# Master X Lite Tubing



## mj3200

I'm sure I'm behind the curve here, but I've just noticed that the frame is now made from "Colnago DT-15V Steel" dropping the word Columbus. Does anyone know if that means that the tubing is no longer drawn by Columbus? And if not who is the current supplier?

Thanks


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## WrenchScienceCliff

See my response below!


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## mj3200

Thanks for that. I think that they should have left a Columbus sticker on it though.......


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## WrenchScienceCliff

Agreed.


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## BMCUSA

Columbus is no longer providing any tubes - "their" tube are made in Asia. Columbus as it was known - does no longer exsist. Unfortunatelly.


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## ComesAtime

mj3200 said:


> Thanks for that. I think that they should have left a Columbus sticker on it though.......


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## chuckice

ComesAtime said:


>


Current Master XL's don't have that.


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## chuckice

BMCUSA said:


> Columbus is no longer providing any tubes - "their" tube are made in Asia. Columbus as it was known - does no longer exsist. Unfortunatelly.


Got any proof or should we just take your word?


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## mtbbmet

My guess is tha BMC USA might just know a bit more about Colnago than, well, anyone in North America and likely more than alot of people who work for Colnago in Italy.
Just my guess though.
PS glad to see you landed on your feet. Good luck with BMC.


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## WrenchScienceCliff

So I'm returning with more information today - and retracting my previous statement too. Colnago is no longer getting tubing from Columbus, but is staying with Italian-made steel tubing from Milano. The specs exactly match last year's DT15V tubing and have the same blend of chromium, molybdenum, and vanadium.
Also my guess is that Colnago USA knows more about Colnago than, well, anyone else. BMCUSA was right too.

Just spoke with Ben from Cinelli and Fabrizio (spelling?) from Columbus, who are both at the show in Richmond right now. 
Here's the scoop:
-All steel and alloy tubesets are being manufactured in Italy, with exception to two (see below)
-No new production has been transferred to Taiwan
-2 new entry-level steel tubesets (Chromoly, seamed) are being designed by Columbus and produced in Taiwan and Japan starting this year
-Several carbon tubesets are made in Taiwan following Columbus design, standards
-Colnago's DT15V tubeset is no longer purchased from Columbus, thus the lack of Columbus sticker


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## iyeoh

So we don't know who makes this "Italian steel tubing from Milano." We have no idea where the tubing for the latest MXLs come from. Could be Milan. Could be Taipei. Could be Guangdong. Could be Mumbai, Delhi or Banglore... still "Asia" (where *a lot* of steel comes from.. Accelor-Mittal is the largest steel company in the world... based in Luxembourg and 100% Indian). Who knows? This is just as bad as Columbus tubing that is made in Taiwan and the ever so mysterious supplier of carbon for the EPS.

What is happening to Colnago??

I know I ain't buying another bike till I get to the truth.


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## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> So we don't know who makes this "Italian steel tubing from Milano." We have no idea where the tubing for the latest MXLs come from. Could be Milan. Could be Taipei. Could be Guangdong. Could be Mumbai, Delhi or Banglore... still "Asia" (where *a lot* of steel comes from.. Accelor-Mittal is the largest steel company in the world... based in Luxembourg and 100% Indian). Who knows? This is just as bad as Columbus tubing that is made in Taiwan and the ever so mysterious supplier of carbon for the EPS.
> 
> What is happening to Colnago??
> 
> I know I ain't buying another bike till I get to the truth.


Are you never buying another bike, or just not buying a Colnago until you get the truth? If you are never buying another bike until you get the truth about Colnago, you had better take really good care of the bikes you have right now. Me, I've been looking at a Tommasini in steel instead of the Colnago Master, but I really love the PR82 color scheme. Thing is, I really like the red, white, and green of the Tommasini. Decisions, decisions. Not to mention the Tommasini is like $600 to $700 cheaper than the Colnago Master.


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## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> Are you never buying another bike, or just not buying a Colnago until you get the truth? If you are never buying another bike until you get the truth about Colnago, you had better take really good care of the bikes you have right now. Me, I've been looking at a Tommasini in steel instead of the Colnago Master, but I really love the PR82 color scheme. Thing is, I really like the red, white, and green of the Tommasini. Decisions, decisions. Not to mention the Tommasini is like $600 to $700 cheaper than the Colnago Master.


Like I said, I have the Sarroni steel frame set aside for me at R&A with a significant deposit. I have refused to build up that frame until I get the low down, and nobody seems to have any answers. I'll get my money back if I so choose. Five steel Colangos came from that shop.

I sure baby all my steel Colnagos, plus those my dad passed down to me. I intend to give all the bikes to my son, and then his kids. They are irreplaceable. 

I rode a 1990 Tommasini Diamante Columbus MS for a while, but it wasn't mine. My gf in grad business school rode the same size frame. Tommasinis are beautiful bikes. They handle differently, so you may want to think about that. More of the DeRosa/Merckx relaxed handling geometry. 

I crack up when I see a Colnago in Merckx Molteni. The Colnago geometry was precisely why Merckx switched to DeRosa after just two years. He loved Colnago built bikes, but he didn't dig the short top tubes and Merckx always believed the long top tube and shorter stem and relaxed tube angles (DeRosa) would descend better than the short top tube and long stem (Colnago). Whatever.

Forget about which is cheaper. You have Italian blood. As much as you buy with your head, buy with your heart. Follow where your heart leads you.


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## SamG

*Materials*

In the 'Overview' section on the 'Materials' tab of the Colnago website, the carbon source is stated as 'Toraya:'

"The immense strength and versatility of carbon fiber has made it the most popular material for top-quality road racing bicycles. We use Toraya carbon fiber in a variety of grades and types according to the specific requirements of the frame or component.

Our one-piece (monocoque) frames use pre-preg carbon cloth, laser-aligned in a mould and heated under pressure to form a seamless, strong, light unit.

The EPS family uses lugged carbon construction which allows for tremendous versatility - it's the only way to offer 22 different sizes and custom options for a carbon fiber bicycle that fits perfectly."

Presumably this is the same manufacturer of carbon that is prevalent in the construction of Pinarellos; 'the world's best carbon.' And Felt: 'the F1C has the far-superior Torayca M30 UHM carbon-same grade as some spacecraft.'

http://www.toray.com/products/carbon/car_002.html

Part of the 'A Team' thang:

http://www.bike-eu.com/public/file/archive/20060410-05bik008z017.pdf

There's no mention of in-house carbon manufacture at Colnago, although the frames do seem to be assembled at Cambiago. Perhaps they buy in the prepreg and form lugs and tubes themselves? With ATR no longer around, this seems a sensible alternative.

All conjecture. Seems to make a great product in the end!


No clue about the steel origins...

"The first Colnago bicycles were made from steel and so steel is still close to our heart. The Master X-Light's Columbus DT15V tubing gets its strength from chromium, molybdenum and vanadium alloying elements and is butted and shaped to our exact specifications."

Sam


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## gomango

......


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## mj3200

Could it be DEDACCIAI s.r.l.
Sede Legale: Piazza Amendola, 3
20149 Milano (MI) - Italy?


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## gomango

Could be lots of things if they farmed the production out.


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## mj3200

I meant as a tubing supplier. I can't think of any others in Italy off hand and they are claiming their supplier is based in Milan.


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## iyeoh

That's it...the carbon fiber comes from Toray.

COLNAGO'S CARBON FIBER IS JAPANESE... 

Toray Industries is based in Nihonbashi-Muromachi, Tokyo in the Nihonbashi Mitsui Tower. I know because I have been to that building personally.

No thanks. I will never ever buy a Colnago carbon bike ever... might as well switch to S-brand DI2.

As for the Milan based supplier of steel, for all we know, it could be the Milan distributor's office of China Steel Corp. (Taiwan) or Mittal Steel (India) or Pohang Iron and Steel (South Korea).


.....


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## mj3200

Yeah I think we are at the end of some kind of era.


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## gomango

.......


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## iyeoh

Geneva, 20th February 2010

The Rolak Corporation, the manufacturer of the world's finest timepieces, has announced that it will be shifting its manufacturing from Geneva to Sierra Leone, which has a highly skilled French-speaking workforce that is in abundant supply (as soon as Rolak removes all the AK-47 rifles), thus reducing Rolak's expense base and improving cost efficiency.

In the interest of supplying the best time pieces, Rolak will discontinue the use of its proprietary self winding movements and instead use cost-effective quartz movements to be supplied in bulk by the Saiko Company and Cazio Corporation of Japan. These quartz movements have been proven for decades to be far more accurate than Rolak's self winding movements anyway.

Rolak's timepiece collection will be streamlined into two product groups: with diamonds, and without diamonds. The diamond collection will have Swiss Crosses on the bezel, the watch face and the bracelet to remind the consumer that this is indeed a Swiss Watch, despite being made in West Africa. The non-diamond collection will be offered in neon pink, bile lime green, a fuschia purple mix and fecal brown. 

Rolak America will only offer the Fecal Brown color, with special splashes of gold, for sale in the United States, but there will be Swiss Crosses on it everywhere.

Due to the weak US Dollar and fixed distributor pricing, effective immediately, the price of Rolak watches sold in America will be increased by 60%. Rolak appreciates that every consumer deserves the best deal possible, but Rolak will not warranty any merchandise not bought through Rolak America's two approved retailers.


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## iyeoh

Never mind... enough with the instigating


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## gomango

mj3200 said:


> Yeah I think we are at the end of some kind of era.


.....


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## ComesAtime

I guess I'll hold onto my 09 Saronni. The last Master XL made from real Colombus Tubing. lol


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## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> Like I said, I have the Sarroni steel frame set aside for me at R&A with a significant deposit. I have refused to build up that frame until I get the low down, and nobody seems to have any answers. I'll get my money back if I so choose. Five steel Colangos came from that shop.
> 
> I sure baby all my steel Colnagos, plus those my dad passed down to me. I intend to give all the bikes to my son, and then his kids. They are irreplaceable.
> 
> I rode a 1990 Tommasini Diamante Columbus MS for a while, but it wasn't mine. My gf in grad business school rode the same size frame. Tommasinis are beautiful bikes. They handle differently, so you may want to think about that. More of the DeRosa/Merckx relaxed handling geometry.
> 
> I crack up when I see a Colnago in Merckx Molteni. The Colnago geometry was precisely why Merckx switched to DeRosa after just two years. He loved Colnago built bikes, but he didn't dig the short top tubes and Merckx always believed the long top tube and shorter stem and relaxed tube angles (DeRosa) would descend better than the short top tube and long stem (Colnago). Whatever.
> 
> Forget about which is cheaper. You have Italian blood. As much as you buy with your head, buy with your heart. Follow where your heart leads you.


That is the problem. My heart is torn with Colnago. I don't really like the fact that production is slowly moving to Asia and that the tubing for the Master is now a little bit in the gray area. Meanwhile, my head is telling me to save $600 to $700. Since I already have several other Colnagos, I might as well try out a Tommasini. I have a Bianchi FG Lite and I don't like riding it as much as the Colnagos. I know that much. Who knows where this will lead me.


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## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> Geneva, 20th February 2010
> 
> The Rolak Corporation, the manufacturer of the world's finest timepieces, has announced that it will be shifting its manufacturing from Geneva to Sierra Leone, which has a highly skilled French-speaking workforce that is in abundant supply (as soon as Rolak removes all the AK-47 rifles), thus reducing Rolak's expense base and improving cost efficiency.
> 
> In the interest of supplying the best time pieces, Rolak will discontinue the use of its proprietary self winding movements and instead use cost-effective quartz movements to be supplied in bulk by the Saiko Company and Cazio Corporation of Japan. These quartz movements have been proven for decades to be far more accurate than Rolak's self winding movements anyway.
> 
> Rolak's timepiece collection will be streamlined into two product groups: with diamonds, and without diamonds. The diamond collection will have Swiss Crosses on the bezel, the watch face and the bracelet to remind the consumer that this is indeed a Swiss Watch, despite being made in West Africa. The non-diamond collection will be offered in neon pink, bile lime green, a fuschia purple mix and fecal brown.
> 
> Rolak America will only offer the Fecal Brown color, with special splashes of gold, for sale in the United States, but there will be Swiss Crosses on it everywhere.
> 
> Due to the weak US Dollar and fixed distributor pricing, effective immediately, the price of Rolak watches sold in America will be increased by 60%. Rolak appreciates that every consumer deserves the best deal possible, but Rolak will not warranty any merchandise not bought through Rolak America's two approved retailers.


This post is epic. I'm debating saving it so I can read it again in 10 years.


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## iyeoh

Since the flagship bike's tubes are Japanese, I no longer want to hear any partisan nonsense about Colnago being Italian made and Pinarellos being made in Asia. Both brands use Japanese carbon tubes and slap those tubes together in Italy. Both companies have the audacity to charge exhorbitant prices for history and passion, except the frames are genuinely Italian as a three-dollar American bill or a two-Euro bill.

As far as I know, the only company that does it all itself is Timesport. More power to those who want to buy bikes from the French.

Something you may want to keep in mind... Torayca carbon fiber is used in the Boeing Dreamliner B787. The plane which had its wing seperate from the body pre-test flight because of carbon structural failure.


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## 89dk

iyeoh said:


> Something you may want to keep in mind... Torayca carbon fiber is used in the Boeing Dreamliner B787. The plane which had its wing seperate from the body pre-test flight because of carbon structural failure.


Noted--no 4g negative dives on my bicycle. But if you would please clarify how did the 787 made out of Italian carbon fiber do? I only ask because like steel (which is what the OP was asking about) and AL and Ti globally there's limited sources of the material. And despite marketing department claims if you track it back far enough it's coming from one of those sources regardless of the "country of origin." Additionally the US has made China the best producer of bicycle parts (carbon included) in the world. We decided long ago that we wanted them to have the hazardous waste and low wages so we outsourced but taught them everything we knew. The result is that 20+ years later there isn't a good carbon producer in the US--everyone turns to China. Additionally, as stated in a previous post about this same topic on this same forum, Colnago can source it from wherever they want but they're not going to put their name on it and assume the liability unless it meets their quality control standards. They could have made the change 10 years ago and kept putting Columbus stickers on the bike and no one would've know the difference. That's because it is going to be at their standard. So order the bike, order a sticker kit, replace your tubing sticker and enjoy the ride for the rest of your days.


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## iyeoh

Solid copy. The B787 was never made out of Italian carbon. But then plane never got off the ground when the wing separated and had to be re-engineered.

American manufacturers source their bicycles from *Taiwan* not China (unless you're a disciple of Mao Tse Tung and firmly believe in "One China"). Taiwan ain't China, and we may have to fight that war one day, and so please be cognizant of the sensitivities.

Colnago can do whatever they want and buy from whomever they want. Its their perrogative. Just that I ain't buying, but that's my call.

They couldn't have made that switch 10 years ago and still put that Columbus sticker on. In America, commercial falsification is a tort. I'm not going to take fraudulent conveyance up my rear end and just keep quiet. There is a body called the federal trade commission and another called the department of justice. I'll be among the first to spearhead a federal class action lawsuit and lay down the hurt, and there are more than a few ambulance chasers around who would be willing to oblige, and my good mr. fabulous roman, esq., buddy here would agree with me.


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## colnago italy

We repeat: the Master tubings are made in Italy, more exactly in Milan.


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## gomango

colnago italy said:


> We repeat: the Master tubings are made in Italy, more exactly in Milan.


Thank you for this clarification.

By the way, I really do enjoy my Colnagos.


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## bolt30

I have no doubt that Torayca carbon fibre is as good as any out there. It does indeed have an outstanding reputation within the aerospace and automobile industry. And I have no doubt that an EPS made out of Torayca carbon fibre is equally as good as one made out of ATR produced tubing. That being said, Colnago has lost a little something that made it special. One of the reasons I bought my EPS was the uniqueness of the entire frame, including materials, being made in Italy. I'm surprised they didn't seek out another manufacturer of carbon fibre. Maybe they felt that Torayca was a superior product to what they could find in Italy? Quite possibly as this is not some cheap no name Chinese carbon fibre. Nothing in Japan is cheap (I'm currently living in Tokyo), and Torayca carbon fibre is undoubtedly some of the more/most expensive out there. It would have been much cheaper to not go with a known, well respected name brand. But again, it takes a little something away that made Colnago special. I bought my EPS in August of 09, so maybe it was built using ATR manufactured tubing? Either way, the frame is damn amazing.


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## fabsroman

bolt30 said:


> I have no doubt that Torayca carbon fibre is as good as any out there. It does indeed have an outstanding reputation within the aerospace and automobile industry. And I have no doubt that an EPS made out of Torayca carbon fibre is equally as good as one made out of ATR produced tubing. That being said, Colnago has lost a little something that made it special. One of the reasons I bought my EPS was the uniqueness of the entire frame, including materials, being made in Italy. I'm surprised they didn't seek out another manufacturer of carbon fibre. Maybe they felt that Torayca was a superior product to what they could find in Italy? Quite possibly as this is not some cheap no name Chinese carbon fibre. Nothing in Japan is cheap (I'm currently living in Tokyo), and Torayca carbon fibre is undoubtedly some of the more/most expensive out there. It would have been much cheaper to not go with a known, well respected name brand. But again, it takes a little something away that made Colnago special. I bought my EPS in August of 09, so maybe it was built using ATR manufactured tubing? Either way, the frame is damn amazing.


Yeah, my wife has a 2nd uncle living in Japan and he took a pic of a melon and its price tag and puit it on Facebook. He did the monetary conversion for everybody, and it was ridiculously expensive. I cannot imagine what it costs to eat in Japan, much less buy a bike. I was looking at some WR Compositi components for my C50 and came across a Japanese retailer of the components. The prices were astronomical compared to everywhere else. Everywhere else, they were just expensive. Even though I was willing to spend the money, it was virtually impossible to find anybody that carried the WR Compositi components.


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## mtbbmet

fabsroman said:


> I cannot imagine what it costs to eat in Japan, much less buy a bike..


And yet next to Italy, Japan is the largest market for Colnago frame sales. States are a distant third.


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## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> I cannot imagine what it costs to eat in Japan, much less buy a bike.


It isn't that bad if you just want regular restaurant food, if you know what you are ordering. Of course, if you like the good stuff, like Toro or Uni, you have to pay handsomely for it. Come on, it isn't as though Beluga or Foie Gras or Truffles in Europe are cheap. Yes, conspicious consumption can get expensive in Japan, but its not in a class of its own. Tokyo is only as bad as it is in Zurich or Geneva. Want a shock? Try booking a regular luxury hotel room in Shanghai or Moscow. A standard hotel room over here in Manhattan with no view costs $400 per night with a two night minimum. I think that's pretty expensive as well.


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## iyeoh

colnago italy said:


> We repeat: the Master tubings are made in Italy, more exactly in Milan.


I appreciate your reiteration, but you have so ever masterfully evaded the question as to which organization makes the tubing. Why is the supply source such a secret?


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## mj3200

Exactly.

Why the big secret?


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## colnago italy

...because it has been hard to find them and to let the production start in such a good way.
We had to face a lack of production last year, because we had no stock of tubings.
Now, we are not so stupid to open the doors to everybody...


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## gomango

colnago italy said:


> ...because it has been hard to find them and to let the production start in such a good way.
> We had to face a lack of production last year, because we had no stock of tubings.
> Now, we are not so stupid to open the doors to everybody...



Works for me. Is the supply sufficient to assure production, and ultimately shops and their customers?

When I purchased my Master Extra Light Saronni, I was told prices would continue to rise. Was this more a function of dollar vs. Euro, or a supply matter?

This Colnago fan would like to know, as I have several offers from team mates on my unused frameset. 

I have asserted they should just order one from our dealer.

Grazie!


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## mj3200

I can understand that from a commercial point of view, although I'll wait to see what iyeoh chimes in with because as a purchaser I would feel that these high end frames should be fabricated from a proprietary tubeset. But hats off to Colnago for keeping it all within the Italian border.

Personally I'm all right Jack I have my Master with Columbus tubing and, although it means less to me somehow, my C50 from ATR stock - just curious about these things.

On the Made in Italy front I always thought of my Gazelle to be Dutch and my Peugeot to be French although they are both made from British tubing strangely enugh.

I wonder if tubing is in such short supply, if I sent a set of 953 to them would they make a nice shiny MXL out of that for me - I'd need the Gilco section rolled in mind. Now that would be worth a big premium to me!!


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## Clevor

Many different topics on this thread. Here are my 0.02 cents:

It's funny that people here are complaining about Toray CF when Pinarello is exultant about it and boasting it in all their ads. I presume it's the same CF in Formula One cars. Maybe Ferrari has already switched over from ATR.

People forget about the Colnago geometry: the short top tubes and long stem is supposed to position you over the center of the bike, to provide it's magical ride qualities. This is probably why the frames can get away with such a slack head tube angle and fork rake. But it was the forum member named C40 himself who said he quit Colnagos because the steering was too slow on steep downhills with sharp switchbacks.

I like to climb, and one of my rides here in Okinawa has an endless succession of 7-8%, 14-15%, and up to 19% grades. Since the highest mountain here is only around 1,000 feet, the grades go straight up, no switchbacks. I was thinking of getting the best climbing frame there is, but it's probably the Giant beater bike I ride. It has a long top tube which puts most your weight behind the rear wheel, with short chainstays. It's a 2005 frame which was designed to help Ullrich climb against LA. Using the same train of thought, the Colnago frames wouldn't make the best climbers. As for Rasmussen, well the doping and his emaciated condition could have explained that.

The reason melons are so expensive in Japan is because here, aesthetics is just as important as taste. The farmers turn each melon over periodically so it doesn't develop the typical 'bare' spot as on U.S. ones. They do the same with watermelons (they even sell ones shaped like cubes). Grapes and peaches are individually wrapped in a paper bag to protect against blemishes and insects - lotta manual labor here. The farms are small operations and emphasis is on quality, not quantity. Blossoms are hand culled so the less fruit on the branch, the larger it is. All fruit is tree-ripened, not picked green to account for transport. Turnips here are so round and even in size, it doesn't look like something to eat.

As for complaints about frame manufacturers turning to the Far East for manufacture, snooze you loose. I'm glad I got my C50 and all my (ole) 10-speed Record components in 2004-2005, when everything was made in Italy (Record anyway). I figure I can build an all Italian bike except I'd fall short on the handlebar. I'd use a $400 Deda Campione, and it would fool a lot of people. But I'm not into that anyway. The problem for most would be the crank, as Campy quit making chainrings in Italy around 2004, but I own the first carbon crank they made in 2003 :wink5:.


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## ComesAtime

I was gonna buy a Bugatti but I hear they get their parts from all over the place (engine from Germany, cockpit from Italy). What a piece of crap.


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## Clevor

ComesAtime said:


> I was gonna buy a Bugatti but I hear they get their parts from all over the place (engine from Germany, cockpit from Italy). What a piece of crap.


Hey, a German engine isn't anything bad.

Buying something for the sake of the name is not worth it these days. I just bought a Cinelli Bianca Palm handlebar. Granted it is an aluminum piece, BUT I CANNOT BELIEVE THE WEIGHT OF THIS THING! I swear to God it weighs 342 gms! The bar says 'Designed in Italy'. What was Cinelli thinking??? This is not an integrated bar and stem, it is a 42 cm handlebar. Even a cheap, $20 Nashbar 6061T bar I bought for mockups weighs 265 gms. I guess it must be all the powdercoat paint.

I have to keep it since I like the white finish with red/black Cinelli graphics, since it matches my Ridley Boreas candy red/white frame. Also the bike is a trainer bike, so the weight isn't that important. But you put on a light fork to lose 100 gms and instead it goes to the handlebar.


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## bolt30

Clevor said:


> It's funny that people here are complaining about Toray CF when Pinarello is exultant about it and boasting it in all their ads. I presume it's the same CF in Formula One cars. Maybe Ferrari has already switched over from ATR.



I agree. In fact, instead of burying this piece of information in their website, Colnago should boast about it like Pinarello does. Better to be up front about about it and tell people they went with Toray for XYZ reason.

Good point to that someone else mentioned: Japan is the number 2 country for Colnago sales. I see more Pinarellos and Colnagos here than I have ever seen anywhere else.


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## iyeoh

mj3200 said:


> I'll wait to see what iyeoh chimes in


Sir,

I'm done with my comments. Like I said, I'm now going to really treasure the Colangos I have even more. Until such time I can get the truth, my buying ceases. 

The company has stated its reasons, and I honour their explanation, but I also have the perrogative to remain highly skeptical, not to accuse anyone of anything. I shall refrain from further wise cracks because it always seems to get a couple of panties twisted into knots. 

Then there are those who lose my point altogether, which is: I don't care if a certain tube set brings afterburner rocket boosters to my rear end, gives me a virtual 50 lb. weight loss to haul my butt up those hills and gives me stealth capabilities like the F-22 Raptor in the middle of the pack, I'll be DAMNED if anything Japanese/Taiwanese finds its way onto my Italian bikes. I remember receiving a set of handbuilt wheels two decades ago as a gift, and then having the same bike shop that built them disassemble them to get rid of the Mavic rims. Oh yeah. I sound like some bigotted Aryran don't I? I've been called all sorts of names, and I love the xenophobic accusations, because I'm 100% ethnic Asian, and Chinese with Taiwanese roots, no less.


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## ComesAtime

iyeoh said:


> Sir,
> 
> *I'm done with my comments.* Like I said, I'm now going to really treasure the Colangos I have even more. Until such time I can get the truth, my buying ceases.
> 
> The company has stated its reasons, and I honour their explanation, but I also have the perrogative to remain highly skeptical, not to accuse anyone of anything. I shall refrain from further wise cracks because it always seems to get a couple of panties twisted into knots.
> 
> Then there are those who lose my point altogether, which is: I don't care if a certain tube set brings afterburner rocket boosters to my rear end, gives me a virtual 50 lb. weight loss to haul my butt up those hills and gives me stealth capabilities like the F-22 Raptor in the middle of the pack, I'll be DAMNED if anything Japanese/Taiwanese finds its way onto my Italian bikes. I remember receiving a set of handbuilt wheels two decades ago as a gift, and then having the same bike shop that built them disassemble them to get rid of the Mavic rims. Oh yeah. I sound like some bigotted Aryran don't I? I've been called all sorts of names, and I love the xenophobic accusations, because I'm 100% ethnic Asian, and Chinese with Taiwanese roots, no less.


Could have fooled me.


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## gomango

ComesAtime said:


> Could have fooled me.


Agreed, time to check out of this little chat.


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## bolt30

iyeoh said:


> I'll be DAMNED if anything Japanese/Taiwanese finds its way onto my Italian bikes.


Given globalization and economies of scale you likely won't be buying any more bikes Colnago was a hold out and an exception. To be honest, they needed to make the changes they have made for their survival. From now on, the only way you will get a 100% Italian made bike is to either take Colnago Italy's word for it that their steel is from Milan or to buy from small, hand build frame builders in Italy. I'm not thrilled about it myself, but it won't keep me from buying another Colnago in the future.


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## chuckice

I'm guessing Campy carbon isn't 100% Italian...


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## ComesAtime

bolt30 said:


> Given globalization and economies of scale you likely won't be buying any more *CARBON* bikes


Fixed. There are still sleel builders using Italian steel tubes.


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## fabsroman

Clevor said:


> Hey, a German engine isn't anything bad.
> 
> Buying something for the sake of the name is not worth it these days. I just bought a Cinelli Bianca Palm handlebar. Granted it is an aluminum piece, BUT I CANNOT BELIEVE THE WEIGHT OF THIS THING! I swear to God it weighs 342 gms! The bar says 'Designed in Italy'. What was Cinelli thinking??? This is not an integrated bar and stem, it is a 42 cm handlebar. Even a cheap, $20 Nashbar 6061T bar I bought for mockups weighs 265 gms. I guess it must be all the powdercoat paint.
> 
> I have to keep it since I like the white finish with red/black Cinelli graphics, since it matches my Ridley Boreas candy red/white frame. Also the bike is a trainer bike, so the weight isn't that important. But you put on a light fork to lose 100 gms and instead it goes to the handlebar.


The CInelli Ram bar/stem combo isn't light either. I think mines weighs 430 grams. I went with the Ram Bar and Neo stem at a combined weight of 350 grams for my C50. 220 grams for the bar and 130 grams for the stem. It amazes me that a one piece bar and stem combo like the Ram Bar weighs 430 grams. I just weighed the one I have sitting around and it is 446 grams with the spacer taped to it.

The Cinelli Ram bar I bought in 2006 says Made in Italy. The ones I bought in 2007 and 2008 say Designed in Italy. I can notice a little difference between them too and prefer the Made in Italy one.


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## iyeoh

chuckice said:


> I'm guessing Campy carbon isn't 100% Italian...


I guess not.


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## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> The Cinelli Ram bar I bought in 2006 says Made in Italy. The ones I bought in 2007 and 2008 say Designed in Italy. I can notice a little difference between them too and prefer the Made in Italy one.


Designed in Italy


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## Clevor

chuckice said:


> I'm guessing Campy carbon isn't 100% Italian...


So what, neither are 100% of the metal parts! It was known way back in 2004 that non-Record components were fair game to being made in Romania, e.g. Chorus. The 'Made in Italy' imprint was disappearing from their crank rings back then. But you bring up a good point as I've never thought about their carbon bits. More than likely these days it's not Toray stuff from Japan but cheap 3K stuff from China or Taiwan, as the parts are not really structural but mainly eye candy.

And it's going to get worse with Campy:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2116284&page=7&highlight=campagnolo+campy+china

I had a hunch Fulcrum components were being made in Taiwan, and looks like manufacture of other stuff will be migrating there also.


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## Clevor

Hey, nothing wrong with Toray stuff. Pedalforce frames use it!

http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=101740&products_id=13613

Don't forget to notice the price on those frames :ihih:.


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## iyeoh

Clevor said:


> Hey, nothing wrong with Toray stuff. Pedalforce frames use it!
> 
> http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=101740&products_id=13613
> 
> Don't forget to notice the price on those frames :ihih:.



So, let me try to make sense of that... they manage to sell a frame for $890 and still be in business. The other company charges $5,500.


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## Clevor

iyeoh said:


> So, let me try to make sense of that... they manage to sell a frame for $890 and still be in business. The other company charges $5,500.


At least Pedalforce can build a semi-Toray frame that weighs 880 gms, explain why Fausto builds a $5,500 Dogma that weighs 1400 gms .

Actually the story with Pinarellos I think goes like this:

- $4,000 Paris Carbon wins Bicycling Mag's Bike of the Year for 2007, noted for sharp handling but comfortable 'all day' ride

- $5,000 Prince comes out in 2008 and 2009 and really, some have complained about the harsh and stiff ride, rattling and so forth. The CF is very stiff, but too thin, like a pop can (ever ride a Cannondale CAAD frame? Same thing in aluminum). Damn sexy looking bike, though.

- So in 2010 Pinarello comes out with the $5,500 Dogma, where they have beefed up the tubes to dampen the frame. The Dogma looks like a Prince on steroids. So now it rides like guess what? A Paris Carbon! We've come full circle!

Why spend $5,500 on a Dogma when you can buy a used Paris frame cheap on Ebay? But people want the latest and greatest . . .


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## ComesAtime

Clevor said:


> Why spend $5,500 on a Dogma when you can buy a used Paris frame cheap on Ebay? But people want the latest and greatest . . .


Who would want a bike that looks and rides better for less money?


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## chuckice

Clevor said:


> So what, neither are 100% of the metal parts! It was known way back in 2004 that non-Record components were fair game to being made in Romania, e.g. Chorus. The 'Made in Italy' imprint was disappearing from their crank rings back then. But you bring up a good point as I've never thought about their carbon bits. More than likely these days it's not Toray stuff from Japan but cheap 3K stuff from China or Taiwan, as the parts are not really structural but mainly eye candy.
> 
> And it's going to get worse with Campy:
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2116284&page=7&highlight=campagnolo+campy+china
> 
> I had a hunch Fulcrum components were being made in Taiwan, and looks like manufacture of other stuff will be migrating there also.


I don't care either...my point is anyone trying to make a modern component 100% Italian bike with 100% carbon is likely chasing a unicorn, so it's best to acknowledge and move on.


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## Jimbolina

So am I to understand Columbus no longer manufactures its steel tubesets in Italy?

Does anyone know which tubing was used to build the new Ciocc 'Replica' frameset?

Was this particular tubeset made in Taiwan as well?

Thanks,
Jim


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## mj3200

I was wondering that myself.

The Columbus website seems to be all business as usual.


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## Jimbolina

I'm concerned as I'm also one of those old-school nuts who love Italian cycling gear, and believe if it is made in Italy, it's MADE in Italy!

I also know Columbus does do work with Taiwan and more and more companies (like Cinelli, etc) are getting their fabrication from Taiwan and even China.

I guess I'm also hoping Columbus would at least keep their old stand-by product lines produced in their home country.

I'll be interested in how this particular dust settles...

Jim


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## ComesAtime

I mentioned this Columbus BS to Dario Pegoretti today. He still hasn't stopped laughing yet. I let you know when he does... I think there was some profanity in there too, but my Italian isn't what it used to be.


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## bolt30

ComesAtime said:


> I mentioned this Columbus BS to Dario Pegoretti today. He still hasn't stopped laughing yet. I let you know when he does... I think there was some profanity in there too, but my Italian isn't what it used to be.


Sorry, but can you elaborate on what he was laughing about? Just curious.

Thanks.


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## chuckice

I called Ernesto today and he had the same reaction.


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## ComesAtime

bolt30 said:


> Sorry, but can you elaborate on what he was laughing about? Just curious.
> 
> Thanks.


He found the part that Columbus was no longer making steel tubes in Italy quit funny. Especially the one with his name on it.


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## ComesAtime

chuckice said:


> I called Ernesto today and he had the same reaction.


One can actually be contacted and will be happy to talk to you. One can't/won't.


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## mtbbmet

And one was away from the phone all day while he was in DC.


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## chuckice

I'm gonna call Tulio on my ouija board this AM. Anyone have any other questions they'd like answered?


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## mtbbmet

chuckice said:


> I'm gonna call Tulio on my ouija board this AM. Anyone have any other questions they'd like answered?


 Find out when electronic 11sp is coming out, and if all the electronics will be made in Italy. I'm assuming that Italy is a leading force in caps, IC's and servos. As well as board level componentry design.
For what it's worth, they ain't bad at it. At least in the medical field.


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## chuckice

mtbbmet said:


> Find out when electronic 11sp is coming out, and if all the electronics will be made in Italy. I'm assuming that Italy is a leading force in caps, IC's and servos. As well as board level componentry design.
> For what it's worth, they ain't bad at it. At least in the medical field.


He hung up on me when I broke the news to him about 11sp.


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## ComesAtime

mtbbmet said:


> And one was away from the phone all day while he was in DC.


Come on down/up/over to the show and I'll introduce you. You can actually talk to 20 other builders who use Columbus tubing who will laugh at you too.:thumbsup:

PS: Richmond isn't D.C.


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## ComesAtime

chuckice said:


> I'm gonna call Tulio on my ouija board this AM. Anyone have any other questions they'd like answered?


You have a better shot at contacting him then Ernesto..:cryin:


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## WrenchScienceCliff

Just spoke with Ben from Cinelli and Fabrizio (spelling?) from Columbus, who are both at the show in Richmond right now. 
Here's the scoop:
-All steel and alloy tubesets are being manufactured in Italy, with exception to two (see below)
-No new production has been transferred to Taiwan
-2 new entry-level steel tubesets (Chromoly, seamed) are being designed by Columbus and produced in Taiwan and Japan starting this year
-Several carbon tubesets are made in Taiwan following Columbus design, standards
-Colnago's DT15V tubeset is no longer purchased from Columbus, thus the lack of Columbus sticker


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## ComesAtime

WrenchScienceCliff said:


> I've spoken with three separate Italian company inside reps who have indicated in certain terms that Columbus is no longer manufacturing tubing in Italy. Colnago is however still fabricating their Master tubing in Milan.
> In regard to Columbus, I would love to hear some *specific* information from ComesAtime or other users on the board that have been saying how silly this whole conversation is. Forums are full of enough misinformation as it is, and the fact that your buddies are laughing at us is not particularly informative or helpful.


When you provide real proof, I will. I'll take the word of builders who have tubes made exclusively for them by Columbus over the "experts" (what a joke) at shops in the US. Give me a break buddy.


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## WrenchScienceCliff

Well ComesAtime, I would really appreciate a more respectful tone. I never claimed to be a Columbus expert, and I'm genuinely interested in your knowledge. Like others on this forum, I'm trying to sort through a lot of conflicting information. I don't see this as a question of who is right or wrong, most likely we both have some pieces of the truth here.
You could call my proof a rumor, but, for instance, I trust the staff at Colnago. When Columbus stopped making DT15V steel in Italy, Colnago stopped sourcing from Columbus and maintained production in Milan.
My best guess is that it depends on which tubing we're talking about. Perhaps Columbus still makes a smaller array of tubesets in Italy (perhaps that is where your builders are sourcing), but is otherwise mostly sourcing from Asia.


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## ComesAtime

I believe that Colnago is no longer using Columbus and considering no other builder (to my knowlege) used that tubing, I don't doubt it's been scrapped all together. I won't believe Columbus is no longer making tubes in Italy until better proof then the word of people building with Columbus that I have asked. I will ask around more this weekend. Maybe someone with real knowlege will shed some light.


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## gomango

ComesAtime said:


> I believe that Colnago is no longer using Columbus and considering no other builder (to my knowlege) used that tubing, I don't doubt it's been scrapped all together. I won't believe Columbus is no longer making tubes in Italy until better proof then the word of people building with Columbus that I have asked. I will ask around more this weekend. Maybe someone with real knowlege will shed some light.


Thank you for your efforts.


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## WrenchScienceCliff

Just spoke with Ben from Cinelli and Fabrizio (spelling?) from Columbus, who are both at the show in Richmond right now. 
Here's the scoop:
-All steel and alloy tubesets are being manufactured in Italy, with exception to two (see below)
-No new production has been transferred to Taiwan
-2 new entry-level steel tubesets (Chromoly, seamed) are being designed by Columbus and produced in Taiwan and Japan starting this year
-Several carbon tubesets are made in Taiwan following Columbus design, standards
-Colnago's DT15V tubeset is no longer purchased from Columbus, thus the lack of Columbus sticker


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## chuckice

WrenchScienceCliff said:


> Just spoke with Ben from Cinelli and Fabrizio (spelling?) from Columbus, who are both at the show in Richmond right now.
> Here's the scoop:
> -All steel and alloy tubesets are being manufactured in Italy, with exception to two (see below)
> -No new production has been transferred to Taiwan
> -2 new entry-level steel tubesets (Chromoly, seamed) are being designed by Columbus and produced in Taiwan and Japan starting this year
> -Several carbon tubesets are made in Taiwan following Columbus design, standards
> -Colnago's DT15V tubeset is no longer purchased from Columbus, thus the lack of Columbus sticker


Good to know...thanks for doing this Cliff.


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## ComesAtime

WrenchScienceCliff said:


> Just spoke with Ben from Cinelli and Fabrizio (spelling?) from Columbus, who are both at the show in Richmond right now.
> Here's the scoop:
> -All steel and alloy tubesets are being manufactured in Italy, with exception to two (see below)
> -No new production has been transferred to Taiwan
> -2 new entry-level steel tubesets (Chromoly, seamed) are being designed by Columbus and produced in Taiwan and Japan starting this year
> -Several carbon tubesets are made in Taiwan following Columbus design, standards
> -Colnago's DT15V tubeset is no longer purchased from Columbus, thus the lack of Columbus sticker


On the nose..


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## iyeoh

Cost cutting at its finest.

Come back to my point. If DT15V is proprietary and if they hold the intellectual property rights, then where is the competitive threat in revealing the revised source of the DT15V tubes? What is the fear that some other bike company finds out what this source is when no one else uses DT15V?

What looks like it, and smells like it, usually is it....

What other business rationale is there besides simply using a cheaper source. After a good 20 years of supplying DT15V, Columbus wakes up one morning and decides to rationalize this high margin business... likely story...


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## ComesAtime

iyeoh said:


> After a good 20 years of supplying DT15V, Columbus wakes up one morning and decides to rationalize this high margin business... likely story...


Don't quote me, but I don't think said tube set is that old. I think they started using it in 1998 or 1999 on masters?

PS: Who said they are or have to rationalize the move?


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## iyeoh

ComesAtime said:


> Don't quote me, but I don't think said tube set is that old. I think they started using it in 1998 or 1999 on masters?


Oh. The first variant of the DT15V first appeared on the Master in 1988, and then the Master Piu, then the Master Olympic/Light. I own one of the very first Master Olympics ever made, and that was a Fall 1982 bike after Fabio Casartelli won the Olympics in Barcelona. 

The Master X Lite is just a marketing ploy. Its the same exact tubeset as the Master Light, except that the MXL went threadless headset. Otherwise, the MXL and the ML are identical bikes. I own an early MXL myself. The stickers of the MXL and the ML are exactly the same, and the MXL is not some super light frame either.

The original Master was about 1/4 to 1/2 pound heavier than a SLX Conic frame, but the improvement in stiffness was phenomenal for heavy types like me. I never encountered a Master C-Record-Delta bike that weighed less than 21-22 pounds. 

Anyway, its incongruous that Columbus would suddenly stop supplying DT15V tubes on their own accord.


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## ComesAtime

iyeoh said:


> Anyway,* its incongruous* that Columbus would suddenly stop supplying DT15V tubes on their own accord.


Why? It's all a marketing ploy after all. I like you. You're funny...


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## ComesAtime

iyeoh said:


> Oh. The first variant of the DT15V first appeared on the Master in 1988,


We are talking about a specific set of tubes. Not a variation. All steel tubes are variations of one another if you really wanna break it down, which I do not, so i'm gonna move along.


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## gomango

Thank you to WrenchScienceCliff for going out of his way to bring in quality information. 

As for marketing ploys, this company gives their fans extras. I was at our lbs today gawking at the bikes on the way home from a needed, yet freezing cold ride. There was a brand new EPS in the window and I had to take a closer look. I parked my son's Super. The owner said hi, and he made some comments about how much he enjoyed seeing the bike. We went on to have a nice conversation about his EPS w/o an ounce of sales pressure. Before I left, he gave me a beautifully produced pamphlet entitled " Inside Colnago" that looks like a keeper, as well as a very nice DVD about Ernesto Colnago. He asked me if I was ready to build up my new marketing ploy Master Extra Light. I said, nope, I need some more of the excellent advice I receive on the ol' internet. 

Couldn't get it right without some of you.


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## kbbpll

I stumbled on this thread and it's a fascinating read. My 2010 Master X-Light says "Made in Italy", and I guess I kinda like that. It's also signed "Ernesto Colnago", and I guess I kinda like that too. It rides like a dream, so I really like that. And it's the only stock 65cm framemaker left that I could find on this particular planet, so I probably like that the most.


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## 1Cebu

love this thread...... informative, funny and thought-evoking ..... please keep this moving...


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## Eyorerox

From Colnago website

http://www.colnago.com/technology/materials

The first Colnago bicycles were made from steel and so steel is still close to our heart. The Master X-Light's Columbus DT15V tubing gets its strength from chromium, molybdenum and vanadium alloying elements and is butted and shaped to our exact specifications.


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## clm2206

iyeoh said:


> So, let me try to make sense of that... they manage to sell a frame for $890 and still be in business. The other company charges $5,500.


Pedalforce doesn't sponsor any cycling team. Part of the sale price difference goes to finance BBOx and CSF Colnagos, and Caisse d'Epargne Pinarellos. That's the point.


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## WrenchScienceCliff

Eyorerox said:


> From Colnago website
> 
> http://www.colnago.com/technology/materials
> 
> The first Colnago bicycles were made from steel and so steel is still close to our heart. The Master X-Light's Columbus DT15V tubing gets its strength from chromium, molybdenum and vanadium alloying elements and is butted and shaped to our exact specifications.


I'm afraid that the information under "Materials" on the Colnago site needs some editing/updating. Colnago is still using the DT15V steel, which was originally formulated in collaboration with Columbus. However, Columbus is no longer supplying Colnago, instead another steel company in Milan is the producer. In my experience with this new supplier, there is no discernible difference in the build or ride quality of the MXLs.

Of course, this has all been rehashed earlier in the thread...oh well! The thread is kinda turning into a mobius strip...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Möbius_strip


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## mj3200

iyeoh said:


> Oh. The first variant of the DT15V first appeared on the Master in 1988, and then the Master Piu, then the Master Olympic/Light. I own one of the very first Master Olympics ever made, and that was a Fall 1982 bike after Fabio Casartelli won the Olympics in Barcelona.
> 
> The Master X Lite is just a marketing ploy. Its the same exact tubeset as the Master Light, except that the MXL went threadless headset. Otherwise, the MXL and the ML are identical bikes. I own an early MXL myself. The stickers of the MXL and the ML are exactly the same, and the MXL is not some super light frame either.
> 
> The original Master was about 1/4 to 1/2 pound heavier than a SLX Conic frame, but the improvement in stiffness was phenomenal for heavy types like me. I never encountered a Master C-Record-Delta bike that weighed less than 21-22 pounds.
> 
> Anyway, its incongruous that Columbus would suddenly stop supplying DT15V tubes on their own accord.


 Sorry I haven't been looking in for a while, but to add my own experience here. I have a MXL at 1580g; a 753 at 1560g and an SLX at 1890g all on the same scales all 54cm.

Since I first posted I met a guy who worked at Reynolds Tubing in Birmingham and he was telling me that in the late 1980's to early 1990's that they were supplying Columbus who were having difficulties at times with output.

Before I hear all the nae sayers, he is just a reliable retied fella who worked there who volunteered the info without prompt and who knew the product range inside out but who had no interest in cycling. I asked if it was a two way street with Columbus but he had no idea.

I work closely with Europe's two largest glass manufacturers and they openly cross produce at times to even out order anomalies on certain products.

I wonder if the manufacturer of the tubing for Colnago is Mannesman?


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## mj3200

Sorry I haven't been looking in for a while, but to add my own experience here. I have a MXL at 1580g; a 753 at 1560g and an SLX at 1890g all on the same scales all 54cm.

Since I first posted I met a guy who worked at Reynolds Tubing in Birmingham and he was telling me that in the late 1980's to early 1990's that they were supplying Columbus who were having difficulties at times with output.

Before I hear all the nae sayers, he is just a reliable retied fella who worked there who volunteered the info without prompt and who knew the product range inside out but who had no interest in cycling. I asked if it was a two way street with Columbus but he had no idea.

I work closely with Europe's two largest glass manufacturers and they openly cross produce at times to even out order anomalies on certain products.

I wonder if the manufacturer of the tubing for Colnago is Mannesman?


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## jjp

I just stumbled upon this thread, and I have to say that it has been enlightening, interesting and entertaining. And in light of it, I am definatley glad that I bought my full Campy Record 10 groupo, with Cinelli RAM (made in Italy) Master in 2005. The frame was built in 2004 (according to the manual that came with, which also bears the signature of the guy who built it), and made with Columbus DT1V tubing, as per the sticker at the bottom of the seat tube. 100% Italian. Recently, I bought a NOS C40 B Stay, which was built in 2003 (according to Colnago). According to the information in this thread, I can find comfort in knowing that the frame was made by Colnago, in Italy, with Italian carbon fibre. Again, 100% Italian. I will never get rid of either of these bikes.


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## colnago butch

As a Certified Master Watchmaker for over 20 years, I hate to correct all of you, but Rolak or Rolex does not make the world's finest watches. Check out IWC, Patek or Vacheron for a REAL high grade piece. In my opinion, V & C is #1.
My Saroni Red 1984 Colnago Victory is on the road almost daily.


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## jjp

I don't wear watches.


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