# Equalizing spoke tensions - guitar style.



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

A few months ago I mentioned something about trying my guitar tuner (that senses vibration) as a tool for my next wheel build in determining relative spoke tension. When I announced my own personal wheelset, RBR poster Chinaman reminded me to test the guitar tuner.

Anyway, due to a few delays, I assembled the front wheel just yesterday and tensioned/trued it today. I don't own a "tensiometer" and use perceived tension for my judgement of overall tension and the pluck/ping tone method of assessing relative tension. As a (cough) guitar player (slight exaggeration there!) I'm quite familiar with tension versus tone. Here's where I wondered if the guitar tuner would work.

I like to get a sense of overall tension from known good wheels (any wheel that stays in true for a number of years and doesn't crack rims or break spokes is a good wheel) so I checked my overall tension against one of my other wheels that has the same rim, spokes and crosses. My ear could tell from the tone of the two wheels that I was a touch lower on my new wheel. I clamped the guitar tuner to the stand and plucked a few spokes on the known good wheel. I got notes of B & C. Any musician knows that the gap from B to C is a semi-tone (1/2 a tone, there is no B# or Cflat). It was quite obvious (before even looking at the tuner) which the low tension spokes were. I must add that it's impossible to get a true wheel that has absolutely even tensioned spokes.

I then put my new wheel into the stand and got readings of A# and B. So I was a 1/2 to 1 tone down from the known good wheel.

The guitar tuner has a swinging needle and if a person was very picky they could get the tones dead-on to a tiny fraction of a semi-tone but then they would have a wheel out of true (no rims and spokes are dead perfect).

Having never used a "real" tensiometer I could imagine that this guitar tuner method is much more accurate and FAR faster to use - heck, clamp it to the stand once and it's good for the whole tension equalizing operation. With a "real" tensiometer you'd have to pick it up a zillion times.

Sure, the guitar tuner won't tell you whether you have sufficient tension or specified tension but there are lots of us that know there is a big acceptable range here (NDS to DS tension variations tell us this). Comparing to a known good wheel or perceived tension has always been sufficient for me over many decades.

One of these tuners can be had for under $10. Give one a try and I think you will be very surprised. I won't use it again though as it proved to me that I can easily hear a tone variation of less than a semi-tone and I think after a few minutes experimenting and with confirmation from the tuner, you could too.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

In my experience, the pitch method is has greater resolution of spoke tension difference than tension meter. That is you can hear a difference that won't show on a the tension meter. I use the tension meter on a number of spokes to check that I'm up to specified tension if there is one, or an otherwise appropriate tension. Then true the wheel. I go around and listen for adjacent spokes on the each side of the wheel and then go about equalizing them while maintain wheel trueness. It gets a bit tricky, but there's a method, if not a justifiable reason, to this madness. 

(technically speaking, a tension meter is not a tensiometer: Tension meter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Pitch is excellent for relative, but do not reference another wheel unless the spokes are the same length (factor in the crossing) and gauge. Two different wheel builds with the same tension will can have a very different pitch.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Interesting read
Spoke tone when plucked (Jobst Brandt)


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

That's pretty cool.



> Any musician knows that the gap from B to C is a semi-tone (1/2 a tone, there is no B# or C flat).


This is only true, of course, if you use the equal-tempered scale that we in the West have all been brainwashed into accepting since the time of Bach. Any physicist (or a violinist with with a really good ear) will tell you B# is not the same note as C.

(JK about the brainwashing


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

JCavilia said:


> This is only true, of course, if you use the equal-tempered scale that we in the West have all been brainwashed into accepting since the time of Bach. Any physicist (or a violinist with with a really good ear) will tell you B# is not the same note as C.
> (JK about the brainwashing


Any strummer of chords (me) doesn't give a rat's backside about the scientific side of music theory. I'm sure musicians from India or Pakistan wouldn't agree with any of us in the west anyway. Yeah I read all that theory years ago and my eyes glazed over and I had to go for a bike ride.

I just played the chords of B# and C back & forth a few times and AFAIC it's close enough for me to be the same note. And my wheels tuned to B# or C will last just as long too. I'll guarantee it.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> strummer of chords


That's me, too. But I find the theory interesting.

On the piano (thank Bach), or the guitar with its fretted fingerboard, they are the same note, of course.

My daughter had a choir director in college who could hear a difference of a tenth of a semitone. She'd wade into the middle of a section while the choir was humming a chord and find one singer who was flat, by an amount nobody else could even detect. 
It was freaky, but real.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Wheelsmith, a company specializing in prebuilt quality wheels in the 1980's, advertised that it was more important to have even spoke tension than a true wheel, so they were slightly more flexible with those specs versus even spoke tension on their wheels.

To make your frequency method more accurate, you would have to document the tones of various wheels you have/build and observe and variation between spokes in a true wheel. After several wheels you'll notice a pattern so you'll know how much deviation is acceptable while still retaining a true wheel.

I see nothing wrong with using your guitar tuner vs. a tensionmeter.


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

This is how the spoke tensioner iPhone app works: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id518870820?mt=8


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> One of these tuners can be had for under $10.


I want one. Any recommendations on a model that would work best for wheels?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rruff said:


> I want one. Any recommendations on a model that would work best for wheels?


I'm only an expert of 1 Ron so I can't really advise. I think all the clamp-on ones work the same way ~ they all pick up vibrations. Mine was $20 but up here in Canada most things are (too) expensive. I saw ones similar on e-bay for under $10. Go along to a guitar shop and have them demo one and think "wheel stand and vibrating spoke" when they demo guitar and vibrating string. They really are interesting in wheelbuilding for relative tensions.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

rruff said:


> I want one. Any recommendations on a model that would work best for wheels?


You are seriously considering buying a guitar tuner for the sake of checking spoke tension?!?! I mean, it's a fun novelty idea if you have a guitar tuner laying around already... but to spend good money on one? It's your money...


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

You could get really creative. Tune every spoke to an individual note. Attach a zip tie to your frame to "pluck" the spokes. Then when you ride, your bike will play a tune. 
Kinda like a music box.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

headloss said:


> You are seriously considering buying a guitar tuner for the sake of checking spoke tension?!?! I mean, it's a fun novelty idea if you have a guitar tuner laying around already... but to spend good money on one? It's your money...


Can Ron drop by to see if he can find anything at your place that he thinks you wasted your money on?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tlg said:


> You could get really creative. Tune every spoke to an individual note. Attach a zip tie to your frame to "pluck" the spokes. Then when you ride, your bike will play a tune.
> Kinda like a music box.


I'd like to tension a wheel so I could play the intro to "Stairway" on it. I think the intro has 22 notes so I'd be ok with a 24 spoke wheel.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I think there could be cases where even pitch doesn't necessarily mean even tension.
Variations in spokes, rims, spoke crossings could all have an effect. I think I have noticed a difference in pitch due to the rim joint. Of course a tensiometer may not help with this either. Also if the pitch is fairly even as opposed to way off you know you are in the ballpark anyway. I also play guitar, learning jazz and playing a lot of scales, i think my ear may be good enough. If you have an Ipad or Iphone there are a lot of tuner apps. the best one I have found is called Piano Tuner.


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## pepelkod (May 26, 2012)

jnbrown said:


> If you have an Ipad or Iphone there are a lot of tuner apps.


How about something designed for the job. 

iPhone Spoke Tensioner.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id518870820?mt=8


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## Flieger67 (Oct 26, 2013)

JCavilia said:


> That's pretty cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From a music theory standpoint, B# and C flat do exist in Western music. The chord A7#9 contains a B#. The natural "9" of that chord is a B natural; thus, the #9 is B#. Similarly, the flatted fifth in F major is C flat and not B natural. 

Sorry for the thread hijack.


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## Bog (Feb 2, 2005)

I rode over some glass and got A Flat!! (sorry)


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Bog said:


> I rode over some glass and got A Flat!! (sorry)


That's not very sharp, is it?


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## jjcools (Jun 28, 2011)

pepelkod said:


> How about something designed for the job.
> 
> iPhone Spoke Tensioner.
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id518870820?mt=8


That is actually a pretty smart idea. I might test that on my wheels.


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