# press car hits rider



## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

I ran a search but I am coming up with nothing. WTF??????...That press vehicle that hit the rider and knocked another into a barbed wire fence????






this is the second press created disaster this week


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Video-French-TV-car-hits-a-cyclist-during-Tour-?urn=top-wp166


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Touch0Gray said:


> I ran a search but I am coming up with nothing. WTF??????...That press vehicle that hit the rider and knocked another into a barbed wire fence????
> 
> 
> 
> this is the second press created disaster this week


Fourth!

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=255066
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=255003
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=254984

Note that Hoogerland broke a solid wooden fence post that was buried in the ground...


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

I watched it on nbc over and over.... it was horrible!


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

I wonder if they'll start rethinking the number of vehicles they're letting into the racers' midst.


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## eyezlee (Nov 28, 2009)

The racers should be first and foremost in every car drivers mind. Can't understand this drivers mentality. I saw it this morning and I wanted to whip his ass!


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## chris1911 (Aug 16, 2010)

Looks like he wouldn't have had enough time to hit the brakes, although he should have been looking ahead. What a crappy situation.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

Marc said:


> Fourth!
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=255066
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=255003
> ...


Thanks Marc I just couldn't find them with a search.......had it been be I would have kept that fence post to hit the driver over the head with


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Touch0Gray said:


> Thanks Marc I just couldn't find them with a search.......had it been be I would have kept that fence post to hit the driver over the head with


His teammate Feillu is rather more circumspect than I could manage:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/feillu-urges-calm-after-hoogerland-crash


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## palmerlaker (Sep 30, 2005)

For those breakaway riders I counted 6 motorbikes 2 red cars and team cars. Really do you need that kind of coverage for 4 guys. In general the cars and motorbikes seem to take alot of risks with the riders safety in getting the tv shot or support to the riders. Head has to be on a swivel instead racing....!


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

Horrendous crash...about as bad as they come. He'll need some stitches. And a tetanus shot. I don't see how he makes Tuesday's start.


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## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

Even if the car couldn't stop in time it seems like the car shouldn't have been trying to pass in such a narrow spot and if it was tree or riders I think he should have opted for brakes and tree. Don't these guys get training.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

I know for a fact that i would have chosen the tree before i hit a person!


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## dharrison (Oct 27, 2009)

Touch0Gray said:


> I know for a fact that i would have chosen the tree before i hit a person!


I'd like to think the same thing about myself but that isn't something one can _know _until they're actually in that situation.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

lemme put it this way...I have NOT hit a LOT of people over the years.....I mean I get it, the guy almost certainly didn't hit him intentionally, but for the love of gawd......the conditions dictate a HELL of a lot more care than that!


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

Touch0Gray said:


> I know for a fact that i would have chosen the tree before i hit a person!


The driver did over correct for the tree by about 6" from what I could tell.

He should have been beeping his horn for going thru


Anyways, I read it was Voeckler's fault, he called for the team car for water bottles, so the car was getting out of the way by going forward.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

his employer should definitely give him his walking papers.

inexcusable lack of judgement.


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## revrnd (Nov 23, 2005)

Marc said:


>


My legs look almost that bad after wandering around in a blackberry patch wearing shorts.

Those 2 riders are very lucky. I hope that something positive comes from this, but you guys probably know better than me & nothing will change for this race or next year.


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## FatGut1 (Dec 16, 2008)

I'm sure the driver feels bad. Accidents happen but are you kidding me? Hitting the lead riders? I'm sure he will get fired. I hope the paper company reinburses the riders for their losses.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Man, that's just horrible!!!!  I feel sooooo bad for those guys. They were in the lead break!!! OMG!!! Just horrible!!!


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## husonfirst (Jul 15, 2006)

That was horrible. Hoogerland has some serious cuts. I hope he can recover a bit tomorrow and defend his jersey.


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

looks like tires dropped off edge of the road and overcorrected. ditch was deep on the drivers side so loosing control to ditch side was possible, not sure what would have happened if driver hits tree but it would have been more of a bounce off tree back into road. all together a bad bad place to pass them, often the cars are directed through/forward but that never means to pass in a bad spot. have spent time in team cars for pro events and have seen some dodgy crap, close calls, etc but this one combined all of those into one, bad pass, barbed wire, hit riders, etc


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## Hundminen (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm new to watching TDF and pro cycling, but I thought I heard the commentator (Sherwen I believe) suggest that the TDF judges might award the fallen riders (from the press car collision) with time or point credits to compensate them. Seems like a fair thing to do in this case. Will they really do such a thing?


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Looks really bad. Hope he has his tetanus shot!


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

bas said:


> Anyways, I read it was Voeckler's fault, he called for the team car for water bottles, so the car was getting out of the way by going forward.


Voeckler calling for water bottles may explain why the driver wanted to come through, but it's not Voeckler's fault that the driver did so unsafely.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Hoogerland must have balls the size of watermelons to get up and ride on after that crash. I'm watching him riding along, then having his legs wrapped in bandages, bleeding through his kit, but still finishing and taking the polka dots.


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## 95624 (Oct 23, 2007)

Look closely at the video to see the incredible job that the eventual stage winner Sanchez did to not hit Flecha and to stay upright. I was very pleased to see him win the stage later.


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## viciouscycle (Aug 22, 2009)

If the car had hit the tree, more than likely it would have been a lot worse, more cars and motorcycles involved as well, then more bikes. I hope there is a HUGE improvement before a rider gets killed, which is very easy to see happen at the speeds they are going, had a few more bikes been involved then fall in front of a car....


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

A bit longer video. :frown2:

+http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWT8yeHGA0U


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## krott5333 (Oct 2, 2009)

Hoogerland receiving his polka dot jersey...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJarentZE2g&feature=related


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

revrnd said:


> My legs look almost that bad after wandering around in a blackberry patch wearing shorts.
> 
> Those 2 riders are very lucky. I hope that something positive comes from this, but you guys probably know better than me & nothing will change for this race or next year.


Thank goodness that wasn't his face!! Wow...that looks painfull!!!


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## nailknot (Jul 14, 2010)

Is that a deep deep gash on his left knee as Hoogerland is stepping back over the fence?? Looks like soft tissue to me.

As bad as the decision of the driver to veer back into the riders was, I can only think that if the driver collided with that tree the damage to everyone would have been worse. The car would have impactied the tree on the left front of the car causing the car to spin to the right back onto the road , possibly taking out the five riders. Along with some of the support cars following. Add to the fact that now there would be sharp metal fragments and things being thrown from the car after the impact.

I am just glad that Flecha and Hoogerland were able to continue. This has been one crashed filled tour so far. I have had enough!

I just watched Hoogerland accepting his Polka dot jersey and his eyes filling with tears. I must say that I became a bit emotional too. To watch that crash and have him stand on the podium?? Unbelievable!


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## brumic (Apr 22, 2011)

could have been worst if the car hit the tree. But still the driver is careless and negligence, why on earth that he drove so fast and should have noticed the obstacle ahead.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

The worst part is the driver just kept motoring on like he was oblivious that he just hit someone. Probably was on some cell phone yapping away with non-race officials.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Touch0Gray said:


> I know for a fact that i would have chosen the tree before i hit a person!


And we all know we would step in front of a bullet to save a loved one. Nobody really knows what they would have done in that situation. Nobody really knows what the driver was thinking. Maybe he actually thought that he could squeeze through. It looked like he had a little extra room between the car and the tree and could have given the riders a little more room. Only the driver knows what he was thinking. Did he swerve knowing he was going to hit the cyclists, or did he think he could squeeze between.

Ultimately, a terribly judgment in the first place. I also think it is a terrible way to run this race.

Johan Bruyneel seems to think that a lot of the wrecks are a result of all the vehicles allowed on the course. Just watching Philippe Gilbert weaving around cars trying to get back to the peloton was nuts. The cars are weaving around other cars on the course. Seems as though the support vehicles are weaving around ref vehicles left and right.

The show must go on. Think I am going to stop watching it at this point.

The ironic thing is that I have been on the fence about racing because of all the crashes I witnessed in 2007, 2008, and 2009 and all the ones I have read about in 2010 and this year. Been going back and forth about racing again, and thought watching the tour might be the catalyst to get me back into it. After hearing about broken pelvis, broken shoulder, broken collar bone, cyclist through barbed wire, cyclist hit by car, it really isn't doing the trick for me.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

harlond said:


> Voeckler calling for water bottles may explain why the driver wanted to come through, but it's not Voeckler's fault that the driver did so unsafely.


Exactly. What is Voeckler supposed to do? Try and judge when the conditions are safe to call for water bottles. A racer has enough to deal with that he should not have to deal with trying to figure out where all the press cars are, where his team car is, where the refs are, etc., before calling for water bottles or food. Or, just make water bottles available ONLY at feed zones. Then we will be talking about dehydration and heat stroke, but a lot less about all these insane cars on the road.

Another ironic point is how we, as a cycling community, have an issue with cars/trucks and our safety. However, in the biggest event in our sport, there are probably more vehicles than cyclists on the road. Just utterly incredible.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

The driver was an idiot and should have his driving privileges suspended. Those of you excusing him because of the tree are making a ridiculous argument. Why wasn't the driver looking ahead and anticipating the tree? Why didn't he simply slow down or use his brakes? Because he was a frickin idiot. Rule No. 1 for TDF drivers: Do not run over the cyclists!


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

The driver of the car did know that tv had requested water and had been instructed to pull over before that stretch to allow the europcar vehicle through. The driver disregarded those instructions and attempted to pass instead.


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## litespeedchick (Sep 9, 2003)

tarwheel2 said:


> The driver was an idiot and should have his driving privileges suspended. Those of you excusing him because of the tree are making a ridiculous argument. Why wasn't the driver looking ahead and anticipating the tree? Why didn't he simply slow down or use his brakes? Because he was a frickin idiot. Rule No. 1 for TDF drivers: Do not run over the cyclists!


Agreed. Just because 30-40 mph is blazing fast on a bike, it doesn't exactly take Michael Schumacher to manouver a car at those speeds. It looked to me like there were other options besides hitting the tree or the riders for a decent driver, or one who was actually looking out the front window....


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*race directors*



harlond said:


> Voeckler calling for water bottles may explain why the driver wanted to come through, but it's not Voeckler's fault that the driver did so unsafely.


told the TV Car to PULL OVER to allow Voeckler's Team Car Through

they did not say PASS THEM


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

The amount of risk being taken by that driver by passing on that narrow road was incredible anyway. It is impossible for me to watch that video and not flash back to April 2nd last year when I got nailed while commuting to work which resulted in a severe concussion, raccoon eyes, lost memory, a torn meniscus and MCL, road rash, and a legal battle to have my two months of lost wages, medical bills, and bike paid for. Cyclists are absolutely defenseless in such situations. 

Noble ride by Hoogerland and Flecha!


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

litespeedchick said:


> or one who was actually looking out the front window....


i think this is what it comes down to - the driver was distracted with the race and attention was shifted right when the road narrowed at the tree. riders have been hit by team cars over the years, riders have hit team cars, medical cars have hit riders. 

it will happen when you put cars, motos, and racers together on tight roads at high speeds for hours on end. welcome to racing.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Spot on*



thechriswebb said:


> The driver of the car did know that tv had requested water and had been instructed to pull over before that stretch to allow the europcar vehicle through. The driver disregarded those instructions and attempted to pass instead.


ignored official instructions
my guess is his boss in the passenger seat was saying "pass them, we can set up a good shot up the road"


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

atpjunkie said:


> ignored official instructions
> my guess is his boss in the passenger seat was saying "pass them, we can set up a good shot up the road"




I imagine exactly the same thing.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

tarwheel2 said:


> The driver was an idiot and should have his driving privileges suspended. Those of you excusing him because of the tree are making a ridiculous argument. Why wasn't the driver looking ahead and anticipating the tree? Why didn't he simply slow down or use his brakes? Because he was a frickin idiot. Rule No. 1 for TDF drivers: Do not run over the cyclists!


you must be new to bicycle racing. bikes and cars have been making contact for years. i can't find the video on line of the race doctor's car taking out a rider getting medical attention - that one shows you how dangerous the race really is when you mix cars and bikes...


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> ignored official instructions
> my guess is his boss in the passenger seat was saying "pass them, we can set up a good shot up the road"


it was a technical crew - no cameras in car. they were simply trying to get out of the way - where exactly were they supposed to pull off? notice the parade of motos and cars behind them? they probably thought - let's move ahead and get out of the way - the driver was watching the cyclists and not the road - it's not like it might have been exciting to see a French rider like T.V. in a break away.


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> it was a technical crew - no cameras in car. they were simply trying to get out of the way - where exactly were they supposed to pull off? notice the parade of motos and cars behind them? they probably thought - let's move ahead and get out of the way - the driver was watching the cyclists and not the road - it's not like it might have been exciting to see a French rider like T.V. in a break away.


They made a bad decision. The right decision would have been to slow down and pull over. No, there wasn't much room to pull over. At best they could have gotten two wheels maybe a foot off the pavement. However, that would have been enough to allow cars to pass. They accelerated, the cars left front tire went slightly off the pavement, he over corrected because of this AND the upcoming tree, which he surely would have hit. He used bad judgement and didn't handle the car well and the cyclists paid for it. The driver is entirely at fault.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

seems like there are just too many vehicles, period. 

they're distracting as a viewer, wonder if the riders find them to be a pita, too...I thought I saw TV giving one of the camera crews some snarly looks at one point.

the team cars and medical assistance vehicles are necessary, the moto team giving gap times are useful, and we all like the great up-close vid shots from the media motos, yadda yaddaa...

but, it's a freakin' rush-hour traffic jam out there...gotta be some way to reduce the number of people not on bicycles that are on the race course.

has anyone ever used a bike from the Mavic support car...ever? maybe send them to the very back of the race...


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## Ultrasaurus (Jan 28, 2011)

Oxtox said:


> has anyone ever used a bike from the Mavic support car...ever? maybe send them to the very back of the race...


Jens Voigt.


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

They tend to be used by the support riders. Team support cars are always near the team leaders but the support riders are often behind the team cars. They would not be able to take advantage of the team car and need the neutral support.


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## ohvrolla (Aug 2, 2009)

You know that car that decides to pass you in a blind corner without slowing down? Just waiting for the day a car is coming in the opposing lane.


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## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

eyezlee said:


> The racers should be first and foremost in every car drivers mind. Can't understand this drivers mentality. I saw it this morning and I wanted to whip his ass!


This.


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## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

asciibaron said:


> it was a technical crew - no cameras in car. they were simply trying to get out of the way - where exactly were they supposed to pull off? notice the parade of motos and cars behind them? they probably thought - let's move ahead and get out of the way - the driver was watching the cyclists and not the road - it's not like it might have been exciting to see a French rider like T.V. in a break away.


I think the race director deserves much of the blame, ultimately he is supposed to be in change. The director allowed too many cars and motos to be positioned in front his own car and too close to the breakaway group of five.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

fabsroman said:


> And we all know we would step in front of a bullet to save a loved one. Nobody really knows what they would have done in that situation. Nobody really knows what the driver was thinking. Maybe he actually thought that he could squeeze through. It looked like he had a little extra room between the car and the tree and could have given the riders a little more room. Only the driver knows what he was thinking. Did he swerve knowing he was going to hit the cyclists, or did he think he could squeeze between.


This is the kind of mentality that excuses car vs. bike (or car vs. anything) collisions as mere accidents. And I call BS. This was a totally unnecessary incident that is totally the fault of the driver. And while it was almost certainly not intentional, it was no accident. The driver had options other than hitting the cyclist. I don't know what was going through the driver's head, but clearly he wasn't looking ahead at the road and predicting that he was running out of room with sufficient time to deal with it so he could avoid the crash. Driving is serious business, especially in that situation, and you have to take it seriously. When you don't, and something bad results, don't insult our intelligence and call it an "accident."


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> This is the kind of mentality that excuses car vs. bike (or car vs. anything) collisions as mere accidents. And I call BS. This was a totally unnecessary incident that is totally the fault of the driver. And while it was almost certainly not intentional, it was no accident. The driver had options other than hitting the cyclist. I don't know what was going through the driver's head, but clearly he wasn't looking ahead at the road and predicting that he was running out of room with sufficient time to deal with it so he could avoid the crash. Driving is serious business, especially in that situation, and you have to take it seriously. When you don't, and something bad results, don't insult our intelligence and call it an "accident."


 
What would you call it if not accident?


*ac·ci·dent*

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</OBJECT><NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> https://app.dictionary.com/signup/p...lbackAction=addToFav&domaindest=reference.com/ˈæk







dənt/  Show Spelled[*ak*-si-d_uh







_nt]  Show IPA<!-- google_ad_section_end --> 
*–noun *1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: _automobile accidents. _

2. _Law _. such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought. 

3. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause. 

Curious minds and all. If it wasn't intentional, how is it anything other than an accident?

Len


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## saf-t (Sep 24, 2008)

Len J said:


> What would you call it if not accident?
> 
> Curious minds and all. If it wasn't intentional, how is it anything other than an accident?
> 
> Len


An incident. For me, an accident is something that truly can't be avoided- this is something that easily could have been.

Drives me nuts when people talk about workplace "accidents", when everybody involved knows exactly how it could have easily been prevented......


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

I don't know what to call it, but calling it an accident makes it sound like no one is responsible. And in almost all cases, that is just not true. If a 100-year old tree falls on your house in a wind storm, that's an accident. If you hit someone with your car because you weren't paying attention, that's not an accident. If there is no explanation for what happened, then call it an accident. Otherwise, it's bad driving.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> I don't know what to call it, but calling it an accident makes it sound like no one is responsible. And in almost all cases, that is just not true. If a 100-year old tree falls on your house in a wind storm, that's an accident. If you hit someone with your car because you weren't paying attention, that's not an accident. If there is no explanation for what happened, then call it an accident. Otherwise, it's bad driving.


Calling it an accident does not imply lack of responsability, only lack of intentionality.

By it's very dfinition, if there is no intention, it's an accident.

If I have a car accident and someone is hurt and it is deemed my fault, I (or my insurance company) is liable......my liability in no way changes the fact that it was an accident.

Len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

saf-t said:


> An incident. For me, an accident is something that truly can't be avoided- this is something that easily could have been.
> 
> Drives me nuts when people talk about workplace "accidents", when everybody involved knows exactly how it could have easily been prevented......


OK, so submit your definition to websters and we will see if they revise the definition. 

Len


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Len J said:


> Calling it an accident does not imply lack of responsability, only lack of intentionality.
> 
> By it's very dfinition, if there is no intention, it's an accident.
> 
> ...


My definition of accident has nothing to do with intent. If it could have reasonably been avoided it's not an accident in my book. Most car "accidents" don't qualify as such. Some do, such as accidents caused by heart attacks and such. However, my FIL is an "accident" waiting to happen because of his physical disabilities. He's got no business driving a car at 88 with neuropathy in his legs and hands. I won't ride with him.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

If you want to focus on lack of intent, then call it reckless disregard. Basically, that's doing something you know can cause harm, even though it is not your intent to harm someone.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

TerminatorX91 said:


> I think the race director deserves much of the blame, ultimately he is supposed to be in change. The director allowed too many cars and motos to be positioned in front his own car and too close to the breakaway group of five.


i agree with this logic - too much for the narrow roads.


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

mohair_chair said:


> And while it was almost certainly not intentional, it was no accident. The driver had options other than hitting the cyclist. I don't know what was going through the driver's head, but clearly he wasn't looking ahead at the road and predicting that he was running out of room with sufficient time to deal with it so he could avoid the crash. Driving is serious business, especially in that situation, and you have to take it seriously. When you don't, and something bad results, don't insult our intelligence and call it an "accident."


totally agree, the guy is obviously not a good driver from the video it looks like to that he could have made it without the jog to the right, perhaps the side mirror gets mashed but who gives a f*#k about a side mirror when the alternative was what happened. Hopefully there will be some legal ramifications from this for the driver.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

bas said:


> The driver did over correct for the tree by about 6" from what I could tell.
> 
> He should have been beeping his horn for going thru
> 
> ...



This is ABSOLUTELY *WRONG*

Velo News is reporting, that Tour officials have made the statement that Voeckler had already requested bottles and that black car was SPECIFICALLY told NOT to pass and they did it anyway. They directly disobeyed the specific instructions they were given. 

That black News car should have never been in the position it was in to begin with.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Cpk said:


> Hopefully there will be some legal ramifications from this for the driver.


why? it wasn't deliberate and it is not the first nor will it be the last time a caravan vehicle hits riders.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> it was a technical crew - no cameras in car. they were simply trying to get out of the way - where exactly were they supposed to pull off? notice the parade of motos and cars behind them? they probably thought - let's move ahead and get out of the way - the driver was watching the cyclists and not the road - it's not like it might have been exciting to see a French rider like T.V. in a break away.


Explain to me how they would have pulled over in front of the break??

All the vehicles would have had to squeeze between them and the break then...

Makes way more sense to slow down, allow the break past and then pull off to the right allowing the team cars through...

Just like lots of drivers on the road they were thinking let's get ahead instead of doing the safe thing...


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

rbart4506 said:


> Explain to me how they would have pulled over in front of the break??
> 
> Makes way more sense to slow down


watch the video, notice the parade of vehicles behind - they really had no where to go - i'm sure the Eurocar car was just patiently waiting to get up to his rider and wouldn't mind if the parade came to stop. seriously - watch the video before the accident and notice how congested the road was, the "tailgating" and the speed. 

it would have been a non-issue, like the hundreds of other times it happens had the driver not had to avoid the tree. did you see it coming?


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## Spanky_88007 (Aug 28, 2008)

How bad would it have been for the guy in the car to, I don't know... use his brakes and stop? The cyclists wouldn't have been the wiser. And if the motorcyclists behind the car were following too closely, and rear ended the car, well, that's what they get for not paying attention. This incident was totally avoidable and the driver of the car has _*NO*_ valid excuse for hitting these guys. Of course, I wouldn't doubt if he doesn't receive any kind of punitive action. That's the case all too often. But then, I'm a cynic.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Wanting the driver to be put on a pillory and physically injured because of this is pretty immature and hypocritical. The whole situation of cyclists racing amongst cars is extremely dangerous, and a mistake by either a cyclist or a driver at this level can be catastrophic.


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## Spanky_88007 (Aug 28, 2008)

Maybe the prospect of getting in _real_ trouble would help encourage more drivers in the caravan to pay some phucking attention. 

Otherwise, if nothing happens, or if very little happens to the driver, others may look at it and develop a "meh" attitude, then you get more cyclists getting hit by numb nutted drivers. 

It's pretty much the same thing as you or I getting hit by Joe Schmoe motoring around on Main Street, IMHO. If you are aware that there are cyclists on the road, whether it be in town, in the suburbs, in a race, etc., etc., and the cyclist is adhering to the exact same rules of the road, and you hit him/her, you should be held criminally responsible for causing that person bodily harm if you hit him/her. I've always thought this should be a black and white type of issue. 

Sure, it wasn't deliberate, and it will likely happen again. But those two points are not valid reasons to let the motorist off the hook. What if a motorist accidentally hit you while you were riding and you were injured? Would you tell him, "oh, it was an accident, no big deal"? If so, you're a much mellower person than I am.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

this accident has no relationship to anything that happens while on public streets to you or me. the pros are used to the caravan and the bulk of the caravan is used to the riders. this could have been worse, but it's part of the game - everyone in the race knows a flat on a moto at speed could take out riders, they accept the risk.


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## Spanky_88007 (Aug 28, 2008)

A flat tire on a motorcycle is a random, surprise thing that a human really can't help. A motorist's inattention is not, regardless of whether it's in a race environment. Actually, he should have been MORE attentive because he _was in a race environment_. And it's not like the driver didn't realize there was a tree there all of a sudden. It didn't just jump out at him from no where. There are trees all along that road. He should have waited for a longer, treeless stretch to pass the racers. Hell, he didn't even use a horn to warn of his presence. Right or wrong, I hold him 100% responsible.

Again, we all have differing opinions, mine is just that the driver should have to face more penance than just his guilty conscience, preferably the legal kind.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Spanky_88007 said:


> Again, we all have differing opinions, mine is just that the driver should have to face more penance than just his guilty conscience, preferably the legal kind.


On that topic:



Cyclingnews.com said:


> Despite the nature of the accident and his injuries, Hoogerland and his Vacansoleil team have confirmed that they will not take legal action against the driver or the Tour de France.
> 
> "They have apologized and we’ve accepted their apology. We’re not looking for a scapegoat. They went too far and they know that,” team manager Daan Luijkx said according to De Telegraaf.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hoogerland-hopes-to-continue-in-tour-de-france


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Spanky_88007 said:


> And it's not like the driver didn't realize there was a tree there all of a sudden.


yes it was - the road narrowed only at the tree. also note that in France, they drive to the right of center and i'm sure the driver was not used to avoiding things on the driver side hence the massive over correction. sure the situation sucks and it seems that the car was forced forward by the narrow road, the team caravans, and the need to move out of the way.

take note of the positioning of the cars as they move past the crash - the green Eurocar is right behind the official next to the motos which are following the French TV car - stopping on the side really wasn't an option in this section of road - pulling ahead would have been fine save the tree...

also note that Flecha starts moving to his left as the car approaches the tree - the car was moving to the far side of the road.

it's a sh!t sandwich no matter how you dress it up.


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## Spanky_88007 (Aug 28, 2008)

Marc said:


> On that topic:
> 
> Despite the nature of the accident and his injuries, Hoogerland and his Vacansoleil team have confirmed that they will not take legal action against the driver


Bummer. Such is life. With any luck at all, the driver will have at least learned a lesson. Again, I'm a cynic.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

asciibaron said:


> why? it wasn't deliberate and it is not the first nor will it be the last time a caravan vehicle hits riders.


If the UCI doesn't come up with some rule to prevent this in the future, then it clearly cares more about cars than riders. It should be a very simple rule. If the road is less than X meters wide, then cars cannot drive next to or pass and riders, unless the riders are single-file. No exceptions. Violation of the rule means your credentials are pulled immediately and you will not be allowed back on the course. If a team car wants to deal with a rider in a multi-rider break, then that rider has to drop back so he is single-file. If some official vehicle (referee, doctor, etc.) needs to do something official with a rider, then the rider has to drop back so he is single-file. For any other car, you stay back until the road widens and you can safely pass, or the riders go single-file. You wait, because the riders are more important than the cars.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> If the UCI doesn't come up with some rule to prevent this in the future, then it clearly cares more about cars than riders. It should be a very simple rule. If the road is less than X meters wide, then cars cannot drive next to or pass and riders, unless the riders are single-file. No exceptions. Violation of the rule means your credentials are pulled immediately and you will not be allowed back on the course. If a team car wants to deal with a rider in a multi-rider break, then that rider has to drop back so he is single-file. If some official vehicle (referee, doctor, etc.) needs to do something official with a rider, then the rider has to drop back so he is single-file. For any other car, you stay back until the road widens and you can safely pass, or the riders go single-file. You wait, because the riders are more important than the cars.


I agree with your rule......

but, as long as the tour (or any race) is a money making venture, the sponsors needs will unfortunatly come before the riders safety.

Len


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> If the UCI doesn't come up with some rule to prevent this in the future, then it clearly cares more about cars than riders. It should be a very simple rule. If the road is less than X meters wide, then cars cannot drive next to or pass and riders, unless the riders are single-file.


watch the video again - the problem is twofold - the rider moves toward the center of the road just as the tree narrows the available space for the car to pass. the road was plenty wide until the tree and rider diminished it.

the issue should be failure to use the horn to alert the riders of their intention to pass. i'm sure it would have kept Flecha from moving toward the center.


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## philoanna (Dec 2, 2007)

Anywho, most car accidents (in a bike race or not) are preventable by slowing down a little.
At least the damage isn't so bad with slower speeds.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

asciibaron said:


> watch the video again - the problem is twofold - the rider moves toward the center of the road just as the tree narrows the available space for the car to pass. the road was plenty wide until the tree and rider diminished it.
> 
> the issue should be failure to use the horn to alert the riders of their intention to pass. i'm sure it would have kept Flecha from moving toward the center.


At it's narrowest point, the road was not wide enough. That is indisputable. The tree didn't suddenly appear.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> At it's narrowest point, the road was not wide enough. That is indisputable. The tree didn't suddenly appear.


yes it did - the tarmac narrows suddenly at the tree.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

asciibaron said:


> yes it did - the tarmac narrows suddenly at the tree.


Right. So that's where you measure the road to see if it is wide enough. 

It's not.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

"wide enough" for what? passing? 

seems there was plenty of room for passing after the riders were on the ground. Two team cars and numerous moto's stopped... the rest of the caravan had no problem going past to follow the break.


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## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

ohvrolla said:


> You know that car that decides to pass you in a blind corner without slowing down? Just waiting for the day a car is coming in the opposing lane.


yep, that happens to me all the time, blind corner over a hill, double lines... they still go all the way over into the other lane. i have no clue what they're thinking.


____________

i was a little emotional watching him accept the polka-dot jersey as well.
very tough individuals, for sure. took a lot of courage to finish that stage.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Right. So that's where you measure the road to see if it is wide enough.
> 
> It's not.


would be the effect of trying to marshal cars back or off before narrow, limiting sections to prevent fines or removal from the tour? that has the potential to cause much great disaster.

ebb and flow - a simple 'beep beep' before the car moved up would have prevented Flecha from moving over and would have given the car room to make the pass.

too many knee jerk reactions to this - wrap everyone in bubble wrap and cross your fingers - that might work too :thumbsup:


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


> "wide enough" for what? passing?
> 
> seems there was plenty of room for passing after the riders were on the ground. Two team cars and numerous moto's stopped... the rest of the caravan had no problem going past to follow the break.


because Flecha was well right of the center of roadway past the tree.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

sorry, but a bunch of passing rules based on the width of the road aren't going to fix this problem.

what's needed is common sense...there was no urgent reason for the media car to blast around the riders when it did. the driver was a dolt and did something dumb at the worst possible time.

too bad other people paid for his unnecessary impatience.

still waiting for some kind of public apology from this bonehead.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Oxtox said:


> what's needed is common sense...there was no urgent reason for the media car to blast around the riders when it did. the driver was a dolt and did something dumb at the worst possible time.


the car was being told to move because TV kept calling for his team car. the narrow road made it difficult for the car to pull off, and honestly, it looks like they were trying pull up and over (left side tires in grass) when the tree came up - Flecha moved toward center and removed space for the car.

plenty of riders have been hit with team cars over the years. this was different because it was ahead of the peloton.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> because Flecha was well right of the center of roadway past the tree.


Dude, he's one of the racers. He SHOULD have full rights to any part of the road he wants.

He is also a hell of a lot more vulnerable than that vehicle was. 

Bottom line: the race revolves around the riders, they should be the first priority, NOT the motorcade following them. Blaming Flecha for causing that accident because he was doing his job (racing in the Tour) is ludicrous.


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## desurfer (Feb 13, 2006)

oxtox said:


> has anyone ever used a bike from the mavic support car...ever? Maybe send them to the very back of the race...
> 
> 
> ultrasaurus said:
> ...


Correction: the bike from the Mavic support car used Jens Voigt.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Dude, he's one of the racers. He SHOULD have full rights to any part of the road he wants.


you missed my point - the driver got caught in a sh!t sandwich in part to Flecha coming off his line - it took away the drivers space at the last minute and is also the reason the caravan was able to go round the fallen riders. a tree collision could have killed all 5 riders, so be thankful that didn't happen. had the driver honked to alert Flecha, it would have been tight, but the car would have made it and this thread would not exist.

had the car locked them up to avoid the tree, we'd be reading about two dead moto riders today and their lovely families.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> you missed my point - the driver got caught in a sh!t sandwich in part to Flecha coming off his line. a tree collision could have killed all 5 riders, so be thankful that didn't happen. had the driver honked to alert Flecha, it would have been tight, but the car would have made it.
> 
> had the car locked them up, we'd be reading about two dead moto riders today and their lovely families.


I'm not missing the point, Ascii. The point is the idiot driver of the TV car should not have put themselves in such a place to begin with. That starts with heads up driving and paying attention. 

I fail to believe that he would have missed noticing that tree if he were looking down the road where he should have been. Just watching the video you can tell that is a narrow road with trees along side it...anyone with half a brain says "probably not a good place to pass."

To say "had the driver honked...the car would have made it" is a pretty bold statement. It doesn't absolve the driver of poor judgement and lack of attention.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

The driver is off the Tour (same as the Moto rider that hit Sorensen), Hoogerland is philosophical and Sky are considering legal action!


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## Spanky_88007 (Aug 28, 2008)

asciibaron said:


> would be the effect of trying to marshal cars back or off before narrow, limiting sections to prevent fines or removal from the tour? * that has the potential to cause much great disaster.*


How? How does getting cars out of the way make things more dangerous? Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. 

Looks to me like the driver would not have had to worry about the tree if he hadn't gone off the side of the damn road in the first place. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMjSZhXHiHo

At about 14 seconds into this video his front driver's side tire is almost completely off the road, if not completely off of it. Yeah, it's done and over, and no one can do anything about it, but it still pisses me off. It's just so stupid. All he had to do was pay attention, for Christ's sake! The tree wasn't heading for him, he was heading for the tree. There are plenty of other trees along that road, it's not like the one he swerved to miss was the first he encountered. What did he tell the officials? "Uh, I was just driving along, and out of nowhere..."

Things would get awful sweaty in bubble wrap...


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

asciibaron said:


> would be the effect of trying to marshal cars back or off before narrow, limiting sections to prevent fines or removal from the tour? that has the potential to cause much great disaster.
> 
> ebb and flow - a simple 'beep beep' before the car moved up would have prevented Flecha from moving over and would have given the car room to make the pass.
> 
> too many knee jerk reactions to this - wrap everyone in bubble wrap and cross your fingers - that might work too :thumbsup:


Disaster? Jeeze, talk about a knee jerk reaction. The reality is that they are constantly marshaling cars throughout the race. Up and down, back and forth, all over the place. It's not a difficult problem. It would be no big deal for the race to get cars out of the way before a narrow section.

Even if it were difficult, it doesn't have to be. You issue instructions before the race detailing where the forbidden zones are, and you put out reminders on the radio as you approach the forbidden zones. No surprises, no issues.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> Disaster? Jeeze, talk about a knee jerk reaction. The reality is that they are constantly marshaling cars throughout the race. Up and down, back and forth, all over the place. It's not a difficult problem. It would be no big deal for the race to get cars out of the way before a narrow section.
> 
> Even if it were difficult, it doesn't have to be. You issue instructions before the race detailing where the forbidden zones are, and you put out reminders on the radio as you approach the forbidden zones. No surprises, no issues.


...So long as drivers obey your radio instructions. Cough cough.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> I'm not missing the point, Ascii. The point is the idiot driver of the TV car should not have put themselves in such a place to begin with. That starts with heads up driving and paying attention.


so easy to armchair something that took a fraction of a second to take place. i concede to your ninja skills at everything. too bad everyone is human.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Spanky_88007 said:


> How? How does getting cars out of the way make things more dangerous? Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic.


where does a rolling caravan go when the road narrows and the rules as described are enforced? seriously, where do all the cars go if there is a 3 min gap. there will be a massive bottle neck of team cars fighting to get through the cars and motos that are limited.

10 pounds into a 2 pound pipe.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Spanky_88007 said:


> Looks to me like the driver would not have had to worry about the tree if he hadn't gone off the side of the damn road in the first place.


he was told over the radio to pull over, he tries and then gets f'd by the tree taking the space. you can't have it both ways can you?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> so easy to armchair something that took a fraction of a second to take place. i concede to your ninja skills at everything. too bad everyone is human.


Who said anything about ninja skills? I doubt that looking where the f**k you're going are ninja skills.

Simple solution: don't pass the riders if the roadside is full of obstacles. That's pretty simple, but you're trying to make a complex issue out of it. There is only one party at fault here: the driver of the FTV car; he ignored radio directives not to pass, he passed on an unsafe stretch of road, and he hit a rider, causing a couple crashes.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Even if it were difficult, it doesn't have to be. You issue instructions before the race detailing where the forbidden zones are, and you put out reminders on the radio as you approach the forbidden zones. No surprises, no issues.


please detail your plan and submit it to ASO if you know better.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

robdamanii said:


> Who said anything about ninja skills? I doubt that looking where the f**k you're going are ninja skills.


sounds like an ABSOLUTELY typical driver..... sucker was PROBABLY on the phone when it happened


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> ...So long as drivers obey your radio instructions. Cough cough.


why wouldn't they, oh right.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Who said anything about ninja skills? I doubt that looking where the f**k you're going are ninja skills.


race radio says pull over, you attempt and don't have room so to avoid hitting tree at 40mph, you move back but cyclist has taken your space. 

which is it, follow race radio and pull over or stay in lane blocking team car?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> race radio says pull over, you attempt and don't have room so to avoid hitting tree at 40mph, you move back but cyclist has taken your space.
> 
> which is it, follow race radio and pull over or stay in lane blocking team car?


From Prudhomme:


> "I announced on Radio Tour, which is the channel everyone should be listening to, that all cars should pull to the side and give priority to the team cars," said Prudhomme.
> "The car previously received the order from the race direction not to pass and let the Europcar team manager get through to the breakaway to give Thomas Voeckler the bottle he was asking for.
> "They did not take that order into account... and caused the crash of both riders. This behaviour is intolerabl*e."”


How do those directives translate into "speed up, pass unsafely and not look where the hell you're going?" The idiot driving should have been A) paying attention to the road and possible road hazards, including the riders IN the race, B) listening to radio orders and not passing the break as they were instructed, C) been looking for a place to pull off and allow the rest of the caravan through.

I don't care if you disagree, but defending the driver's obviously negligent actions just for the sake of causing trouble is a waste of time.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

distance from tree 3-4 ft. from cyclist - zero.


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## Ultrasaurus (Jan 28, 2011)

desurfer said:


> Correction: the bike from the Mavic support car used Jens Voigt.


Sir, in all the years that His Hardness, Jens Voigt, has walked this earth, he has never, ever been used.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> race radio says pull over, you attempt and don't have room so to avoid hitting tree at 40mph, you move back but cyclist has taken your space.
> 
> which is it, follow race radio and pull over or stay in lane blocking team car?


There were all sorts of spaces between those trees on the side of the road, he could have stayed behind the riders and pulled off the road entirely into any one of them. Instead, he chose to pass the group of riders, disobeying explicit race official instructions to not pass.


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## desurfer (Feb 13, 2006)

Ultrasaurus said:


> Sir, in all the years that His Hardness, Jens Voigt, has walked this earth, he has never, ever been used.


I stand corrected. The Mavic support bike, in all its humbleness, pleaded for Jens to ride it to the finish.


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## ru1-2cycle (Jan 7, 2006)

Len J said:


> What would you call it if not accident?
> 
> 
> *ac·ci·dent*
> ...


Simply quite reckless, careless, negligent and absolutely unacceptable!


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## ru1-2cycle (Jan 7, 2006)

A todler could drive safer than that.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

bikerjulio said:


> distance from tree 3-4 ft. from cyclist - zero.


Thanks Julio....that's the way I saw it too, all 5 times I watched it in disbelief


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## desurfer (Feb 13, 2006)

Touch0Gray said:


> Thanks Julio....that's the way I saw it too, all 5 times I watched it in disbelief


Yep. It's inexcusably bad, however you look at it.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

asciibaron said:


> watch the video again - the problem is twofold - the rider moves toward the center of the road just as the tree narrows the available space for the car to pass. the road was plenty wide until the tree and rider diminished it.
> 
> the issue should be failure to use the horn to alert the riders of their intention to pass. i'm sure it would have kept Flecha from moving toward the center.


I watched it repeatedly. Flecha does make a minor movement toward the center, but not much. Given where the car ends up, his move is irrelevant to the fact of the collision

Also, the pavement seems to be fairly uniform in width even passing the tree.

As to your claim that the driver was trying to pull over, at the beginning of the clip the car appears to be several feet back from Flecha, at the point of impact the front of the bumper is basically in line with the front of his wheel. Who speeds up while trying to pull over?


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

asciibaron said:


> race radio says pull over, you attempt and don't have room so to avoid hitting tree at 40mph, you move back but cyclist has taken your space.
> 
> which is it, follow race radio and pull over or stay in lane blocking team car?


Slow slightly to let riders pass fully, then move toward the center. When the road widens again pull over.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

asciibaron said:


> please detail your plan and submit it to ASO if you know better.


Well, I do know better. And my plan is a hell of a lot better than your suggestions. "S**t happens, deal with it" and "There are always going to be cars, riders need to stay out of the way" is not a plan.


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## Spanky_88007 (Aug 28, 2008)

asciibaron said:


> he was told over the radio to pull over, he tries and then gets f'd by the tree taking the space. you can't have it both ways can you?


He should have just continued off the side of the road - he was heading that way, anyhow. It would have been better for everyone involved. The cyclists wouldn't have been hit, and had he wrecked into the tree, they would no doubt have pulled him out of the race - hampering his ability to drive like an idiot for the next 2 weeks. :thumbsup:


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

baker921 said:


> The driver is off the Tour (same as the Moto rider that hit Sorensen), Hoogerland is philosophical and Sky are considering legal action!


Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of this...
Vacansoleil, of course, have already said they will not pursue legal action -but then, they're a Continental team and want to be invited back to the TdF. 
Sky has much deeper pockets and a greater standing in the sport. I doubt anything will come of this, but if it encourages Prudhomme to make some changes, that would be awesome.
(Fewer VIP cars, for starters- I swear there is one motorized vehicle per bike racer, it's ridiculous!)


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Marc said:


> HoogerlandTFU


Love the new tagline, Marc!
:thumbsup:


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*they were told by race officials*



asciibaron said:


> it was a technical crew - no cameras in car. they were simply trying to get out of the way - where exactly were they supposed to pull off? notice the parade of motos and cars behind them? they probably thought - let's move ahead and get out of the way - the driver was watching the cyclists and not the road - it's not like it might have been exciting to see a French rider like T.V. in a break away.


to pull over, they didn't, they chose a different course of action and hit riders

my guess is the race officials told them to pull over because they knew the road was too narrow to safely pass

there was no parade behind them, there was 5 support vehicles, the commisars car and a few motos

they didn't have to slam on the brakes and cause a chain reaction, you put your frigging signal on, slow down and pull over onto the shoulder. They'd have been half in/half off and made enough room for cars to go around

so let me ask you. If there's say an auto accident, and police/traffic control tell you to stay put and you don't, and in the course of disobeying instructions you hit somebody what says you?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*egg-zactly*



robdamanii said:


> From Prudhomme:
> 
> 
> How do those directives translate into "speed up, pass unsafely and not look where the hell you're going?" The idiot driving should have been A) paying attention to the road and possible road hazards, including the riders IN the race, B) listening to radio orders and not passing the break as they were instructed, C) been looking for a place to pull off and allow the rest of the caravan through.
> ...


that wasn't trying to pull over, that was trying to pass against race directives

end of story


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*please note*

the 2-3 feet of available 'pull over" space on right side of road (opposite of pass)
also note car isn't in front and trying to pull over, car comes from behind and is clearly trying to pass
please also note: it wasn't the first tree on that side of the road


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Thanks for the screen captures junkie. 

Personally I think they need a drastic reduction in vehicles during these races. A few neutral cars packed with wheels, food, drinks and first aid should be enough. If they need more than that then a follow vehicle will be a availabe to rinder a replacement bike or parts. Time to get back to the old school.

This wreck is one of the most savage I've ever seen in a tour, Johnny Hoogerland is lucky he's still alive.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks for the screenshots.
I thought he could have pulled over and let the team cars pass. He went against direct orders not to pass. It's no accident, it is pure negligence.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> I don't care if you disagree, but defending the driver's obviously negligent actions just for the sake of causing trouble is a waste of time.


i'm not stringing the driver up because i can see the sh!t sandwich he was given - narrow tree lined road, team car trying to move up, he wants to get out of the way and it goes to hell. i can understand the situation from the drivers point of view, i have been there. had the attempt to move up and out of the way worked out, this thread would not exist. but it didn't and Flecha was hit.

where is the outrage about the moto clipping and then dragging the bike the other day?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

heathb said:


> Time to get back to the old school.


define old school - Coppi with limited support on dirt roads or Merckx will full support on modern roads?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> It's no accident, it is pure negligence.


where is your outrage for the moto that dragged a bike the other day?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

coreyb said:


> Who speeds up while trying to pull over?


i do, so the people behind me don't have to slow down.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Let's see, Hoogerland takes 33 stitches, prolly sleeps like sh!t over the last couple of days; and this morning in its infinite wisdom, the Tour suits make Hoogerland take a urine test! I woulda pissed on their shoes if I was Hoogerland.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

The Tedinator said:


> Let's see, Hoogerland takes 33 stitches, prolly sleeps like sh!t over the last couple of days; and this morning in its infinite wisdom, the Tour suits make Hoogerland take a urine test! I woulda pissed on their shoes if I was Hoogerland.


so crashing means it's ok to dope? now i see why Contador is on the ground so much


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

ascii, what's up man? At this rate you're going to replace flatbar as the RBR poster boy for douchebaggery.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

qatarbhoy said:


> ascii, what's up man? At this rate you're going to replace flatbar as the RBR poster boy for douchebaggery.


He's working on getting banned from Procycling.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> i'm not stringing the driver up because i can see the sh!t sandwich he was given - narrow tree lined road, team car trying to move up, he wants to get out of the way and it goes to hell. i can understand the situation from the drivers point of view, i have been there. had the attempt to move up and out of the way worked out, this thread would not exist. but it didn't and Flecha was hit.
> 
> where is the outrage about the moto clipping and then dragging the bike the other day?



I'm stringing him up because his own negligence put him in that position.

He was given a _direct order_ to pull over and _do not pass._ He ignored both of those direct orders. 

I have no sympathy for the driver and his idiocy, not do I have any sympathy for the idiot on the moto who took out Sorensen. 


FWIW, they just now reported on VS that French police are investigating and considering pressing charges.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> I'm stringing him up because his own negligence put him in that position.
> 
> He was given a _direct order_ to pull over and _do not pass._ He ignored both of those direct orders.
> 
> ...


Eurosport reported tp[ of this mornings' broadcast that Team Sky is considering pressing charges, and that Flecha did not receive any kind of apology (unlike Hoogerland).


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Marc said:


> Eurosport reported tp[ of this mornings' broadcast that Team Sky is considering pressing charges, and that Flecha did not receive any kind of apology (unlike Hoogerland).


Can't hardly blame him. The fact that it's a closed race doesn't really absolve drivers of responsibility.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*ample room*



Cinelli 82220 said:


> Thanks for the screenshots.
> I thought he could have pulled over and let the team cars pass. He went against direct orders not to pass. It's no accident, it is pure negligence.


on the opposite shoulder 
would have left enough room for other vehicles to get by


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> He's working on getting banned from Procycling.


for what exactly - i have run support and understand the pressure the drivers feel to stay out of the way of the race. it's not like the driver was intentionally trying to run over the riders while drinking a beer. replaying the event will not change it, and i'm sure the ASO will take away a lesson.

i'd still like to know where the rage thread is on the moto that took out the rider the other day


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> He was given a _direct order_ to pull over and _do not pass._ He ignored both of those direct orders.


where is the tape of this order - it's not like the ASO would hang this guy out to save face or anything...


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> on the opposite shoulder
> would have left enough room for other vehicles to get by


how exactly is he going to get over there - i'd love to hear this.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> where is the tape of this order - it's not like the ASO would hang this guy out to save face or anything...


aw, jeez...give it up...your defense of an obviously incompetent driver is completely unconvincing.

no one is buying it. 

just. let. it. go. mmkay.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Oxtox said:


> your defense of an obviously incompetent driver is completely unconvincing.


wow - it's not defense, it's empathy. i have been in that drivers situation and can understand the pressures in the moment that can lead to a bad choice. 

and still no comments about the moto rider that dragged a bike but i guess that was different, huh?


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> wow - it's not defense, it's empathy. i have been in that drivers situation and can understand the pressures in the moment that can lead to a bad choice.
> 
> and still no comments about the moto rider that dragged a bike but i guess that was different, huh?


ok, the moto guy is a crappy driver needs a public stoning, too.


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## ru1-2cycle (Jan 7, 2006)

Hey, how is Flecha fairing? Is he seriously injured? Is he still alive?


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## ru1-2cycle (Jan 7, 2006)

Did anyone finally stone the reckless driver?


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

he rode in today's stage and issued a statement that you can find on velonew etc, apparently the driver never stopped or apologized.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/07/news/183391_183391


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## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

I vote they tie the driver down to a chair and use that chainsaw dental drill from the Nissan commericial on him without anesthetic.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

the driver apologized to Hoogerland, who honestly was hurt far more than Flecha. maybe the driver meant to hit Flecha for some reason


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## ru1-2cycle (Jan 7, 2006)

J24 said:


> I vote they tie the driver down to a chair and use that chainsaw dental drill from the Nissan commericial on him without anesthetic.


He-he, and have Flecha's coach run over him on a Nissan Leaf until the car runs out of battery...


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> so crashing means it's ok to dope? now i see why Contador is on the ground so much


There is a difference between getting hit by a media car and ending up going through a barbed wire fence while in the lead break and crashing because of normal circumstances. The Tour owes a duty to these riders to make things as safe for them as possible. Huge difference.


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## ru1-2cycle (Jan 7, 2006)

foofighter said:


> he rode in today's stage and issued a statement that you can find on velonew etc, apparently the driver never stopped or apologized.
> 
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/07/news/183391_183391


Thanks, I am very glad that Flecha was not apparently seriously injured and has kept on racing. Man, that is what I call passion and drive to race redefined. Flecha is very courageous!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well he wasn't alongside them*



asciibaron said:


> how exactly is he going to get over there - i'd love to hear this.


until he started to pass

he was behind them and blocking the team cars
he was told to pull over
he decided to pass

you make it sound like he was driving alongside them the whole time, why don't you watch the extended video?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*no, put him in a team kit*



J24 said:


> I vote they tie the driver down to a chair and use that chainsaw dental drill from the Nissan commericial on him without anesthetic.


get back on the same set of road
put him in the back of a pick up
get up to speed
toss him out


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## snosaw (May 30, 2006)

Apologized? Wow. Gee, I bet that made Hoogerland feel okay with it.
IMO, any member of the press who hits a cyclist during a race should be banned from driving any vehicle within 100k of any race for ever. 
And, as a punishment, they should have to edit all posts on RBR since the beginning of the forum...post number one.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Flecha has said today nobody apologised to him yet. He's still really mad. Sky might go to court over this.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

asciibaron said:


> where is your outrage for the moto that dragged a bike the other day?


Where did I say I wasn't outraged? 
This thread is about the car incident. If you want to discuss the Sorensen incident start a thread about it.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

qatarbhoy said:


> ascii, what's up man? At this rate you're going to replace flatbar as the RBR poster boy for douchebaggery.


No kidding.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> No kidding.


i'm a douche because i can understand that the demands of driving in a race are much different than that of your normal commute and couple that with pressure from the director to move on a narrow road...

being able to empathize would be the exact opposite of being a douche - but i guess i should be outraged because i ride a bike - and i'm the douche.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> until he started to pass
> 
> he was behind them and blocking the team cars
> he was told to pull over
> ...


i have - where is the driver supposed to pull over exactly if you take note of the trees along the route. if he pulled ahead, he could drop in between the trees well in the clear.

logic, it confuses.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Last warning on the personal stuff-* for everyone*. Infractions going forward.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

How is it necessary to empathize with the driver?

This is his JOB. If he can't do it and do it properly, he needs to GTF off of the road.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> i have - where is the driver supposed to pull over exactly if you take note of the trees along the route. if he pulled ahead, he could drop in between the trees well in the clear.
> 
> logic, it confuses.


Or he could follow the race directive by staying where he was until it was safe to pull over (although clearly he could have pulled over before his poorly executed pass.)

For that matter, put the damn right blinker on, slow down and pull in behind the commissaries car. 

The point is the driver had several options, but chose to attempt a pass against race directives and ended up taking out two riders. That is inexcusable, every time.


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## Sylint (Jul 27, 2009)

ru1-2cycle said:


> He-he, and have Flecha's coach run over him on a Nissan Leaf until the car runs out of battery...


 
so like....twice maybe?


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

hey...out of curiosity WAS IT a Nissan leaf???????? I am not a car buff so...

If so my wife just pointed out a VERY important factor....an electric car is SILENT.... the riders would not have even HEARD the vehicle


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Touch0Gray said:


> hey...out of curiosity WAS IT a Nissan leaf???????? I am not a car buff so...
> 
> If so my wife just pointed out a VERY important factor....an electric car is SILENT.... the riders would not have even HEARD the vehicle


Nope. I think it was a Skoda.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

m'kay.....I didn't think is was, a leaf wouldn't be able to make a full stage without a charge...or two.......LOL


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

in that case ....from Skoda's website


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> How is it necessary to empathize with the driver?


because i am human. i'm sorry you don't understand empathy and how it makes us better.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

asciibaron said:


> i have - where is the driver supposed to pull over exactly if you take note of the trees along the route. if he pulled ahead, he could drop in between the trees well in the clear.
> 
> logic, it confuses.


On his right, there are no trees. That would be the opposite shoulder mentioned. He could have pulled over there from his position fully behind the riders.

Pulling ahead doesn't help the tree situation since they continue on his left. Actually, they seem to get closer together


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*he can clearly get about 1/3...*



asciibaron said:


> i have - where is the driver supposed to pull over exactly if you take note of the trees along the route. if he pulled ahead, he could drop in between the trees well in the clear.
> 
> logic, it confuses.


...a car on the shoulder on the opposite side along the fence. That means ample room for the other cars to get around. 
and the trees are every what half a kilo? it's not like one just appeared out of nowhere. Besides along the trees there's a bit of a ditch. The other side of the road is flat and has a meter plus/minus of grass

and why pull ahead to drop in between the trees? He was behind them, he could have done that without endangering them. s stated the trees are along the route in a pattern

yes, logic does confuse


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*my last 2 grabs from start of the clip show this*



robdamanii said:


> Or he could follow the race directive by staying where he was until it was safe to pull over (although clearly he could have pulled over before his poorly executed pass.)
> 
> For that matter, put the damn right blinker on, slow down and pull in behind the commissaries car.
> 
> The point is the driver had several options, but chose to attempt a pass against race directives and ended up taking out two riders. That is inexcusable, every time.


1) he is neither in front nor alongside the racers which means he attempted to pass them
2) there is a grassy shoulder available for him to pull over on the riders right

he chose a different path and it ended badly


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> because i am human. i'm sorry you don't understand empathy and how it makes us better.


Howabout empathizing with the guy who had to untangle himself from a barbed wire fence because of this French TV dipsh*t?

Empathy does not mean he gets a free pass on his responsibility to pay attention.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> because i am human. i'm sorry you don't understand empathy and how it makes us better.


being critical of blatantly horrendous judgement doesn't make the rest of us less human.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> and why pull ahead to drop in between the trees?


Slowing down to stop in front of the other cars is bad. Making a dangerous pass to slow down _in front of the riders_ is apparently better


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Empathy does not mean he gets a free pass on his responsibility to pay attention.


and i never said it did. you seem to be unable to comprehend what it means to empathize.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Oxtox said:


> being critical of blatantly horrendous judgement doesn't make the rest of us less human.


what do you want to happen to the driver?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> and i never said it did. you seem to be unable to comprehend what it means to empathize.


Then stop justifying his actions.

There's no, absolutely NO excuse for hitting riders in a closed race course. When it's the breakaway that you take out, that makes it even worse.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

coreyb said:


> Slowing down to stop in front of the other cars is bad. Making a dangerous pass to slow down _in front of the riders_ is apparently better


maybe. maybe not.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Then stop justifying his actions.


i'm not justifying them, i'm able to understand the thought process involved and can see why the driver was doing it. i'm sorry you can't understand the difference.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> i'm not justifying them, i'm able to understand the thought process involved and can see why the driver was doing it. i'm sorry you can't understand the difference.


You "understand" the thought process. We're all saying the thought process is wrong and absolutely inexcusable.

Since you like arguing just for the sake of arguing, there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> what do you want to happen to the driver?


there needs to be repercussions for his negligence.

as I stated earlier, he should lose his job. that's a little traumatic for most of us, and seems to be warranted in this case. 

he should also offer some kind of personal apology for the collision and his failure to stop after the incident happened. hit-and-run is a pretty low-life slob move in my book.

the argumentative stance masquerading as 'empathy' is not gaining you any saint points. continue to take the devil's advocate position if you want, but it's plain to most of us that the guy seriously focked up and needs to pay some kind of price for it.


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## ArkRider (Jul 27, 2007)

And speaking of idiots . . . 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/post/tour-de-france-car-crashing-into-cyclists-draws-laughs-from-espns-michael-smith/2011/07/12/gIQAM3pxAI_blog.html


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ArkRider said:


> And speaking of idiots . . .
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/post/tour-de-france-car-crashing-into-cyclists-draws-laughs-from-espns-michael-smith/2011/07/12/gIQAM3pxAI_blog.html


ESPN is full of tools and asshats. Did you expect anything less?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> You "understand" the thought process. We're all saying the thought process is wrong and absolutely inexcusable.
> 
> Since you like arguing just for the sake of arguing, there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.


i believe the driver's actions are excusable to a degree because i can empathize with him. let me know the next time you are in a bike race driving a support vehicle, maybe you'll understand the stress involved and the amount of distract to driving it takes to keep track of the riders.

it is so easy to armchair without understanding.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

asciibaron said:


> i believe the driver's actions are excusable to a degree because i can empathize with him. let me know the next time you are in a bike race driving a support vehicle, maybe you'll understand the stress involved and the amount of distract to driving it takes to keep track of the riders.
> 
> it is so easy to armchair without understanding.


Right. So it's excusable to run into cyclists. I'll keep that in mind. 

If one isn't just arguing for the sake of arguing with the entire rest of the board, it's plainly simple to see that the press car wouldn't be working if not for the riders that they weren't paying attention to. 

The riders are the star attraction, and the press should damn well be putting their safety first. Failure to do so should result in the driver being fired and barred from ever driving in an ASO sanctioned race again. That is not unreasonable considering how he's shown to be reckless and dangerous to the riders.

That is the absolute bottom line. Sorry you don't get that.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Oxtox said:


> he should also offer some kind of personal apology for the collision and his failure to stop after the incident happened. hit-and-run is a pretty low-life slob move in my book.


they did stop and they did apologize. they did not stop at the scene, but up the road out of the way and both Flecha and Hoogerland were visited that evening.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

Flecha says he's had no apology.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/07/news/183391_183391

The main thing is we can all empathise with the driver's situation. He must feel quite awkward about the whole thing, poor chap!


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Right. So it's excusable to run into cyclists. I'll keep that in mind. .


i guess you've never watched the live feed of major races and seen team cars hit riders, medical cars hit riders, neutral support hit riders. do you really think this was the first time a car has hit a rider? the pro's know that they are riding with multi-ton cars that can not react as quickly or stop so abruptly - being hit is always a concern.

since there is no excuse to run into cyclists, what should be done to the driver of this car? notice he didn't stop.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> how exactly is he going to get over there - i'd love to hear this.


By staying behind the riders, not speeding up and pulling up alongside them. 

Jesus, it's just common sense behind the wheel.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> i guess you've never watched the live feed of major races and seen team cars hit riders, medical cars hit riders, neutral support hit riders. do you really think this was the first time a car has hit a rider? the pro's know that they are riding with multi-ton cars that can not react as quickly or stop so abruptly - being hit is always a concern.
> 
> since there is no excuse to run into cyclists, what should be done to the driver of this car? notice he didn't stop.


So because it's happened before, it makes this guy's stupidity and negligence ok. Good to know.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

This accident simply should not have happened. Over zealous reporters not listening to race radio. Pretty simple to figure out the solution there.. As for the accident it could have been worse. At least he pulled back after hitting him. Could have ran him down along with the rest of the breakaway.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

rufus said:


> So because it's happened before, it makes this guy's stupidity and negligence ok. Good to know.


that's not what i'm saying, rather it is a part of racing and it will continue to happen. the riders know it, the teams know it, the ASO knows it. 

is it ok that car hit the rider - no, but it's part of the game at times and everyone involved knows the risks.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Over zealous reporters not listening to race radio.


do you have a recording of the instructions given, i'd be interested to hear it.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

rufus said:


> By staying behind the riders, not speeding up and pulling up alongside them.
> 
> Jesus, it's just common sense behind the wheel.


do you know how i know you've never driven in a bike race?


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

asciibaron said:


> i believe the driver's actions are excusable to a degree because i can empathize with him. let me know the next time you are in a bike race driving a support vehicle, maybe you'll understand the stress involved and the amount of distract to driving it takes to keep track of the riders.
> 
> it is so easy to armchair without understanding.


Yeah, what it comes down to is the driver made a less than ideal split second decision in the midst of the tricky situation he had gotten himself into. There is no need to stone him or throw him into barbed wire. Some people not only need to put down their pitch forks, but get off their high horse. Also it's pretty safe to say he's aware of his error, will be regretting it for time to come, and his career will suffer.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

asciibaron said:


> do you have a recording of the instructions given, i'd be interested to hear it.



Pretty much every report about the incident claims this was the cause. The car was instructed to stay back and not pass. Plain and simple!?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Cableguy said:


> Yeah, what it comes down to is the driver made a less than ideal split second decision in the midst of the tricky situation he had gotten himself into. There is no need to stone him or throw him into barbed wire. Some people not only need to put down their pitch forks, but get off their high horse. Also it's pretty safe to say he's aware of his error, will be regretting it for time to come, and his career will suffer.


i don't recall setting up this alt :thumbsup:

glad someone else is sensible.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Pretty much every report about the incident claims this was the cause. The car was instructed to stay back and not pass. Plain and simple!?


every report quotes the same source, the guy giving the commands. again, there is NO CHANCE he could be throwing the guy into the barbed wire fence for his error. nope, that would never happen.

next time i drive support for a bike race, you can ride along and play spotter for me, m'kay?


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> do you know how i know you've never driven in a bike race?


Just STFU. 

The guy in the car was behind the riders. he got the radio message to pull over and let the team car by. there was plenty of room on his right to pull over, probably at least half his car width off the pavement. Instead, he speeds up trying to pass them on the left, sees the tree coming, and swerves over into the riders. 

I don't need to have driven in a race to see what he did was a bonehead maneuver. I don't need to have driven in a bike race to know that he had better options and chose not to take them. Everyone who drives a car has to make such decisions probably once a day; just cause it's in a bike race doesn't dramatize or magnify the pressures that driver was under. 

How you can continue to excuse it because you "empathize" with him is beyond me.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Cableguy said:


> Yeah, what it comes down to is the driver made a less than ideal split second decision in the midst of the tricky situation he had gotten himself into. There is no need to stone him or throw him into barbed wire. Some people not only need to put down their pitch forks, but get off their high horse. Also it's pretty safe to say he's aware of his error, will be regretting it for time to come, and his career will suffer.


It wasn'tr split second until he left his position behind the riders, and tried to pass them. He had plenty of time to make decisions when he was behind them, and he made the one to pass them, which put him into the position he ended up in, and then had to make a split second decision. 

But he made the wrong choices when he had plenty of time to consider his options.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> every report quotes the same source, the guy giving the commands. again, there is NO CHANCE he could be throwing the guy into the barbed wire fence for his error. nope, that would never happen.
> 
> next time i drive support for a bike race, you can ride along and play spotter for me, m'kay?


If he was, wouldn't we be hearing the driver of the car protesting that he was given no such order?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

rufus said:


> he got the radio message to pull over and let the team car by. there was plenty of room on his right to pull over, probably at least half his car width off the pavement.


you do know that the trees prevented him from doing exactly what you asked him to do. i think speeding up kept him from running into all 5 of them.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

rufus said:


> If he was, wouldn't we be hearing the driver of the car protesting that he was given no such order?


the driver is wise to stay out of the media - the driver has taken responsibility by not pointing his finger to blame someone, how very unAmerican of him.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> you do know that the trees prevented him from doing exactly what you asked him to do. i think speeding up kept him from running into all 5 of them.


Other side of the road, bonehead.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

rufus said:


> Other side of the road, bonehead.


i thought we were warned about personal attacks...

X X 
X X
X X
X X
EMM
OMM
B F

M 
M


B = break away
E = Europcar team car 
F = French TV car
M = motos
X = other cars.

please explain how he slows and moves to the other side and does not block the other cars? the best option would be to slowly reduce speed and duck in between the trees to keep the cars and motos behind from having to deal with teh bottleneck.

why did the official car allow that car past him in the first place?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Infraction issued. 

I think we are going in circles at this point- so time to retire this one.


----------

