# Ti 'cross frame with braze-ons for racks?



## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

What is the best titanium cross frame/frameset for under $1000 that would offer braze-ons to mount a rear rack?

I'm looking to replace the 20-year old steel Bianchi frame I use as a bad-weather bike and for towing my kids around on/in our Burley trailerbike & Chariot trailer.

My priorities are as follows:

1) Ti frame: weight is secondary, the more lateral stability the better, paint optional. I used to ride Ti MTBs, and want to get off the treadmill of one-season-light frames with fussy finishes I have to worry about scratching. They salt the roads here in Jersey, and I'm tired of worrying about frame corrosion and touching-up every little nick in my paint. 

2) Braze ons (rear mandatory, front optional). My old Bianchi is a road frame w/ caliper brake mount, but has threaded eyelets cut into the dropouts to accomodate a rear rack, which I will need on a new frame to mount the Burley "Moose Rack" that serves as the hitching point for our Piccolo trailerbike.

3) Non-"touring" geometry. My thought is to go with a cross frame so I can mount up beefier tires and use the bike on our local "Rails-to-Trails" networks in the winter. The Bianchi is a classic, road-geometry machine (i.e. responsive, but not twitchy, likes to be leaned, not steered) that is actually fun to ride when it's not loaded down w/ tons of gear. Fact is, this bike will be ridden on the road at least 90% of the time, and unhitched/unloaded for half of that, and probably never "toured" with heavy panniers, so I'd rather err on the side of a responsive ride at the expense of "stability" rather than the other way around.

Besides, if I add a 'cross bike to my stable, I might just be convinced to get out and race some 'cross this winter ;~>

I'm just getting started on frameshopping, so any brand/model suggestions or general insights of relevance would be appreciated.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

rack braze-ons and non-touring geo are kinda working against each other... if ti wasn't mentioned you would hear cries of 'cross check' and 'double cross' and 'cross hairs'. but alas, I think the list of frames fitting all your criteria will be very short


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Pretty sure the "Perform"sky fits the bill, although might lean a bit more towards the touring geo with those long seatstays.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

krisdrum said:


> Pretty sure the "Perform"sky fits the bill, although might lean a bit more towards the touring geo with those long seatstays.




'cept he wants frame AND fork for <$1000


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

OK, let's widen the net a bit:
Let's keep:
Ti as top priority, and price as second (pref. <$1000), and make geometry third.
After all, I'm not looking for crit-bike twitchy: I've got a TCR Composite that fits that bill already.
To be honest, I prefer the intuitive, leaning-biased steering of my old Bianchi frame to the hyper-twitchy steep frame angles of my TCR for everyday riding.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

FatTireFred said:


> 'cept he wants frame AND fork for <$1000


Ah, and upon closer look, no braze-ons on the frame. When this frame goes on sale, you can get it in the $800 range, although I think they have seen a big enough uptick in sales of these frames, that they may not go on sale that low for awhile.


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## PT (Mar 8, 2002)

*Habanero*



BergMann said:


> What is the best titanium cross frame/frameset for under $1000 that would offer braze-ons to mount a rear rack?


Got a Habanero Cross frame for my wife -- it has braze-ons and I like the angles and tire clearance. I'm impressed with the workmanship of this value Ti frame (I'm comparing it to my Seven Muse Cross frame, two Black Sheep mtbs, a Merlin road, two Moots YBBs, and an Everti cross frame. Just to clarify, one of the Moots is my wife's, the Everti is my daughter's, the Merlin and one of the Moots is no longer with us. So sue me, I like Ti too...)

http://www.habcycles.com/cross.html

Definitely worth the look.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

BergMann said:


> OK, let's widen the net a bit:
> Let's keep:
> Ti as top priority, and price as second (pref. <$1000), and make geometry third.
> After all, I'm not looking for crit-bike twitchy: I've got a TCR Composite that fits that bill already.
> To be honest, I prefer the intuitive, leaning-biased steering of my old Bianchi frame to the hyper-twitchy steep frame angles of my TCR for everyday riding.




not a ton of ti out there these days... esp for <1000 for frame and fork. at that price you're looking at a frame for 800-850, and that's even less common. even habaneros start at 900


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

BergMann said:


> OK, let's widen the net a bit:
> Let's keep:
> Ti as top priority, and price as second (pref. <$1000), and make geometry third.
> After all, I'm not looking for crit-bike twitchy: I've got a TCR Composite that fits that bill already.
> To be honest, I prefer the intuitive, leaning-biased steering of my old Bianchi frame to the hyper-twitchy steep frame angles of my TCR for everyday riding.


What about custom? You could enlist one of the asian ti builders to do a custom touring bike for you (XACD and there is another one). Or even a place like Habanero.


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## dismal (Jul 28, 2009)

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fantom_cross_ti.htm

?

Also, why not look at some aluminum? Lot's more options there.


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

@Fred: re: budget: if I can find a $1000 frame that fits the bill perfectly and then have to add a fork, so be it (that's what I was trying to communicate with "frame/frameset" above).

Let's just say that while a total frame/fork budget of $1500 might be in the cards, I don't see myself dropping close to $2k for a Scattante frame / fork combo.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

krisdrum said:


> What about custom? You could enlist one of the asian ti builders to do a custom touring bike for you (XACD and there is another one). Or even a place like Habanero.



Of the 3 I'd much sooner do a Habanero, they are a known quantity with a reputation and a warranty to call on if needed...XACD et al, not so much.

A Habanero CX frame starts at $950.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

BergMann said:


> @Fred: re: budget: if I can find a $1000 frame that fits the bill perfectly and then have to add a fork, so be it (that's what I was trying to communicate with "frame/frameset" above).
> 
> Let's just say that while a total frame/fork budget of $1500 might be in the cards, I don't see myself dropping close to $2k for a Scattante frame / fork combo.


Would you drop 2k on a Lynksey?


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## carlhulit (Nov 5, 2005)

I had a hab ti cross that i recently sold. IT would be great for what your looking for, it tends to the stable end handling wise with longish stays and a low (78mm drop) BB. The headtube is a little on the short side in the 59 and the SA is steep so the are effectively long. If possible i would try and pair it with a longer offset ~50mm fork for better balance and it would serve you well.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

You've got quite a fussy list of things you want out of this bike you want.

That's okay, but you're gonna have to accept it will be hard to locate a stock frame that fits the bill.

My suggestion would be to watch eBay weekly. I see old Litespeed Appalachians up for bid occasionally. It's a Ti 'cross/touring frame. Here's a perfect example:

Litespeed Appalachian

Otherwise, I see your only alternative being custom, and that will be over $1k.


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

@dismal: one word: SALT. Lots of it here Nov-Mar in Jersey. I want an inert material on a frame that stands a chance of living as long as my 20-year old Bianchi - albeit without the finish issues. I loved my old Ti Litespeeds when I was racing MTB-Marathons and want to get back to the longevity of Ti.

@krisdrum: It's the $2k expenditure on my "B-bike" frame that I object to, not the removable frame stickers! Moot point without the braze-ons, I'm afraid.


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

@Everyone: thanks for the input.
The Habanero definitely looks interesting.

@PT: how does the handling on the Habanero compare vs. the Seven & Everti (Ti Fighter or Odyssey?) cross frames? (Obviously size plays a role here, but I'd be interested your impressions.) 

@Peter: yes, it's amazing how complex it can be to simplify your life: I'm trying to stick to a stable of two road bikes: the A) pretty weather / race-day bike and B) everything else bike.
Say I bump my frame budget up to $1500 - which custom builders get your vote for best-bang-for-your-buck in Ti? 
Habanero's website indicates they'll do custom geometry for $1295. I may need it as my preferred effective top-tube length is 58cm.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

BergMann said:


> Say I bump my frame budget up to $1500 - which custom builders get your vote for best-bang-for-your-buck in Ti?
> Habanero's website indicates they'll do custom geometry for $1295. I may need it as my preferred effective top-tube length is 58cm.


At the price point you're wanting-about the only custom frame builder with any rep/warranty is Habanero. $1500 may be a great deal of coin, but most of the big names in Ti are twice that for frame only.

I don't know about CX bikes, but for perspective, roadie Mootses are $2900 for off teh peg frames (+$500 for custom), and the Seven Alaris (frame only) starts at $2500 (custom geometry/spec included).


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

This is more than you want to spend but it's the only thing I can think of. You can put on full fenders and a rack. It's new so you won't find many/any reviews.

http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a...yclocross/titanium-cyclocross---cooper-cx.php


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

carlhulit said:


> IT would be great for what your looking for, it tends to the stable end handling wise with longish stays and a low (78mm drop) BB.


At 42.5 for all but the largest sized, the stay lengths are typical of most cross bikes. The 78 bottom bracket is low. Too low for racing, atmo. Great for everything else. I rode one to work 10 times over three weeks -- 25 miles each way with about 3.5 miles of smooth winding trail. It was awesome for that.

For the OP's targeted use, I think it's about perfect. And except for pedal strike all the freakin' time, it would be a great race bike. Handling through the corners was outstanding until you smack a pedal on the ground (NOTE: This concerns aggressive racing where a rider is likely to lean over and pedal through all corners, not for regular street or smooth trail use).


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

I think "@" is even more annoying than "brifters"... just sayin'


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

FatTireFred said:


> I think "@" is even more annoying than "brifters"... just sayin'


Damn Fred - and Peter thinks I have fussy predilections!
That's cool though, I'm more than willing to humor those offering valuable input.


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

Thanks for the ride-based input on the Habanero Gripped, and thanks to Limba for the Lynskey link.
Lynskey's stock Cooper CX is right in the same price ballpark as a custom Habanero, and the frame angles are pretty darn close (0.3deg steeper HT & ST for Lynskey) but it looks like the "Large" Cooper may come with some advantages over the stock 57cm Habanero. 
Namely: 28.3cm BB clearance (+1cm), 57.5cm effect.top tube (+5mm), 16cm head tube (+2.4cm), and about 1/2 lb less frame weight.

Here are the two geometry charts side by side:
http://habcycles.com/cross.html
http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a/...-cooper-cx.php
Anyone else with cross experience care to compare/contrast what they see?


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

BergMann said:


> Say I bump my frame budget up to $1500 - which custom builders get your vote for best-bang-for-your-buck in Ti?
> Habanero's website indicates they'll do custom geometry for $1295. I may need it as my preferred effective top-tube length is 58cm.


I don't know how some builders can charge so little for titanium frames; it makes me suspicious.

Honestly, you're into cycling too much to bother risking going cheap, even with financial restrictions. I urge you to save your pennies or open your wallet a bit more.

My suggestions for that titanium frame?-Carl Strong, Lynskey, or DeSalvo. And don't forget the eBay route...


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

Peter:
Best hardtail I ever had was a straight-gauge Litespeed Obed: got the frame for $500 brand spankin' new.
Granted that was the prodeal price in 1993 (Retail was $850ish), and aerospace material prices have been on a roller-coaster ride since then, but frankly, I'm a bit "suspicious" that the guys building $4000 Ti frames aren't just drafting in the vapor trail of the "cost is no object" Formula-1 trajectory that carbon fiber framebuilding has taken.

Yes, Ti is a tough material to cut, and is fussy to weld, but the basic building techniques have not changed enough in the last 16 years to justify a 4- to 10-fold increase in the cost of Ti frames. I think that Ti builders have responded to being eclipsed in technical terms (aerodynamics, strength-to-weight...) by Carbon Fiber technology and have gone "boutique" since it's a lot easier to build custom geometries by cutting tubes than by any carbon fiber technique.

Some of the artisanal work that goes into Ti bikes by the likes of Seven, Moots, Erikson & others is beautiful and definitely worth paying a premium for if aesthetics ranks near the top of your list of priorities.
In my case, we're talking about my B-bike, a "use-object." I have no need for Rivendel-esque embellishments, and frankly I've always preferred minimalist aesthetics when it comes to building frames.

I don't want to be penny-wise pound foolish, and thus am open to any constructive criticism here: if anyone knows of QC problems, blown welds, etc. on Habanero bikes, Lynskey's new Cooper "value" frame, or even the Motobecane Cross Ti one poster suggested, then I want to hear about it.

Longevity & support are important to me, so I don't think I'll be sending XACD a box full of cash on a prayer that it all works out over the long haul.


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## gbhk (Jun 9, 2009)

Marc said:


> Of the 3 I'd much sooner do a Habanero, they are a known quantity with a reputation and a warranty to call on if needed...XACD et al, not so much.
> 
> A Habanero CX frame starts at $950.


I could be mistaken but I thought that Habanero was getting his frames from XACD. If not they are definitely chinese made frames. Of course, it's nice to have the warranty and someone with experience to put together the bike for you.

On the other hand, if you are a tinkerer, it's pretty cool to go with XACD, design the bike you want with the tubes and angles you want. I should be getting mine in a couple of weeks. Time will tell if it will ride well last long. I didn't really do it for the price since I could afford whatever I want, I did it for the fun of it and because I like a bike without decals/logos etc... Frame is about 750USD with a few extras and shipping.


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

*Question Part II: the fork*

All right folks, so what is the best bang-for-your buck cross fork for the application I've described above?

Lynskey offers the Alpha-Q CX-10 in a "frameset" deal for an additional $325.
Habanero offers a range of carbon forks from $195-460: Ouzo Pro Cross, Ritchey Comp & WCS, Alpha-Q CX, CX-10 & CX-20.

Again, I'm looking for a salt-corrosion resistant material, so steel isn't in the cards.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=2356738&postcount=7


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## ahilliard (Mar 27, 2009)

XACD is a risk, it's true. I took the plunge and designed my own frame with them this spring - a 68cm, eccentric BB, Rohloff-ready, disc brake cyclocross geometry city bike. It's been great so far, and the build quality looks good to my untrained eyes. They'll put threaded bosses wherever you like...


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

What about that JP Weigle stuff you spray inside the tubes? Does anyone know how that stuff performs?
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/CM407B04-Jp+Weigle+Frame+Saver+Aerosol+Can.aspx

You can get at least two steel forks for the price of one carbon. Maybe ride steel and see how long it lasts.


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## reyesjames (Jul 20, 2007)

BergMann... what did you decide? I am thinking about the Hab cx?


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## dartanyon (Jan 20, 2010)

I too would love to know what you ended up deciding


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## SatisfiedMind (Oct 3, 2009)

*Litespeed Appalachian*

I have a barely used 2002 Litespeed Appalachian that I'd be willing to sell for $1,750 complete. This would include Frame, XT hub Mavic wheels, XT rear derailleur (9 speed), Ultegra front derailleur, and some Aluminum fenders from Velo-Orange. It's all of the original stock components. I bought the bike for the same exact reason (commuting and light touring) but have only used it about 100 miles in the last 6 months. It's a 51cm, but fits me well at 5'8" because of the taller bottom bracket on cross frames. It's also the only Litespeed Appalachian that had disc mounts. I had a Tubus rack on back and loved it. I just never ride it so can't justify keeping it around.

Todd


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