# passport positives



## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

Cyclingnews ran a story today saying that the first passport positives will be announced before the Giro. Any guesses who it/they are going to be? My money is on a CSC team rider based on the chatter after last years tour. 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr21news2


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Red Sox Junkie said:


> Cyclingnews ran a story today saying that the first passport positives will be announced before the Giro. Any guesses who it/they are going to be? My money is on a CSC team rider based on the chatter after last years tour.


A good bet would be we'll still be guessing come Giro time, this seems like at least the 3rd or 4th announcement that prosecutions were just around the corner.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

It would be a Schleck, probably.


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## parity (Feb 28, 2006)

Lance.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Red Sox Junkie said:


> Cyclingnews ran a story today saying that the first passport positives will be announced before the Giro. Any guesses who it/they are going to be? My money is on a CSC team rider based on the chatter after last years tour.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr21news2


If it's a CSC rider then you may be looking at Cancellara, Arvesen maybe even a Schleck. I somehow don't think that Carlos Sastre will be in that list.

It could also be Valverde from Caisse d'Epargne.

From Astana we may have Contador, Leipheimer.

Columbia Kim Kirchen?

Just a lot of speculation at this point. Besides, come Giro time they may say that it's still inconclusive and just bury altogether.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

The UCI could just play it safe and go with riders everybody knows used but because of the ways the laws are written nothing was done: Valeverde and Franck "$10,000" check schleck". Italy would send assasins to Switzerland if they did Lance - so no, it won't be lancer. I agree with Dwayne, they have been saying just around the corner for ever. Evern after Kohl and Schumacher did their extraterrestrial rides the passport wasn't tight enough... all PR the passport program


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> A good bet would be we'll still be guessing come Giro time, this seems like at least the 3rd or 4th announcement that prosecutions were just around the corner.


If big names are involved, this is the kind of thing you announce before the Tour de France. You don't waste it on the Giro.


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## mquetel (Apr 2, 2006)

I expect the first few to be called out for suspicion of doping under the passport program will not be the high profile riders. Less famous riders probably won't have the capability to carry on a protracted legal battle over the validity of the program. Then, perhaps a passport program with some successful doping prosecutions (or whatever) might feel more confident in hunting bigger game.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

parity said:


> Lance.


Correct me if I'm wrong but Lance wasn't involved in the UCI passport until late last year or early this year.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

BAi9302010 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but Lance wasn't involved in the UCI passport until late last year or early this year.


Still no worries, pass the EPO and drain some blood, Biopassport still a work in progress.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr22news2


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

According to Equipe, the same UCI spokesman has denied everything - which has to be a new one, even for the UCI


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm hearing that Klödi is on the list...along with someone else who may cause some among us to get the vapors.


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## cazdrvr (Oct 11, 2005)

Another Astana rider?


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

So Kloden will be Astana's sacrificial lamb - even so, he's been in the team long enough for eyebrows to be raised about Damsgaard/Boss Hog


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

looks like kloden...


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Sounds like a lot of speculation but no real facts.


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## are (Feb 5, 2005)

Where is this coming from? Who is the the other big rider?


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

are said:


> Where is this coming from? Who is the the other big rider?


It's definitely Kloden and it's about the T-Mobile, Frieburg Clinic thing that's been going on for a while.

Supposedly there are documents tying Kloden to Freiburg.

We'll have to wait until next week starts. 

I like blackhat's comments, but I don't know about them. I guess anything is possible.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2004)

I like Kloden. He has a suspicious past (T-mobile) but I assumed him to be currently riding clean. I thought the "news" was coming today, whats the word on if its coming at all?


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

FondriestFan said:


> Sounds like a lot of speculation but no real facts.


Well if you believe that some people here know stuff, like the TH thing, that's the kind of thing it is. It's not happening till Monday at the earliest, so then we'll know. 

The Hamilton rumors took a couple of weeks to become facts.

Would anyone be surprised by any top rider going down? 

That's the problem. Until people like LA are tested so much, they can't cheat, everyone is suspect.

I think if LA continues to get dropped and perfom like his pre cancer self, other riders are going to believe there can be a clean sport.

Now it's a joke. LA is a suffocating nightmare to the true fan of sport.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

FondriestFan said:


> Sounds like a lot of speculation but no real facts.



You'll see a lot of that here... I wonder when the positive results from Jens Voigt at RVV come out? It would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic. Imagine what the people who post this kind of garbage must be like in person.


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## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

lookrider said:


> It's definitely Kloden and it's about the T-Mobile, Frieburg Clinic thing that's been going on for a while.
> 
> Supposedly there are documents tying Kloden to Freiburg.
> 
> ...



- Would not be shocked at all if this were true......


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Just like all Bruyneel's riders, they either dope before or after but never have such brilliant results as when they're with the Hog riding 'clean'


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

rocco said:


> You'll see a lot of that here... I wonder when the positive results from Jens Voigt at RVV come out? It would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic. Imagine what the people who post this kind of garbage must be like in person.


Wasn't that clearly a joke?

These rumours seem to almost always turn out to have some basis in fact (e.g. Austrian blood doping operation, Tyler, etc.).


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Bianchigirl said:


> Just like all Bruyneel's riders, they either dope before or after but never have such brilliant results as when they're with the Hog riding 'clean'


Last year "the hog" sacrificed Vladimir Gusev under the Daamsgard program. Has anyone heard of Vlad riding this year?


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

I'm a Kloeden fan, but have no wool over my eyes. They guy had two great TdFs on TMobile, when everyone else on that team has pretty much been caught red handed. On top of that he came virtually out of no where to do those rides.

What I don't like is how more than two years later we're still dealing with fallout over the happenings of the summer of 2006. Regardless of whether or not Kloeden got transfusions at Freiburg, or Valverde was doing the same thing as Basso, it's time to drop it. For the sanity of all involved. You can't keep holding the threat of sanctions over some of these guys for years with no end in sight, especially when technically speaking there were no positive tests (not saying those guys were innocent).


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

lookrider said:


> It's definitely Kloden and it's about the T-Mobile, Frieburg Clinic thing that's been going on for a while.
> 
> Supposedly there are documents tying Kloden to Freiburg.


Q: What does T-Mobile and the Frieburg Clinic thing have to do with passport positives? 
A: Nothing.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Q: What does T-Mobile and the Frieburg Clinic thing have to do with passport positives?
> A: Nothing.


It's not about passport positives.

When it was clarified, I posted the same day.

Someone goes out on a limb and says Hamilton is positive.

It turns out to be true a couple of week later.

Now someone is saying there is documentation connecting Kloden to the Freiburg clinic.

The info should be coming out next week. Just hold on and see what happens.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

lookrider said:


> It's not about passport positives.
> 
> When it was clarified, I posted the same day.
> 
> ...


That's disappointing since it just means the Biopassport continues to lack any teeth.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

rocco said:


> You'll see a lot of that here... It would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic. Imagine what the people who post this kind of garbage must be like in person.


Yeah, some of the guys who are caught and suspected dopers are real nice people. 

Not too much imagination is involved in knowing what kind of person LA is, is there? If you need help, I'll post two tidbits which should give you an idea.

http://www.martindugard.com/blog/2009/01/chasing-hope.html

_MY FAVORITE LANCE ARMSTRONG STORY


My favorite Lance Armstrong story is unprintable. 

In fact, my top five favorite Lance Armstrong stories could mean legal action. They are the sort of tales I only tell good friends after one beer too many, because the anecdotes are second-hand and tawdry and revealing in a way that makes me feel slightly guilty for sharing, as if by weaving the story I have admitted something about my own character that I am not entirely comfortable exists. 

But I tell them anyway, starting with the night atop L'Alpe du Huez and the startling comment by the British cameraman, and on and on. ..........

That wasn't the last time we spoke. I ran into him a year later in that bar atop L'Alpe du Huez, wearing a baseball cap pulled low on his head while standing next to Jake Gyllenhaal, as if that could somehow hide his identity. We shook hands and spoke about the book, but it was understood that I wouldn't linger. 

That was the night the camera man came back with his incredulous tale, the one that reduces me to a gossip._​
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/golf/article5114047.ece

_WE ARE on a flight to Malaga, drinking tea and shooting the breeze about another sporting icon, acclaimed for his courage and inspirational deeds. 

“Have you ever interviewed him?” Harrington asks. 

“No,” I reply. “I like to give everyone a blank sheet of paper, but I couldn’t do it with him . . . probably the most cynical, hypocritical bastard in the history of sport.” 

“Really?” he says, shifting nervously. 

“Have you read that stuff in his book about what a devoted husband and father he is? Well, he’d get up on your mother.” 

“What!” 

“He f**** everything that moves.” 

“SHUUUSSSSSSSSSH!” Harrington freaks, frantically looking around in case somebody has heard. I’m laughing, but he is absolutely serious. _​
Just imagine a little what would provoke an Armstrong apologist like Dugard to even allude to the fact Pharmstrong, in addition to being a doper, is a scumbag.

Imagine who Kimmage is referring to.


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

lookrider said:


> Yeah, some of the guys who are caught and suspected dopers are real nice people.
> 
> Not too much imagination is involved in knowing what kind of person LA is, is there? If you need help, I'll post two tidbits which should give you an idea.
> 
> ...



Why does it allways come back to Lance? No matter who gets caught doping the thread works it way to a Lance bash fest by the LA haters. 

I think EPO and cycling is like steroids in the NFL, more use it than don't. Lance doped, we know. Til he fails a current test, let's stay on topic.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

Einstruzende said:


> What I don't like is how more than two years later we're still dealing with fallout over the happenings of the summer of 2006. Regardless of whether or not Kloeden got transfusions at Freiburg, or Valverde was doing the same thing as Basso, it's time to drop it. For the sanity of all involved. You can't keep holding the threat of sanctions over some of these guys for years with no end in sight, especially when technically speaking there were no positive tests (not saying those guys were innocent).


Does this mean that if someone manages to get away with cheating without being caught for a certain amount of time, they should be rewarded for being able to do so?


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

piano said:


> Does this mean that if someone manages to get away with cheating without being caught for a certain amount of time, they should be rewarded for being able to do so?


Isn't that the same concept behind the idea of statute of limitations?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

FondriestFan said:


> Isn't that the same concept behind the idea of statute of limitations?


Not exactly. The philosophy behind statute of limitations is about people not having to live with their mistakes forever. If you stole something years ago, but you've led a clean life ever since, that one mistake shouldn't haunt you forever.

That's not the same as rewarding people for their mistakes, although in some cases, it's not hard to view it that way.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Not exactly. The philosophy behind statute of limitations is about people not having to live with their cheating forever. If you stole something years ago, but you've never been caught, those years of mistakes shouldn't haunt you forever.


I changed your quote. Tell me if it makes what you said any better. It's essentially the same thing. To me, however, it doesn't.

I like Kloden, but we all know the truth. Unfortunately, we know the truth about a lot of riders.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Bry03cobra said:


> Why does it allways come back to Lance? No matter who gets caught doping the thread works it way to a Lance bash fest by the LA haters.
> 
> I think EPO and cycling is like steroids in the NFL, more use it than don't. Lance doped, we know. Til he fails a current test, let's stay on topic.


You don't get it. You don't make the rules here. The rules basically are no personal attacks on RBR members, and no foul language. Other than that, the character of known dopers is fair game.

You mean it's ok for LA to profit from his fame to the tune of 1million at the TDU, but no one can point out that the emperor is not wearing any clothes?

Every time his name comes up, he will be praised.....and attacked. He put himself in that position, not me.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> Not exactly. The philosophy behind statute of limitations is about people not having to live with their mistakes forever. If you stole something years ago, but you've led a clean life ever since, that one mistake shouldn't haunt you forever.
> 
> That's not the same as rewarding people for their mistakes, although in some cases, it's not hard to view it that way.


I don't see the difference between what you posted and the statute of limitations at it applies to cyclists who may have doped years ago.

Seems to be exactly the same concept.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Ok.. Back on topic here folks: pasport positives...*

Why should we assume that just becasue there is strong evidence linking a rider to doping such as a check written to a doping doctor (F Schleck) or documents and blood bags containing a rider's blood (Valverde) that they ill be stopped from racing? In other words why will Kloden be sacke dwhen Valverde and F Schleck are riding in all major races and even VS sings their praises without a hit of mention about how busted they really are?


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Bry03cobra said:


> Why does it allways come back to Lance? No matter who gets caught doping the thread works it way to a Lance bash fest by the LA haters.
> 
> I think EPO and cycling is like steroids in the NFL, more use it than don't. Lance doped, we know. Til he fails a current test, let's stay on topic.



Funny how that happens, isn't it?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

FondriestFan said:


> I don't see the difference between what you posted and the statute of limitations at it applies to cyclists who may have doped years ago.
> 
> Seems to be exactly the same concept.


My post was to clarify that the concept of statute of limitations is based on granting mercy and forgiveness.

My post referred to the legal concept. It was not referring to any sport, or any rider.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

lookrider said:


> You don't get it. You don't make the rules here. The rules basically are no personal attacks on RBR members, and no foul language. Other than that, the character of known dopers is fair game.
> 
> You mean it's ok for LA to profit from his fame to the tune of 1million at the TDU, but no one can point out that the emperor is not wearing any clothes?
> 
> Every time his name comes up, he will be praised.....and attacked. He put himself in that position, not me.



Was anyone specific personally attacked? Careful with the answer because there's a big difference between attacking someone specifically here and making a general rhetorical comment about unnamed rumor mongers. Oh... and what foul language was used? 

I'm not sure why Armstrong came up at this point. I'm not especially a big fan of any specific rider in the pro peloton these days let alone Armstrong. 

Anyway, I keep reading this oft repeated rumor about LA pocketing 1 million intended for the LS Foundation at the TDU. Is there a credible news report that verifies this rumor?


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Wasn't that clearly a joke?



Hmmm... couldn't tell... usually jokes are at least kind of funny.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

lookrider said:


> Yeah, some of the guys who are caught and suspected dopers are real nice people.



Who said they are? 

BTW, As far as I know there's big difference between suspected and caught. Listing them together as the same and even in reversed order might be a clue that there may be some confusion about the differences. Usually there are people who are first a suspect (IMO, still innocent until found guilty) and then some of those people are eventually found to be guilty (by a scientifically and judicially credible process).


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> I changed your quote. Tell me if it makes what you said any better. It's essentially the same thing. To me, however, it doesn't.
> 
> I like Kloden, but we all know the truth. Unfortunately, we know the truth about a lot of riders.



See IMO, there's a big difference between believing there's a high probability that it's true and flat out knowing. That "knowing" word sure does get thrown around here quite loosely. For example, I don't believe in God but I don't know with absolutely certainty that God doesn't exist.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Had he dropped out of Trentino I might be able to see this as somewhat plausible. But seeing as he is still riding, I find it hard to belive that anything is going to happen on Monday.
So what's going to happen? Is someone going to have a press conference? How do you know about this being released but Kloden doesn't. One has to assume that if Kloden heard of some heavily damaging evidence coming forward soon that he would stop racing and fall off the radar a little bit, like pretty much every other athlete that knew they were about to get done. 
Sure it may be true, and I have always had my doubts about the guy, but I don't think it's going to happen. Especially not on Monday.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

rocco said:


> Was anyone specific personally attacked? Careful with the answer because there's a big difference between attacking someone specifically here and making a general rhetorical comment about unnamed rumor mongers. Oh... and what foul language was used?
> 
> I'm not sure why Armstrong came up at this point. I'm not especially a big fan of any specific rider in the pro peloton these days let alone Armstrong.
> 
> Anyway, I keep reading this oft repeated rumor about LA pocketing 1 million intended for the LS Foundation at the TDU. Is there a credible news report that verifies this rumor?


Armstrong says it right here, nobody ever said it was intended for the foundation, just that he pocketed it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/200...9/lance_armstrong_tdu_prerace_pressconf_jan09

Edit: it somewhat contradicts this quote:


> "Studying the international burden of this disease, we realised there's a place for the LiveStrong message around the world. Those two things came together. Johan was receptive to the idea. I came here as a volunteer. I am racing and training every day for free. It's a global initiative, if I am second, third or eighth or 18th in the Tour that's okay with me as long as the message gets out there."


http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news..._conference_from_Tenerife_article_273421.html


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

It's a sad state of affairs when a man gets dissed for making a living and providing for his kids. I suppose you work for free?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

mtbbmet said:


> It's a sad state of affairs when a man gets dissed for making a living and providing for his kids. I suppose you work for free?


Yes, all my work for my charitable foundation is for free.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

rocco said:


> I'm not sure why Armstrong came up at this point. I'm not especially a big fan of any specific rider in the pro peloton these days let alone Armstrong.


Because he is the King, and he's ruling over his court.

When he abdicated he throne the regime started to change.

Now that he's back, he's using the same methods to rule, and they are harmful to the sport.

When you want to topple the regime you shoot for the top, not some peon who isn't even a blip on the radar.


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## Jeff G (Jul 22, 2005)

I have read many of the different threads in the doping forum and don't believe I've ever read any that were worthy of any type of reply or participation in them. What I have noticed though, is that this forum has become the spot for folks to vent on certain riders whether it be LA, Ullrich, Basso or any of their predecessors. I have yet to see anyone post any credible information other then what certain european sports journalists write or quotes from retired riders, or info seen on other internet sites. Many here give the illusion that they have secret inside information from the governing authorities, spreading rumor never does any good and it's best to wait until the truth comes out, even after the test results are made public you can log on and go to this forum and find lots of posts disputing test result either positive or negative, especially if the rider they hate doesn't get caught. I definetly do not feel that doping should be allowed in cycling or any sport for that matter, but I don't have the answer on how to stop it all together. I hope everybody is aware that as more money is at stake in cycling or any other sport for that matter the pros will continue to do whatever they can to give them the "edge" over the competition, is it right? As far as I'm concerned no. This forum should be used to discuss how the doping problem affects the sport of cycling, not to launch personal attacks on riders from behind the screen of your computer, you never know who reads these and really folks do you really think you are that "hidden" when on a internet forum?


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## BudFox (Apr 25, 2009)

MG537 said:


> If it's a CSC rider then you may be looking at Cancellara, Arvesen maybe even a Schleck. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Arvesen is clean. Will not be on a list.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

tron said:


> I like Kloden. He has a suspicious past (T-mobile) but I assumed him to be currently riding clean. I thought the "news" was coming today, whats the word on if its coming at all?


It's right here: http://www.velonews.com/article/91154/german-magazine-details-telekom-doping-programs


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Hoorah for Jeff G.*



Jeff G said:


> I have read many of the different threads in the doping forum and don't believe I've ever read any that were worthy of any type of reply or participation in them. What I have noticed though, is that this forum has become the spot for folks to vent on certain riders whether it be LA, Ullrich, Basso or any of their predecessors. I have yet to see anyone post any credible information other then what certain european sports journalists write or quotes from retired riders, or info seen on other internet sites. Many here give the illusion that they have secret inside information from the governing authorities, spreading rumor never does any good and it's best to wait until the truth comes out, even after the test results are made public you can log on and go to this forum and find lots of posts disputing test result either positive or negative, especially if the rider they hate doesn't get caught. I definetly do not feel that doping should be allowed in cycling or any sport for that matter, but I don't have the answer on how to stop it all together. I hope everybody is aware that as more money is at stake in cycling or any other sport for that matter the pros will continue to do whatever they can to give them the "edge" over the competition, is it right? As far as I'm concerned no. This forum should be used to discuss how the doping problem affects the sport of cycling, not to launch personal attacks on riders from behind the screen of your computer, you never know who reads these and really folks do you really think you are that "hidden" when on a internet forum?



I agree, but the haters won't. Pure and simple speculation drives this forum, for better or for worse. It's why it's here. 

bt


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Well, it does appear Kloden has been mentioned in conjunction with the Freiburg clinic.

Cyclingnews is reporting it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr26news


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## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> Well, it does appear Kloden has been mentioned in conjunction with the Freiburg clinic.
> 
> So what happens now? Will this affect Astana? If so, how? Or should it affect Columbia?


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*News from a "hater."*



eyebob said:


> I agree, but the haters won't. Pure and simple speculation drives this forum, for better or for worse. It's why it's here.
> 
> bt


http://www.velonews.com/article/91154/german-magazine-details-telekom-doping-programs


German magazine details Telekom doping programs

By Agence France Presse
Posted Apr. 25, 2009
German cycling team Telekom, later known as T-Mobile, was guilty of systematic doping between 1995 and 2006, Der Spiegel magazine claims in Monday's edition. 

The report, based on the conclusions of an independent inquiry, accuses former T-Mobile riders Andreas Klöden, who now rides for Astana, and Matthias Kessler, who was sacked by Astana in 2007, of using testosterone and doping products. 

Both went to Freiburg University to have blood transfusions on July 2 2006 along with team-mate Patrik Sinkewitz, who later made his confession to a German Cycling Union (BDR) inquiry, the report claims. 

In July 2007, Sinkewitz was fired by T-Mobile after a test revealed he had abnormally high levels of testosterone and he later admitted using a banned gel and using banned blood-booster EPO as well as having had blood transfusions. 

He was later banned for a year and heavily fined by the BDR, but is still fighting a lawsuit over damages from his 2007 doping offence. 

The commission's report could now have serious legal consequences for the cyclists named, says Der Speigel. 

Having started life as Team Telekom, the German team, changed its name to T-Mobile in 2007 and then lost its title sponsor, the German communications giant. The team’s ProTour license was taken over by American Bob Stapleton, who reorganized the program under the auspices of his sports management firm, Highroad sports. Now known as Team Columbia-Highroad, the team is registered in the United States. 

For the last two years, the independent commission on behalf of Freiburg University has been looking into the conduct of team doctors Lothar Heinrich and Andreas Schmid who were both sacked from the university in 2007. 

The doctors admitted two years ago that they had been involved in doping Telekom cyclists back in 1999 and were later dismissed while the report says they falsified documents and masked payments. 


The 64-page report concludes doping was widespread up until 2006 after the inquiry heard testimonies from 77 witnesses and evaluated 58,000 blood samples, while also looking at the German team's accounts. 




http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,621083,00.html

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2009/20090425_121831_une-enquete-accable-kloden.html:yesnod: :sad: :yikes: :ciappa:


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

WAZCO said:


> FondriestFan said:
> 
> 
> > Well, it does appear Kloden has been mentioned in conjunction with the Freiburg clinic.
> ...


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Whoa Looky*

It's still speculative to assume that the article is a) well-researched and b) correct.

Let the facts come out and have it reviewed by a knowledgeble and (hopefully) unbiased court/arbitor, THEN we'll call it what it is. Until then. Speculation.

bt


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Just FYI , Der Spiegel is who broke most of Puerto*

Der Spiegel is the magazine/newspaper that broke th emost details about Puerto clinic. They have credibility. in this arena:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,425939,00.html


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*The tin foil hat a little too tight?*



eyebob said:


> It's still speculative to assume that the article is a) well-researched and b) correct.
> 
> Let the facts come out and have it reviewed by a knowledgeble and (hopefully) unbiased court/arbitor, THEN we'll call it what it is. Until then. Speculation.
> 
> bt


How's your reading comprehension? Maybe you can write to Freiburg University for the report and scrutinize it? There are *FACTS * in that report. 


As if it's not obvious enough that a large majority of the top teams were doped to the gills during the 90's, the Armstrong Era, and Floyd's fraud, we have a commission issuing a report. And the doctors involved admitting their involvement.

http://www.velonews.com/article/91154/german-magazine-details-telekom-doping-programs

_For the last two years, the independent commission on behalf of Freiburg University has been looking into the conduct of team doctors Lothar Heinrich and Andreas Schmid who were both sacked from the university in 2007. 

The doctors admitted two years ago that they had been involved in doping Telekom cyclists back in 1999 and were later dismissed while the report says they falsified documents and masked payments. 

The 64-page report concludes doping was widespread up until 2006 after the inquiry heard testimonies from 77 witnesses and evaluated 58,000 blood samples, while also looking at the German team's accounts. ​_
You realize that Velonews employs professional journalists who are held to ethical standards? What appears above is a straightforward news story.

It's also been reported in the following publications.

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,621083,00.html

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2009/20090425_121831_une-enquete-accable-kloden.html:yesnod:

If I was citing the National Enquirer you might have a point.

Do you think we can expect a libel lawsuit by Klodi against Velonews, Der Spiegel and L' equipe?

Don't hold your breath.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Old_school_nik said:


> Der Spiegel is the magazine/newspaper that broke th emost details about Puerto clinic. They have credibility. in this arena:
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,425939,00.html


And more importantly, the Der Spiegel article is about the issuance of a report by an independent commission on behalf of Freiburg University . It's not an investigative piece where their reporter uncovered the facts.

They just have to be credible as a news organization, which they are. 

This is not a 60 Minutes type expose.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2004)

Jeff G said:


> I have read many of the different threads in the doping forum and don't believe I've ever read any that were worthy of any type of reply or participation in them. What I have noticed though, is that this forum has become the spot for folks to vent on certain riders whether it be LA, Ullrich, Basso or any of their predecessors. I have yet to see anyone post any credible information other then what certain european sports journalists write or quotes from retired riders, or info seen on other internet sites. Many here give the illusion that they have secret inside information from the governing authorities, spreading rumor never does any good and it's best to wait until the truth comes out, even after the test results are made public you can log on and go to this forum and find lots of posts disputing test result either positive or negative, especially if the rider they hate doesn't get caught. I definetly do not feel that doping should be allowed in cycling or any sport for that matter, but I don't have the answer on how to stop it all together. I hope everybody is aware that as more money is at stake in cycling or any other sport for that matter the pros will continue to do whatever they can to give them the "edge" over the competition, is it right? As far as I'm concerned no. This forum should be used to discuss how the doping problem affects the sport of cycling, not to launch personal attacks on riders from behind the screen of your computer, you never know who reads these and really folks do you really think you are that "hidden" when on a internet forum?



Just in the past couple of weeks people were talking about Tyler and Klodi before anything broke in the press. Its not venting or rumors. All of the people you mention above have doped and deserve to be spoken about for what they did.


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## Jeff G (Jul 22, 2005)

The report mentioned is from 2006, this I guess goes back to the earlier posts about statute of limitations? I'm sure these ethical reporters could dig hard enough and find evidence and people/witnesses to talk about doping from the 50s and 60s, do we then chastise those former pros? Has the UCI pulled Kloden's license based on the "Der Spiegel" article? I haven't heard anyhting on that. Aren't Kessler and Sinkewitz on the sidelines currently?


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Jeff G said:


> The report mentioned is from 2006, this I guess goes back to the earlier posts about statute of limitations? I'm sure these ethical reporters could dig hard enough and find evidence and people/witnesses to talk about doping from the 50s and 60s, do we then chastise those former pros? Has the UCI pulled Kloden's license based on the "Der Spiegel" article? I haven't heard anyhting on that. Aren't Kessler and Sinkewitz on the sidelines currently?


The report mentioned in the article hasn't even been released yet and it's pertaining to information on systemic doping from '95 to 2006.

If they would have come out with this at the time of the Sinkewitz revelations, I'm quite sure you would have said "it's a rush to judgement" whatever the hell that means.

That's Johnny Cochran's legacy. Publicizing distortions and misperceptions about the way the law works. Thanks Johnny!

Do you realize that it takes a while for the truth to catch up to a lie?

It took more than 10 years to get the goods on Riis. The response of Riis?

*I'm not a worthy champion.*

You see the Madoff scandal?

It's been going on for years. Maybe a book will come out with the extent of his fraud in a year or two. That's pretty early.

Forget the UCI and Kloden's license. The more important question to ask is whether sporting fraud is a criminal offense in Germany or other EU countries.

Germany seems to have had it with dopers.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Again, Whoa!*

All we have right now is an article about the report, which, isn't finalized and isn't due to come out until mid-May. It was leaked to Der Spiegel. How about we wait a few weeks for the real deal to come out, then scrutinize it.

Geez, good thing we're not all being judged by these standards. We don't really know enough to comment yet. Just enough for some of you to start off on your witch hunt. When the report is finalized and scrutinized then, we can have a discussion of the dopers. How many do you think will be named? Dunno. Can you imagine what a panty wad it'll create if _*insert name here*_ was somebody you just _knew_ doped but they are not named?

OMG.

bt


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