# Sapim Laser spokes on disc road wheels? (And intro 😊)



## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

I've been lurking on this forum for a while and have made a few comments but generally prefer to listen and learn from what others have been so generously sharing. So first, a thank you to those regulars who so kindly share their knowledge and experience. You've help me tremendously. 

I've got a new cross/gravel grinder bike on the way and I'm building a set of wheels that'll be used for mostly road, with occasional use on graded dirt roads but nothing too ******. I'm about 170lbs and tend to be pretty easy on wheels. I wanted something on the (slightly) lighter side, that was wide and tubeless and would take centerlock rotors. I decided on DT 350 hubs (they fit my budget as I work in a shop) with Pacenti SL25s and when looking for spokes I though I'd challenge myself and try using Sapim Lasers. To keep it light I chose alloy nipples. I've built about a dozen or so wheelsets with straight gauge and more recently with DT Comps, but nothing that thin.

I'm still waiting for the rear hub (backordered), but I built up the front last night and was VERY careful about spoke wind-up, and did lots of manual stressing of the spokes. I used a silver sharpie (thanks for that tip Drew Eckhardt!), and after some time finished a very nice wheel with even spoke tensions that is quite true. It was a bit more challenging than using fatter spokes, took some extra time, but wasn't too bad. 

Now, of course I read that Sapim does not recommend using Laser spokes on disc wheels. After some searching I see that some folks do it anyway, but since I've been enjoying this forum, I figured I'd introduce myself and ask those with decidedly more experience than myself if the wheels are fine or if I should de-lace the front and order different spokes. 

Thanks,
Steve


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Over at sister site MTBR, frequent poster Meltingfeather is over 200lbs and has built many 29'er MTB wheelsets with DT Revs for himself and other big boys (same gauges as Laser) and says they work just fine. In fact he claims they work better than fatter spokes due to their elasticity. And he's not one to be doubted either as he's a structural engineer who designs the ultimate pre-stressed structure (a bike wheel is one version) - concrete bridge beams with pre-stressed cables inside.

If you have the stomach for it and don't mind your eyes bleeding, wade through this thread on skinny spokes where he champions them to the bitter end -

Alternative spoke choices (Rev/Comp/Aero)- Mtbr.com

BTW - you didn't get any "marker" tip from me. I've tried a tape flag and it works but I'd rather feel the twist in lasers with my left hand and back off to remove it - two steps forward and one step back so to speak.


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## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

Thanks for the eye bleeding material. It's snowing here and I may just have a go at it...

I searched and saw that the sharpie suggestion was from Drew Eckhardt, I've credited him accordingly.

I agree with just feeling the west in my hand, but since it was my first try with those spokes I figured I'd be a bit more OCD 😁 and closely watch the wind up. 

Steve


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

My last set I built I experimented a little.

I used NOS XTR Centerlocek hubs, Pacenti SL25 rims, and a new spoke combo not tried [by me] before.

I am 210 in season, a bit more now, but with 32 spokes and road use for my SL4 Roubaix, I laced as follows. 32 hole rims, three cross all.

All Sapim. Combo of Race and Lasers. All Disc side leading are Race [14/15] with brass nips. Rear drive trailing side same, the rest of the spokes are Lasers and Alloy nips.

My conceptual-ism being leading upon braking and trailing upon crank power being more loaded, and the not so loaded spokes not needing as mush beef, and being under more tension while static due to lighter ga should un-tension less while the working spokes are working.

Thus of 64 spokes, 24 are Lasers the rest Race. So maybe the wheels weight 60 grams less than all Race. But more importantly the less loaded j bends should stay tighter under loads of the working spokes.

I choose this combo mostly due to my spoke source not stocking the D-lites for me to try. I still think Sapim saying no lasers in disc wheels is BS and just a way to sell more 3.00 ea. cx-rays probably. 

I pay .40 for Race and .80 for Lasers, another reason for my choices.


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## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

@Robt57 - it seems like a well thought out build indeed! How are they holding up?

I just kept it simple with 28 of the same spokes in a 3x front/rear. 😊

S


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Stevereeneo said:


> @Robt57 - it seems like a well thought out build indeed! How are they holding up?
> 
> I just kept it simple with 28 of the same spokes in a 3x front/rear. 
> 
> S


Pretty new yet, so as I said, time will tell. They feel excellent under watts, and I am both and strong and heavy. So moving me up, or under acceleration puts some pork into a wheelset I'd say.  

I went 32 spokes because of the XTR hubs that popped up in boxes for 165.00. I was about to order some CX75 road disk hubs when the NOS hubs fell into my lap. But the M965 XTR last one with Ti axles and the bigger bearings, so on the scheme of longevity also, I went with them. Limited to 10 speed, unless some creative rubing is employed. just a matter of time before I try that somewhere. bu with 10 10 speed bikes 11 speed is not exactly on my radar [not until Di2 get me, and I feel it coming]

28 hole disc, I would just do all Race 14/15 probably 3x. Maybe brass nips in the same places I did on the Pacenti SL25/XTR build.

I do have some next project wheels about to hit the stand when the spokes get here. A 650B 32x 3x 14/15 Race spokes just to keep cheap, will use AL nips on these.

Also just got a few pairs of 28h SL23 Pacenti RIMs and BHS hubs for some road wheels, non disc. I will do my fav spoking I have been doing for years [decades] on those. 3x Lasers except Drive Side Rear will be all 14/15s. 

I have wheels like this with Revolutions [14/15 drive sides] I built in the late 90s still in service. Lasers are my Revos these days. ;0 

That includes two 90s made Open Pro sets I have replaced the O-Pro rims with A23s in the last 2 years, using all the original build spokes and just replacing any wonked up AL nips from some clumsy wrenching on my part over the years. ERD close enough to do that...


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

I've got 400+ days on a Velocity Aerohead oc 28 hole, laced to a BHS 210 hub using Race pulling spokes 3x on drive side with lasers everywhere else, with non drive side laced radially. I've switched to brass nipples lately, after having a number fail after 3 years of riding; I'm guessing due to corrosion because I ride year round on the front range of Colorado.

My theory was to make a light wheel feel more stout & decrease the stress on the pushing drive side spokes. A number of years ago I built a similar wheelset with DT Supercomps on the drive side. They felt great til I started breaking spokes right above the nipple. The Supercomp is supposed to be a disc specific spoke, but if it couldn't take the torque from a 160 pounder stomping on them, I certainly wouldn't trust them while grabbing a fistful of front brake going 40+ mph. I['ve also read on mtbr.com that a mechanic says he sees Supercomps fail at a higher rate than any other spoke.

I think that as more people think about which spokes get stressed, and which spokes are just along for the ride, that more folks will be using spokes in a similar fashion.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

twinkles said:


> I've got 400+ days on a Velocity Aerohead oc 28 hole, laced to a BHS 210 hub using Race pulling spokes 3x on drive side with lasers everywhere else


Bet them is some light wheels too. Did you weight them?



> I think that as more people think about which spokes get stressed, and which spokes are just along for the ride, that more folks will be using spokes in a similar fashion.


I know I will, and have been thinking that way from my first set I built. Aeroheads on 6500 hubs with the Revo 14/15 combo mentioned.


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## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

twinkles said:


> I've got 400+ days on a Velocity Aerohead oc 28 hole, laced to a BHS 210 hub using Race pulling spokes 3x on drive side with lasers everywhere else, with non drive side laced radially. I've switched to brass nipples lately, after having a number fail after 3 years of riding; I'm guessing due to corrosion because I ride year round on the front range of Colorado.
> 
> My theory was to make a light wheel feel more stout & decrease the stress on the pushing drive side spokes. A number of years ago I built a similar wheelset with DT Supercomps on the drive side. They felt great til I started breaking spokes right above the nipple. The Supercomp is supposed to be a disc specific spoke, but if it couldn't take the torque from a 160 pounder stomping on them, I certainly wouldn't trust them while grabbing a fistful of front brake going 40+ mph. I['ve also read on mtbr.com that a mechanic says he sees Supercomps fail at a higher rate than any other spoke.
> 
> I think that as more people think about which spokes get stressed, and which spokes are just along for the ride, that more folks will be using spokes in a similar fashion.


Since I've only built the front wheel, do you think I need to use different spokes (thicker) on the DS for the rear?

Based on the reading I've done on this snowy day (yes, Mike my eyes are bleeding, but it was a very informative thread 😳😀) it seems like the Lasers should work fine. I'm open to learning and I'm curious if others think it'll make a big difference. It sure seems like at my weight and for this application, the Lasers should be plenty strong.

Thanks for your input.
S


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

If it is a 32 spoke disc wheel, I might leave it be. If 28 spoke rims/wheels I would probably replace the leading disc side spokes to Sapim Race and maybe brass nips for those 7 spokes, for me @ my weight anyway, for 170lb, I don't know if I would bother if built up already. But I got at least 40 lbs on you.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Whether you want to go against manufacturer recommendations is a choice that only you can make, but prior to doing them in customer builds I rode a year of cx (including a bunch of road riding on that bike) and two years of mtb with Lasers in various disc builds. Nothing in my experience leads me to believe that an adequately spoked and well built disc wheel built with Lasers will be anything but great.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Don't downhill bikes often use CXrays? CXrays are Lasers with a flattened cross section.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Engineering is a bit different on that. Essentially, CX Rays put more cross section in the direction that's important to downhillers. CX Rays can deflect like what side to side, but try getting one to flex fore/aft.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

November Dave said:


> Engineering is a bit different on that. Essentially, CX Rays put more cross section in the direction that's important to downhillers. CX Rays can deflect like what side to side, but try getting one to flex fore/aft.


Ohhh ahhh! The ONLY strain a spoke ever experiences is lengthwise tension.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Just relaying what Sapim has told me. Likely they're concerned about trail detritus etc - not wheel induced loads.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

There are lateral, radial and torsional forces applied to the wheel when it turns under load.
Torsional forces are what is keeping the hub turning at almost the same rate as the rim.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

November Dave said:


> Just relaying what Sapim has told me. Likely they're concerned about trail detritus etc - not wheel induced loads.



Likely IMO, they are concerned about selling the same spoke with one more process for a huge percent of profit over the same spoke before that process.

Why sell Lasers Wholesale for .45 when you can sell CX-ray for 1.94, arbitrary numbers plucked from air. 

As to whether or not it is worth the money, it must be on a few levels given the magnitudes of them out there. Even if a large percent of the user's cost to performance ratio might be a little askew.  [but don't tell them].


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

robt57 said:


> Likely IMO, they are concerned about selling the same spoke with one more process for a huge percent of profit over the same spoke before that process.
> 
> Why sell Lasers Wholesale for .45 when you can sell CX-ray for 1.94, arbitrary numbers plucked from air.
> 
> As to whether or not it is worth the money, it must be on a few levels given the magnitudes of them out there. Even if a large percent of the user's cost to performance ratio might be a little askew.  [but don't tell them].


That's kinda like people buying $5000 bikes when they would go just as fast on $1000 bikes.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> That's kinda like people buying $5000 bikes when they would go just as fast on $1000 bikes.



You mean just as slow? 


But of course, I have always said and still say if you want something and can afford it, you need no ones permission [- wife] for justification.

Me, I am maybe just to cheap to spend near 3.00 a spoke. Although I bought DT Areo-Lites once... Once! 

If I had cx-rays on all the wheels on all my bikes I would have 1-2 less bikes probably.  I fit into the 'I am just as slow' category.... And I ain't letting Sapim mess with my N+# debaclereeee...


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## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

November Dave said:


> Whether you want to go against manufacturer recommendations is a choice that only you can make, but prior to doing them in customer builds I rode a year of cx (including a bunch of road riding on that bike) and two years of mtb with Lasers in various disc builds. Nothing in my experience leads me to believe that an adequately spoked and well built disc wheel built with Lasers will be anything but great.


That's the sense I'm getting from my queries and searches. I'm going to stick with that.



Mike T. said:


> Ohhh ahhh! The ONLY strain a spoke ever experiences is lengthwise tension.


Uh oh! I think we may need Meltingfeather to make a gues appearance to get the facts cleared up 😉 

The link Mike provided in his first post on this thread is ALL about the forces spokes deal with... And a few other things. I highly recommend it.
Just in case you missed it: Alternative spoke choices (Rev/Comp/Aero)- Mtbr.com

Thanks for the friendly and thoughtful advice and suggestions!
Steve


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Stevereeneo said:


> I think we may need Meltingfeather to make a gues appearance to get the facts cleared up


I've asked him a couple of times to put in guest appearances over here and he's obliged. He likes a good debate especially when he knows he's right


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

The wheelset, with a 20 hole Velocity Aerohead, radially laced to a White Industries hub via laser spokes, weighs under 1450 grams, with brass nipples. 

For a buddy, I'm about to build a Pacenti sl23 18/24, radial/2x, with lasers everywhere except pulling drive side, which will be Wheelsmith db, laced to BHS hubs. If I did the math correctly, they should weigh 1430 grams. They should ride quite similar to HED Ardennes wheels, at a much lower price. I don't think the Wheelsmith DBs will make the wheel any stronger, it should just make it feel a bit more stout. Oh, and the Pacenti build will have brass nipples, just to eliminate any weak spots on a low spoke build.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

Lasers or Revolutions are fine for disc builds. Almost all of the carbon MTB wheels I build get Revolution spokes, they're more than strong enough.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

*Sapim Laser spokes on disc road wheels? (And intro )*

Quite a few are jumping on the wagon to dismiss Sapim's claim against their liability of using Lasers for MTB applications but no one seems to have considered the extent of the wheel application range Sapim has analyzed prior to issuing their statement.

In simpler words, how much air the wheel sees before it hits the ground? Under what speed? What load? What moment of inertia? At what angle? Etc, etc, etc

I have no doubt that Lasers may be more than fine for the "normal" applications of rolling through the woods for a lot of people but I tend to believe that dismissing a manufacturer's claim about the limits of use of their products based on the premise " I've done it and it worked so Sapim is wrong" maybe appropriate for one's personal use but totally inappropriate for somebody else's.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

dcgriz said:


> In simpler words, how much air the wheel sees before it hits the ground? Under what speed? What load? What moment of inertia? At what angle? Etc, etc, etc


What does any of that have to do with disc brakes? People race pro-level DH on wheels using Revolution/Laser spokes. Spokes aren't the weak link in the wheel, ever notice when you see taco'd wheels you don't see busted spokes? I don't know of anyone having issues with spokes breaking because the spokes weren't strong enough for the application.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

dgaddis1 said:


> What does any of that have to do with disc brakes? People race pro-level DH on wheels using Revolution/Laser spokes. Spokes aren't the weak link in the wheel, ever notice when you see taco'd wheels you don't see busted spokes? I don't know of anyone having issues with spokes breaking because the spokes weren't strong enough for the application.


I should have clarified it better. Sapim's qualification on the use of Lasers dates back a while, when discs were mostly used for MTB wheels. This goes before the gravel bike fad took over and the road discs with it. The earlier reference on one of the posts about poster Meltingfeather posting on MTBR about 29ers with Revos and Lasers also dates to that period.

The road disc wheels typically do not see the abuse the MTB disc wheels could see so Lasers most probably would be fine if the wheel is not taken to the extremes.


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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

This thread led me to look up prices on the sapim spokes. Thor's prices are really good. Think I'm gonna cancel the revos I have on order for my current project and try the lasers for the first time.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> The road disc wheels typically do not see the abuse the MTB disc wheels could see so Lasers most probably would be fine if the wheel is not taken to the extremes.


What I find faulty with this theorem is that [especially front] braking forces on a disc wheel on a road bike VS MTB. In that it is a LOT easier to skid a front MTB wheel off pist, hell even on pave with a knobby than to get a sticky slick road race tire to let go on pavement. The spokes in my minds eye on the disc road bike are under a lot higher stress dynamics on a disc wheel than MTB under braking due to this.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

robt57 said:


> What I find faulty with this theorem is that [especially front] braking forces on a disc wheel on a road bike VS MTB. In that it is a LOT easier to skid a front MTB wheel off pist, hell even on pave with a knobby than to get a sticky slick road race tire to let go on pavement. The spokes in my minds eye on the disc road bike are under a lot higher stress dynamics on a disc wheel than MTB under braking due to this.


Does it help if you don't just think about braking but about hopping off a boulder and then brake?


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> Does it help if you don't just think about braking but about hopping off a boulder and then brake?


Not really, tire still is not going to have near the same friction I'd speculate. I guess it is either going to stop or slip in that situation. But I get your point...
In my minds eye, does not mean my brain has it right, just what I logically deduce.
And I am never wrong, well except those few thousand times...


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

robt57 said:


> Not really, tire still is not going to have near the same friction I'd speculate. I guess it is either going to stop or slip in that situation. But I get your point...
> In my minds eye, does not mean my brain has it right, just what I logically deduce.
> And I am never wrong, well except those few thousand times...



https://enve.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Homepage_featuredtout_021.jpeg.

I am not quite sure but I believe Enve uses double butted Comps on their MTBs.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> https://enve.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Homepage_featuredtout_021.jpeg.
> 
> I am not quite sure but I believe Enve uses double butted Comps on their MTBs.



DB Comps as is 14/15? Aren't Lasers 14/17 ? I know they are, fishing for your point I guess... It apparently escaped by feeble brain.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Stevereeneo said:


> Since I've only built the front wheel, do you think I need to use different spokes (thicker) on the DS for the rear?


Not with 28 total and a 170 pound rider.

Empirically: big-name boutique wheel manufacturers like Zipp have been running 2.0/1.5mm drive side spokes since the Aerolite/CX-Ray shape which fits through standard hub spoke holes became popular without reported issues.

Mechanically: 

With too few spokes and a heavy rider you might not be happy with the lateral stiffness which is a function of total spoke cross-sectional area and bracing angle; although at 28 total and 170 pounds that's not an issue.

Otherwise I can't come up with any problem.

Fatigue life is dependent on magnitude of the variation and stress cycle count; although that should be rider weight * cog teeth / ring teeth * crank length / flange radius. 

With 170mm cranks, 40mm flange diameter, a 34x34 low gear, and no torque transmitted through the non-drive-side flange you're looking at about 60% of rider weight, less than the compressive load when spokes pass the bottom of the wheel which also includes bike weight.

However, when a trailing spoke passes the bottom the loads in tension and compression are in opposition so the total is lower than it would otherwise be.

Elsewhere you have the same 60% of rider weight which is like the once-per-revolution stress so at a 1:1 gear ratio at worst you'd double your stress cycles. That doesn't look good, although with spoke life dropping from 300,000+ miles to 150,000+ that's not an issue.

This ignores that undamaged spokes don't fail in the middle, and the 2.0mm ends are the same as unbutted spokes.

When I first used DT Revolutions around 1998 I stuck with 2.0/1.8mm Competition spokes for the drive side out of superstition; although on my last two wheel builds I used DT Revolutions all around.


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