# Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?



## dutchgenius (May 29, 2012)

Last year I raced road on Hed Belgium rims with Conti Grand Prix 4000 S II 700x23 tires, but this was on my old race bike. New Giant Propel will be coming with these wheels:

P-SLR0 AERO (WheelSystems) - Bike Gear | Giant Bicycles | International

I was planning on running Schwalbe One 700x25 tires this year, and was considering tubeless for puncture resistance and to ease my mind with heat build up on carbon clinchers. I have also read that the feel of the tire is closer to tubulars in terms of grip.

I ran tubeless on my cross tires all race season with great results, once I found the right rim/tire combination. These felt much better than the previous season when I was racing cross with tubes. Should I expect the same improvement on road? Any experience with the Schwalbe/Giant combination would be helpful.

Cheers


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

I have no specific experience with those rims, but the only thing that would scare me would be the potential difficulty mounting tires on the carbon rims. Tubeless can be a bear to mount and you certainly would want to avoid levers on carbon.

I see no reason that you would not see the same advantages on the carbon wheels as your cross wheels once you get them mounted.

Tubeless w/sealant may be 50g/wheel heavier.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Plastic levers are ok on carbon rims. If the rims were so weak that you could break them with the tiny little tire levers we use they'd be dangerous to ride. If you're worried you can use the extra wide Park TL5 levers.

Tubeless does not change how carbon clinchers react to brake heat. But carbon clinchers and carbon brake pads are getting better. Unless you're riding down very steep and technical descents, are super heavy or are a terrible descender they'll be fine.


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## 417477 (Aug 23, 2011)

My new propel has those wheels and I'm going to race them tubeless. They popped up with a crappy floor pump. I was able to get my Hutchinson intensives on with just my hands. 

I worked at a giant shop. As far as Giant and schwalbe, the mountain and cross stuff works perfect together. We didn't have much experience on the road side with schwalbe tubeless. I expect they will be fine.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ericm979 said:


> Plastic levers are ok on carbon rims. If the rims were so weak that you could break them with the tiny little tire levers we use they'd be dangerous to ride. If you're worried you can use the extra wide Park TL5 levers.


I'm not so sure about that. There must be a reason many carbon clinchers have such low PSI limits and companies such as Enve recommend not using levers on their rims.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm not so sure about that. There must be a reason many carbon clinchers have such low PSI limits and companies such as Enve recommend not using levers on their rims.


I'm surprised that Enve would say that, because of a few of the manufactures I checked with all said it was ok to use plastic levers but not metal levers on their CF rims, read the Reynolds site for one example. I don't use metal levers on my aluminum rims so I don't see any issue there, I do use the Soma steel core lever on my rims but those are covered in plastic material, but not sure if those are ok for CF, they should be since the metal is not exposed?

And again, going to the Reynolds site for this info, they say you can use any psi recommended by the tire company up to 150 psi on their CF wheels, I haven't found a tire yet that needs more than that. HED has a formula for their wide C2 rims by multiplying the total rider and bike weight by 1.3, thus a 80 kg combined weight would need 104 psi. I don't think a CF rim manufacture would make a rim that you couldn't install a tire and pump it up to the max rated pressure on the sidewall if needed.

Edit, I just found out that you can use plastic levers on Enve CF wheels. The following is straight from their instructions:

NOTE: ENVE does not recommend the use of tire levers to install or remove your tires. However, we understand that there are moments when the use of a tire lever is necessary. When using a tire lever, only use PLASTIC levers, and be careful not to pinch your inner-tube during the install.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm not so sure about that. There must be a reason many carbon clinchers have such low PSI limits


That's because of brake heat raising the pressure. It can add 20-30 psi if one brakes a lot. That combined with the brake heat weakening the side wall of the rim can cause the rim to bulge in a weak spot. That spot then gets more brake heat, causing further bulging until the rider stops or the rim fails.

Also lawyers.




Jay Strongbow said:


> and companies such as Enve recommend not using levers on their rims.


As froze posted Enve says to use them if you need them, just don't use metal levers. The manufacturers of the various carbon clinchers I own dont' say to not use levers. The Reynolds are pretty tight. You'd have to have thumbs of steel to install tires with no levers on them let alone remove them without levers.


If you need metal core levers then you are levering too much tire at a time, which requires more force. Lots of little bites of tire is gentler on the tire and rim than a few big ones. If a tire is tight I'll lever half an inch at a time.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ericm979 said:


> That's because of brake heat raising the pressure. It can add 20-30 psi if one brakes a lot. That combined with the brake heat weakening the side wall of the rim can cause the rim to bulge in a weak spot. That spot then gets more brake heat, causing further bulging until the rider stops or the rim fails.


oh, I hadn't thought of that being the reason.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Here is more about the heat issue: Carbon Clinchers?Are They Ready for Prime Time? | RKP

And: Are carbon fiber clinchers safe? - BikeRadar

I think the really good companies like those mentioned in the above articles are the best CF wheels to get for preventing heat damage, I wouldn't trust a generic CF wheel from China though. Also CF wheels do lead to braking fade when they heat up because the rim unlike AL rims cannot release the heat fast enough. 

The problems with CF rims getting too hot is the actual main reason disk brakes have been introduced, but then that heat on the rotor can actually get far hotter then an AL rim because there is less surface area so the heat has to go somewhere so it goes to the hub where it has been known to fry the grease and cause bearing failure. I guess I would rather have bearing failure than a crash! But then again just use AL rims and not worry about either. 

If you live in an area of mostly flat land the heating of the rim won't even remotely become an issue even if it's 120 degrees outside, these issues came up on fast, steep and long descents on hot days that required a lot of braking. 

However having said that I personally will never ride on CF wheels or use disk brakes...the disk brake thing would only apply to a road bike, on a MTB/CX or maybe a commuter bike I wouldn't have an issue with them except for the cost to maintain them is substantially higher than rim brakes but at least on MTB/CX bikes due to a lot of dirt, mud, water, etc they would be better than rim brakes, and riding off road like that you won't see the speed that could make a rotor red hot.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

dutchgenius said:


> I was planning on running Schwalbe One 700x25 tires this year, and was considering tubeless for puncture resistance and to ease my mind with heat build up on carbon clinchers. I have also read that the feel of the tire is closer to tubulars in terms of grip.


My whole family rides on tubeless tubulars from Tufo. Try it.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> My whole family rides on tubeless tubulars from Tufo. Try it.


For god's sake just stop w/ the Tufo stuff. It requires tubular wheels which the OP does not have. We all know you use the worst riding tubulars in history and force them on the rest of your family. The OP _specifically asked about Giant rims and Schwalbe tires_...at this point we can be pretty sure he's not interested in buying another set of wheels just so he can glue those sh*t tires on them.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> For god's sake just stop w/ the Tufo stuff. It requires tubular wheels which the OP does not have. We all know you use the worst riding tubulars in history and force them on the rest of your family. The OP _specifically asked about Giant rims and Schwalbe tires_...at this point we can be pretty sure he's not interested in buying another set of wheels just so he can glue those sh*t tires on them.


Another set of wheels costs $800.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> Another set of wheels costs $800.


Your point being? Stick to the topic, please.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> Your point being? Stick to the topic, please.


Replacing the whole wheel+tire combination costs less than half of most high end tubeless clincher set of wheels.

Tubeless clincher is going down the wrong path.

Tubeless tubular is the right way to go.

I ride it every day. 29mph briefly on every ride.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

myhui said:


> Replacing the whole wheel+tire combination costs less than half of most high end tubeless clincher set of wheels.
> 
> Tubeless clincher is going down the wrong path.
> 
> ...


He already has tubeless ready wheels...

Another set of wheels does not need to cost $800 either.

OP, schwalbe One tires get very good reviews.

I'll offer up maxxis padrone as another option. The only negatives I see on it is that it's expensive as heck. Not sure what the schwalbe costs.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Double post


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> Replacing the whole wheel+tire combination costs less than half of most high end tubeless clincher set of wheels.
> 
> Tubeless clincher is going down the wrong path.
> 
> ...


Wheel prices are all over the map. Stick to the point.

Tubeless clinchers work great, I ride them every day. Stick to the point.

Tubeless tubulars are great for you, not for everyone. Stick to the point.

Who gives a rat's ass what you do briefly every day? Stick to the point.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

What I do every day validates what I'm recommending.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> What I do every day validates what I'm recommending.


I ride twice everyday and hit 29.1 briefly on every ride and I think you are either one of the better internet trolls out there or need to have your house and car checked for a gas leak because you're clearly getting some heavy fumes.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I ride twice everyday and hit 29.1 briefly on every ride and I think you are either one of the better internet trolls out there or need to have your house and car checked for a gas leak because you're clearly getting some heavy fumes.


What's your point then?


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

myhui said:


> My whole family rides on tubeless tubulars from Tufo. Try it.



Have you started any threads on these. I will search to see, if not please do. I would like to hear more. I will also google, assuming in the context the Tubular Clinchers is not what got referenced.

I would attempt to ask in this thread, but fear being ostracized along with you for your sins.

What is the mater with you? Thread drifting is a capitol offense you know.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little fascism with my coffee as much as the next guy.


------
Is he referring to the Tubular Clinchers Tufo makes is what I would ask if I was not in fear.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I refer to tubeless tubulars.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

myhui said:


> My whole family rides on tubeless tubulars from Tufo. Try it.





myhui said:


> Another set of wheels costs $800.





myhui said:


> Replacing the whole wheel+tire combination costs less than half of most high end tubeless clincher set of wheels.
> 
> I ride it every day. 29mph briefly on every ride.





myhui said:


> What I do every day validates what I'm recommending.


Stop trolling. None of this is relevant to the OP's questions. Go start a new thread on the amazing Tufo's.

Who gives a rats @ss if you briefly hit 29mph? That is utterly useless info. Your tires should be able to routinely handle 50mph or more.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

tlg said:


> Stop trolling. None of this is relevant to the OP's questions.


I'm doing a product placement. Seen any movies lately?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I wouldn't worry that much re heat buildup. For one, with the wider rims you can run them at lower pressure (like 100 psi). Also, new brake pad formulations are better now - just don't use yellow Swisstop pads and don't use latex tubes. I melted 2 earlier version of Reynolds wheels, but have been riding their newer (2014) models with no issues, including some fast runs down about as technical a descent as they come. 

Re the Tufo comments from others - I used to train on tubulars and got talked into trying a tufo tire (forget the specific model but one of their high end ones). After one ride, I threw it away. Felt like a garden hose on the rim. Worst tire I've ever experienced.





dutchgenius said:


> Last year I raced road on Hed Belgium rims with Conti Grand Prix 4000 S II 700x23 tires, but this was on my old race bike. New Giant Propel will be coming with these wheels:
> 
> P-SLR0 AERO (WheelSystems) - Bike Gear | Giant Bicycles | International
> 
> ...


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

stevesbike said:


> Re the Tufo comments from others - I used to train on tubulars and got talked into trying a tufo tire (forget the specific model but one of their high end ones). After one ride, I threw it away. Felt like a garden hose on the rim. Worst tire I've ever experienced.


I go around corners the same speed as everyone else in the pack during a race. I haven't noticed any problems at all. Maybe that's because I mount them myself at home.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

myhui said:


> I go around corners the same speed as everyone else in the pack during a race. I haven't noticed any problems at all. Maybe that's because I mount them myself at home.


I really hope we never end up in the same race.

@OP - I'd ask giant what they think about the heating issue while running tubeless. My theory being that there is less material (i.e. no tube) to absorb heat so more will go into heating the air causing a higher spike in the PSI. 

I bought one of Ritchey's new Zeta IIs that is a tubeless compatible rim with a sealed rim bed (no spoke holes in the rim bed). I am not running it tubeless but I found it curious that it came with a rim strip. I contacted Ritchey about it and they said it's for better heat management on long descents.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

dutchgenius said:


> Last year I raced road on Hed Belgium rims with Conti Grand Prix 4000 S II 700x23 tires, but this was on my old race bike. New Giant Propel will be coming with these wheels:
> 
> P-SLR0 AERO (WheelSystems) - Bike Gear | Giant Bicycles | International
> 
> ...


I don't have experience with that particular set up but I did race tubeless several years back and really liked it. Being able to run lower pressures meant more comfort and it seemed more grip. 

I liked the setup as much if not more than my carbon/tubular wheels. I went away from it because I sold the tubeless wheels. Now Im back on a tubeless set up but not racing and still enjoy it.

The downside I see is the mess you get to deal with if you flat.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

myhui said:


> I go around corners the same speed as everyone else in the pack during a race. I haven't noticed any problems at all. Maybe that's because I mount them myself at home.


I mount my tubulars as well - maybe I think they're crap because I've ridden good tubulars and Tufo's have the highest rolling resistance of all tubular manufacturers...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

robt57 said:


> Have you started any threads on these. I will search to see, if not please do. I would like to hear more. I will also google, assuming in the context the Tubular Clinchers is not what got referenced.
> 
> I would attempt to ask in this thread, but fear being ostracized along with you for your sins.
> 
> ...


No, he's referring to Tufo tubulars. They don't have an inner tube in the casing of the tire, the inside of the casing is butyl coated so it will hold air. No inner tube that can pinch flat. This is why they work well w/ sealant. 

But...

They are the absolute worst riding tubulars made. Ever. Also probably the most slippery tread compound ever put on any tire. Ever. I have some experience w/ them, anyone that has 'extensive' experience is mentally challenged for using them that long. They are absolutely terrible.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

They are wonderful tires.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> They are wonderful tires.


It is a free country.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> It is a free country.


But no one wants to race with me!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> But no one wants to race with me!


And this is a surprise to you because...?


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> And this is a surprise to you because...?


Because I don't crash when I ride on Tufo tires.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> Because I don't crash when I ride on Tufo tires.


"Yet"...


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

myhui said:


> I ride it every day. 29mph briefly on every ride.


If tufo tubulars are only good up to 29 mph, then they aren't worth riding. Thank you for saving me from ever trying them.

OP, I used the predecessor to the schwalbe one, though not on a giant rim. Ultremo ZX tubeless I think it was called. I think the one replaced it and is very similar, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, I had no problems, rode pretty nice.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I once tried a Tufo tubular clincher thinking hey what a great idea...was I ever wrong. They don't save any weight over a clincher, they felt nothing like a tubular, they didn't last long at all, cost a lot, didn't handle well and worse when wet, rode hard, you can't fold one up small enough even with all the air squeeze out to put a spare in your seat bag, which is odd because I can put a clincher tube and a ultralight racing clincher tire all in my seat bag and have room left for my tools.

Pros are at least they didn't require glue to mount and it did stay on the rim when one flated but so what? I've had clinchers do that, and when it did flat the first time the sealant didn't work as advertised and just sprayed out of small hole all over the ground; You can also run them at different pressures for different uses, like around the 170 psi range if racing and around the 120 psi for training, and less for rain or just wanting a comfy ride which never seemed to be quite right.

But overall the cost to have them was crazy high since they wore out at 1,500 mile range, and the flat protection was only so so, and for the price you got around a 325 gram tire when I can get a clincher that weighs 210 plus a 70 gram tube plus 4 grams for rim tape (with Tufos you don't need rim tape) and all of that weighs less then the Tufo.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

froze said:


> I once tried a Tufo tubular clincher thinking hey what a great idea...was I ever wrong. They don't save any weight over a clincher, they felt nothing like a tubular, they didn't last long at all, cost a lot, didn't handle well and worse when wet, rode hard, you can't fold one up small enough even with all the air squeeze out to put a spare in your seat bag, which is odd because I can put a clincher tube and a ultralight racing clincher tire all in my seat bag and have room left for my tools.
> 
> Pros are at least they didn't require glue to mount and it did stay on the rim when one flated but so what? I've had clinchers do that, and when it did flat the first time the sealant didn't work as advertised and just sprayed out of small hole all over the ground; You can also run them at different pressures for different uses, like around the 170 psi range if racing and around the 120 psi for training, and less for rain or just wanting a comfy ride which never seemed to be quite right.
> 
> But overall the cost to have them was crazy high since they wore out at 1,500 mile range, and the flat protection was only so so, and for the price you got around a 325 gram tire when I can get a clincher that weighs 210 plus a 70 gram tube plus 4 grams for rim tape (with Tufos you don't need rim tape) and all of that weighs less then the Tufo.


You pretty much nailed it right there. And there. And there.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

My Tufo S3 Lite is 215 grams.

http://www.tufo.com/s3-lite-215g/


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> No, he's referring to Tufo tubulars. They don't have an inner tube in the casing of the tire, the inside of the casing is butyl coated so it will hold air. No inner tube that can pinch flat. This is why they work well w/ sealant.
> 
> But...
> 
> They are the absolute worst riding tubulars made.


Thanks for the follow up...


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

myhui said:


> My Tufo S3 Lite is 215 grams.


Look, those tires have been around for a long time and have a universal reputation as being the worst of both worlds. The only amazing thing about them is that they are still on the market. Apparently there are just enough people like you to keep them in business.

Does it have any significance to you that every other person reading this thread who has ridden them thinks they're crap? Or is it that you are just so far ahead of everyone that you can ignore them? We have plenty of evidence from your other posts that you suffer from some kind of reality disconnect syndrome. Prattling on about how great Tufos are only serves to confirm that.


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## CliveDS (Oct 7, 2009)

"Back to the topic" 

Tufo don't make a TL clincher so lets talk about the Giant wheels and the Schwalbe 

I would go this route for sure, it's a good step up from a standard clincher and the TL setup feels great, is better in rain (lower PSI) more puncture resistant and I expect over the course of a race season you will make at least one and maybe more wheel changes less. 

All in on the TL clincher been using it since 2009, tried them all and the 25mm Schwalbe is king right now.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Kerry Irons said:


> Does it have any significance to you that every other person reading this thread who has ridden them thinks they're crap?


No, not at all.

I know how to ride. Maybe they don't know how to ride.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> I know how to ride. Maybe they don't know how to ride.


 You obviously have no clue and just like pissing people off w/ ridiculous posts that run counter to whatever the experienced users knows to be true. You've got what...a year of experience? Give me a break and just find some other forum to bother. I'm sure you quite enjoy reading all these posts by people that are sick of your stupidity, but all it does is clutter up the forum. I truly hope that no one ever follows any of your advice thinking you know what you're talking about and gets hurt.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> You obviously have no clue


I have data.

You don't.

I ride Tufo every day. It grips like mad.

You don't ride Tufo at all.

See the difference?

I show you the light. Follow it.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Tufo is the disrupter: glue tape and no inner tube means tires are as easy to change at home by the common cyclist as clinchers with disposable inner tubes are.


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## 417477 (Aug 23, 2011)

stevesbike said:


> I wouldn't worry that much re heat buildup. For one, with the wider rims you can run them at lower pressure (like 100 psi). Also, new brake pad formulations are better now - just don't use yellow Swisstop pads and don't use latex tubes. I melted 2 earlier version of Reynolds wheels, but have been riding their newer (2014) models with no issues, including some fast runs down about as technical a descent as they come.
> 
> 100 psi is a good starting point. I run around 90 psi with intensives. I tried some secture 28s and was running between 50-60 psi. I'm at 180lbs also. Tubeless tires have a stiffer casing but, it takes a little convincing at first to stop and let more air out. I know I was afraid at first. I have the same wheels as the op so, I may be a touch more conservative.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I have data.
> 
> You don't.
> 
> ...


Wrong. I have ridden Tufo garbage...years ago. And moved past it to actual quality product. I'll once again bring the pro race thing into the argument. Have you EVER seen a pro tour level team race on Tufo road tires? No...you haven't. There are good reasons for this fact. Every single person on this forum that has replied to threads regarding Tufo hates them, excepting you. Every. Single. Person. You really have attained super troll status when you say we're all wrong and you're right. 



myhui said:


> Tufo is the disrupter: glue tape and no inner tube means tires are as easy to change at home by the common cyclist as clinchers with disposable inner tubes are.


All it really means is that the tape is not an adequate method of attaching the tire to rim in the first place. Again, no pro level team uses Tufo tape for anything other than wrapping Christmas presents. 

I know this sh*t will never end...you'll continue arguing and trolling...I'll continue telling the forum the correct methods to use. It's a good thing I'm so much more relaxed now in my old(er) age than when I was young...you're incredibly frustrating on all levels. I'm sure you're doing this because it's some kind of twisted fun for you to have an entire forum refute pretty much everything you post.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> Wrong. I have ridden Tufo garbage...years ago.


I have ridden Tufo tires just now.

Donate a Tire | Bicycle Rolling Resistance



> This is for readers who would like to make a small contribution towards a tire to be reviewed. I will start taking requests again and the most requested tires will end up on this page. Please use the Donations and Requests forum to post requests. If a particular tire is popular enough, I will add it to this page. *To get these donations rolling, I will double all donations made before 31/01/2015*.
> 
> This system uses PayPal/CreditCard to make the donations. This is the most secure way to make this happen but keep in mind that a transaction cost is withheld by PayPal, this transaction cost is € 0,35 + 3.2 %. example: If you donate € 2,50 only € 2,07 goes towards the tire review.
> 
> This system is transparant because when you donate, you will see the donated amount increase by the amount (minus transaction costs) you donated. Keep in mind that I have to update this manually, I try to do this as fast as possible.


If enough people request it, and donate at the same time, the above outfit can test a Tufo tubular tire for rolling resistance, since there was a claim made earlier that Tufo tires have the highest rolling resistance. It won't address your claim of Tufo tires having lowest grip. We'll get to a test to check that in due time.

Just reply to the thread I started here: Tufo S3 Lite - Donations and Requests - Bicycle Rolling Resistance Forum


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## 195cranky (Jun 25, 2013)

To maybe try to help OP. I raced yesterday on Schwalbe One tubeless in the rain. I'm 200 pounds. Usually run 90 front 95 rear. Ran 85 front, 90 rear in the wet races. Had great grip with no issues. Besides racing, also train on this tubeless set and other tubeless wheelsets. Will be switching over all of them to Schwalbe One tubeless when the other current clincher tubeless tires wear out.

Tubeless clinchers for racing sure take a lot of worry and possible hassles out of the equation. Run with confidence and happy with set up. Schwalbe One tubeless seems to work well so far. Have previously run Maxxis Padrone, Bontrager R2 garbage, Specialized Turbo tubeless made by Hutchi but lasted longer than Hutchinson tubeless garbage with much better grip. Schwalbe Ones are top on my tubeless clincher list for now. YMMV.

Highly recommend tubeless clinchers with good tubeless ready rims. Hope this helps. Good luck and fast racing.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

myhui said:


> I have ridden Tufo tires just now.
> 
> Donate a Tire | Bicycle Rolling Resistance
> 
> ...


Well, that went over like a lead balloon.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tihsepa said:


> Well, that went over like a lead balloon.


Maybe if we ignore everything he posts, he'll go elsewhere to annoy people.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> Maybe if we ignore everything he posts, he'll go elsewhere to annoy people.


I'm only annoying you.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Maybe if we ignore everything he posts, he'll go elsewhere to annoy people.


Just think of the plethora of undisputed crap advice that would get spewed on unsuspecting newbies.



myhui said:


> I'm only annoying you.


No, you're annoying everyone. It's a common theme that follows you.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_QFWLiUDE

I think I found myhui's guide on how to glue tubulars.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

myhui said:


> I'm only annoying you.


No your generally annoying


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

32and3cross said:


> No your generally annoying


I doubt it.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> I'm only annoying you.


I agree you aren't annoying everyone. There's probably a good percentage who think you are, um, special, and pity you rather than get annoyed. The remainders are annoyed. Personally I'm still not clear if you're a troll or just kind of, shall we say, different.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I agree you aren't annoying everyone. There's probably a good percentage who think you are, um, special, and pity you rather than get annoyed. The remainders are annoyed. Personally I'm still not clear if you're a troll or just kind of, shall we say, different.


I tell the truth.

I go round the sharp bend in mid pack at 24mph while everyone surrounding me does the same. I'm far from slipping. They're far from slipping. We do this over and over again, showing down to 20mph towards the end of the criterium.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

myhui said:


> We do this over and over again, showing down to 20mph towards the end of the criterium.


Because as all experienced crit racers will tell you, the last 3 laps are definitely the slowest ones in the whole race.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

deviousalex said:


> Because as all experienced crit racers will tell you, the last 3 laps are definitely the slowest ones in the whole race.


The faster ones have left the pack behind by then.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

What kind of rims are you using?



195cranky said:


> To maybe try to help OP. I raced yesterday on Schwalbe One tubeless in the rain. I'm 200 pounds. Usually run 90 front 95 rear. Ran 85 front, 90 rear in the wet races. Had great grip with no issues. Besides racing, also train on this tubeless set and other tubeless wheelsets. Will be switching over all of them to Schwalbe One tubeless when the other current clincher tubeless tires wear out.
> 
> Tubeless clinchers for racing sure take a lot of worry and possible hassles out of the equation. Run with confidence and happy with set up. Schwalbe One tubeless seems to work well so far. Have previously run Maxxis Padrone, Bontrager R2 garbage, Specialized Turbo tubeless made by Hutchi but lasted longer than Hutchinson tubeless garbage with much better grip. Schwalbe Ones are top on my tubeless clincher list for now. YMMV.
> 
> Highly recommend tubeless clinchers with good tubeless ready rims. Hope this helps. Good luck and fast racing.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

cxwrench said:


> Maybe if we ignore everything he posts, he'll go elsewhere to annoy people.


No, he can stay here. If he goes somewhere else he may end up where I have gone. That's the last thing I need.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

tihsepa said:


> If he goes somewhere else he may end up where I have gone. That's the last thing I need.


No, I won't go to where you have gone. That's the last thing I need.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

myhui said:


> No, I won't go to where you have gone. That's the last thing I need.


Thank Jeebus. I would rather spend an afternoon watching Gerry Hull exercise videos than 10 minutes talking to your wacko self. 
Have a nice day.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I'm only annoying you.





myhui said:


> I doubt it.





myhui said:


> No, I won't go to where you have gone. That's the last thing I need.


If there were any moderation on this forum maybe they'd give him a vacation, because at this point he's just antagonizing people.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> If there were any moderation on this forum maybe they'd give him a vacation, because at this point he's just antagonizing people.


Aren't you antagonizing me too?


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Just a note on schwalbe One. My experience is limited to their tubular One but I'm assuming the tread compound is the same. 

In short, after 450 miles the rear tire was completely worn out and flatted even though it had Stan's in it. It was the first tubular flat I had in more than 15000 miles on tubulars (Vittoria Pave's except for this One indiscretion). In fairness, I live in the foothills near the Cascades and most of that 450 miles was either climbing or descending. The front tire still looked OK but I couldn't take the chance. 

My new bike came with Enve disc 4.2 clinchers so I too am looking at going back to tubeless. I had equally good luck when I was using Fusion 2's and find the 4.2's to be a pain when inflating a tubed tire after a flat on the road with co2 as I can't seem to keep them from popping off the rim (my co2 inflator is the type you can control). Part of it may be the Enve clincher ridge design and part of it may be the small amount of stretch that occurs in a tire bead with a couple thousand miles on it.

There is little question in my mind that both tubular and tubeless are far more dependable and less of a hassle than the antiquated tube system that was mostly abandoned in automobiles years ago.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

cxwrench,
Do you know if Hutchinson has got their act together on the Fusion 3's yet? I used the fusion 2's with great success for several years before going tubular. I'm interested in using their 25mm tires on a set enve of 4.2 clincher rims that came with my bike.


cxwrench said:


> Maybe if we ignore everything he posts, he'll go elsewhere to annoy people.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

SwiftSolo said:


> There is little question in my mind that both tubular and tubeless are far more dependable and less of a hassle than the antiquated tube system that was mostly abandoned in automobiles years ago.


But I think your tubulars have inner tubes inside.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> There is little question in my mind that both tubular and tubeless are far more dependable and less of a hassle than the antiquated tube system that was mostly abandoned in automobiles years ago.





myhui said:


> But I think your tubulars have inner tubes inside.



The big difference between tubeless in automotive and bicycle is created by the presence of spoked wheels on bikes.

For automobiles the challenges of tubeless were materials (butyl rubber) that provided the needed air retention and a design so that the tire bead would seal on the rim flange. Those issues were solved decades ago.

In bikes the materials issue has long been solved, borrowing from the auto world. The challenge of sealing up the all spoke holes remained. It is only with the advent of practical sealants that tubeless tires on spoked wheel have become a viable option

The issue I see with tubeless tubular tires on bikes is reparability. While that may not be an issue for racing, the general lack of reparability of tubeless tubular tires leads to the need for them to be dirt cheap. That is generally equated with lackluster performance characteristics.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

ibericb said:


> The issue I see with tubeless tubular tires on bikes is reparability.


Patch-n-Ride comes in a tubeless version that they claim will work for both tubeless tubular and tubeless clincher tires. I ordered two of the tubeless version. I still have not received my shipment yet.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

myhui said:


> Patch-n-Ride comes in a tubeless version that they claim will work for both tubeless tubular and tubeless clincher tires. I ordered two of the tubeless version. I still have not received my shipment yet.



Never heard of it. Went and looked - haven't started shipping yet. If you're lucky, you'll get it. My guess is that it is similar to the old fashioned tire plugs used on auto tires. Good luck!. 

As I noted, tubeless tubular is basically not repairable today, which leads to cheap design and construction as they are considered throw-aways. If you feel you can be competitive on them, knock yourself out.

edit added - cost ~ $15/patch? For what has to be a cheap tire? Enjoy yourself.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm not at all a weight weenie, but tubeless tubular tires are indeed the lightest tires out there.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> My new bike came with Enve disc 4.2 clinchers so I too am looking at going back to tubeless. I had equally good luck when I was using Fusion 2's and find the 4.2's to be a pain when inflating a tubed tire after a flat on the road with co2 as I can't seem to keep them from popping off the rim (my co2 inflator is the type you can control). Part of it may be the Enve clincher ridge design and part of it may be the small amount of stretch that occurs in a tire bead with a couple thousand miles on it.


I've been told Schwalbe tires and ENVE rims don't work well and heard of this happening.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I'm only annoying you.





myhui said:


> I doubt it.





myhui said:


> No, I won't go to where you have gone. That's the last thing I need.





SwiftSolo said:


> cxwrench,
> Do you know if Hutchinson has got their act together on the Fusion 3's yet? I used the fusion 2's with great success for several years before going tubular. I'm interested in using their 25mm tires on a set enve of 4.2 clincher rims that came with my bike.


Hey Swift, No...I haven't really looked lately as we don't carry them anymore. QBP does have them in stock, they show an msrp of $105.00. Haven't heard any feedback at all about them though.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

myhui said:


> I'm not at all a weight weenie, but tubeless tubular tires are indeed the lightest tires out there.


Wrong again.

Vittoria Crono CS II Time Trial Tubular Tire | TotalCycling.com


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Guaranteed less than 160 grams:

http://www.tufo.com/elite-jet-160g-1/


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

myhui said:


> I'm only annoying you.


No. You're annoying me too and I'm just reading this thread.

Send me a set of Tufos and I'll test them - I've been riding tubs since 1980. 

FYI Panaracer makes some 175g tubulars too. But normally the width gets smaller to reduce weight versus a lighter casing or something at that point. Except the Vittoria one is 22mm, Tufo is 21mm, Panaracer is 20mm

I'd rather ride the Vittoria.

At one time I did a TT with a Rapide 18mm front tire on a 19mm rim. I couldn't see the tire looking down. It also lowered the front end of my bike a bit too from it's smallness.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

CrankyCarbon said:


> FYI Panaracer makes some 175g tubulars too.


My daughter rides on Panaracer. We even have the sewing kit.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

With a lot of miles on all three types (tubular, tubeless, and regular clinchers) I can tell you that I've worn out many of each type in 40 plus years of riding. I have yet to throw away either a tubeless or a tubular (road) that wasn't worn out. Both offered a wear rate similar to regular clinchers (schwalbe One is the exception) and a failure rate of less than 25% of regular clinchers. I've nearly always used stans in both my tubulars and my tubeless, but not my regular clinchers with tubes.


ibericb said:


> Never heard of it. Went and looked - haven't started shipping yet. If you're lucky, you'll get it. My guess is that it is similar to the old fashioned tire plugs used on auto tires. Good luck!.
> 
> As I noted, tubeless tubular is basically not repairable today, which leads to cheap design and construction as they are considered throw-aways. If you feel you can be competitive on them, knock yourself out.
> 
> edit added - cost ~ $15/patch? For what has to be a cheap tire? Enjoy yourself.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

First off, highly enjoyable thread. Such fire and passion. All we need are some beautiful ladies (I apologize for assuming here) and we have ourselves a first-rate soap opera. Call Neilson Rating Services.

As for the below statement, I am not following. What does the advent of sealant have to do with spoke holes being airtight? I'm new to the tubeless game, building my 1st set of wheels currently and everything I've read seems to indicate sealant could be optional depending on how well your rim/tire bead fit is. Not so good, sealant will help fill the micro spaces and make an airtight connection. Good fit and your tire will likely hold air just fine without it. Doesn't the tubeless tape or rim strip seal off the spokeholes from being a factor?

Now is running a tire without sealant advisable for puncture protection (now that pinch flats are all but history)? Probably not.

Just wanted to make sure I am understanding the physics and principles correctly.



ibericb said:


> In bikes the materials issue has long been solved, borrowing from the auto world. The challenge of sealing up the all spoke holes remained. It is only with the advent of practical sealants that tubeless tires on spoked wheel have become a viable option


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

krisdrum said:


> ...
> As for the below statement, I am not following. What does the advent of sealant have to do with spoke holes being airtight? I'm new to the tubeless game, building my 1st set of wheels currently and everything I've read seems to indicate sealant could be optional depending on how well your rim/tire bead fit is. Not so good, sealant will help fill the micro spaces and make an airtight connection. Good fit and your tire will likely hold air just fine without it. Doesn't the tubeless tape or rim strip seal off the spokeholes from being a factor?
> 
> Now is running a tire without sealant advisable for puncture protection (now that pinch flats are all but history)? Probably not. ...


The practical issue was getting tubeless to work on all the existing rims, made with conventional spoke designs, as opposed to a new generation of specialty tubeless rims (which do exist).

You're right about the tape, at least in theory. But in reality it's not as simple as just tape and go. The sealant is the safeguard to seal up any leaking spots that the tape and valve seals don't seal completely. If the tape, it's application, the valve, and the bead/rim were all perfect, then sealant would only be an option for puncture protection. For most conversion cases I doubt everything is that perfect. 

Rims designed for tubeless are a different mater, just like auto rims.


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## 195cranky (Jun 25, 2013)

To answer dcb's question:

I use Flo 30 rims with 2 layers of Stan's Tape. Speed Evolution tubeless valve stems and Orange Seal. Schwalbe One tubeless go on no problem with one wide plastic tire wrench to pop over the last bead. I make sure to use some soapy Dawn to moisten the sidewalls prior to install and often just a floor pump with some quick strokes will get tire to bead. If not, a quick short shot off a Co2 cartridge does the trick and can do a pair if needed with one cartridge to bead tires. 

Some rims/tires seal up well and hold air without the need for Orange Seal but that I think is pure luck. 2 ounces of Orange Seal per wheel do a great job to seal up any minute leaks and plenty left over for puncture protection. Seems to last a couple months but just depends how often you ride and how dry your climate is.

Find it is a good idea when replacing tires to remove all remnants of Orange Seal boogers and start over with very clean rim surface and fresh sealant with any new tire. 

Hope this helps and hope no one was annoyed including any annoying ones.


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

I haven't used those wheels but I agree with others on the Schwalbe One tubeless. Great tire (regular clincher version as well). I use mine on Stans Alpha 340 wheels. I mounted them by hand with no levers or soapy water, and they seated with my Topeak pump. 

Heat on rims is not an issue unless you're descending down the Rockies or the like.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

One important matter is left out of the discussion. With stans, most punctures heal themselves by simply continuing to ride. The point is that it is not just to seal the rim to tires contact nor the tape to spoke hole penetrations. 

You'll find that when a puncture occurs the white vapor will begin spewing for a few revolutions before the hole heals. I have put more than 1000 miles on fusion 2's after having a significant puncture.


krisdrum said:


> First off, highly enjoyable thread. Such fire and passion. All we need are some beautiful ladies (I apologize for assuming here) and we have ourselves a first-rate soap opera. Call Neilson Rating Services.
> 
> As for the below statement, I am not following. What does the advent of sealant have to do with spoke holes being airtight? I'm new to the tubeless game, building my 1st set of wheels currently and everything I've read seems to indicate sealant could be optional depending on how well your rim/tire bead fit is. Not so good, sealant will help fill the micro spaces and make an airtight connection. Good fit and your tire will likely hold air just fine without it. Doesn't the tubeless tape or rim strip seal off the spokeholes from being a factor?
> 
> ...


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks, but I willfully skirted the puncture issue, focusing on the relationship between sealant and airtightness, which is where I was not fully following ibericd's comment. Second to last paragraph of my post clearly speaks to the puncture properties of sealant. 


SwiftSolo said:


> One important matter is left out of the discussion. With stans, most punctures heal themselves by simply continuing to ride. The point is that it is not just to seal the rim to tires contact nor the tape to spoke hole penetrations.
> 
> You'll find that when a puncture occurs the white vapor will begin spewing for a few revolutions before the hole heals. I have put more than 1000 miles on fusion 2's after having a significant puncture.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

This very recent thread may illustrate the kind of challenge that many have faced with converting from tube to tubeless. Post #7 is very insightful.


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