# Specialized 1999 S-Works M4 DEAD



## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

You were good for the miles I rode you. 

Too bad this tiny little crack made you crack.

You will be missed:










































LOL such a small bump in the road, and BAM, frame cracks like nothing. Pathetic. Very disappointed.

I loved this frame, but I guess it couldn't take the massive earthquake style 15mm road gaps I love to nail.

In all honesty, it was a terrific road bike frame. Pretty sure no warranty and no help from the big S on this one. 

It was good while it lasted...I guess 










Definitely feeling sad/mad/irritated/ and most of all, just plain disappointment.



This really sucks.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

I was seriously just biking along, get out of the saddle for this tiny bump I see, and bammmm, my rear wheel slows WAY down. I unclip and hop off, thinking I have a flat, and no, my wheel is bent in. Wow did that small dip really cause me to bend a wheel, wowow! 

Nope, after inspection, that would be my frame that cracked. On such a small pathetic bump. How sad..


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Assuming you're the original owner (and even if you're not), I'd be very surprised if Spec didn't do right by you on this.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

It was probably just the straw that broke a very mighty bikes back. 11 years. Wow. I think that bike did great for you.


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## f3rg (May 11, 2008)

11-year-old AL frame, so I'm not surprised it cracked; even the highest quality stuff can only take so much abuse and wear. Just buy a new frame and you'll be back in business.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Assuming you're the original owner (and even if you're not), I'd be very surprised if Spec didn't do right by you on this.


Seriously? My friend was the original owner, sold it to me but has no receipt. I'm the 2nd owner, and only got to put ~1500mi on it in 10mo. 

Link? Telephone #? Tips?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> Seriously? My friend was the original owner, sold it to me but has no receipt. I'm the 2nd owner, and only got to put ~1500mi on it in 10mo.
> 
> Link? Telephone #? Tips?


Get your friend to take it back to an LBS that is a Specialized dealer, preferably one that has a good reputation for customer service. Ask them to take a look at it and ask what they can do about it. I would explain what happened in terms of the bump that finally caused the frame to fail, but omit the second owner part. Lead the conversation towards having the Specialized Rep inspect it and a warranty replacement - a new Allez Comp frame-set would do just fine. The missing receipt should not be a big issue, and your friend should be able to provide verbal evidence of where the bike was bought and its history. The warranty only applies to the original owner and if you went in yourself and mentioned you bought the bike from a friend, you would probably be SOL. I think your chances on an 11 year old frame are 50/50, but worth a try.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Lifetime warranty. I've got a '92 S-Works M2.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

*Integrity is in Short Suppy These Days*



ukbloke said:


> I would explain what happened in terms of the bump that finally caused the frame to fail, but omit the second owner part


Falsely stating the fact the damage occurred when ridden by the original owner hurts the honest consumer. Warranties have limitations for a reason. A company shouldn’t have to shell out for a replacement on an 11 year old frame under these circumstances. A warranty is a contract in place to protect both parties.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

I called a friend who works at a specialized dealer, and he said if it was highest end road back then, you get highest end road now. Which would be what, a tarmac? I don't anticipate that happening at all.

If he takes it back as the original owner, where is integrity lost? He gets his new bike for one that failed. Then he gives it to me because I'm such a great friend. 

ukbloke, why would they be 50/50? If the warranty is indeed lifetime as some of these folks imply, wouldn't it be covered?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> ukbloke, why would they be 50/50? If the warranty is indeed lifetime as some of these folks imply, wouldn't it be covered?


Because the warranty is for materials and manufacturing defects, and they determine what they think is the root cause. I think you are shooting a little high for a Tarmac frame ...

As to integrity, I didn't suggest, or intend to suggest, that anyone should tell a lie. For example, I didn't say that the OP should pretend to be the original owner. I think the phrase I am looking for is "economical with the truth". If you read the warranty it doesn't say anything about who was riding the bike at the point of failure. I do agree that it is an integrity call.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm not shooting for anything, that's just what I was told. I'm gunna jb weld this sucker together and duct tape it for good measure (just kidding!).

I'd be more than happy to get anything out of this. Hopefully an allez frame isn't heavier than the older sworks though.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

Lifetime means 5yrs for a bike afaik.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

That makes no sense. It would be a 5 year warranty. If they refer to lifetime as "life" of a bike, and put that at five years, that's a joke..


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

warranty period is lifetime. 

but you have to have the original receipt (and be the original owner). especially in the case of an 11yr old bike.

want to do the right thing? take it to a S dealer, be straight up, and ask if they can help. when they tell you "no, sorry," you say "well how much would a new alu frame set me back?"

when they tell you that an E5 Allez frame is $550, order one. Original owner, warranty, shop makes money, and more importantly, they don't think that you're a douche bag for getting pissed at them when you're denied warranty.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

I would not buy a new Allez frame, especially not for 550. I'll see what the original owner can do and see if he can handle the warranty.

What does specy make these days that isn't carbon?


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## f3rg (May 11, 2008)

I don't have an issue with your friend taking it back and not telling them there's been a second owner. Seriously, WTF difference does it make if it broke under your friend's arse or under yours? It's still a broken frame, and if they're willing to replace it, then go for it.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> *Seriously?* My friend was the original owner, sold it to me but has no receipt. I'm the 2nd owner, and only got to put ~1500mi on it in 10mo.
> 
> Link? Telephone #? Tips?


Yes, seriously. Whether you decide to let your friend bring the bike in for inspection or you're straight up with Specialized I think they'll do right by you or your friend. I could be wrong, but from everything I've heard or read, Specialized is hard to beat for warranty/ customer assistance, and they have a vested interest in keeping you in the 'family'.

Whichever way you decide to go with this, pls keep us updated.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

redmr2_man said:


> I would not buy a new Allez frame, especially not for 550. I'll see what the original owner can do and see if he can handle the warranty.
> 
> What does specy make these days that isn't carbon?


The Allez. Same geometry as the Tarmac. 

Don't get your hopes up on the warranty. While Specialized is badass, and their warranty department is very nice, there's no real incentive to give away frames when they don't need to. It's not making them money, nor making the dealer any money. Might get a crash replacement deal, but now manufacturers are starting to want a receipt for that (i.e. Cannondale). 

Of course, all of this is tossed out the window if you become "that" customer. and "that" customer will rarely, if ever, be better off in the long run.

--edit--

I say all this because I handle warranty deals at my shop. I know what you can get away with, and what you can't.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

People buy brand new specs because of stuff like standing strongly behind warranty. Its a HUGE marketing tool to do stuff like that. Costs them whatever their internal cost for the frame is, gets great publicity.. cheaper than taking out a magazine ad im sure. 

Why are so many people getting butthurt about it? His friend is the original owner, theres nothing in the warranty that says its void if your friend is riding the bike. If the original owner brings it to the shop, frankly it would be shady if spec did anything but honor a lifetime warranty. 

Im pretty sure no one covers labor past a year or so, some dont cover warranty at all. If you wanted to keep the new warranty you'd be paying all costs to the shop (assembly etc). id expect to be out at least a couple hundred even with a free replacement frame.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

-dustin said:


> The Allez. Same geometry as the Tarmac.
> 
> Don't get your hopes up on the warranty. While Specialized is badass, and their warranty department is very nice, *there's no real incentive to give away frames* when they don't need to. It's not making them money, nor making the dealer any money. Might get a crash replacement deal, but now manufacturers are starting to want a receipt for that (i.e. Cannondale).
> 
> Of course, all of this is tossed out the window if you become "that" customer. and "that" customer will rarely, if ever, be better off in the long run.


Of course there is. That one frame that costs them next to nothing might get them a number of sales when the OP relays his experiences to others - like us.

IMO it's simply practicing good business practices using some long term vision. But I do agree that it wouldn't be wise to get ones hopes up. I also think there might be a crash replacement type of incentive presented, especially if the OP presents a more accurate assessment of the events.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

People buy brand new specs because of stuff like standing strongly behind warranty. Its a HUGE marketing tool to do stuff like that. Costs them whatever their internal cost for the frame is, gets great publicity.. cheaper than taking out a magazine ad im sure. 

Why are so many people down on that? His friend is the original owner, theres nothing in the warranty that says its void if your friend is riding the bike. If the original owner brings it to the shop, frankly it would be shady if spec did anything but honor a lifetime warranty. 

Im pretty sure no one covers labor past a year or so, some dont cover warranty at all. If you wanted to keep the new warranty you'd be paying all costs to the shop (assembly etc). id expect to be out at least a couple hundred even with a free replacement frame.


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

hope it works out for you! keep us updated... specialized is top notch when it comes to customer service and they stand by their product too. i've had a tarmac pro and a pump replaced when the frame cracked and the pump stopped pumping.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

Awesome, I'll definitely be keeping you guys updated. I'm getting my hopes up a tad with all these stories of new frames and stuff, but I'm trying to be realistic here and if I don't get anything, it's not the end of the road. I'll figure something out. Allez, Tarmac, or even crash replacement pricing (if I can afford anything they offer -college student w/ no job- ) would be better than nothing.

Thanks for all the help


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

Its at the lbs. Incredibly light frame!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> Its at the lbs. Incredibly light frame!


Just curious how you handled the 'original owner' issue. Feel free to plead the 5th.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

what issue? haha! 

We're gunna call the outside sales rep for specy in the next week and tell him everything.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> what issue? haha!
> 
> We're gunna call the outside sales rep for specy in the next week and tell him everything.


In that case I'm predicting they'll offer you some sort of a crash replacement type deal. Most likely an Allez frameset at a reduced price.

Disclaimer: I've been wrong before.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

I like really really don't want an Allez. Really.

lol


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> I like really really don't want an Allez. Really.
> 
> lol


Well, I'm sure they'll happily sell you a Tarmac or Roubaix, but it'll cost you (a lot) more.

Again, I could be wrong. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm a poor college student. Any buy-in option, even by a company that is happily warrantying my frame with low crash-replacement pricing, is most likely more than I have.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> I'm a poor college student. Any buy-in option, even by a company that is happily warrantying my frame with low crash-replacement pricing, is most likely more than I have.


Understood, but if they work with you and put forth a good faith effort, IMO even if you can't take advantage of the offer, they at least tried. Besides, maybe they'll take pity on you.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

That would be nice. I don't expect it though.

It's a waiting game now.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

7 days and not a word. I don't really care how long it takes, if the warranty actually goes somewhere, but the waiting game is killin me!

How long does this usually take? Less than a month?

Thanks guys!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> 7 days and not a word. I don't really care how long it takes, if the warranty actually goes somewhere, but the waiting game is killin me!
> 
> How long does this usually take? Less than a month?
> 
> Thanks guys!


I have no expereince with warranty claims, but if it's been over a week why not call the LBS asking them to contact the rep for a status of where your claim stands. Can't hurt, and might serve to push things along.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

no warranty frame. 

they offered crash replacement, but I can't afford any of it.

Guess lifetime means........not lifetime.


I definitely will not be buying a Specialized in the future.


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## iebobo (Jun 23, 2006)

Just curious...what did they offer you?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> no warranty frame.
> 
> *they offered crash replacement*, but I can't afford any of it.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that, but remember, the lifetime warranty is to the original owner. From what you've posted previously, you were upfront with Specialized that you weren't the original owner. 

That given, whether or not you could afford to take advantage of it, I think their offer was a fair one - likely better than you would have fared with some other brands. As always, YMMV.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

no, the original owner took it back and warrantied it himself. Still got nowhere.


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## pdainsworth (Jun 6, 2004)

redmr2_man said:


> no, the original owner took it back and warrantied it himself. Still got nowhere.


Great. So you intentionally misled them then get pissed when they don't offer you a free replacement that you didn't deserve anyway. That makes a lot of sense.

BTW, did your buddy have proof that he was the original owner?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> no, the original owner took it back and warrantied it himself. Still got nowhere.


I think pdainsworth has a point, but beyond that, did they offer an explanation of why they would only do a crash replacement?


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

how did i mislead them? had the orig owner take his bike back? If I was riding it or he was riding it, or santa claus was on it, it shouldn't break at the weld.

No, do you keep 12 year old receipts? 

I looked up a few specy warranty threads, and it seems like common sense gives way to nutswinging. Looks like this thread will end that way too. 

:waits for more nitpicking:


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> I think pdainsworth has a point, but beyond that, did they offer an explanation of why they would only do a crash replacement?


none at all.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> how did i mislead them? had the orig owner take his bike back? If I was riding it or he was riding it, or santa claus was on it, it shouldn't break at the weld.
> 
> No, do you keep 12 year old receipts?
> 
> ...


IMO no one's nitpicking, and while I sense your frustration (and to a point, sympathize) in all honesty, thus far you're being sketchy on the details.

As far as archived threads re: Specs warranty service. Since I've joined this forum, the vast majority of posters made out very well when dealing with Specialized. Nothing is 100%, but in the interest of fairness do some research in some other manufacturers forums (like... Trek?), then make a judgement call. 

Ok, so no receipt is pretty black and white, but NO explanation as to_ why _they weren't honoring the replacement policy? That (IMO) is unlikely.

So what DID they offer, specifically?


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

Crash replacement pricing on frames/bikes that will be sent to me in a few days. 

I'd like an explanation as well.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> Crash replacement pricing on frames/bikes that will be sent to me in a few days.
> 
> I'd like an explanation as well.


It's obviously your call, but when you get that info I (for one) would appreciate your sharing it here. It may help others in the future.

As far as the explanation, if your friend is the one being offered the special pricing, I think he should pursue that.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

From what I've read on here, and among friends, the pricing isn't that great. Obviously I haven't seen it myself though.

Of course I'll update the thread. I'd really like a quality reason as well. I'm surprised they didn't offer even an allez. Local lbs has a 2010 allez with full sora and then a tiagra rear d...for 599$.

What's cost on the frame, lol 59 dollars?!

The 2011 frameset is 550 though, and entry level complete bikes are in the 800's (msrp)


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> IMO no one's nitpicking, and while I sense your frustration (and to a point, sympathize) in all honesty, thus far you're being sketchy on the details.


the bottom line facts are: 

1. the original owner took it in for warranty. 
2. he was denied a replacement frame. 

I dont think anything is shady about that, it was a legitimate try. longshot, yeah.. but not sketch. 

only real question is why, and im sure its because the receipt. the description says no receipt, no warranty. 

edit: I bet one could make an argument that 11 years is beyond the "life" of any aluminum frame, as its a material with an inherent limited durability.. much like a set of brake pads but longer term. kind of a weasel'y out, but if they wanted to play legal hardball with the warranty theres tons of ways to duck out. 

i think spec would need to account for the loss of what would be a $3000 frameset. It would be hard for them to justify doing so without some kind of hard documentation.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Any chance that the broken drop-out could be replaced/repaired?


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## ausdb (May 20, 2009)

*Well you asked for it.....*



redmr2_man said:


> how did i mislead them? had the orig owner take his bike back? If I was riding it or he was riding it, or santa claus was on it, it shouldn't break at the weld.
> 
> No, do you keep 12 year old receipts?
> 
> ...


Have you actually bothered to have a good read through their warranty document? from what you have been posting I would guess not, but I suggest you have a read of these three paragraphs a bit more closeley:

LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY ON BICYCLE FRAMES AND FRAMESETS
In particular the bit about what the warranty actually covers, "that the bicycle frame or frameset when *new* is free of defective materials and workmanship"

ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS
Especially the bit about "wear and tear"

And finally the one titled 
USEFUL PRODUCT LIFE CYCLE

At the same time as you read about useful product lifecycle do some internet searching on the following terms: "aluminum fatigue limit". This will help you understand that aluminum does not last forever and does fatigue and then finally crack and why after so many takeoff and landing cycles they retire aircraft/airframes. Once you have done all of that then go and ask around at a few LBS's what they think the reasonable lifespan is for a high end (it was an S-works) aluminium racing frame?

Once you have done all of the above, then sit down and take a deep breath and think.
"Do I now honestly believe that a crack which developed in an 11 year old aluminium frame is really a result of defective materials or workmanship?"

I would consider this to be "Common sense" rather than "Nutswinging" but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What I do think is sad is peoples expectations that everything is covered by warranty. Wake and smell the whatever it is that gives you pleasure because it's not and people like you are the ones who screw it up for people who *have real warranty issues * with products.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

TomH said:


> the bottom line facts are:
> 
> 1. the original owner took it in for warranty.
> 2. he was denied a replacement frame.
> ...


To clarify, my 'sketchy on the details' remark was related to the OP, not Specialized. I'm not faulting him, because he may not be aware of those details, but it's difficult to imagine that the warranty claim was refused 'out of hand' without an explanation from the rep or LBS. 

As far as 'knowing' it was because of a lack of a receipt, while I agree it's a good bet, we don't _know_ that was the specific reason the claim was rejected.

I'm not judging the rights or wrongs here, but FWIW, I agree that given its finite fatigue life, 10+ years on an alu frame is pretty much its lifecycle.


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

why not fill us in on what the crash replacement offer was? 

if that frame (which is the upgrade AL from from the higher end allez model) has a $550 msrp, what did they offer to charge you for it under "crash replacement" ?


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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

ukbloke said:


> Any chance that the broken drop-out could be replaced/repaired?


Not in any kind of economically viable way vs. what the frame is worth. Not to mention its proprietary aluminum so who know what it takes to weld it and heat treat it properly.

Just want to mention that many industry people think 5 years is the logical fatigue life for aluminum frames ridden regularly. So, 11 years is great. Specialized should be applauded for that longevity.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

It is an interesting dichotomy to have a "limited lifetime warranty" (I do appreciate the word "limited") with a catch-all "useful product life" clause. This means that after a certain amount of time the warranty claim is entirely at Specialized's discretion (you can argue that that is always the case), and the customer has essentially no recourse if rejected.

Let's presume that the warranty claim was rejected due to "wear and tear" or end of "useful product life". The frame failed at the aluminium drop-out. As far as I am aware all Specialized bikes, excluding probably the occasional steel frame, have aluminium drop-outs and some on recent S-Works models are hollow too. So if we get a failure in the drop-out on any of these bikes after say 10 years, is it reasonable for Specialized to reject the warranty claim?

Also, what is the reasonable "useful product life" of a carbon frame anyway?

(Not trying to provoke an argument, just curious about this.)


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

ausdb said:


> Have you actually bothered to have a good read through their warranty document? from what you have been posting I would guess not, but I suggest you have a read of these three paragraphs a bit more closeley:
> 
> LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY ON BICYCLE FRAMES AND FRAMESETS
> In particular the bit about what the warranty actually covers, "that the bicycle frame or frameset when *new* is free of defective materials and workmanship"
> ...


Then don't call it a lifetime warranty. Limited lifetime warranty is shady, and blaming alum fatigue seems like a cop out, as TomH said. If it snaps at the weld, they should fix it. That's all I'm saying.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

roscoe said:


> why not fill us in on what the crash replacement offer was?
> 
> if that frame (which is the upgrade AL from from the higher end allez model) has a $550 msrp, what did they offer to charge you for it under "crash replacement" ?


as I said earlier, they haven't given me pricing yet.


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## mcfly (Feb 19, 2004)

my M4 broke in the same place back in 2001 specialized replaced it with a 2002 e5 s-works frame..it is a design flaw..alot of them broke there.


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## groupbmonster (Nov 18, 2009)

mcfly said:


> it is a design flaw..alot of them broke there.


OH SNAP......

BTW if you look under reviews there is one about welds breaking in the exact same spot...drive side dropout.

If this is a problem they knew about and were giving out warranty frames for it changes the whole deal.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

mcfly said:


> my M4 broke in the same place back in 2001 specialized replaced it with a 2002 e5 s-works frame..it is a design flaw..alot of them broke there.


wow, did they admit it was a design flaw? Wouldn't happen to still have that paper laying around would ya? That could definitely help me!



groupbmonster said:


> OH SNAP......
> 
> BTW if you look under reviews there is one about welds breaking in the exact same spot...drive side dropout.
> 
> If this is a problem they knew about and were giving out warranty frames for it changes the whole deal.


Yeah, if this is a common problem, that makes this even more pathetic.

Guess everyone gets one but me


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

groupbmonster said:


> OH SNAP......
> 
> BTW *if you look under reviews there is one about welds breaking in the exact same spot*...drive side dropout.
> 
> If this is a problem they knew about and were giving out warranty frames for it changes the whole deal.


How about substantiating your claim with a link. I looked through the reviews and found no such incident.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

mcfly said:


> *my M4 broke in the same place back in 2001 *specialized replaced it with a 2002 e5 s-works frame..it is a design flaw..alot of them broke there.


What year was the frame that Spec replaced?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

ukbloke said:


> It is an interesting dichotomy to have a "limited lifetime warranty" (I do appreciate the word "limited") with a catch-all "useful product life" clause. This means that after a certain amount of time the warranty claim is entirely at Specialized's discretion (you can argue that that is always the case), and the customer has essentially no recourse if rejected.
> 
> Let's presume that the warranty claim was rejected due to "wear and tear" or end of "useful product life". *The frame failed at the aluminium drop-out. As far as I am aware all Specialized bikes, excluding probably the occasional steel frame, have aluminium drop-outs and some on recent S-Works models are hollow too. So if we get a failure in the drop-out on any of these bikes after say 10 years, is it reasonable for Specialized to reject the warranty claim?*
> 
> ...


Because the dropouts are bonded on CF frames, I think the repair would be relatively straightforward. The bonding material would be softened under controlled heat, the broken dropout removed, the area cleaned, prepped and the new dropout bonded in place.

Also, considering the number of assorted bonded CF/ alu components that are out on the roads nowadays, indications are that the state of the art results in a pretty reliable (and long lasting) process.

I don't know the answer to your last question re: CF's useful product cycle, but I do know that between steel, CF and alu, only alu alloys have a finite fatigue life (failing quickly).


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## groupbmonster (Nov 18, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> How about substantiating your claim with a link. I looked through the reviews and found no such incident.


http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/2...-road-bike/specialized/PRD_18548_1610crx.aspx

the review at the bottom



REVIEW said:


> Summary:
> I really dug this bike, BUT and it is a big BUT the frames don't prove to hold up. I received my S-works as a warranty replacement November 99 for the Allez comp I had purchased June of 99. I snapped the drop out on the drive side on the Allez comp after less than 6 months of riding. Specialized stepped right up with out question and upgraded me to an M4 S-works, Kudos to them for their prompt service in that regard. I received my S-works within 3 weeks, I built the bike up and fell in love with the ride, until today. Once again, the frame snapped at the drop out on the drive side. I haven't heard of any other frames breaking neither has my LBS, but now that I've broken two specialized frames in the identical spot, it seems quite more than a coincidence. I'm a farely heavy and aggressive rider, I spend most of time riding one speeds and have a tendency to really torque big gears, maybe this is the cause, so if you ride in a similiar manner you may want to think twice about purchasing this frame. It's a shame too, because I really do like the ride.





> Weaknesses:
> The welds at the drop outs


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks. I didn't catch this one because I was looking under the M4 reviews.

Unless there were a number of such incidents, I doubt Specialized would consider it a known defect.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Thanks. I didn't catch this one because I was looking under the M4 reviews.
> 
> Unless there were a number of such incidents, I doubt Specialized would consider it a known defect.


"yeah sorry to hear about the broken frames. I believe Specialized may warranty the frame. i got an Allez frame from Supergo, like back in 97.. it broke at the weld in the rear drop out in 2007. i got a new Allez frame with carbon fork. It just took over a month to process"



groupbmonster said:


> http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/2...-road-bike/specialized/PRD_18548_1610crx.aspx
> 
> the review at the bottom





mcfly said:


> my M4 broke in the same place back in 2001 specialized replaced it with a 2002 e5 s-works frame*..it is a design flaw..alot of them broke there*.




Seems like other people had this problem as well. And they were taken care of by warranty. Just don't get the inconsistency is all. Doesn't make sense.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> *Seems like other people had this problem as well.* And they were taken care of by warranty. Just don't get the inconsistency is all. Doesn't make sense.


Nothing I've seen thus far leads me to the same conclusion. So far, we have your incident, one reviewer and one poster - including the time I've been on RBR reading similar posts. IMO a total of three or four does not constitute a 'known defect'. 

Also, generally speaking, a defect is apparent fairly soon after a product is purchased and put into use. At 11~ years, I don't think your bike was defective, more the part failed from fatigue. That's not to say that in your case I don't think Spec should work with you on this, but (IMO) if they do and you can't afford what they offer, it's not their fault.

All things considered, I think a crash replacement offer would show a good faith effort on Specs part.


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## groupbmonster (Nov 18, 2009)

mcfly said:


> alot of them broke there.


I guess the only thing left for redmr2man to do is to refresh spec's memory about this issue (if there truly were alot of them breaking there) and see what they think about it.

I'm amazed they wouldn't offer up a replacement aluminum frame for free. considering what little production cost is involved versus what can be gained through word of mouth, recommendations etc.

Maybe they decided they need more of your money because their dictionary has a different definition of lifetime than the rest of the world.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

And the friend of mine in quotes, and this guy http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/frames-and-forks/frames/specialized/PRD_54422_2493crx.aspx

and mcfly said alot of them broke in the same place. Word of mouth breaks from other forum members doesn't count?

I'm only irritated here, because others with 10+ yr old frames are getting warrantied as well. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't really care. It makes for inconsistency, and that bothers me.

Sure, crash replacement is better than nothing, and I admit that. But the CR prices I've seen online for the frames aren't that great. A brand new full 2010 allez with sora group and a tiagra rear d, is 599 retail. That means the frame should be what, 300? So CR should be cheaper, but it doesn't look that way.

I'm unimpressed with Specialized.

I guess I'm glad I don't own one of their mountain bikes. The frame warranty on those doesn't include the rear triangle or the suspension linkages. Only considering a front triangle as the frame, is another cop out. And it's a single pivot. haha :thumbsup:


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## edscueth (Jul 12, 2008)

First, I'm going to say I'm not a Specialized fan and second how can you be remotely upset with how they handled this? Age of the bike or wether previous bikes have had this issue is meaningless, your the second owner which voids the warranty - its that simple! They could replace it but they aren't obligated too and now it seems as though you won't let it die until they do - and now I am a Specialized fan.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

edscueth said:


> First, I'm going to say I'm not a Specialized fan and second how can you be remotely upset with how they handled this? Age of the bike or wether previous bikes have had this issue is meaningless, your the second owner which voids the warranty - its that simple! They could replace it but they aren't obligated too and now it seems as though you won't let it die until they do - and now I am a Specialized fan.


Did you read the thread? The original owner took it in.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

IMO RBR members/ reviewers (like yourself) who substantiate their claims count, but hearsay doesn't. To me, that's just another word for spreading gossip/ rumor and I don't form opinions based on that.

It's clear you're irritated, but I think you should give Spec a chance. You don't (yet) know what they're going to offer. But as I just posted, when they do, if you can't afford it, at least try to remain objective and look at their offer(s) in that light. This was a 10+ year old aluminum frame we're talking about. Nothing lasts forever (yeah, I know, lifetime warranty).

Also, key to this is how hard your friend presses Spec. I've seen one case posted here on RBR where initially a customer wasn't pleased with an outcome and communicated it to Specialized who then took steps to remedy the problems. Your friend may have to step up (on your behalf) and do the same. 

RE: your mtb comments. I'm strictly a road rider, so know next to nothing about MTB's, but all I'l say is that before knocking Specs warranty, compare them with some others. You may find tye're not all that different, but that's (admittedly) a guess.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

edscueth said:


> *now I am a Specialized fan*.


Welcome to our world.


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## edscueth (Jul 12, 2008)

Yes, I realize the original owner took it in but their warranty strictly states with original receipt - which he didn't have. All I am saying is you should be fair, since the requirements of the warranty weren't met why should they offer it?


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

Others have taken in bikes 10+ yrs old bikes without receipts, happens all the time with specialized (according to those who took them in, and local LBS claims), and they still get the warranty.

See the inconsistency?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

edscueth said:


> Yes, I realize the original owner took it in but their warranty strictly states with original receipt - which he didn't have. All I am saying is you should be fair, since the requirements of the warranty weren't met why should they offer it?


Just to play devil's advocate, it could be argued that the LBS has copies of receipts, so if that is, in fact, why Spec is denying the original owners claim, I think it's on a technicality.

EDIT: Remember too, that the LBS plays a role in all of this. If they don't push (Specialized) for a resolution, the original owner has to.


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## edscueth (Jul 12, 2008)

Again, the inconsistency doesn't matter - you didn't meet the requirements so they aren't obligated. Its not fair on your behalf to bash Specialize for not replacing the frame when you haven't met the requirements of the warranty! It happened to myself with Giant, I was a second owner - my frame cracked and since I wasn't the original owner with the original receipt all they offered was 15% off a new frame. I wasn't estatic but I understood the situation nor will I blame Giant for not replacing it.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

Well Giant offers free labor on warranties, so they're hard to bash. They don't half ass their definition of frame either.

Inconsistency does matter. It's shady for the company to honor warranties for what seems like a well known defect, without receipts, to alot of people, and then not honor it here. 

You can argue that they have the right to do it all you want, and you're right.

Doesn't make it less shady though.


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## edscueth (Jul 12, 2008)

Its hard to call it shady on such little information you have. All I am saying is I don't think Specialize deserves to be bashed so blantantly. If your not happy have you tried sending them a letter? Coming on here bashing them certainly won't help the issue.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

FWIW.... back around 1990 I was in the market for a high end bike. Since I had a choice of alu or steel for frame materials (as I recall, CF wasn't too far along or popular back then) and my father being a welder, I asked his opinion. He said that aluminum was a soft alloy and if it were him, he'd go with steel. I did. The bike lasted me 17 years before I started seeing some internal rust (then I crashed), so it is now relegated to my trainer.

The moral of the story is that everything does have a lifecycle. From everything I've read, alu bikes are good for 10~ years. Steel can go much longer, depending on the level of care and 'environmentals'. CF and Ti, even longer.

Simply for good business, I think Specialized should step up and _do something _for the OP. Considering where the break occurred, the age of the bike and no proof of purchase, IMO a crash replacement deal would be fair. It's irrelevant whether the deal is financially doable; just offering matters.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

What part of "no receipt, no warranty" is hard to understand?

I got through the warranty process for a customer in 2wks, from finding crack on 9yr old frame, to the customer picking up the new bike. 

But he had a receipt, and there were no questions asked.

OP, maybe you should apply for a job at the shop. Work for a couple weeks, then buy yourself a frame.

And by the way, should you get a new frame, make sure to check compatibility of parts between the two. Specialized won't cover that for you, either. I know, total ***** of a company. 

Seatpost, FD, probably need some new cables and housing.


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## kondre2000 (Mar 11, 2008)

The M4, were they made in the US or did the production go overseas before that?
unfortunate that it broke.


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## mcfly (Feb 19, 2004)

mine broke in 2001...alot different than 9 yrs later....im just saying it was a design flaw, being a prototype machinist here at cornell..the flaw in my opinion was not the weld but where they put that screw and plus they counterbored it to thin out that little web there even more...that is a very old frame so i dont think they would relace it with a 2000.00 frame..i did read about quite a few breaking there when my broke...sorry to hear about you being out of a frame now...dont really know what you can do about it.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

edscueth said:


> Coming on here bashing them certainly won't help the issue.


Especially if they monitor the forum, or do a google search on Specialized S-Works 1999!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

mcfly said:


> *mine broke in 2001...alot different than 9 yrs later....im just saying it was a design flaw*, being a prototype machinist here at cornell..the flaw in my opinion was not the weld but where they put that screw and plus they counterbored it to thin out that little web there even more...that is a very old frame so i dont think they would relace it with a 2000.00 frame..i did read about quite a few breaking there when my broke...sorry to hear about you being out of a frame now...dont really know what you can do about it.


Judging from the OP's pics of where the break occurred, it's clearly a weak spot in the dropout area, so I agree that it's a design flaw. But not knowing the failure rates and given that yours failed early on, I'd vote defect in your case (and apparently Spec agreed). That's why I was curious as to your bikes age.

It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that Spec will offer something in the way of a crash replacement (and I think that's fair), I'm curious as to (specifically) what.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

still no crash replacement pricing.

I think I'm just going to pick up the frame. 

Thanks for all the help.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> still no crash replacement pricing.
> 
> I think I'm just going to pick up the frame.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.


Why not have your friend give them a call to get a status? Sometimes ya gotta light a fire under folks to keep things moving along.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

he has no interest in pursuing it. said its on me now.

I don't see Specialized changing anything here, so I'll go pick up the frame and then buy a different brand.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> he has no interest in pursuing it. said its on me now.
> 
> I don't see Specialized changing anything here, so I'll go pick up the frame and then buy a different brand.


Sorry to hear that. Good luck, whatever you decide to do...


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## tonytourist (Jan 21, 2009)

Specialized treated me right when I had a warranty replacement, but I was the original owner with a receipt and it was less than a year, not 11, after the purchase


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## Bob29er (Jul 19, 2010)

:nono:


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## fletfen (Oct 17, 2010)

The OP is actually the third owner. The friend is the second owner, hence no receipt. S/N to prove.

Spec was aware of this and still offered crash replacement. The owner is trying to take advantage of the warranty system and I will not be suprised if spec pulls this offer when they see (which they will) how he is conducting himself on this forum.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

Correct, after the warranty was given to the LBS, the "original" owner whom I bought the bike from, told me the bike was in fact a third owner bike. I guess the "original" owner actually worked at a bike shop in Sausalito, CA at the time when the REAL original owner took the bike in and traded it in for a Colnago. 

I was told this AFTER the warranty was in motion. 

Not cool at all. 

Either way, I was lead on by the fake "original" owner friend, to think he was the first owner. Oh well, lesson learned. 

The LBS was fantastic to deal with though. I've worked with them before and will work with them in the future, they rock!

For those interested in warranty / crash replacement pricing, here it is:

"We no longer offer a SW level alloy frame. He would be looking at a tarmac pro or SW frame depending on his budget. Price on a pro frame would be 1,209.00. The SW level frame will be 1,802.67. Let me know what the customer is interested in and I will set the order up for you.

Thanks,

Brad Pastir
NW Warranty Rep.
SPECIALIZED BICYCLE COMPONENTS"

Very nice of them to offer, but way way WAY outta budget for a recreational rider / full-time college student. If the warranty had carried out with the original owner w/ or w/o receipt, like I was lead to believe, I'd feel differently. I would have hoped that they would warranty it with a new frame. But in the end, given the circumstances, you can't blame the Big S for their policy.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks for posting Spec's proposal. In light of all the facts and despite the fact that you can't avail yourself of it, I think it's a generous offer. 

IIRC you aren't interested in an Allez, but that would be my only other suggestion to you. Try to work with the rep on a crash replacement price for the new Allez frameset. If they were amicable to the idea, it would be far below the price of the Pro.


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## IAmSpecialized (Jul 16, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> IIRC you aren't interested in an Allez...


You are correct. He said that early on. Made no sense to me. I guess he thinks an Allez isn't worth riding on since it's not the latest greatest piece of carbon fiber technology. Could be wrong, but that's the impression I get after reading this entire thread.

I should tell him that I have a 14.8 pound 2010 S-Works SL3 fully built with Sram Red/Force, full Ritchey carbon cockpit and Easton EC() carbon clinchers . I also have a 2011 E5 Allez frameset that I just finished building up with cheap used Sram Rival, Ritchey cockpit and a new 7800 Dura-Ace crankset.

The Allez is STIFF AS F*CKING NAILS. I'm only 156 lbs, but I can tell absolutely no difference in the Allez and S-Works SL3 as far as stiffness is concerned. IT IS A BLAST TO RIDE. It now sees three times more ride time than my latest greatest biggest baddest super expensive SL3. And, it will be raced for years to come. 

But what do I know? I own both. I can only tell you my SL3 has seen very little of me since I finished building up the Allez. It's a damn fine bike. If I were him, I'd be asking Specy what they would do for me on an E5 Allez frameset.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

IAmSpecialized said:


> You are correct. He said that early on. Made no sense to me. I guess he thinks an Allez isn't worth riding on since it's not the latest greatest piece of carbon fiber technology. Could be wrong, but that's the impression I get after reading this entire thread.
> 
> I should tell him that I have a 14.8 pound 2010 S-Works SL3 fully built with Sram Red/Force, full Ritchey carbon cockpit and Easton EC() carbon clinchers . I also have a 2011 E5 Allez frameset that I just finished building up with cheap used Sram Rival, Ritchey cockpit and a new 7800 Dura-Ace crankset.
> 
> ...


Wow, very impressive feedback on the Allez. Just curious how it stacks up against the SL3 on the comfort scale (all else being as equal as possible, of course).


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

I have contacted them about an Allez, but you're correct when I said I'm not too interested in one. I'm not after the latest greatest piece of cf tech, so your impression is indeed wrong.

I just...don't want an Allez. 

The frame isn't aesthetically pleasing to me, at all. The test rides I've been on, the frame is very stiff, and you certainly feel that. Coming off the M4 SW, a frame known for stiffness, I was surprised at how the new Allez contributed road feel and didn't contribute things like...acceleration. It's almost a harsh ride. I feel like I'm following more of the smaller irregularities in the road than on any other bike. Then when you toss out a big sprint, it just doesn't "spring" and accelerate like the M4 SW. I've compared the geo, and I can't see what would make it that much different, but it's there. I just don't see how the harshness of the ride isn't complimented with quick acceleration.

But then again, I just...don't* want *an Allez. 

I'll see what they say and post up though


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redmr2_man said:


> I have contacted them about an Allez, but you're correct when I said I'm not too interested in one. I'm not after the latest greatest piece of cf tech, so your impression is indeed wrong.
> 
> I just...don't want an Allez.
> 
> ...


One man's candy is another man's medicine, as they say. Personally, I've always ridden either steel or (more recently) CF, and think they'r both very nice frame materials. Any alu bike I've test ridden left me with the same impressions you've posted, but I'm interested in hearing feedback from IamSpecialized. Gotta try to keep an open mind.  

Yes, pls post an update with Specs response.


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## IAmSpecialized (Jul 16, 2008)

I just wrote a 3 paragraph response and then my computer decided to freeze. Tomorrow, perhaps I'll rewrite all of it.


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## worst_shot_ever (Jul 27, 2009)

The expectations of some in this thread are fairly absurd. An 11 year old frame, who knows how many thousands of miles and in what sort of conditions. If OP wanted the peace of mind that he will be reimbursed with a brand new frame should something go south, he shouldn't be frustrated at the frame mfgr, but at himself for buying a bike second-hand that was built when he was likely still in elementary school, and futher, at the seller for lying to him about its history (assuming OP wouldn't have bought it anyway even if he knew about the other prior owner). Assumption of that risk is part of the reason one pays pennies on the dollar for used gear.


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## pdainsworth (Jun 6, 2004)

worst_shot_ever said:


> The expectations of some in this thread are fairly absurd. An 11 year old frame, who knows how many thousands of miles and in what sort of conditions. If OP wanted the peace of mind that he will be reimbursed with a brand new frame should something go south, he shouldn't be frustrated at the frame mfgr, but at himself for buying a bike second-hand that was built when he was likely still in elementary school, and futher, at the seller for lying to him about its history (assuming OP wouldn't have bought it anyway even if he knew about the other prior owner). Assumption of that risk is part of the reason one pays pennies on the dollar for used gear.


Amen, brother. Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## IAmSpecialized (Jul 16, 2008)

worst_shot_ever said:


> The expectations of some in this thread are fairly absurd..


Agreed, especially in the current context.


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

worst_shot_ever said:


> *The expectations of some in this thread are fairly absurd.* An 11 year old frame, who knows how many thousands of miles and in what sort of conditions. If OP wanted the peace of mind that he will be reimbursed with a brand new frame should something go south, he shouldn't be frustrated at the frame mfgr, but at himself for buying a bike second-hand that was built when he was likely still in elementary school, and futher, at the seller for lying to him about its history (assuming OP wouldn't have bought it anyway even if he knew about the other prior owner). Assumption of that risk is part of the reason one pays pennies on the dollar for used gear.


Re-read post #-92, as it clears up alot of what you just mentioned.

Yep, in light of this new information, there is no reason to be mad at Specialized at all! To honor crash replacement pricing on a third owner frame is pretty neat if you ask me. The expectations of some in this thread, were based on him being the original owner.

Had I been the original owner w/ OR w/o a receipt, I'm sure hoping they would have taken care of me better. The anger came from a relatively large number of people warrantying 10+ yr old frames withOUT receipts, and still being taken care of by the big S, as well as the apparent "known" defect in the frame design. It cracked where they all crack lol.

The inconsistency, as posted numerous times, is what was irritating and what I had deemed shady. Now obviously, without him being the real original owner, there is simply no leg to stand on and they did the right thing  

I was actually in High School when this frame was made. Sometimes I wish I was younger though :thumbsup:


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

IAmSpecialized said:


> I just wrote a 3 paragraph response and then my computer decided to freeze. Tomorrow, perhaps I'll rewrite all of it.


I've done the same. With some of the problems this forum's been experiencing lately I've taken to copying my posts before submitting, just in case...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond... :thumbsup:


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## redmr2_man (Dec 22, 2009)

hey at least we aren't getting redirected to the parent site of INVENDA again :thumbsup: 

:waits for forum to say I double posted, as usual:  

LOL


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## carrock (Aug 10, 2009)

worst_shot_ever said:


> The expectations of some in this thread are fairly absurd. An 11 year old frame, who knows how many thousands of miles and in what sort of conditions. If OP wanted the peace of mind that he will be reimbursed with a brand new frame should something go south, he shouldn't be frustrated at the frame mfgr, but at himself for buying a bike second-hand that was built when he was likely still in elementary school, and futher, at the seller for lying to him about its history (assuming OP wouldn't have bought it anyway even if he knew about the other prior owner). Assumption of that risk is part of the reason one pays pennies on the dollar for used gear.


Aluminium has a fatigue limit and will only flex a number of times before failure.

That given, an 11 year old frame is beyond it's expected lifetime and should be junked and replaced. Difficult to see how this could be warranted as there is no clear proof of any defects when new. The OP should be grateful he has been offered any gesture at all IMHO and specialized should be praised for indulging him at all.

If you want a frame to last a lifetime, buy steel or titanium

End of story


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

^ You didnt read the thread, did you? 

Spec does warranty 11 year old aluminum frames. He was declined because he didnt have a receipt, not because aluminum has a fatigue limit. People buy spec because spec goes above and beyond for their customers.


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## jbutts (Dec 2, 2010)

*Replacement frame*

I had 2 friends that had the same issue with their M4's. Specialized replaced both but they did have their receipts and worked with the shop where they bought them. This was about 5 years ago so not as old. I still have my yellow S-Works M4. A few thousand miles per year and still working well. Of course when my friend had his replaced with a re E5 I was hoping mine would break. These welds on the drive side was the problem for both my friends. Maybe you had mend it and put in a replacement hangar available on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ea08264&itemid=220675497882&ff4=263602_304642


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