# Sram Force vs Red



## Bonecracker (Jul 22, 2009)

Putting together an new Lensky frame and was considering a Sram groupo! I only ride to stay in shape and the pure pleasure of bike riding. So no racing for this old man!! I occasionally do longer rides but limit my weekly rides to around 25/30miles 3 times a week. Was looking a Sram groupos and wanted to know your opion and if it was worth the $$$ of the Red groupo vs Force groupo? 

Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## Daren (Jul 25, 2008)

No,its not worth it. They are almost the same, but Red is lighter. the '09 groups varied in the only the Red shifters had the zero loss feature, but now that has been passed down to the Force as well. I know of several people that have Red groups but Force FDs because it is stiffer and shifts better.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Red also has Zero Loss in the rear shifting...the others do not.

If your not going to miss the money why not ...go Red!


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## brandtw (May 27, 2010)

I went Force and really like it. Fitness rider here too, no racing, the Force group is very nice, clean, functions well and is big bang for the buck IMHO.


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

Here is my combo - Force group set - PC1090 chain, PG1070 cassette, FSA Gossamer crank - soon to be replaced with probably an Ultegra or Fulcrum.

But here are some suggestions as the biggest differences is weight and the rear Red shifter has Zero loss (I can't tell the difference)

Money no object 

Red Shifters, Red Crank, Red Rear Derailleur, Force Front Derailleur, Ultegra cassette & Ultegra chain

Mid Range

Force Shifters, Red Crank, Force Rear Derailleur, Force FD, Ultegra Cassette & chain

Bottom Range

Complete Force groupset - shifters, crank, FD & RD, Ultegra Cassette & Chain.


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## Amfoto1 (Feb 16, 2010)

All three of Sram's top groups are excellent and very similar (Rival, Force, Red). 

You can save a bit of weight going to the more expensive group, but not a whole lot.

As of 2010 all three use carbon fiber brake/shift levers (and are 100+ grams lighter than comparable Shimano). The weight difference between the Sram levers is in the 10s of grams per piece... not much. 2010 Rival have a matte clear finish on them that might be harder to touch up. I think both Red and Force are gloss finish, which touches up very easily (in the traditional way... with clear finger nail polish  ). Purely cosmetic consideration, of course, but levers always seem to get scratched a bit in use. 

The Sram brake calipers in these three groups differ in finish, primarily. Rival are black painted or anodized and about 10 grams heavier per caliper. Both Red and Force are polished and clear coated, with Red slightly lighter still thanks to some Ti parts. I think the Force finish looks a little warmer (I'd call it "Ti-like"), while the Red might be a little cooler ("chrome like" or bluish). 

Some folks prefer the modulation and clamping power of Shimano brakes over Sram. Personally I find them very similar, but I swap out the brake pads for Kool Stops in either case (Ultegra brake pads in particular used to really suck... I hear they are much improved for 2010 but haven't used them). One small thing.... All three Sram and all three Shimano (DA, Ultegra, 105) have click stops on the release lever that opens the caliper to remove the wheel. Some third party brakes don't (for example Tektro, as well as Cannondale or others made by Tektro). It seems a really minor thing, but personally I prefer the click stops. 

Some of it comes down to aesthetics. For example I chose to use mostly Rival group (2010) on one bike because of it's predominently black finish... I just think it looks best on that particular frame.

The crankset is the biggest area of potential weight savings and the lightest one, the Red, is also the stiffest of the three Srams. The Rival is the heaviest of the three Sram cranks because it's aluminum while the other two are carbon fiber. So if there is one place to upgrade, it might be the crank. If stiffness is important, go with the Red. If not, go with the Force. There's not much difference in weight between these two. 

Red uses more titanium hardware and parts to cut weight. The front der is one place this might not work out too well. Some folks like the Force better on otherwise Red equipped bikes, because they feel the shifting with the Force FD is more certain... Perhaps because the Ti cage of the Red is a little flexier. 

The Rival rear der uses an aluminum cage and body. The Force and Red have some carbon fiber parts on the cage to lower weight.

Folks do have preferences about the chains and cassettes. I've been using several Sram cassettes (1070, which are shared by Force and Red) along with their chains (1090R, which are Red-level) and am happy with them. I have a Sram cassette/chain set on an otherwise Ultegra (6600) equipped bike, and it works just fine and runs quietly. But, Shimano 105/Ultegra cassettes and chains work fine, too. 

Some say that the Sram cassettes and chains are noisier than Shimano. With all adjustments dialed in and good chain lubrication, I don't notice any real difference. 

Some Sram chain users prefer to use a joining link such as the KMC, rather than the provided Sram Powerlink (which _technically_ is designed for single use). But some prefer the reusable links on Shimano chains, too, rather than Shimano's pin replacement method. 

I've been tempted at times with the low, low weight of the Shimano Dura Ace cassette... But that's achieved by using a cluster of titanium cogs, which means it costs a lot more and wears out a lot faster. So it's probably not the best choice for a recreational rider or commuter. Sram's Red level (1090) cassette is also very light weight... I don't know if that's also thanks to the use of a lot of Ti though. 

If anything, the three Sram groups are a little less forgiving than Shimano counterparts when setting up and adjusting. For example, I think the Shimano rear ders are more forgiving of slight misadjustment. All three of the Sram front ders need to be carefully aligned and positioned, per the instructions, and the cable tension in particular needs to be just right. One suggestion... To facilitate proper front cable tension install an inline cable adjuster on at least that FD cable (like most, the RD has a barrel adjuster, so an add'l inline adjuster is more optional). 

Assuming you are using the now common external bearing cup type bottom bracket, be aware that the Sram crank's spindle and bearings are not cross-compatible with Shimano and most other cranks/BBs. Sram uses two different size bearings and the diameter of the spindle is slightly smaller on the non-drive size... Most others use the same size on both sides and a spindle that's the same diameter at both ends. Just looking at them side by side, they appear the same... But they're not. (If your bike happens to use BB30, this is not a consideration... Unless you're using an adapter to fit up an external bearing-type crank.)

I don't have any experience with Sram's newly introduced 4th tier group: Apex. So I haven't mentioned it much here. It's gotten a lot of good reviews, from what I've seen. I guess Apex (10 speed) is positioned to compete with Shimano Tiagra (still 9 speed, I think). AFAIK, Apex uses aluminum brake levers and an aluminum crank. 

I recently compiled the manufacturer's claimed weights of Shimano and Sram 2010 groups, all with a standard double crankset (53/39) and a common cassette (11-23T). (A compact 50/34 crank with a matched, shorter chain should save a wee bit more). Here's what I found:

Sram Red group: 1940 gr.
Shimano Dura Ace group: 2045 gr.
Sram Force group: 2107 gr.
Sram Rival group: 2200 gr.
Shimano Ultegra group: 2313 gr.
Sram Apex group: 2358 gr.
Shimano 105 group: 2545 gr.
Shimano Tiagra group (9 speed): N/A (Shimano doesn't publish some component weights)

I do take all these claimed weights with a grain of salt. Most manufacturers note that their published weights are "averages" or otherwise disclaim them a little. I recently weighed a "180 gram" labelled Fizik saddle and found it's actually 235 grams! Sometime when I have nothing better to do, maybe I'll weigh more of these components myself and see how accurate some of the claims really are.... Or maybe I won't  

The two primary places significant weight is saved are in the cranksets and the shift/brake levers. Note: some have made it work, but generally you shouldn't mix Sram shifters with Shimano deralleurs, and vice versa. OTOH, as noted earlier, Sram chains, cassettes, and chainrings seem to work just fine with Shimano... and vice versa.

One thing I'd suggest if at all possible, check out the different groups (Sram vs Shimano vs Campy) on bikes in a store. Across the Sram groups, they're very similar. But Sram vs Shimano (for example), they feel a little differently ergonomically, with different shape hoods, etc. Some prefer one over the other. They also shift a little differently... Sram uses one lever for both up and down shifting, and tends to be "crisper" or "snappier", for lack of a better term to describe it. Not saying better or worse ... Just _different_ and some folks prefer one over the other.

I'm currently riding:

1. Ultegra (6600) equipped bike (with Sram Force/Rival 1070 chainrings and cassette, 1090R chain)
2. Rival equipped bike (except for Red crankset and 1090R chain)
3. And am gradually building up a Force (2009) equipped bike.


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## cww180 (Aug 31, 2008)

I did weigh each piece of my SRAM Red as I was installing it and it totalled 1954. I believe I have the 2009 edition.


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## df58181 (Jan 29, 2008)

This is the most thorough and unbiased conversation I've encountered. Good stuff. Thanks.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I have Force and Red. Very little if any perceptible difference in shifting. As mentioned, what you get with Red is principally less weight and more cachet. Only you can decide what that's worth to you. If you do go for Red, I recommend trying to get a FD with steel cage. I've replaced my Red Ti cage FD with a Force, but Red steel cage FDs are now available.


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## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

looigi said:


> I have Force and Red. Very little if any perceptible difference in shifting. As mentioned, what you get with Red is principally less weight and more cachet. Only you can decide what that's worth to you. If you do go for Red, I recommend trying to get a FD with steel cage. I've replaced my Red Ti cage FD with a Force, but Red steel cage FDs are now available.


No difference between Red and Force shifting? Everyone on this forum seems to brag about the big difference in the zero loss gained by the Red right hand shifter. I'm running Apex shifters and tried some Force shifters, but couldn't notice any difference. However, I haven't had a chance to try Red. My setup is running perfect and well adjusted, so perhaps there might be a small difference in the Force shifting, but I noticed nothing


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I can certainly tell the difference between the Force on my CX bike, the Rival on my wife's bikes and the Red on my Look.

The rear shifting difference is perceptible to say the least.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> I can certainly tell the difference between the Force on my CX bike, the Rival on my wife's bikes and the Red on my Look.
> 
> The rear shifting difference is perceptible to say the least.


How? Are you saying that if I swapped a Rival RD onto your Force bike you'd be able to tell?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> How? Are you saying that if I swapped a Rival onto your Force bike you'd be able to tell?


Yes I most certainly would.

I have the first generation Force levers on my CX bike.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Yes I most certainly would.
> 
> I have the first generation Force levers on my CX bike.


So, it doesn't shift from cog to cog, and on Force it does? One misses shifts the other makes? 

How do you know it isn't the difference in cable routing between the bikes?


I'm sorry to be a little incredulous, but we are talking about two identically designed index rear derailleurs. They usually either work, or don't. Shifters and FDs I would understand, but I can't think of what quality an accurately shifting Rival derailleur would be missing.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

new2rd said:


> No difference between Red and Force shifting? Everyone on this forum seems to brag about the big difference in the zero loss gained by the Red right hand shifter. I'm running Apex shifters and tried some Force shifters, but couldn't notice any difference. However, I haven't had a chance to try Red. My setup is running perfect and well adjusted, so perhaps there might be a small difference in the Force shifting, but I noticed nothing


In other words, if I ever decide to uprgade my bike (full Force groupset) best bet for my money is to buy a Red right shifter... only problem I can think of with that is having mismatched shifters might make me look like a cheap bastard with no style, which would actually be _worse_ than just sticking with Force... what a conundrum


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> So, it doesn't shift from cog to cog, and on Force it does? One misses shifts the other makes?
> 
> How do you know it isn't the difference in cable routing between the bikes?
> 
> ...


Because I had the old Force on my Look prior to upgrading to Red.

You can be incredulous all you want; there is a substantial difference between the shifting feel of Red, Rival and (old) Force. I can't comment on the redesigned 2nd gen Force groups. 

And FTR I'm talking about shifters, as were many other people. You're the only one who went on about derailleurs, and you know damn well feel comes from the shifters, not the derailleurs.

Nice try with the post edit, keep trolling sucker.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Because I had the old Force on my Look prior to upgrading to Red.
> 
> You can be incredulous all you want; there is a substantial difference between the shifting feel of Red, Rival and (old) Force. I can't comment on the redesigned 2nd gen Force groups.
> 
> ...


It appears that you have been on this forum for awhile, so you know that any edit made after another response is posted has an edit record at the bottom. I corrected and clarified my post before you posted your response, obviously.

I asked the question because you said "shifting", not "lever feel", implying that your Rival didn't actually _shift_ like your Force. Shifting, FYI, is when the chain moves from one cog to another.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> It appears that you have been on this forum for awhile, so you know that any edit made after another response is posted has an edit record at the bottom. I corrected and clarified my post before you posted your response, obviously.
> 
> I asked the question because you said "shifting", not "lever feel", implying that your Rival didn't actually _shift_ like your Force. Shifting, FYI, is when the chain moves from one cog to another.


Apparently you don't know that "edited" notes only appear after a short time window or after another post is submitted, but then again, you've never been one to pay much attention to anything other than your own trolling. If you edited within a few short minutes (which you obviously did) it won't appear as a note, especially as I was crafting a response while you were editing your post. 

On topic:

Shifting implies feel of lever and derailleur; they work as a system. You know as well as anyone that a derailleur doesn't shift without input from a shifter. You're the only one trying to start a fight by arguing the differences. 

Again, there is a significant difference between them. And frankly, if you can't tell the difference between them, you're a pretty crappy mechanic.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Apparently you don't know that "edited" notes only appear after a short time window or after another post is submitted, but then again, you've never been one to pay much attention to anything other than your own trolling. If you edited within a few short minutes (which you obviously did) it won't appear as a note, especially as I was crafting a response while you were editing your post.
> 
> On topic:
> 
> ...


Dude, I edited my post, and said I did. You implied that I did it to make you look dumb, but I would not want to help you with that. I was attempting to ask you a straightforward and polite question about shifting accuracy, which is why I immediately edited my post before you or anyone else responded to keep it on point.

I have no idea why you are so continuously insulting.


Of course Rival, Force and Red feel different. But if you push any one of them until they click, the RD will shift to the next cog. That has nothing to do with how the lever feels, how soft the hood is or if the lever is aluminum or magnesium. That's why it is called indexing.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> Dude, I edited my post, and said I did. You implied that I did it to make you look dumb, but I would not want to help you with that. I was attempting to ask you a straightforward and polite question about shifting accuracy, which is why I immediately edited my post before you or anyone else responded to keep it on point.
> 
> I have no idea why you are so continuously insulting.
> 
> ...


And you continue trying to start an argument just to attempt to cover your tracks and try to cover your failure? Fantastic, but not quite effective enough. "Shifting" always has been a generic term describing the activation of a derailleur by a shifter. The "difference" between one system and the next applies to the levers and derailleurs, and you very well know that. 

You're simply attempting to change the definition to suit your own misguided needs. Good luck with that. I will not argue with a troll, since all they do is try to drag you down to their level and beat you with experience, and you're far too experienced a troll to bother with.

Go back to your fantasy world where you're king of the castle, play the martyr on the internet, throw some steak on the floor, whatever it takes to make you feel like a man. The bottom line is you tried to nitpick to prove a point, and you failed. Thanks for playing, troll.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> And you continue trying to start an argument just to attempt to cover your tracks and try to cover your failure? Fantastic, but not quite effective enough. "Shifting" always has been a generic term describing the activation of a derailleur by a shifter. The "difference" between one system and the next applies to the levers and derailleurs, and you very well know that.
> 
> You're simply attempting to change the definition to suit your own misguided needs. Good luck with that. I will not argue with a troll, since all they do is try to drag you down to their level and beat you with experience, and you're far too experienced a troll to bother with.
> 
> Go back to your fantasy world where you're king of the castle, play the martyr on the internet, throw some steak on the floor, whatever it takes to make you feel like a man. The bottom line is you tried to nitpick to prove a point, and you failed. Thanks for playing, troll.


Do you own a mirror? I have never, on any forum, seen anyone who's ego is so wrapped up in attempting to trash as many people as possible. 

This would be the point when you give me negative rep for the FIFTH time, even though only two other people have ever given me a neg...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Ain't nothin' better:



> This message is hidden because Kontact is on your ignore list.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Ain't nothin' better:


Thank God!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Hmm, what? Rustling under the bridge?



> This message is hidden because Kontact is on your ignore list.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Dude is rob and dude is Kontact... You both about the same in my book..

The top 3 groups are close, but Red will edge out. By how much? A wee bit is the easiest answer. is it worth the extra dough? Not to me. I got a great deal on 2010 Force and love it, but it is not perfect. The Red that I rode for a bit seemed slightly better but only under extreme conditions. Neither miss hit and only the Force has on occasions hesitated or stuttered when shifting..

By comparison, Ultegra shifted smooth everywhere even when it missed...


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## cycocross (Dec 11, 2011)

df58181 said:


> This is the most thorough and unbiased conversation I've encountered. Good stuff. Thanks.


yes. yes it was.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I said I have both Force and Red and the difference is imperceptible. Perhaps inconsequential would have been a better choice of words. I also have two road bikes with Shimano and easily go back and forth between SRAM and Shimano, where there is a much bigger difference, but still not very consequential. Although I prefer the double-tap actuation, I still shift fine with Shimano. Sheesh, reading some of the posters here reminds me of the Princess and the Pea.


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## ron.corleone (Nov 3, 2010)

we all live in a yellow submarine... a yellow submarine


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## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

Threads like this make me laugh. Some people get very hurt and bothered over some stranger not agreeing with them. 
As with most upgrades, I wonder how many people defend their current component choice because they spent $500 and don't want to admit that there was barely any difference. I really appreciate the "honest" person that isn't afraid to say "ya know what, I like the upgraded part that I bought, but in a blind test I probably wouldn't be able to tell any difference".


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## GDTRFB (Feb 12, 2011)

I have Red shifters & the rest force. I really like the Red shifters (~$100 more that Force), and I'm happy with the rest of the group EXCEPT for the FD. After endless problems with rough shifts & drops, I put on an Ultegra 6600 FD. Since then, all has been well. The Force brakes (with SwissStop pads) are great. Rear shifting is quick & accurate.
I love the ergonomics of the Sram shifters & double tap, and the weight savings of Force over Ultegra, but my wife's 6600 bike shifts much more smoothly than mine.
My next bike will either have 2013 Red, DA or Ultegra. No electronic shifting for me.


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## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

Red definitely makes an easily noticable difference in feel for the rear shifter. Force and Rival do not feel anywhere near the same other then having the same motions IMHO. With Red, you have that pronounced click feel. Force and Rival do not. I'm not saying trying to say that Red is just better by default but in terms of feel, to me at least, it is easily superior. But despite all this, get what your wallet can handle. If you can dish out extra for Red, go for it. If you want to do things on a limited budget, go Rival.


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## RC28 (May 9, 2002)

I've had 1st gen Force, newer Force , Rival and Apex and 09ish Red either on my personal bikes or on bikes that I've used for a couple hundred kms.

My impressions:
1st gen Force shifts feel worse relative to the other ones ( I absolutely hate to have to agree with Rob on anything but it is what it is)
Newer Force, Rival and Apex- absolutely no difference in feel between them for rear OR front shift feel.
Red - quicker , more solid feeling shifts.

Take this with whatever amount of salt you like.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Red front derailleur shifting sucks big time, I mean BIG TIME. I know of at least 2 people in my club with Red and they both have the exact same shoddy FD shifting issue with Red. Often time it's when the go from small ring to big ring, and it seems to happen to them at the most inopportune time! like after climbing a hill they're getting ready to descend down, everyone takes off, and they're getting stuck behind thanks to their FD.

But that's not all, on a few occasions, the chain would dropped to the inside (as it failed to jump to the big ring yet the rider kept on pedalling because he couldn't stop in time) and drop right on the expensive carbon frame. Ouch!


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

I've had the same 2007 Rival group for three years, and I work on current Rival, Force and Red all the time at work. Honestly, I really like my first gen Rival shifting. Maybe if I had started with something else and Zero Loss I would find Rival sloppy or whatever, but I am completely satisfied with my stuff.

Not to ding Red at all, but sometimes in the stand I find that Red shifters make it very difficult to shift from the highest to second highest cog (11 to 12) - it's hard to feel that first click and push right over it for a double shift (11 to 13).

I find SRAM rear shifting to be the least problematic of the big three, especially with internal routing. Their RDs seem to have the strongest return springs.


The titanium Red FD is poor, but the new steel one is a rebadged Force with Ti hardware and works well. Shimano FDs also work really well with SRAM shifters, if you don't mind a mismatch.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Pete2 said:


> I have Red shifters & the rest force. I really like the Red shifters (~$100 more that Force), and I'm happy with the rest of the group EXCEPT for the FD. After endless problems with rough shifts & drops, I put on an Ultegra 6600 FD. Since then, all has been well. The Force brakes (with SwissStop pads) are great. Rear shifting is quick & accurate.
> I love the ergonomics of the Sram shifters & double tap, and the weight savings of Force over Ultegra, but my wife's 6600 bike shifts much more smoothly than mine.
> MY next bike will either have 2013 Red, DA or Ultegra. No electronic shifting for me.


I picked up FD-7800 to replace my force FD as well, tired of the occasional but inevitable chain drop.. Shimano spring is not under as high tension as the SRAM and it shifts like butter. With shimano FD I never have to think before shifting or mess with it..


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## anthro88 (May 17, 2010)

how to tell the difference between the different years of sram rival or force? is there a number like shimano has? thanks.


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