# Is this man a doper?



## Spectrum (Nov 15, 2005)

Article published in Velo News. What are your thoughts on this?
Is it medicine or dope? A cat. 4 vs. the USADA - VeloNews.com


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Interesting article. To summarize, the guy is nearly 60 and diagnosed with hypogonadism and bone density issues. He has held off racing since be began taking androgel. TUE was a dead end. 

Now he wants to continue his medication and begin racing again. 

I say this: If you are in this situation, pick racing or medication. Feel lucky that you live in a time when you can be properly medicated and recognize that you are not entitled to race bicycles. 

And remember, even if USA cycling doesn't let you race, there is no drug testing on strava.


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## little_shoe (Apr 18, 2008)

It is stuff like this I was concerned about in the wake of the USADA vs Lance Armstrong scandal last year. 

I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to race. It is not like he did this to himself so he could get a TUE to use testosterone. 

USADA needs to lighten up. I find it sad than in a country where the "obesity epidemic" is front page news, a healthy senior athlete is being kept from completing due to medication.


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## Tomahawk (May 4, 2012)

This is what's called a dangerous precedent. This guy should be thanking his lucky stars he's privileged enough to survive this thing. He's 60 years old - hang up the racing boots buddy.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Maybe they need two different "leagues" in the US. One for those going for/are pro status and another for amateurs which would have less stringent doping rules.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Tomahawk said:


> This is what's called a dangerous precedent. This guy should be thanking his lucky stars he's privileged enough to survive this thing. He's 60 years old - hang up the racing boots buddy.


Why should he? Just because he's "old"? It's a sport to him and he loves it. Live is too short to have to give up something you are still able to do, but not allowed to because of a prescription.


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## viciouscycle (Aug 22, 2009)

Tomahawk said:


> This is what's called a dangerous precedent. This guy should be thanking his lucky stars he's privileged enough to survive this thing. He's 60 years old - hang up the racing boots buddy.


I just raced a CX raced with a gentleman who was in his 70's, Im 54, and this guy rode damn good for his age. NEVER tell someone to hang up their racing boots because some day you will be told to quit!


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## Tomahawk (May 4, 2012)

Because before you know it everyone and their dog will have a prescription to take androgel. I'm not saying old guys should quit because they're old, but this guy should have some perspective not to push it.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> And remember, even if USA cycling doesn't let you race, there is no drug testing on strava.


And there's drug testing in Cat4?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

love4himies said:


> Maybe they need two different "leagues" in the US. One for those going for/are pro status and another for amateurs which would have less stringent doping rules.


In my opinion, the best argument for this is the harsh 'strict liability' rules that we expect amateurs to follow. 

While it seems fair to hold professional athletes to a high standard, we cannot expect weekend warriors to know all of the ingredients in the products they purchase over the counter. For amateurs, we may want to allow some margin of error for ignorance. 

On that note, many amateurs incorrectly assume that their prescriptions are 'legal' because they are prescriptions. These amateurs are unaware of the TUE process.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

little_shoe said:


> a healthy senior athlete is being kept from completing due to medication.


1:If he was healthy he wouldn't need the medication
2:Androgel isn't like popping an Aspirin. Androgel is a performance enhancing drug.
3:If he was really as non-competitive as he pretends to be he wouldn't bother trying to get a TUE.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Yes, he's a doper. His diagnosis is the flavor of the month in borderline medicine catering to baby boomers unable to come to grips with their bodily decline, and is highly controversial when not the result of specific pathology. His is described as - "conditions that deplete his testosterone levels and nibble away at his bone density." AKA getting old. 

The theory behind his use - being below average for his age - could be applied equally well to someone whose EPO levels are below average too. Few would question that being doping.

If he doesn't like the rules he can start his own juiced up old fart league. But Masters racing is already nearly indistinguishable from that so I don't really understand why this is even a story.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

terzo rene said it better than I could.

I know 2 cyclists currently on testosterone replacement therapy. Both are in their 50's and neither races.

The first guy has no problem admitting he's using it for performance enhancement.

The second guy used some of the common complaints of aging as a ruse to justify his planned path to get on TRT. He's currently taking injections. As a side note, I ran into him a couple Saturday's ago as he was exiting a convenience store. It was 11:30AM and I caught him red handed with a 5-Hour Energy flask in his hand. He wasn't tired and trying to stay awake; he was "prepping" for a bike ride with his brother...

My tax dollars and/or my medical premiums help subsidize their youthful fantasies. As far as I'm concerned this is one reason our medical insurance is artificially high.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2013)

He should just do what he wants to. It's a normal prescription medication. Cat 4 racing is about having fun and it makes no difference if your on a prescription medication and a doctors care. Not the same thing as juicing to the gills under the care of MD's who are criminals. Cat 4 racing does not have drug testing and none is needed.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> Cat 4 racing does not have drug testing and none is needed.


In search of relevance, a Cat. 3 turns to EPO and HGH - VeloNews.com

Cat 3 on the other hand is a whole different ballgame


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I agree with terzo zone aside from the first sentence. The guy is not a doper, not unless he races. For now he is someone taking prescription medication.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

'red handed' with a 5-hour energy? Seriously? You do realize that's about as much caffeine as a cup of coffee and they actually sponsor a pro bike team? 

How do your tax dollars subsidize this? Is he on medicare? His insurance company is probably not even covering it as he's likely diagnosed as 'low normal,' which isn't covered.

The bigger point of the article seems entirely lost. This guy wants to do the right thing. He has a substantiated medical reason for the medication, which won't give him an unfair advantage over same-aged riders without his condition - the line about the medication returning his testosterone levels to average for his age in the story is important. 



Peter P. said:


> terzo rene said it better than I could.
> 
> I know 2 cyclists currently on testosterone replacement therapy. Both are in their 50's and neither races.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

deviousalex said:


> In search of relevance, a Cat. 3 turns to EPO and HGH - VeloNews.com
> 
> Cat 3 on the other hand is a whole different ballgame


Well I had no idea that bicycle racing was rotten even down to recreational racing. Probably the guy needs to contact the appropriate officials and find out whats up in his case.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

I say it's recreational bike racing. Who gives a **** if someone is "doping" due to legitimate health issues with what are probably minimally performance enhancing drugs for the type of racing he is doing anyway.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Recreational racing is an oxymoron. If this guy was riding in sanctioned races he was racing. Period.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Peter P. said:


> terzo rene said it better than I could.
> 
> I know 2 cyclists currently on testosterone replacement therapy. Both are in their 50's and neither races.
> 
> ...


And I have a buddy in his mid 30s who has abnormally low levels. Less than 25% of normal, and well below the threshold for "low". Not even close to "low normal." If 800 is "normal", said person tested around the 170s. Not just one test, but four different ones.

I've seen his blood work after he asked me to look at it with him, saying he didn't understand it. He initially consulted a GP because he was exhausted, utterly impossible to be around due to his constant bitter attitude and complete loss of any interest in doing things with his wife, including sex. A guy in his mid 30s who can't get it up and basically just wanted to go to work and then come home and sit on the sofa for an hour before going to bed, picking an argument during that one hour he was home.

I suggested an endocrinologist to him, and said endocrinologist prescribed him a very small amount of androgel after trying several other therapies. In a couple months, he returned to about 50% of normal and he's happy. His wife is happy. He's back to the person he used to be.

Oh, and he's a competitive runner. He's back to running.

Is he a doper too? Should he not be allowed to run a sanctioned road race because he's on replacement therapy? This simply isn't a case of a 60 year old looking for the fountain of youth, it's a guy who is dealing with a legitimate medical condition and who has seen significant changes in his life because of it. 

Like most other things, there's a case by case basis for everything. If the guy in the Velonews article is truly osteoporotic and truly significantly low in terms of hormone levels (for his age) there's plenty of reason to reexamine his story. Really, if the guy was wanting to cheat, why would he go through the process of applying for a TUE? If he's a guy who's just not feeling "up" to it, and uses that as an excuse to get on TRT for the purpose of cheating in racing, that's entirely different.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Fireform said:


> Recreational racing is an oxymoron. If this guy was riding in sanctioned races he was racing. Period.


No it's not. He's not getting paid to do it. It's a hobby, it's a recreational activity. People take this stuff way too seriously.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Fireform said:


> Recreational racing is an oxymoron. If this guy was riding in sanctioned races he was racing. Period.


Yet there is a difference between amateur and professional racing. 

The lines get blurred with Cat 1 racers who get paid. There are "professional" masters teams in socal that pay their racers. And there are pro riders who get a stipend from their highly sponsored, yet still "amateur" teams. 

For the most part, we know recreational/amateur racing from professional racing.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

So if you aren't a pro you're a recreational racer? Hoookaaay...

If you don't take your races seriously there's no point in doing it. There's nothing wrong at all with saying you don't want to do it, but if you sign for a racing license and enter sanctioned races you are racing and that's that. 

The only issue is whether you abide by the conditions of your license concerning PEDs or not. I have no doubt that I'll line up this weekend against other 50+ guys who are juiced on any number of things, but I'll ride clean and live with that.


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## little_shoe (Apr 18, 2008)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> 1:If he was healthy he wouldn't need the medication


I used "healthy" in the connotation of able to be active physically. I known a lot of senior citzens who could barely walk across a building much less do an sporting events. 




robdamanii said:


> This simply isn't a case of a 60 year old looking for the fountain of youth, it's a guy who is dealing with a legitimate medical condition and who has seen significant changes in his life because of it.
> 
> Like most other things, there's a case by case basis for everything. If the guy in the Velonews article is truly osteoporotic and truly significantly low in terms of hormone levels (for his age) there's plenty of reason to reexamine his story. Really, if the guy was wanting to cheat, why would he go through the process of applying for a TUE? If he's a guy who's just not feeling "up" to it, and uses that as an excuse to get on TRT for the purpose of cheating in racing, that's entirely different.


I am with rob on this one. I think if he has been properly diagnosed with a known medical condition (especially if the condition has been peer reviewed in a medical journal) it shouldn't be a problem to get a TUE. Yet I am not sure why USADA/WADA is refusing to budge on this one. Perhaps this is were a case by case basis is needed rather than a "zero tolerance policy"



love4himies said:


> Maybe they need two different "leagues" in the US. One for those going for/are pro status and another for amateurs which would have less stringent doping rules.


Totally with you on this one. I would say break it out at the Cat 2 and higher level.

Does USADA/WADA hold their own employees to the same strict standard they are forcing on athletes?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

My problem is the unstated conflation of "amateur" with "recreational". The two are not the same. Amateur merely means that you aren't getting paid to do it, whereas recreational implies a lack of seriousness or concern about the outcome--i.e., you're doing it mainly for fun and/or fitness. 

The guys I race against are amateurs, but they care very much who wins. At the state crit race a few weeks ago there was exactly 1 racer in the 75+ category; all he had to do to win the state championship was stay upright, but he finished in the lead peloton with a bunch of guys 25 years his junior. You could have told him he takes his racing way too seriously, but you might have wound up with a bloody nose for your trouble, too.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> The bigger point of the article seems entirely lost. This guy wants to do the right thing. He has a substantiated medical reason for the medication, which won't give him an unfair advantage over same-aged riders without his condition - the line about the medication returning his testosterone levels to average for his age in the story is important.


Agreed, but he could start taking more than the prescribed amount and get a non-fair advantage.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> Agreed, but he could start taking more than the prescribed amount and get a non-fair advantage.


It's also pretty easy to screw it up and trigger some unwanted side effects. Weight gain and bloat are not going to help anyone climb faster.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Life is short......RACE.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

As others mentioned- he tried to do the right thing. He was open with USADA about his use and reasons for using testosterone. I'm of the opinion that if he can provide the required documentation to show his levels were low for his age, and if his doctor is not one of those "youth replacement" quacks, he should be able to race.

If 5 Hour Energy is doping, then I'm the Lance Armstrong of the Quickie Mart. Wait, I think I raced on Afrin once... oh crap, call WADA.

I race unsanctioned races exclusively, because that's all that's available to me. We couldn't afford to test anyone. I'd much rather have a guy like this show up and race with us than a guy who intentionally dopes solely for performance enhancing purposes.

There are legitimate uses for these drugs, and some can have a real, positive impact on quality of life. The same can be said for racing.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Fireform said:


> My problem is the unstated conflation of "amateur" with "recreational". The two are not the same. Amateur merely means that you aren't getting paid to do it, whereas recreational implies a lack of seriousness or concern about the outcome--i.e., you're doing it mainly for fun and/or fitness.
> 
> The guys I race against are amateurs, but they care very much who wins. At the state crit race a few weeks ago there was exactly 1 racer in the 75+ category; all he had to do to win the state championship was stay upright, but he finished in the lead peloton with a bunch of guys 25 years his junior. You could have told him he takes his racing way too seriously, but you might have wound up with a bloody nose for your trouble, too.


Yeah they're recreational athletes who are taking their hobby way too seriously. You can find these folks on the start line of the local 5k or soccer pitch on Sunday afternoon. Doesn't change that what they are doing is basically a recreational hobby.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Yeah they're recreational athletes who are taking their hobby way too seriously. You can find these folks on the start line of the local 5k or soccer pitch on Sunday afternoon. Doesn't change that what they are doing is basically a recreational hobby.


This is the chatter from the back of the peloton.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

So does a recreational rider who competes at a national level occasionally but usually state level, dope by taking nurofen and No-Doze (caffeine) on endurance races ?

Similar to "finish" bottles that have become under scrutiny.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

ozzybmx said:


> So does a recreational rider who competes at a national level occasionally but usually state level, dope by taking nurofen and No-Doze (caffeine) on endurance races?


No-Doz (caffeine) and Nurofen (ibuprofen, with codeine in the Plus version) are approved for use by WADA. While they may be performance enhancing, they are not doping. 

For that matter, neither is beetroot juice, and I could not see any other reason for consuming that foul stuff besides a performance boost.

I'll be honest- I've *idly* considered doping myself- testosterone, HgH... the usual suspects. I did a little Google "research", a little reading here and there, some reflection, and decided it ran contrary to my goals for competitive cycling and life in general. Just doesn't add up for me, but I can understand how someone could be tempted at the professional levels of sport- especially when it's considered being a "professional" by your superiors and peers. Not that it makes it ethically correct, but I can understand the mindset. I think most athletes consider it at some point or another. Some discard the idea sooner than others, some go a little further down the bunny hole.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

Alaska Mike said:


> Some discard the idea sooner than others, some go a little further down the bunny hole.


Agreed. I've never bothered with either but i might give this beet juice a go.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Beet juice is the suck. No doubt about it.

I don't know any racers who don't get their caffeine pre race. It's just like the air in our tires.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

You guys are nuts. I love beets and beetroot juice. 

I eat beets right out of the can. Or I buy a bag of them at trader joes to take to races. 












Alaska Mike said:


> I'll be honest- I've *idly* considered doping myself- testosterone, HgH... the usual suspects. I did a little Google "research", a little reading here and there, some reflection, and decided it ran contrary to my goals for competitive cycling and life in general. Just doesn't add up for me, but I can understand how someone could be tempted at the professional levels of sport- especially when it's considered being a "professional" by your superiors and peers. Not that it makes it ethically correct, but I can understand the mindset. I think most athletes consider it at some point or another. Some discard the idea sooner than others, some go a little further down the bunny hole.


I'm under 35 so this isn't a big concern for me. But hgh does a pretty good job at smoothing out wrinkles and keeping an aging person looking younger. (I've never tried hgh or anything like it.) Then we have people who have gone all out with "fountain of youth" medicine like Sly Stallone at age 60...the man has found some ways to fend off aging for quite a while. 

Forget for a second the idiocy of grown men wearing lycra and racing on bicycles. If there are ways for me to live into my sixties without really feeling the effects of aging I will do it. 

Why not?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> You guys are nuts. I love beets and beetroot juice.
> 
> I eat beets right out of the can. Or I buy a bag of them at trader joes to take to races.
> 
> ...


Different palates. I choke down a ration of juice before a race, but I mean choke it down.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

On an anti-aging note, I have a friend who is pushing 50. We used to ride and lift together. The man takes very good care of himself. He also "supplements" with legally prescribed medication. He and I have both modeled for the same artist. This is a sculpture of my friend: 











Again, my buddy works very hard on his body. He counts calories and spends a fair amount of time in the gym. Yet he has Dr's help. He rides grand fondus but does not race bicycles. I see nothing wrong with his decisions.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Fireform said:


> Beet juice is the suck. No doubt about it.
> 
> I don't know any racers who don't get their caffeine pre race. It's just like the air in our tires.



Raced a full season in the Cat 1,2, Masters and track with no caffeine after I figured out it was contributing to my issues with tachycardia, its not required.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Tomahawk said:


> He's 60 years old - hang up the racing boots buddy.


I reject your age-ism and call you out on it. It's as pernicious as racism. What difference does anyone's birth date make as to whether it's "appropriate" to race a bike? Silliness.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Also: Anybody have the link to that gran fondo rider who was caught doping a couple years back? I remember BikeSnob having a great time with it. 

I've always said, if middle-aged guys will spend $10k on a bike, $5k on wheels, $300/month on coaching, who knows how much on travel and entry fees and random associated stuff... why is it such a stretch to imagine they'll spend $50 on a co-pay?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Anthony David. The link is in the thread.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I found the original Outside article  by Stuart Stevens to be much more enlightening.

Tinlin's wasn't completely horrible either.

Here's a pretty good overview with links.

The difference is that neither one was up-front with USADA or USAC about what they were doing, because neither one had a valid reason for using the substances beyond performance enhancement.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2013)

Creakyknees said:


> I reject your age-ism and call you out on it. It's as pernicious as racism. What difference does anyone's birth date make as to whether it's "appropriate" to race a bike? Silliness.




I agree. If a guy in later years feels like he has something left in the tank then he should just go for it. Being 66 I am an avid cyclist but over the last 50 years I have never been interested in racing myself. I have been interested in touring and photography and riding with friends and such. I have little interest in amateur racing and do not watch it or think about it. I do pay attention to professional racing and I think that all pro's are drugging it up. It's a contest between drug design engineers and drug testing requirements.

Really the only way to change that is to sanction the entire team if a single rider tests positive. So next TDF and Froome wins and the lowest rider on his team tests positive then they disqualify Froome and the team. It is fair since it's a team event.


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

Spectrum said:


> Article published in Velo News. What are your thoughts on this?
> Is it medicine or dope? A cat. 4 vs. the USADA - VeloNews.com


What not just test the top 5 of each class??? He isn't going to go from back of the pack to contender! Rules are the rules, but he should be able to race. Hmmm, think I'm going to start a Cyling Racing Company...no testing! Let the freak show begin!


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## crewdoglm (Jan 17, 2014)

Spectrum said:


> Article published in Velo News. What are your thoughts on this?
> Is it medicine or dope? A cat. 4 vs. the USADA - VeloNews.com


I was wondering when this exact situation would come up in Master's racing. The medication is fixing a medical condition that otherwise disadvantages him compared to peers with naturally normal "T." Here's the funny part: he should probably just keep quiet and do whatever he needs to do because the only way the dope cops get involved is if his Testosterone indicates excessively high on a test. Even that is not presumptive for "doping." If HGH is suspected, the ONLY way to definitively tell is to do an additional (and expensive as hell) test for the DNA signature of the soy plant used to make the Testosterone. Prior to this test coming online recently, HGH was undetectable even if the athlete's "T" was indicating 2 or 3 times above high normal.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

If he is doing drugs on the dope list, he shouldn't be allowed in the race. It is to dam bad he can't get it up, but if he can't he shouldn't be rac'in.


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## crewdoglm (Jan 17, 2014)

duriel said:


> If he is doing drugs on the dope list, he shouldn't be allowed in the race. It is to dam bad he can't get it up, but if he can't he shouldn't be rac'in.


 Dear college sophomore: If you didn't know, USA Cycling DOES in fact approve the use of banned substances on a case-by-case basis provided that a compelling medical condition predicates it's use. Athletes with medical conditions are not considered cheaters. For example there are asthma drugs which, apart from a waiver would be illegal. Are you suggesting that asthmatics should be barred from athletic competition? I was racing full-time 30 years ago when everybody did drugs and whining like a ***** was not OK. This guy is commendably, even staggeringly honest and he's not doing anything that gives him an unfair advantage. One of these days you may find yourself having a 50th birthday. When that happens I hope you're kicking ass like this dude is.


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

duriel said:


> If he is doing drugs on the dope list, he shouldn't be allowed in the race. It is to dam bad he can't get it up, but if he can't he shouldn't be rac'in.


That is a terrible thing to say. He has a medical condition. one that is very easily treated and has been done so for more than 70 years. His medical condition will become or was already debilitating and you want him to just deal with it?



deviousalex said:


> Agreed, but he could start taking more than the prescribed amount and get a non-fair advantage.


too much testosterone, by even a small amount can and will completely destroy endurance capacity. It is also easy to test blood levels. While androgel does clear the system much more quickly than other forms of testosterone, which allows it to be more easily abused (add a little extra in for recovery during stage races for example) it is not going to be beneficial to gradually keep putting on more muscle mass or continuing the impaired endurance side effect.

Another area of concern would be the fact that testosterone does stimulate red blood cell production. This may happen even at regular therapeutic doses. Again, this can easily be tested for and remedied (blood donations are a double win).


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## crewdoglm (Jan 17, 2014)

*Well said*



MarshallH1987 said:


> That is a terrible thing to say. He has a medical condition. one that is very easily treated and has been done so for more than 70 years. His medical condition will become or was already debilitating and you want him to just deal with it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree 100%. I can't believe the short-shortsightedness that exists in these forums. Low-T is also causes the loss of bone mass making him more prone to fractures . (I think. MD's feel free to chime in here.) Anyway as I indicated earlier unless he's in races where they test (Nationals, Worlds or other UCI elite events) nobody is ever going to know. There's a place in all this for integrity.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

crewdoglm said:


> Dear college sophomore: If you didn't know, USA Cycling DOES in fact approve the use of banned substances on a case-by-case basis provided that a compelling medical condition predicates it's use. Athletes with medical conditions are not considered cheaters. For example there are asthma drugs which, apart from a waiver would be illegal. Are you suggesting that asthmatics should be barred from athletic competition? I was racing full-time 30 years ago when everybody did drugs and whining like a ***** was not OK. This guy is commendably, even staggeringly honest and he's not doing anything that gives him an unfair advantage. One of these days you may find yourself having a 50th birthday. When that happens I hope you're kicking ass like this dude is.


TUEs are not handed out willy nilly, and in general are only granted for a very narrow range of substances on the prohibited list.

There was an earlier post which implied WADA approved use of some substances. WADA do no such thing, they only define what is prohibited.

Keep in mind that excessive training can also be a cause of lower testosterone levels, so it's easy to understand why such substances are likely going to remain prohibited for use by licensed racing cyclists (all competitive athletes) and TUEs not considered for this substance.


It is my view that if you require such exogenous medical assistance, then racing shouldn't be high on your list of priorities, looking after your health is, and so put the cue in the rack so to speak with respect to racing, at least until you return to a state of health where you can train and compete without the use of such substances. Ride for fitness/health reasons instead.


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## crewdoglm (Jan 17, 2014)

*Agreed*



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> TUEs are not handed out willy nilly, and in general are only granted for a very narrow range of substances on the prohibited list.
> 
> There was an earlier post which implied WADA approved use of some substances. WADA do no such thing, they only define what is prohibited.
> 
> ...


Indeed I'm sure a TUE is not easy and, in the case of exogenous testosterone it might be akin to changing the Constitution. My remarks were aimed mainly at the short-sighted indifference it takes to dismiss a guy who's clearly just making an honest effort. I might agree that racing is a questionable decision for him because of his health but not because Androgel or Axiron constitutes cheating for God's sake. I actually feel sorry for him because he didn't have the discernment to know he'd be criticized. I hope the guy takes whatever the doc says take and then goes out and kicks butt. Very unlikely that testing will trip him up anyway. The only test that definitively establishes "guilt" for HGH isn't even administered unless your T ratios in the urine suggest very high levels to begin with. (And it's probably expensive as hell because they're basically isolating a DNA-level remnant of the soy plant used to make the HGH.)


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> It is my view that if you require such exogenous medical assistance, then racing shouldn't be high on your list of priorities, looking after your health is, and so put the cue in the rack so to speak with respect to racing, at least until you return to a state of health where you can train and compete without the use of such substances. Ride for fitness/health reasons instead.


Would you also agree that diabetics needing insulin should be banned from racing? What about asthma? or an amputee? hermaphrodite? Thyroid? If you start preventing people from racing due to the fact that treatment for their condition could be abused then you'd have to apply it to every situation or you are discriminating against one particular disability.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

MarshallH1987 said:


> Would you also agree that diabetics needing insulin should be banned from racing? What about asthma? or an amputee? hermaphrodite? Thyroid? If you start preventing people from racing due to the fact that treatment for their condition could be abused then you'd have to apply it to every situation or you are discriminating against one particular disability.


The problem with your line of thinking is you are now assigning an individual's personal belief system to the rules of the sport, and everyone of course will have their own views. You just end up in a mindless circle of debate about what is/is not doping. 

Hence what I personally believe in each individual example isn't relevant.

And hence that's why it's much more sensible to simply accept that WADA draws the line in the sand for us, so that we need not concern ourselves with where that line is drawn. 

WADA defines doping. Not me, not you, and not anyone else on this forum. That keeps it nice and simple.

We may not personally agree in all cases where WADA draws the doping line, but hey, someone has to make the call, and the World Anti-Doping Agency is it. Else we'll just end up with non-harmonious set of rules based on a wide variety of interpretations of what should or should not be considered doping, and if that were the case well we may as well not bother.

There will obviously be grey areas, always will be, so my view remains that it is WADA that draws the doping line, and we should expect that those who choose to compete abide by those rules.

If WADA deem it sensible to augment the rules to deal with grey areas (which they have and will continue to do with some substances via their review process), then that may in future rule in or out some people from racing who for legitimate health reasons require the use prohibited substances.

As to some of the examples you gave:

I am an amputee and use a prosthetic cycling leg. There are some events I am not permitted to race under UCI rules (but that's not a WADA issue) and there are also UCI rules concerning the nature of prosthetics amputees can use. I personally think the UCI event restriction rule is silly, but that's the rule, so I don't enter those events.

Treatment for many of those things you mentioned is possible without resort to prohibited substances (obviously not all). A hermaphrodite would generally be an issue for the sports administrators, not WADA. Non prohibited alternatives and the TUE system is in place for asthmatics.

As for diabetics, well that is something well documented by WADA (same for asthmatics) and is subject to proper evaluation for TUE and/or alternative non prohibited treatment:
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/S...edical-info-Diabetes-Mellitus-2.0-2012-EN.pdf


More people should familiarise themselves with the WADA code and other relevant information available on their site with respect to such things.


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## crewdoglm (Jan 17, 2014)

*The letter vs the intent*



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> The problem with your line of thinking is you are now assigning an individual's personal belief system to the rules of the sport, and everyone of course will have their own views. You just end up in a mindless circle of debate about what is/is not doping.
> 
> Hence what I personally believe in each individual example isn't relevant.
> 
> ...


Good observation as to personal beliefs. The intent behind all the anti-doping rules is safety and and a level playing field. People love to cling to the letter of the law without allowing the light of reason to shine in even the tiniest of holes. (20 years in the military is ironclad proof of that believe me.) The interesting thing about this guy is: his medical disorder puts him at disadvantage - NOT on a level playing field with his peers. (And in that way like an amputee BTW.) Correcting the effect of HIS disorder however, is thorny as it involves the premier drug of "cheaters." THAT is his difficulty - the fact of the drug itself and recent incidents causing knee-jerk legalism.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Fireform said:


> This is the chatter from the back of the peloton.


haha this thread is funny. You realize we are talking about 3s and 4s, right? You can pretty much race your way into shape and get a decent finish while still thinking about it as a hobby.

Perhaps you are doing it wrong?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

crewdoglm said:


> Good observation as to personal beliefs. The intent behind all the anti-doping rules is safety and and a level playing field. People love to cling to the letter of the law without allowing the light of reason to shine in even the tiniest of holes. (20 years in the military is ironclad proof of that believe me.) The interesting thing about this guy is: his medical disorder puts him at disadvantage - NOT on a level playing field with his peers. (And in that way like an amputee BTW.) Correcting the effect of HIS disorder however, is thorny as it involves the premier drug of "cheaters." THAT is his difficulty - the fact of the drug itself and recent incidents causing knee-jerk legalism.


While I'm being facetious, as someone elsewhere said, if a young guy good at throwing baskets was a bit short to make it in the NBA, his sub-height condition is a problem so some extra growth hormone with his cornflakes is OK, right?


A level playing field is not about levelling things with respect to ability/morphology/health etc, _it's about everyone playing by the same rules_.

The fact that someone has a medical condition / disability etc (or simply don't have the genetically blessed gift required) that means they are less able to compete at the highest level does not mean they are entitled to use prohibited substances so that they can compete. 

If they are less able without such prohibited treatment but still want to compete, then do so in a lower grade/category, or find an alternative competitive outlet. Else if they really must use prohibited substance, then don't race.


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> While I'm being facetious, as someone elsewhere said, if a young guy good at throwing baskets was a bit short to make it in the NBA, his sub-height condition is a problem so some extra growth hormone with his cornflakes is OK, right?
> 
> 
> A level playing field is not about levelling things with respect to ability/morphology/health etc, _it's about everyone playing by the same rules_.
> ...


The big thing is, most people are abusing LT! Do you really think Vitor Belfort is LOW T??? Has nipples (now)? Has morphed his body in just a very short time? LT is a natural phenomenon that likely HELPS us age, not hurts. The LT can ward of cancers. If you pump your Test levels to that of a 20 yo (and then some) this could be unheathly, dangerous, and def Unfair. Just my opinion, but likely 90% of LT users are in little to no need. 

Quite frankly, I really don't care if the do take it...but don't tell me that you have a true med condition when you just like the way it makes you feel. Yeah, getting old sucks...trust me. Take some Test if you feel better, what does my liberatarian ass care?! But don't tell me that it is a 'condition'. It IS a condition...of aging!!!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

crewdoglm said:


> his medical disorder puts him at disadvantage - NOT on a level playing field with his peers. (And in that way like an amputee BTW.) Correcting the effect of HIS disorder however, is thorny as it involves the premier drug of "cheaters." THAT is his difficulty - the fact of the drug itself and recent incidents causing knee-jerk legalism.


Training lowers my Hct, putting me at a disadvantage to my peers. I am going to take EPO to "Level the playing field". My addiction to donuts is not something I can control. 

The vast majority of doctors selling this stuff are quacks looking for $$$. Work out hard for 3 days then go get tested....oh, my T levels are low that means it is OK for me to cheat!


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Training lowers my Hct, putting me at a disadvantage to my peers. I am going to take EPO to "Level the playing field". My addiction to donuts is not something I can control.
> 
> The vast majority of doctors selling this stuff are quacks looking for $$$. Work out hard for 3 days then go get tested....oh, my T levels are low that means it is OK for me to cheat!


Oh, they're not "quacks" doc...but they ARE looking for $$$. A "condition" doesn't mean you have an 'illness'. The bodies natural state is to start dropping the production of testosterone. Likely so your body doesn't have effects of testosterone related problems. It's the bodies physiology likely warding off the negative effects of Test.

Yeah, side effect, you aren't as fast on your cycle (er, bicycle) as you once were. Don't quote me (lol) but I don't think the AMA has a protocol even set up for LT!


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Hmm, is she doping? 

"All her stay young secrets" 
;-)


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## skitorski (Dec 4, 2012)

Chatter from the back of the peolton. That's funny.

Most of us miss the most important part of the article. It's right up there at the top. All the rest is shizaziz.



> “When I get out on my bike, I don’t have a mortgage payment. I don’t have bills. I don’t have career worries. It’s that kind of freeing — and I think I’m not really a religious person at all — but I think it’s the most spiritual thing that I do,” Hammond said.
> 
> “In fact, I remember the first time I ever rode up [Golden’s] Lookout Mountain without stopping. I’m sure it was painfully slow, but it was one of the greatest memories that I ever had.”


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

love4himies said:


> Why should he? Just because he's "old"? It's a sport to him and he loves it. Live is too short to have to give up something you are still able to do, but not allowed to because of a prescription.


Without the medication he is not able to do it, just like when a formerly doped winner comes back without his treatments and is no longer able to win. There's that blurry line again



skitorski said:


> .
> 
> Most of us miss the most important part of the article. It's right up there at the top. All the rest is shizaziz.


The part you quote isn't really relevant. If he continues the medication, he is perfectly free to do what he describes, just not in a sanctioned race. He's just going to have to adjust his outlet. He'll stay on the medication and hopefully he'll continue to enjoy cycling, even if he's not allowed to race.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

tom_h said:


> "All her stay young secrets"
> ;-)


It's called photoshop. Heard you don't need a prescription for it and can get it at any local computer software store.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

love4himies said:


> It's called photoshop. Heard you don't need a prescription for it and can get it at any local computer software store.


Whaaaat?! No!!!!
;-)


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

He should be allowed to race in the UNTESTED races. Let the freak show begin! WHooooYA



davidka said:


> Without the medication he is not able to do it, just like when a formerly doped winner comes back without his treatments and is no longer able to win. There's that blurry line again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## skitorski (Dec 4, 2012)

davidka said:


> The part you quote isn't really relevant. If he continues the medication, he is perfectly free to do what he describes, just not in a sanctioned race. He's just going to have to adjust his outlet. He'll stay on the medication and hopefully he'll continue to enjoy cycling, even if he's not allowed to race.


No, the article is irrelevant. The author says right up front what's important. The rest, and all the ensuing arguing is a hack job.

You may continue now. No one will change any one's mind.

Have some cream kitty


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Training lowers my Hct, putting me at a disadvantage to my peers. I am going to take EPO to "Level the playing field". My addiction to donuts is not something I can control.
> 
> The vast majority of doctors selling this stuff are quacks looking for $$$. Work out hard for 3 days then go get tested....oh, my T levels are low that means it is OK for me to cheat!


Agree 100%.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

love4himies said:


> It's called photoshop. Heard you don't need a prescription for it and can get it at any local computer software store.


Personal trainers and hitting the genetic lottery helps too.


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