# Has Campy really better ergonomy ?



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I read everywhere in this forum about the better shifter ergonomy on Campy shifters.

I made an actual comparison between the 2 sets I could have at hand, roughly equivalent.

Chorus 10 speed vs Ultegra SL 10 speed. 

I posted that on another thread but here are my observations so we can discuss about.

People say Campy fit better their smaller hands or fit better women's hands,

I have measured the reach from the drops to the levers on the chorus and on the ultegra and they are the same. they would be shorter using the R-700 pads.

the Ultegra STIs look a bit bulkier, but the widht and height and reach an the hood top is the same on chorus and ultegra ( 3cm, 3.7cm, 6cm). Just the "head" of the STIs is larger on the Ultegra which gives you one more holding position that Chorus doesn't have. Ultegra shape is a little rounder while Chorus is flatter on the top

however, you can have shorter reach on Ultegra shifters, using the R-700 pads ( you'd have to cut out one of the prongs )

about usability :

You can upshift the cogs or downshift the cranks easily on the Ultegra from the drops, you can't do that on the Chorus ( due to the thumb shifter )

You can only shift 3 cogs on ultegra vs 10 on the Chorus ( but you rarely need to shift more than 2 ) however you need 3 strokes to upshift 3 cogs on ultegra while you can do it on one stroke with chorus ( this is a chorus advantge even though the multistrokes on shimano doesn't bother much ). the nature of the brake lever/shifter on ultegra could make you shift unadvertidely while braking though.

Am I missing something about the Chorus lever ergonomy ?

Why it is better if all measurements are the same ?

please explain


----------



## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

It's in the shape and geometry of your hands. Everyone has different hands. Just because you find them both comfortable, doesn't mean everyone else will. I find Shimano levers very uncomfortable. Campy levers fit me much better. Incidentally, I don't have any trouble with the thumb button from the drops.


----------



## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

JoelS said:


> It's in the shape and geometry of your hands. Everyone has different hands. Just because you find them both comfortable, doesn't mean everyone else will. I find Shimano levers very uncomfortable. Campy levers fit me much better. Incidentally, I don't have any trouble with the thumb button from the drops.



+1 on that. My Dad rides Shimano and I have had Campy on my bikes. I don't like the feel of the shimano very much but it's all personal pref. of course ymmvbbb


----------



## theBreeze (Jan 7, 2002)

Salsa_Lover said:


> People say Campy fit better their smaller hands or fit better women's hands,
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## Kai Winters (Aug 23, 2009)

I prefer Campy Record/Chorus over Shimano Ultegra.
I have small hands and find the Campy levers more comfortable and easier to reach and use. I do not dislike Ultegra...raced/rode Ultegra 9 speed for 5 solid years before relegating the grouppo to my spare bike...the rear derailleur shifter starting having a problem with one of the detentes requiring an upshift to the next gear then drop down to hold the gear I wanted.

Compared to the gear I started out on in the early 80's any of the Campy/Shimano levers are an improvement...except the Campy levers designed for people with giant hands that could tear a phone book in half.


----------



## Tytelynes (Jan 31, 2007)

Salsa_Lover said:


> the Ultegra STIs look a bit bulkier, but the widht and height and reach an the hood top is the same on chorus and ultegra ( 3cm, 3.7cm, 6cm). Just the "head" of the STIs is larger on the Ultegra which gives you one more holding position that Chorus doesn't have. Ultegra shape is a little rounder while Chorus is flatter on the top


Why is it no one remembers when the clunky hoods on the Shimano levers allowed a musset to get ahold of Lances bike and dash it to the ground during the Tour a few years back?
Looking at current set-ups, it appears to me many are very Campy-looking these days.
'Jes sayin'


----------



## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I've had lots of experience with Campy & Shimano. Presently i have 2 Shimano equipped bikes. They're both excellent gruppos, but I like Campy's ergonomics better. I'm a big guy with big hands. I cannot shift to a smaller cog or chain ring while in the drops on the Shimano 105 or Dura Ace. I literally have to remove my hand from the bar to shift. Moving the big lever is less of a problem, although sometimes I move both levers together, particularly in winter when I'm wearing gloves. Wearing winter gloves I have a hard time finding the small lever unless I look at it. The shifting action, e.g., force needed to shift is lots better on the Shimano, where Campy tends to feel a bit clunky.

Campy hoods are lots more comfy than the Shimano's. Although the action is stiffer, I really appreciate the separation of the controls on the campy levers. No double shifts, no non shifts, no missed shifts with the Campy. I also found it be be lots more intuitive than the Shimano system. I know you shouldn't do this, but I like the fact that you can downshift to a larger cog under full power with the Campy equipment and it doesn't complain too much. The Shimano REALLY doesn't deal with this well. Being able to down shift to a larger cog more than one gear at a time, as well as being able to "dump" several gears at once during a sprint or downhill run is great on the Campy. Can't do it on the Shimano.

So...Mr. V - how come you don't have Campy stuff instead of Shimano stuff on your bikes?

Simple economics Grasshopper. Simple economics. Besides I'm not at all unhappy with the Shimano products. I just like campy a little better.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

The new Campy shifters are worlds better than any Shimano shifter I've ever used. Of the Shimano STIs, the Ultegra 9 speed was my favourite. 

The saying "Campy wears in, Shimano wears out" is true, IME. With many STIs, I'm never sure if I've shifted if I'm using a close-ratio cassette. With Campy, I know I've shifted. With Shimano, I've done half-shifts before because there's no feedback in the shift levers. I've never done that with Campy.

I have short, stubby thumbs, and I can shift from the drops just fine. I also don't like my brake lever moving, which is one of the reasons I like SRAM and Campy.


----------



## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

I've tried all three brands. Shimano shifted the smoothest, Sram takes more effort to upshift, Campy downshifted the fastest.

Comfort and ergonomics for me went to Sram. I like the wide and stubby feel of the Sram hoods. I can brake effectively from the hoods. The Shimano and Campy...with their straight levers and low pivot made my hand cramp on long descents. Since I have small hands I cannot shift well on either Shimano or Campy. In the drops I can barely reach the lever to upshift on Shimano and can't reach the thumb lever to downshift on the Campy.

The Sram levers allow me to shift and brake effectively from both the hoods and the drops...Shimano and Campy is either or...but not both.


----------



## seeborough (Feb 3, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Just the "head" of the STIs is larger on the Ultegra which gives you one more holding position that Chorus doesn't have. Ultegra shape is a little rounder while Chorus is flatter on the top


If you are describing a hand position with the palm resting on the "head" and your fingers in front of the brake lever, your statement is inaccurate.


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

PlatyPius said:


> The new Campy shifters are worlds better than any Shimano shifter I've ever used. Of the Shimano STIs, the Ultegra 9 speed was my favourite.
> 
> The saying "Campy wears in, Shimano wears out" is true, IME. With many STIs, I'm never sure if I've shifted if I'm using a close-ratio cassette. With Campy, I know I've shifted. With Shimano, I've done half-shifts before because there's no feedback in the shift levers. I've never done that with Campy.
> 
> I have short, stubby thumbs, and I can shift from the drops just fine. I also don't like my brake lever moving, which is one of the reasons I like SRAM and Campy.


I agree that the new style Campag shape is nicer, and the new style Shimano is really similar to the newly-old Campag shape. 

However, having encountered several people in real life who complain about the reach of their Campag levers and shift mechanism, I found that in most cases it is because whoever built their bike didn't really know how to set up a Campag cockpit. The levers end up on the wrong angle relative to the handlebars. For a few of them, I simply adjusted both the handlebar-stem angle and the position of the levers, and they end up very happy. 

Platy, being a bike shop owner maybe you've encountered this, too? 

The old style Shimano levers appear to be more forgiving to positioning error, even if they appear as antlers when mounted too high. Maybe they just like to build in installation error margins, just like the way the wheel jockey cage on the RD has some lateral play ... jessaying.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

orange_julius said:


> I agree that the new style Campag shape is nicer, and the new style Shimano is really similar to the newly-old Campag shape.
> 
> *However, having encountered several people in real life who complain about the reach of their Campag levers and shift mechanism, I found that in most cases it is because whoever built their bike didn't really know how to set up a Campag cockpit. The levers end up on the wrong angle relative to the handlebars. For a few of them, I simply adjusted both the handlebar-stem angle and the position of the levers, and they end up very happy.
> 
> Platy, being a bike shop owner maybe you've encountered this, too? *


Aye. Positioning is critical with Campy shifters. Back in the day, one of the brands (now defunct) had a range of bikes equipped with Campy. Part of the build was to unwrap the tape, move the shifter to the proper position, and re-wrap the tape. They just couldn't seem to get it right.

If the shifter is in the proper place, the shifting works better and both levers are accessible from the hoods and the drops.


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

*Teach us*



PlatyPius said:


> Aye. Positioning is critical with Campy shifters. Back in the day, one of the brands (now defunct) had a range of bikes equipped with Campy. Part of the build was to unwrap the tape, move the shifter to the proper position, and re-wrap the tape. They just couldn't seem to get it right.
> 
> If the shifter is in the proper place, the shifting works better and both levers are accessible from the hoods and the drops.


OK Platy, you're the pro so this is a great point in the thread for you to post a pic of how Campag shifters should be mounted!


----------



## JasonK (Oct 6, 2005)

Hear, hear. I too would like to see "proper" Campy shifter placement. Photo please!


----------



## bikemoore (Sep 8, 2005)

*just personal preference*

I have bikes with Shimano 9, Campy 8 and Campy 10. They all work very well, but my preference is the Campy for following reasons:

1) I find Campy hoods, especially the 10-speed, more comfortable for my hands. My hands are XL.
2) I like Campy's greater separation of up & down shifting functions between the thumb shifter and the finger lever.
3) I like Campy's separation of braking and shifting (since the brake lever doesn't swing side-to-side)...provides more positive braking feel. I've never accidently shifted under braking with Shimano, but the fact that the Shimano lever has two degrees of freedom makes the braking feel less sure than the Campy brake levers with their single degree of freedom...especially down hill at speed.

That said, I'm actually quite happy with either one. No trouble switching back and forth between and they both funtion very well.

And Campy, like every other mechanical device that actually gets used and unlike its legend, does eventually wear out after breaking in. My Chorus 8-speed brifters have nearly 50K miles and 16 years on them. They need a rebuild as the rear will shift down a gear on its own when I hit sharp frost-heaves or dips. Not a complaint about its longevity because they have lasted and functioned extremely well over the years and miles....but they are not immortal and I am currently agonizing whether or not I should upgrade my precious '94 Pinarello Gavia from the old 8-speed Chorus to a 10- or 11-speed group. Unfortunately, that requires replacing everything but the brake calipers.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

It is somewhat personal preference. That said, I think many ppl (though not all) disliked the shape of the OLD Shimano shifters/brifters/hoods.

The new Shimano shifter shape is better, but still not as good as Campy or SRAM, in my opinion.

For me it goes

Campy > SRAM > new Shimano > old Shimano. 


As always, YMMV. But tons of ppl do seem to rave over the shape and feel of the Campys.
.


----------



## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

PlatyPius said:


> I have short, stubby thumbs, and I can shift from the drops just fine. I also don't like my brake lever moving, which is one of the reasons I like SRAM and Campy.


+1, I have a small hand, wear a men's Small. I have absolutely no problem shifting the thumb levers on a Campy shifter in the drops. I really believe it's how you set them up.


----------



## vandalbob (Dec 13, 2001)

Like alot of folks have already said, it depends on your personal preference. I now have SRAM on a bike and I like the ergonomics and I like the Campy on my other bikes. Its all good.

Campagnolo is better at EVERYTHING, even ergonomics. There. It's been said. No need for another Campagnolo vs SRAM vs ShimaNO thread.


----------



## Dereck (Jan 31, 2005)

Two years ago, I rode the lot in one year - Campag, SRAM and Shimano. In the interests of fairness, I also rode one bike with downtube shifters - I mean, they worked for Eddie Merckx, they can't be all that bad 

The only correct answer to the hoary old 'which one is best' question is - which one do you like?

The three do the same - you hold them for much of your riding time. You shift gears with them. The other parts are only there to shift an oily chain over a bunch of teeth in various formations.

My observations:
1 - they all actually worked fine. Okay, the Campag let the riders around know someone's changed gear. SRAM let the neighbourhood know someone had changed gear. My best set of Shimano is a high mileage ten speed set, bought just after they were introduced. I can't hear the gears shift.

2 - See above, you better like holding them and how they shift gears. I spent more time with the SRAM moving levers and bars around to try and achieve something like a comfortable riding position. In the end, my solution involved EBay. My venture into Campag wasn't so bad, but the levers - last round of ten speed - were too short for my hands and I wasn't fussed by the lever/thumb button shifting enough to live with that. 

BTW - did you know that Campag levers and derailleurs DO shift a generic 10 speed chain over a 10 speed Shimano cassette?

Idle thought - when I did cycling very seriously, it was Campag or cheap French junk (cheap Chinese junk hadn't been invented then). So my racing bike was as much Campag as I could afford. I suspect I could live with their new 11 speed stuff, but am not that serious enough to pay out to trade my bikes and wheels over on the hope that I do.

The dumbest things to do are either get suckered by marketing or get suckered by the Campag fan club. After all, neither is going to buy you any stuff to try, are they?

Idle thought of my day. I'm such a crummy climber that being able to swing on Shimanos' big brake lever and downshift three gears at once is a brilliant idea. Having moved to Chicago and being surrounded by flat roads for miles in most directions has (A) made me happy, and (B) made that redundant, but it's still there if I wander away from my ideal sort of road (flat!)

I proved to myself that Shimano - the 10 speed much more than the 9s - was fine for me. The rest of you, I don't mind what you ride at all 

Regards

Dereck


----------



## moostapha (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm extremely suspicious of anything advertising better ergonomics. EVERYTHING called 'ergonomic' just sucks. Keyboards…drop bars…chairs…pens. I'm convinced 'ergonomic' is a synonym for postmodern, not as in the school of design but as a synonym for "weird for the sake of weird.'


----------



## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

I used Shimano 105 shifters on some Deda anatomic bars for a long time. I had trouble reaching the brakes/shifters from the drops. I just thought this was how it went.

Last year I picked up a new gruppo - Campag Centaur 2009 - with the redesigned shifters. With some Deda shallow drop Newton bars I now can reach the brakes easily from the drops. I LOVE this combination and can't believe I put up with not being able to reach my brakes for so long.

I'm not a big guy and wear small/medium gloves. I really, really like the newer Campagnolo shifters. But, I do think this can be a personal thing, as we all have different hands.


----------



## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

Can we all compare CURRENT EDITION Campy v. Shimano please?

Dragging old editions into the discussion will make the topic harder to manage.


----------



## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

new campa ergopower fits very nice on hands. u got 3 different positions for your hands. I would pick campa over shimano even athena over ultegra


----------



## nearptr (Mar 18, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> You can upshift the cogs or downshift the cranks easily on the Ultegra from the drops, you can't do that on the Chorus ( due to the thumb shifter )


Clearly you're addressing someone else. Not only can I easily shift to fewer-toothed chainrings/cogs from Campagnolo's drops with the thumb shifters, I can even do it from the TOPS with a simple movement of one or the other or both of my "ring" fingers, and sometimes I even do  . I really doubt that anybody can do that with Ultegra...


----------



## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

I was mounting some campy shifters on my new (to me) bike tonight and noticed the same thing: I can reach the thumb button from the tops. Nice. Just for shits and giggles I am using a low-normal shimano mtb derailleur in the back so for me, the thumb button will be a downshift! And so when in the drops, I can upshift very easily with the lever and not have to reach for the thumb button. I don't know how long this experiment will last, but I had the derailleur sitting here unused (swap meet impulse buy one year) and figured, what the hell. I'm using a shiftmate #2 with 10 speed campy shifters and 9-speed sram cassette. Properly frankencyclocrossbike.


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

elviento said:


> Can we all compare CURRENT EDITION Campy v. Shimano please?
> 
> Dragging old editions into the discussion will make the topic harder to manage.


I have both the new and old style hoods and I actually like the new style a little better. The on-the-hoods position is more comfortable, with more soft surface area.


----------



## satanas (Nov 8, 2002)

Both Shimano and Campag have had three basic lever shapes now unless I'm miscounting. Sram are basically at mark 1.x I think, but have zero experience with them so won't comment. 

FWIW, I have small hands (size S glove), and have found the mark 2 Shimano shape (Dura-Ace 7800) to be the most comfortable so far. For me, both the older Shimano levers (Dura-Ace 7400) and the current 7900/6700 levers are just too wide and/or square at the edges of the hoods, so I end up getting bruised and/or cramped thumbs on long rides. I've also found that the bulkier levers mean I need to use slightly narrower bars to be comfortable. I've used the older Campag shapes (8 speed and pre-Ultra) and haven't found them as comfortable as Shimano. Haven't yet used the Ultra levers, but I suspect these are what I will be using next, for a number of reasons.

I really don't think there's any way to tell "what's best" without trying them for some distance, playing with position, etc. If anyone believes reading entrenched and unscientific biases on the 'net is a viable substitute for testing themselves, I can offer thema good price on the Sydney Harbour Bridge!


----------



## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

*NEW Campy shape vs. everything else.*

I've used Shimano 9spd shifters and Campys older Ergopower shifters extensively. I've ridden with SRAM and Shimano 6700 enough to get a good feel for them. With all that being said, the Newer (read: UltraShift shape shifters) Campy levers, they're easily the most comfortable shape I've ever put my hands to on a bike ride.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*pics..*



















The new Campy ergos should have quite a bit shorter reach than Shimano. If the reach to the brake levers is a problem, that's easy to reduce with a little epoxy putty behind the quick release pin.

Here's a pic of the old and new Shimano levers. The new models should easily have 10mm more reach than Campy/SRAM.


----------



## bourquek (Jul 29, 2006)

C-40, what handlebars are you using with Campy 11? Are those Deda Elementi Zeros?


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*easton...*



bourquek said:


> C-40, what handlebars are you using with Campy 11? Are those Deda Elementi Zeros?



Easton EC90-SLX3.


----------

