# Value of these vintage road bikes? (Peugeot and Miele)



## sambam613 (Apr 9, 2014)

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-image.html?adId=583735938&image=0&enableSearchNavigationFlag=true 

I am being offered $300 for the bike. From my understanding Ishiwata 022 is comparable to Columbus SLX. However, I'm unfamiliar with Miele's build quality of their frames. Did they make decent frames comparable to Bianchi? This bike would be for riding (it's difficult finding bikes in my size) 

Vintage Peugeot Road Bike - Great deal | road | Ottawa | Kijiji

This bike seems like a bargain. Thinking of buying, fixing it up, and reselling or giving it to a friend if it fits them. Anyone familiar with the model and/or price? It looks familiar to a Peugeot 1979 PY 10 CP, but was this colour and style of frame popular back in the day? 

1979 Peugeot PY 10 CP - would this be the same bike? 

Any insights on either bike would be greatly appreciated!


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> I am being offered $300 for the bike


this sounds like you are selling, in which case I'd jump at a $300 offer.

if you are buying, then I'd be thinking $100-$200.

Miele were a decent bike. That example is late '80's, so over 25 yrs old. Looks fairly original.


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## davcruz (Oct 9, 2007)

I think $300 is a reasonable price for the very original Miele, it is a nice vintage ride with a desirable group on it that appears complete. Not sure the frame is quite to the standard of SLX but it is nice. The others I would leave. You have two very different size bikes listed, the Miele is small and the the Peugeot is a 57 cm. Which size do you need?


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## Blue Star (Jun 9, 2012)

I had that same Miele only in a different colour, which I bought in 1985 at Pecco's in Ottawa. I forget what I paid for it - around four hundred is what comes to mind. Also, I recall that the 85 Mieles with Shimano 600 had Tange frames and didn't come in pink.

It was a great bike and the best deal for a complete "600" build with the futuristic biopace rings (!). Three hundred may be a reasonable price, but I'd make sure the chain/cassette is in good shape and, of course, the frame doesn't have any issues.


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## sambam613 (Apr 9, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> this sounds like you are selling, in which case I'd jump at a $300 offer.


Sorry for the confusion. The original listed price is $340 but he said he would be willing to go down to $300 for it. I'm guessing you don't think it's a good deal?


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## sambam613 (Apr 9, 2014)

davcruz said:


> You have two very different size bikes listed, the Miele is small and the the Peugeot is a 57 cm. Which size do you need?


The Miele is for me to ride. I want to get the Peugeot just because it seems like a bargain for $50. I was thinking of fixing it up and re-selling it, or if I can find a friend that it fits I'd just give it to them.


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## sambam613 (Apr 9, 2014)

Blue Star said:


> I had that same Miele only in a different colour, which I bought in 1985 at Pecco's in Ottawa.


Nice to hear from someone who's had the same bike. (I'm also from Ottawa by the way - love Pecco's!) 

Any idea how the ride would feel compared to a Bianchi Superleggera with Columbus SLX tubing? I have someone offering me a frame for $450 (gah, I've just always really wanted a Bianchi!) but don't know if that's a bit too much to pay for the frame alone. Originally I was planning on taking the Shimano 600 groupset from this bike to put it on the Bianchi but if this ride is of relatively comparable quality then I'd just stick with this one.


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## Blue Star (Jun 9, 2012)

Sambam, the tubing isn't really what separates this Miele from a Superleggera. The Miele is more of a sport-fitness bike whereas the Bianchi is a dedicated racer. You'll notice that there are eyelets on the Miele frame and it has more relaxed geometry. 

If you really want a vintage Italian racer, this bike won't fill that need!


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

SLX has 0.9/0.6/0.9 main tubes with helical ribbed reinforcements in the butts.










Ishiwata 022 is also has 0.9/0.6/0.9 main tubes.










The 022 tubeset weighs about 200g more than the SLX tubeset, but that could be because the uncut tube lengths are different or some other factor. Frames with similar geometry using either SLX or 022 should have similar stiffness/ride quality.


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## sambam613 (Apr 9, 2014)

Blue Star said:


> The Miele is more of a sport-fitness bike whereas the Bianchi is a dedicated racer. You'll notice that there are eyelets on the Miele frame and it has more relaxed geometry.


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what difference would this have on ride quality? Would it be mostly that they were built for different purposes (ie. the Miele for casual biking and the Bianchi for racing)? I assume this means the Bianchi would be more ergonomic? 

I've never fully understood the differences in frames - all I know is that it makes much more difference than the actual tubing material but I've never understood how or why. Would the biggest difference be comfort and stiffness? Assuming both are the same weight, I doubt one would be much faster than the other.


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## Blue Star (Jun 9, 2012)

Sambam, I suspect that you'd enjoy the Miele more than the Bianchi. The Miele isn't exactly a "casual biking" ride, and from what I recall it's a fast and nimble bike and also great for centuries. The biggest difference is in the slightly longer chainstays and lower bottom bracket. You can mount fenders on it as well as racks if you are commuting. The frame is still a lot tighter than your typical recreational or touring bike: it's what is referred to now as a Gran Fondo bike. Racing bikes can be tough for some people to ride for extended periods as they are extremely responsive. Basically, the longer the wheel base, the more stable the ride.

If you plan on doing a lot of hill climbing and really want a racing bike, I think you'd find a vast difference with a contemporary shifting system/drivetrain. Hope this helps.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

bikerjulio said:


> this sounds like you are selling, in which case I'd jump at a $300 offer.
> 
> if you are buying, then I'd be thinking $100-$200.
> 
> Miele were a decent bike. That example is late '80's, so over 25 yrs old. Looks fairly original.


Agree! Selling them for $300 sounds like a sweet deal for you OP...


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## sambam613 (Apr 9, 2014)

Blue Star said:


> Sambam, I suspect that you'd enjoy the Miele more than the Bianchi. The Miele isn't exactly a "casual biking" ride, and from what I recall it's a fast and nimble bike and also great for centuries. The biggest difference is in the slightly longer chainstays and lower bottom bracket. You can mount fenders on it as well as racks if you are commuting. The frame is still a lot tighter than your typical recreational or touring bike: it's what is referred to now as a Gran Fondo bike. Racing bikes can be tough for some people to ride for extended periods as they are extremely responsive. Basically, the longer the wheel base, the more stable the ride.
> 
> If you plan on doing a lot of hill climbing and really want a racing bike, I think you'd find a vast difference with a contemporary shifting system/drivetrain. Hope this helps.


Thank you so much for this in-depth answer! I've just purchased a sweet carbon fibre bike for hill climbing but was looking for a bike mostly for longer trips and commuting around the city (I want to avoid having my carbon bike locked up as much as possible). So I think I'll just purchase the Miele even if it's a tad overpriced - it's a pain in the arse trying to find vintage frames in such a small size. 

Thanks again, I really appreciate your input!


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Ishiwata 022 was a copy of Columbus SL, not SLX. It pre-dated SLX by several years. IIRC, SLX added the "rifling" in order to create a stiffer tube to replace the SP tubing that had been used for larger framesets since the SL was too light for the bigger riders. SLX made a lighter frame than an SP frame, but not lighter than SL. Of course, this is working from a foggy memory...


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## davcruz (Oct 9, 2007)

At $300 and somewhat dependent on your geographical location, the Miele is not really overpriced IMO. It's not a steal but not too much. Where I live it would bring $300 quite easily most likely.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

OP I guess I'm a little blase on Mieles because there' just so many of them kicking around Toronto.

I bought one new in '91, a "Road Issue" from Cyclepath with all "new" Shimano 105. 7 speed, indexed shifting, dual-pivot brakes, aero levers, biopace. Paid about $1,100 at the time. I eventually rode it as a winter beater and finally passed it on to a son.

That later 105 group was significantly better than what's on that '85 one IMO.

The issue with the color pink is that it's been "taken" by the breast cancer charity, NTTAWWT, so it's no longer just a pink bike, it's a cancer charity bike.

Up to you of course. I still think $300 is too much.


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## Blue Star (Jun 9, 2012)

Sambam, that Miele would make a great commuter, especially if it's going to be tethered outdoors for long stretches of time. 

I think it's wrong to refer to these bikes as "vintage" in any way. In the mid-eighties there was a glut of 600 equipped Taiwan manufactured frames with different branding (Velo-sport, Nishiki, Bianchi, Miele, etc.) that were virtually indistinguishable apart from the wheel rims and attachments. The tubing and chromed fork on the specimen you're interested in suggests that it was upgraded from the regular Shimano 600 frame; probably the Cyclone II Miele if memory serves me. The beautiful Myatas of the day were a class apart and were also priced accordingly.

As far as pricing goes, if you offer the seller the asking price, you should also request a shop assessment, tune up, cable replacement and depending on their condition, new tires, chain and cassette. No point buying a close to thirty year old bike only to find out it needs at least the paid cost in replacement parts.

Having said that, if you can get three years' use out of it the fact that you paid one hundred or four hundred bucks for it is pretty inconsequential, in my opinion anyway.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

bradkay said:


> Ishiwata 022 was a copy of Columbus SL, not SLX. It pre-dated SLX by several years. IIRC, SLX added the "rifling" in order to create a stiffer tube to replace the SP tubing that had been used for larger framesets since the SL was too light for the bigger riders. SLX made a lighter frame than an SP frame, but not lighter than SL. Of course, this is working from a foggy memory...


The history of Columbus SLX, SPX, and TSX, and the internal helical reinforcements in these tubesets is interesting. The reinforcements in SLX and SPX are only in the butts, which is already quite stiff because of the wall thickness in the butts (0.9mm for SLX and 1.0mm for SPX) and it could be argued the reinforcements were mainly a marketing gimmick. In fact, many framebuilders went back to the use of a mix of SL with SP down tubes for larger (~58cm and bigger) frames because in spite of the helical reinforcements in the butted ends, SLX was just too whippy for larger frames with riders much over 175-180 pounds.

Several contemporary articles compared tubesets. Most notable was "The Magnificent Seven" in the February, 1996 issue of _Bicycle Guide_ where identical framesets similarly equipped using seven Columbus tubesets were evaluated in a "blind" comparison for ride comfort, stiffness, and other characteristics (the difference of the four OS frames compared to the three standard diameter tubing frames were visually obvious). The tubesets were Aelle, Cromor, Thron OS, Brain OS, SLX, Neuron OS, and EL-OS, and interestingly SLX was thought to be "softest", Thron OS judged to best absorb road vibration, Neuron OS judged the stiffest, with no perceived difference between Cromor, Brain OS, Aelle, and EL-OS.

I agree with Blue Star that for commuting and long rides, you'd probably like the Miele better because of the road-sport geometry. It looks like a very small frame, though; just be sure it fits you.


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## sambam613 (Apr 9, 2014)

I ended up purchasing the bike for $300 and I love it! Thank you all for the helpful input  The bike's in great condition


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Great! Congratulations and enjoy your new ride. :thumbsup:


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Scooper said:


> The history of Columbus SLX, SPX, and TSX, and the internal helical reinforcements in these tubesets is interesting. The reinforcements in SLX and SPX are only in the butts, which is already quite stiff because of the wall thickness in the butts (0.9mm for SLX and 1.0mm for SPX) and it could be argued the reinforcements were mainly a marketing gimmick. In fact, many framebuilders went back to the use of a mix of SL with SP down tubes for larger (~58cm and bigger) frames because in spite of the helical reinforcements in the butted ends, SLX was just too whippy for larger frames with riders much over 175-180 pounds.
> 
> Several contemporary articles compared tubesets. Most notable was "The Magnificent Seven" in the February, 1996 issue of _Bicycle Guide_ where identical framesets similarly equipped using seven Columbus tubesets were evaluated in a "blind" comparison for ride comfort, stiffness, and other characteristics (the difference of the four OS frames compared to the three standard diameter tubing frames were visually obvious). The tubesets were Aelle, Cromor, Thron OS, Brain OS, SLX, Neuron OS, and EL-OS, and interestingly SLX was thought to be "softest", Thron OS judged to best absorb road vibration, Neuron OS judged the stiffest, with no perceived difference between Cromor, Brain OS, Aelle, and EL-OS.
> 
> I agree with Blue Star that for commuting and long rides, you'd probably like the Miele better because of the road-sport geometry. It looks like a very small frame, though; just be sure it fits you.


Scooper
you dont happen to have any information regarding PRX tubing do you?
My Prelude is PRX and I have been told that the PR stands for Paris Roubaix, but I have no evidence of this.
I do know that it is the smoothest riding frame I have ever owned though.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

FTR said:


> Scooper
> you dont happen to have any information regarding PRX tubing do you?
> My Prelude is PRX and I have been told that the PR stands for Paris Roubaix, but I have no evidence of this.
> I do know that it is the smoothest riding frame I have ever owned though.


Sorry, but I haven't been able to get first hand info (from Columbus literature) on PRX. Second hand unverified information from several sources indicate the PRX tubeset is Cyclex alloy (same as SL, SLX, SP, SPX, TSX) with the helical reinforcements running the full length of the top tube and down tube similar to TSX which would improve frame stiffness. The weight of the PRX tubeset is 2310g, which is a little heavier than SP (2215g). I don't have any information on PRX wall thickness or butting profiles. Velobase.com suggests that "PRX" and "SLX NEW" were both used to describe the same tubeset.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Scooper said:


> Sorry, but I haven't been able to get first hand info (from Columbus literature) on PRX. Second hand unverified information from several sources indicate the PRX tubeset is Cyclex alloy (same as SL, SLX, SP, SPX, TSX) with the helical reinforcements running the full length of the top tube and down tube similar to TSX which would improve frame stiffness. The weight of the PRX tubeset is 2310g, which is a little heavier than SP (2215g). I don't have any information on PRX wall thickness or butting profiles. Velobase.com suggests that "PRX" and "SLX NEW" were both used to describe the same tubeset.


Chees Scooper.
I had seen that Velobase article but nothing much else.
It was an old school framebuilder from her in Australia that had no hesitation in stating that PRX stood for Paris Roubaix when I mentioned it.


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