# Aerodynamics and Disc Brakes



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

An interesting article discussing how some of the major bike manufacturers are looking at the issue:

What the Specialized Venge ViAS Disc suggests for the future of aero disc road bikes | CyclingTips


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm glad to hear Chris Yu confirming my thoughts that the disc caliper was well protected enough by the fork/frame that it would be just as aero, if not better than a standard rim brake kit mounted on the fork and seat stays. 

And honestly, who gives a damn (other than pros) about 3-5 seconds over 40km?? I like the way aero bikes look and I like the way disc brakes stop. Give me both of those things together and I'll buy your bike.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

dcorn said:


> I'm glad to hear Chris Yu confirming my thoughts that the disc caliper was well protected enough by the fork/frame that it would be just as aero, if not better than a standard rim brake kit mounted on the fork and seat stays.
> 
> And honestly, who gives a damn (other than pros) about 3-5 seconds over 40km?? I like the way aero bikes look and I like the way disc brakes stop. Give me both of those things together and I'll buy your bike.


I pretty much agree, but I am kind of into almost any nice race oriented bike with disc brakes. Right now, I like the new Scott Addict Disc a lot, given what you get for the price, and I am still keeping an eye on the new Felt FR Disc, Giant TCR Disc, Focus Paralane, and Cannondale Supersix Evo Disc. If Specialized had a Venge Disc or Ridley had a Noah SL Disc for about $1000 cheaper, I would be very intrigued. I also think the spy shots for the Canyon Aero Road Disc are pretty impressive.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

The clean look of this bike is appealing to me more and more every day. I don't think BMC is marketing it as an "Aero" bike, but the internal cables and hoses around the stem sure to make it look clean.

This is the Ultegra Di2 RM-01 with their proprietary aero stem and hydraulic discs.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Migen21 said:


> The clean look of this bike is appealing to me more and more every day. I don't think BMC is marketing it as an "Aero" bike, but the internal cables and hoses around the stem sure to make it look clean.
> 
> This is the Ultegra Di2 RM-01 with their proprietary aero stem and hydraulic discs.


Yeah, price is the only thing that's keeping the RM01 off of my short list. You don't get all of the cool features with the RM02, which is still more expensive than new Scott Addict 30 Disc.

SCOTT Sports - SCOTT Addict 30 Disc Bike

Scott adds disc brakes to Addict race bike | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I would love to see a set of these dropped on some of these bikes and to have a chance to take it out for a day. $2700 MSRP.

ENVE introduces Smart ENVE System 4.5 AR Disc | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Migen21 said:


> This is the Ultegra Di2 RM-01 with their proprietary aero stem and hydraulic discs.


Looks great! Only if I could afford it, maybe one day...


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

I have a TCR advanced pro disc coming in a couple of weeks, building up with Ui2 and some Enve wheels. Super excited 



.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> I pretty much agree, but I am kind of into almost any nice race oriented bike with disc brakes. Right now, I like the new Scott Addict Disc a lot, given what you get for the price, and I am still keeping an eye on the new Felt FR Disc, Giant TCR Disc, Focus Paralane, and Cannondale Supersix Evo Disc. If Specialized had a Venge Disc or Ridley had a Noah SL Disc for about $1000 cheaper, I would be very intrigued. I also think the spy shots for the Canyon Aero Road Disc are pretty impressive.


I'm with you. I think discs make every bike look better because they don't have the brakes sticking out off the fork and seat stays. I like aero bikes in general because they just look more like supercars, but I also think a lot of the non-aero bikes are looking better than ever. Bianchi came out with an Oltre XR2 disc a few years ago and I would have bought it that day if I could ever find one. 

View attachment 315908


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

dcorn said:


> ... And honestly, who gives a damn (other than pros) about 3-5 seconds over 40km?? .. .


Well, I'm just an ordinary amateur racer, and on a rolling terrain TT race of about 15 miles, I lost a place by just 1 sec per mile. Aero matters for practical reasons, not just because of "looks".
And no one I know has ever believed their road race performance was impaired because of rim brakes. 
You can easily "endo" on rim brakes ... you're not brake limited on a road bike under virtually all conditions. 
Lots of marketing hype & puffery associated with discs on road bikes.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

tom_h said:


> Well, I'm just an ordinary amateur racer, and on a rolling terrain TT race of about 15 miles, I lost a place by just 1 sec per mile. Aero matters for practical reasons, not just because of "looks".
> And no one I know has ever believed their road race performance was impaired because of rim brakes.
> You can easily "endo" on rim brakes ... you're not brake limited on a road bike under virtually all conditions.
> Lots of marketing hype & puffery associated with discs on road bikes.


To each his own, but I literally just got off of a 2016 Focus Cayo Disc a local shop has on closeout a little less than four hours ago and I like them. I am not into time trials, so my concerns and interests aren't the same as yours, but if they come on a bike that isn't weighed down by them much like Focus builds, I will take the extra modulation and stopping power in the rain over the relatively minor aerodynamic gains a frameset gives you any day. You can get the majority of aerodynamic gains that anyone has on any bike by working on flexibility and spending more time in the drops, cleaning up the front end of your bike, adding aero bars and aero wheels, and wearing an aero kit. In fact, a number of people would argue that there is as much hype (if not more) behind pushing the idea that aero framesets are the key to speed my friend. If aero truly was the key to everything to everyone, no manufacturer would make a bike like the Tarmac, Roubaix, Giant TCR, Trek Emonda, TRek Domane, Felt FR, Scott Addict, etc and pros wouldn't win as many races on them as they do.

At the end of the day, all bikes have strengths and weaknesses and we all have to decide what is a priority for us. There are no real wrong answers. For some it will be to be as aero as possible. For others, it will be stiffness to weight and other folks will focus on comfort for long days in the saddle. Like I said, to each his own. I like disc brakes though and they will be on my next road bike.

And don't just take my word for it:

Focus Izalco Max Disc review - Cycling Weekly

Focus Izalco Max Disc Dura-Ace Mix review - BikeRadar USA


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

MoPho said:


> I have a TCR advanced pro disc coming in a couple of weeks, building up with Ui2 and some Enve wheels. Super excited
> 
> 
> 
> .


Sounds sweet, that bike will look sharp with a set of Enve wheels. Looking forward to seeing pics. Are you building it up from a frameset or did you go with the orange and black complete bike? 

I am really feeling tempted toward going for this Cayo Disc I tested today. I went into the day not really in a hurry to do anything and more interested in the BMC Roadmachine 02 and Focus Izalco Max Disc, but the performance and value was so impressive. The Izalco Max Disc is my new favorite bike, but it is an expensive one and there are only two disc models for 2017. One comes with red eTap and the other comes with Dura Ace Di2, so you can imagine where the price point is ($6k and $7k). The shop also has one 2016 Sram Red mechanical they are selling for a little over $5k, but all of those more than double (or triple+) the price of the Cayo Disc.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

tom_h said:


> Well, I'm just an ordinary amateur racer, and on a rolling terrain TT race of about 15 miles, I lost a place by just 1 sec per mile. Aero matters for practical reasons, not just because of "looks".
> And no one I know has ever believed their road race performance was impaired because of rim brakes.
> You can easily "endo" on rim brakes ... you're not brake limited on a road bike under virtually all conditions.
> Lots of marketing hype & puffery associated with discs on road bikes.


OK, so don't buy a TT bike with disc brakes. Sounds like you are already covered. 

I, on the other hand, would love an aero shaped bike for the cool looks but I want the discs for practical stopping power on my casual rides, especially in inclement weather. Going down steep hills or panic stopping when a car cuts you off is not fun when it's raining and the brakes do nothing for the first few seconds.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> Sounds sweet, that bike will look sharp with a set of Enve wheels. Looking forward to seeing pics. Are you building it up from a frameset or did you go with the orange and black complete bike?
> 
> I am really feeling tempted toward going for this Cayo Disc I tested today. I went into the day not really in a hurry to do anything and more interested in the BMC Roadmachine 02 and Focus Izalco Max Disc, but the performance and value was so impressive. The Izalco Max Disc is my new favorite bike, but it is an expensive one and there are only two disc models for 2017. One comes with red eTap and the other comes with Dura Ace Di2, so you can imagine where the price point is ($6k and $7k). The shop also has one 2016 Sram Red mechanical they are selling for a little over $5k, but all of those more than double (or triple+) the price of the Cayo Disc.



I am building it up from the frameset. I fully intended to buy the orange and black complete bike, especially since I have an orange and black sportscar but it turns out the orange is nothing like in the photos. It is retina burning safety vest neon orange, was pretty disappointing. So I bought a frameset in the other colorway sight unseen, hopefully it looks good (would rather not deal with painting it). Unfortunately for my wallet, it will end up costing a lot more, mainly because of the Enve wheels. Figure with disc, the wheels will last a long time and can go on the next bike so worth the investment. 
I did a 50 mile ride on a demo and managed to PR 4 climbs despite the "extra weight and worse aero" than my current TCR SL. Of course the brakes and UI2 are amazing. 
Those Focus are really nice too. I really love my TCR, it's really fantastic
for technical descending, which I do a lot of, so I've been waiting for the disc version to come out. 


.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

tom_h said:


> Well, I'm just an ordinary amateur racer, and on a rolling terrain TT race of about 15 miles, I lost a place by just 1 sec per mile. Aero matters for practical reasons, not just because of "looks".
> And no one I know has ever believed their road race performance was impaired because of rim brakes.
> You can easily "endo" on rim brakes ... you're not brake limited on a road bike under virtually all conditions.
> Lots of marketing hype & puffery associated with discs on road bikes.



How do you know that your 15s deficit was down to aero and not strength, training, what you had for breakfast, etc.?













I think Parlee claims it is as aero or more aero than the rim brake version, but as you say, that could be marketing hype and puffery associated with aero claims. 

And disc brakes are not about absolute power to endo or lock up the brakes, it's about better controlling that power.
One surprise I had with disc brakes is that it was easier to maintain position feathering the rear brake when riding in a group, rim brakes are black or white, disc are 50 shades of gray LOL. 


.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

MoPho said:


> I am building it up from the frameset. I fully intended to buy the orange and black complete bike, especially since I have an orange and black sportscar but it turns out the orange is nothing like in the photos. It is retina burning safety vest neon orange, was pretty disappointing. So I bought a frameset in the other colorway sight unseen, hopefully it looks good (would rather not deal with painting it). Unfortunately for my wallet, it will end up costing a lot more, mainly because of the Enve wheels. Figure with disc, the wheels will last a long time and can go on the next bike so worth the investment.
> I did a 50 mile ride on a demo and managed to PR 4 climbs despite the "extra weight and worse aero" than my current TCR SL. Of course the brakes and UI2 are amazing.
> Those Focus are really nice too. I really love my TCR, it's really fantastic
> for technical descending, which I do a lot of, so I've been waiting for the disc version to come out.
> ...


Wise choice man. I actually think the TCR Advanced Pro Disc frameset looks pretty cool. The complete build could be a stunner when you are done. It's a nice mix of colors. If I go with one of the Focus bikes (which is likely at this point), I will likely spend a bit on wheels as well. Right now, I am looking at the Fulcrum Quattro Carbon Disc (seem like a great value), Enve SES 4.5 ATR, Reynolds Assault SLG Disc, and Bontrager Aelous 5 Disc. The ability to run them tubeless is a must have, so these seem to be the best values/options right now if you aren't going with something like Yoeleo. Di2 and eTap are the bee's knees, one of those two are the plan for me long-term as well. Leaning toward eTap right now, but budget will likely dictate the final call.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> Wise choice man. I actually think the TCR Advanced Pro Disc frameset looks pretty cool. The complete build could be a stunner when you are done. It's a nice mix of colors. If I go with one of the Focus bikes (which is likely at this point), I will likely spend a bit on wheels as well. Right now, I am looking at the Fulcrum Quattro Carbon Disc (seem like a great value), Enve SES 4.5 ATR, Reynolds Assault SLG Disc, and Bontrager Aelous 5 Disc. The ability to run them tubeless is a must have, so these seem to be the best values/options right now if you aren't going with something like Yoeleo. Di2 and eTap are the bee's knees, one of those two are the plan for me long-term as well. Leaning toward eTap right now, but budget will likely dictate the final call.


I had to give up on the eTap dream, too much money and I don't want to wait for the release date.... I need it now damnit!!! (or in 2-3 weeks  )


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

MoPho said:


> I had to give up on the eTap dream, too much money and I don't want to wait for the release date.... I need it now damnit!!! (or in 2-3 weeks  )


I think I might be with ya, I priced UDi2 and DA Di2 sets today actually and they are significantly more affordable, plus, like you pointed out, you don't have to worry about delivery dates, etc. A guy at the shop said some Asian shipping company has collapsed and that might complicate delivery times on some things again. I am not interested in being caught up in that jazz, but I may have to deal with it. 

I am pretty much down to these three (one complete bike that is a serious deal, one frameset that is still a good value, and my dream bike). I think I like the Addict a bit more than the Cayo, but it is hard to pass on the price I am being offered the Cayo at. That being said, I know that I am just going to replace the wheels and the component group, so I am kind of just paying that great price for a year old frameset and that kind of equalizes things a bit. And if I am going to do all of that, why not just bite the bullet and go with the bike I really want, which is the Focus Izalco Max Disc DA Di2 that is ready to ride as-is stock?  The same shop sells all three bikes, so I think I am going to try to see when they can get me the Izalco Max or the Addict frame and go from there. If it is going to be 4-6 months, I wil just go with the Cayo. One thing I did decide is that I like the Aelous 5 Disc wheels the best and the Fulcrum Quattro Carbon Disc will be a backup if finances get too tight. 

SCOTT Sports - SCOTT Addict 20 disc (HMF) mech/Di2 Frame Set

Focus - Bikes: 2015: CAYO 4.0 DISC

Focus - Bikes: 2016: IZALCO MAX DISC RED (the 2017 is Di2, but looks a lot like the 2016 Red)


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Unless you are a serious weight weenie, there is no real benefit to DA Di2 over Ultegra Di2. And you get better gear ranges with the Ultegra GS derailleur.

If you were that serious about weight you'd probably want mechanical DA anyway.

Also, dont be too quick to jump on Di2. You'll probably want the new battery and wireless units (for the Bluetooth capability) and their availability is sketchy right now.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Migen21 said:


> Unless you are a serious weight weenie, there is no real benefit to DA Di2 over Ultegra Di2. And you get better gear ranges with the Ultegra GS derailleur.
> 
> If you were that serious about weight you'd probably want mechanical DA anyway.
> 
> Also, dont be too quick to jump on Di2. You'll probably want the new battery and wireless units (for the Bluetooth capability) and their availability is sketchy right now.


Thank you for your thoughts. I definitely don't feel like I have to have DA Di2 and given that I am committed to disc brakes on this bike and interested in electronic shifting, I am no pure weight weenie. I would like to build a bike that is 16 or so pounds, but beyond that it's not the focus. I am also fine with the hydraulic versions of DA Di2 9070 or Ultegra Di2 6870. If they had Sram Force eTap disc, I would be looking at that too. I realize I don't have the budget to get the best of everything, so the new wireless Shimano groups are probably out of reach for now and eTap may be the same as much as I hate to say it. I have tested Di2 groups multiple times, however, and I dig them and have no qualms about going with them. 

The more I think about things, the more I keep leaning toward just going with the Cayo Disc and enjoying riding it while I upgrade wheels and components. It will allow me to sit back and see how all of this plays out and wait for a deal on an electronic group and some Aelous 5 Disc wheels. Once I upgrade, I then have backup wheels and components to keep or sell.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Another thing to remember, with Di2, you can mix and match most of the newer components. So go with the DA shifters if you like those better, but stick to Ultegra derailleurs for cost savings and gear flexibility. I did this on my last Di2 build. 

My next Di2 build is going to be a gravel bike. It will have the new battery and bluetooth wireless unit, DA 9070 shifters, Ultegra 6870 front derailleuir and XT M8050 rear derailleur with a 11-40 XT cassette.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> I think I might be with ya, I priced UDi2 and DA Di2 sets today actually and they are significantly more affordable, plus, like you pointed out, you don't have to worry about delivery dates, etc. A guy at the shop said some Asian shipping company has collapsed and that might complicate delivery times on some things again. I am not interested in being caught up in that jazz, but I may have to deal with it.
> 
> I am pretty much down to these three (one complete bike that is a serious deal, one frameset that is still a good value, and my dream bike). I think I like the Addict a bit more than the Cayo, but it is hard to pass on the price I am being offered the Cayo at. That being said, I know that I am just going to replace the wheels and the component group, so I am kind of just paying that great price for a year old frameset and that kind of equalizes things a bit. And if I am going to do all of that, why not just bite the bullet and go with the bike I really want, which is the Focus Izalco Max Disc DA Di2 that is ready to ride as-is stock?  The same shop sells all three bikes, so I think I am going to try to see when they can get me the Izalco Max or the Addict frame and go from there. If it is going to be 4-6 months, I wil just go with the Cayo. One thing I did decide is that I like the Aelous 5 Disc wheels the best and the Fulcrum Quattro Carbon Disc will be a backup if finances get too tight.
> 
> ...



Get the bike you want, next year you won't even remember the money 

Another option is get the Izalco Max with the mech Red and then upgrade to the eTap when it comes out. It's my understanding that the hydro eTap comes without the cranks and cassette


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Good stuff from both of you, thanks. As of today, it sounds like the Addict and possibly the Izalco Max may not be here until sometime between November and January. I have talked to three different shops (two local and one big online retailer) and they have all said the same thing.  Last night I accepted that one of those two is really the bike I want and it's probably the Addict since it is very similar to the Izalco Max, just in a more affordable package. The only remaining question is can I wait that long for it??? I guess I could use the time to get upgraded wheels and components together if I go that route. It's probably the move that makes the most sense given that it's only $600 more than the Cayo anyway. Thanks again. 

SCOTT Sports - SCOTT Addict 30 Disc Bike

Scott Addict Disc | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos

Oh and I did look into the Izalco Max mechanical versions from last year and the shop has one Red version for $5500 and I saw one DA Mech. version online for $3999. The Addict is like 30-40% cheaper without losing much ground weight or performance wise and it has internal cable routing, which I prefer. I just wish it had a bit more color on the frame, but that's not a deal breaker. I can probably get the Addict frameset for the same price I was offered the Cayo at as well, but I think I might go for a complete bike this time around. Dare I say that I am starting feel like I've made a choice that actually checks all of my boxes...


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