# 2016 Madone vs. 2016 Venge VIAS



## Rashadabd

And the winner is.... (according to Velonews):

Clash of the Titans: Trek Madone vs. Specialized Venge - VeloNews.com


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## thumper8888

Tour Magazine agreed, and essentially for the same reasons... but it scored them both the same in the wind tunnel, rather than giving Venge a slight edge.

I feel like the differences still maybe make it a tossup, depending on how you fit on one or the other ... and personal taste.
I disagree on the aesthetics ... I give the VIAS an edge, but I'm prob in minority on that.

It was interesting in this story that we finally got something close to straight talk on the VIAS's brake issues. I suspect that they did the usual bike press thing and pulled the punch a little, but even allowing for that it wouldn't be enough to keep me off the bike.
Cavendish and Sagan disagree I guess, but they're just uh....world champions.


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## Rashadabd

Lol. Yeah, I guess I am the opposite. I appreciate what both bring to the table, but I like the Madone design a lot more and don't like the look of the front end of the VIAS much at all. But if we are talking absolute beauty, the De Rosa SK Pininfarina has to be in the discussion and near the top IMO. I have no idea what the wind tunnel numbers on that bike (and I kind of don't care all that much to be honest).


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## tranzformer

Aero difference at low yaw is minimal to non existent between the two. At higher yaw, the Trek has a slight advantage. 















thumper8888 said:


> Cavendish and Sagan disagree I guess, but they're just uh....world champions.


Same Cav and Sagan who swapped out the Venge ViAS for the older Venge or Tarmac instead of riding the ViAS? Those same two characters?


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## Rashadabd

It seems like these two and the Cervelo S5 are the big 3 when it comes to aerodynamics. I think the S5 is supposed to be the lightest and most aero overall. It's also the most affordable, but there aren't that many colors available.


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## tranzformer

Rashadabd said:


> It seems like these two and the Cervelo S5 are the big 3 when it comes to aerodynamics. I think the S5 is supposed to be the lightest and most aero overall. It's also the most affordable, but there aren't that many colors available.


Don't forget the Felt AR FRD and the Canyon Aeroad (unfortunately not sold directly here in USA currently). 

Cervelo. Felt. Trek. Specialized. Canyon. 

Pick your priority of price, weight, comfort, aero, proprietary parts, ease of purchase....etc. Those 5 are very close aero wise.


Edit: I believe you can also throw in the BMC Time Machine, Giant Propel and the new Scott Foil into that list. So make it 8.


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## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> Don't forget the Felt AR FRD and the Canyon Aeroad (unfortunately not sold directly here in USA currently).
> 
> Cervelo. Felt. Trek. Specialized. Canyon.
> 
> Pick your priority of price, weight, comfort, aero, proprietary parts, ease of purchase....etc. Those 5 are very close aero wise.
> 
> 
> Edit: I believe you can also throw in the BMC Time Machine, Giant Propel and the new Scott Foil into that list. So make it 8.


Good point, but I often disregard the Canyon bikes because they aren't a real option here as you indicated above. I like the look of the Felt AR a lot, but I am not a fan of the rear brake placement and the fact that you have to choose a mechanical or electronic frameset at all, so that one is kind of out for me as well. The AR1 comes in at a great price though.


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## Rashadabd

Rashadabd said:


> Good point, but I often disregard the Canyon bikes because they aren't a real option here as you indicated above. I like the look of the Felt AR a lot, but I am not a fan of the rear brake placement and the fact that you have to choose a mechanical or electronic frameset at all, so that one is kind of out for me as well. The AR1 comes in at a great price though.


I don't think the BMC is on the same level as these new bikes. It's last generation. We'll see how the Foil and once dominant Propel hold up in comparisons. I know the Propel still gets a lot of praise where it matter most: out on the road. It's a great bike that's fun to ride. I still see a big 3 and then a second tier under them.


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## tranzformer

Rashadabd said:


> Good point, but I often disregard the Canyon bikes because they aren't a real option here as you indicated above. I like the look of the Felt AR a lot, but I am not a fan of the rear brake placement and the fact that you have to choose a mechanical or electronic frameset at all, so that one is kind of out for me as well. The AR1 comes in at a great price though.


Canyon is supposedly going to be selling in the USA soon. I have heard that before, but this sounds the closest it ever has. Hopefully that will come to fruition.

The AR you pick electronic + 1x mechanical only (AR FRD) or electronic + regular mechanical (AR1). So if you want the option of both mechanical and electronic, grab the AR1. If you know you will only use electronic or 1x, grab the FRD. If you want the FRD and want mechanical, just run a 1x. Otherwise the AR1 is a solid frame and the same aero + comfort + stiffness as the FRD. Just has more weight from not as expensive carbon fiber and layup process. AR1 is a great frame.




Rashadabd said:


> I don't think the BMC is on the same level as these new bikes. It's last generation. We'll see how the Foil and once dominant Propel hold up in comparisons. I know the Propel still gets a lot of praise where it matter most: out on the road. It's a great bike that's fun to ride. I still see a big 3 and then a second tier under them.


BMC isn't in the same tier as the Felt/Cervelo/Trek/Specialized but it falls in the Canyon/Scott/Giant grouping.


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## tranzformer

Here is the other data from the Tour test:

#1= Specialized S-Works Venge ViAS @ 204w
= Trek Madone 9.9 @ 204w

#2= Felt AR @ 205w
Cervelo S5 @ 205w

#3= Canyon Aeroad @ 208w

#4= Giant Propel Advanced SL @ 210w

#5= BMC Timemachine TMR01 @ 211w
= Scott Foil Premium @211w


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## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> Here is the other data from the Tour test:
> 
> #1= Specialized S-Works Venge ViAS @ 204w
> = Trek Madone 9.9 @ 204w
> 
> #2= Felt AR @ 205w
> Cervelo S5 @ 205w
> 
> #3= Canyon Aeroad @ 208w
> 
> #4= Giant Propel Advanced SL @ 210w
> 
> #5= BMC Timemachine TMR01 @ 211w
> = Scott Foil Premium @211w


Good stuff, I guess my feelings on the Felt are that it's a really nice bike, but I don't have to think about the electronic and mechanical thing at all with these other bikes. They also seem to have superior cable routing systems (which always seems to be a disappointment with Felt bikes). I guess in my mind it's sort of outdated to have to choose at all, but to each his own.


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## Rashadabd

Oh and I would LOVE to see Canyon selling in the U.S. the same way I would like to see more U.S. retailers carry Bianchi and De Rosa.


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## tranzformer

Rashadabd said:


> Good stuff, I guess my feelings on the Felt are that it's a really nice bike, but I don't have to think about the electronic and mechanical thing at all with these other bikes. They also seem to have superior cable routing systems (which always seems to be a disappointment with Felt bikes). I guess in my mind it's sort of outdated to have to choose at all, but to each his own.


I think Felt is a top tier brand, especially when it comes to aero and should definitely be considered up there with Cervelo + Trek and Specialized. The guys over at Cervelo always spoke highly of the Felt options over on ST when testing against their TT and aero road bike. I think it was either Phil White or Damon Rinard that said if you couldn't ride a Cervelo, a Felt was the 2nd best choice.

That AR FRD frame is pure sex. <900g for a full aero road frame. Yes please. If you don't want to worry about mechanical vs. electronic, just go AR1 for an extra ~200g.  

Nice thing is there are a lot of options for an aero road frame right now regardless of if you want to spend $ or $$$$.

If I was debating between the Madone or Venge ViAS as my only two options, I would also have to lean the Madone route. ViAS just doesn't do it for me. Trek is probably just as fast (maybe faster at higher yaw), more comfortable, better handling, better braking and while still a lot of integration, doesn't appear as much of a PITA as the ViAS. Just my $0.02.


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## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> I think Felt is a top tier brand, especially when it comes to aero and should definitely be considered up there with Cervelo + Trek and Specialized. The guys over at Cervelo always spoke highly of the Felt options over on ST when testing against their TT and aero road bike. I think it was either Phil White or Damon Rinard that said if you couldn't ride a Cervelo, a Felt was the 2nd best choice.
> 
> That AR FRD frame is pure sex. <900g for a full aero road frame. Yes please. If you don't want to worry about mechanical vs. electronic, just go AR1 for an extra ~200g.
> 
> Nice thing is there are a lot of options for an aero road frame right now regardless of if you want to spend $ or $$$$.
> 
> If I was debating between the Madone or Venge ViAS as my only two options, I would also have to lean the Madone route. ViAS just doesn't do it for me. Trek is probably just as fast (maybe faster at higher yaw), more comfortable, better handling, better braking and while still a lot of integration, doesn't appear as much of a PITA as the ViAS. Just my $0.02.


Amen on the Trek vs. VIAS. Felts are nice but if the criteria is good looks and style, this bike has few rivals IMO:

https://cdn.coresites.factorymedia.com/rcuk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2-IMG_3098.jpg

















https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia7T4kLUP0c


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## tranzformer

Rashadabd said:


> Amen on the Trek vs. VIAS. Felts are nice but if the criteria is good looks and style, this bike has few rivals IMO:
> 
> https://cdn.coresites.factorymedia.com/rcuk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2-IMG_3098.jpg
> 
> View attachment 312099
> 
> 
> View attachment 312100
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia7T4kLUP0c



In my opinion, if it wasn't a nice paint job and didn't sport that brand logo (and history that goes with it) and was instead a generic frame, it wouldn't receive as much interest as it is. The fact it is Italian and is a "De Rosa" accounts for the majority of its interest. Let's not kid ourselves that it is cutting edge. That seat tube is a knock of the 2008 Felt AR:










and the current Canyon Aeroad for the seat tube + seat stays:


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## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> In my opinion, if it wasn't a nice paint job and didn't sport that brand logo (and history that goes with it) and was instead a generic frame, it wouldn't receive as much interest as it is. The fact it is Italian and is a "De Rosa" accounts for the majority of its interest. Let's not kid ourselves that it is cutting edge. That seat tube is a knock of the 2008 Felt AR:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the current Canyon Aeroad for the seat tube + seat stays:


They all have similarities, that's why they are in the same category. Beauty truly must be in the eye of the beholder though because the SK kills the felt in the looks department IMO regardless of who made it. The Canyon is up there on my short list of great looking aero bikes too along with the new Madone and S5. To each his own though.


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## tranzformer

Rashadabd said:


> They all have similarities, that's why they are in the same category. Beauty truly must be in the eye of the beholder though because the SK kills the felt in the looks department IMO regardless of who made it. The Canyon is up there on my shoring too along with the new Madone. To each his own though.



That Felt is 8 years old. That is an eternity in bike design. Only took De Rosa about a decade to catch up. Yet they couldn't come up with an original design for their aero road bike, unlike Cervelo, Felt, Trek and Specialized still being able to design something new, different and still cutting edge.


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## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> That Felt is 8 years old. That is an eternity in bike design. Only took De Rosa about a decade to catch up. Yet they couldn't come up with an original design for their aero road bike, unlike Cervelo, Felt, Trek and Specialized still being able to design something new, different and still cutting edge.


Look, you are mixing two different topics together in an effort to reach the conclusion that Felt is the best aero bike ever. I only said that I feel like the De Rosa is the best LOOKING aero bike. You may disagree and that's fine. When it comes to aero performance, I identified the Madone, VIAS, and S5 as the big 3. Of course Felt's and Cervelo's early work influenced the rest of the industry. That's how these things work, but each new design by other manufacturers is an important step. So, they are not actually playing catch up, they may in fact be innovating and taking valuable next steps. 

I happen to think the new Madone is actually the best overall design we have had to date in the aero sector for a number of reasons. You may disagree and see the Felt AR FRD as the best and that's cool. Do Felt and Cervelo get cool points for early adopters of aerodynamic principles, sure. Does that mean a hill of beans when it comes to discussing what is the best performing or best looking aero bike out there now, no.


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## MMsRepBike

tranzformer said:


> That Felt is 8 years old. That is an eternity in bike design. Only took De Rosa about a decade to catch up. Yet they couldn't come up with an original design for their aero road bike, unlike Cervelo, Felt, Trek and Specialized still being able to design something new, different and still cutting edge.


DeRosa didn't design anything here. In fact the DeRosa company itself is a joke, a shell of what it was founded on.

Pininfarina is the design house who designed that bike, google them, you'll be impressed.

That being said, no, it's not new, special or anything of the like. Just another copied aero bike with nothing new.


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## tranzformer

Rashadabd said:


> Look, you are mixing two different topics together in an effort to reach the conclusion that Felt is the best aero bike ever. I only said that I feel like the De Rosa is the best LOOKING aero bike. You may disagree and that's fine. When it comes to aero performance, I identified the Madone, VIAS, and S5 as the big 3. Of course Felt's and Cervelo's early work influenced the rest of the industry. That's how these things work, but each new design by other manufacturers is an important step. So, they are not actually playing catch up, they may in fact be innovating and taking valuable next steps.
> 
> I happen to think the new Madone is actually the best overall design we have had to date in the aero sector for a number of reasons. You may disagree and see the Felt AR FRD as the best and that's cool. Do Felt and Cervelo get cool points for early adopters of aerodynamic principles, sure. Does that mean a hill of beans when it comes to discussing what is the best performing or best looking aero bike out there now, no.


I am not reaching at all for anything. Please show me where I said Felt is the best aero bike in this thread? I will stand by my comment that Felt is a top aero road bike manufacturer and they are up there with Cervelo + Trek + Specialized and if not included in that list, one isn't being very objective or fair. I have the data proving that Felt is just as fast as those guys. Any contradiction to that belief would be false and a misnomer of what the fastest road bikes are. 

Regarding the looks of the De Rosa, I don't disagree that it looks nice. I was just stating they took some of their design cues from an 8 year old Felt as I pointed out above as well as from the Canyon Aeroad. That much is clear. Cervelo (rear wheel cutout on seat tube) and Felt (with the rear wheel shielding by using seat tube) have both been copied many times by other manufacturers. Being copied in design is a former of flattery. 

Again, there is no big three without including Felt to make it a big 4. You can't just cut out an equally performing bike to suit some preconceived notion of who or what should be in the list. 

I agree that for the Trek vs. Specialized for a fully integrated and proprietary aero bike, the Trek is the better option. I have never claimed the Felt AR FRD is the best, but I will state that the Cervelo S5 and the Felt AR are could very well be better options than the Trek Madone based on the fact that they are cheaper, easier to wrench on, are only ~1 watt slower and possibly could be made just as fast (or faster?) with an aero front brake like a TriRig and an integrated aero cockpit. 1w isn't too much of a difference to make up when looking at those two areas. 

Due to price + ease of wrenching + use of standard parts + within 1w as fast with stock parts, I'd still go with the Cervelo or Felt.


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## tranzformer

MMsRepBike said:


> DeRosa didn't design anything here. In fact the DeRosa company itself is a joke, a shell of what it was founded on.
> 
> Pininfarina is the design house who designed that bike, google them, you'll be impressed.
> 
> That being said, no, it's not new, special or anything of the like. Just another copied aero bike with nothing new.



:thumbsup:


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## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> I am not reaching at all for anything. Please show me where I said Felt is the best aero bike in this thread? I will stand by my comment that Felt is a top aero road bike manufacturer and they are up there with Cervelo + Trek + Specialized and if not included in that list, one isn't being very objective or fair. I have the data proving that Felt is just as fast as those guys. Any contradiction to that belief would be false and a misnomer of what the fastest road bikes are.
> 
> Regarding the looks of the De Rosa, I don't disagree that it looks nice. I was just stating they took some of their design cues from an 8 year old Felt as I pointed out above as well as from the Canyon Aeroad. That much is clear. Cervelo (rear wheel cutout on seat tube) and Felt (with the rear wheel shielding by using seat tube) have both been copied many times by other manufacturers. Being copied in design is a former of flattery.
> 
> Again, there is no big three without including Felt to make it a big 4. You can't just cut out an equally performing bike to suit some preconceived notion of who or what should be in the list.
> 
> I agree that for the Trek vs. Specialized for a fully integrated and proprietary aero bike, the Trek is the better option. I have never claimed the Felt AR FRD is the best, but I will state that the Cervelo S5 and the Felt AR are could very well be better options than the Trek Madone based on the fact that they are cheaper, easier to wrench on, are only ~1 watt slower and possibly could be made just as fast (or faster?) with an aero front brake like a TriRig and an integrated aero cockpit. 1w isn't too much of a difference to make up when looking at those two areas.
> 
> Due to price + ease of wrenching + use of standard parts + within 1w as fast with stock parts, I'd still go with the Cervelo or Felt.


I hear you and I am fine with that. All I will say is it was fairly easy to read what you have written as you advocating hard for the Felt. I acknowledged I liked the bike early on, but not as much as the S5, VIAS, and new Madone. You still continued to talk about the Felt (and you still are). When you mentioned the looks, I feel the Felt is really solid looking, but not the best. I pointed to the De Rosa as one of my favorites in the looks department. You responded by going on this diatribe about how the De Rosa was copying Felt and Cervelo, only getting attention because it was Italian, not innovative from a technology standpoint, etc. None of this had anything to do with whether it is a good looking bike in my mind unless you are trying to say the Felt is somehow more relevant or better looking because of the company's history, etc. That's all I was pointing out. Moreover, I never suggested that the De Rosa was an innovative design or a great aero bike, or the end all be all in anything but looking really good. 

With regard to short lists, again I acknowledged early on that the Felt is a great bike, but that it doesn't make MY short list because I do not like the rear brake placement and I am not interested in an electronic only $4000 frameset today. You suggested the AR1 as an alternative, but I again confirmed what I already said about not liking some elements of the design and that I prefer frames where I don't have to think about those issues and that there are options out there today where you get all of that without sacrificing performance. So, to be clear, while the Felt might make your big 4, it does not make my big 3. We just have a difference of opinion on that and we will both have to accept it regardless of what data "you have" at your disposal, etc. This is something else I pointed out multiple times. 

In sum, I like Felt bikes, I can see why someone would choose the AR and almost did myself, but for the issues I pointed out, but it is not one of MY favorite aero bikes when compared to some of the top models that have come out. You may see it differently and that is a-ok with me.


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## tranzformer

Rashadabd said:


> I hear you and I am fine with that. All I will say is it was fairly easy to read what you have written as you advocating hard for the Felt. I acknowledged I liked the bike early on, but not as much as the S5, VIAS, and new Madone. You still continued to talk about the Felt (and you still are).


I am talking about the Felt because you made some incorrect statements. You referred to Trek, Specialized and Cervelo as being the 3 best when it comes to aero performance. And that is incorrect as you can't leave Felt out of the "top" bike makers for aero road bikes. 



Rashadabd said:


> *When it comes to aero performance*, I identified the Madone, VIAS, and S5 as the big 3.


Again this is false and I'll provide you with some data.










Saying Felt doesn't belong in the top 4 is a false assertion, as the data from independent companies shows it is just as fast as the Cervelos of the world. If you are trying to be honest and talk about the fastest road bikes, you must include Felt. 

Btw, I'm not some Felt homeboy. I currently own two Cervelos, a Felt, a Specialized, two Looks and two Cannonades in my stable. So don't take my comments as coming from someone that is blinded by company loyalty. All I am blinded to is data. 

If you wanted to say the top three in terms of looks to you are Trek, Specialized and Cervelo, that would be perfectly fine. But when you try and create a hierarchy for aero performance and leave out Felt, you are doing this forum and community a disservice and that needs to be pointed out with the reality of the matter. 





Rashadabd said:


> When you mentioned the looks, I feel the Felt is really solid looking, but not the best. I pointed to the De Rosa as one of my favorites in the looks department. You responded by going on this diatribe about how the *De Rosa was copying Felt and Cervelo,* only getting attention because it was Italian, not innovative from a technology standpoint, etc. None of this had anything to do with whether it is a good looking bike in my mind unless you are trying to say the Felt is somehow more relevant or better looking because of the company's history, etc. That's all I was pointing out. Moreover, I never suggested that the De Rosa was an innovative design or a great aero bike, or the end all be all in anything but looking really good.


I pointed out that the De Rosa was copying the original Felt AR and the Canyon Aeroad (not Cervelo, check my post again) in terms of features and design to show that what De Rosa has done is nothing original, unique or special. A "has been" been there and done that. Even Trek and Specialized were able to come up with very original and unique aero road frames, so De Rosa can't use the excuse that all the good ideas are used up. I personally don't give credit to a company that "rips" off significant features from other brands and can't come up with their own design.


I added the comments of the De Rosa being "Italian, not innovative from a technology standpoint, etc." because this is a discussion forum and I was adding my opinion about the bike. I was stating why I didn't get all the excitement/talk I have been hearing about the De Rosa from people (more than just you) and didn't see what was so special about it. Again, my opinion and adding to the discussion.





Rashadabd said:


> With regard to short lists, again I acknowledged early on that the Felt is a great bike, but that it doesn't make MY short list because I do not like the rear brake placement and I am not interested in an electronic only $4000 frameset today. You suggested the AR1 as an alternative, but I again confirmed what I already said about not liking some elements of the design and that I prefer frames where I don't have to think about those issues and that there are options out there today where you get all of that without sacrificing performance. So, to be clear, while the Felt might make your big 4, it does not make my big 3. We just have a difference of opinion on that and we will both have to accept it regardless of what data "you have" at your disposal, etc. This is something else I pointed out multiple times


That is perfectly fine and you don't need to like the Felt. But please be honest and remember this discussion of the "big 3" did not come out from how we ranked them in terms of how we liked them but rather: 



Rashadabd said:


> *When it comes to aero performance*, I identified the Madone, VIAS, and S5 as the big 3.


how they compared aero wise. So if you are going to create a top x aero bikes list, the Felt definitely needs to be on the list with Cervelo and the others. 

When you were talking about the AR frame and the complaints you had, I was explaining the situation and how it wasn't as big as you were making it out to be. Sure, the rear brake placement could be a no deal situation for some people, that is fair enough. But the issue of mechanical vs. electronic was something I was trying to explain if someone really had that concern. If you didn't know what you would use, go with the AR1 as you can use both. The FRD would still let you use a 1x setup, so not like you can't run mechanical on it. Plus, with the SRAM eTap, that whole issue will be a no issue fairly soon. Nice to have a frame designed with minimal holes in it for cables and wires.


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## Rashadabd

Maybe you don't see it, but you are still doing the same thing (which is fine by me to be honest). 

I never expressed an interest in a 1x set-up, nor did I mention eTap. You are still discussing De Rosa and whether the SK is an innovative design or something new as if that is in some way germaine to the discusion we were having. It is clear that you are only mentioning all of those things to push the Felt. 

If you are going to quote me, at least capture what I said:

"Good point, but I often disregard the Canyon bikes because they aren't a real option here as you indicated above. I like the look of the Felt AR a lot, but I am not a fan of the rear brake placement and the fact that you have to choose a mechanical or electronic frameset at all, so that one is kind of out for me as well. The AR1 comes in at a great price though."

Maybe I was less than clear, but that is the point in the conversation where I shifted from talking about aero data to personal preference and ease of purchase. I like the Felt, but not as much as you and not enough for it to make the list of my top 3 aero road bikes. There is no big 4 for me, sorry to dissapoint you. 

"[Y]ou are doing this forum and community a disservice and that needs to be pointed out with the reality of the matter." Please tell me you are kidding when you say this, right? Everything said in here is just a matter of opinion. What I have said is clearly just one guy's thoughts on this and I have acknowledged that over and over throughout the thread. It actually appears to be you that is under the impression that your word is gospel that must be adopted by others. The Felt has nice wind tunnel numbers and is a fine design, but based on my own personal preferences, I do not consider it to be among the top three aero bikes on the road and as an individual that gets to make up his own mind about such topics, I am entitled to reach that conclusion. There is no chart or aero test that is going to make me like a rear brake placed behind a bb. Nor is there any chart or aero test that is going to make me interested in buying a $4000 frameset that I have to run a 1x set-up on if I want to go mechanical on in 2016, sorry. I think eTap is great by the way, but there are too many options out there at that price point that allow me to run whatever system I want to consider the AR FRD among *my* top 3. I'm not buying what you are selling and it is what it is....


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## tranzformer

Rash, you just don't see it but keep doing the same thing in each of your replies (but that is cool with me). 

I don't care if you like the Felt or don't like the Felt. I don't care if you love the De Rosa or don't love the De Rosa. When I was replying about that Felt AR, I was making it clear what the FRD and AR1 version of the frame could and could not do. I was also making it clear with a fact that with SRAM eTap any of the concerns of mechanical vs. electronic will be a mute point (for every frame, not just the AR). Again, I do not care what your favorite frame is. I don't care what frame you don't like. I was replying back regarding the features of the frame.

Knock that crap off as I am not pushing the Felt. I am just addressing incorrect and false statements that you made regarding it. I don't care what frame anyone buys. This isn't an online market place and I don't get a cut out of what a LBS sells you. Buy what makes you happy.




Rashadabd said:


> *When it comes to aero performance*, I identified the Madone, VIAS, and S5 as the big 3.





Rashadabd said:


> *It seems like these two and the Cervelo S5 are the big 3 when it comes to aerodynamics.*



Again, this is what I was responding to. I don't care what you feel are the 3 coolest looking bike list, or the 3 prettiest color bike list. That doesn't matter to me as that is completely subjective per user preference. 

But I do care about a "aero performance" list as that is easily quantifiable through data and has already been done by multiple sources. I just provided you with some recent data from Tour Magazine and stated that you can't ignore Felt out of Cervelo + Trek + Specialized group as Felt is right there with them in terms of having the fastest road bike. Again:

#1= Specialized S-Works Venge ViAS @ 204w
= Trek Madone 9.9 @ 204w

#2= Felt AR @ 205w
Cervelo S5 @ 205w

You can go make your top 3 prettiest bike list, or your 3 three bike list. I couldn't care less what you put in that list. But when you talk about a top 3 list for "aero performance" I will correct you when you incorrectly state something. 




Rashadabd said:


> Everything said in here is just a matter of opinion.


Incorrect. There is plenty of data and stats provided in this thread. From the data provided from the original Velonews article to the data I provided from the Tour Magazine aero test comparison. That is data and is not opinion. It is based on science and math, not personal opinion or preference. When you talk about CdA, that is a fact that can be quantifiably determined. When you talk about prettiest bike or prettiest color, then yes, that is a matter of opinion. 


Again, I can't make this clear enough. I don't care what aero road bike you like. I don't care what aero road bike makes you top three list. I don't care what you think looks the nicest. But I do care about you incorrectly stating which frames are and are not the best in regards to "aero performance."


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## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> Rash, you just don't see it but keep doing the same thing in each of your replies (but that is cool with me).
> 
> I don't care if you like the Felt or don't like the Felt. I don't care if you love the De Rosa or don't love the De Rosa. When I was replying about that Felt AR, I was making it clear what the FRD and AR1 version of the frame could and could not do. I was also making it clear with a fact that with SRAM eTap any of the concerns of mechanical vs. electronic will be a mute point (for every frame, not just the AR). Again, I do not care what your favorite frame is. I don't care what frame you don't like. I was replying back regarding the features of the frame.
> 
> Knock that crap off as I am not pushing the Felt. I am just addressing incorrect and false statements that you made regarding it. I don't care what frame anyone buys. This isn't an online market place and I don't get a cut out of what a LBS sells you. Buy what makes you happy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this is what I was responding to. I don't care what you feel are the 3 coolest looking bike list, or the 3 prettiest color bike list. That doesn't matter to me as that is completely subjective per user preference.
> 
> But I do care about a "aero performance" list as that is easily quantifiable through data and has already been done by multiple sources. I just provided you with some recent data from Tour Magazine and stated that you can't ignore Felt out of Cervelo + Trek + Specialized group as Felt is right there with them in terms of having the fastest road bike. Again:
> 
> #1= Specialized S-Works Venge ViAS @ 204w
> = Trek Madone 9.9 @ 204w
> 
> #2= Felt AR @ 205w
> Cervelo S5 @ 205w
> 
> You can go make your top 3 prettiest bike list, or your 3 three bike list. I couldn't care less what you put in that list. But when you talk about a top 3 list for "aero performance" I will correct you when you incorrectly state something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. There is plenty of data and stats provided in this thread. From the data provided from the original Velonews article to the data I provided from the Tour Magazine aero test comparison. That is data and is not opinion. It is based on science and math, not personal opinion or preference. When you talk about CdA, that is a fact that can be quantifiably determined. When you talk about prettiest bike or prettiest color, then yes, that is a matter of opinion.
> 
> 
> Again, I can't make this clear enough. I don't care what aero road bike you like. I don't care what aero road bike makes you top three list. I don't care what you think looks the nicest. But I do care about you incorrectly stating which frames are and are not the best in regards to "aero performance."


Ok, bygones... But, for clarity's sake. What did I state "incorrectly" about the Felt AR? Even if we accept your criteria for what makes a great aero road bike, from what I can tell, no one has rated it higher than either the Venge VIAS, new Trek Madone, or Cervelo S5. They may have found that the numbers are close at certain angles, but I haven't seen anyone rate it higher. Given that, why is so ludicrous for me to say *my* top three is limited to those bikes man? What's so crazy about that (even though it's pretty clear that I was no longer talking about numbers when I explained why I eliminated both the Felt AR FRD and the Canyon)? 

Finally, if the post above is what you meant, I can live with that. Where it got confusing and what I was trying to remind you of with that "crap," as you call it, is that you have been a bit all over the place yourself. At one point, you did seem to care quite a bit about whether the De Rosa was an innovative design, at one point, you cared that they "copied" Felt and Cervelo's early work, at one point, you cared that the Felt AR is pure "sex", at one point you cared that one could run a 1x set-up on the Felt AR or go with the AR1. None of these things have anything to do with the numbers and science you are referring to now and clouded the issue and led me to the conclude that you were trying to convince me that he Felt AR is a better bike or the best aero bike, etc. If I got that wrong, my bad. Like I said before, bygones.... 

For the record, I could care less about De Rosas beyond the look of this particular bike that I would probably never buy. I am actually a Cannondale and all-around race/climbing bike kind of guy. I think some of this stuff is cool, but it's not my focus when it comes to cycling to be honest.


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## tranzformer

Rashadabd said:


> Ok, bygones... But, for clarity's sake. What did I state "incorrectly" about the Felt AR? Even if we accept your criteria for what makes a great aero road bike, from what I can tell, no one has rated it higher than either the Venge VIAS, new Trek Madone, or Cervelo S5. They may have found that the numbers are close at certain angles, but I haven't seen anyone rate it higher. Given that, why is so ludicrous for me to say *my* top three is limited to those bikes man? What's so crazy about that (even though it's pretty clear that I was no longer talking about numbers when I explained why I eliminated both the Felt AR FRD and the Canyon)?


Rash, I'm not sure you are following me. I am talking strictly about "aero performance" and "aerodynamics" as I replied to your two statements using those terms. "Aero performance" and "aerodynamics" are quantifiable through use of a wind tunnel and shown in either watts or CdA. They are what they are, data. I am NOT talking about what the best overall bike is with price, weight, comfort, stiffness, handling, brake performance...etc. taken into account. I am only replying to your statements of "aero performance" and "aerodynamics." I hope you finally can understand that as you don't seem to follow this conversation very well. It is about aerodynamics. As a result, all I stated was the fact the Felt AR was just as fast/slippery as the Cervelo S5, so if we are including the Cervelo S5 in a top X list, the Felt AR should be in the top X list based on the very fact that it is just as fast/slipper as the Cervelo S5 in terms of "aero performance" and "aerodynamics."



Rashadabd said:


> *When it comes to aero performance*, I identified the Madone, VIAS, and S5 as the big 3.





Rashadabd said:


> *It seems like these two and the Cervelo S5 are the big 3 when it comes to aerodynamics.*


Again, when we talk about "aero performance" or "aerodynamics" in the bike industry, those are based off of wind tunnel data. Sure we can argue about the reliability of the tunnel or how well the test was designed to compare different frames. But that is for another day. We are comparing the data provided in the comparison of these aero frames. So when we compare the aerodynamics of the fastest frames, it isn't open to subjective reasoning as you rank them from best to worse. When you do that the Felt AR is the same as the Cervelo S5 and both of those are only 1w slower than the Trek Madone and the Specialized Venge ViAS. 

As a result, when you look at the "big 3 when it comes to aerodynamics" or the "aero performance" it isn't open to opinion as it is based off of the wind tunnel data and organizing it from fastest to slowest. You don't get an opinion in that. 

However you do get an opinion in what the best overall frame is. You can base that off of price, weight, comfort, stiffness, handling, paint color...etc. or a myriad of other criteria and create your own list. You can say whatever frames you like in your top 3 all you want. But when you talk about top X in terms of "aerodynamics" or "aero performance" you need to realize that is based off of very objective data and not subjective personal preference and that there is a very specific way of ordering that list based on the data and you don't get to list it as you want.




Rashadabd said:


> Finally, if the post above is what you meant, I can live with that. Where it got confusing and what I was trying to remind you of with that "crap," as you call it, is that you have been a bit all over the place yourself.


I haven't been all over the place. In post #14 you stated that the De Rosa would have few rivals if "good looks and style" were the criteria. In post #15 I replied back and said that other than the nice paint + the name on it + being Italian, the De Rosa isn't all that and isn't all that cutting edge based on knocking off features from a 2008 bike and copying the Canyon as well. I don't care about the De Rosa as I wouldn't waste my money on that bike. But for some reason you seem very offended and concerned that I pointed out the De Rosa copying a Felt feature from way back in 2008 (I don't consider a bike cutting edge that has to copy past features from other companies and can't come up with something on their own). 




Rashadabd said:


> At one point, you did seem to care quite a bit about whether the De Rosa was an innovative design, at one point, you cared that they "copied" Felt and *Cervelo's early work,*


Again, I never said De Rosa copied Cervelo. Please stop repeating that. I said De Rosa copied the Felt and Canyon. 




Rashadabd said:


> at one point, you cared that the Felt AR is pure "sex",


Yes, a full aero road frame (that is actually aero and is very fast) that comes in at less than 900g is very very impressive and I would consider that "sex" in cycling bike porn terminology.




Rashadabd said:


> at one point you cared that one could run a 1x set-up on the Felt AR or go with the AR1.


I don't care that the Felt AR FRD can run a 1x. I was just stating that the notion that it can't run mechanical isn't completely accurate. If someone comes and reads this thread (with all this banter back and forth with you), I would at least want them to be informed and learn something. If someone doesn't want 1x and wants 2x mechanical, then yes, the AR FRD isn't for them. But the AR1 would take 2x mechanical or electronic for them. If they don't like the AR1, they don't like the AR1 and move on to a different brand. 




Rashadabd said:


> None of these things have anything to do with the numbers and science you are referring to now and clouded the issue and led me to the conclude that you were trying to convince me that he Felt AR is a better bike or the best aero bike, etc. If I got that wrong, my bad. Like I said before, bygones.....


Only thing clouded I believe is your being able to follow this topic and not jumping back and forth from realizing there is a difference between the top fastest frames in terms of "aerodynamics" or "aero performance" vs. the best overall frame when considering price, weight, comfort, aero, handling, stiffness....etc. 

For someone looking for the lightest + most aero frame that is also stiff enough, then the Felt AR FRD might be a good option for them. But for someone like yourself that doesn't know if they want mechanical or electronic, then maybe the AR FRD isn't the best option for them. 


Rashadabd, I have been enjoying the mental gymnastics with you. Things have been kinda slow and boring over here. So always good to do online mental gymnastics on RBR with you. I think this session is coming to an end here, so might be time for you to go find someone else to engage with.


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## davidka

Ride them all and I think you'll see that the only choice is the Trek. It's as fast as any of them but it rides better than any of their non-aero bikes. Smoother, better handling, better front end stability. Add the P1 program so you can get spec and fit ala'carte and nothing else compares.

The Trek and Specialized are the only next-gen aero road bikes in terms of integration and purpose specific engineering and design. The rest are decidedly last generation. While the VIAS is as fast in a wind tunnel, it's not in the same league in any other aspect. Heavier (a lot..), harsh ride and marginal brakes. People who are paid to ride it refuse to.


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## thumper8888

Yes to your first paragraph, with the caveat that a bike has to fit you.

As to the madone and VIAS version of venge being the only next-gen aero bikes ... i understand where you're coming from, what with the hidden cables and brakes. 
But if you don't value those things, or feel like they are balanced out by the difficulties they create, then that's not exactly true. the Trek is a first-gen aero bike for that company, and kudos for knocking it out of the park on the first try.
The Venge is the second generation. And so is the S5, which is much different from the first gen S5... , it's just a year ahead of Specialized and Trek in the design cycle.
The Scott also is a second generation aero bike, with smart changes...
The third generation will likely yield pretty small aero improvements, especially for the top frames in the wind tunnel, but focus much more on getting the weight down and ride quality up as the others chase the Madone's advantages in those areas, particularly ride quality.
That isolation was a slick, slick move to deal with what is the chief complaint about aero frames for many, though not me.
But if you define that by


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## davidka

I wasn't referring to generation as revision cycles (though the last-gen Madone was their 1st aero road bike) but generations of clear division between a lower level of design and refinement and a clearly higher one. 

There will continue to be "last gen" aero bikes released in upcoming model years.


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## thumper8888

I understand your points, but honest people can disagree, and I for one do. I think I would have agreed, based on appearance and number of new features, claimed performance edge etc... until the Tour and Velo pieces and the aero numbers were clear. The S5 is probably as fast or faster than the Venge in the real world, depending on where you ride and some of the others were close enough that the performance advantage vs. the top five or six bikes may either not be there or be insignificant...
Out of the box thinking doesn't necessarily count as a generation of advancement if it doesn't quite work (see: Chevrolet Corsair). So, the brakes on the Venge, maybe not. If its successful design advances mainly consist of dropped seat stays and an integrated cockpit, well, there are other bikes that have the same.
Are the tucked away cables a significant positive advance? If tour says some of the other bikes, including the S5, are that close (1 watt?)... that's arguable.

It does seem flatly clear that the Madone has the edge because it does so many things so well... including smoothed in brakes that work and and that isolating seat system, which sounds like a step forward. Think the argument is stronger that it is "next gen", and you could also argue, based on the results of its various innovations, that it may be the only bike that is.

the previous Madone wasn't really an aero bike. More an all-arounder that actually admitted such a thing as drag exists. Kamm approach was not particularly innovative it was more of an R3 / R5 than S3 / S5.
Hell, even the Tarmac has tried to get drag down, but that does't make it an aero bike.


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## Rashadabd

thumper8888 said:


> Hell, even the Tarmac has tried to get drag down, but that does't make it an aero bike.


I once read Chris Yu talking about that very point somewhere (I will try to find it). Orbea also made similar design choices with the new Orca. It's not truly an aero bike, but they used shapes that reduce drag. The same can be said of both the new SS Evo Hi Mod and the new Giant TCR, but on those models the sizing of tubes was simply reduced to decrease both weight and drag.


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## Rashadabd

Here it is:

2015 Specialized Tarmac | Bicycling


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## Local Hero

I prefer the Trek. 

But why did the article compare the top-of-the-line $13,000 Madone to the $9000 Pro Venge?

They could have used a $12,900 S-Works Venge. At the least, it would have faired better in the weight comparison.


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## taodemon

Local Hero said:


> I prefer the Trek.
> 
> But why did the article compare the top-of-the-line $13,000 Madone to the $9000 Pro Venge?
> 
> They could have used a $12,900 S-Works Venge. At the least, it would have faired better in the weight comparison.



While I agree that the S-Works would have been a better comparison, the weight difference is still significant with the S-Works coming in at 16.9lbs (56cm) vs the 17.55lb of the pro compared to the 15.19 of the Madone.


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## aclinjury

Madone Project One, with Lightweight wheels

Some vital stats:

Ride really nice for an aero bike. The isospeed feature is real, it's immediately noticable upon riding the bike. I would go further to say that the Isospeed feature is one of the things that makes this bike stands out from the rest of the other aero bikes (hard to put a price on speed and comfort). The integrate brakes direct mount and are solid, not like the Venge Vias.

Some cons about the bike (when compared to a regular road bike). Integrate brakes are definitely harder to install and adjust that the typical calipers from Shimano, Sram. Running the brake housing is also a b*tch. Running the Di2 cables take some planning (need to get longer cables (additional $50) and different Di2 junction box (additional $100)). Headset spacers are also a little cumbersome. Everything is so integrated that once the bike is assembled, it's hard to change anything. I wouldn't want to travel with this bike due to the cumbersome of installing the headset spacers (yes, they are really cumbersome).

I'm beginning to think that Sram Etap, or any future wireless shifting system, is a must for any highly integrated aero bike. It's priceless not having to run the electrical cables. But alas, you still need to run brake cables, unless they invent wireless brakes too.

I would say that between the solid brakes and Isospeed features, Madone P1 owns the Venge Vias, hands down.

And I hope that Trek will never ever make a disc-brake version of this bike. Disc would totally ruin its look.

Weight? this is a size 52, and it's under UCI weight limit.

Cost? You don't wanna know. Clavicula crank is coming though.


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## spdntrxi

Nice rig ACL... madone is the winner for me too .. a shame since I can get bro deal with spesh, need to work on Trek.


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## aclinjury

At the LBS where this frame was purchased, the rep said they don't give bro deals to their sponsored riders on the P1. We're not their sponsored rider. But they ended up giving us a nice discount that is inline with most bro deals at this level. But we also paid cash. If you bring cash, you'll get bro deal or very close to it! We shopped at 2 local trek dealers and found out the saving difference was over $500.

I knew this build would be light compared to other aero bikes past and present, but I was pleasantly surprised when she hit the scale at just a hair over 14.5 lbs. The Clavicula crank will knock it under 14.5 for sure.

My wish for Trek. Make lighter brakes for P1 frame please. They could have used some carbon fiber in making these brakes (eg, the brake covers, brake arms), and yes carbon fiber brakes would probably raise the price up probably another $500, but the currently calipers feel like boat anchors on this sort of build. Wish there were lighter aftermarket brakes, but alas being integrated these brakes are proprietary.

btw, the Serotta Ottrott in the background rides just as nice, smoother in fact, and just as fast if you can push close to 400w ;-) , and no I do not feel any more flexing on the Serotta than on the Trek. But no doubt the trek is more aero, and the placebo effect of riding the trek gains me another 5 mph, I feel ;-)


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## spdntrxi

Is that h2 or H1? Looks h2 or small frame or both? Both bikes are sharp.. Guess I'll show cash money.. I like bro deals. 

I'll be adding the THM SE crank myself soon.. Be like 13.5 on my parlee depending on wheel choice.


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## aclinjury

H1, bike size 52. I think the P1 has a relatively tall headtube for even smaller sizes.

I know a guy with a Storck and using pretty much using the lightest components available to buy, and in size 48 it weighs like 10.5 lbs. That's so crazy. Cost on his build is close to $20k.

I've never been a big fan of Trek. Always have found their bikes to be boring with average quality. In other words, nothing special. However, with this new Madone, they hit a homerun IMO. They did almost everything right from the start. The aero features are legit and not gimmicky, real aero R&D science went into this frame. The craftsmanship is quality, paint job is quality. Their Asian frames don't have the same craftsmanship quality and feel. And if there's one thing that could put the icing on the cake is if they had made their brake calipers using carbon fiber, which would make a homerun into almost a grandslam IMO. I hate to bag on their brakes calipers because for integrated brakes they are solid performers,.. but really they're boat anchors at this level,.. and sadly we can't change them out.

Compare this Madone to the other equivalently priced highend frames such as C60, Evo, F8, Vias, I'd say you're getting more of your money's worth in this latest Madone, quite easily hands down, if we're comparing it "overall". But since this thread is about Vias vs Madone, I'll say this personally, the ride quality of the Madone dominates the Vias, easily hands down! This alone makes the Madone a winner over the Vias. Specialized was so focused on aero that they completely lost sight of comfort, and got blindsided by the Trek IMO.


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## spdntrxi

Ah my size.. Eventhough I could go 54 if I had too. Was hoping the TT would be a little less sloped but I guess H2 would be worse. Anyways love it.. Agree with the US made comment .. My wife had a series 6 Madone when the six was still done in the US


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## tranzformer

The fact the Madone is being ridden in the classics (cobbles) and winning + hardly any pros are seen on the Venge ViAS. The Trek is the clear winner between the two bikes imo and if I had to pick one of them the Madone is the clear choice.

I don't know if there has been a bigger "fail" in terms of R&D and marketing spent than the ViAS.


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## Cinelli 82220

ACL, why do you need a different junction box?

Is the one with the USB charger usable?


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## spdntrxi

Cinelli 82220 said:


> ACL, why do you need a different junction box?
> 
> Is the one with the USB charger usable?


my thinking is that the little compartment fits one or the other better.. 3 port or 5 port...or the older one?


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## plasmaman100

As the battery and 5 port junction box fit to the control unit all the electric wires go straight back to it so no need for any other junction connections. Makes for a tidy install. Though means all ports are used up.


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## Cinelli 82220

Trek should fit the Junction Box under the bar like Canyon.
That would make one less wire to run through the headset/steerer.


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## plasmaman100

The way theyve designed it is really slick and having fitted di2 on it myself its easy to do and not as difficult as some of the reviews say. Much prefer it to the Canyon and other cockpit layouts. Will be interesting to see if its a design Trek stick with or if other manufacturers follow the same. Mechanical though would be a pain.


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## Dagger9903

May be slightly OT, but anyone explore using EPS V3 on the Madone? Generally seems like the new battery / interface should fit, but curious if anyone has done it yet.


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