# DIY altitude training idea...



## Boise100 (Sep 9, 2003)

One of my friends just bought an altitude tent to sleep in with the wife. I was curious about just what the benifits of high altitude training. Here's what I've found...

-Increased O2 uptake and delivery (VO2max)
-Enhanced power output for increased speed, strength and endurance
-Increased efficiency of mitochondria (the power plant of the cell)
-Diminished risk for development of mountain sickness (AMS, HAPE and HACE)
-Reduced recovery time after both aerobic and anaerobic efforts
-Reduced blood lactate at a given workload and improved buffering ability for less burn
-Decreased overall stress and fatigue

So there ya go, it looks great. Why doesn't every cyclist or runner have it? Because a cheap system costs $4,000!!! Also, the soda lime cannisters need replacing every 10 days or so at a cost of $50 each. Seem like an awful lot of money. Here are some links...
http://www.go2altitude.com/
http://www.altipower.com/ (only $1,200)

So having an engineering background, I thought there might be a better way to go about it. The devices that I've seen are not hypobaric, they just change the oxygen : nitrogen ratio. Instead of 21% oxygen, your getting say 11% to simulate 12000-15000 feet of altitude.

So to my question: Why couldn't this same thing be accomplished with a subba regulator? You could calibrate the regulator to give exacty the same air that comes out of these $4,000 machines and never have to buy cannisters of soda lime. Just simply refill a nitrogen bottle with (cheap) nitrogen.

Where am I going wrong???


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

I just hold my breath until my face turns blue, rinse, repeat.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Do the math?*



Boise100 said:


> Why couldn't this same thing be accomplished with a subba regulator? You could calibrate the regulator to give exacty the same air that comes out of these $4,000 machines and never have to buy cannisters of soda lime. Just simply refill a nitrogen bottle with (cheap) nitrogen.


Have you calculated how much N2 you would have to pump per night? You need a constant supply of fresh air, and then dilute that air with N2. I'm pretty sure you'd be spending a lot on N2. Plus, the asphyxiation risk is really high if by chance the mixture gets too rich in N2. If you have an "engineering background," whatever that means, then presumably you could do the calculations quite easily.


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## Boise100 (Sep 9, 2003)

^^^Mechanical engineer with emphasis on thermodynamics and HVAC since you wanted to know.

I did find some numbers though (from google so use at your own risk)...

The average person's total lung capacity is around 7 liters (very subjective). The natural tidal volume (each normal breath at resting) is about .5 liter (5000 cubic centimeters) per breath.

To convert cc to cubic feet, multiply by 3.531 x 10^-5

0.00003531 x 5000 = 0.17655 cubic feet of air per breath at rest.

And since a person breathes approximately 14 times per minute at rest,

0.17655 cubic feet * 14 = 2.47 cubic feet / minute of 79% nitrogen : 21% oxygen (by volume). For high altitude acclimatation of 88% nitrogen : 12% oxygen (what most people list for around 12,000 feet), then nitrogren increases 9% (same volume). 0.09 * 2.47cfm = 0.223 cfm added nitrogen required. I've found the average tank can hold about 124 cubic feet of nitrogen. So 124/0.223 = 556 minutes or 9 hours of use with $15 refill..

Its more fooling around than something I would really do. I just wanted to see if it was feasible to NOT buy a 4k system and get the same results. Safety is another issue, but it looks like it could work


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## supercrank (Feb 20, 2004)

*Needs work...*

First off, you're off by a factor of 10: 0.5 liters = 500cc, not 5000cc.

Minute ventilation (product of tidal volume and respiratory rate) is highly variable, and is dependent on factors such as basal metabolic rate and respiratory quotient (varies depending on the proportion of carbohydrate in your diet). Changes in arterial blood CO2 and (to a lesser extent) O2 concentration will also alter your minute ventilation-- breathing in a hypoxic mixture will lead to an increased minute ventilation. However, increasing the minute ventilation also drops CO2 tension in the blood which in general results in a compensatory decrease in ventilatory drive-- at some point your body will arrive at an equilibrium.

Probably the easiest way to deliver the additional N2 would be through a nasal cannula that is typically used in hospitals to deliver supplemental oxygen to patients. If you had a pulse oximeter, you could then titrate the N2 flow rate based on your oxygen saturation. Although it is tough to ballpark exactly how much you would need because of variations in minute ventilation, gas leakage, mouth breathing, etc, a typical conversion is that 1 liter/minute of supplemental gas changes the fraction of inspired gas concentration by roughly 2-5%. As others have mentioned, this is highly risky at best.

In other words, don't do it because you could easily hurt/kill yourself. On the other hand, I'm not even sure if it would work-- if your oxygen level drops, your central respiratory center will compensate by making you hyperventilate, in which case you could overwhelm the small amount of supplmental N2 by breathing in larger amounts of room air. You're better off with the tent, which monitors and regulates the composition of the gas you're breathing.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*How about this...*



supercrank said:


> First off, you're off by a factor of 10: 0.5 liters = 500cc, not 5000cc.
> 
> Minute ventilation (product of tidal volume and respiratory rate) is highly variable, and is dependent on factors such as basal metabolic rate and respiratory quotient (varies depending on the proportion of carbohydrate in your diet). Changes in arterial blood CO2 and (to a lesser extent) O2 concentration will also alter your minute ventilation-- breathing in a hypoxic mixture will lead to an increased minute ventilation. However, increasing the minute ventilation also drops CO2 tension in the blood which in general results in a compensatory decrease in ventilatory drive-- at some point your body will arrive at an equilibrium.
> 
> ...


How about this? Just don't do it, because if you're not a very high level athlete, this isn't really going to help you that much anyway. Save your money and time and spend it on something useful, like wheels or something. I'm willing to bet that the original poster's friend is like a cat. 5 guy with too much money to spend.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Terms*



Boise100 said:


> ^^^Mechanical engineer with emphasis on thermodynamics and HVAC since you wanted to know.


IME, most people would say "I am an engineer" rather than "I have an engineering background." The latter often means "I used to work with engineers" or something similar  

But I digress. As supercrank noted, your math is off by an order of magnitude for direct respiratory volume, but may actually be correct in that you can't just supply that amount of "fresh air" to a space unless you are using a breathing mask. Your numbers suggest around $5K per year for N2 purchase (daily use) to maintain a high performance state. Add that to the significant safety risk, and it seems to me to be a non-starter.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

Kerry Irons said:


> IME, most people would say "I am an engineer" rather than "I have an engineering background." The latter often means "I used to work with engineers" or something similar
> 
> But I digress. As supercrank noted, your math is off by an order of magnitude for direct respiratory volume, but may actually be correct in that you can't just supply that amount of "fresh air" to a space unless you are using a breathing mask. Your numbers suggest around $5K per year for N2 purchase (daily use) to maintain a high performance state. Add that to the significant safety risk, and it seems to me to be a non-starter.


But Kerry, you don't have to do it year round, just for a few weeks before the big race.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

I think you had better skip this project.

First, you will pass out at about 18% and never wake up at 11%. Industrial confined space MINIMUM is 19.5%.

Second is your problem with the metric system.

TF


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## Boise100 (Sep 9, 2003)

Like I said, it was more of an idea. Also, I would never sleep with such a contraption on for safety reasons. Hypoxic interval training (from what I've read) seems to be more effective than just sleeping for hours with a mask on. And since your awake, it would seem to be safer. I guess I'll have to "borrow" the tent when they are out of the country to see if I can sense anything different. Yeah, most likely a non starter.

Your probably not going to believe me but I rarely screw up with my factors of magnitude...opps! Damn Reagen!!!


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## Tahoma (Feb 4, 2005)

*Better Yet!!*

Why not buy one of these for $999 to $1299 http://www.altipower.com/shop/index.php?cPath=21&SID=ac55aad5b8bf73a11fc46e8b9ddb4071

or here is a link to get it cheaper!
http://www.altipower.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=38


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

*Not really free*

Thid is basily a non functioning unit you have to buy the meter to make it work so its really a big discount also min in $85 of shipping. I suggest sleeping with a wet burlap sack over you head.



Tahoma said:


> Why not buy one of these for $999 to $1299 http://www.altipower.com/shop/index.php?cPath=21&SID=ac55aad5b8bf73a11fc46e8b9ddb4071
> 
> or here is a link to get it cheaper!
> http://www.altipower.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=38


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## chipped teeth (Apr 18, 2005)

Boise100 said:


> ^^^Mechanical engineer with emphasis on thermodynamics and HVAC since you wanted to know.


My furnace heats part of my house really well, but other parts not so much. Any ideas?


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

chipped teeth said:


> My furnace heats part of my house really well, but other parts not so much. Any ideas?


Burn the house down, collect the insurance money and move to Rio.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

MikeBiker said:


> I just hold my breath until my face turns blue, rinse, repeat.


I think Armstrong being a swimmer in his young days helped him..they always hold
their breaths..


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## Thorman (Apr 6, 2002)

http://dev.a2coaching.com/drupal/?q=altitudetents

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16338719&query_hl=1


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*How about?*

How about just going out and riding your bikes instead of trying to improve performance with all sorts of contraptions eh? Leave the expensive altitude tents to the people who can most benefit from it (the high level pro guys and girls), and let's leave the weekend warrior stuff to people like us.


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## chipped teeth (Apr 18, 2005)

magnolialover said:


> How about just going out and riding your bikes instead of trying to improve performance with all sorts of contraptions eh? Leave the expensive altitude tents to the people who can most benefit from it (the high level pro guys and girls), and let's leave the weekend warrior stuff to people like us.


Training is hard. I want a quick fix that'll have me winning in May without training in winter. Is that too much to ask?


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

*But but but*



magnolialover said:


> How about just going out and riding your bikes instead of trying to improve performance with all sorts of contraptions eh? Leave the expensive altitude tents to the people who can most benefit from it (the high level pro guys and girls), and let's leave the weekend warrior stuff to people like us.


This is just the thing I need to win my next cat 5 TT. That and a 5k TT frame and fancy wheels. that way I won't have to train just show up and smoke everyone.

Maybe I could market my wet burlap sack idea.

"train like the pros at an amatures price with new Alti-Sack (just add water) (note. maufacturer is not resonsible for death or brain damage)"


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## jhr (May 31, 2002)

I love the picture of the two people on the couch wearing the device/contraption the way they might wear a hat. 

You could wear it anywhere. "Bob why do you have a small vaccum hanging from your neck"


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## 2Fast2Furryious (Jun 11, 2004)

Boise100 said:


> One of my friends just bought an altitude tent to sleep in with the wife. I was curious about just what the benifits of high altitude training.


AWESOME TRAINING IDEA: 

Altitude Tent + wife means sex = extra training. I'll take one of those, and uh...a wife. Or a hooker.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

.....


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Affects sleeping*



Boise100 said:


> One of my friends just bought an altitude tent to sleep in with the wife. I was curious about just what the benifits of high altitude training. Here's what I've found...
> 
> -Increased O2 uptake and delivery (VO2max)
> -Enhanced power output for increased speed, strength and endurance
> ...


You don't sleep as well at "altitude"....so your friend and his wife will eventually get divorced because they are going to be really cranky due to lack of sleep.


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