# Tour Stage 11: 148k - Four Cimbs and Summit Finish



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

I haven't seen Stage 10, but it sounds like my kind of racing. Once the leader has a large gap, we usually get some good breaks. When this happens in the mountains, we are treated to some great racing. And it sounds like that's what Stage 10 delivered. 

Will this stage win allow Tommy Voeckler to shed his camera-hogging princess label? I can't answer that until I see it. But if he was able to hang with Jens and Scaponi, let an attack get some space and then assassinate it for the win, I might have to stop making jokes.

Stage 11 is a monster. It reminds me of The Demon rollercoaster at Great American: not super long but filled with historic thrills. HC to HC loop-to-loop to start. Not enough? Okay, how about a Cat2? Still not enough? Let's finish with a 19.5k Cat1 summit finish. 

It would be great to see more riding like today, and I imagine that is what will happen. But who will get in that group. Will LL Sanchez get a chance? Hoogerland gut it out? Gesink find something? Or is this going to a tall, super thin, unknown mountain goat ?


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

anyone think schleck can take this? it would be cool if he could find his yarbles. 

also, what tactics do you guys see? get a good rider, say ten dam, and a nice group attcking those first two climbs to burn out sky? can liquigas, bmc and radioshack work together to force sky's hand early on? this should be a good day.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I expect to see a little more GC action than we saw today; I would really like things to tighten up a bit at the top of the GC. 

I hate to say it but I think that things right now are getting a bit boring. The overwhelming Sky dominance is impressive to see but the strategy of getting a little bit of a lead early in the race and then just neutralizing everything for the rest is one that works but kind of kills the race. It is like 2001 all over again. 

I think the race organizers expected it to come down to the final time trial. I really hope it does. Maybe Evans/Nibali/VDB can claw enough back in the mountains to make things competitive in the last time trial. If Evans can regain the form that he had in the final ITT last year, maybe a crushing Wiggins dominance isn't inevitable. Wiggins has said several times that he would have struggled to beat Evans in the final ITT last year.


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## flyrunride (May 2, 2012)

Stage 10 was entertaining but I hope with more climbs tomorrow more attacks will come. Those trying to get to the podium or improve their standings should work together and put pressure on the leaders. Maybe we'll see Frank Schleck do something?:idea:


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

The last climb isn't that hard.










https://www.letour.fr/PHOTOS/TDF/2012/1100/PROFILCOLSCOTES_4.jpg

For the gc to get time tomorrow, they need to isolate Wiggins much earlier. It will be either a tough day or a boring one.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

foto said:


> The last climb isn't that hard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is as hard as they make it.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

I hope Liqui BMC Shack light it up early on to force Sky's hand. To not be burning matches on this stage is a bit silly, IMHO.


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## CrazyCuz2K (Sep 8, 2009)

lol, this is after 2 HC climbs and a CAT 2, by then the leaders will be isolated, Wiggins will probably only have Froome left. Radioshack Nissan Trek will probably have 3 riders, and then the handful of race leaders. This is where hopefully, like today with Rolland and Van Den Broeck, they start making alliances and attack Wiggins. I think they can drop him if they keep on making him chase them. I think Schleck can win the stage since he's 8 min back and Sky will let him go off in a breakaway. Meanwhile they can mark with Monfort, Zubelda, and Kloden and reattack if they ever catch up to the breakaway.

Unfortunately, no other team has that kind of ammunition to burn except for Sky. TJ showed that he can't keep up with the big boys on the tough climbs so Evans has to attack smartly or find an alliance.
Regardless, there should be many more attacks on the climbs, I expect them on the last 3. With no real flats, teams will make Sky burn matches on the first two climbs, isolate him on the the cat 2 Col to Mollard, consolidate the lead into the descent, and try to stay away up the final climb.


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

Morkov might try to get in a break for some more points on the early climbs. Don't think that Sagan and Goss will make it over the HC with a break for the sprint points. Also not sure if another big break will get away early? Could be interesting. 

I see a few of the 10-20 in GC trying to get away, but sadly figure that it'll be more of the same. Attack, Sky sets tempo, GC remains the same. 

Probably a flyer by someone wanting a win. It isn't Bastille Day yet, but the French have been going on good attacks!


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed with Tejay so far; I thought he would be to Evans what Froome has been to Wiggins. 

His ITT was very impressive but he wasn't brought to the Tour to fight for his own GC ambitions.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

Tomorrow we will see whether the other GC hopefuls can throw a wrench into the Wiggins/Sky machine. I don't see individual riders being able to produce the required harm. There will need to be some alliances on the road to put Wiggins/Sky under real pressure.


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

KenS said:


> Tomorrow we will see whether the other GC hopefuls can throw a wrench into the Wiggins/Sky machine. I don't see individual riders being able to produce the required harm. There will need to be some alliances on the road to put Wiggins/Sky under real pressure.


For some reason I don't see any alliances being made between the other hopefuls. They seem to all be out there for themselves and not wanting to/willing to work together to actually do anything. 

Could be interesting, but likely not. 

Either way, I love watching the Tour!


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Another big early break. Lots of past stage-winners who are out of GC contention. Shadow-boxing behind in the leader's group.

I think Evans will wait and follow one of the climber's attacks, Nibali maybe.

No change in the top 5 on GC.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Evans has to look at tomorrow as the make or break day. Sky doing Tempo on the 3 middle climbs until wiggins Fromme and maybe one other Sky teammate are left.......then a series of attacks by Evans, Naboli and the other GC hopefuls forcing Sky to chase them down or, let them go. Look for Evans to try a sustained attack over the last 7 K or so.

Should be great racing

Len


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Len J said:


> Evans has to look at tomorrow as the make or break day. Sky doing Tempo on the 3 middle climbs until wiggins Fromme and maybe one other Sky teammate are left.......then a series of attacks by Evans, Naboli and the other GC hopefuls forcing Sky to chase them down or, let them go. Look for Evans to try a sustained attack over the last 7 K or so.
> 
> Should be great racing
> 
> Len


I really think a sustained attack over the last 10 k is too late. The climb varies from pan flat to 6%, which is basically just a long false flat. I don't think that section is hard enough to break wiggins. And if he has a domestique, he will get all kinds of drafting through there.


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

At this point, why not risk? Evans has to come out of this stage with a significant chunk of time gained. The longer he waits, the worse his chances get. I get the feeling that Evans will keep too close an eye on Wiggins and not risk enough. My guess is a last minute effor that will net 10 or 20 seconds. But what he really needs is a solo attack like Andy Shleck did last year. Nothing else will be good enough in my opinion.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

foto said:


> I really think a sustained attack over the last 10 k is too late. The climb varies from pan flat to 6%, which is basically just a long false flat. I don't think that section is hard enough to break wiggins. And if he has a domestique, he will get all kinds of drafting through there.


There are a couple of sections at 7 and 8%.......it all depends on how fried Wiggins is.

If he attacks earlier, there are too many sky riders left to chase him down.

OTOH.......if there are multiple attacks and counter-attacks on the earlier HC climbs that eliminate the SKY numbers advantage, than Evans should and probably will attack earlier.

Len


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i feel evans and liquigas need to separate on the first HC. at least make Sky chase or run a high tempo. if evans and nabali make it to the top of the second HC, they should be able to separate on the downhill. they could then duke it out on that last climb, which suits evans. the reason i say that is he can follow nibali and bunch it the last 250k.

honestly, that last climb is for levi. but i wouldnt put him in the mix. at all.



Len J said:


> Evans has to look at tomorrow as the make or break day. Sky doing Tempo on the 3 middle climbs until wiggins Fromme and maybe one other Sky teammate are left.......then a series of attacks by Evans, Naboli and the other GC hopefuls forcing Sky to chase them down or, let them go. Look for Evans to try a sustained attack over the last 7 K or so.
> 
> Should be great racing
> 
> Len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

weltyed said:


> i feel evans and liquigas need to separate on the first HC. at least make Sky chase or run a high tempo. if evans and nabali make it to the top of the second HC, they should be able to separate on the downhill. they could then duke it out on that last climb, which suits evans. the reason i say that is he can follow nibali and bunch it the last 250k.
> 
> honestly, that last climb is for levi. but i wouldnt put him in the mix. at all.


I'd love to see it but until Sky's domestiques are shot off the back, it's hard to see that working unless Wiggin's and Fromme are fried.

So the first problem is how do you burn out Sky's domestiques?

Len


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Honestly, what I see happening is Froome attacking and dropping Evans to secure his 2nd place. It's sad, but I really think Froome is climbing better than Evans. So any attack Evans or Nibali make will just end up hurting them. Of course, Wiggins/Froome will crush everyone in the time trial anyway, so I don't know what the answer is.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Len J said:


> I'd love to see it but until Sky's domestiques are shot off the back, it's hard to see that working unless Wiggin's and Fromme are fried.
> 
> So the first problem is how do you burn out Sky's domestiques?
> 
> Len


By a couple of key people going off the front together, at the steeper sections of the earlier climbs.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

Even if you isolate Wiggo and Froome by the base of La Toussuire, I don't think it will phase them. They will have prepared for that eventuality. If someone tries to pop off the front, I think they will just keep on rollin' at the pace they know will get them to the summit as fast as they can. They will know what that power profile is, and they will know exactly how to ride to it. So what if Van den Broeck takes 30s back?


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

With 5 guys in the top 22 -- all who supposedly can climb -- the Shack should mix it up. Start sending on the first climb and burn Sky up.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

no way will sky let nibali or evans disappear of the front early. The only way wiggo doesn't keep yellow all the way to Paris is some calamity on transition stages early next week, which would be unfortunate. I'd love to see liquigas or bmc make a deal with the shack. I think its the only thing that would derail wiggins. but i think we're watching an Indurain-esque performance from Sky/Wiggins. 
This is why i love the Giro.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

allison said:


> For some reason I don't see any alliances being made between the other hopefuls. They seem to all be out there for themselves and not wanting to/willing to work together to actually do anything.


this is always the case. People talk about alliances but even if they appear to form, they are mostly accidental. Nibali wants to get on podium and Evans may want to protect his place on GC, in case Wiggins falters. Nibali will not kill himself to get Evans to win the tour, especially if it likely results in Nibali dropping a few places, and vice versa. 

They *are* out there for themselves. This is their primary motivation.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i think the way to burn them out is to keep pushing the pace. MAKE sky react instead of control. easier said than done, i know. how did teams almost crack postal? there is no patron in the peloton, like postal had. teams seemed afraid of postal, and armstrong. take control, make sky react and keep a high tempo. 

the problem is you need to go hard enough to make them do that. and that wears you out. what are wiggos weaknesses? attack there. repeatedly. 



Len J said:


> I'd love to see it but until Sky's domestiques are shot off the back, it's hard to see that working unless Wiggin's and Fromme are fried.
> 
> So the first problem is how do you burn out Sky's domestiques?
> 
> Len


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I'd like to see Dan Martin do something.

He won't, though.


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

weltyed said:


> the problem is you need to go hard enough to make them do that. and that wears you out. what are wiggos weaknesses? attack there. repeatedly.


We saw today that Wiggins can't descend as well as Nibali, but I think everyone including Nibali and Wiggins already knew that. Who does descend as well as Nibali? Cancellara, I would think. Anyone else? I'm sure there are, but I definitely am not as familiar with the pro field as a lot of the forum posters here. Evans is better than Wiggins at descending, but I does he match Nibali?

The only other unresolved question about weaknesses seems to be if Wiggins can climb that well in proper mountains, particularly without having the bad days that even most pros have in a grand tour.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

55x11 said:


> this is always the case. People talk about alliances but even if they appear to form, they are mostly accidental. Nibali wants to get on podium and Evans may want to protect his place on GC, in case Wiggins falters. Nibali will not kill himself to get Evans to win the tour, especially if it likely results in Nibali dropping a few places, and vice versa.
> 
> They *are* out there for themselves. This is their primary motivation.


I am pretty sure Nibali was hoping Evans or JVdB came with him today and worked together to stay away..


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## Chef Tony (Mar 2, 2004)

I'd like to see Sky go on the attack and really put the screws to the contenders on weaker climbing teams. Send Froome on a flyer and force the pace to Nibali & Evans. Wiggins and sky can sit in during the chase. I see Wiggins & Froome trading the jersey through the Alps.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Stg 11? I'm just now watching stg 10!

Wrap me in bacon and call me lunch if the Colombiere climb isn't now on my bucket list. That climb rolls my socks up and down.

Wanted to see Jens (go old people! 41 omg!) pull it off over Voeckler. Damn.


Stg 11 tomorrow...I
don't have to be at work until 10AM, so I'll be up early with coffee brewing! 

Glad I get to see it and am hoping Evans or Nibali gets one over on Wiggins.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

Stage 11 was this year's L'etape du Tour.

4400 finished from a field of 5600.

Only 9 riders finished in under 6 hours.

A.S.O official platform dedicated to mass events


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

I want someone to do SOMETHING! At least, Nibali tried. Maybe he can go early with Evans and VdB, along with a couple others and cause a split that SKY cant control? As opposed to sitting around with their thumbs up their asses, until the last 500m.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

ewitz said:


> Stage 11 was this year's L'etape du Tour.
> 
> 4400 finished from a field of 5600.
> 
> ...




Hmmmm. Wondering how our very own forumite, PhilippeC did. 


Iirc, he's riding both L'etapes. Fuffing nut.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I'd like to see Pierre Rolland take the stage.


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## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

I don't see anything happening on the first climb. Let Sky establish a comfortable pace early in the first climb, and then figure out a way to push it just slightly without taking over or outright attacking. Radio Shack could instigate, but Nibali and Evans must play along. Maybe a very late blitz 1 or 2 km from the summit just to shake it up before the descent.

I think the descent will be key in disrupting the Sky train. The second HC climb is where it has to go down. They cannot allow Sky to establish a rhythm on this climb. They are too strong, and will dictate the pace long enough to render late attacks meaningless. A naturally progressing race plays right into Sky's hands.

Wiggins needs to be isolated early into the second climb. I don't see any other way for the others to crack him and get some time back. Force Porte and Rogers to burn some matches holding on at the top of the first climb and during the descent. Then make sure they're in a position to have to drag back earlier escapees on the lower slopes of the second HC climb. The focus must be on getting rid of these two guys as soon as possible, whatever the pace required. 

Froome doesn't matter. Crack Wiggins and Froome will have to sit up for his team leader. And if he doesn't, the whole race dynamic changes.

My prediction for this stage is that Tejay will crack big time and lose white. Break does not succeed on this stage. What the hell, Frank Schleck gets a stage win!


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## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

Chef Tony said:


> I'd like to see Sky go on the attack and really put the screws to the contenders on weaker climbing teams. Send Froome on a flyer and force the pace to Nibali & Evans. Wiggins and sky can sit in during the chase. I see Wiggins & Froome trading the jersey through the Alps.


Yikes. This could really backfire on Sky.


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

Evans needs to team up with Liquigas (Nibali-Basso) to try to counter the Sky Train and break Wiggings/Froome.

Then they can live up to fight another day and decide amongst them. If Nibali and Evans don't team up, Froome and Wiggo will crack them or simply put more time into them on the next ITT.

Both are good descenders also, so they can try to drop Sky on the descents.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Cancellara out.

Would love to see Jens put on some pain again...Voeckler doesn't look like he is enjoying himself that much...


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## juno (Jul 18, 2008)

Some good comments. Yesterday I was thinking the way to break SKY would be for the other GC guys to get someone to take a flyer that would force SKY into a high tempo and just sit on their wheels. Save their own super domestiques for an attack if SKY shows any weakness at all.
Say Nibali and Evans just let SKY burn up at a high tempo and throw some attacks at Wiggo in the steep stuff.
I don't know who or what other team would want to try and break SKY though. I have no clue what RSNT is up to. Buring matches to defend their 5th place or whatever? If anything it seemed to help SKY.
Today I expect a relative unkown or a polka-dot hunter to take the stage.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

Vinokourov in a break? No way.


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## tetter (Jun 28, 2008)

hope this attacks sticks for a while, make it an interesting race.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

If he can get over the top with a lead, his descending skills should help.

Len


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

oh, things are getting good.....i hope this evans attacks sticks....if he can bridge to that first group.....


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## Purt (Dec 23, 2010)

This is getting to be a joke. 

Rogers out climbing Evans without raising a sweat :idea:


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Purt said:


> This is getting to be a joke.
> 
> Rogers out climbing Evans without raising a sweat :idea:


If Rogers can manage to hold a line...


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

go Ten Dam. Rabobank could use a good day.


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## tobes88 (Jan 4, 2012)

Purt said:


> This is getting to be a joke.
> 
> Rogers out climbing Evans without raising a sweat :idea:


Yeah. You'd have to have closed nostrils not to smell a rat......


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

oops!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

tobes88 said:


> Yeah. You'd have to have closed nostrils not to smell a rat......


get.a.life.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Purt said:


> This is getting to be a joke.
> 
> Rogers out climbing Evans without raising a sweat :idea:


Rogers didn't exactly outclimb Evans! Tejay on the other hand looked ready to monster everyone


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Rolland looking great past two days.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

foto said:


> get.a.life.


+1 take that to forum it belongs in


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

...Rolland needs some remedial descending work.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

Though GC is, and will probably continue to be, boring repetition, we are being treated to some fine breakaway riding. I like seeing these big breaks go out and shed riders until there are just a handful left for a wobbly slowmo sprint to the line.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Yes! Go Nibali!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Wiggins in the wind!


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

Does Evans have anything left for an attack?


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

Wile_E_Coyote said:


> Does Evans have anything left for an attack?


Nevermind...


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*i dont think so.*



Wile_E_Coyote said:


> Does Evans have anything left for an attack?


i dont think so.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*man, thats steep what grade the 4th, 3rd to last kms?*

man, thats steep what grade the 4th, 3rd to last kms?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Wiggins dropped!!!!!!

maybe not cracked...


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

foto said:


> Wiggins cracked!!!!!!


Evans and Nibali have to find something extra. Now is the time.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Froome wanted to go! 
Cannot see him staying at Sky for much longer.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*wiggin may have no kik but looks good*

wiggin may have no kik but looks good


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## tetter (Jun 28, 2008)

Evans is toast. Froome is pulling Wiggins up these grades


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

tetter said:


> Evans is toast. Froome is pulling Wiggins up these grades


Froom outsprinted. Nice French 1-2.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Well that was interesting.

Clearly froome is the man, and Nibali is my favorite. Wiggins has to be the least likable leader possible.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Wiggo and Nibali, little bit of respect on the line. I think I preferred the b*tching in newspapers.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Fromme is the strongest rider in the race.

Evans is done

Len


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

in the immortal words of florida evans, "damn, damn, DAMN."


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

Very nice. 

Even with Froome holding back for Wiggins add a Sky 1-2 to the French 1-2.


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## knightev (Sep 22, 2011)

les français avec les jambes, les poumons, les coeurs!

it was funny listening to the french announcers. wonderful stage.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Len J said:


> Fromme is the strongest rider in the race.
> 
> Evans is done
> 
> Len


As commentators are noting...the team helpers are looking stronger than the favorites.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Well, there goes the neighborhood. What's with all these French people invading the Tour de France?


Sogno got her wish. Nice call.


I hope TJ hasn't lost white.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Something's rotten in Denmark. 

Without a doubt.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> Something's rotten in Denmark.
> 
> Without a doubt.


Kind of reminds me of Rasmussen a few years ago.....too good to be true.

Len


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Very satisfying stage. Cadel attacked exactly where I thought he would, but he didn't have enough. Team Sky left no doubt about the issue today. Froome is clearly the strongest man in the race, lucky for Wiggins they're teammates this time around.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Len J said:


> Kind of reminds me of Rasmussen a few years ago.....too good to be true.
> 
> Len


Rolland looks quite fresh at the interview...I'd really like not to suspect. But...


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Another great day of racing. Missed the Cadel attack on the first climb to go out for a ride, but watched the last bit.

Rolland looked great--the essence of HTFU to win and finish while bleeding. Love that Thibault pipped Froome at the line. I'm feeling sorry for Cuddles, though. Been there--nothing worse than watching the leaders ride away and have nothing left in the tank.

Wiggins should be deeply grateful for Ritchie Porte, Froome and his other teammates, because without them dragging him up the mountain, Nibali would have taken some time out of him.


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## flyrunride (May 2, 2012)

whew... evans cracked, froome a beast... looks like it's Nibali's podium spot to chase and wiggo will be holding on to yellow till Paris. Evans.... compared to Sky he's not in form... too bad..


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

Tejay outriding Evans, Froome outriding Wiggins, and the shark keeping it interesting...what a stage!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Jeezum, some of you people are really depressing.

You can't just watch sport without suspicion? Who really gives an eff? Just enjoy the spectacle and STFU.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

foto said:


> Jeezum, some of you people are really depressing.
> 
> You can't just watch sport without suspicion? Who really gives an eff? Just enjoy the spectacle and STFU.


 
Reality bites sometimes. 

I'm enjoying the entertainment of it........imagine how much better it could be if Sky was performing more humanly.

Len


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Len J said:


> Reality bites sometimes.
> 
> I'm enjoying the entertainment of it........imagine how much better it could be if Sky was performing more humanly.
> 
> Len


Did you see the sticky at the top of the forum? This isn't appreciated here.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

foto said:


> Did you see the sticky at the top of the forum? This isn't appreciated here.


These are not superhuman (i.e., suspect) performance levels from what I've read. Wiggins is in the position he is because he is a great time trialer at the top of his game (nothing new about that), and he has a very strong team around him. I don't think the innuendo is at all warranted, whether welcome in this particular forum or not.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Pierre Rolland: that guy's got some talent, eh? IMO, this tops his win on the Alpe, awesome performance on the last climb.

Nibali refuses to go away. The guy is tenacious as hell.

Froome is an effing monster in this Tour. The Vuelta proved he can climb so I'm not surprised, but the guy is finally showing his potential.

Just think if both Froome and Tejay had been unleashed today...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Fireform said:


> These are not superhuman (i.e., suspect) performance levels from what I've read. Wiggins is in the position he is because he is a great time trialer at the top of his game (nothing new about that), and he has a very strong team around him. I don't think the innuendo is at all warranted, whether welcome in this particular forum or not.


Uh huh.

It's not suspect when two members of a team are head and shoulders above the ENTIRE peloton, including pure climbers and dedicated TT specialists.

It's not suspect when Sky has 5 riders powering the train up an HC climb with a handful of GC contenders struggling to hang on. 

It's not suspect when you have Mick Rogers closing down attacks from guys like Nibali without hardly breaking a sweat.

It's not suspicious when Sky has had a number of "secluded" training camps and hired a doctor with a "colorful" past, direct from the Rabobank team doping era.

Nope, no suspicion at all.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I said the performance levels aren't suspect. That means on a watts/kg basis they appear in line with undoped performances. 

Aside from that, there is obviously no limit to the speculation one may engage in, so knock yourself out.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Sky was dominant, but not particularly dominating. There were multiple attacks out of the lead group on the last climb that put froome and wiggins on the edge, to the point where froome even starting getting gapped.

After the first ramp, the slope went from 0% to 6%, not exactly a killer, and easily the perfect mountain for paced tempo riding. Nibali attacked multiple times, Pinot attacked multiple times, Sky didn't exactly smother the competition.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

I hope the mods stop this. Why is any thread where people want to discuss cycling full of the conspiracy theorists full of the need to tell everyone why they know what's REALLY going on.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Agreed. There's a whole forum for that sort of thing.


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## knightev (Sep 22, 2011)

did anyone see when froome got the call from his team car telling him he was toasting wiggins, so he better slow down? you see him put his hand to his ear, sit up a bit, then look behind him to see wiggins 30 meters back. that was so frustrating for me as a spectator, i can only imagine what froome was thinking and feeling . . .


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

roddjbrown said:


> I hope the mods stop this. Why is any thread where people want to discuss cycling full of the conspiracy theorists full of the need to tell everyone why they know what's REALLY going on.


It's the same 4 personality deficient people trolling in here after every stage.

There are already threads about this in the doping forum...it would be a pity for a race commentary thread to have to get moved because of them.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

knightev said:


> did anyone see when froome got the call from his team car telling him he was toasting wiggins, so he better slow down? you see him put his hand to his ear, sit up a bit, then look behind him to see wiggins 30 meters back. that was so frustrating for me as a spectator, i can only imagine what froome was thinking and feeling . . .


He was thinking "let's finish Evans off once and for all".

videozone


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

knightev said:


> did anyone see when froome got the call from his team car telling him he was toasting wiggins, so he better slow down? you see him put his hand to his ear, sit up a bit, then look behind him to see wiggins 30 meters back. that was so frustrating for me as a spectator, i can only imagine what froome was thinking and feeling . . .


It's not like Grand Tour win chances are guaranteed. He HAS to be thinking what if this is my one shot?


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

I am hoping that the GC race is not done yet. Both Wiggins and Froome looked looked like they were hitting difficulties on the last climb. Maybe Sky cannot sustain a US Postal high-pace approach for the rest of the Tour.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

roddjbrown said:


> It's not like Grand Tour win chances are guaranteed. He HAS to be thinking what if this is my one shot?


How about the discussion in the team car if Wiggins has a spectacular crack on a climb? Are they going to ask Froome to hold back given how strong he has looked in the mountains?


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Froome/Wiggins put in a lot of effort today, chasing. It is still possible that they can pay for it later.... We will see....


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

Just want to ask the Mods to delete the comments that belong elsewhere, and let this thread live here as it should. Yes I too have an opinion regarding Sky, but even being an FNG I know it doesn't belong here.

~ Danke


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

robdamanii left me negative rep because I complained about doping discussions in here.

I ask you all to administer rep-justice.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

foto said:


> robdamanii left me negative rep because I complained about doping discussions in here.


Maybe there should be an official Trollhunter to banish them to a forum they can play in with each other.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

foto said:


> robdamanii left me negative rep because I complained about doping discussions in here.
> 
> I ask you all to administer rep-justice.


You've got to be kidding. What a moreon.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Unbelievable. 

Just rewatching today and I have to say, much as I can't stand him or his brother, for someone clearly lacking form/motivation I was pretty surprised to see Schleck up there so late in the race


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## usernametaken (Jul 26, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Uh huh.
> 
> It's not suspect when two members of a team are head and shoulders above the ENTIRE peloton, including pure climbers and dedicated TT specialists.
> 
> ...


Exactly.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Funny how this place is policed better during Tour of Oman then the Tour de France.

Until this place gets cleaned up, I'm outta here.


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## brianvosburgh (May 17, 2012)

Rolland's descend looked fine, it was negotiating the crappy line of the dude in front of him that got him. But the dude has some big balls to take the stage after that fall. Color me impressed. The climbers are animals.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

roddjbrown said:


> Maybe there should be an official Trollhunter to banish them to a forum they can play in with each other.


Clearly you and the fanboys see things through rose colored glasses. Sorry I can't help you with that.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> Uh huh.
> 
> It's not suspect when two members of a team are head and shoulders above the ENTIRE peloton, including pure climbers and dedicated TT specialists.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, Something is fishy with Sky...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Looks like Evans is DONE. Too much time to make up, unless Wiggo and Froome have incidents.

Like others said, if Wiggins cracks, does Froome go for it?


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

foto said:


> robdamanii left me negative rep because I complained about doping discussions in here.
> 
> I ask you all to administer rep-justice.


seriously???

to try to call someone out for leaving neg rep in the forum and then turn and campaign for some kind of group retribution is a sad example of petty, whiny douchebaggery.

NOW I understand why you're on the Ignore List of so many RBR'ers....


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Clearly you and the fanboys see things through rose colored glasses. Sorry I can't help you with that.


It's fine to disagree with someone. Negative repping somebody because you insisted on bringing up doping outside the doping forum and they objected to it, if that's what you did, is being a jerk.

Have you read the article from the "fanboys" over at Sport Science? Care to comment on it? It contains a lot more data and a lot less assertion than anything you've posted.

The Tour hits the mountains.

Knee-jerk cynicism is not superior to fanboydom, unless perhaps you are a burned fanboy yourself. Dominance of a team is not defacto evidence of doping. Everyone in cycling (except, possibly, Cav) has understood that Sky was purpose-built to do exactly what they're doing now. Most of the guys who are performing so well have done comparably well before--in fact, Froome's situation today was almost identical to where he was in the Vuelta last year. Michael Rogers did put on a huge performance, but it was hardly "without breaking a sweat"--he dropped straight out of the peloton after that pull.

My point is that if there's no physiological evidence that these are enhanced performances, it's at least possible they aren't enhanced performances. If evidence to the contrary surfaces, and I mean actual evidence, my view of that will change.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Looks like Evans is DONE. Too much time to make up, unless Wiggo and Froome have incidents.
> 
> Like others said, if Wiggins cracks, does Froome go for it?


That seems pretty clearly to have been Sky's plan all along, but it's looking less and less likely that plan B will be needed.


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## flyrunride (May 2, 2012)

DIRT BOY said:


> Looks like Evans is DONE. Too much time to make up, unless Wiggo and Froome have incidents.
> 
> Like others said, if Wiggins cracks, does Froome go for it?


Team plan probably says Froome will wait for Wiggo, their aim is Yellow for wiggo and even if he loses time in the mountains he can certainly gain them back in the TT. Maybe if he goes to another team being the leader we can see what he can really do.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Fireform said:


> It's fine to disagree with someone. Negative repping somebody because you insisted on bringing up doping outside the doping forum and they objected to it, if that's what you did, is being a jerk.
> 
> Have you read the article from the "fanboys" over at Sport Science? Care to comment on it? It contains a lot more data and a lot less assertion than anything you've posted.
> 
> ...


I ask you again:

How many "rides of a lifetime" can one person (or a whole team, for that matter) have?

I call it like I see it: there's something extremely suspicious about Sky's complete domination, coupled with the magnificent doctor's checkered past and their secluded training camps. And let's be honest, it's not like the rest of the peloton decided not to bother to train for some piddly little race in France, after all.

Oh, and from your own article:



> Now, an important disclaimer. None of this disproves doping, and none of this proves doping either. When a rider produces performances that have "alien" physiology implications, it's a strong flag for doping (I'm gratified to read that cycling's governing bodies are actually looking at this approach now). But when the physiology is "normal" or at least, not suspicious, then it doesn't necessarily vindicate the rider. *Why? Because doping helps with far more than on-the-day performances - it also aids recovery and thus enables consistency.*


This is precisely what is bizarre. The same dominating train, day after day in the mountains.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Which person do you see as having one ride of a lifetime after another?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Fireform said:


> Which person do you see as having one ride of a lifetime after another?


Froome. 
Rogers (consistently pacing up significant climbs day in and day out, and he's never been capable of that before.) 
Wiggins (holding top level form for 5 months. Don't give me the swim team crap, with the amount of training and racing he's done he should be pretty well tired by now.)


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## MoonHowl (Oct 5, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> Froome.
> Rogers (consistently pacing up significant climbs day in and day out, and he's never been capable of that before.)
> Wiggins (holding top level form for 5 months. Don't give me the swim team crap, with the amount of training and racing he's done he should be pretty well tired by now.)


I agree; that is plenty enough to make you go hmmm; long intense pulls day after day from more riders than on your list; makes you wonder...


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## Rick Draper (Jan 17, 2012)

robdamanii said:


> Froome.
> Rogers (consistently pacing up significant climbs day in and day out, and he's never been capable of that before.)
> Wiggins (holding top level form for 5 months. Don't give me the swim team crap, with the amount of training and racing he's done he should be pretty well tired by now.)


As you clearly believe the tour this year is tainted why not do everyone a favour and don't watch it and don't bother posting in tour threads?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

JustTooBig said:


> seriously???
> 
> to try to call someone out for leaving neg rep in the forum and then turn and campaign for some kind of group retribution is a sad example of petty, whiny douchebaggery.
> 
> NOW I understand why you're on the Ignore List of so many RBR'ers....


actually, douchbaggery is amassing a bunch of rep power in the lounge, and then going around the rest of RBR neg repping people.

It's like the very definition of being a total a-hole.

Please add me to you ignore list too, while your at it.

This thread and most of the pro cycling forum is turning into a disaster.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Froome isnt doing anything he hasn't done before. Wiggins hasn't done any attacking at all and has needed help from his crew twice now. His TT performance was no great surprise given his palmares. The other guys I don't know much about, but they were gassed at the finish today and are well behind TeeJay in the GC I believe. And all of them were crushed by a Frenchman who crashed on the way. 

Sky is a strong team, for sure. But Cadel is not on the form he had last year, Frank is Frank, and the other contenders are free lancing with no support. Nobody was touting these theories back when Cav was getting pummeled in every sprint stage because he had no support. 

I'm as opposed to doping as anyone, but I do like to see a little proof before I reach for the pitchfork and torches.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

*Horner mechanical*

Did anyone hear exactly what happened to Horner? He seemed to have a mechanical issue (pulled off to the side), then the next I saw he was back in the main peloton with other RSNT riders. Anyone know any details?


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## tobes88 (Jan 4, 2012)

In defense of the doubters....

I've been watching the tour since the Lemond days - I love it intimately as most do on these threads. My enjoyment has not been ruined by the endless scandals...I take it all with a grain of salt.

I'm not here to troll or ruin the conversation - it just so happens that last night, my subjective experience of the stage was deeply informed by a sense that Rogers was riding at an _unbelievable_ level.

I've watched him throughout his career - he's never remotely been able to do what he is now consistently doing.

No one _knows_, but jeez, I can't think of anything more reasonable than to _wonder_. We are absolutely justified in _wondering_.

And if some of us are wondering, it is interesting to see what other tour followers, who have good knowledge, may think. Are they wondering too?? Maybe, maybe not, I personally would like to find out what the fans are making of this. The reason it is relevant is because it really shaped the stage - other than Froome and Nibali at the end, Rogers was the key yesterday. He potentially decided the race.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

tobes88 said:


> In defense of the doubters....
> 
> I've been watching the tour since the Lemond days - I love it intimately as most do on these threads. My enjoyment has not been ruined by the endless scandals...I take it all with a grain of salt.
> 
> ...


This exactly. It's remarkable how Sky has turned Froome into a head and shoulders above the rest grand tour contender (in just a short year mind you) and turned Rogers into a magnificent super-domestique. Prior to his tenure at Sky, not only could he not climb worth a carp, he couldn't hardly stay healthy and on his bike.

The fact that people are so willfully, blissfully ignorant is silly. But hey, fanboys will be fanboys. Gotta give them a modicum of credit for being able to blindly love their team no matter what.


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## tobes88 (Jan 4, 2012)

Fireform said:


> Froome isnt doing anything he hasn't done before. Wiggins hasn't done any attacking at all and has needed help from his crew twice now. His TT performance was no great surprise given his palmares. The other guys I don't know much about, but they were gassed at the finish today and are well behind TeeJay in the GC I believe. And all of them were crushed by a Frenchman who crashed on the way.
> 
> Sky is a strong team, for sure. But Cadel is not on the form he had last year, Frank is Frank, and the other contenders are free lancing with no support. Nobody was touting these theories back when Cav was getting pummeled in every sprint stage because he had no support.
> 
> I'm as opposed to doping as anyone, but I do like to see a little proof before I reach for the pitchfork and torches.


Yeah, that's very well said.


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

Hope the French continue to have a good Tour and that this signifies a legitimate resurgences to the top.

Maybe the Cubs will win the Series some day too.


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

foto said:


> Funny how this place is policed better during Tour of Oman then the Tour de France.
> 
> Until this place gets cleaned up, I'm outta here.


Dang...please don't go. You're the ONLY person in this ENTIRE forum with a valid opinion! And you have such great social skills, too!

Don't go, Foto, I beg you.


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## 67caddy (Nov 4, 2009)

Today's stage by far had the best racing start to finish probably of any stage of the Tour I've ever watched. And I've been following the Tour since 84. We had the #2 and #3 GC riders make major attacks. Sky put on an incredible display today, but their leader showed that he is not indestructilble. Not to mention Froome's sacrifice, many riders in his position would have pushed on (from his response to his radio, I expect he did get an earful though) Nibali may have actually taken a little bit of hope out of todays stage, but I expect he also came to respect Wiggins as well. Today was what racing is all about. All of the main GC contenders laid their cards on the table today. They didn't just ride in the shadows like vultures.

I think a big part of it was that the other GC hopefuls know their backs are against the wall, Wiggins will gain 3 minutes in the final TT. They have to take a shot early in the stage to try to gain large amounts of time. Waiting for the days final climb and attacking for a 1 minute gain won't be enough.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I'm not a Sky fan, nor a Sky hater. I don't really care who wins this thing, just as long as the racing is top notch. Then I'll cheer for whoever is at the top of the podium next weekend.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Well, there goes the neighborhood. What's with all these French people invading the Tour de France?
> 
> 
> Sogno got her wish. Nice call.
> ...


Rolland!!!!


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

robdamanii said:


> This exactly. It's remarkable how Sky has turned Froome into a head and shoulders above the rest grand tour contender (in just a short year mind you) and turned Rogers into a magnificent super-domestique. Prior to his tenure at Sky, not only could he not climb worth a carp, he couldn't hardly stay healthy and on his bike.
> 
> The fact that people are so willfully, blissfully ignorant is silly. But hey, fanboys will be fanboys. Gotta give them a modicum of credit for being able to blindly love their team no matter what.


fanboy how? I too have a view on sky, the same view as the doubters. I just choose to share that in the doping forum, where it should be


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

Mick Rogers was virtual yellow jersey in the Tour (in the mountains) a few years back before he crashed out.

He won the Tour of California a few years ago. Was leading the Tour of Romandie until the final stage. He's been TT world champ 3 times, I think he knows how to ride tempo.

Besides, he didn't 'out-climb Cadel' in yesterday's stage as some people are suggesting. Cadel was riding at a pace he knew he had to sustain until the end of the stage. Rogers set a pace he could not sustain in order to pull back the attack. He finished nearly 20 minutes back on the stage in the end.


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

*MattSoutherden* How dare you use facts in this thread


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

roddjbrown said:


> fanboy how? I too have a view on sky, the same view as the doubters. I just choose to share that in the doping forum, where it should be


hey, here's an idea -- let's let the mods do their jobs!

Every year, the same thing happens ..... at any mention, allusion, or casual reference to whether someone's performance may or may not be aided somehow, the 'doping police' start screaming about how "you can't say that here!" .... "you can't make that reference here" ..... "...take that talk where it should be!"

It's the mods' job to decide what should and should not be on any given forum. If you don't like how it's currently being policed, PM one of the mods and apply for the job! The shrill overreaction to even a casual reference to any kind of doping or performance aid is just as off-putting as the potentially off topic talk itself. 

It's rather astounding how so many seem to draw a hard line at any mention of "that which should not be mentioned" only in this forum. Should that same logic be applied to all the forums on RBR? By that logic, should we move any thread that mentions a pro cyclist or race in the Lounge to this forum? If someone mentions a mechanical problem in General, should they be admonished and have the thread moved to Components and Wrenching? After all, that's "where it belongs", no? 

Clearly the powers that be feel that there's some room for subjectivity as to where the line actually is regarding if/when/to what degree doping can be mentioned here. And it's pretty obvious that not everyone is going to agree as to where that line is, and how it should be enforced. But unless you're a mod ..... your specific opinion on that topic doesn't mean schitt, regardless of what side of the line you're on. 

Let the mods do the job they're (not) paid to do, for chrissake.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

roddjbrown said:


> Unbelievable.
> 
> Just rewatching today and I have to say, much as I can't stand him or his brother, for someone clearly lacking form/motivation I was pretty surprised to see Schleck up there so late in the race


Apparently he is going to a new German team. So he may be trying to impress his new employers and get a higher salary.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

foto said:


> robdamanii left me negative rep because I complained about doping discussions in here.
> 
> I ask you all to administer rep-justice.


Look at his history. Sad. On ignore.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

JustTooBig said:


> hey, here's an idea -- let's let the mods do their jobs!
> 
> Every year, the same thing happens ..... at any mention, allusion, or casual reference to whether someone's performance may or may not be aided somehow, the 'doping police' start screaming about how "you can't say that here!" .... "you can't make that reference here" ..... "...take that talk where it should be!"
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why I was singled out for that comment but I'll reply anyway.

You make completely valid points. The thing is, it's a contentious topic. Some love talking about it, some prefer to believe it's gone away, some are ambivalent and believe it's there but enjoy the spectacle. Either way it brings out a lot of emotional responses.

I personally believe, as per the guidelines, that topic should be limited to the doping forum. This is not a couple of occasional hints. Every stage thread on this years tour had several mentions of it. Weltyed even mentioned at the start of his stage 12 thread that the responses should steer clear of the topic. Yes, I agree it's irritating reading a debate of what you should and shouldn't say, and I've definitely learnt a lesson about whether it's worth mentioning but if, like me, you consider the race and the doping two separate entities it seems poisonous to have hints, insinuations and "you're a fool if you don't know what's really going on" comments cluttering the race threads


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

MattSoutherden said:


> Mick Rogers was virtual yellow jersey in the Tour (in the mountains) a few years back before he crashed out.
> 
> He won the Tour of California a few years ago. Was leading the Tour of Romandie until the final stage. He's been TT world champ 3 times, I think he knows how to ride tempo.
> 
> Besides, he didn't 'out-climb Cadel' in yesterday's stage as some people are suggesting. Cadel was riding at a pace he knew he had to sustain until the end of the stage. Rogers set a pace he could not sustain in order to pull back the attack. He finished nearly 20 minutes back on the stage in the end.


Impressive post. :thumbsup:

A lot of people seem to have forgotten how good Rogers was before his injuries and mono ruined his last few years. Sky took a chance on him when he was down and out, and now they are reaping the benefits. To paraphrase Wiggo, he's not some sh** rider who's come out of nowhere.

He is not riding for GC, so he can ride himself into the ground today and doesn't have to worry about how it will affect his overall. Same with Rolland and Voeckler, they can both but on spectacular rides because they know they are not going to podium. A stage win will get them on the front page.


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## MoonHowl (Oct 5, 2008)

JustTooBig said:


> hey, here's an idea -- let's let the mods do their jobs!
> 
> Every year, the same thing happens ..... at any mention, allusion, or casual reference to whether someone's performance may or may not be aided somehow, the 'doping police' start screaming about how "you can't say that here!" .... "you can't make that reference here" ..... "...take that talk where it should be!"
> 
> ...


Well said. To add one more thing; it is an internet message board; it is not like someone's medications at a hospital are getting to the wrong person; it does not matter where some topic gets posted; are we taking things a bit too seriously perhaps. What if the mods combined the doping and pro-cycling forum; would your head explode

On topic: Glad to see Rolland pull out the win after that crash; epic performance.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Actually, the mods already did their job. They set a precedent throughout the season of moving all threads about this topic to the doping forum with great consistency until this week. Some here ask that the one thread dedicated to race commentary not go there so that it won't get moved.

Plus, the mods further did their job by putting a sticky at the top of the forum with clearly outlined rules.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/pr...ing-posts-threads-go-doping-forum-203035.html



> Reminder: Doping Posts/Threads go in the Doping Forum
> Put your doping thoughts in the proper forum. Hijacking someones thread to share your "they all dope" diatribe is a bad idea. Repeat violators will be dealt with accordingly.


If you value the time of these (un)paid people, you would respect the rules, and not talk about that one topic here.

Does the lounge have a sticky, and a similar precedent? No. Does Politics Only? Yes. Some rooms here have rules.

The fact that people come here and bully those who want to keep the talk on topic is what's sad.




JustTooBig said:


> hey, here's an idea -- let's let the mods do their jobs!
> 
> Every year, the same thing happens ..... at any mention, allusion, or casual reference to whether someone's performance may or may not be aided somehow, the 'doping police' start screaming about how "you can't say that here!" .... "you can't make that reference here" ..... "...take that talk where it should be!"
> 
> ...


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