# Where can I buy EPO or Hgh?



## wzq622

Im interested in knowing where I can buy any performance enhancing drugs. Anyone know some sources?


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## ttug

*easy answer*



wzq622 said:


> Im interested in knowing where I can buy any performance enhancing drugs. Anyone know some sources?


I have always found my favorite drug "a desire to be a better cyclist" in the bathroom mirror every morning.

Its dirt cheap and available at all bathrooms with mirrors.........


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## Bocephus Jones II

wzq622 said:


> Im interested in knowing where I can buy any performance enhancing drugs. Anyone know some sources?


Head down to the South Pier...ask for a guy named Ramon. He can set you up.


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## Dwayne Barry

wzq622 said:


> Im interested in knowing where I can buy any performance enhancing drugs. Anyone know some sources?


Mexico. Typically border towns have MDs and pharmacies where you can get what you want, and as I understand it, as long as it's just a personal amount and you have the prescription the border agents can't do anything about it.

HGH can probably be had at any hardcore bodybuilding/powerlifting gym, they probably wouldn't know what EPO is though


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## Silver222

Dwayne Barry said:


> Mexico. Typically border towns have MDs and pharmacies where you can get what you want, and as I understand it, as long as it's just a personal amount and you have the prescription the border agents can't do anything about it.


I think you may to have have an American prescription when you come back across the border though, you might want to check on that...last time I came back from Mexico, the border agent was very very curious if I had an Vicodin on me.

Maybe he had a bad back?


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## Dwayne Barry

Silver222 said:


> I think you may to have have an American prescription when you come back across the border though, you might want to check on that...last time I came back from Mexico, the border agent was very very curious if I had an Vicodin on me.
> 
> Maybe he had a bad back?


I've never done it personally or probably ever will  and maybe they've changed the rules, but the stories I've seen on TV made it sound like they've got it set up in those towns so you just go see the Mexican MD's, get your prescription, walk next door to the pharmacy and get it filled and cross the border and the border agents were helpless to stop you as long as you had the prescription.


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## wzq622

Wow, you guys make this sound easy.


Since I live in TX, I guess it wouldnt be too much of a hassle to drive into Meheeko for some good stuff.





on-de-lay!


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## Dwayne Barry

wzq622 said:


> Wow, you guys make this sound easy.
> 
> 
> Since I live in TX, I guess it wouldnt be too much of a hassle to drive into Meheeko for some good stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on-de-lay!


Report back on what you find out


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## Utah CragHopper

Dwayne Barry said:


> Report back on what you find out


This could be the first step in making a connection for RBR. Maybe we should create a group shopping list.


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## magnolialover

*Could also...*



wzq622 said:


> Wow, you guys make this sound easy.
> 
> 
> Since I live in TX, I guess it wouldnt be too much of a hassle to drive into Meheeko for some good stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on-de-lay!


Did you ever read the article in Outside magazine about the guy who decided to try out the performance enhancing drugs and see what happened. Well, there are doctors all over the place who go under the name of "youth" doctors, and they promote stuff to make you feel younger and healthier. So they'll pretty much prescribe whatever it is you want to use, and help you to use it and monitor your use. Drugs such as EPO should probably never be used without supervision, as you run the high risk of killing yourself if you don't use it correctly (blood too thick, won't pump, you then have a heart attack and die). I saw it happen once when I was in high school, I was at a junior world cup nordic ski event working as a course marshal, and this kid just collapsed as he skated by. He was non-responsive of the spot, and he was dead before they got him to the hospital, it ended up he was on EPO. So the doctor route in the US seems to be very expensive, so if you're well heeled, you could go that way. If not, be careful if you do decide to be a cheater and a doper... And to end it all, I hope you get caught. Because that would be hilarious. A cat nothing getting busted for doping. Good luck dumb arse.


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## Dwayne Barry

magnolialover said:


> And to end it all, I hope you get caught. Because that would be hilarious. A cat nothing getting busted for doping. Good luck dumb arse.


I'd venture a guess that we're all kidding here, so lighten up Francis.


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## magnolialover

*Why?*



Dwayne Barry said:


> I'd venture a guess that we're all kidding here, so lighten up Francis.


Why should I? We do have a problem with doping in the sport, so if this guy is serious, and he might be, we don't know, he deserves all of the scorn, and then some I can heap upon him.


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## ttug

*really?*



magnolialover said:


> Why should I? We do have a problem with doping in the sport, so if this guy is serious, and he might be, we don't know, he deserves all of the scorn, and then some I can heap upon him.



Does that include the thread you started about bannning certain posts while letting the whole world know about some poor slob who doped and then got nailed?

Are you our board editor? Did a position open up?


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## magnolialover

*Last I knew...*



ttug said:


> Does that include the thread you started about bannning certain posts while letting the whole world know about some poor slob who doped and then got nailed?
> 
> Are you our board editor? Did a position open up?


I asked others about a moratorium on Lance Armstrong posts. I did not say we should ban all posts about it, I asked if others would be on-board about a moratorium. Since not many people agreed, and it would have been a self policing action on our own behalf, it obviously didn't work.

The other post about some poor slob that got nailed for doping, yes, I posted that. He is now considered a doper, and he got suspended for it. The reason I posted it is because first, this is the Doping forum, this is where it belongs. And second, it's ironic because of all of the smack that he talked about my team, and my former teammate (who is also a doper by the way) and then he got busted for doping as well. As I mentioned before, it couldn't have happened to a nicer person. If you don't know Mr. Dreyer, get to know him, and you'd agree that the sport is better off without him around.

So yes, on a doping forum, if I have some dumb ass college kid asking about where to buy HGH and EPO, I'm going to heap scorn on him. I've had plenty heaped on me. It's not turnabout, it's called telling it like it is. Sorry you don't like that. Maybe the head should go back into the sand?? Don't know really.


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## dagger

*I think the topic was a joke*



magnolialover said:


> So yes, on a doping forum, if I have some dumb ass college kid asking about where to buy HGH and EPO, I'm going to heap scorn on him. .


Have a Lance Armstrong day  ....just kidding.lol


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## magnolialover

*Sadly enough...*



dagger said:


> Have a Lance Armstrong day  ....just kidding.lol


Sadly enough, I had a co-worker today, who is oblivious to cycling in general, ask me if Lance and Sheryl had broken up. I might as well just give in and let the Lance-o-philes run wild, since I can't seem to stop it, even from the non-informed.


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## dagger

*Which is tougher?*



magnolialover said:


> Sadly enough, I had a co-worker today, who is oblivious to cycling in general, ask me if Lance and Sheryl had broken up. I might as well just give in and let the Lance-o-philes run wild, since I can't seem to stop it, even from the non-informed.


Being a genius in a village of idiots or an idiot in a village of geniuses. Btw...Did they break up?


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## magnolialover

*I am...*



dagger said:


> Being a genius in a village of idiots or an idiot in a village of geniuses. Btw...Did they break up?


I am my own "special" genius in a village of idiots. It just depends on what we happen to be talking about at work.

I'm not sure if they broke up or not. Then again, I don't really care if they did or not. That's just how I feel about "celebrity" stuff anyway.


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## ttug

*uh NO*



magnolialover said:


> I am my own "special" genius in a village of idiots. It just depends on what we happen to be talking about at work.
> 
> I'm not sure if they broke up or not. Then again, I don't really care if they did or not. That's just how I feel about "celebrity" stuff anyway.



1)Thgough you may desire to have the monopoly on scorn, you are not in charge of the scorn wagon. 

2)If you are a genius, then why did you go to a public forum and suggest to folks not to post on a topic you find disagreeable. Thats an ego issue and hardly intelligent.that falls outside the genius circle....yeah.

3)I personally could not care about some loser who dopes, its a fact that bad things happen. It chokes me up every day. However I choose not to try and assume the identity of scorn wagon chief in charge of the sub genius cynics without a clue bandwagon. They are cheap and are bought and sold every day.

4)I know you dont want a Lance Hug or a Lance Day but face it Lance Lance Lance gets you through the day. Specifically, you post stuff about performance enhancing potential within HGH which in reality is completely false and propogates the myth of what dope can do.HOWEVER you claim some degree of genius among your co-workers. You are part of the doping problem and yet your incredible intellect prevents you from seeing that. Thats telling it like it is and yeah perpetuating ignorance is pretty much the same as promoting the drug. BUT, your incredible cognitive skills probably let you know that by now.

5)Lighten up. The thread was a joke, much like your knowledge with your co workers but the thread was started by an individual who has yet to make such a lofty claim. Dont worry, I am sure some concerned person will report this post as I am a terrible person for pointing out that reciting utter nonsense from Newsweek about doping and trying to promote that as fact is just not up to snuff for the genius.


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## rocco

*the rain in Spain*

Where you ask?

In Spain at schools, sporting clubs, specialist stores and Internet sites.


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## ttug

*and once*



rocco said:


> Where you ask?
> 
> In Spain at schools, sporting clubs, specialist stores and Internet sites.


"Once when I was very young I saw a cellist being hung....."


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## rocco

*some who plays a violoncello?*



ttug said:


> "Once when I was very young I saw a cellist being hung....."



Sleeping With Your Devil Mask by Robyn Hitchcock?

OK I'm tired now and of diminished mental capacity... I don't get it.


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## rocco

*Brought to you Ortho Biotech Products*

Does anyone else find the name Procrit to amusing?


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## ttug

*both*



rocco said:


> Sleeping With Your Devil Mask by Robyn Hitchcock?
> 
> OK I'm tired now and of diminished mental capacity... I don't get it.



Do both.

I prefer Bach but I spent a few years transcribing Coltrane for cello. However, Hitchcock did have a cool point in that song, very very much like proclaimed genius in the Doping Forum. It was at best digression. My apologies. 

My favorite drug name is Lipotor. I await the name to be a He Man character, but no chance....


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## magnolialover

*Man...*



ttug said:


> 1)Thgough you may desire to have the monopoly on scorn, you are not in charge of the scorn wagon.
> 
> 2)If you are a genius, then why did you go to a public forum and suggest to folks not to post on a topic you find disagreeable. Thats an ego issue and hardly intelligent.that falls outside the genius circle....yeah.
> 
> 3)I personally could not care about some loser who dopes, its a fact that bad things happen. It chokes me up every day. However I choose not to try and assume the identity of scorn wagon chief in charge of the sub genius cynics without a clue bandwagon. They are cheap and are bought and sold every day.
> 
> 4)I know you dont want a Lance Hug or a Lance Day but face it Lance Lance Lance gets you through the day. Specifically, you post stuff about performance enhancing potential within HGH which in reality is completely false and propogates the myth of what dope can do.HOWEVER you claim some degree of genius among your co-workers. You are part of the doping problem and yet your incredible intellect prevents you from seeing that. Thats telling it like it is and yeah perpetuating ignorance is pretty much the same as promoting the drug. BUT, your incredible cognitive skills probably let you know that by now.
> 
> 5)Lighten up. The thread was a joke, much like your knowledge with your co workers but the thread was started by an individual who has yet to make such a lofty claim. Dont worry, I am sure some concerned person will report this post as I am a terrible person for pointing out that reciting utter nonsense from Newsweek about doping and trying to promote that as fact is just not up to snuff for the genius.


Man, someone woke up on the grumpy side of the bed this morning. Talk about some personal attacks against me, when the only thing I think I've ever done to you is talk bad about your personal idol Lance. And here I thought I only get personal attacks because I shave my legs.

Well, as Samuel L. Jackson once said in a movie, "let me retort."

1. I am actually in charge of the scorn wagon that is currently parked in my own cubicle. I cannot, nor have ever said I could, control the scorn that is heaped upon others for various topics. I would not want to be in charge of the scorn wagon because that would be a tough job. I can only heap scorn upon those that I think may or may not deserve it. Just so you know, I can and do sling mud at myself a lot more often than other just random people. The guy I was talking about before in another thread about getting busted as a doper, if you knew him, you'd probably dislike him as well, because basically, he's a "turd" of a person. If you do know him, and like him, and are friends with him, well, I'd probably say then that I'd dislike you as well, but since I don't know you, and you don't know me, I'll reserve said judgement for the time and place when I do happen to meet you, which may or may not happen (probably not). 

2. If you noticed, when I said "genius" I placed that word in quotations, denoting that I don't take myself very seriously. And I'm not sure why suggesting that people have a moratorium on certain postings decreases my alleged "genius" any... It never was an ego issue, it was an issue of I'm sick of hearing things about Lance Armstrong. I proposed said moratorium, and it was rejected en mass, so there is really nothing I can do about it. Now if I were a moderator, that's something different. I could just delete all Lance affiliated postings and then rule the Pro Cycling forum with an iron fist. Then again, I wouldn't do that, because hey, if it floats your boat to talk endlessly about Lance and everything about him from cycling computers, wheels, bikes, girlfriends, and so on, far be it from me to stop you from doing that, but I will still make fun of you for doing it. Hey, you post. I respond. I never attack anyone personally, like you have done to me. I attack the idea behind the post if that's what I choose to engage in. So am I genius? Nah, probably not, but I do have lots of opinions, and you know what they say about that don't you?

3. I do care about dumb losers who dope, because it damages the sport of cycling as a whole and puts it into a bad light. If you had ever raced a bike, you'd probably know more about this. Then again, once again, I don't know you, maybe you do race a bike once in awhile, but I doubt it's at the level or intensity that I do. So yes, when some dumb person gets popped for doping, it does affect me, and it affects my sport, so I care. I feel sorry for you if you don't. For example, last year, one of my teammates got busted for taking EPO. He was subsequently suspended for 2 years from cycling. This got my club to thinking that supporting racing was not such a good idea after all, and they have pulled back funding from the race team. Now, what was once one of the better and larger race squads in the Southeast has been reduced to just a handful of people who race. We still have a large club, and many good people in the club, but we now focus on rec riders and challenge rides. So don't lecture me about caring about doping in the sport, it has affected me on a personal level.

4. If you had noticed, I haven't posted much on Lance lately, and the only reason I do post something on him is when one of you calls me out on it. Go back and look at how many of my posts actually deal with, or talk about Lance Armstrong, not many my friend. Does he get me through the day? Hardly. Diet Pepsi and salty snacks do that. The only thing I know about the performance enhancing abilities of HGH are from articles that I've read in the past, and other posted information. Does it work? Hell, I don't know. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. That's just the information I had read from a series of articles. Do you have personal experience with HGH and could tell me yourself whether or not it works? I doubt it. So you don't know any better than I do I'm quite certain. I'm part of the doping problem?? How is that? And yes, just so you know, I'm an expert at perpetuating ignorance. If someone takes information from an internet forum and takes that as truth plain and simple, well, I feel for them immensely, because really, we're ALL just a bunch of idiots with opinions and thoughts, and there aren't many of us on here that really know what the heck it is we're talking about. We're just juxtaposing and assuming. I will say that there seems to be some people on here with a good knowledge base about some things, but as a whole, there is a whole heap of bad advice given out here on a daily basis.

5. Once again; how can I tell the thread was a joke? He didn't say, "Hey this is a joke." Do subtle nuances come through very well with a written word where there isn't any emphasis placed on anything that he wrote? Nope, sorry. As far as my co-workers, you don't know them either, and once again, you don't know me. Hell, I could be a member of Mensa and or have graduated from MIT or some other institute of higher learning, and I could be a genius. Chances are not good for that of course, but I mentioned that I am a genius compared to some of my co-workers in a sense that I know more about cycling than they do. And once again, notice the quotations I placed around the word genius in the original post. I was making light of my own situation. I was reciting utter nonsense from an article I had originally read in Outside magazine, I'm sure someone could provide a link to it. This was where this guy took all sorts of allegedly performance enhancing drugs,  and reported back on his experience with them. So now first hand experience is nonsense? I fail to see where you could come up with that assertion. If I remember correctly, the guy who did this little experiment on himself claimed that out of everything he took, the HGH made him feel the best, and it was one thing that he would consider taking on a continual basis. So to say that it has no effect, well, you don't know unless you've been on it yourself. Have you? 

Just so you know, I don't think you're a terrible person, because, I don't know you. Maybe if I did, I would think that, but based on the "facts" that I have on-hand right now, I'd say you have a certain disdain for me, which is fine. I have enough friends already.


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## ttug

*try Bogart*



magnolialover said:


> Man, someone woke up on the grumpy side of the bed this morning. Talk about some personal attacks against me, when the only thing I think I've ever done to you is talk bad about your personal idol Lance. And here I thought I only get personal attacks because I shave my legs.
> 
> Well, as Samuel L. Jackson once said in a movie, "let me retort."
> 
> 1. I am actually in charge of the scorn wagon that is currently parked in my own cubicle. I cannot, nor have ever said I could, control the scorn that is heaped upon others for various topics. I would not want to be in charge of the scorn wagon because that would be a tough job. I can only heap scorn upon those that I think may or may not deserve it. Just so you know, I can and do sling mud at myself a lot more often than other just random people. The guy I was talking about before in another thread about getting busted as a doper, if you knew him, you'd probably dislike him as well, because basically, he's a "turd" of a person. If you do know him, and like him, and are friends with him, well, I'd probably say then that I'd dislike you as well, but since I don't know you, and you don't know me, I'll reserve said judgement for the time and place when I do happen to meet you, which may or may not happen (probably not).
> 
> 2. If you noticed, when I said "genius" I placed that word in quotations, denoting that I don't take myself very seriously. And I'm not sure why suggesting that people have a moratorium on certain postings decreases my alleged "genius" any... It never was an ego issue, it was an issue of I'm sick of hearing things about Lance Armstrong. I proposed said moratorium, and it was rejected en mass, so there is really nothing I can do about it. Now if I were a moderator, that's something different. I could just delete all Lance affiliated postings and then rule the Pro Cycling forum with an iron fist. Then again, I wouldn't do that, because hey, if it floats your boat to talk endlessly about Lance and everything about him from cycling computers, wheels, bikes, girlfriends, and so on, far be it from me to stop you from doing that, but I will still make fun of you for doing it. Hey, you post. I respond. I never attack anyone personally, like you have done to me. I attack the idea behind the post if that's what I choose to engage in. So am I genius? Nah, probably not, but I do have lots of opinions, and you know what they say about that don't you?
> 
> 3. I do care about dumb losers who dope, because it damages the sport of cycling as a whole and puts it into a bad light. If you had ever raced a bike, you'd probably know more about this. Then again, once again, I don't know you, maybe you do race a bike once in awhile, but I doubt it's at the level or intensity that I do. So yes, when some dumb person gets popped for doping, it does affect me, and it affects my sport, so I care. I feel sorry for you if you don't. For example, last year, one of my teammates got busted for taking EPO. He was subsequently suspended for 2 years from cycling. This got my club to thinking that supporting racing was not such a good idea after all, and they have pulled back funding from the race team. Now, what was once one of the better and larger race squads in the Southeast has been reduced to just a handful of people who race. We still have a large club, and many good people in the club, but we now focus on rec riders and challenge rides. So don't lecture me about caring about doping in the sport, it has affected me on a personal level.
> 
> 4. If you had noticed, I haven't posted much on Lance lately, and the only reason I do post something on him is when one of you calls me out on it. Go back and look at how many of my posts actually deal with, or talk about Lance Armstrong, not many my friend. Does he get me through the day? Hardly. Diet Pepsi and salty snacks do that. The only thing I know about the performance enhancing abilities of HGH are from articles that I've read in the past, and other posted information. Does it work? Hell, I don't know. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. That's just the information I had read from a series of articles. Do you have personal experience with HGH and could tell me yourself whether or not it works? I doubt it. So you don't know any better than I do I'm quite certain. I'm part of the doping problem?? How is that? And yes, just so you know, I'm an expert at perpetuating ignorance. If someone takes information from an internet forum and takes that as truth plain and simple, well, I feel for them immensely, because really, we're ALL just a bunch of idiots with opinions and thoughts, and there aren't many of us on here that really know what the heck it is we're talking about. We're just juxtaposing and assuming. I will say that there seems to be some people on here with a good knowledge base about some things, but as a whole, there is a whole heap of bad advice given out here on a daily basis.
> 
> 5. Once again; how can I tell the thread was a joke? He didn't say, "Hey this is a joke." Do subtle nuances come through very well with a written word where there isn't any emphasis placed on anything that he wrote? Nope, sorry. As far as my co-workers, you don't know them either, and once again, you don't know me. Hell, I could be a member of Mensa and or have graduated from MIT or some other institute of higher learning, and I could be a genius. Chances are not good for that of course, but I mentioned that I am a genius compared to some of my co-workers in a sense that I know more about cycling than they do. And once again, notice the quotations I placed around the word genius in the original post. I was making light of my own situation. I was reciting utter nonsense from an article I had originally read in Outside magazine, I'm sure someone could provide a link to it. This was where this guy took all sorts of allegedly performance enhancing drugs, and reported back on his experience with them. So now first hand experience is nonsense? I fail to see where you could come up with that assertion. If I remember correctly, the guy who did this little experiment on himself claimed that out of everything he took, the HGH made him feel the best, and it was one thing that he would consider taking on a continual basis. So to say that it has no effect, well, you don't know unless you've been on it yourself. Have you?
> 
> Just so you know, I don't think you're a terrible person, because, I don't know you. Maybe if I did, I would think that, but based on the "facts" that I have on-hand right now, I'd say you have a certain disdain for me, which is fine. I have enough friends already.


The facts of life are that when you promote ignorance, you perpetuate a problem. If you dont like it, I cant help you.

If a person disagrees with anyone here, its hopeful that there is some sort of exchange of information. Not oh, I get it, you dont like me. 

Hey, Good Luck out there.......


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## magnolialover

*Hmmm...*



ttug said:


> The facts of life are that when you promote ignorance, you perpetuate a problem. If you dont like it, I cant help you.
> 
> If a person disagrees with anyone here, its hopeful that there is some sort of exchange of information. Not oh, I get it, you dont like me.
> 
> Hey, Good Luck out there.......


So what ignorance have I promoted lately? I'm just wondering if you could help me out with this one since I can't, or don't seem to know exactly what it is you're talking about. What problems have I perpetuated (within this forum)? I'm actually quite an understanding person for the most part, and I listen to "both sides" of arguments and make judgements then. So if you're going to sling around things about me saying that I'm ignorant and are perpetuating problems, at least tell me what it is I've done to so "wrong" you. 

You didn't make disagreements with me my friend, you just basically came out swining at me. So yeah, I could say you don't like me, and as I said before, I'm fine with that. I'm sure that there are lots of people who don't like me.

Hey good luck yourself. Remember, this is an internet forum, not life and death.


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## magnolialover

*Also...*



magnolialover said:


> So what ignorance have I promoted lately? I'm just wondering if you could help me out with this one since I can't, or don't seem to know exactly what it is you're talking about. What problems have I perpetuated (within this forum)? I'm actually quite an understanding person for the most part, and I listen to "both sides" of arguments and make judgements then. So if you're going to sling around things about me saying that I'm ignorant and are perpetuating problems, at least tell me what it is I've done to so "wrong" you.
> 
> You didn't make disagreements with me my friend, you just basically came out swining at me. So yeah, I could say you don't like me, and as I said before, I'm fine with that. I'm sure that there are lots of people who don't like me.
> 
> Hey good luck yourself. Remember, this is an internet forum, not life and death.


Also, you seem to have this hang up about something I said about HGH and your ascertion that it doesn't do anything for you, and that HGH is all bunk. Well, I did a little looking, just a little, and here's what I found:

According to a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine (let me remind you that this is one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world and everything in it is properly vetted) conducted by a Dr. Rudman and published in 1990, concluded that HGH injections have the following effects on a person:

8.8% increase in muscle mass on average after six months, without exercise 
14.4% loss of fat on average after six months, without dieting 
Higher energy levels 
Enhanced sexual performance 
Regrowth of heart, liver, spleen, kidneys and other organs that shrink with age 
Greater cardiac output 
Superior immune function 
Increased exercise performance 
Better kidney function 
Lowered blood pressure 
Improved cholesterol profile, with higher HDL and lower LDL 
Stronger bones 
Faster wound healing 
Younger, tighter, thicker skin 
Hair regrowth 
Wrinkle removal 
Elimination of cellulite 
Sharper vision 
Mood elevation 
Increased memory retention 
Improved sleep 

Abstract of this study can be found at this link:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content...7812362362_3134&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=nejm


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## ttug

*wrong*



magnolialover said:


> Also, you seem to have this hang up about something I said about HGH and your ascertion that it doesn't do anything for you, and that HGH is all bunk. Well, I did a little looking, just a little, and here's what I found:
> 
> According to a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine (let me remind you that this is one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world and everything in it is properly vetted) conducted by a Dr. Rudman and published in 1990, concluded that HGH injections have the following effects on a person:
> 
> 8.8% increase in muscle mass on average after six months, without exercise
> 14.4% loss of fat on average after six months, without dieting
> Higher energy levels
> Enhanced sexual performance
> Regrowth of heart, liver, spleen, kidneys and other organs that shrink with age
> Greater cardiac output
> Superior immune function
> Increased exercise performance
> Better kidney function
> Lowered blood pressure
> Improved cholesterol profile, with higher HDL and lower LDL
> Stronger bones
> Faster wound healing
> Younger, tighter, thicker skin
> Hair regrowth
> Wrinkle removal
> Elimination of cellulite
> Sharper vision
> Mood elevation
> Increased memory retention
> Improved sleep
> 
> Abstract of this study can be found at this link:
> http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content...7812362362_3134&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=nejm


The study is 15 years old. The newer studies, 12 years after the initial NEJM article were able to also find usage of rHGH and HGH and believe it or not, 12 years of data actually yielded a more realistic picture. NONE of the gains (musculature etc etc) were validated within the BJSM.In fact, they were refuted. 

What was validated was the overuse of HGH or rHGH DO YIELD negative results for the subjects that were tested. (HIV patients and some athletes). However, the regular abuse of HGH or rHGH is not ethically possible to test at the moment. Seems like not a soul wants to stand up and say wow, I abused HGH for years etc etc The aerobic gains, also refuted. In fact, current stuff is leaning towards a diminished capacity.

You cited an article thats 12 years old and is not valid in 2005.

When you promote a 12 year old study as the gospel of what HGH can do, you are perpetuating a doping myth. Hey, we dont know yet, but look at what we think it will do!!!!!! Yeah, no temptation there huh?

so, 13 year later we get this. This was posted on another thread:

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredke
Actually, there are sanctioned ethical studies of HGH and athletic performance. See, for instance, the review papers, P.J. Jenkins, "Growth hormone and exercise: physiology, use and abuse," Growth Hormone and IGF Research, Vol. 11, Supplement A, pp. S71-7 (2001) and M.J. Rennie, "Claims for the anabolic effects of growth hormone: a case of the emperor's new clothes?" British Journal of Sports Medicine, Vol. 37, pp. 100-5 (2003). However, the results of these studies showed no ergogenic effects from administering supraphysiological doses of HGH, and thus support your assertion that HGH will not enhance your performance. 


http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/37/2/100

The above is using known issues with usage in HIV patients and the known problems of over use/abuse.

The article below however is the point of HGH usage, you cant ethically test what happens when you abuse it. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1228&query_hl=3

Due to the ethical limitations (fun huh?)


of studying the use of high doses of GH in isolation or combined with anabolic steroids, the scientific literature has not produced compelling results on its efficacy. GH has potential as an anti-aging drug and does lead to some improved athletic performance in isolated studies. Despite the lack of compelling data, GH seems to have developed a reputation among athletes for enhancing performance. The detection of illegal doping with GH has been the focus of a concerted international effort by the International Olympic Committee."

The quote above in in an actual thread in the Doping Forum and in sum despite the limited populations available, there is no evidence that would uphold the assertion the HGH or rhGH would in any way boost recovery.In fact, its overuse that has been documented shows the opposite. In fact, in combination with steroids rhGH or HGH does NOT yield any of the effects sought in the development of musculator or the often sought after recovery rate.

I was wrong to have stated that there were no (in totum) studies on the matter. The missing link (no pun here) is that there are not studies that have the effectes of long term abuse within athletes as the ethics (funny word) of that would cause very serious sanctions.


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## Dwayne Barry

I think one of the big problems in looking at the scientific literature is that you have to remember studies are only generalizable to the population studied. Could HGH offer some sort of performance advantage to a pro cyclist engaging in very intense/high volume training, what about the local bad ass training 20-25 hours a week, what about the cat. 4 shlub doing 10 hours a week, what about a deconditioned HIV patient, what about a natural bodybulder, what about the guy taking huge doses of steroids, a sedentary guy starting a training program? I suspect the answer will vary greatly depending on the population. The few HIV-related papers I've seen on HGH seem to support it's use as a muscle builder and reverser of the aerobic impairment in this population (which may be related to the increased muscle mass), that doesn't mean it would help your typical compeitive cyclist though.


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## ttug

*exactly*



Dwayne Barry said:


> I think one of the big problems in looking at the scientific literature is that you have to remember studies are only generalizable to the population studied. Could HGH offer some sort of performance advantage to a pro cyclist engaging in very intense/high volume training, what about the local bad ass training 20-25 hours a week, what about the cat. 4 shlub doing 10 hours a week, what about a deconditioned HIV patient, what about a natural bodybulder, what about the guy taking huge doses of steroids, a sedentary guy starting a training program? I suspect the answer will vary greatly depending on the population. The few HIV-related papers I've seen on HGH seem to support it's use as a muscle builder and reverser of the aerobic impairment in this population (which may be related to the increased muscle mass), that doesn't mean it would help your typical compeitive cyclist though.


As you point out, there does not at this point seem to be a clear cut take this and watch what happens with HGH period. Each population has who knows whatever permutations as far as results or placebo.

However, it is irksome to watch folks go nuts with substance x making you the next son of krypton. Thats where the harm is, IMO


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## ttug

*this is what really happens*

Look what happened, oh man, it was horrible HGH abuse revealed (warning humor ahead)


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## rocco

*choice cut*



ttug said:


> Look what happened, oh man, it was horrible HGH abuse revealed (warning humor ahead)



nice marbling!


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## Dwayne Barry

ttug said:


> Look what happened, oh man, it was horrible HGH abuse revealed (warning humor ahead)


And I thought it was going to be a picture of Stefano Zanini  That guy's jaw is getting disturbingly huge, he's going to look like a cartoon character before long.


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## wzq622

dude, that is one F-ed up picture, especially glancing at it at 1:13 in the morning. Creeped the bejeezus outta me. ***Cold sweat***

no more meat-face pics of wide-eyed grls.









Yes, I started this thread as a joke because :

1) I was curious as to the responses of rbr posters
2) the attainability of such drugs

It's not my direct intention to start any conflict but it was unavoidable with such an innane thread. I was more interested in actual responses that pertained to the question rather than those who took the time to chastize my stupidity. Curiosity was the reason I started this thread. I rarely venture into the Doping forum as I am not interested in opinions. However, I was curious as to the accessibility of performance enhancing drugs. I never expected serious responses, but as more responses were posted the more intrigued I became.

If you are genuinely concerned about the seriousness of my thread, then rest assured. I will not touch any type of drugs that will negatively impact my health and life. I am a cyclist because I love the feeling of freedom when riding and the deep passion i have for the sport. I have no aspirations on becoming professional, although I dream night and day of being a cyclist in a pro peloton. With all the horror stories of riders who dope, I have realized the dark and grim consequences of such drugs. In a way, I am learning from their mistakes.


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## rocco

wzq622 said:


> dude, that is one F-ed up picture, especially glancing at it at 1:13 in the morning. Creeped the bejeezus outta me. ***Cold sweat***
> 
> no more meat-face pics of wide-eyed grls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I started this thread as a joke because :
> 
> 1) I was curious as to the responses of rbr posters
> 2) the attainability of such drugs
> 
> It's not my direct intention to start any conflict but it was unavoidable with such an innane thread. I was more interested in actual responses that pertained to the question rather than those who took the time to chastize my stupidity. Curiosity was the reason I started this thread. I rarely venture into the Doping forum as I am not interested in opinions. However, I was curious as to the accessibility of performance enhancing drugs. I never expected serious responses, but as more responses were posted the more intrigued I became.
> 
> If you are genuinely concerned about the seriousness of my thread, then rest assured. I will not touch any type of drugs that will negatively impact my health and life. I am a cyclist because I love the feeling of freedom when riding and the deep passion i have for the sport. I have no aspirations on becoming professional, although I dream night and day of being a cyclist in a pro peloton. With all the horror stories of riders who dope, I have realized the dark and grim consequences of such drugs. In a way, I am learning from their mistakes.



I found it impossible to take seriously and I'm not sure why anyone else would.


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## magnolialover

*Because*



rocco said:


> I found it impossible to take seriously and I'm not sure why anyone else would.


Because sarcasm, or "jokes" sometimes don't come across well in a written format unless otherwise noted. The original poster, although now has said it was a joke, it didn't appear that way to me when I first read it, and because there are people on here stupid enough (not necessarily the original poster) who would ask such a question in a public format.


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## ttug

*ergo*



magnolialover said:


> Because sarcasm, or "jokes" sometimes don't come across well in a written format unless otherwise noted. The original poster, although now has said it was a joke, it didn't appear that way to me when I first read it, and because there are people on here stupid enough (not necessarily the original poster) who would ask such a question in a public format.


Thats why they posted the question in a public forum, it was a humorous action. It is again highly probable that you didnt get that AND other folks did. It could happen.


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## rocco

*and....*



magnolialover said:


> Because sarcasm, or "jokes" sometimes don't come across well in a written format unless otherwise noted. The original poster, although now has said it was a joke, it didn't appear that way to me when I first read it, and because there are people on here stupid enough (not necessarily the original poster) who would ask such a question in a public format.



Either way I found it impossible to take seriously and I'm not sure why anyone else would.


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## crashjames

*can we please*

can we please have that moratorium on MagnoliaLover posts? Seriously.


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## ttug

*uh oh*



crashjames said:


> can we please have that moratorium on MagnoliaLover posts? Seriously.


You forgot to let folks know this was done in humor.


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## crashjames

*not that funny*



ttug said:


> You forgot to let folks know this was done in humor.


I'm kindof not kidding.


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## Fogdweller

Dwayne Barry said:


> I've never done it personally or probably ever will  and maybe they've changed the rules, but the stories I've seen on TV made it sound like they've got it set up in those towns so you just go see the Mexican MD's, get your prescription, walk next door to the pharmacy and get it filled and cross the border and the border agents were helpless to stop you as long as you had the prescription.


20/20 did a special on this not too long ago. I think it was Quinones who went down to buy a full compliment of goods. They asked him for a prescription and he didn't have one so the said to go to the Dr. next door and she would write him one. Cost him $100 and about 2 minutes of his time but he went back to the pharmacist and bought about $600 worth of junk covering the whole spectrum (EPO, HGH, anabolics, test...). It really was that easy, all it took was money. The "Dr." next door was a woman physician who got tired of working clinics so she became a pusher and was making 20x the money as she was before. Most of their clients are body builders and high school football players.


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## Coolhand

And thus ends another adventure, with Lassie saving Timmy from the well.


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