# Road Tubeless Abandoned!



## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

By me anyway!
I rode a set for 8 months and probably got 1,000 - 1,500 miles on them before having a flat. And I did not use sealant.
It took me about 20 minutes to fix the flat by putting in a tube. On a normal tire that would be about 5 minutes.
After several weeks I decided to put a new tubeless tire, It was just WAY too much trouble and then I never got the thing seated. I think it was a valve issue.
The next day I had the thought - why am I using road tubeless?
I honestly couldn't feel any improvement over my ProRace 3 tires with latex tubes.
So that's it. Not dealing with the hassle.
Sure, try to convince me you can mount or remove one of these without any tools. I don't care. I can't. Even with a fancy Koolstop Tire Bead Jack it was still a b(*^ch. 
So that's it. No more road tubeless for me.
Thanks for reading my rant.


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## Pitts Pilot (Dec 5, 2011)

You are a wise man. I think too many of us get caught up in doing things for the wrong reason. It is smart to do what works best for you. The differences we're talking about in most cases are less than a percentage point and as you mention are often imperceptible. Ironically, I just decided the same thing about the latex tubes you are moving back to.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Pitts Pilot said:


> ..... Ironically, I just decided the same thing about the latex tubes you are moving back to.


OK - I'll confess that I could not tell if I were riding latex or butyl tubes in a blind test.

However, I do know that the small wires we pick up on the road will make a butyl tube leak enough for a roadside repair while latex will not have a noticable loss while on the ride. Actually not later either as latex loses a little air anyway.

And I can't admit to my buddies that I was ever wrong about latex, right?


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## Crawf (Oct 21, 2010)

I can't comprehend why you wouldn't use sealant.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Crawf said:


> I can't comprehend why you wouldn't use sealant.


A combination of weight and the mess if the cut was too big.

Can't imagine being out on the road trying to boot a big cut and putting a tube in with sealant all over the place.

Weight not a huge issue but 30 gms here and there on rotating parts just adds up.

If I perceived the ride to be even marginally better, I would have started using sealant after my flat.

I just couldn't feel it.


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## sneakyracer (Dec 1, 2007)

I have had a VERY positive experience with roadtubeless (Fulcrum Racing 1 2-way fit wheels and Hutchinson Fusion 3 tires). I have not had a flat in the few months I have used it and have noticed improvements in ride and grip.

I do live and ride on an island with crappy roads with many places that have some gravel, debris, glass etc. It also rains 80-100 inches a year or about 1 out of 2-4 days. Not a good place for tires.

The net result has been that I forget about the tires and just ride. Before I had cut and flatted tires with enough frequency as to make it costly and annoying.

If you ride on mostly very good roads with nice weather then road tubeless doesnt make as much sense.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*save wgt with tubular, then load it with sealant?*

save wgt with tubular, then load it with sealant?

the tubular tires have to be stretched in advance. it is almost impossible to pull one out of the box while on the road and change a flat. i feel for anyone in that position.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*wait - like a solid tire?*

wait - like a solid tire?


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

PJay - Some quick definitions, as you seem confused:
Tubular - aka sew-up. Tube encased in the tire and then the whole package is glued to the rim
Clincher - Tube and u-shaped tire as separate pieces. Tire hooks to rim via a bead.
Tubeless - pretty much the same as clincher tire (u-shaped, hooks to rim via a bead), but no tube required. Tire and rim create an air-tight system.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I think if you're on good road, not racing, then regular clincher tires with lightweight butyl tubes offer the best combination of convenience & cost. 

Is latex is more costly than a thin butyl tube?

BTW, I hear a lot of people say tubeless tires give more grip. Really? And if so, I wonder if these same people actually corner at the limit of traction that such grip would make a difference?? Just going by my own eperience, I'm riding Michelin Pro3 up front and GP4000 outback, and some of the sweepers I take it at almost 40 mph, and I know most guys do not ride as fast as I do. But yet when come on RBR, a lot of guys like to highlight "better grip" as if they're actually using it when it comes to tubeless. It's like saying a Ferrari offers more power and speed than a Camry.. yet all you do is drive in congested traffic. A Ferrari ain't gonna be faster than a Camry in this situation. Same with most riders. Most riders tend to take it easy on the corners (a wise decision!), yet they like to mention the "grip" factor of tubeless. Grip factor does not come into play until you start to hit the limit of traction, until then, tubeless grip ain't doing you much good.


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## Rad Fondo (Feb 7, 2012)

I rode road tubeless for about a year. In that time I used many tire combinations including clinchers with tubes. There is a noticeable difference riding tubeless with proper pressure. I typically rode at 95psi. 

Main issues were pain in the rear installation, flat repair was troublesome and I had issues with tire wear.

Switched back to clinchers and sold my wheels. My thumbs thank me...


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## sp3000 (Jul 10, 2007)

On my mountain bikes tubeless was a god send, but I run 35psi over very rough ground, plenty of little thorns etc the sealant does a great job, you can literally see it working on some rides. At low pressure and with substantial hits pinch flats are a thing of the past. I just don't see the worth on road when pressures are much much higher, I run 110psi. By the time you run a nice light tyre with a nice light tube you have a lighter setup that doesn't have the mess/fuss issues of tubeless.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

sp3000 said:


> On my mountain bikes tubeless was a god send, but I run 35psi over very rough ground, plenty of little thorns etc the sealant does a great job, you can literally see it working on some rides. At low pressure and with substantial hits pinch flats are a thing of the past. I just don't see the worth on road when pressures are much much higher, I run 110psi. By the time you run a nice light tyre with a nice light tube you have a lighter setup that doesn't have the mess/fuss issues of tubeless.


Running tubeless at 110 psi is counter to the advantage of tubeless, which is the ability to run at low pressure. So you are right that it's not worth it if you intend to run it at 110 psi. I run mine at 90 psi.


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## dougrocky123 (Apr 12, 2006)

*Dumped tubeless also*

Had the same issues as the OP. Mounting,leak down, gumming up and corrosion of wheel interior by the sealent. Sold one set and switched other to tubes. Much easier for me!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I was considering the tubeless experiment, but after reading some of the posts dealing with the hassles, I think I'll hold off for now.


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## samh (May 5, 2004)

merlinanna, totally agree with you, its more trouble than its worth. Trying to do a road tubeless conversion. Previously used tubeless wheels. difficulty seating and tires wear quick and have resistance.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> I was considering the tubeless experiment, but after reading some of the posts dealing with the hassles, I think I'll hold off for now.


All the same hassles applied to mountain bikes not too many years ago. What remains to be seen is whether the tire selection increases, Shimano figures out how to anodize their rims so they don't react with the sealant, and other niggles. I'm waiting for a 2-way Campy Zonda wheel set now that I'll set up tubeless for commuting. I doubt I'll make the change on my 'race' bike just yet though.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

Sounds like switching to THIS new technology is not a slam dunk. My clincher rims all work just fine. Think I'll stick with 'em for now.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Kristatos said:


> All the same hassles applied to mountain bikes not too many years ago. What remains to be seen is whether the tire selection increases, Shimano figures out how to anodize their rims so they don't react with the sealant, and other niggles. I'm waiting for a 2-way Campy Zonda wheel set now that I'll set up tubeless for commuting. I doubt I'll make the change on my 'race' bike just yet though.


I've been running tubeless in my mtb all-mountain bike, and tubeless has not enable me to do anything I was not capable of with regular tubes, and tubeless also does not "save me" on the trail either. I still carry a tube with me when I ride.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

MerlinAma said:


> A combination of weight and the mess if the cut was too big.
> 
> Can't imagine being out on the road trying to boot a big cut and putting a tube in with sealant all over the place.
> 
> ...


If you're going to go tubeless, you must use sealant. There is no greater feeling than springing a leak on a group ride and watching it seal up without stopping. It confuses the heck out of your riding buddies.

That said, I agree with you. I did road tubeless last summer and didn't find it to be worth it. I can't tell the difference in ride or grip and the fewer flats were offset by a tire that wore too quickly.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

I have big trouble with corrosion on my Dura-Ace C24 TL:http://http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/stans-damage-my-aluminum-rims-271614.html

IMO, tubeless does not get the attention it should in the road bike industry because there is no interest from wheel/tire manufacturer to make the concept work...just think, for a racer like me there is only one real tire option(Hutshinson Atom TL) and Tubeless have been around for years...like always, the MTB scene is ahead of us...


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> I've been running tubeless in my mtb all-mountain bike, and tubeless has not enable me to do anything I was not capable of with regular tubes, and tubeless also does not "save me" on the trail either. I still carry a tube with me when I ride.


If it works for you great...I wouldn't go back to running tubes in my MTB...ever. I also carry one and have yet to use it since making the switch a year ago. I don't think anyone ever though tubeless would enable them to "do anything" they couldn't already do except avoid pinch flats and run lower PSI in the tires.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

orange_julius said:


> Running tubeless at 110 psi is counter to the advantage of tubeless, which is the ability to run at low pressure. So you are right that it's not worth it if you intend to run it at 110 psi. I run mine at 90 psi.


Which is where I run my tubed clinchers. 

If the advantage is to avoid snakebites, I don't care. It's been years that there's been something pinch-flat worthy on the road that I couldn't either go around or hop over. And I've misjudged quite a few things and taken some hard hits, but nothing. 

Oh, and I'm 185, so not exactly a lightweight.

If there's another advantage, it's to use sealant to avoid some proportion of flats. Fair enough. For my riding, not worth the hassles - but I can respect that others can come to the opposite conclusion.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I would never use tubeless without sealant. Sorta like trying to climb 5000 vert without a good breakfast. 
Sounds to me like you should try sealant before you give up on tubeless all together.


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## farva (Jun 24, 2005)

After many hours of tinkering with tubeless setups I've come to the conclusion you need to use rims that do not have inside spoke nipple holes (like ksyrium, fulcrum, shimano etc). Working the iron like bead of tubeless tires into place without compromising the sealing tape is no easy task (at least with all the rims I tried). Just my .02


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I would never use tubeless without sealant. Sorta like trying to climb 5000 vert without a good breakfast.
> Sounds to me like you should try sealant before you give up on tubeless all together.


As always, much of the decision process depends on your individual riding and related expectations from your bike/tires/wheels etc.

My perspective is purely from a road point of view.

I want lightweight high performance tires, but not to the point of race day only tires.

I always glove off my tires after riding through glass so if I do get a flat from a glass cut, it is usually large enough to require booting the tire. Latex tubes pretty much solve the flat issue from small steel wires. In short, flats aren't a big issue for me, and sealant wouldn't solve the "big cut" issue anyway.

I run my tire/tube wheels at 90 lbs front, 95 lbs rear, and don't have snakebite issues. In fact I could get away with 85/90 but my rear wheel then feels a little squishy. 

All the conversation here has basically validated my decision, although I certainly appreciate reasons why others would appreciate the tubeless technology.


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

cyclesport45 said:


> Sounds like switching to THIS new technology is not a slam dunk. My clincher rims all work just fine. Think I'll stick with 'em for now.


tubeless is not a new technology. I remember having tried a set of wolber tubeless tires back in the early 90's.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I really don't see what the big deal is and have read enough of these threads to know I won't convince anyone. To me tubeless is a simpler concept. Just a wheel and a tire. Put the tire on and ride. When it came time for me to buy new wheels a couple of years ago I saw I could get Road Tubeless and still have the option to run regular clinchers and tubes. I figured great. Bought my Ultegra wheelset (has no spokes holes or rim tape) mounted my Atom Comp tubeless tires and haven't had a problem. Works great. I am sorry the OP had to spend an additinal 15 minutes over an 8 month period changing a tire. I know with clinchers I had to spend way more time than that driving to my LBS to buy more tubes because my last tube tore at the valve stem right before my ride.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Brazos said:


> .........know I won't convince anyone. ............... Put the tire on and ride. ..........


But that, my friend, is the issue. Tubeless tires, for me, are a ***** to put on. Even with a Kool Stop tire bead jack. I honestly don't know how anyone could ever put one on by hand with no tools.

If you can do it with no problem, that's great. But my hunch is you are 1 of 100 (or 1,000).


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

Just use levers for that last little bit. Shimano may say no but everybody does it. That's what levers are for.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

I now have 4 different tubeless wheel set-ups. Zonda & Shamal 2way. Currently running without sealant. Easton Ascent2 using Stans. Campy Proton using protect air. Fusion 2 and now Fusion 3. One flat in four years on a worn out Fusion2.

I do use levers for the last little bit to get the tire on. I loved the Michelin Pro 2's & 3, but the Fusions ride even better. Hucthinson does make a harder longer lasting tire but i would rather a softer ride.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

So, if I understand your reasons, the main problem is that the tires were hard to mount, right? That's a shame. Some tire/rim combinations will just end up being tough. I used to run old (late 90's) campy rims with continental tires. Good Gosh!!

What rim and tire combination was such a bear to mount? 

Also, I'm surprised that you didn't notice a great improvement in ride quality. What PSI? (sorry if I missed these details in the thread)

If you decided to not ride sealant, and the ride quality wasn't noticeably better, then I can understand abandoning the concept.


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## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

Been using the Hutchinson Intensive at 90 psi weighing 170 lbs. I couldn't be happier. The switch improved the ride and I don't know what a flat is (knocking on wood). I believe they have 2000 miles on them.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

natedg200202 said:


> So, if I understand your reasons, the main problem is that the tires were hard to mount, right? That's a shame. Some tire/rim combinations will just end up being tough..........


Fusion 3 tires on Dura,Ace wheels designed for tubeless tires.

My tire pressure on tubeless was only about 5 lbs less than I ride on tire/tube set.


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## sypher (Oct 26, 2009)

I've been running a Fusion 2 (front) and Intensive (rear) at 85 psi all winter on Hed Belgium rims and I couldn't be happier. I weigh 160, and always use sealant. The ride is so smooth...


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## mttklmrr1 (May 13, 2011)

I have been using Stan's Alpha Comp wheelset with Fusion 3 for over a year. I'm using Stan's sealant. I haven't gotten a flat yet. I ususally get 2 to 3 flats per year but not with this setup yet. I'm 165 lbs and run 85/90 psi. The ride is much smoother and don't get sore wrists as I used to after riding choppy roads. I'm glad I made the switch to tubeless and I don't think the roads around here will get better.


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## ddimick (Aug 9, 2011)

MerlinAma said:


> But that, my friend, is the issue. Tubeless tires, for me, are a ***** to put on. Even with a Kool Stop tire bead jack. I honestly don't know how anyone could ever put one on by hand with no tools.
> 
> If you can do it with no problem, that's great. But my hunch is you are 1 of 100 (or 1,000).


Agreed about putting these things on by hand. Piece of cake with the bead jack, though. About the same level of effort using either Fusion 3s or IRC Roadlites on Fulcrum 2-way wheels.

I'm glad I learned how to do it with levers at home, because the first time I mounted tubeless I cussed up a storm until I got the hang of it. I would probably have been pissed off enough to toss it if I were learning on the side of the road, too.


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## mttklmrr1 (May 13, 2011)

I was able to put Fusion 3 tires on the Stan's rims with no levers. The trick is to put the tire bead in the center of the rim which is the shallowest point of the rim. Tuck the tire from both sides until you meet on the other side and it is enough to get the bead to pop on the rim. I think it will be more pain to get them off than on.


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## Josh8 (Nov 12, 2009)

I know this is old but I wanted to share my experience as well. Got some Bontrager R4 Tubeless tires (made by hutchison) Mounted them on Bontrager RXL wheels with 21mm Stans tape and Stans sealant. They were stupid easy to mount and get to seat. Haven't ridden it yet but I have had clinchers that were harder to mount.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

I also gave up on this. Seems like such a good idea until you try and mount those GD tires. I'm gratified to see it's not just me.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

sypher said:


> I've been running a Fusion 2 (front) and Intensive (rear) at 85 psi all winter on Hed Belgium rims and I couldn't be happier. I weigh 160, and always use sealant. The ride is so smooth...


But that would be an appropriate pressure for regular tires at your weight for those rims, too. And with traditional tires being more supple than the tubeless ones, you'd have an even better ride.

Now, whether the alleged reduced flats as compared to the relative ease of changing out a tube are worth it, the convenience of sealant (when it works) vs the mess and bother (when it doesn't) - that's an individual decision.


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## crank1979 (Sep 9, 2007)

Hiro11 said:


> I also gave up on this. Seems like such a good idea until you try and mount those GD tires. I'm gratified to see it's not just me.


Probably the best thing I've done is watch this video to help perfect my tyre mounting technique. They aren't tubeless tyres in the video but it all work the same.


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## Zachariah (Jan 29, 2009)

How right you are, OP. Latex tubes provides that supple road feel, that is only rivaled by full tubulars. I seriously thought about drinking the road tubeless Kool-Aid...but I think I'll pass. 

On my MTB - tubeless is the only way I roll...but we're talking about running 2/3s less pressure too.


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## dudigrinfeld (Aug 18, 2010)

I used for long time dura ace 7850 SL with Hanchinton Atom and the recommended sealant. I never had any flat and I think I road at least 1000 miles with it. I have sold hem to get another set of wheels bit I can tell it was great choice for me.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

I race clinchers and standard tires. I ride clinchers and standard tires.

I'm completely convinced that some things in the cycling world are great for the professionals in the sport but horrible, horrible choices for the amateur and recreational rider.


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## hotwheels22 (Mar 7, 2012)

i just figured out how to seat the tubes on my own. lol.


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## hotwheels22 (Mar 7, 2012)

thanks for the post. i need a new wheelset and having been eyeing the tubeless...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MaddSkillz said:


> I race clinchers and standard tires. I ride clinchers and standard tires.
> 
> I'm completely convinced that some things in the cycling world are great for the professionals in the sport but horrible, horrible choices for the amateur and recreational rider.


yep agreed.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I have a question for those running tubeless

1) why would you lower the psi? Isn't one of the claimed to fame of tubeless is that you can run the same psi as a regular clincher tire and have a more supple ride? If you had to lower the psi to get a supple ride, well then couldn't you have done this with a regular clincher?

2) for those who say they are able to mount their tubeless tires onto the rims with ease, don't you worry that the tires also might pop out of the bead should you corner hard on low psi?? I would.


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## dudigrinfeld (Aug 18, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> I have a question for those running tubeless
> 
> 1) why would you lower the psi? Isn't one of the claimed to fame of tubeless is that you can run the same psi as a regular clincher tire and have a more supple ride? If you had to lower the psi to get a supple ride, well then couldn't you have done this with a regular clincher?
> 
> 2) for those who say they are able to mount their tubeless tires onto the rims with ease, don't you worry that the tires also might pop out of the bead should you corner hard on low psi?? I would.


1 with regular clincher lower psi you risk a puncture by pinching the inner tube cause there is more "space" inside your tyre. Also higher rolling resistance as a result of low pressure.


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## dudigrinfeld (Aug 18, 2010)

2. Sometimes what gets in fast doesn't come out so fast...! For a baby it takes 9 months...


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## leo santos (Nov 30, 2011)

i feel stupid..
had to change my rear atom that was quite used for a new fusion on my DA 7900 24, Im new to cyling so it would be my first change, I just read about it here... whell, I couldnt even get it off. Im not weak or strong, just regular, but obviously lack skills.
anyway, took it to the closest bike shop, run by a guy that is there for at least 15 years, mostly fixes MTB, so he is no stranger to tubeless - though hed never changed a road tubeless - and he had a terrible time either. then after some minutes to put it on, we couldnt fill it, maybe the valve was broken or missing something (it was with a tube on before). so again he took it off and tried to put back on with my latex tube this time. bad call, it was even harder to put it on and we both thought we (I was helping him at this point) would end up puncturing the fragile latex with his metal or even with my plastic park tool lever.. then he put a regular butyl tube (im fine with using tube for moment since my sealant will take time to ship) and this time things worked a little easier, but man, Im tired just to write this story! honestly, even after I seen it done once I will take forever to change them by myself.. so I hope it doesnt flat ever again lol


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

leo santos said:


> i feel stupid..
> had to change my rear atom that was quite used for a new fusion on my DA 7900 24, Im new to cyling so it would be my first change, I just read about it here... whell, I couldnt even get it off. Im not weak or strong, just regular, but obviously lack skills.
> anyway, took it to the closest bike shop, run by a guy that is there for at least 15 years, mostly fixes MTB, so he is no stranger to tubeless - though hed never changed a road tubeless - and he had a terrible time either. then after some minutes to put it on, we couldnt fill it, maybe the valve was broken or missing something (it was with a tube on before). so again he took it off and tried to put back on with my latex tube this time. bad call, it was even harder to put it on and we both thought we (I was helping him at this point) would end up puncturing the fragile latex with his metal or even with my plastic park tool lever.. then he put a regular butyl tube (im fine with using tube for moment since my sealant will take time to ship) and this time things worked a little easier, but man, Im tired just to write this story! honestly, even after I seen it done once I will take forever to change them by myself.. so I hope it doesnt flat ever again lol


The shop guys at PricePoint can install a tubeless in less than a minute ...
Shop Challenge: Shimano Tubeless vs Campy Tubeless - YouTube

The trick that almost everybody misses is that you should pinch the opposite side's tire (or tire/tube) onto the center of the well of the rim (which runs deep), to give extra space for pushing the other side's tire (or tire/tube) onto the rim. 

I had had to help a friend install a tubed Michelin Pro tire onto a Campa Zonda wheelset a few weeks ago. He had busted 3 tire levers trying. I did it in under a minute total, he was flummoxed. Seriously, the trick is what I said above.


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## dudigrinfeld (Aug 18, 2010)

That's very true. When I tried to mount my atom on the dura ace 7850 SL I worked so hard and took me lot of time I couldn't inflating it. Cause I was putting the edge of the tyre bid inside the side of the rim in stand of pushing them into the central tunnel that in the middle of the rim. Once I pushed the tyre bids into in it inflated (with floor pump) instantly.


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## A.T. (May 12, 2011)

Use "KY" on the rim and tire.


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