# Cross bike is just as fast as racing bike on commute



## canuckjgc

I only recently started bike commuting and my race bike had no eyelets for fenders or racks, and could not take bigger tires than 25. So I swapped it for a Cyclocross bike that has all those things and 35mm tires.

Results?

Identical commute time, virtually identical average speed. More comfortable, less wet.

If you think a fancy 18 pound race bike will get you to work quicker, it probably won't. Go comfortable, and you'll be there in the same time.

I suspect that only a couple of stoplights eliminates the difference in speed between the 2 bikes.

My commute is about 28 miles return.


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## leadout_kv

My 16lb road bike is just as comfortable if not more as any cyclocross bike. Why, because I was fit correctly to my bike. There arent too many cyclocross bikes that you can ride 100 miles comfortably on. Also, with the hills that are required for my commute it would be pretty tough to equal a commute time of a road bike.


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## Mike T.

canuckjgc said:


> I only recently started bike commuting and my race bike had no eyelets for fenders or racks, and could not take bigger tires than 25. So I swapped it for a Cyclocross bike that has all those things and 35mm tires.
> Results?
> Identical commute time, virtually identical average speed. More comfortable, less wet.
> If you think a fancy 18 pound race bike will get you to work quicker, it probably won't. Go comfortable, and you'll be there in the same time.
> I suspect that only a couple of stoplights eliminates the difference in speed between the 2 bikes.
> My commute is about 28 miles return.


Your findings will probably because of the variation on your commute stops. I used to do lots of road training on my CX bike (and my road bike too). The CX bike was equipped with file tread Challenge Grifo, 335g, 33mm clinchers. My training routes had no stops and it was easy to compare average speeds. I was consistently 1.5mph slower on the cx bike than when on my road bike. 

33mm, 335g cross tires and 'cross tubes at 45psi can't be as fast as 25mm, 210g Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX at 90/95psi.


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## canuckjgc

Unless your bike can take 35mm tires with full racks and fenders, there is no possible way it is just as comfortable as a cx bike on a long commute over rough pavement, gravel, etc., with skinny tires and gear on your back.



leadout_kv said:


> My 16lb road bike is just as comfortable if not more as any cyclocross bike. Why, because I was fit correctly to my bike. There arent too many cyclocross bikes that you can ride 100 miles comfortably on. Also, with the hills that are required for my commute it would be pretty tough to equal a commute time of a road bike.


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## PTJ

leadout_kv said:


> My 16lb road bike is just as comfortable if not more as any cyclocross bike. Why, because I was fit correctly to my bike. There arent too many cyclocross bikes that you can ride 100 miles comfortably on. Also, with the hills that are required for my commute it would be pretty tough to equal a commute time of a road bike.


I love my road bike. It's a Moots. I race and train on this bike in most conditions and road types. I also like a good cross bike when tougher conditions require it. Last year I did Dirty Kanza for the first time. 205 miles of gravel roads on a cross bike in 13 hours. I also did several 100 miles gravel rides preparing for that race. If you get the right bike fit the tire size and slight difference in geometry will not cause discomfort.


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## Steve B.

canuckjgc said:


> .
> 
> If you think a fancy 18 pound race bike will get you to work quicker, it probably won't. Go comfortable, and you'll be there in the same time.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Having commuted a 54 mile, RT route for about 20 years now, I can testify that my 17 lbs road bike is faster then my 30 lbs commuter/tourer. I can do the route in 1:40 typically on the lighter bike. yet take 1:50 to 2 hrs. on the heavier bike.
> 
> I have countless traffic lights, stop signs and turns, so accelerating the heavier bike takes more effort. If I put in the effort - same time !. Voila !. If I just ride at a tempo, I use less effort, am slower but am not hammered when I get into work. If I hit a west wind for 8 miles, the tourer is a slug.
> 
> Do I care which is faster ?. Nope. I learned 19 years ago that the faster I go, the more likely I am to have an accident. Not "pushing" on the commute is a survival trick I recommend to everyone starting a commute routine. Don't make it you hard day on the bike, save that for the group ride on the weekend. Don't race the yellow lights. Slow and maybe actually STOP for the stop signs (gasp), don't challenge cars, don't lane split or ride up the right side where cars can right hook you.
> 
> All this slows the commute but it's safer if slower.


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## leadout_kv

Steve B. said:


> canuckjgc said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> If you think a fancy 18 pound race bike will get you to work quicker, it probably won't. Go comfortable, and you'll be there in the same time.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Having commuted a 54 mile, RT route for about 20 years now, I can testify that my 17 lbs road bike is faster then my 30 lbs commuter/tourer. I can do the route in 1:40 typically on the lighter bike. yet take 1:50 to 2 hrs. on the heavier bike.
> 
> I have countless traffic lights, stop signs and turns, so accelerating the heavier bike takes more effort. If I put in the effort - same time !. Voila !. If I just ride at a tempo, I use less effort, am slower but am not hammered when I get into work. If I hit a west wind for 8 miles, the tourer is a slug.
> 
> Do I care which is faster ?. Nope. I learned 19 years ago that the faster I go, the more likely I am to have an accident. Not "pushing" on the commute is a survival trick I recommend to everyone starting a commute routine. Don't make it you hard day on the bike, save that for the group ride on the weekend. Don't race the yellow lights. Slow and maybe actually STOP for the stop signs (gasp), don't challenge cars, don't lane split or ride up the right side where cars can right hook you.
> 
> All this slows the commute but it's safer if slower.
> 
> 
> 
> This is excellent advice and honestly I'm not sure that I've ever heard this advice before.
Click to expand...


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## Steve B.

And I forgot to add to vary the route a bit if possible. Doing the same route day in, day out makes you complacent. Then you zone out and next thing you know "wham", you've been hit.


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## tarwheel2

I've got 4 different bikes that I commute on, depending on the weather and how I feel. My racing bike is definitely faster than my touring bike but not as comfy. My sport touring bikes hit the sweet spot, reasonably fast and light with mounts for fenders and racks. Riding different bikes takes some of the boredom and complacency out of commuting the same route regularly.


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## kjdhawkhill

my commute on my cross bike is faster. 

It allows a more direct route than the road bike. 

When riding the longer route on either bike I don't notice a real difference, wind has far more to do with speed than the weight of the bike. Both are comfortable on smooth pavement, but I'll never ride 23mm tires on gravel of any sort. 

Ride the one which makes you happy, and enjoy it.


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## DocRogers

I'm very comfortable on rough pavement or gravel on 23c road tires, but I ride my cross bike a lot because it's comfortable. It's pretty consistently 1 MPH slower, though.


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## joshhan

Interesting thread. I don't find it surprising that different people have experiences between their road and commuting bikes. 

I rode my road bike (<20 lb, 23mm tires, Ultegra, etc) in to work for a few months using a messenger style bag to haul all my crap in. It's a short commute and depending on which route, only 5 to 6 miles. No time to even warm up the legs!  I used to average 16 to 17 mph on these rides. I then got a Trek CrossRip and installed fenders, a rack and pannier bags to carry all my stuff. I now average 13 to 15 mph but it's a much more comfortable ride with nothing on my back. AND I can carry a ton more stuff.


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## Barteos

I average 18-19mph on a 50min commute and 2.30h training rides (country roads, not much interruption). My best commuting speeds are just under (must be a backpack...:wink5 20mph. I don't even have a road bike...
I ride a 26" 27lb franken commuter with drop bars and a pair of shaven 2.10 wide Racing Ralphs run tubeless at 20,30PSI.

View attachment 282561

View attachment 282562


Schwalbe Racing Ralph mountain bike tyre (shaven) as a road tyre… | Bartthebikeman

How do we build ourselves a fast road bike... that isn't a road bike? - Page 3

In the past the problem I've had with road bikes and skinny tyres is that I couldn't lower the pressure enough for the tyres to conform to the road surface and actually roll instead of bouncing all over the place and wasting some of my wattage. When I moved to bikes with wider clearance and run tyres like e.g. Kojak 700x35 or Jack Browns at 40-60PSI (tubeless) I was actually as fast as on GP4000s but MUCH MORE comfortable.

No matter whether you're running tyres like Corsas Evo or custom tubs made out of exotic spiders silk, if they lack volume and can't deflect enough, they're not going to be very fast in certain conditions.
Tyres aside, the top speed is dictated largely by aerodynamics of the rider anyway more than anything else. 

Fast and comfortable riding/commuting is about picking the right tool for the job and in many cases, especially for commuting, a CX bike or a tourer will be a better option than a typical road bike due to a more sensible (wider) tyre clearance.


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## Steve B.

Barteos said:


> In the past the problem I've had with road bikes and skinny tyres is that I couldn't lower the pressure enough for the tyres to conform to the road surface and actually roll instead of bouncing all over the place and wasting some of my wattage. When I moved to bikes with wider clearance and run tyres like e.g. Kojak 700x35 or Jack Browns at 40-60PSI (tubeless) I was actually as fast as on GP4000s but MUCH MORE comfortable.


Well, no this is not true.

If it were, the Pro's would not be racing on lightweight carbon machines with 23-25mm tires, they would have all gone 35mm decades ago. It is interesting that I'm reading that there's a move to 25mm's for some road surfaces conditions in the peloton, but there's a break even point with Pro's as to tire weight and rolling resistance.

Yes, a wider tire is more comfortable due to the lower tire pressure. More stable as well in sketchy conditions. But faster ?, no.


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## eddie m

I've commuted on my race bikes, and on 6 speeds and single speeds. My last commute was mostly downhill in the morning, uphill on the return. The single speed (with 28 mm tires) was always as fast in the morning as the race bike. Time trial bars probably would have made more difference than all those gears. The trip home was more about motivation than anything else. If I had more gears, I usually ended up in the lowest gear for the whole ride. With the single speed I always needed to put some effort in, and usually it was just as fast, even uphill, as the race bike. The 6 speed (with 28 mm tires) was always as fast as the race bike, as accurately as I could tell.
Commuting is not comparable to racing. The advantage of a race bike is that you can always do a maximum efficient effort. That's important if you need to close a gap or if you are barely hanging on to the peleton, but it's mostly irrelevant for commuting. The race bike would be faster if I wanted to do my morning commute like a 20 mile time trial, but I didn't do that very often. 
Add a rack and fenders and the fact that 28 mm tires ride more comfortably, don't flat very often and are easy to repair when they do, it's single speed for the win.

em


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## canuckjgc

Of course race bikes are faster in bike races than a cross bike.

My point was that - in my experience - commuting to work is no faster. I don't think pro riders stop at intersections, avoid getting doored, get stuck behind a guy walking his dog with a 20 ft leash, etc etc.

During a typical commute, if you think you'll get to work faster on a race bike, you likely won't, and it will be more uncomfortable than nice fat tires with big fenders.

The single speed sounds like a good machine as well.


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## Steve B.

canuckjgc said:


> Of course race bikes are faster in bike races than a cross bike.
> 
> My point was that - in my experience - commuting to work is no faster. I don't think pro riders stop at intersections, avoid getting doored, get stuck behind a guy walking his dog with a 20 ft leash, etc etc.
> 
> During a typical commute, if you think you'll get to work faster on a race bike, you likely won't, and it will be more uncomfortable than nice fat tires with big fenders.
> 
> The single speed sounds like a good machine as well.


My point of 3 weeks ago was that you can be just as fast on a 30 lbs commuter, racks, fenders, 35mm tires, etc... as compared to a 16 lbs racing bike with 23mm tires at 120psi, IF you are willing/able to put in more effort. 

This is just common sense. 

You can accelerate on racing bike from stop lights and signs with less effort. If you have hills, you use less effort. Is it more comfortable ?, typically not, but very bike and road condition dependent. Do want to be racing the racing bike in a commute, probably not, especially in an urban environment. 

But a bike with 35mm tires, *all things being equal*, as compared to a 23mm tire, is NOT going to be faster without more effort.


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## eddie m

Steve B. said:


> My point of 3 weeks ago was that you can be just as fast on a 30 lbs commuter, racks, fenders, 35mm tires, etc... as compared to a 16 lbs racing bike with 23mm tires at 120psi, IF you are willing/able to put in more effort.
> 
> This is just common sense.
> 
> You can accelerate on racing bike from stop lights and signs with less effort. If you have hills, you use less effort. Is it more comfortable ?, typically not, but very bike and road condition dependent. Do want to be racing the racing bike in a commute, probably not, especially in an urban environment.
> 
> But a bike with 35mm tires, *all things being equal*, as compared to a 23mm tire, is NOT going to be faster without more effort.


It's counterintutiive, but the truth is almost the opposite. The difference in weight and rolling reistance between arace bike and a touring bike are not that great, but the gearing is very different. Unless you maintan a high level of effort, the touring bike is almost as fast. A race bike has lots of closely spaced gears, so you can maintain your maximum efficient power all the time, but no one I know rides liek that all the time, not evene in races. When you are commuting, you can ride efficiently at half or three-quarters power in a gear that's 20 or 30% to high or too low for maximum power. That's about the same level of power I was comfortable with when I commuted. Ride with the same power, you go about the same speed. The race bike was faster if I put a maximum effort in for the whole ride, but I rarely did that, and NVER more than once a month. Even then, maybe a third of the time I ended up slower becasue I bonked. 
If you ride in a fast competitive group, you need a race bike. For riding alone, I prefer friction shifters and 28 mm tires all day long.

em


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## Steve B.

eddie m said:


> It's counterintutiive, but the truth is almost the opposite.
> 
> em


No it's not.

But obviously a bit of common sense can't overcome a firm belief, flawed as it is, so I give up. 

I suggest taking this argument about 35mm vs. 23mm tires, 30 lbs commuter bikes vs. 16 lbs racing bikes, over to one of the racing forums. Be prepared to get laughed off the forum.


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## dave2pvd

There are some occasions where a fatter tire is faster than a skinny one. If the surface is very poor, the 23mm, 100psi tire is going to make for a slow ride. Whereas the bike with 34mm CX tires at 50psi will float over broken pavement. Conversely, on a smooth surface, the CX shod wheels are harder to keep turning.

I rarely commute to work. When I do, the CX bike is what I ride. Atlanta has some pretty awful pavement.


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## Barteos

Steve B. said:


> Well, no this is not true.
> If it were, the Pro's would not be racing on lightweight carbon machines with 23-25mm tires, they would have all gone 35mm decades ago...


My (independent) opinions are based NOT on assumptions, beliefs or TdF TV transmissions but on CURRENT research and plenty of riding on various tyres from 23mm to 54mm at 20-120PSI, over years (inc. 3 years with a Powertap).

I understand that you may disagree with certain theories in general, but by overusing "No" and "true" and generally stating your opinions as facts you seem to be questioning other posters' knowledge and experience in the patronising manner. 
I'm afraid it's you who hold, as you described, firm beliefs not other poster(s) and making assumptions about tyres choices based on what the pros use clearly demonstrates that. 

If I'm telling you that my times on 35mm tyres run at 60/40PSI we practically the same or better as that of GP4000 at 100PSI or that Geax AKA Plumas 26x1.80 that I'm riding at the moment are faster than Grand Prix MTB 28mm at 80/60PSI then IT IS true whether you like it or not.
I seriously suggest you do your homework when it comes to the latest research on rolling resistance (mainly Bicycle Quarterly) get a power meter and do a bit of testing yourself (if you have enough tyre clearance). Then at least you can disagree on something that you actually understand.


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## Steve B.

Barteos said:


> My (independent) Then at least you can disagree on something that you actually understand.


OK, I'll admit that my own personal observations do not constitute fact. But I then need an explanation as to why I can ride *my" commute in about 15 minutes a faster time (25 miles) on a 17 lbs carbon bike with 23mm tires @120 psi, as compared to my 30 lbs steel tourer with 35mm tires @60 psi ?. 

And I also need an explanation as to where the break even point is with tire size. Obviously, rolling resistance is only part of the equation, with tire weight, bike weight etc... all being part of the experience. I believe what you are telling me in terms of resistance and tire size, just have to wonder then why a 5" fatty tire then is not faster and where the weight of the tire comes into play.


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## Barteos

Steve B. said:


> OK, I'll admit that my own personal observations do not constitute fact. But I then need an explanation as to why I can ride *my" commute in about 15 minutes a faster time (25 miles) on a 17 lbs carbon bike with 23mm tires @120 psi, as compared to my 30 lbs steel tourer with 35mm tires @60 psi ?.
> 
> And I also need an explanation as to where the break even point is with tire size. Obviously, rolling resistance is only part of the equation, with tire weight, bike weight etc... all being part of the experience. I believe what you are telling me in terms of resistance and tire size, just have to wonder then why a 5" fatty tire then is not faster and where the weight of the tire comes into play.


It's very unlikely that 15min difference would be down to tyres alone unless you were using exceptionally slow rolling 35mm (e.g. Marathon Plus) tyres and roads were very smooth which gave a 23mm tyres relative advantage. Also considering the weight difference between both bikes, quite a lot depends on amount of climbing involved. For the comparison to make sense position on both bikes would need to be identical, too (aerodynamics). 
I've never experienced such significant difference between any tyres while testing them *on the same bike*.

Skinny tyres are optimised for winning pro races not for the lowest possible rolling resistance. Races are typically won during a sprint, breakaway or final climb and speeds involved are much higher than that of an average non-competing rider. The balance of weight, rolling resistance and aerodynamics for a pro will be completely different than for an average (heavier and less flexible) rider/commuter often riding solo on worse road surfaces. So will be the aero/rr break even point.
If my 54mm wide shaven Racing Ralphs can roll as fast as 28mm (32mm) Grand Prix tyres (riding on drops) then it tells me that benefits of lower rr on bad surfaces are still significant and aero advantages of tyres alone are perhaps overrated at av. speeds of 18-20mph.

Again, it's all about picking the right tyres in the right width/volume and riding them at the right pressure for the given rider's weight, riding style, body position, road surface. Skinny tyres at ~100PSI may work for some people and offer no benefits (other than perceived ones) for other. They should NOT be considered as "the best compromise".


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## RJP Diver

Mike T. said:


> 33mm, 335g cross tires and 'cross tubes at 45psi can't be as fast as 25mm, 210g Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX at 90/95psi.


Of course they can, if you're a slow rider.


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## Steve B.

Barteos said:


> Again, it's all about picking the right tyres in the right width/volume and riding them at the right pressure for the given rider's weight, riding style, body position, road surface. .


I think my problem with the original concept that a "cross bike is faster (or as fast) as a road racing bike" kind of comment is that it's "generally" not really true, for a lot or reasons. Simply stating that wider tires are as fast as skinny tires because of rolling resistance, takes the whole situation out of context. Yes a bike with a wider tire can be faster on bad surface conditions. even the Pro's know that, they roll on as wide a tire as they can for Paris-Roubaix, but do most commutersroll on gravel path's typically ?. I don't think so. I would assume that the typical commuter is on reasonable quality asphalt in conditions where a fatter tire has no advantage. Part of the equation is going to have to include a significant addition in tire weight, as well as the generally heavier bike that is a given if it's going to have room for a 35mm tire. You are talking on the order of 13 lbs difference for my two bikes alone. I notice that weight difference in acceleration as well as sustained speed, no question about it and is the reason for the 15 minute time difference, for *my* route (which is mostly flat as BTW). If I were rolling out the door onto a flat paved path with no lights, few stop signs, not many turns, then OK, I can see that once you get that 30 lbs bike up to speed, it'll be about as quick as a skinny tired 17 lbs racer. But factor in all the environmental issues and a lighter bike, with lighter tires, no rear rack, no fenders, is going to be faster. My 18 years of commuting tells me that every time I get on the bike.


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## kjdhawkhill

I applaud you for commuting for 20 years. And thank you for the poised response. 

I don't _know_ that there is a typical commute, though. In the world of cycling for transportation ("commuting") most of the bikes end up being heavily overbuilt and with an upright position. At least that's what all of the manufacturers sell as a commuter. 

Your 25 mile commute on a reasonable quality asphalt has clearly shaped your assumptions, as my 21 mile commute (7 miles quality asphalt/concrete, 4-8 miles gravel road-or shoulder, 2 miles chipseal, 4-8 miles ol' beat-to-heck asphalt) has shaped mine. 

I like my 32s, and I would to ride 26 miles on pavement to ride a 23, but I've never really seen the need for anything bigger than a 32 (on MY commute). I suppose it is possible to ride the 23s on gravel, but considering I cross some pretty heavy railroad ballast in the middle of a gravel stretch, I would not look forward to it. And to top that off, I never know when the county is going to throw down some more loose on top of the road, make for some hairy down hills and highly taxing uphills.


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## vmps

I recently went from 32s @80psi to 37s @60 psi on 20 mile (each way) commute over mixed surfaces (some good pavement, some lousy pavement, some really bad MUP, some gravel). I'm faster on the 37s, and the ride quality is much better.


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## Barteos

As my 26" franken-road bike has masses of tyre clearance, I've just ordered a pair of cheap 700C rims, hubs and GP4000s 25mm tyres. I'll be testing them on the same routes and will post my findings here or if GP4000s turn out to be slower, as a new - "Road tyres suck!" :wink5: - thread and on my blog.
Watch this space.


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