# Weak Climber



## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

Been riding seriously since Feb. Now riding about 14-15 miles four times a week plus generally a 15-20 miler on Saturdays. I have an entry level bike, KHS Flite 223. Been quite content with the bike and am doing ok on the flats and less steep climbs. At 68, I seem to be able to hang with the younger guys, but when we get to the steeper climbs, even the women pass me up. My current cassette is a 12-25, so would a 12-27 or something to that effect, help me? Would like to ride with a group that is a little more aggressive, but don't want to be left in a heap in the middle of the road.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

I've started riding a bit more lately, and also finding that I'm not as strong as I was 20 years ago. 

Does your bike have a triple crankset (50/39/30)? What gear are you using for hill climbing? 

I've never been a spinner, so if I dropped into a 30 range chain ring, it would feel like I was moving backwards. The larger cluster/cassette would make pedalling easier, but not necessarily faster.


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## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

Yes, using triple, 52 42 30. Really, despite my hurt male pride, the speed doesn't matter that much. I usually catch the guys and smoke the gals when we get back on the flat. Would just like to get to the top without being worn out. Was thinking the higher cassette might do the trick. Although I did some riding in my earlier years, I never really was serious. Now, I so enjoy it, that I am becoming an addict. Why else would I worry about cranksets and cassettes? LOL. When I first started, it just seemed easier to be a spinner, so here I am.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Gearing definitely matters and should match your terrain and fitness level, but _how_ we climb also matters.

Here's a link you may find useful.
CYCLING PERFORMANCE TIPS -

Note the section entitled "KEEP THAT CADENCE UP".


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## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

Very interesting and lots of good stuff. I have two or three routes that I ride regularly, and they all have at least a couple of climbs of 1/4 to 1/2 mile each. It seems a lot of the positioning and hand positions, I seem to have done automatically. I am not overly fond of standing. I think part of the problem is that part of my problem is not having a lot of fast burn muscle. When I stand, I find it difficult to recover quickly. Anyway, thanks for the comments.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Leadrunner said:


> I am not overly fond of standing.


Makes two of us. If you watch the pro's, most only stand when necessary - to regain cadence, then they sit. 

Standing does take more energy, but is still a good thing to learn and employ when needed.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

Of course, you may be able to convince yourself that upgrading from a $500 bike to a $5,000 bike will make that little difference that you need to get up the hills just a bit quicker & easier.

Perhaps also slowly increase your distances. You are going out quite a bit, but 15 miles is a bit short. Is that broken in half? 7.5 miles x 2?


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## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

Speaking of cadence, everyone I read says 90. Hells bells, I'm huffing at 70. Is it that critical? I tend to feel pretty good and can cover some ground at about 65.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Comments -

You wonder if you need a lower gear. Are you pedalling too slowly on your hills? If so, then you need lower gears. You're far better off pedalling briskly than pushing your guts out at 40rpm.
If you're overweight, losing weight will make a very big difference.
You can't lose 40 years so your age is a massive handicap. So's mine - I'm 66, love hills but I'm way slower than I was in my 20s to 40s. My attitude for hills never changed though - I love 'em.
You will get better if you ride more hills. Hills are not put there to hurt us, they're there to make us stronger - remember that.
Don't charge up the bottom of the hill. Save the energy for the last 25%.
Downshift (to a lower gear) before you're forced to - energy is wasted pushing too hard.
Pedal by pushing down and pulling back. Forget any "pull up" malarkey unless you're out of the saddle.
Practise your weakness - if riding out of the saddle whups you, do more of it - on every ride.


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## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

I don't shy away from hills. I know they are there to make me stronger, plus, whenever there is an up, there is always a down. I like that. My approach to most hills is to be moving pretty well at the start and try to maintain cadence all the way up. Rather than a pull up on the back of the pedal stroke, I tend to be able to mentally work more of a pull back at the bottom of the stroke. I am a little over weight. I am only 5'5" and when I started, I was about 195. I lost fifteen pounds the first month. Since then, I have been stuck at 180. Would give my eye teeth to see 165 again. So would my trousers.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

How old are these ladies who pass you on the hills? At 52, my heart is not what it was at 30. Are you carrying any excess weight? 

A different bike will probably not make a big difference on your climbing unless you are going from a 30lb to a 16lb one and even then, if you are not putting in time in the saddle to increase your athletic ability, you may not see that much of a difference. 



Mike T. said:


> Comments -
> 
> Hills are not put there to hurt us,


Are you sure about that, because they sure hurt me!


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## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

First, I know there are purests in every sport, but it will be a cold day in hell before I spend five grand on a bike. I like it, but I have a wife of 49 years that I love much more. A divorce of a five grand bike wouldn't speed me up. It would end my cycling career.

I typically only ride once a day. So, I do the whole fifteen in one whack. I get off from work at three most days, so I have been riding in the afternoon, but due the increasing heat, I have switched to riding in the morning about 6:15. Only problem is the morning rides create time constraints. Would make it difficult to do longer rides.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Leadrunner said:


> I don't shy away from hills. I know they are there to make me stronger, plus, whenever there is an up, there is always a down. I like that.


My sig used to be "Hills should just go up".



> My approach to most hills is to be moving pretty well at the start and try to maintain cadence all the way up. Rather than a pull up on the back of the pedal stroke, I tend to be able to mentally work more of a pull back at the bottom of the stroke.


Scraping mud of the bottom of the shoe is the action.



> I am a little over weight. I am only 5'5" and when I started, I was about 195. I lost fifteen pounds the first month. Since then, I have been stuck at 180. Would give my eye teeth to see 165 again. So would my trousers.


A little? Ya think? The young guy good climbers at 5' 5" will be around 130 lbs tops. Load 50 lbs into a bag and try lifting it. Lifting a 40 lb bag of water softener salt was my epiphany to lose weight. Imagine lugging it up EVERY hill in a backpack?


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Leadrunner said:


> Speaking of cadence, everyone I read says 90. Hells bells, I'm huffing at 70. Is it that critical? I tend to feel pretty good and can cover some ground at about 65.


Are you huffing at 70 on the flats, or when climbing? If it's on the flats, you may be over-geared. Try running on either your 42 ring and your usual rear, or a lower gear on the back with your 52. Your knees will thank you in the long run. Concentrate on cadence. The speed will come as you get stronger.

If you're turning 70 climbing, that's really not bad at all.


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## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

I know Mike. Plus, I have to look at that gut and those handles (sorry about the gross out) every day in the mirror. Not sure what it going to take. Beside riding five days a week, I mow two pieces of property each week, and that is not with a rider. I do have a thyroid problem. Hoping when I go to the Doc next month, she will increase the meds to get it working up to par. And, on top of all that, I just quit smoking last October after 50 years. So, I think I have come a pretty good distance in the last nine months.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

Nice going! Not smoking is the best health move you can make! The only eating plan that helped me trim down is by Larry North. Follow this religiously and it works. Here is an example: Larry North's Slimdown for Life: The Real Diet for Real People by Larry North | 9781575664972 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble

I switched my road bikes to compact cranksest to give myself triple gearing in a two ring set. That works, too. Riding more hills and trimming down will take care of climbing woes. Good luck.


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## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

There is one lady that rides with us that is in her mid sixties, but she has been riding since she was in her twenties and still does the occassional triathlon. I don't count her, but the others are probably mid to late forties.

Yes, I am carrying extra weight. Working on that, but it is a struggle.

Not buying another bike for some time. May consider somewhat of an upgrade late in the year, but for right now, just thinking about a different cassette to give me one or two more gears.


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## Leadrunner (Mar 10, 2014)

David, I live in DeSoto. Do you ride with a group or what. We do a casual ride out of John's Bicycles in Lancaster on Saturdays.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Lots of ladies climb well.. Dont feel bad. My wife can out climb me when it gets 9-10% plus. She did it all time on the mountain bike... While I can destroy her on the flats and moderate slopes. 

I did this recent climb .. Passed this lady on the roughly 8% grade... Once it got up to 14-15%... She caught back up.


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## nsfbr (May 23, 2014)

I had missed this thread before, but I saw it today and maybe this will help the OP. First off, I'm 52, which is not 68, but it's also not 38 so perhaps my experience will be relatable. The most important, bar none, things I've learned in the few months I've been riding are cadance and breathing. If I'm actually working, 90 is the lowest, absolute lowest, I let my cadance drop to. And what's more, as I improve that floor is rising. I'm doing just about 100 if I'm really in a good groove.

My downfall is that I still sometimes forget to breathe properly. By that I mean a lot and deeply, in relation to how much effort I'm expending. And prior to any increase in effort I'm going to need. So, before a hill, I'll be breathing for a good 30 seconds or so like I expect I'll need to at the top of the hill. I increase the resp rate and make sure they are good full breaths. 

Then I make sure I'm spinning hard and at a good speed as I hit the hill and down shift as needed to keep my cadance above 100, aiming for 110 or so, and gradually let my leg burn dictate things. If I've done it all right, I'm easily 2 times the speed at the top of the hill than I was when I started this adventure. My focus now (in addition to do what I know I should do in terms of breathing) is to go through the crest, not to it. That is, to keep spinning until I get back up to speed, whatever speed I'm going to by doing after the hill, fast or slow, rather than lose the time I just gained by doing the recovery thing while poking along. 

That's what I do. My average speed for my commutehas increased a bunch, and mainly because I'm not crash and burning on the hills. In any case, I think, if you can, focus on those two things and improve them over time.


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## slow.climber (Nov 25, 2010)

Leadrunner said:


> ... I just quit smoking last October after 50 years. So, I think I have come a pretty good distance in the last nine months.


You've seriously beat the odds in terms of mouth/throat/lung cancer, stroke, heart disease, emphysema, COPD ...

Quitting smoking is a great move. But honestly, it's probably taken a bite out of your aerobic capacity. Long term smoking creates scare tissue in the lungs. Your body does have the capacity to repair some of the damage. You can restore some of what you've lost. But it won't all come back and it come back over night.

You're doing the best thing that you can possibly be doing. You've quite smoking, you're losing weight, you're exercising. All of those things will work in your favor.

Change to lighter gearing and keep up the good work.


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## obed (Jan 12, 2014)

for your age, your weight and the length of time you have been active riding...you have nothing to complain about...just keep doing it and the things you want will come with time...including the weight loss...you are doing great.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

You say your getting back into it. It takes a little time. Just work on the hills. Muscles have memory, it's easier to get back into shape the 2nd time around.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Leadrunner said:


> My current cassette is a 12-25, so would a 12-27 or something to that effect, help me?


It probably won't speed you up.

Some people can run out of gears (Training and Racing with a Power Meter has an anecdote about a racer who got dropped every time his cadence dropped below 70 with power he could otherwise sustain for an hour) although usually it's a power to weight problem (42x28 used to be considered plenty low, and that's like 39x26, 34x23, or 30x20). 

It will probably make life a little more pleasant up-hill although with a triple crank you're better off running a smaller small ring which can produce a bigger change in gearing for less money provided that you have a standard 74mm BCD inner position (recent Shimano triples dont).



> Would like to ride with a group that is a little more aggressive, but don't want to be left in a heap in the middle of the road.


1. Choose a sustainable pace because exceeding your lactate threshold causes a rapid increase in accumulation proportional to the 4th power of exertion. Slow and steady beats short bursts of speed.

2. Increase power. . The last time I was in decent shape I made 27% more power which would translate into a nearly 27% speed increase up the steepest hills. When I'd lapsed completely I was much slower. 10-20 minute threshold intervals work great.

Before you do that you need sufficient (1000 wouldn't be bad) low to moderate intensity base miles in your legs.

3. Reduce weight. Up steep hills your speed is essentially inversely proportional to total weight, so little changes won't be much help with a 100g lighter component making a 200 pound bike + rider combo 0.1% faster although dropping from 200 pounds of middle age spread to your 150 pound racing weight will make you up to 30% faster when riding a 20 pound bike.

Obviously there are genetic limits to that. 2 pounds per inch (140 pounds at 5'10") is a rule of thumb suggesting good morphology for fast climbing, although when you're built like that you won't be fast on flat ground where it's about power (low in absolute terms) to drag (high because you're tall with a lot of surface area) ratio.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Leadrunner said:


> Speaking of cadence, everyone I read says 90. Hells bells, I'm huffing at 70. Is it that critical? I tend to feel pretty good and can cover some ground at about 65.


Cadence requirements are power dependent. Loafing along it matters less. Sprinting you won't get all your muscle fibers involved and produce maximum power until some where around 120 RPM. 

It also affects fatigue. I didn't care much if I averaged 85 or 95 RPM, although I found I could ride threshold intervals on consecutive days at 95.

At lesser efforts lower cadences are more metabolically efficient.

All this assumes you've trained your brain and legs to keep everything coordinated at higher RPMs. As a newly serious cyclist your muscles can fight each other so higher cadences don't work for you.


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

The OP is 68 right? like 68 yrs old and about 40 pounds overweight, maybe at 68 you put things in perspective and don't race ladies in their 40s up mountains. You work at your pace.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

Leadrunner said:


> Speaking of cadence, everyone I read says 90. Hells bells, I'm huffing at 70. Is it that critical? I tend to feel pretty good and can cover some ground at about 65.


Critical? No. Preferable? Yes.

When I returned to cycling after a 35 year hiatus, I heard the same. I bought a cylometer with cadence and found my average was 60. At 72 I thought my legs were going to fly right out of their hip sockets.

I worked at it, repeatedly going for a lower gear, higher spin, until that became comforttable, then gonig for a gear that was lower still. Turns out, "everyone" was right. It did get easier and I did get faster and the hills became much more manageable.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

brucew said:


> Critical? No. Preferable? Yes.
> 
> When I returned to cycling after a 35 year hiatus, I heard the same. I bought a cylometer with cadence and found my average was 60. At 72 I thought my legs were going to fly right out of their hip sockets.
> 
> I worked at it, repeatedly going for a lower gear, higher spin, until that became comforttable, then gonig for a gear that was lower still. Turns out, "everyone" was right. It did get easier and I did get faster and the hills became much more manageable.


It seems cycling is a bit different than running, and riders who take it up in their 50's , 60's or 70's if they put the time in are often able to do things as well if not better than younger riders. Maybe it's because they have more time to commit and can be more focused on the task, but I've seen some very impressive cylists who are in their 60's and 70's.


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## red elvis (Sep 9, 2010)

lose weight and keep riding on a regular basis. work on your intervals - ride hard for a couple of minutes and then recover. do it over and over again. don't mind the women or anybody who are passing you - it's normal for a beginner. Don't get discourage because of your age. I've seen guys about your age who can still climb the FWY330 to 18 towards Big Bear Lake.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I pretty much ride solo, but I might mosey up to John's Bicycles some Saturday. I look just like the guy in the avatar. Thanks for the heads up. I look forward to meeting you.


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## slow.climber (Nov 25, 2010)

Given your age, medical history, and the fact that you're exercising hard to improve your situation, you can probably convince your doctor to help you with a simple test.

Your MD can order a Spirometry test,

Spirometry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This will tell you a lot about how well your lungs are functioning. That's probably your limiting factor. That and the 40 extra lbs you're still carrying ;-)

Don't know what their protocol is for a patient your age but you might also be able to convince them to schedule a stress test. It would be best to do it on a stationary bike, not a treadmill. This will give you a very clear sense as to how hard you can push your body. You'll get a print out showing how many watts you're generating at different levels of fatigue.

Knowing what your power curve looks like will allow you to easily figure out how fast you should be able to climb a hill,

Bike Calculator


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Leadrunner said:


> I know Mike. Plus, I have to look at that gut and those handles (sorry about the gross out) every day in the mirror. Not sure what it going to take. Beside riding five days a week, I mow two pieces of property each week, and that is not with a rider. I do have a thyroid problem. Hoping when I go to the Doc next month, she will increase the meds to get it working up to par. And, on top of all that, I just quit smoking last October after 50 years. So, I think I have come a pretty good distance in the last nine months.


We applaud you for everything you're doing. Don't give up! You're an inspiration to a lot of people. Set small attainable goals and when they're met, set others.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

Your original question was about the cluster/cassette. 

You're running a 52 42 30 X 12-25

You can go up on the gearing if it makes you more comfortable and your dérailleurs can support it, although you are getting very close to 1:1 gearing as it is. Perhaps a 12-30 cassette. 

However, it will take you a bit longer to get up the hills. I generally think of hills as being nature's design to stress you just a little bit, so if you're puffing a bit, but still getting up the hills, perhaps that isn't the worst thing in the world. No pain, no gain.

I've started pulling a cargo trailer a bit. It does add a little extra resistance. A couple of weeks ago, I got a crazy idea to pull my cargo trailer for a 100 mile RT ride, the first hundred mile ride I've done in over a decade, and the first time pulling the trailer. I certainly was feeling it by the end of the ride (most of which was flat, but hit hills at the beginning and end). Anyway, I think it did help me a lot for overall endurance.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

You're doing fine, all things considered. You have to have some perspective, and some patience. You just quit smoking 8 months ago. You've begun to recover some lung function, but improving it more will take more time. There's damage to rebuild. It won't all come back, but it will keep improving.

You're still way overweight -- borderline obese on the BMI charts. Losing more weight will make the biggest difference in climbing, and it will help with all the other health issues, too.

Oh, and you're 68 and haven't exercised much for a long time.

Keep riding, eat a little less. Have fun.


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## robnj (Sep 26, 2013)

I find that when my cadence drops below 60 on a hill, I prefer to stand and get myself cranked up a little in pace, then sit again. 

I employ some mental tricks to get me through the hills. 1) focus on an object uphill (road sign, rock, even a stray bottle) and lock on it as you climb. For some reason it makes you forget the hill and it feels faster. 2) I speak under my breath a marching cadence (1-2-1-2), almost like a military march. This seems to psych me up and maintain the pace.

There is one 9-10% hill near me up the back side of a reservoir dam that when I got back into riding used to wipe me out. I thought my heart was going to come out of my chest. 
I made it part of my routine that every ride I end with this hill (up this hill and back), no matter what. The downhill part is your reward, since I can hit ~40mph easy. I forced myself to stand in some portions, just to get the practice. After several weeks, this hill became just a small ant hill. Standing was now slowing my pace down. I still finish my weekday rides with this hill. 

Whatever you do, keep up the good work!


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Wow. Quit smoking, escercising and dropping weight! Awesome! However you get over a hill is great! It will come... I quit a few years ago after 25 years of a pack a day. I was able to lift as a smoker but since I quit the difference in my ability to do endurance sports has increased dramatically. That will come back and improve as you stretch out from when you quit. Congratulations! What you are doing isn't easy and it is a monster accomplishment toward improving your health. I am assuming you are doc checked and the like going into this...


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