# Tubeless



## gasman777 (Jan 20, 2015)

For my own learning. I've read good reviews on mtn bike tubeless but have read mixed reviews for road bikes. If your wheel can handle tubeless, is there any real draw backs on road bikes? I've read that once you have an actual flat that won't seal itself up, that its a huge mess...but the other side is....how awesome it is to not carry co2 or tubes and just keep riding....are there other advantages or disadvantages for road bikes?


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

You still have to carry those things. If you end up with a puncture or cut that won't seal, you need a tube and a boot to get you home.

Also, punctures don't always seal instantly. You will need a way to top off your air


The main benefit of road tubeless is reduced likelihood of small punctures forcing you to patch, and some reduction in pinch flats, which can allow you to run lower pressures with less risk.

If your rides are on hard clean pavement, and you aren't prone to flats, the benefits are fairly minimal.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Why would you not have to carry a tube and a way to inflate it? It's not like they're 'flat proof'...As Migen21 posted you have to carry the exact same stuff you'd normally have, possibly more. Tubeless tires are tight, so you'll need levers to get the bead off the rim. Sealant is a big mess, so I used to bring a shop rag...which wasn't enough the time my tire got well and truly slashed. I used road tubeless for years, not anymore. Mountain bike, yes. Road, no.


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## gasman777 (Jan 20, 2015)

Makes sense


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

One riders tubeless experience 
https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/04/01/coffee-cream-cruise/


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

redondoaveb said:


> One riders tubeless experience
> https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/04/01/coffee-cream-cruise/


That was hilarious!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

the other thing is, even if a hole seals, there is still a great chance that its latex plug will become unseal as the tire wears down in like, 100-200 miles. Then you're screw. This happens to me in just 1 subsequent ride on a tire that just had about 300-400 miles on it.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Why would you not have to carry a tube and a way to inflate it? It's not like they're 'flat proof'...As Migen21 posted you have to carry the exact same stuff you'd normally have, possibly more. Tubeless tires are tight, so you'll need levers to get the bead off the rim. *Sealant is a big mess*, so I used to bring a shop rag...which wasn't enough the time my tire got well and truly slashed. I used road tubeless for years, not anymore. Mountain bike, yes. Road, no.


This is the primary reason I have no interest in trying tubeless.

Not to mention that I probably get no more than 1 flat per year, if that. Tubes are cheap. They're also not that heavy - REALLY! :idea:

And are tubeless really more puncture resistant? That all depends. Last year, I was on a club ride where traffic made these two potholes unavoidable. I rode through them and so did the rider behind me. Guess who had two flats (tires trashed) and had to call Uber for a ride home? Not I.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

redondoaveb said:


> One riders tubeless experience
> https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/04/01/coffee-cream-cruise/


I love Seth Davidson's blog, he's hilarious.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

cobra_kai said:


> I love Seth Davidson's blog, he's hilarious.


Yep, Wanky's the man!


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

We really need a sticky objective thread discussing the pros and cons of tubeless as this has been debated about a dozen times in the last few years. If there can be three stickys on Chinese carbon wheels, then this topic deserves one too.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cooskull said:


> We really need a sticky objective thread discussing the pros and cons of tubeless as this has been debated about a dozen times in the last few years. If there can be three stickys on Chinese carbon wheels, then this topic deserves one too.


Well if we do that, we must also have stickies on the following beaten to death topics:

Wide vs. narrow tires
Lower pressure vs. higher pressure
Rim brakes vs. disc brakes


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

I've gone tubeless on my fatbike and my cross bike (with the gravel wheels) with no issues but I really don't see a point in going tubeless on the road. I don't flat that often and it's a pretty easy change when I do. I don't know a lot of guys running tubeless on the road but the one time I did see it he got a puncture and the sealant didn't seem to work. Ended up calling a cab home.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Well if we do that, we must also have stickies on the following beaten to death topics:
> 
> Wide vs. narrow tires
> Lower pressure vs. higher pressure
> Rim brakes vs. disc brakes


Even in the movie _Groundhog Day_ there *was* a way to end the madness. If the sticky threads won't work maybe I'll try binge drinking and some one night stands next to see if those break the loop...


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Think the Sticky is a great idea.
As written many times before, I've been a fan of TL since Stans started the tubeless conversion kits for non-TL rims, going back 8 or 9 years at least.
To me the real advantage is being able to ride a narrower tire with the feel of a larger one, and since I'm a larger rider (and should be on 25's at least) one of my frames won't fit a 25 so I'm able to run a TL 23 with the feel of a 25.
I realize this is a non-issue on many newer frames that allow spacing for larger tires but it works for me.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Upsides:
- ability to run lower pressure without increasing the risk of a pinch flat
- significantly lower rolling resistance (apparently)
- sealant works pretty well, in my experience

Downsides:
- there's a direct correlation between how tight the beads are and how well the tire seals. Essentially, the tighter the bead the better. This makes mounting good tubeless tires a pain.
- screwing around with taping rims. Then there's the issue of damaging/shifting the tape while mounting/dismounting tires. On top of all this, there's no industry standards for tubeless setups so you're never quite sure if a given rim/tape/tire combo will work well.
- expense. Valves, sealant, tape, tires. None of this is cheap. There are homebrew alternatives to all of this but usually these don't work as well.

Mixed issues:
- sealant being a mess: pull the valve core and install sealant after mounting the tire. No mess. If you blow a tire catastrophically, it can make a mess but at least you're outside. Also, in my experience sealant doesn't leave a ton of residue on the inside of a tire unless you live in a really hot/dry area and constantly need to refill the tire.
- getting a cut in a tubeless tire is a real pain as installing a tube on a tubeless tires is really tricky, especially on the side on the road. One the upside, tubeless sidewalls are generally much tougher than non-tubeless sidewall which makes getting a cut somewhat less common on tubeless tires.
- tubeless tires weigh more than regular tires but about the same as a regular tire + tube.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Hiro11 said:


> One the upside, tubeless sidewalls are generally much tougher than non-tubeless sidewall which makes getting a cut somewhat less common on tubeless tires.


I have seen tubeless tires that had paper thin sidewalls cut when going over big bumps.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Hiro11 said:


> Downsides:
> 
> - screwing around with taping rims. Then there's the issue of damaging/shifting the tape while mounting/dismounting tires. On top of all this, there's no industry standards for tubeless setups so you're never quite sure if a given rim/tape/tire combo will work well.


Not if you use a rim without spoke holes. Then it's a non issue.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Not if you use a rim without spoke holes. Then it's a non issue.


Not to seem ignorant, but how do you lace a wheel that doesn't have any spoke holes?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Not to seem ignorant, but how do you lace a wheel that doesn't have any spoke holes?


No spoke holes on the inside. 
You never seen a Mavic wheel? UST wheel? Shimano and Easton Tubless rims are this way as well.

Shimano Dura Ace Tubeless


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> No spoke holes on the inside.
> You never seen a Mavic wheel? UST wheel? Shimano and Easton Tubless rims are this way as well.
> 
> Shimano Dura Ace Tubeless



How do you get the nipples inside the rims? Am I missing something?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> How do you get the nipples inside the rims? Am I missing something?


Threaded nipple in the rim.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Threaded nipple in the rim.


Interesting. I learn something new every day!


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

With THE RIGHT RIM tubeless tires are easy to mount and inflate. It's always a good idea to carry a tube in case the tire has a cut that won't seal, but in six years of running tubeless I've only had to resort to a tube once. There is a small learning curve for mounting and inflating tires.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

changingleaf said:


> With THE RIGHT RIM tubeless tires are easy to mount and inflate. It's always a good idea to carry a tube in case the tire has a cut that won't seal, but in six years of running tubeless I've only had to resort to a tube once. There is a small learning curve for mounting and inflating tires.


What is this magic rim you're talking about? Pretty much every tubeless compatible rim I've mounted tubeless tires on has been more difficult than most non-tubeless set-ups. Getting normal clinchers on the new tubeless Zipp alloy rims is a pain in the ass. For anyone. The whole idea is that they fit tightly so they seal well. If you have an 'easy' to mount tire/rim combo it's most likely not as safe. 
If you get a flat that the sealant won't work on it's a big mess...no question about it. You WILL get sealant everywhere and it WILL be a pain to get your tire back on once everything is covered in it. 
If 1-2 flats a year are 'too many' maybe these riders should take another sport. I am completely over tubeless for road use. Still convinced it's the only way to go for mountain bikes, but not for road.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> If 1-2 flats a year are 'too many' maybe these riders should take another sport.


Or get more rugged tires AND watch where you are riding.



cxwrench said:


> Still convinced it's the only way to go for mountain bikes, but not for road.


For my mountain bike, I use these:

Bontrager Thorn Resistant Tube (700c, Presta Valve) - www.trekbicyclesuperstore.com 

Kenda Thornproof Tube - Outside Outfitters


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> What is this magic rim you're talking about? Pretty much every tubeless compatible rim I've mounted tubeless tires on has been more difficult than most non-tubeless set-ups. Getting normal clinchers on the new tubeless Zipp alloy rims is a pain in the ass. For anyone. The whole idea is that they fit tightly so they seal well. If you have an 'easy' to mount tire/rim combo it's most likely not as safe.


I don't agree with your assumption that ease of tire mounting (getting the tire beads in the rim channel) has an impact on tire safety. How easy it is to get the tire beads over the rim is purely a function of how deep and wide the rim's center channel is- the deeper it is the easier the tire is to mount. However once the tire is fully inflated, there are different factors that will determine how difficult it will be for that tire to come off (defined as the beads becoming unseated). These are:

1) Bead shelf diameter- this is totally independent of the center channel diameter
2) Does the bead shelf have a lip on it to keep the tire from going into the center channel
3) Use of sealant which effectively glues the beads in place.

IME the sealant "glues" the bead in place so well that I have to pry pretty hard to get the beads off the shelf and back into the center channel when I dismount a tire. In the event of a catastrophic flat, I have little doubt the beads would stay mounted in the bead seats long enough to come to stop. I recall Lennard Zinn writing that he once rode a completely flat tubeless tire for 1/4 mile without the tire becoming unseated.

Of course this would not be the case with a ghetto tubeless setup.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

There is a learning curve and tubeless may not be for everybody. It is true, if you get a flat that wont seal you will get some sealant on you when you remove the tire and install a tube. Sealant isn't necessary for tubeless, but the tape has to be perfect and the tire and rim bead area has to be clean or a small amount of air can leak. I always use a lever to get the tire off, but not to put one on. There a few rims I've tried that work well and others that don't. Many do not work well. Not all rim designers seem to understand what a good tubeless ready rim should be shaped like. A tire doesn't have to fit tight to seal well because all tubeless road tire beads measure less than 622mm when slack. But, a tire that fits tight may inflate easier because it will not be excessively loose in the center channel of the rim. Few rim-brake rims have got this right. Pacenti's original SL23 rims were difficult to mount tires on because the the center channel of his rim had a diameter that was too large so there wasn't enough slack, but now the new ones have this solved.

To mount a tire by hand on a tubeless rim it is by far easiest to begin the installation opposite the valve because the valve sits in the middle of the channel and will require the tire to have to stretch further to get around the rest of the rim. I'm sure this has been written about many times before. The tire bead needs to be pushed into the center of the rim and worked around to seat at the valve area last, and repeat with the other side. Remove the tire at the valve area first. The tire bead must be pushed to the center channel of the rim (unseated) on both sides before attempting to remove it from the rim. When inflating a tire make sure the tire is around the valve and the bead is not sitting on the valve. 

Regardless, here's two rim brake rims that I like because tires can be mounted by hand, tires inflate relatively easy, and they stay seated after being deflated.
Easton R90SL, Pacenti Forza

These rims work great tubeless, tires inflate relatively easy, and tires can be mounted by hand, but they don't have a wide enough bead seat, therefore the tire bead slips to the center of the rim when all the air is let out. Though, in my experience a small puncture does not deflate the tire enough to let ALL the air out so these generally keep the tire seated at very, very low pressure.
Stan's Alpha 340, Boyd Altamont, DT Swiss R460.

This rim has a nice bead seat that keeps the tire seated when the air is let out. It also has a deep center channel (smaller center diameter) which allows a tire to be mounted easily by hand, BUT the sides of the inner channel are too steep which causes tires to be difficult to inflate even with a compressor. The steep center channel makes it too hard for the air to push the tire out of the center of the rim. It's a major nuisance. The only way I was able to get a typical tubeless road tire on this rim was to take the valve core out and use a conical nozzle directed right into the valve hole. -Reynolds Assault tubeless ready rim.

I can't go into every rim here I've tested and I haven't tried many wheels from Shimano, Fulcrum or Mavic, but they work on the same principal and some are better than others.

Tire variation can play a role as well, but among tubeless specific road tires I've found them all to be fairly similar in size.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Hiro11 said:


> Upsides:
> - significantly lower rolling resistance (apparently)


I disagree, tubeless are almost always worse rolling resistance than a comparable clincher tire.

One exception seems to be this tubeless "compatible", Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR tire.
Blather 'bout Bikes: Holy Moly...Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR

But it's a racing-specific tire, is quite thin, and probably not very durable.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

tom_h said:


> I disagree, tubeless are almost always worse rolling resistance than a comparable clincher tire.
> 
> One exception seems to be this tubeless "compatible", Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR tire.
> Blather 'bout Bikes: Holy Moly...Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR
> ...


I disagree with your disagreement.  It's true that rolling resistance is more brand dependent than tubed/tubeless setup dependent. However it's not true that tubeless tires "almost always" have higher rolling resistance. It's also not true that finding tubeless tires with low rolling resistance is difficult or that those tires are compromised in other ways. For example, the Schwalbe One Pro is likely the most widely used tubeless road tire and it has superb rolling resistance in a lab:
Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless Rolling Resistance Review
Note that several tubeless tires rank very highly in that site's ranking.

Also, other tests have shown that holding brand / rubber composition constant, tubeless setups perform significantly better:
Clinchers, tubulars and tubeless - which tyre system is the fastest? (video) - Cycling Weekly

Note that they're using the Vittorias you reference in all three configurations.

I tend to take all of this with a grain of salt. Suffice it to say that if you go with One Pros, you apparently are getting a very low rolling resistance setup.


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## Stoneman (Mar 1, 2009)

tom_h said:


> I disagree, tubeless are almost always worse rolling resistance than a comparable clincher tire.


That's crazy talk! Tubeless rolls way better than tubes for a comparable tire.


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## go do it (Sep 12, 2007)

*rolling*



Stoneman said:


> That's crazy talk! Tubeless rolls way better than tubes for a comparable tire.


Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik TL Rolling Resistance Review


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

go do it said:


> Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik TL Rolling Resistance Review


Review: "_Fusion 5 Galactik *doesn't use an anti-puncture belt* under the tread,.. the tubeless sealant *should *seal most small holes instantly_."

Relying on sealant alone is sketchy. When that doesn't work, you've got a gloppy mess on the roadside to remove tire & install a tube.

So why not just use a Conti GP4000S-II clincher having same Crr, and IME can get amazing 3000+ miles tread wear on a rear tire? (165 lb rider) : 
Road Bike Tire Comparison: Continental Grand Prix 4000S II Latex Tube Vs Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik TL 

Or if all out speed is the goal, with lower puncture resistance, use a Vittoria Speed TLR clincher.

Some parts of country might be better suited for tubeless, eg many small thorns on road.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Interesting. I learn something new every day!


Cool to learn, but Mavic has been doing this since 2005. That square rim center makes getting tires on way easier


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

changingleaf said:


> With THE RIGHT RIM tubeless tires are easy to mount and inflate. It's always a good idea to carry a tube in case the tire has a cut that won't seal, but in six years of running tubeless I've only had to resort to a tube once. There is a small learning curve for mounting and inflating tires.


I'm bummed. 1st tubeless (road) 2 weeks ago. I got a puncture that would not seal with the orange seal. I had a tube and it was no issue getting the Schable bobble Pro One tubeless tire off. I just wish OrangeSeal could seal above 60 psi.

I'm on the hunt for sealant that can handle the road pressure. I know Stans is worse than OrangeSeal. So, I'm open to anyone knowing that magic potion sealant.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I don't think the sealant makes that much difference. MTB folks have been using Stans for years below 60psi with no issues.

It's possible you got a bad batch, or didn't shake it well enough before you put it in.

I missed some of the later posts in this thread.

I can attest that mounting Schwalbe G-One Speed (or the old S-One 30mm) on a HED Belgium Plus tubeless rims is easy to do by hand. It doesn't even take much effort. It did take a little bit of aggressive pumping to get the bead to seat with a standard floor pump, but I learned that if you smack the tire a few times while your are pumping, it helps push the sidewalls out so they catch.

And lastly, I would argue with anyone that ride quality with tubeless is better than with tubes. There are multiple reasons, but the simplest one is that you can run the tire softer without increasing your risk of pinch flats.

I have no idea about rolling resistance, and couldn't care less. It's not even on my list of things to consider within the range of tires I'm using. 

I'm currently running two sets of wheels on my RoadMachine. One is a set of Enve 3.4 SES Disc that I run with Conti 4000sII's (and tubes) strictly for road. The other set is the HED Belgium Plus with Schwalbe G-One speed tubeless. I run these at about half the pressure I run the Conti's and they are fantastic (in limited use). Three rides and about 200 miles on sharp gravel and hard pack and not a mark on them.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> I'm bummed. 1st tubeless (road) 2 weeks ago. I got a puncture that would not seal with the orange seal. I had a tube and it was no issue getting the Schable bobble Pro One tubeless tire off. I just wish OrangeSeal could seal above 60 psi.
> 
> I'm on the hunt for sealant that can handle the road pressure. I know Stans is worse than OrangeSeal. So, I'm open to anyone knowing that magic potion sealant.


If you're prone to large punctures in your area, I would seriously consider getting the following tool (especially running Pro Ones which are relatively puncture prone):

Reviewed: Dynaplug Micro Pro tubeless tire repair kit | VeloNews.com

Good item to have for Mtn biking as well.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

tom_h said:


> I disagree, tubeless are almost always worse rolling resistance than a comparable clincher tire.
> 
> One exception seems to be this tubeless "compatible", Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR tire.
> Blather 'bout Bikes: Holy Moly...Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR
> ...


tubeless tires have come a long way - specialized turbo tubeless typically scores the lowest of all clinchers, is lighter than any tire/tube combo, and has an anti-puncture belt. The Pro One is also right up there. I never thought I'd use them, but after too many goat head thorn flats, I started a while ago. Personally, I think a 25mm tubeless on a wide rim runs better than a tubular re road feel.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I tried to go tubeless first time this week, and, I'm still not tubeless.
I've had a set of Pacenti SL25's for 10 months or so on my gravel bike and finally convinced myself to give tubeless a go. Bought some 35mm G-One Allroads and by all accounts should have been a very straight forward setup.

tried installing them "as is" with the tubeless tape that was already on the rims, could not seat them AT ALL by hand, and also tried CO2 and one of those air shot air tanks but could only get around 60% bead engagement (i was also using soapy water)

So i tried another wrap of Stans tape and could get the beads to pop (needed to remove the valve core to get enough volume in there) and hold air, but as soon as I took the pump off the tyre deflated and immediately dropped off the bead hooks. I also tried it with and without sealant but the same result. I spent a couple of days going around in circles, but eventually gave up and stuck a tube in them. I've heard, and am hoping that, this will help them gain some shape and maybe help seating them if I try again in a few days. But not a great experience for me so far.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Look at old car tires-tubed tires were easy enough for people to mount at home (or on the side of the road...) with just a tire iron (and a sailor's vocabulary), but tubeless tires have required special machinery to mount. Now today, we either change the wheel, or call somebody to do the same.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Look at old car tires-tubed tires were easy enough for people to mount at home (or on the side of the road...) with just a tire iron (and a sailor's vocabulary), but tubeless tires have required special machinery to mount. Now today, we either change the wheel, or call somebody to do the same.


My spare wheel did not stay in my jersey pocket when I was riding last night.


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## dmanthree (Aug 22, 2014)

I just had my second g-around with tubeless since I've read they've advanced the state of the art. Got a pair of Schwalbe Pro One tires, the necessary valves, seals, tools, etc. Short story, I'm back with tubes. Longer story, complete pain in the ass. Mounting was OK, getting the initial inflation is a PITA. Tires sealed the rim OK, but lost air more quickly than tube tires despite all my best attempts to locate the leak. And when riding I hit a pot hole (unavoidable) and the tire "burped" off the rim and lost enough air so I had to take it down, install a tube, and then inflate to ride home. Honestly, tubeless bike tires seem, to me, like a solution in search of a problem. Tube tires work so well and are so damned easy to work with I see no reason to complicate your life with tubeless.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

^ ^ ^

For road tires, I'd heartily agree. 
After tire cuts too large to seal, I've watched people struggle roadside to remove & reinstall tubeless with an inner tube, plus the mess of sealant. 
With a clincher, large cuts can be temporarily "booted", and later you can even install an ordinary vulcanizing patch under the cut, if you clean & scuff the clincher properly ... but if it's a sidewall cut I trash the tire.
There may be parts of the USA where tubeless is helpful, eg many sharp thorns on roads.


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## dmanthree (Aug 22, 2014)

tom_h said:


> ^ ^ ^
> 
> For road tires, I'd heartily agree.
> After tire cuts too large to seal, I've watched people struggle roadside to remove & reinstall tubeless with an inner tube, plus the mess of sealant.
> ...


Yes, my point of view is road tires, so I have no idea how valuable tubeless might be on mountain bikes, hybrids, etc. I'm a roadie only, so it's tubes for me.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

dmanthree said:


> Yes, my point of view is road tires, so I have no idea how valuable tubeless might be on mountain bikes, hybrids, etc. I'm a roadie only, so it's tubes for me.


I still use tubes in my mountain bikes as well. Thorns are no problem. I use these:

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/pro...615000&adl=1&gclid=CKLhkKiymNQCFRhWDQodJToJ8Q


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

I've only tried one tire / wheel combo tubless on my gravel bike ant taht was 40mm WTB Nano's on Pacenti SL25 rims - they popped right on with a hand pump. Maybe wider tires are easier. I also carry a tire plug kit just in case I get a hole too big for the orange sealant to fix. The orange seal has fixed a few holes I didn't even know happened, so seems to work pretty well. 

Don't really have much interest in road tubless - Conti 4000s with latex tubes are pretty smooth and roll well.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Here's an article published by Compass Tires recently regarding road tubeless
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/05/29/the-trouble-with-road-tubeless/


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