# Anyone see what I saw at the finish. Not the crash.



## respro (Jun 21, 2012)

Cavendish's domination is over. Lead out train made just for him this year. Last year no. I didn't see him losing today due to his lead out collapsing. 2 years ago he would have cleaned Greipel's clock in the same race. The missile's comp is getting stiffer too. 
Bash away if you don't agree but that's the way I see it.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

You saw him with a leadout inside of 1km? I sure didn't. I saw him on Kittle's wheel and then the dude who crashed. I don't think the heart was in the lead out from OPQS today as Tony Martin was sitting up for the ITT tomorrow and Chavenel put in a pretty hard effort right before the finish. I find it funny that it is more of a story when someone beats Cavendish than when he wins. He sprinted very unsmart today. That is a fact, but he in no way has lost his speed.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

spookyload said:


> You saw him with a leadout inside of 1km? I sure didn't. I saw him on Kittle's wheel and then the dude who crashed. I don't think the heart was in the lead out from OPQS today as Tony Martin was sitting up for the ITT tomorrow and Chavenel put in a pretty hard effort right before the finish. I find it funny that it is more of a story when someone beats Cavendish than when he wins. He sprinted very unsmart today. That is a fact, but he in no way has lost his speed.


Actually its pretty clear he as sacrificed his tope end speed in an effort to get over the MTNs better in hopes of contending with Sagan for green esp withe the intermediate sprints weighted more. Clearly thats not working and you can see it because he is not winning the intermediate sprints either.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

spooky speaks the truth.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Griple is the fastest by far in top end speed in this tour.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Last year Cav won 3 stages w/ out a lead out

He has 1 so far. In 2 of the sprints this year he has been too far out of position and he and his team have burned too many matches getting him into position. He'd be better off playing Robby McEwen and grabbing Griepel's wheel. OPQS has failed thus far as far as positioning him to win. I think Chava and Martin were saving something for today


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

respro said:


> Cavendish's domination is over. Lead out train made just for him this year. Last year no. I didn't see him losing today due to his lead out collapsing. 2 years ago he would have cleaned Greipel's clock in the same race. The missile's comp is getting stiffer too.
> Bash away if you don't agree but that's the way I see it.


Who will we hate now?


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Would OPQS be signing Renshaw if they were satisfied with their train?


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

The Gorrilla is just a F'in beast. Kittel also. Look at their freaking legs. They are like the Dolph Lungren of Rocky. "I'll break you" Built by German scientists to win sprints.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

i saw a cav more determined to get over the mountains, and a stage with a diminished lead out with Tony Martin and Chavanel holding back. I also saw good on the road tactics by Argos, which neutralized sagan and cav.
I'd say cav still has all the speed he's ever had, but the most hotly contended sprint comptetition in the history of the tour, by far.
4 teams with no other objectives than sprint or green, and Orica. No split duties helping the yellow jersey, or helping out another guy win a transitional stage. Awesome stuff in my opinion.
I see 4 of the top sprinters, at their very best, doing very well. This tour is not over, and I see Cav, Sagan, Griepel and Kittel with multiple stages each. 
The fastest is sagan, although he didn't hit the line first, the day Greipel won. 
I think next year, they'll look back at the sprinting from this year, and enhance it, so the green jersey will be contested with more points on hand at the finish.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

IMHO, Cav is not at his best but he is still one of the very best sprinters. Others are coming along who will challenge him but (again IMHO) for this TdF he might be better off going freelance at the end of the stage (like he had to do much of last year) rather than rely on the OPQS train. For whatever reason, that just doesn't seem to be working.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

I thought that steegmans looked pretty strong, although not in a lead out sort of way. Cav should freelance, if they can't get the lead out right immediatly, and i'm sure he's licking his chops for next year with Renshaw, if the reports are true. I'm sure there will be more changes, with new guys coming one strong. Kristoff, Hutarovich, and the french guy that dominated the tour of belgium may come of age to pack the field with sprinters. I also don't think Kittel and Degenkolb can coexist. I also think that Goss is finished, and another aussie will come of age from nowhere.


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## gusmahler (Apr 7, 2012)

So much false information in this thread.

1) He didn't win 3 stages without a lead out last year. He won one stage without a lead out. Sky lead out for him on stages 18 and 20. 18 wasn't a classic lead out and Cav deserves a lot of credit for free-lancing the last 500 meters or so. But they wouldn't have caught the breakaway if it wasn't for the Wiggins and Bossen Hoggen leading Cav. Cav eventually lost Bossen Hoggen's wheel, though. Stage 20 was a pure Sky train, working as well as any of the HTC trains.

2) Cav DID have a lead out man on stage 10. I can't find a youtube video of it on quick notice. But around 500 m before the finish, Steegmans (Cav's leadout man) goes to the very front of the peloton. Cav was right behind him. And I don't mean near the front. He went to the very front of the peloton. Cav could have tucked in behind his wheel and gotten the proper lead out. Instead, he tried to fit in behind Griepel, but ended up behind Veelers instead.

I have absolutely no idea what Cav was thinking or why he would reject a proper lead out. But he did. 

OK, I found video: Controversal Finish to Stage 10 (2013/tour-de-france)

Screen caps:
In this first one, you can see OPQ making their move on the left. Steegman is in front of Cav.










In this next one, you see Steegmans at the very front of the Peloton, but Cav is trying to get on Griepel's wheel instead (and failing, because Veelers wouldn't give up that position. So instead of being behind Steegmans at 2nd wheel, he's behind Veelers at 5th wheel. As of this screen cap, Lotto has two guys in front of Griepel, but the first guy is about to peel off for Henderson to lead out. Steegmans then looks back, realizes that Cav isn't on his wheel and sits up.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

gusmahler said:


> I have absolutely no idea what Cav was thinking or why he would reject a proper lead out. But he did.


Cav stated in one of the post race interviews that Steegmans went too early and that Cav knew he couldn't last that distance behind Steegmans so he decided to grab another wheel.

(and Stage 18, 2012 is in no accepted sense a sprinter's lead out.)


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## Carverbiker (Mar 6, 2013)

I think they are havingtrouble with the lead out, but that should be fixed next year.

Renshaw To Ride For Omega Pharma-Quick-Step In 2014 | Cyclingnews.com


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

The Gorilla has a better train. The Gorilla is in great form. The Gorilla isn't afraid of Cav.
Cav will have to raise his game. Can he? Fascinating.


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## gusmahler (Apr 7, 2012)

albert owen said:


> The Gorilla has a better train. The Gorilla is in great form. The Gorilla isn't afraid of Cav.
> Cav will have to raise his game. Can he? Fascinating.


The Gorilla got crushed by Marcel Kittel, who now has more stage wins than anybody in this year's TdF.

But you're right that this is fascinating. After stage 5, I thought Cav was a lock for 5 stage wins.

After stage 6, I thought that the lesson learned was "you can't catch Griepel with a proper lead-out if you start two bike lengths behind him." Then Kittel did exactly that in stage 10.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

respro said:


> Cavendish's domination is over. Lead out train made just for him this year. Last year no. I didn't see him losing today due to his lead out collapsing. 2 years ago he would have cleaned Greipel's clock in the same race. The missile's comp is getting stiffer too.
> Bash away if you don't agree but that's the way I see it.


How many more stage wins will it take to prove you wrong? 

a) more than any other sprinter
b) two, even if someone else also gets two
c) two plus champs elysees
d) it's over...unless Cav wins the rest of the sprint stages


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Smoke screen. All else being equal, if he, Greipel, Sagan, Kittel and whoever else
are lined up 150 meters from the finish with no obstacle and all healthy, Cav gets
to the line first. This fact has not changed.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

*Stop the speculation here...*

...clearly, Specialized marketing is to blame for the manx missile sputters. Cav is looking for motorcycles to lead him in.

Brian Holm provided a picture of Gert Steegmans arse to Cav this morning and said “follow this”.

Better results are expected on today's stage 12.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Kittel is killing it.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

DonDenver said:


> ...clearly, Specialized marketing is to blame for the manx missile sputters. Cav is looking for motorcycles to lead him in.
> 
> Brian Holm provided a picture of Gert Steegmans arse to Cav this morning and said “follow this”.
> 
> Better results are expected on today's stage 12.


*UPDATE* Brian Holm admitted a mistake was made after the stage saying the picture he showed to Cav was not of Steegmans arse but rather Kittle's impossibly massive 190 lb 6'2" sprinters frame. Steegmans is currently in photo shoot sessions to ensure ample pictures are now available even though Holm's was heard saying; "it's over!"


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

Greipel, Sagan, and Kittel did not ride the Giro, right?

It could be hurting Cavendish in the Tour de France to have also ridden the Giro, but I see why he rode the Giro since it got him the points jersey in the only grand tour where he hadn't yet won the points.

Kittel is sprinting really well.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Cav can make as many excuses as he likes, but he has been riding sub-par during this TdF with a team committed to his success. Sagan only needs to fear Kittel at this point.

Cav will come back - he is still the world's best sprinter - but this TdF is a wash.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

LostViking said:


> Cav can make as many excuses as he likes,


What excuses? Cav said after today's stage that he was beaten fair and square. Doesn't sound like an excuse to me.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

coldash said:


> What excuses? Cav said after today's stage that he was beaten fair and square. Doesn't sound like an excuse to me.


Posted before that interview.

Excuses: The Bike and his lead-out.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

Non excuses

from twitter



> @MarkCavendish: Like I said, @marcelkittel's the new big thing. Simply better than me today. Congrats! Sorry I couldn't finish @opqscyclingteam's hard work.


Anyway, the sad news is it looks like EBH may have a broken collarbone. I really hope that it's not as serious as that.


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## Floppybike (Jun 11, 2013)

Marcel Kittel on FIRE---the engine is one Blog


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## gusmahler (Apr 7, 2012)

LostViking said:


> Sagan only needs to fear Kittel at this point.


What does this even mean? The points jersey competition is over now. Griepel and Cav needed Sagan to not finish the top 15 in each of the last three sprints in order to win. That didn't happen, so Sagan's a lock for green.

If you mean Sagan doesn't need to fear Griepel and Cav in sprint finishes--are you even watching? It's beyond clear that the three fastest sprinters in the TdF are Griepel, Cav, and Kittlel. They consistently beat Sagan on sprint stages. Sagan is going to win green because he can handle medium-mountain stages better than Griepel and Cav, not because he's faster than them (he's not that close really).


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

He was the fastest today, but Kittel has the ugliest sprint ever. He has the form of a monkey trying to ride a banana. Cavendish has one of the cleanest styles.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Relax! The guy is allowed to have an OFF day here and there.


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

foto said:


> He was the fastest today, but Kittel has the ugliest sprint ever. He has the form of a monkey trying to ride a banana. Cavendish has one of the cleanest styles.


You may not remember Abdoujaparov... He was called the "Tashkent Terror" for a reason.

Abdou makes look Kittel to look clean and refined and his sprinting style makes sound all the talk about Veelers moving two inches to each side of a line like plain out whinning.

I'm not saying he was clean or he made safe sprints... just bringing up reference of a real whacked off case of style and safety.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

gusmahler said:


> So much false information in this thread.
> 
> 1) He didn't win 3 stages without a lead out last year. He won one stage without a lead out. Sky lead out for him on stages 18 and 20. 18 wasn't a classic lead out and Cav deserves a lot of credit for free-lancing the last 500 meters or so. But they wouldn't have caught the breakaway if it wasn't for the Wiggins and Bossen Hoggen leading Cav. Cav eventually lost Bossen Hoggen's wheel, though. Stage 20 was a pure Sky train, working as well as any of the HTC trains.
> 
> ...


If Cav had to freelance the last 500 meters, he didn't have a lead out

watch some footage of HTC (or Saeco) to understand what an actual lead out is.
Watch the Hincapie captained HTC leadout on the Champs. Hell Cav's leadout man took second. 
There has been no team the last 2 years with a classic sprint lead out


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## gusmahler (Apr 7, 2012)

atpjunkie said:


> If Cav had to freelance the last 500 meters, he didn't have a lead out


The fact that he rejected the lead out doesn't mean he didn't have a lead out.

BTW, I hope today's finish puts to rest the laughable contention that Sagan is faster than Cav. He's not even close.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

*It's much more than "fast"*



gusmahler said:


> BTW, I hope today's finish puts to rest the laughable contention that Sagan is faster than Cav. He's not even close.


You're overdoing the "Cav is faster than Sagan posts". That's just too surface level, no depth. 

First..."Faster" is not the discernment here, not even close. Who's fast, where fast...at 6%, TT, sprint where? If you're talking about a flat head to head sprint from 1000 m out, 500 m? Actually, I think they're close but I'd give the nod to Cav due to his profile to wind.

The real depth of understanding is acknowledgement of how bright and experienced Cav is with "racing"...and in this particular case...over that of Sagan. It's NOT a question of speed, but rather experience getting to the line. THAT is how Cav is the master with his 25th at the TdF.

Now, if you'd once say "Cav has given Sag a lesson and will continue doing so for the foreseeable season" I'm with ya.

Frankly, the moment I saw Sag look back at Cav before with windup, I knew the wagon was coming for Peter...he had no chance. Sagan confirms this as he rotates his head past 45 looking back and soft pedals to "figure" Cav's line and speed. Man...it was all over at that moment. Cooked, baked, done. 

There are a couple of video segments that you can notice Cav calmly breathing out, setting up, right hand knocking into his sprint gear (I've been replaying it like some star-struck fan). It was f'ng professionally awesome. It gave me an impression of stone cold lock down confidence that comes with experience; that "I've been here many times" persona. Sagan simply does not have what Cav has at this time (reminded me when Fabian schooled Sagan on a classics race this season) Cav is extraordinary as a total package of mental and physical assets. Sagan is still working on the mental strengths.

The best post interview I've seen to date was Cav's today. He had me feeling I rode that race he was so excited. Great stuff and great surprise of a race today :thumbsup:


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