# Madone vs. Venge ViAS



## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Here's the article.

Clash of the Titans: Trek Madone vs. Specialized Venge - VeloNews.com










The Venge wins in the aero department, likely, because of the 64mm wheels vs. the 50mm Bontragers. The Madone wins based on weight and comfort. I wonder if the weight issue would have been slightly different if the Venge ViAS was an S-Works model.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

ViAS is not a bike. Stop calling it the Venge ViAS, that's not it's name.

It's a scumbag marketing tool/claim about a "total aerodynamic package of our products."

Call it what it is, a Venge.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> ViAS is not a bike. Stop calling it the Venge ViAS, that's not it's name.
> 
> It's a scumbag marketing tool/claim about a "total aerodynamic package of our products."
> 
> Call it what it is, a Venge.


Interesting... seems like Specialized is pretty keen on calling it that, which to me, means that is the name. Now, you may be right, it may be all marketing jargon, but as far as I'm concerned, that's the name and that's the way I differentiate it from the 1st. generation Venge.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

The S-Works version supposedly comes in at 16.9lbs (56cm) vs the 17.55lb of the pro but that is still 1.71lbs heavier.

Looking at the wind tunnel comparisons it looks like you trade ~2 watts for 2 lbs between the two bikes and the Madone is more comfortable. 

While I find the "comfort" thing to be somewhat subjective as I don't find my current venge harsh despite seeing it described as such by many, that 1.71lbs would make a difference especially with all the hills around here. 

I can't afford either right now but it looks like the Madone has the advantage this round. An aero bike without the typical drawbacks. Maybe specialized can find some way to drop some of that weight in the future.


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## tranzformer (Dec 27, 2007)

MMsRepBike said:


> ViAS is not a bike. Stop calling it the Venge ViAS, that's not it's name.
> 
> It's a scumbag marketing tool/claim about a "total aerodynamic package of our products."
> 
> Call it what it is, a Venge.


How about we call it exactly as Specialized calls it?


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## tranzformer (Dec 27, 2007)

TricrossRich said:


> The Venge wins in the aero department, likely, because of the 64mm wheels vs. the 50mm Bontragers. The Madone wins based on weight and comfort. I wonder if the weight issue would have been slightly different if the Venge ViAS was an S-Works model.


According to the Tour magazine aero test of 2016, there really isn't a difference between the Venge ViAS or the Madone. They both tested at 204w. That is 1 watt faster than the Cervelo and Felt, both that use standard front brakes and non-intergrated cockpits. 











This graph looks more closely at the Venge ViAS vs. Madone at the full yaw sweep. Both are basically the same at low yaw. However, at higher yaw the Madone performs better. 

Yaw on x-axis, CdA on y-axis:












If I had to pick between the Trek or Specialized, not sure I would even consider the Specialized. I really don't see the benefit it offers over the Trek. Not to mention the aesthetics of the Specialized are very questionable. Either you like it or really hate it. 

I think the bigger take away is how little gain in performance Trek and Specialized managed from the highly integrated route and use of proprietary parts over the Cervelo and Felt. I'd rather go with one of those, optimize my aero road handlebar and throw on an aero front brake like a TriRig. Would be cheaper. Just as fast. Easier to wrench on. Plus not have to worry about getting a proprietary part if something ever broke on it.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Agree with you. Good post. Issue with aero bike is...if a mfr really tries to optimize frameset tube section for aerodynamics, they shoot themselves in the foot for both vertical compliance and lateral stiffness. This is where the Madone shines...decouples ride quality with a pivot at the seatpost.
Not only is the Venge heavy but doesn't have the ride quality of a Madone or a Tarmac for that matter.

The other thing about integration and in the case of the new Venge, that is the ugliest stem I have ever seen, what you will see over the next 5-10 years will be the obsoleting of any need for stem integration and internal cable routing through the stem. Sram's new E-tap and FSA new electronic groupset will obsolete this relatively new frame technology. Further, you know that Shimano and Campy will follow suit with wireless groupsets....or minimally wired and stand alone shifters and derailleurs that talk to one another without wires....where electric shifting is headed.
I like the new Madone all said, but I am not a fan of internal stem cable routing either. I am a big Spesh fan but wouldn't own the new Venge especially at the price premium




tranzformer said:


> According to the Tour magazine aero test of 2016, there really isn't a difference between the Venge ViAS or the Madone. They both tested at 204w. That is 1 watt faster than the Cervelo and Felt, both that use standard front brakes and non-intergrated cockpits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

They really like the canyon and the foil.

On a somewhat related note looks like Kittel got the first VIAS win of the season? 

I think the madone already had one with Fabian.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

interesting... Marcel Kittel and Nikolas Maes both riding Venge Viaswith standard cockpits.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BBUa9gWB7LG/?taken-by=etixx_quick_step


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

TricrossRich said:


> interesting... Marcel Kittel and Nikolas Maes both riding Venge Viaswith standard cockpits.


are you sure about Kittels' . I mean it does not have the riser bar.. but the riser bar is based on need of fit, it's necessary standard.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

spdntrxi said:


> are you sure about Kittels' . I mean it does not have the riser bar.. but the riser bar is based on need of fit, it's necessary standard.


youre looking at a PR image from weeks ago. Look at the images from the race today.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

TricrossRich said:


> youre looking at a PR image from weeks ago. Look at the images from the race today.


That doesn't seem to be the normal stem and aerofly bar (raised or flat) combo that comes standard on the bike.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

fixed my link in the earlier post... it should now take you to the etixx quick step instagram account with an image form today's race.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Yep, that is a different stem and you can see the external cables as well.

One more thought, what are the chances of them making a version of the frame where the goose neck is eliminated or made into a separate piece so that a frame running a normal stem would look more like the front end of the current venge. Maybe in the following years as the tech trickles down to lower end models of the venge?


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## mile2424 (Jul 17, 2008)

taodemon said:


> Yep, that is a different stem and you can see the external cables as well.
> 
> One more thought, what are the chances of them making a version of the frame where the goose neck is eliminated or made into a separate piece so that a frame running a normal stem would look more like the front end of the current venge. Maybe in the following years as the tech trickles down to lower end models of the venge?


They have to oblige to FSA cockpit endorsements deals, that's why they made this version with cable ports to accept an FSA cockpit


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

mile2424 said:


> They have to oblige to FSA cockpit endorsements deals, that's why they made this version with cable ports to accept an FSA cockpit


That is probably the case. I did find it kind of interesting that Tony Martin's VIAS seemed to have the normal cockpit setup instead of the FSA.
View attachment 312120


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

tranzformer said:


> According to the Tour magazine aero test of 2016, there really isn't a difference between the Venge ViAS or the Madone. They both tested at 204w. That is 1 watt faster than the Cervelo and Felt, both that use standard front brakes and non-intergrated cockpits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the takeaway, how little there was to gain out of a new generation of frame, cockpit integration etc. Aero frames are getting close to squeezing all the juice out of the orange now.
And the alternative you describe is exactly what I did, go with a 2015 S5, put a Tririg caliper on front, and clean up all the Di2 stuff, putting the wires out of sight and the main junction box inside the frame and now working on a mount that puts the garmin mainly out of the airstream.
Surely the aero caliper and wire/junction cleanup got much of the difference between the S5 and these two frames back... and it's significantly lighter than the Venge and brakes work better.
On what to call the Venge, people should refer to it in whatever way they feel like if the context makes it clear which variant they're referring to. The VIAS is so much different from the older model that you're gonna have to delineate between the two sometimes... there is something to the criticism of the smoke-and-mirrors marketing, but there will be times it HAS to be labelled as VIAS or people won't understand you.
Specialized doesn't do things half-assed and I would expected the next venge redesign to get the weight out, have better off-axis aerodynamics and better brakes.
Just hope we don't have to wait five years for it.


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## tranzformer (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah the Cervelo S5 with a few add ons to clean up the front end seems like the way to go still for a very fast bike + that is also simple enough to wrench on in your own garage.

One thing of note, I have heard several Venge ViAS riders complain of their front brake hitting the down tube under braking. This is due to the fork flexing which then allows enough movement to cause the front brake and downtube to hit. 

I don't want to rain on the parade, but the Venge ViAS seems to have some nice ideas, just the way they were implemented doesn't seem to have been that great for a large and successful company like Specialized.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

tranzformer said:


> Yeah the Cervelo S5 with a few add ons to clean up the front end seems like the way to go still for a very fast bike + that is also simple enough to wrench on in your own garage.
> 
> One thing of note, I have heard several Venge ViAS riders complain of their front brake hitting the down tube under braking. This is due to the fork flexing which then allows enough movement to cause the front brake and downtube to hit.
> 
> I don't want to rain on the parade, but the Venge ViAS seems to have some nice ideas, just the way they were implemented doesn't seem to have been that great for a large and successful company like Specialized.


All true. With the caveat that it's crucial for large, successful companies to take risks, to push R&D, and what specialized tried to do, and mainly pulled off, was great. Once you toss out the marketing BS.
It seems like even a few modest model-year tweaks could go a long way to fixing the issues, which in my mind, except for the weight, are pretty small things. 
They pushed the envelope much, much further than anyone has for awhile, and that's what I, for one, want to see out of american companies. I passed on this particular bike, even with a major discount, but it's hard not to be a fanboy of their engineering and thinking.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

There's a picture or two floating around of a new Venge frame with normal single bolt caliper mounts. I too have heard about the fork/frame hitting the downtube during braking... sounds terrible.


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## tranzformer (Dec 27, 2007)

MMsRepBike said:


> There's a picture or two floating around of a new Venge frame with normal single bolt caliper mounts.


That sounds interesting. Wonder if it is Specialized guys testing out a gen 2 version? I wonder if it is just a new fork, or if it also consists of a redone downtube to help the transition of fork to downtube aerowise.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

tranzformer said:


> That sounds interesting. Wonder if it is Specialized guys testing out a gen 2 version? I wonder if it is just a new fork, or if it also consists of a redone downtube to help the transition of fork to downtube aerowise.


Can't seem to find it again, it was late when I saw them. The downtube didn't have that little extra notch for the brake, just the cut out. Fork was all new obviously. I thought it looked pretty good. Looked more like a bog standard aero frame. Looked functional.


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## mile2424 (Jul 17, 2008)

MMsRepBike said:


> Can't seem to find it again, it was late when I saw them. The downtube didn't have that little extra notch for the brake, just the cut out. Fork was all new obviously. I thought it looked pretty good. Looked more like a bog standard aero frame. Looked functional.


interesting, as an early Vias adopter, i would love to see what the updates look like if they are coming. I haven't had any issues with my brakes rubbing, but I wonder how this would be handled if it was a real issue. First buyers are SOL and the new version comes out, or would Spesh be able to comp the original owners somehow.


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## tranzformer (Dec 27, 2007)

mile2424 said:


> interesting, as an early Vias adopter, i would love to see what the updates look like if they are coming. I haven't had any issues with my brakes rubbing, but I wonder how this would be handled if it was a real issue. First buyers are SOL and the new version comes out, or would Spesh be able to comp the original owners somehow.


My guess is you are SOL based on Specialized dealing with the nose cone Shiv. Good luck. Sell off your ViAS and upgrade to the new one when it is released if you feel the need to upgrade.


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## mile2424 (Jul 17, 2008)

tranzformer said:


> My guess is you are SOL based on Specialized dealing with the nose cone Shiv. Good luck. Sell off your ViAS and upgrade to the new one when it is released if you feel the need to upgrade.


Most likely. I am actually thinking of selling mine. Not because I don't love it. Just in the process of buying a house so might have to let it go. 56 if anyone is interested.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

56 is my size but I'm still recovering from buying a house so bike spending will be extremely limited for at least another year. I'll be sticking to slowly making upgrades to my current venge for the time being. I've been hoping to upgrade the 5700 on it for a year and a half now, might get around to it this spring.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I think it's really lame that their are 2 threads going (maybe more) one in the trek one in the specialized folder..


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

spdntrxi said:


> I think it's really lame that their are 2 threads going (maybe more) one in the trek one in the specialized folder..


Not everyone who reads the specialized sub forums frequents the trek one as well, though in the two threads there are some of the same people discussing things. Each has gone in its own direction though. Probably not that big a deal.


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## mile2424 (Jul 17, 2008)

Did a quick test ride on a Madone 9.2 today just for fun and to compare to my current Vias. I have always liked the looks of the new Madone, because it actually reminds me of a larger tubed section Venge with the added kamm tails. Obviously the 9.2 wasn't the high end carbon, but the bike still felt pretty light. I would say just over 16 lbs without actually weighing it. As most people have noted who have reviewed it, the biggest thing I noticed was the comfort compared to the Vias. I don't mind the comfort of the Vias at all, but the Madone did feel a little more plush going over slight bumps and road vibrations. The Madone's brakes did have more of a quick aggressive bite compared to the Vias. I feel like the Vias is definitely stiffer than this particular 9.2 version I rode and the Vias wants to get up and go quicker than the Madone. I think each bike has their pros and cons. I personally like the look of the Vias, because of it's Formula 1 like looks and forward thinking. Doing things differently than we have currently seen before in the industry. For some reason parts of the Madone feel cheap or plastic looking to me. The vents in the front, and the piece that covered the seatpost area. The aero bar on the Madone is very nice and comfortable. Both bikes are very nice and tough to choose which is better for your particular needs.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

mile2424 said:


> Did a quick test ride on a Madone 9.2 today just for fun and to compare to my current Vias. I have always liked the looks of the new Madone, because it actually reminds me of a larger tubed section Venge with the added kamm tails. Obviously the 9.2 wasn't the high end carbon, but the bike still felt pretty light. I would say just over 16 lbs without actually weighing it. As most people have noted who have reviewed it, the biggest thing I noticed was the comfort compared to the Vias. I don't mind the comfort of the Vias at all, but the Madone did feel a little more plush going over slight bumps and road vibrations. The Madone's brakes did have more of a quick aggressive bite compared to the Vias. I feel like the Vias is definitely stiffer than this particular 9.2 version I rode and the Vias wants to get up and go quicker than the Madone. I think each bike has their pros and cons. I personally like the look of the Vias, because of it's Formula 1 like looks and forward thinking. Doing things differently than we have currently seen before in the industry. For some reason parts of the Madone feel cheap or plastic looking to me. The vents in the front, and the piece that covered the seatpost area. The aero bar on the Madone is very nice and comfortable. Both bikes are very nice and tough to choose which is better for your particular needs.


That may be the sanest bike review I've ever read. The cycling press could learn something from the tone, logic and lack of hype.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

thumper8888 said:


> That may be the sanest bike review I've ever read. The cycling press could learn something from the tone, logic and lack of hype.


Almost Shakespearean. Only thing lacking is perfect iambic pentameter.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> Almost Shakespearean. Only thing lacking is perfect iambic pentameter.


Here's what appears to be another honest assessment:

http://youtu.be/2MtNlhdMUfM


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

And another for the Venge VIAS:


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

taodemon said:


> Yep, that is a different stem and you can see the external cables as well.
> 
> One more thought, what are the chances of them making a version of the frame where the goose neck is eliminated or made into a separate piece so that a frame running a normal stem would look more like the front end of the current venge. Maybe in the following years as the tech trickles down to lower end models of the venge?


I'd say pretty good. Pretty sure the normal brake version will be like this. Check out the picture below. Looks pretty janky to me. And even the lower spacer/bearing cap... Just doesn't look right or good.



mile2424 said:


> They have to oblige to FSA cockpit endorsements deals, that's why they made this version with cable ports to accept an FSA cockpit


Yeah, well, um... how do you explain this picture of Kittel's setup?









I don't see Vision or FSA written anywhere.


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## tranzformer (Dec 27, 2007)

^ I like that stem. It reminds me a little of the Cannondale Controltech SystemSix stem. 











On the right frame, it looks great.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Kittel won again today on the VIAS.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> I'd say pretty good. Pretty sure the normal brake version will be like this. Check out the picture below. Looks pretty janky to me. And even the lower spacer/bearing cap... Just doesn't look right or good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a Zipp stem? looks sort of like the one that Sagan was using last year... or perhaps is FSA's alternative to Zipps sprint stem, but it's a prototype and doesn't have branding yet.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

TricrossRich said:


> Is that a Zipp stem? looks sort of like the one that Sagan was using last year... or perhaps is FSA's alternative to Zipps sprint stem, but it's a prototype and doesn't have branding yet.


Probably a Zipp stem, yeah. I do not think it's the Vision one or any FSA one.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Rashadabd said:


> And another for the Venge VIAS:


Lol. Not one mention of the brakes in that "review"....... Not really a review, more like just another paid commercial.


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## aqualelaki (Sep 5, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> That may be the sanest bike review I've ever read. The cycling press could learn something from the tone, logic and lack of hype.


Well, he is not a professional reviewer. Anybody can express anything based on what he/she feels. Suck it up Man! I enjoy reading the review from anywhere, but when it comes to decision to buy my bike then I will make sure that I test ride it first. Sometimes, it is a challenge for me to test ride because I ride small frame size 50 - 52 (not too many of them in store's stock), so I had to drive for 2 hours to another state just to test ride the bike.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

goodboyr said:


> Lol. Not one mention of the brakes in that "review"....... Not really a review, more like just another paid commercial.


If you want a discussion on the brakes, it's out there and not too tought to find. Here's one:

Can the Specialized Venge ViAS really save 5 minutes over 40km? | CyclingTips

From what I can tell from my time on RBR, most of us seem consider reviews that are consistent with our views on a particular bike to be magnificent and praiseworthy, while we frequently designate reviews that present positions that oppose our opinions or which describe a bike favorably as merely "paid commercials" or advertisements. Sometimes it's true, but not as often as we suggest from what I can tell.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Velonews says brakes are not that great. And I just found it interesting that the review you've posted covered everything, except the one thing many are questioning, which is the brake performance. And now there are a number of real world reports from users that say the brakes are not that great...........


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