# EDS Sports - Fiber Flight (carbon) spokes



## DMtbRider (Feb 9, 2004)

Purchased a 'kit' of carbon fiber spokes manufactured by EDS Sports, circa 1993-94.

I recognized EDS from the early aerospace carbin fiber days (I used to work at McDonnell Douglas, Long Beach). The kit looked fairly complete so I took the opportunity to pick it up.

So, can anyone shed any light on these? And what interest is there?


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it's *EDO Sports*, not EDS. The reviews haven't been kind.

http://www.firstflightbikes.com/1991_Spec_M2.htm

http://archive.mtbr.com/09/0EFCA181.php



> _From http://www.answers.com/topic/edo-corporation_:
> 
> "In December 1988 Osborn died at the age of 95. With the end of the Cold War and declining defense appropriations, the company that bore his name was now forced to transition into a new era. With revenues falling in the early 1990s, it created EDO Sports, employing its expertise in the manufacture of golf club driver heads as well as _high-tech carbon-based bicycle spokes for racers_."


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## DMtbRider (Feb 9, 2004)

*Oops, you're right*

Scooper,

Mis-typo. Yeah, though EDS (Elect. Data Systems) was familiar enough that it went right by me.

Hmmm, noticed that both reviews were by/for Mtb not road. The kit I have is labeled 700c, so strictly for road. I've never understood the idea of carbon fiber for mtb'ing. Local rider w/ some high-end euro wheels has busted out spokes even w/ modern wheels and technology.

Thanks for the links. I tried a Google search, but then again I may have typed EDS...ha ha.

Daniel


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Just for kicks, I downloaded the patent. Here's the first page:


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

In THIS REVIEW by Competitive Cyclist of the Mavic Cosmic Carbone Ultimate Wheelset (road), the reviewer commented, _"Years ago, Fiber Flight carbon fiber spokes were a danger to anyone who built a wheel with them -- an errant pebble seemed to be able to destroy a spoke."_


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## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

They're strong vertically, but ANY kind of side load can break them. I had a pair of mountain bike wheels and a pair of road wheels. The rear mountain bike wheel sacrificed itself in a race...first one spoke then another, then another...I walked in that day. The road wheel grenaded in a crit crash...another rider's pedal took out about ten spokes! Retired both remaining fronts right after, re-laced 'em with DT stainless spokes, still have both pair.


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## p7scott (Aug 12, 2011)

*fiber flight spokes, another view*

New to the forum, Just happened on this post and thought I would add some information.
Fiber Flight spokes are quite different in the manner they need to be built. I have been riding them for 15 years. I was a shop owner during some of those years and built many sets for both Mt bike and Road. The set I ride on now were raced on by the captain of our women’s team in the 1994 OR-IDA women’s stage race, and for that whole season in fact. They were returned to me when she quit racing. I am a 200 lb+ rider, the front is a 28 spoke straight lace, and the back is a 32 spoke 3X, symmetrical lace (inside flange, pushers). I have completed over ten centuries, and thousands of additional miles during these years. The wheel set got its first touch up on a trueing stand in 2001, I re-tensioned and took out a slight wobble then back they went on my bike. I routinely bunny hop RR crossings and cattle guards and have never had an issue. They are light and wicked fast. In a cross wind a little squirrelly though. 
Now it is a fact that side loads are the weak point of the spokes, but if tensioned correctly, it takes a pretty good knock to cause a break. My only break was when my wife put a suitcase into the side of my wheel in a hotel. The up side is they are very easy to replace. Building the wheel set is critical in the manner you tension and then re tension during the first week. My son rides a Mt bike set and has broken some but never on the trail. The second gen Mt bike spokes were round not aero and that significantly increased their toughness. I have a significant stock of spokes and parts and though I long ago sold my bike shop I still service several sets for customers. Yea they occasionally break one, but usually in a garage impact. The catastrophic failures described in this thread are most often due to incorrect built procedures, though a peddle in the wheel during a race is pretty much not recoverable in any circumstances, spoke type notwithstanding.


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## clalor (May 29, 2010)

I started working at EDO Sport's parent company, EDO Fiber Science, back in '99 after Sports had been dissolved and found a box of these in the test lab. From what I recall, my supervisor promptly got rid of them, saying something along the lines that the general manager wouldn't be happy if he happened to see them.

I still have one of the spokes at home. It works great for opening letters.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

All my experience with them in the 90's was bad. Bad bad bad. Personally i wouldnt have a darn thing to do with them. They did and still scare the bejebus out of me. 

DT swiss is a much safer way to go. 

Now if you were building up a classic wall hanger, go for it. I wouldn't ride them or trust them. Despite what the poster above said about success with them. THe down side to them is just way to high.

Bill


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## p7scott (Aug 12, 2011)

To “clalor” the EDO employee , I visited EDO many times in those years, the sports guys were housed in a trailer out back. I was sorry to see them disappear, they were working on a carbon fiber crank at that time, I did see a proto-type but never got one to ride and test. It was revolutionary in those days, but now its common place. Carbon fiber is used in so many cycling products now. It is the pioneers that are remembered and get credit for forging new territory however. 
To crossracer, who is “afraid” of them, I can only say that as a licensed firearms instructor I see many inexperienced students who have the “bejebus” scared out of them by the mere sight of a gun. However with experience tempered by, and augmented with education, and proper training in the correct use and care of a firearm, they soon get over their fear. I’m sorry you had a bad experience with carbon fiber spokes. They are after all inanimate objects, like a gun, and subject to improper application and uses, like a gun, as such don’t blame the inanimate object, blame the builder/user. Your experience while real, is anecdotal and stands as a statistical outlier with regard to the spokes reliability and performance. I personally built and sold dozens of sets of wheels with fiber flight spokes, both Mt and Road and never had a catastrophic failure. All actual carbon spoke failures were impact related, not ride related. In the early period there were some failures at the “J” end of the spoke, which is the stainless steel component, the heads of the J end would crack and brake off. This was due to poor manufacturing from the supplier of the J ends, DT as I recall, but the issue was due to manufacturing difficulties with the very short length of the J end not the workmanship per say, it was resolved at any rate and the problem stopped. Catastrophic failures can just as easily happen to wheels built with stainless spokes if one ignores all the customary rules of proper building procedures. Fiber Flight spokes don’t build the same and have their own rules, break these rules by building them like a stainless spoke and you will have the sad experience of an unreliable, unsafe wheel. It will however be the wheel builders fault, not the spoke. 
As I get older my bike does spend more time hanging on the wall, so maybe you are a prophet of sorts, they do look cool hanging there, and they ride and perform magnificently when they are not.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I respect your opinion, but the two comparisons between firearms and these spokes are not applicable. A well made firearm should not fail, discharge, or otherwise become inoperable if a side load was placed on it. These spokes can, will and do break. 

If the idea was so great, why are they still not produced today, and or otherwise ruling the market? I stand by my assertion, they were and are junk. Any item that can fail via side load (which would barely make a DT spoke blink) is just a bad idea. 

Bill


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## the_don (Mar 23, 2008)

crossracer said:


> I respect your opinion, but the two comparisons between firearms and these spokes are not applicable. A well made firearm should not fail, discharge, or otherwise become inoperable if a side load was placed on it. These spokes can, will and do break.
> 
> If the idea was so great, why are they still not produced today, and or otherwise ruling the market? I stand by my assertion, they were and are junk. Any item that can fail via side load (which would barely make a DT spoke blink) is just a bad idea.
> 
> Bill


Ummmm elephant in the room anyone? Lightweight wheelsets use carbon spokes. 

The only difference is that those are not replaceable if broken. 

I wonder how they would fare with a pedal through them.


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## p7scott (Aug 12, 2011)

You miss the point entirely, the comparison was about the fear, not the item creating the fear. On that subject the point was spot on. Booster rockets fail if an "o" ring gets too cold. Technology and the advancement thereof come with some inherent risks. Some choose to participate, others to sit on the sidelines stricken with fear of possible injury. I don't mean to call you cowardly, not at all, just to point out that cutting edge, pioneering technology often holds risk, to both the users and the pioneers. Your argument that "If the idea was so great, why are they still not produced today, is infantile and suffers from more than a few logical fallacies, but that is another discussion. Many good ideas don't make it to market. For example, on the topic of guns, Jon M. Browning invented many remarkable firearms that never got produced, not because the design or idea was bad, but for other business reasons. If you have some knowledge of EDO and its history or reason for discontinuing the spokes, speak up and please provide some citations of the source of your knowledge. Otherwise keep your limited understanding and the resultant opinion it produces of the product and its history to just that , your uninformed, frightened opinion. I sir have a depth of knowledge of the product, its benefits and its shortcomings, knowledge born of experience, first hand experience with a data set consisting of more than a single data point. Again a statistical outlier in your case, not the mean of multiple data points.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

My "lack of knowage" has all to do with seeing first hand how fragile these spokes are. 

And this is a forum where we have the freedom to discuss any and all thing. 

And I have seen today's carbon spokes, a pedal in the spokes of any spoke (steel, anything) will cause a failure of any wheel. These spokes would fail with almost any side load.

So I stand by my original opinion, if these spokes were so great the market would have embraced them. But the market didn't, and the spokes disappeared. You can offer whatever reasons why EDO stopped producing theses spokes, but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that they weren't selling, or that the problems with the breakage was producing other problems for the company.

Anyway its been a fun discussion, but lets agree to disagree before this becomes a huge ugly thing. If p7scott worked on these spokes and helped bring them to market then I understand his defending the spoke and its design. I have no desire to trade ugly remarks with someone I don't know. So I am done with this thread. 

Time to go back to talking about fun Retro bike stuff, like how much is this bike worth. Lol. Lol lol

Bill


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## the_don (Mar 23, 2008)

crossracer said:


> My "lack of knowage" has all to do with seeing first hand how fragile these spokes are.
> 
> And this is a forum where we have the freedom to discuss any and all thing.
> 
> ...


So many failures in logic it is hard to count. 

I am making a logical fallacy. But i will continue to do it and make more logical fallacies. 

Sheez. Come on!


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