# Will whey protein help my riding?



## LowriderS10 (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi guys...

I used to eat (well, drink...I mix it in milk) a lot of whey protein when I used to work out a lot...then I kind of stopped. 

Then, last night a friend gave me a big tub of the stuff because he wasn't using it, and I thought I'd take it...these days I only work out on rainy days (I hate being inside haha), and I ride about 40 km a day about 5 days a week. 

I want to slim down a little more (I'm 5'10 and went from 200 to 160-162 lbs in the past few months) and tone up a little more. 

Are there any benefits of whey to riding? If it matters, I'm also a vegetarian in South Korea, so protein is not as easy to come by for me as it was at home (though I try my best).


----------



## Rugergundog (Apr 2, 2011)

Protein is important following a hard ride. It helps support muscle recovery and growth of muscle you damaged by a hard workout.


----------



## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

Not unless you diet is very low in protein intake. If it is, yes. If not, no.


----------



## LowriderS10 (Aug 22, 2011)

brianmcg: I think it's a little low in protein these days...

Rugergundog: yeah, that's what I used to do when I used to work out...hit the gym hard, then get home to a huge glass of milk and whey...I think I'll do that as a post-ride thing now...


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Steak tastes better.


----------



## Ruonpoint (Aug 22, 2011)

Try it for a few weeks and see how your body responds.


----------



## 41ants (Jul 24, 2007)

Take a look at the label because some whey proteins can be high in carbs and sugar. I typically go for those that are under 4g of net carbs and under 2g of sugar. I feel that it helps me recover and great for when you are down on your daily protein intake requirements. Everyone is different as is their goals.... I try to hit 200 to 300 grams a day in protein and getting it all from food can be a difficult.


----------



## dharrison (Oct 27, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Steak tastes better.


But you can't _drink _steak...


----------



## LowriderS10 (Aug 22, 2011)

haha like I said, I'm a veggie, so a steak is not really an option  

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it...will definitely start taking it and see how I respond in a bit...I was doing really well, riding a lot, but yesterday and today (after 2 hrs of hardcore badminton against my Korean coworkers) my legs have been hurting like crazy...


----------



## PG_Gary (Jan 21, 2008)

spade2you said:


> Steak tastes better.


Not to a vegetarian.


----------



## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

a small amount of protein before a ride is a good idea too. Your body will use some protein as a fuel source, so if you don't have some protein before you ride, your body will get it from muscle.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

dharrison said:


> But you can't _drink _steak...


My FIL makes a prime rib that you could practically drink.


----------



## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

I recommend a lot of egg white for the protein in-take need instead of any whey protein mixes that are avilable. 
I believe that the egg has very high absorption rate as well.


----------



## vontress (Jul 19, 2009)

Seems like you might cut the milk if trying to slim down. Protien with water isn't as fun to drink, but way lower calories. You shouldn't need a lot of calories for a ride of that distance.


----------



## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

spade2you said:


> My FIL makes a prime rib that you could practically drink.


I hate my FIL, but already like your's. anywho, check your protein needs for athletic output, and figure the best way to get what you need. Look at the cholesterol content of protein supplements closely. some are terrible.


----------



## RUFUSPHOTO (Oct 14, 2010)

LowriderS10 said:


> haha like I said, I'm a veggie, so a steak is not really an option
> 
> Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it...will definitely start taking it and see how I respond in a bit...I was doing really well, riding a lot, but yesterday and today (after 2 hrs of hardcore badminton against my Korean coworkers) my legs have been hurting like crazy...


I had horrible cramps while riding as well as very gassy while taking protein powder. Most mass produced powders also have elements of metals and horrible fillers. I am also a vegetarian but do eat fish on occasion. 

Legumes, seitan, fish and a handful of nuts(HAHA) are a few things that will get your daily intake of protein. 

An average male does not need a lot of protein per day. Multiple your weight by .05-.06 (active adult). At 160lbs your daily requirement is roughly 96 grams of protein. Seitan is 25-40 grame per 6oz serving, sometimes more if homemade, beans and legumes are 7 grams per 1/2 cup, 1 egg is around 8 grams and bread is 3 grams or so. 

A healthy breakfast and a dinner with fish or seitan with vegetables will get your daily requirements easily. 

I have been racing competitively for a few years now and I do not supplement my diet with extra protein. It is not needed, your body will reject the rest, and if too much is taken over a period of time you could have some adverse health effects.

As a vegetarian how is your diet? What is a normal day for you menu-wise?
Just some though. A good diet is better than any mass produced supplement.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

kmunny19 said:


> I hate my FIL, but already like your's. anywho, check your protein needs for athletic output, and figure the best way to get what you need. Look at the cholesterol content of protein supplements closely. some are terrible.


My FIL is a nice guy. Not a chef by trade, but it's hard to top his cooking. My only gripe was him allowing a cleaning lady, which didn't help my wife develop any domestic skills, but that's another story for another day.

Protein supplementation is a place where athletes spend a lot of effort and $$$. I stopped using protein supplements a few years back and didn't notice any decline in performance. As previous posts indicate, I eat meat. I don't think it's an unhealthy amount, but I live in Nebraska.


----------



## LiamjLynch (Jun 21, 2011)

Whey protein mixed with milk slows the absorption rate(mix with milk and use before bed for a slow release) it should be mixed with water.I use it every day to help with recovery.


----------



## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

MarshallH1987 said:


> a small amount of protein before a ride is a good idea too. Your body will use some protein as a fuel source, so if you don't have some protein before you ride, your body will get it from muscle.


That is acutally a fallacy. Unless you have data to the contrary, the data I have seen shows that pre-exericse protein does not reduce the amount of protein breakdown experienced during a workout. 

That being said, protein is not used to a large extent during endurance exercsie unless it is of very long duration (4-6+ hours) and/or in the the nutritionally depeleted state (such as the later stages of a very long ride/run/etc. in the absence of carbohydrate intake). 

The carbohdrate intake is what will improve and/or maintain performance during the workout. There is one study (maybe more) which reported that pre-exercise protein may improve post resistance training MPS. The caveat is that it was one study, it was RT, and it has not yet been supported.

The bottom line. Carb intake prior to exercise (2 hours) is more important than protein intake. Post exercise both protein and carb intake become important dependant on your goals. And never forget the overall qualtity of your diet.

Also, look back at some of the old threads in this forum regarding timing of post exercsie nutrition and the difference between whey, animal, and soy proteins on MPS.


----------



## jwcurry83 (Jun 21, 2010)

LiamjLynch said:


> Whey protein mixed with milk slows the absorption rate(mix with milk and use before bed for a slow release) it should be mixed with water.I use it every day to help with recovery.


Even better is getting a whey & casein protein blend... and then mixing that with milk. The added casein proteins take longer to digest and will thus be beneficial for long term recovery (ie: overnight). Since I started using the blend (30 minutes post-workout) I have found that my legs feel much better the next day following a hard and/or long ride. I still make sure that the majority of my protein intake comes from milk, eggs and lean meats... but supplementing the blend has definitely had its benefits for me.


----------



## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

sdeeer said:


> That is acutally a fallacy. Unless you have data to the contrary, the data I have seen shows that pre-exericse protein does not reduce the amount of protein breakdown experienced during a workout.


So you're saying that my sports nutrition teacher/textbook and some other studies I've read are all wrong? I will agree that consuming protein beforehand doesn't stop your body from breaking down protein as you exercise, but it will discourage it from breaking down muscle for fuel.



sdeeer said:


> That being said, protein is not used to a large extent during endurance exercsie unless it is of very long duration (4-6+ hours) and/or in the the nutritionally depeleted state (such as the later stages of a very long ride/run/etc. in the absence of carbohydrate intake).


Your body can get up to roughly 10% of it's energy during long endurance exercise from protein, meaning you do a 4-6+ hour ride where you are burning several thousand calories that could mean that your body burns 100+ grams of protein during a ride (this is assuming the high end with 4calories per gram of protein, 4000C*10%=400calories from protein/4calories per gram=100 grams of protein). Now this all depends on other fuel sources as you said, the more carbohydrates and fat to an extent will determine how much protein is used. I think the main benefit from consuming protein before riding would be that what your body breaks down isn't burned, this preventing a catabolic state, so that your body has the amino acids present to rebuild as you ride(if possible) or to start recovering as soon as you stop and before you even eat.

Now, I wouldn't drink a whole protein shake ahead of time, but exactly how much I am not sure on. Usually I just take a swig out of my post ride drink(chocolate milk with BCAAs added) and call it good.


----------



## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

MarshallH1987 said:


> So you're saying that my sports nutrition teacher/textbook and some other studies I've read are all wrong? I will agree that consuming protein beforehand doesn't stop your body from breaking down protein as you exercise, but it* will discourage it from breaking down muscle for fuel*.
> 
> 
> I think the main benefit from consuming protein before riding would be that what your body breaks down isn't burned, this preventing a catabolic state, so that your body has the amino acids present to rebuild as you ride(*if possible, NOPE AMPK*) or to start recovering as soon as you stop and before you even eat.
> .


I am not necessarily saying they are wrong. Please post the links/title and authors to the studies which support your point. 

The literature from MJ Rennie, KD Tipton, and RR Wolfe states otherwise. It is the insulin response which reduces MPB (muscle protein breakdown). Protein intake is in control of MPS while insulin is mainly in control of breakdown. The substrate availability (carbs and fat) and hormones (insulin, glucagon, epi, etc.) control HGO, lypolysis, and MBP. 

Ingesting protein before a workout will increase MPS, which will be essentially stopped during exercsie due to the rise in AMPK activity inhibiting downstream mTOR. Insulin relaease is stoped during exercsie, so MPB will increase as I stated and depends on the situation I just described. The extenf of the 'catabolic state' is determined by substrate intake, intensity, and duration. I am trying to make the point that total energy intake, with emphasis on carbs, is more important than protein intake and that some of your reasoning is incorrect. This concept was recently reviewed by Tipton and Jeukendrup.


Again, I have not seen data that shows that pre-exercsie protein reduces MPB. If it does, please post the data. I am open to examining it. 

The underlined in the last sentance is a moot point if the ride is long enough for this to occur. The preingested protein will be long gone (by and large) if this is a really long event. Thus it is not still available for post-exericse MPS and recovery.


----------



## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

*Wait...what?!*



sdeeer said:


> . It is the insulin response which reduces MPB (muscle protein breakdown). Protein intake is in control of MPS while insulin is mainly in control of breakdown. The substrate availability (carbs and fat) and hormones (insulin, glucagon, epi, etc.) control HGO, lypolysis, and MBP.
> 
> Ingesting protein before a workout will increase MPS, which will be essentially stopped during exercsie due to the rise in AMPK activity inhibiting downstream mTOR. Insulin relaease is stoped during exercsie, so MPB will increase as I stated and depends on the situation I just described.
> MPS and recovery.


I think you need to rework the above. It appears you are interpreting some professional lit without overall understanding. The hormone known as insulin is responsible for the integration of fuel metabolism at rest AND during exercise. Insulin allows glucose to be readily used by the working tissues of the body. The action of cortisol and glucagon are dependent on how much glucose is in the blood and energy in the body and work in concert with insulin in a complex balance. Now, you throwing in MPS as you have above only confuses me with an otherwise staightforward process for muscle regeneration facilitated by an enzyme glycogen synthase and a transporter know as GLUT4, both of which are response to insulin and are elevated post exercise.


----------



## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

DonDenver said:


> I think you need to rework the above. It appears you are interpreting some professional lit without overall understanding. The hormone known as insulin is responsible for the integration of fuel metabolism at rest AND during exercise. Insulin allows glucose to be readily used by the working tissues of the body. The action of cortisol and glucagon are dependent on how much glucose is in the blood and energy in the body and work in concert with insulin in a complex balance. Now, you throwing in MPS as you have above only confuses me with an otherwise staightforward process for muscle regeneration facilitated by an enzyme glycogen synthase and a transporter know as GLUT4, both of which are response to insulin and are elevated post exercise.


WAIT WHAT is right! You are confused.

Lets see what YOU understand. What happens to insulin relaease during moderate to high intensity exercise? I'll tell you. Epi (primarily) inhibits the further release of insulin into the blood during exercise. So after about 20 - 30 miuntes (depending on the insulin level prior to the exercise bout) insulin levels return to baseline.

Glucose uptake IS regulated by insulin at rest AND during exercise, BUT, insulin release is suppressed during exercise. Thus, glucose uptake IS done by GLUT4 in the muscle, but recent evidence suggests that there are 2 pools (if you will). One which responds to insulin and one that is exercise intensity driven. This work was done by Laurie Goodyear at UIC (i think) and Sakamoto. So GLUT4 is responsible for glucose uptake during exercsie, but is not dependant on elevated insulin.

Glycogen snythase does not directly impact MUSCLE protein synthesis (MPS). It does have a role in post exercise glycogen re-synthesis however. 

Why do you think GLUT4 and glycogen synthase play a role in muscle PROTEIN synthesis when they are used in GLUCOSE entry into the cell and glycogen re-synthesis? 

I emphasized certain thing to make a point. I hope I was not too harsh. Sometimes conversational gestures and emphasis are lost in the internet. And I am trying to post fast.......


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Getting the numbers right*



RUFUSPHOTO said:


> An average male does not need a lot of protein per day. Multiple your weight by .05-.06 (active adult). At 160lbs your daily requirement is roughly 96 grams of protein.


As your example demonstrates, the correct multipliers are 0.5 to 0.6. Multiplying your weight in lbs. by 0.05 gives 8 gm for a 160 lb (73 kg) rider.


----------



## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

Just FYI.

You all may find these two recent pubs of intrest:

Effect of Increased Dietary Protein on Tolerance to Intensif... : Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise

Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract


----------



## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

sdeeer said:


> WAIT WHAT is right! You are confused.
> 
> Lets see what YOU understand.
> 
> ...


Response:

I understand you are not formally schooled in any of this otherwise it would not have taken on such unnecessary terminology. All of this could have been plainly spoke.

I did.not say anything about protein syn rather only muscle reconstruction...which is not exclusive to a protein process...your reaction clues me to your lack of depth here.

Posting fast is no excuse for throwing out stitches of complex systems as though complete further exampling additional studies.

And yes, while I'm sure you're well intended, you've got me confused and spending to much back and forth time here...bye :thumbsup:


----------



## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

DonDenver said:


> Response:
> 
> I understand you are not formally schooled in any of this otherwise it would not have taken on such unnecessary terminology. All of this could have been plainly spoke.
> 
> ...


Unnecessary terminology? The OP was relating to whey protein. Then we went OT on the role of pre-exercsie protein intake and its role in muscle protein breakdown. Then you come into the discussion talking about glycogen synthesis.

Do you know what muscle is "made" out of? It is made out of protein. The enzymes are proteins. The contractile units are protein. The actin, myosin, troponin, tropomyosin, nebulin, etc. All protein. They are the parts of mucsle that get broken down during exercise both via use and catabolic state of the organism. 

I am speaking plain english. Any one of my studets in ex phys understands exactly what I am telling them. 

And I am formally "schooled" in this topic. It is you who appears to be uneducated on the mater. 



DonDenver said:


> Response:
> 
> I did.not say anything about protein syn rather only muscle reconstruction...which is not exclusive to a protein process...your reaction clues me to your lack of depth here.
> 
> :


What are you talking about muscle reconstruction? If you are talking about glucose uptake, you are refering to the post exercise period during which glucose is used to re-synthesize muscle glycogen and also for energy metabolism. Energy metabolism post exercsie is used to regenerate ATP, PCr, and for muscle repair. Not to mention basic cellular functions. Glucose in the mucsle cell is NOT used for muscle repair as a building block.

Proteins are "building blocks" as is taught in nutrition 101 at any university.

Any other rebutals. I hope this helped. And if you have any questions, I can truely help you get on the right track.

And for others, I hope you enjoy the info and the Show....


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

In case ya haven't figured, sdeer kinda knows nutrition and it's his bread and butter, so to speak. I'll stick to pharmacy.


----------



## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

spade2you said:


> In case ya haven't figured, sdeer kinda knows nutrition and it's his bread and butter, so to speak. I'll stick to pharmacy.


No, actually he does not know nutrition which is now more clear to me reading his explosion that has articulated nothing of benefit. But knowing that he lurks here I'll watch to throw out yellow flags now and thin


----------



## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

DonDenver said:


> No, actually he does not know nutrition which is now more clear to me reading his explosion that has articulated nothing of benefit. But knowing that he lurks here I'll watch to throw out yellow flags now and thin


Don. I all serious, I can not tell if you have a metal disorder, are learning disabled, or are Durielk under a different screen name.

You have used the classic, I have no rebuttal, so I will try defame your character.

Any other members want to jump in and alert Don to his misinterpretation of metabolism and my expertise. 

I would like to help you understand. Please reread my previous post :

"What are you talking about muscle reconstruction? If you are talking about glucose uptake, you are refering to the post exercise period during which glucose is used to re-synthesize muscle glycogen and also for energy metabolism. Energy metabolism post exercsie is used to regenerate ATP, PCr, and for muscle repair. Not to mention basic cellular functions. Glucose in the mucsle cell is NOT used for muscle repair as a building block.

Proteins are "building blocks" as is taught in nutrition 101 at any university.

Any other rebutals. I hope this helped. And if you have any questions, I can truely help you get on the right track."


----------



## LowriderS10 (Aug 22, 2011)

Wow there's a lot of info here...thanks guys...I'll try to drink it with water, then (haha I mixed it with yogurt today, guess that wasn't smart)...and I'll also try to do it after a ride and not before...also, I'm trying to eat a handful of peanuts every day to help with protein


----------



## AndreRoad (Sep 16, 2011)

Protein shakes should only be used post ride as a quick absorbing protein source. Other than that you should be getting your main protein source from real foods


----------



## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

yes, I use whey protein, it works for me, maintaining my muscle mass much easier. good for recovery shakes, or/and as part of your breakfast, pre-ride meal etc.


----------

