# Greetings & Guidance



## OdysseyOnWheels (Apr 21, 2008)

Hello to all.  

So, I am planning to do a cross country. I want panniers on the back and towing a trailer. I want disc brakes, and I want fenders. I want a bike that will allow me to put some smaller tires for when I'll chewing up miles on the road, but I also want something where I can change tires and put on something beefier for some dirt trails/roads (nothing extreme) in state and national parks.

So, I guess that this has me looking at some kind of cyclocross or beefy touring bike. My brief search so far has me considering the Surly Long Haul Trucker, the Surly Crosscheck, and maybe the Salsa La Cruz.

So, if anyone could give me some guidance based on that and the following questions, I would appreciate it.


Are the 3 bikes I've listed the right ones to start with?

What others should I consider?

Will the Surlys take disc brakes?

Will the Salsa accomodate a rack and panniers?

Thanks and cheers.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

I think the Cross Check would be the ideal 'round the world bike. For in the USA, you don't really _need_ the wide tires the Cross Check has the ability to take. It will not take disc brakes, and nor will the LHT as far as I know. Do you really think you have to have disc brakes? If you are serious about the cross country trip, you will be logging some serious mileage and time on the bike. You might want to look at custom. 

I have been doing some planning for a 'round the country trip. I want to take a year to do it, and hope to start it in about two years. Keep us updated.


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## OdysseyOnWheels (Apr 21, 2008)

SleeveleSS said:


> Do you really think you have to have disc brakes?


I think that I will probably end up carrying a lot of gear, and I would like to be sure that I could have ample stopping power coming down an "attention-getting" grade in wet weather.



SleeveleSS said:


> You might want to look at custom.


What company would I look to for something custom? Sounds expensive... :eek6:


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

A properly set up rim brake system, along with keeping your speed down, should serve you fine. I run disc brakes on my mountain bike, and they are nice, but to run road shifters you must use mechanical discs. Hydraulic discs are nicer in my opinion. Lighter, more powerful, and less pad rub issues.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*OMG that is a lot of stuff.*



OdysseyOnWheels said:


> ... I want panniers on the back and towing a trailer. ....


#1 I'm thinking a BOB trailer (that will easily hold 70lbs) should be able to haul everything but the kitchen sink. If you load up panniers PLUS a BOB I don't see how you will ever make it up any kind of climb. Plus the 2 systems together are going to give you the drawbacks of each. I'd say go for one or the other (I will always choose a BOB first) but not both.

#2 Any frame that will accept wide tires will always be able to handle all the skinner sizes.

#3 With all your "wants" I too think custom might well be the way to go.

Have you ever toured with a load? Seems like you are listing a "Dream" list that hasn't butted up against the reality of what happens when someone spends long days on the road with a camping load.

I would suggest that you look at a real touring bike (I like the Trek or Sruly LHT for the value or Bruce Gordons if you are hard-core) to make your hardest riding as easy as it can be and if you want a faster bike for unloaded riding get a second bike. To deal with the load you are thinking about with a trailer and panniers pretty much demands that you get a full on touring bike.

Except descending Haleakala (10,000' in 28 miles  ) I have never really felt the need for disc brakes on the road.......


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

Couple thoughts on disc brakes.

Discs are more expensive, harder to service and harder to get spare parts for than rim brakes.

They stop great, but I've never needed that kind of stopping power on the road, and I'm a pretty big guy. When you're running skinny little tires ( and compared to a 2.3" knobby, even a 32 is skinny), you've got a contact patch with the road that's only about the size of a quarter. Really powerful brakes can overpower that little contact patch and send you into a skid. Skids suck. When you're on sketchy surfaces like gravel or dirt or pea gravel, this problem is much worse. 

You have to really screw up to break a cantilever brake. Whang a rim out of shape too bad, you can always just loosen up your brakes and ride on.

Discs squeak. Never found one that didn't. for an hour or 2 off road, this isn't too bad. For 7 hours on the road, I can imagine it would be maddening. 

Here's one thought on brakes for heavy bikes...
http://www.rodcycle.com/articles/brakes.html


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

I would also look at the Soma Double-Cross. It's lighter than the Surly and, to me, much more comfortable. Don't think it can do disk brakes but it can handle everything else you want to do.




MB1 said:


> Except descending Haleakala (10,000' in 28 miles  ) I have never really felt the need for disc brakes on the road.......


How the hell did you get UP that mountain? Airlift?


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## OdysseyOnWheels (Apr 21, 2008)

I suppose that I don't need disc brakes. My thought was that they would give me some really good stopping power when I need it, and that thought is/was comforting. I've never been on a bike with cantilevered brakes, so I don't know what their stopping ability is like.

What is going to be the problem or interference with a BOB trailer and rear panniers?

What is the deal with the bar end shifters? There must be some kind of logic to having them there instead of being like a more common road bike setup. Can someone explain?

Also, I've asked this on a different forum previously, and I was essentially told that they were not worth tiddly-dink. So, what of Tiagra and Sora components? Are they going to need to be tuned every 100 miles, and is a 105 group a minimum? Or, are they okay, get a bad rap, and I should just go with the cheapest, work it into the ground and then upgrade?

Anyone with some thoughts/experience for the Salsa bike?

Thanks to all so far. Good stuff. Please keep it coming.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

No problem with the interface, just that you don't really need to carry more gear than the trailer has the ability to haul. The panniers are extra space that you don't need. 

Sora and Tiagra aren't bad, but they function fundamentally differently than 105/Ultegra/DA, and I would go for 105 all the way around. A bit heavier but functionally the same as even the top of the line Dura-Ace. You won't be upgrading in the middle of a cross country trip. 

You won't need bar end shifters if you just get a full 105 grouppo. I am planning on using them, but that's because I will likely be going with a different gearing setup than standard. They are nice because they allow you to have a 5/6/7/8 speed setup.


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## OdysseyOnWheels (Apr 21, 2008)

SleeveleSS said:


> You won't need bar end shifters if you just get a full 105 grouppo


Hence, I like the Salsa La Cruz, but then it's back to disc brakes. But...whatever.

I've seen a lot of photos with with tourers loaded with a lot more than a rear and a trailer! I haven't done any touring myself, so I don't know exactly how much I could fit or pack. But, an idea of the things that I'm kind of planning on bringing:

laptop
DSLR
Tripod
day pack
Expedition pack
camping gear
wetsuit
books
food


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## the_dude (Jun 25, 2004)

you can't really go wrong with the bikes listed, but i'd opt for the LHT over the CC for a cross-country jaunt. the CC is a jack of all trades, master of none type of bike, and i think you'd really push its limits on a lengthy tour.

if you're really hung up on disc brakes, you should consider the kona sutra. in fact, consider it anyway. it's a sweet rig.

http://konaworld.com/08_sutra_w.htm


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## ToF (Jan 18, 2008)

Some people say trailers are a real pain. Have you considered the xtracycle "hitchless" trailer? Or Surly Big Dummy with the freeloader rack system? Supposedly holds at least as much as a trailer with much better handling. 
http://www.xtracycle.com/dummy-longtail-from-surly-p-122.html


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## the_dude (Jun 25, 2004)

tferris said:


> Some people say trailers are a real pain. Have you considered the xtracycle "hitchless" trailer? Or Surly Big Dummy with the freeloader rack system? Supposedly holds at least as much as a trailer with much better handling.




i think those handle heavy loads at low speeds with great stability. but i'm pretty sure they were designed for short-distance utility rides (ie: grocery run). i think that the school bus length wheelbase would be annoying on the long haul.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

OdysseyOnWheels said:


> Hence, I like the Salsa La Cruz, but then it's back to disc brakes. But...whatever.
> 
> I've seen a lot of photos with with tourers loaded with a lot more than a rear and a trailer! I haven't done any touring myself, so I don't know exactly how much I could fit or pack. But, an idea of the things that I'm kind of planning on bringing:
> 
> ...



Books!! Wetsuit!! You really need to think about how much weight you will be carrying. Have you done any calculations to see how much everything you want will add up to. It's not going to be a very fun trip if you're hauling another hundred pounds around on top of yourself, your bike, and trailer. You can obviously take what you like, but I would try a century hauling that kind of weight and see how you feel after. I don't think you're going to like it. I would like to carry all that stuff too, but it's a balancing act.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Wetsuit?!? Books!!!?! DSLR!?!! Tripod!!!*



OdysseyOnWheels said:


> ....I haven't done any touring myself...


I think you are in love with an idea that isn't going to turn out the way you think it will . 

Get your hands on a bike and pack any way you can and go for a weekend tour. You will learn so much.......

.....and the first thing you will learn is to limit your load.


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

This is a list of stuff that a guy I know is taking around the world by bike (he's 219 days in, ??? days left, currently somewhere in the Atlantic, on a sail boat): https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=3Tzut&page_id=63745&v=4p

And here's a pic of the bike and the stuff (more pics on the site):


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## OdysseyOnWheels (Apr 21, 2008)

SleeveleSS said:


> Books!! Wetsuit!! You really need to think about how much weight you will be carrying. Have you done any calculations to see how much everything you want will add up to. It's not going to be a very fun trip if you're hauling another hundred pounds around on top of yourself, your bike, and trailer. You can obviously take what you like, but I would try a century hauling that kind of weight and see how you feel after. I don't think you're going to like it. I would like to carry all that stuff too, but it's a balancing act.





MB1 said:


> I think you are in love with an idea that isn't going to turn out the way you think it will


I mostly expected this kind of reaction...I'm cool with it, but to each his own. I march to the beat of my own drum, and only many occassions I travel lighter than most of my companions. But, whether I or anyone else carries too much or too little, it is like Glenn Plake said about skiing...it's not whether you're doing it exactly right, it's just about going out and having fun doing it.

I intend to qualify for the USAT age group National Championships at Hagg Lake close to Portland, OR. The wetsuit is coming with as I _partially train_ while going cross country. I intend on improving and taking some fun, great photos as I go along. I am going to get a Nikon D40 + 2 other lenses and then probably another P&S. C'mon, who travels without having something to read?

Tferris, I have seen the xtracycles, but that doesn't really allow me to ride some trails in various parks. Might be a nice bike for hauling stuff near the home, but definitely not what I want.

I think my list has boiled down to:

Surly CC
Soma Double Cross
Kona Sutra
Salsa La Cruz

Any other thoughts/opinions? Open to everything.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

You still didn't answer the question. Do you know how much all this is going to weigh? We can all see why you would want a wetsuit and books and a camera with all the gear, but it comes down to whether you'll be able to haul all that stuff around for months on end and actually enjoy yourself in the process. Two cameras, come on. 

People like MB1, who have a ton more experience than you, are skeptical, and for good reason. A lot of the postal offices on the Appy. Trail send more mail out than they get in for the same reason. People taking everything but the kitchen sink with them, then realizing they actually have to carry that stuff for hundreds of miles. Did you look at the link above? He could travel lighter, but definitely not as much stuff as you intend, and he's at 330 pounds with everything. That's a lot of watts he's putting out day in and day out.

Not trying to talk you out of it. Like I said, I hope to do something similar fairly soon. Just know what you are getting into.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

OdysseyOnWheels said:


> What is the deal with the bar end shifters? There must be some kind of logic to having them there instead of being like a more common road bike setup. Can someone explain?


The logic behind bar end shifters is real simple- they are nearly impossible to break, and they have a friction mode, so when your derailleur cable stretches and your indexing stops working right, you can switch off the indexing and continue to shift in friction mode.

added benefit- they are light. 

Or, you can just do whatever you want.


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## OdysseyOnWheels (Apr 21, 2008)

SleeveleSS said:


> You still didn't answer the question. Do you know how much all this is going to weigh? We can all see why you would want a wetsuit and books and a camera with all the gear, but it comes down to whether you'll be able to haul all that stuff around for months on end and actually enjoy yourself in the process. Two cameras, come on.


Don't exaggerate it. Just because I might admit to taking more than what one might normally take doesn't mean that I'm bringing absolutely everything. I think I can afford to leave the snowshoes at home. Or, maybe I'll take the snowshoes and leave the skis and boots at home instead. Be serious, a D40 kit plus a point and shoot that weighs less than a pound and fits in the front pocket of my pants...? That's nothing.  

At this point, no, I don't know how much it is ALL going to weigh, but I am not concerned that it would even approach the point where I would struggle to get it moving. So, who cares what it weighs? Like I said before, there is no right or wrong way. If I get to Wyoming and want to ship half the stuff home, because I am changing plans, then so what? :7:


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## little_engine_that_could (Apr 22, 2008)

Ha! If you're planning to take all that stuff, you must have a lot of time. Or you are *hard core*! Either way, I admire the spirit. Odds are you will send half of it back, but that's what the post office is for, right? 

In terms of camera, if you get a used Nikon D50, you can buy cheap(er) older lenses to go with it. Most of the quality of the photo comes from the lens anyway (well, first you need a good photographer, but after that...). A D80 would be a good choice too. 

As for books, if you've got the money, look into the Amazon Kindle- many books, one lightweight device. Great product- I wish I could afford one. Also check out the Solio- it's a solar charger for 6-volt devices, like an ipod, laptop, etc. I saw one while hiking the John Muir Trail and it looked very cool.

Have you thought about linking your ride to some sort of cause, like climate change or wildlife corridors? Both of those would play well in the places you're going. Sorry, I don't have names of organizations to link you up with, but googling should provide some leads. Have a great trip!


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Touring and racing don't really mix.*



OdysseyOnWheels said:


> ....I intend to qualify for the USAT age group National Championships at Hagg Lake close to Portland, OR. The wetsuit is coming with as I _partially train_ while going cross country. .....


Hauling all that stuff will make you strong as a horse and slow as an ox.

Unless you intend to race other oxen this is not a good use of resources.

MB1
Done with this.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Long distance touring is comparable in many ways to backpacking. I once hiked the entire Long Trail in Vermont. Started out with a backpack weighing about 50-60 lbs., and the frame actually cracked from the weight during the first week. At the first town stop, first thing I did was remove everything I didn't absolutely need and ship it back to Georgia. I probably removed 20 lbs from my pack, and I never missed any of the stuff I sent back -- except for the sleeping bag, and that led to some very cold nights.


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## OdysseyOnWheels (Apr 21, 2008)

MB1 said:


> Hauling all that stuff will make you strong as a horse and slow as an ox.
> 
> Unless you intend to race other oxen this is not a good use of resources.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't know what the other racers will look like, but if I am going to be racing oxen, then I'll be ready for Pamplona in the summer of the following year. I think I already know that it's not a good use of resources considering I stated that it would be _partially training._ It's about the experience and not the end result, which I thought someone "who has a ton more experience than me" would appreciate, but perhaps not. Focusing on why things won't work all the time gets you nowhere.

l_e_t_c, I have been using a Nikon Coolpix 885 for what seems like an eternity nowadays (bought it early in 2002), and it has been with me everywhere I've been in the world so far. It's been solid. Yet, I'm to the point where I'm needing more capability than it allows. I am going with Ken Rockwell's advice. Click here. Do you shoot much?

I am certainly not a luddite, but I am not down with the Amazon kindle. I have a far easier time staying focused AND interested in what I'm reading when something is printed. I have not had one in front of me, but I am just not interested enough to explore it as an option. Probably will start out with 2 books so that I've got one I am reading and have the other as a possible trade when I encounter somebody looking for something new.

Cheers.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

long/steep descents with a heavy load, yeah I can see why you might want discs... you could do a mullet... get a fork with disc tabs and go disc front-only. that's where you needs the stopping power anyway, and with a canti rear you won't have any (rear) rack interference.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

FatTireFred said:


> long/steep descents with a heavy load, yeah I can see why you might want discs... you could do a mullet... get a fork with disc tabs and go disc front-only. that's where you needs the stopping power anyway, and with a canti rear you won't have any (rear) rack interference.


That's good advice. 

To the OP: I'm not trying to exaggerate at all. First, sure the P&S won't weight much, but that combined with all the other "excesses" adds up to quickly to quite a bit of weight. It's not about one single excess, that you can handle easily, it's about all of them combined. Second, if you don't know how much it weighs, and you don't know how much you can tow, then you really have no idea if you will "struggle to get it moving." You're just guessing, and it's not even an educated guess at that. No one is trying to focus on the negative, as many of us have said what a cool trip it will be. 

We are trying to give you advice on what we think will be your biggest problem, because we all want you to succeed. You came onto a forum for advice, though admittedly not about weight issues. We have helped with the frame and brake issues, and are just trying to do the same with how much stuff you're taking. 

Oh, and look up MB1's old posts to see how well he "shoots."

Have fun.


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## OdysseyOnWheels (Apr 21, 2008)

SleeveleSS said:


> That's good advice.
> 
> To the OP: I'm not trying to exaggerate at all. First, sure the P&S won't weight much, but that combined with all the other "excesses" adds up to quickly to quite a bit of weight. It's not about one single excess, that you can handle easily, it's about all of them combined. Second, if you don't know how much it weighs, and you don't know how much you can tow, then you really have no idea if you will "struggle to get it moving." You're just guessing, and it's not even an educated guess at that. No one is trying to focus on the negative, as many of us have said what a cool trip it will be.
> 
> ...


Yes, I appreciate the advice. However, we differ on the other aspect of what and how much I will be towing. I have listed some of the "excesses," but that doesn't mean it is a defined and comprehensive list. You assume it is an uneducated guess just based on the few brief forum posts I have made, but the reality is that I have a very good idea of how much I can tow and am certain that I won't have a problem. I am even more certain since I am the only one who understands the scale of excesses I _might_ be taking. This may be my first "rodeo" for loaded touring, but I have been to plenty other "rodeos" (sp? rodeoes ... ? ... doesn't look right...) to sufficiently know my capabilities.

It is hard to understand the scales of another's limitations and abilities by just posting Q's & A's to a board even when some questions are routine and "amateur-ish," but that doesn't mean the assumptions by the forum or anyone else are bonafide. Nonetheless, the warnings are understood and noted. I'm not resentful about it, just the fair tinge of touche! 

I think that before I go home today, I will swing by the bike shop near campus to see what they have too. I have been scouring the local Craigslists for BOBs and other brands on my list, but nothing has yet shown itself...the waiting...!


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## little_engine_that_could (Apr 22, 2008)

Odyssey,

I am still a novice, though prolific, shooter. I recently went through the same decision tree you did, and picked the D50 because of the backwards compatibility and a good deal on a used model. The D40 is a great camera too and I'm sure you will enjoy either one. Check the forums at dpreview.com, if you haven't already. I agree with the back-up P&S- it's nice to have something you can fit in any pocket.

The three things I find indispensible while travelling:
1. Sunscreen
2. Camera
3. As little of everything else as you are willing to take

Your milage may vary.

Bon voyage!


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