# Coasting resistance in rear hub



## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

I've been doing some winter cranking on my bike. I have a pair of Ksyrium Elite wheels. I notice that when I spin the rear wheel forwards when the bike is on the stand, the pedals rotate too. It seems like the rear hub has some resistance when it is coasting. Perhaps the grease inside it is thick and/or dirty. Is this something that is easy to fix? If I take the hub apart, is it hard to put it back together with the correct amount of preload? 

Thank you.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

TiCoyote said:


> I've been doing some winter cranking on my bike. I have a pair of Ksyrium Elite wheels. I notice that when I spin the rear wheel forwards when the bike is on the stand, the pedals rotate too. It seems like the rear hub has some resistance when it is coasting. Perhaps the grease inside it is thick and/or dirty. Is this something that is easy to fix? If I take the hub apart, is it hard to put it back together with the correct amount of preload?
> 
> Thank you.


The Mavic hub is an easy hub to service. Google "Ksyrium Elite rear hub service " and you will see several hits, including YouTube clips, on how to do it.

Use 10w mineral oil. Mavic markets their own. I use Shimano. 

From what you are describing it appears the freehub seal and/or the freehub body are contaminated. It may or may not need replacement and if not, a thorough cleaning may do the trick. Do this to determine if the freehub body needs replacement:
Take the wheel off the bike, lay it flat on the ground with the cassette facing up, grab the cassette with both hands across its diameter and try to wiggle it. If it wiggles (up and down) excessively, the freehub body needs replacing so buy a replacement kit before you take the hub apart. If you replace the freehub body, its a good idea to also replace the rubber seal, the pawls and the little springs that engage the pawls.

If the cassette does not wiggle up or down excessively then a thorough cleaning is all you need. Take the hub apart, carefully and slowly pull the freehub body so not to loose the pawls and their springs, carefully remove the rubber seal so it does not tear and clean everything with rubbing alcohol. Inspect the rubber seal and if it's not torn, clean it up, coat it with mineral oil and put it back at the same orientation you found it. Install the pawls, put a couple drops of mineral oil on each, put 15 drops of oil inside the freehub body, slide it back in place (don't forget the washer) and you are good to go for another six months.

As far as the preload goes, with the wheel off the bike, tighten the preload with the tool Mavic gave you with the wheel, and then loosen it about quarter turn. Put the wheel on the bike, tighten the skewer and check to see (with the Mavic tool) if the preload disk needs any more tightening. Do not overdo it, just enough to keep it snug but not too much.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Thank you for the detailed and informative response! 

Can I use 3-in-1 oil? I've heard mixed reports over whether or not it is mineral oil. 

Can I just buy "mineral oil" at the Home Depot or or CVS or whatever? 

Is that the same as J&J Baby Oil?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

TiCoyote said:


> Thank you for the detailed and informative response!
> 
> Can I use 3-in-1 oil? I've heard mixed reports over whether or not it is mineral oil.
> 
> ...


No.
What you want is SHIMANO MINERAL OIL
Not just some whatever mineral oil.
It's used for hydraulic braking systems.
If you call up Mavic or contact them, they'll tell you this is what you should use.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

This? 
Genuine Shimano Mineral Oil Bleed Bicycles 50ml Bleed Kit Oil | eBay


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

I use Mobil 1 synthetic.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

TiCoyote said:


> This?
> Genuine Shimano Mineral Oil Bleed Bicycles 50ml Bleed Kit Oil | eBay


looks to be a repackaged version of the good stuff, yes.





here's a video for you.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

goodboyr said:


> I use Mobil 1 synthetic.


After using Shimano mineral oil for years and years I started using Mobil 1 a few years ago and it works great. Either will work great. Or for that matter, basically any light oil will work...better than nothing. I'd swear I heard from a Mavic neutral support guy or rep years ago at a race that you don't want to use anything w/ teflon in it (tri-flo) as it will cause the bushing to swell and have drag. Can't remember for sure, and I know guys that use it and don't seem to have any issues.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I have used Pedro's road rage when it was available and now Shimano mineral oil.

Some have used Baby Oil and some others Mobil 1. I have not used either of these however if I had to use Mobil 1 I would be careful which viscosity I used.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

What about butter? Or ICan'tBelieveIt'sNotButter?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Extra virgin olive oil, only from the Grossetto region of Tuscany. Only from battles w/ corks, no screw tops. 

I don't really think it matters what viscosity of Mobil 1 you use, they're just not that different. Unless it was the heaviest, but even then...I doubt it would matter.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Extra virgin olive oil, only from the Grossetto region of Tuscany. Only from battles w/ corks, no screw tops.
> 
> I don't really think it matters what viscosity of Mobil 1 you use, they're just not that different. Unless it was the heaviest, but even then...I doubt it would matter.


Vegetable oils - the basis for the original varnishes. They can, however, make for decent short term lubes so long as not heated. With some heat they get pretty gummy fairly quickly.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I've always used tri-flow, but those wheels have been retired.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

I knew a guy from Vietnam who used WD40 on his chain. I told him that he should use a real chain lube instead. He told me, "You don't want to know what we used back in Vietnam on our bikes..." I raised an eyebrow at him. "Lard."


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dcgriz said:


> Use 10w mineral oil. Mavic markets their own. I use Shimano.


Absolutely no need for special oil. The "mineral oil" is simply a translation from the French meaning "oil from the ground" as opposed to vegetable oil. In other words, petroleum oil is what you want and any brand will be fine. Heavier oils will make for a quieter ratchet sound though going up to gear oil (90W) might mean pawl engagement issues in cold weather. "Mineral oil" in the US brings to mind a medicinal oil for a lot of people, and that is NOT what you use on bicycles.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Kerry Irons said:


> dcgriz said:
> 
> 
> > "Mineral oil" in the US brings to mind a medicinal oil for a lot of people, and that is NOT what you use on bicycles.
> ...


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Kerry Irons said:


> dcgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Use 10w mineral oil. Mavic markets their own. I use Shimano.QUOTE]
> ...


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

dcgriz said:


> Kerry Irons said:
> 
> 
> > You may be correct; I don't know as I am not an "oil" expert for oils other than extra virgin olive oil but only in my salad and with the proper grade of balsamic vinegar.
> ...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

TiCoyote said:


> dcgriz said:
> 
> 
> > I decided to order a little bottle of the Shimano mineral oil. I figure, for $7 it's probably worth it. The biggest downside is that I won't be able to do the service until it arrives next week. I could probably get a quart of Mobil 1 today for $10, but what am I going to do with that?
> ...


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

velodog said:


> TiCoyote said:
> 
> 
> > Or mix some of it with mineral spirits and lube your chain with that, and still maintain your wheels for the rest of your life.
> ...


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

The sad part of this whole discussion is the need for this......Mavics are the only hubs I know of that need 6 month MTCE intervals.........compare that with a Campy or Shimano hub. The plastic shim, the tiny pawls and springs, crappy design. Just google Magic Scream of Death.......


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dcgriz said:


> Kerry Irons said:
> 
> 
> > You may be correct; I don't know as I am not an "oil" expert for oils other than extra virgin olive oil but only in my salad and with the proper grade of balsamic vinegar.
> ...


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> dcgriz said:
> 
> 
> > He's right. It's a translation thing. It definitely doesn't have to be anything in particular, like Shimano mineral oil or you'll die...you can pretty much put any oil you want in there and it will work just fine.
> ...


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

goodboyr said:


> The sad part of this whole discussion is the need for this......Mavics are the only hubs I know of that need 6 month MTCE intervals.........compare that with a Campy or Shimano hub. The plastic shim, the tiny pawls and springs, crappy design. Just google Magic Scream of Death.......


In my experience the beginning of the end on these hubs is the rubber seal. If that seal is compromised, grid enters and wears down the freehub body bushing to a point of no return. Thankfully, taking this hub apart, cleaning it, inspect the seal, oil the darn thing and put it back together doesn't take more than a few minutes after you've done it a couple of times. 
You do that regularly and the hub will last a long time.


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## mikiek (Aug 18, 2014)

goodboyr said:


> The sad part of this whole discussion is the need for this......Mavics are the only hubs I know of that need 6 month MTCE intervals.........compare that with a Campy or Shimano hub. The plastic shim, the tiny pawls and springs, crappy design. Just google Magic Scream of Death.......


Wow, perfect timing for this thread and some great information! I am dissecting some Aksium hubs for a friend and just came in to post a question. It's pretty much related to this topic.

I've torn into the freehub, there are some worn pieces so I am going to recommend replacement. I did come across something I wanted to ask about. When I look inside the FH body I can see the bearing at the other (outside) end. Looking at the FH from the outside end there is a round flat surface with a 15mm nut-like thing that screws into the FH. Inquiring minds decided to take that off. When I did, I see the bearing, but there was this evil looking silver grease-like substance all over the place. I can't tell what it is. I did not see the stuff on the inside of the FH body.

So is this silver stuff different than the 15 drops of oil you guys are talking about or something additional? The inside of the FH body was pretty much dry. No grease, oil, or anything.

Thanks for this thread. As usual, I have learned a lot!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

You took apart the nut that holds the FH bearing and exposed the bearing. Might as well clean it, put new grease around it and put it back together. 
This is not the lubing we have been talking about on this thread. The mineral oil is dripped (15 drops for reference) inside the FH body to coat it's innards. Rub some on the yellowish bushing, on the pawls and springs and make sure the rubber seal is intact and well oiled.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Lol. That bushing starts out white. "Yellowish" means its starting to go. Check for cracking and the beginning of deterioration while you can see it. (I hate this design!)


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

goodboyr said:


> Lol. That bushing starts out white. "Yellowish" means its starting to go. Check for cracking and the beginning of deterioration while you can see it. (I hate this design!)


No sir. The color of the bushing itself is not an indication of wear in need of replacement. A reliable way to evaluate wear is to remove the wheel from the bike, lay it flat on the ground, grab the cassette with both hands from opposite ends and try to wiggle it up and down. If you detect significant play, the bushing is worn down because of grime/grid accumulation on the contact surfaces from penetration around the compromised rubber seal. 
Do this before the periodic hub maintenance and follow it with a thorough cleaning, visual inspection, lubing, etc.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Well....I guess we need to agree to disagree. Its not an indicator it has to be replaced immediately, but it is an indicator that heat is starting to build up because of dirt, lack of lubrication, etc. If you can wiggle the cassette, then not only is the bushing gone, but its quite possible that the mating surface on the shaft is worn too. That means a new bushing will not solve the wiggle. You will probably need to order an oversize one and sand the surface of the shaft to remove the damage. An alternative is the Hub Doctor which replaces the bushing with a nice bearing. In any case, all I am advocating is to carefully examine the bushing for wear and cracking as well as the shaft mating surface. The cassette wobble test is too late in the deterioration. The best defense against all of this is frequent cleaning, lubrication and making sure the rubber seal is ok


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I agree that play in the cassette could lead to other things as well. The point, however, I have attempted to make is that the yellowish discoloration alone is not a viable indicator of replacing the freehub if everything else about it checks out. Mine has been yellowish for a good 2k miles by now, maybe more, without any performance issues with the hub.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Well, I started this thread, and ironically, after I dug in a little, I remembered servicing my Aksiums a few years ago. In fact, I had watched many of the same videos. It looks like the Ksyrium and Aksium have basically the same build, and many of the same parts. I'm pretty sure I replaced the freehub on those because the cassette was wobbling. I'm not sure what kind of oil I used. 

In reading many articles, Shimano seems to be the way to go. However, using something else won't necessarily lead to failure or even long-term harm. You don't want something too viscous, because that could interfere with pawl engagement. "Mineral Oil" from the drugstore, like J&J baby oil isn't the right stuff. According to this page, it's too viscous (20-50W as opposed to 10W) Peter Verdone

The color of the bearing does not indicate wear. If you look at a new one, it's not paper-white, it's more, shall we say, French Vanilla? 
Mavic Freehub Body - Wheel Small Parts | Competitive Cyclist

Yes, replacing the freehub and pawls every six months, can be an expensive proposition. Cleaning and lubing it every six months might be an annoyance, but it's probably part of routine maintenance. I like to re-cable the bike and put on new housings every year. I'm sure some of you will think that's a total waste of time an money (only replace a cable when it snaps!) and others will wonder how I get them to last that long. But I could see myself servicing the hub twice per year. 

I could have gotten a liter of Shimano oil for under $20, or even a quart of Mobil 1 for $5 (or $40 for the super premium synthetic stuff), but I like how the small bottle has a dropper on the end. A quart of motor oil isn't really convenient. Maybe I'll refill the dropper bottle with Mobil 1 in the future. 

Anyway, thanks for all the great advice, and I'm glad this thread has helped some others as well!


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## mikiek (Aug 18, 2014)

dcgriz said:


> You took apart the nut that holds the FH bearing and exposed the bearing. Might as well clean it, put new grease around it and put it back together.
> This is not the lubing we have been talking about on this thread. The mineral oil is dripped (15 drops for reference) inside the FH body to coat it's innards. Rub some on the yellowish bushing, on the pawls and springs and make sure the rubber seal is intact and well oiled.


Got it. And thanks for that. Any idea what the silver colored substance that was inside there would have been? It was sort of greasy, but a little thinner consistency. It looked a little like my anti-seize goop but I would hope that's not what it was.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mikiek said:


> Got it. And thanks for that. Any idea what the silver colored substance that was inside there would have been? It was sort of greasy, but a little thinner consistency. It looked a little like my anti-seize goop but I would hope that's not what it was.


If no one has ever had the hub apart it's oil and metal. If the hub has been 'serviced'...all bets are off and who knows?


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

As CX said, hard to tell. I know Mavic also sells the bearing separately but I would imagine most people buy the freehub kit because I think the bushing would need replacement before the bearing does.
At this point you got nothing to loose, put a bit of grease around it to protect it from surface corrosion and see what it does.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?...AVIC-FREEHUB-REPLACEMENT-BEARINGS/63465760438


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

If I want to replace the bushing, or replace the bushing with a bearing, what tools do I need? Does anyone have a copy of the Hubdoctor instructions?


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

I took the Ksyrium hub apart, cleaned and lubed it. Put it back together. It would have been a 5-10 min job, except I dropped a pawl spring and spent 10 min looking for that. 

While I was at it, I also took apart my Aksium hub and cleaned and lubed that. I'm not sure what I used in it last time, but it was disgusting inside. Grey, slimy, gritty, and smelly. 

The ghost pedaling is probably 95% resolved. There's still a bit of it. Also, now the wheel spins foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Thanks for all the help!

Should I put oil, grease, or nothing on the outside of the axle (the hollow axle, not the QR that goes through it)? I think I did grease last time, but I did oil this time.


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## mikiek (Aug 18, 2014)

TiCoyote said:


> I took the Ksyrium hub apart, cleaned and lubed it. Put it back together. It would have been a 5-10 min job, except I dropped a pawl spring and spent 10 min looking for that. .


I can relate - the Aksium I'm working on belongs to a friend. Lost the spring 3 times. Would have hated to have to buy a new FH for a 5 cent part



TiCoyote said:


> While I was at it, I also took apart my Aksium hub and cleaned and lubed that. I'm not sure what I used in it last time, but it was disgusting inside. Grey, slimy, gritty, and smelly.


I noticed something similar under the seal on the outside of the FH bearing. No idea what it was. 

When you put the Aksium FH back on, did it slide on easily? On mine, I had to push pretty hard. The FH is not spinning well afterwards. I am trying to figure out what would be causing the drag. It looks like there is 3 points of contact - the FH bearing with the axle - the rubber seal/gasket that the FH butts up against - whatever the white/yellow/French vanilla bushing is in contact with on the inside. 

Could that bushing have swelled up a bit if the FH interior was not lubed?


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

mikiek said:


> When you put the Aksium FH back on, did it slide on easily? On mine, I had to push pretty hard. The FH is not spinning well afterwards. I am trying to figure out what would be causing the drag. It looks like there is 3 points of contact - the FH bearing with the axle - the rubber seal/gasket that the FH butts up against - whatever the white/yellow/French vanilla bushing is in contact with on the inside.
> 
> Could that bushing have swelled up a bit if the FH interior was not lubed?



If the freehub doesn't turn, here are a few possibilities: 
1. You forgot to but the spacer washer back in. It should be inside the freehub. 
2. You but the end nut on backwards. There is a long collar and a short collar. Flip it around. 
3. The pawls are jammed. 

Also, you can buy new pawls online. They cost around $5-20.


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## mikiek (Aug 18, 2014)

TiCoyote said:


> If the freehub doesn't turn, here are a few possibilities:
> 1. You forgot to but the spacer washer back in. It should be inside the freehub.
> 2. You but the end nut on backwards. There is a long collar and a short collar. Flip it around.
> 3. The pawls are jammed.
> ...


Well it does turn just not as freely as I would expect. Did your FH slide back on easily?


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

If you hold the two pawls closed against the FH axle with one hand and slide the FH body over them with the other, the FH body should slide effortless over them specially since you lubed it. 
If it took a lot of effort to put it in place and now it doesn't spin freely, something is misaligned. I would take it apart and try again. Make sure the little washer is on top of the FH axle bearing before you slide the FH body in place.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

The freehub should slide on easily. Make sure that one end of the spring is in the little hole and the other end is on the little bump on the surface of the pawl. If the spring is out of place, the pawl won't lay all the way down.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Well, it's been a few months, and I'm not super-happy. The hub is in pretty good shape, but not perfect. It spins, but it doesn't spin forever. Also, there is still a bit of ghost pedaling. Maybe I'm falling out of love with my wheels.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

TiCoyote said:


> Well, it's been a few months, and I'm not super-happy. The hub is in pretty good shape, but not perfect. It spins, *but it doesn't spin forever.* Also, there is still a bit of ghost pedaling. Maybe I'm falling out of love with my wheels.


It's a rear wheel, what do you expect? What would you get if it did actually 'spin forever'? Magical Strava KOM's? You've just discovered one reason why a LOT of people that have years in the industry hate Mavic wheels so much. They are definitely not worthy of 'love'.


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