# Chris Carmichael; dupe or doper



## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Former pro racer turned coach / trainer to the stars, Chris Carmichael

Is he a complete idiot and had no idea, or was he plunging syringes into that golden gooses a_ _ faster than Ferrari?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Ask Greg Strock and Erich Kaiter. He may be the biggest beard in history (Lance Armstrong's "coach"), but he has his own history with doping.


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## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

In his next book "The super time strapped cyclist" he'll elaborate on techniques to avoid training all together


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## EpicX (Mar 11, 2002)

metoou2 said:


> Former pro racer turned coach / trainer to the stars, Chris Carmichael
> 
> Is he a complete idiot and had no idea, or was he plunging syringes into that golden gooses a_ _ faster than Ferrari?


The amazing thing in all this has been the number of people that have been in the sport 20+ years and never had a clue... 

The sad thing about Carmichael and CTS is if it's proven he knew or worse, had involvement, a lot of good coaches that did nothing but tie their fortunes to CTS will get burned. I'd imagine there's some concern among CTS staff these days.

Either way, Carmichael must be lying right? Either he DID know and is lying or he's overstated (lied) about the level of coaching he provided Lance Armstrong to sell CTS services.

I still think Lance will go scorched earth at some point. Either for the money, or to stick it to all the 'haters'. In his mind he'll always be the picked on victim in all this anyway.


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## suvacrew (Feb 27, 2008)

"I still think Lance will go scorched earth at some point. Either for the money, or to stick it to all the 'haters'. In his mind he'll always be the picked on victim in all this anyway."

Lance is radioactive now!!! And I agree, his Narcissistic Personality Disorder will strike out before it implodes. There is an enlightening article about what drove Lance to do what he did...Will Lance Armstrong ever fess up and face the truth? | Fox News


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

metoou2 said:


> Former pro racer turned coach / trainer to the stars, Chris Carmichael
> 
> Is he a complete idiot and had no idea, or was he plunging syringes into that golden gooses a_ _ faster than Ferrari?


Those are the only two choices?


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

There is no doubt that Carmichael was aware of doping, generally. He was on the LA '84 Olympic team, he was offered blood doping but (apparently) refused. 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119061/index.htm

As far as Lance is concerned, I've always understood that to be more of a marketing agreement than actual coaching services. But if Carmichael actually was providing real coaching, he'd be an idiot to not see the patterns of a doped athlete.


"America's successes at Los Angeles were coloured by revelations that riders had blood transfusions before their events, a practice known as blood doping or blood boosting. The transfusions were to increase red blood cells in riders' blood, thus taking more oxygen to their muscles. They received the blood of others with similar blood types.[6]
...
Steve Hegg won a gold and a silver; Rebecca Twigg, Pat McDonough and Leonard Nitz won silver medals. 
They were identified in the subsequent inquiry as having had transfusions. The others were John Beckman, Mark Whitehead and Brent Emery. The rest of the team refused. Transfusions were suggested by Eddie, by staff members or by the physician who oversaw the boosting, Dr. Herman Falsetti, a professor of cardiology at the University of Iowa"


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

Alaska Mike said:


> He may be the biggest beard in history


These beards are bigger!


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

At this point Chris has developed his training business to a level that it doesn't matter if LA used him as a marketing tool or if CC doped during his career. There are enough clients of CTS that are seeing the benefits of using his programs to keep his business afloat. Personally, if I were seeing the results I was hoping for by using his training services I wouldn't care if he doped or had entered into a marketing agreement with LA. If I feel I'm getting what I paid for I'm cool with his past.


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

With as close as Carmichael said he was to L.A., and as intragral at part of the training which led to all the results L.A. supposedly obtain, how could CArmichael claim he did not know. As far as I am concerned he is damaged goods along with L.A. 
I used CTS several years ago, and was not satisfied with the program or the coaches. Had one coach (for example), that took vacation and never bothered to tell many of his students. We had no plan for awhile. When I complained, the only attempt to make the situation was "they would give me 10% off on a new power tap." If I was not satisfied with the service I was obtaining, why put even more money in C.C. pocket.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

If you are not satisfied with your coach or your experience with C.T.S it makes no sense to put more money into C.TS. Your expeience might not be like other peoples, so you or I can only act on our experiences with him. I still feel that just because you were involved with LA in some professional aspect does not make you damaged goods. As for many of the cyclist who raced with and against him the "omerta" of cycling at that time didn't really allow for whistle blowers. Most who rode bike with him or used his success to grow their business did so knowing that to achieve his type of results in the sport at that time required the use of PEDs. I hope you now see Nike, Oakely, Trek, Honey Stinger, FRS, Beer, and whatever else he sold as damaged goods as well. I believe they all knew the risks of supporting LA and they all took those risks knowing the reward would be a million times more than the risk.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I highly doubt Miller Ultralight drinkers give a flying fornication about Lance given they're chugging absolutely flavorless beer. Hell, most of them probably don't know who Lance is, other than the dude in all the commercials.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

spade2you said:


> I highly doubt Miller Ultralight drinkers give a flying fornication about Lance given they're chugging absolutely flavorless beer. Hell, most of them probably don't know who Lance is, other than the dude in all the commercials.


I've always wondered if any individual has ever actually purchased that crap at retail. Only place I've ever seen it served is as a freebie of one of several choices at some festival where they are sponsoring.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

just more lies...a fraud. his time crunched methods apparently work for some, but i will not be voting for him with my dollars...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Creakyknees said:


> I've always wondered if any individual has ever actually purchased that crap at retail. Only place I've ever seen it served is as a freebie of one of several choices at some festival where they are sponsoring.


A good friend of my in-laws lives off the stuff. I also don't think I've ever seen him sober.  Of their friends, he's about the only one who has refused to drink my wonderful home brews, not that he could tell the difference as wasted as he is.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Creakyknees said:


> I've always wondered if any individual has ever actually purchased that crap at retail. Only place I've ever seen it served is as a freebie of one of several choices at some festival where they are sponsoring.


I think you're highly underestimating the number of folks who drink piss-beer and like it just fine. They're not use to or simply don't like beer with much flavor.

I've got plenty of relatives who think you're odd for drinking that funny tasting stuff. Plus it costs more.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Have you tried the time crunched program? It works very nicely if you're time crunched.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

USA and Britain - two countries divided by the same lanuage:
What we drink in Britain is beer. What you drink in America is just something that has the same name. 
A bit like the game those armoured fat boys play that you call football, but which is really just Rugby for sissies.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

albert owen said:


> USA and Britain - two countries divided by the same lanuage:
> What we drink in Britain is beer. What you drink in America is just something that has the same name.
> A bit like the game those armoured fat boys play that you call football, but which is really just Rugby for sissies.


You mean soccer? The game where Euro trash flop to the ground like they have been shot by a sniper when someone touches them?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

Carmichael was an installed public decoy for LA while he had his *real* coach in Italy. Sure, LA selectively sent CC some training data and made sure CC was around on the Champs-Élysées for the media to see. LA's fellow riders, however, say they never saw CC during the year or heard LA mention his name. 

I'm leaning toward CC being duped by the LA machine but I've got to believe he knew a doping program was being followed. It doesn't really matter. CC bootstrapped and built his business off LA's name and he came out ahead at the end.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

moonmoth said:


> Carmichael was an installed public decoy for LA while he had his *real* coach in Italy. Sure, LA selectively sent CC some training data and made sure CC was around on the Champs-Élysées for the media to see. LA's fellow riders, however, say they never saw CC during the year or heard LA mention his name.
> 
> I'm leaning toward CC being duped by the LA machine but I've got to believe he knew a doping program was being followed. It doesn't really matter. CC bootstrapped and built his business off LA's name and he came out ahead at the end.


There is no way Carmichael was duped. He injected underage kids with dope when he was a coach for the national team. He lied to the kids about what was in the injections. He is a scumbag who would be in prison if there was any justice in the world.

Landis aptly described Carmichael as a "beard." If it was not for his relation with Armstrong, Carmichael would be writing crappy articles for Bicycling magazine, like an annual how to train for a century. That is the quality of his coaching advice. The guy is a clown.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Trailrunner, don't hold back...................tell us how you really feel.

I agree with most on this Thread, he was either personally involved or he had 'some' knowledge of what was up.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

albert owen said:


> USA and Britain - two countries divided by the same lanuage:
> What we drink in Britain is beer. What you drink in America is just something that has the same name.
> A bit like the game those armoured fat boys play that you call football, but which is really just Rugby for sissies.


I am going to assume that you are joking. If we stripped these guys of their "armour", people would die every game.

They are twice as big and twice as fast as those rugby players over there in GB.:idea:

Little kids have a game like rugby over here. It is called smear the qu***. Not very PC these days. When they grow up to be 6'5" and 340 lbs of muscle, they put gear on.

Also, American football has plays that allow for these freaks of nature to reach top speeds before colliding head on with another freak equally their size.

Rugby players typically seem to "run" for 3.4 ft before they toss the ball to someone else before getting touched sorta thing imo...

Now, I am sure you will go and find ONE picture of a muscular rugby player to offset the facts I mentioned above.

Carry on..


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## brentley (Jul 20, 2008)

rydbyk said:


> I am going to assume that you are joking. If we stripped these guys of their "armour", people would die every game.
> 
> They are twice as big and twice as fast as those rugby players over there in GB.:idea:
> 
> ...


Actually, less equipment would not result in more injuries, just the opposite, it would force players to change their styles so they don't get hurt. There would be less head to head contact for one.

Rugby players have a lot of shoulder issues from the matador style tackling, lots of rotator cuff and dislocations. 

There are multiple huge rugby players (even in the US) in fact the US rugby team consists mostly of guys who played college football.

Oh, and to keep this on topic for the doping forum, how does someone get to be 6' 4" and 340?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

HGH baby, the NFL is rife with it.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> Landis aptly described Carmichael as a "beard." If it was not for his relation with Armstrong, Carmichael would be writing crappy articles for Bicycling magazine, like an annual how to train for a century. That is the quality of his coaching advice. The guy is a clown.


And Hamilton called Carmichael an annoying cheerleader type instead of a coach. This why I don't believe the keys to the castle were shared with CC by LA but instead he kept him mostly stateside as a decoy. Do people believe the CC was interacting with Ferrari directly? 

Anyway, if CC has anything to hide, you can bet he'll be selling his CTS coaching business soon, while it still has value. This will of course be positioned by CC as "wanting to spend more time with the family."


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

He's ninth from the right.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

brentley said:


> Actually, less equipment would not result in more injuries, just the opposite, it would force players to change their styles so they don't get hurt. There would be less head to head contact for one.
> 
> Rugby players have a lot of shoulder issues from the matador style tackling, lots of rotator cuff and dislocations.
> 
> ...


Of course but it would not be American football as we know it today....instead probably morphing into some sort of rugby game.

I stand by my statement that the "armour" is necessary to play the style of football that we know and love today in 'merica. Continuing that style of play without pads would be a death wish.

The dude from across the pond was making fun of the "armour" that our players need to wear and called them sissies in case you missed it

Back on topic...to answer your question....well....genetics and dope of course


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## tdi-rick (Oct 2, 2007)

rydbyk said:


> Of course but it would not be American football as we know it today....instead probably morphing into some sort of rugby game.
> 
> I stand by my statement that the "armour" is necessary to play the style of football that we know and love today in 'merica. Continuing that style of play without pads would be a death wish.
> 
> ...


Catch a game of Southern Hemisphere Super Rugby (Australia/New Zealand/South Africa) or Australian Rugby League sometime if you want to see big fella's going for it 

Most from 'merica that have witnessed a Super Rugby or Oz NRL game can't believe the size and speed of the blokes, and they do it all without or minimal padding.


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## brentley (Jul 20, 2008)

rydbyk said:


> Of course but it would not be American football as we know it today....instead probably morphing into some sort of rugby game.
> 
> I stand by my statement that the "armour" is necessary to play the style of football that we know and love today in 'merica. Continuing that style of play without pads would be a death wish.
> 
> ...


I actually agree that the armor does enable the game to played the way that we like it. Hockey also is a high speed collision sport, (and you can go even faster on skates than you can run) and also features lots of big hits. 

I got the armor and sissies comment completely, which is sort of funny since all of the best US Rugby players are ex college football players.

But I have seen Rugby in Australia and I can tell you it is brutal and that the dudes are pretty big. 

But back to the topic at hand, Carmichael had to at least have an idea that something was happening, but like all hangers on to armstrong, was not in the circle of trust, so he didn't have all of the details. He has built quite a business for himself coaching and leveraging his ties to Armstrong. I know that he coached Tommy D at some point (he is in one of his videos) so he must have seen the change once Tommy hit the EPO.


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## Wookster (Oct 2, 2011)

From reading the Tyler H books it's clear that he really didn't do anything bar provide an acceptable face to the training side. 
If not guilty of doping, and from the book it seems he hasn't been involved in the doping process a he's guilty of being complicit and fraud to a greater or lesser extent as he's sold a product based on false claims.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

velodog said:


> He's ninth from the right.


A+ effort.


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## champamoore (Jul 30, 2012)

rydbyk said:


> I am going to assume that you are joking. If we stripped these guys of their "armour", people would die every game.
> 
> They are twice as big and twice as fast as those rugby players over there in GB.:idea:
> 
> ...


If US pro football players didn't dope, they wouldn't be twice as fast. As it is, they are only fast for a *very* short distance, especially the heavy ones. 

Finding issue with doping in cycling, then glorifying doping in US football is ridiculous.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

champamoore said:


> If US pro football players didn't dope, they wouldn't be twice as fast. As it is, they are only fast for a *very* short distance, especially the heavy ones.
> 
> Finding issue with doping in cycling, then glorifying doping in US football is ridiculous.


The facts were stated. No glorifying of anything. Just a compare and contrast. Again, the armor is necessary for the current style of American football to be played.

So, fast for a short distance means what? You line up against one of these freaks...let them run at you from a "short distance" (15 yards) and we will see how it turns out for ya.

Most of these guys are solid for at least 40 yards at top speed btw...

Sarcasm button pushed: I am sure there is zero doping in rugby.

Oh yeh...and CC is a fraud


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## tdi-rick (Oct 2, 2007)

Yep, those Union and League boys are big girls, can't hit up and aren't very mobile either.
Crikey, they only play 40 minute halves and have to play the whole match (mostly) without stoppages and 'plays'






(it's the only vid i could find quickly that didn't just show punch ups !)

ASADA's been into them from time to time too.

As for Carmichael, your deity only knows, but surely he'd have to suspect at the very least as he'd have all the numbers.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Yep, those Union and League boys are big girls, can't hit up and aren't very mobile either.
> Crikey, they only play 40 minute halves and have to play the whole match (mostly) without stoppages and 'plays'
> 
> 
> ...


All I could handle was 1:30 seconds. The farthest anyone seemed to "run" (more of a scramble at low speed) was about 10 yards.

Yes, those are big guys...great athletes too I am sure. 

Your point about them playing for very long periods with little rest is a valid point. The hits are way less aggressive when these guys are so tired. Imagine letting them rest over and over like they do in the NFL....

Let's not forget the original comment about the NFL "sissies" that prompted this.

Thanks.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

Here we go. CC's hometown newspaper starts the ball rolling.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

spade2you said:


> A good friend of my in-laws lives off the stuff. I also don't think I've ever seen him sober.  Of their friends, he's about the only one who has refused to drink my wonderful home brews, not that he could tell the difference as wasted as he is.


Your in-laws friend doesn't like beer. He likes getting F*&%$# up.


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