# Should I replace my OEM crank-set?



## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

I own a 2007 Specialized Sirrus Sport hybrid, which came equipped with a Sugino XD type 175mm arms and steel 48-38-28 chain rings. Last year I replace the small 28 tooth ring with a 26 tooth ring and replaced the OEM BB a new Shimano 68 x 113 UN-26 BB. Also the middle 38 toothed chain ring is slightly worn and will cost about $40.00 for a ramped replacement ring. Should I replace the middle ring or look for another triple crank-set with 50-39-30 teeth? Will a new beefier triple road crank-set with 50-39-30 chain rings improve the pedal efficiency in anyway? 
I’m not sure how to quantify this next statement but my Sirrus seems a little hard to pedal—meaning I have a hard time keeping up with road bike pack on the flats and riding up hills. Note my fitness level is better than newer riders in my group who just started riding. Could worn chain-rings cause drag in the drive-train or does the Sugino crank arms and or 5-bolt spider have a lot of flex. Could the square tapered holes be worn-out?


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Sugino makes a well-reputed crank, and hybrids tend to put riders at a disadvantage compared to drop-bar road bikes.

At speeds over about 15mph, the biggest source of resistance is air drag. You don't have to ride in a tuck or a time trial position to push less air on a drop-bar bike - the narrower handlebars already help, and if your riding position is too upright for your current fitness level, going to a racier riding position will improve your efficiency and your comfort. You also don't need a TT or a fancy bike with aero tubes to get a huge benefit - most air resistance is from the funny-looking biped on top of the bike, not the piece of equipment itself. The main point of an aero bike is to show less of the rider to the wind.

Another major source of drag is ginormous tires. I don't care to get into the argument about 23s vs. 25s. I'm inclined to agree with the people who say that's splitting hairs anyway. But 23s vs. 35s or 40s (or 28s vs. giant tires) is a much easier subject. As a side benefit, dropping some weight there will help with hills, although, to be honest, not all that much.

Yes, a beefier triple crank will improve the pedaling efficiency. But it's likely to be an improvement at least an order of magnitude, maybe two, less than improving your riding position and getting nice tires. (This is assuming that you're using something along the lines of whatever came on the bike, of course.) Can you see your chain rings moving laterally in the front derailleur cage when you look down? If not, don't worry about it. If so, you're actually still not losing all that much energy. Much of it is recovered when the bottom bracket shell area rebounds. Losses are due to hysteresis of the material, and should be pretty minor for a metal bike.

If your crank is actually damaged, you should replace it. Can you move the crank arms laterally by hand? If so, and you feel a clunk, like from free play, they're toast. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with the holes that fit over the BB spindle.

I notice you have another thread about some physical problems. A screwed up riding position contributes a lot to that; maybe now's a good time for a major revision in equipment selection and setup.


----------



## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

No the OEM Sugino cranks do not creak or have any side-to-side play. A few months ago I purchased 700 x 25 Continental Gator-skin tires and a Mavic Aksium Race wheel-set to replace my OEM wheel-set and my worn out Specialized 700 x 28 all-condition tires. I notice that the bike was a little easier to pedal and my speedometer was clocking me at around 1 to 1 ½ MPH faster—maybe the wind was at my back or the tires gripped the road better. Anyway my 2007 Sirrus frame geometry is virtually the same as one of Specialized’s touring road bikes (e.g. the Sector) with the exception of the flat handlebars. Correct me if I’m wrong but unless a rider was down in the drops riding on a flat road level road my Sirrus should be as aerodynamic as a typical road bike. Also it seems like most of the roadies ride in a more upright position most of the time grabbing the flat part of their bars or the top of their brake-shifter mounts. And aerodynamics should have no bearing on climbing a steep hill at a relatively slow speed. Unfortunately I do not have a supped-up road bike to make a back-to-back comparison with my Sirrus but another possibility is that the Sirrus with its carbon fiber chain stays and zerk fittings is designed to be more compliant than a race bike with beefed up chain and seat stays. I looked into purchasing Road drop bars and Shimano 2303 shifters-brake levers and the setup would run close to $200.00 with very little net gain in terms of pedal efficiency when riding on the flats.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Arguing the aerodynamics of road bikes vs. hybrids is a little tricky because it's a free country and if you want to, you can buy a 140mm -17degree stem and put it at the bottom of your spacer stack, likely resulting in a flatter-backed riding position than I would choose on my road racing bike. It wouldn't even murder your back, if your power output is such that you should be in that position anyway, but you'd present a wider front area to the wind, so you push more air and pull a bigger bag. How much? I dunno, I don't have a wind tunnel. Well-fitted flat bar bikes are typically longer in the top tube than well-fitted drop bar bikes, so unless you have a very long torso and bought much too small a bike, your drop bar experiment would probably not have gone particularly well. Why don't you try dropping your stem a spacer or two or flipping it and see what you think? You can also try moving your grips and controls in a little bit. Or, bring it up with the fitter if you decide to try another fit.

How do you know you're in better shape than the newer riders in your group? Are you insisting on any other particularly non-normative equipment, like giant panniers or flat pedals without toe clips?


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

The only thing I have to say re: this convo is there's a reason why pro's ride drop bar bikes, and it's not _just_ about aerodynamics. It's about positioning the anatomy in such a way that it maximizes power output along with maintaining comfort over the long haul.

While hybrids have their place, don't expect miracles from them, and (IMO/E) I suggest resisting the urge to make yours into something it isn't, because doing so will further compromise its performance (and lighten your wallet).

As was mentioned, your other thread deals with some fairly complex fit issues. Until they're sorted out, your performance on your current bike will be less than optimal.


----------



## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

I found a new Sugino XD-600 crank-set at my LBS for $115.00. The XD-600 is equipped with 46-36-26 ramped-pinned aluminum chain-rings. I was surprised to find out that this new crank-set has a shorter chain-line than my OEM Sugino cranks that I replaced. Both the new XD-600’s and the OEM cranks have Sugino XD-2D arms/5-bolt spiders. Either the XD-600’s aluminum chain-rings are spaced closer to the seat tube than the OEM’s stamped steel rings were or Sugino changed the spider’s castings. My 5 year old FD-3300 Shimano Sora front derailleur is a top swing bottom pull so the minimum chain-line that this derailleur can handle is 47.5mm. Depending on what the new chain-line is, I may be able to use a 1mm spacer to move my 68 x 113 UN-54 BB out 1mm or I may need to purchase a bottom swing bottom pull road derailleur that will accommodate a 45mm chain-line. Has anybody run into this problem with XD-600 crank-sets?


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I don't think there will be an insurmountable problem getting the new crank onto your bike - as you say, if it sits too close to the seat tube, you can add a spacer. (Assuming a splined interface - for tapered, I think you need a longer spindle, but I'm not sure; in any case, there are a million sizes of tapered bottom bracket available.)

But I don't think this will accomplish anything.

I'm sure you had a good reason to go with a flat bar bike in 2007. Why not hop on a few drop bar bikes and see if the bwalton of 2011 is happier? Between the major bike companies doing different geometries and the smaller ones that always have, there are a ton of choices.


----------



## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

I did a 65 mile bike tour yesterday and feel reasonably comfortable on my Sirrus (i.e. no back, shoulder, arm, wrist, hand, leg, knee or sit bone discomfort or pain). In another post I been struggling with hot spot under my left foot’s big toe but for the most part I think solved 85% of the problem with the proper shoes, orthotics and pedals. The last 15% of my hot spot discomfort I hope will be resolved over time as my left foot adapts to new foot equipment. Having said that the second leg of the tour was very windy and having dropped handle bars would have helped to cut through the monsoon. The new style shifter/brake levers do not accommodate my typical riding position, which is mostly on the flat part of the bars. Ideally, I would prefer that the both the brake levers and shifters be mounted on the flat part of the handle bars with the addition of drop style brake levers mounted on the curved part of the drops. Has anyone seen a setup like this?


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bwalton said:


> I did a 65 mile bike tour yesterday and feel reasonably comfortable on my Sirrus (i.e. no back, shoulder, arm, wrist, hand, leg, knee or sit bone discomfort or pain). In another post I been struggling with hot spot under my left foot’s big toe but for the most part I think solved 85% of the problem with the proper shoes, orthotics and pedals. The last 15% of my hot spot discomfort I hope will be resolved over time as my left foot adapts to new foot equipment. Having said that the second leg of the tour was very windy and having dropped handle bars would have helped to cut through the monsoon. The new style shifter/brake levers do not accommodate my typical riding position, which is mostly on the flat part of the bars. Ideally, *I would prefer that the both the brake levers and shifters be mounted on the flat part of the handle bars with the addition of drop style brake levers mounted on the curved part of the drops. Has anyone seen a setup like this*?


If you were to opt for a drop bar bike, I'd suggest not bringing your current habits with you, because doing so negates the inherent advantage of a drop bar. That being, the ability to avail yourself of several different hand positions.

If you're happy with your current bike, by all means stay with it. But if you feel that it's holding you back (especially on longer rides), then it might be worth taking a couple of hours out to test ride drop bar bikes, just to get a feel for the differences.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

bwalton said:


> Ideally, I would prefer that the both the brake levers and shifters be mounted on the flat part of the handle bars with the addition of drop style brake levers mounted on the curved part of the drops. Has anyone seen a setup like this?


If you're going to continue to ride it as a hybrid, why spend the money on road bike bars and shifters? If you always ride at the top of the bar, you're cheating yourself the benefits of a drop bar; riding on the hoods, the top, the drops, the ends of the shifters, etc. ie: multiple hand positions.

But no....you can't mount your shifters to the top part of your bar unless you're using Thumbies or a WalMart bike (GMC Denali) handlebar, which is split and comes apart so GripShift shifters can be put on it. (It weighs as much as your bike).

If you're sure you won't use a drop bar like it's supposed to be used, just buy these and call it good.










https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Bicycle-Drop-Ends-Black/dp/B0013G6PB8


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

For the most part, I'm also in the "if you go drop bars, go all the way" camp. But, as someone who rides a bike with flat bars and bar ends a lot, I think the bar ends position is way too wide for the nice cruising position of a bike with drop bars, unless the handlebars are cut too short for a good position when riding the flats. So there are a couple things to try - Titec's funky mountain bike handlebars would give you a narrower, more forward position for when you're cooking along on the flats, and these trekking bars, not sure what they're called, would give you some extra choices.



















Both of these would accept your current controls. You'd probably want a different stem, though.


----------



## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

Wow its not easy to convert a hybrid with flat handle bars into a road bike with drops. I was thinking that I could purchase dropped bars, cork tape and maybee Tektro RL520 road type brake lever for V-brakes and install my flat bar shifters/brake levers on the top part of the drops. I encounter a hiccup when serching for a brake cable spliter use on the flat bar levers and the drop levers. I normally ride with my hands on the flat part of the handle bars where the flat bar shifter pods and brake levers are and when it is windy I will be bown on the drops where I want the extra redundent brake levers for extra measure of safety. This setup will cost about $100.00 

The second alternative is the buy Shimano ST-2303 road shifters/brake levers, cycle-croos flat bar brake levers and either cantiler brakes or direct pull brakes, drops and tape for about $200.00. Or add a booster cable cam on each of my current V-brakes sets, which will save the cost of new weaker rim brakes.

My third option would to buy a new raod bike or cycle-cross bike and put my Mavic wheelset on it. This last option will cost well over $1000.00.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

You haven't even mentioned the real problems yet.

Flat bar bikes that fit their riders are longer than those riders' drop bar bikes. If a flat bar bike runs a little bit small, then with a very small, frequently high-angled stem, it's sometimes possible to convert them. I researched the idea a little bit a while ago - I thought it would be a fun project to build a road bike on a MTB frame. I learned I'd need to buy a frame about two sizes smaller than my MTB size to get the top tube length and reach close enough.

There's an old style of fitting flat bars that I actually kind of like - you put your hands, palms inward, where you'd put them on drop bars, than rotate your arms out, into the flat bar/palms-down position. The "saddle" of your hand - that little piece of real estate between thumb and forefinger - stays in the same position for this operation. Most people probably end up moving their wrists outward on the order of 2" each - this is a ton of length compared to the gradations of size available in drop bars. Basically the flats position on a standard (and most non-standard) drop bar sucks - it's too narrow for almost everybody as a long-term position.

The last two road bikes I bought cost $900 (retail) and $95 (Craig's List) respectively. The $900 bike has taken a few tweaks, but I race it. It's a 'cross bike, since you mention that as being of interest. While I'd like to play with its layout a little more, which will certainly cost some money, I also realize that it's not going to change my lap times much. The $95 bike is not up to racing against contemporary bikes, but if it fit me and I had it set up with a different saddle and pedals, it would be more than adequate to train or tour on. Getting a purpose-built road bike that will fit you correctly when riding in the primary (on the hoods for most of us, but it's a free country) riding position doesn't need to cost $1000.

I came up with that lame thing about aerodynamics and drop bars because I was having trouble putting my finger on what it is that's different for me about riding one of my drop bar bikes. I do think it has a little to do with the narrower position, and I think there's also something about the palms-in riding position that makes it easier for me to be in the saddle for extended periods when I'm not doing pedal-ups and manuals. I do think it's important, though - I don't think there's much point in trying to get drop bars onto a hybrid if you're not going to ride in a more "road" position most of the time.

I've had crosstop brake levers. I think they suck. While there are a few pros who find them useful for approaching barriers, I found that they're exactly where I don't want my hands when I'm braking under any other circumstance, and they didn't effect my barrier approach much either. Descending, I'm in the drops. In traffic or cruising at normal paces, I'm on the hoods. I guess they're kind of cool if I'm riding really, really slowly and super-upright, but it's not that big a deal for me to move one hand to a brake hood under those circumstances.


----------

