# Should they have waited for Lance?



## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

Should the GC riders have waited for Lance when he fell. Discuss.


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## Frith (Oct 3, 2002)

No.

Everytime this topic comes up I feel less and less that people understand the subtleties of when the leaders wait for another rider.

Lance caught on to the group before getting dropped thus waiting for him was not necessary.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

It wouldnt have changed a thing


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

Frith said:


> No.
> 
> Everytime this topic comes up I feel less and less that people understand the subtleties of when the leaders wait for another rider.
> 
> Lance caught on to the group before getting dropped thus waiting for him was not necessary.


I didn't state an opinion either way, I just want to see what others think. I have to watch the coverage again, but I don't think he caught on. I think he lost a minute before the climb and he wasn't able to get back on.


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## rapidcarbon (Nov 20, 2008)

I think they should wait and then drop him again, then wait for him, and drop him again  j/k


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## jlwdm (Nov 7, 2009)

After the crash at high speed the team had to work to hard to get him back to the group and everyone was fried as the pace picked up on the climb. 

Easy to say after the fact that they should not have gone back for him. In real time though you have to support your team leader. If the pace had slowed down it would have been different.

Jeff


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

I stand corrected, I see he did get back. My bad.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Lance wasn't placed well enough in the GC to even merit the consideration.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

he got back into the main group after the crash but was dropped on the climb


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

All due respect to the 7-time winner, but no - he was not the only big name that had an accident and or got dropped - some made it back and some didn't - Lance had a bad day.
If his team dropped back to tow him up, Levi would have lost his shot at podium as well - RS knew they had to cut bait.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Name of the game atm is "Dodge all the wrecks". Despite how impossible and chance-wise it all is, I'm pretty sure Lance is going to put in a fight. Who knows? it might pay off when/if other GC riders end up in a tangle (not to curse them or anything).


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## ohvrolla (Aug 2, 2009)

NO. He's a former 7 time winner of the race, NOT the current race leader and only has an outside shot at best of making the podium.


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## cammccarty (Jul 21, 2008)

Lance who....


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## Chris Oz (Oct 8, 2005)

No, Lance would have never waited and even before the crash there was no expectation that he was going to podium this year or even possibly get close.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

It's a damn race people, No one should wait for someone else until they pass the finish line... Mamsy pansies....


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

Regarding waiting, maybe a better question is why'd Radio Shack waste Horner and Brajkovic on nurse duty to bring Armstrong home? Brajkovic and Horner were reasonably well placed in the GC (compared to Kloden especially) and looked to have good form today.


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## Crank-a-Roo (Mar 21, 2003)

JimT said:


> It's a damn race people, No one should wait for someone else until they pass the finish line... Mamsy pansies....


+1 Why should people wait for him???


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

gh1 said:


> It wouldnt have changed a thing


I sent you a PM regarding our wager. I had hoped he would last more than 8 stages, c'est la vie.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

they didnt need to wait, but they did anyway. if anything, that hurt him more. by the time they got back on, the GC contenders and teams had re-organized at the front of the bunch. it looked like the starting parade.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

AdamM said:


> Regarding waiting, maybe a better question is why'd Radio Shack waste Horner and Brajkovic on nurse duty to bring Armstrong home? Brajkovic and Horner were reasonably well placed in the GC (compared to Kloden especially) and looked to have good form today.


Agreed, especially Horner was sacrificed today. Lance was brought back up just fine. He just couldn't hang on the climb. Even without the crash, Lance would've merely have dropped back half a km later than where he did. Crash did not matter and is being overblown to show the weakness he has.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Well,, they did what they needed to do,, but they fried by the time they got back on.. Sky set such a hard pace that even top riders that were prepared eventually got dropped. Lance and boys had to practically sprint to get back on....

If it were on the flats or mid climb the other teams may have slowed, but not when emotions and nerves were so high on the beginning of the climb. They were so focused on hurting AC that all else did not matter...

It is racing after all....


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## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

moabbiker said:


> Agreed, especially Horner was sacrificed today. Lance was brought back up just fine. He just couldn't hang on the climb. Even without the crash, Lance would've merely have dropped back half a km later than where he did. Crash did not matter and is being overblown to show the weakness he has.


You obviously haven't seen the crash.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

cyclejim said:


> You obviously haven't seen the crash.


There ya go playin it up, some would consider it more of just a tumble with a 50 foot slide on his back at 60kph... Any immortal man without weakness could shake that off


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## thebike (Jun 9, 2010)

*thebike*

hold on everybody it was all part of a set up one crash after another so lance armstrong loses time and can"t win the tour :thumbsup:


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## Jason1500 (Apr 1, 2008)

Circlip said:


> Lance wasn't placed well enough in the GC to even merit the consideration.


Where are you getting that from? How do you get "placed" in the GC to begin with before the race starts? Lance would of been right up there with Cadel, Andy, and Alberto coming into yesterday's stage if he didn't crash on the cobbles. He just had a very bad day is all. Entering the TdF he was certainly physically fit enough to at least have a chance at winning.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

That crash was pretty spectacular. They were flying.

I know everyone loves Horner but his GC chances were slightly better than Ensign Johnson when he beams down to an unknown planet with Kirk and Scotty. He draws a paycheck to nursemaid the GC guy.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Wait for the guy in 14th place? No.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

No one should "wait" for their opponent in a race no matter what the circumstances -- at best, opponents shouldn't attack their adversaries when these have mechanicals or crashes. And this is doubly so for the case in question since Armstrong caused his own crash!


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword".

"The bigger they are, the harder they fall"

"Making a comeback is one of the most difficult things to do with dignity". 
Greg Lake

I hope he enjoys his retirement, manages to stay out of jail and becomes a mellow old fart.


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

No one should have waited for the Shlock wimps the other day either.


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## Chris Oz (Oct 8, 2005)

The peleton only waited for the Schlecks because no one could be bothered at the time to work on the front and Spartacus wasn't going to attack his own team mates.

Today there was no reason to wait for Lance. The crash was his own fault, he was already down the order and not really looking to be in contention and finally I gather he isn't the most popular person in the peleton - but neither is Cadel or Vino or a lot of other GC riders.

To put it in perspective they didn't appear to want to really wait for the riders that crash at the start of today stage and more people where involved. This one had Cadel in it who is 3rd placed and a definite GC hopeful, and it wasn't his fault. Cadel was just luck that they weren't pushing it at the time.

Face it Lance was just unlucky that the peleton had the pedal down when it happened. He has had a pretty good run so he can't complain. In fact, despite is ego, from the reports he seems pretty philosophical about the whole situation.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

I agree with Frith in that 'waiting' for a competitor is overused. If the competition is affected by outside forces, namely crashes involving spectators or dogs, then waiting is appropriate. I don't like waiting on a competitor because they crashed by clipping their pedal in a corner. Bad form and tough luck for you. 

Rain is another good example; if you crash on a wet road and the road is just as wet for everyone else, then tough.


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

natedg200202 said:


> I agree with Frith in that 'waiting' for a competitor is overused. If the competition is affected by outside forces, namely crashes involving spectators or dogs, then waiting is appropriate. I don't like waiting on a competitor because they crashed by clipping their pedal in a corner. Bad form and tough luck for you.
> 
> Rain is another good example; if you crash on a wet road and the road is just as wet for everyone else, then tough.


Like on stage 3?


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

*Horner*

If anyone was going to bring Lance back, it was Horner:

<img src="https://gritandglimmer.com/wp-content/uploads/image/_MG_7724.jpg">
https://gritandglimmer.com/chris-horner-gives-fallen-rider-and-bike-a-2k-ride-to-the-finish/


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## Lumbergh (Aug 19, 2005)

must say I am a bit bummed now - Conti wiping up LA & the rest of Radio Shack in the mountains just won't have the same impact as it otherwise would have.

Gotta hand it to him, as well as the other "old men" competing - plenty of 37+ yo riders this year.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Red Sox Junkie said:


> Should the GC riders have waited for Lance when he fell. Discuss.


If you don't hear Lance complaining about it, then it's not an issue. And I don't hear Lance complaining about it.


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## cruso414 (Feb 20, 2004)

Lumbergh said:


> must say I am a bit bummed now - Conti wiping up LA & the rest of Radio Shack in the mountains just won't have the same impact as it otherwise would have.
> 
> Gotta hand it to him, as well as the other "old men" competing - plenty of 37+ yo riders this year.


the real sweetness was watching c*u*n*tador getting dropped yesterday by Andy Schleck.:thumbsup:


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## matty125 (May 31, 2010)

Lance had a rough day, stage 8. It impresses me so much the way his men do stand by him. I think I recall him telling them to go on w/o him. As a Captain goes down w/ his ship he told the team to ride out. Im a MT biker whos newer to road biking but the very fact that these world class riders "sacrafice" themselves for 1 greater team member is truely being a hero.
Im a Soldier and I see greater respect among these riders for their positions on the team than everyday life for me. Its selfish to have a bad day and when you continually see you team waiting on you there comes a time to send them on their way, its the respect given back to them.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

cyclejim said:


> You obviously haven't seen the crash.


I agree... You may want to watch this to gain a bit of perspective on how insignificant you feel that crash was.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHBftK8okyA

Now that Lance's chances are slim, I will just cheer for anyone to beat Conti now...


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> I agree... You may want to watch this to gain a bit of perspective on how insignificant you feel that crash was.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHBftK8okyA
> ...


Too bad that vid is from a low frame rate cell phone camera. In any case, he did hit the road pretty hard - its surprising that LA wasn't more seriously hurt.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Perspective ; it's a team sport (despite how it may seem with individual results), they were hired for this exact purpose, and they are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to carry this out. There's very little noble or heroic about it.



matty125 said:


> Lance had a rough day, stage 8. It impresses me so much the way his men do stand by him. I think I recall him telling them to go on w/o him. As a Captain goes down w/ his ship he told the team to ride out. Im a MT biker whos newer to road biking but the very fact that these world class riders "sacrafice" themselves for 1 greater team member is truely being a hero.
> Im a Soldier and I see greater respect among these riders for their positions on the team than everyday life for me. Its selfish to have a bad day and when you continually see you team waiting on you there comes a time to send them on their way, its the respect given back to them.


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## matty125 (May 31, 2010)

Circlip said:


> Perspective ; it's a team sport (despite how it may seem with individual results), they were hired for this exact purpose, and they are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to carry this out. There's very little noble or heroic about it.


 Um, they dont make that much. a Profi Bike racer starts at 47 G in Euros a year. You may want to check those facts!


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> the very fact that these world class riders "sacrafice" themselves for 1 greater team member is truely being a hero.


The problem is that by nursing Armstrong home, Radio Shack lost another two cards they had to play to help Levi. As long as Horner and Brajkovic were competitive in the GC, on later stages if they attack, the leaders have to follow, burning matches. That in theory could help Levi. Now they're so far behind if they attack, Saxo and Astana won't bother.


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## matty125 (May 31, 2010)

AdamM said:


> The problem is that by nursing Armstrong home, Radio Shack lost another two cards they had to play to help Levi. As long as Horner and Brajkovic were competitive in the GC, on later stages if they attack, the leaders have to follow, burning matches. That in theory could help Levi. Now they're so far behind if they attack, Saxo and Astana won't bother.


 I agree, Lance quit on his team. He screwed them all. Im disappointed to say the least in him.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

matty125 said:


> I agree, Lance quit on his team. He screwed them all. Im disappointed to say the least in him.



Ouch! This should get some nice responses... You ever crash hard enough to feel like vomiting??


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## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

saird said:


> No one should have waited for the Shlock wimps the other day either.


I'd love to see you take on those " wimps" and show us how manly you are.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

matty125 said:


> Um, they dont make that much. a Profi Bike racer starts at 47 G in Euros a year. You may want to check those facts!



 
From UCI

Rider salaries
*•The average salary of a ProTeam rider is €190,000 (NZ$423,000) OR $298K US*
•Less than 15% of the Pro Team riders earn less than €40,000 (NZ$89,000)
•Average salary of a Pro Continental rider is €60,000 (NZ$134,000)

"This means that the majority of riders on UCI ProTeams have a good, or indeed very good, salary. The percentage of athletes in a precarious financial situation in this category has become negligible. As for UCI Professional Continental Teams, an increasingly large proportion of riders can live well - and even very well - from their profession," said the UCI statement.


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## matty125 (May 31, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> Ouch! This should get some nice responses... You ever crash hard enough to feel like vomiting??


 No but I have been shot while engaging the enemy. That hurt pretty bad, yes Ive had broken bones and rash however. Im riding on 2 rebuilt knees from cadavers and a fused neck. Lance is TOUGH, he just let them down...I guess its harsh, he's just held to super human expectations.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

matty125 said:


> Um, they dont make that much. a Profi Bike racer starts at 47 G in Euros a year. You may want to check those facts!


See above. Consider those facts checked (thanks Rydbyk).

Also probably worth noting that the riders in question, from Radio Shack, are probably eanring a healthy bit more on average than these overall Pro Tour averages, being an "All Star" lineup. As I mentioned before, nothing noble or heroic going on here.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

matty125 said:


> Lance is TOUGH, he just let them down...I guess its harsh, he's just held to super human expectations.


Why do you assume that finishing the stage at all was not a testament to his toughness? Do you have some ESP when it comes to other people crashing?


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

How many times to Phil and Paul give a shout out to some marginal rider going of the front with no hope of achieving anything other than getting their sponsor's logo in front of the camera?

A win for Levi would be great, but that's not terribly likely. Leaving Lance on the side of the road would have been a PR disaster. To most of Radio Shack's audience, Lance _is_ cycling.

These guys are pros -- they know which side their bread is buttered on.


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## matty125 (May 31, 2010)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Why do you assume that finishing the stage at all was not a testament to his toughness? Do you have some ESP when it comes to other people crashing?


 Come on guys, Im not saying he's NOT TOUGH!!!!!!!! We are getting away from the original post and I feel that his men who are world class should of been released sooner to scavenge what they could. Lance is a TREMENDOUS ROLE MODEL and one of the TOUGHEST MEN on EARTH, He finish with his jersey in tatters, BUT HE FINISH still ahead of people.
Unfortunately when you have super human strength and resilencey it's expected to always be there on tap. We are just reminded that he's only human.
So please dont think IM trash talking, unexperienced to pain or anything. I just personally feel let down by Lance and his always fight motto.
Thats all guys, I just wanted so bad to see him excel as he always has. It sucks having to retire a role model and look for a new one. Ive met him in person and Im very sad he wont ride another tour.


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## matty125 (May 31, 2010)

Circlip said:


> See above. Consider those facts checked (thanks Rydbyk).
> 
> Also probably worth noting that the riders in question, from Radio Shack, are probably eanring a healthy bit more on average than these overall Pro Tour averages, being an "All Star" lineup. As I mentioned before, nothing noble or heroic going on here.


 LOL, your spandex a bit too tight Bro. Its just money and I wasnt talking top line wage earners:thumbsup:


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

I blame it on Sky.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

You are let down based on the _assumption_ that he could have done more. Why do you have to retire a role model because he merely got back on his bike after a brutal crash and _rode it up a mountain_?

Did you see the video of the crash?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

rydbyk said:


> From UCI
> 
> Rider salaries
> *•The average salary of a ProTeam rider is €190,000 (NZ$423,000) OR $298K US*
> ...


Not quite.

If a team of 30 riders has a team leader on €1M, a few super domestiques on €500K to €125K with the rest on €47K yields an average of €198K but the mode (the majority) is €47K. So while the average is high, the majority are not on anywhere near the average at all.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

ultimobici said:


> Not quite.
> 
> If a team of 30 riders has a team leader on €1M, a few super domestiques on €500K to €125K with the rest on €47K yields an average of €198K but the mode (the majority) is €47K. So while the average is high, the majority are not on anywhere near the average at all.



So so many ways to cut the cheddar here. Your example is one of many ways. 

This is not my data. It is cut and pasted from UCI.


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## matty125 (May 31, 2010)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> You are let down based on the _assumption_ that he could have done more. Why do you have to retire a role model because he merely got back on his bike after a brutal crash and _rode it up a mountain_?
> 
> Did you see the video of the crash?


 Hey you want to get personal. **** you Im a SOLDIER a US ARMY Soldier with Bullet wounds in my body. Dont talk to me about being tough. I didnt give up, if I did Id be dead. Roadies like you we eat, and you taste like ****.**** off you give the sport a bad name. Oh I guess Im banned now. **** off joker, the day you balls up and go to war you may see things from my point of view until then, Ill fight the war you to scared to little ****en biotch! **** His crash wasnt that bad. UM In in Europe, I see this **** live NOT TAPE CAST!!!!!!!!!!:nono: :mad5:


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

Levi is no LA, he's a good rider domestique in GT's yes, but no GC contender...or any moreso than LA was till he crashed.

LOL IBTL ^


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

I can see the Bunny ears coming..look busy.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

wow. this turned a corner.


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

matty125 said:


> Hey you want to get personal. **** you Im a SOLDIER a US ARMY Soldier with Bullet wounds in my body. Dont talk to me about being tough. I didnt give up, if I did Id be dead. Roadies like you we eat, and you taste like ****.**** off you give the sport a bad name. Oh I guess Im banned now. **** off joker, the day you balls up and go to war you may see things from my point of view until then, Ill fight the war you to scared to little ****en biotch! **** His crash wasnt that bad. UM In in Europe, I see this **** live NOT TAPE CAST!!!!!!!!!!:nono: :mad5:


grabs popcorn.


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## matty125 (May 31, 2010)

LOL, yes w/ full Dura ace and large gear


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

matty125 said:


> Hey you want to get personal. **** you Im a SOLDIER a US ARMY Soldier with Bullet wounds in my body. Dont talk to me about being tough. I didnt give up, if I did Id be dead. Roadies like you we eat, and you taste like ****.**** off you give the sport a bad name. Oh I guess Im banned now. **** off joker, the day you balls up and go to war you may see things from my point of view until then, Ill fight the war you to scared to little ****en biotch! **** His crash wasnt that bad. UM In in Europe, I see this **** live NOT TAPE CAST!!!!!!!!!!:nono: :mad5:


Wind your neck in, sunshine.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

matty125 said:


> Hey you want to get personal. **** you Im a SOLDIER a US ARMY Soldier with Bullet wounds in my body. Dont talk to me about being tough. I didnt give up, if I did Id be dead. Roadies like you we eat, and you taste like ****.**** off you give the sport a bad name. Oh I guess Im banned now. **** off joker, the day you balls up and go to war you may see things from my point of view until then, Ill fight the war you to scared to little ****en biotch! **** His crash wasnt that bad. UM In in Europe, I see this **** live NOT TAPE CAST!!!!!!!!!!:nono: :mad5:


oh noes its an ARMY guy! run for the hills.:mad2: 

so where were you? and whats your MOS mr. tough guy? you sound like a giant douche I don't see anything PeanutButterBreath said that was "personal"

Chad


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

In b/4 the lock :wink:


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

matty125 said:


> Hey you want to get personal. **** you Im a SOLDIER a US ARMY Soldier with Bullet wounds in my body. Dont talk to me about being tough. I didnt give up, if I did Id be dead. Roadies like you we eat, and you taste like ****.**** off you give the sport a bad name. Oh I guess Im banned now. **** off joker, the day you balls up and go to war you may see things from my point of view until then, Ill fight the war you to scared to little ****en biotch! **** His crash wasnt that bad. UM In in Europe, I see this **** live NOT TAPE CAST!!!!!!!!!!:nono: :mad5:



ten-hut! show some respect for another veteran of Call of Duty 4.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

AJL said:


> In b/4 the lock :wink:



Hard to tell,,, all the in-fighting is going on mid thread....


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

matty125 said:


> Hey you want to get personal. **** you Im a SOLDIER a US ARMY Soldier with Bullet wounds in my body. Dont talk to me about being tough. I didnt give up, if I did Id be dead. Roadies like you we eat, and you taste like ****.**** off you give the sport a bad name. Oh I guess Im banned now. **** off joker, the day you balls up and go to war you may see things from my point of view until then, Ill fight the war you to scared to little ****en biotch! **** His crash wasnt that bad. UM In in Europe, I see this **** live NOT TAPE CAST!!!!!!!!!!:nono: :mad5:


Is this a response to my post? I'm genuinely confused.


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

matty125 said:


> Hey you want to get personal. **** you Im a SOLDIER a US ARMY Soldier with Bullet wounds in my body. Dont talk to me about being tough. I didnt give up, if I did Id be dead. Roadies like you we eat, and you taste like ****.**** off you give the sport a bad name. Oh I guess Im banned now. **** off joker, the day you balls up and go to war you may see things from my point of view until then, Ill fight the war you to scared to little ****en biotch! **** His crash wasnt that bad. UM In in Europe, I see this **** live NOT TAPE CAST!!!!!!!!!!:nono: :mad5:


You don't leave a wounded soldier behind! Those guys have too much respect for Lance to let him limp in alone.


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## gormleyflyer2002 (Sep 12, 2005)

makes me laugh...... AS keeps feeding it to them after Fabian brow beats the bunch into waiting for him when he fell on Monday, clowns......then Saxo take advantage on Tuesday when Frank goes down. It's a tough and nasty game, Cadel got screwed on Monday just like his wheel change in Spain last fall.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Nimitz said:


> oh noes its an ARMY guy! run for the hills.:mad2:
> 
> so where were you? and whats your MOS mr. tough guy? you sound like a giant douche I don't see anything PeanutButterBreath said that was "personal"
> 
> Chad


not 35 obviously


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow, I am not sure I have ever seen a thread with so much fail in it.

Ask Ullrich about LA never waiting when contenders crashed.

The money thing has already been taken care of.

I didn't realize being 50 seconds back from the favorite makes one "not a contender."

Then comes the epic fail of the thread...Lance quit on the team. Can anyone say "clueless?"


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Perico said:


> Wow, I am not sure I have ever seen a thread with so much fail in it.
> 
> Ask Ullrich about LA never waiting when contenders crashed.
> 
> ...



Clueless


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