# $5,000 for the fastest bike possible



## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi Guys,

I'm new to these forums, and I've come here in search of wisdom and rescue! About 3 years ago I bought a used 2004 trek equinox 7 for commuting of all things (it was $1000 to ride a bullet so why not), but after hardly riding it, a month ago I entered a 2 day 80k there 80k back charity event with 800 people and finished in 8th both days with all of the decked out road racers! From those racer's reaction to saying that I had never even done 80k at all before that event, I've pretty much realized that cycling (and racing) really is for me, and I've jumped into it with daily riding and even a century under my belt since then. 

That said, I'm a 25 year old trying to start up a life and don't have unlimited funds, but I'm willing to save as much as possible coming into next year (I'm in Canada so my winter will be spent on a trainer anyways) and set a $5,000 budget for the fastest road rocket that my money can purchase. Also, I have a favored local cycling shop that should be able to score me a deal next August when all of their frames can be purchased cheaper, and I am thinking I should stick to that store's brand names for ease of maintenance and warranty. 

The road brands available are: Norco, Kona, Giant, Specialized, Kuota, Marinoni and Felt. Check it out for yourself if you need at www.woodcockcycle.com 
The shops I don't like as much have: Trek, Cannondale, Cervelo, Gary Fisher, Argon 18 and Pinarello. 

What do you guys think of these brands and what will give me the fastest bike within my budget?

I am 6' tall, 150 lbs, and ride in a city with almost all flat riding and often lots of wind. I was thinking Felt AR4 with upped Zipp 101 clinchers for this aero reason, but is that really the fastest setup I can get for my money? Would a more traditional and apparently more aggressive bike geometry be ultimately faster? I also prefer SRAM Red for its value, and intend to up whatever bike I get to this groupo unless not recommended by those wiser than I. It's all about speed for me. 

Things I care about: Winning; every single (non tt as I already have a bike for this) race that I enter I want to be as fast as I possibly can be without sacrifice. I intend to compete with racers that have full on professional level bikes.

Things I don't care about: anything that slows me down. 

Lots of information here, but I'm hoping you guys can point me in the right direction. Hopefully my goals are clear enough! Now hopefully some interested people will have some fun decking me out .


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Forget your fixation on "fastest bike", and spending money to get faster. It's not about the bike, period. There is no meaningful difference in speed between a $2000 and a $5000 bike, in particular in flat terrain. The fastest bike is one that fits you well. Otherwise, invest your time and effort in riding and training, not in finding the "fastest bike".


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## Lou3000 (Aug 25, 2010)

Whether cash can buy speed is being discussed in another topic. I guess for this thread we will just assume that it can and accept all the wind tunnel data that these companies throw out.

Of the brands you list I would think that just two were developed in a wind tunnel, the Felt and the Cervelo. Kuota has an aero road frame, but I know nothing about it. Obviously, my vote goes to the Felts as I have 2 of them.

My only suggestion would be that you go with Zipp 404s (or at least 303s). You see a lot of sprinters in the peleton going with deeper profile rims. And again, if we are taking all the data at face value, the deeper the profile the faster the bike.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Thanks for the response Pirx. I'm totally on board with making me, the engine, the number one and most important investment in terms of time training, nutrition and commitment. 

However, this still leaves me with a bike purchasing decision. I intend to ride the hell out of anything that I purchase no matter what, but I want to know that whatever I purchase is no sacrifice race pedigree material. I just don't want to buy a well fitting comfortable bike only to find out that in the real world it is a super nice cruising Bently and not a race focused Ferrari. I have a race focus only, and the bike doesn't need to be good at anything else. So I guess what I'm specifically asking, is for the money, what direction should I take in buying to get that race focus? What frame, components and wheelsets should I be looking out for? What could you recommend fort this focus? What is most important or least important?


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## Josh8 (Nov 12, 2009)

Trek Speed Concept. More adjustable than the others and according to them the fastest bike out there.


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

how about a 2011 caad10-1 with dura ace groupset. The caad is probably the most well known, popular, best race frame. It can withstand a crash or so and has less chances of cracking if hit the wrong way like CF. The bike goes for around $3-4k, With the rest of the budget, switch out the stock wheels for a set of zipps or something else thats superlight.
Maybe have your cannondale dealer get you a hollowgram SL crank and save some money by letting him keep the SL-K light crank.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Lou3000 said:


> Whether cash can buy speed is being discussed in another topic. I guess for this thread we will just assume that it can and accept all the wind tunnel data that these companies throw out.
> 
> Of the brands you list I would think that just two were developed in a wind tunnel, the Felt and the Cervelo. Kuota has an aero road frame, but I know nothing about it. Obviously, my vote goes to the Felts as I have 2 of them.
> 
> My only suggestion would be that you go with Zipp 404s (or at least 303s). You see a lot of sprinters in the peleton going with deeper profile rims. And again, if we are taking all the data at face value, the deeper the profile the faster the bike.


Great, thanks Lou3000. I'm interested to hear what you think about Felt's AR frames vs their F frames? Have you rode both? What is the real world use like in either of these frames, and what would you recommend? I can see that they are very different frames, so you must have had an opinion to buy either way when you made your decision. 

Also, I like the idea of upping to full on deep profile carbon rims, however they are nearly twice the price and I'm wondering if this is the place to spend the money, or elsewhere? They are nearing $2000 alone on my $5000 budget. I figured I would up to the 101's based on the aero and other things raved about in this review: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLXFxGKo4CY .


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

truth is, there's no useful advice anyone on a forum can give you - at $5k for a bike the differences are subjective preferences. Get the bike that looks nicest to you. By the way, if you're really keen why wait until next August to get it? Buy and ride...


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Whatever you get, I guarantee that you'll be lusting after something completely different in a year. That goes for wheels too. If you're a fast rider, any bike will be fast. $5000 is a lot of money for someone to go out and spend on their first real road racing bike. I'd cut back. You can get something perfectly fine for half that. Plus, the number of miles you spend just riding will far out number the miles you spend racing. 

I'd say go for something sensible (e.g, Neuvation) or used. Join a bike club, do some rides and races, see what everyone else is using and what turns your head. 

I would not limit yourself to a particular bike shop.


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## lucer0 (Apr 13, 2007)

Everyone here is just going to tell you what they're fastest on. Its a very personal thing - the fact that someone else has the Felt and rides the hell out of it is not going to make it the best choice for you. In addition, all of this depends on your racing style. 101s are a great choice if you intend on sitting in and attacking uphill or sprinting at the end, but if you like to break away then deep dish wheels have a very documented advantage. You're a racer - ride everything you can get your hands on and make an informed decision. If you listened to me you'd end up with a custom aluminum frame, SRAM force, and box section tubulars. And you'd probably be miserable.

EDIT: Competitive Cyclist writes GREAT copy and is a reputable store. But in the end they're still trying to sell you things, and will never do a video review where they trash their own merchandise. Not an impartial reviewer.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

TurboDance said:


> So I guess what I'm specifically asking, is for the money, what direction should I take in buying to get that race focus? What frame, components and wheelsets should I be looking out for? What could you recommend fort this focus? What is most important or least important?


I would say first of all that wheels are more important than the frame. A lot depends on the kinds of races you will be doing. Assuming that you live in the US, chances are you are going to do a lot of crits; probably most of your races will be crits. Now, the thing about crits is, more likely than not you _will _crash, and that means you _may_ break your frame. The question then is, are you prepared/can you afford to replace that $3k frame mid-season or not? If you are not made out of money, and it sounds like you aren't, then you might opt for the less expensive frame. Also, in a crit, aerodynamics, and aero wheels tend to be less important. But once again, a bike will not make you win or lose a race. If you buy a bike for road racing that fits you and your style, you can take it as a given that the difference in performance between a bike that costs $2.5k and one that costs twice as much will be negligible.

By the way, as far as good deals go, it looks like the new Felt FC frame is an awesome deal, see here... 

Ultimately, however, my advice is to not try and get your questions answered on an internet forum (not even this one, and not even by me  ); find yourself a competent bike shop, and/or a racing club, and talk to the people there. You're likely to get better advice if you can directly interact with people with proven experience, rather than some unknown guys sitting in front of their computer monitors.


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Used*

Buy a used bike. Everyone knows that the first few thousand miles needed to break in a bike are slow miles. The bearings simply do not spin at their fastest until a bike has some miles on it. Just this past weekend I saw a girl beat everyone at nationals on a used bike that was worth less than one of the disk wheels her competition was running.

Of course everything is about lightweight too. Folks will tell you how important fit is but those are just people that worry about being comfortable. Buy a bike a couple of sizes too small for you, smaller tubes mean lighter weight. 

Finally, the fastest bikes are red. So if you cant find one in the color red be sure to set aside a little of your budgetted money for a paint job.

Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Buy a used bike. Everyone knows that the first few thousand miles needed to break in a bike are slow miles. The bearings simply do not spin at their fastest until a bike has some miles on it. Just this past weekend I saw a girl beat everyone at nationals on a used bike that was worth less than one of the disk wheels her competition was running.
> 
> Of course everything is about lightweight too. Folks will tell you how important fit is but those are just people that worry about being comfortable. Buy a bike a couple of sizes too small for you, smaller tubes mean lighter weight.
> 
> ...


Haha, well this has definitely been the most entertaining reply so far. And thank you for all the input that has already been put on the table, I really am considering all of it! By the way, the fastest colour is orange, nuff said. 

First of all, that's a really interesting concept of buying a frame a couple of sizes too small. What does everyone else think of that? Do riders ride faster on smaller frames so long as they can adapt their positioning to make it work? I'm very novice to all of this, but I remember watching a guy in the Tour de France who I swear had his butt above his head he was riding so low. The aerodynamics looked untouchable. Is this what you accomplish with a smaller frame?


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## m_s (Nov 20, 2007)

TurboDance said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm new to these forums, and I've come here in search of wisdom and rescue! About 3 years ago I bought a used 2004 trek equinox 7 for commuting of all things (it was $1000 to ride a bullet so why not), but after hardly riding it, a month ago I entered a 2 day* 80k there 80k back charity event* with 800 people and finished in* 8th* both days with *all of the decked out road racers*! From those racer's reaction to saying that I had never even done 80k at all before that event, I've pretty much realized that cycling (and racing) really is for me, and I've jumped into it with daily riding and even a century under my belt since then.


Oh brother. Where to start?



> Things I care about: *Winning*; every single (non tt as I already have a bike for this) race that I enter I want to be as fast as I possibly can be without sacrifice. I intend to compete with racers that have full on professional level bikes.
> 
> Things I don't care about: anything that slows me down.


There will always be people way faster than you. Once you accept this, you will find cycling zen.


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## jkuo (Mar 30, 2008)

He said he already had a TT bike. 



Josh8 said:


> Trek Speed Concept. More adjustable than the others and according to them the fastest bike out there.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

TurboDance said:


> Haha, well this has definitely been the most entertaining reply so far. And thank you for all the input that has already been put on the table, I really am considering all of it! By the way, the fastest colour is orange, nuff said.
> 
> First of all, that's a really interesting concept of buying a frame a couple of sizes too small. What does everyone else think of that? Do riders ride faster on smaller frames so long as they can adapt their positioning to make it work? I'm very novice to all of this, but I remember watching a guy in the Tour de France who I swear had his butt above his head he was riding so low. The aerodynamics looked untouchable. Is this what you accomplish with a smaller frame?


you need to turn on the sarcasm indicator button for the forum...


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Finally, the fastest bikes are red. So if you cant find one in the color red be sure to set aside a little of your budgetted money for a paint job.


My bike is black, but it has red stripes. Does that work?


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## Lou3000 (Aug 25, 2010)

Haha, you are getting a pretty crazy array of responses, but at $5k, you start reaching the realm of dream bikes. Everyone has their own dream. But, I think you asked a very specific question. Of the brands listed, which is the fastest. Without knowing much about the motor, the only real variables for speed are, as I said, aerodynamics and weight.

I have ridden both an F series and an AR series. I own a 2011 F5 and a 2011 B16 (which is very similar to the AR but with different geometry).

Here is my take. Both the F and the AR are great bikes (I think superdave said his perfect bike was an AR), and the differences are subtle. In the end I chose the F because the geometry fit right, the frame seemed more comfortable over the rough stuff and the new BB30 seemed stiffer. Were these differences real or imagined? I don't know. Maybe I just couldn't explain the difference between my B16 and the AR5 to my wife, they look an awful lot alike to someone who doesn't ride.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

m_s said:


> There will always be way faster than you. Once you accept this, you will find cycling zen.


Isn't that the truth? A few years back I had a carbon wonder bike (in the earlier days of carbon wonder bikes) and had my arse handed to me 2x in events by guys on bikes I wouldn't even ride to work & back. I then realized what I had known all along - it's *not* about the bike. It's about the engine. You can't buy speed. You might be able to buy less than one mph but the good guys will go whizzing past doing 6-10mph more. And that will happen to the OP too and at that point, unless he has found Zen, he'll be looking for a faster bike.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Pirx said:


> I would say first of all that wheels are more important than the frame. A lot depends on the kinds of races you will be doing. Assuming that you live in the US, chances are you are going to do a lot of crits; probably most of your races will be crits. Now, the thing about crits is, more likely than not you _will _crash, and that means you _may_ break your frame. The question then is, are you prepared/can you afford to replace that $3k frame mid-season or not? If you are not made out of money, and it sounds like you aren't, then you might opt for the less expensive frame. Also, in a crit, aerodynamics, and aero wheels tend to be less important. But once again, a bike will not make you win or lose a race. If you buy a bike for road racing that fits you and your style, you can take it as a given that the difference in performance between a bike that costs $2.5k and one that costs twice as much will be negligible.
> 
> By the way, as far as good deals go, it looks like the new Felt FC frame is an awesome deal, see here...
> 
> ...


Thanks again for replying. The reason I've honed in on this one bike shop is just for that reason: that they are very competent people and seem to have the strongest racing team in my area. I'm going to check out their advice, attempt to go on rides with other strong riders (although the season is over since I live in Canada) and see where that leads me. However, I know that it's just a single bike shop of product and recommendations and there is a big wide world out there, which is why I've gone to ask the internet at large as well. 

Really interesting comment in that the _wheels_ may be my most important investment. Especially when talking about a frame potentially breaking in a crash during a crit, which I do know there are many of in my area. What wheels would be mostly highly recommended here? 

Also, you recommended the F series frame over AR. I'm still confused as to whether their aero and their standard geometry frame is their gold performer. I haven't checked out the link yet, but maybe this is another route I can take if I go Felt. I'm really stuck as to why I should choose either direction though in terms of real world race performance. Why would Felt have two lines of bikes apparently poised against each other yet not explain to the customer what appears to be significant differences. If the AR sprints like an F series as they say, why go for the F series?


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## Lou3000 (Aug 25, 2010)

You can't buy speed, but you can certainly buy guilt/motivation.

When I think about how much I paid for my bikes, I throw on my cycling shoes and go for a ride.


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## nealric (Jul 5, 2007)

At that price point, I would be building the bike up from the frame so I could choose every component.


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## dr4cats (Aug 8, 2010)

One concern and only one single concern: FIT. Get on a bike that fits you regardless of price. If the bike is fitted well, you can win (maybe). The $5000 bike that is not a perfect fit will not make you a winner. A $2000 bike that fits will potentially make you a winner.

$5000 for a beginner's bike is simply outrageous. You could possibly start racing and realized that you might not be as good as you think. Understand that this is a VERY humbling sport and it will humiliate you when you expect it the least, especially in a race. And then you have to face the really talented riders. Those who have the DNA to ride. They'll ride their out of true wheeled bikes and smoke you like you were parked.

Get a cheap light bike and train hard. When you win on your cheap bike, you might then feel proud and consider that high priced race machine.

Remember that there is a lot of talent out there. I rode with a guy a month ago, well into his fifties and on a really cheap bike with aero bars. This guy could climb really steep hills without shifting and his forearms never left the aero bars; I am a climber and he simply smoked me....I was then glad that I do not ride a $5000 bike.

Heart, lungs and legs is what makes you really race winning fast (with a certain genetic disposition); not the $5000 bike.


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## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

Well you do realize this was a charity event, not a race, and there was a 10 year old who completed it in both directions. That is like saying you won at mowing the lawn, or some other entirely non competitive thing. Also a completely shaved overweight middle aged man with a $10,000 bike wearing some team kit is not a road racer. This is what the french call a "poseur"; he is a fool and should generally be avoided at all costs.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

TurboDance said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I've pretty much realized that cycling (and racing) really is for me . . . .


I know I'm not answering your question, but if you buy a decent used bike, you can train on it and try some racing on it. That way you can refine your understanding of what you want from a bike (so you'll be better able to make your choice when there's more money involved), develop a better sense of your position (ditto) and even find out whether you actually like racing. And then you can sell it and probably not take too much of a loss, or keep it around for your foul-weather bike.

I bought a used Cannondale frame when I started racing, and I paid for a good fitting session after I'd been riding it for a couple of months. I think I was much better informed about my preferences when I bought a new bike the next year (although even then, it really informed only my first cut, and I wouldn't claim that I was able to identify any performance-based advantage or disadvantage between the three bikes I was ultimately deciding between). 

Even though that Cannondale is now pretty old, I still use it as a foul-weather bike, and I even raced it in two wet, nasty races this year; it held up fine against "professional level bikes" (even many of the ones ridden by professional racers).


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

m_s said:


> Oh brother. Where to start?
> 
> 
> There will always be way faster than you. Once you accept this, you will find cycling zen.


Alright point taken =). I'm not such hot %$#! just because I did well in a charity event. However, a lot of people took notice and a few of the cat 3/4 racing regulars said that my pace on a first time 80k attempt demonstrates real potential. So, of course I'm stoked and I want to realize it. 

I'm pretty pumped to find cycling zen as well. For me, I had to quit getting better at snowboarding because of a dislocating shoulder that eventually made me quit the sport, so now that I've got something new to apply myself to I am pretty happy. 

It seems like a rewarding sport without huge risks of 40 foot falls, so I'm excited to enjoy the experience of getting better and better.


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

http://www.feltbicycles.com/USA/2011/Road/F-Series/F3.aspx
Felt F3 - Sram Red Groupset, Sram S30 Race Wheels ($1000 wheels), 14.85 lbs. $5000

Get this!


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

TurboDance said:


> It seems like a rewarding sport without huge risks of 40 foot falls, so I'm excited to enjoy the experience of getting better and better.


I'm not a snowboarder, but I have a lot of experience skiing gnarly terrain on alpine and randonee gear, and I've been injured more frequently and gruesomely racing bikes than skiing (by far). While I'm pretty sure that the (or at least my) odds of death are higher for backcountry skiing in any sort of avy terrain than for bike racing, I think the odds of injuries at the "this sucks" level (e.g., nasty bruising and scrapes and ROM limiters) are higher in cycling, and the odds of "this *really* sucks" injuries (e.g., broken collarbone) are probably about the same (vs. being a very aggressive skier).


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## AtlantaR6 (Sep 9, 2010)

dcl10 said:


> Also a completely shaved 25 year old man with a $5,000 bike wearing some team kit is not a road racer.


Fixed


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Okay guys, I'm going to try to reply to a bunch of points raised at once. 

First of all, I'm aware it was a charity ride. Yayayayaya =). I should have probably mentioned anyways though, that the cat 3/4 guys who just beat me were raving about the performance, and that their input along with my enjoyment for riding is what has made me decide to invest in racing equipment. But it doesn't really matter how fast I actually am, let's get back on track to what I should be looking for. 

One thing that hasn't really been properly discussed, is that I am already fully committed to taking this on as a lifetime sport. That sounds like a pretty big statement, but as far as my orthopedic surgeon is concerned, there aren't many other sports out there that he can recommend I go all out on besides cycling and running. This is due to the 31 shoulder dislocations I've experienced in 'arm moving sports' ;D. Oh, it should be mentioned that my shoulder survived a 2 car ricochet crash at 30 km/h that had me out of commission for the rest of the season last year. I'm thinking that while it has dislocated a lot, that the type of motion to put it out is pretty specific and doesn't ever seem to occur with any cycling crash I've ever had. Post surgery that I'll be having in November I will train as hard as I can (cause that's the kind of guy I am) towards an eventual entry in competition for 2012. I want to give myself ample time to heal, and I'll be riding solo or on my trainer towards really improving my fitness during that time. 

On to deciding to invest $5,000. This is a target I decided on because it's number that would allow me to purchase the most race focused components while still being something I can afford saving towards next year. It's a lot, but like I said, I'm already committed to the sport. However, buying used also might be a really strong option for value. The problem is that once I look for a used bike, I am pretty much left with fitting myself and I have no experience doing that. I am kind of left with the problem of shooting in the dark on whether the bike really works for me, rather than getting set up on new bikes in a trainer at my local shop and experiment with frame sizing alongside the experts there. 

These responses are all really good, and I just can't seem to win! One thing that would be helpful for suggestions is component selection. I'm starting to get nealric's and Pirx's suggestion of building from the frame up since obviously the pre-built bikes are built around selling their best frames above all, not necessarily best all around package. I've been glued to my computer looking at different stuff and the selection is _endless_ when looking for different wheelsets, handlebars etc etc etc. Even if somebody could give me a top 3 wheelset group to look at in the 1,000-1,500 range that would be excellent. I think the rest of it I can probably get recommended from the local shops. 

So onto wheels! What are the 3-5 best wheelsets I should be considering based on today's options and my relative budget and what frame to compliment it from the brands I listed? 

Luckily time is on my side, as I can neither ride this new bike until after post recovery of my surgery or afford it until some big commission cheques come in later =). 

Now I'm going to make a new post to dedicate to the rest of the questions I have. I fear this post has turned long enough that some people won't get to the end, and I want your suggestions!


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

If you didn't have time to read that first post, on to a quick list of what I think you guys can help me with for suggestions!

So far I have zipp 404's or 303's for wheels - what else is worth comparing? What should I be looking for? Is this really the most important component for my bike? I'll be willing to invest if it is. 

Felt FC frame has now been suggested twice, as the F3 uses this frame as well. It sounds like it's a screaming deal as far as that dedicated post was concerned. I also have a Cannondale 2011 caad10-1, but there are no dealers in my area that I can find =(. Anyone got any other suggestions for frames that may really stand out for me and I should be looking at?


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

Wheel to consider:

Dura Ace 50mm Deep Dish Carbon Tubulars


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> So onto wheels! What are the 3-5 best wheelsets I should be considering !


Hahahahahaha, I sense WWIII coming up. I'll make the popcorn. This should be (even more) fun.

Edit - *Lightweights* all the way baby!!

https://3-athlon.com/catalog/Lightweight-Obermayer-G3-wheelset-p-592.html


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> So onto wheels! What are the 3-5 best wheelsets I should be considering based on today's options and my relative budget and what frame to compliment it from the brands I listed?


You are crazy if you think a high end carbon wheelset will be durable enough for training as well as racing. You'll need at least 2 wheelsets IMO. If you train on your race wheels you'll soon be buying another wheelset.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

take 250$/month and hire a dang coach if you want to be faster...there is no bike that is faster than another bike. Its your legs that make speed happen. sorry.
a couple Cat. 2 teammates of mine had leader bikes frames and neuvation wheels and they crushed most Cat. 3 fields this past year. why? each had a coach who knew their goals and target races.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

bahueh said:


> take 250$/month and hire a dang coach if you want to be faster...there is no bike that is faster than another bike. Its your legs that make speed happen. sorry.


yup...if you aren't sponsored and on a budget just get a decent AL frame that is relatively lightweight and that you won't cry over if you break it. Make sure it has a decent component set, but nothing top of the line really needed. If you are gonna race then get a beefy set of wheels to train on and a lightweight set to race on. Not sure you need high end carbon wheels to start out. There are plenty of nice wheels out there you could race on (and not cry if they break) for a lot less than Zipps/Reynolds and the like.


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## Safeway (May 14, 2007)

Here is another vote for passing on carbon fiber until you are CAT 4/3.

The highlights of CAT 5 races are usually not the sprint finishes or daring tactics, but the spectacular crashes. Even if you don't do anything stupid, the guy next to you certainly will. You might get bombed into a curb when some guy breaks your line. That'd kill a carbon wheel and possibly more.

I think the CAAD10 suggestion is good. But I'd also look for other high end aluminum-carbon hybrids like some of the BMC frames. Even titanium would work. Once you are sponsored and get a discount on products, then go carbon.

I'd stay away from ultra-high-end carbon that you cannot afford to replace _instantly_.


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## Safeway (May 14, 2007)

However, if you can find a crazy deal, jump on it.

I found a top-end carbon frame with full SRAM Red for $1200. Shipped. It was a back-up bike for a top domestic professional team. No wheels, but you cannot go wrong paying $1200 for a $3000 frame with $2400 components and $500+ in cockpit carbon.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

TurboDance said:


> I'm thinking that while it has dislocated a lot, that the type of motion to put it out is pretty specific and doesn't ever seem to occur with any cycling crash I've ever had.


Slightly off-topic, but I could mention that I separated my shoulder (Type II/III ACL) in a bike crash last year. All I can say is, I would take just about any broken bone, let alone a simple dislocation, over this. Those ligaments are irrepairably gone, so that shoulder is not fixable...


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## Safeway (May 14, 2007)

Pirx said:


> Slightly off-topic, but I could mention that I separated my shoulder (Type II/III ACL) in a bike crash last year. All I can say is, I would take just about any broken bone, let alone a simple dislocation, over this. Those ligaments are irrepairably gone, so that shoulder is not fixable...


I have had some nasty bruising and some minor crash damage due to the moronic actions of inexperienced cyclists. I am young - very young - junior division young - but I have been riding road bikes since the age of 6. I know how to handle a bike, but I cannot avoid all accidents.


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## Safeway (May 14, 2007)

If you want to be truly elite and awesome - you can get a Di2 bike for exactly $5000.


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

Safeway said:


> If you want to be truly elite and awesome - you can get a Di2 bike for exactly $5000.


which bike


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Safeway said:


> you cannot go wrong paying $1200 for a $3000 frame with $2400 components and $500+ in cockpit carbon.


Sure you can go wrong: if it does not fit you, it's not a deal. An experienced rider can fit himself but a new rider doesn't know what his fit should be. 

The OP would do better to buy a decent $2500 bike and spend the rest on coaching. A super fancy bike does not make you any faster. I can say that from experience- I have a really nice bike that exceeds the OP's price range and gets complements from other racers, but I still suck. I'd be getting coached if I didn't have complicated personal issues with it.

Cycling is not safe from shoulder injuries. A number of the guys I train with have broken collarbones and/or had shoulder separations due to training and racing crashes.


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## Safeway (May 14, 2007)

skyliner1004 said:


> which bike


Laugh


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## Safeway (May 14, 2007)

ericm979 said:


> Sure you can go wrong: if it does not fit you, it's not a deal. An experienced rider can fit himself but a new rider doesn't know what his fit should be.
> 
> The OP would do better to buy a decent $2500 bike and spend the rest on coaching. A super fancy bike does not make you any faster. I can say that from experience- I have a really nice bike that exceeds the OP's price range and gets complements from other racers, but I still suck. I'd be getting coached if I didn't have complicated personal issues with it.
> 
> Cycling is not safe from shoulder injuries. A number of the guys I train with have broken collarbones and/or had shoulder separations due to training and racing crashes.


No, you can't go wrong. Wrong fit, maybe - but RIGHT when you resell it for a tidy profit and buy something that fits you a bit better.


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## poff (Jul 21, 2007)

$5K is not enough to get a set of Lightweight wheels these days. Sad....


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

bahueh said:


> take 250$/month and hire a dang coach if you want to be faster...there is no bike that is faster than another bike. Its your legs that make speed happen. sorry.
> a couple Cat. 2 teammates of mine had leader bikes frames and neuvation wheels and they crushed most Cat. 3 fields this past year. why? each had a coach who knew their goals and target races.


Beat me to it by 3 hours.

$2000 on a bike, $3000 on a coach.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Slightly over your budget but since you're the future of pro cycling, you might as well invest in the fastest/lightest equipment available:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=226916

Don't listen to the nay sayers here. Who needs a coach or training? It's all about the bike.


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## Sharknose (Aug 9, 2010)

Buy a used CAAD9 Cannondale with Ultegra. Buy two sets of bombproof wheels and one set of nice wheels (not great, just nice). Wrap duct tape along the length of the down tube and write "Bad Mother F***er" on it with a sharpie. If you give a s**t about what anyone thinks about your bike, go ride 20 miles, hard. Repeat until the duct tape is accurate.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

skyliner1004 said:


> Wheel to consider:
> 
> Dura Ace 50mm Deep Dish Carbon Tubulars


So either Zipp 303, 404 or these? 

By the way, why tubular? What is the real advantage over clinchers? In 2 months of riding I have already experienced 5 flats. Now I think I'm probably ridiculously unlucky, but that sounds like a complete ***** to repair them if they go no matter how frequent.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> So either Zipp 303, 404 or these?
> 
> By the way, why tubular? What is the real advantage over clinchers? In 2 months of riding I have already experienced 5 flats. Now I think I'm probably ridiculously unlucky, but that sounds like a complete ***** to repair them if they go no matter how frequent.


If you don't know already you have no business buying Zipps. Sorry...you are asking the wrong questions. You don't need more expensive gear to be fast.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Safeway said:


> Here is another vote for passing on carbon fiber until you are CAT 4/3.
> 
> The highlights of CAT 5 races are usually not the sprint finishes or daring tactics, but the spectacular crashes. Even if you don't do anything stupid, the guy next to you certainly will. You might get bombed into a curb when some guy breaks your line. That'd kill a carbon wheel and possibly more.
> 
> ...


This is good advice. However, what kind of aluminum frame would you suggest then? I see that the Zipp 101 are aluminum and should be fairly bomb proof while still very aerodynamically quick because of the shaping technology Zipp uses. 

I'm thinking that a medium end carbon frame like the FC at $1500 would be alright to replace within my budget. But I am also thinking, these guys are warning me like crazy that my bike is going to blow in 3 races, but how likely is that really to happen?


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

*It's not only about the bike...*

money spent on a good aero skinsuit will go a long way toward victory.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

ph0enix said:


> Slightly over your budget but since you're the future of pro cycling, you might as well invest in the fastest/lightest equipment available:
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=226916
> 
> Don't listen to the nay sayers here. Who needs a coach or training? It's all about the bike.


I mean who doesn't want to be the future of pro cycling? Unless you're riding a bike that is illegal for pro's, then I guess you really can't fit the bill =P. 

Personally I just plan on being as fast as I can be. Dedicating the time is a joy for me thus far, and feeling the results is really rewarding. Put it this way, I'm not concerned about the engine because improving myself is the reason I'm here. I care about the bike because it's the tool in which the rider may best utilize his craft.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> You are crazy if you think a high end carbon wheelset will be durable enough for training as well as racing. You'll need at least 2 wheelsets IMO. If you train on your race wheels you'll soon be buying another wheelset.


Well I wasn't sure! Like I said, I'm just a kid with a dream and a commitment. Would you recommend a carbon plus an aluminum set then? Would that really make such a huge difference? Two sets is so expensive! Maybe that is worth it? I'm definitely open to be convinced. I guess the reason I'm into the Zipp 101's is that the aero qualities of a regular carbon deep dish can be found within a smartly shaped set of aluminum wheels and could act as an every day set. Maybe this is just marketing. Does anyone have any experience with these rims?


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Pirx said:


> Slightly off-topic, but I could mention that I separated my shoulder (Type II/III ACL) in a bike crash last year. All I can say is, I would take just about any broken bone, let alone a simple dislocation, over this. Those ligaments are irrepairably gone, so that shoulder is not fixable...


Well.. all I can say is that is not good at all. By the way, it's the separation that is simple, not the dislocation. Imagine if your shoulder is separated and never came back... for hours your joint is completely ripped away: that is a dislocation. 

This worries me, but I intend to go on the recommendation of the surgeon. I will be doing full physio for all of next year while not entering any races until the 2012 season. If I am not ready to take a big fall until then, then I won't race. But either way, I really just want to ride as fast as possible, even if it means only competing in TT events. This is really one of the last sports I am able to really pursue at this point and I intend to put all of my pent up energy into it.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> If you don't know already you have no business buying Zipps. Sorry...you are asking the wrong questions. You don't need more expensive gear to be fast.


I just want to purchase something that I can ride for a long time without feeling like I need to upgrade it. I just want to upgrade my ability and I don't like the idea that I'm being held back. What question should I ask to address this more precisely? 

I gave a $5000 budget, something I am comfortable investing because I am serious about this, and who cares how fast I am? 

The only thing I care about is getting better, and finding a really rewarding platform to do it on. What is so wrong with that, and why is that none of my business? 

All I want to find out, is what bike components would be best to consider at this price range. Thanks for your input anyways, I just don't think you understood my post.


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## ghost6 (Sep 4, 2009)

Pirx said:


> Forget your fixation on "fastest bike", and spending money to get faster. It's not about the bike, period. There is no meaningful difference in speed between a $2000 and a $5000 bike, in particular in flat terrain. The fastest bike is one that fits you well. Otherwise, invest your time and effort in riding and training, not in finding the "fastest bike".


It's not about the bike, period? Next group ride, I wanna see how you do on a Men's Roadmaster Mountain Sport All-Terrain bike. (You can get it at Walmart for $74.)


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## Scott B (Dec 1, 2004)

Seriously? $5000 is nuts. Buy a $1500-2000 rig and ride a lot. Keep the other money for race fees, spare wheels, replacement parts, maybe a coach. As has been said 19 times already, a bike won't make you fast. Within reason (riders on real road bikes) it's the engine that matters. 

If I was going to blow this amount of cash I would buy a custom steel frame that fit well and would last 20 years. Fit matters a lot more then magic materials. Maybe a Speedvagen (you don't want to wait 5+ years for a Vanilla) or a similar race ready custom.


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## Alex_C (Aug 21, 2006)

*Spend $1999!*

Sharknose hit it on the head. Love the "bad mother Fu€¥er" quote on the frame. That would scare most newbies to death!

Spend at most $2500. Try for $1,999. 

In any shop that will get you a bike that is fast enough to win any cat 3 race (provided you have the legs and lungs). 

The biggest issue is making it through cat 5/4 without being crashed out. Save your money for a second wheel set and some coaching. Later think about a back up bike.

Win some races. Eat right. Manage your training and keep a log. Win more.

Relish in the fact that you won on a sub $2k bike. Spend money on champagne.

Train with people faster than you.

Repeat.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Why not look outside the usual Trek crap and try something on the wild side like Orbea Opal Ultrega that cost about $3,969 and weighs about 16.2 pounds. Or Cyfac Nerv DS2 at 15.08 pounds that cost about $2400. 

Keep this in mind young wantabe racer, that when you race your chances of having an accident increase, meaning your chance of destroying a bike a pretty darn good. Do you want to destroy a $5,000 bike? or would you feel more comfortable financially if a under $3,000 bike was lost? Or perhaps you can afford to pay another $5k?


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

$4000 will get you high end carbon fiber and SRAM RED. Go for that! Its what the pros ride. seriously. 

Check out the Supersix High Mod 2 Red for about $4000 with $1000 left over + the amount you can trade stock wheels for an upgraded set of lightweight wheels or a 2nd set of racing wheels. Cannondale has a crash replacement warranty incase u ever crack your frame in a crash so dont worry too much about that. its a deep discount. 

i've given you a few options already in this thread, what bikes are you considering?


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## kevinabutler (Jul 27, 2009)

I completely agree with the notion that beginning in racing that a frame should be replaceable/disposable without undue loss or burden. Spend the money on Red, but for the frame, a < $1000 alu/carbon frame will be fine. I've completely destroyed several wheels in wrecks and tweaked several others pretty good. Anything part that you couldn't walk into the shop and replace on a Monday without hardship shouldn't be on your race bike on Saturday/Sunday. I've seen too many shattered bikes to believe otherwise. A former teammate walked away from the sport after his bike was destroyed in a crash. My race bike is Chorus 10 and it is a dream - but the frame is steel and the race wheels are $300 handbuilt sewups not glitzy carbon. Decidedly old school. It is 3 pounds heavier than my carbon bike, but it fits so perfectly and rides so smoothly that I'm not at any disadvantage in a crit. I've raced aluminum, steel and carbon and though the carbon bike corners like crazy and feels "fast", the custom steel bike is my ride of choice nearly every race. While I might destroy wheels, the likelihood of a catastrophic frame issue is low and could probably be repaired.

When beginning in racing, disposable is simply the operative word. Fast comes from you and your legs. If the bike fits, get a spare set of wheels and go out and race. Save the dream bike/wheels for that big moment when you get your upgrade. Most of all, have fun.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Retro Grouch said:


> money spent on a good aero skinsuit will go a long way toward victory.


I believe there is something to be said for training here too . However, the aero + cool factor qualities are unsurpassed, and lance wouldn't take a lance to this contender in a dogfight.


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## Hand/of/Midas (Apr 15, 2008)

Two bikes. Seriously.

One 2.5k Road bike.

One 2k CX bike for training/winter racing.

Seriously Seriously Seriously. i do 90% of my training miles on a CX bike. We have guys at our shop who ride centuries in the snow with studs for training. if you want to be FAST in the ON SEASON you have to train in the OFF SEASON.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

If you want speed you can buy, I'm sure you can find a dealer somewhere.


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## SilentAssassin (Jul 29, 2010)

...............................dp


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## mtnbikecrazy55 (Apr 9, 2009)

This would be perfectly fast and light, as well as leaving you some money for other stuff


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## mtnbikecrazy55 (Apr 9, 2009)

mtnbikecrazy55 said:


> This would be perfectly fast and light, as well as leaving you some money for other stuff


wow, im dumb i forgot the link... its late:mad2: 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...23238&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_2646wt_1598
:thumbsup:


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Make sure you spend some money on good padded shorts...

...because you _are_ going to get your ass kicked.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

this fuster-cluck is quite entertaining! A majority of the responses are overflowing with sarcasm (yet they contain a lot of good advice) but the OP doesn't know enough about this topic to know where to set his sarcasm/BS filter. Funny as hell, but ......

To the OP: IMO, get a $2k bike (used is a great idea) and spend the remainder on coaching and education. Regardless of your enthusiasm and exuberance, your training will likely be ineffective (or at least MUCH less effective than it could be) without the guidance of an experienced coach. Ignorance is your enemy -- how to select a bike, how to eat, how to train, etc., all require taking time to educate yourself. *Right now, you have two things in abundance: enthusiasm and ignorance*. One of them needs to be eliminated. A mentor or coach who has experience and can steer you through the process will go a long way toward doing that.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

TurboDance said:


> I mean who doesn't want to be the future of pro cycling? Unless you're riding a bike that is illegal for pro's, then I guess you really can't fit the bill =P.
> 
> Personally I just plan on being as fast as I can be. Dedicating the time is a joy for me thus far, and feeling the results is really rewarding. Put it this way, I'm not concerned about the engine because improving myself is the reason I'm here. I care about the bike because it's the tool in which the rider may best utilize his craft.


You didn't say the bike had to be UCI legal. You asked for the "fastest possible" 

All good - except that you seem to have it backwards. Get an entry level bike that's raceable and start training. Do a couple of CAT5 races and see how you fare up. If you're as good as you say you are, you'll have sponsors before you know it and then you won't have to pay for a high end bike yourself. Otherwise, your ego will get crushed on the first try but at least you'll still have most of the 5K in your pocket which you can share with me


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## robm90 (Aug 5, 2010)

I bought a used bike for less than 2k and am going to buy a power measuring device to train for the needed times in the appropriate zones. I think this will take me further than a better bike and wheels. I don't need those yet, I need a lot of proper training. My neighbor has a 1k bike and is faster than I am due to his years of triathlon training. He has shown me, its not the bike, its the motor.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> I just want to purchase something that I can ride for a long time without feeling like I need to upgrade it. I just want to upgrade my ability and I don't like the idea that I'm being held back. What question should I ask to address this more precisely?


Sorry...I'm kinda being a smart ass, but racing bikes and components really aren't investments. Pros ride those $5000 wheels because they are lighter, but most of them don't have to pay for the wheels themselves or when they get broken. High price does not always mean more durable. If you are just starting out racing you will crash. Do you want to replace a $500 frame or a $2000 dollar one? Can you afford another $2000 wheelset when someone knocks you into the curb and ruins them?

You are not at the level of racing where either frame is going to give you any advantage over anyone else in the field. Unless you have unlimited money, get a decent bike, but don't go nuts. Spend the money on coaching and things that will make you faster on any bike.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

mtnbikecrazy55 said:


> wow, im dumb i forgot the link... its late:mad2:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...23238&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_2646wt_1598
> :thumbsup:


Wow, why is this so cheap? By the way, is it really a good idea to buy an unfitted bike off of ebay and hope that it works properly with my body? Do a lot of guys do this? Is it recommended? 

Also, if you end up with an exotic brand name bike that there are no parts for in the city if something goes wrong, does this become an issue as well?

I can totally see the savings here, so maybe it's a bold and smart way of shopping.


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## PlasticMotif (Aug 1, 2006)

TurboDance said:


> Wow, why is this so cheap? By the way, is it really a good idea to buy an unfitted bike off of ebay and hope that it works properly with my body? Do a lot of guys do this? Is it recommended?
> 
> Also, if you end up with an exotic brand name bike that there are no parts for in the city if something goes wrong, does this become an issue as well?
> 
> I can totally see the savings here, so maybe it's a bold and smart way of shopping.


If you know your measurements and can get accurate geometry. I still don't recommend it.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> Wow, why is this so cheap?
> By the way, is it really a good idea to buy an unfitted bike off of ebay and hope that it works properly with my body?
> Do a lot of guys do this?
> Is it recommended?
> Also, if you end up with an exotic brand name bike that there are no parts for in the city if something goes wrong, does this become an issue as well?


Never heard of the brand before. Might be good, might be crap.
No.
People that know exactly what they need buy online. You shouldn't.
No.
Yes.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

JustTooBig said:


> this fuster-cluck is quite entertaining! A majority of the responses are overflowing with sarcasm (yet they contain a lot of good advice) but the OP doesn't know enough about this topic to know where to set his sarcasm/BS filter. Funny as hell, but ......
> 
> To the OP: IMO, get a $2k bike (used is a great idea) and spend the remainder on coaching and education. Regardless of your enthusiasm and exuberance, your training will likely be ineffective (or at least MUCH less effective than it could be) without the guidance of an experienced coach. Ignorance is your enemy -- how to select a bike, how to eat, how to train, etc., all require taking time to educate yourself. *Right now, you have two things in abundance: enthusiasm and ignorance*. One of them needs to be eliminated. A mentor or coach who has experience and can steer you through the process will go a long way toward doing that.


You know what man your just a weirdo...your the only one here who has made perfectly good sense, what the heck have you been smoking? If I had followed your advice back in the day I might have gone beyond a cat 3 racer, of course then I would have needed rich parents so I wouldn't had to work full time but that's beside the point. Anyway, damn you!!


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

This thread is too funny. 

OP - do yourself a favor and spend $200 of your 5k on a bike fitting. This will be a few hours with a trained professional and you will walk away with a starting point for what your "ideal" fit is. Then do yourself a favor and do a bit of research (you seem to enjoy it) on how bike geometry changes effect fit (this forum is a great source). Then you will be armed with the knowledge to make an informed decision around fit and whether or not a new or used bike will fit you within reason. 

Then go spend 2-2.5k of your hard earned money on a bike with at least 2 sets of wheels (lighter weight race day wheels and a bombproof training/everyday set). if you go new, something like the Nuevation F100 with Rival would be nice. The most critical piece in this besides a bike that fits is a bike and equipment you can afford to replace when it wears out or gets damaged. Just to give you an idea, early summer was at a Cat 5 race where someone mid-pack came across the line in the field sprint and sat up with his hands over his head. He caused a 10 person pile-up that broke several wheels and cost one guy a brand new frame (cracked the top tube in half). There was nothing any of those guys could do to avoid it and at minimum, they were looking at a few hundred to thousands of dollars to replace the damaged gear. A race rig should be bare bones, easy to maintain and replace damaged parts on, and affordable. 

Spend the remaining money on a coach and training, because ultimately, it is all about the engine. I've seen plenty of guys on $1500 Performance Scattante alu road bikes hang mid-pack or better with guys on 5k bikes at a number of crits.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Never heard of the brand before. Might be good, might be crap.



Probably crap:
http://www.carbonroadbikebicyclecycling.com/catalog/1


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ph0enix said:


> Probably crap:
> http://www.carbonroadbikebicyclecycling.com/catalog/1


Crap? It can't be any worse then all the other CF frames made in China that represents 98% maybe 99% of the manufactures. So in that regard it's probably a good deal. I think BikesDirect has Motebecanes for that price too if not less, in fact they have a Kestrel Evoke on sale for $1700; .http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/kestrel/evoke_sl_09.htm


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Alright, so I think I can see from a lot of responses that the overall cost of the bike doesn't need to be $5,000 to be race worthy, that is definitely clear enough. That and a good coach is a good investment. I'm definitely going to take a look around, and join some spin classes this winter to learn to train indoors.

I still have some mixed direction on what I should do for buying a bike though. Here are my questions:

1. I have had a response saying that used bikes spin faster than new ones because everything is broken in. Any validity to this? To be honest, I probably don't care that much since I will end up riding anything I buy for a full year before I can race it anyways. I have to wait this time to recover from surgery, so I'll just be training on it. 

2. I've also had a lot of responses saying to buy used, and then a lot not recommending it for fitting reasons. My gut tells me that the safe bet is to buy new in the shop with a dedicated shop employee (who I'm kind of buddy's with at this point) to put me in an optimal position and get me the optima sized frame. BUT, this is obviously the most expensive path. That is besides the deal I have been told I can get if I custom order in August, when all of their wholesale dealer prices go down and they can get a deal on my end as well.

3. There are also a lot of people saying to go aluminum, and basically saying that I WILL breaking a carbon frame in races. This is obviously not all that cool. To be honest, I like the idea of carbon since the roads in Canada are total crap and riding on my current tri aluminum bike with a carbon fork is pretty harsh. However if it means staying fast and in the game maybe it's worth it =). How likely is it really that I will actually break a friggin frame? I like the idea that Cannondale has warranty on their frames as well. A warranty might make all the difference here. 

4. I'm pretty much settled on getting a high end groupo like SRAM red to compliment whatever I buy for shifting efficiency and solid mechancs. However, the local cat 4 rider at the shop gave me completely different advice saying that it's the frame and wheels that make the biggest difference and will get me the best performance. He recommends putting the investment in that route, and getting a basic groupo like 105's. I feel like he's right, but everyone here is shying against putting a big investment into bike/wheelset for durability reasons. I want to make sure I have a strong drivetrain and reliable shifting (honestly my 105 group are not reliable at all) so I'm pretty sure I'm set on this path of SRAM Red. 

5. Buying a bike 2 sizes too small? Do racers do this for a compact aero profile? Just get a super long low stem with the seat way up high for super aggressive geometry? What do you guys think of this? 

6. Are less expensive bikes generally less aggressive geometries? Is this in setup of the handlebars for the most part or the frame itself? If this is the case, should I try to get an aluminum frame that is the baby brother to the same race geometry of a much higher end bike? Such as... Getting a Felt FA that has the same dimensions as a much more expensive frame, just using heavier but stronger materials. 

7. I am getting tons of recommendations about bike manufacturers that are not represented in my area, and if I'm going to buy new, I'd prefer to have the service of a local shop. The list of bike brands in my area again are: "Norco, Kona, Giant, Specialized, Kuota, Marinoni and Felt. Check it out for yourself if you need at www.woodcockcycle.com
The shops I don't like as much have: Trek, Cannondale, Cervelo, Gary Fisher, Argon 18 and Pinarello."

8. If I'm getting two sets of wheels, one set that is bomb proof and one that is lighter for racing (sounds like the kind of wheel I'll break, but if it makes a big difference in speed then it's probably worth it) then what would you recommend for a lower price point than the "irreplaceable wheels," that I was talking about in the $1,000 plus category? I'm assuming you guys are talking about two $500 wheelsets, so what in this range would be strongly recommended for both of those functions - racing and then training?

Thank you for all of the replies! This has been much more of an exercise than I have thought it would turn into. There are a lot of scattered opinions, but a lot of patterns of thought appearing as well. Hopefully these are good questions to get me on my way and keep my enthusiasm as froze wisely said, but to slowly lose my abundance of ignorance. I get the humor you guys must see reading over this thread, and I'll have you know that I'm appreciating the comedy as much as the wisdom! =D


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Just Kidding*



TurboDance said:


> 1. I have had a response saying that used bikes spin faster than new ones because everything is broken in...
> 
> 5. Buying a bike 2 sizes too small...


Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Especially when posted by someone like me (you?) with a twisted sense of humor.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Especially when posted by someone like me (you?) with a twisted sense of humor.


So don't buy a bike 2 sizes too small? It was such a revolutionary idea when I heard it! 

I'm definitely becoming more and more sold on ensuring that I have a proper fitting session on anything I buy before I buy it. Considering this comes for free at a shop when you buy from there, along with all of the other little perks that a shop will give you later once you've purchased, so far this seems like the best route. 

Oh, and what about all of these crazy online deals being posted. Should I be considering them? They all kind of look like no name brands, but I'm guess I'm just not sure whether that matters haha. Then, we're back to the fitting problem again. I pretty much have to add $200 to any purchase I make online for a fitting session, plus have some blind faith that the frame is optimal for me. Maybe I can go do craploads of research on what frame geometry I should be looking into and that will make me informed enough to buy online. Ughhhh!


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Especially when posted by someone like me (you?) with a twisted sense of humor.


careful...those crabon bikes will 'asplode.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

I'll bite.



TurboDance said:


> I still have some mixed direction on what I should do for buying a bike though. Here are my questions:
> 
> 1. lmao.
> 
> ...


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## swang169 (Apr 5, 2010)

If you are going to race, then you're going to crash. I would not recommend getting an expensive carbon frameset.

Get either the caad9/10 or a budget carbon frameset you can replace if you crash eg. pedalforce.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

TurboDance said:


> I'm definitely becoming more and more sold on ensuring that I have a proper fitting session on anything I buy before I buy it. Considering this comes for free at a shop when you buy from there, along with all of the other little perks that a shop will give you later once you've purchased, so far this seems like the best route.
> 
> Oh, and what about all of these crazy online deals being posted. Should I be considering them? They all kind of look like no name brands, but I'm guess I'm just not sure whether that matters haha. Then, we're back to the fitting problem again. I pretty much have to add $200 to any purchase I make online for a fitting session, plus have some blind faith that the frame is optimal for me. Maybe I can go do craploads of research on what frame geometry I should be looking into and that will make me informed enough to buy online. Ughhhh!


Most shops do not do a "full fit" when you purchase, which would include getting you up on a trainer, swapping saddles and stem length and crank length, etc. to get you in the best position for your current state. And if they do, seldom do they give you any measurements or data to support you purchasing bikes down the line based on the adjustments they made. Educating yourself on geometry and getting a professional fit will save you alot of potential headache (and money) down the line. I messed around for years with my fit before getting a real fit. Now I can buy any bike I want to and know if it will fit by asking a few questions and know exactly which adjustments I will need to make to dial it in for me. It is a worthwhile investment if you are serious and committed to this sport.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Safeway said:


> Here is another vote for passing on carbon fiber until you are CAT 4/3.
> 
> The highlights of CAT 5 races are usually not the sprint finishes or daring tactics, but the spectacular crashes. Even if you don't do anything stupid, the guy next to you certainly will. You might get bombed into a curb when some guy breaks your line. That'd kill a carbon wheel and possibly more.
> 
> ...


+1.....I couldn't agree with you more.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

krisdrum said:


> Most shops do not do a "full fit" when you purchase, which would include getting you up on a trainer, swapping saddles and stem length and crank length, etc. to get you in the best position for your current state. And if they do, seldom do they give you any measurements or data to support you purchasing bikes down the line based on the adjustments they made. Educating yourself on geometry and getting a professional fit will save you alot of potential headache (and money) down the line. I messed around for years with my fit before getting a real fit. Now I can buy any bike I want to and know if it will fit by asking a few questions and know exactly which adjustments I will need to make to dial it in for me. It is a worthwhile investment if you are serious and committed to this sport.


Yeah, you are probably right about this. The good thing is that the guy I know who does bike fittings at the local shop is completely fanatical about getting the right fit, and won't trust anyone else in the shop to do one for customers. He even got me up on my tri bike for a 1 hour fitting when I bought keo carbon clipless pedals. I think he did a really good job too. I'm not sure what his certification is, but everyone else in the shop including team riders rely on him for bike wisdom and proper frame fittings. 

But on to learning about why my bike was fitting, maybe I can request measurements be done and get a little education from him when we go through the process. As far as data goes, what should I be asking for?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Take a look at all the bikes that Bikes Direct sells, they have steel, TI, AL, AL and Cf, Cf and Ti, and Cf. At prices way lower then your local LBS or other internet retailers. If you crash one of those from Bikes Direct you won't pulling your hair out as much because of the cost factors are low. 

Besides I knew guys who raced on 105, why? because it was cheap and reliable, after all some racers, till they go pro (which is rare by the way), are on a beer budget. At Bikes Direct you can get a wide assortment of lightwieght bikes for under 2k that are race worthy.

Don't go 2 sizes lower either, at the most go 1 size.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

TurboDance said:


> Yeah, you are probably right about this. The good thing is that the guy I know who does bike fittings at the local shop is completely fanatical about getting the right fit, and won't trust anyone else in the shop to do one for customers. He even got me up on my tri bike for a 1 hour fitting when I bought keo carbon clipless pedals. I think he did a really good job too. I'm not sure what his certification is, but everyone else in the shop including team riders rely on him for bike wisdom and proper frame fittings.
> 
> But on to learning about why my bike was fitting, maybe I can request measurements be done and get a little education from him when we go through the process. As far as data goes, what should I be asking for?


That does not sound like the norm, so you may be in good hands. I'd probably casually ask him about his specific fitting experience and how he goes about his process. Sounds like he is probably trained one way or another. If he is, he may offer separate fitting sessions for a cost.

Ideally you should walk away with measurements of your body, measurements of your current bike and measurements that are "ideal" starting places for your bike, including specific stuff around seat tube angle, reach from saddle tip to bar, etc. Then, once you educate yourself around how geometry and personal fit interact and what changes in geometry do to fit, you can then look at any sufficient geometry chart and figure out which size frame would fit you best or if it won't fit you at all.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

froze said:


> Take a look at all the bikes that Bikes Direct sells, they have steel, TI, AL, AL and Cf, Cf and Ti, and Cf. At prices way lower then your local LBS or other internet retailers. If you crash one of those from Bikes Direct you won't pulling your hair out as much because of the cost factors are low.
> 
> Besides I knew guys who raced on 105, why? because it was cheap and reliable, after all some racers, till they go pro (which is rare by the way), are on a beer budget. At Bikes Direct you can get a wide assortment of lightwieght bikes for under 2k that are race worthy.
> 
> Don't go 2 sizes lower either, at the most go 1 size.


Right, but this is assuming I would know what frame to purchase there. At this point I really know nothing about geometry. Maybe I can do a bunch of research on what geometry I should look for, but it still feels like a risky purchase in terms of fitting when I have never felt a frame to the dimensions I come up with as being ideal. I can apparently get some good deals from my shop if I wait until August next year, but you're probably right that those deals still won't be in line with what this online retailer is offering. The second advantage though is that the bike servicing will be much better if I go through the local shop, something I have a feeling will come in handy for a newbie like myself. 

105 or rival/force may be the way to go. I may also mix and match so that I get ceramic bearings and stiffness on the components that matter such as ceramic bearings in the BB and derailleur in Red, plus stiffness in red rear cassette. I can see real world performance increases here beyond the weight which seem to justify these upgrades, more than the weight only advantages of higher groupo's that I am hearing so far from some other responses.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm calling troll.

I was on the fence until ceramic bearnings got mentioned.


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*High Fence*



Hank Stamper said:


> I'm calling troll.
> 
> I was on the fence until ceramic bearnings got mentioned.


Took you long enough. That must be a pretty high fence to not be able to see underneath the bridge. He didi manage to string everyone along for quite some time. I bet he could run a pretty good Western Union money order scam from some pine tree in Canada.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Took you long enough. That must be a pretty high fence to not be able to see underneath the bridge. He didi manage to string everyone along for quite some time. I bet he could run a pretty good Western Union money order scam from some pine tree in Canada.


yeah I know. Actually I called it, in my mind anyway, right away but tried to be polite incase he was just a bit 'special' so held off for solid confirmation. He's in Winnipeg remember so an assumption he couldn't be this soft was up to different standards.

The part about a top 10 in a charity ride is good though. That's like launching a baseball career after going 3 for 4 in a back yard wiffle ball game.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

LOL! What? This is going to sound kind of bad, but I'm not just new to this forum but forums in general, and I don't know what a troll is. I've seen the term thrown around, and I understand it's not a good thing. 

Listen guys, I'm just a new rider who only has reviews and your opinions to find the best purchasing path. Are ceramic bearings a scam? I didn't know that. It seemed like the reviews saw that as a very positive upgrade to regular bearings, and something a lot of people left out on this forum when responding to the logic of paying for better groupo's. 

Besides, why would I be here to waste everyone's time on something like this? I've got a full time job and a life, and I came here after a lot of time spent online trying to get informed so that I could ask good questions to the educated people on this forum. Apparently I either did a bad job of that, or there is no tolerance for the uneducated. 

If something I'm saying isn't making any sense, it's probably because I don't have the right information. You can be sure right now that I have no intention to "troll," whatever that is, I'm just an honest hard working guy trying to avoid thousand dollar mistakes. Please just give me the information I need to know it sounds like I'm misinformed. 

For the record, I guess I can consider myself educated about ceramic bearings..


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Hank Stamper said:


> yeah I know. Actually I called it, in my mind anyway, right away but tried to be polite incase he was just a bit 'special' so held off for solid confirmation. He's in Winnipeg remember so an assumption he couldn't be this soft was up to different standards.
> 
> The part about a top 10 in a charity ride is good though. That's like launching a baseball career after going 3 for 4 in a back yard wiffle ball game.


Fk you guys. Honestly, if this is the kind of response you give to a new rider who is honestly looking for good information then you should be embarrassed to be part of this forum. Basically you're calling me stupid for having nothing to go off of but 2 months of riding, getting really positive responses from seemingly legit people with a lot of racing experience, and then reviews and internet bs to go off of for purchasing decisions. If this is the kind of welcome new riders get here, then this forum is a joke and you should know it.

I've received a lot of good information so far in this forum, but I didn't realize I would be receiving any 'special' responses from some jackass 80 stories up ego creek. I don't even know what a troll is, but I may have discovered its meaning based on this response.


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## zender (Jun 20, 2009)

Hank Stamper said:


> yeah I know. Actually I called it, in my mind anyway, right away but tried to be polite incase he was just a bit 'special' so held off for solid confirmation. He's in Winnipeg remember so an assumption he couldn't be this soft was up to different standards.
> 
> The part about a top 10 in a charity ride is good though. That's like launching a baseball career after going 3 for 4 in a back yard wiffle ball game.


Hey, I take offense to that! I went for the cycle in a back yard wiffle ball game once - and I'll make it to The Show one day. :thumbsup:

I do recommend, as the bombproof training wheelset to make the rear a Powertap wheel (with the usual Mavic Open Pro 32 spoke, 3 cross tank-of-a-wheel setup). That's a beefy wheel not to mention having power to train with. It's heavy, not aero, clincher - just what you want for training.

Tubular for racing. If you get a flat in a race, it doesn't really matter how long it takes to change it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

TurboDance said:


> For the record, I guess I can consider myself educated about ceramic bearings..


Educated about ceramic bearings? Gimme a break. You're a noob and you have upgrade itis. 

Besides....faster how? In an uphill climb? Power sprint? Time trial? 

Start with the basics: a fitted road bike. Then train so you're fast enough that a nice bike will make a difference.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

I love this thread as much as I love Bikerfox, The skinsuit guy, The china wall jumper, Aarontoy and Sprint Nick.

<img src=https://www.bikerfox.com/foxphotos2/images/418.jpg>

<img src=https://forums.roadbikereview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16208&stc=1&d=1108580817>

<img src=https://forums.roadbikereview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16209&stc=1&d=1108581767>

<img src=https://forums.roadbikereview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16213&stc=1&d=1108588058>

<img src=https://forums.roadbikereview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16212&stc=1&d=1108587955>

<img src=https://forums.roadbikereview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16333&stc=1&d=1108685939>


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> 105 or rival/force may be the way to go. I may also mix and match so that I get ceramic bearings and stiffness on the components that matter such as ceramic bearings in the BB and derailleur in Red, plus stiffness in red rear cassette. I can see real world performance increases here beyond the weight which seem to justify these upgrades, more than the weight only advantages of higher groupo's that I am hearing so far from some other responses.


WTF are you talking about? Cerarmic bearings? A Red rear derailer and cassette for added stiffness? You'd never notice ceramic bearings, and a high end cassette isn't any "stiffer" than a low end one, they just weigh less and wear out quicker. 

You need to take a big dose of reality. You're some guy who rode a fast charity ride and now is convinced he'll be a great racer if he just spent $5000 on a bike from this one shop he goes to with the best fitter in the world. But to get the really great deal, he has to wait until next August to buy a bike. 

Its great to support your local shop, but they're not going to come close to what you could get at Neuvation or Bikes Direct. And just because you don't buy the bike from them doesn't mean you can't get service from them. Lifetime free service that shops offer only applies to minor adjustments. And waiting until August? Now is the best time to buy a bike. Why waste another summer waiting for a deal?

And its a bike fer chrissakes. They're all pretty much the same. Unless you have an unusual shaped body, most bikes are going to fit you. I've owned several bikes (Cannondale, Kestrel, Fuji, Colnago, Litespeed, Eddy Merckx) over the years and they all fit me fine. With the exception of the Cannondale, all of them are/were 56 cm with an 11 cm stem. I only bought one from a bike shop and it was the most ill-fitting of the lot (the dreaded Cannondale). I've never even test rode bikes that I buy. Riding around for 15 minutes in the parking lot won't tell you anything. Figure out the size and experiment around with saddle position, saddle height and stem size. It takes some time to figure out how you like a bike to fit. Not everyone is the same. 

So just get a reasonable bike and go out and ride the thing.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Buy some nice crockery too, for when you get that ass handed to you on a plate....


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

TurboDance said:


> Wow, why is this so cheap? By the way, is it really a good idea to buy an unfitted bike off of ebay and hope that it works properly with my body? Do a lot of guys do this? Is it recommended?
> 
> Also, if you end up with an exotic brand name bike that there are no parts for in the city if something goes wrong, does this become an issue as well?
> 
> I can totally see the savings here, so maybe it's a bold and smart way of shopping.


Just to say it, you could do a session with an independent fitter, or a for-fee session at a shop with a good fitter. The possibility does exist that your "best" fit will change significantly after you've got some riding under your belt.


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## Lou3000 (Aug 25, 2010)

I don't know why people come out of the wood work to be an ass to new riders. I think the problem is that most of these guys are 50lbs over weight, riding a "classic" steel frame, and "training" for the local family 5 mile bike ride. When you say $5k they get jealous. If you stop riding after 1 day, then it isn't like you have besmirched the good name of cycling and these guys will be desperately bidding on your bike on eBay.

So get what you want. In response to your legitmate questions.

1. Yeah, carbon can break. So can aluminum. I think that the concern is that if you trash an aluminum frame it won't cost you that much to replace. My thought on it is this, I spend 99% of my time training with the occasional race making up the other 1% (most of my racing is in the much less damage prone world of triathlons). So do I want to spend 99% of my time on a harsh riding frame so that the other 1% of the time I don't have to worry about a crash? I'll take the carbon every time and bite the bullet paying the replacement cost if the wreck happens.

2. I disagree buying used is feasible. You are looking to spend several thousand on a bike, most likely carbon. If there is one thing I would want it would be the manufacturer's warranty. Again, the chances are probably slim, but at least in this case you can have a little bit of insurance. You have plenty of new options, there is no reason to go used unless you change your price range.

3. I also disagree with the people who say buy a cheap frame and get DuraAce or Red. I don't think you have to compromise. At your price point you can get an amazing frame and an amazing Ultegra or Force groupset. Stepping up to DuraAce or Red is going to make the bike lighter, but you won't notice much of a performance increase.

4. As for wheels. If you buy a complete bike the stock wheels will be fine for training. These will be your everyday wheels. Beyond that a second set of wheels will be used mainly for racing (or if you just want to be fast on a group ride). That is why I recommend a deeper section wheel. Your stock wheels will be plenty light and fine for long days. You won't see much of an improvement (aero or weight) from the stock Cosmics that come on the AR4 to the Zipp 101s.

5. Last don't listen to the bikes direct or internet bike people. I know many people love the bikes they got on the internet at a bargain, but for a new rider who seems to have a good relationship with their local shop, just buy from them. They will help you with fit, they will do the little adjustments for you, and will be a good place to meet riders and get good info.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Hate to say it, since I've been letting him string me along as well, but troll did cross my mind a number of times during this thread. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

spade2you hopefully has him in 1. Newbie who has "upgrade-itis" and is getting pulled along by the marketing razzle dazzle in the glossies. Ceramics, carbon fiber (or fibre in Canadia), Red/top of the line components, 1k wheelsets, etc.

Dance - if you are serious and not pulling our legs, get a bike that fits well with decent/mid-line components and a set of "race" wheels and rubber and go ride lots. 98% of this sport is about fitness and training. You can show up on a 10k bike, but it isn't going to pedal for you. You are literally talking about fractions of a second faster because of equipment choice. At no point in my racing career so far was I looking down at my bike going "if only I had spent more". And almost all my bikes are sub $1500 builds. I'm done.


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## Lou3000 (Aug 25, 2010)

pmf said:


> I've never even test rode bikes that I buy. Riding around for 15 minutes in the parking lot won't tell you anything. Figure out the size and experiment around with saddle position, saddle height and stem size. It takes some time to figure out how you like a bike to fit. Not everyone is the same.


Worst advice ever. The LBS may not be able to make a bike magically fit you, but you are certainly free to ride everything they have in stock and get an idea of what you like in a bike. 

If you have a good relationship with the shop, they will let you ride more than 15 minutes. My LBS is close to a cycling friendly road and will let you take the bike for a lot more than 15 minutes.

Enjoy passing this guy (pmf) next August. He will be the guy riding a no name bike two sizes too big with a 60mm stem.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Lou3000 said:


> Worst advice ever. The LBS may not be able to make a bike magically fit you, but you are certainly free to ride everything they have in stock and get an idea of what you like in a bike.
> 
> If you have a good relationship with the shop, they will let you ride more than 15 minutes. My LBS is close to a cycling friendly road and will let you take the bike for a lot more than 15 minutes.
> 
> Enjoy passing this guy next August. He will be the guy riding a no name bike two sizes too big with a 60mm stem.


...and a broken set of Lightweights.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Lou3000 said:


> I don't know why people come out of the wood work to be an ass to new riders. I think the problem is that most of these guys are 50lbs over weight, riding a "classic" steel frame, and "training" for the local family 5 mile bike ride.



This has nothing to do with 'new riders'. Every experienced rider was a new rider at one point and remembers it and if they are anything like me they find the OPs thought process a little difficult to interpret as being a serious inquiry.
I would never give anyone crap for simply being new and would feel horrible if I did inadvertantly. But new or old rider making a few wise cracks and calling troll on someone who uses a charity ride place to launch a racing career and dump big bucks isn't something I'm going to lose sleep over.


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## haiku d'etat (Apr 28, 2001)

ROFLCOPTER


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> ceramic bearings


CERAMIC BEARINGS? Turbo, I've got this nagging feeling that you're going to announce that you've been pulling everyone's leg with this thread and everyone, who had given you straight answers, is going to look like a fool. Or maybe you thought October 1st was *April* 1st?

Turbo, this thread is absurd. You're getting to be absurd. Ceramic bearings, for someone who got pumped because of a charity ride, is *beyond* absurd. Lemme tella ya from experience. The experience of seeing thousands of "the next Eddy Merckx" come & go; I've been in this game for 5 decades - buy a nice $1000 bike that fits you and wear the effin' thing out in a couple of years. The difference in speed between it and a 5K bike is this much >.< By then you'll know whether you're going to set the cycling world on fire or you're just one of the many thousands like the rest of us plus you'll know what you really want in a bike or whether you should get a set of golf clubs.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

skyliner1004 said:


> http://www.feltbicycles.com/USA/2011/Road/F-Series/F3.aspx
> Felt F3 - Sram Red Groupset, Sram S30 Race Wheels ($1000 wheels), 14.85 lbs. $5000
> 
> Get this!


My LBS has an F2 in 54cm for $4,000! Of course you would have to "settle" for Di2 instead of SRAM Red.


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## HIMEHEEM (Sep 25, 2009)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> <img src=http://forums.roadbikereview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16333&stc=1&d=1108685939>


Now whats so funny about this?
I run this same fredup...I mean setup.


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

haiku d'etat said:


> ROFLCOPTER


She got do'd.


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## JoeDaddio (Sep 3, 2005)

Are there any long time mountain bikers here looking to go road? 


joe


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

HIMEHEEM said:


> Now whats so funny about this?
> I run this same fredup...I mean setup.


Well besides the obvious extreme crosschaining this was a guy who claimed to do a 10k in record time--people called him on it and he sort of slunk away after everyone piled on. One of those "had to be there" threads I guess. I think this picture was an invitation by him to critique his bike positioning.


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## swang169 (Apr 5, 2010)

If you get a felt, wait for their new models because they redesigned the F series.


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## HIMEHEEM (Sep 25, 2009)

JoeDaddio said:


> Are there any long time mountain bikers here looking to go road?
> 
> 
> joe


Does Trek make fast $5000 bikes?


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## HIMEHEEM (Sep 25, 2009)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Well besides the obvious extreme crosschaining this was a guy who claimed to do a 10k in record time--people called him on it and he sort of slunk away after everyone piled on. One of those "had to be there" threads I guess. I think this picture was an invitation by him to critique his bike positioning.


i bet he got some useful info out of that 

I'm sure nobody mentioned the mini-pump, mtb helmet, or glasses under the straps.


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## JoeDaddio (Sep 3, 2005)

HIMEHEEM said:


> Does Trek make fast $5000 bikes?



Only if they're yellow.


joe


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Safeway said:


> I have had some nasty bruising and some minor crash damage due to the moronic actions of inexperienced cyclists. I am young - very young - junior division young - but I have been riding road bikes since the age of 6. I know how to handle a bike, but I cannot avoid all accidents.


Yeah... This one was my first serious crash (meaning, with non-trivial injuries) in all my years of cycling, about 30 of them or so...


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Hank Stamper said:


> This has nothing to do with 'new riders'. Every experienced rider was a new rider at one point and remembers it and if they are anything like me they find the OPs thought process a little difficult to interpret as being a serious inquiry.
> I would never give anyone crap for simply being new and would feel horrible if I did inadvertantly. But new or old rider making a few wise cracks and calling troll on someone who uses a charity ride place to launch a racing career and dump big bucks isn't something I'm going to lose sleep over.


Why is my line of thought hard to understand, and why does it validate such aggressive non welcoming responses from you? Is that okay or am I missing something? 

If you read anything in this thread, you'll see that I went to great lengths to let people know that I'm really serious about getting into cycling because it's finally something I can see myself fully pursuing after years of frustrating snowboarding injuries. As a new cyclist with a competitive spirit, did you ever wonder how much the bike could make a difference in your own progression? How much it held you back? Did this ever cross your mind getting into a sport where bike shops are filled with race models sported by the local elites? These are the kinds of questions I am asking in this thread, and I don't see it being illogical at all. 

If my set budget isn't necessary, then all I have to hear is what will perform similarly at a smaller price point. I think a lot of people in the forum have done an extremely good job of giving me options and factors to consider, and I really do feel a lot more sound about going forward with an eventual decision. 

On a secondary issue, what does it matter about me being proud of doing well in my first big ride anyways? Since then it's inspired me to take my bike out nearly every day, become much more serious about nutrition and health, and even to do my first century last weekend which is four times the distance of anything I had ever rode up until two months ago. Has that hurt anybody? I assumed that wanting to really commit and get into racing after such a short time on my bike would have been something people would be stoked on. I mean at 25 making my own money, I was stoked enough to financially commit $5,000 for a bike that I could excitedly work towards matching in my own performance when I first wrote this thread. Since then, I've probably learned that I was right about buying local from my shop, but just to revise where my money is going and probably spend a bit less of it on the actual bike. That's a good thing, and I'm pretty glad I posted. 

I guess I should have expected forum flak for being a new guy with a commitment and a dream when posting questions on the internet, because hey, the internet is a pretty skeptical place. Thanks for the helpful comments up to that post at least...


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Educated about ceramic bearings? Gimme a break. You're a noob and you have upgrade itis.
> 
> Besides....faster how? In an uphill climb? Power sprint? Time trial?
> 
> Start with the basics: a fitted road bike. Then train so you're fast enough that a nice bike will make a difference.


Just less rolling resistance overall? Maybe I just don't know how big of a difference it makes if any. 

I do intend to start with the basics though. I basically have a training bike right now in my TT bike that I intend to ride the crap out of until next year, when I will be in much better shape than today and at the point where I can afford to get that nice bike which will complement the abilities I intend to hone. 

Noob I am but rich idiot I am not.


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

No, no, no, you're going about this all crabbed. It isn't time to get all huffy yet. Keep it sincere, and pretend that the posters just don't get you.


BTW. the fastest $5000 bike I've ever seen had Dave Zabriskie on it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

TurboDance said:


> I mean at 25 making my own money, I was stoked enough to financially commit $5,000 for a bike that I could excitedly work towards matching in my own performance when I first wrote this thread.


You're an adult with a job, but keep in mind that having $5k does not necessarily mean you can afford a $5k bike. 

Nonetheless, just get yourself a nice and solid road bike that's fitted. This is all and exactly what you need. Most of the high end stuff is light, but you start dealing with durability. If durability weren't an issue, everyone would be using Zipp rims for every day training.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Lou3000 said:


> I don't know why people come out of the wood work to be an ass to new riders. I think the problem is that most of these guys are 50lbs over weight, riding a "classic" steel frame, and "training" for the local family 5 mile bike ride. When you say $5k they get jealous. If you stop riding after 1 day, then it isn't like you have besmirched the good name of cycling and these guys will be desperately bidding on your bike on eBay.
> 
> So get what you want. In response to your legitmate questions.


Lou, thanks for the really thorough feedback to the questions I posted. You've reinforced a lot of conclusions I was getting to, and I've definitely got to thank you for taking my posts seriously. 

I think I'm ready at this point to take this feedback to the shop and start customizing a little bit to get the right build the first time around, so that I don't go back thinking I would want to do it all over again. 

I'm definitely going to check out the differences in ride quality vs AR and F series models, but wait for the 2011 versions to come in so that the redesigned F series gets a proper go. I should also make sure to actually ride all of the options before I base my conclusions on internet hype. 

I realize that ultimately I probably don't have to spend the kind of money I was initially talking about to get the kind of bike I'm hoping for. Really I just want to have a rewarding bike to ride when starting out in the race world so that I feel like I still have the potential to pull out some awesome results.


----------



## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

My Own Private Idaho said:


> No, no, no, you're going about this all crabbed. It isn't time to get all huffy yet. Keep it sincere, and pretend that the posters just don't get you.


Just keep it cool Jeff, just keep it cool... =).


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

TurboDance said:


> Just less rolling resistance overall? Maybe I just don't know how big of a difference it makes if any.
> 
> I do intend to start with the basics though. I basically have a training bike right now in my TT bike that I intend to ride the crap out of until next year, when I will be in much better shape than today and at the point where I can afford to get that nice bike which will complement the abilities I intend to hone.
> 
> Noob I am but rich idiot I am not.


Why do you have a TT bike and no road bike. What you should have done was get a road bike THEN a TT bike. 

Regardless, a ~3k roadie is about all you need. END OF STORY. As I stated elsewhere, the 'spensive stuff isn't always the most durable. Get a solid frame and solid wheels. There will be a little more rolling resistance, but this forces you to train harder. Cyclists can and will make fun of the rookie who shows up with the fancy stuff and gets dropped on the first hill.

If you're looking to hone your skills, get a nice fluid trainer, some intervals DVDs, some rollers for endurance training, and a good training plan.


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## HIMEHEEM (Sep 25, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Regardless, a ~3k roadie is about all you need.


Spade, if I got a $3000 road bike, what kind of avg speed would be reasonable to expect from it?

Also, Is there some sort of minimum bench press I should be able to do before riding a $3000 road bike?

Thx.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

HIMEHEEM said:


> Spade, if I got a $3000 road bike, what kind of avg speed would be reasonable to expect from it?
> 
> Also, Is there some sort of minimum bench press I should be able to do before riding a $3000 road bike?
> 
> Thx.


You should be able to bench 100 clowns at minimum.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Why do you have a TT bike and no road bike. What you should have done was get a road bike THEN a TT bike.
> 
> Regardless, a ~3k roadie is about all you need. END OF STORY. As I stated elsewhere, the 'spensive stuff isn't always the most durable. Get a solid frame and solid wheels. There will be a little more rolling resistance, but this forces you to train harder. Cyclists can and will make fun of the rookie who shows up with the fancy stuff and gets dropped on the first hill.
> 
> If you're looking to hone your skills, get a nice fluid trainer, some intervals DVDs, some rollers for endurance training, and a good training plan.


No kidding! I'm not pissed off that I bought the TT bike because it got me into the sport, but I'm definitely realizing the issues with only ONLY a TT bike now that I am riding it all the time. Like I said in the original post, I actually ended up buying the TT as a commuter because it was such a screaming deal that I found. That and I have always enjoyed riding ridiculously fast. Apparently it's not the best handler in traffic though.. =)

As I think I've covered, I'm on the same train of thought now on what price point of bike I should be looking into to suit my needs, and I think I've edited into this range. 

Last winter I did make the smart move of investing into a kurt kinetic top of the line fluid trainer, and I'm extremely stoked that I did. I used it pretty much bi-weekly last winter, but I intend to ride the crap out of it and challenge myself to ride it so hard that I make it fail on its lifetime warranty. TURBO. Also, a buddy of mine who I met on that charity event is going to lend me some trainer DVD's he used to work towards the California Death race a few years ago. He wants to turn me into an animal so that I can attack that course with him next year.


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## HIMEHEEM (Sep 25, 2009)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> You should be able to bench 100 clowns at minimum.


Jeez, that seems like a lot, I've only been able to locate three clowns and they're all fat


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

HIMEHEEM said:


> Jeez, that seems like a lot, I've only been able to locate three clowns and they're all fat


HTFU.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

HIMEHEEM said:


> Spade, if I got a $3000 road bike, what kind of avg speed would be reasonable to expect from it?
> 
> Also, Is there some sort of minimum bench press I should be able to do before riding a $3000 road bike?
> 
> Thx.


Apparently the comedy is endless in this forum! Haha... well at least it's all in good fun. 

Guys! I'm just trying to find a high value bike that will compliment me as I get into racing! 

Oh but 60 km/h training speed minimum btw. Are there any $5,000 bikes with internal combustion engines within the cranks? kthnx. ;D Screw ceramic though, my engine doesn't need that sht to fly.


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

Hand/of/Midas said:


> Two bikes. Seriously.
> 
> One 2.5k Road bike.
> 
> ...



+ A billion or two

Seriously....Any good racer I know has about 4 bikes, including 2 race rigs, and about 5-6 sets of wheels. 

For a beginner, a nice aluminum bike with some heavy duty wheels fits the bill. You will crash. You will wreck....you will ruin AT LEAST one bike. This is part of the process.

Also, I wouldn't listen too much to what some Cat 3/4's are telling themselves. Especially at a charity event.

Wait til you race your first crit, and you get to the last 4 laps...the eyepopping effort is something that you can't accurately describe, you have to live it....


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

if you really want a fast bike:


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

spade2you said:


> You're an adult with a job, but keep in mind that having $5k does not necessarily mean you can afford a $5k bike.
> 
> Nonetheless, just get yourself a nice and solid road bike that's fitted. This is all and exactly what you need. Most of the high end stuff is light, but you start dealing with durability. If durability weren't an issue, everyone would be using Zipp rims for every day training.


If I had a dollar for every pair of high-profile high-zoot carbon fiber wheels I've seen on "The Shootout" I could buy a pair.

They make me laff.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_but I intend to ride the crap out of it and challenge myself to ride it so hard that I make it fail on its lifetime warranty_

You are the trainer killer! Can I get your autograph now, before the queue really builds up?


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## Dizzy812 (Feb 20, 2007)

Bikes aren't fast.


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## Dizzy812 (Feb 20, 2007)

Red is good.


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## Dizzy812 (Feb 20, 2007)

All your questions will / have been answered


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## Dizzy812 (Feb 20, 2007)

Read.


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## Dizzy812 (Feb 20, 2007)

Ride.


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## Dizzy812 (Feb 20, 2007)

Lots.


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## Ridgetop (Mar 1, 2005)

Wow, the BS meter is off the charts!

You claim you've only been riding two months - *Basically you're calling me stupid for having nothing to go off of but 2 months of riding*, but then say *Last winter I did make the smart move of investing into a kurt kinetic top of the line fluid trainer, and I'm extremely stoked that I did. I used it pretty much bi-weekly last winter, but I intend to ride the crap out of it and challenge myself to ride it so hard that I make it fail on its lifetime warranty*. What the hell were you doing for all those months in between? Long winter?

And you say *I'm definitely going to take a look around, and join some spin classes this winter to learn to train indoors.* but you 've been training all winter twice a week anyway?


Wow, the bull crap smells really bad around here.


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

Dizzy812 said:


> Read.


Quit...


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

padding......


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

yer.....


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

poast.......it


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

count......


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Ridgetop said:


> Wow, the BS meter is off the charts!
> 
> You claim you've only been riding two months - *Basically you're calling me stupid for having nothing to go off of but 2 months of riding*, but then say *Last winter I did make the smart move of investing into a kurt kinetic top of the line fluid trainer, and I'm extremely stoked that I did. I used it pretty much bi-weekly last winter, but I intend to ride the crap out of it and challenge myself to ride it so hard that I make it fail on its lifetime warranty*. What the hell were you doing for all those months in between? Long winter?
> 
> ...


Yup, I see how that sounds fishy, I will give you that. Basically I haven't decided or been able to take it really seriously until two months ago, even though I wanted to. Before that I was hardly able to get on my bike for any duration of time to train because my shoulder was dislocating so often. Also, bi-weekly means every two weeks, not two times a week. 

But really, the main thing I am going to have to respond to here is that I really don't get why people are so skeptical about people coming into a forum and making a fool out of everyone? What horrible cycling scam artists have you experienced in the past, or what kind of nightmares do you have to become so cynical that you are looking to pick me apart at every angle? 

Guys, I'm just trying to get a nice and fast setup for (YES) next year when I have had my surgery for my shoulder done and have (YES) saved the money for a decent ride. That doesn't mean I know anything about ceramic bearings. That doesn't mean I know how much I need to spend on a bike. That doesn't mean I think I am bound to be the next big thing in cycling. It means I am excited enough to ride to go online to a respected community of experts and ask for their opinion on what direction I should take on a big purchase; much like I'm sure you were at one point. What the hell is wrong with all of you? What has happened to you? Is this the kind of help community that you are contributing towards? If so, you might be better off riding your bikes than turning this forum into a place of paranoid attack instead of a bike parts section of the forum which I have been trying to keep the conversation to. Remember, it is you guys that are bringing it away from that by finger pointing in an ego trip about however you think somebody else's perspective should be about cycling, before they have barely gotten into it. 

So I am stoked on cycling and want to buy a new bike. What is so offensive that half of you decide that I'm a threat to you all? Is this a bike parts forum or an experience of parts buying competition forum?

I do want to say thank you again to the really good perspectives that were shown here. I'm glad I came for that reason.

I'm sorry for bringing up ceramic bearings and unjustified bike purchases to the rest of you. I'm off for a ride now to think about things and get excited about cycling again!

With no offense meant, but if these forums come to this, I think all of us need to let some dust gather on the keyboards and not our bikes for a while.. thanks everyone.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Not knowing what you don't know is going to cost you a ton of money.

Here is what I'd recommend (assuming this is not a troll....and I'm not convinced)

Get someone to do a reasonable fitting.

Research geometry and figure out what stock bikes will work for you.

Spend $1,000 for a used bike in geometry that works for you.

Ride the crap out of it foe about 18 months......tweak the fit until you get something that fits like a glove or recognize what type of fit might work. Tweak bars, stem, seat, etc. Dial the fit in.

Once you know what fit works for you.....then go spenf $4,000 on your dream bike.

That's how not to waste money on a bike. If you spend the $5,000 up front, you'll replace it in under 12 months.

Or buy the $1,000 used bike and hire a coach if you want to get fast.

Len


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## shermes (Jul 26, 2008)

TurboDance said:


> Yup, I see how that sounds fishy, I will give you that. Basically I haven't decided or been able to take it really seriously until two months ago, even though I wanted to. Before that I was hardly able to get on my bike for any duration of time to train because my shoulder was dislocating so often.* Also, bi-weekly means every two weeks, not two times a week*.
> 
> But really, the main thing I am going to have to respond to here is that I really don't get why people are so skeptical about people coming into a forum and making a fool out of everyone? What horrible cycling scam artists have you experienced in the past, or what kind of nightmares do you have to become so cynical that you are looking to pick me apart at every angle?
> 
> ...


What does biannual mean then?


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## Sharknose (Aug 9, 2010)

TurboDance said:


> ...It means I am excited enough to ride to go online to a respected community of experts and ask for their opinion on what direction I should take on a big purchase; much like I'm sure you were at one point. What the hell is wrong with all of you? What has happened to you? Is this the kind of help community that you are contributing towards? If so, you might be better off riding your bikes than turning this forum into a place of paranoid attack instead of a bike parts section of the forum which I have been trying to keep the conversation to.


You asked for opinions, you got 'em. Part of what set the thread on fire was the combination of "I've got $5K to spend on the fastest road rocket" and "I want to be a racer" - a volatile combination. It's like saying "I've got $5K to spend at Vegas and I want to win big! What games should I try?" or "I want to win marathons! What's the fastest shoes money can buy?"

Lots of folks want to genuinely help other forum members avoid wasting money, esp. a big chunk like $5k. You said you want to be a racer - good for you. I hope you make it and do well. Really. Having $5K to spend on privateer racing is an advantage. But dumping it all on a high-zoot bike won't get you very far by itself. 

Being a racer means more than owning a bike - its training, coaching, nutrition, bike maintenance, road rash, rules, regulations, recovery time, trips to the hospital, sitting races out, volunteering at the crit, riding the sag, loaning a spare wheel, patching flats, dressing in layers, keeping a log and legs that just plain hurt.

Don't get attached to the bike. For racers, they are like tires - meant to be used, worn out and replaced. With about as much affection. 

If you want to be a racer, and still wish to spend the $5K on a bike, buy the parts and learn to build it up yourself. Until you are good enough to have a car with spare bikes on the roof following you during the race, it will be a very valuable skill to have. Buy whatever bike fits you and is suited to the style of riding you prefer. Choose a color you like, get a saddle that fits yer butt and ride the wheels off the thing.

Good luck.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

shermes said:


> What does biannual mean then?


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/biweekly 

Just looked it up. According to wikipedia it can be used in both forms. Anyways, what I meant was I was probably only riding a couple times a month.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Lou3000 said:


> Worst advice ever. The LBS may not be able to make a bike magically fit you, but you are certainly free to ride everything they have in stock and get an idea of what you like in a bike.
> 
> If you have a good relationship with the shop, they will let you ride more than 15 minutes. My LBS is close to a cycling friendly road and will let you take the bike for a lot more than 15 minutes.
> 
> Enjoy passing this guy (pmf) next August. He will be the guy riding a no name bike two sizes too big with a 60mm stem.


 

I get the strange feeling I've been at this for a decade or two longer than you have. 

I don't care how long the test ride is, its never going to be enough to get a good feeling for things -- especially for a guy just starting out. I guess you may have a point about being new to things and buying from a LBS, but they charge substantially more. All that BS about lifetime free adjustments is worth what you pay for it. Anything involving parts or anything more than minor labor, they'll charge you for. What they will do for free are things you should know how to do yourself. 

Don't hang out in a bike shop, join a bike club. 

Although its tempting, I'll refrain from making sophmoric comments about Lou.


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

pmf said:


> I get the strange feeling I've been at this for a decade or two longer than you have.
> 
> I don't care how long the test ride is, its never going to be enough to get a good feeling for things -- especially for a guy just starting out. I guess you may have a point about being new to things and buying from a LBS, but they charge substantially more. All that BS about lifetime free adjustments is worth what you pay for it. Anything involving parts or anything more than minor labor, they'll charge you for. What they will do for free are things you should know how to do yourself.
> 
> ...


Do you need a twenty foot stepladder to get on that horse, or will a fifteen footer work?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*find some one who can fit you*

buy used $5000 bike for $2200
spend the rest on coaching


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## brblue (Jan 28, 2003)

Dajianshan said:


> If you want speed you can buy, I'm sure you can find a dealer somewhere.


+1
Add clenbuterol too.
You know you want it


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)




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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Sharknose said:


> You asked for opinions, you got 'em. Part of what set the thread on fire was the combination of "I've got $5K to spend on the fastest road rocket" and "I want to be a racer" - a volatile combination. It's like saying "I've got $5K to spend at Vegas and I want to win big! What games should I try?" or "I want to win marathons! What's the fastest shoes money can buy?"
> 
> Lots of folks want to genuinely help other forum members avoid wasting money, esp. a big chunk like $5k. You said you want to be a racer - good for you. I hope you make it and do well. Really. Having $5K to spend on privateer racing is an advantage. But dumping it all on a high-zoot bike won't get you very far by itself.
> 
> ...


Haha, I see what you mean about a volatile combination! If you plan on spending money in this forum, one had better be ready to justify it. I have a feeling that people in this forum were expecting an array of non bike buying cycling commitments from me before they were ready to take me seriously. Oh well. 

I like your idea that the bike is really just an extension of the rider, and is seen as a potentially disposable item. Basically what I'm saying is I'm committed to making this happen, even if it meant buying a $5,000 bike off the hop, which clearly isn't necessary when you consider all of the other factors that are even more important.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Len J said:


> Not knowing what you don't know is going to cost you a ton of money.
> 
> Here is what I'd recommend (assuming this is not a troll....and I'm not convinced)
> 
> ...


Good advice. The only thing that's missing is that I'll already be riding the crap out of my current tri bike for a year in preparation for the real thing. I am just doing early research on what I should eventually be looking into when I am ready for the bike I want to serve as a racing machine for the next few years - especially if an early deal arises. That way I won't be wasting money in an uninformed decision about what really will work as you said. 

For the meantime since I'm in Canada and the season is ending, I'm going to join spin classes to learn how to properly train over the winter until the 2011 season comes along and there are outdoor classes available again.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> Good advice. The only thing that's missing is that I'll already be riding the crap out of my current tri bike for a year in preparation for the real thing. I am just doing early research on what I should eventually be looking into when I am ready for the bike I want to serve as a racing machine for the next few years - especially if an early deal arises. That way I won't be wasting money in an uninformed decision about what really will work as you said.
> 
> For the meantime since I'm in Canada and the season is ending, I'm going to join spin classes to learn how to properly train over the winter until the 2011 season comes along and there are outdoor classes available again.


Get a beater bike, put it on a trainer and buy the Chris Carmichael DVDs (http://www.trainright.com/folders.asp?uid=19). Do some weight training. I tried spinning classes once and concluded they really aren't great training for being a good bike rider. You do work uop a sweat though.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

pmf said:


> Get a beater bike, put it on a trainer and buy the Chris Carmichael DVDs (http://www.trainright.com/folders.asp?uid=19). Do some weight training. I tried spinning classes once and concluded they really aren't great training for being a good bike rider. You do work uop a sweat though.


Most racers currently aren't in favor of weight training, although we're an odd bunch that will believe whatever the current research tells us. 

Regardless, carbon bikes will not asplode on trainers. My Bianchi 928 C2C has seen many miles, races, and countless hours in the trainer. At the moment, the bike has no signs of slowing down.


----------



## zach.scofield (Apr 11, 2010)

Felt F3 maybe F2 depending on the deal they give you.


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## SilentAssassin (Jul 29, 2010)

moved


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

^ Plus, the orange color makes you fast like The General Lee. YEEEEEEhaw!!!!!!


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Most racers currently aren't in favor of weight training, although we're an odd bunch that will believe whatever the current research tells us.
> 
> Regardless, carbon bikes will not asplode on trainers. My Bianchi 928 C2C has seen many miles, races, and countless hours in the trainer. At the moment, the bike has no signs of slowing down.


Yeah, I see biopace chain rings are making a come back too  

Seriously, I've found weight lifting, especially using the legs to be really good. You can lift for strength without getting pumped up like a body builder.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

pmf said:


> Yeah, I see biopace chain rings are making a come back too
> 
> Seriously, I've found weight lifting, especially using the legs to be really good. You can lift for strength without getting pumped up like a body builder.


I don't know anyone locally who use eliptical rings, but like anything else, I suppose if you train yourself to use them in a TT, the body will adapt for them. David Millar didn't do too shabby the other day on them. I don't have any plans of using them since "trying" means buying and I'm quite happy with my current setup. 

As for weight training, if you're looking to build power on the bike, the general concensus is to build it ON the bike WITH the bike. The pedal stroke involves many muscles at the different positions of the pedal stroke. You can try to isolate muscles as much as you want, but it's rare you will bike with a single muscle group isolated. Bone density is an obvious advantage for a lot of older riders, but at the moment, weight lifting is regarded as minimally beneficial. Some pros do it, some don't.


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## Bike Poor (Sep 17, 2009)

One advantage to weight lifting that many don't mention is crash resilience, even beyond the bone density improvements. I think some upper body weight training is a good idea, especially for those who mountain bike too.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

SilentAssassin said:


> Now you also might want to consider getting the right gear, so you can look good in 1st place too: :8:


NICE! I love orange haha. Black/Orange is currently my theme with these Lake shoes: https://www.spadout.com/images/store/products/3036907.jpg plus orange/black michillin tires, plus orange black cycling gloves (which I recently lost.. ugh!).

This bike would look totally dope! Too bad I have decided to go from my favoured shop in the area. I may eventually get this though: https://www.woodcockcycle.com/product;cat,422;item,3257;$2,000---$2,699-2010-Felt-F5-Carbon-Road-Bike# OR https://www.woodcockcycle.com/product;cat,424;item,3429;$3,400---$4,699-2011-Felt-AR4 .

By the time I actually go to invest in a new bike, I may want to put a bit more money into a setup than the one you showed. I just don't see ANYONE out there racing bikes cheaper than this in my area, mostly because the racing bikes at the shops have a starting range or racing bikes at around 2k. I don't know if it's matter of it being a competitive or rich area. Oh well, I will be able to afford it if the time comes, and remember I have been promised a good deal come August when they get these setups much cheaper from the dealers. However it's all about fit and actual performance, so this is just speculation until I know what works for me. 

By the way, where do you think I could find that jersey online? I have been searching for a vendor but I can't seem to track one down. Hopefully I can a small in that orange colour. That or I will probably end up going with this: https://www.beebuyer.com/product/545392-Motor-by-Twin-Six .

EDIT: Sorry the cycling shop links aren't appearing properly. Just copy and paste these into your bar:
https://www.woodcockcycle.com/product;cat,422;item,3257;$2,000---$2,699-2010-Felt-F5-Carbon-Road-Bike#
https://www.woodcockcycle.com/product;cat,424;item,3429;$3,400---$4,699-2011-Felt-AR4


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

pmf said:


> Get a beater bike, put it on a trainer and buy the Chris Carmichael DVDs (http://www.trainright.com/folders.asp?uid=19). Do some weight training. I tried spinning classes once and concluded they really aren't great training for being a good bike rider. You do work uop a sweat though.


A riding buddy of my dad has a daughter who is on the Canadian National team and apparently does most of her riding from home on her trainer. I'm not sure if she's just a psycho good rider to be able to do that (apparently her dad is) but it gives me some faith that I can keep cycling a year round sport even through the really harsh winter. The Kurt Kinetic I saved for last year when I wanted to get into cycling more works very well though. I'm thinking at the least it will keep me in shape over the Winter until next Spring/Summer/Fall comes around again.


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## zender (Jun 20, 2009)

If you don't finish on the podium it won't be because you bought that Motobecane instead of spending 2K or 5K on a bike. If you DO finish on the podium with that Motobecane, think of the smack you'll be able to talk to the folks that blew 5K or more on a bike.

"Hey, how's that $3,000 wheelset working out for you? Pretty aero?"
"Yeah, I noticed that Di2 shifting was pretty crisp on your Ridley. What happened to you on that last climb to the finish?"

My $.02


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Bike Poor said:


> One advantage to weight lifting that many don't mention is crash resilience, even beyond the bone density improvements. I think some upper body weight training is a good idea, especially for those who mountain bike too.


No kidding! I think this is a pretty important thing to consider for me, since I've had such a long history of shoulder dislocations. It's one of the reasons I'm in no rush to buy an actual racing bike, because I intend to not race next year and wait until my surgery has properly healed for Spring 2012. The plan: really consistent physio and eventually work towards overall "crash resilience," as you have said. Reps high and weight low to keep off the bulk of course though. Maybe I'll try some leg weights as well and see how I respond. A broad range of exercises and types of stresses on the muscles should give the best overall strength I would think.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

...and by 2012, that $5000 bike will be worth $1500-$2000....


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

zender said:


> If you don't finish on the podium it won't be because you bought that Motobecane instead of spending 2K or 5K on a bike. If you DO finish on the podium with that Motobecane, think of the smack you'll be able to talk to the folks that blew 5K or more on a bike.
> 
> "Hey, how's that $3,000 wheelset working out for you? Pretty aero?"
> "Yeah, I noticed that Di2 shifting was pretty crisp on your Ridley. What happened to you on that last climb to the finish?"
> ...


Hahaha, that's the potential of very high value bikes, for sure. 

To be honest, I have nothing against spending $800 as opposed to $2,000-4,000 on a bike, and I even believe now that the differences are probably marginal. 

However, since this is my first road geometry bike ever (besides tri which I can see is completely different) I want to be dead sure that whatever I buy fits. In order to do that, I think my best bet is buying from a place that can get me set up on multiple and physical bikes while doing measurements on a trainer. I just don't think that going off of lots of internet research on geometry and then basing an online purchase on that is really all that smart when I have no physical experience with what those dimensions mean. 

Since the prices pretty much start at $2,000 for the race oriented bikes that local shops sell, I will have to go from those prices. I don't mind paying it for now if the advantages are that they can fit me just perfectly on a bike for free, and that I get free maintenance from the shop on it (while trying to learn from them on how to maintain and fix it which is more valuable to me). 

The Motobecane does look like a pretty high value bike though =). It's tempting for the price, but I don't know if I can feel totally comfortable going for it.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> Good advice. The only thing that's missing is that I'll already be riding the crap out of my current tri bike for a year in preparation for the real thing. I am just doing early research on what I should eventually be looking into when I am ready for the bike I want to serve as a racing machine for the next few years - especially if an early deal arises. That way I won't be wasting money in an uninformed decision about what really will work as you said.
> 
> For the meantime since I'm in Canada and the season is ending, I'm going to join spin classes to learn how to properly train over the winter until the 2011 season comes along and there are outdoor classes available again.


You missed the entire point of my post.

What you need to be working on BEFORE you spend $5,000 on a new bike is truly understanding your road bike fit to the point that when you spend the $5,000, it won't be wasted on a poor fitting bike. Riding a TT bike does zero for your understanding of what is the right fit for you on a road bike.

Look in the classifieds of this or any other site.....and I'd bet more then 1/2 the high zoot bikes for sale are because of poor fit....IME

Len


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Len J said:


> You missed the entire point of my post.
> 
> What you need to be working on BEFORE you spend $5,000 on a new bike is truly understanding your road bike fit to the point that when you spend the $5,000, it won't be wasted on a poor fitting bike. Riding a TT bike does zero for your understanding of what is the right fit for you on a road bike.
> 
> ...


Woops, sorry I guess I just didn't address it properly. Look ahead to what I just responded to about buying a bike online. 

"To be honest, I have nothing against spending $800 as opposed to $2,000-4,000 on a bike, and I even believe now that the differences are probably marginal.

However, since this is my first road geometry bike ever (besides tri which I can see is completely different) I want to be dead sure that whatever I buy fits. In order to do that, I think my best bet is buying from a place that can get me set up on multiple and physical bikes while doing measurements on a trainer. I just don't think that going off of lots of internet research on geometry and then basing an online purchase on that is really all that smart when I have no physical experience with what those dimensions mean."

The point I'm making of buying from the shop is based on this, and not on the prices of the bikes they sell.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

olr1 said:


> ...and by 2012, that $5000 bike will be worth $1500-$2000....


Yeah I can see that with much of the price being justified by 'the latest technology', which by that point won't be the latest anymore. This is why I have lowered my price point to something that offers what will work 99% as well but offers much better bang for my buck, which I can spend elsewhere like on a coach.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

TurboDance said:


> Woops, sorry I guess I just didn't address it properly. Look ahead to what I just responded to about buying a bike online.
> 
> "To be honest, I have nothing against spending $800 as opposed to $2,000-4,000 on a bike, and I even believe now that the differences are probably marginal.
> 
> ...


Good luck getting a spot on fit that way. For a serious cyclist, that will only be a starting point that then you modify as your fitness changes as well as you learning what really works for you. I've had the same fit done by the same system by 2 different certified fitters, and both fits were different. That's the bad news, but the good news is that asking about the differences and the effect on the bike taught me a bunch about the biases that the fitters brought to the fitting. It also helped me make personal decisions about my own fit. The one thing (long term) you can't abdicate to someone else, IMO, is your fit on a bike...you have to own it. But if you do own it then you'll be less likely to buy bikes that don't fit you in the future. I know my fit well enough that I can look at a geometry and pretty quickly tell if it will work for me both fit wise and aesteticially (will I have to do something crazy to get it to fit like uber spacers, or crazy seat post). IME, you can't buy that knowledge (unless you get damn lucky the first time), you have to try different fits over time and ride the hell out of them.

IME

Len


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

Len J said:


> Good luck getting a spot on fit that way. For a serious cyclist, that will only be a starting point that then you modify as your fitness changes as well as you learning what really works for you. I've had the same fit done by the same system by 2 different certified fitters, and both fits were different. That's the bad news, but the good news is that asking about the differences and the effect on the bike taught me a bunch about the biases that the fitters brought to the fitting. It also helped me make personal decisions about my own fit. The one thing (long term) you can't abdicate to someone else, IMO, is your fit on a bike...you have to own it. But if you do own it then you'll be less likely to buy bikes that don't fit you in the future. I know my fit well enough that I can look at a geometry and pretty quickly tell if it will work for me both fit wise and aesteticially (will I have to do something crazy to get it to fit like uber spacers, or crazy seat post). IME, you can't buy that knowledge (unless you get damn lucky the first time), you have to try different fits over time and ride the hell out of them.
> 
> IME
> 
> Len


Thanks for the insight again Len. That's a good point that there are probably different schools of thought on what works best between different fitters. I am going to try to ask as many questions as I can during the fitting (haha, I may even unknowingly to them record the conversation on my iphone for recallection), and see what the different factors all mean while feeling it riding on the trainer. In this way I hope that I can achieve a fit that feels right, but also one I know enough about to understand the implications. It's likely enough that I'll have to change things around again once I ride it for a while, but I hope to at least accomplish finding a frame through the fitting session that fits me well enough to have modest leeway to do those modifications.


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## SilentAssassin (Jul 29, 2010)

The Answer: All you need is $899 and you'll be racing with the likes of Menchov and Contador up Mount Ventoux in no time. That's assuming you don't need a size 56/58cm frame because they are sold out in both colors - orange being my favorite BTW but I'm sure you already knew that by my avatar.  

https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/super_strada.htm










Now you also might want to consider getting the right gear, so you can look good in 1st place too: :8:


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## SilentAssassin (Jul 29, 2010)

TurboDance said:


> Hahaha, that's the potential of very high value bikes, for sure.
> 
> To be honest, I have nothing against spending $800 as opposed to $2,000-4,000 on a bike, and I even believe now that the differences are probably marginal.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about it, I'm sure it's sold out in your size any way. Once you familiarize yourself with the sport more you'll know what geometry you'll need and then you can save hundreds like the rest of us.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Spend the money on two good sets of wheels. A lightweight aluminum clincher that you'll use for training, and some deep 50+mm carbon wheels for racing. Spend the rest on the bike. Though, since you like SRAM, and are just starting out, I'd suggest Rival or Force.


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## blr33439 (Sep 2, 2010)

Once you get above $1000, your speed gain per dollar goes down significantly. It is more about want than need. We all like the flashy parts and saving weight, especially when going up hill. That said, you should check out the tests any internet search will find on the advantages of aero designs compared to standard frames. Needless to say, the performance differences are small. The least aerodynamic part of the bike is the rider. Proper form is the biggest improvement you can make on aerodynamics. Buy what you like that is quality and looks cool. That is the best bang for your buck. Debating over a few grams and claims of more aerodynamic miss the real point, just get out and ride.


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## SilentAssassin (Jul 29, 2010)

Bring one less water bottle too, that'll shed some weight.


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## nfosterma (Jan 24, 2007)

Since the prices pretty much start at $2 said:


> It sounds like you have changed your thinking from your original post, and that's probably a good thing. Do you have any money saved that you could purchase a bike now? If you wait to order it until next August, you won't be racing (if that is your ultimate goal) until 2012. If you can buy now, you can train through the winter on your trainer, and also have the flexibility to ride outside if the weather cooperates. You can continue to save through the winter to purchase the other items that you will need to begin competing next spring instead of the following year.
> 
> To quote Warren Miller "if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do."
> 
> Good luck.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

nfosterma said:


> It sounds like you have changed your thinking from your original post, and that's probably a good thing. Do you have any money saved that you could purchase a bike now? If you wait to order it until next August, you won't be racing (if that is your ultimate goal) until 2012. If you can buy now, you can train through the winter on your trainer, and also have the flexibility to ride outside if the weather cooperates. You can continue to save through the winter to purchase the other items that you will need to begin competing next spring instead of the following year.
> 
> To quote Warren Miller "if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do."
> 
> Good luck.


Haha! I believe most of my downfall with my current dislocating shoulder injury was caused by that excact quote. However insightful, some things have to wait. I'm having surgery, in about a month, and recovery is a legitimate 3 years until fully healed. The 1st year is the one that the most counts though. Unfortunately, because of that limitation, I will be training on my current bike towards a 2012 goal anyways. I am treating that target as if it's next year anyways.


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## TurboDance (Sep 28, 2010)

SilentAssassin said:


> Bring one less water bottle too, that'll shed some weight.


I just peed 27 times without drinking. Does that count?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you need this; all other frames suck:

http://www.nytro.com/index.cfm/product/?ProductID=5378


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*in the immortal words*

of some hack named Eddy Merckx

"Ride Up Grades, Don't buy Upgrades"

We have a 'friendly' race every saturday and there is nothing more amusing than seeing guys with really fancy and expensive bikes bewildered how the guy on a steel bike with a steel fork can be 'in the mix, week in, week out'. How one of the very fastest has switched and is now whupping them on an AL CX bike w/ road wheels (he rides his cx bike all cx-season so he is used to the change in position) and a 48t big ring.

to sum it all up

you can't buy speed, or not enough to make it matter


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*in the immortal words*

of some hack named Eddy Merckx

"Ride Up Grades, Don't buy Upgrades"

We have a 'friendly' race every saturday and there is nothing more amusing than seeing guys with really fancy and expensive bikes bewildered how the guy on a steel bike with a steel fork can be 'in the mix, week in, week out'. How one of the very fastest has switched and is now whupping them on an AL CX bike w/ road wheels (he rides his cx bike all cx-season so he is used to the change in position) and a 48t big ring.

to sum it all up

you can't buy speed, or not enough to make it matter


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## dualpivot (Oct 25, 2009)

*world's fastest production bicycle*



TurboDance said:


> That said, I'm a 25 year old trying to start up a life and don't have unlimited funds, but I'm willing to save as much as possible coming into next year (I'm in Canada so my winter will be spent on a trainer anyways) and set a $5,000 budget for the fastest road rocket that my money can purchase. Also, I have a favored local cycling shop that should be able to score me a deal next August when all of their frames can be purchased cheaper, and I am thinking I should stick to that store's brand names for ease of maintenance and warranty.


There is a bike that is faster than others, given equal engines. It's not uncommon to see listings for this bike for sale because the owners can't ride with others since they leave them in the dust. This bike holds the record for crossing the country in RAAM, a 4-man team did the 3000 miles in 5 days, 1 hour.

The bike is the Lightning F-40. $5,000 is a bit shy for a new one, but will easily score you a used P-38 bike that can be upgraded to the F-40 for that much cheddar.


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