# Chain Tools Campy vs Park



## MTBDad

Trying to decide between the beautiful (but crazy expensive) Campy 11-speed chain tool or going with the Park CT-11 / CT-4.2 combo. I know either way this a crazy amount of $$$ for chain tools, but at $100 per Record chain, might as well make sure they are going to be properly installed for maximum life and my safety. Thanx in advance for any thoughts!


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## Got Time

Wow, $100 per chain? I bought 2 for that.

Anyway, three options:

- Park Tools: requires patience and good eyesight to get it right.

- Campagnolo 11-speed chaintool: works much better (I bought it for less than $200, still crazy expensive).

- get something like "Super Link", it's simple to (dis)assemble and doesn't need special tools.

I have (had) 11-speed chains installed with all methods and encountered no problems during use, but "YMMV".


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## bikerjohn64

Got Time said:


> - get something like "Super Link", it's simple to (dis)assemble and doesn't need special tools.


This would be my first thought. Does KMC make a missing link for 11 sp?

I use one for my Campy 10 and it works like a charm. 

If they do; you won't need to invest in the expensive chain tool and won't require getting the "peening" tool either. 

I think the pin diameter is the same on the 11 sp so just a chain tool to dismantle the chain with the use of a missing link should do? 

Perhaps someone can verify this for me. I don't run 11's so not 100% certain.


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## Got Time

bikerjohn64 said:


> Does KMC make a missing link for 11 sp?


I don't know about KMC, I have a "Super Link" that Lickbike included when I bought my first 11 speed group. The "manual" says Forster (http://www.forstertool.com/) X11.2.


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## Salsa_Lover

I have KMC 11 speed link on all my Campagnolo 11 bikes, works well.


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## Pirx

Got Time said:


> Wow, $100 per chain? I bought 2 for that.


Well, I haven't seen them for $50 anywhere yet, but around $80 seems to be the going rate. When I consider that I just changed my Record chain that was getting close to borderline according to Campy specs, after riding it for a mere 6,200 miles (not a typo), that's not a bad cost per mile at all. I hear Shimano chains are typically done after 2000 miles or so...


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## Got Time

Ribble had 11 speed Record chains for about $50, now the price may be a bit higher due to the exchange rate.


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## tigoat

I also use KMC missing link 11 speed master link with my 11 speed drivetrain without a problem. Why even bother pinning the chain with an unnessesary expensive tool?


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## MTBDad

*Resolved*

Ordered the Campy tool. The right tool for the job!! Thank you again for your thoughts!! I think I paid $90 for my last Record Chain. There is some stuff I buy from the LBS.


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## ejprez

I bought an Icetoolz campy chain tool and it works great and it retails for $25!!! I do have the KMC links too and those work great and good to have a spare in the saddle bag just in case.


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## C-40

*cheap chains...*

Ribble has Chorus chains for about $37 and Record for about $46.

Chains at Ribble Cycles

As for the chain life, Campy suggests using calipers to check between the rollers, over a length of 5.200 inch (when new). They suggest trashing the chain when the reading increases to 5.220 inch, or only about .4%. Even with the best of care, that will occur long before 6,000 miles.

That method of measuring is nothing like measuring the chain for true elongation, with a precision 12" rule, between the pins. If you do that, then indeed, you'll find the elongation to be very low, even after 6,000 miles. I've measured as little as .15%. Unfortunately, the rollers will be totally shot and the side clearance about twice that of a new chain. Also, you're likely to get chain skip when a new chain is installed. Using only one chain for that long is a bad idea. I know this because I've done it and got chain skip. It's more cost effective to alternate the use of 2-3 chains and extend the life of the cassette.


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## Pablo

C-40 said:


> Ribble has Chorus chains for about $37 and Record for about $46.
> 
> Chains at Ribble Cycles
> 
> As for the chain life, Campy suggests using calipers to check between the rollers, over a length of 5.200 inch (when new). They suggest trashing the chain when the reading increases to 5.220 inch, or only about .4%. Even with the best of care, that will occur long before 6,000 miles.
> 
> That method of measuring is nothing like measuring the chain for true elongation, with a precision 12" rule, between the pins. If you do that, then indeed, you'll find the elongation to be very low, even after 6,000 miles. I've measured as little as .15%. Unfortunately, the rollers will be totally shot and the side clearance about twice that of a new chain. Also, you're likely to get chain skip when a new chain is installed. Using only one chain for that long is a bad idea. I know this because I've done it and got chain skip. It's more cost effective to alternate the use of 2-3 chains and extend the life of the cassette.


How much more cost effective are we talking here? I've heard that one option is just to wear everything out together, assuming that you don't have multiple wheel sets.


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## PlatyPius

Salsa_Lover said:


> I have KMC 11 speed link on all my Campagnolo 11 bikes, works well.


I use KMC chains on all of my Campy bikes. Much cheaper.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk


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## bikerjohn64

Pablo said:


> How much more cost effective are we talking here? I've heard that one option is just to wear everything out together, assuming that you don't have multiple wheel sets.


Bad idea. 

Lets say that a chain lasts 5000km; then you won't get more than another 1000km before you components are worn out. 

It's the stretched out chain that wears out your components. The dimension of the pin centers stretch; which then wears the cupped portions of the teeth on the cassettes and rings making them shaped like sharks fins. 

An 11 speed cassette for Campy Record can run up to $300 depending on where you buy it. A new chain will cost anywhere between $40-80 depending on the level and where you buy it. 

Not to mention that you will also have to replace the chainrings and that will set you back another $125-200. 

Replacing a worn or wearing chain is much cheaper in the long run; not to mention much easier to do. 

Whenever I see chains on sale; I will buy at least one and have it as a back up. I now have 2 new chains waiting to go.


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## cda 455

bikerjohn64 said:


> Bad idea.
> 
> *Lets say that a chain lasts 5000km; then you won't get more than another 1000km before you components are worn out.
> 
> It's the stretched out chain that wears out your components. The dimension of the pin centers stretch; which then wears the cupped portions of the teeth on the cassettes and rings making them shaped like sharks fins. *
> 
> An 11 speed cassette for Campy Record can run up to $300 depending on where you buy it. A new chain will cost anywhere between $40-80 depending on the level and where you buy it.
> 
> Not to mention that you will also have to replace the chainrings and that will set you back another $125-200.
> 
> Replacing a worn or wearing chain is much cheaper in the long run; not to mention much easier to do.
> 
> Whenever I see chains on sale; I will buy at least one and have it as a back up. I now have 2 new chains waiting to go.



Very interesting.


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## C-40

*well...*



Pablo said:


> How much more cost effective are we talking here? I've heard that one option is just to wear everything out together, assuming that you don't have multiple wheel sets.


I expect to get 12,000 miles from three (Campy 11) chains and one (Chorus) cassette. If the chains are $40 each and the cassette is about $120, then that's $240. You could also use only one chain and cassette for 6,000 miles, then toss both. That's $160 for 6,000 miles. My cost is 1/3 less.

Using a single chain until it's worn the cassette past the point of mating with a new chain is rarely cost effective. In the case of brands other than Campy, the chain will elongate much more quickly and the point of no return could be as little as 3-4,000 miles.

Ti cogs are another story. I've used a single Campy 10 chain with Ti cogs and worn them severely in only 4,000 miles. I've never bought a Record cassette since then. An SR 11 cassette could cost 4-6 times as much to use as Chorus.


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## Pirx

C-40 said:


> As for the chain life, Campy suggests using calipers to check between the rollers, over a length of 5.200 inch (when new). They suggest trashing the chain when the reading increases to 5.220 inch, or only about .4%. Even with the best of care, that will occur long before 6,000 miles.
> 
> That method of measuring is nothing like measuring the chain for true elongation, with a precision 12" rule, between the pins. If you do that, then indeed, you'll find the elongation to be very low, even after 6,000 miles. I've measured as little as .15%. Unfortunately, the rollers will be totally shot and the side clearance about twice that of a new chain. Also, you're likely to get chain skip when a new chain is installed. Using only one chain for that long is a bad idea. I know this because I've done it and got chain skip. It's more cost effective to alternate the use of 2-3 chains and extend the life of the cassette.


I measured using a digital caliper, and according to Campy's manual, like so:

View attachment 254754



So Campy gives the chain up to 5,000 miles, and I got 6,200. Given that there was essentially zero miles on wet roads, and some IMO very good lubricant (Chain-L No. 5), that's not out of reason at all. I had 132.6mm between some of the links, exactly, which is borderline. Chain and rollers looked decent, so did my cogs, including the titanium ones. No skipping, no issues of any kind. I do admit that I changed the cassette with the chain just for good measure. The cassette has maybe about 5000 miles on it.


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## cda 455

Pirx said:


> I measured using a digital caliper, and according to Campy's manual, like so:
> 
> View attachment 254754
> 
> 
> 
> So Campy gives the chain up to 5,000 miles, and I got 6,200. Given that there was essentially zero miles on wet roads, and some IMO very good lubricant (Chain-L No. 5), that's not out of reason at all. I had 132.6mm between some of the links, exactly, which is borderline. Chain and rollers looked decent, so did my cogs, including the titanium ones. No skipping, no issues of any kind. I do admit that I changed the cassette with the chain just for good measure. The cassette has maybe about 5000 miles on it.



More super awesome tech!

Thanks for sharing  !


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## thosj

My 2 cents on chains and big miles. This all IMHO, of course-)

Camp chains are WAY superior, even Veloce chains which are very reasonably priced. I wasted YEARS riding KMC chains, false economy.

I ride 3 bikes, 2 10, 1 11. I rotate 3 Camp chains on each bike 1500 miles, rotate chains. 1500 chosen because this was the mileage on the first chain when I adapted this methodology (thanks C-40) I use Pro-Link.

My real experience is with links. I'm a machinist, albeit retired (!), so measuring comes naturally, and I've measured and measured Forster SuperLinks and the ONLY difference in SuperLink 10 and 11 is the blue paint on the pins. No difference I can detect other than packaging and blue paint, unless they've changed in the last year. I emailed them and went ignored. So, although they work OK on 10 speed, they make a slight click going thru the rear derailleur, almost more felt than heard. I've switched to all KMC Missing Links, 10 and 11. They are the correct width for their respective chains, lock well, work and last great. Park tool to make disassembly a bit easier, but a needle nose pliers on opposite sides gets them apart, too.

Back to riding!!


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## SubRider

KMC refers to them as "open" and "close" pliers.

I take it that disassembly requires the open pliers. 
Correct?


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## C-40

*info...*

There is only one type of master link plier. It squeezes the rollers together, to release the master link.

Park Tool Co. » MLP-1 : Master Link Pliers : Chain

If force is needed when installing the link, follow SRAM's instructions to apply pedal pressure, with the link on the upper run of the chain.


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## SubRider

KMC sells two types. 
The "open" KMC tool looks like the Park tool, which costs a little more.


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## flatlander_48

SubRider said:


> KMC refers to them as "open" and "close" pliers.
> 
> I take it that disassembly requires the open pliers.
> Correct?


Yes, not unlike how you view removing an internal snap ring.

I bought both tools as I have arthritic hands. As i remember, they sold for $12 to $15 each. I take them with me when I travel with my bike. When I ran 10sp Centaur I used a Wippermann chain and Connex Link, but as far as I know, they still have not offered an 11sp chain. Perhaps with Shimano coming on board with 11sp, that may change their minds.


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## willieboy

I got 3,600 miles each out of my first two record chains on a SR11 drivetrain. I keep them clean and lubed as a rule and measure them often. Just installed my third chain and wouldn't you know it. I have a small skip on one cog. Im going to be installing a Chorus cassette and jockey wheels shortly. I guess my goal of 10,000 miles out of my SR11 cassette isn't going to happen this time. 
I will be installing new chains a little more often from now on. Maybe I can get 10k out of the new Chorus cassette 

As far as the tool portion, my LBS does the chain swap for $8.00. If I was more mechanically able I might by the tool but I figure I can have 10-15 of them swapped for the same dollar amount


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