# Downsides to more spokes?



## Lallement (Mar 1, 2014)

In looking at various wheel builds and deals out there, I see some that have higher spoke count than what I likely need. Other than some additional weight, is there any downsides or negatives?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

No disadvantages to more spokes. Plenty of advantages.

The extra weight is negligible. More spokes, especially on a rear wheel or a disc brake wheel will get you an overall stronger wheel.

Except for one wheel set I built which was 24F/32R, all my others so far have been 32/32.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Not really unless you are going custom, want to use CX Rays, and looking to pinch pennies as much as possible.
That might be another $30 or so comparing, say, 20/28 to 32/32. Money well spend it you might benefit. Kind of a waste if your weight and riding style is such that less spokes present no risk.

I have otherwise identical rear wheels with 24, 28 and 32. I rarely use the same tires across all three but the few times I have I can't detect any performance difference.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Lallement said:


> In looking at various wheel builds and deals out there, I see some that have higher spoke count than what I likely need. Other than some additional weight, is there any downsides or negatives?


More spokes means more weight and more aero drag. Significant? Not really. Obvious advantage is a stronger wheel. 

I would be interested in how you reached the conclusion that those wheels "have higher spoke count than what I likely need."


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Lallement said:


> In looking at various wheel builds and deals out there, I see some that have higher spoke count than what I likely need. Other than some additional weight, is there any downsides or negatives?


not much downsides, but negatives? I can think of one negative, it makes you look luddite if you go 32spoke front and rear!


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## Lallement (Mar 1, 2014)

Kerry Irons said:


> I would be interested in how you reached the conclusion that those wheels "have higher spoke count than what I likely need."


I have been in touch with a few wheel builders who seem to feel that 24/28 would be sufficient, especially with a well built rim.


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## Lallement (Mar 1, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> not much downsides, but negatives? I can think of one negative, it makes you look luddite if you go 32spoke front and rear!


Luddite? 

I have been called worse!


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> not much downsides, but negatives? I can think of one negative, it makes you look luddite if you go 32spoke front and rear!


This is exactly why I run 32 spoke wheels (besides being more durable); it keeps my Luddite Street-Cred intact.


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## Lallement (Mar 1, 2014)

DaveG said:


> This is exactly why I run 32 spoke wheels (besides being more durable); it keeps my Luddite Street-Cred intact.


It is good to embrace it and be proud.

Now, just so I stay current- How is a Fred different from a luddite? What are the similarities and differences? Is there a site with a Venn diagram that will help?


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

As soon as you are rolling.....damned hard to count spokes anyway. When you get to the Coffee Shop before them at the end of the ride, you can laugh as they count spokes.


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## Lallement (Mar 1, 2014)

Although many that you find may be too preoccupied counting miles, watts, power, cadence, calories and logging the info to be able to count one more thing!


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cdhbrad said:


> As soon as you are rolling.....damned hard to count spokes anyway. When you get to the Coffee Shop before them at the end of the ride, you can laugh as they count spokes.


Repped! I just love it when I pass a 20-30 something guy up a hill with his $3K Zipp carbon wheels with minimal spoke count while I'm a 57 y.o. guy on my conventional 32 spoke alloy wheels! :thumbsup:


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Lombard said:


> Repped! I just love it when I pass a 20-30 something guy up a hill with his $3K Zipp carbon wheels with minimal spoke count while I'm a 57 y.o. guy on my conventional 32 spoke alloy wheels! :thumbsup:


I'll be 66 in a week...…..24/28 gets it done for me. I just built a set of new wheels with WI Hubs, C Xrays, and the AForce AL33 rims. I am really liking them.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Lallement said:


> It is good to embrace it and be proud.
> 
> Now, just so I stay current- *How is a Fred different from a luddite?* What are the similarities and differences? Is there a site with a Venn diagram that will help?


now this here is a little subjective and open to interpretation, depending on the weather forecast. But IMO, an ultimate luddite can be riding an expensive classic Italian steel all decked out with gold lugs and gold plated or polished chrome rim brakes (yep, I've seen them), and he may top it off with a tan leather saddle and matching bartape and classic Ambrosio wheels. But a Fred? you'll know one when you see one, and they come in all shapes and sizes, so don't just think Fred has to be a fat guy on a gramp's hybrid either.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

I would also guess that many luddites can keep up with you or blow you away ("you" generically, not "you" OP), this is less likely for a Fred unless they are riding a Machete. Maybe one further advantage to 32/32 if you're a strong rider is that folks will marvel at how you ride so fast with "non-aerodynamic" wheels...


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

More spokes typically mean a stronger wheel. However, spokes are a lot better these days compared to the galvanized steel spokes of yesteryear so 32 spokes is more than enough unless you're a Clydesdale or ride a tandem or loaded touring bike, where 36 spokes might not be enough. 

Less spokes mean lighter weight wheels and better aerodynamics. Rim strength can make up for lack of spokes. There is a lack availability of 36 hole hubs and rims as well.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> More spokes typically mean a stronger wheel. *However, spokes a lot better these days compared to the galvanized steel spokes of yesteryear so 32 spokes is more than enough unless you're a Clydesdale or ride a tandem or loaded touring bike*, where 36 spokes might not be enough.


Not true. The rim is the weakest link in the equation. Fewer spokes mean the load on the rim is concentrated on fewer points. More spokes spreads out this load over more points and is less stressful on the rim.



mfdemicco said:


> *Less spokes mean lighter weight wheels* and better aerodynamics. *Rim strength can make up for lack of spokes*. There is a lack availability of 36 hole hubs and rims as well.


Reread both phrases I highlighted here and you will see they contradict each other. In order for a rim to work reliably with 20 spokes, it needs to be heavier than a rim would need to be to work reliably with 32 spokes. Weight wise, it turns out to be nearly a wash.

Also, the aero advantages of using fewer spokes are negligible and won't be realized under 20mph. The rider is the least aero part of the bike.

You may want to read this excellent article. I know the main topic refers to stiffness, but they make some excellent points:

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunking_Wheel_Stiffness_3449.html


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Not true. The rim is the weakest link in the equation. Fewer spokes mean the load on the rim is concentrated on fewer points. More spokes spreads out this load over more points and is less stressful on the rim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I agree. Cracking at the spoke holes is the major problem I see. Beefing up a rim at these localized locations (spoke holes) won't add much to the weight of a rim whereas adding more spokes I don't think addresses this problem. Aluminum weighs 1/3 the weight of steel too. The most reliable wheels I've had have been low spoke count Shimano WH-6800 wheels vs. 32 spoke Open Pro wheels I have.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> The most reliable wheels I've had have been low spoke count Shimano WH-6800 wheels vs. 32 spoke Open Pro wheels I have.


You're really comparing apples to oranges here. Mavic Open Pros are known for spoke hole cracking and even have a stated tension limit of 90kgF when most rims can handle 120kgF.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Lombard said:


> You're really comparing apples to oranges here. Mavic Open Pros are known for spoke hole cracking and even have a stated tension limit of 90kgF when most rims can handle 120kgF.


I just used the Open Pros as an example. I've had other rims crack and fail. Trek/Bontrager have been the worst. I crack and failed a Torelli, but that was after a lot of miles.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> I just used the Open Pros as an example. I've had other rims crack and fail. Trek/Bontrager have been the worst. I crack and failed a Torelli, but that was after a lot of miles.


I don't know very many people who HAVEN'T cracked a Bontrager rim - especially when they were doing the paired spoke design. Yours truly for one! 4K miles and the rear wheel was toast. And I only weigh 175lbs!


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Lombard said:


> I don't know very many people who HAVEN'T cracked a Bontrager rim - especially when they were doing the paired spoke design. Yours truly for one! 4K miles and the rear wheel was toast. And I only weigh 175lbs!


I wonder if there is any failure analysis on these rims. Could it be too high a spoke tension, too few spokes, wrong choice of aluminum alloy, quality problem with same, or too little strength at the spoke holes? 

I knew someone that rode RAM and said the Rolf wheels he had were the longest lasting wheels he ever used, so I don't think paired spokes are necessarily bad for rim life.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> I wonder if there is any failure analysis on these rims. Could it be too high a spoke tension, too few spokes, wrong choice of aluminum alloy, quality problem with same, or too little strength at the spoke holes?
> 
> I knew someone that rode RAM and said the Rolf wheels he had were the longest lasting wheels he ever used, so I don't think paired spokes are necessarily bad for rim life.


Paired spokes concentrate forces rather than spread them out evenly. If you do that design, you need to have extra reinforcement at the spoke bed in the rim.

Somehow Rolf and Campy do this design without problems. Bontrager didn't. It could be anything you mentioned in your first paragraph or a combination of. I believe the Bonty wheels I had were 20/24 spoke count which I'm sure didn't help either.


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## Pisgah2000 (Nov 24, 2015)

Lombard said:


> I don't know very many people who HAVEN'T cracked a Bontrager rim - especially when they were doing the paired spoke design. Yours truly for one! 4K miles and the rear wheel was toast. And I only weigh 175lbs!


I had a set of paired spoke Selects on an old Poprad. Those wheels were tanks. The only reason that I got rid of them was that I wore the rear brake track down too much. No cracks. So, some people have good luck with those things. Heh. The only rim I've cracked is an Easton EA90 XC MTB rim, and I'm pretty sure that was user error.

Anyway, the only (very slight, really not even worth mentioning) negative that I've noticed with many-spoked wheels is noise. I have a pair of 28/28 aero spoke wheels, and compared to my other 20/24 round spoke wheels, the "whir" at 20mph and above is noticeable. Maybe that's just a function of the aero spokes, but I've had other aero spoke wheels not do that. I guess there's also a slight bit of extra weight and a slight bit of extra work to clean them, and I personally think that having more spokes on my road bike than my MTBs looks a bit wrong.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

You can't get into the cool guys club if you have wheels with too high a spoke count.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Repped! I just love it when I pass a 20-30 something guy up a hill with his $3K Zipp carbon wheels with minimal spoke count while I'm a 57 y.o. guy on my conventional 32 spoke alloy wheels! :thumbsup:


I have a 32 rear wheel.

Passing someone with low spoke carbon wheels in an imaginary race they don't know about does nothing for me.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I have a 32 rear wheel.
> 
> Passing someone with low spoke carbon wheels in an imaginary race they don't know about does nothing for me.


That depends. If they're half my age, it's a big ego trip.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> That depends. If they're half my age, it's a big ego trip.


No, it does not depend for me at all. I've passed former pros that are younger than me, sports cars and been passed by much older old overweight riders on a junk hybrid.
Getting a charge out of passing someone that has no clue there's competition going on is not for me. 

Makes about as much sense as sucker punching someone on the street and thinking that says something about relative fighting ability.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I have a 32 rear wheel.
> 
> Passing someone with low spoke carbon wheels in an imaginary race they don't know about does nothing for me.


Imaginary races are the only kind I can win! I can't defend it it by I do get some sort of perverse pleasure from passing someone on a tricked out high-zoot bike with my retro-steel stead and old-school wheels


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Lombard said:


> Reread both phrases I highlighted here and you will see they contradict each other. In order for a rim to work reliably with 20 spokes, it needs to be heavier than a rim would need to be to work reliably with 32 spokes. Weight wise, it turns out to be nearly a wash.
> 
> Also, the aero advantages of using fewer spokes are negligible and won't be realized under 20mph. The rider is the least aero part of the bike.


Speaking about aluminium rims, I'd put the lightest rims I'd use for a 32 spoke wheel at around 410g and that would be questionable for a rear wheel. I regularly build sets of wheels with 44 spokes (20/24) to rims weighing 445g. The spoke weight difference at best (using all light gauge spokes) would be over 100g for the set and rim total is 70g. Yes that's close enough to argue it's a wash to many, but 30g it is. If the wheels are more aerodynamic (there is no minimum speed for there to be a gain) it's a win-win. Doesn't mean it will completely transform your riding, but the effects are cumulative and on 4-5 hour rides it's nice to have the advantage.

With carbon it's a no brainer. I have a wheelset that's 1022g. More aero than any 32 spoke wheel and about a pound lighter. They are strong enough for my daily riding and spirited sprints. I have 32/32 on my disc bike, but for rim brakes I'm very happy with low spoke counts. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ergott said:


> *
> With carbon it's a no brainer. I have a wheelset that's 1022g*. More aero than any 32 spoke wheel and about a pound lighter. They are *strong enough for my daily riding and spirited sprints.* I have 32/32 on my disc bike, but for rim brakes I'm very happy with low spoke counts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Clinchers? If so I'd be curious what rim, or rims, you've had that success with? 
1022g is low enough to make me re-think carbon rims. But not to re-think tubular, that I know for sure ain't for me.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I get custom wheels built from an outfit called Psimet. They've done three sets for me and they're nice. The first set I ordered the guy said to go with 28R/24F. I asked him about 32R and he said 'I can do that, but it won't make the wheel any stronger'. I took his advice. For my wife, he suggested 24R/20F. we've not had problems with any of his wheels. 

Does increased spoke tension make wheels stronger? I remember the spokes on my old 32/32 Mavic Open 4 rims with DT DB spokes having much less tension than wheels do these days.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Tubular. Do people still ride clinchers for road? 

I have done clincher versions in the 1200g range. Not hard 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

More tension does not make wheels stronger as long as the spokes have high enough tension to remain in a state of tension under normal riding conditions. 

The max tension guidelines for rims is generally the way to go. 

The strength of any given wheel is combination of the number of spokes, size of the spoke, strength of the rim, and bracing angle of the spokes. 

I recommend only minimizing the number of spokes after taking into account the other factors plus the size and strength of the rider, the type of riding the wheels will be used for, and the amount robustness or safety factor the rider would like built into the wheels; that is accounting for riding events outside of normal riding conditions.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Getting a charge out of passing someone that has no clue there's competition going on is not for me.


Exactly. I laugh hearing clowns bragging about passing someone on a nice bike or whatever. It means absolutely nothing at all. Maybe they are coming back from sickness, riding an easy day, coming back from an injury. . .


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## Lallement (Mar 1, 2014)

Notvintage said:


> Exactly. I laugh hearing clowns bragging about passing someone on a nice bike or whatever. It means absolutely nothing at all. Maybe they are coming back from sickness, riding an easy day, coming back from an injury. . .


Good things to consider. As people pass me I can yell out "Hey, this is my recovery day!"


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Lallement said:


> As people pass me I can yell out "Hey, this is my recovery day!"


In the past I've yelled "Hey - Eddy Merckx......I'm dragging 64 ****ing spokes around!". Then they fall back with a sheepish embarrassed grin and ride 30' behind me. I kid you not.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> In the past I've yelled "Hey - Eddy Merckx......I'm dragging 64 ****ing spokes around!". Then they fall back with a sheepish embarrassed grin and ride 30' behind me. I kid you not.


 But what are the chances that the actually know who Eddy Merckx is?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> But what are the chances that the actually know who Eddy Merckx is?


Say it assertive enough and they know it must be someone important.


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## Doug B (Sep 11, 2009)

Lombard said:


> I don't know very many people who HAVEN'T cracked a Bontrager rim - especially when they were doing the paired spoke design. Yours truly for one! 4K miles and the rear wheel was toast. And I only weigh 175lbs!


I've got a rear Bontrager with cracks around a few of the holes. It's hanging on the wall in the garage. 5500 miles on it. But I'm a card carrying Clydesdale at 220 pounds.


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## Chaim (Sep 13, 2021)

I am 57 and 210 lbs and put on wheels with 32 spokes, 105 hubs and dt swiss rims. I have more expensive wheels that are 24 count bladed spoke. Got very surprised how well they climbed. It seem more expensive wheels couldn't handle the torque and are much less rotationally stiff. Now I am shooting up the hills ( I live in Northern NJ ( usa)) and it is very hilly with 10 to 15 percent that can last a mile. The bike has come alive. The trade off is that i can tell its not a fast down hills, but that's a trade off I will gladly make as I have ample power for the downhills. Now I am excited to find someone to build me a high performance set of wheels with bladed spokes and good hubs.....


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Try psimet. They build all my wheels. WI T11 hubs, HED Belgium rims, Sapim cxray spokes. You can do 28R/24F that will perform just as well as 32/32.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pmf said:


> Try psimet. They build all my wheels. WI T11 hubs, HED Belgium rims, Sapim cxray spokes. You can do 28R/24F that will perform just as well as 32/32.


Personally, I would do 24F/32R for a rim brake wheel set. The front doesn't have any twisting forces like the rear does, so it doesn't flex.


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