# "Upright" position...is it just the head tube?



## NU2ROAD (Jan 16, 2007)

I've read where a lot of riders feel more comfortable on a road bike that has a more upright position as both the Trek Pilot and the Specialized Roubiax have. 

Is it just the length of the head tube that makes the difference? If so, can an angled stem be used on a more conventional road bike to put the rider in that same kind of position?

Also, as I understand it, the head tube is part of the frame and can't be changed, but can a particular headset (or spacers ) be used to raise the bars? 

If this issue has been addressed before, feel free to point me to that thread...

Thanks.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Generally speaking, stems are available in 2 types. A "quill" stem is shaped roughly like an "L". One leg of the "L" fits into the head tube of the frame, the other leg holds the bars. This kind of stem can be adjusted by how much of it gets inserted into the frame's head tube. It has to be inserted to a safe minimum, but there is usually quite a bit of leeway. 

The 2nd type of stem is sometimes referred to as an "ahead set" stem. This is a straight piece of material, usually aluminum, that has a clamp at either end. One end holds the bars while the other end is clamped onto the fork's steerer. This stem can be adjusted for height only by adding spacers between the stem and the fork steerer. There are a few quill type stems that are adjustable even more via a built-in "knuckle" type joint.

The 2 types of stems are not interchangable on a bike, unless the forks are changed, or special adapters are used. Both types of stems are available in different angles, thus effectively raising or lowering the bars. The stems are also available in different lengths to account for differences in arm lengths.


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## JayTee (Feb 3, 2004)

I'll add a few thoughts.

First, what Mr. Versatile is describing is the difference between a threaded and threadless headset and the resulting difference in stems. But I don't think that most bikes other than some wonderful high-end steel have come with quill stems and 1" headsets, etc. for at least 6 years so I assume you are assisting a rider with a stem which merely clamps onto the fork at one end and the bars on the other.

In these circumstances, IF the fork has not yet been cut you can add spacers under the stem to increase rise. After that, a riser stem is your only option.

But to your more basic question: is an upright riding position merely a reference to headtube length? No. A true "upright" position is best achieved by selecting a bike where the overall geometry gets the rider more upright than forward. So that's usually a combination of shorter top tube, longer head tube, and still some spacers and riser stem. You'll see it on hybrids, cruisers, and some touring setups, etc. A rider who truly wants or needs an upright position is better off getting the right bike rather than trying to retrofit riser stems, etc.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

I agree with what JayTee says. A lot comes down to asthetics. Sure you can stack 12cm of spacers on a race bike to give you a more upright ride, but it looks awful and it will never feel right. 

I think it is always best to get the proper bike for the kind of riding you are going to be doing and the kind of position you want to ride in.

If you are buying a new bike, don't cut the steerer until you decide where you want the bars (for threadless systems). Some bike shops are quick to chop that thing off with only 2 or 3 cm of spacers which can make even the most relaxed touring geometry uncomfortable.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Roubaix vs. Tarmac and Pilot vs. Madone*



NU2ROAD said:


> I've read where a lot of riders feel more comfortable on a road bike that has a more upright position as both the Trek Pilot and the Specialized Roubiax have.
> 
> Is it just the length of the head tube that makes the difference? If so, can an angled stem be used on a more conventional road bike to put the rider in that same kind of position?


From taking a look at the geometry specs. of the Specialized Roubaix vs. Tarmac, and the Trek Madone vs. Pilot, here's what pops out:

There are small changes in geometry between the "racing" and "comfort" geometries, but most are quite small, except for the difference in head tube length, which are different by several centimeters for the same size of the comparative models. As far a the other small changes, the "comfort" geometries have:

- Slightly longer chainstays
- Slightly shallower head angles
- Slightly longer trail (more stable steering)
- Slightly longer front centers
- Slightly longer wheelbases
- Slightly steeper seat tubes

Interestingly, the Roubaix has the same top tube length as the Tarmac, and the Pilot has only a slightly longer top tube tube length (less than 1 cm) than the Madone.

Overall, the "comfort" geometries will have somewhat more stable handling (longer wheelbases, more trail) and slightly better road vibration isolation (longer chainstays, shallower head angle). They allow a more upright riding position by allowing less saddle set back (saddle more directly above the BB) and less hip bend to reach the bars (longer head tube). Unless a shorter stem is used, the overall reach to the bars with the "comfort" geometries won't be any less, the rider just doesn't have to bend over as far to achieve the same reach.

Another odd difference: The Tarmac has a higher bottom bracke that the Roubaix (not surprising, as this allows more cornering clearance), but the Pilot has a higher BB than the Madone.



NU2ROAD said:


> Also, as I understand it, the head tube is part of the frame and can't be changed, but can a particular headset (or spacers ) be used to raise the bars?


Yes, but only to a point. Most fork manufacturers specify a maximum amount of spacers that can be used. For carbon forks, that maximum is typically about 40 mm. Most of the "comfort" geometry bikes have a head tube about 30 mm longer, so that adds substantially to the maximum height the stem can be raised.


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## msohio (Feb 23, 2004)

*Longer Headtube is the ultimate answer*

I am 65 and need a higher bar setup. I got there by using a longer fork, a bunch of spacers and a well angled Specialized stem. It was OK but prone to feeling unstable. Had a custom frame built with a much longer headtube that requires on 20 mm of spacers under the stem. What a handling difference, WOW! Goes where it is aimed withpout not issues.

I think the handling problems were related to the fact that the bars ended up well above the top of the headtube and that left me exposed to vibrations that could not be handled by the shorter headtube. So be careful going to far above the headtube, a source of potential handling problems, i.e. the dreaded death wobble.


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## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

As others have already said, best to figure out how high you need yer bars to be comfortable, and THEN buy a bike to suit that, then to try and retrofit a road bike after the fact. In that regard, a bike with more of a touring orientation, and a quill stem is going to be WAY easier to get the bars UP there, then a modern racing oriented bike with threadless stem. In summary; 1.)Taller head tube with slacker angle (2.)Longer chainstays (3.)Longer top tube (4)Longer seat tube (4.)Quilled stem. All of this is important IF you need the bars say level with or even an inch or two above the saddle. If not, you can probably make a regular roadie work for you. Figure it out BEFORE they cut the steerer tube, if you go threadless. Good luck.


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