# traffic tickets # 3 and 4



## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Rode around Brooklyn today, lovely stay-cation with the spousal unit, who got to see 3/4ths of my work commute. 

On the way home, I paused at a red light and did my usual check: No traffic, check. No cops, check. Light was about to turn green, okay let's go............_BwooopBWOOP._   So the cops got 2-for-1 today. 

I was calm until the young cop handed me the ticket, along with a Vision Zero booklet. "Have you heard about Vision Zero?" He flipped through the booklet as if I had just arrived from outer space. "This booklet explains all about traffic safety and how bikes need to follow the same laws as cars......." :mad5:

"Oh I know about Vision Zero, but WE are not the problem! It's CARS that are killing people, not _cyclists!_ Are you handing these booklets out to drivers who are _mowing down people_ while they're walking _on the sidewalks_?!" 

Reminded the cop that I know it's not his fault, that I understand bike safety, but there's hundreds of intersections along the way, and I ride the route all the time. Why isn't the mayor going after the drivers??

Decades of riding, including all of Bloomberg's extra-long administration- nary a summons. Now that DeBlasio's in office- three tickets. :mad2:

I swear that "Vision Zero's" actual goal is to keep on killing and ticketing cyclists until there are zero. They'll all be either dead or so fed up they'll get into their cars and drive to work like fattened sheep to slaughter. 

The cop that got my husband told him that a little girl was killed by a cyclist in the past two weeks. When we got home, we Googled around for that story, but only found this video (same area as where we got pulled over.)


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I got a ticket once for rolling through a stop sign on my bike. It seemed unfair to me at the time. However I learned my lesson and now I stop, put my foot down and then go. Mostly it's not a problem for me as my usual rides only have one signal and one stop sign. . Car's get inpatient as starting from a dead stop and requiring clipping in is not fast enough for them. Luckily the Saturday shop rides just have one signal and everyone seems to be fine with obeying traffic laws. If they did not then I would quit going.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

There's a 3-mile or so stretch of the route that's got a traffic light at each block. Since 1 mile = 20 blocks, we're talking 60 lights (with a couple of stop signs.)

Round trip = 120 potential stops, and this stretch represents only 20% of the entire ride. The rest of the route isn't quite as dense, though there are intersections aplenty.

On the way home tonight, husband and I stopped as needed on that stretch, but it's demoralizing when you're going up a hill, have some nice momentum, and have to stop despite lack of traffic. We had to stop every couple of minutes.

At one point, we had to do a complete detour- the block was taped off due to a smashed car in the opposite lane. It looked like an accordion pushed in. Probably one of those rogue cyclists


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

I understand your frustration but you did break the law. Then you complained to the cop for not going after drivers that break the law. What you really want is selective enforcement of the laws. You state that there are sixty traffic lights on your commute each way, would it be ok for cars to run them also. Rules are rules follow them and you won't get tickets. Don't like them work to change them. Yes I have run lights but if I get stopped, my fault.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I suppose if I had to regularly maneuver through 60 traffic signals I would use flat pedals and an enclosed gear in back so I could shift after stopping. However it's not my life and I live in a small town and cycle in the hills out of traffic.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)




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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

I'm not contesting that the law was broken; I was irritated by the fact that cops are focusing on bikers lately, while implying that we are somehow a problem.

Vision Zero is supposed to be about increasing safety for pedestrians and bikers. Yet every day, there's another story about how cars are mowing people down while the victims are riding and walking perfectly legally- on the sidewalks, in a bike lane, in a crosswalk and so on. 

It's just very odd that, after all these years of riding, it's only the past year I'm getting tickets. My riding style hasn't changed. Cyclists aren't the problem.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

I wish the constabulary would disregard the cyclists. Sure, maybe tickets for blatant recklessness, but this is nuts.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

SPlKE said:


>


You can't nowadays. They're catching onto this cycling game.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Maybe you could meet with the mayor. Chat with him about what you are seeing. Maybe invite him on a ride to see first hand what you are seeing.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Christine said:


> I wish the constabulary would disregard the cyclists. Sure, maybe tickets for blatant recklessness, but this is nuts.


At least you New Yorkers can now legally drink alcohol publicly wherever you please, and go to the bathroom right on the sidewalk whenever the urge strikes. That's progress! So kinder, gentler bike laws can't be far behind.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Stop and live ticket free or keep running the stop signs and get more tickets from time to time and blame it on the Police. It's your choice to make. Good luck.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> I wish the constabulary would disregard the cyclists. Sure, maybe tickets for blatant recklessness, but this is nuts.


Wish in one hand and spit in the other.

I bet I know which one fills first.


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## Oh My Sack! (Apr 11, 2016)

The last 2 road riders I observed rolling a stop sign was a couple months ago. I was on the freeway headed to the trail with my mtb in tow and had a front row seat to what I thought was about to be utter carnage. Looking down on the scene from an elevated portion of the highway, they rolled a stop that abutted what is both a roadway as well as an acceleration lane for a rather short onramp to the freeway I was on. They rolled without regard right in front of an accelerating 500 class BMW that was probably rolling at 60+ by that point. The driver went full brake and skilfully threaded the narrow needle between the 2 riders forcing him to go off the edge of the embankment. If it wasn't for his driving skills, ABS braking, and his unselfish willingness to essentially sacrifice his own life, I have no doubt I would have witnessed the brutal and gory death of two riders. Had he attempted to stay on the road, at least one would have been killed. 

I ride road now. It's new to me but I have always been an very outspoken advocate for those that choose the riding lifestyle, even with all the stupid things I've seen road riders do. After that day, I refused to openly advocate and defend the group as a whole, even though I have joined rank so to speak. I ride alone. I ride like I'm invisible. I stop at every stop sign and signal and then get myself out on the open road. IMO, until riders unite as whole and take a hard stand against offending riders actions and clean up within the ranks, I'll not speak another word in defense of these situations. I'm certain everybody here has seen the dialogue of the general public commenting on social media every time a rider is killed or injured. It's brutal how non-riders feel and is generally unfounded but there's to many VISIBLE bad apples on bikes and that's going to take a lot of work...but something has to be done. My .02

So, sorry OP, I respectfully disagree with your traffic situation. You were in the wrong and like with any other traffic cite situation, you just got caught. Wrong place, wrong time. I would expect the same if it happened to me.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Oh My Sack, while you are right in that we should clean up our own act (I have often been cussed out by cyclists whose traffic foibles I was contesting) I find it interesting that you mention how visible our scofflaws are. Yes, drivers remember seeing the bad apples on bicycles. But those same drivers see many more bad apple drivers every day and selectively ignore them. Now that you are one of us, please don't make the same mistake those other drivers are making. We can recognize that there are bad apple cyclists but know that the percentage of them is actually lower than the bad apple drivers, so we do not need to feed the flame wars by accepting their rants as gospel.


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## Oh My Sack! (Apr 11, 2016)

bradkay said:


> Oh My Sack, while you are right in that we should clean up our own act (I have often been cussed out by cyclists whose traffic foibles I was contesting) I find it interesting that you mention how visible our scofflaws are. Yes, drivers remember seeing the bad apples on bicycles. But those same drivers see many more bad apple drivers every day and selectively ignore them. Now that you are one of us, please don't make the same mistake those other drivers are making. We can recognize that there are bad apple cyclists but know that the percentage of them is actually lower than the bad apple drivers, so we do not need to feed the flame wars by accepting their rants as gospel.


I wholeheartedly agree! As a very high mileage motorcycle rider, I see atrocious stuff on the road from fellow drivers, not to mention while I'm in my car but hyperawareness is how I ride. There are far more infractions being caused by drivers but when the public sees 2 boneheaded moves out of the 8 or 10 kitted out riders they might have seen that day, I think the day to day vehicular nonsense gets filtered out. The public rants are ALWAYS so far off base and mostly just some of the most stupid, uninformed comments ever, I just don't bother to try and explain as I used to. I'm never combative and I usually try and educate and explain what the law is and what rider's responsibilities are but then I go out and see it for myself regularly (Central Coast CA = Riders mecca), after that near miss incident, I just shut my pie hole and watch the hate a vitriol spew forth because a rider was killed by a drunk driver. Somehow it was his fault.

I get what you're saying.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Christine's got a great point: cyclists aren't going fast enough to threaten pedestrians but fast enough to be tolerated in the flow of traffic. They should be able to cheat stop signs, slowing to check the way, and if clear, go. Cops respect me when I come to a complete stop, do a half second track stand as I'm looking to right and left, and then go. 

DC is small blocks in a square grid, overlaid with L'Enfant's boulevards and circles. One way streets on the grid are lousy for driving but perfect at cycling speeds. There's a stop sign at every intersection, some busy, others not. Cyclists blow through them all the time, but mostly cautiously, sensibly respectful of auto traffic and who has the right of way.

So watch your back! Ya didn't see that one, did ya?  See what happens if a track stand works or if he'll whine at you for not putting your foot down. Vigilance. Identify the enemy. Cops are hard to spot often, because they're not moving. Then all of a sudden, bam, one appears out of nowhere.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I got one on Friday the 27-th. Must be the time of year when the cops decide to do something about the damn cyclists. If anyone has seen my post on the commuting section, it shows that I'm lucky enough to be able to ride in on a dedicated bike path. It crosses several roads and we're supposed to stop at each one. Usually what happens is that the cyclists slow down, but don't come to a complete stop. If a car is coming, it usually stops and the driver motions the cyclists across. The motorists don't have to do this, and some actually speed up. So anyone who blows through these intersections is gunning for a Darwin Award IMO. I'm with Fredrico and Christine on this -- we should get some leniency. 

Every Spring, the city of Falls Church gets some cop in training (a kid) to hide behind a bush and catch cyclists who run the stop section at the intersection. No tolerance for even slowing down. He's out there for a couple days and then disappears for the year and everything returns to normal. He got my wife a couple of years ago. An Arlington County cop got me on the path where it briefly merges into the street after crossing Route 29. She's writing me a ticket and I'm standing there watching the cars coast through the intersection. Saw a cop in his unmarked car there this morning, but this time I stopped and put both feet down. The annoying thing is that these cops are there specifically to go after cyclists. She said the cops are there "because we are getting a lot of complaints". A lot of complaints from who? What a load of snit.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Oh My Sack! said:


> I see atrocious stuff on the road from fellow drivers, not to mention while I'm in my car but hyperawareness is how I ride. There are far more infractions being caused by drivers but when the public sees 2 boneheaded moves out of the 8 or 10 kitted out riders they might have seen that day, I think the day to day vehicular nonsense gets filtered out.


And when you compare the number of injuries/deaths caused by cyclists vs drivers, it's ludicrous. 

How many times do people jaywalk each day? A pedestrian is better off statistically crossing in the middle of a street than in the crosswalk (where they're more likely to get hit by a car.)

People often talk about their close calls with "crazy cyclists," but when there's a crowd of jaywalkers ignoring the cyclist (who has the green), and the cyclists has to pick a line through the crowd, the jaywalkers shouldn't ***** and moan. Ditto those who step into the street, oblivious, while staring at their phones.

And the cyclist that buzzes close to them isn't hitting them. Would they rather have a close call with a bike or a car??


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> And the cyclist that buzzes close to them isn't hitting them. Would they rather have a close call with a bike or a car??


By this logic would cyclists rather be buzzed by a motorcycle or a truck?


I'm a firm believer in yielding the right of way to automotive traffic when it's due them and taking it when it's due me, and always yielding to pedestrians. And I also use the "Oregon stop", when traffic warrants, and haven't had an issue with the police in this neck of the woods, and I don't know that the "Oregon stop" is recognized here.

All that being said, Cops are people too. 

They have a job to do and they most highly differ in the ways that they go about doing it. Some may not like cyclists and abuse their authority, others may allow minor infractions, while others may think that they are doing the right thing by enforcing the law verbatim, who knows. They also may be following orders or see ticketing cyclists as easier than ticketing motorists.

I also think that in areas of heavier traffic the laws may be more strictly enforced upon cyclists, possibly due to public outcry, both by motorists and pedestrians. But I'm just supposin' here. 

Most of my cycling experiences with the police have been good, the only issue that I have had was with a cop who claimed to be a cyclist and wanted me to hug the curb, for my own safety. I didn't he didn't ticket me, but that's a memory that has stuck with me.

There may be a little of the bad outweighing the good here. We've all dealt with "automotive harassment", but how many drivers treat us respectfully compared to the bad apples. The good outway the bad by a Large Margin, in my estimation, and that may be the same with police stops. It's easier to remember the one that gets our attention than the many that don't.

Again, I'm just supposin' here.


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

[QUOTE He flipped through the booklet *as if I had just arrived from outer space. *[/QUOTE]

Apparently you have.



> *out to drivers who are mowing down people while they're walking on the sidewalks?!" *


Really?? Is this a problem in NYC. Cars running over people on sidewalks. Hmmmmmmmmm, you would think that would make the news. Instead cops must stand around giving the driver high-fives and sending him on his way. Or is there some kind of cover up going on?

Granted, this I've heard of this happening in Vegas but maybe 4 times in about 25-30 years. Not like it's an epidemic.



> *WE are not the problem*


Really? Cyclist cause their own problems in a number of ways. Maybe not individually but as a group. A lot of casual cyclists ride against traffic or ride at night with no lights or reflectors or enter an intersection with the attitude that traffic has to stop for me. I've seen fully kitted racer types just blow through a light or stop sign.

And yeah, when I was commuting 24 mile one way for work there were plenty of times I ran a light or stop sign but at 4:30 in the morning I can see headlights approaching. I also did not run them at speed. I slowed down enough that if I had to stop I could stop without causing a problem. Still commuting but not as far and there are time where I'm anticipating the light, I'm feet up starting to pedal but it's a split second before the light goes green or as the light goes green. I've had cops behind me, no tickets.

I've been doing this a lot longer than you have trust me.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bmach said:


> I understand your frustration but you did break the law. Then you complained to the cop for not going after drivers that break the law. What you really want is selective enforcement of the laws. You state that there are sixty traffic lights on your commute each way, would it be ok for cars to run them also. Rules are rules follow them and you won't get tickets. Don't like them work to change them. Yes I have run lights but if I get stopped, my fault.



I think a better way to phrase what Christine wants - which is what I want, is for cops to have greater understanding of the frustrations a NYC bike commuter goes thru when they have to stop for as many friggin lights in so short a distance, and to better be able to exercise judgement to waive a ticket with a warning.

I KNOW that NYC has steadily added lights on the streets of Brooklyn where I commute, at absurd places like a steady blocks of intersections with one way crossing streets, where a stop sign would better serve the purpose. Which is totally ironic as I heard an add on the local radio this AM to not idle your vehicle. Yet that's exactly what too many traffic lights does when they don't really have the requirement for them.

As well, the word comes down at the precinct and the cops just write the tickets, no questions asked and Christine has been the recipient of this. Which is why a NYC lawmaker has suggested to allow cyclists to slow and pause at stop signs and to treat red lights as stop signs. Works in other places and keeps cyclists from being the easy mark of a ticket quota campaign, which the NYPD is reknown for.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I don't get the impression that she was blowing through the stop sign at high speed. Sounds like NYC is running like DC -- need more money, hire a few more people to write more tickets. Or up the quota for those who already write tickets. 

Do you, or anyone else come to a full stop and unclip at every stop sign, even when there are no cars in sight? There's a difference between riding responsibly and being a complete dumbass. Unfortunately, it's the few dumbasses that everyone remembers. 

I've been bike commuting for 23 years.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Christine, since you have a GoPro now, plead your case in court. Show the judge your video.


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## Oh My Sack! (Apr 11, 2016)

Christine said:


> And the cyclist that buzzes close to them isn't hitting them. Would they rather have a close call with a bike or a car??


I'll just leave this right here to ponder....

Bicyclist sentenced for fatal S.F. crash - SFGate


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

"Really?? Is this a problem in NYC. Cars running over people on sidewalks. Hmmmmmmmmm, you would think that would make the news. Granted, this I've heard of this happening in Vegas but maybe 4 times in about 25-30 years. Not like it's an epidemic."

Yes, this is a problem. It has happened at least 3 times in the last month, if memory serves. Sometimes only local news. Happened right across the street from where I work in Brooklyn and never made the news.


"Really? Cyclist cause their own problems in a number of ways."

All true.

"I've been doing this a lot longer than you have trust me."

I've been bike commuting since '96 and ride NYC like Christine does, will roll red lights and stop signs when I feel it's safe and a low probability of pedestrian interference. My commute is 27 miles one-way and takes about 2 hours. If I stopped at every light and stop sign the commute would easily take 1/2 hour longer and would defeat the purpose. As well, I'm the one at risk and I'm careful so rolling signs and lights is safe if done carefully.


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## Litespeed_96 (Dec 29, 2005)

*That's a reach*

Not sure what we are supposed to ponder. One person killed by a a biker (over 3 years ago) isn't an epidemic. Cyclists can apparently kill other people, it just is very, very rare.

If I remember the other articles correctly about the accident, he was flying down the hill trying to get a Strava KOM when he hit the person. Your average cyclist, riding 15-20 mph really isn't a threat to hurting other people. If you do something stupid on a bike, you are most probably going to be the one that gets hurt.

Personally, I believe cyclists should be able to treat stop signs/red lights as yield if there isn't any other traffic.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Litespeed_96 said:


> Not sure what we are supposed to ponder. One person killed by a a biker (over 3 years ago) isn't an epidemic. Cyclists can apparently kill other people, it just is very, very rare.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_Really?? Is this a problem in NYC. Cars running over people on sidewalks. Hmmmmmmmmm, you would think that would make the news. Instead cops must stand around giving the driver high-fives and sending him on his way. Or is there some kind of cover up going on?_

Yes, every day in fact. I check Gothamist for the local news every morning, and since Halloween 2015, there was a stretch of time where a pedestrian or cyclist was killed by a car ever day. It was absurd. 

Recently, one car hit three people at once in the crosswalk (I think one is critically injured and the others were killed.) 

One cyclist was hit in Brooklyn and the cops claimed she was riding the wrong way, but another cyclist behind her said that she was riding the correct way. 

A NYPD van hit a man crossing the street in the crosswalk. The pedestrian had the light; the van turned left from the opposite direction, plowed right into him, he died at the hospital. This was caught on video.

Another cyclist run over late at night, both the cyclist and speeding car were seen on a security camera (don't know if the actual accident was also taped.) 

A cyclist was killed by a truck driver who was high on whatever last April.

I got pushed over by a red van a few months ago, just cut in front of me and took over my lane like I wasn't there. A couple weeks or so later, I read about a similar red van that killed a cyclist. No idea if it was the same guy.

One cyclist killed/one injured on Staten Island when a boat came loose from the hitch, driver changed lanes and the boat kept going, right into the cyclists. Oh and no charges for the driver! It's not like he _paused at a stop sign_ on his_ bike _

This is just the list off the top of my head. Here's another one from Staten Island:
Carnage | Streetsblog New York City

Another where the cab "didn't see her": [UPDATE] Woman Killed In Midtown By Livery Cab Driver Who "Didn't See Her": Gothamist

Random assortment in one day ("Three people are dead after three separate hit-an-run collisions that happened overnight in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens"): Police search for driver in fatal hit-and-run in the Bronx | New York's PIX11 / WPIX-TV

Another wayward cab: Taxi Driver Hits Two People On First Avenue, Crashes Into Building: Gothamist

PMF is correct, I'm not stupid enough to zoom through intersections like they're all mine. Not with the traffic around here! If a cyclist got hit doing something stupid like that, I wouldn't defend him/her unless the driver was also being reckless somehow. 

My rant is about the disproportionate amount of blame that goes toward cyclists. 

What's extra-disturbing is how the cops lie about it, blatantly, even blaming the victims (see "pedestrian assumed risk when crossing the street.") The cop that pulled over John said that somebody was killed by a cyclist in the past two weeks, and we're still trying to find that story.

Cracking down on the bikes is clearly not the answer.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Christine said:


> _Really?? Is this a problem in NYC. Cars running over people on sidewalks. Hmmmmmmmmm, you would think that would make the news. Instead cops must stand around giving the driver high-fives and sending him on his way. Or is there some kind of cover up going on?_
> 
> Yes, every day in fact. I check Gothamist for the local news every morning, and since Halloween 2015, there was a stretch of time where a pedestrian or cyclist was killed by a car ever day. It was absurd.
> 
> ...


Nonetheless, it's still prudent for pedestrians and cyclists to never assume the right of way. They should always be on the lookout for trucks, taxis, especially police vehicles.

When I lived in Queens and worked in lower Manhattan, one of the first things I observed were how aggressive pedestrians and yes, cyclists, negotiated with traffic. When the walk sign went green, middle aged ladies typically would walk out into the crosswalk, in front of turning vehicles, with no regard for safety, as if their mere presence in the crosswalk would stop an equally aggressive driver intent on cutting through the sea of pedestrians. The hostility was rampant. Normally polite walkers would spit on cars and throw things at them if they felt their right of way was dissed.

Can't help imagining when a cyclist or pedestrian is hit by a large vehicle in a cross walk, its often because the latter was totally oblivious to the danger presented to their flesh and bones by a much heavier and more powerful vehicle. The busier the street, the less a cyclist will stand out. Drivers indeed won't see them until its too late.

I drove highway 1 in VN for a year. It was a 2 lane blacktop used by walkers, carts, cyclists, motor scooters, cars, and big trucks. Never saw an accident. Slower moving vehicles magically gave way to the faster moving vehicles, no question. The big trucks had the right of way, jeeps one step down. Basic law of survival, observed throughout the animal kingdom. 

But not with New Yorkers. They arrogantly ignore their safety to make a point. Then are shocked when they get hit. :nono:


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

I have always been of the opinion that NYC could solve some budget issues if they stopped targeting cyclists in these so-called "crackdowns" and simply start ticketing jaywalkers in Manhatten. 

That said when an NYPD van makes a turn onto a side street and runs over and kills a pedestrian that has a signed right-of-way in a crosswalk, then the city's lawyer claim the pedestrian is at fault, well Deblasios Vision Zero message is revealed as total BS. If you can't educate the cops to pay attention, how are you going to educate the driving public ?.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Steve B. said:


> I have always been of the opinion that NYC could solve some budget issues if they stopped targeting cyclists in these so-called "crackdowns" and simply start ticketing jaywalkers in Manhatten.
> 
> That said when an NYPD van makes a turn onto a side street and runs over and kills a pedestrian that has a signed right-of-way in a crosswalk, then the city's lawyer claim the pedestrian is at fault, well Deblasios Vision Zero message is revealed as total BS. If you can't educate the cops to pay attention, how are you going to educate the driving public ?.


If they want to generate some cash from easy pickins, ticket cigarette smokers on the street. I have a client in mid town and I walk from Penn Station down to 26th St and back on a regular basis. I usually encounter at least a dozen people breaking the smoking law.

I sort of don't "get" NYC laws these days. You can now pee on the street or anywhere else you want to pee, and drink booze from the bottle in public... but bicycles that don't come to a complete stop, where a complete stop is no more safe than a cautious slow roll through... Bam! Get 'em! 

This seems to be going in the wrong direction for quality of life issues: target bicyclists who are actively helping ease traffic and pollution... but accommodate people who stink up public places all over the city with their urine... and help winos who like to drink on the street and in parks by legalizing public drinking... and make sure cops completely ignore people who completely ignore the anti-smoking laws.

Why? What's your thought process there, Mr. Mayor?


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_But not with New Yorkers. They arrogantly ignore their safety to make a point. Then are shocked when they get hit. _

I guess you didn't check any of the posted examples. The people getting killed_ are _obeying the law. 

Yes, pedestrians can get arrogant, because they know they have the right of way. When jaywalkers cross the street at the red, they do so en masse. 

Cyclists don't- there's usually one or two who'll check for traffic and keep going, while most of the others stop and wait. I rarely see a cyclist blowing through an intersection w/o at least checking first. 

Pedestrians can be either arrogant or clueless, however, even in a big group, and yet never get ticketed.

Again, the point is, it doesn't even matter- the cyclists that were killed in the above links were riding lawfully. The cop who killed the pedestrian in the crosswalk and blamed the pedestrian, seems to have gotten less of a punishment than me pausing at a stop sign.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

No matter what you use to justify running traffic controll signals you are WRONG. You sight sixty intersections so stopping would add time. Well it adds time for cars but you would not agree with them if they talked like you do. Just obey the law(s) and if you don't like them organize and work to change them. Some places allow cyclists to treat red lights like stop signs, work towards that goal. Until then expect to get tickets.


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

Steve B. said:


> "Really?? Is this a problem in NYC. Cars running over people on sidewalks. Hmmmmmmmmm, you would think that would make the news. Granted, this I've heard of this happening in Vegas but maybe 4 times in about 25-30 years. Not like it's an epidemic."
> 
> Yes, this is a problem. It has happened at least 3 times in the last month, if memory serves. Sometimes only local news. Happened right across the street from where I work in Brooklyn and never made the news.
> 
> ...


So driving on sidewalks in NYC is a common practice. Boy, that is progressive. I've been a serious cyclist for the past 36 yrs. All of which include racing, training rides, groups rides, general riding, commuting but I've never lived anywhere the 1st response is to blame the cyclist for an accident.


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

Christine said:


> _Really?? Is this a problem in NYC. Cars running over people on sidewalks. Hmmmmmmmmm, you would think that would make the news. Instead cops must stand around giving the driver high-fives and sending him on his way. Or is there some kind of cover up going on?_
> 
> Yes, every day in fact. I check Gothamist for the local news every morning, and since Halloween 2015, there was a stretch of time where a pedestrian or cyclist was killed by a car ever day. It was absurd.
> 
> ...


Well it sounds to me like the powers that be in NYC are the problem, and here I was led to believe that progressive cared about everybody. 

But anywho, getting blasted crossing the street and somebody driving on a sidewalk and mowing people down are two different things. Before they put the overhead bridges across the Strip in Vegas, it seemed like some poor shmuck was getting blasted every other week and it was always the pedestrian's fault. Which is BS of course. Attitudes were starting to change by the time I left. For the longest time, if you were a pedestrian, cyclist or motorcyclist and were involved in an accident, it was your fault. The deciding factor being a dead person can't sit there and say "no it wasn't".

I've been a serious cyclist for the past 36 yrs. If you add up all the miles I've ridden I've been to the moon. Been there, seen it, I'm on my way back now.
Over the years I been hit times where I've hit the ground. Broken collarbone, bunch of road rash, bunch of ground down bike parts. About 6 weeks ago some lady bumped me. I'm in a bike lane still moving at a decent pace but slowing for a light and she decides "I'm turning right here". Didn't knock me down. Just pissed me off. I'm also a motorcyclist. If you add up all the miles I've done on single track vehicles, I've been to the moon and back and done a few laps around the earth (just for kicks). About 4 weeks ago some guy in a Tahoe ran a red light in front of me. So here I am 4 weeks later, broken bone in my right hand and still have sore ribs. Haven't ridden the bike I just built up in 4 weeks. Pisses me off to be off the bike that long.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Wow, nothing today or yesterday, from what I can tell. But on Monday: Driver Arrested After Running Over Staten Island Woman, Victim's Dog Still Missing: Gothamist

At least they arrested the driver, that's a nice change of pace. Dog is still missing, though.


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## nsfbr (May 23, 2014)

The problem is not the cops, nor the cars per se. It is that we in this country haven't figured out how to prioritize our roads for anything other than cars. Look to Denmark and other places in Europe, Munich comes to mind. The cities have been redesigned to allow bikes to operate routinely and safely. What we have is a mentality that roads are for cars in urban settings when the opposite should be true - roads in urban settings should be dominated by things other than cars. Bikes, trams, light rail, buses, and the occasional car waiting its turn. 

It is the car first and damn near only culture we have that is the problem.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Christine said:


> _But not with New Yorkers. They arrogantly ignore their safety to make a point. Then are shocked when they get hit. _
> 
> I guess you didn't check any of the posted examples. The people getting killed_ are _obeying the law.
> 
> ...


Point well taken. NY cops are known for their arrogance, self-importance in a very competitive city. DC cops are angels in comparison, IME, anyway. So yeah, NYPD should be as strict with themselves as they are with the people they're supposed to protect!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

nsfbr said:


> The problem is not the cops, nor the cars per se. It is that we in this country haven't figured out how to prioritize our roads for anything other than cars. Look to Denmark and other places in Europe, Munich comes to mind. The cities have been redesigned to allow bikes to operate routinely and safely. What we have is a mentality that roads are for cars in urban settings when the opposite should be true - roads in urban settings should be dominated by things other than cars. Bikes, trams, light rail, buses, and the occasional car waiting its turn.
> 
> It is the car first and damn near only culture we have that is the problem.


You hit the nail squarely on the head. 

The current generation of urban planners are, however, doing just what you propose: restrict inner city traffic in older, more congested areas with walkable, bikeable thoroughfares lined with sidewalk cafes and retail stores. 

NYers don't need cars. Off street parking is astronomically espensive, park on the street and get towed away, gridlock. NYers walk a lot and depend on the subway. DC Metro residents love their METRO. Arlington VA and adjacent areas are full of bike lanes on full access thoroughfares, separate MUTS, and paved cut throughs, all new in the last 15 years. Drivers back in the 80s were hostile in DC, but not so today. Cyclists have been a part of traffic for a generation and drivers are used to us. I also found drivers in Longview and Tyler, TX, to be respectful of cyclists in the '90s. There were so few of us, we were a curious novelty. I deduce Americans are starting to see cycling as part of the solution rather than part of the problem.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Today's news features a driver who hit a woman on the sidewalk last spring- the driver had been smoking pot: Stoned Driver Who Drove Through A Crowded Manhattan Sidewalk Pleads Guilty: Gothamist


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Here's another really great example of how selective the cops are:

Sorry Cyclists, God Needs These Bike Lanes For Church Parking: Gothamist

:mad5: :mad2: :nonod:


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> You hit the nail squarely on the head.
> 
> The current generation of urban planners are, however, doing just what you propose: restrict inner city traffic in older, more congested areas with walkable, bikeable thoroughfares lined with sidewalk cafes and retail stores.
> 
> NYers don't need cars. Off street parking is astronomically espensive, park on the street and get towed away, gridlock. NYers walk a lot and depend on the subway. DC Metro residents love their METRO. Arlington VA and adjacent areas are full of bike lanes on full access thoroughfares, separate MUTS, and paved cut throughs, all new in the last 15 years. Drivers back in the 80s were hostile in DC, but not so today. Cyclists have been a part of traffic for a generation and drivers are used to us. I also found drivers in Longview and Tyler, TX, to be respectful of cyclists in the '90s. There were so few of us, we were a curious novelty. I deduce Americans are starting to see cycling as part of the solution rather than part of the problem.


Separate Manhatten from the other boroughs. Manhatten has a reasonably decent subway system, excepting the east side, so getting around without a car is completely feasible. Less so in the boroughs where subways are not as prevalent. Thus a lot of city folks end up driving, making bike commuting more a challenge


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

exracer said:


> So driving on sidewalks in NYC is a common practice. Boy, that is progressive. I've been a serious cyclist for the past 36 yrs. All of which include racing, training rides, groups rides, general riding, commuting but I've never lived anywhere the 1st response is to blame the cyclist for an accident.


That used to happen all the time in Athens, Georgia back in the 70s and 80s. If there was a bicycle/car collision the driver was never cited but the cyclist often was. I mentioned that to a friend who was a reporter for the Red & Black (UGA daily newspaper) and he did an article about that. The local police response? Start ticketing cyclists for any infraction. 

My experience with that was when a lady performed a left turn right in front of me when I was returning from a training ride. She took out my bike (pretzeled frame) and I took out her windshield (50 stitches in the face above the right eye). Much later that night while the doctor was still sticking me up a policeman came into the emergency room, ticket book in hand, and told me "You know that you have to have a light on your bike after dark." The doctor stopped pulling the thread waiting for me to respond. My response: "Yes sir, from thirty minutes after sunset until thirty minutes before sunrise I am required by law to burn a white light on the front of my bike that is visible from 500 feet. However, if you had shown up on time you would have known that this accident happened before sunset." (No police had shown up by the time the ambulance hauled me off to the hospital). He looked at me, slowly closed his ticket book and left the room. The doctor just smiled at me and finished stitching me up.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Another one for the collection: Good Samaritans Lift SUV Off Of Dying Woman In Midtown: Gothamist


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Christine said:


> Another one for the collection: Good Samaritans Lift SUV Off Of Dying Woman In Midtown: Gothamist


I'm actually amazed that the cops arrested and cited the driver for "failure to yield to a pedestrian" according to 1010WINS.

And yet they are defending the cop van driver who hit a pedestrian who had right-of-way in a crosswalk.

NYPD: Teacher Killed by Cop in Crosswalk ?Assumed Risk? by Crossing Street | Streetsblog New York City

The hypocrisy is remarkable, though I'm glad they arrested the driver in yesterdays accident.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_The hypocrisy is remarkable, though I'm glad they arrested the driver in yesterdays accident. _

Guess we should be happy that the latest driver is being held accountable, and take what little we can get. 

I can understand somewhat, that the way cars are designed these days makes it difficult to see/feel like a part of one's surroundings. If somebody's used to driving a car, and then starts driving a SUV, I can understand that accidents will happen. But I don't know if this is the case with these accidents.

It's definitely NOT the case with the NYPD van, though- that cop was on her phone.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Then this as of this morning:

Fuel Truck Strikes, Kills Bicyclist In Brooklyn « CBS New York

Bike commuter in a bike lane, hit and killed by a truck making a left across her lane.

Vision Zero my ass. I think the NYPD didn't get the memo and it typical BS out of Diblasio.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Thought I posted that one? In any case, my husband calls it "Zero Incentive." As in, it gives people zero incentive to ride a bike in the city. That's how I've been feeling lately. 

In fact, I have a hearing coming up for ticket #2 sometime this month, need to double-check the date. And I have ticket #3 still fresh in my wallet. Gotta come up with my lame defense for #2. :idea:


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> In fact, I have a hearing coming up for ticket #2 sometime this month, need to double-check the date. And I have ticket #3 still fresh in my wallet. Gotta come up with my lame defense for #2. :idea:


Tell him you stopped, saw the traffic was clear and went through before the light changed so you wouldn't hold up traffic accelerating so much slower than the automotive traffic. In other words while not following the letter of the law, you obeyed the law in a way that makes you mesh with traffic better.
The same argument would explain slowing for a stop sign, checking for traffic and accelerating without stopping, if there is no cross traffic.

It's not a lame excuse, but a good reason to safely bend the law while impacting the rest of traffic to a lessor degree.

The worse he\she can do is make you pay the fine.


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## centurionomega (Jan 12, 2005)

We had a similar complication in San Francisco. Just complain like 'ell!<br>
There is a popular cycle thruway called the "Wiggle". For some reason the SFPD was staking out the stop signs along the way.
Our local Bicycle Coalition got together and caused a mass insurrection.
I've ridden the Wiggle and Waller where previously the cops had a bicycle STOP trap set up with no abrupt cessations.
Now, SF is not NYC, but best of luck to you.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

velodog said:


> Tell him you stopped, saw the traffic was clear and went through before the light changed so you wouldn't hold up traffic accelerating so much slower than the automotive traffic. In other words while not following the letter of the law, you obeyed the law in a way that makes you mesh with traffic better.
> The same argument would explain slowing for a stop sign, checking for traffic and accelerating without stopping, if there is no cross traffic.
> 
> It's not a lame excuse, but a good reason to safely bend the law while impacting the rest of traffic to a lessor degree.
> ...


That does sound logical. Thanks!

Riding home last night, I stopped at nearly every intersection. If another cyclist went through without incident, I followed. Cops were everywhere though.

Along 34th Ave, I counted the blocks, and it was every 5 blocks where I got caught at the red (5 blocks = 1/4 mile.) It was like a minute of riding, a minute of stopping, repeat ad nauseum. :cryin: I suppose it's a better workout, doing this on a singlespeed!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> Tell him you stopped, saw the traffic was clear and went through before the light changed so you wouldn't hold up traffic accelerating so much slower than the automotive traffic. In other words while not following the letter of the law, you obeyed the law in a way that makes you mesh with traffic better.
> The same argument would explain slowing for a stop sign, checking for traffic and accelerating without stopping, if there is no cross traffic.
> 
> It's not a lame excuse, but a good reason to safely bend the law while impacting the rest of traffic to a lessor degree.
> ...


I tried exactly that same argument with a cop years ago. He came back, "Sorry, sir. You may be right, but I have to give you a ticket anyway. Have a nice day."


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> I tried exactly that same argument with a cop years ago. He came back, "Sorry, sir. You may be right, but I have to give you a ticket anyway. Have a nice day."


Like I said, "the worse he\she can do is make you pay the fine". But, if the facts are heard, they may be taken into consideration, and just because your cop was unbending, that doesn't mean that this judge, or the next cop, will be also.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> Like I said, "the worse he\she can do is make you pay the fine". But, if the facts are heard, they may be taken into consideration, and just because your cop was unbending, that doesn't mean that this judge, or the next cop, will be also.


Well, you know the saying, "Look, if you have an issue with this ticket, you may request a court date and take it up with the judge!" There may be exceptions, but IME, cops are't all that willing to play judge and jury. A word to the wise. Then again, if you smile and cooperate, cop might give you a warning ticket, just to cover his a$$.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

The cop didn't describe the make/model of the vehicle for ticket #3, just wrote "bike." So maybe I'll plead not guilty based on that.......? Dunno if that counts as a technicality. Probably not.

It was funny to see the first ticket list "vehicle" as "black Mercier Kilo TT" or something like that.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Christine said:


> The cop didn't describe the make/model of the vehicle for ticket #3, just wrote "bike." So maybe I'll plead not guilty based on that.......? Dunno if that counts as a technicality. Probably not.
> 
> It was funny to see the first ticket list "vehicle" as "black Mercier Kilo TT" or something like that.


I had to drive into Brooklyn to pay a speeding ticket once. It was a conveyor belt of embarrassed, middle class New Yorkers. I was all prepared to argue my case. Before I could finish, the judge banged her gavel, "Next!" Good luck!


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