# Ultimate Touring Grouppo



## Krafcik (Nov 4, 2005)

What do you guys consider to be the ultimate touring grouppo?

The Fiance has given me permission to have a custom made Curtlo touring frame built. As such, I will need to build up the frame. I am looking for quality parts that will stand the test of time. What will you buy?


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## Scot_Gore (Jan 25, 2002)

*Wwbgd*



Krafcik said:


> What do you guys consider to be the ultimate touring grouppo?
> 
> The Fiance has given me permission to have a custom made Curtlo touring frame built. As such, I will need to build up the frame. I am looking for quality parts that will stand the test of time. What will you buy?


*What Would Bruce Gordon Do*

Check out the builds on his bikes. Quality and stand the test of time are his watch words, to the point that he's using 10 year technology on parts of his bikes.

Scot


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## Cyclesafe (Jan 29, 2006)

XTR RD
11-32 cassette
XT FD
Race Face 46-34-24 crankset

If the frame has fittings for disks:
Ultegra STI shifters
Avid mechanical road  disk brakes (no travel agents required)

If the frame wil not have fittings for disks:
Dura-Ace bar end shifters
Diacompe 287V brake levers
Avid Single digit seven V brakes

Most importantly wheels:
36 hole Ultegra hubs
Dyad Velocity rims
14 guage stainless spokes with brass nipples
Schwalbe Marathon XR tires


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*If it is good enough for Bruce Gordon it ought to be good enough for anyone.*



Krafcik said:


> What do you guys consider to be the ultimate touring grouppo?
> 
> The Fiance has given me permission to have a custom made Curtlo touring frame built. As such, I will need to build up the frame. I am looking for quality parts that will stand the test of time. What will you buy?


http://www.bgcycles.com/


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## biknben (Jan 28, 2004)

I can't brag about my huge _touring_ experience but my ride is not holding me back.

Dura-Ace brifters with XTR changer and cassette. I recently added a compact crank to the mix. My low gear is a 34x34. The 9-speed MTB and road stuff is all interchangeable. It works flawlessly.

My issue has been brakes. I hate cantis. I've got some Paul brakes on the way. Hopefully, these will resolve my braking woes. If starting from scratch, I'd be looking into disk brakes.


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## commutenow (Sep 26, 2004)

*Phil hubs*

I have Mavic rims laced to Phil hubs and they are sweet and they will last forever plus they are pretty.in the sunlight and I actually like to look down and watch the light reflect off of them at times. Sugino crank and Silver barend shifters from Rivensdell, Cane creek levers, Nitto stem and a Brooks saddle. The rest could be many variuos good parts. What Rivendell uses for parts are excellent also.


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## HeronTodd (Feb 7, 2004)

Assuming that you use new, currently available parts, I favor Phil rear hub (135 mm OLD) and bottom bracket, Schmidt SON dynamo hub with E6 or Lumotec headlight, Sugino XD600 crank (comes standard 46-36-26T but I'd change the granny to a 24T), Nitto post (Crystal Fellow or Jaguar), Nitto Pearl stem, Nitto bars (your choice of model), Brooks B17 saddle, Shimano R400 brake levers, Shimano 9-speed bar-end shifters, Stronglight A9 headset, Shimano XT rear derailleur, Shimano LX front derailleur (sized for 46T chainring), Velocity Dyad or Sun CR18 (polished) rims (36H), 14/15 spokes, brass nipples, Velox rim tape, Panaracer Pasela Tourguard tires, Specialized Airlock tubes, Shimano R550 canti brakes, SKS fenders (or Berthoud stainless), Tubus Cargo and Tara racks, Arkel or Carradice panniers (depending on whether you prefer many small compartments or one large compartment), Carradice Camper Longflap saddlebag, and Shimano skewers. What have I missed? 

The XTR rear derailleur doesn't really give you anything over XT except weight savings. Plus, it's titanium mounting bolt is hard to find and expensive to replace if it breaks. Most front derailleurs perform the same. The Deore LX is available in a size that works well with most touring-size chainrings.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

I am curious why most touring setups feature bar end shifters as opposed to STI. Wouldn't the same benefits of not having to move your hands to shift apply to the touring world? I realize bar ends shift flawlessly but am interested in the reasoning behind the touring world using bar ends instead of STI


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

bigrider said:


> I am curious why most touring setups feature bar end shifters as opposed to STI. Wouldn't the same benefits of not having to move your hands to shift apply to the touring world? I realize bar ends shift flawlessly but am interested in the reasoning behind the touring world using bar ends instead of STI


Reliability. If all else fails, reset them to friction.

Brake compatability. Other than discs, there still is nothing that uses the cable pull of a brifter and stops.

TF


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## HeronTodd (Feb 7, 2004)

bigrider said:


> I am curious why most touring setups feature bar end shifters as opposed to STI. Wouldn't the same benefits of not having to move your hands to shift apply to the touring world? I realize bar ends shift flawlessly but am interested in the reasoning behind the touring world using bar ends instead of STI


There are a couple of reasons. First, bar-end shifters are simpler and, thus, more durable. If they were to stop indexing, they can still operate in the friction mode. On tour, simple and durable are best. Second, for loaded touring you typically use smaller chainrings than on most road bikes. This means that you need to use a MTB front derailleur. Unfortunately, these are not compatible with Shimano's STI road shifters. Since bar-end shifters use friction, not indexing, for the front derailleur, there is no issue.


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## KeeponTrekkin (Aug 29, 2002)

*Shimano cassettes*

are interchangeable - e.g. road and mountain, as has been reported. You can use a road cassette with the recommended 46 - 34 - 24 crank and still get a very wide range of gears (even an 11 - 23 gives a very low gear) and you can change for a mountain cassette if the trip demands (24/34 will carry heavy loads up steep slopes.)

It's important to use the mountain (XT or XTR) derailleur because a road derailleur does not have clearance for the larger cogs (>27t as reported by Shimano, >30t as reported by others). Regardless, the XTR shifts very well with road or mountain cassettes.

FWIW Sugino makes a similar crank and you can find some very nice stuff at peterwhitecycles.com.

For lighting and fender ideas, visit Peter White too. The Schmidt dynohub is reported to be nearly bullet proof.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*I'll pick some nits here....and you missed the BB*

I'm down with the Phil hubs all the way but as far as I know most road frames use 130mm OLN, OTOH if you are going to have something custom built.....Still if you need to buy a new 700C wheel in an emergency it will most likely have 130mmOLN. Those generator front hubs are just a bit too exotic for my tastes (I'll run a battery headlamp). 

Sugino Crank. 100% agree. Inner ring change 80% agree, I did it on my Waterford gearie and it doesn't shift quite as well as the 26 did. Still if I am going to run low gears I want the lowest. Don't mess with the BB ;get a Phil.

Nitto Stuff...I don't care about these parts; performance wise anything is fine here-I use Salsa and Thompson.

Brooks B-17. I love my Brooks saddles; I like the Pro, Miss M uses the B-17.

Shimano Brake Levers. Hate 'em; Campy or Crane Creek for me.

Shimano Bar End Shifters. I agree about not using STI on real touring bikes; I use down tube shifters (not the best choice for most folks though). 

Stronglight A9 Headset. Are you kidding? Chris King all the way.

Shimano XT Rear/LX Front derailleurs. I'm using both XT and XTR rears; if you want to spend money get the XTR otherwise the XT works just as well. I use Ultegra Triple front derailleurs-don't really like them but I have them (maybe I'll give the LX a try-thanks for the tip).

Rims-I run Open Pros but I am pulling a BOB and not using panniers. If you really want tough wheels get hold of some 40 or 48h rims mated to your Phil Hubs.

Spokes-Straight 14s for me and nothing but brass nipples ever.

Velox Rim tape-love the stuff.

Tires- Panaracer are ok and I run them sometimes although my favorites are Contis "Top Touring 2000". Tubes-who cares buy what is on sale just don't ever run "lite" or "Superlite".

Shimano Cantis-Heck no, get Paul!

Fenders-Stainless or Honjo.

All those racks and bags-one word BOB (now isn't that easier?).

Shimano Skewers. Dura Ace of course.

Steel bottle cages, SPD pedals, 2 layers of Cinelli cork tape (black on top). Zephal frame fit pump, large Polar waterbottles and a nice brass bell.


BTW great list Todd.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I built mine based on parts I had laying around.

9S Alloy Chorus Ergo levers, RD, FD.
1995ish Dura Ace crankset with salsa 39/48
I am currently using an old 103mm DA bottom bracket. I trashed the PW one in the floods this year. As I type, it is winging it's way back to me after being overhauled to a new condition for $35. A good reason to go Phil.
Tektro brakes for long reach.
Thomson stem, salsa short and shallow bars.
Ultegra hubs 3X32 with salsa rims 14g with brass.
Armadillo tires.
28-38mm tubes. 
It works for me.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Yes but is that really a touring bike.*



bigbill said:


> I built mine based on parts I had laying around.
> 
> 9S Alloy Chorus Ergo levers, RD, FD.
> 1995ish Dura Ace crankset with salsa 39/48
> ...


Or a commuter? You are not running any kind of low gear for loaded touring with that 39t inner ring although I do like your choice of a 48t outer.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

MB1 said:


> Or a commuter? You are not running any kind of low gear for loaded touring with that 39t inner ring although I do like your choice of a 48t outer.


I could put a triple on it but would have to change the bottom bracket. The ergo levers will do a triple and I think that they are more comfortable than STI for long rides. I plan on buying panniers before I leave for Italy next Spring. My LBS has them in stock so I will try them for fit and heel clearance. Rear panniers only since my intention is to use them for running errands and living without a car for 8 months. I might be able to swap out the RD for a medium cage and run a 29. A 39X29 is a nice climbing gear even with a load. I took a ton of pictures yesterday, I will try to post tonight. Nice luau shots.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Not to hijack this thread or anything....*



bigbill said:


> I took a ton of pictures yesterday, I will try to post tonight. Nice luau shots.


...but I miss 2 finger day old poi, kalua pig, lau lau, squid luau, lomi salmon, haupia cake and even a little bit of black dog on the side.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

To keep this thread going, 

I just rode around some pretty hilly stuff for three days and my lowest gear was a 39/34. I never HAD to stand but I also feel like I may carry another 10 pounds of weight on the bike in the future.


Question: What is the worst case gearing ratio you want on your touring rig?


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*A 24X34 is nice to have.*



bigrider said:


> To keep this thread going,
> 
> I just rode around some pretty hilly stuff for three days and my lowest gear was a 39/34. I never HAD to stand but I also feel like I may carry another 10 pounds of weight on the bike in the future.
> 
> ...


If you want to figure it out for yourself this is what you do. (I'm not joking about this BTW).

1) Find out what your walking speed is pushing your fully loaded rig up the steepest hill you can find. (2-3mph likely).

2) Calculate what gear you would have to turn at 60 rpm to just beat that speed riding.

3) Put that gear on your bike. Anything slower than that you can walk just fine. For me anything lower than about 20 gear inches is time to walk but I don't like to walk so I run 24X34.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

MB1 said:


> If you want to figure it out for yourself this is what you do. (I'm not joking about this BTW).
> 
> 1) Find out what your walking speed is pushing your fully loaded rig up the steepest hill you can find. (2-3mph likely).
> 
> ...



According to calculations my 39/34 gives me a speed of 5.5 mph with a cadence of 60 rpms. I can walk pretty fast but not that 5.5 mph fast.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Your problem is that 39 tooth chainring.*



bigrider said:


> According to calculations my 39/34 gives me a speed of 5.5 mph with a cadence of 60 rpms. I can walk pretty fast but not that 5.5 mph fast.


There is a reason touring bicycles are equipped with triples.

I have several 172.5 and 165 Ultegra Triple cranksets gathering dust if it would help.......


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## HeronTodd (Feb 7, 2004)

MB1 said:


> I'm down with the Phil hubs all the way but as far as I know most road frames use 130mm OLN,
> 
> Shimano Brake Levers. Hate 'em; Campy or Crane Creek for me.
> 
> ...


I mentioned the Phil BB. My Heron Wayfarer touring frames use 135 mm spacing as do many other brands. Heck, Co-Motion uses 145 mm!

If you like Cane Creek levers, get the Tektro version. It's the same, minus Cane Creek lizards, for less dough.

I talked about headsets in another thread here recently. Chris King is fine, but it's hard to mess up the headset. It really doesn't need to do much. Stronglights are a much better value. If you have the dough, go ahead and get the King. Same thing with the Phil hubs. They are great, but Shimano XT are nearly as good for far less money.

I chose double-butted spokes because they make the wheel more durable than straight gauge. 

Paul brakes look far better but don't work any better. With cantilever brakes, once you meet a minimum standard of function, performance is mostly a matter of the pad. The geometry of most brakes is more or less the same. The Tektro Oryx cantis are nearly as good as Shimano for a lot less money, but they have a bit more slop. The Avids tend to squeal. The Shimanos work great but aren't as cool as the Pauls.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Well that won't do then, will it?*




HeronTodd said:


> The Shimanos work great but aren't as cool as the Pauls.


and yes, after I posted a reply to your list I noticed that you mentioned the BB.

My Bad 1


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## The Walrus (Apr 2, 2000)

I used to be a firm believer that there was no such thing as too low a gear, but had to change my thinking when I was pulling a Yak on a bike with a 22x32 low. The only way I could get rolling without the front wheel heading skyward was to get out of the saddle and lean way forward over the bars. No problems when I had the lowrider panniers, as the weight offset the torque, but with all the load in the B.o.B., I could have done a wheelie all the way from Frisco down to SLO.


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## ispoke (Feb 28, 2005)

*little comments - too much text...*

Cranks-
Yup, real touring cranks are triple and 110 bcd or similar. A 39 tooth "2nd" ring up front is too big. You've gotta be able to run a 36 or 34 tooth 2nd ring if your tour has any hills.

Cantis-
I've been tinkering a lot with cantilever brakes during the last year. Although I haven't tried every possible adjustment, it does seem that their stopping power has more to do with the brake pad material assuming cable angles are equal. I've been disgusted with the newer Shimano BR-550 cantis using stock pads, but was amazed by the stopping power on some inexpensive Cane Creek cantis (tektro) that use Cool Stop pads. Hmmm... maybe that's not a proper apples-to-apples comparo. But I'm gonna buy some more cool stops to find out.

Wheels-
I had Peter White build me a pair of 36 spoke touring wheels based on the Velocity Dyad rim as mentioned above. Ultegra hub rear, SON dynohub front. Butted spokes & brass. From an engineering standpoint, Velocity's triangular cross section rim is an excellent balance of high strength with reasonable weight. And now I'm hooked on dyno power. IMHO a touring wheelset cannot be "ultimate" if it doesn't have a SON dynohub.

Guess the real issue is, what do you mean by "ultimate"? To me it means functional and long lasting and fits the use. But to others it means a particular brand name, finish, or weight savings. For instance, any triple crank capable of mounting 48/36/24 is better than any xx/39-limited/xx racing crank. And any bar end shifter is better than any type using a true ratchet (brifters or rapidfire), due to simplicity and relatively failure-proof.

Your definition of ultimate may differ...


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## thbirks (Aug 6, 2002)

*my favorite crank for loaded touring*

I love this Shimano LX crank with 48-36-26 rings. The Shimano BR-550 canti's are also a favorite. The best canti I've ever used. Throw in a XTR rear derailer and I'm ready to go.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

thbirks said:


> I love this Shimano LX crank with 48-36-26 rings. The Shimano BR-550 canti's are also a favorite. The best canti I've ever used. Throw in a XTR rear derailer and I'm ready to go.


I'll bite, what makes an XTR better than an XT other than weight? I do agree with shimano for loaded touring. I prefer the feel of ergo levers, but the average bike shop is more likely to have an LX or better RD than a long cage campy. I want to do a tour one day, probably the Olympic Peninsula loop would be my first. Bruce Gordon or Bilenky with all the good stuff.


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## thbirks (Aug 6, 2002)

bigbill said:


> I'll bite, what makes an XTR better than an XT other than weight? .


Not much. The XTR has a nicer upper pulley. The XT is almost as nice and costs a lot less but It's not the ultimate.


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## undies (Oct 13, 2005)

Great thread! I just ordered a Nashbar touring frame so I'm about to undertake my first build. I am pretty ignorant about modern bicycle parts so I'm approaching this as a learning experience. 

Could someone speak to the difference between medium and long cage rear derailleurs? For touring, which is ideal and why? How about low-normal vs. top-normal? I'm a newb so I don't really know what that means.


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## tube_ee (Aug 25, 2003)

undies said:


> Great thread! I just ordered a Nashbar touring frame so I'm about to undertake my first build. I am pretty ignorant about modern bicycle parts so I'm approaching this as a learning experience.
> 
> Could someone speak to the difference between medium and long cage rear derailleurs? For touring, which is ideal and why? How about low-normal vs. top-normal? I'm a newb so I don't really know what that means.


For touring, you want a long cage. The cage length determines the amount of slack that the derailleur can take up. Touring bikes generally use the widest-range cassettes, and run a bigger big ring than most MTBs. Pairing say a 12-34 cassette with a 48/34/22 crankset (I haven't run these through a gear calculator, so I don't know if they're optimal, it's just an example) pretty much requires a long-cage rear, unless you are very careful about not cross-chaining.

High-normal (the usual way) makes more sense to me than low-normal (rapid rise). Here's why. The shift lever and cable exert more force on the derailleur than the spring. If they didn't, you wouldn't be able to shift. I prefer to have the higher force in the same direction as the tougher shift. For a loaded touring bike, that's gonna be downshifts, every time. Imagine trying to grab your biggest cog (usually a 4-tooth jump from #2) on a 100-pound bike on a steep hill. You'll need all the help you can get.

--Shannon


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## Reynolds531 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Intrigued by Rohloff internal gear hub*



Krafcik said:


> What do you guys consider to be the ultimate touring grouppo?
> 
> The Fiance has given me permission to have a custom made Curtlo touring frame built. As such, I will need to build up the frame. I am looking for quality parts that will stand the test of time. What will you buy?


If they are as reliable, low maintainence, and bulletproof as their reputation, I'd go with the Rohlhoff Speedhub. If it never fails it doesn't have to be repairable.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*I too think it is neat....*



Reynolds531 said:


> If they are as reliable, low maintainence, and bulletproof as their reputation, I'd go with the Rohlhoff Speedhub. If it never fails it doesn't have to be repairable.


...but if it does fail there would be no fixing it on the road.

Still I keep thinking about building a bike around one.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

tube_ee said:


> High-normal (the usual way) makes more sense to me than low-normal (rapid rise). Here's why. The shift lever and cable exert more force on the derailleur than the spring. If they didn't, you wouldn't be able to shift. I prefer to have the higher force in the same direction as the tougher shift. For a loaded touring bike, that's gonna be downshifts, every time. Imagine trying to grab your biggest cog (usually a 4-tooth jump from #2) on a 100-pound bike on a steep hill. You'll need all the help you can get.
> 
> --Shannon


While I have never ridden my mountain bike with a heavy load, I have purposely downshifted the RapidRise setup under full load going up a hill and the system shifted just great. Rapid Rise relies on the ramps that are designed into the cassettes to do the shifting and not on brute force like standard rear derailleurs do. This results in crisper shifts and less chances of the chain skipping on the teeth. The only thing I can suggest is to try it and see if it works better for you. Alternatively, you can slow-shift your standard rear derailleur, forcing the chain to use the ramps, and see how that works.


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## damon (Dec 24, 2001)

*Touring where?*

Admittedly, i didn't read every post in detail, but i didn't see any questions about where the touring would take place. Touring along the 101 is much more equipment tolerant than touring the AlCan highway, or say... Syria.

For the former, it doesn't really matter. Run all the exotic bling you want. For the latter, it is about durability and universaly available parts. More undeveloped countries will likely only have 36 hole mtb wheels.

Anyway, just thought i would throw that complication into the mix. I don't think i would ever tour with anything Dura-Ace or XTR, though. Heavy and reliable is fine with me.

-Damon


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