# good pedalling technique



## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

I have some problems with my pedalling technique. Sometimes in the flats i feel great, really smooth. But other times the legs and feet are all over the place and it feels like ****. In the climbs i think it comes naturally to me.
I would like to pedal like this


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## Thomas47 (Nov 10, 2013)

At British Cycling they teach us that pedalling with one foot clipped in, in the easiest gear possible at a cadence under 90 rpm is the best way to improve pedalling technique. If you hear your rear mech clang then that is where your dead spot is.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

How are your legs and feet all over the place. Are you clipped in?


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

Yeah i feel like i don't know how to pedal a bike.
What's the trick to pedal like Peter Sagan?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

plx said:


> Yeah i feel like i don't know how to pedal a bike.
> What's the trick to pedal like Peter Sagan?


Seriously? He's barely at 90rpm. A cadence of 90 should be very easy to do for pretty much anyone. Are you just trying wayyyy too hard? Start at 70-80 and work your way up? Honestly I've never heard anyone say that are 'all over the place' at 90rpm.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Thomas47 said:


> At British Cycling they teach us that pedalling with one foot clipped in, in the easiest gear possible at a cadence under 90 rpm is the best way to improve pedalling technique. If you hear your rear mech clang then that is where your dead spot is.


Do they really teach such nonsense?


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

He's so smooth, there is no wasted energy there. Must be one of the reasons explaining his sucess.

So what he does he do? pushes hard on top and downstroke and then pushes back?
At the back before lifting does he do any move? And during the lifting what is the trick?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

plx said:


> So what he does he do?


large volumes of riding and racing.

you're over thinking it.


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

Yeah, i think most people dont even think about it while on the bike lol
But it doesn't come naturally to me, sometimes it does for a few minutes and it feels amazing but then there goes the sync of the legs.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

plx said:


> Yeah, i think most people dont even think about it while on the bike lol
> But it doesn't come naturally to me, sometimes it does for a few minutes and it feels amazing but then there goes the sync of the legs.


Don't pull "up" on the pedals...that will mess you up faster than anything. Just think about being smooth. Find a good cadence for you and ride your bike. Don't mash, just pedal.


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Don't pull "up" on the pedals...that will mess you up faster than anything. Just think about being smooth. Find a good cadence for you and ride your bike. Don't mash, just pedal.


Yeah i tried to pull and it obv was not good idea. 
I read an article that you should try to keep the feet just above the pedal without pulling. I think i got that part.
Then at the top and the downstroke there is quite some ankling but i still dont get the transition from the back to the upstroke, what is it like to scrap mud of shoe?
English is not my main language


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

Just push down on the pedal. It's not rocket science even though people are trying to make it that. Anything other than pushing down is wasted effort. It uses more energy and produces less power.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Make sure you have a bike well fitted for you. That's far more important for helping with pedalling that any mud scraping thoughts. 

Good fit, riding lots and doing hard efforts every so often will do what you need.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

plx said:


> What's the trick to pedal like Peter Sagan?


There definitely a correlation between looking smooth on the bike and cycling success. That's why Froome won the TDF.


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

I honestly dont get why people dont like his style. He is much more smooth than Contador as an example


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

plx said:


> I honestly dont get why people dont like his style. He is much more smooth than Contador as an example


Style is completely irrelevant. It WILL NOT make you a faster cyclist. Just push down. Anything else is wasted effort not only physically but mentally. Thinking about the noise of one hand clapping will be more beneficial when riding a bike. The pedals will go in circles by themselves, I promise. My 4 year old can do it.


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes it will. If you like the feel if your pedalling you will have more fun during training and you will train more


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## AZ.MTNS (Jun 29, 2009)

Some folks just aren't good at pedaling, you may be one of them.


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

brianmcg said:


> Just push down on the pedal. It's not rocket science even though people are trying to make it that. Anything other than pushing down is wasted effort. It uses more energy and produces less power.


Talking about wasted effort, how much of the pushing down force you apply between 1 and 2 o'c is converted into chain drive power, it could be 100% with the right technique.
From Cyclingnews:
" Lance's agile, toes down pedaling style may be visually reminiscent of 5 time Tour De France Champion Jacques Anquetil. Cyclingnews discussed Lance Armstrong with Jean-Yves Donor. Mr. Donor covers cycling for Paris daily Le Figaro and is head of the International Association of Cycling Journalists. We asked Donor if the comparison of Lance with Anquetil is appropriate. 

"Well, not really," said Donor. "Anquetil was a elegant rider who was really a time trial specialist in his day. His riding style was so smooth he looked like he was just sailing along. Anquetil was very powerful in his rear end, and used this to drive his pedaling, while not moving his upper body." 

"On the other hand, Armstrong is a much more physical rider than Anquetil. He uses his arms and shoulders to power the bike.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

plx said:


> So what he does he do? pushes hard on top and downstroke and then pushes back?
> At the back before lifting does he do any move? And during the lifting what is the trick?


He is a genetic mutant who found his calling on the bike. That is the trick. His pedal form is at best insignificant. There are probably lots of amateurs who have a "better" (more efficient?) pedal stroke than Sagan


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dnc said:


> Talking about wasted effort, how much of the pushing down force you apply between 1 and 2 o'c is converted into chain drive power, it could be 100% with the right technique.
> From Cyclingnews:
> " Lance's agile, toes down pedaling style may be visually reminiscent of 5 time Tour De France Champion Jacques Anquetil. Cyclingnews discussed Lance Armstrong with Jean-Yves Donor. Mr. Donor covers cycling for Paris daily Le Figaro and is head of the International Association of Cycling Journalists. We asked Donor if the comparison of Lance with Anquetil is appropriate.
> 
> ...


Well if it isn't Noel Crowley again. Don't you ever give up on this? You've been embarrassed by these claims so many times over the years you would think you would have had enough. I remember your claims to have "discovered" how to get significantly more power by "special pedaling techniques" and when people called you on it you disappeared like snow on a spring day.


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

Kerry Irons said:


> Well if it isn't Noel Crowley again. Don't you ever give up on this? You've been embarrassed by these claims so many times over the years you would think you would have had enough. I remember your claims to have "discovered" how to get significantly more power by "special pedaling techniques" and when people called you on it you disappeared like snow on a spring day.


 After over 120 years of research do you believe Osymetric rings are the final attempt by engineers to compensate for pedaling's dead spot sector. Maybe you could explain to riders why you believe the dead spot sector (11-1 o'c) will always exist in the pedaling circle, when in reality it's as easy if not easier to apply the same maximal torque through 12, 1 and 2 o'c as that applied through 2, 3 and 4 o'c. Cyclists don't look at pedaling techniques anymore, they are more interested in the bikes being used. A free demonstration and detailed explanation of this " dead spot " eliminating technique will always be freely available to anyone who is seriously interested in learning more about it.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Now is the perfect time to improve technique and gain aerobic fitness. 

I plan on spending the next few months spinning at 90-110 rpms.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dnc said:


> After over 120 years of research do you believe Osymetric rings are the final attempt by engineers to compensate for pedaling's dead spot sector. Maybe you could explain to riders why you believe the dead spot sector (11-1 o'c) will always exist in the pedaling circle, when in reality it's as easy if not easier to apply the same maximal torque through 12, 1 and 2 o'c as that applied through 2, 3 and 4 o'c. Cyclists don't look at pedaling techniques anymore, they are more interested in the bikes being used. A free demonstration and detailed explanation of this " dead spot " eliminating technique will always be freely available to anyone who is seriously interested in learning more about it.


I'm sure this 'technique' you've invented will take the cycling world by storm any day now. 
:rolleyes5:


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

cxwrench said:


> I'm sure this 'technique' you've invented will take the cycling world by storm any day now.
> :rolleyes5:


 No, only the individual TT and individual Pursuit branch of the sport. I am waiting on BrimBros (force/vector) PM to verify my claims. Different techniques are needed for the various situations or requirements that arise in cycling.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dnc said:


> No, only the individual TT and individual Pursuit branch of the sport. I am waiting on BrimBros (force/vector) PM to verify my claims. Different techniques are needed for the various situations or requirements that arise in cycling.


You see this is where the nonsense reaches full flower. We heard this exact same line from you a decade ago when you claimed to have cracked the code of pedaling technique. You should realize that after 10 or so years, people stop believing that your "proof" is just around the corner.

What I believe is that after 120 years we have seen it all, most of it over and over and over again. Out of round chain rings have been reinvented probably a dozen times and each reinvention was going to be the answer. No such luck.

I'll take it as my responsibility to keep calling you out until you actually produce evidence. It hasn't happened yet and you've been claiming it for years.


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

"Make sure you have a bike well fitted for you. That's far more important for helping with pedalling that any mud scraping thoughts. 

Good fit, riding lots and doing hard efforts every so often will do what you need."

I agree with Alex's recommendations. 

I really wanted to ride smoothly, and always focused on my form, trying not to waste unnecessary effort. Biggest improvement to smoothness I made was riding a spin bike with a power readout in front of a mirror over the winter when I couldn't ride outside. I observed my form, and tried to quiet my upper body - while putting in increasingly hard efforts and bursts of high RPM. Core strength (back support muscles) will really improve your strength and smoothness too. Top swimmers find flaws in their strokes by swimming in endless pools, where water speed is increased until their stroke starts to break down. Spinning at high resistance and/or high RPM will do the same thing. Riding in front of a mirror gives you immediate bio-feed back.


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

Kerry Irons said:


> What I believe is that after 120 years we have seen it all, most of it over and over and over again. Out of round chain rings have been reinvented probably a dozen times and each reinvention was going to be the answer. No such luck.



Houdaille, rotorcranks, Z shaped etc. cranks and non round rings, but all of these attempts are from the equipment side of pedaling, how many tried to solve the problem by simply changing how you generate and apply the force from shoe to standard crank. Again I ask you, why do you believe that dead spot sector 11-1 o'c will always be permanent fixture in the pedalling circle.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

dnc said:


> Anquetil was very powerful in his rear end...


well he was know to bum a *** now and then.


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

den bakker said:


> well he was know to bum a *** now and then.



Every cyclist has very powerful muscles in their rear end, but they do not know how to use them to generate additional maximal crank force and by means of the lower leg muscles and ankles apply this maximal force tangentially through 12, 1 and 2 o'c. Apart from their rear end muscles, cyclists don't know how to use the muscles of their lower legs and ankles, Alex is living proof of this fact.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dnc said:


> Houdaille, rotorcranks, Z shaped etc. cranks and non round rings, but all of these attempts are from the equipment side of pedaling, how many tried to solve the problem by simply changing how you generate and apply the force from shoe to standard crank. Again I ask you, why do you believe that dead spot sector 11-1 o'c will always be permanent fixture in the pedalling circle.


Again I ask you how come you've been making these claims for a decade and yet have nothing by way of evidence or proof?


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dnc said:


> Every cyclist has very powerful muscles in their rear end, but they do not know how to use them to generate additional maximal crank force and by means of the lower leg muscles and ankles apply this maximal force tangentially through 12, 1 and 2 o'c. Apart from their rear end muscles, cyclists don't know how to use the muscles of their lower legs and ankles, Alex is living proof of this fact.


And isn't it a real knee slapper that somebody has revived a 3 year old thread where you were making the exact same claims? And the funniest part is that then, just as now, you were claiming that proof of your miracle discovery was just around the corner. Three years gone and zero evidence. Of course that comes as no surprise because you've been singing this exact same song for over a decade. Don't you get tired of getting caught over and over?


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

Kerry Irons said:


> And isn't it a real knee slapper that somebody has revived a 3 year old thread where you were making the exact same claims? And the funniest part is that then, just as now, you were claiming that proof of your miracle discovery was just around the corner. Three years gone and zero evidence. Of course that comes as no surprise because you've been singing this exact same song for over a decade. Don't you get tired of getting caught over and over?


 That's easily explained, BrimBros Powermeter was supposed to be ready back then but due to on going problems in perfecting the PM it will not be available until early next year or so we are told. But what type of proof do you need, The PM will supply a graph of torque around the 360 degrees of the pedaling circle and that can be compared with natural pedaling's sinusoidal graph. Then claims forgery will probably appear. Why wait for BrimBros ?, because it is supposed to be the leading PM and is being developed locally, they will be able to do the testing.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Kerry Irons said:


> And isn't it a real knee slapper that somebody has revived a 3 year old thread where you were making the exact same claims? And the funniest part is that then, just as now, you were claiming that proof of your miracle discovery was just around the corner. Three years gone and zero evidence. Of course that comes as no surprise because you've been singing this exact same song for over a decade. Don't you get tired of getting caught over and over?


I'm the one who revived that thread. 

After reading this thread I went googling for more information. _That_ thread popped up. The conversations were so similar that I mixed up the tabbed browsers. When I commented there I thought I was commenting here.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> That's easily explained, BrimBros Powermeter was supposed to be ready back then but due to on going problems in perfecting the PM it will not be available until early next year or so we are told. But what type of proof do you need, The PM will supply a graph of torque around the 360 degrees of the pedaling circle and that can be compared with natural pedaling's sinusoidal graph. Then claims forgery will probably appear. Why wait for BrimBros ?, because it is supposed to be the leading PM and is being developed locally, they will be able to do the testing.


What I tried to ask over in the other thead is this: 

I do not fully understand what you are proposing. Do you have a video or article that helps explain things?


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

Local Hero said:


> What I tried to ask over in the other thead is this:
> 
> I do not fully understand what you are proposing. Do you have a video or article that helps explain things?



Pedaling without a dead spot sector or pause in your power application, starting your power stroke at 11 instead of 1 o'c and ending at 5 o'c, applying the same power at 12 as at 3 o'c, as this video (I hope) demonstrates. Youtube.com Videos - RECORD DELL'ORA: JACQUES ANQUETIL 1967 (AL VIGORELLI) Videos


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> Pedaling without a dead spot sector or pause in your power application, starting your power stroke at 11 instead of 1 o'c and ending at 5 o'c, applying the same power at 12 as at 3 o'c, as this video (I hope) demonstrates. Youtube.com Videos - RECORD DELL'ORA: JACQUES ANQUETIL 1967 (AL VIGORELLI) Videos


He looks smooth but that video doesn't really help. 

I'm going to say back to you what I think is the gist of your position: Rather than purely mashing down, riders start pushing the pedals earlier in an attempt to eliminate the "dead spot" at the top of the stroke.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dnc said:


> Pedaling without a dead spot sector or pause in your power application, starting your power stroke at 11 instead of 1 o'c and ending at 5 o'c, applying the same power at 12 as at 3 o'c, as this video (I hope) demonstrates. Youtube.com Videos - RECORD DELL'ORA: JACQUES ANQUETIL 1967 (AL VIGORELLI) Videos


I fail to see how a video from the late 60's of Anquetil demonstrates anything at all about where in his pedal stroke he makes power or not. All it shows is that he pedals somewhat toes down. Big deal. With no "BrimBros" power meter magic there is no way you tell anything from this. 
Isn't that the reason you haven't been able to tell us all how your idea works? If you haven't been able to show proof, then a 46 year old video sure as hell isn't going to prove anything.


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

cxwrench said:


> I fail to see how a video from the late 60's of Anquetil demonstrates anything at all about where in his pedal stroke he makes power or not. All it shows is that he pedals somewhat toes down. Big deal. With no "BrimBros" power meter magic there is no way you tell anything from this.
> Isn't that the reason you haven't been able to tell us all how your idea works? If you haven't been able to show proof, then a 46 year old video sure as hell isn't going to prove anything.


 That video shows what the pedaling looks like to an observer but you are right, even to his team mates it revealed absolutely nothing about his application of torque to the crank because all muscle action is hidden under the skin and that's why he was able to retain his TT pedaling secret throughout his racing years. I have told you how the idea works and where the muscle action and power application takes place, the difficulty arises in trying to explain how this maximal torque is applied through 12 o'c because it happens so fast with a flick of the ankle as it travels up from 5 to 11 o'c and maximal use of the rear end and calf muscles in the simple knack that is used to smoothly apply this additional torque between 11 and 2 o'c. You can't make effective use of the calf muscles if you try to push through 12 o'c. Wait for BrimBros PM to confirm my claim and then the non believers might be interested. It is said if something sounds too good to be true it usually is but in those cases money is nearly always involved, like all other attempts to solve the problem of the dead spot.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dnc said:


> That video shows what the pedaling looks like to an observer but you are right, even to his team mates it revealed absolutely nothing about his application of torque to the crank because all muscle action is hidden under the skin and that's why he was able to retain his TT pedaling secret throughout his racing years. I have told you how the idea works and where the muscle action and power application takes place, the difficulty arises in trying to explain how this maximal torque is applied through 12 o'c because it happens so fast with a flick of the ankle as it travels up from 5 to 11 o'c and maximal use of the rear end and calf muscles in the simple knack that is used to smoothly apply this additional torque between 11 and 2 o'c. You can't make effective use of the calf muscles if you try to push through 12 o'c. Wait for BrimBros PM to confirm my claim and then the non believers might be interested. It is said if something sounds too good to be true it usually is but in those cases money is nearly always involved, like all other attempts to solve the problem of the dead spot.


On 12.26.06 you posted, and I copied this directly: "Fear not, I am not going to waste any more time trying to convert the non believers."
If you could stick to that and stop posting about this until you have your 'proof' I'm sure we'd all be grateful. EVERY single post you've ever made on this forum is about this pedaling technique...I know, I've looked. Maybe if you'd post about something else every now and then we wouldn't think you're the biggest troll since the woman that tried to tell everyone how many times you could wear your shorts in between washings. Or @myhui and his damn chinese frame w/ the crazy steerer. Just participate like a normal member and the not the leader of some wacky cult...that no one knows about.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

dnc said:


> That's easily explained, BrimBros Powermeter was supposed to be ready back then but due to on going problems in perfecting the PM it will not be available until early next year or so we are told. But what type of proof do you need, The PM will supply a graph of torque around the 360 degrees of the pedaling circle and that can be compared with natural pedaling's sinusoidal graph. Then claims forgery will probably appear. Why wait for BrimBros ?, because it is supposed to be the leading PM and is being developed locally, they will be able to do the testing.


Are you talking about short bursts or a traditional 1hr (or more) effort. I ask because I do believe that for short bursts riders will use a more uniform pedaling torque through the 360 degrees. But keeping that up for long rides is another story.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> maximal use of the rear end and calf muscles in the simple knack that is used to smoothly *apply this additional torque between 11 and 2 o'c*. You can't make effective use of the calf muscles if you try to push through 12 o'c.


So the secret is...extended lunch rides?


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

serious said:


> Are you talking about short bursts or a traditional 1hr (or more) effort. I ask because I do believe that for short bursts riders will use a more uniform pedaling torque through the 360 degrees. But keeping that up for long rides is another story.


It would depend on the length of the TT. Each leg applies power for only 180 degrees and leading power leg changes on every count of 3 or 5 depending on cadence, giving recovery time and ensuring each leg applies equal power.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dnc said:


> Pedaling without a dead spot sector or pause in your power application, starting your power stroke at 11 instead of 1 o'c and ending at 5 o'c, applying the same power at 12 as at 3 o'c, as this video (I hope) demonstrates.


What has been (repeatedly) demonstrated is your complete lack of self-awareness. You have been exposed with your nonsense for over a decade. You repeat the same claims with proof "just around the corner" for a decade. You never provide proof. You continue to spout the same BS. Do you completely fail to understand that you have been exposed OVER AND OVER AND OVER again?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> It would depend on the length of the TT. Each leg applies power for only 180 degrees and leading power leg changes on every count of 3 or 5 depending on cadence, giving recovery time and ensuring each leg applies equal power.


I see that you recommended efforts between 11 and 2 o'clock. I can ride during my lunch hour during the week but I prefer an earlier ride on the weekend. 

Will morning rides effect my stroke or must I continue to apply power between 11 and 2?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

dnc said:


> That's easily explained, BrimBros Powermeter was supposed to be ready back then but due to on going problems in perfecting the PM it will not be available until early next year or so we are told. But what type of proof do you need, The PM will supply a graph of torque around the 360 degrees of the pedaling circle and that can be compared with natural pedaling's sinusoidal graph. Then claims forgery will probably appear. Why wait for BrimBros ?, because it is supposed to be the leading PM and is being developed locally, they will be able to do the testing.


There have been many ways of obtaining such force data for over a decade now. There has never been a need to wait for some product to eventually be available to demonstrate what you claim.

End of the day you either produce more power or you don't, and yet no one is magically producing more power. We don't even need force measurement pedals/shoes to tell us that.


Noel's always good for some light comic relief.

Now, where's Frank?


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

Kerry Irons said:


> What has been (repeatedly) demonstrated is your complete lack of self-awareness. You have been exposed with your nonsense for over a decade. You repeat the same claims with proof "just around the corner" for a decade. You never provide proof. You continue to spout the same BS. Do you completely fail to understand that you have been exposed OVER AND OVER AND OVER again?


 Where is the BS in knowing how to apply additional max torque through the dead spot sector ? We are now in the expensive powermeter era of cycling. Where is the proof that a $ 2000 powermeter and endless hours spent studying data will increase your power application in a TT.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> Where is the proof that a $ 2000 powermeter and endless hours spent studying data will increase your power application in a TT.


Slow down, buddy. I was with you when you said to do those long lunch rides. But there are a few things I'd like to point out:

1) Powermeters can be purchased for well under $1000 (from the Stages crank arm to wheels built with powertap hubs).

B) Are you actually arguing against powermeters as effective training tools? With a few sentences I can prescribe a powermeter training plan that should increase TT performance without requiring endless hours of data analysis. First, do a proper FTP test. Next perform 2 X 20 minute and 3 X 20 minute efforts at FTP once a week.


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

Local Hero said:


> Slow down, buddy. I was with you when you said to do those long lunch rides. But there are a few things I'd like to point out:
> 
> 1) Powermeters can be purchased for well under $1000 (from the Stages crank arm to wheels built with powertap hubs).
> 
> B) Are you actually arguing against powermeters as effective training tools? With a few sentences I can prescribe a powermeter training plan that should increase TT performance without requiring endless hours of data analysis. First, do a proper FTP test. Next perform 2 X 20 minute and 3 X 20 minute efforts at FTP once a week.


What a gullible lot cyclists are, structured interval training was perfected long before this equipment appeared. You would not see Obree using this equipment, he uses only what gives results. They may be cheaper but the most gullible want only the most expensive.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

dnc said:


> Where is the BS in knowing how to apply additional max torque through the dead spot sector ?


It is called "dead spot" for a reason. You are asking people to use a lot of effort to produce torque in a zone where the output power will be very poor relative to the effort put in. Good luck keeping that up for long rides.


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

serious said:


> It is called "dead spot" for a reason. You are asking people to use a lot of effort to produce torque in a zone where the output power will be very poor relative to the effort put in. Good luck keeping that up for long rides.



From the effort you use in that zone, with this special technique you are getting exactly the same torque as you get at 3 o'c and the same applies at 1 and 2 o'c.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dnc said:


> From the effort you use in that zone, with this special technique you are getting exactly the same torque as you get at 3 o'c and the same applies at 1 and 2 o'c.


Could you just do all of us a favor and go away til you have your 'proof'? Like you said you would in '06? Please...or find another forum to troll. Anything, just give it a rest.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

dnc said:


> What a gullible lot cyclists are, structured interval training was perfected long before this equipment appeared. You would not see Obree using this equipment, he uses only what gives results. They may be cheaper but the most gullible want only the most expensive.


I don't know much about Obree's training, nor do I really care, but if he trained without a power meter and the technology existed at the time, it was his loss. There's really nothing to be lost by training with power, only gained. Maybe not much to gain, but still.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

dnc said:


> Where is the BS in knowing how to apply additional max torque through the dead spot sector ? We are now in the expensive powermeter era of cycling. Where is the proof that a $ 2000 powermeter and endless hours spent studying data will increase your power application in a TT.


Noel, if the technique results in so much more power, then that would be easily verifiable with any good power meter. It wouldn't even need a $2000 power meter, a $250 second had powertap would do this perfectly well.

Yet not once has this technique been applied to someone using a power meter to uncover such a rich vein of new performance potential. Never, nil, zip, nada.

The fact that you then proceed to rubbish the very instrument that would objectively measure the outcome of such a training intervention speaks volumes. 

As W.E. Deming once said, "In God we trust, everyone else bring data".


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

dnc said:


> From the effort you use in that zone, with this special technique you are getting exactly the same torque as you get at 3 o'c and the same applies at 1 and 2 o'c.


That is like saying that with the right technique one can be as strong in leg extensions as he is in leg presses, to use one rather relevant analogy. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> What a gullible lot cyclists are, structured interval training was perfected long before this equipment appeared. You would not see Obree using this equipment, he uses only what gives results. They may be cheaper but the most gullible want only the most expensive.


Has anyone been able to beat Obree?

I'm curious about this because I don't actually train with a powermeter. I go by perceived exertion and have learned to monitor my breathing. Also, I use a watch on climbs but there are other factors, like how much water is in my bottle and which way the wind is blowing. 

I am tempted to get a PM because I know it will be much more precise than how I feel. It eliminates variables. 


Can you talk about how I can perfect my intervals?


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

serious said:


> That is like saying that with the right technique one can be as strong in leg extensions as he is in leg presses, to use one rather relevant analogy. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.


Sorry to disappoint you but completely different and many more muscles are used than those used in leg extensions.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but completely different and many more muscles are used than those used in leg extensions.


What if the leg extensions are done in the middle of the day, between 11 and 2 o'clock?


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

dnc said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but completely different and many more muscles are used than those used in leg extensions.


Not disappointed, only amused. I gave an *analogy* so I expect you to be able to imagine the similarity, not to tell me about the differences.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> What if the leg extensions are done in the middle of the day, between 11 and 2 o'clock?


Then you might be able to achieve the same maximums as you would with leg presses after 3:00PM. It is a miracle!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I just hope he posts some solid evidence on this "apply the power between 11 and 2" stuff, I want to explain to my clients why I take such long lunch breaks.


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

So much of a smooth pedal stroke comes from seat position and cleat/insole fit. When you have these factors right, you don't have to think about smoothing your stroke.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)




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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

serious said:


> Not disappointed, only amused. I gave an *analogy* so I expect you to be able to imagine the similarity, not to tell me about the differences.


 If you want an analogy, the muscles used are identical and used in a similar manner to those used in the sport of indoor tug o'war, after that it's all about correct bike set-up and position.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> If you want an analogy, the muscles used are identical and used in a similar manner to those used in the sport of indoor tug o'war, after that it's all about correct bike set-up and position.


What time of the day is the tug o'war waged? 

Also, you mentioned that tug o'war is an indoor sport. In my youth we played it during lunch our, only outdoors. Does this make any difference?


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dnc said:


> Where is the BS in knowing how to apply additional max torque through the dead spot sector?


The absolute and uncontestable BS is that you have NEVER been able to demonstrate this claim. You have been saying for more than a decade that you would demonstrate it "soon" and have never presented a scintilla of evidence. This is where your complete lack of self-awareness rears its nasty head. You are apparently incapable of realizing that you have been shown a charlatan over and over and over again and yet you continue to spout this nonsense as though no one had ever shown you to be a fraud. That is the amazing thing about Noel Crowley.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

dnc said:


> If you want an analogy, the muscles used are identical and used in a similar manner to those used in the sport of indoor tug o'war, after that it's all about correct bike set-up and position.


Have you no idea how close a leg extension (at the bottom of the movement) is to the tug of war analogy you are giving? And while this motion is definitely stronger than the "wipe your feet" idiocy, it still falls short. 

My point is that you are kidding yourself if you think this effort can come anywhere near the "leg pressing" effort in the power zone of the pedalling circle. Not to mention how much faster you will fatigue when making the effort you describe. You really think none of us ever thought about these things?


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

serious said:


> Have you no idea how close a leg extension (at the bottom of the movement) is to the tug of war analogy you are giving? And while this motion is definitely stronger than the "wipe your feet" idiocy, it still falls short.
> 
> My point is that you are kidding yourself if you think this effort can come anywhere near the "leg pressing" effort in the power zone of the pedalling circle. Not to mention how much faster you will fatigue when making the effort you describe. You really think none of us ever thought about these things?


I said " INDOOR TUG O'WAR ", there is a difference. Here maximal use is made of the ankle and lower leg muscles, in the leg extension exercise almost no use is made of these. Actually on the bike the combination of muscles used in my technique between 11- 2 can be more powerful and less stressfui on muscles because it's all about the resistance that can be used. When you are applying pedal force at 3 o'c you are using indirect resistance from the weight of your body which has to travel from your hip to your knee before it can be used, this is very stressful on the thigh muscles whereas resistance used between 11-2 travels directly stress free from hip to ankle. I'm certain nobody thinks about these things and Kerry keeps telling everyone it's a waste of training time to do so.


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## dnc (Feb 8, 2003)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> There have been many ways of obtaining such force data for over a decade now. There has never been a need to wait for some product to eventually be available to demonstrate what you claim.
> 
> End of the day you either produce more power or you don't, and yet no one is magically producing more power. We don't even need force measurement pedals/shoes to tell us that.
> 
> ...



Frank is banned from the " Cyclingnews " forum because he asked for proof as to how powermeter training improved performance.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dnc said:


> Frank is banned from the " Cyclingnews " forum because he asked for proof as to how powermeter training improved performance.


Sounds like you and Frank should start up your own little forum. Maybe you could include some conspiracy theorists and flat earth society members.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

dnc said:


> I said " INDOOR TUG O'WAR ", there is a difference. Here maximal use is made of the ankle and lower leg muscles, in the leg extension exercise almost no use is made of these. Actually on the bike the combination of muscles used in my technique between 11- 2 can be more powerful and less stressfui on muscles because it's all about the resistance that can be used. When you are applying pedal force at 3 o'c you are using indirect resistance from the weight of your body which has to travel from your hip to your knee before it can be used, this is very stressful on the thigh muscles whereas resistance used between 11-2 travels directly stress free from hip to ankle. I'm certain nobody thinks about these things and Kerry keeps telling everyone it's a waste of training time to do so.


Kerry says that because it indeed is a waste of time. You are ALONE in this thinking and there is a reason for it. But I will let you guess the reason.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dnc said:


> I said " INDOOR TUG O'WAR ", there is a difference. Here maximal use is made of the ankle and lower leg muscles, in the leg extension exercise almost no use is made of these. Actually on the bike the combination of muscles used in my technique between 11- 2 can be more powerful and less stressfui on muscles because it's all about the resistance that can be used. When you are applying pedal force at 3 o'c you are using indirect resistance from the weight of your body which has to travel from your hip to your knee before it can be used, this is very stressful on the thigh muscles whereas resistance used between 11-2 travels directly stress free from hip to ankle. I'm certain nobody thinks about these things and Kerry keeps telling everyone it's a waste of training time to do so.


You're completely missing my point Noel. What I'm saying is that for more than a decade you've been telling us that you will soon have proof that this works. You have never produced that proof. You have no proof. You have no evidence. If you had it you would show it. On current trends you never will have any proof or evidence, but you WILL keep making these claims.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

dnc said:


> I said " INDOOR TUG O'WAR ", there is a difference. Here maximal use is made of the ankle and lower leg muscles, in the leg extension exercise almost no use is made of these.


 Which ankle muscles in particular? 

I just inspected my ankles and could not find much muscle mass muscles at all. I know there are a few muscles in there but do they really help with pedaling?


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