# Bike fit just doesn't seem right...



## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Hello all - I'd SERIOUSLY appreciate a fit guru looking at these numbers, as my LBS has sold me two bikes (one preassembled, one that I'm building up), and I've got the Specialized BG 2D fit on my assembled bike. I'm still wondering if the frame sizes are even right for me....

My measurements as entered in to Wrench Science and the resulting recommendations:









My bike:









Even though the thingy under the stem reads 23 degrees, and it's already a super short and highly upward angled stem, I STILL feel stretched out just reaching the hoods. I do centuries on this bike and it's rather annoying.

My bike is the 53cm. Here is the data on the frame:









Also, for kicks, the CAAD9 I'm working on (only thing I don't have is the stem) is a 54cm (per LBS recommendations). Here is the data on that frame:









Is my LBS yanking my chain? Am I really on the right frame??

What say you?


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

screw the numbers man...lets see some pictures with you on it...pedals horizontal, and vertical under load would be the best case scenario....seriously

edit..AND how old are you and how long you been on road bikes?


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Sorry Chief!  I'm at work and my bike is at home so I can't take any photos at the moment. This is the best I have on me, but I realize it doesn't help illustrate the problem I'm discussing  










Everything feels fine, with the exception of the fact that I end up using the tops all the time cause the hoods are just too far away to relax on. I'll try and take some photos this weekend and you'll probably see what I mean.

Disclaimer: The majority of my extra weight is contained in my belly and love handles still, so I realize it makes it "feel" like I'm stretched out more than I likely am. I only started 7-8 months ago and I was FAT before I started, so I'm working on it as fast as I can 

Cheers!
-Chris


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

25 years old.

7-8 months.

I also have a leg length discrepancy, but they took care of that during the 2D Fit.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

ok.....from the pic you posted it look.s..not too bad...trust me when I say you WILL become more flexible.....my newest bike has a longer reach and larger saddle to bar drop than any of my others. IF your legs and knees are OK then I would suggest a shorter stem....FOR NOW...you may want to switch back later. Granted I am NO EXPERT, but I got aches and pains older than you and NONE of them are from riding!
Bend your elbows and bend at the waist a bit.......does your back hurt?...or are you just feeling stretched out?

edit: FWIW work on CORE strength...situps etc...it will help the lower back!


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Touch0Gray said:


> ok.....from the pic you posted it look.s..not too bad...trust me when I say you WILL become more flexible.....my newest bike has a longer reach and larger saddle to bar drop than any of my others. IF your legs and knees are OK then I would suggest a shorter stem....FOR NOW...you may want to switch back later. Granted I am NO EXPERT, but I got aches and pains older than you and NONE of them are from riding!
> Bend your elbows and bend at the waist a bit.......does your back hurt?...or are you just feeling stretched out?
> 
> edit: FWIW work on CORE strength...situps etc...it will help the lower back!


Thanks for the response  I don't know if I could get a stem much shorter or with a higher rise. The spacers are maxed out under the stem too. It just seems like I need a shorter top tube or something. I know over time I end up essentially locking my elbows and getting sore elbows, because my lower back flexibility isn't all that great. I mean look that this stem - it looks ridiculous 










For core work, I'm pretty much just doing leg lifts. I've been focusing almost entirely on getting as many miles as possible in - focusing on the weight loss aspect, because the only problem I ever have is hills (after a certain point) - and all that extra body fat... not helping any


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## Dresden (May 26, 2009)

Yeah, it's the gut. It's going to make it hard for you to bend which means you're going to be trying to reach with your arms. And if you bend very much your knees are going to be bumping into your belly. Give it time--as the weight comes off you'll be able to bend more. The set-up they have you on looks reasonable to me. If you'd gotten a smaller bike to make the reach shorter, you'd be dealing with a shorter head tube which would make getting the bars that high difficult.

How sure are you about that arm length measurement? That's mainly what's making your Wrench Science number for reach conflict with the TT length of the bike you're on. The flexibility number likely also impacts that, but 5 for flexibility is probably accurate or at least easier than arm length to get right if you're doing the measuring yourself.


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Dresden said:


> Yeah, it's the gut. It's going to make it hard for you to bend which means you're going to be trying to reach with your arms. And if you bend very much your knees are going to be bumping into your belly. Give it time--as the weight comes off you'll be able to bend more. The set-up they have you on looks reasonable to me. If you'd gotten a smaller bike to make the reach shorter, you'd be dealing with a shorter head tube which would make getting the bars that high difficult.
> 
> How sure are you about that arm length measurement? That's mainly what's making your Wrench Science number for reach conflict with the TT length of the bike you're on. The flexibility number likely also impacts that, but 5 for flexibility is probably accurate or at least easier than arm length to get right if you're doing the measuring yourself.


I just tried doing the arm measurement myself - it's tough. The measurement is either accurate, or just a little short from the actual length. Yes I know the gut has a lot to do with it, but the guy I ride with is bigger than me, has a fairly long stem, no crazy angle, and his position is more upright than mine. He rides a Specialized Allez.

Hmmm. I can't lose the gut any faster! 

Edit: Just an update - all of the measurements were done by someone else, so they should be pretty accurate


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## Dresden (May 26, 2009)

Okay, the reason I was asking is because I have pretty much the same measurements you do for height, sternal notch, and inseam but apparently longer arms. A couple of my bikes are 55cm TT bikes. One has 100mm 73 degree stem flipped up(which would be 17 degree vs your 23 degree stem)--very short head tube on that bike of mine though. The other has a 90mm 84 degree stem unflipped. A couple of inches of saddle to bar drop.

How much off does your fit seem to you? Are you comfortable on the ramps(the part of the bar just before the hoods?)

btw, I wasn't really accurate about knees hitting the gut--more like the upper part of the leg bumping and interfering with pedal stroke.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

RoadBikeVirgin said:


> Thanks for the response  I don't know if I could get a stem much shorter or with a higher rise. The spacers are maxed out under the stem too. It just seems like I need a shorter top tube or something. I know over time I end up essentially locking my elbows and getting sore elbows, because my lower back flexibility isn't all that great. I mean look that this stem - it looks ridiculous
> For core work, I'm pretty much just doing leg lifts. I've been focusing almost entirely on getting as many miles as possible in - focusing on the weight loss aspect, because the only problem I ever have is hills (after a certain point) - and all that extra body fat... not helping any


I think as you ride more and your flexibility improves, the bike will be fine, I still want to see a pic of you on it from the side with pedals horizontal and vertical....when you get around to it.

This is the reason that threaded stems were better, IMO, you could change height without changing stems.

I used to have the same problem, BUT it takes a conscious effort NOT to lock your elbows, concentrate on that, ALSO you need to concentrate on bending at the waist and keeping the hips at the right angle. If you have no lower back pain, then it really doesn't seem like you are stretched out TOO far.

Try doing ab-crunches too....that will help lower back tremendously. AND stretch.......stretching the ham's will help flexibility more than you can imagine.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I think you look pretty good on the bike. Just stay on the tops of bars for a while. Or get bars with less of a drop to the drops.


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## felix5150 (Mar 15, 2009)

You can rotate the bars up a little and as you lose weight and increase flexibility you can rotate them down to where they are now.


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Dresden said:


> Okay, the reason I was asking is because I have pretty much the same measurements you do for height, sternal notch, and inseam but apparently longer arms. A couple of my bikes are 55cm TT bikes. One has 100mm 73 degree stem flipped up(which would be 17 degree vs your 23 degree stem)--very short head tube on that bike of mine though. The other has a 90mm 84 degree stem unflipped. A couple of inches of saddle to bar drop.
> 
> How much off does your fit seem to you? Are you comfortable on the ramps(the part of the bar just before the hoods?)
> 
> btw, I wasn't really accurate about knees hitting the gut--more like the upper part of the leg bumping and interfering with pedal stroke.


Thanks a lot for the info  I can stand long rides, but yes it does seem like most of the time I'm on the ramps (I was going to say that previously but couldn't remember the name of it). I guess I just wish I was sitting more upright. As an out of shape guy doing centuries, we're talking like 7 hours on the bike. At the slow speeds I travel, it doesn't seem like lowering wind resistance is too much of a concern :lol:


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Touch0Gray said:


> I think as you ride more and your flexibility improves, the bike will be fine, I still want to see a pic of you on it from the side with pedals horizontal and vertical....when you get around to it.
> 
> This is the reason that threaded stems were better, IMO, you could change height without changing stems.
> 
> ...


I certainly NEED to start concentrating more on not locking my elbows - it seems like I'm almost getting tennis elbow from it. I'll also try and work on my lower back/hamstring flexibility, and add in some crunches to my routine  As per your request, here are some photos. I also have a short video now, although the file size is too big for photobucket - I'll have to find another place to post it. And now for the pics! (beware, fatty images below!!)

Hoods - vertical









Hoods - horizontal









Tops - vertical









Tops - horizontal









Drops - vertical









Drops - horizontal


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

felix5150 said:


> You can rotate the bars up a little and as you lose weight and increase flexibility you can rotate them down to where they are now.


I'm seriously considering giving that a shot


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Mapei said:


> I think you look pretty good on the bike. Just stay on the tops of bars for a while. Or get bars with less of a drop to the drops.


I probably will continue to spend most of my time on the ramps and tops, and hopefully as this belly continues to melt away I'll be able to use more positions 

And yes, I probably should have purchased the compact version of the bars I bought, but I found a really good deals on these so I went from them


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## Dresden (May 26, 2009)

Size-wise, you look like reach to the hoods shouldn't be a problem. Do you have the flexibility and core strength ride with your hips rolled more clockwise? I think a lot of your reach problem would be solved by that. Might feel a bit strange at first and you might have to make some saddle tilt adjustment to relieve pressure on your crotch, but it would flatten your back and make it easier to reach the hoods. It would put you more similar to photo 1 in his link rather than photo 2. http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/09/road-bike-posture.html


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## Dresden (May 26, 2009)

Your saddle looks a little to high to me, too.

edit: On second thought, it may just be the angle of the photo making me think your saddle might be a little high.


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## shaochieh (Apr 19, 2002)

Agree the saddle does seem just a tad high.


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Dresden said:


> Size-wise, you look like reach to the hoods shouldn't be a problem. Do you have the flexibility and core strength ride with your hips rolled more clockwise? I think a lot of your reach problem would be solved by that. Might feel a bit strange at first and you might have to make some saddle tilt adjustment to relieve pressure on your crotch, but it would flatten your back and make it easier to reach the hoods. It would put you more similar to photo 1 in his link rather than photo 2. http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/09/road-bike-posture.html


To me, conceptually it seems like you're saying I should be tilting my pelvis forward? (i.e. top of pelvis forward, bottom of pelvis backword) During my bike fit, I tried to ask them questions like this but they wouldn't tell me anything about the optimal positioning. They said the prefer riders to go with what is "natural." Some good that does me! 

Thanks again for your help. I'll consider dropping the saddle a tiny bit as well and see how that makes my body feel. 

Another thing I completely forgot to mention! After they finished my 2D Fit, I rode an hour on the trainer that night and my legs were just dead. It really felt like my saddle was too far back! I ended up sliding it forward approximately 2 centimeters and all of the pains went away. Did I screw myself? Should I have left it where they had it longer? It just seemed like stretching to reach the handlebars was even more difficult.

Thanks again for all of the opinions!

-Chris


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## Dresden (May 26, 2009)

Correct, top of the pelvis tilted more forward, bottom of the pelvis tilted more back. It will feel like you're somewhat swaying your lower back compared to the way you're currently sitting on the bike. Depending on the degree of pelvic tilt you may even find that the saddle could be moved back a bit.

I'm not a fit guru, but I think your fitter might have let you down a little by just saying to do what feels natural, but he may have just been counting on your position evolving as you gained some experience on the bike.

Give the pelvic tilt a thorough try--you can always revert to your current positioning if you end up not liking it.


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Dresden said:


> Correct, top of the pelvis tilted more forward, bottom of the pelvis tilted more back. It will feel like you're somewhat swaying your lower back compared to the way you're currently sitting on the bike. Depending on the degree of pelvic tilt you may even find that the saddle could be moved back a bit.
> 
> I'm not a fit guru, but I think your fitter might have let you down a little by just saying to do what feels natural, but he may have just been counting on your position evolving as you gained some experience on the bike.
> 
> Give the pelvic tilt a thorough try--you can always revert to your current positioning if you end up not liking it.


Thanks Dresden  I certainly will give it a shot.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

I agree, I would mark the seatpost where it is now and lower it in 5 mm increments. Your right leg seems to be extended too far and that is with the toes pointed slightly down.

You had mentioned leg difference issues, so if this in compensation for that, you might need to shim the sorter side.

With the seat down a bit, you might find the reach does not seem as far. 

edit: actually it WILL bring the seat further forward so you MAY need to slid it back a touch. FIRST thing to do is MEASURE saddle nose to bars distance and record it Mark the post as well... so you can put it back if the changes are not right


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

Touch0Gray said:


> I agree, I would mark the seatpost where it is now and lower it in 5 mm increments. Your right leg seems to be extended too far and that is with the toes pointed slightly down.
> 
> You had mentioned leg difference issues, so if this in compensation for that, you might need to shim the sorter side.
> 
> ...


Will do - thanks buddy!


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

My buddy was so used to riding a poorly fit bike that when he was set up correctly he rejected it and went to three different fittings to end up with a seat that was too low and a frame too big.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Dajianshan said:


> My buddy was so used to riding a poorly fit bike that when he was set up correctly he rejected it and went to three different fittings to end up with a seat that was too low and a frame too big.


That happens more often than one would think. Then again, who's to say that there's something wrong with that if the rider with a seat too low and a frame too big can knock off 100 pain-free miles in about 5 hours?


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## mendo (Apr 18, 2007)

to the OP. It occured to me that there's someone on these forums with the profile name "wookiebiker" who apparently lost a ton of weight through cycling. You might pm him and ask him his experiece of how his position changed during the course of his physical transformation.

When I purchased my first road bike, I didn't really know what to expect from a fitting. The sales person basically ballparked the saddle height and watched me peddle on the trainer for a minute, and it kind of pisses me off, thinking back about how casual it was.

I think whoever sold you the bike didn't do their job. You have that cockpit at the abosolute limit as far as minimizing saddle to bar drop and reducing reach. To me, that means you have the wrong frame.


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

mendo said:


> to the OP. It occured to me that there's someone on these forums with the profile name "wookiebiker" who apparently lost a ton of weight through cycling. You might pm him and ask him his experiece of how his position changed during the course of his physical transformation.
> 
> When I purchased my first road bike, I didn't really know what to expect from a fitting. The sales person basically ballparked the saddle height and watched me peddle on the trainer for a minute, and it kind of pisses me off, thinking back about how casual it was.
> 
> I think whoever sold you the bike didn't do their job. You have that cockpit at the abosolute limit as far as minimizing saddle to bar drop and reducing reach. To me, that means you have the wrong frame.


I've read several posts by wookiebiker so I know exactly who you're talking about. That's a good idea

That's the way I feel about the bike as well. I've seen plenty of heavier riders with setups that don't require them to be so stretched out on "comfort frames" with tiny, high angled stems. Bleh.


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