# Reason for "high-flange" track hubs?



## Anti-gravity (Jul 16, 2004)

I see this term used frequently to decribe some track hubs. Is there a purpose for higher flanges specifically on track hubs? I'm guessing that these hubs are sturdier for radial lacing, if that happens to be the prefered lacing pattern for track racers. However my Pista has high-flange hubs laced 3x....hmmmm....anyone? Thanks.

-R


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## Jamieshankland (Jan 8, 2005)

Hi flange hubs let you run a shorter spoke witch in turn gives you a stiffer wheel.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Anti-gravity said:


> I see this term used frequently to decribe some track hubs. Is there a purpose for higher flanges specifically on track hubs? I'm guessing that these hubs are sturdier for radial lacing, if that happens to be the prefered lacing pattern for track racers. However my Pista has high-flange hubs laced 3x....hmmmm....anyone? Thanks.
> 
> -R


In days gone by, spokes broke with some regulartity. With a high flange hub, the spokes could be changed quickly without removing the sprocket. - TF


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*One more advantage, but given away.*

Another advantage of the high-flange hub was reduced wheel dish, making the wheel a bit stiffer laterally. But that was given away when hub manufactures started milling huge cutouts into the flanges to reduce hub weight.

Campagnolo at one point reduced the flange material to such a degree, that road use of their Record Pista track hubs voided their warranty. When you look at an older Record Pista hub, there is in fact precious little material between the spoke J-bend and the flange outside edge. Sheldon Brown had an indignant rant on that on his website, but I can't find it any longer.


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## Dave_Stohler (Jan 22, 2004)

Anti-gravity said:


> I~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Is there a purpose for higher flanges specifically on track hubs? I'm guessing that these hubs are sturdier for radial lacing, i~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> -R


No, no, no!!! When you have a high flange hub with cutouts under the spoke holes, having the extreme perpendicular pulling stress from a radial-spoked spoke is the last thing you'd want. In fact, when you lace a high-flange cutout hub conventionally, you need to make sure that the spokes are facing in such a way that you won't 'tear-out' the flange at it's weakest point.


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## Anti-gravity (Jul 16, 2004)

Dave_Stohler said:


> No, no, no!!! When you have a high flange hub with cutouts under the spoke holes, having the extreme perpendicular pulling stress from a radial-spoked spoke is the last thing you'd want. In fact, when you lace a high-flange cutout hub conventionally, you need to make sure that the spokes are facing in such a way that you won't 'tear-out' the flange at it's weakest point.


Hmmm, well the flanges on mine are completely solid....


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## SDizzle (May 1, 2004)

For what it's worth, this test found no gains in either radial or lateral stiffness:

http://www.damonrinard.com/wheel/

I think high flanges look better and build up easier. They might be stronger, too (but not stiffer), but I've never seen it tested or proven.


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## Tom Ligon (Jul 1, 2003)

*Interesting ... I've been having spoke breakage trouble ...*

... on my high-flange Suntour fixed gear rear wheel. I totally replaced the spokes, broke a couple of new ones, fixed those, just broke another (at 36 mph, downhill). I had to pull the sprockets (its a flip-flop), but I'm road geared. Probably could have cleared the spokes with a dinky little track cog.

I think mine are actually 4-cross lacing! The shop suggested I should have woven the spokes to prevent breakage. I didn't because I thought stiffer would be better, but maybe I should have. Any opinions? It is a roadbike, not a trackie.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Hmmmm..*

.. can't find anything about high vs low flanges. Test says a larger bracing angle is stiffer. High-flange hubs result in a larger bracing angle. Am I missing something here?


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## SDizzle (May 1, 2004)

Tom Ligon said:


> ... on my high-flange Suntour fixed gear rear wheel. I totally replaced the spokes, broke a couple of new ones, fixed those, just broke another (at 36 mph, downhill). I had to pull the sprockets (its a flip-flop), but I'm road geared. Probably could have cleared the spokes with a dinky little track cog.
> 
> I think mine are actually 4-cross lacing! The shop suggested I should have woven the spokes to prevent breakage. I didn't because I thought stiffer would be better, but maybe I should have. Any opinions? It is a roadbike, not a trackie.


4x isn't necessarily any stronger. I'd stick with 3x, use 14-15 g spokes (NOT straight guage), and have your tension checked by a wheelbuilder of legendary status. It's my understanding that spokes break ONLY because of poor (low) tension (assuming you don't get a frame pump in a wheel).


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## Tom Ligon (Jul 1, 2003)

*Just got them back ...*



SDizzle said:


> 4x isn't necessarily any stronger. I'd stick with 3x, use 14-15 g spokes (NOT straight guage), and have your tension checked by a wheelbuilder of legendary status. It's my understanding that spokes break ONLY because of poor (low) tension (assuming you don't get a frame pump in a wheel).


The wheelbuilder re-did that 4-cross rear, and he did it 4-cross. I have no idea why the wheel was that way originally (the front is 3-cross), but its a retro bike and that's how I left it. But my job I didn't "weave" the spokes at the outer crossing, thinking it made a mushy wheel. He wove the. We'll see if this one holds up better.

When he rebuilt the front, he couldn't bear to leave that old Campy hub all dull and ugly. No extra charge, he polished it! I don't know how GOOD he is, but he definitely takes pride in his work.


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## SDizzle (May 1, 2004)

wim said:


> Am I missing something here?


Nope, but maybe I am. I know I read a study recently that talked about flange diameter vs stiffness, and just assumed it was this one without re-reading the whole thing for the reference. ...the more I think about it, though, the more sense it makes that a bigger flange should build a stiffer wheel. Maybe I made up my recollection entirely?!


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Cutting it to the limit.*

SDizzle, you were right about most high-flange hubs anyway. With huge cut-outs, the high-flange advantage no longer exists. Then there's the question of flange _thickness_. A thin high-flange might actually build a less-stiff wheel than a thick low-flange.

Here'a a quick shot of my old Record Pista hub. Look how close the holes are to the flange rim. It's amazing I haven't pulled a spoke through the flange yet. Someone said "no radial spoking!" and you can see why.

The Damon Rinard link is good reading! Thanks for posting it.


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## Schecky (Aug 11, 2004)

wim said:


> SDizzle, you were right about most high-flange hubs anyway. With huge cut-outs, the high-flange advantage no longer exists. Then there's the question of flange _thickness_. A thin high-flange might actually build a less-stiff wheel than a thick low-flange.
> 
> Here'a a quick shot of my old Record Pista hub. Look how close the holes are to the flange rim. It's amazing I haven't pulled a spoke through the flange yet. Someone said "no radial spoking!" and you can see why.
> 
> The Damon Rinard link is good reading! Thanks for posting it.


I was under the impression that the high-flange advantage came from the lateral stiffness.
Riding on the track at high speed puts greater side-stress on the wheels and the high-flange, combined with shorter spokes, was supposed to address that.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*You're right.*



Schecky said:


> I was under the impression that the high-flange advantage came from the lateral stiffness.
> Riding on the track at high speed puts greater side-stress on the wheels and the high-flange, combined with shorter spokes, was supposed to address that.


Correct - and the high flange hub *did* contribute to lateral wheel stiffness until the manufacturers started to cut away material to get the weight down. Probably for marketing reasons - it's easy for a customer to compare weights, but not so easy to run a hub flange stiffness test.


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