# Cervelo just got the marketing jump... There should have been an all-new Venge.



## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

What the heck is taking so long? The new S5 is going to grab some serious market share.


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## vertr (Aug 22, 2006)

thumper8888 said:


> What the heck is taking so long? The new S5 is going to grab some serious market share.


I don't think the S5 is really a competitor to the Venge, the S3 is.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

Maybe for logical people looking at usefulness in real world... true that they are similar in many ways..... But Im going to guess that two and three years ago, most people considering a Venge also were looking more at S5...until they figured out what I did....
Aesthetically it's like swan vs. sea slug of course, but I was more interested in the performance than the looks.
The S5 had a slight aero advantage depending on how it was measured, but it simply didn't handle as well, didn't feel as stiff laterally, and was significantly heavier... unless you wanted to pony up for VWD, which was hugely expensive.
I'll reserve judgement until i can throw a leg over one, but Cervelo may have entirely closed the gap on the shortcomings and significantly grown the aero advantage while specialized alternately snoozed and worked on the paint scheme and custom shoes for the McLaren Tarmac.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> Maybe for logical people looking at usefulness in real world... true that they are similar in many ways..... But Im going to guess that two and three years ago, most people considering a Venge also were looking more at S5...until they figured out what I did....
> Aesthetically it's like swan vs. sea slug of course, but I was more interested in the performance than the looks.
> The S5 had a slight aero advantage depending on how it was measured, but it simply didn't handle as well, didn't feel as stiff laterally, and was significantly heavier... unless you wanted to pony up for VWD, which was hugely expensive.
> I'll reserve judgement until i can throw a leg over one, but Cervelo may have entirely closed the gap on the shortcomings and significantly grown the aero advantage while specialized alternately snoozed and worked on the paint scheme and custom shoes for the McLaren Tarmac.


I hear what you are saying but dismiss it a bit. First, the new S5 being as good or better than the current Venge is unknowable. I agree with you about your comparison of current Venge and S5 btw...but will add the Venge has better ride quality as well.
But the game of one upsmanship new model release never ends. The new S5 will come out and then the new Venge will show up and displace it as the newest kid on the block. That's the way product cycles goes. Perhaps Specialized has sat on the old Venge design a bit too long but it is a great all purpose quasi aero bike with decent overall road manners unlike many aero specific bikes like the current S5, Foil etc.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

roadworthy said:


> I hear what you are saying but dismiss it a bit. First, the new S5 being as good or better than the current Venge is unknowable. I agree with you about your comparison of current Venge and S5 btw...but will add the Venge has better ride quality as well.
> But the game of one upsmanship new model release never ends. The new S5 will come out and then the new Venge will show up and displace it as the newest kid on the block. That's the way product cycles goes. Perhaps Specialized has sat on the old Venge design a bit too long but it is a great all purpose quasi aero bike with decent overall road manners unlike many aero specific bikes like the current S5, Foil etc.


All true but specialized can do better than this. This means they will be behind the curve in the NEXT product cycle and so on.
Im ready for a new venue, and now.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

Not much information on the S5 but it seems more like incremental improvements (more tire clearance and a lower head tube.) The claimed aerodynamic savings I would bet are coming from how the bike is equipped (deep wheels, aero road bars and no mechanical derailleur cables.) I bet it won't be cheap with all of that equipment. I'm sure they'll sell you one for less with more basic equipment but it won't be as aero.

What I'd like to see in the new Venge is something more like the S3. A better balance of ride quality, responsiveness and aerodynamics.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> All true but specialized can do better than this. This means they will be behind the curve in the NEXT product cycle and so on.
> Im ready for a new venue, and now.


If you mean venue as in you are ready for a new bike then go throw down for the new S5. To me the product cycle discussion is a bit silly. You likely don't ride Campy but Campy has lagged as well on updating their groupsets and have a refresh coming out in a few months. Guess what? Meanwhile Shimano and Sram have updated their groupsets. Having tested them...including a build with DA 9000, they still aren't up to current Campy level let alone the next product cycle for Campy.

Cervelo makes great bikes and in particular I like the new R-series. But all the top companies make great bikes...Trek, Giant, Look, Scott etc. Really comes down to personal preference. If you believe the current Venge is dated or doesn't measure up to what is out there which I believe is hard to prove...then buy something else.
Good luck.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

I meant "venge". it was a typo.
I just sold an s-works venge to make way for the new venge.
I'm not buying any damned S5 unless they have made shocking improvements in the handling.
I'm on a Tarmac SL4 now and can sit there indefinitely.
But really, there is no arguing with my basic assessment here, which is that Specialized is too slow on the draw with a new Venge by, at minimum, a year. At minimum.
The first one wasn't the be all and end all of aero-ness, and this is the chance to fix that.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> I meant "venge". it was a typo.
> I just sold an s-works venge to make way for the new venge.
> I'm not buying any damned S5 unless they have made shocking improvements in the handling.
> I'm on a Tarmac SL4 now and can sit there indefinitely.
> ...


Not sure if you understand the physics at play. No bike that is the end all and be all of aero-ness will have the road manners of the current Venge. That was not design intent. Narrow aero sections that cut the wind do not have the lateral stiffness of a round tube bike and they have less vertical deflection that degrades ride. That is the reality of strength of materials. Specialized engineers have been vocal about this and there is a video on line that explains the calculus behind the design which I agree with. A purpose specific aero bike will ride like a cattle truck. Over time, engineers will be able to work around these tradeoffs like the futurist Canyon which is a suspension road bike with aero properties. That is likely the future because you can't achieve vertical deflection out of tall narrow sections without mechanical advantage.
The new Venge will likely be worth waiting for. To me it arrogant to suggest that Specialized has been tardy in releasing the new Venge. Innovative products appear when technology says they are ready. The Boeing Dreamliner made from carbon fiber wasn't ready for release in the 1920's nor was the Model T ready in the 1600's....or an Iphone in the 1960's. Improving a bike like the Venge in a meaningful way is difficult. Perhaps the new Venge will be a watershed bike with mechanical suspension like the Canyon. We will see.

Perhaps the direction of road bike design moving forward:
Bikes and Tech Archives - VeloNews.com


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

roadworthy said:


> Not sure if you understand the physics at play. No bike that is the end all and be all of aero-ness will have the road manners of the current Venge. That was not design intent. Narrow aero sections that cut the wind do not have the lateral stiffness of a round tube bike and they have less vertical deflection that degrades ride. That is the reality of strength of materials. Specialized engineers have been vocal about this and there is a video on line that explains the calculus behind the design which I agree with. A purpose specific aero bike will ride like a cattle truck. Over time, engineers will be able to work around these tradeoffs like the futurist Canyon which is a suspension road bike with aero properties. That is likely the future because you can't achieve vertical deflection out of tall narrow sections without mechanical advantage.
> The new Venge will likely be worth waiting for. To me it arrogant to suggest that Specialized has been tardy in releasing the new Venge. Innovative products appear when technology says they are ready. The Boeing Dreamliner made from carbon fiber wasn't ready for release in the 1920's nor was the Model T ready in the 1600's....or an Iphone in the 1960's. Improving a bike like the Venge in a meaningful way is difficult. Perhaps the new Venge will be a watershed bike with mechanical suspension like the Canyon. We will see.
> 
> Perhaps the direction of road bike design moving forward:
> Bikes and Tech Archives - VeloNews.com


Geez you liked to argue.
Well, it's likely understand the physics involved better than most folks here, since
1) I worked for three years in the engineering department of a major composites fabricator (Grady-White), and built with my own hands a 25-foot carbon racing boat that will approach 30 knots downwind (google Thompson 750).
2) I am a life-long racing sailor, mainly on big boat, including a national championship and a couple of second places, and a long list of regional, offshore and East Coast wins, have sailed everything from mini-transatlantics to 86-foot maxis where even the toilets are carbon and was the first journalist allowed on the BMW-Oracle trimaran (see "Outside magazine") .... a craft which relies on the central physics inherent in apparent wind direction and apparent wind speed to sail at multiples of the true wind speed.
In short, I can assure you that I've forgotten more about off-axis wind, which is the kind we deal with mainly on bikes, than you'll ever know.
As to the effects of tube shape and wall thickness on the structural properties.... and for two decades I've looked carbon masts of every variant, and dealt with the best ways and amounts to bend them to shape sails, and learned what fails and doesnt from various types of loads, static, dynamic... impact etc.
OK, so thin sections ride like crap. (See Ridley Noah I, see Cervelo S1)
Thin section is NOT the be-all and end-all of bike aero. As long as we must continue to eat the BS UCI feeds us, 3-to-1 is a must, and as it turns out, it's likely that pretty good tube shapes for aero and lateral stiffness can be made 3-to-1 with the kamm tail shaping.
It is likely just as aero, or more so than narrow sections, in the off-axis apparently wind directions and wind speeds most common to riding. Other makers have done it in their current generations and apparently exceeded or at least matched the aerodynamics of the current Venge.
End of story.
And again, whether you think its arrogant or not, msot sane people would agree they are lagging a year or more on their update. I don't have to use any other judge than specialist themselves, as they know what their cycles should be, and they are well past their norm.
I think I'll use this hard evidence rather than your opinion, or any sort of their usual spin. They make great products, really the best. But they also cook up some serious BS in their marketing shop, all the more so because they know just how much truth to use in building it.
The original venge was as aero as the S3 of the time, something they didnt dwell on a lot. The new one will be better.
I were you, I'd dump the old one while resale is still reasonable.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> Geez you liked to argue.
> Well, it's likely understand the physics involved better than most folks here, since
> 1) I worked for three years in the engineering department of a major composites fabricator (Grady-White), and built with my own hands a 25-foot carbon racing boat that will approach 30 knots downwind (google Thompson 750).
> 2) I am a life-long racing sailor, mainly on big boat, including a national championship and a couple of second places, and a long list of regional, offshore and East Coast wins, have sailed everything from mini-transatlantics to 86-foot maxis where even the toilets are carbon and was the first journalist allowed on the BMW-Oracle trimaran (see "Outside magazine") .... a craft which relies on the central physics inherent in apparent wind direction and apparent wind speed to sail at multiples of the true wind speed.
> ...


Argue? I just think you are wrong and I am sharing my views. I find your boat analogy comical and irrelevant.
I see you like to use words like crap and BS to make your poor points. That's what I believe your views are on the subject. Sorry.
At the end of the day people will believe what they want and you are no exception.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

You are of course right, they are indeed opinions. And I just set out some of the things that inform them so that anyone reading them can decide for themselves what kind of knowledge and experience I'm basing them on.
It's likely folks would find that sort of background a stronger underpinning for my points than whatever you've offered about yours.
Another of my opinions is that mostly folks are wasting their time when they engage with you. You're tone is frequently negative, and unnecessarily so.
You sometimes have decent and reasonable information to share, but the tone detracts from it.
I use "crap" and BS etc probably more than I should because Ive spend an inordinate amount of time around the military and it comes with the turf. Nothing more to it than that.
If you don't understand that off-axis aerodynamics and the structural properties of things like tube shape, tube size and wall thickness are the key things in designing aero bikes, really, I'm not so much speechless as mildly amused. These things are significantly more important for modern sailboat racing, partly because the wind speeds are higher, 50 knots in some cases, and by bike standards exaggerate the effects by several orders of magnitude.... so the lessons gained there are of central importance to understanding what goes on with bike aero. 
But it's clear that this sort of discussion is wasted when we could be flinging "feelings" around. Done with this thread. Bye now.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

thread cleaned up, back to the discussion


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## johnnysworks (May 15, 2014)

I'm looking to get something new, my S-Works Venge is just getting long in the tooth.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

For aero road bikes I'd look at the new Felt AR and Cervelo S2/S3 for a good blend of ride quality and aerodynamics.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

thumper8888 said:


> Geez you liked to argue.
> Well, it's likely understand the physics involved better than most folks here, since
> 1) I worked for three years in the engineering department of a major composites fabricator (Grady-White), and built with my own hands a 25-foot carbon racing boat that will approach 30 knots downwind (google Thompson 750).
> 2) I am a life-long racing sailor, mainly on big boat, including a national championship and a couple of second places, and a long list of regional, offshore and East Coast wins, have sailed everything from mini-transatlantics to 86-foot maxis where even the toilets are carbon and was the first journalist allowed on the BMW-Oracle trimaran (see "Outside magazine") .... a craft which relies on the central physics inherent in apparent wind direction and apparent wind speed to sail at multiples of the true wind speed.
> ...


That's awesome Thumper. I'd rather sail on a Maxi than have sex. I guess at this point it will never happen though. I spent about 10 years racing my J24 then ran out of money. Not hard to do when you're chasing every advantage by buying new sails, hardware, bottom preps (sheesh, talk about expensive).


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## George M (Sep 25, 2008)

NealH said:


> That's awesome Thumper. I'd rather sail on a Maxi than have sex. I guess at this point it will never happen though. I spent about 10 years racing my J24 then ran out of money. Not hard to do when you're chasing every advantage by buying new sails, hardware, bottom preps (sheesh, talk about expensive).


I've been there as we'll. Hurricain Ivan took mine and I'm kind of glad now. I wasn't then, but 25 years was enough. My wife complains about what I spend on my cycling sometimes and I say, maybe we should buy another sailboat. End of story lol.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I agree that any gains will be short lived. Just like being the lightest bike, being the most aero is also a short lived accomplishment. There are just too many bike companies with products on the drawing board. I did notice a claim of 21 watts savings at speeds of 24 mhp, however my rides average 14-16 and I'm only doing speeds of 24 and above on declines and not usually in the drops so considering my speed and typical position, the aero benefits of a bike are lost. I could alter my body position and gain more benefit, but then again I don't push it on the downhill as I'm not racing. If I push it it's on a climb where the the speeds just get into the low double digits.


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## Wicked2006 (Jul 9, 2005)

Roadworthy got banned? Not surprised! It's his own fault. LMAO!!


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

I just wish I had you guys' budgets. The total cost of all 3 bikes I have in the garage was probably less than any single bike being discussed here. 

Fun to read, though. And I wonder if magazine editors or manufacturers' reps ever participate in these discussions?


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

I've got more money in bikes than cars. 

When my rain bike got stolen, they appraised it at $14k. I told him my bike is not worth much more than $3k and that he was cheating himself and his company for the amount of the appraisal. Yes, there was a long discussion how I was wrong, but I have had arguments with other insurance companies in the past, I lost all of them. 

Including this one. They sent a check and a new bike is being built.

I too was involved with sail boat racing, fortunately I was just the crew and paid for nothing [helped with repairs though].


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Unless you're wealthy with a good bit of spare time, crewing is the way to go these days. Like George, I am glad that I'm out of it now. I look back from time to time and there are some good memories, but its a very expensive hobby there is plenty of aggregation to go along with the ecstasy of sailing. If I ever do it again, it will be as a crew member.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

The new S5 won't be cheap. From this Bike Rumor article. A $3k difference between Ultegra and Dura Ace is insane unless the Ultegra model comes with aluminum wheels.

_Bikes get spec’d with partner Shimano drivetrains, Rotor cranksets, and HED wheels. The Dura-Ace Di2 version will retail for $10,500, Dura-Ace mechanical for $8500, Ultegra mechanical for $5500, and a frameset for $4500._


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## mjdwyer23 (Mar 18, 2009)

I wonder why they've moved away from SRAM builds?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

mjdwyer23 said:


> I wonder why they've moved away from SRAM builds?


Either Shimano gave Cervello a better price or Cervello is following the market.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

It was always smart to crew. The guy with the big cabbage pays all the bills. Depending on the boat, the hotels, the airfare... i knew one that was running a private jet.
In weird way, it can be a great sport for poor folks, someone else paying for your vacations. Cheaper than something like golf. Or cycling.


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