# Manolo Saiz Arrested!



## Two_Wheels_Teifke (Jan 13, 2005)

Whoa! According to Velonews, Monolo has been arrested on doping charges. Anyone care to guess where Vino will go before the Tour?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

And Roberto said we was innocent 
Ya right!


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

Somebody squealed and turned evidence. I don't know what is required in Spain to arrest someone but surely it was based on good evidence.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Could reflect a change in strategy by Heras' defense team, the unknowing victim.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

I hope Vino and Jorg Jaschke aren't tarnished by this.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

If I'm Vino I'm worrying right now. First Heras, and now his boss. If the Spanish authorities take action against the team, it could be no Tour for Vino.


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

From velonews:

"At the moment we are unable to confirm anything," a spokesman for the Liberty Seguros team said. "We have not yet been unable to contact the sporting director."

Aside from the humorous double negative, this is not good news. Charges against a DS with such longevity have the potential to tarnish the reputations of cyclists long retired. 

I'm with Einstruzende. This casts a cloud over some riders I enjoy watching.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

fastfullback said:


> This casts a cloud over some riders I enjoy watching.


I guess ignorance is indeed bliss, but really doesn't every professional cyclist ride with a cloud over them? The best hope is that over the last few years there might be a few riders actually achieving big things without doping, but before that forget about it. At least now they actually have to work at it to avoid turning up positive, or as in this case getting arrested by law enforcement.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

I guess the big question is that now that Spain is no longer safe from police doping investigations, where do all the foreign pros that have taken refuge there move to?


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Saiz was implicated in organised doping during the Festina scandal, when he was DS at ONCE - interesting to remember he was Bruyneel's DS there...

Dr Fuentes - ex-team doctor of ONCE and Kelme - has also been arrested. And guess which Danish/US team he's been helping to prepare for the Giro? That's right, Riis' CSC squad.

Oh what tangled webs we weave....


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

Bianchigirl said:


> Dr Fuentes - ex-team doctor of ONCE and Kelme - has also been arrested. And guess which Danish/US team he's been helping to prepare for the Giro? That's right, Riis' CSC squad.


Fuentes also helped Phonak. He got the boot when the team had to clean up to get into the ProTour.

Looks like the investigators tapped phones. There are riders and ex-riders involved. It also looks like autologus blood doping is Liberty Seguros' method of choice these days.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

They also implicate someone in the testing lab, who was 'cleaning' blood samples. This runs deep!

This explains why Heras never performed in France for LS, yet would win in Spain. Ya gotta have the whole testing chain bought out!


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

I wondered how Jalabert was posting his good marathon times....


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

A cheating lab worker is potentially so much more damaging than a cheating DS, isn't it? Sure, it would be fun to see Dickie P finally concede that his system is not infallible, but...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*agreed*

cause a cheating lab worker can cheat in both directions. cover up for one team, implicate for another. If he's / she's on the take what's to stop them from tampering with a rival squads results? this is gonna get way weird.


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## Guest (May 23, 2006)

Hmm, someone just pulled his finger out of the hole in the damn - me thinks. BAD day for the sport, and I fear it will get far worse b/4 it's over. Btw, maybe this thread should be moved to the doping forum?


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

AJL said:


> Btw, maybe this thread should be moved to the doping forum?


On a day where one of the biggest DSes is hauled off to jail, discussing cycling without doping is like discussing Formula 1 without aerodynamics.

With Saiz being the micro-manager that he is, I cannot imagine him not taking charge of all his riders' preparation. Vino has got to be sweating that Saiz might have mentioned him in intercepted phone conversations and it will come out before the Tour. Would the Tour allow him to start if he is implicated? Probably not, especially after the black eye they got last year when Armstrong was found to be juicing.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

From CNN: "The police are also looking at alleged links between Fuentes -- who is now practising as a gynaecologist -- and Tour of Italy leader Ivan Basso, who rides for the CSC team."

Uh, oh...


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> From CNN: "The police are also looking at alleged links between Fuentes -- who is now practising as a gynaecologist -- and Tour of Italy leader Ivan Basso, who rides for the CSC team."
> 
> Uh, oh...


Basso's in the stirrups?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> cause a cheating lab worker can cheat in both directions. cover up for one team, implicate for another. If he's / she's on the take what's to stop them from tampering with a rival squads results? this is gonna get way weird.


This would necessarily also involve someone in the UCI since the labs don't know who's sample is who's. The more likely scenario is the lab worker simply "cleansing" all samples, which would give one free reign to dope if you knew it was going on. Of course, I'm not sure what "cleansing" means?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Spunout said:


> This explains why Heras never performed in France for LS, yet would win in Spain. Ya gotta have the whole testing chain bought out!


So what do you think was going on at Postal to allow him to perform there?


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Time to start talking about Tyler Hamilton. Maybe this "inside" person is the one that tried to "bribe" Phonak (which everyone dismissed as fantasy).

Where is my tinfoil hat...?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> Time to start talking about Tyler Hamilton. Maybe this "inside" person is the one that tried to "bribe" Phonak (which everyone dismissed as fantasy).
> 
> Where is my tinfoil hat...?



You know what guys, I don't care about all the politics and the nonsense of positive negatives and so on. I just want to watch some good bicycle racing. If arrest of Saiz means Vino and Co are out of the Tour, then there's something terribly wrong with the system. I want to watch Vino attack Basso and Ulle like crazy, and I don't care who their OBGYN doctor is!  

Anyone knows what I am talking about?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

55x11 said:


> Anyone knows what I am talking about?


Yes, you liked things the way they were in the mid-90s, I'm sure most of the riders, managers, and fans feel the same.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*TDF training camp called off for Vino*

Vino has gotten the royal screwing of his life here, because they aren't going to get to do their recon now.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

dagger said:


> Vino has gotten the royal screwing of his life here, because they aren't going to get to do their recon now.


You think that's going to affect him nearly as much as having his team's doping program disrupted?


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> You think that's going to affect him nearly as much as having his team's doping program disrupted?


Very well said.


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## Guest (May 24, 2006)

Wow! I can hardly believe this 



cyclingnews said:


> As reported by Efe, in an apartment belonging to Fuentes, approximately a thousand doses of anabolic steroids and hormones were seized, along with one hundred packets of blood, products to manipulate it, machines to freeze it and material to perform transfusions.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Yes, you liked things the way they were in the mid-90s, I'm sure most of the riders, managers, and fans feel the same.


Well, yes and no. I am not trying to be the ostritch with his head in the sand.
But the disruption of drug raids is now an additional side of competition: someone like Vino or Kashechkin or Cantador who switched teams this season may see their best chances at the Tour disappear along with all the turmoil of Saiz. 

I am not defending Saiz, just saying that it's as if we all - fans, DS, riders, have decided to feed each other some sh&t and are now surprised it doesn't taste all that nice. 

I don't know what/who to trust, but ultimately I probably don't care. I want to see bike racing at its best, and I don't particularly care what those guys are on. I used to think I did, but now I decided I don't. Spending 6 hours in the saddle day after day, crazy hair pin descents, broken collarbones and worse - those things can't be good for anyone. Maybe doping is not good for their bodies either. Whatever... I am just tired of hearing accusations - at some point everyone is bound to be accused of something, some connection with someone who knows someone who used to have this doctor or this DS. It takes all the fun out of the sport.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I'm just wondering*

where all the trolls who linked Heras' bust with Postal instead of Saiz are about now.
Heras, Nozal and now this. Buh Bye


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> where all the trolls who linked Heras' bust with Postal instead of Saiz are about now.
> Heras, Nozal and now this. Buh Bye


Weren't you comparing Postal with Saiz last week?

If I remember correctly, they are some of the teams using the best modern methods of training, not the old euro crapshoot, according to ATP.

It seems that their methods are decidedly modern.

Silas


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*No I used SAIZ*

as a guy who because of his lack of actual experience would be more apt to adapt modern methods. So in a way yes, the problem being doping isn't modern. Doping is a Euro method that predates all of this. As for the new chosen method 'packing' it is 26 years old and counting. Speaking of, I just helped Eddie B back his car out of the Velodrome on Saturday. Still coaching, still doing fine.
So whilst you are correct, doping ain't modern.

But this raises an interesting point about the likes of other DS's, Docs, trainers etc... (ie Ferrari) which ones are actually involved in the doping, which are not (or turning a blind eye to it) and are just using riders (doped) numbers to optimize their training programmes. Doped riders would have better recovery, higher thresholds and a good coach good work with that.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

> For Sale: Townhouse in Girona....


I'll say that they go to Switzerland next. That seems to be the last refuge...and funny enough VERY close to UCI headquarters.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

Spunout said:


> > For Sale: Townhouse in Girona Spain....[\quote]
> 
> 
> You got that one right. There is a reason why so many pros live in Spain. It used to be the last bastion of doping freedom. You did not have to worry about police raids and investigations. Now the Spanish authorities may have come up with the biggest coup yet.
> ...


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## surftel (Apr 18, 2005)

*the roads in Portugal suck*

so Portugal is of the picture.

I don't know why anyone is suprise, when Zulle finally fessed up he said that Once's program was even more advanced then Festina.....gee, who else was on Once back then?

I know! old Johnny be bad himself....I wonder what ever came of him? You think he was able to take some of the things he learned from Saiz and have some success?

I am glad it is only the Euros who do this stuff, why can't they just ride clean like the Americans?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

I would also add that since the introduction of the mandatory health tests and the EPO test we may actually have the unfortunate situation where guys are winning specifically because they have access to better doping techniques. At least in the hey-day of EPO and even when the hematocrit limit was introduced at least no one was winning because they were doped when most other riders weren't (although there probably were some who weren't competitive because they didn't dope).


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## Stud Muzzin (Mar 5, 2006)

dagger said:


> Vino has gotten the royal screwing of his life here, because they aren't going to get to do their recon now.


No surprise here, El Pais reporting today that Liberty Seguros has ended its sponshorship with Saiz's team.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*hey I have a new game*

7 degrees of Postal / Discovery
so everytime there is a doping bust lets see how many ways or how long it takes to get back to Postal/Discovery / Johann/ Lance
I'm no homer but this squad has had P.I's and reporters tracking them, going through their garbage etc... for years but every time a team gets popped the blame goes back to them. I'm not saying they are not doping, but this linking every doping bust to them is getting old.

Tyler gets popped after he's transferred 2 teams a 3 seasons after he leaves - he rode for Postal
Heras gets popped 2-3 seasons after he gets popped - he rode for Postal
Saiz gets busted and it looks like this thing has tentacles - Johann rode for Once!

why not point the finger of where they are vs where they were.
American's dirty?most likely, Tyler has already been popped. Euro's dirty yup. All dirty, probably most of them.

So I'm gonna break out my tinfoil hat now and say the reason Johann and Co.haven't been caught is because they have better dope than the rest of the peloton, that LA's connection to Squibb gives them the advantage. I can see the marketing "A new product from Squibb, if LA had taken it, which he didn't he'd have been even faster, wink, wink"
doesn't quite work as a sales tool.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> 7 degrees of Postal / Discovery
> so everytime there is a doping bust lets see how many ways or how long it takes to get back to Postal/Discovery / Johann/ Lance
> I'm no homer but this squad has had P.I's and reporters tracking them, going through their garbage etc... for years but every time a team gets popped the blame goes back to them. I'm not saying they are not doping, but this linking every doping bust to them is getting old.
> 
> ...


excellent post, agree on all points.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

I wonder if the US Postal Service never inspected any shipments to US Postal or Discovery Channel and helped facilitate distribution.





atpjunkie said:


> 7 degrees of Postal / Discovery
> so everytime there is a doping bust lets see how many ways or how long it takes to get back to Postal/Discovery / Johann/ Lance
> I'm no homer but this squad has had P.I's and reporters tracking them, going through their garbage etc... for years but every time a team gets popped the blame goes back to them. I'm not saying they are not doping, but this linking every doping bust to them is getting old.
> 
> ...


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> 7 degrees of Postal / Discovery
> so everytime there is a doping bust lets see how many ways or how long it takes to get back to Postal/Discovery / Johann/ Lance
> I'm no homer but this squad has had P.I's and reporters tracking them, going through their garbage etc... for years but every time a team gets popped the blame goes back to them. I'm not saying they are not doping, but this linking every doping bust to them is getting old.
> 
> ...


US Postal/Disco IS Euro as much as it is US, DS is Euro, riders live everywhere in Europe as well as the States, the races are all euro except for just a few. The tiny world of por-racing is so interlocked that it is terribly naive to say there would be a difference between the US and Yurp. To me Liberty Seguros is as supect as Disco as Quick Step as Euskaltel as Phonak as CSC etc etc. Spain only recently made doping actually punishable by law and it seems they are really pushing to make a difference. I say let the rest of Europe follow as well as the US and we might really see what's going on where.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> So I'm gonna break out my tinfoil hat now and say the reason Johann and Co.haven't been caught is because they have better dope than the rest of the peloton,


Uh, oh. He's gone off on his super dope strawman again. ATP has a unique version of the strawman. Usually you make something up and tear the argmument down. ATP makes something up, attributes it to his opponents, and then calls them crazy for believing his very own theory that no one but him as ever advoctated. Nice. But I don't see why you stop with some cock and bull story about super dope. Why not just start accusing people of being pedophiles or nazis.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> Uh, oh. He's gone off on his super dope strawman again. ATP has a unique version of the strawman. Usually you make something up and tear the argmument down. ATP makes something up, attributes it to his opponents, and then calls them crazy for believing his very own theory that no one but him as ever advoctated. Nice. But I don't see why you stop with some cock and bull story about super dope. Why not just start accusing people of being pedophiles or nazis.


Wasn't directed at you, UACS, so why take atp's comment so personally?

When I read a post about Saiz that happens to mention - oh, and by the way, let's not forget that Bruneel used to race for ONCE under Saiz some 15 years ago - what's the purpose of such comment if not to bring the "six degrees of separation" game to get back at Disco/Postal? 

If you think the comments that atp posted about Heras/Hamilton and attempts to blame their postal background is something that atp "made up" in his attempt to build a straw man, then... well, whose head is in the sand now?


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## surftel (Apr 18, 2005)

*Great game!*

I have a few more, not 7 degrees more like 1....or 0

Chechini and Ferrari went to college together, studied under the same teacher, coached athletes togther.

Ferrai was Lance's Prepatore....unitll of course he was convicted. Lance and the team issued this statement

"Dr Ferrari has been a longtime friend and trusted adviser to me and the US Postal team"

"I am not surprised by that verdict. However, I have always said that I have zero tolerance for anyone convicted of using or facilitating the use of performance-enhancing drugs. As a result of today's developments, the USPS team and I have suspended our professional affiliation with Dr. Ferrari"

If this is the case they why is he coaching Popo and Danilson?

Just in case you did not belive me here are some pictures. Recognize anyone? Patrick Sinkewitz in pink and Tom Danielson and Popovich in the Disco gear and our friend Dr Ferrari in his trademark black t-shirt.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

surftel said:


> I have a few more, not 7 degrees more like 1....or 0
> 
> Chechini and Ferrari went to college together, studied under the same teacher, coached athletes togther.
> 
> ...


WOW! I guess this seals the deal. This is the smoking gun prosecutors were hunting for years. 

Also - Ferrari writes a column for cyclingnews.com. Anyone who visited their webpage must be doping. Makes perfect sense to me. Connect the dots!


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## Guest (May 25, 2006)

What fun, this is like watching a dog chase it's own tail...uhm, nvm.


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## surftel (Apr 18, 2005)

*Remember this?*

rom 1998:

MADRID, Spain (CNN/SI) -- Two directors of Spain's top cycling teams Banesto and ONCE welcomed the call by the president of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) Juan Antonio Samaranch for the legalization of some performance-enhancing drugs in sport.

"I'm completely in agreement with Saramanch." Eusebio Unzue, the Banesto team director said Monday, adding "I'm also pleased that he has chosen this time to speak out. It's very important because our sport needs to recapture its long-held good image. His comments are extremely important and we have to take advantage of them."

That sentiment was echoed by ONCE director Manolo Saiz, who said, "I think these were good words from Saramanch, to set us on a good course in professional sport.

"As it stands, all those substances prohibited by the medical commission of the International Olympic Committee are considered as doping substances." Samaranch said in an interview with the Spanish daily El Mundo on Sunday.

"For me, this is not sufficient. Drug taking is anything which firstly damages the health of the sportsman and, secondly, artificially improves his performance."

"If something produces just the second effect, then for me it's not drug-taking. If it produces the first, then yes."

"The list of products must be reduced drastically. Anything that doesn't adversely affect the health of the athlete, for me isn't doping," Samaranch later reiterated.


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## surftel (Apr 18, 2005)

*Remember this?*

From Zulle

"I acknowledge having made use of EPO for about 4 years ... The first time, I was riding for the Spanish team ONCE. I used these drugs for each important race such as the Tour de France, the Giro, the Spanish Tour, having two injections of EPO 2000 per week, for about 3-4 weeks before each race and for the duration of the race ... While I was part of the ONCE team, this practice of using EPO operated in the same way, and I can say that the 20 or so riders consumed EPO under the control of Drs Terrados and another one called José ... I can't prove it but I think that these days you can find EPO in all the big teams .."

Of course I am sure is lying and he was the only guy on the team using, other people like Brunyeel were clean of course


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Don't you know you can never believe what a doper says because he's a cheat?

Manzano was obviously lying thru his teeth when he said Fuentes was involved in doping riders. Of course the biggest crank of them all is Simeoni. Saying those awful things about Ferrari, why the nerve of him.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Come on.....*

LOL...Those guys with pot bellies are Danielson and Popo?


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

surftel said:


> I have a few more, not 7 degrees more like 1....or 0
> 
> Chechini and Ferrari went to college together, studied under the same teacher, coached athletes togther.
> 
> ...


You forgot to mention Jan in the TMob gear! It's all crumbling!


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

Funny stuff from ProCycling:

"While Saiz has been released – according to La Gazzetta dello Sport because he had a panic attack during questioning..."

I bet he did.

"Saiz is reported to have entered the café with a briefcase that was later found to contain 60,000 (£45,000) euros worth of currency in both euros and Swiss francs. Fuentes is reported to have been seen entering the café, located in the same street as Merino’s clinic, with a cold-bag. Minutes later, Saiz left the café with the cold-bag and was later detained, when a search of the bag turned up bags of blood and alleged doping products."

So was the blood meant for the Giro (unlikely since there were few stages left and Liberty has been crap) or for the Tour recon trip that Saiz had scheduled?


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## surftel (Apr 18, 2005)

*Here is a better picture*

It amazes me what people will say when they don't want to belive

old Malcom Ellott in Blue, Patrick Sinkewitz in pink and Tom Danielson and Popovich in the Disco gear, Enrico Gasparatto in the Liquigas


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## surftel (Apr 18, 2005)

*one more*

one more


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

surftel said:


> It amazes me what people will say when they don't want to belive
> 
> old Malcom Ellott in Blue, Patrick Sinkewitz in pink and Tom Danielson and Popovich in the Disco gear, Enrico Gasparatto in the Liquigas


And Guerini in pink...my bad.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

surftel said:


> It amazes me what people will say when they don't want to belive
> 
> old Malcom Ellott in Blue, Patrick Sinkewitz in pink and Tom Danielson and Popovich in the Disco gear, Enrico Gasparatto in the Liquigas


I'm pretty sure that it's been reported previously in the cycling press that Ferrari was back working with Discovery riders despite what Armstrong may have said at the time of his conviction.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*all I'm saying is*

when Discovery gets busted then lets bash them. when T-Mobile gets busted lets bash them. But why when every other team gets busted does it go back to Postal/Discovery?
Do I think Johann doped at ONCE? most likely. seems like everyone doped during that era. Roulers weren't getting dropped on HC climbs, 90 riders over the top together where it used to be 20. Do I think Johann may have a doping plan for the team? Just as much as I do for every DS out there. Do I think somehow Discovery has better drugs or masking agents? NO that is tinfoil territory.
So all I ask is how for some reason with all their ex riders, who've gone to other teams getting popped, other teams getting popped and other riders getting popped does the Discovery squad not get popped, especially given the higher than average scrutiny they and LA have/had been under? It's not like every squad has had guys going through their trash the last 5 years.
a) They are just really careful?
b) They are smarter about it?
please discuss.


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## surftel (Apr 18, 2005)

I see your point and it is valid. 

The point I was trying to make is that there is culture of doping that runs thru our sport. No rider or DS is imune at the top level ...they are all connected to it. This has been made very clear in the last few days as it appears many riders and prepatore were getting their blood work done at this one place. It appears there are very clear line to Basso, Ulrich and many others. Basso can say he no longer works with Chechini, they are just good friends.....I don't know about you but if my good friend helped run a dope lab I would be concerned

I lived and rode in Europe for 6 years, never at the highest level but good enough that some of my friends and teamates went on to the big leagues. What I saw and the stories they would tell me would shock the hell out of you. The phrase that sums it up best was one that a friend of mine who ended up riding the tour twice used to say. He would always discribe pro cycling as "a crazy little science experiment"

Check this photo, is this what cycling has come to? Bags of blood?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I agree I'm not denying it at all*

just saying lets punish the guilty and stay vigilant on the rest. Speculating and making tangential connections just shows bias against specific squads and / or riders. Nothing bummed me personally more than Museeuw, I had always suspected but him getting nailed just sealed the deal.
All top level athletics is the said 'crazy little science experiment' your friend referred to. Football (both types), Baseball, cycling, track ad nauseum. People will always look for an edge and some will go to whatever extreme to win. sad.


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## Guest (May 25, 2006)

surftel said:


> I see your point and it is valid.
> 
> The point I was trying to make is that there is culture of doping that runs thru our sport. No rider or DS is imune at the top level ...they are all connected to it. This has been made very clear in the last few days as it appears many riders and prepatore were getting their blood work done at this one place. It appears there are very clear line to Basso, Ulrich and many others. Basso can say he no longer works with Chechini, they are just good friends.....I don't know about you but if my good friend helped run a dope lab I would be concerned
> 
> ...


Bloody hell! I thought it was "packets" as in post centrifuged blood. Where is this picture from? The shite has really hit the fan this time


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

AJL said:


> Bloody hell! I thought it was "packets" as in post centrifuged blood. Where is this picture from? The shite has really hit the fan this time


More pics:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Correct. Just about every sport major or minor where money is involved, drug use and doping may/is rampant.

When there is big money/money to be made and where the athletes are so close that they need an edge over each other, drugs will com into play.

Hell, even the Chinese Women's Olympic swim team a few years back was using HGH.

I always crack up when I hear "experts" say when a coologe footbal player get's to the NFL "they will bulk him up and put soem weight on him."

You think it's only food and more weight training?

All I have to say is BARRY BONDS!!! 

It's sad but drug and doping in part of sports since the 50's and the old Eastern Block countires who started with it on a big time level.
Sadly, it will always be with us in some form or another....


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