# Very lean with upper body muscle...



## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Just noticed today at a road race (Blvd in SD) that lots of the 45+ Masters are incredibly lean (more so than the younger riders) and also have lean big upper body muscles.

Is this HGH?

It just does not seem natural..


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## framesti (Jan 26, 2009)

i heard doping in masters& that they're really competitive so...


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Wecolme to the testosterone and HGH hell. Everyman needs it because his doctor somehow came to accept that a 45 year old man should have the levels he had when he was 25, plus just a smidge more to keep his patients happy. 

I'm personally convinced after what I saw last season racing that there is no way for me to win anymore without giving into the darker side of things. 

My race scene is located in an area with lots of wealth. You can smell the money on these guys and you only have to accept the fact that there doing everything they can to succeed in cycling as well as business.

10 years ago it didn't use to be this way, it was a rag tag bunch that I raced with, but now that the yuppies are taking over, I've noticed more and more of these riders that look like something out of the terminator.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah. That's why I don't race anymore. My race season is now chasing down yuppies on training rides, and fitting in as many fast centuries as life allows. 

It would be interesting to randomly test everyone at a competitive masters race.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> Just noticed today at a road race (Blvd in SD) that lots of the 45+ Masters are incredibly lean (more so than the younger riders) and also have lean big upper body muscles.
> 
> Is this HGH?
> 
> It just does not seem natural..


SoCal Masters....Mexico is just a short drive away. 

How was the race? One of the better road races in a land of crits


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

I wouldn't be suspicious until said 45+ racers are stomping the Cat.1 senior fields too, especially if they're weren't previously Pro's or elite level in some other sport when they were younger.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

What's the payback later on? Does HGH grow tumors, too?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

David Loving said:


> What's the payback later on? Does HGH grow tumors, too?



I don't know, but I want some I kid...I kid..


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> I wouldn't be suspicious until said 45+ racers are stomping the Cat.1 senior fields too, especially if they're weren't previously Pro's or elite level in some other sport when they were younger.


 The top SoCal masters are super competitive in a Cat1 field. It would shock you


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

David Loving said:


> What's the payback later on? Does HGH grow tumors, too?


HGH is a cellular multiplier so it is certainly possible. Many think the reason why your Testosterone and HGH levels drop as you get old is it is natures way of not pouring gas on the cancer fire. 

As the number of "longevity doctors" increases the amount of disinformation on the topic also increases.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

So, someone who works out a lot is automatically doping? I hope I never drop you in a ride or race or I might end up with a thread about me.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

spade2you said:


> So, someone who works out a lot is automatically doping?


I work out for an hour in the morning six days a week. I don't do any drugs. It is very annoying when someone belittles all that work by saying my muscles come from steroids. 
The ones who say it most often are fat lazy slobs who would die if they tried doing any kind of exercise. It's a lot easier to say "I could look like that if I did steroids" instead of "I could look like that if I wasn't a lazy slob".
Also, knowledge about nutrition and training is way ahead of where it was a few years ago. I have friends at the gym who eat so carefully they would shame a pro cyclist.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> So, someone who works out a lot is automatically doping? I hope I never drop you in a ride or race or I might end up with a thread about me.


Is anyone here saying that? 

We are talking about the SoCal masters scene. "Longevity Doctors" are everywhere. HGH, Testosterone.....hormone replacement therapy all very common. 55 year old guys who are former body builders who can rip the legs off former pros and have the body of twenty somethings.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Is anyone here saying that?
> 
> We are talking about the SoCal masters scene. "Longevity Doctors" are everywhere. HGH, Testosterone.....hormone replacement therapy all very common. 55 year old guys who are former body builders who can rip the legs off former pros and have the body of twenty somethings.


So, people from South Dakota are going to SoCal Longevity doctors. LOL, totally.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> So, people from South Dakota are going to SoCal Longevity doctors. LOL, totally.


Yes.

One of the more popular doctors is this guy in Vegas. http://www.cenegenics.com/ Lots of cheap, direct flights to Vegas. You fly in and get your levels checked once. If you are over 40 chances are almost 100% that your levels are low. You then get your prescriptions filled by mail. It is simple.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

SD in this case equals San Diego.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Alaska Mike said:


> SD in this case equals San Diego.


Haha, I misunderstood Spade's question. 

The Boulevard road race is the tradition season opener in east county San Diego. 

http://socalreg.com/schedule.asp?race=Boulevard+RR


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Is anyone here saying that?
> 
> We are talking about the SoCal masters scene. "Longevity Doctors" are everywhere. HGH, Testosterone.....hormone replacement therapy all very common. 55 year old guys who are former body builders who can rip the legs off former pros and have the body of twenty somethings.


It was pretty clearly implied.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Alaska Mike said:


> SD in this case equals San Diego.


Ah, my bad. I thought his profile originally said SD meaning a state near me. 

Still, just because someone works out a lot doesn't mean they're on stuff. I'm in 10x the shape I was when I was in my teens and it's only progressing. Just because riders are older, never assume they're slowing down.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> Just noticed today at a road race (Blvd in SD) that lots of the 45+ Masters are incredibly lean (more so than the younger riders) and also have lean big upper body muscles.
> 
> Is this HGH?
> 
> It just does not seem natural..


It's usually caused by something called "work". At least most of the Masters I dealt with in Indy all had real jobs; often physical ones. Work builds upper body muscle. Cycling keeps them lean.

HTH


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> HTH


Just for clarification, does HTH contain HGH? :idea:


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## Quixote (Aug 26, 2008)

Not sure, but I bet HTC does.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Ah, my bad. I thought his profile originally said SD meaning a state near me.
> 
> Still, just because someone works out a lot doesn't mean they're on stuff. I'm in 10x the shape I was when I was in my teens and it's only progressing. Just because riders are older, never assume they're slowing down.


You have a very valid point.....but we are talking about SoCal masters racing.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Quixote said:


> Not sure, but I bet HTC does.


The team or my phone?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You have a very valid point.....but we are talking about SoCal masters racing.


CA has always been a very competitive state for cycling. While most of us tend to neglect our arms and core, you can gain that much more leverage during the final sprint with some core and upper body strength, among other things.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

In the 80s when I started racing the 35+ masters on my team were animals and would often ride the 1/2/pro race same day in the case of crits and place. Things seem about the same now, maybe with the exception of more guys hanging onto that fitness in the 45+ group.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Spade..

I don't mean any respect to you. If you are ripped like a bodybuilder and have 3% bodyfat like these guys and you have done it the natural way then good for you.

I can promise you one thing. You would be shocked to see some of these guys in the Elite Masters fields out here. 

In these fields, nearly every rider looks extremely fit...then there are guys you look at and think "Holy Shi$!"

A friend of mine is guessing that 1/3 of the field is/was using HGH (something similar?) out here at that level at Blvd.

Thank goodness I don't live in S. Dakota. Would there even be a race this weekend there? Doubt it.. It was in the seventies here on race day.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

rydbyk said:


> Spade..
> 
> I don't mean any respect to you. If you are ripped like a bodybuilder and have 3% bodyfat like these guys and you have done it the natural way then good for you.
> 
> ...


I lived in SD for most of last year. I was at the Java stop in Solana having a coffee and a brownie and overheard a discussion between a group of older riders. The topic was T and HGH and how it's affecting their riding and lives. They were all lean and muscular. Legal doping but if they can afford it and see an improvement in their lives, why not.


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## NERaceRedux (Oct 12, 2010)

bigbill said:


> IThe topic was T and HGH and how it's affecting their riding and lives. They were all lean and muscular. Legal doping but if they can afford it and see an improvement in their lives, why not.


Maybe I'm missing something, but how is this "legal doping"? 

More to the original point, lean muscle mass and low BF % does not a doper make. Typical masters riders put in 15+ hrs/wk training. Burn that many calories, control portions and the fat will fly off in a few months' time. Are amateurs doping? Of course. Is a doping amateur cyclist retarded? Pretty much. But saying lean muscle mass at middle age represents evidence of doping is equally misguided. Hard work yields results. Simple as that.


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## Buck Satan (Nov 21, 2005)

All this T speculation amuses me. I'm on T - because my levels were in the basement. I use quite a bit, and my levels are borderline "normal" now. The only difference? I don't feel like crap all the time and don't have brutal hot flashes and night sweats. I'm still just as fat and out of shape as I was before I started it. T ain't no miracle drug.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Buck Satan said:


> T ain't no miracle drug.


It is if your levels are normal to begin with...or fairly close. Think about how much better it makes you feel to get back to near normal, then think how much better somebody would feel if they were already normal then started taking it!

Then add in how much it aids in muscle recovery and it's a huge advantage compared to those that don't have access to it or use it.

The fact that it's given you such a boost shows it's a miracle drug, from a performance perspective at least.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

NERaceRedux said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but how is this "legal doping"?
> 
> More to the original point, lean muscle mass and low BF % does not a doper make. Typical masters riders put in 15+ hrs/wk training. Burn that many calories, control portions and the fat will fly off in a few months' time. Are amateurs doping? Of course. Is a doping amateur cyclist retarded? Pretty much. But saying lean muscle mass at middle age represents evidence of doping is equally misguided. Hard work yields results. Simple as that.


Not in this case, they were talking about how T helped them. Very competitive masters scene in San Diego.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> Spade..
> 
> I don't mean any respect to you. If you are ripped like a bodybuilder and have 3% bodyfat like these guys and you have done it the natural way then good for you.
> 
> ...


Yup, and the appearance is only part of it. The performance side is equally absurd.


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## ragweed (Jan 2, 2009)

Floyd Landis rode Boulevard in 2009. Might be another Paul Kimmage interview in there somewhere.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

rydbyk said:


> Spade..
> 
> I don't mean any respect to you. If you are ripped like a bodybuilder and have 3% bodyfat like these guys and you have done it the natural way then good for you.
> 
> ...


you only show up for the master race in boulevard if you are very strong, otherwise it's a huge waste of time. So there's a huge bias in who shows up. Try some of the crits doing the year and it's more of a mixed bag. still fast though

edit: I see people from out of state were there as well, making it even more competitive


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> Spade..
> 
> I don't mean any respect to you. If you are ripped like a bodybuilder and have 3% bodyfat like these guys and you have done it the natural way then good for you.
> 
> ...


I am built like a climber and that's very unlikely to change. I have about 8% body fat, although this is according to a bathroom scale, so I am not considering this a gold standard by any stretch. Efforts to bulk up were unsuccessful.

I would not be surprised with the elite masters field. It's a very competitive field. It might be unfair that certain riders are strong, can train so much, and/or they haven't gotten soft like the rest of the general public, but life is far from fair. 

I have never raced in South Dakota, but there tends to be a lot of them at some of my local races since I don't believe there are a lot of races in their immediate area. They're very hungry to race and always bring a good field. I have much respect for them.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

I hope the OP has learned that to the rest of the country, SD means South Dakota, not San Diego....

Was this topic originally in the California forum?


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## Buck Satan (Nov 21, 2005)

Wookiebiker said:


> It is if your levels are normal to begin with...or fairly close. Think about how much better it makes you feel to get back to near normal, then think how much better somebody would feel if they were already normal then started taking it!
> 
> Then add in how much it aids in muscle recovery and it's a huge advantage compared to those that don't have access to it or use it.
> 
> The fact that it's given you such a boost shows it's a miracle drug, from a performance perspective at least.


Actually I overstated its benefits. I undertook 2 therapies near the same time and mix up their effects in my head. The T basically only took away the hot flashes and irritability. A couple months later I also got put on a CPAP machine - that gave me 10x the energy and took away my night sweats. The T is nothing in comparison to getting some decent sleep. 

From what I've read, T only helps if you train hard, so these guys might be getting a boost if they're using, but they're also training hard. And as one more aside, T is EXPENSIVE if you don't get insurance coverage, and it's not easy to get, even with a blood test showing deficient levels. They made me get 2 blood tests.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> I hope the OP has learned that to the rest of the country, SD means South Dakota, not San Diego....
> 
> Was this topic originally in the California forum?


Wow. Two zingers from you. Read the OP.. Do they race in -6deg weather in South Dakota? Nope.

My post specifically says "today" as in this weekend...as in San Diego...70 degree weather.:thumbsup: 

I will make sure I send the memo to Los Angeles for you. God forbid someone refers to Los Angeles as LA. We might all mistake their poast for the Louisiana race scene...

Now..back to the OP. Are you built like a 27 year old bodybuilder and 45+? Did you miss that part too?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> Wow. Two zingers from you. Read the OP.. Do they race in -6deg weather in South Dakota? Nope.
> 
> My post specifically says "today" as in this weekend...as in San Diego...70 degree weather.:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Sorry, LA can do that, San Diego can't. There are rules, man. This isn't 'Nam.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Sorry, LA can do that, San Diego can't. There are rules, man. This isn't 'Nam.


For a second there, I thought you were referring to Lance Armstrong....

Yeh, maybe. I really did not anticipate that someone would actually think that there would be a road race held in -6degree weather this weekend in South Dakota.

Assume nothing?

I will literally spell it out for you all next time... You mean to tell me that the US doesn't revolve around me and my town?? What!? 

Note: US stands for United States of America


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

San Diego county has almost 4 times the population of South Dakota....they can claim ownership of SD. They also have beaches and February racing in 70 degree weather. 

Now who claims NYC, OC, SF?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> For a second there, I thought you were referring to Lance Armstrong....
> 
> Yeh, maybe. I really did not anticipate that someone would actually think that there would be a road race held in -6degree weather this weekend in South Dakota.
> 
> ...


Nice edit, but -1 point for missing a more than obvious Big Lebowski quote.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Nice edit, but -1 point for missing a more than obvious Big Lebowski quote.


Ignored. I get my point back I looked at that big pic you have posted of yourself racing. Congrats on being fit young man. You are not even remotely close to being in the same classification as these Hulk-type racers out here. It is freakish. I only race out west, so I was assuming (which is a big no-no) that other cities experienced this.

It's like Hollywood meets cycling out here. Also, we are only 20 minutes from Mexico, so..... Again, I am only talking about a minority of these guys, but it still exists and they stand out.


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## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

I know at 46 my legs keep on getting more cut up, but my mid section and back hold fat. I have veins everywhere in my legs but no where near a six pack. I'm now eating even less and have lost some lbs and should like like a proper doped old turd by May, but it is natural. BTW I have no problems putting on muscle mass, I have large muscles and should have been a trackie. Funny I'm blessed/cursed to have fat deposits in my pec area and look like I have a big chest as well. Now as I age the flab areas look flabby, but still ripped in the legs.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> Ignored. I get my point back I looked at that big pic you have posted of yourself racing. Congrats on being fit young man. You are not even remotely close to being in the same classification as these Hulk-type racers out here. It is freakish. I only race out west, so I was assuming (which is a big no-no) that other cities experienced this.
> 
> It's like Hollywood meets cycling out here. Also, we are only 20 minutes from Mexico, so..... Again, I am only talking about a minority of these guys, but it still exists and they stand out.


Thanks. LOL, I'm about as far as the weight lifter physique as one can get. I'm naturally more of a climber, but tend to hold my own in a TT, mostly because I recon my local courses obsessively. Nonetheless, cycling is rarely a "fair" sport on the amateur level. We're all limited by our genetics, the allowed time to train, the $ in our gear, etc. 

That being said, in a super competitive area like California, I might be a little screwed. Then again, depending on how well my training plan goes, I could be wrong. 

Nonetheless, all the dope in the world will never be a substitute for a solid training plan and lots of hours on the bike. Even though a bulky build may not seem suitable for climbing, I've been dropped by a few guys that could pass for body builders. Hopefully this doesn't happen this year, but sometimes dudes are just that strong.


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## tbgtbg (Mar 13, 2009)

My take is you know it when you see it. I generally do fairly well at my local sprint tri (mid 50s age group) but when I get blown away by an over 60 person with a bod below the neck looking like a fit 20-something, I think... genetics, hard work??? seems there's more to it than that. I like working out, but at my age, muscle growth is not happening, maintaining is the best I can do, harder work just results in longer recovery and/or injury. Man's got to know his limitations....


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Personally there's no way we can stop these riders from taking T and HGH. 

I think it's stupid for people with money and success to risk there health and there ability to make these hormones on there own if they have to discontinue use.

All you have to do is check the life expectancy of a pro body builder to know that most of them at the top rarely make it to 60, unless they got money like Arnold, who has had heart surgery how many times?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

heathb said:


> Personally there's no way we can stop these riders from taking T and HGH.
> 
> I think it's stupid for people with money and success to risk there health and there ability to make these hormones on there own if they have to discontinue use.
> 
> All you have to do is check the life expectancy of a pro body builder to know that most of them at the top rarely make it to 60, unless they got money like Arnold, who has had heart surgery how many times?


Speaking of that, I wonder why so many football players rarely make it to 60. I'm amazed since it's only cycling that utilizes doping.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

tbgtbg said:


> My take is you know it when you see it. I generally do fairly well at my local sprint tri (mid 50s age group) but when I get blown away by an over 60 person with a bod below the neck looking like a fit 20-something, I think... genetics, hard work??? seems there's more to it than that. I like working out, but at my age, muscle growth is not happening, maintaining is the best I can do, harder work just results in longer recovery and/or injury. Man's got to know his limitations....


Sure, genetics can play a role, but how much do you work out and how solid is your training plan? The local 60 year old racer I know can still kick my ass, but he rides a lot more than I do. 

I also know a guy who is my age who has no real training plan and doesn't get to ride a whole lot, but he still stomps all of us. Now that's unfair!! :mad2:


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Speaking of that, I wonder why so many football players rarely make it to 60. I'm amazed since it's only cycling that utilizes doping.


Well...You need to take into account the pounding their bodies take. Most of those guys can barely walk any longer by the time they are in their low 40's and have had so many concussions they can't count them all (assuming they can still count as a result of the concussions).

Then add in PED use (which is rampant in the NFL...much more so than any announcer/radio show host would lead you to believe) and they don't have much of a life span.

With that said...regardless of the sport...there is a high % of athletes using PED's in one form or another at the professional and amature levels. Name the sport and you will find it...including Golf, Archery, Shooting, Swimming, Tennis, Etc. The only sport I may give a break to is Curling


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Wookiebiker said:


> Well...You need to take into account the pounding their bodies take. Most of those guys can barely walk any longer by the time they are in their low 40's and have had so many concussions they can't count them all (assuming they can still count as a result of the concussions).
> 
> Then add in PED use (which is rampant in the NFL...much more so than any announcer/radio show host would lead you to believe) and they don't have much of a life span.
> 
> With that said...regardless of the sport...there is a high % of athletes using PED's in one form or another at the professional and amature levels. Name the sport and you will find it...including Golf, Archery, Shooting, Swimming, Tennis, Etc. The only sport I may give a break to is Curling



Archery? Why?


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

rydbyk said:


> Archery? Why?


The same reason for Golf and shooting...They take drugs that help calm them down and allow them to tune out distractions...thus increasing their focus allowing them to compete better.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

Yep. Remember when people were up in arms about Angel Cabrera smoking during the Masters?? Saying it was a PED b/c of it's calming effect that others weren't getting? 

Damn near everything that alters physiology can be turned into a PED somehow.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Wookiebiker said:


> The same reason for Golf and shooting...They take drugs that help calm them down and allow them to tune out distractions...thus increasing their focus allowing them to compete better.



Yep. Got it. For some reason I thought you were referring to EPO etc. My bad.. The docu called Bigger Stronger Faster mentioned a musician in an orchestra using PEDs to calm himself down. Interesting..


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Wookiebiker said:


> The same reason for Golf and shooting...They take drugs that help calm them down and allow them to tune out distractions...thus increasing their focus allowing them to compete better.


Beta Blockers


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

So, where the heck is the USA Cycling when something needs to be done for the sport? Instead of using our entry and license fees to quash regional racing organizations and to enhance their salaries and their own infrastructure, how about some random drug testing at USA cycling races? How about some of that? If they want to help competative cycling in the USA...how about working for the riders rather than for USA Cycling, the organization?

PEDs are widely used in amateur racing now....that is a given and well known by everyone involved. But as a Masters racer, I can't just go out on my own and point fingers at guys I've raced around for years who have suddenly improved by large margins, saying 'you doped' and expect to get anything but lots of grief.. We racers just have to shut up and 'know' that a significant number of riders are going to clinics and getting shot up to improve their racing results. Come on, USA Cycling...use our dues and test a few...catch em and ban em for life....


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