# Eurus 2 way fit v Shamal Ultra 2 way fit



## Bizman

Hey everyone,
Just trying to decide on the wheels for my new Lynskey r340 with Chorus 11 build? 

Has anyone used the Eurus 2 way fit and/or the Shamal Ultra 2 way fit and what did you like or didn't you like about them and why? Does one give a better ride? The Shamals are about 60 g's lighter with ceramic bearings and record hubs (I believe record hubs). 

I would like to use them tubeless. Any thoughts on going tubeless with either of these wheels? I was thinking the Cont Grand Prix 4 seasons tires probably in a size 25 as I hear they are less prone to flats and give a better ride than size 23.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## orange_julius

Bizman said:


> Hey everyone,
> Just trying to decide on the wheels for my new Lynskey r340 with Chorus 11 build?
> 
> Has anyone used the Eurus 2 way fit and/or the Shamal Ultra 2 way fit and what did you like or didn't you like about them and why? Does one give a better ride? The Shamals are about 60 g's lighter with ceramic bearings and record hubs (I believe record hubs).
> 
> I would like to use them tubeless. Any thoughts on going tubeless with either of these wheels? I was thinking the Cont Grand Prix 4 seasons tires probably in a size 25 as I hear they are less prone to flats and give a better ride than size 23.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I like my Shamal tubeless (Fusion 3). Without tubeless both wheels are harsh, with tubeless running 80psi they are as comfortable as my non-tubeless Neutron, but much more reactive. 

Nothing to dislike about my Shamal. Read through the specs to discover the difference between Eurus and Shamal, the most significant ones are more machining of rims to make them lighter, possibly different spokes, ceramic hubs. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=238940


----------



## kbwh

The Shamals use Super Record level "CULT" hubs and the Eurus use Record level hubs.

I didn't know that the GP4seasons was available as a tubeless tire.


----------



## Bizman

Orange_Julius, Thanks for the info on the Eurus & Shamal. I did check that out, but just wondered if anyone had a comparison of the two? The Shamals seems to make riders happy that have them.

kbwh, Do you have to use tubless specific tires on either of these wheels? I thought it didn't matter? Hence the reason why I was going to go with the Cont Grand Prix 4 season tires as they seem to hold up good from getting flats. I use non tubless on my mountain bike, although they are on Stans flow rims with sealant.


----------



## Mr. Scary

Bizman said:


> Orange_Julius, Thanks for the info on the Eurus & Shamal. I did check that out, but just wondered if anyone had a comparison of the two? The Shamals seems to make riders happy that have them.
> 
> kbwh, Do you have to use tubless specific tires on either of these wheels? I thought it didn't matter? Hence the reason why I was going to go with the Cont Grand Prix 4 season tires as they seem to hold up good from getting flats. I use non tubless on my mountain bike, although they are on Stans flow rims with sealant.


You inflate a mountain tire to 30psi, you need to use a tubeless specific road tire since they are manufactured with a carbon bead to withstand 100+ psi of pressure. The bead hook is also different and the tire bead is thicker to grab into the hook. If you look at Stans site for the Alpha 340 rim he also only converts true tubeless road tires to a tubeless setup.


----------



## Bizman

Thanks Mr. Scary for the explanation! I did not think about the high pressure in a road tire and not staying on the rim? I did research the Fusion 3 a little. It only comes in a 23 though and I was wanting a 25. 

I just like the tubless on the mountain bike so much that I want tubeless on my road bike, I just may have to try the 23 and see how it works? It looks like they use sealant in the Fusion 3 as well. The mountain bike tires with sealant are very reliable, and I would hope the road bike tubeless would be as well.


----------



## kbwh

Bizman said:


> kbwh, Do you have to use tubless specific tires on either of these wheels?


No. I'm with Michelin in this matter: Clincher tires and tubes for the road. Or _tubolari_.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

Eurus are great wheels. I have them on my C-50

I rode my Eurus with Vittoria Open Corsas and Latex tubes, they felt harsh indeed.

I ordered a set of Hutchinsons Fusion 3, they ride very well and the harshness is gone.

I have read a lot about how difficult it is to mount the tubeless tyres, that they lose air quickly and that they need sealant etc.

Nothing was true, I could mount them easily, using a plastic lever but could have been done by hand sure. Inflated them with a good pump ( I have the Renncompressor ) they set on the beads right from the beginning. They hold air for many days ( not hours like some here say ) and I haven't put any sealant on them. 

I ride with a latex tube on my pocket and 2 levers just in case. Also I bough the tubeless tyre patch kit for if someday I puncture.

I can only recomend the tubeless, the experience has been great so far.


----------



## fa63

Bizman said:


> Thanks Mr. Scary for the explanation! I did not think about the high pressure in a road tire and not staying on the rim? I did research the Fusion 3 a little. It only comes in a 23 though and I was wanting a 25.


Look at the Hutchinson Intensive, it is a 25mm tubeless road tire. With that said, you get a great ride (and puncture resistance) from tubeless tires in my experience (been using them for over a year now) due to the ability to run lower pressures without affecting performance, so there is really no need to go bigger if you are looking to go bigger for comfort's sake.


----------



## orange_julius

Salsa_Lover said:


> Eurus are great wheels. I have them on my C-50
> 
> I rode my Eurus with Vittoria Open Corsas and Latex tubes, they felt harsh indeed.
> 
> I ordered a set of Hutchinsons Fusion 3, they ride very well and the harshness is gone.


That's a great direct comparison. Isn't the Vittoria Open Corsa / latex tube combo considered the most comfortable among clinchers? I have compared Fusion 3 tubeless versus Michelin Pro 3 / butyl tube on the Shamal, and the tubeless is very comfortable in comparison.

The Fusion 3 w/ Shamal is a great setup in my opinion: very reactive, fast wheelset with comfort against chip seal roads. Plus I think the Fusion 3 holds up much better than tubed Michelin Pro 3.


----------



## orange_julius

kbwh said:


> No. I'm with Michelin in this matter: Clincher tires and tubes for the road. Or _tubolari_.


Come on kbwh, even Salsa_Lover is a believer in tubeless ;-).

If you join, we can form the Bianchi-Colnago-Cyfac-Campagnolo-tubeless cabal.


----------



## kbwh

The Tubeless Tire Gordic Knot Team sounds like a good name for us. Can tubeless tires be combined with compact cranks, btw?

Last time I checked, the rolling resistance of a "good tubeless" was about twice as large as that of a P3R with latex inner tube. I might need to revisit, but that's for another thread that you may start or point to to convince me.


----------



## pcs2

orange_julius said:


> ............ Read through the specs to discover the difference between Eurus and Shamal, the most significant ones are more machining of rims to make them lighter, possibly different spokes, ceramic hubs.


Also the shamals have carbon hub bodies which I don't think the Eurus has.

I have a set of Shamals using the fusion 3 tires (without sealant) and they have been great. I am around 205lbs and run them around 95/100 f/r. 

I don't think I would have noticed the difference between the Eurus/Shamal, but I went for the bling 

Of course since I de-badged the wheels a few weeks later I doubt anyone would noticed unless they looked close.


----------



## orange_julius

kbwh said:


> The Tubeless Tire Gordic Knot Team sounds like a good name for us. Can tubeless tires be combined with compact cranks, btw?
> 
> Last time I checked, the rolling resistance of a "good tubeless" was about twice as large as that of a P3R with latex inner tube. I might need to revisit, but that's for another thread that you may start or point to to convince me.


Tubeless with compact? Doesn't this depend on how good your mechanic is?

If you believe in Lennard Zinn, he suggests that there is rolling resistance savings when using tubeless, as there is no friction between tire and tube.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2007...qa-with-lennard-zinn-rolling-resistance_12493

Plus, according to BTR the difference is mere watts.

http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf

The best is Vittoria Pista Evo CS Tubular, 10.8 Watts per wheel/tire and a _USED_ Fusion 2 tubeless is 16.3 Watts per wheel/tire. So over a bike the difference is < 12 Watts. I don't TT, so I'd rather gain the positive combination of wheel reactivity and ride comfort. 

What tire/tube combo are you sporting today?


----------



## Bizman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizman 
kbwh, Do you have to use tubless specific tires on either of these wheels? 

No. I'm with Michelin in this matter: Clincher tires and tubes for the road. Or tubolari

I guess what I meant to say here was can you run a "non tubeless tire tubeless" on eiether of these 2 way fit wheels? I am thinking the answer is NO as Mr Scary says in post #5 due to the high pressures in the road tires?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizman 
Thanks Mr. Scary for the explanation! I did not think about the high pressure in a road tire and not staying on the rim? I did research the Fusion 3 a little. It only comes in a 23 though and I was wanting a 25. 

Look at the Hutchinson Intensive, it is a 25mm tubeless road tire. With that said, you get a great ride (and puncture resistance) from tubeless tires in my experience (been using them for over a year now) due to the ability to run lower pressures without affecting performance, so there is really no need to go bigger if you are looking to go bigger for comfort's sake.

I have only saw the Hutchison Fusion 3 listed in a 23 size only. From what you are saying they must have another Fusion 3 out there in a 25 called the Fusion 3 Intensive? If this is the case I will have to check it out as I think the 25 would be more durable than the 23. I really want to go tubeless and it sounds like the Fusion 3 is the way to go! I just have to get the size thing sorted out?


----------



## kbwh

orange_julius said:


> Tubeless with compact? Doesn't this depend on how good your mechanic is?
> 
> If you believe in Lennard Zinn, he suggests that there is rolling resistance savings when using tubeless, as there is no friction between tire and tube.
> 
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2007...qa-with-lennard-zinn-rolling-resistance_12493
> 
> Plus, according to BTR the difference is mere watts.
> 
> http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf
> 
> The best is Vittoria Pista Evo CS Tubular, 10.8 Watts per wheel/tire and a _USED_ Fusion 2 tubeless is 16.3 Watts per wheel/tire. So over a bike the difference is < 12 Watts. I don't TT, so I'd rather gain the positive combination of wheel reactivity and ride comfort.
> 
> What tire/tube combo are you sporting today?


Thanks for the links.
For the races I've been using 23mm Michelin P3R and before that Michelin PR2, both with Michelin latex tubes. Lately I have also used 21mm Vittoria Corsa CX (320tpi) tubulars on some light carbon rims. According to the BTR pdf I should ditch the Michelins and get open Vittoria Corsa CX instead for a real world fast tire.
Just to be clear: I do not own any wheels that would accept tubeless tires, but as my rear training wheel seems to be shot anyway I might downgrade my 8 year old Eurus...

How do those Hutchinsons turn?


----------



## orange_julius

Bizman said:


> Look at the Hutchinson Intensive, it is a 25mm tubeless road tire. With that said, you get a great ride (and puncture resistance) from tubeless tires in my experience (been using them for over a year now) due to the ability to run lower pressures without affecting performance, so there is really no need to go bigger if you are looking to go bigger for comfort's sake.
> 
> I have only saw the Hutchison Fusion 3 listed in a 23 size only. From what you are saying they must have another Fusion 3 out there in a 25 called the Fusion 3 Intensive? If this is the case I will have to check it out as I think the 25 would be more durable than the 23. I really want to go tubeless and it sounds like the Fusion 3 is the way to go! I just have to get the size thing sorted out?


Rather than continue to confuse yourself, why don't you just look on the Hutchinson catalog? There are only few Tubeless tires there. 

Model names for road use:
* Atom, 700x23
* Fusion 3, 700x23
* Intensive, 700x25

http://www.hutchinsontires.com/en/catalogue-route.php?fiche=intensive-rtl.php&univers=4&pid=8


----------



## Bizman

Very cool Orange_Julius, It looks like the Intensive is what I am looking for, thanks! I believe I will go with the Shamal over the Eurus due to the lower weight which will also help offset the tubeless tires that are a little heavier.


----------



## orange_julius

kbwh said:


> Thanks for the links.
> For the races I've been using 23mm Michelin P3R and before that Michelin PR2, both with Michelin latex tubes. Lately I have also used 21mm Vittoria Corsa CX (320tpi) tubulars on some light carbon rims. According to the BTR pdf I should ditch the Michelins and get open Vittoria Corsa CX instead for a real world fast tire.
> Just to be clear: I do not own any wheels that would accept tubeless tires, but as my rear training wheel seems to be shot anyway I might downgrade my 8 year old Eurus...
> 
> How do those Hutchinsons turn?


I was on Continental GP4000 and GP4000S for a long time, and after some time switched to Michelin PR3, all on butyl. The Conti GP4season was my go-to wet ride tires. The PR3 is nicer (smoother ride) than the GP4000S, but the puncture resistance sux. And the wear rate is much higher than the GP4000S. 

When I first started using the Fusion 3 tubeless I was really skeptical at its puncture resistance, and its turning performance. But so far it's been very good, I've run into a puddle of glass twice and I've had no flats. The wear performance is similar to the GP4000S. And the turn performance I think is a little better than the GP4000S, almost to the level of GP4season. I haven't ridden them much in the rain, but on gravel roads they are much better than the PR3. 

Tubeless does require some learning, but if you are mechanically-inclined, it shouldn't be a problem. I put sealant in my tires but so far I don't think I've ever needed them. It even has a little bit of that nice "hollow" sound that tubular has. When I first rode them at 75 psi (yes, seriously! I weigh 165 lbs), it felt a bit strange at first but they are really awesome when you ride over bumps at high speeds. 

Why downgrade your 8-year old Eurus when you can upgrade to Shamal? The three of us can then really be a gang.


----------



## kbwh

By making the old Euruses (Euri?) my training wheels (and put those lovely 32 hole Record hubs from '96 on the shelf) I should get room for a pair of Shamal 2WFs. Food for thought.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

kbwh said:


> The Tubeless Tire Gordic Knot Team sounds like a good name for us. Can tubeless tires be combined with compact cranks, btw?
> 
> Last time I checked, the rolling resistance of a "good tubeless" was about twice as large as that of a P3R with latex inner tube. I might need to revisit, but that's for another thread that you may start or point to to convince me.


something like this ? 










The pic is before swaping those for a pair of manlier rings....  pics to follow soon when I setup the 3T rotundos on it, they are scheduled for delivery any day now... waiting


----------



## orange_julius

kbwh said:


> By making the old Euruses (Euri?) my training wheels (and put those lovely 32 hole Record hubs from '96 on the shelf) I should get room for a pair of Shamal 2WFs. Food for thought.


Those shiny polished Record hubs truly are lovely. Campag made a terrible mistake on that one. Great, let me know when you are qualified to join the Gang.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

yes 52/39 Specialites Nerius 11

I bought the C-50 already built and it had that compact crank on it, and well a pair of rings is cheaper than to swap the full crank.

I'll keep the 50/34 for my elder years....


----------



## orange_julius

Salsa_Lover said:


> something like this ?
> 
> The pic is before swaping those for a pair of manlier rings....  pics to follow soon when I setup the 3T rotundos on it, they are scheduled for delivery any day now... waiting


Is that a 52T chainring?


----------



## kbwh

Seems like Campagnolo are revamping the Shamals and Euruses for 2012. The G3 pattern becomes wider, but is still parallel. The Dark label looks fine and should not clash with Celeste:


----------



## orange_julius

Salsa_Lover said:


> yes 52/39 Specialites Nerius 11
> 
> I bought the C-50 already built and it had that compact crank on it, and well a pair of rings is cheaper than to swap the full crank.
> 
> I'll keep the 50/34 for my elder years....


At the risk of further derailing this thread, how do you like them? Do you find them to be flexy, compared to larger BCD rings?


----------



## orange_julius

kbwh said:


> Seems like Campagnolo are revamping the Shamals and Euruses for 2012. The G3 pattern becomes wider, but is still parallel. The Dark label looks fine and should not clash with Celeste:


That's a nice color, I prefer it to my red/black boring color scheme.
I still lust after the bling gold color they had for a while. Too bad it was pre-tubeless compatible. Oh well.


----------



## tenacean

I have Campy Shamal Ultra 2-way fit rims...Hutchinson Fusion 3 tires...I can not for the life of me get the tire on the rim...it is waaaaaaay too tight. I've tried everything and I'm not weak. If I try levers...as I get close...one side will pop in while the other side pops out...and it doesn't matter how hard I hold it. 

I took it to an LBS who broke two levers and eventually stated that the Fusion 3 was incompatible with the rim.

Now, I know they're compatible given what I've read here and elsewhere...BUT...is there some sort of manufacturing inconsistency with these tires?? Are some are slightly larger than others...there's just no way this tire is going on my Ultra rim.


----------



## orange_julius

tenacean said:


> I have Campy Shamal Ultra 2-way fit rims...Hutchinson Fusion 3 tires...I can not for the life of me get the tire on the rim...it is waaaaaaay too tight. I've tried everything and I'm not weak. If I try levers...as I get close...one side will pop in while the other side pops out...and it doesn't matter how hard I hold it.
> 
> I took it to an LBS who broke two levers and eventually stated that the Fusion 3 was incompatible with the rim.
> 
> Now, I know they're compatible given what I've read here and elsewhere...BUT...is there some sort of manufacturing inconsistency with these tires?? Are some are slightly larger than others...there's just no way this tire is going on my Ultra rim.


Did you try the advice of using the extra depth of the rim well on the opposite side to get some extra space? It's mentioned in the manual. I can assure you that the tire and rim are compatible with each other. I even met a rider last weekend who had the exact same setup as I do.


----------



## tommyturbo

There is a definite learning curve with tubeless. I use the S-Works Turbo Tubeless tires (made by Hutchinson) with my Eurus 2-Way wheels. I had a hell of a time the first go around; now I can mount the tires without tools using just the palm of my hands. I still need a single lever to remove the tire.

You really have to work both beads in toward the center of the rim to mount the tires.


----------



## kbwh

Some resurrection!

I finally got around to buy a set of Shamal 2wf this year. Ran the Schwalbe One Tubeless 23 mm on them and now Hutchinson Fusion 3 RT 23 mm. Am about to change the front to Hutchinson Atom Galactic, as I have good experience running a lighter front tire on tubular setups.


----------



## Notvintage

kbwh said:


> No. I'm with Michelin in this matter: Clincher tires and tubes for the road. Or _tubolari_.


I totally agree 100%.


----------



## kbwh

Haha. I've changed my mind.

After a season on tubeless the only "drawback" I see is this: 
Due to my tendency to run lower pressures with tubeless than I would with similarly sized clincher tires I have a greater chance of destroying a rim in what would normally result in a pinch flat.
So fatter tubeless tires for rough rides then: I'll get myself a pair of Hutchinson Sector 28s.


----------

