# NoTubes for Cyclocross



## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

I converted my front Ksyrium SL to tubeless last night using a black sidewall, blue/green tread Michelin Mud. I know Michelin is not recommended by NoTubes, but it is the ONLY clincher CX tire I would ever consider. I used a mavic tubeless valve stem and NO rubber rim strip. Suds'ed the rim up good at the bead of my tire, tried forever to pump it up w/ a floor pump. That only made lots of big bubbles all around the bead. Just as I was about to give up, I broke out the CO2 inflator and it filled right up, w/o any stans. Then I let the air out, pulled a section of the bead open, and poured about 3/4 of a stans scoop in. Re-mounted the bead, rotated the tire a bit to distribute the stans, then hit it again w/ the air. I followed the instructions from the NoTubes.com website about shaking the wheel, rotating, shaking more, then laying flat on each side for a short spell. I did all that at about 40 psi. After a while, I pumped it up further to about 50 psi and took it outside for a test spin. (I weigh 168 lbs and am an elite A Northwest racer, FWIW) 

Not knowing what to expect, I was very delicate as I built up trust in the setup. I eventually started cutting very harsh, tight turns on asphalt, riding over bumps, off curbs, etc. Not super fast but fast enough to pry on the tire. Then I took it over to a grassy field thinking that high friction would try to peel the tire off the rim. I did some more hard turns and didn't get any negative feedback. 

Tonight I will try it out at our local cross skills night and see if it gives me any more re-assurance. So far so good, but knock on wood. All the folks who have given me recommendations either hated it due to failure, or have been stoked using Michelins for several years w/o problems. I'm really curious why there could be such an evenly polarized set of opinions. We'll see!

If any other people out there have experimented w/ this setup, please share your thoughts. I'm hoping that this could be a simpler, cheaper alternative to running tubular tires. The desire is to have a setup that allows for lower pressures and flat reduction than w/ standard tubes/tires.


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## euro-trash (May 1, 2004)

Cool, I'm glad it worked. I'm not giving up my tubbies, but it would be nice to have a set of tubeless in the pits. 

Has anyone tried the Maxxis tubless strips? What size did you use for road rims? 

They are only $5 a piece, I may order a couple and check it out.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

Haven't used the Maxxis strips, but I know of a couple Elite racers who have made their own using a 20" tube, carefully sliced down the center, then layed into the bed of the rim. The opened up tube is wider than the rim, and extra rubber sits between the tire bead and the rim. The used Stans for this particular do-it-yourself trick. Also, you need the lock ring on the hub side of the rim on the valve to lock it in place tightly. You have to carefully cut away the extra rubber that sticks out between the tire and rim on the outside once inflated. CAREFULLY.

They both have raced w/ that setup for at least two seasons, using the Michelin Muds w/ good success. I heard 45-60 psi for the one particular 145 lb. rider. The other rider was experimenting w/ 35-45 w/ success. This is third party though, I don't know for sure all the details.


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## jmeerse (Nov 12, 2004)

I usually run my clinchers at 40-45, and I weigh 150ish. Why go to the hassle of making a no-tubes setup? Are lower pressures possible?


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## ricebowls (Jun 11, 2004)

I've been running tubless on my cx and mountin bikes for 3 years now and I highly recommend it. For CX I've been using the Stan's 29er rims, building my second set right now as a matter of fact and I'm planning on experimenting with the Vredestein CX clinchers. 

jmeerse I;m about 148lbs and I run 32 psi, not much hassle at all once you get the hang of it (but helps a lot to have a compressor and a stan's injector), tons of tire choices and way lower rolling resistance.


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## escamillo (Oct 23, 2003)

this is a great thread. i experimented with some 35c kenda kwicks last year, mounted onto a set of stans 355's. i've been using stans on my mtbs for the last few years and have ditched the rubber liner all together and just use stans yellow tape with the valve stem. the set up, 40 lbs of pressure f/r, i'm 180 and am riding in new england. i didn't race them but took them out on my local single track, i got about 4 hours on them untill i sliced the front. end of experiment. they held air well, a few burps on the first ride. i had multiple rim shots with no loss of air and figured it would be worth trying to race on them..... well as a back up set, i still like my tubulars. this season i'll try airing up a set of maxxis mimo's, looks like a fast tire.

e


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

I tested out my Stans converted Michelin Mud tonight and pushed it pretty good on a variety of terrain types, gradually pushing the envelope. I was on a lot of rough, off camber grass, some choppy dirt field descent (old mole hills), and bunnyhopped some tall concrete curbs into woodchips. Did some more harsh powerslide kinds of turns w/ a lot of sidewall torque. So far so good.

Just to be the devil's advocate on this stuff (and in reference to the Mimo comment above), I will comment that I personally witnessed Geoff Kabush rolling off his Stans'ed front tire at the Portland UCI cross race last fall. He appeared to be running a Maxxis Mimo clincher tire on a Zipp wheel. It looked like a big white mess and it sounded like a water ballon breaking when it rolled. And it was quite a long run back to the pits after that.

Just throwing that out there for you to ponder. It is the big visual I have in my head that makes me want to really test it out well before an important race.


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## Kraige (Mar 29, 2005)

*Why not just use tufo tubeless clinchers*

Admittedly, this is a new idea/technique to me. Can you explain what the difference would be between going with this system versus running something like a tubular clincher from tufo? Scroll down to tubular clincher. Why not just run one of these tires? The Michelin's are a bit cheaper, but you can pick up some tufo tires for 6 - 10 bucks more.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

Good question. I have actually been using the tubular clincher tufos myself the last two seasons, depending on the course. Mainly in the rear. The largest tubular-clincher they make I believe is a 30. Though I can run nice low pressures in the mud w/ those tufos, the knob pattern and smaller size don't give me as good of traction in off camber greasy mud as the Muds do. I can run lower pressure, sure, but then I wash out more. They are lighter than a clincher/tube and that is nice. I haven't had any issues w/ them peeling off the rim. Just more related to durability vs. cost.

My whole reason for doing the experiment is to find a cheaper alternative (than a Dugast w/ a Michelin Mud tread -$125 Cyclocrossworld.com, plus building a new tubie wheelset) that enables me to run lower pressures than a clincher, and have the ideal tread pattern. Plus, I had an extra front Ksyrium laying around which is ideal for the tubeless conversion due to it not having spoke holes in the rim bed. No need for the rubber rim strip, which means the lightest option is available this route.

I have also ordered some Grifo 34's to build up a tubular set as well. I think I might get a Tufo Flexus to try too, since they have improved their tread pattern over their classic design.


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## MrXC (Dec 6, 2004)

CDB said:


> Just to be the devil's advocate on this stuff (and in reference to the Mimo comment above), I will comment that I personally witnessed Geoff Kabush rolling off his Stans'ed front tire at the Portland UCI cross race last fall. He appeared to be running a Maxxis Mimo clincher tire on a Zipp wheel. It looked like a big white mess and it sounded like a water ballon breaking when it rolled. And it was quite a long run back to the pits after that.QUOTE]
> 
> I had this happen on one of my mountain bikes with converted rims a couple of months ago. My theory is it was a combination of too low PSI (definitely less than 30), a wide rim (mavic 519) and a relatively narrow tire (WTB Weirwolf 2.1 UST). As long as I stay in the 32-35 psi realm I've never had that happen.
> 
> Anybody have any success or failure stories with other tires?


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## Dream Plus (Feb 4, 2004)

*Apples and Oranges*

I know not directlycomparable, but I had Michelin MTB tires with Stan's blow completely off my rims before. Once while the bike was hanging in the basement w /under 50psi and once on the way home from work. The beads were just too weak. I think that's why Stan's discuorages using non UST Michelins. I replaced them with some Hutchinson Pythons and then some Nokions with no problems. Good luck.


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## escamillo (Oct 23, 2003)

MrXC said:


> Anybody have any success or failure stories with other tires?


i've run stans on my 29"er mtb's for 3 years. i've had one tire blow off, a kevlar nano, a know looser as a tubless. i have some maxxis ignitors and a set of wtb nano wire and exi-wolf on there now and run anywhere between 28 and 18 lbs on stans rims. they get a bit wiggly under 20, but i've yet to roll one off. with a wider rim your going to get less tire roll and more volume out of the tire. so long as that bead is set you should be able to run them as low as you feel comfortable with. next time you air up a set pump'em up to about 25 lbs and really torque the tire back and forth to set the bead. you'll hear it pop in. then air them up to about 40-50 leave overnight and set to your ideal pressure before your next ride. some will suggest you keep the high pressure for your first ride but i've had no issues.

good luck

e


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## jmeerse (Nov 12, 2004)

Okay, I'm intrigued. Suppose I want to convert a mavic cx33 rim to tubeless, without buying a whole conversion kit. What do I need to do? Someone want to give me directions, or point me to a webpage?

thanks,
John


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## wicz (May 2, 2006)

jmeerse said:


> Okay, I'm intrigued. Suppose I want to convert a mavic cx33 rim to tubeless, without buying a whole conversion kit. What do I need to do? Someone want to give me directions, or point me to a webpage?
> 
> thanks,
> John



im wondering the best way too. i have mavic cosmos with michelin mud 2's. i was planning on getting one of the high pressure rim strips and then just using sealant, but im guessing theres a bit more to it.


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## Vegancx (Jan 22, 2004)

jmeerse said:


> I usually run my clinchers at 40-45, and I weigh 150ish. Why go to the hassle of making a no-tubes setup? Are lower pressures possible?


40-45 PSI, ack! 

Even on regular ol' clinchers I'll take it down to 32-35 (145-150lbs, btw). 

From what I hear, Stan's has a rim strip for 'cross use, but you need to call them as it's not on their website.


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## yodester (Aug 27, 2002)

Here's the link to the way I did mine.
http://www.waltworks.com/dev/faq/gotubeless.pdf#search="homemade tubeless tire"

I didn't have to go to all the trouble of sealing the rim since I was using Ksyriums.


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## ricebowls (Jun 11, 2004)

jmeerse, From what I've experienced (and in my opinion) it pays to go with the conversion kit from Stans or some sort of equivalant. Tubless is the kind of thing you want to rule out as many variables for failure as possible. And I'm guessing that's what turns so many people off to it, user error. So the only way to be sure it works is to do it right. Good luck.


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## escamillo (Oct 23, 2003)

yodester said:


> Here's the link to the way I did mine.
> http://www.waltworks.com/dev/faq/gotubeless.pdf#search="homemade tubeless tire"


solid info. the only thing i'd add to walts do it yourself manual is after step four (applying the tape to the rim), is to air up the wheel with a tube and inflate to 60 lbs overnight to really set the tape. 

e


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## Cevan (Jul 19, 2004)

*UST would be nice.*

I've been using tubeless tires on my mtn bike for 2 years with no issues. The rim and tire are both UST versions. I don't use any sealant or rim strip and have had no flats, even 280 miles in Moab this past April.

It shouldn't be too hard to make a UST 700c rim and tire. I'd try it.


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## cliff (Sep 23, 2004)

I'm running the whole stan's setup with the 29er 535 rims, yellow tape and stem (no rim strip). I've run them all summer and have had no problem. I find my ideal pressure to be around 35=10 psi lower than I could with standard tube/tire clinchers. tufo's have a mediocre tread and I've had sidewalls cut-then the tire is toast. And this tubeless set up is the lightest-saved 200 grams by eliminating the tubes, and lighter than tufo also. I can use almost any tire-presently crossblaster and excavader. If I run 25 psi I bottom out on the rim and worry about denting the rim on a root or rock or curb and the tire feels a bit squirmy to me. No burping, no pinch flatting. I picked up a nail the other day- pulled it out and it was hemorraging stan's sealent for about 5 seconds. I rotated the wheel so the sealent would pool over it, pushed in some C02 and was on my way in less than half a minute! I'm totally sold (so far). I'll post more as the season begins and progresses...

BTW, I chose over tubulars b/c the tire cost is lower, more tire options and no gluing hassles. Mounting the tubeless setup is easy.

cliff


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## ibissteel (Sep 27, 2005)

*Can't get Mich Muds to hold air overnight*

Worked on this for a couple hours on both Friday and Saturday night. I can get them to inflate, and can get the rimstrip/bead interface to seal, but I can't get the sidewall pinholes to stop leaking. Tried REPEATED soaping looking for holes, finding them, shaking sealant in area of hole, laying the tire on its side, ad nausem. What causes the rimstrip/bead interface to seal but not sidewall pinholes?


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## escamillo (Oct 23, 2003)

ibissteel said:


> Worked on this for a couple hours on both Friday and Saturday night. I can get them to inflate, and can get the rimstrip/bead interface to seal, but I can't get the sidewall pinholes to stop leaking. Tried REPEATED soaping looking for holes, finding them, shaking sealant in area of hole, laying the tire on its side, ad nausem. What causes the rimstrip/bead interface to seal but not sidewall pinholes?


i had this same problem with some wtb mtb tires last season. they eventually sealed up but it took a while. most non ust tires have these small pin holes, at least according to stan. i've even had a 1/4" gash in a side wall seal up.... well enough to make it home.

is this a new tire or an old tire? what pressure are you inflating them to and how much of the stans are you using? i used a scoop in each tire and once the bead is set inflate up to 40-50 psi.

e


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## ibissteel (Sep 27, 2005)

These are 1 year old tires that only have 5 45min races on them. They were stored in plastic bags over the winter/summer to prevent the rubber from drying out. The tires are new enough they still have alot of those little rubber fingers from the mold still on the tread blocks.

I'm using 45-50lb to try and seal them. The first nights sealing session I used 2/3 of a scoop due to these being smaller tires. The second night I added more to where I now have 1.5 scoops or so in there.


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## escamillo (Oct 23, 2003)

ibissteel said:


> These are 1 year old tires that only have 5 45min races on them. They were stored in plastic bags over the winter/summer to prevent the rubber from drying out. The tires are new enough they still have alot of those little rubber fingers from the mold still on the tread blocks.
> 
> I'm using 45-50lb to try and seal them. The first nights sealing session I used 2/3 of a scoop due to these being smaller tires. The second night I added more to where I now have 1.5 scoops or so in there.



sounds like you have plenty of pressure, my one suggestion would be to ease up on the psi so they seal. are they holding any air or is your tire loosing all pressure? the age of the tire doesn't sound like the issue.

e


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## ibissteel (Sep 27, 2005)

If I pump them up and work on sealing at 10pm, leaving them at 45-50lb laying horizontal over a bucket, by 7am the next morning they are down to 15-20. Both mornings after inspecting the soft tire I left leaning upgright on the floor. 5-6 hours later they would be completly flat, likely due to the weight of the tire and continued leakage causing the rim seal to come apart.

Since in the middle of the night they naturally progress through lower pressures, what advantage would there be to initially leaving them at a lower pressure?


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## escamillo (Oct 23, 2003)

ibissteel said:


> If I pump them up and work on sealing at 10pm, leaving them at 45-50lb laying horizontal over a bucket, by 7am the next morning they are down to 15-20. Both mornings after inspecting the soft tire I left leaning upgright on the floor. 5-6 hours later they would be completly flat, likely due to the weight of the tire and continued leakage causing the rim seal to come apart.
> 
> Since in the middle of the night they naturally progress through lower pressures, what advantage would there be to initially leaving them at a lower pressure?


well i'm stumped. my only suggestion would be to call stan and ask him yourself. he's been good about taking tech questions in the past and may have some better suggestions on how to proceed.

i suggested the lower psi after having a few larger holes seal up once the pressure was low enough for the sealant to clot the hole. seems there's more going on than just a hole with your tires. 

e


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

I have been testing my front Ksyrium/Stan's converted Michelin Mud some more over the past week. I have had no problems to date. I am an Elite CX'er and Semipro MTB'er so you could say I am not going easy. Friday I took my cross bike up a mtb trail and rode over quite a few roots and techy dips. I was running about 48 psi (I weigh 168). I ended climbing up to the top of a quite long, rocky, rooty, and technical descent. The trail had a lot of large waterbars and rocks to ride over. With so many tight rough switch backs, I think it really was a test pushing beyond the kinds of lateral stresses a cx tire would experience in any kind of racing situation. I have had no burping whatsoever. Over a couple of nights, I have noticed a slight loss of air pressure, but less than 8 psi.

Tonight, I took it out on my cross course to really test it hard. I did a lot of off camber grassy banks, ditch crossings, and a little bit of bumpy descending. No issues. I was sprinting into/out of corners. 

The only thing I notice is how much lighter my bike feels! Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## cliff (Sep 23, 2004)

I agree that talking to Stan would be prudent. Stan doesn't recommend some tires, and Michelin is one of them (WTB and Hutchinson are otheres). He told me there were issues with the beads of these tires. I have heard, though not directly, that people have mounted mud2's and jets. Anyway, you can also post this on the Notubes.com message board and you'll recceive an answer.


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## ibissteel (Sep 27, 2005)

Posted on NoTubes site and their staff (Mike I think) simply said that they don't recommend either Michelin tires or using split inner tubes for a rim strip so I was SOL. Given CDB's good luck with Mich Muds, and the fact that these are my favorite tires by far, I'd like to keep trying. 

My Open Pro obviously has spoke holes so I'm forced to use some type of rim strip. Noticied that CDB's experience with the Ksyrium used no rim strip, so in that situation the tire bead is sitting directly into the rim's hook, with no rubber layer between. My fashioned rim strip completely lined the inner surface of the hook such that I trimmed the excess tube from outside once the tire was fully inflated. Should I try to make a rim strip that covers just the spoke holes but doesn't go into the hook area of the rim? Will it stay in place or do I need the tire bead pressing it into place?

Maybe these are mute questions since most of my leaks from pinholes in the sidewall. Perhaps I just need to buy another Mich Mud and try it. Don't want to do this too many times otherwise I'll just save up for tubulars.

thanks for the help everyone.


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## escamillo (Oct 23, 2003)

ibissteel said:


> Posted on NoTubes site and their staff (Mike I think) simply said that they don't recommend either Michelin tires or using split inner tubes for a rim strip so I was SOL. Given CDB's good luck with Mich Muds, and the fact that these are my favorite tires by far, I'd like to keep trying.
> 
> My Open Pro obviously has spoke holes so I'm forced to use some type of rim strip. Noticied that CDB's experience with the Ksyrium used no rim strip, so in that situation the tire bead is sitting directly into the rim's hook, with no rubber layer between. My fashioned rim strip completely lined the inner surface of the hook such that I trimmed the excess tube from outside once the tire was fully inflated. Should I try to make a rim strip that covers just the spoke holes but doesn't go into the hook area of the rim? Will it stay in place or do I need the tire bead pressing it into place?
> 
> ...


lets just assume that the tires are working. you'll need to do a good tape job on the rim before you put in your home made innertube strip. i just use the stans yellow tape and set it over night with a tube inserted to the tire and inflate to apx 50 lbs. straping tape with black tape will work in a pinch but the yellow stans tape has been faultless for me, sooo.... once the tape is firmly set onto the rim you can either remount your rim strip (make sure this fits in the box section of your rim, not to big, not to small) or just use a stem valve (my prefered method). from there you know the drill.

good luck

e


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

ibissteel -

I personally haven't tried the split rubber tube liner method, but had a couple elite riders tell me about it, and I am the one who posted it. I probably wouldn't try that method since it would end up weighing more than just using a tube. And a pinch flat in the front is less likely anyways. 

I only have experience w/ a Ksyrium and Mavic tubeless valve stem w/ a Michelin Mud. The tire I used was in great shape, but had also been used for a season on the front. I had no bleeding through the sidewall at all. Maybe YOUR used tire just isn't up to par. The link above by waltworks.com "do-it-yourself method" seems to me to be a good method for making a tubeless valve stem out of an old tube. They also describe very thoroughly how to prep the rim and then line w/ tape to create a very airtight base seal over the spoke holes. I don't know if the rim's bead hook profile differs between a Ksyrium and an Open Pro, but since they are both Mavic, I would guess not. They used latex but I'd just use Stans.

I personally followed the Stans directions including lots of soapy foam, mixing the soapy water exactly as they recommend. I aired mine up w/ CO2 to initially get it to seat.

As far as the rubber liner goes, I read above that their 29'er strip might work. Of course they want to sell their own product so they aren't going to recommend a cheaper alternative. Why would they? Nothing agains Stans but they do want to make a profit. I like their sensible products. Also, I wonder if they have actually tested out a michelin mud, or if all the bead comments are based upon mtb tires. I have heard a lot of folks having good luck on the cx tires.

Good luck.


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## argylesocks (Aug 2, 2004)

*the reply i got:*

i asked stan specifically about 'cross tires & 700c wheels:

--
Yes we make a 700c kit but you must run low pressures or you may stretch or snap a bead and blow the tire off the rim. Try to run as low as possible without burping 30 to 45psi.
The Kyserium will take the 700c strips. If the AC is about the same width it may take the same strip.

You will need to call to order.
--

AC= american classic 420s


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

Regarding my converted Michelin Mud to Stans tubeless on Ksyrium... 
I finally burped my front wheel on the training course tonight. It took me down pretty good going slow 180 turn on off camber dry frictiony grass. Hate to have that happen on a faster section. It was similar to slipping on ice. Yikes. I was running about 45 psi. It lost maybe 10-15psi. I aired it back up and kept pushing it over same kind of terrain. Brought my confidence level from a 6/10 down to about 2/10. I think 48-50 might be safer. Just sharing my experience w/ you all since discussing it previously. I will keep testing it quite a bit before racing.


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## cliff (Sep 23, 2004)

I wonder if the bead seal is a problem of the ksyrium, the michelin tire bead, or the combo? I'm using stan's 29er 355 rim which is wider by 5 mm, and I'm using different tires and haven't burped at all running at 35 psi fornt and 38 rear. The mud has a great tread, but I don't have a new one to try mounting on my rims, and I like the present combo. I'll have to try it though.


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## ojingoh (Jul 13, 2006)

*dura ace 7801-wh wheels*

tubeless 130mm spacing rims -- i know this thread is about diy rims n sealants, and some people won't/can't run shimano wheels, but here it is:

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish...n/news___info/news/dura-ace_high_profile.html


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## kev0153 (Nov 14, 2005)

I went with Stans on my mountain bike due to constant pinch flats but I went with the rear only. Kept the front as tube since I almost never pinch flat on the front. This seems to work great. I was running Stans in the front but was having burping problems. I think the side loads on the front tire are higher due to turning and what not. I'm probably going to convert my cross bike to the same system. Stans' rear, tube front.


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## jmeerse (Nov 12, 2004)

*so far, so good....*

I've converted two wheels to tubeless, and today was my first day out with them. The front has a Mavic cxp33 rim, and the back has a Mavic MA40 rim. Both have Michelin Mud2's on, brand new last week. I used a homebrew mixture of water, liquid latex, windshield washer fluid, and Slime for the sealant. Today's ride was about an hour and 15 minutes, on roots, rocks, dirt, gravel and pavement -- much more mountain-bikey than cyclocross-y. The tires were inflated to 45psi, and rode really well -- I hit a number of things (rocks and roots) that bottomed out the rim, but no problems. I tried a couple 'cross remounts, and heard the rear wheel give up some air, which concerns me because if I do 10-20 remounts in a race, each time losing air I'm going to be in trouble by the end. When I got home each tire had lost maybe 1 or 2lbs of pressure, no big deal. Later in the week I'll try running them at lower pressures on our local 'cross practice course.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

*Raced my notubes setup*

I did my first race with my "Notubes converted Michelin Mud on Ksyrium" front wheel last night. I came out with the win in the "A" category! I didn't have any problems and the course did have some pretty bumpy stuff. I was careful with my lines to avoid the largest baby head rocks and on the tight hard dirt 180 turns, I erred on the conservative side. I ran a little bit firm on air pressure (50psi/168lb. rider), due to the baby head rocks and my fear of burping. I will try a little bit softer next time.


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## Cevan (Jul 19, 2004)

*I'm not seeing an advantage unless*



CDB said:


> I did my first race with my "Notubes converted Michelin Mud on Ksyrium" front wheel last night. I came out with the win in the "A" category! I didn't have any problems and the course did have some pretty bumpy stuff. I was careful with my lines to avoid the largest baby head rocks and on the tight hard dirt 180 turns, I erred on the conservative side. I ran a little bit firm on air pressure (50psi/168lb. rider), due to the baby head rocks and my fear of burping. I will try a little bit softer next time.


you can run less than 40 lbs of pressure. I think the weight savings is minimal (tube and rimstrip vs. sealant and sealing rimstrip). I ran 40 lbs in my standard tubed wheels in a race this past Sunday. The course had a pretty rough woods sections. No flats.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

Thanks for the advice. So it would be helpful when you provide low pressure guidelines (40 psi tube/clincher tire) that you also share your weight and maybe even reasonable description of your riding ability/terrain? I know maybe that is difficult to fairly describe but it can help others to decide whether the advice applies to them. 

I know that I could ride a lap of a typical race course w/ my air pressure that low w/ a tube, but when I am pushing it at 100%, it is highly likely that a pinch flat will occur. If the course had a lot of grassy terrain, you could surely get away w/ less chance of flatting.

This thread is mainly to discuss using Stan's NoTubes in a cyclocross clincher. I personally am still experimenting with whether I can get away with running that low of pressure w/o burping the tire. I hope that if others out there are experimenting with this, that they also share their experiences!

Enjoy the riding!


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

I ran 45 lbs in 32mm Tufo Elites at all the Cross Crusade races except Barton. I went to 50 lbs at Barton because I used my 30mm tubular clinchers. I was racing at 182 last year. When I get around to reducing my gut, I'll run lower pressure.


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## jmeerse (Nov 12, 2004)

Hey CDB,
why are you running only the front as no-tubes? I've been having a problem with my back (set at 40psi) burping air on remounts (if I'm really really smooth it won't burp, but if I'm not -- most of the time -- it burps), but no problems on the front. I mounted a set of Maxxis Mimo's last night and will try them out today, but I'm not optimistic about the rear.

Also, I've just got valve stems from a couple old tubes, which seem to leak air for a while till the sealant kicks in, but later will leak air again. Are the Mavic valves good?

thanks.


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## Cevan (Jul 19, 2004)

*I'm 155 lbs, I raced the master's 35+ and*



CDB said:


> Thanks for the advice. So it would be helpful when you provide low pressure guidelines (40 psi tube/clincher tire) that you also share your weight and maybe even reasonable description of your riding ability/terrain? I know maybe that is difficult to fairly describe but it can help others to decide whether the advice applies to them.
> 
> I know that I could ride a lap of a typical race course w/ my air pressure that low w/ a tube, but when I am pushing it at 100%, it is highly likely that a pinch flat will occur. If the course had a lot of grassy terrain, you could surely get away w/ less chance of flatting.
> 
> ...


I placed fifth, about 45 seconds off the winner. I usually finish in the top 10, so I'd have to rate my ability as pretty good. I point was that if it turns out that one needs 45 lbs to keep it working, then I'd probably stick with tubes. I truly hope it does work b/c I use tubeless on my mtn bike and love it.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

jmeerse said:


> Hey CDB,
> why are you running only the front as no-tubes? I've been having a problem with my back (set at 40psi) burping air on remounts (if I'm really really smooth it won't burp, but if I'm not -- most of the time -- it burps), but no problems on the front. I mounted a set of Maxxis Mimo's last night and will try them out today, but I'm not optimistic about the rear.
> 
> Also, I've just got valve stems from a couple old tubes, which seem to leak air for a while till the sealant kicks in, but later will leak air again. Are the Mavic valves good?
> ...


Why Front:
First, I wanted to utilize an extra front ksyrium I had laying around (my back one is worn out). Second, I felt that it would be the wheel that got less stress/impact and maybe a safer route to test a new technology. With the turning stresses related to steering, I figured it would put more lateral stress on the tire and a good starting point for the test. Thirdly, I felt more comfortable imagining myself peeling only one tire full of messy stans and dealing w/ only one valve/tube replacement if things went wrong out on a ride. I felt pretty comfortable relying on the tube in the rear.

Ideally, I would have a rear to test but I don't. I think the back wheel is where you might be able to make the most performance gains from low pressure getting better traction and bump reduction. But at the same time, I feel that you put a lot more stress on the rear tire due to hard accellerating and heavy braking, especially on more dry, hardpacked washboard types of bumps. I'd be nervous about burping/peeling until I had a chance to test it out a lot. For now, I am sticking to the front due to those reasons, and it most likely will be only for training. I am going planning on racing the tubulars this year.

I like the mavic valve. It seems pretty effective. I was told to put a little grease on the rubber gasket pieces to help seal the space between the rubber and the rim. So far so good. Mine doesn't have the removable valve core, which would be good for later refills.

Good luck, and keep sharing your experiences!


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

CDB said:


> I did my first race with my "Notubes converted Michelin Mud on Ksyrium" front wheel last night. I came out with the win in the "A" category! I didn't have any problems and the course did have some pretty bumpy stuff. I was careful with my lines to avoid the largest baby head rocks and on the tight hard dirt 180 turns, I erred on the conservative side. I ran a little bit firm on air pressure (50psi/168lb. rider), due to the baby head rocks and my fear of burping. I will try a little bit softer next time.


Congrats on a great ride! I've enjoyed your sensible discussion regarding this tire experiment. If there is eventually a more or less "bombproof" tire/rim combo I'd love to run it on my training wheels. It would be nice to train with tire pressure that's similar to what I race with (between 24-29 psi, I'm 134 lbs). I usually have my clinchers at 40+psi on training days to avoid flats.


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## FTM (Feb 4, 2005)

I've been running Michelin Jet (rear) and Mud (front) on Open Pros using the split inner tube method with Stan's sealant for the past month. Running the pressure at about 33psi (I'm 165) and although I'v bottomed out on some rocky technical singletrack, I haven't lost any air at all. Besides no pinch flats, I like being able to pull out those nasty goatheads andhave the tires seal immediatly. Got my first tubeless race coming up next weekend but seeing the way it has handled the singletrack, I'm not concerned.

I found that the Conti Ultralight 26" tubes work perfectly. They have a removable valve stem so I can shoot the Stan's sealant in once the tire has full bedded.

I've been running my mountain bike tubless for the last two years and have never had a flat so I'm hoping for similar luck with the cross tires.


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## goneskiian (Jan 13, 2005)

Great discussion CDB, jmeerse, ibissteel (and the rest of you)!

I have a team mate here in Seattle that used this last year and a couple more giving it a shot this year. I've been thinking about it as well, even have a set of Ksyrium SL's to use. This burping has me a bit concerned though as I'm a big dude (190+ in the buff). I may give it a shot anyway as I've got other wheels I can set up with tubes in case it doesn't work well. 

Where can I get some of those Mavic valve stems? 

Cheers!
-Ian

Edit: BTW, my team mates used the split tube method with 24" road tubes and have discovered it best to trim that liner tube to just under the bead so the tire stays on nice and tight.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

ABORT!!! ABANDON STAN'S!!! FAILURE!!!
-----
Ok, did that get your attention? If that didn't, well the sound of my tire exploding after my race yesterday like a shotgun, spraying out notubes sauce and deforming the tire in a dramatic fashion should!

So, I have used this Michelin Mud/Ksyrium for about a month now, yesterday being my third race on the setup. I have been impressed. I was literally talking it up after my race and the tire exploded simultaneously while I was mid sentence. I cannot even begin to fathom how terribly I would have crashed had this mishap occured during my race. I am feeling so humbled and fortunate. When I visualize myself in many dangerous situations during the race, it would have been really REALLY catastrophic.

Hood River CX Classic, Oregon. I got a decent start position, sitting about 6th. I ended up getting caught immediately behind an early crash in the first tight turn and had to play major catchup as 4 guys rolled off the front of the Elite field to an instant huge gap while everyone untangled and attempted to restart in their biggest gear. I ended up hopping onto Erik Tonkin's wheel when he caught me in the 4th lap and we fired up the afterburners to pull it back if possible. I ended up getting 4th place in the end and Tonkin won. After the post race tire explosion, I just am left feeling really lucky.

So, as you have probably already gathered by now, I DO NOT RECOMMEND using Stans NoTubes with Michelin Muds, just like everyone has been saying, including Notubes.com themselves. I am sticking to regular tubes/clinchers or tubies.


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## kajukembo (Jan 20, 2003)

i know this is a bit off topic, but is that an older green one. btw great job yesterday. how was the re routed Hood River course?. i went to Seattle yesterday.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

*Yes, the green ones.*

It is an older green tread on black sidewall version. But the tire was very new and in perfect condition when I started the experiment. I have a lot of tires!


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

kajukembo said:


> i went to Seattle yesterday.


And ... ???


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## kajukembo (Jan 20, 2003)

CDB said:


> It is an older green tread on black sidewall version. But the tire was very new and in perfect condition when I started the experiment. I have a lot of tires!


oh, I have no opinion about the tire, I just thought it was cool looking. How much better did the tire/wheel perform by using the tubeless solution over having a tube? 

More importantly, how was yesterday's course compared to past years?


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

No be honest, I didn't ever get to the point where I was able to utilize a lower pressure w/ confidence vs. what I'd run w/ a tube. Maybe only 2psi softer. Racing in the sloppy mud may have been better. I had intended on taking more baby steps, gradually dropping my pressure down as my experiment gave me confidence. Since there was one episode a few weeks ago when I burped the tire while experimenting w/ a pressure in the neighborhood of 42psi, I was afraid and kept it a little firmer, more like 47-48. I mentioned this earlier in some posts back a few weeks above. Again I weigh 168.

Yesterday was quite fast and dry. The new sections of the course were a lot of fun, mainly really bumpy dry fields, some small bit of a gravel driveway road w/ some rather large chunky crushed basalt that I was nervous about cutting on. I ran a bit firmer pressure than usual because if this. I prerode the loop w/ about 44-45 psi and felt I'd pinch flat the rear if I didn't pump them up. As far as differences in the new course layout, the course didn't have that steepest uphill runup in the woods like years past, and right after that spot, where you ordinarily dismounted and did a down hill switchback left hander back down into the ravine, that section was a tad different. All in all, I liked the course and felt it was a nice update. Less tight singlefile singletrack stuff. Still had the high speed 75 meter asphalt start straight, followed by a hard 90 left turn, then another hard 90 right, off the asphalt dropoff, then a bumpy 50meter straight, into a loose, off camber, dusty right turn through a narrow opening in a chainlink fence 6' wide at best. This is where the crash occured in the A race start. Totally dangerous that early into the race. But, hey, at least we had fun.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Would you be able to sum up what tubeless gives you over a tubular setup? Ignore clinchers as I understand the whole idea is to break away (or return) from that setup.

Cost?
Performance?
Weight?


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

My comparisons are below. You will have to calculate the costs/benefits for yourself. I can get my stuff at cost, so things are different for others, but it is still relative. Personally, when running clinchers, I prefer the Michelin tire because it is one of the lightest cross tires, has a really good volume, has fantastic cornering knobs w/ a pattern that hooks up well and sheds even better. For pure ride quality, the tubulars are for sure the way to go. There are an infinite # of reasons in between to choose one strategy over the other.

----------
*Standard Clincher setup:*
- Ksyrium front wheel SSL (Clincher): 715g.
- Michelin Mud tire: 350g. 
- Standard road tube, (Specialized 23-28c) : 70g 
:: Total Weight :: 1135g.
:: Pros: Lower cost, simple repair, good traction
:: Cons: Must run higher pressure to prevent pinch flat, minor weight penalty)
----------
*Tubeless Converted Clincher:*
- Ksyrium front wheel SSL (Clincher): 715g.
- Michelin Mud tire: 350g. 
- Stan's Notubes liquid: ~50g. at most?
- Mavic tubeless valve stem: 5g.?
:: Total Weight :: 1120g.
:: Pros: Cost, thorn puncture resistance, large volume, good cornering knobs, lower pressure than w/ a tube
:: Cons: tire can burp, causing rider to crash on a corner and lose pressure or on the extreme end, tire may explode dramatically, causing who-knows-what to happen. If tire blows off rim, tire bead may be rendered useless, effectively ruining a perfectly good clincher tire for later tubed use.
----------
*Tubular Clincher Tufo on Clincher rim:*
- Ksyrium front wheel SSL (Clincher): 715g.
- Tufo Tubular-Clincher 30c: 375g.
- Preventative Sealant 25g.?
:: Total Weight :: 1115g.
:: Pros: Lower cost entry into tubular-like low pressure ride, lighter than clincher w/ tube.
:: Cons: Smaller casing size, poor cornering knobs on off camber, durability, cost
----------
*Tubular route:*
- Ksyrium SSL (tubular version): Weight?, not listed on weightweenies.com
- Alternate wheel I built - Mavic Reflex/DT Swiss 240/Revolution 3x spokes: 660g.
- Tubular tire (Grifo 32 - 460g. or Tufo Flexus 310g. plus glue and preventative sealant)
- Tubular glue: 25g.? (2 tubes of Vittoria Mastik One per wheel)
:: Total Weight :: 995g. + sealant? (with my lighter DT Swiss wheel and Tufo Flexus)
:: Pros/Cons: Ability to run low pressures, good traction, I won't get into this as it is a whole other subject, full of opinions, techniques, and headaches
----------


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## Dream Plus (Feb 4, 2004)

*It's too bad..*

because Michelin treads are well designed and it was worth trying the Tubeless conversion on my MTB - too bad it didn't work. The Michelin Mud would be a good candidate for cyclocross tubeless conversion * if * it could hold up.
This kind of thing made me order a Dugast /Mich mud chimera last season.


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## sean350 (Jul 27, 2004)

Dream Plus said:


> because Michelin treads are well designed and it was worth trying the Tubeless conversion on my MTB - too bad it didn't work. The Michelin Mud would be a good candidate for cyclocross tubeless conversion * if * it could hold up.
> This kind of thing made me order a Dugast /Mich mud chimera last season.


Do you mean you ordered a Dugast tire with the Michelin mud tread? I heard of Frischknecht doing this a few years ago (before Dugast offered a 26" mountain tire). Whether you went this route or not, does anyone know what this would cost (taking a tread from another tire and having Dugast make a tubular out of it?
-Sean


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## MCBR1 (Jul 5, 2006)

CDB said:


> It is an older green tread on black sidewall version. But the tire was very new and in perfect condition when I started the experiment. I have a lot of tires!


So, that was your tire exploding, CDB! Sounded like a gunshot. I had a similar event last season soon after I got my Notubes mtb wheels. I set them up with Hutchinson Python AirLites and rode them around, raced at SkiBowl, raced short track, and raced at Oakridge. After the race, we were dipping our feet in the river and my back tire exploded spontaneously in a shower of latex sealant (all over Sean Olmstead's camelback and bike!). I attributed it to the heat, so I fixed it but flatted (boom again) during the ST the next day - the bead was stretched as it turns out. After all the exploding, I checked the Notubes site and found that that particular tire was on the "never use this tire" list because of a flimsy bead. I switched over to Contis subsequently with MUCH improved results.

I was also running Stans (as you know) at Hood River, but I have Velocity Fusion rims, Stans 700c rim strips, and Michelin Mud/Jet combo. I had about 39psi in there and I bottomed out many times on the rocks and roots on the backside of the course but they held air really well. While I consider my experience a success, I will say that I am now a little nervous about this whole thing. I wonder if 47psi is just too much for the bead to handle or whether it's something to do with the Ksyriums. When I had a set of SLs, I always found that tires were really easy to mount, making me think that tires fit loosely on Ksyriums, making them more likely to blow off.

mb


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

That's right! I remember Sean mentioning that story. Kind of like getting attacked by a flock of seagulls.

Yeah, I think with your rim/rimstrip setup, it may be a safer route. But still, for me, I like to eliminate as many variables as I can which could end in catastrophe. I know that the Michelins are on the Stan's "no" list due to their bead. That makes sense. If I owned that company, I would never endorse the use of a tire that could explode like that.

Good luck w/ your experimenting and hopefully it will work for you. Maybe your lighter weight and ability to run lower pressure will be better. I agree, maybe it was the hot sun contributing to the tire, and w/ no air movement to cool it, that could have caused the blow off. I also agree that a ksyrium slips a tire on pretty easy. Who knows. 

On the damaged tire, the worst 3" of bead looks really weird, like it snapped the kevlar strings of the bead, and melted the rubber. Where it usually looks kind of square at the bead, it is rounded off like a torch hit it and melted. I don't know if the liquid caused that, or if it was from the friction/heat of the explosion.

For me, it's just not worth the risk vs. the benefit. I'm ok with that.


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## Dream Plus (Feb 4, 2004)

*Dugast/Michelin*

I bought one from Cyclocrossworld.com last year when they had a limited run. They are listed as "out of stock" now. I used it on the front at muddy races, and was pretty happy with the tire's performance.


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## twango (Nov 19, 2006)

*notubes tire survey*

CDB, I'm wondering if you've given up on the notubes setup or have experimented with other tires? I've been cyclocrossing on stans for a couple seasons now and am always searching for the "perfect" tire. I have stans 355 rims which have a much deeper hook and hold air better than standard bead rims. Still, I've had tires pop off, namely the Larsen Mimos. Geax Blades hold on great as do all wire beaded tires. It would be great if we could start a sort of database of stans compatible cyclocross tires. Sounds like Michelin Mud and Larsen Mimos would be first on the "don't use" list.


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## g-Bike (Jan 25, 2006)

Ok here we go, it is always interesting how many people want to convert or custom build something out of something that was not designed to perform as such. A clincher tire relies on a tube for side wall structure and ride quality. I would bet that most of the persons who are trying to "save money" by converting these wheels end up wasting more time (which is money) in the hopes of "making it work" for benefits that do not exist. If you have an old Ksyrium wheel around go to your LBS and order a tubular Ksyrium tubular rim and rebuild, if you don't have tubulars and want to experience the low pressure ride qualities and supple sidewall characteristics you need to get tubulars, remember most clinchers only have ~120 TPI sidewalls, tufos have up to 410 TPI. I am not knocking anyone for trying something new but I just wonder who much time is wasted and how many injuries have occurred in hopes of "Making it Work" Just something to think about. I have 2 sets of tubulars and some set of clinchers for cross. The Tubular wheel sets are as follows, Ambrossio cronos rims with revolution spokes, dura ace hubs with Tufo Elite tires, then Ksyrium Tubulars with Elites, and Finally for training, clincher open pros with 14/15 spokes and dura ace hubs. Enjoy and remember it is better to spend more time riding and training then worrying about "Making it work" Keep the rubber side down.


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## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

@g-Bike: Offcourse the paved way is allways the safest. But remember: Converting to tubeless by sealant has been shown to be very effective on mountainbikes. The benefits on are very clear: Very low weight, very low rolling resistance and a lot of resistance against punctures.

Offcourse people like CDB hope to make it work! As I see it, he is a racer with both feet on the ground, taking it step by step to reap the benefits of this system. To me, the key to the succes of this system is Michelin putting out a "Mud3" with Notubes proof beads! That is all that is left to make it work.

I also doubt your claim about the lack of suppleness of regular tires. A Mud2 without inner tube is as least as supple as a Tufo at the same pressure, possibly even better. TPI does not say anything to me: If they used a lot of layers of the high TPI cloth and coat it with some airtight layer, like they do at Tufo, you still lose the suppleness. 

I do not think there is any point in wondering how much time has been wasted by trying this system. How about the time and trouble needed to mount tubulars?!? How about the possible injury because of a rolled tubular if you got glueing it wrong?


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## g-Bike (Jan 25, 2006)

I think it is more rare that tubulars get rolled off the rim is standard set up and cure time is used. Cyclocrossworld.com has a great 4 day set up and safe as well. They offer the muds in a tubie and if you absolutely love something it should be worth it's weight in gold right? Cross is a very short period of time and to allow major setbacks or worse injuries a the pleasure of talking about "making something work" is one decision I chose not to make. I love cross and want to enjoy every minute of the season. It is all about the fight within, to either continue and work through the pain or give into it but then you have to live with your decisions. I have never rolled a tubie and run super low pressure 27-30 psi in a 32 tufo elite.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*but why go to all that trouble*

when you can just go Tubs?
I mean all the cost, time and effort could have been put into a setting up a vicious set of Tubs WE KNOW WILL WORK.


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## cliff (Sep 23, 2004)

*Stan's works for me*

OK-I posted last summer that I switched to Stan's with the Stan's wheel setup. I saved a ton of weight over my previous clincher and/or tubular-clincher set up. I'm running a Panasonic Crossblaster in the front and a Ritchey Excavader in the rear. Each tire cost me 30-35 bucks. Easy mounting the tires. Run the rear at 35# and the front about the same depending on conditions. I've run the front as low as 25# without incident. The rims are wide, so the tire footprint is different and the ride is subliminal. 

I'm not against tubulars, but I will say my tires are way cheaper, possibly more durable (sidewalls), it's just as light and I run pressures low enough for me. Mounting is easier than tubulars and believe me I rode tubulars on the road for years in the early '80's, and since the road pressure is higher, the gluing technique is not even quite as critical. And repair...How many times do you recall putting the needle through the tube when resewing the tire!!! Well, only a couple, but that was frustrating enough.

One advantage tubulars have is rim strength. With the pressure low, it's more likely that you'll dent the light stan's clincher rim. I have, done it, but no seal break. I took off the tire after I got home a couple of hours later, pounded out the dent and remounted it with out incident (except the slight blip when braking! ) The other advantage for tubulars is the ability to ride on a flat tire-providing your gluding job is stellar! The leader of our race rolled his tire yesterday.


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## twango (Nov 19, 2006)

Cliff, I have the same setup, stans 355 rims that is. In general, I love it. The only incident I've had is with the Maxxis Larson mimo tires popping off. Too bad, because they're nice tires. Running those low pressures hasn't been that sucessful for me in tires with thin casings, not because of flats but that they feel too squishy. 40 psi seems about the lower limit (I'm 185). I've had Geax Blades on all summer and they work great but are not very fast. Have you tried other tires other than the excavater and crossblaster? I'd like to find a tire that's around 35mm, lightweight and fast. The michelins would be perfect but I'm reluctant to chance it. I wonder if the 355 rims would provide enough extra support to make them work. Are you using a rim strip or just yellow tape?


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## green_mnt_boy (Oct 10, 2006)

*another successful Stan's NoTubes user*

Twango -- give the Schwalbe Racing Ralphs a try. I've got them on my mnt bike and think they fit the bill. Other folks on the forum have said they ride good and corner well.

I've got a set of Stan's cyclocross wheels with Vittoria EVO XG 32mm cross tires. I'm using them tubeless without the rim strip. Mounting and sealing is easy if you have an air compressor. I have not run them over 35psi and have never really bottomed them out, maybe once while riding some gnarly mnt bike terrain... These tires are fast, but don't seem to be very durable. I wanted to run the Challenge Grifo clinchers, but was told that the notubes juice would eat holes in them.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> when you can just go Tubs?
> I mean all the cost, time and effort could have been put into a setting up a vicious set of Tubs WE KNOW WILL WORK.


Tubs totally work, however they can be a lot of work. I flatted a Griffo that did not have removable valve cores. It was 3 races old. So now it has to come. Alright, I put on a vittoria to try it out. works pretty good, but after 3 more races I slash a sidewall. Okay, bad things happen, can't do much about it. Then I go with some Tufo's front and back with removable valve cores add sealant and everything is perfect until the end of the year with the exception of the last race that is super muddy and greasy. I have the Elites on my bike and they are not great in the wet and would really like to go to some different tires, but it is just too much work. I like the idea of Tubi's, but I think I would need 3 sets of wheels to make it really good especially living where it can be dry one day and pouring the next. If I could run a stans set up that works I could have 5 set of tires and one set of really nice wheels and have tons of options. I sometimes feel a bit limited. Stans is way less work than Tubi's, I have the blisters on my hands, from removing the old tubs, to prove it. I think the work right now is finding what works and what does not w/ stans. If there was a list of 3 companies tires that work really well with a certain type of rim I would give it a go. If this never happens then I guess I am buying a couple of sets of tubular wheels and a whole bunch of glue.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well for the price*

of a set of Ksyriums and Stans and Mich Muds
I could buy 2 sets of 32 hole Ultegra Tub wheelsets and tires. (I've done it multiple times)
Tub wheelsets are cheap usually 200, add 50-80 for tires and say 25 for a cassette and it's $300 invested. x2 $600 what's the price of a set of K's?


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> of a set of Ksyriums and Stans and Mich Muds
> I could buy 2 sets of 32 hole Ultegra Tub wheelsets and tires. (I've done it multiple times)
> Tub wheelsets are cheap usually 200, add 50-80 for tires and say 25 for a cassette and it's $300 invested. x2 $600 what's the price of a set of K's?


Well, I never really got into the cost thing. Was not really my point per say. You are right K's are a lot more money. But there is no reason why we could not use a stans set up on a pre build ultegra wheel set ( clincher). This would in effect bring the cost lower than the tubi's. 
Again, it is not really a money thing, more of a time thing. Peeling off tubi's and re gluing is time consuming. ATP I think you live in the bay area or a bit more south. the need for different tires on different days may not be as pertinent. I think it has rained up here for 2 weeks straight. I would just like be able to give myself a bit less work at times. The Tufo's with sealant will a long way to that end. I would still try a stans clincher if it worked really well.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well what I'm saying COST*



spacemanrides said:


> Well, I never really got into the cost thing. Was not really my point per say. You are right K's are a lot more money. But there is no reason why we could not use a stans set up on a pre build ultegra wheel set ( clincher). This would in effect bring the cost lower than the tubi's.
> Again, it is not really a money thing, more of a time thing. Peeling off tubi's and re gluing is time consuming. ATP I think you live in the bay area or a bit more south. the need for different tires on different days may not be as pertinent. I think it has rained up here for 2 weeks straight. I would just like be able to give myself a bit less work at times. The Tufo's with sealant will a long way to that end. I would still try a stans clincher if it worked really well.


is you could have a littany, a plethora, a cornucopia of tubs for much less. yes our terrian is different (So Cal), we have tire killers(baby heads, rocks on talc powder dirt) ,
regular cross courses, super dry and fast courses and when it rains slog fests as you haven't dealt with mud until you've dealt with wet sandstone clay.
So our needs for a variety of tires IMHO is probably GREATER than in most areas.
first rule: good tires (Grifos, Tufo elites, etc..) don't get used on tire killer courses or you wind up like you have (torn sidewalls). Use the regular T model Tufos or the Vittorias.
So you can have a variety wherever you live, and IMHO it can be done better and cheaper with Tubs.
I have 3 sets of wheels for my 2 cx bikes. 1 set of Grifos for each, 1 set of Tufo T's or used prestige/Elite combo I no longer worry about and 1 set of clinchers (used for commuting and then can toss a set of semislicks or tub clinchers for fast courses where pinch flatting isn't an issue.
my guess is my 6 sets of wheels with tires for a variety of surfaces is still cheaper than a set of Zipps


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## twango (Nov 19, 2006)

Well, any wire beaded tire will work every time without exception with stans. I've used Ritchie megabites and ircs. They're a little heavier but if used without tubes the weight equals out somewhat. Stans is less hassle than tubulars but you need a compressor to get that initial blast that seats the bead.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*less hassle*



twango said:


> Well, any wire beaded tire will work every time without exception with stans. I've used Ritchie megabites and ircs. They're a little heavier but if used without tubes the weight equals out somewhat. Stans is less hassle than tubulars but you need a compressor to get that initial blast that seats the bead.


I think needing a compressor and only using heavier wire beaded tires is a bit more of a hassle. are you guys glue a phobic? it really isn't that hard, I'm no friggin' wrench genius and I figgered it out quick.

oh and CDB you do know your avatar is the Flemish seperatist flag, yes?


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> I think needing a compressor and only using heavier wire beaded tires is a bit more of a hassle. are you guys glue a phobic? it really isn't that hard, I'm no friggin' wrench genius and I figgered it out quick.
> 
> oh and CDB you do know your avatar is the Flemish seperatist flag, yes?


Not glue phobic, but it does take more time. All gas stations have compressors, so with a presta adaptor it is pretty straight forward. 
honestly, the statement that racing in SoCal is more diverse is optomisitic at best. Yes clay is tough, but how many days does it rain in SoCal on the average. If you live in protland,seattle, vanocuver or anywhere in between you are dealing with a ton of different weather! I agree tubi's are excellent, but they can be a hassle at times. Also, tread patterns aren't as diverse a with clinchers. The casings are superior in Tubi's, but more work in general.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> I think needing a compressor and only using heavier wire beaded tires is a bit more of a hassle. are you guys glue a phobic? it really isn't that hard, I'm no friggin' wrench genius and I figgered it out quick.
> 
> oh and CDB you do know your avatar is the Flemish seperatist flag, yes?


Actually the hot ticket is Maxxis rim strips. I tried Stan's a few years ago and gave up, too finicky (this is MTB though). Year and a half ago after getting 5 flats in two weeks on my freeride bike I read about Maxxis strips, heck They only cost $5.00 so I thought I'd give it a shot. These things rule, they address all the problems with the Stans setup. They are molded rubber that wraps completely up the side of the rim, this means the tire bead seats against the rubber of the rimstrip not the slippery side of the Aluminum rim. The inner profile has bead locks molded in so they look like the interior of a UST MTB rim. These two things combine to make these impossible to blow a bead off and they seal with just a floor pump. I'm currently running them on all three of my MTB's and will never go back, tubes suck.


EDIT: The separatist flag differs from the Flandrian flag in that it doesn't have the red accents right? The separatist party aren't particularly nice.


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## cliff (Sep 23, 2004)

Twango, I'm using the stan's rim with only the yellow rim tape. I've read (on the stan's forums) that Schwalbes and Kendas work well, but have not personally tried them. The Ritchey Excavader is 330 grams, is 35 C and is also available with a wire bead for really cheap. The folding excavader is $40, the wire bead is $30. The Panasonic Crossblaster is also 325 grams and is listed as 31C, but seems wider, especially on the stan's rim. That was a $45 tire, and it wears faster. I was looking at the Maxxis Rze until I read about your larson...


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## singlering (Feb 19, 2006)

The biggest reason to have tubeless clinchers is the availability of different profiles. And don,t tell me you can get a Dugast/mud for $130 a peice.
I have (and am) running tubulars on several wheelsets. None of them is round (I don,t care too much). Some of my TUFO tubulars are 6 years old and cost per race is low.
Still would like to try tubeless. 
Keep the info coming!!!


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

I've got a set of Kenda Cross supremes. Ran them in the mud at New Hope and they ROCK. A little heavy, but great grip.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

*I'm just wondering....*

Is all this worth it? Really? For what advantage(es)? Is the average cross racer going to really notice 20-30gms less on his wheels when the possibility of failure is (apparantly) somewhat catastrophic? Just wondering......(I'll be sticking with my Tufo tubie/clinchers and clinchers for backup, just so you know....)


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yup*



OnTheRivet said:


> EDIT: The separatist flag differs from the Flandrian flag in that it doesn't have the red accents right? The separatist party aren't particularly nice.


regular Lion of Flanders has red toenails, tongue etc...

I grew up in Nor Cal and have ridden in Ore and Wash. you have basically two types of dirt
ego dirt and various forms of muddy ego dirt.

you guys have no idea what sh!t dirt is until you ride through 2" of Talc on Riverstone encrusted packed clay. when our clay gets wet YOU WALK, it fills up every nook and cranny so fast nothing rotates. I was at Nats in Portland I've experienced bad NW mud.

yes it doesn't rain much (except 2 winters ago where it rained more down here than in the PNW) but again, we have maybe 1 or 2 races a season where the course would be what I consider 'traditional cx dirt' the rest are on a variety of crap that would make most of you guys used to riding on dirt that 'hooks up' scream "You ride this crap?". So we need variety, everything from damn near fully slick, to full knobs. But it does make us good bike handlers. In case you weren't sure about that, the Masters 35 winner at the USGP Lakewood WA last week was Mark Noble from SoCal. He won the nats in Portland, and podiumed in the snow last year. Really and I don't mean this in any negative way, you guys shouldn't take your dirt for granted. We dream about riding on stuff that nice. It really sux here, honestly.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*on this Thanksgiving Weekend*

be thankful for loamy brown dirt. be thankful for traction. went out on my local loop, still showing marks from the last cx race. thought I'd share so ya'll could see how good ya got it. yes we race cx bikes on this
(multi posts coming)


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*the chicane section.*

the good line is right next to the cactus


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*here's the nice parts*

and some 'mix dirt'. the fence on the left is the velodrome.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm thinkin' the line straight thru the washed out gulley isn't the best, yes?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yeah that comes pretty quickly after*



Kram59 said:


> I'm thinkin' the line straight thru the washed out gulley isn't the best, yes?


you leave the velodrome. So those of us out front got a nice gap after the pile up. I think one guy paniced at the top and all chaos broke out.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> regular Lion of Flanders has red toenails, tongue etc...
> 
> I grew up in Nor Cal and have ridden in Ore and Wash. you have basically two types of dirt
> ego dirt and various forms of muddy ego dirt.
> ...


Okay, I am not sure that is totally fair. From the pictures that you sent does not give me the impression that it is really technical, just really rough. I live in Canada and raced in Seattle 4 times this year. I have raced in Portland 3 times. My observation is this. When you race in Seattle the courses have all the elements of a cross race. Lots of off camber, lots hairpins, lots of sand....god when I did the labour day cross race I had to use a compressor to get all the sand out of my shoes. Multiple running sections both up and flat. Kabush put it best when he said that he was hoping for an epic day in Portland and got one. The races in the PNW are epic. The best riders in US come from the east and west for cross, because they race on the hardest courses. California has as many people in it than all of Canada and granted they do produce some fine cross racers, but on the average you are seeing the best come from where the racing is the hardest. All cross races are good cross races, I don't think anyone would argue that. This started because the question was raised about the need for different treads and the such.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well....*



spacemanrides said:


> Okay, I am not sure that is totally fair. From the pictures that you sent does not give me the impression that it is really technical, just really rough. .


rough, rocky and no traction at speed makes it technical. you ride those sections pushing 20 and hit the corners where a thin layer of sand (and fine talc like sand) covers asphalt-hard hard pack with rocks. there's off cambers and hairpins too, all in that sort of terrain. oh and railing corners around roots and rocks with cactus serving as course tape makes it 'technical'. No doubt you have many of the best in the PNW, I ain't doubting that, been there, seen it and am sooo jealous I'm green like your forests. But I grew up in stuff like that, we call it ego dirt, your tires stick to it, we have little such love down here, everything is a controlled slide and if you can ride this crap down here fast (on MTB as well) you can pretty much fly in most other places. Just staying upright at speed down here requires 'technical skill' but these were only a few sections shown there are quite a few hairpins and off cambers (and lotsa sand, some ya run, some ya ride)
This digression started because the claim was made that since it doesn't rain much down here our tire needs are somehow less than elsewhere. Now we do have some courses that would fall under what we could refer to as 'classic cx courses' and we have others that are even more jungle cross than the featured sections above. So my point is, rain conditions aren't the only thing that makes for diverse tire needs. Sunday is our Turkey Trot course which is a classic Grifo course, it's the one course where you truly feel like it's a full on cx race. But other days we have grass crits, and others like the pix above. That in itself requires a vast selection of tires and pressure choices. Oh and you wanna talk nasty, you should see this stuff when it is wet. turns to clay and will fill your stays until the wheel n longer rotates. 
So again be thankful for the dirt you have, be trhankful you are not used to the sound of river stone bottoming against your rim. Be thankful that when you hit a bush it doesn't leave 1" spines in you and your tires.
yeah the PNW rocks, your scene and riders rule but at the USGP 2 weekends ago and the Nats in Portland ya'll got owned by a SoCal-er in the 35 masters on your turf.


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