# Sagan vs. Goss for green



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

after Goss' relegation the race for green is basically green. I disagree with judges decision to dock Goss 30 points. He moved from line but it wasn't a huge move, something that often happens in sprints, and I think he would have prevailed against Sagan anyways.

They could have reversed the order of finish, but docking him 30 points is excessive, in my opinion. Sagan was a favorite to get green in Paris anyways, but it would have been interesting to see if Goss can challenge him, and now we won't see much of competition as it's over.


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## joep721 (May 4, 2009)

Wow, that's a bit excessive. 30 pts? When I stopped watching today's stage, it said that they switched positions - Sagan moved up one, Goss down one. I thought that was extremely fair (once the judges rules Goss moved over). Well, that pretty much, IMHO, seals up two jerseys.


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## OhSnap (Jun 21, 2012)

He clearly felt him coming and moved into him, Sagan broke stride and it hurt him. But I am more than a fan of Sagan so maybe I am a little colored in my opinion.


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## OhSnap (Jun 21, 2012)

The rules say that if you move out of line you are penalized to the back of the group and that is why it cost him 30.


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## Schlitzer (Jun 21, 2012)

Sagan is a really talented, winning, fast, crafty, professional cyclist and wheel sucker. Goss altered his line marginally, but did alter it. The penalty was over reaching by docking 30 pts versus reversing order, in my opinion. It didn't appear to be intentional, but when you're a wheel sucker and a sprinter starts hammering on it, the line will likely change. Sagan's really good, but I do not like his style at all. 

Great finish by Dave though. Sky is tough.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

OhSnap said:


> The rules say that if you move out of line you are penalized to the back of the group and that is why it cost him 30.


I have seen worse, much worse line changes in TdF sprints that went unchallenged and unpunished. In almost every sprint there is bound to be some movement, and this wasn't out of the ordinary. Sagan wasn't going to get that sprint anyways, he never managed to really get out of Goss' draft despite trying hard. 

But my biggest problem is that this decision alone (and questionable at that) puts green out of reach for Goss. It is similar to how Cav was relegated a few years back (maybe Renshaw incident?) and that cost him green, I think it may have been the year Hushovd won it. 

Sagan was a clear favorite to win green, but at least there was some chance that Goss will try to go for it over the remaining part - now that green and yellow are basically decided, the tour gets even more boring.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

i guess when you ask 30 people what they saw you're going to get 30 different views. For me i saw that he was spooling up his turbo legs (Sagan) and was pulling out of Goss' draft and coming up along side him when Goss veered over. in the slo-mo you see that Sagan stopped his pedaling and had to take some avoidance maneuver to avoid contact with Goss.

I do agree that they should have inverted the results...

For the armchair racers at home we can just tabulate the scores based on their finish being inverted and seeing how close they are at the end of the tour and see if that 30 points really did hurt Goss or not.


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## OhSnap (Jun 21, 2012)

55x11 said:


> I have seen worse, much worse line changes in TdF sprints that went unchallenged and unpunished. In almost every sprint there is bound to be some movement, and this wasn't out of the ordinary. Sagan wasn't going to get that sprint anyways, he never managed to really get out of Goss' draft despite trying hard.
> 
> But my biggest problem is that this decision alone (and questionable at that) puts green out of reach for Goss. It is similar to how Cav was relegated a few years back (maybe Renshaw incident?) and that cost him green, I think it may have been the year Hushovd won it.
> 
> Sagan was a clear favorite to win green, but at least there was some chance that Goss will try to go for it over the remaining part - now that green and yellow are basically decided, the tour gets even more boring.


I agree with a lot of what you say and admit that I am Sagan bias but I really think he tried to throw him off and deserved the change. The TDF judges have never been real consistant and I think I remember what you are talking about with Cav.

It does make it more boring, but I was truly worried that Liquigas' fatal attempt to help Nibali would cost Sagan. Liquigas should have reeled the break in when Goss, Cavendish and Griepel were dropped and Sagan would have cruised to the win.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Goss' move was pretty violent. So it wasn't so much that he moved over a meter. I would have preferred switching sprint positions if that was an option, but it was goss that made an unforced error in changing his line. Bummer, cause there is one more competition that will become a snooze fest.


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## Wolfman (Jun 15, 2005)

To 55x11's point, we have seen more dramatic lane changes in past sprints that went unchanged, *but* this was a 2-up sprint (not a group sprint) for (ultimately) the green jersey. Green jersey winners outsprint others to the line, they don't win by blocking like opportunistic bunch sprinters do on occassion.

It was a line deviation, and in my opinion, Goss was right to get relegated not only because he moved left, but also in part because he violated the spirit of the points leader jersey.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Schlitzer said:


> Sagan is a really talented, winning, fast, crafty, professional cyclist and wheel sucker. Goss altered his line marginally, but did alter it. The penalty was over reaching by docking 30 pts versus reversing order, in my opinion. It didn't appear to be intentional, but when you're a wheel sucker and a sprinter starts hammering on it, the line will likely change. Sagan's really good, but I do not like his style at all.
> 
> Great finish by Dave though. Sky is tough.


I have no clue what in the world you're watching to come to that conclusion about Sagan.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

The rule here is, " dont shoot yourself in the foot".
Goss knows better than to pull that in a 2 up sprint, c'mon.


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

It would seem that a world class sprinter/professional cyclist would be able to ride his bike in a straight line (which is the shortest and fastest path to the finish anyway). Not sure whether he did it intentionally, by reflex, or accidentally, but that really doesn't matter, he should be held accountable for holding his line. Granted, we've all seen worse.

I agree with the decsion to relegate him and dock him points, but I think 30 points is excessive. Had I been on the jury, I would have voted for relegation and forfeiting all points Goss won (or would have won) at the finish of today's stage. That's still pretty substantial and trakes him from gaining 1 point over Sagan to losing a bunch but still leaving green within reach. Of course, MHO and $1.50 will get you a Coke and not much else.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

OhSnap said:


> The rules say that if you move out of line you are penalized to the back of the group and that is why it cost him 30.


 It's not really. The "group" was ruled to be 2 people, Goss and Sagan. He was relegated to the position behind Sagan. The 30 pts. was a separate punishment that basically throws Goss' chance at winning green out the window. It really puts the contest for that jersey to sleep for the rest of the Tour.


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## OhSnap (Jun 21, 2012)

davidka said:


> It's not really. The "group" was ruled to be 2 people, Goss and Sagan. He was relegated to the position behind Sagan. The 30 pts. was a separate punishment that basically throws Goss' chance at winning green out the window. It really puts the contest for that jersey to sleep for the rest of the Tour.


You re correct, I had not read that when I first posted.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

JohnHenry said:


> The rule here is, " dont shoot yourself in the foot".
> Goss knows better than to pull that in a 2 up sprint, c'mon.


That's what I was thinking. Maybe the long day got to him.


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## gusmahler (Apr 7, 2012)

foofighter said:


> For the armchair racers at home we can just tabulate the scores based on their finish being inverted and seeing how close they are at the end of the tour and see if that 30 points really did hurt Goss or not.


Except you can't. The fact that Goss can't win green might mean he doesn't try at the intermediates anymore. (That's what Cav did today, at least). Though, obviously, Goss will still be trying for stage wins.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

The line deviated and he should have been relegated. 30 points is absurd, though. 

Green jersey competition is over.


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## euro-trash (May 1, 2004)

JohnHenry said:


> The rule here is, " dont shoot yourself in the foot".
> Goss knows better than to pull that in a 2 up sprint, c'mon.


Well said. It was intentional, and it impacted the sprint. To those saying, "he only moved over a meter", think about it: when someone moves one foot laterally, you call them a sketchy rider. A 2 foot move is a lot, and a quick, full meter move can throw anyone to the ground--particularly when it's their hip and your bars. 

The inversion of the results was correct (relegation to the back of the group of two), and a penalty was in order. That said, 30 points is too much. A 5-10 point reduction would be enough, and would keep the Green Jersey fight alive. I also agree with the inconsistency of the rulings, but, as we've seen with this forum, if you ask 10 people, you get 10 opinions. Unless you have the same judges every time, you'll get different results. Even then, you have all kinds of intangible, situational variables that are tough to articulate or quantify that impact a judge's decision.


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

thechriswebb said:


> The line deviated and he should have been relegated. 30 points is absurd, though.
> 
> Green jersey competition is over.


I agree that 30 points is excessive though I think some punitive measure is needed to discourage it going forward. That is, Goss should have lost more points than he gained (1 point max) for chopping Sagan off. Simply relegating him behind Goss and allowing him to keep the 7th place points would not do it.


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

55x11 said:


> I have seen worse, much worse line changes in TdF sprints that went unchallenged and unpunished ... the tour gets even more boring.


Exactly :thumbsup: 

This tour is basically over. I didn't even get up at 3:55 a.m. this morning to watch. Instead I opted to check out the prime time coverage at 6:00 p.m. yuk. Is every prime time coverage loaded up with cut away to commentary/analysis/commercials?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

When you get relegated they send you to the back of the bunch. That's 30 points worth. That is the rule, Goss's move was obvious. Goss isn't going to win green anyhow. Sagan will get points on stages where the sprinters are in the autobus. If the run in is hard, Sagan can win against them. He only lacks the classic bunch sprint turn over. He is the ideal rider to dominate this event for years.


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## erj549 (Jul 26, 2008)

atpjunkie said:


> When you get relegated they send you to the back of the bunch. That's 30 points worth. That is the rule, Goss's move was obvious. Goss isn't going to win green anyhow. Sagan will get points on stages where the sprinters are in the autobus. If the run in is hard, Sagan can win against them. He only lacks the classic bunch sprint turn over. He is the ideal rider to dominate this event for years.


But didn't you get the memo that he's a talentless, showboating wheelsucker? He clearly has nothing going for him and will soon be found only at Wednesday night Cat 4 criteriums...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*sprinter and wheelsucker*



erj549 said:


> But didn't you get the memo that he's a talentless, showboating wheelsucker? He clearly has nothing going for him and will soon be found only at Wednesday night Cat 4 criteriums...


are interchangeable are they not? Isn't that the nature of what they do?

when I see folks write such I too roll my eyes "must be new"

Sagan doesn't have the pure sprinter kick, but neither did Zabel. I think Sagan could eclipse Erik's green jersey record


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> are interchangeable are they not? Isn't that the nature of what they do?
> 
> when I see folks write such I too roll my eyes "must be new"
> 
> Sagan doesn't have the pure sprinter kick, but neither did Zabel. I think Sagan could eclipse Erik's green jersey record


Agreed. Sagan very well could. Which is one more reason why he didn't need 30-point gift from the judges. 
He was already running away with the green and today is the proof.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*it's not a gift*



55x11 said:


> Agreed. Sagan very well could. Which is one more reason why he didn't need 30-point gift from the judges.
> He was already running away with the green and today is the proof.


it's just the rules

Cavendish had his run for the green (when he was leading if memory serves me right) ended by a similar relegation

you get relegated to last place in your bunch, if you cross with 3 it's less of a deal, if you cross with 90 you are hosed

if you want to win the Green Jersey hold your line

in the long run this keeps sprinters safer


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Schlitzer said:


> Sagan is a really talented, winning, fast, crafty, professional cyclist and wheel sucker. Goss altered his line marginally, but did alter it. The penalty was over reaching by docking 30 pts versus reversing order, in my opinion. It didn't appear to be intentional, but when you're a wheel sucker and a sprinter starts hammering on it, the line will likely change. Sagan's really good, but I do not like his style at all.
> 
> Great finish by Dave though. Sky is tough.


Wow! I just looked up wheel sucking and realized if I had known what it is, I could have won a ton more sprints in my "racing career." Damn, those pro sprinters know all the tricks.


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## bruce_wayne (Apr 30, 2010)

30 points seems excessive. Jury had to know they were just about killing Goss chances for green, and we all saw how he was chipping into Sagan's lead and making an effort to turn it into a two-man battle (possibly to Champs-Elysee?). Maybe this was jury's way of sending a message to riders about first week crashes which some attribute to riders' disregard for safety and throwing all caution to the wind to get the stage win?


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

I like Sagan, but I would've loved to see him vs Cav all the way to Paris. Cav needs to go to a sprinter team next year.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

SFTifoso said:


> I like Sagan, but I would've loved to see him vs Cav all the way to Paris. Cav needs to go to a sprinter team next year.


They probably will be more of a sprinter team next year. This year's race seemed custom made for Wiggins so they went all in behind him. I doubt it will be like that next year. 

Or maybe they'll back Froome....


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## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

what I liked least was Goss interview, where he just would not own up to the fact that it was a notably bad move on his part, and really, all his fault. 

I agree that 30 pts was too much.

However, there's no question that it was a bad move on his part. He stated it didn't matter if it was more one guys fault than another, or if there was acting going on. BS. It was one guys fault, entirely, and the "acting" was genuine, as it is in any sprint where someone is cut off and points to the guy who cut him off. 

I agree, again, the penalty was too harsh, and the offense was not terrible. It was clear, however. And Goss should have just said that he screwed up and got caught. Instead, he spoke of being a victim of a misperception and tried to deflect blame.


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## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

55x11 said:


> after Goss' relegation the race for green is basically green. I disagree with judges decision to dock Goss 30 points. He moved from line but it wasn't a huge move, something that often happens in sprints, and I think he would have prevailed against Sagan anyways.
> 
> They could have reversed the order of finish, but docking him 30 points is excessive, in my opinion. Sagan was a favorite to get green in Paris anyways, but it would have been interesting to see if Goss can challenge him, and now we won't see much of competition as it's over.



It seemed clear that Goss moved from his line but I fully expected nothing would happen. I was a quite surprised when I later found out the judges docked Goss 30 points.


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

Sagan is gonna win the green by more than 30 points over Goss anyways.


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## ulrichw (Oct 16, 2009)

SFTifoso said:


> Sagan is gonna win the green by more than 30 points over Goss anyways.


Especially now that he's stopped trying - bit of a shame.

Anybody know if the race jury had an option to dock something less than 30 points as a penalty?


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

After today's finish, it's a done deal.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*no they did not*



ulrichw said:


> Especially now that he's stopped trying - bit of a shame.
> 
> Anybody know if the race jury had an option to dock something less than 30 points as a penalty?


when you get relegated for unsafe sprinting you wind up getting last in the bunch you crossed with. If they had a gap on the rest of the peloton he'd have lost 1 place. Because it was a bunch finish he loses X amount of spots and therefore points. That's the rules.


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## ulrichw (Oct 16, 2009)

atpjunkie said:


> when you get relegated for unsafe sprinting you wind up getting last in the bunch you crossed with. If they had a gap on the rest of the peloton he'd have lost 1 place. Because it was a bunch finish he loses X amount of spots and therefore points. That's the rules.


Well, you're not exactly correct. He in fact only lost one place:


> The commissaires agreed with the young Slovak's interpretation of events and duly awarded him sixth place ahead of Goss. Indeed, Goss would have been relegated lower than seventh place had the judges not ruled that there was a one-second gap between the pair and the remainder of the peloton.


The race jury has the option of applying additional penalties, and did so in this case:


> The green jersey sits ever more securely on Peter Sagan's shoulders on Friday evening after Matt Goss (Orica-GreenEdge) was docked 30 points when he was adjudged to have impeded the Liquigas-Cannondale rider in the bunch sprint for sixth place on stage 12 of the Tour de France.


Both quotes from:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/goss-docked-30-points-after-sprint-deviation-in-tour-stage-12

I interpret the decision to apply the 30 point penalty as being at least partially motivated by the fact that a one-position relegation wasn't enough punishment for Goss' "crime."

That's why I was wondering if the jury could have assessed a smaller penalty.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*so the jury felt they had a gap*



ulrichw said:


> Well, you're not exactly correct. He in fact only lost one place:
> 
> 
> The race jury has the option of applying additional penalties, and did so in this case:
> ...


I didn't remember if they did or not. They applied extra penalties which yes, they have some discretion involved.
When I saw the 30 point hit I assumed they relegated to the back of the group


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## ulrichw (Oct 16, 2009)

atpjunkie said:


> I didn't remember if they did or not. They applied extra penalties which yes, they have some discretion involved.
> When I saw the 30 point hit I assumed they relegated to the back of the group


Well, I decided to try to research the issue myself, since there were no definitive answers.

From the Tour de France 2012 Regulations:



> ➜ Article 26 Penalties
> The table of penalties in the regulations of the
> UCI rules, is applied in all cases. All sanctions
> and penalties count in the general rankings.
> ...


From the UCI Table of Penalties


> 10. Sprint
> 10.1 Deviating from select line, endagering other riders
> [...]
> 10.1.2 Stage Race
> ...


Since the stage was a medium mountain stage, 30 points were awarded for first place, hence the penalty. (the 200 is 200 swiss francs, I believe).

So it looks like unless there is some kind of blanket rule, they didn't have too much discretion once they decided to penalize him. The rest of the penalty was standard as taken from the UCI rules.


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

ulrichw said:


> Especially now that he's stopped trying - bit of a shame.


Stupid move on Goss's part really. You never know, Sagan could easily be docked 30 points too. Plus I bet the sponsor isn't too happy that he isn't contending intermediate sprint points and stage wins. Oh well, someone with that attitude doesn't deserve to wear any of the leader's jerseys.


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

Schlitzer said:


> Sagan is a really talented, winning, fast, crafty, professional cyclist and wheel sucker.



I lolz out loud when I see a *sprinter* called a wheel sucker.

Now that's rich.


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