# Cannondale up for sale ?



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Rumor is Canadian company Doral is working on a deal to buy Cannondale and add to their profile, so far they have GT,Schwinn and Mongoose under theit belt. If the deal goes through they might move the Cannondale production to Far East. Cannondale had a few mt bike models are now made in Taiwan along with Synapse.


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## cb400bill (Jul 26, 2007)

My Synapse has "Handmade in USA" stickers on it.


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

I don't think so the entire Synapse line is made in Taiwan, the sticker should be on the seat stay not the U.S flag on top tube.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

zamboni said:


> I don't think so the entire Synapse line is made in Taiwan, the sticker should be on the seat stay not the U.S flag on top tube.


carbon Synapse frames are made in Taiwan... It uses tube to tube construction (carbon welding) like a Scott. It's also just about the lightest frame in the Cannondale lineup.


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## stwok (Mar 15, 2007)

cb400bill said:


> My Synapse has "Handmade in USA" stickers on it.



Is your Synapse an aluminum frame ??


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## Davoosie (Mar 17, 2007)

So after this Doral company buys Cannondale I guess we can expect to see them in Wal-Mart next to the Mongoose, GT and Schwinn? Knowing big companies I would not be surprised if they shut down all US production and move it to Taiwan or (Gasp!) China. Why pay an American worker $15 an hour to assemble frames when you can pay some 10 year old chinese kid 15 cents an hour.

I dont own a Cannondale, don't really like them all that much, but would hate to see them moved out of the US.


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

What does Cannondale have going for them if they move their production to Asia? 

I really hate the idea of huge corporations mass producing bikes that were once made by craftsmen and are now made in huge factories by people who don't care. It makes me a little sick to think that another company will be moved to China so that a corporation can maximize their profit.


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## peterpen (May 5, 2004)

This 'rumor' was floating around Interbike - it's nothing new, just a rumor.


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

I hope the rumor is not true and that is one of the reason I bought Cannondale bike at the first place. Now a day every Corp is driven by profit and the only competitive edge is moving production to Asia region to save cost.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Didn't Lebron James buy a piece of Cannondale not too long ago?

Edit: yep...Of course it has nothing to do with C'dale possibly being sold

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/11953.0.html


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2007)

Cannondale went bankrupt a few years ago, it was bought out of Chapter 11 by an "Investment consortium"; that is a polite way of saying a group of bondholders looking to recover their investment by breaking the company up and selling it off.

They did not buy it for a long term hold or with the intention of operating the company on any medium term basis.


They bought it to sell it.

it will be sold, it is only a question of when.

The Synapse was designed to be built off-shore. If your bike has a Made in the USA sticker on it - I guess you shouldn't believe everything you read.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

zamboni said:


> I hope the rumor is not true and that is one of the reason I bought Cannondale bike at the first place. Now a day every Corp is driven by profit and the only competitive edge is moving production to Asia region to save cost.


If you owned a business wouldn't that be your primary objective? People go into business to make a profit, not to sit around waxing poetic about the artisan craftsmen they employ...


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## smouer (Mar 12, 2006)

Synapse Alloys are made in the US, Synapse Carbon are not


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## peterpen (May 5, 2004)

toomanybikes said:


> ...
> They did not buy it for a long term hold or with the intention of operating the company on any medium term basis.
> ...


Was their business plan made public or are you one of the investors? 

While I wouldn't be surprised if Cannondale ownership changed hands (again) at some point, I would be surprised if the new owners moved production of top-end Cdales to Asia. But if they did, I wouldn't particularly care - from a performance standpoint, more of the world's best bikes are made there than any place else.

I personally don't give a rat's @ss where my bike is made (or, for that matter, what it is made out of.) I care about geometry, how stiff it is, what it weighs - plus other assorted irrational & largely immeasurable qualities like ride quality, looks, history, current support for race teams, what I can get at a discount, if the current model year colorways match my nails, etc, etc.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2007)

I am not one of the investors.

I make my living in the Bankruptcy field and I am familiar with the group that bought, and others like them.

They are not business owners, they are looking to buy distressed bonds and thereby take control of the company, then they either break the company up, or sell it in toto, whichever drives the greatest return on the investment in distressed debt.

It is a pretty well known and common play, in this business.




peterpen said:


> Was their business plan made public or are you one of the investors?
> 
> While I wouldn't be surprised if Cannondale ownership changed hands (again) at some point, I would be surprised if the new owners moved production of top-end Cdales to Asia. But if they did, I wouldn't particularly care - from a performance standpoint, more of the world's best bikes are made there than any place else.
> 
> I personally don't give a rat's @ss where my bike is made (or, for that matter, what it is made out of.) I care about geometry, how stiff it is, what it weighs - plus other assorted irrational & largely immeasurable qualities like ride quality, looks, history, current support for race teams, what I can get at a discount, if the current model year colorways match my nails, etc, etc.


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## peterpen (May 5, 2004)

Interesting stuff. The group should make a good ROI, as it seems to me that with the SysSix and SupSix Cannondale has really remade their image in the high-end market since the new owners took over. (Although I have no idea if sales and/or profit figures have increased accordingly.)


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Toomanybikes is correct the current group want to ma out their ROI and one way is to build up the profile of the company and wait for a good offer then unload the brand and I'm sure Doral ( Canadian co.) want to expand their product lines as well, so far they lock up Jelly Bean for next two years who's know if they will continue with Liguigas if the deal goes through.


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## smouer (Mar 12, 2006)

Personally I *DO* care where my bike is made as I care where my car is made, clothes, tools etc... I care for lots of reasons; keeping/promoting skilled labor, a productive working class, any many other reasons. (Yes I realize that it's a complicated equation and it's not that straight forward....)

If other don't care or what to maximize purchasing power then you're free to do what you want with your money. 

If Pegasus wants to divest then that's their right as an investor and ultimately 'cashing out' in some from is what investing is about. 

If 'Handmade in the USA' does not offer enough value to the current or potentially new owners then customers like myself *may* be looking elsewhere for their next purchase....


http://www.pegasusinvestors.com/portfolio.asp?mode=view&fund=2&id=24


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## traumabill (Sep 16, 2007)

"so far they lock up Jelly Bean for next two years "

Do you mean Jelly Belly? Where did you see this?

Bill


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## peterpen (May 5, 2004)

He meant Doral has Jelly Belly on GT bikes.

But the idea that a company would discard a ProTour team in favor of not even a Continental Pro team is a little far-fetched.


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## jm3 (Mar 22, 2003)

Synapse frames, and the carbon mtb's, are made in China. The aluminum frames are made in the US, and are lighter than the standard carbon (a full pound) & the same weight as the SL's.

The rumors have been around for awhile. Earlier this year it was supposedly Nike, and now Dorel. We heard the rumor was a done deal, but nothing has been announced except that The President of Sugoi, owned by CDale, fervently denied it at a recent Nat'l sales meeting.

I do believe CDale needs to move the majority of manufacturing off shore to be competitive. For the most consumers, Made in the USA just isn't worth the extra money involved. Bikes made in Asia are very high quality if the manufacturer pays for it, and most consumers except this. The ethics of labor, unfortunately, are not generally considered, though I respect those who take such matters into consideration.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

jm3 said:


> Synapse frames, and the carbon mtb's, are made in China. The aluminum frames are made in the US, and are lighter than the standard carbon (a full pound) & the same weight as the SL's.
> 
> The rumors have been around for awhile. Earlier this year it was supposedly Nike, and now Dorel. We heard the rumor was a done deal, but nothing has been announced except that The President of Sugoi, owned by CDale, fervently denied it at a recent Nat'l sales meeting.
> 
> I do believe CDale needs to move the majority of manufacturing off shore to be competitive. For the most consumers, Made in the USA just isn't worth the extra money involved. Bikes made in Asia are very high quality if the manufacturer pays for it, and most consumers except this. The ethics of labor, unfortunately, are not generally considered, though I respect those who take such matters into consideration.


Manufacturing carbon is very labor intensive, welding aluminum is not close to the same cycle times. The carbon manufacturing makes sense as Asia is simply better equipped to pump out cookie cutter frames in that material (and the Scalpel, System 6, and Super Six will probably go there in the near future). But Cannondale sells the aluminum mountain caffeine frames (made in the US) for a retail of $600. You would be hard pressed to find anything of the same weight, material, and build quality that is any cheaper being produced in Asia. 

The carbon Synapse weighs in around 1000 grams (they took like 60 grams out of that on the SL), so you are claiming the aluminum is 550 grams? I highly doubt it, that would make it the lightest production frame produced. Look at the claimed weights for complete bikes, the carbon Synapse weighs at or near the same claimed weights as the Super Six and System 6 bikes (with comparable spec). 

My 2006 carbon Synapse with Campy Record and Speedplay pedals weighs 16 pounds, the aluminum won't get there with the same build.


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## robertburns3 (Jan 11, 2007)

smouer said:


> Personally I *DO* care where my bike is made as I care where my car is made, clothes, tools etc... I care for lots of reasons; keeping/promoting skilled labor, a productive working class, any many other reasons. (Yes I realize that it's a complicated equation and it's not that straight forward....)
> 
> If other don't care or what to maximize purchasing power then you're free to do what you want with your money.
> 
> ...


I agree. Also, if one cares about the environment, one of the biggest reasons to move overseas is to be able to manufacture with few environmental restrictions.

I have also heard more than once that Carbon Synapse (and eventually all carbon) production is moving to the US and more aluminum was gong overseas.


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

robertburns3 said:


> I agree. Also, if one cares about the environment, one of the biggest reasons to move overseas is to be able to manufacture with few environmental restrictions.
> 
> I have also heard more than once that Carbon Synapse (and eventually all carbon) production is moving to the US and more aluminum was gong overseas.



I disagreed more and more productions are moving to oversea due to cost of labor to mfg, beside most of the investment for carbon equipments are either in Taiwan or China


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

I don't see what the fuss is. Pegasus Capital is a private equity fund. Many small- to mid-cap companies in the U.S. are controlled by PE funds or at least have PE funds as minority investors. If they sell, they sell. Ultimately the new control group is either going to (i) maintain the status quo re Cannondale's limited use of off-shore manufacturing for its high-end bikes or (ii) move much of the U.S. manufacturing offshore. The market will tell the new control group whether this makes their holdings in C'Dale a better investment or not. 

Personally, if the manufacturing of a high-end bike like the SystemSix or SuperSix moved to India or China, NFW I would buy it. C'Dale would lose me as a customer. I would move my business to a bike company the manufactures in the U.S., Italy or France. That's why, personally, I would never buy a hand-made-in-China Cervelo. That's just personal opinion. There is no right or wrong answer here.

Footnote -- have you ever noticed that the forks on the SystemSix, Six13 and SuperSix are made in China? Look carefully on the inside (bottom portion) of the fork for the tiny label "MADE IN CHINA". So the "HANDMADE IN USA" applies strictly to the frame. That's as much slack as I give C'Dale on the China thing.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

zamboni said:


> I disagreed more and more productions are moving to oversea due to cost of labor to mfg, beside most of the investment for carbon equipments are either in Taiwan or China


Be aware that not all asian Manufacturing is in China or Taiwan. Increasingly China is now being seen as a high cost manufacturing location and bicycle manufacturing is going to locations such as Vietnam, Indonesia and India.

I dare you to try and keep up ....................

One of the reasons, not well publicized ( of course) that many carbon frames are failing to meet the public's expectation on weight is because they are not CF. There are a number of frames hitting the market made of fibreglass tubes, with CF wrap.

Those, I guarantee you, will not meet your weight expectations.


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Cannondale have bee outsource the carbon production to China for about three to four years ago, even some of theforks on Caad 7 were made byt Time MFG.

If the deal goes through I'm sure that is the direction Cannondale would take some of the low end production to China or Taiwan, in the long run Cannondale would loose market share to other MFG.


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## rlchriss (Jun 13, 2007)

Fun stuff. The carbon fork on my System Six had a made in China sticker on it. I have two Cannondales (3 if you count my wife's Synapse) and love them. Plus, I'm way too fast to care. 

That said, anyone want to sell me their SI crank for a song because that can't stand being associated with Cannondale anymore, Shoot me an email. 

Happy New Year guys.


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## jm3 (Mar 22, 2003)

I have two identical 56 cm Syanpse Carbon and Aluminum bikes in my shop right now. Every component is the same...there is a 1.1 pound difference between them.  The aluminum is lighter. The Synapse is no where near 1000 grams, nor is the SL for that matter. Great frames, awesome ride, but not lightweights...they're not meant to be. Cannondale understands that ride quality trumps weight (within reason, of course).

An aluminum CDale bicycle (full build) is, on average, about $200 more than a similarly equipped Taiwanese or Chinese bike of similar quality. They've already taken their price-point aluminum bikes to China for production, other than the SystemSix and SuperSix, I believe they'd benefit moving everything else there. Again, I completely respect those consumers who appreciate products made in the US, but those types are fewer and fewer. People shop value.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

jm3 said:


> I have two identical 56 cm Syanpse Carbon and Aluminum bikes in my shop right now. Every component is the same...there is a 1.1 pound difference between them. The aluminum is lighter. The Synapse is no where near 1000 grams, nor is the SL for that matter. Great frames, awesome ride, but not lightweights...they're not meant to be. Cannondale understands that ride quality trumps weight (within reason, of course).
> 
> An aluminum CDale bicycle (full build) is, on average, about $200 more than a similarly equipped Taiwanese or Chinese bike of similar quality. They've already taken their price-point aluminum bikes to China for production, other than the SystemSix and SuperSix, I believe they'd benefit moving everything else there. Again, I completely respect those consumers who appreciate products made in the US, but those types are fewer and fewer. People shop value.



Not sure what is going on with the bike you have but the carbon Synapse uses the same construction method as Scott (tube to tube or carbon welding-it's referred to by both names) that routinely weigh in sub 900 grams (the Scott). I guess I should get the aluminum then, my bike will be at the UCI limit since the aluminum will take a pound off the carbon, for cheaper... Your scenario would be marketing retardation at its best.


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## fueledbymetal (Sep 24, 2007)

jm3 said:


> The Synapse is no where near 1000 grams, nor is the SL for that matter.


Actually, the SL weighs 1020 grams according to this:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/tech/New_for_2007_Cannondale_Synapse_Carbon_SL_article_101964.html

And the "old" Synapse weighed 1090 accoring to this:
http://www.cannondale.com/lab_report/synapse.html

Something must be different other than the frame for there to be a 1.1 lb difference.


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## willdrop4food (Nov 7, 2007)

jm3 said:


> They've already taken their price-point aluminum bikes to China for production, other than the SystemSix and SuperSix.


Is the CAAD9 frame now made overseas as well?


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## jm3 (Mar 22, 2003)

First, my bad...I was thinking frameset, not just frame. Second, as I wrote previously, I'm speaking of the Synapse Carbon v. the Synapse aluminum - the SL is not part of this. The aluminum bike, with the exact same components, has always been a pound lighter than the standard carbon bike. We've weighed them several times, different sizes and all...there's always the same relative difference give or take an ounce, or so. Honestly, we don't care enough to take them apart and weigh everything separately. The aluminum gets the S.A.V.E. Ultra fork, the Synapse carbon just gets the S.A.V.E. - most of the difference is probably there.

We use the weight difference to educate our customers about the relative insignificance of weight when comparing bicycles. Quality of the ride is what's important, not the weight when comparing such small differences. People assume carbon is lighter, and it's not always the case. Rarely will they pick an aluminum bike over a carbon, unless price is the determining factor. In fact, if a customer's budget doesn't bring them into the realm of carbon, we don't even show it to them.

CAAD9 is still made in the US, as is the aluminum Synapse. I personally believe they're great values, but CDale's $1100 Synapse alloy bike gets Tiagra, while other manufacturers place 105 10-speed on their equally priced bikes. That's a no-brainer for most consumers at that price point. Therein lies the problem.

To the contrary of this thread, the US made SystemSix is, I believe, the absolute best deal in cycling today. $3700 for an incredible frameset, and a Dura-Ace build. That's awesome. Crummy wheels, but you can't have everything. I love that bike!


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

jm3 said:


> First, my bad...I was thinking frameset, not just frame. Second, as I wrote previously, I'm speaking of the Synapse Carbon v. the Synapse aluminum - the SL is not part of this. The aluminum bike, with the exact same components, has always been a pound lighter than the standard carbon bike. We've weighed them several times, different sizes and all...there's always the same relative difference give or take an ounce, or so. Honestly, we don't care enough to take them apart and weigh everything separately. The aluminum gets the S.A.V.E. Ultra fork, the Synapse carbon just gets the S.A.V.E. - most of the difference is probably there.
> 
> We use the weight difference to educate our customers about the relative insignificance of weight when comparing bicycles. Quality of the ride is what's important, not the weight when comparing such small differences. People assume carbon is lighter, and it's not always the case. Rarely will they pick an aluminum bike over a carbon, unless price is the determining factor. In fact, if a customer's budget doesn't bring them into the realm of carbon, we don't even show it to them.
> 
> ...


The 2006 Synapse carbon had the SAVE Ultra fork. Regardless, the frame is lighter. As I stated my 2006 Synapse Carbon with full Record, wtaer bottle cages, and pedals weighs in at 16 lbs. The aluminum won't get there with the identical build. Not saying that there aren't differences between the production bikes spec (the fork is noted) but frame to frame, the carbon is lighter.


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