# Carbon Fiber Frame with Cold Weather -5 Degrees



## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

What's up. I was wondering if carbon fiber can withstand extreme cold weather like -5 degrees wind chill -25 degrees. I was thinking about going for a ride Sunday morning but temps are dangerously low and my bike frame is carbon fiber which got me thinking it possibly could crack from being fragile from the weather and hitting bumps in the road. Looking for opinions because I have no knowledge of carbon fiber properties and temps.

Thanks,
Mar


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## L_Johnny (Jul 15, 2006)

Wait for it.... 










It will Assplode!


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Carbon fiber is extremely susceptible to wind chill, so don't even think about it.

You need a Ti or steel framed bike for those kind of conditions.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

You'd be better off worrying about frostbite.


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## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

Is that F or C? If it's C, no problem, it's done all the time. F is also no problem, I've tried that too.

If you're talking K or R, then you're totally ****ed.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

commercial aircraft with CF bits operate at altitudes where ambient temps are below -65F and they don't seem to have any problems...

don't think your bike will suffer any catastrophic failures at a wimpy -5...


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Technical FAQ: Carbon in cold conditions - VeloNews.com


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I think OP should listen to the voices of experience here, rather than random articles on the internet.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

.je said:


> Is that F or C? If it's C, no problem, it's done all the time. F is also no problem, I've tried that too.
> 
> If you're talking K or R, then you're totally ****ed.


Yeah, -5 K would be in some pretty strange territory.


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

Only a problem if it's snowing out.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

gofast2wheeler said:


> What's up. I was wondering if carbon fiber can withstand extreme cold weather like -5 degrees wind chill -25 degrees.


BTW, windchill is totally irrelevant to discussion of any inert object. The object won't get any colder than the air temperature, regardless of the wind. Windchill is a measure of how quickly heat is removed, and it's only meaningful to something that has an internal heat source (like a living body).


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

JCavilia said:


> Yeah, -5 K would be in some pretty strange territory.


It's not that bad, only -468.67 Fahrenheit


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

bikerjulio said:


> I think OP should listen to the voices of experience here, rather than random articles on the internet.




“CF (carbon fiber) components are used extensively in launch/reentry vehicles and satellites where the temperatures range from superheated to near absolute zero. The ultra low CTE (Coefficient of Thermal Expansion) of carbon fiber make it ideal for these temperature extremes. I find it very hard to believe that a bicycle sustained damage during winter storage in a cold garage – regardless of the earthly location. I have seen “green” (not fully cured) paints and top coats crack in extreme temperature conditions but never a CF composite structure.

Read more at Technical FAQ: Carbon in cold conditions - VeloNews.com

I would put stock in Leonard Z's answer over some random opinions on the internet.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Of course anyone experienced in these forums is familiar with Leonard Zinn and Sheldon Brown. Excellent resources and from reputable resources.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

SantaCruz said:


> “CF (carbon fiber) components are used extensively in launch/reentry vehicles and satellites where the temperatures range from superheated to near absolute zero. The ultra low CTE (Coefficient of Thermal Expansion) of carbon fiber make it ideal for these temperature extremes. I find it very hard to believe that a bicycle sustained damage during winter storage in a cold garage – regardless of the earthly location. I have seen “green” (not fully cured) paints and top coats crack in extreme temperature conditions but never a CF composite structure.
> 
> Read more at Technical FAQ: Carbon in cold conditions - VeloNews.com
> 
> I would put stock in Leonard Z's answer over some random opinions on the internet.


As much as I love Zinn ( and don't disagree with the conclusion).....

His answer referencing CF component durability by looking at CF use in satellites, is about as way-out-there as talking about bicycle tires by referring to the properties of the tires on the SR-71 or a 747.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Zinn's point was that Carbon survives in colder environments than the op was talking about. Bike companies are a small percentage of fiber consumption. It's built for aero-space companies such as Boeing and bike companies just get to purchase what's out there.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Trek_5200 said:


> Zinn's point was that Carbon survives in colder environments than the op was talking about. Bike companies are a small percentage of fiber consumption. It's built for aero-space companies such as Boeing and bike companies just get to purchase what's out there.


It is about how you work it.

Instead of epoxy I could use animal-hide glue. And suddenly you'd have a bicycle frame that literally turns into a puddle that stinks to high-hell in your car on a hot summer day. It is still "carbon" and "carbon fiber". While an extreme example, and no one in their right minds would use hide-glue in such an application, CF is just a fabric it is what you do with it that makes it bendy or strong.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Clearly, all CF is not equal.

I'd be very concerned about your bike shattering like a cheap vase knocked off of a second floor balcony if you hit even the smallest bump.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm thinking about a new niche, CF bike booties. Will keep the frame from getting chilled. Optional wet weather package.


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

JCavilia said:


> BTW, windchill is totally irrelevant to discussion of any inert object. The object won't get any colder than the air temperature, regardless of the wind. Windchill is a measure of how quickly heat is removed, and it's only meaningful to something that has an internal heat source (like a living body).


Thank you, finally someone with knowledge and wisdom.


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

Should be fine, just don't let it warm up too fast when you're done (see pic) and don't put your tongue on the frame.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

In sunlight, carbon can suddenly expand and cause rapid unscheduled disassembly events. In extreme cold, carbon can suddenly contract and cause gravity space-time fluctuations, resulting in artificially lowered STRAVA segment times. Just don't get to close to the frame or you run the danger of crossing the event horizon and/or being emitted as Hawking's radiation, which would not be UCI legal.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Good advice from the Smile Doctor.

If it's sunny, and the sun is hitting one side of your bike while the intense cold is hitting the other side of your bike, you could wind up with two half-bikes when your bike splits right down the middle, catastrophically, I might add.

At the very least, I'd recommend wearing a protector jock, if you're a dude.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks for the responses some interesting info. Temp °F. I decided not to ride because I do not have shoe booties and my shoes are to vented for this wind chill. Stay warm if you ride.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> Zinn's point was that Carbon survives in colder environments than the op was talking about. Bike companies are a small percentage of fiber consumption. It's built for aero-space companies such as Boeing and bike companies just get to purchase what's out there.


According to this article, "the total amount of carbon used by all bike makers in a year is less than in three Boeing 787 Dreamliners". I find it bit hard to believe bikes account for so little, and it is Bicycling magazine, but it could be correct

Carbon Fiber Bike Construction | Bicycling


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

DaveG said:


> According to this article, "the total amount of carbon used by all bike makers in a year is less than in three Boeing 787 Dreamliners". I find it bit hard to believe bikes account for so little, and it is Bicycling magazine, but it could be correct
> 
> Carbon Fiber Bike Construction | Bicycling


I could believe it. A bicycle frame only needs 5 square meter of fabric that is the layered up in plies per DIY instructions. Who knows how many square meters of CF cloth is needed for even 1x 787. Heck, the 787 is 50% carbon-fiber composite by weight.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Roland44 said:


> It's not that bad, only -468.67 Fahrenheit


The problem is it's below absolute zero, so some fundamental law of physics would have to be changed for it to be possible. As I said, strange territory.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

JCavilia said:


> BTW, windchill is totally irrelevant to discussion of any inert object. The object won't get any colder than the air temperature, regardless of the wind. Windchill is a measure of how quickly heat is removed, and it's only meaningful to something that has an internal heat source (like a living body).


I always get a chuckle out of peoples misconception of wind chill. Like if they're in a car and complain about the -5 wind chill. Uhhh no, you don't feel a wind chill in your car. 
I have a riding buddy who's always worried about wind chill in the winter. Before the ride he'll comment, "the 10mph wind is going to make it colder". Uhhh no, we'll be riding faster than that. There's always a 15-25mph wind chill when you ride.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

that said, i'm better able to cope with riding in 29 degrees, no wind and sunny vs 29 degrees dark cloudy and windy.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

OP, don't listen to these guys. Your bike is fine unless you have scratches on it. Even one scratch on your frame is dangerous as the UV rays will penetrate the matrix seriously weakening the CF. Also, you should know that CF frames only last maybe 5 years due to their exposure to atmospheric gases like CO2 and nitrogen. The CF becomes de-carbonized as these gases, and water vapor, are reintroduced into the atomic structure causing the once stiff and strong CF to become more like a wet noodle. Otherwise, your bike will be fine at -5C, -5F, or -5K, but it may not be able to dampen road vibrations as well.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Tachycardic said:


> OP, don't listen to these guys. Your bike is fine unless you have scratches on it. Even one scratch on your frame is dangerous as the UV rays will penetrate the matrix seriously weaken the CF. Also, you should know that CF frames only last maybe 5 years due to their exposure to atmospheric gases like CO2 and nitrogen. The CF becomes de-carbonized as these gases, and water vapor, are reintroduced into the atomic structure causing the once stiff and strong CF to become more like a wet noodle. Otherwise, your bike will be fine at -5C, -5F, or -5K, but it may not be able to dampen road vibrations as well.


Carbon fiber frames do not have a five year life span. This is absurd.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Trek_5200 said:


> Carbon fiber frames do not have a five year life span. This is absurd.



Oh dear. You thought I was being serious.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

apologies. but i've seen this same opinion voiced in a serious way that carbon fiber frames degrade. My Trek which I'm only now thinking of selling to make room for a Firefly is 15 years old.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

SPlKE said:


> Good advice from the Smile Doctor.
> 
> If it's sunny, and the sun is hitting one side of your bike while the intense cold is hitting the other side of your bike, you could wind up with two half-bikes when your bike splits right down the middle, catastrophically, I might add.
> 
> At the very least, I'd recommend wearing a protector jock, if you're a dude.


Well, there's that too. Let's not forget a lot of these bike are made in Chinese factories by foreigners. So the ones that aren't programmed to shatter in the cold are very likely planted with listening devices and hidden cameras to steel American secrets. The CIA knows about this. You think it's a coincidence that John Kerry rides a Serotta?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Well, there's that too. Let's not forget a lot of these bike are made in Chinese factories by foreigners. So the ones that aren't programmed to shatter in the cold are very likely planted with listening devices and hidden cameras to steel American secrets.


Are the foreigners working in the Chinese factories foreign to China or when they leave China on their paid vacation?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

was thinking the same thing, the foreigners in china might be americans


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

velodog said:


> Are the foreigners working in the Chinese factories foreign to China or when they leave China on their paid vacation?


They're foreigners period... Would you trust these guys?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

velodog said:


> Are the foreigners working in the Chinese factories foreign to China or when they leave China on their paid vacation?


I take it self-deprecating humor isn't something you have a knack for spotting. Did you really think I said that with a straight face to be taken literally?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

DrSmile said:


> They're foreigners period... Would you trust these guys?



Not on my bike !


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Trek_5200 said:


> was thinking the same thing, the foreigners in china might be americans


They didn't have to go all the way to China just to find a job, did they?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I take it self-deprecating humor isn't something you have a knack for spotting. Did you really think I said that with a straight face to be taken literally?


Without , who can tell.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Although humor was apparent as early as post #2 in this thread, some participants seem immune to satire. 

I was neg-repped :cryin: and acused of bullying 

some people need to lighten up. (get it? Carbon - lighten up :7


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> They're foreigners period... Would you trust these guys?


They know a thing or two about ice cold.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

bikerjulio said:


> Although humor was apparent as early as post #2 in this thread, some participants seem immune to satire.
> 
> I was neg-repped :cryin: and acused of bullying
> 
> some people need to lighten up. (get it? Carbon - lighten up :7



I tried to positive rep you to restore some balance, but alas...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bikerjulio again.

I find it hard to believe that you were neg. repped on those grounds, but it just shows to go you.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

bikerjulio said:


> Although humor was apparent as early as post #2 in this thread, some participants seem immune to satire.
> 
> I was neg-repped :cryin: and acused of bullying
> 
> some people need to lighten up. (get it? Carbon - lighten up :7


You have got to be kidding. I did not even find it micro-aggressive as viewed from my safe place.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2016)

velodog said:


> I tried to positive rep you to restore some balance, but alas...
> 
> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bikerjulio again.


Taken care of. I just rode my new 566 on a sub-freezing ride this weekend. Awesome.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

bikerjulio said:


> Although humor was apparent as early as post #2 in this thread, some participants seem immune to satire.
> 
> I was neg-repped :cryin: and acused of bullying
> 
> some people need to lighten up. (get it? Carbon - lighten up :7


Humor is sometimes difficult to discern in these threads...particularly sarcasm or irony. 

Those who might be quick to hand out negative rep might reconsider the post as humor and see if that perspective changes their opinion.

I understood your humor, BTW.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

tlg said:


> I always get a chuckle out of peoples misconception of wind chill. Like if they're in a car and complain about the -5 wind chill. Uhhh no, you don't feel a wind chill in your car.
> I have a riding buddy who's always worried about wind chill in the winter. Before the ride he'll comment, "the 10mph wind is going to make it colder". Uhhh no, we'll be riding faster than that. There's always a 15-25mph wind chill when you ride.


Yeah, good points. Cyclists always have "wind chill," and the impact of the one the weatherman announces depends entirely on how fast you're going, and what direction. Sometimes you even get a "negative wind chill", where the presence of ambient wind makes you feel _warmer_. On several cold days commuting this winter, a tailwind reduced my personal windchill. The weather guy calculation was based on the 15-mph wind speed, but going 20 mph with the wind at my back I only experience 5 mph. I'd have been colder if there were no wind.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

JCavilia said:


> Yeah, good points. Cyclists always have "wind chill," and the impact of the one the weatherman announces depends entirely on how fast you're going, and what direction. Sometimes you even get a "negative wind chill", where the presence of ambient wind makes you feel _warmer_. On several cold days commuting this winter, a tailwind reduced my personal windchill. The weather guy calculation was based on the 15-mph wind speed, but going 20 mph with the wind at my back I only experience 5 mph. I'd have been colder if there were no wind.


That's great. When you find a way to ride to and from where you start and always have a tail wind let us know. Until then I'm going to factor in wind when getting dressed for a ride.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

frons said:


> Taken care of. I just rode my new 566 on a sub-freezing ride this weekend. Awesome.


Thanks

As far as the sub-freezing ride, You're a better man than me.

P.S. 
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to frons again.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> That's great. When you find a way to ride to and from where you start and always have a tail wind let us know. Until then I'm going to factor in wind when getting dressed for a ride.


Chances are probably better you'll have a head wind both ways.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I know, I know. 

I was shocked that an obvious joke was taken seriously.

Perhaps the owner of a certain brand has become overly thin skinned after years of having been asked if they make good bikes  (that was a joke, OK?)

Anyway I'm going to take the momentous occasion of my 6,100th post here to say a big thank you for all the kind words of support and understanding.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Trek_5200 said:


> that said, i'm better able to cope with riding in 29 degrees, no wind and sunny vs 29 degrees dark cloudy and windy.


Of course, but it's not a function of "wind chill" as such. Riding in wind is more difficult regardless of the temperature (unless it's a pure tailwind), the sun provides some direct radiant warming, and psychologically you often feel worse if it's cloudy. Though as I noted in another post, if that wind is at your back you'll be warmer than with no wind.


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