# Outside the box tandem wheel build



## WheresWaldo

This is a project I am working on for our next tandem.

*Background:*
My stoker and I are purchasing a new custom carbon tandem for delivery in the beginning of 2009. We are solely looking for a performance ride. We do not tour, we do not ride loaded, we do not travel anywhere we can't get to by car in a few hours.

I have most of the tools necessary to build up a bike with the exception of a few frame tools. I build most of my own wheels. I have built wheels with over 20,000 miles that are still true and round.

We are not a light team, with the expected weight of the new bike we should be around 360 pounds.

*Goal:*
Light, smooth rolling, easy to accelerate tubular wheelset. It must be rideable every single day. Tubulars because that is what I ride. I like the feel, I enjoy performance while cornering of a good tubular tire. So taking a cue from the conformists that tell every rider in the Wheels & Tires sub-forum that Ultegra/Open Pro/32 hole/3 cross seem to be the only option they espouse, I am building a set for the tandem with a few minor changes.

*Parts List:*
_Hubs_ are going to be one of the smoothest best built hubs on the market. I will be using a Dura-Ace 7800 front hub, not the lightest but a very robust hub. one of the key factors was Shimano's continued use of loose balls and cup and cones. This bearing type is much better at handling side loads than sealed bearings and are easily serviceable. The rear hub is also Shimano, a Dura-Ace 7850, in the case of the 7850 Shimano tweaked a few dimentions to get better bracing angles. The 7850 also went back to the old splines making it 8/9/10 speed compatible. The freehub also went back to Titanium. The observant will notice that the hub is only available in a 130 mm OLD. We are using standard road spacing on the back of our new tandem!

_Rims_, remember I said tubular. I was going to go with Velocity Pro Elites (tubular version of the Deep V), but I didn't want to deal with rims over 520 grams each. So my next choice was the Velocity Escape (tubular version of the Fusion). You simply never know what you are going to get with Velocity. Will it be overweight? Will it be round? You buy it and hope for the best. So my best bet was Kinlin TB25. Everything I have read has been a rave review of the Kinlin, listed as strong, straight, round, able to handle high tension.

_Spokes_, Sapim CX-Ray! Not much more need be said.

_Build_, 32 hole 3 cross front and rear. With high spoke tension, strong spokes and a traditional spoke pattern, these will build up a particularly stong and stiff wheel set.

*Miscellaneous:*
I did not post this on the Wheels sub-forum because I know the reponses I will get will be the same old stuff reguretated over and over again. It is not like I picked these components out of the air, I have some experience with all of them in various other wheel bulding projects. Building them in a standard road configuration will also allow me to "test" them on real roads before the tandem ever arrives. I also got some input from some wheel builders I respect and they all think it will work and hold up well. One of them actually said they had a similar tandem build for a client that now has over 15,000 miles without incident. We do not put many miles on our tandem. I am a single bike rider that also rides a tandem, my stoker is a tandem rider that also rides a single bike, last year our tandem had about 600 miles and this year about 1000. With school, work, and life I expect this set of wheels to last a lifetime on our new tandem.


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## MB1

My first thoughts;

What is the rear dropout spacing going to be?

I've rolled tubulars on a tandem by melting the glue on a not very long downhill. I've also seen the backing tape seperate from the rest of the tubular on a downhill. OTOH if you avoid the big hills I can't see tubulars being that much of a problem.

To me 32 spokes on the rear for a 360lb team just doesn't seem like anywhere near enough. I've always thought that 32 or 28 on the front should be fine-no reason to have the same number of spokes on the front and rear (how about 28 front and 36 rear-same number of spokes overall and a stronger rear wheel).

You really aren't talking about a whole lot of miles for all the dough you are spending. I bet it will be a rocket ship though......


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## WheresWaldo

MB1 said:


> My first thoughts;
> 
> What is the rear dropout spacing going to be?


 Standard road spacing of 130 mm OLD, it was mentioned in the first post.



MB1 said:


> I've rolled tubulars on a tandem by melting the glue on a not very long downhill. I've also seen the backing tape seperate from the rest of the tubular on a downhill.


 I have about 51,000 miles in my lifetime riding on tubulars, when I raced I road about 8,000 miles per year, I have never had a tubular roll off a rim for any reason. I don't expect one now. Besides if you rolled a tubular by melting the glue you would also most likely have blown off a clincher in the same situation. Again, we don't tour, we don't ride loaded, we don't ride up or down many mountains.



MB1 said:


> To me 32 spokes on the rear for a 360lb team just doesn't seem like anywhere near enough.


Yes that is also what the BikeForum posters would say. After my racing days, I put on a lot of weight, fact is in Jan '06 I weighed 350 pounds. I did manage to get my old Klein out for a short spin or two even at that weight. not many miles, but most on 24 or 28 spoked wheels. I now weigh 200. I spoke to a few builders, nearly all agree that 32 spokes is sufficient even at this weight.



MB1 said:


> You really aren't talking about a whole lot of miles for all the dough you are spending.


 Yes you are correct, why buy a Ferrari when a Kia will do?

Another note about spoke count. Why is it that people will rave about Rolf Vigors or Shimano Sweet 16s with their rediculously low spoke counts and paired spoke design on tandems but a solid 32 hole 3 cross is never enough?


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## WheresWaldo

Just a side note, I have a quote from a reputable east coast wheel builder that given all the information above he would build us a wheel set, speced with deep carbon rims at 28 holes. Also when I ordered the parts for this build, a different builder suggested 28 holes for the front rather than the 32 I plan on using.


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## Creakyknees

Sounds like you got it all thought out... and the experience to know you're right. I say go for it and post pix when it's built.

Of course, the carbon will probably explode underneath you, but that's a whole different issue.


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## WheresWaldo

Creakyknees said:


> Sounds like you got it all thought out... and the experience to know you're right. I say go for it and post pix when it's built.
> 
> Of course, the carbon will probably explode underneath you, but that's a whole different issue.


Thank CK, I will post a picture when done. I think that because of the way our society is, many recreational items are over engineered. I have always played with boundaries and I don't really feel like I am too close to any here. Like I said, I can always test them on a single before they ever see a tandem. If I feel like they are too weak (which I don't) I can always use them as training wheels on a single and move to 36 hole wheels instead.

It will be interesting to see a carbon explosion.

I forgot to mention, estimated wheel set weight should be under 1700 grams, a heck of a lot lighter than Topolinos at a much cheaper price.


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## Keeping up with Junior

*Our Build*

Our Build


> ...36 spoke, four cross DT spokes with brass nipples.
> Phil Woods Hub, Shimano spline, Santana spacing.
> Black Velocity Aerohead Deep V 36 hole rim.


Our rolling weight is about 300 # (Bike 35# Captain 160# Stoker 105#) unladen touring and fast club riding. Will ocassionally even show up at the local Tuesday Night World Championships and put the hurt on the racer boys.

We have run these wheels for a few years and have never had to touch them with a spoke wrench for 15000 miles. Does that mean they are overbuilt? Could we get by with 32 spokes? Could you? Note that in the tandem world 36 spokes are considered low count wheels (except for some factory wheels that from time to time have warranty issues).

I am not a wheelbuilder so will leave it up to you what you build. Just wanted to throw my numbers and experience out there to give you a reference point. 



MB1 said:


> ...To me 32 spokes on the rear for a 360lb team just doesn't seem like anywhere near enough...


Kind of agree here, especially because of the dishing without the wider rear spacing of 145mm typically on tandems. So you may want to go with more spokes or heavier drive side spokes. Isnt the way the factory wheels get away with low spoke counts is by using heavier rims? If so would the Velocity Pro Elites make more sense at least in the rear?



MB1 said:


> ...no reason to have the same number of spokes on the front and rear...


Not for this users application. However when touring with a tandem if you blow out the rear rim you can relace the wide spaced rear hub to the still good front rim. Coming up with a replacement rear tandem wheel can be a challenge but finding a spare front wheel is pretty easy.


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## Keeping up with Junior

*Forums and Factories*



WheresWaldo said:


> Yes that is also what the BikeForum posters would say...


You might do a search on tandem at hobbes. This group will probably be even more conservative than other forums but you may get lucky and find someone who has some experience with your proposed build specs. Use this search engine:

http://search.bikelist.org/



WheresWaldo said:


> Another note about spoke count. Why is it that people will rave about Rolf Vigors or Shimano Sweet 16s with their rediculously low spoke counts and paired spoke design on tandems but a solid 32 hole 3 cross is never enough?


Isnt the typical handbuilt vs. factory built argument that the factory built wheels are pigs because they have to use heavier/stiffer rims (perimeter weight) to make up for the lower number of spokes. So without the heavier rim and the dish from the narrower spacing your build is not really comparable to what Rolf and Shimano are putting out. With the deep dish carbon though you may be able to get the stiffer rim without the weight penalty.


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## WheresWaldo

Keeping up with Junior said:


> You might do a search on tandem at hobbes. This group will probably be even more conservative than other forums but you may get lucky and find someone who has some experience with your proposed build specs. Use this search engine:
> 
> http://search.bikelist.org/


Thanks for the search link. I subscribe to T&H but never really used it since I didn't know how to search it. I have now found many posts with good info on 130mm spacing and low spoke count wheels (less than 36 spokes) on tandems with more good than bad.


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## sine

Our current go fast tandem wheelset. 

Kinlin 30 rims
WI hubset, whatever the current one is, 135 rear. 
CX-ray spokes, brass washers rear, 3x
al nips
32F-36R

Weight as measured by builder (in NM) is less than 1650g. Our builder originally wanted to build 28-32 (our team weight is around 305lbs) but I said no way. I was right. Front 28 with al rims would have been to soft when hammering out of the saddle on climbs. 

Clinchers of course. Those conti 4000 s 23c are really good.

I expect the above wheelset to last 3-4 years, roughly 5-6k miles. 

I ride tubulars on my single, but there is no way my wife would accept tubulars on the tandem. I would not either. I agree with what mb1 posted regarding tubulars and heat build up. 

I did build a deep 58 carbon clincher aero tandem front wheel years ago (still use it) thats 32 spokes and is stiff as anything. I think a deep carbon rim (like zipp 404 clincher rim) with 28 spokes front, 32 rear will work just fine.


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## DeLuz

We have a few things in common, I build my own wheels for all my bikes and have a tandem (Santana Sovereign). I don't understand your affinity to sew ups but I won't try to talk you out of them other than I thought I read somewhere that clinchers have lower rolling resistance than sew ups. For my last wheel set I used Hadley hubs (160 mm rear), Velocity Fusion rims and 36 DB SS spokes (DT). I have been very happy with these wheels, the 160mm rear allows for zero dish which has resulted in a very strong reliable wheel that rarely needs truing. With a 130mm rear because of the dishing I would be concerned about using 32 spokes, I don't know that it won't work but I think saving the weight of 4 spokes does not make sense. On the other hand I have had wheels with as few as 16 spokes on my single bike. I don't use those anymore because the spokes had extremely high tension and when one would break the wheel was so out of true I could not ride home. I have used Dura Ace hubs on my single bike and I think they are really good hubs, but for some reason Shimano made the spoke holes on the hub flange smaller than most other hubs including Ultegra. This makes installing normal DB spokes very difficult, I had to put grease on them to get them through the hole. Its not often, but sometimes I break a spoke on these wheels and I attribute it to the small spoke holes. I know the Hadley hubs have heavy duty bearings and they are very easy to service. Enjoy your new tandem it sounds awesome.


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