# Two Texas Masters racers busted



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Two Texas masters snared by RaceClean anti-doping program | VeloNews.com



> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency’s (USADA) increased testing of masters amateur cyclists continues to produce results. This week, USADA announced that Kimberly Ciolli of Austin, Texas, and Robert Baatz of Lewisville, Texas accepted sanctions for failed anti-doping tests.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I know both of these people. 
I have stood on a podium with Baatz, he won, I was 3rd. 
Dopers suck.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Creakyknees said:


> I know both of these people.
> I have stood on a podium with Baatz, he won, I was 3rd.
> Dopers suck.


I guess you were second now. 
I tried helping a 60 plus master get his bike back together after a crash. I would have liked to have attributed his aggressive and surly nature to post crash adrenaline but I'm going with too much T and diabanol

I think USAC should set up a surprise tent @ some events regionally and test the entire field just to get a baseline


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

A certain percentage of people have to win, and they'll do just about anything to do it.
Just last weekend, in a local TT, a rider buzzed passed me.....with another rider on his wheel. A hundred yards up, they rotated positions. (This wasn't a TTT) I reported their numbers, but I guess that there wasn't anybody else ratting them out.....Made me pizzed.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

They both won their respective events, which made me wonder how far into the fields they went with the testing. I'm not familiar with the Tour of Corsicana or how big it is, but Tulsa Tough is a fairly well-known event. Were these targeted tests, or just something for the winners?


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

Alaska Mike said:


> They both won their respective events, which made me wonder how far into the fields they went with the testing. I'm not familiar with the Tour of Corsicana or how big it is, but Tulsa Tough is a fairly well-known event. Were these targeted tests, or just something for the winners?


Not sure, but probably just the podium finishers were tested.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

Corsicana is early season but a pretty well attended event that is growing in prestige and popularity. Had team-mates there, but I don't know what ended up going down testing wise.

Tulsa Tough did both winner and quite a few 'at random.' I was there and they kept announcing it that you needed to check the board to see if your number was to be tested. I don't personally know anyone tested, but there were quite a few in many fields that were tested. 

Wonder if they will do Gateway Labor day?

Hopefully the currently strategy of primarily testing BIG events wont just cause the dopers to skip those events. Time will tell.

and as creaky said. Dopers suck!


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

What if you get popped because you have a 'script? 

With masters who have dwindling natural T levels and the doc gives you a 'script should you be exempt? Male HRT is becoming more prevalent and not just with athletes. It has been mainstream with women for decades.

Serious question.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

For non-competitive amateurs, there's a TUE--therapeutic exemption for most things, even T now. You have to have the TUE prior to competing (and thus being tested). For competitive amateurs and Pros there are TUEs for some things, but not for T and EPO and the like.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

The very, very experienced woman cyclist who popped is... married to a sports and family medicine doctor who used to be a racer himself, according to the interweb.

And the USADA release says: Ciolli argued that the failed test was the result of a prescription medication and an over-the-counter product, taken under the guidance of a physician."

Hard to tell much bout that one without USADA being more clear about the circumstances. On one hand, the release almost sounds like it was reluctant to hit her, softening its usual tone a bit, wringing its hands about the sad lack of a TUE. Unclear which item was in the prescription and which was in a supplement or over the counter medicine.....Yet she seems like she could scarcely have been better equipped to understand the issues involved in any prescription involving either of those two things.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

Aadub said:


> What if you get popped because you have a 'script?
> 
> With masters who have dwindling natural T levels and the doc gives you a 'script should you be exempt? Male HRT is becoming more prevalent and not just with athletes. It has been mainstream with women for decades.
> 
> Serious question.


AFAIK, female HRT isn't banned because it isn't performance enhancing. T is banned. A 'script from your doctor is irrelevant.

Your level of T is supposed to dwindle. It's called aging.


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## fiziks (Jul 22, 2016)

I read an article several months ago that detailed how LA did it and what dopers were doing now. The article also said that the internet has inadvertently ushered in a whole new age of doping. It said drugs are readily available on the internet (and no, I have not verified this). And the article suggested that doping was increasing in not only the amateur ranks, but even in non-competitive events (bragging rights apparently so a rider could say they've done their first century or kept up with their boss on a group ride). 

The article also discussed motivation. Yes some people just have to win. But some people just don't want to come in last. It is easy to assume that those competing at the highest levels are doping, but there are a growing number of riders who are just trying to make it to the next level or are trying to keep their position on a team. If they lose their job on the team, or can't make it onto a pro team, the only thing they have to fall back on is flipping burgers back home.

I wish I could find that article again.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

If you find the article, please PM it to me and post it for others. 

Additionally, the concepts you talk about are discussed in the documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster which (IMO) covers some of the key themes in doping, the desire to win, the consequences of that desire, and how self rationalization and confirmation bias cloud evidence based approaches.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Aadub said:


> What if you get popped because you have a 'script?
> 
> With masters who have dwindling natural T levels and the doc gives you a 'script should you be exempt? Male HRT is becoming more prevalent and not just with athletes. It has been mainstream with women for decades.
> 
> Serious question.


Then you should get banned even longer for being even more stupid.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Corsicana is a standard issue grassroots small time local stage race. Nothing major about it, and nowhere near the scale of Tulsa Tough. I won $50 and a small wood plaque for 3rd on GC. Total race prize list was maybe $5k if that. 

Baatz was tested 3 times that i know of. GC 1st in 2014, apparently he passed. GC 1st and also Crit 1st, two separate tests, in 2016. I guess one or both of those popped him. 

In 2016, they announced that USADA was onsite as we stood on the start line of the crit (after having already done the morning TT) - I like that approach as it makes it more difficult to quietly disappear from the race. They (as I recall) tested stage winners and GC and a few randoms. Not all categories were tested, all I know for sure is Masters and the P12's. Maybe Women Open but can't recall.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Aadub said:


> What if you get popped because you have a 'script?
> 
> With masters who have dwindling natural T levels and the doc gives you a 'script should you be exempt? Male HRT is becoming more prevalent and not just with athletes. It has been mainstream with women for decades.
> 
> Serious question.


It is a good question. What exactly did these and other masters get busted for?

I don't race and know little of amateur racing but your question is legit and how can HRT be determined to be illegal? Blood levels of testosterone or IGF-1?

What about Thyroid hormone or insulin?

I don't prescribe HRT but co manage patients all well over 40 and most late 50's - late 60's on HRT. It's not a big part of my practice but it's dozens of patients over the years and getting bigger every year. The common MD supervised Anti aging protocol includes testosterone, HGH, Thyroid, Hcg and an aromatase inhibitor. I also have patients that do the "Bro Science" black market sources. Due to the extreme danger and legality of the latter I highly discourage and advise against this approach but I have seen the blood work of these amateur endocrinologists.

I've seen pre and post blood work and not sure what doping tests look for, if it's blood levels of testosterone or thyroid hormone, the MD supervised approach is to balance levels to acceptable norm, i.e. normal thyroid range (male and female) and testosterone range between 600-800 (males 50's-70).

To put that in perspective, my blood thyroid is in range and testosterone (61 yo male) ranges from 450-500 not on TRT or thyroid meds. I get my blood done twice a year. I have some patients late 50's with full natty 800 testosterone and some 30 yo males under 200 testosterone. I have some 50-60yo patients full on HRT that get to 600-700 testosterone and normal thyroid. They are taking .5-.7ml testosterone weekly, twice weekly Hcg and thyroid daily to get those levels.

Do they test for "exogenous" testosterone? Well that's not a good test as the exogenous test is gone in about 4-5 days.

I have no experience with EPO or Clen but think they can easily be detected.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

BacDoc said:


> It is a good question. What exactly did these and other masters get busted for?
> 
> I don't race and know little of amateur racing but your question is legit and how can HRT be determined to be illegal? Blood levels of testosterone or IGF-1?
> 
> ...


Here is a good story on amauter doping from Velo News. Since then, some things have changed. 

Here's USA Cycling on non-national (non-competetive) masters and requests for TUEs. And here's USADA on non-national athletes. USA Cycling has a further set of rules for Recreational Competitor--see the USA Cycling link. 

Basically, if you're old, haven't been popped for doping in the past, don't win, don't compete in national, international, or regional events with 50+ fields, don't come in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd you can get a TUE before or after the fact.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

vagabondcyclist said:


> Here is a good story on amauter doping from Velo News. Since then, some things have changed.
> 
> Here's USA Cycling on non-national (non-competetive) masters and requests for TUEs. And here's USADA on non-national athletes. USA Cycling has a further set of rules for Recreational Competitor--see the USA Cycling link.
> 
> Basically, if you're old, haven't been popped for doping in the past, don't win, don't compete in national, international, or regional events with 50+ fields, don't come in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd you can get a TUE before or after the fact.


Great links and your summary of TUE is very good. Also answers my question about how they would test for exogenous testosterone. The Velo News link about the email exchange shows how they get the circumstantial evidence on a tip.

Still leaves a lot of opportunity for those who are cheating but flying testers to the dudes house out of competition is definitely they way to catch these guys.

Another point I'd like to make is the real benefits of doping are really exaggerated in the competitors eyes compared to what I've seen clinically. The masters racer in that Velo News link is a great example of that. During the email exchange he repeatedly states that he's not making the gains he thought he should and is pressing the double agent for info on other PED's to get the gains he wants. The dude is already on most of the major PED's and he doesn't notice much improvement. He does say he has more power but gained 10lbs from the anabolics, but that doesn't translate to performance gains.

Besides that, there are good "responders" but there are many more bad "responders" in the 50+ group. I can tell you between side effects and some basic physiologic differences in humans, maybe 20-25% of patients on anti aging HRT end up with some major issues. I've seen blood pressure spikes, prostate issues, liver enzyme spikes, kidney function compromised and behavioral issues (roid rage does manifest in some). I've seen the most gains in the body building/weight lifting/cross fit patients, but even there just being on the gear without hard work in the gym shows no noticeable benefit. In other sports, such as cycling and running, I've seen little performance gains from guys that were on really good protocols. I've ridden with some of these guys and can say objectively that genetics, training, nutrition and hydration play such a far bigger role that a drug regimen at its best is insignificant to actual performance in the 50+ group.

I guess my point is (strictly from clinical observations on the older athletic patients) if you're a masters racer looking for performance gains I wouldn't gamble the health risks of a doping program. You would be better off with a good coach and training program, nutritional guidance and hard work. 

For the pros who's job depends on stage wins, dragging the team up the mountains, crashing hard then getting back in the race and carrying 20lbs of water from team car and doing this more hours than a real job, yeah doping will keep you in the race and on the team.

Cat 1 master who never makes the podium - doping is not going to put that rider on the podium IMHO


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## yogidabear (Mar 4, 2014)

Why do we care about amateur doping? The costs to do the proper testing are only going to hurt participation in amateur bike racing all the more. 

For amateurs, make it wide open. The reality is that the money poured into equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc are also big factors in winning at the amateur level. Why not add meds to that list and be done with it? If it matters that much to a person to dope at the amateur level, more power to them. At least give it a try - allow amateurs to dope. Seriously.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Yeah, seriously. Just let amateurs dope themselves. Nevermind the myriad of health consequences. Nevermind people just straight up DYING. 

Yes, very socially responsible. Such a great idea. And hey, way to make sport fair for everyone. 

How awesome to think that a seventeen year old could have that conversation with a cat 1. "Just a little HGH and EPO and I could be as fast as you!". 

Brilliance.

And actually, no. The cost of letting rampant doping run unabated is what would kill amateur racing. I've raced over a dozen dudes that have been popped. Really takes something away from what you're accomplishing as well as what others are doing when drugs come into play.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

BacDoc said:


> You would be better off with a good coach and training program, nutritional guidance and hard work.


I can't imagine that top level racers who might be inclined to cheat aren't already doing all of those things.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

yogidabear said:


> Why do we care about amateur doping? The costs to do the proper testing are only going to hurt participation in amateur bike racing all the more.
> 
> For amateurs, make it wide open. The reality is that the money poured into equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc are also big factors in winning at the amateur level. Why not add meds to that list and be done with it? If it matters that much to a person to dope at the amateur level, more power to them. At least give it a try - allow amateurs to dope. Seriously.


**** that idea. Sorry I like racing and Im good enough to be compedative and have fun clean, with what your saying some ****ing cheater gets to take away my enjoyment because "let em cheat". Whats next "hey Im getting dropped I'll just sit out a few laps and jump back in, because its not fair that I can't win".


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## yogidabear (Mar 4, 2014)

Is it fair if you can afford top notch equipment? Coaching? Nutrition? Training facilities? 

Is it OK to take some performance enhancing supplements while others are deemed not OK? 

Doping can be dangerous. True. So can bike racing, as are the eating disorders found in pro and amateur bike racing. We don't police either of those and no one is making much of a fuss. If doping were OK, then it's in the same space. 

For the record, I think doping in amateur sports is absolutely ridiculous. At least the pros have a lot of money on the line. Amateurs have what? Bragging rights?


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## AlphaDogCycling (Sep 18, 2011)

So do you allow all amateurs to dope? Only those over a certain age?

Then what happens at Nationals / international competition where UCI / WADA rules govern?

Allowing doping is just plain stupid, and would kill amateur cycling.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

yogidabear said:


> Why do we care about amateur doping? The costs to do the proper testing are only going to hurt participation in amateur bike racing all the more.
> 
> For amateurs, make it wide open. The reality is that the money poured into equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc are also big factors in winning at the amateur level. Why not add meds to that list and be done with it? If it matters that much to a person to dope at the amateur level, more power to them. At least give it a try - allow amateurs to dope. Seriously.


As someone who works with college-aged cyclists, I can think of lots of reasons. One being, I rely on the older racers and fast club riders in the area to help teach young folks about cycling, racing, and life. I really don't want the young folks I work with (some who have competed at the national level) to think that doping is a viable option for getting fast. I want them to learn good habits--nutrition, consistent work, recovery, and most importantly that in cycling you get what you give. And really, I want the young folks to know they're capable of a lot more than they think are, but that they have to work for it. I do this with my students in the classroom and with the cyclists I work with.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

yogidabear said:


> Is it fair if you can afford top notch equipment? Coaching? Nutrition? Training facilities?
> 
> Is it OK to take some performance enhancing supplements while others are deemed not OK?
> 
> ...


Nothing is absolutely fair, no. But that doesn't mean we don't abandon being reasonable as human beings. Allowing drug use would only make the difference between the career masters and average joe racers just having fun that much wider. Hell I think anyone that is that much of a wanker is already using something anyways.

And for the record I don't think super bikes, coaches and nutritionists really matter all that much for the vast majority of guys. I know some super wealthy guys with the latest and greatest equipment and coaches but can't race their way through a cat 5 field on a windy day. If you don't ride the bike a lot it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it. And I'm not saying coaches, equipment and nutritionist are bad things just that riding your bike a **** ton is cheaper and easier and will get results 100% of the time.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

yogidabear said:


> Is it fair if you can afford top notch equipment? Coaching? Nutrition? Training facilities?
> 
> Is it OK to take some performance enhancing supplements while others are deemed not OK?
> 
> ...


What the **** are you going on about? Top notch equipment? Coaching? Nutrition? They're comparable to illegal drugs?

You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

woodys737 said:


> And for the record I don't think super bikes, coaches and nutritionists really matter all that much for the vast majority of guys. I know some super wealthy guys with the latest and greatest equipment and coaches but can't race their way through a cat 5 field on a windy day. If you don't ride the bike a lot it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it. And I'm not saying coaches, equipment and nutritionist are bad things just that riding your bike a **** ton is cheaper and easier and will get results 100% of the time.


Exactly. 

I ride a cheap bike with al wheels, don't have a coach, work a full time job, eat junk food all the time and am still a nationally competitive cat 1. And I got there by wearing the rubber off my tires a mile at a time for 10 plus years. 

And dudes that actually have legit talent make me look like I'm out for a Sunday cruise. 

No drugs necessary. None of that other stuff, either.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

yogidabear said:


> Is it fair if you can afford top notch equipment? Coaching? Nutrition? Training facilities?


But I don't have top notch equipment, or coaching etc.



yogidabear said:


> Is it OK to take some performance enhancing supplements while others are deemed not OK?


That's why we have banned supplements list



yogidabear said:


> Doping can be dangerous. True. So can bike racing, as are the eating disorders found in pro and amateur bike racing. We don't police either of those and no one is making much of a fuss. If doping were OK, then it's in the same space.


Bullshit. Doping enhances your performance



yogidabear said:


> For the record, I think doping in amateur sports is absolutely ridiculous. At least the pros have a lot of money on the line. Amateurs have what? Bragging rights?


Right then why would you say let em dope?


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## yogidabear (Mar 4, 2014)

32and3cross said:


> Right then why would you say let em dope?


Because, like the war on drugs is a lost cause, so is the war on doping. 

If I find a supplement not on the banned list that boosts my performance significantly, am I cheating?


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

You mean like Caffeine ?


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Migen21 said:


> I can't imagine that top level racers who might be inclined to cheat aren't already doing all of those things.


Exactly!

My point was the health risks will exceed any performance benefits that doping at the masters level cycling would provide. If you have 2 cat 1 racers that both have good coaching and nutrition and train hard but only 1 is doping, from what I've seen, there will be little difference between the 2. The one who has the better training will beat the doper more than not and things like strategy mindset and luck play major role in winning races.

Sports like body building, CrossFit, power lifting, yes the aging athlete will see major performance gains with PEDs. Competitive edge is huge here.

in the amateur cycling community I would think the shame and damage to the cyclists rep is far more painful than any fine or ban. At the pro level it's a different story when your caught doing something everybody else is doing to some degree.

I'm sure the great majority of amateurs are racing clean. Testing out of competition and surprise visits will help to keep it that way. Testing only at races still allow as the best cheaters to continue cheating.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

yogidabear said:


> Because, like the war on drugs is a lost cause, so is the war on doping.
> 
> If I find a supplement not on the banned list that boosts my performance significantly, am I cheating?


Technically no you would not be so knock yourself out.

And its not a lost cause some folks are get caught which serves to deter others. While I realize plenty slip through the net Im not interested in the idea that anything goes I faind it sad that you are.


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## yogidabear (Mar 4, 2014)

32and3cross said:


> Technically no you would not be so knock yourself out.
> 
> And its not a lost cause some folks are get caught which serves to deter others. While I realize plenty slip through the net Im not interested in the idea that anything goes I faind it sad that you are.


I find it sad that we've come up with arbitrary rules that are hard and expensive to enforce. 

In other sports where there are banned substance lists, it can be a significant advantage to get certain surgeries which are deemed OK. Endurance sports highlight PEDs because it's the easiest to see the results. PEDs are likely abused in other sports like basketball and soccer, but are harder to see the impact.

What is deemed "OK" today vs yesterday vs tomorrow is odd to me when it comes to performance enhancing substances and techniques.


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## SNS1938 (Aug 9, 2013)

yogidabear said:


> What is deemed "OK" today vs yesterday vs tomorrow is odd to me when it comes to performance enhancing substances and techniques.


Yup, the line moves with awareness of what people are doing (e.g. a German rider was pulling his blood out, running under a UV light, and putting back. Wasn't banned when he did it, then when it became known as a thing that was being done, it was banned) and having ways to detect it.

With how easy it is to order drugs online (yeah, you'd probably want some way of verifying that they're real before taking, but you could buy from a few sites and then stick to the one that's supplying the real stuff), I am really surprised that it's not more common.

The line will likely move again, and right now I do not know if it'll move to zero tolerance with better testing techniques, or move to allow previously defined PED's to be legal. I'd prefer the first option, but I'm an idealist.

(Me, I've got a 2 year old kid, so am actually just running this year to try to hold off the effects of aging ... PED's would make not difference to me at all, and I'm unlikely to ever be in a situation where I would consider using anything more than a couple of GU's on a ride. I ride for fun).


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## yogidabear (Mar 4, 2014)

Not to detract this particular discussion, but some have argued in this thread that doping wouldn't impact their performance or the performance of those in their age/class. You sure?



> I flew past my previous mark and hung on for more than 12 minutes and 375 watts. This gave me a score of 63, a 7% increase in seven weeks. When you consider that even half a percentage point can make the difference in elite sport, that is a huge bump.


How I became a drug cheat athlete to test the system - BBC News


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Those who say that the "big 3" PEDs (T, HGH, EPO) and similar substances like SARMS can't have a major impact on trained amateurs (like they do with pros) haven't been reading article after article and book after book about how they do just that. A lot of PEDs allow you to train harder, recover quicker, and build more lean muscle mass. Lance wasn't sitting on the couch, and was out on his bike. He just couldn't have trained like that without "help".

A couple months ago I re-read Tyler's book and was struck by his description of the miraculous restorative powers of "red eggs". A little research showed they were relatively low-dose testosterone that probably didn't absorb as well as the creams, patches, and other delivery methods later used. It seems like even a little goes a long way when you're trying to recover from stressful training and racing.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

yogidabear said:


> Not to detract this particular discussion, but some have argued in this thread that doping wouldn't impact their performance or the performance of those in their age/class. You sure?
> 
> 
> 
> How I became a drug cheat athlete to test the system - BBC News


Interesting read but raises some doubt in my eyes.

I have no clinical experience with EPO but couple things in this article I question.
First, he says he picked a random internet source and had it tested as EPO.
The real world reality is black market Internet PED can be readily obtained but the majority of these sources are scams. There is much discussion on steroid forums about this subject. If he got legit EPO on a random shot he was real lucky.

Second, I don't know his age and weight but his experience (hundreds of races according to him) and 4 months of coaching riding 12 hrs a week he hits 300watts for 10 minutes. As a fit 61 yr old who doesn't race and rides 4-6hrs a week, I can hit 300watts for 10 minutes. This is his baseline as he continues training adding EPO micro dosing.

Third, he says after a couple weeks of micro dosing he says 4 hours into a ride he can climb hills "like they weren't even there". Really? At this point his 12 minute power rises to 325watts. I dunno but no matter how much one improves I can't imagine riding 4 hours then hitting hills like they weren't even there.

Maybe a few weeks of EPO can make a significant difference but I'm not buying some of his claims. Says he felt "sick" pushing 325watts for 12 minutes? 6-8 months of coaching and riding 12 hrs a week I would expect some better power numbers if his legs are not feeling climbs 4 hours into a ride.

Sounds like a journalist embellishing the story to me.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

BacDoc said:


> Second, I don't know his age and weight but his experience (hundreds of races according to him) and 4 months of coaching riding 12 hrs a week he hits 300watts for 10 minutes. As a fit 61 yr old who doesn't race and rides 4-6hrs a week, I can hit 300watts for 10 minutes. This is his baseline as he continues training adding EPO micro dosing.
> 
> Third, he says after a couple weeks of micro dosing he says 4 hours into a ride he can climb hills "like they weren't even there". Really? At this point his 12 minute power rises to 325watts. I dunno but no matter how much one improves I can't imagine riding 4 hours then hitting hills like they weren't even there.
> 
> ...


Dude, you need to go reread that as you really messed up the numbers. 

He said 350w during the first VO2 max test after 4 months of training, not 300. 350 to 375. 350 is a number very few would be able to hit assuming he's even a moderately sized cyclist (170 and below). Then he increased to 375 for 12 minutes. That's a pretty big jump after you've already been training. 

The key takeaway here, and the thing that I have constantly heard and read about in regards to the performance enhancement, is the recovery. The quote "*Now I was training at a level I had never reached but there was no joy in it* " precisely sums it up. Your recovery becomes unnatural. You can trainer harder and longer than ever before. THAT'S where the biggest performance boost comes from. It's not like you shoot up EPO, sit on the couch, and magically ride faster. It's the ability to go out there and utterly destroy yourself in training day after day and keep coming back for more. Your body simply keeps responding to the training rather than breaking down. THAT's the magic.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> Dude, you need to go reread that as you really messed up the numbers.
> 
> He said 350w during the first VO2 max test after 4 months of training, not 300. 350 to 375. 350 is a number very few would be able to hit assuming he's even a moderately sized cyclist (170 and below). Then he increased to 375 for 12 minutes. That's a pretty big jump after you've already been training.
> 
> The key takeaway here, and the thing that I have constantly heard and read about in regards to the performance enhancement, is the recovery. The quote "*Now I was training at a level I had never reached but there was no joy in it* " precisely sums it up. Your recovery becomes unnatural. You can trainer harder and longer than ever before. THAT'S where the biggest performance boost comes from. It's not like you shoot up EPO, sit on the couch, and magically ride faster. It's the ability to go out there and utterly destroy yourself in training day after day and keep coming back for more. Your body simply keeps responding to the training rather than breaking down. THAT's the magic.


My bad! Posted after reading and made an error. Never took VO2 Max test so I don't know how that differs from just hammering for 12 minutes on the bike with power meter.

Even so I would prefer to see watts per kilo for a better reference. After 8 weeks of micro dosing EPO I can understand the physiological performance gains but do you think his claim of hills felt like they weren't even there four hours into the ride is legit?

The fact that he randomly picked a website and got real EPO is very lucky too. The reality of getting legit black market drugs off the internet is one of the top postings on steroid forums and the norm is the vast majority test negative. Counterfeiters develop cheap fake substitutes than give the "sides" of the PED but are not the real thing.

Maybe EPO is that good. I have no clinical experience with EPO but quite a bit with the standard "Anti Aging" PED's, and like I said before, the performance gains are minimal compared to other factors. Combinations of PEDs, EPO and training are what the pros use because it works in their arena. I would think if EPO is that good why would anybody use anything else?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

as pedal biked says - train harder and more often
more O to the muscles (harder training), more waste product removed (faster recovery)

the article from Outside Mag many years ago was a great primer. The author used himself as a guinea pig. all the dope produced results, the EPO results were exponential.

Drug Test | Outside Online

and this one from 2012
https://www.outsideonline.com/1908791/i-couldnt-be-more-positive


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

BacDoc said:


> My bad! Posted after reading and made an error. Never took VO2 Max test so I don't know how that differs from just hammering for 12 minutes on the bike with power meter.
> 
> Even so I would prefer to see watts per kilo for a better reference. After 8 weeks of micro dosing EPO I can understand the physiological performance gains but do you think his claim of hills felt like they weren't even there four hours into the ride is legit?
> 
> ...


I don't know how legit any subjective claims are, but if a person was rarely able to sustain a training load that included four hour rides, and now they could, then it'd make sense that they'd feel a whole lot stronger at the end of those than they previously would. 

I'm not sure why you have this line of questioning. There are certainly those that respond more than others (those with lower hcts and all get a bigger boost). But there's zero denying it works and works in a phenomenal way. There's no maybe about it. But along with any of those PEDs, there's no results without the work.


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## Judgment (Sep 5, 2016)

pedalbiker said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I ride a cheap bike with al wheels, don't have a coach, work a full time job, eat junk food all the time and am still a nationally competitive cat 1. And I got there by wearing the rubber off my tires a mile at a time for 10 plus years.
> 
> ...


Cat 1? That's impressive. Let me know if you ever have a race in my area. I'd like to swing by and check it out.


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## jeremy_s (May 6, 2015)

BacDoc said:


> I have some patients late 50's with full natty 800 testosterone and some 30 yo males under 200 testosterone. I have some 50-60yo patients full on HRT that get to 600-700 testosterone and normal thyroid. They are taking .5-.7ml testosterone weekly, twice weekly Hcg and thyroid daily to get those levels.



I fall into that group. At 32 years old I was barely over 100 and my quality of life had gone to ****. I had no desire for my wife who is young and absolutely smoking hot and very little desire to even get off the couch and I'm a life long wanna-be athlete with 12 years of military, long distance running, motocross, cycling, etc. And I just flat out crashed at 31 or so and it took me a year to figure it out. I'm active and prescribed 300mg/w of testosterone and that keeps me in the middle of the healthy range. 

Everyone is different and some people need it young.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

jeremy_s said:


> Everyone is different and some people need it young.


No. Only people with serious medical needs. Not "everyone". 

Took you a year to figure out what? Because it sounds like (from this and your other post) that all you've figured out is you can go get some testosterone shots every week to get your levels back up to what's considered a healthy range. There's clearly an underlying issue that would cause that, and that's what I'd want to be figuring out.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Judgment said:


> Cat 1? That's impressive. Let me know if you ever have a race in my area. I'd like to swing by and check it out.


Or you could just swing by a local race in your area and check it out anyway? I wouldn't say it's all that interesting, though, unless it's an NRC or a big twilight-esque event or you're just really, really into bike racing.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> No. Only people with serious medical needs. Not "everyone".
> 
> Took you a year to figure out what? Because it sounds like (from this and your other post) that all you've figured out is you can go get some testosterone shots every week to get your levels back up to what's considered a healthy range. There's clearly an underlying issue that would cause that, and that's what I'd want to be figuring out.


This happens!

Yes it can take time to figure out, between the rigors of daily life, family and work commitments, time passes quickly. You know something is wrong but think maybe you have a bug, maybe just overworked, maybe you're not eating right. Couple weeks go by and it doesn't get better, so you make appt with doc. Well that time doesn't work so next available appt is in a week. You see the doc and he does exam and orders blood work. Maybe you get it done that week, takes a week or more for doc to get results.

You make appt to go over results following week. Levels are way off but your primary care guy is not endocrinologist or anti aging specialist so you get referred to proper doc. That can take another week or two and he might to run some other blood work that the primary guy didn't. More time goes by and finally you get diagnosis and script. From the time the guy realizes there is a problem to the time he gets diagnosis and treatment can be over 6 months. How do I know? Because I see patients and take history!

Unless you have clinical experience you really can't comment on his situation. Sometimes, without "pathology" testosterone production shuts down. Causes? Could be congenital/genetic, could be stress or environmental related, medication(one of the most common prescriptions is Statin drugs!) or injury. The dude has 12 yrs military ( thanks for your service bro!) and things I mentioned can shut testosterone production down. If he's on HRT, I'm sure his doc has run the blood work as it is standard of care.

How often does this happen? Not sure, but it does happen and this is completely different than "normal" athletes looking for performance boost.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

As a person who has known about my person T issues for 7 years thru my family doc and then an endocrinologist Dr and riding for the last 5 years, some of the "black magic" gains that people think getting supplemental T does are way out in left field.

The average guy is going to get T supplement that puts them in the normal range (300-600) of where their T levels should be. Sure the dopers take advantage of that and push the envelope as far as they can and to the extreme. Just taking T supplement is not going to make you a better/faster/stronger rider over night, doesn't work like that at all. Still gonna take time in the saddle and miles on the body to get stronger.

As said though, some people have T levels drop for reasons that cant be explained, I had a full endocrine panel ran years ago when the wife and I were trying to figure out why we couldn't get pregnant and why my sex drive had stopped, my energy levels had dropped and even though I was still really active my weight started to climb out of control even though we both stay on a very structured diet.

Other than having a gene mutation that affects how my body processes folic acid, the super expensive endocrine panel that was ran found nothing else outside of the norm. On paper my results said I should be a healthy at the time 35 year old male who was over-weight, well other than my T levels were in the 150-170 range all the time.

So testing told me why I was so off, training and riding 10+ hours each week is what helped me get stronger though, even still I am 42 years old, weight 190lbs and race Cat 4 road/ Cat 2 MTB/ Cat 4 CX and I still get my tail handed to me every week that I am out there racing. 

So genetics, age, and physical conditioning are not always able to be overcome to make someone a super star. Some people turn into studs with outside help and other people stay a dud with outside help.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

BacDoc said:


> This happens!
> 
> 
> How often does this happen? Not sure, but it does happen and this is completely different than "normal" athletes looking for performance boost.


So to summarize, you're saying that's a serious medical condition and not just a run-of-the-mill thing that anyone and everyone would experience, right? 

You really need to read more carefully before posting such lengthy "rebuttals". All you're saying is what I said in a much shorter post.

I think the real issue here is that this poster is just doing T injections with absolutely no idea what's causing the problem in the first place. Gross negligence occurring somewhere along his medical chain of command.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

TJay74 said:


> As a person who has known about my person T issues for 7 years thru my family doc and then an endocrinologist Dr and riding for the last 5 years, some of the "black magic" gains that people think getting supplemental T does are way out in left field.
> 
> The average guy is going to get T supplement that puts them in the normal range (300-600) of where their T levels should be. Sure the dopers take advantage of that and push the envelope as far as they can and to the extreme. Just taking T supplement is not going to make you a better/faster/stronger rider over night, doesn't work like that at all. Still gonna take time in the saddle and miles on the body to get stronger.\


Huh?

One of the biggest benefits of doping is the ability to train and recover to train again. So no freaking kidding it takes miles and time. No one has claimed differently. 

But being able to continually and repeatedly knock out high intensity 20+ hour weeks is precisely why these guys take these drug cocktails. 

Who cares about the average guy? What posts are you reading that lead you to think it takes anything but a massive amount of hard work to be fast?


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## backstreet (Oct 9, 2016)

That may be what the USADA press release says, but the 'racer' in question told other racers that she got her dope from another teammate, who now races for a major womens pro team. 



thumper8888 said:


> The very, very experienced woman cyclist who popped is... married to a sports and family medicine doctor who used to be a racer himself, according to the interweb.
> 
> And the USADA release says: Ciolli argued that the failed test was the result of a prescription medication and an over-the-counter product, taken under the guidance of a physician."
> 
> Hard to tell much bout that one without USADA being more clear about the circumstances. On one hand, the release almost sounds like it was reluctant to hit her, softening its usual tone a bit, wringing its hands about the sad lack of a TUE. Unclear which item was in the prescription and which was in a supplement or over the counter medicine.....Yet she seems like she could scarcely have been better equipped to understand the issues involved in any prescription involving either of those two things.


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## backstreet (Oct 9, 2016)

Neither her nor there really, but according to USADA, he's only been tested once. Athlete Test History | U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA)

*maybe this explains it: "This search WILL NOT yield results conducted on U.S. athletes by other testing entities, if the test session was not requested or initiated by USADA. Test sessions conducted by USADA at the request of other sport organizations, events, International Federations, or individuals are also not included "



Creakyknees said:


> Corsicana is a standard issue grassroots small time local stage race. Nothing major about it, and nowhere near the scale of Tulsa Tough. I won $50 and a small wood plaque for 3rd on GC. Total race prize list was maybe $5k if that.
> 
> Baatz was tested 3 times that i know of. GC 1st in 2014, apparently he passed. GC 1st and also Crit 1st, two separate tests, in 2016. I guess one or both of those popped him.
> 
> In 2016, they announced that USADA was onsite as we stood on the start line of the crit (after having already done the morning TT) - I like that approach as it makes it more difficult to quietly disappear from the race. They (as I recall) tested stage winners and GC and a few randoms. Not all categories were tested, all I know for sure is Masters and the P12's. Maybe Women Open but can't recall.


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