# Women Specific Geometry



## Killroy (Feb 9, 2006)

My girlfriend and I went looking for a new women specific bike and should not find a Specialized that fit. I’m skeptical on Women Specific Geometry. Why are the head tubes so long?

My girlfriend bought her first road bike, a 54 cm Fuji Newest, many years ago and she tells me that it hurts her back, and she feels like she is reaching too much. I suspect that the bike is one size too big, so we are looking into new bikes and pondering Women Specific Geometry. 

Today we tried a Women’s Specialized Dolce in size 51 cm (51.5 cm horizontal top tube) and 54 cm (53.2 cm top tube). The 51 seemed way too small and the 54 cm too big. 

I suspect that she needs a 53 cm top tube (I don’t know why they measure seat tubes at all with compact frames because stand over should not be a issue anymore). The 54 cm Dolce has a 53.2 cm top tube, but its head tube is really long at 165 mm. I noticed that the similar sized (53 cm) Motobecane Gigi has a 17.0 cm head tube. Why are the long head tubes so long? That is what the was making the 54 cm Dolce seem so big. The handle bars seem higher than the seat and I am wondering why the designers would have such a un-aerodynamic position for women. 

I know that you can swap longer and shorter stems and remove spacers change the angle, but the frame geometry seemed wrong. I think we are going to try a standard bike after all this. 

Another thing is that this girl has a belly roll (overweight) (>170 5’6”). Is that why she is having fit problems because she wants her handle bars elevate so that her legs don’t bump her belly? Is that why she is rounding her shoulders on her Fuji?

Here are here measurements:
Height:	65.90 in
Sternum Notch:	55.75 in
Inseam Length:	32.40 in
Arm Length:	23.5 in
Shoulder Width:	15.75 in
Flexiblity:	7
Weight:	172.00 lbs
Foot Size:	8.00 USWomans

Wrench Science Recommends: 

Frame Size center-to-center: 53 cm
Frame Size center-to-top: 55 cm 
Overall Reach: 63.5 cm
Saddle Height: 72.67 cm 
Handlebar Width: 40 cm


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Have you tried moving her saddle forward with the Fuji? 

Has she tried the Orbea Diva? IMO it is a great women specific frame and it comes with a 52.5cm top tube.


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## Killroy (Feb 9, 2006)

il sogno said:


> Have you tried moving her saddle forward with the Fuji?
> 
> Has she tried the Orbea Diva? IMO it is a great women specific frame and it comes with a 52.5cm top tube.


The Fuji is set up for "Knee Over Pedal" and there is only about 7 mm left. She is getting a new bike anyway.


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## Jen_I_Am (Mar 30, 2010)

I ordered the Orbea Onix (Dama TLT) It's a little more expensive than the Dolce, but I love the colour and it fit me much better than my old Trek Pilot 6.2 WSD.


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## Killroy (Feb 9, 2006)

After reviewing the geometry, it seems like Specialized and Motobecane are going for too of a upright position with a long headtube.


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## R3 Sloth (Mar 25, 2010)

Kilroy,

I'm not too familiar with women's specific geometry since my wife dosen't ride but I found this piece from Eurobike pretty interesting. 

http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/bikes/women/

Food for thought.


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

Almost makes sense till you listen between the lines. On one hand Vroomen says men and women are the same, on the other he says they provide different fit kits for gender differences. 
Actually every single anthropometric study has found quite significant commonalities in the differences between men and women. Vroomen slides past this with his brief mention of shoulder width, but neglects to mention all the other significant elements - arm length, pelvic width and shape (he says there are "small" touch point differences between men and women!!!!), hand size, strength, weight-for-height, foot shape, and yes, the statistical difference in leg-to-torso length for men and women of the same height and the statistical differences in average height between the sexes.
Really sounds more like a smaller manufacturer trying to justify their lack of investment in producing gender-specific products.


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## Killroy (Feb 9, 2006)

cyclequip said:


> Almost makes sense till you listen between the lines. On one hand Vroomen says men and women are the same, on the other he says they provide different fit kits for gender differences.
> Actually every single anthropometric study has found quite significant commonalities in the differences between men and women. Vroomen slides past this with his brief mention of shoulder width, but neglects to mention all the other significant elements - arm length, pelvic width and shape (he says there are "small" touch point differences between men and women!!!!), hand size, strength, weight-for-height, foot shape, and yes, the statistical difference in leg-to-torso length for men and women of the same height and the statistical differences in average height between the sexes.
> Really sounds more like a smaller manufacturer trying to justify their lack of investment in producing gender-specific products.


I would like to see the data on the average female detentions (5-'4") to the average 5'-4" male, before claiming that Vroomen is wrong. They are probably a little bit different, but maybe Vroomen sees that the differences are small enough to be within the adjustment of a standard bike frame which can be 2-3" for reach, so he calles them the same. From a business perspective, making WS bikes is added complications, so I could see Vroomens motivation.


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## CougarTrek (May 5, 2008)

The longer headtube has nothing to do with the WSD geometry. They are doing that on men's bikes now as well to provide a different fit on their more "comfort" oriented road bikes for newer cyclists, those that may have flexibility/medical issues, and endurance riders that don't want much if any saddle to bar drop.

The Dolce is the Specialized WSD version of this. A Ruby would have had a headtube more in line with what you are wanting.

It's like comparing a Tarmac and a Roubnix...

The huge size gap is because, well, you made a huge size jump! 51-54 is a big gap, and if specialized doesn't have anything in that gap in her price range then simply look elsewhere (or yea, see if the smallest men's size sits in that gap...).

As for WSD vs. mens and benefits thereof, personally I hate that it's called WSD. It's basically a reach to leg length proportion difference. Some people are shorter torsoed and longer legged regardless of gender and they do better on WSD bikes, but many women don't "need" one. Yes, there are people on the edges of the bell curve that benefit greatly from different proportions than average being available, so I think it is more than a marketing gimic.

Anyway, it sounds to me like you are trying to make your girlfriend fit to a bike like an avid or even pro racer/enthusiast would fit to a bike and I'm not convinced from your description that's what she wants or what's best for her. If she's just starting and not in great shape she doesn't need to be "aero" and she doesn't need (and probably can't comfortably tolerate) much if any saddle to bar drop. Something like the Dolce (maybe in a different brand with an intermediate ETT, or in a men's/unisex version) with the taller headtube and more comfort oriented geometry probably is what she needs/wants (if it's even a drop bar road bike she needs/wants); I doubt very seriously it will hurt her position by not allowing her to get low enough. Plenty of speed and performance, but much easier for her to set up for comfort while she builds up her skills and endurance and flexibility (if she ever even wants to get that aero position; not everyone does).


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

Actually Dolce and Ruby both have "endurance" geometry with a longer head tube. The Spesh Amira has the more aggressive geometry. And some companies do more than pay lip service to WSD. They do so because they push the envelope. If you are a manufacturer avoiding complication you are also avoiding innovation. 

And I learned to fit the bike to the rider and not the other way around. When you do this for any length of time you begin to appreciate things like WSD.


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