# DT Swiss rr1.1 versus Mavic open pro?



## robcr125 (Jun 9, 2009)

Hello, 
I am looking to build a wheel for cross.
looking to spend around $75 dollars for each rim.
I weigh 180 pounds and will be racing/riding in Colorado.
DT Swiss rr1.1 and Mavic open pro are two likely candidates. Any advice?


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

I highly recommend the open pro over the 1.1. The first time you try to put a tire on the 1.1 you'll understand why.


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## unclefuzzy_ss (Nov 23, 2002)

Never had trouble with my 1.1's. They're a great rim. 

Either will treat you very well. They will both build up to a super nice, strong wheel.


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## robcr125 (Jun 9, 2009)

I forgot to say I am going to try tubeless. I am pretty sure they are both compatible.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

just built up a 1.1 great rim


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## MeLikeyBikey (Aug 14, 2008)

gobes said:


> I highly recommend the open pro over the 1.1. The first time you try to put a tire on the 1.1 you'll understand why.


My thumbs are still sore from mounting a tire on Tuesday.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

If going tubeless, my understanding is the Open Pros have a deeper center channel that needs a few extra layers to fill in, so you can get a good seal. So, a bit more effort on your part. CXMag did a nice series of articles on going tubeless. Much of the content is available on their website. Might be worth a read before opening the wallet.

If spending $75 per rim, why not get something a bit lighter, like the Kinlin xr-270s or 300s? They can be had pretty easily in the $50-60 range online.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

I've used both the Open Pro and the 1.1 over the years, and yes... the 1.1 sux when it's time to mount a road tire. I've never had any trouble mounting a cx tire, but if you're planning on using a tubeless specific tire, you may find the bead too tight for easy mounting. Why not just run Stan's rims? Makes everything easier.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*just go tubular*

why go to all the hassle of setting tubeless up and wind up with an inferior set up in comparison to Tubs?
lotsa work, limited tire selection, stiffer sidewalls, higher psi and always the burp spectre
call me a cynic but I fail to see the upside


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## Bertrand (Feb 1, 2005)

I've had 1.1s for three years and I love 'em. Strong, trouble-free, etc etc.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I love my 1.1

The Michelin Jets are hard to fit the first time... Muds go on easy. Conti GP 4000 are the hardest new tire to mount.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

atpjunkie said:


> why go to all the hassle of setting tubeless up and wind up with an inferior set up in comparison to Tubs?
> lotsa work, limited tire selection, stiffer sidewalls, higher psi and always the burp spectre
> call me a cynic but I fail to see the upside


I'm not sure everyone would agree that a tubeless tire setup would be inferior to a tubular tire setup.  It depends on what aspects of the system you care most about. 

A set of good quality tubulars will set you back significantly more than a good set of tubeless tires. Plus, while you may not have as large a selection of tubeless tires to choose from, there are enough to choose from so that you can find a tire for every occasion. At least with a tubeless setup you can switch tires relatively easily, even at the race site, something you can NOT do with tubulars unless you have multiple wheelsets.

I'd go so far as to say that with the right wheelset you could be more than adequately prepared for any conditions imaginable with two readily available sets of tires, Stans Ravens or Hutchinson Pirahnas for all around riding, and Hutchinson Bulldogs for muddier conditions.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

yo mamma said:


> I'm not sure everyone would agree that a tubeless tire setup would be inferior to a tubular tire setup. It depends on what aspects of the system you care most about.


Yeah, you know, if performance has nothing to do with your priorities then it really doesn't matter


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

[removed something dumb about the OP not wanting tubeless]

Edit: Oh man I need to read slower next time.

And yeah, tubeless is better than tubulars as long as you're not interested in performance. And if you're not interested in performance, just stick with clinchers with tubes.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

yo mamma said:


> I'm not sure everyone would agree that a tubeless tire setup would be inferior to a tubular tire setup. It depends on what aspects of the system you care most about.
> 
> A set of good quality tubulars will set you back significantly more than a good set of tubeless tires. Plus, while you may not have as large a selection of tubeless tires to choose from, there are enough to choose from so that you can find a tire for every occasion. At least with a tubeless setup you can switch tires relatively easily, even at the race site, something you can NOT do with tubulars unless you have multiple wheelsets.
> 
> I'd go so far as to say that with the right wheelset you could be more than adequately prepared for any conditions imaginable with two readily available sets of tires, Stans Ravens or Hutchinson Pirahnas for all around riding, and Hutchinson Bulldogs for muddier conditions.


Nevermind that there has been significant testing with "non-tubeless" tires in a tubeless set-up with more than satisfactory results. And, worst case scenario, you can throw a tube in there and be back up and riding. Not ideal, but workable.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

robcr125 said:


> I forgot to say I am going to try tubeless. I am pretty sure they are both compatible.


Actually, the OP did mention considering tubeless as an option.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

krisdrum said:


> Actually, the OP did mention considering tubeless as an option.


@#$%#@$% reading too fast


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Not to derail this thread too much, but can the tubie lovers talk more about the "lack of performance" offered by tubeless set-ups? There seems to be some pretty strong cases for their use in my research. I do see some of the potential risks (all the systems have some sort of downside). Is the lack of performance perception coming from the potential for burping? It seems you would be able to run nearly identical low pressure tubie or tubeless for the same sized rider.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

krisdrum said:


> Not to derail this thread too much, but can the tubie lovers talk more about the "lack of performance" offered by tubeless set-ups? There seems to be some pretty strong cases for their use in my research. I do see some of the potential risks (all the systems have some sort of downside). Is the lack of performance perception coming from the potential for burping? It seems you would be able to run nearly identical low pressure tubie or tubeless for the same sized rider.


Another factor is sidewall suppleness. Makes a non-trivial difference in how the tire conforms to the terrain and provides traction. A rubber sidewall (tubless or Tufo) can't compete with something like a cotton-sidewalled Dugast (but it will last a lot longer!). So even if you can run a tubeless at the same psi, you would get better traction from the tubular.

Moreover, I'm not sure what research you've been doing, but I've never seen it suggested that you can run a tubeless cx setup at 25psi or lower, something you can do with tubies. 

I almost never go over 30 psi with my tubies and didn't flat once last year, is anyone out there running a 28psi tubeless all season without problems? Maybe I'm ignorant of what tubeless can do these days.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

colinr said:


> Another factor is sidewall suppleness. Makes a non-trivial difference in how the tire conforms to the terrain and provides traction. A rubber sidewall (tubless or Tufo) can't compete with something like a cotton-sidewalled Dugast (but it will last a lot longer!). So even if you can run a tubeless at the same psi, you would get better traction from the tubular.
> 
> Moreover, I'm not sure what research you've been doing, but I've never seen it suggested that you can run a tubeless cx setup at 25psi or lower, something you can do with tubies.
> 
> I almost never go over 30 psi with my tubies and didn't flat once last year, is anyone out there running a 28psi tubeless all season without problems? Maybe I'm ignorant of what tubeless can do these days.


Great insight, thanks Colin. I was thinking more in the 30psi range. Didn't think about going below that. Not sure I've seen anything about super low pressures like your 25. I see your point. So, tubeless can potentially bridge the gap between "no performance" clinchers and "pure performance" tubies with some advantages, but also some risks. Kind of a poor man's tubie, sorta. Maybe?


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

krisdrum said:


> Great insight, thanks Colin. I was thinking more in the 30psi range. Didn't think about going below that. Not sure I've seen anything about super low pressures like your 25. I see your point. So, tubeless can potentially bridge the gap between "no performance" clinchers and "pure performance" tubies with some advantages, but also some risks. Kind of a poor man's tubie, sorta. Maybe?


Tubeless is definitely the poor man's tubular, depending on how reliable your setup is. Prior to going tubular I raced Mud2 clinchers at 35 psi for two seasons without a flat, so I don't see a low-30 psi tubeless setup as much of a performance improvement, especially if it hurts your reliability.

One case where tubeless is a winner is out West, the land of goathead thorns, because you can run stan's sealant inside to plug the little holes they cause. But then again, you can put stans in your tubie.


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

Hmmm, we really need to have some sort of tubeless vs. tubular sticky. There's stuff scattered all over the internet but it would be nice to have it all in one spot. I'm still running tubes and clinchers at high psi because I don't want to flat. I know my rides could improve if I made the switch to tubeless or tubular... guess I have more reading to do.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

jmoote said:


> Yeah, you know, if performance has nothing to do with your priorities then it really doesn't matter


Right, like you can tell the difference in blind testing...


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

If you can't then you're doing something wrong. The most commonly used clinchers for tubeless applications are ~120 tpi, whereas tubulars are 3-5 times that... so yeah, there's a bit of a difference. Hand spun cotton vs. some polymer cord covered in rubber - it should be pretty obvious.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*some folks don't get it*



jmoote said:


> If you can't then you're doing something wrong. The most commonly used clinchers for tubeless applications are ~120 tpi, whereas tubulars are 3-5 times that... so yeah, there's a bit of a difference. Hand spun cotton vs. some polymer cord covered in rubber - it should be pretty obvious.


what makes a tubular so superior is the suppleness of the sidewalls
you can take the tread off a Michelin Mud and make a phenom tubular out of it

clinchers and tubeless cannot by design, ever be that supple
you can't run that low of psi
you'll never feel your entire mold to the surface you are riding over

I'll say this again. Imagine all the sex you'd ever had was witha condom
and I was saying, 'wait til you go without'
it is the only analogy that comes close

it costs less (you can find ised tub wheels cheap, check the forums here)
it's lighter and rides better


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Ha! I just bent my front rim in a water grate. Now I know the threshold.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*check here*



limba said:


> Hmmm, we really need to have some sort of tubeless vs. tubular sticky. There's stuff scattered all over the internet but it would be nice to have it all in one spot. I'm still running tubes and clinchers at high psi because I don't want to flat. I know my rides could improve if I made the switch to tubeless or tubular... guess I have more reading to do.


there's been plenty written
what it comes down to is superior traction and course feel with no threat of pinch flatting
the tires are more supple because the sidewalls have no 'responsibility of holding the tire onto the rim which both clincher and tubeless tires do

so here's some myths
Tubs are expensive: check the threads here, there are numerous poster (myself included) who have scored great tub wheelsets for UNDER $200 because most folks don't want them. I have (at last count 6 sets of tub wheelsets) and I've yet to pass the $400 mark on a purchase
So for example last buy Dura Ace Hubs to Mavic reflex 32, 3x around $200 including shipping, now add some tires (yes the tires are pricey) another $200, that's $400. Well under half the cost of a set of Mavic Ks.
Now you can also get deals on tires as well. Typically join a club that has a strong cx section and there's gonna be club discounts of one brand or 2. You also buy on ebay, classifieds, etc... and you can find tubulars at anywhere from 25% to 50% off full pop retail.

Tubs are alot of work: since I know how to glue (and it is not hard) some of my glue jobs last years. So that meansonce a tire is mounted, all you do is add air and ride. Add sealant if you get a puncture. That doesn't sound like high maintenance to me. Compared to all the pinch flats I fixed when running clinchers, I'm sure my maintenance time has dropped. 

so here's the actual truth, most folks are just scared to glue on a tire. The whole notion seems old school voodoo and are just freaked by the concept. Instead they spend weeks searching the internet figuring out which rim/tire combo works best for their tubeless set up, installing their tubeless tire and while racing the spectre of the burp weighs on their subconscious and distracts them in minute amounts when cornering, or riding off camber.
You can glue a handful of wheels on a Saturday, when my last few sets come in I will have a party. It will take me part of the day, with long breaks in between while glue sets up. Goes like this
Wake up, get coffee going, get first layer of glue on
Have some coffee maybe some breakfast, get second layer of glue on
go about my day
open a beer
a few hours later (depending on temp) add last layer of glue, mount tire, inflate, wait a bit, maybe toss them on the bike and ride around the block, hang in garage


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