# Future of ABG



## RJHarary (Nov 8, 2007)

Does anybody know how ABG is doing financially? I Have an 01 Extralight and an 06 Tuscany (I am an interstate commuter and have to have a bike in the burbs and in the city) and I have never been happier with the quality of a bike as I have with the ABG bikes. it seems though that they havent updated their site for 08 yet and many shops have dropped them. I hope this is my imagination because nobody in my opinion makes a more tried and true Ti bike (unless you have 12 grand for a Seven Elium). Please note that my post contains opinion and not fact before the Litespeed haters bash my post.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

Litespeed has had financial issues in the past. They have had many long term good employees bail in the past year too. Somehow they will survive provided they listen to what the buying public is saying and produces the products their customers want. Their 2008 line came around with longer head tubes on certain models which to me is a positive sign. There was nothing in the 2007 line up that I couldn't use without way too many spacers which would have meant no sale to me. There are bike frames I now find acceptable in the 2008 line although I still feel the pricing is a little more than I would pay. It used to be great the yearend blowouts just like the one Bicycledoctor in the ads here has going on. Unfortunately they are blowing out 2007 which is unusable for me. One more year and if the price is right I may add a Siena to the stable.


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

RJHarary said:


> Does anybody know how ABG is doing financially? I Have an 01 Extralight and an 06 Tuscany (I am an interstate commuter and have to have a bike in the burbs and in the city) and I have never been happier with the quality of a bike as I have with the ABG bikes. it seems though that they havent updated their site for 08 yet and many shops have dropped them. I hope this is my imagination because nobody in my opinion makes a more tried and true Ti bike (unless you have 12 grand for a Seven Elium). Please note that my post contains opinion and not fact before the Litespeed haters bash my post.



Did the dealers drop them or did they drop the dealers? Perhaps a bit of both. There were quite a large amount of "dealers" that had no Litespeed product and hadn't for quite some time. For '08 the company did decide to drop dealers who didn't stock any product. To be listed on the site you have to meet some criteria like actually having bikes. If you didn't your name was dropped from the site. 

The Litespeed site actually has been updated. It reflects all of the new '08 product like the Icon, CX, and Sportive.


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## rslorzvt (Nov 14, 2007)

I have talked to several dealers who dropped ABG. The reasons were - the "dumping" of bikes through internet retailers, warranty issues, overall customer service (to the dealer), etc...the pricing ("dumping") has been a problem for years according to several shop owners. 
Some *opinion* from "inside' the company - they are working through the integration of the different brands...going through a difficult time and will continue to evolve. 
Hopefully they will get it figured out.
Litespeed updated site - Merlin not


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## Fastgaijin (Aug 24, 2005)

*There is a pulse...*

I'm a proud owner of a fantastic Merlin and I have been hoping for some time now to see some concrete signs of a turnaround at ABG. The Merlin website has been lagging behind the power curve for a couple years now, that's for sure, but ABG did manage to get a few full-page magazine ads out there for LS and M. I also recall news of new financial backing arriving not too long ago, as well as lots of promising talk in this forum by 'Herbert K', I believe -- someone who appeared to be an insider of sorts. There is, it appears, still a pulse at ABG. 

I think ABG has a big challenge ahead of them if they hope to survive. Carbon dominates the market today, and there are many smaller, cooler companies who also do great things with titanium. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I wish ABG, and Merlin particularly, all the best for 2008. :thumbsup:


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

I have yet to find a carbon bike I like more than my Litespeed, Merlin, and Seven. If they go belly up, I'm stocking up on Litespeed and Merlin frames so that the rest of my life I can ride Ti.


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## Fastgaijin (Aug 24, 2005)

Agreed. I enjoy riding any bike, but every time I ride my Merlin I smile.


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## RJHarary (Nov 8, 2007)

Some very nice answers, keep em coming!!! I Rode my Merlin 4 times in the last 5 days and I am sad to say I may have to sell my new 06 litespeed. The Merlin while not as stiff (its an 01 extralight) is amazing to ride, I'd calll it a dream ride. And it keeps up with the carbon guys just fine.


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## LiteSpeeder (Jan 28, 2004)

Despite my forum name, I haven’t owned a Litespeed in many years. I owned a Tuscany, a Vortex and a Siena at one time but no longer. I’m not sure that ABG can survive in the current market. Their frames are as expensive as or more expensive than their competition and the competition is fierce in the Ti market. In 2004, I purchased a Moots Vamoots SL 6/4 frame which at the time retailed for less than the Vortex or the Ultimate. Yet, it was stiffer in the drivetrain, built much better, rode smoother and was just an overall much better frame than the Vortex that I had.

You can compare Litespeed frames to any other manufacturer and they just come up short. Moots, Seven, Independent Fabrication, Strong, Serotta, Spectrum and others out there are all building better custom Ti frame at cheaper prices when compared to the Archon prices. It’s really basic economics. I don’t know how ABG is staying in business.

I do understand that a great deal of effort goes into building a Litespeed. There is a great deal of tube manipulation and cold forging. But, is the final product superior to others such as Seven Axiom or Vamoots? The answer is NO and that’s the problem. Just because you radically shape the tubes doesn’t mean that you end up with a better frame. This concept that Litespeed has of rolling 6/4 Ti sheets and welding the seam really doesn’t add anything. They can start out with seamless tubes and butt the tubes and shape them to get the same or better results. Welding rolled sheets of 6/4 Ti is IMO not adding anything to the quality of the frame.

The prices are another thing. The Archon is over 4K and for what - a welded roll of a 6/4 sheet of Ti without custom. Custom is $500 more and the quality control is suspect. I wish ABG well but I work in finance and I just do not see how they can continue offering those high prices for such frames. There are just too many better options out there.

:blush2:


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

LiteSpeeder said:


> Despite my forum name, I haven’t owned a Litespeed in many years. I owned a Tuscany, a Vortex and a Siena at one time but no longer. I’m not sure that ABG can survive in the current market. Their frames are as expensive as or more expensive than their competition and the competition is fierce in the Ti market. In 2004, I purchased a Moots Vamoots SL 6/4 frame which at the time retailed for less than the Vortex or the Ultimate. Yet, it was stiffer in the drivetrain, built much better, rode smoother and was just an overall much better frame than the Vortex that I had.
> 
> You can compare Litespeed frames to any other manufacturer and they just come up short. Moots, Seven, Independent Fabrication, Strong, Serotta, Spectrum and others out there are all building better custom Ti frame at cheaper prices when compared to the Archon prices. It’s really basic economics. I don’t know how ABG is staying in business.
> 
> ...


Out of curiousity have you ridden an Archon? I ask becuase the bike only has one 6/4 tube (top tube). The Archon is stiffer in the bb than a Scott CR1 and many other much vaunted carbon bikes. Much stiffer than past models like a Vortex. 

Spectrum Ti bikes are also made in the ABG custom shop fyi.


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## LiteSpeeder (Jan 28, 2004)

teoteoteo said:


> Out of curiousity have you ridden an Archon? I ask becuase the bike only has one 6/4 tube (top tube). The Archon is stiffer in the bb than a Scott CR1 and many other much vaunted carbon bikes. Much stiffer than past models like a Vortex.
> 
> Spectrum Ti bikes are also made in the ABG custom shop fyi.




I have never ridden an Archon but I hear it’s a real winner. There aren’t that many around and very few if any shops actually have Archons lying around for test rides. Why not? Because, LBSs are reluctant to carry the LiteSpeed brand due to internet dumping. Let me ask you all two questions. First, did you purchase you last LiteSpeed over the internet? Second, when was the last time that you actually test drove a LiteSpeed at your local LBS? These days, most anyone in the market for a LiteSpeed doesn’t have the option of test riding the bike at their local LBS because their local LBS doesn’t carry the brand. There’s something wrong with that scenario. Seven years ago, many LBSs carried the brand and now that’s almost all gone.

The Archon may be a winner. But for the overwhelming majority of us, we would need to purchase it without ever test riding the frame. And there aren’t too many people out there who would purchase a $4500 frame without ever test riding it regardless of whether it’s a winner or not. Like I said, I wish LiteSpeed well but as every year goes by, they seem to get further and further behind the power curve when it comes to Ti frames.


And yes, I am well aware that Spectrum Ti frames are "welded" by "Merlin" welders but they are designed and finished elsewhere by Tom Kellog. Welding frames for another frame builders is not going to help ABG stay alive.

:blush2:


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

LiteSpeeder said:


> There aren’t that many around and very few if any shops actually have Archons lying around for test rides. Let me ask you all two questions. First, did you purchase you last LiteSpeed over the internet? Second, when was the last time that you actually test drove a LiteSpeed at your local LBS?
> 
> The Archon may be a winner. But for the overwhelming majority of us, we would need to purchase it without ever test riding the frame. And there aren’t too many people out there who would purchase a $4500 frame without ever test riding it regardless of whether it’s a winner or not. Like I said, I wish LiteSpeed well but as every year goes by, they seem to get further and further behind the power curve when it comes to Ti frames.
> 
> ...


Maybe it varies by region, but there are several in Texas with Archons in stock. 

No, not an online purchase.

Finished=painted. 

Tom also designs the Merlins.


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## goldsbar (Apr 24, 2002)

My LBS dropped Litespeed a few years ago due to lack of market demand. Everyone shifted their interest to carbon. They sell and stock a lot of high end product and are located in an affluent town so they certainly had the right demographics.

I've mentioned this before and someone always makes a nasty remark. So let me say - I really don't care, I'm just reporting the news.


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