# Is the frame too big?



## seeker333 (Mar 15, 2002)

I have a lot of bike riding experience, have built several bikes up by myself from parts including the wheels, and generally have a lot of knowledge and confidence on most bike-related subjects. But I have a thought knocking around in my head, so I thought I'd survey you guys for an opinion.

I have a Surly LHT with 26" wheels. I think I'd like one with 700c wheels now, which means I need to fit on a 56cm, sizing up from my current 52cm. The 52 fits pretty good, with a 54cm ETT and plenty of standover.

I also have an old 55x55cm road bike with horizontal TT, and it doesn't get ridden much with DT shifters, 20mm tires, plus a 20 year old Al-CF frame that I'm afraid will un-joint if the wind blows too hard, or if I hit a pot hole. Still, it's useful for sizing. The biggest problem with this bike fit-wise is a (now) uncomfortably long reach, and low bar/lever position. My LHT posture is fairly upright in contrast, bars are higher and wider, reach is shorter, all intentional choices in order to make it comfortable.

After hours measuring and ciphering, I've concluded I can fit a 56cm LHT frame, if I'm satisfied with more limited standover clearance, and either a short stem and/or short reach bar.

I have a PBH of ~85cm, the 56cm LHT has a SO of 81cm mid-TT (with 700x37 tires), and closer to 83mm near HT. I'll have about an inch of clearance under the 56cm LHT tires, using the old "lift bike into your crotch firmly and see how much of a gap is left under the tires" test. I've even put blocks under my 55x55 road bike's wheels to raise it to a 83cm standover height, and I can still clear this a little bit. This process would be easier if I had a Surly dealer with a real 56cm LHT within 2hrs drive, but I don't. I'm not real worried about the SO aspect of this fit.

Reach-wise, I think ideally I need a 54cm ETT.. The 56cm LHT has a 57cm ETT. I need to lose 3cm to fit the 56cm LHT, preferably doing this using existing components as much as possible. I can take 1cm off my bar and 2cm or maybe 3cm off my stem, and keep the same bar cause I kinda like it. And so now I finally get to my point; *does a 56cm touring bike steer / handle badly if you use a short stem, specifically 70 or 80mm long?*

I've considered that a more sloping top tube frame like a 54cm Salsa Vaya would be a better solution, but this costs me 200 bucks more than a LHT frameset , and they're sold out and unavailable until next year. 

Thanks in advance for any thoughtful answers.


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## Scott B (Dec 1, 2004)

I'm thinking it's going to be too big. I'd spring for the Vaya if the sizing makes more sense. Fit is everything on a bike you want to be able to ride for 8+ hours day in, day out.

To the stem question: I use a 100mm stem on my touring rig and it handles fine. I used to have a 90mm and the handling was changed. A 70mm on any bike, in my experience, is getting a bit short.

One other thing to consider on the LHT is your saddle position, both it's heights and it's fore/aft position with your post real low.

There are other bike options out there that I'd look at instead of trying to make the Surly work.



seeker333 said:


> I have a lot of bike riding experience, have built several bikes up by myself from parts including the wheels, and generally have a lot of knowledge and confidence on most bike-related subjects. But I have a thought knocking around in my head, so I thought I'd survey you guys for an opinion.
> 
> I have a Surly LHT with 26" wheels. I think I'd like one with 700c wheels now, which means I need to fit on a 56cm, sizing up from my current 52cm. The 52 fits pretty good, with a 54cm ETT and plenty of standover.
> 
> ...


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## MaxCycles (Nov 24, 2009)

In my experience, ETT length is the most important factor when sizing a bike. I have long legs for my height which means I can stand over a much larger frame than I can comfortably ride with an appropriate length stem. You really don't want to run a stem any shorter than 90mm on a road/touring bike. I've ran an 80mm stem on a Lemond that had too much reach for me and it was a bit twitchy at speed. Maybe check out a cross check?


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

I am 5'9" tall and have a PBH similar to yours. Don't know if it was 84 or 85 when I measured it when I got my LHT a few years ago.

I got the 56cm as I did not want the 26" wheels.

I wanted the bike to be as comfortable as possible, so I used a lot of spacers to get the bars way up there which also brings the bars back. I believe for every 3cm of spacer you use the bars will come back to you 1cm on a 72deg hta, and am using an 80mm stem. 

The handling on the bike is fine.

Here is a pic of it.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

I have a friend that runs 70 to 80mm stems on all his bikes because of his size. 

He has no problems with his bikes.


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## LC (Jan 28, 2004)

Why stuck on Surly? You can get better steel tubes with a Soma DoubleCross and spend the same or less.


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

So seeker333:

There are several common ways to shorten the cockpit:
-Seatpost with less setback (A good way on frames with slacker seat-tube angles)
-Shorter stem (Reaches as short as 60 cm are acceptable with most frame sizes)
-Shorter reach handlebars 
-Drop bars with a bit of rearward sweep (Nitto has a couple) 
Or combinations thereof

A higher handlebar position is possible by:
-Starting with a new fork with uncut steerer tubes and using lots of spacers under the stem to size it (Cut it off and install a new star-nut when you decide what's best)
-Using a riser stem - there are lots of drop bar high rise stems (with short reach) including FSA's Metropolis or Voodoo's Nakisi (Works well when a very short reach high rise result is needed), which, with shims if necessary, will work with any drop bar 
-Using a frame with a tall headtube
-Nitto makes a couple handlebars with flats that have a bit of rise from the stem clamp
-Installing a headset with a tall stack height (Even a spacer under the top fixed cup is acceptable)
Or combinations thereof

Based on years of experience solving the fit problem you describe on dozens of builds, I can safely say the 56 cm frame will work just fine.


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

So seeker333:

There are three ways to shorten the cockpit:
-Seatpost with less setback (A good way on frames with slacker seat-tube angles)
-Shorter stem (Reaches as short as 60 cm are acceptable with most frame sizes)
-Handlebars with short reach
Or combinations thereof

A higher handlebar position is possible by:
-Starting with a new fork with uncut steerer tubes and using lots of spacers under the stem to size it
-Using a riser stem - there are lots of drop bar high rise stems, including FSA's Metropolis or Voodoo's Nakisi, which, with spacers if necessary, will work with any drop bar 
-Using a frame with a tall headtube
-Nitto makes a couple handlebars with flats that have a bit of rise.
Or combinations thereof

Based on years of experience solving the fit problem you describe with dozens of builds, I can safely say the 56 cm frame will work just fine.


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## seeker333 (Mar 15, 2002)

LC said:


> Why stuck on Surly? You can get better steel tubes with a Soma DoubleCross and spend the same or less.


1. I want long CS for heel clearance. LHT CS=460 SDC CS=420mm. IDK why bicyclists seem to think cyclocross frame = touring frame, because they are not the same. BB height, CS length, TT/DT tubing diameter/wall thickness, HT length, fork bosses and trail, overall frame rigidity and feel are different, especially when loaded.

2. Check your prices, LHT is ~$50-130 cheaper, since it's $470 for frameset (and less if you know where to look).. SDC frame is $400-450, disc fork is $120-150.

The Soma Saga in 54cm/700c is a better fit for me than the 56cm LHT, and so is the 56cm Saga. The Saga and LHT are about the same price. However, I failed to mention earlier, I'm really looking at a Disc Trucker for the brakes. I left it out to avoid confusing the issue (fit) further. The geometry of the LHT and DT are identical.


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## seeker333 (Mar 15, 2002)

brianmcg said:


> I am 5'9" tall and have a PBH similar to yours. Don't know if it was 84 or 85 when I measured it when I got my LHT a few years ago. I got the 56cm as I did not want the 26" wheels...am using an 80mm stem. The handling on the bike is fine.


Yep, we're about the same size. I'm 5'9" with 85cm PBH in bare feet. I used to be 5'10". 



bigrider said:


> I have a friend that runs 70 to 80mm stems on all his bikes because of his size. He has no problems with his bikes.


I kinda figured a shorter stem wouldn't be too bad - after all, Surly sells their smaller Complete LHTs with 75mm stems.



refund!? said:


> So seeker333:
> 
> There are several common ways to shorten the cockpit:
> -Seatpost with less setback (A good way on frames with slacker seat-tube angles)
> ...


I have an old Schwinn bike that's 54Sx57T. I cleaned it up, lubed the seized brake cables, put some air in the 20+ year old tires and took her for a spin. I was surprised the 57cm horizontal top tube did not "feel" longer reach-wise. I took some measurements, and was surprised to find the distance from saddle top, where center of seat tube intersects when extrapolated, measured diagonally to the brake lever hood tips, was the same (or a bit shorter) distance as my 52cm LHT with a 54cm ETT. 

There are a few reasons for this. First, the Schwinn has a 65mm stem, vs 100mm on the LHT. Second, the bar widths c-t-c are 37cm vs 44cm. The extra 7cm of bar width results in about 1cm more reach requirement on the LHT. Third, the Schwinn's Dia-Compe Aero levers are 2cm shorter reach-wise than the Campy Ergo bhifters on the LHT. Finally, the handlebar reach on the Schwinn is 100mm, vs 75mm on the LHT.

So, yes, a lot things can be done to tweak fit. I knew all this at post #1, except I had not considered that wider bars make the reach feel longer, and was unaware of the effect of the brake lever / brifter body itself on overall reach.

Thanks for all the replies.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

refund!? said:


> So seeker333:
> 
> There are three ways to shorten the cockpit:
> -Seatpost with less setback (A good way on frames with slacker seat-tube angles)
> ...


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## gruppo (Jan 28, 2005)

bigrider said:


> Changing your saddle position to solve a reach problem is not a solution. Based on you fitting a bunch of bikes said:
> 
> 
> > It's important to not zealously subscribe to the dogma attached to bike fitting and pedal positioning. Recently the owner of an Indiana bike shop stated it quite eloquently, "...bike fitting is one of the most over-sold 'services' to come about...". The goal is to fit the average cyclist with fairly standard body measurements, which is most of us, to an off-the-rack frame that hopefully comes close to being his/her size (Difficult in these times of minimal frame sizes on which the steerer tube is already cut, the stem & seatpost are installed and the crankarm length is established). Pedal position is influenced by many factors, and in my experience is but one of several factors which have ranges, not settings, that accommodate and harmonize with each other to achieve a good fit. And it is as much art as it is science.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Personally I would get the Soma Saga, even if it costs a little more. Top tube length is one of the most critical dimensions for bike fit, and Surly's fit long. The Saga is a much better fit for you. This is a no-brainer. Disc brakes are unnecessary unless you plan to ride in the rain a lot. Even so, canti brakes will work fine in the rain with KoolStop salmon pads. Seriously, I wouldn't even get this a second thought. Get the bike that fits.


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