# Inspired by «Doping Spreading to Amateur Cyclists» Report



## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm a fitness-focused road bike rider/commuter。 I've been riding pretty enthusiastically for the better part of 12 years。 I'm not the least bit interested in racing。 Never have been — nor do I intend to start。 It's simply not in my nature to want to compete in sports。 It _*is*_ in my nature, however, to be curious — _*experimental*_, even。

It is my curiosity-driven, _*experimental*_ nature that has led me to an online source of Erythropoietin [_inspired by this article_] — and to this forum。

Before I ask the questions I came here to ask, you need to know。。。

○ I am an adult。。。

○ I earn my own money。。。

○ I always ride solo。。。

○ I am not the least bit interested in racing/competing。。。

○ I am not the least bit interested in getting anybody's «_approval_»。 That is to say — I'm an independent thinker. If I have a mind to do something, *I will do it regardless of the opinions of strangers*。

○ My insurance is comprehensive and fully paid up。。。

Now. Here are my questions。。。

1。 Have you ever tried Erythropoietin?

2。 Is _the prevalence of the use of Erythropoietin reported by this article_ upsetting to you?

3。 Is the idea of the _*experimental*_ use of Erythropoietin by a non-competing, individual, road bike-riding, appropriately-insured adult upsetting to you?

4。 What is the problem [_if any_] with _*experimental*_ use of Erythropoietin by a non-competing, individual, road bike-riding, appropriately-insured adult?

5。 Have you ever experimented? With anything? When you were young like me?


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

*Effects on the side, so to speak.*

What are the odds someone would experience none of these side effects.

More common

Chest pain
fever
headache
increased blood pressure
shortness of breath
swelling of the face, fingers, ankles, feet, or lower legs
weight gain

Less common

Anxiety
blurred vision
change in skin color
change in vision
convulsions (seizures)
cough
dizziness or lightheadedness
double vision
fainting
fast heartbeat
migraine headache
nausea
pain or discomfort in the arms, jaw, back, or neck
pain, tenderness, or swelling of the foot or leg
pains in the chest, groin, or legs, especially calves of the legs
pale skin
partial or complete loss of vision in the eye
severe headaches of sudden onset
skin rash or hives
slurred speech
sore throat
sudden and severe inability to speak
sudden loss of coordination
sudden vision changes
sweating
temporary blindness
tenderness, pain, swelling, warmth, or skin discoloration at the injection site
unusual bleeding or bruising
unusual tiredness or weakness
vision problems
vomiting
weakness in the arm or leg on one side of the body, sudden and severe

More common

Abdominal or stomach pain and swelling
bone or joint pain, muscle aches, chills, shivering, or sweating
constipation
diarrhea
dizziness
general feeling of tiredness or weakness
heartburn or belching, acid or sour stomach
inability to sleep
itching or stinging at the injection site
loss of strength or energy
muscle pain or weakness
skin pain
stomach discomfort, upset, or pain
weight loss


Where do I sign up? ;O


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

You forgot one additional one, which could easily result from the _*experimental*_ use of EPO without medical supervision:

Death


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

And that's for authentic EPO. The first questions I would have about an online source would be what's really in the bottle, and where did it from ?


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## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

Here are my questions [*again*]。。。

1。 Have you ever tried Erythropoietin?

2。 Is _the prevalence of the use of Erythropoietin reported by this article_ upsetting to you?

3。 Is the idea of the _*experimental*_ use of Erythropoietin by a non-competing, individual, road bike-riding, appropriately-insured adult upsetting to you?

4。 What is the problem [_if any_] with _*experimental*_ use of Erythropoietin by a non-competing, individual, road bike-riding, appropriately-insured adult?

5。 Have you ever experimented? With anything? When you were young like me?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

?Middle-aged businessmen are winning amateur cycling races on EPO? | Sport | The Guardian



nirVELOvana said:


> Here are my questions [*again*]。。。
> 
> 1。 Have you ever tried Erythropoietin?
> 
> ...


I'm not big on taking drugs and competing but if you should feel the unstoppable need to dope up and take some strava KOMs (with a doctor's supervision), do it. EPO is not any more dangerous than orange juice.


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## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

nirVELOvana said:


> "。。。_I'm not the least bit interested in racing。 Never have been — nor do I intend to start。 *It's simply not in my nature to want to compete in sports*。。。
> 
> 。。。
> 
> ○ I am not the least bit interested in racing/*competing*_。。。"


。。。Sigh。。。


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

nirVELOvana said:


> Here are my questions [*again*]。。。
> 
> 1。 Have you ever tried Erythropoietin?
> 
> ...


The three previous answers you got went to your question number 4.

Is there a problem?


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## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

ibericb said:


> The three previous answers you got went to your question number 4.
> 
> Is there a problem?


The problem is this: _1 out of 5 *IS* bad_。


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

nirVELOvana said:


> The problem is this: _1 out of 5 *IS* bad_。


Welcome to the world of open polling.

Just to keep you amused:

1. NO
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. See previous answer.
5. Yes.

I will not further qualify or discuss the answers.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

nirVELOvana said:


> 1。 Have you ever tried Erythropoietin?
> 
> 2。 Is _the prevalence of the use of Erythropoietin reported by this article_ upsetting to you?
> 
> ...


1.) No. 
- Have I idly debated using PEDs that are not authorized or otherwise illegal? Yes. 
- Did I decide to use them? No
- Why not? The benefits (performance increase) did not outweigh (health/personal ethics).

2.) No. I have enough in my life already to be upset about. Masters racing is full of dopers, especially in areas of the country that have easy access to "youth clinics" or are close to the Mexico border. Even if they weren't doped, they'd still drop me. I feel sorry for people that feel the need to dope to win a race that very few care about. I do my best to maximize whatever natural ability I may have and leave it at that.

3/4.) No, but I think that individual is playing Russian Roulette with their long-term health and possibly their life. I would also question why they would need to dope if there was no competitive component involved.

5.) I experiment with all sorts of things to try to improve my performance. Beet juice was a painful experience for me. I also research it as much as possible before I do anything and consider the long and short-term implications on myself and those around me. Then again, I'm old with a family to support. When you're young, there are no consequences. Just ask all of those young Belgians in the '90s who had heart attacks from EPO use. Wait, they're dead. Bad example.

Look, you're going to get the same uniform answer here- it's a bad idea, don't do it. 99.99% of doctors will tell you the same thing, and the other .01% are not looking out for your health while they're taking your money. But then again, you're looking to use an extremely powerful drug without a doctor's supervision, so that can't be a bad thing, right?


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## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

*Kapisch?*



Alaska Mike said:


> "
> 3/4.) 。。。_I would also question why they would need to dope if there was no competitive component involved_。。。"





nirVELOvana said:


> "。。。_It *is* in my nature, however, to be curious — *experimental*, even_。
> 
> _It is my curiosity-driven, *experimental* nature_。。。"


Kapisch?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

It sounds like you've decided to experiment with EPO on your own, regardless of what anyone might say to the contrary. I say go for it. Natural selection will win in the end.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I am thinking the OP came across this: Drug Test | Fitness - Health and Fitness Advice | OutsideOnline.com


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

What you are contemplating is illegal and stupid. If that doesn't bother you, go right ahead and run you HCT up to Riis levels and beyond.

Capisce?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

not sure why this is in the doping forum in the first place. 
anyway 
1) no
2) not really. not surprising. I rather find it pathetic. 
3) Sounds to be slightly more retarded than most things starting with "hold my beer and watch this". Although there's usually some entertainment value for the bystanders by the latter. 
4) well the full list is given above but blood cloths would be the main problem. as evidence by a wide range of amateur athlete deaths in the early 90s (the ones "experimenting" since they could not afford the good programmes). 
5) too vague for anyone to meaningful answer.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

OP is a NARC, man!!! Hide your stash!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Your Doctor is not going to inject you with Epo. They give drugs for a diagnosis and "failure to zoom" is not on the list.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

The OP mentioned using one the many highly reputable online sites that sell EPO. I infer that means that the plan is to inject it himself and adjust the dosage "by feel", since there was no mention of a centrifuge or other analytical equipment. Sounds all very well-reasoned to me.

The real question is: who gets his bike afterwards?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Alaska Mike said:


> The OP mentioned using one the many highly reputable online sites that sell EPO. I infer that means that the plan is to inject it himself and adjust the dosage "by feel", since there was no mention of a centrifuge or other analytical equipment. Sounds all very well-reasoned to me.
> 
> The real question is: who gets his bike afterwards?


and who will do the nomination? 
Darwin Awards. Chlorinating The Gene Pool.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Alaska Mike said:


> The OP mentioned using one the many highly reputable online sites that sell EPO. I infer that means that the plan is to inject it himself and adjust the dosage "by feel", since there was no mention of a centrifuge or other analytical equipment. Sounds all very well-reasoned to me.
> 
> The real question is: who gets his bike afterwards?


and if the OP is really into experimentation there's always the possibility to include some long-haul red-eye flights


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## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

Being I'm old and it doesn't matter, I think it would be interesting to do a before and after. I still race so I won't. I know a joe Papp guy and he told me enough to know that if you tried it and then competed atmanymlevel, you wouldn't be alone.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Alaska Mike said:


> The OP mentioned using one the many highly reputable online sites that sell EPO. I infer that means that the plan is to inject it himself and adjust the dosage "by feel", since there was no mention of a centrifuge or other analytical equipment. Sounds all very well-reasoned to me.
> 
> The real question is: who gets his bike afterwards?


 I don't think you can buy the drug on-line. At least not in the US. I doubt you could get a prescription for it and also it needs to be refrigerated.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

BikeLayne said:


> I don't think you can buy the drug on-line. At least not in the US. I doubt you could get a prescription for it and also it needs to be refrigerated.


You certainly can't legally buy it online in the U.S. But "it" is available. I doubt, however, that any of those alternative market sources are U.S. pharma quality, if there is any EPO in them at all. No telling what you will be shooting if you go down that aisle.

If you do get real EPO, then you face all the challenges that comes with normal use. There have been a number of deaths that stemmed from illicit EPO use by folks who didn't really know what they were doing.


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## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

*Das SO dope, Yo!*



thighmaster said:


> “。。。_I know a joe Papp guy and he told me enough to know that if you tried it and then competed [at any level], *you wouldn't be alone*_。。。”





> “。。。_Just as lightweight carbon bike frames, high-tech clothing and nutrition supplements have *trickled down from the pros into the amateur ranks*, so, too has the use of many of these drugs, the report found_。。。”
> 
> [_more_]





> “。。。_"*doping in amateur cycling is becoming endemic
> *。 This was confirmed by riders, professionals, managers and anti-doping personnel"_。。。”
> 
> [_more_]





> “。。。_The *upsurge in doping among amateurs*, said the report, was "caused by。。。*a spread of knowledge in means and methods of administration*"_。。。”
> 
> [_more_]


 Das SO dope, Yo!
_Nam-myoho-renge-kyo。。。_

​


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

ibericb said:


> Welcome to the world of open trolling.
> 
> Just to keep you amused:
> 
> ...


FIFY. :wink:


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mpre53 said:


> FIFY. :wink:


Oooo .. nice catch. :thumbsup:


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

nirVELOvana said:


> I am not the least bit interested in getting anybody's «_approval_»。 That is to say — I'm an independent thinker. If I have a mind to do something, *I will do it regardless of the opinions of strangers*


I encourage you to take these drugs and keep us updated.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

A couple of questions or the OP.

1. If you have no interest in competing, then why are you interested in EPO for cycling?

2. What improvement, benefit or change, if any, are you seeking?


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## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

*Why did the man climb the mountain?*



ibericb said:


> “。。。_
> 1. If you have no interest in competing, then why are you interested in EPO for cycling?
> 
> 2. What improvement, benefit or change, if any, are you seeking?_”


1。


nirVELOvana said:


> “。。。_It *is* in my nature。。。to be curious — *experimental*。。。
> 
> 。。。my curiosity-driven, *experimental* nature。。。
> 
> ...


2。Experience is its own reward。


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Yep, the troll characterizations of others sure seem to fit.

Let's see, where is it .... ah, got it:

_nirVELOvana has now been successfully added to your ignore list. You will now be returned to where you were.._


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

As the now infamous Outside article case study illustrates, there are many doctors, particularly anti-aging ones, who are perfectly happy writing prescriptions and monitoring these sorts of practices. Here in the US, masters racing is rife with racers who have testosterone prescriptions (which are a lot more dangerous than EPO!). 

As for not being a racer, the overwhelming majority of PED use is among recreational athletes, especially body builder types. There's a good documentary about this, Bigger, Stronger, Faster. One thing the documentary makes a good point of is not to use the "it's unhealthy" reasoning to argue against PEDs because 1) in many cases, it might not be true and 2) it dilutes the ethical basis for not using them - because it's cheating. If the OP wants to use them outside of competition, go ahead. It's not going to be worse for him than the typical daily American diet....

what bothers amateur racers the most (at least among the US masters I know) is the lack of doping controls at the amateur level. When Rich Meeker tested positive a few years ago as a masters, it was the first time he had been tested despite dozens of state and national championships. Considering how much of USA cycling is funded off amateur fees, it's ridiculous.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> As the now infamous Outside article case study illustrates, there are many doctors, particularly anti-aging ones, who are perfectly happy writing prescriptions and monitoring these sorts of practices. Here in the US, masters racing is rife with racers who have testosterone prescriptions (which are a lot more dangerous than EPO!).
> 
> As for not being a racer, the overwhelming majority of PED use is among recreational athletes, especially body builder types. There's a good documentary about this, Bigger, Stronger, Faster. One thing the documentary makes a good point of is not to use the "it's unhealthy" reasoning to argue against PEDs because 1) in many cases, it might not be true and 2) it dilutes the ethical basis for not using them - because it's cheating. If the OP wants to use them outside of competition, go ahead. It's not going to be worse for him than the typical daily American diet....
> 
> what bothers amateur racers the most (at least among the US masters I know) is the lack of doping controls at the amateur level. When Rich Meeker tested positive a few years ago as a masters, it was the first time he had been tested despite dozens of state and national championships. Considering how much of USA cycling is funded off amateur fees, it's ridiculous.


For the most part I agree with your points. Outside of competition I don't have a problem with anyone using EPO, steroids, testosterone, or any "PED" for that matter provided they are using those substances with direct medical supervision, and it's done ethically and legally. That, however, is NOT what the OP was indicating he intended to do.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

nirVELOvana said:


> Here are my questions [*again*]。。。
> 
> 1。 Have you ever tried Erythropoietin?
> 
> ...


*No. Not with ANYTHING. I'm fortunate that I have a clear conscience in this regard.*


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## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

*You Adore Me*



ibericb said:


> “。。。_the troll characterizations of others sure seem to fit。。。”_


If being a gainfully-employed, independent-thinking adult with a curious, experimental nature makes me a troll — then I'll proudly be your troll all day long。

I was going to thank you for adding me to your ignore list. But something tells me you won't be able to restrain your personal attacks against me for very long。


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## nirVELOvana (Mar 6, 2014)

Peter P. said:


> “。。。_I'm curious as to how someone without a NEED for EPO could get it covered under insurance_。。。”


Thanks for your answers。 

You've jumped to the wrong conclusion on that one point though。 Or just didn't get the joke。

_My mention of insurance in this thread's opening post_ was an attempt at what's called «_black humor_»。 I was going to spell it out for you。 But that would then ruin the joke for those who *did* get it。


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

ibericb said:


> You certainly can't legally buy it online in the U.S. But "it" is available. I doubt, however, that any of those alternative market sources are U.S. pharma quality, if there is any EPO in them at all. No telling what you will be shooting if you go down that aisle.
> 
> If you do get real EPO, then you face all the challenges that comes with normal use. There have been a number of deaths that stemmed from illicit EPO use by folks who didn't really know what they were doing.



No doubt people buy it illegally. Hope they get caught.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

there are all kinds of anti aging clinics where they will hook you up with T and HGH. I doubt it would take much to talk a doctor in one of these places into adding EPO into the regimen


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