# Considerable difference between CAT 4 and CAT 5?



## E 12 (Jul 13, 2008)

So I'm applying to move up after hitting the pre-requisite number of starts and am curious - how much of a difference is there really between the two? I realize that CAT 4 is inherently "safer", simply based on experience alone. But as far as speed is concerned - is there a significant difference? I have been very competitive in CAT 5 with some good results....but have not been on the podium (mostly due to my brain getting in the way in terms of tactics). 75% of the racing I do is crits with a handful of road races mixed in. 

Relatively speaking, am I going to find the 4's being considerably faster? Is that "I hope I'm ready" feeling normal for the most part?


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## jajas83 (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm fairly new to this, but I was talking to some of the other racers at a cat 5 race this year and this topic came up. Somebody said that one of their friends upgraded after 10 races and the competition gets a lot harder and they went from competitive to struggling to hang on. Several of the people in the race had more than 10 mass starts, but chose not to upgrade due to this.

But what do I know? I'm still pretty new at this. It probably also varies a lot by area. Just thought I would share what I heard.


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## Daren (Jul 25, 2008)

Bigger egos, same horrible bike skills.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

You get longer races as well.. I want to upgrade as soon as possible because all races in my area are 3-4 hours away. Driving that far for a sub hour race sucks.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Longer, faster and uncut.


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## E 12 (Jul 13, 2008)

ZoSoSwiM - same for me. I drive quite frequently to race and would definitely like to be able to race longer and have the option of doing a Masters race as well. I'm just curious as to whether or not I'll be "struggling to hang on" with a simple bump up to 4, or if the speed is more or less the same with the exception of having guys in the field that have 10+ races under their belts.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Definitely longer and faster. It will be hard at first.


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

I often see cat 5s winning combined 4/5 races. Of course the better 4s are probably in the 3/4 race, so take that for what it's worth.

Another trend I have noticed: the difference in average speed of the 3/4 and 4/5 races aren't too different, but the 3/4s do about twice the distance (i.e. 2 laps vs. one). Of course these are road races, I don't usually do crits. You'll become a better rider by racing in the higher category, even if you just sit in the pack your first few races.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

I think it varies based on region. I moved up to 4 after a competitive Cat 5 season with 7 starts. I placed well enough, that I thought I could move up.

My first Cat 4 race was a mixed Cat 3,4 race. It didn't seem too much faster. Although, I went from top 5 to top 10-15 in finishes. 

Also, I had some training time in between seasons. 

My take on Cat 4 versus Cat 5 (remember, I'm a Cat 4, so it probably doesn't mean too much):

1. You don't have that guy that has never ridden in a group before...you know the one, he can't hold a line if his life depended on it. 

2. Handling skills are not that much better overall. The real difference is that everyone thinks they know how to ride and that they should tell you how to ride. 

3. There are those guys that are about to Cat up to 3, and they are definitely faster than most Cat 4s. 

4. You begin to see the use of some team tactics, albeit not always the best tactics.

5. You can begin to really enjoy racing.


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## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

It can vary a lot by area and race. It seems to me around here the cat 4's are the slowest group. With 5's you might get guys who are much faster and should be racing in a higher cat, but aren't because they don't have enough starts or they are sandbaggers. So you'll have a couple guys blow the race apart. No offense to cat 4's, but to me they seem mostly like guys who enjoy racing, but are not good enough to move up quickly.


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

Here's my experience from 5 to 4 in nc. It depends on what crits in nc you've done, but overall the races will be faster. There will be some actual attacks and some attempts to employ tactics. But you still end up with similar racing. Few are willing to risk trying a break and/or work together.

I went from always top 5 to mid pack or top third. Still trying to figure out how to employ my strengths to find a top 5. Personally, I enjoy the 3/4 fields better. Actual breaks and tactics, instead of just riding all out for a few laps then trying to find another gear out of the last turn.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jspharmd said:


> 1. You don't have that guy that has never ridden in a group before...you know the one, he can't hold a line if his life depended on it.
> 
> 2. Handling skills are not that much better overall. The real difference is that everyone thinks they know how to ride and that they should tell you how to ride.
> 
> ...


Pretty nice and complete summary. 

I think they're still inconsistent, much like Cat 5. You'll have very strategic and safe races and the next race will be a mess. My first RR of the year was a 4/5, but a majority of the 5s were spit out the back, but you could just smell the burning rubber from the excessive braking. Annoying. 

The guys who are about to Cat up are @$#^% strong. They'll make you suffer. It's about like being a rookie dropped on your first group ride.


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## E 12 (Jul 13, 2008)

seppo17 said:


> Actual breaks and tactics, instead of just riding all out for a few laps then trying to find another gear out of the last turn.


Hence the lack of podiums for me - always fighting my brain for control of my legs. I'm that knucklehead that works his ass off most of the race at or near the front only to find that I don't have enough left the last few laps. Which is why my resume has a handful of 6, 7, and 8th place finishes and nothing more. I have been trying to work on this, and know that I won't be that guy as a 4 (as in I don't expect a lot of front time when I upgrade).


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

Cat 5's have less parity in abilities. Cat 4's have more people of similar abilities. 

In our area, the Cat 4's are much faster because these groups have been bottle necked for a few years. At last year's state Crits, the 4's had 60 riders, and the Masters 4's had about 40. So there's a 100 riders all trying to be 3's. And the 3's, at the same race, fielded about 30 people. 

And some of those who upgraded to the 3's, started success immediately. So the 4's was definitely a fast group.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

The biggest difference between categories:

CAT 5 = five to ten guys that are strong.
CAT 4 = ten to twenty guys that are strong.
CAT 3 = 3/4 of the pack is strong.
CAT 1/2 = Everybody is strong.

The upper categories tend to get better with pack skills and tactics, but there is more testosterone and more on the line when it comes to winning so they are not necessarily safer races than CAT 4/5 races. In fact most of the crashes I've seen in the 1/2 fields have been way worse than in lower categories...speed has a role to play in this as well.

So...IMO, which isn't much...The difference is the higher you go the more strong riders you have, but your chances of crashing don't diminish.


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## rudedog55 (Aug 10, 2009)

In my area, the 5's and 4's are both about the same speed wise, and both have seen their share of crashes this year. For me, the biggest notice was when i raced 3/4, it was a different animal all together, much more fluid, less abrupt moves, more teamwork.

Last year i did 15 cat5 races, i had a few top 15's and a 5th

this year as a 4, i have 2 3rds, and a 3/4 second and a couple top 20's in about 7 races.
Speeds are not that much different according to my data from last year on the same course, fields are bigger, a little easier to hide, and if you go on a break in 4's, you will not be instantly chased down like it happens in 5's, so the racing is different.

If you are competitive in 5's, you should still be competitive in 4's.


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## 95zpro (Mar 28, 2010)

dcl10 said:


> It can vary a lot by area and race. It seems to me around here the cat 4's are the slowest group. With 5's you might get guys who are much faster and should be racing in a higher cat, but aren't because they don't have enough starts or they are sandbaggers. So you'll have a couple guys blow the race apart. No offense to cat 4's, but to me they seem mostly like guys who enjoy racing, but are not good enough to move up quickly.



Agreed, in my area the 5's are dangerous but faster than the 4's. The 4'sdo have better race tactics and the teams know how to setup a race.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

The keyl difference between 5s and 4s is fewer crashes. Fewer squirrely riders, fewer squirrely moves, a touch faster but otherwise a lot of the same accelerate, slow down, accelerate, slow down, etc. etc. Very few team tactics.


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## alex3780 (Nov 7, 2009)

i think it's pretty clear that there is no clear answer other than _it depends_. 

here is some data from a recent norcal crit. im the cat 5 rider and a co-worker of mine is the cat 4. look at the speed differences of the laps. i finished top 10 and my race had a fastest lap of 24.9mph and the e4 race had 11 laps faster than that. yikes.

*Cat 5*






*Cat 4*


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

alex3780 said:


> i think it's pretty clear that there is no clear answer other than _it depends_.
> 
> here is some data from a recent norcal crit. im the cat 5 rider and a co-worker of mine is the cat 4. look at the speed differences of the laps. i finished top 10 and my race had a fastest lap of 24.9mph and the e4 race had 11 laps faster than that. yikes.
> 
> ...


well, sure, but lookit how he kept cutting the course. shoulda been dq'd.


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## HiImSeth (Jun 3, 2009)

Creakyknees said:


> well, sure, but lookit how he kept cutting the course. shoulda been dq'd.


lol :thumbsup:


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