# Can someone explain why Sastre attacked?



## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

Why'd he attack Schleck? Can someone explain these tactics?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

cheddarlove said:


> Why'd he attack Schleck? Can someone explain these tactics?


To win the stage, to win the Tour.

He's earned the green light to do whatever the heck his body can do today.

fc


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

My guess...as close as Sastre and Schleck are in the standings they are both given the green light to go for it. Better to have two at the top than 1.

Also it could be a matter of sending Sastre up the road in case Schleck can drop the rest of the riders around him so he has a teamate up the road and they can work together to finish the climb.

Then there is the fact that CSC would not only like to have the Yellow and White jersey's but also a win on the biggest stage of the year. This is a stage guys like Sastre live for and if he has the legs to win it...why not let him go? It would make for a "Huge" day for CSC if he wins the stage, takes yellow and CSC has #1, #2 overall GC and the White jersey and overall Team Classification in the race.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

francois said:


> To win the stage, to win the Tour.
> 
> He's earned the green light to do whatever the heck his body can do today.
> 
> fc


Thanks. I thought you weren't supposed to attack your team mates. Do you thinkthey are saying it's Satre's turn to win and Schleck can get it next year?


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Sastre is the best ITTist among him and Schlecks -- he gives CSC best chance to take yellow. Smart strategy.

Below are the 2007 final ITT results . . . look how Sastre fared -- 2 and a half minutes behind Evans. He is about 50 seconds behind Evans now on GC. So he needs to take at least 2 and a half minutes out of Evans today to have a chance to win it all. Possible!

*******************************************************************

1 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 1.02.44 
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor - Lotto 0.51
16 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC 3.24
36 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC 5.18


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

cheddarlove said:


> Why'd he attack Schleck? Can someone explain these tactics?


Because Sastre has been the plan at CSC all along.

Schleck has worn the jersey and kept attention off Sastre who has been the real danger all along.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

+1



fornaca68 said:


> Sastre is the best ITTist among him and Schlecks -- he gives CSC best chance to take yellow. Smart strategy.


but it is a gutsy move to take yellow from one member. maybe F schleck is feeling pretty wasted. CSC played the cards well. there were so many ways for this stage to play out, it was difficult for teams to respond. if they could have covered the attack it might have played out differently.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

weltyed said:


> +1
> 
> 
> 
> but it is a gutsy move to take yellow from one member. maybe F schleck is feeling pretty wasted. CSC played the cards well. there were so many ways for this stage to play out, it was difficult for teams to respond. if they could have covered the attack it might have played out differently.


It's Sastre vs. Evans on Saturday.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

WOW!! Cadel blew that one!! Or did he have no choice?
And thanks for the input. I was certainly not getting it!


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Sastre attacked because he is the main leader for CSC. Frank is just a teammate who happened to be in yellow. Andy is a super domestique and for sure, a future grand tour winner I believe. 

Sastre was CSC's goal all along. I wonder if Frank didn't attack coz he couldn't perhaps.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

*A Buck Forty*

2:11 Sastre over Evans subtract about 50 seconds in favor of Evans, Sastre has a one minute and forty seconds of handicap on the ITT. He also has the advantage of going last after Evans and has the advantage of the time checks. Sastre will be motivated no doubt. 

Given the 2007 final ITT result, Evans should win, but you never know.

It's too bad the Tour keeps throwing in these 50+ km ITTs that give the power riders like Armstrong, Evans, etc. 3, 4, 5 minutes in one day over the climbers. Imagine if Saturday's final ITT was a Giro- or Vuelta-esque 30 km -- it would be damn close between Evans and Sastre.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

im not sure if he could follow that move.

plus, he could pull off a better TT than sastre. especially if sastre cant recover from today.

i imagine fabian will take the final ITT, but that depends on who sastre wants to use a time marker. fabian has been working very well for the team. i think they would let him try to take at least one stage. 

now csc just needs to watch evans and keep sastre upright.

would have been great if VdV could have made the leap with sastre.



cheddarlove said:


> WOW!! Cadel blew that one!! Or did he have no choice?
> And thanks for the input. I was certainly not getting it!


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

fornaca68 said:


> 2:11 Sastre over Evans subtract about 50 seconds in favor of Evans, Sastre has a one minute and forty seconds of handicap on the ITT. He also has the advantage of going last after Evans and has the advantage of the time checks. Sastre will be motivated no doubt.
> 
> Given the 2007 final ITT result, Evans should win, but you never know.
> 
> It's too bad the Tour keeps throwing in these 50+ km ITTs that give the power riders like Armstrong, Evans, etc. 3, 4, 5 minutes in one day over the climbers. Imagine if Saturday's final ITT was a Giro- or Vuelta-esque 30 km -- it would be damn close between Evans and Sastre.


Yeah but Armstrong didn't really need a final ITT anyway in most cases. Usually. 

This is why a pure climber can almost never win the Tour (without doping from the winner and hence, handing him the overall after a year) 

A great climber and decent TT rider can do this - Alberto Contador, erm, Schleck (Andy) if he improves his TT and Sastre perhaps as well.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Smart strategy by Saxo Bank - but the real question is why Sastre didn't attack in the last col - he could have put some major padding between Evans and himself -- as it is, he will no doubt come up short in the TT. Also, in response to the OP, putting Sastre up front meant that Kohl and Evans had to work to bridge up and expose themselves to a counter by Schleck the elder. Good on Evans for not falling for that bait.


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

its the classic one two punch, if they pull back sastre then schleck attacks and it continuies untill they crack the better tt riders


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

cheddarlove said:


> Thanks. I thought you weren't supposed to attack your team mates. Do you thinkthey are saying it's Satre's turn to win and Schleck can get it next year?


There is no turn......They(the team) are trying to win, regardless of who it is... and to do that they needed to blow-up Evans(the stongest TT)... so with Sastre off the front then they made Evans close the gap and work more, they would have like to have seen him go off the back, but that didn't happen... 

A great victory for Sastre, but I don't think it was enough to hold off Evans.. but should be a fun TT to watch on Saturday... and there are two more stages before that and with it this close, alot still can happen.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

philippec said:


> Smart strategy by Saxo Bank - but the real question is why Sastre didn't attack in the last col - he could have put some major padding between Evans and himself -- as it is, he will no doubt come up short in the TT. Also, in response to the OP, putting Sastre up front meant that Kohl and Evans had to work to bridge up and expose themselves to a counter by Schleck the elder. Good on Evans for not falling for that bait.


I would rather see anyone win than Evans.

I'd rather see Prudhomme win if it kept Evans out.....................


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

I think that CSC lost the tour today. What they did do is probably get two guys on the podium. Unfortunately for them that will be 2nd and 3rd. 
With Sastre attacking at the bottom of the last climb forced Frank Schleck to stay with Cadel. It appeared that Schleck was probably better than Cadel today and could have taken time on him. Sastre started 49 seconds behind Cadel and Frank Schleck was not able to gain any time that he needed for the tt on Saturday.
CSC needed to attack with Sastre and Andy Schleck on the croix de fer to force Cadel and his team to ride. Then the team wouldn't have to do the silly tempo on the front either. Well, CSC blew it. There will be no yellow jersey in Paris for them.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

cheddarlove said:


> WOW!! Cadel blew that one!! Or did he have no choice?
> And thanks for the input. I was certainly not getting it!


Cadel did not blow it, not by a long shot.

BTW basic cycling tactics is, when your team outnumbers the other one, you'd be stupid _not_ to attack. That's the whole game, you send someone out and force Evans (in this case) to choose between responding or not. Either way, you can just suck his wheel and let him do all the work. Do whatever you can to put the singleton into difficulty.

Evans hung in there. We might be looking back at today as the day Evans won the Tour.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2004)

I know that this tt is different from stage 4 but if you look at the results, Andy actually had a better TT than Sastre. But if you spread the gaps out that Evans had over Sastre in the first time trial, he will likely make up the difference. I agree though, I would rather have anyone win over Cadel. I just don't like him.


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## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

Good for Sastre. He is there to win as much as anyone. He saw the op and snatched it. I hope he takes it. 

Kind of off topic, but I almost fell off my chair this morning when Ligget said "Evans just sits back and wont attack"..... REALLY PHIL!!!! LOL. Give us some news we don't know


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

I don't dislike Cadel Evans. I just want to see someone more exciting win. If Evans had attacked, then I'd not mind him winning at all actually.


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

slowdave said:


> its the classic one two punch, if they pull back sastre then schleck attacks and it continuies untill they crack the better tt riders


+100
i'm suprised evans didn't set tempo earlier on the climb. He knew the score with sastre up ahead.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

that was a pretty boring finish (2 sastre attacks, and lots of guys looking at each other). i wonder if they'd taken out one of the first 2 passes and shortened the stage if there would have been more attacking on the alpe.


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

gobes said:


> I think that CSC lost the tour today. What they did do is probably get two guys on the podium. Unfortunately for them that will be 2nd and 3rd.
> With Sastre attacking at the bottom of the last climb forced Frank Schleck to stay with Cadel. It appeared that Schleck was probably better than Cadel today and could have taken time on him. Sastre started 49 seconds behind Cadel and Frank Schleck was not able to gain any time that he needed for the tt on Saturday.
> CSC needed to attack with Sastre and Andy Schleck on the croix de fer to force Cadel and his team to ride. Then the team wouldn't have to do the silly tempo on the front either. Well, CSC blew it. There will be no yellow jersey in Paris for them.


Pretty damn cogent argument as well. By not committing to one rider, CSC may
indeed have been compromising their ultimate goal. Strategizing is so complex!


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## cityeast (Sep 16, 2004)

uzziefly said:


> I don't dislike Cadel Evans. I just want to see someone more exciting win. If Evans had attacked, then I'd not mind him winning at all actually.


If Evans had attacked, it would have been competitive suicide. He's an ex-mountain biker with quite a sizeable frame. Menchov is in the same boat. Evans and Menchov are quietly saving their attacks for when they don their teardrop helmets and line up against the clock. 

I want either Evans (fellow countryman aside) or Menchov to win, as they are great all-rounders that don't have the luxury CSC has right now.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

gobes said:


> I think that CSC lost the tour today. What they did do is probably get two guys on the podium. Unfortunately for them that will be 2nd and 3rd.
> With Sastre attacking at the bottom of the last climb forced Frank Schleck to stay with Cadel. It appeared that Schleck was probably better than Cadel today and could have taken time on him. Sastre started 49 seconds behind Cadel and Frank Schleck was not able to gain any time that he needed for the tt on Saturday.
> CSC needed to attack with Sastre and Andy Schleck on the croix de fer to force Cadel and his team to ride. Then the team wouldn't have to do the silly tempo on the front either. Well, CSC blew it. There will be no yellow jersey in Paris for them.


I think this observation is spot on. I think Sastre needed another 30 seconds at least. In the end, I think CSC gets one guy on the podium in 3rd place. Menchov can put massive time into Sastre. 

Who knows, though. Maybe Carlos will have the ride of his life. I don't think Frank makes the podium though.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

fornaca68 said:


> It's too bad the Tour keeps throwing in these 50+ km ITTs that give the power riders like Armstrong, Evans, etc. 3, 4, 5 minutes in one day over the climbers. Imagine if Saturday's final ITT was a Giro- or Vuelta-esque 30 km -- it would be damn close between Evans and Sastre.


What the heck - you want the Tour to be castrated! They already have gotten rid of the TTT - which was always a fun battle to watch. There are six mountain stages and only two ITTs (w/ < 75km total) how is this unfair? The mountain goats have had their chances, they just didn't or couldn't attack more.

The Tour is Evans to lose, IMHO.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

godot said:


> that was a pretty boring finish (2 sastre attacks, and lots of guys looking at each other).


Welcome to the world of clean (somewhat clean?) cycling. But I agree, today was quite anti-climatic. The best climbing stage of the Tour (from a fan perspective) IMO was to Prato Nevoso. The Italians should incorporate that stage into their Giro next year.


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## Rider07 (Feb 25, 2007)

A lot may happen before the ITT, everyone acts like it is all down to the ITT, maybe not. I would not be surprised if something happens before then as the race has not been so exciting so far.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

uzziefly said:


> I don't dislike Cadel Evans. I just want to see someone more exciting win. If Evans had attacked, then I'd not mind him winning at all actually.


Well to be fair Evans did attack yesterday on the descent and in the first TT he just can't attack on the hills which he proved today - he is a bit flat to watch, but you got to admit he has heart cause dug deep to limit Sastre who was brilliant. I would be happy to see anyone of the tops guys win great to watch an open tour thats really coming down to the wire.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

tron said:


> I know that this tt is different from stage 4 but if you look at the results, Andy actually had a better TT than Sastre. But if you spread the gaps out that Evans had over Sastre in the first time trial, he will likely make up the difference. I agree though, I would rather have anyone win over Cadel. I just don't like him.


According to my calculations, if in the 53km TT the average speed of each rider remains the same as in the 1st TT, then Evans will cover the distance in 65 minutes, Menchov in 65:12, Sastre in 67:20. What CSC did today is relegate Menchov to a fight for 3rd place.
Most important thing to remember is that as a team, they have given their leader a chance at the yellow. 
One never knows what will happen on Saturday. Rain, narrow twisty roads etc.

Here are the results of the stage 20 20km TT of the Vuelta 2007:
1.Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 22.11 (54.09 km/h)
2.Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0.12
6.Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor - Lotto 0.19
15.Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 0.41

and here are the results of the stage 8 52.2 km TT of the Vuelta 2007:
1.Bert Grabsch (Ger) T-Mobile Team 57.05 (54.87 km/h)
4.Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 1.18
11.Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor - Lotto 2.20 
25.Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 4.03

Source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/vuelta07/?id=stages


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

godot said:


> that was a pretty boring finish (2 sastre attacks, and lots of guys looking at each other). i wonder if they'd taken out one of the first 2 passes and shortened the stage if there would have been more attacking on the alpe.


Well, once Sastre goes, neither Schleck is going to help in pursuit. Every non-CSC member of the leading group has the same goal in mind: to limit Sastre's take on the stage. Thus, they ride tempo together, working to bring him back as much as possible. There's too much risk for a Menchov or an Evans to attempt some heroic attack to try and gap their rivals, especially when their goal is to keep the margin manageable for Saturday's TT.


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

AJL said:


> The mountain goats have had their chances, they just didn't or couldn't attack more.
> 
> The Tour is Evans to lose, IMHO.


Agree with this observation. The TDF has always tried to be a bit more of an "all-rounder" type race then, say, the Giro. The winner tends to be a very good time trialer who can hang with the climbers on the big hills. Evans fits the bill the best this year, with Menchov not too far behind. VDV cracked on one climb and is out. Sastre still could take the victory in Paris, but he will have to have the ride of his life on Saturday.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

CSC shot themselves. It won't even be 2 on the podium. If they committed to Sastre, what was left of Voigt and Arverson and maybe even Andy. Frank could've led Sastre to the base, but a hard but super fast pace and than Sastre gone off.

To me, it looks like team CSC said you guys fight it out, but don't chase each other, Sastre took that to mean as soon as it turns uphill, I better get out of here, or else Frank will make the break and I'll have to wheelsuck the king of wheelsuckers.

I think Frank and Andy should've attacked when Sastre was 1 min up. Break up the pace of Cadel. Cadel was riding a smart race and his own tempo. You might as well get him out of the rhthym and see if you can really break him.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

I don't see why Evans is characterized as the big power rider. He's 5'8", 140 pounds!

He's probably the 3rd best climber in the Tour this year, behind Frank Schleck and Sastre.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

cityeast said:


> If Evans had attacked, it would have been competitive suicide. He's an ex-mountain biker with quite a sizeable frame. Menchov is in the same boat. Evans and Menchov are quietly saving their attacks for when they don their teardrop helmets and line up against the clock.
> 
> I want either Evans (fellow countryman aside) or Menchov to win, as they are great all-rounders that don't have the luxury CSC has right now.


Evans is about 140lbs. Not a big guy by any means.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

SilasCL said:


> I don't see why Evans is characterized as the big power rider. He's 5'8", 140 pounds!
> 
> He's probably the 3rd best climber in the Tour this year, behind Frank Schleck and Sastre.


Indeed. He's hardly big at all. Hell, Contador is 'bigger' at 5'9" and 140 plus.

I think Andy is one of the best in this Tour too as shown today.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

*No cruise to the ITT*



Rider07 said:


> A lot may happen before the ITT, everyone acts like it is all down to the ITT, maybe not. I would not be surprised if something happens before then as the race has not been so exciting so far.


I agree. Stage 18 ends with a 2 and a 4 climb. There are going to be some tired legs out there tomorrow.


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## stewie13 (Feb 5, 2005)

Its almost if most of you guys have absolutely no clue about cycling... which is surprising given that this is a cycling website 

I honestly don't see how CSC could have executed their strategy any better. They did everything in their power to give themselves the best chance at winning the tour.

You can talk a lot about complicated tactics but it really comes down to how has the legs and the situation in the race. Basically CSC's tactics were: 

1. Make the race very hard - hard tempo up the climbs
2. Have Sastre attack first and get away solo (or w/o a GC threat)
3. Force Evans to chase
4. Have F. Schleck counter attack Evans and try to get away
5. Race your bikes

CSC did all of that and F. Schleck repeatedly tried to get away from Evans but couldn't. It was much harder for F. Schleck to get away because with Sastre up the road he only could really put in huge efforts if he got a gap on Evans... which he did a few times but couldn't crack him. Plus everyone will chase the yellow jersey and not everyone will chase Sastre immediately.

It was much easier to let Sastre go at the beginning because Kohl, Evans, Menchov and F. Schleck were all marking each other. You may have noticed that I haven't mentioned A. Schleck at all... well he didn't really have a defined role... his job was basically to race his bike smartly... plus he looked the strongest of anyone out there.

CSC took a 7 second lead and expanded it to 1:34. They did an amazing job. I think most people will probably agree that Evans is the strongest rider overall in the tour and he may lose because how CSC has executed their strategy (imagine if Sastre and Evans switched teams). CSC probably has the 3rd, 4th and 5th strongest riders in the tour and their excellent tactics might still not be enough to get the overall win but they are doing everything possible to try.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

+1 to stewie13, his post answers the OP perfectly.


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## de.abeja (Aug 27, 2006)

I loved it when Sanchez shot past then Shleck followed and Ligget says "now if Cadel could just grab a wheel of Andy Schleck, now Menchov launched an attack, and Vandevelde is going they are all leaving Cadel Evans" lmfao


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## fatctycycl (Nov 9, 2003)

stewie13 said:


> ... Basically CSC's tactics were:
> 
> 4. Have F. Schleck counter attack Evans and try to get away


The strategy may have been to have the Schlecks make short attacks, knowing Evans would match them but forcing Cadel to waste energy from the constant accelerations, Thus slowing Cadel's overall time while Sastre does a constant, fast pace up the mountain.


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## varian72 (Jul 18, 2006)

Agree with Stewie. CSC was a locomotive and Evans simply sucked wheel well enough to stay within spitting distance.

that said.......

If I were any of the guys in the GC standings from Frank Schleck to his Bro Andy, I would pull a Landis like effort tomorrow (minus the drugs of course) to put my balls on the line for a podium spot. 

Why make a final boring TT the stage that decides the winner.

I know its hard to maintain a break let alone get one, but it has been done and Landis wasn't the first. What do they have lose? Absolutely nothing and everything to gain. 

Sometimes, I think it takes a jack-ass like Landis to prove a point. There is not enough desperation attempts in the Tour and it just bugs the hell out of me that it at least appears as though teams give up on these last two stages and bet their money on the TT. Let Sastre and Evans eye each other all day. The rest of the field should bust out.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

justinb said:


> There's too much risk for a Menchov or an Evans to attempt some heroic attack to try and gap their rivals, especially when their goal is to keep the margin manageable for Saturday's TT.


Evans didn't need to attack. I doubt Menchov had the legs to attack today -- if he could have given Schleck "The Look" and scampered up hill he would have.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

varian72 said:


> Sometimes, I think it takes a jack-ass like Landis to prove a point. There is not enough desperation attempts in the Tour and it just bugs the hell out of me that it at least appears as though teams give up on these last two stages and bet their money on the TT. Let Sastre and Evans eye each other all day. The rest of the field should bust out.


I bet that CSC will push the tempo very hard the next couple of days, if not to put time into Cadel, then at least more hurt into his legs.


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## kretzel (Aug 1, 2007)

pretender said:


> Cadel did not blow it, not by a long shot.
> 
> Evans hung in there. We might be looking back at today as the day Evans won the Tour.


I'd say it might be the day Evans didn't lose the Tour. I was bummed to see only one committed aggressor on the whole climb but glad to see it turned out to be the winner. 

What amazed me was that neither Evans nor VDV was willing/able to set any tempo to nail Menchov's coffin shut. VDV especially had a potential GC, and maybe a podium spot, to gain. I was really hoping VDV would smell blood and pounce. Easy for me to say...

Any way you slice it, a great race though.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Menchov must really be down on himself after losing 1:10+ to stupid mistakes. The 40 second gap due to crosswinds early in the race (bad positioning), and a terrible descent on stage 16 (bad technique). If it wasn't for those two things, he's the Tour winner. It certainly isn't a lack of engine. I was amazed he pulled himself back up into the GC group today. Bravo.

Also, I bet Sastre puts in a better TT than you'd think. As has been pointed out many times, the Yellow Jersey can give you wings, and he has the luxury of going last. 

The big thing I was wondering is why did Kohl and others chase down the AG2R guys, and Andy Schleck in the begging part of that stage? Andy, while riding well, was still 9 minutes down. Wouldn't it have made sense to let him go? Especially the AG2R guy that attacked. No threat to anything.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

kretzel said:


> ...
> 
> What amazed me was that neither Evans nor VDV was willing/able to set any tempo to nail Menchov's coffin shut. VDV especially had a potential GC, and maybe a podium spot, to gain. I was really hoping VDV would smell blood and pounce. Easy for me to say...
> 
> Any way you slice it, a great race though.


I'm actually happy about that. I'm glad that VdV won't be on the podium (unless disaster strikes for Menchov, Evans, or Sastre).


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> Menchov must really be down on himself after losing 1:10+ to stupid mistakes. The 40 second gap due to crosswinds early in the race (bad positioning), and a terrible descent on stage 16 (bad technique). If it wasn't for those two things, he's the Tour winner. It certainly isn't a lack of engine. I was amazed he pulled himself back up into the GC group today. Bravo.
> 
> Also, I bet Sastre puts in a better TT than you'd think. As has been pointed out many times, the Yellow Jersey can give you wings, and he has the luxury of going last.
> 
> The big thing I was wondering is why did Kohl and others chase down the AG2R guys, and Andy Schleck in the begging part of that stage? Andy, while riding well, was still 9 minutes down. Wouldn't it have made sense to let him go? Especially the AG2R guy that attacked. No threat to anything.


And by chasing Andy and not allowing him to go, he managed to cover for Frank as well at the end.


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

philippec said:


> Smart strategy by Saxo Bank - but the real question is why Sastre didn't attack in the last col - he could have put some major padding between Evans and himself -- as it is, he will no doubt come up short in the TT. .


I was thinking about that. My theory is that this is exactly what CSC would have done if they had placed a rider or two in the break. Then they could have driven the pace across the valley bottom, putting time into Evans and Menchov. If Sastre had attacked on the Col de la Croix de Fer I think Evans would have been able get back and Sastre might not have had the strength to sail clear on the last climb. 

But... I don't race bikes, just boats: way less tactical.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

It will be an exciting ITT!
After 3 weeks of hard riding, who know how much juice these guys have left in their tanks.
I recall, Contador rode a very good ITT last year and didn't lose as much time as predicted.
I have a feeling Sastre will ride a TT of his life, I thnk putting on a yellow jersey has that affect on a rider....


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

From what I understand, attacking riders aren't ID'd till they have a 30 second gap now. Is it possible a big name could get away like in the old days? I'm concerned the next couple days will be especially dull what with the TT coming up and the GC guys saving themselves. Perhaps if they didn't have radio's it would be a more exciting race.


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## Run1stBike2nd (Oct 28, 2005)

CSC did all they could today. CSC likely lost the Tour before today's stage. The 1st TT put them in a hole, and stage 16's non-mountain top finished sucked the tactics right out of the stage. CSC could've put more time into everyone on stage 16, but there was no sense having them using up their energy on that final climb only to have everything come back together on the descent and leave themselves tired for stage 17. 

Maybe Sastre can put together the ride of his life on Sat, but it looks like Evans will be wearing yellow in Paris.


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## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

Einstruzende said:


> I'm actually happy about that. I'm glad that VdV won't be on the podium (unless disaster strikes for Menchov, Evans, or Sastre).


Why the hate towards VdV?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

cheddarlove said:


> From what I understand, attacking riders aren't ID'd till they have a 30 second gap now. Is it possible a big name could get away like in the old days? I'm concerned the next couple days will be especially dull what with the TT coming up and the GC guys saving themselves. Perhaps if they didn't have radio's it would be a more exciting race.


No. In an earlier stage, Evans had McEwen on the front identifying riders that were getting in breaks and presumably make snap judgements about who needed to be chased down. You can bet he will be on guard the next two stages. Other teams at the top of the GC will be doing the same.


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## Opalius (Jul 23, 2008)

Nonetheless, whoever you root for, this would have been a very boring tour if it was not for CSC.

Imagine Menchov and Evans duking it out, each taking turns sucking wheels on somebody until the TT....


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

it's also considered a no-no to do something sly like trying to attack on the flat 'sprinter' stages after the alps. If someone does it, there won't be much of a secret in it. But it isn't going to happen. They'd sacrifice more energy trying something like that which would in turn lose them more time at the TT. 

Now trying to pick up a time bonus wasn't unheard of but that option isn't there.

you won't see any more GC action besides the TT.

all the cards have been played just the race of truth remains.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

Opalius said:


> Nonetheless, whoever you root for, this would have been a very boring tour if it was not for CSC.
> 
> Imagine Menchov and Evans duking it out, each taking turns sucking wheels on somebody until the TT....


Good point, that was about all there was to watch. I liked watching Cancellara and the boys lining up to lead the heads of state, as Sherwin calls them. I think there was some strategy in play there, whether it was a winning strategy or not. Everyone else looked like they had just been transported onto their saddles from an alternate reality and couldn't figure out what they were doing there!

I wasn't even sure there were other teams in the race, it just seemed like random racers cruising into the TV picture on occasion. Not saying I want the days of T-Mobile versus Disco but I wouldn't mind some Bloods and Crips once in awhile.


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## Opalius (Jul 23, 2008)

One thing I find interesting is Sastre vs. Evans through the last couple of years though.

2005 Stage 1 - 19km
Sastre +0.09

2005 Stage 20 - 55km
Evans +1.04

2006 Stage 7 - 52km
Evans +0.22

2006 Stage 19 - 57km
Evans +1.01

2007 Stage 13 - 54km
Evans +2.47

2007 Stage 19 - 55km
Evans +2.33

2008 Stage 4 - 29km
Evans +1.24

You never know, and all this talk about doping if one guy suddenly does better than the other. At least doping-wise it could easily be the other way around, and I find myself hoping that it will also be this way when it comes to the TT.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

godot said:


> that was a pretty boring finish (2 sastre attacks, and lots of guys looking at each other). i wonder if they'd taken out one of the first 2 passes and shortened the stage if there would have been more attacking on the alpe.


Phil or Paul said that talking was not allowed on the final climb. What was that about? Should penalty points to be awarded to the Schlecks? It was like Andy was having full-on conversations with his brother!


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

pretender said:


> I bet that CSC will push the tempo very hard the next couple of days, if not to put time into Cadel, then at least more hurt into his legs.


If they do that, especially on Thursday, they'll hurt Sastre's legs as well.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

moabbiker said:


> Phil or Paul said that talking was not allowed on the final climb. What was that about? Should penalty points to be awarded to the Schlecks? It was like Andy was having full-on conversations with his brother!


I believe Phil and Paul were talking about Schleck brothers talking to Valverde but I could be wrong....


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Opalius said:


> One thing I find interesting is Sastre vs. Evans through the last couple of years though.
> 
> 2005 Stage 1 - 19km
> Sastre +0.09
> ...


Or it could be as simple as their relative points in their careers.

Sastre is now 33, almost certainly past his prime, while Evans is only 31. A small difference but a difference nonetheless.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Opalius said:


> Nonetheless, whoever you root for, this would have been a very boring tour if it was not for CSC.
> 
> Imagine Menchov and Evans duking it out, each taking turns sucking wheels on somebody until the TT....


True but not too much more boring than when Lance was in the tour.
Everyone was racing for 2nd place for the most part......


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## The Sundance Kid (Oct 2, 2007)

gobes said:


> CSC needed to attack with Sastre and Andy Schleck on the croix de fer to force Cadel and his team to ride. Then the team wouldn't have to do the silly tempo on the front either. Well, CSC blew it. There will be no yellow jersey in Paris for them.


Sastre almost never attacks before the last climb because he's one of the worse descenders out there. It's too much of a gamble for him. He'd need a really big gap at the top of the Croix de Fer and if he gets caught on the descent or on the Alpe he could blow sky high. Even if he get's second or third in Paris he got a beautiful win today on the most fabled climb in cycling and I think that's swell. Sastre is a fantastic climber who rarely gets to go for the stage win because he's always high up on GC and he isn't going to win any small group sprints. I was very impressed and pleased that he won the stage today.


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## ajoc_prez (Jul 14, 2004)

I think Sastre would have even smoked Lance on this particular stage win. He was hauling asz.

:8:


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## Iwannapodiumgirl (Jun 26, 2002)

he attacked today because, like emilio lopez in mr deeds, sastre is sneaky sneaky...


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## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

Iwannapodiumgirl said:


> he attacked today because, like emilio lopez in mr deeds, sastre is sneaky sneaky...


Does he let the team smack his foot with a poker? :7:


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

crumjack said:


> Does he let the team smack his foot with a poker? :7:



ya.........
i mean no.....


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

So..

I hope one of the schleck bros go for a breakaway win tomorrow.

I believe the tactic is completely kosher.. since the stage is technically a transition stage....


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## Viking (Jan 3, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> Menchov must really be down on himself after losing 1:10+ to stupid mistakes. The 40 second gap due to crosswinds early in the race (bad positioning), and a terrible descent on stage 16 (bad technique). If it wasn't for those two things, he's the Tour winner. It certainly isn't a lack of engine. I was amazed he pulled himself back up into the GC group today. Bravo.
> 
> Also, I bet Sastre puts in a better TT than you'd think. As has been pointed out many times, the Yellow Jersey can give you wings, and he has the luxury of going last.
> 
> The big thing I was wondering is why did Kohl and others chase down the AG2R guys, and Andy Schleck in the begging part of that stage? Andy, while riding well, was still 9 minutes down. Wouldn't it have made sense to let him go? Especially the AG2R guy that attacked. No threat to anything.


I think Christian Vande Velde would have been the Tour winner if he wouldn't have lost 2 minutes on the descent the other day. You will see, he will win the TT and will be within 2 minutes of the overall lead.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

cpark said:


> It will be an exciting ITT!
> After 3 weeks of hard riding, who know how much juice these guys have left in their tanks.
> I recall, Contador rode a very good ITT last year and didn't lose as much time as predicted.
> I have a feeling Sastre will ride a TT of his life, I thnk putting on a yellow jersey has that affect on a rider....


It will be pretty close I think, and very exciting to watch. Sastre hasn't had to run a time of trial of his life before -- so he's going to give it all the gas he can. Cadel can produce the goods, but unlikely to be any better than we've already seen from him.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Viking said:


> I think Christian Vande Velde would have been the Tour winner if he wouldn't have lost 2 minutes on the descent the other day. You will see, he will win the TT and will be within 2 minutes of the overall lead.




only with a magical 65km/h tailwind


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## gray8110 (Dec 11, 2001)

ajoc_prez said:


> I think Sastre would have even smoked Lance on this particular stage win. He was hauling asz.
> 
> :8:


This is debatable - Sastre climbed the mountain in 39:31 today. 

The climb has had 16 people climb it faster in the the TDF...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d'Huez#Ascent_times


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## gray8110 (Dec 11, 2001)

ajoc_prez said:


> I think Sastre would have even smoked Lance on this particular stage win. He was hauling asz.
> 
> :8:


This is debatable - Sastre climbed the mountain in 39:31 today... Armstrong climbed it significantly faster in both of his wins.

The climb has had 16 people climb it faster in the the TDF...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d'Huez#Ascent_times

Might be a sign of cleaner race...


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## coldass (Oct 8, 2007)

fornaca68 said:


> It's too bad the Tour keeps throwing in these 50+ km ITTs that give the power riders like Armstrong, Evans, etc. 3, 4, 5 minutes in one day over the climbers. Imagine if Saturday's final ITT was a Giro- or Vuelta-esque 30 km -- it would be damn close between Evans and Sastre.



Without the prospect of the longer ITT we may not have seen the same level of racing from CSC in the mountains. Sastre may not have ridden off the front with the same effort. 

Where a climber may get 2-3mins on one of say 6 big climb stages. Giving the ITT specialists 2 stages, and only one long TT, doesn't seem too weighted by the race. 

The best all-rounder should win the Tour. This includes the best team.

In hindsight it is easy to say a shorter ITT may add to the tension. But we could easily say we want a long one, or a hilly one as well. If someone had a 2-3 minute lead we might hope for this.

I loved 2007's last TT. I hope the winner this year wins by 1 sec. I don't care who - although I prefer Evans as he has ridden an almost solo race and has clearly worked his ass off for the chance to win.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

In fact, the constant attacks, feints, etc. in the yellow jersey group helped Sastre b/c after each attack, the group slowd down a bit and never got a good rythm going up the nountain. That and Sastre's even-tempo ride is what gave Sastre his lead at the top.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

its not a tough enough stage to drop the important domestiques

nobody important will be able to go off the front

to answer the OP - 'because he wants to win the tour de france'


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

The Sundance Kid said:


> Sastre almost never attacks before the last climb because he's one of the worse descenders out there. It's too much of a gamble for him. He'd need a really big gap at the top of the Croix de Fer and if he gets caught on the descent or on the Alpe he could blow sky high. Even if he get's second or third in Paris he got a beautiful win today on the most fabled climb in cycling and I think that's swell. Sastre is a fantastic climber who rarely gets to go for the stage win because he's always high up on GC and he isn't going to win any small group sprints. I was very impressed and pleased that he won the stage today.


That's true and good for Sastre personally. But, for CSC to win the tour, they needed to attack on the croix de fer.
If Sastre had attacked on the croix de fer it would have forced Lotto and possibly even Cadel himself to ride before the final climb. If that had happened then Schleck could have then put more than 2 minutes into Cadel. As it turned out, it's unlikely that neither Sastre or Schleck will be ahead of Cadel after the tt on Saturday.


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## coldass (Oct 8, 2007)

gobesBut said:


> I dead-set agree. Now it will be left for Sastre to ride the ITT of his career. If he does it will be amazing. Perhaps CSC were hoping Cadel would have rode down Sastre's attack - being so early - and big brother Frank could have ridden more than 2-3 minutes in a second go. No doubt they (CSC) gave it a shot - I can't wait for the ITT.


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

sastre is a true climber, how many time have you heard phil or paul say that, what that means is sastre decends like a slug. Nobody who have chased him on the croix de fer as he would have had to decend and ride the 11km to the base of the alp d huez on his own. never who have worked csc played the tactical game perfectly. Frank will lose more time than sastre in a tt to evans and co.


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## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

SilasCL said:


> I don't see why Evans is characterized as the big power rider. He's 5'8", 140 pounds!


Perhaps he was thnking about his head?


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