# Counterfeit Bikes - Pinarello, etc.



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Or, "No Virginia, you really *can't* buy a Pinarello frame for $600."

This is purely informational, as I felt a counterpoint was needed to the illogical postulation about fake Pinarellos from Great Keen Bike in China being real, actual - but "OEM" - Pinarello frames.

They are not.

Counterfeiting is a crime. Since this is taking place in China, there is nothing anyone in the US can do about it. Ergo, the only things stopping people from supporting illegal, unethical behaviour are their own morals, ethics, and conscience. 

Don't be a tool. Counterfeit bikes are wrong. Hell, counterfeit anything is wrong.

Do you believe that counterfeiting is somehow not wrong? That getting a bike that looks like a Pinarello is worth purchasing an illegal product? Let's hear your reasoning...


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Lol...you...  

As mush as I like a good deal...I don't think I'd buy a bootleg frame.

If I got a blank China frame...I'd leave it as it is or put my own logo on there.

Kind of like buying a blank skateboard deck...


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

I agree completely. It is a crime, similar to stealing software, patent infringement or copyright violations. A fake Pinarello is a stolen Pinarello.

However, I think that this trend is a direct result of the way the industry has purposely devalued the connection between design and production. If Pinarello (and everyone else who moved production overseas) hadn't convinced the world that anyone in Asia can make a bike just as good as anyone else, the general public would have more reason to value Pinarello's intellectual property. But many people no longer believe that the designers are doing much more than handing a pictures and a spec sheet over a Chinese engineer who does all the hard stuff. And in the face of that belief, it is hard to feel like Pinarello has earned their percentage for what appears to be so little actual labor.

So it is stealing. But the big companies have brought this on themselves.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> I agree completely. It is a crime, similar to stealing software, patent infringement or copyright violations. A fake Pinarello is a stolen Pinarello.
> 
> However, I think that this trend is a direct result of the way the industry has purposely devalued the connection between design and production. If Pinarello (and everyone else who moved production overseas) hadn't convinced the world that anyone in Asia can make a bike just as good as anyone else, the general public would have more reason to value Pinarello's intellectual property. But many people no longer believe that the designers are doing much more than handing a pictures and a spec sheet over a Chinese engineer who does all the hard stuff. And in the face of that belief, it is hard to feel like Pinarello has earned their percentage for what appears to be so little actual labor.
> 
> So it is stealing. But the big companies have brought this on themselves.


I get your logic but I don't think that theory holds any water when you consider that the king of fake items is Swiss watches and they never outsourced to Asia to begin with. So that wouldn't appear to be a necessary condition for knock off to flourish.
And I think most people understand the differnce between a legit. Asian business contracted to do something and a knock off factory in Asia with no connection.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

My favourite is the "Pinarellos are made in Asia. This fake is made in Asia. It must be OEM."

That's about as idiotic as saying "This Huffy was made in the US. It looks like this Trek that was also made in the US. Ergo, Huffy makes Trek."


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> I agree completely. It is a crime, similar to stealing software, patent infringement or copyright violations. A fake Pinarello is a stolen Pinarello.
> 
> However, I think that this trend is a direct result of the way the industry has purposely devalued the connection between design and production. If Pinarello (and everyone else who moved production overseas) hadn't convinced the world that anyone in Asia can make a bike just as good as anyone else, the general public would have more reason to value Pinarello's intellectual property. But many people no longer believe that the designers are doing much more than handing a pictures and a spec sheet over a Chinese engineer who does all the hard stuff. And in the face of that belief, it is hard to feel like Pinarello has earned their percentage for what appears to be so little actual labor.
> 
> So it is stealing. But the big companies have brought this on themselves.


Unfortunately, that's rarely the case.

You are not only paying for a name, but for the engineering behind that name (and warranty, shop support, crash replacement if needed, etc etc). You can't tell me for one second that these Greatkeen bike frames are engineered to the same specs that a Pinarello Prince is. Yet, some posters will claim that "well they all came from china, so these must be just extras run off at the same plant." Hell, they don't even have the same style BB cups, so how can they be OEM or "the same" as the real thing?

The problem isn't the fact that there are chinese direct frames. While I think it's somewhat lame to have an unbranded frame, at least I can respect the bike for what it is. These bo-tards who are buying Pinarello-ish frames and having them painted to match the real thing are just really losers. You're not fooling anyone with your counterfeit junk, and you're really just making your insecurities show very brightly. 

Here in America, it seems most people don't care about intellectual property, morality, ethics, craftsmanship etc etc when purchasing many things. That's a sad narrative on the way our society has gone down the toilet in the past few decades.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

AvantDale said:


> Lol...you...


Well, it was made very clear that I wasn't welcome in the "Let's all feel good about our cheap, fake frames" thread. Yet I still wanted to make sure that any newbies who wander in realize that the fake Pinarellos are NOT real "OEM" Pinarellos, as some of the denizens of that forum (who never seem to actually leave that forum, or have more than 100 posts) seem to believe and repeat frequently.

If a Pinarello breaks while you're riding it, you have some legal recourse. If a fake Pinarello breaks while you're riding it, what exactly are you going to do?


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

Chalk me up as one of those who don't really see a problem with this. The only thing I really have any issue with is labeling the bike as Pinarello and trying to 100% knock off the frame and design down to the last decal. If someone wanted to buy one of these bikes and get a very very similar bike for a fraction of the cost, I say let them do as they please. For me, the line gets drawn when people go out of their way to try to make them look identical. Otherwise, a budget frame that is very similar to a US brand's frame is just that.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

So people actually think they're getting the real thing?

WFT?

I just assumed they were bought by posers. You know, like a fake Rolex just to show everyone they have a rolex....not to actually believe it themself.


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## Guymk (Mar 27, 2009)

You are correct that these Chinarellos are NOT OEM pinarello frames. And I agree that buying something that is a complete copy of a high end something is just wrong. I did however buy a chinese carbon frame, but i bought one that is not a direct copy of any specific brand. Buying a knock off just says "I am a poseur".


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Vee said:


> Chalk me up as one of those who don't really see a problem with this. The only thing I really have any issue with is labeling the bike as Pinarello and trying to 100% knock off the frame and design down to the last decal. If someone wanted to buy one of these bikes and get a very very similar bike for a fraction of the cost, I say let them do as they please. For me, the line gets drawn when people go out of their way to try to make them look identical. Otherwise, a budget frame that is very similar to a US brand's frame is just that.


Here's what I want explained to me, with some facts to back it up:

HOW is it a very similar bike? Was it engineered using the same brand and modulus of carbon? Layup? Resin? What are the ride characteristics? Tube thicknesses, diameters, moulding processes... Nobody has bothered to answer these questions except "well the guy told me so and they're nice to work with, so they must be right."

Any idiot can look at a photo, take some geometry and make a copy. It's the subtle engineering (that is often closely guarded from the rest of the industry) that makes these bikes what they are (and of course, they demand said prices partly because of these characteristics.) There's a couple pretty well documented cases of Zipp and Ritchey parts being counterfeited out there: they looked the same, measured the same, some even weighed the same. Buy they weren't the same (some in fact shattered under normal use.)

There's a real reason that certain items are priced as they are (and before someone gets their panties in a twist, no, it's NOT because companies want a 1000% markup on what they pay for production.)


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Hank Stamper said:


> So people actually think they're getting the real thing?
> 
> WFT?
> 
> I just assumed they were bought by posers. You know, like a fake Rolex just to show everyone they have a rolex....not to actually believe it themself.


You should read some of the delusion in the chinese frame thread. People actually believe they are getting actual pinarello frames that were made "after normal working hours" at a Chinese factory (never mind that the actual factory location and the location of Pinarello's production are in different provinces...)



Guymk said:


> You are correct that these Chinarellos are NOT OEM pinarello frames. And I agree that buying something that is a complete copy of a high end something is just wrong. I did however buy a chinese carbon frame, but i bought one that is not a direct copy of any specific brand. Buying a knock off just says "I am a poseur".


A Chinese frame is fine for what it is. You're not trying to convince yourself that you bought a Cervelo or Pinarello "OEM and before they put paint on it and jacked the price up 500%." You're probably loving your carbon frame, and if it gets you out there riding, that's awesome. I am completely cool with that.

But as you reference, I'm not cool with the dopes buying knock off frames to pass them off as OEMs of a storied and prestigious brand.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> You should read some of the delusion in the chinese frame thread. People actually believe they are getting actual pinarello frames that were made "after normal working hours" at a Chinese factory (never mind that the actual factory location and the location of Pinarello's production are in different provinces...)


Good Lord. You know I've actually been avoiding that thread because I know I'd probably end up saying something I'd regret.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

I think that a lot of people are confused by the difference "manufacturing" and "design." The thought is that if an item is built in the same factory, it's of the same quality. While it's possible that this is true, it's not a given.

Manufacturers built items to specification. The same manufacturer is capable of building wildly different designs, that may look similar but are significantly different. In the case of bicycles, to lower the cost it's easy to use lower quality materials or looser tolerances. The guy welding the bike maybe not change, but the quality of the final product can be significantly different.

In the case of "counterfeit" bikes and parts, just because it looks like the same thing does not mean it is.

My sister used to live overseas. Many of the VHS movies that were available were counterfeits. The worst ones were made by some guy with a handi-cam who sat in a theater, filmed the screen, and recorded audio in the theater (included coughs and babies crying). These were sold as "the real deal." Bikes are the same - maybe not all of them are horrible, but maybe they're well engineered, maybe not. Maybe they're the factory rejects that a worker took home.


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## LandShark'n (Jan 10, 2011)

It would be interesting if someone on this forum could order a few samples of these frames and take a Sawzall to them, bisecting them from head tube to bottom bracket just to see what the insides look like.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> My favourite is the "Pinarellos are made in Asia. This fake is made in Asia. It must be OEM."


Whom are you quoting? Because I haven't seen a single person say that. I'm not calling you a liar or anything, I'm just curious as to who said that, since you were, well, using quotes.

I don't think anyone really believes they're getting a real Pinarello. If so, then they are mistaken. Caveat emptor.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

LandShark'n said:


> It would be interesting if someone on this forum could order a few samples of these frames and take a Sawzall to them, bisecting them from head tube to bottom bracket just to see what the insides look like.


It certainly would be.

We already have some inkling of the quality though: excess resin in head tube races, poorly finished fork crowns that require sanding to fit a race on them, poorly drilled holes necessitating the use of a dremel on the bolt head or the hole itself...

These things don't bode well for the quality of the workmanship on these frames.

Although, it had crossed my mind to simply order one of these for dissection....

Nah, race fees and such are a more intriguing proposition.


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Here's what I want explained to me, with some facts to back it up:
> 
> HOW is it a very similar bike? Was it engineered using the same brand and modulus of carbon? Layup? Resin? What are the ride characteristics? Tube thicknesses, diameters, moulding processes... Nobody has bothered to answer these questions except "well the guy told me so and they're nice to work with, so they must be right."
> 
> ...


In the case of the chinese Pinarello budget frames, they produce frames that are similar/same geometry. Look similar. Are made up of carbon. That is as far as I know in terms of similarities, but I didn't say they were identical, I simply said they were similar, and they are.

sure, there are differences. If you want the real deal then buy the real deal. If you are ok with the budget version then buy that.


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## Kneedragon (Jul 27, 2010)

Fake China rip-off frames are a joke, and I don't see how anybody would even consider riding one.

Does anyone even know what they're made out of? Is it real carbon fiber or some black-dyed fiberglass weave?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Vee said:


> In the case of the chinese Pinarello budget frames, they produce frames that are similar/same geometry. Look similar. Are made up of carbon. That is as far as I know in terms of similarities, but I didn't say they were identical, I simply said they were similar, and they are.
> 
> sure, there are differences. If you want the real deal then buy the real deal. If you are ok with the budget version then buy that.


That's the point. There is a LARGE contingent of people around these forums who actually believe that "similar/same geometry, made of carbon" means that they MUST be OEM rejects or OEMs spirited off the line by some chinese workers who believe "carbon bikes for all!" The simple point that is trying to be made is that these are not OEM frames.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

So what now? You've established that they are NOT OEM Pinarellos, something of which the majority of us were all aware.

Its purpose achieved, does this thread do a few more laps around the wagon of the obvious to make sure it is properly circled?


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Pfffft...no way...this dead horse needs more beating...its not pulpy enough. :crazy:


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DiegoMontoya said:


> So what now? You've established that they are NOT OEM Pinarellos, something of which the majority of us were all aware.
> 
> Its purpose achieved, does this thread do a few more laps around the wagon of the obvious to make sure it is properly circled?


It's here to ensure that people don't wander into the other threads and have the wool pulled over their eyes by zealots who don't understand basic logic.

People deserve the cons as well as the pros of these things. If you're not comfortable with having all the facts out there, perhaps you'd be better off not stopping by, eh?


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Hank Stamper said:


> I get your logic but I don't think that theory holds any water when you consider that the king of fake items is Swiss watches and they never outsourced to Asia to begin with. So that wouldn't appear to be a necessary condition for knock off to flourish.
> And I think most people understand the differnce between a legit. Asian business contracted to do something and a knock off factory in Asia with no connection.


Actually, you've just illustrated the problem. If you have a Rolex looking thing that came from China, it is easy to say "but it isn't a real Rolex, because Rolex's plant is in Switzerland." Simple. (And the result of some really smart thinking by the Swiss on what should be considered "Swiss made".)

But if Rolexes were made in an "undisclosed location in China", then the apparent difference between the two becomes really small. Especially if you keep getting the feeling that Rolex is designing the features and look of the watch, but leaving the engineering horology to China. 

That's were we stand right now - no one is entirely sure what it means for something to be a Pinarello. Just how detailed was that CAD model? How much real-world prototyping was done in Italy by the designers? How important was the selection of the production facility? The consumer has no idea. 

Cervelo sells bikes designed in Canada and built in China. When they wanted something closer to home, they had some frames made in California. How is Cervelo designing bikes with zero production capacity that they can't even build their $10,000 limited frames in house?


Sorry if that comes off as a rant, but to consumers, "Asia" is a black box that produces bicycle frames. There is no apparent differentiation between the Cervelo level plant and the one Schwinns come out of, so there is very little appreciation for what makes a Cervelo different from a Pinarello or a Neuvation, "Motobecane" or GT. And there is no clear cut line that let's us know that Pinarello did much more than sketch something on a napkin and mail it to China. In reality, I doubt many brands are much more than that.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> It's here to ensure that people don't wander into the other threads and have the wool pulled over their eyes by zealots who don't understand basic logic.
> 
> People deserve the cons as well as the pros of these things. If you're not comfortable with having all the facts out there,* perhaps you'd be better off not stopping by, eh?*


No, I don't want to pull the same crap on "my" thread that they did to me on "theirs".... Let them be the "you disagree, so you can't post here" guys.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

DiegoMontoya said:


> Whom are you quoting? Because I haven't seen a single person say that. I'm not calling you a liar or anything, I'm just curious as to who said that, since you were, well, using quotes.
> 
> I don't think anyone really believes they're getting a real Pinarello. If so, then they are mistaken. Caveat emptor.


Here are a couple I grabbed really quickly...




5thdisciple said:


> Anyone know anything about these Taiwanese Colnago *OEM* Lugged frames?
> 
> read about it over on the WW forum





mrbubbles said:


> BB threads are easy, there's no discernible differences between Italian or English BB. Even if it is English BB, that alone hardly negates the fact that the geometries are identical, along with details like tube sizing, ridges, and headset specification. *There's enough evidence to considered that these are oems, no matter how much you want to believe they are fake.*


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> No, I don't want to pull the same crap on "my" thread that they did to me on "theirs".... Let them be the "you disagree, so you can't post here" guys.


Well, it depends if they can play nicely when the other shoe drops.

Many of them have shown extreme testiness when questioned.



rx-79g said:


> Sorry if that comes off as a rant, but to consumers, "Asia" is a black box that produces bicycle frames. There is no apparent differentiation between the Cervelo level plant and the one Schwinns come out of, so there is very little appreciation for what makes a Cervelo different from a Pinarello or a Neuvation, "Motobecane" or GT. And there is no clear cut line that let's us know that Pinarello did much more than sketch something on a napkin and mail it to China. In reality, I doubt many brands are much more than that.


Somehow, I doubt Pinarello, Cervelo, etc etc are simply saying "this is what I want it to look like, make it, and give it these characteristics."

I recall reading somewhere (I wish I could remember where) that the moulds for most of these frames are made at the company itself, where they do engineering and stress testing, road testing, etc, then ship the complete mould and instructions off to Asia for mass production. I somehow doubt they are leaving it up to someone to design and then never touch it until there is a complete frame sitting in front of them. It doesn't jive with the way the industry works.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> Actually, you've just illustrated the problem. If you have a Rolex looking thing that came from China, it is easy to say "but it isn't a real Rolex, because Rolex's plant is in Switzerland." Simple. (And the result of some really smart thinking by the Swiss on what should be considered "Swiss made".)
> 
> But if Rolexes were made in an "undisclosed location in China", then the apparent difference between the two becomes really small. Especially if you keep getting the feeling that Rolex is designing the features and look of the watch, but leaving the engineering horology to China.
> 
> ...


yeah good points.

Some people just think of Asia as Asia and nothing more. The fact is some of these places in Asia (Taiwan, I don't know about China) really know what they are doing and off course others just strive to make something look like it should look at best. And like you're getting at it's practiallly CIA clasified information where so and so has their bikes made and if they are any good or just another cookie cutter operation.


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## j__h (Jun 16, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Here in America, it seems most people don't care about intellectual property, ethics,


Sorry to go off topics, 

But I don't think it's as simple as saying 'most people' even though I do tend to agree with you a bit. Not in reference towards bicycle frames per say, but it's interesting to see how intellectual property rights, copy rights, and patents are currently being used to stifle innovation in a lot of area. Things that would have been in the public domain years ago are now locked up for a generation and things that should never have been able to be patented in the first place are now locked away so innovations can't be made. There's a cool documentary about specifically copy rights here http://ripremix.com/

Back on topic, yeah, it's not a Pinarello unless it's made by Pinerello and gone through their distribution chain. Claiming your bike is the same is just inherently wrong. It may be just as good, but it's not a Pinerello.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

j__h said:


> Sorry to go off topics,
> 
> But I don't think it's as simple as saying 'most people' even though I do tend to agree with you a bit. Not in reference towards bicycle frames per say, but it's interesting to see how intellectual property rights, copy rights, and patents are currently being used to stifle innovation in a lot of area. Things that would have been in the public domain years ago are now locked up for a generation and things that should never have been able to be patented in the first place are now locked away so innovations can't be made. There's a cool documentary about specifically copy rights here http://ripremix.com/


Good point in that, and I should take a look at that documentary. 

I was meaning more the fact that nobody really cares that the style design is ripped off of a company almost curve for curve, as long as it's cheap. I don't really see a copy as an innovation on an original design.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

here's what they look like out of the box
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F82G_NGBEtU

here's what they look like assembled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I_gz6Qwmws

17.6lbs, call it chinarello.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Well, it depends if they can play nicely when the other shoe drops.
> 
> Many of them have shown extreme testiness when questioned.
> 
> ...


I think your post is loaded with assumptions, and probably the same assumptions that fuel the confusion of consumers.

The bicycle industry has gone through MASSIVE change in the last 20 years. To assume that that every firm goes through the same design/prototype/production operation as every other is naive. Even reading the history of Trek's development of 2500, 5000 and 5200 shows three completely different approaches.

While some companies may do their tool and die production on site, almost none would or should. Die makers are specialists that don't need to know about bicycles. 

You seem like a reasonably thoughtful guy, so if you can jump to all these conclusions about what is or isn't being done, without any grounds for your beliefs, imagine all the things average consumers are assuming.


I'm certain that I could approach agents in Asia with anything from a clay model and lay up schedule to a drawing on a napkin and get directed to a frame company that could finish the design. That's the reality of having 99% off all bicycle production expertise in just a few Asian factories. And it is the reason that the cost of entry into the bike industry is only money. That's why a sailboard maker is currently selling BMW designed bike frames.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> I think your post is loaded with assumptions, and probably the same assumptions that fuel the confusion of consumers.
> 
> The bicycle industry has gone through MASSIVE change in the last 20 years. To assume that that every firm goes through the same design/prototype/production operation as every other is naive. Even reading the history of Trek's development of 2500, 5000 and 5200 shows three completely different approaches.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you think that everything is done overseas and most bike companies are 3 people with a telephone.

I'm sure you COULD take a clay model and have it finished into a frame, but who's going to be doing the engineering? That's the point I'm making related to where these bikes are really "coming from" in a sense. They are designed and engineered by their respective companies. No company is going to put their reputation on the line and say "take this and make it vertically compliant but laterally stiff, enough to smooth road buzz but don't let it flex under power." 

And just as you said it, "production expertise" does not equal design expertise. I do not assume, nor expect each firm to engineer their bikes the same way, but I'll wager that they damn sure do it themselves and send specs to factories in Asia for "production expertise."

This isn't anything more than common sense on how a business works. You simply don't put your reputation for quality product out of the hands of your own engineers. Hell, Giant even goes so far as to weave their own carbon cloth to their specs. You think that's just for fun? Nah, it's to control the quality of their product and maintain their image as a company.


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## j__h (Jun 16, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> I don't really see a copy as an innovation on an original design.


Yup, agree 100% unless there some new manufacturing process or material, but then it wouldn't really be a copy to begin with.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> Hell, Giant even goes so far as to weave their own carbon cloth to their specs. You think that's just for fun? Nah, it's to control the quality of their product and maintain their image as a company.


As does TIME. That's one of the primary reasons I picked them up as one of my lines.


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## red elvis (Sep 9, 2010)

fake boobies are awesome.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> I'm glad you think that everything is done overseas and most bike companies are 3 people with a telephone.
> 
> I'm sure you COULD take a clay model and have it finished into a frame, but who's going to be doing the engineering? That's the point I'm making related to where these bikes are really "coming from" in a sense. They are designed and engineered by their respective companies. No company is going to put their reputation on the line and say "take this and make it vertically compliant but laterally stiff, enough to smooth road buzz but don't let it flex under power."
> 
> ...


And are you saying that there is no design expertise for bike building in Asia? Of course not. Even if there wasn't a Giant, Asian composite companies have been learning from the designs they build from others. 

When you see Focus, Blu or any of these other new brands pop out of ground, do you assume that the Asian production company had no input into the design? That the 100+ brands of composite bikes are coming from a huge population of composite bicycle engineers from a _shrinking_ US bike production base?

Any Asian bike maker can design and produce a competant and stylish bicycle frame. It takes a real specialist to come up with something that rides amazing at less than 800 grams and doesn't break easily. And that is still a rarity, despite all these genius bike designers sitting in front of computers all over the Western world. Why? Because it isn't actually happening.


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## providince (May 20, 2010)

I see some people saying making replicas are illegal. Not sure what law they are basing that on. If they are making pinarello replicas and seliing them as the same thing maybe but making a PERFECT/EXACT replica is not illegal. I play in the realm of exotic cars and this is common place. Here is a great example. There are many more. They have the same paint jobs, emblems, markings. I have even seen some go so far as to add the Shelby plate on the car.
http://www.factoryfive.com/


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

i agree that supporting the 'chinarello' trend is a bad thing and imo all discussion of where/how to buy counterfeit (read illegal) bikes should be moderated out of the china frames thread(s) - it takes the thread way too far off topic


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

All this reminds me of a review that Car and Driver did on a Ford, back in the Seventies. At the time, Mercedes-Benz was considered the ultimate in quality and prestige. American car companies were falling over themselves trying to copy them. Ever the cheeky dudes, Car and Driver photographed one of those ersatz Ford-Mercedes in front of a yellow-roofed Der Wienerschnitzel.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> And are you saying that there is no design expertise for bike building in Asia? Of course not. Even if there wasn't a Giant, Asian composite companies have been learning from the designs they build from others.
> 
> When you see Focus, Blu or any of these other new brands pop out of ground, do you assume that the Asian production company had no input into the design? That the 100+ brands of composite bikes are coming from a huge population of composite bicycle engineers from a _shrinking_ US bike production base?
> 
> Any Asian bike maker can design and produce a competant and stylish bicycle frame. It takes a real specialist to come up with something that rides amazing at less than 800 grams and doesn't break easily. And that is still a rarity, despite all these genius bike designers sitting in front of computers all over the Western world. Why? Because it isn't actually happening.


Why are all these companies popping up? Because there is a LOT of common knowledge base on how to build bike frames out there. It's simple to re-use an old mould and ask the workers to lay it up. It's also not uncommon for engineers to jump from one company to another, taking their expertise in materials and design with them. It's not terribly difficult to build a bike these days, be it steel, aluminum or carbon, but it IS difficult to build a quality bike. It's even tougher to build a quality bike that you had no part in designing, which is an asinine way to even think about running a company. Somehow I have a suspicion that the owners of these companies have put that all together already.

And as for the overall picture, you're missing the point of the conversation, as you frequently do. You're correct in one aspect: production expertise lies in the far east. Engineering? Not so much. Design is done in house, not at the factory, as you believe in your scenario. Perhaps you can explain why bike companies employ engineers if your scenario is true (which it isn't.)

It actually takes a talented and special engineer to build a bike frame under 1000 grams that is stiff, safe and compliant enough to be called a success. Why is it a rarity that there are sub 800g frames out there? Materials limitations is a pretty big roadblock in that road, and so is cost. What good is developing a frame that one tenth of one percent of the market could afford?

Sorry kid, your thinking is as backwards as your fears about spinal fracture because of a tool in your jersey pocket.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

You'd be real surprised how the frame acquisition process works.

Many of the large Asian manufacturers will rig up a few prototype frames and try to get the foreign buyer to buy the frame. If the foreign buyer likes the frame they will buy it and the frame is then closed for exclusive use by the foreign manufacturer. These days the brand doesn't have to do a lot of the carbon weaving or anything. They may make some engineering suggestions... but those variables are like choosing the carpet for a house. They are easily changed to fit the customer's needs. Today, "engineering" may mean "chose the type of carbon weave or wrapping pattern.... from a limited set of choices. 

I am borrowing my builder's bike until my new one arrives and it is an aluminum aero bike. The mold was bought up and now it is a Cervelo S1. In my LBS there are two CF Look frames for the next iteration of the 586. They are identical to what will be sold in the US... but they still have the manufacturer's number on the ST. The molds were purchased and closed by Look, but my LBS was able to buy up the frames before the mold closed. 

I know a "huckster"... well... I think he's a jerk anyway... skulks around here is you write the name of his company.... who buys a bunch of lonely open molds or cheap OEM factory samples.... and built a new brand from the bottom up by throwing a logo on them and writing advertising literature about how much technology and engineering his company put into his components. He then sponsored some riders and gave some stuff away for free... built a brand. 

When we discuss this guy around here we roll our eyes and say, "some people want to be huckstered to..." I think that could be said about a lot of the bikes we buy. 

This IS a Pinarello. It was probably manufactured and bought for peanuts on what the same frame with logos goes for.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

providince said:


> I see some people saying making replicas are illegal. Not sure what law they are basing that on. If they are making pinarello replicas and seliing them as the same thing maybe but making a PERFECT/EXACT replica is not illegal. I play in the realm of exotic cars and this is common place. Here is a great example. There are many more. They have the same paint jobs, emblems, markings. I have even seen some go so far as to add the Shelby plate on the car.
> http://www.factoryfive.com/


Writing "Pinarello" on a frame and pretending it is a Pinarello is lame.

Buying a kit car and pretending it's the actual vehicle it pretends to be is lame.

Counterfeit:


> adj.
> 1. Made in imitation of what is genuine with the intent to defraud: a counterfeit dollar bill.
> 2. Simulated; feigned: a counterfeit illness.


Tell me those bikes are not selling based upon the photos showing "Pinarello" frames? Tell me that's not the appeal?


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Why are all these companies popping up? Because there is a LOT of common knowledge base on how to build bike frames out there. It's simple to re-use an old mould and ask the workers to lay it up. It's also not uncommon for engineers to jump from one company to another, taking their expertise in materials and design with them. It's not terribly difficult to build a bike these days, be it steel, aluminum or carbon, but it IS difficult to build a quality bike. It's even tougher to build a quality bike that you had no part in designing, which is an asinine way to even think about running a company. Somehow I have a suspicion that the owners of these companies have put that all together already.
> 
> And as for the overall picture, you're missing the point of the conversation, as you frequently do. You're correct in one aspect: production expertise lies in the far east. Engineering? Not so much. Design is done in house, not at the factory, as you believe in your scenario. Perhaps you can explain why bike companies employ engineers if your scenario is true (which it isn't.)
> 
> ...


I can't believe you wrote all that about the requirement for experienced and competent engineers, then concluded that there is a greater density of them in countries that don't build bicycles any more.

I'm certain every bicycle company has an "engineer" of some variety on staff who designs and/or approves the CAD models for the newest bike shape. That doesn't mean the guy knows exactly how to build said bike - just that he knows that the rules that govern composite bike production are able to be followed with his design.


The funniest part of all of this is how few engineers were involved with all the original all carbon fiber bicycles that lead us the current situation.



The FACT here is that you and I have not witnessed the design process of any of the brands we are discussing. I have my assumptions based on what I've encountered as I deal more with my foray into the industry. And you have yours, and some weak off topic attacks.


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## Guymk (Mar 27, 2009)

Someone mentioned earlier of buying one of these frames and then just cutting it up to see what the insides look like. If I ever crash my frame and it breaks (which i hope never happens) I promise that I will take a saw to it and take lots of pictures and post them up. 

Now all you guys are going to hope that i crash....


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

This debate about OEM or not, specifically about dertain Pinarello models, could pretty easily be figured out with two crashed frames and saw.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Dajianshan said:


> You'd be real surprised how the frame acquisition process works.
> 
> Many of the large Asian manufacturers will rig up a few prototype frames and try to get the foreign buyer to buy the frame. If the foreign buyer likes the frame they will buy it and the frame is then closed for exclusive use by the foreign manufacturer. These days the brand doesn't have to do a lot of the carbon weaving or anything. They may make some engineering suggestions... but those variables are like choosing the carpet for a house. They are easily changed to fit the customer's needs. Today, "engineering" may mean "chose the type of carbon weave or wrapping pattern.... from a limited set of choices.
> 
> ...


Interesting. My followup question then is this: for companies who have farmed out their production to Asia more recently (and who used to produce frames in their home country), how is it that they are not doing their own engineering? Trek used to produce the majority of their carbon frames in the US, and relocated their lower end offerings to Asia. You're telling me that at that point, they just picked a chinese frame and that was done? Doesn't add up too well.

I'm quite curious to know then why, if your purported scenario is true and Pinarello simply bought their frame (and that frame is "locked out" of production) then is it not illegal to make copies of said frame?


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

There have been what, 4....or is it 5 of these pinarello clones posted on this board? Do you guys think Pinarello can't afford to defend themselves if they feel the threat you are speaking of is real? 4 or 5 clones isn't much of a threat. One or two guys saying these may be OEM doesn't mean there is some mass hysteria over it either. The kit car explanation given earlier makes a lot of sense to me. 

I can tell you that my Dengfu fm027 rides significantly better than my Litespeed. My local shops have all raved about it as well. I can afford to buy any bike I care to, but I built a campy chorus 11 Chinese frame up because I choose to build high end value. I chose the frame because I have never heard of one of these frames failing. Through 7 or 8 thousand chinese bike frame posts on this forum...not one frame failure. Are they perfect? Nope, but they are pretty damn good. I couldn't be happier with mine. 

Though I choose to design the paint scheme myself and enjoy applying it myself....some people would rather not. If they choose to have it painted to look like a Pinarello...I couldn't care less. Perhaps I would care if Pinarello wasn't putting a made in Italy sticker on frames actually made in Asia...but even then I would likely consider the copies in the same way as Ford Cobra kit cars, GT-40 clones etc. The best form of flattery and all that...

I'm glad this thread was created. It will take the two or three over enthused posters out of the China frame thread and creates a proper place for discussion.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

I cut my carbons steerer to fit, it's all carbon.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Interesting. My followup question then is this: for companies who have farmed out their production to Asia more recently (and who used to produce frames in their home country), how is it that they are not doing their own engineering? Trek used to produce the majority of their carbon frames in the US, and relocated their lower end offerings to Asia. You're telling me that at that point, they just picked a chinese frame and that was done? Doesn't add up too well.
> 
> I'm quite curious to know then why, if your purported scenario is true and Pinarello simply bought their frame (and that frame is "locked out" of production) then is it not illegal to make copies of said frame?


Clearly, what he said isn't necessarily universal. It doesn't mean it isn't true of Pacific Cycle or Focus.

Trek owns their Asian production facilities, BTW.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Guymk said:


> Someone mentioned earlier of buying one of these frames and then just cutting it up to see what the insides look like. If I ever crash my frame and it breaks (which i hope never happens) I promise that I will take a saw to it and take lots of pictures and post them up.
> 
> Now all you guys are going to hope that i crash....


Nah, would never hope that a fellow rider crashed (although there are a few on this forum I would chuckle at.)

But if the time comes, maybe we'll be lucky enough to find a shattered Pinarello as well.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Trek is produced by the same company as Cervelo. It is NOT Trek. I ride with the president of the company that manufacturers both Trek and Cervelo.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> I can't believe you wrote all that about the requirement for experienced and competent engineers, then concluded that there is a greater density of them in countries that don't build bicycles any more.
> 
> I'm certain every bicycle company has an "engineer" of some variety on staff who designs and/or approves the CAD models for the newest bike shape. That doesn't mean the guy knows exactly how to build said bike - just that he knows that the rules that govern composite bike production are able to be followed with his design.
> 
> ...


The FACT is that you have none. You have no proof that these clones are actual OEM bikes, so again, you're as wrong as you are about breaking your back on a multi tool.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Dajianshan said:


> Trek is produced by the same company as Cervelo. It is NOT Trek. I ride with the president of the company that manufacturers both Trek and Cervelo.


I never said it is. I said it USED to be.

Basically, they simply took the specs provided to them and made it then.


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> The FACT is that you have none. You have no proof that these clones are actual OEM bikes.


And you do have proof to the contrary. Is that what we are to believe?


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

If frames are confusing, you should look into how few companies manufacture alloy wheels. My DT Swiss rims are a very common design with a lot of different names.


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## louise (May 24, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> I'm quite curious to know then why, *if your purported scenario is true* and Pinarello simply bought their frame (and that frame is "locked out" of production) then is it not illegal to make copies of said frame?



IF??

Of course it's true.

How many of the loudest voices around here have ever done business overseas, I wonder.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> Perhaps I would care if Pinarello wasn't putting a made in Italy sticker on frames actually made in Asia...but even then I would likely consider the copies in the same way as Ford Cobra kit cars, GT-40 clones etc. The best form of flattery and all that...


Legally, as long as some percentage (I can't recall how much) of the workmanship is performed in that country, it can be labeled as such.

The best form of flattery is not counterfeiting. Same goes for chinese jerseys, bibs, etc. At least THOSE get pulled from many of the sites they are advertised on.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> And you do have proof to the contrary. Is that what we are to believe?


My proof comes in the inconsistency between your precious chinese knockoff and a true Pinarello.

Prove to me that your "Pinarello" really is...


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Lots of engineering is done in Asia. Lots of company engineers are there for QC and process control. Rest assured... a lot of the product testing is done right. I know a few test riders for the big companies and they are pros, former pros, or engineers who ride. PMG (as I mentioned before) is headed by a former pro with grand tour experience. ProLite is also run by a guy who knows what he is doing. Taiwanese engineers are also not inferior. 

A locked frame is illegal to sell after it is closed, but before it closes anyone can buy.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

I bought the clone because of great reviews and the affordability. And also for the bling factor of the mould. Every people who see my Made in Canada bike is impressed with the finish. They enjoy the story of me buying the frame direct from factory, the story behind each component I bought from eBay, craigslist or kijiji. And 90% of them actually have not seen what carbon bicycle look like, mine is rare where I live.

But at the end of the day, it is me riding my bicycle and will enjoy it.


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> My proof comes in the inconsistency between your precious chinese knockoff and a true Pinarello.
> 
> Prove to me that your "Pinarello" really is...


I don't own a Pinarello, nor a frame painted to look like one. As I said earlier, I own a Dengfu FM-027 which is not a knockoff of anything. But, you seem to yell at the top of your lungs that people discussing an issue with you have no proof that what they say is correct. You've said it multiple times in this one thread....so...rather than be hypocritical....lets see your proof that they are wrong. You can't call for their proof and then refuse to give your own.

Point being none of us really know. You don't. I don't. Nobody does. The thing is though, I admit when I don't know. You just attack everyone around you in an attempt to bully them into believing that you magically know what's going on behind closed doors in Asia. You don't know...and if you had ever done business over there...you would speak with a lot less absolutes about it.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

vladvm said:


> here's what they look like out of the box
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F82G_NGBEtU
> 
> here's what they look like assembled.
> ...



Some of the comments are interesting

_"I sanded the bottom of crown race to fit the contour of the fork to get﻿ rid of gap. it sits flush"

"Bought on eBay maniac bike. No problem with headset, I sanded it also to﻿ clean some resin, typical of carbon frame/fork. I needed to modify the cable guide under the bottom bracket with candle to heat it up and a little bending of the plastic."_

Sorry but none of those issues are "typical" of carbon frames...

I call that a lack of attention to detail...


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

Dave Hickey said:


> Some of the comments are interesting
> 
> _"I sanded the bottom of crown race to fit the contour of the fork to get﻿ rid of gap. it sits flush"
> 
> ...


The frame/fork/seatpost/handlebar/headset/bottle cage/shipping was $400. I was fine with sanding myself.


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

vladvm said:


> The frame/fork/seatpost/handlebar/headset/bottle cage/shipping was $400. I was fine with sanding myself.


if you know for a fact (since you had to sand things to make them fit) that the manufacturer rushed the construction and skipped the little steps to make things right, then why would you trust the to have made the important parts of the frame properly? 

China sends us tons of safe things, then heck all of a sudden a giant batch of poisoned pet food, or disease laden drywall.... 

do you really trust someone to give you a good product rather than save $2 a frame to cut some corners, when they have zero accountability for any mistakes?


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

roscoe said:


> if you know for a fact (since you had to sand things to make them fit) that the manufacturer rushed the construction and skipped the little steps to make things right, then why would you trust the to have made the important parts of the frame properly?
> 
> China sends us tons of safe things, then heck all of a sudden a giant batch of poisoned pet food, or disease laden drywall....
> 
> do you really trust someone to give you a good product rather than save $2 a frame to cut some corners, when they have zero accountability for any mistakes?


See my previous post.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Let me get this straight, PlatyPius, a shop owner, jumps into the China frame thread and attacks and insults anyone who doesn't agree with everything he says, so he starts his own thread pushing his point of view and whining about about "not being welcome." A few questions:

1) Is he dense enough to really think people who like Chinese frames would enjoy him attacking and insulting them?

2) It seems a bit hypocritical to start a thread attacking people who you are mad at because they weren't nice to you. It also seems pretty childish.

3) Is it really good business sense to go on a forum used by your customers and act like a jerk to anyone not agreeing with you?

And now my own comment about the topic. I think that companies using the same designs or carbon layouts are just doing what everyone else in this industry does. Remember when the first compact frames came out and then all kinds of brands came out with them? Aero tubes on road bikes? Rear wheel cutouts? I could go on and on, but the bike industry is a copycat industry and if someone copies another frame or part of one I see no issue as long as they do not claim it is that particular brand name bike.

(P.S.- I do not own a Chinarello, but do own a custom frame from China that I got due to a wheelbuilder putting me in touch with the carbon people he uses.)


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

there are just too many uneducated cyclists who think a carbon bike is a carbon bike

they don't understand how you could have two bikes with identical geometry, and looks, and have one be a great bike and the other a death trap 

carbon is not all the same, and how the sheets are oriented and what type of carbon they're made of matter. 

as long as people don't understand or care that there are vastly different carbon available people will buy cheap, no-name junk and think they've got the same product as someone who buys an actual quality bike 

maybe the first few batches of no name china stuff have been great products, but how on earth do you trust these criminals to deliver a safe product? 

these people will deliver dangerous products to you in an effort to earn a couple extra bucks.. it will happen, it's only a matter of time


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Some of the comments are interesting
> 
> _"I sanded the bottom of crown race to fit the contour of the fork to get﻿ rid of gap. it sits flush"
> 
> ...


But Dave, ColoRoadie INSISTS that all the GOOD mechanics in Colorado say that even $5K frames need this kind of handiwork so they go together well.

He's gotta be right, since he heard it 3rd hand, right?


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> But Dave, ColoRoadie INSISTS that all the GOOD mechanics in Colorado say that even $5K frames need this kind of handiwork so they go together well.
> 
> He's gotta be right, since he heard it 3rd hand, right?


of course! 

and they only skipped out on the details on the minor stuff, all of the important stuff was done with much more care......


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Perico said:


> Let me get this straight, PlatyPius, a shop owner, jumps into the China frame thread and attacks and insults anyone who doesn't agree with everything he says, so he starts his own thread pushing his point of view and whining about about "not being welcome."


Counterfeit = illegal is not a "point of view" - it's a fact. That is ALL I was addressing in that thread. Fake, counterfeit Pinarellos. Why all of these people who don't own the fake Pinarello started piling on with the attacks baffles me. I didn't say "All Chinese carbon bikes are crap and you're a moron if you ride one!" That would be silly, since many/most of the bikes sold today are from China. I ONLY mentioned the counterfeit Chinarellos.

What "everything he says"? Counterfeit = bad is what I said. I don't remember insulting anyone. If you buy a counterfeit product, you're a criminal and a tool. Sorry, those are facts.



Perico said:


> A few questions:
> 
> 1) Is he dense enough to really think people who like Chinese frames would enjoy him attacking and insulting them?


I don't care. The people I was addressing are criminals and tools. What they "like" is irrelevant.



Perico said:


> 2) It seems a bit hypocritical to start a thread attacking people who you are mad at because they weren't nice to you. It also seems pretty childish.


Did you read my first post? I started the thread to counter the "z0mg! It's an OEM Pinarello frame that was smuggled out the back door!!!11one" crap that was being spewed.



Perico said:


> 3) Is it really good business sense to go on a forum used by your customers and act like a jerk to anyone not agreeing with you?


Unlike you and the people who attacked me (rather than what I was saying), my customers actually know me. They know I'm opinionated, but they also know that I am infinitely fair (which is what this whole debate is about....fairness, ethics, etc.), and that I'll do most anything to help my customers/friends out.



Perico said:


> And now my own comment about the topic. I think that companies using the same designs or carbon layouts are just doing what everyone else in this industry does. Remember when the first compact frames came out and then all kinds of brands came out with them? Aero tubes on road bikes? Rear wheel cutouts? I could go on and on, but the bike industry is a copycat industry and if someone copies another frame or part of one I see no issue as long as they do not claim it is that particular brand name bike.
> 
> (P.S.- I do not own a Chinarello, but do own a custom frame from China that I got due to a wheelbuilder putting me in touch with the carbon people he uses.)


If I were to write a book (don't laugh, it has already happened), would it be okay for someone else to copy it and sell it cheaper? Isn't that what GreatKeen is doing? They're copying every aspect of a Pinarello - the things that make it immediately identifiable - and selling it as their own. They aren't copying parts or some....they're copying the bike curve for curve and logo for logo. It isn't like I'm all up in arms because their bike has two wheels and a crank just like a Pinarello... they're copying the whole damn thing. How can a thinking person think that is, in any way, justifiable?


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## Sharknose (Aug 9, 2010)

LandShark'n said:


> It would be interesting if someone on this forum could order a few samples of these frames and take a Sawzall to them, bisecting them from head tube to bottom bracket just to see what the insides look like.


I remember seeing a photo several years ago showing just that. One of the big bike companies (Trek? Kestrel?) bought some made in China carbon frames, sawed them open to discover Chinese newspapers inside the tubes. Anyone else remember seeing this?

Edit: Found it! Thanks Google. See it at http://bicycledesign.net/2006/05/what’s-in-your-fork/


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## LandShark'n (Jan 10, 2011)

Sharknose said:


> I remember seeing a photo several years ago showing just that. One of the big bike companies (Trek? Kestrel?) bought some made in China carbon frames, sawed them open to discover Chinese newspapers inside the tubes. Anyone else remember seeing this?


I'm pretty sure that adding the newspaper was done to help get the resultant bike to UCI minimum weight requirements. </sarcasm>


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

So.... is it normal for a carbon bar/stem combo to crack upon installation? How's that shipping time to China and back? Probably takes longer than the one day it would take for my store to get ya a new one (and I would then deal with the warranty myself)

(Reference Chinese bike thread #4.0 if you're confused)


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Sharknose said:


> I remember seeing a photo several years ago showing just that. One of the big bike companies (Trek? Kestrel?) bought some made in China carbon frames, sawed them open to discover Chinese newspapers inside the tubes. Anyone else remember seeing this?



It was Trek.....and they did more than China frames...They cut up a LOOK too....The LOOK wasn't smooth inside... I'm not sure what it proved other than Treks tubes are smooth inside and out and others were only finished on the outside.. Trek obviously got some good PR out of it. I do remember the newspaper inside one of the frames


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

robdamanii said:


> I never said it is. I said it USED to be.
> 
> Basically, they simply took the specs provided to them and made it then.



FWIW I happen to be good friends with a couple of Trek engineers and more than a couple of other Trek employees. Many of them spend quite a bit of time in the Asian facility overseeing production and quality control. This is an important difference between a REAL name brand and a knockoff even if they are manufactured in the same facility and VIRTUALLY identical.


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

And yet we hear and see pictures of failed Trek frames all the time. Haven't seen a single one of the frames popular in here fail though. Plenty of people racing them....where are the failures? None. 

So let's hear some more about this shoddy quality control. It's good fiction from guys who have never had their hands on one of these frames.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ColoRoadie said:


> And yet we hear and see pictures of failed Trek frames all the time. Haven't seen a single one of the frames popular in here fail though. Plenty of people racing them....where are the failures? None.
> 
> So let's hear some more about this shoddy quality control. It's good fiction from guys who have never had their hands on one of these frames.


Why do you keep saying "guys who have never had their hands on one of these frames" and such?

How many times do I have to post that I owned one. It was the biggest piece of @#$% I've ever owned. It was 'almost a copy' of a Fuji CCR, but not quite. It had the worst ride of any carbon bike I've ever owned/ridden; and I've ridden a lot of carbon bikes.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> And yet we hear and see pictures of failed Trek frames all the time. Haven't seen a single one of the frames popular in here fail though. Plenty of people racing them....where are the failures? None.
> 
> So let's hear some more about this shoddy quality control. It's good fiction from guys who have never had their hands on one of these frames.


Again, since you don't listen:

If there are a million Trek frames out there, with a failure rate of (let's say) 3%, then that's 30,000 failed frames.

If there are only 100,000 of these "unbranded chinese frames" out there, with the same failure rate, that's 3,000 failed frames. 

Do you understand that that's a 10 fold increase in the NUMBER of failed frames, mainly because of the huge number of frames period?

This is a simple concept, if you bother to attempt to understand anything posted here before shooting your mouth off.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Touch0Gray said:


> FWIW I happen to be good friends with a couple of Trek engineers and more than a couple of other Trek employees. Many of them spend quite a bit of time in the Asian facility overseeing production and quality control. This is an important difference between a REAL name brand and a knockoff even if they are manufactured in the same facility and VIRTUALLY identical.


Indeed. QC is something that seems to be sorely lacking in the cheaper frames.

It IS damn good to know that someone is over there checking things out and ensuring things are done right.


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

ColoRoadie said:


> And yet we hear and see pictures of failed Trek frames all the time. Haven't seen a single one of the frames popular in here fail though. Plenty of people racing them....where are the failures? None.
> 
> So let's hear some more about this shoddy quality control. It's good fiction from guys who have never had their hands on one of these frames.


in addition to the 8 billion treks vs 20,000 counterfeits 

how many counterfeits have failed, and had the owner NOT post about it because he didn't want 27 guys yelling "TOLD YOU SO!!" on the forums 

I doubt many people would be really excited to tell us about how their counterfeit frames failed because sharing that story would make them look stupid.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

ColoRoadie said:


> And yet we hear and see pictures of failed Trek frames all the time. Haven't seen a single one of the frames popular in here fail though. Plenty of people racing them....where are the failures? None.
> 
> So let's hear some more about this shoddy quality control. It's good fiction from guys who have never had their hands on one of these frames.


Pictures......you've seen pictures.......have you ever had a Trek frame fail under you...or physically seen one? The ones I have seen were definitely NOT from JRA...and you are ASSUMING that they were legitimate Trek frames...because I have seen knock offs of Trek frames too. 

Fact is I don't give a rat's a$$ what you ride....or whose name is on it. As far as i am concerned anyone that buys a frame solely because of the name is a total posseur anyhow, no matter how much they ride, or how fast they are or how many races they win. There are lots of ways to be superficial.....


----------



## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Again, since you don't listen:
> 
> If there are a million Trek frames out there, with a failure rate of (let's say) 3%, then that's 30,000 failed frames.
> 
> ...


I understand just fine. I understand that once again you are dodging the question. Where are the failures? You and a couple others have been ranting for months about this faulty Chinese quality. Lots of anecdotes. Lots of claims, but no real, actual, evidence. You and yours call for proof from others that you will not provide for your own arguments. Larry claims to have all sorts of carbon frame experience. But, how much riding knowledge does a 300lb guy really have? Compared to the racers in here who post photos of their races, photos of their stable of bikes and real ride reports of all of them....we are supposed to believe that Larry and his shop smaller than my garage is more of an expert?

Nah. I'm not buying it. You speak of poor engineering, poor layups, poor quality control and yet there are so many of us in here that own other very nice bikes...and leave them in the garage to ride the Chinese carbon. Despite your claims of poor quality...there are NO failures. Odd how that is eh?


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

At this point we are all arguing over our opinions on things. Why don't we all chip in and buy one and cut it open and start talking about facts...


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

roscoe said:


> in addition to the 8 billion treks vs 20,000 counterfeits
> 
> how many counterfeits have failed, and had the owner NOT post about it because he didn't want 27 guys yelling "TOLD YOU SO!!" on the forums
> 
> I doubt many people would be really excited to tell us about how their counterfeit frames failed because sharing that story would make them look stupid.


This is really your argument? That people whose frames have failed are keeping silent to avoid you saying "I told you so"......

Seriously.....

ROFL....god that really is a desperate theory. 

I remember guys like you. Used to make the same type of claims about Japanese cars versus American. That worked out well....


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ColoRoadie said:


> I understand just fine. I understand that once again you are dodging the question. Where are the failures? You and a couple others have been ranting for months about this faulty Chinese quality. Lots of anecdotes. Lots of claims, but no real, actual, evidence. You and yours call for proof from others that you will not provide for your own arguments. Larry claims to have all sorts of carbon frame experience. But, how much riding knowledge does a 300lb guy really have? Compared to the racers in here who post photos of their races, photos of their stable of bikes and real ride reports of all of them....we are supposed to believe that Larry and his shop smaller than my garage is more of an expert?
> 
> Nah. I'm not buying it. You speak of poor engineering, poor layups, poor quality control and yet there are so many of us in here that own other very nice bikes...and leave them in the garage to ride the Chinese carbon. Despite your claims of poor quality...there are NO failures. Odd how that is eh?


Poor construction and quality control does not automatically equal higher failure rate.


I think this is a rather strange direction this thread has taken. A fake Dogman is still a fake - whether it is a perfect fake or a shoddy one. Both should be offensive to any ethically minded person.

Why? Because if you lost a paycheck because someone else claimed to be doing your work, you'd be pissed. So not doing the same is the minimum that makes a society function.


I submit that brandless Chinese frames could be quite nice. And they don't need to look like or be like a Pinarello to do so. People who buy stolen goods OR ideas aren't just in poor taste, they are damaging their own society for the sake of a dollar.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> I understand just fine. I understand that once again you are dodging the question. Where are the failures? You and a couple others have been ranting for months about this faulty Chinese quality. Lots of anecdotes. Lots of claims, but no real, actual, evidence. You and yours call for proof from others that you will not provide for your own arguments. Larry claims to have all sorts of carbon frame experience. But, how much riding knowledge does a 300lb guy really have? Compared to the racers in here who post photos of their races, photos of their stable of bikes and real ride reports of all of them....we are supposed to believe that Larry and his shop smaller than my garage is more of an expert?
> 
> Nah. I'm not buying it. You speak of poor engineering, poor layups, poor quality control and yet there are so many of us in here that own other very nice bikes...and leave them in the garage to ride the Chinese carbon. Despite your claims of poor quality...there are NO failures. Odd how that is eh?


The burden of proof lies upon those who make extraordinary claims. You have done so, claiming these are the same quality as expensive name brand frames (yet you readily admit to sanding, dremeling and otherwise modifying the frame and parts to fit) so stop telling me you get it and PROVE IT.

You can't so you keep claiming "but they haven't failed but name brand frames have." No kidding, a lot of them have also been around longer than most of these chinese sellers have been alive.

So again, stop flapping your gums, understand that these are the new kids on the block who need proving, and PROVE IT.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ColoRoadie said:


> Larry claims to have all sorts of carbon frame experience. But, how much riding knowledge does a 300lb guy really have? Compared to the racers in here who post photos of their races, photos of their stable of bikes and real ride reports of all of them....we are supposed to believe that Larry and his shop smaller than my garage is more of an expert?


You're right. Because I'm cursed with being a fat ass, I've never actually ridden a bike in my life. I haven't owned a Cinelli Aliante, a Masi 3VC, a Scott CR1 Pro, a fake Fuji CCR, a handful of Raleighs, a couple of Bianchis, and untold others. I also don't have a 1999 Rocky Mountain Vertex with over 18,000 miles on it. I surely don't have or have had bikes with Campy Record, Campy Centaur, Shimano Dura Ace, Shimano Ultegra, SRAM Rival, or SRAM Red components. I wasn't out there every week riding with the local bike club, either. All of those rides were hallucinations.

Your garage is over 2000 sq ft? That's a big garage.

You have a serious problem with weight, don't you? Just because I weigh a lot doesn't mean I don't ride. It doesn't mean that I ride Workman trikes, either. 

No experience with bikes? I worked at The Hub in Aspen; do you think I built Pacifics there?

You seriously need to chill on the weight thing, dude.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> You're right. Because I'm cursed with being a fat ass, I've never actually ridden a bike in my life. I haven't owned a Cinelli Aliante, a Masi 3VC, a Scott CR1 Pro, a fake Fuji CCR, a handful of Raleighs, a couple of Bianchis, and untold others. I also don't have a 1999 Rocky Mountain Vertex with over 18,000 miles on it. I surely don't have or have had bikes with Campy Record, Campy Centaur, Shimano Dura Ace, Shimano Ultegra, SRAM Rival, or SRAM Red components. I wasn't out there every week riding with the local bike club, either. All of those rides were hallucinations.
> 
> Your garage is over 2000 sq ft? That's a big garage.
> 
> ...


Meh, when you've got no ground to stand on, and simply regurgitate the same old garbage about "how great they are, they never fail and the QC is fine" (even though you need power tools to put the frame together?) why not go after weight? Pretty much all he's got left, no?


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## zender (Jun 20, 2009)

I didn't post on this any more in the other thread because it was getting way off track already, but of the Chinese frames posted in there, only a small minority are Pinarello copies w/ Pinarello graphics. It's not like every single person ordering from China is getting a forgery. That doesn't make them OEM, of course, but not everyone is falling over themselves to ride a Chinarello. 

As to QC from mainland China. I can't speak for >10 years ago, but over the last decade I've been involved on a professional level with distribution of parts (tech related, not bikes) that are manufactured in China. I went into it thinking that the stuff is going to be crap, nowhere near as tight quality as Japanese or German equivalents of the same items. Not entirely correct. They basically give you what I can only describe as a volume control slider that is directly linked to quality + price. You want near zero failure rate? You want exotic materials? You want constant re-engineering (btw there are well trained, and crazy motivated engineers of all subspecialties in China - should not be a surprise), no problem, but the slider moves to the right on price. You want a $300 (read: disposable), carbon fiber frame? No problem.

IMHO, I don't see any discussion of the counterfeit nature of these frames dissuading those that are purchasing them. On some level, I think the motivation is the same "**** you" to the man (in this case Pinarello) that people feel when they steal MP3s (**** you Metallica and RIAA) or get a pirated copy of Windows (**** you Microsoft) or whatever else. Not saying the topic should not be discussed, just that it's not going to stop anything.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

zender said:


> I didn't post on this any more in the other thread because it was getting way off track already, but of the Chinese frames posted in there, only a small minority are Pinarello copies w/ Pinarello graphics. It's not like every single person ordering from China is getting a forgery. That doesn't make them OEM, of course, but not everyone is falling over themselves to ride a Chinarello.
> 
> As to QC from mainland China. I can't speak for >10 years ago, but over the last decade I've been involved on a professional level with distribution of parts (tech related, not bikes) that are manufactured in China. I went into it thinking that the stuff is going to be crap, nowhere near as tight quality as Japanese or German equivalents of the same items. Not entirely correct. They basically give you what I can only describe as a volume control slider that is directly linked to quality + price. You want near zero failure rate? You want exotic materials? You want constant re-engineering (btw there are well trained, and crazy motivated engineers of all subspecialties in China - should not be a surprise), no problem, but the slider moves to the right on price. You want a $300 (read: disposable), carbon fiber frame? No problem.


Applies to pretty much everything, really.

I have lights made in China that work great. I have lights made in China that fail while still on the display. All related to price. You want cheap crap? You get cheap crap. What country it is doesn't matter. USA produced Huffy as well as Waterford.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

zender said:


> I didn't post on this any more in the other thread because it was getting way off track already, but of the Chinese frames posted in there, only a small minority are Pinarello copies w/ Pinarello graphics. It's not like every single person ordering from China is getting a forgery. That doesn't make them OEM, of course, but not everyone is falling over themselves to ride a Chinarello.


I don't think Platy or anyone else would disagree. This thread and that argument are about the percentage (small or not) that _are_ seeking out illegally copied frames.


----------



## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

also, how many counterfeits get ridden once or twice, then are immediately retired as the owner is sick of his riding buddies giving him grief over riding a fake?


----------



## digby (Jul 23, 2004)

anyone know if there are fake specialized SL3's on ebay?

I just bought one and it would really suck if it was not authentic.


----------



## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Counterfeit = illegal is not a "point of view" - it's a fact. That is ALL I was addressing in that thread. Fake, counterfeit Pinarellos. Why all of these people who don't own the fake Pinarello started piling on with the attacks baffles me. I didn't say "All Chinese carbon bikes are crap and you're a moron if you ride one!" That would be silly, since many/most of the bikes sold today are from China. I ONLY mentioned the counterfeit Chinarellos.


The only frames I have seen that are badged as the real brand have been done by the people buying them, not the company. I have never seen any of the Chinese companies claiming they are the name brand. I have seen a few people try to say they are and many say they look the same, so they are not counterfeit and thus not illegal. Thus it is your point of view, no matter what you try to claim otherwise.



> What "everything he says"? Counterfeit = bad is what I said. I don't remember insulting anyone. If you buy a counterfeit product, you're a criminal and a tool. Sorry, those are facts.


Of course you don't remember, you are good at insulting people and conveniently forgetting about when you get called out...on multiple cycling forums.

Yes, those are the facts, if you are buying a counterfeit product, but they aren't, no matter how many times you claim it.

(as a matter of fact, the one company using Pinarello graphics as examples of their painting has "painting just for reference" in bold red letters on that page.





> I don't care. The people I was addressing are criminals and tools. What they "like" is irrelevant.


You said _"Well, it was made very clear that I wasn't welcome in the "Let's all feel good about our cheap, fake frames" thread"_ Based on your exact words it sounds like you do care.





> Did you read my first post? I started the thread to counter the "z0mg! It's an OEM Pinarello frame that was smuggled out the back door!!!11one" crap that was being spewed.


Yes I read it and my post is dead on about you starting a thread attacking people who you are mad at because they weren't nice to you. You clearly are taking this very personally and feel that either blatantly lying or simply being out of touch with the realty of what you are posting is ok.





> Unlike you and the people who attacked me (rather than what I was saying), my customers actually know me. They know I'm opinionated, but they also know that I am infinitely fair (which is what this whole debate is about....fairness, ethics, etc.), and that I'll do most anything to help my customers/friends out.


Actually I have been in your store and have met you and since I have read your posts on various message boards I am glad I did not buy anything from you after seeing you tough guy persona you play up on message boards and your idea that insulting potential customers is a good idea.

Perhaps you shouldn't make assumptions about other Mr. Hypocrite.




> If I were to write a book (don't laugh, it has already happened), would it be okay for someone else to copy it and sell it cheaper? Isn't that what GreatKeen is doing? They're copying every aspect of a Pinarello - the things that make it immediately identifiable - and selling it as their own. They aren't copying parts or some....they're copying the bike curve for curve and logo for logo. It isn't like I'm all up in arms because their bike has two wheels and a crank just like a Pinarello... they're copying the whole damn thing. How can a thinking person think that is, in any way, justifiable?


Poor analogy. A better one would be if you wrote a book about an American amateur riding in the Tour de France and someone else did and had a similar cover to your book. The funny thing is how you are claiming the Chinese bikes are nowhere near the same, but then you claim they are counterfeits and are the same as someone copying a book word for word.

Finally, I find it interesting to see which parts of my post you chose to ignore. It doesn't surprise me as you have a history of taking the easy and angry way out of all of the arguments you get into.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Sharknose said:


> I remember seeing a photo several years ago showing just that. One of the big bike companies (Trek? Kestrel?) bought some made in China carbon frames, sawed them open to discover Chinese newspapers inside the tubes. Anyone else remember seeing this?
> 
> Edit: Found it! Thanks Google. See it at http://bicycledesign.net/2006/05/what’s-in-your-fork/


You forgot to mention that those weren't Chinese frames like the ones in the other threads, but name brand bikes made in China.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Perico said:


> The only frames I have seen that are badged as the real brand have been done by the people buying them, not the company. I have never seen any of the Chinese companies claiming they are the name brand. I have seen a few people try to say they are and many say they look the same, so they are not counterfeit and thus not illegal. Thus it is your point of view, no matter what you try to claim otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's funny is, I just looked through your posting history.... there are a lot of closed topics, and a lot of posts from you telling other people how they should be acting, accusing them of attacking you, etc.


----------



## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

The world is treating Platy poorly. His dream shop isn't the dream he had hoped it would be. The clients he insults on the net dont buy from him and a personality in here often reflects the real one out there....so the locals arent supporting him either. So he comes in here and slings his venom from wall to wall....but his opinion is not respected which pushes him to insult more, make up false credentials etc.... But still they won't believe....

Hardly a new story....


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

digby said:


> anyone know if there are fake specialized SL3's on ebay?
> 
> I just bought one and it would really suck if it was not authentic.


There had been a warning about them a while back.

When it shatters, you'll know.



(kidding)


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ColoRoadie said:


> The world is treating Platy poorly. His dream shop isn't the dream he had hoped it would be. The clients he insults on the net dont buy from him and a personality in here often reflects the real one out there....so the locals arent supporting him either. So he comes in here and slings his venom from wall to wall....but his opinion is not respected which pushes him to insult more, *make up false credentials* etc.... But still they won't believe....
> 
> Hardly a new story....


You want to expand on that, Sparky?


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> The world is treating Platy poorly. His dream shop isn't the dream he had hoped it would be. The clients he insults on the net dont buy from him and a personality in here often reflects the real one out there....so the locals arent supporting him either. So he comes in here and slings his venom from wall to wall....but his opinion is not respected which pushes him to insult more, make up false credentials etc.... But still they won't believe....
> 
> Hardly a new story....



You forgot the fat jokes you're so fond of. 

Keep reaching. One day, you'll get there.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Perico said:


> Finally, I find it interesting to see which parts of my post you chose to ignore. It doesn't surprise me as you have a history of taking the easy and angry way out of all of the arguments you get into.


Watching these people flail is so funny, first they claim it is a POS, then if you buy it and ride it, it will crash and break your face, that doesn't happen, the next thing to jump on it's a total fake, as if somehow oem frames picked by manufacturers don't ever get sold out the door with branding. 

This is an example of an open frame. 










So, if I bought this frame and painted into a Planet X Exocet or a Museeuw like below, am I counterfeiting or not? 




















Also note that several members have avoided dajianshan's post about brand companies buying up molds by manufacturers and got exclusivity on them, perhaps the molds for the Pinarellos got around and Pinarello couldn't corner the exclusivity on them.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Yep, you're a counterfeiter.
As for the supposed buying up of moulds, according to him, it IS illegal to sell raw frames. Thusly, if that scenario would be true, anyone buying would be buying stolen merchandise. Feels good, right?


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> What's funny is, I just looked through your posting history.... there are a lot of closed topics, and a lot of posts from you telling other people how they should be acting, accusing them of attacking you, etc.


Exhibit A:


3 Hours Ago
Replies: 94
Counterfeit Bikes - Pinarello, etc.
Views: 1,375
Posted By Perico
Let me get this straight, PlatyPius, a shop...

Let me get this straight, PlatyPius, a shop owner, jumps into the China frame thread and attacks and insults anyone who doesn't agree with everything he says, so he starts his own thread pushing his...


Forum: The Doping Forum 3 Weeks Ago
Replies: 284
So LeMond was "clean"??
Views: 10,684
Posted By Perico
Typical Falsetti, claim you wont discuss the...

Typical Falsetti, claim you wont discuss the topic unless it is in another thread...until you find a way to answer questions without hurting your agenda.

I can't help but laugh.


Forum: The Doping Forum 3 Weeks Ago
Replies: 284
So LeMond was "clean"??
Views: 10,684
Posted By Perico
1) I highly doubt I have ever called you asinine,...

1) I highly doubt I have ever called you asinine, I may have said some posts of yours are asinine, but I doubt I called you asinine. The rest of the stuff is proven about you constantly on these...


Forum: The Doping Forum 3 Weeks Ago
Replies: 284
So LeMond was "clean"??
Views: 10,684
Posted By Perico
Perhaps you would like to answer my question that...

Perhaps you would like to answer my question that was about what Falsetti and others were discussing...you know, since you are all about "actual discussion by rational participants."



Forum: The Doping Forum 3 Weeks Ago
Replies: 284
So LeMond was "clean"??
Views: 10,684
Posted By Perico
Why should I open a new thread when all I am...

Why should I open a new thread when all I am doing is asking you a question about something you posted in this thread?

Why do you make so many excuses and do so much to avoid answering questions...



Forum: The Doping Forum 3 Weeks Ago
Replies: 284
So LeMond was "clean"??
Views: 10,684
Posted By Perico
If I am highjacking then you have already...

If I am highjacking then you have already highjacked the thread since you can't seem to post without mentioning LA and trying to make it clear you feel he doped.

What's funny is how, whenever you...
Forum: The Doping Forum 3 Weeks Ago
Replies: 284
So LeMond was "clean"??
Views: 10,684
Posted By Perico
I am asking you a question in response to...

I am asking you a question in response to something you posted.

Here is a another question for you: Why do you refuse to honestly answer any questions that have to do with LA and are not about...



Forum: The Doping Forum 3 Weeks Ago
Replies: 284
So LeMond was "clean"??
Views: 10,684
Posted By Perico
Let's try something new...answer my question.

Let's try something new...answer my question.




Forum: Pro Cycling - Race Discussion 4 Weeks Ago
Replies: 34
Johan-UCI dispute. What do you think?
Views: 949
Posted By Perico
Interesting how you have made one post about the...

Interesting how you have made one post about the topic, not chosen to respond to people talking to you and two posts not on topic but acting like you are a mod.


Forum: Pro Cycling - Race Discussion 4 Weeks Ago
Replies: 34
Johan-UCI dispute. What do you think?
Views: 949
Posted By Perico
If I am having comprehension problems then why...

If I am having comprehension problems then why don't you explain what you mean in simple terms instead of trying to insult me?



Forum: Pro Cycling - Race Discussion 4 Weeks Ago
Replies: 34
Johan-UCI dispute. What do you think?
Views: 949
Posted By Perico
Interesting response...but totally expected from...

Interesting response...but totally expected from you.



Forum: Pro Cycling - Race Discussion 4 Weeks Ago
Replies: 34
Johan-UCI dispute. What do you think?
Views: 949
Posted By Perico
Falsetti- If you already explained it then you...

Falsetti- If you already explained it then you did a very poor job.

Den Bakker- Very few if any cyclists discuss early season racing by calling it "winter training" Nice job trying to cover your...



Forum: The Doping Forum 12-07-2010
Replies: 72
Neal Schubel, 45, suspended
Views: 2,703
Posted By Perico
Based on the responses to my post I will stick...

Based on the responses to my post I will stick with my first point as its clear some people here feel they are perfect. I will also say it's clear that some people feel that the only way for...
Forum: The Doping Forum 12-02-2010
Replies: 72
Neal Schubel, 45, suspended
Views: 2,703
Posted By Perico
Interesting to see two things: 1) How many...

Interesting to see two things:

1) How many perfect people who never make mistakes post n this forum (not even breaking a single rule in cycling...ever...even the smallest one)

2) How many people...



Forum: Pro Cycling - Race Discussion 11-29-2010
Replies: 42
Transfer Fees - For or Opposed?
Views: 778
Posted By Perico
1) What does any of this have to do with the...

1) What does any of this have to do with the comment I made about another posters responses to me?

2) I already explained why people do not wait to sign after the season...apparently you chose to...



Forum: Pro Cycling - Race Discussion 11-29-2010
Replies: 42
Transfer Fees - For or Opposed?
Views: 778
Posted By Perico
1) It's interesting watching you keep changing...

1) It's interesting watching you keep changing tact after nearly every response of mine,

2) It's interesting seeing what you choose to ignore.

3) It's interesting seeing what you apparently have...



Forum: The Doping Forum 10-11-2010
Replies: 38
I'm sorry, this is about doping again.
Views: 1,008
Posted By Perico
That's six. How long will you go on? How long...

That's six. How long will you go on? How long will you be desperate to get in the last word? How long will it be until you get banned? :lol:



Forum: The Doping Forum 10-11-2010
Replies: 38
I'm sorry, this is about doping again.
Views: 1,008
Posted By Perico
ultramobici- I get it now, this isn't about...

ultramobici- I get it now, this isn't about whether their are false positives or not it's about you harboring anger because I said something you said was asinine. Grow up.

blackjack- That makes...



Forum: The Doping Forum 10-11-2010
Replies: 38
I'm sorry, this is about doping again.
Views: 1,008
Posted By Perico
Interesting, three posts in this thread and not...

Interesting, three posts in this thread and not one about the topic. Are you getting obsessed with me? Are you getting angry because I keep calling you out on your nonsense? Will I be next on your...



Forum: The Doping Forum 10-11-2010
Replies: 38
I'm sorry, this is about doping again.
Views: 1,008
Posted By Perico
You don't like what I said so you resort to an...

You don't like what I said so you resort to an insult. Is that supposed to make your point stronger?

Do you always dismiss things out of hand that don't fit your agenda?

Do you always use...



Forum: The Doping Forum 10-11-2010
Replies: 38
I'm sorry, this is about doping again.
Views: 1,008
Posted By Perico
Please go back and re-read my post. Take a...

Please go back and re-read my post. Take a moment to try to comprehend what was written. Take another moment to think about what you comprehended.



Forum: The Doping Forum 10-11-2010
Replies: 38
I'm sorry, this is about doping again.
Views: 1,008
Posted By Perico
I believe you are immoral, but that's based on...

I believe you are immoral, but that's based on your claims versus your actions.

Nice try.



Forum: The Doping Forum 10-11-2010
Replies: 79
Blood Doping
Views: 2,323
Posted By Perico
You saying it's pointless to reason with someone...

You saying it's pointless to reason with someone else?!?!?!?!:lol: That is the funniest thing I have ever heard, especially coming from the guy that refuses to hear anything that does not agree with...



Forum: The Doping Forum 10-11-2010
Replies: 38
I'm sorry, this is about doping again.
Views: 1,008
Posted By Perico
Still waiting for you to answer my question in...

Still waiting for you to answer my question in the blood doping thread, Mr. Moral Christian. :lol:


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

And as I head to bed, review the rules, specifically this one:



> RULE 58:
> Never buy bikes, parts or accessories online. Going into your local shop, asking myriad inane questions, tying up the staff’s time, then going online to buy is akin to sleeping with your best friend’s wife, then having a beer with him after. You may as well go into your local shop and spit in the owners face. Online is evil and will be the death of the bike shop. If you enter a shop with parts you have bought online and expect them to fit them, be prepared to be told to see your online seller for fitting and warranty help.


----------



## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> it IS illegal to sell raw frames. Thusly, if that scenario would be true, anyone buying would be buying stolen merchandise. Feels good, right?


Then I'm sure you can find the law that says selling raw carbon frames is illegal. Sheesh, you make it sound like buying oem stuff is shameful and illegal when brand companies does it all the time and turn around and sell it to consumer with 3x-4x the markup. 

Here's an example, both of these lights are $15+ tax at my LBSes. 
https://www.cannondale.com/usa/usae...Tools/Lights/Details/196-8LR10-Hindsite-Ultra









https://www.blt-lights.com/product/rear_lights/wazoo/









It's $4 shipped online. 
https://www.dealextreme.com/p/9-led-bike-safety-strobe-light-2-aaa-3639









Tell me, why do I have to pay for the markup when I can get it cheaper?


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

mrbubbles said:


> Sheesh, you make it sound like buying oem stuff is shameful and illegal when brand companies does it all the time and turn around and sell it to consumer with 3x-4x the markup.


Btw, the accessory market for electronics like cellphone, mp3, computers is absolutely notorious for this, consumers are literally getting hosed. Contact some Far East manufacturer, buy in bulk, have them stamp your name on them, and sell them at 10x the markup.


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> You forgot the fat jokes you're so fond of.
> 
> Keep reaching. One day, you'll get there.


I'm not making any fat jokes. If he claims to be a carbon fiber frame expert who bought a Chinese frame and says it sucks in comparison to all his carbon experiences....and in other posts he admits to being 300lbs and rides roughly 1000 miles a year....those admissions are relevant to his claimed expertise. It's not a joke, it's a reference to facts stated by him. 

If a 300 lb guy claimed to be a former tour stage winner or a professional ballet dancer I would look at that claim with the same state of extreme doubt as I have with Platy. I'm neither making fun, nor attacking him. I'm simply doubting his sincerity, integrity and motives.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

I have 3 different versions of the Serfas SL-ONE/Planet Bike SuperFlash/etc. They're all different prices. The cheap version does look exactly like the others, but I've had a 50% fail rate with them. Cheaper guts, I guess.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ColoRoadie said:


> I'm not making any fat jokes. If *he claims to be a carbon fiber frame expert* who bought a Chinese frame and says it sucks in comparison to all his carbon experiences....and in other posts he admits to being 300lbs and *rides roughly 1000 miles a year*....those admissions are relevant to his claimed expertise. It's not a joke, it's a reference to facts stated by him.
> 
> If a 300 lb guy claimed to be a former tour stage winner or a professional ballet dancer I would look at that claim with the same state of extreme doubt as I have with Platy. I'm neither making fun, nor attacking him. I'm simply doubting his sincerity, integrity and motives.


#1) I have never, ever claimed to be a carbon frame expert. I have ridden good carbon frames and I've ridden crap carbon frames. I've had to warranty many broken carbon frames. But I am far from being an expert. I can't build them. I can only tell you how they ride and which ones have had a lot of warranty claims (of the brands I've sold). 

#2) No, as I mentioned in that one post, I rode 1000 miles LAST year, while I was getting the shop going. The year prior I rode roughly 3000 miles and about 3800 the year before that. Not that any of this is really relevant to anything.

I have ridden Chinese carbon frames that rode great. They had someone's name on them, though. I've owned one no-name and ridden another. They both sucked. Obviously this doesn't mean that they all suck, but in my limited experience, the no-names have sucked.

However, I don't know what this has to do with this thread. This thread is about counterfeit Pinarellos. It isn't about Chinese carbon bikes in general.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> I'm not making any fat jokes. If he claims to be a carbon fiber frame expert who bought a Chinese frame and says it sucks in comparison to all his carbon experiences....and in other posts he admits to being 300lbs and rides roughly 1000 miles a year....those admissions are relevant to his claimed expertise. It's not a joke, it's a reference to facts stated by him.
> 
> If a 300 lb guy claimed to be a former tour stage winner or a professional ballet dancer I would look at that claim with the same state of extreme doubt as I have with Platy. I'm neither making fun, nor attacking him. I'm simply doubting his sincerity, integrity and motives.


And your sincerity, integrity and motives are any better? Claiming that high end bikes need to be dremeled to fit together properly? Saying some "hack" who helped people rebuild speedplay pedals gets whatever is coming to him? Claiming that there's nothing wrong with putting "Pinarello" on a frame that isn't?

That's integrity? That's sincerity? Motives? Really?

Pot, have you met kettle?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mrbubbles said:


> Then I'm sure you can find the law that says selling raw carbon frames is illegal. Sheesh, you make it sound like buying oem stuff is shameful and illegal when brand companies does it all the time and turn around and sell it to consumer with 3x-4x the markup.
> 
> Here's an example, both of these lights are $15+ tax at my LBSes.
> https://www.cannondale.com/usa/usae...Tools/Lights/Details/196-8LR10-Hindsite-Ultra
> ...


So buy the cheap one. And be prepared to buy about 4 more when they crap out because they are cheap junk. If that poor standard of quality is ok with you, then be my guest.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Dajianshan said:


> I am borrowing my builder's bike until my new one arrives and it is an aluminum aero bike. The mold was bought up and now it is a Cervelo S1.
> 
> 
> This IS a Pinarello. It was probably manufactured and bought for peanuts on what the same frame with logos goes for.


how can i believe you when you say that a Cervelo S1 comes out of a mold? did you miss the fact that an S1 is a welded aluminum frame? 
and no...that is NOT a Pinarello. it's not a Pinarello unless it says Pinarello on the frame and is delivered through their distribution network.
just yesterday a guy brought a fork into the shop...looked a lot like a Dogma fork, but it wasn't. i've built more than one actual Dogma, and this wasn't the real thing. the steerer tube/crown junction was radiused...no way you could install a crown race. this poor guy bought 3 of these frames, and now he can't use them as there is no way to install a normal integrated headset and actually be able to adjust the damn thing.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> So buy the cheap one. And be prepared to buy about 4 more when they crap out because they are cheap junk. If that poor standard of quality is ok with you, then be my guest.


LOL. You still don't get it, what is the difference if I buy it for $4 a piece at 1 moq and Cannondale buys it for $2 a piece at 500 moq? The answer is: the msrp and the logos.

Guess what? The same thing can be done with bike frames. Museeuw MC-TT is $3000, you can buy the same frame nude at Dengfu for $700. 

FYI, the lights are working fine, I retired them and gave a few away, I'm using flashlights as a taillight with the comparable power of a Dinotte.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

I don't think they are counterfeit, no proof of that. Same mould, same weight, same geometry, great ride. These are real carbon fiber frames, strong, stiff, compliant, light. Lots of great review from other owners, even one from a Pinarello owner. Highly customizable to your personal taste. Very affordable. See it in person and you will be amazed, ride it and you will turn into a believer that these are real bargain. You will get so much more value than branded frames. Save your money.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mrbubbles said:


> LOL. You still don't get it, what is the difference if I buy it for $4 a piece at 1 moq and Cannondale buys it for $2 a piece at 500 moq? The answer is: the msrp and the logos.
> 
> Guess what? The same thing can be done with bike frames. Museeuw MC-TT is $3000, you can buy the same frame nude at Dengfu for $700.
> 
> FYI, the lights are working fine, I retired them and gave a few away, I'm using flashlights as a taillight with the comparable power of a Dinotte.


So you're sure that's the exact same frame, sans paint? You must be imbued with incalculable powers to know everything from the inside out with no evidence.

Highly doubt it's the same frame for 1/4 of the cost.

You're simply one of the hopeless few who thinks they're sticking it to the man and keeping them from getting their markup. Good luck with that attitude.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> how can i believe you when you say that a Cervelo S1 comes out of a mold? did you miss the fact that an S1 is a welded aluminum frame?
> and no...that is NOT a Pinarello. it's not a Pinarello unless it says Pinarello on the frame and is delivered through their distribution network.
> just yesterday a guy brought a fork into the shop...looked a lot like a Dogma fork, but it wasn't. i've built more than one actual Dogma, and this wasn't the real thing. the steerer tube/crown junction was radiused...no way you could install a crown race. this poor guy bought 3 of these frames, and now he can't use them as there is no way to install a normal integrated headset and actually be able to adjust the damn thing.


I noticed the mold =/= aluminum frame thing, too.

Isn't the LOOK 586 made in Tunisia?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

vladvm said:


> I don't think they are counterfeit, no proof of that. Same mould, same weight, same geometry, great ride. These are real carbon fiber frames, strong, stiff, compliant, light. Lots of great review from other owners, even one from a Pinarello owner. Highly customizable to your personal taste. Very affordable. See it in person and you will be amazed, ride it and you will turn into a believer that these are real bargain. You will get so much more value than branded frames. Save your money.


Nice opinion. Too bad "much more value than branded frames" is in the eye of the beholder.

Oh, and why no lugged carbon frames? Just not as easy to rip off I guess...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

vladvm said:


> I don't think they are counterfeit, no proof of that. Same mould, same weight, same geometry, great ride. These are real carbon fiber frames, strong, stiff, compliant, light. Lots of great review from other owners, even one from a Pinarello owner. Highly customizable to your personal taste. Very affordable. See it in person and you will be amazed, ride it and you will turn into a believer that these are real bargain. You will get so much more value than branded frames. Save your money.


I don't doubt that it rides nice, and honestly, I thought yours looked pretty cool. My issue is with the ones coming out of GreatKeen with complete Pinarello graphics.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> So you're sure that's the exact same frame, sans paint? You must be imbued with incalculable powers to know everything from the inside out with no evidence.
> 
> Highly doubt it's the same frame for 1/4 of the cost.
> 
> You're simply one of the hopeless few who thinks they're sticking it to the man and keeping them from getting their markup. Good luck with that attitude.


LOL, you still think brand companies don't buy oem off the shelf frameset and branded it themselves? LOL @ robdamanii.

Here's a Planet X Nanolight, note the box. 

https://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/ne...t-super-record-and-dura-ace-di2-custom-builds









And this is where they got it from. Note: "xpace"
https://www.xpa-cycling.com/products_data.php?htm=15.html&key=2

Also sold here.
https://shangding.en.alibaba.com/pr...Carbon_Road_bike_frame_FM_R830SL_FK_R830.html


How much more proof do you need?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mrbubbles said:


> LOL, you still think brand companies don't buy oem off the shelf frameset and branded it themselves? LOL @ robdamanii.
> 
> Here's a Planet X Nanolight, note the box.
> 
> ...


We've already covered companies who buy "pre-configured" frames from a catalog and put their name on them. I mean seriously....who the hell is "Planet X"? Does anyone really consider them to be a real bike company? I know I don't.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> Highly doubt it's the same frame for 1/4 of the cost.


Another mistake commonly made by consumers is assuming that the final end product cost has any correlation with the production cost, that when a item cost x, it should cost y to make, and anything outside this parameter suggests there's something wrong with the product. The first rule is to drop this myth and think outside of it. 

Businesses often take advantage of this folly by lowering production cost while aggressively marketing to increase the end user cost, at the mean time also aggressively marketing that similar products that cost below the suggested retail price is inferior. This also preys on consumer's penchant for Veblen goods. This is highly successful for companies with already established reputation, they can easily go out and buy oem products, slap their name on it, and sell it for hefty markups.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> Meh, when you've got no ground to stand on, and simply regurgitate the same old garbage about "how great they are, they never fail and the QC is fine" (even though you need power tools to put the frame together?) why not go after weight? Pretty much all he's got left, no?


i'll admit i haven't read the whole thread, but power tools? 'sanding/dremeling'? really? this guy had to resort to doing this before he could put his parts on the frame...and he thinks it's ok 'cuz he only paid a few hundred bucks for the frame? seriously? 
i'm offended by the fact that these factories are selling frames that 'look' just like brand name bikes, but aren't. the people that buy them are confused to a certain degree, and they'll never understand why we feel the way we do. all they see is a 'good deal'...
and to personally attack Platy because they think he is physically unable to ride a bike, thus he can't know what he's talking about? jesus...somebody's parents failed big time. it's so easy to sling crap when you can hide behind the anonymity of the interwebs.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

PlatyPius said:


> 1. We've already covered companies who buy "pre-configured" frames from a catalog and put their name on them. 2. I mean seriously....who the hell is "Planet X"? Does anyone really consider them to be a real bike company? I know I don't.


1. Let's take it one step further, how about companies who buy "pre-configured" frames and contract exclusivity on them so that no other companies will have the same frame? Should consumers never be allow to buy the oem of these frames?

2. I wouldn't buy Planet X either, but they are popular in UK, their sister brand On One is popular on both side of the pond.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> We've already covered companies who buy "pre-configured" frames from a catalog and put their name on them. I mean seriously....who the hell is "Planet X"? Does anyone really consider them to be a real bike company? I know I don't.


Oh man, next you'll be casting doubts on the Motobecane/French connection!

Still, it isn't much of stretch to imagine a name brand company breaking into a new market segment by picking up an already developed design by the supplier. The difference is that a company like Pacific Cycle is going to get an exclusive on the design so it doesn't pop up on Planet X's website as well.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mrbubbles said:


> 1. Let's take it one step further, how about companies who buy "pre-configured" frames and contract exclusivity on them so that no other companies will have the same frame? Should consumers never be allow to buy the oem of these frames?
> 
> 2. I wouldn't buy Planet X either, but they are popular in UK, their sister brand On One is popular on both side of the pond.


#1) No, customers should not be able to buy OEM versions of a frame that has been "spoken for". Once the contract with the purchasing company ends; sure. Until then, no. There's an exclusivity contract. Ergo, they shouldn't be competing with their own customer.

#2) Certain companies you just *know* are buying frames from a catalog. If there's no exclusivity agreement, then I don't have a problem with buying those direct from the factory; I would do so myself. Hong Fu and such that make frames of their own design are also ethically fine. They aren't trying to pass off their frames as something they're not.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> Still, it isn't much of stretch to imagine a name brand company breaking into a new market segment by picking up an already developed design by the supplier.


Mercury Bikes tried that with the FM015 and they gave up, (there's another state-side brand reviewed on here as well but I don't remember what it was). I guess selling $2000 frames when you can get them for $500 didn't pan out too well. 

Funny enough, the US Road National Championship was won one of the Mercury branded FM015.









https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/u...oad-national-championships-cn-1/day-6/results

Then of course, $300+ cheap shizz China frame should fall apart because some here said so.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

mrbubbles said:


> Mercury Bikes tried that with the FM015 and they gave up, (there's another state-side brand reviewed on here as well but I don't remember what it was). I guess selling $2000 frames when you can get them for $500 didn't pan out too well.
> 
> Funny enough, the US Road National Championship was won one of the Mercury branded FM015.
> 
> ...


Lesson: Get an exclusive contract on something more interesting than an FM015.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> Lesson: Get an exclusive contract on something more interesting than an FM015.


Yes, like this. Oops, exclusivity contract broken.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

mrbubbles said:


> Mercury Bikes tried that with the FM015 and they gave up, (there's another state-side brand reviewed on here as well but I don't remember what it was).


Found the other brand. It's a Diamond DM-1, another rebadged FM015.

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/blog/diamond-dm-1-pro-race-review/


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## fab4 (Jan 8, 2003)

Dajianshan said:


> Trek is produced by the same company as Cervelo. It is NOT Trek. I ride with the president of the company that manufacturers both Trek and Cervelo.


That explains why my local Trek bicycle super store only sell Trek & Cervelo.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

fab4 said:


> That explains why my local Trek bicycle super store only sell Trek & Cervelo.


Trek owns some of its overseas production. Look for the "where was my bike made" thread.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

If they pulled the stickers off a real bike and a chinese copy, I doubt id be able to visually tell which one was real, and I doubt Id be able to tell by riding. I bet the massive majority of riders couldnt either. 

I got my real bike from my LBS, but I really couldnt care less if people want chinese carbon frames. Sure seems more like a loaded argument versus anything backed in real fact.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

That is welded aluminum. Not a molded bike. Still from one of the manufacturers then the design was purchased.


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## Mumblesmiler (Jan 9, 2011)

Painting one up as a Pinarello is a bit sad and its not something I'd do, mostly as I'd get laughed at by club mates  

But 99% of the frames posted up on the other thread are left unbranded and ridden as an unbranded ebay special which is how I describe mine if anyone asks.

There are a hanfull of frames that have needed tweaking but thats why their cheap!! your buying direct from a factory as a trade customer.

Their not high end frames but they are decent frames and good enough for us mere mortals to race on, at the moment I'd probably buy a Planet X as their £360 including fork in their sale.

As for "who are Planet X" ? their probably the most popular frame for the amateur racer in the U.K


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## mobilesleepy (Nov 11, 2010)

Great thread. Would read again.

Loving the Chinarello/Carbon knock-off fanaticism. Reminds me of how pissed off Fakengers would get when called out by Couriers back in ye olden days.
Makes me feel warm and fuzzy for deciding to get a "Made in the USA" CAAD9.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

When you purchase straight from factory, make sure to tell them which exact model you want because they have different weights for 54cm frame, 900g, 1050g and 1250g. Lighter frames cost $100 more than the other. Also if you prefer asymmetric ones be clear with yoru email. Expect to pay additional $30-60 to customize the painting but naked carbon looks better IMO, like snake skin. Some sellers, you have to wait but others have them readily available to ship and you'll get it around 10days.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> i'll admit i haven't read the whole thread, but power tools? 'sanding/dremeling'? really? this guy had to resort to doing this before he could put his parts on the frame...and he thinks it's ok 'cuz he only paid a few hundred bucks for the frame? seriously?
> i'm offended by the fact that these factories are selling frames that 'look' just like brand name bikes, but aren't. the people that buy them are confused to a certain degree, and they'll never understand why we feel the way we do. all they see is a 'good deal'...
> and to personally attack Platy because they think he is physically unable to ride a bike, thus he can't know what he's talking about? jesus...somebody's parents failed big time. it's so easy to sling crap when you can hide behind the anonymity of the interwebs.


This came up in the other thread.

Supposedly, there were huge gobs of dried resin that needed grinding off to install the headset. In other cases, people have reported having to sand down the crown to install a race (not just a little touch up, but aggressively sanding down the crown) and having to drill out or dremel down the heads of brake mounting bolts just to get them to fit in the frame.

That's not too normal. But then again, neither is yelling at some guy because he weighs XX amount, so yeah....


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

Mumblesmiler said:


> mostly as I'd get laughed at by club mates


drop em, then laugh at the finish.


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

Counterfits are funny. My wife went to Shanghai last year and bought a watch I've always liked (Omega Seamaster) for $40US. It looked nice, felt heavy, colors correct, but I completely knew it was a fake. It lasted for a year, then stopped working. I have an Omega dealer 1/2mi from my office, so just for fun I brought it over there to see what he thought. I was honest about where it came from. He opened it us and said it was about 70% real Omega parts. He fixed it. If I ever have 5k to buy a watch it will be from him. It still works to this day.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

PlatyPius said:


> Or, "No Virginia, you really *can't* buy a Pinarello frame for $600."
> 
> This is purely informational, as I felt a counterpoint was needed to the illogical postulation about fake Pinarellos from Great Keen Bike in China being real, actual - but "OEM" - Pinarello frames.
> 
> ...


Platy, you know I like me frames hand-made in France, but as far as I can tell, Great Keen (or any other of the many PRC-based frame sellers) do not market their frames as Pinarello fakes. None of the frames they sell is badged Pinarello. It just happens that the shape is very similar to, or made as close as possible to, Pinarello. Unless Pinarello has a patent on that particular shape, I don't think there is anything anybody can do lawfully against this. You can call it a copy-cat, but it's hard to argue that it's counterfeit. 

Look at all the copy-cat cars that come out every year at the Beijing car show. 

http://cars.uk.msn.com/features/photos.aspx?cp-documentid=150107488

I think (European, Japanese, US) car companies have been having a hard time stopping these copycats exactly for the same reason: what constitutes intellectual property and how is it protected?


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## providince (May 20, 2010)

ColoRoadie said:


> There have been what, 4....or is it 5 of these pinarello clones posted on this board? Do you guys think Pinarello can't afford to defend themselves if they feel the threat you are speaking of is real? 4 or 5 clones isn't much of a threat. One or two guys saying these may be OEM doesn't mean there is some mass hysteria over it either. The kit car explanation given earlier makes a lot of sense to me.
> 
> I can tell you that my Dengfu fm027 rides significantly better than my Litespeed. My local shops have all raved about it as well. I can afford to buy any bike I care to, but I built a campy chorus 11 Chinese frame up because I choose to build high end value. I chose the frame because I have never heard of one of these frames failing. Through 7 or 8 thousand chinese bike frame posts on this forum...not one frame failure. Are they perfect? Nope, but they are pretty damn good. I couldn't be happier with mine.
> 
> ...



+1 This!


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> It's here to ensure that people don't wander into the other threads and have the wool pulled over their eyes by zealots who don't understand basic logic.
> 
> People deserve the cons as well as the pros of these things. If you're not comfortable with having all the facts out there, perhaps you'd be better off not stopping by, eh?


A very lame post that undermines your mission. You need to stop the mouth breathing and relax. Nobody is out to keep the truth from getting out, Agent Mulder.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> #1) No, customers should not be able to buy OEM versions of a frame that has been "spoken for". Once the contract with the purchasing company ends; sure. Until then, no. There's an exclusivity contract. Ergo, they shouldn't be competing with their own customer.
> 
> #2) Certain companies you just *know* are buying frames from a catalog. If there's no exclusivity agreement, then I don't have a problem with buying those direct from the factory; I would do so myself. Hong Fu and such that make frames of their own design are also ethically fine. They aren't trying to pass off their frames as something they're not.


Interestingly, a similar thing happened with the Fondriest P4 years ago. Deddaciai gave away the design apparently, and suddenly quite a few frames started popping up with that pinched tube design. Fondriest promptly cancelled the P4, which was really a shame. Great bike and great company back then.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DiegoMontoya said:


> A very lame post that undermines your mission. You need to stop the mouth breathing and relax. Nobody is out to keep the truth from getting out, Agent Mulder.


Your comparison of me to David Duchovny is flattering as can be. Thanks!

The problem with people like you is you can't bring yourselves to believe anything negative about your "investment," let alone say anything negative about it. Frankly, I'd love to be able to live in a world like that, but the reality is there are pros and cons to these things. Of course, the louder you scream the pros, the louder I will scream the cons.

So keep supporting counterfeiting, it's good for the kharma.


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Your comparison of me to David Duchovny is flattering as can be. Thanks!
> 
> The problem with people like you is you can't bring yourselves to believe anything negative about your "investment," let alone say anything negative about it. Frankly, I'd love to be able to live in a world like that, but the reality is there are pros and cons to these things. Of course, the louder you scream the pros, the louder I will scream the cons.
> 
> So keep supporting counterfeiting, it's good for the kharma.


Investment? $400 isn't an investment...

A bike is a tool. The man riding it is the investment. The problem with guys like you is your self worth is tied to how much your frame costs rather than how many miles you've put on it. You can't let go of the idea that more money must be better. I'm not attacking you...hell I absolutely love guys like you. Don't change a thing. You're perfect. 

:smilewinkgrin:


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ColoRoadie said:


> Investment? $400 isn't an investment...unless you work at McDonalds or a very small shop in Indiana.
> 
> A bike is a tool. The man riding it is the investment. The problem with guys like you is your self worth is tied to how much your frame costs rather than how many miles you've put on it. You can't let go of the idea that more money must be better. I'm not attacking you...hell I absolutely love guys like you. Don't change a thing. You're perfect.
> 
> :smilewinkgrin:


Did you actually take the same military oath I did?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> Investment? $400 isn't an investment. A bike is a tool. The man riding it is the investment. The problem with guys like you is your self worth is tied to how much your frame costs rather than how many miles you've put on it. You can't let go of the idea that more money must be better. I'm not attacking you...hell I absolutely love guys like you. Don't change a thing. You're perfect.
> 
> :smilewinkgrin:


There you go with the insults again. How cute.

You're right, the more money spent, the better it is. The better dealer support, the better warranty, the better crash replacement, the better finishing quality...need I go on? When you buy cheap tools you get what you pay for. So you bought a cheap tool, don't be surprised when it's not up to the standards of a quality tool.

To me, the sad thing is your such a blind fanboy that you don't know the difference between crap and quality. You're more obsessed with getting a good deal than getting a good quality item, and that is a real sad thing to hear. Anytime someone thinks with their wallet first, they're a lost cause.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

Were I to spend the money on a Chinese frame I would proudly put a "GREATKEENBIKE" sticker on the downtube to display my new beauty. I love how the Chinese try to transfer our language over to theirs, and vice versa.
If someone is really a fan, they could e-mail these companies and suggest a new name that sounds cooler to Americans like "Really Cool Bike".


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Everyone please take a deep breath before posting again. We are creeping over the personal insult line again, after doing quite well the first few pages. Seeing nobody is changing their opinions in this thread, the stakes are pretty low- so please think of your poor Moderators and not lay into each other m-kay?


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

i think I already put 1000+ ride miles (outdoor/indoor) since i finished the bike back in December last year. If I did not buy the frame, mileage would be 0. This cheap frame made me exercise more!


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## GoingCarbon (Jan 4, 2011)

Coolhand said:


> Everyone please take a deep breath before posting again. We are creeping over the personal insult line again, after doing quite well the first few pages. Seeing nobody is changing their opinions in this thread, the stakes are pretty low- so please think of your poor Moderators and not lay into each other m-kay?


If posters spent more time riding and less time ranting wouldn't this be a friendlier place. :thumbsup: 

OK I can dream


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> You're right, the more money spent, the better it is. The better dealer support, the better warranty, the better crash replacement, the better finishing quality...need I go on? When you buy cheap tools you get what you pay for. So you bought a cheap tool, don't be surprised when it's not up to the standards of a quality tool.


There you go again with the absolutes that's been debunked long ago, more money _must_ equal better quality. 

My Specialized S-Works is dealer bought, and I have never needed dealer support, warranty, better crash replacement, the better finishing quality is subjective, as having worked in a bike shop years ago, frames coming from the factories do need works done, regardless. Those extraneous aftermarket support is useless if you don't need them, after you calculate the probability and the cost analysis of using them, you are much farther ahead just by purchasing a $300-$500 frame, provided that you didn't buy a dud. Then there are people who lack mechanical aptitudes, like the guy who couldn't measure the TTT properly, it's best they stick to the LBS.


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> You're right, the more money spent, the better it is. The better dealer support, the better warranty, the better crash replacement, the better finishing quality...need I go on? When you buy cheap tools you get what you pay for. So you bought a cheap tool, don't be surprised when it's not up to the standards of a quality tool.
> 
> To me, the sad thing is your such a blind fanboy that you don't know the difference between crap and quality. You're more obsessed with getting a good deal than getting a good quality item, and that is a real sad thing to hear. Anytime someone thinks with their wallet first, they're a lost cause.



Perhaps my Litespeed is a piece of crap as you say. I can attest that I prefer the chinese carbon frame over that particular Litespeed but that is a personal preference and since I own both and they both fit perfectly I get to choose every morning on my way out of the garage. More often than not I choose the Dengfu.

You seem rather filled with hatred of these chinese frames. Platy is up in arms over the 4 or so clones we've seen, but in this thread and the other you seem particularly against all chinese frames, not just the clones. You call me a fanboy, say my frame (which is not a clone but rather a Dengfu original) is a cheap tool but you've never met me or even so much as seen a model of my bike. Which of us is being the more logical here...the guy who insults and attacks with ferver that which he has never seen...or the guy who purchased an amazing frame without paint on it and says so? 

Take a deep breath. Nobody is out to get you here. They are just bikes.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> What's funny is, I just looked through your posting history.... there are a lot of closed topics, and a lot of posts from you telling other people how they should be acting, accusing them of attacking you, etc.


No, what's really funny is that you are trying to turn this into me being a bad poster instead of the facts I presented to you, your hypocrisy, your false statements, etc.

Now why would you do that? Usually, when people try misdirection it's because they have no intelligent response.

Thanks for playing internet tough guy.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

these frames are best bang for the buck! If not for the chinese frame thread, i would have never known about them, would never own a full carbon frame, would never have bought DA group and SSC SL wheelset with the money leftover and would never experience what sublime ride is.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Perico said:


> No, what's really funny is that you are trying to turn this into me being a bad poster instead of the facts I presented to you, your hypocrisy, your false statements, etc.
> 
> Now why would you do that? Usually, when people try misdirection it's because they have no intelligent response.
> 
> Thanks for playing internet tough guy.


What hypocrisy? What "false statements"? Seriously.... what the hell are you talking about?


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

rx-79g said:


> Did you actually take the same military oath I did?


Well, I am not sure. Did your oath say something about protecting bikes with made in Italy stickers on them? Mine did not. When I was in Afgan, there weren't any bikes to attack or defend. None in Iraq either. When the IED went off under our hummer and everyone in it died except me (shielded by the engine)...there weren't any Italian/Chinese frames that I can recall. When the docs said I'd never walk without a cane again...they didn't mention bikes. As it turned out, after a bunch of work on me, I walk fine and ride my bike fine although my bars are closer to level with my seat than I would wish...but there is nothing I can do about that. Still, I don't remember anything in my oath that mentioned protecting price gouging LBS's and their supply chain. It's been quite a number of years since I took that oath though...perhaps I've forgotten. Remind me.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> Perhaps my Litespeed is a piece of crap as you say. I can attest that I prefer the chinese carbon frame over that particular Litespeed but that is a personal preference and since I own both and they both fit perfectly I get to choose every morning on my way out of the garage. More often than not I choose the Dengfu.
> 
> You seem rather filled with hatred of these chinese frames. Platy is up in arms over the 4 or so clones we've seen, but in this thread and the other you seem particularly against all chinese frames, not just the clones. You call me a fanboy, say my frame (which is not a clone but rather a Dengfu original) is a cheap tool but you've never met me or even so much as seen a model of my bike. Which of us is being the more logical here...the guy who insults and attacks with ferver that which he has never seen...or the guy who purchased an amazing frame without paint on it and says so?
> 
> Take a deep breath. Nobody is out to get you here. They are just bikes.


Who is more logical? The guy who bought a quality carbon frame instead of a $400 throw away frame? The guy who claims that these frames are the same or are OEM frames of actual companies, or those who are skeptical of such huge assumptions? The guy who is not bothered by the moral and ethical implications of counterfeiting a frame down to the paint and stickers, or someone who speaks out against it? 

Face it kiddo, you're just aggravated that someone actually spoke up as to the negatives of these pieces, and called you on your shenanigans (all carbon frames need the attention of a dremel and sandpaper...HAH!) As for meeting you, I don't have to. A cheap tool is a cheap tool, no matter who uses it, despite what you may think.

And we'll finally agree on something: I'll agree with you that most carbon frames ride better than Litespeeds.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ColoRoadie said:


> Perhaps my Litespeed is a piece of crap as you say. I can attest that I prefer the chinese carbon frame over that particular Litespeed but that is a personal preference and since I own both and they both fit perfectly I get to choose every morning on my way out of the garage. More often than not I choose the Dengfu.
> 
> You seem rather filled with hatred of these chinese frames. * Platy is up in arms over the 4 or so clones we've seen*, but in this thread and the other you seem particularly against all chinese frames, not just the clones. You call me a fanboy, say my frame (which is not a clone but rather a Dengfu original) is a cheap tool but you've never met me or even so much as seen a model of my bike. Which of us is being the more logical here...the guy who insults and attacks with ferver that which he has never seen...or the guy who purchased an amazing frame without paint on it and says so?
> 
> Take a deep breath. Nobody is out to get you here. They are just bikes.


Exactly. My issue is with the Pinarello "clones" (forgeries, counterfeits, etc) that are shown on the GreatKeenBike website (and available for purchase, just as they are shown). I don't give a crap about Chinese carbon frames. If you're going to buy one of those, you weren't going to buy from a bike shop anyway, and definitely not mine, so why should I care?

My "fight" is about ethics. Just like people who fight for the environment, fight for women's rights, fight for the 2nd Amendment, or whatever. My issue is with the loss of ethics and morals in society.

So, by me saying something bad about those 4 fake Pinarellos, I now have several "fans" who follow me to other threads talking sh!+ about my bike shop, about me, about how fat I am, etc.

No one seems to want to talk about ethics.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ColoRoadie said:


> Well, I am not sure. Did your oath say something about protecting bikes with made in Italy stickers on them? Mine did not. When I was in Afgan, there weren't any bikes to attack or defend. None in Iraq either. When the IED went off under our hummer and everyone in it died except me (shielded by the engine)...there weren't any Italian/Chinese frames that I can recall. When the docs said I'd never walk without a cane again...they didn't mention bikes. As it turned out, after a bunch of work on me, I walk fine and ride my bike fine although my bars are closer to level with my seat than I would wish...but there is nothing I can do about that. Still, I don't remember anything in my oath that* mentioned protecting price gouging LBS's* and their supply chain. It's been quite a number of years since I took that oath though...perhaps I've forgotten. Remind me.


It isn't the bike shops doing the price gouging....


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mrbubbles said:


> There you go again with the absolutes that's been debunked long ago, more money _must_ equal better quality.
> 
> My Specialized S-Works is dealer bought, and I have never needed dealer support, warranty, better crash replacement, the better finishing quality is subjective, as having worked in a bike shop years ago, frames coming from the factories do need works done, regardless. Those extraneous aftermarket support is useless if you don't need them, after you calculate the probability and the cost analysis of using them, you are much farther ahead just by purchasing a $300-$500 frame, provided that you didn't buy a dud. Then there are people who lack mechanical aptitudes, like the guy who couldn't measure the TTT properly, it's best they stick to the LBS.


The point you're not understanding is that average joe six pack DOES need those aftermarket services. How many questions do you see on here about how to adjust a simple cable tension? How many simple questions that could easily be solved by a google search?

The average person really shouldn't be purchasing these frames, because they're frankly not skilled enough to build and maintain their own bikes. That's why you have dealer networks established. And let's talk warranty (from the chinese frames thread): the LBS cracked the bars when installing them, so now instead of simply calling the manufacturer and saying "this bar cracked, can we do a warranty on it," the owner has to email china and wait for them to figure it out. In the meantime, the bike is unsafe and unusable. Had that been a name brand component, there's a good chance it would be able to be warrantied in a substantially shorter amount of time.

So think about it objectively: these are not all roses as you and many others make them out to be. They have distinct caveats and problems that should be disclosed to people thinking about purchasing them. 

Do I think they are inferior? Absolutely. Are they a good value? Sure, if you're not at all discerning about what you buy and where you buy it from. Would I recommend them to someone looking for a frame in that price range? Nope, I'd tell them to go major manufacturer and simply look at a lower end frame from the "carbon wonder bike." And that's MHO from someone who actually thinks about their purchase from all angles, instead of thinking with my wallet alone.

And counterfeit bikes are STILL an aberration that need to be eliminated.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Your comparison of me to David Duchovny is flattering as can be. Thanks!
> 
> The problem with people like you is you can't bring yourselves to believe anything negative about your "investment," let alone say anything negative about it. Frankly, I'd love to be able to live in a world like that, but the reality is there are pros and cons to these things. Of course, the louder you scream the pros, the louder I will scream the cons.
> 
> So keep supporting counterfeiting, it's good for the kharma.


Investment? I ride a real Pinarello Prince. What are you taking about?!?! You make absolutely no sense. All wind, no sails. How exactly am I supporting counterfeiting by investing in a real Prince?

I just don't get all huffy about people talking about their Chinarellos. I've bought blank frames before for friends. I rode one for a while and liked it fine. BFD.

The only thing you're doing is encouraging people to buy more counterfeit frames or whatever through all your ranting. You are doing the bike industry no favors whatsoever.


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## zender (Jun 20, 2009)

That phantom copy is off the chain, it even has the Spirit of Ecstasy -of a sort. I've never seen a luxo sedan with only a single rear seat! How pimp is that?


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> It isn't the bike shops doing the price gouging....


Exactly. I wish more people realized this. Apparently, people don't quite understand this concept. How many millionaire bike shop owners who got there selling bikes? Not too many. Anyone here see the price sheet Campy put out last year? Yeah. Dealer cost here>probikekit, slane, etc.at retail.

People, you can BUY stuff from overseas cheaper than the shops get them AT COST. That's hurting the bike shops more than these frames from China.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DiegoMontoya said:


> Investment? I ride a real Pinarello Prince. What are you taking about?!?! You make absolutely no sense. All wind, no sails. How exactly am I supporting counterfeiting by investing in a real Prince?
> 
> I just don't get all huffy about people talking about their Chinarellos. I've bought blank frames before for friends. I rode one for a while and liked it fine. BFD.
> 
> The only thing you're doing is encouraging people to buy more counterfeit frames or whatever through all your ranting. You are doing the bike industry no favors whatsoever.


And buying counterfeit frames does the industry a favor? Pot? Kettle? Have you met?

I'm especially disgusted by people like you who actually purchase the real thing and then turn around and advocate screwing the company by purchasing a counterfeit.



DiegoMontoya said:


> Exactly. I wish more people realized this. Apparently, people don't quite understand this concept. How many millionaire bike shop owners who got there selling bikes? Not too many. Anyone here see the price sheet Campy put out last year? Yeah. Dealer cost here>probikekit, slane, etc.at retail.
> 
> People, you can BUY stuff from overseas cheaper than the shops get them AT COST. That's hurting the bike shops more than these frames from China.


So do you assume that by buying directly from the manufacturer (regardless of the item) you're going to force down the cost of the item?


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Who is more logical? The guy who bought a quality carbon frame instead of a $400 throw away frame? The guy who claims that these frames are the same or are OEM frames of actual companies, or those who are skeptical of such huge assumptions? The guy who is not bothered by the moral and ethical implications of counterfeiting a frame down to the paint and stickers, or someone who speaks out against it?
> 
> Face it kiddo, you're just aggravated that someone actually spoke up as to the negatives of these pieces, and called you on your shenanigans (all carbon frames need the attention of a dremel and sandpaper...HAH!) As for meeting you, I don't have to. A cheap tool is a cheap tool, no matter who uses it, despite what you may think.
> 
> And we'll finally agree on something: I'll agree with you that most carbon frames ride better than Litespeeds.


You are so desperate to have an argument that you just can't stay focused. You seriously don't recall who it is you are insulting, what they've said in the past, what they ride or even what your own point is. As long as you can call them kiddo or whatever condescending term you choose that day...you can walk away from your computer feeling powerful. You are taking all posts ever put on this board, forming an argument against them and directing your pent up frustration at me. That's cool. It's kind of cute actually. But, for the record, I've never claimed OEM anything. I've said the clones are not my thing and since I'm not being paid to protect a multimillion dollar Italian company...I don't care what three or four other posters do. But yes, I have said and still say that a tiny drop of epoxy on the race a carbon fiber frame that takes literally 20 seconds to remove is neither a big deal nor at all uncommon on frames costing a whole ton more.

That last sentence is the real reason you and I are banging heads. You made the claim in the other thread that such things NEVER happen in high end frames and I rebutted your claim with examples. Your ego was dented by someone on the internet disagreeing with you...and you've been looking for a spat every since. Well, I still disagree with you and we can continue to go around and around but pretty much everything else you said...is in response to other posters, not me. Perhaps you should take notes as you go. You are arguing with so many people at once, it appears you are overwhelmed and unable to keep your facts straight.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

It's pretty simple:
a frame labeled as a Pinarello but sold outside of Pinarello's distribution chain = Counterfeit.

A frame labeled and marketed as a different brand but making dubious claims is not a counterfeit - caveat emptor.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> You are so desperate to have an argument that you just can't stay focused. You seriously don't recall who it is you are insulting, what they've said in the past, what they ride or even what your own point is. As long as you can call them kiddo or whatever condescending term you choose that day...you can walk away from your computer feeling powerful. You are taking all posts ever put on this board, forming an argument against them and directing your pent up frustration at me. That's cool. It's kind of cute actually. But, for the record, I've never claimed OEM anything. I've said the clones are not my thing and since I'm not being paid to protect a multimillion dollar Italian company...I don't care what three or four other posters do. But yes, I have said and still say that a tiny drop of epoxy on the race a carbon fiber frame that takes literally 20 seconds to remove is neither a big deal nor at all uncommon on frames costing a whole ton more.
> 
> That last sentence is the real reason you and I are banging heads. You made the claim in the other thread that such things NEVER happen in high end frames and I rebutted your claim with examples. Your ego was dented by someone on the internet disagreeing with you...and you've been looking for a spat every since. Well, I still disagree with you and we can continue to go around and around but pretty much everything else you said...is in response to other posters, not me. Perhaps you should take notes as you go. You are arguing with so many people at once, it appears you are overwhelmed and unable to keep your facts straight.


My ego is dented? This from the guy calling the shop owner fat? HAHAHAHHAHA! Thanks for the laugh, I now need a new cup of coffee and a towel to clean up the mess.

You are STILL flat out wrong that taking a dremel or sand paper to a frame is typical, as referenced by quite a few people with a bit more experience than you. And you're still going to be called out when you make an idiot comment such as that "it's ok that these frames have flaws, they're only $400" or "there's no reports of failures, they must be perfectly fine." Seems you can't handle a little dose of being wrong, so you pull out the wounded vet card and ask for sympathy. Nice try, but it's not proving anything to me other than you're grasping at straws here.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

bmxhacksaw said:


> It's pretty simple:
> a frame labeled as a Pinarello but sold outside of Pinarello's distribution chain = Counterfeit.
> 
> A frame labeled and marketed as a different brand but making dubious claims is not a counterfeit - caveat emptor.


But that would imply ethics....


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

DiegoMontoya said:


> Exactly. I wish more people realized this. Apparently, people don't quite understand this concept. How many millionaire bike shop owners who got there selling bikes? Not too many. Anyone here see the price sheet Campy put out last year? Yeah. Dealer cost here>probikekit, slane, etc.at retail.
> 
> People, you can BUY stuff from overseas cheaper than the shops get them AT COST. *That's hurting the bike shops more than these frames from China.*


I agree with that. My issue with the Chinarellos (in full Pinarello garb) has nothing to do with business. It's pure ethics.

There is a movement just starting amongst some of the bike shop owners; we're going to start buying our kits (Shimano and Campy) from PBK or Wiggle. See how the distributors like that. With a one year no-hassle return guarantee, we can return any parts that don't sell. No distributor does that for us. Plus, PBK and Wiggle are cheaper than any of our distributors.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

bmxhacksaw said:


> It's pretty simple:
> a frame labeled as a Pinarello but sold outside of Pinarello's distribution chain = Counterfeit.
> 
> A frame labeled and marketed as a different brand but making dubious claims is not a counterfeit - caveat emptor.


THANK YOU!

BMX gets it in 2 simple sentences.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> I agree with that. My issue with the Chinarellos (in full Pinarello garb) has nothing to do with business. It's pure ethics.
> 
> There is a movement just starting amongst some of the bike shop owners; we're going to start buying our kits (Shimano and Campy) from PBK or Wiggle. See how the distributors like that. With a one year no-hassle return guarantee, we can return any parts that don't sell. No distributor does that for us. Plus, PBK and Wiggle are cheaper than any of our distributors.


I've always wondered why shop owners don't do that more often. 
Check out Mavic too, shafting their dealers by selling stuff on Bonktown. I won't even bother mentioning Reynolds. You'd have to be insane to buy a Reynolds product at retail.

On the Chinarellos, as I said earlier, buying one painted like a Pinarello is rather lame. Buying it and painting it yourself whatever you want, hey, whatever floats one's boat. Companies that outsource stuff to China to pocket some extra margins don't earn my sympathy.


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> My ego is dented? This from the guy calling the shop owner fat? HAHAHAHHAHA! Thanks for the laugh, I now need a new cup of coffee and a towel to clean up the mess.
> 
> You are STILL flat out wrong that taking a dremel or sand paper to a frame is typical, as referenced by quite a few people with a bit more experience than you. And you're still going to be called out when you make an idiot comment such as that "it's ok that these frames have flaws, they're only $400" or "there's no reports of failures, they must be perfectly fine." Seems you can't handle a little dose of being wrong, so you pull out the wounded vet card and ask for sympathy. Nice try, but it's not proving anything to me other than you're grasping at straws here.



I never called anyone fat. This isn't an emotional discussion for me as it is for you. He stated his weight and yearly miles total in another thread, then stated his expertise with his multiple carbon frames and I questioned that expertise based on his statement of weight and mileage. It simply doesn't lock up for me that a guy that far out of shape and riding that little would be an expert in how multiple carbon frames ride. That's not an insult directed at him, though you desperately want it to be. If a guy represents himself as an expert...I'm sorry, but his qualifications as such are going to be questioned when he goes on the offensive while claiming that expertise as a basis for his attack. 

We will have to disagree on the epoxy resin thing. You say I'm wrong, I say you're wrong...so be it. Epoxy on the races is not uncommon, nor is misalignment of the front derailleur hole and cable guide. All sorts of other examples were given in the other thread, but since they disagree with your Utopian view of expensive products....I'm sure you have conveniently forgotten those. The rest of your emotional diatribe I'll disregard, but if you would like to make this personal we can easily arrange that discussion in person.



DiegoMontoya said:


> On the Chinarellos, as I said earlier, buying one painted like a Pinarello is rather lame. Buying it and painting it yourself whatever you want, hey, whatever floats one's boat. *Companies that outsource stuff to China to pocket some extra margins don't earn my sympathy*.


Amen. +1


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ColoRoadie said:


> The rest of your emotional diatribe I'll disregard, but if you would like to make this personal we can easily arrange that discussion in person.


Threats of physical violence on the internet are beyond lame. /you fail

And you're opinion on carbon frames and their "assembly needs" has been misproven by a number of very well versed cyclists in this very thread, who have probably assembled more bikes than you ever will in your lifetime. Somehow, I believe them more than your 3rd hand sources.

And because they're outsourcing to China it's ok to undercut their pricing and buy it from the supplier instead? Tuh...morals must have disappeared long ago. Sad.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ColoRoadie said:


> I never called anyone fat. This isn't an emotional discussion for me as it is for you. He stated his weight and yearly miles total in another thread, *then stated his expertise* with his multiple carbon frames and I questioned that *expertise* based on his statement of weight and mileage. * It simply doesn't lock up for me that a guy that far out of shape and riding that little would be an expert in how multiple carbon frames ride.* That's not an insult directed at him, though you desperately want it to be.* If a guy represents himself as an expert*...I'm sorry, but his qualifications as such are going to be questioned when he goes on the offensive while claiming that expertise as a basis for his attack.
> 
> We will have to disagree on the epoxy resin thing. You say I'm wrong, I say you're wrong...so be it.* Epoxy on the races is not uncommon, nor is misalignment of the front derailleur hole and cable guide.* All sorts of other examples were given in the other thread, but since they disagree with your Utopian view of expensive products....I'm sure you have conveniently forgotten those. The rest of your emotional diatribe I'll disregard, but* if you would like to make this personal we can easily arrange that discussion in person.*
> 
> ...


I have never claimed "expertise" - I claimed EXPERIENCE. There is a difference.

You're stuck on that mileage from ONE YEAR of my life, aren't you? I think that managing to get 1000 miles in while opening and running a new business is pretty damn good.

The other years of 3000 miles+ per year just don't register with you, do they? A person can be overweight and still ride, you know.

I have built a LOT of bikes. Many high-end carbon bikes. It is NOT normal to find chunks of resin in the headtube/headset seat. It is NOT normal for the FD cabling to be "off". The exception is Cervelo. They had some issues with FD cable routing for a while. They got it straightened out, though. But others? Nope....not normal at all.

Lastly - is that a threat of physical violence against Rob? Interesting...


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

> The rest of your emotional diatribe I'll disregard, but if you would like to make this personal we can easily arrange that discussion in person.


Oh for the love of puppies. Posting vacation issued.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Coolhand said:


> *Oh for the love of puppies.*


That made me LOL.


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

LOL this is getting worse and worse and the two trolls who continue this huge argumentative thread over something that NOONE IS DISAGREEING WITH are protected by a heavy handed moderator who is just sitting here waiting with his finger on the ban button waiting for someone other than the two trolls to screw up. I think this has gone way too far. Why let this thread live when there is no one disagreeing with Platy about ethics, which has been said to be the reason this entire thread was started?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Also, if you can't be civil, either stay out of the thread or use the ignore feature to remove the posts of people you don't want to see- problem solved. 

And an open thanks to everyone on both sides of the debate that have managed to be civil while vigorously stating you views- much appreciated. :thumbsup: 

Keeping this open for now.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Vee said:


> LOL this is getting worse and worse and the two trolls who continue this huge argumentative thread over something that NOONE IS DISAGREEING WITH are protected by a heavy handed moderator who is just sitting here waiting with his finger on the ban button waiting for someone other than the two trolls to screw up. I think this has gone way too far. Why let this thread live when there is no one disagreeing with Platy about ethics, which has been said to be the reason this entire thread was started?


I do have to agree that this thread was about the ethics of counterfeit Pinarellos, yet no one seems to be discussing that. I don't care about Chinese carbon bikes. I care about counterfeits. That is what I wanted to discuss. 4 people in the other thread own them, so some people obviously feel that it is okay, for whatever reason. I wanted to discuss those reasons.

Is the fact that Pinarello charges a pretty massive premium for their frame a reasonable justification to buy a fake?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Vee said:


> LOL this is getting worse and worse and the two trolls who continue this huge argumentative thread over something that NOONE IS DISAGREEING WITH are protected by a heavy handed moderator who is just sitting here waiting with his finger on the ban button waiting for someone other than the two trolls to screw up. I think this has gone way too far. Why let this thread live when there is no one disagreeing with Platy about ethics, which has been said to be the reason this entire thread was started?


Not heavy handed- I'm _evil_, there's a difference.

Just like there is a difference between a troll and someone who disagrees with you. 

If you don't like the thread, don't open it. Don't like certain posters, add them to your ignore list *[click on their name to get the option in the light blue band]*. The reason the thread isn't locked is that the vast majority of the posters in it have provided thoughtful arguments for their position along with some useful information. If things get out of hand, I will lock it. But I prefer to believe in our posters here.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

performance is comparable to the genuine thing as i've heard from an owner of both unpainted and official pinarello painted frame.. so if it's custom painted as real thing to make the owner happy and make the owner ride more, i will not question their ethics. they most likely did the homework before buying with calculated risk/benefit. 

Besides, if these factories sell moulds with subpar performance which break like a piece of dried noodle, no one will buy them and you will hear about this all over the internet/news.


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## mobilesleepy (Nov 11, 2010)

It just occurred to me, why aren't these generic Carbon frames available at a Swapmeet? Surplus stores? Or a back alley bike shop? 

I'm seeing shops spring up selling complete builds of cheap generic e-bay fixie frames, why not the generic carbon ones? Do they run the risk of getting sued?


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

mobilesleepy said:


> It just occurred to me, why aren't these generic Carbon frames available at a Swapmeet? Surplus stores? Or a back alley bike shop?
> 
> I'm seeing shops spring up selling complete builds of cheap generic e-bay fixie frames, why not the generic carbon ones? Do they run the risk of getting sued?


they are everywhere online with worldwide customer base. everything is global now.


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## mobilesleepy (Nov 11, 2010)

Obviously. But if I take the bus to Downtown and hop on that anodized fixie and ride it around for a test, why can't I kick the tires on the generic carbon bike?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mobilesleepy said:


> Obviously. But if I take the bus to Downtown and hop on that anodized fixie and ride it around for a test, why can't I kick the tires on the generic carbon bike?


There probably is an element of liability in building a bike from a frameset that there is no known data on (no safety sheets, not certified safe by CPSC that I know of or even if CPSC needs to certify anything beyond helmets.) If something should happen and injury should occur, it seems to me that the shop who bought, built and sold the bike would be liable, especially since the manufacturer will be nigh on impossible to file suit against.

Platy, you have any legal insight on this being a shop owner?

Edited to add:


> The CPSC regulations, binding on all bicycles sold in the United States, set forth the performance required of many bicycle components and systems, including the frame, fork, wheels, pedals, brakes, reflectors, etc. The regulation test methods detailed the performance expected of each bicycle design, including the bicycle as a whole, once assembled according to the manufacturer’s instructions. The regulations also called for the bicycle to be provided with an owner’s manual and delineated the minimum content of that manual.
> 
> Regulations and Standards
> The difference between a regulation and a standard should be understood. CPSC regulations have the force of law and bicycles cannot be sold in America unless those regulations are met. Built into the regulatory procedures of the Consumer Product Safety Commission is the ability of that governmental body to impose the recall of products deemed unsafe. Indeed, products (not necessarily bicycles), are recalled on virtually a daily basis. Fines may also be imposed upon manufacturers for violations identified by the CPSC.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mobilesleepy said:


> Obviously. But if I take the bus to Downtown and hop on that anodized fixie and ride it around for a test, why can't I kick the tires on the generic carbon bike?


Here you go mobilesleepy, CPSC guidelines that pretty much relate that fixed gear bicycles are exempt from CPSC guidelines for bicycles:



> Track bicycles designed and intended for use in competition that have tubular tires, a single crank–to wheel ratio, and no freewheeling feature are exempt.


Although I suspect most fixies are sold with clinchers, it somewhat explains what you're asking about.

Here's the PDF for perusing:
http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/regsumbicycles.pdf


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## cokex (Dec 6, 2010)

HumblePie said:


> Yeah - Well - you are also a total dick. Thanks for banning me every possible way for simply putting PladyPuss in his place. Kiss my ass CoolHand. Blocking my IP address for stating an opinion. Every time you block I find a way in. You are just as much of a weak douche as him.


Coolhand so far seems to be an ok moderator, smacking around the new fish .. but something does seem a little extra fishy.. nobody can do anything about it so its safe to just try and follow some rules.

Post counts really do help your status in forums .. hence no bans here other than people with less than 50 posts..

-b


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## Jim311 (Sep 18, 2009)

Did you guys read about how Rolex, Gucci, and Coach almost went out of business because of all of those counterfeit versions being sold?



Yeah neither did I.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

mobilesleepy said:


> Obviously. But if I take the bus to Downtown and hop on that anodized fixie and ride it around for a test, why can't I kick the tires on the generic carbon bike?


hard to test un-built frames, but that is why there is the chinese frame thread to read reviews of the assembled frames. also other forum sites all over the internet have similar reviews of the same mould. you can choose to buy or not based on the reviews. Unless you want to buy the test frame itself just test similar frame locally (Pinarellos), then decide.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

vladvm said:


> hard to test un-built frames, but that is why there is the chinese frame thread to read reviews of the assembled frames. also other forum sites all over the internet have similar reviews of the same mould. you can choose to buy or not based on the reviews. Unless you want to buy the test frame itself just test similar frame locally (Pinarellos), then decide.


Not too hard to test unbuilt frames. It's done all the time for mechanical stress, etc.

According to CPSC, as I posted above, it's necessary: http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/regsumbicycles.pdf


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## cokex (Dec 6, 2010)

HumblePie said:


> Cokex - All I wanted to do was get online and read to stay educated and informed. I did not say anything to get permanently banned. Now with IP blocked - I am saying seriously. For that the moderator is a dick. Plain and simple.


could be true.. and dammit! wrong thread.. :-/

i'm back out of here.. 

-b


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## mobilesleepy (Nov 11, 2010)

vladvm said:


> hard to test un-built frames, but that is why there is the chinese frame thread to read reviews of the assembled frames. also other forum sites all over the internet have similar reviews of the same mould. you can choose to buy or not based on the reviews. Unless you want to buy the test frame itself just test similar frame locally (Pinarellos), then decide.



I'm very aware that the internet is flooded with these amazing bargain frames, I'm wondering why they're not bought it in here with the other generic products that are manufactured in China.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

cokex said:


> Coolhand so far seems to be an ok moderator, smacking around the new fish .. but something does seem a little extra fishy.. nobody can do anything about it so its safe to just try and follow some rules.
> 
> Post counts really do help your status in forums .. hence no bans here other than people with less than 50 posts..
> 
> -b


I've been suspended before, so the "post count" thing doesn't fly.

The issue is, Sparky here directly insulted me. I pseudo-insulted a "class" of people. ie: those who buy counterfeit Pinarellos. That, I assume, is the difference. If I told each individual that they were a tool, that would be a personal attack and I would be suspended or banned. There's a difference.


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## cokex (Dec 6, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> I've been suspended before, so the "post count" thing doesn't fly.
> 
> The issue is, Sparky here directly insulted me. I pseudo-insulted a "class" of people. ie: those who buy counterfeit Pinarellos. That, I assume, is the difference. If I told each individual that they were a tool, that would be a personal attack and I would be suspended or banned. There's a difference.


ok, i'm back but not going to argue anything .. 

I do take offense to your behavior, and take it a little personal. 

If you want to judge me for my purchase, go ahead, you have every right. But to question my ethics and morals ?? You have no idea who I am.. but I do know who you are since you and your bike shop are all over this place. 

You have given me the worst impression of a bike shop owner. I question your morals and ethics for judging people over the internet.. 

-b


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

mobilesleepy said:


> I'm very aware that the internet is flooded with these amazing bargain frames, I'm wondering why they're not bought it in here with the other generic products that are manufactured in China.


where is in here? I'm in Canada. I see them here.
To me any other "here" means the internet, and the frames are everywhere here.


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## chinarelloman (Dec 15, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> I mean seriously....who the hell is "Planet X"? Does anyone really consider them to be a real bike company? I know I don't.


I mean seriously....who the hell is "Covered Bridge Cyclery"? Does anyone really consider them to be a real bike shop? I know I don't.

You call yourself a "bike shop owner" and you don't know your bike brands... impressive.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> What hypocrisy? What "false statements"? Seriously.... what the hell are you talking about?


Ah, yes, next stop in the "I don't have an Intelligent response and I am a forum tough guy" playbook. Pretend like you didn't see what was already posted.

You are so predictable and laughable.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

cokex said:


> ok, i'm back but not going to argue anything ..
> 
> I do take offense to your behavior, and take it a little personal.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you're offended... You aren't one of the ones I was "judging".

Do not equate my actions/manner on RBR with my RL personality. We all have an online persona... In RL, yes, I am very opinionated. It's much easier to see though (in RL) that much that I say is sarcastic or sometimes self-deprecating.

I do feel very strongly about some things though, and fairness/ethical behaviour is a big one.

I spent 2 days considering whether it was ethical to mark up Clif bars that I bought on sale at Kroger. (See my original Bike Shop thread - it's documented there) In the end, I marked them up to $1.25 (I paid $1.00), which is still cheaper than most places sell them for. Hopefully this gives you an idea of how important ethics are to me.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

We laughed, we cried, we all learned valuable life lessons. Time to let this thread and topic rest for a while. Thanks for your understanding.


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