# Lactic acid build-up?



## Oregonazm (Apr 13, 2010)

My legs are really bogging down when I need the high end power and speed on the last lap of the crit. I recently implemented Tabata (20/10 x 8) intervals in my spin bike workouts. I do them after about 40 minutes of other interval work. But my legs are seizing up by the end of the second Tabata interval. I am doing the 20 seconds in a standing sprint. I can work through the lactic burn but at a reduced leg speed. And that reduces the level of cardio intensity for the intervals. My goal is to have the standing power and leg speed for the end of a race.

BTW, I am 48. I am doing good if my schedule allows 8-10 hours a week. That includes the crit race.

I am looking for ideas that might help to improve my condition.

Thanks.


----------



## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

Oregonazm said:


> My legs are really bogging down when I need the high end power and speed on the last lap of the crit. I recently implemented Tabata (20/10 x 8) intervals in my spin bike workouts. I do them after about 40 minutes of other interval work. But my legs are seizing up by the end of the second Tabata interval. I am doing the 20 seconds in a standing sprint. I can work through the lactic burn but at a reduced leg speed. And that reduces the level of cardio intensity for the intervals. My goal is to have the standing power and leg speed for the end of a race.
> 
> BTW, I am 48. I am doing good if my schedule allows 8-10 hours a week. That includes the crit race.


Uh, too many intervals?

How often do you do intervals anyway? And at 48 (I'm 47) you probably need more recovery than you think you do. It's a lesson I've learned.


----------



## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

"end of the race"

leg speed/strength may not be the issue

how much riding are you getting in at endurance or tempo pace?


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Oregonazm said:


> My legs are really bogging down when I need the high end power and speed on the last lap of the crit.


man, you and me both. 

1) if you can arrive at the last lap with the leaders, in the top10 places or so, that's a good step already
2) if you can make it to the final 200 meters or so in the top 5 or so, that's really good
3) next you have to have the ability to accelerate from that already-fast speed to a max sprint speed that's higher than the other guys. work on that.

tip: spin. most guys use way too big of a gear in the final sprint. wind it up fast.


----------



## Oregonazm (Apr 13, 2010)

The 3 previous responses are good points for my situation.

1. I have been doing more interval workouts at the expense of doing tempo endurance rides due to weather conditions and family responsibilities. My performance at the crits isn't important enough to me to sacrifice the little time I have to ride in order to rest for the weekly race. So I am coming to the races with slightly tired/sore legs already. Just staying in the pack is relatively easy. I will usually try to jump on a couple of possible breaks. I must admit I am starting to feel unsatisfied rolling in at the back of the finishing pack. I don't even attempt to sprint unless I am in the top ten.

2. I don't have any longer endurance/tempo rides under my belt this year. The only 2 rides I had over 2.5 hours were major extended hill climbs. I think this could be the significant factor. My daughter's softball season is over this weekend. That is going to open up a lot more time for long rides. After next week's crit we are headed to Park City, Utah for a week and a half. That time will just be mtbing. That will be a lot of climbing at higher elevation. I should lose a few pounds on that trip. When I get back, I should be able to get out for some long road rides.

3. The one thing I have focused on this winter has been improving my leg speed and pedal strokes on the spin bike. I have really worked on my standing leg speed. I was hoping I could use that at the end of the race. I totally agree most people are using too big of a gear for the sprint.

4. I am learning to accept what life has to offer. It looks like I have the opportunity to make some adjustments in July. I can focus up on improving my performance at the Tuesday crits in August.


----------



## CyclingDrew (Jun 6, 2012)

Just as an aside from the information here, I was given this link by my brother who recently completed a ride from Florida to Maine, it has to do with combating lactic acid buildup.. May not be specifically what your looking for, but I've tried it on some long rides and notice a difference at the end of the day with the amount of perceived fatigue in my legs.

livestrong.com/article/482173-how-to-reduce-lactic-acid-during-a-workout-what-to-eat


----------



## durianrider (Sep 26, 2009)

Want less lactic acid? Go vegan! All the acids and metabolic waste products from the animal products people consume don't just magically disappear when people consume them. Your kidney, liver, lymph systems etc have to filter and process and eliminate them. That means less ability to process lactic acid etc.

Dairy is full of lactic acid as is fish, cow, chicken etc. Eat more fruits, rice, veg, yams etc.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

durianrider said:


> Want less lactic acid? Go vegan! All the acids and metabolic waste products from the animal products people consume don't just magically disappear when people consume them. Your kidney, liver, lymph systems etc have to filter and process and eliminate them. That means less ability to process lactic acid etc.
> 
> Dairy is full of lactic acid as is fish, cow, chicken etc. Eat more fruits, rice, veg, yams etc.


Your body will produce lactic acid as a byproduct of anaerobic metabolism whether you're vegan or atkins. 

The problem in the OP's case is not likely his diet. It's probably partly to do with some overtraining syndrome as well as suffering from not maintaining his endurance as well as he could be.


----------



## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

When you do the recovery portion on an interval workout, make sure it's an insanely easy pace. A lot of people (including me half of the time) don't properly recover between intervals.

To take the edge off of the lactic acid burn, I take Sportlegs. Works for me, YMMV. I'm actually more religious about taking them in the off season, when I'm on the trainer doing extremely focused workouts. It doesn't completely kill the burn, but allows me to push a little further and harder- kinda like workout ******. A bottle isn't that expensive ($27), so it's worth a shot. There are other lactic acid buffering formulas out there, but I haven't gotten around to trying them.

All that said, the best way I've found to get past the burn is to be in better shape, which means more intensity and effective recovery.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

This article is pretty interesting:

The Lactic Acid Myths


----------



## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

IMO, I think you might be better served by performing anaerobic capacity intervals, once a week. 1-2 minutes all out, then spin very easy for 3-4 minutes. Repeat 5 or 6 times. Quality more important than quantity. That better simulates the final laps of a crit. 

Since you are staying with the pack just fine, I would say your threshold power is in a good place relative to the group your racing with; as well as your rate of recovery from hard efforts. AC power seems to be your weakness. 

Raising your threshold can help as well though. And that comes from riding a lot below threshold with a smart balance of aerobic, tempo, and threshold zones; the key word being "smart".


----------



## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

durianrider said:


> Want less lactic acid? Go vegan! All the acids and metabolic waste products from the animal products people consume don't just magically disappear when people consume them. Your kidney, liver, lymph systems etc have to filter and process and eliminate them. That means less ability to process lactic acid etc.
> 
> Dairy is full of lactic acid as is fish, cow, chicken etc. Eat more fruits, rice, veg, yams etc.


That is EXACTLY how it works.......

Post the data illustrating your point.....

Wait....you don't have any support for your case. Buzz. Next.


----------



## stumonky (Sep 29, 2007)

I do tabata 2 or 3 times a week but only on days when I do nothing else. In some cases 4 minutes of tabata will drain me just as much as an hour speedwork intervals. In your case, I think you are overtraining.


----------



## Ric_Stern/RST (Oct 22, 2004)

Oregonazm said:


> My legs are really bogging down when I need the high end power and speed on the last lap of the crit. I recently implemented Tabata (20/10 x 8) intervals in my spin bike workouts. I do them after about 40 minutes of other interval work. But my legs are seizing up by the end of the second Tabata interval. I am doing the 20 seconds in a standing sprint. I can work through the lactic burn but at a reduced leg speed. And that reduces the level of cardio intensity for the intervals. My goal is to have the standing power and leg speed for the end of a race.
> 
> BTW, I am 48. I am doing good if my schedule allows 8-10 hours a week. That includes the crit race.
> 
> ...


with 8 to 10 hours or so per week available to train, i think you have plenty of time for improving and getting fitter. it's just a question of working out the correct training for your goals (which is beyond the scope of a forum answer)

ric


----------



## wblas3271 (May 12, 2012)

durianrider said:


> Want less lactic acid? Go vegan! All the acids and metabolic waste products from the animal products people consume don't just magically disappear when people consume them. Your kidney, liver, lymph systems etc have to filter and process and eliminate them. That means less ability to process lactic acid etc.
> 
> Dairy is full of lactic acid as is fish, cow, chicken etc. Eat more fruits, rice, veg, yams etc.


Everybody knows the only way to get rid of lactic acid is rubbing your legs with crystals infused with the power of 10 psychics, stop misleading people.


----------



## nov0798 (Mar 5, 2011)

durianrider said:


> Want less lactic acid? Go vegan! All the acids and metabolic waste products from the animal products people consume don't just magically disappear when people consume them. Your kidney, liver, lymph systems etc have to filter and process and eliminate them. That means less ability to process lactic acid etc.
> 
> Dairy is full of lactic acid as is fish, cow, chicken etc. Eat more fruits, rice, veg, yams etc.


Wrong!
Lactic acidosis is a physiological condition characterized by low pH in body tissues and blood (acidosis) accompanied by the buildup of lactate especially D-lactate, and is considered a distinct form of metabolic acidosis.The condition typically occurs when cells receive too little oxygen (hypoxia), for example, during vigorous exercise.


----------



## davidm724 (Jul 20, 2012)

New guy here, don't mind me... But, I heard that spinning really quick for about a minute helps flush lactic acid out of your legs. Is that BS? Of course, nobody wants to do that in a race, and doesn't solve the problem...


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Spinning*



davidm724 said:


> New guy here, don't mind me... But, I heard that spinning really quick for about a minute helps flush lactic acid out of your legs. Is that BS? Of course, nobody wants to do that in a race, and doesn't solve the problem...


Apparently you haven't read the information carefully. Lactic acid is a fuel and doesn't need to be flushed from your legs. If your muscles are aching, then spinning will help you recover but trying to spin at 130 rpm (or whatever is "really quick" for you) is not needed or likely effective.


----------



## nov0798 (Mar 5, 2011)

..........


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

looigi said:


> This article is pretty interesting:
> 
> The Lactic Acid Myths



Veeeery interesting reading :thumbsup: !


Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Canaboo (Jan 7, 2010)

When are people finally going to get the whole lactic acid concept? It's incredible how many people apparently read way too much and don't stumble over the "lactic acid myths" info and take that in.
Also doing Tabata reps after other intervals is pointless. Unless you are trying to develop low power levels when you are tired.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

nov0798 said:


> The condition typically occurs when cells receive too little oxygen (hypoxia), for example, during vigorous exercise.


I think a better way of looking at is that lactic acid accumulates when glycolysis is occurring too fast for the mitochondria to accept all of its product (pyruvate). Or another way to say it might be that anaerobic energy production is outstripping oxidative energy production. This is taking into account all the muscle cells that are doing work.

It's kind of misleading to say the cells are receiving too little oxygen, as they are likely receiving as much oxygen as they are capable of receiving. So at least at the moment it's occurring it's not really an oxygen delivery problem. It's also interesting that lactic acid usually starts accumulating somewhere in the 80 - 90% of VO2max range, so your cardiovascular system and muscles clearly have some "reserve" to deliver and use more oxygen than when you go "anaerobic".


----------



## homebrewevolver (Jul 21, 2012)

beta-alinine.

is a lactic acid buffer that prevents lactic acid from pooling in your muscles and decreases the ph lvl of your muscles. 

its pretty cheap/common supplement and is used by lot of cyclists including team sky.


----------



## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Wow, is noone reading the above attachment. Please stop referring to Lactic acid pooling
in muscles. I drink Cytomax too, and at the end of a 2 hour hammer, plenty of unpleasantness
(whatever the hell causes it) is pooling around in my legs. I blame it on quarks and fruons.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

phoehn9111 said:


> Wow, is noone reading the above attachment. Please stop referring to Lactic acid pooling
> in muscles. I drink Cytomax too, and at the end of a 2 hour hammer, plenty of unpleasantness
> (whatever the hell causes it) is pooling around in my legs. I blame it on quarks and fruons.


It's the thetans.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

homebrewevolver said:


> beta-alinine.
> 
> is a lactic acid buffer that prevents lactic acid from pooling in your muscles and decreases the ph lvl of your muscles.
> 
> its pretty cheap/common supplement and is used by lot of cyclists including team sky.


Yep, used by Team Sky, along with whatever other garbage they're injecting themselves with.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

phoehn9111 said:


> Wow, is noone reading the above attachment. Please stop referring to Lactic acid pooling
> in muscles. I drink Cytomax too, and at the end of a 2 hour hammer, plenty of unpleasantness
> (whatever the hell causes it) is pooling around in my legs. I blame it on quarks and fruons.



Lactate (As the author refers to lactic acid) is a _fuel source_ for the muscles. 


That; I found astounding.


----------



## steresi2 (May 4, 2012)

*Clarity on Beta Alanine*



homebrewevolver said:


> beta-alinine.
> 
> is a lactic acid buffer that prevents lactic acid from pooling in your muscles and decreases the ph lvl of your muscles.
> 
> its pretty cheap/common supplement and is used by lot of cyclists including team sky.


Just to add a bit of clarity Beta-alanine is not a lactic acid buffer. It is a key amino acid building block to a biochemical molecule called carnosine. Carnosine is naturally occurring in our muscles and helps to buffer the excess (H+) that is produced during high intensity exercise. The excess production (H+) is what some in this forum are referring to as "Lactic Acid" Technically, lactic acid is produced by the increased utilization of glycogen and is immediately broken down into Lactate (La-), which is used by the muscle for fuel and the hydrogen ion (H+). It is this (H+) that causes the muscle burn and ultimately fatigue. The carnosine in our muscles buffer these excess (H+) ions. The production of carnosine is limited by the availability of beta-alanine stored in our muscles. Studies have showed that supplementing with beta-alanine increases muscle carnosine levels. 

Stellingwerff T, Anwander H, Egger A, Buehler T, Kreis R, Boesch C,
Decombaz J. The Effect Of Two ß-alanine Dosing Protocols On
Muscle Carnosine Synthesis and Washout. Med Sci Sports Exerc
2010; 42: S929.


----------

