# Terrible experience with Yishun and Stefano. Warning long post ahead!



## MercuryMan76 (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm writing this thread in order to tell others about the terrible experience I've had working with Stefano and Karen from Yishunbike. I'm not here to flame these folks as I know many others have had no problems working with them, but I just want everyone to know some of the pitfalls you may run into when ordering from them.

First of all, let me say that I'm also not a basher of the Chinese/Taiwanese carbon manufacturers. On the contrary, I've bought a frame, wheels, and bits and pieces from multiple sources (look through some of my past postings). However, the customer service from Stefano and the folks at Yishun has been absolutely HORRENDOUS!!!. 

I placed an order for two 38mm carbon clinchers back in December which were delivered in early January. I paid a total of about $1200 for the wheels including shipping and upon receiving them, everything looked fine. However, I use KCNC C7 brakesets on my bike and as others here with boutique brakesets have noted, the lowered braking surface on the wheels make it difficult, if not impossible, to properly align the brake pad with the braking surface of the rims. 

Here's several photos for reference to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

















As you can see, the brakepad is positioned in its lowest possible adjustment point in my brake caliper and the pad is clearly nowhere near being centered in the braking surface. This is the same for both front and rear brakesets that were mounted on a BMC ProMachine.

I immediately contacted Stefano about this and let him know my problem. After about a week of saying he would check with the production team he let me know that this is a problem that they see with approximately 2-3% of the wheelsets they sell and offered me a full refund if I wasn't happy with the wheelsets. So everything is great up until this point. Stefano's communication has been consistent, he's offered me a refund, I'm happy so far. But from here it all goes downhill.

I ship the wheelsets back to the address Stefano indicated on January 18th and immediately email Stefano to let him know they are both on their way and provide him with the USPS tracking numbers as well. I had to pay $120 to ship these back, but I understand that's the risk you take when dealing with someone internationally. I keep tracking the packages on the USPS website and find that two attempted deliveries were made on January 22nd, and January 23rd. I contact Stefano to ask him why the packages weren't accepted and he says that he will contact "administration" and assures me that it will all be taken care of. 

Well, this goes on for about a week, and through the Chinese New Year so we're now into early February and still the USPS website doesn't show these wheels being delivered. I call USPS and am told that the addressee needs to contact the local EMS service to request the delivery of the packages. So I email Stefano again to tell him this, and again, Stefano says he will contact "administration" but again assures me not to worry.

Another week goes by and we're now into mid-February with nothing being done. It's around this time that I get an email from Karen who is the "aftersales manager" and she also assures me that a refund will be coming shortly. But by this time, the USPS website shows that the EMS is preparing to ship the wheels back because they couldn't deliver them to the addressee. So now I'm starting to get a little freaked out and angry. I email both Karen and Stefano asking why the wheels are being shipped back to me and in response I simply get emails saying not to worry and it will get taken care of.

Well low and behold Karen finally emails me to tell me that the wheels have been shipped back to me by EMS (sidenote, I haven't received them back yet) and asks me what the problems was with them. I tell her the same thing I told Stefano and even sent her the pics above to show her my dilemma. This is the response I received from her yesterday:
_______________________
Hello Damon,
Thanks for your email.
Iam still thinking how to reply you!
Pls wait. we still didn't find the mistake on our wheels and We don't know what have to do.
I hope you got the wheels back from usps. It is the urgent thing we have to do.
You could sell the wheels on ebay to usa.
will bring you profit to cut the shipping cost you have paid.
For the shipping problem, We have no information from ems when the wheels in china.

Or you could change the brake clamp to fit the braking surface well.
For the refund by credit card.we have nothing to do but wait.
You could send an inquiry by your credit card company to see what they are going to do.
Iam still confused for this deal. hope you could understand our situation.
Have a nice day!
best regards
Karen
___________________________

So basically she's telling me that I can either sell the wheelsets on ebay or I can buy new brakes. WTF??? At this point I've resigned myself to the fact that nothing is going to come of this. And I'm not trying to debate the quality or construction of the product...all I'm saying is that it wasn't compatible with my setup, I was told I could get a refund, I paid an additional $120 to ship the items back, the items are now apparently being sent back to me, and Stefano and Karen have basically provided me with some of the worst customer service I have ever experienced. 

Sorry for the long post, but I just want to inform others of the potential pitfalls you might have in dealing with Stefano and the folks at Yishun. This is actually the short side of the story as I've got probably 2-3 dozen emails from Karen and Stefano throughout this entire process that I left out of the mix. I'm just one out of many others that haven't had any problems with them, but since my issue centered around customer service, and not quality of product issues, I think it may provide some foresight into what may happen if there are any issues with products purchased from them.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

The fake names are a nice touch as well. yeah I suppose the person who wrote that could be named Karen and the person who used to spam here could be named Tony but I kind of doubt it.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

A couple thoughts.............

- the lower brake surface will aid in preventing warping.
- find a pair of brake pad extenders to lower the pads.
- or
- take a piece of 400 grit sandpaper and remove the clear coat at the edge of the rim, effectively widening the brake surface. Yishun does not use a "special" brake surface coating.
-$1200 ?
- I still don't understand the value of going through Stefano to get to Yishun.

.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

Hank Stamper said:


> The fake names are a nice touch as well. yeah I suppose the person who wrote that could be named Karen and the person who used to spam here could be named Tony but I kind of doubt it.



It's really not a case of "fake" names. It's common to adopt an "American" name for communicating purposes. Their are many Asian citizens employed in my building that have adopted "American" names, as their given name is either challenging to pronounce or translates poorly.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm not clear on why you returned the wheels.

From what I've read the brakes you used have a 40mm-55mm reach. Did the wheel's specs say what reach brakes should be used? Did you check before buying?

It sounds like these wheels should be used with long reach 47mm-57mm brakes.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Huh...
My Williams have lowered brake tracks and I've used KCNC, Mavic and Shimano brakes with them...all without issue.

Instead of bashing the company for a problem that's non-existent, try another brake setup to solve the problem. Sounds like that may have been the cheaper way to go anyhow...


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

backinthesaddle said:


> Huh...
> My Williams have lowered brake tracks and I've used KCNC, Mavic and Shimano brakes with them...all without issue.
> 
> Instead of bashing the company for a problem that's non-existent, try another brake setup to solve the problem. Sounds like that may have been the cheaper way to go anyhow...



That's basically what I was trying to say.. It doesn't sound like the wheel was defective. It sounds more like a brake issue...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> I'm not clear on why you returned the wheels.
> 
> From what I've read the brakes you used have a 40mm-55mm reach. Did the wheel's specs say what reach brakes should be used? Did you check before buying?
> 
> It sounds like these wheels should be used with long reach 47mm-57mm brakes.


I don't think they ever say on their website or in their information that long reach brakes are required to use their wheels.

A couple of people have had that problem with those wheels.

From what I can gather, he returned them because he emailed Stefano and said "look, you didn't tell me I need XXX style caliper, these don't work with my bike" and Stefano told him "sure, we can refund you for them, no problem."

Cue problem...


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## MercuryMan76 (Apr 17, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> I don't think they ever say on their website or in their information that long reach brakes are required to use their wheels.
> 
> A couple of people have had that problem with those wheels.
> 
> ...


Robdamanii is correct. I'm not bashing their company for the product itself. It just didn't happen to work with my particular setup. And when I contacted Stefano about this he openly admitted that this is something they have seen with other customers and, therefore, stated that I could receive a refund if I shipped the wheels back at my cost. Which I did. 

Now for them not to accept the delivery of the wheels and then not respond to my multiple emails to Stefano telling him that EMS had attempted to deliver the wheels on two separate occasions and then asking him to let his office know that they needed to contact EMS to request another delivery attempt be made, all the while he is telling me not to worry and that they will take care of it, is where the problem lies. 

If they know that their wheelsets will only work properly with Shimano, Campy, or SRAM brakesets perhaps this is something they should state as a disclaimer. Perhaps not. I'm not trying to argue that point. But if they state that they will accept the item back and refund a customer because of this, and the customer follows through with the return, then they should stand by their word and do what they can to stand by their commitment.

The problem I'm stuck with now is that I'm out an additional $120 that I had to pay to ship these back, and I'm still stuck with a set of wheels that I can't use. On top of this, for them to tell me "change your brake setup" or "sell them on ebay" is just a blatant slap in the face in my opinion.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

I posted this in my thread before it got locked (still don't know why).

If your running Shimano/SRAM brake calipers you should have no issue with the arm length. I compared my Zero G's to an Ultegra and the Ultegra arms are way longer. Lol...think they are long enough to run a 650c.

I think that some of the boutique brakes cut material to save weight. I guess in order to do that...they made the brakes arms as short as they thought possible.

The other issue I had was the fork. The 3T is a straight legged fork. So I guess to get the correct offset, they have to tilt the fork legs up at the crown. When they did that...the hole for the caliper to mount also tilted up, effectively shortening the reach of the caliper. So when I mounted my caliper, the pads did not reach the low brake track.

MercuryMan's bike looks like its a BMC...and I'm pretty sure that they come with a straight leg fork. Lo and behold he's using KCNC brakes which are light weight brakes.

Now the fork on my System Six curves at the bottom, soooo....the brake mount hole follows the line of the head tube. My caliper is not as tilted up like it was with the 3T and since switching to the System...I have no issues with the arm length.

It was a combination of things that caused my problem: 1 was the low brake track, 2 the rake of the "straight leg" 3T fork, last the Zero G arms.

This is now my pads sit on the System Six fork. I have no issues now.











Get these they should fix your issue.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Matador-IV said:


> A couple thoughts.............
> 
> - the lower brake surface will aid in preventing warping.
> - find a pair of brake pad extenders to lower the pads.
> ...


The only point in here that makes sense is the last one. You really think sanding the rims is a smart choice?

And OP, this really sucks that you had to go through all of this. Sounds to me like you have a pretty damn good reason to be angry.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Instead of wasting 120 bucks on shipping, why didnt you use that 120 bucks to buy new brakes? It seems like this could have been solved on your end, months ago.


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## rgordin (Oct 22, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> I don't think they ever say on their website or in their information that long reach brakes are required to use their wheels.
> 
> A couple of people have had that problem with those wheels.
> 
> ...


+1 The issue is about what the manufacturer told the OP about a return and whether the manufacturer honored that particular commitment.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

If you're paying to ship something large and expensive around the world, its a good idea to know what you're buying before hand. It sounds like the OP got 100% exactly what he paid for, in a timely fashion.. 

If you're the kind of shopper who needs ease of return, you should never buy anything from overseas. Ive had things held up in Chinese mail for 3 months, just because thats how the mail goes in China sometimes. Its a risk you take buying anything from China/ROC. 

Not defending Yishun, or asian business, but if you're going to import stuff you need to know what you're dealing with. The OP is out shipping, but its not too late to put those on ebay and move on. He already agreed to take a 120 dollar loss by shipping them back, that money could have been used to solve the problem with new brakes, or by selling them to someone else.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

Zen Cyclery said:


> You really think sanding the rims is a smart choice?


Your not sanding the rim, simply the clear coat.

So, yes it is a smart choice considering his circumstances (assuming he's unable to return the wheels and insists on using existing brakes). The wheels are not worth $1200 so selling is not an option.


We do alot of prototype work with CF, so I'm comfortable with my suggestion.


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## petepeterson (Jan 4, 2011)

Did you get two sets for that $?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm curious about the shipping back to them. 

I'm in the transportation industry and I know there can be a lot of issues when dealing with local customs officials

What did you use for country of origin on the paperwork you supplied to USPS? Did you declare full value?

I'm not excusing their lack of service but if I had to guess, the clearance, duties and taxes on the return wheelset were more than they were willing to pay.. 

Bringing returns goods back into a country is a major PIA....Based on the tracking info you provided, it seems be back this up. EMS attempted a couple of times but they won't deliver until they have cash in hand for duties and taxes.... 

Rereading your post, I agree....they should of never told you to ship them back. That is where the ball was dropped..


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

Hank Stamper said:


> The fake names are a nice touch as well. yeah I suppose the person who wrote that could be named Karen and the person who used to spam here could be named Tony but I kind of doubt it.


Don't make that a big deal. It's actually to be polite for not making us feel like dorks not being able to pronounce their real names.

Most brakes/bikes wouldn't need a lowered brake shoe, but yes. It should be mentioned. 
In fact. I can't see that they even say the clinchers have lowered brake area.

Truth is. Thou it's a cheap way to come around the de-laminar problem, no one has really solved the issue
It's still probably the safest way to do it. All clincher CF clincher rims should have slightly lowered pads.

I understand that OP is angry for not picking up that information, and TBH, that wasn't too easy to do at Yishun's site
That said. He didn't seem very focused on solving the problem before posting a huge rant


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Matador-IV said:


> It's really not a case of "fake" names. It's common to adopt an "American" name for communicating purposes. Their are many Asian citizens employed in my building that have adopted "American" names, as their given name is either challenging to pronounce or translates poorly.


This is my experience too.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

backinthesaddle said:


> Huh...
> My Williams have lowered brake tracks and I've used KCNC, Mavic and Shimano brakes with them...all without issue.
> 
> Instead of bashing the company for a problem that's non-existent, try another brake setup to solve the problem. Sounds like that may have been the cheaper way to go anyhow...


there really seems to be a reading comprehension issue in this thread.

The problem (leading to the complaint) that the OP clearly states in his post is that the manufacturer instructed him to send the wheels back and told him a refund would be forthcoming. Subsequently, they refused the shipment, rescinded the offer for a refund and offered the rather glib advice, "sell them on ebay for a profit".


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

The thing I find the most interesting is people saying "just go get new brakes."

I bought the brakes I wanted for my bike, and I"ll be damned if I am going to replace them because the cheap wheels I bought don't work with them.


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## ntb1001 (Jan 19, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> The thing I find the most interesting is people saying "just go get new brakes."
> 
> I bought the brakes I wanted for my bike, and I"ll be damned if I am going to replace them because the cheap wheels I bought don't work with them.



I don't know...you bought something overseas taking a risk for financial gain. 
You got the product , but because of some personal equipment choices you have some incompatibility problems.
You spend $120 to ship the wheels and mount an email war with the seller/distributor who is at a arms length from the manufacture across the world.
You're not exactly shopping at wall mart with a large return counter.
It defiantly would have been easier to buy new brakes with your money, or even just some brake pad extenders which only cost a couple of bucks...put then everybody wouldn't know how unhappy you are.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ntb1001 said:


> I don't know...you bought something overseas taking a risk for financial gain.
> You got the product , but because of some personal equipment choices you have some incompatibility problems.
> You spend $120 to ship the wheels and mount an email war with the seller/distributor who is at a arms length from the manufacture across the world.
> You're not exactly shopping at wall mart with a large return counter.
> It defiantly would have been easier to buy new brakes with your money, or even just some brake pad extenders which only cost a couple of bucks...put then everybody wouldn't know how unhappy you are.


You're not going to buy brakes similar to KCNC for $120.

And yet again, this has everything to do with Yishun telling him "go ahead and send them back and we'll refund you" and then going back on their word. Suggestions such as "buy new brakes" are irrelevant when the issue is due to what Yishun told him to do.


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## diver160651 (Sep 13, 2010)

BTW a ton of new carbon clincher wheels have reduced brake tracks.. Most are private labeled out of Giantex. Williams, Token etc.. The situation is not unique or a mfg defect. Many riders love these wheels.

Another thing for all to consider when trying to save $$, is interchangeability. I have a bunch of carbon wheels.. all can be swapped because they use a standard brake position. I can switch the enve's with the zipps, reynolds (made over seas, but designed here), clinchers with sewups or whatever, as long as I keep the CX wheels and tires with the CX bikes (tires to fat).

I tried to save a few $$ and got a non-US CC with a reduced brake track.. boy what a mess.. 4 me. But it wasn't a MFG error, just an error on my part. I took responsibility and sold them on ebay.. Yes, I lost a few $$.

But that said, Yishun complicated things with his communication and I feel badly for you. Not sure the rant is well placed however.

Jt


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> You're not going to buy brakes similar to KCNC for $120.
> 
> And yet again, this has everything to do with Yishun telling him "go ahead and send them back and we'll refund you" and then going back on their word. Suggestions such as "buy new brakes" are irrelevant when the issue is due to what Yishun told him to do.


If this was an american company, Id agree. Its not though.

lets just say Yishun accepted the wheels, and promptly refunded the money. He'd still be out *240 dollars* in international shipping! If yishun decided to take a financial loss because the customer didnt know what he was buying (by no fault of yishun), and refunded him the 1 way shipping in addition to the cost of the wheels, hes still out 120 bucks for the one way return. 

Best case scenario, when everything goes 100% as planned and described, shipping stuff back to china/ROC is a losing proposition.. thats the real point. Buying new brakes is a drastically better option. If new brakes arent on the table, putting the wheels on ebay is a drastically better option. 

People get too caught up in the low prices of buying direct.. I mean 500-600 bucks for carbon clinchers that cost 2000 stateside is pretty appealing. Appealing enough to glaze over the de facto rules of international business. Its not just free savings, you put a certain amount on the line doing these types of trades. Its pretty much up to you to know what you're buying, what to expect when it shows up, and know that its on you afterwards.

Not saying anyones wrong, not saying it doesnt suck, because it really does.. especially when its that much money. 

If you pay yishun 600 bucks, you'll get some carbon wheels in a couple weeks. Everything else is on you.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

TomH said:


> If this was an american company, Id agree. Its not though.
> 
> lets just say Yishun accepted the wheels, and promptly refunded the money. He'd still be out *240 dollars* in international shipping! If yishun decided to take a financial loss because the customer didnt know what he was buying (by no fault of yishun), and refunded him the 1 way shipping in addition to the cost of the wheels, hes still out 120 bucks for the one way return.
> 
> ...


Without a doubt, I agree with you.

I just find the proposition of "meh, just go out and buy new brakes" as no solution to the problem. And you're right, this isn't a stateside company, so everything they actually say is suspect to me, but I can empathize with the OP when he gets a "return them and we'll credit you" only to be told "sorry, you paid an extra $120 to ship, we don't want 'em, sell 'em and go away."

Really, it's not about the wheels, or brakes, or brake track, or anything else. For me it's about telling him it's ok to spend $120 to send them back, then going back on their word. THAT'S really sh*tty.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

The whole overseas deal with shipping is a PITA. If it worked than great, any problems the delays and costs to go back-forth quickly erode the savings whether in $ or time.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Wish someone with $$$ to burn would cut one of these Yishuns in half and post pics......................just sayin.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Honestly...these would probably fix the problem. His pads are not that far off.


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## MercuryMan76 (Apr 17, 2009)

Lectron said:


> I understand that OP is angry for not picking up that information, and TBH, that wasn't too easy to do at Yishun's site
> That said. He didn't seem very focused on solving the problem before posting a huge rant


I actually went well out of my way to solve the problem before posting here. I have probably 2 dozen or so emails back and forth with Stefano and about a dozen more with Karen trying to resolve the problem before I posted here. Not to mention that the first delivery attempt by EMS to return the wheels to them was on January 22nd. I think 3+ dozen emails and 6 weeks is quite a bit of effort and waiting to put into resolving the problem before I made it known on this board.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

MercuryMan76 said:


> I actually went well out of my way to solve the problem before posting here. I have probably 2 dozen or so emails back and forth with Stefano and about a dozen more with Karen trying to resolve the problem before I posted here. Not to mention that the first delivery attempt by EMS to return the wheels to them was on January 22nd. I think 3+ dozen emails and 6 weeks is quite a bit of effort and waiting to put into resolving the problem before I made it known on this board.


No offense, please, but that is not the way it works....

You do not deal with your LBS. If you are not prepared to completely cut the line with the vendor 
after your bank-transfer, you should have stayed with your LBS or vendors with a reputation.

At those prices, there are no room in their cash-flow to do any followup's, and they _usually_ don't

In Norway. Everything we sell over counter or mail has 5yr warranty.
Everything purchased over web/mail has 30days no questions asked return

That is regulated by Norwegian Government laws. We have to stick to that. China/TW selling to US don't.

I buy from china and TW, and even at my quantities I know. If a product in question
does not fulfill my expectations, I carry the load....In many cases.
Sometimes you need to price things higher due to the expectations of having 25% returns.
You didn't put those factors in your spreadsheet and was tempted by the price that looked
like a bargain. And by all means. Yishun wheels are great for the price..If everything turns out great...

You should have asked for a solution here first. Would have saved you a lot of frustrations


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

metoou2 said:


> Wish someone with $$$ to burn would cut one of these Yishuns in half and post pics......................just sayin.



Definitely don't have money to burn. . .but I do have lots of rims laying around (from a few different manufacturers).

Here is the cross section off a Yinshun rim. The gray thing along the spoke hole is actually a strip of metal to reinforce against spokes pulling through. I don't think that there's anything particularly wrong with that, but a strong carbon rim shouldn't need it. To compensate for the weight the side walls of the rims are a lot thinner than all of the other rims that I have seen. That is what leads to the side of the rim cracking near the valve hole (because of the extra hole drilled there), I have seen this happen a few times.


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## tennbanshee (Feb 17, 2011)

It's important to note that the issue here is that Yishun gave direction and offered constant reassurance that they were going to take care of this. Yishun's common response is to tell customers to "not worry" they are going to make it right. The reality is that in the situations described in this thread (and others) is that Yishun has no intentions of addressing the concerns. 

The fact of the matter is that Yishun Bike communicates one thing and then do not do what they claim they are going to do. That's the take away on this thread.


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## Jesserue (Sep 26, 2008)

coachboyd said:


> Definitely don't have money to burn. . .but I do have lots of rims laying around (from a few different manufacturers).
> 
> Here is the cross section off a Yinshun rim. The gray thing along the spoke hole is actually a strip of metal to reinforce against spokes pulling through. I don't think that there's anything particularly wrong with that, but a strong carbon rim shouldn't need it. To compensate for the weight the side walls of the rims are a lot thinner than all of the other rims that I have seen. That is what leads to the side of the rim cracking near the valve hole (because of the extra hole drilled there), *I have seen this happen a few times.*


Thanks for the photo Coach. Have you specifically seen this occur on Yishun rims?


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## rgordin (Oct 22, 2010)

First, let me say that I almost always buy in the US and try to support local merchants if the price difference isn't too much or if I have gone to them for advice regarding the particular item.

That said, I have dealt with Asian merchants in the past who have had good follow-up. I have dealt with US merchants who I won't be giving another dollar to. 

I don't see how anyone can excuse a retailer anywhere in the world who does not provide what he or she promises - regardless of the location of the seller. That seems pretty basic.


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## murbike (Jan 22, 2004)

Could have saved all that trouble and typing with a quick trip to your LBS - in other words, you get what you pay for.


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## tennbanshee (Feb 17, 2011)

Be careful with the broad brush that you are painting all LBS' with. Your words would imply that there is no risk or opportunity for things to go wrong with a LBS. This in not always the case. Fortunately, I have great shops in my area. However, I have multiple friends in different states who have encountered difficulties with their LBS'. I'm not taking a shot at LBS' because I agree and can validate the importance and benefit of having them in the community. They often provide access to service, products and the opportunity to build lasting relationships. 







murbike said:


> Could have saved all that trouble and typing with a quick trip to your LBS - in other words, you get what you pay for.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

rgordin said:


> First, let me say that I almost always buy in the US and try to support local merchants if the price difference isn't too much or if I have gone to them for advice regarding the particular item.


Do they support the local vendors?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Lectron said:


> In Norway. Everything we sell over counter or mail has 5yr warranty.
> Everything purchased over web/mail has 30days no questions asked return


Damn. Thats sounds like a solid setup. It just goes to show, however, that spending a bit more on wheels will not only get you better parts, but also alot better (and more consistent) customer service.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Damn. Thats sounds like a solid setup. It just goes to show, however, that spending a bit more on wheels will not only get you better parts, but also alot better (and more consistent) customer service.


One thing is bike stuff...Even cell phones and dvd/blueray players has to last for 5 yrs, meaning free lens-cleaning the first years.

People don't realize what they miss out buying from a random Asian vendor.
I know the rules are not as strict in the US, but at least it's regulated.

As a serious actor, I'm just glad they are there. I can say: sorry dude. Selling 
that product could ruin me......Buy it yourselves, and it could serious injure you


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

Geeezzz...........5 of the last 10 posts buy wheel vendors critiqueing.

*Mods* - maybe we need a "supplier" forum as a way for vendors to critique eachothers products with little regard for objectivity. 
.


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## MercuryMan76 (Apr 17, 2009)

tennbanshee said:



> It's important to note that the issue here is that Yishun gave direction and offered constant reassurance that they were going to take care of this. Yishun's common response is to tell customers to "not worry" they are going to make it right. The reality is that in the situations described in this thread (and others) is that Yishun has no intentions of addressing the concerns.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that Yishun Bike communicates one thing and then do not do what they claim they are going to do. That's the take away on this thread.


tennbanshee is right here. The intent of my post was to act as a public service announcement to those that may be thinking of purchasing a wheelset from Yishun. I know there has been a lot of people with a positive experience and that's great. I'm not saying that the product is terrible (I can't say that, since I couldn't even use it), but I am just airing out my experience with them in case anyone is on the fence about ordering from them. 

In the past I ordered another full carbon wheelset from a Taiwanese source and I've been happy with both the product and the service and communication I received from the seller. I'm purposefully not naming the seller so it doesn't appear that I'm a shill. I also recently ordered a set of Reynolds Assaults from a vendor in Colorado through their ebay store. I received a damaged item which I was able to promptly exchange for a new set without any major problems. I get the whole "you get what you pay for" approach and the inherent risks that are involved with ordering from overseas companies. But many of us here, including myself, have ordered from outfits such as wiggle or PBK and if there were major problems with those vendors most of us would likely want to hear about it so we know the risks involved.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

coachboyd said:


> Definitely don't have money to burn. . .but I do have lots of rims laying around (from a few different manufacturers).
> 
> Here is the cross section off a Yinshun rim. The gray thing along the spoke hole is actually a strip of metal to reinforce against spokes pulling through. I don't think that there's anything particularly wrong with that, but a strong carbon rim shouldn't need it. To compensate for the weight the side walls of the rims are a lot thinner than all of the other rims that I have seen. That is what leads to the side of the rim cracking near the valve hole (because of the extra hole drilled there), I have seen this happen a few times.


Wow.

That is one of the scariest-looking carbon rim sections I've ever seen...


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## MercuryMan76 (Apr 17, 2009)

metoou2 said:


> Wish someone with $$$ to burn would cut one of these Yishuns in half and post pics......................just sayin.


If the wheels ever do get returned to me I just may go ahead and do this. I cut open one of the ebay carbon forks on a thread I posted last year just to see what was inside it, so I'd be interested in taking apart one of these wheelsets as well.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

I don't see the problem. The pads are over the braking surface. They don't need to be centered over the braking surface to work. One set of wheels I own has a braking surface that is barely as high as the pad, so it sits right at the top of the surface, too.

What's the downside to having the pad toward the top of the brake surface?


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## MercuryMan76 (Apr 17, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> I don't see the problem. The pads are over the braking surface. They don't need to be centered over the braking surface to work. One set of wheels I own has a braking surface that is barely as high as the pad, so it sits right at the top of the surface, too.
> 
> What's the downside to having the pad toward the top of the brake surface?


The main thing for me is that the braking surface area on these wheels is raised slightly which means that if you have a portion of the brake pad in contact with the braking surface, and then another portion in contact with the non surfaced area there's going to be a slight area of the pad that's not in full contact with the wheel due to the transition from the non-surfaced area to the surfaced. Although this might be a very slight area of the brake pad , on a carbon rim I wouldn't want to sacrifice any loss in braking power due to an inability to properly setup up the contact point. Especially in wet weather conditions.


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## Jesserue (Sep 26, 2008)

Matador-IV said:


> Geeezzz...........5 of the last 10 posts buy wheel vendors critiqueing.
> 
> *Mods* - maybe we need a "supplier" forum as a way for vendors to critique eachothers products with little regard for objectivity.
> .


Make that 6, this has just turned into a vendor bashing thread, granted the OP has a point but it didn't have a thing to do with product quality just quality service.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Wow.
> 
> That is one of the scariest-looking carbon rim sections I've ever seen...


No kidding. That mess is just itching for a disaster.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> Wow.
> 
> That is one of the scariest-looking carbon rim sections I've ever seen...


+1 - when looking for designs to knock off, there must have been a google translate error that translated asymmetric carbon chainstays into asymmetric carbon rim!

funny that the problem is not getting brake pad low enough - look at where it would be contacting the left side of that rim. Yikes.


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## Jesserue (Sep 26, 2008)

Coach Boyd, any chance of a new picture that eliminates the shadow on the left side of the rim?


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## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

Jesserue said:


> Coach Boyd, any chance of a new picture that eliminates the shadow on the left side of the rim?


Not to mention a cleaner cut? It's hard to tell anything from that that photo due to the lighting and burrs.

Asad


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Holy crap...............I'm glad I asked for that cut up rim. Could you start a Thread for rims like this? I could care less about the crap "customer service" from Yishun and this is the "Yishun customer service Screwed me Thread". Yes your rim is a Yishun, but it would be great to see Yishun's and all the crap rims cut up on one Thread.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Looking at the original pictures - if it were me stuck with these crappy wheels, I would have simply trimmed off the top of the brake pad so that it didn't overlap onto the clearcoated section. It looks like it was very close to working.


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## MercuryMan76 (Apr 17, 2009)

coachboyd said:


> Definitely don't have money to burn. . .but I do have lots of rims laying around (from a few different manufacturers).
> 
> Here is the cross section off a Yinshun rim. The gray thing along the spoke hole is actually a strip of metal to reinforce against spokes pulling through. I don't think that there's anything particularly wrong with that, but a strong carbon rim shouldn't need it. To compensate for the weight the side walls of the rims are a lot thinner than all of the other rims that I have seen. That is what leads to the side of the rim cracking near the valve hole (because of the extra hole drilled there), I have seen this happen a few times.


Coachboyd - would you mind putting up a cross section of one of the rims you sell? I'd be interested in seeing the difference. Perhaps start a new thread for this as I'm sure a lot of others would like to see the "innards" of some of the carbon rims out there.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Steller idea!!!! Yes, a new thread for cut up crap carbon rims and yes I suppose cut up rims that are considered "good quality" would make for some good debate and comparison. CRAP, there I said one more time.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

I had a set of Velocity rims that worked out like this, the braking surface wasn't machined and the pads just kind of made their own.

You don't think the carbon-clicher-laminate problem might come up? This is not an area I am terribly familiar with.

I feel like buying from overseas, a product one has never seen, and trying to verify some particular details of it when there is clearly a language barrier is a problem.

I mean, look at this part from the wheel manufacturer's e-mail: "For the refund by credit card.we have nothing to do but wait... You could send an inquiry by your credit card company to see what they are going to do. Iam still confused for this deal..."

I am confused, too.

Of course, I am biased, but, I feel like this is why there are manufacturers, and then there are distributors. Cutting out steps saves up-front-costs, but there is less recourse for risk.

Anybody see the whole Alibaba scam implosion?




rx-79g said:


> I don't see the problem. The pads are over the braking surface. They don't need to be centered over the braking surface to work. One set of wheels I own has a braking surface that is barely as high as the pad, so it sits right at the top of the surface, too.
> 
> What's the downside to having the pad toward the top of the brake surface?


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

MercuryMan76 said:


> Coachboyd - would you mind putting up a cross section of one of the rims you sell? I'd be interested in seeing the difference. Perhaps start a new thread for this as I'm sure a lot of others would like to see the "innards" of some of the carbon rims out there.


I don't mind posting the pictures in here but I don't want to start threads comparing what I use to what is out there. Not sure if that crosses a line on here or not. I'll just post exactly what I see. The biggest thing that I notice is with the lowered braking track the bottom part of your brake pad will be clamping on some very thin carbon, below the crossbeam.

Yinshun rim









Yinshun rim









My rim









My rim


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Point taken, a moderator might not like a Boyd Racing Thread. You would become another 'Tony, Karen, Stephano, Yishun' huckster. 
My goodness................if a consumer sets his/ her pads a little too low on a Yishun, lookout. If the wall caved and the pad dove into the rim..............oh my!


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

From the new pictures without the questionable shadows, it looks like the yishun rim is consistent in thickness and quality to what you have. The only difference being that its braking on a thinner section. 

That first picture was quite visually deceptive.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Maybe we need a "China carbon wheels rumor and speculation thread?"

I have yet to see any proof of a wheel failure. 

The two current complaint threads have nothing to do with the wheels themselves. Its all about the customer service...or lack of.


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## Jesserue (Sep 26, 2008)

It also appears that the Yishun rim has a thicker amount of material across the braking section compared to the Boyds. I agree that setting your brakes on the lowest section of the Yishun rim brake surface area would not be a good idea. I do like the idea of having that extra material though to help dissipate some of the heat generated from braking. I'm running some Reynolds MV32C UL's that love to squeal when they warm up. The Reynolds blue pads help quiet them down as well as being gentle on the binders.

The metal rim on the spoke edge is also interesting. Yes it adds weight but I have to believe it adds strength as well.

I'm sure there is proprietary information based on scientific testing on most all of these rims. Would be interesting to read but probably not very likely to be released.

Thanks CoachBoyd for posting.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

OP,

Why not ship them back and just contact your credit card to stop the payment? If the product has a questionable history, and you're experiencing a problem that shows the wheels are not in-spec, you've got a good claim.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

coachboyd said:


> I don't mind posting the pictures in here but I don't want to start threads comparing what I use to what is out there. Not sure if that crosses a line on here or not. I'll just post exactly what I see. The biggest thing that I notice is with the lowered braking track the bottom part of your brake pad will be clamping on some very thin carbon, below the crossbeam.


Looks like the "those are crappy rims" people just got pwned. But I digress.

So Yishun isn't your source, then who is it? All the products on your site seems to be sourced from vendors available at Alibaba.com. From the site, it seems you also sponsor a team, how are these products under race conditions and heavy use?


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## MrRogers (Feb 23, 2011)

Sorry to see the OP's money tied up and still not having a resolution to the issue.

I'm really (really) not trying to be a jerk or gloat here but I picked up a pair of new reynolds carbon strikes this morning for just over $700 bucks. This price is a pretty good deal but with a little diligence the same price can be found elsewhere with a little effort. 

I suppose if these wheels were super cheap I'd see the appeal but given the issues some have uncovered, they work out to be a terrible value. 

There is a made-to-measure shirtmaker in China that makes great shirts for about 35$ (shipped to the US) a pop that so many people on the online clothing forums rave about and continue to give alot of business to. What many ignore is that it usually takes about 6 shirts for him to get your fit right and about 1/2 the fabrics he offers (which you obviously can't touch over the internet) are garbage and subsequently discarded. I think I have 8 of them and don't actually wear any of them. For the price I paid, a 300$ Brioni shirt is a far better value.

MrR


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## athletic91 (May 28, 2009)

seeing both cut up rims, i dont see why boyd rims are better than yishun rims in any way..

To be honest i expected yishun to be poor and rough inside, but it looks pretty smooth and clean on the inside , ironically from boyd pics.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

Many well regarded wheels comes with no extra profile on the sidewalls.
Some even fully coated.

FFWD, Campagnolo and Corima to mention a few......


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

The only differences I see from Boyd vs. Yishun are the higher brake track and the area around the spoke holes. 

Personally, if I were buying wheels directly from Asia, I'd steer towards the Gigantex (Taiwan) rims. If that is what Boyd is selling, I think that would be preferred.

Then again, I have ridden Gigantex rims but not Yishun or other Chinese rims.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

No, I am not using Gigantex rims although we do have our rims made in Taiwan. 

There's big differences between what you can see in a picture and how the rim builds. If the rim has flat spots and is not round it's going to be more difficult to build, making even spoke tension very difficult to achieve. I have never ordered any full wheels from Yinshun, just a few rims to see what they are like and how they build up. I would be interested to have somebody throw a tension meter on a set to see what the consistency of the tension is.

The pictures were not meant to bash the Yinshun rims at all. I don't think there'll be any catastrophic failures with their rims.


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## diver160651 (Sep 13, 2010)

Taiwan - Most of us own GREAT carbon products from Taiwan and most of the products are branded with US & European MFG's names.

US & European MFG's usually spec. their products, provide the design and some even monitor the builds. Even MFGs that do not design the products usually have a QC inspection point. Sure this adds a layer of cost, but it is often made up for in the public seeing more consistent products, better customer and warrantee service.

I do not believe that a Gigantex wheel, the exact same wheel sold by US MFG xxx, purchased thru a LOW level Taiwan broker, will not necessarily have the same user satisfaction rate. It certainly will not have the secondary QC, same service and warrantee workflow.

Antidotal and as a small sample: I have seen re-branded Gigantex rims with US names with smooth even break tracks.. Yet I have seen more than one pair of the same, with Asian decals that missed the QC station.. One pair with a warped braking surface so bad that braking felt like the steer tube might fail.

Light carbon CLINCHERs are prone to loads not seen in carbon tubulars. So when buying a carbon clincher, well any carbon wheel, there are the standard questions I bet we all ask ourselves like: How much do I weigh / how many miles do I ride / how hot does it get were I ride / do I ride the hills or live in Florida / are my roads always velvety smooth? How our personal matrix adds up, will determine just how much we can "get away with" so to speak, or how likely we might need warrantee help.

But when buying from a Taiwanese broker we need to ask a few more questions, am I always going to be questioning the quality, and am I willing to risk the waste of time, money and lack of any real warrantee service? BTW how much is the freight from a consumer to Taiwan for a warrantee wheel set? And how long does it take to ship both ways?

Just my thoughts --


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

mrbubbles said:


> Looks like the "those are crappy rims" people just got pwned. But I digress.


not really - the "lowered brake track," which is just unfinished carbon, is a bit of extremely poor engineering/design. It's 1) a cheap workaround to a significant problem (delamination due to heating) and 2) moving the heat + other forces to an extremely thin section of the rim. I'm guessing the buyers of these have never experienced problems with carbon rims before. Failure rates may be low, but doing long, hard descents on those things is asking for trouble.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

diver160651 said:


> But when buying from a Taiwanese broker we need to ask a few more questions, am I always going to be questioning the quality, and am I willing to risk the waste of time, money and lack of any real warrantee service? BTW how much is the freight from a consumer to Taiwan for a warrantee wheel set? And how long does it take to ship both ways?
> 
> Just my thoughts --


Freight for ~400 rims is about $250 to Norway (pickup from vendor, no broker involved) if close to main harbors
Domestic about the same.

Total, I can offer the same price in Norway to consumers that consumers get directly from Taiwan and China

And..That is with warranty and easier customer service.

China and Taiwan makes a lot of great stuff, even the stuff offered directly to customers. 
But. I believe U can get the same quality for close to the same price (total experience) from a local vendor like Boyd etc.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

MercuryMan76 said:


> tennbanshee is right here. The intent of my post was to act as a public service announcement to those that may be thinking of purchasing a wheelset from Yishun. I know there has been a lot of people with a positive experience and that's great. I'm not saying that the product is terrible (I can't say that, since I couldn't even use it), but I am just airing out my experience with them in case anyone is on the fence about ordering from them.
> 
> In the past I ordered another full carbon wheelset from a Taiwanese source and I've been happy with both the product and the service and communication I received from the seller. I'm purposefully not naming the seller so it doesn't appear that I'm a shill. I also recently ordered a set of Reynolds Assaults from a vendor in Colorado through their ebay store. I received a damaged item which I was able to promptly exchange for a new set without any major problems. I get the whole "you get what you pay for" approach and the inherent risks that are involved with ordering from overseas companies. But many of us here, including myself, have ordered from outfits such as wiggle or PBK and if there were major problems with those vendors most of us would likely want to hear about it so we know the risks involved.


[I do not buy from wiggle, though for other reasons]. 

However, you wrote you received good communication and service from a Taiwanese dealer, although I wonder if you ever had luck in sending goods back to Taiwan either for a refund or to honor warranty from the seller side. 

By the way: I doubt it would have been easier to send the wheels back here in the UK. I mean it was not a warranty issue. The distance selling regulation is a wee bit unclear and not sure if you could simply have send it back once used and worn on grounds of not liking it.

If the wheels are unused it would have been no problem to send it back within the 7 days cool-off period for a refund.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

DiegoMontoya said:


> The only differences I see from Boyd vs. Yishun are the higher brake track and the area around the spoke holes.
> 
> Personally, if I were buying wheels directly from Asia, I'd steer towards the Gigantex (Taiwan) rims. If that is what Boyd is selling, I think that would be preferred.
> 
> Then again, I have ridden Gigantex rims but not Yishun or other Chinese rims.


Gigantex makes awesome quality these days, and it is a VERY professional vendor in all aspects.
They are no more expensive than others out there, but they like to ensure the customers total experience with their product, and can't be purchased everywhere.

As for the Yishun rims..I believe they are quite OK...I do not know too much about them, but I like the reinforced spoke bedding
As for the brake lanes...I wouldn't say that is a big problem, thou I'd prefer something with more friction.

Compared to many others in that weight (like the Hong Fu ~350g rim), they don't need washers to distribute the load

One might say that ENVE is a better qualety rim, but at what cost. As mentioned by someone. It's not like they have a breakthrough technology, just expensive production


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