# Armstrong never misses...



## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

...a chance to make an ass out of himself.

From cycling news:

"Landis didn't take offense at Armstrong's comments that even though he would not be racing any more, his Discovery Channel team would still ride against Floyd."


----------



## Silver222 (Aug 5, 2004)

Armstrong is in a different situation than every other rider though, owning a chunk of the team like he does. 

Did Landis **** his mom or something?


----------



## Minimalist (Apr 20, 2005)

It's a shame that even after Lance's retirement they still want to win races and do not ride for Landis, Basso or Ullrich.


----------



## weiwentg (Feb 3, 2004)

Minimalist said:


> It's a shame that even after Lance's retirement they still want to win races and do not ride for Landis, Basso or Ullrich.



without having heard Lance's comment in context, there is a difference between riding against someone (eg, Floyd), and just leaving them be (eg, chimera-boy during his solo break in 03). another example of vindictiveness is Manolo Saiz of ONCE and Liberty Seguros.


----------



## Henry V (May 26, 2005)

*And neither do you (nm)*

nm nm nm


----------



## KonaRider (Jul 20, 2005)

*Seriously...*

Why do you go out of your way to insult Lance? I don't understand it. Unless its just to get people riled up here. I mean, I can understand if you don't like him, but purposely looking for reasons to badmouth him...poor taste in my opinion.

Cheers,

KonaRider


----------



## ddavenport (Jul 25, 2005)

Amen!


----------



## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

KonaRider said:


> Why do you go out of your way to insult Lance? I don't understand it. Unless its just to get people riled up here. I mean, I can understand if you don't like him, but purposely looking for reasons to badmouth him...poor taste in my opinion.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> KonaRider


Agreed.


----------



## divve (May 3, 2002)

It has been repeated several times on Belgian TV. Lance didn't like what Landis said about him in regards to being a friend and boss. In return Lance promised Floyd a hard time even after he's retired. If Lance doesn't want to be insulted, he should refrain from these idiotic comments and actions.


----------



## KonaRider (Jul 20, 2005)

*I never said Lance was an angel...*

But he retired, the Tour is over. I'll admit he can be short tempered and sometimes shoot off at the mouth, but I still fail to see the point of bringing this up just to slag him. Again, only if you are trying to get people here riled up. He won. He's the best. Deal with it. 

Cheers,

KonaRider


----------



## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

*LA's rapid internet forum fanboy response team.*

the fanboys didn't take long to mount an opposition. as usual. all wearing their Lance is my homeboy shirts no doubt.<img src="https://i10.ebayimg.com/04/i/04/90/1c/0c_1_b.JPG">


----------



## KonaRider (Jul 20, 2005)

*For the record...*

I'm an Ullrich fan. I like Lance because he's the best AMERICAN athlete we have. I'm not defending his actions, I don't worship him, and I'm not going to get into some petty "Lance is better" argument. 

My comment wasn't about Lance, it was about the original poster finding ANOTHER reason to badmouth him when it really doesn't matter at this point. I mean, there is a point where it gets ridiculous and repetitive. 

The good thing about his retirement is that hopefully all this Pro Lance - Anti Lance crap will stop. 

Sorry if I'm a little short this morning, yesterday I went for my first road bike ride in almost three years and was nearly run down and hit by TWO cars. In less than 5 miles...grrr...

Cheers,

KonaRider


----------



## divve (May 3, 2002)

Best? He's not even in the top 100.

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/athletes.html


----------



## KonaRider (Jul 20, 2005)

*Ok...*

I want you to try and look really surprised that in America, cycling is not taken seriously. 

Lance is the best American, he dominates his sport, he competes in INTERNATIONAL sports (count out the NFL, MLB, NASCAR, etc). I could go on, I could defend him, but I'm not going to. 

I said my peace, I'm done. 

Cheers,

KonaRider


----------



## Minimalist (Apr 20, 2005)

What do you expect from ESPN? 

And no, I'm not a Lance fan. I'm just sick and tired of people that obviously don't understand that this is a professional sport. And these little mind games are just part of pro sports. If you don't have the intellect to understand it, that's too bad. 

Yes, he could be a nice guy like Ulle, but he could also have a doping conviction, admit to his former trainer that he doesn't have the same determination as his main rival (according to Becker), lost his DL because of a DUI and a hit and run.


----------



## whit417 (Jul 5, 2005)

Come on now, does this gut look like he could ever be an ass?


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

*In the interest of "keeping it real"...*



KonaRider said:


> Lance is the best American, he dominates his sport, he competes in INTERNATIONAL sports (count out the NFL, MLB, NASCAR, etc).


he dominates the TdF, and nothing else in his sport. It would be like a tennis player only showing up to Wimbleton (sp?) and winning every year but skipping pretty much everything else that matters or giving a half-a*s effort if they did compete. Cycling4all.com got it right, "Mr. Tour de France" is retiring, that's not to denigrate what he's accomplished but let's keep it in perspective. In his 7 year run of TdF dominance he was only briefly the number 1 ranked rider in the world.


----------



## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

KonaRider said:


> The good thing about his retirement is that hopefully all this Pro Lance - Anti Lance crap will stop


Probably not though. People will make comparisons. And so long as people cast him in an even remotely positive light, there will be people like blackhat and UCH to come along and remind us how anyone who likes Lance is just a silly fanboy.


----------



## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

Well let's see DB, Ullrich has been considered the best cyclist or at least the most talented, by pretty much everyone in the cycling world. He trains only for the Tour just as Armstrong does, and yet has never beaten him. What should we take from that? Would you ever bet against LA in any race he has made his mind up to win?


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Live Steam said:


> Well let's see DB, Ullrich has been considered the best cyclist or at least the most talented, by pretty much everyone in the cycling world. He trains only for the Tour just as Armstrong does, and yet has never beaten him. What should we take from that? Would you ever bet against LA in any race he has made his mind up to win?


Yes. Any one-day race. Simply because winning a one-day race is usually about having great legs that day, reading the race correctly, making the critical move(s), and often out-sprinting whoever is left at the end. A single moment of bad luck can cost you the race, plus Lance hasn't shown the ability to be so tactically astute in one-day races, and he surely doesn't have the sprint to ensure a victory from a small group.

Plus the issue I addressed was his dominance of the sport not if he was the "best". I don't know how anyone could argue he's dominated the sport especially since he hasn't won a single significant one-day race in the last 7 years, and few stage races other than the Tour.


----------



## mcfly (Feb 19, 2004)

i think nowadays if you want to win the tour you train for the tour, if you want to win one day classic you train for them.....you wont see one person win classics and grand tours like the Mercxs days.....but then again you never know.


----------



## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> he dominates the TdF, and nothing else in his sport. It would be like a tennis player only showing up to Wimbleton (sp?) and winning every year but skipping pretty much everything else that matters or giving a half-a*s effort if they did compete. Cycling4all.com got it right, "Mr. Tour de France" is retiring, that's not to denigrate what he's accomplished but let's keep it in perspective. In his 7 year run of TdF dominance he was only briefly the number 1 ranked rider in the world.


Actually, if you follow the other sports you would see quotes over and over again in the media from the top players (Pete Sampras, Tiger Woods, etc.) where they state that the "Grand Slams" are the only events that really matter. One could infer that the other tournaments they play in between are just tune-ups to keep them sharp leading up to their priority events, and keep their sponsors happy with some slightly more consistent visibility.

Sounds a lot like the top GT GC contenders in cycling and the way they use the smaller events to lead to build form.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

*separating professional from the personal*

I don't see anything wrong in separating Armstrong's professional accomplishments from his personal qualities-in fact, I think it's pretty useful since there's too much personal worship of atheletes, who often turn out not to be the nicest people personally. I'm in awe of Armstrong in terms of what he's accomplished professsionally and how he has become an inspiration for cancer survivors. But, that doesn't mean we have to turn the guy into a saint in terms of his personal qualities-the fact is, I think, a lot of sport champions get to be champions because they are single-minded and driven by their goals first-how else do you prepare for these events if you are a high empathy type who is always helping others out? Jordan, Carl Lewis, Bonds, Bryant- not the nicest guys in the world, and like Lance are often described by their teamates and opponents in pretty qualified language. Boonen after the tour (a former teamate) called Lance "complicated." My $$ is that this is what separates Ullrich from Armstrong-Jan is too nice and lacks that killer instinct. A lot of these guys are the people you wouldn't want to be stuck in a liferaft drifting around in the sea because they are going to point the fork at you!


----------



## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

Well maybe your right about one day races, but there isn't anyone who could out tactic LA in a stage race. He also has the best all-around ability of any present day rider. He can win any single TT or mountain race in my opinion.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Exactly. His cycling accomplishments are probably the most significant of his generation, although an arguement could be made that Museeuw or Cipollini achieved as much in their "specialty". Nonetheless to say he is the greatest ever (which I don't think he would agree with) is to engage in ignorant hyperbole.

His efforts in the cancer community are great.

Nonethless, there are no shortage of people (actually almost an abundance) that know him and/or have worked with him use all kind of words to describe him that pretty much equate to calling him an a**hole. Furthermore, he often says and has certainly behaved in ways that are less than classy. I know one person who knows him in a professional capacity thru working at a fairly high level in his cancer foundation, and he thinks he's a good guy.


----------



## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Yes. Any one-day race. Simply because winning a one-day race is usually about having great legs that day, reading the race correctly, making the critical move(s), and often out-sprinting whoever is left at the end. A single moment of bad luck can cost you the race, plus Lance hasn't shown the ability to be so tactically astute in one-day races, and he surely doesn't have the sprint to ensure a victory from a small group.
> 
> Plus the issue I addressed was his dominance of the sport not if he was the "best". I don't know how anyone could argue he's dominated the sport especially since he hasn't won a single significant one-day race in the last 7 years, and few stage races other than the Tour.


The best rider in the race will not always win a one day race. You have to get lucky and be in the right place (break) at the right time. 

In a 3 week stage race, barring accident, the strongest rider will always win. Lance rides the tour because it is THE hardest race that all the best riders shoot for. 189 of the best riders in the world are there. Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win.

We all know Lance can do serious damage in any one day race, he might not win the final sprint but he'll be there at the end no doubt. He is the strongest rider in the world right now I dont think you can take that away from him. Tactically, hes pretty darn good as well.


----------



## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

blackhat said:


> the fanboys didn't take long to mount an opposition. as usual. all wearing their Lance is my homeboy shirts no doubt.


Exactly. Their Lance worship gets in the way of noticing that he will be actively be working to prevent the success of other americans who might continue to to instill some interest in the sport. 

That's going to be an interesting team to work for next year. I can hear the radio communication now:

Lance: Hey, Popovych, Landis is at the back with a mechanical. Go hammer on the front.

Popovych: Does it really make sense for me to burn energy pursuing a petty grudge with Floyd? What did he do to you anyway?

Lance: He told the world I treat the team like employees instead of friends.

Popovych: Isn't that what you are doing to me now?

Lance. That's it. I'm putting you on my list too. George. George.

George: Yes, boss.

Lance: You are no longer allowed to help Popovych.

George: Sure thing, boss.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

huez said:


> He is the strongest rider in the world right now I dont think you can take that away from him. Tactically, hes pretty darn good as well.


I'd like to see him hold Boonen's wheel up the Muur de Gramont or one of the last sections of cobbles in Paris-Roubaix or outclimb Vino on the Cauberg. Perhaps he could, but we'll never know.

He's the best TTer and consistently among the best mountain climbers in the Tour beyond that what can we say?

Tactically a Grand Tour is not a complicated affair especially if you have a strong team, there is very little need to read the race or make tactical decisions as compared to a one-day race.


----------



## KonaRider (Jul 20, 2005)

*I'm glad this stayed civil and didn't turn into an argument*

Lots of good points of view, I love discussions like this!

I never said Lance was the greatest ever. If that's what it sounded like, I apologize. No, Lance is the greatest of his era, period. So what he only rides the Tour, it's THE TOUR. 

I definitely agree that he has the killer instinct that Jan lacks. He's not a saint and I think we need to stop putting these athletes on pedestals. They are human (well, Lance might half machine) and they are like everyone else. Outside of their sport, they screw up and do the same stupid things we do. Its just that what they do get's published and blown out of proportion by the media. If I call you an a-hole, so what. If Lance calls someone an a-hole, then its news. 

We really need to stop worshipping these guys like another poster said. Just respect them. And get both sides of the story before we judge. 

Cheers,

KonaRider


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

*agreed!*

yes, it is good to see these discussions staying civil-lots of interesting points of view. Reminds me of one of the things I like most about pro cycling. Competitors still show respect for each other. How great a moment was it when Lance reached back and shock Valverde's hand after their sprint? or when Jan congratulated Lance on his website? Or when guys in a failed breakaway shake each other's hands? To have my kids watch that is great in an era of TOs and chest pounding is a great lesson in what sportmanship is all about...


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

mcfly said:


> i think nowadays if you want to win the tour you train for the tour, if you want to win one day classic you train for them.....you wont see one person win classics and grand tours like the Mercxs days.....but then again you never know.


Cunego won both the Giro and Lombardy last year. I don't see any reason why a Grand Tour winner couldn't also win any hilly one-day race.

In fact, I don't see why a guy with the big power of Armstrong couldn't win Paris-Roubaix or the Ronde either. 

At the end of Armstrong's career I'm just left wondering if he could have been another Hinault if he had like ambition or was the TdF really "all" he had in him the last 7 years. Not even an attempt at the Giro/Tour? In short I think he gets way too much credit for being one of the "best" cyclists ever without having earned it, and what's even worse I think he might even have had the ability to earn it, and we'll (and he'll) never know because he never even tried anything outside the relative safety and sureness of the TdF, especially the last few years.


----------



## Minimalist (Apr 20, 2005)

KonaRider said:


> Lots of good points of view, I love discussions like this!
> 
> I never said Lance was the greatest ever. If that's what it sounded like, I apologize. No, Lance is the greatest of his era, period. So what he only rides the Tour, it's THE TOUR.
> 
> ...


I agree. Does anybody actually have Lance comments, that triggered Floyds reply? Maybe the bug?


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

*Cycling Champions vs. Tour Winners*



mcfly said:


> i think nowadays if you want to win the tour you train for the tour, if you want to win one day classic you train for them.....you wont see one person win classics and grand tours like the Mercxs days.....but then again you never know.


I don't quite understand why we cannot have a champion who wins classics as well as grand tours. If Lance had wanted to bust his butt and compete full seasons, he could have done so. He just wouldn't have finished with the huge Tour de France winning margins that he had. Of course he would not have won 7 Tours much less, 5 of them. Maybe he would have won more like 2 or 3 Tours, but he would have finished his career with a better rounded cycling palmares.

Let’s keep in mind, in Lance's first few years of winning the tour he participated in Liege-Bastogne-Liege, the Tour of Flanders as well as the Amstel Gold race. He said they were training races but you don't come in second to Boogerd or Dekker without trying to win. If we could turn the Ullrich criticisms around for a second, perhaps Armstrong was "too nice of a guy" and didn't possess the killer instinct to win these classics the way Merckx or Hinault did. And would it be blasphemous to say that perhaps he was not in the same league as those great champions? 

I think that in the end Lance made it easier for himself and others to win the grand tours by making it "okay" to skip the classics and not ride a full season - in essence sitting out the season and only showing up for the Super Bowl or the World Series. Lance Armstrong knew he could only successfully compete in one race a year and chose the Tour as his big race. If the next crop of grand tour contenders has the killer instinct, the fitness, and the stategic intellect, surely they too will be able to compete in and win classics as well as grand tours in the manner of the pre-Armstrong Tour winners. 

As far as his role as an inspiration to cancer survivors, for me my mom trumps Lance big time.


----------



## Alpedhuez55 (Jun 29, 2005)

mcfly said:


> i think nowadays if you want to win the tour you train for the tour, if you want to win one day classic you train for them.....you wont see one person win classics and grand tours like the Mercxs days.....but then again you never know.


Now a days? You do not have to go back that far to find a Giro/Tour winner. Marco Pantani in 1998. Big Mig did it a couple of times too and had a good record in the classics. You do not have to go that far back. We are by no means having to go back 30 years ago to Merckx or 20 Hinault to find riders who can win classics and more than one grand tour in the same year. 

Just because Lance did not try to win the Tour and either the Giro or Vuelta, does not mean others are not going to actually do it. I think you will see riders capable of it in the next few years. Maybe even Basso.

I think there are a lot of people who are disappointed that Lance never put more effort into other races. Instead he was a TDF specialist. He may have the greatest record in the TDF. But he could have been regarded as the greatest cyclist of all time. THat does not make me a Lance hater, just someone who thinks he never really reached his full potential.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Live Steam said:


> Well let's see DB, Ullrich has been considered the best cyclist or at least the most talented, by pretty much everyone in the cycling world. He trains only for the Tour just as Armstrong does, and yet has never beaten him. What should we take from that? Would you ever bet against LA in any race he has made his mind up to win?


Yes, simply because Lance could not win any race he wanted easy example would be a flat sprinter's classic too marked to get away and would be smoked in the finish. Lance is very very good at some events but not all.


----------



## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Utah CragHopper said:


> ...a chance to make an ass out of himself.
> 
> From cycling news:
> 
> "Landis didn't take offense at Armstrong's comments that even though he would not be racing any more, his Discovery Channel team would still ride against Floyd."



Lance got spit at literally by thousands, yelled at, heckled, shot down and left to die without saying a word, but because he retorted to a competitor....someone who would be shovelling **** in Eastern PA if not for Lance BTW...he's making "an ass out of himself."

Right.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Live Steam said:


> Would you ever bet against LA in any race he has made his mind up to win?


Amstel Gold?


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

huez said:


> Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win.


Not by a long shot. Many Italians would rather win the Giro; Spaniards, the Vuelta; Belgians the Ronde, and on and on.


----------



## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Utah CragHopper said:


> ...a chance to make an ass out of himself.
> 
> From cycling news:
> 
> "Landis didn't take offense at Armstrong's comments that even though he would not be racing any more, his Discovery Channel team would still ride against Floyd."


The only one making an ass out of himself is you.

Why didn't you include the URL for that 'quote' in your rant? Here is more of the quote:

"...
As for his supposed conflict with Lance Armstrong, Floyd wanted to clarify things: "I think my comments from L'Equipe [about Armstrong being more about business than friendship] were taken out of context or misunderstood...first of all, I just want to thank Lance and Johan and the team for everything they did for me. That's it."

Landis didn't take offense at Armstrong's comments that even though he would not be racing any more, his Discovery Channel team would still ride against Floyd. "It's the same feeling in the peloton. We're all impressed with what he's accomplished winning seven Tours. I was there for three of them and it seemed miraculous. How he could do it seven times is beyond me! He deserves it and congratulations to him. That's what everyone wants to say to Lance." 
..."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul26news


----------



## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

asgelle said:


> Not by a long shot. Many Italians would rather win the Giro; Spaniards, the Vuelta; Belgians the Ronde, and on and on.


I dont think you could take any pro cyclist from anywhere that had the talent to win the tour and pass it up for any of those races. Of course I cant speak for other people, but as everybody knows, the tour is THE race that is most prestigous to win. 

Sure, like you say, the Giro is very important to any Italian, but not moreso than winning the tour. ALL the best of the best shoot for the tour. Ya, they'll do their Vuelta if theyre Spanish or the Giro if theyre Italian, but the best of the best (no matter where youre from) ride the tour. Period. There is no debating that as far as I can tell.

Even the sprinters will tell you that the tour is the place to win a sprint. Nothing is more prestigous. Nothing.


----------



## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

wipeout said:


> The only one making an ass out of himself is you.


Ignore the trolls. Utah has been bitter for years, do a search and find some of his assinine posts bashing LA from years past, in fact we had him on suicide watch after the 5th Win thinking that his bitterness had finally got the better of him as he went silent for a long time. Guess he couldn't dig up any good recipes for crow. 

As for greatest cyclist, who cares, guys in the past raced all season 'cause they had to, they didn't make the salaries of the guys today. We'll see if someone can pull a double but I wouldn't bet on it. Pantani's double, now he WAS doped up so take that with a grain of salt, but you never hear the bashers wailing about that one. 

Hypocrisy is the cynics forte.


----------



## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

huez said:


> I dont think you could take any pro cyclist from anywhere that had the talent to win the tour and pass it up for any of those races. Of course I cant speak for other people, but as everybody knows, the tour is THE race that is most prestigous to win.
> 
> Sure, like you say, the Giro is very important to any Italian, but not moreso than winning the tour. ALL the best of the best shoot for the tour. Ya, they'll do their Vuelta if theyre Spanish or the Giro if theyre Italian, but the best of the best (no matter where youre from) ride the tour. Period. There is no debating that as far as I can tell.
> 
> Even the sprinters will tell you that the tour is the place to win a sprint. Nothing is more prestigous. Nothing.


This is pretty ridiculous. Here's an exact quote: "I can't speak for other people, but as everybody knows"....You're speaking for other people! Clearly you think that the tour is the most important race of the year, for everybody. Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. Something tells me Tom Boonen would rather win Paris Roubaix every year than he would the green jersey. Danilo DiLuca is considering whether he should focus on the Giro next year or stick to the one day classics. Clearly it's not as straightforward as you would like to believe. You can certainly stick to your tour-centric viewpoint, and I would agree that the tour is the only big race if you're an american on an american team. Have you ever been in Italy during the Giro? Or Belgium during the classics? No offense intended, but if you haven't, what do you know what's important or not?

Back on topic, Lance seems to hold a grudge against Floyd, since TDGeorgia well before Landis' recent comments. Frankly he can do whatever he wants, I don't care if he writes Floyd nasty emails every day. It certainly does tarnish his legacy as the classiest man in cycling, which may be the way the US press spins it, but doesn't appear to be true.

As for the fanboys asking why we go out of our way to say bad things about him, why do you go out of your way to worship him. We all have our own perspective on the man, and as long as that perspective is based in reality, we're entitled to our opinion.

Silas


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

from http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/discovery_post_tdf

"Yates also alluded to the wild card of George Hincapie, who showed in this Tour he can both climb and time trial with the best, and also to Savoldelli. However, the 32 year-old Italian said after his win in Revel on Stage 17: 'For me, the Giro is really important, and I don't know if I'm ready to sacrifice the Giro for the Tour.' "

If that's what an Italian rider on an American team thinks, Imagine what the feeling is among the Italians on Italian teams.


----------



## hatchetman (Jun 5, 2002)

To be fair to the list of greatest American athletes according to ESPN, it is a list of the greatest 20th century athletes. Lance won five of his TdFs in the 21st century (six depending on when you think the 20th century ended, but that's a whole other argument). Of course, there are several individuals on the list that I would severely question their presence on it, but that's the way it goes. We'll find out eventually if ESPN, SI, or any other outlets consider him one of the great American athletes of the 21st century when they start making updated lists.


----------



## Alpedhuez55 (Jun 29, 2005)

huez said:


> I dont think you could take any pro cyclist from anywhere that had the talent to win the tour and pass it up for any of those races. Of course I cant speak for other people, but as everybody knows, the tour is THE race that is most prestigous to win.
> 
> Sure, like you say, the Giro is very important to any Italian, but not moreso than winning the tour. ALL the best of the best shoot for the tour. Ya, they'll do their Vuelta if theyre Spanish or the Giro if theyre Italian, but the best of the best (no matter where youre from) ride the tour. Period. There is no debating that as far as I can tell.
> 
> Even the sprinters will tell you that the tour is the place to win a sprint. Nothing is more prestigous. Nothing.


I disagree. There is a large degree of National Pride involved for many riders. the Giro & Vuelta are right up there with the tour as far as importance goes. And for many riders, their home tour is much more important than the TDF.

I think we look at the TDF becauise the only coverage of other races, up until a few years ago, was a VHS videotape of highlights. We have had network coverage of the TDF for years. I think Americans preceive it as more important for that reason. Most have had little or no exposure to any other races.


----------



## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> I disagree. There is a large degree of National Pride involved for many riders. the Giro & Vuelta are right up there with the tour as far as importance goes. And for many riders, their home tour is much more important than the TDF.
> 
> I think we look at the TDF becauise the only coverage of other races, up until a few years ago, was a VHS videotape of highlights. We have had network coverage of the TDF for years. I think Americans preceive it as more important for that reason. Most have had little or no exposure to any other races.


I already said this above in a response, but the best riders in the world will not miss the tour. They will peak for the tour over their home race.

The 2nd tier guys, (Savoldelli, Heras, DiLuca, etc) will choose their home tour because they have a shot. Whereas they dont in the tour. 

Ask Heras what he'd rather win. Ask Basso. Ask Indurain.


----------



## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

asgelle said:


> from http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/discovery_post_tdf
> 
> "Yates also alluded to the wild card of George Hincapie, who showed in this Tour he can both climb and time trial with the best, and also to Savoldelli. However, the 32 year-old Italian said after his win in Revel on Stage 17: 'For me, the Giro is really important, and I don't know if I'm ready to sacrifice the Giro for the Tour.' "
> 
> If that's what an Italian rider on an American team thinks, Imagine what the feeling is among the Italians on Italian teams.


Sure, I agree, for an Italian the Giro is super important. I personally dont think Savoldelli could win the tour (who knows though). Ask Basso whats more important to him. Hes a real contender. Thats what Im trying to say, the best of the best ride the tour. None of them will miss it.


----------



## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I propose that we all agree to leave LA in peace and instead return to kicking our dogs. LA doesn't care, and the dogs have felt ignored since the beginning of the Tour.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

huez said:


> I already said this above in a response, but the best riders in the world will not miss the tour. They will peak for the tour over their home race.
> 
> The 2nd tier guys, (Savoldelli, Heras, DiLuca, etc) will choose their home tour because they have a shot. Whereas they dont in the tour.
> 
> Ask Heras what he'd rather win. Ask Basso. Ask Indurain.


This is really getting silly. First of all, it only takes one counter example to disprove a hypothesis so no matter how many names you trot out to say they prefer the Tour over every other race, it only takes 1 (Salvodelli, in the quote above) to prove the ALL riders do not think the Tour is the most important race. 

As for 2nd tier guys, where was Pettachi during this years tour, or do you regard him as a second rate sprinter.

Finally, stop moving your argument around. You said "Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win." I'm not making that up, it's in your post further up the thread. Now it's the "best riders will not miss the tour" and "2nd tier guys will choose their home race." If we keep this up, you'll be agreeing with me and claiming that's what you were saying all along.


----------



## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

wipeout said:


> Why didn't you include the URL for that 'quote' in your rant?


I wasn't aware a single sentence is a rant. But to LA pant sniffers like yourself I guess it is blasphemy to point out LA being a jerk. The immediate knee jerk reaction is to fawn all over him and tell us all how he could have won any race he wanted to, eclipsed Merckz, how the Giro and the Vuelta are for chumps, etc. Anything but address why he has to be so petty over something so trivial.

You don't think that it might just possibly be bad for U.S. cycling to have Armstrong trying to sabotage Landis career--especially over some innocuous comments on what it is like to be on Postal? What happens when Leipheimeror or Hincapie inadvertently piss him off.


----------



## SteveCnj (Oct 6, 2003)

asgelle said:


> They're sent to the corn field.


That's a good thing, a very good thing....


----------



## SteveCnj (Oct 6, 2003)

svend said:


> Pantani's double, now he WAS doped up so take that with a grain of salt, but you never hear the bashers wailing about that one.


That was never actually proven. Yes, he tested positive for a high hemocrit level, but was later exonerated in an Italian court of actually "doping" to achieve that level. 

from cyclingnews obit:
"Wearing the maglia rosa and two days away from winning the 1999 Giro d'Italia, Pantani was kicked out of the race for high haematocrit, thus beginning his downward spiral that tragically concluded today in Rimini. Pantani faced alleged sporting fraud charges in his career, but the climber from Cesenatico was never found guilty of any real charges. In 2000, Pantani did receive a three-month suspended prison sentence for high hematocrit levels, but his conviction was then overturned on appeal. In 2002, Pantani served a six month UCI ban after a syringe containing traces of insulin was found in his hotel room in the San Remo "blitz" during the 2000 Giro." 

It's disturbing that people always speak about Pantani and automatically assign guilt to him for "doping" offenses when no such proof was ever found. Like you said....



svend said:


> Hypocrisy is the cynics forte.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Utah CragHopper said:


> IWhat happens when Leipheimeror or Hincapie inadvertently piss him off.


They're sent to the corn field.


----------



## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

asgelle said:


> This is really getting silly. First of all, it only takes one counter example to disprove a hypothesis so no matter how many names you trot out to say they prefer the Tour over every other race, it only takes 1 (Salvodelli, in the quote above) to prove the ALL riders do not think the Tour is the most important race.
> 
> As for 2nd tier guys, where was Pettachi during this years tour, or do you regard him as a second rate sprinter.
> 
> Finally, stop moving your argument around. You said "Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win." I'm not making that up, it's in your post further up the thread. Now it's the "best riders will not miss the tour" and "2nd tier guys will choose their home race." If we keep this up, you'll be agreeing with me and claiming that's what you were saying all along.


Look at the relative fields at the Tour vs. Giro or Vuelta and you will see that Tour is by far more prestigious than the other two - for sprinters, stage wins, GC, etc. etc.
Savoldelli was answering a different question from what you make it out to be. I am pretty sure that if Savoldelli had an equally high shot at winning Tour or Giro, he would pick the Tour. But his chances are much better at Giro (once again, mostly because of the field) and so he says that he wouldn't jeopardize his Giro prospects (high probability of win) for rather glim prospects of winning the Tour. 

Tthe case for Tour being much more prestigious can be made relatively easily. Look at where international riders like Ulle, Vino etc. put their priorities. Even Basso with his attempt at Giro/Tour double, will likely focus entirely on Tour next year, as in retrospect it may have been a mistake to try to do both. And if not for his illness, he could have dominated the Giro field relatively easily, no disrespect to Il Falco.

Same goes for spaniards. Ullrich easily dominated Vuelta the year he skipped the tour because of his knee, but I have yet to see someone like Beloki or Heras or Mayo or even Valverde totally dominate the Tour. And speaking of Beloki - he put his Vuelta chances on hold for many years, instead trying to challenge Armstrong at the Tour.


----------



## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> I disagree. There is a large degree of National Pride involved for many riders. the Giro & Vuelta are right up there with the tour as far as importance goes. And for many riders, their home tour is much more important than the TDF.
> 
> I think we look at the TDF becauise the only coverage of other races, up until a few years ago, was a VHS videotape of highlights. We have had network coverage of the TDF for years. I think Americans preceive it as more important for that reason. Most have had little or no exposure to any other races.


I hear this a lot from Americans: "The Tour is just one of the three GT, and the only reason we americans see TdF as more special is because Armstrong chooses to ride it". 

This is not the case - at least not entirely. Almost every european will tell you that the Tour carries more prestige and brings more competitive, more international riders than Giro or Vuelta. Regardless of what is shown on american TV, Tour has always been the top event, the creme de la creme of stage races.


----------



## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

asgelle said:


> This is really getting silly. First of all, it only takes one counter example to disprove a hypothesis so no matter how many names you trot out to say they prefer the Tour over every other race, it only takes 1 (Salvodelli, in the quote above) to prove the ALL riders do not think the Tour is the most important race.
> 
> As for 2nd tier guys, where was Pettachi during this years tour, or do you regard him as a second rate sprinter.
> 
> Finally, stop moving your argument around. You said "Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win." I'm not making that up, it's in your post further up the thread. Now it's the "best riders will not miss the tour" and "2nd tier guys will choose their home race." If we keep this up, you'll be agreeing with me and claiming that's what you were saying all along.


Yes, you read my posts correctly and I'll say it again. Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win. If they dont have a chance of doing well and theyre from Italy, they'll do the Giro, but we all know if they had the talent, theyd be tearing it up at the race with all the big stars.

Guys, its obvious and even arguing is entirely silly. The tour is the most prestigous. Saying it isnt is not true. I'll say it again, the best riders will focus on the tour. Second tier guys will shoot for the Giro and the Vuelta.


----------



## Henry V (May 26, 2005)

Utah CragHopper said:


> You don't think that it might just possibly be bad for U.S. cycling to have Armstrong trying to sabotage Landis career--especially over some innocuous comments on what it is like to be on Postal? What happens when Leipheimeror or Hincapie inadvertently piss him off.


Alright, LA is not always Mr. nice guy and can be a complete a$$ from time to time, both on and off the bike. Of course, he is also committed to a great cause and has done some wonderful non-cycling things in his life. 

In any event, how do you conclude that LA is going to "sabotage" Landis's career? The CN quote states that "Landis didn't take offense at Armstrong's comments that even though he would not be racing any more, his Discovery Channel team would still ride against Floyd." Standing alone, that merely states the obvious. Discovery competes against Phonak, so of course they will be racing against him. Should LA tell his team to take it easy and give Landis a few wins just because he is an American? Now that would be a real a$$hole thing to do, because he would be sacrificing his team's success on nationalistic grounds. Also, how could he sabotage Landis's career anyway? If Landis has the legs and a good team, he controls his own destiny. There's not much that LA could do about it unless he sacrifices his team by burning them out on Landis chases. And that is inconceivable, since LA almost certainly loves money more than he dislikes Landis. 

If you could provide us with the question that LA was answering, or at least the context in which he spoke, perhaps it would make a lot more sense.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

huez said:


> Yes, you read my posts correctly and I'll say it again. Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win.


Yet the Salvodelli quote proves otherwise. He explicitly says he wouldn't jeopardize his Giro for the Tour. 


huez said:


> If they dont have a chance of doing well and theyre from Italy, they'll do the Giro, but we all know if they had the talent, theyd be tearing it up at the race with all the big stars.


Right. Like that second rate Pettacchi. I don't know how he manages to keep a pro contract.


huez said:


> Guys, its obvious and even arguing is entirely silly. The tour is the most prestigous. Saying it isnt is not true. I'll say it again, the best riders will focus on the tour. Second tier guys will shoot for the Giro and the Vuelta.


And we have another postition change. How do you get from "Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win." to "The tour is the most prestigous." To spell it out the first statement requires 100% agreement by all riders and a single exception proves it false. The second only requires a consensus.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 2, 2003)

Live Steam said:


> Well maybe your right about one day races, but there isn't anyone who could out tactic LA in a stage race. He also has the best all-around ability of any present day rider. He can win any single TT or mountain race in my opinion.


outside our little cycling obsessed cave, people believe LAi the biggest cyclist ever.. why? because he won 7 times the biggest race. because he did it after cancer. that's what my non cycling obsessed friends think. they are in awe of lance armstrong. would i burst their bubble and start yelling: you morons, he is not merckx. he doesnt race the giro yadda yada yadda. would i? of course not. 
Lance made a plan and it worked: on a worldwide global 1000 words a sec can't understand exactly what's goin on way, lance is king. 
unfair? maybe.. but isn't everything? 
i don't worship lance cause i don't worship any human being but he is for sure one tough SOB.


----------



## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

asgelle said:


> Yet the Salvodelli quote proves otherwise. He explicitly says he wouldn't jeopardize his Giro for the Tour.
> 
> Right. Like that second rate Pettacchi. I don't know how he manages to keep a pro contract.
> 
> And we have another postition change. How do you get from "Everybody and anybody in cycling would pick the tour as the race they'd want to win." to "The tour is the most prestigous." To spell it out the first statement requires 100% agreement by all riders and a single exception proves it false. The second only requires a consensus.


Youre right. Im wrong.


----------



## RiDE (May 28, 2004)

You guys fall into the trap so easily


----------



## cannondale_boy (May 6, 2004)

*LoL*



whit417 said:


> Come on now, does this gut look like he could ever be an ass?


Even his stance during pictures seeps with cockiness.


----------



## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Utah CragHopper said:


> I wasn't aware a single sentence is a rant. But to LA pant sniffers like yourself I guess it is blasphemy to point out LA being a jerk. The immediate knee jerk reaction is to fawn all over him and tell us all how he could have won any race he wanted to, eclipsed Merckz, how the Giro and the Vuelta are for chumps, etc. Anything but address why he has to be so petty over something so trivial.
> 
> You don't think that it might just possibly be bad for U.S. cycling to have Armstrong trying to sabotage Landis career--especially over some innocuous comments on what it is like to be on Postal? What happens when Leipheimeror or Hincapie inadvertently piss him off.


LA pant sniffer? LOL. Well, if I'm a LA "pant sniffer", you are a Landis jock-sniffer. I've not fawned all over him, or say he could have won any race, or eclipsed Merckz, or any of the other things you said I did. I mearly pointed out your reasoning for calling him an ass because of a Landis quote was wrong and taken out of context. Bitter Troll indeed.


----------



## Sao (Jul 31, 2003)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I'd like to see him hold Boonen's wheel up the Muur de Gramont or one of the last sections of cobbles in Paris-Roubaix or outclimb Vino on the Cauberg. Perhaps he could, but we'll never know.
> 
> He's the best TTer and consistently among the best mountain climbers in the Tour beyond that what can we say?
> 
> Tactically a Grand Tour is not a complicated affair especially if you have a strong team, there is very little need to read the race or make tactical decisions as compared to a one-day race.


He nearly won the San Francisco Grand Prix a few years ago, which some consider to be one of the hardest one-day races due to having to climb up a 16% and 18% grade repeatedly, and honestly, I don't even know if he planned on winning. This was after four Tour victories and being supported by second-tier Postal guys in that race for the most part ('cept Georgie, of course). 

Personally, I think the guy could've been the best at any cycling discipline he chose, be it as a sprinter, crit racer, one-day or multi-day racer. He chose the Tour because, as someone else remarked, probably any cyclist would pick that race as the one they wish they could win.


----------



## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

wipeout said:


> I mearly pointed out your reasoning for calling him an ass because of a Landis quote was wrong and taken out of context.


There is nothing taken out of context in the part I posted. In the original source it is surrounded by Landis making nice to Armstrong, but how Landis feels about it is irrelevant to my post. Yeah, I'd have to say that Armstrong threatening to hound Floyd, even after he retires, for an imagined insult qualifies as making as ass out of himself--just like chasing down Simeoni did last year.

I didn't notice all of you sycophants jumping up to say Landis was being wronged.

The Tour is over and LA is retired. Shouldn't you be selling your Trek on EBay and moving on to the next fad sport?


----------



## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

Utah CragHopper said:


> There is nothing taken out of context in the part I posted. In the original source it is surrounded by Landis making nice to Armstrong, but how Landis feels about it is irrelevant to my post. Yeah, I'd have to say that Armstrong threatening to hound Floyd, even after he retires, for an imagined insult qualifies as making as ass out of himself--just like chasing down Simeoni did last year.
> 
> I didn't notice all of you sycophants jumping up to say Landis was being wronged.
> 
> The Tour is over and LA is retired. Shouldn't you be selling your Trek on EBay and moving on to the next fad sport?


The bitterness is so damn funny. Your boys got their a$$'s handed to them 7 count 'em seven straight years and now all you are reduced to is calling him an a-hole for some off the cuff comment and how he didn't race this or didn't race that. Give it up, you lost. The man you hate brought out the can of wup a$$ and sprayed y'all like a dog marking his territory. Cracks me up. Maybe there is some element of the love that shan't be spoken at work here, attack that which in your heart of hearts you so deeply wish to share. LOL. He has retired so now perhaps you can focus your trite, bitter, whiney, lamentations somewhere else.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Sf Gp*

is certainly a tough course but its lack of huge international competition is what keeps it from being anywhere close to the 'classics'. if they could get the creme de la creme of riders they'd have something. as far as toughest 1 dayers anyone wanna take a pick

I'm thinking L-B-L or R-V-V


----------



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Utah CragHopper said:


> "Landis didn't take offense at Armstrong's comments that even though he would not be racing any more, his Discovery Channel team would still ride against Floyd."


The humorous part of this is that Floyd is really good friends with everybody on Discovery except Lance. In fact, to a man most of the riders on the team like Floyd better than Lance. It'll be difficult for Tex to get guys to ride against Floyd from the sidelines. I can hear it now " Ya Lance were chasing him" While thinking "shut up d**khead" your retired".


----------



## Alpedhuez55 (Jun 29, 2005)

huez said:


> I already said this above in a response, but the best riders in the world will not miss the tour. They will peak for the tour over their home race.
> 
> The 2nd tier guys, (Savoldelli, Heras, DiLuca, etc) will choose their home tour because they have a shot. Whereas they dont in the tour.
> 
> Ask Heras what he'd rather win. Ask Basso. Ask Indurain.


Actually Indurain also won two Giros.

If Armstrong's greatest impact on cycling is that the best cyclists will not try to win any of the other grand tours and just concentrate on the Tour, then I think he did cycling a disservice. 

I personally think we will see cyclist capible of winning both tours. Just because Lance only concentrated on one, does not mean others will do the same.


----------



## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

OnTheRivet said:


> It'll be difficult for Tex to get guys to ride against Floyd from the sidelines. I can hear it now " Ya Lance were chasing him" While thinking "shut up d**khead" your retired".


Certainly it will be difficult for him to exert the same amount of control as when he was an active rider. This can easily be solved with some simple managerial techniques. I suggest a teamwide meeting every two weeks where Armstrong briefs the team on any new additions to his enemies list. A soigneur can be used as an enforcer. Anyone who doesn't toe the line will be given less food in their musette. The sharing of food between teammates will be a punishable action.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

*I Agree.*



SteveCnj said:


> That was never actually proven. Yes, he tested positive for a high hemocrit level, but was later exonerated in an Italian court of actually "doping" to achieve that level.
> 
> It's disturbing that people always speak about Pantani and automatically assign guilt to him for "doping" offenses when no such proof was ever found. Like you said....


There are probably more people who accuse Lance of doping than there ever were accusing Pantani of the same. As far as I'm concerned they have both passed the doping tests of their day and should be accorded the respect deserved of clean champion cyclists. Pantani was a great climber and a great cyclist. Let the man have the peace and reverence he never had while he was alive.


----------



## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> Actually Indurain also won two Giros.
> 
> If Armstrong's greatest impact on cycling is that the best cyclists will not try to win any of the other grand tours and just concentrate on the Tour, then I think he did cycling a disservice.
> 
> I personally think we will see cyclist capible of winning both tours. Just because Lance only concentrated on one, does not mean others will do the same.


Yes, he won two Giros. My point is the Tour is the one where the cream of the crop show up to do battle. Its cyclings biggest event, bar none. Yes, there are lots of other huge races. The classics are huge. But personally, I dont think theyre as big as the tour.

Maybe he did do cycling a disservice by only focusing on that one event. He probably should have done more races. There are a lot of things that we all should have done. 

I think when all is said and done, Lance did a lot for our sport. I dont think we realize the hole he's gonna leave. He is a legend, we will not see another rider like him probably ever. That day he chased down Kloden to get the stage win in last years tour comes to mind. He is a fighter, a scrapper. Ya, hes pretty darn conservative in the tour, but I think it paid off albeit a bit boring to watch sometimes.

I agree, there will be someone who can do both the Giro and the Tour. Lance wanted to focus on the Tour. I guess some people think thats a bad choice. There are a number of other cyclists we need to start complaining about too then.


----------



## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

I'm glad someone like Ulrich and Basso are there to compete and bring
out the best in someone.






KonaRider said:


> I'm an Ullrich fan. I like Lance because he's the best AMERICAN athlete we have. I'm not defending his actions, I don't worship him, and I'm not going to get into some petty "Lance is better" argument.
> 
> My comment wasn't about Lance, it was about the original poster finding ANOTHER reason to badmouth him when it really doesn't matter at this point. I mean, there is a point where it gets ridiculous and repetitive.
> 
> ...


----------



## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

"the relative safety and sureness of the TdF", Dwayne.

I dunno about that.


----------



## esbike (Jul 4, 2005)

*wow*



Alpedhuez55 said:


> THat does not make me a Lance hater, just someone who thinks he never really reached his full potential.



Amazing. The guy recovers from cancer to go on and win the TdF seven times in a row, creates a hugely successful cancer foundation, and energizes a nation to become interested in what was an ignored sport, and he falls short of his "potential". You are tough my friend. I wouldn't want you to be my coach or father.

His record is his record. He has done something amazing and never done before. His palmares is very different from previous riders. I think I can appreciate it for what is is, rather than worrying about exactly how it compares to others.


----------



## Sao (Jul 31, 2003)

Utah CragHopper said:


> I wasn't aware a single sentence is a rant. But to LA pant sniffers like yourself I guess it is blasphemy to point out LA being a jerk. The immediate knee jerk reaction is to fawn all over him and tell us all how he could have won any race he wanted to, eclipsed Merckz, how the Giro and the Vuelta are for chumps, etc. Anything but address why he has to be so petty over something so trivial.
> 
> You don't think that it might just possibly be bad for U.S. cycling to have Armstrong trying to sabotage Landis career--especially over some innocuous comments on what it is like to be on Postal? What happens when Leipheimeror or Hincapie inadvertently piss him off.


Listen, it has nothing to do with pant sniffing, triviality, failed expectations, Merckx or blasphemy.

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine, who is the most casual of cycling fans, i.e., he isn't one other than he knows who Lance Armstrong is. When I mentioned to him that he had a lot of naysayers he laughed and said "What do you mean? He has enemies? Isn't that impossible?" When I went on to tell him that the harshest criticisms were coming from within the cycling community, he was flabbergasted. He just didn't understand. That is the opinion of the average non-cycling fan, by the way, if they even give a crap at all. They hear that a guy has won a 2000+ mile race for seven straight years and it is beyond their comprehension.

It is idiotic to take something so "trivial" as a comment made by a guy to another guy at the top level of a professional sport and turn it into a whiny ongoing rant about what a bad person he is for daring to speak his mind, despite all he has done on and off the bike, despite his friendships with Merckx himself, Hinault, Ullrich, Basso, etc., and despite winning seven Tours de France. You'd be surprised how many people in and out of this country aren't even aware that there are professional bike racers. Credit should also go to Greg Lemond for opening the door for Americans to a traditionally European sport, something Armstrong himself has acknowledged time and again.

It is certainly no secret that most other pro cyclists think the world of the guy. Landis himself harbors no ill will but you and all of these other anonymous Internet trollers with no balls do? And that also goes for all these retro-cool Major Taylor "fans" who act like they remember the guy's accomplishments - and no, that is not intended to be a knock on Taylor.

Get on your friggin' bike and do 1% of what that guy has done, then come back here with a point because it's clear that if he had won 20 Tours, 20 Giros and 20 Vueltas, people of your ilk would still find some way to diminish it somehow. You spend your lives looking for dents and scratches on a Rolls.


----------



## divve (May 3, 2002)

Everyone says something silly now and then. I've never took notice of anything negative regarding the guy....I don't even know him. However, this vindictive thing, apparently is something more than an isolated case. According to insiders, he has displayed it throughout his career.

..that Rolls analogy might be a better one than you realize...it's all nice and shiny on the outside, a mark with great heritage. Too bad they actually have a crappy track record on reliability (new BMW powered version notwithstanding).


----------



## Alpedhuez55 (Jun 29, 2005)

MaRider said:


> I hear this a lot from Americans: "The Tour is just one of the three GT, and the only reason we americans see TdF as more special is because Armstrong chooses to ride it".
> 
> This is not the case - at least not entirely. Almost every european will tell you that the Tour carries more prestige and brings more competitive, more international riders than Giro or Vuelta. Regardless of what is shown on american TV, Tour has always been the top event, the creme de la creme of stage races.


Obviously the Tour is the most important cycling race in the world. What I am trying to say is the Giro and Vuelta are not held in as high of a regard that they deserve in America. For years, the only international cycling race that even got a sniff of coverage here was the Tour. Andy Hampsten winning the Giro barely got a mention in the mainstream US press, let alone TV coverage, yet is the second greatest stage race in the world. Neither did Armstrong or LeMond winning the World Championship.

So I am not trying to imply the Tour is just another grand tour. I am just saying that the other grand tours are not veiwed as being as important as they are by most Americans due to exclusive mainstream media focus on the Tour. I hope that clarifies my point.


----------



## SteveCnj (Oct 6, 2003)

Utah CragHopper said:


> Certainly it will be difficult for him to exert the same amount of control as when he was an active rider. This can easily be solved with some simple managerial techniques. I suggest a teamwide meeting every two weeks where Armstrong briefs the team on any new additions to his enemies list. A soigneur can be used as an enforcer. Anyone who doesn't toe the line will be given less food in their musette. The sharing of food between teammates will be a punishable action.


Maybe this board can help by compiling a "Friends of Lance" list and an "Enemies of Lance" list. I'll start

Enemies

Floyd Landis
That Simeoni guy who wasn't allowed to do his job


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

YGB321 said:


> "the relative safety and sureness of the TdF", Dwayne.
> 
> I dunno about that.


Well sure, they had a formulae that worked. They had about as sure a thing in cycling as exists, almost as sure a thing as the certain stage wins for the teams that brought guys like Cipollini, McEwen or Petacchi. The Lance "team" knew how to get him in peak form for about a month around July that made it almost a certainly that nobody was going to beat him especially by the end of his run. There was only one year that any other rider (Ullrich) was even in the same class as far as power/drag and power/weight ratios and recovery ability such that it was a close race. The last few years the only questions were is some new guy going to come along to match Armstrong, is something going to go wrong this year and he won't achieve his normal form, or will his recovery ability decline as he gets older. Usually by the 1st mountain top finish the conclusion was already inevitable barring the normal exceptions.

They never messed with that formula. In fact they may have even backed off because a few years ago he was at least making a good attempt at the Amstel Gold race. He should have tried more. Hell, most years he even stopped for all intents right after the Tour with no attempt at a World Championships or a Lombardy.


----------



## Alpedhuez55 (Jun 29, 2005)

esbike said:


> Amazing. The guy recovers from cancer to go on and win the TdF seven times in a row, creates a hugely successful cancer foundation, and energizes a nation to become interested in what was an ignored sport, and he falls short of his "potential". You are tough my friend. I wouldn't want you to be my coach or father.
> 
> His record is his record. He has done something amazing and never done before. His palmares is very different from previous riders. I think I can appreciate it for what is is, rather than worrying about exactly how it compares to others.


I have never belittled his acheivements on or off the bike. I am a fan of cycling history and appreciate his palmares for what they are. I have said we will likely never see another 7 time winner in our lifetime and regard him as the greatest American Cyclist ever. On a personal note, I even had my father read his first book when he had his cancer surgey two years ago.

I am just saying he could have done more. He could either race to try to win or ride support in the Vuelta without effecting his peaking for the tour. He could have attempted to stay in race shape for a couple extra months to try to win a World Time Trial Championship. 

I am sure the demands put on him by his sponsors, starting a family and growing his foundation had an effect on his decision not to race in other events. But as a cycling fan, I would have liked to have seen him have more wins outside of the month of July. I think Lance had the potential to be one of the two the greatest all-around cyclist if all time. But we never got a chance to see if could have been. And for that reason, I will always regard Hinault, Coppi, Indurain and Merckx as better all around cyclists than Lance.


----------



## patchito (Jun 30, 2005)

Utah CragHopper said:


> ...a chance to make an ass out of himself.
> 
> From cycling news:
> 
> "Landis didn't take offense at Armstrong's comments that even though he would not be racing any more, his Discovery Channel team would still ride against Floyd."


What? *You're* accusing *him* of being petty and an "ass". Hello Pot, meet Kettle. 

What's Utahfaghopper gonna do now that Lance has retired? How will he continue to maintain his elitist credentials without Lance to kick around any more? What will he do when the Lance rumor mill dries up? Can he continue to be the fashionable contrarian? I have no worries, pompous pretension always finds a way to rise to the top.


----------



## patchito (Jun 30, 2005)

SteveCnj said:


> Maybe this board can help by compiling a "Friends of Lance" list and an "Enemies of Lance" list. I'll start
> 
> Enemies
> 
> ...


Has it occured to any of you that you sound about as catty as a bunch of sorority girls on the rag? 

"Ooooh Myyyy GOD!!! I just heard from So-And-So that she said this about her and now her friend is like totally pissed off and won't talk to her, and so now she's mad at me cuz I told you about it....blah blah blah."


----------



## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

patchito said:


> What? *You're* accusing *him* of being petty and an "ass". Hello Pot, meet Kettle.
> 
> What's Utahfaghopper gonna do now that Lance has retired? How will he continue to maintain his elitist credentials without Lance to kick around any more? What will he do when the Lance rumor mill dries up? Can he continue to be the fashionable contrarian? I have no worries, pompous pretension always finds a way to rise to the top.


It appears Utah has already shown his grim future. He's off actually discussing racing in another thread. What a idiot. 

Silas


----------



## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

patchito said:


> Has it occured to any of you that you sound about as catty as a bunch of sorority girls on the rag?
> 
> "Ooooh Myyyy GOD!!! I just heard from So-And-So that she said this about her and now her friend is like totally pissed off and won't talk to her, and so now she's mad at me cuz I told you about it....blah blah blah."


Only thing worse is someone who whines about catty sorority girls on the rag.... hah!


----------



## patchito (Jun 30, 2005)

wipeout said:


> Only thing worse is someone who whines about catty sorority girls on the rag.... hah!


Yes, that wasn't very fair of me. I apologize.

Actually, the comparison is an insult to menstruating sorority girls.


----------



## SteveCnj (Oct 6, 2003)

patchito said:


> Has it occured to any of you that you sound about as catty as a bunch of sorority girls on the rag?
> 
> "Ooooh Myyyy GOD!!! I just heard from So-And-So that she said this about her and now her friend is like totally pissed off and won't talk to her, and so now she's mad at me cuz I told you about it....blah blah blah."


You do realize that I was being sarcastic about compiling a list. I'm sure some here would like to put together such as list and send it to the proper authorities (??who??, not sure, LeBlanc maybe), but I was just joking.

Maybe you're taking this way to seriously.


----------



## patchito (Jun 30, 2005)

cannondale_boy said:


> Even his stance during pictures seeps with cockiness.


PLEASE tell me you were being facetious!! 

"OMG.....just look at the way he's standing there! I hate him!!"


----------



## patchito (Jun 30, 2005)

SteveCnj said:


> That was never actually proven. Yes, he tested positive for a high hemocrit level, but was later exonerated in an Italian court of actually "doping" to achieve that level.
> 
> from cyclingnews obit:
> "Wearing the maglia rosa and two days away from winning the 1999 Giro d'Italia, Pantani was kicked out of the race for high haematocrit, thus beginning his downward spiral that tragically concluded today in Rimini. Pantani faced alleged sporting fraud charges in his career, but the climber from Cesenatico was never found guilty of any real charges. In 2000, Pantani did receive a three-month suspended prison sentence for high hematocrit levels, but his conviction was then overturned on appeal. In 2002, Pantani served a six month UCI ban after a syringe containing traces of insulin was found in his hotel room in the San Remo "blitz" during the 2000 Giro."
> ...


It wasn't "proven" because they didn't have an actual test for EPO when he was accused. But come on! At one point, he was tested and showed a hemotocrit of 60!!


----------



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

patchito said:


> What? *You're* accusing *him* of being petty and an "ass". Hello Pot, meet Kettle.
> 
> What's Utahfaghopper gonna do now that Lance has retired? How will he continue to maintain his elitist credentials without Lance to kick around any more? What will he do when the Lance rumor mill dries up? Can he continue to be the fashionable contrarian? I have no worries, pompous pretension always finds a way to rise to the top.


Do you know that since you started posting (50 posts so far) that only 2 of your posts on this website have not been Lance related. Seriously, do you work for Discovery PR?


----------



## patchito (Jun 30, 2005)

OnTheRivet said:


> Do you know that since you started posting (50 posts so far) that only 2 of your posts on this website have not been Lance related. Seriously, do you work for Discovery PR?


Wow! impressive research. Do you collect this information for RBR or are you just a stalker?

Let's see, I started popping on here to talk about the Tour because it happened to be topical, and, tangentially, I guess the discussion will inevitably be steered to the guy who's won it the last 6 times. Go figure.


----------



## mb168 (Jan 3, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Tactically a Grand Tour is not a complicated affair especially if you have a strong team, there is very little need to read the race or make tactical decisions as compared to a one-day race.


Bet there's 20 other teams that could disagree that point.


----------



## EpicX (Mar 11, 2002)

jesus some of you girls need to calm down. 

those of you that seem to be suggesting that lance could not win a one day race or one of the classics must be deluded. Are you seriously saying that the man is physically and tactically not capable of winning one if he chose to focus on the event? That's what it sounds like. What do you base that on? I'm not saying that he WOULD win, but the past performances in amstel etc. prove that he can be there in the final. Sprinting is like any aspect of racing, you can improve it just like your time trialing and climbing, although sometimes at the expense of other skills.

the lame argument someone gave about 1 negative statement invalidating someone's entire statement is so 3rd grade. you want to sit here and nitpick every phrase and fragment while ignoring the message. "see out of 15000 people i found one that disagrees, so the other 14999 are just wrong." ask the majority of pro cyclists what race they would want to win if they were physically capable of winning any race and see how many DON'T say the tour. i could be wrong, but damn few i'd suspect. 

and i agree about the Major Taylor thing. it sounds as desparate-to-be-cool as it gets. with all the crap about comparing lance to merckx not being apples to apples, how could you even try to bring up a guy that raced on the track 100 years ago? regardless of victories, at least lance/merckx are in the modern cyling era. 

Sao - well said.

UtahCragHopper - wow. you know, i have NEVER heard anything spoken by lance that comes even close to the egotistical, elitist, obsessive vitriol that comes out of your computer on a regular basis. i could almost suspect that you are a pro racer or the close friend of one that feels slighted by lance. no, seriously, you have a HUGE chip on your shoulder about the man and waste NO opportunity to slam and resort to personal attacks on him. it really seems to go way beyond not liking the lance fanboys and into the realm of a personal grudge.


----------



## EpicX (Mar 11, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I'd like to see him hold Boonen's wheel up the Muur de Gramont or one of the last sections of cobbles in Paris-Roubaix or outclimb Vino on the Cauberg. Perhaps he could, but we'll never know.
> 
> He's the best TTer and consistently among the best mountain climbers in the Tour beyond that what can we say?
> 
> Tactically a Grand Tour is not a complicated affair especially if you have a strong team, there is very little need to read the race or make tactical decisions as compared to a one-day race.



come on, boonen couldn't even drop hincapie this year. with the exception of the ronde, boonen wins with his sprint. could lance outsprint him? i doubt it, could he be there for it, easily. lance is smart enough to make the final selection, and i don't think there's a hill in europe that he could be DROPPED on if he's in good racing form.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

*The Giro, the Vuelta and the Classics*



Alpedhuez55 said:


> I think there are a lot of people who are disappointed that Lance never put more effort into other races. Instead he was a TDF specialist. He may have the greatest record in the TDF. But he could have been regarded as the greatest cyclist of all time. THat does not make me a Lance hater, just someone who thinks he never really reached his full potential.


If Lance had chosen to ride the Giro and the Vuelta or some of the spring and fall classics instead of going for wins #'s 6 and 7 in the Tour he would have done a lot more to raise pro cycling awareness here in the US. "Yes America, there is more to cycling than the Tour DAY France". 

And think of the coverage we would have gotten on OLN!


.


----------



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Alpedhuez55 said:


> And for that reason, I will always regard Hinault, Coppi, Indurain and Merckx as better all around cyclists than Lance.


Merckx and Hinault absolutley, maybe Coppi, heck II might even throw Jalabert in there but I'd probably put Tex above Indurain because of his early career classics and worlds wins.


----------



## txzen (Apr 6, 2005)

Man, you people are right on track. This Armstrong guy is such an a$$hole. Just read what he said:

(In reference to whether he could still win it again next year)


> That wouldn’t be fair to say but what’s the classification? Four minutes and 40 seconds to second place. Nobody can tell you what happens year after year. You turn 34, you turn 35, the others make a big step up and when your age catches up you make a big step down. So next year, if I continued, could be the year that I lose by five minutes. But we’re never going to know. It’s nice to win one with a big cushion and to say that you out with a good sporting performance, but it wouldn’t be fair to next year’s winner, to say ‘You're lucky I didn't show up, you're lucky I retired’. I’m not going to say that. Let's just watch next year’s race and let the champion be the champion and watch them start a new streak.


link 

What a jerk.


----------



## Alpedhuez55 (Jun 29, 2005)

OnTheRivet said:


> Merckx and Hinault absolutley, maybe Coppi, heck II might even throw Jalabert in there but I'd probably put Tex above Indurain because of his early career classics and worlds wins.


In addition to 5 Tours and numerous classics wins Big Mig also won the Giro in 92 & 93 & finished 3rd in 94 (all three years in which he also won the TDF), He has podiumed in the Vuelta, and 1996 Olympic TT Gold Medal and on the track, a World Hour Record.

I think if you look at their careers in a while, it is easy to rank Indurain over Armstrong.


----------



## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

Why do people like you and the media fuel the fire with this floyd landis is an enemy of lance?

That is not the case. You must of not heard Landis's comments that the media
must of blown it out of proportion.





SteveCnj said:


> Maybe this board can help by compiling a "Friends of Lance" list and an "Enemies of Lance" list. I'll start
> 
> Enemies
> 
> ...


----------



## SteveCnj (Oct 6, 2003)

patchito said:


> It wasn't "proven" because they didn't have an actual test for EPO when he was accused. But come on! At one point, he was tested and showed a hemotocrit of 60!!


I don't know, that whole proof thing, while so tedious, seems to be pretty important when you're talking about taking away someones ability to make a living, destroying their life, pushing them into depression and driving them to commit suicide, no?


----------



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

OnTheRivet said:


> Do you know that since you started posting (50 posts so far) that only 2 of your posts on this website have not been Lance related. Seriously, do you work for Discovery PR?


There are several people here who fall into that catagory. One joined and got so "lance is a doper" that they actually created the doping forum becuase of his non-stop ranting on the topic.


----------



## SteveCnj (Oct 6, 2003)

bas said:


> Why do people like you and the media fuel the fire with this floyd landis is an enemy of lance?
> 
> That is not the case. You must of not heard Landis's comments that the media
> must of blown it out of proportion.


You did see my post of 3 HOURS AGO, where I explained how I was being sarcastic? I thought that was evident in the original post. Oh well.


----------

