# Dear Levi, Help Contador! (you can't win)...



## Tahoe Gator (May 28, 2002)

Sad to see Levi just hanging on while Popa does all the work. He should be helping Contador, who is clearly the stronger rider at this point in the tour


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## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

Tahoe Gator said:


> Sad to see Levi just hanging on while Popa does all the work. He should be helping Contador, who is clearly the stronger rider at this point in the tour


Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh, you're not kidding.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

Best stage I've seen in forever.


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## fracisco (Apr 25, 2002)

*This rocks*

Great stage. 

How about Soler? He's hanging in there, waggling all over the bike and all.

Contador looks like the real deal.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

quit whining about Levi.

I'm in heaven!!!!!!!!!!!! Rasmussen vs Contador.

fc


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

best stage? last 2 years may be but i still like Armstrong's stage 13th win when he crashed with someone's bag, almost ending his tour baack in 03. what a stage that was!!


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

i don't know what race you are watching. popo was supposed to be doing the work.

contador doesn't need any help.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

Tahoe Gator said:


> Sad to see Levi just hanging on while Popa does all the work. He should be helping Contador, who is clearly the stronger rider at this point in the tour



I'm glad Disco didn't keep Contador back to "help" Levi.

That would have been a big mistake, like when Astana had Kloden wait for Vino earlier in the race and Kloden lost time.


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

yeah contador! he has much better chance than levi...


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

now Contador has LL and Popo as his domestique from nowon. yup baby!!


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

i doubt bruynell will let contador be the leader yet... not tml at least... at least LL came 4th,40 seconds... abt 1min 40 seconds diff with contador i think..


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

in interview,LL say contador is a contender.. he got 2mins ahead of LL!!


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

that's crazy. Contador rode better TT yesterday and today is the clearly is the strongest rider today. YB is a smart man. i think the biggest winners today is the chicken b/c he ( Rasmussen ) worry Evans and kloeden and now he's another one to worry about. though the chicken only lost 37 seconds to Contador on yesterday's TT. so i want contador to go out and attack all the ay to paris.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

j3fri said:


> i doubt bruynell will let contador be the leader yet... not tml at least... at least LL came 4th,40 seconds... abt 1min 40 seconds diff with contador i think..


i can agree with that. I'm betting they will ride the remaining stages setting up LL and Contador. Whoever wins, well..., wins. Either way the team succeeds.

of course they need to be on the look out for vino's awesome fire power and blistering, well timed attacks.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

teh moreon said:


> i can agree with that. I'm betting they will ride the remaining stages setting up LL and Contador. Whoever wins, well..., wins. Either way the team succeeds.
> 
> of course they need to be on the look out for vino's awesome fire power and blistering, well timed attacks.


Vino was just saving himself for tomorrow's stage.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

This head injury they keep mentioning about AC was he wearing a helmet? Or was it not a bike crash?


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

why are we still talking about Vino?? he's toasted!! now it's 5 men race with LL and Kloeden outside looking in. by the way who's that spanish currently in 8th place ( E-E team )?? he's in top 10 and no one is even mentioning his name.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

MikeBiker said:


> Vino was just saving himself for tomorrow's stage.


word up.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

Levi still has a good chance of getting a podium spot. He's 1:21 behind Cadel after taking over a minute back today.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

MikeBiker said:


> Levi still has a good chance of getting a podium spot. He's 1:21 behind Cadel after taking over a minute back today.


no. LL won't get past 8th position on the GC. then he'll fall back. 
that was an awesome prediction.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

MikeBiker said:


> Levi still has a good chance of getting a podium spot. He's 1:21 behind Cadel after taking over a minute back today.


Levi and Cadel will crash horribly tomorrow trying to suck each other's wheel simultaneously..


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

rogger said:


> Levi and Cadel will crash horribly tomorrow trying to suck each other's wheel simultaneously..


that would create a vortex of biblical proportion. the only way it could be worse. if you added vino's suckiness from today to the equation.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

MikeBiker said:


> Levi still has a good chance of getting a podium spot. He's 1:21 behind Cadel after taking over a minute back today.



You got that one right! Levi is poised to put time on Evans...we might just see Contador AND LL on the podiums. Great for Discovery. I predict Mr. Chicken will be cracked tomorrow...seems to net do as well on the second/third day of climbing.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

may be the chicken will just wheel sucking of Contador from now on.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Tahoe Gator said:


> Sad to see Levi just hanging on while Popa does all the work. He should be helping Contador, who is clearly the stronger rider at this point in the tour


What's sad about it? Popo is <i>supposed</i> to do the work. Levi is <i>supposed</i> to hang on. Contador is <i>supposed</i> to hang on.

Every time I see a comment like this, I wonder how many people actually understand racing strategy and tactics. Not many, I think.

Contador won the stage and is now second on GC. Levi 4th on the stage and moves up to 4th on GC. Now what is sad about that???


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> What's sad about it? Popo is <i>supposed</i> to do the work. Levi is <i>supposed</i> to hang on. Contador is <i>supposed</i> to hang on.
> 
> Every time I see a comment like this, I wonder how many people actually understand racing strategy and tactics. Not many, I think.
> 
> Contador won the stage and is now second on GC. Levi 4th on the stage and moves up to 4th on GC. Now what is sad about that???


It's sad if you spend the entire tour sucking on Haterade.


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## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

It is so exciting watching a young rider doing so well that sometimes you (or at least I) get carried away and forget tactics. 
Contador really does look good on the bike, OTOH LL did go toward the end though too late. I feel for Kloden.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Levi*

Levi said it, we've seen it, and we knew it from the beginning -- he is doing exactly what he's supposed to do.

I don't think Leipheimer has a fast-twitch muscle in his body. He's not an explosive rider. He just rides climbs faster than 95% of the field at a steady tempo. He's the same type of rider as Sastre -- quiet on the bike, solid, and a fairly good time trialist.

Because of all these things, he's probably consigned to being a perennial top-10 finisher in the tour, like we've seen. To win, you either have to be a world-class time trialist, or an explosive rider.

Levi will not, should not sacrifice himself for contador. He'd be a fool to. He's a shoe-in for a top 10, decent shot at a top-5, outside chance at the podium. Contador is really, really impressive so far, but he's an unproven quantity. Why would Bruyneel throw Levi away? In Popovych and Hincapie, they already have the tempo-setting super-domestique firepower.
.
.
.
.
Still, it would be nice to see Leipheimer forget about 5th and let it all hang out.


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## ClimbElYunque (Jun 21, 2005)

*tomorrow is for the KOM*

I maybe wrong, but tomorrow will be for KOM points.
I don't think it will be GC battle unless Chicken goes
greedy for the KOM, which I dont think he will do. GC
riders will suck wheel all day and mark attacks from 
lower placed GC contenders. It is a break away
stage and Soler and Popo should go for KOM points
since Chicken will concentrate on Yellow. I am not
so sure if Popo is interested that much in KOM, he
may be required to protect AC and LL all day. 

Chicken and AC might wait for the following stage 16 
to put time on the TT guys on GC. The only chance
for AC is to crack Chicken on 16.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Levi... should be a domestique for Popo...

At this point in time and for the future of this team I think Popo should be given the green light.

LL time is up. Now or never...

Popo always looks so strong... he can survive in a breakaway... he can even sprint if called for... LL slowtwitch riding style is way more suited as a domestique...


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2007)

It is now or never for LL I think, he has to let it all hang out and go for it.....sort of like FL last year except no T patch on his sack.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> What's sad about it? Popo is <i>supposed</i> to do the work. Levi is <i>supposed</i> to hang on. Contador is <i>supposed</i> to hang on.
> 
> Every time I see a comment like this, I wonder how many people actually understand racing strategy and tactics. Not many, I think.
> 
> Contador won the stage and is now second on GC. Levi 4th on the stage and moves up to 4th on GC. Now what is sad about that???


Exactly.


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## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Going Exactly as Discovery had Planned*



Tahoe Gator said:


> Sad to see Levi just hanging on while Popa does all the work. He should be helping Contador, who is clearly the stronger rider at this point in the tour


I'd say that Discovery's plan is going exactly as it is supposed to. Did you hear what their goals were before the start of the Tour? Have you listened to any of Levi's interviews? Levi is not going to attack. He's hoping to end up on the podium through attrition. Personally, I think this is a reasonable expectation, or at least a reasonable goal anyway.

Now Contador on the other hand, is exceeding everyone's expectations. He is amazing and exiting to watch. His goal of getting the white jersey (in my opinion) has now switched to podium place. I don't believe Johan would want to put any more pressure than this on Contador. Levi's aspirations will not hinder this goal in any way. More importantly, Contador is free to ride for himself. He benefits from George's, Gusev's and Popo's efforts as much as Levi does. And in fact Levi tried to set him up with an attack/counter-attack move today. Turning Levi in to a domestique just doesn't make any sense to me.

In the end, maybe Discovery could get two podium spots. What an accomplishment that would be. If one was yellow - Wow. If Evans and Kloden coninue to falter the next couple of days and Levi & Contador remain strong, it's entirely possible. They just need to Rasmussen to falter ever so slightly too.

Good plan. Realistic goals. Great execution.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

B2 said:


> I'd say that Discovery's plan is going exactly as it is supposed to. Did you hear what their goals were before the start of the Tour? Have you listened to any of Levi's interviews? Levi is not going to attack. He's hoping to end up on the podium through attrition. Personally, I think this is a reasonable expectation, or at least a reasonable goal anyway.
> 
> Now Contador on the other hand, is exceeding everyone's expectations. He is amazing and exiting to watch. His goal of getting the white jersey (in my opinion) has now switched to podium place. I don't believe Johan would want to put any more pressure than this on Contador. Levi's aspirations will not hinder this goal in any way. More importantly, Contador is free to ride for himself. He benefits from George's, Gusev's and Popo's efforts as much as Levi does. And in fact Levi tried to set him up with an attack/counter-attack move today. Turning Levi in to a domestique just doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> ...


I think that's a good assessment. I would add one point. LL showed himself to be an excellent team member today. He didn't go for it against Sastre and Evans while Rasmussen and Contador were hashing it out. He waited til Contador got his accomplishment. I think that's noteworthy.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

I should know this, but I assume tomorrow's a *****. If LL was "saving" himself today, and can attack on a climb hard tomorrow, he's in good shape. But JB wouldn't let LL attack the hightest placed GCman in contador. And he (LL) admitted today, that hard accellerations on hills aren't his "style". HOW THE F&*CK is he supposed to take time on the hills then? Politely ask everyone to slow down???
Don't get me wrong, I like LL alot but waiting for the last time trial and praying to NOT get dropped while the other guys attack dozens of times in the next hard days just ain't gonna win him the tour. LL says he prefers the pyrennes? WHY. He was hanging by a thread. 
Tomorrow better be an epic day for LL, otherwise I'm counting him out.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

jhamlin38 said:


> I should know this, but I assume tomorrow's a *****. If LL was "saving" himself today, and can attack on a climb hard tomorrow, he's in good shape. But JB wouldn't let LL attack the hightest placed GCman in contador. And he (LL) admitted today, that hard accellerations on hills aren't his "style". HOW THE F&*CK is he supposed to take time on the hills then? Politely ask everyone to slow down???
> Don't get me wrong, I like LL alot but waiting for the last time trial and praying to NOT get dropped while the other guys attack dozens of times in the next hard days just ain't gonna win him the tour. LL says he prefers the pyrennes? WHY. He was hanging by a thread.
> Tomorrow better be an epic day for LL, otherwise I'm counting him out.


Have you ever ridden a bike on a climb. It's entirely possible to just ride people off your wheel if your feeling good, no need for a blistering attack. Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum even ride bikes?


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

jhamlin38 said:


> I should know this, but I assume tomorrow's a *****. If LL was "saving" himself today, and can attack on a climb hard tomorrow, he's in good shape. But JB wouldn't let LL attack the hightest placed GCman in contador. And he (LL) admitted today, that hard accellerations on hills aren't his "style". HOW THE F&*CK is he supposed to take time on the hills then? Politely ask everyone to slow down???
> Don't get me wrong, I like LL alot but waiting for the last time trial and praying to NOT get dropped while the other guys attack dozens of times in the next hard days just ain't gonna win him the tour. LL says he prefers the pyrennes? WHY. He was hanging by a thread.
> Tomorrow better be an epic day for LL, otherwise I'm counting him out.


He put time into Sastre and Evans today and moved up another GC position, as well. I think that's the answer to your questions. Look at how he rode today. His ability to ride steadily on steep grades allows him to come back and best some of the riders he is up against. 
He is simply a very, very sound racer.


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## RickyRitalin (Dec 16, 2005)

*Don't count Levi out just yet*

It seems to me that Disco is really playing their cards right. AC was supposed to mark the Chicken and LL was supposed to mark Cadel Evans and keep Sastre in check. Both points accomplished. Tomorrow is another day, but I think we are seeing that Disco has the firepower to win a podium in Paris. Ithought Astana would be the stud team, but they burnt too much energy keeping Vino in the hunt. I agree with the assessment that AC is a contendor for the MJ, but I hope others in the peleton (both in France and on cyberspace) are forgetting about Levi. It will leave the door wide open. I really think he is dosing his efforts very well. Sherwin (or maybe it was Phil) commented that Levi "didn't appear too worked up at all climbing this mountain as we see Cadel drop off."

I definitely think it is JB's strategy to fight fire with fire - AC marks the Chicken and LL marks Cadel. With Gusev, Hincappie and Popo as _uber-_domestiques (all 1st lieutenants on other teams), I'm beginning to think Disco might pull off winning the tour after all.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

I truly think Contador is a swell rider. So is Levi. I do, however think that unless Levi rides really well tomorrow, Johan might switch the leadership role for le Tour towards Contador as he genuinely has a shot at the _maillot jaune_. But, he'll need Popo and Hincapie (Popo by the way, would likely be a team leader on any other team given his prowess to reel in the breakaways, to breakaway and hang on, and sprint and yet still be 10th on GC.) to really be on song as well as Levi so that there's more guys to pace him (Levi will sit back just like Alberto and either attack if it's feasible or just see how it goes)

I also agree that Leipheimer was a true team leader/player in that he allowed Contador to go for the win when he might have been able to actually launch an attack on his own part as well should he desire. Yet, he saw Contador as a man with better position and allowed his young comrade the opportunity of his maiden Tour win.

That said, Contador looks poised for a podium finish with Leipheimer having a good chance as well actually. I hope both these guys have great days tomorrow and battle it out for the stage win.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

teh moreon said:


> i can agree with that. I'm betting they will ride the remaining stages setting up LL and Contador. Whoever wins, well..., wins. Either way the team succeeds.
> 
> of course they need to be on the look out for vino's awesome fire power and blistering, well timed attacks.


I agree with you dude.

Although Levi's days as the team leader could be numbered especially if Contador makes up more ground. Though, I still think Popo and Hincapie would work for both of them, along with Gusev and Levi and Alberto would sit at the back. Come the end, the stronger rider would go for it but if Alberto is in good ground for the maillot jaune, I say Levi would pull him too. Definitely


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> What's sad about it? Popo is <i>supposed</i> to do the work. Levi is <i>supposed</i> to hang on. Contador is <i>supposed</i> to hang on.
> 
> Every time I see a comment like this, I wonder how many people actually understand racing strategy and tactics. Not many, I think.
> 
> Contador won the stage and is now second on GC. Levi 4th on the stage and moves up to 4th on GC. Now what is sad about that???


Exact-o-mundo

If need be, I'm very sure Levi would work for Alberto.


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## Hairnet (Dec 17, 2006)

OnTheRivet said:


> Have you ever ridden a bike on a climb. It's entirely possible to just ride people off your wheel if your feeling good, no need for a blistering attack. Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum even ride bikes?


Yep. That is how Hampsten won at Alp D'huez.


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## mpk1996 (May 11, 2007)

I think all of you nay sayers are crazy. Today's stage could not have gone better for Team Disco. I mean really. AC is free to attack and stay with Rass, while LL keeps super steady pace. He finished 4th, but really 3rd since the poka dot is not really a contender. so as far as the GC goes Disco went 1st and 3rd today. LL didn't hurt himself, just stayed rock steady. The one thing we can never know is how hard each rider went. maybe AC gave it his all and will be dead tomorrow. prob not, but it poss. maybe AC's job is to wear down the chicken so that LL is fresh to just ride off the front. Rass had to put in a lot of work today to try to get the gap on Evans and the rest. Could that have been the plan? hurting Rass and not letting LL drop too far back, while cracking the rest of the field? who else hung in there today? NO ONE!! tomorrow is a harder day and LL is in a great pos. Since AC was working Rass and taking the stage, LL didn't need to work as hard as everyone else. This is not a one day classic. There is still a lot of hard racing left. I think both AC and LL have a very good chance at Yellow in Paris, but you would all be fools to think that LL should bow out at this point.


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## mpk1996 (May 11, 2007)

Exactly,

Just like the chicken did to take the yellow. he just rode away from the other 2 riders in the break with him, never even asking them to do any work -- just rode away.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

If anything happens to Contador, Levi is on the podium. Not a bad hand.

fc


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

z ken said:


> may be the chicken will just wheel sucking of Contador from now on.


Please, learn z ken grammar or he will be execute!


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

teh moreon said:


> He put time into Sastre and Evans today and moved up another GC position, as well. I think that's the answer to your questions. Look at how he rode today. His ability to ride steadily on steep grades allows him to come back and best some of the riders he is up against.
> He is simply a very, very sound racer.


Yes, he _is_ a very, very sound racer but he is also very, very invisible. You can count on him riding a top 10 position in the TdF but you can also count on him to never shine. He is the exact opposite of Voeckler in the sense that Levi gets minimum exposure for maximum output. He's lousy as a contender but he'd be an übermensch of a domestique..


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## Cervelo-er (Apr 10, 2004)

I seemed to have noticed AC looking over his shoulder a LOT when things were getting twitchy...maybe to see if he and LL could work together up the mountain? Of course he was also checking the other riders, but it's too bad LL couldn't have matched AC earlier in the final climb and put Le Chicken into difficulty...a one-two punch...

Still, I think the tactics played out well, JB knows what he's doing, and with a little luck, it will all come good in Paris.

BTW- At the end of the stage, it looks like AC's RPE was about 6 while Rass was at 9. Me thinks this could be a harbinger of things to come...


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

OnTheRivet said:


> Have you ever ridden a bike on a climb. It's entirely possible to just ride people off your wheel if your feeling good, no need for a blistering attack. Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum even ride bikes?


I often wonder the same thing :thumbsup: 

People fall in love with climbers that can accelerate and make it look easy, however they don't realize how much those accelerations can take a toll on their legs over time.

People also fall in love with things they know little about. Levi seems like he's been around in a while, so he's old news. Contador is a new guy, 1st tour and he's tearing it up so he must be AWESOME!!!! So they throw all their support his way.

There is a ton to be said about Levi, but people just don't like him because he's not Lance. In fact he's Lances polar opposite. Levi isn't brash, doesn't attack, has a quite demeanor and doesn't look for the spotlight. Those are all things people don't like in people, well at least not their hero's.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

Cervelo-er said:


> I seemed to have noticed AC looking over his shoulder a LOT when things were getting twitchy...maybe to see if he and LL could work together up the mountain? Of course he was also checking the other riders, but it's too bad LL couldn't have matched AC earlier in the final climb and put Le Chicken into difficulty...a one-two punch...
> 
> Still, I think the tactics played out well, JB knows what he's doing, and with a little luck, it will all come good in Paris.
> 
> BTW- At the end of the stage, it looks like AC's RPE was about 6 while Rass was at 9. Me thinks this could be a harbinger of things to come...


They actually did use the ol' one-two.
LL's first attack (or attempt, at least ) didn't work. As soon the other riders came up, Contador took off causing the Chickenator to follow.


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## Tugboat (Jul 17, 2006)

Leipheimer isn't a Tour winner. He showed last night his big weakness in the mountains. Like Evans, he is a tempo climber. He can climb strongly by maintaining a good tempo but can't attack or respond quickly when an attack goes. Even though his TT is okay, it's not enough to cover the time he'll lose to riders like Rasmussen or Contador in the mountains.


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

teh moreon said:


> no. LL won't get past 8th position on the GC.
> that was an awesome prediction.



That was my prediction, but Im glad to see him proving me wrong. I also didnt expect Vino, Moreau, Valverde, and Mayo to fall out of the top 10 like rocks.

The race is not over. Levi climbed really well today. Probably the smartest of all by not going into the red zone like Cadel chasing the lightweight climbing specialists at every acceleration. Those two got Cadel good, I could see his crack coming from a mile away. Levi is riding smart by staying calm everyday. The more you stay out of the red zone the better you'll be at the end.


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

OnTheRivet said:


> . Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum even ride bikes?



Haha! Its amazing isnt it. I actually find it slightly entertaining to read how confused people are about racing and the way it works.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

i think the biggest threat for team disco now is kloeden. wonder what Vino and that russian dude ( can't spell his name ) will do from now on. attacking i assume.


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

Popo had his chance to lead the team at the Giro and got sick. He's placed on the podium before so it makes sense. 
Rasmussen rode well today but I'm sure it's taking a toll on him with less help than Disco and having to watch and respond to so many other contenders. He didn't look very happy on the podium today but if he wins he will have earned it. 
Disco is in a great position - able to attack and cover attacks with high GC men forcing the other teams to also cover. Conti sits on Raz's wheel, LL on Evans and both can attack. Popo covers the rest. Conti and LL know that they can put time on Ras and Evans at the end. 
Tomorrow will see another contender or 2 lose too much time. I would bet Ras of the top 5 would be most likely.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

culdeus said:


> This head injury they keep mentioning about AC was he wearing a helmet? Or was it not a bike crash?


bumpitty bump


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

rogger said:


> Yes, he _is_ but he is also very, very invisible.


just b'cause he's a wee fellow.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

culdeus said:


> bumpitty bump


it was a crash in the Vuelta a Asturias in 04, I assume he had a helmet on.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

how exactly do you propose Contador would win? He hasn't been able to put time into Rasmussen on a climb yet and he won't gain time on the final TT. LL had maybe a career day today-finishing 4th on an explosive climb, ahead of Sastre, Kloden, and Evans. Give the guy some credit. He's too far down to gain it back in the final TT, but there's still lots of racing left.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

I think there is a GREAT chance for Discovery to have 2 riders on the podium. Evans is going to continue to crack, Levi will be steady, Rasmussen and Contador are too explosive for him, but I'm not sure they'll get enough distance to avoid an interesting time trial. I think Kloden is hurt--I'd be surprised to see him beat any of those 3 on any of the existing mountain stages.

Discovery better be careful how they handle Contador--I'm sure there are plenty of other teams that would be happy to have him, and if he gets burned he'll be more inclined to listen. Saunier Duval probably would've felt a lot better doing that work for someone like Contador! 

I agree about Soler--sign him up.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

rogger said:


> Please, learn z ken grammar or he will be execute!


Give Ken a break. It's difficult of Nigerians to do the grammer correctly. Anyway, he's got $10 million that he needs your help on in getting out of the bank. Just send him $20,000 and half the $10,000,000 will be yours.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

thanks Mike. the check is on the way. hahah


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

*Well said!!*



teh moreon said:


> It's sad if you spend the entire tour sucking on Haterade.


Ohhhh snaaap! A Contadorian attack from which there is no reply.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Wookiebiker said:


> I often wonder the same thing :thumbsup:
> 
> People fall in love with climbers that can accelerate and make it look easy, however they don't realize how much those accelerations can take a toll on their legs over time.
> 
> ...


Contador has already ridden and finished 31st in the 2005 Tour. He might have been around last year if he had not got caught up in Astana's troubles along with Vino.

People don't necessarily dislike Levi personally. Matter of fact, I doubt anyone in here knows Levi personally, so they can't judge whether he's a "nice" guy or not. We only have short interview snips. Maybe a sitdown interview with fellow riders and family member could give us a better picture of him as a person.
After Lance, and after Basso, Disco fans saw Levi as another American hopeful, but still remember seeing him fall short for many years. People who look for heros don't want to be associated with losers. When they set up someone as the next great hope, fairly or unfairly, and that hero lets them down, they don't want to get burned again. They lose faith because they asked too much of the hero from the very beginning. We have a ton of Chris Horner fans who aren't disappointed in him. Why? Because he wasn't unreasonably set up as a contender, leaving him room to exceed expectations. If you believe the pre-Tour hype, anything but a podium position for Levi is a disappointment. 
Disco set him up as the team leader because he's already finished high in the Tour several times. Contador was kinda unknown, finished around 30th a couple years ago, never lead a team in a grand tour, etc. Levi's been set up so he has ten thousand ways to disappoint, and only one chance to get approval. That's a heavy load for a rider. It's also why Disco didn't want to over-hype the much younger and inexperienced Contador. 
Levi should still shoot for the podium as long as it doesn't directly risk Alberto's second place.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

huez said:


> Haha! Its amazing isnt it. I actually find it slightly entertaining to read how confused people are about racing and the way it works.


The part I find especially amusing is when people go on and on about tactics. Tactics mean phuck all if you haven't got the legs. This is not the NFL.


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

Disco is having an unbelievably fantastic Tour. Their main guy is out and they still have 2 guys contending. Bruyneel saw what happened when he didn't hedge his bets last year in the Vuelta. He still doesn't know if Contador can handle the pressure, although it's looking good that he can, and Levi is getting stronger as the race goes along.


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## BikinCO (Feb 17, 2004)

*Give him a break, he's trying*



rogger said:


> Please, learn z ken grammar or he will be execute!


Photographic proof that z ken is trying to improve by taking an English class.


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## Vandizzy (Jul 11, 2007)

Gotta love JB and the cards he plays with his disco team. I wouldn't discredit any of his predictions, a podium, the white jersey, and some stage wins. As he has lived up to what he has said for the last ten years gotta love this race and it's shake ups this year.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

OnTheRivet said:


> Tactics mean phuck all if you haven't got the legs.


Yesterday, Saunier-Duval vs Discovery.

If the leader(s) can't deliver the DS is an idiot, if he does then he becomes a genius


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## Frank Tuesday (Jun 1, 2002)

Great ride by Levi today. Stay out of the wind and save energy so he can attack once we hit the Pyrenees


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## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

*what*



stevesbike said:


> how exactly do you propose Contador would win? *He hasn't been able to put time into Rasmussen on a climb yet and he won't gain time on the final *TT. LL had maybe a career day today-finishing 4th on an explosive climb, ahead of Sastre, Kloden, and Evans. Give the guy some credit. He's too far down to gain it back in the final TT, but there's still lots of racing left.



and what are you basing this on? He beat the chicken by 37 seconds on the last TT...and in that TT the chicken rode the TT of his life, had a little better weather, passed valverde (seeing him gave him a second wind), ect....all of which the chicken admitted in an interview after the TT. The next TT doesn't have a cat4 climb on it (which no doubt helped the chicken).................so exactly how do you not expect contador to take time out of him there?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the first TT suited Contador just as much. I think Contador would need to cut down the 2:23 deficit more to go into the last TT with a chance of winning. If they don't get more time out of Evans he could make up the difference in the last TT over both of them.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Frank Tuesday said:


> Great ride by Levi today. Stay out of the wind and save energy so he can attack once we hit the Pyrenees


When Levi decides to finally make a move... the tour will be 2 weeks over.


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## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

*ok*



stevesbike said:


> the first TT suited Contador just as much. I think Contador would need to cut down the 2:23 deficit more to go into the last TT with a chance of winning. If they don't get more time out of Evans he could make up the difference in the last TT over both of them.



I will agree that the climb certainly helped contador on the TT. However I still think he can take time out of him in the final TT. The chicken had a little better weather than contador, passed valverde which gave him an adrenaline boost, and basically rode the TT of his life. (all by his own admission in an interview) Now while i believe the climb in the first TT helped both, i don't think contador went all out like the chicken...and i believe he is a better TTist. With all that said though I think a lot changes on Wednesday.


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## krankenstein (Sep 12, 2006)

shabbasuraj said:


> When Levi decides to finally make a move... the tour will be 2 weeks over.


LMAO:biggrin5: funny cause its so true


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## KB11 (Nov 18, 2004)

This is totally amazing, Levi has been climbing up the CG and is only 1 min 25 sec out of 3rd place! Anything can happen on the last mountain stage or the ITT. I keep reading that Levi isnt a CG contender but hes in 4th place ! give the guy a break


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

Why do so many people who blast Levi L. kiss Vino's rear end on this forum? Where is LL in the GC and where is Vino? Sure he has his injuries from crash, but please, give it a rest. It nauseates me to see everyone on versus and on these forums slobering all over Vino like he is some kind of war hero or something. I dont believe Vino would be doing much better than he is now in the GC even if he had not crashed and sustained his injuries. This year for Vino looks pretty much like most of his other TDFs, a few great stages with so called brave attacks mixed in with a few horrible stages. I dont think Vino has ever had it to win the overall TDF. I dont think Levi does either, but at least he is more consistent. I think LL is doing all he can, he is still a great rider in the grand scheme of cycling.


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## bornin53 (Sep 3, 2005)

*Hincapie Bested Levi Today*

George Hincapie finished today's crucial Pyrenees stage 40 seconds ahead of team leader and GC contender Levi Leipheimer.

I hope Johan finds a sponsor soon so he can start building a Grand Tour team around Contador, not to mention keeping Devolder.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

tellico climber said:


> Why do so many people who blast Levi L. kiss Vino's rear end on this forum? Where is LL in the GC and where is Vino? Sure he has his injuries from crash, but please, give it a rest. It nauseates me to see everyone on versus and on these forums slobering all over Vino like he is some kind of war hero or something. I dont believe Vino would be doing much better than he is now in the GC even if he had not crashed and sustained his injuries. This year for Vino looks pretty much like most of his other TDFs, a few great stages with so called brave attacks mixed in with a few horrible stages. I dont think Vino has ever had it to win the overall TDF. I dont think Levi does either, but at least he is more consistent. I think LL is doing all he can, he is still a great rider in the grand scheme of cycling.


if Levi had sustained Vino's injuries, he wouldn't be racing right now. he'd be home.


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

bornin53 said:


> George Hincapie finished today's crucial Pyrenees stage 40 seconds ahead of team leader and GC contender Levi Leipheimer.



That doesnt mean anything. Levi will outclimb Hincapie on any substantial climb.

If you havent noticed, breaks go out and the peloton lets them go up the road because theyre non-contenders.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

rufus said:


> if Levi had sustained Vino's injuries, he wouldn't be racing right now. he'd be home.



Proof? I dont think so, this is just conjecture on your part. I suppose you think Vino is the only one in the Tour who is such a man. Vino as always, is over-rated. Levi however, is pretty much living up to expectations. I dont think many people really thought Levi would actually win the tour, although he is not totally out yet, just doubtful. Look, it takes a lot of hard work,pain and dedication to be a TDF rider. I dont think Vino is any different than most of the rest of them in this regard. My point is that I feel LL is getting a lot of unwarrented criticism for his performance and Vino is getting a lot of butt kissing praise for his. I believe LL would ride in Vino's condition, but I have no way to back this statement up either.

It looks as though LL is a top 5, possible podium finisher in this years TDF. I think he deserves praise for this rather than criticism. I know I would certainly feel like a success if it were me, and would be pissed that people were talking trash about me despite my best efforts and success. I think that if LL were totally out of contention for a podium spot as Vino was going into todays stage, he would be capable of producing the same result as Vino did today because the GC contenders would not consider him a threat. I also believe he could do it with Vino's injuries. Once again, no way to prove it, just my opinion.

Please dont take my post as hostile to you personally, I dont mean it that way. I just with people would stop kicking LL when he is doing his best and getting good results


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

tellico climber said:


> Why do so many people who blast Levi L. kiss Vino's rear end on this forum? Where is LL in the GC and where is Vino? Sure he has his injuries from crash, but please, give it a rest. It nauseates me to see everyone on versus and on these forums slobering all over Vino like he is some kind of war hero or something. I dont believe Vino would be doing much better than he is now in the GC even if he had not crashed and sustained his injuries. This year for Vino looks pretty much like most of his other TDFs, a few great stages with so called brave attacks mixed in with a few horrible stages. I dont think Vino has ever had it to win the overall TDF. I dont think Levi does either, but at least he is more consistent. I think LL is doing all he can, he is still a great rider in the grand scheme of cycling.



They love Vino because he's an idiot but fun to watch, which is why he will never win the tour. He goes on attacks, kills himself, then dies the next day. Then he recovers, goes back out and attacks again, even though he's now 30 minutes down because he was an idiot. He does it every year.

They hate Levi because he's boring. He rarely attacks, rides within his limits, marks competitiors and doesn't interview well. He's a steady rider that remains consistant through the entire tour. His biggest problem is he just can't push himself beyond the red zone when he needs to to drop or stay with the top climbers.

People love to see things that are considered "Great" even if they never win. They don't like boring.....Hence the love of Vino and the hate for Levi.

To each their own I guess.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

rufus said:


> if Levi had sustained Vino's injuries, he wouldn't be racing right now. he'd be home.


if? what a great phrase.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

tellico climber said:


> Proof? I dont think so, this is just conjecture on your part. I suppose you think Vino is the only one in the Tour who is such a man. Vino as always, is over-rated. Levi however, is pretty much living up to expectations. I dont think many people really thought Levi would actually win the tour, although he is not totally out yet, just doubtful. Look, it takes a lot of hard work,pain and dedication to be a TDF rider. I dont think Vino is any different than most of the rest of them in this regard. My point is that I feel LL is getting a lot of unwarrented criticism for his performance and Vino is getting a lot of butt kissing praise for his. I believe LL would ride in Vino's condition, but I have no way to back this statement up either.
> 
> It looks as though LL is a top 5, possible podium finisher in this years TDF. I think he deserves praise for this rather than criticism. I know I would certainly feel like a success if it were me, and would be pissed that people were talking trash about me despite my best efforts and success. I think that if LL were totally out of contention for a podium spot as Vino was going into todays stage, he would be capable of producing the same result as Vino did today because the GC contenders would not consider him a threat. I also believe he could do it with Vino's injuries. Once again, no way to prove it, just my opinion.
> 
> Please dont take my post as hostile to you personally, I dont mean it that way. I just with people would stop kicking LL when he is doing his best and getting good results


Sorry that's not good enough. you gotta be cooooooooool, like Vino. Mail it in one day, let your team suffer. Then come back blazing guns for some glory!!! Damn the torpedos and your team mates (ask Kloden. who cares if they sacrificed themselves for you? even if you didn't have a snowball's chance in hell). You gotta be tough and cheeky. You can't work within your limitations and within the infrastructure of a real team dynamic. You gotta be the dude. ugh. If you do that. Then you get a pass, excuse, an real good "if only" statement from your supporters. If only.


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## Tahoe Gator (May 28, 2002)

As the original poster, thought I would weigh back in. Original point was not dislike for Levi, only that Disco's only chance to win the yellow jersey lies with Contador and thus, while the how is up to Brunyeel, my thoughts were that Levi's podium chances need to take a back seat to any chance he might have, if any, to aid in Contador's chance of winning. I would imagine that in the grand scheme of things for Disco, especially with Discovery dropping their sponsorship, a podium or top 5 or whatever place for Levi is nearly immaterial compared to the chance for the overall win.


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## wheel_suker (Feb 3, 2005)

I think all this Contador worship has gone to your heads!

I thought Bruyneel was supposed to be smart. All Contador has done is to pull the chicken further ahead of Levi. Levi is still the better time trialist and had the better chance of overtaking Rasmuseen in the TT. Today Contador had help in the shape of Hincapie to further help Rasmussen. Maybe they should swap teams! Discovery is racing for 2nd place.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Tahoe Gator said:


> As the original poster, thought I would weigh back in. Original point was not dislike for Levi, only that Disco's only chance to win the yellow jersey lies with Contador and thus, while the how is up to Brunyeel, my thoughts were that Levi's podium chances need to take a back seat to any chance he might have, if any, to aid in Contador's chance of winning. I would imagine that in the grand scheme of things for Disco, especially with Discovery dropping their sponsorship, a podium or top 5 or whatever place for Levi is nearly immaterial compared to the chance for the overall win.


I'm sure a podium finish by any rider would be awesome for Discovery, but if they can get Levi on the podium all the better.

Chances are they are looking for an American sponsor, who most likely will want an American team leader. That puts JB in a tight spot. Obviously Contador is riding very well and baring anything major he will be on the podium in either 1st or 2nd place. But Contador is Spanish, and when you are looking for an American sponsor to sell to the American public, that doesn't necessarily cut it.

The best bet for Discovery at this time is to try and get both Levi and Contador on the podium, which I think they are trying to do. They have let Contador do what ever he wants and if he can break Rasmussen's legs and make him crack all the better. The rest of the team protects Levi when Contador attacks to help Levi get on the podium.

Not only that, but by doing so it increases their chances at a team win, which again will help with landing a sponsor for 2008. 

There is a lot more in play here than just supporting Contador and JB knows this. If he can't get a sponsor, the team is out of business and it disbands. That's a lot of pressure and will play a role in your tactics during the race.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

wheel_suker said:


> I think all this Contador worship has gone to your heads!
> 
> I thought Bruyneel was supposed to be smart. All Contador has done is to pull the chicken further ahead of Levi. Levi is still the better time trialist and had the better chance of overtaking Rasmuseen in the TT. Today Contador had help in the shape of Hincapie to further help Rasmussen. Maybe they should swap teams! Discovery is racing for 2nd place.


This is the most confused post I've read in a long time. Every statement is worse than the next.

fc


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## Frank Tuesday (Jun 1, 2002)

tellico climber said:


> Why do so many people who blast Levi L. kiss Vino's rear end on this forum?


Vino and Levi are polar opposites. Vino attacks because of what he might win. Levi doesn't attack because of what he might lose. 

People will take a fighter over a follower everyday.


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## krankenstein (Sep 12, 2006)

Frank Tuesday said:


> Vino and Levi are polar opposites. Vino attacks because of what he might win. Levi doesn't attack because of what he might lose.
> 
> People will take a fighter over a follower everyday.


+1:thumbsup: 
Exactly, Vino tries and make plays whenever and where ever he can, and if he fails, at least he tried. Not only is that more exciting, its more inspiring as well. Nevermind some of the bad luck he's suffered. Levi on the other hand, never risk all the marbles, therefore will never win the whole enchilada. 
He has had a pretty smooth run through this tour, with a strong team behind him, yet what has he done with it? Nothing. He says he has been working on his TT, yet he didn't gain much time there, it was only an ok TT by his own admission. He kept saying in the first half of the tour, wait till the pyrenees, he's peaking for the pyrenees. Well, two of of the three pyreenee stages have come and gone, and all I have seen of Levi is one half hearted attack in yesterday's stage before the fireworks really flew, and a dig at the top past an already cracked Evans. His riding may net him a podium place at best, but in all likely hood, will just get him a top 5 placing. 

Don't get me wrong, I think Levi is a good solid rider. Capable of top 10 results in GTs, and wins in weeklong stage races, as he has proven; he would make an awesome super domestique for a true tour contender. I am just tired of the Versus commentators talking him up for the American audience, spinning his wheelsucking as "smart" riding and the fanboys who buy into him as a possible winner of the TDF.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

krankenstein said:


> +1:thumbsup:
> Exactly, Vino tries and make plays whenever and where ever he can, and if he fails, at least he tried. Not only is that more exciting, its more inspiring as well. Nevermind some of the bad luck he's suffered. Levi on the other hand, never risk all the marbles, therefore will never win the whole enchilada.
> He has had a pretty smooth run through this tour, with a strong team behind him, yet what has he done with it? Nothing. He says he has been working on his TT, yet he didn't gain much time there, it was only an ok TT by his own admission. He kept saying in the first half of the tour, wait till the pyrenees, he's peaking for the pyrenees. Well, two of of the three pyreenee stages have come and gone, and all I have seen of Levi is one half hearted attack in yesterday's stage before the fireworks really flew, and a dig at the top past an already cracked Evans. His riding may net him a podium place at best, but in all likely hood, will just get him a top 5 placing.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Levi is a good solid rider. Capable of top 10 results in GTs, and wins in weeklong stage races, as he has proven; he would make an awesome super domestique for a true tour contender. I am just tired of the Versus commentators talking him up for the American audience, spinning his wheelsucking as "smart" riding and the fanboys who buy into him as a possible winner of the TDF.


Wow. "fanboy". So you were pulling for Contador and Rasmussen from the beginning? I bet you were one of the original Vino bandwagoneers. But he's out. So who is leading? X, Y, or Z? As soon as you know that. You know who to get the pom-poms out for. Quick buy a different jersey! 
Have you been watching le tour, really? LL is in 4th place far better than anyone expected around here. He is up against 2 amazing climbers. They happen to be out performing their expectation. They have show more ability certainly. The only person I see underperforming for himself and team is the holy Vino. I don't hear Liggett and Paul talking about him non-stop. I do hear them spouting non-stop about Vino, even yesterday when he was sandbagging it. ugh.
It's a great race. Stop slagging it down like some drunk soccer hooligan with an internet connection or the guy who suddenly becomes the lifelong fan of his city's team; once he finds out thet are in the Super Bowl. geez.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

my orginally pick for the tour was Valverde, Vino and Levi ( you can check the thread " pick the tour winners " ) trust me i've bashed both Valverde and Vino. atleast i gave Vino some credits. he attacks eventhough he knows he's no longer in contention. Valverde also let me down big time b/c he too also not attacking. is Levi and Valverde related??


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

francois said:


> This is the most confused post I've read in a long time. Every statement is worse than the next.
> 
> fc



I never knew cycling tactics 101 was so complex for so many people.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

francois said:


> This is the most confused post I've read in a long time. Every statement is worse than the next.
> 
> fc


Surely you didn't mean that now eh? :smilewinkgrin:


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## krankenstein (Sep 12, 2006)

teh moreon said:


> Wow. "fanboy". So you were pulling for Contador and Rasmussen from the beginning? I bet you were one of the original Vino bandwagoneers. But he's out. So who is leading? X, Y, or Z? As soon as you know that. You know who to get the pom-poms out for. Quick buy a different jersey!
> Have you been watching le tour, really? LL is in 4th place far better than anyone expected around here. He is up against 2 amazing climbers. They happen to be out performing their expectation. They have show more ability certainly. The only person I see underperforming for himself and team is the holy Vino. I don't hear Liggett and Paul talking about him non-stop. I do hear them spouting non-stop about Vino, even yesterday when he was sandbagging it. ugh.
> It's a great race. Stop slagging it down like some drunk soccer hooligan with an internet connection or the guy who suddenly becomes the lifelong fan of his city's team; once he finds out thet are in the Super Bowl. geez.


No, I wasn't pulling for Contador and rasmussen from the beginning, contador now, rasmussen not so much. I originally had Kloden as my odds on favourite, as I found Vino's inconsistant climbing in the dauphine unconvincing, guess we will never know now... In any case I never claimed to have a crystal ball, I certainly didn't think Chicken would keep the yellow jersey past the first TT.
As I said in my previous post ( read it carefully), I think Levi "is a good solid rider, who is capable of Top 10 in GTs". So yes, he is doing far better than you and I expected, but unforturnately there were also a lot of people touting him as a contender for the top step of the podium, which is unrealistic in my opinion.
Ligget and Paul may not have talked about him non-stop, but Trautwig and Bob Roll sure have.
Lastly, it is a great race with fantastic battles, and I am loving every minute of it. Where in my previous post did I slag the racing? Or denigrate the race itself? Perhaps reading comprehension is just not your strength.


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## bikerideaz (Jul 24, 2007)

Ugh, Levi. He needs to be a worker and not captain already. He's had his chance to prove his worth and has failed to do so plenty. caca.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

tellico climber said:


> Why do so many people who blast Levi L. kiss Vino's rear end on this forum?


Because most people are attracted to riders with panache. Vino has boat loads of it, Levi has none.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

Frank Tuesday said:


> Levi doesn't attack because of what he might lose.


The hallmark of mediocrity.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

Lets get this straight. Levi is currently 2nd amongst to original so called contendors behind only Cadel Evans and is considered a complete failure and a man with no courage and guts. Maybe he is not a complete dumb a-- like perhaps Vino. Maybe he should put up great performances like Valverde has thus far. I dont think many people before the Tour began would have given Rasmussen a chance or Contador either for that matter. So if it were not for Skeletor and Contadors somewhat unexpected performances Levi would be in 2nd place with still a great chance for overall victory. Yep, this shows he is such a loser. Also, why does no one on versus or on these forums point out that most of the other contendors could have won yesterdays stage in the manner Vino did if they were already 30 something minutes down. Vino was only allowed to win because he was no longer a GC threat, and please spare me the " Vino is so brave and courageous, look at his fight even with his injuries", makes me want to puke.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Let's not also forget that on yesterday's stage Levi was clearly sacrificing his own GC standing to help Contador by letting Cadel pull all the way back to the finish. Levi did not (nor should he have) take a single pull after Contador took off and Skeletor tailed him.


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## krankenstein (Sep 12, 2006)

fornaca68 said:


> Let's not also forget that on yesterday's stage Levi was clearly sacrificing his own GC standing to help Contador by letting Cadel pull all the way back to the finish. Levi did not (nor should he have) take a single pull after Contador took off and Skeletor tailed him.


I don't think you can for sure say that he sacrificed his own chances, it is just as if not more likely that Levi just didn't have the legs to make an attack. Levi had already demonstrated at this years Tour of Georgia that he is willing to put personal interest ahead of team interest, if a win is on offer. At the Brasstown Bald stage, Levi left Jani Brajkovic (discovery's GC leader in that race) whom he was supposed to protect, on the lower slopes of the final climb and main challenge of the stage- the Brasstown Bald, to pursue the win. So its hard to say clearly whether he choose to sacrifice his own chances or he was already on the limit. What we can say is that Levi clearly wants a TDF win or even a podium a lot more than a Tour of Georgia win, so what makes you think he would become so much more magnanimous all of a sudden at the TDF?


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

Let's check my comprehension and your perception and your powers of recall here. 
_Exactly, Vino tries and make plays whenever and where ever he can, and if he fails, at least he tried. Not only is that more exciting, its more inspiring as well. Nevermind some of the bad luck he's suffered._ 1. Vino fails and it's ok. Vino has bad luck so he gets a pass.? It's not bad luck to end up with someone on your team who is exploding and over achieving beyond belief? Don't say it's not bad luck and LL should do more for Contador. If you would follow that logic. A rider like Vino should be doing more to help Kloden out and not go for stage victories. But I don't hear any harping about that. He's inspiring? How so? He doesn't try and damages his team's overall chance for success because he is totally out of contention. 

_He has had a pretty smooth run through this tour, with a strong team behind him, yet what has he done with it? Nothing._ 4th place equates nothing? okie dokie.
_He says he has been working on his TT, yet he didn't gain much time there, it was only an ok TT by his own admission. _ He rode safe in the TT on wet roads. Bad idea? Ask Jan Ullrich about wet roads and TT's? 
_He kept saying in the first half of the tour, wait till the pyrenees, he's peaking for the pyrenees. Well, two of of the three pyreenee stages have come and gone, and all I have seen of Levi is one half hearted attack in yesterday's stage before the fireworks really flew, and a dig at the top past an already cracked Evans_. So, when LL does try. It still isn't good enough. But it's great when other riders try and fail? Nice piece of duality there, mate._
His riding may net him a podium place at best, but in all likelihood, will just get him a top 5 placing._ Just a top 5? just? wow. I thought if a rider for 5th place on the Champs. It made fifth place almost as good as 1st?

_Don't get me wrong, I think Levi is a good solid rider. Capable of top 10 results in GTs, and wins in weeklong stage races, as he has proven; he would make an awesome super domestique for a true tour contender._ If you can explain how 4th place is not contending. I cede my point. But that's impssible to explain away. You would need to exclude every rider from 4th on in any case or rider in that position. 

Not my comprehension but your skew on perception and lack of knowledge. Pair that with an inability to separate the subjective from the objective of performance. Then you've got your argument of the inane.

What you say definitely has some 20/20 hindsight methodology to it. If LL wasn't in 4th, who would be the worthy rider to hold that position? You slag down the race. How? You pull down the race dynamic by categorically saying who should be where and exactly what they should be doing according to your own comprehension alone. It's a race to be enjoyed for each persons individual effort. Agreed or not. I don't like Vino's team ethic in the least, but I do admit. I like watching him ride in a race. I certainly wouldn't say he shouldn't be in whichever position he's maintaining because of that.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

krankenstein said:


> I don't think you can for sure say that he sacrificed his own chances, it is just as if not more likely that Levi just didn't have the legs to make an attack. Levi had already demonstrated at this years Tour of Georgia that he is willing to put personal interest ahead of team interest, if a win is on offer. At the Brasstown Bald stage, Levi left Jani Brajkovic (discovery's GC leader in that race) whom he was supposed to protect, on the lower slopes of the final climb and main challenge of the stage- the Brasstown Bald, to pursue the win. So its hard to say clearly whether he choose to sacrifice his own chances or he was already on the limit. What we can say is that Levi clearly wants a TDF win or even a podium a lot more than a Tour of Georgia win, so what makes you think he would become so much more magnanimous all of a sudden at the TDF?


It's not magnanimous he can't match Contador but he can help him by in regard in Evans, though. Please se the first part of the last sentence.


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## krankenstein (Sep 12, 2006)

> Vino fails and it's ok. Vino has bad luck so he gets a pass.? It's not bad luck to end up with someone on your team who is exploding and over achieving beyond belief? Don't say it's not bad luck and LL should do more for Contador. If you would follow that logic. A rider like Vino should be doing more to help Kloden out and not go for stage victories. But I don't hear any harping about that. He's inspiring? How so? He doesn't try and damages his team's overall chance for success because he is totally out of contention.<

No, its not bad luck to have someone who is "exploding and over achieving beyond belief" on your team or someone else's team, its call being beaten in competition. As for Vino's bad luck, you could argue that he should have been more attentive with regards to crashes, but I think thats highly debatable.

>4th place equates nothing? okie dokie.<
Since we are taliking about winning the overall or at the very least podium place, in this context and this context only, 4th place is nothing. Last I checked there isn't a fourth step on the podium. Now if come Sunday Levi is on the podium, I will eat crow and post here to say you were right and I was wrong.

>He rode safe in the TT on wet roads. Bad idea? Ask Jan Ullrich about wet roads and TT's?<
I am not the only one who said he had a middling ride in the TT, cyclingnews called it a "disappointing ride", while Velonews (which had optimistically featured Levi on the cover of its tour guide with the tagline "an American in Paris", so they are levi supporters) called it a "modest ride". Even Levi himself in post race interviews said, "It was still wet and raining, but it wasn't that much of a factor," and "From the outset, I knew I didn't have that spark." Plus, kloden, Popovych, Gusev all crashed, but still beat Levi's time in the TT. Perhaps, just perhaps, Levi played it just a little too safe, don't you think?

>He kept saying in the first half of the tour, wait till the pyrenees, he's peaking for the pyrenees. Well, two of of the three pyreenee stages have come and gone, and all I have seen of Levi is one half hearted attack in yesterday's stage before the fireworks really flew, and a dig at the top past an already cracked Evans. So, when LL does try. It still isn't good enough. But it's great when other riders try and fail? Nice piece of duality there, mate.<
By writing "half hearted attack", its clear the implication is that he didn't really try, or try very hard. This is the kind of thing that prompted the comprehension comment, which was just a freindly jab, BTW.

>just? wow. I thought if a rider for 5th place on the Champs. It made fifth place almost as good as 1st?<
this sentence doesn't make any sense, I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

> If you can explain how 4th place is not contending. I cede my point. But that's impssible to explain away. You would need to exclude every rider from 4th on in any case or rider in that position. <
This part is purely my opinion and conjecture, i don't believe Levi will do better than 4th, therefore to me he is not a contender for the win. And I am not alone in that thinking, few people are giving Levi much of a chance of taking the whole thing at this point. Just like I never thought Carlos Sastre had a serious shot at the overall even though he finished 4th last year. Call that hindsight if you want, but as I freely admitted in my previous post, I don't have a crystal ball nor do I claim to have one, I never forsaw Chicken as a serious threat for the overall, I am willing to admit when I am wrong.

>If LL wasn't in 4th, who would be the worthy rider to hold that position? You slag down the race. How? You pull down the race dynamic by categorically saying who should be where and exactly what they should be doing according to your own comprehension alone. It's a race to be enjoyed for each persons individual effort. <
This is another part that could bring on the comprehension comment. I never said Levi should not be in fourth, in fact if you reread my posts, i think he is doing really well to be in fourth. Here is a direct quote from my first post " I think Levi is a good solid rider. Capable of top 10 results in GTs, and wins in weeklong stage races, as he has proven". My problem are with commentators who touts him as a possible winner and the people who buy into it and keep pushing him, because they need an American to be in the mix to stay interested in the race. But even if I did say Levi should not be in 4th but in Nth place, so what, we are only doing what sports fan have been doing all along, argue about the sports we love to do and watch. I don't see how that slag down the race in anyway, I am expressing my opinions because of my interest in the race and cycling, and you are doing the same. There is no insults or denigration of the race going on here.

>Agreed or not. I don't like Vino's team ethic in the least, but I do admit. I like watching him ride in a race.< 
Thats all I am saying, i like Vino because he is exciting to watch, while Levi is not so much. You support Levi for your own reasons, thats great, teh moreon. Just like guys argue about any other sports in bars, only because its the internet and the anonymity that goes along with it, people have a tendancy to end up taking godd natured pokes personally. So before this gets ugly, lets just enjoy the last week of this exciting race, I am just going to shake your hand here (metaphorically) and agree to disagree.


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## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

*uhh*



teh moreon said:


> Well, two of of the three pyreenee stages have come and gone, and all I have seen of Levi is one half hearted attack in yesterday's stage before the fireworks really flew, and a dig at the top past an already cracked Evans



Just a small point, but LL didn't drop Evans at the end; he dropped Sastre, evans was already well behind with kloden.


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## hfdcyclist (Jul 18, 2007)

So let me pose this to you guys. 

Do you think that its part of discoverys plan for Contador to keep attacking Rassmusen on these stages and wear him down for Levi to attack on the last day in the mountains? 

Just struck me as i was watching the replay of yesterdays stage. 

Personally I dont think that Levi has it in him and Discovery should turn Contador loose to just go for it and just demolish Rasmussen. 

Any thoughts?


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## krankenstein (Sep 12, 2006)

mtbykr said:


> teh moreon said:
> 
> 
> > Well, two of of the three pyreenee stages have come and gone, and all I have seen of Levi is one half hearted attack in yesterday's stage before the fireworks really flew, and a dig at the top past an already cracked Evans
> ...


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

Ahhhh, Vino is the man. Selfish stage victories while blood doping, inspiring. I wish all riders had his spirit. All hail the great Vino and his courage. What a freaking joke


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## RickyRitalin (Dec 16, 2005)

hfdcyclist said:


> So let me pose this to you guys.
> 
> Do you think that its part of discoverys plan for Contador to keep attacking Rassmusen on these stages and wear him down for Levi to attack on the last day in the mountains?
> 
> ...


I think you are perceptive. Phil and Paul kept commenting on how LL didn't look like he was riding that hard and letting AC just attack, attack, attack. It didn't look like LL even wanted to try to reel them back in, rather he covered Cadel Evans. I think Levi has a Brasstown Bald climb left in him for the TdF. It would be a good day to let it go tomorrow if JB will let him. That all being said, I think it is AC's _MJ_ to lose, given the depth of DC's team and the Chicken's history of TT.

I am very bummed out about Vino - why do so many racers do such stupid things? It ranks right up there with the stupiditiy that Michael Vick has demonstrated.


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## Timmons (Jul 6, 2005)

Either way, LL, AC the chicken, this is a great tour and I am enjoying it. Levi is riding like he should, and said he would. Can you win the TdF without attacking? I think not. We'll see.

Maybe LL is saving it all for tomorrow, as mentioned above, is AC working on cracking the Chicken? If so, we could be in for a doosy of a mountain stage. 

I was surprised that George and AC were both working with the Chicken to pull him away from the other contenders. I would think the gap that the Chicken has over LL is more of a concern than the gap that AC has over the field... however, minutes are minutes and when you have time to get them, I say take them and run. Imagine if AC hit the chicken earlier and was able to separate and descend with GH. I think that's the only thing that the Disco team missed. Either way, though, it's been great, and I am enjoying the whole disco squad.


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## JohnnyTooBad (Apr 5, 2004)

Timmons said:


> I was surprised that George and AC were both working with the Chicken to pull him away from the other contenders. I would think the gap that the Chicken has over LL is more of a concern than the gap that AC has over the field... however, minutes are minutes and when you have time to get them, I say take them and run. Imagine if AC hit the chicken earlier and was able to separate and descend with GH. I think that's the only thing that the Disco team missed. Either way, though, it's been great, and I am enjoying the whole disco squad.


When I was watching, I was thinking the same thing at first. Then, as the Chicken started to struggle to match AC, it occurred to me that, fine, let Rass gain a minute on the field today (stage 15), but if AC hurts him bad enough, and he can't recover as well as Levi, then there's a better chance of Levi taking a lot more than that minute back on the next mountain stage and in the TT. Just like what happened with Vino (even with the doping), where he went too hard on the TT to gain a minute, then lost huge time the next day because he couldn't recover. Levi's consistant, methodical (boring) cadence isn't very exciting, but it saves a lot of energy. He should be really fresh tomorrow. And hopefully, the chicken will lay an egg.

I also agree that AC should have gone sooner. I think Evans and Sastre would have tried to stay with him, since they were fresher at the time, and Levi would have stayed back. Then the others would have all folded and Levi would have ridden right by them. (well, maybe or maybe not)


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

ahhh the question of the day...

which GC contender cracks...?

Conty or Chicken?

I will go against, the grain...I predict Conty dies tomorrow... he went too hard.

Chicken wins.

If Chicken has 2 minutes going into the final TT, that may be enough as long as he stays upright.

Heck if I was his manager, I would just hand the man his normal bike for his TT, and tell him just don't crash.

LOL


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## genejockey (Apr 11, 2007)

Can you win the TdF without attacking? I seem to recall some big Spanish guy doing it five times in a row.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

*Lance is not riding for Disco any more!*

What are you people looking at? Not the same Tour I am watching! Not evey rider is an attacking climber or an unbeatable TTer. Very few of those can win a Tour, anyway. Pantani? How did he do in the TTs? Ullrich? How many mountain stages did he win? In the last 16 Tours, we have had only 14 legitimate winners -- _maybe_ -- and 12 of those were Big Mig and Lance.

Lance is not the model for a Tour winner: Lance was a post-cancer freak, the like of which we will never see again. Clean? Who knows. ...Who cares? 

Guys and girls, Levi is not going to attack! Nor does he need to!

Contador will attack, and he will either crack Rasmussen or he will not -- I am betting that he will, and that you will see the chicken fall like a feather in a vacuum.

Contador will also crack Evans, who will have no choice but to answer every attack, leaving Levi the clear road up the major climbs into second or third place on GC at his strong, steady pace. Some great climbers and champions have been able to do it this way.

Kloden is gone, maybe unjustly ...maybe not.

Levi will TT better in the flat, dry conditions next Saturday, passing Rasmussen, who will not TT as he did last Saturday.

Just how big a disappointment for Levi or for the Team would it be to have Levi on the podium??????

I foresee Contador in Yellow, and White, and Dots in Paris, a win for all time, and Levi on the second step. Who cares who is third? This has been a rather brilliant Tour for our little man of soft voice and no hair.

_Go, Levi!_ Your best Tour ever, and better than all of the other contenders.

...Then, they all get nicked for cheating -- all except Levi, who certainly rides like he is clean, and his goes down as _ the only name in the record books forever_, winner of every stage, every intermediate sprint, and every climb by default!

Beat _that!_


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## hfdcyclist (Jul 18, 2007)

I foresee Contador in Yellow, and White, and Dots in Paris, a win for all time, and Levi on the second step. 

I would absolutely love to see this happen!! I am pulling for Contador all the way!!!!

And as far as the referance to Lance, AC while not totally comparable to LA had the brain aneurism and has come back to ride a brilliant first TDF. 


:thumbsup: Go AC!!!! Turn him loose JB

Cant wait for tomorrow morning!!!


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## Val_Garou (Apr 30, 2002)

RickyRitalin said:


> I am very bummed out about Vino - why do so many racers do such stupid things?


Because they're the inspirational heroes who press every advantage they can because of what they might win rather than thinking about what they might have to loose. This helps them avoid the hallmarks of mediocrity, or some such. Haven't you been reading this thread?
.


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## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

*well*

In his interview this morning LL said his goal was to help contador get into yellow. I happen to think doing this will also greatly improve his overall GC standing


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## hfdcyclist (Jul 18, 2007)

mtbykr said:


> In his interview this morning LL said his goal was to help contador get into yellow. I happen to think doing this will also greatly improve his overall GC standing



Well, Looks like the kid couldnt hang on. Rasmussen rode brilliantly. There is still the timetrial to go. If we look back Cantador did a better TT than the chicken in the first TT. So maybe he can pull it out in the TT get the yellow and ride on to Paris!! 

Either way it ends. WAY TO GO DISCO!!!:thumbsup:


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## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

*well*



hfdcyclist said:


> Well, Looks like the kid couldnt hang on. Rasmussen rode brilliantly. There is still the timetrial to go. If we look back Cantador did a better TT than the chicken in the first TT. So maybe he can pull it out in the TT get the yellow and ride on to Paris!!
> 
> Either way it ends. WAY TO GO DISCO!!!:thumbsup:



Contidor did better in the first TT, but only by 37 seconds. This is much more of a true TT with no climbs, but asking that amount of time from contidor is a lot. If it was LL or cadel that far back then it's possible, but still tough.


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