# Spend the money on Carbon now, or "possibly" down the road.



## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

Hey,

I'm new to the site and saying hello (plus I have a question, does it help that I like pie?).

I've been riding 70-80 miles a week (off and on) since Jan of 2007 when I bought a Specialized Cross-Trail from my LBS. I started biking to and from work, along with some weight lifting, and I've lost 80 lbs.

This past weekend I rode in the MS Bike tour Louisiana and I'm addicted. My biking area is pretty flat and this was the first time I've had to climb hills and what not. The feeling of making it to the top of a long climb when you're already fatigued is amazing. Doing it on a cross-trail with a un-true wheel, not so amazing. 

Now, I know it's not the bike's fault, but still, I think I have found a new hobby (other than just commuting to work on bike). I want to buy a nice road bike to help me gain better distance, once that I will enjoy riding for long periods of time and one that can grow with me. 

I'm very old friends with the owners of a LBS that sells Specialized. I have been in and out of the shop all week, oogling over all the bikes. I test rode a Roubaix comp... what a mistake. I felt sooo smooth. I got to bring a tester home and ride it for a week. My problem is that it costs a fortune. I like the Specialized Allez as well. 

So, here is my question. Do I spend less money now and go with aluminum with a 105 kit or save longer and get the Roubaix with Sram Rival. I have also been training for my first triathlons. :thumbsup: 

I read the "10 tips thread" and one comment stuck in my mind. "if you're not 10% body fat don't worry about carbon vs aluminum". Well, I'm not 10% body fat, but I'm on the path to being in much better condition with time and I foresee myself participating in many more cycling events.

What would you all do?

Let me know!

Thanks,
Alex


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## FINEMNT (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm a newb, so maybe my opinion won't count vs others around here. Here's my thought: I would spend the money now and start riding! Start another "savings" for a carbon frame in the future and swap out the parts. Then again, if it's just a matter of a couple of months to afford the carbon setup, then get the carbon setup! I'm assuming this is not the case though. I was having a tough decision about Alu vs Carbon and came to the conclusion of buying Alu. For me, I need to "earn" high end stuff. I'm going with the Neuvation F100 Rival Setup, then once I think I've earned it, I will get the carbon frame I want and swap the parts. Just a thought.


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## singlespeedbuss (Aug 6, 2009)

Holy Sh*&T 80lbs. Thats great. Save awhile longer and get what you want. Do not spend the money twice as it ends up costing twice as much and takes twice as long to save back up the money you spent the first time. Whoever said the part about 10% body fat B.S. is an idiot. P.S. pie kicks ass, just not too much or you will get back your losses. You can get a Roubaix with Ultegra and possibly find one on ebay for a good price if trying to save some money.


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## Daren (Jul 25, 2008)

singlespeedbuss is right. I got the absolute cheapest road bike I could find when I started riding road in 2004. In less than months I had upgraded the drive train from Sora triple to Ultegra double and bought a new, but inexpensive, wheelset. A few months later I upgraded the frameset to a BIanchi 928 and another new wheelset. Then I upgraded the Ultegra to a SRAM Force/Red mix and yet another new wheelset, this time tubular. The good thing from all the upgrading is that I now have 2 complete bikes and only needed a frameset to complete my daughter's bike when she started riding.


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

Yeah, I like the feel of the SRAM double click over the Shimano. I felt like I was going to shift gears when I pulled back on the break lever... maybe it was just bad hand positioning. It would be a few months more of saving for the Roubaix Rival, but worth the wait I think. It's not like I don't have a bike. I can get them to true my wheel until then. I might get the Rival closer to whole sale value b\c the LBS owners are like family, but I still want to support the LBS.


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## electech (Aug 7, 2009)

Sounds like you have answered your own question! If you get anything less, you will probably always feel like you compromised and might not be happy with a cheaper bike even though it would be perfectly ok. If it is only a few more months, winter is coming on, so work on a cheaper price and go for what you want!!


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Personally I like the better bang for the buck with aluminum (roughly speaking the best aluminum bikes out there are priced about like a mediocre to poor carbon one). 

However you've done the test rides and seem to have a good grasp on the $ trade offs here so what I think is irrelevent. As with anything, I've found in the long run it's better to get what you really want the first time and if I was in your position (especially considering you already have a bike to ride) I'd hold out for it. You usually end up there in the long run anyway having spent a lot more to get there. You never know what might pop up while you're waiting/saving too.


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

I could always wait for the tester Roubaix to go on sale. It's purple...


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## jbrinkley0826 (Sep 17, 2009)

I just purchased a trek 2.1 a few weeks ago and love it. I thought about going with the carbon too, but my pocket book talked me out of it, maybe in a few years, but I'm thrilled with the bike I have now. Carbon is in my future, just down the road a year or two.


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## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

There's another aspect to riding that as you advance you'll have the opportunity deal with.

Crashing. Carbon isn't a very good crashing material. While it can take progressive loading very well (it flexs without breaking), sharp impacts can either cause catastrophic failure, or potentially worse, failure of the internal structure without external sign of failure.

While carbon frames may be seductive in their weight, feel, and appearance, their use by novice riders and those involved in most amateur racing is questionable.


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

icsloppl said:


> There's another aspect to riding that as you advance you'll have the opportunity deal with.
> 
> Crashing. Carbon isn't a very good crashing material. While it can take progressive loading very well (it flexs without breaking), sharp impacts can either cause catastrophic failure, or potentially worse, failure of the internal structure without external sign of failure.
> 
> While carbon frames may be seductive in their weight, feel, and appearance, their use by novice riders and those involved in most amateur racing is questionable.



good point. one of the reasons why I'm back and forth on the subject. :mad2:


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## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

i'd get the aluminum, with the best components, even save up for them as if you were buying the carbon, then save up for a couple years when you've gotten to the point that you feel like you are better than the allez, and need carbon to have a bike as good as you are. then you can swap those nice components onto a carbon frame.


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

kmunny19 said:


> i'd get the aluminum, with the best components, even save up for them as if you were buying the carbon, then save up for a couple years when you've gotten to the point that you feel like you are better than the allez, and need carbon to have a bike as good as you are. then you can swap those nice components onto a carbon frame.


Good point, I like this bike as well: http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=45852&eid=4951&menuItemId=9257

Thing is, I love the SRAM rival components, but mainly the shifters... 

I'm also new, how are the wheels on that bike, and the model above it, the Secteur Comp Compact.

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=45851&eid=4951&menuItemId=9257


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## Ibashii (Oct 23, 2002)

I vote alu. You'll get used to the shifters in a hurry...I assume the alu you're looking at has a carbon fork and maybe a carbon-wrapped seatpost? They tend to balance out the rougher ride of an alu frame and, IMO, make it similar in ride quality to a lower-end CF frame.

I'm in disagreement with icsloppl (icsloppl?? I think that deserves an explanation) though; I don't think you need to factor crash resistance into your choice, for several reasons:

1) modern CF frames are very durable and reports of unforeseen catastrophic failures are largely exaggerated,

2) alu also fails catastrophically and not gradually,

3) almost all decent alu bikes have at the very least a CF fork and possibly a CF seatpost, stem, bars or even chainstays, all load-bearing parts: if you don't believe in the safety of the material, why have any of it on your bike?

4) there is no such thing as a crash-proof bike, and no such thing as a bike that is incapable of sustaining hidden damage that can come back to haunt you at the worst possible time. Crashing is a sucky reality of a great sport/hobby, but it sucks equally on all bikes. As far as racing goes, I agree that it's dumb to race a 5k bike of any type in low-end, crash-infested races, but why is it questionable to race a low-end CF bike? They're light, comfy and relatively cheap to replace.

If this is a primary concern, you have another choice: steel. However good steel, still a great material choice, is a bit spendy.


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

I suppose it's not a huge factor.

I wish I knew more about wheels and other parts (as far as quality). 

I like the Specialized Secteur Comp. My friend says, "well if you are going to spend 1500, why not spend a little more and get the lowest level Roubaix". Are the components and wheels better quality on the high-end Secteur or the Low-end Roubaix. Both have Shimano 105 for the most part, so I don't know what the differences are, other than Secteur is Alum and Roubaix is CF.

*Here's the $1650 Alum Secteur*
FRAME
Specialized Secteur E5 aluminum, double-butted, compact design, integrated headset
REAR SHOCK
FORK
Secteur carbon, alloy crown and steerer, rack eyelets w/ Zertz inserts
HEADSET
Cage bearings integrated HS. w/ 20mm of spacers w/ top cap
STEM
Specialized Comp-Set, 3D forged alloy, 4-position adjustable, 4-bolt 31.8mm clamp
HANDLEBARS
Specialized Comp Ergo, 6061 alloy
TAPE
Specialized S-Wrap, cork ribbon w/ 2.5 gel pads
FRONT BRAKE
Tektro cold-forged, dual pivot brake w/ cartridge pads
REAR BRAKE
Tektro cold-forged, dual pivot brake w/ cartridge pads
BRAKE LEVERS
Shimano 105 STI, flight deck compatible
FRONT DERAILLEUR
Shimano 105
REAR DERAILLEUR
Shimano 105
SHIFT LEVERS
Shimano 105 STI, flight deck compatible
CASSETTE
Shimano 105, 10-speed, 12-27t
CHAIN
KMC X10 CP
CRANKSET
Shimano FC-R600
CHAINRINGS
50 x 34T
BOTTOM BRACKET
With Crankset
PEDALS
Silver cage/black body, w/ black toe clips and strap
FRONT WHEEL
REAR WHEEL
RIMS
Mavic CXP-22 S, aluminum triple-wall, sleeve joint, CNC machined sidewalls, w/ eyelets
FRONT HUB
Forged alloy, sealed, 28h for J bend round spokes
REAR HUB
Forged alloy, sealed, 32h, for J bend round spokes
SPOKES
Stainless 14g
FRONT TIRE
Specialized All Condition Pro II, 700x25c, aramid bead, 120TPI, w/ Flak Jacket protection
REAR TIRE
Specialized All Condition Pro II, 700x25c, aramid bead, 120TPI, w/ Flak Jacket protection
INNER TUBES
Standard presta valve
SADDLE
Body Geometry Avatar Gel w/ hollow Cr-Mo rails
SEATPOST
Specialized Comp, FACT carbon w/ Zertz insert, aluminum head, two-bolt clamp, 27.2mm
SEAT BINDER
Alloy, 31.8mm

*Cheapest CF Roubaix $1900*
FRAME
Specialized Roubaix FACT 6r carbon, triple monocoque construction, compact race design w/ Zertz inserts
REAR SHOCK
FORK
Roubaix full carbon monocoque, w/ Zertz inserts
HEADSET
Aheadset 1 1/8" w/ top cap, 40mm of spacers
STEM
Specialized Comp-Set, 3D forged alloy, 4-position adjustable, 4-bolt 31.8mm clamp
HANDLEBARS
Specialized Comp Ergo, 6061 alloy
TAPE
Specialized S-Wrap, cork ribbon w/ 2.5 gel pads
FRONT BRAKE
Tektro cold-forged, dual pivot brake w/ cartridge pads
REAR BRAKE
Tektro cold-forged, dual pivot brake w/ cartridge pads
BRAKE LEVERS
Shimano 105 STI, flight deck compatible
FRONT DERAILLEUR
Shimano 105
REAR DERAILLEUR
Shimano 105
SHIFT LEVERS
Shimano 105 STI, flight deck compatible
CASSETTE
Shimano 105, 10-speed, 12-27t
CHAIN
KMC DX10 SC
CRANKSET
Elita 2.2 Double 50x34T Black Color Rings
CHAINRINGS
50 x 34T
BOTTOM BRACKET
With Crankset
PEDALS
Silver cage/black body, w/ black toe clips and strap
FRONT WHEEL
REAR WHEEL
RIMS
Mavic CXP-22 N, aluminum triple-wall, sleeve joint, CNC machined sidewalls
FRONT HUB
Forged alloy, sealed, 32 hole, for J bend round spokes
REAR HUB
Forged alloy, sealed, cassette, QR, 32h
SPOKES
Stainless 14g
FRONT TIRE
Specialized Roubaix Pro II, 700x23c, aramid bead, 120TPI, w/ Flak Jacket protection
REAR TIRE
Specialized Roubaix Pro II, 700x23c, aramid bead, 120TPI, w/ Flak Jacket protection
INNER TUBES
Standard presta valve
SADDLE
Body Geometry Avatar Gel w/ hollow Cr-Mo rails
SEATPOST
Carbon wrapped, two-bolt clamp, 27.2mm
SEAT BINDER
Forged alloy, 32.6mm


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

As ibashii stated, carbon failure is very exaggerated. My Bianchi is over 10k miles on it and has been crashed in a race, knocked over, etc. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that carbon failure in a crash isn't the worst thing in the world. The frame distributes the force of impact where steel will make you absorb more of the crash.


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## singlespeedbuss (Aug 6, 2009)

I do not race nor have I ever raced bikes. I spent more than what I needed but I purchased what I wanted not what other people tried to talk me into. My LBS tried to steer me into spending a little less and I ended up having a bike built. My only regret is not riding the Roubaix. I ended up with a Tarmac SL2 I did not need that but thats what I wanted. If you crash alot keep riding your old bikes. If you have no problems riding your bikes do not sweat CF. Get exactly what you want the first time and you will save money in the long run. I have seen some of my friends go the cheap route and upgrade later. The money they spent twice would have paid for the high end stuff and still had money left for other things. Save, Buy, Enjoy. you only live once!


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## RUV (Aug 13, 2009)

I say go with the bike that you enjoy riding the most. If that's the Roubaix, then save up for it b/c like others have said, getting 2 bikes may be more expensive in the long run. IMO, you've already "earned" it... 80# wt loss is awesome! You want to be on a bike that will make you smile and want to ride all the time... not one that will leave you wondering about the other bike you could've gotten.

On the other hand, a Cannondale CAAD9-4 is alu with Rival and ~$1800 and damn light and a fine fine ride... just sayin'... 

Congrats again on the weight loss and finishing the MS ride.


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## wobblyRider (May 10, 2009)

cooperman985 said:


> Hey,
> I'm very old friends with the owners of a LBS that sells Specialized. I have been in and out of the shop all week, oogling over all the bikes. I test rode a Roubaix comp... what a mistake. I felt sooo smooth. I got to bring a tester home and ride it for a week. My problem is that it costs a fortune. I like the Specialized Allez as well.
> 
> So, here is my question. Do I spend less money now and go with aluminum with a 105 kit or save longer and get the Roubaix with Sram Rival. I have also been training for my first triathlons. :thumbsup:
> ...


Hi Alex,

I think either bike will work for you. It's just a matter of how much you are willing to spend. Can you borrow an allez for a weekend to compare?

I'm riding the allez sport. Have about 1000 miles on it and love it. Have never ridden a carbon frame bike though. I'm about 200 lbs and told my wife I want a tarmac when I can maintain 185 lbs. The only time I've hit that weight was the morning before my colonoscopy and probably won't see that weight again until the next one:lol: 

I'm sure you will get plenty of help here. I always do.

Enjoy!


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## John Nelson (Mar 10, 2006)

I bought an aluminum Allez with the idea that it would be my entry bike and I'd upgrade in a year or two. Four years and 30,000 miles later, I'm still riding the hell out of that aluminum bike. I may never get around to getting that carbon bike.


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## singlespeedbuss (Aug 6, 2009)

FINEMNT said:


> I'm a newb, so maybe my opinion won't count vs others around here. Here's my thought: I would spend the money now and start riding! Start another "savings" for a carbon frame in the future and swap out the parts. Then again, if it's just a matter of a couple of months to afford the carbon setup, then get the carbon setup! I'm assuming this is not the case though. I was having a tough decision about Alu vs Carbon and came to the conclusion of buying Alu. For me, I need to "earn" high end stuff. I'm going with the Neuvation F100 Rival Setup, then once I think I've earned it, I will get the carbon frame I want and swap the parts. Just a thought.


 I think Cooperman has earned Carbon Fiber, he rides enough every week and hell, he lost 80 lbs.


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## lionheartdds (Mar 24, 2007)

my two pennies:
Sounds like you already know what you want. Don't putz around too much if you choose not to spend on a carbon bike. If you really can't spend for the carbon frame just now, get the lower end frame, but deck it out with the drive train you will ultimately want. When you're ready to move up to carbon, just buy the frame and fork and transfer everything else over. Otherwise, just get the bike you really want if it isn't going put you in a tight spot financially. Took me a year to buy the parts I needed to assemble my '06 Madone SSLx (Project One frame and fork-Discover Team black/blue flames paint scheme, full Dura Ace drive train, Bontrager Race XXX bars and stem, seat post, Race Lite Pro saddle, Mavic Ksyrium SL wheelset with ceramic upgrades, ceramic bottom bracket, and ceramic rear derailleur pulleys, 15lbs even ), but in the end, I got my dream bike. Meanwhile, rode on my aluminum Leader 736R road bike. Once you've ridden carbon, it's hard going to anything else. Good luck.:idea:


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Rule #1, don't race what you can't replace, so IMO if you're getting into tri's go with the Allez (or similar). It's not because CF is going to self destruct if you look at it wrong, it's because when it does break, it cracks, whereas alu and steel (in most instances) bend. And unless the bend is fairly serious, many times it's repairable. CF is to a point, but it's not cheap.

Beyond that, alu bikes are stiff and cheap, which might make them less desirable for long days in the saddle over broken pavement, but it's near ideal for racing and isn't painful for those shorter (training) rides, especially if you drop the tires pressures a tad. 

OTOH, if you said tri's were very occasional or just a possibility in the future, I'd say check out the base Roubaix. It lists for about $500 less than the Comp and (all else being equal) will better most alu bikes in ride quality.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

spade2you said:


> As ibashii stated, carbon failure is very exaggerated. My Bianchi is over 10k miles on it and has been crashed in a race, knocked over, etc.
> 
> *Another thing to keep in mind is that carbon failure in a crash isn't the worst thing in the world. The frame distributes the force of impact where steel will make you absorb more of the crash*.


I feel very confident in stating that you have _no_ evidence of this.


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

cooperman985 said:


> Hey,
> 
> I'm new to the site and saying hello (plus I have a question, does it help that I like pie?).
> 
> ...


It's a function of how much do you want to spend. You can buy a VERY good carbon road bike for $1800-$2500 or you can spend over five grand also OR you can get a new Carbon frame and fork on Ebay (see ebay carbon frame thread; I own one also) for $400 and build it up yourself.
You want a great fit, a good saddle, decent wheels (not less than Mavik Aksium or equivalent), a good frame (alum with nice smooth welds, alum/carbon combo or full carbon) and a good group (not any less than 105 or equivalent)
IMHO if spend less than $1,200 you're gonna want to upgrade in less than 1 year


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

If I had of known what I know now I wouldn't have got a carbon first or even at all :idea: 
YMMV.

then again if I hadnt have got a non carbon later I wouldnt have known 'the difference' :wink5:


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## BlueGrassBlazer (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm in a similar quandry. I've been all over the forum looking for a new bike and I wonder what it might cost to simply upgrade mine. I have an old Cannondale R500 Triple. It's all aluminum and beats the crap out of me. I have some Mavic CXP10s which I've read are pretty stiff too. 
So, I was thinking of upgrading. The cassette is a 7 speed (RSX) so to go to a 9 or 10 speed, (105 Group would be fine) I'd have to swap out all the components, I'd like to add a carbon fork and seat stay. I'd want to upgrade the rims too. 
By the time I get done, I've replaced everything but the frame. I've been looking around and it seems it's cheaper to just get a new bike. 
For those who have done something like this, what's a ballpark figure I'm looking at?

thanks all.


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

Oh well, I just need to stop focusing on "which" bike to get atm, but just stay on track with my saving $$$. The first roubaix has shimano and isn't a huuuge price jump from the better Secteurs, so if I had to choose now it would be the Roubaix Compact (elite if I have more money by then), but... time will tell. 

Thanks for all of the input.

I need to fix my rear wheel and get my ass back on the seat before I get cold.


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## Slim Chance (Feb 8, 2005)

In a word, Yes. Why would you want to dress up a frame which you say “beats the crap out of me”? Buying a new and up-to-date frame is the most practical and economical way to go.



BlueGrassBlazer said:


> *I've been looking around and it seems it's cheaper to just get a new bike.*
> .


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## BlueGrassBlazer (Aug 4, 2009)

Slim Chance said:


> In a word, Yes. Why would you want to dress up a frame which you say “beats the crap out of me”? Buying a new and up-to-date frame is the most practical and economical way to go.


I expect aluminum to ride a little harshly but my setup seems to add to the issue. By changing the wheels, adding a carbon fork and seat post I could soften the ride.The thing is that after I've done that...at some point I'm likely to need to change out the front/rear derailleurs and shifter/brakes. 
I read all the time in the forums how guys swap things out and they make it sound as if it's economical. If doing all these things will cost me $1000 or more, I might as well invest in a new bike. If it's going to cost $500 or thereabouts, I can consider it. 

thanks.


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## lionheartdds (Mar 24, 2007)

BlueGrassBlazer said:


> I expect aluminum to ride a little harshly but my setup seems to add to the issue. By changing the wheels, adding a carbon fork and seat post I could soften the ride.The thing is that after I've done that...at some point I'm likely to need to change out the front/rear derailleurs and shifter/brakes.
> I read all the time in the forums how guys swap things out and they make it sound as if it's economical. If doing all these things will cost me $1000 or more, I might as well invest in a new bike. If it's going to cost $500 or thereabouts, I can consider it.
> 
> thanks.


The Slice Prodigy fork that comes with your bike should be carbon. It does have an aluminum steerer, but the fork itself should be carbon. Changing the fork to a carbon fork with carbon steerer may help, but i doubt it. My Leader 736R has an I802 carbon fork with carbon steerer, and my arms and hands still went numb after 20 minutes from the vibration, even with a carbon handlebar. What helped me with that bike was switching out to a carbon stem and Bontrager buzz kill dampeners, coupled with Aztec antivibration handlebar pads, but it's still a much harsher ride than a full carbon frame. I didn't notice much difference switching to a carbon seat post, so I think aluminum just rides harsh no matter what. It might be different with an aluminum bike with carbon forks, and carbon seatstays, but I wouldn't know-never tried one of those yet.


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## Slim Chance (Feb 8, 2005)

The only way swapping parts will be more economical is if you patiently purchased them at very good prices from ebay or similar sites. If you plan is to purchase them from an lbs or even online retailers, it‘s going to be cheaper to by a bike from an lbs. Carbon seat post is not going to soften the ride, just your wallet. If you really like your frame, buy a bikesdirect bike and transfer the parts from it to your frame and sell what’s left over.




BlueGrassBlazer said:


> I expect aluminum to ride a little harshly but my setup seems to add to the issue. By changing the wheels, adding a carbon fork and seat post I could soften the ride.The thing is that after I've done that...at some point I'm likely to need to change out the front/rear derailleurs and shifter/brakes.
> I read all the time in the forums how guys swap things out and they make it sound as if it's economical. If doing all these things will cost me $1000 or more, I might as well invest in a new bike. If it's going to cost $500 or thereabouts, I can consider it.
> 
> thanks.


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

Frame material is overrated. Get a bike that fits. Then, if you aren't comfortable with the ride, put bigger tires on it. 25mm or even 28mm if they will fit. Run said tires at lower pressure. Ride your bike.


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## futurballa (Sep 2, 2009)

I recently got the secteur elite compact and am very happy with the ride. I'm not coming from a carbon bike though, so I might be unspoiled. It does come with 25 mm tires.


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## newmexrb1 (Aug 16, 2009)

robpar said:


> It's a function of how much do you want to spend. You can buy a VERY good carbon road bike for $1800-$2500 or you can spend over five grand also OR you can get a new Carbon frame and fork on Ebay (see ebay carbon frame thread; I own one also) for $400 and build it up yourself.
> You want a great fit, a good saddle, decent wheels (not less than Mavik Aksium or equivalent), a good frame (alum with nice smooth welds, alum/carbon combo or full carbon) and a good group (not any less than 105 or equivalent)
> IMHO if spend less than $1,200 you're gonna want to upgrade in less than 1 year


I like this approach FWIW--i have a decent lugged steelie that I love the ride of and I'm dressing up in 2-3 year old near SOTA components bought on ebay. When I'm really happy with the component mix (not big on decals), I'm gonna pick up one of those 400 buck CF ebay frames and transfer. The pros IMHO of such an approach is you learn tons about how the individual components work, and how to install/service them. You can assemble a good tool kit on the way. Sure it would be nice to have an SRAM red group with the dream frame under the xmas tree..... But I'd still be ignorant of the subtle details that make a component a functional work of art. Hell if I weren't so broke, I'd probably just have plunked 5K on whatever caught my fancy. Oh,hail the virtues of poverty


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> Rule #1, don't race what you can't replace, so IMO if you're getting into tri's go with the Allez (or similar).


wot? haha, u don't expect to crash in TTs, u can't even draft in a TT or tri let alone push someone outta the way... 

JME, the carbon 105 bike seems way too expensive @ almost 2k... first thing is to ride them all and decide then... don't be wooed by material its meaningless..

I would also suggest try riding a 105 caad9, they cost what $1300?

I would personally get into a decent bike and ride that - as you haven't developed as a road cyclist and you really dont at this stage know what you want in a road bike. As you get stronger you will have a better idea, so based on the prices you listed, i would buy the ride i can get along with with a decent 105 spec and sell it down the road when you know what you really want.

cliff notes: frame material isn't a good way to make the choice. JMO buy cheaper one now, save later for uber bike.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

wankski said:


> wot? haha, *u don't expect to crash *in TTs, u can't even draft in a TT or tri let alone push someone outta the way...


No one _expects _to crash, they just do sometimes. You may not realize this, but TT's and tri's are competitive/ racing environments. As such, riders are more inclined to push harder than they would otherwise, thus setting the stage for... _crashes_! And BTW, cyclists crash into lots of things other than each other.


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> No one _expects _to crash, they just do sometimes. You may not realize this, but TT's and tri's are competitive/ racing environments. As such, riders are more inclined to push harder than they would otherwise, thus setting the stage for... _crashes_! And BTW, cyclists crash into lots of things other than each other.



Haha this is true.

Anyways, commuted to work this morning @ 6am. Was dark out. My old time was 1 hour 5 minutes. Shaved it to 48min. Same bike, just new outlook. The MS tour introduced me to hills. My commute to work is 15 miles and 99% flats.

I'm looking more and more at buying the Secteur Elite comp, or the Comp (yes i'd pay another $200 for the paint colors.. pathetic I know). If I'm going to get carbon I'd like to get the best I can get, so I'll wait until I can afford the best. I'm not at my goal weight yet either, so I'll save the carbon for when I'm fitter and faster. :thumbsup: I started at 350lbs. I'm still at 268 (I hold my weight well  ). 

-Have a nice day!


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## SkiRacer55 (Apr 29, 2005)

*There's at least one other way to look at it...*



cooperman985 said:


> Hey,
> 
> I'm new to the site and saying hello (plus I have a question, does it help that I like pie?).
> 
> ...


...which is that if you're really getting hooked on being a roadie, all you're talking about now is your next bike, not the only bike you'll ever buy. Some additional thoughts:

- Realize that "the bike" is not the only $$$ you are going to have to spend. You need pedals, a helmet, gloves, bibshorts, jerseys, and all that other good stuff. Not to mention pumps, spare tubes, a seat bag with universal fix it tools, clothes for cold weather riding, and so forth. You don't necessarily have to buy all that stuff when you pull the trigger on your upcoming bike purchase, but the need for that stuff won't go away, and it will become more acute the more miles you put on.

- I'm not a big fan of doing upgrades. There's first of all the effect that says "Wow...I bought a decent, reasonably priced alu frame, spent a bunch of $$$$ upgrading it...and now I want a better frame, probably carbon." Upgrades aren't necessarily cheap. A decent lighter set of wheels, for example, is going to set you back at least $400 to $500. You do that, then you next discover that you really want to go from a Sora RD to something better...suddenly you start looking at your FD askance, and so forth. Remember also that unless you can do your own wrenching, an upgrade often involves parts and labor. 

- Instead, if you want to keep the $$$$ down now, especially since winter is coming, buy the Specialized Allez and when it becomes your winter or beater bike, get a new, probably carbon bike spec'ed out the way you want. BTW, if this guy who owns the LBS is your good buddy, I hope he's at least giving you some discount. 

- Do some more research before you pull any triggers. For example, I have always ridden Shimano, because for me it's been durable, functions well, and doesn't need a whole lot of care and feeding. I've never ridden SRAM, but I have heard that some people think it ain't as durable, and I hear stories that adjustment, especially of the FD, is tricky and has to be redone constantly. I have Shimano Ultegra SL on two of my roadies, and IMHO, it's the best bang for the buck out there. Almost as light as Dura Ace, and works really well. 

Another research item is "What kind of ride do I want?" As in, there aren't just road bikes, there are crit bikes, plush bikes on the other end, and all manner of stuff in between. The Specialized Roubaix, for example, is in the plush bike category. Note that this doesn't mean it isn't a responsive bike. All the guys on Specialized were essentially using the Tarmac, but the guys who were single day event guys, like Tom Boonen, wanted something a little different, especially for nasty stuff like the cobbles of Roubaix. Ergo, they took a race bike and gentled it out a little bit...still a pretty responsive bike, however.

One of the other hot bikes in the plush bike category is the Cervelo RS. If you look at reviews and opinions, you'll kind of see a pattern that says that they're both plush, but the Roubaix feels like a farm tractor compared to the RS, which is really an R3 with just a little more comfort dialed in. Dunno, I haven't ridden either, I'm just saying. 

- This'll be controversial, but I like the feel of CF versus alu. A few years ago, there were some high end alu bikes, where they cost a little more to make the frame not only light but responsive. Alu has a reputation for being stiff but bone jarring. I'm not even sure there are any high end alu bikes any more. I dunno from low end CF, either, the stuff could be just plain vanilla, and no more responsive than low end alu. I'll just quickly detail my experience. 

I have two Titus Oseos, built up identically with Ultegra SL and equivalent goodies. I got the frames for $1400, they list for $2600. Incredibly light frame, and because you can do all kinds of cool things with CF with tube diameters, thicknesses, shapes, and so forth, it has an incredible combination of BB stiffness and vertical compliance. Very comfortable all day in the saddle bike, but incredibly responsive when I hammer the pedals. Goes up hills and sprints unbelievable well, just has a very responsive feel over all. 

I just got, from Randall Scott Cycles in Boulder, a Tommaso Mondial alu bike for my winter bike. Very nice bike, has Ultegra throughout, very smooth and easy to ride, reasonably light, and I just spent less than $1000 on the whole bike. A really super nice bike, but IMHO, just not as lively and responsive as my Titus frames. The Tommaso will climb and sprint okay, but I have to really kick it hard to get it started, and the steering just doesn't feel as precise as the Titus. I dunno, your mileage may vary, this is just one more data point..


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

SkiRacer55 said:


> ...which is that if you're really getting hooked on being a roadie, all you're talking about now is your next bike, not the only bike you'll ever buy. Some additional thoughts:
> 
> - Realize that "the bike" is not the only $$$ you are going to have to spend. You need pedals, a helmet, gloves, bibshorts, jerseys, and all that other good stuff. Not to mention pumps, spare tubes, a seat bag with universal fix it tools, clothes for cold weather riding, and so forth. You don't necessarily have to buy all that stuff when you pull the trigger on your upcoming bike purchase, but the need for that stuff won't go away, and it will become more acute the more miles you put on.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all the points. 

When I borrowed the shop roubaix with SRAM I put over 100 miles on it. I love the feel of the frame, which is why I was looking at the Secteur, since it has identical geometry. Like I've said before, If I am spending close to 1400 on a Secteur, why not spend a few more bills and get the Roubaix Elite, which comes with shimano 105. 

As far as components... I have picked up a lot of things from riding over the last 2 years. I have a helmet, bike bag, bike pump, winter clothes, a lot of bike shorts. I have 2 jerseys from when I started but they are very loose on me now. 

I also don't just "know" the LBS people, I have been best friends with the shop owners son for 12 years. I get free tune ups and repair.

All of that being said... that's why I'm not apposed to spending a little more to get the Roubaix. 

Still, I'm trying to not think about that at the moment. I'm going to ride my cross-trail through winter and see what I have saved by spring time. Plus, I live in Louisiana, I can ride any time of the year. :thumbsup:

Edit: (later thoughts)- Maybe I'm still looking too high ($$ wise) for my road bike. I've been looking at the $1400 Secteur... maybe I could do just as well with the $900 Allez/Secteur. As in, do I really need 105 over tiagra/sora? Do Zerts Inserts really help in the Aluminum frame? 

I don't like to upgrade parts either, so I either want a decent alum road bike, or spend a load up front and get a nasty carbon bike. I just don't want to spend 1400-1600 and say a paycheck later that I could have gotten the Roubaix.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cooperman985 said:


> Thanks for all the points.
> 
> When I borrowed the shop roubaix with SRAM I put over 100 miles on it. I love the feel of the frame, which is why I was looking at the Secteur, since it has identical geometry. Like I've said before, If I am spending close to 1400 on a Secteur, why not spend a few more bills and get the Roubaix Elite, which comes with shimano 105.
> 
> ...


Good thoughts, IMO. Many times it's human nature to aspire to 'better', before we've given the lower end bikes/ components a chance. In reality, considering the miles most riders log, many would do fine with Sora or Tiagra groups. 

The advantage with Tiagra shifters is that they employ the same inner/ outer levers as the 105 (and up) groups, while Sora uses a thumb shifter to shift to the next smaller cog. It functions fine, but if you're in the drops it's difficult to operate. You could always run a Sora equipped bike for awhile and eventually upgrade to Tiagra shifters. New they're around $200 and you can find good/ used for less. And don't be afraid to upgrade. In a way it's like having the bike grow with you and your abilities, and (if you wrench yourself) it's fun! 

Regarding the Allez versus the Secteur. If you liked the position and handling of the Roubaix, I'd give the Secteur the inside edge. The Allez is a fine bike, but (all else being equal) it positions the rider in a slightly more aggressive position.


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## BlueGrassBlazer (Aug 4, 2009)

lionheartdds said:


> The Slice Prodigy fork that comes with your bike should be carbon. It does have an aluminum steerer, but the fork itself should be carbon. Changing the fork to a carbon fork with carbon steerer may help, but i doubt it. My Leader 736R has an I802 carbon fork with carbon steerer, and my arms and hands still went numb after 20 minutes from the vibration, even with a carbon handlebar. What helped me with that bike was switching out to a carbon stem and Bontrager buzz kill dampeners, coupled with Aztec antivibration handlebar pads, but it's still a much harsher ride than a full carbon frame. I didn't notice much difference switching to a carbon seat post, so I think aluminum just rides harsh no matter what. It might be different with an aluminum bike with carbon forks, and carbon seatstays, but I wouldn't know-never tried one of those yet.


It's a '97...the year before the carbon forks were put on the R500's so it's aluminum too.
As much as I really, really, really want a new bike I have too many bills on the horizon. After reading around I've decided to put 25c tires on it and swap out the stem. I've read that the biggest bang for the buck regarding comfort is a tire change...and that stem is a killer....
The season is winding down here and I'm going to put the bike up on the trainer in another month or so. Next year I'll check on a carbon seat post and see how that goes. I might also be in a better position to buy a new bike by next summer. 

Here's the bikePedia link and photo. 
http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/BikeSpecs.aspx?Year=1997&Brand=Cannondale&Model=R500T&Type=bike

It's been a good bike but it's obvious in the photo that it's not geared towards comfort.


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## SkiRacer55 (Apr 29, 2005)

*All true...*



cooperman985 said:


> Thanks for all the points.
> 
> When I borrowed the shop roubaix with SRAM I put over 100 miles on it. I love the feel of the frame, which is why I was looking at the Secteur, since it has identical geometry. Like I've said before, If I am spending close to 1400 on a Secteur, why not spend a few more bills and get the Roubaix Elite, which comes with shimano 105.
> 
> ...


...consider the following:

- I personally think you either want to spend around $1000 or around $2000. In between those two numbers, IMHO, you're getting a little more, but you're not really getting maximum bang for the buck. 

- Re components, I personally think that if you're going the Shimano route, Ultegra is the minimum opening bet. The lower stuff is okay, but it's definitely heavier, and, although you'll get arguments to the contrary, I think below Ultegra is maybe not as durable and doesn't function quite as smoothly. My winter bike last year was a LeMond Reno with Shimano Tiagra shifters and DRs, and it was okay, but definitely felt clunky compared to Ultegra. As I said, I just got a Tommaso Mondial from Randall Scott Cycles in Boulder for about $950 for a winter bike. Fairly light, decent Alex wheels with Continental Ultra Race tires, which surprised me, very solid and smooth riding alu frame and carbon fork...and Shimano Ultegra throughout. 

- You can do really well with used bikes if you know what you're looking for. If you have a good relationship with the shop you've been using, see if they have any demos they want to sell. This is the time of year when they're unloading them, and a used bike from a reputable shop is usually a pretty good bet.

- Don't wait until spring. If you have $1000, go find the best bike you can for that kind of $$$, and start riding it...you'll never regret it...


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## cooperman985 (Oct 7, 2009)

SkiRacer55 said:


> ...consider the following:
> 
> - I personally think you either want to spend around $1000 or around $2000. In between those two numbers, IMHO, you're getting a little more, but you're not really getting maximum bang for the buck.
> 
> ...


Okay so I spoke with the guys at my LBS, they could mark down the Secteur Comp (1650) with 105 to 1200-1300 range. I think that's what I'm going to aim for.


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## mustang1 (Feb 7, 2008)

In 2006 when I bought my Allez, the year after that I was looking at a Tarmac Comp. Back then it was £1300. I waited for the closeout and got a deal but then didn't go thru with it. So I waited another year for the close out.

A few points to note:
1. I still dont have a carbon bike.
2. I dont care as much any more, but wouldn't mind having a carbon bike in the stable.
3. The price of a Tarmac Comp has gone up from £1300 in 2008 to almost £1900 now. That's just crazy ass price rises. I dont think this is limited to Specialized though.


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## sf_loft (Oct 5, 2009)

What's the obsession with carbon bikes? If you're on a budget, I would much rather get a high-end aluminum/carbon bike and spend my upgrade money on a new wheelset. Is it the stiffness, weight, or damping? Getting a bike just because it's carbon doesn't mean that it will be a good bike. Low-end carbon frames weigh just as much as high-end aluminum and will provide similar stiffness. 

I own an 09 Gary Fisher Arch Pro aluminum that has carbon fork, seatstay, and chainstay. Fully stock it weighs 19.3 lbs and with a slightly used Ksyrium SL wheelset bought cheap from eBay, the bike is roughly 18 lbs. It MSRP's for $1870 but since it's end of year, I got it for $1449. Full 105 group. Look for 09 models on the floor and don't always look for the latest. They are usually the same bike with minor differences for a lot less money.


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## gcedillo (Jan 8, 2008)

I think that planning on a custom wheelset would be great.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

sf_loft said:


> *What's the obsession with carbon bikes?* If you're on a budget, I would much rather get a high-end aluminum/carbon bike and spend my upgrade money on a new wheelset. Is it the stiffness, weight, or damping? Getting a bike just because it's carbon doesn't mean that it will be a good bike. Low-end carbon frames weight just as much as high-end aluminum and will provide similar stiffness.
> 
> *I own an 09 **Gary Fisher Arch Pro* aluminum *that has carbon fork, seatstay, and chainstay. *Fully stock it weighs 19.3 lbs and with a slightly used Ksyrium SL wheelset bought cheap from eBay, the bike is roughly 18 lbs. It MSRP's for $1870 but since it's end of year, I got it for $1449. Full 105 group. Look for 09 models on the floor and don't always look for the latest. They are usually the same bike with minor differences for a lot less money.


Seems you've caught the bug.


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## sf_loft (Oct 5, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Seems you've caught the bug.


Slightly I guess. I really didn't have much of a choice since all aluminum bikes in this price range now have carbon forks and many are starting to fuse more in through either the seatstay or chainstay or both. I had a soft budget of $1200 and was simply looking for the biggest bang for the buck on end of year models. I've done my research between the LBS and internet and it came down to the Trek 2.3 / Fisher Arc Pro. Pretty much the same bike but I couldn't pass up the deal on the Fisher. Compared to the 2010 model which they raised to $2100, the difference is minimal and they actually started mixing and matching components to save cost instead of keeping the full 105 group. Component wise the 2009 is better, but the '10 has a slightly stiffer frame with the integrated BB that actually weighs more. At my light weight of 150lbs and riding style, I won't transfer enough power to flex many frames. I saw a video of someone explaining how these new high modules carbon fiber frames are really designed for people who weigh more than 170+ and really romps on their pedals enough to lose energy if the bike flexes. Of course there are other benefits to CF like damping and weight, but to really realize the difference between a good aluminum bike, you have to spend thousands more for a good CF frame. When I see CF frames for $400 on eBay or a full CF bike costing under $2000, I wonder if it is actually good or did they have to skimp out on quality & components to get the price that low. If I were to go CF, I'd go all the way and spend $7k on a bike and will ride my aluminum to death until I can truly say that I deserve an upgrade and that I'm at a level where CF + pricey components would actually improve my goals. I'm nowhere there yet!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

sf_loft said:


> Slightly I guess. I really didn't have much of a choice since all aluminum bikes in this price range now have carbon forks and many are starting to fuse more in through either the seatstay or chainstay or both. I had a soft budget of $1200 and was simply looking for the biggest bang for the buck on end of year models. I've done my research between the LBS and internet and it came down to the Trek 2.3 / Fisher Arc Pro. Pretty much the same bike but I couldn't pass up the deal on the Fisher. Compared to the 2010 model which they raised to $2100, the difference is minimal and they actually started mixing and matching components to save cost instead of keeping the full 105 group. Component wise the 2009 is better, but the '10 has a slightly stiffer frame with the integrated BB that actually weighs more. At my light weight of 150lbs and riding style, I won't transfer enough power to flex many frames. I saw a video of someone explaining how these new high modules carbon fiber frames are really designed for people who weigh more than 170+ and really romps on their pedals enough to lose energy if the bike flexes. *Of course there are other benefits to CF like damping and weight, but to really realize the difference between a good aluminum bike, you have to spend thousands more for a good CF frame.* When I see CF frames for $400 on eBay or a full CF bike costing under $2000, I wonder if it is actually good or did they have to skimp out on quality & components to get the price that low. If I were to go CF, I'd go all the way and spend $7k on a bike and will ride my aluminum to death until I can truly say that I deserve an upgrade and that I'm at a level where CF + pricey components would actually improve my goals. I'm nowhere there yet!


Credibility-wise "I saw a video..." ranks right up there with "I read it on the internet", doesn't it?  

IME all frame materials have advantages and disadvantages, depending on use/ priorities. Aluminum's claim to fame has always been relatively high stiffness and low cost, making it ideal for racers and/ or budget minded riders. All else being equal, steel (which is often ignored) generally offers superior ride quality at a slight disadvantage in weight and cost, but fairly recent strides in technology have closed the weight gap. And many would say Ti is superior to it, albeit at a higher cost. CF, the relative newcomer, has seen advances made that allow lighter weight, higher stiffness along with better ride quality making it (IMO) superior to alu, but again, at a higher cost. 

The one thing to remember, though is that alu technology has pretty much pinnacled in recent years, so the cost of a 'higher end' frame is less, but that's a relative term. OTOH, CF technology keeps progressing, so a 2010 'low end' CF frame was some manufacturers flagship model a few short years ago, making a current $2,000 full CF bike a relative bargain - _to some_. 

The bottom line is to decide on use/ priorities, ride a few bikes of all materials and decide from there. They're all good in their own right, and you're right (paraphrasing) materials or components are seldom what holds a rider back from attaining their goals.


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## SkiRacer55 (Apr 29, 2005)

*That's a decent deal...*



cooperman985 said:


> Okay so I spoke with the guys at my LBS, they could mark down the Secteur Comp (1650) with 105 to 1200-1300 range. I think that's what I'm going to aim for.


...and a decent bike, from what I hear. I say go buy it and start putting in the miles...


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