# Swiss Stop Black Prince - Anyone using them?



## Turtle Torque (Jun 13, 2011)

Hello All. Been researching on Swiss Stop Black Prince. I have Mercury S3 39mm carbon clinchers and love the wheels. The stock pads that comes with them is lacking some modulation. I've been wanting to do Georgia 3 or 6 gap. One of the main reason I haven't is because I've been reading several riders on the web with carbon clincher rim melting or cracking due to high temp when riding brakes on steep descents. I know it's not that common, but two riders ( one was 220lbs male rider and other was 120lbs female rider) at the LBS store I ride with had their carbon clinchers melt or cracked up in Georgia 3 gap mountains. I'm not an aggressive descent rider ( 5'6" @ 168lbs) and known to ride the brakes when the speed exceed 45mph, so I have a lot of concerns due to rim failure and having to replace $$ carbon wheels. I was thinking with two options. purchase black prince because they modulate well, great stopping power, and lower heat to the rims as well as a lot of rave reviews from bikerumor.com or wekeepyoucycling.com, Or go with some cheap aluminum wheels just for mountain rides. I'm just asking if anyone out there in the real world with experience with the black prince so I can finalize my decision on the two options. Thanks all.


----------



## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

Just get some decent aluminum wheels. If you ride your brakes on a steep decent you'll burn up your wheels no matter what pads your running.


----------



## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

Try the pads and see what happens. Worst case, it'll be an improvement. Best case, it will rebut all the criticism of how unwise it is to ride on carbon clinchers (not likely) and/or create world peace. I've got the pads but the wheels aren't built yet, so I can't report....


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 8, 2013)

Go with the Black Prince pads, as you probably saw in our test video they ran a lot cooler then the outgoing Yellow Kings, with better modulation. We have some really fast descents around here like Gieger Grade and Mt. Rose, these pads had no problems. Swissstop Black Prince Brake Pad Review - YouTube


----------



## eajohnson (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm left wondering how this works. The modulation and reduced wet stopping distance are great and everything, but the lower temperature I don't get. In particular, it's not really the pad temperature (which I gather is what was measured) that concerns me, but rather rim temperature. When we brake, all of the kinetic energy of bike+rider (less a certain amount taken away by drag from other sources air etc.) goes into heat that originates at the brake pad and rim interface. So if the brake pad is absorbing less of that heat, it means either that it is doing a much better job of dissipating the heat, or that the heat is instead going into the rim (opposite of what we want). It's really important to know which is true. And if stopping distances (and presumably durations) are shorter, then the power that must be dissipated for the same stop increases proportionally. If these pads will produce lower temps at the rim, then they'll have my business for sure, the only thing that holds me back is wondering whether the opposite might actually be true.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

The heat comes from the energy of the descent. If the pads are doing the same amount of slowing or stopping, they'll generate the same amount of heat. Descending fast allows a larger proportion of the energy to be dissipated in air drag. Continuous braking puts all the energy into the pad rims.


----------



## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

so, while braking, the temperature of the rim is the same as the temperature of the pad?


----------



## eajohnson (Jun 24, 2011)

looigi said:


> The heat comes from the energy of the descent. If the pads are doing the same amount of slowing or stopping, they'll generate the same amount of heat. Descending fast allows a larger proportion of the energy to be dissipated in air drag. Continuous braking puts all the energy into the pad rims.


AFAIK there's no descent involved in the metric advertised by swissstop. In a descent situation, of course depending on the mass of the rider+bike and the starting height, there is a tremendous amount of potential energy that far outweighs the kinetic energy of the rider. By riding the brakes on the descent, you transfer not only the kinetic energy, but also that huge well of potential energy into the pads and rims. In a descent situation, since the potential energy outweighs kinetic by a huge margin, you could rig an experiment to exaggerate the difference between pads just by manipulating the starting height and mass.

I had assumed, that this was a level deceleration situation (they say 60-0 deceleration test) such that there is only kinetic energy to be dissipated, in which situation a longer stopping distance should actually be cooler (easier to dissipate the heat).


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

carlislegeorge said:


> so, while braking, the temperature of the rim is the same as the temperature of the pad?


Not necessarily. Heat is not temperature. However, the temperature at the contact between the pad and tires is likely the same or very close. How hot the rim gets and the pad gets depends on many factors including the rate of heat input, heat capacity of the material, thermal conductivity of the material, amount of material, conduction paths, modes of dissipation, etc... 

For example, aluminum has a higher heat capacity than CF and much much greater thermal conductivity so the area of the bead will get less hot with the same amount of heat input.


----------



## scottma (May 18, 2012)

I have these pads but cant be much help. I have a new Specialized bike with Roval Rapide CLX40 wheels which come with the Black Prince pads. This is my first set of carbon wheels and pads so I have nothing to compare to. They seem to work fine. Have not been out in the rain or been on a long decent yet.


----------



## Turtle Torque (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks all for the replies. I decided to get the black prince and will do some initial testing around my typical riding spots. Georgia is very hilly and know some good spots to do a test run. Will post review on them soon.


----------



## eajohnson (Jun 24, 2011)

Turtle Torque said:


> Thanks all for the replies. I decided to get the black prince and will do some initial testing around my typical riding spots. Georgia is very hilly and know some good spots to do a test run. Will post review on them soon.



That's awesome, if they work well I'd like to switch to them before riding in the mountains of NE Georgia next month. I've actually switched brakes too from planetx to eebrakes just because for instance descending Ceasar's Head on planetx brakes was a bit sketchy on the tight switchbacks and that was with aluminum rims, now I'm mainly riding on carbon (both clinchers and tubulars) and the braking is definitely a concern. Where I live and do most of my riding, I almost never brake as our hills have no hairpin turns, you just go as fast as you can.  Everything is different in the mountains.


----------



## eajohnson (Jun 24, 2011)

Turtle Torque said:


> Thanks all for the replies. I decided to get the black prince and will do some initial testing around my typical riding spots. Georgia is very hilly and know some good spots to do a test run. Will post review on them soon.


How have the new pads been treating you? My LBS had some in stock so I bought a set, haven't tried them yet.


----------



## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

I have about 200 miles on mine. Working great, but these are my first carbon wheels so I don't have any other carbon-specific pads to compare to. They do seem to be wearing pretty quick, so I'm not going to expect an extended lifespan. Mounted on DA 7900 brakes, I stop as well as I did on my alloy wheels. I've been on a few short steep descents where I had to come to a stop at the end. No signs of over-heating, of course nowhere near enough to delaminate wheels.


----------



## Turtle Torque (Jun 13, 2011)

Hey All. BP came in and no brainer on install. put over 100 miles. Rode on typical georgia terrain to some steep but short descents. Here are my initial thoughts. Coming from stock "Carbon" specific pads to the BP is extremely dramatic across the board. The initial bite is beyond believing. The modulation is phenom. I literally light touch the brakes, and it'll grab. It's definately on par with the aluminum rims. Braking is silent, but the 1st 50 miles with some testing on hard braking it would chirp/squeak or squawk for prolong hard braking. After 50 miles of break in, the noise subsided and now quiet. As for modulation, like I mentioned, its awesome, but doesnt feel like a typical alum modulation. hard to explain, but feels like tacky rubber modulation. I understand it's the compound that will give you that tacky mod feel, but just wanted to let everyone know modulation even though awesome is definately different feel from an alum modulation. Upon close inspection of the pads you can see shave rubber dangling just like carlislegeorge mentioned, pad wear is questionable. Will know for sure down the road. Now I just gotta have some Gahonna's to try 3gap mountains for long 40+mph downhill to really test the brake pads. Will let you know how that turns out in few months.


----------



## wtchoe (Nov 12, 2011)

Can anyone compare these to the Zipp Platinum pads?
Either the usual Platinums or the newer wider Evos?


----------



## djtodd (Nov 2, 2010)

carlislegeorge said:


> I have about 200 miles on mine. Working great, but these are my first carbon wheels so I don't have any other carbon-specific pads to compare to. They do seem to be wearing pretty quick, so I'm not going to expect an extended lifespan. Mounted on DA 7900 brakes, I stop as well as I did on my alloy wheels. I've been on a few short steep descents where I had to come to a stop at the end. No signs of over-heating, of course nowhere near enough to delaminate wheels.


Having used the "regular" yellow swiss stop pads, I'm going to go back to them from Black Prince. The durability of these pads is very poor. In a month they've noticeably worn to the point that the front pads are down 1/8" or more.


----------



## eajohnson (Jun 24, 2011)

djtodd said:


> Having used the "regular" yellow swiss stop pads, I'm going to go back to them from Black Prince. The durability of these pads is very poor. In a month they've noticeably worn to the point that the front pads are down 1/8" or more.


I agree that these pads wear quickly. However they are also low priced compared to the ZIPP Platinum. They seem to be wearing at a rate where I will replace them in more or less the sort of frequency that I replace tires (or somewhere in-between rear tire replacement frequency and front tire replacement). In casual solo training ride use they would probably last an entire season because you hardly touch the brakes in those circumstances. If used just for racing in technical situations where there is unavoidable braking involved, you might get 1/10th that life out of them. 

I've ridden on these pads for about five weeks. This includes solo riding, group riding, big descents in both dry and in rain (sometimes very heavy rain and hail also). My rims are Zipp 303 firecrest, brakes are eebrakes. My general impressions are that braking is very strong and absolutely no problem for any riding need in the dry, I'd have absolute confidence in a technical descent. In the wet however things are different, initial braking is very much reduced from what you would get with an aluminum rim and suitable pads. That's for the first five to eight seconds. After that, the braking kicks in strong almost the same as in the dry. It's as if you have (almost) no brakes and then suddenly the same brake pressure has you slowing very quickly. So technical group descents in the rain is a hairy proposition. It's possible to lock up the rear still in a panic deceleration as I found out this last weekend trying (thankfully with success) to avoid riders crashing in front of me. But modulation in the wet is a bit on and off with that built in delay, probably water being shed from the rim or something but it's a bit unnerving. So carbon rims with these pads would not be my first choice for technical descents in the rain, for sure.

All in all, it's mixed results. I will probably keep using these, but avoiding deliberately using them on rainy days (aluminum rims are the call for those conditions). I think clearly there's still work to be done between rim and brake pad manufacturers to solve the issue with wet braking on carbon rims.


----------



## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

The solution is to not ride the brakes. I don't think it really matters whether your wheels are carbon or aluminum or what pads you're running. People have blowouts on alu wheels on descents from riding their brakes too! 

Just learn to take the descents at abnormally high speeds 60 mph+ and don't crash. Riding brakes is the not the right way of descending. Brake to take your turns but don't brake because you're going too fast. 

Because you'll soon see your brake pads (even on aluminum rims) will wear down very quickly on mountainous sections. Riding mountains takes a lot of skill. Don't go up thinking you can just slow the bike down 1000's of feets down huge grades. It's just not the smart thing to do.


----------



## eajohnson (Jun 24, 2011)

CleavesF said:


> The solution is to not ride the brakes.
> ...


Ironically, someone that doesn't descend properly and rides the brakes when there's no reason to do so (i.e. to slow down for a corner that you would otherwise not make, or to avoid a collision which is always a valid reason to apply brakes), would probably experience better wet brkaing performance than someone that doesn't touch the levers until they need to. They might overheat their pads and rims, but the braking itself would probably be pretty good. 

I would also say that with these pads, when descending in the wet I'd definitely recommend a subtle application of brakes in advance of when you really need them to clear water and heat up the pads, then when you are ready to really decelerate they should be more responsive and less subject to a sudden shift in sensitivity (the transition is very abrupt when it happens). That will work for decelerating for corners that you can see coming up, but panic deceleration is another thing entirely (such as when riders get a blowout or crash in front of you).

Also, this probably goes without saying but when you're descending in crowded conditions with other riders and have nowhere to go, you're going to be using brakes to check your speed because no amount of sitting up and catching air is going to slow you down enough to avoid half wheeling the guy(s) in front of you and putting everyone in jeopardy. It's easy to stay off the levers when riding solo but not colliding with other riders is always a valid use for brakes. Brakes are important, when you need them you need them. It's a bit of a fallacy to act as if the problem is that people use the brakes, that if they just wouldn't use them there would be no problems. Well duh. That sort of skirts the issue.


----------

