# Tubeless Dilemma



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

OK, I am getting sick of fixing tube flats on my gravel bike and going to go TUBE LESS!!!! I really can't believe it!
.... so should I do...
STANS
SLIME
????
.... and how much should I put in a 44mm x700 wheel. ...any other pointers?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

duriel said:


> OK, I am getting sick of fixing tube flats on my gravel bike and going to go TUBE LESS!!!! I really can't believe it!
> .... so should I do...
> STANS
> SLIME
> ...


I’m not anti-tubeless but why switch? Do you know why you are getting an intolerable amount of flats on tubes? It strikes me as a little weird and possibly something fixable? Those are no fat bike tires but still, at the right pressure I can’t see changing as a solution unless you know the reason for the flatting? 


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I know the reason..... goat heads!


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

duriel said:


> I know the reason..... goat heads!


Ohhhh! Goat Heads. Done. F Goat Heads. Just put solid polyurethane wheels on it... haha


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

U are not much help.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

duriel said:


> U are not much help.


No help. Goat Heads are awful... 


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

The internet consensus seems to prefer Orange Seal, but I've only used Stans the 4-5 years I've been tubeless and had no issues. If goatheads are the source of your pains, your pains will go away with tubeless. Put about 2 oz of sealant in each wheel. And I would recommend once a year maintenance of adding sealant and possibly cleaning the old sealant out if it's been more than two seasons since doing so.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I heard good things about Caffeelatex. I have my doubts that any tire over 60psi will seal well with any sealant if you get a significant cut/puncture. Disclaimer, I don't personally use sealant (except unsuccessfully in tubulars).


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

duriel said:


> OK, I am getting sick of fixing tube flats on my gravel bike and going to go TUBE LESS!!!! I really can't believe it!
> .... so should I do...
> STANS
> SLIME
> ????


I've been tubeless for ~6yrs. Almost solely on Orange Seal (Endurance). I haven't had one single flat in 6yrs.




> .... and how much should I put in a 44mm x700 wheel.


According to the Orange Seal chart, about 3-4oz













> ...any other pointers?


Do you have an air compressor or tubeless pump?


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## barelfly (Nov 7, 2008)

I use Stans, but that is all I have tried. It’s worked great for me for the time I’ve been running tubeless on my gravel and MTB. I also use Stans in my tubes on my road bike. I don’t care about the added weight of what it might be, it’s helped cut down on flatting on the road bike since i went back to adding it in. 

For me, it’s been easy to add via the stem. I have one of the small 2oz bottles that I use to add, with just enough of a cut in the nozzle to put inside the stem. Works like a charm.


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## tjc (Aug 17, 2010)

Air compressor is a great tip, really helps seat the tire bead prior to adding sealant through the valve stem. Stans makes an injector (just a syringe) to help get into valve without any mess - little squirt bottle would do the same. I prefer the Orange Seal Endurance, but have used others in the past when cheaper deal (even mixed them in the tire when topping off) with no problems. Normally I only add about half an ounce per wheel (road tires) and try to check once a month with a little dip stick to make sure it has not completely dried up. Takes a bit more sealant when installing a new tire, less as time goes by.


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## skolnikbill (Nov 15, 2021)

Make sure you shake the hell out of any sealant prior to putting it into your tire, otherwise you will be bitching that sealant doesn't work.


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## Stogaguy (Feb 11, 2006)

skolnikbill said:


> Make sure you shake the hell out of any sealant prior to putting it into your tire, otherwise you will be bitching that sealant doesn't work.


+1 on the shaking thing.

I will also chime in on Orange Seal. Good stuff. No flats. My advice:

1. Make sure you check the sealant level every few months and top up if needed.

2. Have spare valve cores available as the sealant tend to gum up the cores. Replacing them is just the easiest fix.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

My tubeless tires, OS Enduro & Enve kit are coming today. The tires are more like light duty MBike tires with side/tread underprotection.
The rims have these little ridges about 1/8" in from the outside rim. I'm thinking of running the tape NOT OVER THESE, as it will just make the tire tighter.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

duriel said:


> My tubeless tires, OS Enduro & Enve kit are coming today. The tires are more like light duty MBike tires with side/tread underprotection.
> The rims have these little ridges about 1/8" in from the outside rim. I'm thinking of running the tape NOT OVER THESE, as it will just make the tire tighter.


Like this (middle rim)? Yea taping over the lip can make the tire a real bitch. A friend of mine had narrow rims and she could only get wide tape that went from edge to edge. Tires were a nightmare.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I think they are more like the right ones, the ridges are not that big, about 1/32" height & width. We'll see how tight the tires are when they get here. I ordered a 'road' enve kit which has narrower tape, but may take a knife to it to limit it's width.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

I have recently set up my first two pairs of tubeless wheels. A mechanic friend gave me a tip which I found helpful.

After applying the rim tape and tire install a tube and pump it up. Leave it that way for 15-20 minutes then remove the tube and continue with the setup. It will help set the rim tape the in the bed.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I got the tires on 700 x 40, kinda mbike tread, tubeless. I got the front one on with a auto em pump, the rear didn't work, had to get a 6 gal air comp system. ... ah, they don't come with a hose, so to HDepot twice for that. I used one layer of tape and did JSR's trick. Other than that they are ready for the first ride.
They recommend tape be 2mm wider than the rim, and it was, so I just went over the ridges, the tires were not super tight. Beads poped at about 35 #'s.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

So, all this purchasing of tank/compressors, hoses, special rim tape, and sealant which needs special handling, and a tricky mounting procedure (not to mention the inherent mess should you screw up), all to......what?....., save 20g over the weight of a tube on a wheel? 

Wow, technology marches onward!!!


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

No Time Toulouse said:


> So, all this purchasing of tank/compressors, hoses, special rim tape, and sealant which needs special handling, and a tricky mounting procedure (not to mention the inherent mess should you screw up), all to......what?....., save 20g over the weight of a tube on a wheel?


Reading comprehension. He never said anything about weight. 
(Hint: It's his very first sentence)


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Took them out yesterday to the top of the mtn. On the last 3 rides up there I had 2 flats each time. This ride, 'ZERO' flats, although a couple of hicks had a hard time figuring out what to do when they meet a gravel rider on a gravel road. 
Seems like it's going to work.


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## barelfly (Nov 7, 2008)

No Time Toulouse said:


> So, all this purchasing of tank/compressors, hoses, special rim tape, and sealant which needs special handling, and a tricky mounting procedure (not to mention the inherent mess should you screw up), all to......what?....., save 20g over the weight of a tube on a wheel?
> 
> Wow, technology marches onward!!!


Tank/compressor provides so much more than just assistance with Tubeless. 

and, it’s not that tricky. And not messy if you add sealant via the valve. 

marching…….


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

barelfly said:


> Tank/compressor provides so much more than just assistance with Tubeless.
> 
> and, it’s not that tricky. And not messy if you add sealant via the valve.
> 
> marching…….


And the ability to run lower pressure far outweighs the 20g saved, especially for MTB and gravel bikes. And if you live in goathead country, tubeless is a huge advantage.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm finding that if you run lower pressures, the tires leak and go flat.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

duriel said:


> I'm finding that if you run lower pressures, the tires leak and go flat.


How low? What sealant are you using? Are you letting them sit for long periods between use?
I don't have that problem unless my bikes sit for a long time (but then tubes do that too). 
People run MTB tubeless at 15 – 30 psi without going flat.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Some people have problems, I'm one of them. OSendurance, 2 days, they had 35# in them and went flat. I pumped them up to 60# again, one was 50# this morning, so filled it back up, hope they seat soon.


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## Blackyoda56 (Dec 8, 2021)

PBL450 said:


> I’m not anti-tubeless but why switch? Do you know why you are getting an intolerable amount of flats on tubes? It strikes me as a little weird and possibly something fixable? Those are no fat bike tires but still, at the right pressure I can’t see changing as a solution unless you know the reason for the flatting?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Put 3 ounces of Orange Seal Endurance in your 44mm gravel tire and call it a day. Run the correct tire pressure, a good balance between comfort and control somewhere in the 34 to 40 psi range should do it, though road feel is the best indicator.


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## barelfly (Nov 7, 2008)

It may be a seating issue. I don’t lose air pressure like that, but I’m not running 60#. 30 at the most on my two tubeless set ups, with 24-26 the majority of the time. I don’t have to pump them up for every ride.

check the bead on each side, see if you see any leaks. Perhaps spray some soapy water around the rim/bead and see if there is anything bubbling? 

Also, ensure your valve is seated and the core is tight. Hopefully it seals up and you don’t lose pressure like that. 

And, go ride the bike a bit so the sealant spins around the tire, that helps as well.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I hear ya! I set them up and they held air, then I reduced to 34-40# for riding about a week later. Did 2 rides about 3-4 days apart, front seemed soft at the end of the second ride. It was then sitting for a week then both tires went down. I put 50# in both and sprayed with windex, leaks everywhere, stem nut, beads, nipples. Then I started the fix'in. Filled to 60#, twirled and bounced about 2 min. Over night one was still good, one was a little down, so aired it back to 60# and bounced/twirled again. Seem to be holding, but may have to add some more juice (I may have went a little lean on the juice on the initial build), then change system to....
End of ride 60# till the next ride then reduce to riding #'s, repeat at end of ride.


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## jo.bertel (Nov 24, 2021)

duriel said:


> I hear ya! I set them up and they held air, then I reduced to 34-40# for riding about a week later. Did 2 rides about 3-4 days apart, front seemed soft at the end of the second ride. It was then sitting for a week then both tires went down. I put 50# in both and sprayed with windex, leaks everywhere, stem nut, beads, nipples. Then I started the fix'in. Filled to 60#, twirled and bounced about 2 min. Over night one was still good, one was a little down, so aired it back to 60# and bounced/twirled again. Seem to be holding, but may have to add some more juice (I may have went a little lean on the juice on the initial build), then change system to....
> End of ride 60# till the next ride then reduce to riding #'s, repeat at end of ride.


My rear tire (700/32 Gravel King on HED wheels) was loosing pressure overnight. Finally fixed by adding a little sealant.

@No Time When I made the switch to tubeless I was amazed at the improvement in ride quality.


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## Thindman70 (Dec 8, 2021)

duriel said:


> OK, I am getting sick of fixing tube flats on my gravel bike and going to go TUBE LESS!!!! I really can't believe it!
> .... so should I do...
> STANS
> SLIME
> ...





duriel said:


> OK, I am getting sick of fixing tube flats on my gravel bike and going to go TUBE LESS!!!! I really can't believe it!
> .... so should I do...
> STANS
> SLIME
> ...


Coming from a bike shop background and being an avid mountain bike/gravel road rider, it’s not necessarily the brand that makes the difference. It’s going to be how much sealant you use and the amount of time you ride between refills. About 99% of the time if you put 2 oz. of sealant in your tire, you’re going to be good for about 2-3 months of riding. That is of course providing that your wheel/tire is 100% sealed at the time you add your sealant. If there’s a small leak and outside air is getting to your freshly applied sealant, then that sealant is not going to last as long. Air dries out the sealant, that’s what sealant is designed to do. It’s supposed to clog the hole when it squirts out due to a puncture. Same thing if your wheel system is not 100% sealed then your sealant dries out inside the tire. Make sense? So take my advice and make sure your tubeless wheelset is 100% sealed from the beginning and reapply your sealant every 2-3 months during riding season.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

skolnikbill said:


> Make sure you shake the hell out of any sealant prior to putting it into your tire, otherwise you will be bitching that sealant doesn't work.


Pro tip - put a couple of links of old chain or a couple of bolts in the bottle of sealant. When you shake it up it helps to break up settled particulate in the bottom of the bottle quickly, like the ball i a can of spray paint.



No Time Toulouse said:


> So, all this purchasing of tank/compressors, hoses, special rim tape, and sealant which needs special handling, and a tricky mounting procedure (not to mention the inherent mess should you screw up), all to......what?....., save 20g over the weight of a tube on a wheel?
> 
> Wow, technology marches onward!!!


There's a lot more benefit to it than that (and it saves more than 20g/wheel). Most tubeless setups no longer need compressors or compressed air, either. The last several sets I've set up seated easily with just a floor pump. 

Most who use it agree that the downsides (messy it you need to do a road side repair, sealant can go "stale" if not maintained) are outweighed by the benefits. "Don't knock it until you've tried it", as they say...


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## aizu1 (Jan 5, 2005)

You could always go with tubes with replaceable valve stems and add Stans to the tubes. I do that on some skinny road bike tires. As for gravel and mtb, I use both Orange seal and Stans with pretty good success.


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## Bnystrom (Oct 27, 2007)

Duriel, based on the symptoms you described (leaks everywhere) it's quite possible that the leaks you're experiencing are due to not using rim tape that covers the rim bead-to-bead, as I ran into this same situation recently. The advantage of using full width rim tape is that the tire seals to the _tape_ and it doesn't matter if the tape seals to the rim perfectly or not. All that matters is that you have some overlap at the tape seam and the valve seals tightly. 

With narrow tape, the tape must form a seal to the rim all the way around on both sides of the tape. If there are any leaks under the tape, leaks in the rim seam, or breather holes that don't get completely covered, you'll see leaks all over the place. I had one pair of wheels that absolutely refused to seal until I installed full-width rim tape and the wider tape solved the problem _instantly_.

If you're worried about getting the tires to seat with full-width rim tape, lube the beads with soapy water or the sealant you're using before airing them up for the first time. Once they've had pressure in them, stretched a bit and assumed their correct shape, they'll be easier to reinstall if necessary.


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## Bnystrom (Oct 27, 2007)

Aizu1, you're correct about sealant in tubes; I've been doing that for years. I've also used it in road tubulars and in tubeless tires on gravel, mountain and fat bikes. It works in _every_ type of bike tire.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Yea I was thinking of narrow rim tape, but the tires were not super tight.... so I went the full width. Although I did only one layer!
Yesterday evening the front was a little down, so I added more sealant to all, repumped to 60#, 2 minutes of bouncing/flipping. When you shake the sealant, it starts foaming and it is hard to determine how much you are putting in. Judging by the level on the bottle I got 3oz in each wheel 40mm x 700mm.
We will see tomorrow. I think I'm getting close.


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## Bnystrom (Oct 27, 2007)

duriel said:


> Yea I was thinking of narrow rim tape, but the tires were not super tight.... so I went the full width. Although I did only one layer!


With quality rim tape, one layer should be enough.



> Yesterday evening the front was a little down, so I added more sealant to all, repumped to 60#, 2 minutes of bouncing/flipping.


Why are you pumping them up so high? That's around _double_ as much pressure as you probably need and over-pressure makes it more likely that you'll create leaks. If your rim has exposed spoke holes, you can blow the tape out through the holes. Unless you weight 250+ pounds, you shouldn't need more than 40 psi.



> When you shake the sealant, it starts foaming and it is hard to determine how much you are putting in. Judging by the level on the bottle I got 3oz in each wheel 40mm x 700mm.


That's plenty. In that size tire I use about half that much.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

With quality rim tape, one layer should be enough. *I hope so.*

Why are you pumping them up so high? That's around _double_ as much pressure as you probably need and over-pressure makes it more likely that you'll create leaks. If your rim has exposed spoke holes, you can blow the tape out through the holes. Unless you weight 250+ pounds, you shouldn't need more than 40 psi. *cause when i pumped them to 40, they leaked to zero. I'm not riding them there, I'm trying to seal them.*

That's plenty. In that size tire I use about half that much. *That's what I did, it wasn't enough, so I added more to get here.*


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## Bnystrom (Oct 27, 2007)

I think you missed my point. Pumping them up way beyond what's necessary for riding will not seal them; _it's likely to cause more leaks_. Excess sealant isn't a problem other than it can lead to "Stanimals" building up in your tires.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Well, my tires are not flat now. ....so there is that. I don't see how not doing what I did was going to help. They were flat.


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