# FTP and Power for Different Race Categories?



## Rackerman

I've just recently started training with Power (Powertap G3) and frankly, I love it. I wish I'd done it earlier as the data that I get is just awesome.

But with that data comes questions around what is actually a good FTP power range to have and really, what are some guys (And ladies) actually pushing out there? I know that weight comes into play here as well so I would imagine that needs to be stated? Or is that factored into the FTP Analysis that I did last fall with a coach? (I have an email out to get clarification on that...)

I'm looking to do some Canadian Entry level masters (Over 40) races and I'm curious as to what kind of FTP is out there for racers already competing in this class and higher (Faster) classes?

I'm 190lbs now, down from 240lbs in early 2013 and still dropping and my FTP was tested at 220 at the end of last season. Which was up significantly from 170 at the start of the season.

Feedback would be appreciated and hopefully this won't get into a discussion about proper FTP testing!!! There is enough about that out there and we'll just "Assume" that everyone posting has done proper FTP testing to keep it simple.


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## Srode

Now that you have invested in a power meter, you will have many many questions about how to use it and interpret the information - you should buy the book "training and racing with a power meter". It has everything you will ever want to know about testing, training, how to find opportunities for improvement and targeted training plans for those flat spots in your power curve. You should also download and use goldencheetah V3 for analysis - freeware which and it is very very helpful. After you read some from the book, it will make a bunch of sense, before reading perhaps not so much sense, but save your rides to it regardless as you will want all your information for your curve.


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## mikerp

Concur, there are 2 ways of doing it, buy the book (read and digest it) determine what need to work for your goal, or hire a coach to do the same.


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## Rackerman

Agreed. I have the book an I'm reading through it. Tough read but getting easier. What I'm trying to get is an understanding of what kind of power is actually needed to race? I've only always looked at what speeds I could maintain and what the race group ride averages were. I'm looking for a more in depth idea now and starting with power requirements and then I'll also look at V02max as I know this will play in as well.


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## stevesbike

the short answer is to have a look at a chart made by Andy Coggan some years ago (a link to it is below). The long answer is that as a starting racer your main challenge will be ability to recover from changes in pace during a race, especially if it's a crit. Novice racers often think the back of a pack is the easier place to be (it's not, the front is). Accelerations out of corners requires bursts above ftp especially further back in the pack so don't neglect intervals as part of your training. Best thing to do is to find a weekly practice race to get used to speed work and to view your first races as primarily a learning experience.

Just How Good Are These Guys? | Cycling Tips


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## Rackerman

Stevesbike, that link is very useful to me and hopefully to others browsing this thread. Do you know if the same type of table exists for V02 Max? I hate to cut a forum short as discussion is great but that table really gives me a great idea of where I stand and as long as any reader has gone through the proper procedures in getting their FTP tested and established then it should prove pretty invaluable to them as well.

I look forward to continuing to read the training with power book and to also spend some time in evaluating and understanding the V02 max data which should be one of the other critical metrics to monitor improvements in. I like the V02 metric too as simply losing weight continues to improve the results... Much like looking at your Watts Per Kilo does!


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

Rackerman said:


> Stevesbike, that link is very useful to me and hopefully to others browsing this thread. Do you know if the same type of table exists for V02 Max? I hate to cut a forum short as discussion is great but that table really gives me a great idea of where I stand and as long as any reader has gone through the proper procedures in getting their FTP tested and established then it should prove pretty invaluable to them as well.
> 
> I look forward to continuing to read the training with power book and to also spend some time in evaluating and understanding the V02 max data which should be one of the other critical metrics to monitor improvements in. I like the V02 metric too as simply losing weight continues to improve the results... Much like looking at your Watts Per Kilo does!


Only way to know what race category you are, or what power you need to race/compete at a certain level is to go race. 

There are far too many variables (aerodynamics and race experience/skills especially) to give you more than a range of power that would be so broad as to be fairly unhelpful.

All you can really say is that if you have Excellent W/kg but are getting dropped in Cat 4 races, then power output isn't your problem.

If your power is much less than typical for a level of racing, then you'll need to be exceptionally crafty, skilful and/or very aerodynamic.


VO2max is an even worse predictor of race ability than power output. It ignores other key physiological variables that impact your power output.


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## Rackerman

Alex, I get your point about just getting out and racing and figuring it out based on results. I also understand the tactics and skills aspects of racing and these can only be learned by experiencing the race environment. I get the requirements as well for aerodynamics and tied in with that, equipment too...

I'm trying to get the power requirements in play during winter training prior to actually getting out to race for late March/April. All in all, I'm building a race car engine and need to know what class I can race it in based on the power it puts out. The table helps that.

I'm not sure how you can discount V02 Max so easily though? Please explain.

_"VO2max is an even worse predictor of race ability than power output. It ignores other key physiological variables that impact your power output."_

You lost me on this one... I've ridden in many Fondo's and group rides and know that the protection of a group can provide and tactics only get you so far. You still need to have a significant endurance level to compete and not get dropped, regardless of power so I'm not sure what I'm missing here?


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## kbiker3111

Rackerman said:


> I'm not sure how you can discount V02 Max so easily though? Please explain.
> 
> _"VO2max is an even worse predictor of race ability than power output. It ignores other key physiological variables that impact your power output."_


I think Alex is implying that VO2max is a very one dimensional marker and doesn't predict performance as well as [email protected] or FTP. A rider can have a high VO2max or even high [email protected] and still have trouble sustaining long efforts. 

To echo what everyone else has said, the only way to know how well you will race is to enter a race. I know a cat 2's with FTP of 5.2 w/kg and a cat 2 with FTP of 3.2 w/kg and the weaker rider wins a heck of a lot more races.


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## Fireform

Intervals, two helpings a week, will do you a world of good. 

If you aren't getting out of your comfort zone once or twice a week you aren't improving.


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## Rackerman

Thanks for the post kbiker as well as all the other members that weighed in...

I'll continue my winter training and test my abilities in the spring during some early races. 

I'm a numbers guy and ultimately was looking for a way that numbers could show or predict performance potentials. Perhaps a range of indicators exists that would give me a better idea (Outside of race tactics, equipment and experience) but the two that I'm tested for (FTP and V02 max), are not proving as valuable in the long run as the actual racing experience...

Regardless of not getting the true number I searched for, I respect the opinions and experience levels of the coaches in this forum!


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

kbiker3111 said:


> I think Alex is implying that VO2max is a very one dimensional marker and doesn't predict performance as well as [email protected] or FTP. A rider can have a high VO2max or even high [email protected] and still have trouble sustaining long efforts.
> 
> To echo what everyone else has said, the only way to know how well you will race is to enter a race. I know a cat 2's with FTP of 5.2 w/kg and a cat 2 with FTP of 3.2 w/kg and the weaker rider wins a heck of a lot more races.


Essentially. 

Sustainable power output is a factor of several underlying physiological characteristics, with VO2max only being one of them. It does tend to set an upper potential limit for aerobic performance, and of course you'll need a minimum level to be a pro bike rider (say), but pro bike riders have VO2 max levels ranging from low 70's to high 90's (ml/kg/min), and there are plenty of riders with VO2max levels well into that range who are not able to race at that level.

Fractional utilisation of VO2max at sub maximal levels is a very big factor, especially where that point is at threshold (time trial) power level. It is a highly variable between individuals and is also highly trainable. And of course there is also gross efficiency which is significantly variable between riders.

e.g. two riders might have same VO2max but their sustainable power output can be significantly different simply because they have different gross efficiency and/or their threshold occurs at a different % of VO2max.

See here for a bit of a feel for how these factors combined can result in quite different power outputs:

Alex's Cycle Blog: Looking under the hood


But getting back to performance prediction, it's been pretty well recognised through laboratory performance testing that VO2max isn't a particularly good predictor of performance, all you can really say is it might be indicative of the general ball park you have potential to play in. It's not until you start competing that you'll really know.

There's a neat chart that Robert Chung did from the data provided by the Coyle et al study on time trial power outputs of elite national and state level riders. The correlation between actual performance and VO2 was weak, but the correlation with power output was far stronger.

That's not to say of course one can't improve, of course we can, and in some cases significantly, but as the pithy power proverb goes:

"The best predictor of performance is performance itself" - Andy Coggan


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## tom_h

Rackerman,
Competitveness may vary widely by geographic region, and how much training & racing is feasible.

At 190 lbs & 220W last season, that's 2.55 W/kg.

Unfortunately, where I race (So Calif), that would be very tough to be competitive even in the 60+ yr old masters category, even on flatter terrain.

On the plus side, you had huge improvements last season & is reasonable to expect substantial future gains, with appropriate training.

Many will comment, and correctly so, that racing is highly dependent on short anaerobic & vO2max spurts (except TT events) in the 1' -5' range. 
Still, without a sufficienly high FTP, those spurts would exhaust you so much, you wouldn't be able to hang with the peloton.


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## Rackerman

Hi Tom, that's awesome feedback and yes, I'm aware that as a base number my watts per kg is around that of someone who's never been on a bike before! It's amazing the negative impact that weight has here and I'm sure I can increase the watts and decrease the weight. Ideally, my goal for this year is that I'd like to be around 79.5 Kgs and FTP around the 300 mark. That would put me in the 3.77 range and I'll be slightly more competitive from a numbers standpoint... The point has been made that strategy, race experience and equipment all need to come into play here too as well as just getting out there and racing.

Your point about the "Spurts" and gassing out is absolutely correct and something that I train hard for right now to recover from accelerations or climbs while riding and managing LT... 

Not sure if my goal is realistic but I'll figure that out as the outdoor season progresses. It's been a pretty busy winter thus far of steady winter training both on the bike and in the gym.


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## jmorgan

Your goals are a bit ambiguous, you might think of lowering them a little to make them a little more realistic. You are currently at 2.5 w/kg and jumping to 3.77 w/kg isn't going to be easy. How long are you able to hold 325w right now? Im going to guess under 5mins, that is 3.77 w/kg, you have a ways to go to maintain that power for an hour. 

Not saying you won't be able to achieve your goals, but going from 170 to 220 is much easier than 220 to 300. I don't know what your body build is like but you might consider a little more weight lose and a little less power, like 75kg and 280w as a more reasonable goal and that would get you to 3.7 w/kg.


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## Rackerman

*JPMorgan*, I get your view and I'm thinking what you're suggesting is probably where I'll end up on power but I'm planning for 300W. Coming up short will get me to the 280's.

I'm built much more muscular than a typical cyclist with sprinters legs (Large lower body) and a slightly built upper body. Good news is my peak power is pretty high at least! At 75kgs, I'm going to be pretty lean and I still want to be able to live and have a drink once and while so the weight loss will be a significant challenge to get that low. At 79kgs and 280 Watts puts me to 3.54... 

*Fireform*, intervals are ongoing with off season work being mostly Z2 and Z3... now progressing into some Z4. I definitely get out of my comfort zone and understand the power and impact of Zones on both building power and training my body how to process lactate.

_Again thanks to all for the feedback and I hope that this category is also assisting other cyclists that have entered or re-entered the sport later in life._


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## Guod

No offense, but if you're only venturing into Z4 at this point, it seems like you're moving a little too cautiously. It's not bad to go full bore occasionally, even in the off season. Base building is good (Z2-Z3), but you need to have some intensity as the season approaches.

The best thing for race prep is to go ride with some people who will make you suffer. Especially since you're just starting out. Your body will adapt faster than you think. Just make sure to eat right and get enough rest.


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## Rackerman

Hi Guod... I'm in the great white north and realistically, we're three months away from the first round of races and probably 6 weeks away from being able to ride outdoors consistently.


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## the_gormandizer

Rackerman said:


> Hi Guod... I'm in the great white north and realistically, we're three months away from the first round of races and probably 6 weeks away from being able to ride outdoors consistently.


Consider investing in a USB Ant stick and Trainer Road. They have lots of rides that are video based to break monotony, or you can create your own. They also have training plans with the regular membership fee.


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