# what's going to happen next??



## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

:mad2: after Vino's incident, will the tour stripe Vino's stage 13th and 15th wins to the second place finisher?? is that mean Evans will credit with TT win and gain some time on Levi?? is it even possible the tour will hold/cancell this season??:17:


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## gray8110 (Dec 11, 2001)

The only way the tour will stop is if the riders protest or stop.

Evans will be credited with the TT win now, but TT's don't have Time Bonuses so it doesn't change the overall standings.. except for the absense of the Astana riders.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Nah. As far as that goes, they kept on with the tour in 1998, when nearly HALF of the field quit in the Festina Scandal.

I'm not sure if they will credit the stage wins to Evans and Kirchen -- I think they will just leave it as an asterisk, for now at least.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

TT wins have no time bonuses z ken. Unless I'm wrong.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

OH i thought a stage win get 20 seconds bonus. who would've thought the biggest " action " in this tour come on the day when everyone is resting. nice going Vino!! you [email protected]!!


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

z ken said:


> OH i thought a stage win get 20 seconds bonus. who would've thought the biggest " action " in this tour come on the day when everyone is resting. nice going Vino!! you [email protected]!!


You create your own time bonuses in a time trial.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Why on earth would the Tour be cancelled? If a hockey player breaks the rules and gets into a brutal bloody fight, staining the ice and delaying the game, do they cancel the game? Nope. The offender gets punished, and the game goes on. Which is worse, physically assulting an opponent or turning out a positive test?
Vino wasn't a contender at this point. He's tested positive, is out of the Tour, and if finally proven guilty, makes a great example for other riders to NOT follow. It's a shame a team sponsor like Astana, who has committed to a TEN year sponsorship, is put in this situation. 
I just hope bonehead fans don't go off and start assuming all the riders are doped. 

If you believe the accuracy of Vino's positive test, you must also believe the accuracy all other negative tests.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Evans and Kirchen will get the stage wins.

No bonuses on time trials.

Evans will continue to suck wheels until Contador pulls the lever and flushes the toilet. After that, it'll be mano-a-mano with the Chicken.


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## cat4rider (Nov 10, 2006)

F*&k, F*&k, F*&k, F*&k!!!!!! d#amit. Just when i was hoping Contador and Ras would make this a great make up tour....so, now, all sponsors pull out, the riders aren't gonna make s*&t for riding next year,


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

cat4rider said:


> F*&k, F*&k, F*&k, F*&k!!!!!! d#amit. Just when i was hoping Contador and Ras would make this a great make up tour....so, now, all sponsors pull out, the riders aren't gonna make s*&t for riding next year,


Errr.... yeah... Millar's interview says it all.


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## IAmCosmo (Jul 26, 2005)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Why on earth would the Tour be cancelled? If a hockey player breaks the rules and gets into a brutal bloody fight, staining the ice and delaying the game, do they cancel the game? Nope. The offender gets punished, and the game goes on. Which is worse, physically assulting an opponent or turning out a positive test?
> Vino wasn't a contender at this point. He's tested positive, is out of the Tour, and if finally proven guilty, makes a great example for other riders to NOT follow. It's a shame a team sponsor like Astana, who has committed to a TEN year sponsorship, is put in this situation.
> I just hope bonehead fans don't go off and start assuming all the riders are doped.
> 
> If you believe the accuracy of Vino's positive test, you must also believe the accuracy all other negative tests.


Just a little clarification here...

As a former professional hockey player who still holds a league record with 27 penalty minutes in 12 on-ice minutes, I must say that I would never classify a fight as a physical assault. I was in more than 30 fights in the one year I played professionally. Not a single one of them was with an unwilling opponent. Yes, blood was drawn, teeth were lost, etc. But I never got into a fight with someone who didn't want to fight back.

Carry on...


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Don't cheer for the Ras*




cat4rider said:


> F*&k, F*&k, F*&k, F*&k!!!!!! d#amit. Just when i was hoping Contador and Ras would make this a great make up tour....so, now, all sponsors pull out, the riders aren't gonna make s*&t for riding next year,


Cuz he was in Mexico in June avoiding doping tests probably in order to take testerone to build his strength.

We can not cheer for a guy who missed doping controls intentionally.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Whoa, a real Goon.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

They _all_ cheat.

So what? We like it that way! Does anyone think the riders could give us the show they thrill us with year after year on those inhumane mountain stages if they didn't?

Put Vino back in! Certainly put Kloden back in, and let's see what happens!

...Levi would still wind up second.:thumbsup:


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Bwhahahaha.......*



Jesse D Smith said:


> I just hope bonehead fans don't go off and start assuming all the riders are doped.
> 
> If you believe the accuracy of Vino's positive test, you must also believe the accuracy all other negative tests.


you forgot the satire smiley!

Len


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

so Evans won the stage 13th then??


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Italophile said:


> They _all_ cheat.
> 
> So what? We like it that way! Does anyone think the riders could give us the show they thrill us with year after year on those inhumane mountain stages if they didn't?
> 
> ...



Are you serious? I suppose you are. Please FW your racing license number so I can report you.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Are you serious? I suppose you are. Please FW your racing license number so I can report you.



Of course I'm not serious! 

...Not completely, anyway. I would love to believe that cycling can be cleaned up, but I see riders caught on too regular a basis to be so naive. My belief is that many, many of the big names are still cheating. It is a shame. It is not new, however, and before we knew so much, we used to enjoy the exploits of these medical marvels.

I would be surprised to find out some riders can be proven to be clean! I would consider the fifty-fourth finisher to be the winner if he were the first among clean riders.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy the spectacle, whatever the taint.

If they are going to cheat, then that is our truth, and we must love it or leave it.

I do wish Astana could leave Kloden in, though. It is Draconian to eliminate all of Vino's teammates. I felt bad for Vino last year for the same reason, and now for his unaccused teammates.

...Are we sure the testing is accurate?


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Yes, z-ken. Evans won the stage.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Or could it be?*



dagger said:


> Cuz he was in Mexico in June avoiding doping tests probably in order to take testerone to build his strength.
> 
> We can not cheer for a guy who missed doping controls intentionally.


Or could it be he was in Mexico because that's where his wife is from? I mean, isn't that a possibility?

If I'm not mistaken, you cheered a lot in the past for Armstrong, also someone who was under suspicion for doping for many years, and tested positive once (later retracted because of a TUE). Did you think Merckx was a great cyclist? If so, how could you? He tested positive a couple of times during his career and was suspended.

Look at the winners of most of the large races over the years, and what do a LOT of them have in common? Most have served some time for doping infractions, or later confessed to doping after their careers were over. If you didn't cheer for someone who doped, or who was suspected of doping, you wouldn't have very many people to cheer for at the end of the day.


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## RoadLoad (Jan 18, 2005)

So what's next? All the hand wringing won't stop the doping. I find it interesting nobody is talking about changing the race so as to make it less necessary to engage in doping in order to win. What is it, 21 days of the best riders in the world going wheel to wheel, full throttle, over the most demanding terrain the race organizers can find with only two days off? Come on? Its not humanly natural to do that sort of thing. 

Yet that's what the TDF is about, that's what is so compelling about the race. Now would we prefer to see racers drop out, watch them crack, crumble like the rest of us mortals when we exceed our limits? I don't think so - I've been there, done that, seen that. Its not compelling TV.

The observation about hockey and fighting may provide a valuable analogy to the TDF's future. Hockey has lost a healthy amount of its rough and tumble character as the Lords of the Boards have squeezed the fighting out of the game. Just watching highly skilled athletes fly up and down the ice doesn't do it for me.

Watching the Tour without the pain, speed, distance, climbing, and hair raising decents day after day after day for three weeks - won't be the Tour. Enjoy Rassmussen and Contador over the next few days because it may be the last time we see the Tour as we know it.


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## hitek (Mar 13, 2006)

It the same in all sports. With all the money an fame at stake someone is cheating or thinking of how to get away with cheating.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Italophile said:


> Of course I'm not serious!
> 
> ...Not completely, anyway. I would love to believe that cycling can be cleaned up, but I see riders caught on too regular a basis to be so naive. My belief is that many, many of the big names are still cheating. It is a shame. It is not new, however, and before we knew so much, we used to enjoy the exploits of these medical marvels.
> 
> ..Are we sure the testing is accurate?



Ooooops. Sorry. I'm a bit dense and missed the sarcasm. You said you enjoy watching despite the cheating. Yeah I do too, but it has a hollow ring to it. Somewhat like WWF, it ain't reality. 

Someone below posted they'd prefer not to see what would naturally would happen given the riders were clean: people falling over, bonking all over the place, throwing up. He prefers the fakeroo version, a more exciting drama for him I guess. Not me, I think the reality version would twice as fun. I could point and laugh from my sofa. But, there was a day before doping, not too long ago, and those guys are my heros.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

RoadLoad said:


> So what's next? All the hand wringing won't stop the doping. I find it interesting nobody is talking about changing the race so as to make it less necessary to engage in doping in order to win. What is it, 21 days of the best riders in the world going wheel to wheel, full throttle, over the most demanding terrain the race organizers can find with only two days off? Come on? Its not humanly natural to do that sort of thing.
> 
> Yet that's what the TDF is about, that's what is so compelling about the race. Now would we prefer to see racers drop out, watch them crack, crumble like the rest of us mortals when we exceed our limits? I don't think so - I've been there, done that, seen that. Its not compelling TV.
> 
> ...


True, it's not "natural" for humans to finish the Tour. If it was, we wouldn't be watching it. Would you sit for a couple hours every day for a month watching cat III racers go on training rides? 

If the Tour was one day long, riders would still be faced with the temptation to dope. Riders have taking performance enhancing drugs for a single day race win. 
Lesser riders and domestiques seem to be able to finish the Tour clean, so there's no reason to think genetically gifting athletes who engage in smart dedicated training can't complete a grand tour.

True fans don't enjoy the suffering for sadistic reasons. They just know that suffering is something we all go through and take it as a sign the athlete hasn't quit. Seeing athletes crack and get eliminated is a natural part of endurance sports. It's the slow attrition that adds to the drama and tests the mental as well as physical strength. With dope, we see athletes cheat the natural attrition that suffering brings. It's the elimination of suffering that ruins the race.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Jesse D Smith said:


> True, it's not "natural" for humans to finish the Tour. If it was, we wouldn't be watching it. Would you sit for a couple hours every day for a month watching cat III racers go on training rides?
> 
> If the Tour was one day long, riders would still be faced with the temptation to dope. Riders have taking performance enhancing drugs for a single day race win.
> Lesser riders and domestiques seem to be able to finish the Tour clean, so there's no reason to think genetically gifting athletes who engage in smart dedicated training can't complete a grand tour.
> ...


This is one of the most well-written, insightful posts on the subject thus far. You made me want to stand up and cheer.

The dopers still suffer in the TDF, but I wonder how many would actually choose to complete the race sans the "chemical jet packs."


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

RoadLoad said:


> So what's next? All the hand wringing won't stop the doping. I find it interesting nobody is talking about changing the race so as to make it less necessary to engage in doping in order to win. What is it, 21 days of the best riders in the world going wheel to wheel, full throttle, over the most demanding terrain the race organizers can find with only two days off? Come on? Its not humanly natural to do that sort of thing.
> 
> Yet that's what the TDF is about, that's what is so compelling about the race. Now would we prefer to see racers drop out, watch them crack, crumble like the rest of us mortals when we exceed our limits? I don't think so - I've been there, done that, seen that. Its not compelling TV.
> 
> ...


+100^100

If have said before and was serious. If they understand the risks, are willing to accept them and it adds to my entertainment value, than F--K It! I don't care if they take bull seamen straight form the source.


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## KeithNYC (Mar 17, 2004)

I am absolutly flabbergasted this thread hasn't been moved to the Doping Forum.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Ooooops. Sorry. I'm a bit dense and missed the sarcasm. You said you enjoy watching despite the cheating. Yeah I do too, but it has a hollow ring to it. Somewhat like WWF, it ain't reality.


No, you're not dense, my friend. I am genuinely ambivalent about the obvious cheating. I love these races! I love the spectacle, the drama, the individual stories, and the historic continuum. How glorious would human achievement be if it were as great as the stories humans write about it? Wouldn't we be proud? Wouldn't we be worthy of our own pride?

But Hercules was a fictional character; likewise, Achilles and Ajax, and Helen, and Abraham, and Moses, and Robin Hood, and William Tell, and King Arthur, and....

...at least as written. Eddy Merckx, too, and Hinault, and Del Gado, and Indurain ...and Bjarne ...and Jan ...and Lance ...and Floyd....

The closer they are to our own time, the less likely we are to defend them. That is what separates Vino from Raymond Poulidor, and that might be all that separates Alexander the Great from Hitler.




OldEndicottHiway said:


> Someone below posted they'd prefer not to see what would naturally would happen given the riders were clean: people falling over, bonking all over the place, throwing up. He prefers the fakeroo version, a more exciting drama for him I guess. Not me, I think the reality version would twice as fun. I could point and laugh from my sofa. But, there was a day before doping, not too long ago, and those guys are my heros.


You are very naive, but I agree with you. I have long advocated that Tour Committee should ease up on the riders, make the Tour physically possible again, so that aspirants wouldn't have to resort to cheating in order to have a chance to win. It is all about perspective: what was a great achievement in 1948 would still be a great achievement, if we didn't live in the period of upwardly sliding expectations.

Why does every event have to surpass the previous event? Because the audience has been conditioned to lose interest if it doesn't. Thus the increasing demands of the Tour, and of other cultural phenomena of the Media Age. Heaven forbid we should be subjected merely to the same thrills as our forebears.

Maybe we are near the end of actual, real entertainment. Maybe we are near the end of actual, real achievement.

Maybe, from now on, we will only be satisfied with the achievements of fictional characters.

Maybe we should start programming our computers to give us nothing but virtual sports, with unassailably virtuous virtual athletes.

Maybe we have outlived our own standards of achievement, athletic and otherwise.

Maybe we are entering a new age of legends and myths, born of the ability constantly to see the limits of reality for the first time. 

Maybe reality is just not enough to inspire human beings.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

KeithNYC said:


> I am absolutly flabbergasted this thread hasn't been moved to the Doping Forum.


What's the difference?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Italophile said:


> What's the difference?


 Roflmao. 

BTW, naive is incorrect, my new friend. Fortunatley for you, I am too tired tonight to defend my assertion. However, after reading your last post which brings some interesting ideas to the table, you are most assuredly not as simple as I had previously anticipated.


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## KeithNYC (Mar 17, 2004)

Italophile said:


> What's the difference?


Exactly. But I thought management was encouraging us to stick our heads in the sand and discuss Pro Cycling _as distinct_ from Doping :wink:


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

KeithNYC said:


> I am absolutly flabbergasted this thread hasn't been moved to the Doping Forum.


The doping forum is smeared with the most foolish and mean-spirited talk, rumor, blind accusation, rehashing, and rider-hating dogpiles. I foolishly paid it a visit and had to take a shower immediately after to get rid of the stench. This thread at least talks about the sport itself and offers some constructive hope. 
Moving this thread to the doping forum is like tossing a useful item into a feces-loaded toilet and telling posters to "go get it".


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## KeithNYC (Mar 17, 2004)

I totally agree Jesse. I'm just sayin' sometimes (like today) it's pretty hard- sadly- to discuss pro cycling without discussing doping. And it's a shame when threads get shifted immediatly to that forum if the word dope is uttered, whithout regard to context.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

KeithNYC said:


> I totally agree Jessie. I'm just sayin' sometimes (like today) it's pretty hard- sadly- to discuss pro cycling without discussing doping. And it's a shame when threads get shifted immediatly to that forum if the word dope is uttered- which seems to happen alot.


Yes. I think the admin has done a good job in a very fuzzy area. The high profile of Vino along with the rollercoaster emotional ride fans have been put through, especially considering how Vino's struggle and fight had him labeled as a heroic and courageous rider, has made this the biggest news, overshadowing the competition, at least for the rest day. I can live with this specific topic being relevant to the race. Vino was a challenger and his team's pullout directly affects the outcome. 
It's the doping topics having no direct relation to this particular tour that belong in the doping forum.
I have faith that tomorrows stage excitement will overshadow the sideshow.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

Argentius said:



> Nah. As far as that goes, they kept on with the tour in 1998, when nearly HALF of the field quit in the Festina Scandal.
> 
> I'm not sure if they will credit the stage wins to Evans and Kirchen -- I think they will just leave it as an asterisk, for now at least.


Please bear in mind that they quit the TdF over the actions of the French anti-doping authorities, not the results of those actions.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> But, there was a day before doping, not too long ago, and those guys are my heros.


There has _NEVER_ been "a day before doping" in cycling. It was right there from the start and has never been away, if you think that your heroes were "clean" you are sadly mistaken.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

Italophile said:


> You are very naive, but I agree with you. I have long advocated that Tour Committee should ease up on the riders, make the Tour physically possible again, so that aspirants wouldn't have to resort to cheating in order to have a chance to win.


The Tour committee has eased up on the riders considerably over the last two decades or so, no more double stages, no more 100km TTT's, no more 39km ITT over two cols like the one from Gap to Orcières Merlette in 1989 etc etc. It's not the mountains, the km's or whatever, it's the competition that leads people to do everything to gain an edge. People dope in track, no?


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

rogger said:


> The Tour committee has eased up on the riders considerably over the last two decades or so, no more double stages, no more 100km TTT's, no more 39km ITT over two cols like the one from Gap to Orcières Merlette in 1989 etc etc. It's the competition that leads people to do everything to gain an edge. People dope in track, no?


I disagree with a LOT you have to say, but you have this one right. You've hit on a very important misconception. Making the route easier would do little to end doping. The sheer difficulty of completing the designated kilometers isn't the main motivation for doping. Riding the Tour faster than everybody else, no matter how long or short the route, is what tempts then motivates the dopers. 
Riders today have superior equipment, training, knowledge, superior medical care and all around support than at any time in the past. At the same time, individual stage lengths and the number of stages in a single day have been eased. 
Are we to believe gifted riders like Pantani, Virenque, Ullrich, or Vino are unable to complete the route within the daily time limits with the aid of drugs? If Vino is found guilty, are we to believe he couldn't complete the race without drugs? He was still winning stages when he had to leave!!
But there equally compelling reasons for the domestique to dope. Say you're a domestique looking to secure a contract for the next year. Your job is to stay with your more talented, and possibly doped team leader as long as possible. The more gifted GC contender is motivated by mere victory/glory. You're motivation is just to keep a job!! Your financial well being is at stake. If you can't keep up, you wind up a 135 lb unemployed citizen, probably lacking any higher education, with no pension, etc.


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## Nat (Feb 22, 2004)

Italophile said:


> I have long advocated that Tour Committee should ease up on the riders, make the Tour physically possible again, so that aspirants wouldn't have to resort to cheating in order to have a chance to win.


Even if the race were made easy, don't you think there would still be cheating?


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

Jesse D Smith said:


> The doping forum is smeared with the most foolish and mean-spirited talk, rumor, blind accusation, rehashing, and rider-hating dogpiles. I foolishly paid it a visit and had to take a shower immediately after to get rid of the stench. This thread at least talks about the sport itself and offers some constructive hope.
> Moving this thread to the doping forum is like tossing a useful item into a feces-loaded toilet and telling posters to "go get it".


You need to take a shower after you watch the actual race, that is the real feces.


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