# Wheel builders advice needed



## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

I need a new wheel set for my bike. My bike is a 2006 Lemond Victoire . Standard wheel set for this bike was Bontrager Race lite wheels with Shimano ultegra hub. The rear wheel failed at around 8,000 miles. There were 4-5 cracks around the spoke nipples. I run anywhere from the 190 - 180 lb. rider. I do rando riding and most of my training here in Pa. is on tar and chip rough roads. I have climbing in the mts. and want some wheels that are light, fast bladed spokes but don't have to be the lightest wheels out there. I'm guessing almost any custom built wheel would be better than the race lites. These wheels would be for ultra distance racing.

Another factor is my LBS is over an hr. away from me and have thoughts of Chris King hub sets over Shimano so I don't have maintenance on them. I like the aero wheels but don't won't a real high disc as because my bike is so light if it really gets windy(cross winds) it blows me around alot.

My budget was in the $500 - $900 range so the Chris King hubs would be on the top end of that range.

Here were some suggestions from my wheel builder

Mavic Ksyrium Equipe
Mavic Aksium

Shimano wh-rs 21-cl
Shimano wh-r501

Chris king hubset
wheels for this
Alex RIM da28
DT Swiss r450
Velocity Dyad

I thought I read somewhere that the DYAD were a wider rim so not sure I want that.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Oh yeah I wouldn't know how to do service on the Shimano hubs. Any guess how often you would have to repack them(miles before service)?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

The Shimano hubs will be the easiest to service especially if it's something that you're going to do it at home. It's hard to say how many miles you will get out of them. That's really dependent on riding style and conditions. The Kings are great hubs but those wouldn't be serviceable at home. You need a special tool kit to do a full service on those hubs. 
For the rims there are a few different options you could go with. But you seem to be skeptical of wider rims?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zurichman said:


> Oh yeah I wouldn't know how to do service on the Shimano hubs. Any guess how often you would have to repack them(miles before service)?


Let's start you off with this - don't ever be afraid of servicing Shimano hubs - not at the quality level you're considering anyway. The "equivalent" to the CKs you mention is the Shimano Dura Ace. Once you get past the 2 - 5mm allen locknuts everything else is by fingers - stripping, rebuilding and re-adjustment. It's an ingenious idea. While you have the axle out you can remove the free hub with (I think) a big 14mm allen wrench (mine's downstairs; I'd have to go look at its size) and the freehub can be totally purged of old lube and muck with the ingenious Morningstar Freehub Buddy. Paul died just before Christmas so they might be in short supply. This tool is used to positively inject new lube. The crude way is to dribble it in.

So the Dura-Ace is one of the easier hubs to service completely. I chose them for my recent personal wheels. Their lower hubs (Ultegra on down) need cone wrenches to remove and re-adjust the cones and locknuts. Frequency of service depends on a few variable factors - let's say yearly or bi-yearly.

I think any wheels would be better than the Mavic and full custom are better than anything. At your weight and roads, don't skimp on spoke numbers.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Mike and Zen thanks for your replies. Zen I really don't know too much about wheels. This is the little bit I know. I know you build Open Pro wheels for bombproof wheels. I had Peter White built me a set that has the Schmidt dynahub on front. I had a cheap pair of Rolfs on my Zurich that went out early. I bought a used set of Kyrsiums that I have had for awhile.

On the wider rims I don't know what tires you would run on them and what the advantage is. I usually run Contis 4000 700x 25's on the rear. I did seem to be able to feel the difference in bladed spokes so yes I do like bladed spokes. I'm happy with the profile that my Bontrager race lites are now.

Mike would a 32 or a 36 spoke count be enough? Can you run less on the front or keep them matched up?


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

The Shimano Ultegra/105 hubs are HARD to beat for the dough. 32 and 36H drilling options only however. You could go few than 32 spokes/wheel if you wanted, but that would require more expensive hubs. Definitely don't need 36 spokes. 

If you ride lots of not-so-smooth roads, you'd appreciate a wider rim like the Pacenti SL23. They open the tire up, giving you more volume and alloy the sidewalls to provide a bit more support. You can use less air pressure for a smoother ride. Paired with a set of tubeless tires...smoooooooooth. Tubeless isn't everyone's cup of tea...but several nice rim options that at least give you the option of tubeless.

Here's what I'd recommend:

For a lower cost, 32H wheelset (with 32 spokes I really doubt you'd get any aero benefits from bladed spokes):
Shimano Ultegra hubs, Pacenti SL23 rims, Revolution and Competition spokes - 1,740g

For a fancier and lighter (and more expensive) set, with 28 bladed spokes front/rear:
White Industries T11 hubs, Pacenti SL23 rims, Aerolite and AeroComp spokes (28x28 spoke) - 1,544g


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

OP, I'd suggest going with none of the above.

Building wheels with shimano hubs is one thing, the low end shimano factory wheels your shop suggested for ultra long distrance racing is quite another.

Kings are nice light race hubs. But I don't think they make much sense for rando riding especially for someone on a budget.

To be honest I think your bike shop/wheel builder is only recommending what they happen to have on the shelf looking to move not what makes sense for you.

Shimano wh-r501 recommended to a 190 ultra distance racer? You got to be kidding me.

Find a decent wheel builder who recommends based on your needs. Shimano hubs or White industry would be a good option.

I'd suggest check out Longleaf in New Hampshire. It's actually a one man operation not company, per se. I'd only had him build race wheels but I know he has a lot of experience building for guys like you.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> I think any wheels would be better than the Mavic and full custom are better than anything. At your weight and roads, don't skimp on spoke numbers.


That's good advice. 

I had a set built up a few months ago -- White Industries T1 hubs, HED Belgium rims (wide), Sapim cxray spokes 28R/24F. I had psimet (Custom Bicycle Wheels - Hand Built Carbon and Aluminum Wheels - PSIMET : PSIMET Custom Wheels) build them for me -- I have no affiliation with them except that I'm a happy customer. They came in at 1550 grams for the set (no cassette or skewers). They're in your price range.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Few more things of interest - I keep track of the Ultegra / 105 differences, for fun. On most stuff, like cranks, 105 and Ultegra are both made in Japan. On Shimano hubs, Ultegra is made in Japan, 105 hubs are made in Malaysia. In case you keep track. 
The new Ultegra 6800 hubs have the "digital" adjustment thing, different from the traditional 6700 and previous cup and cone adjustment. I believe this is the same as Dura-Ace 9000, but don't know when the Dura-Ace hubs started using it. 

Apparently the 6800 and 9000 hubs have discrete clicks to adjust the loose bearings. They are also free from the compression effect of skewers (requiring one to adjust the bearing play slightly too loose, before the skewer is tightened). 

You are still stuck with 32 min spoke drilling on the 6800 hubs, but buying a 6800 rear and then a matching color 24H front hub from someone like BHS would possibly make a nice solid setup without all the extra spokes up front.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Z'mer said:


> the "digital" adjustment thing.................. I believe this is the same as Dura-Ace 9000, but don't know when the Dura-Ace hubs started using it.


It started with the 10-spd 7900.



> Apparently the 6800 and 9000 hubs have discrete clicks to adjust the loose bearings. They are also free from the compression effect of skewers (requiring one to adjust the bearing play slightly too loose, before the skewer is tightened).


I'm not sure about the 6800 but the 9000 series hub sure does - plus my 7900. I thought the bearing adjustment was totally removed from QR pressure as I swallowed the Cool-aid from Shimano. Someone around here called me on it so I did a test. While the QR effect is less than with traditional cone & locknut tension pressure (on my earlier DA 7850 and Ultegs) it is still there. I did lots of fine adjustments and proved (to me anyway) that QR pressure does change my 7900 bearing adjustment.


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## Bog (Feb 2, 2005)

I'm similar weight to you and would go with the Dura Ace hubs and either H+ Son Archetypes or the Pacenti SL23 rims 24F/28R. I wouldn't bother with the CX-Ray spokes but would use Sapim Laser front (radial laced) and rear NDS with Sapim Race on the DS both 2X.

Both rims are 23mm but the Pacentis would be preferable if you ever wanted to go tubeless. 

The latest Shimano Ultegra 6800 hubs do use the new click adjustment system used on the DA 9000s but they are a bit heavier due to the steel freehub body as opposed to the titanium one on the DA 9000s.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I'd second pmfs idea of the T11/Belgium wheelset. That combo is hard to beat with regards to quality and durability. That and the SL23 are the best alloy clinchers on the market IMO.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

OP, reading your post I cant help thinking that you have certain misconceptions about the merits to be expected out of wheels. I cant tell you what to do because I dont know all of your predicament but I can tell you what I do. Pick and choose what makes sense to you.

My first objective when randoneuring is not to be marked DNF. To achieve that you need to moderate the possibility of a mechanical breakdown or, at the least, have a good chance of repairing any breakdown at any mom and pop bike shop in the middle of nowhere.
Wheel wise I use wheels that are durable, reliable and repairable. My choices are as follows (and I am 3 steaks and 4 beer kegs heavier than you):

Rim: 460-490 grams, 23mm wide, mid depth (24-26mm). Reasons are added rigidity, ability to increase tension (on road repairs) without cracking the rim (which is exactly what will happen with the Dyad recommended by your LBS) and more air volume for the tire (comfort). 
Must be able to change tire in the middle of a rainstorm in under 5 minutes and without any tools.
Choices: HED C2 or C2+, Archetype

Hub: cup and cone. No bearings, no preset screws with tiny allen wrenches, no nothing. Ultegra 6700 and now 6800 if you believe in 11 speeds. They will roll for ever and the only thing they ask for is a bit of grease. It takes less than 10 minutes to repack them on the side of the road if need be.

Spokes: Double butted 14/15/14 ga. 32 3x all around. Brass nipples.

Tires: Supple 700cx28-32mm. I dont understand why being at 190 lbs you roll on 25mm tires for rando riding.

Tubes: this is a highly debatable topic but latex tubes will save you about 6 watts per wheel over butyl. BUT, and there is always a BUT, they are much more prone to catastrophic failure due to improper or rushed installation.

Some of the things from your post that, IMO, dont make much sense to me:

Bladed spokes for climbing wheel: bladed spokes are meant for harnessing the aero benefits. To do so they dont like much company (need few spokes to maintain as much laminar flow as possible) and they need to travel fast (at least faster than 25mph). Neither is applicable to randoneuring or climbing.

Dont like 23mm wide rims: Why?

Like Dyad: That used to be a popular rim for rando duty up (because it has an asymmetric option) until cracks around the spoke drillings started developing when spokes were tensioned to more than 100-110 kgf. The solution to this is the DT Swiss 440 asymmetric.

25mm tires: why not 28mm if they fit? How long are you riding for? if you do a 300, 400+ the extra comfort from 28mm at lower pressure will be addictive. I am not going to enter the "wider tires are faster tires" debate other than saying there is merit to that.

I hope the above helps you; none meant as a criticism.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

I like the White Ind. T11 and Hed Belgium combo best for your needs. 24h front and 28h rear with CX-Ray spokes and these wheels will be relatively light and last a very long time.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

I'd just use Lasers, or even Race (DT Revolutions and Comps would be the respective equivalents). At retail, we're taking about an additional $150+ worth of spokes to us CX Rays in a wheel he's trying to keep to $500 to $900, and CX Rays do nothing in this build but make the builder's life easier. $450 for a set of T-11s, $200 for a pair of SL23s or Belgiums, $100 for Lasers/Race + nipples, the rest for build and skewers/strips. 28/32 2x/3x. Wonderful set of wheels (if built well - I'd rather have lesser parts built well than vice versa, by a LONG shot) and nothing frivolous.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I recall my set coming in at around $800-$850, including shipping. Definitely less than $900. I went with the cxray spokes. They're probably a not great bang for the buck choice, but they're nice. I have King headsets on all my bikes, same thing there.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

pmf said:


> I recall my set coming in at around $800-$850, including shipping. Definitely less than $900. I went with the cxray spokes. They're probably a not great bang for the buck choice, but they're nice. I have King headsets on all my bikes, same thing there.


They're lovely, and expensive, and they make the builder's life a whole lot easier - which can result in a better wheel for the owner so there's payoff there. But objectively they're worth about a watt of power. We tested it. 

What you paid isn't at all off base for wheels coming from a larger wheel builder. I'd expect someone at PSIMET's volume to be able to buy the relevant components for about as good as it gets. But CX Rays are expensive as get out, even when you're buying enough of them that a $2500 CX Ray bill isn't at all a big deal. CX Rays cost us nearly 3x what Lasers do.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dcgriz said:


> OP, reading your post I cant help thinking that you have certain misconceptions about the merits to be expected out of wheels. I cant tell you what to do because I dont know all of your predicament but I can tell you what I do. Pick and choose what makes sense to you.
> 
> My first objective when randoneuring is not to be marked DNF. To achieve that you need to moderate the possibility of a mechanical breakdown or, at the least, have a good chance of repairing any breakdown at any mom and pop bike shop in the middle of nowhere.
> Wheel wise I use wheels that are durable, reliable and repairable. My choices are as follows (and I am 3 steaks and 4 beer kegs heavier than you):
> ...


This is a whole load of good sensible advice for the OP. Jay's advice is good too.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Zurichman,

I have a Lemond Victoire also. I weigh 163 lbs. I did a BHS build with 24/28 using a Kinlin 270 rim. Unless your bike is different from mine, they are extremely stingy on tire clearance @ the chainstays. Wide Rims and Wide tires may not fit too well. I can get away with 25 c tires but even then it is a little tight so I just stick with 23. Looking at your weight, and knowing these frames have a bit of "give" in them at the bb, you might want to make sure you have a few more spokes. Use what ever hubs you want, mine are definately not high end. I just wanted something inexpensive since ths is a back rain bike. What ever you build, will prolly be a lot lighter than the original wheels. You can have more spokes, and if done correctly will be stiffer than your origianals.

Mandatory pics...


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I read several posts, Mike, when some folks recommend 24 spokes and CXrays on top and get not help thinking that they have no clue what Randoneuring is all about. 
Maybe I'm too critical.....I dont know, this is the internet after all ......just trying to help the OP, hopefully without ruffling anybody's feathers.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm sure most Randonnerurs average about 14mph on their rides. After all, they're not on stripped racing bikes and most of them, while incredible mileage hounds (I'm aware of guys like John Hughes and Ken Bonner) are older guys, well-past their fast days. CX-Rays or Revs/Lasers for them? I think not.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

I don't see a problem with using Revolutions. When built right they're just as reliable as anything else. Why not shave some weight if it doesn't hurt anything? 

I think some people take the Rando bike thing too far in regards to reliability and end up with a lot of overbuilt stuff. If you can keep the weight down, and still have great reliability, I don't see a problem with that. In fact, if I did that kind of riding I'd certainly want to keep the weight down. Rando rides are just long rides, there's nothing that demanding about them. It's not like bikepacking the Tour Divide or anything. I mean, are you really worried about needing to repack the grease in hubs while on a ride? Really?? 

Anyhow. Wheels opinions are like...well, you know. Everybody's got one 

To the OP - pick a builder you trust, set your budget, and go from there. Lots of ways to skin this cat.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> I'm sure most Randonnerurs average about 14mph on their rides. After all, they're not on stripped racing bikes and most of them, while incredible mileage hounds (I'm aware of guys like John Hughes and Ken Bonner) are older guys, well-past their fast days. CX-Rays or Revs/Lasers for them? I think not.



Ok so maybe I didn't really represent myself right. I do rando riding and have a set of Open Pro wheels for that. I'm starting into ultra distance racing this year like the Tejas 500. I'm buying these wheels for probably my main set of wheels for race day and will train on whatever I have on the bike now. Since I already have the Open Pros looking for some faster wheels so they probably don't need to be set up for bullet proof as much and they don't have to be the fastest wheels something in between. I need to have a spare set of wheels with me in my pits so if I have a flat I can just change the wheels out to save time instead of replacing the tube or tire. They also will probably be more for flat racing instead of climbing. So yes my bike will also be pretty much stripped, probably just a small under the seat bag with a CO2 cartridge, levers, and a tube. My set up will have to be 10 speed Shimano compatable.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dgaddis1 said:


> I think some people take the Rando bike thing too far in regards to reliability and end up with a lot of overbuilt stuff. If you can keep the weight down, and still have great reliability, I don't see a problem with that. In fact, if I did that kind of riding I'd certainly want to keep the weight down. Rando rides are just long rides, there's nothing that demanding about them.


It'd be interesting to bring John Hughes into this conversation. There aren't many people of any age who have anything close to his long distance cycling palmares -


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Enoch562 said:


> Zurichman,
> 
> I have a Lemond Victoire also. I weigh 163 lbs. I did a BHS build with 24/28 using a Kinlin 270 rim. Unless your bike is different from mine, they are extremely stingy on tire clearance @ the chainstays. Wide Rims and Wide tires may not fit too well. I can get away with 25 c tires but even then it is a little tight so I just stick with 23. Looking at your weight, and knowing these frames have a bit of "give" in them at the bb, you might want to make sure you have a few more spokes. Use what ever hubs you want, mine are definately not high end. I just wanted something inexpensive since ths is a back rain bike. What ever you build, will prolly be a lot lighter than the original wheels. You can have more spokes, and if done correctly will be stiffer than your origianals.
> 
> Mandatory pics...


Enoch is that a 2003 model. I have one of those frames to get built up some time. If it's the model I have it's all ti. My 2006 is carbon fiber/ti glue together. I don't know how to post a pic of it. But the top tube is carbon and then half way down the down tubes it's glued together with ti.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

You might be good on clearence if you have the newer model with carbon. Mine is all Ti. Not even sure what year mine is. I just saw Victorie and new about the clearance issues on the all Ti models. 

Sorry for the miss direct. Carry on...


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Enoch562 said:


> You might be good on clearence if you have the newer model with carbon. Mine is all Ti. Not even sure what year mine is. I just saw Victorie and new about the clearance issues on the all Ti models.
> 
> Sorry for the miss direct. Carry on...



You are correct in that it doesn't have much clearance there and so that is why I have never run more than 700 x 25 in the rear.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I'd second pmfs idea of the T11/Belgium wheelset. That combo is hard to beat with regards to quality and durability. That and the SL23 are the best alloy clinchers on the market IMO.


+1 for the SL23, one of the best for sure!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

dgaddis1 said:


> I think some people take the Rando bike thing too far in regards to reliability and end up with a lot of overbuilt stuff. If you can keep the weight down, and still have great reliability, I don't see a problem with that. In fact, if I did that kind of riding I'd certainly want to keep the weight down. Rando rides are just long rides, there's nothing that demanding about them. It's not like bikepacking the Tour Divide or anything. I mean, are you really worried about needing to repack the grease in hubs while on a ride? Really??
> .


Well, let me first say that I recognize that the definition of the Rando bike is quite diverse. When one looks at the bikes at the PBP, for instance, he/she sees practically sees everything on 2 or more wheels. People use whatever they have available or whatever they need to use to make a statement. A lot of them finish and a lot of them don't.
However, when one sees the bikes that folks ride when they stick with the sport year after year after year then a pattern on the preferred bike develops. Same with the components on the bike.
You mentioned that there is nothing demanding about a rando ride; just a long ride you said. Well, I sense you have never done one, have you? Riding a day long event like a 200 brevet may be viewed as a century and basically is just that although a tad longer. Riding a 400 with a time limit of 27 hrs or a 600 within 40 hrs or a 1000 in 75 hrs is a different animal. It takes all day long and all night long riding, some of it in inclement weather, non stop. The last thing you need are mechanical breakdowns to divert your mental focus. Specially breakdowns in the middle of the night which tend to put a quick lid on your fun.
Should you need to repack your bearings, you wonder. Most probably not. Is it not possible? Most probably not. Riding for 6 hrs straight in the rain tests every component on your bike. If the seals happen to be compromised you will get water in, if you have 200 miles left to go you may be looking at a developing problem that could be contained if you have the choice of fixing it before it becomes non fixable. I understand there are a lot of "if's" but understand that there are a lot of miles as well and the clock does not stop. The point is to be prepared, choose your components and have a plan.
At the end, we all do what we perceive as the smart thing to do. Some ride with only a credit card and their cell phone, others take a few more things. We all give advise based on our experiences and what seems to work best for each of us. The smart reader picks and chooses what makes the most sense to them.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

dcgriz said:


> Well, let me first say that I recognize that the definition of the Rando bike is quite diverse. When one looks at the bikes at the PBP, for instance, he/she sees practically sees everything on 2 or more wheels. People use whatever they have available or whatever they need to use to make a statement. A lot of them finish and a lot of them don't.
> However, when one sees the bikes that folks ride when they stick with the sport year after year after year then a pattern on the preferred bike develops. Same with the components on the bike.
> You mentioned that there is nothing demanding about a rando ride; just a long ride you said. Well, I sense you have never done one, have you? Riding a day long event like a 200 brevet may be viewed as a century and basically is just that although a tad longer. Riding a 400 with a time limit of 27 hrs or a 600 within 40 hrs or a 1000 in 75 hrs is a different animal. It takes all day long and all night long riding, some of it in inclement weather, non stop. The last thing you need are mechanical breakdowns to divert your mental focus. Specially breakdowns in the middle of the night which tend to put a quick lid on your fun.
> Should you need to repack your bearings, you wonder. Most probably not. Is it not possible? Most probably not. Riding for 6 hrs straight in the rain tests every component on your bike. If the seals happen to be compromised you will get water in, if you have 200 miles left to go you may be looking at a developing problem that could be contained if you have the choice of fixing it before it becomes non fixable. I understand there are a lot of "if's" but understand that there are a lot of miles as well and the clock does not stop. The point is to be prepared, choose your components and have a plan.
> At the end, we all do what we perceive as the smart thing to do. Some ride with only a credit card and their cell phone, others take a few more things. We all give advise based on our experiences and what seems to work best for each of us. The smart reader picks and chooses what makes the most sense to them.



To get back on track I guess or wish I hadn't brought the rando equation in here as these wheel will be mainly used for supported rides where you will not have much weight on your bike and you are willing to sacrifice some for speed as you probably will have another set of fresh wheels in the support vehicle. 

Think

Fireweed 400
Hodoo 500
Tejas 500

And possibly RAAM again 

Thanks
Z


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

changingleaf said:


> I like the White Ind. T11 and Hed Belgium combo best for your needs. 24h front and 28h rear with CX-Ray spokes and these wheels will be relatively light and last a very long time.


This is the best option IMHO.
White Industries hubs are bomb proof and will save you some money over CK.
They are easily serviced, the instructions are on their web site.
Pacenti SL23 rims are also a great choice.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dgaddis1 said:


> I don't see a problem with using Revolutions. When built right they're just as reliable as anything else. Why not shave some weight if it doesn't hurt anything?
> 
> I think some people take the Rando bike thing too far in regards to reliability and end up with a lot of overbuilt stuff. If you can keep the weight down, and still have great reliability, I don't see a problem with that. In fact, if I did that kind of riding I'd certainly want to keep the weight down. Rando rides are just long rides, there's nothing that demanding about them. It's not like bikepacking the Tour Divide or anything. I mean, are you really worried about needing to repack the grease in hubs while on a ride? Really??
> 
> ...


While it's true a lot of Rando guys bring Confederate currency just incase the South should rise again in the middle of a ride......it's also true that trimming grams serves them no purpose what so ever. So if you're going to error I think it's farily obvious which side of the overbuilt/light line to error on.
That's practically speaking anyway. If someone has a personal preferece for low weight and understands the give/take of it......by all means knock yourself out.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

November Dave said:


> They're lovely, and expensive, and they make the builder's life a whole lot easier - which can result in a better wheel for the owner so there's payoff there. But objectively they're worth about a watt of power. We tested it.
> 
> What you paid isn't at all off base for wheels coming from a larger wheel builder. I'd expect someone at PSIMET's volume to be able to buy the relevant components for about as good as it gets. But CX Rays are expensive as get out, even when you're buying enough of them that a $2500 CX Ray bill isn't at all a big deal. CX Rays cost us nearly 3x what Lasers do.


Yeah, but what do you get for $800 from Mavic or Shimano? I'm going to ride these wheels for several years, so what if the spokes cost a bit more to get (arguably) the best? In an age when I see people commuting on $2500 carbon wheels ...


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> It started with the 10-spd 7900.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about the 6800 but the 9000 series hub sure does - plus my 7900. I thought the bearing adjustment was totally removed from QR pressure as I swallowed the Cool-aid from Shimano. Someone around here called me on it so I did a test. While the QR effect is less than with traditional cone & locknut tension pressure (on my earlier DA 7850 and Ultegs) it is still there. I did lots of fine adjustments and proved (to me anyway) that QR pressure does change my 7900 bearing adjustment.


Mike T

I read another thread where you posted you had a set of wheels like this

I have a 1584 Gram wheel set(also with 24/28 spokesn but not Rays ) that I feel more comfortable with.

What is that wheel set? Is the set with the 7900 Shimano hubs?

I have been out there riding enough that I want to say that riders will buy the lightest stuff out there thinking it will make them faster versus losing some motor weight that really would help them more. I have lost 13-15 lbs since the beginning of the year and hope to lose at least 10 more lbs. till racing season. So no I don't need the lightest wheel somewhere in between and I do have concerns since my bike doesn't have much clearance especially on the rear.

Thanks
Z


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zurichman said:


> To get back on track I guess or wish I hadn't brought the rando equation in here as these wheel will be mainly used for supported rides where you will not have much weight on your bike and you are willing to sacrifice some for speed as you probably will have another set of fresh wheels in the support vehicle.
> 
> Think
> Fireweed 400
> ...


What seems a little strange to me Z is that if you're capable of doing all these mega-rides, that you wouldn't be a total expert in knowing *exactly* what wheels you need. I know exactly what wheels I need (and what I wouldn't touch with a stick) and if I did 5 figure mileage in a year I'd be over the moon.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Mike

I came on here asking for some help. Yes I have done RAAM once as a 4 man team a couple of 1200k rando rides, FC508 once with another rider. I'm not in that kind of shape now and have decided to try getting back into it again and doing the Tejas500 too this year. I still know nothing about getting wheels build up as I have only ridden what came stock on my bikes plus one Open Pro set that Peter White built for me.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Zurichman said:


> Mike
> 
> I came on here asking for some help. Yes I have done RAAM once as a 4 man team a couple of 1200k rando rides, FC508 once with another rider. I'm not in that kind of shape now and have decided to try getting back into it again and doing the Tejas500 too this year. I still know nothing about getting wheels build up as I have only ridden what came stock on my bikes plus one Open Pro set that *Peter White built for me*.


You could always ask Peter what he thinks 

For those not sure why I put a  after it here's a taste of his opinion cut/pasted from his site.

"So, when you call and tell me you weigh as much as the typical NFL running back and you're just tickled pink with your Campy Record 10 speed equipped bike but you want a set of wheels that are light weight and "bomb proof" (I love that one!) don't be surprised when I suggest you go on a diet and call me back in a few years. I'm not writing this because I don't want your business, it's because I hate feeding on misconceptions spread by the marketing departments of various cycling companies and the moronic magazine scribes."

The full rant: Custom Wheel Building


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> You could always ask Peter what he thinks
> 
> For those not sure why I put a  after it here's a taste of his opinion cut/pasted from his site.
> 
> ...


Peter always has been special and one who I base my whole Wheels opinions and phylosophies off ;o) He's my wheel hero.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Peter always has been special and one who I base my whole Wheels opinions and phylosophies off ;o) He's my wheel hero.


Can't say I'm suprised about that. 

He's a bit over the top but far less so than the extreme weight weenie side of the aisle.

I've never met him but he's from where I grew up and still stay in close contact with so I can relate with what's formed his attitude so I find him particularly entertaining. Pretty much everyone who's a long-timer in that part of New Hampshire see things though a similar lense.


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## Bog (Feb 2, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> You could always ask Peter what he thinks
> 
> For those not sure why I put a  after it here's a taste of his opinion cut/pasted from his site.
> 
> ...


I think he needs to update his rant to include "armchair, forum pundits" to move with the times!


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

pmf said:


> Yeah, but what do you get for $800 from Mavic or Shimano? I'm going to ride these wheels for several years, so what if the spokes cost a bit more to get (arguably) the best? In an age when I see people commuting on $2500 carbon wheels ...


Um, in a paraphrase of the immortal Inigo Montoya, perhaps I'm not who you think I am? Read this, which I wrote this morning, and have a look at the product page. I think you and I are violently agreeing on this point. 

The topic of what you get from the two you mentioned, I will just leave those alone. Hopefully my silence speaks volumes. 

Going back to the general topic of CX Rays or Lasers versus heavier spokes for durable builds, I fail to see the axis along which Lasers/CX Rays aren't better. They're stronger and more resistant to cycle fatigue. I have a simple experiment I like to show people, where you stand a CX Ray, a Laser, a Race, and a straight gauge spoke one end. One by one, you push on the top until either the middle bends, or your hand hurts so much you want to quit pushing. CX Rays bend super easily, Lasers slightly less so, Races put up a pretty good fight, and people generally don't bend the straight spoke. Spokes break at the ends, and the pain you feel in that experiment is in direct proportion to the stress that the spokes ends encounter. 

Wheels with low-ish spoke counts can thrive in longer races (a set of our old 38s that I built with Lasers was used to set the trans-Texas record last summer, and the wheels had many many thousands of miles on them before that adventure started), and there are times when higher spoke counts are 100% necessary (the wheels I built for a friend to do the Trans-Sylvania Epic mtb race were 32/32, built with Lasers). 

The taste for super low spoke count wheels I don't understand, but what constitutes a low spoke count depends on the other components, primarily the rim. A 28 spoke front with a carbon rim is just as odd to me as a 20 spoke rear on an aluminum rim.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zurichman said:


> Mike
> I came on here asking for some help. Yes I have done RAAM once as a 4 man team a couple of 1200k rando rides, FC508 once with another rider. I'm not in that kind of shape now and have decided to try getting back into it again and doing the Tejas500 too this year. I still know nothing about getting wheels build up as I have only ridden what came stock on my bikes plus one Open Pro set that Peter White built for me.


Yeah ok. I see.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Can't say I'm suprised about that.
> 
> He's a bit over the top but far less so than the extreme weight weenie side of the aisle.
> 
> I've never met him but he's from where I grew up and still stay in close contact with so I can relate with what's formed his attitude so I find him particularly entertaining. Pretty much everyone who's a long-timer in that part of New Hampshire see things though a similar lense.


Naww I'm kind of kidding somewhat but I do think his advice is better for Joe Average than the low-spoke craze. Even *I* have progressed from 36/36 wheels (that would give Peter mega-wood)that I raced on until 1986, to racing on 32/32 in the '80s & '90 to (gasp!) general riding on 24/28 spokes today.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Naww I'm kind of kidding somewhat but I do think his advice is better for Joe Average than the low-spoke craze. Even *I* have progressed from 36/36 wheels (that would give Peter mega-wood)that I raced on until 1986, to racing on 32/32 in the '80s & '90 to (gasp!) general riding on 24/28 spokes today.


yeah I knew you were kidding..........somewhat.

He makes some good points he just take them way to far. He's to stong wheels what someone saying 16 spokes in the rear is to weight weenie wheels. Extreme. Either way it's good entertainment.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Mike T and others I have been doing as much reading as I can so I can make an informed choice on what Wheels to get built. I even contacted Longleaf Cycles in NH as someone here recommended them.

His reply after I told him I was pretty sastified with the profile of my Bontrager Race Lites I have now.

Pretty much set on the Woods T11 hubs

He said he would build 24/28 but suggested 28/32 as the extra spokes aren't significant in terms of weight and aerodynamically the difference is also tiny.

So I'm sold on the 28/32 more is better and I would rather have strong versus weaker and then end up walking home or not being able to finish a planed ride/race because you can't open your brakes up to limp home should that happen when you loose a spoke.

He recommended the Velocity A23 with the Sapin CX-ray spokes if I wanted flat spokes. 

He also said I thought a OC rear I guess that means off center. Why the off center wheel.


Mike T I read as much on your website as I could understand. You mentioned wheelbuilders.com as a source to buy single spokes. How much better are their high strength aluminum nipples @ $4.50 a piece than say Sapim Aluminum Polyax nipples?


I also have been reading as much as I can on reviews on the A23's and see this somewhat of a poor finish on the rim no big deal. Rough finish around the spoke holes wheel builder will have to dig out some of the metal and some complaints about rim tape not covering these flaws and some people have trouble with that. big deal.


Not sure of the cost of the Velocity A23 thinking $80 and then the pacenti sl23 being around $100 and thinking this might be a better option.


Is the pacenti S23 about the same profile height wise as the A23?

Mike T would you recommend using the nipple washers on either of these rims as I don't know if either rim has nipple eyelets?


Thanks
Z


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zurichman said:


> He said he would build 24/28 but suggested 28/32 as the extra spokes aren't significant in terms of weight and aerodynamically the difference is also tiny.


I'd rather have someone saying that to you than "I think you could get away with................"



> He also said I thought a OC rear I guess that means off center. Why the off center wheel.


It makes the spoke more even in their angle down to the hub thus equalizing their tensions more.



> wheelbuilders.com as a source to buy single spokes. How much better are their high strength aluminum nipples @ $4.50 a piece than say Sapim Aluminum Polyax nipples?


That's "wheelbuilder (singular) .com" That $4.50 is per 10 nipples. I have no idea about any differences between them and Sapim.



> Mike T would you recommend using the nipple washers on either of these rims as I don't know if either rim has nipple eyelets?


I don't know of a downside to using them on any rim that doesn't have eyelets.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> I'd rather have someone saying that to you than "I think you could get away with................"
> 
> 
> It makes the spoke more even in their angle down to the hub thus equalizing their tensions more.
> ...


Mike I really appreciate the help. Here is my last few questions. I know there are plenty of riders out there that will spend big bucks on shaving an ounce or so on the wheels. I'm not one of them. I would rather work a little bit harder to shave the weight off the motor. To that end I'm pretty happy with the profile that is on my Bontrager Race Lites now just not the quality of them. So I really don't want to go with a higher profile as when the cross winds hit me with my bike being somewhat light it blows me around some now.

Since I'm not going with the Chris KIng hubs I have some money left over for better wheels. I don't know what the profile is on the Pancenti S23 or The Hed C2'S that other posters suggested compared to the Velocity A23 the wheel builder suggested.. From your wheel building experience how much better is the quality and durability of the Pancenti or the Hed C2 compared to the Velocity A23?


Thanks
Larry


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zurichman said:


> Since I'm not going with the Chris KIng hubs I have some money left over for better wheels. I don't know what the profile is on the Pancenti S23 or The Hed C2'S that other posters suggested compared to the Velocity A23 the wheel builder suggested.. From your wheel building experience how much better is the quality and durability of the Pancenti or the Hed C2 compared to the Velocity A23?


I can't answer that Larry but I'll bet someone can.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

Zurichman said:


> He recommended the Velocity A23 with the Sapin CX-ray spokes if I wanted flat spokes.


Larry, good to see you here on RBR. You may remember when you, Howard, and I climbed Mt Evans at BJRU 2008. Or rather, you and Howard climbed Mt Evans and politely waited for me to catch up.

The only pre-built wheelset I own is the Velocity A23 PRO Build set on my Litespeed. They're A23 hoops, Velocity's house-brand hubs, and Sapim CX-Rays 20F/24R, built in-house at Velocity. I've had them on there for three years now (maybe longer, I forget). However long I've had them, they've been flawless. I like them climbing, they're manageable in crosswinds, and they routinely take a beating on my local cobblestone climbs without complaint. 

Where they aren't quite perfect is on fast descents. They're not welded, but pinned together with an internal sleeve that throws the wheel out of balance. Above 42 or 43 MPH, they start to shake the bike. I hit those speeds only once or twice a year and for only a quarter to half-mile or so, so I don't worry about it. I love the wheels except for that one situation.

That did not stop me from using A23 and A23 O/C hoops when I had a new wheelset built last autumn for one of my commuters. I went 32-hole O/C with DT Comps in the back for when I carry loads of groceries on that bike.

Pacenti and HED are reputed to be stronger, but I've found the A23s to be plenty strong enough. But if fast decents are in the cards, I'd go for one of the others because (and you'll need to verify this) they're welded.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

brucew said:


> Larry, good to see you here on RBR. You may remember when you, Howard, and I climbed Mt Evans at BJRU 2008. Or rather, you and Howard climbed Mt Evans and politely waited for me to catch up.
> 
> The only pre-built wheelset I own is the Velocity A23 PRO Build set on my Litespeed. They're A23 hoops, Velocity's house-brand hubs, and Sapim CX-Rays 20F/24R, built in-house at Velocity. I've had them on there for three years now (maybe longer, I forget). However long I've had them, they've been flawless. I like them climbing, they're manageable in crosswinds, and they routinely take a beating on my local cobblestone climbs without complaint.
> 
> ...



Hey Brucew Thanks for the info and now I have something to go back to my wheelbuilder with. Although I'm not a downhill guy like Homey at BJ I do hit 45 -50 mph. on my mt training climb that I do so that probably won't work.


Thanks again
Mike T and Brucew


BTW The next time I go out to Hypoxia land I want to climb Pikes Peak.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Zurichman said:


> Since I'm not going with the Chris KIng hubs I have some money left over for better wheels. I don't know what the profile is on the Pancenti S23 or The Hed C2'S that other posters suggested compared to the Velocity A23 the wheel builder suggested.. From your wheel building experience how much better is the quality and durability of the Pancenti or the Hed C2 compared to the Velocity A23?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Larry


C2's are 'better' than A23's in the way a Seiko might be 'better' than a slightly less expensive watch. If you put them under the microscope, so to speak, you'd see the Seiko is made to more exacting standards. But they will both say 10:34 when it's 10:34 so that 'better' doesn't really do much for you.
I'm not sure how the off center bit impacts this. That may kick the A23 up a notch. I'm not an engineer but have to think that all else equal O/C makes a stronger wheel.

No direct experience with Panceti. I tend to shy away from new products that are both bigger and lighter than similar until I start hearing about people with 10K + miles on them and not having problems. By all reports so far they are great though with the exception of some people have trouble getting tires on them.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> C2's are 'better' than A23's in the way a Seiko might be 'better' than a slightly less expensive watch. If you put them under the microscope, so to speak, you'd see the Seiko is made to more exacting standards. But they will both say 10:34 when it's 10:34 so that 'better' doesn't really do much for you.
> I'm not sure how the off center bit impacts this. That may kick the A23 up a notch. I'm not an engineer but have to think that all else equal O/C makes a stronger wheel.
> .


The C2 have been consistently produced to higher radial and lateral trueness standards. When the rim is round and true it tends to build a better wheel at the least amount of time because the rim doesn't need to be beat to submission to take out the hops, the hollows and the wobbling. Not having to do that helps the builder build a more durable wheel because it makes it easier to keep low or very low variations in spoke tensions. Similar to CxRays making it easier for the builder avoid spoke windup when compared to a xtra light round butted spokes.

I think the OC rim helps contain the effects of large spoke tension variations due to rim imperfections because although it does not moderate them, it moves them to a higher tension range so their effects are not as eminent. What I mean by that, is while a rim with higher radial,and lateral trueness variations may end up with NDS spoke tensions varying between 45 and 60 kgf, the same quality rim but OC will shift the 15 kgf gradient to a drastically higher tension magnitude. The gradient will still be there but its effect will not be as eminent.

My personal preference to rim choices follows the same mentality as with tire choices. I always buy the best I can find. If I need to maintain a lower wheel cost, I don't buy boutique hubs. For my predicament and liking, the effects of a less expensive hubs are not as pronounced as the effects of a low quality rim (within reason, of course, for either choice). In addition to considering it odd lacing a $500 hub set to a $100 rim set.



Jay Strongbow said:


> No direct experience with Panceti. I tend to shy away from new products that are both bigger and lighter than similar until I start hearing about people with 10K + miles on them and not having problems. By all reports so far they are great though with the exception of some people have trouble getting tires on them.


Ditto.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dcgriz said:


> The C2 have been consistently produced to higher radial and lateral trueness standards. (snipped)


Thanks for setting my post straight. All I know, as a high mileage rider but not wheel builder, is that one has done the job just as well as the other. But as your info gets across....just because something doesn't surface into an issue doesn't mean it's not there or the potential is eliminated.

Anyway OP, if in doubt get the C2s.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Thanks for setting my post straight. All I know, as a high mileage rider but not wheel builder, is that one has done the job just as well as the other. But as your info gets across....just because something doesn't surface into an issue doesn't mean it's not there or the potential is eliminated.
> 
> Anyway OP, if in doubt get the C2s.


All is just for the shake of discussion Jay.
Just as you said....not all aspects of a wheel build are evident to the end user. The truing stand tends to exaggerate tolerances.
A Deep V I have and use has the worst hop I have ever seen on a pinned rim. You look at it while on the truing stand and it looks like a hopping bunny; put a tire on and take it on a spin and you don't notice it. It's still there but the tire suspension conceals it from the rider
All wheels need to settle at a level of equilibrium; some do it upfront during the building process, some arrive at it eventually after some post-ride tweaking.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Zurichman said:


> Since I'm not going with the Chris KIng hubs I have some money left over for better wheels. I don't know what the profile is on the Pancenti S23 or The Hed C2'S that other posters suggested compared to the Velocity A23 the wheel builder suggested.. From your wheel building experience how much better is the quality and durability of the Pancenti or the Hed C2 compared to the Velocity A23?
> 
> The Pacenti SL23 and Hed C2 are the nicest alloy clinchers on the market IMO. The A23 is definitely a step down with regards to finish and joint quality. Still a solid and versatile rim though but the SL23 or C2 are definitely worth the extra $.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dcgriz said:


> All is just for the shake of discussion Jay.
> .


oh yeah, I got that. If my post came across as push-back that wasn't the intent.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> oh yeah, I got that. If my post came across as push-back that wasn't the intent.


It did not. After a while on these forums we all tend to understand were everybody stands.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Two other rims I would consider - H plus Son Archetype, and DT RR440, which is available as an asymmetric ("OC" if you like) rear. 

Reports from most builders give the Archetype high marks for quality. The price is literally less than 1/2 that of the C2, for a rim that is pretty close to it in size, weight, and quality. For a budget build, it's a no brainer. 

The RR440 is usually not mentioned in "wide" rim discussions, where the banner spec is the outside width. The dimension that counts, though, is the internal width, and the spec for that on RR440 is 16.5 mm. 
The typical traditional narrow rims are anywhere from 13.5mm to 15mm. Apparently the informal measure for "wide" rims is an internal width of 17mm to 18mm, so the RR440 is just shy of that. It looks like a decent quality 450g rim for consideration, especially with the asymmetric option. 
Most have seen this already, but if not, it's a good read
2013 Rim Roundup - Fair Wheel Bikes

BTW, I also question why anyone would spend $500 on hubs, and over $150 on spokes, then use $45. rims. For $500 to $600 wheels, I'd budget rims/spokes/build cost 60% and hubs 40%. It's pretty rare that well made hubs ever fail, even ones that sell for $150 / pair or less.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

I've built quite a few H Plus rims. I think it is one of the best out there. Very sturdy, Very round, excellant finish. It does weigh a little more than the Pacenti, but it is also easier to change tires. One thing I noticed is you don't see any deformation from the spokes. I also noticed how flat they brake track stays in between the spoke when using the dial indicator.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

I know I sound like a broken record, but another vote for the SL23 over the A23. I've not built a lot of Velocity rims, but the few I have didn't impress me at all. Lots of shavings in the rim I had to shake out, and a polished set was full of both metal shavings and polishing compound, which was also caked in the spoke hole drillings. I spent over 20mins with each rim just getting them cleaned up and ready to build. That's a sign of poor quality control IMO. The joints weren't as nice as the SL23 rims I've built either.


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## seely (Feb 13, 2007)

dgaddis1 said:


> I know I sound like a broken record, but another vote for the SL23 over the A23. I've not built a lot of Velocity rims, but the few I have didn't impress me at all. Lots of shavings in the rim I had to shake out, and a polished set was full of both metal shavings and polishing compound, which was also caked in the spoke hole drillings. I spent over 20mins with each rim just getting them cleaned up and ready to build. That's a sign of poor quality control IMO. The joints weren't as nice as the SL23 rims I've built either.


The polishing compound is an unfortunate byproduct of the polishing process. Our polisher, a local company that does mostly Harley parts, is supposed to bathe the rims to get the excess out, but for whatever reason it doesn't get it all. We've actually got a custom-built shaker to get the metal shavings out of our rims, but, we do occasionally get a piece jammed in the rim tightly enough that it doesn't come out.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

brucew said:


> Where they aren't quite perfect is on fast descents. They're not welded, but pinned together with an internal sleeve that throws the wheel out of balance. Above 42 or 43 MPH, they start to shake the bike. I hit those speeds only once or twice a year and for only a quarter to half-mile or so, so I don't worry about it. I love the wheels except for that one situation.


This caught my attention, I noticed the wheel balance issue when my bike was in the stand, but I have not approached a speed where it would make the bike shake. I wonder if anyone has experimented with wheel balancing, adding some weight to the opposite side of the rim. I would be interested in a product like this: Storm SuspenStrips 70 Strips depending on the amount of weight needed to balance, it could potentially be hidden under the rim strip. Hyjack over.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

jfaas said:


> This caught my attention, I noticed the wheel balance issue when my bike was in the stand, but I have not approached a speed where it would make the bike shake. I wonder if anyone has experimented with wheel balancing, adding some weight to the opposite side of the rim. I would be interested in a product like this: Storm SuspenStrips 70 Strips depending on the amount of weight needed to balance, it could potentially be hidden under the rim strip. Hyjack over.


If you were going to do it, you'd need to balance the entire system, not just the wheel. Wheel, rim tape, tube, tire, computer magnet, etc.


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

It's has been awhile since I posted this thread. I was out training as much as I could for my 1st ride/race of the season(Calvin's Challenge 12 hrs.) I was in here looking at some of the other threads so final questions.

1. I'm pretty set on the White hubs but know nothing about rims and spokes.
2. I saw Hed C2 PACENTI SL23(discussion on how hard the tubes are to change) so probably out, H plus Archetype DT RR440. I know the newest trend is to get the wider rims for a more comfort ride. I don't think the wider rims will fit the rear of my bike as I don't have much clearance. Are all of these rims considered the new wide rims?
3. This wheels will probably be use as main or back up wheels as you need 2 set of wheels for the ultra rides, the extra set in your pit area. I now weigh 183 lbs. 
Thanks
Zman


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## Zurichman (Jan 3, 2014)

Ok so I went back and looked at the 2013 wheel review that Z'mer posted.

The DT RR440 looks like a good rim. How do I know if the white hub is compatable with this wheel? I also saw it was a asymmetric rim as they had no offset wheels rated.

This is the quote in there

Without regard to any of the rims in this review. In the past we've found that asymmetric rims have tended to have higher failure rates unless the rim is reinforced & weight added to the extrusion. Perhaps a better choice to gain back the tension ratio is to use a heavier gauge drive side spoke compared to the non drive sides.

I understand the concept of using heavier gauge on the drive side but what would the specs be on this?


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## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

I had the same decision to make as you because I have no LB's that stock a range of quality hubs also getting them serviced would be a real problem as well. I started a thread recently and several wheel builders including my own recommended the White Industry's T11. Good looks, quality, durability, price, weight and ease of service were the plusses.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Whites are excellent hubs that roll well. They use good bearings.

The "wide" rims like the SL23 are like 3-4mm wider than "narrow" rims. Just about any brake ought to be able to handle that. I have a set of wheels I built with the Kinlin wide rims. They're pretty bulletproof.

The offset rear rim will make DS/NDS spoke tensions less uneven. If you have a history of breaking NDS spokes at the elbow as I do, you could use higher NDS tension. If not, don't worry about it.

I build my wheels with Sapim spokes. DT and Wheelsmith (if they still make spokes) also make good spokes.


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