# Has SRAM eTap Rendered Shimano Di2 Obsolete?



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

It seems to me, if SRAM's eTap system proves reliable, then it has rendered Shimano's Di2 system obsolete considering electric wires, and the necessity of placing and/or hiding the Shimano battery pack, are no longer required.

Of course, this doesn't consider one's preference about how the respective shifting systems operate.

Discuss.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Absolutely not. (Not yet)
It's pricey. People will deal with wires if it saves them money.
It's new. People aren't going to trust it for a while.
There's only one option. Shimano offers Dura Ace & Ultegra.

Time will tell though. If Shimano doesn't get on the ball with a wireless system then Sram will take a huge market share.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

tvad said:


> It seems to me, if SRAM's eTap system proves reliable, then it has rendered Shimano's Di2 system obsolete considering electric wires, and the necessity of placing and/or hiding the Shimano battery pack, are no longer required.
> 
> Of course, this doesn't consider one's preference about how the respective shifting systems operate.
> 
> Discuss.


I think it will. It should drive the Di2 prices down next to nothing. It will also force Shimano to copy SRAM in developing their own wireless system.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

I wonder if Campy will beat out Shimano with coming out with the complete wireless system... Probably not... Lol


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Has the company you work for got rid of their hard wired network systems?

Probably not.

Etap will provide a good solution for many. Wireless has its issues. di2 will be cheaper for a long time and money talks. If I had $2000 to spend, I'd go with Di2 and hydro disc instead of just eTap with rim brakes.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I don't see how wires and a battery are a problem really or how eliminating them provides any advantage (other than weight I suppose).
I can see how wireless is more cool from a techie stand point but in application, like actually riding the bike, does it matter?


----------



## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

I think it all depends on what your going for.

For di2 there is 1 battery.

For etap there are 4 to worry about.

For etap you dont have to have a frame that is internal wiring compatible.

For etap it will already broadcast on the ant+ protocol.

Di2 gives you the option of the ant+ box.

i think for tt shifters its a toss up. the blip pods vs the bar end shifters.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I can see how wireless is more cool from a techie stand point *but in application, like actually riding the bike, does it matter?*


No, it doesn't matter. From that perspective, I see no advantage of any electric shifting system over DA9000 mechanical.


----------



## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Way too early to tell.
I have a friend with a nice scar thanks to the "new" sram frt derailleur that was prone to flexing...Went OTB right next to me.
Don't remember if it was Rival, Force, Red? 
Oh well, too early to tell but it does look nice.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Apparently pro teams don't think so. Of the 18 teams on the world tour, only 2 are using eTap. Three on EPS. The rest on di2.
2016 WorldTour team bikes guide - Cycling Weekly


----------



## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

tlg said:


> Apparently pro teams don't think so. Of the 18 teams on the world tour, only 2 are using eTap. Three on EPS. The rest on di2.
> 2016 WorldTour team bikes guide - Cycling Weekly



Also FSA has an electronic groupset out there, that is just emerging still not in the radar.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> *I don't see how wires and a battery are a problem really or how eliminating them provides any advantage (other than weight I suppose).*
> I can see how wireless is more cool from a techie stand point but in application, like actually riding the bike, does it matter?


Ever try to retrofit a bike made for mechanical wire shifting to electronic?

In the cases it can be done...it uglies things up, badly. Then there's lots of frameset cases where it cannot be done at all due to frame design.




tlg said:


> Apparently pro teams don't think so. Of the 18 teams on the world tour, only 2 are using eTap. Three on EPS. The rest on di2.





tlg said:


> 2016 WorldTour team bikes guide - Cycling Weekly




All that says is Shimano has a more massive marketing budget to sponsor with.

Considering all the fruit baskets of sporting goods Shimano has their fingers into...you'd think they have more money to throw around and sponsor teams.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Marc said:


> Ever try to retrofit a bike made for mechanical wire shifting to electronic?
> 
> In the cases it can be done...it uglies things up, badly. Then there's lots of frameset cases where it cannot be done at all due to frame design.
> [/FONT]


Right. I haven't but after reading pittcanna's post re the differences I realized I did miss a real advantage to wireless and wouldn't have said what I did had I thought about that.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

tlg said:


> Apparently pro teams don't think so. Of the 18 teams on the world tour, only 2 are using eTap. Three on EPS. The rest on di2.
> 2016 WorldTour team bikes guide - Cycling Weekly


Of the 18 teams on the World Tour, how many pay for their drivetrain components?


----------



## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

about as much as Di2 made mechanical obsolete....
about as much as disc brakes made other brakes on road bikes obsolete...
you get the idea


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Marc said:


> All that says is Shimano has a more massive marketing budget to sponsor with.


It says di2 isn't remotely close to obsolescence.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

spdntrxi said:


> about as much as Di2 made mechanical obsolete....


With respect, I find that to be a poor analogy.

Some would argue elimination of wires is a significant advancement in electronic systems which will force Shimano and Campy to eventually follow the lead. Eliminating wires certainly simplifies frame manufacturing and could reduce fabrication costs, which from a manufacturer's perspective is advantageous (although I don't believe reduce costs would ever pass along to customers in lower cost frames).

I'm not arguing one way or the other...just pointing out a possibility for the future.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

tlg said:


> It says di2 isn't remotely close to obsolescence.


No....all it says is that 13 men's WorldTour teams have their transmission parts supplied _either gratis or cheapo _from Shimano. It says nothing about performance of Di2, or about reliability of eTap, or about who favors what, or about what is and is not obsolete. All it says is Shimano has 13 sponsorship deals with men's WorldTour teams, and that Shimano is a big enough coporation to afford to sponsor all those teams simultaneously.

If Shimano had a wireless transmission, and then most or all the teams still used cabled Di2....then that would prove what you want the present happenstance of sponsorships to prove. However that is precisely the kind of scenario that isn't the case presently.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

tlg said:


> Apparently pro teams don't think so. Of the 18 teams on the world tour, only 2 are using eTap. Three on EPS. The rest on di2.
> 2016 WorldTour team bikes guide - Cycling Weekly


Same as Specialized. They've got deep pockets.


----------



## apn (Mar 1, 2012)

eTap will absolutely NOT render Di2 obsolete, but it marks the next phase of the arms race and will force Shimano (and others) to respond - perhaps even this year with a 9070 replacement.

Di2 will only drop in price if Shimano sees a drop in demand. eTap is not shipping yet, and realistically, despite wads of manufacturer testing, it's still version 1.0

I've been a Shimano user for many years, harking back to my MTB days, but I see advantages and disadvantages to both systems.

I love the freedom and simplicity of an eTap install, but as Pitt pointed out, you have 4 batteries to worry about. The shifter batteries _should_ be good for a year or two, but high mileage users could be charging derailleur batteries on a monthly basis vs. several months for Di2.

Interchangeable derailleur batteries was a good idea, but I hope they offer a dual-battery charger.

While most people will focus on WIRELESS as the key development, another huge benefit SRAM has introduced is the simplicity of a single button per shifter. IMHO, this is a major benefit, especially for those of us currently wearing gloves for outdoor rides.

While I don't currently have problems with my 5800 Winter and 6800 Summer bike setups, I've been considering a new Di2 Summer bike and I think the two buttons and static brake lever setup will take some getting used to.

Having said that, Shimano could up the ante again by bringing their automatic (MTB) shifting technology to the road groupsets.

As Bob said "Times they are a changin'..."


----------



## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

Shimano has a robust electronic groupset for mtb.

Shimano XTR Di2 Arrives | Cycling News Togoparts.com

XTR di2


----------



## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Word is that Shimano doesn't want to go wireless and won't ever unless completely forced to by consumer demand.

If you're personally installing the group on a frame designed for mechanical shifting wireless would be a big advantage, but only until the install is done. If installing on a frame designed for Di2 it becomes less of an advantage but still nice. If you're paying someone else to build your bike or like the majority of people buying a complete bike I see no advantage.

Once you have the bike built the only difference I see is 1 battery with Shimano and 4 with Sram: advantage Shimano.

OP: Why do you think wireless is so much better? (please compare to internal Di2 since that what all current Di2 bikes are)


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Lelandjt said:


> Word is that Shimano doesn't want to go wireless and won't ever unless completely forced to by consumer demand.
> 
> If you're personally installing the group on a frame designed for mechanical shifting wireless would be a big advantage, but only until the install is done. If installing on a frame designed for Di2 it becomes less of an advantage but still nice. If you're paying someone else to build your bike or like the majority of people buying a complete bike I see no advantage.
> 
> ...


You could say the same thing about a well calibrated cable-actuated setup. What makes electronic shifting so wonderful after install and setup? Bearing in mind most people probably don't ride enough to warrant even a yearly chain replacement, and most people are fair-weather types that aren't out in the wet cold much if at all so dirty cables and housing are almost a non-issue.


I have a roadie mate who is on his second Di2 group (first 10s then franken 11spd)...and got to hear and see first hand how things are not sunshine and rainbows with Di2. The ETube toolset used to update Shimano electronic-transmission firmware is only compiled for .NET 3.5 which requires a Windows7 SP1 PC to run and that has never even been patched (W7 SP1 dating back to 2008 IIRC).....the instructions are written in badly translated Engrish....and then Shimano decides to biff franken-groups for no real reason. I suppose if you treat the parts like an appliance and never screw with them, and always intend to replace the entire kit at once, you'd never know any better.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

At the very least eTap will change how groupsets are marketed and sold. Seeing how so many racers/riders already have their own powermeter in the crank, Sram's $1600 upgrade is genius.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Marc said:


> ...the instructions are written in badly translated Engrish.


LOL. Well played, sir. Well played.


----------



## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

Does X make Y obsolete is the ridiculous argument that seems to pop up in any sector when something new comes out. Keep in mind DI2 has been out for a while, and eTap is new. You think Shimano is just sitting on their butts thinking we are done, we built it and we are done. No, they will have something in the works for a new product release at some point in the future that will overtake SRAM, and the process will continue, in every industry and sector.




tvad said:


> It seems to me, if SRAM's eTap system proves reliable, then it has rendered Shimano's Di2 system obsolete considering electric wires, and the necessity of placing and/or hiding the Shimano battery pack, are no longer required.
> 
> Of course, this doesn't consider one's preference about how the respective shifting systems operate.
> 
> Discuss.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ljvb said:


> You think Shimano is just sitting on their butts thinking we are done, we built it and we are done. No,* they will have something in the works for a new product release at some point in the future* that will overtake SRAM, and the process will continue, in every industry and sector.


No disagreement in general. My overall question boils down to the form factor of the new Shimano offering when it arrives. Will it be wired? Wireless? If wireless, and if one equates Di2 with _wired_ electronic shifting, then the question of Di2 obsolescence (or shall we say acquiescence) will have been answered.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Considering all the fruit baskets of sporting goods Shimano has their fingers into...you'd think they have more money to throw around and sponsor teams.[/QUOTE]

Maybe its because Shimano has to sponsor the Pro Bass Tour in addition to cycling. Just sayin'


----------



## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Marc said:


> You could say the same thing about a well calibrated cable-actuated setup. What makes electronic shifting so wonderful after install and setup?


As an owner of both 9000 and 9070 I agree with your premise, kinda. It's not the install part that makes Di2 easier to own, it's that it never comes out of adjustment. For an owner who doesn't know how to tune shifting that's huge, for a mechanic it's minor. My 9000 works perfectly but every few months or after disassembly for shipping it requires cable tension adjustment. For me, mechanical vs electronic is a non-issue. I have absolutely no preference and that's exactly how I feel about wires vs wireless. Hence my question to the OP about why he thinks E-tap makes Di2 obsolete.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Lelandjt said:


> OP: Why do you think wireless is so much better? (please compare to internal Di2 since that what all current Di2 bikes are)


I don't have a strong opinion that eTap is better than Di2 other than the differences I already mentioned in the first post. It's a Socratic question intended to encourage debate.


----------



## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Socates was the original troll. Look it up. He had mad beefs all over Athens. Mostly about strapped vs non-strapped sandals.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Lelandjt said:


> *Socates* was the original troll.


You're right. _Socates_ was the poor man's _Socrates_. A pretender. A charlatan and opportunist of the unaware.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Keoki said:


> I wonder if Campy will beat out Shimano with coming out with the complete wireless system... Probably not... Lol


Well let's see, Campy beat Shimano to 10 speed by what, 4 years? Then they beat them to 11 speed by another 3 years. They beat Shimano to 11-speed hub compatibility by about 12 years.

So you never know.


----------



## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I recently converted a Titanium bike from Ultegra 6800 to 6870. Routing the Di2 wires through the bottom bracket shell was a nightmare. 

The one big advantage to Wireless is it opens up electronic shifting to bikes that don't have internal cable routing options. Or, at least it makes it much easier to deal with the install in those situations.

As others have stated, Di2 will get cheaper, and Shimano will likely end up with their own wireless system fairly soon.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Seems to me you want a group set to change gears and stop when you apply the brakes. Whether or not there are wires involved seems to me is pointless. The question should be whether it changes gears better or stops better. Who cares if wires are or aren't involved?


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

bikerjulio said:


> Well let's see, Campy beat Shimano to 10 speed by what, 4 years? Then they beat them to 11 speed by another 3 years. They beat Shimano to 11-speed hub compatibility by about 12 years.
> 
> So you never know.


Then there was that quick release skewer thing


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Seems SRAM has a history of beating Shimano, but failing to capitalize like in disc brakes. SRAM needed to do this because the world simply views the Shimano solution as the best one. I don't get why a wire is bad and why anyone should care. What matters is braking and changing gears and not how the cockpit communicates with the derailleur or brake. I'm also wondering if a wireless system will have any potential issues with lost signals either when new or over time.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Trek_5200 said:


> Seems SRAM has a history of beating Shimano, but failing to capitalize like in disc brakes. SRAM needed to do this because the world simply views the Shimano solution as the best one. I don't get why a wire is bad and why anyone should care. What matters is braking and changing gears and not how the cockpit communicates with the derailleur or brake. I'm also wondering if a wireless system will have any potential issues with lost signals either when new or over time.


Try retrofitting a cabled bike for electronic...if it can be done (and these days lots of times it cannot), it is frustrating and/or ugly. Wireless means less cable fishing and retrofitting worries.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Ok, i'll buy that for someone who wants electronic...which I don't.
All these new solutions always bring new problems. I've already seen way too man posts about riders looking for solutions to fix their non-threaded bottom brackets.

I make no apologies for being a Luddite.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Trek_5200 said:


> Ok, i'll buy that for someone who wants electronic...which I don't.
> All these new solutions always bring new problems. I've already seen way too man posts about riders looking for solutions to fix their non-threaded bottom brackets.
> 
> I make no apologies for being a Luddite.


I hear ya. I got raised eyebrows when I ordered my Seven some years back and stipulated an English BB and not BB30 or PF. That being said, riding rollers having electronic buttons is a bit less risky than strong mechanically sprung ders and shifters.


----------



## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

tvad said:


> My overall question boils down to the form factor of the new Shimano offering when it arrives. Will it be wired? Wireless? If wireless, and if one equates Di2 with _wired_ electronic shifting, then the question of Di2 obsolescence (or shall we say acquiescence) will have been answered.


The new Shimano offering will NOT be wireless as already posted by lelandjk. A Shimano rep shared this with me recently.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

bikerjulio said:


> Well let's see, Campy beat Shimano to 10 speed by what, 4 years? Then they beat them to 11 speed by another 3 years. They beat Shimano to 11-speed hub compatibility by about 12 years.
> 
> So you never know.


Damn... You're right! 

Didn't they invent the wine bottle opener as well?

And are the only company to provide a full Ti cassette for my 10 speed record?


----------



## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> Ok, i'll buy that for someone who wants electronic...which I don't.
> All these new solutions always bring new problems. I've already seen way too man posts about riders looking for solutions to fix their non-threaded bottom brackets.
> 
> I make no apologies for being a Luddite.


For someone who doesn't care about electronic shifting, you sure do spend a lot of time posting in threads about it.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

i am interested in it, just not in using it.


----------



## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

I don't think so. It's not much lighter. It's new and a lot of people will wait for the second year or 2nd generation. Overall, I like the idea, but I'm not jumping on the bandwagon yet. 

There are still some small quirks that may be worked out in the 2nd generation. For example, SRAM recommends that users remove the batteries for travel since the sleep mode will wake up when the bike is being transported. While I wouldn't remove the batteries for the 10-30 minute trip across town, I could see removing and keeping track of the batteries for longer trips to become tiresome. How many people will travel 8-10 hours to an event only to find the batteries drained?


----------



## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Not at all. It offers no real performance advantage, and I say this as a *big* fan of eTap, and someone who will probably be an early adopter when they come out with a disc version, most just because I want to spend some real time on it rather than test riding demo bikes. I still expect to prefer Shimano just because of the difference in braking, but who knows. I'll have to spend a half season on it before I really know.


----------



## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

asgelle said:


> Of the 18 teams on the World Tour, how many pay for their drivetrain components?


None, they all get paid to use what they are using


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

masont said:


> Not at all. It offers no real performance advantage, and I say this as a *big* fan of eTap, and someone who will probably be an early adopter when they come out with a disc version, most just because I want to spend some real time on it rather than test riding demo bikes. I still expect to prefer Shimano just because of the difference in braking, but who knows. I'll have to spend a half season on it before I really know.


It's actually a performance disadvantage. Just read any review or watch any review video. The rear mech shifts pretty slow and you can not speed it up. For someone like me that shifts up to 3 or 4 gears at a time in the back constantly this is a performance disadvantage for sure. With Di2 I can dump or jump 4 gears in the back in less than a pedal stroke.

There will be little annoyances for some. You won't be able to use your levers to check or make sure of your gear anymore. You will be forced to actually look down and see what you're in. I think every one of us has clicked that left shifter button while climbing just to make sure we're in the small ring. In fact I'm sure that for many this is a habit. If you're climbing and click the buttons just to be sure you'll be forced to try to shift to the big ring, then you'll have to click them both again to cancel after waiting a bit. 

It's not all roses and cupcakes and there is for sure room for improvement. Biggest problem it has is price right now. I can find full Ultegra Di2 for under a grand.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

vagabondcyclist said:


> I don't think so. It's not much lighter. It's new and a lot of people will wait for the second year or 2nd generation. Overall, I like the idea, but I'm not jumping on the bandwagon yet.
> 
> There are still some small quirks that may be worked out in the 2nd generation. For example, SRAM recommends that users remove the batteries for travel since the sleep mode will wake up when the bike is being transported. While I wouldn't remove the batteries for the 10-30 minute trip across town, I could see removing and keeping track of the batteries for longer trips to become tiresome. How many people will travel 8-10 hours to an event only to find the batteries drained?


what will be shimano's big thing when they update dura ace then?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Maybe the hipsters on their fixies are right after all.


----------



## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

My take on this whole argument of a system being obsolete, is no groupset will be obsolete mechanical, electronic, or hydraulic.

Every groupset has its needs and purpose.
take shimano 105, this is an entry level system everyone can and should use when they get into cycling. The shifting and performance are good enough for casual rides.

Groupset performance: can be boiled down to a few things
Knowledge of how to install and use it
The condition all the components are kept it
a rider who has the experience to understand its high points and low points.

For example
The 105 groupset is on my bike locked in my trainer. In no way would i spend money on groupset that isnt going to be racing, if i am doing an erg workout i dont need to shift.

I have sram force 22 i use outdoors, would i go full red? Sure if i had the funds to do so.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

pittcanna said:


> My take on this whole argument of a system being obsolete, is no groupset will be obsolete mechanical, electronic, or hydraulic.
> 
> For example
> The 105 groupset is on my bike locked in my trainer. In no way would i spend money on groupset that isnt going to be racing, if i am doing an erg workout i dont need to shift.
> ...


That's an interesting perspective, however Shimano 105 and SRAM Force 22 are mechanical and beyond the intended scope of the topic.

The topic is asking the question of eTap rendering Di2 obsolete; both iterations of electronic group sets.


----------



## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

They are within the scope, even though it is apples to oranges. Electronic vs. mechanical. Both do the exact same thing:
Crankset
chain
derailleurs front and rear
shifting levers
brakes

just that the derailleurs act with servo motors, instead of spring and cable.



tvad said:


> That's an interesting perspective, however Shimano 105 and SRAM Force 22 are mechanical and beyond the intended scope of the topic.
> 
> The topic is asking the question of eTap rendering Di2 obsolete; both iterations of electronic group sets.


----------



## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

If you want to spend the money on SRAM eTap, by all means. If you live near a major naval base, though, don't bike within a couple miles of it. Your shifting might stop working until you're out of range.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

pittcanna said:


> They are within the scope, even though it is apples to oranges. Electronic vs. mechanical. Both do the exact same thing:
> Crankset
> chain
> derailleurs front and rear
> ...


No. Sorry. Your observation is beyond the scope of the topic.

It's clear on the face that electronic group sets have not rendered mechanical group sets obsolete. That debate has already been historically proven and put to bed, which is why mechanical group sets were purposely not included in the topic.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SauronHimself said:


> If you want to spend the money on SRAM eTap, by all means. If you live near a major naval base, though, don't bike within a couple miles of it. Your shift might stop working until you're out of range.


Cyclings version of the doldrums?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

tvad said:


> No. Sorry. Your observation is beyond the scope of the topic.
> 
> It's clear on the face that electronic group sets have not rendered mechanical group sets obsolete. That debate has already been historically proven and put to bed, which is why mechanical group sets were purposely not included in the topic.


If electronic hasn't rendered mechanical obsolete why would wireless render wired obsolete?

Bedtime yet?


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

velodog said:


> ...why would wireless render wired obsolete?


Excellent perception of the original question.

What's your opinion?


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

pittcanna said:


> For example
> The 105 groupset is on my bike locked in my trainer. In no way would i spend money on groupset that isnt going to be racing, if i am doing an erg workout i dont need to shift.


Apart from the thread you started a couple weeks ago where you were considering upgrading it?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

tvad said:


> Excellent perception of the original question.
> 
> What's your opinion?


My perception is that it's much ado about nothing.

But I'm more interested in riding my bike than keeping up with the Jonses.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

velodog said:


> My perception is that it's much ado about nothing.


Thanks for your on-topic comment. Please pick up your participation badge on the way out.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

pittcanna said:


> My take on this whole argument of a system being obsolete, is no groupset will be obsolete mechanical, electronic, or hydraulic.
> 
> Every groupset has its needs and purpose.
> take shimano 105, this is an entry level system everyone can and should use when they get into cycling. The shifting and performance are good enough for casual rides.
> ...


Dude, stay on topic. Lol


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

tvad said:


> Thanks for your on-topic comment. Please pick up your participation badge on the way out.


Badges?


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

velodog said:


> Badges?


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to velodog again."


----------



## Oasisbill (Jan 15, 2011)

Marc said:


> Ever try to retrofit a bike made for mechanical wire shifting to electronic?
> 
> In the cases it can be done...it uglies things up, badly. Then there's lots of frameset cases where it cannot be done at all due to frame design.
> 
> ...


I wish shimano would sponsor more teams but the reality is they don't need the advertising, as the have already annihilated the opposition.


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

velodog said:


> Badges?



Yes, badges!


----------



## oberwil (Jun 18, 2005)

Levi Leipeheimer was using the group for the last two years and just broke a local double century record, 200 miles, 16K climbing, in 10 hrs flat on Etap. Yeah it works.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

oberwil said:


> Levi Leipeheimer was using the group for the last two years and just broke a local double century record, 200 miles, 16K climbing, in 10 hrs flat on Etap. Yeah it works.


I'm pretty sure that's the lingering affects from PEDs and not E Tap doing the work there.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

deviousalex said:


> I'm pretty sure that's the lingering affects from PEDs and not E Tap doing the work there.


Something that we can agree on


----------



## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Marc said:


> Try retrofitting a cabled bike for electronic...if it can be done (*and these days lots of times it cannot*), it is frustrating and/or ugly. Wireless means less cable fishing and retrofitting worries.


Having recently (2 or 3 years ago) retrofitted a cabled bike for electronic, I don't understand what the big deal is: You drill 3 holes, and yes you spend one exasperating/frustrating afternoon cable fishing, but then you're done. And that's for an _internal_ retrofit; if you were willing to live with the admittedly less elegant (read: butt-ugly) externally wired electronic shifting the entire process would take less time than changing your bar tape.

...well, except that you would then have to change your bar tape anyhow. But I digress.


----------



## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Trek_5200 said:


> I'm also wondering if a wireless system will have any potential issues with lost signals either when new or over time.


^^^This. There are numerous wireless tx/rx protocols in use by a vast variety of industries, all far more mature than electronic shifting for bicycles...and not _one_ of them is 100% reliable, foolproof, or insusceptible to interference. I understand that missing a shift on a club ride probably isn't a life-or-death situation, but I'm still not certain why anyone would want to embrace a potentially less reliable system for the added advantage of..._what_?

Is zero wires really that much more attractive than the minimal wires of a well-installed internally wired electronic groupset? Even when compounded by the added hassle of multiple batteries? Exactly _what problem_ is wireless shifting trying to solve?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Bob Ross said:


> but I'm still not certain why anyone would want to embrace a potentially less reliable system for the added advantage of..._what_?
> 
> Is zero wires really that much more attractive than the minimal wires of a well-installed internally wired electronic groupset? Even when compounded by the added hassle of multiple batteries? Exactly _what problem_ is wireless shifting trying to solve?


Lookit me, I got the newest and the bestest.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Bob Ross said:


> Exactly _what problem_ is wireless shifting trying to solve?


That's a key question.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Bob Ross said:


> Exactly _what problem_ is wireless shifting trying to solve?


* SRAM being late to the game by going "oh like shiny and new!". At this point they HAD to do something different.

* Not interfering on Shimano's patents (like charging via the junction box, hence Campy needs a 3rd hole)

* The mechanics job of setting up the bike. Is it easier than Di2? Sure. But Di2 you do it once and it's done.


----------



## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

OP,
In a word, "Yes." If eTap works as advertised the price will come down, the technology will trickle down to lower groups, and it will replace wired systems. All other manufacturers will eventually follow.

As for me ...

I am already thinking of my next build ... it's what I do.

I am thinking of building a 1x11 (50t up front with 11-32; 50x32 low is equal to 39x25) using only the SRAM eTap rear derailleur (when they make it available in a WiFli) and shifters. I want to use a No.22 Reactor frameset (with no concession to internal/external cables or wiring). If I can find a 'hack' to use buttons instead of SRAM eTap shifters; I will do so. 

I will use my old 10-11 speed parts (crank, brakes, cassette, wheels) for the rest of the build. 

No holes. No wiring. Two brake cables. Tres simple and clean.

Very respectfully, Tim


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

mrwirey said:


> I am thinking of building a 1x11 (50t up front with 11-32; 50x32 low is equal to 39x25) using only the SRAM eTap rear derailleur (when they make it available in a WiFli) and shifters. I want to use a No.22 Reactor frameset (with no concession to internal/external cables or wiring). If I can find a 'hack' to use buttons instead of SRAM eTap shifters; I will do so.


From my understanding, as it stands it's not possible to use the system without the front derailleur in place. I guess you could put it on too high and just have it sit there.


----------



## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

deviousalex said:


> From my understanding, as it stands it's not possible to use the system without the front derailleur in place. I guess you could put it on too high and just have it sit there.


deviousalex,

I'm betting SRAM will come out with a 1x setup for CX without a front derailleur and with a long cage rear derailleur. That will meet my needs perfectly. I really only want a rear derailleur and a way to shift it wirelessly. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Very respectfully, Tim


----------



## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I thought it was the rear derailleur that was mandatory?


----------

