# Carbon vs Alloy rims : What differences will I notice? (HED Belgium vs Zipp 202 NSW)



## tbessie (Aug 5, 2007)

Hi all...

So in building my "ultimate road bike" (Titanium), I've chosen just about all my parts, except for wheels.

For context, I'm getting rim brakes (I'm a bit retro in that way). Also, I'm 5'11" and weigh around 190 pounds. I'm only looking at clincher rims.

Originally, I was going to get a pair of Chris King HED Belgium alloy wheels. I've only ever ridden on alloy wheels, and these would be far and away better than any others I've ridden.

The other day, I ran into a group of riders on super high-end bikes, and we discussed the merits of alloy vs carbon wheels. They claimed that, at least in climbing hills (of which there are lots, this being the San Francisco area), I would feel a HUGE difference between them, and that I should get carbon wheels.

I talked to the shop where they're going to build up the bike, and the owner said he only likes Zipp for carbon wheels, since they don't heat up and deform like many others.

Looking at Zipp's selection, the 202 NSW Clincher looked to be the ones I'd want.

Researching, some folks said they felt a lot of difference; others warned about braking in wet weather; others said that the 202 NSWs flex against the rim brakes, against the cassette, against the chain stays, etc. especially when powering up hills.

I didn't see any general consensus on which is "better", or if the issues I've mentioned are real in modern wheelsets, how much it's tied to rider weight and riding style, etc.

What have you folks found is true about the difference between alloy and carbon wheelsets at this price point? Any opinions about the two specific wheelsets I'm looking at? etc.

- Tim


----------



## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

It has been my experience that half the time when someone tells you are going to feel a HUGE difference; they are selling something. Just test rode a set of Alto Cycling wheels. I ride I9's laced to H+Son rims daily. They were the cc40's. ATX Bikes just happens to be a dealer here in town. Granted I only road the for only about 5 miles but it was still enough for some initial impressions.

Was there a HUGE difference? No. They rode very nice and seem to be at least as stiff as my wheelset. They felt solid carrying speed through a tight turn and making quick directional transitions They spun up well and didn't notice flex. Weight wise the 2 wheelsets are comparable. Were they $1k better than my wheelset? No

If I were building up my one of my dream bikes (Sarto Dinamica), I would definitely consider them though. Just for something different. I am like you. I have only ridden aluminum wheels. Be skeptical when someone tells you that you are going to feel a huge difference. Test ride them for yourself and you decide.


----------



## Pisgah2000 (Nov 24, 2015)

I haven't ridden carbon wheels on that level, but did extensively test a bike with Metron Vision 40s. Compared to my EA90 SLs, they were irritatingly noisy under braking, and I didn't really notice a performance difference while climbing or accelerating. But, those wheels are roughly the same weight as the EA90s. From what I've read, the Zipps (and most carbon rim brake rims) are also noisy, and have piss-poor wet weather braking performance. That's not something that I'd trade for a ever-so-slightly lighter wheel like the 202, especially at that price point. Combine that with the relatively narrow rim and the fact that they're not particularly light (there are much, much less expensive aluminum setups that are within 20g), and I'd skip the 202. 

The King/HED setup sounds like a winner to me.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

You will NOT notice a HUGE difference. The 202 is great if you're going up and down all the time, I'd recommend the 303 NSW. Way better aerodynamics than the 202, wider rim for increased air volume. They'll be stiffer than the 202. I've worked for a Zipp sponsored team for the last bunch of years and the guys from Zipp recommended our girls use the 303 for nearly everything. I think they used 202's for maybe 2 days this entire season, and the 303 for the balance. A couple of the sprinters used 454 NSW for a few crits, but that was it. 

At your weight I don't see why you'd want the narrow 202 when you should be riding 25 or 28mm tires...they'll work better on the wide 303. Braking performance on the NSW rims is MUCH improved over the already good Zipp brake track. It does wear pads faster, but they're not too expensive in the big picture. If you can afford a new Ti bike and you're planning on dropping over 3 grand on wheels you can afford to replace pads a little more often than usual. The team has used the Zipp Platinum Pro pads for the last couple of years and they're great. Get the 303 NSW and use the biggest tires that will fit in your frame. Thank me later.


----------



## Maelochs (Aug 22, 2016)

Pisgah2000 said:


> From what I've read, the Zipps (and most carbon rim brake rims) are also noisy, and have piss-poor wet weather braking performance.


 I just bought a pair of custom wheels from a secret source ... I had not much cash and wanted max return, and I wanted the lightest wheels that could support my weight. 

I really thought CF wheels would be lighter for the strength, so that was what i looked at first. Since i was actually ready to lay out money, I wanted to do more than casually peruse a few random "reviews."

After talking/typing/researching as much as possible the answers I came up with are the same as Pisgah2000.

CF might be marginally lighter, will be just as strong, and will Probably be sketchy in the wet. Some folks were adamant that there were great in the wet with the right pads ... but if someone repeats some repeatedly In Very Loud Voice, and it is exactly the opposite of what everyone else is saying calmly and quietly ... genius, madman, or storyteller. Take your chances.

Brake track wear is another consideration. if you never ride wet weather, no big deal, but getting the pads full of grit and the tracks full of abrasive slurry and squeezing to generate heat ....

My thinking is that unless I am building a disc brake bike, CF rims don't have a strong enough balance sheet. For a disc bike, the lighter rims might offset the heavier rims and brakes somewhat, and you can go more aero for less weight. not many good 50-mm alloy rims I guess. So ... when I build an aero bike, I will go with mech discs (less weight) and deep CF rims.

For a bike where weight is an issue, like a long-distance/up-and-down bike, i will stick with the tried and true light alloy and rim brakes.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

The biggest difference you will notice is that your wallet will be much lighter with the Zipp wheels than the HED/King wheels.

I have wheels ranging from 1600g to 2000+g. I can't say I notice a huge difference in climbing ability between them.


----------



## Maelochs (Aug 22, 2016)

This is interesting. I have put lighter wheels on a few of my bikes ... and not one another. I have three bikes that all weigh about 27-28 lbs. The two with light wheels feel fast. The one with very heavy (gravel-ready overbuilt) wheels feels really slow.

(Note: by "fast" and "slow" I mean getting up to speed. Once at speed itf it is steady-state, no difference.)

I cannot rate the climbing differentials because they have radically different gearing ... 52/39x12-25, 52/42x12-28, and 50/34x11-32. I would have to calculate gear inches and force myself to use equivalent gears .... too much work for someone who cannot climb to begin with.

I am definitely a fan of lighter wheels ... I am not sure where the cut-off lies between discernible vs. placebic performance variations.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Wheels feel as they feel due the things like weight, rim stiffness, number of spokes, hub dimensions, and rim width......not the material they are made of. 
Much like frames, there is not generic answer to this question.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I agree with the rest of the forum that there will not be a HUGE difference. Some difference yes, maybe to the tune of 8s at 40 miles which is enough to not place in a race but for the club riding scene Carbons offer more problems than they solve so a smartly put together set of HED C2 is IMO the best choice.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

The Chris King HED Belgium will cost you ~$1000 and weigh 1470g.
The Zipp 202 NSW Clincher will cost you ~$3000 and weigh 1375g.

On a 1mi 5% climb, the Zipp will save you 0.6 seconds.

I don't know if I'd consider 0.6 seconds a HUGE difference. Especially at a cost of $2000 more. And with less braking performance.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I don't get carbon clinchers. There's no performance benefits. They cost a ton of money. There's braking issues. They can over heat and fail. The bottom line is -- they look cool. There's no shortage of guys around here commuting to work on their $2500 ENVE carbon wheels carrying a giant backpack. Maybe November Dave can chime in about why his company quit selling carbon clinchers. I guess if you have disc brakes, that alleviates some of the drawbacks. I find disc brakes on road bikes kind of gross -- yeah, I'm a little old fashioned. That said, I have never owned a set of carbon clinchers, so maybe there is a world of difference that I haven't experienced and probably never will. My guess is that when someone spends $2500 on a set of wheels he senses a world of difference whether it exists or not. Kind of like the great ride latex inner tubes give you. 

I think it's hard to beat a custom alloy wheel. My weight is similar to the OP, and I've been using HED Belgium rims (24/28), White Industries T11 hubs and cxray spokes on two of my bikes. They're light, they ride nice and I can get parts to fix them at any bike shop. You can get 3 sets with tubes and tires for what a set of Zipp 303 wheels cost. And I think they look cool.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

pmf said:


> Maybe November Dave can chime in about why his company quit selling carbon clinchers.


He just did that recently, like within the last month or so. If you search his posts you can probably find it.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

tlg said:


> He just did that recently, like within the last month or so. If you search his posts you can probably find it.


Yes, it was a long and convincing post about why you don't want to buy carbon clinchers. He also said that carbon clinchers and carbon tubulars are completely different performing wheels. So if you must do a carbon wheel, a tubular is what you want. Personally, I find tubular tires to be a PITA.


----------



## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

pmf said:


> I don't get carbon clinchers. There's no performance benefits. They cost a ton of money. There's braking issues. They can over heat and fail. The bottom line is -- they look cool. There's no shortage of guys around here commuting to work on their $2500 ENVE carbon wheels carrying a giant backpack. Maybe November Dave can chime in about why his company quit selling carbon clinchers. I guess if you have disc brakes, that alleviates some of the drawbacks. I find disc brakes on road bikes kind of gross -- yeah, I'm a little old fashioned. That said, I have never owned a set of carbon clinchers, so maybe there is a world of difference that I haven't experienced and probably never will. My guess is that when someone spends $2500 on a set of wheels he senses a world of difference whether it exists or not. Kind of like the great ride latex inner tubes give you.
> 
> I think it's hard to beat a custom alloy wheel. My weight is similar to the OP, and I've been using HED Belgium rims (24/28), White Industries T11 hubs and cxray spokes on two of my bikes. They're light, they ride nice and I can get parts to fix them at any bike shop. You can get 3 sets with tubes and tires for what a set of Zipp 303 wheels cost. And I think they look cool.


Well Spoken!!! Amen!!!!!


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> You will NOT notice a HUGE difference.


Unless you WANT to. The placebo effect is strong in some.

For the OP's reference, a 200 gm savings on wheels (or anything else) will let you go about 0.045 mph faster on a 6% grade at 250 watts. That's HUGE, right?


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Carbon rims are for aerodynamics.

Buying Zipp 202s is foolish.

That's like buying everything wrong with carbon clinchers and nothing that's right with them.

If you want carbon, go with deeper profiles and be prepared to completely change the way you brake.


----------



## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

I just swapped 1,400(ish) gram alloy wheels for 1,400(ish) gram carbon wheels - both clinchers and with tubed 25s. It wasn't my plan, but it ended up being a pretty good side-by-side comparison of aluminum vs carbon. 

If I could somehow ride blindfolded, I'm not 100% sure I could tell you which wheels I was on. If I went back and forth... probably... I think. The carbon wheels don't feel "faster." They don't appear to have any quantifiable performance gain (other than supposedly being more aero - but that's hard to feel). The only thing I have noticed, is that the carbon wheels seem ever so slightly more comfortable - like they're 5-8 lbs down in pressure. 

So, is that worth the cost? No... well, until I take that blindfold off ;-)


----------



## Pisgah2000 (Nov 24, 2015)

pmf said:


> I think it's hard to beat a custom alloy wheel. My weight is similar to the OP, and I've been using HED Belgium rims (24/28), White Industries T11 hubs and cxray spokes on two of my bikes. They're light, they ride nice and I can get parts to fix them at any bike shop. You can get 3 sets with tubes and tires for what a set of Zipp 303 wheels cost. And I think they look cool.


Those sound like nice wheels. Even an off-the-shelf EA90 SLX wheelset is 1400g, wide-ish, under $1000 (well under that if you find them on sale, which is pretty much all the time), plus they're ready to go from the factory if you want to go tubeless. I'd personally get something like that or a similar custom aluminum set over the Zipps, even if money wasn't a consideration. 

Zipps and other carbon wheels certainly look cooler, but the performance benefit (or deficit) doesn't make up for the ridiculous cost difference, at least for the vast majority of people out there. I guess that might be different if you're strictly going for aero, but that doesn't sound like the case here. If these were disc wheels, I'd be more inclined to go carbon though.

But, like most people, I assume most of the differences that I've noticed when upgrading road wheels is in my head. That's fine though, because unless you're hunting down a few seconds over several miles, what's in your head is really all that matters.


----------



## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I agree with you. I too am about the same height and weight of the OP and being 65yo......my "climbing days", if they ever existed for me as a FL resident, are well past behind me. 

I've done the carbon clincher/carbon tubular wheels in the past and several pairs are hanging in wheel bags in my garage. I've also crashed with carbon wheels too....a Sunday ride a few years ago resulted in both front and rear Zipp 303s getting trashed. That was a very expensive day. 

I just finished building a set of wheels based on the AForce Al33, White Industries Hubs, CXrays, 24/28 and can't wait to try them. Hurricane Irma has had me a bit distracted lately but I hope to get them on this week. For "most" riders, a well built alloy clincher fills the bill, especially when you weigh what I do and climbing is certainly not my strong suit.


----------



## Bee-an-key (May 5, 2007)

You sound like a practical guy, hence the Titanium frame as your ultimate bike. The best carbon wheels like Zipp 303 and Enve are amazing and may be twice as expensive as what you need. As high performance Aero wheels they feel great when you are going fast, similar to how the top aero frames feel at 20-25 mph, there is a difference. But if you are not racing and spending that much time on the top speed like that (because you are a normal human being) it could be a waste of money. If you are not bombing crazy fast downhills the carbon braking in the rain issue is not very important to you either. I think for $1.1 to $2.0 there is a huge amount of great aluminum wheels to choose from from Mavic, Shimano, Campy, the Hed/Chris King combo, etc.. Find something very light and you may notice a difference, maybe not. As previously stated, you want a 25-28 tire, lower pressure at that weight. I would save the $1.0 and stock up on better tires, a great pair of high end shorts and hookers, but that's just me.


----------



## tbessie (Aug 5, 2007)

Bee-an-key said:


> You sound like a practical guy, hence the Titanium frame as your ultimate bike. The best carbon wheels like Zipp 303 and Enve are amazing and may be twice as expensive as what you need. As high performance Aero wheels they feel great when you are going fast, similar to how the top aero frames feel at 20-25 mph, there is a difference. But if you are not racing and spending that much time on the top speed like that (because you are a normal human being) it could be a waste of money. If you are not bombing crazy fast downhills the carbon braking in the rain issue is not very important to you either. I think for $1.1 to $2.0 there is a huge amount of great aluminum wheels to choose from from Mavic, Shimano, Campy, the Hed/Chris King combo, etc.. Find something very light and you may notice a difference, maybe not. As previously stated, you want a 25-28 tire, lower pressure at that weight.


Thanks for your (and everyone else's) thoughts on this matter - I'm definitely learning a lot about wheels!

The reason I was looking at the 202s and 303s is because I don't need aero style wheels; I like to go fast, sure, but most of the work around here is in the climbing (San Francisco area). The way those riders I mentioned were touting their carbon wheels, I thought I'd look into them. The guy at the bike shop told me that he felt deep rim aero wheels can produce problems with cross-winds, and we have plenty of those around here, so that's another negative.

But yeah, I wouldn't be doing a lot of fast stuff on the flats; downhill, sure, I like climbing and speeding downhill, both. Given that, I'd think that what would be most important would be wheel weight; and since those two wheelsets aren't very different in weight, it probably doesn't make much difference (and would be cheaper, as you say, with the alloy wheels). I'm not racing, just your usual, reasonably experienced recreational rider.

I just called the guy who's building the bike and told him to order the HED/Belgium Plus/Chris King wheels.



> I would save the $1.0 and stock up on better tires, a great pair of high end shorts and hookers, but that's just me.


No hookers for me, but maybe some hot cyclist babe will drool over my new bike. ;-)


----------



## Maelochs (Aug 22, 2016)

tbessie said:


> No hookers for me, but maybe some hot cyclist babe will drool over my new bike. ;-)


 Seal the deal by telling her you save a bunch of money on the wheels and can thus spend more on .... "special friends."


----------



## tbessie (Aug 5, 2007)

maelochs said:


> seal the deal by telling her you save a bunch of money on the wheels and can thus spend more on .... "special friends."


Having trouble inserting smilies in there - big smiles.


----------



## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

I don't think there is much braking difference between the newer carbon rims from Zipp and Enve compared to aluminum wet or dry, and that's from personal experience. The Carbon may actually be better wet than aluminum. The exception of course is long descents where a person needs to be more careful not to overheat the rims.


----------



## cnardone (Jun 28, 2014)

tbessie said:


> I just called the guy who's building the bike and told him to order the HED/Belgium Plus/Chris King wheels.


Good for you. I ride a Lynskey r255. I had November Dave build me the same thing. 24 / 28. I went with Navy hubs to match the existing Navy King headset. Blue tape. It might be a bit hoochie mamma for some but I think my bike looks great. Ti with Black and a splash of color looks great.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

tbessie said:


> I just called the guy who's building the bike and told him to order the HED/Belgium Plus/Chris King wheels.


Good choice. Where you live, aero wheels aren't going to make any difference. I hope you're getting a compact chain ring set up with a big cassette. Your point about the wind is spot on. The closest thing I've had to carbon aero wheels were Spinergy Rev-X wheels. They were deep enough to require a valve extender. A strong cross wind really got my attention when I was riding those things. They spent many years hanging from a hook in my basement until I found out they were a hot item on the hipster market. Got $450 for a used set of them on ebay.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

tbessie said:


> I just called the guy who's building the bike and told him to order the HED/Belgium Plus/Chris King wheels.


Is "the guy building the bike" the same as the guy building your frame? If not to be safe you should call the frame builder to tell him what you plan to use for rims and tires. First, to make sure they'll fit off course. But second so he designs the frame to be optimal with what you're using.


----------



## tbessie (Aug 5, 2007)

cnardone said:


> Good for you. I ride a Lynskey r255. I had November Dave build me the same thing. 24 / 28. I went with Navy hubs to match the existing Navy King headset. Blue tape. It might be a bit hoochie mamma for some but I think my bike looks great. Ti with Black and a splash of color looks great.


I'm looking forward to seeing what mine will look like; I got the black wheels with turquoise hubs, and a Chris King headset in Turquoise to match.


----------



## tbessie (Aug 5, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Is "the guy building the bike" the same as the guy building your frame? If not to be safe you should call the frame builder to tell him what you plan to use for rims and tires. First, to make sure they'll fit off course. But second so he designs the frame to be optimal with what you're using.


Nope, different people. I'm getting the frame, then bringing it to a local bike shop where they have a mechanic who's a Campy fanatic (which I am too) to build it up.

The frame builder says this bike can take up to 28mm tires, so I think it'll be fine. They've already started building the frame, so it'd be a bit late to make any changes... not sure what changes they'd make (when I ordered the frame, they asked about what size tires and rims I planned on running; I said 23mm to 25mm, and they said that'd be fine).


----------



## weiwentg (Feb 3, 2004)

pmf said:


> Yes, it was a long and convincing post about why you don't want to buy carbon clinchers. He also said that carbon clinchers and carbon tubulars are completely different performing wheels. So if you must do a carbon wheel, a tubular is what you want. Personally, I find tubular tires to be a PITA.


Just to add to this, if you used tubulars extensively, I am pretty sure you’d be able to get used to them. But getting used to them is the problem when clinchers are convenient, easy to use, everyone else you ride around knows how to change flats on them, few people around you are familiar with how to glue tubies, etc. Plus tubular tires are more expensive and fewer shops stock them. You will want a spare, pre-glued tire under your seat for flats, plus you have to either toss an expensive tire, or unstitch the tape, extract and patch the tube, then re-stitch it, or ship it off to a place that repairs tubular tires...

In some ways, tubular tires are like electric cars. Right now, they are a PITA because there are so few charging stations. More infrastructure and they’re less of a PITA, maybe much less. But electric cars clearly get more mpg than gas cars, whereas the performance gap between tubulars and clinchers or tubeless tires has shrunk considerably.

For CX, I think tubies still can’t be beat. But that’s a different animal. From what I hear, tubeless CX tires are catching up there as well.


----------



## tbessie (Aug 5, 2007)

If I were a super rich guy, where cost were no object, I might get something like these:

GIPFELSTURM • Exact high-profile wheels for most adverse weather

... but spending $6500 for a pair of wheels is... interesting, anyway.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> Way better aerodynamics than the 202,


How much? 2 watts at 30mph? LOL I have 202s and had 303s and didn't notice a difference (303 maybe a bit stiffer). I also have Campagnolo Shamal Milles and they are brilliant. Most "aero" talk is fake less you're riding at 25+ mph all the time. 
To the OP, get the HEDs with King hubs.


----------

