# Interested In High-grade Steel Luuged Bike? Which Level



## bikesdirect

We get lots of requests these days for high grade steel bikes

I know what is desired in an entry road in high grade steel [which is a price from $300 to $400 with full double butted 4130 and basic components and setup for sport or commute]

Seems in CX the requests are more in line with middle area; $500 or $600 in full DB 4130 and nice middle level parts with good wheels.

But we have started to get lots of requests for Reynolds or Columbus Lugged race bikes [like what I would call 'club racer'] with all types of different components.

If you wanted a high-grade steel lugged bike like this; what level? spec? price? would be most interesting to you? Double? Triple? Compact? With eyelets? Carbon fork or totalling traditional with tapered 4130 type fork?

And why would you like one; if you would
and at what price would you feel it was too good of a deal to pass up

A few brands like Raleigh and Jamis and Surly seem to be moving this way - any catch your attention as a super good deal and/or spec?


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## bane

most companies pay big money to do market research like this


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## buck-50

bane said:


> most companies pay big money to do market research like this


No they don't. Trust me.

At least he's asking.


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## skyliner1004

i would never buy a steel bike period, but if you're trying to target racers go with a double with a low-range cassette like 11-23 or so. Carbon forks are pretty standard these days even on steel bikes so i'd go with that. A steel fork would seem too "cheap."

price point? Like i said i would never buy a steel bike because they're too flexy, just not my style of riding, and they look like crap. But depending on the components i'd pay less than an identically equipped aluminum bike.


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## buck-50

You'd have to do something truly unique to get my attention.

I love steel frames. I have 5 of them. 

But, what can you do that's different? If I need cheep steel, there's Surly. Lugs won't make a pacer a better bike. Slightly better steel? Soma. Really nice steel, still reasonably priced? Gunnar.

If you painted them all black, I'd bet 90% of people couldn't tell any of them apart. 

Road frame with clearance for fenders, cross/utility frame, MTB frame. All steel, all pretty close in appearance and function.

So do something different out of steel. Make a 29er frame that's built like an old Ivar Truss frame. Bring back your grass-track racer frame, but do it right, look at what old grass trackers really looked like. Make a commuter frame that's designed around fat franks and drop bars. Make an old-school MTB, like an 84 stumpjumper.

Otherwise you are just going to get lost in the crowd, and all you'll have to sell your bike on is price. And while you've got excellent prices, that doesn't seem to be the point of this exercise, does it?


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## bwhite_4

skyliner1004 said:


> Like i said i would never buy a steel bike because they're too flexy, just not my style of riding, and they look like crap. But depending on the components i'd pay less than an identically equipped aluminum bike.


you've ridden the wrong steel frames then. 

Granted - at a bikes direct price range, you might get something slightly "forgiving" in the ride, but there are plenty of steel frames out there that will aren't flexy. Looking like crap is subjective though.


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## JustTooBig

skyliner1004 said:


> ......
> price point? Like i said i would never buy a steel bike because they're too flexy, just not my style of riding ....


and this is based on ..... your extensive experience with steel bikes? Yeah, I didn't think so. Your statement reflects your willingness to follow the herd -- and accept the generalities of that collective -- and accept "well, THEY say steel bikes do this...".

This isn't coming from a steel bike lover -- only one of my bikes is steel. But I know better than to assume a frame is going to have some set of characteristics based solely on the material it's made of. Anyone who bothers to educate themselves even a little bit knows that frame material is one of MANY factors that determine the performance and handling of a bike.


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## Hank Stamper

If I wanted a steel "race bike" it would be because I couldn't afford or didn't want to risk in a race a carbon frame, or as a back up rain bike. I'd go with aluminum here but for argument sake say I wanted steel.

Because my reason for chooseing steel is the higher price of carbon.......I wouldn't want to spend too much on steel. Maybe a grand total with 105 level stuff would be max. Because we're talking race bikes I'd actually prefter to buy it with no wheels but if you're selling it with wheels I'd either want something decent or something so crappy that it wouldn't add much to the price and I'd replace with my own race wheels.

If it was a commuter, touring, recreation......different story. I have no use for such a bike at the time being but in the event I did I'd be willing to pay as much, or more, for a steel version of such a bike as compared to to other options. But for racing, steel would be as a back up or compromise so I'd want to keep it cheap, because that would be the only reason I'd have to race steel.

yeah, carbon fork.

I know I may have taken your customers requests for 'race bike' too literally and perhaps they aren't actually looking to race. If that's the case....I guess I don't have any opinion. Not sure if they're looking at group rides, commuting, ride around the block or what. Perhaps they just think it is hipster old school cool to go steel and they aren't sure themself.


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## Dave Hickey

skyliner1004 said:


> i would never buy a steel bike period, but if you're trying to target racers go with a double with a low-range cassette like 11-23 or so. Carbon forks are pretty standard these days even on steel bikes so i'd go with that. A steel fork would seem too "cheap."
> 
> price point? Like i said i would never buy a steel bike because they're too flexy, just not my style of riding, and they look like crap. But depending on the components i'd pay less than an identically equipped aluminum bike.


Ride one of my steel 3Rensho track bikes and tell me they are flexy......It's not about material...it's about design


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## JustTooBig

Dave Hickey said:


> Ride one of my steel 3Rensho track bikes and tell me they are flexy......It's not about material...it's about design


speaking of which .... are you going to have one of those beee-u-tiful 3Renshos at the Booty ride? I'll be on a fixie too, but unfortunately it'll be an ugly but brutal aluminum Masi track frame. I'll be jealous ....


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## Dave Hickey

bikesdirect said:


> We get lots of requests these days for high grade steel bikes
> 
> I know what is desired in an entry road in high grade steel [which is a price from $300 to $400 with full double butted 4130 and basic components and setup for sport or commute]
> 
> Seems in CX the requests are more in line with middle area; $500 or $600 in full DB 4130 and nice middle level parts with good wheels.
> 
> But we have started to get lots of requests for Reynolds or Columbus Lugged race bikes [like what I would call 'club racer'] with all types of different components.
> 
> If you wanted a high-grade steel lugged bike like this; what level? spec? price? would be most interesting to you? Double? Triple? Compact? With eyelets? Carbon fork or totalling traditional with tapered 4130 type fork?
> 
> And why would you like one; if you would
> and at what price would you feel it was too good of a deal to pass up
> 
> A few brands like Raleigh and Jamis and Surly seem to be moving this way - any catch your attention as a super good deal and/or spec?


A couple of general comments

A lot of the fixie crowd has moved into classic steel road bikes..- The same ones that demanded NJS track bikes are now collecting high end 80's steel with Record ,Superbe, or Dura Ace.

You've been successful in capturing a good share of the fixie market with your offerings( primarily the Kilo for the above crowd). They buy a Kilo and gradually upgrade parts like the crank to Sugino 75, Nitto Pearl stem and bars, etc......Some buyers wanted an authentic NJS track frame but couldn't afford it. They bought a Kilo and upgraded to NJS parts..win-win...

I think you can do the same thing with a lugged steel road bike.... Spec is so it's not too expensive and let the buyer add higher end components if they choose.


As for my personal wants- 

1. I'd love a lugged steel frame that accepts wide tires, upright position, brazeons for racks, fenders, etc...
2. A race inspired lugged frame- tight wheel base, relatively light, and a price that wouldn't break the bank- components aren't important to me as I would likely change over most..
3. Regardless of the frame design, a quill stem and steel fork( only if lugged fork). If you must go carbon, paint to match the frame


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## T-Doc

personally I think club riders are moving to steel because they finally realize the get a great ride at a fraction of the price. It rides great and, as others have already stated, they can be designed to be just as stiff as other materials. I have custom Hans Schneider, with a steel fork, because Hans builds forks that are as light as carbon, but gut tells me most riders want the "look" of carbon fork. I would definitely get some frames set up with fender eyelits. I would also offer a triple as an option. You can offer higher end gruppos but bottom tier gruppos like 105 are going to be sufficient. My guess is a price point somewhere between $500 - 800. My .02


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## Dave Hickey

JustTooBig said:


> speaking of which .... are you going to have one of those beee-u-tiful 3Renshos at the Booty ride? I'll be on a fixie too, but unfortunately it'll be an ugly but brutal aluminum Masi track frame. I'll be jealous ....



It depends....I'm bringing two bikes..... 

If one of the booty riders wins the Collin Merckx, I'm going to hand deliver the bike

If someone else wins the Collin Merckx, I'm bringing a 3Rensho and my custom single speed/fixie

My custom is going to be my primary Booty bike....


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## rufus

I'm a retro-grouch, so my views are probably far different than those of the masses. That said, I was at a local time trail over the weekend, and somehow, I've got a carbon fiber itch in the back of my head. Must purge impure thoughts!!!!

My feelings are you can't get too expensive. No one's gonna buy a lugged steel frame from a mass marketer when they could get a custom built for the same money, or less. 

I like lugged steel on road bikes. TIG'd steel for me means mountain bikes. Although I've also entertained the idea of replacing my old Specialized Sirrus winter beater with something like a Surly, so I'm not totally against it. 

Steel frame needs a steel fork. 'Nuff said. No unicrowns, please. 

I've also become a Campy devotee, so that means Centaur at least. And no carbon bits if it can be helped. 105 and Ultegra should do, though. 

No sloping top tubes. It should look like a classic road bike.


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## cmg

saw a tomasini and de rosa at last nights monday ride both were probably made from SLX tubing. The chrome was gorgeous. If i buy another steel bike it would have to made out of S3 tubing or Deda 16.5 or something that would get the frame as light as an aluminum frame, components would be campy centaur. It don't really matter what the components are i'll wind up stripping them off and just using the frame. fixie crowd discovered steel road bikes because they ride great and when you strip them you can get close to a 17lb bike easy. 

Best luck for a company would be a fixie with a steel frame, horizontal dropouts and derailluer hanger so the fixie stuff can be stripped off for full road conversion.


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## raymonda

Needs to be lugged and double butted. I think you could do well using Tange Prestige tube set. It should come with a steel lugged fork and be of race type geometry. Maybe a bit more relaxed with a slightly longer top tube, e.g. LeMond suggested geo. The lugs should be sculpted, including the bottom bracket. Tange makes some nice affordable ones. 

Down tube shifter bosses would also be great for the retro crowd that would prefer down tube shifters. Internal rear brake guides would be nice but braze ons are fine. Horiztontal or Breezer rear drop outs are both good but the former is preferred.

An added feature of chrome fork blades, seat and chainstays with one primary color would add a touch of class. Leave the decals off so the buyer can do what he pleases or pass along a sticker kit so the buyer can choose.

$450.00 as a price point and you'll sell a million. 

BTW sign me up for a a red one with a 50cm seat tube and 53.5cm top tube.


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## mordicai

*Waterford*

Been riding steel for 67 years so you might say I'm a bit set in my ways. My lastest ride which I've had for 9 years is a Waterford, which is by far the best, most fun riding bike I've owned. Waterford steel fork; Easton carbon handlebar; Mavic open pro; Fizik Aliente; Tompson post and the rest Ultega. I'd love to try Chorus , but $$$. Waterford make a hell of a nice bike, but if you want flash buy a trek.


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## Lazy Spinner

Hmmm...the Salsa Pistola was recently discontinued and that is a real shame. Do something like that. A comfort geometry steel steed with 105 or Rival (maybe Apex) for around $1200-1500. For most riders, this would be the perfect training bike. Think of it like a metal Roubaix - great for long days, sportives, and base miles that lets you save the light sexy carbon ride for days and rides that matter.


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## AlexCad5

1)Unlike the Motobecane Le Champion I bought from you, I'd suggest a significantly taller head tube and a shorter top tube than the Le Champion. Racers aren't going to buy this.

2)OS tubing is a must. Columbus would be a plus!

3)Chromed Lugs would really set it apart.

4)White paint with red panels are a must, and an optional light Metallic Blue with cream panels.


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## rollinrob

Something built with Columbus spirit tubing, doesn't have to be lugged, or all spirit tubing...Just the three main tubes and then put something a bit cheaper in the back. That way you can market it as a columbus spirit tubed bike! Mention that pegoretti uses the same tubing and you will no doubt have a winner! A couple of years ago orbea put some out tig welded frames spirit frames, i am riding one now lots more than my Orbea orca . How about geometry from the past, a 73-73 all the way around, even in the smaller sizes. Carbon forks seem common place and cheep enough. Any chance you can still get some older ultegra 10 and you have a winner!


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## Don Duende

1. Lugged frame, chrome lugs would be classy
2. Racy geometry ala 1980s Italian steel, like a Cinelli SC, lively and fun to ride
3. Carbon fork with a steel fork optional upgrade
4. Apex groupset, easily upgradeable for the buyer
5. Classic paint schemes
6. Allows 28c tire clearance
7. Less than $700 with a decent wheelset, $450 with cheap wheels


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## sanrensho

For someone like me, who wouldn't normally consider (non-vintage) steel, I'd want to see a lightweight tubeset w/carbon fork of course. Not sure how feasible this would be at a reasonable price point. 

If you could build a lightweight steel road or CX frame, I would consider that for a winter/back-up/second bike. The steel would sure take the edge off for gravel riding and broken up pavement.

Components also wouldn't matter to me, as I would probably strip it to use what I have, as long as the frame is light enough to consider building around.

And it sure would be nice if you could start to publish confirmed frame weights. I've had at least two friends buy your bikes based on my recommendation, and they are happy with their purchases.


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## bikesdirect

Thanks for all the input; this is a tricky type bike spec

On forks - I think it is clear a nice steel fork that matches the bike is best; as you can always buy an aftermarket CF fork -- PLUS a steel fork looks and rides great on a nice steel frame

Cost of Lugged High-Grade Steel frames is much higher than anyone expects; exceeds the cost of CF frames.

So the best way I think for us to get past the cost issue is to offer bikes where the complete package is so aggressive that the wheels & group are worth the price. Then if buyers want to change things around to alter specs or cost - they can easily do it.

On the $299 butted 4130 and $399 butted 4130 road bikes; the specs are easy. And everyone sees the value right away. But on high-grade tubing lugged bikes it is much harder; I have even gotten quotes that exceed Ti frames [and Ti frames are 2 to 3 times more than CF] -- so steel is tricky as the cost goes from about the same as Aluminum to higher than Ti!

I am going to do something very aggressive for nice frames with complete groups; just to see how much interest there really is in this style road frame.

Thanks again


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## mtbbmet

skyliner1004 said:


> price point? Like i said i would never buy a steel bike because they're too flexy, just not my style of riding, and they look like crap. But depending on the components i'd pay less than an identically equipped aluminum bike.


The custom steel cross frame I just had built weighs less, and is stiffer in the bb, than the Ridley Crossbow I had last year. It also rides smoother, and looks exactly how I want it to look.

To the OP, I have 3 steel frames currently. One lugged 531 circa 1983, an MXL (yet to be built), and a custom cross out of Columbus. I also have had MANY aluminum and carbon race bikes. I like steel to ride, but for racing I prefer high end carbon. Cheap carbon rides like junk and is often heavier and flexier than a equally priced aluminum frame.
Anyway, if I was looking for a club racer type bike I would want it in lugged 853. I would want a lugged steel fork, or a carbon fork w/Al steertube depending on what I wanted to use it for. I would want eyelets, and I would expect that you could put a 28 tire on it. I would want it to be spec'd well, but not high end. Double only. Compact is for girls and destists. Actually, I don't even know a single girl that rides compact. Just dentists.
For a 853 frame and fork the price I would have a very hard time saying no to would be in the $700-800 range


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## juanj

mtbbmet said:


> For a 853 frame and fork the price I would have a very hard time saying no to would be in the $700-800 range


Me too.

When would this bike hit market, if ever?


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## dr4cats

*Keep it simple*

Make a good quality steel frame with high quality steel tubing and sell the frames for less than $650-750. Mature riders will buy it and slap on the group and wheels they want. And for the lazy buyers, sell a full bike with that frame with Mavic and Ultegra for the hard core senior riders....baby boomers are getting older and they'll buy that bike at less than $1500.

Must have carbon fork.

For looks...thin tubing, classic look with/without butting. Complete bike MUST weigh less than 18.5 lbs.....well less than 19 lbs. Ideal 17 lbs.

No DST's, modern internal cables with ultegra brifters and groupset. Compact cranks (double - no triple) and 11-28 cassettes.......I guess I am just placing an order here......

A good looking steel bike with good components will always sell. I bought my Titanium bike from BD, and I love the bike. I like it better than my CF Tarmac. If BD sells a such a steel bike in the future; I am definitely buying one.

Cheerio


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## FatTireFred

go high end... really high end. the better the better. no mixed groups. forget going cheap here. bring some glory back to the name


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## velodog

Speaking of steel, how about a Pedersen?


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## bikesdirect

FatTireFred said:


> go high end... really high end. the better the better. no mixed groups. forget going cheap here. bring some glory back to the name



I was thinking something like this;
with Reynolds 725 and either Full Red or Full Ultegra
or option of either -- with nice Mavic wheels


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## NealH

That's a very nice looking bike. I prefer scalloped seat stay ends but, its just a matter of preference. What you have there looks plenty good, and will likely ride every bit as good as any steel bike.


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## FatTireFred

bikesdirect said:


> I was thinking something like this;
> with Reynolds 725 and either Full Red or Full Ultegra
> or option of either -- with nice Mavic wheels




the group and black trim/bits don't fit the frame's look/style... better to sell it as a frameset. and while you're at it, re-do your decals into something classic and more fitting for this one, or at least put 'em in the more traditional place on the down tube. if it had nice horiz drops you might also sell it to the ss/fg crowd


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## bikesdirect

NealH said:


> That's a very nice looking bike. I prefer scalloped seat stay ends but, its just a matter of preference. What you have there looks plenty good, and will likely ride every bit as good as any steel bike.



THANKS

I am looking to make prices so attractive that even those that are not crazy about steel will be tempted to try it.


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## ssm-gd3

what is the eta for this bike?


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## nas130

I am in the market for a steel bike right now. I purchased a planet x ti over your offering only because it was built by lynskey.

Beautiful bike, what would it weigh as speced? I think the polished lugs are the way to go. Why not do the wheels, stem and seatpost in silver as well. You could pretty much count on me to order this bike if speced as is.


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## raymonda

bikesdirect said:


> I was thinking something like this;
> with Reynolds 725 and either Full Red or Full Ultegra
> or option of either -- with nice Mavic wheels


Looks great! Now chrome the rear ss and cs and sell it as a frame onlt and you have sold one to me. I'm glad your thoughts are in line with mine. 

BTW, please make a 50cm frame. Many don't.


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## Richard

Nice, but that stem ruins it. Nitto Dynamic and a silver seatpost would do wonders.


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## mark4501

be sure to offer a full range of sizes - including at least 62cm. 63 cm and 64 cm would be nice as well. so many bikes max out at 60 cm and then you've lost me as a potential customer.


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## sanrensho

The SRAM crank and derailleur really hurt my eyes. Needs a silver post and stem too, but the crank is the worst offender.


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## Lazy Spinner

Not bad. Skip the Red offering and put Force on it. No one riding a steel frame will care about the extra 150 grams and the Force crank looks nicer.


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## SystemShock

......


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## SystemShock

......


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## andresmuro

bikesdirect said:


> I was thinking something like this;
> with Reynolds 725 and either Full Red or Full Ultegra
> or option of either -- with nice Mavic wheels


That looks f..ing awesome. It looks great all around.


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## tron

Lightweight steel sounds attractive to me. Someone posted a sub 16 lb or so lemonade recently and I have been looking to duplicate.


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## Jesse D Smith

bikesdirect said:


> We get lots of requests these days for high grade steel bikes
> 
> I know what is desired in an entry road in high grade steel [which is a price from $300 to $400 with full double butted 4130 and basic components and setup for sport or commute]
> 
> Seems in CX the requests are more in line with middle area; $500 or $600 in full DB 4130 and nice middle level parts with good wheels.
> 
> But we have started to get lots of requests for Reynolds or Columbus Lugged race bikes [like what I would call 'club racer'] with all types of different components.
> 
> If you wanted a high-grade steel lugged bike like this; what level? spec? price? would be most interesting to you? Double? Triple? Compact? With eyelets? Carbon fork or totalling traditional with tapered 4130 type fork?
> 
> And why would you like one; if you would
> and at what price would you feel it was too good of a deal to pass up
> 
> A few brands like Raleigh and Jamis and Surly seem to be moving this way - any catch your attention as a super good deal and/or spec?


There's a pretty good demand for non-lugged 853 frames on ebay. It's a proven design that kind of got it's life cut short with the proloferation of ultra light aluminum and then the influx of cheap China carbon. Once people began to recognize there was a bit of a trade-off and missed the ride qualities of the steel, they found there their options had kinda disappeared.
I think Shimano 105 components would satisfy many customers. It's proven and higher level components would only add unnecessarily to the price. People search for Ultegra or DA have too many other options.
I think it's the steel frame people are after, and not necessarily a lugged fork. A carbon fork would keep the weight respectable. Adding eyelets offers more pluses than minuses. 
Now if you'd consider a touring or commuting frame, I think there's a market for a steel option to Nashbar's aluminum frame. Horizontal or semi-horizontal dropouts with 132mm spacing and disc brake tabs would open up the options for later transformation to single speed or IGH, mtb hubs, etc.


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## bikesdirect

ssm-gd3 said:


> what is the eta for this bike?



I am hoping to have a limited number in RED [called GRAN PREMIO INFERNO] and in ULTEGRA [called GRAN PREMIO PRO] in November [for those that would like to buy themselves a holiday present]

I am going to use the Mavic Ksyrium Elites - as they are know wheels with ready market value [use them or sell them; either is a win]

I am wanting to get pricing such that with full Ultegra or full Red; the package is hard to pass by; I want to get some poeple to try this frame.


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## bikesdirect

Richard said:


> Nice, but that stem ruins it. Nitto Dynamic and a silver seatpost would do wonders.



Stem is actually real nice; but color is wrong

I ask for production in Silver on stem and post


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## bikesdirect

Jesse D Smith said:


> There's a pretty good demand for non-lugged 853 frames on ebay. It's a proven design that kind of got it's life cut short with the proloferation of ultra light aluminum and then the influx of cheap China carbon. Once people began to recognize there was a bit of a trade-off and missed the ride qualities of the steel, they found there their options had kinda disappeared.
> I think Shimano 105 components would satisfy many customers. It's proven and higher level components would only add unnecessarily to the price. People search for Ultegra or DA have too many other options.
> I think it's the steel frame people are after, and not necessarily a lugged fork. A carbon fork would keep the weight respectable. Adding eyelets offers more pluses than minuses.
> Now if you'd consider a touring or commuting frame, I think there's a market for a steel option to Nashbar's aluminum frame. Horizontal or semi-horizontal dropouts with 132mm spacing and disc brake tabs would open up the options for later transformation to single speed or IGH, mtb hubs, etc.



Two interesting points:

1 - 853 costs very close to Ti ~ so we do contrate on the Ti; but there might be a market for some 853

2 - Heck Yes - Touring bikes I think should be steel; our Windsor Tourist & Moto Gran Turismo sell very weel; in fact we are always running out

We have 3 different steel CX bikes in the works; which can do double duty as commuters. A lot of our current CX bikes in Aluminum & Ti are used for commuting & light touring; so it makes sense


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## bikesdirect

mark4501 said:


> be sure to offer a full range of sizes - including at least 62cm. 63 cm and 64 cm would be nice as well. so many bikes max out at 60 cm and then you've lost me as a potential customer.



I must admit; our first run is 52, 54, 56, 58, and 61
[getting Blue & Orange on Ultegra bike --- Black & Red on Red bike]

this is a trail run to see how it goes; we often do small runs of bikes we are testing for market acceptance [just did a bunch of Sram MTAs in new 20-speed and 30-speed XO - to find out which was most popular; very interesting results]

I do like doing 46cm and 64cm in several bikes; especially 64cm bikes sell well for us.

I intend to have steel road bikes from $299 to $1999 for 2011; with lots of options; then we can learn what the market is for high-grade steel [already know Tourist market is very good for 4130 bikes]


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## FatTireFred

bikesdirect said:


> I am hoping to have a limited number in RED [called GRAN PREMIO INFERNO] and in ULTEGRA [called GRAN PREMIO PRO] in November [for those that would like to buy themselves a holiday present]
> 
> I am going to use the Mavic Ksyrium Elites - as they are know wheels with ready market value [use them or sell them; either is a win]
> 
> I am wanting to get pricing such that with full Ultegra or full Red; the package is hard to pass by; I want to get some poeple to try this frame.




once again, it seems you already have something in mind/planned. that's pretty clear from having the specs/available sizing and photos in hand and 2-month lead time... so why ask the board for opinions (besides the ulterior motive)? seriously, is this just more pre-advertising, a.k.a., your heads-up service to prospective buyers? when does the boat cast off, or has it already left?


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## raymonda

Jesse D Smith said:


> There's a pretty good demand for non-lugged 853 frames on ebay. It's a proven design that kind of got it's life cut short with the proloferation of ultra light aluminum and then the influx of cheap China carbon. .


Actually, 853 is better served lugged. Brazing adds more heat, thus making the frame even stronger. TIG welding 853 became more popular because it was faster and cheaper to produce.

853 is my favorite Reynolds tubing. A lugged frame of 853 would cost more but it sure would be sweet!


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## raymonda

bikesdirect said:


> Two interesting points:
> 
> 1 - 853 costs very close to Ti ~ so we do contrate on the Ti; but there might be a market for some 853
> 
> 2 - Heck Yes - Touring bikes I think should be steel; our Windsor Tourist & Moto Gran Turismo sell very weel; in fact we are always running out
> 
> We have 3 different steel CX bikes in the works; which can do double duty as commuters. A lot of our current CX bikes in Aluminum & Ti are used for commuting & light touring; so it makes sense


Mike,

It would be a great bonus if you could also sell the frame individually.


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## bikesdirect

raymonda said:


> Actually, 853 is better served lugged. Brazing adds more heat, thus making the frame even stronger. TIG welding 853 became more popular because it was faster and cheaper to produce.
> 
> 853 is my favorite Reynolds tubing. *A lugged frame of 853 would cost more but it sure would be sweet!*



I like this too
but for sure as much or more than Ti
and so the market maybe rather limited


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## kiroskka

bikesdirect said:


> I was thinking something like this;
> with Reynolds 725 and either Full Red or Full Ultegra
> or option of either -- with nice Mavic wheels


 That's a pretty sharp looking frame, but those components and especially the wheels look horrible with it. You should make the frame available to buy by itself.


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## buck-50

Pretty disappointing.

1. the paint looks cheap. With all the amazing black and red paint jobs in motobecane's history, you could at least try to give it something with some style.

2. Why do you want anyone's opinion if you've already ordered the bike?

3. Why would I get your frame when I could get an older frame, built of similar or better material for less? 

So, meh.

Last time I fall for one of your advertising schemes, and I say that as someone who's been thinking about buying one of your MTBs pretty seriously.

Think I'll go with Singular instead. Unclefuzzy sells them and doesn't shill them. 

If I ran the world, you'd get the banhammer for this crap.


----------



## Dave Hickey

buck-50 said:


> Pretty disappointing.
> 
> 1. the paint looks cheap. With all the amazing black and red paint jobs in motobecane's history, you could at least try to give it something with some style.
> 
> 2. Why do you want anyone's opinion if you've already ordered the bike?
> 
> 3. Why would I get your frame when I could get an older frame, built of similar or better material for less?
> 
> So, meh.
> 
> Last time I fall for one of your advertising schemes, and I say that as someone who's been thinking about buying one of your MTBs pretty seriously.
> 
> Think I'll go with Singular instead. Unclefuzzy sells them and doesn't shill them.
> 
> If I ran the world, you'd get the banhammer for this crap.



I fell for it too........Funny you mention MTB...I was looking at them for single speed 29er....I'm looking elsewhere.... some things never change


----------



## FatTireFred

buck-50 said:


> the banhammer




ban or suspend... and the same for the entire motobecane board


----------



## Jesse D Smith

bikesdirect said:


> I like this too
> but for sure as much or more than Ti
> and so the market maybe rather limited


How's the pricing on Nivacrom tubing? Zona? Just adding the Columbus or Reynolds name would give the frame added legitimacy.


----------



## Jesse D Smith

bikesdirect said:


> Two interesting points:
> 
> 1 - 853 costs very close to Ti ~ so we do contrate on the Ti; but there might be a market for some 853
> 
> 2 - Heck Yes - Touring bikes I think should be steel; our Windsor Tourist & Moto Gran Turismo sell very weel; in fact we are always running out
> 
> We have 3 different steel CX bikes in the works; which can do double duty as commuters. A lot of our current CX bikes in Aluminum & Ti are used for commuting & light touring; so it makes sense


Sorry, I totally forgot about the Windsor and Moto.


----------



## Peanya

First, what might be a good idea business-wise: 853 with a slightly larger downtube and bottom bracket for power transfer. Makes for a very light weight bike that defies the popular myths about heavy and flexy steel. I think a gently sloping top tube helps with fit.

For a personal thought: I know I've said it before, but I'd love a 953 steel bike. Especially naked or part naked stainless. You also want something that looks nice, take designs from the '80's steel bikes with chromed lugs. Take a hop over to the retro-classic section and see what people truly love in bikes. 
You get a frameset available in 953 for what you said (in a PM) you could sell it for, and I will buy one from you next year. Pump pegs for full frame pumps rould rock too!
As for forks, I prefer curved with steel, as they really maintain the look. Chrome or at least painted carbon, not naked.
EDIT: Took a second look at the pic. Black wheels & stem = big no-no. The downtube and fork seem too thin on that for my tastes, but that's just me maybe.
EDIT add too: Me too for making framesets available separately. Regardless of lugs or no, a lightweight option will be more popular than a heavier one, of course.


----------



## nas130

Peanya said:


> For a personal thought: I know I've said it before, but I'd love a 953 steel bike. Especially naked or part naked stainless. You also want something that looks nice, take designs from the '80's steel bikes with chromed lugs.


I would love to see a 953 bike. There are no inexpensive ones on the market, you could sell that bike at three levels, similiar to your ti bike. Imagine choosing b/n a 953 or ti with rival for 1600 bucks


----------



## Scooper

I've been riding a lugged Waterford Reynolds 953 bike for three years and absolutely love it, but just the tubeset costs the framebuilder close to $600, and that's not counting the BB shell, lugs, dropouts, or labor. When you add the wear and tear on tooling it's hard for me to imagine a lugged 953 bike with Rival for anywhere close to $1600, even if the labor costs next to nothing.


----------



## SystemShock

Yeah, y'know... this advertising/shill thread really should be moved to the Motobecane forum. Like everyone else, I fell for it too. 

Mods?
.


----------



## nas130

"I've been riding a lugged Waterford Reynolds 953 bike for three years and absolutely love it, but just the tubeset costs the framebuilder close to $600, and that's not counting the BB shell, lugs, dropouts, or labor. When you add the wear and tear on tooling it's hard for me to imagine a lugged 953 bike with Rival for anywhere close to $1600, even if the labor costs next to nothing."

I have no idea what 953 costs, however building a bike in ti cant be cheap either. What about colombus xcr or whatever the other stainless is?


----------



## dr4cats

Nice bike, Mike....

That's the way to do it...we do not want another "retro" bike....we want a nice steel frame with modern good components so the bike has good performance like a modern Serotta or Colnago. There is no shame in a steel framed bike with 21st century technology attached to it.....on the contrary, it is actually great.

I would certainly buy a modern performance steel framed bike with modern age technology and with an acceptably low weight....so I could race it and piss off the CF riders......:aureola: 

Kudos on this nice bike...keep up the good work.

The Le Champion Team TI I bought from you is a real gem by the way.


----------



## Scooper

nas130 said:


> I have no idea what 953 costs, however building a bike in ti cant be cheap either. What about colombus xcr or whatever the other stainless is?


Columbus XCr tubeset costs about the same as a Reynolds 953 tubeset.

Nova Cycles Supply - Columbus XCr pricing


----------



## Peanya

SystemShock said:


> Yeah, y'know... this advertising/shill thread really should be moved to the Motobecane forum. Like everyone else, I fell for it too.
> 
> .


I have no problem with it being here. I think it's admirable that he's asking for suggestions.


----------



## Jesse D Smith

SystemShock said:


> Yeah, y'know... this advertising/shill thread really should be moved to the Motobecane forum. Like everyone else, I fell for it too.
> 
> Mods?
> .


Not sure you understand the definition of a "shill".


----------



## ultraman6970

Cant understand why the OP do not just copy a high end pinarello, colnago or bottechia from the mid 80's to start figuring out stuff. Tubing is only a details because for sure the bike will have 1 or 2 tubes that are real and all the other ones will have 0.9 straight gauge (costs) tubing, all the mass produced steel bikes are like that nowadays, unless u go custom. Then they put the sticker and the buyer is happy and proud of his theoretically full Reynolds 853 frame.

Triple chroming is expensive so wonder if the chinese can do it for cheap, good paint can be done anywhere. Long chen sells zillions of lugs so get good lugs is not a problem. 

There u go OP, your problem is fixed


----------



## ultraman6970

This is how a steel bike should looks like to start with, then figure it out the tubing.

http://www.ibikedb.net/bikes/34387-bottecchia-teodoro-carnielli

http://www.cykelhobby.com/bottecchia.htm


----------



## SystemShock

Peanya said:


> I have no problem with it being here. I think it's admirable that he's asking for suggestions.


That's just it... he's not. He's already spec'd the bike, and is just advertising, as is his MO.

Re-read some of the thread... I'm not the only one who's picked up on it,.
.


----------



## SystemShock

Jesse D Smith said:


> Not sure you understand the definition of a "shill".


Not sure you understand BikeDirect's MO.

Regardless, it does properly belong on the Motobecane forum.
.


----------



## bikesdirect

SystemShock said:


> That's just it... he's not. He's already spec'd the bike, and is just advertising, as is his MO.
> 
> Re-read some of the thread... I'm not the only one who's picked up on it,.
> .



Actually, already spec'd several steel bikes and getting ideas here on several others.
That was the purpose of the thread; see what specs and price ranges are interesting for those that prefer lugs. As I stated, I think I know about the demand on the Tigged 4130 bikes in terms of prices & specs..

Several comments on here that indicated members expected extra low prices on new lugged frames relative to cost actually conveniced me that frames needed to be kitted with high level parts to mitagate the cost.

Lugged frames are much different; you have much higher cost and a difernt group of customers who are willing to pay more to get the lugs.

I personnally think more questions to forum members by manufacturers would be better; not worse -- for the forum & cycling in general.


----------



## bikesdirect

ultraman6970 said:


> This is how a steel bike should looks like to start with, then figure it out the tubing.
> 
> http://www.ibikedb.net/bikes/34387-bottecchia-teodoro-carnielli
> 
> http://www.cykelhobby.com/bottecchia.htm



these are nice looking bikes
lots of chrome; and in fact; some customers have ask us for fully chromed lugged frames / bikes

I also like the full paint look
actually most high-end bikes I sold in the late 70s / early 80s were full paint; single color
next most popular was full paint with panels.


----------



## bikesdirect

ultraman6970 said:


> Cant understand why the OP do not just copy a high end pinarello, colnago or bottechia from the mid 80's to start figuring out stuff. Tubing is only a details because for sure the bike will have 1 or 2 tubes that are real and all the other ones will have 0.9 straight gauge (costs) tubing, all the mass produced steel bikes are like that nowadays, unless u go custom. Then they put the sticker and the buyer is happy and proud of his theoretically full Reynolds 853 frame.
> 
> Triple chroming is expensive so wonder if the chinese can do it for cheap, good paint can be done anywhere. Long chen sells zillions of lugs so get good lugs is not a problem.
> 
> There u go OP, your problem is fixed



You are partly correct; the typical build today is 3 tubes of name brand tubing; then tappered guage 4130 rear tri & fork blades. Sometimes the rear tri & fork is the same gauge and weight as those in the complete tubing set.

it would be odd to see a full Reynolds 853 frame
you can get a rather light bike then you do; but it can be too expensive to sell


















this bike is rather light for a mountain bike; 853 and more money than a Ti bike
therefore; not really a good market for it

That is part of the reason for this entire post; figure out what cyclists might actually be interested in for lugged road bikes & frames

Seems like if the frame can be under $500 and have name brand tubing; there maybe some interest; if a complete bike can be sold for less than the value of the group & wheels; then some customers would be willing to try out a lugged name-brand tubing frame from Tainwan -- but that there is still more interest if the frame is made in USA or Italy.

Steel bikes are an up hill battle: much more risky than Aluminum, Carbon, or even Ti -- however, I like steel and intend to try several configuations.


----------



## mtbbmet

I like the bike, looks good. I would chrome the whole fork though. It would probably be cheaper to do too, wouldn't it?


----------



## ultraman6970

Chrome is not cheap, and to have only one layer of chrome is better to get the fork painted. Quality triple plated is super expensive but it will last 100 years if you take care of it.


----------



## GipsyKing

Mike, not sure I'll make it without a new bike 'til your steel crossers come out, but I think you've got a nice lineup in your sub-$1000 cross bikes. If you could duplicate those in quality steel, I think you'd get a lot of entry- to mid-level road-and-trail riders//fitness riders/commuters like myself who grew up on steel and may be upgrading from steel MTBs, etc. I like to put in 30+ mile rides a couple times a week. Mix of road and trail.

In steel, I've also looked at Surly Cross-Check, Pacer and LHT; and Bianchi Volpe. Right now I think I've got it narrowed down to a Fuji Cross Comp and your Moto Outlaw. Neither of which are steel but I don't care for the bar-end shifters on the Surly, and the price points are slightly less on the Fuji and Moto -- but the grupos are decent.


----------



## stickney

Several years ago I recall Mike posting some questions about CX bikes (perhaps here, perhaps over at bikeforums, I don't recall). Anyway, he had many responses, and I suspect he had speced a bike already, but myself, and a handful of others posted about wanting an affordable titanium CX bike because there weren't many on the market (I couldn't find this thread or I would post it). Several months, perhaps a year later, Mike launched some TI bikes and eventually even a TI CX bike. 

Did he listen several years ago? I don't know. But BD does have some affordable TI CX bikes available (mine just arrived today, so call me a shill). 

I agree, BD uses some marketing that isn't "conventional" -- but they also don't sell a conventional product conventionally either. It's not personal, it's business. 

A few years ago Litespeed/ABG had a guy named Herbert on this board, I thought that was great. Perhaps there are other manufacturers with a presence (pretty sure Lynskey has a few guys on here, that is also great). 

BD isn't for everyone, but frankly, I like that they have a presence, and I like that they ask and respond to questions (even if their questions appear to be merely trying to validate what they already have done, though I suspect Mike/BD are watching this thread to tweak their final product.)


----------



## bikesdirect

GipsyKing said:


> Mike, not sure I'll make it without a new bike 'til your steel crossers come out, but I think you've got a nice lineup in your sub-$1000 cross bikes. If you could duplicate those in quality steel, I think you'd get a lot of entry- to mid-level road-and-trail riders//fitness riders/commuters like myself who grew up on steel and may be upgrading from steel MTBs, etc. I like to put in 30+ mile rides a couple times a week. Mix of road and trail.
> 
> In steel, I've also looked at Surly Cross-Check, Pacer and LHT; and Bianchi Volpe. Right now I think I've got it narrowed down to a Fuji Cross Comp and your Moto Outlaw. Neither of which are steel but I don't care for the bar-end shifters on the Surly, and the price points are slightly less on the Fuji and Moto -- but the grupos are decent.


Our 3 or 4 Steel CX bikes will be out next spring; nice sample setting in my office right now. I am very excited about CX bikes in steel. [right now UNO is the only steel CX we have]


----------



## bikesdirect

stickney said:


> Several years ago I recall Mike posting some questions about CX bikes (perhaps here, perhaps over at bikeforums, I don't recall). Anyway, he had many responses, and I suspect he had speced a bike already, but myself, and a handful of others posted about wanting an affordable titanium CX bike because there weren't many on the market (I couldn't find this thread or I would post it). Several months, perhaps a year later, Mike launched some TI bikes and eventually even a TI CX bike.
> 
> Did he listen several years ago? I don't know. But BD does have some affordable TI CX bikes available (mine just arrived today, so call me a shill).
> 
> I agree, BD uses some marketing that isn't "conventional" -- but they also don't sell a conventional product conventionally either. It's not personal, it's business.
> 
> A few years ago Litespeed/ABG had a guy named Herbert on this board, I thought that was great. Perhaps there are other manufacturers with a presence (pretty sure Lynskey has a few guys on here, that is also great).
> 
> BD isn't for everyone, but frankly, I like that they have a presence, and I like that they ask and respond to questions (even if their questions appear to be merely trying to validate what they already have done, though I suspect Mike/BD are watching this thread to tweak their final product.)



Thank you for your purchase.
I am sure you will love your Ti bike; everyone does [our feedback on Moto Ti bikes is better than one any bike I have ever sold in 30 years]

And yes I get ideas off these threads all the time; in fact I wish I had time to read more threads on forums. And I have learned a lot from this thread which will impact specs, pricing, & order mix.

One thing for example is: some people appreciate lugged steel; but their preception of cost is low. So I think the best way to get value to these cyclists is kit a very nice frame with popular wheels & group that can be used; swapped; or sold. Thus bringing down the actual cost of the frameset.


Another thing is: many people like Silver components on lugged frames for a old-school look; and some even like quilled stems. Of course; aheadset bikes can be converted easily to threaded with quill [the other way; not so easy] -- and unfortunatly many nicer high value wheelsets are not readily available in silver [so matching to cockpit is harder]

anyway, I think the forums are a great place for all manufacturers to visit and take part in.


----------



## kma

I’d be interested in a steel bike that had a comfortable geometry like a Fierte or Roubaix but the utilitarian features of a Surly. Pump peg, plenty of eyelets, and ability to fit 28c tires w/ fenders. Lugs are not important to me but they do look very nice. Some butted tubing to shave some weight. Semi sloping butted steel forks. Solid color in black and/or white. SRAM Rival compact w/ 11-32. I’d use this as my main road bike for centuries, club rides, and light touring. I like your Ti bike but if I could save some money by going with steel and getting the features mentioned above, then I would buy.


----------



## bikesdirect

kma said:


> I’d be interested in a steel bike that had a comfortable geometry like a Fierte or Roubaix but the utilitarian features of a Surly. Pump peg, plenty of eyelets, and ability to fit 28c tires w/ fenders. Lugs are not important to me but they do look very nice. Some butted tubing to shave some weight. Semi sloping butted steel forks. Solid color in black and/or white. SRAM Rival compact w/ 11-32. I’d use this as my main road bike for centuries, club rides, and light touring. I like your Ti bike but if I could save some money by going with steel and getting the features mentioned above, then I would buy.



I think you are in line with many; however, there are some that really like lugs
of course; with tig welding you can improve tubing or features over lugs at the same cost [ie lugs cost a lot]

we will have 3 steel CX bikes next year; that get close to your wish list


----------



## mrdelprete

bikesdirect said:


> I must admit; our first run is 52, 54, 56, 58, and 61
> [getting Blue & Orange on Ultegra bike --- Black & Red on Red bike]
> 
> this is a trail run to see how it goes; we often do small runs of bikes we are testing for market acceptance [just did a bunch of Sram MTAs in new 20-speed and 30-speed XO - to find out which was most popular; very interesting results]
> 
> I do like doing 46cm and 64cm in several bikes; especially 64cm bikes sell well for us.
> 
> *I intend to have steel road bikes from $299 to $1999 for 2011*; with lots of options; then we can learn what the market is for high-grade steel [already know Tourist market is very good for 4130 bikes]


How about some downtube shifters on a nice moto steel frame? We going to see anythin like that?


----------



## kabex

I think an affordable (tiagra & generic crank/brakes) traditional geometry bike would be good for those who are starting out but don't like the ride of aluminium

also a slightly higher spec chromed, lugged bike with 105/apex would be nice


----------



## bikesdirect

kabex said:


> I think an affordable (tiagra & generic crank/brakes) traditional geometry bike would be good for those who are starting out but don't like the ride of aluminium
> 
> also a slightly higher spec chromed, lugged bike with 105/apex would be nice



We have entry level full 4130 bikes coming this spring
Plus a really nice DB 4130 CX bike with Apex group late spring
and 2 other CX 4130 bikes in the $500 range for spring

adding lots of steel bikes
and in the future we will have them at all levels


----------



## 727442

I would like to buy another high end steel bike but it must be stiff and light. Does not matter if it is lugged or if it has traditional geometry. Ultregra components or better would be desirable with a $1500 ballpark price range. 

FYI...I would have purchased a TI bike from BD but the top tube is too long (similar to my Lemond with 853 steel). I personally appreciate you asking us for our opinions. Thanks


----------



## PlatyPius

This thread is useful for me, since I want to have lots of steel road bikes in my shop. Unfortunately, I see that everyone seems to think that good steel and lugs are cheap. Maybe I'll settle for "several" steel road bikes instead of "lots".


----------



## chas0039

Probably too late for this input, but offering a few steel frames only would really be helpful. I have passed on two bikes because of gear I would just replace. My last purchase from BD was one of your Ti frames and, even though the frame was overpriced based on the price of a complete bike, you would not have made the sale otherwise.

If you ever offered a Reynolds 853 frame in Black, I would have to add another bike to my stable.


----------



## chas0039

Probably too late for this input, but offering a few steel frames only would really be helpful. I have passed on two bikes because of gear I would just replace. My last purchase from BD was one of your Ti frames and, even though the frame was overpriced based on the price of a complete bike, you would not have made the sale otherwise.

If you ever offered a Reynolds 853 frame in Black, I would have to add another bike to my stable.


----------



## classtimesailer

bikesdirect said:


> We have entry level full 4130 bikes coming this spring
> Plus a really nice DB 4130 CX bike with Apex group late spring
> and 2 other CX 4130 bikes in the $500 range for spring
> 
> adding lots of steel bikes
> and in the future we will have them at all levels



Is it spring yet? Does the DB bike have a level TT?


----------



## Garilia

I'm very interested in steel options for a road bike. I need something in a 49 or 50 cm frame, as my standover height is 29.5 inches (about 749 mm). I got a 15" frame on my Motobecane Fantom 29, so I need a smaller framed bike.


----------



## jgc123

*Fwiw*

I am a relative 55 year old newbie, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. 

I took a risk given my low level of knowledge and bought the orange gran premio pro 58 cm size. It was a bit of risk because of 1) my lack of knowledge of modern bicycles and 2) my relatively short legs and long trunk which led me to buy a 58 cm frame even though I am 6'2" tall and 3) unavailability for a test ride.

But since none of the local bike shops had a high quality lugged steel bike on the showroom floor anyway, I took the chance.

Fully assembled It weighed 20.1 pounds without pedals but if felt great on my first ride and handled very well in the heavy wind (gusts up to 40 mph). The paint and detail were even better than the pictures would indicate. I guess I could cut weight with a carbon fork or something, but it was very comfortable and the wheels and components were way better than anything I have ever owned. 

The guy in my riding club who has ridden for decades and has dozens of bikes loved the detail, the paint, the components and the price and said that he wished he hadn't just bought a bike because he was tempted to buy one after I asked him to take it for a short test ride.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I presently give it a 9 because I value durabillity and reliability. It will have to serve me well for at least 5 years to earn a 10.


----------



## kabex

Please post pictures!

The thing that gets me, is that the bike looks ugly as sin simply because it's set up all wrong.

Super long steerer tube, lots of ugly spacers, really ugly cockpit, etc.

It needs a short steerer tube coupled with Ritchey Classic components (shiny chromed stem,bars,post) and a nice old-school Regal saddle.

It would look stunning like that, probably one of the most beautiful off-the-shelf bikes around.


----------



## jgc123

I was afraid somebody would ask that. I have a digital camera but no clue as to how to post pictures. Plus the aesthetic stuff is completely meaningless to me.


----------



## jgc123

*Fwiw,*

I rode the Gran Premio pro on a morning "B" pace (15-16 mph) ride for 20 miles, and an afternoon "C" pace (12-14 mph) for 30 miles. As a 55 year old newbie, I learn something every time out. I got rid of the reflector things in the spokes because they acted like wind sails every time I got hit by a gust from the side. My riding buddies told me to get reflective tape from the automotive section at a store, and put that on the wheels instead. The ride is still very comfortable, though I may need to find a more comfortable seat for longer rides.

They also tightened up my brakes a bit, and leveled my seat. I have a lot to learn but I like the idea of opening up a box and doing some of the assembly. I have bought a book because I want to learn how to care for it myself.

I am still a bit wobbly. The 28 pound hybrid may have been slow, but it was solid.

I again got a lot of interest from the riding club which appears to be broken down into high end carbon riders and less expensive but light aluminum riders. They were surprised that you could get a higher end lugged steel bike that was not an expensive $3000 hand made bike Unfortunately, the only two competitors in the mass produced steel realm, the Jamis Quest and the Raleigh Record Ace, are not actually on the show room floors. 

The morning ride was hilly (by Central Virginia standards) and the low gearing was a really nice feature for a man my age. I am 6'2" and roughly 185 and could tell that hills would be easier if I lost another 5-10 pounds - body weight, not bike weight.

The newfangled Ultegra 6700 is not as quiet as I would have guessed for a high end system but it was really solid and easy for me to learn.

There are several railroad tracks on these rides and that may have contributed to the cracke head on my lightly used aluminum hybrid bike. The steel handled the railroad tracks as well as you can expect.

One of the bike club guys swears that he is going to buy the SRAM red version even though he bought a high end carbon bike a few months ago. I like my bike, but that sounds a bit extreme to me. But I can see that this is an addictive sport, and so far I feel "right" about my choice of a solid, light, relatively affordable lugged steel bike.


----------



## chas0039

I'm sure you will like it. BD does a great job. I would have purchased one myself, especially as the black is stunning, but for the 1" headset and the inability to get just the frame.

Mike has an unrealistic impression of how easy it is to get rid of extra parts.


----------



## chas0039

system error


----------



## darth sidious

my 2 cents, i just upgraded to the carbon bike from the steel schwinn, I would not go back, the carbon offers me the ride quality of the schwinn at i would have to say a fraction of the weight. I how ever use the steel for training as it is tons heavier and will help build strength. I paid 30 bucks for mine and invested another 150 so no more than 200 bucks with tax for me.


----------



## Ab24029

Sorry to resurrect the old thread.

I wonder(Mike still available?), what happened to new for 2012 Gran Turino Reynolds 725 tubing tig-welded bike with carbon fork and "sport" geometry that fits 28 tires or fenders and have braze-on for rack and fenders? 

Bikesdirect does not have them, I think, never did. I did see some "demo" models selling on e-bay for under a $1000.00. I think, most commuters, tourists , long-distance riders and weekend worriers would love to get a bike like that instead of paying more for 4130 heavier frames from other manufactures or more expensive lugged frames. Races will not get those bikes, but most people do not race anyway. 

I actually could not find any bikes with higher steel tubing and sports geometry(18-19lbs), unless I go to England and look at Genesis Equilibrium. There only a few bikes exists on this side of custom on this side of Atlantic, like Jamis Quest, Soma Smoothie(frame only) , but even those do not come with 725 tubing


----------



## jazzbolicious

There's one of those TIG welded bikes on ebay right now.

GRAN PREMIO SHIMANO TIAGRA TRIPLE ROAD BIKE FLOOR MODEL | eBay


----------



## Ab24029

jazzbolicious said:


> There's one of those TIG welded bikes on ebay right now.
> 
> GRAN PREMIO SHIMANO TIAGRA TRIPLE ROAD BIKE FLOOR MODEL | eBay


I know, wrong size:mad2:


----------



## lardo

Ab24029 said:


> Sorry to resurrect the old thread.
> 
> I wonder(Mike still available?), what happened to new for 2012 Gran Turino Reynolds 725 tubing tig-welded bike with carbon fork and "sport" geometry that fits 28 tires or fenders and have braze-on for rack and fenders?
> 
> Bikesdirect does not have them, I think, never did. I did see some "demo" models selling on e-bay for under a $1000.00. I think, most commuters, tourists , long-distance riders and weekend worriers would love to get a bike like that instead of paying more for 4130 heavier frames from other manufactures or more expensive lugged frames. Races will not get those bikes, but most people do not race anyway.
> 
> I actually could not find any bikes with higher steel tubing and sports geometry(18-19lbs), unless I go to England and look at Genesis Equilibrium. There only a few bikes exists on this side of custom on this side of Atlantic, like Jamis Quest, Soma Smoothie(frame only) , but even those do not come with 725 tubing




If you look at their entire lineup, they have ZERO steel geared bikes. Such a shame.






jazzbolicious said:


> There's one of those TIG welded bikes on ebay right now.
> 
> GRAN PREMIO SHIMANO TIAGRA TRIPLE ROAD BIKE FLOOR MODEL | eBay


There's something wrong with the look of compact geometry with classic steel.


----------



## jazzbolicious

An old stock 853 bikesdirect model in 54cm. Probably not quite what you're looking for either, though!

MERCIER SERPENS STEEL SHIMANO ULTEGRA ROAD BIKE 54cm | eBay


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## kma

I bought one of your Gran Premio Inferno's many years ago when you first introduced them. I still ride it and have thousands of miles on it. I get lots of compliments on it. The subtle small decal on the top tube and no downtube decal is nice and classy. I would be interested in buying another steel bike with Sram Red 11 speed compact. Would also consider Shimano Dura Ace 11 compact. I'm okay without lugs to keep the price in check. Compatibility for fatter tires and eyelets for fenders/rack. Would also entertain discs but calipers would be fine too. Thanks!


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