# Trek vs. Motobecane



## mgeorge402 (Jan 20, 2015)

Hi guys, I'm brand new to the forums, and new to cycling in general. I'm looking to get a beginner's road bike to commute to/from school and something that I can take out and ride for exercise. As a student, I obviously don't have much I can spend, so any tips as to what brands to look at or avoid? I don't have much experience in cycling, so my knowledge is very basic.

I've been looking at a Trek 7.1 FX and a Motobecane Mirage Tour. They seem like good entry-level bikes, and I want an upright road bike with flat bars, so these seemed right up my alley, especially in terms of price. Any thoughts as to either of these two? I've heard good things about the Trek, and the Motobecane, from what I understand, has good components, but the frame isn't the greatest. Any help is appreciated, and I'm happy to be here.

7.1 FX - Trek Bicycle
Save Up To 60% Off Road Bikes - Motobecane Mirage Tour


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

I'd say the one that feels best to you, but obvioulsy you can't test-ride the one that's only sold online.

Some questions:

Why flat bars? Are you sure? Have you ridden a bike with drop bars? Unless you really don't like the road bike riding position, they are more versatile.

Have you considered used? You can get more bike for the money, often. Check Craig's list, and/or shops in the area that sell used bikes.


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## mgeorge402 (Jan 20, 2015)

Thanks for the reply JCavilia. Yeah, unfortunately with it being winter in Rochester, New York, I can't take one for a test outside of a store. I want to check out a bike shop to see if they have any used inventory, and maybe even a good deal since we're not necessarily in cycling season. I've definitely considered used. I check Craigslist every now and again, but the problem is I don't really know enough to understand what a good deal and what isn't. I guess a little more research couldn't hurt.

Flat bars seemed ideal for me because I'll mainly be commuting to school. I'll have a backpack with all my books and laptop, so it just seems like an upright position would be more comfortable and practical. Would a backpack + drop bars be comfortable or does it not make a difference?


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Given your intended riding (commuting), I think a flat bar will be a good fit. Since you are new to cycling, I would recommend going to the bike shop and getting something from them. They'll be able to help you with sizing and fit, and give you advice on what works best locally.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

The winters in Rochester are a little rough, but they do clear the roads, and I'm not sure the shops won't let you test ride. I think there are a number of good bike shops in the area.

Buying used can be hard if you don't have experience. If you know someone who has a little cycling background that could help. 

How long is your commute? What school are you going to? My son graduated from RIT a few years ago and stayed in the area. For seven months of the year Rochester is a great place for casual cycling, with that network of trails along the rivers and canals. Winter, that's a little rough.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

Fair warning, bikes-direct's claimed comparable msrp and claim to be equal to brand names is a blatant exaggeration. That's not to say you can't get a good bike through that site, but take their claims with a huge grain of salt. 

The Motobecane's "list price" is BS, the sale price is what it's actually worth... which makes it essentially a dead tie compare to the Trek FX. The Motobecane *might* have a better fork, but it's impossible to say without actually having personal experience with it. 

It's basically a toss up in my opinion. Motobecane might be marginally better for the same price, but the Trek will have better resale value which would negate any savings.


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## Bikephelps (Jan 23, 2012)

If the Trek & Motobacane are close to equal, the Trek is undoubtably the better deal. Trek has a great warranty but most importantly Trek has a bike shop that will help with sizing, set-up & accessories. You probably don't have the experience to buy on-line or used. I'd check out other shops that carry "major" brands such as Specialized, Giant, Cannondale, etc. Go with the shop you like, entry level bikes from the major manufacturers are very similar.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I like some of the bikes that Bikes Direct sell especially when you get into the upper end pricing, but lower end not so much. I think you should go with the Trek or better yet see what other LBS brands have like Scott sold in LBS's, or Diamondback sold at Dicks Sporting Goods. With Trek you get a lesser quality bike for the money because someone has to pay for all the marketing they do and that someone is you.

Sizing a bike with any online store is not an issue compared with an LBS. All an LBS will do is ask for your height and inseam and grab one of 5 or so stock sized bikes off the shelf that comes closest to your dimensions, Online stores have a fit guide that does the exact same thing. The only advantage in a store is you can test ride various models and some will have slight variations that may fit you slightly better which you would never know getting a bike online. Then if you still have a fit issue then you can have either bike (online or from a store) do a pro fit which I think a large percent to the time is unnecessary if you do a internet search on how to fit a bike you could do it yourself, and you're not a pro rider so you don't need to extract all the power you can but you'll get within 98%. Also bike fitters for the most part are just out of high school, were trained for day to be a fitter then set out on the floor and called a professional fitter...yeah, a pro fitter that gets minimum wage! Next please. If you ever decide to get a pro fitting simply ask a cycling race club in town to see who they recommend, chances for success will be higher than just any fitter, but be prepared to spend money because the fitting charge alone is at least $150 plus whatever parts they think you need.


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## ridesmasterx (Aug 3, 2013)

For what is worth, I purchased a Motobecane Cafe Noir several months back as a kick-around bike and to use for commuting to and from work and couldn't be happier !! It has decent components that work flawlessly and is fun to ride. When time and weather permits, I take the long way home to get in extra miles and a good workout. You would need to know what size is right for you and it takes someone with a bit of assembly knowledge to get it set up but beyond I wouldn't hesitate.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Bikephelps said:


> If the Trek & Motobacane are close to equal, the Trek is undoubtably the better deal. Trek has a great warranty but most importantly Trek has a bike shop that will help with sizing, set-up & accessories. You probably don't have the experience to buy on-line or used. I'd check out other shops that carry "major" brands such as Specialized, Giant, Cannondale, etc. Go with the shop you like, entry level bikes from the major manufacturers are very similar.


Well put. The single advantage of being able to try before you buy makes the LBS a better option, IMO, and that says nothing of sizing/ fit assistance.

Shop for shops along with bikes. Not all are alike, so ask what the fit process entails and compare shops. Most, if not all will include a standard fitting. As an example, one of the more reputable shops in my area takes ~ an hour to do the fitting, with test rides to check the initial fit.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

ridesmasterx said:


> For what is worth, I purchased a Motobecane Cafe Noir several months back as a kick-around bike and to use for commuting to and from work and couldn't be happier !! It has decent components that work flawlessly and is fun to ride. When time and weather permits, I take the long way home to get in extra miles and a good workout. You would need to know what size is right for you and it takes someone with a bit of assembly knowledge to get it set up but beyond I wouldn't hesitate.


There is nothing wrong with Motobecane bikes or Bikes Direct. In fact, they also have their stores in many towns. Most of us on the forums are enthusiasts and have our biases. You can get a fitting in a Bikes Direct Store. With that being said, I do not own one but I have purchased a GT hybrid from them in the past. It was a good experience.
The only problem with Motobecane lies in the resale. If the Trek and the Motobecane were close in price than I would go with the Trek simply for the resale value. Trek definitely holds it value better. If you are going to keep it for years than that may be a moot point.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Shuffleman said:


> There is nothing wrong with Motobecane bikes or Bikes Direct. In fact, they also have their stores in many towns. Most of us on the forums are enthusiasts and have our biases. You can get a fitting in a Bikes Direct Store.


??? Are you sure you're talking about the same business? I've never heard that Bikes Direct has brick-and-mortar stores, and there is not a hint of that on their website.

From their FAQ page:



> Q: How can you sell these bikes at such low prices? (Back to Top of Page Click Here)
> A: We save you money by selling bikes factory direct. We do not require an expensive, high rent, store front location. We ship directly from the distribution warehouse. We also minimize our overhead by selling exclusively through the Internet.


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

I just purchase a Motobecane Le Champion CF PRO and the price difference is darn close to what they claim. Yes you can find a sale/closeout and skew the margins but that is a false comparison in it's own right. As you move up in this sport, as in any sport, the snobbiness increases. There is nothing wrong buying online but yes you have to fit yourself and put it together. And there is nothing hard about it, putting the bike together and making the necessary adjustments, but that is not something that everyone can or want to do (also true also on higher ends bikes were we are talking about piece meal and not preassembled; it includes investment in the tools necessary to do the job). The only real advantage getting it from a LBS is seeing and touching it in person before making the purchase and having an intermediary for warranty (incidentally the warranties are not all they cracked up to be).

Basically:
1. do you want or can do the work;
2. can you figure out what size bike you need;
3. can you read a user manual and spot imperfections/faults;
4. are willing to deal with a person unseen in getting things warrantied; and
5. do you like the look.

If you are on the border on any of the above, get it from a LBS. Spend the additional money and be done, instead getting of a possible headache. Just fine the right LBS were the bike are put together with care and by competent mechanics. Talk to your local bike clubs and racers who they do business with.

I owned an number of Trek bikes, all purchased in the late 80's. I got the same snobbiness from my teammates sporting Euro frames; mine only had Dura Ace, weight a bit more, and didn't have the custom lugs. The prejudice doesn't go away. Trek just have a much higher status cred now. Unless you are talking about the higher end, they all have horrible resale value. Probably only a new car has it worst.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Shuffleman said:


> There is nothing wrong with Motobecane bikes or Bikes Direct. In fact, they also have their stores in many towns. Most of us on the forums are enthusiasts and have our biases. You can get a fitting in a Bikes Direct Store. With that being said, I do not own one but I have purchased a GT hybrid from them in the past. It was a good experience.
> The only problem with Motobecane lies in the resale. If the Trek and the Motobecane were close in price than I would go with the Trek simply for the resale value. Trek definitely holds it value better. If you are going to keep it for years than that may be a moot point.


Lies? I don't think so, they simply state suggested retail prices which LBS's rarely sell bikes at suggested retail price, so if anything their guilty of stretching the truth. But if you look at their titanium cross bikes the price they quote from a competitor is actually on the low side of the TI manufactures spectrum. I think as the price of Bikes Direct bikes go down from their most expensive to their cheapest the truth gets stretched more and more. But I did a lot of pricing on TI bikes and can tell you their pricing it on the low side for what the competition charges.

Resale value to me means nothing, not saying it doesn't mean something to you, I never sell my bikes so it's not an issue. But Trek, or any other brand, resale value is not that high anyways so if you buy a new Trek or a new Motobecane both for $1500 in 5 years the Trek is worth $500 and the Motobecane is worth about the same because it has higher quality components, thus you come out the same.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

JCavilia said:


> ??? Are you sure you're talking about the same business? I've never heard that Bikes Direct has brick-and-mortar stores, and there is not a hint of that on their website.
> 
> From their FAQ page:


I am positive. It is about 2 miles or less from my office in Jacksonville, Florida.
I pasted this link from a quick google search of bicycle store 32246. If you click on their web site it links right to Bikes Direct web site. I have never purchased anything from the store but I have been in a few times to try to do business with them. It has been awhile but I am quite sure that the manager told me that they had multiple locations. 
Bikesdirect

_3 on Yelp_


4624 Town Crossing Dr, Ste 131
Jacksonville, FL 32246


(904) 928-2453

Open now


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

JCavilia said:


> ??? Are you sure you're talking about the same business? I've never heard that Bikes Direct has brick-and-mortar stores, and there is not a hint of that on their website.
> 
> From their FAQ page:


I just reread your quote as something caught my attention. The part about "high rent, store front location" is odd. They are in The Town Center, which is the single highest retail space in Jacksonville. (Coach Leather, Cole Haan,True Religion, Tiffany's and etc.). It is a very high end outdoor mall. If that does not shed light on their quote, than I do not know what does.
Either way, I am not one of their apologists and will admit that they have nothing that appeals to me. I bought a GT Hybrid to tool around my neighborhood from them. It was a great deal and I was happy with the transaction. I ordered it on Monday and it was delivered to my door on Tuesday. (Their distribution center is in Jacksonville). I am very particular about my bikes and would not buy my road bike or mtb from them unless they carried what I was looking for. With that being said, they have a niche and the do a good job to fill it. Their bikes are ok and they provide good service. It is not a LBS though but they are not trying to be one. For many people, they have a great offering.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Shuffleman said:


> I am positive. It is about 2 miles or less from my office in Jacksonville, Florida.
> I pasted this link from a quick google search of bicycle store 32246. If you click on their web site it links right to Bikes Direct web site. I have never purchased anything from the store but I have been in a few times to try to do business with them. It has been awhile but I am quite sure that the manager told me that they had multiple locations.
> Bikesdirect


Curious. I have no opinion on the company either way. I was just always under the impression that they were an internet-only outlet. I wonder why their website doesn't mention retail outlets, and why it specifically says they sell "exclusively through the internet." Odd.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Shuffleman said:


> I am positive.


The have locations in Az as well...

Bikes Direct ? Bike Shops ? Bikes & Bicycle Repair

... and *I think* Texas.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Shuffleman said:


> Their bikes are ok and they provide good service.


Debatable. I've read posts here where customers received bikes with damaged (bent) fork dropouts. They contacted customer service and were told to use a wrench to straighten them.



Shuffleman said:


> It is not a LBS though but they are not trying to be one.


Re: fittings, sometimes their claims are a stretch... like being able to fit a rider (sight unseen) as well as an LBS. 

BD is good for folks that know their sizing requirements, know bikes in general and can either fit themselves/ maintain/ repair bikes or can get it all done locally. 

Most of the above doesn't apply to noobs or even some experienced riders I know.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PJ352 said:


> Debatable. I've read posts here where customers received bikes with damaged (bent) fork dropouts. They contacted customer service and were told to use a wrench to straighten them.
> 
> 
> Re: fittings, sometimes their claims are a stretch... like being able to fit a rider (sight unseen) as well as an LBS.
> ...


Really, please show those places on the internet that told the buyer to use a wrench to straighten out a bent dropout. In fact the internet is mostly all about positive customer service.

And yes they can fit as well as an LBS because all an LBS is going to do is take a factory made bike where there may be 3 to 6 different sizes made and ask for the inseam and put them on the one bike that comes the closest. LBS's do not sell everyone custom to order bikes that will fit the rider perfectly, all they do is get close which is all the Bikes Direct people do, and Lynskey did with me. So if you're going to cut down the way Bikes Direct fits bikes then you have cut down every single mail order bike in the industry that isn't custom built to 10 different size measurements. And I'm sure a lot of people here got bikes through some sort of mail order like various bikes from Rivendell, Waterford, Competitive Cyclist, and the list goes on.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

froze said:


> Really, please show those places on the internet that told the buyer to use a wrench to straighten out a bent dropout.


If you care to, search and you shall find. I did.



froze said:


> In fact the internet is mostly all about positive customer service.


As you asked of me, please show...



froze said:


> And yes they can fit as well as an LBS because all an LBS is going to do is take a factory made bike where there may be 3 to 6 different sizes made and ask for the inseam and put them on the one bike that comes the closest. LBS's do not sell everyone custom to order bikes that will fit the rider perfectly, all they do is get close which is all the Bikes Direct people do, and Lynskey did with me. So if you're going to cut down the way Bikes Direct fits bikes then you have cut down every single mail order bike in the industry that isn't custom built to 10 different size measurements. And I'm sure a lot of people here got bikes through some sort of mail order like various bikes from Rivendell, Waterford, Competitive Cyclist, and the list goes on.


Lots to address here, but suffice to say, you apparently haven't visited any reputable shops or dealt with many reputable fitters. They're very good at dialing in fit and addressing a riders specific requirements, fitting some with wedges, etc. None of the retailers you mentioned do the same. 

Folks (especially noobs) have to read and decide for themselves what's important. If I buy a microwave, fridge or similar, I want the most (features/ value) for my money. Since we ride bikes they aren't the same and our considerations should reflect that.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PJ352 said:


> The have locations in Az as well...
> 
> Bikes Direct ? Bike Shops ? Bikes & Bicycle Repair
> 
> ... and *I think* Texas.


The history of bikesdirect, and use of the name is convoluted. According to a VeloBusiness article from the Bikesdirect site, it was started by David Sander, who also started (or helped start) Cycle Spectrum in TX, which is now out of business in TX, but appears to have stores in FL. 

Bikesdirect.com is currently run by Mike Spratt, who identifies himself as the owner, and is the principal of Global Velo Inc, HQ'ed in Ponte Vedra FL. They were also registered as a corporation in TX with a Dallas address, but that appears to have evaporated. I believe Global Velo also holds Motobecane USA.

Bikes Direct of AZ does not appear to be directly related to bikesdirect.com. The AZ company is a dealer for Cannondale, Specialized and Giant, among others.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

More ... 

here's the Cycle Spectrum store remaining in Orlando. Indeed it is a storefront for pickup of bikesdirect.com orders in the Orlando area, and apparently a fairly complete LBS as well. The same address has historically been the registration address for Bikes Direct, with Mike Spratt as the principal.

Mike Spratt was the principal of Cycle Spectrum-BD in TX. That entity is no longer in business in TX.

Global Velo Inc, who owns the Motobecane USA trademark, is listed as Ponte Vedra with Spratt as Director.


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

There is definitely a difference in attitude between dropping over $5,000 to $500-$1,000. The fit you'll most likely get on a $500-$1,000 (or more) bike from a LBS is raising/lowering the seat no matter how reputable or competent the fitter is as most of the folks buying that level bike will not appropriate or want to have a good fit. They are more incline to have the ability of their foot touching the ground without lifting their butt (like my wife and I can't convince her otherwise). That was my experience wrenching/selling in two separate bike shops while going through college and I haven't seen anything different recently. The margins are just too low and the buyers too unsophisticated. Incidentally in 1998 when I bought my Specialized Stumpjumper Pro, that was the level of attention I got and it wasn't a cheap bike. I didn't care since it was a good sale and I know what to do to get into the general ball park.

You would also be shock what we use to do behind the shop to get it on the floor instead of the hassle of sending it back to the distributor (90% of the bike arrived just fine, no bend forks but plenty with rear stay/dropout/hanger & headset problems). One of the shop was highly regarded and the other OK. To put LBS on a pedestal above other venues is missing the mark. There are some good retailer and some bad. With mail order, you just have to do more homework. I was kind of pissed at BD for not acknowledging my purchase for three days but the bike got to me with no problems (just two days later than I wanted and in the same packaging that arrived at the shops I used to worked at). And yes, I went the LBS route before getting it from BD. No one near me had the size I need in stock (~535 effective top tube is still a popular size and stock are general low in this time of the year) in the price range I willing to pay. Since there was no instant gratification I wasn't going to pay almost twice the price for a bike with some lower components so that I don't have to get my hands dirt. Would I get another, maybe. Would I help a friend or family and save them a few, definitely. Like I said, it's not for everyone.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PJ352 said:


> If you care to, search and you shall find. I did.
> 
> 
> As you asked of me, please show...
> ...


Wait a second, you went from taking 3 to 6 sizes of a manufactured bike and finding a fit for a particular person be it mail order or at an LBS to now doing a pro fit with wedges etc for riders specific requirements...HELLO? anyone home? Anyone can take a mail order bike to a bike shop and their pro fitter do the exact same thing that would be done exactly the same had the person bought the bike from the LBS, and in both cases be charged for a pro fit. You swung and missed on that one.

By the way, I've been searching for that wrench to the dropout thing and nothing yet.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jkc said:


> There is definitely a difference in attitude between dropping over $5,000 to $500-$1,000. *The fit you'll most likely get on a $500-$1,000 (or more) bike from a LBS is raising/lowering the seat no matter how reputable or competent the fitter is *as most of the folks buying that level bike will not appropriate or want to have a good fit. They are more incline to have the ability of their foot touching the ground without lifting their butt (like my wife and I can't convince her otherwise). That was my experience wrenching/selling in two separate bike shops while going through college and I haven't seen anything different recently. The margins are just too low and the buyers too unsophisticated. Incidentally in 1998 when I bought my Specialized Stumpjumper Pro, that was the level of attention I got and it wasn't a cheap bike. I didn't care since it was a good sale and I know what to do to get into the general ball park.


Our experiences vary. At a Specialized shop I visited the fitter was BG FIT certified and provided a standard fitting (~45 minutes or so) whether someone spent ~$800 or a couple of thousand. If you paid for a BG FIT, that's what you got, no matter where you bought the bike or what you paid for it. 



jkc said:


> *You would also be shock what we use to do behind the shop to get it on the floor instead of the hassle of sending it back to the distributor* (90% of the bike arrived just fine, no bend forks but plenty with rear stay/dropout/hanger & headset problems). *One of the shop was highly regarded and the other OK. To put LBS on a pedestal above other venues is missing the mark.* There are some good retailer and some bad. With mail order, you just have to do more homework. I was kind of pissed at BD for not acknowledging my purchase for three days but the bike got to me with no problems (just two days later than I wanted and in the same packaging that arrived at the shops I used to worked at). And yes, I went the LBS route before getting it from BD. No one near me had the size I need in stock (~535 effective top tube is still a popular size and stock are general low in this time of the year) in the price range I willing to pay. Since there was no instant gratification I wasn't going to pay almost twice the price for a bike with some lower components so that I don't have to get my hands dirt. Would I get another, maybe. Would I help a friend or family and save them a few, definitely. Like I said, it's not for everyone.


I agree with some of what you offer here, but will take exception to the bold portions. You may be describing SOP's of a shop with a decent reputation, but that doesn't mean it's reputable. Reputable shops don't operate that way, because they know their actions will come back to haunt them... and eventually do.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

froze said:


> Wait a second, you went from taking 3 to 6 sizes of a manufactured bike and finding a fit for a particular person be it mail order or at an LBS to now doing a pro fit with wedges etc for riders specific requirements...HELLO? anyone home? Anyone can take a mail order bike to a bike shop and their pro fitter do the exact same thing that would be done exactly the same had the person bought the bike from the LBS, and in both cases be charged for a pro fit. You swung and missed on that one.
> 
> By the way, I've been searching for that wrench to the dropout thing and nothing yet.


I don't know where to start with this one. 

The 3-6 sizes of a manufactured bike were your words, not mine. I simply said "you apparently haven't visited any reputable shops or dealt with many reputable fitters. They're very good at dialing in fit and addressing a riders specific requirements...".

If you feel that my addition of wedges, etc. moves the discussion to pro fit status, then just disregard that comment. My point still stands.

And no, Anyone _*cannot*_ take a mail order bike to a bike shop and their pro fitter do the exact same thing that would be done exactly the same had the person bought the bike from the LBS, and in both cases be charged for a pro fit. 

Why? Because if they get sizing wrong, the fitter (no matter how talented/ experienced) won't be able to dial in fit.

Which brings us full circle to why LBS's trump online... getting sizing right so fit will be right. No misses on that score.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

froze said:


> By the way, I've been searching for that wrench to the dropout thing and nothing yet.


First hit on a Google search. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/mo...rect-customer-service-ride-report-199374.html


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

PJ352 said:


> Our experiences vary... You may be describing SOP's of a shop with a decent reputation, but that doesn't mean it's reputable. Reputable shops don't operate that way, because they know their actions will come back to haunt them... and eventually do.


Sorry should have made it clear the difference in decades. My experience was 25 years ago. Steel was still king and carbon/aluminum were new kids on the block. Yes, tolerance had gotten a lot better and not many shops today have or can work with a frame table or have mechanics that know how to work with frame and fork end alignment gauge tool. It a good thing they are not common place or needed but it's also a dumb down. There is no artistry when all one have to do is replace a cartridge.

Semantics. They have been in business for over 30 years, doing just fine, and very reputable. Try running a business where by you standards, one had to reject 10% or more of the incoming products - that's a lot of missing cash flow. That was the environment then. However, most were minor and steel is forgiving. One shop had Specialized and the other Trek as the main product line. We also started carrying Kestrel, when it was best CF money can buy and the reject rate was closer to 50%. We always sneakers when a customer would insist on that crap.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jkc said:


> Sorry should have made it clear the difference in decades. My experience was 25 years ago. Steel was still king and carbon/aluminum were new kids on the block. Yes, tolerance had gotten a lot better and not many shops today have or can work with a frame table or have mechanics that know how to work with frame and fork end alignment gauge tool. It a good thing they are not common place or needed but it's also a dumb down. There is no artistry when all one have to do is replace a cartridge.


Just to clarify, there's really not a lot of difference in decades. I've been doing adult fitness riding for 30 years and doing my own wrenching/ fits since around 1990, so I remember the days of frame alignments, non-integrated headsets and cup/cone bearing hubs. Still own (and prefer) them to cartridges. 

But, we digress.... 



jkc said:


> *Semantics. They have been in business for over 30 years, doing just fine, and very reputable*. Try running a business where by you standards, one had to reject 10% or more of the incoming products - that's a lot of missing cash flow. That was the environment then. However, most were minor and steel is forgiving. One shop had Specialized and the other Trek as the main product line. We also started carrying Kestrel, when it was best CF money can buy and the reject rate was closer to 50%. We always sneakers when a customer would insist on that crap.


Not really semantics. More, the LBS doesn't fit my description of 'reputable'. If their reject rate was as high as you say, IMO they would have done well to question why they were carrying that level of merchandise, or put in some claims to the shippers. But I'll willingly offer that I'm no businessman, and I'm sure it could be argued I'd go under in less than a year if I were. 

This is all conjecture, and (as you offered) I'm sure in the majority of cases buyers were perfectly happy with their purchases and service. And that may be all that really matters.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PJ352 said:


> I don't know where to start with this one.
> 
> The 3-6 sizes of a manufactured bike were your words, not mine. I simply said "you apparently haven't visited any reputable shops or dealt with many reputable fitters. They're very good at dialing in fit and addressing a riders specific requirements...".
> 
> ...



LOL, ok I can see you don't want to travel back over what you said, fine, then don't bad mouth mail order fit routines, because your statement completely missed it. No LBS can fit bike better than a mail order place can UNLESS they do a pro fit which you can do a pro fit on a mail order bike at any LBS. End of game now lets move on.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

froze said:


> Lies? I don't think so, they simply state suggested retail prices which LBS's rarely sell bikes at suggested retail price, so if anything their guilty of stretching the truth. But if you look at their titanium cross bikes the price they quote from a competitor is actually on the low side of the TI manufactures spectrum. I think as the price of Bikes Direct bikes go down from their most expensive to their cheapest the truth gets stretched more and more. But I did a lot of pricing on TI bikes and can tell you their pricing it on the low side for what the competition charges.
> 
> Resale value to me means nothing, not saying it doesn't mean something to you, I never sell my bikes so it's not an issue. But Trek, or any other brand, resale value is not that high anyways so if you buy a new Trek or a new Motobecane both for $1500 in 5 years the Trek is worth $500 and the Motobecane is worth about the same because it has higher quality components, thus you come out the same.


You really should read my actual post. I never claimed that BD "Lies" as in makes factually untrue statements. I used the word lies in terms of "rests".
I have done nothing but stand up for BD as I think that they are perfectly fine. I have dealt with them 1 time and it was a great experience.
I do not find your opinion to be based on fact when it comes to resale value of bikes though. You may not lend value to reselling a bike but that does not mean that other people feel the same way that you do.
It is much easier to sell a Trek or a recognized brand. The average person looking at Craig's list for his first bike knows Trek and Lance Armstrong. They are not familiar with Novara, Scatante, Motobecane or Dawes. A new buyer does not know anything about specs. They only know Trek. They see two Treks and they do not understand why one is more than the other.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Shuffleman said:


> You really should read my actual post. I never claimed that BD "Lies" as in makes factually untrue statements. I used the word lies in terms of "rests".
> I have done nothing but stand up for BD as I think that they are perfectly fine. I have dealt with them 1 time and it was a great experience.
> I do not find your opinion to be based on fact when it comes to resale value of bikes though. You may not lend value to reselling a bike but that does not mean that other people feel the same way that you do.
> It is much easier to sell a Trek or a recognized brand. The average person looking at Craig's list for his first bike knows Trek and Lance Armstrong. They are not familiar with Novara, Scatante, Motobecane or Dawes. A new buyer does not know anything about specs. They only know Trek. They see two Treks and they do not understand why one is more than the other.


I'm sorry I disagree to a point, some brands like Performance or Scatante etc don't elicite a buying impulse, I give you that, but I've seen used BD Motobecanes where I live sell for as much as an equivalent used Trek. 

Keep in mind what I said though, I said if you buy a $1500 Trek with Sora components and you buy a $1500 Motobecane with Ultegra components and wait 5 years and resell you will sell both for about the same because the Moto has higher valued components. So you gain buying the Moto new or used because the components are 2 steps up from Trek. 

You may be right about igiots buying a Trek because that's all they know or heard of but I find this to be sort of rarer than you would make us to believe. Even an igiot will buy stupid bikes like Huffy and Schwinn because everyone heard of those, heck Schwinn must be good they've been around for a hundred years and still are...right? Not right to you and me but the true igiot thinks it's right. A real biking igiot won't even know a great deal about who Armstrong is, just some dope fiend that got busted, but they won't know a thing about what bike he rode. It's kind of like me and baseball, I know that Barry Bonds got busted for performance drugs but I couldn't tell you what brand of bat he used to pound all those home runs.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

Don't discount Brand. It has value. Honda accord and Chrysler 200 are similar in cost and specs. Honda has the highest resale value of any used car. In 5 years the Honda will be easier to sell and for more money. 
I think trek is a good bike but I personally would not ride one. I would not deny their brand strength though. It is solid. I ride Colnago with Campy. The market for my bike is much smaller. If I ride with 20 people in our club they are all on trek or giant except for me. One seasoned rider thought I had Sora on my bike because of the thumb shifters. I would bet to a man very few in my group would take the colnago over the trek or giant. If my bike were on Craig's list it would not garner the attention that a trek does. I am ok with that as I will not sell the bike.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Shuffleman said:


> Don't discount Brand. It has value. Honda accord and Chrysler 200 are similar in cost and specs. Honda has the highest resale value of any used car. In 5 years the Honda will be easier to sell and for more money.
> I think trek is a good bike but I personally would not ride one. I would not deny their brand strength though. It is solid. I ride Colnago with Campy. The market for my bike is much smaller. If I ride with 20 people in our club they are all on trek or giant except for me. One seasoned rider thought I had Sora on my bike because of the thumb shifters. I would bet to a man very few in my group would take the colnago over the trek or giant. If my bike were on Craig's list it would not garner the attention that a trek does. I am ok with that as I will not sell the bike.


Actually you're mistaken, Subaru has the highest resale value not Honda; Lexus has the best resale value of the luxury lines. But I dare say that all that means nothing, I would much rather have a BMW over a Lexus; Subaru? Well from a few friends I know who owed them...they never wanted to sell them, so I guess that speaks a lot for those cars. A

Given the 3 choices of bikes you mentioned, Trek, Giant, and Colnago I am in agreement with you, I would much rather have a Colnago then the Toyota of bikes that everyone owns, I don't like cookie cutter crap. Please, before anyone gets mad at me for saying cookie cutter crap in reference to Trek, Giant, Cannondale, Specialized, etc, it's just my opinion. And the same thing for a lot of cars like Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Chevy, Chrysler...they're all cookie cutter crap.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

froze said:


> Given the 3 choices of bikes you mentioned, Trek, Giant, and Colnago I am in agreement with you, I would much rather have a Colnago then the Toyota of bikes that everyone owns, I don't like cookie cutter crap. Please, before anyone gets mad at me for saying cookie cutter crap in reference to Trek, Giant, Cannondale, Specialized, etc, it's just my opinion. And the same thing for a lot of cars like Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Chevy, Chrysler...they're all cookie cutter crap.


Ah, now we have middle ground. I have no problem with the big names. They are good bikes. I just prefer something different. I used to ride Felt and it was a good bike but I did not love it like my Colnago. 
As for cars, they hold no fascination for me. Give me reliable and I am fine. For some reason, Bikes are different. I love the Italian and German ones.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Shuffleman said:


> Ah, now we have middle ground.



That is far to sensible to actually be true on this forum.


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