# complex Di2 rear shifting issue....



## thumper8888

it's like in adjustment mode it thinks its in 4th or 6th instead of 5th cog. Hope that makes sense.
Surely there is a simple reset method to get it back in right mode.

I have updated firmware twice.... and there has been much written about how sensitive it is to rear hanger misalignment, but it's not that... for one thing, it clearly gets the distance between each shift perfect for 10 cogs and just wont go down into the 11 cog... for another, i have tried the same group on not one, not two but THREE bike frames, one SPesh and two Cervelo.... and the problem is identical.

More detail: The group is 9070, but this prob applies to ultegra, I'm guessing.
Issue is this: I go through the standard method of starting from scratch on rear shifting adjustment -- go to 5th cog, put it all in adjustment mode, click adjustment uphill toward largest cog until hear noise, then back down four notches of adjustment.
But it then shifts poorly, the chain skipping and skipping, shifting noisily and sometimes not shifting, making noise, then after a second push on shift lever jumping two cogs.... eventaully it gets where its supposed to but its seldom pretty.... this applies to any amount of adjustment one direction or the other within the proper 5th cog... it just cannot be adjusted to work.
Here's the fun part... if I adjust it all the way toward the biggest cog, using all the adjustment clicks, and it jumps up to the 4 instead of the five, and I then take it out of adjustment mode it then shifts like a dream.... getting the spaces between the shifts perfect etc... except that it's like the entire cassette has been moved outboard a full cog.
Meaning, it won't shift into the 11-tooth, and when i shift all 11 shifts the other direction it will clearly be an extra shift beyond the largest (25-tooth) toward the inside because it takes 2 shifts before it downshifts off largest... and that's not a mis-shift because the rest are perfect. It's just up against the inside stop thinking its in an even larger cog than the 25.

the stuff initially worked great, but I suspect that during a round of adjustment I did something stupid. That's the only thing I can think of that could have happened.... but who knows


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## MMsRepBike

thumper8888 said:


> there has been much written about how sensitive it is to rear hanger misalignment, but it's not that.


And you are sure how?

And of course the stops are set correctly right?


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## goodboyr

Why not just start from scratch using the dealers manual as a reference and following it exactly?


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## thumper8888

I HAVE started from scratch as the manual describes. About 40 times.
You start by shifting into cog five, go into adjustment mode, adjust upward until it makes noise as chain begins to want to climb up next largest cog, then back it off four adjustment clicks. Then take it out of adjustment mode.
That's the textbook dealer manual stuff.

Stops are set correctly, and Ive tried backing them off, in the case of the outboard stop, to allow it to drop down into the 11th from the 10th, but it won't do it.

And yes, it cannot be the hangar. One frame, I might buy it. Two frames, well, I have seen odder things. But No possible way on three frames.... I have tried it on Spesh Tarmac sl4 first. Then R3. Now S5. Exact same behavior.
It cannot possibly be that all three frames had their hangers bent, and bent in the same way...

It's clearly something about the adjustment mode.
Was just now taking with a shimano guy and he suggested going down to 11, putting it in adjustment, inching it up. taking out of adjustment, shifting up on, back into adjustment, trim till its in a good spot, then out of adjustment, shift up one, repeat... all the way up. then try it all the way back down.
I dont have bike with me now, but this is going to be interesting.
He agreed that it wasnt the hangar, and that its likely a trim issue that I brought on myself. Just an odd mode to get it into....


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## goodboyr

Cool. So you still actually haven't checked hanger alignment with the proper tool. How about using the battery charger with the etube software and using the adjustment screen to get the rear derailleur back into the "neutral" position of mid adjustment. In the 9070 system the range is +12 to -12 so set it to 0. Then proceed to go through the setup as per the manual. Also, have you changed wheels or spacers in wheels?


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## Brypro91

I'm no expert, but I'm 100% sure your hanger alignment is off, bring it to a shop, i guarantee it.


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## thumper8888

Brypro91 said:


> I'm no expert, but I'm 100% sure your hanger alignment is off, bring it to a shop, i guarantee it.


Since all of you seem to be convinced of the same thing, can one of you, just one, explain how likely it is from a statistical standpoint, that I have had THREE consecutive frames with bent hangers?
Or how the unit could shift perfectly with all 10 cogs that it will cover, if its a bent hanger?
Or why the Shimano tech guy says its unlikely to be a bent hanger based on that shifting pattern?
Or how the fix he told me to try adjusted it one cog at a time seems to have fixed it?

This though, seems to be a good idea and I might go back and re-check it via this method: "How about using the battery charger with the etube software and using the adjustment screen to get the rear derailleur back into the "neutral" position of mid adjustment. In the 9070 system the range is +12 to -12 so set it to 0. Then proceed to go through the setup as per the manual. 

And, though the answer is no, is a good question, i think we've all had a problem with this at some point: "Also, have you changed wheels or spacers in wheels?"

My wheels don't use a spacer for 11-s, but that was indeed one of the things I thought about.... then I realized that if i had a spacer, it would be on the inside of the cassette, pushing the small cog even farther outboard, which would make the problem worse, not better... but it was a good thought at least....


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## goodboyr

We don't have all the info you have, so we are suggesting the base things that need to be checked when this type of problem occurs. Despite your insistence that it can't possibly be the hanger, our collective experience is that the hanger is always the first thing you check when RD shifting problems occur. Its easy to eliminate this, and without directly measuring it, it may not be the root, but it certainly could be a contributor.....
OTOH, you are the one that is asking for help, and we are the ones who are offering it.......so there is no point in challenging this.
And finally, since you seem to have fixed this and now reveal this info to us, happy riding, and goodbye.


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## goodboyr

Oh yeah.....one more thing. Typically when one asks for help and people offer help, the polite thing to do is to say thanks..........the impolite thing to so is to rate and judge how "good" their help is. I've noted your response, so good luck asking for help in the future......


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## bearded_juan

I had the same issue, where it was off a gear. You have to plug your junction box into your computer and run the e-tube project software. Instead of doing the rear derailleur adjustment mode, use the software to adjust it. It fixed my issue.


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## thumper8888

bearded_juan said:


> I had the same issue, where it was off a gear. You have to plug your junction box into your computer and run the e-tube project software. Instead of doing the rear derailleur adjustment mode, use the software to adjust it. It fixed my issue.


Yeah, that mostly got it. it's i think pretty much what the tech rep was telling me to do... essentially you have the same effect by going cog to cog and on each one making an adjustment, then taking it out of adjustment and moving to the next cog.
but doing it by computer, as you suggest, is easier because yo can pop in and out of adjustment mode a lot easier and the screen shows where you are... the actual adjustments can be done by ear....


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## thumper8888

And it's noted that your first attempt at advice was to suggest something that I clearly stated I had done in the OP
And your second was take what sounded like a snarky tone with me "So, you still have actually not...) for something that I also indicated in the OP that I had eliminated as a possibility by trying the mech on three frames.
Fair enough, bent hangars apparently are the main cause of this. But the polite way, given the evidence i described for thinking it wasnt the issue here, would have been to gently to remind me that if at some point I eliminated all the other stuff that was easier to deal with than taking off three hours to go the the LBS, I could at least circle back to the hangar.

At my end, this is what it looked like; I post an OP question with a detailed set of reasons for at least putting the factory adjustment method (already tried) and hangar (tested on three frames) aside, and instead of help, I got what felt to me like passive aggressive attacks on me for trying to put those things aside, and a post from someone who clearly hand't even read the OP before tossing in advice.

And it's noted that your final reply took a hostile tone, and that still no one has addressed my question of why going to the extraordinary length of trying the mech on three frames shouldn't at least make a bent hangar highly unlikely enough that my time was probably better spent looking for another cause.... If I had not done that, yes, it would have been fair to grill me for not even bothering to have the hangar checked. 

Emails and forums are pretty blunt instruments for communication and it's unlikely that any of this was due to anyone but myself. I could have been more clear in the way i explained the problem... and more generous in the way i phrased things.
I think that my goals when posting in a technical forum should always be 1) be civil and don't add to the aggressive and often unpleasant tone of the internet and 2) to get at something practical, something that might help not just me but is a tricky issue that could help others with the same equipment.
So... clearly I failed, at least on the first and most important thing, and I apologize profoundly for that.
Sorry.


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## goodboyr

Fair enough. Thanks for the response. All good. My apologies as well.


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## natedg200202

On a related note, my hanger alignment tool is the coolest tool I own! You should get one.


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## thumper8888

natedg200202 said:


> On a related note, my hanger alignment tool is the coolest tool I own! You should get one.


Yeah, that's good advice... this keeps coming up as a mystery issue in the forum and it would be nice to be able to fix it when required, and eliminate it in the forensic stage of problem fixing at other times.

And it would be nice to just take it and run through the full quiver... it would not be surprising if there were at least tiny improvements to be made on some.
It's I think the last important specialized tool (I think) that I don't have. Right now the must "fun" one I have is the set of BB30 install and removal tools. I really like the way they work.

Now that I think about it will put hangar alignment tool on the birthday list.


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## goodboyr

Yup. I've found di2 to be more sensitive to slight misalignment. Or perhaps its just that your expectations are higher with di2 and you don't tolerate things that would go unnoticed with mechanical. In any case although the park tools one is nice, if you can afford it, the abbey bike tools one is much much better.


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## thumper8888

goodboyr said:


> Yup. I've found di2 to be more sensitive to slight misalignment. Or perhaps its just that your expectations are higher with di2 and you don't tolerate things that would go unnoticed with mechanical. In any case although the park tools one is nice, if you can afford it, the abbey bike tools one is much much better.


How often, on the whole, when you go to check a frame for the first time, do you find that the hangar is off a bit?
And when they are, how often does it seem to be a "come from the factory" isuse and how often is it something that got bent a bit in use?
I may just be paranoid, but every time I put the Cervelo in the trainer I worry that the compression from the trainer threading is doing it... the Cervelo ones are apparently a tad softer than many others.


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## goodboyr

Every time I've checked a new bike for the first time the hanger is off......every single time.
I have two cervelos ( an original r3 from 2006 and an rca). The hanger on the r3 was the original silver ones that cervelo used and they were crap. Once I replaced it with a wheel mfg version it stayed OK through multiple seasons, trainer sessions, travel in bike boxes etc. But I check my bikes once a year to be safe. My rca came with a much better hanger ( it looks very similar to the wheels CNC ones) and once I aligned it initially when I built the bike its been fine ever since. I am the bike mechanic for our riding club and most bring their bikes to me for mtce and mod. I've installed over 30 di2 systems and checked out club members new bikes. So my statistics are pretty good. Every single one needed initial alignment. Some were slight adjustments, many were way out.
When people come in with shifting problems its always the very first thing I check.


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## thumper8888

goodboyr said:


> Every time I've checked a new bike for the first time the hanger is off......every single time.
> I have two cervelos ( an original r3 from 2006 and an rca). The hanger on the r3 was the original silver ones that cervelo used and they were crap. Once I replaced it with a wheel mfg version it stayed OK through multiple seasons, trainer sessions, travel in bike boxes etc. But I check my bikes once a year to be safe. My rca came with a much better hanger ( it looks very similar to the wheels CNC ones) and once I aligned it initially when I built the bike its been fine ever since. I am the bike mechanic for our riding club and most bring their bikes to me for mtce and mod. I've installed over 30 di2 systems and checked out club members new bikes. So my statistics are pretty good. Every single one needed initial alignment. Some were slight adjustments, many were way out.
> When people come in with shifting problems its always the very first thing I check.


Jesus H. Christ. OK, now I'm definitely going to get one.


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## VKW

So, I had a similar issue as well once with it not shifting to the smallest cog and found it was because of the limit stops in combination with the micro adjustments. The micro adjustments were off making me think the stops were set correctly. I eventually figured it out and it worked perfectly from there.

This is also easily apparent if you have the Shimano D-Fly with a Garmin Edge 1000 that displays the gear you are in and the micro adjustments. When I went and bought a mid-cage rear derailleur, I had the same issue in my first initial set up of it not shifting to the smallest cog. However, I had recently upgraded with the D-fly system and was instantly able to tell from the display that it was supposed to be on the 11T cog when it was on the 12T cog. Fixing the micro adjustments and the limit stops solved it.

So having the D-fly and Garmin 1000 adjustment displays definitely makes setting up the derailleurs much easier. A benefit that doesn't get talked about very much.


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## thumper8888

VKW said:


> So, I had a similar issue as well once with it not shifting to the smallest cog and found it was because of the limit stops in combination with the micro adjustments. The micro adjustments were off making me think the stops were set correctly. I eventually figured it out and it worked perfectly from there.
> 
> This is also easily apparent if you have the Shimano D-Fly with a Garmin Edge 1000 that displays the gear you are in and the micro adjustments. When I went and bought a mid-cage rear derailleur, I had the same issue in my first initial set up of it not shifting to the smallest cog. However, I had recently upgraded with the D-fly system and was instantly able to tell from the display that it was supposed to be on the 11T cog when it was on the 12T cog. Fixing the micro adjustments and the limit stops solved it.
> 
> So having the D-fly and Garmin 1000 adjustment displays definitely makes setting up the derailleurs much easier. A benefit that doesn't get talked about very much.


Though I had it fixed by adjusting one cog at a time... which actually helped. But in the end, the main issue was there was something wrong with the rear mech ... too much play back and forth. so it would shift fine in one direction, but then screw up when you started the other way.
replaced it with a $150 ultra di2 off eBay figuring i could flip it if I were wrong and voila, cured.
Will have to send the 9070 one into shimano service and hope they ca figure it out. damn rear mech that costs as much as a junker car.


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## thumper8888

thumper8888 said:


> Though I had it fixed by adjusting one cog at a time... which actually helped. But in the end, the main issue was there was something wrong with the rear mech ... too much play back and forth. so it would shift fine in one direction, but then screw up when you started the other way.
> replaced it with a $150 ultra di2 off eBay figuring i could flip it if I were wrong and voila, cured.
> Will have to send the 9070 one into shimano service and hope they ca figure it out. damn rear mech that costs as much as a junker car.


They can't fix it. The amount of play is out of tolerance, and all the parts are riveted together, service rep says. 
Was this the case in old days, say with 7700 or 7800? Not being facetious, but curious. Never had to repair mine, but can recall all kinds of exploded views with replaceable looking bits.
These things are kind of expensive to be tossing away.


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## m3bas

Just for those googling this problem as I was, I had a similar issue on a new bike. Micro adjustment all the way down but still wanting to jump up a cog and not shifting into the 11 very well.
Hanger was bent, got that straightened and shifts perfectly now.
Should be first port of call.


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## Cinelli 82220

A Team Sky mechanic told me the hanger tool is one of their most used tools.


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## WEG

Hi All

I am having a similar issue with a 2016 Cannondale Supersix EVO HM build

Actually - a friend and I built up two bikes - bought the frames new and built up with 9070 Di2

Both were having the issue of shifting off the largest cog into the spokes

I connected them to the computer using the Etube software and was able to understand the problem better 

One issue is that to get them into adjustment correctly I have to adjust the micoradjust setting to +12 

Is there a way to reset the gear that Di2 thinks it is in so the micro adjust is closer to zero? 

Should I add a spacer so that the rear derailleur is farther from the dropout so that the micro adjust is closer to zero? 

Finally - I am probably going to purchase a rear derailleur alignment tool. Will this be safe to use on the Cannondale Supersix EVO HiMod frame?

Thanks in advance!!!

Will


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## allenpg

WEG said:


> Hi All
> 
> I am having a similar issue with a 2016 Cannondale Supersix EVO HM build
> 
> Actually - a friend and I built up two bikes - bought the frames new and built up with 9070 Di2
> 
> Both were having the issue of shifting off the largest cog into the spokes
> 
> I connected them to the computer using the Etube software and was able to understand the problem better
> 
> One issue is that to get them into adjustment correctly I have to adjust the micoradjust setting to +12
> 
> Is there a way to reset the gear that Di2 thinks it is in so the micro adjust is closer to zero?
> 
> Should I add a spacer so that the rear derailleur is farther from the dropout so that the micro adjust is closer to zero?
> 
> Finally - I am probably going to purchase a rear derailleur alignment tool. Will this be safe to use on the Cannondale Supersix EVO HiMod frame?
> 
> Thanks in advance!!!
> 
> Will


Did you ever get this figured out? I'm having the same problem with my 2016 Cannondale Evo HM. It just came out of the blue. I tried a new hanger, but still can barely get it to shift with micro all of the way out. Limit screws are fine. I'm also tried 2 different wheels. I might through a 6870 RD on it tomorrow to see if I still have the problem. Wondering if something is up with the 9070 RD.


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## rm -rf

See this thread Di2 adjustment issue

The OP ended up milling a derailleur hanger to allow his Di2 to shift to the largest cog correctly!

And I posted that the 33 click adjustment range doesn't reset, so I clicked more than 33 in one direction, then back 16 clicks to get to the center of the adjustment range.


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## WEG

Just to update - I bought a Park rear derailleur hanger tool and tweaked the alignment - the shifting is now just fine

Thanks!


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