# Index vs. Friction



## links0311 (Aug 20, 2004)

I am looking for a set of downtube shifters. I've never had a good set before and I wanted to ask everybody before I bought some which you like better and why? Also, where's a good place to pick some up? Thanks.

-Links


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## simonton (Mar 11, 2007)

I think e-bay is probably the best place. I recently purchased a set of Dura ace 8 speed shifters which you can switch from index to friction-great feature IMO


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Friction!*

Friction is maintenance free and never wears out. Mounted on those cubical bosses on the downtube, they're also easy to reach, I think moreso than out on the brake levers.

Downside is they're difficult to work with 7 speed clusters, probably worse with 8 speeds. Also, if the bb flexes and pulls on the rear derailleur cable, the wingnut may not be tight enough to hold the chain in gear, and the drivetrain will upshift. So you might have to get into the habit of tightening the levers when about to sprint or whack hard up a hill.

I've been using them on 6 and 7 speeds for years. They'll work with any freewheel and rear derailleur, because you fine tune the shift, not the click stops. Once in a great while, I have to unscrew the wingnuts and clean em. Dust kicked up by the front wheel makes em squeak.

I have the Campy aluminum paddles, ca. 1983, elegant in their simplicity, and as light as they get.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

I always shifted friction levers in a flash. And when I went to a stiffer frame, flex shifting dissapeared completely. 
It made me a better rider to shift accurately when hitting it really hard.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*It's an art.*



jhamlin38 said:


> I always shifted friction levers in a flash. And when I went to a stiffer frame, flex shifting dissapeared completely.
> It made me a better rider to shift accurately when hitting it really hard.


There's an art to friction shifting. With clicks, you just push the lever to the next stop and the chain goes ka-chunk into the next cog. You don't even have to modulate pedal pressure, just keep plodding. With friction, you can slip the chain silently into the next gear without hardly feeling it, with just a half pedal soft stroke. It's an art of coordination click shifters can't appreciate. Easier on the chain, too.


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## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

I prefer the Shimano indexed downtube shifters. You can get 9 or 10 speed at most places like Nashbar, Performance, Excel, etc.

If you need 6,7, or 8 speed, try eBay or Here:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/shifters.html

http://www.yellowjersey.org/friction.html


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## ckilner (Oct 4, 2004)

Be careful with any of the SunRace or low-end Shimano indexed DT shifters - most of these lack a friction mode.


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## Reynolds531 (Nov 8, 2002)

links0311 said:


> I am looking for a set of downtube shifters. I've never had a good set before and I wanted to ask everybody before I bought some which you like better and why? Also, where's a good place to pick some up? Thanks.
> 
> -Links


With the old freewheels (before the advent of index shifting) you would get a lot of chatter if the derailleur was a little out of place, and you could fine tune the shift to eliminate the chatter. You would feel and hear the chatter, make a small adjustment, and then the chain would stay on the cog under full load.

With newer freewheels designed for index shifting I had difficulty getting the derailleur in exactly the right place. There was little or no feedback chatter, then when I put a little more load on the chain, it would occasionally autoshift.

I switched out from fiiction to indexed and have not had a single autoshift since.

So, If you want to go retro and use friction shifting, I'd recommend finding an old freewheel.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

I'm using Dura-Ace downtube shifters, and they are a revelation in index mode. My old friction Campy DT shifters were always loosening up, causing chain rub and noise. The DA shifters work perfectly every time, and I can shift several gears at a time, counting the gears with each click. I would recommend the DA shifters, and if for some reason you don't like the indexing, you also can set them on friction mode. My bet is that you would leave them indexed.


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## links0311 (Aug 20, 2004)

My frame has a smooth downtube, so where do I put the shifters? It looks to be 20-30 years old. Could it have had stem shifters instead of downtube shifters? How can I tell which to get? Thanks for the Dura-Ace post, I will try and find some in my price range for this bike. 

-Links


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

You'll need to get a set of clamp on levers- lucky for you these are fairly common on ebay- you should be able to find a set of Campy Nuovo Record shifters with clamp for between $10 and $40, depending on whether the market for old stuff is up or down... It's spring, so I'm guessing the market is up.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

If your frame doesn't have downtube bosses, you could always install Dura-Ace bar-end shifters as well. They cost about the same and are widely available.


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

I recently re-built my steel steed with it's original Dura-Ace 8sp group, and am (re) amazed at how nice they work. It's been quite a while since I've used down tube shifters. You nail the gear everytime and the cluck in index is solid and firm. If you hit a sharp incline, you can basically bang the lever down with your hand and skip accurately many gears at once. If you have an adjustment problem on the road...no matter, twist to friction and go, no need to even stop. With SRAM making high quality and cheap 8spd cassettes and chains, there's no need to pay through the nose to keep things running smoothly.

brewster


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## Andy M-S (Feb 3, 2004)

*Da!*



links0311 said:


> I am looking for a set of downtube shifters. I've never had a good set before and I wanted to ask everybody before I bought some which you like better and why? Also, where's a good place to pick some up? Thanks.
> 
> -Links


I use Dura Ace 9-speed DT shifters, sometimes in index, sometimes in friction. Mostly the latter. These are the nicest shifters I have ever used, bar none...


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## gng207 (Sep 20, 2006)

I agree, DA 9spd DT shifters work great and give a bike a simplistic retro flavor which I enjoy.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*I know exactly what you mean.*



Reynolds531 said:


> With the old freewheels (before the advent of index shifting) you would get a lot of chatter if the derailleur was a little out of place, and you could fine tune the shift to eliminate the chatter. You would feel and hear the chatter, make a small adjustment, and then the chain would stay on the cog under full load.
> 
> With newer freewheels designed for index shifting I had difficulty getting the derailleur in exactly the right place. There was little or no feedback chatter, then when I put a little more load on the chain, it would occasionally autoshift.
> 
> ...


I've had that experience with the old Shimano Uniglide freewheels, the ones with the twisted teeth. The chain can be off quite a bit and you won't hear it, until it skips under pressure. Bummer. The old Regina and Suntour freewheels, still somewhat available, don't do that. They let you know when the chain isn't perfectly aligned.

Nice to know you can still use DT shifters with 8 and 9 speeds, but will 8 and 9 survive the marketing push to 10 speeds? If I ever obtain a new bike, DT clickers would be the way to go. I like the short cable runs, and also small hooded dedicated brake levers. Those STI levers look clunky--well, Campy aren't so bad.


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## links0311 (Aug 20, 2004)

I like the look of the Dura Ace 9-speed DT shifters, but I need a clamp to put them on my downtube. Is there a way to attach these to a smooth downtube? 

-Links


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## joloughl (May 5, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Friction is maintenance free and never wears out. Mounted on those cubical bosses on the downtube, they're also easy to reach, I think moreso than out on the brake levers.
> 
> Downside is they're difficult to work with 7 speed clusters, probably worse with 8 speeds. Also, if the bb flexes and pulls on the rear derailleur cable, the wingnut may not be tight enough to hold the chain in gear, and the drivetrain will upshift. So you might have to get into the habit of tightening the levers when about to sprint or whack hard up a hill.
> 
> ...



M'kay. Couple of things here:

1) "maintenance free and never wears out"? Of course they need maintenance, and will eventually wear out. Every mechanical part does.

2) "they're also easy to reach, I think moreso than out on the brake levers". Absolutely not! Brifters are absolutely easier to get to, and your hands stay on the bars. I love friction shifters as much as anyone, but this is simply not correct.

2) "difficult to work with 7 speed clusters, probably worse with 8 speeds". What? Sorry, but this is just nonsense.

3) "if the bb flexes and pulls on the rear derailleur cable, the wingnut may not be tight enough to hold the chain in gear, and the drivetrain will upshift. So you might have to get into the habit of tightening the levers when about to sprint or whack hard up a hill.". This is one of the more bizarre statements I've read on this board, and that's a fact. Never in over twenty years of cycling have I come across this one. If you've actually shifted properly into the gear you want then this will not happen, frame flex or no.

4) "wingnut". What "wingnut"? I've had any number of friction shifters down through the years, and nary a "wingnut" on any of them. If your friction shifters have wingnuts then fine for you, but this is not a comment you can generalize on.

5) "Once in a great while, I have to unscrew the wingnuts and clean em. Dust kicked up by the front wheel makes em squeak.". See comment 1.

Sorry. I don't mean to be getting at you, but every once and a while I come across a posting that I just have to respond to. This is one of those postings. :mad2:


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## undies (Oct 13, 2005)

While we are on the subject...

Do the indexed Dura-Ace downtube shifters work with a Deore LX FRONT derailleur (FD-M571S) or would I need to use it in friction mode? I assume friction mode is an option... no? I ask because I know that the Shimano STI shifters are generally not compatible with a Deore FD, but I have no idea about DT shifters.


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## bicyclerepairman (Mar 12, 2003)

*Au contraire!*



joloughl said:


> M'kay. Couple of things here:
> 
> 1) "maintenance free and never wears out"? Of course they need maintenance, and will eventually wear out. Every mechanical part does.


Funny, I've been working on bikes for more than 30 years, and while I've seen shifters corrode from the weather, I've never seen a pair worn out. Haven't heard of it happening from anyone I've talked to, either. I guess I don't get out enough.



joloughl
2) "they're also easy to reach said:


> I ride about 50% on the hoods, and 50% on the tops. When I'm riding the tops, the OP's statement is correct for me. Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

undies said:


> While we are on the subject...
> 
> Do the indexed Dura-Ace downtube shifters work with a Deore LX FRONT derailleur (FD-M571S) or would I need to use it in friction mode? I assume friction mode is an option... no? I ask because I know that the Shimano STI shifters are generally not compatible with a Deore FD, but I have no idea about DT shifters.


DA 9-speed downtube front shifters only operate in friction, so that settles that. 
They work with any double front derailleur. Someone else will know if they work with triple front derailleurs.


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## joloughl (May 5, 2004)

Funny, I've been working on bikes for more than 30 years, and while I've seen shifters corrode from the weather, I've never seen a pair worn out. Haven't heard of it happening from anyone I've talked to, either. I guess I don't get out enough.

RESPONSE: What can I say, I have. Whether you get out enough or not, I can't say.



joloughl
2) "they're also easy to reach said:


> I ride about 50% on the hoods, and 50% on the tops. When I'm riding the tops, the OP's statement is correct for me. Absolutely.
> 
> RESPONSE: So when you're on the "tops" you find it easier to take a hand off the bars and reach down to the downtube and fiddle with a small lever brazed thereon, rather than reach a few inches forward and use what are (for both STI and Ergo) well-designed and logical controls? Sorry, this just doesn't sound right to me.
> 
> ...


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## ckilner (Oct 4, 2004)

They make clamp-on shifter bosses, but they can be hard to find. The most common ones are the SunRace shifters for clamp-on or braze-on...the clamp has some cheap bosses on them and the levers can be used with the clamp or without. I set up a friend with these and they are very cheap - I was concerned about damaging the paint. The NR clamp-on's from ebay work the same, but are far better quality.

If you go with bar-end levers, you will still need clamp-on cable bosses - these are easier to find since integrated levers use these as well.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Speaking of wingnuts!*



joloughl said:


> Funny, I've been working on bikes for more than 30 years, and while I've seen shifters corrode from the weather, I've never seen a pair worn out. Haven't heard of it happening from anyone I've talked to, either. I guess I don't get out enough.
> 
> RESPONSE: What can I say, I have. Whether you get out enough or not, I can't say.
> 
> ...



There's nothing to go wrong with friction shifters that can't be fixed with cleaning them (road dust mentioned), no ratcheting mechanisms to go bad, for example, like on all click shifters. I use "maintenance free" relatively. 60,000 miles with only occassional cleaning is relatively maintenance free, wouldn't you agree?

Reaching them is very straightforward from the tops of the bars: simply slide one hand down about 4 inches without moving any other part of your body or taking the other hand off the bars, and twist the lever. Mounted on the downtube, twisting it hard will not upset the directional stability of the bike. Pushing a brake lever sideways defiinitely will. It also requires a sideways reach of the hand (unless on the hoods), an awkward move as far as balance is concerned. Very easy to upset the steering! Downtube shifters don't do that.

Point and click bikes work great with hands on the hoods, but that's it. It's more awkward to go from tops to hoods to make a shift than it is to go from hoods to downtube, although I can see your reservations about lifting your arm off the hood, moving it back over the handlebar and dropping it to the downtube.

I believe it would be very hard to friction shift an 8 or 9 speed gear cluster, even moreso a 10 speed. The spacing is so close, it would be difficult to feel when the chain is aligned with a particular cog. I've never tried it, but have had problems occassionally with 7 speeds, and prefer the feel of 6 speeds.

I use the term "wingnut" with humor. The actual "wing" is really a half round stainless steel wire that you can hold like a wingnut and turn the screw that holds the shifter on the bike. Capiche? LIKE a wingnut, right? As SIMPLE as a wingnut! Yeah, that's what I mean! I have one on an old reflector bracket, too. I can take it off without a wrench! You probably have some wingnuts, too! (Perhaps a few rattling around in your head!)


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## joloughl (May 5, 2004)

There's nothing to go wrong with friction shifters that can't be fixed with cleaning them (road dust mentioned), no ratcheting mechanisms to go bad, for example, like on all click shifters. I use "maintenance free" relatively. 60,000 miles with only occassional cleaning is relatively maintenance free, wouldn't you agree?

RESPONSE: "relatively" is not "free" :wink5: 

Reaching them is very straightforward from the tops of the bars: simply slide one hand down about 4 inches without moving any other part of your body or taking the other hand off the bars, and twist the lever. Mounted on the downtube, twisting it hard will not upset the directional stability of the bike. Pushing a brake lever sideways defiinitely will. It also requires a sideways reach of the hand (unless on the hoods), an awkward move as far as balance is concerned. Very easy to upset the steering! Downtube shifters don't do that.

RESPONSE: "down about 4 inches"? Where are your shifters mounted? Can't say I've ever had the "directional stability" of my bike upset from shifting with my Ergos or SRAM X9s. Not even a little. I would suggest that taking a hand off the bars, on the other hand, does. I ride both brifters and downtube shifters, and there are many times I'm riding, e.g. on bad pavement, where I won't try and shift with the downtube shifters (thus removing a hand from the bars) but I would be able to shift with the brifters.

Point and click bikes work great with hands on the hoods, but that's it. It's more awkward to go from tops to hoods to make a shift than it is to go from hoods to downtube, although I can see your reservations about lifting your arm off the hood, moving it back over the handlebar and dropping it to the downtube.

RESPONSE: "Point and click"?  " It's more awkward to go from tops to hoods to make a shift than it is to go from hoods to downtube". Not in my experience.

I believe it would be very hard to friction shift an 8 or 9 speed gear cluster, even moreso a 10 speed. The spacing is so close, it would be difficult to feel when the chain is aligned with a particular cog. I've never tried it, but have had problems occassionally with 7 speeds, and prefer the feel of 6 speeds.

RESPONSE: Ok, now you're just bluffing. You obviously haven't tried, and are just guessing. I ride an 8-speed friction-shifted bike, and it's absolutely fine. I expect it would also be fine at 9 speeds. If someone else has done it with 10 speeds, please let us know how it works for you.

I use the term "wingnut" with humor. The actual "wing" is really a half round stainless steel wire that you can hold like a wingnut and turn the screw that holds the shifter on the bike. Capiche? LIKE a wingnut, right? As SIMPLE as a wingnut! Yeah, that's what I mean! I have one on an old reflector bracket, too. I can take it off without a wrench! You probably have some wingnuts, too! (Perhaps a few rattling around in your head!)

RESPONSE: "Perhaps a few rattling around in your head!". Now that's just rude. If you can't play nice, don't play at all.


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## photosbyjt (Apr 7, 2007)

As far as friction shifters go, I really liked Mavic's shifters and deraillers. I thought that they were far superior to both Campy and Shimano. Of course we are talking about the late eighties here.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Are we having fun yet?*



joloughl said:


> "relatively" is not "free"


The evidence is, from a cumulative 6 years fixing bikes in bikeshops, clickers are a pain in the bu%% to maintain. They not only get crudded up with road dust, you can't take them apart. The little click stops get rounded off, the springs go flat, and if the derailleur hanger is slightly bent and the jockey pulleys don't line up exactly with the cogs, they don't shift worth a darn. That's the most common problem riders have: click shifters not shifting, or skipping on the cogs. Easy to solve all those problems with friction shifters.



> "down about 4 inches"? Where are your shifters mounted?


Well, okay, 6 inches.



> ...there are many times I'm riding, e.g. on bad pavement, where I won't try and shift with the downtube shifters (thus removing a hand from the bars) but I would be able to shift with the brifters.


Point conceeded, McKay! You can shift at the same time as bumping over potholes with a death grip on the hoods. Great. I've always stayed in one gear negotiating those situations. You don't want the chain mis-shifting on one of those bumps, do ya?

On sliding the chain without clicks on 8, 9, or 10 speeds, you're right again, I haven't tried it. I have enough issues with 7 speeds. I also am skeptical as whether you actually have a "friction shifted 8-speed." I think you're playing around. Show me a picture, heh? And even mountainbikers with clicks have resisted going to 10 speeds. They're sensitive enough with clicks! How the heck would you feel a friction shift?

You can nitpick, but I stand my ground. Friction shifters are THE WAY, sir! 25 years of intensive experience has left me with no doubts!

"Point and click" bike comes from Grant Peterson, decrying the lack of choice in road bike design, and the tyranny of integrated brake lever/shifters. He also likes downtube shifters, for most of the reasons I've stated above.


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## joloughl (May 5, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> The evidence is, from a cumulative 6 years fixing bikes in bikeshops, clickers are a pain in the bu%% to maintain. They not only get crudded up with road dust, you can't take them apart. The little click stops get rounded off, the springs go flat, and if the derailleur hanger is slightly bent and the jockey pulleys don't line up exactly with the cogs, they don't shift worth a darn. That's the most common problem riders have: click shifters not shifting, or skipping on the cogs. Easy to solve all those problems with friction shifters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Friction shifters are THE WAY". Perhaps for you, the greatest mind of the 1970s.

Yawn. Not that I have anything to prove to you, but see attached pic. Mavic/Simplex Retrofriction downtube shifters wired to an 8-speed Shimano 600 FD and a 9-speed Shimano Tiagra short cage derailleur. The chain is an SRAM 8-speed. The cassette is a Nashbar 8-speed (12-28). Crank is a Campy Mirage 9-speed.

Magically, it all works perfectly. Perhaps your 7-speed rig is not correctly tuned. Bring it into a shop and have a mechanic look at it for you.  :thumbsup:


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## Reynolds531 (Nov 8, 2002)

joloughl said:


> "Friction shifters are THE WAY". Perhaps for you, the greatest mind of the 1970s.
> 
> Yawn. Not that I have anything to prove to you, but see attached pic. Mavic/Simplex Retrofriction downtube shifters wired to an 8-speed Shimano 600 FD and a 9-speed Shimano Tiagra short cage derailleur. The chain is an SRAM 8-speed. The cassette is a Nashbar 8-speed (12-28). Crank is a Campy Mirage 9-speed.
> 
> Magically, it all works perfectly. Perhaps your 7-speed rig is not correctly tuned. Bring it into a shop and have a mechanic look at it for you.  :thumbsup:


Are you able to get the shift to stay in the gear you want everytime? Do you ever have an "autoshift" that you don't want and are not expecting? When I used frrction shifting with 8 speed, this autoshift would happen enough to make me lose confidence, even if that was only once every 50 shifts or so. I switched to indexed downtube and have never had an autoshift. Same compenents except the shifter. 

I shifted 6 speed conventional freewheels for 20 years and didn't have a problem, but my expereince is that 7 and 8 speed cassettes shift too easily without warning if the friction shifter is a little off.

Maybe you put up with 98% or 99% shiftig reliablity? I want 99.9%, and I can get it with old 5/6 speed freewheels and friction shifting or 7/8 speed and index, but not 7/8 speed and friction.


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## joloughl (May 5, 2004)

Reynolds531 said:


> Are you able to get the shift to stay in the gear you want everytime? Do you ever have an "autoshift" that you don't want and are not expecting? When I used frrction shifting with 8 speed, this autoshift would happen enough to make me lose confidence, even if that was only once every 50 shifts or so. I switched to indexed downtube and have never had an autoshift. Same compenents except the shifter.
> 
> I shifted 6 speed conventional freewheels for 20 years and didn't have a problem, but my expereince is that 7 and 8 speed cassettes shift too easily without warning if the friction shifter is a little off.
> 
> Maybe you put up with 98% or 99% shiftig reliablity? I want 99.9%, and I can get it with old 5/6 speed freewheels and friction shifting or 7/8 speed and index, but not 7/8 speed and friction.


No, no autoshifts. Something that may help here is that the Simplex retrofriction shifters have a fairly narrow barrel (which the cable wraps around), and so it takes a little more movement of the lever to effect a shift. This makes the whole system a little more tolerant of human error. It works remarkably well. I think it would also work pretty well on a 9-speed rig, based upon my experience with it on an 8-speed. 10-speed, I dunno, that's getting pretty tight, so the operator would have to be more precise.

Edit: I think this is one reason why the Simplex retrofriction shifters are still commanding a high price on eBay these days, you can use them with more modern drivetrains.


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

Mavic stuff was nice....I was sorta suprised to see SRAM be the one to take on the big 2 with a full group....I thought if anybody could do it again, it would be Mavic. Maybe the whole Mektronics flop has them scared to ever try it again.....they are probably making so much money selling $100 wheelsets for $800, they don't need to jump into the grouppo game again. 

brewster


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Sold!*



joloughl said:


> No, no autoshifts. Something that may help here is that the Simplex retrofriction shifters have a fairly narrow barrel (which the cable wraps around), and so it takes a little more movement of the lever to effect a shift. This makes the whole system a little more tolerant of human error. It works remarkably well. I think it would also work pretty well on a 9-speed rig, based upon my experience with it on an 8-speed. 10-speed, I dunno, that's getting pretty tight, so the operator would have to be more precise.
> 
> Edit: I think this is one reason why the Simplex retrofriction shifters are still commanding a high price on eBay these days, you can use them with more modern drivetrains.


Next bike I get, if that ever happens, will likely have 8, or 9 speeds, so I appreciate learning about your experiences. Simplex retro friction, eh?

In the meantime, though, I'm sticking to 6 or 7 speeds with my Campy paddles, having had the same problems as Reynolds 531.

But for the sake of argument, why do you have friction on your 8 speed, if your presumption is to prefer clicks on the brake levers?


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## joloughl (May 5, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Next bike I get, if that ever happens, will likely have 8, or 9 speeds, so I appreciate learning about your experiences. Simplex retro friction, eh?
> 
> In the meantime, though, I'm sticking to 6 or 7 speeds with my Campy paddles, having had the same problems as Reynolds 531.
> 
> But for the sake of argument, why do you have friction on your 8 speed, if your presumption is to prefer clicks on the brake levers?


It's "retrofriction", no space. I had the shifters, and wanted to relive the old days, when we all used downtube shifters. Think of it as nostalgia, if you will.

I think we've finished hijacking this thread. I can't teach those who won't be taught.

Good luck to you.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Who's hijacking this thread?*



joloughl said:


> It's "retrofriction", no space. I had the shifters, and wanted to relive the old days, when we all used downtube shifters. Think of it as nostalgia, if you will.
> 
> I think we've finished hijacking this thread. I can't teach those who won't be taught.
> 
> Good luck to you.


Aside from some rude delivery from both sides, we've kept this discussion on the straight and narrow, and, even if you aren't prepared to admit it, reached some conclusions and raised some issues for those interested in friction shifters as an alternative to clicks, nostalgia notwithstanding.

Good luck to you, too, professor!  I've always been a difficult student, please forgive me!


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## joloughl (May 5, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Aside from some rude delivery from both sides, we've kept this discussion on the straight and narrow, and, even if you aren't prepared to admit it, reached some conclusions and raised some issues for those interested in friction shifters as an alternative to clicks, nostalgia notwithstanding.
> 
> Good luck to you, too, professor!  I've always been a difficult student, please forgive me!


This all sounds far too civilised for an internet forum discussion.  

As for the "rude delivery", that's what some call "robust debate". :wink5: 

Keep the rubber side down.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

I've lived with click-shifting for years. I've used Shimano Positron back in the day (brother's bike) alongside friction shifters, then used Shimano indexed thumb shifters on my mountain bikes until Rapidfire shifters came along.

My current stable of bikes includes Shimano Rapidfire shifters, Campagnolo Chorus brifters, Campagnolo Chorus indexed downtube shifters (currently in friction mode), and one bike with bar-end friction shifters. They each have their place. I like the speed of shifting gears from the hoods when riding my carbon-fiber wonderbike. I like the light-weight and simplicity of downtube shifters, friction or indexed. I like the bar-end shifters because they are different. I will admit that it took some time for me to get used to friction shifting again.

For inexpensive downtube 9-speed shifters you can try Suntour GPX downtube shifters. In the 6-speed mode these shifters will give you about 9 clicks (good for 10 speeds) and pulls about the same amount of cable as 9-speed Shimano shifters (about 2.8mm per gear). You can always switch to friction mode if you want to go that route.


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## cratz2 (Aug 3, 2006)

I have two older bikes with downtube shifters. One is indexed 6 speed that also work in frictio nmode and the other is friction only 8 speed. I do slightly prefer the indexed when on uneven surfaces, but when Im flat, I dont really have a preference at all. The friction works 100% for me. Would I build a brand new modern road bike with 9 or 10 speed friction downtube shifters? More than likely not. But they work without fail for me.

This has been a very interesting thread to a long time lurker first time poster.


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## tube_ee (Aug 25, 2003)

*Friction shifting---*

8 speed is no biggie.. Cog spacing is the same as 7, just a wider hub. Adjust the limit screws and ride away. 9 or 10 I haven't tried, but with the small barrel on the Simplex retros I use, I doubt it would be much of a problem. All of my bikes but three use "9-speed" derailleurs (there really is no such animal), all have friction mode, and all shift perfectly either way. Except the Otero road bike and the Schwinn townie conversion, which are friction-only. I've got 2 sixes, two sevens, and an eight.

Autoshifting - The most likely culprit is the floating upper pulley on index-compatible derailleurs. Try switching the upper and lower pulleys and see if it doesn't go away. The floating pulley can leave the chain in a position where the derailleur doesn't make any noise, but under hard acceleration, like a standing start, the chain will try to go to where the shift lever wants it to be, and you'll get a skip, sometimes a full shift. Catridge bearing non-floating pulleys, like Bullseyes (the best) or one of the off-brands, don't float, so that's another solution. Me, I just backpedal before stopping. For some reason I've never understood, running the chain backward through the derailleur will expose misalignments that I can't otherwise hear.

Ease of access: From the hoods, brifters win, unless you use Kelly Take-offs. From the drops, I think barcons are just as fast, lighter, and have a friction mode for backup. From the tops, all shifting systems except stem mount and the Paul's "Thumbie" adapters are equally slow. In every case, you've got to move your hand.

Number of gears: 7 is about perfect for me. 8 and 6 are good, too. Going nine would cost way too much money, and would require having to buy a special chain for whatever bike I put it on. As it is now, I just buy 8-speed SRAM chains, and they work on every bike I own. Consider a road cluster with a 26T largest cog. 6, 7, 8, 9, the only thing that changes is the size of the small cog. 6 gives me a 14, 7 a 13, 8 a 12, and 9 an 11. With the 14-26 6-speed I sometimes (not often) run out of gear on long, straight, fast descents. It might slow me down a couple of MPH, but at 225 pounds, I go downhill plenty fast as it is, and the 14x53 is a better gear for pedalling out of fast sweepers than an 11 would be. When the turns are tighter, it's a complete non-issue. Sean Kelly used to sprint in a 52x15, and I couldn't beat him even now, so how much top gear do you really need?

--Shannon


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

joloughl said:


> . Never in over twenty years of cycling...
> Sorry. I don't mean to be getting at you, but every once and a while I come across a posting that I just have to respond to. This is one of those postings. :mad2:


Fredrico's response was of little consequence relative to the original question and should have simply been disregarded. But it appears that being limited to just "over 20 years of cycling" experience puts one in the awkward position of only being able to respond to a narrow range of postings. So I suppose you're excused.


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## joloughl (May 5, 2004)

refund!? said:


> Fredrico's response was of little consequence relative to the original question and should have simply been disregarded. But it appears that being limited to just "over 20 years of cycling" experience puts one in the awkward position of only being able to respond to a narrow range of postings. So I suppose you're excused.


Thank you, very generous.


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## glenj (Apr 26, 2002)

*Friction Shifting Works Good!*

I'm using my old Nishiki International as a commuter. I had the frame tweaked for a 130 axle in the rear and use Mavic Open Pros laced to Shimano Ultegra hubs with a 8 speed cassette. I still use the old Suntour Superbe derailleurs and Campy shifters from when I raced the bike in college almost thirty years ago. I had to replace the Sugino cranks as they finally bit the dust this year. I got some nice Gipiemme Campy clone cranks but will probably need to order a Phil Wood bb since the Shimano I'm using now is really too long.

This bike shifts better now than it did thirty years ago except that the chains and cassettes wear out much faster than the old six speed freewheels and chains. I seem to go through a cassette and chain every 4 to 5 thousand miles now rather than the ten or so thousand miles you could get with the old stuff.


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## onespeedbiker (May 28, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> There's an art to friction shifting. With clicks, you just push the lever to the next stop and the chain goes ka-chunk into the next cog. You don't even have to modulate pedal pressure, just keep plodding. With friction, you can slip the chain silently into the next gear without hardly feeling it, with just a half pedal soft stroke. It's an art of coordination click shifters can't appreciate. Easier on the chain, too.


Obviously you're not talking about Campy Syncro, or what I like to call friction assist. I like using them simply because they work so poorly and look so good. I also have the later model that can't be converted to friction.  

Brad


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## Sixty Fiver (Jul 7, 2007)

I love friction shifters and all but one of my geared bikes is equipped with them... my Trek mountain bike uses a Deore thumbie to handle shifting duties and can be switched to friction mode if needed. 

My touring bike runs Suntour BG shifters ( rer-badged Suntour Cyclones for touring), my Trek 7500 uses Suntour powershifters (thumbies), my Kuwahara MB uses a Shimano friction thumbie, and my '55 Peugeot runs a Simplex shifter for the rear and a Simplex Competition for the front D. 

The Competition is akin to a suicide lever and is actually quite the snappy little unit.










The other bikes with gears are old Raleigh three speeds which could be considered indexed / clickable shifters.

I am really fond of Suntour shifters and the DT powershifters are among my favourite shifters of all time. 

I also like the early Shimano DT shifters that had a switchable friction / indexed mode for the rear D and a straight friction shifter for the front D as indexed front derailleurs are simply a bad idea.


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## links0311 (Aug 20, 2004)

Nashbar has 9 speed indexed DA shifters that look awesome. Would it be possible to run these 9 speed shifters for a 7 speed bike? 

-Links


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## J-No (Aug 22, 2007)

I like the look of downtube shifters, but today's shifting is so much better than the 6-7-8 speed indexing of the past. If I do a retro/modern build with Campy I will use friction, but for Shimano I see that trisports.com has 10speed down tube shifters.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

links0311 said:


> Nashbar has 9 speed indexed DA shifters that look awesome. Would it be possible to run these 9 speed shifters for a 7 speed bike?
> 
> -Links




with it shifting well? in friction mode, yes. in index mode, not so much


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*They wouldn't work in clicks.*



links0311 said:


> Nashbar has 9 speed indexed DA shifters that look awesome. Would it be possible to run these 9 speed shifters for a 7 speed bike?
> 
> -Links


The spacing of 9 speed cogs is slightly less than 8 speeds and below. That's why a nine speed chain is slightly narrower than the standard chain that works with anything up to 8 speeds.

Each click on a 9 speed shifter wouldn't quite synchronise with the next cog on a 7 speed cluster. You might make it across two or three cogs, but the chain would skip on the fourth or fifth. Why not look for NOS 7 speed clickers? They're probably out there somewhere.


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## difinity (Mar 24, 2008)

I've got downtube (campy 1980's on Vitus), narrow 3T bars, about 8-10" from hoods. still going 25 yrs later. tends to slip a bit on steep uphill climbs - mostly with bb flex though.
Replaced two years ago with a 2007 Giant TCR-c1 with ultegra integrated brake/shifters. Much easier to use in tough country. prolly' wont last as long though.
If you have a classic frame, get friction. If not, use ultegra or duraAce sis.
cheers


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## macalu (Jan 16, 2003)

*Friction all the way.*

I've been using friction exclusively for about five years.

I've used both Shimano retro friction and Campy pure friction and prefer the Campy.

I've got Nuovo Record on one bike. Very nice and pretty common on Ebay.

I've got 'paddles' on a couple bikes: Victory and Triomphe, basically the same. I really like those.

I like that I can use with 7 or 8 cogs, and switch between Campy and Shimano hubs and cogsets, or use any freewheel with my 7 speed bike.

Maybe they don't last forever, but they've lasted me a long time and been maintenence free, and no need to fine tune the rear der.

Just me opinion.


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## shinsplints (Oct 24, 2007)

I'm in the midst of planning an upgrade to an old 6-sp bike with Shimano Light Action D/T shifters. I'd like to upgrade to 8-speed so I'm wondering if I need to upgrade the shifters. It sounds like if I run it in friction, I'll be with the current LA shifters; if I want to use indexed shifting though, I'd have to find some 8-sp shifters. Is this correct?


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## tube_ee (Aug 25, 2003)

*Yeah... sort of.*



shinsplints said:


> I'm in the midst of planning an upgrade to an old 6-sp bike with Shimano Light Action D/T shifters. I'd like to upgrade to 8-speed so I'm wondering if I need to upgrade the shifters. It sounds like if I run it in friction, I'll be with the current LA shifters; if I want to use indexed shifting though, I'd have to find some 8-sp shifters. Is this correct?


I'm currently indexing my MTB using 7-speed Deore XT thumbshifters, a 9-speed XTR RD, and an 8-speed Performance-brand cassette. Shifts just fine. 7 and 8 speed Shimano clusters used cog spacings that are so close that they floating upper pulley in a Shimano RD will cover the minimal difference. 7-speed shifters have a "ghost" click. It's really overtravel built into the shifter on the 1st gear side, I assume to allow for a forced downshift under load... forcing the RD to move a bit more inboard, to drive the chain up onto the first cog. Whyever they did it, you can use it to index an 8-speed cluster with a 7-speed shifter. You just set the system up so that the limit screws position the derailleur over the first cog when the shifter is in the overtravel position. So then the "first" click is over cog 2, and so on up the gears. Works great. 

With a little fiddling, you can preserve about half of the shifter's overshift capability, so that you can still make a "bailout" shift to low gear under load. Which you shouldn't do, BTW. I've blown up a derailleur that way. It's why I stopped using GripShift, even though they are, ergonomically, my favorite flat-bar shifters. Wrapping the cable around a large-diameter round barrel, with the direction of pull the same as the strongest direction of your wrist, means that the derailleur WILL obey the shifter. You can even shift while honking out of the saddle, pulling back on the bars. You'll always get the shift... until you don't, and your derailleur explodes. Me, I'd rather blow a shift and have to walk up the hill than destroy a 100+ dollar part.

The easiest solution, especially if you're buying parts anyway, is to just buy the correct shifter and be done with it. But if you've got a 7-speed lever on hand, you can use it. Note, however, when buying parts: Don't use 8-speed Dura-Ace shifters... they won't work. Form 6-speed through 8-speed, Shimano in their infinite wisdom used a different "actuation ratio", or cable travel / dreailleur movement ratio, on Dura-Ace RDs than they used on everything else. So pre-9-speed DA derailleurs will only index correctly with 6-8 speed DA shifters, and vice-versa. Cog spacing was the same, it was the derailleurs that were different. Just like the Shimano MTB/road front derailler split, nobody can explain why they did it that way, but they did. Your Light Action RD uses the sae ratio that everything else does, right up to modern 10 speed. You could even use it in an otherwise 10-speed DA drivetrain, and it'd index. Why anyone would actually *do* that is beyond me, but you could, and it'd work.

--Shannon


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## Gene Kahn (Jan 17, 2008)

*I'm Not Alone!*

I'M NOT ALONE! Read only 1/3 thru all the chat about downtube shifters. Ha, so I am not
the dinosua all the carbon fibre boys tell me with my 20 yr old Marinoni frame and Campy gear.

Miss the instant shifting on my mtn bike on the grips, but then this bike is so
light & nimble, I hardly shift that much. I do have to "test" if I am in gear okay, with a quick back pedal to hear if the chain chatters. I think of it like using old WordPerfect
DOS instead of MSWord/Windows. Quirky, but simple and charming. 

Gene


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

last year I rode with Suntour friction bar end shifters with a 10 speed cassette using a ultegra rear deraileur. The shifter won't actuate the whole range so you have to choose what 9 cogs you need.

I found that campy cassettes work best with index shifting. Both Campy and Shimano systems work great with the indexing levers, but once you replace those levers with friction lever, then you really get a good feel for how they work.

Shimano cassettes have special teeth on the cogs that picks up the chain so it can switch from cog to cog. It works great, but if you are a little off those teeth will partially engage cause the chain to skip. I got better perfomance by replacing the top floating pulley with another bottom pulley. The reason this works is because to shift with friction levers, you have to over shift to get the chain to shift to the cog you want, then you have to center it after it shifts. When you use friction lever for a long time this action become quite natural. Shimano ensures the chain is centered after the shift by employing a pulley with float (ceramic g-pulley). with friction levers the float becomes a redundant source of error since the over shift is in your wrist. 

Campy cassettes are designed so when you shift the chain it is channeled through the cogs. This seems to work best. (Also you with notice that campy deraileurs do not have that floating pulley). 

In my opinion the best shifting cassettes are the ones that have the old Shimano twist tooth cogs. When you shift on new Shimano cassettes, you have to wait for the chain to get picked up by those pickup teeth. when you shifted with the twist tooth, the chain you move immediately. plus those twist tooth cassettes lasted a lot longer. I think I counted 3 teeth on a typical cog that does the shifting. For example take 18 tooth cog, if only 3 teeth are doing all the shifting, getting all the use, then that cassette is going to wear a lot faster than a 18 tooth cog that all 18 can shift the chain. However you can shift under a lot more pressure with those pickup teeth.

I think people who grew up riding with friction shifting have an advantage on people that didn't. One of the obvious differences you will notice are people who grew up with friction, don't shift while they are out of the saddle going up a hill. Not only do you cause risk bending teeth on you cassette, but it's not efficient because you do not preserve your momentum . . . (Also the skill of preserving momentum can be learned by riding a fixed gear, but this is another subject) . . . A person who is familiar with friction shifting will already in advance have in his mind what gear he needs to be in before he gets into the hill. While people who never knew friction just fly into a hill, and when it gets to hard they will shift no matter what condition. The shifting systems today will allow this to happen, where before with friction we all learned our lessons. 

It is a crucial skill, to be able to look down the road and determine what gear you will have to be in when you get there, relative to the one you are in at that time. 

Index shifting with always out perform friction. The question is by how much? For me the only advantage is in a race where I might have to react to a break away attempt, or in a sprint.


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## gng207 (Sep 20, 2006)

*silent killer*

Silently shifting a whole stack of gears while ripping by a carbon fiber mounted weener dude the other day reminded me why friction rocks! Setup:Superbe Pro shifters and front derailleur, Dura Ace 10spd rear derailleur, Simplex 99 cranks, Sachs 7 spd straight block freewheel and Sram 8spd chain.


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## Gene Kahn (Jan 17, 2008)

STICK SHIFT -vs- AUTOMATIC. Your long skreed on friction shifting reminded me of growing up when you had to learn to shift, yes back in the 50's Automatic tranny was
still an option! So it is a skill you never forget, much like the way you talk about
the finesse required to shift an older bike. I actually leared to drive long before I
leaned to ride a bike. The former I take for granted, the latter I still find a thrill 40 years
later. 
bye

Gener


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