# Litespeed.."Arenberg" why so flexy?



## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Last summer i picked up a very gently used Litespeed "arenberg" frameset in 60cm.,have always wanted a litespeed frame to build up since the 90's,but as we all know they have always been quite pricey.
Anyway i now have this frameset al built up with brand new shimano (ultegra) gruppo in frost gray and all of that is spectacular.Oh yeah i forgot to mention that the wheelset was thrown in as extra towards the difference in value to value on a trade of a guitar...both parties are happy with the deal. The first initial ride was not jawdropping like i may have been building it up to be.I have come off riding a "05" Felt F2c and the change is quite different,but in fairness i should give it this full summers attention and see what happens.It seems this Ti frame is a bit flexy,whether it's from the bottom bracket area or the Mavic(cosmic elites) or just the fact that @ 220#'s maybe more spokes are in order...don't know!...somewhere i heard that the arenberg frameset was a entry-level frameset for those looking to get into a Litespeed on the cheap...don't know!....this frameset was such a good trade for deal i could'nt pass it up and i surely don't feel like it's a pile of @#$% afterall it is a Litespeed....love the satin finish offset with gray components.Just like to get some of your opinions on this frameset as a complete bike....sorry to long wind it!!....and thanxs in advance!


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## rebel1916 (Aug 4, 2007)

Ti frames are flexy, homey. Twice the weight of aluminum, half the strength of steel.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Damn!...homey. I thought it was the other way around,but it looks "spectacular and it is Real"...that may explain why my 90's Schwinn 960 racer was rock solid in the flex dept. That may also explain why Litespeed now makes a pile of carbon bikes.
I figured if Ti. was good enough in jet fighters,why not flying down some blacktop.
Could it be how they are welded up?


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## rebel1916 (Aug 4, 2007)

Spinman said:


> Damn!...homey. I thought it was the other way around,but it looks "spectacular and it is Real"...that may explain why my 90's Schwinn 960 racer was rock solid in the flex dept. That may also explain why Litespeed now makes a pile of carbon bikes.
> I figured if Ti. was good enough in jet fighters,why not flying down some blacktop.
> Could it be how they are welded up?


Nah, Ti is known to be flexy. I'm sure it could be eliminated with oversize tubing, but that look doesn't appeal to the demo that buys Ti. The flex isn't making you any slower though, so just ride it and see if you start to like it...


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Thanxs Rebel..dude.Oh ride it i will!


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

If I am not mistaken the Arenberg was made to be flexy. Arenberg is a section of cobble stones in the Paris Roubaix. So the Arenberg bike was made to be smooth over the rough stuff.

Iconic Places: The Forest of Arenberg | Cycle Sport


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

rebel1916 said:


> Ti frames are flexy, homey. Twice the weight of aluminum, half the strength of steel.


Gross exageration. Titanium is ~170% the density of aluminium, and ~80% the strength of steel, giving it the highest strength to weight ratio of any metal. Whether a titanium frame is flexy or not depends on how it was designed. My own Ti frame is rather stiff.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Let's see:

- older, "lightly used" Ti frame: check 
- made by Litespeed: check
- rider weighs 220lbs: check

Noodle-city, dude! You hit all the important milestones. Hells yeah it's gonna flex!


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Well i'm sure as hell not going to run the cobbles of the arenberg forest anytime soon so i'll will try and give it a go and "Love it,or List it.
thanxs all!!!


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Because titanium is less dense than steel, it will flex more if the tube diameters are equal. The same is true of carbon, which is why your Felt F2c has tubes much larger than the Arenberg's. Increasing the diameter of the F2c's tubes greatly improves it's resistance to flex.

Your wheels aren't the problem.

As long as the flex doesn't cause handling issues or ghost shifting, you should be fine but yeah; at 220lbs. that frame is kind of underbuilt for you.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I had a Litespeed Classic back in the 90's. When I was a 185# racer, the 60cm frame was stiff enough, it was not as stiff as the Raleigh 753 it replaced, but my riding style at the time was to look for a break away or take a flyer with 1-2K remaining. After I got married and settled down a little, I got up to 225# and it was a completely different riding bike, a noodle. I ended up selling it in 98 and buying a Merckx MX Leader.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

There's a good chance i'll be going back to carbon fiber unless someone has a terrific alternative to this frameset, but i had such high expectations for this bike. oh well the search goes on. How about a Serrota in ti. or combo with carbon fiber?...i'm kinda bummed,no actually really bummed!...should'a done better homework. I will work it out!...just believed these Ti. bikes were the @#%&.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

You bought the 'wrong' bike. The Arenberg was designed to be sort of a rough-road, all day bike, not a sprinter or climber. There are plenty of Ti bikes that aren't 'flexy', though that's a relative term. Flex, in and of itself, isn't bad but your perception of the Litespeed is colored by your experience with your Felt.





Spinman said:


> There's a good chance i'll be going back to carbon fiber unless someone has a terrific alternative to this frameset, but i had such high expectations for this bike. oh well the search goes on. How about a Serrota in ti. or combo with carbon fiber?...i'm kinda bummed,no actually really bummed!...should'a done better homework. I will work it out!...just believed these Ti. bikes were the @#%&.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Dave...you hit all the marks right and also i had this desire since the 90's to own a Litespeed,but not taking into consideration that some of the frame types were rider specific.This frameset came along at the right time for some of the wrong reasons. I basically use this bike as a commuter in ptld. and have not yet taken it on a long ride where it is believed to be a better bike. Maybe a real stout set of wheels will stiffen things up some....other than that it's a helluva bike!
selling it in the event i just can't deal with some of the issues is not a problem,just hate to see the money invested disappear.
Are the Serrotta Ti./carbon frames worth a look at?
Thanxs to all for your input..........love the forum!


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## Micra (Aug 19, 2011)

Tennb


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Yeah!...but everywhere you look these days all you see are carbon bikes.I just wanted to stay old school awhile longer and get the stare of WOW! from all the carbon kids out there that don't see Titanium bikes much.Besides this bike i have does'nt get beat on hardly at all,but it's nice to know that when the goin gets tuff i'll arrive with my fillings still intact.......stll lookin for some Serrotta love!
Thanxs everybody!


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

Spinman, as good as Serotta are and and much as I really like Serottas, you may run into the same problem as with the Litespeed. Your weight puts you at a fair disadvantage when it comes to buying used bikes, even high-end makes. The average customer at, say, Serotta isn't 220# and if the bike was made for a lighter rider (most likely) you're sort of back at square 1.

I'd tell you to borrow a set of stiff wheels and put them on your Litespeed to what kind of difference they make. It may be just the ticket. Or you could learn how to ride the Litespeed like it was intended to be ridden. You shouldn't really compare it to your Felt; two different bikes for two different purposes.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

The comparison to the felt is not a fair one it was just a comparison.You are right about learning to ride the bike to it's potential and limitations and maybe somewhere down the road i just won't give it a second thought...maybe!..the wheels on it now are Mavic cosmic elites w/bladed spokes and still very true.But just with this forums input on the subject i've come to the realization that i will adjust my riding style to the bike,not the other way around...so if you have a good suggestion of wheels,spoke count,hubs,carbon clincher kinda stuff,or not aero at all,that would be some good ammo for my search....actually the guy i got the mavic's from is my wgt.also and said...he did'nt have a problem with either wheels or bike.Maybe he too had to adjust his riding style to the bike. I may in my travels take this bike over some not so friendly blacktop and see if the ride is as compliant as it was intended for.
It just such a sweet looking bike that in hind sight i was hoping it to deliver in all catagories,but i do realize some not all bikes can be one dimensional...i'll be fine and drop some LB's in the process........thx's


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I think the idea of the importance of "stiffness" has been oversold by bike companies looking to justify a sale. Bikes are going to feel different and if you are riding carbon bikes you are going to be used to the feel of a carbon bike. That doesn't mean the Litespeed isn't performing just as well. See how it feels after a while. You may like what it does for you further down the road.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

I believe you are right about the marketing of bikes,you know: this bike is stiff yet compliant over rough roads,and this bike does that. It's a sales ploy to a point. Everybody wants a certain color or a certain kind of components,what does the bike weigh...etc. Like myself,i was looking for a litespeed to give me a more stiffer ride,but as a general bike enthusiast and commuter i believe that this bike with maybe a stouter set of wheels may stiffin it up a bit....any suggestions on said wheels would help....thxs.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Trying to make this feel stiffer will only diminish the good things about it's ride. Ti is sought after because it makes comfortable riding frames. This is your all-day cruiser and nasty weather bike. A sprinter, it will never be but why would anyone who isn't a criterium specialist want that?


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

You are correct sir! It is a bike i can learn to live with afterall any thoughts of becoming a criterium racer or sprinter went out the door back when i was 30yrs young,now 56 and still lovin riding we just commute and try to keep up with the young lungs,,Ha! ha!..can't and won't make it do something it can't. I'm good with that!
Takin it for a spin..man!


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## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

I just bought a Serotta Colorado Ti - probably mid 90s. I weigh 226 and took it for a spin today. No flex here. I am no sprinter or a climber, but it had a sweet ride to it. I don't have nor have I ridden a full carbon frame bike. I have no desire to either. I am 58 YO and not inclined to race. I ride for fitness and pleasure.

YMMV


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

We are the same age and have the same approach to riding,if it ain't enjoyable...move on to something else.Those are sweet rides from serotta,the only other Ti. bike i would consider...besides when you go on a ride and someone pulls up to you or you draft them and slide on by and they see that Ti. bike you are on,they take that everybody's got one carbon bike of theirs and head for the titanium dealer.....well we can only hope!......easy carbon dudes & dudet's no offense,i happen to still like carbon.
Great thing about america....we are all different and have a plethora of choices.
Pretty cool!.......enjoy that Serotta my man!
Happy Trails!


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Spinman said:


> r...besides when you go on a ride and someone pulls up to you or you draft them and slide on by and they see that Ti. bike you are on,they take that everybody's got one carbon bike of theirs and head for the titanium dealer....


Har! There's an equally likely (perhaps more likely) chance they'll think, look at that Luddite dork on the Ti bike... just sayin'.

I have a Ti bike, really like it, and it's the most flexible among my three road bikes, the others being CF and Al...of course that's as much due to the design and implementation as it is the material. It's also the heaviest.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Perhaps!...just sayin!
love my ludditespeed!


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## rgordin (Oct 22, 2010)

I have never thought of "flexy" and "comfortable" as the same. A bike can be designed to not transmit every bump while still not flexing too much in tracking (fork, for example) or power transmission (bottom bracket, for example). 

The design of a bike takes into account many factors. Most bikes are a combination of absorption of energy and transmission of energy. As an example, a good road racing bike for longer events will be designed differently than a bike made primarily for criterium races. Neither is "flexy;" yet they will differ in comfort and stiffness.


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## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

rgordin said:


> I have never thought of "flexy" and "comfortable" as the same. A bike can be designed to not transmit every bump while still not flexing too much in tracking (fork, for example) or power transmission (bottom bracket, for example).
> 
> The design of a bike takes into account many factors. Most bikes are a combination of absorption of energy and transmission of energy. As an example, a good road racing bike for longer events will be designed differently than a bike made primarily for criterium races. Neither is "flexy;" yet they will differ in comfort and stiffness.


I have read here in the Forums that the most "give" is from tires and air pressure. Most frames are pretty firm. Yes, there is a different feel associated with the different frame materials (steel, aluminum, titanium, and carbon). Regardless, the design of any frame is what determines its stiffness. I have an aluminum frame that had a pretty harsh feel to it, until I put on 25mm tires @ 90 psi. I felt every bump on that one with 23 mm tires @100 psi. I also have a steel framed bike that has a wonderful feel to it (Soma Smoothie). I started with 25 mm tires on that one.

The bottom line is changing the tires is the single most impact on ride smoothness. The tires are the first to give and take from the road.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

The prior owner had the litespeed "arenberg" bike from new and he is a bike shop owner and knows a helluva lot more than ever will about all the tech stuff with bikes. He's a clydesdale also and he road this bike many a country roads of oregon and not complaint did i hear from him and i believe most of us at this wgt. are'nt too concerned about bike wgt.,oh sure i could throw on a set of high end super carbon wheels and hope for something too happen,but the only real change will be to my bank acct. so i'll ride my (made in usa) 10yr. old Litespeed "wonderbike" with it's mavic (cosmic elites) and enjoy havin some bucks to stop and have brews.


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## tomcmpt (Jan 30, 2013)

'......stop and have brews.' Now that's a good atTItude! Riding my new Seven around crater lake this spring. Def be stopping for some good Oregon craft beer!


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## tidi (Jan 11, 2008)

I had a mid 90's de Rosa titanio. I fell in love with it's uniqueness and everything that a nos de Rosa can bring....until i rode it.
It's geometry was perfect but small dia tubes couldn't resist my 80kg weight the way i like. I had a tst made ti frame before the de Rosa which was one of the best frames I've had but a bit too big.
Both are gone now though.
I suggest sell the litespeed and get what you're looking for or you'll question every ride on it.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

De rosa..now there's a name out of the past...cool!..yeah it's always a good idea to get past the look of a particular bike and get to the nuts and bolts of the thing. Back in the good old 80's/90's when the usa. was gettin into cycling (ala) tour de france and watching Lemond and later you know who,the bike companies were probably scrambling for the bike with the latest innovations and hence began the trickle down effect of technology....just my opinion!..but if true!..most appreciated.
As for my Litespeed,i have some serious $$'s invested in it and in order to come out of the expierience with a sense that it's not a waste because it does'nt climb or sprint very well is NOT! important,at my age and outlook of cycling i will ride the bike as though it were any other ride and YES! i will climb with it and well maybe not Cavendish it too much,but i will enjoy it for what it is and not second guess it.
It is what it is............FUN!!!

I need to start a Litespeed.."Arenberg"....love club.

feel free to throw your saddle in the ring...LOL!


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

rider9 said:


> I have read here in the Forums that the most "give" is from tires and air pressure. Most frames are pretty firm. Yes, there is a different feel associated with the different frame materials (steel, aluminum, titanium, and carbon). Regardless, the design of any frame is what determines its stiffness. I have an aluminum frame that had a pretty harsh feel to it, until I put on 25mm tires @ 90 psi. I felt every bump on that one with 23 mm tires @100 psi. I also have a steel framed bike that has a wonderful feel to it (Soma Smoothie). I started with 25 mm tires on that one.
> 
> The bottom line is changing the tires is the single most impact on ride smoothness. The tires are the first to give and take from the road.


There are many carbon seatposts that have upwards of a half inch of deflection.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Well i've learned a little more from the forum guru's now than i did say a month or two ago,and for that i'm thankful!...all the hype about one bike or the other being either more stiff or more compliant is up to the owner/rider for the most part...it seems to be the main advertising sales pitch used once a dealer finds out your specific needs and what you'd like the bike to do for you.All of the ideas for a better ride do have to do with its frame layout and what it's built to do best. Like i stated in earlier responses,this Litespeed "02" arenberg frameset is only going to do what it's designed to do,which is soak up crappy roads and let you ride all day...it's NOT! a crit.bike and never will it be....i'm cool with that!...besides i'll just have to go out and find a bike that is stiffer for those leg burning climbs and short sprints. You can never have too many bikes!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

rgordin said:


> I have never thought of "flexy" and "comfortable" as the same. A bike can be designed to not transmit every bump while still not flexing too much in tracking (fork, for example) or power transmission (bottom bracket, for example).
> 
> The design of a bike takes into account many factors. Most bikes are a combination of absorption of energy and transmission of energy. As an example, a good road racing bike for longer events will be designed differently than a bike made primarily for criterium races. Neither is "flexy;" yet they will differ in comfort and stiffness.


Exactly! A bike designed for the rider's weight with progressive stiffness from the top tube to the down tube and then to the chainstays would be the stellar example of the absorption and then the transmission of the rider's energy.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Exactly!.....that'll work...!


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

I had an Arensburg it was a decent frame. I upgraded to a Vortex and it was a much stiffer and responsive frame. I think you need a Vortex with larger and shaped tubes at your weight.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I have a Serotta titanium-carbon mix, aka the Ottrott; it's a "comfort" bike. Top tube, down tube, seat stays are carbon. Seat tube and chain stays are ti.

I'm under 130 lbs, and about 5'7". My frame is a 50cm (so small frame). I can't flex this frame even if I wanted to! Although I'm under 130 lbs, I can sustain 270-280W for an hour on an all-out hellish climb, and I can "feel" that the bike is flexing a bit. However, when I tried the same climb using a much stiffer crit-like bike (Cyfac Nerv), my time is saved by less than a minute. We're talking about a 1-hr all-out climb.. saved by less than 1 minute. Now if this was a race, then 1 minute would be significant, but 1 minute means nothing to me if I'm training.

But I can tell you this, on the way home from such a hellish effort, I'd take the soft Ottrott anyday over the much harsher Cyfac Nerv. Reason is because when your body and mind is tire, the last thing you want to brace your teeth for bumps and cracks. The Ottrott eats them up. And my pedal stroke when I'm in a tempo is smooth, I don't punch the pedals, so flexing a non-issue. But I do see a lot of big guys always trying to use brute then they pedals with their slow cadene. If pedal like a brute, then yer gonna flex lots of Ti frames.

Having said this, I think at your weight (even if you may not be producing the same wattage over an hour as my measly legs).. you still probably can produce more peak strength (not wattage) than me, and therefore will flex the Ottrott. So I do not recommend you getting an averagely built Serotta Ottrott.. unless you custom it and have it overbuilt by Serotta.. but then this would make the Ottrott not an Ottrott anymore.

If I were you, I'd keep the Lightspeed, and buy a used super stiff used carbon bike if you so desire (eg, Kestrel frames are cheap and they are STIFF. I would not buy a Kestrel for this reason, but you at 220# is ok).

** There is a Russian cutom Ti maker called "Titan". He is discussed more on the mtbr.com forum. He makes custome Ti frames for trial bikes and mountain bikes, and now is starting to expand into roadie world. If you want burly Ti road frame, then look him up. It won't be light, but you won't be able to flex his frames either.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

I'm searching as we speak....always on the prowl!......thx's!


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

tidi said:


> I had a tst made ti frame


TST=best ti frames ever. 
No framebuilder is going to have the resources that Sandvik could draw on.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I always think my ti bike is too soft on climbs... soaking up all my energy and not stiff enough in the rear triangle and BB... until I actually start getting back into shape and focus on my climbing, and then I remember that is was simply my crappy legs at fault. The hills I did this week felt amazingly different than when I rode them last week. No energy transfer problems today. Funny that.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Talking frame flex.

Science and Bicycles: Frame Stiffness | Off The Beaten Path

A Journey of Discovery, Part 5: Frame Stiffness | Off The Beaten Path


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Juanmoretime said:


> I had an Arensburg it was a decent frame. I upgraded to a Vortex and it was a much stiffer and responsive frame. I think you need a Vortex with larger and shaped tubes at your weight.


Or an Ultimate. I've been riding one since I bought it in 2000. I've gotten up to 200 lbs and its definitely not a flexy frame. I love my Ludditespeed as well.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Yeah the Ultimate is the one i used to stare at in the colorado cyclist catalog and drool all over the pages....kinda like bike porn,but in a good way!,but a ultimate did not fall in my lap like this Arenberg did..which according to many on here is not as bad a frame as some make it out to be.Yeah i'll agree that is is a comfort frame and not a climb up the Alps kinda machine,but then i'm not a alps climbing kinda rider.Gonna try a set of 50mm carbon aero wheels on it from Vuelta and see if there is any ride differences good or bad. I'll probably ride it this year and analyze the feedback i get or don't get and maybe make a move in the off season....i never planned on riding this bike ballsout...so to speak! that's not how i ride any bike,so with it's in the saddle all day comfort it may just be the right machine for me....we'll see!...it's all good!


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## youngjun91 (Sep 28, 2012)

My new Litespeed, also known as the Lynskey Cooper, is plenty stiff with just the right amount of comfort for my 180 pounds. I also have the 1 and 1/8 inch Easton EC90 fork, Dura Ace cranks, and Boyd Vitesse wheels which are pretty stiff with the extra spoke count I opted for. The Cooper I believe would have shaped and maybe fatter tubes compared to your bike.


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## patsport89 (Feb 28, 2013)

I hope a stiff wheel set will solve your problem. I also recently purchased a beautiful used 2004 Litespeed Vortex. I took a sharp turn going about 25mph and the bike started to wobble pretty bad. Does anyone know what Litespeed has reccommended for this problem? The bike rides stiff on straight aways and have decended down hill at a rate of about 45mphs. No problems with the wobble. I read years back that some thought it was the integrated headset. Others thought it was the fork or the flex in the BB. Has anyone heard anything new to correct this problem.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

patsport89 said:


> I hope a stiff wheel set will solve your problem. I also recently purchased a beautiful used 2004 Litespeed Vortex. I took a sharp turn going about 25mph and the bike started to wobble pretty bad. Does anyone know what Litespeed has reccommended for this problem? The bike rides stiff on straight aways and have decended down hill at a rate of about 45mphs. No problems with the wobble. I read years back that some thought it was the integrated headset. Others thought it was the fork or the flex in the BB. Has anyone head anything new to correct this problem.


I have read that a needle bearing/roller bearing headset helps with shimmy. But good luck finding one.


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## Spinman (Jul 15, 2005)

Sorry to hear about that,but through all of this thread it seems the general concensus is that this is a in the saddle all day kinda ride. If you push this frame it sounds like it pushed back with a little warning of Hey! don't do that.I'm also thinking that the integrated headsets are nice when new,but like alot of things do...when they get on in time they tend to weaken easily...but you know what?...it's still a work of art in design.
exploit what it does best!,and keep it under 25mph's in the turns!


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## Nomorehomes (Aug 26, 2014)

I have an Arenberg and will never sell it. It is silky smooth and has over 16k miles on it. It is the Caddy for a long ride once in a while instead of the Shelby with the coil over racing package where you can feel every pebble on the road. If u have room for it in the garage there is no reason to sell it. At least keep it for a rain bike. My guess is that the bike shop owner who sold it to u is jonesing for selling it but he will never admit that to u. The newer big frame litespeeds are nice but they aren't cruisers like the Arenberg. I did have to strip off the yellow lettering and replace with crazy skulls, however.


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## Mobybrooklyn (Apr 23, 2018)

I have an Arenberg and I weigh 210 and the bike rides very smooth and stiff and not flexy at all. The ride is similar to 853 steel but lighter .


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Bob Ross said:


> Let's see:
> 
> - older, "lightly used" Ti frame: check
> - made by Litespeed: check
> ...


You missed "60cm". I also ride that size and the long tubes are prone to flexing unless the builder seriously beefed them up.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

You all missed that OP hasn't been on the forum for more than 4 years. 

Think this thread can go back to the grave.


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