# Cassete wobble - is this normal ?



## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

OK, I've been riding for almost 25 years, with I don't know how many different hubs/wheels - Ultegra, Dura-Ace conventional hubs, various Mavic pre built (Ksyriums mostly, 3 diff sets, still have 2). Reynolds carbon wheels, and now a set (the newest, less than a year old) of Easton EC 90 SLX carbon wheels. Riding today, on the Eastons, which have an Ultegra 10 speed cassette (spacer installed behind it), and my pals noticed that the cassette, not always, but often (I'm thinking it depends on what cog I had the chain on), the cassette wobbles, noticeably. I've ridden about 80,000 miles, on a lot of different wheels, and I've never seen a wobble like I'm seeing (sometimes, not 100% of the time, comes and goes) with these relatively new (my newest) wheels. I can take hold of the largest cog, and wiggle it with my hands, enough to see it move. I try the same with my Reynolds Assaults (more miles than the Eastons), and the cassette seems to be rock solid, I can't see it move at all and don't recall seeing it wobble on the bike. I asked my local shop about this, and they tell me it's normal, that some "play" is usual. OK, I can buy that, but just seems to be an awful lot with these wheels (if I look down, I can see it at times). Has it been this way since the wheels were new - can't say. Is this normal, for a cassette to wobble visibly ?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> I can take hold of the largest cog, and wiggle it with my hands, enough to see it move.


No, not normal.

Either the cassette is incorrectly installed, or there is excess play in the freehub.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

And fire the shop that told you that play is "normal".

A little wobble is common. But play is not normal. Did you use the right spacers? A 10sp Shimano cassette on a 10sp freehub needs a 1mm spacer. 10sp Shimano on an 11sp freehub needs a 1.8mm spacer and 1mm spacer. Sram 10sp does not use the 1mm spacer.


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## David23 (Jun 5, 2012)

I had the same problem, realized I had the wrong spacer. Problem solved with the correct one.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Sounds like I will need to see if Easton can confirm what freehub I have, I am not sure if they are 10 speed or 11 speed, I bought the wheels from Nashbar on clearance about the end of the summer last year. Considering they were clearance and way cheap (less than half retail), I'd guess they are 10 speed. I have one of a few spacers I have accumulated over the years (they come with Shimano cassettes I'm quite sure) installed now. I will start with Easton and see what they can tell me.


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## cyclintruckin (Feb 10, 2012)

I had the same problem with a set of EA-50's to the point on a ride the wheel went sideways and rubbed the frame. Turned out for what ever reason the freehub body was loose, took 2 5mm allen wrenches and tightened it down no more problems. IDK if Easton is leaving them loose from the factory for some reason or what.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

Lots of shop monkeys are too cool to use a torque wrench. Also the small wrench that you use on small parts, can't be used for this much torque. You need a big automotive wrench. Tighten the lock ring to the correct torque, which is written on the ring. The specified torque is a lot and if they just tightened it to a few clicks, it's too loose. Fire the shop that says that this is normal.

Also you could skip the part about how great you are.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Tlaloc said:


> Lots of shop monkeys are too cool to use a torque wrench. Also the small wrench that you use on small parts, can't be used for this much torque. You need a big automotive wrench. Tighten the lock ring to the correct torque, which is written on the ring. The specified torque is a lot and if they just tightened it to a few clicks, it's too loose. Fire the shop that says that this is normal.
> 
> Also you could skip the part about how great you are.


I have been going to this shop for years, I am pretty sure they tighten it enough. Though I don't have an automotive torque wrench (anymore, used to), I do have a box/open wrench (it's not a "small wrench") that is long enough to reach the outside edge of the wheel when I have one end on the cassette socket. I'd bet that I've got it tight enough when I tighten it down with this wrench). 

Sorry, but I don't understand your comment about "skip the part about how great you are", don't know what you mean by that. If you are referring to my comments about how long / far I've ridden, I guess you are missing my point completely...trying to illustrate that this isn't the first wheelset I've ridden on, and that in all my years/miles, on many different wheelsets/hubs, I've never seen a cassette wobble like this. 

I will check out what cyclintruckin said, now that he mentioned it, I believe I had to tighten the body down on one of my Reynolds once a good few years back. Forgot about that. I've also emailed Easton support, hopefully they will reply with their take on the matter.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tlaloc said:


> You need a big automotive wrench.


What defines a "big automotive wrench"? Isn't a wrench.... just a wrench. 


> Tighten the lock ring to the correct torque, which is written on the ring. The specified torque is a lot and if they just tightened it to a few clicks, it's too loose.


If he has the wrong spacers, he could tighten it to 10x the torque... and it would still be loose.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

DBtheCyclist said:


> I have been going to this shop for years, I am pretty sure they tighten it enough. Though I don't have an automotive torque wrench (anymore, used to), I do have a box/open wrench (it's not a "small wrench") that is long enough to reach the outside edge of the wheel when I have one end on the cassette socket. I'd bet that I've got it tight enough when I tighten it down with this wrench).


Ummmm, No. Use a torque wrench, to the correct torque value. Why? If you don't it could be too loose (as you are experiencing now), or you could over tighten. Too tight can/will damage the cassette, bearings, hub body, and also cause the wheel to not spin freely. If it wasn't necessary for specific torque, they'd tell you to use a big wrench with cheater bar and gorilla torque it down.

If you could spend $400+/- for wheels and another $50 for a cassette, go to Harbor Freight .com buy a $20 torque wrench and do the job right. The wrench isn't shop quality, but you're not a shop and it'll do for your personal needs.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

tlg said:


> What defines a "big automotive wrench"? Isn't a wrench.... just a wrench.


A big torque wrench in the context of this discussion is one that can be used to tighten the casette locking ring to 40mn, not one of the small ones used to tighten things like the cable retaining bolts. Also to work on this you need a chain whip.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Overtightening the cassette lock ring will not damage the hub or cassette. It'll strip the threads in the lockring or freehub.

But it's never wrong to use a torque wrench unless you're using it as a breaker bar or hammer.

You should be able to tell if the cassette is loose on the freehub or the freehub is loose on the wheel by wiggling it and observing (with wheel out of the frame). If the cassette is loose on the freehub you need more spacer no matter what Easton says. I have a few 10sp hubs which need an extra 1mm spacer. All the 11sp freeehubs I have seen have been marked 11sp somewhere. You'll have to remove the cassette to check.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

junior1210 said:


> Ummmm, No. Use a torque wrench, to the correct torque value. Why? If you don't it could be too loose (as you are experiencing now), or you could over tighten. Too tight can/will damage the cassette, bearings, hub body, and also cause the wheel to not spin freely. If it wasn't necessary for specific torque, they'd tell you to use a big wrench with cheater bar and gorilla torque it down.
> 
> If you could spend $400+/- for wheels and another $50 for a cassette, go to Harbor Freight .com buy a $20 torque wrench and do the job right. The wrench isn't shop quality, but you're not a shop and it'll do for your personal needs.


I'm not intending to get into a debate about using proper torque, however I will say I've been putting on cassettes (my own, I change them often enough, sometimes change the gearing, also to clean and I've had plenty of wheels). I've never found myself to leave a cassette lock ring loose, and I feel pretty safe in saying that I've never had anything bent or broken from putting a cassette on. 

I don't THINK that the cassette was wobbling like this from day 1 with these wheels, though I can't say that with 100% certainty. Until I took the cassette off yesterday, cleaned it up, made sure the spacer was under it (it was, the one that I believe shimano supplies with their cassettes, I have a few of they laying around still), I don't think the cassette was off since I got the wheels late last summer. I think something has changed here, not that it was like this originally, as I too had noticed the wobble (sometimes I look down at the cassette, to see what gear I'm in) but as I said, it doesn't always wobble, so I thought maybe it was my perspective and my body / head moving back and forth when I pedalled. Then my friends said something about it when behind me yesterday, that's when all this began, when I started to look into it. But I usually have (the same) riders behind me on various rides, and they hadn't noticed it before, so I'm thinking this problem hasn't been present for a long time.

A torque wrench sure wouldn't hurt, however I don't think not having one is the cause of the problem, and that having one will solve this particular problem. 

Please, I know that all of you don't know me, or how much I do know, but of course I have a chain whip (2 actually), and a cassette lock ring socket, and a long wrench which will give sufficient leverage to take a sufficiently tight lock ring off, or put it on sufficiently tight  I appreciate the "simple, basic" suggestions as to a solution, however really, I think this problem is something other than that. I bet I have installed or taken off a cassette 50 times over the years, I have done that before, many times, without issue. I'll also add that a friend had a loose cassette (the lock ring wasn't tight), and man was his bike making a lot of noise, pretty obviously something was really wrong (but that was of course easily fixed). My bike isn't making noise, and it isn't shifting bad, just has this very visible wobble (sometimes, I think it's when the chain is in a bigger cog (the biggest 3 are all mounted together on the cassette spider, the rest are loose cogs put on one at a time). I think a problem has developed that wasn't there before. PERHAPS the cassette body has gotten loose, as one poster said. I'll check that when I get home. If anyone has any other idea, besides it may be too loose or (unlikely) too tight (I think we've covered these), please by all means I'd love to hear it


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tlaloc said:


> A big torque wrench in the context of this discussion is one that can be used to tighten the casette locking ring to 40mn, not one of the small ones used to tighten things like the cable retaining bolts. Also to work on this you need a chain whip.


So by "big automotive wrench" you mean a "big torque wrench". It would be helpful to have clear terminology. "Big" and "automotive" are pretty useless descriptions. 
A torque wrench capable of 37ft-lbs will cover Shimano, Sram, and Campy lockring torque specs.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Didn't mean to suggest you're not capable of doing decent wrenching, sorry if it came off that way. Point being, you spent decent coin on quality parts, why wouldn't you use the mfgr recommended tools for the job? At least then, if problem persists, you'll know for sure it wasn't the install job that's the problem.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

For some reason my first reply to this didn't appear so if this is redundant I apologize. You are defending a shop that screwed up your bike and then lied to you about it. Your trust in them is misplaced.

A Shimano locking ring has a torque spec. of 40 newton meters etched into it. This is because they want you to torque it to 40nm. DON'T put your giant wrench on it and torque it to some random large torque.

When you buy a casette it will come with a spacer. This is because most freehubs are 9/10 speed and you need the spacer for a 10 speed casette. If you put it together correctly and torque it to the correct torque it won't wobble.

You need a special tool for the locking ring, a torque wrench that has the range to do 40mn and a chain whip. With these tools you can easily change casettes.

No you don't understand my comment. Your bragging about how experienced you are is irrelevant to the technical question you asked and only will alienate your listeners. In sports there are plenty of people who think that they are great and won't hesitate to tell you so. Don't be one of them.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

ericm979 said:


> Overtightening the cassette lock ring will not damage the hub or cassette. It'll strip the threads in the lockring or freehub.
> 
> But it's never wrong to use a torque wrench unless you're using it as a breaker bar or hammer.
> 
> You should be able to tell if the cassette is loose on the freehub or the freehub is loose on the wheel by wiggling it and observing (with wheel out of the frame). If the cassette is loose on the freehub you need more spacer no matter what Easton says. I have a few 10sp hubs which need an extra 1mm spacer. All the 11sp freeehubs I have seen have been marked 11sp somewhere. You'll have to remove the cassette to check.


Forgot to mention, yesterday after I got back (wheel in hand) from the local shop (who didn't have any answers after merely wiggling the cassette, as I did, and noticed some play), and seeing the post about different spacer thicknesses, I did take the cassette off and just for grins added a 2nd spacer (as I don't have any with different thicknesses), just to see if anything would be any different. Though I could notice the lock ring took much fewer turns with my fingers to get to the point of using the wrench, the cassette still wobbles with my fingers (I didn't try to ride it like this). So I went back to one spacer. Wiggling it with my fingers, I don't notice any difference with one spacer or 2. As best as I can tell, I think the hub cassette body is what is wiggling, not the cassette being loose on the cassette body. When I first took it off yesterday, began to check it out, I had to use some force (after removing the lock ring) to get it free from the body - I'm quite sure that is normal, as small notches form over time, in the body, resulting in the cassette not just falling off if you turn the wheel over for example, you have to work a bit, sometimes, to get the cassette off the body once the lock ring has been removed.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Do you like your bike and yourself?

Are you anything other than a trained bike shop mechanic with "calibrated hands"?

If you answered yes to both of these, GET A TORQUE WRENCH. They aren't that expensive. You need one that can tighten to 40 n-m if you want to work on your cassette (Shimano or SRAM). I own 2 - 1 that works from 2 to 15 n-m, 1 that works from 15 to 80 n-m. These have a ratchet that clicks when you reach proper torque. Beware that it is just a feel, it will not prevent you from overtorqueing. So you must be sensitive to the feel of this indicator.

To work on your cassette, you will also need a special cassette socket as well as a chain whip.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

If the casette is installed correctly and your casette is still wobbling you have to look for other causes like loose or worn out wheel bearings, or more likely, the bearing or bushing in your free hub.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Tlaloc said:


> For some reason my first reply to this didn't appear so if this is redundant I apologize. You are defending a shop that screwed up your bike and then lied to you about it. Your trust in them is misplaced.
> 
> A Shimano locking ring has a torque spec. of 40 newton meters etched into it. This is because they want you to torque it to 40nm. DON'T put your giant wrench on it and torque it to some random large torque.
> 
> ...


I am not trying to alienate anyone, I am just trying to illustrate that I have changed a cassette before, many times. So I have a chain whip and cassette lock ring tool and a wrench (though not a torque wrench, not a ratcheting one, I do have 2 Park torque wrenches, smaller range, and bigger range, I'll be sure to try out using the bigger one so that matter can be put to rest) that is long enough to get very good leverage (it is over a foot long). Don't know how I would do this without even one of those 3 tools  I'm also trying to say that I have taken off and put on cassettes many times over the years - and the cassette was NOT taken off in many months - so I'm not thinking this is a mis-installed cassette matter. Now, I could be wrong, of course, but though I'm not a bike shop mechanic, I'm not one who is totally inexperienced either, that's what I'm trying to say. 

And to your comment that states the bike shop messed up my bike lied about it, and I'm defending them...I never said the bike shop messed up my bike, and never said they lied about anything...I noticed that I had an issue, asked them about it, and they said they (one young, perhaps inexperienced kid, perhaps not even a guy who wrenches on bikes...I've already brought up the matter with the store manager... and was told he is very knowledgeable - perhaps I didn't convey well how much it wobbles - nothing like I've ever seen before on any of my other wheels over the years) thought it was usual and didn't do anything with the wheel...they didn't mess anything up, and didn't lie about anything...I never indicated either of those thing occurred. I just want to clarify that.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

patientttt said:


> I want to start doing maintenance on my 86 Toyota Pickup truck, I've bought a Haynes manual and a factory service manual. I need to change the shocks and fix a leak at the exhaust manifold. The manuals all give torque specs for these fixes but when I watch videos online certified mechanics only use torque wrenches on engine work, not on work like this. They can probably do it just by feel but would it be okay for a newbie like me to do it as well? I can't afford a $100 dollar torque wrench and all the ones at around $30 bucks have not so good reviews.


Think you are in the wrong forum dude


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

cyclintruckin said:


> I had the same problem with a set of EA-50's to the point on a ride the wheel went sideways and rubbed the frame. Turned out for what ever reason the freehub body was loose, took 2 5mm allen wrenches and tightened it down no more problems. IDK if Easton is leaving them loose from the factory for some reason or what.


Thanks, I'll check this. I did check this last night, they were tight.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Tlaloc said:


> If the casette is installed correctly and your casette is still wobbling you have to look for other causes like loose or worn out wheel bearings, or more likely, the bearing or bushing in your free hub.


I would hope that a set of nearly $2000 (msrp) Easton wheels with (factory) ceramic bearings wouldn't have these issues after only a few thousand miles, however anything is possible, and I agree with this opinion as to possible causes of what I'm seeing.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

One thing that irks me about this: If the correct torque matters so much, then why are there so few square-drive lockring tools?


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Mr Evil said:


> One thing that irks me about this: If the correct torque matters so much, then why are there so few square-drive lockring tools?


Good point Mr. Evil  I'm not sure that my Park (bicycle tool) torque wrench, the "bigger" one, without actually having it in hand, could be used here. Now, I have a large array of automotive tools, sockets, ratchets, wrenches, though I sold my automotive tool torque wrench long ago, I might have a socket that would fit over the lock ring tool, it is a six sided type nut, maybe an inch (that's a pretty big bolt as cars go), like automotive bolts, but I don't know that my Park torque wrench would fit that socket (I'm sure that socket to fit on the lock ring socket would be a 1/2 inch drive, maybe I have enough adapters to make the transition). I certainly get the "torque matters" thing, nowadays so much on a bike is or can be carbon, and definitely don't want to go too tight on that. But there's no carbon involved here, in this hub. I think one would have to be WAY over the torque spec, in order to actually damage any of the metal parts inside. I'd have to think that even myself, but more so a world class sprinter, would put way more stress (and torque) on hub and wheel part when in a hard sprint, than I do with my arm and a wrench


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## cyclintruckin (Feb 10, 2012)

After all the quibbling over torque wrenches I hope you update us as to what the problem was/is.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

cyclintruckin said:


> After all the quibbling over torque wrenches I hope you update us as to what the problem was/is.


Well, I wish I knew. I don't as yet. Where I am now...emailed Easton service this morning, describing what's happening. No reply as yet. Talked to an old acquaintance who used to own a bike shop and can do any wrenching there is to be done on a bike. He suggested I take the hub apart, check to see if I have a bent axle. I've never had a hub apart but he found me this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e-Ygjm9oWY that showed, from Easton themselves I'm pretty sure, how to take the cassette body off, which is where to start, in disassembling the hub. With the wheel off, I'd say I'm pretty certain the hub body is wobbling on the hub (and that the cassette is secure on the cassette body - I also took my ultegra cassette off and put a SRAM Red cassette (all one piece except the smallest 2 cogs - it is a very snug fit, I actually had to file off the little burs I had on the splines of the cassette body from the cogs on the Ultegra cassette), no spacer used on the Red, no difference, wobble still there (with the wheel off, I haven't ridden the bike)). Wanted to take the cassette body off and see what I could see, but in doing what is shown in the video, the body won't budge (it is hard to grab, and I'm not about to start banging on it with say a hammer). Put the little (5mm wrench) cap back on over the body, tightened it down snug (note that Easton doesn't use a torque wrench here), and then put the Red cassette on (after cleaning up the splines, to remove burrs, with a file). It's very snug, and the wobble which appears to be the cassette body wobbling on the hub, is still there. I have 2 sets of Reynolds carbon wheels, Assaults and Strikes, both have the same basic "Reynolds" hub, their lowest end hub, and as best as I can tell, there is no wobble on them at all. Here is the hub I believe I have http://www.eastoncycling.com/bike/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/R4SL_Rear_Hub_Drawing.pdf everything I can see on the hub looks like this. I think the next step will be to take it to my shop, or my ex shop owner acquaintance, as I think the bearing on the inside of the cassette body needs to be inspected, as that is where the play (wobble) seems to be, that inside end of the cassette body.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

You never stated how many miles you have on the wheels. 
I think the hub bearing is shot. You ever lube it or the freehub paws?


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

duriel said:


> You never stated how many miles you have on the wheels.
> I think the hub bearing is shot. You ever lube it or the freehub paws?


The wheels are maybe 9 months old (brand new when I got them), I haven't had them serviced as yet, other than a quick check, LBS tightened the bearing adjustment a wee bit. I'd guess 3000 miles or so, if that, I had them off for a while during the winter, so I'm not exactly sure. Holding the wheel in hand, and giving it a spin, it feels silky smooth, and spins for a good while. These wheels are ceramic bearings, from Easton, they come that way.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

DBtheCyclist said:


> I have been going to this shop for years, I am pretty sure they tighten it enough. Though I don't have an automotive torque wrench (anymore, used to), I do have a box/open wrench (it's not a "small wrench") that is long enough to reach the outside edge of the wheel when I have one end on the cassette socket. I'd bet that I've got it tight enough when I tighten it down with this wrench).
> 
> Sorry, but I don't understand your comment about "skip the part about how great you are", don't know what you mean by that. If you are referring to my comments about how long / far I've ridden, I guess you are missing my point completely...trying to illustrate that this isn't the first wheelset I've ridden on, and that in all my years/miles, on many different wheelsets/hubs, I've never seen a cassette wobble like this.
> 
> I will check out what cyclintruckin said, now that he mentioned it, I believe I had to tighten the body down on one of my Reynolds once a good few years back. Forgot about that. I've also emailed Easton support, hopefully they will reply with their take on the matter.


Easton hubs from last year just get loose. Tighten them using the non-driveside spacer cap thing..whatever the hell its called. Problem solved. I think they instruct to tighten them by hand - although you may want to check the spec instructions. They come loose every couple hundred miles. I've been riding EA50s for the past 18 months and the cassette has loosened probably 3 or 4 times. Poor design. Nothing more. I believe they stopped making them.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

bahueh said:


> Easton hubs from last year just get loose. Tighten them using the non-driveside spacer cap thing..whatever the hell its called. Problem solved. I think they instruct to tighten them by hand - although you may want to check the spec instructions. They come loose every couple hundred miles. I've been riding EA50s for the past 18 months and the cassette has loosened probably 3 or 4 times. Poor design. Nothing more. I believe they stopped making them.


Not sure what you are telling me to tighten, or what could be loose, that can be remedied by an adjustment. The cassette lock ring is not loose. I am pretty sure (see my post from about an hour ago at the end of the thread) that the body, the inside nearest the spokes, is wobbling on the hub. I have tightened the two 5mm caps, on each end of the hub, rather I should say I checked them, they were tight. I took the one off (as an Easton video showed) to remove the cassette body however I didn't get the body off to look at the inside of it. I had my local shop check the bearing adjustment (a few weeks ago, it's on the non-drive side, takes a 19mm tool I think). There doesn't seem to be anything else to tighten. If I had to guess, as I couldn't get the hub apart, it would be that the bearing on the inside of the cassette body has gone bad. I think the hub has to come apart to find out more.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

cyclintruckin said:


> I had the same problem with a set of EA-50's to the point on a ride the wheel went sideways and rubbed the frame. Turned out for what ever reason the freehub body was loose, took 2 5mm allen wrenches and tightened it down no more problems. IDK if Easton is leaving them loose from the factory for some reason or what.


Checked this, but they were tight, not loose at all.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

ericm979 said:


> And fire the shop that told you that play is "normal".
> 
> A little wobble is common. But play is not normal. Did you use the right spacers? A 10sp Shimano cassette on a 10sp freehub needs a 1mm spacer. 10sp Shimano on an 11sp freehub needs a 1.8mm spacer and 1mm spacer. Sram 10sp does not use the 1mm spacer.


Took the spacer off and mounted a SRAM Red (new) cassette. Big cog side of the cassette (I am pretty sure the cassette body to the hub is where the movement is) can still be visibly wiggled with your hands.


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## cyclintruckin (Feb 10, 2012)

I will try and post a vid of how to remove/adjust/tighten an Easton freehub sometime later this evening. I am swearing you are having the same problem I had.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

cyclintruckin said:


> I will try and post a vid of how to remove/adjust/tighten an Easton freehub sometime later this evening. I am swearing you are having the same problem I had.


Not to confuse my issue with the bearing preload adjustment that this wheel has - can use a 19mm flat wrench, to adjust the wheel bearing preload, the cone on the non-drive side that sits inside the frame is adjustable, and affects play in the wheel itself (if you can grab the wheel up by say the brake, and feel it move side to side, you need to tighten this - easton site has a video for that). This isn't my issue.

I also watched a video (link is in this thread somewhere I think) that shows how to remove the cassette body on an Easton wheel. Use two 5 mm allen wrenches, one inside each end of the hub (skewer removed), take off the little cap (that you just loosened with the 5 mm wrench on the cassette body side), and the cassette body should come off. Mine would not, I couldn't remove it with my hands, and didn't want to try hitting it with anything. These 2 end caps, that take the 5 mm allen wrenches, I think they are the only way to "remove or secure the cassette body" - there is no adjustment - either these 2 caps are tight (on the axle, I believe) or they are not tight, as best as I can see on my hub or in the videos I have seen there is no adjusting the cassette body.

I think this is my hub, though my cassette body is black. This hub is the R4SL. The wheels, quite sure (if memory serves) are 9 month old EC90-SLX, 56mm carbon rims. http://www.eastoncycling.com/bike/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/R4SL_Rear_Hub_Drawing.pdf The bearing preload adjustment is made on part #1, and the 5 mm end caps (cassette body supposed to come off if you take that side off) are #2 and #8 - there is no adjusting these - they are tight or they are not.

Though my hub could be (I need to look at item #8 again, it's different on the 2) hub as well, this is the R4 (and this diagram lists a black body for shimano/sram (I can put either cassette on, and have). http://www.eastoncycling.com/bike/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/R4_Rear_Hub_Drawing-2012.pdf Very similar designs.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I think that your freehub bearings are shot. I don't think that a bent axle would cause the wobble as the axle is stationary while the wheel rotates around it.

From the diagram it looks like the freehub should pull off once you have removed the axle end cap. It may take some pulling. Sometimes rotating it (in the freewheel direction) helps. It should be a snug fit on the axle.

When you had the cassette off did you try wiggling the freehub? If it's the problem it will move on the axle.

If you can't get the freehub off, it looks like you can remove the axle through the DS of the hub after removing the end cap and adjuster. Then you'll have the freehub stuck on the axle. You can use a combination of sockets or pieces of wood to support the freehub while tapping on the end of the axle (with something soft so you don't damage it).


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

ericm979 said:


> I think that your freehub bearings are shot. I don't think that a bent axle would cause the wobble as the axle is stationary while the wheel rotates around it.
> 
> From the diagram it looks like the freehub should pull off once you have removed the axle end cap. It may take some pulling. Sometimes rotating it (in the freewheel direction) helps. It should be a snug fit on the axle.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree with you, that the freehub (cassette body) bearing(s) is the issue, at least that's what I'd guess unless disassembly reveals anything further. Yes, I can wiggle the cassette body with no cassette on it - of course the larger the cassette cogs, the easier it is to see the wiggle. I also agree with your statement about a bent axle not resulting in much visible effects - I think on "car terms", that the axle goes around - but with a bike the axle stays fixed and everything in the hub spins around it. If it was bent severely (to illustrate the point), you would see the cassette placement being crooked, but it wouldn't wobble as it went around. As soon as I, or my shop if I go there with it, gets it apart, then we'll know for sure. IMHO, bearing(s) sure shouldn't be shot though, wheel is like 9 months old, maybe 3000 miles or so on it, and rarely if ever ridden in rain or water. Figuring that whatever the problem, Easton will stand behind it and take care of it.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

No reply from Easton to my emails, emailed them both Monday and Tuesday. Will call them today. Friend I bumped into on a ride with Easton wheels last night said he had an issue in the past, and their service was very good, though I'm not seeing evidence of that so far, in the lack of response to my emails


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Remove the freehub and inspect the bearings. Then you will know what's wrong and can tell Easton.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

ericm979 said:


> Remove the freehub and inspect the bearings. Then you will know what's wrong and can tell Easton.


OK, called Easton today. Got someone who didn't seem to want to help much. Told me to disassemble hub, and push out axle (with body on it, as the body does not want to come off by merely removing the little end cap, then taking it off with hands) from the non-drive side, which I did just now. I could wiggle the axle in the body, but body would not come off axle. Spinning the axle in the body, felt gritty. I got the body set inbetween a couple blocks, tapped on the axle end that protruded out of the outside side of the body (used a hard plastic block, didn't take much of a tap), and the axle moved a ways out, but not all the way. The end is now down in the body so I can't tap it further. But still can't get it all the way out, and now it feels really rough spinning it, and can't spin it all the way around, it sticks and stops at one point, spinning it in either direction. Bearing seized on axle ? I'd say without question the inner side cassette body bearing is bad. But the axle moved a ways out of the body bearing, but why not all the way ? Video I posted up above, showing how to take body off, remove the end cap on that end, and out it comes, easy as can be. Not in my case however.

Will call Easton tomorrow about this, see what they say. Today, I asked "where do we go, once I get the cassette body and axle apart ?" - you can request a return authorization, for a warranty EVALUATION - I told him the wheel was 9 months, what's the warranty ? - 2 years MANUFACTURING DEFECTS, rider weight, riding style, roads, could contribute to failure. Well, if Easton won't stand behind their wheel, an almost $2000 msrp set of wheels, after only 9 months and maybe 3000 miles, I will be plenty hot.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Pic of the cassette body and axle, after it came out of the hub, and pic after I tapped the cassette body end of the axle, that bushing like rind around the axle, that was inside the body as it came out of the hub. Axle moved out a ways, but won't come all the way out. Here is a link to a blow up of my hub http://www.eastoncycling.com/bike/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/R4SL_Rear_Hub_Drawing.pdf


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I don't think that the bearings are seized on the axle. It's just a tight fit. If you have a socket that's the same OD as the axle you can use that to gently tap it out of the freehub.

The freehub bearings are dead for sure from your description. Really dead. Once you get the axle out try turning them by hand to find the bad one, just for curiosity.

At this point Easton should send you a new freehub. You might have to send in the old one first.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

ericm979 said:


> I don't think that the bearings are seized on the axle. It's just a tight fit. If you have a socket that's the same OD as the axle you can use that to gently tap it out of the freehub.
> 
> The freehub bearings are dead for sure from your description. Really dead. Once you get the axle out try turning them by hand to find the bad one, just for curiosity.
> 
> At this point Easton should send you a new freehub. You might have to send in the old one first.


Talked to Easton today - described what I did here, and the pics show, in last night's posts. No quibbling, stated that they will send me a new axle, and cassette body (with bearings inside). Says the cassette body bearing(s) - seems to me perhaps only the bearing on the inside side has issues - shattered and likely fuzed on the axle. The cassette body should come off easily (he stated as shown in their video (I posted a link earlier)), by hand, if everything is "good" - take off the end cap that side, and it should just slip right off. Hopefully I'll get the new parts before long. Oh yes, with the axle partway out, I can put my finger inside the outer cassette body axle bearing, and it feels smooth. Can't do that with the inside bearing, not until I get the axle out of the body.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Got the axle out of the cassette body. Supposed to come off the axle easily, however wasn't the case, put 8mm allen wrench into axle from the drive side end, and with the body on blocks, took a hammer to the allen wrench, and that punched the axle out. Old acquaintance who used to own a bike shop thinks the axle could be bent, but really hard to tell if it is or isn't. Felt the 2 bearings, rotated them, in the body. Outside body feels smooth as silk, inside bearing rough as gravel - so whether or not the axle is bent, can't really tell - but the inside cassette body bearing is definitely a problem. 2 other bearings in the hub feel silky smooth. Will reassemble as soon as new parts from Easton arrive.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

DBtheCyclist said:


> Felt the 2 bearings, rotated them, in the body. Outside body feels smooth as silk, inside bearing rough as gravel - so whether or not the axle is bent, can't really tell - but the inside cassette body bearing is definitely a problem.


Just a general comment: you have to keep in mind that the freehub bearings (the two unidentified bearings in the drawing you linked) do not spin within themselves when you pedal with any kind of force. During that kind of pedaling, the pawls lock the freehub body to the hub and those bearings are inactive. It's entirely possible that the wobble you and others observed occurred only when the pawls were disengaged during soft-pedaling or coasting, allowing the freehub to turn in relation to the hub. Point being here: not that big a deal, and that may have been what the shop meant by "normal behavior."

What speaks against this is the fact that you can move the largest cog or the freehub body by hand. Without feeling / seeing that myself, I don't know what to make of that. So there is an issue, no doubt.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

wim said:


> Just a general comment: you have to keep in mind that the freehub bearings (the two unidentified bearings in the drawing you linked) do not spin within themselves when you pedal with any kind of force. During that kind of pedaling, the pawls lock the freehub body to the hub and those bearings are inactive. It's entirely possible that the wobble you and others observed occurred only when the pawls were disengaged during soft-pedaling or coasting, allowing the freehub to turn in relation to the hub. Point being here: not that big a deal, and that may have been what the shop meant by "normal behavior."
> 
> What speaks against this is the fact that you can move the largest cog or the freehub body by hand. Without feeling / seeing that myself, I don't know what to make of that. So there is an issue, no doubt.


OK, I appreciate your input wim, however your understanding of both my situation, and how the freehub works, is incorrect. First, the cassette wobble was under load with the chain on the larger few cogs, riding mates behind me, and I (if looking down at it) could see it easily, the wobble was very pronounced; soft pedaling, or coasting, no wobble. Secondly, you have it backwards about when the bearings in the cassette body are rotating - the axle on bicycle hubs is the opposite of say a car axle, which rotates when the car is moving - the bicycle axle never moves. That said, the 2 bearings in the hub, if the bike is moving in any way, they are rotating. The 4 bearings in that blow up of the hub, 2 in the hub, 2 in the cassette body, they all are rotating around the axle when you are pedaling, as the hub is moving around the axle, and the cassette body is also moving around the axle. When you are coasting, then the cassette body stops moving in relation to the axle, so the bearings in the cassette body are not spinning, they are fixed, as neither the axle or the body is moving, they are fixed in relation to each other; but the hub is spinning in relation to the cassette body, hence the buzzing we hear from the pawls (on most hubs make a buzzing sound) when coasting, because the cassette body is not moving, however in relation to the hub it is. And the wobble is a big deal, as though shifting was not really affected,there where times where I believe the chain jumped, or maybe jumped gears, knowing what I know now, I'm betting that these events were occurring when the load on the chain/cogs/hub-assembly was high, and the cassette wobble was at it's most extreme. Easton said there should be no wobble of the cassette for any reason, any wobble is "not normal", and indicates some type of problem.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Perhaps my "do not spin within themselves" wasn't clear. When you pedal forward, a freehub bearing (as opposed to a hub bearing) is inactive in that the inner race does not rotate in relation to the outer race. It is stationary in relation to the hub body and to the hub, which are locked together and move as one unit. They better, or you're not going anywhere.

I was aware of the fact that the axle never rotates or moves, but it can't hurt to be reminded of that every so often.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

wim said:


> Perhaps my "do not spin within themselves" wasn't clear. When you pedal forward, a freehub bearing (as opposed to a hub bearing) is inactive in that the inner race does not rotate in relation to the outer race. It is stationary in relation to the hub body and to the hub, which are locked together and move as one unit. They better, or you're not going anywhere.
> 
> I was aware of the fact that the axle never rotates or moves, but it can't hurt to be reminded of that every so often.


OK, I'm getting confused now  I will say that I have never tore into a hub before, so seeing the inner workings in hand is new to me. However, I don't see how, if I am pedaling, the axle is fixed, and is positioned through the bearings in the cassette body, and the cassette body is spinning, in relation to the axle - how can the bearings' inner and outer races not be spinning in relation to each other ? The bearings are pressed into the cassette body, so the outer race is fixed in relation to the cassette body. The inner race, it sets on the axle - I am sure the inner race can't be fixed in relation to the outer race (the point of a bearing after all is to have the inner and outer races moving separate from each other, using the balls to dissipate friction and heat), so if the axle is fixed, and the cassette body, when pedaling is moving around the axle, how can the 2 races not be moving in relation to each other ? Yes the cassette body is stationary in relation to the hub body when pedaling, however those 2 items aren't what these bearings sit between - they sit between the axle and the cassette body. If coasting, then I see how this is possible, the axle isn't moving, the cassette body isn't moving, hence the bearings aren't either. But when pedaling, I don't see that there would be any way the races on the cassette-body-to-axle bearings' races couldn't be moving in relation to each other - if they weren't, then the inner race would be sliding on the axle as it spins around it, and it would heat things up, causing all kinds of problems.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

I dunno, perhaps I'm having a problem with words today. It happens. Or we're actually saying the same thing and can't see it, that happens too. My (unsaid) point was that freehub bearings only work as friction-reduction ("spinning") bearings when you coast or soft-pedal. Someone else will have to clarify this.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

wim said:


> When you pedal forward, a freehub bearing (as opposed to a hub bearing) is inactive in that the inner race does not rotate in relation to the outer race. It is stationary in relation to the hub body and to the hub,


That's true of a few hubs. Shimano are the only ones I know of. For most hubs the freehub's bearings ride on the axle not the hub. So the freehub bearings are turning (inner stationary, outer race turning) when you're pedalling. They're stationary when you're coasting.

Look at the diagrams linked earlier in the thread.

It's less complicated to make hubs this way, and lighter. Also there's plenty of room for decent bearings and a large diameter axle. Cost is some extra friction (not much with good bearings in good condition and correct preload).


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

ericm979 said:


> That's true of a few hubs. Shimano are the only ones I know of.


Thanks, you explained it well and it's now clear that my confusion based on sheer ignorance. Will tear into some non-Chimpano freehubs soon to update myself.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

OK, got the new parts, and stopped in at my LBS and got some Park grease. But didn't really think about asking them where all to put it - all over the axle, body (inside of course), all over the pawls (there was plenty when I took it apart). Assembling this is not hard at all, but I've never had a hub apart before, so not really sure how much grease to use and where to put it. Can anyone more experienced than me help me out ?

Thanks


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

The axle and body don't need grease. That'll just make a mess, it won't lubricate anything. Your hub has sealed bearings that already contain all the grease they need.

The only contact point that needs grease is the freehub. Don't use thick or sticky grease there, it can make the pawls stick instead of dropping into the ratchet teeth. If they don't engage the pawls the freehub can slip and you will go on your ear. I use Krytox on my good wheels or a light moly grease on the training wheels. Don't glop it on, it only needs a light coat. If there's enough on there already just leave it.

The seal on the freehub where it's against the hub also needs a little grease. If the axle end caps have a seal on them that rides on something that turns (like the freehub) I put a little grease on that too.

On some hubs the end caps can unscrew themselves from the axle. It might be a good idea to use loctite (#242 blue medium strength) on them now rather than waiting for it to happen on a ride. Clean the threads inside and out first.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

ericm979 said:


> The axle and body don't need grease. That'll just make a mess, it won't lubricate anything. Your hub has sealed bearings that already contain all the grease they need.
> 
> The only contact point that needs grease is the freehub. Don't use thick or sticky grease there, it can make the pawls stick instead of dropping into the ratchet teeth. If they don't engage the pawls the freehub can slip and you will go on your ear. I use Krytox on my good wheels or a light moly grease on the training wheels. Don't glop it on, it only needs a light coat. If there's enough on there already just leave it.
> 
> ...


There is absolutely no grease on the new axle or cassette body, so based on what you said I need to grease the body around the pawls. Shop had Park Polylube 1000 grease, that's what I have - will that work ? 

The end caps, I could hardly get them off, but I might use the loctite anyway. Axle is new so no cleaning needed there.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

If it's a steel axle, then I would put a thin layer of grease on it to prevent rust.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Mr Evil said:


> If it's a steel axle, then I would put a thin layer of grease on it to prevent rust.


It's aluminum.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

The new parts.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Unless the Park grease is sticky like automotive wheel bearing grease its probably ok.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

All back together. No play whatsoever in the cassette, it doesn't wobble at all. Test ride coming in a couple hours.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Test ride went fine. All is right with the world once again


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

DBtheCyclist said:


> All is right with the world once again


Easy for you to say. It's been about a week now and I'm still finding bits of egg on my face.


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

wim said:


> Easy for you to say. It's been about a week now and I'm still finding bits of egg on my face.


No worries wim, I didn't realize that there were different hub designs either - this is the first hub, even though I've been riding 25 years and I do perform SOME of my own maintenance, that I've ever taken apart. I'm just remembering what you said, looking at the parts in hand once I got it all apart, and thinking "no way that's right, all these 4 bearings have to be spinning when the pedals are going around and the bike's moving down the road". I'm not anywhere near the most experienced / capable bike mechanic around, however I can usually look at something mechanical, and understand how it all works


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

Tlaloc said:


> If the casette is installed correctly and your casette is still wobbling you have to look for other causes like loose or worn out wheel bearings, or more likely, the bearing or bushing in your free hub.


I think he could also have a bent axle and it just looks like the cassette is wobbling


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## DBtheCyclist (Oct 4, 2004)

Fai Mao said:


> I think he could also have a bent axle and it just looks like the cassette is wobbling


Fai, nope, a "wobble" wouldn't be what you would see with a bent axle. Remember, the axle does NOT rotate, so if the axle was bent the cassette wouldn't wobble, rather it wouldn't sit in alignment like it does when all is good. But it would still spin without a wobble. Haven't read the rest of this thread ? The problem was a shot cassette body bearing - a bearing between the axle and the cassette body, on the inside, big cog end of the cassette body. All repaired, all back together, all is good once again


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