# Is there a difference, OCLV and TCT Carbon



## singlespeed1

I have a 2005 Trek 5000, OCLV Carbon 120. The 2006 Trek 5000 has TCT Carbon. Could someone tell me the difference between Carbon 120 and the TCT Carbon. Is there a difference and if so which is better.


----------



## paulieb00

The OCLV is made in the United States.
The TCT is made overseas.


----------



## WhiskeyNovember

OCLV is the superior carbon. TCT is made overseas of rather generic carbon fiber, while OCLV carbon is sourced from the very people who provide carbon to Boeing, Raytheon, etc. 

The process used to manufacture OCLV, however, is what truly sets it apart. Have you ever seen cheap window tinting on cars? Usually, there are many air bubbles between the tinting material and window. Most carbon frames have similar pockets of air (or "voids") scattered in between the many layers of carbon fiber cloth. These voids are weak spots, resulting in less strength, or requiring additional material. 

OCLV uses a patented process that brings the level of voids down to 1% or less, if I remember correctly. To put that into perspective, the aerospace standard is up toward 4% or 5%.....so, technically, OCLV carbon is a bit more refined in that respect than the carbon fiber flying around at 600mph and 40,000 feet on $100 million jets.

In addition, OCLV frames are manufacturered in Waterloo, Wisconsin, making the workmanship and quality control superior to most frames manufacturered in China or Taiwan.


----------



## singlespeed1

Thanks for that info. I am glad i bought the 05 trek with oclv.

Chris


----------



## bas

singlespeed1 said:


> I have a 2005 Trek 5000, OCLV Carbon 120. The 2006 Trek 5000 has TCT Carbon. Could someone tell me the difference between Carbon 120 and the TCT Carbon. Is there a difference and if so which is better.


Lance won with oclv carbon. He never road TCT.


----------



## johngfoster

I've been told by my LBS that the manufacturing process is the same when comparing OCLV and TCT. However, The TCT is made overseas and can't comment on the quality of the CF. This being said, all the TCT frames as of March 2006 (the most recent data I have) have come from Waterloo in WI. Now this may not mean that the frame is made there, but the bike is at least assembled there prior to shipping to the LBS. So, in summary: TCT is intended to be the same as OCLV but the quality controls and guarantee that the process is adhered to, is not there.


----------



## Trek_envy

*Keep in mind...*

... some of the best (winning, and high end) carbon-fiber bike are made in Taiwan and China. Every Giant frame is made overseas. Some Colnago's are also made overseas (Not sure about the high end ones).

I ride a Madone. I love it. Top notch quality.

I have worked with a company that sent the majority (read Mature) products overseas for lower cost manufacturing. I would not say that the "quality just is not there". Asia is quickly becoming some of the best manufacturing in the world. The way I see it - the name TCT is just a way to differentiate where the carbon process is done. I would even go as far as to say that the carbon processes, and QC being done wherever these frames are made are the same as used in Waterloo. The only difference may be in the CF being used. I know that when we specced parts that were to be used in our products, WE dictated which suppliers, vendors, and components could and could not be used. As for processes - the engineers, and operators from the manufacturing house came to our facility prior to the transfer, to learn how to do the job, use the tools, and make the products pass our QC standards. 

You have to remember - Trek is still stamping their name on these things, thus betting their reputation. This is not a case of an Asian company trying to get into the bike market, making lower quality, cheaper goods. This is what Trek needs to do to bring downt the cost of CF bikes - and bring the technology to the masses. 

To be honest - I bought my Madone because I love Trek bikes for the fit, the price, the look, and the reputation. If the frames were made in Taiwan - I would probably still have bought one - providing the quality, and workmanship was there. Kudos if they can knock $500 off the price.

***The OCLV process is pretty neat BTW - I did thesis work with a bike company in University, who was working on their first CF offering.... they are a really big name - I wont name the company, but a tour contender rides this bike now. Basically (as of 5-6 years ago at least) they layed up the CF in a SS mold clamping it in place. They apply a very controlled amount of resin on the CF sheets (Which are pre-cut with the correct fiber orientation), then they put a heavy rubber balloon between the mold and the CF. Then they inflate the balloon, forcing the resin into the CF, minumizing voids. This is similar to vacuum-bagging that is used in other industries, but they use much higher pressures. Vacuum bagging is kind of limited to 1atm ~15psi. Last I heard they were using like 80-100 psi.***


----------



## Richard

The 2006 5000 is made in Asia of 200 gsm carbon, while the 2005 is USA of 120 gsm.

Further, the 2006 is a "monocoque" (i.e., the front triangle is molded in one piece) while the 2005 is classic Trek "lugged" and "bonded", which can result in better quality control.

Still, the competition to produce a sub $2000 full carbon is fierce, and I doubt Trek will compromise quality.


----------



## Macdaddy74

*Trek says following:*

I quote an answer which was given by Trek on the question:


_Trek has introduced many new carbon technologies. Our OCLV carbon is the
most demanded carbon product in the bicycle business worldwide. To
enhance our ability to continue delivering high end OCLV carbon bikes
Trek has developed a new line of carbon fiber products that fall under
the banner of Trek Carbon Technology or TCT

TCT frames are designed and engineered by the same people who are
responsible for the Tour winning OCLV technology. These less expensive
TCT frames will utilize a less complex, slightly heavier (200 gsm
carbon) manufacturing process.

TCT carbon frames offer Trek engineering and quality at a lower price
point. _

Greetz from the Netherlands


----------



## Clermont1

Wow, thank you all for such thorough information, fact AND opinion. much appreciated by the newly initiated. 
Clermont1
Trek Eqx TTX9.0


----------



## terbennett

WhiskeyNovember said:


> OCLV is the superior carbon. TCT is made overseas of rather generic carbon fiber, while OCLV carbon is sourced from the very people who provide carbon to Boeing, Raytheon, etc.
> 
> The process used to manufacture OCLV, however, is what truly sets it apart. Have you ever seen cheap window tinting on cars? Usually, there are many air bubbles between the tinting material and window. Most carbon frames have similar pockets of air (or "voids") scattered in between the many layers of carbon fiber cloth. These voids are weak spots, resulting in less strength, or requiring additional material.
> 
> OCLV uses a patented process that brings the level of voids down to 1% or less, if I remember correctly. To put that into perspective, the aerospace standard is up toward 4% or 5%.....so, technically, OCLV carbon is a bit more refined in that respect than the carbon fiber flying around at 600mph and 40,000 feet on $100 million jets.
> 
> In addition, OCLV frames are manufacturered in Waterloo, Wisconsin, making the workmanship and quality control superior to most frames manufacturered in China or Taiwan.


That's not a completely accurate statement. Giant TCR and Specialized S-Works are just as good as any Madone and they are made in Taiwan and China. Cost plays the biggest role here. If you look at a 2005 and older Trek 5000s, they had the same OCLV 120 frame as the higher level 5200,and 5500 models. the difference in the numbers had to do with the component groups:5000 had 105; 5200 had Ultegra and the 5500 had Dura Ace. Labor costs are higher on the OCLV (being that it's made in the US) so to keep the 5000 profitable, they switched outsourced to Asia to get the TCT carbon frame. It is a lower quality but not because it's made in Asia but because the level of carbon used. It's still a good frame or Trek wouldn't put their name on it. It was just a better alternative to axing the 5000 model. Remember, Trek's first full carbon-framed bike was the 1989 Trek 5000. It doesn't matter anymore since Trek changed all the names of their bikes anyway. What was the 5000 is essentially the Madone 4.7 today.


----------



## macbugs

*Thanks!*

I've been watching this thread since I've been thinking of getting rid of my 2005 Trek 5000 and getting a 2010 Trek Madone 4.7. LBS says they'll be in stock in the next week or so.


----------



## UpHillCrawler

*My 2 Cents*

I've had a 4.7 for 4 months and 1000 miles. The only change I made was to swap out the Bontrager wheels for a pair of Eastons that I had. The wheels were a nice improvement but not as much of a difference as you might think.

Several years ago I had a 2004 - 2005 OCLV trek 5500 and while it was a nice bike I think the 4.7 is a big improvement especially in stiffness and ride quality. I thought the 5500 had a vague almost balsa wood type feel to it and this has been greatly improved in the 4.7.

My LBS was having a huge sale on the 4.7 when I bought it and it would have been almost another $1500 OTD to get a OCLV 5.2. I spent close to an hour on both of them and the 5.2 felt great but I didn't think that the difference was enough to justify the additional cost and I'm very happy with the 4.7. 

I'm sure for a lot of people the difference would justify the extra cost, but for a middle aged hack like me the 4.7 if more than enough bike. BTW, I've owned several high end bikes in the past (Trek OCLV, Spec Roubaix, Fondriest, Pegoretti, LOOK, Pinarello, etc but from a cost / performance stand point the 4.7 is very hard to beat (if it fits you!)

Cheers


----------



## Pirx

Richard said:


> Still, the competition to produce a sub $2000 full carbon is fierce, and I doubt Trek will compromise quality.


That's a funny bit there. Anybody can produce a sub-$2000 carbon frame, at the same quality as any $5,000-frame. A Madone 6.9 costs a couple hundred bucks to produce. And Trek doesn't compromise quality any more _or_ less than pretty much any of the reputable frame manufacturers out there. Remember, this is about making money selling a product, and that's it. The prices you pay are what they are only because of advertising, and because people are willing to pay those prices.


----------



## zac

Pirx said:


> That's a funny bit there. Anybody can produce a sub-$2000 carbon frame, at the same quality as any $5,000-frame. *A Madone 6.9 costs a couple hundred bucks to produce.* And Trek doesn't compromise quality any more _or_ less than pretty much any of the reputable frame manufacturers out there. Remember, this is about making money selling a product, and that's it. The prices you pay are what they are only because of advertising, and because people are willing to pay those prices.


Do you have source information for that statement?


----------



## terbennett

zac said:


> Do you have source information for that statement?



Come on. You can't truly believe that a bike a Madone 6.9 frame cost into the thousands to manufacture. My brother used to own a bike shop in Georgia. One of his old college buddies works for Orbea in Spain. My bro told me that according to his buddy, the $4200 Orbea Orca's frame only costs a few hundred to manufacture. Madone is no exception. You are paying more for labor costs and team sponsorship on an OCLV frame. Do you think that an OCLV framebuilder is making peanuts? I doubt that Trek is paying them low wages. they are an honest company and fair to their employees from what I've been told. On top of that, high end components might cost less for them to purchase but they are still expensive. Now factor in that a bike consists of a multitude of components and the fact that the company must make a profit and there you have it. Look at the hands the bike must pass through to get to the buyer and then tell me that a $7,000 bike didn't cost the company maybe $2500 to build from material to delivery. I'm thinking less money to build but I'll give Trek the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## stumpy_steve

everyone believes advertising too much. you wouldn't notice a difference if both bikes were masked, so don't worry about it.


----------



## makeitso

The cost of the bikes is in the custom presses and molds that need to be milled every time they change the design of the bike. The carbon process is essentially hand laying carbon fiber sheets that have been machine cut into place and then placing a resin on top of it and then sucking the air out while pressing the pieces together to form the shape of the tube. Thus the true cost of the bike you're paying for is in the $100k plus machine/molds that are needed to be produced. Not in the materials and labor to actually produce the bike. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a bike's total frame cost was under $300 once they get 10s of thousands off the production line to pay for the machinery. 

Plus, who would want to buy a $300 bike? People would label it a 'cheap' bike with no status.


----------



## Richard

Re-reading my original post, I should have said that the competition to build a $2000 full carbon "bicycle" with a decent component spec is fierce.

But consider this. When Dorel recently announced the end of American production for all Cannondale frames, their CEO was quoted in Bicycle Retailer that labor costs were 20 times higher in the U.S. than China. 20 times!


----------



## terbennett

Richard said:


> Re-reading my original post, I should have said that the competition to build a $2000 full carbon "bicycle" with a decent component spec is fierce.
> 
> But consider this. When Dorel recently announced the end of American production for all Cannondale frames, their CEO was quoted in Bicycle Retailer that labor costs were 20 times higher in the U.S. than China. 20 times!


That doesn't surprise me at all. Still to be competitive, Cannondale had to do it because everyone else is doing it. Trek did it with the TCT and they'll probably do it with the OCLV one day. For die hards, hopefully not soon.


----------



## SilverBack14

paulieb00 said:


> The OCLV is made in the United States.
> The TCT is made overseas.


This is why I will be riding a Madone OCLV. I had been a Specialized guy until they stopped USA production. I love the "Built In USA" sticker and what it in means. More money is OK with me.


----------



## XLNC

Sorry, I have to resurrect this old thread, because I highly enjoyed reading the answers from 6 years ago, but it would be interesting to hear if there's a co-relation between 2012 '500 series OCLV' claiming "the best mix of materials available OUTSIDE of North America" (what people claimed TCT carbon was) and the fact that for 2012, there are no more TCT Carbon frames. Is OCLV the new TCT and there will be something new for 2013?

Another question I have is regarding my Cronus CX frame. For 2012 it lists it as that very '500 series OCLV carbon', but on my 2011 model, in Trek's "archives" section, it only states "Bonded Monocoque Carbon Frame." So does that mean my frame is made of a much cheaper "average mix of materials available outside of North America"?


----------



## Madone SIX

XLNC said:


> Sorry, I have to resurrect this old thread, because I highly enjoyed reading the answers from 6 years ago, but it would be interesting to hear if there's a co-relation between 2012 '500 series OCLV' claiming "the best mix of materials available OUTSIDE of North America" (what people claimed TCT carbon was) and the fact that for 2012, there are no more TCT Carbon frames. Is OCLV the new TCT and there will be something new for 2013?
> 
> Another question I have is regarding my Cronus CX frame. For 2012 it lists it as that very '500 series OCLV carbon', but on my 2011 model, in Trek's "archives" section, it only states "Bonded Monocoque Carbon Frame." So does that mean my frame is made of a much cheaper "average mix of materials available outside of North America"?


In talking to the Trek Rep for my LBS, here is what I have been able to discern. This info is coming from a Trek rep, so keep an open mind. 

OCLV is a process that reduces voids in the carbon, making it stronger and stiffer. Trek held a patent on this process that expires this year. Under the patent they only produced OCLV frames in the US. Now that it is expiring, they are using this process overseas as well. They are moving away from the TCT name because there was an association with inferiority.

I am not able to post links yet, but as far as the "levels" of carbon go, you can read about them here: /faq/questions.php?questionid=89 (you will need to add trekbikes.com in front to view).

Decide for yourself if it is marketing, or worth the extra cost to bump up to the next "level".

I happen to own two Madones. A 2008 5.2, (last year they were built in the US) and a 2012 6 Series Project One, also built in the USA. While I do not claim that I could tell a difference on a blind ride with a non-US TCT frame, I do thoroughly enjoy the ride of the OCLV Madones.

This is just my interpretation of my conversation with the rep. Someone feel free to correct me if my understanding is not correct.


----------



## onefastbiker

TREK marketing has added LAYERS of confusion to the true differences between their carbon bikes: OCLV (Optimum Compaction Low Void) was originally a manufacturing process - NOT a kind or grade of Carbon. My 1993 5200 was manufactured in parts and assembled rather then built-up around a "bladder" or "balloon" that stayed in the frame like it's more expensive and heavier competition at that time. The 5200 and 5500 had the SAME frame at that time- the difference was the component group. In time Trek introduced 120 and 110 carbon stating that that the number was the weight of a given square of carbon and the more expensive frame had the lighter weave. However, simply having lighter weave could also mean more open space between the strands of carbon. Filling this void with heavy rosin would make a HEAVER frame. This nomenclature didn't make sense on many levels. Other marketing moves made even less sense: TCT (Trek Carbon Technology) vs OCLV carbon when BOTH frames are made with the OCLV method?! I now have a 54cm 2011 Madone 5.9 with a TCT frame that weighs 2.001 lbs on a digital scale. My 1993 5200 OCLV frame weighed 2.54 lbs. The walls of the frame are clearly thinner on the new lighter bike demonstrating 20 years of advancement in the OCLV process. The best remark I ever read about Trek frames simply stated to ignore what-ever Trek is calling their carbon during a particular year and simply eventuate the frame on it's own merits against the competition in the same price range. Better yet - RIDE it -what-ever it called.


----------



## Golfster

Madone SIX said:


> In talking to the Trek Rep for my LBS, here is what I have been able to discern. This info is coming from a Trek rep, so keep an open mind.
> 
> OCLV is a process that reduces voids in the carbon, making it stronger and stiffer. Trek held a patent on this process that expires this year. Under the patent they only produced OCLV frames in the US. Now that it is expiring, they are using this process overseas as well. They are moving away from the TCT name because there was an association with inferiority.
> 
> I am not able to post links yet, but as far as the "levels" of carbon go, you can read about them here: /faq/questions.php?questionid=89 (you will need to add trekbikes.com in front to view).
> 
> Decide for yourself if it is marketing, or worth the extra cost to bump up to the next "level".
> 
> I happen to own two Madones. A 2008 5.2, (last year they were built in the US) and a 2012 6 Series Project One, also built in the USA. While I do not claim that I could tell a difference on a blind ride with a non-US TCT frame, I do thoroughly enjoy the ride of the OCLV Madones.
> 
> This is just my interpretation of my conversation with the rep. Someone feel free to correct me if my understanding is not correct.


2010 was the last model year they made the 5 series Madone with OCLV in the US. The 2011 switched to TCT and Taiwan production. It also included internal cable routing for both the brake and rear d, whereas the 2010, USA built and OCLV had internal rear brake cable routing, but the bottom cables were externally routed.


----------



## mariomal99

I also own 2 madones. A 2007 5.2sl and 2008 5.2 both oclv 110. I have never ridden a TCT carbon bike and would love to one to see if there is any difference. I think the biggest difference would be weight.

I also owned a 2005 5500 120 oclv and it was fantastic also. Honestly these bikes are awesome and piece of art.


----------

