# Hutchinson tubeless?



## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

Anyone tried these yet? I just ordered the bulldog tire and the stans road kit, I'm going to try the tires on a standard mavix clincher rim with a rim strip and the rubber thing over top, I'll post here if I have success with them. I'd love to be able to divest myself of tubular tires.


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## elmar schrauth (Feb 19, 2007)

390 gramms 
i have them since 1,5 month , but not tetsted yet.


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## dc.cyclocross (Oct 5, 2007)

*Let us know!*



jroden said:


> Anyone tried these yet? I just ordered the bulldog tire and the stans road kit, I'm going to try the tires on a standard mavix clincher rim with a rim strip and the rubber thing over top, I'll post here if I have success with them. I'd love to be able to divest myself of tubular tires.


is this the procedure you will follow?

"Of all road rims tested the only one that burped air was the Mavic Open Pro. This older design square shaped inner cavity rim will require a 700c rim strip which we make. If after installing the two layers of yellow spoke tape your tubeless road tires are burping air. You will then need two of our 700c cyclocross rim strips. Simply remove your valve stems leave in your yellow spoke tape and stretch on the 700c cyclocross strip."


http://www.notubes.com/product_info.php/products_id/415
NoTubes.com - 44mm Tubeless Road Valve Stem


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## shortpull (Jul 27, 2005)

i've used the standard hutchinson piranha tire set up tubeless since last summer. it aired up and sealed pretty reasonably. i'd expect the 'tubeless ready' versions of the piranha and bulldog to set up even easier.

fwiw, i was using a ksyrium elite wheelset. no rim strips or yellow tape. just a tubeless valve and stans sealant.

running at 35psi, i'll occasionally burp one out on the trail. but no real issues. i wouldn't race on them. real tubulars are definitely superior. but for regular riding/training, i think it's a great setup.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

shortpull said:


> running at 35psi, i'll occasionally burp one out on the trail. but no real issues.


Burping at 35 PSI is a real issue, IMO.


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## crosser (Feb 7, 2008)

I was eager to post about the Hutchinson tubeless since I just installed a pair of the bulldogs over the weekend. 

Installation
The tires beaded very easily with a floor pump using only Stan's magic yellow tape on a pair of Shimano 105 wheels. I actually cut some valves out of some old inner tubes to see if they'd work as well as the Stan's valves and they seem fine, though the valve cores are not removeable. I put in about a scoop of Stan's solution, inflated to about 60psi to ensure they were beaded and was good to go. The tires are very well made (en France!), with no pinholes or leaking around the bead, and have not lost any pressure since the initial installation. They are also a blingtastic light grey with black sidewalls and are a fairly fat and aggressively treaded 34.

The Ride
After 14 days of rain, the local trails were pretty damp, with puddles over sandy soil and rocks. I took it easy at first to get a feel for the tires and gradually let out pressure as I gained confidence in them, ending up with about 40psi in each tire. I will go lower in the future.

On rough fireroad descents the bike felt as plush as a cross bike ever will, and I could be much more aggressive without the spectre of pinch flats to slow me down. The tires never burped air.

My only complaint has to do with the compound, which is noticeably hard, making the tires slippery on wet rocks or concrete (such as the 20% grade driveway I had to climb at the beginning of the ride). Reducing the pressure and letting the tires wear a bit has improved matters, but you still have to be careful on hard surfaces. They feel excellent on grass, dirt and sand though and hopefully will wear well. the advantage of such a compound is that it sheds mud (such as we have it around here) very well.

This morning on a local cross loop I slammed the front wheel into a concrete step concealed by the predawn light. It would have very likely pinch flatted a tubed tire, but there was no damage or burping with the tubeless. 

I generally rave about the Stan's system on my mountain bike (except for one recent explosion caused by a poor tire choice), and the Hutchinson CX tires seem to have many of the same advantages, especially for those (like myself) who live in areas too rough to risk tearing tubulars.


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## notubes_pete (Aug 7, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Burping at 35 PSI is a real issue, IMO.


Using Stan's Cyclocross strip will definitely give a better seal at low pressure then with out. The strip it not on the website yet but it is available over the phone.


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## dc.cyclocross (Oct 5, 2007)

*stan's tubeless*



notubes_pete said:


> Using Stan's Cyclocross strip will definitely give a better seal at low pressure then with out. The strip it not on the website yet but it is available over the phone.


is stan's working out recommendations for strip/tape combos for specific road rims the way they do with mtb rims? or do we just have to work it out ourselves?

marc


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## notubes_pete (Aug 7, 2007)

Currently for all cross tires we recommend the strip. For the 23c road tire the tape works fine in all except the open pro.


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## Lord Taipan (Aug 10, 2006)

I can't wait to try it on my Ksyrium SL's. I already have the valves and the sealant, just need the tires.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

I got these mounted up last night, I threw them on some Roval Pave wheels I had, which makes for kind of a heavy setup, but that's life. The Hutchinson Bulldogs are a massive tire, similar to the muds but fatter and taller. I think they will be kind of an overkill for most conditions, but I'm excited about getting them out for a low psi test run in the coming week. The installation was very easy and they held air fine overnight, I'm really impressed with them and might be even tempted to try the stand + hutchinson road tire combi for my road bike just for laughs. If they made a nice winter weight tire I'd be especially excited about it, as we have a lot of trouble from the slag they spread on the roads here, it's death on most any type of bike tire.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

I finally took these out for a ride in the woods today, I ran about 45 lbs and banged them around pretty well on some rooty, rocky trails. The tires have a reall nice ride, they are the biggest cross tires I have ever seen, much taller than a michelin mad and quite a lot wider. I think the size and bulk might be a little excessive for most racing, but I'm going to train on them and might try them for real messy, snowy sorts of conditions where a low pressure is key.

So, from my perspective the roval wheels, stans kit and hutchinson tubeless tires was a very easy setup and works as designed. I'd like to see the other tire they make, a smaller tire that looks more like a Grifo would be great. I did not get a sense for how well the sidewall flexes, maybe I can't tell the difference anyway.

I also think this kit would be fun for a road bike setup. Hopefully they will come out with a nice line of tires in the future.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

I'm losing sleep. My setup is coming:

Mavic R-Sys wheels
Stans Kit
Hutchinson tubeless bulldog tires.

Booya!

I'm excited since I'm currently running the Hutchinson Fusion 2 road tubeless on my Ksyriums and they are incredible. I run them at 85 psi and they slice through rough pavement like no other tire before. I've even taken these tires off road a few times and it was comfy.

fc


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

francois said:


> I'm losing sleep. My setup is coming:
> 
> Mavic R-Sys wheels
> Stans Kit
> ...


I'm tempted by those road tires also, what do you carry along for fixing flat tires? I found the bulldogs go on a little tight and I ended up using a metal lever a little bit. Can you use a C02 on the road?


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## Float (May 27, 2005)

I've run the Dura Ace/Hutch Fusion 2 with Fast Air sealant combo. Great set-up if you can afford using a race tire for training. I'm patiently wait for a real training/race tire to hit the market.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

I'd really love a heavy duty option for winter riding, I hate fixing flats when its cold.

The other thing with the tubeless is they are pretty heavy--if a cross tubular is 300 grams, the hutchinson is 100 more, plus 4 oz of sealant--by my math that adds a whole extra pound or more of rolling weight to the bike--am i figuring this wrong? Seems like quite a lot of weight.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

jroden said:


> I'm tempted by those road tires also, what do you carry along for fixing flat tires? I found the bulldogs go on a little tight and I ended up using a metal lever a little bit. Can you use a C02 on the road?


For fixing flat tires... a cell phone .

I'm in Norcal and I get maybe 5 flats a year on the road. These new tires are tubeless so they shouldn't pinch. Then I have Stans sealant in there to seal punctures. A slashed tire will stop me but I can't fix that anyway.

I could be wrong but I like to travel light. For big rides, I'll carry a C02. This with Stans should seal leaks. Epic group rides, I'll carry the whole tube kit. Basically, you can put a normal tube in this, no problem.

fc


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## shortpull (Jul 27, 2005)

jroden said:


> The other thing with the tubeless is they are pretty heavy--if a cross tubular is 300 grams, the hutchinson is 100 more, plus 4 oz of sealant--by my math that adds a whole extra pound or more of rolling weight to the bike--am i figuring this wrong? Seems like quite a lot of weight.


i'd question the 300 gram assumption. poking around cyclocrossworld.com, it looks like cx tubulars are more in the 350-400 gram range. add a bunch of glue to that as well.

but i don't think being lighter is necessarily the point with tubeless. at least with cx tubeless anyway. if it:
- lets you run lower tire pressures for more comfort and better handling, 
- is resistant to pinch flats, 
- is reasonably resistant to small cuts and punctures, 
- and isn't a big hassle to set up... 
seems like it's a step forward over clinchers and tubes.

again, i wouldn't say that tubeless is superior to tubulars, especially for racing cx. but i think it's worth checking out for regular trail riding.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

shortpull said:


> i'd question the 300 gram assumption. poking around cyclocrossworld.com, it looks like cx tubulars are more in the 350-400 gram range. add a bunch of glue to that as well.


If you make as fair a comparison as possble, i.e. tubular tires glued to Reflex rims vs. a tubeless system set up on OPs with whatever valves, tapes and sealants are required to keep air in, tubulars have a slight edge in the weight dept.

I do agree that weight is not really the point.

IMO, a reliable tubeless system can be a big improvement over clinchers. Comparing them to tubulars is kind of a side-show. I would rather ride a tubeless clincher into a pile of rocks than a tubed clincher. But I would rather ride a tubular in a pinch-flatty situation than either kind of clincher. Tubeless systems don't improve the _rim_. At the same time they create a higher likelihood of damaging a rim by running lower pressure.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> ... Comparing them to tubulars is kind of a side-show. I would rather ride a tubeless clincher into a pile of rocks than a tubed clincher. But I would rather ride a tubular in a pinch-flatty situation than either kind of clincher. Tubeless systems don't improve the _rim_. At the same time they create a higher likelihood of damaging a rim by running lower pressure.


You make good points.

However, comparing Tubeless systems to Tubular systems will be inevitable. If they are the two top dog tire setups available, then every individual will have to weigh them against each other when making a choice.

What if you're not cyclocrossing through a pile of rocks?? Which system is best for you? Also, on a rocky course, which system is less likely to flat? Do we know for sure?

I think it's good to have new choice both cross and road. This year, we'll learn a lot more. Also, tubeless road is in its infancy and should develop quite a bit in terms of performance and selection.

fc


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## Dr_John (Oct 11, 2005)

> I'm tempted by those road tires also, what do you carry along for fixing flat tires? I found the bulldogs go on a little tight and I ended up using a metal lever a little bit. Can you use a C02 on the road?


I've got about 2000 miles on my DA 7850/Hutchinson Tubeless set up and have had one flat. I just happened to be carrying a can of Fast-Air that ride, so I was up and running in about 2 minutes. It took me a few tries to get a good seal of the Fast-Air onto the stem. However, now that I'm unemployed and Fast-Air is too expensive, I'll just use a tube if I flat on the road. I didn't know how difficult it would be to break the tire bead/rim seal on the road to put in a tube, so that's why I was carrying the Fast-Air. Now that I've done it, I'm not worried about doing it on the road. And by the way, if I recall correctly, Hutchinson recommended using their Fast-Air sealant when installing (of course), but Shimano made no mention of it, so I didn't bother. So my total tire weight is 290 g. 

Biketiresdirect sells the Fusion2 tubeless for $49, which is a pretty good price if you take into account you don't need a tube, but they've been out of stock there and at Performance for quite some time. Not sure what the problem is. Maybe a lighter model on the way?


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

francois said:


> You make good points.
> 
> However, comparing Tubeless systems to Tubular systems will be inevitable. If they are the two top dog tire setups available, then every individual will have to weigh them against each other when making a choice.
> 
> ...


I agree, I'd like to live in a world without a tubular wheelset in my garage and in fact have dreamed of this world for many years. I think once the second generation of these tires comes out in a more standard size that they will be the replacement I've been waiting for. Until then, I'll keep my glue glopper ready for another season.


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## crosser (Feb 7, 2008)

*Tubeless Update*

I've been using the Bulldogs for about five weeks now, front and rear, and am still very pleased with them. I've had them down to 35psi and the grip is as you'd imagine far superior to any clincher. They really come to life at low pressure. No burping, no punctures even on some very rocky singletrack trail rides at speed.

They are definitely beastly for a cross tire, though, and buzz like a swarm of bees on anything resembling asphalt.

It'll be very interesting to see how this technology develops over the next few years.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

crosser said:


> I've been using the Bulldogs for about five weeks now, front and rear, and am still very pleased with them. I've had them down to 35psi and the grip is as you'd imagine far superior to any clincher. They really come to life at low pressure. No burping, no punctures even on some very rocky singletrack trail rides at speed.
> 
> They are definitely beastly for a cross tire, though, and buzz like a swarm of bees on anything resembling asphalt.
> 
> It'll be very interesting to see how this technology develops over the next few years.


Yes, I'm curious what the deal is with the size and if it was required to be so large due to the underlying technology. I wonder how the road tire would do at 40 psi?

I think these will spell the end of tubular tires in fairly short order, one more generation of tire and it's lights out for a technology I'll miss like a hole in the head.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

Thanks for the report, crosser. 

How wide do these measure in reality, and what rims are you using? Thanks in advance.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

The are both wider and taller than a michelin mud, I'm using a Roval Pave wheel, they work fine with the factory rimstrip with the rubber stans strip over top. I blew them up with a compressor and they held just fine after some shaking, I just used them today in fact.


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## crosser (Feb 7, 2008)

Qualitatively they are a bit wider than a Speedmax or Excavader 35, and definitely wider than a Mud, which measures about 34mm. They are also pretty tall when inflated, which means you almost never hit the rim, not that that would matter too much since you can't pinch flat!

Even though there are faster rolling tires out there, I wouldn't hesitate to race these given their many advantages over anything with tubes. 

I run Shimano 105 wheels and just a single layer of Stan's yellow tape. No problems inflating with a floor pump.

I would be curious to try the Piranha CX, which is billed as a semi-slick.


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## rensho (Aug 5, 2003)

francois said:


> I'm losing sleep. My setup is coming:
> 
> Mavic R-Sys wheels
> Stans Kit
> ...



Hey, get me a set!!!  Pretty please...


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Here's the monster tire. It's a 34c but it's bigger than the WTB Interwolf 38c.

fc


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

could you use those calipers to compare the height also? They seem very tall.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

jroden said:


> could you use those calipers to compare the height also? They seem very tall.


Yes they are taller than the WTB 38c. About 1.5mm taller. 33.2 I believe for the Hutchinsons.

fc


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

What's the story behind the bike?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

pretender said:


> What's the story behind the bike?


Brent Steelman is local and he built it for me.

I play with parts on this bike a lot but I'm not able to ride it enough because of my mtb and road 'obligations'.

But that might change now that it seems properly set up.

Easton fork... no good
Paul brakes... no good
Panaracer Cross tires... too small
WTB Interwolf tires... no good
Brooks Swift ... no good for me

Look Quartz pedals... awesome!
R-Sys wheels ... smooth.
Hutchinson Tubeless... we'll find out today.
Brooks Swallow... oh yeah
Brooks bar tape... So sweet but so hard.
Ritchey carbon bars... nice


fc


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

It's awfully nice. Just curious, why not the steel fork? Will you be racing it?

Also, do report back on those tires. Are you running them tubed or tubeless?


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

Not to get too far afield, Francois, but how does the EC90 compare with the original fork?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

pretender said:


> It's awfully nice. Just curious, why not the steel fork? Will you be racing it?
> 
> Also, do report back on those tires. Are you running them tubed or tubeless?


Why not the steel fork? Comfort and vibration absorption.

I've been trying to eek out as much comfort as possible from this bike. Dropping some weight is a factor too.

I tried the Easton fork (EC 90 slx) and was so impressed by the fork that I quickly sold my Steelman fork. Anyway, 6 months later, I hated the fork. The reason it was so comfortable was it moved fore and aft at least an inch. This affected the steering and handling of the bike adversely. It was just not the same bike. The worst part is the mild brake fork chatter caused by the Paul Neo Retro got out of hand. I changed pads, cables, wheels and the fork would just vibrate like crazy during heavy braking.

I now have the Easton fork and it is perfect. The bike steers so much better. The brake chatter would not disappear so I got the new TRP brakes. Great power, and great modulation and minimal brake chatter.

Racing... yes. Beginner cross racer and I'll try to move up quickly.

fc


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

So back to tires.....
I never run my tubulars over 35 psi....usually in the 30ish area ( Tufo flexus, dugast Rhino,Challenge Griffo).
So , what can you get those tubeless down to and not burp?
How about tire squirm?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

the mayor said:


> So back to tires.....
> I never run my tubulars over 35 psi....usually in the 30ish area ( Tufo flexus, dugast Rhino,Challenge Griffo).
> So , what can you get those tubeless down to and not burp?
> How about tire squirm?


I rode today at 40 psi.

It was so good it made me cry. Well, not quite. But I've never felt this bike perform so well. I met a couple friends on 29ers and I took the lead on a downhill dusty trail. I was going to let them pass but they couldn't catch me. Maybe they weren't that good. But I've always been tentative on this trail with this bike.

Traction was awesome. And the typical cross bike 'beating' was absent.

I'm writing an article this weekend.

How low can I get the pressure. I'll ride at 30 psi next and see. Tire squirm at 40 psi was absent. Hutchinson beefs up their sidewalls in anticipation of the low pressures

Burping... I don't think this system is going to burp. This is different from stans mtb tires where it's experimentation between incompatible tires and rims. Hutchinson tubeless stress the lock between the rim and the tire. I believe the only approved tubeless rim is Shimano. I'm using Mavic 2008 stuff since the rim profile matches really well with the tires.

In any event, I will try to wrestle the tire off the rim at 30 psi and 20 psi and see what happens. I'm not a good enough cross bike handler to exert those kind of forces while cornering.

fc


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

I do have a pair of clinchers with tubes and only run then at 35-40 psi( maybe 45 if it is real rocky) and I weigh 175 lbs.

The big gain with tubulars is that you can run them lower and get cush but still roll fast and get great traction.

That is going to be the real test for tubeless....not just doing it for the sake of not running tubes.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

the mayor said:


> I do have a pair of clinchers with tubes and only run then at 35-40 psi( maybe 45 if it is real rocky) and I weigh 175 lbs.
> 
> The big gain with tubulars is that you can run them lower and get cush but still roll fast and get great traction.
> 
> That is going to be the real test for tubeless....not just doing it for the sake of not running tubes.


Yep, my fascination with Tubeless started a month ago when folks told me to try it on the road bike for the ride quality and rolling resistance. I wasn't too interested in flat protection since I only get 3-4 flats a year on the road bike.

Well I've been riding the Hutchinsons on the road at 85 psi and they are very smooth and very fast on rough tarmac, specially concrete.

For cross, flat protection is a big plus for me since I always seem to pinch at the lower pressures. The girth of these tires is very appealing to me too.

Here's the roadie setup.

fc


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

francois said:


> In any event, I will try to wrestle the tire off the rim at 30 psi and 20 psi and see what happens. I'm not a good enough cross bike handler to exert those kind of forces while cornering.


You can easily put a lot of force on the tire by doing fast hairpins on dry grass.

Its kind of interesting that Hutchinson went the route of beefing up sidewalls to make this technology possible, since beefy casings are usually the last thing people associate with a nice riding tire.

While I have no doubt that these are superior to tubed clinchers, I would really like to hear a report from someone with a lot of experience on a variety of CX tubulars.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

francois said:


> Wh
> I now have the Easton fork and it is perfect. The bike steers so much better. The brake chatter would not disappear so I got the new TRP brakes. Great power, and great modulation and minimal brake chatter.
> 
> Racing... yes. Beginner cross racer and I'll try to move up quickly.
> ...


Did you mean you now have the Reynolds fork pictured? Anyway, I'm really excited about these tires. I'm in the process of building a commuter, and would like to use these tires. I want a handbuilt wheelset. What rims are available that don't need a strip? I want to lace something up to some 240's. Thanks.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

SleeveleSS said:


> Did you mean you now have the Reynolds fork pictured? Anyway, I'm really excited about these tires. I'm in the process of building a commuter, and would like to use these tires. I want a handbuilt wheelset. What rims are available that don't need a strip? I want to lace something up to some 240's. Thanks.


Yeah, absolutely meant I'm using Reynolds now. It's very transparent to me and it just does the job.

fc


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

What is the result of using Stan's sealant after setting up these tires with the Hutchinson fast-air? Any odd mixing going on? Did you clean out the Hutchinson stuff first?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

jmoote said:


> What is the result of using Stan's sealant after setting up these tires with the Hutchinson fast-air? Any odd mixing going on? Did you clean out the Hutchinson stuff first?


I haven't done that and I don't think I'm going to in the near future. I'm doing a product test and obviously, Hutchinson would not want that.

I installed with Fast Air and according to Hutchinson, that should seal flats. To what degree, I'm not sure since I don't know how much Fast Air foam is floating around there to attack a hole. Me seal is very good and it hardly looses air. So I don't want to break the seal to inspect how the Fast Air looks inside right now. Hutchinson also recommended I carry another Fast Air cannister on the trail.

It's pretty light, but a little bulky but I won't carry a pump and a tube for now. $12 I hear so a wee bit pricey!

fc


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

francois said:


> I installed with Fast Air and according to Hutchinson, that should seal flats. To what degree, I'm not sure since I don't know how much Fast Air foam is floating around there to attack a hole.


One way to find out. . .


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> One way to find out. . .


You have a way with words.... or photos.

I'll do it and videotape it in the name of science. I hope it seals...

fc


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

francois said:


> I hope it seals...


If it doesn't there is always Stan's.

If it does seal, I would be very interested to know if you can pump the tire to max-pressure without re-opening the hole.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

Indeed – if it’ll take a tack and re-seal good enough for max pressure, then that’s good. Stan’s will do it I’m sure. I’m not keen on using the Fast-air system beyond the one that comes with the tires – mainly due to cost but also because I’d rather have my sealant sloshing around in the tire and my air come from a pump or CO2. Stan’s has worked perfectly in mtb applications for me.


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