# I guess Giant makes Trek



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

Check this out: 

A bunch of workers over in Taiwan dressed in Giant shirts in the Giant factory are making Trek bicycles. Check it out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/inmotionasia/sets/72157617186384395/

I didn't know that. 
Comments?


----------



## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Giant, is ummm.... giant. Giant makes everything. Pretty sure they make Specialized too. Giant is one of only I think three companies that actually make their own carbon fiber. Giant knows some stuff others don't because they have more access. That's why the TCR is so badass. 
If I were in the market for a CF bike, Giant would be my first choice. Their prices are totally reasonable too. Look and Colnago the only others on my list.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Giant has been making portions of the Trek line since the late '80s.

Trek now only makes Treks that sell for $4000 or more.


----------



## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

One guy I ran into at the local hill was really pushin' the pace with his Trek to the point he was coughing. He saw me rollin' on my TCR. He hatin'.


----------



## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

T K said:


> Giant, is ummm.... giant. Giant makes everything. Pretty sure they make Specialized too. Giant is one of only I think three companies that actually make their own carbon fiber. Giant knows some stuff others don't because they have more access. That's why the TCR is so badass.
> If I were in the market for a CF bike, Giant would be my first choice. Their prices are totally reasonable too. Look and Colnago the only others on my list.


Three companies weave their own carbon fibre. Giant, Time and now BMC. Everyone else buys it in either in pre-preg sheet form or ready-made tubes.


----------



## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

Ventruck said:


> One guy I ran into at the local hill was really pushin' the pace with his Trek to the point he was coughing. He saw me rollin' on my TCR. He hatin'.


That has to do more with your superior level of fitness than yo Giant


----------



## vhk30 (Sep 21, 2009)

http://www.bmc-racing.com/int-de/impec/factory-tour.html


----------



## rcekstrom (Oct 4, 2008)

Could it be that they don't actually make the frames, they just to the components and packaging? Like an outsource kind of thing?


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

skygodmatt said:


> Check this out:
> 
> A bunch of workers over in Taiwan dressed in Giant shirts in the Giant factory are making Trek bicycles. Check it out:
> 
> ...


I thought everyone knew that.

Giant used to make Schwinns back in the day, too.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

rcekstrom said:


> Could it be that they don't actually make the frames, they just to the components and packaging? Like an outsource kind of thing?


No. Giant builds the entire bike. For many, many bike brands.


----------



## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

This is a good reason to check your crank arms for proper torque.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/inmotionasia/3471637505/in/set-72157617186384395/


----------



## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

T K said:


> Giant, is ummm.... giant. Giant makes everything. Pretty sure they make Specialized too. Giant is one of only I think three companies that actually make their own carbon fiber. Giant knows some stuff others don't because they have more access. That's why the TCR is so badass.
> If I were in the market for a CF bike, Giant would be my first choice. Their prices are totally reasonable too. Look and Colnago the only others on my list.


I believe Merida makes Specialized, I also recall that they are part owners of Specialized.


----------



## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Giant doesn't make Specialized. Merida makes Specialized, and owns a large portion of the company.

The only Treks that are made here (in the US) are the very high end mountain bikes, and the 5.2 and above road frmaes.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

backinthesaddle said:


> Giant doesn't make Specialized. Merida makes Specialized, and owns a large portion of the company.
> 
> The only Treks that are made here (in the US) are the very high end mountain bikes, and the 5.2 and above road frmaes.


Giant makes *some* of the Specialized bikes, as does Ideal. Majority, of course, are made by Merida.


----------



## shudson16 (Mar 20, 2009)

The only Treks that are made here (in the US) are the very high end mountain bikes, and the 5.2 and above road frmaes.[/QUOTE]

almost right...... all madones under the 6 series are made of TCT carbon (Trek Carbon Technology, made in China). The 6 series and Project One series are OCLV, made in Waterloo,Wis.


----------



## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I learned of this 10 years ago.


----------



## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I learned of this 10 years ago.


Dog years?


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I learned of this 10 years ago.


So you were also late learning it.


----------



## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

why do you think they are called 'giant'?


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

FatTireFred said:


> why do you think they are called 'giant'?


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049261/


----------



## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

Giant also builds the B-2. The U.S government however will have you know otherwise.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

None of this comes as a surprise. Giant is a Taiwanese company- like Merida, Martec,etc. The only difference is that (unlike the other Asian bike companies) they actually market bikes under their own name. The thing that gets them respect from cyclists is that Giant was ridden by a Pro-Tour team. Not to discredit Giant, but they are just another Taiwanese company that makes great bikes for big name brands. The fact they build for Trek comes as no surprise since they were building for Trek back in the late 1990's- early 2000's. They are the largest bike company in the world and I'm not surprised that they are involved with military stuff. They're a good company.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

terbennett said:


> None of this comes as a surprise. Giant is a Taiwanese company- like Merida, Martec,etc. The only difference is that (unlike the other Asian bike companies) they actually market bikes under their own name. The thing that gets them respect from cyclists is that Giant was ridden by a Pro-Tour team. Not to discredit Giant, but they are just another Taiwanese company that makes great bikes for big name brands. The fact they build for Trek comes as no surprise since they were building for Trek back in the late 1990's- early 2000's. They are the largest bike company in the world and I'm not surprised that they are involved with military stuff. They're a good company.


'80s, not '90s. This is a rather old arrangement.


----------



## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

Giant made bikes for other companies, like Trek, for years before starting their own brand. They were early adopters of compact frames, which I think Mike Burrows designed for them (he designed Boardman's Lotus superbike). They outfitted the mighty Once cycling team with Giant compacts, revolutionary at the time in the pro ranks.


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

frdfandc said:


> This is a good reason to check your crank arms for proper torque.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/inmotionasia/3471637505/in/set-72157617186384395/


Appears to be pneumatic - but that's likely not a Harbor Freight impact wrench. Pneumatic tools are heavily used in assembly operations, especially in applications above 40 Nm, which this would be. Many of the industrial quality pneumatic tools are pretty highly accurate, some up to +/-7.5%. And because of the inherent design, depending on the user's ability they can be more accurate than the best non-clutched torque wrench or electric assembly tool.


----------



## ms6073 (Jul 7, 2005)

terbennett said:


> None of this comes as a surprise. Giant is a Taiwanese company- like Merida, Martec,etc.


Additionally, Giant has probably the broadest depth of knowledge in composite contrcution techniques. My understanding is Giant is a subsidiary of a parent company who's primary business since the mid-80's was composite aerospace assemblies which are used in the construction of aircraft at Airbus, Boeing, and Embraer.


----------



## Tino Chiappelli (Apr 25, 2005)

I don't know how recent those pictures are, but I can say that as of a few months ago, Trek has moved a substantial amount of their overseas production to Martec, another Asian manufacturer...


----------



## Paul1PA (Sep 16, 2006)

Back in the early 2000's, Giant also pioneered the use of hydroformed tube shapes on aluminum bicycle frames. IMO, their technical and manufacturing prowess is damn impressive!


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> '80s, not '90s. This is a rather old arrangement.


You're right... my mistake.


----------



## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Does Giant make good Treks?


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

backinthesaddle said:


> Giant doesn't make Specialized. Merida makes Specialized, and owns a large portion of the company.
> 
> The only Treks that are made here (in the US) are the very high end mountain bikes, and the 5.2 and above road frmaes.


Correction: As of 2010, all 5 Series are no longer OCLV; They are now made of TCT carbon in Asia. Only the 6 series is now made of OCLV.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

veloduffer said:


> Giant made bikes for other companies, like Trek, for years before starting their own brand. They were early adopters of compact frames, which I think Mike Burrows designed for them (he designed Boardman's Lotus superbike). They outfitted the mighty Once cycling team with Giant compacts, revolutionary at the time in the pro ranks.


Giant was also making Treks when they were marketing their own brand. I remember a friend of mine hed a Giant road bike back when I was in high school in the late 80's. BTW, Mike Burrows designed Giants were some of the best looking designs I've ever seen IMO. In fact, I still want one of his aero seatposts that Giants used to have.


----------



## acckids (Jan 2, 2003)

Mel Erickson said:


> Does Giant make good Treks?



Thanks for the chuckle


----------



## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

WheresWaldo said:


> I believe Merida makes Specialized, I also recall that they are part owners of Specialized.


But back in the day, Giant made a lot of Specialized's bikes. My Sirrus is probably a Giant frame, very similar to the bike Giant was putting out under their own name at the time. 

Once Merida bought a chuink of Specialized, i'm sure they now do all of the building for them.


----------



## ApplemanBicycles (Nov 25, 2010)

*Where's the juice?*



vhk30 said:


> http://www.bmc-racing.com/int-de/impec/factory-tour.html


Wow... that is a lot of robot! Pretty cool link, but they leave out all of the juicy parts!

Some carbon fiber bikes are made by hand... right here in the USA using American made materials. There are 101 ways to build a bike.


----------



## Nick09 (Aug 1, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, where do the other companies get their carbon? Do they buy it from from the three main (or Giant if you will) companies producing it for their own bicycles, or is it just generic carbon and they slap a fancy name on it?


----------



## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

PlatyPius said:


> I thought everyone knew that.
> 
> Giant used to make Schwinns back in the day, too.


+ 1. I heard the story going back into at least the late 90's. I thought it was sort of a given, but now we have "Landis" type evidence.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Nick09 said:


> Just out of curiosity, where do the other companies get their carbon? Do they buy it from from the three main (or Giant if you will) companies producing it for their own bicycles, or is it just generic carbon and they slap a fancy name on it?


An Asian company that's making carbon fiber frames for everyone else isn't necessarily making a generic carbon frame. Most of the companies are involved in some way witht he manufacturing of their frames- whether it's design or actual weave patterns. Many companies have a design (usually a prototype) that they give to any number of Asian builders. The Asian builders then make the frames to the specs that the customer wants. Felt, Jamis, Fuji, Bianchi, etc all do this with many (or all) of their higher end offerings. Trek even does that with their TCT offerings. In other words, those Asian built frames still do meet their standards since those companies were the ones who designed them. It may not have been built by them but it meets their standards. Now there are many companies that do buy generic frames (many of which are still high quality), but there are just as many that don't.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

terbennett said:


> An Asian company that's making carbon fiber frames for everyone else isn't necessarily making a generic carbon frame. Most of the companies are involved in some way witht he manufacturing of their frames- whether it's design or actual weave patterns. Many companies have a design (usually a prototype) that they give to any number of Asian builders. The Asian builders then make the frames to the specs that the customer wants. Felt, Jamis, Fuji, Bianchi, etc all do this with many (or all) of their higher end offerings. Trek even does that with their TCT offerings. In other words, those Asian built frames still do meet their standards since those companies were the ones who designed them. It may not have been built by them but it meets their standards. Now there are many companies that do buy generic frames (many of which are still high quality), but there are just as many that don't.


I think what he meant was that "TCT" isn't a special carbon fiber - it is a fiber spec and layup schedule. The actual fiber is basic stuff and may come from a few sources, interchangeably.


----------



## Nick09 (Aug 1, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> I think what he meant was that "TCT" isn't a special carbon fiber - it is a fiber spec and layup schedule. The actual fiber is basic stuff and may come from a few sources, interchangeably.


Yea, sorry for the confusing wording. What I meant was, is the TCT or OCLV from Trek, F-770, F-440, C4-C10 from Fuji, ect... actually specially made carbon fiber? And who makes the carbon for fuji, trek, specialized, etc... If there are only three companies that make their own carbon fiber, where do all of the other companies get their materials? In other words, does Giant make carbon fiber for companies that it does not own? From what I understand from rx-79g the actual fiber isn't special, but the tecnique that is used to make the frame is where all of the different names/ qualities come from???


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Nick09 said:


> Yea, sorry for the confusing wording. What I meant was, is the TCT or OCLV from Trek, F-770, F-440, C4-C10 from Fuji, ect... actually specially made carbon fiber? And who makes the carbon for fuji, trek, specialized, etc... If there are only three companies that make their own carbon fiber, where do all of the other companies get their materials? In other words, does Giant make carbon fiber for companies that it does not own? From what I understand from rx-79g the actual fiber isn't special, but the tecnique that is used to make the frame is where all of the different names/ qualities come from???


Carbon fiber are strands of graphite like stuff that are cooked until they get pretty skinny and dense. "High modulus" fibers are smaller, lighter and a bit less ductile than lower modulus, but what constitutes "high" vs. "medium" seems to be in the hands of marketing people. 

After the fibers are made they are woven (or not) into some useful form - and the structural stuff is usually just straight with no crossweave. (The woven stuff goes on the outside of the tubes to look pretty.) Then these different fabrics are layered in a predetermined schedule - you can't really use all high modulus because the tubes would be light, strong and too fragile - so a mix of different modulus fabric builds in strength and durability. Sometimes other fibers are used, like boron, polyethyline, aramid or glass, to make up for the high modulus stuff. Then the epoxy is cured.

The parts that are made this way are then assembled - again, different companies have different ways of forming parts and making a frame from them. This is another round of epoxy bonding. They also take pride in these methods and are part of the funny name they use.

So a term like "OCLV" is a marketing catch-all that involves fiber size and type, weave, layering schedule, shape and final assembly method. The actual fibers used don't really matter, as long as they are the modulus specified and the weave is correct. There are probably only so many fiber makers, but it really doesn't matter who made the fibers compared to how they are used. There isn't anyone out there making "bad carbon fiber" - just bad carbon lay ups.

Read some of the "Tech Papers" here:
http://www.calfeedesign.com/index.htm A little dated, but interesting.


----------



## StillKeen (Oct 4, 2005)

WheresWaldo said:


> I believe Merida makes Specialized, I also recall that they are part owners of Specialized.


I read that too. From memory, Merida make 1/2 and Kinesis make the other 1/2 (this was a few years ago).


----------



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

The Top TREK models (Madone etal) share a factory with the top Cervelo models. I got a kick out of going into a major bike retailer in Seattle and finding customers choosing between Trek, Cervelo and Specialized.


----------



## designair (Jul 8, 2005)

terbennett said:


> Giant was also making Treks when they were marketing their own brand. I remember a friend of mine hed a Giant road bike back when I was in high school in the late 80's. BTW, Mike Burrows designed Giants were some of the best looking designs I've ever seen IMO. In fact, I still want one of his aero seatposts that Giants used to have.



I was lucky to grab a 2nd one over the summer.:thumbsup:


----------



## loma101 (Jan 15, 2015)

ms6073 said:


> Additionally, Giant has probably the broadest depth of knowledge in composite contrcution techniques. My understanding is Giant is a subsidiary of a parent company who's primary business since the mid-80's was composite aerospace assemblies which are used in the construction of aircraft at Airbus, Boeing, and Embraer.


Anything to support this claim? Sounds interesting..


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

loma101 said:


> Anything to support this claim? Sounds interesting..


All the people that were in this thread have pass away of old age.


----------



## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

I'm sure glad my Schwinn is made in Chicago !! :mad2:


----------



## loma101 (Jan 15, 2015)

ziscwg said:


> All the people that were in this thread have pass away of old age.


LOL! Probably, I was just really curious about the possibility of Giant being involved in aerospace. I work at a Giant retailer, and I thought it would be cool to share at work.


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

loma101 said:


> LOL! Probably, I was just really curious about the possibility of Giant being involved in aerospace. I work at a Giant retailer, and I thought it would be cool to share at work.


I'm going to call it bs.



> As a young man, Liu was a jack-of-all-trades who eventually joined the family eel farming business. But a typhoon wiped it out and in 1973 Liu entered the bicycle business.


A-Team Profile ? King Liu | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Looks like it started as a bicycle business (thanks to Schwinn) and has always been a bicycle business.


----------



## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

loma101 said:


> LOL! Probably, I was just really curious about the possibility of Giant being involved in aerospace. I work at a Giant retailer, and I thought it would be cool to share at work.


just preface it by "i read on the internet"............ and go with it. Kestrel was formed by aerospace engineers and Kestrels are now made in Taiwan so why not?


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> All the people that were in this thread have pass away of old age.


Yeah, what is with the necroposts?


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

wgscott said:


> Yeah, what is with the necroposts?


Probably BLACK MAGIC MARRIAGE CURSE or something...


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

wgscott said:


> Yeah, what is with the necroposts?


What do you expect from someone that joined in the last 2 weeks?  That was his first post...the way people join forums and dig up completely random posts is rather amazing.


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

headloss said:


> I'm going to call it bs.
> 
> Looks like it started as a bicycle business (thanks to Schwinn) and has always been a bicycle business.


When Schwinn began having labor problems at the Chicago factory in the late seventies, the company began exploring the possibility of importing bikes made to Schwinn designs and specifications from Taiwan (they had already been importing some models from Japan, mostly made by National/Panasonic, since the early seventies).

This excerpt from a 1983 U.S. International Trade Commission report on bicycle manufacturing in Taiwan mentions Schwinn's assistance in helping Giant build Schwinn designed and engineered bikes for the U.S. market.










Schwinn's early contributions to Giant's incredible success as a bicycle manufacturer is well documented.


----------



## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Scooper said:


> When Schwinn began having labor problems at the Chicago factory in the late seventies, the company began exploring the possibility of importing bikes made to Schwinn designs and specifications from Taiwan (they had already been importing some models from Japan, mostly made by National/Panasonic, since the early seventies).
> 
> This excerpt from a 1983 U.S. International Trade Commission report on bicycle manufacturing in Taiwan mentions Schwinn's assistance in helping Giant build Schwinn designed and engineered bikes for the U.S. market.
> 
> ...


I want to know who *** is protecting. Was the CIA involved in Giant's start up? :skep:


----------



## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

Just because one factory makes frames for several brands does not mean that the frames are the same. The factory makes the frame according to the materials and design specified by the brand that orders the frames.


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

Mr645 said:


> Just because one factory makes frames for several brands does not mean that the frames are the same. The factory makes the frame according to the materials and design specified by the brand that orders the frames.


So why wouldn't the factory's house brand take advantage of using the best technology available that isn't patent-protected, given they already have the tooling available? In a world where Trek and Specialized exceed at branding and marketing more than anything else... I don't see your point. It's not a matter of frame quality, but how much we ultimately pay as an upcharge for a decal (which obviously will vary from one model to another, not just brand).


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Bill2 said:


> I want to know who *** is protecting. Was the CIA involved in Giant's start up? :skep:


It does look like the numbers have been censored by someone. The USITC publication number is 731-TA-111 (8-1983), so I'm going to try to get a copy of the original document.


----------



## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

There are some difficult and costly details that go into some higher end frames that may be left out to reach a lower price point. It's not that were not paying for a name, the brands sell their bikes for as high a price as they can and still sell bikes. But the same factory may make frames for another brand but cut out time consuming steps or eliminate costly details that effect the looks and ride quality of a frame, in order to reach a different price point


----------



## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

So what ever happened to rx-79g anyway?


----------



## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

Not that it adds a whole lot to this resurrected from the dead thread, but Giant makes the rims on my KTM dirtbike.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Trek's are made in Giant's factory and Specialized's are made in Merida's. If you test them, they ride differently though, but you can see similarities. Giant's RideSense and Trek's Duotrap sensor, etc. for example. I guess all it really changes is that one sitting on a Trek or a Specialized cannot really look down their nose at one on a Giant or Merida. I suppose it also emphasizes what kind of value Giant bikes really are when it comes to price. It is what it is....


----------



## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Rashadabd said:


> Trek's are made in Giant's factory and Specialized's are made in Merida's. If you test them, they ride differently though, but you can see similarities. Giant's RideSense and Trek's Duotrap sensor, etc. for example. I guess all it really changes is that one sitting on a Trek or a Specialized cannot really look down their nose at one on a Giant or Merida. I suppose it also emphasizes what kind of value Giant bikes really are when it comes to price. It is what it is....


If I ever buy another carbon bike, I'll definitely consider a Giant. No use paying a premium for a Trek or Specialized when they don't even fabricate their own bikes.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

just remind yourself you are paying 4 figures for a frame that costs in the low 3 figures


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> If I ever buy another carbon bike, I'll definitely consider a Giant. No use paying a premium for a Trek or Specialized when they don't even fabricate their own bikes.


Do you think the same way about other durable goods, like IT items (few brand OEM's fabricate their stuff), appliances, automotive, etc? How about food products and pharmaceuticals? 

A great deal of what we buy today is produced by contract manufacturing, that is fabricated or manufactured by someone other then the brand OEM. Bicycle frames are no different in that regard. Done properly, contract manufacturing doesn't alter the quality one bit, but it does keep the costs down. Giant produces nearly all of Trek's Al frames. For OCLV 400-600 carbon, Trek uses primarily three other contract manufactures in Asia. The designs are Trek's as are all the specifications including materials, layups, etc.

If you want a carbon bike frame made in the USA by the branding OEM, Trek OCLV-700 series framesets are all made in Wisconsin, by Trek employees.


----------



## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

ibericb said:


> Do you think the same way about other durable goods, like IT items (few brand OEM's fabricate their stuff), appliances, automotive, etc? How about food products and pharmaceuticals?


I do cross shop and buy house brands and generics. Case in point Kroger's house brand peanut butter with honey is the best peanut butter out there, Jif can't compete! LOL


----------



## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

ibericb said:


> Do you think the same way about other durable goods, like IT items (few brand OEM's fabricate their stuff), appliances, automotive, etc? How about food products and pharmaceuticals?
> 
> A great deal of what we buy today is produced by contract manufacturing, that is fabricated or manufactured by someone other then the brand OEM. Bicycle frames are no different in that regard. Done properly, contract manufacturing doesn't alter the quality one bit, but it does keep the costs down. Giant produces nearly all of Trek's Al frames. For OCLV 400-600 carbon, Trek uses primarily three other contract manufactures in Asia. The designs are Trek's as are all the specifications including materials, layups, etc.
> 
> If you want a carbon bike frame made in the USA by the branding OEM, Trek OCLV-700 series framesets are all made in Wisconsin, by Trek employees.


Think what you want. Giant does its engineering in house. It has the advantage of building bikes for others and learning from that. I'm not about to buy an overpriced, bling bike from Trek or Specialized just to get a made in the US bike. Why should I buy a Trek if it is more expensive than a Giant for the same quality bike? Just to have the name "Trek" on it? I've bought many Trek bikes over the years, but probably no more. I'm also not particularly fond of what they did to Klien, Fisher, and other small bike companies they bought out, and what they did to Lemond. In my opinion, bike companies get more credit than they deserve. They basically supply the frame. The real engineering is in the components, and house brand components usually are not that good. A savvy cyclist can basically spec, purchase, and assemble their own bike. You should read what Joseph Juran, quality guru, says about companies that contract everything out.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Think what you want. Giant does its engineering in house. ...


So does Trek, and Specialized.

I'm not advocating or supporting any brand. There is absolutely no reason for you to buy any particular frame, other than it suits you for whatever reasons are important to you. I'm just pointing out that because Giant manufactures Trek's Al frames for them, isn't a reflection in any way on the design or engineering (or much of anything else) of Trek's frames. What I am suggesting is to choose a frameset based upon design, engineering, and any other factors that may be relevant to the buyer(price, quality of construction, options, appearance, warranty, customer support, etc.) with little regard to whose employees do the manufacturing work or in which factory location the frameset is produced. That's about what contract manufacturing for major brand OEM's is limited to - hands, tools/equipment, and production facilities.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the generally overstated significance of bike brand vs. the other components that go into making the complete bike. But many of those are similarly contractor manufactured. In the end, it's how everything comes together. If you can get everything you want with a generic frame, and there are many of those offered up under various brand names designed, engineered and produced by the likes of Giant, Kinesis and others, then by all means, go for it. But those won't be Trek or Specialized or ...


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

T K said:


> So what ever happened to rx-79g anyway?


I was just wondering that myself...it's not even like he reincarnated himself w/ a new username. I guess he just moved on.


----------



## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

T K said:


> So what ever happened to rx-79g anyway?


Earth Federation retired its ass come the Zeta Gundam era.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

mfdemicco said:


> If I ever buy another carbon bike, I'll definitely consider a Giant. No use paying a premium for a Trek or Specialized when they don't even fabricate their own bikes.


True for sure. Just like clowns paying top dollar for Colnagos (less the C60), Pinarellos and Wiliers. . Anyone paying for $2500 for any of these is an jackass.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Notvintage said:


> True for sure. Just like clowns paying top dollar for Colnagos (less the C60), Pinarellos and Wiliers. . Anyone paying for $2500 for any of these is an jackass.


Want to explain this? Try to make yourself not sound like the aforementioned jackass.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> Want to explain this? Try to make yourself not sound like the aforementioned jackass.


I agree. I hope he doesn't drive anything other than a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, or a comparable Hyundai - otherwise he spent too much money for a basic transportation device...like a jackass.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

To each his own is probably the best policy on stuff like this. What I can add is that Giant bikes are incredible values. I test rode a TCR and Propel back to back yesterday. I can say without hesitation that the TCR is one of the best handling and "quick" bikes I have ridden. It was very stiff, but more than comfortable to ride anywhere for as long as you like. It is such a nice ride to hammer on. I really liked the Propel as well, but not as much as the TCR. Did I mention you can get one for less $1900?


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> I thought everyone knew that.
> 
> Giant used to make Schwinns back in the day, too.


So did Panasonic, but Schwinn use to make all the bikes in America but labor cost got too high. Now Schwinn is nothing than a decal plastered on a bike made by Dorel industries who makes all sort of cheap bikes for Walmart and other mass merchants, now Cannondale is on that same league, just a decal made by Dorel which if past history is any indication Cannondale will become a cheap bike sold by mass merchants.


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

Notvintage said:


> True for sure. Just like clowns paying top dollar for Colnagos (less the C60), Pinarellos and Wiliers. . Anyone paying for $2500 for any of these is an jackass.


eh? The Wiliers are rather cheap on Wiggle at times... not premium priced. But yeah, just paying for a label/brand in most cases.



PlatyPius said:


> I agree. I hope he doesn't drive anything other than a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, or a comparable Hyundai - otherwise he spent too much money for a basic transportation device...like a jackass.


Your examples would be more like Walmart bikes in this analogy, I think.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

headloss said:


> eh? The Wiliers are rather cheap on Wiggle at times... not premium priced. But yeah, just paying for a label/brand in most cases.
> 
> 
> 
> Your examples would be more like Walmart bikes in this analogy, I think.


Not really...you can buy a nice Hyundai for $15,000. A really nice Focus or equivalent is gonna run you twice that. A BMW can be had new for another $15,000. Your bike comparison would be $2500, $5000, and $7500...that pretty much describes the vast majority of sales in our shop. 
A Walmart bike would be like a 10 year old Kia that was used hard and put away wet...


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Nope, an E92 BMW M3. Makes for a nice commute.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> Want to explain this? Try to make yourself not sound like the aforementioned jackass.


I see you were last in your class in reading interpretation. Point was that spending $5k to $6k on an Italian name/Taiwanese made frameset seems silly when you can buy a well crafted Giant for half as much. I can't dumb it down any more.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Notvintage said:


> Nope, an E92 BMW M3. *Makes for a nice commute*.


No doubt! Whatever I think about your bike industry knowledge aside you have excellent taste in cars! Post some pics of that beast.


----------



## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

Meh.. billions of M3's on the road  .. I'll stick with my C63 heh


----------



## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

Does Giant make good Trek bikes?


----------



## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

craiger_ny said:


> Does Giant make good Trek bikes?


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/i-guess-giant-makes-trek-234694.html#post3125738


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

We just have a bunch of Specialized dealers around. Are they made in the Giant factory also or do they have their own place?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

BikeLayne said:


> We just have a bunch of Specialized dealers around. Are they made in the Giant factory also or do they have their own place?


Specialized doesn't make anything. They're in CA and everything they sell has either a 'Made in Taiwan' or 'Made in China' sticker on it. They're just like everyone else.


----------



## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Specialized doesn't make anything. They're in CA and everything they sell has either a 'Made in Taiwan' or 'Made in China' sticker on it. They're just like everyone else.


Since the Taiwanese company Merida owns 49% of Spec and manufactures most of Specs bikes, you could argue that Spec does make their bikes lol


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Specialized doesn't make anything. They're in CA and everything they sell has either a 'Made in Taiwan' or 'Made in China' sticker on it. They're just like everyone else.


Not quite like everyone else, my Lynskey was made in America, but you're right most if not all bikes sold by an LBS are made in China or Taiwan which is why LBS's profits are about 20% higher then in the 70's and 80's, which isn't a big deal since year end profits in the 2000's is only 5.5% average. The biggest profit makers though are the bike manufactures like Trek etc. These guys are raking in the cash compared to the 70's and 80's, you would think they would now trickle down a bit more profit to the retailers.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

CBus660R said:


> Since the Taiwanese company Merida owns 49% of Spec and manufactures most of Specs bikes, you could argue that Spec does make their bikes lol


Never thought of it that way...almost kinda sorta makes sense!


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Specialized bikes are then made by Merida which has factories in China and Taiwan. Also Merida owns a large portion of Specialized. I am not stating a fact but just trying to piece together what has been said. Anyway Giant does not make Specialized bikes for them. 

I do have a Specialized bike box in the garage right now and it says "made in China" on the box. I got the box at the bike shop as I am going to ship an old Cannondale to my son in Montana on Friday. It's going to be his college bike. 

Specialized headquarters is only 30miles from my house but I have never been there.


----------



## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

BikeLayne said:


> Specialized bikes are then made by Merida which has factories in China and Taiwan. Also Merida owns a large portion of Specialized.


From what I can gather based on this thread and a bit of googlefu, Merida owns 49% of Spec and is one of the leading frame manufacturers. They are based in Taiwan with "5 factories: 1 in Taiwan, 3 in China and 1 in Germany." Merida Bikes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

CBus660R said:


> From what I can gather based on this thread and a bit of googlefu, Merida owns 49% of Spec and is one of the leading frame manufacturers. They are based in Taiwan with "5 factories: 1 in Taiwan, 3 in China and 1 in Germany." Merida Bikes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Thanks.


----------



## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

Does this really matter? Who cares?
Giant bikes are their own brand, as is Trek and any other brand made at those factories.
Is a Honda CRV the same as a Honda Accord? Is a Lexus the same as a Toyota?
Just because they are made on the same platform does not mean that they are the same. Bikes are no different. 
The same workers may make them but the products are still different. Personally, I find this old news and insignificant anyway. Do I care where my Colnago is made? No. The quality is still there regardless of where it is made.
You could make a case for Cannondale following the same route that GT and Schwinn did but that would be a decision of the parent company, not where it is made.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Lexus is the sane as Toyota. In Japan they used to sell Toyota Presidents, Luxury cars, super nice. But Toyota as a BRAND means cheap cars in America so they could never market them here. So what did they do? They made a new brand, that meant 'luxury'. They all did it, Acura and Infiniti as well. Volkswagen has cars in Europe that compete with Audi and BMW they don't try to sell here because of their US Brand recognition.

What this tells us is the importance of brand more than anything. (same reason pay $4000 for a frame that costs probably less than $200 to build). There's a reason big companies pay so much $ for their brand, because it can literally mean millions of dollars. It also shows what happens when a company diminishes their brand and winds up pigeonholing themselves in a less profitable / but higher volume market segment.


----------



## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

atpjunkie said:


> Volkswagen has cars in Europe that compete with Audi and BMW they don't try to sell here because of their US Brand recognition.


Actually, that's not quite correct. Almost all the models sold by VW to compete with BMW and MB are Audi's. That is VW's luxury brand (not including Lamborghini and Bugatti). They do sell vehicles under the SEAT and Skoda brands in Europe and Baltic states. There are a dozen or so reason why, most of them agreements and financial related to when VW acquired the brands in question from their home countries (Spain = SEAT and Czech = Skoda). The models are typically identical from a spec perspective, but differ on looks. That difference is typically skin deep, the major underpinnings are usually identical. There are the exceptions, Skoda has a seriously hot hatchback based on the Golf R32 platform and then dialed up to 11.. 

Like most companies, they bring over the models they think will make money. We miss out on the hot hatchbacks and awesome station wagons (can anyone say 600HP Audi RS6 Avante, or the Estate version of my car, the C63.. now I am just sad). But it is not just non US brands, look at Ford, the Focus and Fiesta RS models, seriously fun little monsters, but you cannot get them in the US.

The main reason for luxury brands has been discussed already, people see Toyota, they are not going to spend $60 (or 300k + in the case of the LFA) for a Toyota, that same model rebranded in the US as a lexus with some minor body differences, and bam.. stupid pay will pay $60 for a Toyota. That is not to say that the amenities are not nice.. but typically you can get a top of the range non lux model with the exact same amenities and options as a bottom range no optioned lux model, for less.

Typical example, VW Passat, fully loaded with all options, is around the same price as it's stablemate the A4 with no options.. sure it does not look as nice.. but still

<-- Car nerd


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

VW quit selling the Phaeton in the U.S. market nearly a decade ago, but it has soldiered on in other markets.

Here's the 2006 model:










According to Jalopnik, the next generation Phaeton will be introduced in the U.S. market in 2018 or 2019 with a base price of $70,000, and will have several powerplant options including a TDI V8 and a gasoline V6 hybrid. We Americans are unlikely to get the W12 engine, though.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I have thought a lot about this stuff a lot for the last year and a half or so and I have come to a couple of conclusions: 1) people should ride what they want (for whatever reasons) and can afford and 2) I was using the "wrong" criteria (for me anyway) when looking at bikes prior to this year. It has taken me a minute to get it together, but I have learned that 1) overall performance (usally meaning stiffness to weight and ride quality for me) and 2) getting value for my money are the things that mean the most to me. Looks are third (but still kind of important). 

Realizing this has helped me look at my options differently and has given me greater appreciation for companies like Giant and Felt that provide high performing bikes at a more affordable price and that see that as important part of their business model. I also have an interest in the new Fuji Transonic for those same reasons. I no longer care about artifical categories of bikes (like "aero road" or "endurance race"- which are created mostly for maketing purposes) nor do I care much about brand names. I now focus on quality of build, performance on the road, warranty, durability, stiffness, weight, ride quality, and ultimately price. Given that as a criteria, I suddenly found that I couldn't help but respect Giant's work, whereas they weren't even on the radar for me before.

FWIW, I think I feel pretty much the same way about cars now. I like an adequate amount of speed and power (probably a V6 at minimum) and place a premium on performance, ride quality, and safety, but I don't really care a whole lot about brand, etc. anymore.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Scooper said:


> VW quit selling the Phaeton in the U.S. market nearly a decade ago, but it has soldiered on in other markets.
> 
> Here's the 2006 model:
> 
> ...


thanks Scooper that was one of the models I was thinking about.

Well That Didn't Work: Turns Out Americans Didn't Want a $70K Luxury VW. Go Figure | WIRED


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

ljvb said:


> Actually, that's not quite correct. Almost all the models sold by VW to compete with BMW and MB are Audi's. That is VW's luxury brand (not including Lamborghini and Bugatti). They do sell vehicles under the SEAT and Skoda brands in Europe and Baltic states. There are a dozen or so reason why, most of them agreements and financial related to when VW acquired the brands in question from their home countries (Spain = SEAT and Czech = Skoda). The models are typically identical from a spec perspective, but differ on looks. That difference is typically skin deep, the major underpinnings are usually identical. There are the exceptions, Skoda has a seriously hot hatchback based on the Golf R32 platform and then dialed up to 11..
> 
> Like most companies, they bring over the models they think will make money. We miss out on the hot hatchbacks and awesome station wagons (can anyone say 600HP Audi RS6 Avante, or the Estate version of my car, the C63.. now I am just sad). But it is not just non US brands, look at Ford, the Focus and Fiesta RS models, seriously fun little monsters, but you cannot get them in the US.
> 
> ...


they can't bring over their nicer models because of the brand identity here. See below.

the Passat is still available in Europe and competes with Audi and BMW (just slightly cheaper than a C Class Merc or BMW 3 series, they had to dumb down and cheapen the US version. 

"Battling American perceptions of lower value for money, VW in 2011 launched a cheaper, simplified Passat built at its plant in Chattanooga, Tenn. After surging in the first year, sales of the model slipped into decline, contributing to the 2013 ouster of VW's U.S. chief."

The Van, the California would run $65K here and with their brand ID here, they don't think it would sell


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

atpjunkie said:


> thanks Scooper that was one of the models I was thinking about.
> 
> Well That Didn't Work: Turns Out Americans Didn't Want a $70K Luxury VW. Go Figure | WIRED


My main ride for the past 22 years has been a 1993 Jetta III GL (2.0 L) and the odometer rolled to 222,000 miles yesterday. I've never had any engine work done except changing the timing belt every ~70k miles. It has been really reliable, but is starting to get long in the tooth, so I'm thinking about getting a new Jetta TDI this year to replace it.

*EDIT -* Apologies for my part in the thread drift from bikes to cars. I got sucked in by the subtlety of the drift.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Correction: the Audi A4 is based on the Jetta; The A6 is based on the Passat. However, you're right about everything else. Also, Why are we rehashing a 4.5 year old thread? I posted on this thread back in 2010 too.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

+1... I couldn't agree more. By the way, I stopped buying Trek back in 2005 when I started riding Felt but still had some admiration because they had been good quality bikes. I lost respect for Trek after what they did to LeMond. I don't care how good their bikes are. Their competitors are just as good. The loss of respect put the final nail in the coffin for them in my eyes. I will never buy another Trek.


----------



## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

Notvintage said:


> True for sure. Just like clowns paying top dollar for Colnagos (less the C60), Pinarellos and Wiliers. . Anyone paying for $2500 for any of these is an jackass.


Talk about green with envy. Giant makes a great bike but I do not think that you are a good spokesman for them. 
I am curious about your passing of judgement. If you like Campy can you buy a Giant with it? What about those that enjoy building their own bike? Are they JA's because they can't find a Giant frame? 
The world would be pretty boring if we all thought like you. For the record, I do not think that bikes with comparable specs are vastly different in price regardless of the maker.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Shuffleman said:


> Talk about green with envy. Giant makes a great bike but I do not think that you are a good spokesman for them.
> I am curious about your passing of judgement. If you like Campy can you buy a Giant with it? What about those that enjoy building their own bike? Are they JA's because they can't find a Giant frame?
> The world would be pretty boring if we all thought like you. For the record, I do not think that bikes with comparable specs are vastly different in price regardless of the maker.


This is one of the only major manufacturers I know of that offers a limited lifetime warranty and selles a well built carbon road bike for less than $1500 (granted, the components aren't the best ever): 

Z7 - Felt Bicycles

It's also pretty difficult to find a well made Shimano 105 bike for less than $2000:

TCR Advanced 2 (2015) | Giant Bicycles | United States

Also, just to clarify, Giant does offer some framesets: 

Propel Advanced Pro Frameset (2015) | Giant Bicycles | United States

TCR Advanced SL Frameset (2015) | Giant Bicycles | United States


----------



## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

How in the hell did this get back on topic?

I was just going to ask if Toyota makes good cars.


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I hope Subaru's make good cars because I just bought a 2015 Forrester. I will let you know in 10 years how it turns out. I wash it every Saturday so far. Still trying to decide if I want the Subaru rails or go with the Yakima. I have some Yakima accessories as my last car had a Yakima roof rack. 

I like the Felt and Giant bikes posted up before. I doubt I would buy a production bike but those look very nice.


----------



## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Well toyota make good cars...and they own a chunk of Fuji Heavy which owwns subaru... :0


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

craiger_ny said:


> How in the hell did this get back on topic?
> 
> I was just going to ask if Toyota makes good cars.


I don't like Toyotas, not because they're not good cars, but because they make boring cars except for the FJ Cruiser which they stopped making. No performance cars even though they have a great racing program, just blah cars. They supposedly in 2016 will produce a car called the Mirai which will add a small amount of non boredom to one car.


----------



## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

froze said:


> I don't like Toyotas, not because they're not good cars, but because they make boring cars except for the FJ Cruiser which they stopped making. No performance cars even though they have a great racing program, just blah cars. They supposedly in 2016 will produce a car called the Mirai which will add a small amount of non boredom to one car.


Well they make the AE86 / BRZ thingy, not saying thats su[er exciting, 10, maybe 15 years ago would have been great, now just alright, but they are kinda trying...

Bt what would you call the LFA, I'd say thats something pretty special coming from Toyota.

You'll also find that Mirai is already being made and is not about to add any non boredom to anything. Unless hybrid eccono cars float your boat to excitement


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

mik_git said:


> Well they make the AE86 / BRZ thingy, not saying thats su[er exciting, 10, maybe 15 years ago would have been great, now just alright, but they are kinda trying...
> 
> Bt what would you call the LFA, I'd say thats something pretty special coming from Toyota.
> 
> You'll also find that Mirai is already being made and is not about to add any non boredom to anything. Unless hybrid eccono cars float your boat to excitement


On the Lexus side the LFA is a pretty neat looking car as is the RCF; but just the Toyotas by themselves excluding Lexus...a huge yuk factor over all the models. Scion has sort of interesting car with the frsrs1 but the horsepower from the factory is a dismal 200, it should have been 300 then add performance mods to do even better. Toyota just isn't in the performance competition with the other big Japanese car companies, Mitsubishi has the Lancer Revolution with 291 horses but another yuk looking car.


----------



## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

If you are picky, and you know you are, you would complain that your Porsche Cayenne, and Panamera, which has a pretty good record for quality, I think, was built by VW, because it really is a VW.

More on point, you would also complain that the Boxter was made in Finland, by Finns (OK, immigrants), in one of their supplier's factories (Valmet), like these Trek bikes that are supposed to be unique. Bjork has probably written a song about this, unfortunately nobody can understand that song.

Which leads me to... In the late 90s, you could buy a Trek MTB with a Jetta attached under it... like this:
















Part of the promo was a frame bag, like this one:








I don't have a Trek or a VW any more, so if someone in the GTA wants it, you can have it.


----------



## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

.je said:


> If you are picky, and you know you are, you would complain that your Porsche Cayenne, and Panamera, which has a pretty good record for quality, I think, was built by VW, because it really is a VW.


Porsche did the design and engineering work on the Cayenne/Tourag. They're more Porsche than VW There have been reports that after Porsche got done billing out VW, they turned a profit on that project and sell the Cayenne with zero R&D expenses. It's the main reason Porsche is in business and can sell 13million variations of the 911.


----------



## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

.je said:


> Which leads me to... In the late 90s, you could buy a Trek MTB with a Jetta attached under it... like this:


Don't forget the Ford Focus Kona edition. I don't think it came with a bike, but it did have sweet body molding with a MTB tread pattern.
View attachment 303235


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

VW came out with a Jetta that came with a Trek, good thing too because that car became a real pile after the first 50,000 miles and you would need the bike to go get help.


----------



## JFR (Apr 18, 2003)

CBus660R said:


> Porsche did the design and engineering work on the Cayenne/Tourag. They're more Porsche than VW There have been reports that after Porsche got done billing out VW, they turned a profit on that project and sell the Cayenne with zero R&D expenses. It's the main reason Porsche is in business and can sell 13million variations of the 911.


Correct. Its platform was developed by Porsche and is shared with the Volkswagen Touareg. Although the Cayenne shares its platform, body frame and doors with the similar Volkswagen Touareg, all other aspects of vehicle design, including the interiors, engine (V8 models*), suspension, brakes and *it's production *are done in-house at Porsche. To say it's really a VW is horse pucky, although a lot of Touareg owners like to think and say so. 

(*Engine exceptions are in fact the V6 models, shared across the VW, Porsche and Audi lines. Maybe more auto lines, keep reading.) 

The potential argument that one may still make would be that the Volkswagen Group _owns _Porsche. That would be correct. The Volkswagen Group owns and sells passenger cars under the Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; motorcycles under the Ducati brand; and commercial vehicles under the MAN, Scania, Neoplan and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles marques. It is divided into two primary divisions, the Automotive Division and the Financial Services Division, and has approximately 340 subsidiary companies. The company has operations in approximately 150 countries and operates 100 production facilities across 27 countries. It holds a 19.9% non-controlling shareholding in Suzuki and has two major joint-ventures in China (FAW-Volkswagen and Shanghai Volkswagen). 

They are an enormous company. But while they own all those companies, the cars are not all made in the same factory. It's not quite the same situation discussed in this thread with Giant and there is more that a discerning customer will appreciate between the automotive products above vs. the difference in product quality and performance seen between brands produced by Giant.


----------



## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

The 3.2 and 3.6 V(R)6 are VW's and subsequently W8 and W12 are VW designs as well. (Wish I had the money to get the Caynne VR6 with the 6-speed manual when they still imported them)

The Porsche Macan is derived from the Audi Q5 though.

But I'm fine with my VW with an Audi engine


----------



## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

JFR said:


> The potential argument that one may still make would be that the Volkswagen Group _owns _Porsche. That would be correct.


That didn't happen until after the Cayenne/Touareg was on the market. And it actually came about when Porsche misplayed the financial market in an attempt to raise the capital to buy the VW group. That went wrong and VW was able to buy them instead. Of course there is a long history of cooperation between the 2 because of the family ties in both companies' board of directors. There's lots of interesting history between the companies as the descendants of Ferdinand are basically in a 3 generation pissing match! LOL


----------



## xml-2277 (Dec 31, 2014)

I don't know how recent those pictures are, but I can say that as of a few months ago, Trek has moved a substantial amount of their overseas production to Martec, another Asian manufacturer...


----------



## star69 (Apr 4, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Think what you want. Giant does its engineering in house.



I used to work for one of the larger bike manufacturer and I visited the Giant factory in Taichung when Treks and Specialized bikes were rolling off the lines, before they built the big mainland factory.

I think we had 2 or 3 engineers. I would be surprised if any major bike manufacturer has more than a dozen. For comparison I now work for a smaller aerospace company and we have around 1500 engineers.

There's just not that much engineering needed to design and built bicycles. And most of the new design 'engineering' is marketing bullshit.


----------

