# Pinarello Dogma 2 or Colnago C59



## joshf (Aug 5, 2011)

Hi All,

It's time to replace my 2004 Serotta Ottrott. That frame could probably last me another 10 years but I want something lighter and stiffer. I've always wanted an Italian frame and I am deciding between the Pinarello Dogma 2 or the Colnago C59.

I like the Pinarello because I think it's a great looking bike and I dig the lines on it. Also, it's .17 Lbs lighter than the C59 which means I'll get my fat arse up the climbs .0004 seconds faster (Very Important.) I'd go with BOB paint.

I like the C59 because I have wanted a Colnago since I started racing in high school many moons ago. I think it's really cool to keep the traditional lugged frame and use modern materials. I also like that the whole frame is made in Italy and not just painted there. Also, I liked seeing the bike in this year's TDF and watching Voelkler in yellow for 10 days on it. I'd go with the 2012 Nero paint.

Either way I can't go wrong. They both feel great and I'll be stoked whichever way I go. I'm hoping some of you have some advice on why I should go one way or the other.

The rest of the kit is already on my Ottrott. SR11, Enve Smart 3.4 Tubular Wheels, Enve Carbon Bars & Stem, Fizik Antares. And of course my Garmin Edge 500 so I can see how fast(I mean slow) I get up the climbs.

Thanks!


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## jasont (Sep 5, 2005)

I've never been a fan of the odd curvy stays/fork on Pinarello but recently, perhaps it's grown on me because I'm intrigued by the Dogma and the Dogma 2. Nice looking bikes.

That said, I'd probably still go for the C59. Ride comparisons aside (because I've not ridden either), the C59 has a more traditional look that appeals to me.

So, C59 in traditional geometry for me.


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

I'm curious as to whether the lugs on the Colnago are actually a separate piece, or is it just molded to look like a lug. Either construction method seems like an odd choice to me.
And the curvy lines on the Pinarello don't appeal to me, but I know plenty of people that love the ride.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

The Dogma 2 is not a lightweight frame by any means. Frame is around 1220 grams or so. 
However, it is a very nice ride and a superb descender. I had the pleasure to ride it in the Gran Fondo Pinarello and was very pleased with it, especially during the descents of the Grappa. 

I have owned a Prince carbon as well. The difference between the two probably requires are more refined sensory ability than mine, but I would stay that I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the Dogma 2 other than it is ridiculously overpriced. Compared to my Prince, maybe it is a bit more comfortable, but not a huge difference in comfort.


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## vettracer (Jan 12, 2011)

turbogrover said:


> I'm curious as to whether the lugs on the Colnago are actually a separate piece, or is it just molded to look like a lug. Either construction method seems like an odd choice to me.
> And the curvy lines on the Pinarello don't appeal to me, but I know plenty of people that love the ride.


The C59 is made from lugs and tubes. See this article for pictures of them being built.

FEATURES: BEING THERE: THE COLNAGO FACTORY TOUR


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

vettracer said:


> The C59 is made from lugs and tubes. See this article for pictures of them being built.
> 
> FEATURES: BEING THERE: THE COLNAGO FACTORY TOUR


Cool, thanks!
Now I understand why its done that way, but I would rather have a carbon frame without the lugs. (unless I was getting a custom geometry made for me) Its definitely old fashioned.

I would choose a poll selection of "other"


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

If you're willing to pay that much for an Italian frame, I would suggest getting the one that is actually made in Italy.
Personally I've never liked the wavy look of the Dogma. I've always thought the C59 geometry was a bit too conservative, but it's growing on me more and more. Plus you're talking about a carbon lugged bike, which is at least as original as a wavy fork.


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## 2cflyr (Apr 9, 2002)

turbogrover said:


> I'm curious as to whether the lugs on the Colnago are actually a separate piece, or is it just molded to look like a lug. Either construction method seems like an odd choice to me.
> And the curvy lines on the Pinarello don't appeal to me, but I know plenty of people that love the ride.


the lugs are carbon and the main tubes are basically glued in. there's a thing on youtube on how they made the EPS and it's the same method. 

Chapter Two: The full creation of an EPS frame - YouTube

the C59 is a great bike if you want to feel every piece of grit in the road. i've gotten to ride two of them. i'll take a cx1 instead.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

*Custom Carbon--for real*

My next was going to be a Dogma 2 but I'm thinking about this now:

Sarto Cycles - Handmade custom frames for Triathlon, Road and TT made in Italy :: Forte - handmade custom frame made in Italy Sarto Cycles

Custom geometry in 30 days!
Cheaper than the Pinarello or Colnago and tailored exactly to your needs, weight, comfort.
I think these are the guys that make Cipollini frames, and they are very nice.
Delivery is probably quicker too.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

turbogrover said:


> Cool, thanks!
> Now I understand why its done that way, but I would rather have a carbon frame without the lugs. (unless I was getting a custom geometry made for me) Its definitely old fashioned.
> 
> I would choose a poll selection of "other"


If you want custom carbon but don't want lugs, there are options out there including Cyfac's tube-to-tube construction.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I think the Dogma looks like "aggression" the Colnago looks "classy"... for carbon bikes. Both of the bikes look "different" in a time when so many CF bikes are beginning to look the same. 

My LBS sells both, so I have had some experience with the DOGMA and the C59 Italia LE. 

You really need to think about who you really are and how you really ride and not how you dream of riding. 

With both bikes I am pleased to see the companies pulling back from the "lightness" trend in exchange for a better, more durable bike. Both bikes have massive head tubes. and similar geometries. I am a little surprised that the Dogma2 has such a slack HTA. Colnago does not like to list theirs. They both have very small rear triangles. The Dogma has a shorter TT and the C59 is a bit long for a good, stable line. 

For me, I would go for the C59. The tubes are smaller (much less CF) and Colnago changes tube lengths as the geometry changes, which Pinarello doesn't do so much of. For Pinarello a CS length of 406mm is fine for most people with an adjustment to 408mm for taller people. Colnago changes the CS length for each size from a 397mm to 413mm. This tells me the Colnago might be more fine tuned. 

Funny, after looking at these two geometries they surprisingly line up very well (almost exactly) with my custom titanium race bike, which was actually a little cheaper than either of these two bikes.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Ten minutes after unpacking the Dogma I forgot about the curves. People get used to anything I guess.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Personally, I don't mind the looks. Maybe when it first came out I was surprised, but at least they own the mould. It looks like a "mean" bike.


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## minez01 (Mar 10, 2011)

I voted based only on looks, and voted for the Dogma. If it was any other colour and not BoB, I would have voted for the C59, but I love the stealth Dogma's.

However in terms of a rational decision, I'd probably go with the one that fits your style best, and the one with the best functionality (as you decide). Also, does Pinarello have only a 2 year frame warranty on Dogma 2's? If so, that might be another factor, as expensive imports don't come cheap.

Anyway good luck with your decision


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Register on the Pinarello site and you get a three year warranty.
I bought it with a Visa card that adds a year to most warranties, so it is effectively four years.
By then I will probably want something new anyway.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Register on the Pinarello site and you get a three year warranty.
> I bought it with a Visa card that adds a year to most warranties, so it is effectively four years.
> By then I will probably want something new anyway.


The warranties of both companies are disgracefully poor, especially considering the cost.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm not sure about that. Three or four years is a long time for a manufacturing defect to remain latent.
There is a bathtub curve for product failure. Most products with an inherent manufacturing defect will fail soon after they start being used. This is well documented. Then the curve bottoms out and rises again at the end of the product's life cycle.


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## Anthony3 (Aug 29, 2011)

Go with the pinarello dogma I mean you can't go wrong with it it evenly keeps your pedaling on both feet by changing up the back of the frame that's what I read anyways


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## tanong (Aug 25, 2011)

Pinarello looks more beautiful.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

the best part about both these bikes is that they offer many sizes, so you should be able to get a frame that fits. most manufacturers now do the S,M,L,XL route to save costs, which is just plain greedy based on the mark up.


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## JWALK (Apr 14, 2011)

I know these are not the exact bikes, but I just switched from a C40 to a Dogma. I am very happy with my decision. The Dogma is significantly stiffer and yet more comfortable. I initially did not care for the looks of the Dogma, but know I find it a beautifully aggressive looking bike. Ride both if you can and decide which fells best to you.


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## joep721 (May 4, 2009)

JWALK said:


> I know these are not the exact bikes, but I just switched from a C40 to a Dogma. I am very happy with my decision. The Dogma is significantly stiffer and yet more comfortable. I initially did not care for the looks of the Dogma, but know I find it a beautifully aggressive looking bike. *Ride both if you can and decide which fells best to you.*


I have been trying to determine if I want to move up to the C59 but when I asked the LBS that carries Colnago if they had a C59 to test, all they did was chuckle. They are very hard to find. Maybe some shops have them but in Central Florida there are none.


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## GStevenson (Jul 10, 2011)

If you live in San Francisco you should drive down to Velo Tech Cycles in Palo Alto, which carries both and, I believe, has a couple of demo bikes. It is a small shop that basically specializes in C59s and Dogmas.


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

I am not a fan of the squiggly lines of the Pinarello. I voted C59 becuas eof the classic looks and geometry. 2cflyr is absolutely correct about the ride though! you will feel every little piece of the road with the Colnago!


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

joep721 said:


> Maybe some shops have them but in Central Florida there are none.


where in c. fla? check Brick City cyclery in Ocala. I was there last summer and they had quite a colnago collection.


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## joep721 (May 4, 2009)

Fignon's Barber said:


> where in c. fla? check Brick City cyclery in Ocala. I was there last summer and they had quite a colnago collection.


I live west of Orlando in Winter Garden. I need to call them tomorrow to see if they have a C59. It's on my short list.

GStevenson, I am glad that I don't live in SF. Well, I think my wife is glad we don't live in SF.


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## duz10s (Aug 5, 2011)

I voted C59 because I just bought one and love it, very stiff but very comfortable, dont agree you feel every little bump on the road but guess depends what other components you are running.

Good luck with your choice both bikes very much high end so cant go wrong


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

+1

If you pump your tires up to the max, you'll probably feel every bump too. Lots of factors beyond the frame go into the feeling of a bike.


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## joshf (Aug 5, 2011)

GStevenson said:


> If you live in San Francisco you should drive down to Velo Tech Cycles in Palo Alto, which carries both and, I believe, has a couple of demo bikes. It is a small shop that basically specializes in C59s and Dogmas.


Good to know!


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## ciclisto (Nov 8, 2005)

*my 2C*

These two are from storied Italian frame makers... one now makes them in Italy from scratch-Colnago- the other asian made and finished in Italy ..both have nice paint the Colnago is exceptional and having just changed my seatpost on a C 50 I took a flashlight to look into the frame ... the Colnago is finished inside as good as the outside...doubt this level of precision on an asian mold. The Pinarello is very curvy etc. asymetrical etc. And I see them more often than most places here in SO CAL. having 2 Colnagos I would say it is the dream bike and will keep its value and will be one of the last made in Italy frames soon. The other is not special so for this type cash go with the real thing. Monica Belluci vs. Asian wannabe.


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## maxxevv (Jan 18, 2009)

GStevenson said:


> If you live in San Francisco you should drive down to Velo Tech Cycles in Palo Alto, which carries both and, I believe, has a couple of demo bikes. It is a small shop that basically specializes in C59s and Dogmas.


You could take the Caltrain there too. Its just a few minutes walk from the Palo Alto Caltrain station from what I see on the map.


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## JWALK (Apr 14, 2011)

ciclisto said:


> These two are from storied Italian frame makers... one now makes them in Italy from scratch-Colnago- the other asian made and finished in Italy ..both have nice paint the Colnago is exceptional and having just changed my seatpost on a C 50 I took a flashlight to look into the frame ... the Colnago is finished inside as good as the outside...doubt this level of precision on an asian mold. The Pinarello is very curvy etc. asymetrical etc. And I see them more often than most places here in SO CAL. having 2 Colnagos I would say it is the dream bike and will keep its value and will be one of the last made in Italy frames soon. The other is not special so for this type cash go with the real thing. Monica Belluci vs. Asian wannabe.


So, are all of the other Colnagos that are made in Taiwan, Asian wannabes as well?


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

Just buy the prettiest one and leave us alone.


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## joshf (Aug 5, 2011)

I guess I should have included an "Other" choice in the vote. I tested the Parlee Z5 SL and loved it. I felt like I was drafting off someone, riding alone. It should be sub 14 lbs with pedals & cages. Going with the Parlee...


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## hulktezza (Sep 21, 2011)

guys, sorry to ask in this thread coz i failed to post a new thread ...currently pinarello FP2 (2009) is my ride ...half carbon. I was thinking to change to full carbon frame either Prince or Stradalli but my weight is my concern ....110kg can the cf frame stand my weight,....i already try to get some info from both manufacturer site but until now no body reply to the question.....any idea?:idea:


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I see someone is trying to raise Stradalli's profile from the purchaser and brander of Asian open mold frames to a premium brand.


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## hulktezza (Sep 21, 2011)

Dajianshan said:


> I see someone is trying to raise Stradalli's profile from the purchaser and brander of Asian open mold frames to a premium brand.


yup you got that rite mate ...their basic frame now cost nearly usd1k, i rode one about a month ago on our weekly weekend warrior xtvt...about 122km....stable, stiff, make u aware of road condition, aggressive and very,very responsive during corner : (....

check out their website n facebook ......impressive for an asian open mode frame daaaa


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I saw it in CF black before it was a Stradalli. It was... meh!


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## hulktezza (Sep 21, 2011)

u r just like a doctor witnessing a newborn....hehehe


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

hulktezza said:


> check out their website n facebook ......impressive for an asian open mode frame daaaa


Enough shilling already.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Enough shilling already.


really. the only thing missing was a link to a coupon.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

joshf said:


> I guess I should have included an "Other" choice in the vote. I tested the Parlee Z5 SL and loved it. I felt like I was drafting off someone, riding alone.


You were dreaming. There's no meaningful difference between that one and any other high-end bike.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

Stradalli? LOL.


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## SROC3 (Jul 20, 2009)

hulktezza said:


> guys, sorry to ask in this thread coz i failed to post a new thread ...currently pinarello FP2 (2009) is my ride ...half carbon. I was thinking to change to full carbon frame either Prince or Stradalli but my weight is my concern ....110kg can the cf frame stand my weight,....i already try to get some info from both manufacturer site but until now no body reply to the question.....any idea?:idea:


I have a Paris. Love it. Rides Great!


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## snnrforever (Nov 30, 2010)

I own both bikes -- the C59 with Super Record and Fulcrum Zero wheels while the Pinarello Dogma 2 comes with the same drive train but rolls with Shamal Ultra. Needless to say, the Dogma 2 is a better bike between the two. It is more solid and alive compared to the C59 on any terrain.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

^ Interesting to hear from someone who has both!


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## __PG__ (Jan 25, 2012)

The tubes and lugs for the C59 are all made in Asia. They are shipped to Italy, where an Italian man puts a paint brush into a tub of epoxy, applies it to the tubes and lugs tand glues them together.


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## bach927 (Jun 6, 2012)

Dogma


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## roberman (Nov 19, 2012)

*roberman*

C59 or Dogma 2? Kinda like ford/chevy or should I say Ferrari/Lamborghini! If you try to decide between these two great bikes on these forums it will confuse more than help. We all voice what our preferences are and always will.
My 2 cents worth, I love the C59, the looks, ride, and the fact after Mr. Colnago is gone I think it will be the end of an era we may never see again. The man to this day is involved in the build of a bike that bears his name.
I will have my "Made in Italy" C59 until the end of my bike riding days.


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## demondescender (Nov 21, 2012)

*Colnago*

Colnago....it's just gotta be! :thumbsup:


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## Luki (Nov 9, 2012)

Colnago c59


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Kryst2al said:


> I would choose a poll selection of "other"


me too!


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## Worf (Nov 5, 2012)

Pinarello, always.
If not, at least Italian bike with Italian components.


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## c50jim (Jan 15, 2009)

I've owned more Colnagos than I can count (10 right now, including two C40s still new in the boxes). I haven't ridden a C59 yet - I couldn't get one my size for my SR EPS group so built it with a Wilier Cento Uno that I'd rate as similar to my C40s in ride quality but much stiffer at the bottom bracket.

I also owned a Dogma Di2 for a while. Bought it Saturday in la Villa, rode it Sunday in the 2010 Maratona dles Dolomiti and loved it. Crashed it at 58.3 km/hr on Monday (speed per my Garmin). The bike was sturdy and survived that crash needing new bar and shifter hoods with a scratched left crank arm. Once I could ride again after 10 months, I tried it on my local roads at home, some of which are just chip seal rather than good pavement. It's a really fine bike but much quicker handling than a Colnago - not a criticism, just something you'd need to consider. Mine also had a nicer paint job than most new Colnagos (some sparkly red job that looked great). I just couldn't get comfortable on the bike because of what I'd done riding it (I don't remember the crash but from the way my son who was riding with me describes it, the bike wasn't at fault, just the rider) and found I was only happy with my Colnago (just one C40 at that time). I sold my Parlees because they didn't feel right and put the parts from them on NOS C40s that I found in 2011 (got two more last month) so I wouldn't vote other if you had Z5 there (although mine were 2 Z1s and a Z4) - light and OK but not Italian handling, either Colnago or Pinarello, nor Wilier or Pegoretti either. I sold the Dogma to a friend with a guarantee in case it broke from the crash. After two seasons of riding and racing, he still loves it. I think that the durability of the Pinarello in that situation is an asset many carbon frames wouldn't have. Since my original C40 from 1995 is still rideable despite falling down the back stairs at least once and probably 50,000 km of riding, I'd guess that Colnago is OK there too.


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## NTA (Apr 4, 2010)

:thumbsup:
Pinarello, always !!!

SEASONS GREETINGS from PINARELLO


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

The Pinarello line of bicycles are supposedly, according to Competition Cyclist, the most crash resistant carbon fiber bikes on the market, that may be something to consider. By crash resistant I mean it will hold up to impacts better then other CF bikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrjId0-K-Ts

And this guy uses Pinarello for his stunts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZmJtYaUTa0&sns=em


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

c50jim said:


> I've owned more Colnagos than I can count (10 right now, including two C40s still new in the boxes).


Dang, you need to change your name to 10colnagojim! Where are you finding the NOS C40s? I would love to find one to squirrel away for 20 yrs. I take it that you feel the C40 is a very special bike, huh? I love mine. The ride is perfect!


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## Dariob (Nov 15, 2012)

I go with the Dogma 2. Unique ride.


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## maxxevv (Jan 18, 2009)

Ride-Fly said:


> Dang, you need to change your name to 10colnagojim! Where are you finding the NOS C40s? I would love to find one to squirrel away for 20 yrs. I take it that you feel the C40 is a very special bike, huh? I love mine. The ride is perfect!


If you love the C40, then the C50 and Look 585 are very close substitutes. All excellent all day riding bikes.


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## shinntonic (Aug 1, 2011)

My vote is for the Dogma. I currently have a FP Quattro and love riding it.


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## fatiredflyer (Mar 12, 2002)

> I will have my "Made in Italy" C59 until the end of my bike riding days.


That's how I feel about my C50.
The only thing that will replace it is a C59.
Pinarello makes fine bikes.
Just not for me.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

I'll be contrarian/thread crap-ish: both are absurdly overpriced frames that use very specious provenence claims, snake-oil frame material / manufacturing technique claims and their respective brands' long history justify their pricing. However, the Dogma 2 is ridiculously overdesigned and absurdly flashy on top of these issues. I'll take the C59.


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## shinntonic (Aug 1, 2011)

Yes, I agree both are expensive and there's nothing wrong with C59. I just prefer the looks of the Dogma.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Aren't Pinarellos made in Taiwan? I know the C-59 is made in Italy. I've always been happy with my C-40, so I'd go Colnago even though the paint jobs aren't cool anymore. To me, the Dogma always looked like it was designed to be flashy. 

More to the point -- Why are you asking a bunch of idiots on RBR? If you can't make up your mind, then maybe you need to keep shopping rather than try to have us make it up for you.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I think all Pinarellos are made in Asia except for the Dogma 2.
Same can be said of Colnagos except for the C59 (and the Master, I think).



pmf said:


> Aren't Pinarellos made in Taiwan? I know the C-59 is made in Italy. I've always been happy with my C-40, so I'd go Colnago even though the paint jobs aren't cool anymore. To me, the Dogma always looked like it was designed to be flashy.
> 
> More to the point -- Why are you asking a bunch of idiots on RBR? If you can't make up your mind, then maybe you need to keep shopping rather than try to have us make it up for you.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

pmf said:


> Aren't Pinarellos made in Taiwan? I know the C-59 is made in Italy.


The country where a frame is "made" is not a reliable indication of its quality, specifications or performance. Even if it did matter, as others here have pointed out "made in Italy" in the case of the C59 means Asian tubes bonded together in a jig in Italy.

Overall, this is a meaningless thing to worry about. "Myth of Origin" and all that. If you want to buy a given frame, what country it's made in should be the last consideration.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Hiro11 said:


> The country where a frame is "made" is not a reliable indication of its quality, specifications or performance. Even if it did matter, as others here have pointed out "made in Italy" in the case of the C59 means Asian tubes bonded together in a jig in Italy.
> 
> Overall, this is a meaningless thing to worry about. "Myth of Origin" and all that. If you want to buy a given frame, what country it's made in should be the last consideration.


True, country of origin doesn't always translate to quality.

Having said that, I would consider bonding to be an important and integral part of assembling the bike. Bonding part is probably harder to execute and more crucial than laying up tubes.

And then there's also the painting and finishing which is done in Italy.

Having looked at and comapred both a C59 and S-Works Tarmac, I can say the C59 finishing exudes higher quality than the S-works. And if I were paying $7000 - $8000 for a bike, I would expect equisite paint & finishing, and not just another tool to a race.


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## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

Lugs are timeless. Carbon is modern. The name Colnago epitomizes cycling pure. The C59 is pretty much the best of everything without going over the top and becoming gimmicky. I bought my Bianchi 928SL for the same reasons. 
View attachment 273394


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Neither bike is made in Italy. They are allowed to say that by Italian law because any minor finishing work gets a made in Italy sticker. Both are made by Giant in Taiwan. Might as well get a Giant and skip the markup.


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## c50jim (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't think that's correct. The Colnago now uses Asian carbon since the Italian supplier went broke a couple of years ago. However, the C59 is still made in Italy, unlike the other carbon Colnagos.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

darwinosx said:


> Neither bike is made in Italy. They are allowed to say that by Italian law because any minor finishing work gets a made in Italy sticker. Both are made by Giant in Taiwan. Might as well get a Giant and skip the markup.


Great idea...except for one small problem, especially in regards to the Pinarello. The Pinarello carbon fiber make up is engineered by Pinarello, it has been tested to be the toughest carbon fiber bike on the market. And Giant has no bike in their inventory to compete either in looks or durability of the Pinarello. And Giant won't unconditionally guarantee satisfaction like Competitive Cyclist will do with any bike they sell including the Pinarello. 

Problem is 95% of all bikes sold today are built in Taiwan or China, so I guess you should just go on E-Bay and buy a generic carbon fiber bike for pennies on the dollar. So if that's your concern then why buy from a bike made in any country except for America, at least then your keeping some of your money here, I say some because all the components on the American made bike will come from Asia. At least Giant who makes a lot of bike brands is made in Taiwan who embraces the western ideology of business, pollution control, and human rights, and not China who could give a rats ass about any of that stuff.

If you want a real Italian made carbon fiber frame then you need to buy either a Grandis, Visual, Sarto, ParkPre, top line models of either Moser, Viner and Basso. But Giant carbon fiber factory has more years experience building bike frames then any other factory on the planet. So do you want a bike built from experience or an Italian bike with just a few years experience building one? 

If you really want to get crazy about carbon fiber then read this: The Dirty Secret Of Carbon Fiber - Science News - redOrbit Yeah I know, this is America, and in reality no one really cares about pollution as long as we don't see it happening then we don't care and we think we're doing the honorable thing of cleaning up the environment as we stick out our chest in pride and drive around in our little hybrids saying "look at me, I'm better then the rest of you because I'm doing something about pollution"! What a load of bullsnot.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

froze said:


> Great idea...except for one small problem, especially in regards to the Pinarello. The Pinarello carbon fiber make up is engineered by Pinarello, it has been tested to be the toughest carbon fiber bike on the market.


Can you share with us where this testing was done, please? Thanks.



> And Giant has no bike in their inventory to compete either in looks or durability of the Pinarello. And Giant won't unconditionally guarantee satisfaction like Competitive Cyclist will do with any bike they sell including the Pinarello.
> 
> Problem is 95% of all bikes sold today are built in Taiwan or China, so I guess you should just go on E-Bay and buy a generic carbon fiber bike for pennies on the dollar. So if that's your concern then why buy from a bike made in any country except for America, at least then your keeping some of your money here, I say some because all the components on the American made bike will come from Asia. At least Giant who makes a lot of bike brands is made in Taiwan who embraces the western ideology of business, pollution control, and human rights, and not China who could give a rats ass about any of that stuff.


I believe a lot of Giant's bikes are made in the PRC.
Inside Guide | Giant China’s new Kunshan factory «

Just like Foxconn, a Taiwanese company, manufactures the bulk of their products in the PRC.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

darwinosx said:


> Neither bike is made in Italy. They are allowed to say that by Italian law because any minor finishing work gets a made in Italy sticker. Both are made by Giant in Taiwan. Might as well get a Giant and skip the markup.


Colnago C59 is made in the Colnago factory in Italy.

The videos are on youtube, and if you ask, they will sometimes let you see it in person.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

orange_julius said:


> Can you share with us where this testing was done, please? Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Supposedly the Pina models are all made in Taiwan from all the information I could gleam from the internet.

Also I had already gave the information about the Pina supposedly being the most crash resistant CF currently on the market on an earlier post on this thread. Pina engineers developed a way to make the fork much more resilient to impact then any other fork on the market and that technology is built into their bike frames with the Dogma being the most resistant of any of their other models, but the other models are better then other brands. Competitive Cyclist informed me of this supposed fact when I was inquiring about the bikes they sell. Also a stunt cyclist by the name of Martyn Ashton that performs all sorts of weird stunts on a road bike will only use a Pina due to it's construction; you can watch him on You Tube.

Personally if Competitive Cyclist did not have that satisfaction guarantee business with their bikes they sell, I wouldn't buy a CF bike and would get a TI bike from Bikes Direct because TI would hold up for life; but since they have that guarantee then I may, though haven't decided 100% and I need to find employment first, I may opt for the Pina. Since I got laid off I have been given more time to think about it; and I have several bikes anyways so it's not something I needed to get, I just wanted a newer lighter road bike.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I'll bet the Pinarello is not the most crash resistant carbon bike.

Plenty of carbon mtb bikes will beat it.

Pinkbike Visits The Santa Cruz Test Lab Video - YouTube

The Dogma frame and fork are heavy compared to most highend bikes. This means it has more carbon material and probably make it more crash resistant. Same reason why mtb carbon bikes are more crash resistant. Nothing secretive here, not engineering magic from Pinarello. Use more material to make a frame tougher is the key.

And I would not put too much stock in the advertising video showing Pinarello engineering. It looks like typical stuff that any carbon bike makers can do to me, Santa Cruz, Niner, Specialized, Ibis, Trek, etc... they use the same engineering testing. There are now downhill mtb bikes made of carbon fiber.

The real engineer here is Giant. If Giant the the biggest carbon frame maker, then they probably know more about carbon than Pinarello or anyone in the bike industry for that matter. And the engineering here mainly boils down to adding more carbon fiber material will make a frame tougher. Not rocket science.

IMO, if you want real value and performance without the "Italian mystique", then get a Giant. Plain and simple. But if you have to get "Italian", then get whatever your heart desire, all nice and great,.. just don't fool yourself into thinking that your Italian bike will make you better at anything you could do on any other bike.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Just voted. Own a C-59. It rides great, Very comfortable on long rides, and loves to climb. The Pinarello comes across as pure marketing. It wants you to believe it is Italian, but everything is done in Taiwan. I'm not aware that the unique shape of Pinarello has any science or testing to back it up. Curvy for the sake of being curvy and as soon as you buy one they come out with a new model and the poof what you bought is obsolete. People still love riding the c-40 ,c-50 and the c-59 is still the same model from two years ago while the Dogma has iterated so many times my head spins.


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## Bosock (Apr 1, 2012)

If you are worried about where the bike is made get a TIME. I can also say that I have owned two S-Works bikes and not totally impressed when they went with the internal cabling. My S-Works SL3 Roubaix was noisey while the SL3 Tarmac with external cabling had no issues. Both S-works frames were performers though...Roubaix stiff, comfortable and stable handling...Tarmac is a speedster, stiff, responsive as a jet plane, and descends very well. I could not take the noise of the internal cabling Roubaix and replaced it for a TIME RX Instinct. The Time is a phenomenal riding bike...if you want a European built bike you should give them a look...they are French and not Italian...but from what I have read they have the best carbon building processes in the bike industry. If you are stuck on Dogma or C59...I would run with the Colnago...read about Ernesto and he is all class...bikes reflect his dedication. Have you looked at the Colnago M10...there is good press on that bike as well.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

^^ I think the Time bike would be a better carbon fiber bike to buy than one coming out of China with spotty quality control issues. 

Colnago on the other hand uses some Torayca CF tubing, though a Japanese company it's sourced out of China for their upper end models; but uses Giant who sources Guangdong China for their lower to mid level offerings, and the CLX line is sourced out of Tiawan. All of Colnago's CF frames are now outsourced to either China or Taiwan. This is also why there are counterfeit Colnagos sold over the internet or on mainland China and their other states because China likes to counterfeit everything.

A great American carbon fiber bike builder is Calfee, I would think they would do a spectacular job of making a reliable durable CF bike; as well as other US builders like Argonnaut, Crumpton, Davidson, Dean, IF, Parlee, Seven, and probably a slew of others that would be as good as the Time except made in the USA. The companies I listed have been doing CF bikes for a long time and you never hear of a failure.


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## sante pollastri (Dec 2, 2012)

froze said:


> ^^ I think the Time bike would be a better carbon fiber bike to buy than one coming out of China with spotty quality control issues.
> 
> Colnago on the other hand uses some Torayca CF tubing, though a Japanese company it's sourced out of China for their upper end models; but uses Giant who sources Guangdong China for their lower to mid level offerings, and the CLX line is sourced out of Tiawan. All of Colnago's CF frames are now outsourced to either China or Taiwan. This is also why there are counterfeit Colnagos sold over the internet or on mainland China and their other states because China likes to counterfeit everything.
> 
> A great American carbon fiber bike builder is Calfee, I would think they would do a spectacular job of making a reliable durable CF bike; as well as other US builders like Argonnaut, Crumpton, Davidson, Dean, IF, Parlee, Seven, and probably a slew of others that would be as good as the Time except made in the USA. The companies I listed have been doing CF bikes for a long time and you never hear of a failure.


the c59 is made in Italy.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

sante pollastri said:


> the c59 is made in Italy.


Of course, I did mistakenly say ALL, I meant all most all, it's also the top of the line at almost $6,000 just for the frameset. Trek's top of the line CF bikes are made in America too. Either bike is out of most peoples budgets, as are most CF bikes made in a country that has superior quality control vs those who do not.


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