# Switching back from electrical Di2 to mechanical. Unheard of?



## FutureTriathlonKiller (Nov 5, 2013)

I feel like I'm in the minority as I've never met or talked to anyone who doesn't love Di2, but I'm not blown away by it right now. I know some might call me crazy. Thinking about switching back to mechanical Dura-Ace 9000. Have any of you gone back to mechanical after being underwhelmed by Di2? I don't know if it is the modest extra bulkiness it adds, the fact it feels like my bike is a computer now, or mental fear about it dying on me in some isolated area 50 miles out (even if I keep battery charged). Whatever the reason, I'm just not as excited as I thought I was going to be. Had a ball on ultegra and dura-ace mechanical though. But just want to see have others made this reversal or have had negative experiences with Di2. Thanks and let me know.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

No I have not 'switched back', but who cares? If you don't like electronic shifting, go back to the cable system. Pretty simple solution.


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## FutureTriathlonKiller (Nov 5, 2013)

Since you didn't do it and sounds like you are not aware of anyone who did it, I'm not for sure why you responded. Post wasn't made to find out who cares or not. 



Special Eyes said:


> No I have not 'switched back', but who cares? If you don't like electronic shifting, go back to the cable system. Pretty simple solution.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

FutureTriathlonKiller said:


> Since you didn't do it and sounds like you are not aware of anyone who did it, I'm not for sure why you responded. Post wasn't made to find out who cares or not.


so you joined in 2013 and you don't know how RBR works yet? I just switched to STI's after years with down tube levers. I was fairly inderwhelmed. So I ordered a bike with levers (bar end this time). So I feel you even if you didn't want to know


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Not sure what the OP is actually asking myself, I see I am not alone.

I have a friend that had one failure on his 10 Speed Di2 after 30k I think he said.

I am thinking the odds are really not much different of being 50 miles out and having a non rideable issue Di2 VS Cables. 

I guess one bite would cause some paranoia though.

I have not heard or read of anyone going back, which mean nada probably.

Is your DI2 early or newer CANBUS like 6770/6870/9070 ??


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

At least on 7-8 occassions where I see people with electronic shifting (from both Shimano and Campy) have had issues on the road. Most of the time it's usually the rear derailleur not shifting. I equate electronic shift to driving an automatic. Mechanical to a manual.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm not ever going to buy electronic snifters myself so I will not have to switch back. Money saved on that one. Whew!


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> At least on 7-8 occassions where I see people with electronic shifting (from both Shimano and Campy) have had issues on the road. Most of the time it's usually the rear derailleur not shifting. I equate electronic shift to driving an automatic. Mechanical to a manual.


Well that's not a real good comparison. Di2 would be more like a semi automatic like most sports cars nowadays. There are only a few left being manufactured with a manual gear box.

Op,
Not that I've made the switch, but Ive had 9070 and have gotten a bike with 9000 which I upgraded to 9070 after a few rides.
I recently built up a bike with red22 and don't have issues riding mechanical. I do plan on going to their new wireless system when sram decides to sell it.

I think if you go back to mechanical you might appreciate electronic more.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

My next road bike will be back to mechanical. Changing a bike back can be a problem, as there is nothing nowhere's to hook any cables to. So we'll see when the new bike is sent to the backup rack.

I am waiting for electronic for my MBike & will make that change.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

A good friend has Di2 for almost three years. He's getting a new bike with mechanical DA. His reasoning is he wants something different. He feels Di2 does everything he imagined or wanted but is looking for a change.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

I have only ever test ridden elect. Shimano equipped bikes. Pushing little buttons on my bike just doesn't 'do it' for me.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

Not switching back, love it so much I just put DA Di2 on my new bike. Have over 5,000km on my Ultegra Di2 and zero issues. Would never go back.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

My primary bike is di2, the backup is the previous campy bike. I like the Di2 better. Sure it requires a bit more "work" in the sense of charging a battery once in a while... but then so does my cyclecomputer ... lots of guys these days also have gps's that need charging and constant fiddling also... look OP just do what you want, whatever makes you happy is the right answer.

/edit to add: for racing, di2 is definitely an improvement, I'll say that unequivocally. But for the vast majority of people who don't race and never will, it's just conspicuous consumption.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

While I haven't purchased Ui2 or Di2 I did ride Ui2 for a week in Spain last Fall on a rental bike. I was very underwhelmed by it and am happy I never made the switch. For me it was that, basically, the system decided when it was time to actually execute the shift. Like many here I'm sure, from years of riding mechanical, I instinctively know where in the pedal stroke is the right place for me to shift. The electronic system clearly disagrees with me by enough that it's noticeable and I ended up waiting for a shift when I wanted/expected it NOW i.e. when I pushed the button. 

Replacing cables/housing every 5-10k miles isn't that much of a pain after having done it so many times and it makes sure that I look *very* closely at my bikes at least once a year (though I usually do a basic pre/post ride inspection). 

Now if wireless comes out and turns out to be reliable after a few years, that might be worth the change assuming I like the ergonomics of the levers etc.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Upnorth said:


> Not switching back, love it so much I just put DA Di2 on my new bike. Have over 5,000km on my Ultegra Di2 and zero issues. Would never go back.


Same here


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## brinox (Jul 30, 2010)

OldChipper said:


> I instinctively know where in the pedal stroke is the right place for me to shift. *The electronic system clearly disagrees with me by enough that it's noticeable and I ended up waiting for a shift when I wanted/expected it NOW i.e. when I pushed the button.*


This statement makes absolutely no sense to me and is false on all accounts. As far as I've read, Shimano Di2 has no knowledge of where you are in the cycle of your pedal stroke. On both of my Di2 equipped bikes, I push any one of the shift buttons and the shift begins there immediately.

I won't disagree that the derailleurs have some kind of logic built in that looks for and increase in force applied to the cage while the shift ramps circle around to start moving the chain on the front. Outside of that, I really don't see how Di2 could 'know' where a certain part of the chainring or cassette ring is in relation to the derailleur during a commanded shift.

Shimano, care to enlighten us on this?!


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

good bye.............................................


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

brinox said:


> This statement makes absolutely no sense to me and is false on all accounts. As far as I've read, Shimano Di2 has no knowledge of where you are in the cycle of your pedal stroke. On both of my Di2 equipped bikes, I push any one of the shift buttons and the shift begins there immediately.
> 
> I won't disagree that the derailleurs have some kind of logic built in that looks for and increase in force applied to the cage while the shift ramps circle around to start moving the chain on the front. Outside of that, I really don't see how Di2 could 'know' where a certain part of the chainring or cassette ring is in relation to the derailleur during a commanded shift.
> 
> Shimano, care to enlighten us on this?!


OK, I rode it for a week and hundreds of miles and can't tell when a shift happens or doesn't in relation to when I push a button. I thought I read somewhere that it senses where you are in the pedal stroke and shifts in the "optimal" spot. I can think of several ways they could do that, but maybe they don't. 

There. Are your panties untwisted now and you're feeling better about the extra money you spent? Cool. (I'm still not switching to Di2 though).


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

OldChipper said:


> The electronic system clearly disagrees with me by enough that it's noticeable and I ended up waiting for a shift when I wanted/expected it NOW i.e. when I pushed the button.
> 
> Now if wireless comes out and turns out to be reliable after a few years, that might be worth the change assuming I like the ergonomics of the levers etc.


Really? In both my Di2 bikes, the shift takes place immediately upon the gentle pressing of the button, far easier and quicker than pushing a lever two or three inches (no, that's not hard to do!) There is no waiting. With my cable bikes, it is quite fast, but does take a tiny bit longer to shift, especially when gong to a larger diameter gear. Reliability is an opinion, as so many people that have had only one isolated negative issue will complain endlessly about the whole system and concept like it's the most horrible thing out there. For many Di2 users, especially those that don't bother to participate in these threads, the system works quite well all the time. There are tens of thousands of us very happy and with no problems. Forums and these threads attract mainly the bellyachers who are too happy to complain about the slightest things, especially those that can be remedied with either a little more experience or a simple adjustment.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Always felt electronic was a solution for a problem I didn't have. I could almost buy into disc brakes on a road bike, but electronic shifting seems pointless to me.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

FutureTriathlonKiller said:


> or mental fear about it dying on me in some isolated area 50 miles out (even if I keep battery charged).


I wouldn't let that be a determining factor at all. I've never heard or seen someone with di2 stuck out on a ride with a dead battery. 
However I have heard of and seen numerous people stuck out on rides with a broken shift cable.

How many times has your di2 gone in limp mode while on a ride?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

tlg said:


> I wouldn't let that be a determining factor at all. I've never heard or seen someone with di2 stuck out on a ride with a dead battery.
> However I have heard of and seen numerous people stuck out on rides with a broken shift cable.
> 
> How many times has your di2 gone in limp mode while on a ride?


Owner of a local bike shop said he loves DI2, but after having a problem in a race he was going back to mechanical


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> Owner of a local bike shop said he loves DI2, but after having a problem in a race he was going back to mechanical


Of the 17 teams on the 2015 world tour...
13 are running di2
2 are running campy EPS

If there were really problems while racing, I doubt all these pro teams would be risking it.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

tlg said:


> Of the 17 teams on the 2015 world tour...
> 13 are running di2
> 2 are running campy EPS
> 
> If there were really problems while racing, I doubt all these pro teams would be risking it.


These guys have professional support crews


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> These guys have professional support crews


So what's your point? di2 requires more support?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

tlg said:


> So what's your point? di2 requires more support?


Potentially, yes


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

I have 22,000 kms on my Ultegra Di2 bike with zero issues. Mind you I had no problems with my mechanical Ultegra bike but I still liked it better than 105 and I'm sure there are 105 owners that had no problems with Tiagra etc. I laugh when DA owners say that Di2 is a waste of money. Buy what pleases you, don't concern yourself with the choices of others.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> Potentially, yes


What exactly requires more support?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I don't know why people on-line treat choosing an electric or mechanical group set like choosing a religion. People on the road have both and/or have had both and it's not a big deal either way. You hit the lever and it shifts. The subtle difference won't win or lose a race or make a ride more or less enjoyable for all but the most OCD.

Just get whatever you want.


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## brinox (Jul 30, 2010)

I have 3 bikes, two of which are Di2 and one that's 105 5800. This mechanical is a Speshy Allez Comp and really only serves as a cheaper bike to race crits while I'm still a racing supernewb.

Its a slightly weird feeling switching from one drivetrain type to the other midweek honestly. If I could make my Allez work with an internal Di2 configuration, and I had the money to burn in doing so, I'd prefer that.

In the group rides around my area, here's the things that I really like about Di2 compared to mechanical:

Holding the shift button to scale the part or the entire cassette, either direction, is fantastic. It makes prepping my gear selection while stopping at a stopsign/stoplight minimal. In that same regard, ramping up on a sprint and just being able to hold the button to select a higher gear without letting off the power as the speed progresses is *by far* one of the coolest feelings I have ever experienced with Di2.

Lastly, the ergonomic feel of the regular non-hydraulic Di2 shift levers make me VERY happy with my cockpit.

I really think the battery fear is unfounded because Di2 never needs to be "turned off" and charges will last at least a few weeks if not much longer, depending on your riding habits. Just like a bike computer, you need to manage Di2's battery, but its definitely less battery hungry compared to my Garmin 510. I'd even go so far as to say its on a similar page as maintaining your tire pressures.

Op, what else is it about Di2 that bothers you? I ask because the things you mentioned come off as new component adjustments that we all make when moving to something new rather than an actual impediment while riding.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Last week I road my B bike due to wet weather and got in 150 miles with mechanical...then read this thread. Seems I forgot pretty early on in the ride I was not on Di2. I did notice today getting back on the Di2 bike that shifting was faster and lever action is reduced. In addition, I think less about shifting on Di2 and it also lightens up the front of the bike a bit too. 

Di2 is cool and works well. This is what it is supposed to do. Same for mechanical. Enjoy your ride.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Trek_5200 said:


> Always felt electronic was a solution for a problem I didn't have. I could almost buy into disc brakes on a road bike, but electronic shifting seems pointless to me.


So what you're saying is that you don't own a Di2 bike, never have and you're comfortable giving your opinion on it based on your lack of experience with the product. Well this is the internet so that makes sense. btw what problems did the 6800 solve for you that 105 couldn't?


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

The non owers and Geezers that still have trouble with the microwave will always jump in and complain about what they don't have. However 99% of the Di2 or EPS users seem to be very happy with digital shifting. People that dislike the battery and say it will let them down have not used the system. During our summer months I average 400 to 600 kms/week which is above average distance, I charge my battery once a month at best. What is so difficult about that??? Gotta plug the Garmin in 2-3 times a week. No one is making anyone to buy it.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

brinox said:


> Holding the shift button to scale the part or the entire cassette, either direction, is fantastic.


Yep, truly awesome. We did that with our downtube shifters thirty years go. Campagnolo always had that capability for their shifters (well, not the entire cassette, but about half of it); MUCH faster than the servos in your electronic group, too.

Amazing what progress can do for you.

P.S.: I truly have no idea at all why people keep babbling about shifting under load. There is no difference, none at all, in that capability between electrical and mechanical groups. The actual mechanics is exactly the same. If you can do it with electrical, you can do it with mechanical, too.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Pirx said:


> P.S.: I truly have no idea at all why people keep babbling about shifting under load. There is no difference, none at all, in that capability between electrical and mechanical groups. The actual mechanics is exactly the same. If you can do it with electrical, you can do it with mechanical, too.


Respectfully, disagree in part. Shifting under load with Di2 requires only a push of the button and the FD or RD torques the chain over with precision. Mechanical will require the spring load of the FD or RD to shift OR your hand action to provide the force needed. Not here to argue semantics but if the load is so much you need to soft pedal the gear change because it didnt engage or you have to muscle the shift then there is a benefit to electronic.


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## cnardone (Jun 28, 2014)

mimason said:


> Not here to argue semantics but if the load is so much you need to soft pedal the gear change because it didnt engage or you have to muscle the shift then there is a benefit to electronic.


I am a noob. So serious question. Do nicer group sets often need soft pedaling? I had to often soft pedal with my Sora bike, but never my ultegra. 

cmn


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

cnardone said:


> I am a noob. So serious question. Do nicer group sets often need soft pedaling? I had to often soft pedal with my Sora bike, but never my ultegra.
> 
> cmn


Nicer groups like your Ultegra are more refined, stiffer and designed to execute shifts better etc etc. Soft pedaling is not something that is always required but it is also a good practice to soft pedal on purpose to reduce drive train stress. It'll certainly makes your drivetrain last longer and wear better and lessen likelihood of breaking something. Soft pedaling can be a safety thing as well in the case where a unexpected 'misshift' drops a chain and you freewheel the crank resulting in collapsing your soft tissue on the top tube/saddle etc.


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## eriku16 (Jul 27, 2011)

Special Eyes said:


> Really? In both my Di2 bikes, the shift takes place immediately upon the gentle pressing of the button, far easier and quicker than pushing a lever two or three inches (no, that's not hard to do!) There is no waiting. With my cable bikes, it is quite fast, but does take a tiny bit longer to shift, especially when gong to a larger diameter gear. Reliability is an opinion, as so many people that have had only one isolated negative issue will complain endlessly about the whole system and concept like it's the most horrible thing out there. For many Di2 users, especially those that don't bother to participate in these threads, the system works quite well all the time. There are tens of thousands of us very happy and with no problems. Forums and these threads attract mainly the bellyachers who are too happy to complain about the slightest things, especially those that can be remedied with either a little more experience or a simple adjustment.


There seems to be a notion that electronic is faster than mechanical. How can that be when shifting speed is ultimately limited by your cadence? That is, with a properly tuned mechanical setup. On Campy Ultrashift, there is no lag. The lever travel is short on the downshift and the thumb action is immediate on the upshift. Time and time again, I can shift faster, sweeping through the cogs faster than Di2 at the same cadence.

Reliability of the system is a concern since electronic shifting is much more complex. With more points of failure introduced, the greater potential for failure. If any failure or damage happens, either on the road or elsewhere (like a power failure during a firmware upgrade) the user will be faced with the dilemma of a possible lengthy downtown depending on the availability of spares and/or the competency to do the repairs. The the compatibility nightmare and planned obsolescence of the systems makes electronic shifting not attractive for me. Hello! Any one Di2 7970? No upgrades for you! Time to buy a new system. :thumbsup:

Who knows what you buy today will be still supported 5-10yrs from now. The non user serviceable parts (switches, servos and circuitry) along with the batteries (<5yrs) have a finite life. The consumer grade cables and switches are not even up to automotive grade. All this for the convenience of a electric motor substituting the simple job of an organic one.


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## eriku16 (Jul 27, 2011)

mimason said:


> Respectfully, disagree in part. Shifting under load with Di2 requires only a push of the button and the FD or RD torques the chain over with precision. Mechanical will require the spring load of the FD or RD to shift OR your hand action to provide the force needed. Not here to argue semantics but if the load is so much you need to soft pedal the gear change because it didnt engage or you have to muscle the shift then there is a benefit to electronic.


There is no spring to assist to shift up front to the big ring. Only when you shift down. I'm talking about those who say front shifting is better than mechanical.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

eriku16 said:


> The the compatibility nightmare and planned obsolescence of the systems makes electronic shifting not attractive for me. Hello! Any one Di2 7970? No upgrades for you! Time to buy a new system. :thumbsup:


Which is different from any mechanical group how? I can't slap a 11 speed rear derailleur on my mech DA7900 and expect to get an 11 speed bike. WIth the new electronic you can. You can get 11 speed using the "10 speed" 6770 shifters. There is actually increased compatibility with the new E-Tube design.



Pirx said:


> P.S.: I truly have no idea at all why people keep babbling about shifting under load. There is no difference, none at all, in that capability between electrical and mechanical groups. The actual mechanics is exactly the same. If you can do it with electrical, you can do it with mechanical, too.


The Campy EPS front generates 52Nm of torque when it shifts. So no, the mechanics are not exactly the same.

Edit: I also forgot to add that you can customize the Di2 levers. For example you can have a 1x11 setup where the right shifter shifts up and the left shifts down. Can you do that with mechanical? 

How To: Update Shimano Di2 to Multishift, Customize Button Function & Change Shift Speed


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

deviousalex said:


> Which is different from any mechanical group how? I can't slap a 11 speed rear derailleur on my mech DA7900 and expect to get an 11 speed bike. WIth the new electronic you can. You can get 11 speed using the "10 speed" 6770 shifters. There is actually increased compatibility with the new E-Tube design.


I envision in the near future someone will "hack" or create 3rd party software which will make electronic shifting totally user customizable.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

Pirx said:


> P.S.: I truly have no idea at all why people keep babbling about shifting under load. There is no difference, none at all, in that capability between electrical and mechanical groups. The actual mechanics is exactly the same. If you can do it with electrical, you can do it with mechanical, too.


Aren't electronic systems supposedly designed to purposely overshift in both directions, thus improving shifting performance, especially under load?

Also, what is the comparative strength of the shifting servo vs. the return spring on he regular derailleur?


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

eriku16 said:


> There is no spring to assist to shift up front to the big ring. Only when you shift down. I'm talking about those who say front shifting is better than mechanical.


I know. You didn't read it correctly. My reference below was both directions (spring down force up for FD...obv opposite for RD)

Mechanical will require the spring load of the FD or RD to shift *OR your hand action to provide the force needed.*


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

mimason said:


> Respectfully, disagree in part. Shifting under load with Di2 requires only a push of the button and the FD or RD torques the chain over with precision. Mechanical will require the spring load of the FD or RD to shift OR your hand action to provide the force needed. Not here to argue semantics but if the load is so much you need to soft pedal the gear change because it didnt engage or you have to muscle the shift then there is a benefit to electronic.


You have part of the mechanics wrong here: Rear derailleur shifting occurs on the unloaded side, and is therefore entirely unrelated to load. Front derailleur shifts are on the loaded side, yes, but the contribution of chain tension to the required shifting force is small given the small angles involved. Bottom line, believe it or not, anyone can "muscle" the chain to the big ring under load, with any mechanical group I know of. Of course, shifting to the small ring is done via spring force, so no particular effort involved there. As an aside, shifting to the small ring under full load is ill advised for reasons that have nothing to do with your components. I remember this one guy in front of me almost falling off his bike when he did that...

I guess you could still argue that the electronic FD shifting is completely decoupled from the load, whereas there is a small effect of the load in the mechanical case, so that's a plus for electronic. I guess I would have to concede that point.



deviousalex said:


> The Campy EPS front generates 52Nm of torque when it shifts. So no, the mechanics are not exactly the same.


I have seen this quoted in various places, but I wonder if this is correct. Perhaps the derailleur is _capable_ of developing that kind of torque (even that I have my doubts), but I sure hope it never has to do that. 52Nm is A LOT of torque, as anyone who has ever torqued a bolt at 50+Nm knows. I'm not quite saying that's impossible, but given the short levers involved (roughly of the order of an inch or so), this would create forces in the range of several hundred pounds (400+lbs, to be specific...) on the parts we are talking about here. I have a very, very hard time swallowing that. That kind of force will bend your chainring like it's a piece of rubber, while at the same time ripping the FD off of your frame, stiffener or not.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Pirx said:


> You have part of the mechanics wrong here: Rear derailleur shifting occurs on the unloaded side, and is therefore entirely unrelated to load. Front derailleur shifts are on the loaded side, yes, but the contribution of chain tension to the required shifting force is small given the small angles involved. Bottom line, believe it or not, anyone can "muscle" the chain to the big ring under load, with any mechanical group I know of. Of course, shifting to the small ring is done via spring force, so no particular effort involved there. As an aside, shifting to the small ring under full load is ill advised for reasons that have nothing to do with your components. I remember this one guy in front of me almost falling off his bike when he did that...
> 
> I guess you could still argue that the electronic FD shifting is completely decoupled from the load, whereas there is a small effect of the load in the mechanical case, so that's a plus for electronic. I guess I would have to concede that point.


I understand the mechanics. Again, not wanting to argue semantics I know there is no load down the cog in the rear and I know the other guy posted there is no load down on the FD since it's spring loaded. I thought perhaps the "OR" would work to allow for fewer words to show that load indicated when you manually had to push the gear. It all good.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Pirx said:


> You have part of the mechanics wrong here: Rear derailleur shifting occurs on the unloaded side, and is therefore entirely unrelated to load. Front derailleur shifts are on the loaded side, yes, but the contribution of chain tension to the required shifting force is small given the small angles involved. Bottom line, believe it or not, anyone can "muscle" the chain to the big ring under load, with any mechanical group I know of. Of course, shifting to the small ring is done via spring force, so no particular effort involved there. As an aside, shifting to the small ring under full load is ill advised for reasons that have nothing to do with your components. I remember this one guy in front of me almost falling off his bike when he did that...
> 
> I guess you could still argue that the electronic FD shifting is completely decoupled from the load, whereas there is a small effect of the load in the mechanical case, so that's a plus for electronic. I guess I would have to concede that point.
> 
> ...


The Shimano left crankarm bolts use 12-14 Nm of torque to tighten them down properly. This is akin to taking a short 3" allen key and cranking it down until your 3 fingers and thumb get a red indentation in them. I cannot imagine a front derailleur with a 1" leverage putting 52 Nm again the frame. That's a lot of torque.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

mimason said:


> It all good.


Not to be misunderstood, I was not arguing, just clarifying. Like I said, I think you do have a point. I just believe it's a very minor one, that's all.

On the downshift at the FD, you could argue that there can be an issue doing that under very high load if it turns out the spring force is not sufficient to effect the shift. If you did, I would reply with "you shouldn't be doing that anyway if you know what's good for you..."


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

OldChipper said:


> While I haven't purchased Ui2 or Di2 I did ride Ui2 for a week in Spain last Fall on a rental bike. I was very underwhelmed by it and am happy I never made the switch. For me it was that, basically, the system decided when it was time to actually execute the shift. Like many here I'm sure, from years of riding mechanical, I instinctively know where in the pedal stroke is the right place for me to shift. The electronic system clearly disagrees with me by enough that it's noticeable and I ended up waiting for a shift when I wanted/expected it NOW i.e. when I pushed the button.


OldChipper: sounds like you just needed the shifting reprogrammed. It can actually be programmed among 5 different shifting speeds. You'd have probably liked it more with it on a faster setting.

OP: I have gone back to mechanical. I went back for several reasons: to save a little money on the new bike, I don't really need the benefits electronic offers, and mechanical was a lighter weight. But if it had been the same price as dura-ace 9000, I'd have probably taken the electronic. (Ultegra Di2 equipped bike wasnt same frame level(.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Pirx said:


> On the downshift at the FD, you could argue that there can be an issue doing that under very high load if it turns out the spring force is not sufficient to effect the shift. If you did, I would reply with "you shouldn't be doing that anyway if you know what's good for you..."


Agree. We're having a polite conversation with a laugh in the end. 

That's where soft pedaling will be the right call but it can happen on climbs without the foresight of being in the small ring already. 

Remember way back when on that race someone attacked on the climb and before you knew it you were out of the saddle chasing? Your heart rate redlined and you ran out of gears... Oh **** gotta shift. Now if you had Di2 no problem bro. No need to saddle back just push the button 53>39 ahhh. LOL.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

mimason said:


> Now if you had Di2 no problem bro. No need to saddle back just push the button 53>39 ahhh. LOL.


Hah, but in that case I'd say you'd be better off with my Campy mechanical (*): I can _immediately_ drop down two or three cogs in the rear while shifting to the small ring in the front. This way I'll avoid crashing, or having the guy on my wheel crash into me. I believe all electronic systems will do the multi-shift one cog at a time, so they're much slower. I hasten to admit that I've never tried this with an electronic system, so I may be wrong. If so, I'm sure somebody will let me know quickly... 

(*) I think I read that the new Shimano mechanical groups can now do multiple shifts, too.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

^ there are several options with Di2 that allows for some customization and dropping gears but I haven't spent any time on this at the shop yet. I did adjust speed of shifting to the fastest setting though. I feel that it shifts faster than I can click mech.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

brinox said:


> This statement makes absolutely no sense to me and is false on all accounts. As far as I've read, Shimano Di2 has no knowledge of where you are in the cycle of your pedal stroke. On both of my Di2 equipped bikes, I push any one of the shift buttons and the shift begins there immediately.
> 
> I won't disagree that the derailleurs have some kind of logic built in that looks for and increase in force applied to the cage while the shift ramps circle around to start moving the chain on the front. Outside of that, I really don't see how Di2 could 'know' where a certain part of the chainring or cassette ring is in relation to the derailleur during a commanded shift.
> 
> Shimano, care to enlighten us on this?!





OldChipper said:


> OK, I rode it for a week and hundreds of miles and can't tell when a shift happens or doesn't in relation to when I push a button. I thought I read somewhere that it senses where you are in the pedal stroke and shifts in the "optimal" spot. I can think of several ways they could do that, but maybe they don't.
> 
> There. Are your panties untwisted now and you're feeling better about the extra money you spent? Cool. (I'm still not switching to Di2 though).


Wow so much wrong here. Di2 allows 4 shift speeds. slow, moderate, fast and super fast. It does not change gears at an optimal pedal position. This is where di2 excels over mechanical in the sense that you can change gears on a climb without the big clanking and rough pedal stroke due to torque on the crank.




tlg said:


> What exactly requires more support?


This is trek5200, if you search all his posts regarding di2, he's just waiting for someone to post that their di2 failed and his first response would be "this is why I haven't switched to di2". As you can see, he's still waiting for the post.



Pirx said:


> Hah, but in that case I'd say you'd be better off with my Campy mechanical (*): I can _immediately_ drop down two or three cogs in the rear while shifting to the small ring in the front. This way I'll avoid crashing, or having the guy on my wheel crash into me. I believe all electronic systems will do the multi-shift one cog at a time, so they're much slower. I hasten to admit that I've never tried this with an electronic system, so I may be wrong. If so, I'm sure somebody will let me know quickly...
> 
> (*) I think I read that the new Shimano mechanical groups can now do multiple shifts, too.



Di2 allows the user to make their changes as they see fit.
4 different Speeds of shift.
Holding down button allows - multi shift (sweeping) of gears, or 2-3 cogs per time
Allows you to change what each individual button does. 

The slow shift that everyone is talking about is set as standard out of the box on the older ultegra 6770 unit. The slow shift is great for sprinters, as it allows them to hold down the button as they ramp up their speed and the dérailleur goes through the gears slowly. Setting too fast a shift, you aren't in the right cadence for optimum power. The super fast shift is instant, there is zero delay and I doubt any mechanical dérailleur is that fast at any time.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

r1lee said:


> This is where di2 excels over mechanical in the sense that you can change gears on a climb without the big clanking and rough pedal stroke due to torque on the crank.


What is this "big clanking and rough pedal stroke due to torque on the crank" that you speak of? I have never experienced it, with any mechanical group in the last 20+ years.

Look guys, I am not dissing electrical shifting, I think it's perfectly fine for what it does. What I do object to is this silly notion that, all of a sudden, "you cannot shift under load" with mechanical groups, or there's some "big clanking", or any of that complete nonsense.

Newsflash for you guys: We've been racing mechanical groups for decades, and somehow we've always managed to shift under load. For decades, with every new generation of groupsets, manufacturers have boasted even better shifting under load. Now these electrical shifters come around, and all of a sudden those mechanical groups basically don't work anymore? That's flat-out ludicrous. Sorry, but anyone who comes out with this kind of talk just makes a fool of him- or herself.



r1lee said:


> The super fast shift is instant, there is zero delay and I doubt any mechanical dérailleur is that fast at any time..


Nonsense. Shifting speed of any derailleur system is essentially limited by the kinematics of the cog-chain system. It thus does depend somewhat on chain speed and cog/chainring rpm, but it depends only weakly on the speed of the derailleur motion. At this point I won't even go into the question of the relevance, or lack thereof, of the time it takes the chain to fully settle on the new cog or chainring as long as the shift fully and reliably completes (hint: it's completely irrelevant). Bottom line is that there's no meaningful difference in "shifting performance" between the two systems. Put simply, my mechanical group shifts just as instantly as any electronic group.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

I have not ever ridden a Di2 bike for a long period of time, just test rides and demos, but I have to agree with the sentiment that its a solution to a problem that I don't really have. I've ridden 105 5800, Ultegra 6700 and 6800 and Dura-ace 9000 and all of them, when properly tuned offered great performance.

I have the DA 9000 mechanical on my Venge and IMO, it shifts as fast as any of the Di2 systems I've tried. I understand that the data says I'm wrong. I know that the data says di2 is faster... it shifts in 1/8th of a second (or whatever the number is), but the DA shifts in like 1/4 of a second. That is obviously slower, but the point I'm making is that to me, in actual riding situations, that difference of speed is imperceptible... it might as well be the same. That being said, Ultegra 6800 Di2 costs essentially the same price as DA 9000 mechanical, but the Ultegra Di2 weighs nearly 1.5 pounds more. If you're building a bike and you choose Ultegra Di2 and in the end, it weighs 16.5 pounds... know that for the same price, you could have a DA bike that weighs 15.0 even. I know that everyone loves to say, "ahh well, 1.5 pounds doesn't make a difference." or "you could poop before your ride and lose that weight."... and that is all true, but in the end, I've never met a cyclist that was happy to carry around extra weight they didn't need just for the fun of it, especially when to me, carrying that extra weight doesn't really offer any tangible benefits.

I do agree that the auto-trimming feature is cool....but I don't think its cool enough to be the tipping point. I also know that the battery lasts a long time, but I can name more times than I care to that my friends with Di2 were stuck because of a dead-battery. I like the fact that I can simply grab my bike and ride.

The awesome part is that all of these options exist and we can all build the bikes that make us enjoy riding. I'll always celebrate that.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

TricrossRich said:


> I also know that the battery lasts a long time, but I can name more times than I care to that my friends with Di2 were stuck because of a dead-battery.


I've got to call bullshit on that one. Either your memory is bad or your friends have no clue. I literally charge my battery maybe 3x a year. You can determine if you are getting close to needing to charge it in 2 seconds. Being caught with a dead battery is as dumb as being caught with tire pressure of 40psi... just look down, is your tire pressure incredibly low? Push your shifter, is your red light flashing? Fix it.

As well, I also call bullshit because you are not "stuck" when the battery does die.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

TricrossRich said:


> know that everyone loves to say, "ahh well, 1.5 pounds doesn't make a difference."


In that case you could reply that it makes a hell of a lot more difference than a shift that's 1/8th of a second rather than a quarter second. Because the latter makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

TricrossRich said:


> I also know that the battery lasts a long time, but I can name more times than I care to that my friends with Di2 were stuck because of a dead-battery.


Really? Their batteries skipped right over limp mode and died on them? Uh huh.

A bunch of my friends have di2. I've never once heard of them going into limp mode. And never a dead battery. On the other hand... our group has had to deal with broken shift cables on numerous occasions.


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## brinox (Jul 30, 2010)

TricrossRich said:


> it might as well be the same. That being said, Ultegra 6800 Di2 costs essentially the same price as DA 9000 mechanical, but the Ultegra Di2 weighs nearly 1.5 pounds more. If you're building a bike and you choose Ultegra Di2 and in the end, it weighs 16.5 pounds... know that for the same price, you could have a DA bike that weighs 15.0 even. I know that everyone loves to say, "ahh well, 1.5 pounds doesn't make a difference." or "you could poop before your ride and lose that weight."... and that is all true, but in the end, I've never met a cyclist that was happy to carry around extra weight they didn't need just for the fun of it, especially when to me, carrying that extra weight doesn't really offer any tangible benefits.


1.5 pounds is roughly 684 grams. That's on par with adding an entire Dura-Ace crankset, in addition to the existing crank already on the bike... I think 1.5 pounds is a gross overstatement.

I added up the component weights listed on competitivecyclist.com for the Dura-Ace 9000 group (2048g) and the Ultegra 6870 group (2398g, internal battery). The difference is 350 grams, or 3/4 of a pound. CC's weights will undoubtedly include some measurement error and weight variation from production, but not on the order that you're talking about.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Pirx said:


> Newsflash for you guys: We've been racing mechanical groups for decades, and somehow we've always managed to shift under load. For decades, with every new generation of groupsets, manufacturers have boasted even better shifting under load. Now these electrical shifters come around, and all of a sudden those mechanical groups basically don't work anymore? That's flat-out ludicrous. Sorry, but anyone who comes out with this kind of talk just makes a fool of him- or herself.



I'm sorry but shifting under load, especially the front chainring on a climb is much different then Di2. There is no hesitation and it feels like a normal pedal stroke at any part of the pedal stroke. If your mechanic or yourself can create the same feel, then I need better mechanics and so do all the other riders who have complained about the same situation. 



Pirx said:


> Put simply, my mechanical group shifts just as instantly as any electronic group.


No point in arguing this, if you feel that mechanical is just as fast as electronic, ok. Just like you feel that shifting under load is the exact same to. i guess the placebo effect on electronics has nothing on you.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

r1lee said:


> i guess the placebo effect on electronics has nothing on you.


You hit the mark with that guess, perhaps even more than you intended... :aureola:


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

TricrossRich said:


> I do agree that the auto-trimming feature is cool....but I don't think its cool enough to be the tipping point. I also know that the battery lasts a long time, but I can name more times than I care to that my friends with Di2 were stuck because of a dead-battery. I like the fact that I can simply grab my bike and ride.
> .


just like the others have said. That sounds like a complete BS of a story. The Di2 system shows you 51%-100% green light solid for 2 seconds. 26-50% Green light blinks for 5 seconds. 1-25% red light.

On top of that, your front derailleur will stop working first since it uses more power then the rear. Then you have about 200 rear shifts before the system completely dies. The Internal battery lasts from 600-1500 miles between charges. The External battery I believe lasts even longer of at least 1500 miles between charges. 

I've ridden a complete ride on red battery light. My riding buddy has also ridden where the FD stopped working. But still plenty of juice for the rest of the ride.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Pirx said:


> You hit the mark with that guess, perhaps even more than you intended... :aureola:


lol. There is nothing wrong with Mechanical and like wise for electronics. There are benefits that electronics have over mechanical in many situations. Those benefits are real, are they worth the amount monetarily? that's really up for the rider to consider. 
If it makes their rides more enjoyable, that's the point.

Everything here is really up for debate. Is a $10k bike 10 x better then a 1K bike? Are aero carbon wheels that more beneficial then stock wheels? what, 40sec over a 40km/tt traveling 40km/h. It all comes down to if the user finds their experience better on specific items. 

To say that electronics offer zero, nothing nada over mechanical is just absurd.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> I've got to call bullshit on that one. Either your memory is bad or your friends have no clue. I literally charge my battery maybe 3x a year. You can determine if you are getting close to needing to charge it in 2 seconds. Being caught with a dead battery is as dumb as being caught with tire pressure of 40psi... just look down, is your tire pressure incredibly low? Push your shifter, is your red light flashing? Fix it.
> 
> As well, I also call bullshit because you are not "stuck" when the battery does die.





tlg said:


> Really? Their batteries skipped right over limp mode and died on them? Uh huh.
> 
> A bunch of my friends have di2. I've never once heard of them going into limp mode. And never a dead battery. On the other hand... our group has had to deal with broken shift cables on numerous occasions.





r1lee said:


> just like the others have said. That sounds like a complete BS of a story. The Di2 system shows you 51%-100% green light solid for 2 seconds. 26-50% Green light blinks for 5 seconds. 1-25% red light.
> 
> On top of that, your front derailleur will stop working first since it uses more power then the rear. Then you have about 200 rear shifts before the system completely dies. The Internal battery lasts from 600-1500 miles between charges. The External battery I believe lasts even longer of at least 1500 miles between charges.
> 
> I've ridden a complete ride on red battery light. My riding buddy has also ridden where the FD stopped working. But still plenty of juice for the rest of the ride.


I suppose I should have been more technical.. I didn't realize my reply would be picked apart by the nit-pick squad. LOL. I ride regularly with about 18 guys... of those, 4 of them have Di2, 3 are on Ultegra Di2 and one DA Di2. Last year, 1 guys battery gave him issues on 2 separate rides (once in the beginning of the year and once toward the end of the season. the other 2 guys each had a problem 1 time). Its true, that is only 4 instances... but of the 14 other guys in our group that are on mechanical, none of them had issues at all.

You guys are correct, in all of the Instances, the batteries didn't completely die... the bikes went into limp mode, meaning they lost the FD... they could still ride, but since we were on rather hilly rides, it effected them all adversely.




Pirx said:


> In that case you could reply that it makes a hell of a lot more difference than a shift that's 1/8th of a second rather than a quarter second. Because the latter makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.


exactly.




brinox said:


> 1.5 pounds is roughly 684 grams. That's on par with adding an entire Dura-Ace crankset, in addition to the existing crank already on the bike... I think 1.5 pounds is a gross overstatement.
> 
> I added up the component weights listed on competitivecyclist.com for the Dura-Ace 9000 group (2048g) and the Ultegra 6870 group (2398g, internal battery). The difference is 350 grams, or 3/4 of a pound. CC's weights will undoubtedly include some measurement error and weight variation from production, but not on the order that you're talking about.


The weights I've seen for the different groups are as follows... they reflect complete systems, brakes, cables, wires, batteries, etc.

Ultegra 6800 Di2 - 2,680g
Ultegra 6800 mech. - 2,294g
Dura-ace 9000 Di2 - 2,047g
Dura-ace 9000 mech - 1,998g

2680-1998 = 682 grams. 682 grams = 1.50355 pounds. I have not personally weighed all of the components myself so yo could obviously argue the accuracy of those weights and i'm sure someone will. Just going by what I found in my research on the matter.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Ha ha, 4x is more than you care to name. Got it. Nitpicking done. btw, I've ridden >22,000kms on my Di2 and have never had the issues you refer to. As have thousands of happy owners. As I said earlier, it literally takes 2 seconds to see if your battery is getting low. Continue to ignore that.

As for the weights, more nitpicking necessary. A more rational way of measuring the weight cost of Di2 would be 2,680-2,294 = 386g = 0.85 lbs or 2,047-1,998=49g = 0.11 lbs.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

TricrossRich said:


> but of the 14 other guys in our group that are on mechanical, none of them had issues at all.


Actually... now that I think about it more, that's not 100% accurate. One of the guys in our group seems to always be having shifting issues with his mechanical SRAM Rival set up. I don't know if that was indicative of an issue with the system, or perhaps his LBS ability to properly set it up, or just his own problems with using it... it seemed he was always going up when he wanted to go down and vice versa... just couldn't get the hang of double tap. This winter he converted to Ultegra 6800 mechanical.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Ha ha, 4x is more than you care to name. Got it. Nitpicking done. btw, I've ridden >22,000kms on my Di2 and have never had the issues you refer to. As have thousands of happy owners. As I said earlier, it literally takes 2 seconds to see if your battery is getting low. Continue to ignore that...


But there could be some who have bad batteries, which either don't take, or fail hold a charge, and were like that coming from the factory...or shortly after.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> Ha ha, 4x is more than you care to name. Got it. Nitpicking done. btw, I've ridden >22,000kms on my Di2 and have never had the issues you refer to. As have thousands of happy owners. As I said earlier, it literally takes 2 seconds to see if your battery is getting low. Continue to ignore that.


That's fine. It is entirely possible that my friends are just forgetful and forget to charge/check batteries when they should. I can't argue that. I'm just recounting my experiences.



DaveWC said:


> As for the weights, more nitpicking necessary. A more rational way of measuring the weight cost of Di2 would be 2,680-2,294 = 386g = 0.85 lbs or 2,047-1,998=49g = 0.11 lbs.


You're comparing Ultegra to Ultegra Di2 and DA mechanical to DA Di2 and you're right. I compared Ultra Di2 to DA mechanical only because the price points of those two systems seem to be pretty close.... so when myself or my friends were building bikes it often came down to that price point and that was the debate.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

TricrossRich said:


> I suppose I should have been more technical.. I didn't realize my reply would be picked apart by the nit-pick squad.


Do you understand what "nit pick" means? 
nit-pik
To be concerned with insignificant details.

Your "details" weren't insignificant. You flat out misrepresented them to fit you bias. 



> I also know that the battery lasts a long time, but I can name more times than I care to that my friends with Di2 were stuck because of a dead-battery.


Now you admit there were actually no dead batteries. No one was stuck. And 4 instances is "more than you care to count". 

You didn't need to be more technical... just honest.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

TricrossRich said:


> That's fine. It is entirely possible that my friends are just forgetful and forget to charge/check batteries when they should. I can't argue that. I'm just recounting my experiences.


I get it. But it's your conclusion from those experiences that I'm questioning. You have to charge your Garmin frequently, does that render it not worth having? And by frequently I mean at least an order of 10x more often than Di2 batteries. The same goes for a GoPro. Using your need to just get on a bike & go and not have to concern yourself with charging a Di2 battery every 4 months you might also set aside any desire to ever own a Powertap based wheel as the battery goes in that thing too and then you're equally "stuck". Might consider tossing your cellphone away too... too difficult to keep that thing charged.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
So what's your point? di2 requires more support?




Trek_5200 said:


> Potentially, yes


Saw interview of a bunch of pro team mechanics on Di2 on GCN recently. They say the beauty of the Di2 is it requires no maintenance compared to cable shifters. Set it for a season and forget it. No cable stretch is why, i am guessing. But then they do have to ensure the charging gets done, so that is non-zero maintenance at least.

Have no idea if they just say it to appease Shimano though. Even some pros prefer mechanical

I worked with the Di2 on wife's bike, but have not ridden with it yet. She likes it, but has not said it makes a huge difference


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

r1lee said:


> If your mechanic or yourself can create the same feel, then I need better mechanics and so do all the other riders who have complained about the same situation.


Well, perhaps you should. Here's a selection:


Swipe the left shifter, in either direction, at any time, *under any load*, and the shift is perfect, instantaneous, and reliable. It’s uncanny.

True to Shimano’s claims, Dura-Ace 9000 shifts flawlessly front and rear, *even under huge load* like during sprints and climbs.

The largest improvement in shifting, however, is from small chainring to large *under load*. We tried to drop a chain or produce a clunky shift; no luck. Front shifting, even in full crossover gears, was laser-guided accurate.

The list goes on and on. This is just Shimano, but you can find similar stuff for all the brands. Perhaps everyone has been lying about their mechanical groupsets?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Saw interview of a bunch of pro team mechanics on Di2 on GCN recently. They say the beauty of the Di2 is it requires no maintenance compared to cable shifters. Set it for a season and forget it. No cable stretch is why, i am guessing. But then they do have to ensure the charging gets done, so that is non-zero maintenance at least.


Yup, still waiting to hear from Trek_5200 on all this "extra" maintenance. 

This is from 5yrs ago. Team Garmin rode the entire Giro and only re-charged once. 

Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 electronic transmission review - BikeRadar
Garmin team mechanics have admitted to only charging their riders' Di2 batteries once during the entire 2,448km-long (1,521 miles) 2009 Giro d'Italia. Not exactly a short-timer.


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## eriku16 (Jul 27, 2011)

r1lee said:


> I'm sorry but shifting under load, especially the front chainring on a climb is much different then Di2. There is no hesitation and it feels like a normal pedal stroke at any part of the pedal stroke. If your mechanic or yourself can create the same feel, then I need better mechanics and so do all the other riders who have complained about the same situation.


Shifting to the big ring under load is NOT a good thing! Electronic or mechanical, with today's thinner chain rings and chains, the risk of chipping a tooth, bending a ring and snapping a chain is greater. I've seen it happen and shows a clueless, newbie shifting technique. Di2 can bend rings. There's a lot of guys running custom crank setups with Di2. The electronic guys seems to promote that shifting under load is an advantage. Just like big-big, small-small. Instead, they are just endorsing poor newbie technique.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> I get it. But it's your conclusion from those experiences that I'm questioning. You have to charge your Garmin frequently, does that render it not worth having? And by frequently I mean at least an order of 10x more often than Di2 batteries. The same goes for a GoPro. Using your need to just get on a bike & go and not have to concern yourself with charging a Di2 battery every 4 months you might also set aside any desire to ever own a Powertap based wheel as the battery goes in that thing too and then you're equally "stuck". Might consider tossing your cellphone away too... too difficult to keep that thing charged.


That's entirely accurate... Your analogy falls a little bit flat in the fact though, that none of the items you listed, the garmin, the go pro, the power tap need to be charged to die the bike... you can still ride the bike with all of them dead.

For me personally, the decision came down to the weight actually. I don't think I would actually have a problem with keeping it charged. I basically said... ok.. I have x dollars, I can build it with this group and it will weight this.. or I can build it with this group and it will weight this. I chose the lighter one.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

TricrossRich said:


> That's entirely accurate... Your analogy falls a little bit flat in the fact though, that none of the items you listed, the garmin, the go pro, the power tap need to be charged to die the bike... you can still ride the bike with all of them dead.


Wow... you missed that analogy.
If you don't charge your di2, your bike won't work (Optimally. You'll be in limp mode or a single speed. You CAN still ride it.)
If you don't charge your garmin, your garmin won't work.
If you don't charge your gopro, your gopro won't work.
If you don't charge your phone, your phone won't work.

The point being, most people don't seem to have a problem charging things to keep them operational. 
Funny... you don't hear people saying "No cell phone for me. Charging the battery is a PITA. I'm sticking with a rotary phone. I don't want to be "stuck" without being able to call someone.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

TricrossRich said:


> That's entirely accurate... Your analogy falls a little bit flat in the fact though, that none of the items you listed, the garmin, the go pro, the power tap need to be charged to die the bike... you can still ride the bike with all of them dead.


They all add weight & cost money. And as you corrected from your earlier post, none of your friends had their bikes "die". Also none of those things would meet your criteria of being able to simply grab your bike and ride. They all require an infinitesimally small amount of planning to ensure that they are adequately charged.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

DaveWC said:


> They all require an infinitesimally small amount of planning to ensure that they are adequately charged.



Subjective, at a minimum. Especially for the numb skulls like me. .

In one way; yet another device to maintain the charge of diametrically opposed as far as seeing the forest for the trees from this keyboard.... ****, I have to plug in...


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

robt57 said:


> In one way; yet another device to maintain the charge of diametrically opposed as far as seeing the forest for the trees from this keyboard.... ****, I have to plug in...


I think too many people get stuck on the fact that it needs to be plugged in. Consider that it's another thing that needs to be maintained, much like many other aspects of your bike. I fill my tires before every ride and I guess if I had to plug a pump in to charge them this would be a big deal but since I pump by hand it's a no-brainer. Considering that charging the Di2 battery has been the only maintenance that I've done in the 2 years I've owned this drivetrain it seems like it's very little. I'm also on the list of people waiting for Trek_5200 to detail the increased amount of support that Di2 requires.

btw, I've got no problem with people not choosing Di2 but to say that it dies frequently & leaves you stuck is ridiculous.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

TricrossRich said:


> That's entirely accurate... Your analogy falls a little bit flat in the fact though, that none of the items you listed, the garmin, the go pro, the power tap need to be charged to die the bike... you can still ride the bike with all of them dead.


You can also ride the bike with the battery dead. There is nothing that stops the pedals from turning.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

DaveWC said:


> I think too many people get stuck on the fact that it needs to be plugged in. Consider that it's another thing that needs to be maintained, much like many other aspects of your bike. I fill my tires before every ride and I guess if I had to plug a pump in to charge them this would be a big deal but since I pump by hand it's a no-brainer.


But in order to fill your tires you have to connect a hose to (each) of them. So you're "plugging" your hose in... twice. Most people do this every ride or two. 
This apparently is no big deal. But plugging in a battery every 1,000mi is ludicrous.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

DaveWC said:


> I think too many people get stuck on the fact that it needs to be plugged in. Consider that it's another thing that needs to be maintained, much like many other aspects of your bike. I fill my tires before every ride and I guess if I had to plug a pump in to charge them this would be a big deal but since I pump by hand it's a no-brainer. Considering that charging the Di2 battery has been the only maintenance that I've done in the 2 years I've owned this drivetrain it seems like it's very little. I'm also on the list of people waiting for Trek_5200 to detail the increased amount of support that Di2 requires.
> 
> btw, I've got no problem with people not choosing Di2 but to say that it dies frequently & leaves you stuck is ridiculous.


All good points. 

As far as not choosing, I will get there at some point. I know it...


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## brinox (Jul 30, 2010)

TricrossRich said:


> The weights I've seen for the different groups are as follows... they reflect complete systems, brakes, cables, wires, batteries, etc.
> 
> Ultegra 6800 Di2 - 2,680g
> Ultegra 6800 mech. - 2,294g
> ...


First problem, you probably pulled all of these weights from different websites or sources, and two, didn't list any of those sites or sources.

Does each weight include the bottom bracket? Are they all using the same size cassette and/or crankset? What about cables and housings on the mechanical side?

I'll bet you could come up with 682 grams if you paired the heaviest components of the 6870 series and measured against the lightest Dura-Ace stuff...

These two sources are so far the most comprehensive of all the higher end Shimano offerings:

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/site...icle/Ultegra 6870 Weight July 1 for Media.pdf

Component Weights

Given those figures above, I'm finding that adding the listed weight of the cableset from the PDF to the Dura-Ace groupset weight on totalcycling comes out to be 2092g. The referenced internal battery weight of Ui2 6870 from the PDF is 2359, including wiring and junction boxes. That makes a difference of 267 grams, or 3/5 of a pound. Disclaimers include not knowing what the Dura-Ace crankset and cassette sizes are.

For those who find this post wanting to know the weight difference between mechanical Dura-Ace and electronic Ultegra, hopefully these two items will assist with that.

I'm done trying to debate the weight weenie aspect of this discussion since I'm the only one backing my math and claims up with actual material.


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## Bevo (Dec 26, 2012)

I have made the switch back to mechanical due to a new frame not able to take the electronic cable heads. I went with 9000 and I do think they are different but it's a choice you can't lose on.

Electronic is set and forget, once you have it tuned just right it very rarely moves out of alignment. 9000 mechanical works as advertised but you still have to do regular tuning which is a click on the cable stop from time to time. As for reliability it's not an issue, if your careless or unlucky and cut a cable it's not the end of the world, you can still ride home. If your doing huge rides and carry an extra chain link then why not a cable?

The difference I find is accuracy especially when tired, sometime a downshift/bigger cog does not catch because your too tired to sweep to the click. Front shifting is also easier one poke to get in the big ring, mechanical takes a sweep which I will hold a second till in the ring. Shifting down to smaller rings is instant on both but I found DI to be faster.

The last and probably biggest difference is in using them was in how often I changed gears. In the drops it's just tap tap tap up and down, with mechanical I find I wait a bit longer to shift and then the sweep of the brake lever with one finger can get tricky if wet and your finger slips off.

Saying all of that would I go back, hell yeah, is mechanical worth it, same hell yeah which is really the answer. They both work amazing, the differences are minor and some of the issues above are totally forgotten after a ride or two.

One thing I really don't like about mechanical specifically Shimano is the moving brake levers, DI and Campy are solid, I changed my 9000 for Record and could not be happier.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Bevo said:


> One thing I really don't like about mechanical specifically Shimano is the moving brake levers, DI and Campy are solid, I changed my 9000 for Record and could not be happier.


I remember when bar shifters first came out like 24 years ago, this was seen as an advantage. If you crash the levers don't bend of break, they just move in freely on the shifter pivots. For me, I use Sram on my road bike, shimano on my winter bike. Much prefer the extra leverage of the shimano's whole moving lever over the doubletap.


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