# Ban Bike Changes



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i just wanna say i hate seeing riders switch bikes for sake of having different equipment for a climb. i know in the old days riders would stop and manual change gearing when they raced single speed. but they didnt have support cars with entire steeds. it took several minutes for them to make the switch, and they did it themselves. 

people obesess over gearing before races, and i believe that decision should be part of the race. it is one thing to change bikes due to a mechanical, but to swap bikes for one with easier gearing at the base of a climb seems sour to me. 

it might be difficult to enforce, much like sticky bottles and seatpost fixes. i can see some riders throwing chains to get a change, but at least it would "look" better. 

dance with who brung ya!


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Agreed. This isn't a safety issue, it's a strategy and a HTFU issue. The bike they choose for the day should be their bike for the entire day, barring a crash or a mechanical.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Agreed - bike changes should be for mechanical issues only, and back-up bikes should be the same spec as the bike that the rider starts the day's riding with.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

or just stick to climbs actually suitable for road bikes.


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## edscueth (Jul 12, 2008)

Agreed, I hate when I see them change bikes, the PGA Tour doesn't even allow players to switch clubs during a round. I don't race, but when my trusty ride breaks down I'm forced to fix it or walk - how nice it be to have a support car!


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Especially since the penalty of catching back on is totally negated since they can basically motor pace the caravan back to the group.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Gotta disagree. Kinda interesting to know that even Contador had to drop to a 34 X 32 for a steep mountain stage. RIders change their clothing, arm warmers, etc (considered bike gear in my book) to accomodate the weather and uphill or dowhill terrain temperature changes. Time trial bikes are clearly a different from conventional road stage cycles. Makes for adding another component to race tactics. These guys have the best, latest bikes and bike gear. As professionals, where results determine your job, you should use the best available tool for the job.


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## climbinthebigring (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't mind the fact that they change bikes. If only one or two riders in the peleton had the option, then ya, I would have a different opinion. But all the GC guys can change bikes if they want to so whats the big deal?


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Opus51569 said:


> Agreed. This isn't a safety issue, it's a strategy and a HTFU issue. The bike they choose for the day should be their bike for the entire day, barring a crash or a mechanical.


You're you're directing a HTFU remark towards pro riders who've been eating enough **** in this Giro already? Be free to tell me how soft they are when you get back from your trip blasting up and down Grossglockner and Zoncolan. 

Oh yeah, "____ had a harder time". Don't act like they wouldn't have opted for such an opportunity if racing today. 

There's nothing cheap about changing a bike - just strategy as you said. If anything, the rider is still at risk of losing time against others who decide not to change bikes. You may claim to have a well-rounded setup to conquer anything, but the demands are different at this level. 

Trivial note: This happens in MotoGP for mid-race weather change, and it's not just for tires. Suspension and engine mapping can widely differ. Should you expect those guys to HTFU ride in the rain on a dry setup? Passing up a swap is like a self-induced problem in both scenarios.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

wow. some people feel strongly about this, on both sides of the fence. 

can i ride up Big Z? im a fatty from iowa/illinois, i can barely tackle an overpass. but when i leave my house i have a bike and gearing appropriate for that days ride. granted, i dont have a car to service me. nor the responsibility of a pro rider. 

i find the moto argument interesting, but that seems more for safety. i can understand riders swapping on a descent if the weather has turned. anyone remember the issues on the poggio a few years back? or the tour last year? tyres with high pressure and oil-slicked road invite road rash. 

the only thing being protected by changing a bike at the bottom of a climb is their time. and they were motor-paced back into the group. they look the other way when riders pace back into the group after a mechanical so "the equipment does not decide the race." changing bikes before an ascent and pacing back up? like i said, it just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

and no, i am not a conti hater. he mentioned switching bike on the descent of Big C, and i brought this up then. i wouldnt have liked to see that, but i can understand if it was for safety. 

i guess you cant switch to a TT bike because of the extentions, so tt specialist cant benefit from this on flat stages...


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

adimiro said:


> Kinda interesting to know that even Contador had to drop to a 34 X 32 for a steep mountain stage.


Where did you find this info? That is an amazing indicator of how tough was this climb.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

KenS said:


> Where did you find this info? That is an amazing indicator of how tough was this climb.


When AC was doing recon on the mountain days before the race. 

He was quoted to have said that.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm 100% against changing bikes. 
One of cycle racing's biggest attractions is that, unlike many other sports, we lesser mortals can compare own efforts to what a top pro does. We can ride the same roads often on the same equipment. This is why the UCI bans technological gizmos (and is right to do so) and has a minimum weight limit. 
Cycling is Man against Man or it is diminished. 
So Gentlemen! - assess the situation - choose your weapons (gearing etc) - throw away your radios - and come out fighting.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

KenS said:


> Where did you find this info? That is an amazing indicator of how tough was this climb.


If you assume Contador plus his bike is about 70kg, then assume he's putting out 400 watts (assumptions from various other forums) then he's only going about 8 miles per hour on the extended 15% grades that were on the Zoncolan. Even on a 39-25 that's around 70 rpms, so not exactly a comfortable cadence for a guy who seems to typically be around 90. That also doesn't account for the numerous short pitches that were as steep as 20%.

With a 34-32 he can go as slow as 6.5 mph without dropping below 80 rpms.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

albert owen said:


> I'm 100% against changing bikes.
> One of cycle racing's biggest attractions is that, unlike many other sports, we lesser mortals can compare own efforts to what a top pro does. We can ride the same roads often on the same equipment. This is why the UCI bans technological gizmos (and is right to do so) and has a minimum weight limit.
> Cycling is Man against Man or it is diminished.
> So Gentlemen! - assess the situation - choose your weapons (gearing etc) - throw away your radios - and come out fighting.


Sounds like you're pitching for something like the IROC race series where all race cars are built the same. The race is determined by driver skill.


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## edscueth (Jul 12, 2008)

Maybe I am in the minority but I personally think it would be exciting to see Pro Racers more dependant on the equipment and not a support car. One bike for the race and they (or their teamates) must carry the supplies they need for that stage. Let's be honest their spoiled, I am not saying it isn't tough but we got to admit they are spoiled. I would rather see them race from point A to point B, first one wins, with no support other then their teamates.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

Thanks cda455 and SilasCL for the info about Contador's bike gearing.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

*Bike Change Question*

So Bertie switches to a new bike at the start of a big climb. Are these bikes pre-race-inspected or post-race-inspected to insure that they meet all UCI requirements?


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## medimond (Apr 26, 2009)

Since the rules allow it ... it's fair game.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

KenS said:


> So Bertie switches to a new bike at the start of a big climb. Are these bikes pre-race-inspected or post-race-inspected to insure that they meet all UCI requirements?


They are now , I believe, after the whole electric motor assist issue.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

edscueth said:


> Maybe I am in the minority but I personally think it would be exciting to see Pro Racers more dependant on the equipment and not a support car. One bike for the race and they (or their teamates) must carry the supplies they need for that stage. Let's be honest their spoiled, I am not saying it isn't tough but we got to admit they are spoiled. I would rather see them race from point A to point B, first one wins, with no support other then their teamates.


It sounds like watching brevets would be more to your liking.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Ok, how many people who hate that Contador changed a bike would have cheered if Nibali, Armstrong, etc. did? 

The hating on Contador is getting old. 

As for the bike change, I support it, although makes ya wonder if there could have been something done to give them a functional set of cogs to do the job start to finish. 

I have a bike ride I do once or twice a month with some hills that are around 18% (according to the Garmin) and if I were racing up them, I'd want a similar gear ratio. At my weight and power, I'm grinding in a 34x23 at about 60rpm for those steep grades.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

spade2you said:


> As for the bike change, I support it, although makes ya wonder if there could have been something done to give them a functional set of cogs to do the job start to finish.


Are the pro's allowed to have custom cassettes? 


Example: Have Action-Tec make a 9 speed cassette just for the mountains, etc.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I'm fine with them changing bikes. As long as the bikes are within race tolerances.


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## shoegazer (Nov 2, 2007)

den bakker said:


> it sounds like watching brevets would be more to your liking.


rotflmao!!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

cda 455 said:


> Are the pro's allowed to have custom cassettes?
> 
> 
> Example: Have Action-Tec make a 9 speed cassette just for the mountains, etc.


I'm unaware of any rules against such a thing, so I'm inclined to believe they could use anything from a triple to a 55x11.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

Yep. Use what you can. Everyone (of the contenders) has the opportunity to do it. Just seems smart to me. Comparing us going out on a training ride vs the pros racing is apples to oranges IMHO.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Well.. if they want to risk losing the seconds it takes to change bikes let them. I don't really agree with them changing bikes but they're the pros... I'm not. 

Perfect time to attack.. right when your rival is slowing down to change bikes..


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

*Rule Change?*

Freddy Maertens was disqualified for an illegal bike change at one of the spring classics. He knew he was going to be dq'd and let de Vlaeminck sprint past, while the fans booed. 
Why were changes illegal then but legal now?
If bike changes were banned you could still have guys changing wheels so they could use a different cassette.
One way to avoid changes being made for non-mechanical reasons would be to require that both bikes be identical, same gears, same position, same wheels.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

weltyed said:


> i just wanna say i hate seeing riders switch bikes for sake of having different equipment for a climb. i know in the old days riders would stop and manual change gearing when they raced single speed. but they didnt have support cars with entire steeds. it took several minutes for them to make the switch, and they did it themselves.
> 
> people obesess over gearing before races, and i believe that decision should be part of the race. it is one thing to change bikes due to a mechanical, but to swap bikes for one with easier gearing at the base of a climb seems sour to me.
> 
> ...


it's really not about the bike. Let them change if it helps ride with proper gears - 22% of Zoncolan is nothing to joke about - it is very difficult to have a bike that would have gearing for both such climb AND descent. Forcing them to one set of gears for both would lead to more mechanical issues. Do we really want a thrown chain decide the outcome of a Grand Tour? (Has it ever happened before?) 

to people saying HTFU - I would really LOVE to see you ride up 20+ percent gradient on your usual gearing.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

55x11 said:


> to people saying HTFU - I would really LOVE to see you ride up 20+ percent gradient on your usual gearing.


...after about 7 hours in the saddle and after 14 days of racing.  I didn't envy them at all. My ~18% short and steep climbs are tough enough and I'm not racing. 

On a side note, am I starting to sniff out the idea of a "ban" because it's AC we're talking about?


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

I must say I am torn here. I understand that they do have the support and they are pros so they take advantage of every benefit afforded to them (and some that are not, cough cough) but at the same time I don't like seeing the bike change either. Some people made the analogy of car racing and they need to choose thier gearing prior to the race dependant on the track as well so why can't these guys?
I think it would be very strange seeing someone like a Cancellara swicth to a TT bike on one of the flat stages but then everyone would know he planned on attacking so it would be moot but still interesting


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## BassNBrew (Aug 4, 2008)

55x11 said:


> it's really not about the bike. Let them change if it helps ride with proper gears - 22% of Zoncolan is nothing to joke about - it is very difficult to have a bike that would have gearing for both such climb AND descent. Forcing them to one set of gears for both would lead to more mechanical issues. Do we really want a thrown chain decide the outcome of a Grand Tour? (Has it ever happened before?)
> 
> *to people saying HTFU - I would really LOVE to see you ride up 20+ percent gradient on your usual gearing*.


I do it all the time. I've mastered not falling over at 2.9 mph and 30 rpms so I think the pros should be able to handle it. Just ran the numbers and I would need a 17 tooth front cog just to "spin" at 60 rpm. If I wanted to ride at 80 rpms I would need a 13 tooth front cog or a 73 tooth pie plate in back if I stuck with my compact.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

BassNBrew said:


> I do it all the time. I've mastered not falling over at 2.9 mph and 30 rpms so I think the pros should be able to handle it. Just ran the numbers and I would need a 17 tooth front cog just to "spin" at 60 rpm. If I wanted to ride at 80 rpms I would need a 13 tooth front cog or a 73 tooth pie plate in back if I stuck with my compact.


You participate in the Giro all the time? 

I would suspect Contador is also going more than a little faster since this is a race n' stuff.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

they can stop bike changes, once sprinters are stripped of any stage wins for quitting (for training!) when the GT hits the mountains..


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## jswilson64 (May 20, 2008)

Why limit it to during one race or one stage? Make these guys ride the same bike for an entire season, whether it's Paris-Roubaix, a 2-mile prologue, l'Alpe du Huez, whatever. Average Joe's don't have multiple bikes like that.

And they should have to keep the same tires on their bike all season, too. I mean, how many of us can afford so many new tires? 

And they should have to drive to every race in their own car, with the bike stuffed into the back seat, because that's how I have to do it when I go to ride. And then after the race they need to have to jump right back into the car and rush home to ferry a kid from one activity to another.


Sheesh, what a bunch of whiners!


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

spade2you said:


> On a side note, am I starting to sniff out the idea of a "ban" because it's AC we're talking about?


in my case, not at all. i _do _like the way contador rides, for the most part. i like the fact he attacks and doesnt just follow. even when he is in the lead. i like the fact the guy he pulls to the top doesnt trust any pact they may have made and has to look over his shoulder a few times before taking the tape. he got a raw deal riding at astana when they brought back armstrong but was able to still win. "whoever is strongest will get the support." i have seen less bs in the stables on the pbr tour. 

if i saw cancellara get a huge lead during paris-roubaix then swap out for his tt steed on longer paved sections between secteurs, i would be upset.


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## black_box (Jun 7, 2008)

I guess the pros are too cool for a triple?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

BassNBrew said:


> I do it all the time. I've mastered not falling over at 2.9 mph and 30 rpms so I think the pros should be able to handle it. Just ran the numbers and I would need a 17 tooth front cog just to "spin" at 60 rpm. If I wanted to ride at 80 rpms I would need a 13 tooth front cog or a 73 tooth pie plate in back if I stuck with my compact.


And I would LOVE to see you do it - not because I think you can't, but because it will look HILARIOUS! 

Did Mt. Baldy this weekend - with only 15% pitches and saw plenty of very fit riders walk uphill. Possibly because they did 3-4 hours of climbing before hitting the "bowling alley" portion at the top. 

Next we are going to have a fixie rider say how they can ride 20% hills zig-zagging at 10rpm. Just because you can, doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. 

I say let the pros ride whatever gear ratios they need to get the job done. After all, they are competing, not commuting to work or showing off in front of hipster friends. They all can switch bikes, so no advantage gained or lost.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

black_box said:


> I guess the pros are too cool for a triple?


A couple years back when the Vuelta used a peak called Angliru, a fair number of riders used triples. The road hits over 25% at points, IIRC.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

weltyed said:


> if i saw cancellara get a huge lead during paris-roubaix then swap out for his tt steed on longer paved sections between secteurs, i would be upset.


So would the officials since it is not a mass start legal bike.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Apparently Rodriguez started the uphill TT on a TT bike and switched to a road bike when the climb started.

Where's the outrage?


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## minutemaidman (Jun 14, 2010)

BassNBrew said:


> I've mastered not falling over at 2.9 mph and 30 rpms so I think the pros should be able to handle it. Just ran the numbers and I would need a 17 tooth front cog just to "spin" at 60 rpm. If I wanted to ride at 80 rpms I would need a 13 tooth front cog or a 73 tooth pie plate in back if I stuck with my compact.


me too.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

godot said:


> Apparently Rodriguez started the uphill TT on a TT bike and switched to a road bike when the climb started.
> 
> Where's the outrage?


i was gonna mention it, but i thought this thread was better off dead. i am kinda shocked rodriguez would start a mountain ITT on a tt bike. i dont think any other rider tried a tt frame. 

and i need to tell johnhenry the first time i started following the giro i thought anyone dropping out would forfeit their stage wins.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

godot said:


> Apparently Rodriguez started the uphill TT on a TT bike and switched to a road bike when the climb started.
> 
> Where's the outrage?


I thought it was a road bike with aero bars.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

godot said:


> Apparently Rodriguez started the uphill TT on a TT bike and switched to a road bike when the climb started.
> 
> Where's the outrage?


In a TT that barely lasts 30 minutes wasting seconds on a bike change seems pretty stupid. But it's his race.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Ventruck said:


> You're you're directing a HTFU remark towards pro riders who've been eating enough **** in this Giro already? Be free to tell me how soft they are when you get back from your trip blasting up and down Grossglockner and Zoncolan.


First off, let's be clear, my fat azz would be walking, which is kind of my point. If a well-trained, professional cyclist isn't able to make the climb, then either the climb is too tough or the rider isn't. Either way, swapping out bikes isn't the answer. More technology isn't the answer. Let them dance with the one that brung them, and may the best rider win. Sometimes riders DNF because they don't make the time split. It's part of racing. JMHO.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't mind the bike changes. It's available to everyone. What I would like to see is all the TT's on their regular race bikes!


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

As long as all of them can change bikes, I'm fine with it.

Why no TT on TT stages? Why going backwards? I also see all top-forms of competitive cycling as a showcase for technology, in the end cycling is about man AND machine (we need the bike for it to be cycling). We ride better bikes thanks to competitive cycling.

I have a thing against motors on bikes, though.


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## bdaghisallo1 (Sep 25, 2007)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Freddy Maertens was disqualified for an illegal bike change at one of the spring classics. He knew he was going to be dq'd and let de Vlaeminck sprint past, while the fans booed.
> Why were changes illegal then but legal now?
> If bike changes were banned you could still have guys changing wheels so they could use a different cassette.
> One way to avoid changes being made for non-mechanical reasons would be to require that both bikes be identical, same gears, same position, same wheels.



Maertens was DQ'd because he took a spectator's bike when his team car was unable to reach him.

For those who think bike changes should only be allowed for mechanical reasons, how do you determine that it's justified? Do you have a UCI commisaire ride in each team car and inspect the bikes the riders say are broken? Do they take five or ten minutes to do that? Can they themselves take a short test ride to see what the rider is getting at if it's not immediately obvious? What happens to the poor rider who is now minutes behind a fast moving peloton on a flat stage, with little hope of ever catching back up?

There's nothing wrong with it as it is now. The opportunity to change equipment mid-race is open to all riders. The teams determine who gets the special priviledge of having mulitple spares available to them. Most of the domestiques don't get given that chance. Tough ****! They are employees and must do what their bosses say. It's not a human rights issue, for jeepers sake. It's in every team's interest to give their leaders every opportunity to win or profit, and most do.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> In a TT that barely lasts 30 minutes wasting seconds on a bike change seems pretty stupid. But it's his race.


i was scratching my head, too. it was almost like someone forget to tell him it wa an *uphill* time trial and he just rode over from his hotel.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

weltyed said:


> i was scratching my head, too. it was almost like someone forget to tell him it wa an *uphill* time trial and he just rode over from his hotel.


Given that he nearly placed in the top 10 (got 11th), that's practically winning an ITT for El Purito. I'd say his choice of bike might have helped his effort.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

weltyed said:


> i was scratching my head, too. it was almost like someone forget to tell him it wa an *uphill* time trial and he just rode over from his hotel.


there was flatter portion where aero advantage is substantial, and for uphill of course one would like to have low weight. If planned carefully, bike changes can cost no time at all - watch how cyclocross riders do it - they do not even lose their position in the line after going through bike change. It takes some skills and some practice though.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

I'm not a fan of changing bikes. I'm not a fan of TT bikes at all really. Just choose your bike for the race and stick to it. It would be the same for everyone.
BUT TT bikes are a nice little earner for bike manufacturers. They are more susceptible to the vagueries of fashion and claimed "technical improvements" necessitating regular upgrades of barely used kit. Everyone needs to find some payback.
I'd prefer to watch the racing without ad breaks, but then I'd have to "pay to view". Think of TT bikes as a sort of necessary evil that helps pay for the sport.


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## climbinthebigring (Mar 13, 2011)

Well thats a real slippery slope.

If we outlaw TT bikes might as well get rid of aero wheels.

Skinsuits and aero helmets might as well go with the TT bikes

Integrated shifters make it easier on the riders. Might as well outlaw them.

Carbon fiber? pffff. we should have outlawed that years ago..

So in the end, we end up with a steel bike with downtube shifters and mavic openpro's laced to campy hubs, cause that's what they rode in the glory days and we all know that those days were the best. :skep:


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

climbinthebigring said:


> So in the end, we end up with a steel bike with downtube shifters and mavic openpro's laced to campy hubs, cause that's what they rode in the glory days and we all know that those days were the best. :skep:


 Open Pro's came out around 1990, so you would have to reach back further than that.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Forget bike changes, get to the root of the problem, ban the UCI.


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## climbinthebigring (Mar 13, 2011)

raymonda said:


> Open Pro's came out around 1990, so you would have to reach back further than that.


Sorry. But, in my defense I wasn't alive in 1990.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

You guys aren't going far enough. If you happen to break your forks, and you let the apprentice at the village smithy stoke the flames as you weld your fork back together again, you should be disqualified.

On the other hand, during the Zoncolan stage , why couldn't Contador have started the race with his super low ratios? Along with a long cage rear derailleur to allow him those longer gears?


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## agm2 (Sep 18, 2008)

Mapei said:


> On the other hand, during the Zoncolan stage , why couldn't Contador have started the race with his super low ratios? Along with a long cage rear derailleur to allow him those longer gears?


I think that's the question that we should be asking. What on that bike made it so he couldn't ride the entire stage with it?


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

den bakker said:


> It sounds like watching brevets would be more to your liking.


Hey, thanks for the new sig :thumbsup:


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

Wait, did some couch potato just say HTFU to the riders of this year's Giro?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

agm2 said:


> I think that's the question that we should be asking. What on that bike made it so he couldn't ride the entire stage with it?


optimal gear ratio for climbing Zoncolan is not optimal for fast descent and flats.


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