# Team Machine: Di2 or mech - CAN'T SWITCH!



## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

It seems that the 2012 Team Machine frames that are Di2 compatible will not be able to accept a mechanical drivetrain, if you ever choose to switch back over. I think electronic shifting is here to stay (this time around), but this doesn't seem to be a wise move for BMC in my opinion.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Sure it is. They sell you a Di2 frame and when you want to go mechanical, they get to sell you another frame. 

I believe a number of Di2 specific frames from other mfgrs don't have the cable guides and stops necessary for mechanical. Of course, there's nothing preventing you from putting Di2 on a mech frame.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

looigi said:


> I believe a number of Di2 specific frames from other mfgrs don't have the cable guides and stops necessary for mechanical. Of course, there's nothing preventing you from putting Di2 on a mech frame.


That's what I was thinking but there is one thing. Some guys drill into their frames to mount Di2 wiring. Obviously that could have negative warranty implications.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

looigi said:


> Sure it is. They sell you a Di2 frame and when you want to go mechanical, they get to sell you another frame.
> 
> I believe a number of Di2 specific frames from other mfgrs don't have the cable guides and stops necessary for mechanical. Of course, there's nothing preventing you from putting Di2 on a mech frame.


That might happen, but I'm not so sure. I work in large shop, and we seem to have customers that feel strong about either way. Some don't have any interest to forge ahead with electronic shifting, while others have said it's been what they're waiting for. Time will tell.

As far as putting Di2 on a mechanical frame goes, one reason I would want electronics is because it allows you to clean up things like wires and cables from the frame. I'm actually buying a Team Machine with Red, even though I don't care for SRAM. It's just so I can have a mechanical frame when the new DA mechnical is released.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Lots of companies have Di2 specific frames. No big deal.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Lots of companies have Di2 specific frames. No big deal.


I know that _some_ other ones do, but who are these "lots"?

Maybe it's not a big deal, but why wouldn't a company manufacture the frame to take either. Wouldn't it would come down to just one extra hole not used if Di2 is run? ...and possibly make manufacturing costs lower?


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## holy cromoly (Nov 9, 2008)

BMC is a performance oriented brand, so I am not surprise they have taken the plunge to make a Di2 only frame. This is why I like and ride a BMC, they are not hesitant to take leaps forward.

This reminds me of when mountain bikes started to come with disc only mounts, no rim brakes mounts. There were many riders voicing their concerns and wanting both mounts for versatility, which is normal. In due time, disc have taken over the mountain bike scene and no one really has that concern anymore.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

holy cromoly said:


> This reminds me of when mountain bikes started to come with disc only mounts, no rim brakes mounts. There were many riders voicing their concerns and wanting both mounts for versatility, which is normal. In due time, disc have taken over the mountain bike scene and no one really has that concern anymore.


This is an excellent and very scary point. Unlike disc brakes, which I can bleed, rebuild or otherwise work on myself, electronic shifting systems will never be something I can service. If in the future all high end frames are electric only, I'll be a sad puppy.  I hear Di2 / EPS works great, but I just don't want batteries, servo motors, wiring harnesses, LED's, diodes etc on my bike. I cant work on any of that stuff! :mad2:


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## holy cromoly (Nov 9, 2008)

BunnV said:


> This is an excellent and very scary point. Unlike disc brakes, which I can bleed, rebuild or otherwise work on myself, electronic shifting systems will never be something I can service. If in the future all high end frames are electric only, I'll be a sad puppy.  I hear Di2 / EPS works great, but I just don't want batteries, servo motors, wiring harnesses, LED's, diodes etc on my bike. I cant work on any of that stuff! :mad2:


Coudn't agree more about the not wanting batteries on a bicycle. To me, the mechanical simplicity of a bicycle is one of it's wonderful qualities. I like cables so much, I still run Avid BB7 mech discs over hydraulic brakes (tried hydros, but went back).

Despite my fondness of simplicity, I do think the days of electronic shifting is here and we'll see it on more and more racing level bikes, especially with the lower price point on Ultegra Di2. Given Shimano's record of trickle down technology, I wouldn't be surprise to see a 105 Di2 in about 2-3 years.

I test rode a Di2 setup recently and thought, "Wow, I get it". And after one ride, I can understand why one would prefer the light tough electronic shifting (like clicking a mouse button, in both shift directions). Which leads me to think that a preference like that is so polar, that they probably woundn't be concerned about a frame that could handle mech shifting anymore.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

holy cromoly said:


> Which leads me to think that a preference like that is so polar, that they probably woundn't be concerned about a frame that could handle mech shifting anymore.


You're probably right about that. 

Disc brakes are one thing. But IMHO, when you introduce batteries/electronics to the parts of the bike that make it necessary to function (fully), you are treading on sacred ground. :devil:


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## holy cromoly (Nov 9, 2008)

marathon marke said:


> Disc brakes are one thing. But IMHO, when you introduce batteries/electronics to the parts of the bike that make it necessary to function (fully), you are treading on sacred ground. :devil:


I agree. There is something pure about a bike's simple need of just just human power to propel it makes it special. Adding batteries, wiring harness and a logic board to it seems wrong indeed.


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## Wilier_speed (Jun 1, 2008)

holy cromoly said:


> I agree. There is something pure about a bike's simple need of just just human power to propel it makes it special. Adding batteries, wiring harness and a logic board to it seems wrong indeed.


Totally agree.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2012)

Our experience with customers is similar to this thread. People are either for or against the idea of electronic shifting but don't switch back and forth. It is expensive to make a frame that can do both without compromising either system but check out the Look 695 for a great example of how its done right.


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## scirocco (Dec 7, 2010)

BunnV said:


> If in the future all high end frames are electric only, I'll be a sad puppy.  I hear Di2 / EPS works great, but I just don't want batteries, servo motors, wiring harnesses, LED's, diodes etc on my bike. I cant work on any of that stuff! :mad2:


Yeah, but you won't need to work on it. Look at cars. In the 70s and 80s' I was always tinkering with my car, setting the points, replacing blown light bulbs etc. I have never ever needed to touch any of that stuff on my 2006 car. Bikes will end up the same way.


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## thehighend (Mar 9, 2010)

scirocco said:


> Yeah, but you won't need to work on it. Look at cars. In the 70s and 80s' I was always tinkering with my car, setting the points, replacing blown light bulbs etc. I have never ever needed to touch any of that stuff on my 2006 car. Bikes will end up the same way.


If it's an '06 Scirocco, wait a few more years and you will understand the concerns some have voiced.

Adding complexity and computer technology to products benefits manufacturers because such products become obsolete and/or break more quickly.

I had my film Canon SLR camera body for 10 years. I went through my first 3 Canon digital SLR bodies in 5 years. The benefits of going from film to digital were compelling, so I'd say both consumers benefit, despite the shorter product cycles. In the case of bikes, the benefits of "going digital" are far less compelling. Taking a frame down from 4 wires to 2, at the expense of adding new wires... battery... motors... charger... hardly seems like a benefit.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

thehighend said:


> In the case of bikes, the benefits of "going digital" are far less compelling. Taking a frame down from 4 wires to 2, at the expense of adding new wires... battery... motors... charger... hardly seems like a benefit.


+1 
The day I own electric shifting on a bike is the day that mechanical groups are no longer available for sale and I have no choice...which of course is never!


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

We're probably getting a bit OT here, but my aversion to electronic shifting isn't principally due to its complexity or early obsolescence, but rather on the principle that a bike should be ridden and rideable without any external source of power. I guess if you put a dyno hub on the front wheel and used it to provide the juice to the Di battery that would overcome my objection, then I'd have to fall back to the excuses that it's too complicated and will become obsolete.


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## uncrx2003 (Jul 17, 2010)

My new SLR01 will have Di2. If I like it, I'm pretty sure I'll never go back to mechanical. From what I've read so far, there is no question I'll like it.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

uncrx2003 said:


> My new SLR01 will have Di2. If I like it, I'm pretty sure I'll never go back to mechanical. From what I've read so far, there is no question I'll like it.


You haven't tried it it yet? I have, and EPS too. It works great. The only little thing is there's a barely perceptible lag between clicking the button/lever and shifting, but nothing consequential. There's not really anything not to like as far as performance goes. Enjoy.


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## uncrx2003 (Jul 17, 2010)

looigi said:


> You haven't tried it it yet? I have, and EPS too. It works great. The only little thing is there's a barely perceptible lag between clicking the button/lever and shifting, but nothing consequential. There's not really anything not to like as far as performance goes. Enjoy.


Nope, never tried it. I'm the type that always embrace technology. I didn't want to spend that money before. When I saw the deal on CC for that bike, I have to get it.


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## B05 (Jul 31, 2011)

this thread is making me sad. I'm looking to make the leap to Di2 next year but I have no funds for a new frame.

Does anyone have pictures/instructions/link to a very clean Di2 external wiring set up?


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## midlife_xs's (Jun 18, 2004)

Electronic shifting is relatively new. Yet there is already an improvement and Shimano did away with the battery holder attached to the bikes downtube. Now, the battery is secured inside the seat tube for the D12. 

Someday just like a bicycle computer, they will also introduce wireless technology. Although it is very tempting to join the electronic shifting now, I think it is prudent to wait still.


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## B05 (Jul 31, 2011)

I visited my LBS today and the owner showed me a frame that has Di2 external wiring set up and it's not as bad at all. It really depends on who's doing it.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

B05 said:


> I visited my LBS today and the owner showed me a frame that has Di2 external wiring set up and it's not as bad at all. It really depends on who's doing it.


I never had a problem with how the bike was wired. My post was about that there was no choice to switch back to mechical if you ever wanted to. I've been told by our rep that a new frame design is in the works. One of the reasons why I've kept from the electrical option is that I refuse to buy a frame that doesn't have an internal battery.


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