# History of blood doping



## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Cycling News put together a good article on blood doping. 

To me, it puts to rest any 'you could win clean until EPO came along in the mid 90s' arguments. 

I don't know who doped and who didn't, but at least here is a factual time table. 

A history on the use of blood transfusions in cycling | Cycling News


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Here is part II, covers the 80s.

A history on blood transfusions in cycling, part 2 | Cycling News


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## Used2Run (Sep 5, 2012)

Interesting articles. Now, what is blood and where can I get some?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Used2Run said:


> Interesting articles. Now, what is blood and where can I get some?












Drink it.


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## Used2Run (Sep 5, 2012)

So that's how the guys in Twilight look so fast?


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Don't do it man. You will start to look and act like this. And start listening to shitty, schmaltzy music. 

THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN PART 2 - Clip "The Talk" - YouTube


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## Used2Run (Sep 5, 2012)

Do I get to make out with that girl? 

On a side note, WTF is with that movie? I was the 14th person in this world to "thumbs down" that video clip.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Used2Run said:


> Do I get to make out with that girl?
> 
> On a side note, WTF is with that movie? I was the 14th person in this world to "thumbs down" that video clip.


Hey. I took me awhile to find a suitably crappy schmaltzy clip from twilight. 

No, actually, that clip was the first hit on google. 

Which explains why Twilight won 7 Razzies. And why it's such a good PSA on the dangers of blood abuse.

LA Times


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

This thread is now about Twilight. 

The Twilight Saga: Just The Stares - YouTube


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Eh. It sounded like there was going to be a part III on the blood doping article. If there is, I'll post it. 

People either read the articles and connect the dots, or they don't.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> Cycling News put together a good article on blood doping.
> 
> To me, it puts to rest any 'you could win clean until EPO came along in the mid 90s' arguments.


Not exactly. He was unable to confirm that any riders had used transfusions during a Grand Tour. 

Nencini was not doing a transfusion but an early form of testosterone. It was mistranslated once and repeated . Dumas exact words were



> "the two arms connected to a jar, suitable for a double infusion of serum-based male hormones. "


Joop transfused once, prior to the Tour and said he would never do it again. 

Riders from PDM team have said that doping was rampant on the team but they saw no indication of transfusions.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

The 84 Olympic team did transfuse. As did the hour records. 

I guess to me there is theoretical and proven. 

Theoretically, people started transfusing in 1972. So theoretically, any athlete after that might have been blood doping. At least, the technology was definitely out there. 

Maybe they didn't. Lots didn't. But theoretically, it's possible they did. 

I thought the PDM notebooks showed blood transfusions? Am I misremembering?


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## Used2Run (Sep 5, 2012)

Twilighttttttttt


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

I dunno. I thought the Honest Trailer series is funnier. 

Honest Trailers - Twilight - YouTube


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> The 84 Olympic team did transfuse. As did the hour records.
> 
> I guess to me there is theoretical and proven.
> 
> ...


Certainly there was transfusing for the track but not for Grand Tours. 

PDM notebooks referred to transfusions but none of the riders confirmed it. Andy Bishop was on the team for that Tour, said that there was plenty of talk of doping but he never saw, or heard mention of, transfusions.

Conconi talked openly of Moser using transfusions for the Hour record but also said that they did not use them for the Giro, thought they were too risky


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Why would they be used for track and not road? 

Why would national sports federations do whatever they could to win Olympic medals, but not spread it around to the Pro ranks?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> Why would they be used for track and not road?
> 
> Why would national sports federations do whatever they could to win Olympic medals, but not spread it around to the Pro ranks?


Controlled environment. In the late 70's the most modern methods allowed for blood to be stored for 35 days and would result in much damage, and loss, of cells. There was also the concern of the effect of increased blood pressure on a 95 degree day in the mountains


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

But the same folks who were so scared of blood transfusions started killing themselves off with EPO in the 90s?

I'm not trying to grill you. I'm just trying to sort this all out. 

My larger point is that there are things that get repeated over and over until people believe them as gospel. Myths, half truths and out right lies suddenly become facts. 

"500 clean tests...the peloton cleaned up in 2006...."

I'm trying to figure out if its myth or reality that EPO was a game changer in the 90s. 

If teams were on cycles if steroids, low dose testosterone and blood bags in the 80s, it would be hard to argue that achievements from the 90s are artificial, but achievements from the 80s should stand. 

Or to put it another way, is there a clear time when doping went from quacky and dangerous (Major Taylor riding the wrong way) to an insurmountable game changer (Andy Hampsten retires).


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> But the same folks who were so scared of blood transfusions started killing themselves off with EPO in the 90s?
> 
> I'm not trying to grill you. I'm just trying to sort this all out.
> 
> ...


Not exactly. 

EPO was seen as a safer, easier, option. It was managed by doctors (Padilla, Conconi, Ferrari) The deaths, and other issues, slowed the uptake of it but once the experts figure out how to do it right use exploded.

The easiest way to see if it was a game changer is to look at the climbing times and outputs.The sudden, dramatic, change is obvious


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Rumor has it that distance runner Lasse Viren was one of the first successful blood dopers. He doubled in the 5000m and 10,000m events in the 1972 Olympics and again in the 1976 Olympics.

Now the guy has never admitted it. And at the time transfusions were not illegal.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

^Make no mistake, Viren was a badass runner. He got tangled up and hit the ground midway through the Olympic 10K. 










He then jumped up, WENT TO THE FRONT, slowed the pace to recover, and hit it to win it. 










That said, there's currently no known way to confirm whether Lasse Viren is a fan of Twilight.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> Rumor has it that distance runner Lasse Viren was one of the first successful blood dopers. He doubled in the 5000m and 10,000m events in the 1972 Olympics and again in the 1976 Olympics.
> 
> Now the guy has never admitted it. And at the time transfusions were not illegal.


Viren is a good example. The guy would do almost nothing for 4 years then suddenly peaks at the Olympics twice

Fignon broke the record for Alp d'huez, riding 41:50. Within a few years Pantani is riding 36:50. We did not see similar performances in the 70's and 80's in GT's


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Umm. LH, You didn't really read the linked article, did you?


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> EPO was seen as a safer, easier, option. It was managed by doctors (Padilla, Conconi, Ferrari) The deaths, and other issues, slowed the uptake of it but once the experts figure out how to do it right use exploded.
> 
> The easiest way to see if it was a game changer is to look at the climbing times and outputs.The sudden, dramatic, change is obvious


I saw the Soviet track guys ride back in the day. They literally destroyed the 'mere mortals.' Catching guys in the pursuit and looking like they were on a Sunday stroll. Think 'Armstrong's the look' on track.

But Slava Ekimov turns pro and is mediocre. Not even classics or Grand Pris. 

Something does not add up in my mind.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> I saw the Soviet track guys ride back in the day. They literally destroyed the 'mere mortals.' Catching guys in the pursuit and looking like they were on a Sunday stroll. Think 'Armstrong's the look' on track.
> 
> But Slava Ekimov turns pro and is mediocre. Not even classics or Grand Pris.
> 
> Something does not add up in my mind.


oh, I wouldn't say Eki was mediocre. He is a double Gold Medalist 

I remember when Eki was a teenager. We all thought he was a myth.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

I met him back in the day. Only once, but I did meet him. Traded some American goods for CCCP hats and jerseys.

Wasn't Ekimov once the fastest guy in the world? Holder of so many records? But the extra terrestrial fell back to earth as a Pro. Its about more than climbing times.

Did you ever race track? Or are you a road guy only?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> Umm. LH, You didn't really read the linked article, did you?


No, sorry. I meant to read it but I never got around to clicking the link.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Rumor has it that distance runner Lasse Viren was one of the first successful blood dopers. He doubled in the 5000m and 10,000m events in the 1972 Olympics and again in the 1976 Olympics.
> 
> Now the guy has never admitted it. And at the time transfusions were not illegal.


He's still a major national hero in Finland. He's never going to admit it. IIRC he came pretty close to pulling off a marathon medal in 1976, the day after he set a WR in the 10,000?

In Moscow, the "forgotten Olympics" for most of the West, another Finnish runner was openly blood doping, and won a bronze in either the 5000 or 10000.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

mpre53 said:


> He's still a major national hero in Finland. He's never going to admit it. IIRC he came pretty close to pulling off a marathon medal in 1976, the day after he set a WR in the 10,000?
> 
> In Moscow, the "forgotten Olympics" for most of the West, another Finnish runner was openly blood doping, and won a bronze in either the 5000 or 10000.


I'm guessing his reindeer milk comment was a bit of a reference to the magic powers of the reindeer. Was he kidding? Was he serious? An artful way to dodge doping questions? Or does he have spiral tattoos on his shoulders?


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Bluenote said:


> I'm guessing his reindeer milk comment was a bit of a reference to the magic powers of the reindeer. Was he kidding? Was he serious? An artful way to dodge doping questions? Or does he have spiral tattoos on his shoulders?


I'm shocked that he didn't invoke the mythical powers of some of the characters in the Finnish national epic. :lol:

He always played it cute with the doping, but in the last interview of him that I saw, he flat-out denied it.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

mpre53 said:


> I'm shocked that he didn't invoke the mythical powers of some of the characters in the Finnish national epic. :lol:
> 
> He always played it cute with the doping, but in the last interview of him that I saw, he flat-out denied it.


Well. Reindeer and epic heros are a bit obtuse. All he really would need to say is 'I did what was needed to beat the Russians.'


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## bob.satan (Jun 2, 2011)

Emil Zatopek was using blood transfusions in the 50's

They have also been doing blood tranfusions in horse racing from the 30's (from what i have been told) and are still doing it today


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

bob.satan said:


> Emil Zatopek was using blood transfusions in the 50's


Link?


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## peabody (Oct 17, 2005)

so is our doctor falsetti related to dr. herman falsetti from the article?


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Bluenote said:


> Well. Reindeer and epic heros are a bit obtuse. All he really would need to say is 'I did what was needed to beat the Russians.'


Not sure whether it was his last 800 or 1500 meters of one of his 10,000s, but in one, his time for that split would have placed him in the top 10---for the final of whatever split it was.

But hey. Reindeer can fly, after all. :lol:


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## bob.satan (Jun 2, 2011)

can't find a link in google, somewhat surprising. It was ancedotal on my behalf, he had a lot to do with Australian athletes arouns this time.

I also understand that aorund this time, the eastern block countries were starting to use hormones and their affect on the athlete. Female athletes getting pregnant before major meeting and having the fetus aborted before hand, again similar to what had been happening in horse racing many years before (but no abortions would take place to my knowledge)


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

peabody said:


> so is our doctor falsetti related to dr. herman falsetti from the article?


He's talked about this before. Reading Doctor Falsetti's old posts is very illuminating.


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## peabody (Oct 17, 2005)

Bluenote said:


> He's talked about this before. Reading Doctor Falsetti's old posts is very illuminating.


so how about a cliff notes version as i have never seen it mentioned and you apparently have read every single post he's ever done.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

peabody said:


> so how about a cliff notes version as i have never seen it mentioned and you apparently have read every single post he's ever done.


It's not my place to speak for him. Besides, I'm disinclined to provide cliff notes to a snarky request.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Here is the conclusion to the series

A history on blood transfusions in cycling, part 3 | Cycling News


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