# 11 speed Campagnolo front derailleurs better than 10 speed?



## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

I prefer the operation of my 28,000+ mile 10s Record CT FD over my SR 11 speed, and I am curious as to how others feel. I've used Campy for a long time and I always thought the only "weakness" Campagnolo ever had was the FD operation. There has always been too much play in the system for me.

In December of 08, I started using 2009 SR 11s, except I kept my old 10s Crankset and FD. Voila, FD slop gone! The new shifter cable pull was all it took to give me excellent FD performance.

I loved my 10s, but the 11s is simply brilliant. I was going to keep 10s on one of my bikes until I experienced how good 11s is. So I caught a good sale at Ribble when the $ was strong and picked up the 11s crankset and FD, plus another set of 11s shifters and RD, and moved the 10s crank and FD to the other bike.

I have a great mechanic, and I had him install the 11s FD since he was doing the 11s crankset. Normally when I pick a bike up from him it's good to go. In this case, I couldn't believe how poorly the FD shifted. I stopped by the next day, and he said, "This is like working on a Ferrari!" Hmmm...

Of course, as it turned out for some reason I have problems with installation of the 11s FD on my Tarmac SL2. Neither of us ever could get the cage to stay set up parallel after the bolt was torqued to spec. So I moved the 11s FD to the other bike with the 10s crank, and my old 10s CT to the bike with the new 11s! The 11s sets up well on the other bike, and I'll use it, but I prefer the 10s.

My Tarmac is the bike I ride hard and race on. With the 10s CT, I can use all of the gears I need to without trimming on either ring, and the inner plate of the CT acts like a "chain catcher". I probably could drop the chain if I tried really hard, but I'd have to work at it. In short, I don't have to think about anything. I have things set up so that the shift to the 50T easily goes straight to the 4th click position. From the 4th click, I can cross-chain cleanly all of the way to the second biggest cog. If the 11s FD shifts to the big ring faster, I can't perceive it; the 10s shifts super fast. The 10s was easy to set up this way.

With the 11s, despite meticulous fine tuning of the limits and cable tension, I have to trim on the 34 when I get about halfway through the cogs, and I have to trim the 50T as well. This is not something I want to deal with when riding hard. The 11s FD does not follow the curvature of the 50T ring nearly as well as the CT, and the more traditional inner plate doesn't give me a lot of confidence that I won't drop the chain with a quick shift under power.

So I have a very used 10s CT that I prefer over a 11s FD. As a matter of fact, the 11s is the first piece of Campagnolo kit that I am not happy with the design and performance. From what I understand from comments on this forum, a QS CT FD would work even better than my non-QS. I'll be looking on ebay for a 2007 CT QS. Anyone want to work a trade?


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Too bad about your experience. I ran a Record 11s FD on a 50/36 10s FSA crankset and 10s groupset for a while without any problems. The only thing I noticed is that the cage is slightly narrower so I had to trim a little bit more often than before.

Now I have the same Chorus 11s FD, with a Chorus 11s crankset, and otherwise a Chorus 10s drivetrain, and I also don't have a problem. 

Hopefully you'll find a good solution to your problem(s).


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

Like I said, I am fine using the 11s FD on another bike. Maybe I am just spoiled, but it's really nice not to have to trim the FD at all like with the 10s.

I guess Campy was just trying to differentiate the product by making it narrower and faster shifting (according to Campy). After all, a front derailleur is a front derailleur isn't it? I guess that is what I always thought.

Seems like a step backward to require trimming. When 11s first came out, I wondered why there were pictures of pros like Boonen using a 10s FD. 

I'm just curious as to whether others like the 10s better.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

When QS came out, the FD was also made to be CT or standard crank compatible.

I have used both and have little preference, except that the 10 speed FD is probably easier to dial-in, since it's got a wider cage. I've never dropped a chain with an 11 speed FD in use with a compact crank.

The 11 speed FD can be set up such that it require no trimming at all from the big ring and only if the smallest 2-3 cogs are used with the little ring.

As long as you have a frame mounted cable tension adjuster, it should not be difficult to set up this FD. All FD installs start the same way - setting the height and aligning the right side of the cage parallel to the big ring. The next step is to shift to the little ring and largest cog, with the shift cable not attached to the FD. Adjust the limit screw so there is a small clearance between the left side of the cage and chain. 

Be sure that the shifter is in the little ring position, then attach the cable properly, with as much tension as can be applied by pulling on the cable with pliers. You can try shifting up to the big ring immediately, but most often you will need more cable tension. When you have the big ring limit screw set properly, there will be a small amount of clearance between the right side of the cage and the chain. The proper tension is reached when it requires 3 clicks of the finger lever to shift to the big ring. With this setup, you should be able to use at least the 10th cog with the big ring (all you should use) and perhaps the 11th. One important point to note is that there is NO trim click with the finger lever, with this setup. One click will create chain rub instead of just trimming the FD cage to the left.

If it requires 4 clicks of the finger lever, two things could need adjustment. You may just have inadequate cable tension. Try increasing it. You only have too much tension if you lift the FD off the small ring limit screw. The other thing to check is the big ring limit screw. If it allows the cage to move too far to the right, that will require the fourth click and it will create the need to trim the FD to stop chain rub at around the 7th cog. I had my FD setup this way for a long time and it never caused any problem, other than the need to occasionally trim the FD. I never dropped a chain and the FD shifted just fine. My frames didn't have frame mounted cable tension adjusters, so this setup was much easier to use. With no cable tension adjuster, I increased tension by deliberately turning the low limit screw in (CW) about 1/4 to 3/4 turn, attached the cable, then returned the screw to it's proper position. The more the screw is turned in when the cable is attached, the greater the increase in tension. It's certainly easier if you have a tension adjuster on the frame.

The 3-click setup is the only way to avoid the need for a trim click from the big ring.


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

What a great forum. I guess I should expect that from a group of people who love Campagnolo. 

I realize that my frustration showed with my original post, and I am sorry about that.

I have SR11 on two bikes, and both have 50-34 chainrings: a 2009 Tarmac SL2 and a Rodriguez custom steel bike. Both are size "56", but my steel bike has 415mm chainstays vs. 405mm for the Tarmac. The procedure C-40 described is what I used when setting up the FD, and I do have frame mounted tensioners on both bikes. 

One thing I just remembered that might shed some light on the "rotating" problem I have described: the 11s FD pretty closely follows the curvature of the 50T ring on the Rodriguez (the FD tail is actually closer to the chainring than the front), but on the Tarmac, the 11s FD tail would angle up quite a bit away from the chainring. This is why I was concerned about dropping the chain with that bike. On the Tarmac the CT FD curvature perfectly matches the 50T ring curvature, with the FD tail the same distance from the ring as the front. 

I just took the Rodriguez for a short ride and here is how it is set up. With a 10s Record crank and the 11s FD, on the 34 I don't need to trim until the 14 cog. That is no problem at all; I can certainly live with that. I don't ride in the 34-12, but I could as the chain doesn't even rub on the 50 ring. Perhaps the slightly wider 10s rings and the longer chainstays allow this.

The chain moves crisply up to the 50T with the third click. With the outer limit set correctly, I can easily use all 11 cogs without a hint of rub. Excellent! As you point out, there is no 4th click with this setup and no big ring trim, as none is needed. I love this setup! The problem is definitely not with the 11FD; the problem is how it mates with the Tarmac's braze-on.

With the Tarmac, I spent a lot of time just trying to get the da_n SR11 FD to not rotate on the braze-on when torqued. I never did, and this is not only frustrating, it is simply bizarre. I can't comprehend why this is happening. When I did try operating the FD (before fully tightening the bolt), I had to trim starting with the 34-15, and I had to trim when in the 50T. I never really got to the point of carefully setting the limits and cable tension, so maybe I could get things setup to work the same as with the Rodriguez. It doesn't seem likely that the 405mm chainstays would cause a problem with cross-chaining, as that is not a particularly short length. 

After I gave up trying to use the 11s FD with the Tarmac, I installed the old non-QS 10s CT. It works as follows: no trim needed at all with the 34, but in the 34-12 the chain rubs lightly on the 50T. The third click moves the chain smoothly (but not quite as crisply) up to the 50T, and no trim is required for 10 of the cogs. With the biggest cog (which of course I don't use), the chain rubs on the top of the FD, but not the side.

So I have the 10s FD working perfectly well with the 11s crank, and the 11s FD working brilliantly with the 10s crank. A workable solution, but not the best one--the SR FD is too good looking not to be paired with the 11s SR crank on the Tarmac! I think I am going to wait for a rainy day when I have some time before I mess with things again. I hope the only solution for the 11s FD on the Tarmac is not to try and bend the braze-on tab, because I don't think I want to go that route.

I've never had this "rotating" problem before, and it doesn't sound like anyone else has either. I think I will email Specialized. Are there any other Tarmac owners out there that have had the same problem with the FD rotating on the braze-on tab?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

tommyturbo said:


> I've never had this "rotating" problem before, and it doesn't sound like anyone else has either. I think I will email Specialized. Are there any other Tarmac owners out there that have had the same problem with the FD rotating on the braze-on tab?


If the tail of the RD absolutely won't align with the big ring, even if you give it some Kentucky windage, then bending the hanger is the solution. The Tarmac frame is not likely an issue. I had this same problem with a Colnago C-40 carbon frame and never gave it a thought. I just applied some pressure with the hex wrench in the clamp bolt and bent the hanger into alignment. I guess you could use a file or dremel tool to widen the slot, just in the offending area, but I'd be sure that the clamp bolt is really limited by the slot width first.


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## volubilis (Jan 2, 2009)

C-40 said:


> If the tail of the RD absolutely won't align with the big ring, even if you give it some Kentucky windage, then bending the hanger is the solution. The Tarmac frame is not likely an issue. I had this same problem with a Colnago C-40 carbon frame and never gave it a thought. I just applied some pressure with the hex wrench in the clamp bolt and bent the hanger into alignment. I guess you could use a file or dremel tool to widen the slot, just in the offending area, but I'd be sure that the clamp bolt is really limited by the slot width first.


Or, if the slot width is not limiting, and you just can't bring yourself to bend the hanger (mental auditory image of cracking sounds....), you might try slightly altering the arc of curvature of the concave surface of the radius washer with file or dremel, especially if you can eyeball or measure or make an impression of the hanger curve and can see that it varies from top to bottom. BTW, in your first thread you mentioned a K-Edge. I can report that I have my 2009 Record 11 FD set up with a K-Edge and 5mm spacer, 3-click as described by C-40, Record 11 compact, on my Ridley Noah with no FD shifting issues.


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

OK, thanks to your excellent ideas, I think I have a plan of attack. 

First, I'll try the Kentucky windage approach.

Just to make sure I understand C-40, are you suggesting doing the bending with just the bolt/wrench alone, or with the bolt tightened in the FD (helpful to see how much you need to bend it)? The Tarmac braze-on plate is pretty beefy, but it has an extension toward the rear of the bike where the 3rd and 4th rivets are. That gives me a little confidence that I could bend the tab without putting a concentrated force on the frame. 

I am not the world's worst mechanic, but I am closer to that than being good. I need to be cautious!

Before I attempt any bending, tomorrow I am going to stop by and see my regular mechanic to see if he has experience with this kind of thing. I am also going to get a hold of R&E Cycles (in Seattle, where I live). R&E built my steel frame (and use Campy almost exclusively with their bikes), and I have no doubt that they will have the expertise to safely bend the tab or alter the tab or washer as per Volubilis.

I'll let you know how it goes. 

Any thoughts on how the 11s FD should conform to the curvature of a 50T ring?

I look forward to reading this forum and learning.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*

I do the bending with the FD clamped in place. I've done it just by pushing on the long end of a hex wrench inserted into the clamp bolt.

As for the curve of the cage conforming to the big ring, it can't conform prefectly to both 50 and 53T rings. If the tail is high, it can also be due to the seat tube angle. Smaller frames that have STAs in the 74-75 degree range will raise the tail higher than those with 72-73 degrees angles. I've corrected that problem too, but only with frames that use a clamp-on FD. I buy a braze-on adpater, then use a dremel tool to grind the area where the FD mounts, to change the angle. It's rarely needed. Unless the cage has a special shape to it and the bumped-out area is not touching the chain when making the shift to the little ring, you'll gain nothing from changing that angle.


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

Can I assume that you don't believe the different chainline between 405mm and 415mm chainstays is enough to cause more chain rub issues when using the big ring?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*well...*



tommyturbo said:


> Can I assume that you don't believe the different chainline between 405mm and 415mm chainstays is enough to cause more chain rub issues when using the big ring?


My frames all have 405mm chainstays and I have no problems, but of course longer stays do reduce the chain angle slightly.


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

*10s vs.11s front derailleur update*

There is now no doubt in my mind that I prefer my old record CT FD than my new SR FD (used with a 11s SR compact crank). I now have the CT set up as follows: 1st click is for trim on small ring (but it's not required on any cog) 2nd click produces a super fast shift to the big ring--no trim required with any cog when in the big ring. From the big ring, one click works for big ring trim (but as I mentioned, this position is not needed) and two clicks smoothly drops the chain to the small ring.

I don't know how front derailleur shifting could be any more efficient than this. It's definitely the best any of my bikes have ever shifted. As a matter of fact, it's faster (and quieter!) than the Di2 Shimano that I tried on a trainer at a bike show. I normally do the one click because then the second click feels very similar to downshifting the rear to a larger cog! It's that smooth and fast, and I don't need to slow my cadence at all. 

The CT weighs 71g, exactly the same as my SR 11s FD.

I'll use my SR FD with my Record CT 10scrankset on the bike I ride most of the time in the winter, as it works well. I have to trim in the small ring, but that's OK.

My CT is a non-QS and has over 28,000 miles of use. Sooner or later everything wears out (even Campy), and when it does I'll be shopping ebay for an old CT to replace it.


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## willum44 (Oct 18, 2008)

I have just purchased a 11spd Record crankset for my 10spd Record QS drive train. Should I get an 11spd FD or stay with the 10spd QS. I also am considering Rotor rings.
Thanks for your suggestions.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

willum44 said:


> I have just purchased a 11spd Record crankset for my 10spd Record QS drive train. Should I get an 11spd FD or stay with the 10spd QS. I also am considering Rotor rings.
> Thanks for your suggestions.


since you are using a 10-spd crankset and chain, you should stick with the 10-spd FD. Even in 11-spd mode, a 10-spd FD will work fine.


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## willum44 (Oct 18, 2008)

bikerjulio said:


> since you are using a 10-spd crankset and chain, you should stick with the 10-spd FD. Even in 11-spd mode, a 10-spd FD will work fine.


Thanks Julio. Is it worth going to a Record FD from a Chorus. The weight is not an issue neither is the bling factor. Is the carbon sin the Record stiffer than the Chorus. Thanks.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

willum44 said:


> Thanks Julio. Is it worth going to a Record FD from a Chorus. The weight is not an issue neither is the bling factor. Is the carbon sin the Record stiffer than the Chorus. Thanks.


No, it isn't.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

willum44 said:


> Thanks Julio. Is it worth going to a Record FD from a Chorus. The weight is not an issue neither is the bling factor. Is the carbon sin the Record stiffer than the Chorus. Thanks.


Agree with OJ. The Record is not stronger, in fact probably weaker. If you are a "value" guy, then for 10-speed, current Veloce is the best deal.


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## willum44 (Oct 18, 2008)

Brilliant, I'll keep my Chorus FD 10spd for my new crankset and purchase a Veloce for the Chorus build.
thanks for all your help!


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Wanted to revisit this thread as I am considering upgrading my 10s Campy Centaur driveline to 11s.

Curious if forum opinion has changed? I have a Centaur 10s front derailleur that I will be running with Chorus UltraTorque Compact 10s crank and 10s chainrings and am considering change to 11s wheelset, 11s chain and Chorus 11s rear derailleur.

I am curious about functional differences in trimming. I presume the 10s FD has a slightly wider cage to accommodate a slightly wider 10s chain. For those with experience if you have tried the 10s front derailleur with 11s chain...does it require less trim touch up when cross chaining because the 11s chain has a bit more clearance to the cage? Any functional loss to shifting crispness resulting from a bit wider cage clearance to 11s chain with 10s FD? Since I don't like to trim much I am thinking the 10s cage maybe better than 11s FD provided there isn't loss in shifting quality.

Further thoughts?
Thanks

My FD below:


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

All I can say is that both my 11-spd bikes are using 10-spd FD's, one is also a 10-spd crankset, and no complaints at all. One of them is Athena which does not really have a FD trim function, and I can run the whole cassette without issue.

Don't know if there really is a difference in FD's anyway. There's a lot of assumptions out there.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> All I can say is that both my 11-spd bikes are using 10-spd FD's, one is also a 10-spd crankset, and no complaints at all. One of them is Athena which does not really have a FD trim function, and I can run the whole cassette without issue.
> 
> Don't know if there really is a difference in FD's anyway. There's a lot of assumptions out there.


Thanks for your comments bikerjulio...appreciate it.


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

I had forgotten that I had started this thread way back in 2010. I use a SR 11s FD and crank on my SW Tarmac SL4. On another bike, I am using a 10s Record crank and 10s CT FD with an otherwise SR 11s setup. In a nutshell, the 10s FD requires no trimming in either chainring. The 11s FD has to be trimmed when using the small ring with the last few smaller cogs, and when cross chaining from the big ring to the largest cog. Since I do neither very often, it's not a big deal. 

On the other hand, the 11s FD does shift a little quicker and more positively.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

tommyturbo said:


> I had forgotten that I had started this thread way back in 2010. I use a SR 11s FD and crank on my SW Tarmac SL4. On another bike, I am using a 10s Record crank and 10s CT FD with an otherwise SR 11s setup. In a nutshell, the 10s FD requires no trimming in either chainring. The 11s FD has to be trimmed when using the small ring with the last few smaller cogs, and when cross chaining from the big ring to the largest cog. Since I do neither very often, it's not a big deal.
> 
> On the other hand, the 11s FD does shift a little quicker and more positively.


Thanks for the insight Tommy...appreciate it.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

I agree with the overall sentiment: my 10sp Centaur FD performs better than my 11sp Athena FD. I've never switched them, but now I'm thinking I might.


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