# So my kickr died this week.



## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

It has been a rock solid unit, but after a failed spindown where it read 4090 ticks. It has become inoperable. Luckily it is still under warranty.

And performance bike allows it to be exchanged in stores.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

yeah it happens.. I was an early adopter and my first one died in 3 weeks. Sent back to Wahoo no issues and got another,shipping was taken care of both ways by wahoo. The current one is going strong, I wanna say it's 1.5 years old or more.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

pittcanna said:


> It has been a rock solid unit, but after a failed spindown where it read 4090 ticks. It has become inoperable. Luckily it is still under warranty.
> 
> And performance bike allows it to be exchanged in stores.


How long is the warranty on these?


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

DaveG said:


> How long is the warranty on these?


One year, but if you buy at performance then its 100% gaurantee if its a year older then you can still exchange just not return.

At some point this weekend i am going to performance, to just exchange.

I think just something happened with the circuit board.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

Well that sucks. At least it's being taken care within the warranty period.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I have a friend who's died this past weekend.

Seems like they used some sketchy parts.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> I have a friend who's died this past weekend.
> 
> Seems like they used some sketchy parts.


it's low grade Chinese electronics. High grade Japanese electronics would last decades. But everything has a price eh. And as it turns out, most consumer electronics have exactly a 1 yr warranty. I'd say there is a strong correlation of the 1yr warranty and Chinese electronics going out shortly after that. Of course this is not to say every piece of chinese electronic will go out.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Come to think of it... it was just over a year ago that she bought it I think... I'll have to ask about that.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> But everything has a price eh.


Yea... $1200.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> it's low grade Chinese electronics. High grade Japanese electronics would last decades. But everything has a price eh. And as it turns out, most consumer electronics have exactly a 1 yr warranty. I'd say there is a strong correlation of the 1yr warranty and Chinese electronics going out shortly after that. Of course this is not to say every piece of chinese electronic will go out.


It has less to do with Chinese manufacturing quality, and more to do with the vendor/designers requirements. Almost all of your high end electronics are made in China as well, and those last for years. Basically, an OEM will build to spec and cost. The spec and cost is up to the brand contracting the OEM.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Some of the material used in pcb mfg are pretty nasty.. I know the solder nowadays is crap compared to what the could use.. But environmental stuff has to be considered


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

So after talking with wahoo, they said it is the optical sensor cap. I supplied my serial number to them they looked at my spin down files, as obtained throurgh wahoo fitness app.

There sending me a replacement part on monday.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Mine has been going strong for over a year now. 


I also frequent an indoor cycling studio that has 12 of them. They've never had a warranty issue with any of them in two years. They get used 3 times a day, every day.

At this point in the KICKR lifecycle I'd say that most of the manufacturing and parts QA issues have been worked out.

There is one minor issue that could cause a problem for some bikes. In some outlier cases, the rear derailleur can hit up against the protective housing and prevent the chain from going up onto the biggest rear cog.

I had this problem on my Aluminum GF-02 trainer bike. When I asked Wahoo about it, they told me they are working on a modified version of that housing (slightly different shape) that they will ship free to anyone who requests it. 

It's a gear I never use on the trainer, so I had the thing almost six months before I even knew it was an issue. I took off the housing and used a dremel to remove a small section of that housing, and it's all fine now.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

pittcanna said:


> So after talking with wahoo, they said it is the optical sensor cap. I supplied my serial number to them they looked at my spin down files, as obtained throurgh wahoo fitness app.
> 
> There sending me a replacement part on monday.


Yeah... That what they thought mine was too originally.. It's pretty easy to install. My issue turned out to be deeper in the flywheel assembly. At the time they have me special iPhone app to get into the nitty gritty setup of the kicker. I could pretty much adjust anything I wanted. 

I still have the 2000w data on my strava power graph.. That stuff hurt .. All 5 rpms of it


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

You are doing it again,Pitt. It is covered by warranty, you say you can exchange it at performance. So what do you do, opt for swapping parts. I hope it is an easy swap and that it works for you.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

bmach said:


> You are doing it again,Pitt. It is covered by warranty, you say you can exchange it at performance. So what do you do, opt for swapping parts. I hope it is an easy swap and that it works for you.


trying out the swap seems easier that hauling the thing over to Performance. If the new part doesn't work I think the exchange option still exists


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I've done the sensor swap.. I couple screws and a power supply hookup.. Minutes if that. It's worth a shot


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> it's low grade Chinese electronics. High grade Japanese electronics would last decades.


"Low grade Chinese electronics"? "High grade Japanese electronics"? Silly Internet legends live on...

Aside from high-grade stuff like Intel CPUs, all electronics is made in Taiwan.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

AndreyT said:


> "Low grade Chinese electronics"? "High grade Japanese electronics"? Silly Internet legends live on...
> 
> Aside from high-grade stuff like Intel CPUs, all electronics is made in Taiwan.


What??? I am not sure what your definition of electronics is, but they are produced all over the world. They are making them right here at my company in the US


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## Chain (Dec 28, 2006)

tlg said:


> Yea... $1200.


But have you actually tried one?


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Chain said:


> But have you actually tried one?


I'm not who you were replying to, but have to wonder a bit too.

Is it that much better than a other electronically controlled trainers to justify the price?
(See some other, more affordable options below)

Tacx Vortex Smart (around $500)
Computrainer (used ones for around $600-700)
CycleOps Powersync ($900)
Wahoo Kicker Snap (now reduced to $700 regular price)

A very notable difference is that those I listed are all "wheel-on" trainers. But they all have well reviewed electronically controlled resistance units.

Is the Kicker that much better for the direct drive and resistance unit to justify nearly double the price when compared to some of my examples? (Honest question, not trolling)

I've read plenty or reviews on all of them, but it's hard to know unless you had a chance to do the comparison directly sometimes.

*edit: I just received my CycleOps PowerBeam Pro and will be using it the first time this weekend. It will be my first experience with a controlled trainer. I will be using it with TrainerRoad and am excited to experience how it feels in slope and ERG modes.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Chader09 said:


> I'm not who you were replying to, but have to wonder a bit too.
> 
> Is it that much better than a other electronically controlled trainers to justify the price?
> (See some other, more affordable options below)
> ...


The kickr has built in power meter. The others don't. So if you don't have a PM that's a big extra cost.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

tlg said:


> The kickr has built in power meter. The others don't. So if you don't have a PM that's a big extra cost.


I know for a fact that the CycleOps PowerSync and PowerBeam Pro include the PowerTap power meter.

The very first bullet point on their main trainer page, Trainers & Rollers - CycleOps:


> PowerTap equipped technology gives accurate power readings with +/- 5% accuracy.



The Snap is using a similar resistance unit (as the regular KICKR), but it is smaller and driven between the tire/roller rather than the cassette/belt/pulley design, so it seems reasonable to assume a power meter in it too. I haven't looked that close at the Vortex or Computrainer to know what they offer.

It seems like there must be some form of power measurement for all of them based on how they are used. Each one can function in ERG mode that probably requires some power measurement to close the loop and make the necessary adjustments to hold the desired wattage setting.

None of them list a separate power meter as a requirement to function.

*edited for clarity


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Ppl want feel too.. Kickr is very good in that respect


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

spdntrxi said:


> Ppl want feel too.. Kickr is very good in that respect


Right, I know that it's good... but is it $300-600 better than the others?

What seems to make the biggest difference in road feel is the flywheel. The one on the KICKR is large and it spins at a decent rpm from the belt gearing. But the other trainers use good flywheels that spin fast from tire/roller ratio.

I've never seen a numeric comparison, just general comments. The one trainer I've seen consistent reviews reporting best road feel is the Lemond. But it's just as expensive as a KICKR, has no electronic control, and is as loud aS a jet.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Chader09 said:


> Right, I know that it's good... but is it $300-600 better than the others?
> 
> What seems to make the biggest difference in road feel is the flywheel. The one on the KICKR is large and it spins at a decent rpm from the belt gearing. But the other trainers use good flywheels that spin fast from tire/roller ratio.
> 
> I've never seen a numeric comparison, just general comments. The one trainer I've seen consistent reviews reporting best road feel is the Lemond. But it's just as expensive as a KICKR, has no electronic control, and is as loud aS a jet.


worth is subjective ... for me the high quality feel is worth the cost. I can't stand trainers for very long, so I'm going to use one I like.

and your are correct about the Lemond...very nice feel, but yes loud.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

Well, performance bike exchanged it out for me this weekend. That is a plus for performance bike, a lifetime warranty for it.

When the kickr is working it is super effective and makes trainer time much more passable.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

I have the Kickr- its worth it if you use Zwift.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

pittcanna said:


> Well, performance bike exchanged it out for me this weekend. That is a plus for performance bike, a lifetime warranty for it.
> 
> When the kickr is working it is super effective and makes trainer time much more passable.


Seriously... Lifetime.. ? 

I'm not a fine print reader so I never checked. I got mine from performance as well


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

spdntrxi said:


> Seriously... Lifetime.. ?
> 
> I'm not a fine print reader so I never checked. I got mine from performance as well


Performance Bicycle Lifetime Guarantee | 
Buy With Confidence

We stand behind every product we sell. If an item does not meet your expectations, simply return it. We guarantee your money back for a full year. After one year, we'll provide an exchange, repair, or store credit to ensure you have the product that meets your needs. If you've lost your receipt, we'll provide a store credit at our current price.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

spdntrxi said:


> Seriously... Lifetime.. ?
> 
> I'm not a fine print reader so I never checked. I got mine from performance as well


I makes a good argument to buy an expensive item like a KickR from Performance


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

Crap, I got my directly from Kickr. Heck, I didn't even know Performance carried them or I would have gotten it from them. 

I am not a scum back...I repeat...I am not a Scumbag...but...I once took back a pair of XTR pedals that I used heavily on my MTB for 3 years and they were beat to heck...I just told them I was no longest happy with them and they handed me a new pair. I then felt bad and told the kid I wasn't comfortable with the exchange and I was just seeing how far I could push the "lifetime warranty". He just shrugged his shoulders and said "hey that's our policy so take the new ones".


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

I've had the optical sensor die on mine twice and my wife's (yes, we have two) had the strain gauge go bad (the 4000+ spindown offset problem). This happened on 2 consecutive days over Christmas. Now the up-side. Wahoo replaced both with brand new units even though mine was a few months out of warranty! Now THAT's good customer service! I didn't have a great experience when my first optical sensor failed (about 3 months in), but they certainly have their act together now. I heard through the grapevine that some new person had bought them out, but whatever happened, they're standing behind the product (as I would expect for a $1200 product, but still... unfortunately not a foregone conclusion these days). 

I have nothing but good to say about the Kickr (my wife and I both use TrainerRoad with ours; haven't done the Zwift thing yet) and Wahoo's customer service. Two thumbs up.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

OldChipper said:


> I've had the optical sensor die on mine twice and my wife's (yes, we have two) had the strain gauge go bad (the 4000+ spindown offset problem). This happened on 2 consecutive days over Christmas. Now the up-side. Wahoo replaced both with brand new units even though mine was a few months out of warranty! Now THAT's good customer service! I didn't have a great experience when my first optical sensor failed (about 3 months in), but they certainly have their act together now. I heard through the grapevine that some new person had bought them out, but whatever happened, they're standing behind the product (as I would expect for a $1200 product, but still... unfortunately not a foregone conclusion these days).
> 
> I have nothing but good to say about the Kickr (my wife and I both use TrainerRoad with ours; haven't done the Zwift thing yet) and Wahoo's customer service. Two thumbs up.


Hearing about these trouble with the Kicrkr makes me think twice about considering one. I like the idea of controlled resistance but it seems to come at a high cost


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

DaveG said:


> Hearing about these trouble with the Kicrkr makes me think twice about considering one. I like the idea of controlled resistance but it seems to come at a high cost


In my opinion there just quality defects. I think the build is sound, just the problem is throughput. What i mean by that is yes the price is high for what it is, and most wont buy something like a kickr, thus wahoo probably makes limited batches, and depending on what batch you get, will determine the level of quality.

That is why i bought this from performance bike. So i can take advantage of there exchange policy when something like this happens.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

pittcanna said:


> In my opinion there just quality defects. I think the build is sound, just the problem is throughput.


Without quality, there is no such thing as a sound build. They are intrinsically combined. If your quality control procedures alloy your product to vary from batch to batch, your company has huge problems.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

I still stand behind the kickr. It is a solid piece of equipment, like any bike related equipment if you use it, it may fail.

I say this to all people who think just because a product fails, doesnt mean it should deter your decision from buying one. That is why there are consumer protections in place.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

pittcanna said:


> In my opinion there just quality defects. I think the build is sound, just the problem is throughput. What i mean by that is yes the price is high for what it is, and most wont buy something like a kickr, thus wahoo probably makes limited batches, and depending on what batch you get, will determine the level of quality.
> 
> That is why i bought this from performance bike. So i can take advantage of there exchange policy when something like this happens.


Right now I am using a dumb trainer (Kurt Kinetic) with a Powertap wheel when using Zwift and TrainerRoad. That seems to all work well. It would be nice to have the resistance realistically match the climb but I am OK for now with just jacking up the watts, especially given the cost of a smart trainer and my inherent cheapness. The quality issues makes that decision even easier


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

pittcanna said:


> I still stand behind the kickr. It is a solid piece of equipment, like any bike related equipment if you use it, it may fail.
> 
> I say this to all people who think just because a product fails, doesnt mean it should deter your decision from buying one. That is why there are consumer protections in place.


yeah happy with mine too.... I'd still buy one if I was shopping today for a trainer.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

AndreyT said:


> "Low grade Chinese electronics"? "High grade Japanese electronics"? Silly Internet legends live on...
> 
> Aside from high-grade stuff like Intel CPUs, all electronics is made in Taiwan.


All electronics made in Taiwan huh? ugh buddy...


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

tlg said:


> Without quality, there is no such thing as a sound build. They are intrinsically combined. If your quality control procedures alloy your product to vary from batch to batch, your company has huge problems.


One thing to keep in mind, is that the parts, all the way down to the individual capacitors and resistors are sourced from hundreds of different vendors. Somewhat recently, there was an issue with counterfeit electronics components making it into the mainstream supplies, so you have caps and resistors and such going bad long before they should. It's a distinct possibility that any vendor, even ones excellent quality control, to manufacture items that will fail.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

ljvb said:


> One thing to keep in mind, is that the parts, all the way down to the individual capacitors and resistors are sourced from hundreds of different vendors. Somewhat recently, there was an issue with counterfeit electronics components making it into the mainstream supplies, so you have caps and resistors and such going bad long before they should. It's a distinct possibility that any vendor, even ones excellent quality control, to manufacture items that will fail.


A company's quality control program should include quality control and auditing of their suppliers. You're not building a sound product if you aren't sourcing quality components. As the OEM, you're responsible for everything that goes into your product.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

tlg said:


> A company's quality control program should include quality control and auditing of their suppliers. You're not building a sound product if you aren't sourcing quality components. As the OEM, you're responsible for everything that goes into your product.


You do realize components on that level are typically hard to control. Short of non-destructive testing no-ones quality is 100% guaranteed. 

Which brings me to another topic a kickr is not worth a 6 sigma qc plan. 6 sigma, lean manufacturing, and kaizen are all buzz words in the quality control realm. I have seen companies who have a decent engineered product, they put the product through a 6 sigma plan, and the end result is a company will never get product to the customer, so they never build real data.

Quality control is as much as hindrance and by all means limits real innovation, as a product will most likely be killed by its own qc plan.

Engineering in the sense has taken a considerable hit in quality and throughput because of overbearing qc plans.

The engineering of old was vastly more effective than that of the engineering of now.

The engineering of old school allowed for quantum leaps

The engineering of now only is marginal gains at best.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

pittcanna said:


> You do realize components on that level are typically hard to control. Short of non-destructive testing no-ones quality is 100% guaranteed.


Well... given I'm and engineer and deal with quality control on a daily basis I know nothing is 100% guaranteed. But hard to control ≠ impossible to control.
You can spec electronics from some random Chinese supplier without knowing their controls. Or you could spec electronics from a supplier with a known quality program.
ISO 9001:2008 Certification - Filmcapacitors


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

tlg said:


> Well... given I'm and engineer and deal with quality control on a daily basis I know nothing is 100% guaranteed. But hard to control ≠ impossible to control.
> You can spec electronics from some random Chinese supplier without knowing their controls. Or you could spec electronics from a supplier with a known quality program.
> ISO 9001:2008 Certification - Filmcapacitors


Ah typical engineer making the scope leap for a non critical item. LOL

I am an engineer in the quality realm too, but for medical device. And let me tell you this ISO 9001 can not hold a candle to ISO 13485.

And iso 13485 can not even touch as 9100.

But the bottom line quality control is so muddled, be cause deep down it boils down to the people enforcing it.

Getting back to my original point, the qc behind the kickr is probably good enough considering that really there is like 400 dollars worth of components, and about 200 to 300 of labor and maybe 100 worth of overhead. Bottom line they can take back faulty units, repair them and sell them like new.

Chances are there qc is probably more lenient than that of your standard iso 9001. As they really dont need the iso 9001 certification. And further more ISO is as clueless as anything, depending on who you go "buy" intertek, bsi, or even tuv. The certs are as flimsy as the auditors.

I say buy, because any corp can buy a cert. They do get final say over the audit report.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

pittcanna said:


> I say buy, because...


Given the rest of your posts, that would not have been my guess as to the reason for saying "buy". So it's good that you pointed that out.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> Given the rest of your posts, that would not have been my guess as to the reason for saying "buy". So it's good that you pointed that out.


I say buy also, any company can buy a cert to be certified iso 9001 or even 13485. AS9100 is a tricky one.

I say that because a bolt failure in the areospace industry can cause the death of about 200 people.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

The point I was making originally, is that when fake or poor quality low level components make it into the mainstream supplies, and when they are indistinguishable from their higher quality components, it can be difficult, if not impossible to now that a failure will occur, even with quality quality control (yes I did that on purpose  ) procedures in place. As in many cases, the failures occur over time, in a span that exceeds to QC time frame process. So while the products will pass QC, after a certain period, they will fail. Yes, it is possible to simulate said time frames (like say operating the device in an oven for 3 weeks straight), and wear and tear can be simulated. But ultimately, sometimes things make it through.

I like to use World of Warcraft as a good example, before it was released (yes I know I am labeling myself a nerd here lol), it was beta tested by 10's of thousands of users, everything went well. Then on release when suddenly there were 10's of millions of users, and everything went to hell for the first few weeks.

Anotehr example.. perfect for this forum.. Garmin.. Has a decent reputation, although also has some serious QC issues, based on the fact that over Christmas, I returned an FR230 for a offset screen issue, payed the additional for the 235, and it had the same damn problem. (I won't even get into their firmware issues.. I'm pretty sure the QC for their firmware are 3 monkeys with their hands over their mouth, eyes and ears  )


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

There is nothing "normal" about the failures described here. Today it is actually unusual for electronics (at this price level) to pass final test, and work in service, then fail after a few months. 

It points to bad design (part is overstressed, used at the edge of it limits, etc) or very poor parts quality. There can also be environmental factors, i.e. corrosion, shock / vibration, etc., but this also comes back to poor design. 
One can easily source quality electronic parts sourced direct from known good manufacturers, with lot number control, etc, without paying huge premiums.
Yes their is a counterfeit problem, but everyone is aware of it, and a company would have to be asleep at the wheel to be truly fooled by that today. 
On the other hand, management not following the guidelines set by engineers, to save 50 cents for no name parts would not be unusual at all.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I have no idea what the failure rate is. I do know that Wahoo, and the bike shop both stand behind the purchase. That's good enough for me. 

I have a lot of time on a KICKR (and use several other Wahoo products). I ride a KICKR at a local studio 3 mornings a week from October to April the last three offseasons (this being #3). My experience there convinced me to purchase one for home use as well (I'm rehabbing a badly injured shoulder, so spending lots of time on the trainer). I've had the unit at home for about a month now, and ride it nearly daily. My girlfriend has one that she purchased for last winter off season. It's been ridden regularly for the last year and a half (mostly in the dark season), and has served her flawlessly as well.

I have absolutely zero regrets about making the purchase, and she feels the same way about hers. I would rank it at, or very near the top of the best value of all of my 'major' bicycle rated purchases. 

I've not had any major issues with mine. I did have a minor 'compatibility' problem with one of my bikes. My interactions with Wahoo support were excellent. I have high confidence that if I have a problem with it, either the LBS where I purchased it, or Wahoo themselves will take care of the issue.


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## LuckyB (Sep 9, 2012)

I don't own a KICKR but, I am a Wahooligan. Good company.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Yeah, I would still recommend a Kickr. Sure they've had some teething pains, but they're standing behind the product. It works very well and is probably the cheapest option out there that has all it's features and is wheel-off to boot. Plus it's compatible with more cool software programs than pretty much anything else.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

My KICKR died yesterday - 1:15 into an 1:30 ride. I have had it for about a month and a half. I was out of town for a week of that and sick for another week. Somewhere around 15 to 20 rides on it. 

ANT+ completely disappeared. I could not reconnect it to computer at all. Restarted computer twice, unplugged the KICKR unit a couple times, disconnected everything else (PM, HRM), and tried a different computer. 

The KICKR would connect to my phone via bluetooth (with zero to one bluetooth bar right next to the KICKR top cap).

I did not try another ANT dongle as I have only one. But, that one still worked with my PM and HRM. So, I don't think that was the cause. 

Exchanged it at REI this morning. Didn't try to call Wahoo. REI would exchange it. I was not messing with warranty.


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

crit_boy said:


> My KICKR died yesterday - 1:15 into an 1:30 ride. I have had it for about a month and a half. I was out of town for a week of that and sick for another week. Somewhere around 15 to 20 rides on it.
> 
> ANT+ completely disappeared. I could not reconnect it to computer at all. Restarted computer twice, unplugged the KICKR unit a couple times, disconnected everything else (PM, HRM), and tried a different computer.
> 
> ...


Now I am getting nervous.

I can see it coming now:

Friends: Hey man, why are you so fat.

Me: My trainer died

Friends: Why don't you just ride your bike outside

Me: My Di2 is dead and I can't find my cable

Friends: Can you just ride your Mountain Bike

Me: I could but I need data and I left my Garmin at Mike's house last week

Friends: Want to just drink some IPAs

Me: Yes


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

crit_boy said:


> My KICKR died yesterday - 1:15 into an 1:30 ride. I have had it for about a month and a half. I was out of town for a week of that and sick for another week. Somewhere around 15 to 20 rides on it.
> 
> ANT+ completely disappeared. I could not reconnect it to computer at all. Restarted computer twice, unplugged the KICKR unit a couple times, disconnected everything else (PM, HRM), and tried a different computer.
> 
> ...


Curious as to where the Kickr's are made? This is a small sample size but this does seem like there are some issues here. I've gone to lusting after one to thinking my fluid trainer ain't so bad after all


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

ParadigmDawg said:


> Now I am getting nervous.
> 
> I can see it coming now:


You should be nervous. If the idea of fixing a trainer or charging Di2 overwhelms you I can't imagine what you do to keep your tires inflated, your wheels true and your water bottle filled.


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

DaveWC said:


> You should be nervous. If the idea of fixing a trainer or charging Di2 overwhelms you I can't imagine what you do to keep your tires inflated, your wheels true and your water bottle filled.


My Audi dealer maintains my car, my bike, my tires, my wheels and my water bottles....It's one of the perks available when you purchase a R8

Where do get get that any of this overwhelms me though. Obviously it was a joke pertaining to how complex/technical riding a bike has gotten or can be...


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> My KICKR died yesterday.


2nd KICKR is now dead. 

Below are two images from trainerroad workouts, ten minute intervals (ERG mode, auto power match with elsa r PM). The blue is target power, yellow is actual power. 


Couple Days ago:Last January:















<tbody>

</tbody>
When new, the KICKR did a decent job of maintaining power. Now, not so much. 

That is the "best" ride I have had with the kickr in the last couple weeks. I am not fighting with a $1200 trainer. I am going to return/exchange it tomorrow. 

Looking at DCrainmaker.com new kickr comments (link), post #174-177 from valleycycle are a really good description of the issues that have plagued both my kickrs.

I spent an hour and a half trying to get the thing to work today. Two computers, two ANT+ sticks, and a phone. 

At this point: Bluetooth is toast (wahoo app and utility are not able to find kickr on bluetooth). Consecutive spindowns in the same ride vary widely (0 offset to 385 offset over 4 consecutive spindowns). Target power (even with disabled power match) and actual power have no correlation (sometimes 150 watt target is 320 watts actual and other times 150 watts target is 80 watts actual). Wahoo fitness app in erg mode cannot control power. 

Not sure whether I will end up with another version one or the new kickr.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Hrm..

I have over 3000 virtual miles between Zwift and Trainer Road on the original KICKR and have never had any problems.

Here is a fairly recent Sufferfest Nine Hammers ride I did. It's still tracking really well.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

Migen21 said:


> Hrm..
> 
> I have over 3000 virtual miles between Zwift and Trainer Road on the original KICKR and have never had any problems.
> 
> Here is a fairly recent Sufferfest Nine Hammers ride I did. It's still tracking really well.


Substitute KICKR for ELEMNT and this thread could very well mirror the experiences you've had with the latter. I think this is the same type of circumstance, wherein there appears to be a consistent problem amongst a handful of units. As I said to you, I feel that this is an issue with the unit that will not get fixed no matter how many patches/fixes Wahoo throws at it. They need to acknowledge the problem (QC?) and do a soft-recall. JMO.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I loved the iOS segment app wahoo used to have... then they left it high and dry. Kinda soured me to Wahoo in general since the app cost $30 bucks at the time. Glad I moved on to Tacx in a way.. but whole new set of minor issues to deal with. I still have my gen Kickr and it has been solid over the years since it's initial warranty replacement.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Wetworks said:


> Substitute KICKR for ELEMNT and this thread could very well mirror the experiences you've had with the latter. I think this is the same type of circumstance, wherein there appears to be a consistent problem amongst a handful of units. As I said to you, I feel that this is an issue with the unit that will not get fixed no matter how many patches/fixes Wahoo throws at it. They need to acknowledge the problem (QC?) and do a soft-recall. JMO.


FWIW,

My ELEMNT has been working flawlessly since that big mid-summer firmware update. The odd issue I had with the GPS not working seemed to be a one-off, as it has not re-occurred.

This is probably a good time to point out that Wahoo has outstanding customer seervice and product support. They continue to provide patches and updates with bug fixes and new features to their products. When I had the GPS issue with the ELEMNT, they offered to replace it, even though the warranty period had expired.

This is the polar opposite of my experience with Garmin.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Migen21 said:


>


That looks like Trainerroad without a separate bike power meter. Different issue than I had. FWIW, both my dead kickrs made a graph that appeared that stable.


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## eriku16 (Jul 27, 2011)

Their customer service had better be good, it's their only saving grace. However, with all the continuing problems/issues with the kickr and the ELEMNT, I would not recommend them, period.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

So, I returned my old and 2nd kickr for a New KICKR/KICKR2. 

Below is todays's workout. First three intervals were ERG mode auto match with Elsa R (same setup as before with new kickr). After 3rd interval, I did a spindown in TR and ran the last interval with powermatch disabled. Appears the kickr2 reads about 10% less than my PM.








Hopefully, the lack of strain gauge and new temperature sensors/compensation will allow the KICKR2 to last longer.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

crit_boy said:


> So, I returned my old and 2nd kickr for a New KICKR/KICKR2.
> 
> Below is todays's workout. First three intervals were ERG mode auto match with Elsa R (same setup as before with new kickr). After 3rd interval, I did a spindown in TR and ran the last interval with powermatch disabled. Appears the kickr2 reads about 10% less than my PM.
> View attachment 317095
> ...


crit, I am a bit confused what we are looking at. Are you using your PM or the KICKR as your power measurement to TR?.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

DaveG said:


> crit, I am a bit confused what we are looking at. Are you using your PM or the KICKR as your power measurement to TR?.


My power meter (quarq elsa r) is reporting the power (yellow lines). The top of the blue is the target power. In the the first three intervals, trainerroad's power matching is controlling the kickr to make it match my power meter and to get actual power as close to the target power as possible.

In the last interval, trainerroad power matching is disabled. So, TR tells the kicker to make X watts of resistance (PM measured power is not used as a feedback loop). It just appears that the kickr's watts are about 10% less than my power meter. For example, trainerroad tells kickr to run at 270 watts; kickr runs at 270 watts - but my powermeter measures that 270 kickr watts as 300 watts at the crank spider.

I did not do this today - But - If I took my power meter out of the equation (e.g.remove battery from pm or disconnect it from trainerroad), i would get a yellow line like that of migen21.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

crit_boy said:


> My power meter (quarq elsa r) is reporting the power (yellow lines). In the the first three intervals, trainerroad's power matching is controlling the kickr to make it match my power meter.
> 
> In the last interval, trainerroad power matching is disabled. So, TR tells the kicker to make X watts of resistance (PM measured power is not used as a feedback loop). It just appears that the kickr's watts are about 10% less than my power meter. For example, trainerroad tells kickr to run at 270 watts; kickr runs at 270 watts - but my powermeter measures that 270 kickr watts as 300 watts at the crank spider.


Thanks for clarifying. 10% is a surprising amount given the stated accuracy of these devices. I am curious as to how the new KICKR calculates power without using a strain gauge.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Wrt power and the kickr2, Watch the interview with the wahoo fitness guy in dcrainmakers review of the kickr2.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

DaveG said:


> Thanks for clarifying. 10% is a surprising amount given the stated accuracy of these devices. I am curious as to how the new KICKR calculates power without using a strain gauge.


I briefly checked my Neo vs my bike PM.. I was about 20w @ 200.. so it appears my Neo matches Crit boy's kickr. Tech support has not been much help either. This was very early on like day2 of owning my Neo... need to sit down and take the time to plan another test out a little more controlled fashion.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Haven't fooled around much with the power matching as my normal trainer bike doesn't have a crank-based power meter (Rotor cranks), but my subjective perception matches Crit_boy's more rigorous, data-based observation i.e. the Kickr reads about 10% low. Not a huge deal if you know and adjust your FTP accordingly (at least in TrainerRoad anyway). As noted before, my first Gen1 Kickr died after a couple of months (as did my wife's). Wahoo replaced both with new Gen1s which have been working well at least until recently when mine has started to get wonky again (randomly stops matching target power during a workout - which is different from my previous problem). My wife's is still going strong. Hopefully if mine totally craps out, they'll replace it again - though I've had trouble in the past communicating with CS in a timely fashion). Fingers-crossed.


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## karlkras (Nov 25, 2005)

well this is just a little disturbing... of course anything can fail and one year really isn't that long.
I'm awaiting delivery on a kickr (original version) sometime later this week. Any idea how much it would run to repair a failed kickr if it were out of warrantee? I'm guessing the recon's they sell on their site must be repaired units returned from such failures?


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