# SRAM Newbe Questions - Force vs. Red



## Thad Matthews

Hi All

I am a SRAM newbe. I am currently a Campy user and is seriously thinking about making the leap, I am about 98% there. I have a couple of questions for you that would help me make my decision and which grouppo or combination i will use.

So here goes:

Does the 2010/2011 Force zero loss shifting in both leftt and right shifters?
For the right shifter (rear mech) can you tell the defference between zero loss and no zero loss?
can any of your feel/tell if their is a performance difference between Force and Red shifting?
Can i use a chris king BB with SRAM Cranks?

thanks for your help


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## robdamanii

1: No, only on the front shifter.
2: It does shorten the throw, and I find it much easier to shift in the drops with the zero loss (but that's almost exclusively down to the way my bars are set up.)
3: Can't tell the difference except the rear derailleur Zero Loss
4: Get a SRAM compatible CC BB and you'll be fine.


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## MarvinK

I've got bikes with original SRAM Force (no Zero Loss), SRAM Red & 2010 Force. Unless money is no object, I'd get the Force group. Zero Loss is much more noticeable on the front, where the original levers required a LOT of throw. The rear shifting doesn't so, it's not a big deal--plus you'll have a little play in that shifter to play with (at least that's a bad habit I learned back when I was a Campy user). I got out of the habit when I switched my main bike to Red (no play) and haven't gone back since. 

The cassette and front derailleur are actually better (other than weight) on Force and you don't have the maintenance requirements of ceramic bearings.


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## Clueless Morgan

My 2010 CAAD9-4 has Rival group parts except that the crank is Force. SRAM's website says the Rival is zero loss, but is sure seems like quite a swing to engage an upshift to me. I don't have any experience with other examples of SRAM shifters to compare to. Anyone else compare Rival and Force? Would there be much benefit to upgrading Rival shifters to Force at some point?


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## MarvinK

Force & Rival both only have Zero Loss on the front shifting--you won't notice any difference until you switch to Red. The old SRAM Force/Rival (silver rival) didn't have Zero Loss on the front, and it was a REALLY long throw to shift the front.


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## jermso

MarvinK said:


> Force & Rival both only have Zero Loss on the front shifting--you won't notice any difference until you switch to Red. The old SRAM Force/Rival (silver rival) didn't have Zero Loss on the front, and it was a REALLY long throw to shift the front.



???

u mean force/rival only have zero-loss at the back not front!


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## asad137

jermso said:


> u mean force/rival only have zero-loss at the back not front!


No, there's definitely a little play in the rear shifter before it does anything. In the front, if in the small ring, pushing on the lever _immediately_ starts moving the derailleur. I just checked on my Rival bike.

Also:
Rival: http://www.sram.com/node/82/brand/sram-road/src/series
Force: http://www.sram.com/node/68/brand/sram-road/src/series

Asad


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## jermso

asad137 said:


> No, there's definitely a little play in the rear shifter before it does anything. In the front, if in the small ring, pushing on the lever _immediately_ starts moving the derailleur. I just checked on my Rival bike.
> 
> Also:
> Rival: http://www.sram.com/node/82/brand/sram-road/src/series
> Force: http://www.sram.com/node/68/brand/sram-road/src/series
> 
> Asad


i stand corrected.

all sram gruppos are zeroloss in front.

only red has zeroloss front & back.


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## overlord2121

if you use Red Shifters with 2010 Force or 2010 Rival Rear Derailleur will you still have the Zero-Loss in the rear? or do you need to have the Red Rear Derailleur and Red Shifters to have the Zero-Loss in the rear?


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## MarvinK

Just the shifters.


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## overlord2121

not bad. why don't more people just use, a Red Right Shifter with Rival Left Shifter and Rear Derailleur? Get the Performance of Zero-Loss in the rear and save some money on Rear Derailleur and Left Shifter.


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## MarvinK

Probably looks.. and it takes more work to find single shifters.


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## billwcc

As to cost, if you only want the derailleurs and brifters, and are ok with buying on eBay, you can get Red for only about $100 more than Force. If you're going to spend that much money, why not drop the extra and go all the way with Red?


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## Ronman

If I read it correctly in Competitive Cyclist the new Force shifters have zero loss technology like Red. Of course the Red shifters are only $100 more than Force, and have the carbon shift levers vs the Ti of Force.


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## robdamanii

No, they don't. The new Force is Zero Loss front only.


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## roadie01

I'm new to Sram and set my bike up with complete force except for the shifters and the crank, I'm running Red for those. So far they have been great, but then I only have a few short lunch rides in on them. The reason I went with the Red shifters is the left offers a trim function for when you are in the upper cogs in the rear and the big ring up front. The choice to run a Red crank is purely vain, it just looks better to me. 

Another consideration to a Red/Force mix, by swaping to Red shifters and crank you save the most weight for your buck. 

If you pay close attention most pros run a Red front deraileur with a steel cage from a Force deraileur because the stiffer steel shift cage is better than the titanium verson of the Red. 

To keep your drivetrain quiet run Force, Ultegra, or DuraAce for the cassette. They are all compatible and the hollow power dome while lighter acts like an amplifier to all drivetrain noise. 

From what I've read the Chris King BB uses an adapter to compensate for the tapered crank spindle used by the Sram GPX system and this can creek. I would recomend using a Sram BB, the ceramic will spin more freely and weight a few grams less. But if you ride in harsh conditions the stainless steel BB is well worth the price of a few grams.


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## gospastic

roadie01 said:


> I'm new to Sram and set my bike up with complete force except for the shifters and the crank, I'm running Red for those. So far they have been great, but then I only have a few short lunch rides in on them. The reason I went with the Red shifters is the left offers a trim function for when you are in the upper cogs in the rear and the big ring up front. The choice to run a Red crank is purely vain, it just looks better to me.


The front Force shifter also has trim.


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## asad137

gospastic said:


> The front Force shifter also has trim.


As does Rival (heck and probably Apex too).

Asad


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## Ronman

Yep, I just checked the Sram web site and you're correct robdamani. Looks like it's Red shifters for me. Thanks for the heads up! 



robdamanii said:


> No, they don't. The new Force is Zero Loss front only.


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## ZoomBoy

asad137 said:


> As does Rival (heck and probably Apex too).
> 
> Asad


yes on the Apex


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## alaris

gospastic said:


> The front Force shifter also has trim.


Indeed it does. :thumbsup: 

HOWEVER, I've got a 2010 Force groupset on my Kestrel Evoke SL and have yet to figure out how the darn thing works. I've had this thing to the LBS numerous times and they claim it is adjusted correctly. Indeed - the shifts are perfect however I've tried all shift combinations and see no difference in the 'trim'. 

The FD shifter has basically two 'clicks' to it. With the chain on the large chainring and the first click being applied on the shifter the FD movement is zero. I've learned to live with it - but it would be nice if I could learn from one of you experts on how this thing is supposed to work. :mad2: 

Is there a trick to this? Sure would like to find out...


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## aengbretson

alaris said:


> Indeed it does. :thumbsup:
> 
> HOWEVER, I've got a 2010 Force groupset on my Kestrel Evoke SL and have yet to figure out how the darn thing works. I've had this thing to the LBS numerous times and they claim it is adjusted correctly. Indeed - the shifts are perfect however I've tried all shift combinations and see no difference in the 'trim'.
> 
> The FD shifter has basically two 'clicks' to it. With the chain on the large chainring and the first click being applied on the shifter the FD movement is zero. I've learned to live with it - but it would be nice if I could learn from one of you experts on how this thing is supposed to work. :mad2:
> 
> Is there a trick to this? Sure would like to find out...


Takes a bit of fine-tuning of the cable tension. Too much and you don't get any movement. Too little and you can't shift into the big ring. Basically you want the minimum tension that allows you to shift smoothly into the big ring up front. Back off the tension until this no longer happens and then return just to that point. Then that first click of your front shifter should give you a few mm (we're talking less than 3mm here) of FD movement.


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## alaris

aengbretson said:


> Then that first click of your front shifter should give you a few mm (we're talking less than 5mm here) of FD movement.


Looks like I have a little tuning to do then - mine must be way too tight.. 5mm +/- sure would be nice.

thanks!


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## XR4Ti

aengbretson said:


> Takes a bit of fine-tuning of the cable tension. Too much and you don't get any movement. Too little and you can't shift into the big ring. Basically you want the minimum tension that allows you to shift smoothly into the big ring up front. Back off the tension until this no longer happens and then return just to that point. Then that first click of your front shifter should give you a few mm (we're talking less than 3mm here) of FD movement.


+1. Too much tension will reduce the trim movement from a little to none at all.


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## bruce_wayne

I've got the latest version of Rival on my first bike. When I bought my second bike, I upgraded to the 2010 Force gruppo to see if I would notice a difference and for an additional $120, also switched out the Force shifters and crank for Red.

So what are my impressions as a Cat 5 racer with a year of riding experience? I personally can't tell any difference in performance or stiffness between the Red and Rival cranks. As for the right-hand RD shifters, upshifting (moving chain to a smaller rear cog) is a breeze with both Red and Rival - a child could do it. 

I do notice a slight difference in downshifting (moving to a bigger cog) and I guess maybe this would be a result of the Red having zero-loss (?). For me, with Rival downshifting seems to require more "feel" or touch. My shifting has gotten more reliable with practice and dialing in the proper tension with the barrel adjustor. Downshifting with the Red RD shifter, OTOH, from the outset has been more automatic but at the same time a little "clunkier" feel. Do I prefer one over the other?, not really. The action is a little different between my Red and Rival but would I say one performs better for me than the other?, prolly not. It also could be the adjustment and set up causing the differences. As has been said by others on this forum, a properly adjusted Rival setup will kick butt on a poorly adjusted Red group any day.

If you've got the extra $, splurge for the Force, you won't regret it. OTOH, if you want to save a few bucks, get the Rival - it performs great and is nothing to be ashamed of.

That's my opinion, YMMV as they say.


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## 95zpro

Does anyone know the difference in weights between the Force and Red? Is it worth going with the Red or would Force be the better option? Opinions are appreciated...


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## ZoSoSwiM

Many people will agree that the upcharge of Red instead of Force isn't really worth the performance difference. Most people will get by perfectly well on Force. 

I'm currently building a new bike with a full Force gruppo and I'm pretty damn excited about it. I simply couldn't justify the cost to go full Red.


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## alaris

95zpro said:


> Does anyone know the difference in weights between the Force and Red? Is it worth going with the Red or would Force be the better option? Opinions are appreciated...


http://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/component-weights.html

Scroll down that page and you will find what you are looking for.


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## roadie01

I agree that the price jump from Force to Red is not typically worth it. What I did was build up my bike with Red Shifters and Crank. I purchased an 8 piece Force group for about $850, then went looking and found a nearly new set of Red shifters for $300, a new Red Crank for $315, and a new Force BB with Ceramic bearings installed for $99. Then in the spring I'll sell the new Force Shifters and Crank for $300 and $250 respectively. This makes my total out of pocket cost about $955. 

Here's the end result. 15.02 lbs as pictured.


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## Butscut

Folks, Please be kind..I'm new here.

Have been considering buying a SRAM red groupset to build up a new bike recently, when a mate put me onto Alibaba. Many outlets are listing a full 9 piece SRAM red groupset for around US$400. Over here in Oz its more like US$2k. Are these groupset from China fake or are they a bloody good bargin. 

Would be interested to hear any feedback you may have.

Thanks


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## Camilo

95zpro said:


> Does anyone know the difference in weights between the Force and Red? Is it worth going with the Red or would Force be the better option? Opinions are appreciated...


I just got done putting together a mostly Red group from ebay sales and here's my words of wisdom.

The only items you should even consider upgrading to Red from Force are the shifters and crank. But neither is a huge difference and not worth much premium in price. But sometimes the price difference is so little that it might be well worth it.

The shifters because there is a (theoretical at least) functional difference in that the Red shifters have "zero loss" on both the left/front and right/back. There is very little weight difference. The upgrade can be very cheap ~$50 if you find a deep discounted closeout and/or a "like new" take off or very lightly used. My lightly used Red shifters look absolutely new and cost around $350 shipped. This was not an unusual deal, I saw several similar prices and a couple even lower in the couple of weeks I was looking. New Force cost around that much or a little less.

The crank because there is a pretty significant weight savings, and again, you can find a deeply discounted closeout or like new take off or used crank for around what a new Force crank would cost - ~ $250 shipped, depending on the BB it has (by the way, the difference in cost between the ceramic BB and the "regular" GXP BB is not worth the actual weight savings of about 15 grams. 

The rest of the parts have probably no functional difference and the weight difference is negligable. Many/most say the Force FD is superior in function to the Red anyway. Many even go to Rival for brakes, but me, I'd match the Force group even if it cost a few bucks more.


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