# Fake Colnago's - Beware!



## nvrsetl

Was over at the Pinarello forum and this topic came up and then someone posted this.

http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/...-frame-and-fork-52Medium-520MM-BLACK-EPS.html


This is simply outrageous and defames the brand.


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## FrenchNago

nvrsetl said:


> Was over at the Pinarello forum and this topic came up and then someone posted this.
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/...-frame-and-fork-52Medium-520MM-BLACK-EPS.html
> 
> 
> This is simply outrageous and defames the brand.


It's easy to spot though.............if you know what a real Nag is about


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## Salsa_Lover

incredible

including fake Campy headset, seatpost and Cinelli Ram bars ! only $900 :nono:

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-f...nd-fork-45-Small-515MM-WHITE-wholesalers.html


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## config

I can't back this up but the pictures may be of the real thing but definitely what you get won't be.


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## chocy

the picture is also fake because it has integrated headset, BB tread doesn't look right (no Ti insert) also the joint between the lugs and tube is too crisp. Real Colnago has much more rounded Lug end. I had chinese frame before but it was non-brand. Now I have real EPS and the quality is night and day. Fake things suck


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## ghostryder

chocy said:


> the picture is also fake because it has integrated headset, BB tread doesn't look right (no Ti insert) also the joint between the lugs and tube is too crisp. Real Colnago has much more rounded Lug end. I had chinese frame before but it was non-brand. Now I have real EPS and the quality is night and day. Fake things suck



Please tell that to all the people on this board that believe the frames are from the same factories as the real bikes.


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## iyeoh

Wow Chinagos! 

First, there were Chinarellos, and now there are Chinagos as well. When is the ChiRosa arriving?

The workmanship on those lugs and bottom brackets look pretty crude from the close up shots. You've got to be pretty dense to not know that its a fake.

EPS and a Dogma 60.1 frames for $1400 for both, and the Cinelli Rams and MOST Integrateds are thrown in for free! hehehe Darn... I was hoping for a C59 with free Lightweight Obermayers for $500.. its too bad Why can't they get with the program. The EPS is not new


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## Maverick

shocking..

btw, has anyone ever seen a fake C50?
perhaps it's too troublesome to fabricate the HP chainstays  
hmmm..

it's now gotten to the point that the fakes looks almost as good as the real thing.


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## Cinelli 82220

Send them the money, they will not send you a fake Colnago. The bad news is they won't send you anything at all.
Just another internet scammer using stolen photos. Should be obvious when they refer to a "unit" or "set" instead of frameset or bicycle. These people have a simple template and use it for anything, bikes, Callaway golf clubs, stereo equipment, whatever.
Lots of funny posts in this thread though, you guys crack me up!


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## Ride-Fly

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Send them the money, they will not send you a fake Colnago. The bad news is they won't send you anything at all.
> Just another internet scammer using stolen photos. Should be obvious when they refer to a "unit" or "set" instead of frameset or bicycle. These people have a simple template and use it for anything, bikes, Callaway golf clubs, stereo equipment, whatever.
> Lots of funny posts in this thread though, you guys crack me up!



+1000!!!

those are pics of real EPSs. Some of the comments about the clues that make it fake EPSs are too funny. Ahhhh hello??? EPSs were the first Colnagos to use integrated tapered headsets. Plus how can one tell the pics that the BB insert is not Ti? Comments about the lugs being too sharp and BB cluster being crude- they look exactly the same as the rest of close-up pics I've seen of the EPSs

BL- internet scammers using real pics to steal your money and CC info.


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## iyeoh

Oh come on... CyclingYong is a "reputable vendor" of distinctly fake frames painted to look like the real thing. This forum (not the Colnago section) has a ton of purchasers who have received fake Pinarello merchandise. Ridable bikes for sure, but not the real deal. Browse the multiple proud owners in this forum showing off their fake Italian frames. You send him money, I'm pretty sure you'll receive some sort of frame, after a long long time. Who knows what it is made of, or where its from. Or when it'll just fall apart.

Just wanted to add that I have seen a "real" fake Chinarello Prince from CyclingYong in real life. Looks like a bike and the cyclist sure rode it like a bike (i.e., left me in the dust), and real light too (in fact way too light for an Italian brand.. weighs closer to a Scott or some other weight-conscious brand), but a Pinarello it wasn't.

Even worse, there is a Taiwanese vendor with a legit web site selling frames under a different name which the company claims is an *exact replica* of Colnagos, which they say uses the very same carbon tubes. And they just use some other dorky name as sell their frames as Colnago replicas, and even dare advertise that their frames ride exactly the same. That stuff is all over the Mandarin speaking forums. Plus, they sell the EPS replcas for US$2500 (not$800) for domestic Taiwanese consumption only. That is a whole lot more brazen.


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## Salsa_Lover

^^^
that would make a great winter/bad weather bike though. minus the "fall apart" part


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## mrbubbles

FrenchNago said:


> It's easy to spot though.............if you know what a real Nag is about


Easy to spot? What's the difference?


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## chocy

I have to say that image on alibaba is definitely fake. If you own a real one it is actually quite easy to tell. Sure the difference may be subtle. First of all EPS does NOT have full integrated headset. It is SEMI-INTEGRATED. which means there is still a black lip that is visible at both top and bottom of the headset. Another thing is the BB face is totally off it's too chopped off looking. of course this is almost invisible once built up. And I say it again the way lug and tube meets is too crisp. real Colango has much smooth curved transition. 

Yes these are very subtle issues but when you are picky enough to fork up kind of money you do for Colnago you don't miss the difference.


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## iyeoh

You can't just post a picture like that from a distance of the whole bike and expect people to spot differences. First of all, for all fake frames, you just have to walk up to the frame and look at the craftsmanship, and you will immediately know its a fake. The fakeness is downright obvious, even if you don't know exactly what a EPS truly looks like. You know what a Colnago looks like and you are accustom to a super high standard of craftsmanship. You know its not a Colnago for sure. That ends the discussion.


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## iyeoh

Where are the Colnago headsets on the pictures of the fake frames? One would get immediately suspicious about a missing Colnago headset that is supposed to come with the frame.


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## iyeoh

Here....

CyclingYong delivers a Chinarello Dogma 60.1 to an apparently very happy roadbikereview forum member.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=3305270&postcount=3

Look at the craftsmanship and tell me that it even comes close to a genuine high end Italian bike.

Of course, my favorite ever. This one belongs in a museum.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=3267404&postcount=5


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## robdamanii

A lot of what this comes down to is people wanting the image associated with a high end bike, but being unable to afford one. Sadly, people no longer bother to work for what they want, they all feel entitled to something "awesome" for barely any cost.

Sad situation, really. And it ends up bringing garbage into the marketplace such as these copies.


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## AnthonyL88

nvrsetl said:


> Was over at the Pinarello forum and this topic came up and then someone posted this.
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/...-frame-and-fork-52Medium-520MM-BLACK-EPS.html
> 
> 
> This is simply outrageous and defames the brand.


There's no 2011 Colnago EPS, but there's a 2011 Colnago EPQ.


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## iyeoh

robdamanii said:


> A lot of what this comes down to is people wanting the image associated with a high end bike, but being unable to afford one. Sadly, people no longer bother to work for what they want, they all feel entitled to something "awesome" for barely any cost.
> 
> Sad situation, really. And it ends up bringing garbage into the marketplace such as these copies.



Errr... I've seen some of these with Super Record and $3,200 Bora 2 Ultras. I wouldn't generalize all people who buy these imitation frames as being broke. Well, perhaps for the most part. But there are some people who are just downright cheap and like a great bargain. On the other hand, do frames really have to cost $5,500? A lot of that is markup by distributors and retailers. Any wonder why $500 to $800 seems like such a great bargain?


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## Ride-Fly

chocy said:


> I have to say that image on alibaba is definitely fake. If you own a real one it is actually quite easy to tell. Sure the difference may be subtle. First of all EPS does NOT have full integrated headset. It is SEMI-INTEGRATED. which means there is still a black lip that is visible at both top and bottom of the headset. Another thing is the BB face is totally off it's too chopped off looking. of course this is almost invisible once built up. And I say it again the way lug and tube meets is too crisp. real Colango has much smooth curved transition.
> 
> Yes these are very subtle issues but when you are picky enough to fork up kind of money you do for Colnago you don't miss the difference.


OK, the one thing I see that is not like the real one is the one on the website doesn't have a frt derailleur braze-on (riveted). But in the last picture before the geo chart, there seems to be a frt d tab while the rest of the pics don't show that.


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## mrbubbles

Ride-Fly said:


> OK, the one thing I see that is not like the real one is the one on the website doesn't have a frt derailleur braze-on (riveted). But in the last picture before the geo chart, there seems to be a frt d tab while the rest of the pics don't show that.


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## Sablotny

I just saw these advertised and was like "wow - a lot of work with calipers and molds or something to get it so close to the original." Surprised Ernesto can't shut these guys down - its a manufacturer promising to make up to 50 a month.

Also makes me wonder where Colnago gets its carbon tubes and sub-assemblies. Pinarello's are made in China - would it be that surprising that the manufacturing factory copied some molds and started to make frames on the side?


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## robdamanii

iyeoh said:


> Errr... I've seen some of these with Super Record and $3,200 Bora 2 Ultras. I wouldn't generalize all people who buy these imitation frames as being broke. Well, perhaps for the most part. But there are some people who are just downright cheap and like a great bargain. On the other hand, do frames really have to cost $5,500? A lot of that is markup by distributors and retailers. Any wonder why $500 to $800 seems like such a great bargain?


They cost that much because the market commands that price. They may not be worth it to you, but the cry of "they're too expensive and it's all markup" (and markup is a little misleading; you have to recoup costs on the frame, so the "markup" is really paying for the frames development after the fact) does NOT give anyone carte blanche to become a moral cripple and purchase something that obviously rips off another person's hard work.


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## Cinelli 82220

Sablotny said:


> I just saw these advertised and was like "wow - a lot of work with calipers and molds or something to get it so close to the original." Surprised Ernesto can't shut these guys down - its a manufacturer promising to make up to 50 a month.
> 
> Also makes me wonder where Colnago gets its carbon tubes and sub-assemblies. Pinarello's are made in China - would it be that surprising that the manufacturing factory copied some molds and started to make frames on the side?


Pinas are made in Taiwan, not China. I think most frame parts for the Colnago are made in Italy, though a company in Belgium used to make some carbon parts for them.
It's possible they are using discarded molds for the Pinarello clones. I think several models use the same molds, so there are, or were, lots of worn discarded molds. And the molds would likely produced by an outside supplier, not the frame building company. The kind of large multi axis mills needed are very expensive. That opens another avenue for theft. Copying the mostly tubular shapes on the Colnago would be easy compared to the Pinarello.
I was tempted to get a Colnago copy just to take apart, but the aliexpress site wants too much personal info.
It is funny they can't get the decal placement on the Dogmas right, very sloppy work by the finishers.


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## iyeoh

ppfffttrt


robdamanii said:


> They cost that much because the market commands that price. They may not be worth it to you, but the cry of "they're too expensive and it's all markup" (and markup is a little misleading; you have to recoup costs on the frame, so the "markup" is really paying for the frames development after the fact) does NOT give anyone carte blanche to become a moral cripple and purchase something that obviously rips off another person's hard work.


Rob,

Relax dude... I don't own a fake and I don't intend to ever own one. I know quality when I see it, and fakes have no quality. Nothing I own is not genuine.

And I have had more than enough of my fair share of Colnagos over the years, but that doesn't matter.

I nevertheless still believe that $5,500 is an outrageous price for a frame, especially when the same genuine frame costs up to $2,000 less in Asia, and sometimes even more than that (relax, I'm referring to a real C59 bought in Asia, complete with warranty). Why is it that the retailer in Hong Kong and Taipei manages to sell the same frame for less than $3,500 (yes, genuine merchandise bought at legitimate authorized Colnago dealers)? Well, the market in Hong Kong says that a C59 costs $3,400 to $3,800, with freebies thrown in. I'll point my middle finger at the US retailer any day of the week. 

If anything, I can fly out to Milan, buy a C59, stay at a fine hotel, eat a fine meal, and head back to the US and still come out ahead in cost savings.

You are making unfair assumptions about who I am without knowing me, not least of which you are directly accusing me of purchasing fake merchandise. You are barking up the wrong tree. Take your personal vendettas out on someone who deserves those insults. 

I don't own a fake, *I won't even own a real Colnago made in Taiwan*, or *even an Italian Colnago with Japanese-made tubes*, let alone a fake Colnago made in China. For the same reason, I refuse to ride a modern Pinarello or De Rosa, both of which I regard as complete sell outs, who themselves [email protected]$tardize their products into fakes with false, misleading stickers. My Colnagos were made completely in Italy. 

You don't know me, and yet you are unfairly attacking me. That is major uncool. Get off the high horse. The air up there is kinda thin.


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## leetony

*Real made in Italy Colnago?*

Hi! Which is the last real fully made in Italy Colnago? EP? Thanks!


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## robdamanii

iyeoh said:


> ppfffttrt
> 
> Rob,
> 
> Relax dude... I don't own a fake and I don't intend to ever own one. I know quality when I see it, and fakes have no quality. Nothing I own is not genuine.
> 
> And I have had more than enough of my fair share of Colnagos over the years, but that doesn't matter.
> 
> I nevertheless still believe that $5,500 is an outrageous price for a frame, especially when the same genuine frame costs up to $2,000 less in Asia, and sometimes even more than that (relax, I'm referring to a real C59 bought in Asia, complete with warranty). Why is it that the retailer in Hong Kong and Taipei manages to sell the same frame for less than $3,500 (yes, genuine merchandise bought at legitimate authorized Colnago dealers)? Well, the market in Hong Kong says that a C59 costs $3,400 to $3,800, with freebies thrown in. I'll point my middle finger at the US retailer any day of the week.
> 
> If anything, I can fly out to Milan, buy a C59, stay at a fine hotel, eat a fine meal, and head back to the US and still come out ahead in cost savings.
> 
> You are making unfair assumptions about who I am without knowing me, not least of which you are directly accusing me of purchasing fake merchandise. You are barking up the wrong tree. Take your personal vendettas out on someone who deserves those insults.
> 
> I don't own a fake, *I won't even own a real Colnago made in Taiwan*, or *even an Italian Colnago with Japanese-made tubes*, let alone a fake Colnago made in China. For the same reason, I refuse to ride a modern Pinarello or De Rosa, both of which I regard as complete sell outs, who themselves [email protected]$tardize their products into fakes with false, misleading stickers. My Colnagos were made completely in Italy.
> 
> You don't know me, and yet you are unfairly attacking me. That is major uncool. Get off the high horse. The air up there is kinda thin.


Unbunch your panties son. I never said you specifically purchased one of these ripoffs, and I don't frankly give a crap what your experience with Colnagos is, good or bad. Good for you if you don't pay $5k for a frameset, I love a good deal as much as the next guy. I frankly don't have any issue with buying one in Italy, or anywhere else, provided it is the real thing, and acquired legitimately (i.e. not a gray market frame or a factory second or whatever) which can obviously be done.

I do however have a major problem with this chinese ripoff crap. The point of this thread is that there ARE fakes out there, and for someone to buy a fake they throw all moral boundaries out the window. 

Now if you can somehow extrapolate that I called you a moral midget and a scumbag from my first post, maybe you should check your inferiority complex at the door next time, since that was far from the case, and your attitude is excessive for the situation at hand.


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## chocy

EPS should be the one. 
EPS brought a lot of controversy because it started using Japanese T900 instead of Italians fiber. But the tube is all is made in Italy. 

It is not confirmed by Q stays on EPQ and C59 may be sourced from Taiwan.


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## FrenchNago

Not sure about EPS, I'd say the C50 line and its derivatives :Extreme Power and Extreme C  

With those you are getting 100% Italian (Even though I believe the carbon weave is Japanese (Toray), the resin & glues might be Italian, German, or sourced in any other country )


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## iyeoh

robdamanii said:


> Unbunch your panties son.


You've stated your opinion. Now, I would greatly appreciate if you would lay off the condescension. Unless you are at least in the early 70s, you would not have the wherewithal to be my father. From the photos on your blog, you don't appear to be very old. Therefore, please don't call me "son."

And its none of my concern what anyone else does with their money. While I don't agree with the concept of buying fake merchandise, one can buy these Chinese frames if one desires, and then take the risk of having the fork or headtube crack apart while descending downhill at 50 mph.


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## diablo2112

robdamanii said:


> I do however have a major problem with this chinese ripoff crap. The point of this thread is that there ARE fakes out there, and for someone to buy a fake they throw all moral boundaries out the window.


Seems a bit extreme. *All* moral boundaries? There's no other action a human can willfully make that isn't a bit more morally repugnant? And I'm pretty certain every single American has bought a fake something. They many not know it, but it's certainly been done by everyone. Does this mean every American has thrown all moral boundaries out the window? Perhaps you meant to say "knowingly buy a fake"?


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## robdamanii

diablo2112 said:


> Seems a bit extreme. *All* moral boundaries? There's no other action a human can willfully make that isn't a bit more morally repugnant? And I'm pretty certain every single American has bought a fake something. They many not know it, but it's certainly been done by everyone. Does this mean every American has thrown all moral boundaries out the window? Perhaps you meant to say "knowingly buy a fake"?


Let's put it this way:

People who are seeking these out KNOW they are fake, and they do not care if they are or not. That in itself is just a matter of sweeping their morals under the rug, if they had any in the first place.




iyeoh said:


> You've stated your opinion. Now, I would greatly appreciate if you would lay off the condescension. Unless you are at least in the early 70s, you would not have the wherewithal to be my father. From the photos on your blog, you don't appear to be very old. Therefore, please don't call me "son."
> 
> And its none of my concern what anyone else does with their money. While I don't agree with the concept of buying fake merchandise, one can buy these Chinese frames if one desires, and then take the risk of having the fork or headtube crack apart while descending downhill at 50 mph.



Really, you and I share much the same opinion. I have no problem if people want to risk purchasing this junk and kill themselves while riding it. I can't stop that, and I really don't care. The thing I care very much about are the misguided, brainwashed fanboys of these things, claiming that they are exactly the same quality as the real thing. I've seen it over and over on these forums, I've seen it on other forums, and it never ceases to amaze me how easily people are willing to believe whatever they need to believe in order to justify their choice.

And god forbid you ask for proof of their claims (that these are really untagged models going out the back door of the factory) they'll burst a hemorrhoid and scream and yell that they are right, despite any proof to the contrary or lack of supporting evidence.

It's sad really. It's sad how low people will sink to have a status symbol they can't afford, even to go as far as buying a fake/counterfeit item.


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## iyeoh

robdamanii said:


> Really, you and I share much the same opinion. I have no problem if people want to risk purchasing this junk and kill themselves while riding it. I can't stop that, and I really don't care. The thing I care very much about are the misguided, brainwashed fanboys of these things, claiming that they are exactly the same quality as the real thing. I've seen it over and over on these forums, I've seen it on other forums, and it never ceases to amaze me how easily people are willing to believe whatever they need to believe in order to justify their choice.
> 
> And god forbid you ask for proof of their claims (that these are really untagged models going out the back door of the factory) they'll burst a hemorrhoid and scream and yell that they are right, despite any proof to the contrary or lack of supporting evidence.
> 
> It's sad really. It's sad how low people will sink to have a status symbol they can't afford, even to go as far as buying a fake/counterfeit item.


And Sir, I am fully delighted that we agree completely after all!


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## config

Wow - I love cycling and everything but I never heard a bike being a "status symbol". One of the reasons I love it because it is the most efficient means of transportation. It's simple and 90+% of it is up to the rider - the engine. The bike is simply a tool. Who cares if a rider is on a one-of-a-kind, $20K 'name your brand' bike? If he gets dropped by another rider on a 45-lb Huffy, who do you think gets my respect? That name brand bike will not guarantee any wins or races.

It's like you're comparing owning a Colnago to a Ferrari. Almost anyone can afford a Colnago if they REALLY wanted one. It certainly doesn't command respect like owning a Fazioli piano. Now that commands respect, IMHO.


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## Salsa_Lover

I had a '57 Gibson ES-175, I couldn't play like Joe Pass, but I had a hell of a pleasure of playing it. just sayin'


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## vladvm

Salsa_Lover said:


> I had a '57 Gibson ES-175, I couldn't play like Joe Pass, but I had a hell of a pleasure of playing it. just sayin'


I love that guitar!


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## vladvm

someone from a chinese forum bought one and built it up :thumbsup:


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## mrbubbles

vladvm said:


> someone from a chinese forum bought one and built it up :thumbsup:


For real?


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## icsloppl

mrbubbles said:


> For real?


It looks like the real fake. :thumbsup: 

But it could be a fake fake. :cryin:


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## iyeoh

The seatpost and headset are not OEM Colnago and right away from afar, it already looks like a fake without even looking closer.


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## mrbubbles

iyeoh said:


> The seatpost and headset are not OEM Colnago and right away from afar, it already looks like a fake without even looking closer.


You seem pretty confident that it isn't real. 

Well, feast your eyes. It's this guy's bike. Do pay extra attention to the time stamp.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=67169
http://nijzeke.pinkbike.com/album/mypics/

Whoops.


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## Salsa_Lover

LOL

It was a trap !


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## mrbubbles

Salsa_Lover said:


> LOL
> 
> It was a trap !


Duh, the snow on the ground, the emoticon thumbsup, and the hosting link for the photo should've given some people a clue vladm wasn't serious.

Anyone else pretending they can tell difference the between real and fake?


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## iyeoh

mrbubbles said:


> You seem pretty confident that it isn't real.
> 
> Well, feast your eyes. It's this guy's bike. Do pay extra attention to the time stamp.
> 
> http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=67169
> http://nijzeke.pinkbike.com/album/mypics/
> 
> Whoops.


Dude I said the seatpost is not Colnago branded. I was wrong about the headset viewing on my phone. My inclination that any Colnago without a factory seatpost is suspect because the sucker comes free with the frame

I didn't look carefully and I have no such inclinations. 

However, bring a fake in front of my eyes and for me to touch and I can assure you right away that a fake looks like a fake. All the fakes I have ever seen suck


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## mrbubbles

iyeoh said:


> Dude I said the seatpost is not Colnago branded. I was wrong about the headset viewing on my phone. My inclination that any Colnago without a factory seatpost is suspect because the sucker comes free with the frame


That is the factory seatpost for the MTBK color, though. Please see the following.

https://www.racycles.com/product.aspx?catid=2,430,597&pid=5251
https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii156/johneroberts/DSC04913.jpg
https://www.thewashingmachinepost.net/colnago/graphx_2/EPS-MTBK.jpg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/italian_bicycles-e-bay/5577555652/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/italian_bicycles-e-bay/5397799511/

Whoops again.



iyeoh said:


> I didn't look carefully and I have no such inclinations.
> 
> However, bring a fake in front of my eyes and for me to touch and I can assure you right away that a fake looks like a fake. All the fakes I have ever seen suck


Yeah, and if someone told you the real one is a fake and the fake one is real, you'd believe them. Ever heard of "blind test"? It was just done on you.


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## fab4

iyeoh said:


> Here....
> 
> CyclingYong delivers a Chinarello Dogma 60.1 to an apparently very happy roadbikereview forum member.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=3305270&postcount=3
> 
> Look at the craftsmanship and tell me that it even comes close to a genuine high end Italian bike.
> 
> Of course, my favorite ever. This one belongs in a museum.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=3267404&postcount=5


Well I'm glad you liked my "Dogpoo".


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## Spursrider

fab4 said:


> Well I'm glad you liked my "Dogpoo".


fab4, your "Dogpoo" is a classic in every sense :thumbsup:


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## fab4

Spursrider said:


> fab4, your "Dogpoo" is a classic in every sense :thumbsup:


Thanks. I put the decals in jest. I ended up building it as a singlespeed commuter. It's definitely a looker in my neck of the woods.


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## iyeoh

mrbubbles said:


> Yeah, and if someone told you the real one is a fake and the fake one is real, you'd believe them. Ever heard of "blind test"? It was just done on you.


Sir, ok I admit I was wrong on both counts. Its no excuse but its hard to visually see pics on a cell phone at work. 

Anyway, a double blind test for a bicycle is to ride the bicycle. In this case, I'm telling you that I wouldn't even need to ride the bikes to know. Just physically feel them with my hands. Many years ago, a double blind test was done on steel by a popular magazine. It was funny because the lowest end steel frame was preferred by far over the expensive highest end steel frame.


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## config

fab4 said:


> Thanks. I put the decals in jest. I ended up building it as a singlespeed commuter. It's definitely a looker in my neck of the woods.


Nice bike, but I could tell even from the picture that this is a fake ;-)


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## spookyload

Salsa_Lover said:


> LOL
> 
> It was a trap !


Love it. Anyone else an expert.


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## nicensleazy

An interesting topic as always on this great forum. Why would anyone wish to purchase a fake frame is beyond me. Health and safety springs to mind.....but they haven't been crash tested etc. But as we have seen throughout the world people fake everything from frames to heart medication. Personally, if you are going to buy a frame, go to an authorised dealer or if buying used, know the history. I remember some years ago in the UK....a gut bought a fake porsche, it was called a 'cut and shunt' its nothing new. Two parts of a vehivle which have been wielded together. Then, filled and sprayed. The guy in question took the vehicle down a motorway at speed and the vehicle split, killling the driver and passenger. So, the guy payed the ultimate price!


----------



## wevergo

[=iyeoh]Sir, ok I admit I was wrong on both counts. Its no excuse but its hard to visually see pics on a cell phone at work. 

QUOTE:

why it is so hard to admit you can't see the difference. mr. Expert???:frown2:


----------



## robdamanii

Great...another guy proud of ripping off legitimate companies.

Sad...


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> Great...another guy proud of ripping off legitimate companies.
> 
> Sad...


This is sad? :

See these frames.
Which OEM frame is fake? : Somec, Ribble, De Rosa, Swift, PedalForce, Stradalli, Gryphon, Orka, Expert the unbranded...........
They are all from the same factory including the* very expensive De Rosa*.
Are we deceived? 
Made in CHINA by XPACE.
You can buy the frame yourself: *$200-$500 maximum* from several trading compagnies..
Discount for multiple copies.
It is framenumberTP-R*838*
The ISP version same price.

_.......'The Swift Carbon *R838* ISP is the best bike I’ve ridden..........'_
Former top Olympic distance pro triathlete (top American; 6th in the world) in the 90s. One of the original 4 members of Sonic Boom Racing in 2005, Nate now competes with the Elite P/1/2 squad, while specializing in hill climbs and stage 

https://sonicboomracing.com/2011/05/product-review-swift-carbon-r838-isp.html


It is an so called 'open-mold' frame.
Everybody can buy the frame also on the internet.
Framenumber/code: *838*
It is even on the frames: 
Swift modulus *838*
De Rosa R*838*



https://topridecomp.en.alibaba.com/product/328091417-209696092/TP_R808S_Carbon_bike_frame.html


----------



## robdamanii

If you REALLY believe these are OEM frames, then there's nothing I can say to help you. Your delusion that you just scammed the system and bought a Pinarello at factory cost will carry you through just fine.

However, you need to stop spreading the misconception that these are the same as name brand frames. When you can prove the layup, materials, construction and quality control are all the same, then you're free to praise it all you want. Until then, stop telling people that counterfeit frames are the same as their name brand counterparts.


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> Dream on :thumbsup:


It's funny that someone buying a counterfeit bike and pretending that it's the same as a name brand is telling ME to dream on.

Thanks for the laugh. Enjoy your fake junk.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> If you REALLY believe these are OEM frames, then there's nothing I can say to help you. Your delusion that you just scammed the system and bought a Pinarello at factory cost will carry you through just fine.
> 
> However, you need to stop spreading the misconception that these are the same as name brand frames. When you can prove the layup, materials, construction and quality control are all the same, then you're free to praise it all you want. Until then, stop telling people that counterfeit frames are the same as their name brand counterparts.



I don't mean my fake Pinarello Dogma, thats another story. I didn's say a fake Pina is the same as an original.


These are all the same frames, same carbon layup etc. : *Somec, Ribble, De Ro**sa and the unbranded framenumber TP-R808.*
Do your research. These frames are for sure OEM!!! They also make the frames for some brandnames ass well.
What misconception???

btw: 
who scammed the system? The manufacturers themselves are selling directly to the customers actualy.
How can you blame the buyers ore me? People discover you can have the same product cheaper and customize it yourself.
The manufcturers themselves began with the internet sales. It's legal.


----------



## jjp

Wow! That's quite a thread! For a moment there I thought that I was over on thegearpage.com (a musician's forum). I`meally glad that I don't have to worry about any of this, as I have a 2005 Master, and I just bought a NOS C40, which is undoubtably made in Italy, all of it, lugs, tubes and BB shell. Whew, that was $2700 well spent!


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> I don't mean my fake Pinarello Dogma, thats another story. I didn's say a fake Pina is the same as an original.
> 
> 
> These are all the same frames, same carbon layup etc. : *Somec, Ribble, De Ro**sa and the unbranded framenumber TP-R808.*
> Do your research. These frames are for sure OEM!!! They also make the frames for some brandnames ass well.
> What misconception???
> 
> btw:
> who scammed the system? The manufacturers themselves are selling directly to the customers actualy.
> How can you blame the buyers ore me? People discover you can have the same product cheaper and customize it yourself.
> The manufcturers themselves began with the internet sales. It's legal.


Buying counterfeit merchandise is not legal. End of story. Justify it all you want, but you're wrong.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> Buying counterfeit merchandise is not legal. End of story. Justify it all you want, but you're wrong.


This will interest you:

Here is my clone.
I notice no difference with my highend carbon bikes.
They are all Chinarellos/Pinarellos/Cervélos, Meridas, Scotts ore whatever made in China/Taiwan.
Someone said:'There's no "Italian" Pinarello. They're all Chinarellos.'
And of course there is a difference in carbon but it is only the weight and the structure/layup.
The difference is a few hundreds of grams, negligible for cycletourists.
That does not mean a asymmetrical Pinarello Dogma with nano technology, as Merida, is bad but it is not Italian at all. Very misleading.
Italian heritage, Italian tradition, Italian craftsmanship etc. it's also FAKE.









Fausto Pinarello himself in an interview on Italian Cycling PRO magazine said all their frames are made in China.

Another article:

.....All Pinarellos are made in Taiwan in Taichung.....Why is this important? It’s important for pricing. Any frame made in the US and Europe can have a premium price attached to it. Frames that aren’t can’t breach a certain logical price limit. Obviously this isn’t true for every manufacturer, especially for some who don’t want you to find out that your bike was made in Asia, like the Prince by Pinarello......."

For example: when you by a Pinarello FP3, FP5 ore FP7 and more models there is a sticker on it: 'Made in Taiwan'.
Made in Taichung just like many other Chinarellos and unbranded frames.
The made in Taiwan sticker will mysteriously disappear before it leaves 99% of Bike shops. Very misleading.


















Interview Elviento, who works in the Italian 'factory':

'None of Pinarello's frames are actually "made" in Italy but all are made by a Chinese manufacturer who, by the way, subcontracts out the lower to medium range models to sattlelite factories that makes also the unbranded frames. So indeed, all the Pinarello's on the road, including my Prince, are actually made by these regular workers in China. The decals may have been applied by the passionate workers you were referring to, that's all. 
The craftsman era is no longer really here any more.'


Read this url:

https://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/fatta-da-pinarello-but-made-intaiwan.html
https://range.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/oem-carbon-fiber-bike-frame/

Here the frames are made (in Taiwan):

Carbotec Industrial Co., LTD

Their Taiwan office in Taichung:

No. 41, Kung 2nd Rd, Youth Industrial Park, Tachia Township,

43769 Taichung County, Taiwan ROC

Tel: 886-4-26815316 Fax: 886-4-26815326


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> This will interest you:
> 
> Here is my clone.
> I notice no difference with my highend carbon bikes.
> They are all Chinarellos/Pinarellos/Cervélos, Meridas, Scotts ore whatever made in China/Taiwan.
> Someone said:'There's no "Italian" Pinarello. They're all Chinarellos.'
> And of course there is a difference in carbon but it is only the weight and the structure/layup.
> The difference is a few hundreds of grams, negligible for cycletourists.
> That does not mean a asymmetrical Pinarello Dogma with nano technology, as Merida, is bad but it is not Italian at all. Very misleading.
> Italian heritage, Italian tradition, Italian craftsmanship etc. it's also FAKE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fausto Pinarello himself in an interview on Italian Cycling PRO magazine said all their frames are made in China.
> 
> Another article:
> 
> .....All Pinarellos are made in Taiwan in Taichung.....Why is this important? It’s important for pricing. Any frame made in the US and Europe can have a premium price attached to it. Frames that aren’t can’t breach a certain logical price limit. Obviously this isn’t true for every manufacturer, especially for some who don’t want you to find out that your bike was made in Asia, like the Prince by Pinarello......."
> 
> For example: when you by a Pinarello FP3, FP5 ore FP7 and more models there is a sticker on it: 'Made in Taiwan'.
> Made in Taichung just like many other Chinarellos and unbranded frames.
> The made in Taiwan sticker will mysteriously disappear before it leaves 99% of Bike shops. Very misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interview Elviento, who works in the Italian 'factory':
> 
> 'None of Pinarello's frames are actually "made" in Italy but all are made by a Chinese manufacturer who, by the way, subcontracts out the lower to medium range models to sattlelite factories that makes also the unbranded frames. So indeed, all the Pinarello's on the road, including my Prince, are actually made by these regular workers in China. The decals may have been applied by the passionate workers you were referring to, that's all.
> The craftsman era is no longer really here any more.'
> 
> 
> Read this url:
> 
> https://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/fatta-da-pinarello-but-made-intaiwan.html
> https://range.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/oem-carbon-fiber-bike-frame/
> 
> Here the frames are made (in Taiwan):
> 
> Carbotec Industrial Co., LTD
> 
> Their Taiwan office in Taichung:
> 
> No. 41, Kung 2nd Rd, Youth Industrial Park, Tachia Township,
> 
> 43769 Taichung County, Taiwan ROC
> 
> Tel: 886-4-26815316 Fax: 886-4-26815326


If you'd bother to read any of my previous rants on this, there is a big difference between taiwan and china. I KNOW these are made in Taiwan, I've said it many times. That is why I specifically researched and bought my road machine from a company that has some form of craftsmanship and doesn't build in china/taiwan, but that's another thread. 

Who ever said cyclotourists entered this equation? They should be riding steel, not rip-off carbon.

As for these bare frames, they are not OEM frames coming out the back door of the factory, they're stolen designs that are (very likely) poorly manufactured copies of popular designs, sold direct to mutton heads who think they're getting the real thing. I'm sorry to tell you, you get what you pay for, in cycling as much as anything.

There's no justifying counterfeiting, period. If you're unable to afford a pinarello, don't buy one. Buy something cheaper. You don't NEED a Dogma to go on the weekly C group club ride, but boy, I'll be it sure is cool to have one, right? If you have the money to buy one, grow a pair, buy the real thing, and support those who put their hard work into building that brand and that image.

If you don't care about that, then that's your moral issue to live with. And if you can live with that, there's no point in attempting to change your backwards view of things. But saying "they're all made in china, so I'm buying from china so I don't have to pay a company to make it look pretty" is NOT any decent justification.


----------



## wevergo

dubble


----------



## wevergo

See these frames.
Which frame is fake? : Somec, Ribble, De Rosa, the unbranded...........
They are all from the same factory including the very expensive De Rosa.
Are we deceived? This is sad!!!
You can buy the frame yourself: $200-$500 maximum from several providers.
Discount for multiple copies.
It is framenumberTP-R808
The ISP version same price.



> All these ODM frames are used by many providers.
> There are too many examples of this phenomenon.
> They buy a large amount of frames sell it under there own brandname, even De Rosa, Cube, Wilier, Sensa, Viper, Ideal, etc, etc. (!)
> So they "steel' it and present it as there pravite label. (I am not talking about Pinarello.)
> They did not design ore put any research in it, it is an open mold frame offered by a manufacturer who invested in the mold.
> As a private individual I can also buy the same frame on the internetshop.
> This is the reality.


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> See these frames.
> Which frame is fake? : Somec, Ribble, De Rosa, the unbranded...........
> They are all from the same factory including the very expensive De Rosa.
> Are we deceived? This is sad!!!
> You can buy the frame yourself: $200-$500 maximum from several providers.
> Discount for multiple copies.
> It is framenumberTP-R808
> The ISP version same price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All these OEM frames are used by many providers.
> There are many examples of this phenomenon.
> They buy a large amount of frames sell it under there own brandname, even De Rosa, Cube, Wilier, Sensa, Viper, etc, etc. (!)
> So they "steel' it and present it as there pravite label.
> They did not design ore put any research in it, it is an open mold frame offered by a manufacturer who invested in the mold.
> As a private individual I can also buy the same frame on the internetshop.
> This is the reality.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they invested in the mold, which is then CLOSED to outside sales. So buying an unbranded frame is stealing from those who paid to close the mold. Get it?
Click to expand...


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> wevergo said:
> 
> 
> 
> See these frames.
> Which frame is fake? : Somec, Ribble, De Rosa, the unbranded...........
> They are all from the same factory including the very expensive De Rosa.
> Are we deceived? This is sad!!!
> You can buy the frame yourself: $200-$500 maximum from several providers.
> Discount for multiple copies.
> It is framenumberTP-R808
> The ISP version same price.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they invested in the mold, which is then CLOSED to outside sales. So buying an unbranded frame is stealing from those who paid to close the mold. Get it?
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong, look at the multitude of examples
> I worked in the cycling industry don't tell me nonsense.
> For example:
> The price of a replacement carbon Cube frame is €150,- = $222,-.
> It's less the price I pay for the same frame at the manufacturers site.
> Get it?
Click to expand...


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> robdamanii said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong, look at the multitude of examples
> I worked in the cycling industry don't tell me nonsense.
> For example:
> The price of a replacement carbon Cube frame is €150,- = $222,-.
> It's less the price I pay for the same frame at the manufacturers site.
> Get it?
> 
> 
> 
> There are no multitude of examples.
> 
> Buying a closed mold frame, not from the manufacturer who closed it, is stealing.
> 
> You're a criminal then. How do you feel about that?
Click to expand...


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> wevergo said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are no multitude of examples.
> 
> Buying a closed mold frame, not from the manufacturer who closed it, is stealing.
> 
> You're a criminal then. How do you feel about that?
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything about the bicycle industry:thumbsup:
> Just ignore the facts, boy.
> Can't you read my contribution: it's about open molds.
> It's completely legal, many manufacturers sell their carbon frames, carbon wheels and parts this way in Europe.
> You're not really aware whats happening today in bicycle industry, do you?
> 
> _You're a criminal then. How do you feel about that?_
> 
> 
> 
> :
> So there are thousands/millions of criminals on there bicycles.:crazy:
> Who steals from whom?
> _
> "Who ever said cyclotourists entered this equation? They should be riding steel, not rip-off carbon.":_
> 
> 
> 
> :
> Are you living in the Middle Ages?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> robdamanii said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything about the bicycle industry:thumbsup:
> Just ignore the facts, boy.
> Can't you read my contribution: it's about open molds.
> It's completely legal, many manufacturers sell their carbon frames, carbon wheels and parts this way in Europe.
> You're not really aware whats happening today in bicycle industry, do you?
> 
> _You're a criminal then. How do you feel about that?_
> 
> 
> 
> :
> So there are thousands/millions of criminals on there bicycles.:crazy:
> Who steals from whom?
> _
> "Who ever said cyclotourists entered this equation? They should be riding steel, not rip-off carbon.":_
> 
> 
> 
> :
> Are you living in the Middle Ages?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I live in a world where morals mean more than saving a buck, and where I choose to reward people who spend the money and time building their brand, not buying cheap rip off junk from the far east. I get immense satisfaction in buying the real thing, versus pretending that I have more money/status than I do.
> 
> I will not debate the value of steel vs carbon fiber for cyclo touring, loaded touring, etc etc. Frankly, I will not debate with you the idea that everyone should be able to ride carbon fiber frames, from entry level price point and up. That's completely another thread.
> 
> How do you feel about orange jumpsuits? You'd look pretty good in one of them on your counterfeit chinese carbon. Meanwhile, I'll keep chuckling at your pathetic attempts to justify your moral bankruptcy. You're proving to be quite the entertaining little angry firecracker.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> wevergo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> robdamanii said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything about the bicycle industry:thumbsup:
> Just ignore the facts, boy.
> Can't you read my contribution: it's about open molds.
> It's completely legal, many manufacturers sell their carbon frames, carbon wheels and parts this way in Europe.
> You're not really aware whats happening today in bicycle industry, do you?
> 
> _You're a criminal then. How do you feel about that?_
> 
> 
> 
> :
> So there are thousands/millions of criminals on there bicycles.:crazy:
> Who steals from whom?
> _
> "Who ever said cyclotourists entered this equation? They should be riding steel, not rip-off carbon.":_
> 
> 
> Nope, I live in a world where morals mean more than saving a buck, and where I choose to reward people who spend the money and time building their brand, not buying cheap rip off junk from the far east. I get immense satisfaction in buying the real thing, versus pretending that I have more money/status than I do.
> 
> I will not debate the value of steel vs carbon fiber for cyclo touring, loaded touring, etc etc. Frankly, I will not debate with you the idea that everyone should be able to ride carbon fiber frames, from entry level price point and up. That's completely another thread.
> 
> How do you feel about orange jumpsuits? You'd look pretty good in one of them on your counterfeit chinese carbon. Meanwhile, I'll keep chuckling at your pathetic attempts to justify your moral bankruptcy. You're proving to be quite the entertaining little angry firecracker.
> 
> 
> 
> You condemn legitimate normal trading, approved by our government.
> Whats wrong with you?
> I'am not discussing anymore because I think you can not think clearly.
> Have a nice trip on your metal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> robdamanii said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wevergo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> robdamanii said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything about the bicycle industry:thumbsup:
> Just ignore the facts, boy.
> Can't you read my contribution: it's about open molds.
> It's completely legal, many manufacturers sell their carbon frames, carbon wheels and parts this way in Europe.
> You're not really aware whats happening today in bicycle industry, do you?
> 
> _You're a criminal then. How do you feel about that?_
> 
> 
> You condemn legitimate normal trading, approved by our government.
> Whats wrong with you?
> I'am not discussing anymore because I think you can not think clearly.
> Have a nice trip on your metal.
> 
> 
> 
> Although I don't ride metal, at least I ride a legitimate, honestly purchased bike, unlike those among us who ride counterfeit junk.
> 
> Too bad you can't continue to defend counterfeiting. At least you've learned that there's no justification for it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Cinelli 82220

wevergo said:


> same carbon layup


That is a stupid thing to say. You have no idea what the layup is.
Explain how you know what the layup of a bike is by looking at a picture of it on the internet.

As for the legality, you are completely wrong. When a company outsources manufacturing of a propduct-not just bicycles but anything, DVDs, refrigerators, whatever, they company doing the manufacturing agrees not to sell the design to other parties. That is common business practice. If the manufacturer was really supplying De Rosa and Somec, and backdooring the same frames directly to consumers, he would be sued by De Rosa and Somec promptly.
As you point out, Pinas are or were made by CarbonTec. If they were backdooring to retail customers and it was legal, why would they not do it under their own name? 
I very much doubt your claim of inside knowledge on this subject.
$200 would not buy enough high quality material to make a front triangle. Some CF costs more than that per square meter. We have a laser machine that cuts pieces for layup so not even a millimeter is wasted, the machine cost a few million itself but paid for itself through reduced waste.

By the way, the De Rosa shown is an entry level model. You can go to the De Rosa factory and see the real ones made, right there, in Italy.


----------



## mrbubbles

robdamanii said:


> Buying a closed mold frame, not from the manufacturer who closed it, is stealing.
> 
> You're a criminal then.


Stealing? Is there a law written somewhere that says it's theft?


----------



## wevergo

Cinelli 82220 said:


> That is a stupid thing to say. You have no idea what the layup is.
> Explain how you know what the layup of a bike is by looking at a picture of it on the internet.
> 
> As for the legality, you are completely wrong. When a company outsources manufacturing of a propduct-not just bicycles but anything, DVDs, refrigerators, whatever, they company doing the manufacturing agrees not to sell the design to other parties. That is common business practice. If the manufacturer was really supplying De Rosa and Somec, and backdooring the same frames directly to consumers, he would be sued by De Rosa and Somec promptly.
> As you point out, Pinas are or were made by CarbonTec. If they were backdooring to retail customers and it was legal, why would they not do it under their own name?
> I very much doubt your claim of inside knowledge on this subject.
> $200 would not buy enough high quality material to make a front triangle. Some CF costs more than that per square meter. We have a laser machine that cuts pieces for layup so not even a millimeter is wasted, the machine cost a few million itself but paid for itself through reduced waste.
> 
> By the way, the De Rosa shown is an entry level model. You can go to the De Rosa factory and see the real ones made, right there, in Italy.


_'By the way, the De Rosa shown is an entry level model. You can go to the De Rosa factory and see the real ones made, right there, in Italy.'_
Yes, and this entry model De Rosa for the U.K. is made in China, the same frame you can by yourself unpainted from the same manufacturer. 
The manufacturer designed and investted in the mold themselves and put it in the market. 
Somec. The Rosa, Ribble and others buy and relable it and they sell under their own brandnamename. 
The layup/carbon is from Mizuno, they deliver to many carbon framemanufacturers.
Do your research, Mr.Cinelli82220:thumbsup: 

_'You can go to the De Rosa factory and see the real ones made, right there, in Italy.'_
I am sorry for you mate, for exaple the De Rosa 848 ore Vega is made in China by XPACE INDUSTRIAL LTD, CHINA.
Dream your Italian dream, Mr. Cinelli82220:thumbsup: 

btw: the fake Pinarellos have not the same mold and come from other manufacturers, everybody knows that, don't tell me. I did not say they are the same and made also by Carbotec and going backdoors.
You are twisting my words, Mr. Cinelli82220:thumbsup: 

The replacement Cube frame was given to me by my bikeshop , he showed me the papers and price from the German provider/manufacturer.
Why do you say I am wrong, Mr.Cinelli 82220 can you explain?
_'I very much doubt your claim of inside knowledge on this subject'._:thumbsup: 


@robdamanii: 
when you wear a copy/replica Garmin jersey you steel and you are a criminal!
How do you feel about that?_ (your own words)_, Mr.Hypocrite.:thumbsup:


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> Yes, and this entry model De Rosa for the U.K. is made in China, the same frame you can by yourself unpainted from the same manufacturer.
> The manufacturer designed and investted in the mold themselves and put it in the market.
> Somec. The Rosa, Ribble and others buy and relable it and they sell under their own brandnamename.
> The layup/carbon is from Mizuno, they deliver to many carbon framemanufacturers.
> Do your research, I still say.:thumbsup:
> 
> _'You can go to the De Rosa factory and see the real ones made, right there, in Italy.'_
> I am sorry for you mate, for exaple the De Rosa 848 ore Vega is made in China by XPACE INDUSTRIAL LTD, CHINA.
> Dream your Italian dream, Mr. Cinelli82220:thumbsup:
> 
> btw: the fake Pinarellos have not the same mold and come from other manufacturers, everybody knows that, don't tell me. I did not say they are the same and made also by Carbotec and going backdoors.
> You are twisting my words!!!:thumbsup:
> 
> The replacement Cube frame was given to me by my brothers bikeshop , he showed me the papers and price from the German provider/manufacturer.
> Why do you say I am wrong, Mr.Cinelli 82220 can you explain?
> _'I very much doubt your claim of inside knowledge on this subject'._:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> @robdamanii:
> when you wear a copy/replica Garmin jersey you steel and you are a criminal!
> How do you feel about that?_ (your own words)_, Mr.Hypocrite.:thumbsup:


Since I don't wear counterfeit jerseys, I don't steal from the people who came up with the trouble to design them.

Try again, Mr. Moral Failure.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> Since I don't wear counterfeit jerseys, I don't steal from the people who came up with the trouble to design them.
> 
> Try again, Mr. Moral Failure.


Haha, you do for sure, see your pics.......:thumbsup: 
Don't lie to me.


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> Haha, you do for sure, see your pics.......:thumbsup:
> Don't lie to me.


Why don't you go ahead and point out which photo I'm wearing a counterfeit jersey? I'd love to see this...


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> Why don't you go ahead and point out which photo I'm wearing a counterfeit jersey? I'd love to see this...


haha, you know what I mean mate.........:blush2:


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> haha, you know what I mean mate.........:blush2:


No, actually I don't. Obviously you don't have any proof, just like all the rest of your claims.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> No, actually I don't. Obviously you don't have any proof, just like all the rest of your claims.


Of course I have no proofs just like all the rest of my claims:thumbsup: 
Oke, but no excuses ore fakestorys that it is not you ( and Beth)!!!!!
Do you want me to go on?

_'Since I don't wear counterfeit jerseys, I don't steal from the people who came up with the trouble to design them'.
__'Why don't you go ahead and point out which photo I'm wearing a counterfeit jersey? I'd love to see this..'._
Her you are.
Dont lie.









_.....'Example: I was gifted a TDF climbers jersey and a Giro Maglia Rosa. Bad form to wear either one out on a solo ride, or even worse, a group ride?......It's not that I have a problem wearing either (in fact, I've worn both)' .........._
https://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=132290


I removed pictures below to protect privacy:


Pearl Izumi 2009/10 Men’s Garmin/Slipstream Short Sleeve Cycling Jersey – *Garmin Irish Champ Replica – CM002-8XG*


----------



## robdamanii

Amazing...

For someone who is such an awesome force in the bike industry, you're completely clueless as to what is real or fake.

I would assume you know of that little guy from Ireland, by the name of Dan Martin? Remember, he was the guy who won the Irish National Championship in 2009. I'll even attach a photo for you below just so you know who I'm talking about.

I would assume someone so well versed in cycling would also know that Pearl Izumi made a run of jerseys commemorating his national championship? Well, they did. Info here: http://bicyclinghub.blogspot.com/2009/01/2009-garmin-jersey-preview.html Or you can check page 2 of ROAD right here: http://www.zipp.com/_media/productreviews/Road 303.pdf And one more time: http://www.bigedeal.com/garmin-irish-jersey/

Oh, I get it, you're trying to be silly and claim that because it says "replica" that it's a rip off? Ahh, so you're really that clueless are you? It does indeed replicate the Irish Champions jersey, that's true. However it was produced only by Pearl Izumi. In fact, I can expressly remember purchasing it at the Pearl Izumi factory store in North Conway NH back when it came out.

In short: try again, Albert. And next time, make sure you actually get your facts straight. Although with your track record on counterfeit frames and the like, I'd expect nothing less from you than utter failure.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> Amazing...
> 
> For someone who is such an awesome force in the bike industry, you're completely clueless as to what is real or fake.
> 
> I would assume you know of that little guy from Ireland, by the name of Dan Martin? Remember, he was the guy who won the Irish National Championship in 2009. I'll even attach a photo for you below just so you know who I'm talking about.
> 
> I would assume someone so well versed in cycling would also know that Pearl Izumi made a run of jerseys commemorating his national championship? Well, they did. Info here: http://bicyclinghub.blogspot.com/2009/01/2009-garmin-jersey-preview.html Or you can check page 2 of ROAD right here: http://www.zipp.com/_media/productreviews/Road 303.pdf And one more time: http://www.bigedeal.com/garmin-irish-jersey/
> 
> Oh, I get it, you're trying to be silly and claim that because it says "replica" that it's a rip off? Ahh, so you're really that clueless are you? It does indeed replicate the Irish Champions jersey, that's true. However it was produced only by Pearl Izumi. In fact, I can expressly remember purchasing it at the Pearl Izumi factory store in North Conway NH back when it came out.
> 
> In short: try again, Albert. And next time, make sure you actually get your facts straight. Although with your track record on counterfeit frames and the like, I'd expect nothing less from you than utter failure.


I am not impressed you said: _'Since I don't wear counterfeit jerseys, I don't steal from the people who came up with the trouble to design them'._
You make yourself ridiculous not accepting the (not mine) facts about what is happening in bicycle industry. 
You are an outsider, dont know anything about it.
It is a waste of time communicating with you.
Cheers.


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> I am not impressed you said: _'Since I don't wear counterfeit jerseys, I don't steal from the people who came up with the trouble to design them'._


You DO know that Pearl Izumi was designing and supplying Garmin with clothing in 2009, right? So they have every right to produce something that they're supplying to the team, just like standard team kits? So purchasing from Pearl Izumi was actually rewarding them for producing an appealing design? Of course you knew that, silly me, Mr. Industry Insider...

I'm sure you're not impressed. Most people aren't impressed when they're proven to be wrong, as well as incapable of doing basic research. Oh wait, I forgot. You're a big player in the bike industry, so you already know everything there is to know, right?

Keep up the good work, I see you've also been busy trolling up boards.ie, getting threads closed, with comments like this by mods:



> Mod Note
> After reviewing this thread I've decided to lock it.
> 
> Boards rules forbid the discussion/advocacy of illegal activities. Unfortunately, a lot of this thread went down the path of promoting counterfeit frames. Hence the decision to lock the thread.
> 
> I should clarify a few points:
> The issue is not unbranded frames from China or elsewhere in Asia,
> Nor is it unbranded frames that are bought and branded by some bike companies,
> It is about counterfeit frames, i.e. frames manufactured and painted to look like another company's products.
> 
> Thanks. My apologies to anyone who wished to continue the discussion.


Amazing you can manage to screw things up everywhere you post. Don't you get the hint that the only common denominator in every failed thread is you?

I'm guessing logic isn't your strong point.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> You DO know that Pearl Izumi was designing and supplying Garmin with clothing in 2009, right? So they have every right to produce something that they're supplying to the team, just like standard team kits? So purchasing from Pearl Izumi was actually rewarding them for producing an appealing design? Of course you knew that, silly me, Mr. Industry Insider...
> 
> I'm sure you're not impressed. Most people aren't impressed when they're proven to be wrong, as well as incapable of doing basic research. Oh wait, I forgot. You're a big player in the bike industry, so you already know everything there is to know, right?
> 
> Keep up the good work, I see you've also been busy trolling up boards.ie, getting threads closed, with comments like this by mods:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing you can manage to screw things up everywhere you post. Don't you get the hint that the only common denominator in every failed thread is you?
> 
> I'm guessing logic isn't your strong point.


haha, keep trying to make yourself credible:thumbsup: 
So do ignore also this link as a fact, just ignore......

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-de-rosa-model-for-2011-r848-or-vega.html


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> haha, keep trying to make yourself credible:thumbsup:
> So do ignore also this link as a fact, just ignore......
> 
> http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-de-rosa-model-for-2011-r848-or-vega.html


A hell of a lot more credible than you, Albert. I'm not the one claiming to have insider knowledge of the cycling industry. 

Hell, at least I'm not buying or advocating buying counterfeit merchandise.

Your link shows nothing, other than the well known fact that many frames are made in Asia. Your assertion that they are all OEM frames of high end name brands is STILL false, and buying a counterfeit frame is STILL wrong, no matter what your fairy godmother told you.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> A hell of a lot more credible than you, Albert. I'm not the one claiming to have insider knowledge of the cycling industry.
> 
> Hell, at least I'm not buying or advocating buying counterfeit merchandise.
> 
> Your link shows nothing, other than the well known fact that many frames are made in Asia. Your assertion that they are all OEM frames of high end name brands is STILL false, and buying a counterfeit frame is STILL wrong, no matter what your fairy godmother told you.


Haha , you see, ignore all facts, go one that way!

Another fact: some Colnago's are made in Taiwan, for exaple the CLX.
Bianchis for the U.S. market are made in Taiwan.

Also Cervélo, Argon18, Time, Pinarello, Look, Wilier Mortirolo and many other brands make there frames in China, Taiwan, Romania, or Morocco

My advise to you : ignore it, deny it and abuse me, thats more convincing than facts:thumbsup:


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> Haha , you see, ignore all facts, go one that way!
> 
> Another fact: some Colnago's are made in Taiwan, for exaple the CLX.
> 
> My advise to you : ignore it, deny it and abuse me, thats more convincing than facts:thumbsup:


Again, you're proving nothing we didn't already know. Do yo understand that?

With the exception of some Look, Time, Cyfac, some BMC, some Colnago and some Trek models, the vast majority of frames are produced in Asia. I'm not arguing this.

YOU, however, believe that if some seller claims it's the same as a name brand, then it must be. And since you're gullible, you spread misinformation around hoping that others will be gullible and flock to your cause. You also seem to have no problem with sellers counterfeiting frames, nor do you have any problem buying them yourself. THAT, I have a problem with.

Sorry if it saddens you to know that you're wrong, again. Wow...how many times have told you that now?


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> Again, you're proving nothing we didn't already know. Do yo understand that?
> 
> With the exception of some Look, Time, Cyfac, some BMC, some Colnago and some Trek models, the vast majority of frames are produced in Asia. I'm not arguing this.
> 
> YOU, however, believe that if some seller claims it's the same as a name brand, then it must be. And since you're gullible, you spread misinformation around hoping that others will be gullible and flock to your cause. You also seem to have no problem with sellers counterfeiting frames, nor do you have any problem buying them yourself. THAT, I have a problem with.
> 
> Sorry if it saddens you to know that you're wrong, again. Wow...how many times have told you that now?


_, YOU, however, believe that if some seller claims it's the same as a name brand, then it must be, _
Tell me which seller and brand........


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> _, YOU, however, believe that if some seller claims it's the same as a name brand, then it must be, _
> Tell me which seller and brand........


Go back and look at your posts if your memory is that short.

You've only posted it on about 6 forums in the past few weeks.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> Go back and look at your posts if your memory is that short.
> 
> You've only posted it on about 6 forums in the past few weeks.


6 forums?, how bad, I am a criminal.
Dont mention your posts on Ridemonkey: 10,699 :blush2:


----------



## Ride-Fly

GAWD, what an eff'in pissing contest!!!!

Rod, I think the point wever is trying to make to you is that there are companies out there that make the frame and sell it to a "name" manufacturer like De Rosa who then paints it and sells it as its own, while fully admitting it is a "made in China/Taiwan" frame. They also sell their frames to others like Ribble, Somec, etc. This same manufacturer can and probably do sell their frames to individuals as a "unbranded" frames. Is this stealing or buying a fake? No. Not all situations are fakes as you seem to see it. 

Now I am sure there are tons of situations where molds are used illegitimately and copies of "real" made in China/Taiwan Pinarellos/DeRosas/Kuotas/Ridleys/Cervelos are made and sold using the marketing ploy of "factory direct". In these cases, you are right- the buyer has no idea what they are truly getting. They be of the same mold but without the QC, the fibers may be much lower grade, the resin may be 50% Elmers, etc. And it is illegal, immoral, disingenuous or what have you.


----------



## wevergo

Ride-Fly said:


> GAWD, what an eff'in pissing contest!!!!
> 
> Rod, I think the point wever is trying to make to you is that there are companies out there that make the frame and sell it to a "name" manufacturer like De Rosa who then paints it and sells it as its own, while fully admitting it is a "made in China/Taiwan" frame. They also sell their frames to others like Ribble, Somec, etc. This same manufacturer can and probably do sell their frames to individuals as a "unbranded" frames. Is this stealing or buying a fake? No. Not all situations are fakes as you seem to see it.
> 
> Now I am sure there are tons of situations where molds are used illegitimately and copies of "real" made in China/Taiwan Pinarellos/DeRosas/Kuotas/Ridleys/Cervelos are made and sold using the marketing ploy of "factory direct". In these cases, you are right- the buyer has no idea what they are truly getting. They be of the same mold but without the QC, the fibers may be much lower grade, the resin may be 50% Elmers, etc. And it is illegal, immoral, disingenuous or what have you.


Thats right Ride-Fly!!!:thumbsup: 
You know what you are talking about.
Hope robdamanii will finally realize this, but I don't think so.


----------



## Raymond8Pistons

I lived and worked in Taiwan for several years. I worked for an American company that subcontracted our production requirements to local Taiwanese suppliers. Our products required many molded parts in both plastic and aluminum. The U.S. company supplied the molds to the subcontractors for the start of production; after the first set of molds were worn out, we had local companies produce new tooling to our specifications and drawings. We had a very high standard for our products, and when we considered a tool no longer useful it was still in very good condition. Our first experience with fake products came when we sold our first batch of tools as scrap. The metal recycler found a customer who would pay more than a few cents a pound for scrap steel. That customer used our original tooling to make fake product that looked just the same as the real product. We learned to destroy our tooling when it reached the end of our requirements for useful life. Some of the people who had worked for our subcontractors at one time were the ones who bought the used tooling. They of course had detailed knowledge of how the product was built and tested. They did use cheaper grades of plastic and aluminum to lower the cost. We could tell the parts were fake but the consumers who bought the products could not tell until the products started to fail after a short period of time. 

It is conceivable that out of date or out of spec molds could be used by people attempting to make copies of high end frames. The manufacturers who build genuine frames for their customers are not likely to sell those same frames out the back door. If we ever found a subcontractor was supplying parts to someone else, he no longer had our business. The volume of real parts was much greater than the volume of fake parts.This is my experience working in Taiwan.


----------



## Sablotny

*This thread has totally degenerated*

but I still find the subject matter fascinating. There's the whole real/fake frames part, but also for me this amazing marketing game so many manufacturers are playing. Italian companies (and Canadian, and American, etc.) charge high prices for their "Italian passion and design" and then have their products built for them by Taiwanese and Chinese shops. How Italian is that? Doesn't take too long until these places figure out how to make their own frames and components, and then what - you get some of these amazing counterfeits. I believe Bianchi started having cheap frames built in Asia in the 70's, then painting them in Italy and calling them Italian. I just bought a Fuji SST and though it has a "Made in Taiwan" sticker on it, I'm hearing that its made in China and probably only painted in Taiwan. I've bought new Nalini clothes from China with "Made in Italy" tags hanging on them - were they fakes or is this how many companies conduct business? Hard to tell these days.


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> Thats right Ride-Fly!!!:thumbsup:
> You know what you are talking about.
> Hope robdamanii will finally realize this, but I don't think so.


I'll stop as soon as you realize your delusions that you've somehow scored a "name brand" frame out the back door of the factory is as absurd as a bunny with a pancake on its head.


----------



## wevergo

robdamanii said:


> I'll stop as soon as you realize your delusions that you've somehow scored a "name brand" frame out the back door of the factory is as absurd as a bunny with a pancake on its head.


This is absurd!
I have never told this in any contribution that you can get a brandname frame backdoors from a company. It goes frontdoors and completely legal.
You can get some frames as Somec, Cube, De Rosa, Bianchi etc etc. unbranded without the label/decals/naked if you want for example at the manufacturers internetshop like Denfu, Miracle, XPACE, etc etc..and many others.
Man, man, read my contributions and don not yel something.
This is realy stunning and sad.


----------



## robdamanii

wevergo said:


> This is absurd!
> I have never told this in any contribution that you can get a brandname frame backdoors from a company. It goes frontdoors and completely legal.
> You can get some frames as Somec, Cube, De Rosa, Bianchi etc etc. unbranded without the label/decals/naked if you want for example at the manufacturers internetshop like Denfu, Miracle, XPACE, etc etc..and many others.
> Man, man, read my contributions and don not yel something.
> This is realy stunning and sad.


You can claim whatever you want, but without proof that these are the same frames, your favorite chinese sellers are doing nothing but copying a frame design, manufacturing it cheaply and then selling it to gullible people like you who want to think they're getting a deal.

Sad. And even sadder that you're gullible enough to fall for it.


----------



## config

C'mon guys enough of the bashing. People buy different things, brands, etc. at a cost because they believe it is worth it. If they feel good about it after their purchase, then good for them. If they regretted it, then they most likely they won't be purchasing that in the future. No one has a right to tell anyone what/where he/she should be spending their hard- earned money. We all have a choice on what we buy - isn't that great?


----------



## shermes

config said:


> C'mon guys enough of the bashing. People buy different things, brands, etc. at a cost because they believe it is worth it. If they feel good about it after their purchase, then good for them. If they regretted it, then they most likely they won't be purchasing that in the future. No one has a right to tell anyone what/where he/she should be spending their hard- earned money. We all have a choice on what we buy - isn't that great?


So you think because someone can't afford or doesn't want to pay the price set by the company who has the legal right to sell an item, they have an unalienable right to buy an illegal counterfeit?


----------



## Sablotny

Something tells me this thread wouldn't generate the same passion if it were about some Chinese shop fabricating fake Giants


----------



## mrbubbles

Sablotny said:


> Something tells me this thread wouldn't generate the same passion if it were about some Chinese shop fabricating fake Giants


Or Fujis. It's all about the emotional connection. Which is why it's soo entertaining.


----------



## Ride-Fly

shermes said:


> So you think because someone can't afford or doesn't want to pay the price set by the company who has the legal right to sell an item, they have an unalienable right to buy an illegal counterfeit?


 Uhhh, where did he say that? I know, I know. He reaaaally didn't say that. You just knew that was what he meant to write and you were keen enough to read into it- something we are not skillful enough to do. 

This thread is too funny. Mods?!?!? Lock up?!?!?!?


----------



## Cinelli 82220

wevergo said:


> _Yes, and this entry model De Rosa for the U.K. is made in China_


_
Yes an entry model which De Rosa themselves readily acknowledge is made in Asia. They also had an earlier model, the Avant, made in Asia. I'm sorry I assumed you already knew this due to your extensive insider knowledge. And that you would know that I knew. 
By "real De Rosa" I am referring to the other models further up the line which are made in the factory in Italy. I have been there and seen them made, and so have many other posters. It was not an "Italian dream", the credit card bills were quite real. There are lots of pictures and videos on the internet of the processes De Rosa use. They are very proud of the fact that they build their own bikes and were happy to prove it.
Danilo De Rosa has taken his own frames to the NAHBS a couple of times, and is known as a very good builder. 
._


----------



## Cinelli 82220

mrbubbles said:


> Or Fujis. It's all about the emotional connection. Which is why it's soo entertaining.


It's more about a troll who pretends he's smarter than everyone else, note how he adds snide comments and insults to his replies to provoke reactions.
If he was just sharing information it would be okay. But that is obviously not his objective.
A lot like that troll who was on about carbon a few days ago.


----------



## wevergo

Cinelli 82220 said:


> It's more about a troll who pretends he's smarter than everyone else, note how he adds snide comments and insults to his replies to provoke reactions.
> If he was just sharing information it would be okay. But that is obviously not his objective.
> A lot like that troll who was on about carbon a few days ago.


I think the problem here is that all of you don't know how it works in bicycle industry when they use a so called 'open-mold'.
The contributions of many people here proofs it.
The only reactions (and no facts) I get are personal attacks because of your lack of information.
Can you explain how it works with an so called 'open-mold', and what it is about?
When you know the facts about 'open-mold' practice by the manufacturers there is no discussion anymore.
But no, the reactions here are: ignore it, deny it and abuse me.
Nice well educated(?) people showing their ignorance.

Goodbey, have a nice discussion, running behind the facts.

from the journals:

_.............Many so-called bikes on the market are simply mass-produced “open-mold” products.With open-mold bike frames, a factory or trading company owns the mold and sells “cookie-cutter” carbon bike frames to anyone who’s willing to buy. But the “pseudo manufacturers” that buy these open-mold bike frames don’t own or control the design, engineering, or material selection for the products they’re marketing. Usually, they just specify the paint or logos that are applied to a generic open-mold frame. You’ve probably already seen framesets that are marketed by two (or sometimes three, or four) different bike companies, and yet the bikes are identical to one another, except for the paint and logos...these are examples of open mold products, you can buy one yourself on the internet........._

_.........these frames that are pictured. they are not made at one of the "major" carbon companies as a FYI. The major brands out there use companies like Ten Tec [cervelo, scott, 3T, trek], Martec [specialized,G fisher, kuota, kestrel, fuji, bontranger..as well as others] as they are oem and not offering open molds. As these companies are in the manufacturing buisness, not retail which is why you generally do not see them at any tradeshows with there own booths. people go to them, not the other way around..then there are other smaller companies like--inda [orbea, ridely, etc.] CarboTec [pinarello, de rosa...] ADK [all felt, fuji, kestrel, orbea, etc..] dynamic [ teschner, DT, etc..] just to name a few. these guys have smaller shares and all offer open molds. open molds are frames similar to the ones that are in the pics that started this thread. open molds that come from any of the above companies definitely have the R&D and testing to back them up. They all follow CEN testing as guidleines to help limit law suits, etc... and all can be trusted and reliable. They invest in themselves, which is why you see lower prices compared to the "major brands" out there.............._

_..........*Many of these are 'Open Mold' frames, where a company will manufacture OEM frames for anyone who can **pay *- the Pedalforce CG1 and Ritte Bosberg are a good example of this. With a mold costing $60,000 or more (plus R&D) smaller companies can reduce their costs at the expense of non-exclusivity. ........._

........._.I’ve been interested in the calculus that goes on between large companies that do all their own engineering on their carbon fiber framesets and small outfits that work with some of the same manufacturing facilities and purchase frames that are produced in the manufacturer’s own molds. These frames are called “open mold” because literally anyone can buy these frames, provided they are willing to purchase enough of them_..........

..........._'For at least some of its product line, Velocite has purchased "open molds" from frame makers in China. For those of you who do not know, an "open mold" is where a company produces a generic mold for a composite frame that is pitched to various big bike frame manufacturers. These molds and their development is a costly process that consumes valuable company resources. If the mold can not be sold, it becomes "open" to any company that wishes to run several copies off the mold. Any company may use the mold and therefore it is not uncommon to find identical looking frames with different branding stickers.But it's true enough that anyone with enough time and trouble can easily purchase the exact same frame, albeit without the fancy paint job, and without a dealer network, and without any sort of real support other than an email address and return label from China....... for a fraction of the price. I know folks who've done this.
'._...........

















The Ritte bikes are all open-mold designs sourced overseas, but they feature, well, they look authentically Belgian: Belgian colours of the Belgian flag, the Flemish lion.
What else do you need to know?

Ritte, Alpaix: It is all a matter of marketing, even on blogs, twitter, facebook, forums, podcasts and even youtube etc. they do their marketing job.

https://taticycles.com/p/438

__________________________________________________________________________

Look at this, there are not only fake Colnagos:

presenting an open-mold frame as if it is an expensive and exclusive handmade Italian frame for *$2295,-*
You can get the frame (3K/12k/ or UD weave) for about $300-$360,- yourself from many trading companies, because it is an open mold.....made in China, model LTK006-ISP ore MT-MC015-SPL ore FM015.

_.......'Big changes (*charges???*) here at Alpaix. Our passion for bikes knows no boundries and the relentless pursuit for new ideas has led us to consider the next move. Under funded but overly enthusiastic we are laying the ground work for a new name, structure and products. We are going to focus on what we know and love best. Bikes. In particular frames of the custom handmade variety. We are in the process of engaging one of the most respected and accomplished custom carbon fiber artisans in Italy to craft frames for us. Every step of the way will see your frame designed and built to suit your dimensions, riding style, strengths, weaknesses (but we know you don't have any!) and aesthetic direction. We are not talking about cookie cutter open mould frames from China *scammers!!! * with a choice of 5 colors and then calling them custom. We also will engage Optimized Cycling Solutions to partner with us for the custom build and offering choices in drivetrain, cockpit and wheels. Known for their meticulous attention to detail and F1 like mechanical acumen, OCS will be sure your world class frame becomes a world class bike'.......
I really admire people who get off their ass and turn their passion into a business, striving to deliver something of quality back to what they love. We have posted on the guys over at Ritte Racing a few times, those guys are obviously that, and also on the guys at Franco Bikes, and now on Lindsey Dakota at Alpaix. Something is in the water in Southern California, because there seems to be a small group of frame brands emerging for the racer who may not be able to afford the big marquee names, but still wants a quality, light and nicely designed race frame. You need to shell out so much $$$ these days to stay in the game, wheels, tires, fees, travel, coffee, new white bar tape….what are we all doing! This is a brand for that racer. The frame follows the popular inclusion of a BB30 and an integrated seat post (which still makes me cringe at the thought of taking a saw to a frame). With both these features the frame sits at sub 1000g, so it would be considered light to most of us mortals. You also get a set of 350g forks, along with the headset and a carbon water cage, *all for $2295,-*. That is bloody good value for a race frame, with this quality of finish. In addition to each frame set, the purchase price also includes one bag of Wooden Bike Coffee, with proceeds going to Project Rwanda. Their latest addition to the line is a new new series of country paint jobs for Italia, Holland and France. Drop Lindsey an email at [email protected] if you need more info, or check out their blog to find out more about them. _

Their blog:
....._We are in the process of engaging one of the most respected and accomplished custom carbon fiber artisans in Italy to craft frames for us._.......

_*Alpaix Bikes of Southern California.*_
It is all fake for $2295,- 
















*Same frame for $300-$360,- BB: BB30 or BSA, Toray carbon, 3K/12k/ or UD weave, Finish:To order*

































































































Some 'manufacturers' must learn that customers are much smarter than they might think.

__________________________________________________________________________

Another so called 'open-mold' OEM frame you can buy yourself on the internet from trading companies,
ore buy it with 'brandnames' and pay significantly more, twice ore more, for the same frame:
It is an excellent frame: https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/road/product/extro-lc-10-39378?
No crap at all: EN tested, 2 years warranty.
https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNFI6mYbDUL4SI7TpDoiTSx_-j3VsQ&cad=rja
Test winner! Crap?
Available for a few hundred dollars.
































































































https://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s22/wevergo
/28975_109024342474921_107525505958138_67474_3395251_n.jpg


----------



## wevergo

and yes, relabel an very good quality open-mold frame, full Toray carbon, passed DIN *EN14781 test, 2 years warranty*, is a totally different/ another discussion.








*Some people call it crap.........*

The frame looks almost similar to a Pina.
People are killing eachother on the forums because of this open-mold frame, almost similar to a Chinese mold what they call Pinarello.
The most discussed open-mold frame in forums because of Pina 'emotions'.
If their lives depended on it.
What about Cube emotions, ore Alpaix, Giant, Ritte and Bianchi emotions............?


















































__________________________________________________________________________

Another one:

Here another open-mold frame (used by Cube?,but they are using the Easton 70SL fork )
I own two Cubes (Agree and Litening), exactly the same details (open-mold?) see my 'user gallery': https://gallery.roadbikereview.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=332353
Ore buy it yourself: Miracletrade, Ltbike and many other trading companies: using T700 carbon fiber from Toray, road bike frame passed EN14781


----------



## vladvm

wevergo said:


> and yes, relabel an very good quality open-mold frame, full Toray carbon, passed DIN EN14781 test, 2 years warranty is a totally different/ another discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some people call it crap.........
> 
> The frame looks almost similar to a Pina.
> People are killing eachother on the forums because of this open-mold frame, almost similar to a Chinese mold what they call Pinarello.
> The most discussed open-mold frame in forums because of Pina 'emotions'.
> If their lives depended on it.
> What about Cube emotions, ore Alpaix, Giant, Ritte and Bianchi emotions............?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another one:
> 
> Here another open-mold frame (used by Cube?,but they are using the Easton 70SL fork )
> I own two Cubes (Agree and Litening), exactly the same details (open-mold?) see my 'user gallery': https://gallery.roadbikereview.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=332353
> Ore buy it yourself: Miracletrade, Ltbike and many other trading companies: using T700 carbon fiber from Toray, road bike frame passed EN14781



good read


----------



## config

The post below actually came from another forum but I would just like to mention it here. I would also like to add though my personal experience. 

I purchased my first road bike when I lived in Italy in 2002. Obviously, I wanted (and was going) to get an Italian bike especially since several of the brand named bikes were literally a few miles away. My LBS there carried all the other brands including his own brand. He explained to me several times (in Italian) that I could buy the well known brand name since it was my money but it wasn't really necessary or a waste of money. I didn't quite get it at the time (or wasn't completely convinced) so I decided to travel and go to the address of several of the major bike companies. I was quite disappointed that those (factories) weren't anything more than just a paint shop. I was expecting so much more. In just a few months, my LBS had moved to a new and bigger place and started carrying more models which some of them were identical to the other big brands. That's when I finally understood what we was telling me the entire time and bought one of his bikes with his name on it. I still had no idea this was called 'open-mold' and DO NOT claim to know if Colnago (since this is a Colnago forum) utilizes that but it's GREAT to see an owner of a major brand admit to this. My hats off to Ritte Cycles!!!

-----
Hey guys, I'm Spencer and I actually own Ritte Cycles. I aim to be very transparent about our bikes and philosophy, so I thought I'd clarify some things. Pedal Force isn't actually a manufacturer, they're a clearing house for the factories, so it's common to find their frames match other brands. (Their previous top-end model was also labeled as a Fondriest, for instance). That said, Ritte doesn't actually make the bikes and we don't own the molds. If we did either of these things, the Bosberg would have to be $3500 instead of $1650. We did, however, play a significant role in the design and testing of the frame, and sharing it with other companies ends up being a good thing for us and our customers. Despite also being available as a "generic" frame from Pedal Force, it's actually an amazing bike. And if you're looking for a new frame and want to save some cash, then you should pick it up from PF. You'll have to also buy the fork and headset, and I don't think theirs has a seat mast, but their price still ends up being lower than ours since we paint the Bosberg and deal in very limited quantities.

To answer your question, RDV4ROUBAIX, The Boserg won't accept 28mm tires, but it does handle 25s. We just raced them at Battenkill and they ate up the dirt. It has a longish wheelbase and chainstays and ends up being a very balanced, stable bike. As for the Crossberg, it won't have a seat mast because it's just not practical. ... maybe I'll cave to the pressure next year.

If you're interested to hear more I wrote a blog entry about all this on my site: http://www.ritteracing.com/2010/02/w...our-bike-made/

Cheers, Spencer


----------



## FrenchNago

*Once Colna always colna*

A while ago (5 months ago) I had a heated discussion with a friend about Pinarello vs Colnago

I was buying my C50 and he was telling me that I should buy a Pina newer model -eg paris or kohb_ and that any ways at that level of bikes it didn't change anything 'cause all the top italian frames were out of Taiwan anyways these days..........

I see he may be right for the dogma and all the rest of the Pina line which i knew were made in Taiwan, painted & built up in Italy, but i thought Pina had their own line........doesn't seem so.........

How right I was to buy that C50.............and I'll stay with Mr Colnago whom seems to stick to his own even with the newer monocoque designs (M10, CX, CLX) which seem to be out of a dedicated line in taiwan.........I do not want to be forking out for a painted noname I can get cheaper elsewhere and that will ride (possibly very well) like any other, differently painted bike.........

However I worry and wonder what will happen to the brand when Ernesto's family really takes over..............


----------



## wevergo

_'We did, however, play a significant role in the design and testing of the frame, and sharing it with other companies ends up being a good thing for us and our customers._

I doubt seriously this statement.

A mold is only an 'open mold' when it comes on the market because of no interest. So how can you say afterwards that you've designed and tested the mold/frame from the beginning...?

Marketing language........still pretend it is their own frame, but it's not.


----------



## wevergo

A ( Colnago ) Gryphon.
Made in *TAIWAN*.



















*REVIEWS*: Gryphon carbon frames

Cycling Weekly
»
Looks fantastic, is extremely lightweight, comfortable yet sporty enough to race and costs ridiculously little.

Road Bike Review
»
Handling made a lasting impression. Another four words? How about these? Crisp. Taut. Precise. Nimble.

Road Bike Review
»
Climbing is effortless. decends great, tracks well on high speed decents.I didnt find any twitchyness , I would say it is very responsive but stable.

Bike Radar
»
Fast steering, racy feel, could equally be raced or ridden all day.

Weight Weenies Forum
»
Really stiff and descends great for me.
»
Climbs very well with nice stiffness, stable at all speeds.


----------



## wevergo




----------



## nightfend

When I bought my Colnago Extreme Power, the fork had a Made in Taiwan label stuck to the fork leg. So even a few years ago, they were manufacturing the forks in Taiwan. The frame, as I understand it, back then was definitely made in Italy. But I do wonder now, whether the C59 is made in Italy, or whether it is pieced together from parts made in Taiwan.


----------



## fabsroman

nightfend said:


> When I bought my Colnago Extreme Power, the fork had a Made in Taiwan label stuck to the fork leg. So even a few years ago, they were manufacturing the forks in Taiwan. The frame, as I understand it, back then was definitely made in Italy. But I do wonder now, whether the C59 is made in Italy, or whether it is pieced together from parts made in Taiwan.


The 75 fork is made in Taiwan. That is what came on my C50 and your EP.

Anybody that has a frame jig, the tubes, the lugs, and some glue can build these lugged frames. I have seen the video of Colnago putting these lugged frames together in their factory, but once the jig is set up, it doesn't seem like it is rocket science. Haven't really been too thrilled with the Colnago paint schemes lately, so if I ever feel like buying a new frame maybe I'll just go with a Gryphon and have it custom painted the way I want it.

With that said, I am going to buy a Colnago MXL here in a little while. At least it is steel and requires some welding know how.

What kills me is that the new C59 and EPQ are over $4,000. I could barely swallow $2,500 for the Cristallo and $3,200 for the C50. It just seems like the Colnago prices are getting out of control. At least Ferrari builds its own cars.


----------



## nightfend

Blame the pricing spikes on companies like Pinarello who can charge $5,000+ for a frame that is not even custom geometry. Kind of ridiculous really.

If I was going to spend that much, I'd just buy a custom Parlee or something.


----------



## mrbubbles

wevergo said:


>


I've seen similar photos floating around. This is a Taiwanese carbon factory I presume, Carbotec?

Its got a "Pinarello" frame painted as something else, a De Rosa, a Colnago on top of the Gryphon. 

Word is some of the Carbotec engineers left and helped other factories in the mainland with similar layups.


----------



## fabsroman

nightfend said:


> Blame the pricing spikes on companies like Pinarello who can charge $5,000+ for a frame that is not even custom geometry. Kind of ridiculous really.
> 
> If I was going to spend that much, I'd just buy a custom Parlee or something.


Nah, I think Colnago, DeRosa, and Pinarello are relying on their "brand" recognition from the 80s and possibly the 90s. I know I bought my Cristallo because I had always wanted a Colnago since I was 13, maybe 14. Bought the rest of my Colnagos because I loved the ride of the Cristallo. So far, I have been extremely happy with all of them. However, if I can find the same ride for a lot less money, I am fine with that too. Especially if Colnagos are being manufactured in Taiwan nowadays.

I love the history behind Colnago, Pinarello, DeRosa, and Bianchi, but if they are going to build frames from "open moulds" and rely on the engineering of these frame building companies, then why spend the extra dollars just so the frame says Colnago on it? I guess that will get us in the exclusivity club, but I am willing to bet that I could send a stripped down EPQ frame to a frame painter, get one heck of a paint job put on it, and even have them stick Colnago in all the right places if I wish. How pissed would I be if I spent $5,000 on an EPQ and some guy pulls up next to me on an identical Gryphon and tells me he spent $1,000 as he proceeds to rip my legs off?

Have to wonder why the bike mags don't disclose all this stuff. Probably because they would be biting the hand that feeds them. Essentially, the reason Colnago, Pinarello, DeRosa, Bianchi, etc. get to charge insane prices for these "open mould" frames is because of their history (i.e., goodwill) and because they have more marketing dollars than the rest of the companies selling these frames. That will only last as long as the average consumer is oblivious to the information provided in this thread.


----------



## fabsroman

nightfend said:


> When I bought my Colnago Extreme Power, the fork had a Made in Taiwan label stuck to the fork leg. So even a few years ago, they were manufacturing the forks in Taiwan. The frame, as I understand it, back then was definitely made in Italy. But I do wonder now, whether the C59 is made in Italy, or whether it is pieced together from parts made in Taiwan.


Oh, it is definitely pieced together from parts made in Tawain. Colnago is getting its carbon from Toray now which, while being a premier carbon manufacturer, is located in Taiwan.

Essentially, all Colnago is doing in Italy is putting these pieces together on their jigs and painting the frames. I have to really wonder how many bikes they are even putting together in Cambiago nowadays.


----------



## mrbubbles

mrbubbles said:


> Its got a "Pinarello" frame painted as something else, a De Rosa, a Colnago on top of the Gryphon.


Found it.










Another Gryphon.










https://asteriskcycles.wordpress.com/

More and more it looks like EPS is an open mold frame purchased up by Colnago. (Speculating)
Question is, how did the mold also end up in the Pearl River Delta?


----------



## wevergo

You can buy Gryphon in Taiwan.
Price: frame, fork, nice handlebar and seatpost: USD $3410,- €2355,-.
Toray T800 carbon frame 30 High Modulus.
Only small sizes for small Taiwanese.


----------



## nightfend

$3400 is not exactly cheap, though. Does look like a nice frame and probably rides exactly the same as the EPS.


----------



## flatsix911

Very interesting thread ...


----------



## fabsroman

nightfend said:


> $3400 is not exactly cheap, though. Does look like a nice frame and probably rides exactly the same as the EPS.


Cheaper than what Colnagos are going for nowadays, especially when you add in the price of Cinelli Ram bars or some other one piece bar/stem and a seatpost. If Colnagos were still around the $3,000 range, even without bars and seatpost, I could probably stomach the price a little better.

Now, if the American distributor did blowouts every couple of years at significantly reduced prices, I'd be alright with that too.

It is just hard to believe that in 2008 I paid $3,200 for my C50 and now to get a higher end Colnago frame 3 years later I am looking at paying $4,500+ from the same retailer, and even Maestro's prices are up there now.

Might have to get me a "Lamborghini" frame soon. Was thinking about buying one of their tractors, but they don't make a compact tractor that would fit my needs. When I told my wife that Lamborghini makes tractors, she slapped her forehead. LOL


----------



## chocy

It is conceivable that Taiwanese have sourced the same tubes. But then again we don't know if these frames have the same inside 3PRS tubes etc as those are places where they could cut cost. 
Considering EPS has T1000 carbon (I think) and comes with Ti BB insert as oppose to T800 and carbon? insert of Gryphone, the price of Colnago is not crazy albeit still high. Actually I paid whole lot less for my EPS on PBK sale than what Gryphone would go for....

BTW check this out

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn...-dyeing-pets-to-look-like-other-wild-animals/

Chinese will copy whatever is desirable so it is also possible that they did not have the proper Colnago mold but decided to copy it anyway. At the cost of Gryphone this is quite conceivable as well...

The point is, nobody really knows what's going on here...


----------



## icsloppl

> REVIEWS: Gryphon carbon frames
> 
> Cycling Weekly
> »
> Looks fantastic, is extremely lightweight, comfortable yet sporty enough to race and costs ridiculously little.
> 
> Road Bike Review
> »
> Handling made a lasting impression. Another four words? How about these? Crisp. Taut. Precise. Nimble.
> 
> Road Bike Review
> »
> Climbing is effortless. decends great, tracks well on high speed decents.I didnt find any twitchyness , I would say it is very responsive but stable.
> 
> Bike Radar
> »
> Fast steering, racy feel, could equally be raced or ridden all day.
> 
> Weight Weenies Forum
> »
> Really stiff and descends great for me.
> »
> Climbs very well with nice stiffness, stable at all speeds.


Unfortunately, a search of all of these sites shows no reviews of any "Gryphon" bikes or frames of any model. Perhaps you could provide a direct link?


----------



## nightfend

I still think $3400 is too much to pay for a frame from a company I've never heard of. At that price point, you could buy a Cannondale SuperSix Hi-Mod, or any other number of frames from more reputable manufacturers.


----------



## chocy

I think the biggest culprit for price increase in Colnago or other European Frame is USD to Euro conversion. This price hike also happened with Leica camera gears too. the lens that used to cost $2600 now costs $4000. 
And no it's not because they just increased it because they were selling like hot cakes.

So yes it sucks that it costs that much but once Italian labor cost is involved in any manner, (be it painting or putting sticks together) The cost of labor will be significantly more than purely Asian based frames. Once considering that into account Gryphon is much more ridiculous price wise than proper Colnago. I would cough up extra grand to get a proper one with better carbon. (If not why get Colnago, just get Giant or Specialized)


----------



## wevergo

icsloppl said:


> Unfortunately, a search of all of these sites shows no reviews of any "Gryphon" bikes or frames of any model. Perhaps you could provide a direct link?


Use search term: Rezia ore/and Trento, (these are also Gryphon frames)
ore/and search by framenumber of the mold.


----------



## fabsroman

chocy said:


> I think the biggest culprit for price increase in Colnago or other European Frame is USD to Euro conversion. This price hike also happened with Leica camera gears too. the lens that used to cost $2600 now costs $4000.
> And no it's not because they just increased it because they were selling like hot cakes.
> 
> So yes it sucks that it costs that much but once Italian labor cost is involved in any manner, (be it painting or putting sticks together) The cost of labor will be significantly more than purely Asian based frames. Once considering that into account Gryphon is much more ridiculous price wise than proper Colnago. I would cough up extra grand to get a proper one with better carbon. (If not why get Colnago, just get Giant or Specialized)


I am well aware of the exchange rate, and when you take a $3,200 price point in 2008 and go to a $4,400 price point in 2010, trust me, the exchange rate did not change around 33% off the top of my head. A dollar buys about 7/10ths of a Euro now. It wasn't that much different in 2008. A little, maybe, but not drastic enough to result in that sort of price increase. Maybe we can throw inflation in there too, but at 3% for 2 years, even 3 yeas, you are only accounting for 6% to 9%. Essentially, going from $3,200 to $4,400 is a 37.5% price increase.


----------



## fabsroman

nightfend said:


> I still think $3400 is too much to pay for a frame from a company I've never heard of. At that price point, you could buy a Cannondale SuperSix Hi-Mod, or any other number of frames from more reputable manufacturers.


Again, marketing and name recognition strikes. Kind of like buying Kellog's Rice Krispies at $2 more a box over Target brand. Needless to say, we eat Target brand here.

If the frames are manufactured by the exact same company and to the exact same specs, what is the real difference? From what I have heard and read, Colnago isn't that keen to do warranty replacements. About the only difference I can possibly see is a really deep pocket should the frame actually fail catastrophically and result in severe physical damage or death. Even then, Gryphon probably has liability insurance and there is always the manufacturer to go after.

Like I already said, Colnago, Pinarello, DeRosa, and Bianchi are relying on their history (i.e., name recognition) to charge 25% to 40% more for the exact same frame offered by other competitors. I might be able to swallow that if the paint schemes were a little more exotic, but not for stuff like MTBK and other schemes that look like they are merely masked off with a simple scheme and painted.


----------



## chocy

I understand what you are saying but 2008 was when Euro really started spiking and European Vendors beginning to realize that they had to raise their prices. Remember Euro started almost 1:1. The price of European goods in general did not change until around 2008 based on what I have seen. so I think my speculation is still valid. I am sure it did compel them to raise price too as they were selling so well. 

Anyway everyone knows such price increase cannot be due to one sole factor but due to combination of multiple factors, such as currency, inflation, manufacturing cost and demand...


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Most brands like Pina, Merckx, Colnago or De Rosa have an exclusive distributor in the US. That distributor can charge whatever they feel like, they figure they are the only game in town. Want a Dogma? You have no choice but to go through Gita. 
And notice the uniformity of (absurdly inflated) pricing for, a KOBH? $4500 everywhere. A Merckx EMX7, $6200 everywhere. Hardly looks like free market capitalism to me. Have any dealers or consumers ever fought this price-fixing in court?
I waited months for my LBS to get me a bike, either they or their distributor were so full of themselves they figured they could take my money and sit on it. Well thanks to the internet, I got it for a third less, and waited three weeks instead of five months.
The whole bicycle industry distribution model is twenty years behind the rest of the world.
And for some reason, consumers seem happy to pay inflated prices and wait months for a frame that is sitting on a shelf in a warehouse.
It's time manufacturers started dealing direct, like Trek and Specialised already do with some parts of their product range. There is no reason Colnago could not have a website with their current inventory clearly listed, and a secure ordering procedure, and a reliable shipping and tracking system. Instead, we have to put down a deposit and hope that Uncle Ernie gives us the privilege of owning one of his creations....


----------



## fabsroman

chocy said:


> I understand what you are saying but 2008 was when Euro really started spiking and European Vendors beginning to realize that they had to raise their prices. Remember Euro started almost 1:1. The price of European goods in general did not change until around 2008 based on what I have seen. so I think my speculation is still valid. I am sure it did compel them to raise price too as they were selling so well.
> 
> Anyway everyone knows such price increase cannot be due to one sole factor but due to combination of multiple factors, such as currency, inflation, manufacturing cost and demand...


The Euro was 1:1 back in 2001 when I was in Italy. In 2008, it was far from 1:1

If you do a quick search, you will see that in 2008, a dollar bought .64 euro at the weakest point of the dollar. Towards the end of 2008, the dollar bought almost .80 euro.

http://www.oanda.com/currency/historical-rates/


----------



## fabsroman

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Most brands like Pina, Merckx, Colnago or De Rosa have an exclusive distributor in the US. That distributor can charge whatever they feel like, they figure they are the only game in town. Want a Dogma? You have no choice but to go through Gita.
> And notice the uniformity of (absurdly inflated) pricing for, a KOBH? $4500 everywhere. A Merckx EMX7, $6200 everywhere. Hardly looks like free market capitalism to me. Have any dealers or consumers ever fought this price-fixing in court?
> I waited months for my LBS to get me a bike, either they or their distributor were so full of themselves they figured they could take my money and sit on it. Well thanks to the internet, I got it for a third less, and waited three weeks instead of five months.
> The whole bicycle industry distribution model is twenty years behind the rest of the world.
> And for some reason, consumers seem happy to pay inflated prices and wait months for a frame that is sitting on a shelf in a warehouse.
> It's time manufacturers started dealing direct, like Trek and Specialised already do with some parts of their product range. There is no reason Colnago could not have a website with their current inventory clearly listed, and a secure ordering procedure, and a reliable shipping and tracking system. Instead, we have to put down a deposit and hope that Uncle Ernie gives us the privilege of owning one of his creations....


The way I have been buying frames, sight unseen, since there are very few Colnago dealers with anything actually in stock, I might as well just order directly from Colnago and cut out the wholesaler and retailer. Question is whether Colnago would charge us less for ordering direct from it, or if we would still have to pay full retail price.

The problem with allowing direct order at a lower price means that the retailer will be entirely obsolete. Maybe bike shops would have to start charging on a hourly basis for advice like frame size and test rides because as soon as a person figured out which bike they wanted, they would order it directly from the manufacturer at a reduced price. How could an LBS stay in business?

With what has been discussed in this thread, the question is how much longer will people be willing to wait 3+ months for a frame AND pay a premium for it when the off brand is the exact same thing and available much sooner?


----------



## chocy

fabsroman said:


> The Euro was 1:1 back in 2001 when I was in Italy. In 2008, it was far from 1:1
> 
> If you do a quick search, you will see that in 2008, a dollar bought .64 euro at the weakest point of the dollar. Towards the end of 2008, the dollar bought almost .80 euro.
> 
> http://www.oanda.com/currency/historical-rates/


Yes I know this too because I was in Europe for three months in 2008. What I am saying is manufacturer had been eating the currency difference until 2008ish, until it got so bad many realized that they had to raise the price to keep on with their business and Euro will probably stay up there or a while. I am using Leica as an example and their prices had risen significantly in 2008 and then again in 2010. I am suggesting that Colnago may have done something similar to Leica where they ate the currency loss in C50 since it was already out but raised prices especially in the US in subsequent models to reflect the currency rate change. Many of the ideas in this thread are speculations since we cannot hear from the horse's mouth, and this is just one more of those  But it's all in good fun isn't it??


----------



## fabsroman

chocy said:


> Yes I know this too because I was in Europe for three months in 2008. What I am saying is manufacturer had been eating the currency difference until 2008ish, until it got so bad many realized that they had to raise the price to keep on with their business and Euro will probably stay up there or a while. I am using Leica as an example and their prices had risen significantly in 2008 and then again in 2010. I am suggesting that Colnago may have done something similar to Leica where they ate the currency loss in C50 since it was already out but raised prices especially in the US in subsequent models to reflect the currency rate change. Many of the ideas in this thread are speculations since we cannot hear from the horse's mouth, and this is just one more of those  But it's all in good fun isn't it??


The only reason I got the frame for $3,200 was because I bought it in Switzerland at the time. From US retailers it was going for $4,400. Now, even that retailer is rather expensive.

So, if my Swiss retailer is buying the frame from Colnago, and not using dollars to buy it, the only time the dollar comes into play is when the price is converted from Swiss francs to US dollars. I actually gained a little on the price because the dollar got stronger compared to the Swiss france right before the frame was delivered.

Believe me, I undertand what you are saying. I just don't agree with it completely. It could be possible, but somewhat hard to believe.

Like you said, we will never know for sure, but we might as well have some fun speculating.


----------



## mrbubbles

All this quibbling had me purchased a Chinago from cyclingyong and I have received it. Exceeded expectation. Didn't pay the asking price either. Woot.


----------



## fabsroman

mrbubbles said:


> All this quibbling had me purchased a Chinago from cyclingyong and I have received it. Exceeded expectation. Didn't pay the asking price either. Woot.


I am terrible about sarcasm on the internet. You playing around, or did you actually buy one? If you actually bought one, how about posting some pics.

Chinalgo doesn't sound half bad. LOL


----------



## mrbubbles

It looks identical to the pics on cyclingyong's aliexpress website. Very well packed, lots of wrapping. Cyclingyong has also been very responsive and helpful over email. 

Note: There's no fd braze on, a regular tapered headset is supplied, not the semi-integrated headset.


----------



## beij

Interesting exchange of views. I own a clone 838 which I purchased legally as far as I can tell. I have been using it as a winter bike, rides well and is very comfortable. The manufacturer claimed it was made of Toray t-700 which I have to take at face value. I have decided that I like the geometry better than my BHG5 (my shoulders and back do anyway) so I am in the process of selling the G5 and purchasing a Swift Carbon 838isp. According to Swift this is made from a combination of Toray T800 and T1000. Maybe I will not be able to tell the difference but it does suggest that it is made from different material. Certainly looks fantastic. I will be able to report any ride differences when the frame arrives and I build it up. I would be interested to hear reports from any others who have this frame?
Cheers


----------



## Ride-Fly

mrbubbles said:


> It looks identical to the pics on cyclingyong's aliexpress website. Very well packed, lots of wrapping. Cyclingyong has also been very responsive and helpful over email.
> 
> Note: There's no fd braze on, a regular tapered headset is supplied, not the semi-integrated headset.


I noticed that about the Chinagos, especially the frt tab. I saw that in the pics, the white frames didn't have it while the black ones did. I couldn't tell about the headset. Post pics when you get it built up. 

OT question: what is the "rep power"??? and why does mrbubbles have one red bar? How does one get rated?


----------



## Cinelli 82220

*Fake Bontrager stems*

Impossible to say if these frames really are Toray T700 or T1000. But the guy is enough of a liar to advertise them as Colnago or Pinarello without a disclaimer that they are replicas.

I noticed he's branching out into fake Bontrager XXX stems now. Maybe Trek will take legal action where Colnago and Pina haven't. It might be an interesting case. The Italians may not have pursued it because they worried about disclosing their real fabricator, or some confidential intellectual property re layups or material.


----------



## fabsroman

Ride-Fly said:


> I noticed that about the Chinagos, especially the frt tab. I saw that in the pics, the white frames didn't have it while the black ones did. I couldn't tell about the headset. Post pics when you get it built up.
> 
> OT question: what is the "rep power"??? and why does mrbubbles have one red bar? How does one get rated?


Lordy, this is going to take forever to explain "rep". You can leave a person "rep" by cliking on the "thumbs up" icon in the bottom left corner of their post. As a person gets more and more positive rep, they will accumulate more and more green boxes. I think the maximum is 11 green boxes with 5 dark green and 6 light green.

Rep power is a combination of several things. How long you have been on the board, how many posts you have, your current rep, etc. The higher your rep power, the more you can influence somebody's rep. For instance, I have a 23, so when I leave somebody positive rep, they get 23 positive points towards earning another green box. Same thing happens if I leave them negative rep. The higher your rep power, the more you influence somebody else's actual rep when you leave positive or negative rep.

A red box means that you have negative rep. In essence, you have received more negative rep points than positive rep points.

A blue/grey box is neutral meaning that your positive and negative is about equal.

Hope that explains it well enough. There is a brief article about it in FAQ.

Now, time to go and look at these Chinalgos. I wish somebody had left the actual website instead of hints to it though.


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## fabsroman

Alright, that was quick. Are you guys telling me that this is legit? There is an EPS in MTBK on that website for $100 in 52cm and it is labeled as a Colnago. A 52 is at the very bottom of the size chart that I can ride, but for $100 for an EPS, even in a color scheme that I don't really love, why the heck wouldn't I buy it. $100? How can that even be? Maybe the shipping is $1,000.


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## fab4

fabsroman said:


> Alright, that was quick. Are you guys telling me that this is legit? There is an EPS in MTBK on that website for $100 in 52cm and it is labeled as a Colnago. A 52 is at the very bottom of the size chart that I can ride, but for $100 for an EPS, even in a color scheme that I don't really love, why the heck wouldn't I buy it. $100? How can that even be? Maybe the shipping is $1,000.


$100 is only a deposit to begin production of the frame. Actual price is $899 shipped.


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## mrbubbles

fabsroman said:


> Are you guys telling me that this is legit?


Legit. I got one. A Chinalgo in the wild. 

Watermarked so cyclingyong doesn't steal my fotos.

Edit: The first photo seems to show a scratch that's not really there in real life, oh well.


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## icsloppl

What size did you get? 
How tall are you?
What size conventional Colnago do you normally ride?


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## fabsroman

fab4 said:


> $100 is only a deposit to begin production of the frame. Actual price is $899 shipped.


Still $899 shipped is freaking ridiculous compared to the $4,000+ I am seeing from European dealers and in the US it is something around $5,000.

The really sad thing is that I have my heart set on a MXL in PR82, so I am going to shell out $2,000 for it. I'll have to see what the money situation is like come Xmas and if these frames are still around I might try to convince my wife that a EPS would be nice in PR99 to go with the Master in PR82.


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## mrbubbles

icsloppl said:


> What size did you get?
> How tall are you?
> What size conventional Colnago do you normally ride?


172cm. This is a traditional (conventional?) 52cm sizing.

Cyclingyong didn't have any Colnago seatpost for some reason, so I got him to throw in a "Bontrager Race XXX Lite", weight checks out too.


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## flatsix911

Here is your chance to get a _real_ 2009 Pinarello FP6 Frameset for half price...:thumbsup:

*Sale $1250 Was $2500 * https://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT&OPTION=LOAD_PRODUCT_BY_ID&PRODUCT.ID=5433


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## wevergo

Also made in Taiwan........

_".......As long as Pinarello put "made in Italy" on their frames you can put "Pinarello" on yours......."_


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## JKLEE

Thanks for the information...


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## nightfend

mrbubbles said:


> Legit. I got one. A Chinalgo in the wild.
> 
> Watermarked so cyclingyong doesn't steal my fotos.
> 
> Edit: The first photo seems to show a scratch that's not really there in real life, oh well.


Man, that's funny. The signature is not Ernesto Colnago, it looks like Erue Moluago or something. Awesome! 

Ahh, nevermind. I just looked at my Colnago and his signature really is that messed up. :cryin:


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## fabsroman

nightfend said:


> Man, that's funny. The signature is not Ernesto Colnago, it looks like Erue Moluago or something. Awesome!
> 
> Ahh, nevermind. I just looked at my Colnago and his signature really is that messed up. :cryin:


He is an old man nowadays. His hand isn't as steady as it once was. Plus, he has signed his name millions of times already.

I found a paper the other day from high school that I had written my name on. A lot more legible back then compared to now. Can't imagine what my scribble will look like when I am in my 70s.


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## iwantmigz

They have the fake colnagos on eBay as well. I contacted a guy who bought one.
Here's his response:

I purchased the Colnago EPS frameset XS size, nude black finish. I believe it is a replica (forgery?) as I was informed after the buy-it-now sale that there is no serial number for the frame, and that it is made in China. It is well made, not perfect. There are some minor blemishes to the clear coat like 2mm holes, and there are signs that wheel skewers were applied to the fork tabs but the frame was sold as 'new', and 'flawless'. I can't see if the internal surface of the frame tubes have ribs as Colnago designed. The frame weight is 1050g and fork 450g, close to the original. This was accurately quoted by the seller when I inquired. The shipment was prompt, the packing adequate but not perfect. For example there were no protective stays in the front or rear forks to avoid crushing. There are headset bearings installed but this was not apparent from the listing. It came with a Campagnolo labeled seat clamp, sealed in a poly bag labeled "Made in Italy", 26g. The decals look like the real thing. In short I don't know if I bought a factory second, a demo, a copy, or what, but know it is not a genuine Colnago frameset with factory warranty. I have not had time to build the bike but would have that done at my local bike shop anyway. I hope this is helpful to you.


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## chocy

Can someone who has this frame take a picture of the inside of its headtube?

One thing that is clear is that these Chinalgos are clearly not identical bike that came off the same assembly line. It does not have the same kind of headset nor does it appear to have the same BB. I would be surprised to see ribs in the tubing as well. With this many shortcuts taken, these Chinalgos are really what they are, Fakes. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't ride anything close to the real one. Actually I would think it would be quite noodley when compared to FM-015 or other generic Chinese carbon frames.


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## mrbubbles

chocy said:


> Actually I would think it would be quite noodley when compared to FM-015 or other generic Chinese carbon frames.


It's as stiff as my Spesh S-works. Overall, I can't tell much difference. It's definitely not a pos though. There is a Colnago dealer nearby, put on a braze-on and a semi-integrated headset and the dealer won't be able to tell the difference either.


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## 9-18 Fast

So does anyone know what “Open mold” Ritte Bikes is using for their new road frame? (The white one with the internal cable routing) I know it looks like a FM015 But that frame does not come with the internal cable routing.


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## FTR

Wow.
Just read through this thread.
WTF is Robdamanii allowed to continue to spout his rascist and biggotted crap on these boards?
Is there no remaining moderators to rein him in.
I get so sick of his BS in every thread about Chinese frames.
Rob, we get it.
You dont like the Chinese.


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## robdamanii

FTR said:


> Wow.
> Just read through this thread.
> WTF is Robdamanii allowed to continue to spout his rascist and biggotted crap on these boards?
> Is there no remaining moderators to rein him in.
> I get so sick of his BS in every thread about Chinese frames.
> Rob, we get it.
> You dont like the Chinese.


You want to get another thread locked? I'm not the only one who disagrees with the gray market sales going on in China. Most of us want you to keep your discussion of these things in the proper thread and not flood the bikes/frames forum with these topics.

I'd actually like to see a sub forum to corral all of you together in one place and keep you there.

Don't like it? Find the ignore button. 

Counterfeiting is still wrong. Counterfeiters are still scum. People who support them are no better.


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## FTR

You are still retarded and rascist.


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## robdamanii

FTR said:


> You are still retarded and rascist.


I love you too sugar.


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## Coolhand

FTR said:


> You are still retarded and rascist.


And that's a posting vacation for you. Don't like his opinions- just put him on ignore next time.


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## Salsa_Lover

robdamanii speaketh the truth


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## flatsix911

FTR said:


> You are still retarded and *rascist*.


Retarded and _racist_ and spelling challenged ... :thumbsup:


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