# BB Ceramic, Shimano upgrade?



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

The external BB on my Cervelo is getting a bit old and worn, so thought about upgrading it to Ceramic BB..IF there is one available?
Does any one know if there is one? and if so, perhaps if you could please recommend a brand to replace the existing.
I saw in one claim about ceramic bearings that it was 9 times easier to spin? quite a claim? i would settle for "noticeably"..and presumably they last longer?


----------



## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/p...ceramic-hybrid-bottom-bracket-9817.314.0.html


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Gervase said:


> I saw in one claim about ceramic bearings that it was 9 times easier to spin? quite a claim? i would settle for "noticeably"..and presumably they last longer?


9 times 0 is 0. It's not like there is any thing about BB bearings holding back your pedal stroke to begin with.

do some googling. Ceramic is pretty much a farce when it some to bike part bearings. All you git is a higher price tag.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Jay Strongbow said:


> 9 times 0 is 0. It's not like there is any thing about BB bearings holding back your pedal stroke to begin with.
> 
> do some googling. Ceramic is pretty much a farce when it some to bike part bearings. All you git is a higher price tag.


Agreed. Ceramic is not an upgrade by any means. Hard to beat a DA or Ultegra BB. Want bling? Get a King.


----------



## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

The only upgrade that makes any difference in this discussion is the price.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Ceramic bearings MUST be better, otherwise...why would a manufacturer go to the trouble of making one, when you have a huge task of setting up machinery to produce said bearings, production runs, let alone design, marketing, packaging etc.
I do not accept that they are NOT better, it's just an argument as to how much better they are.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Brucew...thanks for the link.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Ok, thanks to Brucew for some "positive" commenting, I found this, for those, like me who want some "real" information.
Review of Ceramic Bottom Brackets - Competitive Cyclist


----------



## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Yes, you need to buy ceramic. Even seek out hub bearings if you can because that's a key location of friction and you don't want those to blow. They are so much better than their inferior - perhaps primitive - steel ball counterparts.

I also would advise ceramic pulleys. Not only to they cut friction down, but they're more resistant to the lateral forces provoked when shifting (since the RD cage moves). It just all adds up (including the decrease in weight) to improving overall riding performance. Headset bearings are little too pricey but they improve the life of the fork's steerer tube because the don't deform under impact as easily. 

Worth every penny. They're also incredible in the rain.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Ventruck, thanks..just been googling, they look like the performance upgrade alright. 
Can you recommend a good brand? and thanks for the tip about the jockey wheels, as i know they must drag a bit of performance just by the way the chain routes around them.
Thanks...


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> Ok, thanks to Brucew for some "positive" commenting, I found this, for those, like me who want some "real" information.
> Review of Ceramic Bottom Brackets - Competitive Cyclist


holy crap, while you're at it, i've got a nice bridge to sell you. you might be the most gullible person on this forum.


----------



## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

Gervase said:


> The external BB on my Cervelo is getting a bit old and worn, so thought about upgrading it to Ceramic BB..IF there is one available?
> Does any one know if there is one? and if so, perhaps if you could please recommend a brand to replace the existing.
> I saw in one claim about ceramic bearings that it was 9 times easier to spin? quite a claim? i would settle for "noticeably"..and presumably they last longer?


I have Record hubs with ceramic bearings in both bikes. I can report that I can roll downhill faster and farther with the ceramic BBs. 

I have ceramic BB on my Campy bottom brackets and on the jockey pulleys for both bikes. I cannot quantify the actual performance improvement but I can report that pedaling feels easier and smoother. 

You have to decide if this is a worthwhile upgrade for your particular situation.


----------



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

There is sure an improvement, as noted by bottechia_eja, I have the ceramic BB and rear derailer pulleys on the SR11.

It indeed spins easier and nicer that R11. Seems effortless to accelerate when you start from 0km in comparison.

Now when the bike is already moving I don't feel any difference.

Probably they make me 0.0003% faster though


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Yes...I guess you could lump me in with the people who, funded the production of thousands of units of ceramic bottom brackets, invested probably hundreds of thousands of dollars producing ceramic balls which are apparently more round than any similar steel ball bearing, I mean totally gullible backing the idea that a ball bearing that is more round, resists temperature extremes better is harder & supposed to last longer as a result.. Yes then lump me in with those people.


----------



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I just got ceramic bearings after destroying my old set due to water damage. Eh! It feels smooth because it is new and not rusted.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> Yes...I guess you could lump me in with the people who, funded the production of thousands of units of ceramic bottom brackets, invested probably hundreds of thousands of dollars producing ceramic balls which are apparently more round than any similar steel ball bearing, I mean totally gullible backing the idea that a ball bearing that is more round, resists temperature extremes better is harder & supposed to last longer as a result.. Yes then lump me in with those people.


tell about 'extreme' temperatures that are encountered while you're riding your bike. bonus points if you exceed 50,000rpm for anything that spins. 
the difference between normal high quality steel balls and ceramic balls on a bicycle is so tiny it's funny. if you took 75% of the grease out of standard steel ball cartridge bearing, and put on the same seals as the ceramic cartridges use, they'd feel the same. ceramic bearings are designed for temperatures and rpm ranges so far above what you'd see on a bicycle it's ridiculous. anyone that claims to be faster, roll farther, or ride the same speed w/ less effort is just trying to justify the large wads of cash they spent on these bearings.


----------



## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> tell about 'extreme' temperatures that are encountered while you're riding your bike. bonus points if you exceed 50,000rpm for anything that spins.
> the difference between normal high quality steel balls and ceramic balls on a bicycle is so tiny it's funny. if you took 75% of the grease out of standard steel ball cartridge bearing, and put on the same seals as the ceramic cartridges use, they'd feel the same. ceramic bearings are designed for temperatures and rpm ranges so far above what you'd see on a bicycle it's ridiculous. anyone that claims to be faster, roll farther, or ride the same speed w/ less effort is just trying to justify the large wads of cash they spent on these bearings.


I roll farther and faster after fitting my Record hubs (on two different bikes) with Campy ceramic bearings.

And pedaling effort, from a stand still, is smoother with ceramic bottom bracket bearings and ceramic jockey pulley bearings.

If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem not mine. Enjoy the ride! :thumbsup:


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

bottecchia_eja said:


> I roll farther and faster after fitting my Record hubs (on two different bikes) with Campy ceramic bearings.
> 
> And pedaling effort, from a stand still, is smoother with ceramic bottom bracket bearings and ceramic jockey pulley bearings.
> 
> If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem not mine. Enjoy the ride! :thumbsup:


no...i don't believe it. i have ceramic bearings on my track bike. full ceramic in the front hub and hybrids in the BB and rear hub. i normally only do sprint events, so i'm very aware of any time gains or losses i might see. on the track bike dirt is obviously not a factor, and the durability of the bearings is fine because they don't get much use. the difference in 200m times and kilo times before and after putting the ceramic bearings (which i never would have paid for, but i have a friend that works at 'a bearing distributor', so they were free) in was basically zero. differences in temperature/humidity/wind make it impossible to tell. despite my feelings about them not being any better than high quality steel bearings, maybe they give me a minute psychological boost...
BUT, this is ROAD bike review. i'd never bother installing them on a road bike and hope for 'extra' speed. it just won't happen. there is too much rolling resistance in tires and wind resistance in bodies and equipment for any bearing magic to overcome. seriously...ceramic derailleur pulleys? do you actually believe you can feel a minute difference in a part of your drivetrain that accounts for less than 1% of overall drag to begin with? we're talking a fraction of a percent of difference here...


----------



## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

LikeI wrote, they work for me and they also work for others. I couldn't care less what your opinion is. 

Enjoy the ride and stop worrying about what gear works or does not work fo others. 

Ciao!


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Gervase said:


> Ceramic bearings MUST be better, otherwise...*why would a manufacturer go to the trouble of making one*, when you have a huge task of setting up machinery to produce said bearings, production runs, let alone design, marketing, packaging etc.
> I do not accept that they are NOT better, it's just an argument as to how much better they are.


That's easy. Because they figure they can sucker people into paying a lot of money for them.


----------



## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> tell about 'extreme' temperatures that are encountered while you're riding your bike. bonus points if you exceed 50,000rpm for anything that spins.
> the difference between normal high quality steel balls and ceramic balls on a bicycle is so tiny it's funny. if you took 75% of the grease out of standard steel ball cartridge bearing, and put on the same seals as the ceramic cartridges use, they'd feel the same. ceramic bearings are designed for temperatures and rpm ranges so far above what you'd see on a bicycle it's ridiculous. anyone that claims to be faster, roll farther, or ride the same speed w/ less effort is just trying to justify the large wads of cash they spent on these bearings.


You mean you don't come across flame throwers on your daily commute?


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> That's easy. Because they figure they can sucker people into paying a lot of money for them.


^^^^ This. Money makes the world go round, not bearings.


----------



## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

Gervase said:


> Ceramic bearings MUST be better, otherwise...why would a manufacturer go to the trouble of making one, when you have a huge task of setting up machinery to produce said bearings, production runs, let alone design, marketing, packaging etc.
> I do not accept that they are NOT better, it's just an argument as to how much better they are.


That may be the funniest post I've ever read on RBR.  





Oh wait....you were serious. :mad2:


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

bottecchia_eja said:


> LikeI wrote, they work for me and they also work for others. *I couldn't care less what your opinion is*.
> 
> Enjoy the ride and stop worrying about what gear works or does not work fo others.
> 
> Ciao!


He's not giving an 'opinion'. He's stating scientific facts.


----------



## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

This is the funniest thread in a long time. Apart from cxwrench, I cannot determine who is being serious and who is being sarcastic.

My opinion: if you have extra money that you have to get rid of, and there is absolutely nothing else you need to spend it on, and if there are no worthwhile charitable contributions you could donate to then by all means GET THE CERAMIC BEARINGS! They will change your life.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Aren't they worth the money if they make you feel faster and more confident on the road??

There is something to be said for the psychological side.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Gervase said:


> resists temperature extremes


Is overheating in the bottom bracket really a problem?

Anything CC says needs to be viewed with mucho scepticism. Remember, they are in business to make money, they are not a charitable eductional organisation. Note this line from the last paragraph in their blurb about ceramics: "installing a set may just be the placebo you need".


----------



## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> He's not giving an 'opinion'. He's stating scientific facts.


Is that so? Well I guess I missed the references to peer-reviewed articles establishing that ceramic bb don't work. I guess that I was too busy rolling downhill...

one writer here hit the nail on the head...if you got the money and it makes you feel good, then spend it. In our society we are free to spend whatever money the government let's keep in the pursuit of happiness (or bike Nirvana).

Good grief, what a bunch of wet blankets!


----------



## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

bottecchia_eja said:


> Is that so? Well I guess I missed the references to peer-reviewed articles establishing that ceramic bb don't work. I guess that I was too busy rolling downhill...
> 
> one writer here hit the nail on the head...if you got the money and it makes you feel good, then spend it. In our society we are free to spend whatever money the government let's keep in the pursuit of happiness (or bike Nirvana).
> 
> Good grief, what a bunch of wet blankets!


Rolling faster downhill attributed to ceramic bearings? :thumbsup:


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> Aren't they worth the money if they make you feel faster and more confident on the road??
> 
> There is something to be said for the psychological side.


and i did mention that in my post...


----------



## Drone 5200 (Mar 3, 2003)

I replaced a standard 7800 BB with the Enduro Zeros. It's easy to observe how much smoother they are by simply spinning the cranks with no chain. They go and go and go and don't want to stop. Very low friction. Does it matter in a real life on-the-road performance perspective? of course not. I also have them in the hubs of my xxx-lites and its the same thing for spinning. I think if you pulled the trigger on some you would like them. I like mine.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Ceramic bearings from the little amount of research i have done on the subject are much more easily made more truly round, & to the exact dimensions. Just these facts alone, means that they will be smoother in the rolling action, as has been claimed. it's apparently alot easier to make the ceramic bearings more "true"...the maths of 9x0=0 is just ...flawed maths. Not taking into account that the 0 started with, actually has more value than that. Maybe that is a wildly generated claim? i won't try and support that, but their is definite support with suppliers to regard that Ceramic bearings are more efficient.
So all i wanted to know was a good reputable brand. I think to pass these bearings off as "gimmicky" is to ignore the industry that has built them. NO one would invest vast quantities of time, and money, IF their was no real advantage, or it was minimal, it just does not make sense, as you would end up with a product that becomes ridiculed and will not sell. Reviews say otherwise, but which BB to go for?
I understand if "we" the average rider can not detect a difference, but that does not mean that there is NOT one. How much? well that is debateable, but so far the reports show that there IS a difference. I can not detect a difference in an ultegra shifter to a Dura Ace shifter, but I concede that the Dura Ace must or should be better, but not being able to detect...well I don't hear people debunking the difference. So just because it's hard to tell....well that argument will rage on i guess.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Will a ceramic BB stop me pedaling squares when I'm past my limit?


----------



## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

This is your money to spend as you please. :thumbsup:


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Drone 5200 said:


> I replaced a standard 7800 BB with the Enduro Zeros. It's easy to observe how much smoother they are by simply spinning the cranks with no chain. They go and go and go and don't want to stop. Very low friction.


The only thing that tells you is that your ceramics have either worse seals, lower viscosity grease, or both. It tells you nothing about what they are like loaded. Personally I would rather have good seals on my BB.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

the evidence is mounting that Ceramic Bearings are indeed superior.

Wiggle | FSA Ceramic Bearing Jockey Wheels Rear Derailleurs


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Education beat's ignorance.
enduro template


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> the evidence is mounting that Ceramic Bearings are indeed superior.
> 
> Wiggle | FSA Ceramic Bearing Jockey Wheels Rear Derailleurs


what on that page can be construed as 'evidence'? did you even read the one review on that site? they reviewer said 
""_I think that ceramic bearings are for the most part an unjustified marginal gain unless that gain is enough to make the difference between winning a major race and not which is unlikely even for the very select few and of no consequence to the vast majority. And they don't even win as bike jewellery because you can't see them. "
_for chrissakes, it's a place that sells bike parts! and derailleur pulleys account for what percentage of drivetain friction? how about a fraction of a percent, at most. so if you reduce that by another fraction, does it actually get you any measurable performance gain? no. they may run smoothly longer than regular bushings, but will they even last measurably longer than steel bearings? maybe. 
you've obviously convinced yourself they're worth it, so have at it. we'll be over here in the corner, snickering. and wishing we were the guys that sold them to you.


----------



## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Gervase said:


> Ventruck, thanks..just been googling, they look like the performance upgrade alright.
> Can you recommend a good brand? and thanks for the tip about the jockey wheels, as i know they must drag a bit of performance just by the way the chain routes around them.
> Thanks...


Ceramic Speed. They're like the Monster Cables of bearings: the best of the best, and you're in denial if you settle for less.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

"we'll be over here in the corner, snickering. and wishing we were the guys that sold them to you."
Monkey wrench..your one of life's "put downer's"..you have to BE right..
Hey...I am just presenting some evidence
What are you presenting, other than sarcasm?


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Benefits - CeramicSpeed
VENTRUCK....thanks Dude..


----------



## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Gervase said:


> Education beat's ignorance.


Sometimes it's just too easy.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Gervase said:


> the evidence is mounting that Ceramic Bearings are indeed superior.
> 
> Wiggle | FSA Ceramic Bearing Jockey Wheels Rear Derailleurs


Salesmen never lie. :thumbsup:


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

I find it interesting that so far, all of your 'evidence' has been sales material. From ceramic-bearing sellers.

I used to have a post here that linked to a white paper from one of the major manufacturers of the balls used. It went into great detail showing exactly how ceramic bearings were 'better.' Unfortunately, that company sold that part of its business, and the new company didn't maintain the link.

But, to the facts it presented...

You talk about the tolerances / roundness. Fair enough, but it's a bit of a misnomer. They can make steel balls that round, too - but they don't bother, because for the purposes intended, round enough is round enough.

You may not understand the meaning of these numbers, but between high quality steel bearings and the quality of hybrid ceramic used in our applications, that difference is the difference between the mirror polish on a steel ball, and the 'deep shine' polish on a ceramic one. It doesn't matter to the friction of the bearing at 90 rpm at all.

Where it does come into play is at much higher speeds - 20,000 RPM or so. At that point, the minor differences begin to matter. The higher weight and ductility of the steel balls (they are spinning at 100,000 or more RPM at this point) actually starts to make the ball start to deform itself, making it fit tighter in the races. And so it starts to 'skid' rather than roll, and so the extra 'roughness' (if you can call it that) makes it drag a bit more. Meanwhile, the lighter, stiffer balls don't deform or skid, so continue to perform just the same as they both did at lower speeds.

So, they are lower drag - at speeds we never approach. At 'normal' speeds, there is no difference. None. 

Meanwhile, there are drawbacks. Because the ceramics are somewhat more brittle, we can't use full ceramic bearings. Instead, we use hybrids - ceramic balls in steel races. If we didn't, point loads (like hitting a pothole) would quickly shatter the races.

Well enough - but there's still a problem. Because the balls are so much harder, these sorts of loads can cause them to dent the races when those big loads hit. Under the same conditions with an all-steel bearing, both components simply flex a little and return to normal, no harm done. It's a situation of the wrong part for the application. 

A lot is made about the 'spin it in a workstand' difference. It's there, but it's a tiny amount, and again, comes at a cost. Because of the hardness of the balls, any little bit of grit will be pummelled into the races, roughening them and effectively destroying the bearing over time. To combat this (and to help minimize the drag in their intended applications and speed) these bearings are meant to be lubricated with oils, and kept as 'wet' bearings - with lube environmentally provided by the machinery they are in. They simply aren't designed to be pumped full of grease and sealed up tight like we do with our traditional bearings, so they aren't. That minor difference in spin is due to the difference in seals and grease. 

But here's the thing. Since they aren't meant to be here, they don't have suitable seals and greases to keep the road grit out. So, unless they are ridden only in very clean conditions and regularly flushed and re-oiled, they will very quickly ruin their own races and be running considerably worse than an equivalent steel bearing.

So, while it can be said that they offer reduced friction - in any way that matters, it's only in circumstances that a bicycle never sees. They do offer _apparent_ reductions due to lubrication and seal-quality issues. So, they provide a careful marketer the opportunity to sell something at a much higher margin. A clear benefit for them.

But that's not enough difference to mean any measurable result on the road - you'll notice that everyone who's chimed in on how much better they are has not been able to present any quantifiable difference. All placebo effect, which is indeed very strong in bicycle equipment. And even if we assume there is a small difference, it's due to changes we could make to steel bearings as well - destroy the seals and use light oil on the bearings. And with either, we'd be committing ourselves to considerably enhanced maintenance to keep those benefits around. 

But, it's your money. Spend it any way you'd like. If you want to toss it into the donations basket at the Church of Silicon Nitride, far be it from me to tell you you are worshiping a false god.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Excellent summary Danl1.

There's nothing wrong with having ceramics if you want them or if you honestly feel they will make you faster. The issue is with sales literature being presented as objective evidence. Many of the claims they make are correct, ie the balls are more spherical, but other issues like longevity are not mentioned. Also, proper lube for ceramic bearings is very expensive, and they must be maintained constantly.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Drone 5200 said:


> I replaced a standard 7800 BB with the Enduro Zeros. It's easy to observe how much smoother they are by simply spinning the cranks with no chain. They go and go and go and don't want to stop. Very low friction..


That's due to the grease and seals, not the bearing material: a small amount of low viscosity grease and non-contact seals.


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

The easy work stand spin? "The only thing that tells you is that your ceramics have either worse seals, lower viscosity grease, or both. It tells you nothing about what they are like loaded."

True enough. But I suspect many of the nay sayers here haven't ridden ceramic. I have and I like it.

Prices have dropped enough that they are worth trying out I think. But beware of what you are buying. There are different grades of bearings and even a casual glance will tell you there is a difference in the seals used.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Nob said:


> The easy work stand spin? "The only thing that tells you is that your ceramics have either worse seals, lower viscosity grease, or both. It tells you nothing about what they are like loaded."
> 
> True enough. But I suspect many of the nay sayers here haven't ridden ceramic. I have and I like it.
> 
> Prices have dropped enough that they are worth trying out I think. *But beware of what you are buying.* There are different grades of bearings and even a casual glance will tell you there is a difference in the seals used.


i've ridden ceramic...like i posted earlier, no difference in my 200m or my kilo times. who knows...maybe at the world cup level it's worth a few 1000's of a second. definitely be aware of what you're buying. you'll need to do much more frequent service or you're definitely throwing money down the drain.


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

Ha,ha, ha! Even those supporting ceramic would never suggest you would see any improvement in a 200m sprint or even a full kilometer. Pays to have realistic expectations of the equipment you choose. 

*"Minor difference in spin"*??!! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a ceramic BB literally quadruples the spin of a set of a loose pair of cranks on the work stand. That may not mean anything (but I REALLY doubt it) on the road. Like counting grams on bike weight...or calories in your daily diet, it all adds up. 

Yes the maintance might be higher if you regularly service your BB. How many actually do? A *loss of friction* is a good thing on any bike, no matter how slight.. If you can afford the $ outlay and understand the limitations of the change it is worth the thought and may be even the $ imo.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Nob said:


> Ha,ha, ha! Even those supporting ceramic would never suggest you would see any improvement in a 200m sprint or even a full kilometer. Pays to have realistic expectations of the equipment you choose.
> 
> *"Minor difference in spin"*??!! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a ceramic BB literally quadruples the spin of a set of a loose pair of cranks on the work stand. That may not mean anything (but I REALLY doubt it) on the road. Like counting grams on bike weight...or calories in your daily diet, it all adds up.
> 
> Yes the maintance might be higher if you regularly service your BB. How many actually do? A *loss of friction* is a good thing on any bike, no matter how slight.. If you can afford the $ outlay and understand the limitations of the change it is worth the thought and may be even the $ imo.


The spin difference is due to lower viscosity oil and worse seals, not the bearings. I believe one edition of Dura-Ace had something similar, with steel bearings, and most disliked it.
As for the price argument by the OP; tell me, if I charged you $1000 for a jersey that was supposedly more aerodynamic, would it be better just because it costs more?


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

lolpierandom said:


> .
> As for the price argument by the OP; tell me, if I charged you 1k for a jersey that was supposddly more aero, would it be better jut because it costs more?


if it had a better package. Oh, and CC said it was better. :thumbsup:


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Oh god, just realized the atrocious grammar of my previous post; curse you, horrible android tablet keyboard!

Ontopic:

CC says that it's the top jersey of the year, with it's luxury moisture wicking, 100% air transfer, and its super aerodynamics! Dude, it will make you go so fast, it will be like your bike and body don't freaking exist.

Plus it comes in a fancy box!

(Now that I think of it, I could probably get rich doing this! There's plenty of gullible people in the world)


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

Oh man, nice slow pitch game going on here. Yes there are better jersys and tri suits made out of the new wonder fabric that bloc sun, shun water or even more aero with the wind. They generally cost more as well. 

Will any of them make you faster on the clock? Likely not.

"The spin difference is due to lower viscosity oil and worse seals, not the bearings."

I suspect you can easily find documentation that says it is a combo of friction in the seal, friction in the heavier lube/grease *and* better bearings, that will work as inteneded with a lesser seal and thinner grease.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

If I can easily find it, why don't you?

And please, don't even give me the CC or manufacturer crap, they're the ones selling it.

If you slap a bad seal and use lower viscosity oil on a steel bearing, it will do a similar thing, or the same.


----------



## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

OK, well I'm a naysayer who has ridden ceramic. As I've said elsewhere, I was out of the sport for over a decade and when I came back, I upgraded all my components and these wiz-bang ceramic bearings sounded cool, so I got a set of those too. One, ONE, time getting caught in a serious rain-storm and they spun with a "crunchy" feeling/sound like I've never heard from bearings before. Ultegra or DA steel BB bearings are plenty smooth enough for me from here on out. :thumbsup:

OTOH, it's your money, you should enjoy it however you want. 

I wouldn't cite or believe information from manufacturers or retailers of the bearings to justify my choice however.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

*Oil Ports*

1. Disassemble hubs, remove all grease and reassmble dry.
2. Remove clip from center of hub exposing oil port or find oil port on bearing seal/cover.
3. Squirt in oil.
4. Mount wheels on bike.
5. Ride Like the Wind!

Lots cheaper than ceramic.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

velodog said:


> 1. Disassemble hubs, remove all grease and reassmble dry.
> 2. Remove clip from center of hub exposing oil port or find oil port on bearing seal/cover.
> 3. Squirt in oil.
> 4. Mount wheels on bike.
> ...


Now, thats going back.


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

"If you slap a bad seal and use lower viscosity oil on a steel bearing, it will do a similar thing, or the same."

Yes and a steel bearing will last how long with little lube and a bad seal? Ceramic bearing and TiN coated steel races will go a long time in a similar enviroment by comparison. Both materials (ceramics and TiN coatings) were designed to work in extremely harsh environments with little wear. Neither were designed by *ANYONE* in the bike industry btw. Simply technology adapted to the bike industry with varing levels of sucess obviously.

As it has been said it is your money. Spend it wisely.


----------



## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

I spent a little time looking for answers to this thread. Opinions aside.

I found an Australian forum that pointed me to a tech web site (Bike Tech Review). Interesting article on speed. Notice most of the way down the page, they list all of the various components to gaining speed and relative importance. The article addresses much more than ceramic bearings.

http://biketechreview.com/reviews/frames/477-speed-for-sale

I also saw some youtube videos showing ceramics were superior, but the tests I saw, the wheels were not loaded. Meaning, that any test done without weight on the wheels is useless on a bicycle. Yes, the ceramic bearings appeared to spin easier, but like I said earlier, they are not under a load. A good test would be to put a power meter on a bike and run it by machine. Identical loading, identical conditions.

That said, the OP can very well spend his money on whatsoever he wants.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Nob said:


> Yes and a steel bearing will last how long with little lube and a bad seal? Ceramic bearing and TiN coated steel races will go a long time in a similar enviroment by comparison. Both materials (ceramics and TiN coatings) were designed to work in extremely harsh environments with little wear.


Uh-huh. That's why ceramics have a record of crapping out. 

Bad seals, super hard balls, and steel races = mean time between failure goes straight into the crapper


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Dan 1 has put in a very good post about the "down" side of ceramic bearings. I applaud the way he has done it. I got sick of people like the "wrench" just "dumping" on the argument with out really contributing. Dan1 has, and perhaps given me some really good things to consider.
Yes I posted the "evidence" ... which as pointed out comes from sellers, who yes, are hardly going to say they are crap. However, I reiterate, NO one would invest quite possibly Hundreds of thousands maybe millions of dollars on a whim? to produce these bearings for sale and risk all that money, unless a return on it. 
the point about the $1,000 jersey...well word gets out that it doesn't make a difference and soon they don't sell. these BB's though are in production and are selling. Maybe they need improvement's? Dan1 has pointed out some good things to consider, it's not a negative post, but perhaps well informed? 
The Chris KIng BB's come with a little grease gun? yes maybe a hassle? 
As pointed out by another though....if these bearings offer an advantage, then it's an advantage...price? well how much would someone pay to go a bit faster, I suspect that varies for all of us. 
Some of the claims do seem fanciful, but then again, I don't see too many detractors, or ridicule of the product from competitors. As for cost, well if claims were true, that they last 5 times longer, then in the LONG run they are cheaper? but, this all depends of wether they live up to claims.
Personally this does seem that the subject needs more investigation. Last few post's have been informed and balanced. Points for both sides, so more to consider.
Thanks for the replies so far.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

quote: "However, I reiterate, NO one would invest quite possibly Hundreds of thousands maybe millions of dollars on a whim?"

The bike industry didn't/does't invest a penny in developing/producing ceramic bearnings. They just put them in their parts.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Gervase said:


> Dan 1 has put in a very good post about the "down" side of ceramic bearings. I applaud the way he has done it. I got sick of people like the "wrench" just "dumping" on the argument with out really contributing. Dan1 has, and perhaps given me some really good things to consider.
> Yes I posted the "evidence" ... which as pointed out comes from sellers, who yes, are hardly going to say they are crap. However, I reiterate, NO one would invest quite possibly Hundreds of thousands maybe millions of dollars on a whim? to produce these bearings for sale and risk all that money, unless a return on it.
> the point about the $1,000 jersey...well word gets out that it doesn't make a difference and soon they don't sell. these BB's though are in production and are selling. Maybe they need improvement's? Dan1 has pointed out some good things to consider, it's not a negative post, but perhaps well informed?
> The Chris KIng BB's come with a little grease gun? yes maybe a hassle?
> ...


I assure you that lots of "advanced technologies" have been invented, just for the manufacturer to make money, not to give any noticeable performance boost.

I personally wouldn't use money for a ceramic bb, and would use it on something difference, but whatever, put on your bike what you want to. I simply don't think the 100 higher price tag justifies the extremely minor(if there are any) performance increases,


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Gervase said:


> NO one would invest quite possibly Hundreds of thousands maybe millions of dollars on a whim? to produce these bearings for sale and risk all that money, unless a return on it


They were not developed by bicycle companies, they are meant for environments different from those bicycles experience. The advantages aren't really relevant to bicycles.


> The Chris KIng BB's come with a little grease gun? yes maybe a hassle?


A much better investment than ceramics. The gun flushes out old grease as new grease is injected. Since maintenance is so easy, it is more likely to be done regularly. 


> they last 5 times longer


They don't, especially if they get exposed to any kind of grit. 

People are trying to give you advice here and you keep disregarding it. cxwrench has more credibility than most, listen to him.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Oh yes...& there really is a Santa Claus  ....I dont know what other industry uses a "bottom bracket" that is designed to only go into a bike!! Do u really think some other industry would just go to all the trouble & expense of making ceramic bearings that only fit into a bike & THEN approach the bike industry and say..."look what we made, would you like to buy these, we only spent a million researching, developing, setting up special machinery, tooling??" 
If you believe the bike industry didn't put in a cent / penny into this... Then I don't think your being realistic


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Gervase said:


> Oh yes...& there really is a Santa Claus  ....I dont know what other industry uses a "bottom bracket" that is designed to only go into a bike!! Do u really think some other industry would just go to all the trouble & expense of making ceramic bearings that only fit into a bike & THEN approach the bike industry and say..."look what we made, would you like to buy these, we only spent a million researching, developing, setting up special machinery, tooling??"
> If you believe the bike industry didn't put in a cent / penny into this... Then I don't think your being realistic


Technology for ceramic bearings was not invented by the bike industry. Lots of other recreational activities use bearings as well, and I'm sure there are many other uses. It costs minimal R&D to adjust already existing bearings to be used in a bottom bracket.

I don't even know why we're arguing with you, when it's clear that you don't want to listen to what we say.

Look, since you seem so insistent on justifying buying ceramic bbs, just buy one and quit looking for other people to encourage you.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

lolpierandom said:


> Technology for ceramic bearings was not invented by the bike industry. Lots of other recreational activities use bearings as well, and I'm sure there are many other uses. It costs minimal R&D to adjust already existing bearings to be used in a bottom bracket.
> 
> I don't even know why we're arguing with you, when it's clear that you don't want to listen to what we say.
> 
> Look, since you seem so insistent on justifying buying ceramic bbs, just buy one and quit looking for other people to encourage you.


I am not insisstent on buying them, I just wanted some information., what I mainly got if you reread this tread was sarcasm. My last thread stooped to the same level. 
Initially I got only helpfull threads from people who supported the use of ceramic bb. 
To use in the argument that not one peeny was spent by the bike industry, seriously damagess the credibility of the argument. Regardless who actually developed ceramic bearings etc... The bb can only be used on bicycles, & no one would just make em in the hope that they might be used! Come on that's just not how things work in the world we live in


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Gervase said:


> Oh yes...& there really is a Santa Claus  ....I dont know what other industry uses a "bottom bracket" that is designed to only go into a bike!! Do u really think some other industry would just go to all the trouble & expense of making ceramic bearings that only fit into a bike & THEN approach the bike industry and say..."look what we made, would you like to buy these, we only spent a million researching, developing, setting up special machinery, tooling??"
> If you believe the bike industry didn't put in a cent / penny into this... Then I don't think your being realistic












This may come as a shocking surprise to you, but a product with a nut or bolt in it does not mean that the manufacturer spent millions of dollars to design and make its own nuts or bolts. It is a difficult concept to grasp, I know, but these things come in standard sizes. They sell them at the hardware store. Some genius--must have been a rocket scientist if you think about what a giant leap of imagination it took--extended the concept of standard size nuts and bolts to standard size bearings. I think he won a Nobel prize.


----------



## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

Gervase said:


> I am not insisstent on buying them, I just wanted some information., what I mainly got if you reread this tread was sarcasm. My last thread stooped to the same level.
> Initially I got only helpfull threads from people who supported the use of ceramic bb.
> To use in the argument that not one peeny was spent by the bike industry, seriously damagess the credibility of the argument. Regardless who actually developed ceramic bearings etc... The bb can only be used on bicycles, & no one would just make em in the hope that they might be used! Come on that's just not how things work in the world we live in


What I think you are misunderstanding is that bottom brackets are merely bearings. That the bottom bracket can only be used on a bicycle is pretty much correct, but that isn't what we are questioning here. We are questioning the only difference between ceramic and standard bottom brackets which is the bearings themselves. And there isn't really all that much to compare. It's just price and material. Ceramic costs more because it isn't as mass produced as standard bearings. The reason it isn't as mass produced is because there is no need for them in most situations due to durability issues. So it is really just supply and demand. Ceramic bearings have a specialized use, and if you think that cycling can be a use for them, please by all means, spend the extra. It's not like it's that much money anyways.


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

FWIW ceramic bearings and TiN (any) coating were not originally intended for the sporting goods industry. Sealed bearings are called "sealed" for a reason. Adapting generic bearings "as all of these are" , ceramic or steel, is just common sense. Some really basic bearing technology still being used in top level bike parts. Campy still uses a bronze bushing in the rear derailuer as an example.

News flash! Carbon fiber wasn't invented for the sporting goods industry or bikes specifically either. And there are those that will argue Chromoly is a better ride.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Gervase said:


> Oh yes...& there really is a Santa Claus


I wonder if he's using ceramic runners on his sleigh, enabling him to deliver all those toys to the good children in such a timely fashion?


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Gervase said:


> Oh yes...& there really is a Santa Claus  ....I dont know what other industry uses a "bottom bracket" that is designed to only go into a bike!! Do u really think some other industry would just go to all the trouble & expense of making ceramic bearings that only fit into a bike & THEN approach the bike industry and say..."look what we made, would you like to buy these, we only spent a million researching, developing, setting up special machinery, tooling??"
> If you believe the bike industry didn't put in a cent / penny into this... Then I don't think your being realistic



I'm starting to think troll. The level of misunderstanding is approaching the border of believability.

Do you think the bike industry funded the invention and production or Kevlar? Because it's in a lot of tires that aren't used for anything but bikes. how many million do you figure they put into plastic? they obviously invested heavily in that because my water bottle cage isn't used for anything but bikes.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm starting to think troll. The level of misunderstanding is approaching the border of believability.
> 
> Do you think the bike industry funded the invention and production or Kevlar? Because it's in a lot of tires that aren't used for anything but bikes. how many million do you figure they put into plastic? they obviously invested heavily in that because my water bottle cage isn't used for anything but bikes.





Nob said:


> FWIW ceramic bearings and TiN (any) coating were not originally intended for the sporting goods industry. Sealed bearings are called "sealed" for a reason. Adapting generic bearings "as all of these are" , ceramic or steel, is just common sense. Some really basic bearing technology still being used in top level bike parts. Campy still uses a bronze bushing in the rear derailuer as an example.
> 
> News flash! Carbon fiber wasn't invented for the sporting goods industry or bikes specifically either. And there are those that will argue Chromoly is a better ride.


What are you, stupid? Everyone knows the bike industries invented Carbon Fiber, but then a custom builder came out with Titanium to woop the big manufacturer's sorry arses.

Then this dude discovered chromoly steel, which was all awesome, but there was this other new substance invented called aluminum alloy which was cheaper.

They also invented all the molding, welding/brazing techniques to assemble these bikes as well. Do you guys not know anything about bikes? :mad2:

But in all seriousness, yes, OP, you are insistent on buying ceramic BBs. If you weren't, you wouldn't be arguing so desperately for them. If you just wanted advice, you would have accepted that most evidence points there really is nothing going for ceramic, but instead, you just spew seller and manufacturer crap at us.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> "we'll be over here in the corner, snickering. and wishing we were the guys that sold them to you."
> Monkey wrench..your one of life's "put downer's"..you have to BE right..
> Hey...I am just presenting some evidence
> *What are you presenting, other than sarcasm?*


dan and i have said all we can. you refuse to listen. bicycle 'bottom brackets' are basically cartridge bearings. the bicycle industry as decided to use existing technology for many components, bottom brackets being one of them. there is no need to re-invent anything to make it work for a bike. as many have said, there never have been millions of dollars invested to 'make better bottom brackets'. ceramic bearings as designed for completely different applications where they make perfectly good sense. they are total overkill for bicycles. i have a very close friend in the bearing industry and he is constantly blown away by how many people actually think they're going to be faster because they use ceramic bearings. 
maybe i'll change my user name to monkey wrench, though...'cuz that was insanely witty.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

we are not talking "nuts or bolts" we are talking, integrated bearings, all put into metal circles called "races" usually aligned in precise manner on a machined cylinder, of exact dimensions...that can only fit..a "BICYCLE"...nothing else uses a Bottom bracket..they don't fit cars or aeroplanes....just bikes...like to see you make them out of "nuts or bolts" or for that matter anything like around your garage? and make sure it threads into a "BICYCLE"....


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

"i'll change my user name to monkey wrench, though...'cuz that was insanely witty"

.You gave me NOTHING but sarcasm, it seemed to me that's how you communicate, so I responded in a manner you understand..


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm starting to think troll. The level of misunderstanding is approaching the border of believability.
> 
> Do you think the bike industry funded the invention and production or Kevlar? Because it's in a lot of tires that aren't used for anything but bikes. how many million do you figure they put into plastic? they obviously invested heavily in that because my water bottle cage isn't used for anything but bikes.


Ah finally your brain is clicking into a gear...NO they did not invent Kevlar...did the Kevlar people use it for bikes?..well lets think about this a bit more Jay. Firstly it's CARBON fibre, and they adapted this technology, but if you think they (the bike manufacturers) just grabbed some carbon fibre and some epoxy resin to start making frames...then really this ends possibly at the end of your next reply, because if you can't understand that moulds would have to be made, testing of the frames strength's, layups, products, etc. safety standards, blah..blah...blah, then you really do not understand that you can't just take something and Voila, like little magic elves it's all done....
Same goes for these bearings..sure some one made these types of bearings, maybe even the same size. They still have to be adapted to be used into Bicycles....that's not going to take 5 minutes & $20 worth of parts.
You would have to do quite a bit of research, building of prototypes, testing them, they have to be machined to exactly fit into only a bicycle...I intitially said hundreds of thousands.
Think about this..go and build a pencil...i bet you can't. you need the wood for the pencil, the lead, and even the paint. Now if you contract that out, they contractors are going to want some return for there investment in Lead processing or whatever they do. But YOU will not be able to build one. Every part of industry want's a return on their money. Who ever built the BB will be wanting a return on their money, and you can gaurantee, they don't just wander down to the local bearing shop and make a bottom bracket....other wise..we all would.


----------



## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)




----------



## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

Gervase said:


> Ah finally your brain is clicking into a gear...NO they did not invent Kevlar...did the Kevlar people use it for bikes?..well lets think about this a bit more Jay. Firstly it's CARBON fibre, and they adapted this technology, but if you think they (the bike manufacturers) just grabbed some carbon fibre and some epoxy resin to start making frames...then really this ends possibly at the end of your next reply, because if you can't understand that moulds would have to be made, testing of the frames strength's, layups, products, etc. safety standards, blah..blah...blah, then you really do not understand that you can't just take something and Voila, like little magic elves it's all done....
> Same goes for these bearings..sure some one made these types of bearings, maybe even the same size. They still have to be adapted to be used into Bicycles....that's not going to take 5 minutes & $20 worth of parts.
> You would have to do quite a bit of research, building of prototypes, testing them, they have to be machined to exactly fit into only a bicycle...I intitially said hundreds of thousands.
> Think about this..go and build a pencil...i bet you can't. you need the wood for the pencil, the lead, and even the paint. Now if you contract that out, they contractors are going to want some return for there investment in Lead processing or whatever they do. But YOU will not be able to build one. Every part of industry want's a return on their money. Who ever built the BB will be wanting a return on their money, and you can gaurantee, they don't just wander down to the local bearing shop and make a bottom bracket....other wise..we all would.


Now you are just talking out of your ass. BBs and hub bearings are just a particularly sized ball bearing assembly with adapters to fit a certain size hole. Unless Mcmaster-Carr is really just a bike company McMaster-Carr


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

For those wanting a little more education and less internet opinion on the topic, Dr. Edmund Burke's book "High-Tech Cycling" has a couple of pages and some test data on the subject of bearing friction. Pages 19 and 20 for the bearing info and graphs. But the entire book is a good read...only a bit dated as the 2nd edition was done in 2003.


----------



## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

Nob said:


> For those wanting a little more education and less internet opinion on the topic, Dr. Edmund Burke's book "High-Tech Cycling" has a couple of pages and some test data on the subject of bearing friction. Pages 19 and 20 for the bearing info and graphs. But the entire book is a good read...only a bit dated as the 2nd edition was done in 2003.


Just placed an order for the book through Amazon. Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Mind quoting some of his opinion on the topic?


----------



## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

You'd think at some point someone would have done a Pepsi challenge with an SRM equipped bike to compare watts vs. speed for ceramic bearing components vs. standard bearing components to see if there are any advantages.


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

> Mind quoting some of his opinion on the topic?


Couple of thoughts. First is if you don't know who Burke was you should. The "Bearing Friction" comments were written by co-author and professor of biomechanical engineering at Cal State Long Beach Dr. Chester Kyle. 

Everyone will make up their own minds on the value of the info offered. The basic research on brearing friction quoted is from 1986, 1988 and 1991. Long before the bike industry started using ceramic bearings. IMO it is clear from that research why there are now ceramic bearings offered and being used in performance oriented bikes. YMMV. Book is a great read for gear heads.


----------



## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

This is what Coach Boyd has to say on ceramic bearings:



Boyd Cycling said:


> We have gotten a lot of questions lately about whether we will supply wheels with ceramic bearings. The quick answer is that we don't, we use very high quality steel bearings in our hubs (made by Enduro which is considered the top quality bearing in the bicycle industry). A good high quality steel bearing rolls just as nice as ceramic bearings and last much longer.
> 
> A lot of times when you see explanations of why ceramic bearings are better they show wheels spinning upside down with no load on the wheel. Under these conditions the ceramic bearings will spin longer, but none of us ride with our wheels in the air (hopefully). With load on the bearings the high quality steel bearings spin just as well as a ceramic bearing. Ceramic bearings are also much harder than standard steel bearings, this hardness can actually wear grooves into the race surrounding the bearings. When the grooves start to appear this bearings do not roll very smooth and need to be replaced. This is why the ceramic bearings usually need to be replaced sooner than steel bearings (at a much higher cost).
> 
> ...


Ceramic bearings. . .nope | Facebook


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

^ great post! ^


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> This is what Coach Boyd has to say on ceramic bearings:
> 
> 
> Ceramic bearings. . .nope | Facebook


If what coach boyd says is true, one has to wonder about the "excitement" that has surrounded the use of the larger BB30 Bottom brackets, given that bearings (if what he says is true) make very little difference?


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Gervase said:


> If what coach boyd says is true, one has to wonder about the "excitement" that has surrounded the use of the larger BB30 Bottom brackets, given that bearings (if what he says is true) make very little difference?


Stiffer crank spindle.

Oh, and BB30 sucks. Noisey, dosent last ect... I dont see it as a lasting standard. This is just my opinion though.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

tihsepa said:


> Stiffer crank spindle.
> 
> Oh, and BB30 sucks. Noisey, dosent last ect... I dont see it as a lasting standard. This is just my opinion though.


BB 30 "sucks"... This truly is an interesting thread, & coach Boyd & you, are pretty much saying these people are trying to con us!! 
I wonder what they will be riding in tour de France this year to get the best from their bikes? 
I shall watch closely


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gervase said:


> BB 30 "sucks"... This truly is an interesting thread, & coach Boyd & you, are pretty much saying these people are trying to con us!!
> I wonder what they will be riding in tour de France this year to get the best from their bikes?
> I shall watch closely


some steel some ceramics. 
some campagnolo, some shimano, some sram. some continental, some vittoria, some michelin. and you know what is the common denominator for all of it? they are being paid to use that equipment by the manufacturer.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> BB 30 "sucks"... This truly is an interesting thread, & coach Boyd & you, are pretty much saying these people are trying to con us!!
> I wonder what they will be riding in tour de France this year to get the best from their bikes?
> I shall watch closely


are you really that out of touch w/ how things work regarding pro teams and their equipment?


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Gervase said:


> we are not talking "nuts or bolts" we are talking, integrated bearings, all put into metal circles called "races" usually aligned in precise manner on a machined cylinder, of exact dimensions...that can only fit..a "BICYCLE"...nothing else uses a Bottom bracket..they don't fit cars or aeroplanes....just bikes...like to see you make them out of "nuts or bolts" or for that matter anything like around your garage? and make sure it threads into a "BICYCLE"....


You seem to be confusing "bearings" and "bearing cups". The actual bearings - races, balls, and seals - are standard items in industrial parts catalogs. 

It is only the cups that hold them that make them bicycle specific, and those are boring bits of aluminum and plastic.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

danl1 said:


> You seem to be confusing "bearings" and "bearing cups". The actual bearings - races, balls, and seals - are standard items in industrial parts catalogs.
> 
> It is only the cups that hold them that make them bicycle specific, and those are boring bits of aluminum and plastic.


does that prove the cycling industry spent tons of money inventing plastic and the proper treatment of aluminium?


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> are you really that out of touch w/ how things work regarding pro teams and their equipment?


Wrench, i guess if you say so..?


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

Boyd is talking wheel bearings, not the crank or RD pulleys btw.


----------



## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

Nob said:


> Boyd is talking wheel bearings, not the crank or RD pulleys btw.


Yes but claims were made upthread that ceramic bearings magically made a bike roll down a hill faster


----------



## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

Nob said:


> Boyd is talking wheel bearings, not the crank or RD pulleys btw.


And one of the supporting youtube videos shows someone spinning wheels with ceramic bearings, steel bearings without a load on them. Mr. Boyd's blog hits these squarely between the eyes. An unloaded bearing is not doing its job.

Bearings are made to "bear" the weight (duh) with as little friction as can be achieved!


----------



## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

den bakker said:


> does that prove the cycling industry spent tons of money inventing plastic and the proper treatment of aluminium?


Hundreds of thousands :thumbsup:


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

"ceramic bearings magically made a bike roll down a hill faster " 

They don't?!!

Magic? Easier to just add some weight don't ya think?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> Wrench, i guess if you say so..?


what do you expect me to say? teams ride what their (paying) sponsors provide. some teams (Highroad was a good example, as is Team Sky) don't have deals for certain parts and are free to buy their own from various manufacturers, in these 2 cases it's wheels. if the frames they're paid to use have BB30, that's what they use...if they use GXP, or PF...that's what they use. they replace parts on a continuous basis, so they never really experience any of the problems that a normal rider would. some teams have sponsors that provide parts w/ ceramic bearings, some don't. do you see riders on standard steel bearings getting dropped every day? do you see riders that win stages doing so because they were on ceramic bearings? i'm pretty sure Wiggo would win tt's w/ sand in his bearings, just as Cav would win sprints w/ dirty derailleur pulleys. differences in rotational drag are so miniscule in the overall scheme of things that it really doesn't matter. the only time i would seriously think of using ceramic bearings is on the track, where dirt and wear aren't really an issue, but 1000's of a second routinely are. if you've optimized every other part of the kit (frame, position, wheels, helmet, clothing, tires) to the greatest degree possible, why not do the bearings?

but they absolutely will not let you roll down the road any faster if you're a normal guy on a normal road.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Nob said:


> "ceramic bearings magically made a bike roll down a hill faster "
> 
> They don't?!!
> 
> Magic? Easier to just add some weight don't ya think?


Your right but the Trouble with that is going back up the next hill...


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

I have seen more noisey, failed BB30's than any 24mm Shimano BB. The BB30 style is lighter and stiffer but not by much. I will bet more than anything it is cheeper. Well, except for the billions of dollars they spent on the bearings.

I second the vote for Troll.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

tihsepa said:


> I have seen more noisey, failed BB30's than any 24mm Shimano BB. The BB30 style is lighter and stiffer but not by much. I will bet more than anything it is cheeper. Well, except for the billions of dollars they spent on the bearings.
> 
> I second the vote for Troll.


Companies like Cannondale have pretty much switched all production of their bikes to BB30's...So are you saying they are going to lose reputation? sales? as more people start to side with your viewpoint?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Gervase said:


> Companies like Cannondale have pretty much switched all production of their bikes to BB30's...So are you saying they are going to lose reputation? sales? as more people start to side with your viewpoint?


Probably not. 

The thing that you have to realize is that people are basicly sheep and they're going to do what they are told to do. Marketers know this and prey on it.

The question I have is are you Sheep or Troll?


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

forget about ceramic bearings. this is where the future lies 
ACTIVE SPOKE BICYCLE WHEEL ADD-ON FOR MOMENTUM MANAGEMENT


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> Companies like Cannondale have pretty much switched all production of their bikes to BB30's...So are you saying they are going to lose reputation? sales? as more people start to side with your viewpoint?


since Cannondale came up w/ BB30, i don't see them dropping it anytime soon. but remember ISIS? the was the combined effort of King/TruVativ/RaceFace and it's pretty much gone. you never know what 'improvements' will be thrust upon the industry.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

This guy is hilarious. All his arguments boil down to, "The used car salesman told me so. He wouldn't lie, would he?"


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

velodog said:


> Probably not.
> 
> The thing that you have to realize is that people are basicly sheep and they're going to do what they are told to do. Marketers know this and prey on it.
> 
> The question I have is are you Sheep or Troll?


I am different to most people, neither of these descriptions apply to me. 
The reputation of a company like cannondale is currently very highly regarded. Their "evo" is widely considered one of the best bikes in the world. This reputation has grown especially in the time when they have been using BB 30, intact they appear to have introduced the standard to the bike industry, so I find the remarks of derision about the BB 30 "sucks"... Well intriguing? 
Oh people like to classify others... It makes the classifier feel... More secure perhaps?


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

tihsepa said:


> Stiffer crank spindle.
> 
> Oh, and BB30 sucks. Noisey, dosent last ect... I dont see it as a lasting standard. This is just my opinion though.


In what way do BB 30 "sucks"..? Cannondale introduced this standard to the bike industry, & the rest of the bike industry has "followed", as often happens to leaders. Their " Evo" being regarded as one of the best bikes in the world. 
It's so far widely accepted that this creates lighter cranks, stiffer bottom brackets, apart from you a lot think quieter? 
So why do u think it sucks?


----------



## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

Gervase said:


> In what way do BB 30 "sucks"..? Cannondale introduced this standard to the bike industry, & the rest of the bike industry has "followed", as often happens to leaders. Their " Evo" being regarded as one of the best bikes in the world.
> It's so far widely accepted that this creates lighter cranks, stiffer bottom brackets, apart from you a lot think quieter?
> So why do u think it sucks?


Shimano has yet to follow, and they are arguably the industry leader


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> Shimano has yet to follow, and they are arguably the industry leader


The question was "in what way does BB30 "sucks"


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Gervase said:


> In what way do BB 30 "sucks"..? Cannondale introduced this standard to the bike industry, & the rest of the bike industry has "followed", as often happens to leaders. Their " Evo" being regarded as one of the best bikes in the world.
> It's so far widely accepted that this creates lighter cranks, stiffer bottom brackets, apart from you a lot think quieter?
> So why do u think it sucks?


I dont know how many you have worked on but I have a bunch. 

BB30 has a crap seal system. Water and dirt is a constant problem. I have taken a bunch apart to replace bearings. They creek. You have to locktite the bearings in the shell to keep them quiet. You have to pull it down and lube the spindle to keep them quiet. For most people this means a trip to the shop and spending money. Its a pain in the ass. Why do people put up with it? its cool. The guy said it was great. Whatever.

Next we have the old standard. The 24MM Shimano or something like it. Same people, Older bike. They didnt take care of it either. It just went round and round quietly until it was shot. The replaced the bottom bracket and went on their way. For a long time. 

Octilink, Square taper? Same thing it just ran and ran. 


Newer is not always better. 

Now, I think you are a troll. Nobody can be such a rock and keep it up. I am moving on from this moron-a-thon discussion about bearings and technology. I will wait for this thread to be dredged up on a Thursday 8 years from now and get a laugh all over again. Have a nice day. :mad2:


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

tihsepa said:


> I dont know how many you have worked on but I have a bunch.
> 
> BB30 has a crap seal system. Water and dirt is a constant problem. I have taken a bunch apart to replace bearings. They creek. You have to locktite the bearings in the shell to keep them quiet. You have to pull it down and lube the spindle to keep them quiet. For most people this means a trip to the shop and spending money. Its a pain in the ass. Why do people put up with it? its cool. The guy said it was great. Whatever.
> 
> ...


you make short life time sound like such a bad thing. It's great for the manufacturer


----------



## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

den bakker said:


> you make short life time sound like such a bad thing. It's great for the manufacturer


Yes, it is the American way. Design and manufacture for obsolescence. If it fails within the warranty period, no good. If it fails one day after the warranty period, the manufacturer wins!


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> I am different to most people, neither of these descriptions apply to me.
> The reputation of a company like cannondale is currently very highly regarded. Their "evo" is widely considered one of the best bikes in the world. This reputation has grown especially in the time when they have been using BB 30, intact they appear to have introduced the standard to the bike industry, so I find the remarks of derision about the BB 30 "sucks"... Well intriguing?
> Oh people like to classify others... It makes the classifier feel... More secure perhaps?


all you have to do is search 'BB30'...i'm quite sure there are more threads not liking than ones that like it. it's very simple. it's lighter. it has it's problems. Cervelo is one of the most engineering heavy companies in the industry, and their BBRight (hell, their bottom brackets in general for a couple of years) have been pretty much a nightmare. just because a 'reputable' company designs, engineers, tests, and then markets a product or standard does not in any way mean it actually works in a real world application. 
IMO any bottom bracket that relies on 'press-fit' of any kind will have problems. the only one that has proven to be trouble free in my experience is the Trek BB90-95 system. we haven't had one problem w/ any of dozens we've done.


----------



## Rick Draper (Jan 17, 2012)

BB30 frames are cheaper to produce I believe than regular threaded BB frames meaning more profit margin for the manufacturer.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> BB30 frames are cheaper to produce I believe than regular threaded BB frames meaning more profit margin for the manufacturer.


Thats to help them recoop the eleventy million dollars they spent on R&D.


----------



## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Gervase said:


> Cannondale introduced this standard to the bike industry, & the rest of the bike industry has "followed", as often happens to leaders. Their " Evo" being regarded as one of the best bikes in the world. It's so far widely accepted that this creates lighter cranks, stiffer bottom brackets, apart from you a lot think quieter?


Let me guess... your local Cannondale dealer told you all this? :lol:


----------



## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> IMO any bottom bracket that relies on 'press-fit' of any kind will have problems.


IMO too. Can't see any way around it.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

OldChipper said:


> Let me guess... your local Cannondale dealer told you all this? :lol:


The sales guy said it. It has to be true.


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> since Cannondale came up w/ BB30, i don't see them dropping it anytime soon. but remember ISIS? the was the combined effort of King/TruVativ/RaceFace and it's pretty much gone. you never know what 'improvements' will be thrust upon the industry.


Careful there - you're mighty close to peeling back the Wizard's curtain there. 

I'm cynical enough to believe they were working on the next 'improvement' to BB30 before they printed the first glossy to sell it.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

tihsepa said:


> Now, I think you are a troll. Nobody can be such a rock and keep it up


I think it's that rogue mechanic guy with a new handle. 
Instead of blathering about Ultra Torque it's ceramic bearings. 
Same M.O. though, he makes an assertion, it is discounted, he changes topics, then makes his assertion again.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Rick Draper said:


> BB30 frames are cheaper to produce I believe than regular threaded BB frames meaning more profit margin for the manufacturer.


Less parts, no complicated threaded parts, and simpler assembly on the factory floor.

The benefit is to the manufacturer, not the consumer. 

Cdale likely hoped this would be adopted industrywide and they would make a gazillion off the idea like Rader and his Aheadset.


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

*I know not why I bother, but*

Just happened across this in Neuvation's newsletter. Mind you, he sells them (or at least used to sell them, but stopped.)



> Ceramic bearings.
> I get asked about ceramic bearings all the time and at one time sold them. They are still one of the buzz words although the buzz is dying pretty fast.
> Ceramic bearings in bikes came about when some Northern Europeans started putting them in pro’s bikes. Virtually all sealed cartridge bicycle bearings are stock bearings.* I don’t know of any that were created specifically for bikes.* {emphasis mine}
> Contrary to popular belief, ceramic bearings gain their performance advantage not from being rounder or harder, their advantage comes because they use a thin grease or oil instead of standard grease and a contact seal that has less contact. If you take a stock cartridge bearing and change the grease to oil and use the same low contact seal you would have essentially the same performance.
> ...


And just because we've gone there - from a respected voice in custom bikes on the BB30 topic:

FAQ's | Kent Eriksen Cycles

To be fair, the stiffness part of the story is slightly different in carbon than metal, but the direction is still consistent.


----------



## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

Again


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

“We could find no measureable performance advantage in ceramic bearing wheels in the real world, but we do notice that if you take a wheel and spin it with your fingers that the ceramic wheels will spin better.”
Sooooo...either he can't measure them? or he can't detect a difference? but he concedes that they spin better with your fingers. What the hell did he measure it with? 
Given that the manufacturers have claims of "600% better..9 times..Yada yada yada...
Well, I am not sure this really advances the argument?


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

forge55b said:


> Again


Forge, You make fun, or want to be funny...because? i hold a different view?
happy day dude...


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gervase said:


> “We could find no measureable performance advantage in ceramic bearing wheels in the real world, but we do notice that if you take a wheel and spin it with your fingers that the ceramic wheels will spin better.”
> Sooooo...either he can't measure them? or he can't detect a difference? but he concedes that they spin better with your fingers. What the hell did he measure it with?
> Given that the manufacturers have claims of "600% better..9 times..Yada yada yada...
> Well, I am not sure this really advances the argument?


do you even read what people write? how the wheel spins without load is irrelevant. it is an awesome gimmick to trick people though.


----------



## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

den bakker said:


> do you even read what people write? how the wheel spins without load is irrelevant. it is an awesome gimmick to trick people though.


Silly rabbit, trolls don't read dissenting opinions


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Gervase said:


> Forge, You make fun, or want to be funny...because? i hold a different view?
> happy day dude...


He's calling you a troll, because as you show, you are either an idiot or a troll.

All you've spewed at us is manufacturer/seller opinion, and then when we provide independent builders (for wheels are others) saying that ceramics aren't worth it, you refuse to believe it and nitpick to use as "evidence" proving that ceramics are better. The wheelbuilders make more money off of ceramics, you know, but they don't because they feel that they're unneccesary.



By the way, as they said, the spinning is caused by thin oil, not the bearings.


----------



## Max09 (May 3, 2011)

So did I waste my $$ buying a ceramic BB?


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Max09 said:


> So did I waste my $$ buying a ceramic BB?


If you wanted an actual performance increase, yup.

Anything you might have felt would be placebo effect.


----------



## Max09 (May 3, 2011)

lolpierandom said:


> if you wanted an actual performance increase, yup.
> 
> Anything you might have felt would be placebo effect.


damm...


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

Max09 said:


> So did I waste my $$ buying a ceramic BB?


No, the best ceramic bearings are better than steel. More round and lighter as a start. The seals or lack there of might cut their life short though by comparison. Although I am not convinced of that having my new DA rear pulley fall apart in my hand when I took it off.

The mention of oil as compared to grease and the differing seals are important. So is the fact that the guys racing at a world class level remove the grease from their bearings. 

You won't feel a performance increase. Just like you won't feel a 1# drop on your over all bike weight either. Or a 5# loss of body weight. But it all adds up one watt and one gram at a time untill it actually does make a difference.. 

Waste? $25 for a new 7900 DA BB with the better seals and less friction as compared to a $250 ceramic BB.....well may be. :mad2:

Hey I have a full ceramic set on one of my bike's drive trains...but not any of my wheels and I can't tell a bit of difference riding. But I like having them none the less just so I know......


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

den bakker said:


> do you even read what people write? how the wheel spins without load is irrelevant. it is an awesome gimmick to trick people though.


Yes....i have read nearly every comment on this thread. Why?...because I want to learn. What have I learn't..apart from the obvious fact that some of the most knowledgeable people, also have some of the biggest egos, which stop them from arguing in a civilised manner, and ensure that they have to in some way...denegrate any one who holds an opposing view.

Also learn't...it seems unanimous even by the detractors, that Ceramic BB spin faster, easier with out load, this almost seems to fall in the realm of FACT.
Also it seems unanimous, even by detractors that it makes NO difference (at worst!!) "no measurable diff"...etc...Therefore the use of a ceramic BB is not going to be detrimental...except to your wallet...(at worst)
Now..i challenge you to read all post's. Secondly I challenge you to consider this. 
Enduro bearings are regarded as amongst the best in the world (the best according to the coach who was against Ceramic) They have a reputation to uphold, it's why the sell so many bearings, as they are considered very good.
Consider also that if a bearing runs better when NOT loaded, it's much more likely to run better with load. At what point does the bearing stop running better? when you going from just spinning it? when you put half your power into it? when you are going fully anaerobic? 
WHO CARES....because...if the good coach can't measure it, why can he not tell? surely if he sees a crank spinning easier, faster when unloaded, can he not measure this? can he not say it spins easier with loads of less than 5kg per....why did/does he not measure this, to explain why bearings that are made rounder, harder, and spin faster, suddenly stop spinning better than other metal bearings that are not likely to ever be as perfect? 
This argument is so STUPID...it really defies logic that it is being forwarded? 
Unless the intracacies of what happens to the bearings when the speed up, ie heat effect,expansion of the metal/ ceramics, the viscosity of the lubricants.. then there really has to be some degree of skepticism shown to a study that claims..."can't measure any difference, but i can see one!!"


Gervase, Lord of the TROLLS, 3rd division of the 82 battalion Knight trolls, heavy armoured division...


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> Silly rabbit, trolls don't read dissenting opinions


rabbits are tasty and the main dessert for us trolls..it's the goblins you have to watch out for..sneak up on you every time..


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Nob said:


> No, the best ceramic bearings are better than steel. More round and lighter as a start. The seals or lack there of might cut their life short though by comparison. Although I am not convinced of that having my new DA rear pulley fall apart in my hand when I took it off.
> 
> The mention of oil as compared to grease and the differing seals are important. So is the fact that the guys racing at a world class level remove the grease from their bearings.
> 
> ...


Yes, Starting to appreciate that bearings that EVERY one says are rounder (more truly) Harder ( 5 times) than steel, and as is agreed by virtually everyone, Spin EASIER< FASTER< with out load, Suddenly for some unexplained reason....transform to NORMAL when you actually ride the bike......

believable. is it not...?


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

*Dude, I actually have ceramic bearings in a bike.* Just telling you what I have found from experience. The only real measurement I care about are my TT times to a 1/100s of a second. Past that who cares? Not me.

You are free to believe anything you want. But the fact is the majority of what you can see is the differenece in lube and the friction of the seal.

As I said I have them in one bike's drive train. BB only on another. Not going to bother to add them to my other bikes. Money isn't the reason. If I saw a improvement I thought worth the $ I would. My Zipp wheels spin just fine on the stand and they are steel bearings.


----------



## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

Gervase said:


> *Consider also that if a bearing runs better when NOT loaded, it's much more likely to run better with load.* At what point does the bearing stop running better? when you going from just spinning it? when you put half your power into it? when you are going fully anaerobic?
> WHO CARES....because...if the good coach can't measure it, why can he not tell? surely if he sees a crank spinning easier, faster when unloaded, can he not measure this? can he not say it spins easier with loads of less than 5kg per....why did/does he not measure this, to explain why bearings that are made rounder, harder, and spin faster, suddenly stop spinning better than other metal bearings that are not likely to ever be as perfect?
> This argument is so STUPID...it really defies logic that it is being forwarded?
> Unless the intracacies of what happens to the bearings when the speed up, ie heat effect,expansion of the metal/ ceramics, *the viscosity of the lubricants.. then there really has to be some degree of skepticism shown to a study that claims..."can't measure any difference, but i can see one!!*"
> ...


First of all, what makes you think that first statement is true? You did read this


Neuvation said:


> Contrary to popular belief, ceramic bearings gain their performance advantage not from being rounder or harder, their advantage comes because they use a thin grease or oil instead of standard grease and a contact seal that has less contact. If you take a stock cartridge bearing and change the grease to oil and use the same low contact seal you would have essentially the same performance.
> Because of this, we just switched our contact seals to have less contact in all of our wheels..


posted earlier in the thread right?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> Yes, Starting to appreciate that bearings that EVERY one says are rounder (more truly) Harder ( 5 times) than steel, and as is agreed by virtually everyone, Spin EASIER< FASTER< with out load, Suddenly for some unexplained reason....transform to NORMAL when you actually ride the bike......
> 
> believable. is it not...?


because, as posted NUMEROUS times, the grease in ceramic bearings is THINNER and the seals are NON-CONTACT. 
this is done ON PURPOSE because if you spent hundreds of $$$ on ceramic bearings and couldn't feel a difference when you spun your wheel, you'd think you'd been ripped off. when loaded, the heavier grease/better seals on 'normal' bearings has no effect on how well your wheel/crank/der pulley spins. NONE. 
as for your claim about world class racers removing grease from bearings, i work for world class road and track racers. world cup, world championships, olympics. we've never removed grease from any bearings. some may, but i've never heard nor seen it. 

one of my closest friends works for a bearing distributor, one we've all heard of. he doesn't use ceramic bearings on any of his bikes, and finds it pretty funny that people spend so much money on them thinking they'll go faster. but, he thanks them for his paycheck.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

When I am able to shell out enough money for a fancy smchancy bike, I will make sure to get steel bearings, as I don't want to deal with the seals on ceramics crapping out 24/7. I'm sure it might (MIGHT) have a different feel, but my steel bearings are fine for me, and it will save me a good 100 bucks or so.

Gervase, you come out as an idiot, flat and simple. You refuse to acknowledge any evidence that we have given you. Bearings without load spinning don't matter, because bearings are supposed to BEAR LOAD. Get that through your thick skull. Unless you happen to have a 10k+ RPM cadence, roundness won't matter. Round is round enough for bikers, since we don't generate blinding speeds on our bikes.

I also don't get why you list hardness as a benefit. It isn't. In fact, it screws up the races, and since ceramic is rather brittle, that's the reason the only "ceramic" bbs there are are actually hybrids, with steel races.

Believable? Well, you certainly aren't.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

lolpierandom said:


> He's calling you a troll, because as you show, you are either an idiot or a troll.


I vote idiot.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Nob said:


> *Dude, I actually have ceramic bearings in a bike.* Just telling you what I have found from experience. The only real measurement I care about are my TT times to a 1/100s of a second. Past that who cares? Not me.
> 
> You are free to believe anything you want. But the fact is the majority of what you can see is the differenece in lube and the friction of the seal.
> 
> As I said I have them in one bike's drive train. BB only on another. Not going to bother to add them to my other bikes. Money isn't the reason. If I saw a improvement I thought worth the $ I would. My Zipp wheels spin just fine on the stand and they are steel bearings.


Nob, I understand, and I accept what you are saying. I can''t or won't argue with that point. If you have had actual experience with them, and you are telling me they do NOT make any difference, this is JUST what I want to know. 
THANK YOU. 
Also thank you for being so straight in your language. You have refrained from calling me any names, or trying to denigrate my DNA or my intelligence, because I disagree, So thank you again. This is how a discussion should proceed. 
From the feed back on this topic, it is clear that alot do not think there is an advantage. Their is arguably NO disadvantage in performance, ie....It did not slow you down. But as you have stated, YOU tried it makes little or NO difference. I too would conclude like you that...Save my money and stick to the conventional.
It's just a pity that others have not been able to just talk about this in an unemotional way, and stick to some friendly informed conversation....sadly letting their insecurities...stuff up a good debate about, well surely a worth while topic.
So I appreciate, and respect your comment. I will therefore take note of other things you say on other threads.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Gervase, you come out as an idiot, flat and simple. (Trolls can only be hurt by comments from the people they respect) 
You refuse to acknowledge any evidence that we have given you. Bearings without load spinning don't matter (WHY ??),
because bearings are supposed to BEAR LOAD. Get that through your thick skull. ((must be the Troll armour) 
Unless you happen to have a 10k+ RPM cadence, roundness won't matter. Round is round enough for bikers, since we don't generate blinding speeds on our bikes. (why not just use little pebbles in the bearings then, they are kind of round?


I also don't get why you list hardness as a benefit. It isn't. In fact, it screws up the races, and since ceramic is rather brittle, that's the reason the only "ceramic" bbs there are are actually hybrids, with steel races.


Believable? Well, you certainly aren't.[/QUOTE]
If you can show why a bearing at low speed, low load, spins faster (why? because of roundness, lubrication..what ever..great. but then it is really UNBELIEVABLE to accept that it suddenly transforms into a dog..under load....UNLESS..you can demonstrate why? 
See loppedormeoon whatever you aka is.....this argument, has brought out some things. Clearly everyone accepts that bearings (ceramic) are noticably easier, more freely spin under load. I am just wanting to learn. Calling me names does not advance this discussion or arguent, does it, YOU.=F...ing.....see what I mean.
Get back to talking about the mechanics of why they do what they do? respect me, and I will respect you..First law for trolls "you get what you give"
Now if you accept what the manufacturers claim, "600 % easier" then they would be out of stock with the rush. If though like some, maybe most are saying, NO difference, then somewhere the truth lies. 
i have learn't they take a lot more maintenance. It appears alot of MTB'ers use them as they do find, with regular maintenance that they last longer. 
I am interested in performance. I am interested in if they really make a difference..or not..I am not interested in stooping to the level of calling people names..it's beneath me. 
So far my post's have been to the contrary, some, just a few have been laced with a bit of sarcasm. but truly, these inane "troll comments" really..do not upset me, as I can only be upset if it's from someone I care about or respect. 
Let's get back to some really good discussions? 
I have emails back from Ceramic suppliers, obviously they are salesmen. I like to research things before I make decisions..what's wrong in Arguing a point? what's wrong in trying to discern WHY? why do these seemingly perfect balls of ceramic, harder than steel, than roll noticeably easier, and freer...suddenly stop that advantage or if correct..slow down to the same speed as the steel edition? Oil? grease? or imagination, perception? The coach measured it? how and what with?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> Gervase, you come out as an idiot, flat and simple. (Trolls can only be hurt by comments from the people they respect)
> You refuse to acknowledge any evidence that we have given you. Bearings without load spinning don't matter (WHY ??),
> because bearings are supposed to BEAR LOAD. Get that through your thick skull. ((must be the Troll armour)
> Unless you happen to have a 10k+ RPM cadence, roundness won't matter. Round is round enough for bikers, since we don't generate blinding speeds on our bikes. (why not just use little pebbles in the bearings then, they are kind of round?
> ...


If you can show why a bearing at low speed, low load, spins faster (why? because of roundness, lubrication..what ever..great. but then it is really UNBELIEVABLE to accept that it suddenly transforms into a dog..under load....UNLESS..you can demonstrate why? 
See loppedormeoon whatever you aka is.....this argument, has brought out some things. Clearly everyone accepts that bearings (ceramic) are noticably easier, more freely spin under load. I am just wanting to learn. Calling me names does not advance this discussion or arguent, does it, YOU.=F...ing.....see what I mean.
Get back to talking about the mechanics of why they do what they do? respect me, and I will respect you..First law for trolls "you get what you give"
Now if you accept what the manufacturers claim, "600 % easier" then they would be out of stock with the rush. If though like some, maybe most are saying, NO difference, then somewhere the truth lies. 
i have learn't they take a lot more maintenance. It appears alot of MTB'ers use them as they do find, with regular maintenance that they last longer. 
I am interested in performance. I am interested in if they really make a difference..or not..I am not interested in stooping to the level of calling people names..it's beneath me. 
So far my post's have been to the contrary, some, just a few have been laced with a bit of sarcasm. but truly, these inane "troll comments" really..do not upset me, as I can only be upset if it's from someone I care about or respect. 
Let's get back to some really good discussions? 
I have emails back from Ceramic suppliers, obviously they are salesmen. I like to research things before I make decisions..what's wrong in Arguing a point? what's wrong in trying to discern WHY? why do these seemingly perfect balls of ceramic, harder than steel, than roll noticeably easier, and freer...suddenly stop that advantage or if correct..slow down to the same speed as the steel edition? Oil? grease? or imagination, perception? The coach measured it? how and what with?[/QUOTE]

i've posted about my experience racing on the track w/ them. i've posted about my experience at pro road races and world cup track races. i've explained why they spin in the stand but how that doesn't matter on the road, as have others. READ THE DAMN POSTS and stop dragging on and on w/ your poorly though out arguments. 
jesus...i'm getting pissed at myself now for replying to this thread.


----------



## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

Boromir said that it is a strange thing that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over such a little thing.

At least he was talking about the One Ring of power. You lot are quibbling over little balls of varying substances. Sheesh!


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Pro racers take lube/oil and run their bearings completely ungreased.

It spins easier.

It also wrecks the bearing much faster.

Guess what ceramics do? They use a thinner oil. Guess what that does? It wrecks the bearing much faster than a steel bearing! Your "pebbles" argument makes no sense. They aren't round in any sense, unless not being jagged constitutes round. Steel bearings are round as they need to be, and no more. Steel bearings CAN be made rounder, but they aren't because IT. ISN'T. NECCESARY.

Also, if you can't spell my username right, you're incredibly stupid, as you can...

copy paste it!

Your inane mind doesn't seem to grasp that being rounder doesn't matter until you hit RPMs in the thousands, being harder is a DIS (read this) DISADVANTAGE, that the "free rolling" is caused by bad seals and thin oil, and that that hardly matters anyways, as the bearings aren't restricting anyone. If your bearings are restricting your power in anyways, your bearings must be filled with sand or something.

An eloquent way to put this is 9 (supposed benefit of ceramics) x 0 (actual restriction caused by bearings) = 0 (any benefit which may come from ceramics, which even if they were better, would still be 0)
Even if ceramics had any benefit (which none has been proven with evidence in this thread), they would give no noticeable improvement over steel bearings.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

lolpierandom said:


> *Pro racers take lube/oil and run their bearings completely ungreased.
> *
> It spins easier.
> 
> ...


i really don't think anyone is doing this...it makes for too much work for already overworked mechanics. team leaders _might_ run bearings w/ light oil for a prologue tt, like today...but i really doubt it. if i had to guess, i'd say that wiggins, evans, sagan, cancellara and maybe 2-3 others might have something special for today only...but that's it. 'normal' pros, on 'normal' road stages? no way...if anything they have bearings packed full of grease to minimize service needs.


----------



## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Gervase said:


> Ceramic bearings MUST be better, otherwise...why would a manufacturer go to the trouble of making one, when you have a huge task of setting up machinery to produce said bearings, production runs, let alone design, marketing, packaging etc.
> I do not accept that they are NOT better, it's just an argument as to how much better they are.


I like Kool-Aid too!

But lets talk bearings. In the bike industry, no one is selling pure ceramic bearings. We just use cheap "hybrid" ceramics that are much easier and less costly to manufacture then a pure ceramic. If we did use pure ceramics, then maybe, just maybe there would be some sort of noticeable difference (other than placebo). But use of these hybrids makes them sound fast, but in reality just boosts the cost and gives you bragging rights. 
So if the placebo is worth a few hundred extra to you, then hell, go for it. If that is the case though, I do have a bridge for sale....


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I like Kool-Aid too!
> 
> But lets talk bearings. In the bike industry, no one is selling pure ceramic bearings. We just use cheap "hybrid" ceramics that are much easier and less costly to manufacture then a pure ceramic. If we did use pure ceramics, then maybe, just maybe there would be some sort of noticeable difference (other than placebo). But use of these hybrids makes them sound fast, but in reality just boosts the cost and gives you bragging rights.
> So if the placebo is worth a few hundred extra to you, then hell, go for it. If that is the case though, I do have a bridge for sale....


Does the bridge come with ceramic bearings?


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

lolpierandom said:


> Does the bridge come with ceramic bearings?


Its probably a Trek bridge.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

tihsepa said:


> Its probably a Trek bridge.


Ah, must also be laterally stiff and vertically compliant then. I guess I'll take it!


----------



## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

Ceramic upgrades will only help if you're replacing an inferior component with them. Ceramic bearings if top quality have the potential of being more perfectly round than steel. The balls if ceramic are harder than steel so if you get hybrid ceramics (ceramic balls with steel races) it'll eventually chew threw the race. I am not sure if bicycle manufacturers use hybrid or full but likely the latter since i have not seen a full ceramic with seals. If you want a longer lasting bb that is just as good take a look at enduro or philwood bb.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

svard75 said:


> Ceramic upgrades will only help if you're replacing an inferior component with them. Ceramic bearings if top quality have the potential of being more perfectly round than steel. The balls if ceramic are harder than steel so if you get hybrid ceramics (ceramic balls with steel races) it'll eventually chew threw the race. I am not sure if bicycle manufacturers use hybrid or full but likely the latter since i have not seen a full ceramic with seals. If you want a longer lasting bb that is just as good take a look at enduro or philwood bb.


Hybrid types are the only ones used.

Roundness beyond what is typically used hardly matters until you hit several thousand RPMs (which if you happen to do, I will worship you)


----------



## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

lolpierandom said:


> Hybrid types are the only ones used.
> 
> Roundness beyond what is typically used hardly matters until you hit several thousand RPMs (which if you happen to do, I will worship you)


You're probably right.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ceramic hybrids are the only thing used in bicycles. most people would break full ceramics when installing them. i have full ceramics in my front track wheel, they were given to me as a test. in this particular hub they press in by hand, so no fear of damaging them during install. honestly the only difference is they're lighter than the stock bearings. the company that gave them to me has tried full ceramic bearings in rear hubs, and they always broken.


----------



## errorunknown (Jun 10, 2012)

Yup,it's all about money, ceramic is hot now and they can sell for a premium


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

i've posted about my experience racing on the track w/ them. i've posted about my experience at pro road races and world cup track races. i've explained why they spin in the stand but how that doesn't matter on the road, as have others. READ THE DAMN POSTS and stop dragging on and on w/ your poorly though out arguments. 
jesus...i'm getting pissed at myself now for replying to this thread.[/QUOTE]

You trying to IMPRESS me with your "world class status"!!! this is suggestive of someone who is overachieving, over compensating, for his personal inadequacy, someone whose posts are "dripping" with sarcasm, and with the strong need you seem to have to put other people DOWN, reinforces the view, that you are emotionally Juvenile.

If you came to this thread or any with an attitude to learn, (listen and see) instead of trying to flex your knowledge, respect for that wisely disseminated knowledge would grow. 

I have read all the post's..and I do NOT respect YOU.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> 9 times 0 is 0. It's not like there is any thing about BB bearings holding back your pedal stroke to begin with.
> 
> do some googling. Ceramic is pretty much a farce when it some to bike part bearings. All you git is a higher price tag.





Gervase said:


> Ceramic bearings MUST be better, otherwise...why would a manufacturer go to the trouble of making one, when you have a huge task of setting up machinery to produce said bearings, production runs, let alone design, marketing, packaging etc.
> *I do not accept that they are NOT better*, it's just an argument as to how much better they are.





Gervase said:


> i've posted about my experience racing on the track w/ them. i've posted about my experience at pro road races and world cup track races. i've explained why they spin in the stand but how that doesn't matter on the road, as have others. READ THE DAMN POSTS and stop dragging on and on w/ your poorly though out arguments.
> jesus...i'm getting pissed at myself now for replying to this thread.


You trying to IMPRESS me with your "world class status"!!! this is suggestive of someone who is overachieving, over compensating, for his personal inadequacy, someone whose posts are "dripping" with sarcasm, and with the strong need you seem to have to put other people DOWN, reinforces the view, that you are emotionally Juvenile.

If you came to this thread or any with an attitude to learn, (listen and see) instead of trying to flex your knowledge, respect for that wisely disseminated knowledge would grow. 

I have read all the post's..and I do NOT respect YOU. [/QUOTE]

you asked for replies from people w/ ceramic bearing experience, i (and numerous others) have provided that. you refuse to believe that a product exists that is more expensive than the product it replaces but is not actually better in any measurable way. you've argued w/ every person that has actually used ceramic bearings (except for one poster, who said they don't make any difference) and you don't have any actual experience w/ them yourself. 
you ripped on me because i told you what level of experience i actually have w/ the product you're sooooo concerned about, but you took that as me 'flexing my knowledge'. you are truly only concerned w/ one thing...pissing people off and getting into arguments. i'm pretty sure you're the only member of this forum that has had a poll started to determine whether you're an idiot or just a troll. you should feel ...
well, i'm not going to get in to that.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> you asked for replies from people w/ ceramic bearing experience, i (and numerous others) have provided that. you refuse to believe that a product exists that is more expensive than the product it replaces but is not actually better in any measurable way. you've argued w/ every person that has actually used ceramic bearings (except for one poster, who said they don't make any difference) and you don't have any actual experience w/ them yourself.
> you ripped on me because i told you what level of experience i actually have w/ the product you're sooooo concerned about, but you took that as me 'flexing my knowledge'. you are truly only concerned w/ one thing...pissing people off and getting into arguments. i'm pretty sure you're the only member of this forum that has had a poll started to determine whether you're an idiot or just a troll. you should feel ...
> well, i'm not going to get in to that.


I don't even know why we bother. If he isn't flat out trolling us, he must be too misguided to comprehend.

Look mate, I'm a critical buyer. When I buy something, it better damn be worth the penny it costs. Why the hell would you even buy something, which if it even worked (there have not even been any posts showing that ceramic bbs do work) would give such a small benefit that you wouldn't notice it anyway? Not to mention all the extra work that comes with hybrids. 100 bucks for increased maintenence, and miniscule if any improvement at all.

Know what 100 bucks gets you? Add that 100 bucks to pretty much any other thing you upgrade (wheel, cockpit, groupset, w/e) and it will give a much more noticeable improvement than what a ceramic BB will get you. Unless you're drowning in money, have thrown all of it at your bike except for a ceramic BB, why would you even want one?

Even then, why would you want one, when there are NO IMPROVEMENTS?

By the way, Cannondale now has this BB50 technology... It's laterally stiff and vertically compliant, you should check it out. 'least that's what the C'dale salesman told meh.


----------



## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

Gervase said:


> i've posted about my experience racing on the track w/ them. i've posted about my experience at pro road races and world cup track races. i've explained why they spin in the stand but how that doesn't matter on the road, as have others. READ THE DAMN POSTS and stop dragging on and on w/ your poorly though out arguments.
> jesus...i'm getting pissed at myself now for replying to this thread.


You trying to IMPRESS me with your "world class status"!!! this is suggestive of someone who is overachieving, over compensating, for his personal inadequacy, someone whose posts are "dripping" with sarcasm, and with the strong need you seem to have to put other people DOWN, reinforces the view, that you are emotionally Juvenile.

If you came to this thread or any with an attitude to learn, (listen and see) instead of trying to flex your knowledge, respect for that wisely disseminated knowledge would grow. 

I have read all the post's..and I do NOT respect YOU. [/QUOTE]

Not sure how many times I must post.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

> CXWrench... "i'm pretty sure you're the only member of this forum that has had a poll started to determine whether you're an idiot or just a troll. you should feel ...
> well, i'm not going to get in to that."


Vindictive & Pathetic...


----------



## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

velodog said:


> I wonder if he's using ceramic runners on his sleigh, enabling him to deliver all those toys to the good children in such a timely fashion?


Best post I have ever seen on RBR.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

forge55b said:


> You trying to IMPRESS me with your "world class status"!!! this is suggestive of someone who is overachieving, over compensating, for his personal inadequacy, someone whose posts are "dripping" with sarcasm, and with the strong need you seem to have to put other people DOWN, reinforces the view, that you are emotionally Juvenile.
> 
> If you came to this thread or any with an attitude to learn, (listen and see) instead of trying to flex your knowledge, respect for that wisely disseminated knowledge would grow.
> 
> I have read all the post's..and I do NOT respect YOU.


Not sure how many times I must post.








[/QUOTE]

Troll..."an ugly cave-dwelling creature depicted as either a giant or a dwarf."


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Gervase said:


> Not sure how many times I must post.
> 
> 
> Troll..."an ugly cave-dwelling creature depicted as either a giant or a dwarf."


Prove it.

I never said you were a troll. I think you are but I never said it.


----------



## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

I can't believe the level of rudeness, immaturity and vitriol that this thread has generated. Especially the rudeness and plain nastiness aimed at Gervase.

So what if he believes that ceramic bearings are superior in most bike applications. So do most of the big, established, bike component manufacturers. Yeah, go ahead and pipe in with the "manufacturers are just pushing big ticket items" argument. The marketplace is the final arbiter of whether a product is worth the money or not. If the product does not work as advertised, then no matter how much the manufacturers push it, it will eventually fail. 

You guys remind of me the Lilliputians in Swift's Gulliver's Travels. The big-enders(who believed that eggs must be cracked from the big end) were willing to go to battle with the small-enders (who believed that eggs should be cracked at the small end). In the end, the whole argument is pointless because no one is going to be able to convince the other side.This is all an exercise in mental masturbation. 

So use whatever equipment you want, can afford and makes you happy. Worry about what equipment you ride with and let the rest of the world ride with whatever they want to ride.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Popular sentiment does not necessarily equate to objective empirical data.


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

bottecchia_eja said:


> I can't believe the level of rudeness, immaturity and vitriol that this thread has generated. Especially the rudeness and plain nastiness aimed at Gervase.
> 
> So what if he believes that ceramic bearings are superior in most bike applications. So do most of the big, established, bike component manufacturers. Yeah, go ahead and pipe in with the "manufacturers are just pushing big ticket items" argument. The marketplace is the final arbiter of whether a product is worth the money or not. If the product does not work as advertised, then no matter how much the manufacturers push it, it will eventually fail.
> 
> ...


He asked for an opinion, he refused to listen to those which were not in agreement with his.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

lolpierandom said:


> He asked for an opinion, he refused to listen to those which were not in agreement with his.


You see...here you go again....it was not a matter of NOT "istening", I was ridiculed for daring to disagree...


----------



## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

lolpierandom said:


> He asked for an opinion, he refused to listen to those which were not in agreement with his.


And because he disagreed, is that reason to insult him?


----------



## lolpierandom (May 19, 2012)

bottecchia_eja said:


> And because he disagreed, is that reason to insult him?


When he refuses to listen to professionals, evidence, and third party studies, while providing manufacturer info to back up his claim, it makes him look like an idiot, so yes.


----------



## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

lolpierandom said:


> When he refuses to listen to professionals, evidence, and third party studies, while providing manufacturer info to back up his claim, it makes him look like an idiot, so yes.


I have not seen any independent, peer-reviewed, studies cited here. I saw a cite to the FB page of one wheel maker and I have read the opinions of a "professional" whose bona fides have not been clearly established. 

On the other hand, I have read the research results of a manufacturer like Campy. Their researc indicates that ceramic bearings in hubs and BB reduce friction and increase power output. I have not read their research methodology, so I suppose their results can be nothing but marketing puffery. But if their ceramic bearing hubs and BB do not work as advertised, they will eventually be dropped by consumers. Consumers may be sheep, as some have claimed here, but eventually even sheep get tired of pouring good money after products that don't work.

My road bikes are fully equipped with Campy Record 11 speed, including ceramic bearing in the BB and hubs. I have been riding for nearly 50 years, that's right I am an oldie. I have ridden nearly all kinds of bikes-very cheap ones and very expensive ones. In my own personal experience ceramic hubs and BB work, so I don't mind spending the money.

Finally, even if Gervase has refused to accept the "wisdom" offered by some of you guys, that is no reason to insult him. The mark of an educated and mature person is that he can disagree with others, but do it in a civil manner and without resorting to name calling. 

Peace out!


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)




----------



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

danl1 said:


> I find it interesting that so far, all of your 'evidence' has been sales material. From ceramic-bearing sellers.
> 
> I used to have a post here that linked to a white paper from one of the major manufacturers of the balls used. It went into great detail showing exactly how ceramic bearings were 'better.' Unfortunately, that company sold that part of its business, and the new company didn't maintain the link.
> 
> ...


Repped ya. By far the best explanation I've ever seen on this topic.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Ceramic bottom bracket - checked
hubs - checked
pulleys checked

one question, has anyone in the bicycle industry tried to sell ceramic headsets yet? They need to get moving in this category!:idea:


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

bottecchia_eja said:


> I have not seen any independent, peer-reviewed, studies cited here. I saw a cite to the FB page of one wheel maker and I have read the opinions of a "professional" whose bona fides have not been clearly established.
> 
> On the other hand, I have read the research results of a manufacturer like Campy. Their researc indicates that ceramic bearings in hubs and BB reduce friction and increase power output. I have not read their research methodology, so I suppose their results can be nothing but marketing puffery. But if their ceramic bearing hubs and BB do not work as advertised, they will eventually be dropped by consumers. Consumers may be sheep, as some have claimed here, but eventually even sheep get tired of pouring good money after products that don't work.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your "balanced" comments, the only one who has posted a good post is Dan1 with why I am "wrong". It's good to see your post's too, which still intrigues me about Ceramic's.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

danl1 said:


> I find it interesting that so far, all of your 'evidence' has been sales material. From ceramic-bearing sellers.
> 
> I used to have a post here that linked to a white paper from one of the major manufacturers of the balls used. It went into great detail showing exactly how ceramic bearings were 'better.' Unfortunately, that company sold that part of its business, and the new company didn't maintain the link.
> 
> ...


Thanks for a good post.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Gervase, I may have missed the post but have you upgraded your BB bearings yet?
Is the improvement as big as you expected or more so or less so? I'd be interested in your experiences.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

bottecchia_eja said:


> I have not seen any independent, peer-reviewed, studies cited here. I saw a cite to the FB page of one wheel maker and I have read the opinions of a "professional" whose bona fides have not been clearly established.
> 
> On the other hand, I have read the research results of a manufacturer like Campy. Their researc indicates that ceramic bearings in hubs and BB reduce friction and increase power output. I have not read their research methodology, so I suppose their results can be nothing but marketing puffery. But if their ceramic bearing hubs and BB do not work as advertised, they will eventually be dropped by consumers. Consumers may be sheep, as some have claimed here, but eventually even sheep get tired of pouring good money after products that don't work.
> 
> ...



Critital unbiased peer reviews, and by peer reviews, I'm referring to sort of peer reviews that are published in scientific journals by research PhD's at the universities (and I don't count PhDs working for a private company as peer reviews)... you will not find it in an industry with little importance to society. No university or no institution will ever going to get the fundings to do a study on bicycle bottom bracket. Perhaps this tells us that ceramic bearings in such an application is not important that the idea warrants any research (hence, no peer reviews). However, there are many scientific publication on the property of ceramics and its application, these sort of reviews exist mainly in the aerospace, engineering, and chemical domains. So if you are demanding to see peer reviews, then you will NOT going to see much. But you should consider that the ABSENT of such reviews means that the application of ceramic in bicycle bb is of LOW or insignificant consequence. 

Furthermore, the arguments from those who are anti-ceramic is not that ceramic does not have better rolling properties than steel, but that given the operating environment, i.e in a LOW RPM and dirty condition, the cost of using ceramic is just not worth it. While there testimonies are not scientific critical peer reviews (and like I have stated, you will not find such reviews in a relatively unimportant industry and unimportant application)... you simply cannot discount them. If the gain is truly measurable in any significant and meaningful ways, wouldn't you think that there will be MORE people swearing by ceramic bb than not?? As it stands, most guys don't think so based on their experience (is there experience not consider a data point too?).

And I do not for once second believe wholly in what Campy or any component manufacturers have to say about the merits of ceramic bearings in a bb either. It is like believing in the research and data of a drug company trying to sell you the drug. Can you say sucker?


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

velodog said:


> Gervase, I may have missed the post but have you upgraded your BB bearings yet?
> Is the improvement as big as you expected or more so or less so? I'd be interested in your experiences.


Most people who dish out money for a product will say positive things about them. To say negative things would be to admit to their initial lack of research. And then there is also the ego factor, most people like to think they have made a sound financial decision. Judging on how Gervase has adamantly determined to buy the product, I seriously doubt that he will come back here and say anything less than "Ceramic bb is worth the money, I can feel faster significantly".

What will be interesting is if Gervase post a certifiable race time of when he was using steel bearing bb versus ceramic bb. But I reckon we will not going to see such comparison. So in the end, this thread will end up as "just another thread about ceramic bb", with nothing to show for, except that the majority of posters feel that it is not worth the money. Internet debate at its best!


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

i'm 99% sure there was one a while ago...if it has bearings, you can install ceramic replacements. because as we all(tongue firmly in cheek) know, ceramic bearings weren't developed just for the bicycle industry no matter what some people think. RWC actually sells Enduro ceramic h/s bearings...they're ceramic hybrids, an angular contact configuration. RWC doesn't recommend ceramic bearings for rotating parts (hubs, bb's, pulleys), oddly enough (smart guys they are) but they DO like them for headsets. i would think the harder balls would pit the steel races even quicker than steel balls...but i could always be wrong.


----------



## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

> "What will be interesting is if Gervase post a certifiable race time of when he was using steel bearing bb versus ceramic bb."


We sorta discussed this previous. ceramic BB in a track bike and no difference in times...and too short of distance to measure the time difference imo.

Not likely you will ever see that data from anyone. If a new Cervello S5's frame will save me 5 minutes on a 230 mile ride..by just the better aero dynamics of the frame where is a ceramic BB going to fit into that? Likely less time saved there than holding out for one less piss stop during the day....seriously.

I got them, I like them but I aint likely to be buying any more.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> No university or no institution will ever going to get the fundings to do a study on bicycle bottom bracket


Maybe in old SAE journals or something similar you could find papers on bearings, with data relevant to bicycles. Not in engine bearings but maybe suspension or wheel bearings. 
There is little published research on bicycle design. The best places to look are patent applications, because they often explain the rationale behind a design.


> And I do not for once second believe wholly in what Campy or any component manufacturers have to say about the merits of ceramic bearings in a bb either


A really good design was that sealed BB made by SKF, with a roller bearing. 
I haven't seen one in years, but they were popular in Europe with Randonneurs. Campy use their CULT bearings to differentiate themselves, it's a branding exercise more than a technological acheivement.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> i really don't think anyone is doing this...it makes for too much work for already overworked mechanics. team leaders _might_ run bearings w/ light oil for a prologue tt, like today...but i really doubt it. if i had to guess, i'd say that wiggins, evans, sagan, cancellara and maybe 2-3 others might have something special for today only...but that's it. 'normal' pros, on 'normal' road stages? no way...if anything they have bearings packed full of grease to minimize service needs.


Back when Six Day racers used regular hubs I saw lots use what looked like gasoline or very thin oil for lube. Some also took the dust caps off the hubs. But they were indoors in a clean environment, and the hubs were literally torn apart daily.
Look what fancy equipment did for Tony Martin in the prologue...
Like the Campy ad said, "To finish first, first you have to finish". No point riding some piece of bike bling that's going to break on you at the worst possible time. Most pros ride very conservative stuff, ie alloy bars/stems. Most bike geeks would turn their nose up at Cavendish's bar/stem combo.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

velodog said:


> Gervase, I may have missed the post but have you upgraded your BB bearings yet?
> Is the improvement as big as you expected or more so or less so? I'd be interested in your experiences.


No, I have refrained from upgrading. Given the amount of guys who have said no appreiciable difference, and I think Dan1 post on the subject, I am inclined to hold off for the time being. 
However, the cost difference is not vast (well this is subjective) but I have seen prices for Enduro ceramic bearings being about twice the price. 
I will do more research, and this forum was part of that. I will post back here if I do get one, which I am thinking to do on a new bike. I got the frame very cheap so it might be worth trying a ceramic bracket on that.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> Most people who dish out money for a product will say positive things about them. To say negative things would be to admit to their initial lack of research. And then there is also the ego factor, most people like to think they have made a sound financial decision. Judging on how Gervase has adamantly determined to buy the product, I seriously doubt that he will come back here and say anything less than "Ceramic bb is worth the money, I can feel faster significantly".
> 
> What will be interesting is if Gervase post a certifiable race time of when he was using steel bearing bb versus ceramic bb. But I reckon we will not going to see such comparison. So in the end, this thread will end up as "just another thread about ceramic bb", with nothing to show for, except that the majority of posters feel that it is not worth the money. Internet debate at its best!


Your correct I think that perhaps it's hard for people to admit that they are wrong. It's equally likely that someone would also use ceramics, and NEVER admit that they DO make a difference (if they discovered that) also...as again, not wanting to admit they got it wrong. 
This whole thread, just got dumped on by a few individuals who did not like my post's....perhaps they are more right, than I about ceramic's. I never claimed to know much about them I posted what the manufacturers said, and got slated for doing so. That's Ok, I can handle this. 
unfortunately though, the argument was not presented in a balanced manner, insecurities and egos got in the way. Still I think this thread has produced some positive things, and I have contact some manufacturers and been able to talk to some locals to gain more info. I dont' think that we will see ceramics go away..improvements in seals perhaps will be a game changer. I know now that MTBers use them and think they are great, as alot of these guys strip their bikes anyway, so it's nothing to do this maintenance, and their experience seems to suggest that with the regular maintenance that they do, regardless of the bearing type. the Ceramics last the best.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Gervase said:


> No, I have refrained from upgrading. Given the amount of guys who have said no appreiciable difference, and I think Dan1 post on the subject, I am inclined to hold off for the time being.
> However, the cost difference is not vast (well this is subjective) but I have seen prices for Enduro ceramic bearings being about twice the price.
> I will do more research, and this forum was part of that. I will post back here if I do get one, which I am thinking to do on a new bike. I got the frame very cheap so it might be worth trying a ceramic bracket on that.


you are correct about the Enduro prices being pretty low. the headset bearings i mentioned in that post were only twice as expensive as the steel bearings, $16 vs $32...which is not bad at all. if you could get their BB bearings in ceramic hybrid for $40 instead of the $20 you pay for the normal bearings i'd say it would be worth it to try it out and see if they offer any advantage. i'd pop the seals off and fill the cartridge w/ grease first, to maximize durability. i'm pretty sure they're still more expensive than that, but prices could come down in the future.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> you are correct about the Enduro prices being pretty low. the headset bearings i mentioned in that post were only twice as expensive as the steel bearings, $16 vs $32...which is not bad at all. if you could get their BB bearings in ceramic hybrid for $40 instead of the $20 you pay for the normal bearings i'd say it would be worth it to try it out and see if they offer any advantage. i'd pop the seals off and fill the cartridge w/ grease first, to maximize durability. i'm pretty sure they're still more expensive than that, but prices could come down in the future.


You know, that was a nice post...:thumbsup:


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Gervase said:


> You know, that was a nice post...:thumbsup:


Yes it was.

Cxwrench isnt an idiot you know.  :thumbsup:

Gervase, keep us updated on what you do. Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

tihsepa said:


> Yes it was.
> 
> Cxwrench isnt an idiot you know.  :thumbsup:
> 
> Gervase, keep us updated on what you do. Inquiring minds want to know.


I never said he was an idiot, I just did not approve of "approach"...never pays to take things personally, it stops us from listening, seeing, learning.

Will do, I have an inquiring mind too. this whole thread has been very revealing and I have learn't alot from alot of people. CxWrench, Dan1, bottecchia_eja, and others. While personal comments have not helped, we are at the end of it, the same.

Which is passionate cyclists all wanting to improve and do better, all enjoying our selves in this shared passion. 
Not sure just when I will try the Ceramic bearings, but I do think they may be the future, if things like Seal's can be improved, who knows (with out wanting to cause further argument) i think any one who read's this thread from start to finish, will learn, ultimately that's good. 
One thing about the human race, is we often are never satisfied, this is the reason we often try to improve...our future then offers more. Cheers everyone.:aureola:


----------



## Rick Draper (Jan 17, 2012)




----------

