# How good is Waterford?



## kroettger1

HI guys,

I do not race,but do like to ride fast and mow down miles. I do a practive crit every monday in season.

I owned Two paramounts in the mid 90's loved the bike. One was Japanese Built with lowest end components, the other was, 650c waterford built. Loved the ride of both frames sold each for different reasons.

Now i am looking for new custom built frame. The Waterford lower end tig welded tubing, model R-14 of OS2 seems to reasonable. And I know their work and reputation.

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/designs/r.php

Waterford seems to be a little old school. How good is this Frame? Strong, Sycip, Rock lobser, SoulCraft, & Kish, all make frames for about the same price. 

I have the ability to work out my fit and work with any manufacturer, but what is the best method to judge different builders.

PS IF, Serrotas, and steelmans are super-cool, but for the price, you can get into some ti frames?

Please Advise.


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## SDizzle

Good. Very good. 9 out of 10? (I can't think of any builders that would score 10 of 10, except maybe Richard Sachs, Bryan Bayliss, Mark Nobilette, so that's saying something.) If you can afford it, I would HIGHLY recommend getting one of their lugged frames, even the lower end model, with a steel fork to match.

If you really want Ti, you should check out Dean. ...But I work there, so I'm a little biased. I would stick with steel if I were you.


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## Lawrencer2003

*Can't go wrong with Waterford*

They may be old school but they use the most modern materials & techniques. I'd say you get a lot for the money. 10 0ut of 10 in my book. These guys are best in class.

I have a lugged RST22 that I got this year. Custom fit rules.

Also reccomend Serotta & Independent Fabricators.


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## bikewise1

I'd have to say that after 25 years in the bike business, there isn't anything "better". My employees can get pro deals on Trek, Fisher, Lemond and others, but they all choose Waterford and Gunnar. That says a lot.


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## ox_rider

How did the custom process go with the Waterford? Did you supply measurements from a bike, did someone FitKit you, or?


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## kroettger1

I am still figuring out my exact path. Waterford is my # one choice if I go with a steel frame. 
I am also looking a moots for ti. The shop by my house is going to place my on the fit cycle and see were I am at.

I will keep you posted.


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## Lawrencer2003

I do not think Waterford would accept an order for which a dealer did not do a fitting. There is too much at stake in building a frame to someone elses specs.

My experience is that the fitting process is quite detailed and I was very happy. I understand that the Moots process is also quite exacting. There is even more at stake there!


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## finman 50

I wrecked my Giant TCR last year put me in the hospital for a few days. so it was a pretty good wreck. Now I' m back but the bike creeks when you get out of the saddle. I've had it checked out but I just don't trust it and want to go custom. I'm a fan of Carbon but now I"m not sure if I trurst it any more. It didn't help now that Trek has a sticker on their new 2007 Carbon bike telling you they may fail even if you can't see any damage. So now I'm thinking Custom & Waterford. why did you choose steel over Carbon?


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## Lawrencer2003

Could not afford Ti. Hate Aluminum. Don't trust Carbon plus it feels lifeless. Don't want to sweat every scratch or ding. Love that lugged construction from Waterford plus they don't nickel and dime for braze on's.


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## HBPUNK

Curtlo Custom Steel $755 and as good as any custom builder. No need to spend thousands, dont believe the hype

http://www.curtlo.com/


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## Lawrencer2003

Certainly seem like a good value, but these frames aint the same. I object strenuously to your use of "hype" to define the value proposition that Waterford, Rivendell, Serotta, IFC & other high end builders provide. I would bet that a side by side comparison would prove it, not to mention that the best builders rely on a network of certified dealers/fitters. Plus Waterford & Rivendell use lugs in their construction of both frames & forks and adjust their tube specs to meet the exact needs of the rider. Did not see this level of service reflected.. 

that said


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## HBPUNK

How many of those bikes you speak of have you actually ridden?

I've ridden Serotta, IF,Curtlo and have at least seen a few Waterfords. Curtlo is the best out of the bunch as far as value without a doubt and if they did cost the same as the others they'd still be as good and thats the point

Let me know which Curtlo youve ridden or if youve even seen one. 

youre opinions are based on assumption and have no validity unless youve actaully spent time on them or at least seen them all which you obviously havent


you dont think Curtlo adjusts tube specs to the exact needs of the rider? Of course they do

lol braggin about Waterfords forks, give me a break


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## finman 50

Thanks Lawrencer2003 I've spent the several hours all over the internet and I think you are on target. 

I like what I saw on the Glen Erikson web site but it didn't seem like they had a system where they train the bike fitters. [maybe I missed it] Same with Dave Kirk.

What I came up with is that both Waterford and Serotta went to the trouble of training the people they work with at the local level. Especially Serotta. From there I found local shops. I figured I'd go and talk to them and take it from there and see which one of them really knows what they are talking about. 

Both shops offer Trek so the custom Project one is always a fall back. Lance didn't seem to do too bad with his. I can get a feel for what they say about Carbon vs Steel. 

I'm leaning to Waterford right now we'll have to see. Thanks


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## Lawrencer2003

Test rode all three, also tested Gunnar and a few stock manufacturers during my very long decision process. I also interviewed several shops before settling on foks who built my bike. Have not seen a Curtlo but let me say that you started this by referring to the reputation and positioning of these manufacturer's as "Hype". If it were just "Hype" then I assume these folks would not be as successful as they are or as well regarded.. None of these folks spend much on marketing so please tell me what is being "hyped". They all run on pretty tight margins and are all small companies.

I'm sure you are happy with your decision to buy a Curtlo. Just don't trash the competition.


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## HBPUNK

The Hype I was referring to was having to spend an astronomical amount of money to get the best quality steel and its not neccessarily true. Of course I know all the steel builders mentioned on this thread are top notch but just because some builders are charging 3X the amount as other doesnt mean the qaulity is any better and its not

I dont own a Curtlo, the only steel bike I own is a mass produced Cervelo Superprodigy that I wouldnt trade for any other steel

(dork disc removed, ha ha)










all are great choices but you get what you pay for isnt always true and I'd say especially for steel and Ti

every builder mentioned on this thread is one I'd ride with exception of a Trek


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## threesportsinone

Not that i don't like Waterford, I love Waterford, I live in Wisconsin, have been to the factory, and have ridden their bikes. But since it hasn't been listed yet in this thread, I'd like to mention Mikkelsen Frames. Bernie Mikkelsen runs a one man show and even makes his own sizing cycle. i had the chance to ride my friends' brother's Mikkelsen mountain bike and it was amazing, light, fast etc. www.mikkelsenframes.com


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## terbennett

Go Waterford. You already know Paramount bikes are great rides. Why not stick with the people that built them. The build is what counts if you're looking for a quality bike. I uised to own a 1989 Paramount- best bike I've ever owned. Now I'm riding aluminum because I bought into the hype early on- however without regret.  While I still love the feedback from my aluminum bikes, NOTHING beats a good steel frame. As you already know, it'll be worth more than your weight in gold.


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## Scooper

I just took delivery of my first Waterford (although I also have a 1987 Waterford-built Paramount).

The fitting process was through Waterford/Gunnar dealer American Cyclery in San Francisco, and was very thorough. They took geometry and measurements off of my favorite frame, then had me "ride" their fitting cycle, making minor adjustments until the fit was perfect.


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## Lawrencer2003

Make sure you post some pics to the pictures thread. Congrats.


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## Scooper

Lawrencer2003 said:


> Make sure you post some pics to the pictures thread. Congrats.


Thanks. I posted some pictures HERE.


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## Lawrencer2003

NICE! So that is Chrome with custom lugs and pinstripes? Small wonder it took so long. 

RST22?


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## Scooper

Lawrencer2003 said:


> NICE! So that is Chrome with custom lugs and pinstripes? Small wonder it took so long.
> 
> RST22?


The only thing that's chromed is the fork, and it's chromed Reynolds 531. The rest of the bike is polished Reynolds 953 stainless steel with polished stainless Sachs Newvex lugs. 

It's a little strange, but none of the paperwork has a model number. I don't know if that's because it's made of stainless or because the frame geometry is different than a stock 22. All the paper work says is "953 Custom", and the seat tube decal has "SS" in the middle instead of a model number. I'm assuming "SS" means stainless steel.


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## waterford853

*Waterford IS that great.*

I worked in shops for years and chose Waterford after riding/owning most of "the others". That was back in 1996. I have a 1200 (one of the last 753 bikes). Last fall, I found a Cinelli Nuovo SuperCorsa and had to try it. It was the most advanced Steel Cinelli until they introduced the XCr this year. The Nuovo SuperCorsa is built by a small shop in Italy. As sweet as the Cinelli is (you can search for the review in this forum) the ride quality and finish work on the Waterford remains unmatched after all this time - by any bike I have seen or owned. I would love to try an R33 but I also wish it had some of the detail work of their lugged bikes (Like the Cinelli does).

As far as Curtlo is concerned, I had a Curtlo MTB. I would agree that it is easily one of the best values in steel, but it lacks the art-like finish and build quality of the Waterford. I have not owned a Curtlo road bike, but I have faith Dave knows what he is doing.


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## Scooper

waterford853 said:


> I worked in shops for years and chose Waterford after riding/owning most of "the others". That was back in 1996. I have a 1200 (one of the last 753 bikes). Last fall, I found a Cinelli Nuovo SuperCorsa and had to try it. It was the most advanced Steel Cinelli until they introduced the XCr this year. The Nuovo SuperCorsa is built by a small shop in Italy. As sweet as the Cenelli is (you can search for the review in this forum) the ride quality and finish work on the Waterford remains unmatched after all this time - by any bike I have seen or owned. I would love to try an R33 but I also wish it had some of the detail work of their lugged bikes (Like the Cenelli does).


I have to agree. Brazing flaws are pretty easily concealed by paint, but polished stainless steel is naked; any flaws will stand out like a sore thumb. The same goes for chrome plated steel. The nickel and chrome plating is too thin to conceal any flaws in the brazing.

Two years and thousands of miles on my polished 953 Waterford, and I'm still on my honeymoon.


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## loudog

i have two and i think they need higher quality paint. seem to scratch very easily. otherwise they are both well built bikes and didnt cost a fortune.


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## loudog

Lawrencer2003 said:


> Could not afford Ti. Hate Aluminum. Don't trust Carbon plus it feels lifeless. Don't want to sweat every scratch or ding. Love that lugged construction from Waterford plus they don't nickel and dime for braze on's.


 carbon is definitely not lifeless.


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## stlutz

I've had my Waterford R-33 for 6 years/30K miles now. Having had it a while, I really notice how well they did the obvious and not-so-obvious things. For example, the seatpost fits perfectly in the frame--better than on my other 3 bikes--don't have to apply a lot of torque to secure it in there. It's fallen over a few times and the paint has held up perfectly--I haven't had to touch anything up. And the paint job is still beautiful. When the bike is clean, people still ask me if I just got a new bike.

On fit, the store you work with is important. Waterford will check measurments and may discuss the fit specs with the store, but it's the people at the store who have seen what you look like on a bike. The shop I worked with was excellent in this regard, which is a lot of why I've been so happy with the bike.


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## Lawrencer2003

Ohhhhhhh If I Had Not Just Dropped 100k I Renovations To My House, I Would So Be Ordering One Of These! 

Bike Porn At Its Best!


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## waterford853

*Waterford 1200 posed on eBay*

Oops... posted on eBay.... My 56cm Waterford is on the blocks. Near NOS. 753 Frame. $600 reserve...:mad2:


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