# World Championship TT



## EMB145 Driver (Aug 17, 2006)

I guess this got lost in the Contador news.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...ourth-world-championship-time-trial-gold.aspx


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

He was over a minute faster than second place Millar?

Insane.

I love the quote from Millar - “The first lap I was going ‘God, this is going to hurt next time around’, and it did.”


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## FlandersFields (Jul 16, 2010)

I really dig Millar. The way he came back after his 'affair' is really great.
I can identificate with him as well, as I'm also a 'tall' rider.

Canc is just another league, I saw his ride live, and that monstrous gear he pushes is just...breathtaking.

Big up to Phinney as well. Some commenters over here say he might be the new...Merckx.

Can't wait for the road race.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

Spartacus road a massive TT today. He looked like he had it won half way through the first lap!!


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

I always find it interesting how Cancellera can be so dominant in ITT's and in winning classics, yet nobody every questions how he does it beyond the stupid motorized bike stuff.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Perico said:


> I always find it interesting how Cancellera can be so dominant in ITT's and in winning classics, yet nobody every questions how he does it beyond the stupid motorized bike stuff.


Nah its been questioned plenty. TT and classics go together well BTW most of his wins are solo attacks where he TT's to victory, even his wins where he won close in (MSR) are because he is able to accerate and hold a massive pace.

But most of us are here to try and enjoy the sport not question it constantly esp when we get to do that with actual evidence on a pretty reg basis. The whole he is doing really well so must be dirty is a sad argument.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

32and3cross said:


> Nah its been questioned plenty. TT and classics go together well BTW most of his wins are solo attacks where he TT's to victory, even his wins where he won close in (MSR) are because he is able to accerate and hold a massive pace.
> 
> But most of us are here to try and enjoy the sport not question it constantly esp when we get to do that with actual evidence on a pretty reg basis. The whole he is doing really well so must be dirty is a sad argument.


I have yet to see him questioned. Actually the two times I mentioned this possibility on other forums it was brushed aside without comment. I just find it hard to believe that we question so many people (even riders from years ago) but leave a guy who simply rides away from the best in the world at will alone.

I do enjoy cycling and think it is cleaner then most pro sports but looks bad because it is not a cash cow for the media, so they go after cycling and ignore the problems of other sports (see Puerto and La Liga) and because they have better testing.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Fabian's TT domination is not that a surprise IMO. TT are about an individual's strengths, you take out the various tactics, peloton positions and other things that adds to the more surprising nature of road events. Fabian is just a strong bull... and there aren't that many riders who focus on TT in the first place.

That doesn't mean I'd be very surprised to learn he was doping... but right now, all I can say is that he's an impressive rider and congratulate him for his results...


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

Perico said:


> I always find it interesting how Cancellera can be so dominant in ITT's and in winning classics, yet nobody every questions how he does it beyond the stupid motorized bike stuff.


If he had legs like tooth pics and weighed a 140lbs then people would question it more. Cancellara seems to be built perfectly for a flatish ride or TT. Now if wins a climbing stage in the TDF, question away.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

So how is he simply riding away from the best classics riders in the world as if they are Cat 5 riders?

P.S.- You guys are proving my point by dismissing any thought that Fabian could be doing something shady.


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## EMB145 Driver (Aug 17, 2006)

Perico said:


> So how is he simply riding away from the best classics riders in the world as if they are Cat 5 riders?
> 
> P.S.- You guys are proving my point by dismissing any thought that Fabian could be doing something shady.



Because the best riders in the world can't keep up with him. His threshold for pain appears to be quite high relative to the others, but he doesn't win every TT he enters. He has a tremendous training ability to peak for the classics (essentially a 2 week period), peak for the TDF (a 3 week period 3.5months later), and recover to peak for the worlds. He wasn't really hot for the TOC in May. The TT is his speciality, he's built for it, and when he's on, nobody can touch him. He does an excellent job of picking his races and succeeding in them. I can assure you they test him as much as anybody else on the pro tour.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Another proving my point. Any excuse to brush off any negative thoughts about his performances.


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## loubnc (May 8, 2008)

Maybe Perico will be happier if this just gets moved to the doping forum (since that's what "he" seems to be going for).:idea:


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

EMB145 Driver said:


> Because the best riders in the world can't keep up with him. His threshold for pain appears to be quite high relative to the others, but he doesn't win every TT he enters. He has a tremendous training ability to peak for the classics (essentially a 2 week period), peak for the TDF (a 3 week period 3.5months later), and recover to peak for the worlds. He wasn't really hot for the TOC in May. The TT is his speciality, he's built for it, and when he's on, nobody can touch him. He does an excellent job of picking his races and succeeding in them. I can assure you they test him as much as anybody else on the pro tour.


Isn't that the exact same argument people used with Armstrong? Higher threshold for pain, training for specific events, tremendous work ethic, most tested rider, etc....

Makes one laugh just a little when I see this type of explination of his TT dominance :thumbsup:

With that said...I love to watch him race, but I don't belive it's clean...not one bit!


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## EMB145 Driver (Aug 17, 2006)

Wookiebiker said:


> Isn't that the exact same argument people used with Armstrong? Higher threshold for pain, training for specific events, tremendous work ethic, most tested rider, etc....
> 
> Makes one laugh just a little when I see this type of explination of his TT dominance :thumbsup:
> 
> With that said...I love to watch him race, but I don't belive it's clean...not one bit!


I made no claim to him being clean or otherwise, I just said he's the best at what he does. 4 World TT Championships has got to stand for something, amongst his other accomplishments. What about Millar? Are we sure he's clean now, he beat everybody but Spartacus? Basso won the Giro, did he not learn his lesson? With the news today, anybody that wins must be cheating. If you're going to have a career in pro-cycling, earning a living, you better sit up at the finish line so as not to cast doubt on your efforts.

Threshold for pain--anybody that can ride Flanders and Roubaix the way he did, doping or not, is tougher than most in the peloton.

Training for a specific event--Surely Wookie with your racing background you know exactly what this is about.

Work ethic--That one's yours, but I'm sure it works into training and peaking.

Dope tested--Apparently, the testing is working. Spartacus may or may not be doping, but his beating the he!! out of everyone else doesn't make him dirty or clean.

If you have another explanation for his TT dominance, I'd like to hear it.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

EMB145 Driver said:


> If you have another explanation for his TT dominance, I'd like to hear it.


I just said that your explination was the same people have used for Armstrong for years....that's all  

As for other cyclists...I have stated on numerous occasions that I don't think any of them are clean, even most domestic pro's for that matter.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Not buying the whole dopeing thing until there is evidence (the motor thing was a joke - and widly ageed upon as such - but believe what you want).
Until that, I have to agree with others, Sparticus is a great TTer - the Michael Jordan of TTing with a huge motor (in his legs, not his bike!) and I expect him to crush all others doing that, just as I expect Cav to win each sprint he is in.
But there will always be an element that will question this, and frankly, can we really blame them?


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## Swish (Jul 31, 2004)

No-one takes as much risk as FC, he picks the cleanest lines: mere inches away from fences and spectators.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*now Wookie..*



Wookiebiker said:


> Isn't that the exact same argument people used with Armstrong? Higher threshold for pain, training for specific events, tremendous work ethic, most tested rider, etc....
> 
> Makes one laugh just a little when I see this type of explination of his TT dominance :thumbsup:
> 
> With that said...I love to watch him race, but I don't belive it's clean...not one bit!


your club isn't exactly known for being slouches in TT events now, is it? I mean your Cat. 3 squad beat several Cat. 1 teams in the 2009 TTT. 

How should we explain that dominance?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

As gh1 noted, given his build, his results are not surprising. As swish just noted, not only does he have the power, he handles his TT bike extremely well.

Physiologically, FC is good but not anything I'd consider out of the ordinary given his training and build. If you look at his classics campaign, he was using the same physiological adaptations to win the classics as he does in a TT. Don't forget that he was assisted by the field not trying to chase him down. I have no doubt the 7 or 8 man break when Boonen was caught off guard could have caught FC if they all worked hard, but they chose not to in an effort to only fight for the podium. 

I don't really suspect any foul play with FC, unless he starts dominating climbing races.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

how did he win the TDS then?


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

bahueh said:


> your club isn't exactly known for being slouches in TT events now, is it? I mean your Cat. 3 squad beat several Cat. 1 teams in the 2009 TTT.
> 
> How should we explain that dominance?


True, we beat all but 3 teams this year and in 2008 we even beat one of the Land Rover/ORBEA teams  .... Though they had raced the OBRA RR championships the day before.  Having more than a few guys that concentrate on TT's throughout the season and race on the road for fun helps when it comes to the TTT  .

With that said...it's a little different than beating the rest of the world by over a minute this year and 2 minutes last year, winning four championships in a continuing era of doping. Things like that tend to raise a bit of suspicion :blush2:


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Cancellara and Millar were both amazing. Tony Martin's ride was also fantastic: Without having to change his front wheel, who knows what could have been? Porte wasn't too shabby either.
Great TT.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> how did he win the TDS then?


Last year there was much less climbing and he had enough time gained during the TT that all he had to do was give the climbers a reasonable leash to preserve the overall.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Dan Gerous said:


> Fabian's TT domination is not that a surprise IMO. TT are about an individual's strengths, you take out the various tactics, peloton positions and other things that adds to the more surprising nature of road events. Fabian is just a strong bull... and there aren't that many riders who focus on TT in the first place.
> 
> That doesn't mean I'd be very surprised to learn he was doping... but right now, all I can say is that he's an impressive rider and congratulate him for his results...


I don't follow. If you take out the tactics, even MORE reason to question the "individual" performance, not less.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

55x11 said:


> I don't follow. If you take out the tactics, even MORE reason to question the "individual" performance, not less.


I meant it as it's more normal to see consistant results with less tactics, the rider can't hide or be protected by a stronger team and the unpredictable nature of a road race. A stronger and faster rider is stronger and faster, there are not as many variables that makes it out of this world to consistantly have such results. Hope that makes more sense...


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

FlandersFields said:


> I really dig Millar. The way he came back after his 'affair' is really great.
> I can identificate with him as well, as I'm also a 'tall' rider.
> 
> Canc is just another league, I saw his ride live, and that monstrous gear he pushes is just...breathtaking.
> ...


Phinney will not be Merckx. Taylor is too big. I don't think we'll see another Merckx for at least a few more generations.

Edvald Boassen Hagen may still come around, but it's looking less likely every year. Maybe Peter Sagan will be the next closest thing?


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## iktome (Aug 29, 2003)

Wookiebiker said:


> ...As for other cyclists...I have stated on numerous occasions that I don't think any of them are clean, even most domestic pro's for that matter.


Given the power numbers you've claimed for yourself, should we include you in that blanket statement?

You jumped off the couch and suddenly were throwing down 400 watts for 20 minutes? And we should believe that's clean?

And if you are clean (which you obviously doubt yourself, which is sort of messed up), then why can't we believe that someone like Cancellara can do what he does clean as well? It's not like he's some brand new Cat 4 destroying everyone in the TTs. Because if that happened, then we'd all know he was doping.


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## slimjw (Jul 30, 2008)

iktome said:


> Given the power numbers you've claimed for yourself, should we include you in that blanket statement?
> 
> You jumped off the couch and suddenly were throwing down 400 watts for 20 minutes? And we should believe that's clean?
> 
> And if you are clean (which you obviously doubt yourself, which is sort of messed up), then why can't we believe that someone like Cancellara can do what he does clean as well? It's not like he's some brand new Cat 4 destroying everyone in the TTs. Because if that happened, then we'd all know he was doping.


The Wook is a big guy who trains hard. Read his forum or blog posts. I don't think his numbers are unreasonable considering his build and the amount of time he spends on his trainer. And his comments about Cancellara were simply opinion and stated as such. 

I hope the guy trounced everyone purely by spinning those mighty legs, too, but don't begrudge those who would voice doubt when recent history has shown similar feats were assisted by PED use instead of, or at least in addition to talent.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

iktome said:


> Given the power numbers you've claimed for yourself, should we include you in that blanket statement?
> 
> You jumped off the couch and suddenly were throwing down 400 watts for 20 minutes? And we should believe that's clean?
> 
> And if you are clean (which you obviously doubt yourself, which is sort of messed up), then why can't we believe that someone like Cancellara can do what he does clean as well? It's not like he's some brand new Cat 4 destroying everyone in the TTs. Because if that happened, then we'd all know he was doping.


Lets see...I'm 190 pounds when in race shape and have a personal best of 391 watts for 20 minutes on a training ride, which works out to around 4.56 watts/kg which is under the w/kg numbers even a average CAT 2 racer and many CAT 3's can put out.

However....Chris Horner put out those wattage numbers (6.12 w/kg) more than 2 weeks into a 3 week grand tour, at the end of a 100+ mile stage with lots of climbing and weighs around 140 pounds. His hour number is likely higher than mine by 15 watts or so.

For Cancellara I would be willing to guess he's putting out around 470-500 watts for an hour (6.5 w/kg - 6.9 w/kg) at 170 pounds during his TT efforts. My best ever hour effort is 334 watts (3.86 w/kg)....Pretty big difference there.

As for jumping off the couch and putting out 400 watts for 20 minutes...Oh how I wish I could have done that :thumbsup: 

The truth is I was a collegiate athlete (thrower) who could throw around a lot of weight and took a lot of crap for my "Chocolate Milk and Moon Pie" diet that I had at the time when I'd run to the local "Circle K" at midnight for a snack. At one point I was squatting over 600 pounds and benching 455....then add to the fact that I've ridden bikes for going on 18 years now...though mostly road MTB's for the first 10 years of that with a 3-4 year break in the middle...it's not like I "Jumped off the couch and put out 400 watts for 20 minutes".

BTW...try spending 12 hours a week on the trainer with lots of intervals during the winter and see what kind of shape you come into the next season with, you might be surprised how much it helps. Then in the summer make time for 15-18 hours a week on the bike....just to be competitive in the CAT 3's or Masters 1/2/3 races :thumbsup: 

As for domestic pro's...There will be more than a few getting 2 year bans in the near future for purchasing EPO and HGH off the internet...as well as many Masters level amateurs. I'd say there is more than enough evidence out there showing that even at the lower levels of the pro ranks and the middle and upper levels of amateur racing there is even high level PED usage.

When you get to the top pro's...it's kind of like football in the U.S. which is basically, you do what it takes to help your team out otherwise you're not a team player and not on the team...read what ever you want into that.


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## EMB145 Driver (Aug 17, 2006)

Wookiebiker said:


> Lets see...I'm 190 pounds when in race shape and have a personal best of 391 watts for 20 minutes on a training ride, which works out to around 4.56 watts/kg which is under the w/kg numbers even a average CAT 2 racer and many CAT 3's can put out.
> 
> However....Chris Horner put out those wattage numbers (6.12 w/kg) more than 2 weeks into a 3 week grand tour, at the end of a 100+ mile stage with lots of climbing and weighs around 140 pounds. His hour number is likely higher than mine by 15 watts or so.
> 
> ...



Are you saying that hard work, training ethic, and threshold for pain took you to the high competitive level you're at???? Isn't that the same argument people made for Armstrong????  Sorry, I couldn't miss the opportunity to throw it back a bit. BTW, I agree with you 100% on your post regarding domestic pros and amateurs. Looked at your blog too, cool. Keep up the hard work.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

EMB145 Driver said:


> Are you saying that hard work, training ethic, and threshold for pain took you to the high competitive level you're at???? Isn't that the same argument people made for Armstrong????  Sorry, I couldn't miss the opportunity to throw it back a bit. BTW, I agree with you 100% on your post regarding domestic pros and amateurs. Looked at your blog too, cool. Keep up the hard work.


LOL...


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## iktome (Aug 29, 2003)

Wookiebiker said:


> ...BTW...try spending 12 hours a week on the trainer with lots of intervals during the winter and see what kind of shape you come into the next season with, you might be surprised how much it helps. Then in the summer make time for 15-18 hours a week on the bike....just to be competitive in the CAT 3's or Masters 1/2/3 races :thumbsup: ...


You should have ended this with "I'm on my bike.... what are you on?"

But I think this demonstrates the problem more than anything. For whatever reason, cyclists like to assume that we're all born with the potential to be good. So when someone else is a lot better than we are, we assume it's because they had some "help." The reality is that we just aren't that good and have a hard time accepting it. I don't know how many times I've heard good cyclists complain that someone they/we compete against is doping. What's the proof? He's faster than the complainer. Nothing more.

It doesn't take anywhere near your amount of work to be competitive in the Cat 3s or Masters races. It doesn't take anywhere near that amount of work to be competitive in PNW Pro/1/2 races. And it doesn't take drugs either. I say that from personal experience. If you don't have the genetic predisposition to be a good cyclist, you can still do really well with a lot of hard work, but there is a limit. Other people don't have the same limits and they are going to be faster than the rest of us, no matter what we do. That doesn't mean those guys are doping.

Cancellara is huge (he's reported at 180 lbs with a tiny little cyclists upper body). He's spent his whole life on a bike. He does nothing else. In a lot of ways, he's the perfect TT machine. He might be doping, but why can't we accept the possibility that really good riders might show up every once in a while.

And this is the saddest thing about dopers---the rest of us now assume anyone who is fast is doping. There are a lot of really strong, clean riders out there. Guys who are a lot stronger than you are. Guys who are a lot smaller and stronger than you are. But that doesn't mean they are all doping.


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## Uncle Jam's Army (Aug 1, 2006)

The thing that strikes me is that FC TT's on almost brutish strength. His TT position on the bike is quite wide. He overcomes this because he has so much more power than anyone else.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

iktome said:


> You should have ended this with "I'm on my bike.... what are you on?"
> 
> But I think this demonstrates the problem more than anything. For whatever reason, cyclists like to assume that we're all born with the potential to be good. So when someone else is a lot better than we are, we assume it's because they had some "help." The reality is that we just aren't that good and have a hard time accepting it. I don't know how many times I've heard good cyclists complain that someone they/we compete against is doping. What's the proof? He's faster than the complainer. Nothing more.
> 
> ...


My reasoning is this:

The amount of pro level cyclists that have been caught from domestiques to top level pros is extremely high. We can all agree that HGH, EPO, certain roids', etc. make a big difference in performance on the bike. If top level cyclists are beating other cyclists that have been caught and proven to be dopers...chances are pretty good that the winner that wasn't caught is a doper as well because they are not that much "Genetically superior" than other top level pro's that have been caught.

The conclusion I make from this is…they are all doping, some are just better at hiding it than others.

As for the Domestic pro and amateur ranks...Look no farther than the recent investigation that netted multiple names of domestic pro's and masters level racers that were ordering from an online store illegal PED's...i.e. EPO and HGH, of which penalties will be given to those riders that were stupid enough to use their own credit card and have it mailed to their home address. If I recall correctly there were somewhere in the range of 130+ athletes receiving these PED's.

This just scratches the surface of the PED usage and is just "One" site on the web....there are hundreds of sites like this, and many more underground places people can get PED's.

Does this mean you can’t be fast without using PED’s? No, not at all. I know plenty of guys that throttle me on a regular basis that I’d put money on them being clean. However, the number that are using PED’s even in the mid amateur ranks (let alone the pro’s, domestic or otherwise) would surprise/shock the vast majority of people on this web site as well as at their local racing scene. Again…here, I’ll go back to the number of high school athletes using high level PED’s just to be competitive at the high school level and the number of non athletes using them just to look better.

I do admit that genetics play a large role in how well somebody does when it comes to a specific sport. 

I'm the first to admit I'm not genetically predisposed to be good at cycling and have to work harder than others do just to be competitive. If you took the cyclists that are beating me on the bike and put us all in a weight room...I'd throttle them there, or put us in a throwing ring and again I'd throttle them there since that's where strengths are when it comes to athletics

However, there are limits to genetics and being around athletes all my life I have a pretty good idea of when people are doping and when they are not. There are physical limits to the human body and what it can do/sustain. I don't burry my head in the sand that it doesn't happen.

Cancellara is an amazing racer and I love to watch him race and destroy the competition…however, I don’t for one minute believe he is that much better than everybody else in the world on a consistent basis. His TT superiority is every bit as dominant as Armstrong’s hold on the Tour de France.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Even though they are all genetically gifted to make it to that level, not all pro cyclists have the same physilogical capacities. Some are naturally more gifted than others, and some don't react to the same training and preparation the same way. There are many factors that can make the difference between riding like Fabian and being just a good professional cyclist. Doping can make a difference but it's far from being the only factor and even the most important IMO.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Perico said:


> Another proving my point. Any excuse to brush off any negative thoughts about his performances.


You mean we are not agreeing tha the whole "he's doing well he must be doping" argument is a good one. Sorry you you want to cast doubt you have to come up with better arguments than that. The only person you are proving your point to is yourself.


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## Tugboat (Jul 17, 2006)

I went over to Australia to watch and was surprised that FC didn't actually look as "fast" as some of the other riders. With Millar it was clear that he was on a mission do do a quick time and was really attacking the second climb. In comparison. FC was a lot smoother and less apparent just how powerfully he was riding. I was actually surprised that his winning margin was as great as it was.


Here's a few of my shots from the day, hope you don't mind me sharing them here...

1. Triple world champion Michael Rogers (Australia)...











2. Tejay Van Garderen (USA)...











3. Luis Leon Sanchez (Spain)...











4. Richie Porte (Australia)...











5. Former world champion Bert Grabsch (Germany)...











6. Fabian Cancellara / Spartacus! (Switzerland)...











7. Dave Zabriskie (USA)...











8. Sylvain Chavanel (France)...










Full gallery here if anyone's interested... https://adrianrumney.zenfolio.com/p1015034269


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## Swish (Jul 31, 2004)

If we're pulling the 'everyone's using card' (I rather stay a bit naive than this cynical) he still beats his opponents by a fair margin. His technical skills in cornering and descending, his risk taking, his very big power output, his high cadence, and his good position all work towards that single goal, a TT monster. Oh and I think he's very ambitious. Regardless of PED's the man has raw talent for TT. (is my man crush showing? haha)


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