# More newbie TdF questions



## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

1: Don't these guys ever sweat? I would be a portable car wash after five miles.


2: What role to the radios play? I gather the team car is updating the riders on the conditions of the road, but does the team car also direct the actions of the riders. Do they say: "Siegfried, raus! Gehen Sie!" or do those decisions still rest with the team members?


3: As an environmentallly friendly sport, I love the TdF. However, what a collective group of litterbugs. Is there a cleanup car to gather up the tossed out food packets, empty wrappers and ejected water bottles?


4: Are the jerseys all mutually exclusive, meaning can one person hold the yellow and polka dot (or whatever) at the same time? 


5: It appears that Lance is still going strong, hovering near the front of the peloton, but the eight minute deficit it a huge hurdle to overcome. Does anyone think he has a realistic chance of a podium placement? Or is it a case of "its not over until its over"?


6: To make up that deficit, Lance has to actually win stages by a collective eight minutes, or does he have to just be faster than those people ahead of him at the end of the final stage?


7: I am still working thru new bike cable stretch on my derailleurs. Assuming that the bikes prepped for the TdF will have all new everything, how do they prevent new cable cable stretch from mucking up a shift? Is there a way to pre-stress and pre-stretch the cables so they don't need adjustment?


All for now.. sadly, more later.

Thx!


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## jtrain (Feb 25, 2009)

I think Lance is only back about 3 minutes right now, and when the mountain climbs come, we're going to find out if he's still got it. Consider that Cantator, the winner from last year, is less than a minute in front of Lance.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

1: Don't these guys ever sweat? I would be a portable car wash after five miles.
*These guys are at the height of fitness, but yes, they do sweat. Look at what Fabian Cancelarra was doing today. Sweat pouring off of him in buckets*

2: What role to the radios play? I gather the team car is updating the riders on the conditions of the road, but does the team car also direct the actions of the riders. Do they say: "Siegfried, raus! Gehen Sie!" or do those decisions still rest with the team members?
*The team director communicates road conditions, as well as tactics through the radios*

3: As an environmentallly friendly sport, I love the TdF. However, what a collective group of litterbugs. Is there a cleanup car to gather up the tossed out food packets, empty wrappers and ejected water bottles?
*Fans usually take care of the "litter"*

4: Are the jerseys all mutually exclusive, meaning can one person hold the yellow and polka dot (or whatever) at the same time?
*Yes, one person could hold more than one jersey.*

5: It appears that Lance is still going strong, hovering near the front of the peloton, but the eight minute deficit it a huge hurdle to overcome. Does anyone think he has a realistic chance of a podium placement? Or is it a case of "its not over until its over"?
*He's only less than 3 minutes down after Stage 7. He could still finish on the podium. There's still a LOT of racing, yet. *

6: To make up that deficit, Lance has to actually win stages by a collective eight minutes, or does he have to just be faster than those people ahead of him at the end of the final stage?
*It is an aggregate time*

7: I am still working thru new bike cable stretch on my derailleurs. Assuming that the bikes prepped for the TdF will have all new everything, how do they prevent new cable cable stretch from mucking up a shift? Is there a way to pre-stress and pre-stretch the cables so they don't need adjustment?
*Cable stretch is not that big of an issue... Team mechanics make sure the bikes are working perfectly prior to each stage*


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

frpax said:


> 4: Are the jerseys all mutually exclusive, meaning can one person hold the yellow and polka dot (or whatever) at the same time?
> *Yes, one person could hold more than one jersey.*


Indeed. However, since the rider only wears one jersey at a time, the "lesser" jersey will be worn by whoever is next in line for that jersey, "on loan" as it were.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

RRRoubaix said:


> Indeed. However, since the rider only wears one jersey at a time, the "lesser" jersey will be worn by whoever is next in line for that jersey, "on loan" as it were.


Very true. I was going to point that out, but I was too tired to type anymore last night... HAD to go to bed...


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## Tommy Walker (Aug 14, 2009)

Great questions and great answers. This is my first year really watching the TDF everyday. I remember my French class about 40 years ago and we learned a lot oabout the yellow jersey.

It's interesting how some team members give up their bikes to other members that fall. I guess that's the real reason they are on the team.

I've also notinced that helmets have only just come into being a requirement, maybe the last 3 or 4 years?

Why are the bikes like Seven, Fondise, and Willier not represented?


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Team Lampre (bright pink & blue kit) rides Wilier


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

frpax said:


> Very true. I was going to point that out, but I was too tired to type anymore last night... HAD to go to bed...


I figured _you_ knew- I was just clarifying for the OP.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Tommy Walker said:


> Great questions and great answers. This is my first year really watching the TDF everyday. I remember my French class about 40 years ago and we learned a lot oabout the yellow jersey.
> 
> It's interesting how some team members give up their bikes to other members that fall. I guess that's the real reason they are on the team.


*Well, the real reason is so they can ride in front of the "protected" rider and do the majority of the work, so the GC contender is less tired.*



Tommy Walker said:


> I've also notinced that helmets have only just come into being a requirement, maybe the last 3 or 4 years?


*Sort of- they started wearing them quite a while back, but were allowed to ditch them on climbs. After there was a death, the rules were modified again and now they have to wear them during the duration of the race.*



Tommy Walker said:


> Why are the bikes like Seven, Fondise, and Willier not represented?


*Lots of reasons... in some cases, the smaller "boutique" brands, if you will, aren't capable of cranking out enough frames to support a ProTour team. But more often, it's a case of the bigger mfrs have great PR and sales departments and can swing the big deals.
(As frpax pointed out, Lampre rides Wiliers).

Glad you're enjoying the race!*


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

RRRoubaix said:


> *Well, the real reason is so they can ride in front of the "protected" rider and do the majority of the work, so the GC contender is less tired.*
> 
> 
> *Sort of- they started wearing them quite a while back, but were allowed to ditch them on the FINAL climb of the stage. After there was a death, the rules were modified again and now they have to wear them during the duration of the race.*
> ...


Fixed it for you


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## tbsurf (Apr 15, 2010)

*More questions*

1. Do all riders on a team ride the same make & model bike? For example, are all Radio Shack team members on Trek, because they sponsor Lance? If they're all on the same make, can they be on different models? 

2. I noticed on a close up yesterday (Stage 6), the Spanish rider on a Fuji bike using the large front sprocket on a long climb. When do the pros go to the small sprocket in front?

3. Wish Versus would show the speeds. It looked like Schleck (and others) were flying at times on the Cat 1 climbs. What kind of speeds do the pros make on the flats, climbing (5% +) & the downhills? Thanks, TB


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

tbsurf said:


> 1. Do all riders on a team ride the same make & model bike? For example, are all Radio Shack team members on Trek, because they sponsor Lance? If they're all on the same make, can they be on different models?
> Generally, yes. It's almost always the same model with the same paint scheme. In a race like Paris-Roubaix, some riders will opt for slightly different equipment, but as long as it has the same paint scheme, it's OK. Lance rides with a different helmet graphic and different graphics on his bike. I think that gets the team a fine from the UCI, but I'm not totally sure about that.
> 
> 2. I noticed on a close up yesterday (Stage 6), the Spanish rider on a Fuji bike using the large front sprocket on a long climb. When do the pros go to the small sprocket in front?
> ...


........


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Well... <sigh> Looks like Lance is out of the running... two wrecks in one day. 

OK, more questions:

1: Versus is running an odd stat: KW. The leaders are at 743 KW and the Peloton is at 687 KW. Huh??? Kilowatt is a measure of electrical power. How is this translatable to a bike race?

2: Does the team member train with his team bike during the off-season? Is it a keeper? Or are the bikes owned in fee simple by the team, and the rider just rides it, then relinquishes when he leaves the team?

3: Is there a female TdF or equivalent?

4: Speaking of (2), when a replacement bike is yanked off the SAG, is this a custom dupe for the specific rider, preset to his saddle height and preference? Or is it a generic team bike that is quick-like-a-bunny fitted to him during the swapout?

5: I don't understand how the points factor in. A rider gets X points for placement, King of the Hill, and so forth. What are the points used in determining? Time, not points, determines the overall winner, correct?

6: How much money is at stake for the race participants?

7: What does it cost to field a world-class competetive team? Does the team get a salary and percentage of the purse? Or is it purse only, or salary only? What prices are we talking about for talent? Is the US paying comparably to European teams with a stronger cycling tradition?

8: What does a team do on a "rest day" -- and is there only one, or more than one? I assume "rest" is not watching TdF reruns as a Swedish masseuse is working on your back.

Thx all! I really enjoy the updates here. It is giving me a lot of sense about what all is going on in the TdF.

Don


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Cadent said:


> ...1: Versus is running an odd stat: KW. The leaders are at 743 KW and the Peloton is at 687 KW. Huh??? Kilowatt is a measure of electrical power. How is this translatable to a bike race?


*A kilowatt is a measurement of energy, not strictly electrical. How much power a cyclist is putting forth is typically measured in kilowatts. Many racers, pro and amateur, use "power meters" that measure this energy.
*


Cadent said:


> 2: Does the team member train with his team bike during the off-season? Is it a keeper? Or are the bikes owned in fee simple by the team, and the rider just rides it, then relinquishes when he leaves the team?


*Yes, the bikes are owned by the team. Riders will use them for training most of the time. I'm not 100% clear on this, but some cyclists are given their bikes after the season is over, or perhaps as a prize after an important win.*



Cadent said:


> 3: Is there a female TdF or equivalent?


*Yes! It's called the Feminine Grand Boucle or something along those lines. Most of the big races have a female equivalent.*



Cadent said:


> 4: Speaking of (2), when a replacement bike is yanked off the SAG, is this a custom dupe for the specific rider, preset to his saddle height and preference? Or is it a generic team bike that is quick-like-a-bunny fitted to him during the swapout?


*"Sag" is typically the "sweep" vehicle. Replacement bikes are usually gotten from the team cars. The top GC riders will have pre-set full replacement bikes, I believe. Everyone else has to "make do" w/ a generic bike that is then adjusted on the fly- while riding.*



Cadent said:


> 5: I don't understand how the points factor in. A rider gets X points for placement, King of the Hill, and so forth. What are the points used in determining? Time, not points, determines the overall winner, correct?


*Right- points don't count for the overall GC victory, but count for all other categories. There are basically 3 races going on at the same time. Riders who aren't really GC contenders vie for points in the other categories.*



Cadent said:


> 6: How much money is at stake for the race participants?


*Ooh- good question! I don't know.
THere is a lot of money to be made in endorsements though.*



Cadent said:


> 7: What does it cost to field a world-class competetive team? Does the team get a salary and percentage of the purse? Or is it purse only, or salary only? What prices are we talking about for talent? Is the US paying comparably to European teams with a stronger cycling tradition?


*Hmm, again, I'm not the best to answer this, but the riders do earn a salary, paid by the team. Winners of racers also get purse money. Not sure about the rest.*


Cadent said:


> 8: What does a team do on a "rest day" -- and is there only one, or more than one? I assume "rest" is not watching TdF reruns as a Swedish masseuse is working on your back.
> Thx all! I really enjoy the updates here. It is giving me a lot of sense about what all is going on in the TdF.
> Don


*Incredibly, most racers go riding on the rest days! They say their muscles seize up if off the bike too long on these Grand Tours. The TdF has 2 race days.*


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> A kilowatt is a measurement of energy, not strictly electrical. How much power a cyclist is putting forth is typically measured in kilowatts. Many racers, pro and amateur, use "power meters" that measure this energy.


Um, not quite right. A kilowatt is a measure of _power_, which is the _rate_ at which energy is produced (or the rate at which _work_ is done -- energy and work are measured in the same units). Because power is work (or energy) divided by time (it's a rate), to convert back to energy (or work) you have to multiply by time again. That's why your electrical bill says you used x number of _kilowatt-hours_.

It would be meaningless to measure simply the work done (or energy used) without specifying the time period over which it was done. If Alberto Contador and I both rode up the Col de la Madeleine on identical bicycles, we'd both do the same amount of work (well, I'd do a little more, because I have to carry a little more weight up). But because it would take me 4 times as long, his power output would be 4 times mine.

BTW, those units they're showing you for the riders' power outputs are watts, not kilowatts. 700 kilowatts would be something like 900 horsepower. I mean, they're strong, but . . .

Don, you should check out the official tour site, letour.fr. Lots of good info. Here's the page about prize money. http://www.letour.fr/2010/TDF/LIVE/us/reglements.html
There are prizes for all the competitions, including individual stage wins. It adds up to millions. Overall winner gets 450,000 Euros.

They get massages every day. A massage person travels with the team. As essential as the bike mechanics.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

JCavilia said:


> BTW, those units they're showing you for the riders' power outputs are watts, not kilowatts. 700 kilowatts would be something like 900 horsepower. I mean, they're strong, but . . .


Hmmm..someone should drop a note to Versus. They are using KW with their figures.

So, there is some type of meter on their bikes for these watt figures? Or is it determined mathematically, like horsepower -- they are computing work done over time?

Wonder if Versus airs any of the female races? Aside from the allure of fit women in spandex, I would like to see a compare/contrast in riding styles. Are women generally more or less collaborative than males? Or are riding strategies the same, regardless of the gender?

Will check out the TdF site, thanks!


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Cadent said:


> So, there is some type of meter on their bikes for these watt figures? Or is it determined mathematically, like horsepower -- they are computing work done over time?



Meters. Strain guages built into the crankarms or spider (in the models used by most Tour teams -- other versions are in the rear hub). I don't think all the teams use them, and not all have telemetry for real-time data (they can store data for later download and analysis). 

Regular old gear-head recreational cyclists use these sometimes, though they're way too spendy for my habits. They add thousands to the cost of the bike.


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## Allez Rouge (Jan 1, 1970)

Cadent said:


> Wonder if Versus airs any of the female races?


Offhand I can't recall ever seeing anything except brief highlights of a women's race that was run in conjunction with a men's race.

If you're new to watching bicycle racing you should not, alas, get your hopes up too much by the coverage VERSUS is giving the TdF. For most of the other races all we get is a one- or two-hour highlight show on Sundays. Better than nothing, but not in the same league as the spectacularly wall-to-wall coverage we get of Le Tour. (A notable exception: they did have excellent daily coverage of the Amgen Tour of California.)


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Cadent said:


> So, there is some type of meter on their bikes for these watt figures? Or is it determined mathematically, like horsepower -- they are computing work done over time?


Yes many pros ride with some kind of power meter on their bike. It is no longer an issue because they can build bikes that are below the UCI minimum weight requirement, so the extra mass of the power meter just brings it back up to spec. As far as how the power is measured, seems to me most pros use the SRM-type (measured by a special spider integrated into the crank) which uses strain gauges to measure the amount of deformation when force is applied to the pedals. This deformation can be converted into a force (force = (strain*elastic modulus)/cross-sectional area) and therefore a torque (torque = force applied * distance from the axis of revolution). Finally, knowing the cadence, Power = torque x angular velocity (speed of revolution). Powertaps work in a similar way, but measure power at the rear hub using the torque applied to it by the chain turning the cassette.



Cadent said:


> Wonder if Versus airs any of the female races? Aside from the allure of fit women in spandex, I would like to see a compare/contrast in riding styles. Are women generally more or less collaborative than males? Or are riding strategies the same, regardless of the gender?


I wish I could answer this, but I'm willing to bet that the teams and strategies are just as well-developed as the men's side. Cervelo Test Team and Columbia HTC also field women's teams, but I don't know if any other male pro-teams field female versions.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

JCavilia said:


> Meters. Strain guages built into the crankarms or spider (in the models used by most Tour teams -- other versions are in the rear hub). I don't think all the teams use them, and not all have telemetry for real-time data (they can store data for later download and analysis).
> 
> Regular old gear-head recreational cyclists use these sometimes, though they're way too spendy for my habits. They add thousands to the cost of the bike.


OOOOoookkkkkkkkaaaayyyyyyyy..... aside from offering an intriguing stat, what purpose does knowing the watt output of a rider serve? Is this a way of determining how hard the rider must pedal at a certain point? A guage of leg strength? Brute force? 

Seems rather obvious you pedal harder uphill...and the harder you pedal the faster you go.

I can see a lot of thought and sophisitication in developing this... don't see the obvious reason.... but then I have a kickstand on my bike, so what do I know??????????


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Power can be used as an objective measure of how much energy a cyclist is expending. If two cyclists, all other things being equal, were going at the same speed up a hill, the one using less power will have more left at the top for a sprint to the finish. Monitoring this power output can give cyclists an idea of how much they're pushing it. Similarly, for a perceived effort, if a cyclist is putting out LESS power than normal, they're in trouble or having a bad day. Using heat rate and power output can be a useful bit of information while training or racing. Basically it can be used to get that little extra 1% that separates a TdF winner from someone way back in the pack.

The science is sound, but the $$ is cost-prohibitive for all but the rich and the dedicated.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Cadent said:


> OOOOoookkkkkkkkaaaayyyyyyyy..... aside from offering an intriguing stat, what purpose does knowing the watt output of a rider serve? Is this a way of determining how hard the rider must pedal at a certain point? A guage of leg strength? Brute force?
> 
> Seems rather obvious you pedal harder uphill...and the harder you pedal the faster you go.
> 
> I can see a lot of thought and sophisitication in developing this... don't see the obvious reason.... but then I have a kickstand on my bike, so what do I know??????????


Power output is the most fundamental and basic measure of how strong a cyclist is. Power meters are an enormously useful training aid. For real-time comparisons _during_ a race, they're more of a curiousity: "Wow, look how hard Carlos is going. He's really on form today." 



> Seems rather obvious you pedal harder uphill...and the harder you pedal the faster you go.


But how hard you *CAN* [pedal at that moment, especially as compared to the other racers, is very important. If two guys who weigh the same are racing up the hill, the one who can put out more power will win.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Allez Rouge said:


> ...If you're new to watching bicycle racing you should not, alas, get your hopes up too much by the coverage VERSUS is giving the TdF. For most of the other races all we get is a one- or two-hour highlight show on Sundays. Better than nothing, but not in the same league as the spectacularly wall-to-wall coverage we get of Le Tour. (A notable exception: they did have excellent daily coverage of the Amgen Tour of California.)


+Eleventy million!
Hell, they barely acknowledge that the Giro and Vuelta even exist! Let alone cover those other two Grand Tours.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

aengbretson said:


> Power can be used as an objective measure of how much energy a cyclist is expending. If two cyclists, all other things being equal, were going at the same speed up a hill, the one using less power will have more left at the top for a sprint to the finish. Monitoring this power output can give cyclists an idea of how much they're pushing it. Similarly, for a perceived effort, if a cyclist is putting out LESS power than normal, they're in trouble or having a bad day. Using heat rate and power output can be a useful bit of information while training or racing. Basically it can be used to get that little extra 1% that separates a TdF winner from someone way back in the pack.
> 
> The science is sound, but the $$ is cost-prohibitive for all but the rich and the dedicated.



Hmmm.... OK, I can see that... would it make more sense then to do this in a lab on a stationary bike, where the miniaturization effects won't make the equipment so costly?

Yeah, not the same as a real ride, but... 

I don't suppose that separate teams collaborate on funding training grounds or anything?


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

RRRoubaix said:


> +Eleventy million!
> Hell, they barely acknowledge that the Giro and Vuelta even exist! Let alone cover those other two Grand Tours.


How long are those races? Same format at the TdF, or shorter?


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Cadent said:


> How long are those races? Same format at the TdF, or shorter?


They're about the same and just like the Tdf, they are 3 week long Grand Tours and the routes vary from year to year and have similar stages (mountain stages, flat stages, time trials).

2010 Giro: 3485 km
2010 TdF: 3642 km
2010 Vuelta: 3338 km


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Cadent said:


> Hmmm.... OK, I can see that... would it make more sense then to do this in a lab on a stationary bike, where the miniaturization effects won't make the equipment so costly?
> 
> Yeah, not the same as a real ride, but...
> 
> I don't suppose that separate teams collaborate on funding training grounds or anything?


Yeah definitely not the same as a real ride. The pros will ride for 5+ hours a day. That's a LONG time to just sit indoors. Basically it allows the "lab" to travel with them, they can get reasonable real-time feedback, and then upload the data to training software that can track everything. It's like saying you should run on a treadmill to keep track of distance instead of using something like Nike+ or a Garmin to track your runs.

Oh, and as far as the Giro and Vuelta go, they often have more insane stages. For example this year's Giro had a 12.8 km uphill time trial that took the winner nearly 42 minutes, that's an average speed of 18.5 km/h. The average gradient was around 8.5% and maxed out at 24% near the finish. To top it all off, it turns into gravel near the end. Many racers used compact chain rings (some even used a mountain-like setup) with cassettes that included 28 and 32t sprockets. The Vuelta also has some really steep climbs. Seems to me like the Tour has LONG climbs while the Giro and Vuelta use STEEP climbs.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

*TdF Newbie questions for Wed.*

Next installment of newbie questions:

1: If a person does not participate in one stage of the TdF, can he enter others? Or is he dropped entirely from the competition at that point? Can people pick their levels of participation?


2: On stage...7-8?? climbing the Madeline (sp), much was said about a teammate's of Schleck's expending himself for the good of the team leading Schleck up the mountain. Incredible effort, the guy destroyed himself. But while I see the benefits of drafting on the flat, the idea of being led uphill is not obvious to me. Are they doing fast enough that drafting up the Madeline would have a benefit? Or is the benefit more psychological, having someone to follow and set the pace, even if that pace is essentially flat-out?


3: A random question while I was typing. The Madeline (sp again) is... a 6% grade or so for... 20 KM or so? Is there a grade that is _too_ steep for competition? I boggle at the ability of these people to make that pull. I would be walking the final 19.5 KM.

thx, all!

Don


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## josephr (Jun 17, 2010)

How are the points acquired and why isn't this Thor guy getting more press for being the points leader?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Cadent said:


> Next installment of newbie questions:
> 
> 1: If a person does not participate in one stage of the TdF, can he enter others? Or is he dropped entirely from the competition at that point? Can people pick their levels of participation?
> 
> ...


1. Gotta finish every stage within the time limit. Miss one, and your race is over.

2. Some drafting benefit, though obviously less than on flat. Some pacing/psych benefit, too. Also, forcing rivals to ride faster than they want to.

3. A few years back the Vuelta a Espana used a climb called Angliru that had some sections at 24%. Worst I've heard of. Madeleine I think averages something over 6% for 25 km, but has bits at 9 or 10. What makes the classic climbs is the combination of length and steepness.

Edit: found a pic of the Angliru. Looks like fun, eh?


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Cadent said:


> 3: A random question while I was typing. The Madeline (sp again) is... a 6% grade or so for... 20 KM or so? Is there a grade that is _too_ steep for competition? I boggle at the ability of these people to make that pull. I would be walking the final 19.5 KM.


Nope 

As far as I know, any passable road is fair game. However that doesn't mean that cyclists don't complain that some stages are just cruel. Again I reference the Plan de Corones uphill TT from the '08 and '10 editions of the Giro.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

josephr said:


> How are the points acquired and why isn't this Thor guy getting more press for being the points leader?


Placings in sprints, both intermediate and stage finishes (more points for those). Thor is getting plenty of press, as far as I can tell .The maillot vert is a big deal to sprinters, but definitely secondary to the maillot jaune in terms of general interest.


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> *Placings in sprints, both intermediate and stage finishes (more points for those)*. Thor is getting plenty of press, as far as I can tell .The maillot vert is a big deal to sprinters, but definitely secondary to the maillot jaune in terms of general interest.


Additionally, there are more finish line sprint points on flat stages and very few on mountain ones. As far as the green jersey is concerned, not all stages are created equal and it emphasizes being the fastest of the fast when the peloton is likely to end up in a bunch sprint instead of shattered like we saw over the mountains.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Ok, sounds like a stupid question, but I don't know the answer so here's my contribution to the thread:

With 6 hr. rides and plenty of hydration going on, how / where do the riders take a leak?? Obviously they don't stop. With all the fans around, I don't think they just whip it out? I can't imagine they just piss in their pants? So what's happening here? 

Sorry I had to ask, lol  


**


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Oh, another quick question:

Do teams compete in more than one major tour event a year? Will, say, Radio Shack, complete in the Tour, Giro and Vuelta all in the same season? Or do they sit some out? Do the same riders compete in the other majors,or is there a "bench" they can call up to replace the riders spent on another stage race?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Erion929 said:


> Ok, sounds like a stupid question, but I don't know the answer so here's my contribution to the thread:
> With 6 hr. rides and plenty of hydration going on, how / where do the riders take a leak?? Obviously they don't stop. With all the fans around, I don't think they just whip it out? I can't imagine they just piss in their pants? So what's happening here?
> Sorry I had to ask, lol
> **


 Excellent question, really, and an oft-discussed subject. 

First, they don't have to go quite as often as you might guess, because when you are exercising really hard your body diverts blood flow from the kidneys to conserve water, so you produce less urine. Exercising at a moderate pace increases urine flow.

Second, when they do have to go, sometimes they do stop. Sometimes by tacit agreement someone will stop, and the peloton will take it easy while his team paces him back.

Third, (this will sound incredible, but it's true), they can pee (and not in their pants) _while they are riding_. A rider will move to the back of the pack, get to the side of the road, pull up one leg of his shorts (very stretchy), move over to the side kind of hanging off the saddle, and let it rip, without peeing all over himself or his bike.

You will not see this on television. I'm sure many spectators have seen it and been entertained. You know those Europeans, not prudish like Americans ;-)


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## dysfunction (Apr 2, 2010)

JCavilia said:


> You will not see this on television. I'm sure many spectators have seen it and been entertained. You know those Europeans, not prudish like Americans ;-)



I actually saw this on the stage 2 coverage (I think it was stage 2 at least).. well.. it wasn't a closeup, but the drift towards the back of the peloton, to the side of the road, sit up and stop pedaling.... well.. it gave it away :blush2:


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Cadent said:


> Oh, another quick question:
> 
> Do teams compete in more than one major tour event a year? Will, say, Radio Shack, complete in the Tour, Giro and Vuelta all in the same season? Or do they sit some out? Do the same riders compete in the other majors,or is there a "bench" they can call up to replace the riders spent on another stage race?


The big teams do all the big races, but not with exactly the same team. Some guys will do one grand tour, some two, some all three. Radio Shack has something like 25 riders (Tour team is 9). A team often has separate lineups competing simultaneously in different races. In fact, the RS second string was racing last week in the week-long Tour of Austria, while their big boys were riding TdF.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

JCavilia said:


> First, they don't have to go quite as often as you might guess, because when you are exercising really hard your body diverts blood flow from the kidneys to conserve water, so you produce less urine. Exercising at a moderate pace increases urine flow.



OK, that explains a lot. When I ride motorcycles on track days, we have to drink copiously on hot days due to wearing leathers. Trips to the bathroom are usually every 1-2 hrs. But then we're not exercising like cycling....

Thanks!
**


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## Pscyclepath (May 22, 2008)

RRRoubaix said:


> *
> Yes, the bikes are owned by the team. Riders will use them for training most of the time. I'm not 100% clear on this, but some cyclists are given their bikes after the season is over, or perhaps as a prize after an important win.
> 
> *


*

Most professional teams issue each rider at least two bikes... One is a "training" bike that the rider takes home and keeps with him for day-to-day riding and training; the other is the "race" bike that stays with the team support trucks, is maintained and prepped by the team mechanics, and that's the bike the rider uses on racing days. The stage racers on the team are usually issued a set of time trial bikes as well, a trainer and a race bike. The mechanics keep a notebook with each rider's fit measurements close at hand, so they can quickly set up a spare bike for a particular rider on real short notice.

New bikes are typically issued at the beginning of a new season, and the old bikes are turned in and typically returned to the manufacturer. These bikes wind up displayed at company headquarters (several of Lance's bikes are on display at Trek corporate HQs in Wisconsin, including the one he rode at Luz Ardiden in 2003); others may go to outlet shops for retail. The riders may be allowed to keep some bikes, or at least buy them or take a deduction from their pay to keep for themselves at substantially reduced cost.*


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Didn't get to see all of Stage 11 of the TDF Thursday, I just did a quick DVR scan, which cut off before I saw who won the stage.

But I was mystified by what I saw.

Apparently, a group in a breakway kept the lead up to the 20 km mark. Then I saw two of the riders...apparently the remants of the breakaway -- clasp each other's hands in a salute, then drifted back to allow the peloton to catch up with them. At this point another team took the lead (Saxo I think, manuvering for Schleck) and my recording cut off.

?????????

The breakaway riders had a decent lead - 1:40 min. IIRC... why not keep it and take the stage? Why relinquesh the lead?

The announcers said that they took and kept the lead as a way to get their 15 minutes of fame in the TdF. You can labor, and be buried, in the peloton without notice otherwise.

This make sense? "Hi Andy, I have done all the work today. You can kiss the podium girl."

<baffled>

thx!

Don


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

They try breakaways because sometimes they DO work and then you get to stand on the podium, pop some champagne, and kiss the girls. However, on mostly flat stages like yesterday, the teams with big sprinters (Columbia, Lampre, Garmin, Sky) really want to reel in the break so their sprinters can contest the stage. Also, yesterday had some really strong crosswinds near the end of the stage so Saxo Bank pushed the pace to try and fracture the peloton (and they succeeded, but they didn't catch out Contador) for the gain of Andy Schleck.

By the time the guys shook hands (thanking each other for a job well done, trying to help each other out) they had a rapidly diminishing lead of just 10 seconds.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

I think the Grand Tours actually require an "invitation" from the races organizers, don't they? 

I'm not sure, but I don't think that it's automatic that just because a team has a UCI license, that they are guaranteed to start every race. I'm assuming that the big teams can pretty much rely on racing all the big events, but I don't think it's 100% a lock that they will.


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## 7rider (Oct 19, 2005)

RRRoubaix said:


> +Eleventy million!
> Hell, they barely acknowledge that the Giro and Vuelta even exist! Let alone cover those other two Grand Tours.


I think Universal Sports has been carrying the Giro and Vuelta, which is why Versus doesn't mention them (much).


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

7rider said:


> I think Universal Sports has been carrying the Giro and Vuelta, which is why Versus doesn't mention them (much).


that's true, and they do a pretty good job, though they don't have Phil and Paul (some people might think that's a virtue ;-)

I think they cover some of the Classics, too.


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## simonaway427 (Jul 12, 2010)

Cadent said:


> Didn't get to see all of Stage 11 of the TDF Thursday, I just did a quick DVR scan, which cut off before I saw who won the stage.
> 
> But I was mystified by what I saw.
> 
> ...



There are several reasons for the breakway:

1) TV time that you'd never get if you were tucked in the peleton.
2) Once in a while, the breakaway will actually work and there's the possibility of a stage win.
3) To undermine your team leader (eh Alberto?)

They shook hands because they gave it their all, and they couldn't pull it off, so they were just giving each other a pat on the back for a good effort.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

frpax said:


> I think the Grand Tours actually require an "invitation" from the races organizers, don't they?
> 
> I'm not sure, but I don't think that it's automatic that just because a team has a UCI license, that they are guaranteed to start every race. I'm assuming that the big teams can pretty much rely on racing all the big events, but I don't think it's 100% a lock that they will.


They definitely have to be invited.
One of the big stories currently is that Radio Shack (I think we can all agree that's a "big team") has been snubbed for the Vuelta. No invite, no race for them.
And of course, two years ago Astana was barred from participating in the Tour de France and poor ol' Alberto had to settle for winning *both* the Giro d'Italia and the Vuelta a Espana.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

A breakaway of several riders will NEVER stay away from the peloton, unless the peloton allows it to get to where they cannot chase them down.


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## blankdrift (Jul 17, 2010)

Cadent said:


> 2: Does the team member train with his team bike during the off-season? Is it a keeper? Or are the bikes owned in *fee simple* by the team, and the rider just rides it, then relinquishes when he leaves the team?Don


This response is totally unrelated to the TdF discussion, but I like the question, it smells of law school. 

I never thought of any underlying ownership interest that a pro rider might have in their team bike. If it were something other than fee simple what would it be, could they have component rights, the biking world equivalent to mineral rights in landownership. _You can pilfer the components, but we keep the frame.
_

Really, no sarcasm, this is interesting.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

JCavilia said:


> 1. Gotta finish every stage within the time limit. Miss one, and your race is over.
> 
> 2. Some drafting benefit, though obviously less than on flat. Some pacing/psych benefit, too. Also, forcing rivals to ride faster than they want to.
> 
> ...


Awesome pic of Angrilu!

Angrilu is probably the toughest climb from any of the Grand Tours.

But, usually it's not the gradient itself that makes most of these climbs so hard. It's the speed at which these guys do them, that makes them so hard.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Cadent said:


> 2: Does the team member train with his team bike during the off-season? Is it a keeper? Or are the bikes owned in fee simple by the team, and the rider just rides it, then relinquishes when he leaves the team?


I was re-reading this thread and came across a few comments related to this question.

Unless the cyclist buys the bike, or somehow negotiates ownership of it into his or her contract, all of the team bikes are owned by the team. Upon either:
A) The cyclists contract expiring and he or she moves on; or
B) The team dissolves; or
C) Bicycle (or frame) sponsorship changes
and unless one of the aforementioned provisos has occurred, the cyclist gives the bikes back to the team.

You will often see teams selling said bikes for various reasons. Recently, I saw a bunch of the Toyota United Team bikes from last year (or two years ago? Can't remember exactly...), Fuji SSL's, on eBay. The seller was the former team owner. The team dissolved, IIRC. A couple years ago, the European Gerolsteiner squad, which also dissolved, sold all of their Specialized bikes. It is not uncommon.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

JCavilia said:


> that's true, and they do a pretty good job, though they don't have Phil and Paul (some people might think that's a virtue ;-)
> 
> I think they cover some of the Classics, too.



OK, I am a newbie, so I can be impressed by British accents, but I really like Phil Liggiit and Paul Sherwood (??). they just seem so much more informed and engaged in the TdF than the American counterparts.

Granted, I am a sucker for British understatement "the climb up the Cor de Madelaine makes for quite along day indeed..."

I am quite pleased that Versus is using Phil and Paul for the play-by-play and relegating the Amurrcans to to supporting roles. 

Now, OK, granted, they are probably sitting in a studio in London doing this from the TV feeds... if it works for soccer, I assume it works for cycle races also. But Phil in particular appears to have a wonderful grasp of the terrain, the history and the people which is what is really intriguing to me about the Tdf. I need to do a TdF motor tour of Frahnce. Need to work on my pronounciations....


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Cadent said:


> OK, I am a newbie, so I can be impressed by British accents, but I really like Phil Liggiit and Paul Sherwood (??). they just seem so much more informed and engaged in the TdF than the American counterparts.
> 
> Granted, I am a sucker for British understatement "the climb up the Cor de Madelaine makes for quite along day indeed..."
> 
> ...


Paul Sherwen is a former professional racer. Very good commentator. Phil Ligget has been a commentator since the early '70s, and while a lot of people rag on him for all the mistakes he makes, I still like him. For me, he is the voice of pro cycling for the US.

For the record, they call the live feed and Bob Roll & Craig Hummer also call the live feed, but it is recorded and played back during prime time. I really like Bob Roll... Bobke as he's called. I'm not much of a fan of Hummer, but he is getting better. A couple of years ago, when he started doing cycling at Versus, he was awful. Some day, Phil will retire, and someone will replace him. That will be a sad day for me, but I'm hoping Bobke gets the job. Bob Roll is also a former pro cyclist. He was on the 7-Eleven team and was also a team mate of Lances.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Cadent said:


> Now, OK, granted, they are probably sitting in a studio in London doing this from the TV feeds... .


Actually. they are in the finishing town each day.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

frpax said:


> IYou will often see teams selling said bikes for various reasons. It is not uncommon.


I simply don't know the answer, hence my question. In motorcyle racing, the motorcycles are equipped with a lot of exotic unobtanium - in theory purchasable by the general public, but in practice the stuff can get so exotic that it to replicate a Matt Mladin bike would be $100K or more to me.

If I wanted to get a Schleck replica-racer, is this feasible? Are these bikes high-end versions of commercially-available bits, or is there a lot of custom one-off development.

On its face, a bicycle is pretty stone-ax simple - a pedal, a chain, a gear and a coupla wheels, so I don't see a lot of areas for one-off unobtanum development... no titanium valve stems, no custom fuel mappings... but just because I can't see something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

Thx!

Don


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Nowadays, most pro-level bikes are not that out-of-reach. It just costs $10,000 or so to get one that has carbon wheels, bar, stem, SRM power meter, etc. Some companies do custom layups for their pro bikes (i.e. sprinters get a stiffer bike than can be had off the shelf) but use stock molds. Some even do full-custom carbon frames down to unique geometries (much easier with a Look-style lugged frame, not so easy with molded parts). However, Cervelo makes a big deal that all of their riders use off-the-shelf frames. I can't speak for other manufacturers, but I believe that fully custom bikes are not as common as they were when metal frames were the big thing. And unless the components are one-offs pretty much everything the guys in the Tour have is available to the general public. I just doesn't come cheap. For example, I could build a Trek Madone 6.9SSL with Red, power meter, and deep Carbon wheels for around $11,000. Not "unobtanium" like the auto/motorcycle racing stuff, but still pretty steep for the Average Joe.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

aengbretson said:


> Nowadays, most pro-level bikes are not that out-of-reach. It just costs $10,000 or so to get one that has carbon wheels, bar, stem, SRM power meter, etc. ...
> 
> For example, I could build a Trek Madone 6.9SSL with Red, power meter, and deep Carbon wheels for around $11,000. Not "unobtanium" like the auto/motorcycle racing stuff, but still pretty steep for the Average Joe.


Do teams generally spec their preferred brand and purchase? Or do teams shop for a mfg. sponsor and not suffer the cash outlay of 20 or so $10K bikes?

And I gather the bikes are swapped out each season? Or is their life expectancy shorter than that? Are they ragged out by the end of the TdF for example, and have to be swapped before the Giro? (Or whatever comes next... the Giro and the Vuelta are the only cycling terms I can toss around and appear to be a cognoscenti...)


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## SkiRacer55 (Apr 29, 2005)

*It kind of depends...*



Cadent said:


> Do teams generally spec their preferred brand and purchase? Or do teams shop for a mfg. sponsor and not suffer the cash outlay of 20 or so $10K bikes?
> 
> And I gather the bikes are swapped out each season? Or is their life expectancy shorter than that? Are they ragged out by the end of the TdF for example, and have to be swapped before the Giro? (Or whatever comes next... the Giro and the Vuelta are the only cycling terms I can toss around and appear to be a cognoscenti...)


...for example, Trek has always been the bike of whatever team Lance is on. I think the way it works is that Radio Shack is the main sponsor of Lance's team, meaning they pay all the travel, hotel bills, entry fees, maybe coaches salaries, and all the basic support costs...for which they get all kinds of exposure, brand recognition, etc. Trek supplies, of course, bikes...lots of bikes, plus mechanics, plus I think they take care of transporting all this good stuff, plus they may kick in for the team vehicles, etc. I think both Radio Shack and Trek actually contribute the the rider's salaries as well, and I think you can already figure that Lance's salary is well up there. There is usually a clothing sponsor, too...I dunno who is making Radio Shack's stuff these days. 

A good race bike obviously gets beat up, but unless a frame actually gets cracked, it's usually the components, and specifically consumables like tires and brake pads that get replaced the most often. The stuff really gets turned over because next year, the manufacturers are going to come up with something newer and more wonderful. Especially true of time trial bikes, but the standard roadie bikes are always getting improved. Understand, Trek pays out a lot of money to people like Lance, but, in addition to brand recognition, they get incredible feedback that helps them build better machines...which, of course, cyclists will spring for once they're convinced that a new Trek will give them a little bit of Lance...


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> I dunno who is making Radio Shack's stuff these days.


Nike, I think. Here's the sponsor page on the team website.
http://www.livestrong.com/teamradioshack/sponsors/


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

SkiRacer55 said:


> ... Understand, Trek pays out a lot of money to people like Lance, but, in addition to brand recognition, they get incredible feedback that helps them build better machines...which, of course, cyclists will spring for once they're convinced that a new Trek will give them a little bit of Lance...


Yeah, I see that. For example, what is Andy Schleck riding? I DON"T want that brand... it drops gears.... I am NOT going to have my 20 mile tour of Hocking Co. Ohio muffed by a bike that drops gears. Nope. Gonna get something reliable. Lance's Trek.

Wait... Lance's TREK.. you get in wrecks with TREKs. ... and flat tires. Nope, the Trek is out.

Maybe I will get Contador's bike.. wait..that frame looks to small. It is totally CF? Might be too heavy if it isn't

What is Tyler Farrar riding? Oh, wait..he isn't...that bike is out, it exhausts the rider.

What is Sanchez riding? Maybe that will work for me..oh..wait... Sanchez can't go downhill on his bike. That is out. Hocking Co. is nothing but hills.

What is Cadel Evans riding? That is a possibility...oh, wait... that bike can't go UPhill....

Guess I am back to a Schwinn with an internal hub/gearbox. Three gears, which is fine, since I only use one gear at a time. No one is wrecking on it. No one is losing downhill time on it. No one is being dropped going uphill on it. No one is getting flat tires on it. The Schwinn three-speed might be the perfect bike!!


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## SkiRacer55 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Okay, here's your answers...*



Cadent said:


> Yeah, I see that. For example, what is Andy Schleck riding? I DON"T want that brand... it drops gears.... I am NOT going to have my 20 mile tour of Hocking Co. Ohio muffed by a bike that drops gears. Nope. Gonna get something reliable. Lance's Trek.
> 
> Wait... Lance's TREK.. you get in wrecks with TREKs. ... and flat tires. Nope, the Trek is out.
> 
> ...


Contador and the rest of Team Astana are on Specialized...a good bike, the Roubaix model has won Paris-Roubaix a couple of times. 

Tyler Farrar (Garmin Transitions) is on Felt bikes...another good manufacturer. 

Sanchez is on an Orbea bike...another good one that I haven't ridden but I've heard good things about them. 

Cadel is on BMC, another fave race bike....


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## tbsurf (Apr 15, 2010)

*Race replica consumer models*

In the motorcycle world, there is hot competition among the large manufacturers (i.e. Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, etc.) to market the latest and greatest bikes to the consumers. Top of the line sport bikes go through significant changes every 2 years, with major trickle down of technology from the race bikes. However, the race bikes probably cost over $100k; the race replica models are in the $10-13k range (more for Euro brands). The race replica models are ridiculous on the street – how often do you need to go to 100 mph in first gear or get to run a 9 second ¼ mile? 

Is there a similar trickle down effect from racing in the cycling world, offering extensive updates at low cost?


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## SkiRacer55 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Yeah, there pretty much is...*



tbsurf said:


> In the motorcycle world, there is hot competition among the large manufacturers (i.e. Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, etc.) to market the latest and greatest bikes to the consumers. Top of the line sport bikes go through significant changes every 2 years, with major trickle down of technology from the race bikes. However, the race bikes probably cost over $100k; the race replica models are in the $10-13k range (more for Euro brands). The race replica models are ridiculous on the street – how often do you need to go to 100 mph in first gear or get to run a 9 second ¼ mile?
> 
> Is there a similar trickle down effect from racing in the cycling world, offering extensive updates at low cost?


...for example, the nominal price of the Cervelo R3s that the TDF teams are using...replete with Shimano DI2, super light wheels, and so forth, might be in the 8 to 10 K $ range. However, I can go out and buy a Cervelo RS frame (based on the R3 design, but a little bit more of a plush bike for long days in the saddle for non-pros) for $2500 or less, and then build it up with stuff like Shimano Ultegra 6700, Easton Circuit wheels, and so forth, for another $1500 or so, and I'll have a bike that really has about 90% of the performance of the TDF bikes at less than half the price...


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

It's not about the bike...


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

frpax said:


> It's not about the bike...


True, but the right bike makes you want to ride more, which is how you get good...

Unless we're talking about time trials or triathlons where money can simply buy a little extra speed.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

aengbretson said:


> True, but the right bike makes you want to ride more, which is how you get good...
> 
> Unless we're talking about time trials or triathlons where money can simply buy a little extra speed.


Sticking with the motorcycle analogy for a bit...the adage is "What wins on Sunday sells on Monday". 

Do bike mfgs. get a bump in sales from TdF or other Grand Prix-winning bikes?

And yeah, its not about the bikes...it isn't about the motorcycle either.


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## josephr (Jun 17, 2010)

frpax said:


> It's not about the bike...


so true...a 70 year old Eddy Mercx on a schwinn varsity would kick my arse all over the Tour de Trump! 

still, its fun to talk about the bikes that many of us may never ride, much less own! Who doesn't at least say "cool" when they see a Ferrari driving down the highway, right? 

curious though...are any of the competitors rolling on Ti frames or are they all CF?


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

> are any of the competitors rolling on Ti frames or are they all CF?


I believe they're all CF: titanium's trump card is that it's long-lasting which isn't a factor for these guys, therefore you should also bear in mind that the bikes used are often not treated the way you might expect because they're not expected to last forever. After a race they'll sometimes just quickly hose the bikes clean because they don't lose sleep over bearing wear etc. 

Regarding motorcycle racing, MotoGP motorcycles are all prototypes so you can't buy them whereas the likes of Superbikes are essentially production bike-based with modifications depending on the exact race formula. The 'cost' of such a motorcycle would have to take into account R&D costs, so the 'real' price of a MotoGP motorcycle would be far higher than SBK (into the millions of $$$ not tens of thousands). The cost to simply build up each 2009 factory Yamaha was about $60K I believe.



> Now, OK, granted, they are probably sitting in a studio in London doing this from the TV feeds... if it works for soccer, I assume it works for cycle races also. But Phil in particular appears to have a wonderful grasp of the terrain, the history and the people


As well as commentating from the finish town, IIRC Paul often rides part of the course in the morning to refresh his knowledge of the stages, climbs, any quirks and so on.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Cadent said:


> Sticking with the motorcycle analogy for a bit...the adage is "What wins on Sunday sells on Monday".
> 
> Do bike mfgs. get a bump in sales from TdF or other Grand Prix-winning bikes?
> 
> And yeah, its not about the bikes...it isn't about the motorcycle either.


To answer your question, yes. To the general cycling public in the USA, if Lance (or whoever) wins a big race on a Trek, they'll sell more bikes. They'll sell entry to mid level bikes to people that will ride them for a few months and then they'll sit in the garage more often than they will be ridden.


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## dgturc83 (Jul 18, 2010)

Why is the Team GC not as prestigious as the others? Never seems to get any mention except for yellow numbers. Seems like having a whole team finish with decent times would be more difficult than just one.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

And I heard mention of a team time trial... maybe.. for next year. THAT would be fascinating to watch. While I have read about the physics and tactics involved in team time trial, I haven't seen one.


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