# Paramount afficianados: 1992 Series 7 PDG = Waterford or Asian built?



## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm looking at a 1992 Paramount. Decals say Series 7. Looked at the Waterford website and I don't see that particular decal in the 1992 set, making me think that this is an Asian built frame?

Anybody know?


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## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

Duh, nevermind, found my answer (yes, asian built):

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/2004/data/culture/paramount/history/pdgseries.php


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## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

shawndoggy said:


> Duh, nevermind, found my answer (yes, asian built):
> 
> http://www.waterfordbikes.com/2004/data/culture/paramount/history/pdgseries.php



I know you found your answer, and I could be wrong on this, since I haven't gone to the waterford site, but I seem to remember that back in the late 80s, anything that was under the Paramount name was US built. I had a Schwinn Prologue at that time and I think it was one of the frames they first had built where the Paramount PDG's were built at. The quality was excellent. Remember, at that time, many good companies were building in Japan. Miyata, Schwinn, Bianchi, Bridgestone, Panasonic..... but then the Yen took a huge tumble and Japanese frames couldn't compete anymore with other asian frames. The Yen falling also hurt some tubing companies like Tange and Ishawata badly. But that actually happened closer to 93 if I remember right. Anyways, any frames that had Paramount "PDG" for Paramount Design Group on it (I think) meant it was built in Japan and designed in the US. The true US Paramounts didn't have the PDG designation to them.

I hope that is mostly accurate, since it's all going off memory.

Russ


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## cyclust (Sep 8, 2004)

russw19 said:


> I know you found your answer, and I could be wrong on this, since I haven't gone to the waterford site, but I seem to remember that back in the late 80s, anything that was under the Paramount name was US built. I had a Schwinn Prologue at that time and I think it was one of the frames they first had built where the Paramount PDG's were built at. The quality was excellent. Remember, at that time, many good companies were building in Japan. Miyata, Schwinn, Bianchi, Bridgestone, Panasonic..... but then the Yen took a huge tumble and Japanese frames couldn't compete anymore with other asian frames. The Yen falling also hurt some tubing companies like Tange and Ishawata badly. But that actually happened closer to 93 if I remember right. Anyways, any frames that had Paramount "PDG" for Paramount Design Group on it (I think) meant it was built in Japan and designed in the US. The true US Paramounts didn't have the PDG designation to them.
> 
> I hope that is mostly accurate, since it's all going off memory.
> 
> Russ


Yes I beleive you are correct. All the "PDG" frames [or japamounts as I refer to them] were asian built frames. Although they were not bad bikes, they were no where near the quality of a "real" Waterford Paramount. I was a big fan of Paramounts [I even had a 50th anniversary] until Shwinn decided to use the prestigious name on those cheap frames. It reminded me of a guy who told some hot looking chick at a bar "Want to go for a ride in my vette?". She goes out to the parking lot and there sits his vette- a Chevette.


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## [email protected] (Feb 20, 2005)

*Waterford Paramount*



cyclust said:


> Yes I beleive you are correct. All the "PDG" frames [or japamounts as I refer to them] were asian built frames. Although they were not bad bikes, they were no where near the quality of a "real" Waterford Paramount. I have a Waterford Paramount in very good condition. A team bike for a local race team all orange with black Paramount lettering, size 54. What is it worth? Thanks, Dan


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## Mottleydude (Sep 7, 2011)

cyclust said:


> Yes I beleive you are correct. All the "PDG" frames [or japamounts as I refer to them] were asian built frames. Although they were not bad bikes, they were no where near the quality of a "real" Waterford Paramount. I was a big fan of Paramounts [I even had a 50th anniversary] until Shwinn decided to use the prestigious name on those cheap frames. It reminded me of a guy who told some hot looking chick at a bar "Want to go for a ride in my vette?". She goes out to the parking lot and there sits his vette- a Chevette.


The problem with that is you simply don't know what you're talking about. The main difference in quality (and cost) between the Panasonic constructed PDG 7 Paramounts and those built in the Waterford plant was that of custimization. The Waterford bikes were had custom geometries measured and fabricated for each individual, which adds significant cost but unless you have a unique body structure actually makes very little difference with standard off the rack geometries when it comes to actual peformance. This and some optional customization certainly gives an edge in quality to the Waterford bikes but in terms of performance, material quality and skill of the crafsmen who assembled the bikes, there's very little difference in the quality at all. 

The PDG 7's were made with Tange Prestige OS which was an outstanding tubeset and superior in performance to Columbus SL/SLX & Reynolds 531which most Waterford Paramounts were made from. So the real facts are that in terms of construction, ride quality and performance there was hardly a dimes bit of difference between a comparably equiped Waterford Bike, of that era, and a Panasonic constructed PDG 7. In fact I've ridden Waterford 531 Paramounts (and Bob Jacksons) and they are simply not as good a framesets as the PDG 7 simply because the Tange Prestige OS tubing is so superior to Reynolds 531.

The real truth is this. The Tange Prestige OS framesets coming out of the Panasonic plant in the early 90's were some of the best production steel framesets in the world. Were they custom? No but I'd put my PDG 7 against any production steel frame coming out of Italy and the US at that time.

My opinion is if you run across one of these frames in your size that is undamaged and corrosion free jump on it. It is easily of the quality of steel frames that sell today for $800 to $1000. Particularly if you are a larger rider and you can usually get a PDG frameset for around $200 to $300. They are certainly one of the most under valued framesets out there.


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## davcruz (Oct 9, 2007)

This is what I would call a real thread dredge. That being said you have roused my curiosity a bit. Was the PDG 7 the only one in the PDG series that was Tange Prestige? From what were the 2, 3 and 5 made?


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## Mottleydude (Sep 7, 2011)

davcruz said:


> This is what I would call a real thread dredge. That being said you have roused my curiosity a bit. Was the PDG 7 the only one in the PDG series that was Tange Prestige? From what were the 2, 3 and 5 made?


LOL Yea it was. I love my PDG 7. All the PDG series bikes, except the 9c were made from Tange Prestige OS. The real difference with the PDG 7 was that it was made in the Panasonic/National shop in Japan and was brazed by Panasonics top torchmen and it's best quality coating process was applied. The PDG 7 was an exceptional value in that Panasonic went the extra mile on producing the PDG 7 because they really wanted to impress Schwinn with the caliber of bike production they could offer. They made the PDG 5 there too. The ride quality is spot on identical to the True Temper OS frames being made at the Wateford plant. The only difference being the customization available at the Wateford plant. The ovalized down tubes at the BB and the OS tubing made these frames very stiff in the bottom BB with out riding harsh. No buck board affect like Cannondales of that era and other OS Steel tube bikes and with out a doubt superior to the overwhelming majority of Columbus SL/SLX bikes coming out of Italy at that time at a far lower cost.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

davcruz said:


> This is what I would call a real thread dredge. That being said you have roused my curiosity a bit. Was the PDG 7 the only one in the PDG series that was Tange Prestige? From what were the 2, 3 and 5 made?


I am sure userdan will be right back with a reply.


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## RoadBoy1 (Oct 1, 2011)

Actually the Paramount frames of that era were outsourced by Schwinn and made in the Giant factory. If you look at the Schwinn frames and the Giant frames of that time frame they are identical.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I didn't know they made paramounts with little wheels. Looks like fun!


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## OES (Jan 23, 2002)

Plus Eleventy.

Signed:

Someone experienced with PDG Paramounts, 'real' Paramounts, and now an H2Oford owner.



Mottleydude said:


> The problem with that is you simply don't know what you're talking about. The main difference in quality (and cost) between the Panasonic constructed PDG 7 Paramounts and those built in the Waterford plant was that of custimization. The Waterford bikes were had custom geometries measured and fabricated for each individual, which adds significant cost but unless you have a unique body structure actually makes very little difference with standard off the rack geometries when it comes to actual peformance. This and some optional customization certainly gives an edge in quality to the Waterford bikes but in terms of performance, material quality and skill of the crafsmen who assembled the bikes, there's very little difference in the quality at all.
> 
> The PDG 7's were made with Tange Prestige OS which was an outstanding tubeset and superior in performance to Columbus SL/SLX & Reynolds 531which most Waterford Paramounts were made from. So the real facts are that in terms of construction, ride quality and performance there was hardly a dimes bit of difference between a comparably equiped Waterford Bike, of that era, and a Panasonic constructed PDG 7. In fact I've ridden Waterford 531 Paramounts (and Bob Jacksons) and they are simply not as good a framesets as the PDG 7 simply because the Tange Prestige OS tubing is so superior to Reynolds 531.
> 
> ...


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

Japanamounts were great bikes! If you can find one in acceptable condition, grab it. Despite the "Japanamount" moniker, they ride very well. I have only Waterford Paramounts in the stable, but I had tested out a PDG paramount in the distant past. It rode well,and I could really not tell the difference other than the lesser componentry. 

Some were made in Japan, many in China. Regardless, the Tange OS steel was wonderful. Seriously, get one if its to your liking. I doubt that you'll be disappointed.


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## Mottleydude (Sep 7, 2011)

RoadBoy1 said:


> Actually the Paramount frames of that era were outsourced by Schwinn and made in the Giant factory. If you look at the Schwinn frames and the Giant frames of that time frame they are identical.


That's not true. The PDG 2 & 3's were made in Taiwan but the PDG 5 & 7's were made at the National/Panasonic plant in Japan.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

So what is a 1992 Schwinn PDG-2 worth?

Zman


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

need several good drive-side pics.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

There's a fairly clean and complete 56cm PDG3 on the Bay for $700 obo. It's being followed by 10 people, but I think it's priced a bit aggressively. I think it will move at $500 with free shipping.Compare yours with that bike to get a ballpark estimate.


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