# Campy EPS Record Experience & General Electric In General



## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

Just wanted to write my experience with electric drive trains and why they might not be a good idea at this time. Purchased Record EPS last year in July, got my new bike just finished building. Have but 200 miles on bike and that's when the issues started to happen. While bike was sitting at work when I came out to ride home there was a yellow light glowing (oh boy!) Did the trouble procedure tap controls hit mode button briefly still same light with buzzing. Front der. would not move but would just hear a clicking. When trying rear der. got solid green light on battery der. would move but not with each press. Then all of the sudden it would shift on its own. While riding I continued to press random buttons got all lights off and everything seemed to work. Getting up the next day removed magnet got yellow light with buzzing and then green light with rear der.moving randomly. Did trouble shooting putting magnet in for 30 seconds clicked buttons removed got yellow light again then green frt der. would not move but rear would randomly. At this TIME I then called Campy NA said if cables are bent to sharply because its digital might cause this issue. Makes since but cables really were not bent to sharply. Took everything off bike blew connectors out with compressed air assembled on table removed magnet got no light. I'm thinking okay maybe it was a connector issue specifically the red to interface unit. I removed all wires on bike except that one and reconnected outside of frame still got lights. So, red might have been it. Waited all night still no lights decided to put back on bike immediately removing magnet yellow light again with clicking. Time for warranty I'm thinking to expensive to mess with. Had to send in to place I bought it from. Now here's the issue. I purchased last year just started using it so 1 year of warranty is gone with really no miles. When buying frame I thought about electrical gremlins but said hay 20years in development they got everything worked out. Well my frame is electric only can not go to cable drivetrain so stuck with electric. The warranty seems way to short because if you factor the amount of time you ride due to weather in you live in areas that get snow you do not really use the system that much so 3 years on system 2 years battery seems like consumer loss there. Also, Cadel Evans had a mechanical or electrical now using the new 9070 in the Giro costing him second place. So, this is not just a Campy thing. So, my thought is think before jumping into electric because the better shifting might not be worth the aggravation when something goes wrong because of long turn around time to get parts replaced, and the longevity of units have not proven themselves so when warranty runs out pretty expensive fix when something breaks, sucks. I do realize some people have had no issues so far but something to think about.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

gofast2wheeler said:


> At this TIME I then called Campy NA said if cables are bent to sharply because its digital might cause this issue. Makes since but cables really were not bent to sharply.


No, this makes no sense whatsoever. It's in fact complete BS.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

So, if you bend cables in half that will have no impact on performance. I myself do not really know and will not try because I do not want to damage wire harness. Specifically they said if you we're using zip ties around cables that might cause some issues.


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

No, that really doesn't make sense.

With mechanical, it's understandable, for a few reasons, but for electronic, due to the method in which signals are passed through wires (as long as there's wire b/w two points, it'll conduct a signal), bends shouldn't make any difference whatsoever - unless points not adjacent are touching - although that wouldn't have a huge effect either.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

I don't know the exact construction, but if it is stranded, sharp bends could break individual wires. That might change the resistivity such that it would be different from what the system is designed for. Other than that, I don't think bending or pinching wouldn't make any difference.

However, one thought does come to mind. What if there is a slight split in the cable jacket such that it grounds out?

Regarding e-shift systems in general, remember that none of this is new technology. It is only applying existing technology to a different application. Servo and stepper motor technologies have been around for decades. Waterproofing technologies have been around for decades. This just isn't new stuff. That said, you have electronics and computerized systems being developed by companies that had previously only done mechanical systems. I know Campagnolo went outside for assistance with the drive mechanism, but I don't know what Shimano did. Also, consider the relative numbers of hardware failures compared to the total population. I would have to figure that failures represent a small part of the population. A handful of people having trouble would not deter me.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Great. Another one of these fabulous stories.......... "I've got a problem, so therefore all of these products are crap."


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## rm -rf (Feb 27, 2006)

If you wanted anyone to actually read this, you needed paragraphs. Punctuation is good, too.

*The OP's post with paragraphs:*

Just wanted to write my experience with electric drive trains and why they might not be a good idea at this time. Purchased Record EPS last year in July, got my new bike just finished building. 

Have but 200 miles on bike and that's when the issues started to happen. While bike was sitting at work when I came out to ride home there was a yellow light glowing (oh boy!) Did the trouble procedure-- tap controls, hit mode button briefly, still same light with buzzing. Front der. would not move but would just hear a clicking. When trying rear der. got solid green light on battery der. would move but not with each press. Then all of the sudden it would shift on its own. 

While riding I continued to press random buttons got all lights off and everything seemed to work. Getting up the next day removed magnet got yellow light with buzzing and then green light with rear der.moving randomly. Did trouble shooting putting magnet in for 30 seconds clicked buttons, removed, got yellow light again, then green frt der. would not move but rear would randomly. 

At this TIME I then called Campy NA said if cables are bent too sharply because its digital might cause this issue. Makes since but cables really were not bent to sharply. Took everything off bike blew connectors out with compressed air assembled on table removed magnet got no light. 

I'm thinking okay maybe it was a connector issue specifically the red to interface unit. I removed all wires on bike except that one and reconnected outside of frame, still got lights. So, red might have been it. Waited all night still no lights decided to put back on bike immediately removing magnet yellow light again with clicking. 

Time for warranty: I'm thinking too expensive to mess with. Had to send in to place I bought it from. Now here's the issue. I purchased last year just started using it so 1 year of warranty is gone with really no miles. When buying frame I thought about electrical gremlins but said hay 20years in development they got everything worked out. 

Well my frame is electric only can not go to cable drivetrain so stuck with electric. The warranty seems way to short because if you factor the amount of time you ride due to weather in you live in areas that get snow you do not really use the system that much so 3 years on system 2 years battery seems like consumer loss there. 

Also, Cadel Evans had a mechanical or electrical now using the new 9070 in the Giro costing him second place. So, this is not just a Campy thing. 

So, my thought is think before jumping into electric because the better shifting might not be worth the aggravation when something goes wrong because of long turn around time to get parts replaced, and the longevity of units have not proven themselves, so when warranty runs out, pretty expensive fix when something breaks, sucks. I do realize some people have had no issues so far but something to think about.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks for breaking it up into paragraphs very appreciated. As to the comment I have a problem all products are junk, never really said that. My point is when going electric the warranty and issues you might have should be considered. I did that think about it and now in retrospect the warranty really stinks considering the amount of time you might ride over the warranty period. I think the product works great but there seems to be these issues are being reported more and more and again the longevity of product in real world testing has not been validated. I know the pros have been using it but heck do you think they will come out and say we had to replace such and such, o'course not.

Something to think about unless money is no object and you can just buy new components when they fail.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

My di2 has been working flawlessly for 3 years now and so has the others (many) in our group who have them. You may not have literally said "junk" but you certainly imply that your bad experience translates to a general problem. My point is that there is no general problem. Just your bad experience, which could very well be one off, bad install, or something else.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Also, the fact that Cadel Evans had a problem with an e-shift system doesn't mean a lot. What did you say when Andy Schlek threw a chain at the TdF a few years back? Mechanical systems were junk?


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

There's no relevance with throwing a chain and a electrical component just flat out not working. Again, don't infer words that were not spoken as in junk. Again if Shimano and Campy thought the product could last they should have a longer warranty say anywhere from 5-10 years. Also, in the tour of Cali Amgen, top tree riders one rider had to have a bike replaced for drivetrain issue. After speaking with mechanic his Campy EPS front def. stopped working.I see trend. Can' t remember the last pro race i watched before electric where I say so many brake downs. Oh well, that's my opinion.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

In summary, you claim all electronic shifting systems are unreliable. We disagree. I do agree that your spell check is unreliable.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

gofast2wheeler said:


> There's no relevance with throwing a chain and a electrical component just flat out not working.


Yes, there is. Something didn't work correctly in order for that to happen.



gofast2wheeler said:


> Again, don't infer words that were not spoken as in junk.


Not spoken, but you sure were working hard to leave an impression.



gofast2wheeler said:


> Again if Shimano and Campy thought the product could last they should have a longer warranty say anywhere from 5-10 years.


I think that would be unprecedented for electronics gear in general. I doubt if you won't find any warranties anywhere close to that for TV's, computers, sound systems, etc. And all those are stationary indoor devices.



gofast2wheeler said:


> Also, in the tour of Cali Amgen, top tree riders one rider had to have a bike replaced for drivetrain issue. After speaking with mechanic his Campy EPS front def. stopped working.I see trend. Can' t remember the last pro race i watched before electric where I say so many brake downs. Oh well, that's my opinion.


Define stopped working. You can have a stone wedged in a derailleur mechanism, mechanical or e-shift, and it will quit working. What you say is too vague to base a conclusion on.

Sorry, you seem to be trying to mount a smear campaign. That's the way I see it.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

My take away from this is, don't buy a groupset and sit on it for a year.

I'm wondering if there have been any firmware updates for Campy in the time that's gone by?


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

Well there's your problem. You bought EPS instead of Di2... You really think the Italians can outdo the Japanese in electronics?

This is why I run Di2 on one bike and Super Record mechanical on the other. The right tool for the job.

But it does suck, I agree. Get it warrantied, sell it and get Di2.

Cadel lost because he is 10 years older the the field. (I'm 38 BTW).


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

carbonLORD said:


> Well there's your problem. You bought EPS instead of Di2... You really think the Italians can outdo the Japanese in electronics?


ROTFLMAO, you have got to be kidding.
Di2 isn't that short for Died Twice today?


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

This thread is taken a turn for the worst. Let me state this is not a smear campaign toward Campy. Personally the group worked great and I was completely in awe in how well it shifted. The point was this should be kept in mind when thinking about electric. The issues that can happen, the expense of replacing parts because warranty is very short, and the down time to get it warrantied if it is still covered. My last group I had 15 years Campy Chorus 9 speed and had no issues or down time with it except routine maintenance. 

Again, I like riding not having my bike disassembled waiting for merchant to call me back to say new parts are in. Something to think about, and I do understand not everybody has issues but again these issues would not be present if I stayed with cable. Do you go with reliability and simplicity or high tech and deal with the issues if and when they arrive and maybe after warranty is over looking at dropping a few hundred to replace a part that maybe should use lasted for 10 years but didn't. ( purely speculative at this time as longevity of electric drive trains has not really been determined yet in real world use) 

My opinion, should have stayed cable, that is shaped obviously by my negative experience were someone who has had positive experience with electric would strongly disagree.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

mikerp said:


> ROTFLMAO, you have got to be kidding.
> Di2 isn't that short for Died Twice today?


If it does... I blame your mechanic ;-)


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

flatlander_48 said:


> I don't know the exact construction, but if it is stranded, sharp bends could break individual wires. That might change the resistivity such that it would be different from what the system is designed for. Other than that, I don't think bending or pinching wouldn't make any difference.


Correct, extreme bends on stranded cable will open up the wiring bundle leading to increased resistance. I doubt that this is the issue on a newly installed system, this is typically something one will see over time. There are mil specs for cable bends related to cable types (aircraft/aerospace applications).

@OP my guess is you are looking at an intermittent short/break in your cabling/connectors. Any chance you have a multimeter/ohm meter? These things can be tough to find and have cost millions in some industries (large systems). But the process is the same. Do end to end resistance checks on the cabling in a "resting" state, do the same checks while moving the cable (wiggle test). Could be a cable issue, could be a cable/connector, or connector/connector.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

If this were an externally wired system, I have seen some folks take up slack with a series of festoons and cable tie them together. But, from what I can tell, this is an e-shift frame.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

mikerp said:


> ROTFLMAO, you have got to be kidding.
> Di2 isn't that short for Died Twice today?


Didn't they have to shrink wrap the connectors on the original system? How crass...


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

flatlander_48 said:


> Didn't they have to shrink wrap the connectors on the original system? How crass...


This comment has nothing to do with the OP's post, or the current generation of Di2.

Isn't Campy still on it's "Original System"? While Shimano is on its 3rd.

I'll say it again, from the 2 wired "sealed" e-tube system, to its easy to use software, to it's *stock* internal battery, Shimano gets the higher marks for this type of product.

Still, this doesn't help the OP.

The only advice I can give is, get it sorted, sell it and buy Di2 instead. Or, if you're really turned off by EPS now, dump the derailleurs and levers and go mechanical.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

It has to with when Shimano first introduced Di2. They rushed the first Dura-Ace system to market, hence the comment about shrink wrap for waterproofing. Campagnolo never required that. Shimano fixed that on their 2nd iteration, but if they hadn't introduced the product prematurely redesign would not have been necessary. Campagnolo originally had multi-shift capability, which Shimano adopted later. Campagnolo has a much better arrangement to limp home after a total electronics failure in that you can decouple and recouple the rear derailleur on a different sprocket by hand as needed. As I understand, with Di2 if things stop moving, that's where your rear derailleur stays until your system is repaired. The rear derailleur will also decouple if you fall on it to minimize, and maybe even prevent, damage.

From what I can see, Campagnolo hasn't needed a redesign of its hardware and connectors. And, why would you need access to the programming? And, if you did, do you really want to buy a $250+ interface unit?


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> Well there's your problem. You bought EPS instead of Di2... You really think the Italians can outdo the Japanese in electronics?


Campagnolo hired a Swiss firm to consult with the motors and drive hardware. It has to do with their philosophy of retaining The Knowledge. They keep current technologies away from Asia.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

flatlander_48 said:


> why would you need access to the programming? And, if you did, do you really want to buy a $250+ interface unit?


Um, so I can access the multiple multishift options available. Have you ever used the software or are you just reading Bicycle magazine?

The old programming unit was $250+. The current one I managed to find $120 (shop around, its the _internets_). It allows me to set up multishift in 2, 3 or unlimited etc etc (You seem pretty good at reading the manual so I wont recite it).

But, sine I do have _experience_ with it, I'll let those that have not know that the PC Linkage device automatically uploads the software and thus far 3 firmware updates with the click of a button. Furthermore, if I wish to set up TT shifters or a climbers switch, that is what this device is for.

I have already done the set up for numerous friends and some clients of which paid for the unit so the cost certainly does not outweigh the means.

Shimano didn't release the product to early, they did it first and made updates based on real world experience. I could care less if Campy came up with the idea first. Have you seen the size of the motors on DA 9000 now? Yes, innovation and updates.

You really want to tell me how great that giant battery(brain) is better then the internal seat post battery? Yes, innovation and updates.

You seem to think its a contest between systems when I am only pointing out the benefits of one versus the other and the choices I would (and have) personally made.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

flatlander_48 said:


> Campagnolo hired a Swiss firm to consult with the motors and drive hardware. It has to do with their philosophy of retaining The Knowledge. They keep current technologies away from Asia.


So Campy added another country into the mix... And the Japanese are certainly not known for making the smallest computerized components available... This is great.

I also like that people have had to modify their brand new bikes to accept the thicker cables Campy uses. I guess larger motors, bigger batteries and fatter cables are the innovation EPS sought.

It sounds to me like you have no experience with either group.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/i-rode-eps-267503.html


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> You seem to think its a contest between systems when I am only pointing out the benefits of one versus the other and the choices I would (and have) personally made.


It is a difference in design philosophies. I suspect that Campagnolo wanted to make sure that people not mess with the system programming. When you're dealing with low level programming, it's very easy to make a mistake. The way Shimano does it, you are not actually programming. You're loading pre-programmed modules. If I were Campagnolo, I would be real wary of allowing people to make unauthorized changes, having something go wrong and then declaring the entire system junk. That's what I believe is their motivation for structuring the system as they have as there is no shortage of people who wish to declare Campagnolo products as junk due to a knee-jerk reaction.

Anyway, it is never clear cut. If you value being able to change the configuration of your system, then Shimano is your system. If you value having a Plan B if there is a complete hardware failure, then Campagnolo is your system. There are other things, but these are 2 that come to mind. Obsolescence also comes into play. If you bought an original Dura-Ace Di2 system, you're already 2 generations behind. Plus, are any of the recent program tweaks backward compatible to the Gen 1 systems?


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

Riding a system for 45 minutes and actually owning and using its software are two completely different things.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

flatlander_48 said:


> It is a difference in design philosophies. I suspect


You suspect...



flatlander_48 said:


> When you're dealing with low level programming, it's very easy to make a mistake.


You have to use it first. From this comment, you have not.



flatlander_48 said:


> If I were Campagnolo


No offense but thankfully you are not.



flatlander_48 said:


> Obsolescence also comes into play. If you bought an original Dura-Ace Di2 system, you're already 2 generations behind. Plus, are any of the recent program tweaks backward compatible to the Gen 1 systems?


If you bought a first generation anything (computer, TV, Automobile etc) do you expect a product made a half decade later is supposed to upgrade your old item to something "apples to apples" current?

*Never buy a first year design.*

As far as I can tell Campy is still on a first year design.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

I just want to chime in. Let's relax a little. When I get the system back I will post what the issue was. I have used both systems they both work great, with Shimano being more customizeable but that will probably come with the next iteration for Campy. I can not go mechanical because bike is only electric not both ways. Back to my original post this is not a knee jerk reaction but a monetary concern with the price paid and the undetermined longevity of the Campy system in real world settings. Buying first gen. I also believe is not a good idea but figured 20 plus years in development hey it should at least be reliable but stuff happens. My decision right now is not Shimano works better vs Campy or the other way but dependability driven. Right now turned off by Campy EPS but still have faith they will come through with a new unit that works properly for some time. Stay tuned.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

No worries, I'm sure everyone following the thread will be happy to hear of the problem and its resolve. Besides, whats a bike forum without some chatter 

Good luck to you and if you need any assistance PM me and I'll pass along the Campy NA reps info.

Cheers!


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> Riding a system for 45 minutes and actually owning and using its software are two completely different things.


Had you read the whole thread, much of what I said was based on actually talking to members of the US Campagnolo staff who were in attendance and the material they had that was intended for trade consumption. It also included the writings of those who were actually in attendance on Taormina, including Leonard Zinn. He originally described the derailleur decoupling feature as someone actually fell during one of the rides and it functioned as designed. They recoupled the system. restarted the electronics and off they went.

Further, this is NOT an apples to apples comparison. It can't be when the relative sizes of the 2 companies differ by greater than 10:1. Campagnolo can't afford to throw a premature product into the market place as Shimano did with Gen 1. If that product were not premature, then why was Ultegra Di2 so different? Shimano had no reason to rush EXCEPT for having a product in the marketplace before Campagnolo. They did this because they knew they would not compare well against Super Record EPS and Record EPS.

But, Shimano didn't do their customers any favors by having the second tier Ultegra Di2 more advanced than Dura-Ace. Then, they introduced 11spd which further compounds the timing and choices, to say nothing of obsoleting many of the wheels people have if they want to migrate.

The way it stands, I don't think any of the big 3 are better than the other 2. The world doesn't work like that anymore. All have features or capabilities that some would weight more highly than others. That said, I do think Shimano fumbled their marketing strategy and they counted on the size and inertia of their installed base to bail them out. However, once they jumped the gun with the Gen 1 Dura-Ace system, that set the rest of the events in motion.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

gofast2wheeler said:


> I just want to chime in. Let's relax a little. When I get the system back I will post what the issue was. I have used both systems they both work great, with Shimano being more customizeable but that will probably come with the next iteration for Campy. I can not go mechanical because bike is only electric not both ways. Back to my original post this is not a knee jerk reaction but a monetary concern with the price paid and the undetermined longevity of the Campy system in real world settings. Buying first gen. I also believe is not a good idea but figured 20 plus years in development hey it should at least be reliable but stuff happens. My decision right now is not Shimano works better vs Campy or the other way but dependability driven. Right now turned off by Campy EPS but still have faith they will come through with a new unit that works properly for some time. Stay tuned.


There is nothing that is dead reliable. Nothing. Not cars, not airplanes, not space vehicles, nothing. There are devices at have a high degree of reliability, but you pay for that in terms of redundancy or superior materials or many design and test iterations. It is all based on probability, but it is NOT absolute.

Also, electronics do not sit well. You can seal the packaging, add dessicant, etc., but the fact is it is better for the bits and pieces to be in service. I can't say exactly what happens at a microscopic or granular level, but you never know what is oxydizing or breaking down deep in the heart of the system.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> So Campy added another country into the mix... And the Japanese are certainly not known for making the smallest computerized components available... This is great.
> 
> I also like that people have had to modify their brand new bikes to accept the thicker cables Campy uses. I guess larger motors, bigger batteries and fatter cables are the innovation EPS sought.
> 
> It sounds to me like you have no experience with either group.


The fact that frames have to be modified isn't down to bulkier cables as EPS & 7970 are the same size. The frames we produce take EPS with no modification necessary, despite being designed with 7970 in mind. The problem is when a frame originally designed with mechanical in mind is made electronic compatible. One of our other frames had to have the rear stays redesigned completely to allow internal electronic cabling, despite mechanical being no issue.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> The fact that frames have to be modified isn't down to bulkier cables as EPS & 7970 are the same size. * The frames we produce take EPS with no modification necessary, despite being designed with 7970 in mind.* The problem is when a frame originally designed with mechanical in mind is made electronic compatible. One of our other frames had to have the rear stays redesigned completely to allow internal electronic cabling, despite mechanical being no issue.


Agreed. Campagnolo made this point at introduction. They did not want to try to force an additional standard. Therefore they designed EPS to be compatible with Di2 mountings. Makes perfect sense, given the size of their respective market base.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

You drank the Kool-Aid and liked it. It's cool, I see it _all_ the time.

Attend all the seminars you like, it will never trump real world experience no mater how many names you drop.

When I was at Interbike last year, there was a lot of Kool-Aid in the room but until I attended "Demo Days" all of the chit chat was just a brochure.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

ultimobici said:


> The frames we produce take EPS with no modification


Good for *your* frames. Others share a different experience...

Just one of many out there... and this company actually makes a EPS version this year.

Tony's Cycling Blog: Campagnolo EPS installation on Specialized Venge


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> You have to use it first. From this comment, you have not.


You took the statement out of context.

_When you're dealing with low level programming, it's very easy to make a mistake. *The way Shimano does it, you are not actually programming. You're loading pre-programmed modules.*

_They have prevented the user from going into the actual code. You're selecting and loaded pre-programmed modules. You are NOT doing programming. This is different from people hacking into the assembler and servo (or stepper, can't remember which Shimano uses) code. While people do this (and its got to be a pretty small number as how many folks can program at that level?), what do you bet that it voids your warranty?


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

No one is talking about hacking the system.

If I add a TT or climbers switch, that is what the PC module is for, in addition to multishift patters and firmware updates.

I'm sure Campy offers the same level of customization (as I admittedly only have experience adding the TT shifter and Climbers Switch to Di2).

But you wanted to know why anyone would buy the PC module and I already explained that.

Where you read into anyone hacking either system is beyond me.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> You drank the Kool-Aid and liked it. It's cool, I see it _all_ the time.
> 
> Attend all the seminars you like, it will never trump real world experience no mater how many names you drop.
> 
> When I was at Interbike last year, there was a lot of Kool-Aid in the room but until I attended "Demo Days" all of the chit chat was just a brochure.


Not being part of the industry, I have to actually spend effort to find information. What I have said comes from several different sources. Further, I don't go around bad-mouthing Shimano. Their products are usually, not always however, pretty decent. On the other hand, MANY here don't pass up an opportunity to say something negative about Campagnolo. Why is that?

And, as long as I have a choice, you won't see me going back to Shimano. It's like that for a lot of people.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

You must have missed the part where I state I own both groups and find Campy to make a better mec and Shimano to make a better elec.

I never bad mouthed anything.

The problem is you are simply reiterating what you heard rather then sharing what you've done.

No one needs a recap.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> Good for *your* frames. Others share a different experience...
> 
> Just one of many out there... and this company actually makes a EPS version this year.
> 
> Tony's Cycling Blog: Campagnolo EPS installation on Specialized Venge


Evidently someone in Specialized's QC team in Taiwan isn't doing their job properly. If the frames were produced to the long published specs that Shimano required then EPS would fit with no issues. 

The bottle cage hole does not need to be any bigger than that required by a Di2 setup. Campagnolo deliberately followed the same standard to avoid complicating the issue. To do otherwise would have been foolhardy after frame builders had already started making electronic only frames.

Judging by the pics of the Specialized on that blog, I wouldn't take any notice of his mechanical opinion either.

http://www.shimano.com/publish/cont...adFile.html/10) Di2 Wire Kit Instructions.pdf
Technical FAQ: Installing electronic shifting on a bike without internal cable routing


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> No one is talking about hacking the system.
> 
> If I add a TT or climbers switch, that is what the PC module is for, in addition to multishift patters and firmware updates.
> 
> ...


No, hacking is one of the motivations for people to buy the interface. Clearly the numbers of people buying the interface unit is much, much smaller than the number of people with Di2 systems. Actually the unit originally sold for close to $300, maybe $289. Evidently new the list is $200. It's only because they have been around for a while or people have grown tired of them that they start to show up on auction sites and other places. If Shimano was really keen on more people having the interface unit, the price would be a lot cheaper or they would have included it in with the group.

No, the Campagnolo system is sealed. They do not offer an interface unit for reprogramming. As I said, I doubt if they want folks messing inside of the EPS systems.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

carbonLORD said:


> You must have missed the part where I state I own both groups and find Campy to make a better mec and Shimano to make a better elec.
> 
> I never bad mouthed anything.


There are MANY on various forums who go out of their way to do that. It's like it's sport to them. Further, I don't know you or what you would say.



carbonLORD said:


> The problem is you are simply reiterating what you heard rather then sharing what you've done.
> 
> No one needs a recap.


I don't think that's the case. Many people who ride Shimano tend to avoid anything Campagnolo. Once they're made up their minds for some crazy-ass reason, it's like set in concrete. Nothing penetrates. I think the thumb levers scare them off and it's downhill from there. As an example, that decoupling and manual repositioning of the rear derailleur usually comes as a surprise. Price is also almost always thrown out and Campagnolo is touted as crazy expensive, yet is been shown many times that Record systems are very close to Dura-Ace systems (as Campagnolo intended) and that can be verified by a little online searching. People talk about how expensive Campagnolo chains are or the price of the peening tool. The thing is, Wippermann and KMC make very good 10spd and 10spd/11spd chains, respectively, and quick disconnect links. I've used both with no problems.

I mentioned Zinn as he was the first to recount that story about the decoupling mechanism. I would say that he has a pretty good reputation and as a custom bike builder, he builds what people specifically want rather than trying to sell what's on the shelf. However, even with him, I look for corroboration. We can't ride everything. There's just too much stuff out there.

Name dropper? Then why did you mention Interbike? OK, Taipei International Cycle Show, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2011.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

Okay, just received the group set back, all the electric parts. The issue was the battery/brain. I returned unit back to place of purchase they tested whole setup with new parts and the brain was the component causing the issue according to them. They said when the brain was replaced it worked fine no solid yellow, green, or shuttering in rear der. when shifting to inner most cog (large). Pleased with the service from a customer standpoint. They will return unit back to distributor for replacement and they will put back into kit they took it out of which saves me a lot of down time. Right now off of bike but everything is plugged in and no lights. Will put on bike in a few days, he ha, will post back if any issues occur. Also, carbonLORD, thanks for offering assistance in getting Campy Rep info will keep that in need if anything else happens. Happy ridding!

Mar


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

By the way, next month at the Tour de France, 60% of the riders will have e-shift systems.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

flatlander_48 said:


> You're selecting and loaded pre-programmed modules


It's like loading maps into the ECM of a car or motorcycle. You put one map in for hot rodding around town, another for fuel efficiency on long trips.
Di2 allows one set of characteristics for recreation and another for racing. It is worth having for some users.
OP: glad you got it working. Electric stuff can be very frustrating! I had a new motorcycle that conked out, the dealer ended up stripping it to the frame and replacing the entire wiring harness.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> It's like loading maps into the ECM of a car or motorcycle. You put one map in for hot rodding around town, another for fuel efficiency on long trips.


I know. I own a MINI.



Cinelli 82220 said:


> Di2 allows one set of characteristics for recreation and another for racing. It is worth having for some users.


The point was that Shimano doesn't let you move bits around. Loading pre-written modules is a high level function.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Shimano does allow one function that provides a lot of fun.

Using the E-tube software, move the functions of the switches around, so the left lever controls the rear derailleur and the right lever controls the front derailleur. Commence laughter when unsuspecting person tries your bike.

I probably converted a few people to Campagnolo doing that.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Shimano does allow one function that provides a lot of fun.
> 
> Using the E-tube software, move the functions of the switches around, so the left lever controls the rear derailleur and the right lever controls the front derailleur. Commence laughter when unsuspecting person tries your bike.
> 
> *I probably converted a few people to Campagnolo doing that*.


Keep doin' what you're doin'...


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

carbonLORD said:


> This comment has nothing to do with the OP's post, or the current generation of Di2.
> 
> Isn't Campy still on it's "Original System"? While Shimano is on its 3rd.
> 
> ...


A few of the pro riders have a different opinion it seems.
Gilbert haalt zwaar uit naar versnellingen van Shimano - Sportwereld
Looks like a 4th generation will be coming out.
BTW I watched PG dropping back, catching back up, bunny hopping his bike yesterday hoping to get it to work, it wasn't an age thing.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Well this weekend I finally got to ride EPS on the road, rather than playing with it in the stand.
View attachment 283652


Shifting was amazing compared to Record & Super Record 11 I have on my own bikes. Minor niggle was the fact that this was equipped with a 53/39 and I have been on 50/38 or 50/34 since 2005! Aside from that I was very impressed. Now all Campagnolo have to do is release the internal battery and sort out the OS BB compatibility and I'll be happy to order a gear set.

BTW, I know the bike is the wrong size. It's a test model.


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