# Cervelo Test Team on Dura Ace 7800



## roadie_490 (Jun 11, 2004)

Read on Cyclingnews.com how the Cervelo team has opted to go back to the 7800 platform. I've seen other continental teams also using this level of component. 

Thoughts, questions, discussion?

I seem to recall a cyclingnews review on the 7900 and I thought they commented that 7800 shifted better?


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

I rode with a guy yesterday that had just switched from 7800 to SRAM Red.
While I like the idea/ergonomics of the shifters and didn't like the fact that is seemed pretty noisy whenever I was behind him. On the other hand my main riding buddy just got a 7900 gruppo and he loves it.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i read somewhere (on this board, i think) that thor and other sprinters were finding it difficult getting crisp shifts on the smaller cogs. i think thor has been on "old" shifters all season.


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## flyboy50 (Mar 13, 2007)

I've heard that with 7900 it's tough for sprinters to get the chain to drop down to the smaller cogs on the cassette, and using 7800 shifters works a lot better. Maybe 7800 has higher tension springs or something?  

It also sounds like the open design of the 7900 shifters lets stuff get in there and reduces the longevity of the shifting.  

This is all in addition to the new "shift cable under the bar tape" design, which probably causes a little more cable friction. Seems like a dumb idea to me; there's nothing wrong with having the external cables. :idea:


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## jupiterrn (Sep 22, 2006)

7800 is proven technology. Will take a year or 2 to work out all the bugs on the 7900. Rider preference I am sure has something to do with it. While I am sure Shimano would like everyone on the latest and greatest they must still be happy if their name is on.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

7900 has new cable routing (under the tape) but it has similar 1:3 cable pull ratios to the old Shimano stuff which calls for really light springs. SRAM and Campy both have 1:1 cable pull and can (do) have much heavier springs because of that, this easily overcomes the higher friction of the under bar routing. I bet 7900 will have trouble unless some kind of lower friction cable/housing is used like Nokon, Gore, etc.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Wonder what kinda stuff that "Chain-less" favorite was 'riding' when he crested the big hill in that Flanders race last weekend, bike over his shoulder because his team car couldn't get there with another bike (chain) whatever.

Seems like I've seen and heard of plenty of broken chains since the equipment "improved" by adding lots more cogs at the rear. Skinny chains do seem to break a little more often. How do they last as compared to say a 9sp? New chain every 500 miles if you are a pro? Good thing they have guys who get paid to keep all that stuff working properly. When we get up to 18 cog cassettes I guess we'll be seeing NASCAR style pit stops..."Yes, Phil, I'd say Lance is on a two-chain strategy in the Tour this year".... "Right Paul, but Cavendish is hoping for a full course yellow so he can get back on the ......"
Don Hanson


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Wonder what kinda stuff that "Chain-less" favorite was 'riding' when he crested the big hill in that Flanders race last weekend, bike over his shoulder because his team car couldn't get there with another bike (chain) whatever.
> 
> Seems like I've seen and heard of plenty of broken chains since the equipment "improved" by adding lots more cogs at the rear. Skinny chains do seem to break a little more often. How do they last as compared to say a 9sp? New chain every 500 miles if you are a pro? Good thing they have guys who get paid to keep all that stuff working properly. When we get up to 18 cog cassettes I guess we'll be seeing NASCAR style pit stops..."Yes, Phil, I'd say Lance is on a two-chain strategy in the Tour this year".... "Right Paul, but Cavendish is hoping for a full course yellow so he can get back on the ......"
> Don Hanson


no team car is allowed on some of the coppled segments. I believe koppenberg is one of those. It does not matter in any case, his race was over. 
How often did chains break for the pros in the past? we dont really know since there was no where near the same amount of pictures taken and spread all over the web. 
The fact that we look back at millers chain break last year indicate it does not happen too often today either.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

*Thread Hijac, but worthwhile..*



den bakker said:


> no team car is allowed on some of the coppled segments. I believe koppenberg is one of those. It does not matter in any case, his race was over.
> How often did chains break for the pros in the past? we dont really know since there was no where near the same amount of pictures taken and spread all over the web.
> The fact that we look back at millers chain break last year indicate it does not happen too often today either.


 Yes, with more media and online coverage of pro cycling we do get more information, especially about stuff the media thinks is will enhance their "readership" because it's sensational, like a favorite crashing or a chain costing someone a race.

One aspect of racing that many cyclists (and those in other 'equipment and endurance' sports) often neglect to pay close enough attention to is Utility. By Utility, I mean how something really works every time, race after race, in the Real World. 

We tend to get all hung up in all these 'whiz-bang' great ideas, the super-lightest available new bikes, the latest diet, the latest super food, etc etc. We sometimes skip right over the fact that in order to even have a chance of winning a race we have to be there to the finish, on a working bicycle with a 'somewhat' functioning rider turning those cranks, making the wheels go round, moving us towards the finish .

So when I hear of chains parting, taking Pro riders right out of races where they may have had a chance to win, I also think..."Hmmm...If I hear about a few more, recently, in the pros, how many of us 'mortals'-- us thousands and thousands of club and amature racers-- are breaking chains, too?" Us weekend warriors without Team equipment budgets and totally professionally buffed-out bikes? How bout when a pro breaks a chain and he DOES get another team bike then has to drag his ass back into the race? Worth it for the extra gear or two, the concealed cable aerodynamics, the quick change of the battery shift? I don't think so, and it seems Cervelo doesn't either...Or maybe Shimano isn't paying them enough...hee.

So my point is: 11, 12, 1-x speeds don't do squat to improve your chances of a win if you can't depend totally on the chains. Is the 'increase' in performance worth the possible decrease in dependability? 

Don Hanson


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Wonder what kinda stuff that "Chain-less" favorite was 'riding' when he crested the big hill in that Flanders race last weekend, bike over his shoulder because his team car couldn't get there with another bike (chain) whatever.
> 
> Seems like I've seen and heard of plenty of broken chains since the equipment "improved" by adding lots more cogs at the rear. Skinny chains do seem to break a little more often. How do they last as compared to say a 9sp? New chain every 500 miles if you are a pro? Good thing they have guys who get paid to keep all that stuff working properly. When we get up to 18 cog cassettes I guess we'll be seeing NASCAR style pit stops..."Yes, Phil, I'd say Lance is on a two-chain strategy in the Tour this year".... "Right Paul, but Cavendish is hoping for a full course yellow so he can get back on the ......"
> Don Hanson


The hill, was the Koppenberg and it was climb no. 7 for the race.
As far as skinny chains popping more often, the entire Quick Step team went through without a problem. Last I recall, they did pretty well, with 11 speeds and all.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I spoke with a Rabobank DS*

and a few of the team wrenches at the ToC and they said the 7900 still had some bugs they were working out
my guess is pro riders aren't big fans of 'bugs' during races


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## roadie_490 (Jun 11, 2004)

I was pretty amazed how many riders were using 7800 at Paris Roubaix. Even noticed that the Columbia team were mixing and matching (based on pics on cycling news)...7900 shifters and 7800 rear derailleur.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

The carbon cage on the 7900 RD isn't very popular amongst some cyclocrossers either.


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

jupiterrn said:


> 7800 is proven technology. Will take a year or 2 to work out all the bugs on the 7900. Rider preference I am sure has something to do with it. While I am sure Shimano would like everyone on the latest and greatest they must still be happy if their name is on.


Like jupiterrn said... proven technology.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

MG537 said:


> The hill, was the Koppenberg and it was climb no. 7 for the race.
> As far as skinny chains popping more often, the entire Quick Step team went through without a problem. Last I recall, they did pretty well, with 11 speeds and all.


Ain't Quickstep on Shimano?


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## UK rider (Aug 19, 2004)

roadie_490 said:


> I was pretty amazed how many riders were using 7800 at Paris Roubaix. Even noticed that the Columbia team were mixing and matching (based on pics on cycling news)...7900 shifters and 7800 rear derailleur.


I heard mention that the 7900 levers looked a bit fragile to crash damage on the cobbles. I guess using the 7800's would mean you wouldn't be one the first to find out. 

The newer rear mech, I think, tapers in shape slightly towards the rear pivot, wheras the older one doesn't so much - older seeming more 'solid'. If you compare that to the Campag * body shape also - the 11 speed, for instance, looks a lot bulkier (stronger?).


* Campag - Campy - you say tomato


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## ralph1 (May 20, 2006)

All new equipment takes time to iron out the bugs, $himano might of been on a tight deadline to get the stuff out to the public. I am having a rethink on my grouppo, my 7800 DA set is 3 yrs old, still in really good nick, but I might go back a step to the Ultegra SL groupo for my next one.....do I really need DA? probably not a local club level.

cheers

Ralph


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

uzziefly said:


> Ain't Quickstep on Shimano?


No they are on campy 11 speed. They did do some mix and match with parts but Boonen rode 11 speed shifters and rear deraillure, at the least, in PR


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

There's a lot of talk here and even on the news sites about how teams are skipping 7900 in favor of the supposedly 'more durable' 7800. I'm not saying that isn't the case, but I'll offer an alternative theory.

Bikes ridden in P-R and even RVV are essentially one off custom bikes, unlikely to be raced the rest of the year. Teams don't have unlimited resources, especially since this is essentially the first year for Super Record and 7900. I'd guess the teams put 7800 on these bikes because thats what they have spares of. Any increased familiarity or durability could be an ancillary benefit.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Yes, with more media and online coverage of pro cycling we do get more information, especially about stuff the media thinks is will enhance their "readership" because it's sensational, like a favorite crashing or a chain costing someone a race.
> 
> One aspect of racing that many cyclists (and those in other 'equipment and endurance' sports) often neglect to pay close enough attention to is Utility. By Utility, I mean how something really works every time, race after race, in the Real World.
> 
> ...


As far as skinnier chains being less durable, look at a 7800 and 7700 chain. The 10spd chain is (IMO) much better quality than the 9 spd. Heck, HG chains are a huge step up in quality over IG. Sure, less material is going to be inherently less durable, but its often made up for in improved design.


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## coasterbrake (Jun 10, 2006)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Wonder what kinda stuff that "Chain-less" favorite was 'riding' when he crested the big hill in that Flanders race last weekend, bike over his shoulder because his team car couldn't get there with another bike (chain) whatever.
> 
> Seems like I've seen and heard of plenty of broken chains since the equipment "improved" by adding lots more cogs at the rear. Skinny chains do seem to break a little more often. How do they last as compared to say a 9sp? New chain every 500 miles if you are a pro? Good thing they have guys who get paid to keep all that stuff working properly. When we get up to 18 cog cassettes I guess we'll be seeing NASCAR style pit stops..."Yes, Phil, I'd say Lance is on a two-chain strategy in the Tour this year".... "Right Paul, but Cavendish is hoping for a full course yellow so he can get back on the ......"
> Don Hanson


Cancellara broke a SRAM chain not a Shimano, After that race Saxo Bank went back to using DuraAce chains on all their bikes.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Also using PR as an example, some teams used longer reach brakes to get more tire clearance. 7900 levers only work with 7900 brakes. So if using a brake with a longer arm you would be forced to use 7800 levers, a 7800 FD, and a 7800 crank. It is my understanding that this is why Garmin rode 7800 on the weekend and for no other reason.
There were also quite a few guys on Di2 there.
I think that people read too much into some teams choice of equipment and decide that 7900 must be no good.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

I can only recall three chain breaks in recent history ...
Cancellara's RVV 2009
Millar's Giro 2008
Bettini's E3 (or maybe it was RvV as well) 2007

Doesn't seem like an epidemic to me, though unfortunately for all three I think they were in the process of attacking or responding to an attack. (Makes sense I suppose)


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

UK rider said:


> * Campag - Campy - you say tomato


That's funny - I was reading your response before I looked at your user name and I was thinking "Must be a Brit."


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## tecnosabba (Jan 10, 2007)

*narrower = weaker ?*



kbiker3111 said:


> As far as skinnier chains being less durable, look at a 7800 and 7700 chain. The 10spd chain is (IMO) much better quality than the 9 spd. Heck, HG chains are a huge step up in quality over IG. Sure, less material is going to be inherently less durable, but its often made up for in improved design.




This is not my idea, but I read it somewhere when Campy advertised their new, narrower 11sp chains as being tougher than their previous 10 sp chains, "despite being narrower."

One journo (I don't have the link), commenting this assertion basically said that (in my own words now) it all had to do with leverage. Imagine the pins’ rotating axle is where they are attached to the outer and inner chain link plates. Under power, the sprocket exerts a force on the centre of the pin, with a tendency to rotate the pin around its junction with the plate, or to deform the pin since it is attached on both ends to the plates. With a narrower chain, the distance between the centre of the pin and the junctions with the plates will be less important than with a wider chain. So, the force exerted by the sprocket teeth shall result in less leverage, with less tendency to rotate or deform the pins. All other things being equal, this could well result in a “stronger” chain, not a weaker one

Conclusion : the narrower chain is not stronger despite being narrower, but because it is narrower.

I think he's right.


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## UK rider (Aug 19, 2004)

bmxhacksaw said:


> That's funny - I was reading your response before I looked at your user name and I was thinking "Must be a Brit."


 

my bad English probably gave it away


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