# Quality of TCT Carbon Madone 4.5 vs. Cannondale Synapse5 Carbon



## saoul (Jun 30, 2008)

Although the new Madones have gotten rave reviews they mostly pertain to the OCLV carbon frames.

I test rode the Madone 4.5 and liked the new geometry but didn't think the bike had as much zip as the Synapse5 Carbon.

I'm leaning toward the Madone 4.5 over the C-Dale since I like and trust the bike shop that carries the TREK.

Can anyone comment about the TCT carbon quality?


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## eff_dee (Mar 25, 2008)

I've put 400mi on my 4.5 and am quite happy with it so far, especially considering it's my first road bike.

Although the 4.5 and 4.7 are made overseas, the frames are put together the same way as the 5 & 6 series bikes. I assume the grade of carbon used overseas is inferior to the OCLV stuff as this is an entry level model, but I can't give any specifics. 

Overall, the bike is well put together. If I go over the entire frame and examine every nook and cranny, there's the odd tiny thing I can nitpick at, but I'm sure the same can be said for most bikes. 

My Trek dealer had the bike listed at 18.5 lbs. Not sure if the Synapse is lighter, or how the geometry compares, to account for the extra zippiness you felt on the C'dale....


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## saoul (Jun 30, 2008)

*Thanks for taking time to give your input*

Much appreciated


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*the other side*

the c'dale will be stiffer in the bb and top tube region per the tour tests.
smoother and more connected feel than the trek too..
both have lifetimes so get what fits and what has the best road feel to you..
hope this helps..


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## saoul (Jun 30, 2008)

*Thanks*

Outstanding job in addressing my concern about stiffness.
Much appreciated


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

a_avery007 said:


> the c'dale will be stiffer in the bb and top tube region per the tour tests.
> smoother and more connected feel than the trek too..
> both have lifetimes so get what fits and what has the best road feel to you..
> hope this helps..


I've seen the results of the tour tests, but there were never any listings for the TCT carbons, or lower end carbons from other manufacturers. If you have them (or the link) available, please post. Thanks!


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*here you go..*

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14870&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14870&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30


http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18129

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18129

all the info is in there please don't ask me, you will find it..


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

a_avery007 said:


> http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14870&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
> 
> http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14870&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
> 
> ...


Every link you posted had tour results from November of 2006 and nothing listed for the TCT carbons (or C'Dales, for that matter). That given, how do you substantiate this (seemingly factual) statement:
_...the c'dale will be stiffer in the bb and top tube region per the tour tests._


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

here is some info; black and red bro...lol 

06 Cannondale Synapse is same in 09 
08 Trek Madone 5.2 is same in 09


click on FACT carbon link and read it here, 


http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=34166

06 Cannondale beats 08 Madone 5.2 in every aspect and Synapse is comfort frame..

in weight, check, frame stiffness, check, bb, stiffness, check, and fork stiffness, check ..


yes, these are from 06 

http://happypics.zapto.org/displayimage.php?album=161&pos=6
c'dale 99bb 71ht 50fork stiffness weight 1.184/384

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18129
madone 5.9SL 97bb 76ht 41fork stiffness weight 1.307/388 f


but here is a thread that might help:


for the 08 test Trek was not included in the test???

but here is a little info...
09 madone 5.2
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43101&highlight=madone+stiffness
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43101&highlight=madone+stiffness


hope this clears up some misunderstandings..


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

a_avery007 said:


> here is some info; black and red bro...lol
> 
> 06 Cannondale Synapse is same in 09
> 08 Trek Madone 5.2 is same in 09
> ...


I think the misunderstanding is yours. I say this because you seem to be providing info relating to the Madone 5.2, but the OP's question was in regards to TCT, used on the 4 series Madones. The 5/6 series use OCLV.

It may very well be that the C'Dale Synapse will better the Trek TCT's in some categories, but you mentioned _the c'dale will be stiffer in the bb and top tube region per the tour tests._
I've never seen results of them testing TCT. I'm thinking now that you haven't either.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*lets see here; OLD Madone SSL, new Madone 5.2*

and you want old, not even high end Trek Madone. come on bro no need to get ridiculously picky.. like they would send the riders to the tour with less than the best!! 
i have nothing against Trek they make great bikes, i said in order, get the one that fits, then go by road feel which is a personal thing. i stated my opinion as i have ridden all itinerations of Trek Madones. i don't prefer them, i just preferred the ride on the c'dale. stiffness; the numbers don't lie, but you refuse to believe it. to each their own.

ride what you like just ride...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

a_avery007 said:


> *i stated my opinion *


Yes, you did. Thanks for finally saying so.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

a_avery007 said:


> here is some info; black and red bro...lol
> 
> 06 Cannondale Synapse is same in 09
> 08 Trek Madone 5.2 is same in 09
> ...



I have followed along some of these posts, and am a bit amused. Just have to say, that your linked sources are a bit suspect. Are you seriously relying on Specialized's marketing brochures and a couple of opinions over at starbike for your sources? I for one can verify that some of the info posted in the Spec's marketing sheets are incorrect, or at least intellectually dishonest (but isn't that the point of marketing hype/). PJ is certainly correct: You are stating your opinions, or worse, accepting other's opinions as fact. While I do not disagree with you that Trek's TCT carbon is not of the same ilk as Trek's OCLV, I certainly wouldn't throw it under the bus as you have. 

As a counter to your Contador on OCLV Black, Levi rides OCLV Red, as most of Astana is transitioning to at this time. And it is certainly not a "wet noodle," as opined over at starbike. Do you have any idea why Contador still rides OCLV black? It is because the Red frames are too light to make UCI weight limits. Levi rides with a SRM power meter, and a heavy saddle which gets him legal. Contador needs the weight due to his light outfit. Since the two frames ride essentially identically (yes, my opinion, shared also by others with hundreds if not thousands of miles on each), it is natural to ride the heavier frame and still use his preferred outfit and climbing wheels. 

Re: Tour mag's tests: Tour did not test the 08 Madone frames as they were not available to them. Plus Tour's numbers are just that, numbers. They are to be used as a reference for riders to make their own decision. Tour, when they try to rank frames from better to worse, is when they venture into the realm of opinion. Stiffer is not always better. (yes, that is my opinion)

I am also curious as to your references to 09 Madones. Such do not exist yet.

The Tarmac's are great frames, no doubt about that. 

I am not trying to trash you. Just stating my opinions and observations.

zac


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

zac said:


> I have followed along some of these posts, and am a bit amused. Just have to say, that your linked sources are a bit suspect. Are you seriously relying on Specialized's marketing brochures and a couple of opinions over at starbike for your sources? I for one can verify that some of the info posted in the Spec's marketing sheets are incorrect, or at least intellectually dishonest (but isn't that the point of marketing hype/). PJ is certainly correct: You are stating your opinions, or worse, accepting other's opinions as fact. While I do not disagree with you that Trek's TCT carbon is not of the same ilk as Trek's OCLV, I certainly wouldn't throw it under the bus as you have.
> 
> As a counter to your Contador on OCLV Black, Levi rides OCLV Red, as most of Astana is transitioning to at this time. And it is certainly not a "wet noodle," as opined over at starbike. Do you have any idea why Contador still rides OCLV black? It is because the Red frames are too light to make UCI weight limits. Levi rides with a SRM power meter, and a heavy saddle which gets him legal. Contador needs the weight due to his light outfit. Since the two frames ride essentially identically (yes, my opinion, shared also by others with hundreds if not thousands of miles on each), it is natural to ride the heavier frame and still use his preferred outfit and climbing wheels.
> 
> ...


A gallant effort, I must say. If you found that post amusing, I wouldn't want you to miss out on this one. 
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=137884
Initially, I didn't recognize the poster, but once he provided 'sources', it became apparent. As you'll see, in the end I handled it differently. I gave up - it was easier. :yesnod:
I suspect if he responds, you'll do the same. 

EDIT: One point worth mentioning - as far as using Spec's (or anyone elses) documentation to support claims, Spec actually provides a fair amount of useful _technical_ info about their carbon processes, you just have to sift through (as you mentioned) the marketing hype to get it.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*alright lets just clear up a few things here*

some of you are taking way too much liberty with my statements!


read the thread title SLOWLY....
i was basically telling the person who asked the question MY opinion with a few objective tests thrown in. so, many variables make a good frame, but that was not the question.
I NEVER said that Trek's TCT carbon was inferior to C'dales Carbon Monocoque, or throw it under the "bus" as stated.. I NEVER said quality of Trek TCT carbon was poor or whatever, just that the c'dale FELT better, which none have you have stated..how about ride both and chime in????

And why would Specialized put Cannondale higher than Trek???
no conflict of interest- just competitors numbers....


and the Tour Tests Magazine use similar methods to http://www.efbe.de/produkte/steifigpruef/enindex.php

which look reasonably valid to me...i could be wrong:-(


And Trek has always done just OK in the stiffness department per every Tour Test, and Bike Testing Inc., who are outside independent frame testers, no conflict of interest like in house Trek and Specialized tests, but still come up with stiffness numbers that are very similiar from (04-08). And basically the test is just a frame on a rig with a weight attached to the bb or head tube region measuring deflection! that is it, how can that be fake??? simple test numbers don't lie, the frame IS relatively stiff or NOT compared to other frames, not which one rides better, feels better etc...but some just want to ignore them period..


here is a simple link; read it, not tell me what is says, just compare...
http://www.fiets.nl/uploads/stijfheidsmetingen/0612.htm


here is another written by zinn yes older OCLV but still worth a look:

http://www.cervelo.com/reviews/Flexing Their Muscles.pdf

and another older wrriten by cannondale; and i have never even included this one before..
http://www.cannondale.com/lab_report/synapse.html

and no specialized or trek conflicts of interest included, just numbers, numbers and more numbers..not what levi rides, nor contador rides, facts....

I never said that absolute stiffness makes a better bike, sheesh, some aluminum Kliens are the some of the stiffest bikes one the planet, does not make me want to own one though..
Trek makes good bikes!
Specialized makes good bikes!
Cannnodale makes good bikes!
Cervelo makes good bikes!

as usual the mouthpiece just has to chime in....who asked you anyway???
you don't even answer direct questions...


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## qwer (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm in the market for a roadbike myself. To date, I test rode 

- Specialized Roubaix
- Scott CR1
- BMC Streetfire
- BMC SLX Roadmaster
- BMC SL01 Roadracer
- Cannondale Synapse
- Cannondale CAAD9
- Trek 6.9
- Trek 5.2
- Trek 4.5
- Trek 1.9 (aluminium)


In terms of the Trek's Madone range I'd go Madone 5.1 ("white" carbon), which for me personally has all I'd need in a race bike and the best bang for the buck, even if the Madone 4.5/4.7 models are cheaper. Also, there must be a reason that they (Trek) use "white" carbon instead of "black" carbon for the 64 cm frame of the Madone 5.5.

Because of the mentioned "Tour" and "Roadbike" results/tests in the posted links - I simply don't care about the german "stiffness madness" and their rankings/results. Period. 

The best test is still to go out, ride the bikes that you're intrested in for yourself and then judge and make your decision based on YOUR test rides, and not on some BS mag stiffness test results.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

qwer said:


> I'm in the market for a roadbike myself. To date, I test rode
> 
> - Specialized Roubaix
> - Scott CR1
> ...


Well, it certainly is refreshing to read a post from a well informed, objective consumer.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*have ridden and owned*

off the top of my head:

owned:
cinelli circa 80's
specialized allez
cannondale caad 5
trek oclv
lemond oclv
steelman stage race
specialized roubaix
cannondale synapse
look 585
specialized tarmac sl

ridden:
colnago steel
moots ti 
merlin ti
giant tcr and avanced
felt f2 z15
cervelo r3 and rs
calfee
cannondale system six 13 six and supersix
trek 5900 and 08 madone 5.2
scott addict

want to ride:
c50
willier cento
supersupersupersix


so, no, not just bs numbers-rides and feelings and numbers...
clarity and perspective mate....


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