# Does everyone feel happier now that Lance is busted?



## ashpelham (Jan 19, 2006)

I'm glad the guy has been outed, ok? But I don't feel better that the sport has been dragged through the mud in the worst type of way. That a fringe sport in the US is probably going to lose all of it's credibility, or what was left of it, and that US race supporters have less of a reason to commit money to the sport. 

There's been a lot of haters here. And I don't like a liar anymore than the rest of you. But the sport of cycling, outside of you and I going out for a lunchtime spin, just lost all of it's footing in the United States.


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## Zombie John (Jul 25, 2011)

Eh...


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

Yes.

I don't think of our sport as being "dragged through the mud" by this.

The sport has been up to it's neck in #$%& and should be trying to *drag itself out*.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Yes, and I will be even happier if the UCI is reformed as part of this as well.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

ashpelham said:


> There's been a lot of haters here. And I don't like a liar anymore than the rest of you. But the sport of cycling, outside of you and I going out for a lunchtime spin, just lost all of it's footing in the United States.


Believe it or not, there is a world beyond the Pacific and Atlantic coasts, the Rio Grande and the 49th parallel. If you can't understand that this is not about Lance, and never really was, but about excising a culture of cheating and corruption, then you need to get educated. Lance is a symptom, not the disease.


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## BGEPizza (Sep 28, 2009)

So this should have been ignored? Business as usual? I take a different view. Yes, it may hurt the sport. For a while. But the sport IS what is HAS BEEN. And that has to stop. If this whole thing goes where I hope it will go, perhaps the result will be a cleaner peloton. Perhaps the UCI will get a much needed housecleaning (or better yet, a replacement). Perhaps Dr. "Mengele" and the others will be replaced by real coaches and doctors. Perhaps, even, Motoman can start a pizza delivery business.

The sport's "been down so long, this looks like up to me" (R. Farina 1966).


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## trener1 (Jan 22, 2004)

Yeah I heard that in 1998....


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Yep, so much happier. I can't stand the lying, cheating toerag. 

Thanks for asking


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

The better part of me says I shouldn't be but yes I feel happier or at least vindicated. Not here but in another forum I had a long running debate for years with a guy who took every opportunity to defend LA and give me **** any time doping and LA was discussed.

He was such a fanboy I seriously expected him to still be holding out even now. He has finally admitted we've crossed the Rubicon and Armstrong did what everyone has been saying he did for years. Of course, now he "doesn't care".


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

When the dogs come in and make muddy footprints on the floor, I drag out the mop. For a few moments, a lot of the floor gets a little dirty as the mop does its job. 

But that's what it takes to make the whole floor clean.


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## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

Yes, absolutely. I, like most people, hate being played for a fool and I was indeed a fool to believe this chump for so long. He deserves everything coming to him.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

ashpelham said:


> I'm glad the guy has been outed, ok? But I don't feel better that the sport has been dragged through the mud in the worst type of way. That a fringe sport in the US is probably going to lose all of it's credibility, or what was left of it, and that US race supporters have less of a reason to commit money to the sport.
> 
> There's been a lot of haters here. And I don't like a liar anymore than the rest of you. But the sport of cycling, outside of you and I going out for a lunchtime spin, just lost all of it's footing in the United States.


The U.S. does not have a bike racing culture. The growth in the sport comes from chubby middle agers whose big event of the summer is the MS150 or a local century. Pro racing could disappear completely and it would not affect the recreational market. The only effect of Armstrong going down will be fewer d-bags in Livestrong kit. Expect Primal Wear to make a comeback.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm glad you ask. I feel great, in fact I feel better watching all those hypocritical riders and DS being dragged in the mud than I've ever felt watching their fake, insulting drivel about how clean the sport was in the past 10 years.
Now when I watch professional cycling I'll be happy to know half the peloton is clean, and the other half might actually be fearing a positive.

Most importantly, I'm extremely happy Armstrong stepped down from Livestrong. That's a huge symbol.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Someone in another thread wrote about repainting his 1999 USPS Trek. Others are destroying or throwing away their signed Armstrong memorabilia. I read on facebook that people enjoyed BBQing Armstrong books. 

Nothing cleanses the soul and rallies the simpletons like a good book burning.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Someone in another thread wrote about repainting his 1999 USPS Trek. Others are destroying or throwing away their signed Armstrong memorabilia. I read on facebook that people enjoyed BBQing Armstrong books.
> 
> Nothing cleanses the soul and rallies the simpletons like a good book burning.


Sounds like there will be a lot of great bargains for the few suckers--I mean fanboys--who still believe.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

danl1 said:


> When the dogs come in and make muddy footprints on the floor, I drag out the mop. For a few moments, a lot of the floor gets a little dirty as the mop does its job.
> 
> But that's what it takes to make the whole floor clean.


Dogs will be dogs... ban them, for life!:thumbsup:


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

ashpelham said:


> I'm glad the guy has been outed, ok? But I don't feel better that the sport has been dragged through the mud in the worst type of way. That a fringe sport in the US is probably going to lose all of it's credibility, or what was left of it, and that US race supporters have less of a reason to commit money to the sport.
> 
> There's been a lot of haters here. And I don't like a liar anymore than the rest of you. But the sport of cycling, outside of you and I going out for a lunchtime spin, just lost all of it's footing in the United States.



Hurt big time.

Americans love winners and hate loosers. It now seems that all the big names in US pro cycling have been doping for years. There's noone waiting in the wings who seems capable of taking on the Euros. The US will loose what little interest they have in pro cycling and shift their attention to wherever the winners are and pro cycling will languish. It will stay that way until the next Lance Armstrong comes along and like the former, people won't care how it's done until he or she is used up - chewed up and spit out.

Meanwhile the US companies that supported these "cheaters", raked in enormous profits because of it and haven't or won't hurt a bit as a result, will back other, foreign winners and keep rakin' it in.


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## Chaz955i (Mar 13, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> Someone in another thread wrote about repainting his 1999 USPS Trek. Others are destroying or throwing away their signed Armstrong memorabilia. I read on facebook that people enjoyed BBQing Armstrong books.
> 
> Nothing cleanses the soul and rallies the simpletons like a good book burning.


Ha ha. People starving, civilians getting slaughtered in Syria, little girls getting poisoned for going to school. F that. Let's burn some Lance memorabilia or repaint a bike and then post about it. That is the way to take a stand. Glad my life isn't that empty. I would have ended it long ago.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Short term pain.

Long term gain.

I hope this is how it plays out. It is all really sad. Interesting...but still very sad.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Chaz955i said:


> Ha ha. People starving, civilians getting slaughtered in Syria, little girls getting poisoned for going to school. F that. Let's burn some Lance memorabilia or repaint a bike and then post about it. That is the way to take a stand. Glad my life isn't that empty. I would have ended it long ago.


agreed, welcome to an internet discussion board.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Chaz955i said:


> Ha ha. People starving, civilians getting slaughtered in Syria, little girls getting poisoned for going to school. F that. Let's burn some Lance memorabilia or repaint a bike and then post about it. That is the way to take a stand. Glad my life isn't that empty. I would have ended it long ago.


Yayyyyyy. You watch the news too! 

You are assuming that none of us give a rat's butt about global issues. Kind of odd.

Political forums are a complete train wreck. No thanks...I choose to stay far far away while I read the news.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

pro cycling had 'credibility'? when? Guess it's been too long since I was naive....but I am more concerned about non-pro cycling.

If the UCI gets cleaned up, yes, I'll be a little happier. (Not that they are 'bad for the sport', on the contrary, I believe that they believe that they are acting in the sports best interest and turning blind eye/coverup doping. Any may they are somewhat correct...doping=superhumanefforts=more exciting=more viewers/fans=more $$$= better for the sport. But I reject that equation.)

Otherwise, be careful placing your heros on pedestals.


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

mmoose said:


> pro cycling had 'credibility'? when? Guess it's been too long since I was naive....but I am more concerned about non-pro cycling.
> 
> If the UCI gets cleaned up, yes, I'll be a little happier. (Not that they are 'bad for the sport', on the contrary, I believe that they believe that they are acting in the sports best interest and turning blind eye/coverup doping. Any may they are somewhat correct...doping=superhumanefforts=more exciting=more viewers/fans=more $$$= better for the sport. But I reject that equation.)


But that is the equation that produces sport in this day and age. But it's not about what's best for the sport. It's about what's best for the people who are signing the checks. It's about profit. It's been that way in racing since the mid-60s at least.

Sadly we can't go back to happier times. Pandora's box is open and we can't put the demons back. Competing no longer matters, love of the work is irrelevant, winning is all, everything and the means justifies the end. You may not like it, but that's how it is. Shouting at the wind won't make it stop blowing.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Happy that I no longer have to explain things to otherwise intelligent people who suspend rational thought when it comes to one guy

While it sucks that Lance and his buddies drug the sport through the mud the sport will emerge stronger from this mess


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## ashpelham (Jan 19, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> Someone in another thread wrote about repainting his 1999 USPS Trek. Others are destroying or throwing away their signed Armstrong memorabilia. I read on facebook that people enjoyed BBQing Armstrong books.
> 
> Nothing cleanses the soul and rallies the simpletons like a good book burning.


It's funny that using book burning is an analogy for cleansing our conscience and moving toward a better more open future. That's so ironic I can't even begin. 

Thanks for all responses, even the ones that were sarcastic, as I was, and didn't necessarily agree with my jibe. I'm just more sad to see part of what I loved about cycling be exposed as an utter fraud, though this is a symptom of the American dream that has been perpetrated for a long while now. Sports is not the center of the universe, but being healthy and living a full life IS. Cycling for me is still a big part of that.


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Happy that I no longer have to explain things to otherwise intelligent people who suspend rational thought when it comes to one guy


That would be nice, I'm sure. meanwhile, I wouldn't hold your breath. I'm sure there will a lot more explaining for you to do . This thing is far from over.



> While it sucks that Lance and his buddies drug the sport through the mud the sport will emerge stronger from this mess


Cleaner, maybe. Stronger? That, I'm afraid, remains to be seen. Let's see how US riders and teams do next year.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

ashpelham said:


> I'm glad the guy has been outed, ok? But I don't feel better that the sport has been dragged through the mud in the worst type of way. That a fringe sport in the US is probably going to lose all of it's credibility, or what was left of it, and that US race supporters have less of a reason to commit money to the sport.
> 
> There's been a lot of haters here. And I don't like a liar anymore than the rest of you. But the sport of cycling, outside of you and I going out for a lunchtime spin, just lost all of it's footing in the United States.


This mentality that "the game" or "the team" is above all else is what brings us this sordid affair and other like Penn State to bear. And it needs to stop. 

Am I sad? Yes. As much as Im now solidly against LA, I do feel bad for him. Yes, his fall from grace was brought on by nobody but himself but its a _tragic _fall, regardless. And for the millions who looked up to him, myself included, its painful to see you were believing a fallacy. 

As far as the sport goes, its even worse. Doping is done in all sports, but when the GOVERNING BODY is not just looking the other way, but in on the fix, then the sport has zero credibility and when you cant trust anybody, you dont have a competition anymore. You have professional wrestling. And while that can be entertaining, its not what I signed up for here.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Happier yes, but also sadder. But it had to be done. It's like ending your 10-yr marriage that had been going downhill, had to be done sooner or later.

Next step is for the UCI to purge their core and bring in a new core. Until then, it's not completely done.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm glad this all came out. I think it's unambiguously good.

I'm irritated that Armstrong won't come clean. Give. It. Up.

I'm gratified that the Garmin guys and other did come clean and are taking the consequences with a bit of grace. I'm irritated that it took them so long and that it took a governmental investigation to get them to open up.

I'm even more skeptical of the entire sport of cycling, if that's possible. In fact, after reading "The Secret Race" I'm skeptical of all sports. I think that all enduance sports records and results (running, swimming, cycling etc) since the advent of EPO and transfusions need to be taken with a grain of salt. I think all "fast twitch" sports (team sports, sprinting etc) results and records since the advent of advanced steroids and hormone therapy are suspect. Older records are almost certainly tainted with stimulants, but to me they aren't as effective.

I'm unclear on where we go from here. Biological passports that begin in childhood for all athletes? 

More depressingly, I wonder if we have unrealistic expectations and if our forefathers were less naive about this stuff. Given that even the ancient Greeks doped in the Olympics and that pros up until Simpson considered doping just a professional duty, should we just give it up? Is doping among professional athletes, people who's job it is to entertain us, even a bad thing?


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

sir duke said:


> Lance is a symptom, not the disease.


I disagree with you.
Contador is a symptom. Tyler was symptom. Basso too. Jan as well as many others.
Lance, like Kimmage once put it not so long ago, was the disease.
He wasn't just another doper, like he could've been, but took it upon himself to play judge, jury and executioner within the ranks as well.
Now with this particular infected group gone, maybe the organization will root out the two remaining big names. McQuaid and Verbruggen. That's what I hope for, at least.


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## brady1 (Aug 18, 2011)

MG537 said:


> I disagree with you.
> Contador is a symptom. Tyler was symptom. Basso too. Jan as well as many others.
> Lance, like Kimmage once put it not so long ago, was the disease.
> He wasn't just another doper, like he could've been, but took it upon himself to play judge, jury and executioner within the ranks as well.
> Now with this particular infected group gone, maybe the organization will root out the two remaining big names. McQuaid and Verbruggen. That's what I hope for, at least.


Yep, me too.

It would be nice to see all the teams band together and boycott all sanctioned races until McQuaid and Verbruggen step down. It ain't going to happen, but it would be nice to see.


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

Samadhi said:


> It now seems that all the big names in US pro cycling have been doping for years.


Is it too late to embrace Greg LeMond as the greatest US TdF champion?


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Brad the Bold said:


> Is it too late to embrace Greg LeMond as the greatest US TdF champion?


Some of us never stopped. 

So far, Lance hasn't been busted. But yeah, I'm a bit happy now. I'll be even happier when I see the news conference where he admits it, the air of cockiness and superiority finally knocked off that smug face, while he cries and whimpers like a little girl.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

trailrunner68 said:


> Sounds like there will be a lot of great bargains for the few suckers--I mean fanboys--who still believe.


The funny thing is that after this memorabilia purge and the angst of current events passes, there will be a surge in collectibility for the remaining 'scandal rocked' items. It'll be the hot find on the 2030 season of Pawn Stars.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

brady1 said:


> Yep, me too.
> 
> It would be nice to see all the teams band together and boycott all sanctioned races until McQuaid and Verbruggen step down. It ain't going to happen, but it would be nice to see.


All they would have to do is boycott the worlds and the Chinese race that the UCI promotes. The worlds is worth like seven million euros to the UCI. The UCI would undergo extreme hardship without that money.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

I'm not happy, sad or mad......but I am highly entertained.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

trailrunner68 said:


> The only effect of Armstrong going down will be fewer d-bags in Livestrong kit. Expect Primal Wear to make a comeback.


And maybe the ******** who yelled "Hey Lance" at any guy in Spandex will have to learn the name of another cyclist. :lol:


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Samadhi said:


> There's noone waiting in the wings who seems capable of taking on the Euros.


 
Don't know about that. Tejay VanGarderen and Taylor Philley seem like they might have the goods. I'll keep watching regardless of nationality, but I'll be cheering these guys just a little louder than the rest.


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## ghost6 (Sep 4, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Happy that I no longer have to explain things to otherwise intelligent people who suspend rational thought when it comes to one guy
> 
> While it sucks that Lance and his buddies drug the sport through the mud the sport will emerge stronger from this mess


Considering how much time and effort you spend "explaining" why Lance is evil incarnate, I'm wondering what on earth you'll do with your time once the Lance drama ends.


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## CoffeeBean2 (Aug 6, 2005)

Samadhi said:


> Cleaner, maybe. Stronger? That, I'm afraid, remains to be seen. Let's see how US riders and teams do next year.


I'm willing to bet TV coverage in the US will be cut back even further next year, as the general public, who became interested in cycling because of LA, turn their backs on the sport and go on to other sports, most likely golf. Bike companies won't be selling as many bikes, therefore advertising dollars will be cut back. We'll be reduced to watching races over the Internet and the obligatory 1/2 hour mention on ESPN, if that.

You (not you, Samadhi, specifically, but "you" in general) may hate LA with a passion, but you can't deny his influence on US cycling in the last 10 years. For example:

The Lance Armstrong Effect | The Self Righteous Cyclist
How Lance Armstrong transformed North American culture - Yahoo! News


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

CoffeeBean2 said:


> I'm willing to bet TV coverage in the US will be cut back even further next year, as the general public, who became interested in cycling because of LA, turn their backs on the sport and go on to other sports, most likely golf. Bike companies won't be selling as many bikes, therefore advertising dollars will be cut back. We'll be reduced to watching races over the Internet and the obligatory 1/2 hour mention on ESPN, if that.


It could happen.

NBC Sports recently acquired the rights to broadcast Formula 1 races. Those rights don't come cheap, and they'll have to support that by offering support programming. Considering the very real possibility that pro cycling will take a hit here in the US, NBCS could easily afford to axe that programming for stuff that people really wanna watch.

But hey, at least our riders will be racing clean. Doesn't matter if noone wants to watch them.

I'll wager that you'll even see LBS' start having close down. Who wants to be like those cheating, scumbag doper pros that the big companies sponsor? Who will want to buy a Trek now that their boy, Lance has been outted?

On the bright side, fewer people on bikes means fewer people on MUPs clogging things up.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Samadhi said:


> I'll wager that you'll even see LBS' start having close down. Who wants to be like those cheating, scumbag doper pros that the big companies sponsor? Who will want to buy a Trek now that their boy, Lance has been outted?
> 
> On the bright side, fewer people on bikes means fewer people on MUPs clogging things up.


Cool. With fewer yuppie d-bags trying to keep up with the Joneses by buying stuff simply because it is more expensive then prices will fall.


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## nymackem (Oct 12, 2012)

rufus said:


> Some of us never stopped.
> 
> So far, Lance hasn't been busted. But yeah, I'm a bit happy now. I'll be even happier when I see the news conference where he admits it, the air of cockiness and superiority finally knocked off that smug face, while he cries and whimpers like a little girl.


Even if he wanted to I doubt he'd own up to it now. He's on the record under oath denying it, and I can't see him wanting to go to prison for perjury. Hope I'm wrong, as a mea culpa would be the best avenue imho for all the folks he has inspired thru the cancer cause.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ghost6 said:


> Considering how much time and effort you spend "explaining" why Lance is evil incarnate, I'm wondering what on earth you'll do with your time once the Lance drama ends.


Link? 

If you read what I write here most of it is detailed with links, quotes, and evidence. I have consitently been right. While I think that Lance is clearly troubled person I have never come close to saying he is evil incarnate


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I was a fan of LA as much as anyone back in the day I suppose. It was a great story: a story of cancer survival, of an American dominating in a European sport, a story of a man bringing our fringe sport back into the public consciousness again.
But akin to when you find out that Santa Claus doesn't really exist, you don't forever hate Christmas, you just celebrate it with an asterisk and move on with your life. Opening presents is still fun, even if your parents bought them for you and lied about being the ones that put them there


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

CoffeeBean2 said:


> I'm willing to bet TV coverage in the US will be cut back even further next year, as the general public, who became interested in cycling because of LA, turn their backs on the sport and go on to other sports, most likely golf. Bike companies won't be selling as many bikes, therefore advertising dollars will be cut back. We'll be reduced to watching races over the Internet and the obligatory 1/2 hour mention on ESPN, if that.
> 
> You (not you, Samadhi, specifically, but "you" in general) may hate LA with a passion, but you can't deny his influence on US cycling in the last 10 years. For example:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't doubt that we'll get much less coverage until we produce another solid winner. 

I have more than a gut feeling that when Lance makes his full confession, it will involve some dirt on the UCI being well aware, further hurting the credibility of the sport. 

I fully expect Italy and Spain to never pull a stunt like this on one of their own.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I fully expect Italy and Spain to never pull a stunt like this on one of their own.


Wrong

Basso, Scarponi, Ferarri, Valverde, Pozzato.....all sanctioned by CONI. 70 riders are currently being investigated in the Ferrari case.


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## FR hokeypokey (Apr 12, 2010)

Far from happy. 

First because I was one of those that buried my head in the sand and believed in Armstrong.

Secondly, I find the gloating responses of the many that dislike Armstrong pretty troubling.. Although he may have earned your scorn for his behavior and cheating, the level of vitriol for apparently only him is pretty hypocritical. 

Why isn't Armstrong a "victim" of a corrupt cycling culture as much as any other rider? Why a lifetime ban for him, yet minimal suspensions for self confessed dopers? Why admiration for riders that were caught then confessed and "told the truth" in testimony or books about the ringleader? The big fish analogy does not fly. How many other team leaders and Grand Tour winners have been caught and given only one or two year suspensions. 

But apparently Armstrong is the root of all doping in cycling. an example has to be made. 

Finally, I find myself more cynical of any rider's performance and skeptical that any result is "clean". How can anyone trust any test result? Or perhaps even the motives of the governing bodies. 

As was mentioned above this perception by the mainstream sports fan, media and sponsors will bury the sport even more. This is not a good day for cycling no matter how much many need to celebrate the downfall of an icon.


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## Scoe141 (Jun 18, 2010)

FR hokeypokey said:


> Far from happy.
> 
> First because I was one of those that buried my head in the sand and believed in Armstrong.
> 
> ...



It's sad. Unfortunately there are no winners here. I don't think anyone can be happy over something like this. 

Like hokeypokey said, anytime someone begins to dominate an event or sport, people will immediately think "yupp he's doping." 

And in MLB or any endurance sport, there will always be people who dope. Im sure the methods will become more scientific and harder to trace. i.e. the alteration of genes, like China has ben accused of for their Olympic athletes. 

You wonder if it will ever stop? For example, if they made some insanely strict regulations, like mandatory jail time if you got caught. 

I wonder if that would serve as a deterrent.


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## CoffeeBean2 (Aug 6, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Wrong
> 
> Basso, Scarponi, Ferarri, Valverde, Pozzato.....all sanctioned by CONI. 70 riders are currently being investigated in the Ferrari case.


Did all of their sponsors terminate their ties with them when they were sanctioned?


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I won't be happy until Professional cycling is shut down for 5 years, so that a new crowd can start.................. doping.

A side effect of this, is that the price of top line bikes may brop to $2000-$3000. again.
.
.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

rufus said:


> Some of us never stopped.
> 
> So far, Lance hasn't been busted. But yeah, I'm a bit happy now. I'll be even happier when I see the news conference where he admits it, the air of cockiness and superiority finally knocked off that smug face, while he cries and whimpers like a little girl.


This sounds so personal. Why? Assuming that the guy hasn't done anything directly to you, why are you so passionate about it?


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## FR hokeypokey (Apr 12, 2010)

"You wonder if it will ever stop? For example, if they made some insanely strict regulations, like mandatory jail time if you got caught."

"I wonder if that would serve as a deterrent." 

I question whether mandatory jail time is a reasonable deterrent. They already risk permanent health issues and failed body functions. Recreational drug users and addicts risk jail time and still decide to use. 

Also most would think ant strict regulations would not apply to them. Look at the Armstrong case. He is taking the brunt of the investigation, ridicule and scorn and life time ban. Are the other dopers, past or present, getting the same treatment? 

Grumpy- what makes you think the price of high end bikes will go down? Less demand means less supply, innovation and competition to sell. Economically speaking there is an argument that high end bikes will go up in price and not be as "cutting edge" as the market now enjoys.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Let's not make it sound like Armstrong is the victim here. For years, he and his PR team have caused harm to others too. Grey Lemond comes to mind? I compare LA to a mafia king; he ain't just your typical peloton doper. 

LA masterminded the system, forced teammates to dope (or risk ruin their nascent careers), run a malignant PR team to deface those who questioned him, and probably did a bunch of other illegal stuff too, or at the very least unethical.

I'm glad things are coming into light. I hope that in the following months and years, the current UCI core of leadership will be ousted out and make way for new ones, because the current crops of UCI leadership is part of how this problem got to where it is today.


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## sandiegosteve (Mar 29, 2004)

No.

Interesting reading, but doesn't move anything forward.

Doesn't make the weekend get togethers with non cyclists more fun, that is for sure.


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## FR hokeypokey (Apr 12, 2010)

I did not intend to make Armstrong the victim. 

But the argument can be made that he was just another doper in a long line of dopers. Just because he was a ruthless competitor on and off the bike or you do not like the way he treated his ex-wife does not make him any more evil or the Overlord in doping in cycling. 

He felt he had to dope to compete. If I remember correctly Hincapie testified having that conversation with Armstrong early on after a bad performance. They both doped. Both profited. Both won multiple TdF titles. 

Yet one is ostracized and banned for life. The other rode the Classics and his last TdF this year in good standing and is given a pass because he is a nice guy. 

All the riders involved made a choice. Saying that Armstrong "forced" them is absurd. If they did not want to dope they should have decided to go ride with a "clean" team. Or was Armstrong pushing his drugs and forcing the other teams and hundreds of riders too.


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## PatheticHack (Oct 24, 2010)

FR hokeypokey said:


> Why isn't Armstrong a "victim" of a corrupt cycling culture as much as any other rider? Why a lifetime ban for him, yet minimal suspensions for self confessed dopers? Why admiration for riders that were caught then confessed and "told the truth" in testimony or books about the ringleader? The big fish analogy does not fly. How many other team leaders and Grand Tour winners have been caught and given only one or two year suspensions.
> 
> But apparently Armstrong is the root of all doping in cycling. an example has to be made.


I don't think that most people on this forum believe that Armstrong is the "root of all doping in cycling". As someone mentioned in another thread, cycling history is replete with guys who were "just another doper". And, yes, they "chose" to allow themselves to fall "victim" (in a sense) to a corrupt cycling culture. However, I draw a distinction between LA and many of the other dopers. If you want to shoot-up then, fine, go ahead and shoot-up. That's my definition of "just another doper".

There's a big difference when you shoot-up because you believe you must to compete, but you don't stop there like many other members of the peloton did. You actively encourage, even coerce, others to dope. You demand more aggressive doping both for yourself and others. You attempt to intimidate anyone who doesn't want to fall lock-step in line with your demands. You do everything you possibly can to ruin the careers of those who see you for what you truly are and want no part. You dispatch your entire kennel of pitbull attorneys on anyone who dares speak or print the truth about you. Then you become pathologically self-righteous in your unending denials. 

No, I'm sorry, Lance Armstrong was nothing like any other doper. He certainly didn't create doping, but he elevated it like few ever have. And what's he really going to suffer in the end? I seriously doubt he'll ever see the inside of a jail cell. He may likely have to give-up some money, but at the end of the day he'll still be a multi-millionaire. He'll probably deservedly be stripped of most of his major titles. And I'm sure he'll remain a hero and martyr to countless fans who'll hold fast to the belief that he simply did what was necessary to compete on a level playing field with all the other cheaters. 

Like my mother always used to say, "If you wanna lie, go ahead, be a man and lie. But don't you dare have the gall to ask me to lie for you!" And most importantly I absolutely did not want my future granchildren to one day, when this scandal has long since been forgotten, look at the Tour de France record book and see the name of an unrepentant cheater listed seven times as the most decorated champion of all time!


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## husonfirst (Jul 15, 2006)

Cycling fans will still remain cycling fans. Those who were Lance fans followed cycling because of Lance, and likely stopped following when he retired.


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## husonfirst (Jul 15, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> This sounds so personal. Why? Assuming that the guy hasn't done anything directly to you, why are you so passionate about it?


I think that response stems from the fact that the schoolyard bully finally gets knocked down a few pegs.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

I bought Apple stock at $12 and boy was I happy when I was right - made money

I knew LA was doping for around ten years - didn't waste money looking like a sheep on Trek bikes, UPS jerseys, stupid yellow bracelets or blindly following some frat-wanna-be jerk.

So excuse me for being right and just a bit smug!!!!


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> While it sucks that Lance and his buddies drug the sport through the mud the sport will emerge stronger from this mess


I don't see any reason that it will. There will always be cheating when money is to be made.



RkFast said:


> As far as the sport goes, its even worse. Doping is done in all sports, but when the GOVERNING BODY is not just looking the other way, but in on the fix, then the sport has zero credibility and when you cant trust anybody, you dont have a competition anymore. You have professional wrestling. And while that can be entertaining, its not what I signed up for here.


This is a description of all professional ball sports. Everyone agrees that it is entertainment (notice how NFL and MLB call their title's "World" championships?) and everyone gets their money from the same sources. They have no reason to stop it. The fans certainly don't care.



MG537 said:


> I disagree with you.
> Contador is a symptom. Tyler was symptom. Basso too. Jan as well as many others.
> Lance, like Kimmage once put it not so long ago, was the disease.
> He wasn't just another doper, like he could've been, but took it upon himself to play judge, jury and executioner within the ranks as well.
> Now with this particular infected group gone, maybe the organization will root out the two remaining big names. McQuaid and Verbruggen. That's what I hope for, at least.


He's only the one we know about. There is no reason to believe that many other teams didn't pressure their riders to dope. I would expect any team run by Manolo Saiz (Once, where Bruyneel rode) to do that for instance. They all dope to try to earn the best living they can and Lance earned the most. Riders fought hard to earn their spots on his team because USPS paid well and apparently could guarantee the best dope and the least likelihood of being caught. Don't believe the victim stories, that's an old trick that most caught dopers to do allow an easier path back in (or to sell books). They didn't "come forward" (they were pressured by evidence), they're not sorry and they sure didn't start and stop when they say they did.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Yea, I am happy. Gives me some sense that justice will be served to those that cheat and deceive their way to the top.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

natedg200202 said:


> Yea, I am happy. Gives me some sense that justice will be served to those that cheat and deceive their way to the top.


Good thing politicians are honest. Same with my bosses.


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

davidka:


> He's only the one we know about. There is no reason to believe that many other teams didn't pressure their riders to dope. I would expect any team run by Manolo Saiz (Once, where Bruyneel rode) to do that for instance. They all dope to try to earn the best living they can and Lance earned the most. Riders fought hard to earn their spots on his team because USPS paid well and apparently could guarantee the best dope and the least likelihood of being caught. Don't believe the victim stories, that's an old trick that most caught dopers to do allow an easier path back in (or to sell books). They didn't "come forward" (they were pressured by evidence), they're not sorry and they sure didn't start and stop when they say they did.


Got it. It gets fuzzy when it's not clear what to value. Everyone did it. Lance did it the best. Just trying to compete. Paid well. Easy path. etc. It's confusing...

But if you value the _truth_ everything coalesces and things become quite clear. View it through that lens and it's not complicated at all.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Wrong
> 
> Basso, Scarponi, Ferarri, Valverde, Pozzato.....all sanctioned by CONI. 70 riders are currently being investigated in the Ferrari case.


So, Valverde wasn't allowed to race, win, and keep is '09 Vuelta title despite being implicated in Puerto? His sentence somehow started right after the Vuelta? Seems like favoritism.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

MG537 said:


> I disagree with you.
> Contador is a symptom. Tyler was symptom. Basso too. Jan as well as many others.
> Lance, like Kimmage once put it not so long ago, was the disease.
> He wasn't just another doper, like he could've been, but took it upon himself to play judge, jury and executioner within the ranks as well.
> Now with this particular infected group gone, maybe the organization will root out the two remaining big names. McQuaid and Verbruggen. That's what I hope for, at least.


Nope, Contador is an indicator something is wrong, Lance was the clearest indicator that something was _radically wrong_ within the sport. But remember, there was was cheating, doping and organisers looking the other way _long_ before Lance. Look at the history of the TDF, there were riders being beaten up by the fans of rivals before WWII. The organisers looked the other way and made basically honest men cheat and lie and dope to sell their newspapers. Lance happened because people let him happen.Lance went to extreme lengths to protect his ass, and those who knew what he was up to. Those people are still in their jobs. They stay, the disease stays. It's as simple as that.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> So, Valverde wasn't allowed to race, win, and keep is '09 Vuelta title despite being implicated in Puerto? His sentence somehow started right after the Vuelta? Seems like favoritism.


You didn't follow the case did you?

Valverde lost his CAS case until May 31, 2010.......but what about your point about other countries not doing what USADA did? France did it, Germany did it, Most of Italy's top riders have served a suspension and the Ferrari case should drop any day. Do you still think this is still just a US issue?


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

BigDweeb said:


> davidka:
> 
> Got it. It gets fuzzy when it's not clear what to value. Everyone did it. Lance did it the best. Just trying to compete. Paid well. Easy path. etc. It's confusing...
> 
> But if you value the _truth_ everything coalesces and things become quite clear. View it through that lens and it's not complicated at all.


I am not confused about what's going on in the sport. I'm a little confused by your post, not sure what you're getting at.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You didn't follow the case did you?
> 
> Valverde lost his CAS case until May 31, 2010.......but what about your point about other countries not doing what USADA did? France did it, Germany did it, Most of Italy's top riders have served a suspension and the Ferrari case should drop any day. Do you still think this is still just a US issue?


You say this stuff like you actually believe it's honest. Hilarious. :thumbsup:


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

davidka, I'm reacting to folks making various arguments that seem to remove culpability from those that cheated and lied (cheating being a form of lying). And I was trying to say that none of that matters and the truth is paramount.

When you say "There will always be cheating when money is to be made" it gave me the impression that you're excusing the behavior.

But I see that is not necessarily the case. My apologies if I have misinterpreted your position.


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## Slartibartfast (Jul 22, 2007)

*Simply an aspect of pro sports...*

Not so much happy as relieved that it's now out in the open. Everyone can now see that this is how it's done at the highest levels of professional sports. When they see a Sestriere, an Hautacam, or 73 homeruns, they'll understand what is happening. Doping is simply one more way of gaining an edge, like relying on advanced training techniques, developing light-weight and aerodynamic equipment, using sound team strategy and in-race tactics, and embracing proper nutrition and hydration regimens. It's pervasive.

Most on this forum already knew this, and were waiting for the inevitable to happen. But now maybe the general public will know to look askance at guys like Lance, Barry, Tiger, et al. Maybe enjoy them as entertainment rather than revere them as heroes.


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## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

*Lance Almost Had It All*

He was driven, focussed, a perfectionist, he knew the mental game, but he came up short. This guy got it right.


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## tnvol123 (Sep 11, 2012)

I just think it's a very sad situation.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> You say this stuff like you actually believe it's honest. Hilarious. :thumbsup:


You call me a liar but make no effort to prove me wrong:thumbsup:

The fact is after Festina many of French riders were sanctioned and some of the staff ended up in prison. The French introduced longitudinal testing and rapidly became irrelevant as the sport continued to dope.

Germany had the Freiburg report. http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/JJ+Attachment+A.2+Freiburg+Report.ENGLISH.pdf

Many of the riders admitted doping, the media crucified them, Germany doping laws were strengthen greatly. The sport suffered but it is bouncing back. 

You are welcome to pretend this is just mean old USADA going after your hero but we both know that is not the case. When Ferrari is arrested just blame it on USADA


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## Chris Oz (Oct 8, 2005)

oily666 said:


> He was driven, focussed, a perfectionist, he knew the mental game, but he came up short. This guy got it right.


Yup if he hadn't made the come back and had stopped racing it may have all settled into the past. But he fell for the hubris and now he has fallen for real.

Personally I see it as an opportunity for a fresh start. If we are lucky institutionalised doping will fail and not restart. There will always be idiots like Lance but they will know to live in fear. The rest of the riders will know that they can choose to ride clean - it becomes a choice not a burnt dream.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Yup, the Italian's would never do anything like this..... riiiight :thumbsup:

Gazzetta Reveals Scale Of Doping And Money Laundering Under Dr Ferrari | Cyclingnews.com

Riders implicated include Michele Scarponi, Denis Menchov, Alexandre Kolobnev, Vladimir Gusev, Vladimir Karpets, Mikhail Ignatiev, Evgeni Petrov and Alberto Ongarato. 


Police have targeted 20 teams from a four-year period and have obtained riders contracts from some of the biggest teams in the sport to compare them to those registered with the UCI. The teams named by Gazzetta are: Liquigas, Lampre, Colnago, Geox, Androni, Katusha, Quick Step, Cnf-Inox, Farnese Vini, Acqua&Sapone, Astana, RadioShack, Vacansoleil, Isd, Csf, Lpr, Diquigiovanni, Tinkoff, Rabobank, Gerolsteiner and Milram.


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

An interesting perspective and read here:The Case Against "The Case Against Lance Armstrong"

_"Let’s remember that the history of the sport we’re talking about here is more or less the history of doping. From the end of the 19th century to the present day, competitive cyclists have injected, swallowed, or otherwise consumed for the purposes of performance enhancement wine, brandy, whiskey, Champagne, horse ointment, strychnine, cocaine, cocaine metabolites, cannabis, nitroglycerin, chloroform, aspirin, amphetamines, solucamphre, ronicol, nicotinyl alcohol tartrate, peripheral vasodilators, palfium, fencamfamine, coramine, cortisone, pemoline, tetracosactide, ritalin, probenecid, celestone, amineptine, HGH, HCG, EPO, bromantan, bronchodilators, clenbuterol, ephedrine, norbolethone, probenecid, norandrosterone, noretiocholanolone, Aranesp, heptaminol, nicethamide, phentermine, clostebol, carphedone, stanozolol, prednisolone, prednisone, triamcinolone acetonide, metelonone, benzoylecgonine, methylecgonine, triamcinolone acetonide, salbutamol, salmeterol, finasteride, dehydroepiandrosterone, methylhexanamine, methoxy polyethylene glycol-epoetin beta, and powdered boar testicles. To name a few.
Abusing any of these substances is probably very bad for you. So is pedaling a bike really fast up a very big mountain, day after day after day (an activity, incidentally, that is every bit as unnatural as anything on WADA’s naughty list). As long as the sport requires its athletes to push themselves to the outer limits of their aerobic capability, those athletes will respond by exploring the outer limits of modern pharmacology."_


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)




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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

Doping is what the sport of cycling is. It's what has always been. We all just simply learned about it, and in the moral views of some, which they probably got from watching Hulk Hogan in the 80s (he was doping too btw), decided that it was somehow wrong. This is simply a case of some people trying to turn this sport into something that's never been. Maybe you should pick another sport where doping for sure doesn't happen. If a completely naive person were to read this forum he/she would thing that all it takes to win the TDF is taking a few EPO supplements.


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