# Shimano 105 and Ultegra differences?



## jsidney

It seems every bike I have tried to learn about has either Shimano 105 or Ultegra mentioned.

These two names are coming up so often I am curious about the differences and how to use this information in my comparisons of bikes.

Any guidance on this is greatly appreciated.

What other names am I going to run across or are these two the only ones I really need to try and learn about?


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## AndrwSwitch

Check out shimanousa.com and sram.com for listings, ordered by pricepoint/fanciness, of their component groups.

105 and Ultegra, specifically, are pretty similar. Ultegra is more expensive. Some elements of the group are lighter. Many are prettier.


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## Peanya

The Ultegra is supposedly better shifting, better braking, and lighter weight. Many here will tell you that they can't tell a difference. You'll also see Tiagra, and SRAM Rival at those price points, possibly Force. They're all good, in all fairness. They will feel different as the frames they come on. The best advice is to test them out and see what feels the best overall to you. When you have it narrowed down, post your favorite 2 or 3 and we'll tell you the differences of those.


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## jsidney

Peanya said:


> The Ultegra is supposedly better shifting, better braking, and lighter weight. Many here will tell you that they can't tell a difference. You'll also see Tiagra, and SRAM Rival at those price points, possibly Force. They're all good, in all fairness. They will feel different as the frames they come on. The best advice is to test them out and see what feels the best overall to you. When you have it narrowed down, post your favorite 2 or 3 and we'll tell you the differences of those.


I am not going to be able to try them out, no bike stores in the area.


From what you said maybe it does not matter which one I end up with?

Wonders what out there is the most reliable are requires the least special care.


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## Tommy Walker

jsidney said:


> I am not going to be able to try them out, no bike stores in the area.
> 
> 
> From what you said maybe it does not matter which one I end up with?
> 
> Wonders what out there is the most reliable are requires the least special care.


Campagnola probably requires the most special care. Depending on what you are trying to accomplish, it probably really doesn't matter which one you end up with, let your budget dictate at this point.

I have the old Ultegra 6600 and love it and really love the look over the 105. The newer 105 is basically my Ultegra 6600. The new Ultegra 6700 is significantly better. SRAM shifters provide a little better ergonomic feel.

I suggest going Ultegra, that way you won't wonder "What If".


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## TheMCP

I have Ultegra on my bike, and I bought a bike for my wife that is a 105 / Tiagra mix. I was surprised at how similar they are. Once I got them dialed in, they both shift great. The Ultegra shifters definitely feel "sturdier" for lack of a better word, than the Tiagra shifters... but I can't say they work tons better.

Hard to say if it'll matter enough to you... thats up to you, but in my experience I was surprised at how well the "lower level" stuff worked.


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## Promocop

Sorry, contrarian here. Helped my son decide between the BMC RoadMachine with one having the 105 and the other Ultegra We each road both and BOTH of us indepedntely thought that the Ultegra was much smoother and quieter!


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## PJ352

Promocop said:


> Sorry, contrarian here. Helped my son decide between the BMC RoadMachine with *one having the 105 and the other Ultegra *We each road both and BOTH of us indepedntely thought that *the Ultegra was much smoother and quieter*!


IME that's not representative of those two groups. Once set up/ adjusted and tuned correctly, those (and many other) groups function/ perform essentially the same.


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## Promocop

Negative. There may be small differences between Durace and Ultegra but there are large differences between the shifting attributes Ultegra VS 105. IME


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## PJ352

Promocop said:


> Negative. There may be small differences between Durace and Ultegra but there are large differences between the shifting attributes Ultegra VS 105. IME


Then since you included "IME", please share the specific differences that would explain the smoother, quieter attributes you experienced, because IME I'm not aware of any.


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## bdok

Find the bike that fits you and your budget first. 105 or Ultegra will do just fine.


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## Urb

I have bikes with both. The ultegra feels slightly smoother and is lighter. Both are great so it has more to do with your financial situation rather than quality differences between the two.


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## Promocop

Reread my and other posts here. And if you can't tell the difference then go with 105. End of story


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## tihsepa

I have 3 bikes with 105 the only one that feels different is the 5700 bike. It's worse.


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## wim

*Depends.*

If your quest is becoming a stronger and faster bicycle rider, it doesn't make any difference. If the small differences in shifting feel and weight are important to you, Ultegra wins out.


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## PJ352

Promocop said:


> Reread my and other posts here. And if you can't tell the difference then go with 105. End of story


You didn't answer my question re: specific differences in the two groups, so I'll assume you are unable to cite any that would substantiate your claims. And no need to reread any posts. As you've stated, you're the contrarian here.

Re: your comment to 'go with 105'... FYI, I have one bike equipped with 5600 105 and another with 66/ 6700 Ultegra. Both function/ perform so close to the same that any differences are undiscernable. I do all my own wrenching (since ~'91) and have ridden (and worked on) everything from 600 to Sora to DA, from the mid-80's to present and what I stated earlier has held true; initial setup, adjustments and tuning are key to a groups performance. Any number of things from a slightly misaligned frame or RD hanger to a 'sticky' ferrule can have subtle effects on shifting performance or perceptions of smoothness/ refinement (or lack thereof).

That given, riding one bike with 105 and another with Ultegra and forming an opinion on that experience alone is hardly considered a representative sampling of either groups performance capabilities.


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## misterha

I've ridden 105 not sure which one but they felt perfect to me, my friend whose a more experience rider than me told me that even tiagra are fine for starting out and that once you ride more you learn that you don't need to shift as often as you think


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## Promocop

Bravo, you win. Put 105"s on your bikes then get a life. I only stated my own personal preferences for what I thought the differences are (reread the post). If you disagree so be it. I stand by my post.


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## tihsepa

Promocop said:


> Bravo, you win. Put 105"s on your bikes then get a life. I only stated my own personal preferences for what I thought the differences are (reread the post). If you disagree so be it. I stand by my post.


What are 105's?


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## paule11

SHimano 105 groupset


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## jsidney

misterha said:


> I've ridden 105 not sure which one but they felt perfect to me, my friend whose a more experience rider than me told me that even tiagra are fine for starting out and that once you ride more you learn that you don't need to shift as often as you think


Where I am at I really can't get anything so it will be time consuming for me to try different things.. It also seems to me that it is more expensive to go though several bikes or components than to try and make the right choice up front. I will be riding for a long time out of need rather than pleasure but since I have to ride I might as well have the best time out of it as possible. Time for me is a every expensive commodity so I am going to try and get it right the first time as hard as that might be.

Is there any difference in the amount of adjusting or maintenance?

If tiagra is fine to start out will it be fine for the long term or will I wish I had something else later?

I am guessing it does not mater if I have 105's or Ultegra from what I am reading.


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## PJ352

jsidney said:


> Where I am at I really can't get anything so it will be time consuming for me to try different things.. It also seems to me that it is more expensive to go though several bikes or components than to try and make the right choice up front. I will be riding for a long time out of need rather than pleasure but since I have to ride I might as well have the best time out of it as possible. Time for me is a every expensive commodity so I am going to try and get it right the first time as hard as that might be.
> 
> Is there any difference in the amount of adjusting or maintenance?
> 
> If tiagra is fine to start out will it be fine for the long term or will I wish I had something else later?
> 
> I am guessing it does not mater if I have 105's or Ultegra from what I am reading.


In answer to your first question, the answer is no. The same applies to Tiagra as the higher end groups; initial setup, adjustment and tuning dictate performance and maintenance is the same. 

Only a prophet can answer your second question, but FWIW, IMO/E Tiagra will meet the needs of most recreational riders - including those logging thousands of miles annually. From everything I've read thus far re: your intended uses, I see no reason that Tiagra will somehow fall short in meeting your needs as long as gearing matches your fitness level and riding conditions. But the same applies to all groups. 

One noteworthy difference between Tiagra and the higher end groups is that it's currently 9 speed, while the others are 10. Rumor has it that in 2012 it'll go 10 speed, so depending on if that comes to fruition (and depending on when you buy) it may or may not affect you. IMO if you have a chance to get a bike you like that's 9 speed Tiagra, I suggest considering it. 10 speed only adds a cog to the rear, tightening the ratios a little, but I've found it's hardly a dealbreaker in real world riding.

On the 105 versus Ultegra issue, as I and most others have stated, unless you want slightly lower weight (negligible, really) and a nicer finish, stay with 105. Even the earlier iteration (5600) performs on a par with the best (assuming proper setup).

Lastly, since your emphasis is to 'get it right the first time', I suggest taking some time out to make a trek to bike shops. If they're some distance, it'll take some pre-planning on your part, but while it's great to get opinions/ experiences here and elsewhere, there's really no substitute for visiting some shops, getting sized/ fitted to bikes of interest and heading out on the roads for test rides. After all this talk about Shimano groups, you might run across an SRAM or Campy equipped bike that strikes your fancy.


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## AndrwSwitch

jsidney said:


> Is there any difference in the amount of adjusting or maintenance?
> 
> If tiagra is fine to start out will it be fine for the long term or will I wish I had something else later?
> 
> I am guessing it does not mater if I have 105's or Ultegra from what I am reading.


From your other thread, you're probably not buying a bike that's expensive enough for Ultegra. So, don't worry about it.

Shimano's group sets are really designed for two kinds of riding: racing and training. That doesn't mean that they're not excellent for other purposes, but IME, people who use their bikes other ways, like for touring, pick and choose the elements of a Shimano group, or a couple of Shimano groups, and get some other components that are more in line with their application. People who ride their bikes to race or train, over distances they can cover at high-ish speeds, can think of Shimano drivetrains in terms of the entire group and be relatively well-served. People who ride their bikes as transportation, won't be in pacelines, and may not want to be committed to attacking every climb, can do better looking at the groups as collections of parts. Which parts do you really need? The shifters and derailleurs are about the only things, and IMO the shifters are the only element that has a big difference from Tiagra to Ultegra. Everything else is available from other brands, and depending on what you want from your bike, you may have to go to another brand to get it. Since you're probably buying complete, that probably means that the product designer will have specified a different selection of parts.

I guess someone already posted "find the bike that fits you and your budget first." I agree.


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## tystevens

jsidney said:


> Where I am at I really can't get anything so it will be time consuming for me to try different things.. It also seems to me that it is more expensive to go though several bikes or components than to try and make the right choice up front. I will be riding for a long time out of need rather than pleasure but since I have to ride I might as well have the best time out of it as possible. Time for me is a every expensive commodity so I am going to try and get it right the first time as hard as that might be.


What bikes are you shopping? IMO (what is IME?), it is virtually impossible to 'get it right the first time' when entering a new sport or hobby. Tough to estimate what you'll like, dislike, gravitate toward, etc., when starting out. From backpacking to building Jeeps to cycling (mtb and road) to skiing, my gear wants and needs seemed to shift continually. There is no 'perfect' product out there, only products perfect for a particular application. And that's part of the fun of it, I think. If you buy your first gear thinking it is the end-all, you'll probably be disappointed.

FWIW, I wouldn't worry about the distinction b/t Ultegra and 105. I'd focus on other elements of the bike a lot more, as either group will be plenty durable and functional. Sure, back to back, the Ultegra 'may' shift a little smoother or quicker, but a properly tuned 105 leaves little to be desired when you're out on the road with it, as opposed to back-to-back comparisions. 

Good luck!


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## techrider

I have bikes with Ultegra and 105 - they both work very smoothly. Once they are dialed in and adjusted, they will feel similar, but Ultegra gets the edge in precision feel. Having said that, the frame that it's hanging is going to make a bigger difference. For the money, go for the better frame with 105 rather than the better parts with lower frame.


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## chriscr11

does anyone have an opinion on how will the new tiagra 10 speed 2012 as on the scott cr1 2012 stack up against the 105?


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## PJ352

chriscr11 said:


> does anyone have an opinion on how will the new tiagra 10 speed 2012 as on the scott cr1 2012 stack up against the 105?


My advice would to to ride both before deciding (if possible). Since Tiagra 10 spd is new for 2012, there's not a lot of info available, but FWIW here's what I found on a quick search:
Shimano Tiagra goes 10 speed for 2012 | Product News | Cycling Weekly


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## silkroad

nice!


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## Tommy Walker

chriscr11 said:


> does anyone have an opinion on how will the new tiagra 10 speed 2012 as on the scott cr1 2012 stack up against the 105?


Looks like a response to SRAM Apex.


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## PJ352

Tommy Walker said:


> Looks like a response to SRAM Apex.


Yes, I was thinking the same when I got to the part where Shimano recommends a 12-30 cassette mated to a compact crankset.


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## chriscr11

thanks mate. yea think i might just stay safe and go 105, wait to hear more about the new tiagra. cheers


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## BostonG

I have a low end ride with Tiagra and Sora (lower than Tiagra) mix. It's perfectly fine. Looks a bit clunkier than higher end stuff but it’s not like I feel discriminated against. Like others said, if tuned right, they work perfectly well and would not hinder me much in keeping up with the Cat1’s if I had the legs, lungs, and bravado. I ride around 2k miles a year with that particular bike doing solo training rides and group rides (rides include hills - some long and steady and some short and sharp, training rides with intervals and some sprinting, etc.) so it goes through it's uses. No issues but when I save the cash, I'll go to 105 or Ultegra simply because I want to but I don't expect to be faster or have less maintenance.

I think that whatever you decide, the biggest thing you should be thinking about now is how you will maintain your ride (since you have no shops around you) for performance, longevity, and especially safety. And, whatever you get, you should expect that it'll need a tune up (derailleur adjustment and cable tightening) out of the box and then again after you put some miles on the bike (the cables will stretch). 

Moral is that if it shifts like poop, it’s most likely not due to the component level.


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## captain stubbing

105 is like still water and ultegra is sparkling water.

for what its worth ultegra weights slightly less and is a little quieter.....but it won't make you any faster, and each are as reliable as the other.

if truth be told....105 is more than adequate for 99% of persons on this forum.

but really if you think cycling is something that you will enjoy or stick with for some time go for the ultegra (so you won't get upgraditis later) if u can afford it however if you aren't sure the 105s.


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## terbennett

Like I've said before, the 105 and Ultegra are so similar, that I consider Ultegra more of a 105SL. People can say whta they will about Dura Ace, but that's probably more of the fact they didn't spend the money or couldn't spend the money. I don't know about the current lineup, but IME there is a difference between Ultegra 6600 and Dura Ace 7800. You can feel it. Even in older groups. Dura Ace lives up to it's name. Now between 105 and Ultegra, I think that the difference is even smaller. Ultegra is a bit more polished than 105 and I see it as I look at my four bikes here in front of me. Dura Ace is even more polished.


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## SilverStretch

I can't distinguish any performance or smoothness difference between my Ultegra 6700 setup and my wife's 105 5700 setup, although I might be able to if I rode hers more. I think they are both excellent. As folks have noted above, Ultegra is a bit lighter if you are really sweating grams.


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## jsidney

I was reading in another forum where someone wanted to know new 105 vs older Ultegra.

Some people where saying the 4 year old Ultegra would last more years than the 105.

Is there any truth to this?

While I am interested in performance I am slightly more interested in how often they need adjusting and how many years of hard use they will take.

I also read the negative on the Dura Ace is the titanium parts start wearing away.

I am too much of a rookie to know what is true or not.


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## sherlock

No & no. Durability is not the issue, it's about weight, and arguably better smoothness from the shifter and (mostly) front deraileur. The difference is usually fairly small in those areas.


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## vladvm

Simple 5mph incremental rule...

Tiagra or equivalent are for riders with 10mpg avg speed
105 or equivalent are for riders with 15 mph avg speed
Ultegra or equivalent are for riders with 20 mph avg speed
Dura Ace or equivalent are for riders 25+ mph avg speed

if you use the wrong equipment it will NOT make you faster.


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## PJ352

vladvm said:


> Simple 5mph incremental rule...
> 
> Tiagra or equivalent are for riders with 10mpg avg speed
> 105 or equivalent are for riders with 15 mph avg speed
> Ultegra or equivalent are for riders with 20 mph avg speed
> Dura Ace or equivalent are for riders 25+ mph avg speed
> 
> if you use the wrong equipment it will NOT make you faster.


Wow, based on the above 'rules' it's a wonder those 2300/ Sora riders can even remain upright while riding so slow.


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## Peanya

PJ352 said:


> Wow, based on the above 'rules' it's a wonder those 2300/ Sora riders can even remain upright while riding so slow.


I wonder that as well. That's a very funny recommendation, based on speed. I guess by that chart, I'm between 105 and Ultegra most of the time, and Dura Ace part of the time. Maybe I shouldn't have built up my retro ride with fantastic shifting Sora??


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## w-g

vladvm said:


> Simple 5mph incremental rule...
> 
> Tiagra or equivalent are for riders with 10mpg avg speed
> 105 or equivalent are for riders with 15 mph avg speed
> Ultegra or equivalent are for riders with 20 mph avg speed
> Dura Ace or equivalent are for riders 25+ mph avg speed


Uphill or downhill? :lol:


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## ecub

I have Dura-Ace (Madone 6.7) and 105 (Madone 4.7). The Dura-Ace is a step above the Ultegra. Both bikes were built by the same tech at my LBS. I do feel a difference in shifting between the 2, with the Dura-Ace being quicker and smoother. Now, before I got the Madone 4.7, I though the shifting with the 105's was quick and smooth. The big difference between the 105 vs Ultegra is weight. If you're a weight weenie and can afford it, go for the Ultegra. Otherwise, 105's are fine.


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## AndrwSwitch

vladvm said:


> Simple 5mph incremental rule...
> 
> Tiagra or equivalent are for riders with 10mpg avg speed
> 105 or equivalent are for riders with 15 mph avg speed
> Ultegra or equivalent are for riders with 20 mph avg speed
> Dura Ace or equivalent are for riders 25+ mph avg speed
> 
> if you use the wrong equipment it will NOT make you faster.


Apparently nobody should ride Dura Ace except on raceday-only criterium bikes.

Funny enough, my rec. riding puts my nicer bike's setup in exactly the right place on the chart - averages between 15 and 20, 105 drivetrain with Ultegra shifters.

But I think I'm undergeared on my commuter. It's got an old 2x6 drivetrain and I usually average right around 15 on those rides. Maybe the bike fairy will deliver me a 105 bike to abuse and lock outside, since I'm too fast.


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## Digger51

I have Ultera front derailer and the rest of the bike is 105. The 105 works very well for me.


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## jsidney

vladvm said:


> Simple 5mph incremental rule...
> 
> Tiagra or equivalent are for riders with 10mpg avg speed
> 105 or equivalent are for riders with 15 mph avg speed
> Ultegra or equivalent are for riders with 20 mph avg speed
> Dura Ace or equivalent are for riders 25+ mph avg speed
> 
> if you use the wrong equipment it will NOT make you faster.



Those speeds for what kind of distances? Maybe 100 miles then 100 miles return trip. It is nice to get input but this statement confuses me.

Not all of us are sport riders, well I am not at least but from reading I am finding out that I am not too shabby. Some of us are closer to being commuters and some of us once in awhile do some really long trips as transportation.

Don't us that ride a bike that directly involves how we make a living deserve to buy best equipment we can afford? Making a living as getting to where we need to be for our job, living as doing all of our shopping done, living as getting product out. Some of us get more miles than many of the sport riders.

I understand the competitive nature of sports, I was a college athlete and broke ever school record in my sport my high school had. One thing I found in life, work can be harder than sports for all but a tiny few. 

I learned in the 70's that many good athletes couldn't handle something like hauling hay. That is following flat bed trucks and tossing bales up for 12 hours a day. Having an undefeated season in wrestling didn't require as much conditioning as hard labor.

Maybe I would like to have Ultegra if I can ever afford it if it will make my commutes more pleasant. From what I have read some make me think it will not make long trips that much more pleasant but other peoples posts make me think it would make life a little nicer.

I have never actually measured my speed but the first time I went 100 miles I made to stops of about 15 minutes each. I am guessing I was doing better than 16 mph, maybe I could have gone faster with out a bike too big for me and it might have helped if I was not using a Wall Mart bike.. My training was daily riding out of need rather than pleasure. 

I don't qualify for ultegra by your chart but I would like to have it anyway.if it made my trips 1% more pleasant. Maybe I will get the 20 mpg average the next time I go to the city and qualify to be deserving of ultegra. 

I know I am coming off negative in this post. Some of the race guys have been very nice and helpful but maybe us commuters and those of us that ride fairly long distances could benefit as much from really good gear.

If good gear helps the 25 mph people why would it not help those a little slower?

Again I didn't mean to come off as negative as this post sounds.

Here are some observations I have made in other areas. 

In shooting I have seen average shooters have a greater percent change in group size shooting a Anschutz than a seasoned competitor over a lesser rifle because of the improved trigger and better ergonomics. I have seen the same with a Hammeri pistol in an average persons hands.

In backpacking it seems like better boots help the average backpacker than it does the seasoned hiker though it helps both.

Perhaps in bikes the 105 and Ultegra are so close that there is almost not difference but I would think that if it helps the 25 mph guys due to lighter weight and smoother shifting that that might help the lesser rider even more as they would not have to carry as much load. 

I would also think that if is good for the 25 mph rider it would also be nice for the commuter if it holds up as well as other stuff. If there is a benefit to the more expensive stuff I would think it would spill over to riders beyond the very best. If there really isn't a difference in gear than I would think it wouldn't matter to either the 25 mph guys or the 20 mph guys.

Your posts seemed elitist to me.


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## MRM1

PJ352 said:


> Wow, based on the above 'rules' it's a wonder those 2300/ Sora riders can even remain upright while riding so slow.


Yeah back in August I hit my fastest AVE speed of 18.7 on my local loop with my entry level alu Sora / 2300 equipt bike. I have yet to hit this average speed on my new Carbon Fiber 105 / 5700 bike  ... but I have been sick for 3 weeks.


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## ChrisMartin

I bought a bike with full Ultegra groupset about 5 months ago, if that helps at all. Finding it really good. Other friends suggested that unless you're a more experienced rider, you probably won't really notice a difference in riding.


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## res2580

Hi! new rider here. I bought a 2010 GT Series One ULTEGRA a month ago. I bought it for the price (great deal! $1049) and because of the Ultegra components. I love riding it, shifts more quieter than my cousin's same bike but SRAM. I even upgraded the breaks to Ultegra too. Big difference.


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## robc in wi

I'm a long time roadie and I am looking a bike purchase within the year and will be looking at SRAM Force and Rival. I have always been a Shimano guy but put SRAM X9 on my mtb last year and love it. Do a google search for Rival group review and you find articles calling it the best bang for the buck over Campy and Shimano. I am currently running a 105 drivetrain on my road bike and it works pretty well for 10,000 plus miles.


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## terbennett

w-g said:


> Uphill or downhill? :lol:


+1. I ride my 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace bikes around 21-22 mph average. Never knew that my two Dura Ace bikes were "too much bike" for me.


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## terbennett

ecub said:


> I have Dura-Ace (Madone 6.7) and 105 (Madone 4.7). The Dura-Ace is a step above the Ultegra. Both bikes were built by the same tech at my LBS. I do feel a difference in shifting between the 2, with the Dura-Ace being quicker and smoother. Now, before I got the Madone 4.7, I though the shifting with the 105's was quick and smooth. The big difference between the 105 vs Ultegra is weight. If you're a weight weenie and can afford it, go for the Ultegra. Otherwise, 105's are fine.


+1..... this is why I call Ultegra "105SL." It's lighter but not by much. However, it has some bling on it and I guess that matters a lot when determining prices. If Ultegra and 105 were tuned very well, you couldn't tell the difference. However, if you had Dura Ace tuned the same way, it would be noticeable.


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## DirtySanchez

is it ok to mix ultegra with 105?? anyone know


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## AndrwSwitch

It's fine. All of Shimano's drivetrain stuff is cross-compatible with some exceptions.
-10-speed mountain bike components can not be used with anything else.
-some Dura-Ace model years were weird. Do more research.
-I have no idea about the electronic stuff; I think it's its own little world.

My nicer bike has Ultegra shifters from about a generation ago with mostly 1999 105, and a current 105 rear derailleur. Aside from some misbehavior directly attributable to chainring wear, it works great.


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## Senior Biker

Hi, New member here. I consider the 105 to be the start of the quality equipment. That does not mean it is poor by any stretch, but the higher end Shimanos will have some preferred qualities. Persoanlly, I am moving over to SRAM. Their APEX is pretty much equal to the 105, but I think a small cut above. I particularly like the SRAM 1 control vs. Shimano's double. i think it is easier shifting left/ right. The SRAM Rival is pretty much comperable to the Shimano Ultegra.

Senir Biker


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## vladvm

just follow the 5mph rule. that should make your choice easier and have more bang for your buck. using the wrong components will NOT make you faster.


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## Silvercall

New member and really new to road bikes, I just picked up a 2009 Specalized Allez and it has Tiagra rear derailleurs and everything else appears to be Sora. As a beginner in the sport I assume that I should be okay With the Sora components or should I really invest in something more?


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## AndrwSwitch

How many rear derailleurs does your bike have? 

Seriously, though, it's fine. Keep an eye on chain wear, ride, be happy.

When you have problems shifting, figure out which component, exactly, is causing the problem. Repair it or throw it out. When you replace things, some of the time it may be worth moving up a line or a couple of lines. But if it's not broken, don't fix it.


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## Silvercall

I'm pretty sure my bike has two? A front one and a rear one? But there is so much to learn... Yesterday I had to YouTube how to change my pedals as I just picked up a pair of clip less ones. Today I'm going to try to learn how to repair a flat... Gotta love YouTube  
AndrewSwitch, thanks for the advice. The wife will be happier


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## AndrwSwitch

I'm just being a dork. You said "rear derailleur*s*."

I highly recommend parktool.com as a resource for any mechanical work. Sheldonbrown.com is a great resource for getting a little nerdier about the bike, and he also wrote some good articles for beginners.


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## easyridernyc

techrider said:


> I have bikes with Ultegra and 105 - they both work very smoothly. Once they are dialed in and adjusted, they will feel similar, but Ultegra gets the edge in precision feel. Having said that, the frame that it's hanging is going to make a bigger difference. For the money, go for the better frame with 105 rather than the better parts with lower frame.


that's a tough call, especially when it comes to the money and pound for pound on a carbon or aluminum frame. generally, i agree with the better frame and the slightly lower group, but a full ultegra groupset is worth the freight, especially if the frame is really up to snuff, which a lot of carbon frames are, in fact, _not_ these days. 

the other thing is the upgrade scenario, i upped from 5600 105 to 6700 ultegra shifters and other bits there is definitely a difference, 6700 shifting is quicker and more precise. they're both close and the 105 derailleur looks and acts like ace back there, main difference is component weight. cant speak for the 5700 105 havent ridden it. still, the component swap is something you may want to factor in, because the great thing about the shimano 105, ace, and ultegra groups is they are all compatible if you decide to upgrade. ultimately, though, i would imagine full ultegra is no joke. light, strong, and fast. repeat, if the frame can hang, look closely...


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## MYMOJO34

vladvm said:


> Simple 5mph incremental rule...
> 
> Tiagra or equivalent are for riders with $$ to spend
> 105 or equivalent are for riders with $$$ to spend
> Ultegra or equivalent are for riders with $$$$ to spend
> Dura Ace or equivalent are for riders $$$$$$$$ to spend
> 
> if you use the wrong equipment it will NOT make you faster.


FIFY.

And adding a rocket booster will, in fact, make you faster.


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## Kodi Crescent

105's worked just fine for me, but I got Ultegra's for the "snob factor".


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## Carbon_NiHM

Tommy Walker said:


> I suggest going Ultegra, that way you won't wonder "What If".


this my exact reason when I had to choose when buying my bike!


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## easyridernyc

Carbon_NiHM said:


> this my exact reason when I had to choose when buying my bike!



the thing that gets my attention is that 105, not ultegra, is used as the default group on any number of awesome carbon frames. that you repeatedly find 105 on quality frames across the board, including the new 105 on tcr, tarmac, f4, madone, synapse, you name it, that says something to me. these are all excellent, first rate, racing quality machines. you are not gonna find tiagra at entry level pro racing. 105 can hang. 

to the extent that ultegra is so much more expensive, i'm not so sure its the automatic choice, especially if you're not really looking for a racing advantage. even if you are, that extra thousand bucks is a lot, you gotta remember on a great frame with a 105, or even an ultegra, for that matter, you are almost definitely get a shyt wheelset that eventually has to go if you want to upgrade performance. if those wheels are really heavy, it can make more sense to lose 4-500 grams on a new set as opposed to the g's you might lose upgrading the group. it can be a tough choice, especially if you lose big grams on the wheels, 105 is not that much heavier....


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## PJ352

easyridernyc said:


> ...you gotta remember on a great frame with a 105, or even an ultegra, for that matter, you are almost definitely get a shyt wheelset that eventually has to go if you want to upgrade performance.* if those wheels are really heavy, it can make more sense to lose 4-500 grams on a new set as opposed to the g's you might lose upgrading the group.* it can be a tough choice, especially if you lose big grams on the wheels, 105 is not that much heavier....


Good points, IMO. At almost every price point, wheelsets are generally spec'd below what should be expected given the quality of the frameset/ components. And as you say, (paraphrasing) given the (minimal) weight differences between those components, a wheelset upgrade still yields the best bang for the buck.


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## IBOHUNT

Thanks for all the replies. It took some of the concern I had out of the picture with respect to which bike I might buy. Going to ride a couple this weekend to make up my spousal units mind on which to get me for Christmas.


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## hrumpole

The first group ride I went on, when I got shot OTB, the shifters didn't have anything to do with it. It was the motor. They need to work right (for example, frozen front DR=immediate OTB)-happened earlier this year, but I think as a guy just trying to get better the bike was not the limiter. When I was buying it, though, I was obsessed with the components (105 shifters/ultegra front/rear DR). Find one that fits, within your budget, and ride it like you stole it. Between spending the money on parts and fit, pick fit.


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## AndrwSwitch

That sounds more like the pilot. Both times, really.


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## PJ352

hrumpole said:


> ... I was obsessed with the components (105 shifters/ultegra front/rear DR). *Find one that fits*, within your budget, and ride it like you stole it. *Between spending the money on parts and fit, pick fit*.


Very well put. From my observations here on RBR, the newish members that focus only on the gear side of cycling don't usually last. Conjecture on my part, but I suspect it's due to running out of funds for upgrades, minimal (performance) payback for those upgrades or tiring of riding that ill fitting 'great value'.


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## ruizl300

How does the old Shimono 600 compare to the new stuff. I got Shimono 600 components on my Ironman Expert


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## Natedogz

easyridernyc said:


> the thing that gets my attention is that 105, not ultegra, is used as the default group on any number of awesome carbon frames. that you repeatedly find 105 on quality frames across the board, including the new 105 on tcr, tarmac, f4, madone, synapse, you name it, that says something to me. these are all excellent, first rate, racing quality machines. you are not gonna find tiagra at entry level pro racing. 105 can hang.
> 
> to the extent that ultegra is so much more expensive, i'm not so sure its the automatic choice, especially if you're not really looking for a racing advantage. even if you are, that extra thousand bucks is a lot, you gotta remember on a great frame with a 105, or even an ultegra, for that matter, you are almost definitely get a shyt wheelset that eventually has to go if you want to upgrade performance. if those wheels are really heavy, it can make more sense to lose 4-500 grams on a new set as opposed to the g's you might lose upgrading the group. it can be a tough choice, especially if you lose big grams on the wheels, 105 is not that much heavier....


That's what I've found to be true. 105 is a great pricepoint, but Sora and Tiagra work just fine when SETUP PROPERLY. 

I have Tiagra and they work fine, but I would go with 105 or SRAM to get the internal cable routing, the external cables are right in the way of my light, doesn't matter if the light is on top or under the bars!  SRAM would be my first choice, love them on my MTB and on the roadbikes I've found that they have a wider and more comfortably shaped brake hood for riding. Shimano hoods are narrower and not nearly as comfortably shaped. Of course I notice all this now that I've bought my bike and it's too late...lol. 

A friend and I were talking components the other day and we concluded that Shimano is a stodgy old company selling heavier outdated components for too much money while holding back the technology. SRAM is like the new up and coming underdog with lighter weight, faster more precise shifting, cheaper prices, and better ergonomics. How many years has internal cable routing and brifters been around, yet Shimano still insists on selling heavier components with external cable routing and clumsy shifter actuation not combined in one lever.

But really, to the OP find your budget first, research and then as said make the drive to test ride before you buy. I did and still wish I had stepped up components a little more.

Wheels, yes they always seem to be rather heavy given the rest of the bike's build. :yesnod:



hrumpole said:


> .....I think as a guy just trying to get better the bike was not the limiter. When I was buying it, though, I was obsessed with the components (105 shifters/ultegra front/rear DR). Find one that fits, within your budget, and ride it like you stole it. Between spending the money on parts and fit, pick fit.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## PJ352

ruizl300 said:


> How does the old Shimono 600 compare to the new stuff. I got Shimono 600 components on my Ironman Expert


It's Shim*a*no, but to answer your question, IMO/E it's a bulletproof, well performing group. Had it on my mid-80's Bianchi and with minimal care it lasted beyond the (shortish) life cycle of the frameset (~17 years).

A synopsis on the group can be found about 1/2 way down the linked page under *Older Group Names*:
Sheldon Brown's Shimano Bicycle Parts Page


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## Fireform

I have had Ultegra and Dura Ace on my bikes and my main riding partner has 105 on his, as do a lot of people we ride with. I don't think there's much difference in shifting between 105 and even Dura Ace, let alone Ultegra. Ultegra is a little lighter than 105, and Dura Ace is a lot lighter than Ultegra. Front shifting is very snappy with DA, especially the latest 7900 iteration. 

DA is tough stuff, very durable except for the cassettes with their four largest Ti cogs. Those cassettees are expensive, and for me the smallest of the Ti cogs is invariably the first to start skipping. Plenty of folks use Ultegra cassettes with their DA bikes.

Shimano seems to be slightly out of fashion these days, lacking the high-dollar allure of Campy and the new kid appeal of SRAM, at least until the Di2 groups become more widely seen. They all work great, though. Keep them clean and adjusted and replace your chain regularly and it will go and go and go.


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## PJ352

Natedogz said:


> A friend and I were talking components the other day and we concluded that Shimano is a stodgy old company selling heavier outdated components for too much money while holding back the technology. SRAM is like the new up and coming underdog with lighter weight, faster more precise shifting, cheaper prices, and better ergonomics. How many years has internal cable routing and brifters been around, yet Shimano still insists on selling heavier components with external cable routing and clumsy shifter actuation not combined in one lever.


Arguable points, IMO. You (and your friend) may be buying into the (minimal) lighter weight/ internal cable routing/ double tap marketing hype that says it all makes SRAM better, but does it... really?

Given that a 2 lb. difference in bike weight (which is appreciably more than the difference in groups) translates to no difference in performance, and internal cable routing is purely aesthetic, offering no performance gains (and can actually be problematic due to increased cable resistance), I don't see how either qualify as 'better'. At least not in any tangible sense. 

Same goes for double tap. Personally, I find SRAM's and Shimano's to be different, with both offering advantages and disadvantages, so I don't see SRAM's as being technologically advanced in some way. And again, SRAM offers no tangible performance gains, otherwise, no pro would ride (or win) using Shimano. 

As far as faster, more precise shifting; to my knowledge, riders that have used both generally think that Shimano's system is quieter and more refined. The ones falling on the SRAM side say they prefer the higher effort and more mechanical feel (and sound) of SRAM. Again, I don't see that as 'better' (more, a preference), and no tangible performance gains.

'Better' ergonomics? Opinion..

Cheaper pricing? Shop around...

Shimano holding back on technology? Have you test ridden SRAM's equivalent of Shimano's Di2? No, no one has because (to date) it's not marketed. 

Lastly, ease of initial setup/ adjustment falls on the side of Shimano, with SRAM generally seen as finicky in FD set up. But in real world terms, when both are set up/ adjusted properly they perform on a par, just differently.

I say ride both (preferably on more than one bike) and decide from there....


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## Fireform

Considering the TDF GC podium was all-Shimano this year, it's hard to argue they're peddling inferior technology. Just sayin'.


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## velocanman

I can add a major thumbs-up for Ultegra since most of my bikes started with Ultegra. I only recently moved up to Dura Ace since my bike came with it. As pointed out there may be less difference from Ultegra to DA than from 105 to Ultegra. These differences will be primarily in weight and secondarily in "feel." 

I don't have direct experience riding 105 on my bikes, just working with it on other's bikes. It sets up easy like the higher end Shimano groups and should be durable. I'll just offer the practical suggestion that if the price point between 105 and Ultegra is important enough to you, you probably won't be dissappointed in the 105. 

I believe your frame, wheels, and tires will make more of a difference in the feel and ride of your bike.

Just don't make the mistake a friend of mine made when he compared a 105 crankset with chainrings to a Dura Ace set in my shop.


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## AndrwSwitch

I rode a bike with 600 the other day. It's a bike my friend had been riding the hell out of for many years, which I'm sure was reflected in the condition of the components. The shifter feel wasn't quite as good as new 105 or new Ultegra, but they shifted consistently and quickly.


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## TomH

My old sora bike shifted poorly when I got it.. it shifted really great after I installed good cables/housings. 

I wonder how many people get negative impressions of a group because the housings installed on those bikes are mushy. My cheapo brakes (with koolstops and good housings) stop much better than all the ultegra bikes Ive ever been on as well.


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## dgeesaman

easyridernyc said:


> the thing that gets my attention is that 105, not ultegra, is used as the default group on any number of awesome carbon frames. that you repeatedly find 105 on quality frames across the board, including the new 105 on tcr, tarmac, f4, madone, synapse, you name it, that says something to me. these are all excellent, first rate, racing quality machines. you are not gonna find tiagra at entry level pro racing. 105 can hang.
> 
> to the extent that ultegra is so much more expensive, i'm not so sure its the automatic choice, especially if you're not really looking for a racing advantage. even if you are, that extra thousand bucks is a lot, you gotta remember on a great frame with a 105, or even an ultegra, for that matter, you are almost definitely get a shyt wheelset that eventually has to go if you want to upgrade performance. if those wheels are really heavy, it can make more sense to lose 4-500 grams on a new set as opposed to the g's you might lose upgrading the group. it can be a tough choice, especially if you lose big grams on the wheels, 105 is not that much heavier....


105 is a perfectly good group and it's very similar to higher end sets, which is why it's on so many bikes. Compared to Ultegra and Dura-Ace groups, the shifters work the same, same number of gears, etc. So when you're Specialized/Trek/Giant/etc making a low-end carbon frame bike you know you'll never sell it with Tiagra at that price point. But you have to cut costs, so it's a carbon frame with pretty graphics, heavy wheels, and 105 all around.

As far as technology goes, it's a bicycle. You don't need integrated circuitry, Viton elastomers, or titanium alloys to build a good drivetrain. So IME climbing up the component ladder only saves you a little weight at great cost.

IMHO, there are a great many very good component options out there. Sram and Shimano both hit excellent price points with good interchangeability. Try both, buy the one you prefer. There is no wrong choice.

David


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## abadyam

Got 5600 and 5700 10 speed 105 on 2 bikes. IMO 105 is more than enough and feel great, Tiagra on the cross bike, gets the job done but I think the 105 feels more precise.


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## NJBiker72

TomH said:


> My old sora bike shifted poorly when I got it.. it shifted really great after I installed good cables/housings.
> 
> I wonder how many people get negative impressions of a group because the housings installed on those bikes are mushy. My cheapo brakes (with koolstops and good housings) stop much better than all the ultegra bikes Ive ever been on as well.


I hated the shifting on my old bike with Sora. When I upgraded the bike it gave me a distinct bias towards Sram. 

Not the slightest bit unhappy with changing.


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## trav16

I've used both and they feel relatively the same. Ultegra has the weight adv.


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## AndrwSwitch

TomH said:


> My cheapo brakes (with koolstops and good housings) stop much better than all the ultegra bikes Ive ever been on as well.


Just think how well your bike would stop with Ultegra brakes and good housings!

.
.
.

Actually, about the same. Unless you have stamped sheet metal single-pivot sidepulls, anyway.


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## PJ352

TomH said:


> My old sora bike shifted poorly when I got it.. it shifted really great after I installed good cables/housings.
> 
> *I wonder how many people get negative impressions of a group because the housings installed on those bikes are mushy.* My cheapo brakes (with koolstops and good housings) stop much better than all the ultegra bikes Ive ever been on as well.


Judging from some posts I've read here on RBR, a fair number. Many think throwing money at a 'problem' (as in upgrading) resolves shifting issues, when something as simple as replacing a sticky ferrule (~40 cents) might have done the same.

Another reason why being able to diagnose problems (or knowing a good wrench who can) saves riding (down) time as well as money.


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## Peanya

I wouldn't be surprised at all if shops deliberately tune the cheaper groups to shift worse than the higher-end ones. It'd sure make it much easier to get the average customer to spend more. Judging by the thread progression here, most people believe that you truly get better shifting going from 105 to Ultegra.


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## AndrwSwitch

Peanya said:


> I wouldn't be surprised at all if shops deliberately tune the cheaper groups to shift worse than the higher-end ones. It'd sure make it much easier to get the average customer to spend more. Judging by the thread progression here, most people believe that you truly get better shifting going from 105 to Ultegra.


I think the manufacturers have a hand in it too.

I can't remember who it was. But another poster mentioned that it drives Shimano's people up the wall that their inexpensive groups always get speced with even cheaper, poorly executed housings. Ironically, this probably boosts their revenue.


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