# What is Relaxed Geometry ?



## dcairns (Sep 6, 2006)

Can somebody explain what the difference between a regular "race" and a "relaxed" road bike? I get the general impression that the relaxed fit allows the handle bars to be a bit higher, so you don't have to bend over quite as much.

As some background, I am a 46 year old mountain biker and have been doing my week day workout rides on a paved bike trail (still prefer my weekends in the dirt, though  ). So I am used to a 45 degree riding position. I got a separate set of wheels for my mountain bike with some 90psi slick tires mounted, and that helps a lot, but I find myself wondering how much better it would be with a real road bike. The trail I ride is the Santa Ana River trail in Orange County, and the wind seems to get channeled along the river rather well, so I find myself fighting the wind quite a bit. You would think that in a round trip, only half of it would be upwind...  I even added some old bar ends to my mountain bike to allow me to move my hands forward, and lower my riding posture. This helps a fair amount in the wind, but I still find myself browsing the road bike ads  

I tried a couple of road bikes at the LBS to test fit for size, but noticed that it would take some getting used to in order to ride with my hands down on the "drops. So far I am looking at Shimano 105 level stuff that weighs about 20 lbs (mountain bike weighs 31 lbs).


----------



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Race geometry bikes have relatively shorter wheelbases, and head- and seat-tube angles, and fork rakes, that lend themselves to rapid steering and sharp power transfer. They also tend to have shorter head tubes, allowing for very low, aerodynamic positions.

"relaxed" geometry bikes are the opposite -- longer wheelbases, less rapid steering, and sometimes have extended headtubes that allow for more upright positions with a neutral stem. If you don't have that, though, a relaxed handlebar postion can be had with spacers and / or a riser stem. 

As a recreational rider, you never really NEED to use the handlebar drops, and they also make shallow-drop bars that are, well, shallower.

Road bike tires are faster on the road than even 90PSI MTB slicks. A lot less resistance...


----------



## treebound (Oct 16, 2003)

dcairns said:


> Can somebody explain what the difference between a regular "race" and a "relaxed" road bike? I get the general impression that the relaxed fit allows the handle bars to be a bit higher, so you don't have to bend over quite as much.


You almost have to ride them to understand the difference, probably the easiest comparison is to compare motorcycles:
A 2007 Suzuki GSXR750 has race geometry,
A 2007 Harley-Davidson Dyna Wide Glide has relaxed geometry - even if you put drag bars on it.

My Colnago MasterLight has race geometry and feels like it is just begging to turn when you are riding it, but is also dead solid in the straights and in descents, but dig into a turn and the bike just seems to say go for it and hang on as it carves a trench with the tires in the pavement around a corner (so to speak).

My Lemond Fillmore has a bit more of a relaxed geometry, but is still a little racey. A bit more of a casual ride (even though I can ride the ML casually as well). The steering is a bit slower, but that doesn't mean it is slow to steer. My beast of a MTB, an older ProFlex 656, has a more aggressive feeling geometry than the Fillmore, but that might be partly due to the handlebars being lower than the seat, way lower, which seems nuts for a MTB but it still works.

Steeper head tube angle, shorter wheelbase, more agressive seating/body position help to define a more race-like road bike geometry.

You can add a higher riser to a race bike to add rider comfort, but it will affect the handling, just like you can add aero bars and a foreward positioned seat mount to a race bike in an attempt to make it more like a triathlon or time trial bike, but that too will affect the handling to some extent.

Probably no help at all, but I had a few minutes to spare and just went ahead and typed this in.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Argentius said:


> Race geometry bikes have relatively shorter wheelbases, and head- and seat-tube angles, and fork rakes, that lend themselves to rapid steering and sharp power transfer. They also tend to have shorter head tubes, allowing for very low, aerodynamic positions.
> 
> "relaxed" geometry bikes are the opposite -- longer wheelbases, less rapid steering, and sometimes have extended headtubes that allow for more upright positions with a neutral stem. If you don't have that, though, a relaxed handlebar postion can be had with spacers and / or a riser stem.
> 
> ...


Kind of misleading as Colnagos tend to have "relaxed" geometry and plenty of pros ride them. Also sometimes called "stage race" geometry. Tend to have slacker angles, longer wheelbases and are more confortable over longer rides. Extreme example might be a touring bike designed to carry heavy loads over long distances. Race geometry could also be called "crit geometry" though many pros ride such bikes over distances also. Tend to be steeper angles, quicker handling and higher BB heights so you can pedal through corners without scraping pedals as easily. An extreme example of this is the "tri-specific" bike or TT bike which is designed for extreme aero positioning and generally is twitchy and somewhat uncomfortable for normal or long distance riding.


----------



## dcairns (Sep 6, 2006)

As for my current needs:

-My workout ride is about 15 miles long, so not very long, but it is 4 days a week. But I may find myself doing some longer rides in the future. So that might favor a "relaxed" bike.

And I don't see much need for "twitchy" or even "very responsive" steering as it is pretty straight riding that I do. So that would favor a "relaxed" bike. My mountain bike is plenty responsive for the riding I do, both on and off road.

I am not sure I understand what people mean by "sharp power transfer" and "acceleration" other than keeping it light helps make the most of the limited power we have. I tend to ride at a rather continuous level of output rather than the rapid acceleration that racers do.

As the wind seems to be a factor (at least in my mind), I might actually be using the drops for at least a 1/4 of my ride.
That would favor a "race" type bike, but I think I could get all the aerodynamic benefits that I need from a "relaxed" bike.

I am not sure what difference the longer wheel base makes, other than a the wheel base gets longer as the fork/head angle moves the front tire forward more for more straight line stability.

So I think the conclusion I can draw, is that a relaxed geometry bike may well be the best fit for my needs. I could get the weight savings and aerodynamic benefits over my mountain bike. A touring bike would probably start to compare with my mountain bike in terms of weight and aerodynamics, so that would be spending money for nothing.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

dcairns said:


> As for my current needs:
> 
> -My workout ride is about 15 miles long, so not very long, but it is 4 days a week. But I may find myself doing some longer rides in the future. So that might favor a "relaxed" bike.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't get a touring bike unless you are gonna do loaded touring. They are heavy and sluggish compared to "normal" road bikes. They are really a specialized type of bike that is designed for carrying heavy loads and long days in the saddle.


----------



## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Pretty good advice above. I'd add that some race bikes/bikes with crit geometry tend to have a firmer ride. Somebody is going to post that if you find this to be the case, just lower the pressure in your tires &/or add wider tires. That may help a little, but to my mind, it's like putting passenger tires on an Indy car. Will it help the ride? Well, yes, but....

Drop handlebars are made in different widths as well as different amount of drop. The deeper drops are made to accomodate riders with large hands. Got small hands? Try the shallow drops.


----------



## treebound (Oct 16, 2003)

I've attached a pic of my Fillmore, more pics can be found in this thread: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=91977&highlight=treebound+port

If you look at the distance of the rear tire to the seat tube you will get a bit of a feel for the longer chainstays. Ignore the fact that this one is set up as a fixed gear and single speed flip flop on the rear, unless you like that which a lot of riders do for a variety of reasons not the least of which is the simplicity of simply getting on the bike and going for a ride. Lemond also makes a geared version of this bike with regular dropouts, and many other companies and brands have models similar in geometry. You'll also note that my handlebars are set up a bit high with the drops almost equal with the top tube giving me a somewhat relaxed riding position when I'm on the bar tops and which isn't so hard on my back when I'm down in the drops busting into a headwind or cranking down a hill and hovering over the brakes. I find it has a very comfortable ride.

This bike probably doesn't have enough room for full fenders between the fork legs or chainstays and the tires, but could easily run fenders like the Race Blade design. It also won't easily take real wide tires, don't think a 32 will fit on there, but should clear some Michelin 25's, currently running the Bontrager 700x23 until they blow or flat or wear out.

Bocephus is right in that you probably don't want a full on touring bike, unless you plan to do some loaded touring. But maybe a bike in the Sport Touring category would work well for you. Check this site/link: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ta-o.html#touringbike and look at Sheldon's definitions of a Light Touring bike versus a Sport Touring bike. Many people on the site here recommend full fenders if the bike will be for commuting, even if you don't ride in the rain you might ride after a rain while the roads are still wet or are wet with the morning dew.

(got no idea if this drivel I typed will post, got the server busy error, probably just as well, oh well)


----------



## dcairns (Sep 6, 2006)

I was not suggesting a touring bike, I just mentioned it as being somewhat pointless because it would not be much different than my mountain bike (heavier and not very aero). And no need for fenders, I get wet anyway. Sweat like crazy on my workouts


----------



## Mr_Snips2 (Jun 26, 2006)

If its in your price range Specialized Roubaix would be a great "relaxed geometry" bike yet still racey enough for alot of fun...It also seems to be highly recomended on this forum


----------



## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

Mr_Snips2 said:


> If its in your price range Specialized Roubaix would be a great "relaxed geometry" bike yet still racey enough for alot of fun...It also seems to be highly recomended on this forum


 What he said. You're gonna find your effort takes you a lot further on on your Roubaix than your MTB with slicks. Don't let 'em cut off the steering tube til you've figured out the height you need your bars to be. I almost sold mine, because I still couldn't get the bars up high enough for my arthritic back and neck. Then I found a widget at AlfredEBike that raises it up another 3" if needed. Now I'm in heaven. But if you're riding dirt roads, something that'll use wider tires, like a cyclocross bike, might just be yer ticket. The Roubaix, like most roadies, maxs out at 700Cx25 or so.


----------



## dcairns (Sep 6, 2006)

The Roubaix does sound like just the sort of bike I am looking for <drool> But I dunno about the price tag - the Roubaix Triple has a $1500 list price. Somehow I don't think the sell for 1/3 off on e-bay...


----------



## rochrunner (Jul 11, 2006)

dcairns said:


> The Roubaix does sound like just the sort of bike I am looking for <drool> But I dunno about the price tag - the Roubaix Triple has a $1500 list price. Somehow I don't think the sell for 1/3 off on e-bay...


And if the Roubaix is still a bit too racy or expensive, check out Specialized's Sequoia. That's what I have, although I've already changed out a couple of components to improve its performance. I've been happy with it, but if I were doing it over I would probably end up with a Roubaix (thought I was just going to be a casual roadie, but now I keep trying to go faster!).


----------



## dcairns (Sep 6, 2006)

Another pesky question. I was comparing head angles on a couple of bikes and it seems to only be a 1 degree difference between "race" and "relaxed" does that sound right? I looked up the Fuji because I had given it a test ride at the bike store (apparently a good sale price of $1350 for last years model). It seems like the differences are very small, is most of the difference in the height of the handle bars?

Fuji Team
Frame Size	56
Head Angle	73.5*
Seat-Tube Angle	73
Top-Tube Length 555.3*	Effective 560.2
Chain-Stay Length	410*
BB Height 281*	
Wheelbase	985.9	
Stand over	793.4*


Specialized ROUBAIX TRIPLE
Frame Size	56	
Head Angle	72.5	
Seat-Tube Angle	73.25	
Top-Tube Length	546mm	Effective 565mm
Chain-Stay Length 415mm	
BB Height	268.5mm 
Wheelbase	1010mm	
Stand over	778mm


----------



## Mr_Snips2 (Jun 26, 2006)

Very small can make a very big difference. Check out the Specialized Allez also. Slightly racier than the roubaix but also much less money with good components. Tiagra is really all you need. Especially if you get the 2007 or newer tiagra. It is nice stuff. My coach puts about 5000+ miles a year on his Allez alone just as his "training" bike.


----------



## dcairns (Sep 6, 2006)

The Specialized Sequoia looks less painful to the wallet and seems to have the same geometry as the Roubaix. Now if I could just find a local shop that sells em cheaper than list...


----------

