# Go Away Lance



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Why doesn't he just go away? I think he has a sick personality just like another #1 in the news today.

Lance Armstrong to feature in ESPN documentary series


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## tfinator (Nov 4, 2009)

duriel said:


> Why doesn't he just go away? I think he has a sick personality just like another #1 in the news today.
> 
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-to-feature-in-espn-documentary-series/


If someone took away a bunch of your money, but you were still a household name and your publicist could get you paid interviews and speaking engagements, would you just go work in a bike shop?

Is the other guy you're taking about coronavirus? 

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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

It wasn't his money, he stole it. #2: No, think of another #1 narcissist in the news.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Well … if one really wants to know how cycling operates, operated in the past and is likely still operating … he would know better than just about anybody.

Love him or hate him, he knows cycling.

There are many, many other dopers that are continuing to make money through announcer gigs, leading teams, promoting products, podcasts, etc. … I don't see anybody telling them to go away, in fact, most still support them even though they all cheated. The most beloved cyclist in history was busted twice (Merckx) and I doubt you would tell him "Why doesn't he just go away!".

It's just LOL … people pick and chose the dopers they want to hate and or celebrate!


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

I really like a lot of ESPN's 30 for 30 shows and I'm looking forward to this one. I don't think they'll sugarcoat anything. 

Wookie is right. Doping has been a big part of the sport in the past and likely still is. If Lance needs to just go away so do dozens or hundreds of others who are guilty as well.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

OK, you like him, I don't.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

Well, no. I don't know him, so I don't have an opinion on whether or not I like him. My post is based on enjoying past 30 for 30 episodes being to varying degrees informative and entertaining.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Don't expect anything new:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/review/lance-review-1273814

At this point, pro cycling's (as it currently is) future is in serious doubt. Some people say that's a good thing. I don't really see what good can come from this documentary. It doesn't sound like it adds anything, and simply tears the scabs off of old wounds.

You want to talk about doping in the current peloton? There are lots of people better informed and less toxic.

Lance doesn't need the money. Lance's ego does need the attention.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I've never met him, I didn't mean to infer I did, if so. I still not ....


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## tfinator (Nov 4, 2009)

duriel said:


> #2: No, think of another #1 narcissist in the news.


Exactly. So he's making some money. Question answered.

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## azpeterb (Jun 1, 2006)

The whole point of 30 for 30 is to provide detailed accounts of major sports stories that took place between 1979 and 2009. Whether we like it or not, the LA story fits the bill. He is arguably the most extreme example of athletic success and public adoration followed by a monumental collapse and being vilified by all...or the most extreme example that I can think of anyway. Certainly his story deserves to be featured on the show.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

THamilton thinks it's a snooze.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

duriel said:


> THamilton thinks it's a snooze.


What does his vanishing twin think?


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

The WEDU video podcast with Hincapie is just so, so good. I hate-watched it once and have been hooked. His commentary on races with George and Co cuts right through the BS and is just good, as one would expect.


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## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

Lance was an inspiration and one of the greatest cyclists there ever was.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

...too bad he's a shameless hypocrite and a sociopath as well. He should run for office.......


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## azpeterb (Jun 1, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> What does his vanishing twin think?


Don’t make Ferengi angry. They’ll mess you up!


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## Rider07 (Feb 25, 2007)

Wookiebiker said:


> Well … if one really wants to know how cycling operates, operated in the past and is likely still operating … he would know better than just about anybody.
> 
> Love him or hate him, he knows cycling.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

mackgoo said:


> Lance was an inspiration and one of the greatest cyclists there ever was.


No he wasn’t. Not at all. He may have inspired some people, but to be great you have to win things. I’d even doubt he was an inspiration to anyone... His legacy is non existent. Gone. You can’t be a great cyclist if you never won anything.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Wookiebiker said:


> Well … if one really wants to know how cycling operates, operated in the past and is likely still operating … he would know better than just about anybody.
> 
> Love him or hate him, he knows cycling.
> 
> ...


People don’t just hate Lance because he was caught doping. They hate him because he deserves it. He has been an awful human being. 

But, yeah, he does know cycling and he is a smart guy. You can’t take those things away from him. 

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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

PBL450 said:


> People don’t just hate Lance because he was caught doping. They hate him because he deserves it. He has been an awful human being.


I recognize this ... and there are too many people that have been caught cheating, and been assholes at the same time to count, that people still love. He threw everybody under the bus to protect himself ... yet, he is FAR from the first to do this.

People pick and chose who they love and hate ... he grated on a lot of people, others still love him. I could turn this political and mention "He who shall not be named" as a perfect example. 

The reality is Lance is polarizing, however, that doesn't make him any less knowledgeable about the sport. The record books don't show it, however he still won 7 TDF's in a row ... something extremely unlikely to EVER happen again as the sheer amount of luck needed to pull this off is an achievement in it's self. 

His World Championship win still stands, as do multiple other wins ... only the results from a specific time period have been taken away.

One thing the United States is great at, probably the only thing we are the best in the world at is ... Building people up into Hero's and near Gods, then tearing them down when we learn they are human or grow tired of them. Nobody on earth does this as well as Americans!


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

Did anyone else went to the mattress with journalists and doping officials like lance? He is not the only cheat or the only a$$hole but he did ask for it.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

jkc said:


> Did anyone else went to the mattress with journalists and doping officials like lance? He is not the only cheat or the only a$$hole but he did ask for it.


I’ve tried to think of some comparable examples from any sport, but I can’t come up with a Lance... 


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

jkc said:


> Did anyone else went to the mattress with journalists and doping officials like lance? He is not the only cheat or the only a$$hole but he did ask for it.


I'd say no.

However, the media has never wanted to go after somebody as much as they did Lance. In other occasions, access was denied allowing them to do so ... China and Russia scandals for example. 

In other cases, the sports protected the players more than cycling did since they want to protect the sport as a whole. Football has no morals, tons of dopers, and lots of criminals. Baseballs biggest home run seasons were mired with PED scandals, however the money generated not only for the sport, but the news networks prevents them from going after players like they did Lance.

Basically ... when it comes to other sports that are more "American" ... you don't bite the hand that feeds you .. and cycling does not feed the sports networks like major American sports do.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

Wookiebiker said:


> I'd say no.
> 
> However, the media has never wanted to go after somebody as much as they did Lance. In other occasions, access was denied allowing them to do so ... China and Russia scandals for example.
> 
> ...


I agree with you generally but other sports not giving themselves black eyes with doping issues isn't just an American thing to do. Operation Puerto uncovered more than just doper cyclists as football (soccer) players from Real Madrid and Barcelona were reportedly regular visitors of Fuentes' clinic. I've no doubt that FIFA would never allow those names to come to light as anybody from either of those teams was a superstar.


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

I seem to remember the Italian press was pretty hard on Pantani and other cyclists of Carrera but they handle it differently. More recently example is Froome and his puffs. FWIW, I would love for the pro ranks to drop the pretense all together. Dope all you want, just don't be a danger during competition.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

dcb said:


> I agree with you generally but other sports not giving themselves black eyes with doping issues isn't just an American thing to do. Operation Puerto uncovered more than just doper cyclists as football (soccer) players from Real Madrid and Barcelona were reportedly regular visitors of Fuentes' clinic. I've no doubt that FIFA would never allow those names to come to light as anybody from either of those teams was a superstar.


Yes, any multi-billion dollar/euro industry is going to protect it's product.

My point was this though ... The press/ESPN/CNNSi/Etc. isn't going to go after any pro football, basketball, baseball player like they will a cyclist because they make ALL of their money off of those sports. In Europe it's Soccer/Futbol. 

You don't destroy the players in those sports because they will limit or eliminate access to your news channel, thus eliminating your revenue.

Cycling is a "Fringe" sport in the U.S. and therefore an easy target for the press. Lance became an icon built up not only by the press, but the people after coming back from cancer ... as I said earlier, Americans love to build people up, then tear them down when they find the flaw. We do it better than any nation on this planet.

Given cycling's "Fringe" status the press had nothing to lose going after him ... the cycling world didn't care about Americans as it's a predominantly Euro sport, and honestly, they loved to see an American fall like that after winning 7 TDF's in a row. It just gave the sport back from them as the U.S. was starting to get more and more pro's into the peloton.

If the #1 soccer/futbol player in the world was American ... by a wide margin and was caught doping, do you not think they would be hammered by not only the American press, but the euro press as well? They are not fond of Americans coming into their sport and dominating. I'm guessing they would receive Lance like treatment.


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

The only fanboys I know of are on the interweb. Out of a hundred more people in my club, most don't care or hold him in contempt (like me). No one has came out of the closet yet. Also I cannot be the only one that held contempt for him when he was winning, even during the first win. I hate a fairy tale and there was plenty stories going around before that and what a$$ he is.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

Wookiebiker said:


> Yes, any multi-billion dollar/euro industry is going to protect it's product.
> 
> My point was this though ... The press/ESPN/CNNSi/Etc. isn't going to go after any pro football, basketball, baseball player like they will a cyclist because they make ALL of their money off of those sports. In Europe it's Soccer/Futbol.


Yes, I see your point now.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

jkc said:


> The only fanboys I know of are on the interweb. Out of a hundred more people in my club, most don't care or hold him in contempt (like me). No one has came out of the closet yet. Also I cannot be the only one that held contempt for him when he was winning, even during the first win. I hate a fairy tale and there was plenty stories going around before that and what a$$ he is.


I think that most people just don't care about pro cycling even if they are cyclists so their feelings about LA aren't that strong either way. It's been a long, long time since LA came up in a conversation I've had with any cyclist I know.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Wookiebiker said:


> Yes, any multi-billion dollar/euro industry is going to protect it's product.
> 
> My point was this though ... The press/ESPN/CNNSi/Etc. isn't going to go after any pro football, basketball, baseball player like they will a cyclist because they make ALL of their money off of those sports. In Europe it's Soccer/Futbol.
> 
> ...


Yes and no...Big US sports unions have ensured players are insulated from doping exposure problems. Still, Baseball has had sacred cows pursued, and big money home run kings. I’m not sure tearing down disgraced icons is uniquely a USA thing... We may be a little more excitable but I think it’s a minor matter of degrees. The major journalist hounding Lance was a Brit. 

I think if Lance wasn’t an awful human being that was a d*ck and ruined people’s lives he would still have every record even if everyone knew he was a doper. He never technically got caught after all. If he was just likeable... no wait, if he was just not so hateable... You wanna be a big bully asshat? You will be taken down with glee. Anywhere and in any sport. Lance had a unique blend of awful swirling around him, all of it his own creation. He went all in on sh*t head bully and got both barrels on the other side of his cheating. In the immortal words of OJ Simpson, “win by the blitz, lose by the blitz.” Lance is by no means stupid, he knew he was skating on thin ice all along. I’d suspect he has a narcissistic personality disorder, at least in the way his first wife talks about him in interviews. 

Is he a great cyclist compared to other great cyclists? No. The depths at which he cheated, the bullying, the mean spirit.... But just on the bike? Was he a great bicycle racer? 

His is a cautionary tale. You may be wise to be nice when you are cheating like hell. It might just dictate the course of history as your legacy goes. 


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

What I found so objectionable about Lance wasn't the fact that he was doping, because everyone was. Everyone who ever stood on the podium with him got caught sooner or later. He wasn't just some guy shooting up EPO in his hotel room. He had a systematic program going, involving his whole team and a medical team. I think the reason he was the best back then was he that was the best doper. Without the stuff, I don't think he'd have ever made it to the TDF podium, much less won it 7 times. 

That said, where's the enforcement in other sports? You don't see any MBL, NBA or NFL players get tested, much less get sanctioned. Same with European soccer, which is orders of magnitudes bigger than cycling over there. And given how that stuff improves performance, you know it has to go on. So why not just let pro cyclists dope away?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

pmf said:


> What I found so objectionable about Lance wasn't the fact that he was doping, because everyone was. Everyone who ever stood on the podium with him got caught sooner or later. He wasn't just some guy shooting up EPO in his hotel room. He had a systematic program going, involving his whole team and a medical team. I think the reason he was the best back then was he that was the best doper. Without the stuff, I don't think he'd have ever made it to the TDF podium, much less won it 7 times.
> 
> That said, where's the enforcement in other sports? You don't see any MBL, NBA or NFL players get tested, much less get sanctioned. Same with European soccer, which is orders of magnitudes bigger than cycling over there. And given how that stuff improves performance, you know it has to go on. So why not just let pro cyclists dope away?


Ferrari was Frankenstein and he was the monster. And yes, he won because of the drugs. 


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

PBL450 said:


> Ferrari was Frankenstein and he was the monster. And yes, he won because of the drugs.


Yeah, I saw the documentary too.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

PBL450 said:


> I’ve tried to think of some comparable examples from any sport, but I can’t come up with a Lance...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Shoeless Joe Jackson?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Shoeless Joe Jackson?


He never actually cheated and by all accounts he was a very nice, quiet guy? 


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

Here's 25 to choose from The 25 Worst People in Sports and this is another list of 50, The 50 Dirtiest Athletes in Sports History. Actually it's 24 & 49 to choose from because he graced both list.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

jkc said:


> Here's 25 to choose from The 25 Worst People in Sports and this is another list of 50, The 50 Dirtiest Athletes in Sports History. Actually it's 24 & 49 to choose from because he graced both list.


Great link!! 


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

pmf said:


> What I found so objectionable about Lance wasn't the fact that he was doping, because everyone was. Everyone who ever stood on the podium with him got caught sooner or later. He wasn't just some guy shooting up EPO in his hotel room. He had a systematic program going, involving his whole team and a medical team. I think the reason he was the best back then was he that was the best doper. Without the stuff, I don't think he'd have ever made it to the TDF podium, much less won it 7 times.
> 
> That said, where's the enforcement in other sports? You don't see any MBL, NBA or NFL players get tested, much less get sanctioned. Same with European soccer, which is orders of magnitudes bigger than cycling over there. And given how that stuff improves performance, you know it has to go on. So why not just let pro cyclists dope away?


Don't forget his early years when he was dead last at San Sebastian. Also, saw him in person suffer greatly as basically the Lanterne Rouge at the Montreal World Cup race. Then again, saw him podium as a stagiare in a Maine crit years ago. So, he definitely was an athletic talent, but nowhere near where he rose to with his systematic doping program. Most alarming was the way he treated others in the pro peloton or what he did to Greg Lemond.


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## davidwstahl (Mar 31, 2013)

I have to laugh every time I see a thread like this. This is professional sports and PEDs are good for the sport. Baseball was extremely popular and fun to watch when Sammy Sousa was hitting all those home runs and cycling was extremely popular and fun to watch when Lance was dominating. Professional athletes are paid to win, they are not paid for their personalities. There is too much money in professional sports not to try to find an edge. My guess is PEDs are still pervasive in most sports. And if you think the sponsors and team management didn't know about it, you are fooling yourself. It would be best if they didn't do any testing and let us watch athletes perform at levels we couldn't imagine. In the end, professional sports is entertainment and nothing else.


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

Anyone here seriously believe doping is the reason why Lance Armstrong is vilified?


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## aminkman (May 12, 2008)

davidwstahl said:


> I have to laugh every time I see a thread like this. This is professional sports and PEDs are good for the sport. Baseball was extremely popular and fun to watch when Sammy Sousa was hitting all those home runs and cycling was extremely popular and fun to watch when Lance was dominating. Professional athletes are paid to win, they are not paid for their personalities. There is too much money in professional sports not to try to find an edge. My guess is PEDs are still pervasive in most sports. And if you think the sponsors and team management didn't know about it, you are fooling yourself. It would be best if they didn't do any testing and let us watch athletes perform at levels we couldn't imagine. In the end, professional sports is entertainment and nothing else.


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## aminkman (May 12, 2008)

^^This^^


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

That's one reason. Through his Lance Armstrong Foundation, he falsely led many cancer sufferers to believe that there was "more hope" to their cure than was true, while it was his doping which brought him to the top of the sport post-cancer.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

jkc said:


> Anyone here seriously believe doping is the reason why Lance Armstrong is vilified?


Exactly. If he wasn’t the worst person, wait, I forgot John Lennon who is FAR, FAR worse as a human being, then all of his records would still be standing. He got rolled over on he didn’t get caught. He gave up and confessed. 

As for, “let them dope,” ummm no. Isn’t that illegal? So what? They get an exemption for breaking the law? No. Keep hunting them and keep nailing them. I’d advocate that you get one ban of a year and a second pop is life. Allowing doping is insane. It will seep into every level of the sport, wait, it already has? Just say no to drugs. 


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

duriel said:


> It wasn't his money, he stole it. #2: No, think of another #1 narcissist in the news.


Steal it? no, it was stolen from him! Look, the whole peloton was cheating back then, Lance wasn't doing anything that all the others were doing. Think about this, in any sport where a winner is disqualified for some reason, the second place person becomes the winner, that didn't happen for those 7 TDF races, NO ONE WON! did you ever consider for one moment why? Because had UCI decided to take the second place winner and make him the winner than Lance would have opened the can of worms and insisted that everyone be drugged tested, and the UCI did not want to see that can opened, that's why! 

There was even video proof of riders going into vans parked at strategic locations along the race track, and the riders would go in and be gone for a couple of minutes and come out and continue the race, what were they doing in those vans? getting a shot, that's what they were doing, not only was there video evidence of that but a few of the riders admitted to it, but UCI turned a blind eye to it all...to all of it, except for Lance, so why did they pick on Lance for? Because he was damn Yankee that came along and spoiled their little sport, no American was going to win their love and joy sport 7 times in a row. What do you think would happen if say the US allowed annual playoffs in basketball that involved ALL the countries that had a basketball team, and lets say that the French basketball team beat the best of the US teams 7 years in a row, I guarantee you the refs would never allow that to happen, there would be bad calls made etc to make sure the US kept their pride and joy game in tact, sure one or maybe two finals lost to the French might be tolerable, but not 7.

Now consider this, assume that those 7 races that Lance won that ALL the riders, including Lance were clean, what do you think the results would have been? The same, Lance would have won all 7 of those times. So all the duping did was level the playing field.

So no, UCI stole the wins from Lance.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

No. He never would have won clean. I watched him race when he was clean, before the cancer, before the programme.

He’ll always have his Trek fanboys though.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

GKSki said:


> No. He never would have won clean. I watched him race when he was clean, before the cancer, before the programme.


If you think he was clean before the "Program" you are fooling yourself. He had been a pro cyclist for years, during a time when EPO was undetectable, and was so widespread in the Peloton ... I'm guessing not a single rider was clean ... going before his 93 World Championship win.


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

^ He didn't lose half of his manhood by chance


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

I was speaking of his days with Subaru-Montgomery and the early Motorola days. Then again, he was with Eddy B. back with Subaru and even though a teenager, who knows.


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

GKSki said:


> I was speaking of his days with Subaru-Montgomery and the early Motorola days. Then again, he was with Eddy B. back with Subaru and even though a teenager, who knows.





GKSki said:


> I was speaking of his days with Subaru-Montgomery and the early Motorola days. Then again, he was with Eddy B. back with Subaru and even though a teenager, who knows.


And before as a junior .








Dope And Glory


Were American Athletes Given Performance-Enhancing Drugs




www.cbsnews.com


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

I find it hard to believe a 17 year old cannot determine if there's nothing wrong being pumped with pills and injections. Also by that time everyone knew what kind of athlete Carmichael was and were coaching.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Moderators Note

So we have reached the inevitiable insults level these always seem to end up at. Cleaned up and locked.


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