# 2015 Super Record front derailleur problems



## Rokh Hard

hey there!

so i got this awesome mech groupo on the F8, but it keeps throwing the chain. ive had it in the shop 3 times for adj, most recently today...and it keeps throwing the chain....doenst shift onto big ring under load or fast pedal....in fact will throw the chain. 

thoughts?


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## MMsRepBike

Might be time to bring it to a new shop.

Some shops have old mechanics. The new generation of front derailleurs is not for those types that think they can just set it up like they have for years. This generation is very much like Shimano products now and it takes extra steps.

I can tell you one thing for sure; if you're dropping the chain to the outside, your mechanic is to blame. If the mechanic you go to can't do their job right, you need to go somewhere that will.


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## Rokh Hard

the chain drops to the inside.


one mechanic set it up, so i suggested that another mech start from the beginning on the install. ive viewed several camp tech vids on youtube and sent to them. im thinking that the 2015 and/or campy is a bit precious in its parameters of setup....if this is the case then i dont really want precious....i want something that will take a whoopin and keeps turning.....like my ultegra. 





MMsRepBike said:


> Might be time to bring it to a new shop.
> 
> Some shops have old mechanics. The new generation of front derailleurs is not for those types that think they can just set it up like they have for years. This generation is very much like Shimano products now and it takes extra steps.
> 
> I can tell you one thing for sure; if you're dropping the chain to the outside, your mechanic is to blame. If the mechanic you go to can't do their job right, you need to go somewhere that will.


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## Donn12

I have 2013 SR EPS so definitely different but I had the same issue. Mine had a small carbon peice come off the cage and without it my FD was a peice of garbage. Once they figured it out and reinstalled it it has been flawless. One of the things I have really liked about eps is that there are no adjustments. I am getting ready for a new rain/winter build and I am a little weary of mechanical shifters on it. Also my shop installed a campy chain catcher shortly after I bought the bike. The initial drops were me stupidly trying to shift front and rear at the same time


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## tka

Check that the inner limit stop is set so the on the small/big combination the cage clears the chain by no more than 0.5mm. More than 0.5 mm will tend to put the chain off the inside. The 2015 chainrings seem like the shift gates are a little more aggressive to improve the shifting but this also makes them more susceptible to tossing the chain.

If that doesn't solve it make sure the FD is set up per the tech manual. If the derailleur is set too high it seems to take more over-travel to make it shift, and this could lead to throwing the chain. I have found that on the 2 I've done so far having the UT-FD020 setup gauge makes it much easier to setup, and on my personal bike I needed the FD-CE011 washer to make it shift consistently since the cable did contact the derailleur fixing point.


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## Pirx

Rokh Hard said:


> im thinking that the 2015 and/or campy is a bit precious in its parameters of setup....if this is the case then i dont really want precious.


There's nothing "precious" about anything Campy.



Rokh Hard said:


> i want something that will take a whoopin and keeps turning


That's what Campy components do, if they're set up competently.


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## MMsRepBike

I obviously can't see the bike but it sounds like improper cable tensioning. Is there an inline barrel adjuster?


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## Rokh Hard

BINGO!!!!!

tka won the prize on this one.




tka said:


> If that doesn't solve it make sure the FD is set up per the tech manual. If the derailleur is set too high it seems to take more over-travel to make it shift, and this could lead to throwing the chain. I have found that on the 2 I've done so far having the UT-FD020 setup gauge makes it much easier to setup, and on my personal bike I needed the FD-CE011 washer to make it shift consistently since the cable did contact the derailleur fixing point.



yep. 

this afternoon i stopped by the shop to take her for a test run....flawless.....smooth and positive. could not make it throw the chain. works just like in all the vids i see. beauty. more will be revealed after i take her up the 2 tomorrow morning. 

after speaking with the mech, turns out he set it up same/same.....well.....2015 is different and not same/same. rewind and follow the directions.....there is allot to be said for shop loyality, where everyone has a chance to correct and learn something new......yeah....the chain "skid plate" on the F8 is a little chewed up and would not have been had they followed the instructions and not their instinct. we are human. we make mistakes. its human to allow others to better themselves and correct their mistakes. 

up the hill tomorrow. Grande Rosso rides.


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## MMsRepBike

It's nice that they admitted they did it wrong instead of paying attention. Hopefully they will not ever repeat their mistake again. Good to hear you're back up and running.

Now tell them to call gita bike and get you a new skid plate frame protector thing. They are sold separately and can be ordered. They owe it to you.


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## bikesinmud

I've had no problems with mine until the carbon cage snapped. Time to go back to chorus for the front even though it's a 2015 grouppo.


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## Rokh Hard

bikesinmud said:


> I've had no problems with mine until the carbon cage snapped. Time to go back to chorus for the front even though it's a 2015 grouppo.


wow. your outside carbon piece broke? 

ill ride the piss outta it until it does.....if it does. 

up the hill tomorrow......means coming down the hill tomorrow. god damn is that F8 amazing at speed.


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## Rokh Hard

front derailleur is acting up again. spent 5 hrs with a local campy tech and could not get it to shift properly. time for campy to get involved.....more will be revealed.


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## Rokh Hard

....howdy gents.....here is a followup to my experience here....

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/c...e-problem-uncovered-147639-3.html#post4840928

if the linky doesnt work for you here is the rub......

ive got a story....not the one i was looking forward to telling...but alas this is it...i was hoping, sort of praying that i would not be looking at or posting on a thread like this but here it is....il keep it as tight and concise as i can.....but im attempting to wrap up 1.5months and +20hrs of time, dialogue and effort in a short(ish) read/post.


1.5 months ago i had my favorite bike shop and mech build me a brand spankin new 2015 pinarello F8 decked out in full campy 2015 super record groupo and campy shamal wheels. 

ive been dreaming for the day that i could build and own a bike of this caliber.

in late feb i took possession of this beautiful machine.......my first test laps were in the safety of the rose bowl.....free of distractions. get familiar with the new systems, when less than 10mins into the ride the front derailleur drops the chain to the inside....shifting from the small ring to the big, drops the chain. no problem, its a simple adj issue....back to the bike shop i go.....simple....or so i thought.....

the next month (month of march) the bike has been in the shop more time than out on the road....a total of 4 times....same thing, drop the chain to the inside....take to shop, adj.....drop chain.....take to shop, adj, drop chain....wash, rinse, repeat. heck, they even rebuilt the whole thing at my request. love those guys at velo pasadena.

after all that back n forth, its still dropping the chain on the small to big chainring upshift. two weeks ago out of frustration and a willingness to find a solution, i call campagnolo usa in socal and i dan picks up the phone. i tell dan my problem. i ask dan, "can i bring it to you? im in LA". dan tells me hes out of town and to take it to the best man in LA who knows campy, "my guy in LA, he KNOWS campy ... eric at east west bikes."

the next day i take the bike to eric (who is 1hr and 15min drive one way in LA traffic) in fullerton/LA. we work on that front derailleur for 5hrs on sat. adj, ride, drop chain, adj, ride, drop chain....wash, rinse repeat. we even changed the bottom bracket out. eric is dumb founded. still no joy. eric asked to keep it another week so he can review with dan at campy usa. a week goes by, im calling eric who says no response from dan. near the end of that week, i call eric and say, "im coming to pick up the bike tomorrow and take it back to hrach to have them work on it", the next day dan from campagnolo usa calls and asks to keep it one more day to work on it, he wanted to put a gopro on it. still ever hopeful of a successful outcome as i really love the look and mystique of the product, i say no problem. that was two days ago.


yesterday i picked up the bike from eric at east west. i asked eric if he and dan got all the gopro vids and data they needed. eric said "we could not duplicate the problem" 

wait....eric and i spent 5hrs the previous sat working on it, he saw for himself as i rode past him repeatedly in the parking lot, the chain slipping and dropping on the upshift....

"yeah, i see it, i got it" he says

so yesterday i go down to eric at east west bike to pick up the F8. i went to check the play in the UT bottom bracket.....a full 2+mm!!! i called eric over and showed him the play, no SLOP in the bottom bracket ultra torque setup....thats 2-3mm of lateral slop!!!!! he hands me his bike, same only not as much. (he has similar setup on a different bike)

you know when you get those "AAAAH HHHA!!! moments? that was it....and by the look on erics face he was either saying "oh sheet" or "holy sheet!!". whatever he saw, whatever he said to himself it was not good.


right, so the secret slop is now out of the bottom bracket bag "out of the box"......lets just say that eric and i didnt see eye to eye on the slop in the campy ultra torque bottom bracket. 

i took the position that this the result of bad design and this or ANY slop is totally unacceptable, esp in a $3K world class group set....and it would not be to big of a suggestion so say that this slop is probably what is causing the front derailleur issues, for as the bottom bracket moves, so do the chain rings!!!!...and this all happens with NO cross chain. the chain is pretty much straight in line on the cassette in back, with the small chain ring in front.

eric didnt see any issue with this design, nor with the slop. he actually said "thats the way its designed" (which may be true) and went on to say "you are getting all worked up because i wont agree with you".....my jaw drops to the floor. this guy really believes that this amount of slop is acceptable, a sloppy bottom bracket is ok? its cool? thats amazing. actually what is getting me worked up is that this guy actually believes this, and is telling me this BS and has been working on my bike!! 

hey, if someone walked in off the street and said:

"my chain keeps coming off the front and its getting stuck", the mech sees 2mm of slop in the bottom bracket, is he going to service it or say? "ah, its ok, i could not get it to drop....just ride it....heres a rubber glove to keep your fingers clean". (that last bit is an inside joke, as i kept coming back with greasy fingers, so he gave me a blue rubber glove to take on test rides with me. when i would come back i would show him my clean fingers and say "all clean!!!" and then whip out the greasy glove from my jersey pocket. we would chuckle) 











ever feel like yer being swindled?


so, yesterday picking up the F8, we discover the bottom bracket slop. ensues a little more banter back and forth after which that "AAAHHH HAAA!!" moments hits again....i realize that im swimming in a pool of blind faith without a flotation device, and im sinking. the campy koolaid, folks here are smokin campy crack, whatever you wanna call it....its in full effect and im not getting the benefit of a contact high. right then i knew it was game over and what was coming up ahead of me. take the campy hardware off my bike, too much nonsense, too much risk.

after about 5mins of back and forth on the matter, i walk the F8 out, laughing to myself, shaking my head in utter disbelief at the conversation i just had with a campagnolo referred "proshop" mechanic, campys best trouble shooting man in LA. 
im simply dumbfounded. "we cannot duplicate to problem"....even though the week before this guy said "i see it, i got it" as i rode back and forth in the parking lot in front of him.
"we couldnt duplicate"....thats something id expect that from a GM mechanic but not what i would expect from a mechanic who represents the best mfg of high end road bike components in the world. 

smells like BS to me. little tie fighters protecting the death star. feel the force luke.....keep walking towards the door and dont be seduced by the sexy campy koolaid. keep walking. 

actually im disillusioned and saddened....i really wanted to be part of THAT club, THAT cult of campy....but the admission price is simply too high for me. i didnt spend $3K for a product that doenst work. i didnt spend $3K to troubleshoot, R&D the best components in the world. not my job man. i have not cultivated the blind loving faith of history with the company. not my job. not my problem. not my turn to hit the pipe. just say no. 

ever feel like yer being swindled?



yesterday on the way home i called hrach owner of the bike shop velo pasadena who built the F8 for me. i give him the lowdown on whats going on....hrach says "bring it in and we will take care of you buddy" (i love hrach)

ever feel like yer being listen to and being taken care of?

today i swung by velo. hrach and i chat about the system, i show him the slop in the bottom bracket. we put the F8 on the stand to have a closer look......we fiddle with the slop and as it turns out eric from east west bikes in fullerton broke the front ergo lever shifter!!!! it will not shift!!! unbelievable. just simply amazing. hrach is visibly frustrated and asks me what i would like to do...by this point my disappointment has moved to anger, and i say....

"dump it. take all this crap off my bike......i dont want any of it on the F8 (including wheels) ..... hrach this is not my job, nor is it your job to design around, and hack a fix for something that doesnt work correctly from the factory. i cant and dont trust any of their products or service. take it off and put on shimano di2"......"ok buddy, we will do that, we will take care of you" 

ever feel like yer being listen to and being taken care of?

so, what does this have to do with this thread/post? 

john and i have talked. i think that he is on to something with his shims system and not use this compressible "washer" fix as supplied from the factory to hack a design flaw. 

so why dont i get his shims and ride away into the sunset?

you know what.....if i spend $3K on a product i want it to work. and i want it to work as good, if not better than the maker of that product sells it to me as such. i dont want to have to purchase a off market hack fix and test to see if that does fix it (with all due respect, john is providing me with better service than campagnolo is and i didnt even buy anything from him) all in an effort to TRY and make a brand new product work, to work around a blatant design flaw....a fix from a guy that the mfg disregards? no. im not doing that. good on john for being in the solution mindset....me? im in the "i just wanna ride my bike and not fiddle with this BS" mindset. 

so gents, thats my story. im sad that i will not be part of the cult, i was excitedly looking forward to having a machine that really stood out on club rides and the like.....but that campy koolaid is just to much for me to swallow, and now i have a different story to tell.

today im looking forward to a smooth di2 shifting and shimano consistency setup.

this has been very therapeutic, cathartic, and good for me, i hope if was good for you too.....carryon, live long, prosper and may the force be with yall. 










ps....forgot to mention.....the chainstay behind the small chain ring is totally chewed up as a result of this little bit of nonsense. the paint is hacked out all the way to the carbon stay. thats a total bummer. who pays for that fix?


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## bikerjulio

Did you consider the explanation that was already offered in your other thread?


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## MMsRepBike

I said it before and I'll say it again, you have bad mechanics. And I don't care who says who is great. That's actually a red flag. This includes the shop you talk up and say is great, they are not great. They might be good people but they are bad mechanics, I said this when you first got your bike. There's only been one mechanic I've ever met in person who's lived up to his hype. 99% of the time he's an older hand that can work on older stuff but is set in his ways making him a bad mechanic in reality. Especially with the newer systems. I would like to have seen some pictures of this setup, I bet I could spot the problem(s) just by looking it over.

There's no way there will be any slop at all in that system if installed correctly. Obviously something was done wrong, and if it's the retaining clip as mentioned before... well that's just indicative of my point.

Sadly this is what happens when you rely on others in life. You don't own anything that you can't service. You're just holding on to it until it breaks once.

Edit:
Who pays for your mangled frame? The shop that first installed the Campy wrong, the shop that hopefully knows how to install Di2. With the instructions that Shimano provides though, really anyone should be able to handle it. They're the ones. You really like them though so I guess it's you that pays for it.


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## Pirx

By the way, what will happen to your "Batteries are for vibrators" signature line now? :aureola:

As an aside, I have never heard of the chain being dropped _on the inside_ on an _upshift to the larger ring_. That one boggles my mind to be honest.


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## goodboyr

Lol. Its called a wormhole.


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## Rokh Hard

Pirx said:


> By the way, what will happen to your "Batteries are for vibrators" signature line now? :aureola:



well....i suppose....if the di2 works out and im over-joyed with ecstasy ..... i suppose my sig might say

"Batteries are for Orgasms" 



> As an aside, I have never heard of the chain being dropped _on the inside_ on an _upshift to the larger ring_. That one boggles my mind to be honest.


the ultegra system on my pinarello rokh dropped a few times, to the inside to the upshift, but that was a simple fix with a front derailleur adj. (sans the drama) never did it again. the thing just works every time.

campagnolo's beauty is in it's aesthetic, its visual design....stuff sure is beautiful and pleasing to look at....by contrast shimanos beauty is in the ease, simplicity and consistency in which it works. it gets the job done and well.


Gears n Chicks -

campagnolo - kinda like that gorgeous girlfriend (or boyfriend) we all once had.....she sure is hot and everyone looks at her, all yer friends want a date with her....but she was a high maintenance bich, who expects that you spend money on her, pay her way all the time, and couldnt suck a down tube for sheet.

shimano - kinda like that girlfriend (or boyfriend) we all once had....she aint all that pretty, your friends would acknowledge her, she pays her own way and comes around after midnight....but christ could she could take a beating up the backside, smile and say "more please daddy" and rokh yer gears the rest of the ride.

im looking forward to that "Shimano Girl" .... who cums with her own batteries. digit.


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## 1Butcher

I could add to this, but I've had one warning.

But I do need batteries for my shifting but not anything else.


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## Pirx

Rokh Hard said:


> campagnolo - kinda like that gorgeous girlfriend (or boyfriend) we all once had.....she sure is hot and everyone looks at her, all yer friends want a date with her....but she was a high maintenance bich, who expects that you spend money on her, pay her way all the time, and couldnt suck a down tube for sheet.


Sorry, but that's BS, pure and simple. Like I said, I understand your frustration, but you're dead wrong extrapolating your personal experience into a generalization about Campagnolo gear. I am riding a 2009 Campagnolo Super Record, with no issues of any kind for six years now. Chain typically lasts 6k miles, SR cassette about twice that, and I'm still on my first cables. As I have said elsewhere, I'm not exactly sure when the last time was I adjusted anything other than the brakes to compensate for wear of the pads. I am certain I haven't touched my FD adjustment in the last two years, at least. The RD I only adjust when changing wheels: two clicks left from the Zipp to the Campy Shamal, or vice versa. As far as reliability, precision, and low-to-no maintenance is concerned, it simply cannot get any better than this, with any group I ever heard of, electric or mechanical.

I specifically remember my first ride outdoors this year, a couple of weeks ago, when, towards the end of the ride, I suddenly became aware of that well-nigh dream-like quality with which my group shifts. It almost feels like all I need to do is think of shifting gears, and the shift happens. Sure, it turns out that I really do tap my thumb paddles or move the shift levers, but all of this is completely automatic and precise, _every single time_, with nothing but perhaps a soft "clack" from the cassette on the upshifts (downshifts are silent) and the gentle clicking of the shifters themselves. I really do not have the faintest idea what those guys with their electric groups could possibly be talking about when they rave about the "superior quality" of their shifting. I simply cannot see how you would improve on what I already have.


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## 1Butcher

I have a 2009 SR groupset sitting in the drawer. It was removed because I went to SR EPS. I changed due to shifting issues. Some days were better than others. 

Campagnolo did improve some items to make it less finicky in the later versions, so there was some issues. I imagine that not everyone had a perfectly run cables [like you] so that is why the updates.

I'm glad things worked well for you, but that was not the case for everyone. One thing for certain, I did not have 2mm of BB play and I would not blame the Campagnolo for the idiots that represent them. Considering how small they are, they do a hell of a job.


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## tka

Pirx said:


> Sorry, but that's BS, pure and simple. Like I said, I understand your frustration, but you're dead wrong extrapolating your personal experience into a generalization about Campagnolo gear. I am riding a 2009 Campagnolo Super Record, with no issues of any kind for six years now.


This is my experience as well, Campagnolo gear just works. And even if it did break like the infamous 9-sp Ergo spring carrier(the right G spring carrier would crack and the shifter didn't work quite right, but ironically most people wouldn't notice any issue, just a slight bit of sloppiness that felt like worn cables/housings. It would show up immediately if you were using an ErgoBrain since the gear indicator wouldn't match the actual gear.) there were spare parts to fix it. Sadly those days are over. Now you need to buy a new component to fix a rare issue.

My experience with Shimano is it works great right until it doesn't, then you replace all of it since Shimano updated enough that anything new is incompatible with anything more than a couple years old. Happened on my XTR groups, happened on my Ultegra groups, happened on my DA groups. Happened enough that I no longer have any Shimano on any of my bikes.


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## goodboyr

Oh boy.....here we go....shimano vs campy..... Let's not take this thread ot.


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## Rokh Hard

goodboyr said:


> Oh boy.....here we go....shimano vs campy..... Let's not take this thread ot.


your correct. it aint. it isnt.

what this is, is an accounting and my experience with the 2015 super record front derailleur, and the authorized campagnolo proshop mechanic that i was directed to by the campagnolo north american rep. :thumbsup:


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## orange_julius

I guess I'm lucky that I decided to rely on myself and never on a shop to take care of my gear. The first time I bought a really nice frame and wanted to put Campagnolo on it, a friend who used to own a bike shop walked me through the steps of installing it. So far, I have never gone to a shop for any groupset issues. 

For fun, I've done about 12 full Campagnolo installs on bikes for myself and for friends, from Veloce to Record, and so far I have had 0 problems. I'm not nearly a mechanical genius. I just read the instructions, think through the steps, and then get it done. No issues or mistakes, other than a few cables I cut too short the first 2 times I did a full bike (oopsie). It's really not hard and i encourage everybody to learn how to install a groupset. The skill you learn may save your *** on the road someday.


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## goodboyr

+100000


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## Pirx

orange_julius said:


> I just read the instructions, think through the steps, and then get it done.


Yes, this is the key, and it is really all it takes to get your Campy setup working perfectly. So simple, yet so hard to do for some shops, apparently.


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## goodboyr

It is actually amazing that shops are so uninformed. This info is readily obtainable. It's a lot of nerve for an lbs to sell high end equipment, yet work on it like they are working in a Walmart.


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## Rokh Hard

what is interesting is that a campy proshop working in conjunction with campy usa and the chaps in italy (and all the little ones in between) could not (or would not) sort this out. by all the accounts i read here that most any non pro mechanic are able to install (previous) versions of this group set as it appears simple enough.

that leaves the following to be said about my experience with the 2015 campagnolo super record gear set -

1) that my 2015 campagnolo super record gear set does not work
2) that my 2015 campagnolo super record gear set will not work
3) they cannot fix my 2015 campagnolo super record gear set 
4) they will not fix my 2015 campagnolo super record gear set 
5) there is something inherently wrong with the design, and operation of the 2015 campagnolo super record gear set that they are not willing to divulge, address, share, discuss, fix or remedy.
6) they do not care about a campagnolo customer who purchased a 2015 campagnolo super record gear set or provide them with the minimum effort to achieve positive customer service experience and product support to - 
a) offer a workable solution
b) offer a warranty solution

in the alternative campagnolo has offered no solution what-so-ever, and returned the product to customer in broken and non working condition. this leaves any/all combinations of 1-6, as indicated above....otherwise there is a good chance i would would be ridin around on a new 2015 campy super record setup, instead of a new 2015 shimano dura ace di2 setup. digit. :thumbsup:


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## ccurry007

When the calipers were put on the Pinarello shell was it in spec? It wouldn't be the first time components were blamed for imperfect frame dimensions.
What other cranks were tried to rule that out? Heck, put the Shimano on there if that's where you are going and make sure the fit is good.
How about bottom brackets? Anything else tried?
What other front derailleurs were tried? That's a 5 minute swap, and again hones in on or rules out a defective derailleur.
In the absence of some of this basic troubleshooting, most of what you said is pretty hard to swallow. I wanna believe at least some of this stuff was done. I know if it was my bike I'd be pulling all sorts of things out of the cabinet (or off of other bikes) to narrow down what the real issue was.


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## goodboyr

Water under the bridge. He's gone di2..........


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## Rokh Hard

> When the calipers were put on the Pinarello shell was it in spec? It wouldn't be the first time components were blamed for imperfect frame dimensions.


donno. not my job, that would have been campagnolos job. (seeing as this was handed over to campagnolo). 

i paid for a product that ultimately does not work. campagnolo should repair it, or replace it. they chose not to repair it, or replace it, instead they handed it back to me in worse shape than i brought it to them and said "we cannot duplicate the problem", complete BS and totally unacceptable.

im confident that if the frame was out of spec, campagnolo would have said something to the matter.




> What other cranks were tried to rule that out?


campagnolo put another super record crank on there. same issue.





> Heck, put the Shimano on there if that's where you are going and make sure the fit is good.


most assuredly 



> How about bottom brackets? Anything else tried?
> What other front derailleurs were tried? That's a 5 minute swap, and again hones in on or rules out a defective derailleur.


i left the bike with them for a week. they could have/should have sorted it out in that time. they didnt, they couldnt and/or they wouldnt. instead they broke the shifter and handed it back to me and said "we could not duplicate". unacceptable. thats the bottom line.

as a customer it is not my responsibility to shop the system around on my own (which i did by calling campgnolo usa and they directed me to said proshop) to a off market mechanic in hopes of getting it sorted out. that is ludicrous, and can you say "warranty void" as the first thing out of their mouths?

it is the job of campagnolo to have their product ready and working when it hits the marketplace. additionally there should be proper procedures and systems in place to provide positive customer service for their products. they failed on all accounts. 

it is not the job of the consumer to spend their time and money on R&D/hacking a new campaganolo $3K system in hopes to get it to work. thats nuts. thats why i paid the big bucks for this high in product from campagnolo. best product, best service. campagnolo did not deliver on either accounts. 

it is the responsibility of campagnolo to sort out their product malfunctions and not burden the customer/consumer with these details. no excuses. 



> In the absence of some of this basic troubleshooting, most of what you said is pretty hard to swallow.


yep im with you on that......hence why threw my hands up and spit out the seeming endless spiral of R&D/troubleshooting sessions in which i was getting wrapped/SUCKED up into with campagnolo all in an effort to hack their 2015 super record groupo into a workable condition. not acceptable.

i want a product sorted and working before it hits my wallet. this is what i demand, and this is what i expect especially from a company such as campagnolo with a product they claim that is the best on the market and is most certainly the most expensive. 

campagnolo did not meet the demand nor did they satisfy the expectation. they failed.




> I wanna believe at least some of this stuff was done. I know if it was my bike I'd be pulling all sorts of things out of the cabinet (or off of other bikes) to narrow down what the real issue was.


personally i do not care what testing they did or did not do. not my problem. 

again, i expect the product to work and perform as sold to me without having to troubleshoot it for/with them. no excuses. in the meantime ill be riding shimano di2. 



> Water under the bridge. He's gone di2..........




correct. 

campagnolo had plenty of time to figure it out.....however they failed miserably.


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## orange_julius

From all of this, the only thing to infer is this is why lots of people don't bother with Campagnolo's US distribution. You get neither good service nor good price. 

Rokh, did you buy the frame and groupset from the same shop? Even if it was a frame that was out of spec, it is the responsibility of the bike shop that attempted the install to check it and point it out to you.


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## bikerjulio

orange_julius said:


> From all of this, the only thing to infer is this is why lots of people don't bother with Campagnolo's US distribution. You get neither good service nor good price.
> 
> Rokh, did you buy the frame and groupset from the same shop? Even if it was a frame that was out of spec, it is the responsibility of the bike shop that attempted the install to check it and point it out to you.


I agree, that it looks like OP ran into pretty crappy "help". I'd be making Campy HQ aware of this state of affairs. 2 mm of play should have been noticed and fixed immediately. My only comment really is that although criticism of Campy is warranted for having such crappy support in the US, it's not the product or design that's at fault, it's the monkeys who installed incorrectly and the follow-up monkeys who couldn't fix the problem.


----------



## Rokh Hard

> I agree, that it looks like OP ran into pretty crappy "help". I'd be making Campy HQ aware of this state of affairs.



they were the help and they are aware.





> campy is warranted for having such crappy support in the US, it's not the product or design that's at fault, it's the monkeys who installed incorrectly and the follow-up monkeys who couldn't fix the problem.



crappy = all of the above.


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## 1Butcher

I agree with Rokh Hard. 

If Campagnolo NA is the last source of the help, they should have resolved it sooner.

The problem is that Rokh Hard is not bad mouthing the original bike builder and seems to support that they when above and beyond not to build it correctly.

There are a lot steps that could have been better, but it all originates with a bike builder that should probably stick with Lego's. 

You do not send out a bike that can't make a 2 mile road test without it coming back. You should not have to send it to the 'factory' to find out there is 2mm of BB play and the 'factory' should not have taken that long to mention that.


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## Rokh Hard

1Butcher said:


> The problem is that Rokh Hard is not bad mouthing the original bike builder and seems to support that they when above and beyond not to build it correctly.



Campagnolo USA cannot or will not resolve the problem, therefore it is unreasonable to expect the dealer to do what the mfg cannot or will not do to support their product, therefore there i have nothing negative to say about the builder Velo Pasadena. in the alternative i have only kudos to Velo Pasadena for their efforts in trying to make Campagnolos product work and for supplying top shelf customer service.

the new and redesigned 2015 Super Record group set was taken back to the original builder 4 times, they could not correct the issue with rebuild and/or adj efforts, afterwhich the new and redesigned 2015 Super Record group set was directed to a Campagnolo USA ProShop, by the head of Campagnolo USA. the recommended ProShop technician in conjunction with Campagnolo USA could not and/or would not resolve the problem. additionally the compounded the problem by breaking the shift lever and not fixing it.

additionally this experience is a red flag for unaddressed (or addressed) design flaws in the new and redesigned 2015 Campagnolo Super Record group set. this is also an red flag for future product support.


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## 1Butcher

Velo Pasadena sold you a bike that is unrideable from day one. How is that customer service?

They should of told you before you took delivery it was not right. That is why you have a chip on your shoulder.

Somethings just do not work together (such as your case). The tech thought it was good enough to deliver it to you that way. If they had an ounce of care, you would have never had this frustration and would be posting how you love your Di2.

Maybe a name change, Lego Pasadena.

And yes, I agree, Campagnolo could have done a heck of a lot better too. It's not all their fault.


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## Pirx

Rokh Hard said:


> additionally this experience is a red flag for unaddressed (or addressed) design flaws in the new and redesigned 2015 Campagnolo Super Record group set. this is also an red flag for future product support.


Sorry, you are confused. You had a very bad _personal_ experience, and given that experience of yours, it is perfectly reasonable for you _personally_ to give up and switch to a different groupset. However, your personal experience says nothing, and I repeat, _positively absolutely nothing_, about the design, in general, of any Campagnolo groupsets, or the 2015 groupsets. 

I may remind you that there are many thousands of these groupsets out there working perfectly fine on all sorts of bikes, including Pinarellos. As an aside, feel free to do a web search, and let us know how many users you can find reporting anything even remotely like the problems you describe. So, no, there are no "fundamental design flaws" of this groupset, and the very idea of such is ludicrous on the face of it. Understand that designing a front derailleur shifting system is not rocket science, and that the company in question has done this for many decades; longer, in fact, than any of its current competitors.

Like I said before, I feel your pain, but for you to continue babbling about "fundamental design flaws" is like the guy who bought the lemon BMW now going on about how BMW does not know how to design engines, and who takes his experience as a "red flag for unaddressed (or addressed) design flaws in the new and redesigned 2015 BMW engines". All you can do this way is to is make a fool of yourself. Just like that banned poster, I might add, in whose thread you chose to post your experience, for reasons unknown...


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## orange_julius

Instead of being upset that the groupset didn't work, you should have been upset that the *complete bike* didn't work. That's what you deserve as a customer when you buy a complete bike. If a frame and a groupset are said to be compatible with each other, this is what I expect, not that I should have picked a different groupset. If I had to, why should that shop be allowed to sell me the groupset that I want, and the frame that I want?? 

What you should have done is to have me build your bike ;-). My step 1 is always making sure the frame is within spec: BB width, BB face alignment, RD hanger alignment, etc. That way if anything doesn't work I know it's either the groupset or my own damn mistake. Anyway, I invite anybody in Boston area to get in touch with me if they want to install a mechanical Campa groupset. 

In all the discussions I don't think frame spec was considered at all. 

If the Crankset really had so much lateral play (is that what you meant by slop?) it's very likely the BB shell needed facing, or even more simple the UT BB shell was not threaded straight. This is much easier to do than you think, especially if there is residual paint on the BB shell. Of course, this will then translate to the chainrings, mounted on the cranks, being f-ed up and hence no amount of FD tweaking will solve the fundamental problem. 

When you switch groupsets, the mechanic had to uninstall the UT BB cups and install a different one. This could have cleaned the thread that the newer BB cup was then installed correctly. 

When setting an FD or RD, always start with the dynamic range of movement, both vertical and horizontal. I always simply actuates the cables by hand instead of through the shifters, that way if something doesn't work I know it's not the shifters, but rather RD/FD alignment/height or limit stops. Then I move on to the shifters. 

Now I am really annoyed having typed so many "could have"s and "should have"s. Rokh, really sorry you had s*** mechanics. If something doesn't work, I expect a mechanic to explain to me exactly why, clearly, in mechanical terms. Instead of "this is faulty". Grrrrr ..... !


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## Rokh Hard

1Butcher said:


> Velo Pasadena sold you a bike that is unrideable from day one. How is that customer service?


in my experience, Velo Pasadena provided excellent customer service by adjusting the Campagnolo product several times, rebuilt the system along with further adjustment. Velo Pasadena did what they could before it was necessary to involve Campagnolo USA. 

the problem is above and beyond installation and adjustment and the scope of Velo Pasadena. this is confirmed by the fact the Campagnolo USA could not resolve the problem and get their own product to work, nor could they offer a solution. this is not acceptable.

to be clear. i am happy and satisfied with the professional service and attention i have received and continue to receive from Velo Pasadena.



> They should of told you before you took delivery it was not right.


in my experience, Campagnolo should sell a product to a customer that works as designed. 

in my experience, Campagnolo could not provide sufficient customer service to remedy the problem, and/or offer a working solution. 

in my experience, Campagnolo disregards the problem by saying they cannot duplicate the problem, (where there is a problem) and moreover adds to the problem by breaking the customers product and returning the broken product to the customer unresolved leaving the customer hanging out to dry. this is not acceptable.

No bike shop can be held responsible for a Campagnolo product that does not work as designed. 

in my experience, i am completely satisfied that Velo Pasadena had done as much as they could and was within their scope of work before it was time to escalate this to Campagnolo USA. 

ultimately the problem is with the Campagnolo product and not the bike shop that sold and installed it. if Campagnolo cannot fix their own product, it is unreasonable nor appropriate to lay responsibility anywhere else but Campagnolo. 





> That is why you have a chip on your shoulder.


incorrect



> Somethings just do not work together (such as your case). The tech thought it was good enough to deliver it to you that way. If they had an ounce of care, you would have never had this frustration and would be posting how you love your Di2.


correct. 

in my experience, Campaganolo USA thought it acceptable to return to customer a defective and non working product, sans remedy. Additionally Campagnolo USA returned the product in worse condition than they received it, with no offer of remedy and no followup. had they done so it is quite possible that i would be posting how much i love the 2015 Campaganolo Super Record setup however that is not the case. 




> And yes, I agree, Campagnolo could have done a heck of a lot better too. It's not all their fault.


in my experience, Campagnolo failed to deliver a working product and is 100% at fault. this is acceptable.


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## Rokh Hard

> What you should have done is to have me build your bike ;-).




the F8 is great! the Campagnolo bottom bracket and front derailleur....is the weak point.....well......WAS the weak point.  




> If something doesn't work, I expect a mechanic to explain to me exactly why, clearly, in mechanical terms. Instead of "this is faulty". Grrrrr ..... !


this is a reasonable expectation, however Campagnolo USA failed to meet this (reasonable) expectation. in the alternative, Campaganolo USA thought it reasonable to return to customer a defective and non working product, sans remedy. Additionally Campagnolo USA returned the product in worse condition than they received it, with no offer of remedy and no followup.


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## Pirx

Rokh Hard said:


> in my experience, Campagnolo should sell a product to a customer that works as designed.


Campagnolo does sell a product to their customers that works as designed. Hundreds of thousands of them, in fact, that do so. So now we have this one guy for which the product doesn't work, for reasons that remain unclear. You conclude that this must be because "Campagnolo sells a product that does not work". Do you see any problem with your, ahem, "reasoning" here?



Rokh Hard said:


> in my experience, Campagnolo disregards the problem by saying they cannot duplicate the problem, [etc., etc.]


_Campagnolo_ says nothing of the sort. The people you have dealt with say this.



Rokh Hard said:


> No bike shop can be held responsible for a Campagnolo product that does not work as designed.


Sure, so what? You have not established that Campagnolo has such a product.



Rokh Hard said:


> ultimately the problem is with the Campagnolo product


You have no basis for this assertion. Hundreds of thousands of satisfied customers provide evidence to the contrary.



Rokh Hard said:


> in my experience, Campaganolo USA thought it acceptable to return to customer a defective and non working product, sans remedy. Additionally Campagnolo USA returned the product in worse condition than they received it, with no offer of remedy and no followup.


You have never dealt with "Campagnolo USA". What you dealt with was a particular shop and its technician(s)/mechanic(s).



Rokh Hard said:


> in my experience, Campagnolo failed to deliver a working product and is 100% at fault.


You are improperly using the English language. You can say that "_in your opinion_, etc., etc." but you have no basis to talk about your "experience", since you have never established the reason for the problem you experienced.


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## MMsRepBike

Pirx said:


> Well, I have to hand it to Velo Pasadena, they must be doing something right, although clearly it's not building road bicycles, unfortunately.


This is exactly my take away as well. It's a real bummer though. There's permanent damage to the frame now, no sweet talking or camaraderie is going to fix that. There's so many red flags here about their work, and there has been since this OP has been talking about them, since before he got this bike. Shame. Oh well.


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## Rokh Hard

Donn12 said:


> I have 2013 SR EPS so definitely different but I had the same issue.


thats a total bummer. thats allot of money to spend to have something not work properly out of the box. again....coming back to having a product fully ready and working for the market is paramount.



> Mine had a small carbon peice come off the cage and without it my FD was a peice of garbage.


well....at least you had some sort of part malfunction that made your into a piece of garbage, mine was out of the box that way. 

in sharing my tale of woe with local mechanics they in turn are sharing that they see more issues with the front derailleur in the campy setup than in the shimano setup. 



> Once they figured it out and reinstalled it it has been flawless.


im happy for you that it was sorted out as i would have liked mine to have been, but alas due to design flaws and poor service, it was not meant to be.



> One of the things I have really liked about eps is that there are no adjustments.


interestingly enough the EPS was my first choice. i was pretty set on that one....but was advised against it due to some design and functional issues from other users....it was suggested that if i wanted to go electronic, go di2....however i really wanted a campy setup....you know....get some of that campy mystique on me....well....i sure did....got a nice Campy Facial!



> Also my shop installed a campy chain catcher shortly after I bought the bike. The initial drops were me stupidly trying to shift front and rear at the same time


my drops are made with simple easy shifts, no cross chain nothing complicated but the product still failed to work properly.

yeah, it was suggested to install the chain catcher....and the derailleur that has the little arm on it all in an effort to keep the chain on and/or allow it to shift properly....then i thought about it....these little hacks to keep the chain on and aid basic shifting are necessary because they dont have the design down, they are bandaids for a system that doesnt work properly, this is the conclusion that i came to. CampyAids. why bother. its not rocket science here, but campy is making it so and over complicating it with this bottom bracket design that results in slop. keep it simple and the product will work properly. 

again, im happy (and a bit envious) that your EPS works as thats really what i wanted to run on Grande Rosso. enjoy the piss outta it....i would if they were able to make it work on my bike. but alas it was not ment to be.


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## Rokh Hard

bikesinmud said:


> I've had no problems with mine until the carbon cage snapped. Time to go back to chorus for the front even though it's a 2015 grouppo.


yeah, this was suggested as well, although the cage did not snap, this news is alarming!

again, its all comes back to these are hacks for design flaws. i happy that the chorus swap worked for you, but i didnt pay $3K for a super record grouppo only to have a chorus bit installed in an effort to get the system operational. total nonsense. i see these as little bandaids and hacks in place in order to get a non working, buggy system to work. 

what would be awesome is if campy took some time to sort these details out and come back and say "we got it worked out now", instead of saying "thanks for your money, ciao!"

ride the piss outta that chorus/SR hybrid, you earned it!


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## goodboyr

Design flaw, no....incompetency by multiple maintenance people, yes, mucho!!!


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## 1Butcher

So what we have learned is that Lego Pasadena does not know Campagnolo [and debatable is they know bikes] and there are too many bike mechanics [including the some Pro-Shops] that need to know the basics.

Of course, there are two sides of the story and Campagnolo's recommended tech has not chimed in. I think it is suspicious that a highly recommended Campagnolo tech did not find 2mm of BB play. But hey, this is the internet and everything is true.


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## Pirx

1Butcher said:


> But hey, this is the internet and everything is true.


Yep, exactly.


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## Rokh Hard

tka said:


> Check that the inner limit stop is set so the on the small/big combination the cage clears the chain by no more than 0.5mm. More than 0.5 mm will tend to put the chain off the inside. The 2015 chainrings seem like the shift gates are a little more aggressive to improve the shifting but this also makes them more susceptible to tossing the chain.
> 
> If that doesn't solve it make sure the FD is set up per the tech manual. If the derailleur is set too high it seems to take more over-travel to make it shift, and this could lead to throwing the chain. I have found that on the 2 I've done so far having the UT-FD020 setup gauge makes it much easier to setup, and on my personal bike I needed the FD-CE011 washer to make it shift consistently since the cable did contact the derailleur fixing point.



yeah, campagnolo did all this. 

as it turns out its the flawed design built into the bottom bracket thats allowing for excessive slop. this slop and movement in the bottom bracket affects the alignment/relationship of the chain rings to the front derailleur therefore allowing the front derailleur to never be in full adjustment. campaganolo needs to change the design of the bottom bracket and their problems will be resolved!


----------



## tka

Rokh Hard said:


> my drops are made with simple easy shifts, no cross chain nothing complicated but the product still failed to work properly.
> 
> yeah, it was suggested to install the chain catcher....and the derailleur that has the little arm on it all in an effort to keep the chain on and/or allow it to shift properly....then i thought about it....these little hacks to keep the chain on and aid basic shifting are necessary because they dont have the design down, they are bandaids for a system that doesnt work properly, this is the conclusion that i came to. CampyAids. why bother. its not rocket science here, but campy is making it so and over complicating it with this bottom bracket design that results in slop. keep it simple and the product will work properly.


Get used to seeing CampyAids, ShimanoAids, SramAids or PinarellosSavers, they are going to be come more common, and if some of the frame manufactures have their way, mandatory.

I had the opportunity to attend a meeting earlier this year about trends in road bikes, and after disc brakes improving front shifting/preventing front misshifts was right up there as a top trend.

The general consensus of the panel (consisting of component manufacturers, frame builders, product managers, and a couple of mechanics) is that the manufacturers need to make the front shift as well as the back, in most part due to the poor shifting skills of today's bike riders. This means the shift aids (pins & gates) on the chainrings are getting much more aggressive. The down side of this is that more tossed chains were inevitable with these designs, so all saw that chain catchers would become more common as "standard equipment." They thought Campagnolo was ahead of the general trend by offering their own catcher, although they did express surprise that it wasn't included with the FD. (No Campagnolo rep was on the panel.)

The frame builders said they are seeing an increase in frame damage and warranty claims related to chain damage, enough that they are thinking of REQUIRING chain catchers. One went as far as saying they were planning on building in a chain catcher on one of their new designs, and not using it would be basis for denying warranty claims.

They all said (the mechanics in particular) that set-up on all the new systems is much more critical than in the past. Everyone said that every frame had to be faced, BB threads checked & chased, derailleur hanger checked, and general frame alignment check, and all the parts installed precisely in order to ensure the systems will work right.


----------



## tka

Rokh Hard said:


> yeah, campagnolo did all this.
> 
> as it turns out its the flawed design built into the bottom bracket thats allowing for excessive slop. this slop and movement in the bottom bracket affects the alignment/relationship of the chain rings to the front derailleur therefore allowing the front derailleur to never be in full adjustment. campaganolo needs to change the design of the bottom bracket and their problems will be resolved!


No, Campag's design is fine IF IT IS USED WITHIN ITS INTENDED DESIGN RANGE. 

You seem fully intend on trashing Campagnolo so there is no further point in discussing this.


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## Pirx

Rokh Hard said:


> yeah, campagnolo did all this.


You're fantasizing. "Campagnolo" did nothing. All you had was some mechanics that did who knows what.



Rokh Hard said:


> as it turns out its the flawed design built into the bottom bracket thats allowing for excessive slop.


You really like your BS by now, do you?



Rokh Hard said:


> this slop and movement in the bottom bracket affects the alignment/relationship of the chain rings to the front derailleur therefore allowing the front derailleur to never be in full adjustment.


More BS. You have no idea what you are talking about. How wondrous that everybody else's FD is "in full adjustment". Miraculous, really.



Rokh Hard said:


> Campaganolo needs to change the design of the bottom bracket and their problems will be resolved!


Yep, that's because a certain banned poster said so, right?

Meanwhile, in the real world, thousands upon thousands of cyclists continue to ride their Campy-equipped bikes, happily and problem-free.


----------



## Pirx

tka said:


> The general consensus of the panel (consisting of component manufacturers, frame builders, product managers, and a couple of mechanics) is that the manufacturers need to make the front shift as well as the back, in most part due to the poor shifting skills of today's bike riders.


That sentence is a bit mangled, but I guess where you were going with this is saying that many of today's hobby riders, such as our little friend here, are clueless klutzes that are unable to operate a device as complex as a modern road bike. Thus they really _need_ electronic shifting, because they are simply unable to manually shift a mechanical group. 

You know, this would explain this mystery I have never understood, of people babbling of how much better their new electric group shifts, while this poor slob here simply cannot understand how any system could get any better than the mechanical group he has been riding for the last six years. Frankly, even the shifting on my 1980s steel bike used to be quite close to perfect. Not as convenient, of course, with the downtube shifters, but I never had any missed shifts, and dropped a chain perhaps once every few years or so.


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## goodboyr

....and here is where the thread deteriorates. Up until this post I agreed with you. But why the need to insult? Shimano is good, campy is good, some like electronic, some like mechanical. Its just not true nor necessary to state that those that like electronic better than mechanical are clueless klutzes. You've gone this way in other threads. And once again I disagree. Please take your attitude elsewhere.


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## Pirx

That's not what I said. You may want to try and keep some context here. I have quite a few friends that ride electric systems, that are perfectly competent riders. What I was saying is that there seem to be some riders that are klutzes, and for whom electronic shifting is a godsend. Specifically, I did not say, nor do I think that all users of electric groups are klutzes. Feel free to disagree. 

As far as my attitude, you (a) do not seem to have any understanding of it, and (b) whatever it may be, it's absolutely none of your business, nor do you have any standing at all to tell me what to do with my attitude. Capisce?


----------



## goodboyr

Pirx said:


> That sentence is a bit mangled, but I guess where you were going with this is saying that many of today's hobby riders, such as our little friend here, are clueless klutzes that are unable to operate a device as complex as a modern road bike. Thus they really _need_ electronic shifting, because they are simply unable to manually shift a mechanical group.
> 
> You know, this would explain this mystery I have never understood, of people babbling of how much better their new electric group shifts, while this poor slob here simply cannot understand how any system could get any better than the mechanical group he has been riding for the last six years. Frankly, even the shifting on my 1980s steel bike used to be quite close to perfect. Not as convenient, of course, with the downtube shifters, but I never had any missed shifts, and dropped a chain perhaps once every few years or so.


I must be dense, or I'm reading your words too literally. Its nice that some of your friends use electronic, and they are not clueless klutzes, and they can operate their bikes, and they don't babble. And no where did I claim you said "all". My only point is that this thread is about bad mechanics, and also about the general disagreement with the OP that there is some design flaw with Campy. Its not about the stupid debate that goes on in these parts about electronic vs mechanical. Its also kind of rich that you insinuate that the OP is "babbling", "BS" etc., but when it comes to calling out your attitude, you state its none of my business. I've got bad news for you. You are on a forum. Your statements are viewed by all who care to see. So, therefore when you decide to use insults to argue your points, it is my business as a forum member to call you out. Bottom line< I actually agree with your points, just not the insults.


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## Rokh Hard

sounds like the race to release product before it is ready and works properly in the marketplace (2015 campagnolo SR bottom bracket and derailleur) is not serving the company nor the marketplace too well. maybe some more time and they will get it sorted out. i wish them luck with that. 

that said, my 2014 Rokh press fit bottom bracket with ultegra setup works like a charm, did so out of the box. still does today. logged some fun, trouble free miles last year, some good adventures....changed out a broken cable and put on a new chain, (after which it threw it a couple of times), but with the tweek of a screw its perfect, as it should be. no chain guard, no little lever on hardware, no hacks, no special magic grease, no mfg or dealer drama, no add on crutches....it just works, all the time, no excuses.....did so after a 8hr nasty ride in the wet. its bullet proof in comparison to the campy product. by the conversations i had with those on group rides, di2 owners, chats in shops, ect.....i should see the same performance from the di2 setup. digit. :thumbsup:





tka said:


> Get used to seeing CampyAids, ShimanoAids, SramAids or PinarellosSavers, they are going to be come more common, and if some of the frame manufactures have their way, mandatory.
> 
> I had the opportunity to attend a meeting earlier this year about trends in road bikes, and after disc brakes improving front shifting/preventing front misshifts was right up there as a top trend.
> 
> The general consensus of the panel (consisting of component manufacturers, frame builders, product managers, and a couple of mechanics) is that the manufacturers need to make the front shift as well as the back, in most part due to the poor shifting skills of today's bike riders. This means the shift aids (pins & gates) on the chainrings are getting much more aggressive. The down side of this is that more tossed chains were inevitable with these designs, so all saw that chain catchers would become more common as "standard equipment." They thought Campagnolo was ahead of the general trend by offering their own catcher, although they did express surprise that it wasn't included with the FD. (No Campagnolo rep was on the panel.)
> 
> The frame builders said they are seeing an increase in frame damage and warranty claims related to chain damage, enough that they are thinking of REQUIRING chain catchers. One went as far as saying they were planning on building in a chain catcher on one of their new designs, and not using it would be basis for denying warranty claims.
> 
> They all said (the mechanics in particular) that set-up on all the new systems is much more critical than in the past. Everyone said that every frame had to be faced, BB threads checked & chased, derailleur hanger checked, and general frame alignment check, and all the parts installed precisely in order to ensure the systems will work right.


----------



## Pirx

Well, your trolling does start to get repetitive now. 

Don't you worry too much about Campagnolo, or the marketplace. Believe it or not, but both are doing just fine without your approval. ut:

Enjoy your electric group. :ihih:


----------



## tka

Pirx said:


> That sentence is a bit mangled, but I guess where you were going with this is saying that many of today's hobby riders, such as our little friend here, are clueless klutzes that are unable to operate a device as complex as a modern road bike. Thus they really _need_ electronic shifting, because they are simply unable to manually shift a mechanical group.


Actually they were referring to much of the pro peleton. One of the mechanics had few kind words for the pro riders, said most of them were pretty clueless on how the equipment actually work. Said far too many of the pros have absolutely no idea how to shift/when to shift. Most of them will shift under full load then get pissed at the equipment when it doesn't work under those loads. As one of them put it, most cyclist figure out something is wrong if they shift, get some grinding noise, and the bike won't go anywhere. Many of the pros just keep hammering on until parts start falling off, then wonder why they were given that piece of junk. The weekend warriors benefit from their ineptitude.


----------



## Rokh Hard

orange_julius said:


> From all of this, the only thing to infer is this is why lots of people don't bother with Campagnolo's US distribution. You get neither good service nor good price.


yeah.....its one of those things....that once you start talking about your experience others share their common experience and misfortune as well, like the whistle blower effect i suppose, takes some balls to speak out against Campagnolo as it turns out as thats what im hearing allot of now....mostly from those who work in the shops, and service the stuff and those who see this stuff come and go and hear their gripes and stories about Campagnolos pricing, functionality, service, ect. im glad i didnt get too far into it with them as it might have been a bit more messy, instead of Velos simple and effective solution - "how can we make it right?"...."take it off my bike".


----------



## Rokh Hard

Donn12 said:


> I have 2013 SR EPS so definitely different but I had the same issue.


maybe the dropping effects were covered up more with the self trimming in the EPS chasing the sloppy bottom bracket around via the chain rings!!! :thumbsup:


----------



## harmitc

Most of this thread is a load of dross. But....if the bottom bracket width is to std on the frame and this isn't Campagnolos problem. You then install, two cups, two halves of the crank, making sure one clip to hold a bearing and one wave washer is in place. You then tighten the whole lot up. If you've done it right voila no problems, no play, crank spins great. Front mech on, to make it easy use the alignment tool, if not go old school. Cable up, adjust, IT WORKS FINE, ABSOLUTELY FINE, it's a bike, there're actually pretty simple? Even the DI2/EPS are pretty easy to set up and get right if the basics are correct. Love it or not Campagnolo works just fine,


----------



## harmitc

Forgot to say even on a new frame it pays to tap and face the bottom bracket. Just good practice that any mechanic or shop should do?


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## 1Butcher

Agree. Assuming there is 2mm of BB play and that some of the best shops in the area can/could not resolve that, it is sad.

I'm certain there is more to the story, but we'll never know. I'm also certain it's not the parts.


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## Rokh Hard

harmitc said:


> making sure one clip to hold a bearing and one wave washer is in place.


herein lies the problem, the thrust washer that campagnolo is using to take up the slop that is inherent with varying width bottom brackets widths allows for slop in the system to occur. they try to remove this slop via a thrust washer which is compressible. you dont want your bottom bracket compressing parts in this application! compress the thrust washer equals slop in the bottom bracket. this is not a good design for this application as it allows for slop in the bottom bracket to occur when under load and pedaling as it is compressing the thrust washer. this play/slop afforded by the thrust washer compressing allows for play in bottom bracket. this is not the proper application of this design and is the weak point in the system in which systemic problems occur... slipping the chain, sloppy shifts, throwing the chain, jamming the chain and/or breaking off the derailleur and/or cage



> You then tighten the whole lot up. If you've done it right voila no problems, no play, crank spins great.


the campagnolo ultra torque crank spins with axial play/slop because of the design. this is fact.

this design is not appropriate for this application for as the crank moves side to side so do the chain rings (as they are attached to the crank) thereby in effect allowing for the front derailleur to float in and out of adjustment as you pedal resulting in but not limited to: slipping the chain, sloppy shifts, throwing the chain, jamming the chain and/or breaking off the derailleur and/or cage, premature bearing wear. 

the hirth joint, thrust washer, retaining clip design, is the fundamental flaw within this application as it allows the axle to float on the axial plane. in an effort to hold fast to poor design campagnolo has hacked fixes and band aids to try and correct this fundamental design problem, which include but not limited to: chain catchers, front derailleur with frame mount reinforcement system/arm "S2 Secure Shifting System", thrust washers, bearing clips, hydrid systems with chorus derailleur ad infinitum. 



> Front mech on, to make it easy use the alignment tool, if not go old school. Cable up, adjust, IT WORKS FINE, ABSOLUTELY FINE, it's a bike, there're actually pretty simple?



you are correct....it is a bike, it is simple, however with campaganolos ultra torque bottom bracket design that uses a fixed width hirth joint which allows for axial slop via a thrust washer in varying width bottom brackets, this design complicates a otherwise simple system. wavy/thrust washers and clips do not make up for nor lock down the crank on the axial plane, this is the design flaw within this otherwise simple system. time for another field trip to shimano for those campy engineers!




> Love it or not Campagnolo works just fine,


oh, i love the look of the campagnolo 2015 super record grouppo. who doesnt? its what initially attracted me, that and the lore of the best of the best. i love the italian aesthetic and the sexyness of it all....but sex appeal isnt going to tighten up a sloppy bottom bracket, keep the chain from dropping and the front deraillure from breaking....no matter how much saliva or man mustard i drool on the thing. 

campagnolos ultra torque bottom bracket, front derailleur design and set up does not work fine it cant, it allows for movement of the crank on the axial plane. its that simple.

if this system did work and did not allow for movement on the axial plane, this discussion would not be taking place. others would not be having similar problems with their ultra torque bottom brackets and super record front derailleur systems. if this product worked fine, was simple, uncomplicated and not sloppy, i would not be switching to shimano, campagnolo would not be forced to create hacks in an attempt to get their system to function properly and have otherwise reasonable mechanics and techs stand in front of me crosseyed saying "this play is acceptable and how they designed it"....instead i would be on the side of the road someplace up in the san gabriel mountains enjoying the views of the los angeles basin below while slobbering and masterbating on my fully operational, ultra sexy, 2015 campagnolo super record grouppo. its that simple.


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## harmitc

The tolerance (slop) is taken out on the dead side of the crank. It's fixed on the drive side. That's why there's a clip on the drive side and a wave washer on the dead side.


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## Rokh Hard

harmitc said:


> The tolerance (slop) is taken out on the dead side of the crank. It's fixed on the drive side. That's why there's a clip on the drive side and a wave washer on the dead side.



yes, in theory this may work...but in practice, under load it does not.


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## Rokh Hard

harmitc said:


> Forgot to say even on a new frame it pays to tap and face the bottom bracket. Just good practice that any mechanic or shop should do?



agreed! :thumbsup:


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## tka

Rokh Hard said:


> yeah.....its one of those things....that once you start talking about your experience others share their common experience and misfortune as well, like the whistle blower effect i suppose, takes some balls to speak out against Campagnolo as it turns out as thats what im hearing allot of now....mostly from those who work in the shops, and service the stuff and those who see this stuff come and go and hear their gripes and stories about Campagnolos pricing, functionality, service, ect. im glad i didnt get too far into it with them as it might have been a bit more messy, instead of Velos simple and effective solution - "how can we make it right?"...."take it off my bike".


Hint for you - Don't believe everything you hear in a shop. Even the mechanics are trained to sell. Once we know you have a beef with a particular product we will feed you the bad stories, then hook you on buying something else. You want bad Campagnolo stories, we've got them. You think Shimano sucks - have I got stories for you. That SRAM garbage just ruining your day, I'll make you feel so bad about it that you'll jump at getting something new.

If you want to see what they really think ask about their personal ride and not the latest proform purchase. Guaranteed not to be the latest stuff out, and it will be reliable gear. That will tell you what they really think more than anything else. At the shop I'm work at now virtually every mechanic's bike (and a lot of the sales peoples) has a Campag UT crank, whether they are running Campag, Shimano, or Sram drivetrains. And the really funny part about this: We sell no Campag equipped bikes, and service fewer of them because a Campag Pro-Shop is about a mile away.


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## Rokh Hard

1Butcher said:


> I think it is suspicious that a highly recommended Campagnolo tech did not find 2mm of BB play. But hey, this is the internet and everything is true.


he didnt find it (i showed him), even after he worked on it for hours with the direction of campagnolo usa on the phone. 

who showed the bottom bracket slop it to him? i did. i did when i picked up my bike from them. the campagnolo promechanic then handed me his personal bike with the same setup, "try this!".....i performed the same basic test (pushing on the bottom bracket), on his bike showing slop in his own bottom bracket on his personal bikes super record. and yes, there was the awkward moment of silence.....after which the reasoning, justifying and excusing for this slop by the promechanic began to spew forth. it was rather sad to see actually, but alas thats where it was left....along with the my broken shifter and no offer of solution by campagnolo usa.

ultimately, a company can have the best marketing, the best (self professed) design, best mystique, highest priced and the best looking product on the market....but if they dont have adequate service to back it up, it doesn't amount for anything but words.


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## Rokh Hard

and what shop do you work at??!?!?! 




tka said:


> Hint for you - Don't believe everything you hear in a shop. Even the mechanics are trained to sell. Once we know you have a beef with a particular product we will feed you the bad stories, then hook you on buying something else. You want bad Campagnolo stories, we've got them. You think Shimano sucks - have I got stories for you. That SRAM garbage just ruining your day, I'll make you feel so bad about it that you'll jump at getting something new.


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## harmitc

If the pro mechanic had 2mm of play in his own BB why would you expect him to find it in your bike? He's not a pro mechanic? They've sold 1000's of these cranks if everyone was like this even Campagnolo would have changed it. Pro teams ride it and I've got enough of them on my bikes to know that correctly installed you don't get play like that.


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## Rokh Hard

actually the bulk and most damage was done at the campaganolo proshop by a campagnolo mechanic under the direction of campaganolo usa....included in this is the fact that they broke the shift lever and returned the bike to me in worse condition than i gave it to them. to top it off campagnolo just let it slide with no attempt or offer to correct or resolve.


by contrast velo pasadena is taking full responsibility for all the hassle, damage and dissatisfaction caused by campagnolo and their 2015 campagnolo super record system by simply saying "what would you like to do, how can we help you?"....."take this off my bike and put on shimano durace or di2"....."you got it". they listen to my request and honored that request.

again, i cannot and will not hold the retailer velo pasadena responsible for a mfg whos product does not work properly or as designed, however i can expect they offer a workable solution when these cases arise, and that is what Velo Pasadena has done. they have met that expectation, which i cannot say for campagnolo usa. 

to be clear, at this time i have 100% complete satisfaction with Velo Pasadena in their efforts to make a non workable product work. additionally when all things were exhausted with the mfg they continued to provide excellent customer support and satisfaction and made it right executing my wishes; sans drama, back talk, excuses, hack remedies, ect. they just did what it took to have me as a satisfied customer and get my bike on the road. velo pasadena did what it took to make me, the customer happy and for that i am pleased. excellent work velo pasadena.





> There's permanent damage to the frame now, no sweet talking or camaraderie is going to fix that. There's so many red flags here about their work, and there has been since this OP has been talking about them, since before he got this bike. Shame. Oh well.


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## goodboyr

Lol. Chevy, BMW............Shimano, Campy..........lol.


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## Rokh Hard

:thumbsup:


Toyota, Fiat.......Shimano, Campy!





goodboyr said:


> Lol. Chevy, BMW............Shimano, Campy..........lol.


----------



## Coolhand

*Moderators Note*



Pirx said:


> That sentence is a bit mangled, but I guess where you were going with this is saying that many of today's hobby riders, such as our little friend here, are clueless klutzes that are unable to operate a device as complex as a modern road bike. Thus they really _need_ electronic shifting, because they are simply unable to manually shift a mechanical group.
> 
> You know, this would explain this mystery I have never understood, of people babbling of how much better their new electric group shifts, while this poor slob here simply cannot understand how any system could get any better than the mechanical group he has been riding for the last six years. Frankly, even the shifting on my 1980s steel bike used to be quite close to perfect. Not as convenient, of course, with the downtube shifters, but I never had any missed shifts, and dropped a chain perhaps once every few years or so.


Knock off the insults please.


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## Pirx

Coolhand said:


> Knock off the insults please.


Sure thing.

And, thanks!


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## Rokh Hard

> If the pro mechanic had 2mm of play in his own BB why would you expect him to find it in your bike? He's not a pro mechanic?



i see it as not a matter of who found what, or the expectation therein (we were both surprised at the slop/play in both bikes bottom bracket!) but more on the matter of the presence of slop in the bottom bracket in the first place. there should be no slop or float in the bottom bracket. if campagnolo should redesign the bottom bracket without the chance of slop in the axis then a vast majority of their front derailleur issues will be resolved! :thumbsup:


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## Pirx

You have been told, multiple times, that a properly installed Campagnolo Ultratorque crankset will have no "slop" in the bottom bracket. I will note that this is a _fact_, which rigorously follows from the specific design of these parts. In other words, if you have a Campagnolo Ultratorque crankset that displays a significant amount of axial play in the bottom bracket, the logical conclusion is that the part has not been properly installed.

Now, you have been asked before to point us to reports of other users who have this issue of lateral play, and, other than the anecdote with your "mechanic", you have not responded. Nor, evidently, did your search of the RBR forums turn up _even a single instance_ of this "problem". 

You have likewise not responded to the request of pointing us to a substantial number of reports of FD issues with any Campagnolo groupsets. 

I will therefore conclude that you have no interest in facts or evidence, nor do you have any understanding of the design and mechanics of the parts in question. I will leave it at that.


----------



## tka

Rokh Hard said:


> and what shop do you work at??!?!?!


Don't be shocked. The backroom (the shop) is usually more profitable than the front room (the sales floor.) And the sales are easier since it is usually something that is needed to fix a bike. Up-sales tend to be the rule rather than the exception "I can put a better tire on for $5 more." But if the customer only wants the $44.95 bike tune up and nothing else done that's what they get. 

FWIW I've worked at 5 shops, the one I'm at now is probably the best one I've worked at just from the owners' attitude on how they treat people, both customers & employees. They want us to keep the customers happy, but the customer isn't always right, so if we need to fire a customer we will. And all of them emphasis selling from the backroom as the margins are better.


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## Rokh Hard

tka said:


> Don't be shocked.


oh....I'm not shocked at all! 

I've spent 20+ years of my life in retail sales, mfg management. not much shocks me.....as to what customers or a company will do to be right and have their way, one thing is for certain is that the customer may not always be right, but if a sales rep or employee makes a customet wrong, fired and to the curb they go. zero tolerance with that behaviour.. my experience with campagnolos flawed design and sloppy customer service comes as a surprise and not what I expected at all, oh well.....next! as the world turns!


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## bikerjulio

Rokh Hard said:


> oh....I'm not shocked at all!
> 
> I've spent 20+ years of my life in retail sales, mfg management. not much shocks me.....as to what customers or a company will do to be right and have their way, one thing is for certain is that the customer may not always be right, but if a sales rep or employee makes a customet wrong, fired and to the curb they go. zero tolerance with that behaviour.. my experience with campagnolos flawed design and sloppy customer service comes as a surprise and not what I expected at all, oh well.....next! as the world turns!


Despite all evidence to the contrary you keep trolling the "flawed design" angle on three threads now on this forum alone. I feel like such a sucker feeding this one.


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## Rokh Hard

bikerjulio said:


> I feel like such a sucker feeding this one.


awe, dude! I'm sorry you feel like a sucker, you arent, please don't there is no need.

folks are taking things way too personally when it's not necessary. there really is no need for hurt feelings, character assinations and the like. . this is one persons experience (mine) with a company and product that didn't go well. in the process I see problems with the design and service received from campanolo, I expected more from them, i had high expectations, they could not deliver on these expectations, but that doest make it an absolute, it's simply my experience. thru this process i come to find out others have similar experiences, while another person may very well have a different experience, but again it does not make it an absolute either. 

this needs be kept in perspective. it's not like lives are being taken or vicious attacks are bring carried out, its not world peace or the global economy at stake....it's the sharing of my experience with campagnolo their products and customer service course, yours may or may not be different, you may have none at all, and all of this is ok. it's not the end of the world here. it's a conversation! 

so relax, pour a glass of your favorite beverage, fire up a fattie, grab some popcorn, on kick yer feet up, play nice and enjoy the show! remember we are here because we like bikes and cycling!


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## 1Butcher

Rokh Hard said:


> after speaking with the mech, turns out he set it up same/same.....well.....2015 is different and not same/same. rewind and follow the directions.....there is allot to be said for shop loyality, where everyone has a chance to correct and learn something new......yeah....the chain "skid plate" on the F8 is a little chewed up and would not have been had they followed the instructions and not their instinct.


How is it that you love those guys at Lego Pasadena when they do not know how to build your bike and went by 'instinct'? They ruined your brand new frame because they built it wrong. I would not ask for a new frame, but expect one. A good shop would insist on giving you a new frame [at least fix it so it looks new, complete with warranty].



Rokh Hard said:


> in late feb i took possession of this beautiful machine.......my first test laps were in the safety of the rose bowl.....free of distractions. get familiar with the new systems, when less than 10mins into the ride the front derailleur drops the chain to the inside....shifting from the small ring to the big, drops the chain. no problem, its a simple adj issue....back to the bike shop i go.....simple....or so i thought.....
> 
> the next month (month of march) the bike has been in the shop more time than out on the road....a total of 4 times....same thing, drop the chain to the inside....take to shop, adj.....drop chain.....take to shop, adj, drop chain....wash, rinse, repeat. heck, they even rebuilt the whole thing at my request. love those guys at velo pasadena.
> 
> after all that back n forth, its still dropping the chain on the small to big chainring upshift. two weeks ago out of frustration and a willingness to find a solution, i call campagnolo usa in socal


A 10 minute road test and you ruined your frame and they admitted that they did not build it correctly? After several attempts, they did not call Campagnolo, but it appears that you had too. Is that great customer service? You had to drive across LA traffic to have them look at it. Really, what part of great customer service is that?

With all the bad mouthing you have to say about Campagnolo and the great service you have received from Lego Pasadena, I'm surprised that the Lego shop has not asked to to stop praising their 'great customer service'. Some of us who live in the area [not me, I'm in Seattle area and have Branford Bike] can read between the lines and would think if I bought a very expensive bike from them, I would expect it to be built incorrectly, have a damaged frame within the first 10 miles, have to research the problem on my own and give the mechanic the cause of the problem, and have to do my own warranty repairs across town in LA traffic.

Next time when I'm in LA, I will have to see if they are still in business. I wonder what you would say if you had the bike built right the first time, no drama, and no 4+ page thread. 

Let me guess, you would be riding your bike with a happy face?

But then again, maybe you work for a competitor that has a lot of Di2 on the shelf.


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## ccurry007

I do live near Velo Pasadena, and I'm fighting the urge to go over and get their take on a customer unwittingly trashing their shop on an internet forum. But I don't really have a dog in this fight, so to speak.
OP, you think you are performing a public service whistleblowing on Campagnolo. That's not credible. Hundreds of thousands, millions, of Campagnolo groupsets are in the field working perfectly, including my own 2015 setup, and a handful of UltraTorque based builds I have.
You should be riding on a replaced (because of the damage) frame on Super Record. It's a no brainer. Any other result is disparaging the shop that built the bike.
You exhibit a ceaseless willingness to glaze over the facts and experience offered in this forum, all of which was offered at the outset to be helpful.


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## Rokh Hard

ohmy!! if you're thinking that I'm unhappy with velo Pasadena you're sorely mistaken! I have nothing but big for love for them. best bike shop best service anywhere, they are the best.......as for campagnolo usa and east-west bikes, not so much big love. 




ccurry007 said:


> I do live near Velo Pasadena, and I'm fighting the urge to go over and get their take on a customer unwittingly trashing their shop on an internet forum. But I don't really have a dog in this fight, so to speak.
> OP, you think you are performing a public service whistleblowing on Campagnolo. That's not credible. Hundreds of thousands, millions, of Campagnolo groupsets are in the field working perfectly, including my own 2015 setup, and a handful of UltraTorque based builds I have.
> You should be riding on a replaced (because of the damage) frame on Super Record. It's a no brainer. Any other result is disparaging the shop that built the bike.
> You exhibit a ceaseless willingness to glaze over the facts and experience offered in this forum, all of which was offered at the outset to be helpful.


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## orange_julius

If a car dealer sells me a car and a roof rack, install the rack on the car, yet within yards of driving off the rack crumbles and scratches the car, I think I'd be really really mad at that dealer. I would never accept, "Please get with the importer of the roof rack," and even worse to accept a different roof rack on the same scratched up car. 

For sure I will want either a full reimbursement or a complete replacement of everything up to the point of satisfaction.


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## Pirx

Rokh Hard said:


> ohmy!! if you're thinking that I'm unhappy with velo Pasadena you're sorely mistaken!


You really don't get it, do you? 

What part of "unwittingly" (what an apt word in this situation, by the way!) is it that you do not understand? We know you don't realize what it is you are doing here, but everybody else reading your drivel will avoid Velo Pasadena like the plague. 

Good job, I'm sure they will thank you for your "service"...


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## 1Butcher

This sounds a lot like battered person syndrome. Rokh Hard gets poor service because he feels that what he deserves. He only praises the quality of service he gets, because he feels the bike shop will not longer 'service' him if he says anything else.

There is help, trust many of us, there are many other good shops out there. We're here to help.


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## Rokh Hard

more like battered bike syndrome! 

hey....if you want your nice ride beaten about the head and shoulders with service and components that dont work, ive got a couple of good referrals for ya! (campagnolo usa and east west bikes). 

if you want a bike shop who will do what it takes to correct and make right what campagnolo usa and east west bikes did to your bike, ive got a referral for ya! (velo pasadena). :thumbsup:


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## Pirx

Do you or do you not have a chewed-up frame now, which you had bought and paid for as new from Velo Pasadena? 

Do you or do you not ride the bicycle and components you originally purchased from Velo Pasadena?

Given the answers to these two questions it's just too darn bad that nobody having read your story would want to go anywhere near Velo Pasadena. Oh well.


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## Rokh Hard

OJ!! did you get that same 2015 italian roof rack that flys off the car?!!? man, im so sorry to hear about that....i got the same one! (now lets play the italian roof rack defense) :thumbsup:

OJ, did you contact the mfg of the rack? i did. i took it upon myself and called the mfg of the italian roof rack system...shucks, im just proactive like that. 

here is my italian roof rack story, i hope you have better luck than i did!

i spoke to the head of the italian roof rack USA division and told him whats going on with my awesome italian roof rack, after which he told me to take it to this guys shop in LA. the italian roof rack USA rep said this guy is the best and knows all and everything about their italian roof racks, and he will sort it out, no problem. so, at the recommendation of the italian roof rack USA mfg rep i took the car and the italian roof rack to the recommended shop to have this italian roof rack tech guru look fix it.

the next day i drove the car and rack to the factory recommended guru. i was thinking this must be some super special italian roof rack tech guru. the italian roof rack guru and i worked on it all day.....the guru would adjust the rack and i would test drive and the rack would fly off, i would bring it back, the guru would adjust, i would test drive, rack would fly off....this went on for 5hrs. the factory tech guru never got it to stay on the car. he never got it to work. the whole thing got kinda silly, i started to feel bad for the italian roof rack tech guru, but we stayed committed to having it work and i stayed as long as i could.

it was nearing 6pm and i had to meet some friends at the airport, so i had run out of time. the italian roof rack tech guru asked if i could leave it for a week to have the head of italian roof rack USA division look at it "actually hes the worldwide italian roof rack MEGAguru" he wanted troubleshoot it with him. i said, no problem, see you in a week.

a week later i went down to pick up the car expecting the italian roof rack to be fixed, to my surprise the guru told me they could not duplicate the problem! this is after we spent 5 hrs messing with it the week before and after i drove by him several times demonstrating the problem, while having the rack fly off. ultimately he said "ok, i see it, i see it...i get it". so, needless to say i was surprised at the resolve of "we cannot duplicate". at that time i showed the italian roof rack guru a fundamental design flaw that results in slop in the rack retaining system which would allow it to fly off the car. i even showed this to him on his own car with the same italian roof rack, shocked he said "its supposed to do that". the guru and i bantered back an forth about the merits of slop vs no slop in a roof rack fastening system. ultimately i walked out of the italian roof rack tech gurus shop shaking my head in disbelief. no remedy, no offer of followup, nothing....and to top it off the italian roof rack tech guru broke the rack so that i could not work and didnt offer to repair the damage done by their product. this is totally unacceptable.

so, i took my car with the damaged paint and (now) fully inoperable italian roof rack back to the dealer where i purchased it. the dealer asked "what would you like to do RH, how can we help?".....i said "take this POS italian roof rack off my car and put on that japanese roof rack"......"you got it RH".

OJ, i cant help you with the italian roof rack that has the design flaw that allows it to fly off your car thats the italian roof racks problem and job to sort out (although there is a guy who has a solution/hack that might fix it), but if you are like me and you pay big bucks for the best roof rack available you want it to work, as sold, as designed sans hacks, sans band aid additional parts, sans mixing with other italian roof rack parts all in a effort to "make" it work, when it does not because of this fundamental design flaw.

OJ, i hope that the car dealer you purchased your italian roof rack with the design flaw is as honorable and committed to satisfying you, their customer as mine is, because you sure aren't going to get anywhere with the mfg of the italian roof rack, as they are lame.


ultimately everything worked out ok, although i didnt get that sexy italian roof rack i desperately wanted, but who cares how it looks if it flys off the car all the time!? now i got this awesome japanese roof rack system.....life is good, its spring and the birds are singing....best of luck to you! :thumbsup: 


ps....hopefully you can get yours sorted out by may 15 and you can ride with jens and crew up in big bear at the amgen time trials! grande rosso with the japanese roof rack and i will be there! see yah!!! :thumbsup:

AMGEN Tour of California :: Stage 6 - Big Bear Lake






orange_julius said:


> If a car dealer sells me a car and a roof rack, install the rack on the car, yet within yards of driving off the rack crumbles and scratches the car, I think I'd be really really mad at that dealer. I would never accept, "Please get with the importer of the roof rack," and even worse to accept a different roof rack on the same scratched up car.
> 
> For sure I will want either a full reimbursement or a complete replacement of everything up to the point of satisfaction.


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## Pirx

Good story bro. 

So, tell us, while you were driving around with that roof rack dangling off your brand-new car, did you notice all those other cars, _everywhere_ around you, with that very same roof rack? Some of them a couple of years old, some of them just for show, others carrying heavy loads, but _each and every one of them_ perfectly doing its job. You didn't see those, did you? Closed your eyes real tight, didn't you? 

It's alright, we understand. If you had allowed yourself to notice them, you couldn't have helped asking yourself how it can be that all these people are happily driving around with their cool roof racks on their shiny cars, while yours is haplessly dangling off that scratched-up ruin of yours. 

Now now, don't be sad. Didn't this great dealer of yours give you an all new roof rack; even installed it for free on your scratched-up car? Well, sure, it wasn't the rack you had always wanted, and that you're still dying to have, but, hey, it's a roof rack, isn't it? And, fine, so your car is a bit battered now, but that's o.k., at least your roof rack stays put. 

In the end, you have convinced yourself that you really should have never lusted after this wonderful roof rack that everybody else is raving about, so it's alright. That damaged car is your punishment for desiring what was not for you to have. _You_ know that this wonderful rack really has fundamental flaws, and even if nobody else understands this, it's really all that matters. That's your ticket, the classical catharsis. Your world is whole again.

Enjoy your ride.


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## Rokh Hard

considering the extent of the damage to the frame, which is mostly paint/cosmetic, im annoyed, but cool with a little touch up and replace the little skid plate, whatever.....replacing everything (the grouppo) to satisfaction?....yep, velo pasadena has executed that task with 100% results. i requested to remove all of the campagnolo grouppo and replace with di2. no campaganolo groupset on my bike. no sir. not today, not tomorrow. not till they redesign that shady hirth joint bottom bracket with thrust washer nonsense. till then there will always be the chance slop in the bottom bracket and that kit cost too much for that.




orange_julius said:


> For sure I will want either a full reimbursement or a complete replacement of everything up to the point of satisfaction.


----------



## ultimobici

Rokh Hard said:


> considering the extent of the damage to the frame, which is mostly paint/cosmetic, im annoyed, but cool with a little touch up and replace the little skid plate, whatever.....replacing everything (the grouppo) to satisfaction?....yep, velo pasadena has executed that task with 100% results. i requested to remove all of the campagnolo grouppo and replace with di2. no campaganolo groupset on my bike. no sir. not today, not tomorrow. not till they redesign that shady hirth joint bottom bracket with thrust washer nonsense. till then there will always be the chance slop in the bottom bracket and that kit cost too much for that.


There is nothing shady about the hirth-joint or Campag's Ultratorque system. I work for a manufacturer that sells hundreds of UT-equipped bikes every year. Not one has had an issue. In the time I have worked in bike shops I have seen plenty of issues with installations of UT cranks, all of which are remedied by taking the whole crank/BB assembly off, proper prepping of the frame & then reinstallation. I have lost count of the times I have asked "was the frame cut & faced?" and the reply has been "no".

Reading back through this thread, it seems that the original builder didn't install the cranks correctly. That would have been an issue no matter what group you had, Shimano, Campag or Sram. SFA to do with the parts. Everything to do with the wrench.


----------



## Pirx

ultimobici said:


> There is nothing shady about the hirth-joint or Campag's Ultratorque system.


The only thing mildly interesting about this story is the psychology behind it. Like I said, poor Rokh has to tell himself that there must be something "fundamentally wrong" with Campagnolo in order to get over this terrible experience, given the way he has boxed himself in with a combination of unwavering admiration of his bicycle store and complete lack of any mechanical competence on his own. It's a classical coping mechanism. It also means he's impervious to rational thought or argument, as we have seen.


----------



## goodboyr

I'm almost at the point where I am ready to retract my criticism of your previous posts, pirx. At this point I have lost patience with the op.


----------



## Pirx

goodboyr said:


> I'm almost at the point where I am ready to retract my criticism of your previous posts, pirx. At this point I have lost patience with the op.


Nah, no need to retract that; you did have a point. 

As for the OP, yes, he starts to get annoying after a while, until you realize that he really can't help himself. I am truly sorry for the terrible experience he has had, and I do feel some pity for him. In the end it's one of those events where everyone loses. His case really was handled badly by everyone involved, and without the knowledge or skills to at least diagnose the issue himself, he was at the mercy of mechanics who likewise happened to have been hacks. But, he seems happy with his Di2 setup, so my recommendation would be for OP to just let it go, and ride his bike. Simple, innit?


----------



## orange_julius

Rokh Hard said:


> OJ!! did you get that same 2015 italian roof rack that flys off the car?!!? man, im so sorry to hear about that....i got the same one! (now lets play the italian roof rack defense) :thumbsup:
> 
> OJ, did you contact the mfg of the rack? i did. i took it upon myself and called the mfg of the italian roof rack system...shucks, im just proactive like that.


I would never do that. It's the responsibility of the shop that sold me the car and the rack. That Campagnolo USA is not good, most of us know this and accept this. But you argue that UT has fundamental design flaws, and continue to point to either that junk post or Campagnolo USA to support your argument on design flaws. 

All of us reading this thread are convinced Velo Pasadena bungled it up. Yet you continue to defend them. If you are going to argue that Campagnolo USA didn't do right by you, you don't have to waste your energy. Most of us don't bother with them anyway. 

I also know most of us still replying to you are doing so because we sincerely really think Velo Pasadena owes you a completely new frame, not one that is scratched up.


----------



## Rokh Hard

thanks for joining the conversation ultimobici, welcome!

agreed...the wrench (the referred campagnolo tech/promechanic) and ultimately the design of the ultra torque bottom bracket system is at fault.

what the original builder did or did or did not do to the frame in order to get the campagnolo ultra torque system to work is not the issue. dealer liability became a non issue the moment campagnolo and their people got involved, specifically at the moment they handed back the product to the customer unresolved, uncorrected and in worse condition than given. at this point full liability and responsibility of resolving the issues and getting their product to work falls directly upon the mfg campagnolo. campagnolo is also liable for any/all damages to person or property as a result. product liability rarely falls upon the shoulders of a mechanic or retailer/dealer, when the mfg gets involved and cannot resolve the problem (when there is a problem) and hands the product back to the consumer uncorrected, unaddressed, unresolved and in worse condition than when they received it. in this case full liability falls upon the the mfg campagnolo usa, and i have mitigated this liability for campagnolo by removing the offending and poorly designed campagnolo product from the bike in its entirety. to be clearn, there is no amount of debate, no diversionary conversation, nothing is sufficient enough to get around this point. these are the facts.

what is an issue is that the whole mess was handed over to campagnolos top mechanic in Los Angeles and under direction of campagnolo usa together they could not get their product to work. again, to be clear, there is no amount of debate, no diversionary conversation, nothing is sufficient enough to get around this point. these are the facts. 

as a campagnolo customer i expect their product to work, as designed, as sold. campagnolo could not get their product to work. campagnolo did not offer an explanation or offer a remedy. campagnolo return the product to me in worse condition than they received it. these are the facts and this behaviour is not acceptable. 

the moment that campaganolo usa became involved, they are expected take full responsibility and assume all liability to verify and or execute the necessary procedures to ensure that their was installed and performs as designed and as sold (or that it does not). at this point all liability has been removed from dealer/shop that sold and built the bike, unless they can establish that the shop did not follow procedure, which campagnolo was not able to establish. it not the responsibility of the consumer to establish whether nor not proper procedure was executed by the mfg or the dealer as well. 
campagnolo is expected to return the product to the customer or dealer in proper working condition (or not) and offer explanation and/or remedy. campagnolo did neither, therefore campagnolo did not meet this expectation. 
in the alternative campagnolo usa returns the product to the customer in non working order, with additional damage done to the customers product. these are the facts and ultimately not acceptable. 

at the end of all this nonsense is the fact that regardless of the reasons, regardless what you think, regardless what i think or what people here think, campagnolo could not get their product to work properly and they are solely at fault and liable for their product along with any all property and/or personal damages caused as a result.

why campagnolo could or would not get their product to work has been previously explained by the hirth joint/thrust washer/retainer clip design, however i will offer a review here. this is not rocket science by any means. if one has a basic understanding of the way things work, or has the capacity to understand this is a no brainer.


WHY ULTRA TORQUE - 

while campagnolos ultra torque design may work in theory, it is not the correct design for this application, esp where axial loading and tight operational tolerances are expected. 

the hirth joint/thrust washer/retainer design is the flaw which is built into the ultra torque bottom bracket system resulting in a poor performing product, with the possibility of damage and/or personal injury.

the main offender is the thrust washer and retaining clip design. this thrust washer working along side the retaining clip is designed to make up for varying widths of bottom brackets. in the hirth joint ultra torque design the system is variable, it is adjustable and compressible to make up for differences in bottom bracket widths from various frame manufacturers. while this design is keen and works well in accounting for different sized bottom brackets, it is not keen for limiting axial play, in fact it allows axial play to occur. the very existence of the thrust washer/retaining clip allows for play/slop in the bottom bracket when the axle is under load. when under load this washer will do what it is designed to do, which is to compress, however this compression allows for axial play/slop in the bottom bracket. the retaining clip helps remove some of this compression and axial movement and slop, but not all of it. this slop in the bottom bracket makes it next to impossible to achieve positive and effective front derailleur adjustment. without positive and effective front derailleur adj there will always be issues with, but not limited to: sloppy shifting, slow shifting, slipped shifting, chain rubbing, chain dropping, frame damage and/or the possibility of personal injury. 


i do hope that campagnolo addresses their flawed design issues in the ultra torque bottom bracket system as the are the queen marquee in the industry and i would love to showcase their works on one of my bikes, but until then i do not feel comfortable doing so. 






ultimobici said:


> Reading back through this thread, it seems that the original builder didn't install the cranks correctly. That would have been an issue no matter what group you had, Shimano, Campag or Sram. SFA to do with the parts. Everything to do with the wrench.


----------



## ultimobici

I was referring to the idiot who fitted the bb & cranks initially. Although that doesn't excuse those who attempted to remedy it later. 

BUT, you are wrong in your assessment of UT based on your very limited experience of it. 

I've seen all manner of issues with cranksets over the years. UT issues are exclusively down to poor preparation of the frame or incompetent installation. I've never seen a single warranty issue on UT either. 

Anyhow, if you're on Shimano now it's a waste of time convincing you as you've already made your mind up. 

Your loss!


----------



## Rokh Hard

ultimobici said:


> I was referring to the idiot who fitted the bb & cranks initially. Although that doesn't excuse those who attempted to remedy it later.


if campagnolo could establish that proper installation procedure was NOT followed, then yes, the initial person who fitted the bottom bracket and cranks would be at fault, however campagnolo did not establish this, even after having the bike for a full week. 



> BUT, you are wrong in your assessment of UT based on your very limited experience of it.


regardless of my experience with this, the mechanics are very basic in that the hirth joint/thrust washer/retaining clip is not the proper design for this application. please see my previous post regarding this issue. 



> I've seen all manner of issues with cranksets over the years. UT issues are exclusively down to poor preparation of the frame or incompetent installation. I've never seen a single warranty issue on UT either.


the fact that you have not seen any issues with the design, in no way supports that a design flaw does not exist. 

for reference, have a read here, this guy has some interesting findings (and i think hes done several campagnolo ultra torque installs), maybe you can compare notes with him and help campagnolo out with this issue.

Campagnolo Ultra Torque Problem? - RogueMechanic



> Anyhow, if you're on Shimano now it's a waste of time convincing you as you've already made your mind up.
> 
> Your loss!



you are correct! it is my loss! but not a waste of tim, as i really (and still do) want to sport a full italian bike with campagnolo super record grouppo, however given the inherent design flaw of the ultra torque bottom bracket i will not see one on any of my rides until campagnolo resolves this design/application flaw.


----------



## ultimobici

Rokh Hard said:


> thanks for joining the conversation ultimobici, welcome!
> 
> agreed...the wrench (the referred campagnolo tech/promechanic) and ultimately the design of the ultra torque bottom bracket system is at fault.
> 
> what the original builder did or did or did not do to the frame in order to get the campagnolo ultra torque system to work is not the issue. dealer liability became a non issue the moment campagnolo and their people got involved, specifically at the moment they handed back the product to the customer unresolved, uncorrected and in worse condition than given. at this point full liability and responsibility of resolving the issues and getting their product to work falls directly upon the mfg campagnolo. campagnolo is also liable for any/all damages to person or property as a result. product liability rarely falls upon the shoulders of a mechanic or retailer/dealer, when the mfg gets involved and cannot resolve the problem (when there is a problem) and hands the product back to the consumer uncorrected, unaddressed, unresolved and in worse condition than when they received it. in this case full liability falls upon the the mfg campagnolo usa, and i have mitigated this liability for campagnolo by removing the offending and poorly designed campagnolo product from the bike in its entirety. to be clearn, there is no amount of debate, no diversionary conversation, nothing is sufficient enough to get around this point. these are the facts.
> 
> what is an issue is that the whole mess was handed over to campagnolos top mechanic in Los Angeles and under direction of campagnolo usa together they could not get their product to work. again, to be clear, there is no amount of debate, no diversionary conversation, nothing is sufficient enough to get around this point. these are the facts.
> 
> as a campagnolo customer i expect their product to work, as designed, as sold. campagnolo could not get their product to work. campagnolo did not offer an explanation or offer a remedy. campagnolo return the product to me in worse condition than they received it. these are the facts and this behaviour is not acceptable.
> 
> the moment that campaganolo usa became involved, they are expected take full responsibility and assume all liability to verify and or execute the necessary procedures to ensure that their was installed and performs as designed and as sold (or that it does not). at this point all liability has been removed from dealer/shop that sold and built the bike, unless they can establish that the shop did not follow procedure, which campagnolo was not able to establish. it not the responsibility of the consumer to establish whether nor not proper procedure was executed by the mfg or the dealer as well.
> campagnolo is expected to return the product to the customer or dealer in proper working condition (or not) and offer explanation and/or remedy. campagnolo did neither, therefore campagnolo did not meet this expectation.
> in the alternative campagnolo usa returns the product to the customer in non working order, with additional damage done to the customers product. these are the facts and ultimately not acceptable.
> 
> at the end of all this nonsense is the fact that regardless of the reasons, regardless what you think, regardless what i think or what people here think, campagnolo could not get their product to work properly and they are solely at fault and liable for their product along with any all property and/or personal damages caused as a result.
> 
> why campagnolo could or would not get their product to work has been previously explained by the hirth joint/thrust washer/retainer clip design, however i will offer a review here. this is not rocket science by any means. if one has a basic understanding of the way things work, or has the capacity to understand this is a no brainer.
> 
> 
> WHY ULTRA TORQUE -
> 
> while campagnolos ultra torque design may work in theory, it is not the correct design for this application, esp where axial loading and tight operational tolerances are expected.
> 
> the hirth joint/thrust washer/retainer design is the flaw which is built into the ultra torque bottom bracket system resulting in a poor performing product, with the possibility of damage and/or personal injury.
> 
> the main offender is the thrust washer and retaining clip design. this thrust washer working along side the retaining clip is designed to make up for varying widths of bottom brackets. in the hirth joint ultra torque design the system is variable, it is adjustable and compressible to make up for differences in bottom bracket widths from various frame manufacturers. while this design is keen and works well in accounting for different sized bottom brackets, it is not keen for limiting axial play, in fact it allows axial play to occur. the very existence of the thrust washer/retaining clip allows for play/slop in the bottom bracket when the axle is under load. when under load this washer will do what it is designed to do, which is to compress, however this compression allows for axial play/slop in the bottom bracket. the retaining clip helps remove some of this compression and axial movement and slop, but not all of it. this slop in the bottom bracket makes it next to impossible to achieve positive and effective front derailleur adjustment. without positive and effective front derailleur adj there will always be issues with, but not limited to: sloppy shifting, slow shifting, slipped shifting, chain rubbing, chain dropping, frame damage and/or the possibility of personal injury.
> 
> 
> i do hope that campagnolo addresses their flawed design issues in the ultra torque bottom bracket system as the are the queen marquee in the industry and i would love to showcase their works on one of my bikes, but until then i do not feel comfortable doing so.


I've just reread this entire thread and I cannot see how Campagnolo USA can be held responsible for the damage to your bike. They have not had their hands on the bike, they haven't even seen it. The two shops have - Velo Pasadena and East West Bikes. 

My three UT cranks all are rock solid. As almost every poster on this thread has stated, a properly installed UT crank will not have any issues at all. The only time that UT has issues is when the mechanic fitting it is illiterate or sloppy/stupid. Period!


----------



## ultimobici

Rokh Hard said:


> if campagnolo could establish that proper installation procedure was NOT followed, then yes, the initial person who fitted the bottom bracket and cranks would be at fault, however campagnolo did not establish this, even after having the bike for a full week.


Campag USA or EW Bikes?





> regardless of my experience with this, the mechanics are very basic in that the hirth joint/thrust washer/retaining clip is not the proper design for this application. please see my previous post regarding this issue.


The majority of the cycling industry disagrees with your assessment.





> the fact that you have not seen any issues with the design, in no way supports that a design flaw does not exist.


I work for a company that builds and sells several hundred UT equipped bikes. No issues in the 8 years or so of UT. We're a Service Centre too. No problems, AT ALL!! That suggests otherwise.



> for reference, have a read here, this guy has some interesting findings (and i think hes done several campagnolo ultra torque installs), maybe you can compare notes with him and help campagnolo out with this issue.
> 
> Campagnolo Ultra Torque Problem? - RogueMechanic


This guy?? He can't read a flaming manual. His whole schtick is trying to fix issues with poor installation not a flawed product.






> you are correct! it is my loss! i really (and still do) want to sport a full italian bike with campagnolo super record grouppo, however given the inherent design flaw of the ultra torque bottom bracket i will not see one on any of my rides until campaganolo resolves this design/application flaw.


Full Italian? Why'd you buy a Pinarello then? It's about as Italian as a Nissan!


----------



## Rokh Hard

called dan at campagnolo usa in carlsbad told him what was going on and offered to bring it down to him. dan directed me to east west bikes, where, east west bikes would working with and under the direction of campagnolo usa would resolve the problem. 
under the direction of campagnolo usa east west bikes spent many hours troubleshooting the problem. at the direction of campagnolo usa east west bike mounted a gopro to the frame. i was never showed the gopro footage, nor was there ever any explanation or offer to resolve. additionally east west bikes, under the direction of campagnolo usa broke the front shift lever.

that said, campagnolo usa using east west bike as their eyes and ears was directing east west bikes in the troubleshooting of the front derailleur, which ultimately that could not resolve. campagnolo designed a built a system that did not work, and as a result caused damage to it. therefore campagnolo is ultimately responsible and liable for this. 





ultimobici said:


> I've just reread this entire thread and I cannot see how Campagnolo USA can be held responsible for the damage to your bike. They have not had their hands on the bike, they haven't even seen it. The two shops have - Velo Pasadena and East West Bikes.


----------



## ultimobici

Not the same thing. 

And you're wrong about the system being unfit for purpose. The only thing unfit for purpose is the quality of wrenching.


----------



## Rokh Hard

ultimobici said:


> Campag USA or EW Bikes?


both. with regards to my setup they are one in the same, working together.




> The majority of the cycling industry disagrees with your assessment.


majority may rule, but that doesnt make them right....or deny that there is problem with the design/application of this product within the scope of this system.




> I work for a company that builds and sells several hundred UT equipped bikes. No issues in the 8 years or so of UT. We're a Service Centre too. No problems, AT ALL!! That suggests otherwise.


you can expect to see more of them in the future with the 2015 super record setup.




> This guy?? He can't read a flaming manual. His whole schtick is trying to fix issues with poor installation not a flawed product.



no one can fix a design that is flawed within an application. you have to redesign the system for the application. until that happens, the problem will persist.


----------



## ultimobici

Did Campagnolo have *their* hands on your bike at any time? No. It was a guy on the phone to them. Way way different and nigh on impossible to get an accurate picture of the situation. 

If there was a design flaw it'd be a know issue. But it is not. No recall. No changes at all. All UT parts are interchangeable. I have a 09 Record crank with 14 rings spinning in an original set of cups flawlessly. The reason it works? Each time it was fitted (3 bikes), it was properly installed in a frame that was properly prepared. Simple. 

You keep harping on about UT being flawed. It is not. It just needs the mechanic to RTFM!


----------



## orange_julius

ultimobici said:


> My three UT cranks all are rock solid. As almost every poster on this thread has stated, a properly installed UT crank will not have any issues at all. The only time that UT has issues is when the mechanic fitting it is illiterate or sloppy/stupid. Period!


I'll add 7 UT cranks I've installed, 5 of which are ridden by my wife and I, anywhere from 8 years ago to 3 years ago, all are still spinning very smoothly and the groupset shifting smoothly. 

I was talking to another friend who used to be in the bike industry about this thread and he said, "Somebody was lacking serious courage." I asked whom, and he said, "Velo Pasadena. They should have said, 'We will take care of this,' the moment there was an issue." Instead of making the customer chase around the importer of the parts.


----------



## orange_julius

ccurry007 said:


> I do live near Velo Pasadena, and I'm fighting the urge to go over and get their take on a customer unwittingly trashing their shop on an internet forum. But I don't really have a dog in this fight, so to speak.
> OP, you think you are performing a public service whistleblowing on Campagnolo. That's not credible. Hundreds of thousands, millions, of Campagnolo groupsets are in the field working perfectly, including my own 2015 setup, and a handful of UltraTorque based builds I have.
> You should be riding on a replaced (because of the damage) frame on Super Record. It's a no brainer. Any other result is disparaging the shop that built the bike.
> You exhibit a ceaseless willingness to glaze over the facts and experience offered in this forum, all of which was offered at the outset to be helpful.


You should do it. By this point most of us following this, if not all of us other than the OP, is convinced Velo Pasadena is a joke.


----------



## Rokh Hard

campagnolo usa thru extensive troubleshooting could not establish that installation was at fault, if the installation is not a fault, then the product is at fault. its really that simple. 

dance around it all we like, the simple fact is that campagnolo usa could and would not resolve the front derailleur problem. in fact the problem persists. 
campagnolo exacerbated the the problem by breaking the shift lever. 
can we expect campagnolo usa to say "yep, we have a design/application problem with our bottom bracket and/or front derailleur products", most likely not....however that does not mean that a problem does not exist, nor does it release them from liability from damage as a result of the product not functioning as designed and sold to consumers. it really is that simple.






ultimobici said:


> Did Campagnolo have *their* hands on your bike at any time? No. It was a guy on the phone to them. Way way different and nigh on impossible to get an accurate picture of the situation.
> 
> If there was a design flaw it'd be a know issue. But it is not. No recall. No changes at all. All UT parts are interchangeable. I have a 09 Record crank with 14 rings spinning in an original set of cups flawlessly. The reason it works? Each time it was fitted (3 bikes), it was properly installed in a frame that was properly prepared. Simple.
> 
> You keep harping on about UT being flawed. It is not. It just needs the mechanic to RTFM!


----------



## Rokh Hard

orange_julius said:


> I'll add 7 UT cranks I've installed, 5 of which are ridden by my wife and I, anywhere from 8 years ago to 3 years ago, all are still spinning very smoothly and the groupset shifting smoothly.


this thread is regarding the 2015 super record grouppo not a grouppo from anywhere from 8 to 3 years ago, although i am very happy that yours and your wifes is working smoothly. my 2015 grouppo did not.



> I was talking to another friend who used to be in the bike industry about this thread and he said, "Somebody was lacking serious courage." I asked whom, and he said, "Velo Pasadena. They should have said, 'We will take care of this,' the moment there was an issue." Instead of making the customer chase around the importer of the parts.


courage? i think you mean customer service!! :thumbsup:

velo pasadena in no way instructed me to chase the importer/mfg down, i did that on my own. im uppity like that. 

additionally velo pasadena, once informed of the BS that i was going through with east west bikes and campagnolo usa simply said "bring the bike back RH, we will take care of you". i was asked what i wanted to do, i requested that the offending grouppo be removed from the bike and that request was honored. no ifs, ands or buts. that is awesome customer service, however i cannot say the same for east west bikes or campagnolo usa.


----------



## ultimobici

Rokh Hard said:


> campagnolo usa thru extensive troubleshooting could not establish that installation was at fault, if the installation is not a fault, then the product is at fault. its really that simple.
> 
> dance around it all we like, the simple fact is that campagnolo usa could and would not resolve the front derailleur problem. in fact the problem persists.
> campagnolo exacerbated the the problem by breaking the shift lever.
> can we expect campagnolo usa to say "yep, we have a design/application problem with our bottom bracket and/or front derailleur products", most likely not....however that does not mean that a problem does not exist, nor does it release them from liability from damage as a result of the product not functioning as designed and sold to consumers. it really is that simple.


How did they break the shifter when they were not even there?? East West Bikes broke the shifter plain and simple. It is nigh on impossible to troubleshoot an issue on any bike if you are at the end of a phone. You cannot feel anything, you can't really hear things as they actually are. All they were able to do was hazard a guess and rely on the "wrench" on the phone to them. Having read the bio for them I have to wonder what wrenching qualifications or experience he has, if any.

If there was an issue with UT it would be noticed by the industry. Campagnolo are not big enough to sweep stuff like this under the carpet. Yet, despite selling hundreds of UT cranksets of all varieties, we've seen zero issues. Not one. Nada. NONE!!


----------



## ultimobici

BTW, we've sold through our first batch of 2015 Chorus groups. So, that's 15 Chorus groups with not one single issue. Plus half a dozen 2015 Record and a similar number of SR11.


----------



## Rokh Hard

orange_julius said:


> You should do it. By this point most of us following this, if not all of us other than the OP, is convinced Velo Pasadena is a joke.



do it! call them, ask for matthew. they are the best. operators are standing by!! :thumbsup:


----------



## Rokh Hard

ultimobici said:


> BTW, we've sold through our first batch of 2015 Chorus groups. So, that's 15 Chorus groups with not one single issue. Plus half a dozen 2015 Record and a similar number of SR11.



awesome! i wish you luck!! :thumbsup:

and remember to hit this guy up when problems arise and campagnolo usa isnt responding, he might be able to help you out. 

Campagnolo Ultra Torque Problem? - RogueMechanic


----------



## ultimobici

I don't need luck, thanks. We employ literate mechanics with proper training.

Every frame is faced & has the threads chased before being built. So RetardMechanic's "help" will never be needed.

Enjoy your SE Asian bike.


----------



## Rokh Hard

ultimobici said:


> How did they break the shifter when they were not even there??


campagnolo usa felt confident that putting their best pro mechanic in los angeles, on the job, "in absentia".

my friend, this is not rocket science. this is bicycle science. if NASA can trouble shoot and sort out problems on a platform hundreds of thousands of miles away "in absentia" by phone or other such two way communication device, im confident that campagnolo usa could do the same with a simple bicycle bottom bracket and front derailleur. ultimately it doesn't matter what I think or what you or we think about campagnolo usa referring to one of thier proshop mechanics, they this saw it appropriate, regardless they could not or would not resolve this simple problem, that of the chronically dropping chain on the front derailleur. that said at this point i feel lucky and fortunate that velo pasadena facilitated pulling the plug on the 2015 campagnolo super record system before some really serious problems, damage or injury occurred. 

thank you velo pasadena for your top shelf customer service by picking up the ball where the campagnolo dropped it! :thumbsup:


----------



## Pirx

Let's give a quick summary here:


Rokh continues fantasizing about having had an interaction with "Campagnolo USA", when in reality all he ever interacted with was a couple of mechanics at Velo Pasadena and East West Bikes.
Rokh also imagines some involvement of "Campagnolo USA" when in reality all they did is call up EW Bikes and tell them there's a guy coming in who has issues with his FD. His fantasies about EW Bikes working "under the direction of Campagnolo USA" are nothing but that.
Rokh imagines having uncovered a "design flaw" in Campagnolo's UltraTorque system, a BB system that has been working flawlessly on hundreds of thousands of road bikes for almost a decade now. No further comment is needed.
Rokh quotes a crackpot known under the moniker of "RogueMechanic" as the source of his wisdom. We will note that this person has been identified as a quack years ago.
Rokh is completely impervious to rational argument and has, so far, not addressed a single one of the arguments offered to him. All he ever does is repeat the same mantra of how "Campagnolo USA" wronged him.
Without realizing it, Rokh keeps smearing the reputation of Velo Pasadena. I will note that I looked them up, and while pricey, they seem to get mostly positive feedback. The damage that Rokh does to their reputation by repeating his inane BS in this forum is all the more unfortunate. I would be truly curious to see their reaction to his smear campaign in here.


----------



## Pirx

Rokh Hard said:


> and remember to hit this guy up when problems arise and campagnolo usa isnt responding, he might be able to help you out.


Hon, didn't you just say that "this thread is regarding the 2015 super record grouppo not a grouppo from anywhere from 8 to 3 years ago"? So what does the babbling of that fool have to do with your thread? You cannot have it both ways, my friend.

Oh, and what, pray tell, is a "grouppo"? 



Rokh Hard said:


> campagnolo usa [blah blah]
> 
> [...] im confident that campagnolo usa could [blah blah]


You continue fantasizing. See my post above.

I will note that it becomes harder by the post to not see you as nothing but a raving lunatic from the way you continue ignoring well-meant responses to you. Like I said, I know you are deeply hurt inside, but if you refuse to all the voices of reason trying to give you helpful advice in this thread, you cannot be helped.

Note to moderator: I did not (yet) call this poster a "raving lunatic".


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## orange_julius

Pirx said:


> Without realizing it, Rokh keeps smearing the reputation of Velo Pasadena. I will note that I looked them up, and while pricey, they seem to get mostly positive feedback. The damage that Rokh does to their reputation by repeating his inane BS in this forum is all the more unfortunate. I would be truly curious to see their reaction to his smear campaign in here.


Wait wait wait .... maybe he DOES actually know exactly what he is doing. Maybe this is what he wanted to do all along, while in reality he has done the sensible thing and asked for a full refund. 

GENIUS.


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## Pirx

I agree, that would be a neat play. However, somehow I get the feeling that our OP, shall we say, lacks the capacity for this kind of a ploy...


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## bikerjulio

OP has posted the same story on three threads, and I'd put a fuller response on one of the others:

A few weeks ago I got into a geekish discussion on Weightweenies about the function of the DS clip on UT systems (same in 2015 BTW).

@Calnago had written out his (wrong) understanding of its function



> The C-clip is there for installation purposes and holds the crank in place while lining up the two sides and prevents the accidental pushing out of the expensive drive side crank and dropping it out. Once it's installed it doesn't do much, kinda like the top cap on stems. Once a bit of compression is applied and the stem tightened to the steertube you could completely remove the top cap if desired.


One of the most educated people on Campy matters on the intwerwebs right now is Graeme at Velotech in the UK who are the UK's prime Campy service Center.

Here is Graeme's post:



> +1 bikerjulio and ghisallo2003 ... the clip most definiely does serve exactly the function bikerjulio & I describe in our respective posts (thanks for digging out the quote, ghisallo2003 ... and you are right, my friend, it's "pretty mental" in and out of the workshop just now!)
> 
> The function of the drive-side external clip is the reason that the RH bearing is retained with a c-clip - the ends of the clip drop in between the bearing and the outer lip seal *and prevent more than 0.25 mm or so* of lateral movement.
> 
> If you have gotten away without the clip *with no degradation of function of the front shift*, bogusdogs, and with no noise from the BB, this suggests that you may have a frame slightly over spec for effective BB width, or maybe that you are a very, very smooth pedaller and don't side-load the BB assembly significantly - however, I'd still fit the clip when you reassemble!
> 
> A third possibility is, I suppose, that some lunatic has done the "wavywasherectomy" described by RogueBikeMechanic - in which case I'd take a very, very careful look at the condition of the Hirth Joint ...


This was immediately followed by Calnago again who had been in contact with Campy USA



> Ok, I respect bikerjulios and Graemes comments but someone should then inform Campagnolo NA and Trek, because I went back and forth between them on this issue. Campagnolo NA told me over the phone pretty much exactly what I wrote, and if it was so important I don't think a company like Trek would risk omitting it entirely. Perhaps there may have been a misunderstanding on the phone with Campy NA but I don't think so.


Certainly the instructions and instructional videos make it clear that the clip is to be installed, but there seem to be a lot of people around who think they know better.

Campagnolo Ultra Torque Removal Help - Weight Weenies


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## Pirx

Stories like these do make you wonder, however, what kind of an outfit is "Campagnolo USA" really? Do we know how much and what kind of staff they have? Does Campagnolo USA offer any kind of training? A certification perhaps? Or are they just a marketing outfit and importer?

I should say that, my criticism of the OP notwithstanding, Campagnolo USA does not come away looking particularly good here. While many of OP's allegations are over-the-top, and some are outright BS, there is some kernel of truth in his blaming of Campagnolo USA for part of this mess.


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## goodboyr

My guess is that they are mostly marketing, sales and distribution and use a cursory product knowledge to field the rare question. I mean exactly how often do we think an lbs is actually going to ask campy a technical question. These are shops that install hundreds of campy parts. So, really these are probably sales people answering the phone. Thus the misinformation.


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## Pirx

Well, that would be a problem. All of these shops must have started selling and installing Campagnolo parts at some point, and chances are that before they did that, they only handled Shimano, and perhaps SRAM. So, when they first start installing Campagnolo sets, where do the mechanics learn how to do it right? Sure, they could just RTFM, but we all know how well that works...  So then you end up with shops, and even large OEMs like Trek making fundamental mistakes when installing Campagnolo gear, and you end up with stories like the one that generated this thread. If this is how Campagnolo handles their business in the USA, then that's just rank stupidity, I am sorry to say.


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## goodboyr

Its statistics for them. As everyone here has pointed out, the vast majority of installs are OK, (or perhaps only the ones that either riders do themselves or fix themselves). I would also say that shimano is not immune to sloppy and stupid lbs's. Are there examples of shimano being asked questions and responding incorrectly? I certainly know that shimano tends to exaggerate compatibility issues.


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## Pirx

You are right, of course, but that situation is still a problem. Not that that's anything new; we all know that it's Campagnolo's piss-poor handling of their operations in the US (and possibly elsewhere too) that's holding them back (and indeed preventing world domination ). Certainly if I wasn't someone who can do all of his wrenching himself, I really don't know if I wanted to be at the mercy of any of the local bicycle stores when it comes to Campagnolo equipment...


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## goodboyr

Yup. Totally agree.


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## Rokh Hard

GRANDE ROSSO RIDES!

well gents! i just got back from a most incredible afternoon test ride with the F8 aka "Grande Rosso" and the new Shimano Di2 system (replacing the inoperable 2015 Campagnolo Super Record). this Di2 setup is simply magnificent! crisp, clean, quiet positive shifts (that 2015 SR set sounded like an old train on the tracks, when it was working). the dura ace di2 system, it just works. no ifs, ands or buts! and it looks super lovely! i would say the di2 is the long legged big boobed blonde who puts out and then some! excellent work shimano!

excellent work velo pasadena! 

big love and mucho thanks to the crew at velo pasadena! those mechanics are incredible and the service is the best to be had in socal. velo pasadena went above and beyond in picking up pieces of my broken bike (sounds like a song!) that campaganolo usa and east west bikes made a shambles of. in speaking with velo pasadena mechs they did the install by the book, including race n chase, that said, i do hope campagnolo gets their problems sorted out, im sure they will in due time.

take care, play nice and keep the rubber on the road! 

Rokh Hard aka Grande Rosso!!!

ps - if you are in the socal area on may 15 head on up to big bear for the AToC time trials! hoist a few frothy ones and have some laughs over all this sillyness! ciao bellas!

AMGEN Tour of California :: Stage 6 - Big Bear Lake


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## goodboyr

OMG........you just guaranteed another 10 pages of posts.....


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## 1Butcher

6 pages of garbage that could have been sifted down to 1 because of one poster.

Reminds me of the time I was researching the issues I might come across installing a SR crankset in a carbon OSBB SW Tarmac SL3. Several very informative threads, most of them were spread out to several pages because of some rambling nonsense of my friend RW.

I miss those days, waking up and reading the udder nonsense. Are these people real?

As for Campagnolo USA knowing how to work on bikes? Most likely not. They sell and distribute. That is about what I would expect. I have no experience with Campagnolo USA, but I do with Mercedes Benz USA. After almost 25 years with them, there is a handful of engineers that know the product and have real world experience. Most have told me to do what I needed to and let them know what I found. I remember one argument between two engineers about how to fix it. One mentioned to just let the 'Butcher' fix it since he knows more than both of us about the problem.

Rokh's problem is that he had no one like Graeme from the UK [practical experience and knowledge of the system] to assist with the installation. The proof is that Mathew did not install the front derailleur correctly the first time. The second is that Mathew did not research what he did wrong and someone here had to tell Rokh what Mathew did wrong. The third is that Mathew did not check the BB installation either. 

I believe there are just a few people in the world that really love their job. Those people go above and beyond to know why/how it is done right. That love and passion trumps any schooling that others may have had. If they're out there, they're not working in the automotive field.

My biggest issue with this entire thread we are relying on Rokh's story to be real/true. I believe we all here are suckers. Rokh and RW are good to get people to argue about nothing important. RW has been resolved.


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## goodboyr

+1000


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## MMsRepBike

It just dawned on me that the OP is probably being paid by Velo Pasadena or has some sort of family connection or something there.

The posts and comments about them are 100% shill posts. 

The facts are clear but the OP is very persistent, so that leaves a shill. If not a shill the OP is clearly suffering from brain damage.


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## Pirx

Yeah, I have to agree with the sucker part myself, too, unfortunately.



1Butcher said:


> Rokh and RW are good to get people to argue about nothing important. RW has been resolved.


Rokh has been warned. I have this hunch that Velo Pasadena had a word with him, too.


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## tka

I told myself that I wasn't going to fan this one any further but I had an incident at the shop the other evening that is applicable here.

We had a customer come in with a newly built bike featuring a complete 2015 SR grouppo on a lovely Italian steel frame. And guess what problem he had? The FD would toss the chain and the crankset was really sloppy. The guy seemed pretty pissed off, he even mentioned this thread and said he felt so stupid buying the SR since it had a known design flaw.

We're running a 3 week backlog at the shop so we popped it on a stand to if this was something we could even fix. No point putting a bike in the backlog that we can't fix. Sure enough the front shifted like crap and the crank moved from side to side almost 2mm. First thing we noticed is the spring clip was missing. Installed that and the NDS bearing was almost out of the cup. Grabbed a caliper and measured the BB width. It was just over 68 mm. And the cups were marked "ITA" rather than "BSA". On closer inspection is was pretty clear that someone faced a 70mm BB down to 68mm.

We gave the bike back and told him to take it back to whoever built it as there was nothing we could do about it. Told him our suspicions and he didn't believe us, just that he had these defective Campagnolo parts on the bike. He got a little irate and said all these shops must work together to protect companies making defective parts because we gave him the exact same answer the Campagnolo ProShop down the street gave him.

There are some pretty clueless people out there assembling bikes to do something this extreme.


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## bikerjulio

A couple of 1 mm spacers behind the cups would have fixed it - no?


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## tka

bikerjulio said:


> A couple of 1 mm spacers behind the cups would have fixed it - no?


It certainly would have, but there are certain shop policies (read: liability insurance) that prevent us from doing that. We would have been happy to sell the guy a couple of spacers if he asked, but he was obviously unable to do the work himself. He told us he had been riding for 20 years but didn't know how to operate his brake QR. Both were open, he was complaining that the lever travel was so long.


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## gfk_velo

I wasn't going to reply to this thread *either* but in a moment of madness (well, 30 min or more, actually), I read the whole thread and seeing myself referenced, I now feel the need to comment ...

I have no way of knowing how many people that post here have to give technical instruction by phone or email but I can tell you this - the reason my posts are long and complicated when I am commenting on a technical issue is that you cannot - CANNOT - assume that the person or persons reading your post or email *know* anything. So you have to start from 1st principles and assume nothing.

I suspect that the mistake that Campag USA made was not down to a lack of product knowledge but simply down to assuming that the guy they had on the other end of the phone had RTFM and that the installation was in a BB that was to spec (and that this had been checked) and was correctly assembled.

Well, we all know what they say about assumption ... 

Other posters have commented on the absolute reliability of UT as a technology and although I have an obvious bias, I have to agree - in six years as the main Technical and Service Centre in the UK, I checked and we have answered just over 100 queries / complaints with regard to UT and PT. In 2 cases only have we had to conclude that there was something inherent in the riding style of the complainant that was causing noise (not even poor shift) from in one case a UT assembly, in another case a PT assembly. The cranks, cups and rings from that PT assembly are now, incidentally, on my TT bike and performing absolutely fine as they have been since the individual who owned them sent them to us in high dudgeon, declaring that he never wanted to see them again.

The remaining cases were all resolved by correct assembly of the parts into the frame or the fault was located in the frame, either in manufacture or in preparation. Missing spring clip was pretty high on the count (worst reason ever for not fitting it? "It looks ugly"), no facing on BB shell was also high on the list, failure to bond in press-fit adaptors likewise. Under-dimension BB cropped up a few times, over-dimension once. 

I completely agree that there probably are only a few guys out there that love their work enough to take great pains to get it right - but that is all there is to being good at this stuff. It's really not hard ... if you have the patience and the time to look after the detail, assume nothing - the big issues will automatically look after themselves ...


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## 1Butcher

Again, more wise information. 

It's not rocket science, it's just a bicycle. Attention to details [and basic reading of how to install the derailleur/BB/Crankset] can do wonders. A good QC helps too.


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## tka

tka said:


> I told myself that I wasn't going to fan this one any further but I had an incident at the shop the other evening that is applicable here.
> 
> We had a customer come in with a newly built bike featuring a complete 2015 SR grouppo on a lovely Italian steel frame. And guess what problem he had? The FD would toss the chain and the crankset was really sloppy. The guy seemed pretty pissed off, he even mentioned this thread and said he felt so stupid buying the SR since it had a known design flaw.
> 
> We're running a 3 week backlog at the shop so we popped it on a stand to if this was something we could even fix. No point putting a bike in the backlog that we can't fix. Sure enough the front shifted like crap and the crank moved from side to side almost 2mm. First thing we noticed is the spring clip was missing. Installed that and the NDS bearing was almost out of the cup. Grabbed a caliper and measured the BB width. It was just over 68 mm. And the cups were marked "ITA" rather than "BSA". On closer inspection is was pretty clear that someone faced a 70mm BB down to 68mm.
> 
> We gave the bike back and told him to take it back to whoever built it as there was nothing we could do about it. Told him our suspicions and he didn't believe us, just that he had these defective Campagnolo parts on the bike. He got a little irate and said all these shops must work together to protect companies making defective parts because we gave him the exact same answer the Campagnolo ProShop down the street gave him.
> 
> There are some pretty clueless people out there assembling bikes to do something this extreme.


Epilog on this bike. The guy came into the shop with the bike today, all the SR still in place working beautifully. He is very happy with the bike and SR now that it was working flawlessly. 

What happened? On his previous visit one of the other mechanics slipped him a business card with the name of someone that could help him. He took the bike to this mechanic, who installed 2 - 1mm spacers (just like bikerjulio said,) 1 behind each cup. She then adjusted the FD, and everything works flawlessly. 

We asked him about the "defective Campagnolo" parts and he laughed, said he got sucked in on this thread. Now it is set up properly he said it works every bit as well as his DA, Ultegra, and Di2 bikes. Another happy Campagnolo owner!


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## Pirx

tka said:


> Another happy Campagnolo owner!


Yes, the way it should be. It's really sad to see the disservice and the tremendous amount of damage that clueless mechanics can do, to their customers and the reputation of Campagnolo parts. The sad truth is, while a bad mechanic will be a bad mechanic with any brand component group, it does seem that Campagnolo equipment _can_ be adversely affected by idiocy, and perhaps more so than other brands. But perhaps it's just a matter of every mechanic having worked on Shimano for pretty much all of their career, and being helpless when having to deal with the minor differences required by Campagnolo equipment.

I'm just glad I don't have to rely on any LBS for any service. I'm not sure I would recommend Campagnolo equipment to someone who does. Yes, there are some decent shops for Campagnolo service, but not everyone has them in their neighborhood.


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## orange_julius

One key problem with bikes is that customers often have no clue at all, to the point where they can't cross-check what mechanics are telling them. This thread is a prime example of this. 

With Campa market share in the US below the critical threshold, a customer who wants to buy Campa may face insurmountable barriers. There are very few Campa-competent shops even in my area (Boston). If you lived in rural areas I imagine it is even much harder. 

At the same time, complete bike manufacturers market fewer and fewer Campa-built bikes in the US, so shop mechanics are pushed to riding non-Campa bikes themselves. Else they have to put up with Campa USA's pitiful "shop discount rate". 

The trend really ain't good for Campa in the US. Although my personal religious fervor is such that I shall remain faithful and in addition try to help my fellow faithful brothers and sisters in Campagnolo. Amen.


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## Donn12

the guys at my LBS have said that shimano is so dirt cheap to them that they can't afford to build up a bike with campy in most cases. I may be able to buy stuff from ribble cheaper than they can from the distributor...maybe it adds to the mystique but unless something changes they will have zero presence in the US


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## 1Butcher

Campagnolo is not made for everyone and I feel that is a good thing. They have a niche and that is what they are good at.

There are many companies out there that have the same philosophy, Ferrari, Porsche, etc. There are companies that have moved out of that niche market that used their name and past reputation to sell more stuff. That new stuff is usually not nearly as well as it used to be. 

I surely would not want Campagnolo to start making cheap junk. Selling more to satisfy a larger bottom line does not always work.


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## orange_julius

1Butcher said:


> Campagnolo is not made for everyone and I feel that is a good thing. They have a niche and that is what they are good at.
> 
> There are many companies out there that have the same philosophy, Ferrari, Porsche, etc. There are companies that have moved out of that niche market that used their name and past reputation to sell more stuff. That new stuff is usually not nearly as well as it used to be.
> 
> I surely would not want Campagnolo to start making cheap junk. Selling more to satisfy a larger bottom line does not always work.


I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree that this is necessarily a good thing. Ferrari prices are ridiculous. Porsche is much more reasonable and in many cases reliable, because they share technology development with the VW group, which as you know is much larger in terms of volume. A lot of the tech and platforms are shared: Cayenne with Q7, etc. 

We may never know the Campagnolo corporate strategy, but it could be that they really target the very top end as a profit-winner. Whereas at the low end it's a matter of having revenue to justify manufacturing investments, and some technology. In the 10sp days, the trickly-down is clearly justified. Today with 11sp UT vs. PT I have no idea what the strategy is. Or if they have any strategy. 

Now I owe St. Tullio Campagnolo 25 prayers of "Ave Eddy" for having such heretical doubt in my faith.


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## tka

Donn12 said:


> the guys at my LBS have said that shimano is so dirt cheap to them that they can't afford to build up a bike with campy in most cases. I may be able to buy stuff from ribble cheaper than they can from the distributor...maybe it adds to the mystique but unless something changes they will have zero presence in the US


With the current strength of the USD you can definitely buy Campag from Ribble cheaper than you can from the distributor. When I built up my Ritchey Road Logic this winter all the Campag (except the skeleton brakes, which I had a couple of sets) came from Ribble since they were about 15% cheaper than what QBP had the parts for. Even some of the Ritchey parts were cheaper from Ribble. Amazing what MSRP policies do to prices throughout the distribution chain.


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## ultimobici

You do realise Ribble are a wholesaler. Their retail prices are heavily discounted from the European rrp.


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## bikerjulio

ultimobici said:


> You do realise Ribble are a wholesaler. Their retail prices are heavily discounted from the European rrp.


Since maintenance of retail pricing by manufacturers or distributors is illegal in the UK and Europe the term "RRP" is pretty meaningless, if it is even allowed at all.

These jurisdictions have specific laws banning the practice. In the US it seems less clear to me, though all I know is from reading Wiki on the subject, which seems to say that the Sherman Act of 1890 is what current case law is based on.


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