# Group Rides: Can I keep up?



## aronth5 (Jan 19, 2012)

There are several bike groups in the area and they mention their average speed ranges anywhere from 18-20mph or 20+. I have started out riding on my own to get used to riding which is new to me. (Long time marathoner who can no longer run due to doctor's orders). My rides average about 16mph and I typically cover between 20-40 miles. I don't want to show up for a group ride only to fall behind. My question is how much does riding in a group improve your riding pace due to the affects of drafting?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Here's a recent thread on that very topic:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/beginners-corner/how-much-do-you-gain-280599.html


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## Seamlesscv74 (May 20, 2012)

Kinda in same situation, i wanna try a group ride just to see where im at. Im thinking a smaller ride over familiar terrain would be kosher that way if i was to get dropped who cares ill just ride on as usual.

Id recommend looking for something like that in your area just to see whats up u know?

Maybe the LBS has some good ideas.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Average speed information given out by cyclists is generally unreliable. Their "18-20mph or 20+" could mean that they ride around those speeds for the entire time of the ride, in which case you could probably stay with them. However, if this is a true average speed as shown by their computers after the ride, it's a fast ride that you may have problems with.

Just show up an see where you are in comparison with others. Basically, that's what the regulars are doing on these rides too. If you don't have it yet as a newcomer or are having a bad day as a regular, no shame in leaving the ride.


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## rgg01 (Jun 21, 2011)

I would talk to someone who actually rides with these groups to see what the policies are regarding dropping people and whether they really stay at those speeds. I avoided my local weekend group rides for a year as whilst I used to enjoy it in my old locale the advertised speeds for the distances seemed too slow, I normally average 30-32 km/h on my own 45-65 km runs so joining a group ride that said it would cover the same distances at 25-28 km/h wasn't too interesting. However by chance found out that the groups went significantly faster than advertised as they split into 2 lots, went a couple of times now and really enjoyed the company. The other side can be true as well, joined their Saturday morning coffee run which is advertised as fast 30km/h or medium 25-28km/h recovery pace. Had raced on the Friday and wanted to enjoy a recovery, so the 30 km run out to the coffee shop went through a little over posted at 30km/h but i was having a chat and enjoying myself so who cares, on the way back we rode 25 mins into a stiff side wind, then we turned for home and the wind was on our backs, we averaged 44km/h for the last 25 mins and I had 54km'/h as my peak speed, I ended up hurting more that day than for a long time.


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## jpick915 (May 7, 2006)

If possible see if you can find a "no-drop" ride. There are several of these in my area, run by the local cycle club and some of the local shops. These rides usually are moderate in pace and will have designated stops for folks to regroup. If run well, they will also have a sweeper to make sure slower riders, who may have gotten in over their head, make it home safely.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

jpick915 said:


> If possible see if you can find a "no-drop" ride.


Good advice, but like to add a note of caution for those who are just getting into this: don't be too surprised if a "no-drop" ride is "no-drop" in name only. The leader may have good intentions. But once the group gets rolling along at a good clip, some sort of cycling insanity creeps into everyone's brain and all good intentions sometimes fall by the wayside.

Also consider you may be more comfortable leaving a group rather than have them wait for you to catch up. As said above, people do all the time anyway ("got to go home and mow the lawn, see you guys"). There's no cycling law that says that you have to stay with a group from beginning to end.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

18-20mph is probably what they average on the flats. My team's shop ride advertises 18mph avg for the fast group and we only hit that sometimes. I've ridden with some training rides that had CAT 1-2 riders in it and we were in that range for the average speed, but that is some serious trucking (especially with the climbing we had). The only way to tell if you can hang with a group though, is to give it a shot. Don't worry about dropping. Just go out and have fun.


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## scorchedearth (Mar 22, 2012)

I joined my first group ride on Tuesday with a local racing team from an LBS nearby. I kept up at their relaxed pace in a group formation just fine but once they started accelerating and set a pace line, I fell way back. It was quite humbling but I'll be back. I can only get better after all. 

Give it a shot and see how it goes.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

If they truely average 20ish.....try to find group more geared towards beginners. Even if you can keep up physically it's a good idea to learn group riding at a slower pace before doing so.

Dont get me wrong, half the fun and value of group rides comes from riding with people you have trouble keeping up with.....but you should be confident with the group dynamics before doing that.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> If they truely average 20ish.....try to find group more geared towards beginners.


Yes, that's the thing I keep harping on: a true average (distance over time) is rarely given to someone who asks. It's not a range like 18-20 mph, it doesn't refer to terrain like "on the flats" and the word "sometimes" doesn't enter into it. And as you said: a group ride with a _true_ average of 20 mph is pretty damn fast.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

I belong to a club that has over 300 members and within that number around 60 racers. On Saturdays there must be at least 5 organized rides from real beginners through racers and some crazy ultra milers. I usually do the Fast Social Ride. We average 19-20 for 60 miles through rollers with wind most of the time running a single pace line-I hate the wind! This is a real computer average. It is a "no drop" ride in that we wait at points where we will turn so a dropped rider doesn't get lost. We have some portions on isolated county roads we may hammer and ride 27-30. This is an example of a "no drop" 18-20 mph ride you probably don't want to start with. But a flat course, and a sweeper that takes care of new riders, and a even speed without hard surges maybe do able. If the group is able to ride as a pack and not single file the draft is much bigger. Last week I had a good Tuesday and Tursday ride. I paid for it on Saturday. My legs just wouldn't keep up on the hills. I quit fighting it and did my own ride. You should be able to ride a steady group pace average a couple of mph faster than you ride alone. But don't jump into a ride that is a lot longer than you have endurance for. If your long ride is 2 hrs don't bit off a 4 hr ride. If you survive you will not have fun. Check around, ask the right questions-distance, speed, real average, pace line/pack, amount of climbing, no drop, what happens if you flat-and you should be able to find the correct ride. As you get more fit and better bike skills you will find other groups to ride with.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

I belong to a club that has over 300 members and within that number around 60 racers. On Saturdays there must be at least 5 organized rides from real beginners through racers and some crazy ultra milers. I usually do the Fast Social Ride. We average 19-20 for 60 miles through rollers with wind most of the time running a single pace line-I hate the wind! This is a real computer average. It is a "no drop" ride in that we wait at points where we will turn so a dropped rider doesn't get lost. We have some portions on isolated county roads we may hammer and ride 27-30. This is an example of a "no drop" 18-20 mph ride you probably don't want to start with. But a flat course, and a sweeper that takes care of new riders, and a even speed without hard surges maybe do able. If the group is able to ride as a pack and not single file the draft is much bigger. Last week I had a good Tuesday and Tursday ride. I paid for it on Saturday. My legs just wouldn't keep up on the hills. I quit fighting it and did my own ride. You should be able to ride a steady group pace average a couple of mph faster than you ride alone. But don't jump into a ride that is a lot longer than you have endurance for. If your long ride is 2 hrs don't bit off a 4 hr ride. If you survive you will not have fun. Check around, ask the right questions-distance, speed, real average, pace line/pack, amount of climbing, no drop, what happens if you flat-and you should be able to find the correct ride. As you get more fit and better bike skills you will find other groups to ride with.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Just curious what the advantage is to participating in a no drop ride if you're unsure of your ability to keep up. Wouldn't you rather they continue on without you in this case rather than holding up other people because of your lack of fitness? Knowing other people needed to stop to wait for me seems like it would make the ride stressful and no fun.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

bayAreaDude said:


> Just curious what the advantage is to participating in a no drop ride if you're unsure of your ability to keep up.


Well, the assumption generally is that there'll be others who can't keep up either. After all, no-drop rides are usually pitched to people who are not sure of their abilities, but want to give this group ride thing a try. So you're not really holding people up if you do get dropped, but just taking the organizers at their word ("truth in advertising").

But yes, your point is well taken if you're the only one off the back at the beginning of the ride. As said above, some people would feel better just leaving such a ride. Others turn it into a training tool: how far can I hang this week?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

bayAreaDude said:


> Just curious what the advantage is to participating in a no drop ride if you're unsure of your ability to keep up. Wouldn't you rather they continue on without you in this case rather than holding up other people because of your lack of fitness? Knowing other people needed to stop to wait for me seems like it would make the ride stressful and no fun.


The term also applies to people who are unsure of their ability to slow down for the sake of functioning as a group.
to some extent even drop rides are no drop rides because on long hills it's inevitable there are people who need to wait at the top and people who lag. the people who lag on hills might also be the people who could drop the skinny guys on the flats.....but group is a key word to group ride so that doesn't happen either.
Yes, most people would rather the group continue if they are in way over their head and by just telling the group to go ahead they generally will.
But being totally out of your league is a different story from just falling off the back after a hill or something like that and that's what non beginner level no drop rides are trying to address with a no drop policy. I'd think it's self explanatory why beginner group rides are no drop.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> The term also applies to people who are unsure of their ability to slow down for the sake of functioning as a group.


That's a good observation. The sad fact is that many (if not most) recreational group rides are fantasy races with which newcomers have a difficult time. If you're made to feel that "you're holding up people because of [your] lack of fitness," you're probably not going to return. This sort of thing also sends the bad signal that spirited or even competitive cycling is all about going as fast as you can all the time.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

No shame in falling off. Ride as hard as you can, as long as you can. That's how you get stronger.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> The term also applies to people who are unsure of their ability to slow down for the sake of functioning as a group.
> to some extent even drop rides are no drop rides because on long hills it's inevitable there are people who need to wait at the top and people who lag. the people who lag on hills might also be the people who could drop the skinny guys on the flats.....but group is a key word to group ride so that doesn't happen either.
> Yes, most people would rather the group continue if they are in way over their head and by just telling the group to go ahead they generally will.
> But being totally out of your league is a different story from just falling off the back after a hill or something like that and that's what non beginner level no drop rides are trying to address with a no drop policy. I'd think it's self explanatory why beginner group rides are no drop.


Ah, I didn't realize even on a drop ride people are stopping and waiting for each other.

I haven't been on a group ride yet, but am curious and confused. I assume I'll fall behind the first time, then way overdo it trying to catch up because I feel bad ruing someone else's workout by making them stop to wait for me, only to do it again over and over until I bonk for good. So myself and whoever waits for me are getting a shitty workout. And in this case I'd be alone while catching up, and once i got caught up, probably only one person waiting right? So most of the ride is solo or with just one partner, sort of nullifying the whole 'group' aspect.

I'm really not trying to be a pita here, but it seems like it would be better for all involved to show up, get dropped if you can't hang, then go train by yourself again for a while until you're up for trying it again, no?

Am I just overthinking it?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

bayAreaDude said:


> Ah, I didn't realize even on a drop ride people are stopping and waiting for each other.
> 
> .............
> 
> Am I just overthinking it?


Yes you are over thinking it. 
Put it this way, there are however many thousand people doing group rides and everyone of them started with zero experience doing group rides. Some never go back....the large majority embrace that part of cycling and find it fun right from the start.
Try to pick a group you can hang with and if it's really obvious you haven't just tell them to go ahead without you. It's no big deal to do that nor should waiting a little be a big deal for someone whos a little faster but knowingly signed up for a no drop ride.

regarding drop rides not actually dropping people: yeah, I do a drop ride and we seldomly actually drop anyone. We only drop people if it's obvious we are just waiting to only drop them again. But we are not going to drop someone if they happened to pull too hard once and fall off, are last up a hill but sure to stay on once they get there or whatever the cause is. Drafting is a great equalizer but still if a group ride was all about dropping people it wouldn't be a group ride at all because eventually it would turn into a bunch of guys time trailing the same route.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Waiting*



bayAreaDude said:


> I'm really not trying to be a pita here, but it seems like it would be better for all involved to show up, get dropped if you can't hang, then go train by yourself again for a while until you're up for trying it again, no?


Depending on who is running the ride, the goal of no-drop rides often is to bring new riders into a club in a friendly way. People who have showed up for a bike ride only to be spat out the back right away often leave with a bad taste in their mouth and that is NOT what a bike club (or a bike shop) is looking for. 

We run daily no-drop rides at different paces and count on people to know whether they can hang on the higher speed rides. But on the low speed rides there are constant re-group points and nobody has to worry about getting embarassed or left for dead on some far-away country road.


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## gumbafish (Jan 11, 2011)

Just tried my first group ride last week, I showed up and two groups were meeting at the same spot so I went with a different one than I intended. It was full on race training with cat2/3 racers doing pacelines and making split groups with doing sprints to bridge groups. 

It became clear I was both messing up their training and also unable to keep pace on the hard efforts. It wasn't a big deal I just dropped off the back and continued on with my own solo ride. There was no way there would have waited for me. I guess my point is just go and see, if you are unfamiliar with the area look at a map before so you can drop off if you need to.


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## Mr. Jones (Jul 4, 2006)

wim said:


> Yes, that's the thing I keep harping on: a true average (distance over time) is rarely given to someone who asks. It's not a range like 18-20 mph, it doesn't refer to terrain like "on the flats" and the word "sometimes" doesn't enter into it. And as you said: a group ride with a _true_ average of 20 mph is pretty damn fast.


I think you are harping unnecessarily.

Look at the following example (numbers are made up to make for straightforward mental arithmetic)

Ride 1: 30 miles, 1 hour
Ride 2: 30 miles, 1 hour
Ride 3: 30 miles, 1 hour
Ride 4: 30 miles, 1 hour
Ride 5: 30 miles, 1 hour
Ride 6: 30 miles, 5 hours (Major crash, everyone goes to the hospital)

The only seemingly valid average from your point of view outlined above is that the group averages 18=180/10 miles per hour.

However, 5 times out of six, this ride averages 30 miles per hour. This, in my estimation, is a more useful figure than just knowing the average over all of the rides.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Mr. Jones said:


> I think you are harping unnecessarily.
> 
> Look at the following example (numbers are made up to make for straightforward mental arithmetic)
> 
> ...


you missed his point by a mile. He's talking about the difference between "we generally cruise alone at 20" and " the average speed showing on the computer at the end is 20".


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Mr. Jones said:


> However, 5 times out of six, this ride averages 30 miles per hour. This, in my estimation, is a more useful figure than just knowing the average over all of the rides.


As Jay said ^, all my comments are about the average speed of one ride. I think when people do give average speeds or speed ranges, it's generally understood that these figures exclude unusual circumstances.


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

I vote to go ride with an advertised no-drop group ride that says they ride at about the same average speed you can ride solo. Riding in a group is more than just being able to keep up. Everybody is depending on every rider in the group to ride safely and predictably and to follow the accepted rules and signals of the group.

If you are not used to riding in a paceline formation with a group, you will double the chances of a crash if you are also barely hanging in there.

Here is some info you might want to read about group rides. Also, make sure to ask specifically about each individual group ride, as different groups have different rules, signals, and customs. Enjoy!

http://www.inlandempirecycling.com/Cycling/group_riding_and_pace_lines.htm
http://gccfla.org/ridingtips.html
http://www.bamacyclist.com/articles/groupridetech.html
http://www.capefearcyclists.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=25
http://bicycling.com/blogs/ramblingman/2011/11/30/how-to-master-the-group-ride/


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