# Contador Is Innocent



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

There are no tests or reports to prove he is innocent... but if you'd just spent the past year fighting doping allegations and you had actually been doping, would you really have the stones to attack the Giro like AC has been doing? 

He is kicking so much butt out there that he looks like he's doping, but why would he even want to bring that kind of attention onto himself? 

If, maybe, he was really good, but doped a little, then stopped, you'd expect that he'd be holding back to be like a regular superstar rider without riding like he is doping. Maybe even feigning a difficulty here or there to look human. 

This kind of performance will only attract scrutiny as if he is daring them to test him to show he is clean.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Dajianshan said:


> There are no tests or reports to prove he is innocent... but if you'd just spent the past year fighting doping allegations and you had actually been doping, would you really have the stones to attack the Giro like AC has been doing?
> 
> He is kicking so much butt out there that he looks like he's doping, but why would he even want to bring that kind of attention onto himself?
> 
> ...



He was caught and suspended; then cleared by his motherland; now waiting for a verdict on the appeal.



Read: He was caught and suspended. Period.


----------



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Then amend that:

Alberto Contador is a total F-ing moreon for riding like that with a doping charge hanging over his head.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Dajianshan said:


> Then amend that:
> 
> Alberto Contador is a total F-ing moreon for riding like that with a doping charge hanging over his head.


One has to wonder AC's incredible performance at Giro with the doping suspension hanging over his head.

No doubt about it.


----------



## nismo73 (Jul 29, 2009)

AC is going up 15% grades like I go down -15% grades...there's something going on here...


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

He is alleged to have used clenbuterol. Very minor league doping, actually a weight loss aid, it's not a performance enhancer. I know lots of BBers who use it. It does nothing for performance.


----------



## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Somebody should look for a secret motor on his bike, 'cause there ain;t no drug on this earth that can produce these results.


----------



## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Lance is jealous!


----------



## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

If he was just cheating with clenbuterol, he's just *that* good to begin with and won't have any problem simply not using it this time around. If the traces of clenbuterol were a lingering result of a blood transfusion, he'll just be more careful and again not take clenbuterol, in which cause he'll still have his transfusions to get him by. And of course, if he accidentally got it into his system by eating meat, he's just unlucky. Either way, it was expected he would do well again this year.


----------



## jmlapoint (Sep 4, 2008)

Maybe someone should ask Lance for his input on AC?


----------



## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

jmlapoint said:


> Maybe someone should ask Lance for his input on AC?


It'll never come out of him.

I can agree with the OP as things can easily be implicitly headed in such a direction, but it's too soon to say because at the same time there's a certain 7-time Tour winner who was under scrutiny and still kicking ass at the same time. And right now, the heat hasn't fallen off his back just yet.

Real question is would Contador just dope up for a last stand of (false) satisfaction through a Giro win? It just seems dumb on all accounts, but you never know. Contador's strong showings have always looked supernatural, and we can never be too sure about how it comes about.

Weirdly all coming from an AC fan.


----------



## MtZoncolan (May 22, 2011)

Two things: With regard to doping in pro sports -- I'm not naive. Second, Contador is outclassing the other riders -- period!


----------



## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

yeah with the help of some new super drug with blood transfusions, his own, not some others a la hamilton.
he is not just using clen...duh...


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> He is alleged to have used clenbuterol. Very minor league doping, actually a weight loss aid, it's not a performance enhancer. I know lots of BBers who use it. It does nothing for performance.


since the game for climbers is to increase your power/weight ratio, losing weight enhances performance as much as gains in power.


----------



## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

I like Contador, but his repeat attack ability is much higher than before - this is a trademark effect of EPO and transfusion usage.

I'm inclined to think that he has found a *very, very good* Preprator with the help of Riis (Mr. 60%). I'm starting to wonder if there is a Balco like lab which is able to produce exogeneous EPO that falls within the WADA specs for endogenous EPO with the current electrophoresis test methods.

Riders also can be grouped into high responders and low responders. Armstrong and Contador are probably in a class of their own in terms of their response to EPO.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> He is alleged to have used clenbuterol. Very minor league doping, actually a weight loss aid, it's not a performance enhancer. I know lots of BBers who use it. It does nothing for performance.


Go back and read post #2.


There is no 'alleged'.

He. Got. Caught.


----------



## ilmaestro (May 3, 2008)

AJL said:


> Armstrong and Contador are probably in a class of their own in terms of their response to EPO.


Agree, and also agree with others that his ability to attack so explosively on such steep grades, over and over, is kinda ridiculous.


----------



## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

ilmaestro said:


> Agree, and also agree with others that his ability to attack so explosively on such steep grades, over and over, is kinda ridiculous.


And he does it day after day.


----------



## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Cableguy said:


> If he was just cheating with clenbuterol, he's just *that* good to begin with and won't have any problem simply not using it this time around. If the traces of clenbuterol were a lingering result of a blood transfusion, he'll just be more careful and again not take clenbuterol, in which cause he'll still have his transfusions to get him by. And of course, if he accidentally got it into his system by eating meat, he's just unlucky. Either way, it was expected he would do well again this year.


There are obviously folks on here who still don't understand the real significance of his testing positive for traces of clenbuterol, just as you can't understand the full meaning of Landis' positive in the Tour if you think he actually used testosterone the day or night before and got busted.

We are not talking about a little extra testosterone through a patch, or a weight loss drug. We are talking about sophisticated blood transfusions over time--the creme de la creme of all doping practices. The rest of the drugs all have smaller, incremental effects compared to adding blood. The next biggie is the new forms of EPO, but they have to be more careful with that stuff and are probably using microdoses over time.

I'm about as inclined to believe Contador is clean right now as I am to believe Armstrong is innocent--which is pretty much zero.


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

If Contador was so fast before he tested positive and abruptly slows down after he is caught/vindicated, I would think THAT would be more suspicious and in-line with him being a doper.

Going from dominating nearly every race, to testing positive and cleared of charges, to not winning races anymore implies he _was_ doping and stopped/pulled back his routine. A consistent performance is less likely to be suspicious than a sudden drop in performance after being caught for doping.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Like Di Luca or even Basso.

Then you have guys like Scarponi who ride as well as they ever did or even better after coming back from suspension.

I always wonder about the guys who have one or two years with great results and then sort of fall off the map for the most part (e.g. at one time both Popovych and Cioni were protagonists in the Giro, but for years now they've been pack fodder).


----------



## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Like Di Luca or even Basso.
> 
> Then you have guys like Scarponi who ride as well as they ever did or even better after coming back from suspension.
> 
> I always wonder about the guys who have one or two years with great results and then sort of fall off the map for the most part (e.g. at one time both Popovych and Cioni were protagonists in the Giro, but for years now they've been pack fodder).


I'm guessing that in order to reduce the likelihood of being caught, a smaller number of guys are doping. So a GC guy may have only one or two domestiques for the high mountains and that's it. Everyone beyond that is 'on their own', so to speak.


----------



## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Dajianshan said:


> There are no tests or reports to prove he is innocent... but if you'd just spent the past year fighting doping allegations and you had actually been doping, would you really have the stones to attack the Giro like AC has been doing?
> 
> He is kicking so much butt out there that he looks like he's doping, but why would he even want to bring that kind of attention onto himself?
> 
> ...


Your logic is somewhat flawed.
Doping or no doping allegations, AC may not get to ride the TdF this year. If he is to go down, might as well go down with a bang and win at least one grand tour. Besides why would Riis have him sit on the sidelines and wait for the ASO/UCI/CAS to make up their minds?

Yes he is kicking butt but against who? Nibali and Scarponi. They're great riders but neither of them are Andy Schleck. If he does that to Andy in July, then I too would be rolling my eyes.

As dominant as he seems, it's still nothing compared to what Basso did to the competition during the 2006 Giro.


----------



## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

He reminds me entirely of Lance. Even his riding style is just like him. I never liked AC but doped or not, I think like lance, he'd still be king right now. I still prefer the Giro and the climbs to the TDF, so in a way he ruined this years race. AC fans of course would say the opposite.
Could it be these guys have a season of "extra" prep, then race 100% clean. They dope their teams to the gills to haul them all over the place and make an easy race leaving them well rested for the hard parts? I see that with Lance, and it works better in the TDF. The shallower slopes allow a team trial most of the way up the mountain, and they always launched a rested Lance. 

He's clean now, but his off season requires clen in order to mask things if he's tested.


----------



## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

AC is just trying harder than the rest


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

If we can't catch him now, he's either clean, found the miracle doping drug/routine, or the system is completely broken. 

Last night there was a discussion on Universal Sports that perhaps they're not chasing as hard because there's the chance he'll have his victory stripped and #2 will get the win. This has been a very odd Giro to say the least.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*yes, how about that*



MG537 said:


> Your logic is somewhat flawed.
> Doping or no doping allegations, AC may not get to ride the TdF this year. If he is to go down, might as well go down with a bang and win at least one grand tour. Besides why would Riis have him sit on the sidelines and wait for the ASO/UCI/CAS to make up their minds?
> 
> Yes he is kicking butt but against who? Nibali and Scarponi. They're great riders but neither of them are Andy Schleck. If he does that to Andy in July, then I too would be rolling my eyes.
> ...


Yes, and Basso doped. They all dope. 

But the whle Basso did great, well, so did Coppi and so did Merckx, the deal though is, we should not be seeing these gaps, not today. SUPPOSEDLY, its all so speacialized, one person could nopt possibly dominate all GT's. THEN most, not all, will mention Pantani. He doped. BIG TIME


----------



## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

MG537 said:


> As dominant as he seems, it's still nothing compared to what Basso did to the competition during the 2006 Giro.


Yeah, that was crazy. At times on the climbs he didn't even look like he was working all that hard. No wonder he got busted.


----------



## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

MG537 said:


> Your logic is somewhat flawed.
> Doping or no doping allegations, AC may not get to ride the TdF this year. If he is to go down, might as well go down with a bang and win at least one grand tour. Besides why would Riis have him sit on the sidelines and wait for the ASO/UCI/CAS to make up their minds?
> 
> Yes he is kicking butt but against who? Nibali and Scarponi. They're great riders but neither of them are Andy Schleck. If he does that to Andy in July, then I too would be rolling my eyes.
> ...


Seems like he's putting out about 400 watts at threshold in the last few stages, good for 6.3 w/kg or so.

Calculations put him a lot higher on Etna though, 6.6-6.7w/kg which is pretty big. I don't remember Basso's numbers from a few years ago, but in the late 90s guys were over 7 w/kg.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8839&page=4

Edit: This stuff is all pretty inexact, but the bigger point is that Contador is dominating while putting out a great, but probably not 'extraterrestrial' type performance. I would assume he's doping nonetheless.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

SilasCL said:


> I don't remember Basso's numbers from a few years ago, but in the late 90s guys were over 7 w/kg.


IIRC, back in the heyday of doping the Lance camp even claimed that 7w/kg was what was necessary to win a GT.

Basso, Guitterez (sp?) and few others showed what was possible when some riders were still full-stop with the blood doping and other preparations while others probably had to be more restrained with less effective techniques. Not to mention the guys who dominated the last couple of years with the CERA EPO.

If I had to guess I would bet riders are still microdosing both EPO and now blood transfusions. Still probably taking the various recovery hormones.

Contador has ridden for dirty teams since day 1.


----------



## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Last night there was a discussion on Universal Sports that perhaps they're not chasing as hard because there's the chance he'll have his victory stripped and #2 will get the win. This has been a very odd Giro to say the least.


Pretty doubtful, I think Nibali and Scarponi are putting it all out there with their efforts trying to gain time over everyone else (i.e. yesterday's TT stage), but Contador is just on a whole different level.


----------



## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

OK, I think I'm back in the "ok, I'll just be entertained camp" on this issue.

*Spoiler* for today's stage 17 Giro:



Too bad Contador didn't attack the peloton, bridge to the breakaway and win the sprint, thereby rendering the arguments of legality useless and unnecessary!


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> If we can't catch him now, he's either clean, found the miracle doping drug/routine, or the system is completely broken.
> 
> Last night there was a discussion on Universal Sports that perhaps they're not chasing as hard because there's the chance he'll have his victory stripped and #2 will get the win. This has been a very odd Giro to say the least.


So if he is clean now, and if EPO is really worth 10%, by how much would he win if he WAS DOPING?

Can anyone imagine him winning the 28-minute uphill ITT by 3+ minutes, when Scarponi, Nibali and Rujano are all withing 5 seconds of each other?
Can anyone imagine Contador winning the Giro by 20 minutes? This is what the margin would be if he is clean now, and if he did dope this year.

We DO know he *was* doping last year during TdF and he was decent, very good, but far superhuman. He was at the level of Andy, but not much better - I would argue Andy was better in the mountains but slower in ITT.

This year Contador is SUPERHUMAN - that's right, in all caps. What are we supposed to think?


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

55x11 said:


> So if he is clean now, and if EPO is really worth 10%, by how much would he win if he WAS DOPING?


It's not like doping is all or nothing. In all probability many of the leading riders are still doping but constrained in what they can get out of it by the Biopassport.

I think probably any current rider who can finish in the top 10 in the GC of a GT would probably easily win it if they had a full on doping program like they could do just 3 or 4 years ago.


----------



## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Looks like they may postpone the hearing on AC until Sept.

I do not get this at all. What, so they can strip more GT victories from him? This makes the races a sham, and a disservice to the other racers...


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

I think in the past the only stripping of victories has come from the race the rider was caught doping during, no?


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I think in the past the only stripping of victories has come from the race the rider was caught doping during, no?


That would be my read also. As it stands now, Contador has been found not guilty by his national authority and is a licensed rider in good standing. There are no charges or suspicions surrounding him in his races this season. All that could come out of the CAS hearing is that he was in violation during the Tour last year and so those results would be stripped. If he is found guilty by CAS, the question should be how would the period of suspension be calculated for the time since the Tour. Obviously, the part of this season when he's racing wouldn't count, but would the time he voluntarily withdrew from racing before the outcome of the Spanish hearing be allowed to count against the suspension time?


----------



## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

penn_rider said:


> Looks like they may postpone the hearing on AC until Sept.
> 
> I do not get this at all. What, so they can strip more GT victories from him? This makes the races a sham, and a disservice to the other racers...


All I got from Velonews:



Velonews said:


> "Following the agreement between the Appellants and the Respondents, the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) has accepted to postpone the hearing in this matter in order to give to all parties concerned reasonable time to prepare for such hearing and to guarantee the participation in person of witnesses and experts. Accordingly, the CAS Panel has decided to cancel the hearing initially scheduled for 6-7-8 June 2011. New hearing dates will be fixed as soon as possible."


Where I'm lost is - and sorry if this is a blind statement - why would anyone be short of preparation by June? You'd think the CAS and especially UCI at least would have this near top priority since they're the one's who had the ball in their court (coming from the Spanish Federation's decision), and that the Spanish Federation has a dedicated team working with the case already.


----------



## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

On the one hand, the ASO must be POed over this, since they could have two possible 1st place podiums taken by a doper who was caught. On the other hand they are probably stoked considering the amount attention the race make get (i.e., there's no such thing as bad publicity).


----------



## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

In terms of great performances that went dead the following year, a couple of riders come to mind: Cunego and Sastre.

Another suspect rider is Horner. I really like the guy and I think he's a good clean rider (a la Hamilton back in the day) but he is getting older and yet is beating the younger guys like Andy Schleck on super hard climbs. Reminds me of when Julich came out of 'retirement' and was having an amazing second career with Riis on CSC. Horner's assimilation into the Lance camp has also been a little unnerving especially after last years Tour when he was almost in tears talking about how Lance is so great and how he would do anything for that guy...it was like deja vu on Sunday listening to Tyler say almost the same thing about Lance.


----------



## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Yeah, I've been busy trying not to think about Horner and doping. He's always been a real workhorse and from all accounts, a great guy as well. That, and when he talks to the media he tells it straight. So despite his improving performance with age - I have decided that I prefer the delusion that he is simply a freak of nature.


----------



## ilmaestro (May 3, 2008)

AJL said:


> So despite his improving performance with age - I have decided that I prefer the delusion that he is simply a freak of nature.


The simplest explanation for something is usually the correct one. Freak of nature - not likely.


----------



## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

ilmaestro said:


> The simplest explanation for something is usually the correct one. Freak of nature - not likely.


The last person to ride super strong during the Giro was banned from the Tour...Basso.


----------



## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

ilmaestro said:


> The simplest explanation for something is usually the correct one. Freak of nature - not likely.


If you follow my posts, you'll know where on stand on the whole doping issue. I'm certain that a 40 year old racer isn't improving at this level on bread and water alone. I've just been a fan of Horner for years - I said that I was *intentionally deluding myself* in his case for now.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> It's not like doping is all or nothing. In all probability many of the leading riders are still doping but constrained in what they can get out of it by the Biopassport.
> 
> I think probably any current rider who can finish in the top 10 in the GC of a GT would probably easily win it if they had a full on doping program like they could do just 3 or 4 years ago.


I agree with that. But the OP is implying that the fact that Conti is riding away from the competition means that he is riding CLEAN. Generally it's the other way around. If he is riding clean, the differences would be inconceivable if he were to dope, old-style.


----------



## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

it's just incredible to watch him attack, let of wait for Nibali and then launch again. Today's stage finisher was in similar fashion...holy heck man if he's like this now and "he comes to form" for the Tour...he'll destroy the field.

Seriously the guy doesnt even look like he's trying all that hard and he's just motoring away from the rest of the GC guys.


----------



## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

AJL said:


> Yeah, I've been busy trying not to think about Horner and doping. He's always been a real workhorse and from all accounts, a great guy as well. That, and when he talks to the media he tells it straight. So despite his improving performance with age - I have decided that I prefer the delusion that he is simply a freak of nature.


The problem with improving in cycling is that we know very little of their actual physical performances. We know a lot about their performances compared to other racers, but that information has limited value. If you look at track and field you can see when athletes make big jumps in performance and make a judgement based on that information. Same for sports like baseball, to some degree.

Cycling is a lot different though. Take a guy like Carlos Sastre. He was consistently a second tier GC rider until 2005, when he made the jump to podiums and eventually winning the TdF in 2008. Did he improve his performance dramatically, or did the competition fall back to his level, or was it some mix of the two?

Horner is clearly putting out some great performances, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was doping. But I think there is some evidence that the biopassport is at least making it difficult to dope all out, and maybe Horner's success is due in part to his rival's reduced abilities.


----------



## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

foofighter said:


> it's just incredible to watch him attack, let of wait for Nibali and then launch again. Today's stage finisher was in similar fashion...holy heck man if he's like this now and "he comes to form" for the Tour...he'll destroy the field.
> 
> Seriously the guy doesnt even look like he's trying all that hard and he's just motoring away from the rest of the GC guys.


It is pretty amazing to watch him attack. Is there anyone who has ridden like that in the past? The only time I can think of was when Cunego was toying with Simoni at the Giro a few years ago.


----------



## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

SilasCL said:


> The problem with improving in cycling is that we know very little of their actual physical performances. We know a lot about their performances compared to other racers, but that information has limited value. If you look at track and field you can see when athletes make big jumps in performance and make a judgement based on that information. Same for sports like baseball, to some degree.
> 
> Cycling is a lot different though. Take a guy like Carlos Sastre. He was consistently a second tier GC rider until 2005, when he made the jump to podiums and eventually winning the TdF in 2008. Did he improve his performance dramatically, or did the competition fall back to his level, or was it some mix of the two?
> 
> Horner is clearly putting out some great performances, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was doping. But I think there is some evidence that the biopassport is at least making it difficult to dope all out, and maybe Horner's success is due in part to his rival's reduced abilities.


Carlos Sastre was a damned good domestique for Ivan Basso. In 2008 Riis had no other choice but to unleash Sastre up the Alpe d'Huez because 
a) Frank couldn't TT if his life depended on it
b) Andy had lost a sh!tload of time when he bonked at an earlier stage

If b) hadn't happened, then Andy would've won the tour at the ripe age of 23.


----------



## goloso (Feb 4, 2004)

nismo73 said:


> AC is going up 15% grades like I go down -15% grades...there's something going on here...


Would you make that same statement about Horner and Levi? Their performances are also curious, no?

Before the flames start, I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am merely pointing out that trying to divine doping from great performances is a futile exercise.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

danielc said:


> It is pretty amazing to watch him attack. Is there anyone who has ridden like that in the past? The only time I can think of was when Cunego was toying with Simoni at the Giro a few years ago.


I think you mean Basso, not Cunego?

Contador is dominant but no more so than Lance was in almost all of his Tour wins, and it's not like Lance was doping and the others weren't.

As Silas wisely points out it's all relative in cycling, so it's difficult to infer too much. That being said, the power estimates from the last couple of years are no where near where they were just a few years ago.


----------



## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> He is alleged to have used clenbuterol. Very minor league doping, actually a weight loss aid, it's not a performance enhancer. I know lots of BBers who use it. It does nothing for performance.


:mad2: We can't seem to fix this broken record! Cinelli, please do some research before you make these, not so smart, response. Think about your "weight loss aid" comment. 55x11 post couldn't be anymore clearer if you still don't understand.


----------



## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

goloso said:


> Would you make that same statement about Horner and Levi? Their performances are also curious, no?
> 
> Before the flames start, I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am merely pointing out that trying to divine doping from great performances is a futile exercise.


i just think that levi and chris train to peak around this time because they want the ATOC title and know realistically they would just be cannon fodder for the longer GT later...I'm just giving them the benefit of a doubt. Plus Horner's performance wasnt like that of Contador's i mean he wasnt DOMINATING like conti is...IMO


----------



## goloso (Feb 4, 2004)

foofighter said:


> i just think that levi and chris train to peak around this time because they want the ATOC title and know realistically they would just be cannon fodder for the longer GT later...I'm just giving them the benefit of a doubt. Plus Horner's performance wasnt like that of Contador's i mean he wasnt DOMINATING like conti is...IMO


I hope you are right because I really like both those guys. I've talked to Horner at races a few times and he is a true gentleman. But you still have to put the performances in context. They are on a team with a less than stellar record on doping who finish the big mountain stages 1-2 al la Piepoli & Ricco pounding guys half their age. Their situation not too different from Contidor. So how can you say any of them are doping? 

This is the argument I make to the "let them dope" people. It draws all performances into question and unfairly puts suspicion on the results of clean riders. I really believe that the UCI has the power to reduce doping by enforcing the biological passport and increase testing. Apparently they are more interested in short term gains by protecting popular riders than the long term health of the sport.


----------



## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

Sorry, double post.


----------



## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

Look at the history of AC. He rides for :

Liberty Seguros- Manolo Saiz a known doper
Operacion Puerto- He refused to give DNA to test against bags of blood labeled A.C.
Discovery Channel- Johan Bruyneel a known doper
Astana- Vinokurov a known doper and Bruyneel again
Saxo Bank- Bjarne Riis a known doper

Maybe it is guilt by association but his riding is often "super human". Is he a talented cyclist? Yes, of course. I think that he learned much about pro cycling from his handlers.


----------



## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

ugh, the UCI is yet another topic for another post. So much arrogance for a governing body


----------



## Lazy Spinner (Aug 30, 2009)

I tend to give Horner the benefit of the doubt due to the fact that he is tough as nails, a smart rider, and he does very well in weeklong events. Personally, I think you could suffer through a 7-8 stage event on training and talent. 

Grand Tour dominance requires genetic freakery or pharmceutical help. The way LA or AC do it: dominating nearly all climbs AND winning (or coming very close) two ITTs seems beyond belief.


----------



## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

thought this was appropriate...taken from Twitter

UCI_Overlord Not Pat McQuaid 
Ahem, I now officially decree that Levi and Horner shall be dubbed, "The Chemical Brothers" for the TdF, nickname courtesty of @nicoppy


----------



## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

All GC threats dope. Move on...


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

SilasCL said:


> Seems like he's putting out about 400 watts at threshold in the last few stages, good for 6.3 w/kg or so.
> 
> Calculations put him a lot higher on Etna though, 6.6-6.7w/kg which is pretty big. I don't remember Basso's numbers from a few years ago, but in the late 90s guys were over 7 w/kg.
> 
> ...


 
Great post........puts the whole thing in perspective.

I think we will see more performances like this in future grand tours. It appears that racers will "pick their spots" and the risks they will take re doping in both training and races. 

The other thing that we don't kow is how far ahead of the testing the dopers are......I would suspect that there is still a gap.

Len


----------



## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Though I'm relatively sure that they doped and I do disapprove, I am also sure that with everyone clean and all on level ground, Armstrong and contador's performances would be just as dominant. 

Concerning horner, there is another reason I think his performances have improved; his diet. He was famous for not caring about his diet throughout his career and has suddenly begun eating like a pro bike racer serious about winning. His talent is incredible; one of the most physically gifted riders in the world. If he had have been as disciplined throughout his career as he is being now, he may have been the most dominant rider of his generation with like 10 gt's under his belt by now.


----------



## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

thechriswebb said:


> Though I'm relatively sure that they doped and I do disapprove, I am also sure that with everyone clean and all on level ground, Armstrong and contador's performances would be just as dominant.
> 
> Concerning horner, there is another reason I think his performances have improved; his diet. He was famous for not caring about his diet throughout his career and has suddenly begun eating like a pro bike racer serious about winning. His talent is incredible; one of the most physically gifted riders in the world. If he had have been as disciplined throughout his career as he is being now, he may have been the most dominant rider of his generation with like 10 gt's under his belt by now.


In general, most of the doping techniques in cycling do more to improve consistency than elevate physical abilities. This is why they always say that doping isn't going to turn a mule into a racehorse. Yes, LA and AC are surely more gifted genetically than 99% of the peloton, but chances are that in the course of Armstrong's 7 TdF's and Contador's six straight Grand Tour titles, they probably would've had a few more off days.....assuming that both were on a steady doping regimen.

Regardless of whether he's doping or not, I've been watching Horner race for over 10 years, and his riding hasn't improved to the extent that some people are implying. Horner has always been THAT good, he's just had more opportunities to ride for himself in the big races the last few seasons. Tactically, he has always been one of the saviest racers as well.


----------



## Persephone (Jan 2, 2011)

I agree.... it's more the consistency of a rider that raises red flags for me. The guys who do incredibly well one year and then the next... that's always a little fishy.


----------

