# They can't even get the TDF winner modern bits



## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

Anybody notice that Carlos Sastre is riding "obsolete" DA 7800 stuff on that Cervelo? ...and he's winning stages. If I were a big cheese at Shimano I would not be happy. I mean, overnight a box of DA 7900 to the mechanic and get the current offering on that bike ASAP. This is bad PR for them.  

brewster


photo courtesy of GrahamWatson.com


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## B15serv (Apr 27, 2008)

yea you would think theyd have upgraded the whole team. speaking of the stages lately is it just me or would you hate to be Danilo? thats gotta suck riding for hours and knowing that menchov is litetally attatched to your ass the whole time. I know that im one of those guys that hates the "being followed" feeling and it sucks bad enough for me when I see someone about a 1/4 mile back pop up on a frontage road.... i cant imagine having menchov act like a parasite for hours on end.


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## RSPDiver (Jun 3, 2006)

They can get them, but Carlos may not want to ride them. I think there was a discussion on here a month or so ago about equipment of the pros, namely regarding the 7900 stuff.


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## gray8110 (Dec 11, 2001)

As RSP said a lot of pros (especially Cervelo) are not liking 7900. The combination of 7900 and Cervelo's new internal cable routing has had shifting problems.


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

Yeah, this isn't uncommon in Formula 1 either. Often times a team will drop back to last years equipment while waiting for all the bugs to get ironed out of the new stuff. Thats what happened with Cervelo. They felt the 7800 was more durable and required less adjustments over time than the new 7900


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

Kinda like OP riding a Dogma instead of the Paris Carbon in 06. Good for him. Why be a slave to the marketing hype. He is there to win races/stages not sell groups.


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Also, since Cervelo are paying for their own groupsets, there's no obligation to please their sponsor by showcasing the 7900 groupset. Apparently the 7800 kit also works better with the Rotor Chainrings that Carlito uses.

Here's the skinny:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/new-cervlo-testteam-bikes-for-the-cobbled-classics-21113


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Same goes with SRAM sponsored teams - they use SRAM Force FD cages or something to that effect. At least, some of the riders do.

And, Astana runs Shimano 7801 chains on their SRAM equipped bikes. 

Additionally - Lance does NOT use a Bontrager saddle at all. So doesn't Alberto. No idea why Bontrager/Trek's site keeps saying Lance does when everyone (well, almost) knows that he uses a Concor light.


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## jcjordan (May 12, 2008)

uzziefly said:


> Same goes with SRAM sponsored teams - they use SRAM Force FD cages or something to that effect. At least, some of the riders do.
> 
> And, Astana runs Shimano 7801 chains on their SRAM equipped bikes.
> 
> ...


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

jcjordan said:


> uzziefly said:
> 
> 
> > Same goes with SRAM sponsored teams - they use SRAM Force FD cages or something to that effect. At least, some of the riders do.
> ...


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

brewster said:


> Anybody notice that Carlos Sastre is riding "obsolete" DA 7800 stuff on that Cervelo? ...and he's winning stages. If I were a big cheese at Shimano I would not be happy. I mean, overnight a box of DA 7900 to the mechanic and get the current offering on that bike ASAP. This is bad PR for them.
> 
> brewster
> 
> ...


My only question to you is this. Why is DA 7800 obsolete?


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i thought sastre was also using his bike from last year during some stages. i know boonen re-used his paris-roubaix frame. of course, he might have hocked this years frame to get some powder.

the 7900 shifting issue has been big this year. the first bad i heard came from thor. i guess they were having difficulty getting into the smallest cog during sprints. you know, where you need it the most.

as someone who still uses 9sp stuff, i like seeing 10 and 11 speed stuff rear their fickle heads. i also love seeing guys use the "lower" quality front mech cages.


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

MG537 said:


> My only question to you is this. Why is DA 7800 obsolete?


It's not.....mechanically at least. I put it in "quotes" to mean it's obsolete as far as the marketers are concerned since it's been replaced with 7900. It's humorously ironic to me to see the pros go out and win on "old" technology and then see all the advertising claims of huge advantages with the new equipment that shaves 12 grams and insists we can't do without.  

brewster


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## logansites (Jan 4, 2007)

whatever happened to Sastre swearing by the new cervelo S3?


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

I'm sure if Shimano paid enough he'd be riding 7900.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

California L33 said:


> I'm sure if Shimano paid enough he'd be riding 7900.


I don't know. I think Sastre is probably doing alright, and even back in his CSC days he didn't seem to care for trends or what the rest of his team was doing. I think Sastre is pretty picky about the equipment that he uses and he is going to use what he likes the best regardless of what he is "supposed" to use. At least it seems that way to me.

I also recall that when Columbia High Road made the Dura Ace "upgrade" this year that Mark Cavendish held on to his 7800. I don't remember if he was using it in the Giro, but I do remember that he and a few others on his team were using 7800 in the ToC.


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## cjump (Feb 19, 2009)

also the SRM has not been redesigned to work with the 7900 crank. i remember reading somewhere that katie comptons mechanic said that DA7900 was crap compared to 7800 in terms of shifting and durability. why go to a produce that isn't as good with a sport like cycling where bike is so much a part of the performance factor.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

Another question I have is why they're not using Di2, with the 7800 brifters. Seems like the reviews of how well it shifts are incredible. I'd like to hear a pro's take on how good it really is.
In one of the ads in some magazine, it looks like Cav is winning at the line vs someone riding di2, while cav clearly has the 7900 brifters. It could be the MSR finale and Hausler...
I rode my old steed with chorus yesterday, while I finished my 500 mile tune up on my new tarmac.
today, I was again amazed at the improved performance of i-link cables. I wonder if the pros ever "upgrade" to nokons or i-links for road bikes, rather than just tt bikes...


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

jhamlin38 said:


> Another question I have is why they're not using Di2, with the 7800 brifters. Seems like the reviews of how well it shifts are incredible. I'd like to hear a pro's take on how good it really is.
> In one of the ads in some magazine, it looks like Cav is winning at the line vs someone riding di2, while cav clearly has the 7900 brifters. It could be the MSR finale and Hausler...
> I rode my old steed with chorus yesterday, while I finished my 500 mile tune up on my new tarmac.
> today, I was again amazed at the improved performance of i-link cables. I wonder if the pros ever "upgrade" to nokons or i-links for road bikes, rather than just tt bikes...


Please explain why or how somebody would use the mechanical 7800 brifters on Di2 (which relies on switches to actuate a servo)...? Ergonomically the Di2 brifter feels like a combination of 7800 (thinner diameter) and 7900 (flat top).


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## G A /\/\ /\/\ A (Apr 27, 2009)

I road a Di2 equipped bike yesterday. The front derailleur seemed to be 99% of the coolness. 

Basically, the FD "autotrims" so that you never rub chain on the FD, even in odd gear combos like 39/11. The rear deraiileur was slighty faster than my DA7800, but not much. There was not a whole lot of positive engagement or feedback on the rear gear changes while the FD changes where noted with a cool "zwhrt" sound.

It's heavier than 7900 and hella expensive. Maybe they should sell it to star trek fans.

PS: I tried sram red right after the Di2 bike and much preferred it...even being comfortable with my DA7800 for several years.


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## foxadam (Mar 3, 2007)

brewster said:


> Anybody notice that Carlos Sastre is riding "obsolete" DA 7800 stuff on that Cervelo? ...and he's winning stages. If I were a big cheese at Shimano I would not be happy. I mean, overnight a box of DA 7900 to the mechanic and get the current offering on that bike ASAP. This is bad PR for them.
> 
> brewster
> 
> ...


Wow - someone sure has drank the Kool Aid, huh? You really think that the TdF champion couldn't get whatever he wanted for his bike? C'mon... They toss gruppos and carbon wheels around like you toss cable ends.


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## foxadam (Mar 3, 2007)

jhamlin38 said:


> Another question I have is why they're not using Di2, with the 7800 brifters. Seems like the reviews of how well it shifts are incredible. I'd like to hear a pro's take on how good it really is.
> *In one of the ads in some magazine, it looks like Cav is winning at the line vs someone riding di2, while cav clearly has the 7900 brifters.* It could be the MSR finale and Hausler...
> I rode my old steed with chorus yesterday, while I finished my 500 mile tune up on my new tarmac.
> today, I was again amazed at the improved performance of i-link cables. I wonder if the pros ever "upgrade" to nokons or i-links for road bikes, rather than just tt bikes...


Yup, definitely the reason why Cav took Milan-San Remo... his shifters.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*maybe, just maybe*

the new stuff isn't as good, reliable as the old
maybe the pros want something they can count on
sprinters need to know their bikes will shift how they want them, when they want them without hassle

maybe, just maybe this is telling us something


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

foxadam said:


> Wow - someone sure has drank the Kool Aid, huh? You really think that the TdF champion couldn't get whatever he wanted for his bike? C'mon...


Frankly, no they can't. This is a contractual business deal for these high profile advertisers. The teams and riders are paid to be live billboards and rolling TV spots for them. The bunch of marketing/advertising suits sitting in the board room are not going to be interested in catering to tempermental, opinionated riders. They are interested in selling more products to you and me and pro sponsorship is how they accomplish that. It's about the money.

If Sastre or other top names think the new product offering is not good enough for them, what makes you think "normal" people are going to be convinced to buy it. DA 7900 has already taken some bad press because teams complaining about this and that. This is a huge problem and a giant red flag from the sponsor's perspective.

I'm sure that there were many heated conversations between the USPS team and Shimano back a few years ago when Lance wanted to use Shimano pedals and brake levers that hadn't been produced in 10 years. You saw after that Shimano created a whole new DA pedal more similar to the old 7401s Lance prefers instead of having him win races on products that consumers can't even buy if they wanted to. The old 7401 levers also disappeared from his bike and were replaced by the generic DA/Ultegra brake levers that were currently in production. I would be willing to bet that was a compromise solution and that Shimano wanted him to ride with both STI levers. Before that in 1999, the now classic unbadged Litespeed Blade TT bike Lance used because Trek didn't have a suitable TT bike of thier own. It made Trek look bad. What happened after that? Trek unveils a brand new TT bike design. Coincidence? I think not.

By the way, what flavor do you like?

brewster


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## foxadam (Mar 3, 2007)

brewster said:


> Frankly, no they can't. This is a contractual business deal for these high profile advertisers. The teams and riders are paid to be live billboards and rolling TV spots for them. The bunch of marketing/advertising suits sitting in the board room are not going to be interested in catering to tempermental, opinionated riders. They are interested in selling more products to you and me and pro sponsorship is how they accomplish that. It's about the money.
> 
> If Sastre or other top names think the new product offering is not good enough for them, what makes you think "normal" people are going to be convinced to buy it. DA 7900 has already taken some bad press because teams complaining about this and that. This is a huge problem and a giant red flag from the sponsor's perspective.
> 
> ...


Cervelo Test Team is not sponsored by Shimano. They buy their own Shimano gear with their own funds so they can choose whatever they want. 

Also, of all teams, Cervelo Test Team seems to give their riders leeway in this regard, with riders choosing different bikes (not always the most recent frame).

So no, they are not contracted to ride Shimano as a live billboard as being told by someone in a board room.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

brewster said:


> Anybody notice that Carlos Sastre is riding "obsolete" DA 7800 stuff on that Cervelo? ...and he's winning stages. If I were a big cheese at Shimano I would not be happy. I mean, overnight a box of DA 7900 to the mechanic and get the current offering on that bike ASAP. This is bad PR for them.
> 
> brewster
> 
> ...


Eddie Van Halen played for YEARS on a guitar he made with pickups he wound and dipped in wax to get the sound he wanted. 

Even after he got "Sponsored" by Kramer, all he did was slap the logo on his homemade guitar. 

I get what yer saying, but if the rider likes something and it works, sometimes you let it be.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

If anyone cared to even look into the issue, instead of pontificating about how DA7900 is crap, they would learn that the 7900 shifters/frt derail does not work with Rotor cranks/rings. In fact, Rotor even provided the team with a whole bunch of FSA, SRAM, and old DA cranks because their original didn't work well with 7800 either. So it seems like it's Rotor's quality/performance issue, but you all think it's a 7900 issue.
On top of Rotor being a poor product, has anyone bothered asking why no one is riding the new, much-hyped P4? Unlike Shimano, Cervelo is actually a team sponsor. And the TITLE sponsor! WTH is the entire team NOT on P4's?


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Yeah, like I pointed out in post #7 in this thread...


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

cjump said:


> also the SRM has not been redesigned to work with the 7900 crank. i remember reading somewhere that katie comptons mechanic said that DA7900 was crap compared to 7800 in terms of shifting and durability. why go to a produce that isn't as good with a sport like cycling where bike is so much a part of the performance factor.


I think you read wrong, or are just mistaken.
From cyclingnews @ '09 World's...
"The most obvious change from Compton's set-up of last season is the switch she has made from Campagnolo to Shimano Dura-Ace 7900. This latest iteration of Shimano's flagship road package is rare even at this elite level of the sport (and that includes the big stars like Sven Nys) though Compton reportedly had to go out and buy her three groupsets with her own money. Possibly because of this, many of the logos on the new components are covered either with tape or a sticker of someone who does pay her to use its products - namely Enduro, which provides its ceramic ZERØ bottom bracket and front and rear derailleur pulleys."

Me thinks that if she thought 7800 was better, she would have bought 7800.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

mtbbmet said:


> If anyone cared to even look into the issue, instead of pontificating about how DA7900 is crap, they would learn that the 7900 shifters/frt derail does not work with Rotor cranks/rings. In fact, Rotor even provided the team with a whole bunch of FSA, SRAM, and old DA cranks because their original didn't work well with 7800 either. So it seems like it's Rotor's quality/performance issue, but you all think it's a 7900 issue.
> On top of Rotor being a poor product, has anyone bothered asking why no one is riding the new, much-hyped P4? Unlike Shimano, Cervelo is actually a team sponsor. And the TITLE sponsor! WTH is the entire team NOT on P4's?


P4's are still _very_ hard to come by. The fast TT guy on their Giro team did have one though. It is also unclear if the new P4 will pass the stricter UCI aero enforcement rules (especially the water bottle/fairing which they didn't use in the Giro).


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

jhamlin38 said:


> Another question I have is why they're not using Di2, with the 7800 brifters.


because they're sh*te really, when you see the pro's not using them despite them being the latest and 'greatest' clearly they are not, I distinctly remember a german gerolsteiner rider in the tour last year in a break and being stuck in the big ring with the super brilliant overly fantastically simple and clever innovative electronic shifting 'white elephants' on his bike, whike going up steep climb (everyone else in the 39) and labouring like a pregnant horse to get to the top of it with the rest of the group.

I bet he bought 9 pairs that evening just so he could have the pleasure of breaking them in half.


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## 1stmh (Apr 7, 2007)

One of he best and fastest riders at my club is on DA 9 speed.

It's not about the bike or the equipment.


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

1stmh said:


> One of he best and fastest riders at my club is on DA


Still Dura-Ace.....


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## G A /\/\ /\/\ A (Apr 27, 2009)

I just can't see how shimano can have a clear target of sram red, have years to make a better grouppo, and then come out with a system that has had shifting problems, durability issues, and is 100 grams heavier than sram red!

To me that is loserish. Shimano has jumped the shark.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

G A /\/\ /\/\ A said:


> I just can't see how shimano can have a clear target of sram red, have years to make a better grouppo, and then come out with a system that has had shifting problems, durability issues, and is 100 grams heavier than sram red!
> 
> To me that is loserish. Shimano has jumped the shark.


Please explain to me how the 7900 has shifting and durability problems.
Sure Red is lighter, by half a pre ride piss. But it does not work nearly as well as either Centaur or Ultegra. The brakes are junk, the chain is so bad that NOBODY uses it. Most SPONSORED riders don't use the cassette either. Pretty much all pros have the mechanic change the plate on the derailluer. But it's 7900 that is junk because it does not work with ROTOR cranks? Seriously? You probably think that Zipps are good wheels too. 
The only thing Shimano is behind on is marketing apparently, cause you have bought SRAM's marketing hook line and sinker. Either that or the only thing you care about is weight.


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