# SRAM Red vs SRAM Force opinions please.



## stover

Don't want to start a debate but I am looking for comments from riders who have used both SRAM Force and SRAM Red groups. I have only ridden on SRAM Red once for about and hour and would like to know how Force compares. Comments? I ride Shimano stuff right now but am planning a build soon and thinking about SRAM.


----------



## frdfandc

The difference is in the right shifter. Red has Zero Loss in both shifters, Force only has it in the left. Then there is a weight difference.


----------



## stover

thanks. So I guess I could use Red shifters and everything else Force, etc if I wanted the Red "feel".


----------



## robdamanii

stover said:


> thanks. So I guess I could use Red shifters and everything else Force, etc if I wanted the Red "feel".


Absolutely.

I love the Red shifters. For the rest of the gruppo, Force is just about the same, with a little extra weight.


----------



## cxwrench

yes you could do that. the only difference is weight and some ceramic bearings (bb and derailleur pulleys). also, the red chainrings are stiffer so they shift better. the force front derailleur works better than the red unit as well.


----------



## MShaw

I have one bike set up with Red (Force ft der) and the rest Rival. Get the Red shifters for the better shifting (unless they've gone zero loss on all of em) and stick with Force for the rest. There's some Ti hardware and ceramic bearings on the Red stuff that makes it cost a boatload more but don't do anything except weigh less.

I haven't run a Red cassette. Its a wear item. I stick with mid-level stuff for wear items. No sense throwing away that extra $$ for something you hafta replace anyway.

M


----------



## beston

Don't buy the SRAM red FD. Stick with Force for that. The red FD is very light, but there is a clear loss of shifting performance as a result . There are a few good examples of pros riding a SRAM 'FRed' derailleur (red body with force cage).

The red cassette shifted as well as any cassette I've ever used and was very light weight. But I couldn't get over the noise it produced. YMMV.


----------



## CliveDS

beston said:


> Don't buy the SRAM red FD. Stick with Force for that. The red FD is very light, but there is a clear loss of shifting performance as a result . There are a few good examples of pros riding a SRAM 'FRed' derailleur (red body with force cage).
> 
> The red cassette shifted as well as any cassette I've ever used and was very light weight. But I couldn't get over the noise it produced. YMMV.


Check and Check - 

Also the SRAM chains are not as smooth as the Shimano chains or the KMC so as long as you are building a hybrid group consider a chain upgrade for less $$


----------



## robdamanii

I'll agree with other posters: Shimano chains actually shift much, MUCH better than the SRAM equivalents, IME.


----------



## roadie01

I've heard of some riders filling the power dome cassette with expandable spray insulation to quiet them up. Just remove the backing plate, spray in the appropriate amount of "insulation" and the resonance created by the power dome is eliminated.


----------



## roadie01

I came from a full DuraAce 7800 bike to a Sram Red/Force bike I pieced together. 

I love the Sram system, as others have stated the major differences between Sram Red and Force is the weight and finish. My bike is all Force except for the Shifters and Crank. These are the two areas where you will notice a difference. The Red crank does have stiffer rings wich will result in better shifting performance. The Force shifters have zero loss, and trim adjustment in the front and weigh 303g. The Red has zero loss in both F&R shifters and weighs 280g. Red brakes have a different finish and replace steel bolts with titanium to shave a few grams. 

I do have a new still in the box set of Sram Force shifters if anyone is interested. Just pop over to the classifieds section if your interested. 

The Sram shifting is much more tactile than the Shimano, i.e. not as light. I actually prefer the more solid feel of the Sram shifting and don't think I'll go back. Once the shift is complete the Sram is just as quiet and smooth as Shimano. The only time the Sram would not be as quiet save for poorly adjusted deraileurs or a dirty or unmaintained drivetrain would be the power dome cassette. (see my previous post for a solution).


----------



## the_gormandizer

Here is my "stable" of Scotts. The Addict has Red, the CR1 has Force. Both have Quargs with Red chainrings (Addict is compact). I have SRAM Red cassettes on both, but use a Force cassette with my training wheels. Both are equipped with KMC X10 SL chains. The noise penalty of a Red cassette is definitely lessened by the KMC chain. 

I use the Addict for hilly road races and hillclimbs, so weight is important. I really can't tell the difference in the rear shifter. The Red front shifting has always seemed softer, while the Force seems to be more harsh. I'm not sure if this is due to the increased flex of the Ti cage on Red, or due to the Gore Ride-On cables. I recently upgraded to Yokozuna Reaction cables on the CR1, but I still prefer the feel of the Red. This is very subjective; they both do the job well, and I doubt that Red can be justified purely in terms of grams/dollar.


----------



## frdfandc

robdamanii said:


> I'll agree with other posters: Shimano chains actually shift much, MUCH better than the SRAM equivalents, IME.



I'd agree with this 100% if comparing the 7800/6600/5600 chains to Srams selections. But the newer 7900/6700/5700 chains with the asymmetrical design, they are kinda clunky IMO.


----------



## capnqwest

I could post all the minute differences in weight and the substantial differences in cost but bottom line, they perform the same. I've ridden both for about 14 months and can't tell a difference honestly (aside from the aforementioned cassette noise issues).


----------



## woodys737

Stover,

IIRC the Rival FD is identical to the Force FD other than a bit different color. If you are building the group piece by piece this might be a way to save a little money. I have Red shifters, Force RD and Rival FD and it all works like a charm.


----------



## robdamanii

frdfandc said:


> I'd agree with this 100% if comparing the 7800/6600/5600 chains to Srams selections. But the newer 7900/6700/5700 chains with the asymmetrical design, they are kinda clunky IMO.


I've actually had really great shifting with an ultegra 6700 cassette and DA 7900 chain. Then again, I've gotten much more anal about cleaning and lubing too...


----------



## Kontact

Things that are worthwhile about Red: The right shifter's short throw and the light, stiff crank.

The super expensive rear derailleur with somewhat fragile carbon cage is not worth the bother, nor is the flexy front derailleur that frequently breaks at the cage weld. I think ceramic bearings are smoke and mirrors in most bicycle components - especially pulleys.


I have not seen any chain performance differences, but I've seen 7900 chains cause problems with some cranks, like Zipps.


----------



## qeaou

*Transition from Force to Red*

Interesting threat, great posts so far,
to add my 2 cents,
when I upgraded bikes i had a chance to upgrade from Force to Sram (everything except for shifters, old bike already had Red shifters but everything else was Force)
After upgrading to Red everything including cassette and chain,
The difference was really amazing! (both gruppos were well maintained)

I am sure there is a significant weight difference, but that is obviously harder to notice)
the shifting of full Red was much more nimble, saved valuable time on critical sections,
overall just seemed much more reliable especially when downshifting front derailleur, while up shifting rear. Really worth it for the quality of the ride, especially on hills.


----------



## rgordin

Are you using the latest Red or the group that was available in 2011?


----------



## qeaou

rgordin said:


> Are you using the latest Red or the group that was available in 2011?


2011 Red unfortunately.
Any big differences with the latest update?


----------



## L_Johnny

qeaou said:


> 2011 Red unfortunately.
> Any big differences with the latest update?


HUGE! The new red is very good at shifting. Specially the FD.


----------



## Camilo

Just to chime in.

I run 2011 Red drivetrain w/ Force FD on my own bike. It works really well and I'm very happy with it.

Last week I rented an Apex bike. It worked really well and I was very happy with it. I didn't specifically pay attention to the right /rear shifting on the Apex bike, but I'll have to say, the lack of "zero loss" shifting didn't even cross my mind - If there is indeed a functional difference, I noticed it not one bit. But like I said, I didn't specifically pay attention to it. If I ever get the chance to ride another non-Red Sram group, I will pay specific attention to it to see if it strikes me as being a factor at all.

I just mention that to say that my simple recommendation would be that if your price point limits you to Force (or Rival or Apex) level shifters, don't worry about it at all. It's probably not even noticable to anyone except those who do a side by side comparison AND are particularly exacting and perceptive about slight differences. On the other hand, if you can afford Red and want it, go for it and don't think twice.


----------



## old'n'slow

L_Johnny said:


> HUGE! The new red is very good at shifting. Specially the FD.


I completely agree with this. 
I just installed the new Red (Yaw) FD. The shifting difference compared to the Force FD is pretty dramatic. I'm running Rotor Q Rings and before the change, shifting was slow and spotty. The new Red FD solved most if not all of the challenges.


----------



## tigerlam92

L_Johnny said:


> HUGE! The new red is very good at shifting. Specially the FD.


I had all SRAM Red except for the FD Rival. Recently, I upgraded it to the FD YAW version and after tweaking and adjusting it properly, it is awesome. Very smooth, no sound, and quick.

Cheers
--Hugh


----------



## looigi

Have 2011 Red and Force here and agree Zero loss makes zero functional difference. I did find the Ti-caged Red FD to be inferior to the Force so put a Force FD on the Red bike. 

I'm assembling a new bike with a 2012 Red crank and yaw FD on it and everything else 2011 Red. Looking forward to trying it out.


----------



## Jason rides

With 2012 Red being improved over the 2011 version, is it much improved that you may not want Force until they upgrade it as well?


----------



## forge55b

looigi said:


> Have 2011 Red and Force here and agree Zero loss makes zero functional difference. I did find the Ti-caged Red FD to be inferior to the Force so put a Force FD on the Red bike.
> 
> I'm assembling a new bike with a 2012 Red crank and yaw FD on it and everything else 2011 Red. Looking forward to trying it out.





Jason rides said:


> With 2012 Red being improved over the 2011 version, is it much improved that you may not want Force until they upgrade it as well?


The only difference that is drastic enough to matter is the 2012 Red FD. Everything beyond that is ergonomics on the shifters or lower (albeit minor) weight differences (maybe stiffness/shifting on the crank/rings). If you can get a good deal on Force though and just really want to "upgrade" from what you are currently using, go for it.


----------



## looigi

forge55b said:


> The only difference that is drastic enough to matter is the 2012 Red FD.


Yes. That's what I've heard too. My new frame had a different BB so I needed a new crank/BB and got a deal on the 2012 Red crank. It does look different in detail, including having 6 lift pins spaced further apart than the two pair on the 2011 big ring.


----------



## myhui

*End of season sales on soon for SRAM Red 2012 ?*

I want to do a build in time for winter season riding here in Southern California, USA.

When do these annual sales start?

Has SRAM announced what's new for 2013?

If there is some irresistable piece new for 2013, then the Red 2012 may be discounted soon.


----------



## Chris Teifke

the 2012 SRAM Red is a difference maker, but there's not much difference at all among the previous generation.


----------



## Ben.

I can't afford either ^-^


----------



## nightfend

I've had 2012 Red on my new Ridley, and to be honest, going back and forth between the new Red and the older Red, there is not huge differences.

For me, the biggest difference is in the front shifting. With the new front derailleur, the front shifting is easier and you can now cross-chain the big ring and rear cassette and not get chain rub.

Cranks look nice, but I really can't tell any difference in stiffness.

Shifters feel a little longer, and the hood covers feel softer and flexier. If you run your brake cables to the outside (like I do), the new cable routing is actually a little worse, and the gel inserts they give you don't really do much to solve this.

Honestly the new brakes are weird. They don't seem to work better, but have little things that I don't like. For instance, the quick release lever is flimsy and rough, and the brakes require a flat wrench to adjust how centered they are with the wheel.

Shimano cassettes still work better than Sram cassettes. The Red cassette is just very blingy, though it doesn't sound nearly as hollow and clunky as the older Red cassette.


----------



## cxwrench

myhui said:


> I want to do a build in time for winter season riding here in Southern California, USA.
> 
> When do these annual sales start?
> 
> Has SRAM announced what's new for 2013?
> 
> If there is some irresistable piece new for 2013, then the Red 2012 may be discounted soon.


good luck w/ that. the 2012 Red IS the new Red if you haven't been paying attention. the only possible new additions for 2013 could be disc brakes, but everything else is already 'new'. not sure you'll find any 'sales' on the 2012 parts yet.


----------



## L_Johnny

nightfend said:


> I've had 2012 Red on my new Ridley, and to be honest, going back and forth between the new Red and the older Red, there is not huge differences.
> 
> For me, the biggest difference is in the front shifting. With the new front derailleur, the front shifting is easier and you can now cross-chain the big ring and rear cassette and not get chain rub.
> 
> Cranks look nice, but I really can't tell any difference in stiffness.
> 
> Shifters feel a little longer, and the hood covers feel softer and flexier. If you run your brake cables to the outside (like I do), the new cable routing is actually a little worse, and the gel inserts they give you don't really do much to solve this.
> 
> Honestly the new brakes are weird. They don't seem to work better, but have little things that I don't like. For instance, the quick release lever is flimsy and rough, and the brakes require a flat wrench to adjust how centered they are with the wheel.
> 
> Shimano cassettes still work better than Sram cassettes. The Red cassette is just very blingy, though it doesn't sound nearly as hollow and clunky as the older Red cassette.


But that is the whole difference in the world! The old red FD inspired no confidence, thus everything was iffy. With the Jaw FD, it takes a new prospective. Including making force group better by placing the jaw in.


----------



## nightfend

myhui said:


> If there is some irresistable piece new for 2013, then the Red 2012 may be discounted soon.


The only sales you will see this year into next are on the old 2011 Sram Red. Which, if you use a Force front derailleur works just fine.


----------



## myhui

nightfend said:


> The only sales you will see this year into next are on the old 2011 Sram Red. Which, if you use a Force front derailleur works just fine.


I'll go with this advice then, and just buy a marked-down 2011 SRAM Red group.


----------



## looigi

I got a 2012 Red FD at Performance for $102.74 a month or so ago. I forget exactly what the sale was.


----------



## nightfend

Check out the ebay stores (not the auctions, but the buy it now stores) as many of them have the 2011 Sram Red Black edition cheap. I especially see a lot of closeout on the cranks.


----------



## cxwrench

L_Johnny said:


> But that is the whole difference in the world! The old red FD inspired no confidence, thus everything was iffy. With the *YAW* FD, it takes a new prospective. Including making force group better by placing the *YAW* in.


ftfy...


----------



## L_Johnny

cxwrench said:


> ftfy...


indeed, thanks. Was watching Jaws the other night......


----------



## cxwrench

L_Johnny said:


> indeed, thanks. Was watching Jaws the other night......


shark week on discovery channel!


----------



## looigi

IMO, "yaw" only is significant with respect to eliminating chain rub. Improved shifting is due to the more substantial and less flexible mechanism and cage.


----------



## canemaster

Hey guys I'm building up a race bike and I already have:

Red shifters
Red crankset
Force FD

My question is with the RD. Are the ceramic bearings worth the extra $50-70 ish? I can pick up a Force RD for just under $100 ($80-90). Red on the other hand is around $150+

Thanks


----------



## cxwrench

no, they're not. do a search about ceramic bearings.


----------



## jl88s

I need your help fellas. I've searched around and can't find anything about this topic..

I'm currently building my first roadie with Sram RED 2011 groupset, Sram Force FD, but without the cranks. So I'm wondering if the new Sram RED 2012-2013 crankset would be compatible with the group I plan on running. 

According to this, the new Sram RED crankset is only compatible with the new RED groupo. I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use the new cranks with the old red group. 

https://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdn...lity-chart.jpg


----------



## cxwrench

it'll work


----------



## nightfend

jl88s said:


> I'm currently building my first roadie with Sram RED 2011 groupset, Sram Force FD, but without the cranks. So I'm wondering if the new Sram RED 2012-2013 crankset would be compatible with the group I plan on running.


It will work great. In fact, most every 10spd/11spd crankset out there from Campy to Shimano are all compatible, as long as you have the correct bottom bracket (of course).


----------



## merckx1945

*Replacing the 34T ring with a 38T ring when using a 50T ring on Compact cranks.*

One thing I'm not sure about is the compatibility or lack thereof, when considering mounting a new 38T SRAM chainring (110 BCD) on either gruppo's compact crankset having a 50T outside chainring. I'm concerned about whether or nor the shifting ramps on the 50T ring will drop the chain to the 38T chainring without any problems. The 38T offers many desired gears for some people, especially in the 38X15 thru 38X13 range -- gears which the 34 can't offer. Any experience on this issue for future similar questions would be appreciated .


----------



## nightfend

A 38 will work smoother than the 34 actually. You see, ideally the chainrings like being closer in size. So actually a drop from a 50 to a 38 would be a less severe drop. You may need to adjust the front derailleur once you switch chainrings, though.


----------



## merckx1945

A couple of bike mechanics had told me there could be a problem due to the fact that the shifting ramps on the 50T were designed with a 34T inside ring in mind. Once I know for certain that having a 38T on the inside ring will work "perfectly or even more smoothly", I will go for it. Thanks for the helpful advice up to now. Look forward to any other responses regarding this issue.


----------



## nightfend

At worst you will have a slightly slower upshift from the small ring into the big ring. Definitely worth trying.


----------



## tigerlam92

Not sure if RBR has posted this but this review on SRAM new Red backward compatible was quite useful for me.

"It works! We test SRAM Red backwards compatibility" - 

://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/news/it-works-we-test-sram-red-backwards-compatibility_209270

Just add HTTP to above since I can't add a link yet.

Cheers
--Hugh


----------



## robdamanii

Pretty sure it's been posted at least once or twice on here.


----------



## merckx1945

I've been getting relatively positive responses regarding the use of SRAM chainring compatibility when using 50T-38T combinaton on Compact cranks. My biggest concern had been with the design and use of the shifting ramps on the 50T and how they would accommodate the use of a 38T instead of the usual 34T inside ring. Thanks everyone for your repsonses. Any additional replies are still appreciated. Being that the SRAM 38T chainring is new for the company, I had never seen any feedback regarding this issue in the past.


----------



## Oscar_p

Folks
Does anyone have dates on the availability of the SRAM Force 2013 groupset (which i believe is the Red 2011, but at existing Force prices) ?

Should I: 
1) wait for the 2013 Force 
2) just go for the 2011 Force groupset that is widely available at the moment for around £700
3) Do a force 2011 / Red component mix-and-match? (e.g. Force FD, RD, Red Crank, Red shifters etc)?


----------

