# Sprinters: Do you pull on the pedals?



## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

I mostly race mountain bikes, have raced very little on the road. My interest in sprinting is more for fun - you know, county signs, club rides, etc. 

A few factors led to this thought, question... 
1. I injured my hamstring this spring (looooong healing process)
2. I occasionally ride a single speed (52/16) on club rides
3. My cleat broke last week.

I thought my ham' was ready for the single speed. It's not. I figured out why - it's not "pushing" a relatively big gear (Atlanta is hilly). It's "pulling" the big gear. If you've ever ridden a fixie or single speed, you know what I mean - on steep hills, you literally pull through the back stroke as you're pushing on the other. The next day, my ham' felt it. Okay, lesson learned. But it was also on that ride that I snapped off the (worn) tab on the front of a cleat. 

^Those^ got me thinking... Would a secondary benefit of riding a single speed be building power for sprinting? Could it work to train technique - that pull with the push stroke? Anyone ever heard of pros training on a SS? That always seems like the catch-all filter, e.g. "Are the Power Cranks any good?" "No. Or the pros would use them" ;-)


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

You want to make power wherever you can and that mean's 'pulling' on the pedals too. Regardless of your chosen discipline.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

locustfist said:


> You want to make power wherever you can and that mean's 'pulling' on the pedals too. Regardless of your chosen discipline.


just don't pull UP...if you can push forward/down and pull back some, that's great. if you pull up, you'll get scary really quickly. 

and riding a single speed is much much different from riding a fixed gear. they really don't compare at all.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Pedaling in circles will give you more power than just "stomping" on them., but that's not to say that "stomping" is bad. Most people can't spin while out of the saddle (track guys excepted), so the build to speed starts with a few stomps. 
The same goes for riding on the flats. When there is a surge in speed. many people will automatically stick it in a bigger gear, and jump out of the saddle. I'll often downshift to an easier gear, and spin up to a higher rpm. For me, jumping in a big gear takes a lot out of my legs, and I start each race with only a limited number of "bullets". For me, spinning up to speed is easier on my legs. This method is not for everyone. If you are a lightweight, you can probably stand for long periods on time, without wilting your legs.


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

OldZaskar said:


> I mostly race mountain bikes, have raced very little on the road. My interest in sprinting is more for fun - you know, county signs, club rides, etc.
> 
> A few factors led to this thought, question...
> 1. I injured my hamstring this spring (looooong healing process)
> ...


For the finish line sprint, up on the pedals and down.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

sometimes I use to hard of a gear training on the theory it builds strength. I really don't know if it hs helped me but I think it has.

No I've never heard of anyone training on a single speed unless it's because the weather is so crappy they dont want to take out the road bike. What's the point? Just don't shift if your really want to use only one gear.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

be careful about doing sprint workouts on a single speed. You might end up looking like the guy on the right (Forstemann, German track sprinter).


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

OldZaskar said:


> I mostly race mountain bikes, have raced very little on the road. My interest in sprinting is more for fun - you know, county signs, club rides, etc.
> 
> 2. I occasionally ride a single speed (52/16) on club rides


That's a huge gear for general riding.

For early season I'll do 46x18 and when I want to hammer with the guys, 46x17. I am mystified as to how you could ride around somewhere you call hilly in essentially a velodrome racing gear. I've won cat 4 track races on a gear smaller than that.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Yes. Not a sprinter, per se, but I pull. I definitely feel it in my hamstrings after a hard/fast ride, particularly after rides with attacks on multiple short climbs. 

Spinning circles is good for best efficiency and sustained power. Max power is mainly push down and pull up.

So how does Forstemann not break off his pedals, break his cranks, and bust his chain?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

looigi said:


> Yes. Not a sprinter, per se, but I pull. I definitely feel it in my hamstrings after a hard/fast ride, particularly after rides with attacks on multiple short climbs.
> 
> Spinning circles is good for best efficiency and sustained power. Max power is mainly push down and *pull up*.
> 
> So how does Forstemann not break off his pedals, break his cranks, and bust his chain?


c'mon...you don't really pull up, do you? that's pretty scary. 

Forstemann uses steel spindle pedals, shimano i think. double straps. dura ace track crank. pretty sure he's using an izumi V chain. insanely strong chain. i've raced entire seasons on one chain w/ zero measurable wear.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

For sprinting, I do put out more power pushing and pulling on the pedals, as verified with a PT. It's a difficult thing to coordinate but practice helps.

As far as general riding, I feel better riding with a higher rpm (95-100) and generally, don't really pull on the pedals, because of the pedal speed. Higher cadence helps develop the slow twitch side, which is good since I'm more naturally a fast-twitch guy.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

When I'm sprinting out of the saddle in a crit I'm just mashing down through the bottom of the stroke. I don't think I pull much at all. 

On the track it's a little different because I tend to stay seated.

Climbing involves some pulling.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

wtfbbq said:


> That's a huge gear for general riding.
> 
> For early season I'll do 46x18 and when I want to hammer with the guys, 46x17. I am mystified as to how you could ride around somewhere you call hilly in essentially a velodrome racing gear. I've won cat 4 track races on a gear smaller than that.


I was running a 52x18 but had difficulty on a couple sections of our club ride - a flat/slightly downhill stretch where we'll reach 32mph or so. With the 52x18, I'd occasionally have to drop left (out of the line) as I couldn't maintain the speed. With the 52x16, I'm able to comfortably and smoothly (don't want to disrupt the flow of the line) hang. Our 26 mile weekday loop has about 1,400' of elevation gain - so hilly... but not too bad. 

It's on the short, steep climbs that I find I'm really working my ham's as I pull through. Side note: Also feels like I'm about to rip the bar/stem off the bike... guess I'm getting some upper body workout too ;-)

Gratuitous bike shot:
(I have a nice Scott Addict SL, all carboned up with an SRM and other shiny things... still love riding my old $800 starter bike)


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

OldZaskar said:


> I was running a 52x18 but had difficulty on a couple sections of our club ride - a flat/slightly downhill stretch where we'll reach 32mph or so. With the 52x18, I'd occasionally have to drop left (out of the line) as I couldn't maintain the speed. With the 52x16, I'm able to comfortably and smoothly (don't want to disrupt the flow of the line) hang. Our 26 mile weekday loop has about 1,400' of elevation gain - so hilly... but not too bad.


On downhills, I will drop out of line and tuck. Then find a gap and someone to draft. Then I'll do the pedal/rest. I can stay with groups going downhill in the 30's without much difficulty. If the road is steeper, then there is no problem because my tuck is faster. All that is in either 42x18 or 42x17.

I'm about 180 and tucked, I go faster than just about anyone I ride with.

As an aside, there is a local Strava town line sprint segment that is slight downhill then up a little bump -- quarter mile total. For a while I had the KOM on my 42x17 -- 31mph for the full segment.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

wtfbbq said:


> On downhills, I will drop out of line and tuck. Then find a gap and someone to draft. Then I'll do the pedal/rest. I can stay with groups going downhill in the 30's without much difficulty. If the road is steeper, then there is no problem because my tuck is faster. All that is in either 42x18 or 42x17.


175 rpm (32 mph) is a bit more than I can muster - a helluva cadence; even in bursts. The 52x16 puts me at 126 at 32 mph - much more manageable, and I can stay in line and not be disruptive - that burst of high speed cadence, coast, burst, thing has got to be annoying to anyone behind me. 

If it were just down hill, the tuck thing would do the trick, but there's a stretch of generally downhill, kinda rolling, somewhat flat... Anyway, for about 2-3 miles, we're doing between 24 and 32 mph - and pedaling the whole (well, close) way.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

I have a decent sprint, but I've never really thought about how I pedal during an actual sprint. I do drills to help sprint better, but I've never taken the time in a sprint to analyze my leg motions.

So, in a recent local ride, in the sprint for the mailbox, I focused enough to take note of what I was doing.

Results: I pull up. Not just up, but push down, pull back, pull up, and push forward. However, while standing and sprinting this is not a perfect circular motion (as some suggest they use).


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## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> When I'm sprinting out of the saddle in a crit I'm just mashing down through the bottom of the stroke. I don't think I pull much at all.
> 
> .


this^^ but with the added note that I really work on leg speed as I think it matters almost as much as power. I see so many guys try to push big gears to the line and it doesn't seem to work well. If its a long run in, they blow up and if its short, they never get up to speed in time. So long as the gearing is right, learning to sprint with a single speed is fine, imo, since I am always very aware of my gearing PRIOR to the sprint getting on full gas since I know I wont be changing gears once it starts (thus, its effectively a single speed) track guys, well, obviously they've only got one gear.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

No one has said a word about using your upper body. I pull so hard on the drops I get bruises on my inner wrists. Upper body strength and knowing how to use it is key to a strong sprint.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Sonomasnap said:


> No one has said a word about using your upper body. I pull so hard on the drops I get bruises on my inner wrists. Upper body strength and knowing how to use it is key to a strong sprint.


pssst.... see post #9 ;-) Now #10


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## jmal (Jun 2, 2012)

I don't race road (though I do race MTB), but I learned years ago that you can't really pull up despite what it feels like you are doing in the stroke. Also, if you have ever really been pulling up on the pedals and you hit a bump, even a small one, your back wheel bounces like crazy. It is not good for bike control. Lastly, for those that think they are pulling up, when over the bars in a full sprint, what you perceive as being up may really only be the bottom of the stroke.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> be careful about doing sprint workouts on a single speed. You might end up looking like the guy on the right (Forstemann, German track sprinter).


"Please pass the human growth hormone. . . "


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## RoadrunnerLXXI (Jun 3, 2012)

Looks like he's carrying some saddle bags. I always push/pull on the pedals for maximum efficiency, regardless if I am sprinting or not. It's just good practice.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

jmal said:


> I don't race road (though I do race MTB), but I learned years ago that you can't really pull up despite what it feels like you are doing in the stroke. Also, if you have ever really been pulling up on the pedals and you hit a bump, even a small one, your back wheel bounces like crazy. It is not good for bike control. Lastly, for those that think they are pulling up, when over the bars in a full sprint, what you perceive as being up may really only be the bottom of the stroke.


^ this ^ i've raced against a bunch of guys that obviously 'pull FORWARD' on the pedals in out-of-the-saddle sprints. they're easy to spot. no one will sprint next to them, and their rear wheels are all over the place. they probably think they're pulling up, if i had to guess.
push FORWARD and pull BACK...but you really shouldn't pull UP...that just hacks up what could be a nice pedal stroke.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Not sure about my sprint, but I KNOW I pull up on the single speed on steep climbs...
- When I built a neighborhood bike with, platform pedals and too much gear, it was very hard to keep my feet on the pedals on the back stroke - I was pulling off the pedal
- Last week, I broke my Look cleat - snapped the tab off the front. It was fine on the flats, but kept coming unclipped on any climb once it broke. (since replaced)

^That^ got me paying attention to my stroke on the SS - no doubt, on slow, steep climbs, I am pulling hard up on the back stroke as I'm pushing down on the front. It's the full-body grind - even my shoulders are into it, e.g. lots of upper body rotation, pulling on the bars, etc. NOT something that works for those long mountain climbs ;-)


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

OldZaskar said:


> 175 rpm (32 mph) is a bit more than I can muster - a helluva cadence; even in bursts. The 52x16 puts me at 126 at 32 mph - much more manageable, and I can stay in line and not be disruptive - that burst of high speed cadence, coast, burst, thing has got to be annoying to anyone behind me.
> 
> If it were just down hill, the tuck thing would do the trick, but there's a stretch of generally downhill, kinda rolling, somewhat flat... Anyway, for about 2-3 miles, we're doing between 24 and 32 mph - and pedaling the whole (well, close) way.


I admit that all groups and rides are different so my experiences may not track with yours. However, I'll just leave you with these nuggets ...

I race SS cyclocross and short track mtb. When choosing a gear for a race, I consider where I'll spend most of my time and gear for that. Hilly races I gear down. Flat races I gear up. There is a really flat race I did last year and I ran 42x18 (standard gear) and I'm torn about running 42x17 this year. There is a quarter mile of flat hard pack and that was really tough on the 42x18. However, the rest of the course was spot on with that gearing.

A friend bought an All City nature Boy for commuting. It comes with a 42x16 which is about like the 42x18 I like for general road riding. After a couple outings, he told me he maxed out at 19mph. I told him he needed to learn how to spin. He learned how to spin in a couple weeks and now is as fast as he wants to be on that bike.

I don't have any fancy doo-dads telling me speed and cadence so I don't freak myself out with how fast my cadence needs to be to go some speed. If you give things a chance, it's amazing how you can adapt to them. You say you average 24-30 for 2 miles. So you are choosing your gearing for less than 6 minutes of your ride.


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## Stuart B (Feb 26, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> ^ this ^ i've raced against a bunch of guys that obviously 'pull FORWARD' on the pedals in out-of-the-saddle sprints. they're easy to spot. no one will sprint next to them, and their rear wheels are all over the place. they probably think they're pulling up, if i had to guess.
> push FORWARD and pull BACK...but you really shouldn't pull UP...that just hacks up what could be a nice pedal stroke.


Why? I don't understand.

When I used to ride single speed road (before I smashed my knee up in an accident), on a 48/19 there were points on my commute that my weight on the front pedal alone wasn't enough to make the bike go up hill.

I also find pushing and pulling much smoother on full sus mtb than simply jumping on the front pedal rear suspension bob wise.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

You can pull up on the bars as you're pushing down on the pedals, but that effort is simply a reaction force to the force exerted by your legs and does no work, meaning the effort of the arms generates no power. Pulling up with your leg does generate power. 

Watch pro sprinters and you'll see smoothness is not a criterion they trouble themselves about. And I guarantee you they pull up.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

wtfbbq said:


> You say you average 24-30 for 2 miles. So you are choosing your gearing for less than 6 minutes of your ride.


Airplanes have landing gear - for 30 seconds of a 10-hour flight. Seriously though... 52x16 is not some monster gear - it's like your big ring and the middle of your cassette. The bike is comfortable on 90% of the ride - I grunt a few hills, so I can maintain on that fast section. Not maintaining on that fast section means falling off the group.... then chasing them down solo.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Stuart B said:


> Why? I don't understand.
> 
> When I used to ride single speed road (before I smashed my knee up in an accident), on a 48/19 there were points on my commute that my weight on the front pedal alone wasn't enough to make the bike go up hill.
> 
> I also find pushing and pulling much smoother on full sus mtb than simply jumping on the front pedal rear suspension bob wise.


because...you're probably pulling forward too. it's very rare that anyone really, truly, pulls UP on the pedals. it makes no sense. you don't need to be putting power to both pedals during the full 360* rotation. it's just not needed. it's very hard to be smooth if you try to pull up. there's a reason why every 'how to pedal your bike' article basically says push forward/pull back. 
at slow climbing cadence, you are probably pretty close to pulling up. during a sprint...which was the point of this thread...no. you do NOT want to pull UP during a sprint. i have seen this kind of pedalling cause crashes. not to mention you'll put more of your power to the ground doing it the right way.


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## heedongyee (Nov 29, 2010)

OldZaskar said:


>


Beautiful.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Pedaling in circles will give you more power than just "stomping" on them., but that's not to say that "stomping" is bad. Most people can't spin while out of the saddle (track guys excepted), so the build to speed starts with a few stomps.
> The same goes for riding on the flats. When there is a surge in speed. many people will automatically stick it in a bigger gear, and jump out of the saddle. I'll often downshift to an easier gear, and spin up to a higher rpm. For me, jumping in a big gear takes a lot out of my legs, and I start each race with only a limited number of "bullets". For me, spinning up to speed is easier on my legs. This method is not for everyone. If you are a lightweight, you can probably stand for long periods on time, without wilting your legs.


I have been away from this site for many years, and it's cool to see some of the same posters still here. 

As for the question, if you ever find yourself doing an especially technical crit that has super sharp, stop/start 180 degree turns, watch how fresh the guys are that shift into an easy gear and spin out of the corners vs. those guys who stand and mash out of each one at the end of the race. Usually, it's the guys who spun from all the corners that end up having the power to attack the finish line at the end. 

And no matter your weight, focusing on spinning circles is huge in cycling. If you're pedaling squares then you're at a disadvantage in most situations.


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