# Do I need really a Torque-Wrench for my carbon frame?



## Hundminen (Mar 21, 2011)

After following some of the advice on these forums, I got paranoid thinking I'm going to damage my new Specialized Roubaix carbon frame or seat post by over-torquing bolts on the seat post, bottle cage, handlebar stem, or wheel clamps, and end up a statistic in the local paper after a catastrophic failure caused by one N*m torque too much.

So I decided to check out LBS's and hardware stores in my area in search of an inexpensive torque-wrench to help me tighten up these various parts without wrecking my frame. Well, I can tell you I spoke to a number of LBS mechanics, and they laughed. One pulled out a very expensive Park Tool bike torque wrench, and told me he never uses it.
None of the LBS's sell these, and the hardware stores carry them in 0-200 N*m range only, which is not sensitive enough for the 3-6 N*m adjustments needed on the carbon frame.

Help me! Am I over-thinking this? Am I really going to break my frame by tightening the bolts with my cheap bike multi-tool and by applying firm pressure using 3 fingers?


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## thebikingcello (Feb 3, 2011)

GET A TORQUE WRENCH! Mechanics down't use them because all they do is build and put together bikes for a living and they KNOW how much is enough. A 30 dollar investment is worth it! Or 15 dollar one. My shop uses these for high end carbon stuff and it does not need to be used on just Ritchey components 

http://www.ritcheylogic.com/dyn_prod.php?p=05-252-100&k=97993

you can find this on line some where pretty easy most likely.


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## scryan (Jan 24, 2011)

Harbor freight inch pound torque wrench and allen socket set.

The mechanics never use them because they have a good feel for it after doing it for so long. If you dont have a ton of experience and feel, torque wrench is a nice way to not have to worry or think too much.


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## thebikingcello (Feb 3, 2011)

Plus if bike shops laughs at you, they are a kinda mean bike shop to do that. Just saying.


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

scryan said:


> Harbor freight inch pound torque wrench and allen socket set..


This is what I have had for a few years now. Haven't used it in a few years, basically just used it a few times until I figured it out.


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## Clicker7 (Aug 11, 2008)

If you can afford it get a decent torque wrench, like Pedros:
http://www.rei.com/product/785407/pedros-demi-torque-wrench

There are so many ajdustments you will use it for that vary quite a bit from 4nm-15+nm, and only a decent torque wrench will help to prevent damage.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

NO...you dont NEED one. But if you dont use one, you better go REAL easy on all your fasteners. 

I got one....and would never go back to tightenting things by feel, even on my MTB.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

For stuff that matters, it's best to do it right. I have torque wrenches I use working on cars, motorcycles, boats, and am required to use on just about every nut and bolt on aircraft. It's a simple and logical extension to use them on bicycles.


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## thmech (Feb 25, 2011)

As a mechanic of well over 20 years, having worked on two continents and every kind of bike and component out there, I always use a torque wrench. Especially on carbon frames and forks. I also use a tensiometer on all my wheel builds. Just makes sense. Over tightening a stem bolt can cause failure that more than likely is gonna hurt some body, also viods warranty in a lot of cases.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I can understand that years of experience might give a mechanic a good feel for torque, but the human hand is a terrible torque gauge and not reliable enough for me to risk having my investment or my warranty or my health on a mechanics sense of feel. I have and use a torque wrench, a Park tool model 1/4".


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

I'm consistently amazed at how light the recommended torque values for seatpost binders, stems, and topcaps feel...I'm certain that before I got a torque wrench I was _always_ overtightening those bolts.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I use a Ritchey Torqukey that fits the stems on all my bikes and seatpost clamps on all but one and agree, it doesn't take much to get the proper torque on thos small bolts. Everything else I set by feel, except that I use a beam torque wrench to set Bottom Brackets. Really important on BBs as several of my bikes have Italian threaded BB and I found out the hard way on the first one I built that they will back out on you if not set to proper specs.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Sears has decent price and quality torque wrenches. Harbor Freight stuff is junk. Anything sold that's supposedly bike specific (like Park) will cost twice as much as it should. Kinda the same as hex wrenches. Go to the hardware store, not the LBS.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

I've been wanting a nice one for a few years. Cycling has given me an appreciation for quality tools, amongst other things.

Don't have one yet, take my carbon bike to the shop if I desire, but usually I just go by feel. I worked with the mechanic building it up and he definitely told me that I/most of the time we over torque things.

Nothing catastrophic for me...yet.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Ritchey torque wrench: Got one. The bit is held in by glue so I heated the end of the wrench's barrel where it's held and pulled it out. I then scraped out any residual glue so I could stick any 1/4" hex bit into it. A further refinement was to glue a rare earth magnet down in the barrel to keep the bits from falling out in use.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

thebikingcello said:


> Mechanics down't use them because all they do is build and put together bikes for a living and they KNOW how much is enough.QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Actually no they don't they just think they do the good mechanics I know all use tourque wrenchs, the ones who think they know how much is enough are the ones I would not let touch my bike.


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## Sisophous (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't buy into that Torque crap. I bought a Torque wrench when I changed my transmission fluid on my car. As if I created a big enough mess with red fluid all over the place, then I had to use this long wrench while knocking my head into the car. 

Skip it, it is only for people who are incompetent and can't use proper judgment when tightening things.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

pmf said:


> Sears has decent price and quality torque wrenches. Harbor Freight stuff is junk. Anything sold that's supposedly bike specific (like Park) will cost twice as much as it should. Kinda the same as hex wrenches. Go to the hardware store, not the LBS.


Ditto sears. 

You need two torque wrenches, one "small" one "medium"

Look at the torque needed for the small stuff (like stems) and get a torque wrench that has that number some where in the middle of its range, not at either end of the range.

Look at the torque needed for the big stuff like crank bolts and cassettes and get another for that range.

DO NOT BUY CHEAP CLICKER TYPE TORQUE WRENCHES, especially if they are not the right size (based on the above sizing instructions). They are extremely unreliable especially at the low end of their range.

A better bet is to buy common beam (swaying pointer) type. Sears sells a wide variety. I have a "medium" Sears wrench and my small one is Park. Absolutely no difference in quality and the Sears one was cheaper and easier to get locally.

As a third torque device, I highly recommend the Ritchey torque key or similar. They are just so handy for quick, easy replacement of stems and seat posts, which are the things I do most frequently (other than adjustments, which don't require torque wrenches).

I think you can get into all three of these devices for less than $75, closer to $50 if you're lucky.

While you're at Sears or Autozone, get a full set of socket-type metric hex wrenches to go with them and appropriate adapter for the socket drive(s) on your torque wrenches. You'll probably need a 1/4 to 3/8 adapter socket. 99% of yoru wrenching will be with metric hex wrenches. I have built up five different options over the years: socket drive set, T-handle set, a multi-head screwdriver set, a couple triple head type, and a normal multi tool type (in each bike seat bag).

The T handles, triple, and sockets are really nice for in the shop.


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## scryan (Jan 24, 2011)

pmf said:


> Harbor Freight stuff is junk..


Mostly, though they do a few things reasonably well.

I have used there digital calipers and dial indicators for years along side expensive ones and they have always been with in the specified tolerances ( +- 0.0005in)

Search online, there have actually been quite a few tests and testimonials... Their torque wrenches are not bad. I have also personally used them quite a bit with no problems.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

I was a mechanic for over 20 years (different field, marine mechanic). There are only a few times when we would use a torque wrench. You start out your career with a torque wrench but get to the point where they don't need it all the time. For a few things yes, but definitely not most of the time.
If i saw a mechanic using a torque wrench on an inconsequential bolt, I would grab my bike away from him.
For the home mechanic, they are a good idea.


32and3cross said:


> thebikingcello said:
> 
> 
> > Mechanics down't use them because all they do is build and put together bikes for a living and they KNOW how much is enough.QUOTE]
> ...


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Since I assume that you're not a professional mechanic that works 40+ hours per week on bikes, cars, motorcycles, or something where you can develop a "feel" for what amount of torque is needed then, yes, you need one.


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## SeaBass67 (Aug 16, 2010)

Check out the Park TW-1
http://www.parktool.com/product/torque-wrench-TW-1

Good up to 7nm. The TW-2 covers anything beyond. They're reasonably priced and a small investment for your piece of mind. You wouldn't take your Ferrari to Jiffylube , would you?


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## backpackben (Apr 29, 2013)

*I want your knowledge.*

What specific torque wrench do you use for smaller weights (0Nm-20Nm)? I want the best.





thmech said:


> As a mechanic of well over 20 years, having worked on two continents and every kind of bike and component out there, I always use a torque wrench. Especially on carbon frames and forks. I also use a tensiometer on all my wheel builds. Just makes sense. Over tightening a stem bolt can cause failure that more than likely is gonna hurt some body, also viods warranty in a lot of cases.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Hundminen said:


> Well, I can tell you I spoke to a number of LBS mechanics, and they laughed. One pulled out a very expensive Park Tool bike torque wrench, and told me he never uses it.
> 
> Help me! Am I over-thinking this? Am I really going to break my frame by tightening the bolts with my cheap bike multi-tool and by applying firm pressure using 3 fingers?


I know which mechanics I wouldn't be using.

If you are looking for torque wrench you need to look at what components you are going to be wrenching on, my guess is most folks will get by with a 5nm Ritchey Torqkey, if you need something in the 12nm range look for a 1/4" drive torque wrench on Amazon. For things like Campy Ultratorque bolts you will need a 3/8" wrench There is no reason to buy a torque wrench from Park Tool, they are overpriced and most likely re badged.
BTW I do have a lot of Park Tools, no torque wrench from them though.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Sisophous said:


> I don't buy into that Torque crap. I bought a Torque wrench when I changed my transmission fluid on my car. As if I created a big enough mess with red fluid all over the place, then I had to use this long wrench while knocking my head into the car.
> 
> Skip it, it is only for people who are incompetent and can't use proper judgment when tightening things.


LOL, the voice of competence or incompetence?


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Bob Ross said:


> I'm consistently amazed at how light the recommended torque values for seatpost binders, stems, and topcaps feel...I'm certain that before I got a torque wrench I was _always_ overtightening those bolts.


I am the reverse and constantly undertightened bolts. But I've had only one time where something worked loose.


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## Pitts Pilot (Dec 5, 2011)

Didn't read through, so apologies if repeating:

I bought one and used it for a bit and now I never pull it out, as I know I can come really close on "feel." Like the OP, I was stressed, but found that I was actually well under the max on all bolts, due to fear.

So your best option is to just borrow one for a bit. It will alleviate your fears and give you a good feel for how the key bolts your worried bout should be tightened.

If you happen to be in Northern Taiwan, I'll loan you mine.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Sisophous said:


> Skip it, it is only for people who are incompetent and can't use proper judgment when tightening things.


What if the OP is one of those people?


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## AGW (May 20, 2012)

$30 (or less) is worth peace of mind, IMO. The Ritchey one, Bontrager makes one, or this one (my preference): CDI Torque TLPT5NM 5 Newton Meters Pre Set Torque Limiting T Handle - Amazon.com


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

I mirror what others have said. When i decided to start working on my carbon frame, I knew it was time to get a good torque wrench. Like many have said, I got a good one from Sears for $45. Well worth the $$ to insure I'm not going to crack my frame or other components.


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## M Ice (Dec 8, 2011)

Sisophous said:


> I don't buy into that Torque crap. I bought a Torque wrench when I changed my transmission fluid on my car. As if I created a big enough mess with red fluid all over the place, then I had to use this long wrench while knocking my head into the car.
> 
> Skip it, it is only for people who are incompetent and can't use proper judgment when tightening things.


He must be right. When I Google "changing transmission fluid" and "working on carbon fiber frame bicycles", I get the exact same instructions.....


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

also carbon paste is your friend


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

M Ice said:


> He must be right. When I Google "changing transmission fluid" and "working on carbon fiber frame bicycles", I get the exact same instructions.....


+1

Sis has been regaling the forum with his unique combination of inexperience, ignorance and ineptitude for some time now. His posts don't even make the needle wiggle on the credibility meter, but he sure can be entertaining!


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## LAW.S.T (May 15, 2012)

M Ice said:


> He must be right. When I Google "changing transmission fluid" and "working on carbon fiber frame bicycles", I get the exact same instructions.....


i like your version of google ;D


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## Brickster (Dec 12, 2012)

Just to confirm that it is a good investment. I managed quite easily to strip the threads on the bottle cage of a new TREK Domane. I was, of course, way too heavy handed and inexperienced. Lesson learned. LBS had to repair


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

I have often observed employees who have the highest opinion of their mechanical aptitude are often the least skilled.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

A torque wrench is nice to get a feel for what the torque recommendations actually feel like... but then again in order to screw something up you have to be pretty negligent. So if you're very inexperienced and/or have a penchant for being careless, it might be a good idea to get one. Otherwise, it's like putting on your seat belt just to back your car out of the garage... kind of overkill.


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## CafeRoubaix (Sep 11, 2012)

Use a Giustaforza II 2-16 Pro by Effetto Mariposa and your Italian frame will love you!


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

The reason we invent calibrated machines is because they can measure and perform consistently, whereas we humans are terrible at feeling something to within a reasonable amount of precision.

I own the Park TW-5 torque wrench, and I really like it. Being the Park Tools brand, it's not the cheapest, but that's why I found it on sale.


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## St. Urho (Jun 22, 2010)

I use a torque wrench all the time. According to this article, even professional mechanics aren't so great about estimating torque.



> Studies conducted by torque industry specialists JH Williams Tool Group/CDI Torque Products (a division of Snap-On) yield similar conclusions, using a more high-tech test apparatus that accurately measures actual applied torque on a load cell in relation to what the subject thinks he's applying.
> 
> "At Interbike [2008], we had a transducer set-up to a 0.25in breaker bar and hex bit socket, and we asked for volunteers to tighten the bolts at the stem/steerer to the recommended torque value [4.5Nm – a common spec for those types of parts]," said marketing product manager Glenn Kalnins. "Of the nine volunteers, only one person was within spec (+/- four percent) of the 4.5Nm value [and] some people pulled five and six times the value that was set on our clicker.
> 
> "Imagine your stem faceplate needs to be tightened to 5Nm to hold your brand new carbon bar in place and you or your local mechanic tightens it to 25Nm or 30Nm. This variability is totally unacceptable in terms of safety and liability in the bicycle industry."


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

A torque wrench isn't needed, just tighten till you hear the click.


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## LAW.S.T (May 15, 2012)

velodog said:


> A torque wrench isn't needed, just tighten till you hear the click.


that might just the sound of threads slowly breaking.


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## LAW.S.T (May 15, 2012)

Having worked with aircraft engines where we had to use the torque wench often, I learnt that doing it by "feel" just won't cut it, you'd be surprised as to how much N/M can be generated with just a bit of a push


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## davez26 (Nov 15, 2010)

Screw it, no wrench needed, just wing it. What's the worst that could happen?, just ruin a carbon frame, no biggie!
Me, I figure if I am going to invest in the ride, I will invest in the tools.


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

I have a Ritchey Key and Craftsman 1/4"and 3/8" beam wrenches and use them all the time, especially when working on someone else's bike. Been wrenching for 30+ years on my own bikes and friends' bikes. Also spent a couple of years doing machine work and my whole life around tools and my own guesses are anywhere from 50% low to 50% high. I will take the extra 30 seconds to torque it to spec as opposed to losing hours or days having to replace something.


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## siclmn (Feb 7, 2004)

The Park wrench is just an ages old beam torque wrench. I hate them for they don't go click when you arrive at your correct torque. It's very easy to over torque something with one of those. And I will bet that is a rebranded wrench that they sell. The little clickers that that bike shops sell for your stems and seat posts are all that most people will ever need. They cost under $20.


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## philipw33 (Jan 29, 2012)

what if i removed my rear brake assembly. should i use a torque on that as well?


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## mann2 (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm a big fan of non-click type/ beam torque wrenches. They are reliable, zero maintenance and allow you to actually see the torque ramping up while wrenching. All you need to look out for is the torque value at which you'd want to stop wrenching. For this, some old schoolers would just mark it with some masking tape. 

Click type torque wrenches need to be calibrated from time to time (well at least according to the instructions on the one i bought for my car), which may/may not screw up actual applied torque values.


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

After snapping the head off a titanium bolt, I decided it was time for a torque wrench. I use it for lots of things now, but my favorite is Speedplay cleat screws. I was always tightening those things as they would start to back out after a couple of months. A torque wrench and some Loctite blue and no more problem.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

I'm amazed constantly. Buy this much carbon bike, gear etc and skimp on a torque wrench? I don't get the guy who thinks working on bikes 20 years ago qualifies expertise on composite equipment in 2013. The Park Tool TW1 is awesome. All of the attachments from my inexpensive Chinese socket and bit set work with it too. Order one and enjoy.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

carbonLORD said:


> I'm amazed constantly. Buy this much carbon bike, gear etc and skimp on a torque wrench? I don't get the guy who thinks working on bikes 20 years ago qualifies expertise on composite equipment in 2013. The Park Tool TW1 is awesome. All of the attachments from my inexpensive Chinese socket and bit set work with it too. Order one and enjoy.


What has changed about the rear wheels that requires a torque wrench on a cassette lock-ring? Outside of all carbon high zoot wheels, the answer is nothing.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes you need one and the Harbor Freight ones mentioned are cheap and work.
I recently stripped a chain ring bolt on my Specialized crankset because I didn't have T30 Torx bit for my torque wrench. Turns out the Specialized chain ring bolts have smaller and fewer threads than standard ones and can't take as much torque. I think it is not a good design but blame myself for stripping it.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

jnbrown said:


> Yes you need one and the Harbor Freight ones mentioned are cheap and work.
> I recently stripped a chain ring bolt on my Specialized crankset because I didn't have T30 Torx bit for my torque wrench. Turns out the Specialized chain ring bolts have smaller and fewer threads than standard ones and can't take as much torque. I think it is not a good design but blame myself for stripping it.


What does that have to do with the OP question about needing a Torque wrench for a cassette lockring installation?


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