# Looks like Campagnolo beats Shimano again



## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Campy Record EPS will be around the same price as Di2 and lighter!

Quick Look: Campagnolo

Also:


> Another surprise is that that with a single push, you can shift through all 11 gears up or down; the system reacts to how long you hold a button down. Holding it down for 1.5 seconds goes through all 11 gears, while you can shift, say, three gears in a go by holding it down less than half a second.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Wants!


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Ive never once had to dump from one end of the cassette to the other. Not once. Not even on my MTB do I need to drop across the whole cassette in one shot.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

It's oh so convenient when doing maintenance.

Campagnolo's bringing back the functionality they had with 8,9 and 10 speed Ergopower, where you could dump to the smallest cog in one thumb throw. On 11 speed Ultra Shift you have to do two throws. How many is that with SRAmano? 9? Moahahahaha!
And if i get it right mechanics can now downshift across the cassette with a single push.

What's more: There's tactility!

Campagnolo Launch Electronic EPS Groups - BikeRadar


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Shimano has Ultegra Di2...OEM = Shimano win


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

We don't care about OEM. We buy frames, groups, wheels, and the other stuff needed to finish a bike properly.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

DA 11 speed Di2 due out in 2012.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

RkFast said:


> Ive never once had to dump from one end of the cassette to the other. Not once. Not even on my MTB do I need to drop across the whole cassette in one shot.


I'm with you. Who does that? Imagine driving your 6 speed manual car and shifting from 1st to 6th or 6th to 1st.... See how well that works out. The cool thing about having 10 or 11 gears is that it's sequential! Why skip perfectly good gears? Learn how to use your gears. It's much more fun!


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

RkFast said:


> Ive never once had to dump from one end of the cassette to the other. Not once. Not even on my MTB do I need to drop across the whole cassette in one shot.


Feel free to file that under "feature that many others want but RkFast doesn't want." 

I personally love the ability to dump more than one gear at a time.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

*Late to market*

This will not be a big threat to Shimano but will offer the loyal Campy customers an electronic option and will help Campy win back some SRAM customers imo. 

Compared to Shimano they are very late getting to the market so they need to be better performance in a meaningful way or better value. With Shimano bringing out the electronic Ultegra, Campy are on the back foot with more value conscious buyers and in the large OEM market. In the upgrade market, I doubt if a small weight saving is a meaningful performance advantage. 

Meanwhile where is SRAM in all this? They have gone deep to develop, launch and market a lot of product and their competitors are raising the bar again.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

Systems are not identical, Campy motor and worm gear, Shimano stepping motor. Different mechanisms. I feel cable does fine. Look, bicycle has gone from skilled craftmen to high tech materials. Personally I take skilled craftsman building bikes, steel frames, as opposed to carbon, and the same for the components. Cable works fine, the average joe will see no difference but look at what I got. We're talking very marginal gains if any. So you can shift under load, big deal. Never has been a problem to now, right or bothered you. Shimano and Campy don't even make the motors they source other companies. So, is it really Campy or Shimano or not.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

gofast2wheeler said:


> Systems are not identical, Campy motor and worm gear, Shimano stepping motor. Different mechanisms. I feel cable does fine. Look, bicycle has gone from skilled craftmen to high tech materials. Personally I take skilled craftsman building bikes, steel frames, as opposed to carbon, and the same for the components. Cable works fine, the average joe will see no difference but look at what I got. We're talking very marginal gains if any. So you can shift under load, big deal. Never has been a problem to now, right or bothered you. Shimano and Campy don't even make the motors they source other companies. So, is it really Campy or Shimano or not.


Newsflash-very few manufacturers make everything they offer, do you honestly believe GM makes every part of an automobile (they spec'd Honda engines before in a Saturn Vue)? They control the engineering on the major parts of their automobiles and I suspect both Shimano and Campy's approach is the same with regards to their electronic offerings...


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

orange_julius said:


> Feel free to file that under "feature that many others want but RkFast doesn't want."
> 
> I personally love the ability to dump more than one gear at a time.


Somewhere between 9 and 2 there is a happy medium. Find it, young grasshopper.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

A course they don't, they just cast the major parts for it to be called a honda or GM motor. Thats what part suppliers are for. But electric motors are completely different to cable systems. Come on now, engineer designing rear cable derailer knows how to design mini electric motor, servo. Doesn't happen. Out sourcing. Mechanical vs. electrical engineer not equal.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

gofast2wheeler said:


> A course they don't, they just cast the major parts for it to be called a honda or GM motor. Thats what part suppliers are for. But electric motors are completely different to cable systems. Come on now, engineer designing rear cable derailer knows how to design mini electric motor, servo. Doesn't happen. Out sourcing. Mechanical vs. electrical engineer not equal.


And you know firsthand they didn't hire some EEs? I like people that speak in absolutes and don't know what they are talking about... Fairwheel Bicycle hired a EE to reprogram Di2 for mtb use, but Campy can't hire any EEs right?


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Chainstay said:


> Meanwhile where is SRAM in all this?


I'd be very surprised if SRAM doesn't have a fully functional electric group of their own.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

$5 says Sram's electric will accommodate mechanical and hydraulic brakes. Oh and it will cost less and be lighter.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

BunnV said:


> I'm with you. Who does that? Imagine driving your 6 speed manual car and shifting from 1st to 6th or 6th to 1st.... See how well that works out. The cool thing about having 10 or 11 gears is that it's sequential! Why skip perfectly good gears? Learn how to use your gears. It's much more fun!


I've gone from 5th to 1st after slamming on my brakes.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I'd be very surprised if SRAM doesn't have a fully functional electric group of their own.


If SRAM have something in development then they don't have it yet. I have not heard of anything being tested with pro teams. Did I miss something?


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

IMO...Sram will go lightweight. Opposite of the electronic stuff. Who knows...they could be testing now. :aureola:

You would never know since they already have a platform to work off.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

> _If SRAM have something in development then they don't have it yet. I have not heard of anything being tested with pro teams. Did I miss something? _


SRAM have perfected the non-floppy brake lever and the gear shift paddle that you don't need your thumb for. All at weights Shimano and Campy cannot match, even for budget SRAM users. Kudos. :thumbsup:


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

RkFast said:


> Ive never once had to dump from one end of the cassette to the other. Not once. Not even on my MTB do I need to drop across the whole cassette in one shot.


I need to shift five cogs at a time many times every day I'm on my bike because that's what it takes to get to the next gear following a (frequent) ring shift on 50-34 rings with tight cogs.

All at once (like with first generation ergo levers) is only nice for pulling the rear wheel which is thankfully infrequent.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Campy Record EPS will be around the same price as Di2 and lighter!
> 
> Quick Look: Campagnolo
> 
> Also:


I am the king of 'the sweep the cog thing is silly' when it comes to mechanical groups, but here, I am of a different mind - and specifically because of Di2's poor execution. 

If you want to shift multiples on Di2, you have to click them off one at at time. No big deal, and the way I think is best to operate, since there's zero opportunity to get more or fewer than intended. However, in the Di2 implementation, you have to ...wait... for each one to complete before you can even order the next. If you could just tap off the 3 or 4 that you needed, and let the mech and chain catch up as they will, it'd be a perfect system. 

It seems like it'd be a relatively easy firmware upgrade, but perhaps not. Until Shimano fixes that one flaw, it sounds like Campag might have the edge. Of course, that's said having ridden Di2 and not even having laid eyes on anything beyond a picture of prototype Campag, so we'll see how good or bad it ends up being in practice. I could see them having a pause between 'one' and 'more than one' that would require judgement and experience to get the intended number of shifts, or one that would require that you'd have to sit there pressing the lever until it finally gets around to moving the chain to where you want to be.

Either of those options would be lesser (in my estimation) to any competent cable-driven system, as Di2 is today. 

The 'killer app' for electronic shifting is that it will eventually allow for closer cog spacing than a cable system can reliably actuate. That presumes that more is necessarily better, and that the rest of the components (chain, cogs) can be made fine enough and still retain reasonable durability.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

> _I could see them having a pause between 'one' and 'more than one' that would require judgement and experience to get the intended number of shifts_


Yes, I can see this causing a few issues until people get the hang of it... Think of the trauma getting used to double-tap caused for some riders!


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

*chuckle*

The one thing I cannot get used to is the STI. I brift! Is Di2 the same?
Double tap is ok. Brifting impossible.
As mentioned the long thumb lever on Ergopower EPS is an ergonomic upgrade. I bet Campagnolo would have done the same to mech. Ergopower if there was room for it.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> I've gone from 5th to 1st after slamming on my brakes.


If I could downshift 5 gears, that might be useful for road.

On mtb, that big jump to a big gear is useful. Sometimes you crest a steep pitch and need to jump into a big gear to descend right away. That happens much, much less often on the road.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

danl1 said:


> The 'killer app' for electronic shifting is that it will eventually allow for closer cog spacing than a cable system can reliably actuate. That presumes that more is necessarily better, and that the rest of the components (chain, cogs) can be made fine enough and still retain reasonable durability.


I agree. I think there will be continue development here to the point where the let's say 15 speed set up is electronic only. Mechs just wouldn't be able to do it. What's funny is that you see people carry a tube or two now a days. With road tubeless and electronic shifting coming around, some may nix the 2nd tube for an extra battery. Maybe not a big main size, but a back up size that will get you home.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

qatarbhoy said:


> SRAM have perfected the non-floppy brake lever and the gear shift paddle that you don't need your thumb for.


Maybe for YOU. I hate Double tap and would NEVER use it. Owe, I am a SRAM fan on the MTB side. Love my GripShift and the ability to go 8 cogs up or down on a single twist.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

kbwh said:


> We don't care about OEM. We buy frames, groups, wheels, and the other stuff needed to finish a bike properly.


Outside of wheels, if OEM isn't good enough, then what's the point in buying? You're essentially saying that you're paying for something you really don't want. OEM matters more than anything. That's where the money's at in the industry. I doubt the minute number of people that build really even put much of a dent in the market. This is easy for me to say because I am one of those people.... I have a Felt FA and F1 Sprint- both of which were bought as framesets. Choosing what you want is fun but it also costs more to go that way. I'm glad I did, but I can't deny that the OEM market is where it's at in the bike industry. 500,000 people buying components is nothing compared to multi-millions being purchased by manufacturers. That has to say something.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Point is that I don't buy my bikes off the shelf.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

orange_julius said:


> Feel free to file that under "feature that many others want but RkFast doesn't want."
> 
> I personally love the ability to dump more than one gear at a time.


In RkFast's defense, just because you can do it doesn't make it any better. If it's never used, it's redundant. I don't know any Campy riders that dump their chains. Great, it can be done, but that's like spending a $1,000 extra for a sunroof on your car because you can let in the sun and added ventilation but you never use it.....redundant.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Some times redundancy is bad and sometimes it's not; For the sake of the argument.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Mr. Scary said:


> Newsflash-very few manufacturers make everything they offer, do you honestly believe GM makes every part of an automobile (they spec'd Honda engines before in a Saturn Vue)? They control the engineering on the major parts of their automobiles and I suspect both Shimano and Campy's approach is the same with regards to their electronic offerings...


+1......Let's not forget that GM's much loved diesel Duramax diesel engine block used in their trucks is made by Isuzu. Still, Mr. Scary said, none of these companies make their own stuff. That is common practice in pretty much every field.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Chainstay said:


> If SRAM have something in development then they don't have it yet. I have not heard of anything being tested with pro teams. Did I miss something?


Right now, SRAM doesn't need to. they are climbing agressively through the marketshare ranks. While I am a DA guy, I am beyond impressed with SRAM. They have only been established firmly in road bike groups for a little less than 8 years and they are moving up growing like a wildfire. They have some amazing offerings and Shimano and Campy can't even compete in weight and pricing. Style points have to go to Campy however, but I still love my Dura Ace. I want to be buried with a Dura Ace shifter in each hand.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

kbwh said:


> Point is that I don't buy my bikes off the shelf.


The point is, most people do. That's a fact and usually much cheaper.

Shimano and SRAM will always dominate the OEM market, as Campy, does not want to compete and maybe can't.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

ziscwg said:


> If I could downshift 5 gears, that might be useful for road.
> 
> On mtb, that big jump to a big gear is useful. Sometimes you crest a steep pitch and need to jump into a big gear to descend right away. That happens much, much less often on the road.


You are not riding enough hills


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## maxxevv (Jan 18, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> You are not riding enough hills


I have to agree ! :thumbsup:

Not that I do climb much of any hills to start with but I always watch intently of any video close up I can get of the professional riders doing the biggest climbs, hoping to pick up some technical pointers/hints on doing it 'correct'. But honestly, I have never seen any of them doing such a thing as dumping their gears in any riding scenario.

If those guys racing grand tours don't do it, I don't see how recreational riders like most of us actually needing it.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

terbennett said:


> OEM matters more than anything. That's where the money's at in the industry. ...<snip>.....I'm glad I did, but I can't deny that the OEM market is where it's at in the bike industry. 500,000 people buying components is nothing compared to multi-millions being purchased by manufacturers. That has to say something.


It only matters if that's where the company focus is at, otherwise it doesn't matter one bit. Campy doesn't care about selling millions of components. So basicially what it says is that Campy has it's own way of doing business.


> Given a choice between his own beliefs and the fortune to be made in the mass market, Tullio turned his back on the fortune. By the end of the 1970s, Campagnolo had abandoned all but the pro racing and very top luxury portion of the specialty retail market to Shimano and Suntour, Japanese companies that were happy to scale up production to meet the demand for less expensive chains, sprockets, and derailleurs.


 From The Italian Job</snip>


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

terbennett said:


> In RkFast's defense, just because you can do it doesn't make it any better. If it's never used, it's redundant. I don't know any Campy riders that dump their chains. Great, it can be done, but that's like spending a $1,000 extra for a sunroof on your car because you can let in the sun and added ventilation but you never use it.....redundant.


Even worse, thinking because the never-used sunroof can be opened with one crank, you're enjoying some huge benefit over a sunroof that takes two cranks to open.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

> _Originally Posted by qatarbhoy View Post
> SRAM have perfected the non-floppy brake lever and the gear shift paddle that you don't need your thumb for._





> _Originally Posted by DIRT BOY: Maybe for YOU. I hate Double tap and would NEVER use it. Owe, I am a SRAM fan on the MTB side. Love my GripShift and the ability to go 8 cogs up or down on a single twist. _


Hmm, I didn't mention double tap. I mentioned that SRAM brake levers don't flop around (= A Good Thing) and that you don't need your thumbs to shift (= A Good Thing, notably when sprinting in the drops). Even Campy-fan Leonard Zinn mentioned how using Campy shifters compromises his 'cross riding because he has to ride on the 'wrong' place on the bars (for him anyway).

Of course, if you double-tap with your thumb, that may explain the issues you're having. :thumbsup:


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

maxxevv said:


> I have to agree ! :thumbsup:
> 
> Not that I do climb much of any hills to start with but I always watch intently of any video close up I can get of the professional riders doing the biggest climbs, hoping to pick up some technical pointers/hints on doing it 'correct'. But honestly, I have never seen any of them doing such a thing as dumping their gears in any riding scenario.
> 
> If those guys racing grand tours don't do it, I don't see how recreational riders like most of us actually needing it.


Salsa wrote hills, not mountains. Where I grew up there are roads that force you to shift between chain rings every two minutes. That's a lot of brifting or double tapping.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

Read LZ's review. Helped with the key points for me. DI2 had some plus in his fd s to big ring jump. He did like camp long toss up and down the cass. Interesting like of the "feel" of the camp button depression. Other items of observation from him...


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

The LZ review doesn't make me want EPS less, to put it mildly. But by God he rides a big frame!


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

kbwh said:


> Salsa wrote hills, not mountains. Where I grew up there are roads that forces you to shift between chain rings every two minutes. That's a lot of brifting or double tapping.


Exactly.

Over here we have a lot of undulating hills. Not of the "rolling" hills kind, but those with high gradient slopes that have you on a small gear when you reach the crest and then suddenly you have a descent and the again a climb. There you actually thank you have the thumb shifters and this repeats many times per ride.

Climbing a steady mountain pass is another thing,


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## Oasisbill (Jan 15, 2011)

BunnV said:


> I'm with you. Who does that? Imagine driving your 6 speed manual car and shifting from 1st to 6th or 6th to 1st.... See how well that works out. The cool thing about having 10 or 11 gears is that it's sequential! Why skip perfectly good gears? Learn how to use your gears. It's much more fun!


Taking your rear wheel off in a race is much easier on your smallest rear cog, so 1 - 11 could be very practical and handy for this, and for setting outer limits - not so much for riding though.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Campagnolo Super Record EPS Electronic Transmission Â€“ First Ride Review | Cyclingnews.com


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## CliveDS (Oct 7, 2009)

Bikerumor has a good article.

Campagnolo Unveils EPS Electronic Drivetrains for Record & Super Record! - Bike Rumor

Also I just got a communication from Campagnolo North America about who will be able to sell the parts and they are saying you need to be a pro shop and have gone through a certification course.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

terbennett said:


> Right now, SRAM doesn't need to. they are climbing agressively through the marketshare ranks. While I am a DA guy, I am beyond impressed with SRAM. They have only been established firmly in road bike groups for a little less than 8 years and they are moving up growing like a wildfire. *They have some amazing offerings and Shimano and Campy can't even compete in weight and pricing.* Style points have to go to Campy however, but I still love my Dura Ace. I want to be buried with a Dura Ace shifter in each hand.


Maybe you missed this...

*CYCLING+, March 2011 issue*

Price & Total Gruppo Weight

Shimano 105: 609.93GBP, 2606g
SRAM Apex: 588.94GBP, 2089g
Campag Centaur: 600.93GBP, 2017g

Upshift Speed in seconds, Front, Rear

Shimano 105: .91, .96
SRAM Apex: .89, 1.02
Campag Centaur: .89, .89

Downshift Speed in seconds, Front, Rear

Shimano 105: 1.12, .84
SRAM Apex: 1.48, .74
Campag Centaur: 1.02, .72

So, Price is right in the ballpark, with lighter Weight and Faster shifts. Can't compete? Really?


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

Those prices look odd to me - Ribble's website (for example) shows Apex as significantly cheaper than 105/Centaur, and Rival being marginally cheaper than those Shimano/Campy groups. 

I don't think many people see Apex as equivalent to 105/Centaur - it's closer to Veloce territory, and ahead of Tiagra.

Here are current weights for each manufacturer's groups:

Component Weights - Total Cycling


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Pricing:

Shimano: Madison's
Campagnolo: Chicken Cycles
SRAM: Saddleback

Not sure why they picked the ones that they did, but these are all UK sales outfits. If the magazine was March of this year, the actual testing was maybe somewhere from last December to February. I assume that all of the manufacturers reserve the right to change specifications without notice.

By the way, it's really interesting that Dura Ace is only slightly lighter than Athena. Rival is also heavier than Athena. Yeah, Campagnolo can't compete...


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

very impressive. However if I just upgraded to Record EPS shifters and derailleurs over my chorus 11 ones, I would still have the same weight bike, just no cables and precise shifting. Although my chorus 11 shifts perfectly to me. I think maybe 2013 i would consider changing over, I learned my lesson about being an early adopter with SRAM Red and the first gen campy 11 speed.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

*Loyal supporters*

There are definitely a lot of cyclists that are strong and loyal supporters of either Campy, Shimano and SRAM. Some actually scorn the other manufacturers. It's pretty apparent from many of the posts. 

For a manufacturer to gain market share they of course need to keep their loyal supporters happy but it's more important to win over the 30% (guess) of buyers who will switch for other reasons like value, weight, technology, LBS support, image, performance or ergonomics.

Having an innovative product like electronic shifting on the market is a winning position. Shimano had a two year head start and now have the best offering for the OEM market with electronic Ultegra. Now Campy is launching a group and nothing yet from SRAM. The 1-2-3 on electronic shifting is Shimano-Campy-SRAM imo.

I think that the next gen on electronics will be a more tunable system where you can select the ergonomics and shift feel to your personal tastes. The ability to multiple shift gears and the the click response will be options the user can select. Why not optional lever designs that mimic double tap and provide various button/lever locations?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

BunnV said:


> I'm with you. Who does that? Imagine driving your 6 speed manual car and shifting from 1st to 6th or 6th to 1st.... See how well that works out. The cool thing about having 10 or 11 gears is that it's sequential! Why skip perfectly good gears? Learn how to use your gears. It's much more fun!


If you were able to maintain 30mph while climbing a hill in the 53/11, that'd be fine. Otherwise, normal people are on the 39/25 (or whatever) on a steep climb. When they crest the hill, they can then "dump the cassette" and start flying down the hill.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

ejprez said:


> very impressive. However if I just upgraded to Record EPS shifters and derailleurs over my chorus 11 ones, I would still have the same weight bike, just no cables and precise shifting. Although my chorus 11 shifts perfectly to me. I think maybe 2013 i would consider changing over, I learned my lesson about being an early adopter with SRAM Red and the first gen campy 11 speed.


Well, your pocketbook would be $4000 lighter...


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> If you were able to maintain 30mph while climbing a hill in the 53/11, that'd be fine. Otherwise, normal people are on the 39/25 (or whatever) on a steep climb. When they crest the hill, they can then "dump the cassette" and start flying down the hill.


If the transition from uphill to downhill is that abrupt, then I usually just shift from small to large chainring and leave the rear unchanged. That usually gets me roughly the change in gears I want with less effort than dumping the cassette.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

flatlander_48 said:


> Pricing:
> 
> Shimano: Madison's
> Campagnolo: Chicken Cycles
> ...


Why quote prices from different suppliers for each manufacturer? It muddies the comparison. Ribble and many other major UK outlets stocks all three manufacturers which means you can compare groupset prices across the board: 

Ribble Groupset Creator

You can see that Rival starts at 437 pounds and Athena at 560, so it's no surprise that Rival's heavier - and note that the weights stated for Athena on the link I posted earlier are with the carbon crankset and shift levers, which raises the Athena groupset's price to 700 pounds and saves about 110 grams (which means Rival actually weighs less and costs less than standard alloy-equipped Athena...).


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

flatlander_48 said:


> Maybe you missed this...
> 
> *CYCLING+, March 2011 issue*
> 
> ...


Nobody can pronounce it at the bike shop and the LBS thinks they mean Shimano.


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

nightfend said:


> Well, your pocketbook would be $4000 lighter...


And that too would make my butt look smaller. Although for $4000 I would be more inclinded to get Mechanical SR, and 1 or 2 pairs of wheels...shamals, boras or bullets.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

ejprez said:


> And that too would make my butt look smaller. Although for $4000 I would be more inclinded to get Mechanical SR, and 1 or 2 pairs of wheels...shamals, boras or bullets.


For me it would be a decent frame, mechanical Athena and a decent pair of wheels--and probably some traveling money to go somewhere with my bike.

I honestly don't get the whole deal--maybe for pros to avoid a chaingate, but the people who complain most about shifting are the rank amateurs, & I doubt they would be laying down 4 large for a group set...so who is the market?


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

qatarbhoy said:


> Why quote prices from different suppliers for each manufacturer? It muddies the comparison. Ribble and many other major UK outlets stocks all three manufacturers which means you can compare groupset prices across the board:


No, it may not work that way. You assume that Ribble would have the same kind of relationship with all 3 companies. Maybe not. My guess is that at the point in time when CYCLING+ did the tests, these 3 companies had the best prices for a given gruppo.



qatarbhoy said:


> Ribble Groupset Creator
> 
> You can see that Rival starts at 437 pounds and Athena at 560, so it's no surprise that Rival's heavier - and note that the weights stated for Athena on the link I posted earlier are with the carbon crankset and shift levers, which raises the Athena groupset's price to 700 pounds and saves about 110 grams (which means Rival actually weighs less and costs less than standard alloy-equipped Athena...).


All well and good, but remember that Athena is the 4th tier gruppo. It SHOULD be heavier than the 3rd tier Rival. Don't know about pricing. I would still defer to what I said above. Also, I would be careful about comparing these 2 as it is 10sp versus 11sp.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

paredown said:


> For me it would be a decent frame, mechanical Athena and a decent pair of wheels--and probably some traveling money to go somewhere with my bike.
> 
> I honestly don't get the whole deal--maybe for pros to avoid a chaingate, but the people who complain most about shifting are the rank amateurs, & I doubt they would be laying down 4 large for a group set...so who is the market?


You know, some people buy Chevys and others buy BMWs. Still others buy Ferraris. And you have to understand, not everyone who buys a Ferrari has even a hint of a clue as to what to do with it...


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

flatlander_48 said:


> No, it may not work that way. You assume that Ribble would have the same kind of relationship with all 3 companies. Maybe not. My guess is that at the point in time when CYCLING+ did the tests, these 3 companies had the best prices for a given gruppo.
> 
> All well and good, but remember that Athena is the 4th tier gruppo. It SHOULD be heavier than the 3rd tier Rival. Don't know about pricing. I would still defer to what I said above. Also, I would be careful about comparing these 2 as it is 10sp versus 11sp.


I take your point about different relationships, but the prices quoted for the groups are way off what anyone actually needs to pay - and prices haven't dropped that much since the new year. 

As for 3rd or 4th tier, the manufacturers don't have the same number of tiers - setting aside electronic systems, Campy has 6 (Veloce - Centaur - Athena - Chorus - Record - SR), Shimano 5 (Sora - Tiagra - 105 - Ultegra - DA) and SRAM 4 (Apex - Rival - Force - Red). 

The tiers also don't necessarily line up neatly, e.g. Super Record is significantly pricier than Dura Ace, which is a chunk of change more than Red. Apex is seen by some as entry level but isn't marketed by SRAM as such - they highlight that its big cogs makes it ideal for people doing lots of climbing but who don't want a triple, and it's the only SRAM group offered in a white finish, for example. Shimano Sora by comparison really is just budget stuff and few would argue it is comparable to Apex or Veloce.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

qatarbhoy said:


> I take your point about different relationships, but the prices quoted for the groups are way off what anyone actually needs to pay - and prices haven't dropped that much since the new year.


I was merely speculating as I don't know what their criteria was for selecting which retailers for quotes. However, EVERYTHING does not come down to price, but it seems that Shimano folks always want to bring that up. Sort of like how a lot of arguments in married couples degenerate to talking about mothers-in-law. If the price argument was always true, we would all be driving Chevys (metaphorically speaking).



qatarbhoy said:


> As for 3rd or 4th tier, *the manufacturers don't have the same number of tiers* - setting aside electronic systems, Campy has 6 (Veloce - Centaur - Athena - Chorus - Record - SR), Shimano 5 (Sora - Tiagra - 105 - Ultegra - DA) and SRAM 4 (Apex - Rival - Force - Red).
> 
> *The tiers also don't necessarily line up neatly*, e.g. Super Record is significantly pricier than Dura Ace, which is a chunk of change more than Red. Apex is seen by some as entry level but isn't marketed by SRAM as such - they highlight that its big cogs makes it ideal for people doing lots of climbing but who don't want a triple, and it's the only SRAM group offered in a white finish, for example. Shimano Sora by comparison really is just budget stuff and few would argue it is comparable to Apex or Veloce.


You say that like its new news. Don't arrange the tiers from the bottom, up. It only makes sense when you look at it from the top, down. Arranged like that, D/A = S/R = Red as the best that each manufacturer can do.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

flatlander_48 said:


> I was merely speculating as I don't know what their criteria was for selecting which retailers for quotes. However, EVERYTHING does not come down to price, but it seems that Shimano folks always want to bring that up. Sort of like how a lot of arguments in married couples degenerate to talking about mothers-in-law. If the price argument was always true, we would all be driving Chevys (metaphorically speaking).
> 
> 
> 
> You say that like its new news. Don't arrange the tiers from the bottom, up. It only makes sense when you look at it from the top, down. Arranged like that, D/A = S/R = Red as *the best that each manufacturer can do*.


I thought it important to highlight that part, as the groups don't line up that way in performance, weight, or just about any other measure. As "the best each manufacturer can do", though, it is correct.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

I've designed a fair amount of machinery during my 39 year (so far) career as an engineer. As you get near the end of the design process, you are living with the consequences from the choices at the beginning. Since different people are likely to make different choices at the beginning, the consequences as you near the end will also be different.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

Just my 2cents worth. Another shimano vs campy vs sram. IMO all groups are almost identical in doing what they were made to do. Look if the components be it any one of the three can be ridden by pros in the pro ranks all are definitely good enough for the average Joe. And don't say shimano won tour de France so there better. Nonsense, because winning is more dependantmon rider and team support not drive train. As longs as it works you have a shot. And also bicycle mechanic who sets up gears to work properly. Each group does have unique features but in the end all personal preference. All groups work fine at the job they were engineered for.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> If you were able to maintain 30mph while climbing a hill in the 53/11, that'd be fine. Otherwise, normal people are on the 39/25 (or whatever) on a steep climb. When they crest the hill, they can then "dump the cassette" and start flying down the hill.


come on now, thats a ridiculous situation, as mentioned above, shift to the big ring, while clicking off shifts on the rear to get up to the 11(if it is actually needed)


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

bike981 said:


> If the transition from uphill to downhill is that abrupt, then I usually just shift from small to large chainring and leave the rear unchanged. That usually gets me roughly the change in gears I want with less effort than dumping the cassette.


That's going to put you in the big-big combo, not exactly recommended.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

orange_julius said:


> That's going to put you in the big-big combo, not exactly recommended.


I ride the big-big 53-25 combo all the time. In bike racing, you have to cross chain like that. Why? Because with mechanical groups, moving to the small ring on a short steep climb while pedalling under pressure is just asking for a dropped chain.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> If I could downshift 5 gears, that might be useful for road.
> 
> On mtb, that big jump to a big gear is useful. Sometimes you crest a steep pitch and need to jump into a big gear to descend right away. That happens much, much less often on the road.


I just wanted to update here,
I read the article in detail. 1.5 sec to do a full jump. That wouldn't be very useful for me on mtb or road. Too long in reality. I could always hit 5 + 5 to get there.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

nightfend said:


> I ride the big-big 53-25 combo all the time. In bike racing, you have to cross chain like that. Why? Because with mechanical groups, moving to the small ring on a short steep climb while pedalling under pressure is just asking for a dropped chain.


Not if its tuned right. Must not be riding Campy! :thumbsup:


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Not if its tuned right. Must not be riding Campy! :thumbsup:


Bullsh!t. Any group can drop a chain under the right circumstances. Just because it's "tuned right" doesn't mean a chain drop can't happen. See Andy Schleck, multiple times.


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

orange_julius said:


> That's going to put you in the big-big combo, not exactly recommended.


Right, true if you were climbing in the biggest cog. However, I have a 34/50 front and 12-30 rear (thanks, Trek!) so being in the 34/30 combo is rarely the case for me except on the steepest of hills. For those with a smaller cassette range, point taken.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

DIRT BOY said:


> Not if its tuned right. Must not be riding Campy! :thumbsup:


I'm not saying you "always" drop a chain doing this. But even a 5% chance of this happening is enough to make me re-think my strategy on a short steep climb.

If electronic front shifting works as well as all these reviews say, then I'd say being able to drop from big to small ring at any time is far more important than being able to shift through the whole spread of gears all at once.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> Bullsh!t. Any group can drop a chain under the right circumstances. Just because it's "tuned right" doesn't mean a chain drop can't happen. See Andy Schleck, multiple times.


Relax...Kind of a joke. But yes, I well tuned drivetrains, cable tension, chainrings and what not, will prevent this. 

I never dropped a chain on a road bike yet. If and when I do switch rings up front, it's under full load. Maybe I am lucky.

Just saying. BUt I am serious, about having a finally tuned DT, the right chain and what not. Oh, Andy rides SRAM, right? Point made! :thumbsup:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

nightfend said:


> I'm not saying you "always" drop a chain doing this. But even a 5% chance of this happening is enough to make me re-think my strategy on a short steep climb.
> 
> If electronic front shifting works as well as all these reviews say, then I'd say being able to drop from big to small ring at any time is far more important than being able to shift through the whole spread of gears all at once.


Yes, electronic shifting up front will basically eliminate this. So will Campy. See Andy Schelck.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

> _Yes, electronic shifting up front will basically eliminate this. So will Campy. See Andy Schelck._


Yes, you'd think more of the top teams would use Campagnolo.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Yes, electronic shifting up front will basically eliminate this. So will Campy. See Andy Schelck.


Schleck dropped a chain with electronic shifting. See TdS time trial 2011. 


There goes that theory....


Brand still doesn't matter. Any group can drop a chain in the right circumstances.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> If you were able to maintain 30mph while climbing a hill in the 53/11, that'd be fine. Otherwise, normal people are on the 39/25 (or whatever) on a steep climb. When they crest the hill, they can then "dump the cassette" and start flying down the hill.


Exactly! Hey, think of it this way, Campagnolo is the only manufacturer who has been able duplicate the full cassette dump capability of downtube shifters!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Why is everyone focused on the functionality of shifting across the cassette? 

As if that's the only feature...


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## Natzoo (Jul 5, 2009)

I think it would be a safe to say that Di2 is also physically capable to dump the cassette in one sweep. The only thing that prevents it is software. If this is truly a useful feature, shimano could just update the control box for future versions or even provide an swap for old versions. 

Getting back on track to the real physical differences, Campy uses a worm gear (which cannot be back driven) while shimano uses a stepper motor (which can)? I wonder how that difference will play out?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

nightfend said:


> I ride the big-big 53-25 combo all the time. In bike racing, you have to cross chain like that. Why? Because with mechanical groups, moving to the small ring on a short steep climb while pedalling under pressure is just asking for a dropped chain.


Without a chain watcher that may occasionally happen. But with a properly adjusted mech & a chain watcher it is almost impossible.

An electronic shifting system isn't going to prevent the chain being dropped on the way from the outer to inner ring. It will help with the shift in the opposite direction though.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Natzoo said:


> Getting back on track to the real physical differences, Campy uses a worm gear (which cannot be back driven) while shimano uses a stepper motor (which can)? I wonder how that difference will play out?


Can you explain for a numpty like me please? What does back driven mean?


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## Natzoo (Jul 5, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> Can you explain for a numpty like me please? What does back driven mean?


From wikipedia: "In a worm-and-gear set, the worm can always drive the gear. However, if the gear attempts to drive the worm, it may or may not succeed"

Basically what this means in bike terms is that the motor will be able to move the derailleur but the derailleur will not be able to move the motor. So, no matter how hard you push on the derailleur, you will not be able to move it (even if the power is off). Hence, you cannot back drive the motor.

This has to do with the contact angle of the worm gear being nearly parallel to the axis of rotation of the worm.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Natzoo said:


> I think it would be a safe to say that Di2 is also physically capable to dump the cassette in one sweep. The only thing that prevents it is software. If this is truly a useful feature, shimano could just update the control box for future versions or even provide an swap for old versions.
> 
> Getting back on track to the real physical differences, Campy uses a worm gear (which cannot be back driven) while shimano uses a stepper motor (which can)? I wonder how that difference will play out?


Apples and oranges. You're mixing motor technology with drive gearing technology.

Campagnolo: Servomotor with worm gear drive
Shimano: Stepper motor with ?? gear drive

I don't know what gear arrangement Shimano uses, someone here does. Basically a Stepper divides a full revolution into a number of Steps. If it is designed for 360 Steps per revolution, one Step is 1 deg of motor rotation. You control speed and acceleration by how quickly you provide pulses to make it move one Step. Usually a Stepper does not have external feedback to confirm exactly where it is. A Servomotor usually has some sort of encoder to provide feedback to the controller as to exactly where it is. For example, if the motor is told to go 3.75 rotations, the encoder (spinning with the drive assembly) is counting those 3.75 rotations.

For a derailleur application, I'm not sure if there is some sort of gearing between the motor and the derailleur in the Shimano system. You have to be very thoughtful about designing Stepper systems. If it is a direct drive (no gearing), and you can exceed the torque rating (pull in torque, I think) by overload or some external force the Stepper won't respond correctly to its commands. Basically, it won't be where it is supposed to be.


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## Natzoo (Jul 5, 2009)

flatlander_48 said:


> Apples and oranges. You're mixing motor technology with drive gearing technology.


Sorry if I was confusing, I was assuming that the stepper motor on Di2 was either direct drive, or geared using normal spur and pinion setup. I was commenting on the fact that a worm gear cannot be back driven while a direct drive/spur/pinion stepper motor can.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Natzoo said:


> Sorry if I was confusing, I was assuming that the stepper motor on Di2 was either direct drive, or geared using normal spur and pinion setup. I was commenting on the fact that a worm gear cannot be back driven while a direct drive/spur/pinion stepper motor can.


Why would you need to "back drive" it?


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

It would be interesting to have a thourough discussion of the engineering choices done with Di2 and EPS.

I cannot help but think that Dura-Ace Di2 was brought to market to finance engineering cost. Ultegra Di2 seems like a much more refined package, and possibly on par with EPS in that respect.


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## Natzoo (Jul 5, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> Why would you need to "back drive" it?


If the derailleur hits something, the sideways force of changing gears under a load, or if it is bouncing around it will be back driven by its own interia.

No one would back drive it on purpose. The tiny interactions with the environment while the bike is in motion will have some back driving effect.

Perhaps this translates to firmer shifting? We seem to be slitting hairs in this discussion, but I think these small differences are important since at this level of components, you are paying for the small differences.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

qatarbhoy said:


> Yes, you'd think more of the top teams would use Campagnolo.


Its money, regardless of brand.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> Schleck dropped a chain with electronic shifting. See TdS time trial 2011.
> 
> 
> There goes that theory....


Then his mech should have been fired on the spot or Andy needs to learn to shift. But in theory, electric shifting is supposed to stop drop chains, because how it shift under load. Remember di2 is still new and has kinks




> Brand still doesn't matter. Any group can drop a chain in the right circumstances.


Don't you read? I am having fun will the whole shimano v campy thing


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## bruce_wayne (Apr 30, 2010)

Pros have the best mechanics/support staff keeping evrything working in tip-top form. What's the lay person to do when the electronics go on the fritz/need adjustment? Carry a wiring diagram in your jersey pocket? Maybe I'm overcomplicating the componentry. Should be interesting to see what kind of questions turn up in the Wrenching forum a couple years from now.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

bruce_wayne said:


> Pros have the best mechanics/support staff keeping evrything working in tip-top form. What's the lay person to do when the electronics go on the fritz/need adjustment?


The same thing they do when their mechanical Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo Ultrashift/Powershift/Escape brake/shift control goes on the fritz - send it back for warranty service or buy a replacement unit.

Hopefully the electronic systems have some way to get you home when they fail like attaching a shift cable to a water bottle screw on a mechanical system so you're not stuck riding in your smallest cog.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

:thumbsup:


DIRT BOY said:


> Not if its tuned right. Must not be riding Campy! :thumbsup:


That's what I'm talking about. Why is anyone riding shimano btw?????


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Chris-X said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> That's what I'm talking about. Why is anyone riding shimano btw?????


Maybe they like fishing?


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

bruce_wayne said:


> Pros have the best mechanics/support staff keeping evrything working in tip-top form. What's the lay person to do when the electronics go on the fritz/need adjustment? Carry a wiring diagram in your jersey pocket? Maybe I'm overcomplicating the componentry. Should be interesting to see what kind of questions turn up in the Wrenching forum a couple years from now.


As far as the electronics go, it either works or it doesn't. I doubt if you can do much to fix an electronic problem; short of making sure that the connections are good.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Campy Record EPS will be around the same price as Di2 and lighter!
> 
> Quick Look: Campagnolo
> 
> Also:



Can someone who has done the research summarize for me the pros and cons of electronic shifting in the first place (why would a regular rider want it?) as well as Shimano vs. Campy?

Is it simply the smoother, faster, more responsive shifting? Is it worth $1,000 or whatever it costs?


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> The same thing they do when their mechanical Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo Ultrashift/Powershift/Escape brake/shift control goes on the fritz - send it back for warranty service or buy a replacement unit.
> 
> *Hopefully the electronic systems have some way to get you home when they fail like attaching a shift cable to a water bottle screw on a mechanical system so you're not stuck riding in your smallest cog.*


I don't know about Di2, but EPS has feature that allows you to manually disengage the drive mechanism for the R/D. You must move the R/D by hand to go from one gear to the next, but you won't be stuck in one gear. This is also to help prevent damage if you fall over. It was mentioned in Zinn's road test article as someone from the press corps actually crashed and had to use this feature.


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## Oasisbill (Jan 15, 2011)

55x11 said:


> Can someone who has done the research summarize for me the pros and cons of electronic shifting in the first place (why would a regular rider want it?) as well as Shimano vs. Campy?
> 
> Is it simply the smoother, faster, more responsive shifting? Is it worth $1,000 or whatever it costs?


More like $4000......


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

55x11 said:


> Can someone who has done the research summarize for me the pros and cons of electronic shifting in the first place (why would a regular rider want it?) as well as Shimano vs. Campy?
> 
> Is it simply the smoother, faster, more responsive shifting? Is it worth $1,000 or whatever it costs?


So you will rely on others rather than learning for yourself to understand something?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Mr. Scary said:


> So you will rely on others rather than learning for yourself to understand something?


Of course! You never asked any advice from people more experienced than yourself?! Isn't that the whole purpose of this forum?!

$4K sounds like a steep price hike to eliminate $5 cables. Do you have anything useful to contribute or just snark?


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

DIRT BOY said:


> Relax...Kind of a joke. But yes, I well tuned drivetrains, cable tension, chainrings and what not, will prevent this.
> 
> I never dropped a chain on a road bike yet. If and when I do switch rings up front, it's under full load. Maybe I am lucky.
> 
> Just saying. BUt I am serious, about having a finally tuned DT, the right chain and what not. *Oh, Andy rides SRAM, right? Point made!* :thumbsup:


I think Andy needs a chainwatcher and a Campy drivetrain. Do they rebadge components?


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Schleck dropped a chain with electronic shifting. See TdS time trial 2011.
> 
> 
> There goes that theory....
> ...





DIRT BOY said:


> Then his mech should have been fired on the spot or Andy needs to learn to shift. But in theory, electric shifting is supposed to stop drop chains, because how it shift under load. Remember di2 is still new and has kinks
> 
> 
> Don't you read? I am having fun will the whole shimano v campy thing


No, campy really won't ever drop a chain, don't back off!:lol:

Of course you ride campy, right?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

55x11 said:


> Of course! You never asked any advice from people more experienced than yourself?! Isn't that the whole purpose of this forum?!
> 
> $4K sounds like a steep price hike to eliminate $5 cables. Do you have anything useful to contribute or just snark?


It's not $4K to eliminate cables. It's the difference between the regular Group and it's electronic counterpart that is the cost. So approximately $1700, which is a lot. 

But the benefits are a system that is always indexed with zero deterioration of shift. Aside from having to charge the battery a few times a year, there is no maintenance necessary, no replacement cables & outers every year. When you add that into the equation it's not that big a premium after all. A Dura Ace gear cable set costs almost $55 so admittedly it'd take a fair few years to even out. But in that time, barring accidents, the DI2 will shift accurately every single time.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

55x11 said:


> Of course! You never asked any advice from people more experienced than yourself?! Isn't that the whole purpose of this forum?!
> 
> $4K sounds like a steep price hike to eliminate $5 cables. Do you have anything useful to contribute or just snark?


I understood that $4k is the price of the whole group and regular Record is about $2300, so a $1700 difference rather than asking if $4K is the price to replace cables...


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## robc in wi (Sep 8, 2011)

While there has certainly been some trickle down of technology (105/Rival) the cost for the higher end groups will always price them out of most cyclists pay. R and D costs are tiny compared to markups of several thousand percent. I have buddies who have Campy Super Record groups but they are also doctors, dentists and surgeons. The landscape is littered with high tech/must haves that never caught on. Unless you are rich, or a sponsored rider, or live in your parent's basement this electronic stuff isn't affordable or practical. I have 27 year old Dura Ace index shifters on my old crit bike that still do the job and older 105 shifters on my current bike that shift great and never drop the chain. I'll stick w/old technology that works and I can afford.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

robc in wi said:


> While there has certainly been some trickle down of technology (105/Rival) the cost for the higher end groups will always price them out of most cyclists pay.* R and D costs are tiny compared to markups of several thousand percent.* I have buddies who have Campy Super Record groups but they are also doctors, dentists and surgeons. The landscape is littered with high tech/must haves that never caught on. Unless you are rich, or a sponsored rider, or live in your parent's basement this electronic stuff isn't affordable or practical. I have 27 year old Dura Ace index shifters on my old crit bike that still do the job and older 105 shifters on my current bike that shift great and never drop the chain. I'll stick w/old technology that works and I can afford.


Several thousand percent, eh? I'd like to know who's getting those thousand percent mark-ups, cuz it sure ain't me. (mark-up on groups for an LBS is usually between 40-60%, typically closer to 40% due to online competition. -12% to 12% if we actually try to price-match, which is unsustainable.)


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## Urb (Jul 19, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Several thousand percent, eh? I'd like to know who's getting those thousand percent mark-ups, cuz it sure ain't me. (mark-up on groups for an LBS is usually between 40-60%, typically closer to 40% due to online competition. -12% to 12% if we actually try to price-match, which is unsustainable.)



Which is really unfortunate. I love my lbs but as you've already mentioned there is a ~30% tax I must pay to be loyal compared to purchasing online. Not a big deal if I'm buying something under $20 but most items I'm looking to purchase are over $1000. It's a big hit. The new di2 ultegra if going to put a big dent into my savings. Can't even think about buying zipps for another year.

btw, not sure how Campy is "beating" Shimano. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Shimano make significanty more $$ over Campy?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

robc in wi said:


> While there has certainly been some trickle down of technology (105/Rival) the cost for the higher end groups will always price them out of most cyclists pay. R and D costs are tiny compared to markups of several thousand percent. I have buddies who have Campy Super Record groups but they are also doctors, dentists and surgeons. The landscape is littered with high tech/must haves that never caught on. Unless you are rich, or a sponsored rider, or live in your parent's basement this electronic stuff isn't affordable or practical. I have 27 year old Dura Ace index shifters on my old crit bike that still do the job and older 105 shifters on my current bike that shift great and never drop the chain. I'll stick w/old technology that works and I can afford.


So they studied more than you did and now you have the issue that you can't afford Super Record or Electronic because we all know that Campy, Shimano, and SRAM's revenue is higher than most countries GDP from all of the gouging right? Right?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robc in wi said:


> While there has certainly been some trickle down of technology (105/Rival) the cost for the higher end groups will always price them out of most cyclists pay. R and D costs are tiny compared to markups of several thousand percent. I have buddies who have Campy Super Record groups but they are also doctors, dentists and surgeons. The landscape is littered with high tech/must haves that never caught on. Unless you are rich, or a sponsored rider, or live in your parent's basement this electronic stuff isn't affordable or practical. I have 27 year old Dura Ace index shifters on my old crit bike that still do the job and older 105 shifters on my current bike that shift great and never drop the chain. I'll stick w/old technology that works and I can afford.


I think in time, electric shifting will be main stream and not coast that much more than a mech version. Right now, the cost is high to recuperate R&D costs.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> Several thousand percent, eh? I'd like to know who's getting those thousand percent mark-ups, cuz it sure ain't me. (mark-up on groups for an LBS is usually between 40-60%, typically closer to 40% due to online competition. -12% to 12% if we actually try to price-match, which is unsustainable.)


LOL, I agree. We are not getting rich selling this stuff.


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## robc in wi (Sep 8, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Several thousand percent, eh? I'd like to know who's getting those thousand percent mark-ups, cuz it sure ain't me. (mark-up on groups for an LBS is usually between 40-60%, typically closer to 40% due to online competition. -12% to 12% if we actually try to price-match, which is unsustainable.)


Okay, probably an little on the high side.
Figures that you would reply. I'm not talking about the LBS, I'm saying it costs a tiny fraction of say a $500 crankset for the actual material and manufacturing. $200 cassettes? $400 saddles? It's like a twist on the line from Field of Dreams " if you make it ridiculously expensive they will buy it". Specialized gets a special award for the $18,000 McClaren Venge, seriously? I wish I had better equipment too but is it made of platinum and diamonds? Pricing is already out of control and the electronic stuff isn't helping.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

robc in wi said:


> Okay, probably an little on the high side.
> Figures that you would reply. I'm not talking about the LBS, I'm saying it costs a tiny fraction of say a $500 crankset for the actual material and manufacturing. $200 cassettes? $400 saddles? It's like a twist on the line from Field of Dreams " if you make it ridiculously expensive they will buy it". Specialized gets a special award for the $18,000 McClaren Venge, seriously? I wish I had better equipment too but is it made of platinum and diamonds? Pricing is already out of control and the electronic stuff isn't helping.


The simply don't buy it, should Ferrari and Aston Martin discontinue production because most can't afford one?


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

robc in wi said:


> While there has certainly been some trickle down of technology (105/Rival) the cost for the higher end groups will always price them out of most cyclists pay. R and D costs are tiny compared to markups of several thousand percent. I have buddies who have Campy Super Record groups but they are also doctors, dentists and surgeons. The landscape is littered with high tech/must haves that never caught on. Unless you are rich, or a sponsored rider, or live in your parent's basement this electronic stuff isn't affordable or practical. I have 27 year old Dura Ace index shifters on my old crit bike that still do the job and older 105 shifters on my current bike that shift great and never drop the chain. I'll stick w/old technology that works and I can afford.


While it may be acceptable to live in the past, you shouldn't expect others to want to visit you there...


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

PRB said:


> It only matters if that's where the company focus is at, otherwise it doesn't matter one bit. Campy doesn't care about selling millions of components. So basicially what it says is that Campy has it's own way of doing business. From The Italian Job</snip>


You're absolutely right. That probably explains why Campy is still losing marketshare. Shimano all but destroyed them years ago and just as they started to shine again, SRAM comes along and is stealing their flame. Campy needs to step it up or they will be has-beens. Adorn their groups with all the carbon they want but the fact remains that no matter how good Campy is ( and they are very good), their refusal to expand could be their undoing in the future. What does it mean when the majority of your customers, in the largest consumer market in the world, are hitting geriatric age? As of late, there are an awful lot of Italian bikes running SRAM (and Shimano to some degree). Looks like Campy doesn't have a hold on the Italian bike market anymore. As blasphemous as I think it is to not have Campy on Italian bikes, the fact remains that SRAM is causing damage in a big way. The peletons starting to be dominated by SRAM. Red is only six years old at best and Red seems to be popping up on more bikes every year. If SRAM were to come out with an electronic group, I think Shimano and Campy would be in for a world of hurt.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

terbennett said:


> You're absolutely right. That probably explains why Campy is still losing marketshare. Shimano all but destroyed them years ago and just as they started to shine again, SRAM comes along and is stealing their flame. Campy needs to step it up or they will be has-beens. Adorn their groups with all the carbon they want but the fact remains that no matter how good Campy is ( and they are very good), their refusal to expand could be their undoing in the future. What does it mean when the majority of your customers, in the largest consumer market in the world, are hitting geriatric age? As of late, there are an awful lot of Italian bikes running SRAM (and Shimano to some degree). Looks like Campy doesn't have a hold on the Italian bike market anymore. As blasphemous as I think it is to not have Campy on Italian bikes, the fact remains that SRAM is causing damage in a big way. The peletons starting to be dominated by SRAM. Red is only six years old at best and Red seems to be popping up on more bikes every year. If SRAM were to come out with an electronic group, I think Shimano and Campy would be in for a world of hurt.


Only if their fixed costs are established to require the need for sales volume to sustain them, there is evidence of plenty of exclusive manufacturers that compete without large volume (Harley Davidson, Ferrari, etc). If they can continue to price accordingly and make a profit, they won't go away. And despite what people keep claiming I'd say SRAM has hurt Shimano more than Campy in the road market, they are gaining OE spec and wheels are a common spline design.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

terbennett said:


> You're absolutely right. That probably explains why Campy is still losing marketshare. Shimano all but destroyed them years ago and just as they started to shine again, SRAM comes along and is stealing their flame. Campy needs to step it up or they will be has-beens. Adorn their groups with all the carbon they want but the fact remains that no matter how good Campy is ( and they are very good), their refusal to expand could be their undoing in the future. What does it mean when the majority of your customers, in the largest consumer market in the world, are hitting geriatric age? As of late, there are an awful lot of Italian bikes running SRAM (and Shimano to some degree). Looks like Campy doesn't have a hold on the Italian bike market anymore. As blasphemous as I think it is to not have Campy on Italian bikes, the fact remains that SRAM is causing damage in a big way. The peletons starting to be dominated by SRAM. Red is only six years old at best and Red seems to be popping up on more bikes every year. If SRAM were to come out with an electronic group, I think Shimano and Campy would be in for a world of hurt.





Mr. Scary said:


> Only if their fixed costs are established to require the need for sales volume to sustain them, there is evidence of plenty of exclusive manufacturers that compete without large volume (Harley Davidson, Ferrari, etc). If they can continue to price accordingly and make a profit, they won't go away. And despite what people keep claiming I'd say SRAM has hurt Shimano more than Campy in the road market, they are gaining OE spec and wheels are a common spline design.


Both of these posts touch on important aspects, I think.

Would Ferrari still be Ferrari if they were mass-produced?

Would Rolex be as desirable if the watches were made in Taiwan?

Does a business owner really need to give a shite about "market share" and other business babble if the product is somewhat exclusive, desirable and priced accordingly?

This American 'need' to always expand is not the way of everyone else in the world. Luckily, some businesses would rather continue to make a quality product locally than to ship designs off to Asia and have the parts punched out by a machine there.

Campy started because of racing, and racing continues to be its focus. There were a few dark years where they tried to bring in mass-produced crap to appeal to a larger audience (Xenon). That hurt them more than their higher prices for the truly great stuff.

To "grow market share" would necessarily require overseas production. That would kill Campy.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

ultimobici said:


> It's not $4K to eliminate cables. It's the difference between the regular Group and it's electronic counterpart that is the cost. So approximately $1700, which is a lot.
> 
> But the benefits are a system that is always indexed with zero deterioration of shift. Aside from having to charge the battery a few times a year, there is no maintenance necessary, no replacement cables & outers every year. When you add that into the equation it's not that big a premium after all. A Dura Ace gear cable set costs almost $55 so admittedly it'd take a fair few years to even out. But in that time, barring accidents, the DI2 will shift accurately every single time.


thanks for info. 
I thought the difference is more like $1,000 for Ultegra, but someone said $4K.
If it is a workable solution, it may be worth it not to worry about adjusting and replacing cables. It may be especially useful for "breakaway" frame bikes.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

Dumping accross lots of multiple gears is extremely handy in city riding. If you've never had the option, you might not realize how handy it is. I rode Shimano for years and switched to Campy several years ago. That was one (among others) feature that I really noticed I liked and used. If you are out on the open road with minimal stops, it might not be a big deal, but it the world of road riding and unexpected quick stops, it's very useful.
Oh, and you can't counter with "you shouldn't have to make unexpected quick stops", that's just part of city riding that you have to get used to.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Mr. Scary said:


> Only if their fixed costs are established to require the need for sales volume to sustain them, there is evidence of plenty of exclusive manufacturers that compete without large volume (Harley Davidson, Ferrari, etc). If they can continue to price accordingly and make a profit, they won't go away. And despite what people keep claiming I'd say SRAM has hurt Shimano more than Campy in the road market, they are gaining OE spec and wheels are a common spline design.


Ironically, but brands you have described aren't just low-volume but they aren't nearly as reliable as many of their mass-produced counterparts. Anyway, Campy being exclusive is their choice, but the fact remains that the new generation isn't buying Campy. It's for grey hairs. That's who cares about Campy's history.Whatever the Pro Tour riders are riding is what most cyclists want anyway. 

Campy isn't dominant like it was in the old days. Maybe in Europe, they might still have a lot of pull, but even there, Shimano and SRAM are starting to show up on bikes much more than they did just two or three years ago- especially SRAM. Personally, I'm not a fan of SRAM but I know that the feud over Shimano and Campy continues. As such, if you ask most people, who are fans of either group what their next option would be, they will usually say SRAM. 

Campagnolo will survive- you are right, but at the rate they are going, it's questionable in the US market. I know it's my opinion but the fact remains that people here that use Campy are overwhelmingly Baby Boomers. What do you do when your devoted customers are starting to die off? I think that's one of the reasons Campy created Fulcrum. They can still sell wheels to the Shimano/SRAM crowd. Change the name so the Campy fantics don't get ticked and you have a winner. Being that Fulcrum is still around shows that Campy cares somewhat about marketshare. Who knows? Maybe Campy will offer Fulcrum gruppos in the future. I'm just saying...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

terbennett said:


> Ironically, but brands you have described aren't just low-volume but they aren't nearly as reliable as many of their mass-produced counterparts. Anyway, Campy being exclusive is their choice, but the fact remains that the new generation isn't buying Campy. It's for grey hairs. That's who cares about Campy's history.Whatever the Pro Tour riders are riding is what most cyclists want anyway.
> 
> Campy isn't dominant like it was in the old days. Maybe in Europe, they might still have a lot of pull, but even there, Shimano and SRAM are starting to show up on bikes much more than they did just two or three years ago- especially SRAM. Personally, I'm not a fan of SRAM but I know that the feud over Shimano and Campy continues. As such, if you ask most people, who are fans of either group what their next option would be, they will usually say SRAM.
> 
> Campagnolo will survive- you are right, but at the rate they are going, it's questionable in the US market. I know it's my opinion but the fact remains that people here that use Campy are overwhelmingly Baby Boomers. What do you do when your devoted customers are starting to die off? I think that's one of the reasons Campy created Fulcrum. They can still sell wheels to the Shimano/SRAM crowd. Change the name so the Campy fantics don't get ticked and you have a winner. Being that Fulcrum is still around shows that Campy cares somewhat about marketshare. Who knows? Maybe Campy will offer Fulcrum gruppos in the future. I'm just saying...


I feel the need to echo what you've just said: Campy's major fanbase is older riders. Campy groups on bikes ridden by someone under the age of 50 are as rare as a coelacanth around these parts. Younger folks are going to Shimano and SRAM. I'm sure a part of that has to do with the high price of Campy parts and the poor availability in the shops around here. It's too bad, since it will be tough to get people interested once they're solidly in the Shimano/SRAM camp.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

It's funny reading predictions of Campag's imminent demise based on the market in the US. In case you flunked geography, there is a world outside the US. 

Even if you exclude countries in Europe where cycling is not popular or practical, Europe has a potential customer base almost double that of the US. 

If you go to any city in Italy, France, Belgium or Holland you will be staggered by the numbers of cyclists heading out on a weekend morning. Standing at the roadside in Monza, i was passed by peloton after peloton of riders. True they're not all on Campag equipped bikes, but it's not as you imaging it is based on your experiences on the other side of the pond. In the UK there are plenty of affordable bikes that are Campag equipped and they sell well. Working for a Trek/Wilier/Merckx/De Rosa/Cannondale dealer I built up plenty of Veloce, Centaur & Athena bikes. Up to £1000 was the preserve of Shimano with Campag coming in at £1000 and Sram starting at £1500. as soon as a customer was into £1000+ the split was pretty even. The customers were from all age groups, if anything fewer were "Babyboomers" and many were women.

Ride to the top of any pass in Europe and several things are apparent to the English speaking bikie. 

There are so many cyclists like you
There are all types of bikes fitted with all manner of kit
No one thinks you're strange riding a bike 150km in a day for fun!

Lastly, if Campag sales are dire, why is it in the aisle for groupsets Campag accounts for a third of the shelf space yet has less packaging? Funny that.....


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

terbennett said:


> Ironically, but brands you have described aren't just low-volume but they aren't nearly as reliable as many of their mass-produced counterparts. Anyway, Campy being exclusive is their choice, but the fact remains that the new generation isn't buying Campy. It's for grey hairs. That's who cares about Campy's history.Whatever the Pro Tour riders are riding is what most cyclists want anyway.
> 
> Campy isn't dominant like it was in the old days. Maybe in Europe, they might still have a lot of pull, but even there, Shimano and SRAM are starting to show up on bikes much more than they did just two or three years ago- especially SRAM. Personally, I'm not a fan of SRAM but I know that the feud over Shimano and Campy continues. *As such, if you ask most people, who are fans of either group what their next option would be, they will usually say SRAM.*


*
Oh Hell NO.
* 


terbennett said:


> Campagnolo will survive- you are right, but at the rate they are going, it's questionable in the US market. I know it's my opinion but the fact remains that people here that use Campy are overwhelmingly Baby Boomers. What do you do when your devoted customers are starting to die off? I think that's one of the reasons Campy created Fulcrum. They can still sell wheels to the Shimano/SRAM crowd. Change the name so the Campy fantics don't get ticked and you have a winner. Being that Fulcrum is still around shows that Campy cares somewhat about marketshare. Who knows? Maybe Campy will offer Fulcrum gruppos in the future. I'm just saying...


I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that it helps them leverage their design-development work and their patents. It also puts the technology in the hands of people so that in the future they might be motivated to migrate into the full Campagnolo line. Fulcrum has offered cranks for a while now, but there has been no hint of other parts. I don't think they will.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> I feel the need to echo what you've just said: Campy's major fanbase is older riders. Campy groups on bikes ridden by someone under the age of 50 are as rare as a coelacanth around these parts. Younger folks are going to Shimano and SRAM. I'm sure a part of that has to do with the high price of Campy parts and the poor availability in the shops around here. It's too bad, since it will be tough to get people interested once they're solidly in the Shimano/SRAM camp.


I think the main reason that MANY folks ride Shimano and SRAM is that is what was on the bike that they liked. Now, that may not be how it happens for experienced riders, but I bet it is true for many people with their first and maybe even second bikes.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jun 22, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> I feel the need to echo what you've just said: Campy's major fanbase is older riders. Campy groups on bikes ridden by someone under the age of 50 are as rare as a coelacanth around these parts. Younger folks are going to Shimano and SRAM. I'm sure a part of that has to do with the high price of Campy parts and the poor availability in the shops around here. It's too bad, since it will be tough to get people interested once they're solidly in the Shimano/SRAM camp.


The price and availability are a huge point. I'm one of those "younger folks" who currently rides Shimano 105, not because I love it or think it's amazing but it's what I could afford and what was available when I bought my bike. 

I really want to try Campy however it is not stocked locally and the price is too high for an undergrad that has been eating oatmeal for breakfast for the past 2 years since it's the cheapest thing you can get...

Someday I'll get to ride Campy...even just to try it and make my own determinations


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

robc in wi said:


> I'm saying it costs a tiny fraction of say a $500 crankset for the actual material and manufacturing.


Go price a few 200 ton drop forges, and a couple of computerised ovens. And maybe a laser fabric cutter too.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

SolidSnake03 said:


> The price and availability are a huge point. I'm one of those "younger folks" who currently rides Shimano 105, not because I love it or think it's amazing but it's what I could afford and what was available when I bought my bike.
> 
> I really want to try Campy however it is not stocked locally and the price is too high for an undergrad that has been eating oatmeal for breakfast for the past 2 years since it's the cheapest thing you can get...
> 
> Someday I'll get to ride Campy...even just to try it and make my own determinations


"not stocked locally" I take as B/S because if you are going to ride a bike for several years, you can't wait a couple of days for FedEx? I guess when that Instant Gratification thing kicks in it's a b***h, isn't it?

I was just on TotalCycling and it's a funny think about price. 105 is 3rd tier for Shimano. It's about $50 cheaper than the SRAM's 4th tier Apex. Can't make a comparison for 10sp Campagnolo as they only list Record 10sp. But, the difference may be closer than you know. A lot of folks who sell Shimano and SRAM in their store don't really want to mess with an additional product line or they carry no weight with the distributor. As a result they will high ball the price or cast aspersions to discourage you from buying Campagnolo.

The major bike manufacturers tend not to offer Campagnolo. Why is open to conjecture, but Trek for example only has Campagnolo available on their Madone 6 line. As far as I can tell, Campagnolo is not available in any way with Giant. You would have to buy a Frame and Fork and configure it yourself. Related to the Instant Gratification concept, that's not going to happen either.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Go price a few 200 ton drop forges, and a couple of computerised ovens. And maybe a laser fabric cutter too.


True. Plus, carbon fiber prepreg isn't like buying burlap...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> I feel the need to echo what you've just said: Campy's major fanbase is older riders. Campy groups on bikes ridden by someone under the age of 50 are as rare as a coelacanth around these parts. Younger folks are going to Shimano and SRAM. I'm sure a part of that has to do with the high price of Campy parts and the poor availability in the shops around here. It's too bad, since it will be tough to get people interested once they're solidly in the Shimano/SRAM camp.


Maybe they are just Cheapskates? LOL!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

flatlander_48 said:


> *"not stocked locally" I take as B/S because if you are going to ride a bike for several years, you can't wait a couple of days for FedEx? I guess when that Instant Gratification thing kicks in it's a b***h, isn't it?*
> 
> I was just on TotalCycling and it's a funny think about price. 105 is 3rd tier for Shimano. It's about $50 cheaper than the SRAM's 4th tier Apex. Can't make a comparison for 10sp Campagnolo as they only list Record 10sp. But, the difference may be closer than you know. A lot of folks who sell Shimano and SRAM in their store don't really want to mess with an additional product line or they carry no weight with the distributor. As a result they will high ball the price or cast aspersions to discourage you from buying Campagnolo.
> 
> The major bike manufacturers tend not to offer Campagnolo. Why is open to conjecture, but Trek for example only has Campagnolo available on their Madone 6 line. As far as I can tell, Campagnolo is not available in any way with Giant. You would have to buy a Frame and Fork and configure it yourself. Related to the Instant Gratification concept, that's not going to happen either.


For someone who's interested in Campy but not willing to drop $2500 on a group they don't know if they like, "not stocked locally" is absolutely a deal breaker. If you can't ride it, see it, hold it, fiddle with it, etc, the chances are much greater that the customer won't take the plunge on it. 

Some part of the decision involves instant gratification, but a significant portion of it involves avoiding buyers remorse, which "sight unseen" purchases can definitely lead to.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jun 22, 2011)

flatlander_48 said:


> "not stocked locally" I take as B/S because if you are going to ride a bike for several years, you can't wait a couple of days for FedEx? I guess when that Instant Gratification thing kicks in it's a b***h, isn't it?
> 
> I normally don't get riled up but the Instant Gratification thing boils my blood right now. Do you have any idea how long I have scrapped together cash for every single cycling purchase I have ever made? Do you have any notion of what it's like to skip one lunch a week and put that $5 toward saving up for something you really care about? Your questioning my need for instant gratification when it took me the first two years of my undergraduate to buy my own bike?
> 
> ...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

flatlander_48 said:


> "not stocked locally" I take as B/S because if you are going to ride a bike for several years, you can't wait a couple of days for FedEx? I guess when that Instant Gratification thing kicks in it's a b***h, isn't it?
> 
> I was just on TotalCycling and it's a funny think about price. 105 is 3rd tier for Shimano. It's about $50 cheaper than the SRAM's 4th tier Apex. Can't make a comparison for 10sp Campagnolo as they only list Record 10sp. But, the difference may be closer than you know. A lot of folks who sell Shimano and SRAM in their store don't really want to mess with an additional product line or they carry no weight with the distributor. As a result they will high ball the price or cast aspersions to discourage you from buying Campagnolo.
> 
> The major bike manufacturers tend not to offer Campagnolo. Why is open to conjecture, but Trek for example only has Campagnolo available on their Madone 6 line. As far as I can tell, Campagnolo is not available in any way with Giant. You would have to buy a Frame and Fork and configure it yourself. Related to the Instant Gratification concept, that's not going to happen either.


As for the groups I think are most equal - Campy Athena, Shimano Ultegra, and SRAM Force; price-wise (wholesale), Ultegra is $100 more than Athena. Force is $20 cheaper than Athena.

Next level up, Dura-Ace, Chorus, and Red - Dura-Ace is the most expensive. Red is $200 less than Dura Ace. Chorus is $110 less than Red.

Record and Super Record...I'm sorry, but they have no equal/peer.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

SolidSnake03 said:


> I refuse to make a purchase that is so great to me on what is basically pure faith.


Well without faith ....

But seriously, once you do get to try Campag out you will, if you like it, appreciate it all the more.

Good luck with the degree.


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## josephr (Jun 17, 2010)

DIRT BOY said:


> Not if its tuned right. Must not be riding Campy! :thumbsup:


instead of dropping chain, sounds like Campy wants you to drop trou! sorry, but I can't see the benefit in all this digital shifting crap. I can't think on when I've ever had to shift that quickly that it would've made a difference. I have downtube shifters on one of my bikes and can drop from 25 to 12 in about a second with one quick push of the lever. Save your cash!


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## SolidSnake03 (Jun 22, 2011)

ultimobici said:


> Well without faith ....
> 
> But seriously, once you do get to try Campag out you will, if you like it, appreciate it all the more.
> 
> Good luck with the degree.


Being a man of science there is no allowance for faith in any form in my mind 

Thanks for the well wishes regarding the degree


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

terbennett said:


> What does it mean when the majority of your customers, in the largest consumer market in the world, are hitting geriatric age?





ultimobici said:


> It's funny reading predictions of Campag's imminent demise based on the market in the US. In case you flunked geography, there is a world outside the US.


The US market accounts for 14% of Campy's sales, according to the Bicycling story. They seem to be doing just fine with that meager percentage.


flatlander_48 said:


> *
> Oh Hell NO.*


+11ty billion. I agree 100% with Peter Chisholm who (in the Bicycling story) said_ "I would rather walk than ride anything other than Campagnolo"_. 

As for stores which don't stock Campy, I don't see that as a big deal at all. In nearly 30 years of cycling I've never once had a Campy part which broke.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

SolidSnake03 said:


> flatlander_48 said:
> 
> 
> > "not stocked locally" I take as B/S because if you are going to ride a bike for several years, you can't wait a couple of days for FedEx? I guess when that Instant Gratification thing kicks in it's a b***h, isn't it?
> ...


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> For someone who's interested in Campy but not willing to drop $2500 on a group they don't know if they like, "not stocked locally" is absolutely a deal breaker. If you can't ride it, see it, hold it, fiddle with it, etc, the chances are much greater that the customer won't take the plunge on it.
> 
> Some part of the decision involves instant gratification, but a significant portion of it involves avoiding buyers remorse, which "sight unseen" purchases can definitely lead to.


When I in '96 left Shimano for Campagnolo I used a shop that almost exclusively did custom bike builds. I had decided to go Chorus (I _wanted_ Campagnolo, brifting was not my thing I'd discovered). The seller let me into the holy grail of the parts storage and let me look, fiddle and feel. I ended up deciding for Record Ti...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

SolidSnake03 said:


> flatlander_48 said:
> 
> 
> > If I could walk into a LBS and try campy or even just feel confident that someone could do some work on it if need be I would consider saving for even longer but I am unable to do that.
> ...


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

flatlander_48 said:


> SolidSnake03 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I don't think a test ride will tell you a whole lot. You need to live with it for a while, but that is hard to do. Most shops won't let you use an unpurchased bike for a week. Regarding your in shop experience, I'd stay away from any place that hasn't heard of Campagnolo. They shouldn't have that sort of tunnelvision.
> ...


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## SolidSnake03 (Jun 22, 2011)

As others have been mentioning, I know that, whether my emotions say so or not, I should not buy Campy when I can't get seen if my hands bit the shifters well. I don't doubt that they make an exceptional product and that I would be happy with the functioning however something so basic as if the shifters fit you well really kills it. 

As for avoid bike shops that haven't heard of Campy, that would leave me mainly without a shop to go to. Knowing that I have lived/grown up in small town mid west where tractor crossings are not uncommon I'll let you draw your own conclusions regarding whether you think the shops have heard of Campy....

Anyhow, it's ok regarding the instant gratification thing, I understand I'm not part of the "majority" regarding this considering my age


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SolidSnake03 said:


> As for avoid bike shops that haven't heard of Campy, that would leave me mainly without a shop to go to. Knowing that I have lived/grown up in small town mid west where tractor crossings are not uncommon I'll let you draw your own conclusions regarding whether you think the shops have heard of Campy....


My shop is a small shop in a small town in the midwest where tractor crossings are not uncommon. I have Campy on my bike and more high-end Campy parts in the store than Shimano or SRAM.....


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## SolidSnake03 (Jun 22, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> My shop is a small shop in a small town in the midwest where tractor crossings are not uncommon. I have Campy on my bike and more high-end Campy parts in the store than Shimano or SRAM.....


Why can't I live by your shop :cryin:


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

orange_julius said:


> But anyway, I think that at the corporate level, SRAM understood this exactly, that's why they gave away entire groupsets aggressively, to gain a significant toehold from the get-go and establish themselves.


SRAM did this when they were Gripshift. 

I remember working in a shop and the guys from Gripshift came in to show us their stuff. They were poking around the mechanics' bikes area and said, "hey whose bike is this with Shimano thumb shifters?" It was mine, the only bike without Shimano Rapid Fire shifters. The guys from Gripshift said, "if we give you a set of Gripshift shifters will you try them?" I said, "as long you put them on." I rode the shifters for a while and in six months we started selling a fair number of after market Gripshift shifters despite the manager calling it Gripshit (and he never really rode the stuff except for around the parking lot and in the repair stand). 

SRAM understands how to introduce product and gain market share. Will they be around in ten years, who knows? Will double tap suffer the same fate as high end Gripshift, who knows?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

vagabondcyclist said:


> orange_julius said:
> 
> 
> > SRAM did this when they were Gripshift.
> ...


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> My shop is a small shop in a small town in the midwest where tractor crossings are not uncommon. I have Campy on my bike and more high-end Campy parts in the store than Shimano or SRAM.....


COOL !!!

To refine what I said, it is a question of awareness. How likely is it that a guy selling at a Ford or Chevy dealership hasn't heard of Kia, Hyundai or Fiat? It's the same with bikes. Someone who claims not to have heard of Campagnolo has a large hole in his knowledge of cycling in general as the history of the company is interwoven with the sport.

I don't care to patronize shops run by people who do not ride. The same is also true for people who have no sense of the sport.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

vagabondcyclist said:


> orange_julius said:
> 
> 
> > SRAM did this when they were Gripshift.
> ...


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

flatlander_48 said:


> Please be more careful about extracting quotes. That text was not mine...


I think it's a bug in the software. I hit the Quote button in orange_julius's post. Don't be so touchy. Relax a bit. And direct your ire towards the folks who run the board. I and most folks tend not to "mess" with the code for fear of messing something up. So relax and if you still want to complain, do so to the folks who run the board. Have a nice day.


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## Otje (Nov 14, 2011)

i'll prefer Shimano Di2. Just feels better. Tested both.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

flatlander_48 said:


> Please be more careful about extracting quotes. That text was not mine...


Actually, you're the one who started the "mistake", see on post #137 .


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

vagabondcyclist said:


> I think it's a bug in the software. I hit the Quote button in orange_julius's post. Don't be so touchy. Relax a bit. And direct your ire towards the folks who run the board. I and most folks tend not to "mess" with the code for fear of messing something up. So relax and if you still want to complain, do so to the folks who run the board. Have a nice day.


It looked like a classic situation when people are trying to quote a previous message, but botch it when trying to clip out some unwanted text. They remove the closing for the quotation as witnessed at the end of your message. Yes, I am a bit sensitive because I don't want someone jumping on me for something that I didn't say.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

orange_julius said:


> Actually, you're the one who started the "mistake", see on post #137 .


The text in my messages is correct. The message that I pointed out was something that I did not send. Apples and Oranges...


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

flatlander_48 said:


> The text in my messages is correct. The message that I pointed out was something that I did not send. Apples and Oranges...


Ah yes, you are right: it was #131 that started the clipping error, that then propagated. My bad.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> My shop is a small shop in a small town in the midwest where tractor crossings are not uncommon. I have Campy on my bike and more high-end Campy parts in the store than Shimano or SRAM.....



I see a lot of Campy here in N.E. Florida, way more than I used to. But not much Di2 yet, though I ride it.

I really doubt I'll be changing back to Campagnolo to ride EPS. From the reviews I've read it sounds very good but doesn't seem superior overall.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

Otje said:


> i'll prefer Shimano Di2. Just feels better. Tested both.


"I'll"=I will, which is a future tense and "Tested both"=past tense. So English lessons are a good thing.


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