# You vs. the Pros



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I know some folks on here have mixed feelings about Bicycling Magazine, but I think some of the stuff they put out is interesting from time to time, including this one (though, I believe pros travel faster on flat roads than is listed here, given what I've seen elsewhere).

Tour de France Riders vs. Regular Cyclists | Bicycling Magazine


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

All else equal and in still air, power required on the flat is dominated by air drag and goes as the cube of the speed. So if "you" go 18 and the pros 26, they're maintaining 3 times the power "you" are. Another way to look at it is if you go 18 it takes 37% more power to go 20.


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## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

It was an interesting article. However there are a number of things in it that are very misleading. A few examples:

1) Average speeds: they list the average speed for a rider riding alone versus a pro riding in the peloton. This is an apples and oranges comparison. Many recreational riders could maintain average speeds of 20-21 mph if not more if they were riding in a peloton and had shelter from the wind.

2) Calories consumed on a ride: this number is bogus and is misleadingly low. Their own calculator here indicates that on a 3 hour ride at 16-20mph I'm burning about 3500 calories.

3) On a 3 hour ride on a warm day I'm going through more than 2-3 bottles of fluid. And even if I'm on the low end of hydration on the bike I'll make up for it by consuming that fluid AFTER the ride.

4) Chain replacement: I replace mine every 2-3k miles, which usually means about 2-3x per year. But this is related to mileage. Pros ride more miles so they need to replace their chains more frequently. They also can afford to since they have equipment sponsors. If I had shimano buying me chains I'd replace mine much more frequently as well.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

average weekly hours of sleep: you 40-50, pros 70
Think about this. They average 10 hrs/day sleeping. I can't recall the last time I average 10 hrs/day sleeping. Probably back when I was still a toddler. But I know for sure that once I started elementary, it was 8 hrs/day max. By highschool it was down to probably 7. The college years were the most sleep deprived years, 4-5 hrs/night was typical... but it was fun!


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Based on the calories burned they provide I'm better off sitting in a sofa chair. 200-400 calories is my RMR (resting metabolic rate) for 3 hours (about 300).

They should have included TT type speeds, where the pros are in the 30mph range, what many people's flat out sprint speed is on the flats. I almost puke when I see what Tony Martin's speed is for a 40k TT and compare to my own speeds, even being a racer at that. 

Probably not much different than seeing what olympian 1 mile runners do for time and what my 100 meter sprint used to be, they would have easily beaten me. They're doing this for a job for a reason.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

bikerector said:


> Based on the calories burned they provide I'm better off sitting in a sofa chair. 200-400 calories is my RMR (resting metabolic rate) for 3 hours (about 300).


Yeah, I wouldn't burn quite as much as you, but closer to the 180 mark. Geesh in 3 hours I bike about 80km, ok lets say even 60km with a pit stop, and that's only worth 120 calories???? I ride to work in the morning which is 40km and takes me 1.5 hours, so I'm only burning 1-200 calories. Something just doesn't add up, because I'm hungry when I'm done.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

They claim estimated watts at threshold is 170-220. I know several amateur racers whos threshold is 330-340.

If you want a better comparison of you vs. the pros look at the Coggan chart. One thing that this chart fails to cover is that pros have a lot more endurance. I.e. they can put out their near maximum 5 minute power at the end of the race.


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## Marzo92 (Apr 15, 2010)

Calories consumed, not burned. You/we take in way fewer calories while on the ride.
Marzo92


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Note "you" here is the typical Bicycling reader. Slow, neive, and spending way too much money on a "race" bike, when they can't even ride race speeds.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

> Average speed on flat terrain: 17–18 mph


I average 19.8 consistently when riding alone on a typical 40 mile ride. I average slightly over 21 on a longer ride with a few other guys. This is off of Strava or Garmin so it excludes stopped time but includes slowdowns for lights etc. I can appreciate how fast the pro pack travels, but having a pack with 100+ riders on a closed course with full race support changes things a bit. It's still a big difference but not the chasm shown here.



> Estimated average watts at threshold: 170–220


This is way too low, even for a rec cyclinst like me. Guys I ride with who have SRMs show _averages_ of about 190 after a ride.



> Miles ridden in a week: 75–140


I ride about twice that and I'm working full time, have two kids and am in grad school. I'm not even racing any more.



> Calories consumed on a ride: 200–450


This is the most bizarre "fact" here. Strava tells me I burned over 2,700 calories on the last metric century I did. I'm not sure if that's right, but given how hungry I am after riding and how hard it is to not lose a bunch of weight during the riding season, it doesn't seem completely out of the realm of possibility.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Marzo92 said:


> Calories consumed, not burned. You/we take in way fewer calories while on the ride.
> Marzo92


Thanks for that clarification.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

bikerector said:


> They should have included TT type speeds, where the pros are in the 30mph range, what many people's flat out sprint speed is on the flats. I almost puke when I see what Tony Martin's speed is for a 40k TT and compare to my own speeds, even being a racer at that.


Did ya read about Alex Dowsett's UK 10-mile competition record TT recently? 17 mins 20 secs! 34.6mph! Ouch!!

Alex Dowsett sets new British 10-mile time trial record - Cycling Weekly


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## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

Marzo92 said:


> Calories consumed, not burned. You/we take in way fewer calories while on the ride.
> Marzo92


Yeah, I misread that...however I have a hard time believing riders are consuming 4-5k calories ON THE BIKE when they are eating about 8k total for the day. That still doesn't make any sense.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Oye, that article is ridiculous. 

You can't even begin to compare a single rider's speed on a random day versus a 100+ field racing. 

I've averaged 28-29 in Cat 1/2 races. That doesn't mean that any of guys in those race could survive a hard tour stage.

Conversely, you can find lots of pro tour guys that average 18-19 on normal training days, which a lot of people can do even if they don't race. 

Those average watts are total b.s. It is a select few that have an ftp over 400. 

Those gear stats are misleading as well. The tour is the end-all/be-all. Of course they're going to pull out the stops with the best equipment and replacing chains and all. What does that have to do with the day-in/day-out equipment needs of Joe Bikerider? Nothing.

Stupid article.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

bikerector said:


> Probably not much different than seeing what olympian 1 mile runners do for time and what my 100 meter sprint used to be, they would have easily beaten me. They're doing this for a job for a reason.


There's no mile in the Olympics. :thumbsup:


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

I spend a considerable amount of time and energy trying to be as fast and powerful of a racer as I can. If I could go back 20 years and devote my life to cycling I don't think I could ever be a pro. These guys are just sick and I don't think these comparisons really do them justice. One thing I am baffled by is their fatigue resistance which doesn't really come out in any black and white numbers we could see.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

runabike said:


> Oye, that article is ridiculous.
> 
> You can't even begin to compare a single rider's speed on a random day versus a 100+ field racing.
> 
> ...


Yep. Well said.


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## ratherBclimbing (Apr 2, 2007)

chudak said:


> Yeah, I misread that...however I have a hard time believing riders are consuming 4-5k calories ON THE BIKE when they are eating about 8k total for the day. That still doesn't make any sense.


I don't know how you ride, but sounds right to me...


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## ratherBclimbing (Apr 2, 2007)

runabike said:


> Oye, that article is ridiculous.


I was a little surprised to see so much analysis of that nonsense. But then I remembered that it's the internet.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

bikerector said:


> Based on the calories burned they provide I'm better off sitting in a sofa chair. 200-400 calories is my RMR (resting metabolic rate) for 3 hours (about 300).
> 
> They should have included TT type speeds, where the pros are in the 30mph range, what many people's flat out sprint speed is on the flats. I almost puke when I see what Tony Martin's speed is for a 40k TT and compare to my own speeds, even being a racer at that.
> 
> _Probably not much different than seeing what olympian 1 mile runners do for time and what my 100 meter sprint used to be, they would have easily beaten me. They're doing this for a job for a reason._


One thing about cycling is drafting. A cat1/2 guy can hang with a pro peloton on a flat stage. In distance running or track sprinting, absolutely no hope of hanging on.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> One thing about cycling is drafting. A cat1/2 guy can hang with a pro peloton on a flat stage. In distance running or track sprinting, absolutely no hope of hanging on.


The Official Website - USA Cycling

Notice a local Cat 1 beat Kirk Carlsen who used to be pro tour for Garmin. Seeing how that race starts with a 4,500ft ascent of Mt Hamilton I'd hardly call that 'flat'. Pros are just humans too.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

deviousalex said:


> The Official Website - USA Cycling
> 
> Notice a local Cat 1 beat Kirk Carlsen who used to be pro tour for Garmin. Seeing how that race starts with a 4,500ft ascent of Mt Hamilton I'd hardly call that 'flat'. Pros are just humans too.


And that's just proved my point that in cycling, it's easier to keep up with the pros (albeit ex-Tour pro, but still), than it is in running or track sprinting.

I don't think anyone in here can even fathom what it's like to run a 6-min mile for 26 miles to hang with a good marathoner, and 5-min/mi pace with great marathoners. Most athletic and in great shape weekend warriors can't run a 6min mile for 1 mile, that's about it.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> The Official Website - USA Cycling
> 
> Notice a local Cat 1 beat Kirk Carlsen who used to be pro tour for Garmin. Seeing how that race starts with a 4,500ft ascent of Mt Hamilton I'd hardly call that 'flat'. Pros are just humans too.


And I raced it.

It's a 60 mile race; only the first 20 are up mt Hamilton. The final 20 are relatively flat. 

Also, the guy who won it is a bit of a badass. I've raced against him and can say that he has a really fast, really long sprint. He is tough to beat. He has beat some top riders this season. He was Cat5 recently and blew through the ranks and is beating some of the best in California. He might be "just a Cat 1" who works for Specialized as a marketing dude this season but could easily get picked up and paid to ride as a pro next season.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> One thing about cycling is drafting. A cat1/2 guy can hang with a pro peloton on a flat stage. In distance running or track sprinting, absolutely no hope of hanging on.


A cat 1/2 can hang with a pro peloton when they're cruising, but when it's on, it is an entirely different thing altogether. When it's strung out and they're putting the hammer down, either at the end of the stage or in a windy section, then a cat 1/2 would very likely be blown out the back. 

When it's hard, it is unfathomably hard. Very few domestic races in the US would come close.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

ratherBclimbing said:


> I was a little surprised to see so much analysis of that nonsense. But then I remembered that it's the internet.


I don't know what this means. Care to enlighten me?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

runabike said:


> A cat 1/2 can hang with a pro peloton when they're cruising, but when it's on, it is an entirely different thing altogether. When it's strung out and they're putting the hammer down, either at the end of the stage or in a windy section, then a cat 1/2 would very likely be blown out the back.
> 
> When it's hard, it is unfathomably hard. Very few domestic races in the US would come close.


And for most of the race, they're cruising. They don't throttle it from flag to flag. There maybe be opportunities of an attack, like an uphill, or a downhill, or a crosswind, but these are breakaways artitsts. Meanwhile, the peloton will cruise. In last year's TdF, in one of the initial opening flat stage, Peter Sagan's average power for that whole stage was under 200 Watts. The action was at the last few kilometers where the wattage will kill the cat1 guys, but the cat1 guy should be able to hang on until then.

Whereas in a marathon, you'd be dropped from the get go.

That's why I say in cycling, weakness can be masked a lot, alonging for weaker rider to draft until the end. In road cycling, you can have a skinny guy like Froome and a big guy like a Kitel, with each having a specialty, but yet they both can do the same race. In running, there is no way a big guy can keep up with a distance runner, and there is no way a distance runner can keep up with a sprinter. The bigs and the skinnys don't mix in running. You're either skinny and distance, or you're big and sprint.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

It's weird that they'll take a Cat 5 rider stat for power, but Fred/avid level for almost everything else - not that the comparison to a pro is going to be any closer. 

A Cat 5 rider, one that actually shows promise for a win (which is likely the same guy who has a power meter), is well ahead of most regular riders. A lightweight Cat 5 (well, 155lbs) pushing 220 watts is going to have a more impressive showing than the speeds listed - especially the mountainous terrain one.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Here is my comparison: in 1991 it took me 90 minutes to climb L'Alpe d'Huez. The record at the time was held by Fignon at 45 minutes. Okay, so I had full panniers on the bike, but that told me a lot about how slow I was/am compared to the pros. 

Yes, the record has gone down since - but those riders were doped, I tell ya!


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## jmal (Jun 2, 2012)

I can't comment on the details of the article, but I have a couple of pros in my area (Ben King and Jeremiah Bishop) and their solo rides are scary fast. Not only are they fast, but they maintain very high speeds with quite a bit of elevation gain. Going uphill they are consistently a little more than twice as fast as me. And, they are not going all out on their rides while I often am. Granted, I'm no Cat 1--just an average guy, but it's humbling.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> And for most of the race, they're cruising. They don't throttle it from flag to flag. There maybe be opportunities of an attack, like an uphill, or a downhill, or a crosswind, but these are breakaways artitsts. Meanwhile, the peloton will cruise. In last year's TdF, in one of the initial opening flat stage, Peter Sagan's average power for that whole stage was under 200 Watts. The action was at the last few kilometers where the wattage will kill the cat1 guys, but the cat1 guy should be able to hang on until then.
> 
> Whereas in a marathon, you'd be dropped from the get go.
> 
> That's why I say in cycling, weakness can be masked a lot, alonging for weaker rider to draft until the end. In road cycling, you can have a skinny guy like Froome and a big guy like a Kitel, with each having a specialty, but yet they both can do the same race. In running, there is no way a big guy can keep up with a distance runner, and there is no way a distance runner can keep up with a sprinter. The bigs and the skinnys don't mix in running. You're either skinny and distance, or you're big and sprint.


I see what you're saying about running.

But that's what I'm saying about cycling. Just saying someone can hang with a pro peloton isn't really accurate and that's what separates those guys from the local 1s/domestic pros. 

Hell, that's what separates cat 3s from 2s and cat 4s from 3s. That ability to go super, super, super hard over and over again.


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## ratherBclimbing (Apr 2, 2007)

runabike said:


> I don't know what this means. Care to enlighten me?


I'm implying that people on internet chat forums spend an exorbitant amount of time debating utter nonsense. Yes, I realize the irony of debating this point.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

......


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

ratherBclimbing said:


> I'm implying that people on internet chat forums spend an exorbitant amount of time debating utter nonsense. Yes, I realize the irony of debating this point.


A debate would require people, you know, debating the article. No one is really doing that. 

Good try, though. And welcome to the world of online forums.


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## ratherBclimbing (Apr 2, 2007)

runabike said:


> A debate would require people, you know, debating the article. No one is really doing that.
> 
> Good try, though. And welcome to the world of online forums.


I thought your previous post with the double ellipses was more profound than this one.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

runabike said:


> There's no mile in the Olympics. :thumbsup:


Well played. Too much mtb'ing lately where noth are used simultaneously. 100mm travel on an 18in bike with 29in wheels...??? what a mess.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

only because of drafting. If you look at the time differences in flat time trials, or better yet hilly time trials, it translates the same as in running.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

ratherBclimbing said:


> I thought your previous post with the double ellipses was more profound than this one.


That's likely due to your inability to discern what is and isn't being written. 

Bet you really enjoy picture books, too.


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## ratherBclimbing (Apr 2, 2007)

runabike said:


> That's likely due to your inability to discern what is and isn't being written.
> 
> Bet you really enjoy picture books, too.


If you're going to resort to ad hominem attacks at least try to make them funny.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

ratherBclimbing said:


> If you're going to resort to ad hominem attacks at least try to make them funny.


You've got one of those pot/kettle things going, huh? Good for you.

And now you've simply regressed to reciting fallacies as a means of diversion. You're on a roll, now!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

bradkay said:


> Here is my comparison: in 1991 it took me 90 minutes to climb L'Alpe d'Huez. The record at the time was held by Fignon at 45 minutes. Okay, so I had full panniers on the bike, but that told me a lot about how slow I was/am compared to the pros.
> 
> Yes, the record has gone down since - but those riders were doped, I tell ya!


I'm a Clydesdale so I'm never going to win any polka dot jerseys. Many years ago I was climbing Mt Palomar. (So Cals Alpe d' Huez) in the winter and was killing myself to keep my speed @ 9-10 mph. I get passed by Team T-Kom who was here on winter training. They were chatting and clearly not stressed. I estimate their speed was around 16 mph and again, they were chatting. Erik Zabel did slow a bit and said hello to me.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

atpjunkie said:


> I'm a Clydesdale so I'm never going to win any polka dot jerseys. Many years ago I was climbing Mt Palomar. (So Cals Alpe d' Huez) in the winter and was killing myself to keep my speed @ 9-10 mph. I get passed by Team T-Kom who was here on winter training. They were chatting and clearly not stressed. I estimate their speed was around 16 mph and again, they were chatting. Erik Zabel did slow a bit and said hello to me.


I had the same exact experience while doing the Tour Des Chutes in Bend, Oregon two years ago. The toughest part of the event finishes with two back to back Cat 3 climbs that were extremely tough for me at the end of a 100 mile day. As I am dragging my sorry self up the first of those two climbs and maneuvering around a woman who just said screw it and started walking her bike up the hill, Team Bontrager (which at the time included guys like Craddock, Haga, and others that are now World Tour Pros), flew by me, not the least bit stressed at all, just chatting away. Craddock looks over smiles and says hey man, that's a cool bike and keeps on peddling like he is on a leisurely stroll. Meanwhile, I could barely find the strength to crack a smile and nod as a thank you. Apparently, they were in the event as training for another domestic race. I trained for that event for months, riding 5 days a week most weeks and doing hill repeats, sprint drills, and rated climbs regularly and couldn't have touched them if you paid me. It blew me away to realize that those guys weren't anywhere near the level of fitness that Froome and other top pros are on either.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

They are good at their job and I am good at mine. I wonder if any of the Pro's ride when they are 66y/o.


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## wilde737 (Aug 9, 2012)

I can relate to this too, as a clyde myself. A few years ago I was grinding my way up one of our local canyons, just about to puke, when this guy comes up next to me and says hello. I could barely nod, and this dude was cruising like he was going downhill, and had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth to boot. Really put things in perspective for me...



atpjunkie said:


> I'm a Clydesdale so I'm never going to win any polka dot jerseys. Many years ago I was climbing Mt Palomar. (So Cals Alpe d' Huez) in the winter and was killing myself to keep my speed @ 9-10 mph. I get passed by Team T-Kom who was here on winter training. They were chatting and clearly not stressed. I estimate their speed was around 16 mph and again, they were chatting. Erik Zabel did slow a bit and said hello to me.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

wilde737 said:


> I can relate to this too, as a clyde myself. A few years ago I was grinding my way up one of our local canyons, just about to puke, when this guy comes up next to me and says hello. I could barely nod, and this dude was cruising like he was going downhill, and had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth to boot. Really put things in perspective for me...


 I would have enjoyed seeing the guy riding and smoking at the same time. Some of the Pro's used to smoke back in the day as they felt it helped them out. Stimulant I guess but I am not sure what they thought. Obviously smoking is a brain dead activity, and disrespectful to those around you.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

wilde737 said:


> I can relate to this too, as a clyde myself. A few years ago I was grinding my way up one of our local canyons, just about to puke, when this guy comes up next to me and says hello. I could barely nod, and this dude was cruising like he was going downhill, and had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth to boot. Really put things in perspective for me...


Hilarious...


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

love the guy in the comments who believes that he could hang on to the pro peloton because he averages 20mph on flat terrain. _"put me on the back of the peloton and i'll hold 23-24 mph for an hour" _ comedy gold.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

dnice said:


> love the guy in the comments who believes that he could hang on to the pro peloton because he averages 20mph on flat terrain. _"put me on the back of the peloton and i'll hold 23-24 mph for an hour" _ comedy gold.


It's actually really easy provided there is no crosswind. Especially with a peloton of 200 people. There's a ride in the bay area (Spectrum) where we get around 100 guys sometimes. I've been on that ride and we've averaged 25mph for 36 miles (while sort of obeying stop signs) over rolling hills with about 1k ft climbing in total. People don't generally ride that hard on the way back on this segment either. My average power for that segment was 205 watts (3.0 W/Kg), and that was with doing a couple pulls on the front and trying to help chase down a breakaway. 

Strava Segment | Spectrum - Old Page Mill to Dish Sprint

I remember seeing one of Ted King's ToC rides on Strava that started out with a HC category climb. He *averaged* 75 watts for the stage.

So yes, on flat terrain without groups trying to shell you in the cross wind it would be fairly easy for an amateur to hang in the peloton at a 25 mph speed.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

wilde737 said:


> I can relate to this too, as a clyde myself. A few years ago I was grinding my way up one of our local canyons, just about to puke, when this guy comes up next to me and says hello. I could barely nod, and this dude was cruising like he was going downhill, and had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth to boot. Really put things in perspective for me...


I was a heavy smoker on and off for years. I was also a competitive runner. At the peak of my arrogance I placed well in a half marathon and lit up a smoke on the sideline to cheer for my buddies as they came down the finishing chute. 

He knew what he was doing.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

deviousalex said:


> It's actually really easy provided there is no crosswind. Especially with a peloton of 200 people. There's a ride in the bay area (Spectrum) where we get around 100 guys sometimes. I've been on that ride and we've averaged 25mph for 36 miles (while sort of obeying stop signs) over rolling hills with about 1k ft climbing in total. People don't generally ride that hard on the way back on this segment either. My average power for that segment was 205 watts (3.0 W/Kg), and that was with doing a couple pulls on the front and trying to help chase down a breakaway.
> 
> Strava Segment | Spectrum - Old Page Mill to Dish Sprint
> 
> ...


i was not questioning the fact, moreso noting that the fact is utterly and totally meaningless.

the pro peloton DOES attack in crosswinds, so riding in the draft on a flat stage where no one's chasing or attacking does NOT mean anything because the minute they turn it up, it's game over. if phil gaimon can get put in hurt locker in the middle of a "relaxed" stage because--racing!-- what's the point of even stating that you can sit on back of a pro peloton drafting for an hour. it's an oddity of physics, but conveys nothing about your ability to actually compete against pro cyclists. it does tell me that you're faster than me though. :thumbsup:

Phil Gaimon Journal: Rough starts at the Tour of California - VeloNews.com


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

BikeLayne said:


> They are good at their job and I am good at mine. I wonder if any of the Pro's ride when they are 66y/o.


I know that Eddy still rides...


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

bradkay said:


> I know that Eddy still rides...


hinault will still drop me going up alpe d'huez.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I just thought of something funny. After several hard attacks and break attempts, a few guys and I made it all the way around to lap the field in a P1/2 crit recently. My buddy got lapped and after the race we compared numbers. Our strava data shows very similar power output and in the ~60minute crit on the 1mi course, he averaged 26.4mph while I averaged 27.4mph. 

Similar power estimates and a 1mph difference does very little to tell the story.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> I just thought of something funny. After several hard attacks and break attempts, a few guys and I made it all the way around to lap the field in a P1/2 crit recently. My buddy got lapped and after the race we compared numbers. Our strava data shows very similar power output and in the ~60minute crit on the 1mi course, he averaged 26.4mph while I averaged 27.4mph.
> 
> Similar power estimates and a 1mph difference does very little to tell the story.


Clearly you're good at faking pulls then


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

runabike said:


> A cat 1/2 can hang with a pro peloton when they're cruising, but when it's on, it is an entirely different thing altogether. When it's strung out and they're putting the hammer down, either at the end of the stage or in a windy section, then a cat 1/2 would very likely be blown out the back.


This is roughly right. The clearest explanation I ever heard is that a seasoned 1/2 racer can take what a pro dishes out at them, but they can't dish it back. This is all the difference in the world because it means only one of them has the ability to attack when it gets decisive.

I'm guilty as anyone of looking at my stats and seeing how close I come to matching up against pro talent, but it helps to think a bit about what these guys do. They drop back to team cars, grab several kilos of water and food and chase back onto the pack. Ever been dropped in a race and chased back on? Now, increase the speed by 20%. It is all cool talking about whether someone is strong enough to hang with the pro speeds, but to actually contribute on a team you are useless if all you can do is tuck in the draft and ride out the finish.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I have the book "Faster" by top British time-trialist and writer Michael Hutchinson (an awesome book about top racer performance). Hutch is probably the best UK short-distance (up to 50 miles) time-trialist ever. He held the 10mile TT record until recently until taken from him by UK rider and top Euro pro Alex Dowsett. Both rides were in the 17 minute range.

He says this about Bradley Wiggins -

_"The fundamental differences between individuals can be pretty large. Sir Bradley Wiggins won the British ten-mile TT championships in 2011 -one of his few appearances in a UK domestic race. The field consisted of riders from Wiggins down to good domestic club riders - people with some talent who take the sport seriously.
Wiggins won the even it 19 mins 14 secs, I (Hutchinson) was 2nd in 19:55 which was less than an embarrassment than I was expecting. The rider in 93rd place did 24:03. For him to have ridden as fast as Wiggins would have required him to find about twice the power he actually produced. Ride as hard as you possibly can and you're 1/2 way there!
Wiggins' average power for the ride was about 470w. He could have made the top 20 on 334w. For Wiggins, 334w is an easy training pace. Given enough fuel he could do it almost indefinitely. Five to six hours would be no problem and he could do it while holding a conversation but it's still good enough to beat some relatively serious bike riders.
But Wiggins in a flat-out sprint would only manage about 1200w. A track sprinter like Chris Hoy can hit something over 2300w. Hoy howerver would struggle to finish twentieth in the 10mile TT championship. Neither could beat Cavendish in a bunch sprint on the road and none of them could live with a full-blooded attack by a pure climber in the high mountains."_


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> He says this about Bradley Wiggins -
> 
> _"The fundamental differences between individuals can be pretty large. Sir Bradley Wiggins won the British ten-mile TT championships in 2011 -one of his few appearances in a UK domestic race. The field consisted of riders from Wiggins down to good domestic club riders - people with some talent who take the sport seriously.
> Wiggins won the even it 19 mins 14 secs, I (Hutchinson) was 2nd in 19:55 which was less than an embarrassment than I was expecting. The rider in 93rd place did 24:03. For him to have ridden as fast as Wiggins would have required him to find about twice the power he actually produced. Ride as hard as you possibly can and you're 1/2 way there!
> ...


Just pointing out that this is world class talent. Being able to hang and winning/placing or having an effect on the race are completely different things. In any bike race (pro or otherwise) there is a wide range of talent in the field.

In races I've been in where the peloton is over 30 people at least half the field is just pack fodder. The only purpose they seem to serve is a psychological edge to their team mates and for other people to hide in the wind. They will never attack or even contribute to a chase, many are hanging on for dear life drafting in a pack. I'm sure it's the same for pro races. Look at hard stages in a grand tour or the big classics. When it's less than 50km to go you barely see anyone there that's not on a pro tour team. If you do see a pro continental or continental guy it's the strongest guy on the team.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I have been watching this off and on today as it has become my fitness goal. There are some semi-pro and women pros riding it alongside amateurs. Some records on major climbs are discussed as well. It sheds a little light on the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-M29rBstEQ


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

21 miles per hour is achievable by a non-pro, but for how long? I think most amateur cyclists would be very happy to achieve 17 mph average on say a Gran Fondo type event.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> 21 miles per hour is achievable by a non-pro, but for how long? I think most amateur cyclists would be very happy to achieve 17 mph average on say a Gran Fondo type event.


Probably. But there are plenty of amateurs who can average 20mph for a while. A cat 4 friend just rode a solo century with 7000+ft of climbing and a 19mph average.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Trek_5200 said:


> 21 miles per hour is achievable by a non-pro, but for how long? I think most amateur cyclists would be very happy to achieve 17 mph average on say a Gran Fondo type event.


Is that with a 53x39 or a compact?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

runabike said:


> Is that with a 53x39 or a compact?


And that's relevant how...?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Local Hero said:


> Probably. But there are plenty of amateurs who can average 20mph for a while. A cat 4 friend just rode a solo century with 7000+ft of climbing and a 19mph average.


That's very impressive. Your friend is clearly an outlier. How many days a week is he going out, and how many hours is he supplementing with a trainer.


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> 21 miles per hour is achievable by a non-pro, but for how long? I think most amateur cyclists would be very happy to achieve 17 mph average on say a Gran Fondo type event.


I agree, and it is helpful for us to all keep our feet touching the ground here. I don't mean this as a backdoor brag, but if I spend too much time with my only group riding experience with the fast crowd or amateur races I can get a warped sense of what is average. I go and do a club century or gran fondo and suddenly my tempo pace becomes pointy end of the field. Most people are delighted to average over 17mph and in truth it can take several years of regular riding to do it.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> 21 miles per hour is achievable by a non-pro, but for how long? I think most amateur cyclists would be very happy to achieve 17 mph average on say a Gran Fondo type event.


I just went to Strava and looked at some of the locals that I feel are strong riders and it seems that 16 to 17 mph is the usual training speed. In my age group of 65+ it looks to be 13 to 14mph. Hilly+windy terrain. Obviously everybody can go faster for a while or in group rides. Anyway your 17mph sounds good to me.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Duane Gran said:


> I agree, and it is helpful for us to all keep our feet touching the ground here. I don't mean this as a backdoor brag, but if I spend too much time with my only group riding experience with the fast crowd or amateur races I can get a warped sense of what is average. I go and do a club century or gran fondo and suddenly my tempo pace becomes pointy end of the field. Most people are delighted to average over 17mph and in truth it can take several years of regular riding to do it.


Yes, by drafting you are getting others to cut down your work. The reduction in effort is quite considerable. My numbers assumed people are riding by themselves.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> I just thought of something funny. After several hard attacks and break attempts, a few guys and I made it all the way around to lap the field in a P1/2 crit recently. My buddy got lapped and after the race we compared numbers. Our strava data shows very similar power output and in the ~60minute crit on the 1mi course, he averaged 26.4mph while I averaged 27.4mph.
> 
> Similar power estimates and a 1mph difference does very little to tell the story.


This is why data is stupid. Cycling is pretty simple and you don't need a bunch of facts and statistics to do it right. Either you are at the front or you are at the back. Either you are putting on the hurt, or you are taking it. Either you are nailing the corners or taking them like a pansy. Don't need no cat eye to tell me to pedal faster.


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> Probably. But there are plenty of amateurs who can average 20mph for a while. A cat 4 friend just rode a solo century with 7000+ft of climbing and a 19mph average.


Can he do that several days in a row?

Like anyone else, if I'm well-rested I can go out and do a much harder, longer and faster ride than I usually do. But then to do it again the next day? Forget it. That's another pro difference -- they're often doing 100+ mile rides with lots of climbing several days in a row, not as one-time rides not to be repeated until the following weekend.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Holy Smokes! Did you guys discover that you aren't as good at racing bikes as professional cyclists? Amazing!


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

foto said:


> Holy Smokes! Did you guys discover that you aren't as good at racing bikes as professional cyclists? Amazing!


Surprisingly, there is a recurring debate about that on RBR. Moreover, I think what interests people is *how much* better they are, etc...


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

I was riding behind jani brajkovic a few days ago and he was faster than me on a big climb.

That is my you vs the pros story, I hoped you liked it.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

JackDaniels said:


> I was riding behind jani brajkovic a few days ago and he was faster than me on a big climb.
> 
> That is my you vs the pros story, I hoped you liked it.


This is the thing that seriously baffles me about this site and some that frequent it. Why do people post things like this (seriously)? You see people having a conversation, going back and forth sharing experiences or perspectives and rather than simply adding something or deciding that the discussion doesn't interest you and moving on to a thread that does, you actually take the time and make an effort to insult and make fun of a group of people engaged in a discussion. Why? What do you get out of that and why is it so appealing to do it again and again day after day. Why come on here just to spend 50% of your time picking fights with people and insulting them like we're in the 6th grade? I know I, for one, get tired of reading it.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

Please. How did I insult you? I was seriously riding behind Jani Brajkovic in Boulder Colorado on Lee Hill road, we were both stopped at the bottom because of the flood construction. As an amateur cat 2 racer, I thought it was interesting to watch him utterly drop me while I was flailing away at 350 watts.

Sorry it wasn't as cool as your story about being dropped by Chad Haga.


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## Data_God (Oct 9, 2012)

Trek_5200 said:


> 21 miles per hour is achievable by a non-pro, but for how long? I think most amateur cyclists would be very happy to achieve 17 mph average on say a Gran Fondo type event.


Non Pro. Most certainly Non Pro. And 63+ Years old. In excess of 21 mph avg is not that hard assuming a modicum of fitness. Empirical Data Point: 10 Mile TT. Hilly. As in absolutely Not Flat :^) Averaged 22.5 Mph. With some wind.

But your point is still somewhat valid. An intermediate group ride that averages 18.1 mph has some "hard" sections in it. But the lower avg speed is a result of Red Lights, Stop Signs and some traffic.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

deviousalex said:


> And that's relevant how...?


It's very relevant.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Duane Gran said:


> I agree, and it is helpful for us to all keep our feet touching the ground here. I don't mean this as a backdoor brag, but if I spend too much time with my only group riding experience with the fast crowd or amateur races I can get a warped sense of what is average. I go and do a club century or gran fondo and suddenly my tempo pace becomes pointy end of the field. Most people are delighted to average over 17mph and in truth it can take several years of regular riding to do it.


I think you're confusing hobbyists with racers. This is a forum about racing so the you vs. pros discussion is more centered on racers than the casual hobbyist. 

For a bike racer, 17 mph is absolutely nothing to be happy about.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

foto said:


> Holy Smokes! Did you guys discover that you aren't as good at racing bikes as professional cyclists? Amazing!


Pretty much all that needs to be said! :thumbsup:


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

JackDaniels said:


> Please. How did I insult you? I was seriously riding behind Jani Brajkovic in Boulder Colorado on Lee Hill road, we were both stopped at the bottom because of the flood construction. As an amateur cat 2 racer, I thought it was interesting to watch him utterly drop me while I was flailing away at 350 watts.
> 
> Sorry it wasn't as cool as your story about being dropped by Chad Haga.


I like your story. 

Is he as tiny in real life as he looks on TV?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> That's very impressive. Your friend is clearly an outlier. How many days a week is he going out, and how many hours is he supplementing with a trainer.


I think he rests one day per week but I'm not sure.


bike981 said:


> Can he do that several days in a row?


It was his third century in six days. 

He probably will not be Cat 4 for long. 

I wont post his data out here but would be happy to send either of you guys a private message link to the kid's strava, so long as you agree that you will not post it on the open boards. I have to respect his privacy to some degree


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Rashadabd said:


> Surprisingly, there is a recurring debate about that on RBR. Moreover, I think what interests people is *how much* better they are, etc...


I think it's really hard to put it into perspective. As a Cat 4 I always thought they were amazing but their performances were human-like. If I just buckled down and devoted 4-5 years of 15000+ miles, maybe that level would be attainable.

Once I upgraded to a 1 and started doing bigger and bigger races, that perspective changed and their performances were more god-like. 

For me, the faster and harder I was able to ride, the more I realized _how much_ faster and harder they were able to ride. It's like the closer I got to pro-level, the further away I realized it really was. 

Forget average speeds and sitting in averaging 25+ for a 100 miles. That's not difficult at all. it's the hard parts. The hard parts of races at that level are unfreakingfathomable.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

runabike said:


> I think it's really hard to put it into perspective. As a Cat 4 I always thought they were amazing but their performances were human-like. If I just buckled down and devoted 4-5 years of 15000+ miles, maybe that level would be attainable.
> 
> Once I upgraded to a 1 and started doing bigger and bigger races, that perspective changed and their performances were more god-like.
> 
> ...


Yup, I agree. What they do is incredible really. It's not just about putting more time in or it being their job, they are gifted athletes in their own right.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

runabike said:


> Is he as tiny in real life as he looks on TV?


He didn't look as emaciated as I've seen him in pictures. Bigger than he looks on TV


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Another thing that's misleading about looking at rider's power output vs. A club racer's is weight. Someone cited Wiggins's ride @ 470w. The guy is a 150lb stick. Contador is TINY and he can drill for 440w. These power numbers would be excellent for a 200lb TT specialist, they're downright alien for 130-150lb munchkins, especially 4 hours into a mountainous race.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

davidka said:


> Another thing that's misleading about looking at rider's power output vs. A club racer's is weight. Someone cited Wiggins's ride @ 470w. The guy is a 150lb stick. Contador is TINY and he can drill for 440w. These power numbers would be excellent for a 200lb TT specialist, they're downright alien for 130-150lb munchkins, especially 4 hours into a mountainous race.


solid point.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

davidka said:


> Another thing that's misleading about looking at rider's power output vs. A club racer's is weight. Someone cited Wiggins's ride @ 470w. The guy is a 150lb stick. Contador is TINY and he can drill for 440w. These power numbers would be excellent for a 200lb TT specialist, they're downright alien for 130-150lb munchkins, especially 4 hours into a mountainous race.


Hence why the Coggan chart is important. It does W/Kg. 

Btw - 470 watts at 150 lbs would be 6.9 W/kg. That's more than anyone did in the 'EPO era'. Michele Ferrari used to claim you'd need 6.7 W/kg on threshold level climbs to win the Tour.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> Btw - 470 watts at 150 lbs would be 6.9 W/kg. That's more than anyone did in the 'EPO era'. Michele Ferrari used to claim you'd need 6.7 W/kg on threshold level climbs to win the Tour.


It was 470w for ~20 minutes which is consistent with the FTP estimates I've seen of Wiggins (~440-450w). I don't think you get to EPO power levels unless you can hold the high 6w/kg power for an hour or so. Also, I think Wiggins is actually closer to 160lbs.


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