# Improvement boosters for Cat 1,2,3.....



## heathb

Over the past few years I've noticed many of my local races filled to gills with guys that are absolutely huge and they just keep on getting bigger. 

I was wondering if anyone would think these guys are taking HGH or Testosterone to fuel these large gains in muscle mass.

Skinny guys are getting killed in my scene. I'm convinced at my size 165lbs 6'2" I have absolutely no chance anymore unless I figure out how to gain at least 25lbs of muscle asap. It's intimidating to say the least.

Anyone have experience with this?


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## Dwayne Barry

heathb said:


> I figure out how to gain at least 25lbs of muscle asap.


To gain significant amounts of muscle mass I'd think you're going to need anabolic steriods and probably weight lifting as well. Stuff like HgH and testosterone might help preserve, maybe even add a little bit to someone doing lots of cycling but I hardly think either of those will appreciably increase your muscle mass. It's not even clear they do all that much to add muscle mass for weightlifters.


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## kbiker3111

heathb said:


> Over the past few years I've noticed many of my local races filled to gills with guys that are absolutely huge and they just keep on getting bigger.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone would think these guys are taking HGH or Testosterone to fuel these large gains in muscle mass.
> 
> Skinny guys are getting killed in my scene. I'm convinced at my size 165lbs 6'2" I have absolutely no chance anymore unless I figure out how to gain at least 25lbs of muscle asap. It's intimidating to say the least.
> 
> Anyone have experience with this?


Why do you think skinny guys can't compete? If Levi showed up to your next race, do you think he'd lose? I'd say he's pretty skinny.


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## Wookiebiker

heathb said:


> Over the past few years I've noticed many of my local races filled to gills with guys that are absolutely huge and they just keep on getting bigger.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone would think these guys are taking HGH or Testosterone to fuel these large gains in muscle mass.
> 
> Skinny guys are getting killed in my scene. I'm convinced at my size 165lbs 6'2" I have absolutely no chance anymore unless I figure out how to gain at least 25lbs of muscle asap. It's intimidating to say the least.
> 
> Anyone have experience with this?


Sounds like you only do flat races where size has it's advantages  Head uphill and those big guys go away....fast!

Myself...I look like the "Hulk" on a bike...but then I'm a former collegiate hammer thrower who benched 455 and squatted 650. I haven't lifted in years but am still 5'11" tall and 195-200 pounds and have lost all the upper body mass I'm ever going to lose.

A lot of what you are seeing is specificity of racing...flat stages are for big guys, climbing stages are for little guys. That's why most sprinters are bigger and most climbers are smaller.

I think you may also be seeing a lot of former stick/ball athletes making a transition to cycling to stay in shape since it's easier on their bodies than other sports...which means bigger/larger athletes in the peloton...and in some cases more aggressive riding.

Now that doesn't mean some of those guys are not using PED's of one form or another...it's entirely possible. Many of the masters racers get prescriptions for testosterone shots due to low testosterone levels...and have a prescription making them legal.


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## Andrew1

There's lots of big guys in any crit scene, I think. I'm one of them, but I work my ass off in the gym four days a week. There are plenty of skinny guys too, though. At the end of the day, it's how strong your legs are. 

I think doping is more prevalent in local scenes than many people realize. Their are some very prominent masters riders in the southeast who go as a group to Mexico every spring for some "altitude training".


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## Coolhand

Wookiebiker said:


> Sounds like you only do flat races where size has it's advantages  Head uphill and those big guys go away....fast!
> 
> Myself...I look like the "Hulk" on a bike...but then I'm a former collegiate hammer thrower who benched 455 and squatted 650. I haven't lifted in years but am still 5'11" tall and 195-200 pounds and have lost all the upper body mass I'm ever going to lose.
> 
> A lot of what you are seeing is specificity of racing...flat stages are for big guys, climbing stages are for little guys. That's why most sprinters are bigger and most climbers are smaller.
> 
> I think you may also be seeing a lot of former stick/ball athletes making a transition to cycling to stay in shape since it's easier on their bodies than other sports...which means bigger/larger athletes in the peloton...and in some cases more aggressive riding.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean some of those guys are not using PED's of one form or another...it's entirely possible. Many of the masters racers get prescriptions for testosterone shots due to low testosterone levels...and have a prescription making them legal.


Wouldn't they need to get a TUE to make them racing legal? Can you get a TUE for testosterone?


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## iliveonnitro

Andrew1 said:


> I think doping is more prevalent in local scenes than many people realize. Their are some very prominent masters riders in the southeast who go as a group to Mexico every spring for some "altitude training".


There's a lot more paranoia, too.


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## Coolhand

iliveonnitro said:


> There's a lot more paranoia, too.


"Just because your paranoid, that doesn't they aren't out to get you." I have noticed some _interestingly_ fast times, but figured with the extra training time, top-notch equipment and coaching (and power meters) and the new NC wind tunnel has something to do with it. If not, I can't control it (like guys who cut the course in mtn bike races, or weasels who abuse the free lap rule in crits) so why worry about it. I race clean and within the rules at all times- a win received by cheating would taste like ashes to me. I'd rather lose.


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## Andrea138

There are a couple of guys in my region who I suspect use anabolic steroids. They're heavily muscled- especially in the trapezius, They also look bloated and randomly pimply. I'm half tempted to yank a changing towel off to check for testicular atrophy.


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## Wookiebiker

Coolhand said:


> Wouldn't they need to get a TUE to make them racing legal? Can you get a TUE for testosterone?


If racing on a national level...I would assume you would need one. Whether or not you can get them for testosterone...I don't know, but something tells me you probably can.

At a local and even state level though...nobody is going to ask or care except those that they are beating.


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## Andrew1

iliveonnitro said:


> There's a lot more paranoia, too.


When you have a few 35-40 guys who lap P/1/2 fields in solo breaks on a regular basis there's going be some suspicion. They're amateurs who can simply ride away from guys who get paid to ride their bikes, and yet they don't go pro themselves. 

Plus, rampant speculation is always fun.

Edit: oops, that's supposed to say 35-40 year old guys


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## Wookiebiker

Andrew1 said:


> When you have a few 35-40 guys who lap P/1/2 fields in solo breaks on a regular basis there's going be some suspicion. They're amateurs who can simply ride away from guys who get paid to ride their bikes, and yet they don't go pro themselves.
> 
> Plus, rampant speculation is always fun.
> 
> Edit: oops, that's supposed to say 35-40 year old guys


In their defense...not that there is much of one...the likelihood of any Pro team signing a 35-40 year old rider to their roster is slim to none...and slim just left town  ....Unless of course your name is Lance.

But yea....lapping a P/1/2 field is a bit beyond the norm.


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## iliveonnitro

Andrea138 said:


> There are a couple of guys in my region who I suspect use anabolic steroids. They're heavily muscled- especially in the trapezius, They also look bloated and randomly pimply. I'm half tempted to yank a changing towel off to check for testicular atrophy.


No pix, plz.


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## heathb

I to used to spend 3 hours a day lifting weights and was around 190, the problem was that ate into my time for cycling. 

This is Kansas/Missouri that I race in and we're flat with rolling hills for the most part. I've just noticed that many of the guys that I race with over the past 5 years have gotten bigger and bigger to huge. 5 years ago I was seeing plenty of skinny guys, they've disappeared as of right now and the big boys have taken it over. 

I am going to spend more time lifting weights, but I can't possibly expect to make those kind of gains in a couple of years. 

It just seems odd to me to think that everyone on a team that was faily slim a few years ago is now very big.


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## Einstruzende

Andrew1 said:


> When you have a few 35-40 guys who lap P/1/2 fields in solo breaks on a regular basis there's going be some suspicion. They're amateurs who can simply ride away from guys who get paid to ride their bikes, and yet they don't go pro themselves.
> 
> Plus, rampant speculation is always fun.
> 
> Edit: oops, that's supposed to say 35-40 year old guys


From everything I've heard, for a guy that makes a decent living, he'd have to take a pay cut to race as anything less than an elite pro racing in Europe. 100k+ salaries are pretty common in my local cycling club.


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## turbogrover

Einstruzende said:


> From everything I've heard, for a guy that makes a decent living, he'd have to take a pay cut to race as anything less than an elite pro racing in Europe. 100k+ salaries are pretty common in my local cycling club.


That's what I was going to say. Why would anyone take a paycut, or leave a good career they like, to take a job as a bike racer, when they are already getting near the end of peak cycling ability. You make choices like that when you're twenty years old, and work in a machine shop drilling holes all day. That masters rider that can lap a pro field is either a gifted rider that chose a different career, or he dopes to feed his ego.


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## terzo rene

POWER METERS??!!!?? That's hilarious. PM's don't get you any more power than any other method of training. Used properly they will get you to the same level with less wasted work/better recuperation, but the mountain of your ability ain't going to be any higher with one than without.

Granted the typical US crit course is a waste of time for a climber to even show up at but I'd say muscle fiber type is more of a problem than mass. Zabel was about 145 lbs throughout his career. Didn't seem to hurt him in the sprints too much.


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## AirForceNole

heathb said:


> Over the past few years I've noticed many of my local races filled to gills with guys that are absolutely huge and they just keep on getting bigger.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone would think these guys are taking HGH or Testosterone to fuel these large gains in muscle mass.
> 
> Skinny guys are getting killed in my scene. I'm convinced at my size 165lbs 6'2" I have absolutely no chance anymore unless I figure out how to gain at least 25lbs of muscle asap. It's intimidating to say the least.
> 
> Anyone have experience with this?


As someone who weight lifted for 10 years before even touching a bike, You need to freaking EAT!!! the big issue is you need to eat mass amounts of protein, probably injesting near 250g a day, so Eggs and Oatmeal for breakfast, Fish, Fish, chicken for lunch 1 lunch 2 and dinner.


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## ibericb

It's Thursday - time for a good thread dredge.


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## pedalbiker

Interesting old thread. Where I live we have lots of rolling courses and technicalish (sometimes) crits. The best riders are generally all between 150 and 170. There's the odd guy out that's a bit heavier (and more specialized), as well as the super tiny dude that's so strong and small they can sit in on most breaks and do everything anything else (but sprint), but the 190 lb+ dude that's railing it in the finale is rare.


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## thighmaster

I wonder about many. I train with a pm and my power hasn't changed much in the last 5 years. I can tell you those around me have gone from better than me, to way better than me. I really notice it in crits and cross. Now I know over time it's hard to compare as we all have different pontial and training commitments, but when you go from contender to pack filler with the same guys, it makes you wonder.


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## BacDoc

Even though it's an old thread it still is interesting. The OP asked about gaining 25 lbs of muscle. Yes, it is possible, but you have to be a "good responder" and put a lot of time in the gym. The PED's by themselves are not going to do that much muscle mass increase.

For thighmaster, with age we tend to plateau and one of the reasons is the aging body cannot take the extra training needed to break thru the plateau. Upping your training can lead to repetitive stress and chronic inflammation which leads to injury. Somewhere around 30% of my practice (musculo/skeletal) is the result of overtraining in the middle aged athlete.

I agree with Coolhand, and his statement about winning juiced, but I suspect a lot of competitive amateurs are just like the pros and that thought never bothers them. Most older athletes will see gains from PED's as they allow faster and more efficient recovery. Test will give you some anabolic benefits and will also affect intensity in training, i.e., it will give you that added push to do harder intensity and give full effort opposed to the "gassed" feeling that most older athletes feel when the up their workouts. HGH will give you the ability to gain muscle mass, increase capillary beds and make more red blood cells. The way that works best is injectable, Test is intra muscular and HGH can be either intra muscular or sub cutaneous. You can get prescriptions pretty easily for both, Test is dirt cheap but HGH can run over $1000/month and you get best results if done for months at a time.

Easier, cheaper and less side effects and maybe quasi legal for competition are the SARMS. Most are oral capsule doses and readily available of the internet no prescription required. Sites that sell SARMS will often take credit card so no wire transfers needed. I suspect a lot of these are used more than Test or HGH. You get some of the same benefits without some of the side effects of injectable hormones.


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## CabDoctor

BacDoc said:


> Easier, cheaper and less side effects and maybe quasi legal for competition are the SARMS. Most are oral capsule doses and readily available of the internet no prescription required. Sites that sell SARMS will often take credit card so no wire transfers needed. I suspect a lot of these are used more than Test or HGH. You get some of the same benefits without some of the side effects of injectable hormones.


They aren't quasi anything, they're straight banned.


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## aclinjury

HGH will tend to make everything in the body grow, e.g., the gut will also grow out giving you that bloated tummy.


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## doctormike

I have noticed some of the master's teams in California in advertising for supplements that boost "natural EPO". I spoke with some of them and asked if they have every been tested because they are a successful team and if you are in a magazine talking about a supplement then that might raise a flag. None of them have ever been tested at the local level. 

I know that my local racing association started charging an additional fee because they were going to start testing this year at local races. I never saw them, not to say that they didn't, but I do know that USAC didn't match the funds they raised like they were supposed to. 

I am sure there are people legitimately doping, others who never needed a TUE for their adderall, and some supplement contamination cases. I really don't care because there is nothing I can do about it. So I just train and take my lumps when I get beat.


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## pedalbiker

doctormike said:


> I have noticed some of the master's teams in California in advertising for supplements that boost "natural EPO". I spoke with some of them and asked if they have every been tested because they are a successful team and if you are in a magazine talking about a supplement then that might raise a flag. None of them have ever been tested at the local level.


That crap is worthless. 

Aside from caffeine, anything that will have a tangible effect on fitness is banned. Even stuff that doesn't have a tangible effect on fitness but will mask things that do are banned. 

EPO Boost and that other gimmicky stuff is just peddled by charlatans. Useless.


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## doctormike

pedalbiker said:


> That crap is worthless.
> 
> Aside from caffeine, anything that will have a tangible effect on fitness is banned. Even stuff that doesn't have a tangible effect on fitness but will mask things that do are banned.
> 
> EPO Boost and that other gimmicky stuff is just peddled by charlatans. Useless.


I agree that most is useless or banned. The point I wanted to make was if anyone was really going to start testing those would be an obvious target but we pay to race and are largely ignored by usac for everything else.


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## BacDoc

CabDoctor said:


> They aren't quasi anything, they're straight banned.


Yes banned but is there a specific test that will identify SARMS? Can blood or urine test identify LGD-4033 or MK-77? Curious if you have a link.

I used the word "quasi" due to their low detect ability as they are not hormones and do not aromatize. I would like to know if there is a test, as I'm not aware of anything other than mass spectrometer chromatography.

Of course when you get down to it you can really test for anything but I seriously doubt even at the pro level they are doing something like this:

SARM-S4 and metabolites detection in sports drug testing: a case report. - PubMed - NCBI


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## BacDoc

aclinjury said:


> HGH will tend to make everything in the body grow, e.g., the gut will also grow out giving you that bloated tummy.


This only happens when exceptionally high doses are administered, body builders in the bulking stage shooting 8-10 iu's a day and stacking with testosterone and other anabolics.

I don't prescribe, but I co manage patients (none that are racing bikes) on hormone therapy for variety of reasons. I've seen hundreds of blood results and patients in the flesh and the bloated abdomen is only seen in stacking cycles of competitive body builders bulking and shooting really high doses.

Doses of 2-3 iu's per day can be administered long term with no bloated abdomen. These doses can give great results with recovery, rebuilding and training gains in general. Weight gain, especially muscle growth is heavily dependent on resistance training, caloric demand and caloric intake. In other words, competitive cyclists can get great great gains and break thru plateaus without gaining weight or bloated abdomens even on high doses of 4-6 iu's per day.

Anytime you hear of a pro getting seriously injured (fractures etc) you can bet they are on cycles of HGH and Test because it really does work and healing times can be cut in half.


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## CabDoctor

BacDoc said:


> Yes banned but is there a specific test that will identify SARMS? Can blood or urine test identify LGD-4033 or MK-77? Curious if you have a link.


Yes, they "can" show up in blood and urine up to 40 days after the last dose. WADA "does" have a test for those. Guys in our field are mainly getting popped for the PPARO (similar to SARM and often mistaken for on) GW501516. 

"At the Vuelta Ciclista a Costa Rica in December 2012 four Costa Rican riders tested positive for GW501516. Three of them received two-year suspensions, while the fourth got 12 years as it was his second doping violation.[21][22][23] In April 2013, Russian cyclicst Valery Kaykov was suspended by cycling's governing body UCI after having tested positive for GW501516. Kaykov's team RusVelo sacked him immediately[24] and in May 2013, Venezuelan Miguel Ubeto was provisionally suspended by the Lampre team."

Other things like s4 and what not occasionally show up. A lot of MMA guys are taking them without any problem, even taking them the day of the drug test. So there you go...


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## BacDoc

CabDoctor said:


> Yes, they "can" show up in blood and urine up to 40 days after the last dose. WADA "does" have a test for those. Guys in our field are mainly getting popped for the PPARO (similar to SARM and often mistaken for on) GW501516.
> 
> Other things like s4 and what not occasionally show up. A lot of MMA guys are taking them without any problem, even taking them the day of the drug test. So there you go...


Wow, the test for SARMS is way more expensive and complicated than tests for hormones like Test, HGH and EPO. I know at Olympic/pro level they can do it but I'm really surprised that testing at the amateur level is being done. Mass spectrometry is pricey.

Sports like MMA, CrossFit etc usually don't have much testing and never off season which is one of the best strategies for getting gains without being caught.

Someone at my gym just told me that a starting QB for a major college team tested positive for LGD-4033 recently. I don't know details but guessing it's more of guilt by association. I doubt they got a positive SARM result but maybe his Testosterone was elevated to a level that was abnormal but no exogenous Test was positive. I would like to read about the specifics in this case.


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## atpjunkie

BacDoc said:


> Wow, the test for SARMS is way more expensive and complicated than tests for hormones like Test, HGH and EPO. I know at Olympic/pro level they can do it but I'm really surprised that testing at the amateur level is being done. Mass spectrometry is pricey.
> 
> Sports like MMA, CrossFit etc usually don't have much testing and never off season which is one of the best strategies for getting gains without being caught.
> 
> Someone at my gym just told me that a starting QB for a major college team tested positive for LGD-4033 recently. I don't know details but guessing it's more of guilt by association. I doubt they got a positive SARM result but maybe his Testosterone was elevated to a level that was abnormal but no exogenous Test was positive. I would like to read about the specifics in this case.


same goes for all the big US sports. No out of season testing. Do a cycle or 2 during the off season and a 2-4 week cleanse before training camp


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## Rip Van Cycle

aclinjury said:


> HGH will tend to make everything in the body grow, e.g., the gut will also grow out giving you that bloated tummy.


Interesting to note this- I've never been exposed to this perspective before...

At the highest rung of an (admittedly recreational) club ride relatively local to me, there are a couple/few guys that roll with the highest or second-highest level group, and they have _gut_s. Curious looking, kangaroo-pouch shaped guts-- nothing on the flanks, everything in front. Now, I've gotten okay-quick in a relatively short amount of time [even though I'm nowhere near the same 'time-zone' as even the very lowest-level of racing cyclists]. A couple of the them can ride level-pegging with me with little apparent stress. One in particular can blast me off the back-end of his wheel at will. I first thought to myself- maybe they've spent decades in the saddle, have near optimal oxygen-transference abilities, have the physiological equivalent of virtually eidetic muscle-memory, getting maximal return in forward momentum for comparatively economical effort-cost. [And perhaps don't do _anything else_ in the way of cross-training.] 

Some or all of this may be true... but my eyes have been opened to an additional possibility...


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## CabDoctor

How fast are you guys going?


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## Alaska Mike

Rip Van Cycle said:


> Some or all of this may be true... but my eyes have been opened to an additional possibility...


Here's my take:
- It's a recreational ride, so they are not bound to any international anti-doping code.
- When I ride but don't pay attention to anything else (like diet), I pack it on in the front. I guess that's where my fat cells like to hang out. They may be similar.
- They do have more experience than you, and could likely be more genetically gifted.
- If they are doping, there's nothing that you can do about it.

So:
- Maximize your own potential. No, I'm not suggesting doping. Train hard, rest hard, eat right, and do all the things you're supposed to do.
- Keep trying to hang with them. If they are doping, you'll be getting some of the benefits without all of the side-effects.
- Don't let it cross your mind again. In this case it will do you no good.


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## Alaska Mike

The little research I did on SARMS (just because I wasn't familiar with them), particularly GW-501516, pretty much scared the crap out of me. No way would I get near that garbage without a very serious health condition and a ethical doctor providing the treatment. Even if you got the actual drugs, in a accurate dosage, and in a sterile and stable manner (which is a crapshoot since they're pretty much all black market), the way researchers and drug companies abandoned them tells me they're far more dangerous than we know at the moment.

Sorry, my long-term health is much more important than pedaling a little faster on a bike.


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## BacDoc

Alaska Mike said:


> The little research I did on SARMS (just because I wasn't familiar with them), particularly GW-501516, pretty much scared the crap out of me. No way would I get near that garbage without a very serious health condition and a ethical doctor providing the treatment. Even if you got the actual drugs, in a accurate dosage, and in a sterile and stable manner (which is a crapshoot since they're pretty much all black market), the way researchers and drug companies abandoned them tells me they're far more dangerous than we know at the moment.
> 
> Sorry, my long-term health is much more important than pedaling a little faster on a bike.


There are many SARMS so it's hard to make generalizations. LGD-4033 and MK-677 have been tested in peer review and yes there are side effects. Those side effects include increase in muscle mass and bone density.

If you search the articles, test subjects are usually older, osteoporotic women and patients bed ridden from injury and suffering muscle wasting. Since they are not hormones, the usual endocrine side effects are not seen. Body builders using high doses of SARMs do not have to use post cycle therapy to adjust hormone imbalance like they do with steroids.

Yes they are black market so there is variability but the sellers make money on return business so its in their best interest to use pharmaceutical grade. Some body builders are more knowledgeable than endocrinologists when it comes to this and there are websites that rate the manufactures based on quality and consistency. Ever see a website that compares Statin drugs? 

I'm not advocating the use of SARMs but generally they are a lot safer than steroids. Even FDA approved substances can result in coma or death. The reason that they(SARMs) are not approved has little to do with safety. OTC anti-inflammatories kill more in one year than all of the SARMs combined. In fact in the peer review literature there are no fatalities from any of the SARMs that I have searched.

It is always best to avoid all exogenous chemistry for pure health reasons but muscle wasting disease and osteoporosis I would choose MK-677 and LGD-4033 over Boniva any day.


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## vagabondcyclist

Given the recent reports of Master's level doping, a good thread dredge. 

From my perspective, there's a lot of something going on in amateur racing (just not 1, 2, 3...). I raced a bit in the mid to late 90s, then again in collegiate while in grad school. I was pack fodder, but in the pack consistently. I took about 5 or 6 years off after grad school and was blown away at how fast everyone had gotten (and how slow I had gotten). I advise my university's collegiate club. While even the collegiate racers have gotten faster, it's not quite like the local Cat 5 or 4 scene. A couple of my guys who did well in collegiate had a hard time hanging in Cat 5 and 4. When 22-23 year olds are getting smoked by 35 year olds....And yeah it might be the 35 year just trained and ate better and did so consistently, but....


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