# Anyone collect vintage bikes as investments?



## team_sheepshead (Jan 17, 2003)

Does anyone collect vintage bikes as investments? Sure, you love the hobby, but you also have an eye toward what these things are worth. Maybe you scour flea markets, buy vintage bikes, rejuvenate them and sell them. Or maybe you buy completely cherry, refurbished bikes and *carefully* ride them as they appreciate in value.

I am working on an article for Worth magazine (www.worth.com) on the high-end vintage bike market and am looking for people who collect rare vintage rides as investments or showpieces. I'm searching for people who want the best of the best and are willing to pay for it.

If you are interested, please send me a personal message. Who knows? The value of your collection might go up if it is mentioned in the mag.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Tom Ligon (Jul 1, 2003)

*I had to fight off those guys for my Paramount ...*

... I adore older bikes, but want to ride them instead of simply showing them. For that reason, I prefer a bike that is NOT in mint condition. Missing decals, not original paint, etc, is fine with me and then I can refinish it and equip it as I see fit.

Alas, when the perfect roadbike frame for me showed up on e-bay, it had perfect chrome and decals, and nearly perfect paint, and a rare frame feature that got some collectors excited. I got in a bidding war that took the price up considerably beyond what I'd expected to pay.

I don't care ... its mine now. And I ride it often.


----------



## rwbadley (Apr 13, 2002)

Kinda sorta

I like all bikes. My shed will attest to that. Of the bikes that I have paid any real money for, I gravitate towards the ones that will, if not appreciate, at least hold their value. Buying stuff in the hopes it will appreciate is somewhat risky. Buy what you know and love and maybe you'll get lucky.


----------



## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

I am of the opinion that if you are buying bikes as an investment, then you have no idea what your money is worth to begin with. I love bikes! I love rare retro bikes! I have a huge passion for mid-80's Campy C-Record Italian bikes, and have a couple bikes that could be called collectable, but as investments, they are terrible. I am not saying that collecting bikes is worthless, nor am I saying that you can not make money on older bikes, but from an investment standpoint, it's stupid. It's like collecting baseball cards. You don't do it for the money, you do it because you love it. From an investment standpoint, lets look at a reasonable scenario... I have a Super Record equipped Eddy Merckx. It's in very good condition with very little separating it from mint or NOS condition. It has Campy Colbaltos on it, Ti spindle BB and pedals, Regina SL hollow pin chain... all the things that make it collectable... but here's the thing, I paid about $1000 for it 3 years ago.... I bet in 20 years I could get maybe $3000 for it (in today's economic numbers, so ignoring inflation...) but lets say I took that same 1 grand and put it in a very simple bank account at 4% compounded monthly... in 23 years I would have $2500. Invest in something that gets 6.5% interest and after that same time you have over $4400. So the reality is that collecting bikes is something you do for fun. It's a passion for most who do it. But from a business sense, as an investment, it's a really bad way to try to make money. 

But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy collecting bikes! And I try to often justify it to myself by telling myself it's an investment, but the reality is that I do it because I love bikes. A better way to make money on bikes is to find good deals on semi-valuable bikes on either places like eBay or flea markets or classifieds, and stripping them and parting them out. You would make more and not have to sit on the bike for years to see your return. 

Russ


----------



## mtnwing (Aug 30, 2004)

russw19 said:


> I am of the opinion that if you are buying bikes as an investment, then you have no idea what your money is worth to begin with. I love bikes! I love rare retro bikes! I have a huge passion for mid-80's Campy C-Record Italian bikes, and have a couple bikes that could be called collectable, but as investments, they are terrible. I am not saying that collecting bikes is worthless, nor am I saying that you can not make money on older bikes, but from an investment standpoint, it's stupid. It's like collecting baseball cards. You don't do it for the money, you do it because you love it. From an investment standpoint, lets look at a reasonable scenario... I have a Super Record equipped Eddy Merckx. It's in very good condition with very little separating it from mint or NOS condition. It has Campy Colbaltos on it, Ti spindle BB and pedals, Regina SL hollow pin chain... all the things that make it collectable... but here's the thing, I paid about $1000 for it 3 years ago.... I bet in 20 years I could get maybe $3000 for it (in today's economic numbers, so ignoring inflation...) but lets say I took that same 1 grand and put it in a very simple bank account at 4% compounded monthly... in 23 years I would have $2500. Invest in something that gets 6.5% interest and after that same time you have over $4400. So the reality is that collecting bikes is something you do for fun. It's a passion for most who do it. But from a business sense, as an investment, it's a really bad way to try to make money.
> 
> But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy collecting bikes! And I try to often justify it to myself by telling myself it's an investment, but the reality is that I do it because I love bikes. A better way to make money on bikes is to find good deals on semi-valuable bikes on either places like eBay or flea markets or classifieds, and stripping them and parting them out. You would make more and not have to sit on the bike for years to see your return.
> 
> Russ


What about items like Lance's actual TDF race bike? Greg Lemond or how about Eddy Merckxx personal steed? Now you can't tell me Ty Cobb's bat is loosing value and my guess is Lance's old bike will rise in value faster than your interest bearing checking account . . could be wrong but I think there are some bikes out there with the rare distinction to be "good investments". Ever check the prices on a Bowden Spacelander . . . they've gone at auction for 15K or more.

-mtnwing
www.roadbikes.net


----------



## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

mtnwing said:


> What about items like Lance's actual TDF race bike? Greg Lemond or how about Eddy Merckxx personal steed? Now you can't tell me Ty Cobb's bat is loosing value and my guess is Lance's old bike will rise in value faster than your interest bearing checking account . . could be wrong but I think there are some bikes out there with the rare distinction to be "good investments". Ever check the prices on a Bowden Spacelander . . . they've gone at auction for 15K or more.
> 
> -mtnwing
> www.roadbikes.net


OK.. but how are you going to get hold of Lance's race day bike? For the money you would pay, you would be better to invest in areas that net better interest. The original question was collection of vintage bikes... not of famous people's bikes. That is why I used an example of collecting baseball cards... not collecting Barry Bond's 700th home run hitting bat or ball. If you are going to do that, you should invest in real estate or vintage Ferraris. Also, what happens if 3 years from now it turns up that Lance was doped? How much do you think his bike will be worth? Maybe more because of the infamy factor... but that's still a different point. Also, as for your Bowen Spacelander idea... it's a bike from 1960. $100 invested today at 10% interest would yeild $15000 in 45 years. If that's the kind of growth you are expecting, you should have bought a Ferrari 250 Daytona. If you did, in 1962 it would have cost you $6857... one sold at auction about 3 years ago for 21 million. It was the 2nd most expensive car ever sold at auction.

Now, moving back into reality... you most likely won't get your hands on bikes that have the history of Lance's Tour winning bike. If you do, you will pay a huge price for it up front and probably sell it for a huge amount too... but if you invested that same amount elsewhere you would likely make more. So back to my point... investing in vintage bikes is a passion for most who do it, but not a good way to make money. Yeah, there are exceptions, but I said that already. There are bikes that you may make money on, and collecting bikes is not worthless, but then the bottom could always fall out from under the market too. Look at Beenie Baby sales 5 or 6 years ago. You could buy a $6 toy and then turn around and sell it on eBay for 6 grand the next day... but then one day the bottom fell out and your $6K bean bag toy was now back to being worth 6 bucks. So sure, you can make money doing it, but from an investment standpoint, it's a bad idea. 

Now, again, that all said, I love to collect bikes, just like many other cycling enthusiasts here... but I like money too... so I don't put all my money into vintage bikes because I know it won't ever really net me much. I do it because I love bikes and they make me happy. But I am not under any delusions that I will make a bunch of money doing it. In fact, in most cases (not all, but the very vast majority) I could do better with smart banking or low risk stocks and bonds. But having a piece of paper that says I hold stock in some random company doesn't bring me anywhere near the pleasure of pulling a nice Super Record Merckx or C-Record Pinarello off my wall and giving it a nice polish. 

But if you want to invest your money in vintage bikes... far be it from me to stop you. 

Russ


----------



## mtnwing (Aug 30, 2004)

*cycling: dollars and sense*



russw19 said:


> OK.. but how are you going to get hold of Lance's race day bike? For the money you would pay, you would be better to invest in areas that net better interest. The original question was collection of vintage bikes... not of famous people's bikes. That is why I used an example of collecting baseball cards... not collecting Barry Bond's 700th home run hitting bat or ball. If you are going to do that, you should invest in real estate or vintage Ferraris. Also, what happens if 3 years from now it turns up that Lance was doped? How much do you think his bike will be worth? Maybe more because of the infamy factor... but that's still a different point. Also, as for your Bowen Spacelander idea... it's a bike from 1960. $100 invested today at 10% interest would yeild $15000 in 45 years. If that's the kind of growth you are expecting, you should have bought a Ferrari 250 Daytona. If you did, in 1962 it would have cost you $6857... one sold at auction about 3 years ago for 21 million. It was the 2nd most expensive car ever sold at auction.
> 
> Now, moving back into reality... you most likely won't get your hands on bikes that have the history of Lance's Tour winning bike. If you do, you will pay a huge price for it up front and probably sell it for a huge amount too... but if you invested that same amount elsewhere you would likely make more. So back to my point... investing in vintage bikes is a passion for most who do it, but not a good way to make money. Yeah, there are exceptions, but I said that already. There are bikes that you may make money on, and collecting bikes is not worthless, but then the bottom could always fall out from under the market too. Look at Beenie Baby sales 5 or 6 years ago. You could buy a $6 toy and then turn around and sell it on eBay for 6 grand the next day... but then one day the bottom fell out and your $6K bean bag toy was now back to being worth 6 bucks. So sure, you can make money doing it, but from an investment standpoint, it's a bad idea.
> 
> ...


In the spirit of good debate, I'll respond to a few of your points, though I do think much of your counter discussion above is reasonably accurate and would hold true for the average investor. 

Russ - "how you going to get a hold of Lance's race day bike . . . " 

mtnwing - "I already own two of them and have passed on three others in the last five years . . . if you truly want to collect this stuff and know how and where to look, it's out there for the taking. There is also another individual on this board that owns two so I'm not the only freak in the collector peleton. Welcome to my reality."

Russ - Ferrari example $6857 to $21 Mil . . .

mtnwing - yes but your talking about the day it first rolled out of the factory, and this isn't a fair collecting comparison. Not many or any started "collecting these Ferrari's" on day one. Also plenty of cars you could have collected 45 years ago that are worth nothing today. Also worth noting that 10% investment opportunities aren't as easy to come by . . and you can't get into premium real`estate or highend car collecting with 1-5K investments. You can with bikes though. Again I'm not sure these are really apples to apples comparisons.

It's hard to accurately predict whether or not "sports collectables" will net more or less than the average investment over time but via historical trending thus far they've beaten a lot of investments. Now the market for cycling as a "niche within sports collecting" is a bit grayer, but I still think there are surely some diamonds in the rough, as in any investment market or micromarket. 

It all comes down to what you buy, what you pay/negotiate for it, and whether or not it's a growth opportunity plus timing. I'm going to wagger that Armstrong, Lemond, Merckxx, Hinault, Fignon, and some of the storied mtb greats like Tomac, Furtado, classic Yeti bikes, Cunningham's, old Tom Ritchey bikes, etc will increase in value well over time due to the fame and scarcity. Investments also grow at different rates and you've got to know when to hold and when to sell items based partly on timing. 

I will agree that for the average person, cycling investments would probably be disasterous. I'll also say that some of my collection is pretty worthless, but I knew that getting into these purchases and making money wasn't the goal. On the other hand, this is just like any other "collection" of things.

Perhaps the real question is should "collection" and "investment" be used in the same discussion as implied synonyms. Collections may increase in value, but often that's not the goal of a given collector. There is a guy I ran across on the internet that is collecting dirt samples from around the world. Not sure that collection is increasing value anytime soon. Investing on the other hand is central to monetary growth over time. 

If you want to grow money via bike purchases as a pure investment (remove the word collection), your best bet is to buy past TDF winners bikes or very rare bikes from storied custom builders as cheap as you can and then hold them until the next cycle when we have a new American champion or cycling resurgence. For example a Lemond bike would sell well on ebay during the month of July the last six years. Ten years from now Tyler Hamilton & Lance's bikes will sell well in July if we have another hot American cyclist winning the Tour de France. Bikes like old Charlie Cunningham mountainbikes or old Gary Fisher and Tom Ritcheys are selling on ebay for as much or more than their original cost. Why . . . because of scarcity and timing. 

I agree with a lot of your thinking as generally speaking cycling is a pretty small pond to be fishing for good investments, but I still think there are some diamonds out there to be had. . . And the chance of me hitting it big on a 2-5K property or car investment in 2004 are pretty slim. Lance's or Lemond's old race bike on the other hand could work out nicely for a few K over time and probably beat my checking account interest.

-mtnwing


----------



## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

OK..... I can buy into all of that. Good points. I still hold to the idea though that collecting bikes is done for reasons of passion rather than economics. Let me ask you this, do you have the bikes that you have because you are a cyclist or an investor? That was my arguement to begin with. Usually (and I would underline that if I knew how to do it) the people who collect bikes do not do so out of any illusions of making money. i.e. they are collecting, not investing. So as I said earlier, it's a bad investment... but I sure do love to do it. So I think we are actually on the same page with that thought.

By the way, I am sure I am not the only one here who would love to see pics of your collection of Lance's bikes if you have some.

Russ


----------



## mtnwing (Aug 30, 2004)

russw19 said:


> OK..... I can buy into all of that. Good points. I still hold to the idea though that collecting bikes is done for reasons of passion rather than economics. Let me ask you this, do you have the bikes that you have because you are a cyclist or an investor? That was my arguement to begin with. Usually (and I would underline that if I knew how to do it) the people who collect bikes do not do so out of any illusions of making money. i.e. they are collecting, not investing. So as I said earlier, it's a bad investment... but I sure do love to do it. So I think we are actually on the same page with that thought.
> 
> By the way, I am sure I am not the only one here who would love to see pics of your collection of Lance's bikes if you have some.
> 
> Russ


Same page here. I totally agree most (including me) aren't really "investing" in bikes as the primary focus, but the collections often turn into investments by accident . . . . how do you define investment? willfully planned growth or negligent/unplanned spending that grows? and what if a purchase accidentally becomes a growth opportunty - is that then defined as an investment or collectors luck? I'm somewhere inbetween.

I've found personally, that IF MY WIFE get's upset with the purchase value . . . it qualifies as a investment!!! if she doesn't blink, then it's "just collecting".

www.carbonbicycles.com for pictures of some of the "investments" . . . need to retake them though as the pics are a bit blurry. My Lemond Team Z is posted on the main picture thread of this board.

-mtnwing
www.roadbikes.net


----------



## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

Is that Trimble mountain bike yours? The Inverse 4? The shop I work at has two Trimble mountain bikes hanging from the ceiling. One looks like the Inverse 4 you posted and the other is a trials bike with no seat tube mast. I will take a couple pictues of them for you if you are interested. The normal (relative term here) looking one has a sweet white paint job with purple flames. Good looking bike... I want to convince the owner of the shop to pull it down and build it up to sport around town on.

Russ


----------



## mtnwing (Aug 30, 2004)

russw19 said:


> Is that Trimble mountain bike yours? The Inverse 4? The shop I work at has two Trimble mountain bikes hanging from the ceiling. One looks like the Inverse 4 you posted and the other is a trials bike with no seat tube mast. I will take a couple pictues of them for you if you are interested. The normal (relative term here) looking one has a sweet white paint job with purple flames. Good looking bike... I want to convince the owner of the shop to pull it down and build it up to sport around town on.
> 
> Russ


Yes that's mine. I've got a buddy with an even nicer Trimble though . . . I'll have to get some pics of it one of these days. 

Is the trials version in your shop forsale? I'd love to own one of those! Speaking of "building up the trimble". I've got a buddy that's machined "disc brake" adaptors so you can run modern discs on these old trimbles..

Any chance you'll be out at Interbike? I'll be working the Moonheadmachine.com booth. A buddy of mine and former Trek engineer is launching this new company with some super sweet highend parts. 

Love to see a picture of that one with the flames too. Sounds like a neat paint schema.

-mtnwing


----------



## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

mtnwing said:


> Yes that's mine. I've got a buddy with an even nicer Trimble though . . . I'll have to get some pics of it one of these days.
> 
> Is the trials version in your shop forsale? I'd love to own one of those! Speaking of "building up the trimble". I've got a buddy that's machined "disc brake" adaptors so you can run modern discs on these old trimbles..
> 
> ...


I'm not going to Interbike.. I have tests in 3 of the 4 classes I am taking in school that week. So I really need to be here. My boss is going. I will tell him to stop by and introduce himself if he gets a chance. Both the Trimbles are his so if he does stop by I will tell him to talk to you about them himself. His name is Ted and he owns Spin Cycle in Gainesville, Florida. 

I am actually on my way up to the shop in about an hour to pack and ship a frame of mine, so I will take my camera with me to get some pics of those frames. I don't know how easy it will be to pull them down from the ceiling, as we have a warehouse type building with 25 foot ceilings... so if I can pull them down to take pics I will....

Talk to you later,
Russ


----------



## colker1 (Jan 2, 2003)

mtnwing said:


> Yes that's mine. I've got a buddy with an even nicer Trimble though . . . I'll have to get some pics of it one of these days.
> 
> Is the trials version in your shop forsale? I'd love to own one of those! Speaking of "building up the trimble". I've got a buddy that's machined "disc brake" adaptors so you can run modern discs on these old trimbles..
> 
> ...


hmmm... tell me about moonhead. superpetis is building stuff? what? bikes?? parts? cool..


----------



## eddie m (Jul 6, 2002)

Collecting bikes as an investment is a mistake. Look at the market in other "collectibles," like old cars or baseball cards. Generally, the market does real well for a while and levels off. In cars, the market is always up for cars that are 35 years old, and weak for cars much older than that. Fifty year old guys buy the cars they wanted when they were 15, the market gets hot and then fades away as those guys get older. That's what happened with Model T's and that's what's going to happen to muscle cars in a few years. 
The bike market is the same way. The priciest "collectible" bikes are Peugeot PX10's. They weren't the best bikes when they were new, but now they get better prices than really nice Italian bikes. Peugeots were the most common good bikes, and a lot of us wanted one but couldn't afford it then. Now that we have money, we still want what we wanted back in the day. In 10 or 20 years, no one alive will remember what the big deal about PX10's was, and the price will plummet.
Actually, you can make money in a market like that if your timing is good. Maybe I'll ask my son what kind of car he wanted when he was 15.


----------



## mtnwing (Aug 30, 2004)

*moonheadmachine*



colker1 said:


> hmmm... tell me about moonhead. superpetis is building stuff? what? bikes?? parts? cool..


lots o' very very very drool coool stuff. mum's the word on details until interbike though. Guaranteed to please for those who stop by the booth though! Website is in the works too with some more info that will go up just before the show.

-mtnwing


----------

