# Lever swap



## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

*Lever swap: Update*

Forgetting cost or practicality would it be possible to swap out a set of 2014 Centaur 10S aluminum levers onto a chorus/record/SR 11S "guts"?

I'm working on a steel restoration and want aluminum parts where possible but also like the idea of keeping all my bikes 11S. 10 speed Chorus all aluminum levers are one way but hard to come by these days and obviously not 11 speed. Athena 11s alloy group another, but not digging the shifters for Athena. All alloy Athena with Chorus 11s levers is still another, but really wanting aluminum levers not carbon.

Never seen a set in person but the 10 speed centaur takes the same hoods as the latest 11s, right? And the actual levers look the same as far as I can tell...but by no means an expert.

Thanks!


----------



## OrenPerets (Feb 22, 2006)

what i would (try to) do is chorus 11sp levers, and swap the blades to athena/centaur ones.

I looked into the campagnolo tech manual (replacement parts) and it seems it **may** work.

Oren


----------



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

The Athena levers on Chorus shifters work, I have my master on full UT/US Centaur though and doesn't bother me


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

I've read elsewhere that the levers can be swapped... I don't think you'll have any problems.


----------



## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the info so far!

Salsa_Lover are you saying you have done or have seen the two levers from each side taken off a set of Athena shifters and put on the Chorus internals to make a Chorus 11 speed ultra shift levers to end up with a full alloy set of ultra shift left and right? If so that is great. Please confirm. Thanks!


----------



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Yes, here on the Colnago Picture post thread, I have seen Masters built on Athena with Chorus shifters and Alu levers

the shifting paddle remain black though and not silver.

I still use the Centaur UT/US on my Master but that is because I have some NOS parts, nowadays you can't buy them anymore.


----------



## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Oh, so you can only swap out a brake lever!!??

Are the shifting levers behind the brakes levers part of the body? What happens if you break a shift lever on either side do you need an entire new assembly? Well minus the brake lever I'd guess.

Wondering what best option is:
-Keep all my bikes 11s and deal with alloy Athena's limited shifting in each direction
-Try and swap Athena levers onto Chorus 11s and live with black shifters but have 11s on all
-Go 10s and hope for Chours 10s alloy levers to show up on ebay, not worry about swapping wheels (I don't want to mess with changing cassettes)
-Something I have not thought about???


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

rplace13 said:


> Oh, so you can only swap out a brake lever!!??


There is some one on another forum (who and where, I don't recall without a search) who claims to have swapped both levers... it seemed legit. No clue what the level of difficulty would be.


----------



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

To swap the brake lever is easy:

-Push out the pin/swivel
-Replace lever 
-Push in the pin 

You can even buy the brake levers as spare parts, so you don't need to buy a whole shifter ( or alternatively just buy the shifting assembly separately )

The shifting lever is a part of the switching mechanism though and is held with a rivet that AFAIK is not simply replaceable but I guess if you have mechanic skills you could find a way to do it


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

The paddle shifter is part of a sub-assembly that needs to be changed as a whole.

The assembly can be seen by looking at the parts manual. On the Campy site. There are dissassembly videos online. I'm thinking you only need to do the front area dissassembly.


----------



## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Back on this, can't seem to find any of the 10s centaur alloy Ultra Shift with the new hood design (2010???) at a decent price. Bit the bullet and got a set of Athena 11s levers and will see if I can live with the Power Shift shifting short term...I think not.

So I am on a quest for a used set of Chorus 11s levers don't care if they are beat up since I'll put the Athena alloy parts on them. I think I can overcome the rivet issue or disassemble as necessary. 

This got me to thinking. Is there ANY difference between a Chorus and Athena 11s left shifter from a function point of view? If the click, travel, etc are the same I guess all I really need is a Chorus right "donor". Then I'd only have to convert the right and not both. What say you Campy experts? Don't care if the difference is only weight, but I do want them to look/function the same.

Funny that if you look at individual parts a single brake lever is in the $100 range and you can get an entire set of Athena shifters for ~155-170 from ribble depending on current discount. Guessing I might be able to sell the Athena body(s) and Chorus carbon levers on ebay and cover a good portion of my costs so I only end up with a net cost in the ball part of 1 set of levers.

Thoughts?


----------



## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Well I got the right side done and could not be happier with the results. Thought I could live with the left side, but no way. I can't believe they sell Athena "crippled" like that. Perhaps it is just what you are used to but after 10s R/SR bikes and converting most of them to 11s Record. I simply could not live with Power Shift. The thumb levers are way to small to start with but by the time you get to shifting it feels like a toy. The guts have a good bit of plastic too. If my first intro to Campy had been power shift Athena I don't think I'd be buying again. Sad for such a great company.

Anyway, thanks to all the helped me through this. It originally took me about 1.5 hours start to finish. Watching the video, worrying, making sure everything was just right. In the end the spring for the finger shifting part did not seat correctly so I had to take it all apart again, every single piece and put it together a second time. That took about 15 minutes. If I had to do it all over again I would not give it a second thought. Pretty simple.

Took it our for 25 today and shifter just fine...at least the right side did

Some pix if you are interested:


----------



## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Nice work!


----------



## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

This is the real end result...everyone likes bike pix, right?


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Not sure from your last post if you have worked on a left shifter yet. If not then I guess you already know the answer to your question



> Is there ANY difference between a Chorus and Athena 11s left shifter from a function point of view?


Which of course is - yes there is a substantial difference.


----------



## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Yea, I found out both levers are different. I figured I'd give the left/FD a try but after one ride I know I'll have to do it too. Lots of little parts, but not too difficult a task. Kind of fun to see inside. Anyone got a line on a US supplier with good prices for lever assemblies? Got the last one off of ebay from a seller who backed out on a project. 100% new but less than retail so that was a nice find. Guess I got time to wait if I want to see if another comes along.


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

google shopping search? https://www.google.com/search?q=cam...#pws=0&q=campagnolo+shift+lever+body&tbm=shop

I've considered picking up a few but I've been hesitant due to the issues in 2009 and the fact that I don't know the manufacturing date on any of these.


----------



## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

headloss, funny you mention that. I know there is a way to spot the differenced white vs gray/black round thingy the cable goes into, right? The video online showing how to overall the ultra shift lever clearly shows a white piece. Mine had a black one, the real kicker was my parts did not match the video 100% There was a difference in the numbers of washers and the order of some funky serrated convex/concave washers. I am certain I kept mine in the correct order as I took them apart.

What exactly was the 2009 issue/problem/"feature"?

I'd have to look and see if there is a mfg. date on the box the assembly came in. That might be an easy way to get sellers to tell you what "year" they are.


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

rplace13 said:


> headloss, funny you mention that. I know there is a way to spot the differenced white vs gray/black round thingy the cable goes into, right? The video online showing how to overall the ultra shift lever clearly shows a white piece. Mine had a black one, the real kicker was my parts did not match the video 100% There was a difference in the numbers of washers and the order of some funky serrated convex/concave washers. I am certain I kept mine in the correct order as I took them apart.
> 
> What exactly was the 2009 issue/problem/"feature"?
> 
> I'd have to look and see if there is a mfg. date on the box the assembly came in. That might be an easy way to get sellers to tell you what "year" they are.


I don't have a firm grasp of it, as I only made the switch to Campy a little over a year ago and wasn't even following along with these threads in 2009.

There were two separate issues, one with the 10 speed shifters which had to do with the feel/lever-response. Not sure what the problem with the 11 speed Ergos was off hand. I'm sure someone will chime in, if not, I'll go read the archives here and at the Paceline forum to get a better grasp.

Both issues are a concern to me as I have a few different builds in mind.

*edit* here's a good summary of the issue with 2009 Centaur if you want to read for curiosity's sake... I think it applies to all early Ultrashift Ergos 
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/centaur-10-shifting-issues-resolved-finally-205558.html
The problem established in that thread is primarily one of the cable guide/ pulley thing (coiling bushing?) was actually rubbing on the inside of the casing which explains why people were feeling friction in some of these shifters. That seems to also be supported by what Graeme from Velotech has said elsewhere regarding the need to shim/align. Julio also points out an assembly issue with a misplaced ball bearing.

The concave/domed washers seem to be a universal change that is visible in the 2010 tech docs on SR through Veloce. I presume to add tension. The replacement coiling bushing looks a litter wider as well so perhaps some of the "soft" shifting was corrected by this throughout the lineup. The thing that was unique to Centaur/Veloce seems to be the disc having shallow detents (whereas the domed washers and redesigned coiling bushing were changed across the entire lineup). 

There also seems to be a another, less common problem with the 2009 Centaur which multiple users attribute to cable-friction but in those cases Dave/C-40 insists that it's just a lubrication issue and the shifters need rebuilt and lubed.

So, yes... the issue with SR/Record/Chorus was the _coiling bushing_ which was a running change in Feb 2009 The early versions were a white or gray and the later were black. This had to do with cables fraying and additional friction in the shift cable. Not sure if this was an issue across the board from SR down to Veloce or not. Anyways, the part was EC-SR060... what I don't understand is that it's not really a bushing so much as a pulley and/or cable-guide of sorts. In addition to the individual part, there was a complete kit that was very similar to the kit offered for Centaur/Veloce. The SR kit was EC-SR110. One poster says to use EC-RE017 to repair the soft shift which was advice from a Campy rep, but that's a bit of an outlier. 

Whew... *wipes brow* That was a fun journey across half a decade and a handful of forums... at least I think I got it all straight in my head now. Thanks to all the amazing posters that have kept track of this stuff back when I was still riding my first hybrid to class (kudos to Julio, DaveS, oldpotatoe, Graeme, and others for giving me plenty to read). 

Besides that, what did I learn? That Campy will change their pdfs half way through the year (thanks internet archive!), that you can in fact without question replace the levers with alloy (thanks rplace!), that these parts that have disappeared off the face of the earth are likely still available from the right sources (Velotech, Branford, Vecchio's, etc.).

Here's the original schematic from early 2009


----------



## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

Hi Headloss

Yes I think that the changes you mentioned took place, but also there was the change to the detent disk mechanism itself:- the detents were deepened and reshaped to give a snappier shift. I think this was done across the range including Veloce, at least I have 2010 Veloce Ultra Shift levers with the newer, deeper, detent disks. Likewise there was a move to ball bearings inside the lever.

So I think the changes made were

- new cable bushing to prevent the cable head rubbing on the lever body
- new deeper detent disk profiles to give stronger clicks on shifting
- more or different domed washers/springs to press the the detent disks harder, again to give more click (????? I'm not sure about this one ????)
- lower end levers (Veloce and I assume Centaur) moved from a plastic bushing bearing to a ball bearing, presumably to reduce lever friction

My 2010 Veloce Ultra Shift levers have all these features in them, can't speak for others of course.

cheers now


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I was an early buyer of a Centaur Ultrashift set in late 2008, and ended up writing up my experience in the Campyonly site. The shifters just had no "feel" or clicks at all - just felt wrong.

I installed their upgrade kit which was available briefly in early 2010, and things improved a bit though I was never impressed. Campy made a second running change to the shifters and RD's a couple of years ago which firmed things up further.

Because my Centaurs were the rare alloy ultrashift I ended up ebaying them for three times what I'd paid 

The question raised above is how to identify different years of shifters in the aftermarket, and the problem is it's not really possible. If you have the shifter in your hand - then yes maybe.

There's no date code on a Campy label that I have ever found. Presumably the serial# would reveal that to the initiated, but no us plebs.

So there is somewhat of a risk buying from a non-dealer site.


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

CheapSkate said:


> Yes I think that the changes you mentioned took place, but also there was the change to the detent disk mechanism itself:- the detents were deepened and reshaped to give a snappier shift. I think this was done across the range including Veloce, at least I have 2010 Veloce Ultra Shift levers with the newer, deeper, detent disks. Likewise there was a move to ball bearings inside the lever.
> 
> So I think the changes made were
> 
> ...


Good summary. I had at some point mentioned the revised detents on the disc but I must have accidentally edited it out. I think that change only applied to Centaur and Veloce.

The cable bushing intrigues me, granted the change was made due to clearance issues and I'll note that the cable/coiling bushing is identical in all levers from SR to Veloce... that said, that Japanese company growtac has made a replacement bushing that changes the indexing to be compatible with Shimano. Apparently it's quite an important piece. 

The domed washer is what Peter (oldpotatoe) on the paceline forum suggested. If you compare the 2009 and 2010 drawings, you can see that a washer was added.

As far as the bushing vs ball bearing, C-40 swears that he can't feel a difference. Oddly, none of the tech drawings show a bushing. I've seen the side by side comparison (photos) though and there definitely was a bushing at one point which seems to just be an oddity. I even looked at a tech doc. for the entire line up that was published to the web in October of 2008 (I think I'm in love with the wayback machine) and the drawings look identical between all shifters with the exception of the 10 vs 11 speed parts. I'm starting to wonder if the original design was more of a prototype for powershift that was a limited production before the shifters were even released.

Anywho, I was just trying to get my thoughts all down on paper and put the better links in a thread for future reference. Now this thread has the images for rplace13's rebuild as well as a link to Julio's rebuild at CampyOnly in addition to a couple of other links that have good photos of the above differences and a few more rebuilds. I was mostly speaking out loud to myself, but appreciate the additional feedback!





bikerjulio said:


> The question raised above is how to identify different years of shifters in the aftermarket, and the problem is it's not really possible. If you have the shifter in your hand - then yes maybe.
> 
> There's no date code on a Campy label that I have ever found. Presumably the serial# would reveal that to the initiated, but no us plebs.
> 
> So there is somewhat of a risk buying from a non-dealer site.


Yeah, I think I'm just going to have to make sure any shop I order from has a good return policy. The Veloce/Centaur is a bit more tricky due to the detents, but the coiling-bushing and the shaft bushing vs bearing issue should be clearly identifiable without even opening it up. I'll probably just wait until I can find a pair of wrecked 10 speed ultrashifts on fleabay rather than chance it.

For the SR/Record/Chorus body, I'd be more concerned with the pulley and the two types seem to be clearly distinguishable... actually, iirc, Graeme said that they are now on a third version of the coiling bushing, fwiw. Seems like a funny piece to keep upgrading. Also as I said above, what floors me about that particular piece is that it can apparently be used to change indexing although that is not how it is used by Campy itself.


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

rplace13 said:


> This is the real end result...everyone likes bike pix, right?
> 
> View attachment 298208


Forgot to add, awesome! Great work and thank you again for sharing!!!


----------



## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

You can see what kind of detent disk it has by looking into the lever mechanism from "underneath". You might need a flashlight. The newer detent disk has "pointier" indentations. In fact you're looking at the outside of the detent disk so you see a mirror image of the indentations on the active side.

Appalling explanation but I hope you get my drift.

I found this photo of the new & old disks on my computer, you can see this difference if you look into the lever. But as BikerJulio says, you need the lever in your hand, or a very good photo of it.

View attachment 298283


(Can't attach photo, don't know why, anyway you can probably find it online somewhere)

PS I guess changing the diameter of the cable bushing would change the indexing, but I don't think it would be a great idea, IIRC Campag clicks are not uniformly spaced (they go something like 3 x 3 mm pulls then 3 x 2.5 mm pulls etc) whereas Shimano are, so you would never get a perfect match.

PPS love the bike, it's beautiful.


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

CheapSkate said:


> You can see what kind of detent disk it has by looking into the lever mechanism from "underneath". You might need a flashlight. The newer detent disk has "pointier" indentations. In fact you're looking at the outside of the detent disk so you see a mirror image of the indentations on the active side.
> 
> Appalling explanation but I hope you get my drift.
> 
> ...


1. I've seen a photo comparing... although I didn't notice one was pointer, I'll have to look again. I only have a set of older Ergos and a set of power-shift (so I can't look right now), but good to know it is visible. 
2. That's this site and vBulletin. I've found that 90% of the images I attempt to upload fail. If you edit the post and re-upload, there is a 100% chance it will work.
3. It's more of a curiosity; definitely a cleaner look than running a Jtek travel-agent with a Shimergo set up. Also notable because if someone were to file one down, they could seriously screw up indexing. You are correct about cable pulls, it's like that across the board for all brands although I've yet to find a pattern. 
Campy 11 individual pulls 

2.62.42.12.42.52.53.02.53.03.0


----------



## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

This thread has a photo, you can see the extra "pointy bits" on the new style disk. I think this gives better clicks on the finger lever, the ball bearings ride up the ramps until they meet the new pointy bits, then they have to overcome the pointy bits, probably by forcing the detent disks apart against the pressure of the dome washers. That gives a lot more click compared to the old style disk where the balls just ran up the ramps and over into the new "valley" without forcing the disks apart. (Guesswork). 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/inside-2009-ergopwer-154068.html

You can see the pointy bits (or their reverse on the outside of the disk) by looking into the lever with a flashlight.

Good luck with your search


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

This thread provides some nice comparison photo's of the improved parts. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/centaur-10-shifting-issues-resolved-finally-205558.html










there's a lot more on the link


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

bikerjulio said:


> This thread provides some nice comparison photo's of the improved parts.
> 
> [URL="http://http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/centaur-10-shifting-issues-resolved-finally-205558.html"[/URL]


I have that link buried somewhere up above too... but it's a good one and deserves the extra attention!

That said, your link is broken and needs a chiropractor.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

headloss said:


> I have that link buried somewhere up above too... but it's a good one and deserves the extra attention!
> 
> That said, your link is broken and needs a chiropractor.


was working on it as you posted.

try again.


----------

