# Is it OK for a wheel to make gentle spoke pinging sounds while being ridden?



## jeff400650 (Mar 29, 2014)

Mine does, and two good mechanics seem to think it is acceptable.


----------



## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

No. How are you sure it's the spokes? Can you identify specific spokes?


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

No, not OK.

I've had wheels built (before I started building them), with too low tension overall, allowing spokes to move and rub where they cross.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jeff400650 said:


> Mine does, and two *good mechanics *seem to think it is acceptable.


What makes you think they're good mechanics?


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

jeff400650 said:


> Mine does, and two good mechanics seem to think it is acceptable.


My experience is this happens for two reasons. The person who built the wheel did not address spoke windup and some spokes are literally unscrewing the tension. The other is spoke tapping or rubbing at the crosses as bikerjulio mentioned. I would find a mechanic with more experience in wheelbuilding


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

My guess is that if your spokes are "pinging", they weren't stress relieved properly when they were built. If this is the case, the pinging you hear is the wheels stress relieving themselves as you ride. If you keep riding them, they will soon go out of true.

To answer your question: No, it is not OK or acceptable.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

IME the "spoke unwinding" pinging will happen on the first couple of revolutions of a newly built wheel, and then it will be over.

The "spoke rubbing" sound will continue until the wheel is fixed.

A simple test is to put a dab of oil at each of the last spoke intersections. If noise stops then you know where the problem lies.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

I've come to the conclusion that I can build my own wheels better than probably 75% of bike mechanics can. If your mechanic is over 30, maybe I'd trust him, but the majority are high-school dropouts or part-time college students, who are very sophomoric in their skills.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

bikerjulio said:


> IME the "spoke unwinding" pinging will happen on the first couple of revolutions of a newly built wheel, and then it will be over.
> 
> The "spoke rubbing" sound will continue until the wheel is fixed.
> 
> A simple test is to put a dab of oil at each of the last spoke intersections. If noise stops then you know where the problem lies.


This. It is either this or one or more spokes are so loose that they completely relax with every revolution of the wheel, which means that the wheel is slowly coming apart. 

And of course there is the very real possibility that this noise has nothing to do with the spokes.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> IME the "spoke unwinding" pinging will happen on the first couple of revolutions of a newly built wheel, and then it will be over.


Not if they were stress relieved properly by the builder. My wheels don't ping. 



No Time Toulouse said:


> I've come to the conclusion that I can build my own wheels better than probably 75% of bike mechanics can.


Possibly. Remember that you aren't building wheels for a living, so you can take your time and pay much closer attention to detail. Many bike mechanics are crunched for time with tight schedules and will do minimum stress relieving or rather they will do just enough to prevent most customers from returning with problems.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Not if they were stress relieved properly by the builder. My wheels don't ping.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly. Remember that you aren't building wheels for a living, so you can take your time and pay much closer attention to detail. Many bike mechanics are crunched for time with tight schedules and will do minimum stress relieving or rather they will do just enough to prevent most customers from returning with problems.


I get what you are saying but an experienced builder should have the skills to avoid spoke windup and be able to quickly stress relive. I have built a few wheels over the years an they have turned out pretty well, but its true part of the reason is I spend literally hours building them and can take the time to be really meticulous


----------



## tinball (Sep 24, 2014)

How old are the wheels? If they are not new, and the sounds started recently, you may want to carefully inspect the rims for any cracking near the spoke holes - particularly very fine hairline cracks. This started happening to my old wheels before I noticed the cracks.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

wouldn't be ok for me...

the sound would drive me nuts.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Remember that you aren't building wheels for a living, so you can take your time and pay much closer attention to detail. Many bike mechanics are crunched for time with tight schedules and will do minimum stress relieving or rather they will do just enough to prevent most customers from returning with problems.


If doing a crappier job than the person paying you could on their own because it's your profession is a good reason to do a hack job I'll have to let my clients and boss know about that.

You defense of shoddy bike shops is always entertaining but this one is a bit over the top.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Is the total weight you're putting on the wheels within spec of what they can accommodate?

I've built wheels, trued wheels, and bought wheels. I can't remember ever hearing pinging spokes.

If I heard spokes pinging, I'd take that as a warning that my wheel was going to taco soon.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Lombard said:


> Possibly. Remember that you aren't building wheels for a living, so you can take your time and pay much closer attention to detail. Many bike mechanics are crunched for time with tight schedules and will do minimum stress relieving or rather they will do just enough to prevent most customers from returning with problems.


My local 'established' shop will build your wheel for $35 above the cost of materials. I can't imagine they are spending much time at that price.


----------



## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Lombard said:


> My guess is that if your spokes are "pinging", they weren't stress relieved properly when they were built. If this is the case, the pinging you hear is the wheels stress relieving themselves as you ride. If you keep riding them, they will soon go out of true.
> 
> To answer your question: No, it is not OK or acceptable.


I interpreted the OP's description of "pinging" as a constant source of noise. It never occurred to me this could be a new wheel with wound up spokes even though I'm well aware of the issue. Good call.

But in that case, the pinging should stop in short order and no longer be an issue, no?


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

> Is it OK for a wheel to make gentle spoke pinging sounds while being ridden?


I very much doubt it but, as I've never experienced the phenomenon, I don't have any first hand experience. That's assuming it is your spokes.

Wheels that don't get properly stress relieved (or whatever it's called) in the workshop do the job themselves within the first acceleration up the street. They don't keep doing it for ever more, no more than continued "stress relief" in the workshop provides any continued benefit or change. The spokes unwind, the instant they're unloaded, and then all is quiet. Whether the spokes are too loose after this to provide an acceptable wheel is a moving target.

IMO. continued spoke pinging is probably the indication of a wheel that lacks sufficient spoke tension and that is a wheel that will have a short life span whether it be from nipples unscrewing or spokes fatiguing due to the wildly fluctuating tensions as the wheel rotates.


----------



## 2nfinite (Oct 17, 2015)

My stock wheels made noises when mashing down on the pedals, on just about any hill or sprinting. My built wheels don't make any noises.


----------



## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

It's not ok for a wheel to make pinging noises, but sometimes there's nothing you can do about it.

I build my own wheels, but I have one stock wheel, Easton EA90 Aero, that pings constantly. It's a fine wheel that performs well otherwise.

It pings because it's a 20 spoke rear wheel set up 2x Ds, radial NDS. Only has 5 pulling spokes that are asked to do way too much work.

Lubing the spokeholes and spoke crossing points may relieve the sound for a ride or two but it always comes back. The lower the gear (higher the torgque) the worse it is.

One pulling spoke snapped in half a couple of years ago, I ordered 5 replacement spokes in expectation of more snapping but have only had to replace that broken spoke.

The rim is in great shape otherwise, no sign of cracks.

Pinging is a bad sign, but there are some wheels where there is nothing you can do. 

Everyone I know who has a 20 spoke rear wheel of any design (Mavic, Easton, Zipp, Shimano) has had a problem after some time. Radial spoking on one side can certainly help make a wheel stiffer but is more likely to make the problem worse.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Peter P. said:


> I interpreted the OP's description of "pinging" as a constant source of noise. It never occurred to me this could be a new wheel with wound up spokes even though I'm well aware of the issue. Good call.
> 
> But in that case, the pinging should stop in short order and no longer be an issue, no?


Eventually, yes. And the wheel will then be out of true. Hope the rider has spoke wrench skills while out away from home.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> If doing a crappier job than the person paying you could on their own because it's your profession is a good reason to do a hack job I'll have to let my clients and boss know about that.
> 
> You defense of shoddy bike shops is always entertaining but this one is a bit over the top.


I am not defending the practice of crappy work, I'm simply stating what is. Many shops have mechanics who are expected to churn out repairs as if they are on a production line, then drop everything they are doing to attend to customers who walk in the store. You know as well as I do that bike shops have been squeezed by competition from internet sales and big box stores, not to mention bike and part manufacturers who put quotas on sales and have reduced prices shops are allowed to charge. They can't afford to have mechanics sitting around when work is slow, nor have people hired specifically to attend to customers. Not to mention that the pay sucks, so there aren't a whole lot of good mechanics who want to work for peanuts. Do you really expect a wheel builder to take his/her time and pay attention to detail when the boss is breathing down his/her neck to finish?

I'm really glad you are easily entertained. Whatever works for you.


----------



## jeff400650 (Mar 29, 2014)

I took the whole bike to the "wheel guy" at a big, respected shop near me. Said tension and everything is fine. Said black spokes can be noisy since the coating is rougher. He oiled all spoke contact points, and it has been quiet for a couple hundred miles, but I can hear it starting to ping a bit again. He says I am fine to go on my 7 day, 500 mile trip.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

jeff400650 said:


> Said black spokes can be noisy since the coating is rougher.


That's a new one for the books. :rolleyes5:


----------



## jeff400650 (Mar 29, 2014)

I thought some body would like that one.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

carlosflanders said:


> ...... Radial spoking on one side can certainly help make a wheel stiffer but is more likely to make the problem worse.


Actually, radial spoking (or, more accurately, SEMI-radial spoking on the rear) won't make the wheel any stiffer, in fact, I believe it will make it just a bit less stiff. What semi-radial spoking does is keeps 'leading' spokes on the non-drive side of a heavily-dished wheel from going completely slack when accelerating. This keeps the spokes from fatiguing and breaking. Since none of the spokes are either 'leading' or 'trailing', they ALL get tensioned.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> That's a new one for the books. :rolleyes5:


It's also widely known that an orange bike will absorb or otherwise neutralize more of the sound from black spokes than any other color.

I ride an orange bike. It's very quiet. Eerily quiet.


----------



## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not sure we can definitively say whether the pinging in your wheels is good or not over the internet. One would need to look at the condition of the actual wheels and hear the actual pinging.

Having said that, I have heard many a low spoke count wheel lightly pinging when ridden, that has nothing to do with whether the wheel was stress relieved, spokes unwound, or spokes correctly tensioned or not.

For example, I have a set of Campy Hyperon's that have ~75k trouble free miles on them where both the front and back quietly ping for the first couple revolutions at the start of every ride - they have done so from almost brand new. The front and the NDS rear are radial laced, all straight pull, so it's not purely a function spokes rubbing one another. These wheels are well beyond the break-in period where bedding or windup might still being dealt with, and the spokes are very evenly and sufficiently tensioned - these wheels have only required minor spoke work once early on in their lives. I've been tucked in behind countless others with low spoke count wheels where the pinging is constant and annoying - whose riders are oblivious to the noise when asked. Carbon rims seem to magnify the sound more so.

Many low spoke count wheels are pushing the limits of spokes, rims and hub flanges often resulting in more flexing, even when sufficiently tensioned. It's not uncommon for such flexing to cause some pinging sounds. Spoke crosses are easy to address with a dab of oil every now and then. But there can be flexing at the interface with the hub or rim, which may not go away with a dab of oil.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

RHankey said:


> I'm not sure we can definitively say whether the pinging in your wheels is good or not over the internet. One would need to look at the condition of the actual wheels and hear the actual pinging.
> 
> Having said that, I have heard many a low spoke count wheel lightly pinging when ridden, that has nothing to do with whether the wheel was stress relieved, spokes unwound, or spokes correctly tensioned or not.
> 
> ...


Me thinks you have very acute hearing. Have you ever considered a career with the CIA?  I have had low spoke count alloy wheels and can only recall hearing a few pings when brand new. And believe me, some of these wheels were flexy for sure.

I have no first hand experience with carbon wheels, so I can't say there.


----------



## jeff400650 (Mar 29, 2014)

It is still a bit of a concern for me. They are these wheels
Performance Wheelhouse -- Stan's Arch EX 29 Mountain Bike Wheelset

On this bike
https://www.diamondback.com/haanjo-exp-carbon

With 35mm Compass tires at 45ish psi

So... 32 spoke, not low count. 2000 miles on them. The noise gets louder if I add weight (20 lbs of luggage). I weigh 205 lbs.

Currently, with just me on the bike I can just barely hear it at low speeds, climbing. 

What is "stress relief" for spokes? They are supposed to be stressed to a proper tension, right?


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Deleted.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

jeff400650 said:


> What is "stress relief" for spokes? They are supposed to be stressed to a proper tension, right?


Stress Relief (or optimizing) as said by our very own Mike T.:

Wheels 

Spokes, when they are first tensioned, tend to straighten out and bed into the soft alloy of the hub flanges. We want to take all that stuff out of them while we are doing the actual building. *If we don’t, they will continue to stretch, straighten and bed on our first few rides and they will slacken off and allow the wheel to go out of true. * I've seen wheels loosen off so bad (not mine of course!) during their first ride that they were unridable.
Also when we build, we "wind up" the spokes (impart a twist into them) due to turning the nipples and the thread friction. Thread lubrication lessesns this. This wind-up must be eliminated and it was coverd above. Stress relief, below, especially Step 5, will eliminate any windup left over.
There are six techniques that achieve the above three steps of pre-stretching, removing wind-up, relieving stresses and bedding. Each separate method achieves more than one effect so I will lump them all together under the name - *Optimising.*
*Optimising your spokes - *
*Method 1*. Perform this once only, just after you have got a fair amount of tension in the wheels. Where the "heads in" spokes exit the hubs – take the plastic tipped hammer and tap the spoke bend a little flatter. This does not take much effort. *You can also use your thumb to flatten this curve when lacing these "heads in" spokes. They will reach the rim easier and better.* You're actually bending the spoke where it exits the hub. *You need to do this so that the spoke contains no residual tension due to this curve. Verrrry important!*
*Here is a pic of two spokes - *one, a head-out spoke that doesn't need the neck angle setting and the other, *a head-in spoke that needs the neck angle setting*. You can see the difference in the bends after they have been laced into a wheel, the angle set and wheel tensioned.

<center> 
 







<tbody>
</tbody> </center>​ *Method 2*. Perform this after every "round" of truing or tensioning. Grasp parallel pairs of spokes on each side – one pair in each hand - while wearing leather gloves and squeeze them in the hands as hard as you can. Go all around the wheel once.
*Method 3*. Perform once. Take the screwdriver handle and slightly twist the final spoke crosses around each other. Be gentle here. Place the screwdriver handle in the final cross and above it, press down slightly and twist the two spokes around each other. This is not really a "twist" but just a slight, very slight bending. The spokes will do this themselves if you don't do it but then they might lose a minute bit of tension too.
*Method 4. *Do this after each "round" of added tension - press downinto the final spokecrossing, from the rim side of the cross, towards the hub. I use an old screwdriver handle for this (it's my nipple driver above).Use a screwdriver handle, an old LH crank or a wooden dowel (like a 6" piece of old broom handle). 
*Method 5*. Do this once after you have a fair amount of tension on the spokes. Take a thin punch and a hammer. Tap the head of each spoke to seat the head squarely in the hub flange. I said "tap"................not "pound the **** out of". We're just seating the head in the flange and aligning the head.
*Method 6.* Place wheel flat on floor with the rim part nearest to you touching the floor. A piece of cardboard or carpet will prevent the QR from scratches. With hands at 9 & 3 o'clock, press down gently but firmly and quickly. Rotate wheel 1/8th turn & repeat for one full turn of the wheel. Turn wheel over and repeat. The pings you hear are spokes unwinding. But if you have identified and removed all twist, as outlined above in the section "Spoke Twist......" there shouldn't be any left. Check for true afterwards. *Repeat this after each stage or "round"*. You can't repeat this one too often.
* 
 The above methods will take your wheels to the next step above average wheels built by average in-a-hurry wheel builders. They will produce wheels that will not ping as you first ride them (spokes untwisting and relieving themselves) and that will NOT need re-truing after the first few rides, which is the sure sign of a poor wheelbuild.*​ *People on forums debate and argue every day about some or all of the methods above. It gets really boring. I don't care which one is the "best" or what scientific function it provides. I just do them all. If I could find an angel to kiss them I'd do that too.*​ *Wheelbuilder Eric (Ergott) from RBR.com came up with this beaut of a quote - "I don't care about the physics of it. What I do makes the wheels stay true for a long time."*​ *Method 2 above is the only step that most wheelbuilders perform. Even pro builders. I have the time to use  all of the above methods which amount to maybe another five minutes in a whole wheelbuild. They give me great peace of mind that I've done everything in my knowledge and power to optimize the wheel integrity.

*​


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Holy cow Lomb, you could have just given 'em the link!!


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> Holy cow Lomb, you could have just given 'em the link!!


I did, but also copied and pasted the part on optimizing, since it's a small part of the whole page.


----------

