# Stages powermeter gives zero watt and zero cadence reading during out of saddle



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

When I get out of the saddle, the powermeter will, within 5 to 7 seconds, give a zero wattage reading, zero cadence reading, and causes my Garmin 500 to "auto pause" (Garmin will do this when there's a powermeter attached to it and the power meter read zero cadence).

This didn't happen to me before (at least I don't recall such moment). I only notice this within the last month or so. Maybe it could have happened before but I just wasn't noticing it.

I have already replaced the battery.

And here are additional detail. I can stay seated and peddle at a very low 40 rpm, using high torque, and the Stage would be working fine. But as soon as I get out of the saddle and dance on the pedals, the Stages wattage and cadence reading will start to drop and within 5-7 seconds the wattage and cadence will go to zero, even though I can dancing on my pedal at 80 rpm. Once I get back in my seat and pedal (even at a low 40 rpm) the Stages will register the wattage and cadence again.

What is going on here? Has anyone experienced this? or might know why it's doing this? I'll have to call Stages on Monday, and possible send this one back to have them take a look though.

edit:
I upgraded to the latest firmware, and it's still not helping. However, I took the bike out for a quick spin and notice something peculiar. If I pedal out of the saddle at a high rpm, in the 85-90 rpm range, then the wattage and cadence will register. But if I back off the cadence a bit, to say 70 rpm, the wattage and cadence will slow drop to zero again. So it looks like I need to pedal pretty fast out of the saddle in order for the Stages to work. However, if I stay seated, the Stage seem to work for cadence as low as 35-40 rpm. Below 30 rpm, then wattage and cadence goes to zero again.

Man,, I wonder if pedalling out of the saddle at a low rpm must somehow cause the strain gauze of the Stages to not work correctly?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Speculating: It sounds like an issue with the accelerometer data used for determining crank rotational speed. 

Stages doesn't perform all that well with measuring short and rapid changes in maximal / near maximal power efforts, so it's possibly a similar underlying cause is at play. I thought that might be more about the left side only issue, but perhaps it's a combination of factors.

See what Stages say.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Something is wrong with the unit. The warranty is your friend.


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## rchung (Apr 19, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> This didn't happen to me before (at least I don't recall such moment). I only notice this within the last month or so. Maybe it could have happened before but I just wasn't noticing it.


Maybe it was happening before but you just weren't noticing it? Hmmm. Well, if so, it would be behaving consistently, and I've been assured that the only thing that matters is that it's consistent. So just sit down to pedal.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I called Stages and it could it could be the battery door. Apparently, my battery door is broken and this may cause a disconnection when I'm out off the saddle rocking the crankarm. So Stages is sending me a new battery door, and we'll do from there. (Note: I have been using electrical tape to hold the battery door on the Stages!).

I also took the opportunity to do some additional testing while I'm at it.

When I put the bike on a rigid trainer (Kurt Kinetic Road Machine), and attempt to pedal out of the saddle, then the wattage reading and cadence do not go to zero. I tried it for 2-3 minutes, and the reading didn't go to zeros, which would have happened on the road. So at this point the hypothesis is that the rocking of the crankarm on the road is causing the battery to lose connection. We'll see when the new battery door arrives.

On another (positive) note, with the lastest 2.0.58 firmware seems to have the wattage reading match very very closely to my Powertap G3. I was on 2.0.38 before, which was a couple of revisions older, and under 2.0.38, the Stages always seem to read 5%+ lower. Now the two powermeters track very closely to one another. So this is good.

Will update this thread once the battery door gets here.


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## star69 (Apr 4, 2014)

Sounds like a problem with the unit. Mine works fine 50 rpm and up. Probably lower as well but I wouldn't know because there's no reason to pedal that slow.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

star69 said:


> Sounds like a problem with the unit. Mine works fine 50 rpm and up. Probably lower as well but I wouldn't know because there's no reason to pedal that slow.


I think it's the problem with the unit too. I'm just hoping that the new battery door will fix it. Otherwise, I will most likely have to send the unit back (hope I don't have to do).


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

What are you using for speed input, GPS or a Speed sensor. The Garmin should care about power / cadence for auto pause, it doesn't on the bike I have a stages PM on. If it did, you would go on auto pause any time you are coasting down a hill. I'd say auto pause is unrelated to your cadence / PM information for stages. On my bikes with power hubs they stop showing speed on the Garmin when the battery dies but won't go on auto pause either.


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## simonaway427 (Jul 12, 2010)

Srode said:


> What are you using for speed input, GPS or a Speed sensor. The Garmin should care about power / cadence for auto pause, it doesn't on the bike I have a stages PM on. If it did, you would go on auto pause any time you are coasting down a hill. I'd say auto pause is unrelated to your cadence / PM information for stages. On my bikes with power hubs they stop showing speed on the Garmin when the battery dies but won't go on auto pause either.


^^^this.

Your Garmin should not be autopausing due to zero cadence or power - or else it would pause anytime you coast down a hill. Usually autopause is related to a speed...

I'd definitely check the battery door. I broke the tabs off of one and had sporadic data loss like you described. Try the new battery cover and report back.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

the cadence floor on the old firmware was 30... now supposed to be 20.. I have doubts. Might explain some of the weirdness... but most likely something is up with your PM.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm still awaiting for the new battery door to arrive.

On the bike that all this issue originally happened on, I have *no* cadence sensor, only the Stages. Garmin unit is Edge 500. I set the Garmin auto-pause to use parameters "by position" with a threshold speed of 3.0 mi/hr; so essentially a speed of under 3.0 mph will trigger autopause on the Garmin. And because a power meter (Stages) is attached to the Garmin, the Garmin will use the Stages for speed acquisition, and not GPS, (and obviously not cadence sensor since I don't have one). I would need to turn OFF the Stages in the menu of the Garmin in order to have the Garmin switch to GPS for speed acquisition. But as long as there is a power meter linked to the Garmin, the Garmin will use data from the powermeter first. That is the order of data acquisition for the Garmin as I understand it.

So I'm speculating that when the Stages wattage and cadence go to zero, the Stages (thru its own internal algorithm) reports a speed of 0 mph to the Garmin and thereby causing the Garmin to go into autopause. This is my speculation.

Or...hmm... does Garmin calculate its own speed based on the reported cadence of the powermeter? If this is the case, then if cadence goes to zero, so does speed, right?

However, while waiting for the battery door... I did some additional tinkering with the Stages (w/ taped up battery door) on the Kurt Kinetic trainer. And something else peculiar happened that has _never_ happened to me with the Stages before. That peculiar thing is that the Garmin will now *autopause* even when the Stages is reporting a wattage and cadence reading. And again, autopause criteria for the Garmin is kept the *same* (ie. "_by position_" and _threshold speed of 3.0 mph_). During this time, I also ran a Stages iPad apps and it too is acquiring wattage reading and cadence from the Stages. Unfortunately...(sigh)... I did not get a chance to look at the speed that the Garmin was reading (I did not set "speed" as a viewable field in the Garmin).. and the Stages Cycling iPad app does not report speed. However, tonight when I get home, I will repeat this experiment again but this time enable the "speed" field in the Garmin.

...hope all this reporting is not confusing the heck outta some of you.. really praying that the battery door will sort all these out.. but the more I experiment, the more I think it ain't just the battery door.

(On a sidenote, I just spoke with a friend today who uses a Quark powermeter, and he told me that sometimes he'll get zero wattage reading on his Garmin too. So I guess that's another data point in this whole confusion eh.)


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

The Stages doesn't send a speed signal in the ANT+ data stream.

Only one power meter provides a speed signal in its data stream - Powertap.

If you don't use a speed sensor on a moving wheel, then you are reliant on GPS signal for speed readings.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

If you think about it you will realize there is no way a crank based device can determine speed as it doesn't know what gear you are in and can't discern if you are coasting (moving) and just not pedaling or if you are stopped from anything going on at the crank. I have a stages on one bike and when I stop pedaling and am coasting it does not pause my Garmin and it is set to autopause at 3.8 mph if I recall correctly. GPS or a speedometer can tell if you are moving, not a stages power meter. 

A powertap hub doesn't care what gear you are in because it can tell relative position of a wheel and the Garmin uses what ever you have for wheel setting to determine speed. Obviously if the wheel isn't moving you aren't moving. 

Of course the Garmin auto pauses on the trainer regardless of the fact your crank is moving and you have watts / cadence, because it is looking at GPS speed which says you aren't moving.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I've never experienced any of these problems because I have auto pause set to off. No use for it.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Alex and Srod, 

thank you for the explanation regarding speed and the Stages. That made perfect sense for me now. I probably did not notice that the Garmin was on autopause in the past then!! and this could very well be the case since I almost exclusively train with the Powertap when on the trainer, and almost never put the Stages on the trainer. This would explain my lack of attention regarding speed and the Stages here. Thank you for clearing up this *expected* behavior.

...still holding my breath for the battery door solution..


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Fireform said:


> I've never experienced any of these problems because I have auto pause set to off. No use for it.


hey one time I racked up 200 miles on a ride, but alas was a little disappointed I never stopped my garmin! But I get your point. Sometime that beeping sound can be annoying.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

With my bike on a trainer... with auto pause both on and off and no speed indicated on the Garmin, my stages will report power number at cadences below 30RPMs...


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

oh and quickly go by a left arm off ebay for your crank set... thank me later.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

spdntrxi said:


> With my bike on a trainer... with auto pause both on and off and no speed indicated on the Garmin, my stages will report power number at cadences below 30RPMs...


Thanks for the data point. Yeah when i'm on the trainer, the Stages behaves as expected, that is, it does not dropout the wattage nor cadence reading, even at low 40 rpm. In fact, it doesn't even happen when I'm out of the saddle on the trainer. 

It's only when I'm out of the saddle and on the road that this issue occur, and it seems to occur over any rpm. So at this point, I'm still hoping it's a battery door issue (hopefully the replace door gets here today so i can test!).

But I have to add something. When I'm out of the saddle on the trainer, I take it easy, that is, I don't rock as hard then when I'm out of the saddle on the road. So maybe this is why when I'm out of the saddle on the trainer, the Stages doesn't dropout because I'm not rocking the bike hard enough to affect it? Just my speculation, but it does sort of make sense to me.

and yes, I already have a spare left arm for the crankset  I only bought the left arm of the Stages, not their complete crankset.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

I think you should start figuring out what the issue is with your auto pause. Turn off the stages and see if you are getting the same issue. From my understanding you are not using a speed sensor on the wheel and solely relying on GPS. 

GPS signal in trees, etc can be extremely flakey and I turn auto pause off for that very reason. I often go up a climb here that's covered in tree with a friend of mine that uses auto pause on his 510. I hear it pausing and starting all the time even though it uses GPS + GLONASS.

On another note Garmin just came out with a magnet-less speed sensor that seems quite nifty. You can put it on the hub of your front wheel.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Well the new battery door arrived and I tried it. Issue was not fixed. It was false hope, but to be honest I did not get my hope up too high because it didn't make too much sense to think that a battery could lose disconnection with the torque of the crankarm (no human could possibly twist a crankarm that hard as to contort the Stages to the point of causing the battery to lose contact with its electrodes).

Furthermore, today I was also able to replicate the issue (with the new battery door this time) on my trainer too, whereas in the past I wasn't. So now the issue occur both on the road and on the trainer. No question about it.

I think Alex was right about the speculation into the accelerometer. When I pedal out of the saddle, my torque delivery is not as smooth around each revolution as I'm when seated. So perhaps something is wrong about the accelerometer that causes it to think that I have stopped pedalling.

Anyway, I'll be calling Stages again and looking to send this one back.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> I think Alex was right about the speculation into the accelerometer. When I pedal out of the saddle, my torque delivery is not as smooth around each revolution as I'm when seated. So perhaps something is wrong about the accelerometer that causes it to think that I have stopped pedalling.


My post had nothing to do with the stages power meter. What I'm saying is you should turn off auto pause and see if that fixes your issue. As noted above, Garmins don't auto pause when there is 0 power.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

deviousalex said:


> My post had nothing to do with the stages power meter. What I'm saying is you should turn off auto pause and see if that fixes your issue. As noted above, Garmins don't auto pause when there is 0 power.


Autopause was been turned off, and it didn't fix the issue.

And furthermore, the Stages iPad app also register zero reading when the issue does happen. So this points to the Garmin as not being the source of problem.

And also, this issue did'nt happen to me before when I first got the Stages. I used the Stages for 2 months before this issue comes up.

Anyway, i called Stages and they're having me send it back for analysis. So we'll see what they find out back there.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

update for those interested:

Stages has received my power meter, and here's what Dan at Stages stated in an email to me:



> We have confirmed a low calibration value at the very least


Repair is under way. I must say, I'm very impressed with Stages customer service. They received the powermeter in the morning, and by afternoon I already got an email from Dan with an update. That's impressive customer service.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

I suppose you get better at customer service the more practice you get


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I suppose you get better at customer service the more practice you get


ideally people would want a working product and never have to deal with customer service. But I knew Stages is a nascent company and there'll be bound to be some growing pain, and they're trying to lessen my pain, even emailed a prepaid overnight shipping labe for me to ship it back, and tested the product the same day they received it. I can live with that.

On a related note, I bought an expensive pro fax modem (yes, modems are still needed in some industries) to the tune of $600, about 3 years ago, and back then I was still running WinXP. Now that I've upgraded to Win7, I just learned that the maker of the modem does not support Win7 and does not plan to ever. Their cust support rep told me to buy their newer modem model, another $600, and they'd be happy to take my order over the phone. Excuse me?? They can't just write drivers for Win7? Their "newer" model uses the same analog chip. Luckily I was able to modify their old driver files to make them work with Win7 (but most people will not have the know-how to even bother). I'd say this is pretty common attitude from makers of niche products in the tech industry. They're the only player in town, take it or leave it. Luckily, Stages has strong competition! Amen to competition.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

update:
I've received the Stages back yesterday, and it's working fine now. So problem has been fixed.


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## B-rider (Sep 12, 2014)

Now that you have a working power meter, what's your overall assessment? I've always wanted to train with power but didn't have an extra $2K laying around. Everytime my group attack hills and see who wins the imaginary polka-dot jersey for the day, my legs are just about spent on the last 3 hills. Very hard to guess how much power I'm putting out when I'm hard-wired to mash!! Was this you?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

B-rider said:


> Now that you have a working power meter, what's your overall assessment? I've always wanted to train with power but didn't have an extra $2K laying around. Everytime my group attack hills and see who wins the imaginary polka-dot jersey for the day, my legs are just about spent on the last 3 hills. Very hard to guess how much power I'm putting out when I'm hard-wired to mash!! Was this you?


I'm not a masher at all. I'm the opposite of a masher. I'm a spinner. My assessment with powermeter is that if you put in a lot of hours on the bike (eg, 10+ hrs/wk for a weekend warrior), and you wish to make the most out of your allotted time, then you need a structured training program and with a structure program come the obligatory need to know your TSS score and hence the need for a power meter. At least this is the belief in training if you buy into that stuff.

Another use of the power meter is if you're looking to do a 3-4 hrs ride where you're trying to pace a zone (eg, pace a zone 3), then a power meter helps here. But heartrate can also be used, so in that case you really don't need a PM.

For all out 30-sec anaerobic intervals, then you don't need a PM. But for longer intervals, eg, 3min or 5min intervals, where you need to push hard but cannot go all out, then a PM helps here.

For those long range 3-4mile hill attack, a PM also helps. But even here, heartrate monitoring can also be used but a PM is more fine-tune (at least to me) and prevents you from going into all out anaerobic and die.

For those imaginary club ride polka dot attack, well that's sort of similar to either a 1min interval for shorter attack or 3min interval for a longer attack, and these you can train pretty well with a PM, by doing intervals.

As for me personally, I'm 116 lbs and I simply do not have the muscle mass in my leg to out-power the big guys in any hill attack that is shorter than 1min. However, my forte is long range climb where I have sustained 90-93% of FTP for 2 hrs.

In addition, with a PM, and for the past 4 weeks or so, I have been putting in close to 20 hrs/wk with a purpose of increasing my FTP, and so far, I'm sold on such program. My power has increased about 7-8% in the last 4 weeks, and this is with me cycling for over 2 years, so 7-8% increase in FTP is huge. But it's probably due more to the fact of me putting in close to 20 hrs/wk, but a PM does enourage you to be disciplined (and discipline is not easy when you're a nonpro not racing for money).


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Curious what your training plan looks like to get that kind of increase- that's very impressive. I'm riding 200 miles a week and getting incremental improvements although admittedly it's not really very structured with the exception of a weekend sweet spot ride of 100miles.


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## B-rider (Sep 12, 2014)

*In-depth assessment*

Awesome review!! Thanks.


aclinjury said:


> I'm not a masher at all. I'm the opposite of a masher. I'm a spinner. My assessment with powermeter is that if you put in a lot of hours on the bike (eg, 10+ hrs/wk for a weekend warrior), and you wish to make the most out of your allotted time, then you need a structured training program and with a structure program come the obligatory need to know your TSS score and hence the need for a power meter. At least this is the belief in training if you buy into that stuff.
> 
> Another use of the power meter is if you're looking to do a 3-4 hrs ride where you're trying to pace a zone (eg, pace a zone 3), then a power meter helps here. But heartrate can also be used, so in that case you really don't need a PM.
> 
> ...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Srode said:


> Curious what your training plan looks like to get that kind of increase- that's very impressive. I'm riding 200 miles a week and getting incremental improvements although admittedly it's not really very structured with the exception of a weekend sweet spot ride of 100miles.


This is a good question, and one that I'm still learning and assessing after each week. My plan is a mix and match of what I get out of reading Cogan's "Training with powermeter", and mixing in some elements of training anecdotes of what works for people my size (basically skinny people). But my training plan basically boils down to putting in 20 hrs/wk on the bike. This means 2-3 hrs/day on the trainer from Monday - Friday, and weekend club rides on Saturday and Sunday. All these riding come out to be about 19-21 hrs/wk for me. On Monday - Friday (trainer days), my routine involve a lot of riding in zone 3, with periods of 10-20 minutes in FTP, then more zone 3. On certain days, I will vary my routine up by riding in zone 2, no FTP intervals, but I will hit 150% FTP and try to hold it till failure (usually this means about 1 minute), and I will repeat this for a whole hour,.. then maybe get back to zone 3 during the last 30 minutes of the session. When you have 2-3 hours to play for each session, you don't have to rush. And on the weekend, I will ride with the club, some of them legit cat 3, and try to keep up with them on climbs. When I ride with the club, I treat it as fun times, and I don't care about structure. However, there are usually small attacks from the eager cat 3 guys and I will not mind mixing up with them, them recover in zone 2/3 with the others on the flat, all fun stuff. A couple weeks ago, I was able to hammer up a 1.5 mile hill at 10% gradient and held close to 5.2 W/kg for the duration (about 6 minutes), and it surprised me too when I looked at my data after the ride.

I'm a skinny guy, I will never going to win any sprint, or even a short hill attack for that matter, so I have chosen to focus the bulk of my time in sustained near FTP effort, and use huge time volume, and 20 hrs/wk for 4 straight weeks is not easy! Your legs are always fatigue (hence I can't do too much hard anaerobic intervals because the burnage of going into the red is intense). In addition, I have also changed my diet to be almost exclusively high carb (cut out all the meat) so I can refuel my body. Ultimately, I think the main factor is just the huge volume of training I put in, and not really any particular magical (2x10, 5x5, etc) intervals that coaches often prescribed to time-limted athletes.

you may ask why ride the trainer so much? I think riding the trainer for 2-3 hrs straight (even with some water breaks and stretching breaks), it's mentally draining. The the sort of mental toughness that I enjoy. Also, riding the trainer allows me to ride uninterupted, because an interuptions (eg, you get on the road) will automatically drop your heartrate and allows you to "recover", and this to me is "cheating". Guys talk about suffering in a 30-60 min crit, but I think I suffer just as much as them, everyday. And honestly there are days that I wake up at 4 am and I don't want to get on the trainer, but I ususally do anyway. It takes real dedication.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

That's a bunch of training, impressive! Have you loaded your ride data into Golden Cheetah or similar to assess your TSS? Do you have any rest days where you don't ride? I put in about 12 -13 hours a week, couldn't sustain 20 I don't think but that could be age difference.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Srode said:


> That's a bunch of training, impressive! Have you loaded your ride data into Golden Cheetah or similar to assess your TSS? Do you have any rest days where you don't ride? I put in about 12 -13 hours a week, couldn't sustain 20 I don't think but that could be age difference.


I've past my mid 30s, so you know it's not like I'm teen or even 20s. I think a big part of it is my diet change to virtually vegan. And I don't have kids nor wife to answer to. The girlfriend has accepted it as a part of my lifestyle. She rathers me exercise and be in good health than go hangout with friends and eat bad restaurant food. I do have a full time job as an engineer. Time management is important, and it basically boils down to eat, sleep, job, and bike, with family and girlfriend time on the weekends. In bed by 8:30 pm - 9 pm at the latest.

I just looked at my training log for the past 6 weeks where no week was under 17 hrs/wk, and I had 4 rest days. So 4 rest days in 6 weeks, and guess what I hit the gym on those 4 days, lol. I firmly believe my diet is the key to maintaining all this, that and no kids/babies to worry about.

Also, all my training on weekdays are without food. I train fasted on weekdays. On weekend club rides, then I'll carry a few gels because I just never know if those guys are gonna hammer hard and for how long, but usually there will be some hammering forcing me to dips deeper into the glycogen tank.

I don't use Golden cheetah (I should), but I upload my data to Training peaks, and my TSS is usually up there. Usually, one ride per weekend I will clock in a TSS of 350, sometimes over 400, and be back on the bike come Monday. A decent cat 3 buddy of mine told me I'm insane, he said he can't put in a TSS 300 kind of ride without resting the next day or else his body will get sick like coughing and a cold. So I think for me, it all starts with the diet. For me, vegan means faster recovery and lower metabolic waste. You can only exercise as good as your fuel system allows right.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Interesting observation on the diet. Past mid 30's makes it easier than past mid 50's!  What's your weekly TSS? I can't get past about 800 without fatigue becoming a barrier to training, sounds like you are closer to 1000?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Srode said:


> Interesting observation on the diet. Past mid 30's makes it easier than past mid 50's!  What's your weekly TSS? I can't get past about 800 without fatigue becoming a barrier to training, sounds like you are closer to 1000?


good guess on the TSS! yeah my weekly TSS is 950 on the low end, 1100 on the high end. On one particular week I put in over 1200 and I felt the body was breaking down a bit, all muscles (arms, legs, back, neck) would feel fatigue, mental focus at work was waning; I called in sick one day that week just so I could sleep some more. The mind seemed to have this "wired in" feeling like i'm high, and my eyes would be gazing blank at work at lot (good think the director was out that week). I think for me to put in over 1100+ TSS on a weekly basis and still be mentally sharp at work, I would need to average 9-10 hrs/day of sleep, and currently I'm getting about 7.5 - 8 hrs/day of sleep. As it stands, with my available time, at this age, I would say that I have pretty much pushed my body to its endurance limits while still be functional in other aspects of life, not feeling cranky and grumpy, and not get sick.

There is a guy in our club, he's 74. He puts in 10-12 hrs/wk on his road and mtb bikes. Of course he's not pushing hard like a young buck, but the guy has done many centuries, and not just flat either. Many 74 y/o's are either sick and/or in the hospitals filled with daily doses of medications, but not this guy. Simply amazing.


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