# Anyone else running a standard tire tubeless?



## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

A friend of mine ran cheap wire bead Continental Ultra Sport tires (700 x 28) on his Alpha 340 rims, apparently without issue. Kind of an experiment, I guess, but he said he never had a problem with them. I know no company has recommended running non-tubeless tires as tubeless. I've done some searching, but I haven't found any threads where anyone else has tried doing so, so figured I'd ask.

Everything I did find strongly suggested against doing it because non-tubeless beads aren't strong enough for the job. Maybe my friend's experiment worked because he was using a wire bead tire.

I've got a set of Alpha 340's coming my way, but I have tubeless Schwalbe Ultremos coming to install on them. Not sure I'd be willing to attempt to use a standard tire unless I heard more success stories.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Don't even think about trying it. 



but if you do, post pics of the carnage. And tell your friend he's currently up for a Darwin Award.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Not sure how my friend is up for a Darwin award - first you have to die, and he isn't dead. He's put a lot of miles on the set up, even on fast descents on gravel. I figure if he's tried it, someone else must have, too. 

So I was hoping to hear about others' experiences with running non-tubeless tires tubeless, and whether they were actually successful or not. As is, my friend is the only one who I have heard of trying it, and it has worked. Everything else I've read is from people like yourself who have apparently not actually tried it, and so really have no confirmation that it would be so bad. Unless you have tried it, or at least maybe tried putting one on and didn't even get as far as a ride before finding problems? I don't know, you don't say anymore in your post than not to try it.

In my experience, going around manufacturer's warnings doesn't always mean instant death and dismemberment. Stan's for years did not recommend using WTB mountain bike tires with his tubeless setups, yet I used several WTB tires tubeless for years without a single issue.

So, anyone with actual experience with running non-tubeless tires as tubeless?


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

It won't work and isn't worth trying. Next.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

It's a very bad idea, but may work with low pressure. Some tires will absolutely not work. The Continental 4000gp tires have been known to blow off the Alpha even with a tube. I tested a Continental top-contact touring tire 28mm (measures 26) and ran it tubeless under 70 psi for 3 winters in a row. It did blow off when I let the bike sit in the sun for a few hours though. The safety factor for a blow-off is very small.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Jwiffle said:


> A friend of mine ran cheap wire bead Continental Ultra Sport tires (700 x 28) on his Alpha 340 rims, apparently without issue. Kind of an experiment, I guess, but he said he never had a problem with them. I know no company has recommended running non-tubeless tires as tubeless. I've done some searching, but I haven't found any threads where anyone else has tried doing so, so figured I'd ask.
> 
> Everything I did find strongly suggested against doing it because non-tubeless beads aren't strong enough for the job. Maybe my friend's experiment worked because he was using a wire bead tire.
> 
> I've got a set of Alpha 340's coming my way, but I have tubeless Schwalbe Ultremos coming to install on them. Not sure I'd be willing to attempt to use a standard tire unless I heard more success stories.


Notubes advises against this for road applications for the risk of the tire blowing off of the rim. They don't say this because they want you to buy hutchinson road tubeless tires.....

for low pressure applications (like MTB), it's fine.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Jwiffle said:


> Not sure how my friend is up for a Darwin award - first you have to die, and he isn't dead. He's put a lot of miles on the set up, even on fast descents on gravel. I figure if he's tried it, someone else must have, too.
> 
> So I was hoping to hear about others' experiences with running non-tubeless tires tubeless, and whether they were actually successful or not. As is, my friend is the only one who I have heard of trying it, and it has worked. Everything else I've read is from *people like yourself who have apparently not actually tried it*, and so really have no confirmation that it would be so bad. Unless you have tried it, or at least maybe tried putting one on and didn't even get as far as a ride before finding problems? I don't know, you don't say anymore in your post than not to try it.
> 
> ...


There's a good reason for that. The only way it would possibly work (as others have posted) is at VERY low pressure. If you're not smart enough to understand the difference in bead design and construction between a normal folding tire and a tubeless tire, then go ahead and try it out for yourself. 
There are times when you should just take advice you've been given as correct and move on. This is one of those times.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

I tried it once just for grins, didn't make it to 85 psi before the tire blew off. That was on an alpha rim.

I don't think it is a very good idea. The beads are too stretchy.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Jwiffle said:


> I've got a set of Alpha 340's coming my way, but I have tubeless Schwalbe Ultremos coming to install on them. Not sure I'd be willing to attempt to use a standard tire unless I heard more success stories.


I'd be more inclined to try it on a rim with a good hook bead... but the 340 has essentially none. Actually I wouldn't try it period... there are too many fast downhills where losing a tire could be fatal. 

Leonard Zinn tried to run a regular road tire tubeless, and it came off. I don't know the details.


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## ToffieBoi (May 1, 2011)

It can work, but here is the reason why not to do it.

You said you will have your tubeless tires soon, so you can experience it too.

Put the tubeless tires to your rim. Inflate it, and then just empty all the air in it. You will see that beads are holding the rim really tight and strong. That you need to use power to detach them.
And then try regular tire. After you deflate the regular tire, you will see that beads are not holding the rim at all.

What it means;
When you hit a bump on a descent, it means that your tire can deflate in a second and you can try how tarmac tastes like.
As I told you, it doesn't mean that it will not work. Here, we are trying to reduce the fail risk as much as we can.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

ToffieBoi said:


> It can work, but here is the reason why not to do it.
> 
> You said you will have your tubeless tires soon, so you can experience it too.
> 
> ...



It is dependent on the rim whether the bead is locked when the tire is deflated

For example, the shimano rims lock very nicely

Stan's alpha rims, the bead doesn't really lock when deflated, sometimes it will stick but if you jut breathe on it it will pop out

Whether the bead locks when deflated has nothing to do with how the tire will behave when you hit a bump

You can for instance run tubeless tires with regular rims quite nicely

I completely agree with you, running a non tubeless tire as tubeless is very dangerous

As I mentioned I tried to mount a tubed tired as tubeless and it blew off at a very low pressure, for a road tire


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

rruff said:


> Leonard Zinn tried to run a regular road tire tubeless, and it came off. I don't know the details.


From my recollection the tire blew off and the tire simply spun around the rim which was locked up under brakes, resulting in an inability to stop the bike. He was able to pull out of the situation somehow but just in the past week he wrote more about road tubeless in his column on VN and showed a cross section of a tubeless rim and explained how a tubeless tire bead is different and works in conjunction with the rim to prevent the tire from blowing off. 

My takeaway from Zinn's experience was running standard clincher tires or rims tubeless is dead crazy and highly likely to result in a catastrophic wipeout in a high speed downhill when braking and heating the rim and tire.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ToffieBoi said:


> It can work, but here is the reason why not to do it.
> 
> You said you will have your tubeless tires soon, so you can experience it too.
> 
> ...


As purdyd posted this is definitely dependent on the rim. It sounds like your advice is based on your personal experience w/ a single rim/tire combination. One of my wheelsets is the Bontrager Race TLR, w/ Bontrager R2 tubeless tires mounted. It is most definitely not a solid, locked-in fit when deflated. 
When you post (what i think is only personal experience) you should note it as such.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

purdyd, mtbpete, thank you. I was looking to hear from others who have tried it and found it not to work, rather than just repeating a manufacturer's warning - which often enough are more CYA than anything else. I'm assuming the tires you used were folding bead; I guess it worked for my friend because he was using a cheap tire with a steel bead, so it didn't stretch when inflated. But you don't really find decent race type tires with a steel bead.

As far as ToffieBoi's point about the bead locking in the rim, the Schwalbe tubeless tires do not stay locked to the rim on my Alpha 340s when entirely deflated. Although, they do apparently stay locked in place to a pretty low pressure. At some point in my ride the other day, I apparently got a puncture that the sealant sealed after losing most of the pressure. Yet, somehow I never noticed until after I finished and happened to grab the tire and notice it was quite low, and when I went to pump it up, it was down below 20! I don't know how I didn't feel that while riding.


Thanks for the feedback everyone.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Jwiffle said:


> purdyd, mtbpete, thank you. I was looking to hear from others who have tried it and found it not to work, rather than just repeating a manufacturer's warning - which often enough are more CYA than anything else. I'm assuming the *tires you used were folding bead; I guess it worked for my friend because he was using a cheap tire with a steel bead, so it didn't stretch when inflated.* But you don't really find decent race type tires with a steel bead.
> 
> As far as ToffieBoi's point about the bead locking in the rim, the Schwalbe tubeless tires do not stay locked to the rim on my Alpha 340s when entirely deflated. Although, they do apparently stay locked in place to a pretty low pressure. At some point in my ride the other day, I apparently got a puncture that the sealant sealed after losing most of the pressure. Yet, somehow I never noticed until after I finished and happened to grab the tire and notice it was quite low, and when I went to pump it up, it was down below 20! I don't know how I didn't feel that while riding.
> 
> ...


To clarify, the bead on a folding tire doesn't "stretch" when the tire is inflated any more than that of a wire bead tire. If they did, tires would be blowing off all over the place. Tires are manufactured w/ a very specific bead diameter, if one type stretched more than another they wouldn't work on the same rims...which they obviously do.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Oh they do stretch... but there is another reason why they don't come off. Damon Rinard did an experiment where he cut the bead on a tire in numerous places and it still stayed on with high pressure. The force pressing the tire bead into the rim's hook was enough. 

Those were with tubes. And Stan's 340 rims don't have a hook bead so I doubt this experiment would work on those.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

rruff said:


> Oh they do stretch... but there is another reason why they don't come off. Damon Rinard did an experiment where he cut the bead on a tire in numerous places and it still stayed on with high pressure. The force pressing the tire bead into the rim's hook was enough.
> 
> Those were with tubes. And Stan's 340 rims don't have a hook bead so I doubt this experiment would work on those.


Have you seen the video of the Specialized(i think) carbon mtb rim, w/ NO bead? They inflate a tire to over 170psi before it destroys the rim. The tire never came off the rim, and it was tubeless. 
Car, truck and motorcycle rims don't have beads and while the pressure is lower (except on large trucks), the air volume is HUGE...and all of those tires stay on. It's all about the design, construction, and manufacturing tolerances.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> Have you seen the video of the Specialized(i think) carbon mtb rim, w/ NO bead? They inflate a tire to over 170psi before it destroys the rim. The tire never came off the rim, and it was tubeless.
> Car, truck and motorcycle rims don't have beads and while the pressure is lower (except on large trucks), the air volume is HUGE...and all of those tires stay on. It's all about the design, construction, and manufacturing tolerances.



Yes, it is Specialized in that video with the carbon mtb rim without a bead *hook*.

car, truck & motorcycle tires do have beads. The rims don't have the hook.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Exactly... if the rim doesn't have a hook then the tubeless tire bead needs to be strong enough and stiff enough to keep the tire on. That's why tubeless tires have carbon beads instead of kevlar.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

My bad, i meant to say the RIM had no hook, sorry. Obviously the tire has to have some kind of reinforcement and shape to hold it on the rim.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

rruff said:


> Exactly... if the rim doesn't have a hook then the tubeless tire bead needs to be strong enough and stiff enough to keep the tire on. That's why tubeless tires have carbon beads instead of kevlar.


road tubeless, yes.

but, MTB tubeless, the tubeless ready tires are still kevlar. Specialized was also using an off-the-shelf 2Bliss tire.


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