# Tarmac Expert Compact: 8r frame or 6r frame?



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

Hi. I am studying the Tarmac Expert frames at the Specialized website. The regular Ultegra version and the Rival version of the Expert model are stated built with the 8r frame.

However, the Tarmac Expert Compact frame is stated built with the 6r frame. Is this true or is this a mistake? I'm not sure why the frame would be downgraded on the Compact model, without a price decrease. Is the Tarmac Expert Compact actually built with the 6r frame or the 8r frame?

Edited for clarity: If I click on the "features" section for the Tarmac Expert Compact frame, it states it is built with the 6r frame. If I click on the "technical specifications" section for the Tarmac Expert Compact frame, it states it is built with the 8r frame, adding to my confusion.

Can anyone clear this up once and for all?


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

08 Expert frame is 8r utilizing AZ1 construction....


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## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

Thank you for that. Now I'm going to call the bike shop, see if they have any or can get one.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*be careful*

i noticed that too..

you better be darn sure of that as the frames ride qualities are way different!!!

the Expert frame with AZ1 construction (split seatstay) is MILES better than the 6r construction (monostay).

ask the dealer to clarify, and put HIS word on it that it is exactly what you are asking for, maybe even get it in writing??

specialized might be trying to clear out some old 6r frames before the switch to the new SL2 moulds..

hope this helps


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## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

It does help a lot, I think it is always a good idea to be cautious. Here's a question: doesn't Specialized, like most bike companies, put a decal on their road bikes specifying exactly which frame material you are getting?

For example, Trek puts "OCLV" on their better carbon fiber road bikes. Wouldn't Specialized put "8r" on a frame if it was so, and "6r" on that particular build?


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

sometimes, sometimes not...maybe it is just a technical glitch on the website..

but if it was my money i would want to see the sticker on the frame or hear it from the Rep's mouth that it IS a AZ1 framed bike..


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## canthidefromme (Jun 29, 2006)

of the gazillion stickers on my tarmac elite, there is no indication that it's a 6r frame. i would guess the expert is 8r


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

a_avery007 said:


> i noticed that too..
> 
> you better be darn sure of that as the frames ride qualities are way different!!!
> 
> ...


Unless you've done extensive test rides of both 6r and 8r frames (same bike fit, same route, conditions, wheelsets, tires/ pressures), this is nothing more than your opinion. And even if you had done the testing, it would still be your opinion without the use of precision instruments and documentation supporting your findings. 

The AZ1 construction also is monocoque, but the manufacturing process differs slightly resulting in a stiffer, lighter frame, but not by much. Some of which is due to the different carbon modulus used - 6r (240 GPa) versus 8r (294 GPa). For comparison, the Tarmac SL is rated at 390 GPa, substantially stiffer (higher modulus).

And BTW, none of this has anything to do with split or mono seatstays. The type of construction didn't dictate them, the designers did.

Finally, if you're talking '08's, 6r Experts don't exist. They're all 8r, if any are still left, that is.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*and you know what about my test rides?*



PJ352 said:


> Unless you've done extensive test rides of both 6r and 8r frames (same bike fit, same route, conditions, wheelsets, tires/ pressures), this is nothing more than your opinion. And even if you had done the testing, it would still be your opinion without the use of precision instruments and documentation supporting your findings.
> 
> The AZ1 construction also is monocoque, but the manufacturing process differs slightly resulting in a stiffer, lighter frame, but not by much. Some of which is due to the different carbon modulus used - 6r (240 GPa) versus 8r (294 GPa). For comparison, the Tarmac SL is rated at 390 GPa, substantially stiffer (higher modulus).
> 
> ...


that's right not much!!

oh it's you again?? should have figured..denial is a river man...

tested both bikes with mavic K SL's with conti GP's at 110psi, with same post and saddle, obviously not same exact drivetrain nor handlebars and tape.

have ridden both frames on some extensive climbs, on the same rides in the 40-60 mile range (2000ft of climbing), 2X, and yes it is very noticable!!

the mention of the stays is just to help the person identify the frame, as usually they are of different construction.

don't really care what you label the carbon: t-800, 8r, 1000R Ultrahighmodulushighnanotechnology, whatever....they ride different period.

if you cant tell the difference between the elite, the tarmac sl and the sl2 that is your opinion, i just stated that i can tell the difference quite easily.

yes i know stiff brother, have owned a scott cr1 and ridden an Cervelo R3..

hope this helps clarify some things...

and gee that Elite sure does look eerily similar to a PF frame, which i would not call all that stiff..lol;-)


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> Unless you've done extensive test rides of both 6r and 8r frames (same bike fit, same route, conditions, wheelsets, tires/ pressures), this is nothing more than your opinion...


Since we're talking ancedotal evidence here, I would like comment that I also found the 8r frame to have a much nicer ride than the 6r frame with the same tire pressure and tires.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

a_avery007 said:


> that's right not much!!
> 
> tested both bikes with mavic K SL's with conti GP's at 110psi, with same post and saddle, obviously not same exact drivetrain nor handlebars and tape.
> 
> ...


Everything you've posted did nothing more than substantiate my claim that you are posting your opinions, not fact. Obviously you're entitled to do so, but to avoid misleading anyone, it would be nice to see IMO on occasion rather than stating 'facts' as _you_ see them. 

That, in sum total was my point, which you obviously missed.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

PaulRivers said:


> Since we're talking ancedotal evidence here, I would like comment that I also found the 8r frame to have a much nicer ride than the 6r frame with the same tire pressure and tires.


Yes, and you posted that recently in another thread. (Key) difference being, you presented it clearly as your opinion/ observation/ experiences. Avery made some statements that were inaccurate, misleading and some, just plain wrong - all covered in my response.


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> Yes, and you posted that recently in another thread. (Key) difference being, you presented it clearly as your opinion/ observation/ experiences. Avery made some statements that were inaccurate, misleading and some, just plain wrong - all covered in my response.


Yup! I wasn't trying to disagree with anyone, just trying to add in my own personal, ancedotal experience in this thread.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*this is becoming comedy...*



PJ352 said:


> Everything you've posted did nothing more than substantiate my claim that you are posting your opinions, not fact. Obviously you're entitled to do so, but to avoid misleading anyone, it would be nice to see IMO on occasion rather than stating 'facts' as _you_ see them.
> 
> That, in sum total was my point, which you obviously missed.



i already showed you the facts in black and white, (RED and BLACK) many times over in the Trek forum, but you kept spouting off about TCT treks, which are below the new Madone's in every conceivable way (and older SSL's), but yet you insist they must be stiffer!! sure, Contador is going to ride the lower level frame-you are delusional. he rides the BEST frame Trek can provide him with bar none!

according to Specialized's site, the frames get stiffer as one goes up the ladder, from monocoque'd 6R version to the 8R AZ1 version and the FACT 11R IS construction..Tour tests and in house Specialized's prove it-PERIOD!!!
not subjective, not my opinion-FACT. and if you don't believe it go the Specy's site and read the FACT bit on carbon, yes, that is right chap, they don't even list the 6r frame, as it would not even register where the BMC frame is or they would have put it there, and marketed as being better. better to sell more bikes better..



don't take my word for it, ask other people, talk to some racers, leave the net surfing and go ride then form an opinion. but still look to objective lab results to either verify claims or refute them-as i already have..

el fin de la storia....


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

a_avery007 said:


> ...read the FACT bit on carbon, yes, that is right chap, they don't even list the 6r frame


I have read it, along with other documents relating to FACT carbon. Here's the one I used as reference in my previous post (covers 6r carbon and up)
http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/specialized/2006/FACT_Final_opt-1.pdf

What I did in the Trek forum, I'm doing here. That is, taking you to task for the drivel you present as facts. And I'll continue to do so as long as you continue. 

Post when you know and refrain when you don't know. You'll be posting a lot less.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*now use your deductive superpowers and figure it out..*



PJ352 said:


> What I did in the Trek forum, I'm doing here. That is, taking you to task for the drivel you present as facts. And I'll continue to do so as long as you continue.
> 
> Post when you know and refrain when you don't know. You'll be posting a lot less.



all the Treks and Specialized's:

http://www.fiets.nl/uploads/stijfheidsmetingen/0612.htm

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=08Tarmac

click on FACT link....

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2005&sid=05Tarmac

click on the link: Taking the Witchcraft Out of Composite Bicycle Frame

Tour Test 08..
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40266&start=0

now, if i have to create a comparison and contrast chart for you...
nahhhhhh..


all the bikes, all the objective tests for your eyeballs to fall out..

i will simplify it for you in Terms of Specialized's bike frames- more $$$ more stiffness, better riding frame..

one more time, more $$$ more stiffness, better riding frame..

nice sounding drivel that..


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*NO NO NO- what you did Slick is*

"have read it, along with other documents relating to FACT carbon. Here's the one I used as reference in my previous post (covers 6r carbon and up)
http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/...inal_opt-1.pdf"


use the FACT sheet that does NOT state NOR compare the Specialized FACT 6r carbon frame, triple monocoque construction, compact race design to the stiffness of the Specialized FACT 8r carbon frame, AZ1 construction, compact race design 

way way different Specialized FACT 8r carbon frame, Az1 construction, compact race design to Specialized FACT 6r carbon frame, triple monocoque construction, compact race design ..
yes not only different fibers but different lay up schedules...

i am done with this..let the people decide on their own.
glad you like your bike, it is a good one!!

have a great day...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

a_avery007 said:


> way way different AZ1 to Monocoque lay ups..
> yes not only different fibers but different lay up schedules......


:cryin: 


a_avery007 said:


> i am done with this..let the people decide on their own.
> glad you like your bike, it is a good one!!
> have a great day...


Thank you. You do the same.


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## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

*Sky - I tthought you went Trek Madonne?!*

So what's with the Specialized analysis?


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## lionheartdds (Mar 24, 2007)

Good grief Sky! How many bikes do plan on buying? Madones, and now Tarmacs? Are you building up to post on the "How Many bikes do you own" thread? hehehehe...What you really ought to be doing is buying the frame you want, and order the components you want. Build it, tweak it, or have your LBS do it. It's infinitely more satisfying to build your own, imho. See you on the "how many bikes do you own" thread soon...hehehe.


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## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

I have one bike. How many do you own?


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## lionheartdds (Mar 24, 2007)

Way too many...let's see...not including my wife and kid's bikes right? 9 bikes-yikes! 
'06 Trek 6000 hardtail-stock-
'05 Trek 1500 frame-Dura Ace drive train, Bontrager Race X lite wheels and components and saddle, Continental GP4000 tires-16 lbs 11 oz.
'06 Trek 1500 Discovery Channel paintscheme-Dura Ace/SRAM Force drive train, Winwood components,Fizik saddle, Bontrager Race X lite wheels, Hutchinson Discovery channel tires-16 lbs 9 oz
'06 Trek Madone SSLx frame (Discovery Channel-Lance Armstrong paint scheme) built up with Dura Ace drive train (except brakes-Bontrager Speed Limit brakes), Bontrager XXX lite components,Bontrager X lite pro saddle, Mavic Ksyrium SL wheels, Continental Supersonic tires/tubes, Winwood cages, carbon/titanium skewers-15 lbs even!
'06 Leader 736R-Ultegra drive train, Easton EC90 bars, seatpost, stem and fork, San Marco Aspide FX saddle, Easton Circuit wheelset, Continental Attack Force tires-17 lbs 9 oz
'06 Felt F3c-SRAM Force drive train, Easton EC90 SLX fork, KForce bars, Bontrager XXX lite stem, Alien seatpost, SMP Strike saddle, Mavic Ksyrium ES wheels, Continental Attack Force tires, Zero Grav brakeset-15 lbs 6 oz!
'07 no name titanium/carbon frame, Dura Ace/Ultegra drive train, Easton EC90 bars, Deda stem, Thompson seatpost, Bianchi fork, Specialized Avatar saddle, Bontrager Race Lite wheels, Continental GP 4000 tires-my heaviest modern bike at 18lbs 10 oz. built from spare parts just lying around. frame from ebay-unknown manufacturer-looked cool-rides awesome-doesn't feel like an almost 19 lb bike!
1970's (late '70s) Norco Avanti-stock-(my childhood bike in Canada)-36 lbs or so
1980's Fuji Sundance race bike-re-dressed in Brooks leather trim and saddle-otherwise stock-29 lbs.
Except for the stock bikes, I built my bikes up starting with frames, and bought components along the way. Much more fun than buying a stock bike off the shop rack or floor.
See you on the "how many bikes do you own" thread soon.


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