# Tips for removing a stubborn cup?



## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Any tips for removing a stuck bottom bracket cup? It's a square taper BB, English thread. I removed the non-drive side without much difficulty. The drive side, won't budge. I can't seem to put enough force into it without the cup tool skipping out of the slots.

Also, just to comfirm I'm doing it right. For the drive side, the cup loosens by turning it clockwise, correct?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Opus51569 said:


> Any tips for removing a stuck bottom bracket cup? It's a square taper BB, English thread. I removed the non-drive side without much difficulty. The drive side, won't budge. I can't seem to put enough force into it without the cup tool skipping out of the slots.
> 
> Also, just to comfirm I'm doing it right. For the drive side, the cup loosens by turning it clockwise, correct?


Yes, the drive side is reverse threaded, so clockwise loosens.

I did a quick google search of *square taper bottom bracket removal *and there are a couple of YouTube vids available. Unfortunately, I have no tips to offer other than one vid mentioned heating the frame to get the right side free. Since I've never tried that, I can't vouch for it.

If you're interested, here's a link to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJxZtcE_2BE


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, I had decided that if it came to that I'd probably schlep it to the LBS. Frustrating to be so close (pulled the cranks and the left side) but can't get the last piece of the puzzle.

Thanks for confirming the clockwise rotation, though. I'd hate to think I had been tightening it the whole time.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Opus51569 said:


> Yeah, I had decided that if it came to that I'd probably schlep it to the LBS. Frustrating to be so close (pulled the cranks and the left side) but can't get the last piece of the puzzle.
> 
> Thanks for confirming the clockwise rotation, though. I'd hate to think I had been tightening it the whole time.


You could always try penetrating oil (or similar). It worked freeing the bolts on my lawn mower blade yesterday.  

I'd guess you're fighting some rust.


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## pvflyer (Oct 15, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> You could always try penetrating oil (or similar). It worked freeing the bolts on my lawn mower blade yesterday.
> 
> I'd guess you're fighting some rust.


 U'R the best, always helping and given good advice on this site.

I vote PJ352 for moderator of this site.

THNX PJ


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I'd second that emotion. PJ352 and wim have both always been generous with their time and knowledge.


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## zmudshark (Jan 28, 2007)

I've used a grade 5 bolt and some washers to hold the tool to the cup, and then use a big Jeebus bar on the end of the tool. Never failed. Slow and steady, rather than pounding. A bit of PB Blaster wont hurt either.


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## sandy555 (May 23, 2009)

Sheldon's method...

http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

At the bottom of the page Sheldon explains how to remove a stuck cup using a nut, bolt, and washers.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

So, if I'm understanding this, I find a bolt that will thread where the crank-arm pinch bolt would normally thread. I use that bolt and washers to hold the cup tool against the cup. This will allow me to get the leverage I need without the cup tool slipping out. Correct?


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## zmudshark (Jan 28, 2007)

Opus51569 said:


> So, if I'm understanding this, I find a bolt that will thread where the crank-arm pinch bolt would normally thread. I use that bolt and washers to hold the cup tool against the cup. This will allow me to get the leverage I need without the cup tool slipping out. Correct?


No, use a large bolt that goes right through the hole in the fixed cup, washers on either side. On the inside big enough/small enough to prevent it from messing with the bearing race, on the outside, big enough to hold the tool in place. This differs from the Sheldon Brown method in that the bolt and washers are only holding the tool, not used to try to get the cup off by themselves.

I have a Park Frame Straightening (FFS-2) tool that I use as leverage. A long pipe that fits over the end of your fixed cup tool will also work, though it may take a big diameter pipe to fit, depending on the tool you use.

I can take a picture later today if you need one.

Do you really have to remove the fixed cup? The only time I do is if I'm totally changing the BB, going from loose to cartridge, or Shimano to Campagnolo.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Either bolt the tool to the BB spindle or try using an axle QR (passed through the hollow spindle). Then clamp the BB cup in a strong vice on a good bench and using the frame as the lever, have at it. It WILL come out. Just make damn sure you know which way to turn that frame.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Round 2 goes to the cup. I managed to secure the cup tool to the cup without it slipping off, but with the amount of force I'm using, both the wrench and vise-grips slip off the cup tool and the cup still doesn't budge. 

I do have a bench vise so I could try that solution, but having put this much force on it already, I'm concerned that I'm either going to strip the cup or damage the shell. 

I wanted to remove the BB because it is long (apparently too long now) overdue for a thread cleaning. If the left side is any indication, there's grit in the threads and they're in need of a regreasing. 

At this point, though, I think I'm resigned to leave the right side as is. The spindle still turns smooth so I'll wait until the cartridge itself goes bad. At that point, I'll need to buy a new cartidge with new cups anyway. 

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions.


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## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

Opus51569 said:


> Round 2 goes to the cup. I managed to secure the cup tool to the cup without it slipping off, but with the amount of force I'm using, both the wrench and vise-grips slip off the cup tool and the cup still doesn't budge.
> 
> I do have a bench vise so I could try that solution, but having put this much force on it already, I'm concerned that I'm either going to strip the cup or damage the shell.
> 
> ...


What sort of fixed-cup tool are you using? If it's something like a wrench, then try doing what you did, bolting the thing in place, but slipping a long "cheater bar/pipe" over the handle (instead of the vise grips.) This is what zmudshark was getting at. I have an old piece of fencepost I use. You might also try to turn the cup the wrong way (i.e., tighten it) _slightly, then _resume attempting to loosen; sometimes this can break the corrosive layer just enough.

If it's an honest-to-goodness fixed-cup tool, such as a shop would use, I'd say try penetrating oil in abundance, soaked in for awhile (overnight would be fine.) Tapping on the assembly to help the oil penetrate can help.

What kind of frame is this? If it's steel or ti, I would go ahead and try putting the bike in a vise. You won't need the cheater bar, you'll just use the frame for leverage (but make _sure_ you're turning the _frame_ in the proper direction.) If it's aluminum, you might also try ammonia as a penetrant (disclaimer: I've never owned an aluminum bike, so I don't know if the BB threading is the same metal as the frame, or if the threads are inserts, in which case the ammonia wouldn't do squat.) 

If it's carbon fiber, of course you'll be needing full body armor to protect you from the shrapnel of the inevitable explosion....


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

A "no-fail" trick that I used to use, was to put the wrench on the cup and start tapping it with a hammer. Doesn't have to be hard taps, just lots of them. After 20 or 30 taps, you will see the cup start to move. (If you turn it the wrong way, the cup will be almost impossible to get off)
If you are tapping the correct direction, you can't hurt the bike. I would do this with both wheels on the bike, and the tires pumped up to 120 psi.


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## zmudshark (Jan 28, 2007)

Leverage is your friend. A long pipe over the tool and steady pressure will get it.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

zmudshark said:


> Leverage is your friend. A long pipe over the tool and steady pressure will get it.


I tried the leverage with my last attempt, a piece of fence post over the wrench first...started to strip where the wrench attached to the cup tool. Tried the same with with vise grips...same result.

I haven't tried Mr. Grumpy's hammer-tap suggestion or the bench vise idea. The other methods I tried (before bolting the cup tool to the cup) started to strip the splines in the cup itself. I think I am at that crossroads, where trying other options might work, but also might strip the cup further. I should also add that I'm the type of person who tends to fix things until they break. I'm trying hard not to do that in this case . Thus, I figure I should wait until the cartridge fails and needs to be replaced. If I can't get it out then, I'll take it to the LBS. Then if the extraction is too ugly, at least they will be able to chase the threads afterward.


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## BikeGeek (Mar 19, 2005)

Before more torque is applied what brand of frame is it. While 95 percent or more bikes unthread clockwise in the drive side there are some frames that this is not the case. It is known as an italian threaded bottom bracket. Assuming it is a standard bottom bracket BSA thread either use more torque of find a big impact wrench that will fit a bottom bracket tool. The other option is just pay the shop to do it.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

BikeGeek said:


> Before more torque is applied what brand of frame is it. While 95 percent or more bikes unthread clockwise in the drive side there are some frames that this is not the case. It is known as an italian threaded bottom bracket. Assuming it is a standard bottom bracket BSA thread either use more torque of find a big impact wrench that will fit a bottom bracket tool. The other option is just pay the shop to do it.


The frame is a 2006 Trek Pilot 1.0, so I'm guessing it's a standard thread (clockwise to remove on the drive side).

Everyone feel free to post other tips you may have. I'm sure there are other n00b mechanics like myself that would benefit from the advice and might stumble on this thread. For me, though, I'm going to let it be for now. Thanks again.


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## turbomatic73 (Jan 22, 2004)

had the same problem last weekend...was convinced the cup was frozen in there, then went to the auto parts store for some Liquid Wrench. Sprayed a ton of it around the shell, came inside, made a sandwich, watched some tv, then came back to the garage. Came right off on the first attempt...no cheater bar or anything.


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## zmudshark (Jan 28, 2007)

Aluminum with steel, dif method of attack.

Industrial strength ammonia or Kroil first. I don't think anything else has a chance.


This is a splined BB? Forget my method. The tool will sit too far outside the cup to apply pressure evenly. I thought you had an old fixed cup with two flats.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*+1 on the hammer*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> A "no-fail" trick that I used to use, was to put the wrench on the cup and start tapping it with a hammer. Doesn't have to be hard taps, just lots of them. After 20 or 30 taps, you will see the cup start to move. (If you turn it the wrong way, the cup will be almost impossible to get off).


Agreed. This is a good way to crack the bond that has formed between frame and BB cup.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

*Update with Art...*

Who am I kidding...I can't leave well enough alone...that would be admitting defeat...

So, last night I picked up some Liquid Wrench, sprayed some on the cup, tapped it for a while with a rubber mallet to try to allow as much to work in as possible.

I let that sit for an hour and tried to remove the cup...no luck.

So, I tried Mr. Grumpy's suggestion...I bolted the cup removal tool to the cup...attached a wrench to the tool...and used a hammer on the wrench 20 or 30 times...still no luck...

So...I applied a little more of the Liquid Wrench and decided to let it sit overnight.

This morning, it still wasn't budging...so I tried the hammer again...nothing. The only thing I hadn't tried is the bench vise idea. Up it went, with the cup removal tool now clamped into the vise. I tried pivoting the bike (making sure the force/direction on the tool was clockwise)...nothing. I tried more pressure until I thought the vise was stripping the corners of the cup tool. I took the bike out of the vise and couldn't believe what I saw. I posted the pic below because I honestly didn't know if folks would believe me without a pic. The cup tool is okay...the cup itself didn't budge a millimeter...but I am using enough force to gouge a chunk out of the vise.

Since the cup has never been removed before, the only thing I can think of at this point is that when the bike was originally built up, the threads stripped and it has basically been welded inside all along. I reassembled the cranks and am now back to leaving it as is until the cartridge fails...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

You 100% sure it's English thread and not the reverse thread Italian threading? My Masi and Colnago are that way.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Unless Trek used an Italian thread for their 2006 Pilot 1.0, otherwise I'm pretty sure it's English.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Opus51569 said:


> Unless Trek used an Italian thread for their 2006 Pilot 1.0, otherwise I'm pretty sure it's English.


That's quite a safe bet. If you posted the frame's make I didn't read thoroughly enough.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

No problem. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## BikeGeek (Mar 19, 2005)

One more suggestion. As long as you have a place to park the bike that is not going to be damaged by dripping penetrating oil would be to put a lot of penetraing oil down the seat tube. Assuming the seat tube has an opening into the bottom bracket shell and ride the bike with the oil in the bottom bracket for a week or so and hope the pedaling stress flexes things enough to work the oil into the threads. Of course the down side would be a constant oil seep from any tube open to the bb and a possible drip where the cable guide screws into the bottom bracket.

The last resort involves a power drill and a die grinder but that is a time consuming ugly last resort that is on the fun scale about the same as cutting out a frozen seat post.

Good luck.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Opus51569 said:


> Who am I kidding...I can't leave well enough alone...that would be admitting defeat...
> 
> So, last night I picked up some Liquid Wrench, sprayed some on the cup, tapped it for a while with a rubber mallet to try to allow as much to work in as possible.
> 
> ...


The idea of leaving it in until the cartridge fails seems to be smart. Then, take it to a bike shop to have it removed.

That said, and I apologize in advance, are you SURE you were turning it the right way in the vise? I say this because I used that technique a week or so ago for the first time. It just totally messed with my mind to rotate the frame the correct way to loosen the cup. The thread is reversed, and then you're turning the frame, not the bolt. I just almost short circuited. And I'm a guy who never has to think twice about which way to turn a bolt regardless of which point of view I have on it. I have no problem with "switching" my mind when driving on the left side in Australia or New Zealand. I really, really had to think this through,and then it worked like a charm.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I understand what you mean. I did have to take a moment and think things through once I had the bike in the vise. The first instinct is to turn the bike in the same direction you've been trying to turn the cup. To get clockwise rotation relative to the bike, though, the bike has to move in opposition counter-clockwise.


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