# BWW Blackset Race - a year later



## Svooterz (Jul 29, 2006)

Well well, I've written my thoughts about the Blackset Race in the thread "BWW Blackset Race - review to come soon", but they were mostly initial impressions/early reviews.

I'll have to say that a year later, with perhaps 2000 miles and a crit on these wheels, everything I said and expected about these wheels holds true.. Just to keep things in perspective, I want to remind you all that I'm a light guy. My weight oscillates between 140 and 145 pounds, so the clides out there might want another point of view... But anyway, here's my summary :

-The finish of the wheel is very nice. The rim's anodizing is as well done as anything from the big manufacturers, the hubs are nice and and the wheels are well built. They were true out of the box and have stayed true despite much abuse. And the finish still looks good, too!

-The wheels have very good lateral stiffness. They inspire confidence in cornering. I can throw everything I've got at them and they don't flex in corners, unlike my Easton Vista SL's. I was glad to have them under me in the last crit I've been to.

-There's no perceptible deflection under power. Even though I keep my brake pads within a millimeter of the rim, I've never had the wheels rub against the brakes, not even when grinding big gears on hard climbs.

-The hubs still spin very smoothly, even more so than when I opened the box. Nothing surprising there, it would've been a severe flaw if it had been otherwise...

-The aluminium cassette body does get gouged by individual sprockets. At a certain point, it stops, but it makes changing cassettes a bit of a pain. The 19t sprocket on my 11-26 cassette, in particular, left a pretty big mark in the soft aluminium...

-Under a lightweight guy, these are friggin' bulletproof, much more than I ever expect. I've used them as my main wheels during both fall and spring... and they've endured the crap that daily-use wheels have to face. I've hit potholdes, railways, uneven road surfaces and gravel roads without any problem. Better yet, I had a crash where my front tire was destroyed, but the front wheel was STILL true. I was outright impressed.

Bottom line, these are awesome wheels for the money. Since last year, the wheels have changed in name and price : BWW now calls them "Blackset Race Ten 1451g" and offers them at 329$ rather than 275$, but I believe they're still an incredible value at that price. I'm just glad I didn't wait and got them at last year's price


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

My findings exactly except for two differences - approx three months of use from me and my 170lbs. A true bargain especially compared to Boutique wheels which are almost always heavier and certainly always more money.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

what's the opinion of the hubs? is the rear wider spaced than an American classics hub?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cmg said:


> what's the opinion of the hubs?


They're working for me.



> is the rear wider spaced than an American classics hub?


I don't have a clue.


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## Svooterz (Jul 29, 2006)

cmg said:


> what's the opinion of the hubs? is the rear wider spaced than an American classics hub?


The ratcheting mechanism is solid. It uses 6 steel pawls and they engage real fast. I haven't counted the number of engagement points, but it's at least 18 and possibly more. And yes, the flanges are more widely spaced than AM Classic hubs. The flange spacing makes for a good bracing angle and results in a laterally stiff wheel. The hub has 4 cartridge bearings and it's claimed weight is 241 grams - not bad!

The front hub also has widely spaced flanges, it's super light (claimed at 70 grams) and it rolls well. The hub shell's diameter is much larger at the bearings than the AC hubs so they presumably use larger and more durable bearings. I'd need to verify what size they are, but anyway, I've got no prob so far and I'm convinced they'll last for a while.

All in all, it's a very solid set of hubs. I honestly doubt you can get much better hubs without paying as much for a pair of hubs as you would for the complete BWW wheelset.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Svooterz said:


> All in all, it's a very solid set of hubs. I honestly doubt you can get much better hubs without paying as much for a pair of hubs as you would for the complete BWW wheelset.


I was just talking about this same fact this morning. The BWW Blackset Race wheels are $330.

For an article I'm writing I just got some hub prices for the "really good" hubs. They are -
DT240 - $510.
Dura Ace 7900 - $540.
White Industries - $395.
Chris King R45 - $498.
(I trolled a few mailorder sites for those prices. I'm sure prices vary).

I'd be a fool to claim that the BWW hubs were as "good" as any of the above hubs but when you can get a whole wheelset for less than their price *and* for it to be a good performing wheelset (mine are)......well, I'm just sayin'.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I should relate a near catastrophe that I had with my BWW Race wheels on Saturday. I was on a 100km organized ride and I was whizzing down a hill and across a river bridge at about 30-40mph. I didn't see a good size pothole on the bridge and I hit it head-on. "BUNNNNGGGGG" chimed the front wheel as the tire bottomed out and the rim contacted the hole. Something flew off my bike with the impact. I braked to a halt fearing exploded tire or wrecked rim and found neither. What jettisoned from the bike because of the impact was a large full waterbottle. I retraced and couldn't find the bottle and assumed it went off the bridge into the river. I was left with just an empty bottle on a 90 degree day. Luckily a rest & refuel stop was five miles up the road.

The force of the blow was enough to swivel my (correctly torqued) handlebars down.

I didn't feel any brake pulsing on the remainder of the ride so I assumed there was no rim sidewall damage. I checked the rim properly when I got home and it's just fine. The wheel is still dead true.

The specs are -
BWW Blackset Race rim (advertised at 383 grams)
24 spoke front wheel, radial, CX-ray.
My weight - 170lbs.

BWW - an incredibly strong wheelset for its 1410 gram weight.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> I should relate a near catastrophe that I had with my BWW Race wheels on Saturday. I was on a 100km organized ride and I was whizzing down a hill and across a river bridge at about 30-40mph. I didn't see a good size pothole on the bridge and I hit it head-on. "BUNNNNGGGGG" chimed the front wheel as the tire bottomed out and the rim contacted the hole. Something flew off my bike with the impact. I braked to a halt fearing exploded tire or wrecked rim and found neither. What jettisoned from the bike because of the impact was a large full waterbottle. I retraced and couldn't find the bottle and assumed it went off the bridge into the river. I was left with just an empty bottle on a 90 degree day. Luckily a rest & refuel stop was five miles up the road.
> 
> The force of the blow was enough to swivel my (correctly torqued) handlebars down.
> 
> ...


  Holy crap! I must say that is quite impressive. I am surprised you didn't fall from the bars moving like that. Sounds to me like you need to clamp down those bars just a tad more.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Holy crap! I must say that is quite impressive. I am surprised you didn't fall from the bars moving like that. Sounds to me like you need to clamp down those bars just a tad more.


I was lucky I didn't crash. I was on the brake hoods so that's what contributed to the bar swiveling. The stem is a Thomson torqued to its correct specs and the bars have never moved until this blow.


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## Svooterz (Jul 29, 2006)

Svooterz said:


> I haven't counted the number of engagement points, but it's at least 18 and possibly more.


OK I have counted the number of engagement points. 20 clicks before the freehub returns to it's original position. Nothing exceptional, but not bad...


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## mcsqueak (Apr 22, 2010)

OK, here's a question for you wheel builders related to this:

Say I don't have a ton of cash right now, so I purchase a set of BWW wheels just for the quality/price ratio. Maybe a year or two later I have money burning a hole in my pocket, and I *REALLY* want a nice set of hubs for the wheels, just for the extra bling factor or whatnot.

How hard is it to lace new hubs into an existing wheel? Does it involve replacing all the spokes? Is this impractical or do people do this often?

I don't think I'd really have this done, I'm more curious than anything.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mcsqueak said:


> How hard is it to lace new hubs into an existing wheel?


How hard? There's no way to quantify that. Just read up on wheelbuilding and go for it. The info is in my sig, especially in the links at the end.



> Does it involve replacing all the spokes?


The best answer I can give is "probably". There's only one way to know - put the hub and rim specs into a spoke calculator, figure out what's needed and compare the length to what you have. Then you know. 



> Is this impractical or do people do this often?


Sure it's practical if you decide that it's the best for you.



> I don't think I'd really have this done, I'm more curious than anything.


Maybe I wish I had read this sentence first then.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Anybody have a real world picture of the BWW Race on a bike...can't really tell what they look like on their website. Is there any bling factor or are they pretty much plain Jane in the looks department? It's not foremost in my criteria, but it helps  

**


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Erion929 said:


> Anybody have a real world picture of the BWW Race on a bike...can't really tell what they look like on their website. Is there any bling factor or are they pretty much plain Jane in the looks department? It's not foremost in my criteria, but it helps
> **


Bling? Errr no. They're not into that. I think BWW would be honored by the phrase "plain Jane".


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Ah, thanks Mike! Wow, nice bike :thumbsup: ....just needs a red sticker on the wheels! Oops, nevermind :blush2: 

The wheels sure seem like a great bang for buck...

**


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Erion929 said:


> ....just needs a red sticker on the wheels!


Maybe your post will shame 'em into it


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## Svooterz (Jul 29, 2006)

Erion929 said:


> Anybody have a real world picture of the BWW Race on a bike...can't really tell what they look like on their website. Is there any bling factor or are they pretty much plain Jane in the looks department? It's not foremost in my criteria, but it helps
> 
> **


For a few months, I didn't have access to a camera, but now I do. I'll take some pics of the wheels on my bike & post them online. Trust me on this, red nipples do add a bit of bling...


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Ok, cool....thanks :thumbsup: 

P.S. Don't tell Mike  

**


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## ncsu (Dec 28, 2008)

So....I'm about to pull the trigger on this wheelset....Any reason why I should *NOT* get it? You guys have given that wheelset some good reviews, but do you wish you had gotten a different set instead? I'm looking to increase my climbing ability and keep a somewhat stiff wheelset for sprinting. They will replace my 2100 gram Mavic CXP22's.

And what's so special about the Sapim-CX Ray spokes? Are they worth another $145? Lighter? Stiffer?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ncsu said:


> And what's so special about the Sapim-CX Ray spokes? Are they worth another $145? Lighter? Stiffer?


They're one of the three lightest spokes. They are forged aero from Sapim Lazer spokes (2.0/1.5/2.0mm) which are the same diameters as DT Revolution spokes. Whether they are worth the upcharge is your decision. I use them (3-4 wheelsets) and I have some wheelsets without them (4 sets). I can't tell a difference in stiffness or speed but then with the small increments of speed that they would potentially provide there are other bigger forces that would change things.

I'll tell ya one thing that is a dead cert - the chicks dig 'em. That's good enough for me. I need all the help I can get.


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## eecc (Jul 12, 2010)

Are the hubs serviceable at all? how do they compare to 105 or ultegra hubs??


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

eecc said:


> Are the hubs serviceable at all?


Oh for sure. To re-grease the ratchety bits takes but a few seconds and without any tools. The sealed cartridge bearings can be tapped out and replaced - they will be available through any automotive parts supplier.



> how do they compare to 105 or ultegra hubs?


They're different animals altogether. Quality-wise I'd say they're about the same.

The Shimano hubs -
Are loose ball, cone and cup. Adjustable with cone wrenches. If the cups wear out then the hubs are junk. To properly lubricate the freehub unit you'll need a Morningstar Freehub Buddy. 
They're heavier than the BWW Blackset hubs.

The BWW hubs -
Are sealed cartridge bearings. Replaceable. Lubing the ratchety bits is a tooless, quick operation.


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## Becky (Jun 15, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> The sealed cartridge bearings can be tapped out and replaced - they will be available through any automotive parts supplier.


What about ceramic hybrid upgrades? 

BTW, I had no idea that these bearings were so readily available....thanks for that tidbit. What would I search for to buy replacements?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Becky said:


> What about ceramic hybrid upgrades?


That would be a massive diminished return on money spent. Do some homework before you consider investing and don't believe hype.



> BTW, I had no idea that these bearings were so readily available....thanks for that tidbit. What would I search for to buy replacements?


It could be that BWW can supply them but I've never read of that fact. On the bearing unit itself there is a part number which you will need to order new ones. Auto parts suppliers like NAPA (and many others) will have them or can order them. Mine will get them overnight.


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## Becky (Jun 15, 2004)

Thanks for the info, Mike.

I doubt that I would buy ceramics- just more info to consider. I'm one of those 'research intensive" types....

These keep floating to the top of the list....


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## tojnom (Feb 29, 2008)

*If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is...*



Svooterz said:


> Well well, I've written my thoughts about the Blackset Race in the thread "BWW Blackset Race - review to come soon", but they were mostly initial impressions/early reviews.
> 
> I'll have to say that a year later, with perhaps 2000 miles and a crit on these wheels, everything I said and expected about these wheels holds true.. Just to keep things in perspective, I want to remind you all that I'm a light guy. My weight oscillates between 140 and 145 pounds, so the clides out there might want another point of view... But anyway, here's my summary :
> 
> ...


I purchased this wheelset about three weeks ago. I've built about 15 wheelsets but after lurking on RBR and the web, I thought this might be a "diamond in the rough". Out of the box the rear wheel had 3 significant hops. Fortunately, I managed to repair the hops and keep things dished without too much of a hassle. Then after about 6 or 7 rides, I checked trueness on the front wheel and it was laterally 7-8 mm off - in other words pretty bad. 

Hate to be the bad guy here, but I'm not impressed with wheel build quality. Granted Sapim spokes with aluminum nipples are slightly more challenging, but they should be laterally and radially true out of the box. Next time, I'll build my own with good old DT Swiss Competition 2.0/1.8 spokes and brass nipples, maybe aluminum. Live and Learn...weight isn't everything if you have to check trueness every other ride. IMHO, I'd think long and hard before purchasing from BWW again.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tojnom said:


> the front wheel and it was laterally 10mm off.


Ten millimeters? That's 3/8". How the heck did that wheel rotate between the brake pads? Did you contact BWW on this?


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## tojnom (Feb 29, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> Ten millimeters? That's 3/8". How the heck did that wheel rotate between the brake pads? Did you contact BWW on this?


I didn't contact BWW because it seemed pretty late in the game. After 200 miles of rides, what's the protocol? It might not of been quite 10mm, but it was definitely 6 or 7mm.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tojnom said:


> I didn't contact BWW because it seemed pretty late in the game. After 200 miles of rides, what's the protocol? It might not of been quite 10mm, but it was definitely 6 or 7mm.


You wrote "Out of the box the rear wheel had 3 significant hops. Fortunately, I managed to repair the hops and keep things dished without too much of a hassle. Then after about 6 or 7 rides, I checked trueness on the front wheel and it was laterally 7-8 mm off - in other words pretty bad. Hate to be the bad guy here, but I'm not impressed with wheel build quality........I didn't contact BWW because it seemed pretty late in the game.....after 200 miles of rides......."

I find it incredible that you wouldn't contact BWW with your findings but would prefer to soak it up and post your findings here. I've never had to use their warranty, as 5 sets of BWW wheels that have passed through my hands (they weren't all for me) have been perfect, but I'll bet BWW would bend over backwards if only to learn what had gone wrong with their wheels.


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## tojnom (Feb 29, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> You wrote "Out of the box the rear wheel had 3 significant hops. Fortunately, I managed to repair the hops and keep things dished without too much of a hassle. Then after about 6 or 7 rides, I checked trueness on the front wheel and it was laterally 7-8 mm off - in other words pretty bad. Hate to be the bad guy here, but I'm not impressed with wheel build quality........I didn't contact BWW because it seemed pretty late in the game.....after 200 miles of rides......."
> 
> I find it incredible that you wouldn't contact BWW with your findings but would prefer to soak it up and post your findings here. I've never had to use their warranty, as 5 sets of BWW wheels that have passed through my hands (they weren't all for me) have been perfect, but I'll bet BWW would bend over backwards if only to learn what had gone wrong with their wheels.


Fair argument. I'll call them tomorrow and see what they have to say. Hopefully they will take care of the issue, because if they don't they've lost a customer and I'd be more than willing to post it here. Stay tuned!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tojnom said:


> Fair argument. I'll call them tomorrow and see what they have to say. Hopefully they will take care of the issue, because if they don't they've lost a customer and I'd be more than willing to post it here. Stay tuned!


I can't imagine any wheelbuilder that would be willing to rectify issues that appeared after you "trying to remove the hops". You said they were new wheels out of the box and instead of giving them a chance to fix the issue, you took it into your own hands. And then, when wobbles appeared after 200 miles (a week, two weeks, a month?) you still didn't contact them "because it seemed pretty late in the game". I guess so. I think you assumed responsibility for these wheels when you touched them with a wrench. And you're "more than willing to post it here" if they don't fix you up?

Yes it would be a major inconvenience to return new wheels the day they arrive but $hit happens and the credibility of any vendor is not in *what* happens but *how* they deal with it. I can't wait for your next slam against them.

They must build thousands of wheels in a year and I'll bet BWW's Chris can quote their failure percentage. I can count the number of complaints against them on this site and MTBR.com easily on the fingers of one hand over the past two years.


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## tojnom (Feb 29, 2008)

_"I think you assumed responsibility for these wheels when you touched them with a wrench. And you're "more than willing to post it here" if they don't fix you up?

Yes it would be a major inconvenience to return new wheels the day they arrive but $hit happens and the credibility of any vendor is not in *what* happens but *how* they deal with it. I can't wait for your next slam against them."_

I absolutely assumed responsibility b/c I didn't have a backup wheelset at the time. I wasn't going to wait two weeks for another wheelset. I paid $500 for the wheels and they should have been true or close to being true. To be honest, three hops in the rear wheel seemed somewhat careless. How does that get overlooked before sending them out? 

That's great that they have a consistent positive track record, but I was unfortunately a customer that didn't have a great experience. Of course I would post my experience on RBR, that's what forums are for - good experiences, bad experiences, and anything in between. I really don't have any intention of "slamming" them again, I'm just a little disappointed after reading all the great reviews...


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## Weav (Jun 21, 2009)

I appreciate a nice yard as much as a nice wheel. Nice Yard MikeT.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Weav said:


> I appreciate a nice yard as much as a nice wheel. Nice Yard MikeT.


Thanks! The growing stuff is the domain of Momma T and the raised beds were the work of yours truly.


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## Hula Hoop (Feb 4, 2009)

I also got a pair over a year ago, guy told me hubs were Fulcrum and replacement
bearings were available, but I got the impression BWW was not in the business of
providing replacements. Mine have also functioned very well, been in true, plenty
snappy and rigid. I also hit a pothole with my rear wheel, in my case so hard the rear
water bottle jettisoned, came down between the spokes, destroyed my Cateye sensor,
and knocked the wheels out a little. LBS fixed and no other issues. In fairness to the 
wheels, it was a very hard impact, enough to crack my seaststay. Check their website
the 385 gram rim is no longer being offered, now it is 415 grams


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I think BWW will supply bearings if needed.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Any LBS will be able to get you bearings, if they don't have them in stock


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

masont said:


> Any LBS will be able to get you bearings, if they don't have them in stock


You can buy or order them at any auto parts supply place. They will be just standard sealed bearings.


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## Sente (Aug 5, 2009)

*Blackset Race*

Wheels have worked out very well for me; enough to trust on my 2011 Madone 6.2. Weighs in at under 15 lbs.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qqcArTZJkpffI7HQsqsap4xzu48G5K1OtVcabwuS0vg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_OwpjgXAG6JM/TUXsVrVDKJI/AAAAAAAAB0Y/blY3XgqmFb8/s144/1-IMG_6697.JPG" height="81" width="144" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/107161820047803741723/TrekMadone622011?authkey=Gv1sRgCNGLm6Oj4rq9Hg&feat=embedwebsite">Trek Madone 6.2 2011</a></td></tr></table>


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