# Wheel help, running out of options....



## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

WARNING... LONG READ AHEAD...

Ok so I have been thru 3 high end wheel sets in 2 years now and I am at my wits end as to what the heck is going on.

My background, 40 year old rider, weight is 195-205, 5'8", combined I ride around 3000-4000 miles a year.

Bike is a Giant Propel Advanced with Di2, though wheel issues started on my Giant TCR that I had before this bike.

First wheels with issue was a set of Mavic Ksryium elites. Got them right before the hotter than hell 2013. Rode them on that ride, had an issue of the hub slipping every once in awhile. Then around the 300 mile mark while out of the saddle on a climb the hub slipped, when it caught the force was too much and broke 2 spokes. Dealer sent them into Mavic who had them 6 weeks and still had not fixed them, dealer refunded purchase and put me into a set of Reynolds Assaults.

2013 Reynolds Assaults, made it about 300 miles and the wheels would not hold true. Every 50 miles or so they were needing to be trued. I had my local mechanic that most of the local racers use check the wheels out, he suggested re-tensioning the wheels. Called Reynolds, got specs and tensioned the wheels. Wheels went 250 miles before truing issues came back. Reynolds then took the wheels back, as part of an agreement to make it right they rebuilt the wheels with DT Swiss 240 hubs and DT Swiss spokes. Same outcome, 200 miles or so and the wheels would not hold true.

Reynolds deemed the rims defective, sent the shop 2 new rims, new spokes and nipples. Shop rebuilt the wheels and once again tensioned per Reynolds specs. Same outcome, made it about 150 miles before wheels would not hold true. Then to top it off I was breaking a spoke every week or so. Reynolds then asked for the wheels back and directly refunded me my money. A month or so later Reynolds called me to say they found the issue, wheels were built with the wrong spokes from what they told me.

So then the shop I race for stepped in, after many hours of research I settled with the Shimano 9000 Dura Ace C35 wheels. I thought I had finally shook the curse.

Nope, 300 miles later truing issues returned. Shop checked the wheels and found every spoke on the rear wheel had lost tension. Called Shimano, they told shop to re-tension the wheels and provided the specs. Wheels made it maybe 50-100 miles and would not hold true. Called Shimano, they said this was a known issue and the wheels needed blue locktite and wanted the shop to rebuild the wheels. I declined and told Shimano they needed to do the work as it was not right to ask the shop to do it at no charge. Shimano sent RMA for wheels.

2 weeks later wheels show back up at the shop. Open box to find out they are brand new wheels. Shop check tension and it was on the low end of the Shimano specs. I take wheels home, set them up and mount them on the bike.

Yesterday was the first ride on them, rode 10 miles to the shop and by the time I got I noticed my wheel magnet had turned far enough it was hitting the sensor. The spoke had already turned and was showing signs of losing tension. I had marked the spokes and nipples to check this idea before I rode on them, glad I did.

Went on the ride with the shop, around mile 20 on the wheels got out of the saddle and boom, spoke with the magnet released fully and made me have to stop and correct the spoke. At that point any time out of the saddle would cause the spoke to turn. Once I got home several spokes had turned and lost tension, several of the spokes at the hub were not seated as they should have been, they had turned in the hub which should not have happened.

Shop mgr said he would do what ever I want, I said send them back to Shimano and I am done as I am not taking another chance on them. Now just waiting to get that processed and I will be ordering a set of Bontrager Aeolus D3 clinchers.

Now mind you, my stock Giant wheels (PSL0) have made it 1500 miles with out ever being touched, the wheels on my Giant Anthem Advanced full suspension mountain bike are the Giant full carbon wheels, they have been beat to hell and back from racing and once again have never been touched.

So does anyone have any insight, do I just have that bad of luck or am I doing something wrong. I mean I am no pro cyclist, I can manage 18-21mph averages on my pace which is not even fast enough to stay with the fast group in this area.

Sorry for the long read, just completely worn out on this issue at this point.

Todd


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

If these are random failures, then that is some really crappy luck. I don't really know any of those specific wheel sets, but do they have weight limits? 

You may consider getting a used set, especially if you can get one from someone you know, (so you know for sure not a problem set) then if problem recurs, you'll have some insight. Another option is to get a custom set from a pro builder.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I doubt they're random failure, Your history is too consistent. You're ~ 200lbs, and it sounds like you're pretty powerful. My SWAG is not enough spokes in your wheel for your weight an power, which is causing a cyclical loss of tension in the spokes under load while riding. You probably need a rear with at least 28 spokes, and 32 would be more reliable.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

^^ +1 (I was going to say it too, Ibericb, but am tired of the ridicule that that common sense wisdom receives on this board from a select few posters saying lower spoke count wheels are fine and dandy when properly built, properly tensioned, and blah, blah, blah...)


TJay74,

Do you live on roads that are fairly undulating, rough, constant gradient variations in the asphalt and/or cement every few feet and/or yards? I know this sounds stupid, but it reality it is not. Why? If you live on fairly smooth roads, then I am at a loss to say what is going on (especially on the Elites failing like that). 

But consider this: I am at your weight (195-200lbs), I put out maybe a bit more power than you and also endurance avg speeds. But I live in a neck of the world (S. Belgium and N. France border area) that is known for some of the most brutal tarmac imaginable. After living in a lot of places for my first 4 decades, even a few years back in late 80s suffering China's roads, I've never seen roads like what are here in S. Belgium/N. France. Let me try to give you frame of reference: do you know how many riders we see show up at the various large group rides (125-150 riders) around this region that are on any kind of low spoke count wheel? Nearly zero, and this is including the sponsored riders from pro & continental teams. Why? I don't care what anyone on an internet forum says about how tough & durable any 24H spoke count wheel is. In reality, in real life, in real world tough conditions like these, they simply are not. Most of these guys are on 28 or 32H rear wheels, with 24H fronts (but most on 28H or above fronts). 

So, I am confused: if you ride rough roads, and you are a known 200lb-er, why would you be tempting the screw-up Wheel Gods trying to ride something like the Reynolds Assaults Carbons (they are the carbons, correct?) which says right on the Reynolds site they rec a rider max weight of 175? Same goes for Shimano: Shimano will famously say there are no weight limits for the C35 and C50s, but if you talk to Shimano Wheel people (_a few ride in one of the big monthly meetings up near Brussels_), they flat out tell you to your face that if you are over 195-200lb, unless you live on non-pothole, pancake smooth roads it is best to stay off of any of their low spoke count wheels and get something custom-built that is sturdier. There is the corporate selling party line, and there is the everyday, common sense what works line. Same goes for Mavic, Reynolds, et al (the big builders). 

There are a lot of wheel builders on this forum who will build you a set like this that outlast all those other pre-built, mass-market low spoke count wheels. There builders here who could even get you on Dura Ace 9000 28-32H rear hubs, nice Pacenti and/or H+ Sons Archetype rims, Sapim spokes and nipples, all for a great price. And you can be pretty much guaranteed you will ride those wheels for months if not year or two and possibly never have to true them and/or pay them any attention.

Also, know that you have fantastic choices like Boyd Cycling's wheelsets (~$650) where you can get a sturdy 28HF 32HR built using Boyd's hubs and rims (good stuff), or even the recently released November Dave wheelsets with Pacenti new rims + beautiful, bulletproof Chris King hubs especially made for November's customers, incredibly all for under $600. Or, heck, you could do something like Neugent Cycling's wheelsets that are 28H front and rear, and pick them up for ~$550. I could keep going on, but the point is to pay attention to getting a wheel that is good for you, and NOT a mass-market pre-built wheelset that you are trying make yourself good for (_haha, I am going to get flamed for all these comments, but I stand by them because of what I see monthly around these parts of northern Europe_). 

Low spoke count wheels for riders 200lbs+ make about as much sense as Tom Brady inflating footballs up to NFL specs in cold, rainy New England weather


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Warning: Do NOT walk under ladders, let a black cat cross your path, or break a mirror. You're already pushing it!

Seriously, I'm with BelgainHammer and iberecb; skip the aftermarket high end wheels and get yourself some 32H or 36H handbuilt wheels. You probably need just a rear wheel as you have no front wheel complaints. Who cares if the front and rear wheel don't match; you'll save some money and cure your problem.

I only suggest "handbuilt" because you can select the components, not because they're necessarily better than the pre-built aftermarket models.

And for a rim, I suggest an asymmetrical rim. It will provide much more even left/right tension which will vastly improve wheel longevity. DT Swiss R440 and Velocity Aerohead O/C are the rims of choice. Stick with Shimano hubs; they've got their design down pat so flange and spoke hole shape are optimized to minimize prematurely breaking spokes.

Quality wheels shouldn't need loctite to keep the spokes from loosening, either.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

You are very heavy for your height. I'm not going to call you fat, who knows, maybe you're all muscle... but I am going to tell you to only ride 32 spoke wheels.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

"hulk smash and bash"


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## MisterMike (Aug 12, 2004)

I've got a couple pounds on you. The prior advice to skip the high end wheels and go with traditional hand built wheels is the best advice you will get. You should not be able to destroy a *well built* 32 spoke wheel with something like a velocity fusion or deep v rims, ultegra hubs and sapim spokes. At least I can't!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

All these issues and no-one clued in to the idea that the parts in question were just not up to the job being asked of them?  You need more spokes laced to rims of acceptable rigidity - by someone who knows how to build wheels properly.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> All these issues and no-one clued in to the idea that the parts in question were just not up to the job being asked of them?


Does kind of make you wonder about that LBS, doesn't it?

BTW - this is a great example of what can happen when a 200 lb powerhouse uses race stuff designed for <170lb folks. I guess would probably work if you completely overhauled the wheel every 200km.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

If I were dropping $1000+ and having those results I would be running to the best wheelbuilder I could contact and tell them my story and have them design the wheels for me. Experienced custom wheel builders have likely seen this exact scenario played out before and have provided a solution for someone else in your situation. You will still have fast wheels, but without the drama of returning to the store after every other ride.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Excellent advice in the posts above. 

OP, you're not out of options...you have plenty. 

Consider:
Prowheelbuilder.com (they even guide you through the process by asking about your weight and how hard you will use the wheels.)

Wheelbuilder.com

Novemberbicycles.com

...or one of the wheel builders who participate on this site.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

I wish I could think of an answer. All I can add is that I am 200-205 lbs and have ridden Shimano C50 wheels, Oval C330 wheels and Reynolds Assault wheels. All three have taken a beating. The Reynolds and Oval have never needed to even be trued. The Oval front hub went out at about 4000 miles but I ride a lot in rain, dirt, mud (Fuji Altamira) so things got rusty in there. I did break a spoke on the Shimano C50 right after I got them, my LBS replaced the spoke, retentioned the wheel and all has been fine.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Does kind of make you wonder about that LBS, doesn't it?


Yes, but in many ways, no. Factory prebuilts must have been a breath of fresh air for LBS everywhere. They could ride on the coat-tails of mega-$ advertising by large companies, which drove people into LBS looking for the visually different wheels that the pros were using (and provided with for free). The LBS didn't have to employ people who could build wheels, didn't have to carry the parts inventory, didn't have to warranty their work and washed their hands of wheel problems with a phone call to the wheelset maker or marketer. If you're a LBS owner, what's not to like eh?

Then to sell to the masses the factories down-graded some wheel models to meet low price points. They still had to keep the visual aspect (low spoke numbers!) that the people could see in the glossy magazines so they had to build in some stiffness & bulk. Years ago I weighed a set of low-end Shimano wheels (18/20 spokes I think) that weighed MORE than my own personal Ultegra/Open Pro/DT Comp/32/32 wheels.

And when bike makers buy those factory wheels by the boxcar (they too don't have to employ wheelbuilders or carry wheel parts!) and bolt them to bikes that the masses were buying, the average newby had no idea that really they *should* be riding on 32/32 wheels.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

mr645,

Just curious, about what parts of the USA (if you do live in the USA) do you live/ride??


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I'm stumped. While it's true your wheel selection hasn't matched your weight as well as it could have, still, I don't think anyone of the same weight could intentionally make those wheels go out of true at the rate you do. I'm not advocating you stick with those type spec. wheel but still the fact it there are thousands upon thousands of people just as heavy not having problems at that rate so it's either an unreal stroke of bad luck or some other factor.

I'm not even sure if this would cause these problems but I wonder if your frame is out of alignment or something. Your weight on those wheels could explain some problems but not problems at the rate your have them unless you're leaving out hitting railroad tracks all the time or something.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm at the OP's weight, 2" taller... ride on roads worse than Oklahoma..... and never had issues with my RBR-not approved Mavic Kysrium Elite.... the only time I had to get a spoke adjusted was in a crash (and cleaning & relube the freehub)

the Giant PSL0 is supposedly a low spoke count wheelset as well....

but, to mirror everyone else.... up the spoke count and have a good wheelbuilder work on your wheels.

one of tech's a the LBS, never had issues with with his Mavic Ksyrium SL Tubulars... and he's hovering around 250 lbs....

so, maybe tubulars can be an option for race day, and have a set of heavier duty training wheels for training rides.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm stumped. While it's true your wheel selection hasn't matched your weight as well as it could have, still, I don't think anyone of the same weight could intentionally make those wheels go out of true at the rate you do. I'm not advocating you stick with those type spec. wheel but still the fact it there are thousands upon thousands of people just as heavy not having problems at that rate so it's either an unreal stroke of bad luck or some other factor.
> 
> I'm not even sure if this would cause these problems but I wonder if your frame is out of alignment or something. Your weight on those wheels could explain some problems but not problems at the rate your have them unless you're leaving out hitting railroad tracks all the time or something.


I'm with you.
I'm the OP's height, slightly heavier, A-group rider on a Giant TCR and same annual mileage and have over 3500 miles on 16/20 paired spoke Bontrager Race X Lites with never a broken spoke...I chalk it up to using a 25 in the back.  These are now my back up wheels.
My current wheels are Easton EA90 SL 20/24, definitely over 2k miles without needing to be trued. Knocks on wood.
I think it's something else also, all these issues with a majority of them being under 100 miles? Come on.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I'm pretty sure if you want a nice carbon (clincher or otherwise) wheelset that you can build Enves up into 28 spoke configurations. 

My other favorite rim selection are Rols, but I don't think they drill 28s...


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks for the input peeps, it helps and was in the line of where my thinking is going as well.

Reynolds told that the Assaults had no weight limits, I dealt with the warranty manager who was a racer herself, she went above and beyond in trying to get the wheels to work and I wish they had as they were a 1375g full carbon set.

Roads in my area range from chip seal to asphualt to concrete to smooth to rough to flat to hilly. We really have it all here, none of the wheels has ever hit a pot hole so it I know that is not the issue. What throws me some is my full carbon wheelset on my mountain bike has been fine, but after seeing the posts about spoke count they are a 28h on the rear and 24h on the front.

As of now I cant go custom since the money is already spent with my LBS that I race for, I am tied to them at this point. the shop mgr is a friend as well, he called me on the way home and wanted to try another set of the DA wheels. I told him I am done with them, he accepted that said he will get Shimano to issue an RMA and get credit for them.

Plan is to order some 2015 Bontrager Aeolus 3 wheels as the next set, I demo'd some last year and while I really liked them as they hit the points I was after I had issues with getting the rear brake pads to land on the brake track, pads were down as far as they could go and only half of the pad was on the brake track.

At this point if this doesn't work then I am going to sell the Bontragers and go with a custom 28h rear / 24h front set.

Really not wanting super heavy aluminum wheels. I built this bike ground up with all high end stuff as my dream bike so I really am set on having a nice set of carbon wheels for it as well.

Once again thanks for the input and help, hopefully as I continue to drop weight it will help some, but I doubt it will be the cure all. I have pretty large legs from playing soccer for many years and to some degree I wonder if I am just out muscling what some wheels can handle. As of now I am down to 193 now with hopes to get into the 180-185 range before the end of summer.

Thanks for everything.... Todd


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I understand you don't want heavy Al wheels. But put HED on your list. They make some very durable aero wheels made for heavier and more powerful riders (see the Stallions).


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

TJay74 said:


> Once again thanks for the input and help, hopefully as I continue to drop weight it will help some, but I doubt it will be the cure all. I have pretty large legs from playing soccer for many years and to some degree I wonder if I am just out muscling what some wheels can handle. As of now I am down to 193 now with hopes to get into the 180-185 range before the end of summer.


Hmm, so if your weight is really a lot of muscle, then you may be one of those guys who can crank out 2000 Watts in a hard sprint, and put out a hell of a lot of torque. That does ask a lot of your wheels, so a 28- or even 32-count wheel may be the way to go. The additional spokes weigh almost nothing anyway, and whatever the additional weight is makes no practical difference to you. You also add a bit of aerodynamic drag, but again that's something to worry about when you go pro, in which case your mechanic will take care of your wheels...


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

I wont ever have to worry about going pro, I only hang on the coat tails of the fast riders for 15-20 miles before I fall off...lol

Well struck out with HED, while they make a carbon wheel and it comes in a 24h rear they don't offer a clincher, only tubular. Looks like the DA wheels were a 21h rear and 16h front. The Bontragers are showing to be 24h rear and 18h front. Sounds like if we can get the rear brake on my bike sorted out they should do the trick then.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Pirx said:


> Hmm, so if your weight is really a lot of muscle, then you may be one of those guys who can crank out 2000 Watts in a hard sprint, and put out a hell of a lot of torque. That does ask a lot of your wheels, so a 28- or even 32-count wheel may be the way to go.


I used to pop 1400 readily on according to the computrainer. And riding with my nutty bunch of crit riders on training days [I used to only TT for fear of busting bones and loosing contacts for my livelihood]. We got pretty aggressive in threes and sixes, so to speak. Although when we got to all on sprint there was usually only one or two left standing [as in to the end, sitting when obviously out distanced etc]. I was the sprinting sparing partner for the guys, again as I would not mass start race at all...

My point to that anecdotal ramble is that I never wonked out a 32 spoke rear. I learned to build and always made my own after wonking out some chi chi stuff dejour. I was to heavy and strong for those to have last too long. But I always got at least a season before I started seeing any wonk with the likes of Rolfs and Bonty Race-X etc.... I picture the OP as having a lot muscle weight/mass like a speed skater or Marty Noth.... maybe. 

@ 58 years old as of the other day, my last few builds are a 28 rear. Never built a rear 28. One a 28 disc rear as well. Going to see what service thy return...


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

TJay74 said:


> Well struck out with HED, while they make a carbon wheel and it comes in a 24h rear they don't offer a clincher, only tubular. Looks like the DA wheels were a 21h rear and 16h front. The Bontragers are showing to be 24h rear and 18h front. Sounds like if we can get the rear brake on my bike sorted out they should do the trick then.


You know, if I was you, I'd really check out those wheelbuilder sites linked to earlier, such as 

Prowheelbuilder.com, Wheelbuilder.com, or 
Novemberbicycles.com

If you're lusting after carbon, you can get, for example, a 28s Zipp 404 FireCrest custom-built for you. If you give them your parameters, they _will_ build you a wheel that you'll never have to worry about, guaranteed.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

robdamanii said:


> My other favorite rim selection are Rols, but I don't think they drill 28s...


Sean Lambert is a stud. He could drill a 28 any day of the week. 

TJay74, everyone here has covered the mechanical aspect of your wheels. What tire size and pressures are you running? You said you encounter chip seal and slightly bumpy roads, and your tires are your first defense against road shock. At your weight you should realistically have 25c tires to accommodate more air volume.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

TJay74 said:


> I wont ever have to worry about going pro, I only hang on the coat tails of the fast riders for 15-20 miles before I fall off...lol
> 
> Well struck out with HED, while they make a carbon wheel and it comes in a 24h rear they don't offer a clincher, only tubular. Looks like the DA wheels were a 21h rear and 16h front. The Bontragers are showing to be *24h rear and 18h front*. Sounds like if we can get the rear brake on my bike sorted out they *should do the trick *then.


I saw where you said thanks for the responses but did you actually read them? Kind of hard to imagine you did and came up with that.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Add to what Pirx suggested:

Boyd Cycling carbon clinchers:
1. 44mm clincher wheel set - 24f/28r, 1498g set.
2. 60mm clincher wheel set - 24f/28r 1627g set.

Compare to the HED Jet Plus Stallion (alloy):
3. 4 Plus Stallion 24f/28r - 1649 g
4. 6 Plus Stallion - 24f/28r - 1698 g


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

TJay- do you stand on climbs a lot? When you stand, do you rock the bike from side to side?

I do and it's hard on rear wheels. I weigh 145 lbs and make less power than you but I regularly kill rear wheels. I learned how to build wheels and can build wheels that last longer under me than factory or mail order or LBS builds. I build my training wheels 20f/28r and race wheels 20f/24r. I would not go lower than that.

As far as rim weight, the lightest clincher rims at the moment are aluminium (Stans 340s). Carbon rims advantage is that they can be made deep section aero without the weight penalty that you'd get from the same shape in aluminium. But they're not lighter than aluminium on an absolute basis.

Deeper section rims are stiffer and make a wheel that lasts longer, other things being equal.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

I did, I read every one of them. Did you read where I don't have a choice as the money I spent on the DA wheels I cant get back? The LBS I got to doesn't really do custom builds, so I am stuck with what they can get in and order. My options are limited in this regards.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

once again the problem is I don't have another $2500 to spend on a custom build, the money is already tied up in and with my LBS. While they got Shimano to take the DA wheels back I am required to buy something from the shop via what they can get their hands on from the vendors they use.

Not a lot of options or choices, plus I race for the shop and get team pricing. Sure at some point if I cant get a set to work I will have to eat some (probably a lot) on the wheels and take a huge loss on them and then go custom. Until then I am going to exhaust the options I have thru the shop that don't cost me any more than I have to.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

ericm979 said:


> TJay- do you stand on climbs a lot? When you stand, do you rock the bike from side to side?
> 
> I do and it's hard on rear wheels. I weigh 145 lbs and make less power than you but I regularly kill rear wheels. I learned how to build wheels and can build wheels that last longer under me than factory or mail order or LBS builds. I build my training wheels 20f/28r and race wheels 20f/24r. I would not go lower than that.
> 
> ...


Yes I do stand, on almost all climbs. If I don't it eventually causes quad failure. I do it some to keep my legs stretched out, but the climbs also call for it some around here. As an example my 32 mile ride from last night had almost 1900' of climbing. I did a 67 mile ride two weeks ago and finished with 4400' of climbing on that ride.

I do rock the bike, not so much on normal climbs, but if I am riding with friends and the competitive side is there it can turn into a sprint climb out of the saddle with a more aggressive rock so I am sure that is not helping at all.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Just a thought, and not being critical, but you have nearly overcontrained the equation by being stuck with the shop/budget, and adhering to carbon, given that you need stronger wheels. That will probably mean more material in the wheel, which will mean heavier. But you already know what will likely happen if you keep pursuing the less robust, lower spoke count wheels. There is nothing magic in the Bontrager wheel vs. the Mavic or Reynolds. By your past experience, the Bontrager wheels will likely lead you to the same result, although they may last twice as long (600 miles?).

If you give up the carbon, you can have HED Jet Plus in Stallion version, and the 60mm deep version is pretty damn close to a 60mm deep carbon Boyd on weight. Alternatively, have the shop call Boyd - I suspect they can get the wheels readily, they just don't have Boyd on their radar screen.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

That's normal, powerful climbing technique. But at your weight and power, you need a wheel designed to meet that demand - 28 spoke rear minimum. There aren't a lot of options in carbon (Zipp and Boyd), but there are some.

Question - can your LBS order from Wheelbuilder? They will put together a set of Zipp 404 404 Firecrest on WI TI11 hubs for about $2250.

Otherwise, move to alloy if you want durability/reliability.

A third option is to learn about wheel building, then after every ride or two breakdown the wheel, re-tension, and true them.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

TJay74 said:


> I did, I read every one of them. Did you read where I don't have a choice as the money I spent on the DA wheels I cant get back? The LBS I got to doesn't really do custom builds, so I am stuck with what they can get in and order. My options are limited in this regards.


Get the warranty wheels and sell them. Get wheels custom built for you. Or better still, build 'em yourself and then, in the rare chance that correct spec wheels go out of true, you will be able to fix them in minutes.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Maybe some DT Aerolights instead of CX X-ray may be of help... if applicable...


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

TJay74 said:


> once again the problem is I don't have another $2500 to spend on a custom build, the money is already tied up in and with my LBS. While they got Shimano to take the DA wheels back I am required to buy something from the shop via what they can get their hands on from the vendors they use.
> 
> Not a lot of options or choices, plus I race for the shop and get team pricing. Sure at some point if I cant get a set to work I will have to eat some (probably a lot) on the wheels and take a huge loss on them and then go custom. Until then I am going to exhaust the options I have thru the shop that don't cost me any more than I have to.


do they also order from QBP, Inc? Because they can order many of the brands already recommended.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

tednugent said:


> do they also order from QBP, Inc? Because they can order many of the brands already recommended.


This is what I was thinking. They should be able to ORDER parts and BUILD you wheels that will be stronger than most factory offerings.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

TJay74 said:


> I did, I read every one of them. Did you read where I don't have a choice as the money I spent on the DA wheels I cant get back? The LBS I got to doesn't really do custom builds, so I am stuck with what they can get in and order. My options are limited in this regards.


no I guess I missed that part or it didn't register if I did read it. Sorry.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

ibericb said:


> Just a thought, and not being critical, but you have nearly overcontrained the equation by being stuck with the shop/budget, and adhering to carbon, given that you need stronger wheels. That will probably mean more material in the wheel, which will mean heavier. But you already know what will likely happen if you keep pursuing the less robust, lower spoke count wheels. There is nothing magic in the Bontrager wheel vs. the Mavic or Reynolds. By your past experience, the Bontrager wheels will likely lead you to the same result, although they may last twice as long (600 miles?).
> 
> If you give up the carbon, you can have HED Jet Plus in Stallion version, and the 60mm deep version is pretty damn close to a 60mm deep carbon Boyd on weight. Alternatively, have the shop call Boyd - I suspect they can get the wheels readily, they just don't have Boyd on their radar screen.


Not wanting anything that deep, max is 30-40mm that I am after at this point. Sure I can ask the shop to call those companies but that is assuming the owner of the shop wants to pay the money and or do what is needed to become a seller for either of them. I tried asking that question last year on another issue and was not able to get them to do it.

I already have a set of Alum rims that I ride on that work great.





robdamanii said:


> This is what I was thinking. They should be able to ORDER parts and BUILD you wheels that will be stronger than most factory offerings.





Mike T. said:


> Get the warranty wheels and sell them. Get wheels custom built for you. Or better still, build 'em yourself and then, in the rare chance that correct spec wheels go out of true, you will be able to fix them in minutes.




Once again problem comes up, I am not trying to take a bath on this either. I put in a lot of OT to build this bike, and around my parts a $2000 brand new wheel set goes for $1000 on the used market even with zero to low miles on them. Then factor in building a set thru the wheel builder sites. Building a set Enve with DT Swiss 240 hubs (1400g) put me in around $2500, sure I can build some Boyds with the same hubs and save $400-500 and end up at 1600g. I don't know the Boyd name, I do know the Enve name and in the end of the day I have to deal with the wife who is really not liking the idea of me spending another $500 much less $1500 if I take a huge loss on the set of wheels I get from the LBS.


Thanks for the suggestions, as I mentioned earlier I am stuck to some degree and have limited choices. This is as small 2 store shop who does a great job of taking care of us, the manager has bent over backwards and done more than I expected in this case. Bontrager has already said the weight on the wheels will be fine and they lifetime warranty the wheels.

At this point I am going to roll with it and make some other changes. I will keep the info on the backside for the custom build, just hard to spend full retail when I get things just over store cost.

I don't have the time or space to build wheels right now, we are building a house which is taking a lot of extra funds and I don't have the space until we are in the new house. Plus add in another $300 for the Park stand and tension gauge and what ever else I would be missing that I would need to build the wheels. The stand and gauge are on my tool list, but it wont be until next year.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

SauronHimself said:


> ...your tires are your first defense against road shock. ... 25c tires to accommodate more air volume.


Truer words were never spoken.

Some people sit on a bike like dead wood and their wheels get beat to sh!t. Some people have peculiar pedal strokes with high peak forces on the downstroke and little else around the rest of the stroke. I'm not saying these are the OP's issues; just that there are things outside the obvious that are possibilities.

And really, building a quality set of wheels is not some "man behind the curtain" stuff. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a competent wheelbuilder.

I'll also reiterate my initial post; I'm a big fan of asymmetric rear rims. They really even out the left/right spoke tension on rear wheels, contributing to wheels that stay true longer.

The weight savings from carbon wheels vs. aluminum is really meaningless; less than the weight of a full waterbottle. I'd suggest the OP starting thinking away from the lines of his desires to have a high zoot bike and think along the lines of practicality.
I realize he's constrained by sponsorship and money issues, however.

The cheap test is definitely a larger rear tire.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

You can get the Bontrager Aeolus 5s instead of the 3s. Same price. The 5s have the same number of spokes but the stiffer deeper section rim will make a laterally stiffer wheel. 

I've done a lot of climbing races with 45-50mm deep rims and they work pretty well and give some speed on descents. They do catch side winds more than low profile rims but it's not a problem except when riding no hands. Since you weigh significantly more than I do you will not be blown around as much. 

The newer rim profiles are much less affected by side winds than the older design rims I have been using.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

TJay74 said:


> .... Bontrager has already said the weight on the wheels will be fine and *they lifetime warranty the wheels.*


Just FYI - you might want to look into that warranty, because lifetime is NOT consistent with their published warranty.

Good luck.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

TJay74 said:


> Not wanting anything that deep, max is 30-40mm that I am after at this point. Sure I can ask the shop to call those companies but that is assuming the owner of the shop wants to pay the money and or do what is needed to become a seller for either of them. I tried asking that question last year on another issue and was not able to get them to do it.
> 
> I already have a set of Alum rims that I ride on that work great.
> 
> ...


I think the point most of us are making is to stop screwing around with ordering pre-built wheels. 

You've already laid out a bunch of money.

Tell your LBS to stop ordering wheels. Instead, take the money you've spent to order wheels, and have them order some parts and have the LBS build wheels that will work FOR YOU. Surely they can build wheels at this shop, yes?

If you're getting things "a little over cost" it would be worth it to spend a few dollars more and let them build wheels that will work.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

TJay74 said:


> I did, I read every one of them. Did you read where I don't have a choice as the money I spent on the DA wheels I cant get back? The LBS I got to doesn't really do custom builds, so I am stuck with what they can get in and order. My options are limited in this regards.



The LBS is going to start following you around to see if you are running an Appliance moving business on the bike...


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

robdamanii said:


> ...
> Tell your LBS to stop ordering wheels. Instead, take the money you've spent to order wheels, and have them order some parts and have the LBS build wheels that will work FOR YOU. Surely they can build wheels at this shop, yes?


Apparently, you missed it:



TJay74 said:


> ... *The LBS I got to doesn't really do custom builds*, so I am stuck with what they can get in and order. My options are limited in this regards.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

robt57 said:


> The LBS is going to start following you around to see if you are running an Appliance moving business on the bike...


I think he's a former power lifter, who's become a power pedaler.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ibericb said:


> Apparently, you missed it:


So they can't build a wheel?

I've never, EVER heard of a LBS that refuses to build a wheelset, let alone for someone that races for them...


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

robdamanii said:


> So they can't build a wheel?
> 
> I've never, EVER heard of a LBS that refuses to build a wheelset, let alone for someone that races for them...


Well, now you have. See MikeT's dialog earlier, in reply to my question, _"Does kind of make you wonder about that LBS, doesn't it?"_.

I'm not surprised they don't build wheels. They probably service them for regular truing, the OP mentioned re-tensioning, but not much more. It's not that uncommon in our modern retail world. If you want custom they may give you a name, or work as a middle man and mark-up the builder's price, but that's about it for many shops.

What surprises me is that the shop hasn't better advised the OP after his initial failure with the Mavics, followed then by the Reynolds, both of which I believe were 20f/24r. They then helped him into a set of Shimanos at 16/20, with unsurprising results, and now they are offering Bontrager 20/24? Really? How are those materially different than the Mavics or the Reynolds? 

There's an often cited definition of insanity, and I think it is quite appropriate in this case. What I question is do they even understand wheel basics, and have a clue what the OP's needs are?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ibericb said:


> There's an often cited definition of insanity, and I think it is quite appropriate in this case. What I question is do they even understand wheel basics, and have a clue what the OP's needs are?


The sentence of the week, right here. I did a re-count; make that two sentences.


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## waterlogged (Aug 29, 2009)

Get the warranty wheels and sell them to a lighter person while still new. Buy these in a 28h or 32h build and pocket the difference. 

November Bicycles: Race smart. - Alloy Nimbus Ti Wheelsets


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> I did a re-count; make that two sentences.


That's better. I was worried about you for a moment.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

I am in South Florida.I have taken my Fuji to Urban rides which can be rough, I ride a lot of Brevet and RUSA style rides, so if it rains for 4 hours, I keep riding.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Question TJay74 - why not just ask for a refund? So far every OEM has taken the wheels back. The loss for the LBS is the sale. But from everything you shared here, they really can't meet your needs. You have plenty of viable options, just not with this LBS. It's nice that the owner is a friend and very supportive, but really, this is business.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ibericb said:


> That's better. I was worried about you for a moment.


It's been a stressful day. I'm two rums deep. Something's gotta give and it was counting. :crazy:


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> It's been a stressful day. I'm two rums deep. Something's gotta give and it was counting. :crazy:


Only two? You've got some more work to do beofre the day is over.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Only two? You've got some more work to do beofre the day is over.


I'm a cheap drunk with low tolerance. Urrp.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> I'm a cheap drunk with low tolerance. Urrp.


Do I need to repeat myself? You have more work to do.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> It's been a stressful day. I'm two rums deep. Something's gotta give and it was counting. :crazy:


given his counting performance, or lack there to.... I suspect he may have lost count on the grog possibly...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Do I need to repeat myself? You have more work to do.


Shhhh. I'm flat on my back. Thank god for light laptops.


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## cohiba7777 (Jul 6, 2006)

MMsRepBike said:


> You are very heavy for your height. I'm not going to call you fat, who knows, maybe you're all muscle... but I am going to tell you to only ride 32 spoke wheels.


I will - because I am only a little taller and 10 pounds heavier!!!

My friend - we borderline  Clydesdale riders need IMHO 32 spoke wheels at a minimum - some will say even more. I had Ksyriums myself and had some of same issues you are experiencing for 2 years. I went last year to a HED Belgium 25mm rim on King R45 hubs and Sapim spokes - they are literally bomb proof and I ride daily with literally no wheel issue whatsover - even reduced my pinch flat rate by an easy 80%! 

Get some good handbuilt wheels that are spec'd to your size and riding habits - my build was about $1100 for the set and I'll never but a factory set again. Not to say factory builds are bad in any way - I think you just need a set tailored more to your riding style and body weight. Good luck!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

robt57 said:


> given his counting performance, or lack there to.... I suspect he may have lost count on the grog possibly...


It's not easy being me. I'm into the 15yr old El Dorado now.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

robt57 said:


> given his counting performance, or lack there to.... I suspect he may have lost count on the grog possibly...


only amateurs count


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

TJay74 said:


> Yes I do stand, on almost all climbs...
> 
> I do rock the bike, not so much on normal climbs, but if I am riding with friends and the competitive side is there it can turn into a sprint climb out of the saddle with a more aggressive rock so I am sure that is not helping at all.


When you lean the bike and then put all your weight + power while standing on one pedal the forces are very different than when seated and vertical. Standing is likely OK, but combination standing, big power/weight AND big rocking is killing the wheels. 
If you ride like that, you need more spokes to resist the huge side forces you are putting on the wheels. That means more than 24 in the rear. Maybe these, 24/28 with 25 tires
HED Ardennes Plus CL Road Wheelset - Clincher | Competitive Cyclist


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks for the input, I have been reading the info and posing the questions to the shop manager as well.

We spoke in detail about a customer build, they can go thru QBP (I think) to get hubs, spokes and nipples. They have some sources for carbon rims as well, shop mgr only concern is warranty on a custom wheel set afterwards. If the wheel has issues outside of minor truing it will put all of the cost back on me other than what each manufacture will allow for the implied warranty on the parts.

We then went over 3 riders that ride for the shop on the road, all 3 riders are 6'+ and 225+ and are either running on the Bontrager RXL or the Aeolus 3/5 wheels. All 3 of them race in road crits and have not had an issue with either of the above wheel sets.

A refund to walk away is not an option and I can understand that, it has been 4-5 months since purchase (only the Shimano DA wheels came from this shop, the Mavic and Reynolds came from another shop (who dropped the ball, pointed fingers and refused to step up and help out without charging me). By then I had joined the team for the current LBS shop and started racing MTB for them. At that point they stepped in to help with the Reynolds wheels before eventually Reynolds directly purchased the wheels back from me.

With that out there, just going to roll with it this way for now. Shop is making a great deal on the Bontragers, shop is one of Trek/Bontragers highest volume stores for our market and with that said they would have no problems getting Bontrager to stand behind the wheels. In any case at the rate I have been going this is my last test, if these don't work then I will have them warrantied out for a new set and then sell them and go another route.

I have someone that can build the wheels that I trust, he makes custom bikes and is a very accomplished mechanic. Just anything I buy from him will be at full retail. If I go that route I will buy the parts thru my LBS I am dealing with now and have this other mechanic build the wheels for me.

So backup plan is in place, only bad is it will cost a decent amount to implement it if I have to, off the hip guess will be around $500-1000 assuming I can sell a brand new set of Bontrager Aeolus 3 which are $2600 retail for around $1750.

Back up plan is:

28r/24f
DT Swiss 240 hubs
Aero spokes

Now to find out if Enve, Reynolds or Boyds offer a 28 spoke wheel.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

TJay74 said:


> Thanks for the input, I have been reading the info and posing the questions to the shop manager as well.
> ...
> Now to find out if Enve, Reynolds or Boyds offer a 28 spoke wheel.


Sounds very reasonable, and the shop owner sounds like a good dude.

As for 28h carbon - yes Boyd has 28h stock wheels - see the links I posted previously. But, there shallowest rim is 44mm.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

TJay74 said:


> Thanks for the input, I have been reading the info and posing the questions to the shop manager as well.
> 
> We spoke in detail about a customer build, they can go thru QBP (I think) to get hubs, spokes and nipples. They have some sources for carbon rims as well, shop mgr only concern is warranty on a custom wheel set afterwards. If the wheel has issues outside of minor truing it will put all of the cost back on me other than what each manufacture will allow for the implied warranty on the parts.
> 
> ...


Enve does a 28H rim. I've seen a couple built up for our big boys (AKA my lead out man.)


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

November Rail 34s can have a 28-count rear wheel, but it doesn't appear the 52s are offered with more than a 24-count for the rear. If you're willing to do alloy, their build uses Pacenti SL23 V2 rims, Sapim Laser spokes which you can get 24/28, and the Nimbus Ti hubs (essentially WI T11s but 7 grams heavier) for $585. That's a steal, and for $80 more you can get CX-Rays instead.

If you're dead set on a custom carbon build, you should also ask ergott for a quote. He would probably use a combination of CX-Ray spokes and DT Swiss Aerolites to handle the power you put into your wheels. If he can't build a set that lasts, you might want to consider hanging up the cape and cowl.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

Prowheelbuilder.com only shows Boyds and Enve and only the Boyd show the option of a 28h rear, so it is an option. They came in at 1550g on the site.

Wheelbuilder.com showed a Reynolds Assault SLG in a 28h as well, waiting on an email from them to confirm for sure. If so the online build shows 1435g and the same price as the Boyds set (slightly under $2k).

So looks like my bath wont be super bad if the Bontrager don't work out, should know in the coming days. Wheels will be here this weekend, waiting on Giant to send out some warranty brakes as the shop and Giant believe since my frame was one of the first Propel frames sold that I have the defective early release brakes. May explain why the pads wont drop far enough down to get on the brake tracks on the Bontrager Aeolus rims.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Boyd Cycling 44mm carbon clinchers.

1498 g for the 24/28 set
$1420 direct from Boyd


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

Update as of today

So far have a little over 100 miles on them since I mounted them up last Wednesday. Swapped over the 18t star ratchet for a 36t I had in the drawer. Wheels are running true with no signs at all of tension loss. Put them thru a pretty good pace the other night with the shops Monday night ride, lots of hills with several that had some out of the saddle sprints.

I am liking them so far. Found a couple of issues with the TRP brakes on the bike, fixed a couple of them but cant get them centered. Shop told me there was a recall from Giant on these so just waiting for the new calipers to get here this week.

I have the back up set in mind if these fail, hoping though these will finally be the ones that last.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

TJay74 said:


> Update as of today
> 
> So far have a little over 100 miles on them since I mounted them up last Wednesday. Swapped over the 18t star ratchet for a 36t I had in the drawer. Wheels are running true with no signs at all of tension loss. Put them thru a pretty good pace the other night with the shops Monday night ride, lots of hills with several that had some out of the saddle sprints.
> 
> ...


For the brakes, dump 'em and get Ultegra or DA. TRP are garbage...


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

Cant do that on the Giant Propel, it is an Aero frame and the TRP brakes are the only ones that work on the frame. They are a cantilever style brake so they don't have a center mounting bolt like the DA and Ultegra use otherwise I would have already swapped over.

The TRP have done fine, the new ones are revised and included a feature now where you can go from wide to narrow wheels without having to adjust the brake cable. Only thing I did notice and fixed on the stock set is the mounting bolt system. It was not machined to spec and wasn't allowing the caliper to bolt down fully. Got that fixed but the centering system still doesn't work worth a flip.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

TJay74 said:


> Cant do that on the Giant Propel, it is an Aero frame and the TRP brakes are the only ones that work on the frame. They are a cantilever style brake so they don't have a center mounting bolt like the DA and Ultegra use otherwise I would have already swapped over.
> 
> The TRP have done fine, the new ones are revised and included a feature now where you can go from wide to narrow wheels without having to adjust the brake cable. Only thing I did notice and fixed on the stock set is the mounting bolt system. It was not machined to spec and wasn't allowing the caliper to bolt down fully. Got that fixed but the centering system still doesn't work worth a flip.


I was sure shimano started making brakes for aero frames, but I could definitely be wrong...


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

Wow, you are right. I looked several months ago and TRP was the only one making them. May have to see if my dealer can get me a set in to look at and see if they will work.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Maybe I'm missing something, but from this pic it doesn't look like you'd be limited to one brake option.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

those are not the brakes the Propel uses, these are the ones. Does look like the cable entrance on the Shimano brakes might have some clearance issues.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

TJay74 said:


> Reynolds deemed the rims defective, sent the shop 2 new rims, new spokes and nipples. Shop rebuilt the wheels and once again tensioned per Reynolds specs. Same outcome, made it about 150 miles before wheels would not hold true. Then to top it off I was breaking a spoke every week or so. Reynolds then asked for the wheels back and directly refunded me my money. A month or so later Reynolds called me to say they found the issue, wheels were built with the wrong spokes from what they told me.


Did I miss something, or did no one else find this paragraph in the OP to be troubling???

If Reynolds sent your shop rims, spokes and nipple... then when your wheel failed determined the wheels were built with the wrong spokes...

I think someone in that shop is subtly trying to kill you.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

Wrong spokes, that Reynolds sent. Shop used what Reynolds sent them, but in hindsight after reading the comments and suggestions in here my better guess is going to be my big butt shouldn't have been on a set of 20 spoke rear wheels, even though Reynolds knew my weight.

I had crash protection on those wheels, even offered to let Reynolds use that as a way to get me into a stronger setup but they declined saying they felt they could get the wheels to work. In the long run it didn't work out, still Reynolds did more than I expected and I was surprised when Reynolds stepped up and personally wrote the check to buy the wheels back from me.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

TJay74 said:


> those are not the brakes the Propel uses, these are the ones. Does look like the cable entrance on the Shimano brakes might have some clearance issues.


Wow... V-brakes


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Somewhere in this convoluted story are a couple candidates for the Darwin Award.


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