# Shimano (Finally) Launches 12-speed Road



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Thought it’d happen at EuroBike, and it did:

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Shimano launches 12-speed, semi-wireless Dura-Ace and Ultegra groupsets


Shift speed and braking improvement, D-Fly Garmin control is integrated, and mechanical shifting goes away.




www.velonews.com




*
Campy and SRAM: “What took ya so long?” 😀

But Shimano’s elimination of mechanical shifting in Ultegra and Dura Ace might annoy some ppl.

And, *no* 53/39-ish option in Ultegra anymore? I personally don’t use it, but, oy. 😕

That said, at least they put the 16t cog back into their main road cassettes (11-28, 11-30) instead of going for the 10t. That was probably a good choice that’ll make most riders happy. 🚴


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

SystemShock said:


> Campy and SRAM: “What took ya so long?” 😀


But Campy isn't wireless yet.

I imagine the hold up for shimano was perfecting wireless. Going 12sp was really no big deal, they already had that on the MTB side. 



> But Shimano’s elimination of mechanical shifting in Ultegra and Dura Ace might annoy some ppl.


That one is kinda surprising. Not that I care as I will never own a mechanical drivetrain again. But they ditched mechanical and kept rim brakes. 😲 Almost all new frames have gone disc, especially higher end.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

tlg said:


> I imagine the hold up for shimano was perfecting wireless. Going 12sp was really no big deal, they already had that on the MTB side.


For better or worse, 12spd road is a big deal... because that drives the upgrade cycle, aka cha-ching_!!_ far as the component-makers go. 💵 💵 💵


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

SystemShock said:


> For better or worse, 12spd road is a big deal... because that drives the upgrade cycle, aka cha-ching_!!_ far as the component-makers go. 💵 💵 💵


I meant no big deal.. as in not hard to do. It was already 'done'. They could've released a 12sp group a while ago, but were holding out to release it with wireless Di2.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

tlg said:


> I meant no big deal.. as in not hard to do. It was already 'done'. They could've released a 12sp group a while ago, but were holding out to release it with wireless Di2.


I know, just keeping things in perspective. Gotta keep your eye on the 'big game'.

Which seems to be... add a cog every 4-5 years so ppl buy whole new drivetrains or even bikes, and ALSO make everything more complex, expensive, and 'motorcycle-like'... hydraulics, electronics, etc. etc.

The new DA group (no power meter or wheels) is $4,300-ish. Ouch.


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## Catmandoo (Nov 20, 2020)

What's unfortunate is it's likely a very simple change to the software of existing 11 spd. Shifters to make them do 12. The derailers just move a bit less each shift, so no change require. All you really need is the cassette and a new chain. But they'll never do that.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

tlg said:


> But they ditched mechanical and kept rim brakes. 😲 Almost all new frames have gone disc, especially higher end.


A lot of cyclists have or may get rim brake frames that they might want to upgrade. There're more rim brake than disc brake frames out there.


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## stan01 (Apr 30, 2014)

SystemShock said:


> For better or worse, 12spd road is a big deal... because that drives the upgrade cycle, aka cha-ching_!!_ far as the component-makers go. 💵 💵 💵


The big one is going to be 14spd. We already know from Campy that with existing frames 13 cogs is not a problem but when 14spd comes, it will ultimately require a new frame/dropout design standard along with new wheels possibly.

And as another poster mentioned, current Di2 users are forced to upgrade if they want to go 12 because Cycling Tips addressed that point exactly in their review. Shimano doesn't want its products to be future proof. When the shelf life of that product cycle is done, they want you to upgrade.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> But they ditched mechanical and kept rim brakes. 😲


Surprising considering that the Dura-Ace line no longer has a rim brake hub.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I was happy with 8-speed.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Shimano has made some very smart choices here.

Shimano was smart to have the rim brake version of the groupset. With the 12spd cassettes compatible with current 11spd hubs, then current 11spd users can upgrade to 12spd without having to buy new wheels. This is a HUGE plus to these users and Shimano... because there would be PLENTY of current highend 11spd owners (both rims and disc, but especially rim) who would be willing to upgrade to 12spd while getting to keep their highend 11spd wheelsets.

Not going for 10t cog was also a smart (and necessary move) to keep the 12spd cassettes compatible with 11spd hubs. On the road bikes, it makes little sense to have a 10t cog.

Sharing the battery between the front and rear derailleur is a smart move IMO. This allows for a bigger battery, thus extended charge. Setting this up is something you only need to one time on a bike and that's it, set and forget. The plus is that their front mech is elegantly small. I'm amazed how small their front mech is.

And from all the reviews on youtube, shifting both front and rear, but especially the rear, is faster and smoother.

I think Shimano will be eating some of Sram's lunch if Shimano prices their Di Ultegra 8100 right.

I'm told by a wheelbuilder that Shimano's new carbon rims are filament wound, so from a weight perspective their rims should be light. The wheelbuilder told me that these same rims were actually available to wheelbuilders at least a year ago.


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

pmf said:


> I was happy with 8-speed.


I imagine you will be for many years to come.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

pmf said:


> I was happy with 8-speed.


That's what people said about 5 speed. 
And what they said about 6 speed....
And what they said about 7 speed....

But you're in luck... you can buy brand new Shimano R2000 which is 8speed. And it's way better than your 1990's 8 speed.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> Sharing the battery between the front and rear derailleur is a smart move IMO. This allows for a bigger battery, thus extended charge. Setting this up is something you only need to one time on a bike and that's it, set and forget. The plus is that their front mech is elegantly small. I'm amazed how small their front mech is.


I think its kind of a nice detail that wiring the shifters in with the battery is an available option. I do not know though what the overwhelming consumer consensus regarding full versus partial wireless versus fully wired is but to me I like the option that they offer.

The no mechanical option still has me feeling caught off guard though.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

tlg said:


> That's what people said about 5 speed.
> And what they said about 6 speed....
> And what they said about 7 speed....


I realize that for many ppl, that’s dead-on.

But, as someone who rode a double century with 6-speed back in the day, and was seemingly ALWAYS finding that the perfect gear was dead-halfway between two cogs the _entire_ ride (aka unavailable) … I can honestly report that I was never happy with 6-speed. 👎 🤬 

That said, we do seem to be deep in diminishing returns land nowadays re: # of cogs, except for maybe use in 1x drivetrains.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

craiger_ny said:


> I think its kind of a nice detail that wiring the shifters in with the battery is an available option. I do not know though what the overwhelming consumer consensus regarding full versus partial wireless versus fully wired is but to me I like the option that they offer.
> 
> The no mechanical option still has me feeling caught off guard though.


I would say every serious cyclist is caught off guard with the lack of a 12spd mechanical.
This will mean Shimano will keep manufacturing 11spd mechanical groupset for the midlevel market.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

12 speed with an 11 cog is the same as 11 speed with a 12 cog... if you don't plan on riding the 50/11 very much, which is 99% of even serious non-professional cyclists. Who do they think is buying the 54 tooth ring besides pro teams? A 48/32 option (like Campy Chorus) would have been a better choice.

I am clearly no longer who Shimano is catering to. I hate everything this has to offer.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

craiger_ny said:


> The *no mechanical option* still has me feeling caught off guard though.


This disappointed me too. 😟

AND the fact that they did this not only for DA, but Ultegra, too.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Both new groups are clear improvements, and the supply of older Shimano groups will be around for the mechanical shifting diehards. 

FYI- check out the _excellent_ Shimano GRX groups for your 11 speed, mechanical shifting needs. Really solid, and cheaper too. And you can run big cassettes for alpine adventures.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Velonews had a pretty good review on the new Dura Ace and Ultegra. My wife bought a custom stainless steel Tommasini frame last year and has been waiting for over a year for this group to be released. Looks like it's going to cost almost as much as the frame did. 

I think its a mistake to go all electronic on both Dura Ace and Ultegra. Ultegra has always been Shimano's bang for the buck group. Now its $2400. I guess they'll be selling a lot of 105? I'm glad they kept rim brakes. I like 53/39 chainrings, but I guess compact cranks are increasingly what people want.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

tlg said:


> That's what people said about 5 speed.
> And what they said about 6 speed....
> And what they said about 7 speed....
> 
> But you're in luck... you can buy brand new Shimano R2000 which is 8speed. And it's way better than your 1990's 8 speed.


That was supposed to be a joke. Maybe you should head back to The Circle.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

I have 11sp DI2.. and unless I can use the existing stuff, I am not upgrading.... as previously noted, since they are all digital, and the servo steps on the RD and FD are tiny, there is no need to replace them to support 12sp, just change the digital indexing.. Since my bike came with it and is already wired, wireless is not relevant.. and that would apply to any bike already wired. nice to have for new installation upgrades.. but otherwise not worth it to me.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

pmf said:


> I think its a mistake to go all-electronic on both Dura Ace and Ultegra. Ultegra has always been Shimano's bang for the buck group. Now its $2400. I guess they'll be selling a lot of 105?


+1. Expected them to do it on DA, but not Ultegra as well. Now Ultegra’s expensive. 😕

There’s GRX… but it’s not 12-spd. And has a worse (wider) Q-factor.


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

I am assuming/hoping that Shimano will release a 12-speed 105 groupset as a mechanical version that will cater to the recreational road and race crowd, with Ultegra and Dura-Ace cross-compatibility for non-electronic components like brake calipers/rotors, cassettes, cranksets, etc. This will allow for a really nice mechanical 12-speed build with options to upgrade. I don't think Shimano will simply walk away from its market dominance in mechanical components.

*Edit:* This also makes sense from a business and user standpoint. Having two versions (mechanical and electronic) for both Ultegra and Dura-Ace is redundant, confusing and expensive. Offering DA and Ultegra as electronic only and then releasing 105 12-speed as a mechanical group will eliminate complexity and clarify Shimano's line-up. I think the logic is that 105 will benefit from the trickle down technology of mechanical DA and it will meet or surpass the needs of cyclists in this demographic. I could be wrong of course, but I bet 105 12-speed gets released as part of the regular cycle in 6 months to a year.


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## Grog McCog (Jan 19, 2020)

When I first got Ultegra 11-speed with hydraulic brakes in 2014, it was only available with Di2 (so I reluctantly did that -- zero regrets). Presumably they still have the option of offering 12-speed with mechanical shifting in the future, should there be any demand for it. On the other hand, 12-speed might simply have tolerances that demand the perfection of shifting that Di2 enables.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Grog McCog said:


> …Presumably they still have the option of offering 12-speed with mechanical shifting in the future, should there be any demand for it. On the other hand, 12-speed might simply have tolerances that demand the perfection of shifting that Di2 enables.


Oh sure… which is why Campy’s had 12-speed mechanical for over 3 years now. 🤷‍♂️


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## shwndh (Jun 27, 2002)

Wait! I was just about about to upgrade my 3x8 drivetrain. I don't need to do anything now?


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

shwndh said:


> Wait! I was just about about to upgrade my 3x8 drivetrain. I don't need to do anything now?


Nope, 3x8=24 and 2x12=24 so it would be a lateral move, you're good.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

jta said:


> I could be wrong of course, but I bet 105 12-speed [mechanical] gets released as part of the regular cycle in 6 months to a year.


I hope you’re right. 🤞🏼


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

SystemShock said:


> I hope you’re right. 🤞🏼


Me too. And yes, I did mean 105 mechanical, thanks for clarifying. The new groupsets look amazing, but I wouldn't want to see ALL good road bikes become so technologically complex that a person of limited means could not afford one, or be at a huge competitive disadvantage in racing. 105 will probably fill the niche that Ultegra previously occupied. Once people get used to the new tiers, it will probably make a lot more sense.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

No more Shamano Ultegra or DA mechanical, then I will no longer buy anything from Shamano, there are other companies that are just as good like SRAM, Campy, and even now Microshift is starting to come on strong and probably in 5 to 8 years Microshift will probably be equal to SRAM. So if I need to replace one my Ultegra items I'll just switch to another manufacture. All good things must come to an end like it did with Suntour, so maybe Shamano will go into the pages of history as well due to them pissing off their client base...one can only hope.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

I would be willing to bet your most expensive bike that there will be a mechanical version of Ultegra 8100, and possibly even the Dura Ace 9200. These will likely appear once the initial demand for the Di2 upgrades and new bikes has begun to dwindle. Early adopters who want the latest and greatest will probably jump to the new Ultegra. People who are willing to wait a year or so will probably be rewarded with mechanical options from 105 up to Ultegra for sure, and possibly even at Dura Ace level.

I have one rim brake bike left in my stable. It's in need of a component refresh. I was planning a mix of 11 speed Ultegra/Dura Ace components, but am now pondering just abandoning the project altogether in favor of another shiney new 12 speed bike . This is partly due to the fact that I don't want to invest in new rim brake wheel upgrades, and partly due to the fact that i can go with the newer kit for the same or less money than the 11 speed (assuming I buy new, which I probably would).

I figure I can probably sell the mechanical components and possibly even the frame to rim brake die hards. =)


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

Finx, definitely a plausible scenario that Shimano could release mechanical 12-speed Ultegra and DA. The reason I thought they may eliminate mechanical from the top tiers was redundancy. It costs a fortune to manufacture and market multiple, complex product lines with only minor differences in quality. If Shimano leverages DA and Ultegra tech for 12-speed 105 mechanical, development costs are kept to a minimum. Whatever the outcome, I think Shimano will offer a 12-speed mechanical group that will be good. Call it Ultegra or 105, it will only be the name that's different.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Well this may be Shimano's solution to the cable eating shifter problem. Eliminate mechanical shifting.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

jta said:


> Finx, definitely a plausible scenario that Shimano could release mechanical 12-speed Ultegra and DA. The reason I thought they may eliminate mechanical from the top tiers was redundancy. It costs a fortune to manufacture and market multiple, complex product lines with only minor differences in quality. If Shimano leverages DA and Ultegra tech for 12-speed 105 mechanical, development costs are kept to a minimum. Whatever the outcome, I think Shimano will offer a 12-speed mechanical group that will be good. Call it Ultegra or 105, it will only be the name that's different.


And the weight.... The weight will always matter. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

PBL450 said:


> And the weight.... The weight will always matter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The weight difference will only be theoretical, since neither Ultegra or 105 12-speed mechanical exists (yet). You can develop the 12-speed 105 line to be on par in weight as the previous Ultegra 8000. With each release cycle, the differences between DA, Ultegra and 105 become smaller and smaller, with weight being the biggest differentiator. If you eliminate that distinction, there is no rational sense in keeping so many product lines. The difference then is strictly psychological – it really doesn't make a difference what badge is on your components at that point. People assume that a new 105 group would be inferior, but it will probably rival Ultegra 8000 in terms of performance and weight. In that case, ride it and enjoy.

Case in point: An ex-pro (and Ollie) having a difficult time telling the difference between DA 9100 and 105 7000 back in 2018 and touting the quality of 105. The difference between 105 and Ultegra is even less significant:


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

froze said:


> No more Shamano Ultegra or DA mechanical, *then I will no longer buy anything from Shamano*


I’ve said it before, but I can’t emphasize enough how much I think no 12-speed mechanical Ultegra, at the least, is premature/obnoxious/a mistake. 😕

12-spd 105 mech _might_ be coming next year (maybe but who knows), and even 12-spd Ultegra mech could possibly eventually be released (though I doubt it). But this is still a royal diss to mech customers.

Problem is, if you want 12-spd mech road, the only significant alternative right now is Campy… and many ppl who’ve existed happily in Shimano/SRAM world have a fear of switching to Campyland, for whatever reason.

So, it’d be nice if SRAM undercut Shimano by releasing a 12-speed mech road group well before they did.

Now *that* might hit Shimano in the pocketbook, and make them sit up and pay attention. 📢


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Shimano doesn't rule out 12-speed mechanical road groupsets | road.cc


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> Shimano doesn't rule out 12-speed mechanical road groupsets | road.cc


Did you read that article? It says that it will make only 105 as their top of the line mechanical components. Mechanical Ultegra will seize to exist after 2022 maybe 2023. Which means that if 105 will be the top of the line mechanical groupset it will no longer take advantage of trickle down technology from DA and Ultegra. And I have a sneaky thought that eventually 105 mechanical will go electric and they'll stop 105 mechanical as well leaving us with Tiagra. 

We need to be very vocal to Shamano about their plans to eliminate mechanical DA and Ultegra, if they get enough E-mails telling them to keep the mechanical DA and Ultegra stuff they could change their minds. But as far as I'm concern I see this as a move by Shamano to try make more money by forcing us to buy batteries every 3 years at $150 dollars a pop, instead of making no money on a sale of a DA or Ultegra component package over the life of the components. And the long term life expectancy of Di2 system as a whole is only 8 to 10 years, so now you have an absolutely serviceable frame but will need to replace the entire Di2 system at HUGE cost. Like I said before this all about churning money out of our pockets into theirs constantly just as appliance companies have been doing for years (just one example), so shareholders can make money.

The only thing that story does mention is that Shamano could release a new line of mechanical derailleurs, but that only comes from the editor, it does not come from Shamano. Shamano is cagey about future release stuff, so time will tell what they'll do, but I seriously believe that if we do not take a stand and bomb them with emails requesting that they keep DA and Ultegra as mechanical they will indeed seize manufacturing of mechanical DA and Ultegra because they'll see it as there isn't enough interest from buyers to keep the mechanical stuff. So I believe it's up to us to make some noise as to what Shamano will do.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

froze said:


> Did you read that article? It says that it will make only 105 as their top of the line mechanical components. Mechanical Ultegra will seize to exist after 2022 maybe 2023. Which means that if 105 will be the top of the line mechanical groupset it will no longer take advantage of trickle down technology from DA and Ultegra. And I have a sneaky thought that eventually 105 mechanical will go electric and they'll stop 105 mechanical as well leaving us with Tiagra.
> 
> We need to be very vocal to Shamano about their plans to eliminate mechanical DA and Ultegra, if they get enough E-mails telling them to keep the mechanical DA and Ultegra stuff they could change their minds. But as far as I'm concern I see this as a move by Shamano to try make more money by forcing us to buy batteries every 3 years at $150 dollars a pop, instead of making no money on a sale of a DA or Ultegra component package over the life of the components. And the long term life expectancy of Di2 system as a whole is only 8 to 10 years, so now you have an absolutely serviceable frame but will need to replace the entire Di2 system at HUGE cost. Like I said before this all about churning money out of our pockets into theirs constantly just as appliance companies have been doing for years (just one example), so shareholders can make money.
> 
> The only thing that story does mention is that Shamano could release a new line of mechanical derailleurs, but that only comes from the editor, it does not come from Shamano. Shamano is cagey about future release stuff, so time will tell what they'll do, but I seriously believe that if we do not take a stand and bomb them with emails requesting that they keep DA and Ultegra as mechanical they will indeed seize manufacturing of mechanical DA and Ultegra because they'll see it as there isn't enough interest from buyers to keep the mechanical stuff. So I believe it's up to us to make some noise as to what Shamano will do.


Good luck with that.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Lombard said:


> Good luck with that.


Not sure what else mech group devotees are supposed to do (aside from adamantly _refusing_ to buy e-shifting components/bikes, a course which they were probably following already).

Judging from Velodog’s article, it seems Shimano has firmly placed its finger in the wind as to what to do next… it’s likely that customer feedback will help decide which of the following Shimano will release to fill the _huge_ price gap between Ultegra Di2 and 11-spd mech 105:

1. 105 Di2
2. Ultegra mech
3. Both

Not to mention whether 105 mech gets updated to 12-spd, or dies at 11.

So, why not pipe up and say something? It costs nothing. 🤷‍♂️

And it may help avoid a possible world where Tiagra will soon be Shimano’s top mech group. 😳


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

SystemShock said:


> Not sure what else mech group devotees are supposed to do.
> 
> Judging from velodog’s article, Shimano has firmly placed its finger in the wind on what to do next, it seems… it’s likely that customer feedback will help decide which of the following Shimano will release to fill the _huge_ price gap between Ultegra Di2 and 11-spd mech 105:
> 
> ...


EXACTLY!!


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

froze said:


> Did you read that article? It says that it will make only 105 as their top of the line mechanical components. Mechanical Ultegra will seize to exist after 2022 maybe 2023. Which means that if 105 will be the top of the line mechanical groupset it will no longer take advantage of trickle down technology from DA and Ultegra. And I have a sneaky thought that eventually 105 mechanical will go electric and they'll stop 105 mechanical as well leaving us with Tiagra.
> 
> We need to be very vocal to Shamano about their plans to eliminate mechanical DA and Ultegra, if they get enough E-mails telling them to keep the mechanical DA and Ultegra stuff they could change their minds. But as far as I'm concern I see this as a move by Shamano to try make more money by forcing us to buy batteries every 3 years at $150 dollars a pop, instead of making no money on a sale of a DA or Ultegra component package over the life of the components. And the long term life expectancy of Di2 system as a whole is only 8 to 10 years, so now you have an absolutely serviceable frame but will need to replace the entire Di2 system at HUGE cost. Like I said before this all about churning money out of our pockets into theirs constantly just as appliance companies have been doing for years (just one example), so shareholders can make money.
> 
> The only thing that story does mention is that Shamano could release a new line of mechanical derailleurs, but that only comes from the editor, it does not come from Shamano. Shamano is cagey about future release stuff, so time will tell what they'll do, but I seriously believe that if we do not take a stand and bomb them with emails requesting that they keep DA and Ultegra as mechanical they will indeed seize manufacturing of mechanical DA and Ultegra because they'll see it as there isn't enough interest from buyers to keep the mechanical stuff. So I believe it's up to us to make some noise as to what Shamano will do.


We should send them hand written letters by the USPS. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

froze said:


> We need to be very vocal to Shamano about their plans to eliminate mechanical DA and Ultegra, if they get enough E-mails telling them to keep the mechanical DA and Ultegra stuff they could change their minds.


Good luck with that. Do you think they haven't taken that into consideration? What are you gonna do? Boycott and buy SRAM or Campy? They're going to be all electric in the next few years too.
Their business is innovation. Always has been. Always will. 
If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't.


These are the same arguments when they went from 7 to 8 speed. And 8 to 9 speed. And 9 to 10 speed. And 10 to 11 speed. What? 😲 I gotta buy different chains? I gotta buy different hubs to fit my cassettes? ZOMG
The same arguments when cars went from carburetors to fuel injection. Nobody makes an inline 6 cylinder with a double barrel carburetor anymore. They were so much easier to work on!

Shimano released 8 sp 6400 groupset 30 years ago. If that's your thing, you can still buy brand new modern 8 sp groupsets.... that are way more advanced that your 30yro stuff.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> Good luck with that. Do you think they haven't taken that into consideration? What are you gonna do? Boycott and buy SRAM or Campy? They're going to be all electric in the next few years too.
> Their business is innovation. Always has been. Always will.
> If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't.
> 
> ...


Well that's fine but there are millions of more bikes with mechanical than there are with electrical, so they're stabbing themselves in the back to ignore millions of people, why? MONEY, they're trying to force people to ditch their mechanical bikes and buy electrical ones, the technology is not that reliable for the long term with the life expectancy of Di2 to be between 5 to 8 years, then it costs a huge fortune to replace stuff unlike mechanical. You can call me names all you want but the fact is this is all about money, has nothing to do with better technology because for the long term it isn't. This isn't about adding stupid gears, gears, chains, etc are cheap, but not electrical components.

And you don't have a clue about 30 year old stuff, let me know when your new crap gets over 150,000 miles on it without repairs...THEY WON'T MAKE IT ANYWHERE NEAR THAT MILEAGE, maybe 50,000 miles max! I do have modern stuff, so don't yak on here that I only 30 year old stuff, but don't tell me the 30 year old stuff is not superior in reliability because that is false my friend.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

tlg said:


> Good luck with that. Do you think they haven't taken that into consideration? What are you gonna do? Boycott and buy SRAM or Campy? They're going to be all electric in the next few years too.
> Their business is innovation. Always has been. Always will.
> If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't.
> 
> ...


They are same arguments but to different degrees. Going from 8 to 11 speed isn’t on par with going from manual to electronic shifting or rim to hydraulic disc braking. I don’t think Luddite applies here... Electronic shifting doesn’t improve shifting. It has cool features, yes. Like selecting your gear combinations for you so you can mindlessly go up or down resistance. I’m not the only cyclist that doesn’t struggle with being in the gear combo we want... Yes, the big advancement is ditching cables. But is the motor and computer more reliable? Does the cost difference make it a better option? Is fussing with it better in ways that fussing with a barrel adjuster is? 

Hydraulic disc brakes will stop a bike better and more reliably, especially in wet conditions. I can’t imagine snow and ice riding on my mtb without the great performance of my discs. But what % of roadies will experience any performance improvement in their riding? None? That’s my guess or Ineos would have made the swap. Yes, in racing, small changes matter more than for us. But if it amounted to marginal gains, they’d be doing it. Brailsford may be a lot of things, but he is no idiot about gear and performance. 

These two improvements seem to be pure pork barrel. Are they advancements? Yes. Are they better? Probably yes, in some cases. Is the cost worth it? For some yes and for others, their gear isn’t improved enough to bother. 

It’s all very cool, it’s good swag. It’s just that neither solve a problem or really improve existing tech. 


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

PBL450 said:


> Electronic shifting doesn’t improve shifting.


The one big improvement I see is that with electronic, you can be standing and cranking hard and upshift to the big chainring. I haven't ridden newer mechanical groups enough to try it on them, maybe they can do that now.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Nice article from the BikeSnob NYC guy:

*








Who Needs Electronic Shifting Anyway?


Why this long-time cyclist is still in love with mechanical




www.outsideonline.com




*


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

froze said:


> Well that's fine but there are millions of more bikes with mechanical than there are with electrical, so they're stabbing themselves in the back to ignore millions of people, why?


As I said... it's what sells. They are in the business of innovation and selling stuff.
Why is that so hard to understand? 
Cars. Rocket ships. Phones. Computers. Bicycles. 
Do you seriously think they haven't weighed the loss/benefit of not selling 12 speed mechanical? Seriously?

And as I said.... you can still buy brand new 8speed, 9speed, 10speed technology. If that's your thing. Nobody is being stabbed in the back.

Maybe when you write your letter to Shimano you could tell them of your boycott and going to buy Sram Red 12 speed mechanical... oh.. NOT. That's only available in.... electronic.
Sram has already been 'stabbing' themselves in the back and doing fine.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> Electronic shifting doesn’t improve shifting.


Yes it does.


> But is the motor and computer more reliable?


Yes.


> Is fussing with it better in ways that fussing with a barrel adjuster is?


Fussing? lol. There is no fussing. I've got 3 bikes with tens of thousands of miles. Never fussed once. Haven't touched a derailleur once after it was setup. It shifts exactly the same on mile one and mile 20,000 with zero maintenance between.


But hey... you can still buy brand new 10 speed mechanical.








SHIMANO TIAGRA 4700 SERIES | SHIMANO BIKE COMPONENT | SHIMANO BIKE-EU


To Build Closer Relationships between People, Nature, and Bicycles. We believe in the power of cycling to create a better world as we move forward. We inspire all people to enjoy our products in their everyday lives and where they take them.




bike.shimano.com





Even 9 speed mechanical.








SHIMANO SORA R3000 SERIES | SHIMANO BIKE COMPONENT | SHIMANO BIKE-EU


To Build Closer Relationships between People, Nature, and Bicycles. We believe in the power of cycling to create a better world as we move forward. We inspire all people to enjoy our products in their everyday lives and where they take them.




bike.shimano.com


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

tlg said:


> Yes it does.
> Yes.
> Fussing? lol. There is no fussing. I've got 3 bikes with tens of thousands of miles. Never fussed once. Haven't touched a derailleur once after it was setup. It shifts exactly the same on mile one and mile 20,000 with zero maintenance between.
> 
> ...


My Dura Ace 9000 is push button perfect. Granted, I only have maybe just short of 1K on it… How is a system better than one that works flawlessly? I understand innovation and sales… Neither mean improved? I have not ridden electronic shifting so I can’t really compare… But if any system, if it works flawlessly, how is it made better? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> My Dura Ace 9000 is push button perfect. Granted, I only have maybe just short of 1K on it…


Get back to me after 20,000 miles.



> I have not ridden electronic shifting so I can’t really compare…


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

tlg said:


> Get back to me after 20,000 miles.


I've 35,000 miles on a Chorus 11spd group with nary a problem. Changed the cables once or twice in that time, but that's just maintenance.

I understand that these companies are there to make money, but I see no reason for me to give them mine to replace something that does everything that I ask of it without a hitch. Others though, need to follow the latest trend.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

velodog said:


> I've 35,000 miles on a Chorus 11spd group with nary a problem. Changed the cables once or twice in that time, but that's just maintenance.


Changed cables twice in 35,000 miles? That sure beats the 2000 mile interval I have to change a Shimano rear shifter cable.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

velodog said:


> I've 35,000 miles on a Chorus 11spd group with nary a problem. Changed the cables once or twice in that time, but that's just maintenance.


Well Campy does have the advantage of better cable life. On shimano mechanical, you'd be looking at 5-10 cable sets in that time.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Well Campy does have the advantage of better cable life. On shimano mechanical, you'd be looking at 5-10 cable sets in that time.


Yup. I had one cable that only lasted 800 miles. My latest cable lasted a whopping 2800 miles.

I am now using an Aligator 31 cable for my latest change. We'll see how this works.


----------



## shwndh (Jun 27, 2002)

With the down trickle of technology, I'll be happy to by mechanical Tiagra 10spd. I don't need a dinner plate on the back of my bike nor do I need 2x12, 24 gears. That's why I got rid of the triple in the first place. Let them continue to innovate as long as they move the older technology (that worked perfectly fine) to the lower tiers. If I was racing, I'd consider electric shifting but a bike is supposed to be mechanical engineering IMO.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I gave up on Shimano and switched over to Campy a decade ago. And that was after riding Shimano stuff for years. 7700 was a good group, and that was the last one I had. 

I can see Dura Ace being all electronic. $4400 isn't to far off what the 11-speed electronic Dura Ace costs. But $2400 for Ultegra? At my LBS, I'd say 75% of the road bikes for sale had Ultegra. None had Dura Ace. It's Shimano's bread and butter group, and they're now pricing it out of what a lot of folks want to pay? If there were ever a time for Campy to drop their ridiculous pricing practices in the U.S. and grab some market share, now is it. Shimano is making a big mistake here.


----------



## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

My R3, purchased in 2016, has a Dura-Ace 9100 mechanical drivetrain with Ultegra levers and brakes (after-market upgrades to DA 9100). Thousands of miles with flawless performance and shifting. I replaced the cables this past summer as part of a yearly tune-up, but upon inspection, saw that they didn't need to be replaced. I will most likely keep this bike for awhile. 

If I want my next bike to be 12-speed mechanical, 105 with upgrades to mechanical components like the crankset, cassette and chain would make a very nice bike. Pretty sure Ultegra and DA 12-speed will be cross-compatible for the mechanical components. 

I'm a big fan of Ultegra and can understand why people are disappointed in Shimano's decision to go all electronic, but I'm not really concerned. I still think I'd be able to build a fantastic mechanical bike in the foreseeable future. I also think/hope that as electronic shifting technology matures, we'll see prices coming down for those groups, making them more accessible.


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I pieced together a Super Record 12 speed mechanical group for less than $2K. The idea of paying more than that for Ultegra seems absurd. I only have one bike with Shimano components and even it is Shimergo (Campy shifters, Shimano drivetrain) because of the cable issues. I can guarantee that I will never buy electronic groupsets because I despise battery charging of any kind. I have enough trouble getting out the door worrying about tire pressure, water bottles, cycling gear and taping my nips!


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ogre said:


> The one big improvement I see is that with electronic, you can be standing and cranking hard and upshift to the big chainring. I haven't ridden newer mechanical groups enough to try it on them, maybe they can do that now.


Actually, I can do that with a 30 year old Suntour Superbe Tech, and with a Suntour Mountech (both are the same design) derailleur, so that is not something unique to electrical systems.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

DrSmile said:


> I pieced together a Super Record 12 speed mechanical group for less than $2K. The idea of paying more than that for Ultegra seems absurd. I only have one bike with Shimano components and even it is Shimergo (Campy shifters, Shimano drivetrain) because of the cable issues. I can guarantee that I will never buy electronic groupsets because I despise battery charging of any kind. I have enough trouble getting out the door worrying about tire pressure, water bottles, cycling gear and taping my nips!


Taping your nips? Do tell!


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Lombard said:


> Taping your nips? Do tell!


We just entered the Dark n’ Weird Side of RBR… 😮


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

As I said... "If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't."
Both SRAM and Shimano note that people just aren't buying mechanical.









Shimano 105 Di2 R7100 is coming - CyclingTips


The death of Ultegra mechanical can only mean one thing.




cyclingtips.com




*Electronic dominance*
No one can deny that mechanical shifting has a sizeable advantage over electronic shifting in terms of serviceability and often weight (particularly at anything other than flagship price points). *However, in conversations with countless product managers from various bicycle brands* in recent months about consumer preferences, *the answer is always the same*: when given the option, *so few people are actually buying the cable-actuated stuff that it’s impossible to justify keeping it around from a financial point of view*.

One only has to look at SRAM’s recent product development to see evidence of this trend in real time. 
It’s been a very different story for SRAM’s mechanical road groupsets. Despite plenty of love and loyalty from hardcore enthusiasts, it’s basically a case of the* highly vocal minority*.
The current generation of SRAM’s Red 22* mechanical groupset hasn’t been updated since its last revamp in 2013.*

From an engineering standpoint, it wouldn’t take much for SRAM to update its mechanical road groupsets to the 12-speed format....
In all likelihood, SRAM has the resources to do this, and* you’d better believe that if the demand (and profit margins) was there, the company would make it happen*. However, SRAM has clearly decided the juice isn’t worth the squeeze, and its OEM partners apparently feel the same way (though that hasn’t kept third-party tinkerer Ratio Technology from doing it on a retrofit basis).


As promised, *Di2’s shift performance is uncannily faster and more precise, it’s more consistent over time than mechanical setups*, and many riders just prefer the lighter feel of short-stroke buttons instead of bigger levers with more throw.
I anticipate that — unlike with Ultegra — Shimano will continue to offer 105 in a mechanical version, which will assuredly also make the jump to 12-speed. If only to keep OEM product managers happy, I would guess that the new 105 mechanical would hold pretty firm on the end cost, or maybe just increase slightly. Nevertheless, it seems likely that — at least as far as Shimano is concerned —* 105 will now be the brand’s top mechanical offering*.


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Lombard said:


> Taping your nips? Do tell!


Not much to tell... Who doesn't like to have some fun while cycling? 









Nipple Chafing: How to Prevent It


Nipple chafing occurs commonly in long-distance runners due to friction between clothing and the nipple. We’ve rounded up tips for prevention, such as putting lubrication on the nipples.




www.healthline.com


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

tlg said:


> As I said... "If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't."
> Both SRAM and Shimano note that people just aren't buying mechanical.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but this is just a blatant lie. You can't even find any 10, 11, or 12 speed high end (Super Record or Record) mechanical Campy groupsets because they are completely sold out. There is a tremendous demand for mechanical groupsets, they're just not available.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> I'm sorry, but this is just a blatant lie. You can't even find any 10, 11, or 12 speed mechanical Campy groupsets because they are completely sold out. There is a tremendous demand for mechanical groupsets, they're just not available.


Your lie is a lie.  
Everything is sold out. There's a global shortage on all sorts of thing. 

*However, in conversations with countless product managers from various bicycle brands*_ in recent months about consumer preferences, *the answer is always the same*: when given the option, *so few people are actually buying the cable-actuated stuff that it’s impossible to justify keeping it around from a financial point of view*._

But surely your anecdotal evidence is more reliable than the product managers of the actual products.


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

tlg said:


> Your lie is a lie.
> Everything is sold out. There's a global shortage on all sorts of thing.
> 
> *However, in conversations with countless product managers from various bicycle brands*_ in recent months about consumer preferences, *the answer is always the same*: when given the option, *so few people are actually buying the cable-actuated stuff that it’s impossible to justify keeping it around from a financial point of view*._
> ...


Your corporate overlords are scrambling your brain. You CAN buy electronic (EPS) components, only the mechanical ones are sold out. For example 11 speed SR EPS shifters are available, mechanical shifters are not.

I will be selling my Record 10 speed mechanical stuff soon, lets see how long it takes to sell...


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

DrSmile said:


> Not much to tell... Who doesn't like to have some fun while cycling?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't say I've ever had this problem, but then I don't wear bibs, just a jersey and shirts.

However, I have had a different kind of chafing with the wrong shorts and I'm not talking about saddle sores!


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> Your corporate overlords are scrambling your brain. You CAN buy electronic (EPS) components, only the mechanical ones are sold out. For example 11 speed SR EPS shifters are available, mechanical shifters are not.


Who's lying? These are all available right now.









Campagnolo Centaur 11 Speed Rim Brake Road Groupset | Chain Reaction


Campagnolo Centaur 11 Speed Rim Brake Road Groupset - Lowest Prices and FREE shipping available from The World's largest online bike store - Chain Reaction Cycles



www.chainreactioncycles.com










Campagnolo Chorus 12-Speed Groupset | Merlin Cycles


Buy your Campagnolo Chorus 12-Speed Groupset at Merlin. Free worldwide delivery available on most items!




www.merlincycles.com










Centaur 11 Speed Rim Brake Groupset


Buy your Campagnolo Centaur 11 Speed Rim Brake Groupset at wiggle.com. Our price . FREE delivery available.




www.wiggle.com













Campagnolo Centaur 11 Speed Rear Derailleur


Buy Campagnolo Centaur 11 Speed Rear Derailleur here at ProBikeKit USA. We have great prices on bikes, components and clothing, as well as free delivery available!




www.probikekit.com













Campagnolo Centaur 11 Speed Ergopower Shift/Brake Lever Set


Buy Campagnolo Centaur 11 Speed Ergopower Shift/Brake Lever Set here at ProBikeKit USA. We have great prices on bikes, components and clothing, as well as free delivery available!




www.probikekit.com













Campagnolo Record 11 Speed Braze-On Front Derailleur - Black


Buy Campagnolo Record 11 Speed Braze-On Front Derailleur - Black here at ProBikeKit USA. We have great prices on bikes, components and clothing, as well as free delivery available!




www.probikekit.com













Veloce Power Shift 10 Speed Levers


Buy your Campagnolo Veloce Power Shift 10 Speed Levers - Gear Levers from wiggle.com. SAVE 21% - RRP $137.99 now only $113.48. Free worldwide delivery available.




www.wiggle.com













Athena Triple 11 Speed Ergopower Lever Set


Buy your Campagnolo Athena Triple 11 Speed Ergopower Lever Set at wiggle.com. Our price $225.49. FREE delivery available.




www.wiggle.com













Super Record Ultra Shift Ergopower Lever (12 Speed


Buy your Campagnolo Super Record Ultra Shift Ergopower Lever (12 Speed - Gear Levers from wiggle.com. SAVE 31% - RRP $539.99 now only $371.99. Free worldwide delivery available.




www.wiggle.com


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I said SR and Record.... And try piecing together a groupset and see how it goes...

To be fair Campy is for luddites and not Shimano lemmings.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> I said SR and Record...


Sorry, there was so much Campy stuff available I couldn't select it all. But alas... SR and Record are there too.






Campagnolo Super Record Groupset 12-Speed | Merlin Cycles


Buy your Campagnolo Super Record Groupset 12-Speed at Merlin. Free worldwide delivery available on most items!




www.merlincycles.com









Campagnolo Record 12-Speed Groupset | Merlin Cycles


Buy your Campagnolo Record 12-Speed Groupset at Merlin. Free worldwide delivery available on most items!




www.merlincycles.com












Record Groupset (12 Speed)


Buy your Campagnolo Record Groupset (12 Speed) at wiggle.com. Our price $2,123.99. FREE delivery available.




www.wiggle.com












Super Record Groupset (12 Speed)


Buy your Campagnolo Super Record Groupset (12 Speed) - Groupsets from wiggle.com. SAVE 20% - RRP $3,155.99 now only $2,521.99. Free worldwide delivery available.




www.wiggle.com


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

tlg said:


> Sorry, there was so much Campy stuff available I couldn't select it all. But alas... SR and Record are there too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, electronic shifting is better because it eliminates cables? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PBL450 said:


> So, electronic shifting is better because it eliminates cables?


No, it’s better because it costs a lot more and racers use it. 😛


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

SystemShock said:


> No, it’s better because it costs a lot more and pro racers use it.


Wait now, I’m susceptible to that argument. Except, well... It’s heavier and less aero? Pure pain! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PBL450 said:


> Wait now, I’m susceptible to that argument. Except, well... It’s heavier and less aero? Pure pain!


Yeah, sometimes I forget that my sarcasm sounds pretty much like how they market it. 😟


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

SystemShock said:


> Yeah, sometimes I forget that my sarcasm sounds pretty much like how they market it.


Haha, I read it right... 

I’m a little discouraged at my group choice, I couldn’t find any of the cable eating commentary when I made the choice. Reviews were glowing. Performance matched the reviews when it was assembled. I wanted Campy to match my Italian tubes but the selection and cost were just prohibitive for no functional gain. I may have been wrong... Albeit, I hate thumb buttons But I’d do it for the sake of continuity. I may still do it eventually. 

I’m far from anti e-shifting. It’s just a solution to a non existent problem. My SRAM cables last forever. I wouldn’t make the jump just to ditch cables. That lean claim as an advantage. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Since you mention Wiggle:

SR EPS 11 speed levers - in stock
SR 11 speed levers - out of stock

SR EPS 11 speed FD - in stock
SR 11 speed FD - out of stock

ProbikeKit:


SR EPS 11 speed levers - in stock
SR 11 speed levers - out of stock

SR EPS 11 speed FD - in stock
SR 11 speed FD - out of stock

Texas Cyclesport:

SR EPS 11 speed levers - out of stock
SR 11 speed levers - out of stock

SR EPS 11 speed FD - in stock
SR 11 speed FD - out of stock


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

All of this is starting to make me like Campy more… 🤔


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

…..


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

tlg said:


> As I said... "If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't." Both SRAM and Shimano note that people just aren't buying mechanical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting that you quote James Huang.

Here’s the same exact guy in a different article:
_
*So why do I still prefer mechanical drivetrains on my own bikes, then?*

There are a lot of reasons why electronic drivetrains are superior. Unlike braided steel cables and plastic-lined housing that constantly stretch, squish, and abrade, wires aren’t subject to wear over time. Aside from periodic battery charging, electronic drivetrains are practically maintenance-free. They also don’t care if it’s cold or wet or muddy, there are heaps of customization options, they’re more consistent, and so on.

But electronic drivetrains have always left me a little cold. When I push a button on an electronic shifter, it does exactly what I tell it to do, but at the same time, it also doesn’t tell me anything in return.

I’m hardly averse to advancing technology: I’m a big believer in disc brakes, I usually prefer carbon-fiber frames, and I almost never ride without a GPS computer. 

But when it comes to bicycle transmissions, it’s just that I prefer the feel of physically doing something with my hands. 

When I push on a standard Shimano Dura-Ace lever, I can feel the derailleur moving at the other end. When I release the ratchet on a SRAM DoubleTap lever, I’m rewarded with a loud “click.” When I slam the thumb lever on a Campagnolo Ergopower lever, I know exactly how many gears I’ve selected by how far my finger has moved.

Electronic systems may work better, but it doesn’t speak to me.

There’s also the undeniable appeal in the simplicity of a mechanical drivetrain: a lever moves a cable at one end, and another component at the other end of the cable moves in kind.

I can see and hear what’s going on, and problems are easily diagnosed (and fixed); the same can’t be said of electrons traveling at light speed through a copper wire.

Yes, I know that mechanical drivetrains require periodic maintenance to keep everything in tip-top shape. Yes, I know my prized stash of Gore Ride-On sealed derailleur cable-and-housing sets will eventually run out. 

And yes, I know that in many ways I’m nursing a dinosaur and turning a blind eye to the future.

But I spent 14 years as a bike shop mechanic and still do all my own work. I enjoy doing bike maintenance, not needing a computer inside my garage, and that stash of Gore Ride-On cables is big enough to last me a lifetime.

For me, it’s like an automatic transmission versus a manual one in modern automobiles. While the former has advanced to the point where the latter is essentially obsolete, there’s a level of user engagement that comes with one, but not the other, that still justifies its existence in the eyes of the faithful.

Don’t get me wrong; I love electronic drivetrains, I really do. I have the utmost of admiration for what they’ve become, for their technological superiority, for their merciless pursuit of engineering perfection. From a purely functional standpoint, they are, without doubt, better.

But for the type of riding that I typically like to do, getting from Point A to Point B as quickly and efficiently as possible isn’t as important as how much I’m enjoying the space in between — and as far as cycling goes, my interaction with my machine is a big part of that.










JRA with the Angry Asian: For the love of cables - CyclingTips


I remember vividly the first time I rode a modern electronic transmission. It was August 2008, and Shimano had flown a small group of journalists to Japan to sample its latest achievement. As a longtime fan of various forms of motorsports racing, it was also quite a treat to have that first...




cyclingtips.com




_


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

This is getting as good as the rim brake/disc brake debate.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> This is getting as good as the rim brake/disc brake debate.


Uh huh. And we all know how that turned out. 
All the same arguments. Nobody wants disc. Rim brakes are fine. We're gonna boycott. They're gonna lose money doing this.

And nowadays.. virtually every new bike is disc (even TT 😲) . And business is as good as ever.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

tlg said:


> Uh huh. And we all know how that turned out.
> All the same arguments. Nobody wants disc. Rim brakes are fine. We're gonna boycott. They're gonna lose money doing this.
> 
> And nowadays.. virtually every new bike is disc (even TT ) . And business is as good as ever.


I have no question the industry will continue to force change… My question is simply practical. Neither change fixes or improves anything. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

We're riding bicycles, not motorcycles, and it seems that with this drive for faster, easier and more convenient that is getting lost. These are human powered machines, and it seems, to me, that the human element is being surpassed by the perceived need of the technical advancement of all aspects of the cycling experience.

It's like we're losing sight of the simple joy of riding a bicycle.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> I have no question the industry will continue to force change… My question is simply practical. Neither change fixes or improves anything.


This is true and I am in no hurry to jump on e-shifting. Just the opposite. But like anything else, older technology will become more and more limited in availabilty.

I'm sure Henry Ford and the Wright Brothers were dissed by many aa well.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

velodog said:


> We're riding bicycles, not motorcycles, and it seems that with this drive for faster, easier and more convenient that is getting lost. These are human powered machines, and it seems, to me, that the human element is being surpassed by the perceived need of the technical advancement of all aspects of the cycling experience.
> 
> It's like we're losing sight of the simple joy of riding a bicycle.


Yeah, when I get on my electronic shifting bike I suddenly become some sort of joyless cyborg.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

202cycle said:


> Yeah, when I get on my electronic shifting bike I suddenly become some sort of joyless cyborg.


You mean, like a Terminator? 🤖


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

velodog said:


> We're riding bicycles, not motorcycles, and it seems that with this drive for faster, easier and more convenient that is getting lost. These are human powered machines, and it seems, to me, that the human element is being surpassed by the perceived need of the technical advancement of all aspects of the cycling experience.
> 
> It's like we're losing sight of the simple joy of riding a bicycle.


That’s capitalism at work. After Shimano designs solid performing groupsets do you think they’ll tell their engineers to just chill or get new jobs? No way, design to make what you previously designed obsolete. It’s all about a constant revenue stream. If the average cyclist doesn’t wear out their components except for chains and an occasional cassette, how will they survive? You’re seeing a similar reaction in other areas as things such as software are becoming subscription based.


----------



## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

I was taken by surprise that now is the gate between mechanical and electric on the upper end and like others, surprised that Ultegra was part of the cut. At the same time I get it, I work in an industry that is heavily into both the competitive and recreational vehicle markets. I'm looking forward to owning a bike with electric shifting. It's going to be fun. My mechanical bikes will keep being fun (especially the touring bike). Bikes are just fun.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ogre said:


> That’s capitalism at work. After Shimano designs solid performing groupsets do you think they’ll tell their engineers to just chill or get new jobs? No way, design to make what you previously designed obsolete. It’s all about a constant revenue stream. If the average cyclist doesn’t wear out their components except for chains and an occasional cassette, how will they survive? You’re seeing a similar reaction in other areas as things such as software are becoming subscription based.


Exactly. Design for the sake of design. New products simply to feed the beast. Sure, replacing cables is a chore as opposed to eliminating them, but the tech will be replaced and consumers will be at the mercy of the software developers. Cables are cables. In the e-shifting model you are 100% at the mercy of the manufacturer. Cab,es aren’t cables and WE will tell you when to spend on an upgrade and WE will tell you when, where, how and how much $ this is going to cost. The tech isn’t bad, the model is. They own you. That’s cool. Any iPhone user can relate. 

But it’s a bicycle! A barrel adjuster will fix so many little niggles with cab,es. Sure, we don’t have maintenance niggles with e-shifting.... Yeah right. That scenario doesn’t exist. Computerized shifting and hydraulic braking are the future, no doubt. Not because they are better or improve anything, but because the parts cycle will ensure it. This crap isn’t indexed shifting. That was BOOM! Wow! Shitty downtube shifting has been fixed!!! This is the opposite... Upgrade because we are making you, and once you do, we own your upgrade cycle. 

That’s the problem with innovation that doesn’t advance or solve any problems.... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Well, my take on it...

First off, I'm not willing to call all the ppl who still prefer mechanical 'luddites'.

A 'luddite' is someone who hates all new technology no matter what. While there are maybe a few ppl in the "6-speed friction was so great, why'd we ever change!" crowd (aka 'git off mah lawn'), most just see e-shifting and mechanical as options on a menu, and decide between them on the merits.

As in:

Compnonents Makers: Pssst! Hey buddy.

Consumer: Yeah? What?

CM: Got a new product for ya. Will significantly improve front shifting. Won't do much for rear shifting since it's so good already, but still, a little maybe. Will also let you shift better under power.

Consumer: Cool. How much more expensive?

CM: Oh, like $1000. And it needs batteries. And it’s a bit heavier.

Consumer: Uhh, I dunno. If I was like racing or rich or something, maybe...

CM: What?! You a luddite or somethin’, man? Get with the program! Don't you want to use the same stuff the PROS use?

Consumer: I don't really care what the pros use. My stuff already works very well, and I have a budget.

CM: You are dead to me. And my marketing team says you're a dork that we can't spend any more time or effort on anyways.

So, yeah..... 😕

I also don't really buy into the notion that EVERYTHING that comes from the components makers or bike manufacturers is automatically PROGRESS! or INNOVATION!!

I mean, sometimes it _is_, but sometimes it's just marketing driving a trend for the sake of having a talking point and making $$.

Can you remember the early '90s, when bike makers starting spec'ing their bikes with super-narrow tires? Not just the 49cm 'little guy' bikes, the whole LINE of sizes, spec'd with 700x20, 700x19, even 700x18 tires. Remember that?

Yeah, it was pinch-flat-palooza. Augh.

Was the STUPIDEST 'performance trend' EVER, but it got rammed down our throats for a couple of years, 'til everyone could see that super-narrow tires _*sucked*_, and the industry woke up and went back to 700x23 (and 25). And nowadays, thanks to the 'gravel' movement, plenty of ppl want tires much bigger than that.

Point is, it's not _always_ about 'innovation'. A lot of times it's more like, "Gee, how can we drive more and more technology into our products so we can raise prices and demand and get higher margins and bigger profits?".

And then of course, there's just 'being different to be different', aka providing marketing talking points. Both things lead to 'solutions in search of a problem', or at least 'solutions that solve MINOR problems, for lots of money."

And bike-makers are right there in cahoots with the component makers on this, because more expensive (but accepted by the consumer) component groups allow bike makers to raise their prices/margins/profits too. Notice how expensive road bikes have become in recent years? Even before covid? Heck, even going back to the Lance days.

Point is, few ppl really want to sell you something that's relatively cheap, durable, reliable, and simple. Not if they can endlessly ram more technology in there and jack up the price... even if the benefit-to-cost ratio suffers as a result, and even if the spirit of the bicycle as a 'practical, simple, elegant machine' gets lost.

And thus 'progress' in bikes/components is the same as it is in so many other consumer-driven product fields... two steps forward, one step back, one step sideways, and a breakdance layout spin just for the hell of it.

Now, if you personally LOVE e-shifting, hydraulic disc 'breaks', and ever more more MOAR tech, great. Go to it. It's your money, not mine. But considering how relatively easy it would to sell mechanical groups alongside the 'bleeding edge, cost no object' ones, Shimano's (and so far, SRAM's) stance on 12-speed mechanical seems pretty obnoxious and $$$-myopic.

Yes, their product managers can say, "But mech doesn't sell", but that seems pretty self-serving, aka of _course_ they'll say that. They _have_ to. And it may even be true at the high end.

But I know hardly anyone who wanted mechanical Ultegra to go away completely, and get replaced by a much more expensive e-shifting-only version. And I suppose I'll know fewer ppl still who'll want the same thing to happen to 105, and eventually, Tiagra, Sora, etc. etc.

Given the aggressive tactics and attempted assaults on my wallet, you know what? Maybe those cranky luddites actually had it right all along.

Now, where'd I put my 6-speed friction shifters?... 🚴‍♂️


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## jbinbi (Jan 7, 2013)

202cycle said:


> Yeah, when I get on my electronic shifting bike I suddenly become some sort of joyless cyborg.


It is the year 2025. All bikes are now with electronic shifting. Corona is still with us. Variant zeta has just come out. It is highly contagious and lethal. The world is apocalyptical, there is no fuel left, it is mad max.

The horde is coming, but you, a longtime RBR forum member and cycling champion (nee, snob, 'what you mean you ride your bike in gym shorts?!') can easily ride the 80 miles to your second house in the country where you have your organic garden and chickens.

So you grease up your nether parts, tape up your nips, put on your bibs, fill up your water bottles with filtered water and dump in your electrolytes. You hop on your all CF bike with disc brakes and 12 speed wireless shifting. You hurry as the horde is closing. Pulling hard on your 50/12 combo you see a hill ahead that leads to your house. The horde is getting ever closer, you hit the shifters to drop into the lower chainring as the hill gets steeper and ....... nothing. Your battery is dead. You say to yourself that you could just use your finger and move it, but then your chain will rub for the rest of the ride, but no bike aficionado would ever let that happen, it is a fate worse than death itself, so you let yourself get swallowed up by the horde as you think of all those brilliant product managers at Shimano....


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

In my 50 years of riding, it seems like "the next big thing" only has about a 50% chance of succeeding. Remember oval chainrings?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> In my 50 years of riding, it seems like "the next big thing" only has about a 50% chance of succeeding. Remember oval chainrings?


Stop. The next BIG thing is Pitbulll Pedals. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

No Time Toulouse said:


> In my 50 years of riding, it seems like "the next big thing" only has about a 50% chance of succeeding. Remember oval chainrings?


You mean biopace? Didn't they resurface briefly a decade or so ago? 

Remember Mavic Zap? I had it and it sucked.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

No Time Toulouse said:


> In my 50 years of riding, it seems like "the next big thing" only has about a 50% chance of succeeding. Remember oval chainrings?


Which time?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I would be PERFECTLY happy if Shimano releases a 105 12-speed groupset. I honestly don't give a crap about buying any theoretical high priced 12-speed mechanical groupset.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> I would be PERFECTLY happy if Shimano releases a 105 12-speed groupset. I honestly don't give a crap about buying any theoretical high priced 12-speed mechanical groupset.


What if the only 105 12-speed released is a relatively high-priced 105 Di2?

Or is that the product you’re hoping for?


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

SystemShock said:


> What if the only 105 12-speed released is a relatively high-priced 105 Di2?


Spoke to an owner of an LBS here in Brooklyn a week ago – he expects 105 12-speed mechanical to be released in the coming months. He sounded confident and matter-of-fact as he told me. 

I'd be pretty surprised if Shimano simply walks away from market dominance of mechanical groups that are spec'd on mid-level stock bikes (~$3K price point). It would leave a huge gap in the market that SRAM would be able to exploit (faster than Campy, as they have more manufacturing and marketing muscle).


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

jta said:


> Spoke to an owner of an LBS here in Brooklyn a week ago – he expects 105 12-speed mechanical to be released in the coming months. He sounded confident and matter-of-fact as he told me.
> 
> I'd be pretty surprised if Shimano simply walks away from market dominance of mechanical groups that are spec'd on mid-level stock bikes (~$3K price point). It would leave a huge gap in the market that SRAM would be able to exploit (faster than Campy, as they have more manufacturing and marketing muscle).


Yeah, but the Campy stuff is so much better. 

I think its a huge mistake to walk away from mechanical groups and have 105 and below be the only alternative. My guess is Ultegra and Dura Ace will eventually have mechanical options, after Shimano first tries to saturate their market with electronic only alternatives. This is a marketing ploy. And a good reason not to buy their stuff.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

pmf said:


> Yeah, but the Campy stuff is so much better.
> 
> I think its a huge mistake to walk away from mechanical groups and have 105 and below be the only alternative. My guess is Ultegra and Dura Ace will eventually have mechanical options, after Shimano first tries to saturate their market with electronic only alternatives. This is a marketing ploy. And a good reason not to buy their stuff.


Sram RED walked away from mechanical several years ago. SRAM’s Red 22 mechanical groupset hasn’t been updated since *2013*... 8yrs ago. There is no Red mechanical 12 speed. Marketing ploy?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Some want\prefer mechanical, others electric; no accounting for taste.


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

pmf said:


> Yeah, but the Campy stuff is so much better.


All the Shimano vs. Campy (vs. SRAM) talk on this thread led me to this interesting interview with CEO Davide Campagnolo. Campy is privately held and apparently still family owned. It sheds a little light on what Campagnolo is doing to navigate current trends, including the pandemic.









Davide Campagnolo: “The biggest challenge is to guess where this trend is heading”


VICENZA, Italy – Italian component manufacturers, Campagnolo and Fulcrum, both experienced a surge in demand as a result of the unprecedented growth in the Italian market after the first lock-down. Davide Campagnolo is CEO of the Fulcrum brand but also involved at various levels in the...




www.bike-eu.com





Campagnolo seems to be aware of their strengths and weaknesses, including the need to invest in tech, R&D, personnel and communications platforms (brand value) to stay competitive.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> Hydraulic disc brakes will stop a bike better and more reliably, especially in wet conditions. I can’t imagine snow and ice riding on my mtb without the great performance of my discs. But what % of roadies will experience any performance improvement in their riding? None? That’s my guess or Ineos would have made the swap.


Ineos made the swap to disc.









After years of reluctance, Ineos has finally given in to Big Disc - CyclingTips


The British WorldTour team will be using disc brakes in a UCI race this week.




cyclingtips.com


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

tlg said:


> Sram RED walked away from mechanical several years ago. SRAM’s Red 22 mechanical groupset hasn’t been updated since *2013*... 8yrs ago. There is no Red mechanical 12 speed. Marketing ploy?


Nothing gimmicky from my perspective. SRAM brings products to market in a very strategic manner, which is why they've been able to make inroads against legacy brands like Shimano and Campy. Shimano's method of releasing products is well reasoned, too, but a completely different animal as a publicly traded company with $3 billion in yearly revenue.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Shimano will release a 105 12speed mechanical, and it will be a good one, because it will be trickled down from their 12speed XTR stuff. Shimano wouldn't have spent too much time nor money for R&D. So even though it may be "105" level groupset, it might as well be XTR. Shimano will be even more dominant.


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## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm OK with 12 speeds, but could someone please make an aesthetically pleasing silver version? Ugh, the cranks!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

GirchyGirchy said:


> I'm OK with 12 speeds, but could someone please make an aesthetically pleasing silver version? Ugh, the cranks!


Remember how great Campy C-Record cranks looked, BITD? Sigh. 💕 

It’s really too bad Campy discontinued Athena a few years back… the aesthetics were pretty nice there too, at least in silver.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

Ridden plenty of e-shifting bikes & of course there are many being ridden in local group/club rides. I have seen no reason to "upgrade" short of being forced to (due to no mechanical option on new upper-end road bikes). Well-tuned, both recent mechanical and e-systems shift excellently. Poorly tuned/maintained both can shift like crap- or malfunction. Both (when properly set up) shift in the snap of a finger....a fraction of a crank turn moving the chain up/down. Both can (and rarely do) drop a chain when not set up right. The notion that (properly set up) Di2 shifts SO much faster/crisper than DA/Ultegra mechanical is, in my experience, marketing BS.....much like the industry push to narrow/wheels back in the '90s. 

I have no doubt that there remains a significant market for mechanical shifting to exist along with e-shifting. I have no doubt that the higher-level (Ult/DA) mechanical shifting sales decline has been due to an asymmetric drop in supply. (I had to use 105 11sp shifters on a groupo upgrade last year (pre-COVID) after I could not find new Ult/DA mech shifters in stock either locally or on-line at the time). I also have no doubt that the upper-end mechanical shift market void WILL be filled by other manufacturer(s) if indeed Shimano remains out of that market. If only because of the current huge price gap between mech 105 and Ult Di2.


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