# carbon rim damage from gluing tape



## mrfox (Mar 18, 2013)

hi all!

I am new here, hoping to get some advice on an issue that has me worried.

A while ago I splurged and got a new set of tubular carbon wheels for my old aluminium road bike. I got the Reynolds DV46T and mounted tires using tufo gluing tape. I was under the impression that Reynolds actually recommends the tape and a lot of people have reported good results with Reynolds wheels and the tufo tape.

the wheels have been awesome, and the tires lasted forever, but this past weekend I finally got a flat on the rear wheel. (not a puncture; the connection from the valve stem to the tube started leaking. boo conti!)

with some patience and elbow grease I was able to pull the tire off the wheel. to my horror, I discovered that in one section of the tire, about 10 cm long, there was a small amount of carbon that came off with the tufo tape! it is only the very top layer of carbon, perhaps .1 mm.

the wheels are of course just past their warranty period, and I'm freaked out. did I do something wrong? should I not be using tape on these rims? what would have happened if the tire bed had separated during a fast descent...? is the damage just cosmetic or do I need to have this fixed? is this a manufacturing defect in the rim? if I ignore the damage, will it get worse the next time I remove a tire? should I attempt to fix this myself?

View attachment 277475
View attachment 277476


thanks y'all in advance for your help!
- Dave.

(I've sent a similar message to Reynolds but haven't heard back from them yet.)


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

just another good reason to never, ever, use tufo tape. that sucks.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Based on the picture.
If the rim was mine, I'd take a piece of sand paper to the area where the material was lost and "break the edge" of the bad spots.
Put on a new tire using glue and go for a ride. It looks like you lost a few mils of material, not optimum but it shouldn't be the end of the world structurally.
Might be a good time to pull the front tire as well (warming up the tire/rim would help - don't cook/bake/roast/grill).


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## mrfox (Mar 18, 2013)

thanks for the replies.


mikerp said:


> Based on the picture.
> If the rim was mine, I'd take a piece of sand paper to the area where the material was lost and "break the edge" of the bad spots.
> Put on a new tire using glue and go for a ride. It looks like you lost a few mils of material, not optimum but it shouldn't be the end of the world structurally.


yeah, the layer of material I lost is very thin, even running my fingernails over the edge I can barely feel a bump.
It's hard to see in the picture, but the carbon on the damaged spot is smooth and glossy and the fibers run longitudinally, whereas in the original layer the fibers are lateral and the surface is a little rougher.

I would assume the purpose of this design is to provide a good base for the glue, and I'm worried that the missing patch of surface might affect the adhesion of the glue on the rim and that the tire either won't stick well enough, which would be dangerous, or too well, causing further damage next time I change it.
am I too paranoid?


mikerp said:


> Might be a good time to pull the front tire as well (warming up the tire/rim would help - don't cook/bake/roast/grill).


I'll take a hairdryer to it and will be very, very careful. damn tufo.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

That's not good. I would be very hesitant to ride those wheels again.

To me, that's structure damage. It should be considered structural damage because of the possibility of the tire rolling over in high g-force corner (the tire might do this if the carbon layers de-laminate). Perhaps I would not consider the de-lamination to be structure damage if it was not served as a key layer sitting between the tape and the rest of the rim. But because of its position and function, it has to be regarded as a structure. 

Think about it, the force from braking or cornering is similar to the force of your hands trying to peel the tire. You're running a risk IMO.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

mrfox said:


> thanks for the replies.
> I'm worried that the missing patch of surface might affect the adhesion of the glue on the rim and that the tire either won't stick well enough,


Unless the surface is chalking the things are falling apart it should not be an issue.
I'm not sure where some of the new glue methods have come from, they really don't have tech merit.
This guy is open and to the point.
How to mount tubular tires: Part 1: w/ Mark Purdy + CyclingReporter.com - YouTube
The glue on the edge is more important than the glue in the bed.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> That's not good. I would be very hesitant to ride those wheels again.
> 
> To me, that's structure damage. It should be considered structural damage because of the possibility of the tire rolling over in high g-force corner (the tire might do this if the carbon layers de-laminate). Perhaps I would not consider the de-lamination to be structure damage if it was not served as a key layer sitting between the tape and the rest of the rim. But because of its position and function, it has to be regarded as a structure.
> 
> Think about it, the force from braking or cornering is similar to the force of your hands trying to peel the tire. You're running a risk IMO.


Reality is he found a cohesive failure of the carbon rim after the rim had been ridden for some time. The OP essentially did a paint peel test, and pulled off some fibers, based on his input he can barely feel the transition area. The area in question sees compressive loads from tire pressure. Structurally there is not that much going on there compared to nipple seats, and rim sidewalls. The outer layer of all the carbon products that are formed with internal pressure are the weakest as they are mainly binder material, the strength is in the core of the material. This rim bed issue is completely different than a scratch/ding in a structural tube on a frame.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Something interesting and peculiar I noticed is that it's easy to find Tufo's mounting/dismounting instructions for their tubular tape, but I couldn't find the warranty on their products. So, I took the liberty of emailing Tufo's customer support, and this is the conversation I had with their representative Vladimir:

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Hello.

I would like to know what your warranty is on the Tufo road tubular gluing tape and what situations it covers. Thank you.

R,

(name removed)

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(name removed),

the tape is only for use with Tufo tires, what else you need to know?

Vladimir Juhas

866-869-5285
Welcome to TUFO North America - Distributors of high quality tubeless bicycle tires.

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Vladimir,

My questions asked the following:

1. Length of warranty.
2. What does the warranty cover? (i.e. manufacturer defects, peeling off carbon from a carbon rim when removed, etc)

I thought this question was very straightforward. Furthermore, I'm a little disturbed that I could not easily find Tufo's warranty on its products by searching for it via Google and your own site.

R,

(name removed)

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(name removed),

you glue the tire with the tape, and it is good for the tire life, for every installation you have to use a new tape, manufacturer's defects are covered, none so far, that is pretty well it,

Vladimir Juhas

866-869-5285
Welcome to TUFO North America - Distributors of high quality tubeless bicycle tires.

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Vladimir,

So far I have received a partial answer to my question. What happens, for example, if I follow your website's instructions for dismounting a tire and the tape peels layers of carbon from my carbon rim? Or, for example, what happens if a properly mounted tire (again according to Tufo's instructions) rolls of the rim and results in rim/wheel damage?

R,

(name removed)

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in the first case, contact the rim manufacturer (it might be Zipp)
in the second case, you have to supply all the details and products involved,

Vladimir Juhas

866-869-5285
Welcome to TUFO North America - Distributors of high quality tubeless bicycle tires.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've never purchased a Tufo product, but now I know that I won't. The fact that I can't find their warranty on their own site or get a straight answer from a customer service rep is a very negative first impression. Plus, the fact that this "professional" has the grammar of a 1st grader rubs me the wrong way even more. It seems that we're at an impasse with Tufo, so contact your wheel manufacturer if you want to get more information.


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## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

Had this happen to some Zipp rims. Lesson learned, do not use tufo tape. In any case Zipp said it did not pose any structural problem, just sand it smooth with 400 grit, re-glue (properly) and youre good to go. They design the rim bed with extra plies of material to handle any sanding/scraping required to remove old glue. 

Also had a similar problem with panaracer which is a more aggressive glue than mastik or continental. I tend to stick to (sorry) the latter two now.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

i'd have to agree w/ the guys saying it's ok to ride. i'd ride it myself, for sure. it's a drage that it happened, but as dcl10 posted, there are many, many layers of carbon in that area so it should be no concern structurally.


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## VKW (Jul 26, 2009)

The peeled off layer could possibly just be a cosmetic layer and not strucutral. You could try clear coating the peeled off section then sanding it smooth.

Have you contacted the rim manufacturer on their thoughts?


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## mrfox (Mar 18, 2013)

thanks everyone for chiming in, especially SauronHimself for going trough the trouble of contacting tufo. I really appreciate the advice.



SauronHimself said:


> The fact that I can't find their warranty on their own site or get a straight answer from a customer service rep is a very negative first impression.


yep, and I figure that recovering my losses if I do send the wheel in for repair is going to be an uphill battle with tufo's warranty department. (I have not contacted them yet.)

my initial thought was to lightly sand the affected area and call it a day. I'm pretty relieved that most of you don't seem to think I'm crazy.



VKW said:


> You could try clear coating the peeled off section then sanding it smooth.


what would you recommend to do the coating? epoxy? I don't want to make matters worse by coating it with something that attacks the carbon or doesn't provide a good base for the glue.



VKW said:


> Have you contacted the rim manufacturer on their thoughts?


I have emailed the pictures to Reynolds but haven't yet heard back. I might give them a call tomorrow. 
unless they insist on inspecting and repairing the rim, I'll go with the sandpaper + glue (+ possibly clear coat) method.
I hope I can convince them to put a big "NO TAPE" warning sticker on the rims, so that others don't have to go trough the same misfortune!


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## VKW (Jul 26, 2009)

I was just thinking a light urethane clear coat to prevent any further delamination which seems likely to happen if you don't seal the edges where it delaminated. I suppose epoxy would do the job as well. Not sure how either affect glue adhesion. I'd say hold off until you hear from tufo or Reynolds on any warranties they may offer. Repairing on your own may void it. If they won't warranty, Reynolds could recommend a repair method if they are helpful.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

the 'tufo warranty department'? that's pretty funny...Vlad pretty much _is_ tufo in north america. as you've found out, he's not the most friendly guy. from my experience w/ him, i wouldn't expect him to acknowledge anything ever happened, much less do something about it. 
if you sand the edges of the area down and use glue from now on you should be fine. i've had Edge rims lose pieces of carbon like that from glued tires being removed, i am still using those rims.


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## juanacity (Jul 11, 2012)

It looks like there were some other small strips of carbon layer that came off at other places like around the spoke holes? 

I had some small strips that came off an essentially brand new Shimano rim. I was instructed to simply sand down any loose ends. This came directly from a Shimano technical rep. 

You're patch looks much larger, but I don't know why it should be much more concerning thin strips if its not too deep.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

mrfox said:


> what would you recommend to do the coating? epoxy? I don't want to make matters worse by coating it with something that attacks the carbon or doesn't provide a good base for the glue.


No reason to coat it with anything, as mentioned sand it/wipe it down to remove dust/glue it.
A smooth surface will offer less adhesion a rough surface will offer more for the glue to stick to. A "real" materials guy would laugh at the thought of using 400 grit as it won't do much (folks wet sand with 400 grit to knock down orange peel prior to clear coating). I'd break any edges with something in the 200's and hit the whole surface with 120 prior to gluing.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

VKW said:


> I was just thinking a light urethane clear coat to prevent any further delamination which seems likely to happen if you don't seal the edges where it delaminated. I suppose epoxy would do the job as well. Not sure how either affect glue adhesion. I'd say hold off until you hear from tufo or Reynolds on any warranties they may offer. Repairing on your own may void it. If they won't warranty, Reynolds could recommend a repair method if they are helpful.


If the material showed any wicking properties from the loss of the fibers (I doubt it does as it's a surface loss not a cross cut) the only thing I'd bother putting on it would be Eastman 910 (superglue) to seal it. Epoxies and Urethane are filled with solids not what you are looking for.


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## JimP (Dec 18, 2001)

mrfox said:


> the connection from the valve stem to the tube started leaking. boo conti!)


I had that problem with Tufo tires many years ago when I tried them. I was told that the tire was squirming back and forth causing the valve stem leak because of a poor glue job. That was almost 20 years ago and since then I have been using Conti tires without any problems and my glue job has stayed the same.


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## mrfox (Mar 18, 2013)

I got an email response from Reynolds and followed up with a phone call, and their representative (Heather Elliott) essentially confirmed what most of you already told me: structurally, this should not be a problem. they as well recommended to smooth the transition and rough up the surface with sandpaper, and recommended against coating it with anything.

they would inspect the wheel if I send it in and replace the rim if necessary, the cost of which would be $450 since I'm out of warranty. I won't do that but thought I'd provide the data point for anyone interested. 

as far as the tufo tape goes, their response was "You can use the tufo tape but it's not something we really ever use." she did stress though that using the tape does *not* void the warranty.

I got a pretty positive impression from Reynolds customer service, btw. easy to get in touch with someone who seems to know their products. and I sure am glad I don't have to deal with tufo's warranty department (a.k.a Vlad  ).

once again, thanks to everyone who chimed in, really appreciate all the help.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Glad to see that you will be using the rims again.


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## JChasse (Sep 16, 2005)

After reading all of this, I'm fairly impressed with Reynolds, and I won't use a TUFO product again. There's the power of the interwebz for ya. Thanks again Al.


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## GGW (Jul 13, 2008)

If you decide to stay with tape and to prevent this to happen again , you can apply a coat of glue on the rim before the tufo tape .The glue will peel off instead of the rims . I had not try this i prefer using glue . A freind of me use once the tape and his tubular was turning slowly on the side . You'r valve problem might not come from Conti.Good luck


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## Raymond8Pistons (Jun 24, 2002)

*Tufo tape*

I use Tufo tape on carbon rims, wood rims and aluminum rims. I apply two thin coats of glue to the tire and the rim before adding the Tufo tape. I like the ability to align the tire with the rim before pulling the protective strip away from underneath the tire. I have never had a problem using the product in this way. I also use Veloflex, Vittoria and other tubulars without a problem. I believe yje reason Tufo recommends only using Tufo tires with their tape is that other tires may have residue from the manufacturing process that may interfere with the tape's ability to adhere to the base tape of the tire. Tufo tires do not have this problem. Using a few coats of glue solves this problem and allows for a nice installation without any cleaning after the installation.


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## CXinME (Oct 12, 2004)

This is happened to me with mastik one as well.

There are thousands of carbon layers and it is nothing to worry about when it occurs at the base. If layers come of the side wall you should worry.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

CXinME said:


> This is happened to me with mastik one as well.
> 
> *There are thousands of carbon layers* and it is nothing to worry about when it occurs at the base. If layers come of the side wall you should worry.


i think you're somewhat confused about carbon rim construction. 'thousands' of layers? not even close.


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## VKW (Jul 26, 2009)

Wow. Yeah more like 6-15 layers depending on where and how thin the wall is. Commonly used layers are about .010" thick. .005" thick layers can also be common. I think you are thinking about filaments. A layer usually consists of several tows consisting of several thousand filament strands. When you see 3k, 5k, 12k it means the number of filaments per tow. When you see 5 harness, 8 harness it means number of tows per weave. Unidirectional has no weave. Plain weave is symetric in weave. It's more likely to delaminate a layer than a filament.


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