# Lemond spine ti/c steel/c bike lovers unite



## cerveloguy

I bought a 3 month old Lemond Beunos Aires steel/carbon frame off ebay for $475. I built up the bike with 9 sp DA, Stronglight 50/36 compact cranks, Rotor Q rings, Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork, Neuvation M28 Aeros, Veloflex Black tires, Richey WCS stem, Kestrel EMS Pro bars, Fizik Arione.

I had the gruppo and some of the other parts from my old aluminium Giant TCR, so my investment in this bike was about a grand or so.

Man I love this bike.Fits me like a glove and does everything right. The ride is so much nicer than my old TCR. I don't road race but use the bike for fast group rides, hill rides, centuries and technical/hilly triathlons with adding shorty Profile GT aero bars.

This bike rides as well as some of the very expensive high end bikes that I've tried. I would imagine the ti/carbon version might even be a bit nicer. 

Anybody else sad to see Lemond stop producing these bikes?


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## hclignett

*my buenos aires*

I own an 04 buenos aires thats been upgraded to dura-ace 10 with reynolds alta race wheelset and speedmax bars. 
I was surprised when they stopped building the american made frames and went to the new all carbon fiber models. I love mine and use it for centuries and all around riding here in the eastern sierras. I'm in the middle of building a climbing bike with my left over parts, so I can use my buenos aires for long distance rides and not wear it out on the hills around here.

hc


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## whateveronfire

It's a real shame they stopped making these. I have an 04 Zurich that I picked up NOS last year. It's full Ultegra (glad I got the 04, in 05 they started mixing in too many Bontrager parts for my taste). It's the best riding bike I've been on.

I really wish I had had a chance at a ti/carbon to try, too. Ah well, the steel is nice.

Another covet-wrothy version was the B.A. with Veloce, which I think is the 04 as well. Campy and the spine frame seems drool worthy. Not that there's anything to complain about with the Ultegra.

Why they went to the alu/carbon is beyond me.


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## Richard

whateveronfire said:


> Why they went to the alu/carbon is beyond me.


One word. Weight.

We are still sitting on an '04 Buenos Aires (granted it's a 49cm) but we had trouble selling the steel/carbon Buenos Aires' and Zurich's all through the run.

The BA and the Zurich were "specced" identical to the then Trek 5000 and 5200 at around the same price. Customers would pick up the LeMond and then the Trek and not even bother to test ride the LeMond.

If we still had a 57cm in stock, I'd grab it.


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## VaughnA

As a rider of a Carbon/Ti Tete I can say IMHO that the spine bikes were very underrated and underappreciated. Every person that I know that owns one loves it. I've personally recommended them to 4 people that have tried, bought and love them. And no, I don't work in an LBS. They are a little heavier but the ride is remarkable. Sorry to see them go.


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## hell_on_wheels

I own an '05 Zurich with full Ultegra 10. For me, it was love at first ride when I got on this bike. It just feels great, and fits like a glove. It's too bad they stopped making the steel and ti versions, and went to aluminum. The reality is that the market is driven by demand, and there's not much demand for steel.


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## whateveronfire

The weight question is interesting. My Zurich weighs 20 pounds or so. I weighed it and a 5200 at the LBS where I bought it. The 5200 was certainly lighter, but the ride feel on the Zurich is so much nicer.

One interesting thing was when I was hanging out waiting for them to swap out the handlebars, I was talking to one of the salespeople about the NOS LeMonds they had sitting around. She said that they would get folks coming in looking for the spines occasionally so they figured they sell them all eventually, but they still have a couple of the full-ti bikes (Victoire I think) and just could not get rid of them. She was not a fan of the all-ti LeMonds and said she only ever tried to sell them to people who had ridden other ti LeMonds.

Has anyone ridden both the steel/carbon and the ti/carbon and can tell we (few, proud) fans how they compare?


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## harvestlaser

i would say that anyone that has ridden one has fallen in love.


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## Richard

whateveronfire said:


> Has anyone ridden both the steel/carbon and the ti/carbon and can tell we (few, proud) fans how they compare?


Quality steel and ti have similar ride qualities. I've only ridden the two LeMonds in question for short distances and, aside from the weight, couldn't really tell the difference.


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## stevecaz

It is sad to see them go, but such is innovation and market trends. Another guy on bikeforums just asked about buying a closeout 2006 Victoire for $1700. I told him go for it. 
But the reality is bike manufacturers need to have a sub-1kg carbon frame in their lineup. To make the desired price-points Lemond needs to sell bikes, they had to take it overseas. But at least they came up with clearly a unique design all their own in the Triomphe carbon series, and looking at the actual street price of these in the store, they hit the mark for price points with such a nice frame. My opinion was they should have model names for parts distinction only and not on the frame itself, then allow customers to buy any model in any of the offered frame colors. That would really give them an edge in the market, as we all know cyclists are vain and color coordinate even if not admitted. 

Well back to the spine. The single issue if I had to hunt for one with my 55cm Lemond is the steep 73.5 degree headtube matched with a 370mm height 45mm rake fork. That was a poor choice and they should have held the 53cm headtube angle of 73 degrees over to the 55cm as well, or changed the fork rake. The resulting trail of ~52.6mm leads to razor sharp handling, but also needs constant attention to keep the bike in a perfect straight line. Handling is also affected by stem length, and with my 100mm stem the small trail is exaggerated even more in steering response. A smaller rake fork would have been better on this geometry, but of course they were limited to Bontrager forks really made for Trek. So I'm trying other forks to see the difference. The 53cm frame and smaller sizes have better more stable steering geometries. I don't think a 53mm trail falls into the "Lemond Geometry" philosophy, but I'd love to ask Greg himself. 
But I'm amplifying the one issue I have with mine. Otherwise is is incredibly comfortable, quick, and stiff and a dream to ride on centuries.

EDIT: I guess I don't have to ask, I now know. I found an old review of his personnal bike, a custom carbon fiber frame made by Composite Bicycles (where Calfee was working at the time) to his specs and and under his own Lemond brand. He had a trail of 60mm in a frame size equivalent to about 53cm.


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## cerveloguy

I have a 53cm. I originally purchased it as a frame/fork off ebay with the original Bontrager Race fork with 45mm rake. I thought the original fork was a bit heavy and replaced it with a lighter Reynold's Ouzo Pro with 43mm. This effected the handling in a very negative way. You wouldn't think 2mm of fork rake would make a difference, but it most definately did. I quickly replaced this with a 45mm Reynold's Ouzo Pro and the handling was much better again. Lemond must have known what they were doing, when they went with the 45mm fork.


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## stevecaz

*And heres why*



cerveloguy said:


> I have a 53cm. I originally purchased it as a frame/fork off ebay with the original Bontrager Race fork with 45mm rake. I thought the original fork was a bit heavy and replaced it with a lighter Reynold's Ouzo Pro with 43mm. This effected the handling in a very negative way. You wouldn't think 2mm of fork rake would make a difference, but it most definately did. I quickly replaced this with a 45mm Reynold's Ouzo Pro and the handling was much better again. Lemond must have known what they were doing, when they went with the 45mm fork.


Your 53cm has a 73 degree head tube angle with a 370mm height fork. With the 372mm height of the Ouzo Pro, that makes the head tube angle 72.88 degrees. So, with that new head tube angle and the 43mm rake, your effective trail becomes almost 59mm or 4 mm greater than stock form. When you went to a 45mm rake Ouzo fork, the trail dropped 2 mm to around 56.5mm, a very nice number. There is no doubt why you considered handling bad with the 43mm Ouzo. While a 59mm trail is the range used on many bikes and many people would like it, it is also considered slow handling by many, and again this is personnal preference. 57mm is a number considered by many frame builders as a good balance between stability and responsiveness. Many people can not tell the difference in a few cm of trail difference, then again many can. 

My discussion on my 55cm frame geometry revolves around the very low trail on this particular size, and why I'd like to bring it up to around the same 56.5mm trail you have now. The Bontrager XXX Lite fork was only available in 45mm rake. Most bikes will change fork rake with sizes to achieve the desired geometry. Lemond didn't have the choice available to them so all sizes got the same fork. In the case of the 55cm frame for the intended rider height range, I think it was a compromise for what the designers would have really wanted.The "Lemond Geometry" is supposed to have "neutral handling", but I doubt any frame designer would call a 52.6mm trail neutral. I would call your current setup fairly neutral though.


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## harvestlaser

this is off subject but i have a perfect lemond project one, 53cm, lemond steel spine that i am thinking about selling. 
i know i shouldnt post things for sale here but i have sold many things on this site and just wanted to get the word in the right place for some one looking. i am not really that motivated but its been sitting for 6+months.


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## burl81

I am very interested in buying. I have a 2004 55cm zurich and love it. BUT, I really need to be on a 53cm. What year is yours and are you still selling?


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## biker_boy

*Switching from 5200*

Hey,

I'm sitting on a too-small-for-me 5200 frame and am thinking about snagging a lemond spine. How much of a weight difference am I looking at, realistically? I've got about 40 pounds of body weight to lose before I even think about comparing the weight of my frame and other components, but it'd be nice to know how much heavier this frame will be. Steel/Carbon spine, 61cm.


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## cerveloguy

Lemond doesn't publish their frame weights officially but I've heard several people say the frame is 3.4 lbs fr size 55. It'll be a bit heavier than a 5200, but not all that much


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## Richard

biker_boy said:


> Hey,
> 
> I'm sitting on a too-small-for-me 5200 frame and am thinking about snagging a lemond spine. How much of a weight difference am I looking at, realistically? I've got about 40 pounds of body weight to lose before I even think about comparing the weight of my frame and other components, but it'd be nice to know how much heavier this frame will be. Steel/Carbon spine, 61cm.


Frame only, the weight difference is about a pound and a half. That comes from weighing identically specced Zurich's and 5200's in equivalent sizes. In my opinion, for a 61cm, go for it.:thumbsup:


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## biker_boy

Alright, I pulled the trigger. Lemond for me!


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## cerveloguy

You won't regret it.


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## VaughnA

Nope you will have no regrets. 

On a side note, our local trek shop talked to their rep a couple of years ago. Although he had a choice of any trek bike, he chose the spine Tete-De Course. And both guys that worked on the trek demo days trailer a couple of years ago said that they preferred the spine bikes over the trek carbons and had them for their personal bikes. The spine bikes were great, viva le spine!!


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## biker_boy

Wow. Is this thing sweeeeeet. I can't wait to build it up! I'll post a picture later today!


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## stevecaz

biker_boy said:


> Wow. Is this thing sweeeeeet. I can't wait to build it up! I'll post a picture later today!



Where's that picture??


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## biker_boy

Ha. Yeah. I got too excited at the prospect of building it up that I forgot to post it. I should have it built up (at least partially) tomorrow, and I'll post pictures of it then -- it used to be a triple, so it's orange with black/white decals. I'm ordering some white cable housing and griptape. I can't wait. I'm totally geeking out over this bike!

Does anyone have a white saddle they're looking to get rid of? Concor light, Flite, etc? I kind of want to stick with a neuvo-retro theme for this thing...


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## biker_boy

*61cm Versailles*

Hey,

Here's the picture from the auction. I haven't finished building it yet, but I'll post that picture when it's done.

This thing is amazing.


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## waterloo

biker boy check you PMs re: a saddle


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## stevecaz

I like the red.
Good score.


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## biker_boy

yeah, it's really an orange-ish red -- I had a klein that was the same color, they called it "Kalahari Blood Red".


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## cerveloguy

Here's a photo of mine:


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## cerveloguy

Sorry, can't get the photo host to work.


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## biker_boy

More to keep you guys interested. Here's the saddle I picked up from Waterloo (Thanks again, man!)

Selle San Marco M Saddle - White leather w/ World Champion Stripes. Awesome. Exactly what I wanted.

I'm using white cable housing and bar tape.

Quick Poll: What shifters do I use? I have all Ultegra 6600 components, but 9-speed 105 shifters. I'm upgrading.

Do I go with Ultegra 6600? I hate the way Shimano routes cables, but the new hood shape is much better than the last.

I could also go with Campagnolo Centaur (hot looking carbon) or SRAM Rival. Both of these have under-the-tape brake/shift routing, which I prefer, and the hoods on both are more comfortable. I could use a jTek shiftmate to make up for the lack of compatibility.

Any thoughts?


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## allons-y

i really like the feel of sram rival in my limited time on it. i prefer how it shifts to campy. the thumb lever in a sprint or in the drops was akward for me......something to think about if you race...then again, its not much of a problem for boonen, bettini, or the other greats who ride campy...


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## biker_boy

went with the 105 shifters. go me. 

lack of cash makes it difficult to realize campy dreams. college blows.


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## CHAOTICMESS

*crit on a 2004 BA?*

Anyone out there race their Buenos Aires? I am planning on doing some crits this year on mine. Am I nuts or what? I have seen a few steel Lemonds racing but no carbon/steel.


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## cerveloguy

It's an identical geometry to the Tete de Course that Team Saturn dominated on, ther than the head tube being 1.5cm taller. I know a guy who raced a steel/carbon.


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## paddlerx

*My 05 Victoire, Modded out a bit*

I picked this up new back in 05 sight unseen after not being able to get a 5500 or a klein...imagine. Well suffice to say that i can still get prodeals from my lbs on a whole new lines of bikes and yet i can't make myself think that any of them would be a better bike than the Victoire. in hindsight i probably should have ordered a 55cm and not the 57 to get a bit more aggro in my riding position. but i may go after a more negative rise stem soon to compensate.
i'd like to see some numbers for flex/stiffness etc. i imagine i'm losing a bit to the full carbon rides but it'd be nice to know how much.

I've upgraded the original in the following ways:
ORA flat top carbon bar
Nokon cables (ala Campy style now)
Karbona Carbon stem (same as bontragers pretty much)
karbona carbon clincher wheelset (50mm)
Carbon compact cranks are en route.
Bonty race xxx lite post
Karbona Carbon seat (it was cheap and light...worth a try)
Just installed a Ritchey WCS full carbon fork (any idea on how this will affect handling???_
just installed Blue Chris King headset
DA 11-23 cassette
Mich Pro 2 Race tires

updated image. its all done for now.
thanks for looking:


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## Jaxattax

whateveronfire said:


> Has anyone ridden both the steel/carbon and the ti/carbon and can tell we (few, proud) fans how they compare?


My main ride is an '04 Victoire. I love that bike. It's fast, but comfortable. And at my age that's important.
Anyway, I'd been thinking of painting my back up '02 Zurich, but then realized it was going to cost about $450 for the complete job. So, instead I bought a used '04 Maillot Jaune frame on Ebay. The plan was to recycle the Zurich's parts. But, instead I bought a new Ultergra group, including a Shimano compact crank. Performance was having a sale on wheels; I couldn't resist. There's more, but to make this brief, the only parts I'm using from the Zurich are the pedals, stem, handlebars, seatpost, and saddle. When it's built up, pictures will be posted here.
Point is that in a few weeks I should be able to give you a highly biased opinion on the ride qualities of both frames.


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## biker_boy

Hey,

I didn't know this thread was still alive. Well, here's my ride -- almost complete!

Versailles Steel/Carbon Frame
Ultegra 6600 Crank, BB, Derailleurs
105 5600 Shifters
Bontrager Carbon Post


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## harvestlaser

here is a pic of my lemond, awesome riding bike dont need to say more.


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## cerveloguy

*Nice,,,,*

That's a beauty. Where did you get the custom paint?


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## harvestlaser

it is a rare project one paint scheme. i actually have it for sale right now but i am sure i will regret it. thanks.


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## biker_boy

Took mine out for the first ride today. Awesome. I need a shorter stem (I've got a 130 on there now, going to try a 120 tomorrow), but it's amazing. Extremely neutral handling, doesn't move from a line unless I tell it to. 

I love it. Worth every penny.


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## harvestlaser

thats a good way to put, "doesn't move from a line unless I tell it to" but then again it still doesnt feel over stable like a touring bike. I know it lemonds "trademark" geometry but you would think other companies would try something similiar.


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## biker_boy

No, that's the odd thing. It's straight as an arrow, but when I lean into a turn, the bike responds fluidly and quickly.


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## biker_boy

*Photo from first week of Riding*

My spring break trip to North Carolina was amazing. Loved the riding, love the bike.


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## Olancha

Looking good! Much nicer than your dorm room.:biggrin5:


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## Jaxattax

*A funny thing happened on the way to the review...*



Jaxattax said:


> My main ride is an '04 Victoire. I love that bike. It's fast, but comfortable. And at my age that's important.
> Anyway, I'd been thinking of painting my back up '02 Zurich, but then realized it was going to cost about $450 for the complete job. So, instead I bought a used '04 Maillot Jaune frame on Ebay. The plan was to recycle the Zurich's parts. But, instead I bought a new Ultergra group, including a Shimano compact crank. Performance was having a sale on wheels; I couldn't resist. There's more, but to make this brief, the only parts I'm using from the Zurich are the pedals, stem, handlebars, seatpost, and saddle. When it's built up, pictures will be posted here.
> Point is that in a few weeks I should be able to give you a highly biased opinion on the ride qualities of both frames.


How's this for a dog-ate-my-homework story? I finally got the Maillot Jaune built up and took it out for a couple of weekend rides. I tried to post some pics of the bikes, but the files are too large. Before I could figure out how to reduce the files to a size RBR would accept, I crashed the Victoire. The bike's OK for the most part. Unfortunately, I busted my right hip. So, the reviews and pics will have to wait. About four months. Bummer. So it goes.


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## harvestlaser

looks like you will have some time to post pics?


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## Jaxattax

harvestlaser said:


> looks like you will have some time to post pics?


You're right. I've got nothing but time. 
But now I've got to get the Victoire bandaged up by the medics at the LBS. The right hand shifter, handle bar tape, and rear derailleur took the brunt of the fall. Luckily, the frame and fork came through without a scratch. Unfortunately, I won't be able to drive for another month or so. It may be a while before I can post any pictures. 
So it goes.


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## Jaxattax

harvestlaser said:


> looks like you will have some time to post pics?


OK. I think we're ready to rock and roll.
Back in the day there was a commercial on TV featuring a guy that liked his electric razor so much he bought the company. I can't afford to buy a bike company. But I liked my 2004 Victoire so much that when I saw a 2004 Maillot Jaune frame on Ebay, I bought it.
The main difference between the steel/carbon vs. ti/carbon is handling. I think it has something to do with the longer head tube of the steel/carbon frames. 
The Victoire is quicker to respond. It has a more aggresive and livelier feel. But it's not twitchy. I've done several centuries on it, and have never felt trashed afterwards. It gives a very comfortable ride.
The Maillot Jaune is steadier. It tracks very well, a tad more plush, if you will. I simply can't think of another term for the ride. But it's no slug. Despite weighing a couple of more pounds, the bike climbs like a cat. It's pretty stiff. It's also very comfortable.
Granted, the bikes are set up with different wheels, tires, stems, handlebars, cranks, etc., so this is obviously not an apples-to-apples comparison.
Here are a few pictures....


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## davidka

The taller head tube is a 2005 change. The Ti/carbon bikes have it in 05' and 06' too.

edit: The 04 steel/carbon spine bikes had the 15mm head tube extension, the Ti/spine didn't get the extension until 05'.


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## cerveloguy

Excellent. That's the comparison I'm looking for. Exactly what I expected.

I've actually given some thought to cutting 1.5 cm off the steel/carbon headtube on my bike to duplicate the ti/carbon geometry. Then it would be a really interesting comparison.


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## Olancha

Nice Lemonds.


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## paddlerx

*bump*

edited the above photo..bump.


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## whateveronfire

I've just about got mine where I want it and snapped a pic yesterday.

2004 Zurich

Switched to Mavic Open Pro Front, CXP 33 Rear Wheels

King Headset

Thompson Elite seatpost

Brooks B17 Special Edition 

I may still swap the handlebars, which don't have my favorite drop position and I think I may go with silver tape at some point. Still, a joy to ride.


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## Meatball

Does anyone know if it is possible to polish the chainstays on a carbon/steel bike? I have some paint chipping off on my chainstay and might do something different than just use touch up paint.

I am thinking of something seen on a Colnago Master X Light.


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## biker_boy

You could sand them (not down to the carbon, mind you) and coat it with silver paint and then clearcoat it. 

Sanding down to the carbon is tricky business and is liable to ruin the seatstays. Most paint strippers (not thinners) will damage the resin, so avoid those, too.


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## Meatball

biker_boy said:


> You could sand them (not down to the carbon, mind you) and coat it with silver paint and then clearcoat it.
> 
> Sanding down to the carbon is tricky business and is liable to ruin the seatstays. Most paint strippers (not thinners) will damage the resin, so avoid those, too.



I was thinking the steel chainstays only. So, no painting needed. How would polishing the steel be done?


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## alexedge

paddlerx said:


>


I WANT this frame!!!

Looking at a 53cm Versailles carbon/steel frame for my next build, although I would prefer the ti/carbon if it was in the price range. I have ridden Lemond steel a lot (Croix de Fer, Sarthe) and I love them, but I've heard the spine frames have equal or better ride/handling and are somewhat lighter, which is what motivated me to get one.

Really looking forward to getting it done. Bike will be BUDGET, less than $1500 total....


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## ex2k4

That black one is BEAUTIFUL. Simply perfect.


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## commutenow

I am thinking about getting a 2006 new Croix De Fer because I like steel. If you have one do you like it?


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## jamesdak

Back from the dead, I just had to resurrect this one. I recently added a 2006 Versailles steel/carbon Lemond to my collection of Lemond bikes. Bringing me to 7 Lemonds total. Surprisingly this one was the second heaviest of all my Lemonds despite being the one with the half carbon frame. As I picked it up it was 21 lbs 14 ozs. After a day or tow I swapped out the very heavy Armadillo tires for some Vittoria Open Corsa CX tires. Then I got rid of the heavy Shimano double sided pedals and threw on an extra set of my Look Keo Pedals. Finally I swapped out the stem for a slightly longer one to get the reach spot on for me. Those simple steps to get it ready to ride brought the weight down to a more respectable 20 lbs 2 ozs. I plan to swap out those heavy Bontrager wheels, the saddle and then swap in Dura Ace 7800 parts for all the Shimano 105 stuff on their. I've already got a 10 speed Dura Ace Cassette on it. My goal is to get into at least the low 18 lb range in a ready to ride configuration. It just sucks that winter is in full force here right now and I can't test ride it. I won't take out the good bikes until after the spring rains clear off the road chemicals. Anyway, here's one picture as I picked it up.


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