# Oh noes, Evil Lance sends out the Senior citizen hit squad.



## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

In the news today...
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A retired Florida urologist was sentenced to three years of probation Thursday for threatening to kill the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency CEO after the organization stripped cycling legend Lance Armstrong of his Tour de France titles.

Gerrit Keats, a 72-year-old Clearwater Beach, Fla., doctor, pleaded guilty to making a threat through interstate commerce on Oct. 7. He must serve 540 hours of community service and pay a $5,000 fine.

His plea agreement indicates he believed Travis Tygart, the CEO of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, should be skinned alive.

"Travis Tygart is a ... pig who should be nailed to a tree and skinned while he watches his toady staff and filthy children being castrated. ... The greatest service I could do to mankind is kill" Tygart, Keats wrote to Tygart in an e-mail.


Tygert couldn't let well enough alone, he just had to blame Armstrong..........

Tygart testified at the sentencing hearing, saying Keats' threats not only victimized himself and his three grade school-aged children but his agency's employees. He said Armstrong "shamelessly lit the match" that drove Keats and others to make threats. 

.
I wonder how many "death threats" Armstrong has received in the last few years???

Did Tygart “light the match” for them…??
.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> .
> I wonder how many "death threats" Armstrong has received in the last few years???
> 
> Did Tygart “light the match” for them…??
> .


You have to be kidding

Armstrong spent $$$$ on an organized smear designed to destroy Travis. He used livestrong funds to lobby politicians to defund USADA. He spewed relentless lies about Travis and filed lawsuits designed to undermine his work. 

Travis did his job.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Armstrong whipped up some awfully strong and baseless claims against the USADA, Tygart personally and so forth. 

He isn't directly responsible for what this guy did, but he did create a highly charged situation knowing full well he was in the wrong.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Bluenote said:


> Armstrong whipped up some awfully strong and baseless claims against the USADA, Tygart personally and so forth.
> 
> He isn't directly responsible for what this guy did, but he did create a highly charged situation knowing full well he was in the wrong.




Do you have any examples of these "baseless" claims against Tygart, personally????
On the other hand, Tygart seems to actually "Hate" Armstrong. One has to wonder why?....Could it be political aspirations?? 
If Tygart really is on an anti-doping crusade, instead of having political ambitions, why stop at Armstrong??


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

There are a lot of dopers out there who've been busted by USADA and would take issue with the idea that Tygert "stopped at Lance"


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Please supply some name of highly ranked American professional riders who received the "ban-hammer".
Do not count the riders who tested positive at events. Tygert had no part in their demise.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Tygart seems to actually "Hate" Armstrong. One has to wonder why?....Could it be political aspirations??


Example?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Please supply some name of highly ranked American professional riders who received the "ban-hammer".
> Do not count the riders who tested positive at events. Tygert had no part in their demise.


Nonsense. Of course USADA, Which Travis is head of, is responsible for testing riders.....like Tyler Hamilton who is currently serving a 8 year sanction after a positive test by USADA. Landis was sanctioned for 2 years by USADA. Arbitration and appeal, all handled by USADA. 

Marti, Bruyneel, Ferrari, Bruyneel, del Moral. All banned for life thanks to Travis. They had the opportunity to cooperate and get a reduced sanction but chose to obstruct the investigation.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Do you have any examples of these "baseless" claims against Tygart, personally????
> On the other hand, Tygart seems to actually "Hate" Armstrong. One has to wonder why?....Could it be political aspirations??
> If Tygart really is on an anti-doping crusade, instead of having political ambitions, why stop at Armstrong??


Can you give specific examples of Tygart's 'hate' for Pharmstrong? 

And the doping report on Pharmstrong doesn't count.


Can you give specific examples of Tygart's political ambitions?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

What were Armstrong's personal attacks against Tygart? Not that I doubt it, I would just like to hear it. 

Also, regarding Tygart's outrage towards Armstrong, prosecutors are always the most outrageous people. They always overblow everything. They cannot help it. We see examples in the article, as if Armstrong actually drove anyone to commit felonies.


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## martino (May 11, 2009)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Do you have any examples of these "baseless" claims against Tygart, personally????
> On the other hand, Tygart seems to actually "Hate" Armstrong. One has to wonder why?....Could it be political aspirations??
> If Tygart really is on an anti-doping crusade, instead of having political ambitions, why stop at Armstrong??


people asking for examples should live by there own rules, where are your examples.

for example, you don't seem to like tygart, and you've provided an EXAMPLE!!


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## obed (Jan 12, 2014)

the man may actually hate Lance, but no worries there, Lance likes himself enough for all of us


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> What were Armstrong's personal attacks against Tygart? Not that I doubt it, I would just like to hear it.


I suggest reading, if you have time, Armstrong first filing in his nonsense Federal case against Travis and USADA. It is 80 pages of vitriol against Travis and USADA



> a well-publicized obsession with “getting” Mr. Armstrong. Defendant Tygart evidently believes that USADA needs to bring a big case against a “big fish” to justify its existence. One of, if not the primary, goals of this effort is to convince the United States government to continue and increase the tens of millions of dollars of unsupervised grants that the government already provides to USADA.......
> 
> willfully violating the
> law – behaving as if they are above the law . . . . [T]hey are nothing more than bullies
> preying upon the vulnerable.......Kangaroo Court


Of course the judge dismissed it. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/s...-files-suit-to-block-doping-charges.html?_r=0

Judge Sparks wrote that Armstrong's was filled with allegations that



> “were included *solely to increase media coverage of this case, and to incite public opinion against”* the antidoping agency and Travis Tygart,





> “This court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong’s desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement or vilification of Defendants, by sifting through 80 mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims,”


Add to this the lobbying campaign, the online "Reputation management" companies designed to push misinformation (Witch hunt, Unconsititutional, blah blah) and smear Travis


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Armstrong paid people to dig into the past (and garbage) of everyone who went after him. But if saying Tygart had political aspirations is a personal attack, what was all that business about the prosecutor who dropped the Federal case against Armstrong? 

When the federal case was dropped someone on this board disparagingly referred to the prosecutor as a _political appointee_. 

The entire Armstrong saga is full of these tiny jabs. But are they really personal attacks?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> Armstrong paid people to dig into the past (and garbage) of everyone who went after him. But if saying Tygart had political aspirations is a personal attack, what was all that business about the prosecutor who dropped the Federal case against Armstrong?
> 
> When the federal case was dropped someone on this board disparagingly referred to the prosecutor as a _political appointee_.
> 
> The entire Armstrong saga is full of these tiny jabs. But are they really personal attacks?


You are confusing the comments on message board with legal filings, paid lobbyists and media campaigns


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Of course he does.... Can you think of a Champion that doesn't?


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## obed (Jan 12, 2014)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Of course he does.... Can you think of a Champion that doesn't?


no, can you think of a cheater that doesn't?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Of course he does.... Can you think of a Champion that doesn't?


Miguel Indurain


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dear Grumpy, please change your answer that Lance is 100% responsible. Or else.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

I don't think Armstrong is responsible for this guy leveling death threats.

But I'm not on board with the attempted revision of history - the USADA picked on poor Lance and said horrible things about him. 

One, I think we need to be clear about who said what. A lot of the piling on came from the press and on message boards post Oprah. People really didn't like the Armstrong they saw on Oprah and that is not exactly the USADAs fault. 

Second, Armstrong went after the USADA with a full on attack. Tried to cut off their funding, lobbied against them, had a coordinated PR attack against them. 

This fits with a larger pattern of Armstrong - going after people who talked about doping. Emma O'Reilly was a prostitite, The Times libeled him, Mike Anderson just wanted money, etc...

I think that is a hard situation to put anyone in. I think the USADA dealt with it about the best they could, by putting the facts out there publically for everyone to decide for themselves. 

If the Reasoned Decision and the Oprah interview make Armstrong look bad, he has no one but himself to blame.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I have no problems with bans for dopers (which Armstrong is the King of). I have a problem with bans on some dopers and not bans on others.

In the grand scheme of things, cycling is a minor sport in America. It makes me wonder why Tygert hasn't cleaned up boxing.

“USADA Motions to Quash Pacquiao Subpoena of Mayweather, Jr Medical Records”



Late Wednesday night I received information that the United States Anti-Doping Association had filed a motion in Colorado District Court to “quash production subpoena” of Floyd Mayweather, Jr.’s medical records. The subpoena came from Manny Pacquiao’s lawyers after Mayweather, Jr. counter-sued Pacquiao for defamation. Team Pacquiao is requesting all relevant medical records pertaining to the three fights Mayweather used USADA testing in. The motion is attempt to deny Team Pacquiao those medical records.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I have no problems with bans for dopers (which Armstrong is the King of). I have a problem with bans on some dopers and not bans on others.


That still makes you a sympathizer in this neck of the woods. I mean, Vino's Vuelta title and Di Luca's Giro titles are TOTALLY legit. Totes mahgoats.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> That still makes you a sympathizer in this neck of the woods. I mean, Vino's Vuelta title and Di Luca's Giro titles are TOTALLY legit. Totes mahgoats.


yawn.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I'm still waiting for that first paycheck from Lance....(which I assume he stole from some crippled nuns)
.
.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> That still makes you a sympathizer in this neck of the woods. I mean, Vino's Vuelta title and Di Luca's Giro titles are TOTALLY legit. Totes mahgoats.


Um, I know you are just doing your normal trolling nonsense but you do realize Di Luca is banned for life.....


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Um, I know you are just doing your normal trolling nonsense but you do realize Di Luca is banned for life.....


And neither of those guys or those titles were under the jurisdiction of the USADA.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

spade2you said:


> That still makes you a sympathizer in this neck of the woods. I mean, Vino's Vuelta title and Di Luca's Giro titles are TOTALLY legit. Totes mahgoats.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Dear Grumpy, please change your answer that Lance is 100% responsible. Or else.


:lol: Must learn not to have a mouth full of coffee when I read your posts. It may end up all over my screen.


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## skitorski (Dec 4, 2012)

cda 455 said:


> Can you give specific examples of Tygart's 'hate' for Pharmstrong? And the doping report on Pharmstrong doesn't count.
> Can you give specific examples of Tygart's political ambitions?


Tygart drives a Wenzeled Nissan Xterra on 44's with IFS in the mall lot, trolling for Pirates !!!!


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Really, it's surprising they didn't just award Lance an honorary 8th TdF, what with him being so awesome on that level playing field and having raised billions to cure cancer, house widows and orphans and satisfy hot blondes.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Um, I know you are just doing your normal trolling nonsense but you do realize Di Luca is banned for life.....


Is Di Luca not still listed as the 2007 Giro winner?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Is Di Luca not still listed as the 2007 Giro winner?


Your question only merits an answer if you can tell us what jurisdiction Tygert has over an Italian racer on an Italian team racing in Italy.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Your question only merits an answer if you can tell us what jurisdiction Tygert has over an Italian racer on an Italian team racing in Italy.


Just proving how other countries are laughing at us and not going to hand over their wins.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> satisfy hot blondes.


No, people aren't jealous of Lance. What's so bad about satisfying hot blondes?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Just proving how other countries are laughing at us and not going to hand over their wins.


Just curious, is there evidence or sworn testimony proving DiLuca cheated at the 2007 Giro?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Just proving how other countries are laughing at us and not going to hand over their wins.


So you do understand that Tygert and DeLuca have nothing to do with one another. That's a step. 

Another step might be for you to stop bringing up irrelevant straw men altogether whenever the topic of doping comes up. I'm not holding out much hope, but I'm open to surprises.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

foto said:


> Just curious, is there evidence or sworn testimony proving DiLuca cheated at the 2007 Giro?


You're right. He won that one clean.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> So you do understand that Tygert and DeLuca have nothing to do with one another. That's a step.
> 
> Another step might be for you to stop bringing up irrelevant straw men altogether whenever the topic of doping comes up. I'm not holding out much hope, but I'm open to surprises.


You're right. We should turn a blind eye to other dopers. 

Back to Lance hiring senior citizen hitmen.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Just proving how other countries are laughing at us and not going to hand over their wins.


Actually, it just goes to show that other countries are paying lip service to ending doping in the peloton. Maybe you should get after them to get serious about it, instead of snarkily trolling us "lance-haters" on here.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Is Di Luca not still listed as the 2007 Giro winner?


The USADA doesn't own or control CONI. CONI doesn't own or control the Giro titles, the Giro organizers own them. CONI can't force the Giro to strip Di Luca (or Basso, or anyone else's) titles. 

Race organizers have been very reluctant to strip titles after the fact - it damages their brand. 

Personally, I don't like the system. It is too balkanized and leads to unequal treatment. Exhibit A: Operation Puerto. But the inequality tends to be one guy gets banned according to the letter of the law and another guy gets let off too easy. 

You have a track record of arguing 'poor Lance had it so bad.' Instead of arguing 'the system lets too many people off, here are ways we need to reform the system.'


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bluenote said:


> The USADA doesn't own or control CONI. CONI doesn't own or control the Giro titles, the Giro organizers own them. CONI can't force the Giro to strip Di Luca (or Basso, or anyone else's) titles.
> 
> Race organizers have been very reluctant to strip titles after the fact - it damages their brand.
> 
> ...


We seem to make plenty of excuses for European riders. Enforcement seems geared towards Americans. That's hardly teaching anyone a lesson. For those who dislike American cyclists, makes perfect sense. 

Guys like Lance, A-Rod, and Barry Bonds are easy to hate. They also distract us from the doping that's alive and well. If you can watch the GTs from the last 2 years without questioning the organization, I don't know what to tell ya. 

I know, you want my pharmacy license number for any of my poasts to have validity......

Fine, I give up. Lance indeed hired the senior citizen hitmen!


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

"Fine, I give up. Lance indeed hired the senior citizen hitmen! "

You've finally seen the light....

Repeat after me.......Tygart is god, and can do no wrong....
After cleaning up Armstrong...I mean cycling, he'll clean up Boxing and MLB....and Rodeo......(after all, MLB gets lots of public money for their stadiums.....Let's sue A-Rod for 100 million.
.
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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

It would be interesting to find out how people who actually do mass start races, feel about the Armstrong saga, verses people who like to ride fancy bikes and give opinions on doping.......Even more so, people who hardly ride, but spend their time on doping forums.......NTTAWWT. (I'm sure, nobody here is like that)

Getting back to the ORIGINAL idea. ...Was Tygart out of line for saying that Armstrong "LIT THE MATCH" to the death threats to him, and his kids........

No more Hijacks, please..... 
.
.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Getting back to the ORIGINAL idea. ...Was Tygart out of line for saying that Armstrong "LIT THE MATCH" to the death threats to him, and his kids........
> .


Was judge Sparks out of line when he said the same thing? 

You have to have been living in a cave to escape the media campaign designed to smear Travis. You are welcome to pretend that it had zero effect but most will not agree with you


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Was judge Sparks out of line when he said the same thing?


What if sparks lit the match?


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

skitorski said:


> Tygart drives a Wenzeled Nissan Xterra on 44's with IFS in the mall lot, trolling for Pirates !!!!


I don't know how many others got the reference, but I did. :lol:


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> It would be interesting to find out how people who actually do mass start races, feel about the Armstrong saga, verses people who like to ride fancy bikes and give opinions on doping.......Even more so, people who hardly ride, but spend their time on doping forums.......NTTAWWT. (I'm sure, nobody here is like that)
> 
> Getting back to the ORIGINAL idea. ...Was Tygart out of line for saying that Armstrong "LIT THE MATCH" to the death threats to him, and his kids........
> 
> ...


I do mass start races. I won one today. I think Armstrong is a douchnozzle who deserves everything the USADA has dealt him.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I do mass start races and I even won a few in the past. I don't care at all about the Armstrong saga. As for pros doping I do think some of the more recent pro racing has been a little less onesided and more fun to watch.

I am much more interested in the increase in testing at the local level, the strange personalities that seem to be getting popped, and how amateur doping is affecting the vibe of local scenes.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> We seem to make plenty of excuses for European riders. Enforcement seems geared towards Americans. That's hardly teaching anyone a lesson. For those who dislike American cyclists, makes perfect sense.
> 
> Guys like Lance, A-Rod, and Barry Bonds are easy to hate. They also distract us from the doping that's alive and well. If you can watch the GTs from the last 2 years without questioning the organization, I don't know what to tell ya.
> 
> ...


I said rather clearly Armstrong is not responsible for Mr. Death Threats. Nice antics, but they fool no one. 

We who? Who is this 'we' you keep refering to? 

I see you making a lot of excuses for Armstrong, so I guess that makes you just like all the other people who make excuses for Vino, Ulrich, Di Luca, etc... 

Maybe you are just pissy that the other apoligists beat you at the game?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

If the USADA went on busting and banning the run of the mill dope cheats but didn't go after Armstrong and his minions people would be griping about favoritism and the sport being afraid to expose its top names. Maybe the same people, come to think of it.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> We seem to make plenty of excuses for European riders. Enforcement seems geared towards Americans.


What are you talking about? 

Ulrich, Valverde, Scarponi, Basso, Marti, Di Luca, Ferrari, Bruyneel, del Moral, Celya, Vino, Pipoli, Ricco, Satambrigio, Santuccione


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Was Tygart out of line for saying that Armstrong "LIT THE MATCH" to the death threats to him, and his kids........
> 
> 
> .
> .


In my opinion, yes. Mr. Death Threats is responsible for Mr. Death Threat's actions, nobody else.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Ulrich, Valverde, Scarponi, Basso, Marti, Di Luca, Ferrari, Bruyneel, del Moral, Celya, Vino, Pipoli, Ricco, Satambrigio, Santuccione


Contador, Schleck, Rassmusen, Frigo, Garzelli, Vandenbrouke, Museeuw, Aitor Gonzalez.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Ulrich, Valverde, Scarponi, Basso, Marti, Di Luca, Ferrari, Bruyneel, del Moral, Celya, Vino, Pipoli, Ricco, Satambrigio, Santuccione


Again, many of them still retain the titles from when they were obviously doping like Di Luca, Ulrich, and Vino's GT titles.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bluenote said:


> Contador, Schleck, Rassmusen, Frigo, Garzelli, Vandenbrouke, Museeuw, Aitor Gonzalez.


Contador still has HOW many GT wins while doping? Garzelli is still a Giro winner.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

It's nice to see that the perfect can still be the enemy of the good, in expert hands.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Contador still has HOW many GT wins while doping? Garzelli is still a Giro winner.


The cases vary - in some this was no definitive proof that they were doping when they won their titles. Sure, its likely that they were. But thinking something is true and proving something is true are two different things. 

In Armstrong's case there was proof that he doped to win all his Tour titles. 

Are you saying we should start stripping people's titles without proof, based on 'everyone knows they were doping' just to even things up for poor little Lance? 

Everyone else has a GT title, but he has none? Its so sad.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bluenote said:


> The cases vary - in some this was no definitive proof that they were doping when they won their titles.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Bluenote said:


> Are you saying we should start stripping people's titles without proof, based on 'everyone knows they were doping' just to even things up for poor little Lance?.


I think that's exactly what he's saying.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> I think that's exactly what he's saying.


I do hereby proclaim that you speaketh for me. 

Not at all. Ya can't stop doping if you only strip Lance. If you do that, people will just act more like Froome. Otherwise the only lesson is to dope, but not be like Lance.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Fireform said:


> I think that's exactly what he's saying.


Pretty much. 

Armstrong is old news. He's been stripped and cycling has moved on.

But Spade is stuck on Lance and the poor shake he got. 

Instead of being interested in the T and R Commission, accreditation issues with the Rio lab, investigations into McQuaid, etc...

Poor little Lance. Glad he has Spade to defend him, he's gotten such an unfair deal.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Ya can't stop doping if you only strip Lance.


You don't really think that Lance is the only guy who has been stripped do you? 

You are playing the semantics' game. The UCI chased Ullrich for 6 years. He was fined 1,000,000 Euros, stripped of results, and banned for 2 years. You might ignore this and point to his results on Wikipedia but few rational people would want to go through the dismantling he did. Di Lucca is considered a joke in Italy and the rest of the sport, regardless of what fraudulent titles he might have.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Contador still has HOW many GT wins while doping? Garzelli is still a Giro winner.


I suggest you run to WADA with your evidence.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I suggest you run to WADA with your evidence.


I would have thought riding for Johan would be enough evidence by your standards if he were someone else.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> I would have thought riding for Johan would be enough evidence by your standards if he were someone else.


Excellent day of trolling eh!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> *I would have thought *riding for Johan would be enough evidence by your standards if he were someone else.


Try thinking more and trolling less


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> I would have thought riding for Johan would be enough evidence by your standards if he were someone else.


You go Spade! 

Right the terrible injustice of poor little Lance getting stripped of his titles! Make sure everyone else looses theirs so its all even. 

Start your movement right here!!

Pharmacists for Pharmstrong!!!


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

spade2you said:


> I do hereby proclaim that you speaketh for me.
> 
> Not at all. Ya can't stop doping if you only strip Lance. If you do that, people will just act more like Froome. Otherwise the only lesson is to dope, but not be like Lance.


So, prove(and I mean, with actual evidence, not just "they have to be doping") that they were doping when they won those titles, and then go ahead and strip them. I mean, should be easy right, since everyone knows they were doping. Must be plenty of piss samples out there to re-test.


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## 80sroadie (Jul 30, 2012)

I know I am taking the risk of getting napalmed in the middle of this ongoing argument but I was wondering?? Didn't the other American postal riders who rode with D&$khead on from 1999-2006 also dope? I agree that they should have stripped his titles since he was proven to have doped, and I understand why they would have given reduced bans as an incentive to testify, but why wouldn't they strip every result during that period from every American rider who doped with him?


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

80sroadie said:


> I know I am taking the risk of getting napalmed in the middle of this ongoing argument but I was wondering?? Didn't the other American postal riders who rode with D&$khead on from 1999-2006 also dope? I agree that they should have stripped his titles since he was proven to have doped, and I understand why they would have given reduced bans as an incentive to testify, but why wouldn't they strip every result during that period from every American rider who doped with him?




Because their name wasn't Lance....

It's called politics.....Once you bust Capone, you can claim that gangs in Chicago are finished. So what if you let 20 other gangsters go free.... nobody will notice.

It looks real good on your resume. 

PS... I'm sure your insane ranting will get you marked as a troll, or better yet, someone who is being paid off by Armstrong...

It's hard to disagree with a mob, armed with pitchforks.
.
.

.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Because their name wasn't Lance....
> 
> It's hard to disagree with a mob, armed with pitchforks.
> 
> ...


If you post nonsense don't be surprised if people point out you are posting nonsense. 

Hincapie, Vande Velde, Danilson, Berry, Hamilton, Leipheimer and landis were all stripped of results.


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## 80sroadie (Jul 30, 2012)

Not sure if you were referring to me about nonsense?! I know they stripped some of their results but thought they left some intact during same/applicable time period? I admit that last time I looked it was on Wikipedia, so may not be the best source.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

80sroadie said:


> Not sure if you were referring to me about nonsense?! I know they stripped some of their results but thought they left some intact during same/applicable time period? I admit that last time I looked it was on Wikipedia, so may not be the best source.


For most of them they stripped them from the first time the signed the WADA code to when they "Stopped" doping. For some, like Levi, it was even more. He was stripped of over 7 years of results.


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## 80sroadie (Jul 30, 2012)

In Hamilton's "Secret Race.." He talks about Hincapie and Ekimov doping in 1997. Was that just unsubstantiated BS in his book and wasn't part of his testimony? If it was in his testimony did they pull all of big George's results from that time? I am actually a hincapie fan, he was always my favorite rider but if he doped then shouldn't they pull those results. In the end it's not about emotion or who you like, if someone breaks the rules they signed up to follow then IMO their results are not valid. 
I ask some of these questions because you guys seem to have spent a lot more time researching this. If they really did pulled ALL applicable results then I guess I just wasted your time.


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## 80sroadie (Jul 30, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> For most of them they stripped them from the first time the signed the WADA code to when they "Stopped" doping. For some, like Levi, it was even more. He was stripped of over 7 years of results.


Sorry was busy typing and didn't see this before last post


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

skitorski said:


> Tygart drives a Wenzeled Nissan Xterra on 44's with IFS in the mall lot, trolling for Pirates !!!!


:lol:

:Where'stheflipoffsmilie?!:


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

80sroadie said:


> In Hamilton's "Secret Race.." He talks about Hincapie and Ekimov doping in 1997. Was that just unsubstantiated BS in his book and wasn't part of his testimony? If it was in his testimony did they pull all of big George's results from that time? I am actually a hincapie fan, he was always my favorite rider but if he doped then shouldn't they pull those results. In the end it's not about emotion or who you like, if someone breaks the rules they signed up to follow then IMO their results are not valid.
> I ask some of these questions because you guys seem to have spent a lot more time researching this. If they really did pulled ALL applicable results then I guess I just wasted your time.


It comes down to tolling the SOL. For Lance this was easy as he had lied to multiple official inquiries and they had years of direct witness testimony. For others, like George, they did not have this.


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## 80sroadie (Jul 30, 2012)

Okay, I guess I hear you, but realistically they had all been lying to official inquiries by hiding their doping and cheating the tests. Plus if you are going to start using legal terms I'm going to surrender for now while I still have viable brain cells!


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

80sroadie said:


> Okay, I guess I hear you, but realistically they had all been lying to official inquiries by hiding their doping and cheating the tests. Plus if you are going to start using legal terms I'm going to surrender for now while I still have viable brain cells!


I think there is a discrepancy in that Armstrong's SOL got extended because of his 'conspiracy,' but other Posties got to keep earlier results because of SOL, WADA code dates and such. 

However! Armstrong chose not to fight this. If he had fought, maybe he would have won the argument that the 8 year SOL should apply to him.

But he didn't. He didn't cut a deal and he didn't fight. So the rest is academic.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

80sroadie said:


> I know I am taking the risk of getting napalmed in the middle of this ongoing argument but I was wondering?? Didn't the other American postal riders who rode with D&$khead on from 1999-2006 also dope? I agree that they should have stripped his titles since he was proven to have doped, and I understand why they would have given reduced bans as an incentive to testify, but why wouldn't they strip every result during that period from every American rider who doped with him?


Uh, they did strip those results. Try to read first, post second.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> I think there is a discrepancy in that Armstrong's SOL got extended because of his 'conspiracy,' but other Posties got to keep earlier results because of SOL, WADA code dates and such.
> 
> However! Armstrong chose not to fight this. If he had fought, maybe he would have won the argument that the 8 year SOL should apply to him.
> 
> But he didn't. He didn't cut a deal and he didn't fight. So the rest is academic.


Interesting point.

It's that the deal Pharmstrong said he regretted not taking now? 


Had Pharmstrong taken the deal, he would have kept most of his TDF wins and would have eventually been able to compete again. Is that correct?

I think he didn't take the deal because he was concerned about the law suits he had won and collected money from back when he was competing as well as maybe his concern for his sponsorships.

In the end all his fears were realized plus something I believe he failed to take into account: Be banned for life from competing in sanctioned events. It's so ironic; Of all the things on Pharmstrong's legal plate, what I think is really killing him/genuinely suffering from: Not being able to compete in a sanctioned event. 

Most people can deal with the humiliation and fall from grace. It's their wallet taking a big hit that hurts said people the most. Not Pharmstrong. Him not being able to compete, IMHO, hurts him 10 times worse than the huge hit his wallet is taking.

Because I think he's a genuine narcissist, I think it's one of the traits/factors of said narcissism that's the cause/reason it's so painful for Pharmstrong not being able to compete and fulfill his narcissist needs.


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## skitorski (Dec 4, 2012)

cda 455 said:


> :lol:
> 
> :Where'stheflipoffsmilie?!:


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

cda 455 said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> It's that the deal Pharmstrong said he regretted not taking now?
> 
> ...


I think a deal would have required him to sit down and confess to what he did / knows in detail. That detailed confession likely includes things that were illegal. And as you say, would have put him in a bad position with all these lawsuits. 

Between possible jail time and TdF titles, I think most would agree to dump the titles overboard. 

I do think WADA should cap SOLs. Maybe 8 years for regular offenses, 12 years for a 'conspiracy,' but no SOL caps for team managers and Doctors.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

skitorski said:


>



There it is :lol: !


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

cda 455 said:


> There it is :lol: !


:thumbsup:

I still get birthday greetings from the webmaster at Pirate 4x4. :lol:


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## 80sroadie (Jul 30, 2012)

Fireform said:


> Uh, they did strip those results. Try to read first, post second.


What is the best location to get this information. Like I acknowledged earlier I do tend to look at Wikipedia (which I also acknowledged may not be accurate), it currently says they only voided Hincapies results starting in 2004. If that's true there are lots of good doped results still on the books thanks to his participation in postal pharmacy services. 1999-2003. I believe Falsetti answered my question when he refered to the use of the SOL. I'm serious about my question concerning pro-cycling records. What is considered best place to research. When I was on UCI site it only went back to 2004.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

A complete list of athletes sanctioned by USADA may be found here: https://www.usada.org/sanctions/

I have found the Wikipedia pages of the individual athletes to be more up to date than those of the events. Hincapie's Wikipedia page, for instance, now lists him with 6 major career wins, none of which are between 2002 and 2008.


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