# Stan's damage my aluminum rims?



## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

*Damage on my Shimano Dura-Ace C24 rims...manufacturing defect?*

Hi, I just removed my hutchinson Atom Tubeless tires on my Shimano Dura-ace C24 wheels and I'm very concerned. First, after only 3000km in this configuration, the Stan's was clogged everywhere, it took me a hour to remove this stuff on the rim and tire. 

I then realized that the anodized surface of the inside rims had small dark spot everywhere, after trying cleaning this, it was obvious it was oxidation. I never saw such a bad looking rim..is it the Stan or a defect from the anodized surface?

Will it become worse with time?...

Any experience? I'll post pics later.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

Here a couple of pics. I've never seen rim in such a bad shape. I run Stan's in my MTB SunRinglé Black Flag Pro and never had such a mess.

Since those wheels have less than a year, is it a warranty case?


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I have Ultegra 6700 wheels, different I know, but mine are black anodized on the inside of the rim. Yours look like bare aluminum. I clean mine out (the Stan's) each fall after using it in the summers. I do not have any oxidation I can tell. I agree with you in that there is tons of Stan's in every type of mountain bike rim w/o oxidation issues. It shouldn't be any different for road rims.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Shimano specifically states that any use of sealant voids the warranty. You are out of luck.


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## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

yeah I was just about to say, I don't think shimano makes a tubeless compatible road rim and using sealants voids warranties


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

This is weird, Shimano's making tubeless rims but void warranty if sealant is used...this sound like a tire company who void a warranty if the product is used on pavement...
Anyway, I'll take those to my lbs and ask him to take care of it...we will see.


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## mttklmrr1 (May 13, 2011)

Wondering if yellow rim tape over the rim would have prevented this. My stan's have yellow rim tape over it and there is no way for the sealant be in contact with the metal inside the rim.


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## DCE (Jul 14, 2010)

My WH-7850-C24-TL also corroded, but I did not use any sealant. I did however, use dish soap to seal the tubeless bead on the rim. It turns out that Dawn dish soap has ammonia in it and this caused my rims to corrode. It only took 30 days to corrode.

I sent them back to Shimano USA and after they determined that I had not used sealant, they covered them under warranty. In your case, that's going to be difficult.

I think your only option is to try to retard the damage by fine sanding and then treating with some kind of aluminum oxidize prohibitor.

Google aluminum oxidize prohibitor. Here is one I found:

Everbrite, Inc. [Reno, NV]

Good luck.


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## simonaway427 (Jul 12, 2010)

forge55b said:


> yeah I was just about to say, I don't think shimano makes a tubeless compatible road rim and using sealants voids warranties


Ultegra and DA rims are road tubeless ready. It says specifically in their owners manuals not to use "alkaline based puncture agents" as they will cause corrosion.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

Stan's is the only sealant available here unless special order. Those tire were installed by my LBS and since I'm not a chimist, how could I prevent this to happen.

Stan's state on there wedsite that the Ammonia cannot corrode aluminium rim, Shimano ask not to use "alkaline base product"...this is a very particular wheelset if even dish soap have the ability to affect the anodized finish.

IMO such a fragile finish is a design flaw and is not acceptable on such a expensive product.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

nightfend said:


> Shimano specifically states that any use of sealant voids the warranty. You are out of luck.


Well I don't see where you saw that, I just went trow all the Shimano paper instructions that came with the bike (those wheels were OEM on my Giant ADV TCR SL1) and there are no mention of sealant, alkaline product or anything of that nature. They even encourage to use soapy water to install tubeless tire.

I really think I haven't done nothing wrong according to the info I had and I wonder how can Shimano determine sealant was used...or which kind, everything is cleaned and there is no trace of sealant anywhere...just a crappy oxidized surface:mad2:


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

DCE said:


> My WH-7850-C24-TL also corroded, but I did not use any sealant. I did however, use dish soap to seal the tubeless bead on the rim. It turns out that Dawn dish soap has ammonia in it and this caused my rims to corrode. It only took 30 days to corrode.
> 
> I sent them back to Shimano USA and after they determined that I had not used sealant, they covered them under warranty. In your case, that's going to be difficult.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

I just recheck all the Shimano paperwork and saw the (small print) sentence where they say that alkaline based sealant was not recommended. But there is no mention that it would void the warranty and again for the average consumer...what the a alkaline based product is suppose to mean?


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## Mdrnizd (Oct 21, 2009)

What is the best solution to get the old Stans off the rim? It will take forever to sit and pick it all off.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

Mdrnizd said:


> What is the best solution to get the old Stans off the rim? It will take forever to sit and pick it all off.


I let the rims soak in warm(hot) soapy water(don't know if my dish liquid soap was armful for the delicate Shimano rims) for 20 minutes and then scrape the old Stan with a plastic tire lever, finish the job with a wet microfiber...nothing is left on the rims.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

I just checked the MSDS chart of Stan's sealant and the composition is:
.Propylene Glycol: 20-40%
.Natural latex: 15-30%
.Water: Balance

How should I know if this a alkaline product?


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

emartin said:


> I just checked the MSDS chart of Stan's sealant and the composition is:
> .Propylene Glycol: 20-40%
> .Natural latex: 15-30%
> .Water: Balance
> ...


You'd know if it was alkaline if they put the pH on the MSDS, which for some reason they say is "~Not Applicable". Liquid latex usually has base added to improve it's stability, making it alkaline.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

looigi said:


> You'd know if it was alkaline if they put the pH on the MSDS, which for some reason they say is "~Not Applicable". Liquid latex usually has base added to improve it's stability, making it alkaline.


There seem to be alot of "gray" zone in my situation.

Shimano suggest not using alkaline based sealant(in the small warning print) but there are no mention that it would void the warranty.

Stan's is the most widely available product and there is no mention that the product is alkaline or not.

For the average customer (with more than 20 years of competitive racing and as a cat.2 racer, I do not consider myself average) it is very confusing.

The fact is that Shimano anodizing process seem very thin and/or not as durable as comparable product.

I red in this thread owner who used Stan's on Shimano wheels without problems, others had problem without Stan's...a guy had problem using Dawn dish liquid soap! It's almost a joke.

Anyhow, I have good connection in the bike industry, I'll contact my LBS tomorrow and see where this will go...


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

Shimano must have changed their owners manual along the way about this. My Ultegra wheels will be 2 years old in June. I read my owners manual repeatedly looking for any info about using sealents and there is none. They don't even mention sealants. They do spell out some things that will void your warranty in bold type but no mention of sealants. The only reason I was looking for something was because I had read on threads like this where people had called Shimano ans asked the question and was told it would void the warranty. Back when I got my wheels nobody said they read it with info supplied with their wheels just something they called and asked about. It made me wonder why a person would call and ask because you know Shimano would say No. With all the different sealants out there, hundreds of "home brewed" concoctions, they would be crazy to say yes. To me this should be a warranty issue and I would pursue it as such. They make it very clear in the owners info what will void the warranty. They could have easily added the use of sealants to that list.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

In the documentation that came with the wheels, Shimano never mention that the use of sealant may void the warranty, in fact, it's only a CAUTION. Here's a copy of the only part of the "owner manual" with content regarding the use of sealant.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

emartin said:


> How should I know if this a alkaline product?


I used my nose - the stuff absolutely reeks of ammonia. One whiff and I decided never to use Stans with my Shimano rims (DA 7850SL). I have used Hutchinson FastAir without any corrosion though it was also a pain to clean off. I am currently using CafeLatex, though only for the last couple of months and I have not checked yet for any issue. The only reason I am using sealant is that one of my wheels simply does not hold air well without it (e.g. 40psi pressure loss during a long ride).

In your situation I would be upset too. If it is just a cosmetic issue then since it is on the inside of the rim I would just live with it. However, if it progressed to being a safety concern, then I'd be very upset.


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## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

Well it says it exactly, "We do not recommend that you use general-purpose alkaline puncture repair agents, as they may cause the rims to corrode and allow air leaks to occur."

While it doesn't say it will void your warranty if you do so, it does state that the use of it will cause corrosion so they could say that the "Caution" was there so the corrosion is not our fault, blah blah blah. 

Good luck with dealing with this. Hopefully this is a common issue that they take care of.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

Stan's clearly state that there product is Eco-Friendly: 
.Natural latex
.Non-Hazardous
.Non-Corrosive
.Non-Toxic
Really, I cannot see how I should know...


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

emartin said:


> Stan's clearly state that there product is Eco-Friendly:
> .Natural latex
> .Non-Hazardous
> .Non-Corrosive
> ...


I think that is a question for Stan's, not for Shimano. It absolutely reeks of ammonia, there is no doubt about that in my mind.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

ukbloke said:


> I think that is a question for Stan's, not for Shimano. It absolutely reeks of ammonia, there is no doubt about that in my mind.


Well, correct me if I'm wrong but ammonia is toxic, and a company like Stan's would not have the right to put that label on there bottle if there was any in it. Also, the MSDS sheet of Stan's do not list ammonia as a ingredient.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

emartin said:


> Well, correct me if I'm wrong but ammonia is toxic, and a company like Stan's would not have the right to put that label on there bottle if there was any in it. Also, the MSDS sheet of Stan's do not list ammonia as a ingredient.


Those would be great questions to ask Stan's - you can ask them here. It smells strongly of ammonia to me, and this is one of the most instantly recognizable smells there is. Perhaps they changed their formulation as it was 2 years ago that I bought some and decided to pass on it.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

I asked about this issue to Stan's and they reply:
" Sorry to hear about your problem. Unfortunately many companies have blamed their defects on our sealant."
So is it a case of: it's not me it's you...we will see how Shimano handle it. 

I was so curious that I remove a tire on my MTB with Stan's and the SunRinglé Black Flag Pro rim looked brand new.

Another thing that bother me is that if you look closely at the pics of my rims, you'll see that the center section is flawless, the oxidized area is where tire sit...my understanding is that Stan's flow in the rim so if the sealant was the cause of the problem, the center section would be the most oxidized surface...does that make sense?


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## castofone (Dec 24, 2010)

The sealant actually flows around the tire but when ever the wheel stops it will dribble over the rim. It may well sit in the gap between the tire bead and the rim floor if such a gap exists.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

I never knew about Stans corrosion problem until the owner of Plano bike shop told me about it. Seems to only affect road wheels since my mtb wheels never had a problem.

Im going to use Hutch's sealant in my new Campy 2way wheels


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

I did alot of research and found that Hutchinson sealant may also be alkaline...
I red somewhere that Shimano only suggest Cafe latex for there tubeless wheel(never heard of that product)...but I also red that cafe did not seal the tire properly on Shimano road wheels...Shimano is not clear about what and what not to be used! 

So:
. Shimano is selling TUBELESS wheels.
. The main TUBELESS road tire manufacturer is Hutchinson.
. I tried installing my Hutshinson tire dry but air was leaking...what should I did...I put sealant.
. The main sealant manufacturer is Stan's so that's what I used.
. Now my rims are all oxidized but I really don't feel I did something wrong.

This really look like a "no way out" case...


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Someone said that Cafe Latex doesn't do as good a job at puncture repair as Stans, and that seems plausible. It does take care off installation leaks and presumably will deal with some minor punctures on the road. I'm happily using Cafe Latex on Shimano road tubeless with Hutchinson tires. I also note that Zinn on Velonews recommends this setup. But if I didn't have an occasional installation leak to deal with, I'd likely not be using any sealant at all.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I am curious, emartin, if both of your tires leak w/o sealant or just one. If just one tire, could you rotate the tires? By doing so you would know if it was the tire or the wheel. Occasionaly this issue comes up and I wonder what the reason? My guess would be a tire defect. My tires work great w/ no sealant. They will loose pressure overnight similiar to a tube/clincher set up. I take it in your case they won't hold pressure at all (or not for long) w/o sealant. I think ukbloke in the post above may have an answer of using Cafe Latex to seal up your minor issues w/ some puncture resistance if Shimano won't fix the issue. I personally feel it is a Shimano issue (the corrosion part) though I doubt they will agree. I can't imagine road wheels are anodized any different than MTB rims.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Brazos said:


> I am curious, emartin, if both of your tires leak w/o sealant or just one. If just one tire, could you rotate the tires? By doing so you would know if it was the tire or the wheel. Occasionaly this issue comes up and I wonder what the reason? My guess would be a tire defect.


I was curious about this too. For me it was just one wheel (the front of a DA7850SL pair). I inflated it to about 120psi and used a water bath to local for bubbles and I saw none at all. My conclusion is that the air leak is in the rim between the pressurized part of the rim and the hollow interior part of the rim that is not pressurized. This was the best explanation I could think of as to why there were no air bubbles. The other would be that the leak is so very slow that air bubbles take a very long time to form, but I didn't think that was plausible.


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## vortechcoupe (Jun 6, 2006)

The reason the mtn rims don't corrode is because the sealant, for the most part, never touches the bare rim, duh!?!


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

Brazos said:


> I am curious, emartin, if both of your tires leak w/o sealant or just one. If just one tire, could you rotate the tires? By doing so you would know if it was the tire or the wheel. Occasionaly this issue comes up and I wonder what the reason? My guess would be a tire defect. My tires work great w/ no sealant. They will loose pressure overnight similiar to a tube/clincher set up. I take it in your case they won't hold pressure at all (or not for long) w/o sealant. I think ukbloke in the post above may have an answer of using Cafe Latex to seal up your minor issues w/ some puncture resistance if Shimano won't fix the issue. I personally feel it is a Shimano issue (the corrosion part) though I doubt they will agree. I can't imagine road wheels are anodized any different than MTB rims.


Dry, both tires were loosing about 40 PSI within about 2-3 hours...this was not acceptable for me, most of my road races are between 120-180km, I don't want to pass the finish line with 70PSI in my tires.
BTW, and this is my main point how should I knew in the fist place that Stan's was alkaline in the first place. If Shimano wanted me to exclusively used Cafe Latex, they should wrote it clearly!


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

I just called a local anodizing shop who's specialized in custom work and explain my problem and Shimano caution about alkaline product vs anodized finish. 

They were very surprised how my rims were attack with oxidation and that the anodizing did not prevent this to happen. 

They told me that a anodized finish, properly made may be cleaned with Windex, Dawn soap, almost anything on a regular basis without any problem and my problem is the result of a poor process.

They owner of the shop have alot of engine anodized part(on his car) subject to salt , heat, engine cleaner, oil...and it looked like new after 3 years...:thumbsup: for Shimano.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

40 psi in 2-3 hours is not right. You have an issue with your tire or wheels. I am starting to think the wheels. My Shimano wheels have not oxidized using Stan's. I agree with your anodizer.


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## davidezzy (Nov 15, 2008)

emartin said:


> I just went to a local anodizing shop who's specialized in custom work and explain my problem and Shimano caution about alkaline product vs anodized finish. I also show them one of my rim.
> 
> They were very surprised to see how my rims were attack with oxidation and that the anodizing did not prevent this to happen.
> 
> ...


Thank you for passing this on. Very interesting. Seems like Shimano has some issues to work out with their annodizing process. Hopefully they will agree to replace your rims.


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## Digitalfiend (Feb 6, 2012)

I bought a new bike last year and specifically wanted a tubeless wheelset, so picked up DA WH7900-TLs (not the CL version) and Hutchinson Atom tires. The shop filled my wheels with Stan's No Tube when they assembled the bike, even though I had mentioned reading about Stan's eating away at Shimano wheelsets. As I did more research I started finding posts regarding this issue but figured you can't believe everything you read on the net. Still, I ordered some Caffe Latex in prep for when I'd need to change to a fresh set of Atoms.

Well, I just pulled the tires off the wheels and immediately noticed a mild ammonia-like smell. After getting the tires off completely and starting to peel off the hardened Stan's latex (which did make it along the bead), I started to notice small black pitting and variously sized rough spots along the rim surface. I'm not too happy about this as these wheels weren't particularly cheap.

Thankfully, my damage doesn't appear as bad as the OPs. I bought the bike last July and only put about 4000km on it to November but didn't pull the tires off until today (so add another 3 months.) It's scary to think that Stan's can damage these particular wheels in just over 8 months. Is this a Stan's (too much ammonia) or Shimano issue (poorly anodized aluminum)? Not sure if I care, though I will stop buying Stan's - no way I'm giving up my nice wheels. 

I don't see there being anything structurally wrong with the wheels, but I am going to talk to my LBS about it. I distinctly recall mentioning to them about Stan's and the potential problems associated with using it on this wheelset.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

Digitalfiend said:


> I bought a new bike last year and specifically wanted a tubeless wheelset, so picked up DA WH7900-TLs (not the CL version) and Hutchinson Atom tires. The shop filled my wheels with Stan's No Tube when they assembled the bike, even though I had mentioned reading about Stan's eating away at Shimano wheelsets. As I did more research I started finding posts regarding this issue but figured you can't believe everything you read on the net. Still, I ordered some Caffe Latex in prep for when I'd need to change to a fresh set of Atoms.
> 
> Well, I just pulled the tires off the wheels and immediately noticed a mild ammonia-like smell. After getting the tires off completely and starting to peel off the hardened Stan's latex (which did make it along the bead), I started to notice small black pitting and variously sized rough spots along the rim surface. I'm not too happy about this as these wheels weren't particularly cheap.
> 
> ...


Your damage look very similar to mine...I'm mostly concern in long term durability. Since the surface started to oxidized and knowing that the inside of a rim is a "wet" area...it just can be worst with time. 
IMO, it's clearly Shimano's fault...but one thing is shure after all my researchs, this reaction is not normal for a properly made anodized finish!


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

Any word on Hutchinson PROTECT'AIR sealant? Hutchinson said they designed the Fusion 3 for Shimano wheels, then recommends their sealant for their tires. Is it possible the sealant wasn't designed for shimano rims? I mean if A=B and B=C, then isn't safe to assume A=C. (Yea I know ass u me).

I did notice the WH-6700's rims are black anodized on the inside and appears heavy duty.


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## cycocross (Dec 11, 2011)

I'd bet the etching process was done halfassed making the anodizing process equally halfassed. Don't think the strength of the wheel will be an issue but it looks like it's going to need *gasp* a tube, those pits are collectively one big hole.


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## emartin (Mar 11, 2009)

I searched all over the net and found alot of similar problems on Shimano Dura-Ace wheels. IMO, it simply a bad design and/or bad manufacturing...never heard or saw any problem with Stan's or any other sealant on any other brand.

I'm waiting on Shimano's response and will keep you inform for shure.


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## Bj0rn (Feb 10, 2012)

So, whatever happened with this? I've got a set of Ultegra 6700s with Stan's in them.



emartin said:


> Anyway, I'll take those to my lbs and ask him to take care of it...we will see.


Did your LBS get anywhere with Shimano?



emartin said:


> I'm waiting on Shimano's response and will keep you inform for shure.


Did Shimano ever respond? What did they say?


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## ddimick (Aug 9, 2011)

forge55b said:


> yeah I was just about to say, I don't think shimano makes a tubeless compatible road rim and using sealants voids warranties


Shimano does make wheels specifically for tubeless.

Further, I read this about Shimano's warranty all the time, but have yet to see it substantiated. I have read their warranty and their wheel instructions and nowhere does it say that using sealant voids the warranty. I've also seen claims that using tire levers voids the warranty, which also cannot be substantiated.


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## hanzo111 (Jun 9, 2011)

I called Shimano about this exact issue, I have the same wheel set and was told that ammonia based products are not recommended for their wheel sets. I was told I could use cafe` latex which they deemed the only safe product for their rims. 

I did use the cafe` latex and made a video of it leaking out of my side walls.
WH-7850-C24-TL Hutchinson fusion 3 road tubeless - YouTube

The cafe` latex works well and is easy to use, I use their syringe kits to insert the liquid.

Hanzo


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## Trower (Apr 28, 2009)

emartin said:


> I just called a local anodizing shop who's specialized in custom work and explain my problem and Shimano caution about alkaline product vs anodized finish.
> 
> They were very surprised how my rims were attack with oxidation and that the anodizing did not prevent this to happen.
> 
> ...


There are MANY different processes for anodizing, I mean alot! And depending on the type of aluminum used your process choices very and the characteristics of the metal and finish can change. Ammonia is very hard on alot of things and can blemish normal anodized finishes, and in some cases like with these rims, eat right through it. I'm sure that the process Shimano uses is one that is A. Lightweight B. Strong/Doesn't reduce the strength/hardness of the metal. I find this to be a fault of Stans, even though its considered "eco friendly" and "non Toxic" they probably have the amount just barley below the limits to be considered as such. 

As far as keeping the oxidization contained, you will need to use some type of an abrasive brush (Anderson Low Density, Long Trim Brushes work awesome, very conforming and not super abrasive so it wont wreck the rims), then either paint the inside, or use a polishing/surface protectant and use it every time to clean your rims.


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

I've unfortunately been bitten by this problem as well! I've gotten a bit of oxidation, but fortunately nothing structural. What kills be about this is that I've got a 6700 rear wheel that I used extensively with Stan's and is in perfect condition. Isn't DA supposed to be better than Ultegra? Why is the Ultegra's finish better?

At this point, I highly doubt there is any use trying to make any warranty claims and am therefore resigned to handling it myself. I'm open to suggestions, but basically I'm thinking of sanding off what corrosion I can, wiping the inner surface out with alcohol or something to remove and oil and residue, and then spray painting the inside. I'm thinking of black with a gloss finish so when inflating the tire can slide as easily as possible from the well out to the lip. What do you reckon?

Oh also, I've already picked up some Caffelatex and will be using that exclusively from here forward.


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## CABGPatchKid (Dec 5, 2011)

Yamabushi,

I had a similar issue with my 7850 SLs., and I was using Caffélatex. 

This is the Caution in the Shimano documentation. There is a copy of this documentation that has been posted earlier in this thread.
"We do not recommend that you use general-purpose alkaline puncture repair agents,
as they may cause the rims to corrode and allow air leaks to occur."

I would suggest that you contact Shimano Warranty, if you have not used anything alkaline, (and I have no idea if Stan’s is, or is not, Stan's says it is not alkaline), you may have a valid claim.

When I contacted Shimano they said the only sealant they recommend is Hutchinson, so you may what to re-think using Caffélatex.


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

CABGPatchKid said:


> Yamabushi,
> 
> I had a similar issue with my 7850 SLs., and I was using Caffélatex.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice. That being said, I'm pretty confident that I don't have a valid warranty claim. I've resigned myself to light sanding, cleaning, and spray painting the inner surface with some aluminum specific paint. I picked up the needed supplies today and will start working on it shortly. I'd like to get this done this evening as I really want to do a short ride tomorrow morning. Anyhow... once I'm done, I'll let everyone know how it went in case anyone is considering giving it try. Wish me luck!


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

So I sanded, cleaned, and sprayed on the first of what I hope will be two coats of aluminum protective paint. I used black so I could clearly tell that I successfully covered everything. Once the first coat dries, I'll go at it once more. So far so good!


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

MisterAngular said:


> This is very clearly the result of a HUGE oversight and/or screw up on the part of Shimano. I'm not sure the interior of the rims had any coating at all. Very annoying and a major blight on an otherwise stellar wheelset.


Agreed!!

To follow-up on my wheel rehab, I finished the 2nd coat and I have to say it looks pretty damn good. I've already remounted them with Caffelatex sealant. I guess the real test will be next time a remove a wheel and take a look inside. I'll try to update this thread at that point. The saga continues!


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## MisterAngular (Feb 6, 2007)

I'm convinced Shimano really screwed the pooch on this one. I've owned 7801-SL, 7850-SL and 7850-C24-TL wheelsets. After maybe 6 months of use, I discovered my 7850-C24-TL wheels were in exactly the same condition as the OPs and they'd never seen ANY kind of sealant at all. (The rear rim was far worse than the front, for whatever reason.) 

This is very clearly the result of a HUGE oversight and/or screw up on the part of Shimano. I'm not sure the interior of the rims had any coating at all. Very annoying and a major blight on an otherwise stellar wheelset.


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## millerasm (Mar 28, 2012)

keep us updated. really interested on this on


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## frankq (Jul 25, 2010)

I have Shimano 7850-C24-TL and also have problems. Long time user of Stan's(since around y2k)never had a problem, except for 1 time that I converted a MTB DH tire to tubeless and it blew off while riding, that was exciting). But the inside of my rims look far worse than any of the pictures shown huge rust spots, powder substance when dry but they always held air, called shimano and got the you shouldn't(the instructions say we recommend you do not use not you SHOULD NOT use) use Stans and we won't warranty robot script from one of their call center tools, well FU shimano. What I did was buy some stans rim tape cleaned out the inside of the rims as good as possible and put the tape on 6 months and no air loss. I do wonder if they will just crumble one day but oh well. If I can remember my front wheel has not been taped yet and when I do change the front tire I'll take some pictures and post and show how bad these things look, it's really breathtaking how shitty the insides of these rims corrode.


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## MisterAngular (Feb 6, 2007)

Yamabushi said:


> To follow-up on my wheel rehab, I finished the 2nd coat and I have to say it looks pretty damn good. I've already remounted them with Caffelatex sealant. I guess the real test will be next time a remove a wheel and take a look inside. I'll try to update this thread at that point. The saga continues!


What kind of paint/coating are you using? Keep us updated & post pictures when you're done.

On mine I just scoured the inside of the rim with a scotchbrite pad to remove the powdery oxidation and threw it back together. The oxidation was so bad that the tire started going flat because of the tire/rim seal failing. And this was on a rim that NEVER saw sealant! 

After that, I said screw it... I'm using the sealant! Hutchinson at first, now the Stan's. The stuff just plain works and I'm not convinced it's all that corrosive to the rim. Virtually no evidence/data to say it is the culprit.


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## CABGPatchKid (Dec 5, 2011)

MisterAngular said:


> This is very clearly the result of a HUGE oversight and/or screw up on the part of Shimano. I'm not sure the interior of the rims had any coating at all. Very annoying and a major blight on an otherwise stellar wheelset.


Yes, I absolutely agree.
I had 7850 SLs, and after 7 months with CaffeLatex I had the same scenario. 
CaffeLatex said that what I experienced was not corrosion but oxidation.
This may explain MisterAngular’s issue since he never used sealant. 

Now I have 7900 C24 TLs. 4 weeks with CaffeLatex, and I used the mildest soap I could find when installing the tires. This past weekend I took the tires off to see what was happening. 
I had what looked like the beginning of corrosion or oxidation. I tried cleaning the rims with a stiff bristle nylon brush, but no luck. I then used a metal brush and that worked, but not sure if that will cause issues.

I ordered Hutchinson Protect'Air Max, when I talked to Shimano I was told this was the sealant they recommended.

I have also ordered Boeshield T-9 Liquid (not the chain lube). This is supposed to be Rust & Corrosion Protection.

On both the 7850 SLs and the 7900 C24 TLs the rear wheel was much worse, and that seems to be the case for others also.

The saga continues.


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## CABGPatchKid (Dec 5, 2011)

*Finally 100% satisfied with tubeless*

I realize this is an old thread, but here is an update
My recent tubeless experience has been excellent
After cleaning my rims I installed a set of Fusion 3 clinchers with a Performance Ultra Light tube to compare the same tire in a tubed version vs. a tubeless version, and I wanted to make sure that if I had to resort back to tubes I could still use the rims with tubes.

I rode with this setup for 2 weeks or about 250 miles. Although OK, the tubeless is just better, but I think we all know that. 

Therefore, I went back to using tubeless.
I did use the Boeshield T-9 and I do believe it works as a sealant for aluminum. I have since used both Hutchinson Protect'Air Max and CaffeLatex, and I have not had any further corrosions issues. Since T-9 is a lubricant I am not recommending that others use it as it may deteriorate the tire, but all I can say is that I am no longer seeing any additional deterioration of the rims, and I have had no issues with the tire bead, so I do believe it worked for me. I will add that I did purchase some mild hand soap and the brand I purchased did not list ammonia as an ingredient. I am no longer using dish soap to lubricate the tire when installing on the rim and maybe this has also helped.

RE Fusion 3 tubeless tires. I recently order three new Fusion 3 tubeless tire and they appear to be much better that my original two. I do see them advertised as 2012 models on web sites, but I did not find anything stating as such on the Hutchinson site. They seemed to go on much easier, and they seated with a floor pump without any issues. A few quick pumps, they started to seat, then pop pop pop and done. In addition, I took one off and it was very easy to reinstall by hand so I feel that with the new tires any roadside repair would be just as easy as a regular clincher.

One thing I have noticed about the Fusion 3 tubeless tires (my original two, not sure about the new ones) is when you take them on and off for maintenance, the line just above the rim starts to develop leaks. On tires that would hold air without sealant when new, after removing and reinstalling the tires several times they developed leakage in this area. I have been able to get the tires to seal with sealant but not good for those who do not want to use sealant. 

My main concern with tubeless was the deterioration of the rim and now that appears to be behind me I am 100% satisfied


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## gsxrawd (Apr 7, 2004)

thanks for the update. I just can't believe Stans would attack the anodising on an aluminum rim.


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## scarf (Oct 11, 2012)

My first post.
I too am using Dura Ace wheels, C24's with Hutchinsons tires and Stans. They have been mounted for one year and all seemed well. The bike has been idle for 6 months (away on travel) and not surprising, the tires went flat. I unmounted the tires and intended to clean out the old Stans and put in some new when I discovered that both wheel were badly corroded; the rear worst.
The corrosion has breached the wall of the rear wheel in one spot. The hole is approximately 1mm in diameter. This wheel still had some liquid inside when I removed the tire. The front wheel did not have any liquid left and has much less corrosion. The bike was left unmoved for approximately 6 months (Apr-Sep), in a garage, where temperatures could have easily gotten to 110F. The wheels were brand new when the Stan's Tire Sealant was added as part of a tubeless setup.
I've attached some images of the corrosion which looks much worse then the images posted on this site.
Is there any new information on this problem? What about an update on some of the fixes mentioned in earlier posts. My main concern is the integrity of the wheel, is it strong enough still?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

That sucks - do you think the holes are clustered around the bottom of the wheel where the liquid would have pooled while the bike was at rest for those 6 months? I've just gone out into the garage and rotated my DA 7850 rear wheel which isn't being ridden right now (though it has Cafe Latex not Stans).

As long as the Al isn't failing in many clustered spots like that my non-professional opinion is that the wheel is OK to ride, but it's not going to be airtight any more. Mor cautious advice would be to get it checked out by your LBS.


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## scarf (Oct 11, 2012)

Not sure about the hole locations w/res to how the wheel was positioned for the 6 months; just didn't pay attention when I brought it out. I'm thinking that I'll try some form of corrosion treatment, perhaps just a metal prep for aluminum and then I'll fill them up again with Stans and let it seal the hole. I'm more surprised than disappointed that this should be a problem with these wheels. Definitely will look other places for hoops when I replace them.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

scarf said:


> then I'll fill them up again with Stans


Why would you use Stans again? Why not Cafe Latex or Hutchinson's sealant? I bought Stans but threw it away without using it because of the ammonia smell.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

ukbloke said:


> Why would you use Stans again? Why not Cafe Latex or Hutchinson's sealant? I bought Stans but threw it away without using it because of the ammonia smell.


All the bottles of Stan's sealant I used don't reak of ammonia (there is supposed to be trace amounts used).... works fine in my MTB tubeless (Stan's rim also).


The Shimano wheels are made for Mavic's UST specifications, which was originally intended for not needing sealant.

However, good luck finding a UST-specific road tubeless. Not too many available... except say Schwalbe Ultremo ZX TL..... and they recommend sealant, which their Doc Blue is Stan's sealant with a $1 premium per 2 oz bottles


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

tednugent said:


> All the bottles of Stan's sealant I used don't reak of ammonia
> 
> However, good luck finding a UST-specific road tubeless.


I'm glad to hear that Stan's has significantly reduced the amount of ammonia in their formula. My experiences were 2-3 years ago.

UST was invented for mountain bikes. The equivalent for road is "Road Tubeless", and you have to use a "Road Tubeless" tire because the pressures for road tires vastly exceed those for mountain biking. Hutchinson makes 3-4 different models, and there are a couple of other vendors.

I prefer to run mine without sealant. However, sometimes a particular tire will not seal or a wheel will not be completely airtight. In those cases I've used Hutchinson or Cafe Latex to get a seal. I am still wary of these reports of corrosion though. Shimano does not recommend use of sealant, but that's no help when you are stuck with a road tubeless wheel and tire that will not hold air!


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

ukbloke said:


> I'm glad to hear that Stan's has significantly reduced the amount of ammonia in their formula. My experiences were 2-3 years ago.
> 
> UST was invented for mountain bikes. The equivalent for road is "Road Tubeless", and you have to use a "Road Tubeless" tire because the pressures for road tires vastly exceed those for mountain biking. Hutchinson makes 3-4 different models, and there are a couple of other vendors.
> 
> I prefer to run mine without sealant. However, sometimes a particular tire will not seal or a wheel will not be completely airtight. In those cases I've used Hutchinson or Cafe Latex to get a seal. I am still wary of these reports of corrosion though. Shimano does not recommend use of sealant, but that's no help when you are stuck with a road tubeless wheel and tire that will not hold air!


UST was invented by Mavic for tubeless in general, yes, for the MTB market AND not requiring the use of sealant (due to a specific hump profile and bead profile)

the other big tubeless is by Stan's, which basically involves lowering the bead hook height to create the tigter seal --- which Stan's is designed to use sealant.

With MTB tubeless tires, some tire manufacturers sell a tubeless ready (an additional layer of butyl rubber on the bead, to take up the slack that would have been created by a rim strip) version of a tire and a UST-specific version of the tire.... so UST and tubeless ready do not have the same bead design.

Shimano made their rim profile for UST.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Road Tubeless tires, such as from Hutchinson, are designed with a bead lock to Road Tubeless rims so that use of sealant is optional.


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## scarf (Oct 11, 2012)

Actually I'm not sure if I'd use Stan's again in the Dura Ace wheels. I have been using Stans for several years in my two MTB's with no problems, although these wheels have an obvious anodized finish on the inner wheel surface. I plan to take your advice and talk to my pros at Red Rock Bicycle Co and get their input.


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## CABGPatchKid (Dec 5, 2011)

scarf,

Bummer, sorry to hear of your issue.

The black areas look exactly the same as my wheels did. I caught mine before I had any damage such as the hole in your rear wheel. This occurred with Caffélatex.
I cleaned the rim, using a very fine metal brush, which I do NOT recommend using. I would suggest using something like a nylon scrubbbie (technical term). I did learn the T-9 helped with cleaning this back residue off the rim. I do have in a few areas some very fine 'etchings' where the more severe black areas were. Nothing to the extent of the hole you have.

I then coated the inside of the rim with Boeshield T-9, so far so good (knock on wood, which is the sound of hitting my head). I am still using Caffélatex with no further issues with corrosion. This worked for me, not necessarily advising this, just the approach I took.

Let us know what if your bike shop thinks you can still ride the rim. And good luck!


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

would wrapping a quick layer of Stan's nylon tape help?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

ukbloke said:


> Road Tubeless tires, such as from Hutchinson, are designed with a bead lock to Road Tubeless rims so that use of sealant is optional.


I still feel sketchy about running tubeless without sealant. Even on a bead locking tire, it is still super helpful for punctures and whatnot.


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## yeelep (May 14, 2010)

Has anybody considered that the rims are not anodized. If you look at the specs. for the 7900-C24's they list no finish on the rims.


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

emartin said:


> Stan's clearly state that there product is Eco-Friendly:
> .Natural latex
> .Non-Hazardous
> .Non-Corrosive
> ...


All you have to do is smell it. Then you know.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I'd like to see Stan take a swig from that bottle!


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

ukbloke said:


> I'd like to see Stan take a swig from that bottle!


Their "MSDS" is insulting.


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

yeelep said:


> Has anybody considered that the rims are not anodized. If you look at the specs. for the 7900-C24's they list no finish on the rims.


Yes there is a problem with this specific wheel and any sealant. The finish is bad and happens to people who don't even use stans. I would protect it with some Eezox then run some stans tape before using any water/soap/ during installation or sealant.


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## YannisG (Jan 6, 2013)

Emartin Hi,
I have been using DuraAce C24 rims for 2 yrs with Stan's sealant. No flats, but just a tear from a metal object. 
Recently, I removed the Hutchinson fusion 3 tires, and thoroughly cleaned the rims. They look just like yrs in the photo.
I have been following the discussion regarding ammonia corrosion etc. However, looking at yr photos and my rims I see that there is almost no corrosion in the centre groove, but mostly where the tire comes in contact with the rim. I would assume that the sealant wets all of the rim's inner surface. Why is the centre groove almost free of corrosion? I am not sure if the sealant is doing all the damage or imperfect anodizing is also to blame.
This corrosion does not affect the wheel's performance, but might affect the sealing of the tire to the rim if it gets much worst. Nevertheless, who wants to see this corrosion on his expensive rims.
YannisG


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Maybe the sealant just tends to accummulate in those areas rather than the inside of the rim? e.g. due to wheel rotation, and when making the airtight seal between the rim and the tire. Also when the bike is not in use any liquid sealant is going to pool up at the bottom of the tire, possibly just getting the sides of the rim wet but not the inside of the rim. With hindsight this does seem like there is blame both on Shimano and Stan's for this to occur. This thread also reminds me to take my tires off and do an annual inspect, clean-up and replacement of the sealant. Maybe I will try some Hutchinson's sealant that their rep gave to me.


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## YannisG (Jan 6, 2013)

ukbloke Hi,
Thanks for the response. I understand what you are saying, and most of the gummy residue is on the sides, but their is a fair amount on the centre. Also scraping the residue off might affect the anodized surface. Since this corrosion does not affect the wheel's performance I'm not going to worry about who to blame. 
I'm satisfied with Stan's performance because after using it for 2 yrs I haven't had a flat. I have never used Hutchinson sealant, but I know Hutchinson will not honour the warranty on their tires unless you use their sealant. I haven't seen any tire deterioration after using Stan's either. 
YannisG


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## L-Dogg (May 24, 2005)

Have folks found that the boeshield is working? I just got a pair of Dura-Ace WH-9000-C24-TL and was going to start using stans without a second thought until reading this. Any insight into best practiced would be appreciated.

Thanks,
L-Dogg


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## YannisG (Jan 6, 2013)

Hi L-Dogg,
Apart from the pitting corrosion I am satisfied with Stan's. I have been using the Dura-Ace tubeless rims with Hutchinson fusion 3 tires sealed with Stan's for 2 yrs, and had no flats. This tires have 5000 klm each, and are not particularly worn: I don't use them on training rides.The corrosion is just a visual defect that you see only when you thoroughly clean the rim. I had a defect with one of the Dura-Ace rims (nothing to do with the sealant) and Shimano replaced it with a new wheel. I was thinking of using the Caffe Latex sealant on this new rim to evaluate the corrosion affect from different sealants. Finally, I decided that I do not want to deal with different sealants, and I have read some reviews that CF does not seal as well as Stan's. Since my personal experience is that Stan's seals well, for the time being I am sticking with it.
As for my personal road tubeless tire/rim evaluation goes there are some great advantages (no flats, smoother ride), but also many hassles too (cleaning the tires and rims from the gummy residue, sealing the tire on the rim once you broken the seal, topping up the sealant, the poor choice of tires, their cost, and the need of a compressor or proximity to a gas station).
This is my personal evaluation. Would I recommend going this way? No because an occasional flat is easier to deal with.
YannisG


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## CABGPatchKid (Dec 5, 2011)

L-Dogg said:


> Have folks found that the boeshield is working? I just got a pair of Dura-Ace WH-9000-C24-TL and was going to start using stans without a second thought until reading this. Any insight into best practiced would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> L-Dogg


L-Dogg,

At first it appeared that the boeshield was working. Unfortunately I now have pitting and a tiny hole exactly like the one shown in an earlier post.
I use CaffeLatex so this is not just a Stan's issue.


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## L-Dogg (May 24, 2005)

Great, thanks for following up. Man, I really wish there wasnt an issue with this, would certainly make me happier with my wheelset.


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

I would run a layer of stans tape to protect the rims. Will only add a couple grams of weight but keep the rim bed covered. It sucks that Shimano overlooked this in their development. Otherwise they are a great wheelset.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

CaffeLatex doesn't use natural rubber so it's product doesn't contain amonia.
Stans uses natural rubber so its product must contain amonia (since amonia is needed to make the rubber freely flowing in the milk).

However, natural rubber in Stans seal a lot better than Caffelatex. Read a lot of stories of Caffe not sealing. A sealant is useless if it doesn't seal right away.

I use Stans on my Dura Ace C24 also see some of the symptoms that people here have described (ie. pitting, and corrosion?). However, it is only limited to 1 little spot on both the front and rear wheel in my 1.5 year of usage. So at this point, I will continue to use Stans. When the day comes that I dont' want to deal with Stans, then I will just use a tube. I probably will not use CaffeLatex (or any sealant that does not contain natural rubber threads in them) because they do not seal very well (might as well use a tube, right).


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

I've used both Stan's and Caffe Latex quite a bit... I prefer Caffe Latex. IME, it seals just as well if not better than Stan's and is easier to work with as you can inject through a normal valve.


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## mtor (Mar 1, 2007)

emartin said:


> Here a couple of pics. I've never seen rim in such a bad shape. I run Stan's in my MTB SunRinglé Black Flag Pro and never had such a mess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW that sucks


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## IrrelevantD (Apr 12, 2013)

So on the topic of what sealants work best and various options... 

I switched to a set of 6700s about a year ago from a converted set of Open Pros. I historically ran Stan's in the Open Pros. Upon switching back to tubes due to a number of rim strips failing at the base of the valve stem, I found that there was enough pitting that I was constantly puncturing tubes on the inside. 

When I found this thread and made the switch to the Shimano rims, I switched to Caffelatex as I did not want to risk damaging the new rims. I closely examined the anodization on the inside of the rims, and did notice that some areas were not as well covered. I have not had the tires off to check yet for corrosion, but I have had several punctures running both the Open Pros with Stans and the Shimanos with Caffe.

I have always found that while Caffee will seal eventually, Stan's seals better and quicker. I have watched Caffee spray and bubble for 5-10 minutes before sealing; whereas with Stan's I rarely knew I had a puncture until after the ride was over and I was off the bike.

Stan's has a gritty material that settles to the bottom of the bottle/cup and I'm assuming this is to plug the leak quick and then let the latex harden around it. I believe Slime has a sealant that similarly has tiny chunks/beads of rubber to accomplish the same task. I've been kicking around the idea of using a file or grater to get some rubber shavings from old tires and adding those prior to mounting and adding Caffe. I've also heard of people using glitter. 

Might be worth a try to see if we can't get something that seals better like Stan's, but would have the "less corrosive" peace of mind.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

IrrelevantD said:


> So on the topic of what sealants work best and various options...
> 
> I switched to a set of 6700s about a year ago from a converted set of Open Pros. I historically ran Stan's in the Open Pros. Upon switching back to tubes due to a number of rim strips failing at the base of the valve stem, I found that there was enough pitting that I was constantly puncturing tubes on the inside.
> 
> ...


Part of the fun when Stan's dries out inside, is the "coral" that you need to remove.

many people in MTBR do a "homebrew" version of Stan's

Best Tubeless Brew?


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## sovereign (May 27, 2010)

Curious as to Shimano's latest position on the use of sealants in their road tubeless wheels, I just gave them a call. The rep stated that no sealant is recommended as safe to use, and the use of ANY sealant will void the warranty.


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## cage. (Sep 10, 2013)

I just took a look at the Shimano web site & in the Technical Document 
_SI-4FP0A-001 _for the Ultegra WH-6700, under the heading 'NOTICE', it states..

_'We do not recommend that you use general-purpose alkaline puncture repair agents, as they may cause the rims to corrode and allow air leaks to occur.' 

_Now despite what a rep. may say, this would lead me to think that a non alkaline agent would be ok.
Also, who wants to define what the term 'general-purpose' means? I'd consider SLIM to be general purpose as its used on cars, motorcycles & bicycles.... but STANS... i think not, but thats just me.


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## blantonator (Apr 25, 2007)

Here's one of my shimano rims after about 2 years of stans. The corrosion is pretty bad, and material is missing. I guess I'll be running tubes from now on with these rims, the brake tracks probably have less than a year on them anyways, but is pretty disappointing. I really liked tubeless.


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