# When will it end???



## sethkauf (Aug 28, 2012)

As avid cyclists, we should all be asking “when will it end?” I am referring to the lying, the manipulating, the still unfathomable and purposeful misleading with respect to Lance. The sport (thankfully) is well on its way to “recovery” thanks to the long overdue coming clean by many…but NOT by all. 

Hence this post…a post simply aimed to ask those still supporting, trusting, looking to for training advice and even sending money to a key individual tied to Lance who CONTINUES to this very day to proactively mislead and misguide? That individual is Chris Carmichael.

First a review of some facts specifically related to Mr. Carmichael and then an anecdote from just 1 month ago to ask you…”when will it end?”

By now…it is well accepted (not just speculated) that Lance admitted to doctors in October 1996 in an Indiana Hospital in the presence of several witnesses that he had, in fact used performance-enhancing drugs. Present were Frankie and Betsy Andreu, Stephanie McIlvain and others INCLUDING Chris Carmichael. This hospital incident is of great significance and not simply because multiple signed affidavits and USADA’s Reasoned Decision highlight it as pivotal from a factual evidence perspective, but ALSO because this hospital incident was the impetus for great torment, great manipulation, and even great “threats” orchestrated by Lance and his supporters. It is impossible to ignore the fact that Chris was in the room and witnessed the very same conversation between Lance and his doctors. 

One might also be able to somehow accept why Chris Carmichael (similar to myriad others) looked the other way while the lie was perpetrated and while in this case, Betsy and Frankie were outcast, slandered and even threatened as a result of telling the truth about that day in October 1996, but even if we somehow accept that…I ask, “when will it end?” 

I ask you that because we now need to fast forward to present-day…acknowledging the fact that a lot of new information became visible to the public’s eye on October 10, 2012 with USADA’s Reasoned Decision. A long-list of players guilty in one way or another finally came clean of late and we (the public and cycling enthusiasts the world-over) were able to see all of the details right in front of our eyes. That was October 10th of this year…

Now for an anecdote from October 30th of this year…20 days after the Reasoned Decision was made public and 20 days after we all began accepting reality while simultaneously trying to help the sport move on and begin to “recover.”

I was a recently signed-on Carmichael Training Systems Athlete, and because of being a CTS Athlete, I (along with all CTS Athletes) received the following e-mail from Chris Carmichael on 10/30/12:
________________________________________________________________________________

From: Chris Carmichael <[email protected]>
To: Chris Carmichael <[email protected]>
Subject: Message for CTS Athletes

With all the news from pro cycling over the past few weeks, I wanted to reach out to CTS Athletes with a short message. I’ve dedicated my professional life to bringing elite-level coaching to all endurance athletes, and the success of CTS coaching – your coaching - is entirely based on sound sports science, strong relationships, and proven coaching methods.

Regarding Lance Armstrong, you can read my comments from a recent interview with Velonews. (see outtake below)

As I celebrated my 52nd birthday last week, I thought about how Carmichael Training Systems has grown since we started the business a dozen years ago. CTS has been successful for reasons beyond me or the success of any one person. CTS is successful because sound training principles and great coaching relationships continue to deliver race-winning results to thousands of athletes at all levels of sport. I'm proud of what you and all CTS Athletes and Coaches have accomplished, from Olympic medals and Ironman World Championships to first centuries and victories in small-town criteriums. Thank you for your continued commitment to CTS and for trusting us to help you reach your fitness and performance goals.

Sincerely,
Chris Carmichael
CEO/Head Coach
Carmichael Training Systems

________________________________________________________________________________



The link provided in that e-mail from Chris Carmichael to all of the CTS Athletes on 10/30 (20 days after the Reasoned Decision was released) was to a “Velo News” article from August of this year from which, here is an excerpt summarizing Chris Carmichael’s point of view on the recent investigation:

________________________________________________________________________________


“At 18 years old I saw Lance take apart a world championship field in Japan that included the best East Germans and Soviets from the Eastern Bloc,” Carmichael told VeloNews. “He ended up 10th or 11th, but if he knew what he was doing he would have won. A year later, at a 10-day pro-am stage race in Italy, I saw him destroy some of the best amateurs and pros in cycling. Then, in 1993, he won the world road championship ahead of Miguel Indurain, at 21 years old.

“I’m convinced Lance won his Tour de France titles because he was the best athlete,” Carmichael continued. “I believe he was the best trained, the most focused, the most disciplined, and the most dedicated to excellence. I’m saddened by the news today, but I’m convinced he was the most talented and gifted athlete there was out there.”
Asked if he was surprised that USADA had compiled evidence of a doping conspiracy at U.S. Postal Service during the years that he had coached Armstrong, Carmichael hesitated.
“This is the only thing I’ll say about that,” he said. “In 20 years, I never saw him use any banned substances, and in my eyes, seeing is believing.”

________________________________________________________________________________


So 20 days after USADA’s Reasoned Decision was made public with all of the supporting evidence, Carmichael directed his athletes to an article from 2 months prior to sum up his perspective…a perspective that while not being a direct lie (as being in the hospital room and hearing Lance’s confession didn't mean he “saw” Lance take banned substances), was certainly misleading in the biggest sense. 

Most disheartening wasn’t the fact that Carmichael wasn’t one to finally come clean…it wasn’t the fact that he knew all those years, yet stayed silent…it wasn’t even the fact that he had made the introduction between Lance and Dr. Ferrari...it was the fact that here he was 20 days AFTER USADA’s Reasoned Decision was made public PROACTIVELY misleading his athletes…continuing to perpetrate the Lance Armstrong fallacy.

That was enough for me, so I promptly called CTS that day to cancel my coaching services, which is when my anecdote gets even more unbelievable and causes me to ask again, “when will it end?”

Upon calling “CTS Athlete Services” on October 30th to explain I could no longer be a CTS Athlete given the way in which Chris Carmichael was now taking a proactive approach to continue the misdirection as it related to Lance, I was told that I would get a call back from the manager who wanted to take all of “these types of calls” directly. I said no problem and awaited the call. 

Two hours later, my phone rang…only it wasn’t the manager…it was Chris Carmichael and for the next 13minutes, I had the most surreal conversation I had ever had with respect to Lance Armstrong.

I quickly explained my disappointment to Chris on the phone that night. I explained how even after reading the affidavits and USADA’s Reasoned Decision, I continued along as a CTS Athlete…always feeling a little “weird” about it, but somehow reasoning that he was just being publicly silent about it. That was, of course, until I received the above email on October 30th. This was a far cry from being publicly silent, I explained to Chris. This was continuing to proactively perpetrate a lie. Chris did most of the talking for the rest of the conversation. He explained to me that yes, he was in the hospital room, but that he “didn’t have a pencil and paper, so wasn’t taking notes on what Lance told the doctors.” When I asked, he told me “yeh…maybe what Frankie and Betsy said did happen, but I can’t say for sure, because I was focused on was my 23 year old friend Lance and the fact that he was battling cancer.” This went on and on and the simple fact remained that Chris was continuing…right up until the end of our conversation to misdirect, misguide and proactively misrepresent reality. We agreed I’d sleep on it before making a final decision about canceling and he said I should feel free to call him to talk more about it if I’d like. 

My mind was made up, but I slept on it and called CTS Athlete Services the very next morning to officially cancel my contract. Upon calling, I was told there was a note in the system from Chris that I should feel free to call him at any time to talk more about this and that he hoped I’d reconsider and stay-on as a CTS Athlete. I never called him again and don’t have any intention to. 

So, I ask again…”when will it end?” There are three categories of people in this utter disaster of a scenario with respect to Lance and cycling…

There are the ones who were “pre-maturely” honest and they paid a price. These are folks like Frankie and Betsy Andreu, Fillipo Simeoni, and others.

Then there is a large group of individuals who came “clean” later on, some sooner than others, but all eventually doing so. These are folks like Tyler, Danielson, Levi, Hincapie, Vande Velde, Vaughters, Landis and many others.

Then there is a third group of people…the very, very worst who continue to perpetrate a lie…Lance, Bruyneel, Ferrari, some others and YES…Chris Carmichael.

So I ask one final time…”when will it end?” Should ANY avid cyclist be supporting (in one way or another) anyone in this third group of individuals? 

That is a question each one of us can only answer for ourselves!!!

Thanks for listening.


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## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

My being a fan of Lance ended with Tyler's 60 minute interview. My antipathy towards him grew after reading Tyler's book and the USADA report.

The groups that came clean - for whatever motivation - I have a certain respect for. At least they are no longer trying to play the public for fools in regards to cheating.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Hire a professional.


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## ratherBclimbing (Apr 2, 2007)

I think Ferrari is just misunderstood.


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

After some real soul searching and profound introspection I found that I truly do not care.


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Firstly, the moderator should move this to the doping forum. Secondly, since you 
at second hand have heard Mr. Carmichael state that he had knowledge of LA
doping, which countermands his public statements, you are probably best to
watch how you proceed and as spade suggests, maybe seek counsel before having
any further discourse with CTS. I don't believe that kind of evidence means anything
down the road in court, and it certainly comes as no surprise to most of us, it is
certainly fodder for the thinktank of cycling corruption.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

When will people grow tired enough of modern day soap operas that they finally just ignore them and move on with their lives? This is People Magazine, Star Magazine stuff. You don't even know these people, and their success or failure has absolutely no bearing on your life. With the time it took you to write this, you could have just rode your bike for an hour. I don't feel even remotely cheated by any of the professional athletes that doped. They are strangers to me just like the characters in the novels I read about. Ignore them, and you can't be bothered. If you really want to be a do-gooder, spend your time on things that actually matter and positively affect the world. There is a solar light project in Haiti with your name on it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Lance should totally date a Kardashian next.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

spade2you said:


> Lance should totally date a Kardashian next.


Exactly.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

Get over it. Moderators, please move this to Doping.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

Ibtm td


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## crbeals (Oct 3, 2012)

Yeah but how is this going to get me laid?


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## Rusted Angel (Sep 19, 2010)

I shall not watch professional sports...


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## ratherBclimbing (Apr 2, 2007)

crbeals said:


> Yeah but how is this going to get me laid?


How is it not getting you laid? It's working for the rest of us.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

El Scorcho said:


> After some real soul searching and profound introspection I found that I truly do not care.


Feel the same way, but minus the soul searching and introspection.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I'm all out of outrage.

sorry.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

El Scorcho said:


> After some real soul searching and profound introspection I found that I truly do not care.


.... The real question is when will I give a flying F***..  Probably never


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

It's not enough to cancel your membership, you had to throw Carmichael under the bus after he calls you personally. Nice. 


Question: Was CTS good training and did it improve your cycling?


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## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

Contrary to others who took a moment (or less) to post, I found the OP's post thought provoking. Those who planned and executed the doping programs have done grave harm to the sport we love. Those who try to brush it off, explain it away, "move on" or "move forward", and those who perpetuate the "champion athlete" lie are continuing to do the sport a disservice. This is a festering wound that needs to be dealt with aggressively. I think the OP's point is that Chris Carmichel was at the very least knowledgeable about the doping scheme and more likely was complicit. 

I agree that cyclists everywhere should withdraw from CTS - books, videos, coaching relationships, everything. If Chris came clean like others and dealt with it in a transparent manner, it might be possible to view him as a man of re-born integrity. But that's not what he's doing. 

Lance was a champion - a champion liar, a champion doper, a champion bully, a champion narcissist, a champion cheater. 

Chris Carmichel was the coach and close friend. And almost certainly an enabler of every aspect of Lance being a "champion" in those many ways. It is unfortunate that he is not willing to come clean. If there was ever a time and place to do it, it is when George and Tom and Chrisitan and so many others are doing it. But Chris apparently lacks the intestinal fortitude to "man up" like the others.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

> Lance was a champion - a champion liar, a champion doper, a champion bully, a champion narcissist, a champion cheater.


You don't say. Tell us more. I don't think enough has been written about it yet for any of us to draw any of our own conclusions.


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## ratherBclimbing (Apr 2, 2007)

Lance who?


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

multirider said:


> Contrary to others who took a moment (or less) to post, I found the OP's post thought provoking. Those who planned and executed the doping programs have done grave harm to the sport we love. Those who try to brush it off, explain it away, "move on" or "move forward", and those who perpetuate the "champion athlete" lie are continuing to do the sport a disservice. This is a festering wound that needs to be dealt with aggressively. I think the OP's point is that Chris Carmichel was at the very least knowledgeable about the doping scheme and more likely was complicit.
> 
> I agree that cyclists everywhere should withdraw from CTS - books, videos, coaching relationships, everything. If Chris came clean like others and dealt with it in a transparent manner, it might be possible to view him as a man of re-born integrity. But that's not what he's doing.
> 
> ...


Virtually none of this is true. Read Tyler's book and report back. CC's involvement (or more really lack of involvement) is and was minimal. DrFerarri was the real coach and CC was a smokescreen.

What CC says above is to do damage control to the fact that he was not in fact involved with Lance in any way at any time, but he still has to make people think he was close enough to the guy (he wasn't) that he still deserves your money. 

**** him and his program. Ride your bike hard and if that isn't enough ride some more. Send me 100 bucks a month for that.


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

sethkauf said:


> As avid cyclists, we should all be asking “when will it end?” I am referring to the lying, the manipulating, the still unfathomable and purposeful misleading with respect to Lance. The sport (thankfully) is well on its way to “recovery” thanks to the long overdue coming clean by many…but NOT by all.
> 
> Hence this post…a post simply aimed to ask those still supporting, trusting, looking to for training advice and even sending money to a key individual tied to Lance who CONTINUES to this very day to proactively mislead and misguide? That individual is Chris Carmichael.
> 
> ...


I applaude you for your perseverance, courage and character in leaving Mr.Carmichael's coaching. Personally, it was NOT the CTS TRAINING that won the 7 tour's, but the performance enhancing drugs. Shame on Mr. Carmichael for not coming forward and acknowledging what is a fact now. More of the same, just trying to save his business and not owning up to what was really going on. 
Perhaps it is time for the truth commission to into CTS training systems, and what actually transpired between C.C. and L.A.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I agree with the OP


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

factory feel said:


> I agree with the OP


Wow, that's really, really great. Thanks for the insight.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

Multirider : *I agree that cyclists everywhere should withdraw from CTS - books, videos, coaching relationships, everything.*

Maybe this hasn't dawned on you, but cycling was/is full of riders, coaches and doctors that used or enabled somebody to use drugs. I bet that if you dig deep enough you might just have to drop any and all training/coaching methods with that attitude. 

Besides, we don't all share the same values.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

SmellTest said:


> Why should Carmichael be making tons of money for dispensing obvious advice?


why should he not if people are willing to pay?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

SmellTest said:


> Really? A training plan, rest, and proper nutrition?
> 
> Why should Carmichael be making tons of money for dispensing obvious advice?


Putting Carmichael aside, I'm see many cyclists muck up these training fundamentals. For example, many of the guys I ride with go too hard on easy days. Many riders need obvious advice. 

I'm self-coached and ask this about all coaches -- why do people pay for something when they already know it or can get it for free with a little effort? Coaching isn't rocket surgery and after reading a few books I think I have it figured out.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

SmellTest said:


> Really? A training plan, rest, and proper nutrition?
> 
> Why should Carmichael be making tons of money for dispensing obvious advice?


Obvious? Were you born knowledgeable?  Don't we all have to learn from somebody and then experiment and adapt to our needs?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

serious said:


> Obvious? Were you born knowledgeable?  Don't we all have to learn from somebody and then experiment and adapt to our needs?


I'm definitely not the brightest. I've simply followed a Friel based plan and starting on my 3rd year with it. It was a pretty boring read, not gonna lie. Once you get the hang of, it's not that difficult building your own plan.


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## dlhuillier (May 31, 2007)

It will never end. Cat and mouse.


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## dlhuillier (May 31, 2007)

Yeah, right.


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## dlhuillier (May 31, 2007)

LOL. Call it survival.


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## dlhuillier (May 31, 2007)

He is a self-serving arrogant $***^#@#)(*


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## dlhuillier (May 31, 2007)

This is getting old.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Wow, you registered that name five years ago and waited until tonight to post.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Wow, you registered that name five years ago and waited until tonight to post.


I don't even remotely have a drinking rule for that...until he tries to sell some ****ing Ugg Boots.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I have a coach because I'm not self-motivated to set up and monitor a training program. When I feel like someone else is "counting on me" (even if I'm paying them to), I am more likely to stick with a program.

I have a Carmichael book (because my coach was mentioned in it) and a couple videos that I got with trainers over the years. To be honest, the book puts me to sleep and the videos make me want to punch somene- I don't do well with the mindless "cheerleader" approach. If people make gains with his programs, I'm happy for them. It's a decent enough program, although I have yet to see anything revolutionary.

His role as Lance's beard upsets me a lot less than the Greg Strock/Erich Kaiter cases. A lot of companies rode on Lance's coattails, and more than a few knew what was going on. I'm not going to stop buying Treks because of it.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

OP was a clothing brand that I used to wear.


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## wagg (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Wow, you registered that name five years ago and waited until tonight to post.


How or why would someone even notice that?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

wagg said:


> How or why would someone even notice that?


1. check "join date"
2. check "recent poasts"
3. do the math

To the OP, call Chris and tell him he is a beard. Just a darn beard.


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## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

culdeus said:


> Virtually none of this is true. Read Tyler's book and report back. CC's involvement (or more really lack of involvement) is and was minimal. DrFerarri was the real coach and CC was a smokescreen.
> 
> What CC says above is to do damage control to the fact that he was not in fact involved with Lance in any way at any time, but he still has to make people think he was close enough to the guy (he wasn't) that he still deserves your money.
> 
> **** him and his program. Ride your bike hard and if that isn't enough ride some more. Send me 100 bucks a month for that.


I haven't read Tyler's book and haven't done all the research of others here, so I'm going more on how Chris represented his relationship with Lance and the basis for the success of his business (TdF victories). 

It's a two-edged sword - CC wanted to represent himself and CTS as close to Lance and he succeeded. Many people (including me) see CC and CTS as closely aligned to Lance. I don't know how much CC had to do with Lance's training and "success", but, as CC desired, I associate him and his business with Lance. 

Apparently CC is at least as much about spinning the facts and creating perception as he is about training. His current approach seems cowardly to me. If he didn't have much to do with Lance, he should own up to the misrepresentations (lies) and come clean. He spread his version of reality to the public when it came to "success". Now he should tell the truth to the public about the whole story.

Maybe the well-studied "insiders" know CC was not likely to have been complicit with the doping program because he wasn't that close to Lance, but the rest of us only know what he told us - CC was a primary ingredient in Lance's success. How about a little integrity? And a lot of truth?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

multirider said:


> I haven't read Tyler's book and haven't done all the research of others here, so I'm going more on how Chris represented his relationship and his business.
> 
> It's a two-edged sword - CC wanted to represent himself and CTS as close to Lance and he succeeded. Many people (including me) see CC and CTS as closely aligned to Lance. I don't know how much CC had to do with Lance's training and "success", but, as CC desired, I associate him and his business with Lance.
> 
> ...


Chris Carmichael has been involved in doping for a long long time. He was injecting junior riders with steroids without their knowledge (these ...
-S. Tilford


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> Chris Carmichael has been involved in doping for a long long time. He was injecting junior riders with steroids without their knowledge (these ...
> -S. Tilford


I just googled for what you wrote and found it in an anonymous comment (by "Dan Rather") on TIlford's blog. 
60 Minutes | Steve Tilford


From Carmichael's wiki page: *Some cyclists he had trained later sued USA Cycling (USAC) for doping them and named him and fellow coach Rene Wenzel in their allegations, Greg Strock in 2000, and Erich Kaiter in 2004. Both reportedly made out-of-court settlements with him*

From Wenzel's wiki page: *Four former athletes accused Wenzel, along with Chris Carmichael, Cycling USA and Angus Fraser, of treating them with illegal drugs in 1990, feeding them pills and giving them injections, such as cortisone, an immunosuppressant ... Wenzel and Carmichael deny the charges.*



This is far and away more controversial than "not coming clean" with a CTS athlete about Armstrong. In the grand scheme of things, who gives a crap about that? In comparison to doping up kids, telling lies is small potatoes. 

It sounds like the case fizzled five years ago. Did anything come of it against Carmichael?


Velonews interviewed Strock here: Strock Speaks

No mention of Carmichael. But it does say this:* Strock alleges that Wenzel, and at least one other coach, regularly injected him with cortisone — the immunosuppressant prescribed to transplant patients — and possibly other drugs.*


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## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

I agree that doping children is a heinous act way beyond doping for personal glory.

Regarding the original topic of CC's role as LA's coach -- on page 46 of the USADA cycling investigation results:

"Unlike last year, when Armstrong won four days of the Tour, this year he has won
none, losing even his miraculous Monday ride to Spaniard Javier Oxtoa, who had
started his sprint hours before Armstrong made his breakaway. Armstrong nearly
applied his brakes to allow the wobbling Spaniard to cross the victory line within
sight of cheering countrymen who had come to see the race. Even the Pantani
win up Ventoux was a gift, with Armstrong slowing down to let the troubled exchampion
catch up. *“He’s come to win the war, not kill everyone in every single
battle,” says Armstrong’s coach, Chris Carmichael. Armstrong,* now clearly the
strongest rider in the world, is being careful not to take glory unnecessarily from
the other riders. Even Texans know when not to tick people off."'

and a few pages later:

"Lance Armstrong is issuing the following statement in response to an Italian
court’s acquittal of Dr. Michele Ferrari of distributing doping products and his
conviction for sporting fraud and illegally acting as a pharmacist. Dr. Ferrari, who
is broadly recognized as a pioneer and leading authority in sports medicine and
high-altitude training, has been on trial since 2001 for allegedly providing
professional cyclists with illegal performance-enhancing drugs. *Dr. Ferrari has
served as a conditioning consultant to the U.S. Postal Service (USPS) team
since 1999 under the direction of team coach Chris Carmichael and team physician Dr. Pedro Celaya*."

page 95:

*Chris Carmichael *has claimed that he introduced Armstrong to Ferrari in 1995 and Bill
Stapleton confirmed that the relationship with Ferrari began in 1995.

page 106:

As Armstrong’s agent Bill Stapleton would be forced to admit just a few years later,
Lance had had a “professional relationship” with Ferrari “for a long time.”495 According to
Stapleton, Ferrari was “in this group of people” including Johan Bruyneel and *Chris Carmichael *“that helped Lance.”496 According to *Carmichael*, “[t]here [were] only four people who really know what’s going on with Lance’s body: me, Michele, Johan and Freddy [Viaene, Armstrong’s massage therapist].”


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

multirider said:


> but the rest of us only know what he told us - CC was a primary ingredient in Lance's success.


Would you mind defining "us"? Just for clarification, it sounds like you are saying CC told you personally he was the primary ingredient and you believe he has said that to everyone that goes to Carmichael's?


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## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

The sentence you are referring to contrasted "the well-studied 'insiders' " with "the rest of us". Since the point of the post is that many people, including myself, are not well versed in the details of the various relationships between riders, team directors, coaches, doctors, etc, it surprises me that you would conclude I talked to Chris Carmichel. I have not talked with him. 

Perhaps "insiders" was not quite the right term in that sentence. I was trying to contrast those that follow pro racing closely (i.e. some people on this board who keep current on who's on what team, who is the director, who is the trainer, etc) with those that don't (such as myself) and only have a general familiarity with the drama in the pro ranks. 

The point that I was trying to make is similar to the OP's point -- people should think about who they reward with their hard-earned dollars. Carmichel represented himself as very close to Lance and as a significant contributor to Lance's success Chris/CTS marketing material basically said "we trained Lance, we're the best, our secret sauce will enable you to achieve massive improvement too". Well, the "secret sauce" wasn't the workouts in The Time Crunched Cyclist!!! It was actually delivered via syringe! (Please note: I'm not saying it was delivered by Chris, I'm just saying the workouts weren't the sole or even primary reason Lance was in yellow at the TdF.)

A few years ago, I purchased some Train Right DVDs because Chris/CTS said they trained Lance. This year, I had "Time Crunched Cyclist" on my Christmas list. I'm taking it off. That won't cause Chris/CTS to go into bankruptcy, but I will feel better knowing that I did not support someone who either knew about Lance / USPS doping and said nothing, knew and helped, or misrepresented his relationship with Lance. And someone who continues to take the cowardly path in the current situation.

Hopefully many others who do more significant business with CTS such as the OP will let their conscience guide their purchasing decisions. 

As someone else pointed out, there certainly were a lot of dopers in pro cycling and some have gone into coaching (Kevin Livingston!). On the other hand, there are a lot of coaches available to the average cyclist who didn't dope, didn't support dopers or doping, and didn't misrepresent their relationships for financial gain.


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## RCMTB (Apr 20, 2012)

To OP, awesome, now you have some closure on Lance and all the lies and people that supported him. I mean does it really affect you that much personally that Carmichael hasn't explicitly said he heard Lance say he used peds? Are you that EMO? Move on and find another coach and continue your training. 

I ride because I love riding, I love bikes and it keeps me in shape and sane. Log off and ride on is what I say.


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## jackkane (Nov 28, 2012)

Oxtox said:


> I'm all out of outrage.
> 
> sorry.


agreed


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Carmichel had to know, he often monitored LA blood values on long training rides. He knew what Ferrari was known for. I don't think he looked away, I think he stared right into the beast and accepted it. Oh we'll.

When will it end - long after LA is dead.


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