# Tandems & Tubulars



## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

With only an exception or one, I posted this same message on the other bike forum. The responders did not have any personal experience with clinchers. They were happy to quote one off anecdotal references. So I ask here. If there is no one with personal experience I will accept that and I will post mine when our new tandem ships and I build it in January 09.

*Does anyone have actual experience riding tubular tires on a tandem?*

With all the better cyclocross style tubulars now available there are many tires that have the requisite width to be used as a tandem tire, most can accept the higher pressures needed to accommodate the added weight of two riders and some of them are even pretty good fast rolling tires. I am not asking about the brands mentioned below specifically, I am just trying to show some of the options available. I am also not interested in experiences concerning _open tubulars_ or the special Tufo type that has beads added on to be used on clincher rims. This is just a few that I know about or have found with a cursory search of the internet. They are also listed with their tread width.

Vittoria Pave EVO (24mm)
Tufo Diamond D28, D30 (28mm, 30mm)
Dugast Silk Touring (27mm)
Dugast Cotton Touring (25mm, 29mm)
Challenge Strada (24mm)
Challenge Parigi Roubaix (27mm) 

I understand that tubulars have their own inherent risks such as improper mounting, difficulty of repair. Those things I consider details and proper mounting procedures can be learned, repairs can be left for those cold winter evenings or even sent out for repair. As a point of reference, I have ridden tubulars most of my cycling history with the exceptions of mountain bikes and the first year of my return to cycling a few years ago. I generally get as much or more life out of a high end tubular than I do out of a high end clincher. I currently ride tubulars 100% of the time on my single bikes. Now my daughter rides clinchers and not tubulars, not because she shouldn't, but as a young attractive female if she were to get a flat there are so many boys that jump at the chance to help that wouldn't know what to do with a tubular, but that's another story for another thread.

Please, no unqualified statements, like yes or no to tubulars without explanation, I am trying to learn here.


----------



## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

I have ridden tandems with tubulars. Managed to roll the front tire without crashing-after that I switched to a better glue. That was way back in the 70's on a Cuevas custom tandem. Ever since then I've ridden and owned box stock tandems and they have all come with clinchers.

I wouldn't run tubbies on our tandem but then I don't run them on our singles. 

I don't see that there would be any real problems (assuming good gluing technique) doing it except for extended loaded touring. I do agree that the best quality tubbies are better quality then the best available clinchers-which now that I think about it is a compelling reason to use tubulars on a tandem.


----------



## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*No*

Well I would say no to tubulars on a tandem. I ride a few thousand miles a year on a tandem with my wife and we use clinchers on our tandem. Also use clinchers on our singles except when racing where I use tubulars, so I have experience with both. In all my years of riding tandems and at events like MTR with 300+ tandems I have only seen one tandem in a non race setting with tubulars and this includes riding with some fast, hardcore teams.

For our 300# team I currently run a Michelin Carbon 700x25c at 120psi on the rear and a Michelin ProRace at 120psi on the front. A bit on the narrow side but it works for us. This is for fast, unladen club rides and training races in Indiana on reasonable roads with quite a bit of chip and seal but no rim busting seams.

A tandem tends to grind down a rear tire quicker than a single so I usually run a cheaper, more durable tire on the rear. From that standpoint you may find a tubular gets a bit costly for the benefits you may get. Your thoughts with regard to higher pressure do make sense as the stoker does not see the bumps coming and cannot time standing to glide over any hard bumps to avoid snake bites or rim damage. Not sure I could justify the extra cost of a tubular for this benefit.

Another argument against tubulars for tandems is the extra weight and its impact on braking and the resultant heating up of the rim and melting of glue. Something to consider depending on your terrain and brake set up.

Who do you call when you get your second flat after using your spare tubular? My wife is usually on the back and my son is off racing so there is no rescue line and good luck finding another rider to borrow a tubular from. 

Also does your stoker have the same passion (and patience) for tubulars? Is she willing to put her hand down between her legs and wipe a tire clean while you are rolling along? Willing to take the risk of a rolled tire if your glue gets soft from braking or following a flat change? Something you ought to discuss with your stoker and not just decide yourself. 

I just dont think the balance of performance, durability, price, comfort, need, want justifies using a tubular on a tandem in a non race situation. You might also search for some comments on tandem at hobbes although keep in mind they are a fairly conservative bunch and you will probably see a lot of naysayers with no experience.

Hobbes search engine:

http://search.bikelist.org/



WheresWaldo said:


> Now my daughter rides clinchers and not tubulars, not because she shouldn't, but as a young attractive female if she were to get a flat there are so many boys that jump at the chance to help that wouldn't know what to do with a tubular...


That would be fun to watch, a bunch of testosterone filled guys showing what morons they are when trying to come to her rescue. Same guys who open the hood of the car when it doesnt work and don't have a clue what they are looking at.


----------



## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

MB1 said:


> I have ridden tandems with tubulars. Managed to roll the front tire without crashing-after that I switched to a better glue. That was way back in the 70's on a Cuevas custom tandem. Ever since then I've ridden and owned box stock tandems and they have all come with clinchers.


Ah the glue thing. Yes there are some really bad glues out there, It used to be Tubasti or Clement you know that red stuff, some even used the old formulation of 3M Fast Tack. Glues are much better now and seem to hold really well without dissolving the bond to the base tape. I don't think I am going to worry much about the glue. I will make sure to use my best gluing technique as this is probably the most important factor.



MB1 said:


> I wouldn't run tubbies on our tandem but then I don't run them on our singles.


I run them 98% of the time, I would have said 100% but I do have clinchers on my mountain bike which I have ridden 4 times out of 113 rides this year.



MB1 said:


> I don't see that there would be any real problems (assuming good gluing technique) doing it except for extended loaded touring. I do agree that the best quality tubbies are better quality then the best available clinchers-which now that I think about it is a compelling reason to use tubulars on a tandem.


A full load for me is a saddle bag, spare tire, can of PitStop, a credit card or $20 bill and a cell phone. Sometimes not even the cell phone. Allow yourself to be lured by the dark side.











Keeping up with Junior said:


> Well I would say no to tubulars on a tandem. I ride a few thousand miles a year on a tandem with my wife and we use clinchers on our tandem. Also use clinchers on our singles except when racing where I use tubulars, so I have experience with both. In all my years of riding tandems and at events like MTR with 300+ tandems I have only seen one tandem in a non race setting with tubulars and this includes riding with some fast, hardcore teams.


Just because no one else is doing it on a regular basis is not a real reason to dismiss it. What if Orville or Wilbur said, we shouldn't dare to fly because no one else wants to? What if Alexander Graham Bell said that the telegraph was good enough? What if Hugh Hefner said no one really needs to see scantily clad women in pictures in a magazine? 



Keeping up with Junior said:


> For our 300# team I currently run a Michelin Carbon 700x25c at 120psi on the rear and a Michelin ProRace at 120psi on the front. A bit on the narrow side but it works for us. This is for fast, unladen club rides and training races in Indiana on reasonable roads with quite a bit of chip and seal but no rim busting seams.


 Most of the better made tubulars will allow higher pressures than this without loss of comfort as a result of the volume of air in a given space. Also note that the round shape of a tubular provides a decided benefit while cornering, you can dive into a corner and lean over much further on a tubular since it is shaped like this, *O* rather than this, *U*. Not to mention thread count and materials used in the tire carcass.



Keeping up with Junior said:


> A tandem tends to grind down a rear tire quicker than a single so I usually run a cheaper, more durable tire on the rear. From that standpoint you may find a tubular gets a bit costly for the benefits you may get. Your thoughts with regard to higher pressure do make sense as the stoker does not see the bumps coming and cannot time standing to glide over any hard bumps to avoid snake bites or rim damage. Not sure I could justify the extra cost of a tubular for this benefit.


Agreed on the cost, provided I was to use mid-priced clinchers rather than higher end clinchers. The issue is that while high-priced clinchers are really very good, the feel on the road does not compare to a high-priced tubulars. Comparing to a mid-priced clincher is another matter since most mid-priced clinchers are better than any mid-priced tubular tire (< rash generalization). Tire pressure is one of those trade off things, you can actually run much lower pressures in a tubular and not have pinch flats, or you can run higher pressures than clinchers to better support the extra weight of two riders, take your pick.



Keeping up with Junior said:


> Another argument against tubulars for tandems is the extra weight and its impact on braking and the resultant heating up of the rim and melting of glue. Something to consider depending on your terrain and brake set up.


You lost me here champ, what extra weight? Premium tubulars are as light or lighter than comparable clinchers w/latex tubes. Tubular wheels can be significantly lighter than clincher wheels at the same level of strength. Heat is heat is heat, there I said it. If your rims are hot enough to roll a tubular then they are hot enough to blow off a clincher. Heat is not a tubular issue, it is a braking technique issue.

I reread this and I think you meant the overall weight not the tire/wheel weight. Forget what I said above and focus on braking technique, its a braking issue not a tubular issue. That much heat would also blow off a clincher.



Keeping up with Junior said:


> Who do you call when you get your second flat after using your spare tubular? My wife is usually on the back and my son is off racing so there is no rescue line and good luck finding another rider to borrow a tubular from.


My advantage is that I can call my wife as she is not my stoker nor is she a cyclist.



Keeping up with Junior said:


> Also does your stoker have the same passion (and patience) for tubulars? Is she willing to put her hand down between her legs and wipe a tire clean while you are rolling along? Willing to take the risk of a rolled tire if your glue gets soft from braking or following a flat change? Something you ought to discuss with your stoker and not just decide yourself.


Huh? Why would you not in the same situation have your stoker reach down between her legs and wipe a tire clean while you are rolling along. Wiping a tire off is the same whether clincher or tubular, or are you saying that your wife would rather sit by the side of the road while you repair or replace a tube because riding through stuff is easier to deal with on a clincher? The tire change issue is valid and I will consider it, but I have had significant success with tire sealant and do carry a can of Vittoria PitStop as a first line of defense, the spare tire is option number two.




Keeping up with Junior said:


> I just don't think the balance of performance, durability, price, comfort, need, want justifies using a tubular on a tandem in a non race situation. You might also search for some comments on tandem at hobbes although keep in mind they are a fairly conservative bunch and you will probably see a lot of naysayers with no experience.


Did the search, read the comments, got the T-shirt. The mail list is populated by the same types, those with no experience and an opinion, those with an opinion that are anti-tubular, those with an opinion that are sort of pro-tubular. Same situation with Campy vs. Shimano, Compact vs. Race Double, etc. No one that I read about runs tubulars full time, some have based their opinion entirely on one incident. Much of the "facts" mentioned are out of date. Tandem and Hobbes is about as good as Wikipedia when it come to the be all end all of tandem knowledge.

_Wow, I had to edit this several times to correct mistakes, I should really learn to proofread before hitting the save button._


----------



## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Tubie or not to be*



WheresWaldo said:


> Also note that the round shape of a tubular provides a decided benefit while cornering, you can dive into a corner and lean over much further on a tubular since it is shaped like this, *O* rather than this, *U*.


Guess you need to decide if the stoker you are riding with and the rides you will be doing will allow you to take advantage of the rounded shape. The cornering advantage of tubulars is the main reason I like to race with them.



WheresWaldo said:


> Tire pressure is one of those trade off things, you can actually run much lower pressures in a tubular and not have pinch flats, or you can run higher pressures than clinchers to better support the extra weight of two riders, take your pick.


You mentioned your daughter. If you are riding with a child stoker who will be growing each year you might find the range of pressures beneficial as you can take advantage of the options as your stoker puts on more weight.




WheresWaldo said:


> You lost me here champ, what extra weight? ...Heat is heat is heat, there I said it. If your rims are hot enough to roll a tubular then they are hot enough to blow off a clincher. Heat is not a tubular issue, it is a braking technique issue.


Well the weight I was referring to was stopping a 300# rolling bike vs. a single bike. Takes a bit more friction to slow the beast down which can heat the glue in addition to the blow off issue. Just one more factor to consider. If your terrain does not require extended braking or you are running disc or a drum then not a big deal. 



WheresWaldo said:


> Huh? Why would you not in the same situation have your stoker reach down between her legs and wipe a tire clean while you are rolling along. Wiping a tire off is the same whether clincher or tubular...


Well with a tubular you get one (maybe two) chances to repair a flat on the road. After a changing a couple of clincher tubes I can start patching holes as needed so while multiple flats are annoying the potential to be stranded is lower.



WheresWaldo said:


> Tandem and Hobbes is about as good as Wikipedia when it come to the be all end all of tandem knowledge.


Not the most comprehensive of resources but you can occassionally gather a nugget of wisdom on tandem specific issues. Worth a search and then you choose what you want to believe.


----------



## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Guess you need to decide if the stoker you are riding with and the rides you will be doing will allow you to take advantage of the rounded shape. The cornering advantage of tubulars is the main reason I like to race with them.


 Stoker's only concern is going fast, although at times I have thrown our tandem into a corner that has made her a bit nervous, when we emerge she want to do it again, but only faster. Sometimes I have to be the voice of reason.




Keeping up with Junior said:


> You mentioned your daughter. If you are riding with a child stoker who will be growing each year you might find the range of pressures beneficial as you can take advantage of the options as your stoker puts on more weight.


Yes my stoker is my daughter, but she is now very mad at you for calling her a child, she is almost 18, as she reminds me daily just before calling me old.





Keeping up with Junior said:


> Well the weight I was referring to was stopping a 300# rolling bike vs. a single bike. Takes a bit more friction to slow the beast down which can heat the glue in addition to the blow off issue. Just one more factor to consider. If your terrain does not require extended braking or you are running disc or a drum then not a big deal.


Got it and corrected my mistake above.




Keeping up with Junior said:


> Well with a tubular you get one (maybe two) chances to repair a flat on the road. After a changing a couple of clincher tubes I can start patching holes as needed so while multiple flats are annoying the potential to be stranded is lower.


Absolutely, but the use of sealant has all but eliminated the smaller pinhole or slow leak type of flats. I actually know of one flat that I got in the last 7000 miles of riding and when I checked the tire it still had 45 psi, pumped it up and managed to ride that very tire another 1500 miles before the cords started showing.

BTW - I just loved the title you gave your post.:thumbsup:


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Not for nothin', but having read both threads, I'm left to wonder why you've bothered posting. You mention that you want to learn, then proceed point-by-point to argue with anyone who's facts and experiences conflict with your pre-conceived notions and opinions. 

As an example, you berate those that have brought up the issue of braking temps, mentioning that heat that would soften glue would blow a tire. Sorry, but that's flat-out wrong. First, it's a question of thermodynamics, the differentiation between temperature and heat. Softening glue requires some (not terribly high) temperature, but very little heat, because it's a conductive process straight from the full-contact rim. Generating the pressure to blow a tire takes heat - a considerable temperature over a decent amount of time, after crossing the reasonable insulating properties of rubber and rim tape. 

Moved to a practical level, let's look at single bikes. On singles, there are virtually no worries about blowing clinchers from braking heat. It's a theoretical possibility and there are occasional anecdotes, but practically speaking, it isn't a problem. But rolling tubulars due to braking heat softening glue remains a real concern amongst those that ride serious, technical downhills. On tandems, the problem is even worse. Blowoffs are a very real problem, so tubular roll-offs even moreso. 

It's convenient to say it's about poorly chosen glue on the anecdotes and to dismiss it as such. But in doing so, you are relying on the anecdotes as much as those you argue against. A simple fact: The 'good' glues are _designed _to be sensitive to heat, so they can be worked without excessive use of hazardous solvents. And tandems can generate seriously high temperatures - considerably higher than is possible than on singles. It's reasonable that the manufactures consider single brake temperature in their formulations - but tandems? I don't know definitively, but it's a reasonable concern, all things considered. 

Now, all of that is not to argue against the use of tubulars on a tandem. On the track and TT course, they're a great idea. On the ordinary roads and the ways most folk ride, they'd probably be fine. But there are significant and real drawbacks out at the edges.

Now, for strict opinion: On a single, I find the tubie vs clincher debate a bit silly. Tubies are fine for race day, but for everyday use, they haven't been worth it to me for a couple of decades. I can respect folks who don't share that opinion, but most of them have 'I'll just call my wife when I flat' sorts of opinions, which I find assinine. More importantly, whatever minor differences are perceived by tubular holdouts on singles won't translate well to the tandem. Problems aside, the long bike is just a different animal than the single. Whatever benefits tubulars have will be muted to the point of irrelevance, as I see it.

All said, build up a set of tubular wheels and enjoy them. I'm confident that you will - just as I'm confident that I wouldn't. That's really the bottom line - what you see depends entirely on where you stand.


----------



## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

danl1 said:


> Not for nothin', but having read both threads, I'm left to wonder why you've bothered posting. You mention that you want to learn, then proceed point-by-point to argue with anyone who's facts and experiences conflict with your pre-conceived notions and opinions.
> 
> As an example, you berate those that have brought up the issue of braking temps, mentioning that heat that would soften glue would blow a tire. Sorry, but that's flat-out wrong. First, it's a question of thermodynamics, the differentiation between temperature and heat. Softening glue requires some (not terribly high) temperature, but very little heat, because it's a conductive process straight from the full-contact rim. Generating the pressure to blow a tire takes heat - a considerable temperature over a decent amount of time, after crossing the reasonable insulating properties of rubber and rim tape.
> 
> ...


Okay, so I will not look at this post point by point, but I do take some exception with your conclusions, You did say I berated those that mentioned the heat issue with tubulars, please show me where I have criticized someone in anger or have scolded someone for their opinion on the heat issue. If I did that then it was certainly unintentional.

The other issue you bring up is heat, while I did suggest, rather strongly that heat enough to roll a tire would also be enough to blow a tubular, your rationale is noted and caused me to do more research. In a study conducted by C. S. Howat Ph.D., P.E which looked at tubular glue performance under heat he came up with this table:

Performance Relative to Mastik’One at Room Temperature
(Basis of the Figures - Used to Indicate Loss of Performance due to Temperature)
Adhesive ............ 23°C .... 60°C
Vittoria Mastik’One . 100 ..... 65
Continental ......... 90 ...... 45
Vittoria Gutta ...... 75 ...... 30
3M Fast Tack ........ 60 ...... 35
Clement ............. 80 ...... 15
Wolber .............. 60 ...... 20
Pana Cement ......... 50 ...... 25

The test was done by placing the tire rim section in a temperature controlled environment for 1/2 hour then at the end of this period, the torque required to roll off the tire was then measured. Each test was then scaled as a percentage of Vittoria Mastik'One.

Also when I spoke of poorly chosen glues that was not all anecdotal evidence but rather based on lab tested published data as well as personal experience and anecdotal evidence. So to imply that I am skewing my remarks without repeatable evidence is simply incorrect.

I am equally sure that you did not mean to take my remark about calling the wife out of context. I did mention that there are other methods used as a first measure in 'fixing' a tubular on the road. I also agree that this remark is rather silly.

As far as wheels and tires, I will, and I will let you know.


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

First, apologies about the 'call the wife' row. How you meant it, I can't say and didn't mean to suggest that you meant it the way the buttheads I know do. Only intended to say that it points out what I feel is the primary complaint against tubulars: They're a pain to service out on the road, and despite the mythology, there's no evidence or modality that allows one to conclude they actually flat less than clinchers. 

It could well be that your temp comments were based on more than the anecdotal evidence that you had mentioned - I was only working with the information presented. Wasn't suggesting that you were skewing anything - just that by suggesting that this was a non-issue because the evidence was anecdotal and about poor glues, is an equally fallacious argument based on the same anecdotal evidence. 

Didn't mean to suggest that you were angry or scolding, only that it didn't seem from the reading end that you were very open to opinions other than those you had previously formed. 

The research presented here on the relative temperature performance of various glues is interesting, but is only marginally relevant to the point I'm attempting to make. I don't have a link handy, but Bill McCready (Santana) reports rim temps around 220C before blowoff. If you assume linearity of temperature response, even Mastik One is scary... and linearity doesn't apply to this bit of chemistry. Of course, technique, temperment, and individual conditions matter. For what, how and where we ride, it would hardly matter - we could run Conti or Vittoria just fine. For someone in a high-performance environment, which is where my personal bias would place anyone seriously considering tubulars on a tandem, it's a legitimate concern.

Tubulars only have a meaningful comfort / performance advantage where they can be run with a significant pressure differential to the clinchers they would displace. On a tandem - at least for the weight range of our team and the tire sizes we'd prefer to run - that advantage largely disappears. Whatever remains would be muted still more by the wheelbase and force loading - at least that's my opinion.

After all the netting down, I can't see the advantages to be worth the hassles, and like it or not, they are undeniably more trouble than clinchers. Of course, I don't see the advantage on singles, save for race day use, and even then it's an open argument. 

Peace.


----------



## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

Danl1 we are good. I would not suggest that tubulars flat less, just that precautions can be used with tubulars. I think everyone here at one time or another has tried some thorn-resistant tubes or even Slime filled tubes and found out that they simply do not work as well as advertised, maybe even not at all different than regular tubes. But what I have found in my tubular experience is that sealant in a tubular tire does appear to work well and allows you to continue riding in the event of a puncture without stopping to make a specific repair. Now I don't know if I am just lucky but I have ridden over 7000 tubular miles with only one flat that I am aware of. I cannot say the same for clinchers, upon my return to cycling the first 1600 miles resulted in seven occasions that I had to stop and fix a flat. 

Of course that is anecdotal, but others that I have convinced to use sealant have reported similar results.

What I failed to mention was that using 140°F as the base the test said pressure would only increase 1 bar, not significant enough to blow off a clincher. You will notice that the same 140°F is sufficient to seriously compromise the Rim/Glue/Tire interface.

One advantage you mention in passing is the use of higher pressures. There are practical limits to the pressure needed to support a single rider and very few of the tires we use on tandems suggest maximum pressures high enough. Many tubulars are rated to accept pressures in much higher ranges and perhaps might actually be better suited to carry the loads tandems place on them. I don't really know, I would just be guessing here.

In the light of the "facts" I have at my disposal; Comfort, Weight advantage, Sealant, Ability to use higher tire pressures, Tire profile leading to better cornering performance; I am not sure that there is too much hassle to not consider tubulars at all. 

The last point to remember is that it is not always about the numbers. If we have to reduce every decision we make in our lives to essential facts and figures we have really given up on life. Sometimes we just have to do things because it makes us happy.


----------

