# Is the new Dogma 100% made in Italy ??



## nicensleazy

Just wondered if anyone could answer the question if the new Dogma is 100% made in Italy??


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## Rubber Lizard

Nope, Pinarello doesn't make any bikes in Italy anymore and really hasn't for a long time. The frames are painted in Italy, and that's about it. 
The Magnesium Dogma was their last Italian made bicycle. Everything else went overseas years ago. 
Get this thread ready for a flood of people lamenting the demise of Italian manufacturing just like every other "where's my bike made thread"!


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## nicensleazy

Well I think it is a great shame. When you are buying into this whole Italain thing then one should expect the bike or a large percentage of the bike to be made in the country of origin. Otherwise, you are just buying a name. If Colnago can still produce their flagship EPS in Italy, why can't Pinarello. I'm sure the guys in the far east do a splendid job, but its just not 100 % Italian. When I owned an MV Agusta motorcycle I actually visited the factory in Varese, it was great expereince and one I will never forget! Taking into consideration the production/labour costs in the far east, when they are asking £3,500 per frame, Pinarello are making big profits. An Italian name on a far east frame just makes the whole experience for me cheap and not a thoroughbred Italain racing frame. As I said before, if Colnago and De Rosa can still make in Italy, why not Pinarello!


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## rhauft

*once again...*

Pinarello's like all monocoque c/f frames are made in Taiwan. 
All Colnago and Derosa c/f that are made in Italy are lugged. I assume, by now you know this and you're just trolling.


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## nicensleazy

Nope.....I thought perhaps the Pinarello top end frames were made in Italy.


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## nicensleazy

I have just spoken with Pinarello UK today.....they state that the new Dogma frame is in fact 100% made in Italy!


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## dave2pvd

nicensleazy said:


> I have just spoken with Pinarello UK today.....they state that the new Dogma frame is in fact 100% made in Italy!


And that's what the sticker says. You should research what 'Made in Italy' actually means. It doesn't mean 100% made in Italy. In fact, most of the effort can take place elsewhere. The majority of the value-added work needs to be done in the country that it is 'Made in..'. Like painting. By $150/hr painters.

Many Fiats and Alfas are made outside of Italy. Are they still Italian? Closer to home (or not), how many Chevys sold in the USA are made in the USA? 

OK, done flogging the dead horse for now. Until next time....


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## Getoutandride

As dave mentioned, in order to comply with regulations a certain percentage of work has to be done in the stated country (percentage by monetary value). The Taiwanese factories are very cheap to run, materials are cheaply sourced on the asian market so production there is cheap for the basic frame. 

Then once in Italy, in order to make them 'Italian made' decal appliers, painters, inspectors and pre assembly builders are well paid in order to let the frames be sold as "Italian made". 

If a shop has told you that is wrong then they are incorrect, there are numerous videos on youtube ect showing sneak views of asian Pinarello factories


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## nicensleazy

Ah.......I just spoke to the MD of Pinarello UK today and he said the bike is indeed made in the far east and sorry for any mis-information.


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## merckxman

see:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/fatta-da-pinarello-but-made-intaiwan.html


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## dave2pvd

I would also be very wary of the former old-school manufacturers that may be simply re-badging low end Meridas, or whatever. Research _the weight_ and relative stiffness of what you are buying before you spend (many reputable manufacturers publish such info). You might just think that the Prince or Dogma are the bee's knees, but other than looks, how do you know if it is of high quality? There are lots of low modulus carbon fiber bikes out there that would be better used as boat anchors.


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## proy

dave2pvd said:


> I would also be very wary of the former old-school manufacturers that may be simply re-badging low end Meridas, or whatever. Research _the weight_ and relative stiffness of what you are buying before you spend (many reputable manufacturers publish such info). You might just think that the Prince or Dogma are the bee's knees, but other than looks, how do you know if it is of high quality? There are lots of low modulus carbon fiber bikes out there that would be better used as boat anchors.


How would you know?

You mean other than having won Bicycling Magazine's Race Bike of the Year award three years running. You mean other than that?


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## dave2pvd

proy said:


> How would you know?
> 
> You mean other than having won Bicycling Magazine's Race Bike of the Year award three years running. You mean other than that?



proy, I'm sure your Prince is not a boat anchor. My advice was meant_ in general_.


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## nicensleazy

merckxman said:


> see:
> http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/fatta-da-pinarello-but-made-intaiwan.html




Nice find.

I won't be rushing out to buy this far east frame. I just wonder how many people would part with £3,500 if the frame were called 'Taiwan Sport' for instance. I think its a bit of a smack in the face to people like Colnago and De Rosa, when these names place ' made in Italy' on them because they have been painted in Italy, when Colnago and De Rosa top frames are still made 100% in Italy.


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## rhauft

nicensleazy said:


> Nice find.
> I won't be rushing out to buy this far east frame...


All of Treviso (& Taiwan) are devastated with the loss of your business.  

Regardless of where Pinorellos are manufactured, they are technically superior in design, materials & engineering to your tube & lug Colnago & De Rosa IMHO YMMV.


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## nicensleazy

rhauft said:


> All of Treviso (& Taiwan) are devastated with the loss of your business.
> 
> Regardless of where Pinorellos are manufactured, they are technically superior in design, materials & engineering to your tube & lug Colnago & De Rosa IMHO YMMV.




There you go....try to have a sensible discussion about frame making and you get some muppet that comes along with snow blindness and just makes some crass statement!


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## rhauft

*Pot, Kettle, Black*



nicensleazy said:


> There you go....try to have a sensible discussion about frame making and you get some muppet that comes along with snow blindness and just makes some crass statement!


Sensible, You? Ever since you offed your Paris for a Colnago you've been trying your best to substantiate it by coming in here with all your bluster, trying to expose this breaking scandal of where Pinarellos (and all monocoque frames) are manufactured. 

Whether they be constructed of Torrayca 46HM3K (Paris) 50HM1K (Prince) or 60HM1K (Dogma), they are the most advanced carbon composites available anywhere in the world. 

Italian design + Japanese materials + Taiwanese monocoque engineering = state of the art design & execution. 

...and they ride really sweet too! :thumbsup:


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## nicensleazy

rhauft said:


> Sensible, You? Ever since you offed your Paris for a Colnago you've been trying your best to substantiate it by coming in here with all your bluster, trying to expose this breaking scandal of where Pinarellos (and all monocoque frames) are manufactured.
> 
> Whether they be constructed of Torrayca 46HM3K (Paris) 50HM1K (Prince) or 60HM1K (Dogma), they are the most advanced carbon composites available anywhere in the world.
> 
> Italian design + Japanese materials + Taiwanese monocoque engineering = state of the art design & execution.
> 
> ...and they ride really sweet too! :thumbsup:



Yep...you keep telling yourself that! I would agree, the Dogma is a very good looking frame and built with great carbon.......but its not 100% made in Italy. Now, there are many who are not that bothered where its made, but for me, to be a fine Italian race frame, then it must be made in Italy. 

You can just imagine the following scenario,


Hells Angle walks into his local Harley dealership and says to the guy behind the desk, "Hi man, Ive come to pick up my 'Fat Boy' Harley Davidson"

The sales guy then states, " yeah no problem its just ready for you.......and by the way, I forgot to mention when I sold you the bike, Harley is now made Taiwan and not in Milwaukee "


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## dave2pvd

And.....here's a pic of an Italian Harley Davidson:










Damned globalization!


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## nicensleazy

Great stuff....did you know, Harley have just bought MV Agusta


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## rhauft

Perhaps an Asian Built Harley Davidson would'nt leak quite so much on your garage floor...
On the subject of motoring: 
Is a Mercedes Benz really a German car when its manufactured in Alabama?
BMW's built in South Carolina?
Toyota's made in Indiana? 
Honda's made in Ohio?

What about my beloved Mini Cooper JCW S? Is it a German car manufactured in the UK?
Or a British car owned by a German Co (BMW)?

It's a world market.
I'll take this opportunity to shamelessly pimp my Ger/UK/ Brazilian ride


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## ClassicSteel71

Do clowns roll out of that thing at the circus? That is hilarious.


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## ClassicSteel71

I don't know where it's made, but I rode one today and it was damn nice. Not the first frame i'd spend 6k on but damn nice.


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## Richieg

rhauft said:


> All of Treviso (& Taiwan) are devastated with the loss of your business.
> 
> Regardless of where Pinorellos are manufactured, they are technically superior in design, materials & engineering to your tube & lug Colnago & De Rosa IMHO YMMV.


 Pinarello makes a nice bike, but just because something is luged, doen't mean it's outdated. I have a luged Time RXR and I can tell you, nothing Pinarello makes compares to the qualitly of this frame. Pinarello is a very good bike, but their not the best when it comes to manufacturing. But hey, I wouldn't mind having a new Dogma, it's a really nice frame.


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## rhauft

ClassicSteel71 said:


> Do clowns roll out of that thing at the circus? That is hilarious.


Just two clowns. We actually own 'his & hers' clown cars


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## rhauft

Richieg said:


> Pinarello makes a nice bike, but just because something is luged, doen't mean it's outdated. I have a luged Time RXR and I can tell you, nothing Pinarello makes compares to the qualitly of this frame. Pinarello is a very good bike, but their not the best when it comes to manufacturing. But hey, I wouldn't mind having a new Dogma, it's a really nice frame.


That would be your opinion and you're entitled to it. I personally don't like the way Looks ride and I wouldn't put them in the same league as a Prince/Dogma. That would be my humble opinion. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Richieg

*Time, not Look.*



rhauft said:


> That would be your opinion and you're entitled to it. I personally don't like the way Looks ride and I wouldn't put them in the same league as a Prince/Dogma. That would be my humble opinion. Different strokes for different folks.


 Not Look, but Time. Pinarello is a very nice frame, but I don't think the Prince or Dogma is the same quality as the RXR. Their very, very good frames, but Pinarello builds their product in the far east for a reason, money..If they were paying Wong Lee in Euros, I doubt they would have their product made in China.. Having said this, that doesn't mean their not a good frame, but they don't have total control over the manufacturing process like Time does. This kind of debate can rage on forever... I was just responding to the earlier post that Pinarello is the best in design, manufacturing, etc. Which, I don't think is always true. Hey, there are a lot of nice frames out there. Time is just one among many. The Dogma is also a nice bikie and I wound't mind having one..


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## jpaine

I am sure that Pinarello technology is used in Taiwan and that many great things are made in parts of China. Actually after living in Singapore for the past 12 years, I am not sure that Italians or anybody else would be better producers than Taiwanese. The way I understand it is that the carbon is 'rolled' in Taiwan who obviously would have the expertise having built so many bikes. Painting and fine touches are done in Italy which is nice...In many ways it is a nice thing that we don't need to wait on Italian production rates for our bikes...otherwise we may grow old very fast.

Looking to buy the new Dogma soon.....very nice. Saw them in the Pinarello Gran Fondo race this year which was very tough (200km route).


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## zosocane

To answer the question of the OP, I posed the same question to a high-level person at Cicli Pinarello, S.p.A. in Treviso, Italy. His response was as follows:

1. The Dogma is designed in Treviso.

2. The carbon fiber is made by Toray, a Japanese company, a leading carbon fiber manufacturer. Visit www.toray.com. Torayca is their carbon fiber division. http://www.torayca.com/main2.html

3. Pinarello receives the Dogma "raw frame" from Taiwan. Since 2005, Pinarello has been using a Taiwanese company that exclusively builds Pinarello carbon fiber frames for Pinarello.

4. After receiving the Dogma raw frame from its Taiwanese contractor, the Dogma is painted in Treviso.


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## The Weasel

fornaca68 said:


> To answer the question of the OP, I posed the same question to a high-level person at Cicli Pinarello, S.p.A. in Treviso, Italy. His response was as follows:
> 
> 2. The carbon fiber is made by Toray, a Japanese company, a leading carbon fiber manufacturer. Visit www.toray.com. Torayca is their carbon fiber division. http://www.torayca.com/main2.html
> 
> 3. Pinarello receives the Dogma "raw frame" from Taiwan. Since 2005, Pinarello has been using a Taiwanese company that exclusively builds Pinarello carbon fiber frames for Pinarello.


I don't care much about where the frame is built though I think a frame made in it's home country carries some additional appeal and glamour. #3 is an interesting statement. Does it mean that Pinarello frames are produced exclusively by Company A, or that Company A exclusively produces Pinarello frames (only Pinarello frames)? I would guess the former. Maybe that matters to people. 
#2 is cool though. Everything I have read is that Pinarello has exclusive rights to Toray carbon in their frames. If indeed there are unique and superior properties to this carbon over others, then it puts Pinarello at an advantage and helps justifies the premium.


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## Rubber Lizard

fornaca68 said:


> 3. Pinarello receives the Dogma "raw frame" from Taiwan. Since 2005, Pinarello has been using a Taiwanese company that exclusively builds Pinarello carbon fiber frames for Pinarello.
> 
> .


Pinarello uses the same subcontractor to build and help design their bikes as about a dozen other high end companies. They just want you to believe that they still have some exclusivity left in them. 

These threads crack me up, it's a topic that's been beaten to death on the internet. And like it or not, Taiwan has the best carbon fiber technology out there for bicycles .So, to build the best bike as Pinarello wants to, you must go to Taiwan.


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## Richieg

Rubber Lizard said:


> Pinarello uses the same subcontractor to build and help design their bikes as about a dozen other high end companies. They just want you to believe that they still have some exclusivity left in them.
> 
> These threads crack me up, it's a topic that's been beaten to death on the internet. And like it or not, Taiwan has the best carbon fiber technology out there for bicycles .So, to build the best bike as Pinarello wants to, you must go to Taiwan.


 So, let me get this straight,,no carbon manufacturer on the continent of Europe can build a high quality carbon bike frame? If you want the best, you must go to Taiwan? I wonder in Time knows about this? A Time RXR is $5999 with a Time stem. A Dogma is $5500 with a post. Who do you think has the better profit magrin?


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## FondriestFan

Rubber Lizard said:


> Pinarello uses the same subcontractor to build and help design their bikes as about a dozen other high end companies. They just want you to believe that they still have some exclusivity left in them.
> 
> These threads crack me up, it's a topic that's been beaten to death on the internet. And like it or not, Taiwan has the best carbon fiber technology out there for bicycles .So, to build the best bike as Pinarello wants to, you must go to Taiwan.


This is complete rubbish, and I think most people here know it. 

Look at the European firms. Time weaves its own carbon. I believe it is the only company out there to do so. What about Storck? Colnagos still made in Italy?

While I see absolutely nothing wrong with Taiwanese carbon, and I enjoy my Prince immensely, to say that Taiwan makes the best carbon in the world for bicycles is just plain silly. Companies go to Asia because it's cheaper to do so.


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## Rubber Lizard

FondriestFan said:


> This is complete rubbish, and I think most people here know it.
> 
> Look at the European firms. Time weaves its own carbon. I believe it is the only company out there to do so. What about Storck? Colnagos still made in Italy?
> 
> While I see absolutely nothing wrong with Taiwanese carbon, and I enjoy my Prince immensely, to say that Taiwan makes the best carbon in the world for bicycles is just plain silly. Companies go to Asia because it's cheaper to do so.


Sorry bud, but it's not rubbish, and it's become not about profit margins either, Taiwan is as modern a country as any European nation with high labor costs. It's where the facilities exist to produce the high tech carbon fiber components that the market demands.
All the carbon production being done in Taiwan generates a lot of carbon technology and knowledge. That's why I am confident in saying their carbon technology, related to bicycles is the best right now. 
Although at one point about a decade ago it was about profit margins, but that's a story for a another day. Chinese production is a whole different ball game. 
You could create carbon bicycle components in Europe for just about the same cost as in Taiwan, but no facilities exist in Europe to do so on a large and therefore economically feasible scale. And the Taiwan subcontracters have invested so heavily in the very expensive tooling and engineering required to build modern composite technology that it is no longer feasible for a European company to start their own company building carbon bicycle components as the startup costs would be astronomical. 
Sure some companies like Colnago and Time are the exception. But they use Tube and Lug construction not monocoque construction. Some of Colngao's tubes and lugs are made in Taiwan, then shipped to Italy for assembly. Storck bikes are made in Taiwan, then shipped to Germany for inspection.


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## dave2pvd

I saw a video of the DeRosa factory recently. Not a single autoclave was visible.....

I don't know of any Euro manufacturers making monocoques. Sure, there are companies making lugged. With the tubes and lugs coming from......

What about Time? They are the only one that I wonder about. Although, most of their lineup is lugged. But I see a couple of full or partial mono frames; but they may be tube-tube, like the made in Taiwan Bianchi T-Cube.

I too believe that Taiwan are the best at this particular game. Just like they are for so many consumer electronics items, including a whole lot of the parts that are inside the PC you are using.


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## Richieg

Rubber Lizard said:


> Sorry bud, but it's not rubbish, and it's become not about profit margins either, Taiwan is as modern a country as any European nation with high labor costs. It's where the facilities exist to produce the high tech carbon fiber components that the market demands.
> All the carbon production being done in Taiwan generates a lot of carbon technology and knowledge. That's why I am confident in saying their carbon technology, related to bicycles is the best right now.
> Although at one point about a decade ago it was about profit margins, but that's a story for a another day. Chinese production is a whole different ball game.
> You could create carbon bicycle components in Europe for just about the same cost as in Taiwan, but no facilities exist in Europe to do so on a large and therefore economically feasible scale. And the Taiwan subcontracters have invested so heavily in the very expensive tooling and engineering required to build modern composite technology that it is no longer feasible for a European company to start their own company building carbon bicycle components as the startup costs would be astronomical.
> Sure some companies like Colnago and Time are the exception. But they use Tube and Lug construction not monocoque construction. Some of Colngao's tubes and lugs are made in Taiwan, then shipped to Italy for assembly. Storck bikes are made in Taiwan, then shipped to Germany for inspection.


 So again, your telling us no European country has the ability to build a high quality, monocoque bike frame? Funny, I wonder who builds the monocoque F1 Ferrari's... Or how about the monocoque Enzo.... Are they built in Taiwan? Uhhh, no they were and are built in Italy, by ATR.. building F1, carbon race cars is a lot more complicated than making bike frames. I know Cyfac makes several monocoque frames in France, granted the carbon comes from Japan, but they still make the product in France.. Pinarello can't do the same thing?


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## FondriestFan

Rubber Lizard said:


> Sorry bud, but it's not rubbish, and it's become not about profit margins either, Taiwan is as modern a country as any European nation with high labor costs. It's where the facilities exist to produce the high tech carbon fiber components that the market demands.
> All the carbon production being done in Taiwan generates a lot of carbon technology and knowledge. That's why I am confident in saying their carbon technology, related to bicycles is the best right now.
> Although at one point about a decade ago it was about profit margins, but that's a story for a another day. Chinese production is a whole different ball game.
> You could create carbon bicycle components in Europe for just about the same cost as in Taiwan, but no facilities exist in Europe to do so on a large and therefore economically feasible scale. And the Taiwan subcontracters have invested so heavily in the very expensive tooling and engineering required to build modern composite technology that it is no longer feasible for a European company to start their own company building carbon bicycle components as the startup costs would be astronomical.
> Sure some companies like Colnago and Time are the exception. But they use Tube and Lug construction not monocoque construction. Some of Colngao's tubes and lugs are made in Taiwan, then shipped to Italy for assembly. Storck bikes are made in Taiwan, then shipped to Germany for inspection.


So, are you drawing a distinction between monocoque and lugged or are you saying that regardless of manufacturing process, Taiwanese carbon manufacturing is the best?

If you're saying overall, I think you are absolutely wrong. Nothing in Taiwan comes close to the workmanship undertaken by Time, at least to my knowledge. If you know of any Taiwanese bike manufacturers who weave their own carbon, then by all means, share it with us.

As far as monocoque construction goes, that I really don't know. Perhaps Taiwan is the best place to obtain a monocoque frame. Certainly, Martec and others do superb work. My Kuota Kalibur is a Martec product and I have only good things to say about it. Of course, the folks at Trek would beg to differ with all that. Then again, I don't really care for Treks. For whatever it's worth, I've sourced frames and parts directly from Trigon and Gigantex, and I was very impressed with the workmanship and quality.


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## FondriestFan

dave2pvd said:


> I saw a video of the DeRosa factory recently. Not a single autoclave was visible.....
> 
> I don't know of any Euro manufacturers making monocoques. Sure, there are companies making lugged. With the tubes and lugs coming from......
> 
> What about Time? They are the only one that I wonder about. Although, most of their lineup is lugged. But I see a couple of full or partial mono frames; but they may be tube-tube, like the made in Taiwan Bianchi T-Cube.
> 
> I too believe that Taiwan are the best at this particular game. Just like they are for so many consumer electronics items, including a whole lot of the parts that are inside the PC you are using.


Time makes their own tubes and lugs. They only purchase the carbon thread and then weave it themselves.


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## dave2pvd

Richieg said:


> So again, your telling us no European country has the ability to build a high quality, monocoque bike frame? Funny, I wonder who builds the monocoque F1 Ferrari's... Or how about the monocoque Enzo.... Are they built in Taiwan? Uhhh, no they were and are built in Italy, by ATR.. building F1, carbon race cars is a lot more complicated than making bike frames. I know Cyfac makes several monocoque frames in France, granted the carbon comes from Japan, but they still make the product in France.. Pinarello can't do the same thing?


Monocoque, referring to a car chassis is a wee bit different to monocoque in the context of bicycle frames.

I'm sure lots of countries all over the world have the ability to build monocoque frames.


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## Richieg

dave2pvd said:


> Monocoque, referring to a car chassis is a wee bit different to monocoque in the context of bicycle frames.
> 
> I'm sure lots of countries all over the world have the ability to build monocoque frames.


 My point exactly. It can be done in Europe, but I'm sure it's way too expensive. This whole "it must be done in Taiwan because they are the best, etc" is just B.S.. Some, not all carbon frames from Taiwan are very good, but to say European nations can't build a monocoque bike frame, is horse $hit...


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## dave2pvd

Richieg said:


> I know Cyfac makes several monocoque frames in France, granted the carbon comes from Japan, but they still make the product in France


What made-in-France Cyfac frames are monocoque? Their top of the range Absolu is tube-to-tube.


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## Richieg

dave2pvd said:


> What made-in-France Cyfac frames are monocoque? Their top of the range Absolu is tube-to-tube.


 I stand corrected. I had a fitting done at a Cyfac dealer and was under the impression the Absolu was a monocoque frame. None the less, their product is next to none.


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## dave2pvd

Richieg said:


> I stand corrected. I had a fitting done at a Cyfac dealer and was under the impression the Absolu was a monocoque frame. None the less,_ their product is next to none._


I certainly like what they make. I'd ride one!

OK, the ultimate question for the Europe-is-better crowd:

Are there_ any_ monocoque frames made in Europe? If you say yes, please provide a link that backs up your answer.

In the meantime, I am going to assume that Taiwan makes the finest monocoque frames in the world.


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## Richieg

dave2pvd said:


> I certainly like what they make. I'd ride one!
> 
> OK, the ultimate question for the Europe-is-better crowd:
> 
> Are there_ any_ monocoque frames made in Europe? If you say yes, please provide a link that backs up your answer.
> 
> In the meantime, I am going to assume that Taiwan makes the finest monocoque frames in the world.


 I don't know of any, but that doesn't mean that it can't be done. I'm pretty sure ATR could build a monocoque bike frame, I think they built sevaral Conlago's a few years ago.


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## nicensleazy

I must say....the Dogma is growing on me. I do very much like to style and curves....bit like a lovely E Type Jaguar. However, I can't get on with the 'glitter' frame, perhaps a little more bling than an Essex girls handbag!


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## FondriestFan

nicensleazy said:


> I must say....the Dogma is growing on me. I do very much like to style and curves....bit like a lovely E Type Jaguar. However, I can't get on with the 'glitter' frame, perhaps a little more bling than an Essex girls handbag!


Saw the Dogma in person today. It is even more impressive in person than in photos. In this case, the pictures do not do this bike justice. 

I will be the first to say that, although I think that Time makes a better overall bike based on my experiences on the RXR, Worldstar, and the Prince, I think that for sheer beauty, Pinarello has no rivals at this point. I do also have to say that, if I were about to bomb a descent and had to pick any one bike, I would pick the Prince. That thing carves the road.


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## Smoothy

My understanding is that the reason for using monocoque for CF road frames is:

A) It's easy to mass produce (the Taiwanese do this very well)
B) They are aesthetically appealing (smooth lines). 

I haven't seen a convincing arguement on what monocoque offers in gains to the rider over tube to tube CF. The later can be customized to the rider's preference (fit, compliance etc). 

So, am not sure what the posters in this thread are driving at when the applaud the taiwanese product. The quality is there, but why have the best off-the-rack suit for the same or more money than a custom suit?

Do you guys like to know who built your frame or under what conditions it was built ? If I was investing Prince or Dogma levels of $$, I'd want custom and to deal direct with my mfgr. Knowing that a euro craftsman built my bike making a living wage is another thing I'd want my investment to stand for. bankrolling pro-tour team or full-page glossy ads like Looks or Pinarello do adds tremendous cost and overhead, but it's not adding value to my frame the way expert craftsmanship does.


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## T-Dog

Smoothy said:


> My understanding is that the reason for using monocoque for CF road frames is:
> 
> A) It's easy to mass produce (the Taiwanese do this very well)
> B) They are aesthetically appealing (smooth lines).
> 
> I haven't seen a convincing arguement on what monocoque offers in gains to the rider over tube to tube CF. The later can be customized to the rider's preference (fit, compliance etc).
> 
> So, am not sure what the posters in this thread are driving at when the applaud the taiwanese product. The quality is there, but why have the best off-the-rack suit for the same or more money than a custom suit?
> 
> Do you guys like to know who built your frame or under what conditions it was built ? If I was investing Prince or Dogma levels of $$, I'd want custom and to deal direct with my mfgr. Knowing that a euro craftsman built my bike making a living wage is another thing I'd want my investment to stand for. bankrolling pro-tour team or full-page glossy ads like Looks or Pinarello do adds tremendous cost and overhead, but it's not adding value to my frame the way expert craftsmanship does.


Who cares! All I know is Valverde just won the Tour of Spain on one so they must be alright.

I would rather have an off the rack Hugo Boss or Gucci suit then some custom made job.

Custom doesn’t necessarily mean better quality or result

.


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## ph0enix

T-Dog said:


> Who cares! All I know is Valverde just won the Tour of Spain on one so they must be alright.
> .


Do pros (like Valverde) get the best of the crop as far as frames are concerned? Do they, let's say, pick the best 1 out of a 1,000 frames and give it to him or perhaps his bike really is custom made just for him? I don't know.


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## FondriestFan

dave2pvd said:


> I certainly like what they make. I'd ride one!
> 
> OK, the ultimate question for the Europe-is-better crowd:
> 
> Are there_ any_ monocoque frames made in Europe? If you say yes, please provide a link that backs up your answer.
> 
> In the meantime, I am going to assume that Taiwan makes the finest monocoque frames in the world.


Well, you can certainly assume whatever you'd like. However, monocoque frames aren't just made in Taiwan. They're also made in the US and China.

As far as Europeans go, Time makes a monocoque front triangle frame NXR Instinct.


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## T-Dog

ph0enix said:


> Do pros (like Valverde) get the best of the crop as far as frames are concerned? Do they, let's say, pick the best 1 out of a 1,000 frames and give it to him or perhaps his bike really is custom made just for him? I don't know.


Can you repeat that in english?


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## ph0enix

T-Dog said:


> Can you repeat that in english?


I was basically wondering how different the bikes that the pros ride are from the bikes you and I can buy. Are the frames made specifically for the pro riders and tested better than the frames that get sent to your local Pinarello dealer?


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## Amore per la bicicletta

explains why you ride pinarello....


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## pazman

I think some people are misunderstanding where pinarello dogma frames are made .
Yes the carbon is made by Torayca in the far east , but that carbon is supplied to pinarello
in a raw form which is on roll like a roll of fabric . 
I have evidence of this of which i will post as soon as i find the links .


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## pazman

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=62439&start=60

I have other links to come plus photos of Dogma frames be made and prepared for the ovens
In Treviso


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## pazman

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=62439&start=60

I have other links to come plus photos if Dogma frames being shaped and prepared for baking
in Treviso


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## pazman

pazman said:


> I think some people are misunderstanding where pinarello dogma frames are made .
> Yes the carbon is made by Torayca in the far east , but that carbon is supplied to pinarello
> in a raw form which is on roll like a roll of fabric .
> I have evidence of this of which i will post as soon as i find the links .


http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=62439&start=60

More links to come plus photos of Dogma frames being shaped and prepared for baking in 
Treviso


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## OscarTheGreat

*Grades of carbon*



rhauft said:


> Sensible, You? Ever since you offed your Paris for a Colnago you've been trying your best to substantiate it by coming in here with all your bluster, trying to expose this breaking scandal of where Pinarellos (and all monocoque frames) are manufactured.
> 
> Whether they be constructed of Torrayca 46HM3K (Paris) 50HM1K (Prince) or 60HM1K (Dogma), they are the most advanced carbon composites available anywhere in the world.
> 
> Italian design + Japanese materials + Taiwanese monocoque engineering = state of the art design & execution.
> 
> ...and they ride really sweet too! :thumbsup:


What is the significant difference in 'grades of carbon' for a bicycle beside weight, and how does the 30HM3k quality/stiffness compare to those above and also to other bikes such as Cannondale/Giant/TREK/Colnago etc?
Eg/ Paris 46HM v FP6 30HM, is it really that much difference?


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