# More Phil and Paul Hate - Enough With the MTB Handling Skills Gunk



## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Honestly, I don't believe that coming from an MTB background makes you a good road descender. Remember Rasmussen. His bike handling skills are a joke. I am getting frocking tired of Phil and Paul pointing out who was an MTB'r and how good they descend. Today's stage comes to mind. All this yippity yap about Cadel and how Wiggo can't keep up with him on the descent into the finish. Oh yea, we are going to see something special from Cadel on the descent. Bite me. Same deal with Kessiakoff. Per Phil and Paul, he should have caught up to, and blown by Pinot, on the descent. Give me a fricking break. 

There is absolutely no evidence supporting Phil's and Paul's claims about mountain bikers. Indeed, there is more evidence to the contrary. The next time they mention mountain biking skills, I am going to rip out my own eyes and puke into my dead skull.

PS: NO RANT OFF!!! TO BE CONTINUED.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Wow, it really makes you that mad?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

save your rage and try to focus it on something more positive, like for example, climate change, the middle east peace, global waste management or human parts trafficking 

HTH


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

I don't really care for P&P, and I think they play the mountain biking background bit a little too strongly. 

However I agree that riders with MTB backgrounds seem to have great handling skills and also seem to be great descenders in general. I'm not saying that they are always better, or that it is the only way to be better, but it just seems like the guys who ride off road a great deal or have that in their backgrounds seem to descend and handle well. There are some exceptions such Rasmussen, so it's not a given.

Floyd was a ridiculous descender and bike handler. Lance was probably even better and he raced MTBs a good deal. Zabriskie is a good descender who rides off road a good deal. 

A really good example is Ryder Hesjedal. Last year in the AToC he was on a breakaway with another token Rabobank rider. Ryder set a ridiculous pace and the guy that was with him could barely keep up until he finally missed a turn and bailed out.

Why didn't Cadel leave Wiggo on the descent? Maybe Cadel isn't that good at descending, but it is probably more like the descent was easy enough that no advantage good be gained. It's kind of like Auto Racing. A bad driver and a good driver in equal cars will run even on an easy track like Michigan, but the men will be seperated from the boys at Laguna Seca or Watkins Glen.


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## flyrunride (May 2, 2012)

DZfan14 said:


> I don't really care for P&P, and I think they play the mountain biking background bit a little too strongly.
> 
> However I agree that riders with MTB backgrounds seem to have great handling skills and also seem to be great descenders in general. I'm not saying that they are always better, or that it is the only way to be better, but it just seems like the guys who ride off road a great deal or have that in their backgrounds seem to descend and handle well. There are some exceptions such Rasmussen, so it's not a given.
> 
> ...


I agree, maybe when the rain comes + longer descents that's where we'll see those with really good reaction time + bike handling skills.


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## Mud (Feb 5, 2002)

I (respectfully) disagree. While maybe a generalization, I believe my 20 years mountain biking on pretty nasty trails has given me a lot of skills and confidence when descending and cornering on a road bike. While not a pro by any means, I do a fair number of triathlons, and I scream past most roadies on the descents and in the corners - it's easy time gains. Of course, I give it all back on the climbs.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

As I've said to a few other Phil & Paul bashers around here...

Post a link to the YouTube video of you offering your scintillating (and error-free) commentary for 4 hours of a live tour broadcast.

Until then, maybe try showing some respect.


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## txzen (Apr 6, 2005)

Chicken did reasonably well until on a TT bike, which he clearly never practiced on.

Michael Rasmussen in slottijdrit Tour 2005 - YouTube


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## Unica (Sep 24, 2004)

Mud said:


> I do a fair number of triathlons, and I scream past most roadies on the descents and in the corners - it's easy time gains. Of course, I give it all back on the climbs.


If you're doing triathlons, those aren't rodies you're passing...


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## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

Sorry you're so miserable and you don't know how to mtn bike!


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Opus51569 said:


> As I've said to a few other Phil & Paul bashers around here...
> 
> Post a link to the YouTube video of you offering your scintillating (and error-free) commentary for 4 hours of a live tour broadcast.
> 
> Until then, maybe try showing some respect.


So if my doctor sucks a$$ and botches my surgery, I should have performed it myself? For crying out loud. When did it become disrespectful to criticize a professional's performance of their craft? Indeed, they should be highly scrutinized. Letting them slide is disrespectful to their profession and the sport.

My take is that the mountain bike analogies suck. If that is disrespectful, I guess I am going to hell.


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## Levelheadsteve (Jun 27, 2010)

I think Phil and Paul are right.


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

Tschai said:


> So if my doctor sucks a$$ and botches my surgery, I should have performed it myself? For crying out loud. When did it become disrespectful to criticize a professional's performance of their craft? Indeed, they should be highly scrutinized. Letting them slide is disrespectful to their profession and the sport.
> 
> My take is that the mountain bike analogies suck. If that is disrespectful, I guess I am going to hell.


Wow. Just Wow. There's a big difference between a doctor doing surgery and two guys talking for 4 hours about a bike race. One is life and death and the other is just two guys talking for four hours about a bike race. 

While we're in rant mode. I hate it when Phil and Paul gets all historical about chateaus. I mean, who gives a flying fig. Right? Try watching the Tour with the volume off. You'll feel better.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

JaeP said:


> Wow. Just Wow. There's a big difference between a doctor doing surgery and two guys talking for 4 hours about a bike race. One is life and death and the other is just two guys talking for four hours about a bike race.
> 
> While we're in rant mode. I hate it when Phil and Paul gets all historical about chateaus. I mean, who gives a flying fig. Right? Try watching the Tour with the volume off. You'll feel better.


Wow how? Opus' premise is that it is disrespectful to critique Phil and Paul absent doing what they do. The ridiculousness of this premise is demonstrated by the doctor analogy. Of course a doctor and a sports announcer are not the same. It is the nexus between criticizing one and the other that counts. Just like it is not disrespectful to criticize an actor's performance, even when one is not an actor. How important an actor is within our society is an entirely different matter.

In any case, this thread was meant to be more silly than serious. But I do find the chateaus stuff very interesting. I have often wondered how much they really know about such things and how much is fed to them for the broadcast.


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## bluelena69 (Apr 19, 2005)

as I said on another ***** thread, 1st world problems. I have been watching since the Phil Tesh days, so I will never understand complaints about 2-4 hours per day, I don't care who is calling the action.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

Tschai said:


> Honestly, I don't believe that blah blah blah MTB'r and how good they blah blah blah. Bite me. blah blah Give me a fricking break.
> 
> There is absolutely no blah, blah, blah...The next time they mention mountain biking skills, *I am going to rip out my own eyes and puke into my dead skull.*


Please make sure someone is recording that when it happens. I think I can say with confidence that the footage is going to go viral when it's posted on YouTube. 

Maybe your survivors can persuade P&P to provide commentary of the vid ..... wouldn't that be a hoot?


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## OhSnap (Jun 21, 2012)

I really enjoy both of them, very thankful someone covers the sport. Where the heck is ESPN on this one? MMA is the new love child and never a sniff about the tour.


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## squarewave (Jul 20, 2009)

All part of their charm...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Christ, it's obvious nobody here knows who Harmon/Kelly are...


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Tschai said:


> Wow how? Opus' premise is that it is disrespectful to critique Phil and Paul absent doing what they do.


No. I just want the opportunity to post my rant about how badly you [email protected] at commenting on a tour stage. 

The "respect" part comes from the fact that they've been doing this longer than some of us have been alive, and if you tried it yourself, you might gain some appreciation for how difficult it actually is. Like them or not, they've forgotten more about cycling history than you or I will likely ever know. You can show respect for that and still critique their performance and point out things you think they get wrong.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Sorry, Tschai. Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder or mountain bikers - and Phil and Paul just bring it out. I've been riding for almost 40 years and yep - there's a solid connection between mountain biking and handling skills. Simple logic really. Not a reason to get all whiny. Deal with it. Maybe hit the trail, improve your handling skills and relax a bit. Mountain bikers are more laid back too... might rub of on you ;-)


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## yongkun (Aug 9, 2010)

Kelly makes me want to sleep with his mono tone and low key voice. Paul sherwin has to be the best!!!


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> Christ, it's obvious nobody here knows who Harmon/Kelly are...


Give me British Eurosport any day.
I feel like the American announcers are announcing for people that have never or rarely watched the sport before, tons of fluff. Endless LA references.
Harmon and Sean Kelly treat the audience as if the sport has been around for a while and we might have some intelligence. I love the insight that Kelly brings as a ex-racer/badass.
Who is the other guy that has been in the booth? He is hilarious and I guess more than a little full of it.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Let me preclude this statement by saying that nowadays the vast majority of bike racing that I watch is commented on by Kelly/Harmon. 

It is true that the "American" announcers are announcing for people that have never or rarely watched the sport before. 

This thread reminds me of when I was first getting into cycling and the way that the road cycling "community" made me feel. It is absolutely fine to prefer the Eurosport commentary over Phil/Paul but the error occurs with the assumption that Phil/Paul are doing something _wrong_ or disrespectful to the ambiance or history of the sport by the way that they comment on races. This is the same attitude that feels that there is something sacred about the exclusive nature of road cycling and that the snootiness/elitism is part of cycling's lifeblood and that it is wrong to open up to beginners (especially if said beginners aren't European, through some people's perspective). Today, I own five bicycles, ride all of the time, and I'm comfortable conversing about cycling with anyone here. However, it was not that long ago that I was completely ignorant to cycling lore. This was not because I was the product of American ignorance and disregard for the trump sport of cycling. It was because I was an American that grew up in poor rural Appalachia in a culture that simply preferred other sports like baseball and football. I came across professional cycling by happenstance and fell for it immediately. What I found was narrated by Phil/Paul and I was able to follow along and learn the rules to this complicated sport because it was being presented in a manner that could be processed by someone like myself who had never watched the sport before. Having things like drafting and the rules to the inner competitions (points jersey and KOM and so forth) explained over and over was necessary for me to be able to process everything that was going on. I am an intelligent person and the fact that I was part of an audience that had simply not been exposed to very much professional cycling did not mean that I was stupid nor that its presentation was disrespectful to the fact that the sport has been around for a while. Every once in a while I like to tune into a Phil/Paul narrated race for nostalgia's sake. 

To be clear, the same scenario could play out in the United States with a different sport and would be just as rude. If a European family moved to the United States with a teenage boy cycling fan, he could potentially be treated badly by American boys who knew decades of American Football or baseball stats because he didn't have much knowledge about these sports or their history. That would be pretty rude, no? 

If you prefer Eurosport that is great; watch it. Please don't think that Americans who aren't knowledgeable of cycling aren't intelligent or that there is something inherently wrong with a commentary style that makes this complicated sport accessible to them and draws them in. I believe that cycling viewership is up in the United States right now and that is a good thing. :thumbsup:


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Also, what is the evidence to the contrary (that road cyclists descend better that mountain bikers)? Going downhill on single track is scary and difficult and I am certain that I can descend better on the road because of mountain biking experience. There are exceptions to everything but there are some very good descenders in the peloton that come from a MTB background and I don't think that it is wrong to assume that their MTB background may have improved their skills.


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## MoonHowl (Oct 5, 2008)

I like Phil and Paul.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

I quite like P & P too ... seems like watching cycling is different with another commentary, not that they are not good. Just like F1 when Murray Walker was commenting. It took awhile to get used to another commentary once he retired. Bottom line: It is what you like/prefer. That is why we all ride different bikes. We all like different things for different reasons. etcetera etcetera ... Man!!! ... I am sure if you look close enough, we all look different too ... 


I started cycling on a MTB bike ... yes ... you shift your weight around more, back to front and side to side, and coming down quickly and leaning the bike over and sometimes a touch of brakes to slide the rear just to make the turn, but I do not see how the skills gained there can be applied when I am on the road?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Every year, every frigging year. 

These PnP hate threads pop up like pimples.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Personally, I look forward to July and seeing P&P doing the Tour commentary every day. I record the early AM broadcast so I can fast forward through all the commercials and all the filler with the other "hosts". Yes, it is "Americanized' and they may be hitting the mountain bike skils a little too hard this year, but they do get it right most of the time and it makes for an enjoyable evening. July won't be the same with either or both of them hang up the headphones.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

They do come up every year, everywhere. Everyone here obviously has internet access so I can't imagine why they listen to commentators they don't like.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

OldZaskar said:


> Sorry, Tschai. Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder or mountain bikers - and Phil and Paul just bring it out. I've been riding for almost 40 years and yep - there's a solid connection between mountain biking and handling skills. Simple logic really. Not a reason to get all whiny. Deal with it. Maybe hit the trail, improve your handling skills and relax a bit. Mountain bikers are more laid back too... might rub of on you ;-)


Well, the simple logic you reference is more of an assumption than anything else. Saying it just is because it just is, is not proof of anything. You also assume I have a chip on my shoulder for mountain bikers and that I don't ride in the dirt. Fact is, I am an avid mountain biker. I have nothing against mountain bikers or their skill. I just don't see a connection between mountain biking, especially racing mountain bikes, and road descending.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

In Phil and Paul's defence, I will say this: I ride road and mountain bike, and although any decent mountain biker can descend any road fairly well, a decent roadie cannot necessarily descend well on a mountain bike trail.

I find that my mountain biking skills have helped in some situations on the road. That's not to say a roadie needs to mountain bike to be a good descender on the road, but it certainly doesn't hurt.

Red Bull has had the Road Rage series in the past, sometimes won by a mountain biker, sometimes by a roadie, but I hazard a guess that the mountain bikers would smoke the roadies on a downhill mountain bike course.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

So I guess I have to add "bash Phil/Paul and watch the Harmon/Kelly broadcast of the Tour exclusively" to the list of things I need to do to be considered a "real cyclist" by the bike riding intelligencia.

Question....does this task come before or after shaving my taint on that list?


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## lgh (Feb 21, 2006)

Unless I'm mistaken, the descender in question overcooked a turn and did a classic rear lockup to bail himself out. Cool off road trick.

Larry


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

Jwiffle said:


> In Phil and Paul's defence, I will say this: I ride road and mountain bike, and although any decent mountain biker can descend any road fairly well, a decent roadie cannot necessarily descend well on a mountain bike trail.
> 
> I find that my mountain biking skills have helped in some situations on the road. That's not to say a roadie needs to mountain bike to be a good descender on the road, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
> 
> Red Bull has had the Road Rage series in the past, sometimes won by a mountain biker, sometimes by a roadie, but I hazard a guess that the mountain bikers would smoke the roadies on a downhill mountain bike course.


Word. 

Summary... Phil and Paul are right.
Get over it, get a MTB and improve those skills.

Then you have supernatural roadies who can really kill a descent like Nibali. He can keep up with Cadel and probably outdescend him.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

RkFast said:


> So I guess I have to add "bash Phil/Paul and watch the Harmon/Kelly broadcast of the Tour exclusively" to the list of things I need to do to be considered a "real cyclist" by the bike riding intelligencia.
> 
> Question....does this task come before or after shaving my taint on that list?


Shave your taint later. People are more likely to know that you are watching the wrong commentators.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Every year, every frigging year.
> 
> These PnP hate threads pop up like pimples.


Unfortunately for them, Phil and Paul have more mass market appeal which thus makes people who poo-poo them automatically cooler. 

Anybody remember when Tiger Woods showed up on the professional golf circuit? I was never much of a Woods fan but when there were suddenly huge crowds of people following him around the course, giving him huge cheers instead of polite little golf-claps, the luddites went crazy, which I found to be very silly. The exclusivity of their sport was threatened, the bother of which outweighed the fact that all of a sudden lots of people were watching and caring about golf.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Don't know who is that Phil or Paul.

Me, I watch the tour with Thierry and Laurent, and the giro with Andrea and Beppe.


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

Funny stuff. Lucky enough to have a deep appreciation for both racing disciplines. I can say hands down MTB racing made me much more comfortable racing my road bike. On the other side of that coin fast crits and the speed of road racing made me a better racer on higher speed MTB sections or courses.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Tschai said:


> In any case, this thread was meant to be more silly than serious. But I do find the chateaus stuff very interesting. I have often wondered how much they really know about such things and how much is fed to them for the broadcast.


Silver platter and spoon. The Tour organizers have a deep payola scheme based on getting screen time for the tourist sights along the way.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

OhSnap said:


> I really enjoy both of them, very thankful someone covers the sport. Where the heck is ESPN on this one? MMA is the new love child and never a sniff about the tour.



Does anyone remember when ESPN did cover the Tour? 1/2 hour summary shows every day that aired at a different time in the middle of the night. You really had to love cycling to track down that crap. I taped it every night!


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## markrhino (Nov 28, 2011)

Love P&P. Rarefied air uphill, MTB skills downhill. lol.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

I have been really excited by the downhill battle between ex MTBer Chris Froome and roadie Vincenzo Nibali. It's fun watching Nibali under such pressure.

Oh, wait.


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