# Real Pinarello Dogma vs. Fake Dogma



## JohnJGreenfield

Is there anyone who has ridden the 'real thing' and also one of the China copy Dogma frames and can comment on the difference? Is it a very different ride? I know they can look almost identical, but so does a chocolate and a **** sandwich until you taste it. Really curious to know.


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## martinrjensen

I hope someone chimes in with the answer. I get so tired of people slamming something on technical grounds that they haven't even tried. I understand the philosophical argument but like you am really curious as to the physical difference in ride.


JohnJGreenfield said:


> Is there anyone who has ridden the 'real thing' and also one of the China copy Dogma frames and can comment on the difference? Is it a very different ride? I know they can look almost identical, but so does a chocolate and a **** sandwich until you taste it. Really curious to know.


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## darwinosx

JohnJGreenfield said:


> Is there anyone who has ridden the 'real thing' and also one of the China copy Dogma frames and can comment on the difference? Is it a very different ride? I know they can look almost identical, but so does a chocolate and a **** sandwich until you taste it. Really curious to know.


Real Pinarello's are made in China too. The Italian govt allows a very loose definition of Made in Italy on purpose. They don't mind if it deceives buyers. Its their intent. So any minor amount of finishing work, painting etc, qualified the product for a made in Italy label.


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## robdamanii

darwinosx said:


> Real Pinarello's are made in China too. The Italian govt allows a very loose definition of Made in Italy on purpose. They don't mind if it deceives buyers. Its their intent. So any minor amount of finishing work, painting etc, qualified the product for a made in Italy label.


Taiwan is not china.

Get your facts straight.


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## PRB

darwinosx said:


> The Italian govt allows a very loose definition of Made in Italy on purpose. They don't mind if it deceives buyers. Its their intent.


 It's not the Italian Govt which formulated those rules, it's the EU. From the EU rules:


> When two or more countries are involved in the production of a good, the origin of the good must be determined in accordance with Article 24 of Council Regulation No 2913/92 (CC).
> Articles 24 CC states: "Goods whose production involved more than one country shall be deemed to originate in the country where they underwent their last, substantial, economically justified processing or working in an undertaking equipped for that purpose and resulting in the manufacture of a new product or representing an important stage of manufacture".


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## svard75

robdamanii said:


> Taiwan is not china.
> 
> Get your facts straight.


Although you're right I've been told by a source that more of the large name companies are moving their operations to China. Taiwan's manufacturing and QC is superior, however the cost to manufacture is growing. The much cheaper labor in China is very enticing.


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## Matador-IV

The idea that China is lagging Taiwan with regard to technology and/or quality, is a good 5+ years out dated. 

Bike frames are NOT technologically advanced, although we like to think so, and the industry tells us so.

I have not ridden a "fake" Pinarello, but I suspect it NOT to be much different than the "orig" Pinarello.


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## darwinosx

robdamanii said:


> Taiwan is not china.
> 
> Get your facts straight.


Awww did I make you feel bad? Will it help your hurt feelings if I explain to you that I am well aware of the difference? Better now?
How about if I tell you there are carbon bikes made in mainland china? All better now?


Poor thing. Oh wait, I bet you have an "Italian made" Pinarello and like to brag about it? That would explain it.


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## darwinosx

PRB said:


> It's not the Italian Govt which formulated those rules, it's the EU. From the EU rules:


Potato potatah,  Lets see is Italy a member of the EU? Yes. Would the EU say this if Italy did not OK it? No.


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## Dajianshan

Thanks! 

Few people know to make the distinction.


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## Hooben

I would really hope that the real Pinarello would be vastly superior and look forward to meeting Fausto who I'm sure would tell me the same.


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## robdamanii

darwinosx said:


> Awww did I make you feel bad? Will it help your hurt feelings if I explain to you that I am well aware of the difference? Better now?
> How about if I tell you there are carbon bikes made in mainland china? All better now?
> 
> 
> Poor thing. Oh wait, I bet you have an "Italian made" Pinarello and like to brag about it? That would explain it.


Yep. I ride an italian made Pinarello, and that's why I'm disgusted by counterfeiters. 

No, I'm disgusted by counterfeiters because they are one of the lowest life forms on the planet. If you're so desperate to own an exclusive item that you'll go and buy counterfeit to get it, you're nothing more than a sad, pathetic social climbing excuse of a consumer.

If you're not smart enough to research where a frame is made before you open your ignorant mouth, don't get yourself all worked up about it. You've nobody to blame but yourself.


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## trailrunner68

robdamanii said:


> Yep. I ride an italian made Pinarello...


Some people would rather save money by having their frame painted by Yun Fat instead of Mario. Underneatht the paint they are still just frames made in China.


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## robdamanii

trailrunner68 said:


> Some people would rather save money by having their frame painted by Yun Fat instead of Mario. Underneatht the paint they are still just frames made in China.


That was sarcasm. I guess the  wasn't enough.

My carbon frame was built in Look's Tunisia factory.


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## martinrjensen

*trying to get this back on track.*

This thread seems to have gotten a bit off track. The OP and at least me expressed interest in the physical or ride differences between an original or real Pinarello and a "fake" Pinarello, if I may be so blunt. Not caring where each was actually built as I'm sure both are made in mainland China or Taiwan, maybe the same plant?


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## Ride-Fly

Hooben said:


> I would really hope that the real Pinarello would be vastly superior and look forward to meeting Fausto who I'm sure would tell me the same.


One woud hope but I seriously doubt anyone, and I mean ANYONE, would be able to tell the difference. Where it might differ is in the long-term durability where the amount of resin might be more in the fake Pin, or the curing process may been skimped. But I'm no expert on all this stuff. Just throwing out a couple "what ifs".


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## RC28

To address the OP, I have ridden both a "Chinarello" and a real Pinarello Dogma Sky. To tell you the truth, I found differences in ride qualities to be minimal and I doubt that many people , if blindfolded, could tell them apart.


There was another thread I believe in the Pinarello subforum which documented all the differences between the Chinarellos and Pinarellos.Those differences have changed a bit since now the replicas are being made out of an updated mold that addresses many (but not all) of the physical differences


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## merckxman

darwinosx said:


> Potato potatah, Lets see is Italy a member of the EU? Yes. Would the EU say this if Italy did not OK it? No.


The fact is that these are EU rules and not Italian rules, and all the EU countries had to sign off on them and they all have to abide by the rules which in the case of bikes would apply to Made in Germany, made in Belgium, etc. etc. even if they were made elsewhere.


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## trailrunner68

robdamanii said:


> My carbon frame was built in Look's Tunisia factory.


So let me get this straight. Your Tunisian made frame is not as good as a frame made and painted in Italy. It is better than one made in China and painted in Italy, and it is much better than one made in the same factory and painted in China. Got you.


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## camping biker

$4000 for a bike and they can't get a real Italian to make it? Fascinating. Is that why the bikes look like they melted in a microwave? 

Who is selling the china copies? Are they being marked the same and sold through the same dealers?


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## Ride-Fly

trailrunner68 said:


> So let me get this straight. Your Tunisian made frame is not as good as a frame made and painted in Italy. It is better than one made in China and painted in Italy, and it is much better than one made in the same factory and painted in China. Got you.


thats not what he said. 

he is against counterfeits. rightfully so.


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## mobilesleepy

Aren't the differences in the layup and type of Carbon used? 

It's awfully foolish to think that just because they look identical, they're going to ride identical. It's insulting to have the approach that "just because" it's a bike, it's some sort of primitive thing that should be obtained as cheap as possible. If that's truly the case, why not just buy a cheap brand instead of trying to go for a fake?
It's even worse to assume they are one and the same item, and that it's all one big conspiracy to cheat Freds out of their money. 
It's all made in one giant Factory in China, the same one that produced Obama's birth certificate!


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## JohnJGreenfield

mobilesleepy said:


> Aren't the differences in the layup and type of Carbon used?
> 
> It's awfully foolish to think that just because they look identical, they're going to ride identical. It's insulting to have the approach that "just because" it's a bike, it's some sort of primitive thing that should be obtained as cheap as possible. If that's truly the case, why not just buy a cheap brand instead of trying to go for a fake?
> It's even worse to assume they are one and the same item, and that it's all one big conspiracy to cheat Freds out of their money.
> It's all made in one giant Factory in China, the same one that produced Obama's birth certificate!


Yes, yes, yes..........logic would bring us to that conclusion, however the whole point of this thread is to find someone out there who has actually ridden both and can comment from personal experience. There are plenty of other threads out there where you can comment on your opinion, argue over the ethics etc. I'm trying to get some 'factual' feedback.


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## mobilesleepy

Well, think of the cheapest, crap feeling crabon frame you've ever ridden and imagine it with the wavy fork and stays of the Pinarello.


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## JohnJGreenfield

mobilesleepy said:


> Well, think of the cheapest, crap feeling crabon frame you've ever ridden and imagine it with the wavy fork and stays of the Pinarello.



But you are still commenting on opinion, not from actually riding both. Or have you?


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## mobilesleepy

Haven't ridden either, think those designs look like crap.


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## mmatrix

*search forum*

hey guys why all the anger. 
the question was simple compare a fake to a real one.

Just search the forum there are a few guys in this forum that own both the real Pinarello and also a fake.

read joe below but there are more.

Also Do a search for user RC28 he also has a fake and a real one.

Joe.90 below


11-10-2011 #71
Joe.90
RoadBikeReview Member

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 9
Rep Power: 0
Rep: 
user gallery 

I have three carbon bikes..1 for racing 2 for training/other 

One is a Pinarello F4:13, one a colnago C50, the other is a Chinese Pinarello prince copy. 
Guess which one is my race bike???



Wrong!!!. The fake seems faster. (..waits for reaction)


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## JohnJGreenfield

*Got to declare my motive...........could be throwing petrol on the fire!*

I wanted to get feedback on real vs. fake as I'm currently in the process of building up a Chinerello Dogma 60.1 :blush2:

I don't accept that the frame looks crap etc......it is beautiful, a fantasticlly well made copy. Yes, I know all the ethical arguments, but it is the only way I'm ever going to get near anything like this. Real cost would be somewhere near £8k, my costs are going to be less than £3k. Everything except the Groupset - I'm not going for anything except the very best here, 2012 Super Record Ti, is China/Taiwan copy. The wheels came from Sweden, but I found they were manufactured in Taiwan (label on the box)

Below is the current status on the build. I ordered the Groupset yesterday, so need to check the claimed weight vs.actual.


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## Salsa_Lover

I can't see the logic behind "saving" money on a fake frame but splurging on Super Record.


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## orange_julius

Salsa_Lover said:


> I can't see the logic behind "saving" money on a fake frame but splurging on Super Record.


I think if he could get a clone Super Record, he would. Business opportunity for somebody in a lower-wage country maybe? Campagnolo clones? It can be called "Clonepagnolo"!

Anyway, I won't get into the ethics of cloning or copying designs, but if anything else this brings to question the effectiveness of the EU manufacturing rule cited: " ... substantial, economically justified processing or working in an undertaking equipped for that purpose and resulting in the manufacture of a new product or representing an important stage of manufacture."

If we extrapolate, the question is really on how to value something economically. How long before this thread gets moved to PO?

And Salsa_Lover, Switzerland has stricter rules, right? I'm sitting here eating a "Made in Switzerland" Muesli!

Oh, and Merry Xmas to everybody!


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## LONDON-GUY

John just build the bike to your spec that you are happy with and don't get to caught up with all the badge snobs that are so quick to knock your bike build 
Happy Christmas


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## robdamanii

Ride-Fly said:


> thats not what he said.
> 
> he is against counterfeits. rightfully so.


/\

You got it.


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## Doctor Falsetti

I assume everyone has seen the website

PinarelloChina.com | Buy Pinarello Carbon Bike Frame from China, OEM Carbon Bike Frame

Nice paint jobs.


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## Salsa_Lover

orange_julius said:


> I think if he could get a clone Super Record, he would. Business opportunity for somebody in a lower-wage country maybe? Campagnolo clones? It can be called "Clonepagnolo"!
> 
> Anyway, I won't get into the ethics of cloning or copying designs, but if anything else this brings to question the effectiveness of the EU manufacturing rule cited: " ... substantial, economically justified processing or working in an undertaking equipped for that purpose and resulting in the manufacture of a new product or representing an important stage of manufacture."
> 
> If we extrapolate, the question is really on how to value something economically. How long before this thread gets moved to PO?
> 
> And Salsa_Lover, Switzerland has stricter rules, right? I'm sitting here eating a "Made in Switzerland" Muesli!
> 
> Oh, and Merry Xmas to everybody!


Not only Switzerland, I guess it is Europe wide.

If you are caught bringing in a counterfeit, even as a particular, ( like for example a fake Rolex or a LV purse ) you'll have to pay a big fine and you could also face prison.

I see the point on saving a little coin and purchasing one of those bland and cheap Chinese frames. But why if you are not a Fred with social scale issues, would you want a fake copy of something so recognisable ?


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## orange_julius

Salsa_Lover said:


> Not only Switzerland, I guess it is Europe wide.
> 
> If you are caught bringing in a counterfeit, even as a particular, ( like for example a fake Rolex or a LV purse ) you'll have to pay a big fine and you could also face prison.
> 
> I see the point on saving a little coin and purchasing one of those bland and cheap Chinese frames. But why if you are not a Fred with social scale issues, would you want a fake copy of something so recognisable ?


So Swiss rules on calling something "made in Switzerland" = EU rules?

Are you asking the masses who are willing to buy fake Rolex, TAG, and many other Swiss brands?


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## Don4

Aside from the ethics of buying a knockoff, which are not immaterial, I prefer to buy my equipment from actual bike companies with know names and actual, legitimate US distribution channels _for my own safety!_

I own a 2011 Felt F3. A bike designed in the US, and manufactured, for Felt, in Taiwan. The frame and fork were a new design for 2011, and I was an early adopter. Felt, in it's quality / continuous conformance testing, had a carbon fork fail _in the lab_, and even though it exceeded the standards set by the CPSC, and technically, they were covered, it didn't meet their own internal standards so they recalled all affected forks.

It was a very costly decision for Felt, monetarily, and it sucked to have to take my bike off the road while they came up with a solution, and rolled it out to the field. In the end, I ended up with an Enve replacement fork, and a strong sense that I had bought from the right company.

Based on my daily dealings with legitimate, sister company joint ventures at work with companies in China, there is _absolutely no frakking way_, that I would buy a knockoff direct from these hosers.

It truly is just not worth it.


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## letitsnow

RC28 said:


> To address the OP, I have ridden both a "Chinarello" and a real Pinarello Dogma Sky. To tell you the truth, I found differences in ride qualities to be minimal and I doubt that many people , if blindfolded, could tell them apart.
> 
> 
> There was another thread I believe in the Pinarello subforum which documented all the differences between the Chinarellos and Pinarellos.Those differences have changed a bit since now the replicas are being made out of an updated mold that addresses many (but not all) of the physical differences


Just so that we don't lose track of the one worthwhile reply.


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## turbogrover

mobilesleepy said:


> Haven't ridden either, think those designs look like crap.


Then, you should just say nothing and be polite to the OP.


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## draganM

Hmm, since it's Christmas here's some gas to pour on the fire .  
found and interesting video on you tube showing the Pinarrelo factory being toured by a Japanese buyer. Looks like they do more than just paint.
1) the raw Carbon frame and forks are first tested in load frames for stress-cycles, durability, strength
2) The Raw carbon mold has the drop out's bonded in (glued ) 
3) the frame is then hand finished and painted.
So the difference is in the final fit and finish + little extra testing. Like the Felt bike mentioned above your also getting a company *with a name/reputation to protect* standing behind it. Is that worth and extra $5K = personal opinion

Pinarello Bicycles, made in china - YouTube

I'm not a sponsored rider, i pay to race, sot authenticity to me is not important.


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## draganM

another thing is I really don't understand this fighting about Pinarrelo anyway, I mean who gives a crap?
If you want a 100% pure Italian bike buy a Colnago 

The full creation of a Colnago EPS frame - 100% Made in Italy - YouTube


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