# S-works shoes causing knee pain?



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

I just got those new 2008 s-works shoes. They're the best fitting, most comfortable and most lightweight shoe that I have ever bought. The construction is awesome.

*Problem*: 
I've got a lot of throbbing medial knee pain that occurs after the ride. It is pronounced.

The pedals/cleats are the same. I switch back to my Shimano 215 shoes and in a day the knee pain goes away. What gives? I figure it's that varus tilt built into the sole of the Specialized shoe torquing my knee sideways.
I bought their sole/wedge kit to use their valgus wedge which neutralizes the tilt and puts it level ---so they claim. My pedal stroke is normal with my Shimano shoes. I don't pronate or supinate. I figure screwing around with your biomechanics when there in no existing problem is not the way to go.
Has anyone else experienced this problem? If I can't fix it, these shoes are going on ebay.


----------



## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

If you have the insoles with shims, try putting one of the black/dark grey shims under the insole. That will reverse the tilt and flatten the shoe. The white shims will increase the tilt.

For what it's worth my wife tried the 07 S-works shoes and hated them. She stated they felt like blanks on the bottom of her feet and went back to her Sidi's...

BTW if they don't work try talking to your dealer, they may take them back...Our's did with my wife's...


----------



## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

*Why not :*

1) Go visit a BG Fit Specialist to have the shoes "Fit" to you feet.

Or 

2) Just put the insoles from you Shimano's into your S-Works shoes????? :thumbsup:


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

Yes...
I bought the blue insoles from Specialized to go with these shoes. These insoles fit my feet like a glove. I have also used these blue ones in my shimano shoes and they are perfect. No problems. What I have NOT done yet is try the negative shims ( grey ) in my Specialized shoes to flatten the sole and erase the tilt. I will do that and see if I ache tonight after my 80 mile ride. My knee pains are along the sides of the knees. If I stand on the ground and raise the inside of my forefoot and press down with my body weight, my knee is tilted outward a bit and that's when the pain fires away on the medials sides of the patella... I figure from the side loads due to the inside of my forefoot being twisted upwards. It's really too bad as I really like the fit and design of these shoes. 
I guess I represent a small percentage of those riders where the BG sole actually creates problems rather than prevents them.


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

rbart4506 said:


> For what it's worth my wife tried the 07 S-works shoes and hated them. She stated they felt like blanks on the bottom of her feet and went back to her Sidi's...
> 
> ..



I not sure what you meant by "blanks" on the bottom of her feet.


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

DMFT said:


> 1) Go visit a BG Fit Specialist to have the shoes "Fit" to you feet.
> 
> Or
> 
> 2) Just put the insoles from you Shimano's into your S-Works shoes????? :thumbsup:


I think visiting a BG fitter is a good idea.


----------



## RobertBGfitter (Jan 10, 2008)

One thing that I am thinking is that you have a Valgus forefoot issue. The BG shoes are made to address the issue of Varus so to combat this they should be fitted by a BG Fit Specialist. The reason for your feel of difference is that the S-Works shoes have 1.5 mm of varus wedge in them and the Shimano ones do not.

Robert Driskell
Advanced BG Fit Technician
Competition Sports Gulfport MS


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

RobertBGfitter said:


> One thing that I am thinking is that you have a Valgus forefoot issue. The BG shoes are made to address the issue of Varus so to combat this they should be fitted by a BG Fit Specialist. The reason for your feel of difference is that the S-Works shoes have 1.5 mm of varus wedge in them and the Shimano ones do not.
> 
> Robert Driskell
> Advanced BG Fit Technician
> Competition Sports Gulfport MS




Exactly. 
Here's an update to my post.

I put the Valgus 1.5 mm wedge in my shoe. This made the sole level again just like any other other shoe. Next I rode them for the last 2 days for 198 miles total over varying terrain from rollies to steep 5 mile grades of 8 percent. ( I love to ride ). 

All the knee pains went away and I am normal again. 

I think it's the best designed shoe ever. It's light, pretty stiff, and those blue footbeds are really supportive. The new boa enclosure is fantastic. 

My only gripe is that the sole should be level ( for a neutral starting point ) and not canted outward. Specialized should control the varus/valgus thing with their shims and not have it built into the sole ( where it's permanent ) . Without the shim kit ( which I had to spend another $50 to obtain as was only available with the footbed kit ) , I would still be pedaling slightly bowlegged and still have pain. It's weird to have to add a shim to get it level. I have encountered many racers at my level of training who won't touch that shoe due to the fact their knees hurt just like mine. They don't want to mess with the shim thing either as their stroke is perfect also. However, they think the Specialized last is great.

When it's all said and done, it's just fine..but it did cost me pain to achieve it. Riders need to be careful when they start messing with their pedal biomechanics. You can do a lot of damage if not careful. I have spoken to 5 well known cyclists ( in the last week ) who won't ride Specialized for this reason.

I am not of fan of spending $300 for shoes, another $50 for footbeds and still another $200 for a Specialized fit ( yes $200 to look at your pedal stroke ) . That's what the LBS wanted. That's $550 for a pair a shoes in the end. 

My personal opinion to Specialized: Make the soles level ( normal ) and ride them. If you have discomfort, then go back to the local shop and pay them for an hour of time to look at your stroke and mess with the shims--but not $200. This marketing has detoured sales away from Specialized as I have seen. In the pelotons' I don't see a large number of the Specialized shoes. Many cyclists have spent years working on their stroke. Don't build in a permanent canting sole.


----------



## RobertBGfitter (Jan 10, 2008)

The S Works shoes come with the footbeds as well as the Pro model. The reasoning behind BG shoes having 1.5mm of varius wedge built into the shoes is that 80% of cyclist out there have some form of varus in the forefoot. Myself I have a Tibial leg length discrepancy in my left leg and therefore use a lift under my left cleat. I use the ++( Blue) footbeds and 1 1.5mm varus shim in my right shoe. Yes I can see where the price is high again I cannot speak for other shops but here at my shop if someone buys S-Works shoes I give an S-Works fit. As for riders in the peloton just look at the ones with problems as you may not see them in the shoes but I do know that many have the footbeds in their shoes. I have had the pleasure of going thru 2 courses taught by Dr.Andy Pruitt and I have been fitting for 15 years. Most of my clients come to me because they have a problem so they don't mind the expense. The philosphy of BG is to improve on the Shoulder-Hip-Knee-Foot alignment. It does work By the way the Shims are sold seperately for 30.00. Does your LBS have a Certified BG fitter there? Or an Advanced BG Fitter?


----------



## RioFastRacer (Oct 22, 2007)

I just bought that very same shoe today. 2008 S-Works (white). I went for a quick 20 mile ride and I felt no pain afterwards. Albeit it was only 20 miles but this weekend, I'll put an 80 miler in and post if I have any problems. I doubt it though b/c my 06 Carbon Pro shoes from Specialized have that same wedge and fit and performed great with no pain right out of the box.


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

RobertBGfitter said:


> The S Works shoes come with the footbeds as well as the Pro model. The reasoning behind BG shoes having 1.5mm of varius wedge built into the shoes is that 80% of cyclist out there have some form of varus in the forefoot. Myself I have a Tibial leg length discrepancy in my left leg and therefore use a lift under my left cleat. I use the ++( Blue) footbeds and 1 1.5mm varus shim in my right shoe. Yes I can see where the price is high again I cannot speak for other shops but here at my shop if someone buys S-Works shoes I give an S-Works fit. As for riders in the peloton just look at the ones with problems as you may not see them in the shoes but I do know that many have the footbeds in their shoes. I have had the pleasure of going thru 2 courses taught by Dr.Andy Pruitt and I have been fitting for 15 years. Most of my clients come to me because they have a problem so they don't mind the expense. The philosphy of BG is to improve on the Shoulder-Hip-Knee-Foot alignment. It does work By the way the Shims are sold seperately for 30.00. Does your LBS have a Certified BG fitter there? Or an Advanced BG Fitter?



That makes sense...however, there must be a lot in the 20% rider catagory where the canted sole raises havok since I have run into more than a few. That's a huge margin for error. If you ride 20 miles in a day, you'll be okay most likely. When you ride 125 miles a day, then you're gonna have issues like me. Just look at the pro's sponsored by Specialized. Many won't touch this shoe. This is not because the shoe is bad, on the contrary, it's one of the finest out. It is because they ride so much, they know what NOT to mess with. 

I don't know what type of fitter my bike shop is. I just heard them say $200 to check out my legs and was turned off by that. I just came in from another fast 50 miles this evening---with the 1.5mm VALGUS ( dark grey) shims under the blue insoles. I feel great. My knees don't ache. With a 400-500 mile a week rider ( my case ), the rider is going to know what doesn't work right. We should listen to our bodies for tell tales. The canted shim thing is a good idea for those that need it---but Specialized shouldn't force the issue permanently in their sole. Don't go re-inventing the wheel when you can improve upon others' great designs.

I understand why riders may come to you for your professional help IF there's a problem as you stated. That's an invaluble service offered worth much more than the price of a fitting. I would do the same. But what about when the rider has no problems at all? Should Specialized say that this shoe is for problematic riders only? --Ignoring the 20% that need to re-configure the sole?

Trust me, if Specialized made their sole flat to begin with and then added their canting options by choice to address potential problems with a Specialized fitter, this shoe would have the market cornered. In sales, you want to market to as many as you can. The 20% of riders ( like me ) who have problems with this canted sole and need to reconfigure a new product so we can be pain free when there were no problems from the start, is not a good sign. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. 

All this is my personal opinion. Afterall, I am just a bike rider and not a shoe designer.


----------



## crashley6 (Nov 15, 2005)

So only 20% that don't like the shoe with the varus wedge, need to adjust the shoe to make it fit. So that makes 80% that take the shoe off the shelf and it is perfect. I don't see the problem with that. It seems you are upset because you are part of the 20% that needs adjustments to make the shoe fit right.


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

crashley6 said:


> So only 20% that don't like the shoe with the varus wedge, need to adjust the shoe to make it fit. So that makes 80% that take the shoe off the shelf and it is perfect. I don't see the problem with that. It seems you are upset because you are part of the 20% that needs adjustments to make the shoe fit right.


Yes..that's right. 1/5 of riders who buy these shoes need to mess with them to make them fit right..


----------



## jjender (Aug 3, 2007)

I don't buy, for example, SIDI because don't fit OK to me or because they aren't wide.I wear Specialized because they fit.
If they don't fit, don't buy them.


----------



## RioFastRacer (Oct 22, 2007)

skygodmatt said:


> Yes..that's right. 1/5 of riders who buy these shoes need to mess with them to make them fit right..


UPDATE: I've done several 80+ mile rides along with several shorter ones on my new S-Works 08 Shoe. No problems. I love them!!

skygodmatt, are you sure 1/5 of riders have problems with this shoe? The Specialized Dealer down here said he saw and experienced problems from only 2 out every 10 riders with this shoe.


----------



## jjender (Aug 3, 2007)

1/5 is the same than 2/10...


----------



## RioFastRacer (Oct 22, 2007)

My bad, he meant only 4 out of 20.


----------



## raoulm (Mar 31, 2008)

I recently purchased Specialized s-works '08 road shoe and stepped out of Carnac M5; I experience pain which builds from about 2hrs on the bike on the top inside of my foot, just ahead and below my ankle - I currently have the red + insole which came with the shoes; I went to the dealer who put me on the heat sensitive foot pads and recommended the blue ++ insoles - ever had this problem before?


----------

