# OUCH!- Sandbaggers called out



## beaker (Feb 2, 2005)

Kind of funny, but I would hate to be the guys featured in the auction:

Cyclocross-cross-upgrade-points-from-Verge-sandbaggers

edit: on second thought, it would at least mean that I had some legs and lungs this year...


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Pretty elaborate sarcasm.

Then again, if the stakes are "lame prizes", what difference does it make?


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

beaker said:


> Kind of funny, but I would hate to be the guys featured in the auction:
> 
> Cyclocross-cross-upgrade-points-from-Verge-sandbaggers
> 
> edit: on second thought, it would at least mean that I had some legs and lungs this year...


e-heckling... the final frontier.


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

Pretty damn funny. Ebay can be good for a laugh.

Have they not heard of mandatory upgrades at Verge? Crap, one top 10 finish and the Crusaders are out for blood. 5 wins!


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## jtferraro (Jun 28, 2002)

*Man, this is too funny...*

Wonder how long this auction will remain active. Anyway, I especially like the Q&A's!


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## myette10 (Jul 20, 2003)

Jeff - I've seen you race... you should bid early and often. 

Just kidding pal! 

You've got to think that each one of these guys will end up seeing this auction. None of them are registered for the final NE VERGE races in RI yet. It will be interesting to see what they sign up for and if the auction will lead to any additional heckling in Warwick should they race the 2/3 (again). 

I'm no fan of sandbagging but correct me if I'm wrong on this: if these 4 guys all upgrade, then the current 5-8 place finishers become the next round of sandbaggers? And when those 4 move up, places 9-13 are on the hot seat? I'm assuming of course that over time the finishing order is pretty much static. I make that assumption because I'm almost always 28th in my VERGE races assuming no mechanicals or crashes (big assumption). I'm never 4th one week, 33rd the next, 15th after that... Always right around the same spot if I can finish the race in reasonably good health. 

I could check crossresults.com to confirm my theory on the consistency of rider placing, but I'm protesting that site because they don't offer an "excuses" field to justify my poor ranking. 

Plus, what would we have to b!tch about if there were no sandbaggers in our races?!


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

The huge bummer for me is the auction ends at a time when I won't be at a computer. I am sure to get sniped.


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## roseyscot (Jan 30, 2005)

myette10 said:


> None of them are registered for the final NE VERGE races in RI yet. It will be interesting to see what they sign up for and if the auction will lead to any additional heckling in Warwick should they race the 2/3 (again).


Rumor has it they are protesting the final weekend because the promoters are not willing to up the start money for them...


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

milk just shot out of my nose.:lol:


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## rs728 (Nov 28, 2005)

[QUOTE=myette10
. None of them are registered for the final NE VERGE races in RI yet. It will be interesting to see what they sign up for and if the auction will lead to any additional heckling in Warwick should they race the 2/3 (again). 

None of them have to pre reg, they are guaranteed a front row start. We all know if these guys have not upgraded yet, with all the points they have, they will probably not upgrade for the last couple of races. Actually now that they have been called out, maybe they will finally upgrade, but I doubt it. 

Can we also be sure that these guys do not bid on their own points for extra points?


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## CouchingTiger (Mar 5, 2007)

Sandbagging sucks. I say that one should always race above your ability and be mediocre like both my wife and I are (oh man is she gonna be p!ssed if she reads this) 

-Couch


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## bmafia (Oct 30, 2007)

'Sandbagging' is a loose concept for sure and there will always be rebuttals. But our JP _routinely_ wins bike races. Who does that? Nys, Trebon, Compton, a couple others. I know lots and lots of very talented racers and they all take their lickings and nearly never step to the line with it being their race to lose. 

I certainly don't have anything personally against Peterson or his sandbagging (hell, I've been sucking it pretty hard in a lot races this year and it would take a lot of sandbagged levees to break before I even got into contention) and from the limited interaction I've had with him, he seems to be a very nice guy. But come on!

Peterson killed all who entered the expert short track race at MTB nats this year, such that all but the podium were pulled about 9 minutes into the 25 minute race. He has won every Verge 2/3 race he hasn't mechanicaled in. I'm pretty sure he started in the last row of the Canton B race just so he'd have a challenge to work to the front (just my interpretation). Pony it up and get a move on! 

Anyway, same ol sandbaggin' tirade, blah blah. I've got to go finish packing up my stuff to fly across the country to pick up my 37th place trophy out in Portland. In the recent vernacular of my buddy ZD, NICE IT UP! The seasons almost over. 

- PVB


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*do t hey get booed*

when they step on t he podium

maybe you guys could by some small snadbags and toss them at them

our series you get forced up if memory serves me right


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## kajukembo (Jan 20, 2003)

that is some supreme sandbagging. can't believe the other guys on the tutie frutie team allow their boy to bag so hard. they all need to step up and embrace the beat-down at the next level.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

I hear Lance is trying to get himself re-rated as a Cat 4 with a goal of going undefeated for the next 40 years. 

In competitive shooting one great performance can get you bumped a level, and it's a lot harder to sandbag during a shoulder to shoulder rapid fire contest.


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## CrossWorkOrange (Oct 16, 2006)

Hehe that was a pretty brilliant anti-sandbag campaign! Let's see a youtube one now.

Where is NEBRA in all of this? Aren't they responsible for automatically upgrading these guys when they hit a certain point total? They need to be active in all this hullabaloo. 

There's probably another handful of 3s behind these guys that may have earned their 2s and actually upgraded if it weren't for the sandbaggers causing a bottleneck.

(edit) - No prize money for anything other than the elite races IMO, just a UCI gift certificate to put towards a new license.

The last lap in the final Verge 2/3 race should have one special barrier, a bunch of sand bags stacked across the finish line. ;-b


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## roseyscot (Jan 30, 2005)

CrossWorkOrange said:


> Hehe that was a pretty brilliant anti-sandbag campaign! Let's see a youtube one now.
> 
> The last lap in the final Verge 2/3 race should have one special barrier, a bunch of sand bags stacked across the finish line. ;-b


Better yet, how about they ride with panniers and jersey pockets full of sand?


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

From what I understand a mandatory upgrade happens at 40 points. Only one of the riders called out satisfies that and most likely didn't start a race with over 40 points as he's just over it. Perhaps this is why the regional rep hasn't forced them up? Sure they could chose to upgrade, I would. But from how it looks it's a bit early to be pointing fingers and yelling 'sandbagger'


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

dfleck said:


> From what I understand a mandatory upgrade happens at 40 points. Only one of the riders called out satisfies that and most likely didn't start a race with over 40 points as he's just over it. Perhaps this is why the regional rep hasn't forced them up? Sure they could chose to upgrade, I would. But from how it looks it's a bit early to be pointing fingers and yelling 'sandbagger'


Sorry, but Petersen hit the 40 point limit back a few weeks ago (after winning Chainbiter 2/3s that was his 4th 2/3 win -> 40 points). I mean if you get to the mandatory upgrade limit in the SHORTEST TIME POSSIBLE by going UNDEFEATED... come on now.

Awerbuch is still riding Cat 3 races despite winning a 2/3 Verge race last year, he's currently got 51 Cat 3 upgrade points and another 20 points from last year that are no longer eligible because of the 12 month limit. I'd say he's been in mandatory upgrade land for quite some time now.

I agree with you about the other two guys.


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## roseyscot (Jan 30, 2005)

dfleck said:


> From what I understand a mandatory upgrade happens at 40 points. Only one of the riders called out satisfies that and most likely didn't start a race with over 40 points as he's just over it. Perhaps this is why the regional rep hasn't forced them up? Sure they could chose to upgrade, I would. But from how it looks it's a bit early to be pointing fingers and yelling 'sandbagger'


are you kidding? these guys have consistent top 5 finishes all season long in the biggest east coast races. granted they will be pack fodder in the elites, but they are clearly a step, or bike length ahead of anyone else in the B field.


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## Cruzer2424 (Feb 8, 2005)

beaker said:


> Kind of funny, but I would hate to be the guys featured in the auction:
> 
> Cyclocross-cross-upgrade-points-from-Verge-sandbaggers
> 
> edit: on second thought, it would at least mean that I had some legs and lungs this year...


dude. 2 of those guys race road in my collegiate conference. rofl.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

*One approach.*

Last season when it was clear early in a race that a B rider was going to absolutely crush the field, the announcers proceeded to heckle him merciously over the PA for the remainder of the race. He was summarily upgraded and forced to start the A race that day. He suffered for a while and ultimately DNF'd, but I give credit to the guy for taking his medicine.


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## Doc Hollywood (Mar 29, 2005)

*They Should All Have Jersey's like this one*










If any of you know Mark Abramson, he is a really good egg and passonate about cross and cycling. He wore this as a joke in a Verge Series cross race after he won the Killer B's Nationals in Baltimore a few years back.

It was pretty funny when he unveiled it at the start as he lined up with the Elite Men.

Doc


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

myette10 said:


> Jeff - I've seen you race... you should bid early and often.



Now that's funny!

Seriously though, your theory makes sense if the time gaps are the distinguishing characteristic. For me, when I see C's and B's winning by more than 2min over 2nd place, or there is roughly 1/2 a lap between the podium and say 4th/5th (~4min), then I think that is sandbagging given the length of the race. Said differently, if you did a histogram of finishing times, where are the outliers?

That said, the first time I applied for a Cat 3 CX upgrade, I was denied until our series director got involved. I was a bit shy on points, but in NJ they want you to move out of C's as soon as you raced a full season in it, or are consistently top-10. 

Once I got my upgrade, I then promptly got thrashed at USGP!


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## Derf (Jul 1, 2003)

*Maybe...*

I don't know these guys. But to play devil's advocate. If they are racing 2/3 and were 3's at the beginning of the season, then with their points, wouldn't they get upgraded to 2's. They would then race the same 2/3 race and have to get a bunch more points before going to 1's.

Maybe they are just following the upgrade rules. Or maybe they just suck...


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## quantum pro (Mar 1, 2005)

JP is a fast guy. Some of you are making it out like he's Sandbagging the Special Olympics. 
He decimated the expert 19-29 field at the beggining of the root66 series this year. He then upgraded to Semi-Pro and was still killing it. The reason he raced Expert at Nationals is because that was what he QUALIFIED for by the deadline date.
Hey did anybody bother to look at his results on usacycling.org? Last year he wasn't killing it and it's apparent he busted his @ss training this year and it shows.
So he's consistently winning by 30 seconds... Last year JBold was killing my field by minutes at every race...I wouldnt call him a Bagger.
In the end... It's only Cyclocross...not like he's taking food out of the mouths of hungry children.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

Here’s a question – say there’s a points series with prizes at the end in all classes - you start racing in B’s and win 2 races. If you move up you probably would be out of the running for overall series placings and prizes in either class since it is based on total points in a specific class. 

How do other series handle this? Prizes for A race only? System of points transfers? Just race the series in the class you started?


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## Ronsonic (Nov 11, 2004)

I'm with letting a guy finish a series and win whatever series prize there is in that class before forcing an upgrade, if he legitimately belonged in that class in the first place. Otherwise where are your series champs going to come from, guys who sandbagged in each race building points without getting attention? I don't think there's any question that a series or regional or national championship should dictate an upgrade for the next season.

As for why would someone complain about a 'bagger (tea or sand) collecting "lame prizes" they may look lame for the guy who belongs in 1-2, but are pretty nifty for a C or B guy.

Ron


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

d2p said:


> Here’s a question – say there’s a points series with prizes at the end in all classes - you start racing in B’s and win 2 races. If you move up you probably would be out of the running for overall series placings and prizes in either class since it is based on total points in a specific class.
> 
> How do other series handle this? Prizes for A race only? System of points transfers? Just race the series in the class you started?


Many series offer prizes for all catagorys as the promoter's objective is to get racers to attend all their events. Unfortunatly an effect of this is riders being incouraged not to upgrade in their hopes of a series prize. A catch 22. Either a sandbagger wins the prizes or a racer finishing consistantly around 6th or so does.


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## The Sundance Kid (Oct 2, 2007)

d2p said:


> Here’s a question – say there’s a points series with prizes at the end in all classes - you start racing in B’s and win 2 races. If you move up you probably would be out of the running for overall series placings and prizes in either class since it is based on total points in a specific class.
> 
> How do other series handle this? Prizes for A race only? System of points transfers? Just race the series in the class you started?


Here in Seattle I got asked to upgrade soon by the local USCF guy when I got close to 40 pts for the season (sitting in 3rd for the series never placed higher than 3rd). We do have graduated points that are supposed to get carried over, but I don't see them in my point total. This is actually how I would prefer it, as the gap in speed between the 3s and 1/2s is a large one, and I certainly should not be getting a callup. Series prizes for the non-A categories are by random drawing so that people don't have the prizes fall into their lap when the series leaders have to upgrade two thirds of the way through the season. My understanding is this system is made to not punish those who upgrade and not reward sandbaggers and that is how I would do it if I were running things.

It would only effect people who massively underestimate their true level, but in our series it is best 7 of 9 races, so in the scenario you mention, after two wins you could upgrade and still theoretically compete for the series in the higher cat. 

BTW Verge series has a leaders jersey for the leader of the Bs. That's so lame. They should have to wear that sandbagger jersey so that the casual fans will know who they need to be heckling. If you are leading any cx series that has reasonable participation past the midpoint of the season, you are a sandbagger unless you're racing As or Master As. How do you all feel about buying that sandbagger a series leader's jersey with your entry fees?


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## The Sundance Kid (Oct 2, 2007)

dfleck said:


> Many series offer prizes for all catagorys as the promoter's objective is to get racers to attend all their events. Unfortunatly an effect of this is riders being incouraged not to upgrade in their hopes of a series prize. A catch 22. Either a sandbagger wins the prizes or a racer finishing consistantly around 6th or so does.


This is exactly why I'm glad our prizes for Bs and Cs are by random drawing, must be present at the finals to win, possibly weighted by attendance, although actually I have no idea about that last point. The people who go to every race and are leading the Bs or the Cs are not the ones you need to bribe to show up. These people are not on the fence about cyclocross. I am all for tracking series points so you can battle back and forth with your closest competition over the course of the season, but the series leaders should get a pat on the back and if anything free or discount entry into their first race at a higher category. Swag for the series leaders in the Bs and Cs is a very bad idea. 

I've been on both sides of this so I hope that I can see all sides of the issue. This year I got upgraded out of 3rd place in our CX series. Two years ago I was "deprived" of my second ever biking win of any sort in our MTB series because the leader who was stomping the field every week was waiting til next season to upgrade because he was leading the series and there were prizes at the last race. 

If any promoters are reading this it is OK to reward one day results for larger races as long as your region has some kind of upgrade/sandbag police, but please don't reward sandbagging over the course of an entire season.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

quantum pro said:


> Last year JBold was killing my field by minutes at every race...I wouldnt call him a Bagger.
> In the end... It's only Cyclocross...not like he's taking food out of the mouths of hungry children.


J Bold rides Elite Masters, as in, the fastest level for his age group.

JP rides B men, as in, not the fastest level for his age group.

It's not a subtle difference.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

colinr said:


> J Bold rides Elite Masters, as in, the fastest level for his age group.
> 
> JP rides B men, as in, not the fastest level for his age group.
> 
> It's not a subtle difference.


I guess I could put up my own E-bay auction for guys like Bold,Hines....even Myette...about 65 guys combined...who beat me every weekend. They're all sand baggers!


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

the mayor said:


> I guess I could put up my own E-bay auction for guys like Bold,Hines....even Myette...about 65 guys combined...who beat me every weekend. They're all sand baggers!


Amen to that. Myette even injured himself on purpose so he wouldn't have to upgrade.


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## The Sundance Kid (Oct 2, 2007)

I'm going to have to disagree again. The three months of cyclcross is a long time to watch the same guys win over and over again. We have 18 races in western Washington alone (9 Seattle Series+6 stand alones+3 Bellingham Series). I would not want to see anyone go 18/18 or anything even remotely close to that just because they were leading the series points competition in the Seattle Series. Racing at your true ability level (rather than sandbagging) is a win-win. Allow me to illustrate how upgrading at midseason does yourself a favor and does your competitors a favor. 

1.) You get the benefit of trying the higher category when you're at or close to peak fitness rather than at the start of the season when you're fitness is builiding and you're more likely to get mentally discouraged if you get smoked. You will also probably get enthusiasticly cheered by your former competitors who you are now racing after. I've observed speed in most categories has a distribution that is similar to a so-called bell curve. By upgrading you are more likely to have multiple people at close to the same speed as you. The As and Bs overlap a good bit in speed and the Bs and Cs even more so. Therefore a top 3 racer in Bs or Cs will be somewhere within spitting distance of the middle of the pack when they upgrade. See Gripped's blog for a thorough analysis of this point. I find racing is more fun and mentally easier when I'm racing against someone so this is an important selling point for me. Even though I never finished higher than third in the Bs, because there aren't nearly as many fast Bs as mid pack Bs I was on my own for the majority of the race in about half of my races as a B this year. I've had close competition for both of the two A races I've done since I upgraded despite the fact that the fields were smaller. As a final bonus, you also get an extra 15-20 min of racing for the same price (Cs to Bs or Bs to As). 

2.) Your compatriot who has been battling for say 5th or 6th all year gets to race from the front which is a new and fun experience and involves different tactics. 

3.) Your compatriot who you have been lapping all year might be able to hold off the new race leaders and get an extra 8 minutes of racing for their $20.

Battling for the series lead is not a good reason to keep sandbagging. Prizes for one day races are okay if someone makes sandbaggers move up so that no one makes a habit out of it. Series prizes for non elite categories should be lotteries based on attendance ALWAYS for ALL forms of bike racing.


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## Cruzer2424 (Feb 8, 2005)

Doc Hollywood said:


> If any of you know Mark Abramson, he is a really good egg and passonate about cross and cycling.


ABRAMSON ROCKS!


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

Does anyone know if these guys raced this weekend and did they upgrade?


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## flanman (Jul 7, 2006)

The Sundance Kid said:


> I'm going to have to disagree again. The three months of cyclcross is a long time to watch the same guys win over and over again. We have 18 races in western Washington alone (9 Seattle Series+6 stand alones+3 Bellingham Series). I would not want to see anyone go 18/18 or anything even remotely close to that just because they were leading the series points competition in the Seattle Series. Racing at your true ability level (rather than sandbagging) is a win-win. Allow me to illustrate how upgrading at midseason does yourself a favor and does your competitors a favor.
> 
> 1.) You get the benefit of trying the higher category when you're at or close to peak fitness rather than at the start of the season when you're fitness is builiding and you're more likely to get mentally discouraged if you get smoked. You will also probably get enthusiasticly cheered by your former competitors who you are now racing after. I've observed speed in most categories has a distribution that is similar to a so-called bell curve. By upgrading you are more likely to have multiple people at close to the same speed as you. The As and Bs overlap a good bit in speed and the Bs and Cs even more so. Therefore a top 3 racer in Bs or Cs will be somewhere within spitting distance of the middle of the pack when they upgrade. See Gripped's blog for a thorough analysis of this point. I find racing is more fun and mentally easier when I'm racing against someone so this is an important selling point for me. Even though I never finished higher than third in the Bs, because there aren't nearly as many fast Bs as mid pack Bs I was on my own for the majority of the race in about half of my races as a B this year. I've had close competition for both of the two A races I've done since I upgraded despite the fact that the fields were smaller. As a final bonus, you also get an extra 15-20 min of racing for the same price (Cs to Bs or Bs to As).
> 
> ...


Excellent points. I wholeheartedly agree.


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## myette10 (Jul 20, 2003)

colinr said:


> Amen to that. Myette even injured himself on purpose so he wouldn't have to upgrade.


I need to upgrade? I was thinking about sliding down to the B race to see what it was like at the front of a brace.

Yeah that's right, I said "down" to the B race. bring it.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

myette10 said:


> see what it was like at the front of a brace.


I would have though after this fall you'd have had enough of braces.

And I think the ebay allstars will keep you from seeing too much of the front of a B race


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## allons-y (Nov 15, 2006)

colinr said:


> I would have though after this fall you'd have had enough of braces.
> 
> And I think the ebay allstars will keep you from seeing too much of the front of a B race


watch your mouth,

myette could literally eat you alive on a cross bike. and then have room for me, and a few more....when he raced B's at canton, he did exactly that.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

allons-y said:


> watch your mouth,
> 
> myette could literally eat you alive on a cross bike. and then have room for me, and a few more....when he raced B's at canton, he did exactly that.


Well, that is why I avoided making any claims about my own ability while trash talking.


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## myette10 (Jul 20, 2003)

colinr said:


> I would have though after this fall you'd have had enough of braces.


Classic! Typo of the year! It is hard to type with this thing on ya know...

Anyway, I shouldn't cast dispersions towards NE B races or racers, and I don't want to cause a fracture in the blogosphere either. Sometimes I tend to use quick wit as a crutch to prop up my generally low self esteem, and when I should be immobilizing my mouth.

PDX race report coming soon BTW - Saturday was sticky, hard and slow, Sunday was sloppy, hard and fast.


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## Ronsonic (Nov 11, 2004)

So the B guy who's running mid pack all year, busts his ass in the off-season and shows up next season strong as hell is now bagging it because he wants a trophy for his efforts?

I'm not going to argue that it makes sense to have championships and prizes in the lower tiers. But that IS the present reality. Of course a "C" National Championship Jersey is absurd. But so long as there is one, the rider going after it isn't to blame. 

Ron


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## roseyscot (Jan 30, 2005)

Ronsonic said:


> So the B guy who's running mid pack all year, busts his ass in the off-season and shows up next season strong as hell is now bagging it because he wants a trophy for his efforts?
> 
> I'm not going to argue that it makes sense to have championships and prizes in the lower tiers. But that IS the present reality. Of course a "C" National Championship Jersey is absurd. But so long as there is one, the rider going after it isn't to blame.
> 
> Ron


what came first, the chicken or the egg? it doesn't matter. these guys are the chickens. it is not like they were mid pack racers last year. you're talking about guys in the top 10 all of last season as well as top 10 at nationals. you're also talking about guys with impressive race resumes outside of just 'cross. they're strong riders, no doubt.

yes promoters are encouraging sandbagging by continuing to give prizes to amaterur winners but that doesn't make it right for people to sandbag their way through an entire, or even the majority of a season. enjoy your sandbaggery for a race or two, then move on up and let some other folks contest the victory.


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## SheFly (Sep 24, 2007)

CouchingTiger said:


> Sandbagging sucks. I say that one should always race above your ability and be mediocre like both my wife and I are (oh man is she gonna be p!ssed if she reads this)
> 
> -Couch



Guess you will be sleeping on the couch tonight.... I can't believe you are calling my results mediocre!!!!! I've even won money this season.

OK. Truth told, I am mediocre. But did you have to tell everyone else?????

SheFly (aka MrsCouch)


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

SheFly said:


> Guess you will be sleeping on the couch tonight.... I can't believe you are calling my results mediocre!!!!! I've even won money this season.
> 
> OK. Truth told, I am mediocre. But did you have to tell everyone else?????
> 
> SheFly (aka MrsCouch)


Oh snap! I was waiting the day when someone's missus would finally get wind of their husband's foolery. Well worth the wait


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## The Sundance Kid (Oct 2, 2007)

Looks like a little bit of confusion here. Just to clarify, there is no B national championship. They have a few different B races at Nationals, but the winner doesn't get a jersey and they aren't champion of anything (It's true, look it up here). They just get to say they won a well attended B race no different from Gloucester or Starcrossed or the USGPs, etc. Good job and all that, but better move up to the A's for your next race.


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

The Sundance Kid said:


> Looks like a little bit of confusion here. Just to clarify, there is no B national championship.


Sure there is...
Check out Mark's jersey to prove it.










This was classic by the way. Our jaws dropped when we first saw it.


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## ttm166 (Sep 14, 2007)

A friend of mine won the B's in '05 and did recieve a jersey. It was a cool stars and stripes wool jersey. The coolest part about it was what it said on it - SANDBAGGER.


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## mtp1234 (Apr 21, 2005)

I can side with these riders in one perspective and that is the following. USA Cycling takes the money from you for your upgrade to Cat 1 and then it expires 4 1/2 weeks later on 12/31/07?

If a license did not expire within weeks maybe this would not be such an issue. But what do we know? I don't even renew the licence until march/april for whatever the full price is that year and it expires eight/nine months later.

Maybe if the upgrade addition fee could be removed from next seasons renewal charge, racers would be more likely to do it sooner.
Mike


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## The Sundance Kid (Oct 2, 2007)

In my experience promoters let you race up a category in cross regardless of what it says on your license. Has anyone had problems with this or is this strictly theoretical?


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## radioflyer (Jan 2, 2006)

Well, since it's Christmas Day and I'm sitting at work, I figured I'd set myself up for a slam, since this whole sandbagging issue has me perplexed. Here's a situation I'm currently in:

My background: Mediocre B 'cross racer. Finished 2nd in the Bs at my local series, but I'm total pack fodder in Portland Master Bs.

I'm now three races into a 5-race 'cross series in Northern California. I'm again racing Bs. First race: 2nd Second race: 2nd Of the 42 people in the Bs at the second race, I lapped maybe 5 of them. Afterwards, I start to hear the sandbagger comments from my friends. (I used to live in Nor Cal and know most of the competition, so they heckle me)

My initial reaction: I haven't won a race yet! Why would people feel I need to upgrade to A's?

After the second race, the race promoter comes up to me to congratulate me and to tell me that he thinks they're going to give away a new Redline 'cross bike to the 'C' winner, and a custom fixie to the B-series winner. I'm a little shocked at such big prizes for a small series, but excited also.

So... the third race was Sunday the 23rd. I came back from a horrible (LeMans) start to pass 14 guys and take the win by about 25 seconds. The only person I lapped was on a damn unicycle, so it's not like I'm riding away from everyone. I went on to ride 3 laps in the A's race afterwards just for some extra riding (62 degree weather helped my motivation!) When I pulled the plug I was second from last, though honestly not giving it my all either.

There are now two races left, and I'm starting to feel the sandbag pressure a bit. On one hand, there are actually a few of us competing for the B-Cat series win, with no clearcut standout among us. And the prize on offer was a prize that I didn't know about until I had placed well in a couple races, so it's not like I intentionally dropped down to have a shot at it. On the other hand, I could (should?) move up to the A's and finish near or at the back. Doing the latter would obviously result in giving up any chance at winning the bike.

Here's my conundrum... At what point am I the sandbagger but the person finishing right behind me isn't? At what point do I just essentially give the bike to the next-best finisher?

I agree totally that series prizes encourage people to not move up, but that wasn't my decision to make. It was the race promoter's call.

I'm just trying to race people of similar ability. The fact that I have placed in each race doesn't make me guilty of sandbagging. It just makes me among the fastest of this grouping. No matter who moves up a category, SOMEONE will still be the fastest of the group, right?

Thoughts? Slams? Advice?


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## seahuston (Sep 2, 2005)

I say keep racing in the B's for the season, try and win the bike and forget about the haters. If they are so upset that they cant win they should drop down to the B's. Unless the winner is elite in europe one person will make some kind of accustation. Cross is fun and winning races, or at least fighting for a win is even more fun, someones got to win the race, why shouldnt it be you? (someone also has to be last...)
Merry Christmas


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

radioflyer said:


> No matter who moves up a category, SOMEONE will still be the fastest of the group, right?


Not necessarily. If the field is of similar ability, then SOMEONE DIFFERENT will be the fastest of the group each day. If a non-elite field lines up with a clear favorite who is expected to win, that guy should move up.

Here's what I would say -- anyone who wins more than a few B races needs to move up. If the guys at the top of the B fields you're in are trading off who wins, then either you're all sandbaggers or none of you are. If one guys in winning most or all of them, then he's the sandbagger. If your times would place you above the bottom 3rd of A's, then you're all sandbaggers.

Just because you're not winning (aka sandbagging the hardest) doesn't mean you're not sandbagging, but it does give you a decent defense against the charge. I really wouldn't worry about it -- there's really only two situations that everyone seems to agree are sandbagging:

1) Winning many non-elite races in a short time span by a large margin (Peterson, from the original post)
2) Racing at a lower level (3/4) when you have recently won at a higher level (2/3) (Awerbuch from the original post)

Also, are these USCF races? If so, how many upgrade points are you currently carrying?


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## radioflyer (Jan 2, 2006)

There aren't any points of any kind on offer at this series. Anyway, points are silly anyway. My finishes in southern oregon (against 25 people) gain me enough points to be ranked among the best B-category racers in Oregon, despite the fact that my best finish at a Cross Crusade race is like 41st. There's even one guy who comes down from like 4 hours away just to farm the points on offer because he only has 3 guys in his category and he wants to look good on the yearly stat sheet. Whatever.

And I can almost guarantee that I would be toward the back of the A race for sure. Not dead last (since I can bike handle and mount/dismount better than some of the really fit roadies who can't/don't ride off road), but close.

And I will try to win the series in Bs I think. Bike or no bike. It'd feel goo to outrace someone. Of course, I'd never even THINK to race Bs at that series next year. I'd do A's absolutely.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

radioflyer said:


> There aren't any points of any kind on offer at this series. Anyway, points are silly anyway. My finishes in southern oregon (against 25 people) gain me enough points to be ranked among the best B-category racers in Oregon, despite the fact that my best finish at a Cross Crusade race is like 41st.


Sounds like OBRA points are silly, then. Anyway, I was talking about upgrade points, not ranking points, and I guess OBRA doesn't have those. Back east, upgrade points are the closest thing we have to rules about sandbagging so they would be relevant to the discussion.



radioflyer said:


> Of course, I'd never even THINK to race Bs at that series next year. I'd do A's absolutely.


Then you're not a sandbagger in my book.


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## radioflyer (Jan 2, 2006)

From what I hear, the Cross Crusade people are pretty good about forcing folks to upgrade. Then again, the races are all long over by the time I get to the finish line, so I wouldn't even recognize the faces of the fast folks from my category.

Merry Christmas


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

radioflyer said:


> Well, since it's Christmas Day and I'm sitting at work, I figured I'd set myself up for a slam, since this whole sandbagging issue has me perplexed. Here's a situation I'm currently in:
> 
> My background: Mediocre B 'cross racer. Finished 2nd in the Bs at my local series, but I'm total pack fodder in Portland Master Bs.
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? This is easy. You didn't enter for the prize. You didn't know about the prize. So win the race and decline the prize, or if you don't want to "give" it to the second place finisher, ask the organizer to denote it to one of those groups that provides bikes as transportation to the less fortunate (or maybe the poor guy racing on a unicycle), or if you can't stand to see a homeless person on it, ask the organizer to sell it and donate all funds to the Lance Armstrong Foundation. 

There are three reasons to do one of the above-

-if you want to be an old school gentleman and consider prizes unseemly
-want to put yourself above the fray 
-think maybe the critics are on to something

On the other hand maybe your friends are just yanking your chain.


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

If you're thinking you might be a sandbagger, you probably are. If people are shouting it out... it's even more likely.

You got your win, move on.
It's nice to upgrade when you still have the chance to race that season to squlech any fears you can't hang with the next group up.

then again, i just upgraded to the 2s in hopes i'll be a bit faster next year...


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