# My homemade carb gel



## laxguy86 (Jul 13, 2004)

Anybody have any suggestions to my recipe? It consists of peanut butter, honey, cocoa powder for flavor, and water.
Here's the nutritional info i calculated from the ingredients.

-dM

<edit>i noticed gu has 100% DV of vitamins C and E. What do they do?


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Your gel contains mostly simple sugars that is suboptimal.


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## BenWA (Aug 11, 2004)

*looks interesting...*

try using raw Manuka honey from New Zealand...you can get it in most high quality health food stores. its advantages over other honey varieties for your purpose are profound. Maybe add some ester C powder or Emergen-C to your mix?

btw, not all simple sugars are created equal... your body knows the difference between processed sugars and honey.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Yes, honey in high quantities is much less tolerable as processed sugars (not due to another sugars but due to other ingridients). From the point of sugars honey is very similar to so called "inverted" sugar. And it has all limitations of other simple sugars. It doesn't means that you have not to use it in carb gelm it just mean that it shall not be main ingridient..


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## Armchair Spaceman (Jun 21, 2003)

laxguy86 said:


> Anybody have any suggestions to my recipe? It consists of peanut butter, honey, cocoa powder for flavor, and water.
> Here's the nutritional info i calculated from the ingredients.
> 
> -dM
> ...


Here's my home brew:
15 Teaspoons Gatorade (powder)
15 Tablespoons Rice Syrup (the stuff GU is based on)
1/2 teaspoon salt
Mix with warm water to 500ml, allow to cool before storing.

Yields about 15 shots, each delivers carbs, sodium and potassium and roughly equivalent to a Leppin Squeezy or a Hammer Gel but at a tenth the cost. This one suits MY body chemistry better than just about anything and it keeps for weeks. Can be slugged as a gel shot or mixed with water and sipped (I often squeeze a shot or two into a bidon and fill with water, taking a healthy swig every 15 minutes or so). For long rides (5-6hrs or more) I use a camelback filled with water and a bidon full of this stuff, taking a shot washed down with water roughly every 45 minutes, sipping water in between.


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## outofthesaddle (Aug 15, 2002)

*where to get rice syrup? (nm)*

12345


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## Armchair Spaceman (Jun 21, 2003)

outofthesaddle said:


> 12345



Here in OZ it's a supermarket item, and can also be found in most health food shops.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Go to a brewer/winemaker and buy a pound of maltodextrose powder. Use a 35g scoop(from Gatorade or Eload) to measure 70g (just under 300 Cal) and dilute it with 125ml of your favourite drink. YOu may need to heat it up on the stove to dissolve it. Put it in a GU flask, there ya go.


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## outofthesaddle (Aug 15, 2002)

*Thanks! - (nm)*

12345


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## FujiCyclist86 (Feb 8, 2007)

*what is 12345?*

what is 12345? 

Anyways, i'm looking to make my home brew of gels. I did an experiment and used cold water with high fructose corn syrup (which i heard was bad, since i did some research comparing different kinds of syrup). The experiment was OK but it worked. 

I'm ganna try either corn syrup or brown rice syrup and put them in a GU flask. Whats the cheapest energy drink to get? i'm a college student and i'm as poor as you can get. Gaterade? Anything cheaper? Alright thanks


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

12345 is to fill up space, since it won't let you post nothing. NM in the subject line is "nothing more," the subject explains it all.

OP, the problem with honey is that it's all fructose, which is slower to metabolise, and also it's tough for many / most people to process in high quantities.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

al0 said:


> Your gel contains mostly simple sugars that is suboptimal.


I'm not so sure about that?

I'm not 100% sure but I believe that during exercise you are not relying on an insulin-mediated transport of glucose into the muscle. Thus no sugar highs and lows as you would have in a the resting state. The glucose transporters are alreadly at the cell surfaces as a consequence of the muscle constractions.

I think one of the concerns you might have with making a home made brew is to avoid too much fructose because it requires a specific transporter to get across the GI wall and therefore might limit the rate at which carbs get into the blood.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

FujiCyclist86 said:


> Anything cheaper? Alright thanks


Why not just get some powdered cool-aid? Gatorade is formulated for hydration and electrolyte replacement, so it is relatively water-downed. Something like cool-aid would provide the sugar but not the electrolytes. Get it in the powdered form and you could mix it to the desired calorie density to obtimize energy vs. hydration.


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## BendBiker (Jul 22, 2006)

*cheap student recipe*

I like gels because I'm still somewhat new to racing and they are easy to eat in a pack.

I use that really sugary fruit pie filling. It doesn't really have all that much fruit despite what they may claim, so you don't have to worry about special fructose transporters. 
1 bag (enough for one pie)=20-30 gels for a cost of ~$4.
I use that glad press n' seal wrap to make packets and add a bit salt to each.


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## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

al0 said:


> Your gel contains mostly simple sugars that is suboptimal.


I'd think the bigger difference is nearly half the calories from fat. Not that fat is bad... but it's certainly bad as far as glycogen replenishment during exercise. Gu and the like are all sugars for a reason...


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## singleisfree (Oct 2, 2006)

ugars unfortunately do not lend themselves to stable blood sugar levels. This is because they break down quickly and the absorption rates vary. Absorption is based on the GI scale which is the glycemic index. The amount of fluid and electrolytes is also different for digestion for sugars compared to complex carbohydrates. The ideal carbohydrate source is complex with a high GI. This will break down slowly with quick absorption allowing stable blood sugar levels. The two best gels already made, Hammer Gel and Carboom.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Confusion*



singleisfree said:


> The ideal carbohydrate source is complex with a high GI. This will break down slowly with quick absorption allowing stable blood sugar levels.


A high GI means, by definition, that the food will enter the bloodstream quickly. The "glucose polymers break down slowly" myth started a long time ago, probably by those ignorant lackeys at Bicycling Magazine  You cannot propose a mechanism that allows for a slow breakdown and a high glycemic index.


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## normZurawski (Jul 25, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> A high GI means, by definition, that the food will enter the bloodstream quickly. The "glucose polymers break down slowly" myth started a long time ago, probably by those ignorant lackeys at Bicycling Magazine  You cannot propose a mechanism that allows for a slow breakdown and a high glycemic index.


This is correct. SingleIsFree and I had this debate a while ago on MTBR. The Hammer literature doesn't even suggest as much. Their argument is that maltodextrin can be absorbed in greater quantities than other sugars. The greater amount of carbs in your system is what keeps you from crashing.

Bicycling Magazine recently printed a study which suggested a mix of sucrose and maltodextrin and something else (glucose?) in some certain ratio emptied from your stomach faster. The most recent Hammer newsletter replied that yes, the study was valid. But it wasn't used on trained cyclists, it wasn't used over a long enough duration, and it wasn't used by people exercising at a high effort.

Having said that, I mix my own maltodextrin drink and I find maltodextrin works very well for me. You can pack a ton of calories in an essentially mild tasting brew. You can get 1000 calories into a standard water bottle (with some hot water and patience) and it doesn't feel like you're drinking such a high energy drink.

As to the homemade brew, it really depends on your length of ride. Personally if it's 3 hours or less I can drink anything. Honey water, Accelerade, Gatorade, it really doesn't matter. It's the extended rides that all hell breaks loose. That's where the benefits of maltodextrin come into play, for me. As usual, YMMV. Or in this case, YMWV.


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## lawrence (May 17, 2005)

Add oatmeal and nuts, try adding non-flavored powdered whey protein.


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## Tangelo (Feb 17, 2007)

Raisins will make it taste yummy!


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## Kickit (Aug 9, 2006)

Here are a couple posts I did on MTBR:



> A have couple issues with honey. First, it's mostly fructose which needs to go to the liver before being digested. Not the thing when you're bonking and need those carbs quickly. It does work longer term though but corn syrup is much cheaper source of fructose. Second, it can be way too sweet. Third, the water that gets pulled in during absorption can cause cramps.
> 
> I've found that lower dextrose equivalent (DE) carbs are better for me. The carb that's used in many popular energy gels is maltodextrin (long chain glucose polymers made from corn starch). It's almost all complex carbohydrate with a DE of at most 20 and so it's quite bland in taste. It has a really high glycemic index (around 150) and quickly breaks down for quick use. It's super cheap around $2.50 per pound and a cup has 150g of carbs. You can add some fructose for longer lasting carb too if you want, also $2.50 per pound. I'm sure you can find it cheaper but I get it here...
> 
> ...





> I've done some research on carbs for this purpose but don't take this as definitive. Do some research and experiment for yourself to see what works for you.
> 
> Industrial use carbohydrate products are measured in Dextrose Equivalents (DE). Dextrose is 100% simple sugar therefore is DE 100. Maltodextrin comes in several varieties of Dextrose Equivalents (with a maximum of DE 20) that basically tell how much simple sugar. This means that Maltodextrin by definition has a maximum of 20% simple sugar. This is why it's not that very sweet at all. If the carbohydrate product has a DE higher than 20 but lower than 80, it is considered "syrup".
> 
> ...


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## singleisfree (Oct 2, 2006)

normZurawski said:


> Bicycling Magazine recently printed a study which suggested a mix of sucrose and maltodextrin and something else (glucose?) in some certain ratio emptied from your stomach faster. The most recent Hammer newsletter replied that yes, the study was valid. But it wasn't used on trained cyclists, it wasn't used over a long enough duration, and it wasn't used by people exercising at a high effort.


This particular study was at 50-55% of max effort. To get an idea of what this looks like, walk to your car and there you have it. I can eat whatever I would like without a negative effect on my digestive system while "exercising" at this rate. 
The information about Hammer I believe may also be incorrect. They do not say you can digest greater amounts with maltodextrin than with sugar, they are saying for the same amount of fluid which is entirely correct. Can you digest 250 cal/hr from sugar? Absolutely! Just higher amounts of fluid are required to mantain osmatic pressure of equal nature.​As for the GI reference about complex not breaking down slower than sugar, that is most inaccurate, simply refer to any Exercise physiology text book (like the ones I have sitting here as that is my degree field.)


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## normZurawski (Jul 25, 2006)

singleisfree said:


> As for the GI reference about complex not breaking down slower than sugar, that is most inaccurate, simply refer to any Exercise physiology text book (like the ones I have sitting here as that is my degree field.)


From Hammer's website:

"Complex carbohydrate fuels are easily and more-rapidly absorbed in a 15-18% solution. More calories are absorbed faster, and are available for energy production, from complex carbohydrates than simple sugar."

Spin away!


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

normZurawski said:


> From Hammer's website:
> 
> "Complex carbohydrate fuels are easily and more-rapidly absorbed in a 15-18% solution. More calories are absorbed faster, and are available for energy production, from complex carbohydrates than simple sugar."
> 
> Spin away!


It's been a long time since I looked at any sort of digestive physiology but don't all carbs have to broken down into simple sugars so they can cross the gut to get to the blood?

I thought what makes complex carbs "better" is that this break down process results in a slow, gradual release of sugars into the blood, whereas consuming simple sugars means there is no need to break them down to cross into the blood, so you get a more rapid and greater rise in blood glucose, more insulin, etc., etc.

But again, I'm pretty sure, during excersice that a "sugar crash" is not much of a consideration b/c insulin isn't the primary mechansim of glucose clearance from the blood.

So unless complex carbs somehow get processed faster than simple sugars to get them into the blood, I don't see how they provide more calories on per unit of time if the complex and simple carbs are matched for calories?

I think Asker Jeukendrup has published in this area, consults with pro cycling teams (Rabobank), and might even have a book.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Your degree field?*



singleisfree said:


> As for the GI reference about complex not breaking down slower than sugar, that is most inaccurate, simply refer to any Exercise physiology text book (like the ones I have sitting here as that is my degree field.)


Some people are referring to things like whole grains, raw fruits, and raw vegetables when they talk about complex carbs. Many of these have a low glycemic index, showing that they are slow to digest and reach the bloodstream. Others are simply referring to things "more complex" than sugars. That said, the thing that measures the rate of food breakdown (for purposes of fueling during exercise) is the glycemic index. Glucose, by definition, has a glycemic index of 100. Maltodextrin, the most common "complex carbohydrate" used in energy drinks and many energy bars, has a glycemic index essentially the same as glucose. IOW, it delivers energy to the system at the same rate as glucose. How is possible for maltodextrin to have the same GI as glucose, and support your claim that it breaks down more slowly?


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## GarbanzoBeanSnafu (Jun 27, 2005)

BendBiker said:


> I like gels because I'm still somewhat new to racing and they are easy to eat in a pack.
> 
> I use that really sugary fruit pie filling. It doesn't really have all that much fruit despite what they may claim, so you don't have to worry about special fructose transporters.
> 1 bag (enough for one pie)=20-30 gels for a cost of ~$4.
> I use that glad press n' seal wrap to make packets and add a bit salt to each.



Are these easy to eat /store while riding or racing? Do you have any pics? Sounds like an interesting idea.


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## singleisfree (Oct 2, 2006)

normZurawski said:


> From Hammer's website:
> 
> "Complex carbohydrate fuels are easily and more-rapidly absorbed in a 15-18% solution. More calories are absorbed faster, and are available for energy production, from complex carbohydrates than simple sugar."
> 
> Spin away!


Yes, you left out quite an important part and that would be that the 15-18% of a 24 oz fluid volume. The reason for being absorbed faster is because many processed, refined sugars, have a low GI although they can be ready for absorption as they break down quickly, actual absorption occurs slowly. Fructose is a perfect commonly used example. Fructose is extremly low on the GI scale so it is absorbed slowly, raises the blood glucose quickly then drops of sharply.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

*I'm befuddled!*



singleisfree said:


> Fructose is extremly low on the GI scale so it is absorbed slowly, raises the blood glucose quickly then drops of sharply.


If it is absorbed slowly, how does it raise blood glucose quickly and why would it drop off sharply?


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## normZurawski (Jul 25, 2006)

More from Hammer:

"RECOVERITE supplies carbohydrates and protein in an ideal 3:1 ratio for superior glycogen synthesis and muscle tissue rebuilding, the two main components of recovery. For carbohydrate, RECOVERITE contains only maltodextrin, a complex carbohydrate with a high glycemic index, to ensure rapid metabolism. Unlike most recovery products that contain simple sugars, *maltodextrin provides a large volume of easily digested and rapidly assimilated carbohydrate*, vital for preventing stomach distress and promoting full, efficient restoration of muscle glycogen."

Dwayne Barry,

There's not a ton of literature out there about maltodextrin, other than Hammer's website. From what I've been able to gather, maltodextrin is a complex carb like glass is a liquid. Technically true but not so in practice. Basically if maltodextrin was slow releasing they would never recommend it for recovery. 

Also, the idea that you can compare apples to apples and have a high GI-time curve doesn't make sense, since the area under the curve represents total calories. The only way to accomplish this is to deliver more calories, which is what Hammer claims maltodextrin can do. So in that context I can see the benefit of maltodextrin. Overall, I'm always trying to find more information on it. 

FWIW my guess is that singleisfree works for Hammer based on his MTBR posts.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

normZurawski said:


> Unlike most recovery products that contain simple sugars, *maltodextrin provides a large volume of easily digested and rapidly assimilated carbohydrate*, vital for preventing stomach distress and promoting full, efficient restoration of muscle glycogen."
> 
> Well my skim milk with some protein powder and a quarter cup of sugar doesn't cause me any stomach distress so I'm not convinced maltodextrin is "vital for full, efficient restoration of muscle glycogen".
> 
> I'm not sure, either, that there are all that many situations where you need to optimize muscle glycogen resynthesis to make sure you're topped off by the next time you work out.


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## normZurawski (Jul 25, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Well my skim milk with some protein powder and a quarter cup of sugar doesn't cause me any stomach distress so I'm not convinced maltodextrin is "vital for full, efficient restoration of muscle glycogen".
> 
> I'm not sure, either, that there are all that many situations where you need to optimize muscle glycogen resynthesis to make sure you're topped off by the next time you work out.


Hammer's marketing campaign doesn't have you begging for more? I'm astonished.

All of this is certainly in the YMMV category. As I mentioned above, for 3 hours or less anything works for me, personally. But I did a 24 hour mtb race last year and by hour 6 Accelerade tatsed like quadruple sweet sugar blast. It was truly awful. I started looking into it more then. I have found maltodextrin online for around $1.40 a pound including shipping. So for longer rides I make a super-calorie bottle of maltodextrin mixed with a little Accelerade for taste, plus salt. As for recovery I do some form of drink after intervals or longer weekend rides.


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## GarbanzoBeanSnafu (Jun 27, 2005)

Is _this_ true?:

From what I read, it seems that a variety of sources is best. Meaning, differing %ages of high and medium high GI products work best. Im no dietitcian or nutritionist, but I understand that there are different pathways to digest or assimilate different nutrients/fuels. So, all of the pathways should be utilized in order to process the most fuels. It's kinda like the square peg, round hole idea. Imagine a bunch of cubes, pyramids and a bunch of spheres rolling around in a box with a square hole, triangular and a round hole on the bottom. Why would you only add balls(high gi foods)? Sure they roll faster, but they won't fit through the other holes (pathways).

Hopefully I'm not full of bull plop here...


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Maltodextrin advantages*



Dwayne Barry said:


> Well my skim milk with some protein powder and a quarter cup of sugar doesn't cause me any stomach distress so I'm not convinced maltodextrin is "vital for full, efficient restoration of muscle glycogen".


And of course it is not. The advantages to maltodextrin (compared to simple sugars) in this application are 1) it is not nearly as sweet on the tongue and so is better to formulate into a good tasting products and 2) it doesn't result in rapid plaque formation on the teeth. Anyone who has experienced those "little green sweaters" coating their teeth toward the end of a long ride fueled by sugar drinks knows what I'm talking about. There may be other formulation advantages to maltodextrin that I am not aware of, but as a physiologic aid, it really doesn't have any advantages over glucose, sucrose, etc. It may be easier on some people's stomachs, but as Dwyane points out, that is individual and not a blanket thing.


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## normZurawski (Jul 25, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> And of course it is not. The advantages to maltodextrin (compared to simple sugars) in this application are 1) it is not nearly as sweet on the tongue and so is better to formulate into a good tasting products and 2) it doesn't result in rapid plaque formation on the teeth. Anyone who has experienced those "little green sweaters" coating their teeth toward the end of a long ride fueled by sugar drinks knows what I'm talking about. There may be other formulation advantages to maltodextrin that I am not aware of, but as a physiologic aid, it really doesn't have any advantages over glucose, sucrose, etc. It may be easier on some people's stomachs, but as Dwyane points out, that is individual and not a blanket thing.


There is also some fluff that it is easier to absorb greater amounts of calories but I don't know if it is indeed fluff or fact. They like to throw around the word "osmosality" (sp assuredly off) but again, don't know if it's fluff or fact.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Kerry Irons said:


> Anyone who has experienced those "little green sweaters" coating their teeth toward the end of a long ride fueled by sugar drinks knows what I'm talking about.


I've found that on long rides I tend to do better with some sort of mixed foods anyway rather than some sort of "optimized" carbohydrate mix. Not sure why. I take some sort of little roll, a couple of slices of ham (maybe it's all the salt?), and some jelly to make a sandwich or two, drink gatorade (I add some salt and potassium since I'm in the south now and it's hot), then some cheap "breakfast bars" that have a bit of fat in them as well. Maybe it's a pure calories thing but if I'm going to ride for 5 or 6 hours, all carbs doesn't seem to cut it.


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## normZurawski (Jul 25, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Maybe it's a pure calories thing but if I'm going to ride for 5 or 6 hours, all carbs doesn't seem to cut it.


I tend to agree with that. I did a ride of 4 hours then of 2 hours after that. I ate pizza and drank coffee between and the 2 hour ride ended better than the 4 hour ride.


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## singleisfree (Oct 2, 2006)

I have spent part of the day searching Pubmed for articles about this, but unfortunately I am having a hard time reading through the literature because of a car wreck I was in several weeks ago (can't focus very long.)
Anyway, here is an easy read source from Hammer Nutrition (and BTW if I did work for them, would I be recommending competing products in terms of protens, vitamins, etc..?) http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=297 This discusses osmality which was mentioned by someone in an earlier post. Here is another interesting article I found on Pubmed today just as food for thought/discussion. 
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi\?tool=pmcentrez&artid=1413655
Also I would like to say, I am enjoying the engaging conversations :thumbsup:​


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