# toe overlap - any solution?



## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

I picked up a new-to-me bike in the fall for my winter bike/rain bike/around town bike.

It's a nice steel frame, a few years old. I have a few other road bikes, including two other Italian steel bikes.

The problem with this one is that the toe overlap is pretty darn bad, to the point that I have to be very careful if I'm stopped and starting to not turn my wheel a bit too much and send it into my foot. It could cause a pretty sweet 0 mph crash. Or, it could lead me to snapping off a front fender. (I've now snapped two Crud Mudguards off in the past few weeks. Ugh, one wrong turn of the wheel...hello new fender set.)

I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to minimize the toe overlap issue.

- I am using some MKS platform pedals w/ size L toe clips (all other road bikes are clipless)

- It's a 53 cm frameset, which is my normal size. Maybe a 52.5, but nothing crazy.

- I wear size 43 shoes, nothing crazy for my height/size.

- I don't even think the toe overlap was this bad on my track bike, which I also use toe clips on.

- Using size 23 tires.

I'm trying to be careful and pay more attention when I'm starting up at lights, but I'm wondering if anything can be done. I'm thinking the only thing is to use clipless pedals, as this would put less of my foot in front of the pedal axle.

Ideas?


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Oh, and I did fail to mention that the bike showed up with 175 crankarms on it. Very strange length for a bike this size.

I'm changing them out for 170s as soon as I can find the proper, matching model. I'd rather not go to 165s, as I use 170s on all my bikes.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

First, just make a good visual check that the fork isn't bent from a front impact. If everything is fine, with the frame and fork, the only things that can affect it (that you'd want to mess with) is the toe clip size, shoe size/location, crank arm length (minimal - don't change cranks over 2.5mm) and tire size.

I've never failed to have overlap, so it is something I just deal with.

You might consider Power Grips to replace your toe clips. They work well and don't stick out in front.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

nayr497 said:


> I've now snapped two Crud Mudguards off in the past few weeks. Ugh, one wrong turn of the wheel...hello new fender set.


Your problem is easily solved by learning how to keep your front wheel pointing straight ahead during the first few pedal strokes of a start. Because of the slow speed and the off-center load during a start (especially during the standing phase), the front wheel does want to do strange things. But with concentration and a bit of muscle it's not hard to keep the front wheel pointing straight ahead.


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## durielk (Jan 8, 2011)

That is why they have 650 wheels.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I'm with wim here. 4 of my 5 bikes have overlap, my fixed being the "worst", even with 170 cranks, clipless pedals, and size 44 shoes with a 57cm frame. And, believe me, fixed vs. free can exacerbate the issue. But for me, it just isn't an issue.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for the replies! Yep, the fork is straight. Changing the cranks so that I'm using 170s on all of my bikes, so my legs/fit/etc. are the same on all of them.

wim - okay, I guess I'll just work on this & pay a bit more attention. I'm a pretty avid cyclist so have solid bike control, but maybe my track record of late shows otherwise

Actually, I should relate the circumstances. First broken fender happened when a car was puttering along around 15 mph slower than the rest of traffic and while waiting for it to pass I backpedaled and tried to track stand rather than put my foot down. Dumb move. Backpedaled, one foot caught the fender, snap.

Second happened when I decided I needed to have a slash. Was very cold in the rain, not that happy about being on the bike at the time. Stopped on a small hill. Getting going, cold, not paying attention, kicked fender, snap!

I guess I just need to work on my control & pay more attention.

Thanks for all the feedback & suggestions. I appreciate it.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

I've had toe overlap for years and never noticed it until the other day while fiddling around waiting for a light to change. If I can ride tens of thousands of miles without even noticing it, how big of a problem is it really?


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Toe clip size*



nayr497 said:


> Thanks for the replies! Yep, the fork is straight. Changing the cranks so that I'm using 170s on all of my bikes, so my legs/fit/etc. are the same on all of them.
> 
> wim - okay, I guess I'll just work on this & pay a bit more attention. I'm a pretty avid cyclist so have solid bike control, but maybe my track record of late shows otherwise.
> Thanks for all the feedback & suggestions. I appreciate it.


One more thing: I think that for size 43 shoes you probably should be on medium toe clips instead of large. Not a huge difference, but it would give you a bit more clearance, especially since you're running fenders.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

I can't believe you've never had toe overlap with 53 cm frames before. But, that said.

Do or did any of those other bikes have fenders? Fenders make a huge difference as they add quite a bit to the wheel diameter - an inch easily. I just put together a commuting bike on a cyclocross frame and there's no, or very little toe overlap w/ the 32mm tires alone, but it's there with the fenders.

But I've always had toe overlap, on every pure road bike I've ever owned (at least as far as I can remember). I've just never given it a second thought and dealing with it is just part of riding the bike. 

If this has happened to you so much lately, it's not the bikes fault. As grand dad used to say "you have to be smarter than the dog." 

I also think the crank arms are part of the issue, but not a whole lot. Changing them down to your preferred 170 might make just enough difference. I don't understand why the guy above said not to change crank arms more than 2.5mm - you should change them to whatever length you want and/or are used to.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Camilo said:


> I can't believe you've never had toe overlap with 53 cm frames before.


hell, I have overlap on all my bikes, and I ride between 58-61. 

It's simply not an issue, normally. Fenders can make it a bit more troublesome, but not for a bike that 'should' have fenders. it's when we do bastardizations of putting fenders on race bikes that we get into trouble. 

Yeah, I know I'm being small minded.


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## iMax (May 15, 2012)

It is an issue. To be precise, the ultrashort wheelbase of race bikes is a 3-fold-issue:
- toe overlap
- nervous steering (especially downhill on ultralight frames)
- longer brake distance
Those are the reasons I did not update my steel frame since 25 years, and I'm willing to wait further until the bike industry finally wakes up.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

iMax said:


> It is an issue. To be precise, the ultrashort wheelbase of race bikes is a 3-fold-issue:
> - toe overlap
> - nervous steering (especially downhill on ultralight frames)
> - longer brake distance
> Those are the reasons I did not update my steel frame since 25 years, and I'm willing to wait further until the bike industry finally wakes up.


Can you pease explain?


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

nayr497 said:


> Ideas?


Switch to 650c or 650b wheels


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*???*



iMax said:


> It is an issue. To be precise, the ultrashort wheelbase of race bikes is a 3-fold-issue:
> - toe overlap
> - nervous steering (especially downhill on ultralight frames)
> - longer brake distance
> Those are the reasons I did not update my steel frame since 25 years, and I'm willing to wait further until the bike industry finally wakes up.


What prompted you to ressurect such an old post?

Toe overlap is a function of the bikes front-center dimension, not the wheelbase.

While is motion at any descent speed, particularly descending, the wheel is never turned enough for toe overlap to be a problem. It's only a problem if you get your foot on the wrong side of the tire at a stop sign and when making a u-turn.

Braking distance? That has no relevance to toe overlap or wheelbase.

If you want a frame with a long front-center, look at Colnago. Most have relatively long front-centers, particularly in the smaller sizes.


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## iMax (May 15, 2012)

C-40 said:


> Braking distance? That has no relevance to toe overlap or wheelbase.


I disagree. Braking is limited to the point where your rear wheel is lifting. The further your front wheel is apart from your center of gravity, the stronger brake force you may apply without risking a somersault.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)




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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

iMax said:


> Those are the reasons I did not update my steel frame since 25 years, and I'm willing to wait further until the bike industry finally wakes up.


Suit yourself. There's plenty of frames available that do not have what you call "this issue". You're free to avail yourself of one of these, or even go to a frame builder and have them put together a custom build to your personal specifications. There's no reason to come in here stomping your little foot, and whining about "the bike industry" not waking up. The industry builds what people want. Looks like most people aren't interested in what you want. Deal with it.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Pirx said:


> There's plenty of frames available that do not have what you call "this issue".


Well, that's the thing. Complaining about toe overlap on a go-fast bicycle is like complaining about low ground clearance on a Porsche 991.


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## iMax (May 15, 2012)

wim said:


> Well, that's the thing. Complaining about toe overlap on a go-fast bicycle is like complaining about low ground clearance on a Porsche 991.


That's an interesting comparison, as I was told Porsches have one of the best brakes around. While race bikes are quite the opposite, they have the worst and most risky braking of any 2-wheel vehicle - due to the short front-to-center distance.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*nonsense...*



iMax said:


> I disagree. Braking is limited to the point where your rear wheel is lifting. The further your front wheel is apart from your center of gravity, the stronger brake force you may apply without risking a somersault.


I've ridden the shortest front-center frames made, like the first year Cervelo R3 in the 51cm size. I ride steep descents in the Colorado mountains. If you brake too hard, you'll lock up the front wheel and the tire will skid, but you won't flip over. The difference between a short front-center and a long front-center is only 3-4%, like the difference between 565mm and 585mm. 

The only time a bike is likely to flip is at very low speed, combined with the rider leaning forward. Combine that with hard braking and you could flip.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

iMax said:


> While race bikes are quite the opposite, they have the worst and most risky braking of any 2-wheel vehicle - due to the short front-to-center distance.


You mean like so:

View attachment 257245


I submit that you have no clue what you are talking about.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

last time i flipped a bike over the front wheel I was 12 years old and riding a Raleigh 3 speed, with "british configuration " on the brakes (right = front) I was showing off for a bunch of girls at the shopping center (yep...pre mall days) and i stood and leaned forward to un-weight the rear wheel and grabbed a handful of what i THOUGHT was rear brake to leave a long black stripe in front of them.. I ended up laying on the sidewalk at the girls feet on my back. I suspect they were not impressed!

All 5 of my bikes have toe overlap and i never even think about it, it has never been an issue and I don't even THINK about flipping my bike end over end as a result of using the front brakes....It just ain't gonna happen.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Many years ago, I had a bike with overlap. Starting from rest is a bit of a problem as you have to take care to hold your line and minimize steering input. Correct riding technique should take care of the rest. For example if you make a fairly sharp turn, stop pedalling. The inside foot should be high and the outside foot should be low. If you're not pedalling, your feet won't be in a position to hit the front wheel.

No pedalling is not a hard and fast rule, but it is a good place to begin. With a bit of experience you'll get a sense of how much you can turn and not touch your feet.


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## Oasisbill (Jan 15, 2011)

Some solutions to what really isn't a problem:
More fork rake/curved forks
170 or 172.5 cranks
No fenders
Medium size clips
650 wheels
Move your cleat forward under your shoe
Get used to it


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## iMax (May 15, 2012)

C-40 said:


> If you brake too hard, you'll lock up the front wheel and the tire will skid, but you won't flip over.


Are you sure you did this test on a dry road? I can lift my rear tire anytime, without leaning forward, using one finger on my front brake.


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## iMax (May 15, 2012)

Touch0Gray said:


> .It just ain't gonna happen.


Good for you.
I do hear first hand stories of road bikers who wake up in hospital, with no glue what happened.


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## Aseglin (Mar 22, 2012)

I had this problem...landed up with a custom frame!


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## scryan (Jan 24, 2011)

Toe over lap, and front brakes sending you over the bars... 

Can I ask that we add tips on how to avoid having your ankle broken by clipless pedals?


Seriously though... How long have you delt with the overlap for? I have none now, but I used to have really big cages on my pedals that cause a lot of overlap. And it was never one even close to an issue? 
There was simply no time where I was turning hard while pedaling hard...When you absolutely HAVE to pedal while turning hard, put your inside foot forward and ratchet the crank to keep yourself moving forward. I only really did this in parking lots and around campus... and it was always times were I was going very slow, and only pedaling enough to maintain speed/stay upright... which is very easy to do by ratching the crank. Took like 3 days of paying attention while biking across campus to get it down.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*well....*



iMax said:


> Are you sure you did this test on a dry road? I can lift my rear tire anytime, without leaning forward, using one finger on my front brake.


If you're sitting on the saddle when this happens, then the bike is setup poorly. It's rare when anyone, including expert fitters, actually measure the front to rear weight balance on a bike. I also find that brakes capable of being locked up with a single finger are a poor choice. Try Campy. Their brakes have much better modulation and require a sustantial effort to lock a wheel.


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