# Zipp 404, but wish you got the ENVE 6.7's



## iridepinarello (Feb 22, 2009)

I would love to hear from people who have the Zipp 404 FC wheels. I've been wanting to get a set but everytime I speak to someone, they tell me to give the ENVE's a good look. Some have gone so far as saying they wish they got the 6.7's instead. While I know many people who have 404's and like them, why do I keep getting talked out of the 404's?

Thanks.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

iridepinarello said:


> I would love to hear from people who have the Zipp 404 FC wheels. I've been wanting to get a set but everytime I speak to someone, they tell me to give the ENVE's a good look. Some have gone so far as saying they wish they got the 6.7's instead. While I know many people who have 404's and like them, why do I keep getting talked out of the 404's?
> 
> Thanks.


Zipp doesn't have the greatest reliability record; I don't believe that to be a current problem, but it sticks in the collective psyche.

Enve's the newest thing in town, so catching a lot of eyes. 

If you've paid attention over the years, Zipp has walked back on a lot of their earlier 'science' to get to where they are today in terms of aerodynamic progress. That's not to say they aren't in the better spot; just that it takes some of the shine off in their positioning themselves as experts.

All of that says nothing of substance, only to say that people's perceptions are skewing a certain direction, no matter what objective realities might be.


On the more objective front, if only just a little, look at the 'Enve factory tour' posted over on bikeradar. Where they talk about (and show) cross-sections of the various products and the results of some of their strength and durability testing, there's something to think about.

Then there's the warranty. Zipp, two years. Enve, five - plus a 50% lifetime crash replacement program. 

I'm not entering the argument to say one is better or lesser than the other. You'll likely be happy with either, and any claims of improved performance on over the other would necessarily be couched in specific condition sets manipulated to suit one or the other's minor advantages. But it seems pretty clear why a lot of eyes are looking in Enve's direction.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

iridepinarello said:


> Some have gone so far as saying they wish they got the 6.7's instead.


You should ask them why....


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

The Enves definitely have the cool factor at the moment.. 

However, I am sure you would be satisfied with both wheel sets. Both are pretty darn aero and both will make you enjoy riding your bicycle a bit more than usual. 
However, I think Enve is superior because of the customer service. In my LBS days a warranty with Zipp felt like hopping in line. Whenever I have an issue with an Enve product (which has only been once now out of all of our wheel sets) they stuck to their turnaround times and even called to check in on the progress of the build once we got the replacement part. I feel like a person when I call Enve where as Zipp may as well have a fully automated warranty system. Sorta feels like calling 1 800 WAL-MART.


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## HarryV (Oct 24, 2009)

Given how poor I have found the zipp 188 hubs I would never buy another set of zipps. My next wheelset roll be ENVEs lace to CK or DT hubs...

Here's some pics of what happened to my 2 (and only) sets of Zipp wheels... Neither have been replaced yet...

http://forums.cervelo.com/forums/t/10347.aspx


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Yikes! I thought the new hubs were better. That is pretty discouraging to have both your rear hubs have the same flange failure. 

What do you weigh, and where do you live/ride?

One big benefit with Enve is that you can use any hub you like. That used to be true of Zipp, but they aren't selling the Firecrest rims. So far I haven't heard of any odd failures with the Firecrest rims (unlike previous Zipp models), and the independent aero testing says they are the best.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

If you want soft flexy wheels, get the Enves. They are some of the worst out there, that is proven/tested.

You can build Zipp FCs up with any hub you want. Cavendish runs Shimano hubs on his setup.

I run 303 FCs, I would recommend those over 404 FCs personallly. They are nearly as aero, and lighter. The 188 hubs are still not the best out there, sometimes will get play in them, even when pre-loaded per their instructions.

So far, I've been real happy with my 303 FC tubies. Light, aero, stable in xwinds, stop great, and just feel nice compared to my deep V 50mm carbon clinchers I use for training.

If you really want a great stiff wheel, I would shell out for Mavic Cosmic Carbone Ultimate tubulars. Doesn't get any stiffer, pretty aero.

If you want the new aero design, checkout the Zipp FC, Bontrager D3 and new Heds with wider profile, they are all solid. The hubs on the later are better than Zipps.

If when either of my Zipp hubs assplode, I'm just going to replace them with a similar setup as Cavendish, like some nice Shimano, White industries etc..hubs and go from there.

But, everybody has opinions, it is really up to you to decide what your needs and desires are and what benefits each has to offer.


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## antihero77 (Jul 26, 2011)

I sell all both of the brands you have mentioned zipp enve. I will have to say I have ridden all the wheels and I actully prefer the way my hed tubbies feel way over the enve 45s or ss 3.4. At this stage all three of these brands offer a aero wheel. The diffrences imo are marginal. Just what ever feels better to you. Main thing is enve has a great warrenty and a great product. But in the end its up to you and like someone said before either wheel would serve you fine.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

zigmeister said:


> If you want soft flexy wheels, get the Enves. They are some of the worst out there, that is proven/tested.


Interesting. I don't pretend to obsess over this sort of wheel, but I this is the first I've heard this charge, much less that it's 'proven'. I've seen a lot of proclamations of stiffness for the Enve's.

I've seen some discussion of the 1.25's being not so stiff, but that's a discontinued product, and not the 6.7's we're talking about here. 

Just interested to see the source of this information.

Thanks,


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## wblas3271 (May 12, 2012)

zigmeister said:


> If you want soft flexy wheels, get the Enves. They are some of the worst out there, that is proven/tested.
> 
> You can build Zipp FCs up with any hub you want. Cavendish runs Shimano hubs on his setup.
> 
> ...


To the best of my knowledge, Zipp doesn't sell the hoops individually. The nearest I've seen is wheelbuilder.com which will build you a set using any hub they carry. So in that regard you can have any hub you want, as long as it's one they stock. However, I haven't actually seen them in stock at wheelbuilder.com for quite some time.


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## veloci1 (Nov 29, 2005)

I will contribute to this discussions a little as a person that enjoys looking into all the latest and greatest technological products in the biking industry and as avid cyclist for the las 25 years.
I have owned wheel sets from Fulcrum, lightweight , campy, Easton, edge ( now and as of late Boyd.
I have been riding a set of 2012 Zipp 303 for the last 2 weeks.the owner of a local shop owner told me that once I rode the zipps I will never ride anything else.Well, I can tell you the I let him ride my Boyds all the while I rode the 303' s.
The 303 rode well, were a descent weight and rode a little smoother than my Boyd 58 mm. Both sets are clinchers. I attribute the smoother ride to the fact the 303 are 45 mm and a little wider than my Boyds.
Overall it seems I struggled more to stay up to speed with the 303 than the Boyds. Also, my friends and I have a very unscientific method the testing hub smoothness. Two rider og about the same weight and frames line up on top of a hill close by and we start costing down w/o pedaling . As we try to be on our drops and maintain body position the same. We have done this with many set of wheels and we believe that this method tells a story.
We tried this method this weekend four times and every time the 303 lack about half a block behind. Keep in mind that tires and inflation were the same.

I do not want to make this about a brand, I just want to tell you my experience and the reason why I think most high end wheels are overpriced . you are just paying for marketing and huge profit margins for the big names.
Paying $2500 for a set of zipp carbon clinchers is absurd. You are not getting $1500 more performance than a wheel almost 1/3 of the cost of a set of Zipps.

Just my .02 cents.


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## texascyclist (May 10, 2005)

rruff said:


> Yikes! I thought the new hubs were better. That is pretty discouraging to have both your rear hubs have the same flange failure.
> 
> What do you weigh, and where do you live/ride?
> 
> One big benefit with Enve is that you can use any hub you like. That used to be true of Zipp, but they aren't selling the Firecrest rims. So far I haven't heard of any odd failures with the Firecrest rims (unlike previous Zipp models), and the independent aero testing says they are the best.


The ring may be missing. It supports the flange.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

zigmeister said:


> If you want soft flexy wheels, get the Enves. They are some of the worst out there, that is proven/tested.


Just a point of information, those Enve rims that were tested were build around DT hubs which are known to be poor for lateral stiffness. The tests you speak of were taken with the 65mm rims not the Smart rims.

It is true that the only way to get custom Zipp wheels is through Wheelbuilder.com. That is unless you want to buy stock Zipps and send them to someone to be rebuilt with other hubs, but I think that would be a waste of money.

Rim for rim, I think there are a lot of nice options out there. Also check into warranties and brand reliability.


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## wblas3271 (May 12, 2012)

veloci1 said:


> I will contribute to this discussions a little as a person that enjoys looking into all the latest and greatest technological products in the biking industry and as avid cyclist for the las 25 years.
> I have owned wheel sets from Fulcrum, lightweight , campy, Easton, edge ( now and as of late Boyd.
> I have been riding a set of 2012 Zipp 303 for the last 2 weeks.the owner of a local shop owner told me that once I rode the zipps I will never ride anything else.Well, I can tell you the I let him ride my Boyds all the while I rode the 303' s.
> The 303 rode well, were a descent weight and rode a little smoother than my Boyd 58 mm. Both sets are clinchers. I attribute the smoother ride to the fact the 303 are 45 mm and a little wider than my Boyds.
> ...



I'd probably buy the boyds over anything out there. Price/performance is unreal.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

veloci1 said:


> Also, my friends and I have a very unscientific method the testing hub smoothness. Two rider og about the same weight and frames line up on top of a hill close by and we start costing down w/o pedaling . As we try to be on our drops and maintain body position the same. We have done this with many set of wheels and we believe that this method tells a story.
> We tried this method this weekend four times and every time the 303 lack about half a block behind. Keep in mind that tires and inflation were the same.


Key word here being "unscientific." You DO realize don't you that the percentage difference between pretty much any two sets of wheels is certainly MUCH less than the variation related to factors like "*about* the same weight" and "try to maintain body position the same" etc. If you're gotten anything like consistent results, it's certainly purely accidental.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

veloci1 said:


> Two rider og about the same weight and frames line up on top of a hill close by and we start costing down w/o pedaling . As we try to be on our drops and maintain body position the same. We have done this with many set of wheels and we believe that this method tells a story.


That test will be dominated by weight and aerodynamics. The aerodynamics will be dominated by body position, clothing, etc. No way will you be able to measure subtle differences in the wheels by doing that.


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## MikeMiranda (Nov 2, 2011)

rruff said:


> Yikes! I thought the new hubs were better. That is pretty discouraging to have both your rear hubs have the same flange failure.
> 
> What do you weigh, and where do you live/ride?
> 
> One big benefit with Enve is that you can use any hub you like. That used to be true of Zipp, but they aren't selling the Firecrest rims. So far I haven't heard of any odd failures with the Firecrest rims (unlike previous Zipp models), and the independent aero testing says they are the best.


Yikes I guess I will be having wheelbuilder.com build me a set of 303 FC Tubulars


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

zigmeister said:


> If you want soft flexy wheels, get the Enves. They are some of the worst out there, that is proven/tested.


Care to elaborate?


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## HarryV (Oct 24, 2009)

texascyclist said:


> The ring may be missing. It supports the flange.


The rings both times ended up either on the road, or wrapped around my chainstay. 

Just to clarify, I like the zipp rims, but unless I build them with different hubs, I won't go there again... Assuming they get replaced under warranty, as my LBS still were chasing the Aust distributor up yesterday...


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

HarryV said:


> ...I like the zipp rims, but unless I build them with different hubs, I won't go there again...


It's possible that small changes in the design, material choice or fabrication method could have solved the problem with the Zipp hubs. These things could be impossible to tell from a casual inspection. Clearly it behooves Zipp to fix the problem because of how expensive failures like this can be to them in dealing with warranty replacements, bad rep, liability exposure, etc..


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## MikeMiranda (Nov 2, 2011)

HarryV said:


> Given how poor I have found the zipp 188 hubs I would never buy another set of zipps. My next wheelset roll be ENVEs lace to CK or DT hubs...
> 
> Here's some pics of what happened to my 2 (and only) sets of Zipp wheels... Neither have been replaced yet...
> 
> http://forums.cervelo.com/forums/t/10347.aspx


Firecrest?


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## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

Another vote here for Mavic Carbone Ultimate. I love 'em.


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## HarryV (Oct 24, 2009)

MikeMiranda said:


> Firecrest?


No, 2010 zedtechs...
Afaik they share the same (188) hubs tho yeah?


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## MikeMiranda (Nov 2, 2011)

HarryV said:


> No, 2010 zedtechs...
> Afaik they share the same (188) hubs tho yeah?


I am not sure, I did see this on zipp's website

*To complete the package, Zipp® has refined its venerable 88/188 hubset, reshaping the hub body and pushing the non-drive-side flange and bearing out by 7.5 mm on the rear hub to increase overall stiffness and strength.*


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## HarryV (Oct 24, 2009)

Yeah I just read the same, so maybe not...

I received my replacements today!! A standard 188 (steel bearing) hub laced to my old damaged rim! The Aust distributor did however supply new decals (for me to apply) to try and cover up the rim damage!! They were very generous! To say I'm a little disappointed with the replacement is an understatement!


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## Allthatflash (Jun 7, 2012)

I have the 404s one with my Powertap hub and the other a 2011 I just got as a replacement from my damaged 2010 front and I have no problems what so ever in the year that I've used them.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

rruff said:


> Yikes! I thought the new hubs were better. That is pretty discouraging to have both your rear hubs have the same flange failure.
> 
> What do you weigh, and where do you live/ride?
> 
> One big benefit with Enve is that you can use any hub you like. That used to be true of Zipp, but they aren't selling the Firecrest rims. So far I haven't heard of any odd failures with the Firecrest rims (unlike previous Zipp models), and the independent aero testing says they are the best.


:idea:

I was allowed to customize my hubs on my Zipps via Wheelbuilder.com 

The finish on the ENVEs is drool worthy, but I love my 404s. I've dropped them in so many holes I am sort of shocked that they haven't blown up.


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## Imaking20 (Mar 2, 2012)

jesdlak: can I have your bike? Please?


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## texascyclist (May 10, 2005)

HarryV said:


> The rings both times ended up either on the road, or wrapped around my chainstay.
> 
> Just to clarify, I like the zipp rims, but unless I build them with different hubs, I won't go there again... Assuming they get replaced under warranty, as my LBS still were chasing the Aust distributor up yesterday...


Are we talking about the same thing? It would have to break, open far enough to free from the hub OD (over and inch?), then move forward, and then stay open to clip onto the chainstay? Something must be wrong on the Aus side of things for this to happen to you twice. Maybe Zipp does not build the wheels for Aus distribution and the builder tensioned them too high?


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Imaking20 said:


> jesdlak: can I have your bike? Please?


:blush2:

No, but thank you for asking kindly.


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## HarryV (Oct 24, 2009)

texascyclist said:


> Are we talking about the same thing? It would have to break, open far enough to free from the hub OD (over and inch?), then move forward, and then stay open to clip onto the chainstay? Something must be wrong on the Aus side of things for this to happen to you twice. Maybe Zipp does not build the wheels for Aus distribution and the builder tensioned them too high?


Maybe not? If u want some high res pics I'm more than happy to shoot u some...

It seems they are built here in Aust. I'm currently having discussions with the distributor (via my LBS as they won't deal with me directly) as they returned the damaged rim just laced to a new hub. Not quite a suitable or fair outcome I would think. I'm now thinking of sending them my damaged frame!

In response to the earlier enquiry, I'm 6ft2, 84kgs, average 260w most training rides, and peak at around 1100w on a good day... So I'm no overweight power athlete, although it seems I may be too heavy for zipp hubs


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

HarryV said:


> , I'm 6ft2, 84kgs, average 260w most training rides, and peak at around 1100w on a good day... So I'm no overweight power athlete, although it seems I may be too heavy for zipp hubs


I'm not sure your weight is the issue. I think the catalyst of the problem comes from the radial lacing pattern on the drive side of the rear Zipp hub. Radial is notorious for stressing flanges much more than other patterns. That may be why we keep seeing so many breakage issues in this thread. 
So regardless (even if you go with Zipp rims) have them laced up a bit more traditionally into your own hubs. I think that would really solve the issues here.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

danl1 said:


> Interesting. I don't pretend to obsess over this sort of wheel, but I this is the first I've heard this charge, much less that it's 'proven'. I've seen a lot of proclamations of stiffness for the Enve's.
> 
> I've seen some discussion of the 1.25's being not so stiff, but that's a discontinued product, and not the 6.7's we're talking about here.
> 
> ...


Weightweenies, european guy who does wheel testing will attest, since he has tested many wheels how soft the enves are. Pretty sad actually for the money.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

wblas3271 said:


> To the best of my knowledge, Zipp doesn't sell the hoops individually. The nearest I've seen is wheelbuilder.com which will build you a set using any hub they carry. So in that regard you can have any hub you want, as long as it's one they stock. However, I haven't actually seen them in stock at wheelbuilder.com for quite some time.


Buy the zipps. Buy the hubs, or send them to someone to swap and build the wheels with the hubs you want.

Sell the 88/188 hubs, they will sell no problem. You will have more money into the wheels, but it will be one kick ass set of wheels.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

zigmeister said:


> Weightweenies, european guy who does wheel testing will attest, since he has tested many wheels how soft the enves are. Pretty sad actually for the money.


Again that information is useless until you realize they were build up with DT hubs instead of either Chris King R45, Tune, or Alchemy hubs. All of them would have greatly improved the lateral stiffness of those wheels since the rim isn't what was flexing (do your homework). Alchemy would be the stiffest with Tune being a close second.

Considering that those rims are available with better hubs from anyone that sells them it was a disservice to the wheels to test them with those hubs. You can even get any of the Enve rims stock from Enve with Chris King R45 hubs instead of DT and that's how they are built for United Health Care.


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## RiceKilla (Sep 16, 2009)

I work at a shop that sells both, and tested both for an extended amount of time.

I noticed the Enve's were stiffer while the Zipp 404/808 had a little more vertical compliance.
The Enve's do win in the turns hands down, the new SES 67's make your bike feel like it's on rails.


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## civdic (May 13, 2009)

I've owned the Zipp 303 and had serious rear hub issues. They rode nice but I had them at the LBS over three times over a 4 month period. I got so sick and tired of the customer service from Zipp. I had an issue with rear hub internals and then with a flange cracking. Thankfully I discovered it while cleaning. I've also own Dura Ace C35's which are great but I find them flexy at my weight. I recently purchased a set of Enve Alchemy 28/28's from Zen. Best wheels I've owned!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

civdic said:


> I've owned the Zipp 303 and had serious rear hub issues.


Which hubs?


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## civdic (May 13, 2009)

2010/2011 188, Never had an issue with the front, 88.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

So the latest model. What sort of problems did you have?


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## civdic (May 13, 2009)

A small section of the pawl came loose or was misaligned from the start and damaged the internals. I discovered it when the freehub body came loose. Zipp repaired it under warranty but it took a lot of calls by myself and LBS to get any action. Rode it for a few weeks and put 500 km on it and a crack developed from one spoke hole to another on the none drive side. Sold the front wheel and still have the rear rim minus hub in the garage.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

rruff said:


> So far I haven't heard of any odd failures with the Firecrest rims (unlike previous Zipp models), and the* independent aero testing says they are the best.*


rruff, do you remember the source for the independent test between Zipp Firecrest and the Smart Enve wheels?

Thanks.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I've never seen them tested together... Tour tested the Zipps, and the only independent test of the Enves I know about is a recent one from VN... and Zipp declined to participate in that test. The Enves won. Hopefully Tour will test the Enves next time.

In the past couple of months I've heard all sorts of reports of Zipp rim and hub failures, so I retract my earlier statement. I'd lean heavily towards the Enves now.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Rruff - do tell! I'm never surprised by hub failures, but I have not heard of any firecrest rim failures from browsing the web. 

Any details on how these rims failed? Heat, Impact?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Sorry I haven't compiled them. I don't recall any heat/warp failures but several where the brake track appeared to be cracked from hitting bumps. Often the rider claims they are unaware of any impact.


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## HarryV (Oct 24, 2009)

civdic said:


> A small section of the pawl came loose or was misaligned from the start and damaged the internals. I discovered it when the freehub body came loose. Zipp repaired it under warranty but it took a lot of calls by myself and LBS to get any action. Rode it for a few weeks and put 500 km on it and a crack developed from one spoke hole to another on the none drive side. Sold the front wheel and still have the rear rim minus hub in the garage.


U didn't bother getting it replaced via warranty? Or were u too jacked off with zipp's customer service?


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## S2k552m (Apr 23, 2012)

i know this is an old thread but I'm quite pleased with mine ... no regrets not getting another brand and pricing was fantastic.


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## LouisLu (Jul 3, 2009)

I had 2 pair of Zipp firecrest wheelset and had little trouble in rear hub, always loose one bit!
One for campy 11, and one for SramRed


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