# Zen Cyclery wheel test.



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Recently I was approached by Roland of Zen Cyclery (Wheels forum poster and wheel builder) and was asked to do some testing of a set of their wheels. I guess he asked me because I'm a passionate wheel person, RBR Wheels forum regular, a home builder of wheels (for 5 decades), always willing to pass on whatever wheel knowledge I have (most of which is on my wheelbuilding page) plus I'm an all-round nice guy. Ok I lied about the last part.

Of course I was honored by his request and very surprised as I'd never spoken to him before, even on this forum, probably because most of Zen's wheelsets are way above my needs - the needs of an older, hard-riding recreational cyclist who is long past his racing days. $2500 wheels, as nice as they might be, would be wasted on me. Plus the cake-topper was this - "If you like the wheels, you can keep them". As if I was going to refuse eh?

After I'd picked myself up off the floor and blurted out an e-mail acceptance, Roland asked for my weight so that he could spec a set of wheels for me. His suggestion was, for my ancient 170lbs body -
Kinlin XR300 rims. Silver.
White Industries H2 & H3 hubs. Silver. Actually they shine like they're chrome plated.
Sapim CX-Ray spokes. Silver. 24/28. Front - x1, elbows out. Rear - x3. Brass nipples.

They sounded like a nice sensible set of wheels, with slightly-below-average weight, built from quality parts. Zen sells this great looking wheelset for $696 with shipping included.

This wheelset was going to be interesting as I've never even laid my hands on a set of Kinlin rims or White Industries hubs before. I'm very familiar with CX-Ray spokes but I haven't ridden with brass nipples in about 15 years. The all silver color combo would be interesting in this age of a plethora of black components. Maybe silver is the new black?

The wheels arrived in two separate boxes. The boxes were so separate that they arrived two days apart! Trembling hands unpacked them. The wheels were beautiful with not a speck of black anywhere and the first all silver wheels I've had in decades. I checked out their parts -

White Industries H2 & H3 hubs. These are nice looking "made in the USA" hubs with replaceable sealed cartridge bearings (5 in the rear hub) and a titanium cassette carrier for both lightness and to prevent sprockets digging in. Compared to some of the best road hubs out there - DT240, DuraAce 7900, Chris King R45 - they're the least expensive of the group ($395) and the 2nd heaviest (349g. CK is the lightest at 317g). I'll guarantee they're the shiniest as they're mirror polished. The great thing about them, apart from their looks, is that they are serviceable and rebuildable without any special tools. They seem to me to be on the quality level of Shimano DuraAce hubs; both have titanium cassette carriers. If you prefer loose ball-bearing, adjustable cone hubs, consider DuraAce. If you'd rather have the easy servicing of almost maintenance-free cartridge bearings then White Industries should be on your list.

Kinlin XR300 rims. These rims are 30mm deep which I guess puts them somewhat into the aero category. Their width is 19mm and advertised weight is 465g. They have a very nice clear anodized finish with a pinned (not welded) joint and a machined brake track. I've never been a great fan of pinned joints as the joint tends to be heavy (and the Kinlins were no exception here) and uneven pinned joints have plagued me in past years. I'll reserve my judgement for the longevity of the Kinlin pinned joint for the future. They look great though and they have a good following on this forum.
I found it somewhat difficult to mount my tires and as I haven't used a tire lever in many years, I'll deduce that Kinlin's rim diameters are slightly bigger than Mavic's. It's no big deal. I just had to remember to pack a tire lever. I always thought people who needed tire levers were weenies. All my tires go on & off all my other wheels by hand.

Sapim CX-Ray spokes. These aero spokes are my favorites and I've used them for about 15 years in both road and mountain bike wheels with zero problems. They're easy to build with due to the fact that any twist can be easily seen, not just assumed; plus they're one of the lightest spokes on the market and well known as being durable.

The wheelset build. Roland at Zen Cyclery built the wheels with 24/28 spokes (exactly what I would have speced for myself) and laced them x1 for the front with heads-in (both a first for me) and the standard x3 at the rear. Perfect. As an obsessed passionate wheelbuilder I check wheels built by others with a fine-toothed comb. The first thing I noticed was a very subtle detail - the hub logos (beautiful deep stampings in this case) were perfectly aligned with the valve hole. This doesn't happen by accident on two wheels. Someone was thinking here. If you peer through the valve hole you can read the hub name. Obsessive, yes. Nice, definitely. Mike T. noticed. The rims were shod with nice looking red FSA rim tapes too.
Then I give them a stress-relieving. Pings and pops here will tell me that the wheelbuilding job wasn't finished. I heard nothing only silence. I plucked the spokes to check for even tension (verrrry important for long wheel life) and I found a great job had been done. Then I placed them on my wheel stand to be judged by the dreaded dial indicator for trueness and dish. Woops! The front wheel wobbled more than I'll settle for and the rear wheel was out of dish. A few minutes with the ol' spoke wrench had those issues cleared up. Hopefully Zen will re-think QC. On went the tires and cassette and the wheels went into the Argon 18 for a photo-op.

This wheelset seems perfectly suited as a mid to high end quality & priced wheelset for training or sporty riding. Its total weight of 1594 grams is mid-way between my benchmark training wheelset of 32 spoke OpenPro rims with DuraAce hubs at 1762 grams (or 1852g with Ultegra hubs) and light clincher wheelsets which are, to me, sub 1450 grams.

The Zen wheels came without any decals on the rims - no Kinlin decals, no Zen Cyclery decals. Nothing. I'm not a fan of flashy decals meant to impress the coffee shop crowd but I'd like to see a tasteful decal of some kind.

I've now done a few rides on the wheels and they have stood up well - as I expected. Any comments that I may have about their performance are purely subjective and anecdotal but they feel laterally stiff as my 170lbs can't flex them, hard as I might try and their 30mm depth didn't provide a harsh ride, which I was expecting. They give me great peace of mind, which I demand from all my wheels especially when I'm miles from home. I'm not interested in wheels with low spoke numbers that make me wonder if I break a spoke whether I might have to phone for a ride home, or worse. My longest ride so far was a 51-miler which happened to take me exactly the same time as the same ride two weeks earlier which was done on shallower 23mm rims and 24/28 CX-Ray spokes, so the extra aero benefit of the deeper XR300 rims was subtle at best. I'm sure other variables make bigger differences.

Nice wheels Zen!


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## Marcos_E (Dec 16, 2007)

Very blingy looking!


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## tidi (Jan 11, 2008)

nothing looks better than clean looking, pure silver wheels. hats off to ZEN as well:thumbsup:


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

It's not ham...


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Mike T

That is one sweet looking wheelsets/bike!!

Impressed with Roland's work as well, except I went with exactly opposite of what you got, all black hubs, spokes and CF rims.

After a numerous emails/calls, I decided to get a set of CF wheels.
I ordered a set of Edge 45 Clinchers w/Alchemy hubs and CX-Rays spokes, and not only they were a beauty, it weighed less than 1300 grams! I couldn't believe how light they were. It felt almost as light as my old Reynold DV-UL tublars that had DT hubs and 16/20 spokes. That's where the similarity ends. Unlikely the whippy 16/20 combo DV-UL, mine was laced with 20/24 - 1X front and 2X rear, and it was one of the most laterally stout wheelset I have owned.
I tried to flex these wheels (purposely narrowed the brake calipers), but I couldn't make it to rub at all. Or, and it rides beautifully.

I was so impressed with his work, I ordered another set of wheelset, XR 270/Alchemy hubs/CX-Rays with 24/28, all black again.....


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## dualpivot (Oct 25, 2009)

Mike T. - those wheels are beautiful indeed and look great on the bike. Excellent work Roland of Zen Cyclery! That price is competitive as well.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

your wheels look like the ones on my touring bike.

$700 ? you can get a set of Dura Ace 7850-C24-CL for that price.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Mike T. The thing that stands out from your review :

"Then I placed them on my wheel stand to be judged by the dreaded dial indicator for trueness and dish. Woops! The front wheel wobbled more than I'll settle for and the rear wheel was out of dish. A few minutes with the ol' spoke wrench had those issues cleared up. "

Uhh, how much are we talking here? 1/2mm? 3mm?


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

170 lbs and you think you need 24/28 spokes? 16/20 would have sufficed and surely 20/24 would have been more than robust don't you think?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

natedg200202 said:


> Mike T. The thing that stands out from your review :
> 
> "Then I placed them on my wheel stand to be judged by the dreaded dial indicator for trueness and dish. Woops! The front wheel wobbled more than I'll settle for and the rear wheel was out of dish. A few minutes with the ol' spoke wrench had those issues cleared up. "
> 
> Uhh, how much are we talking here? 1/2mm? 3mm?


glad someone pointed that out - while it might be nice that the hub logos match up with the tube valve, I'd rather have trued and dished wheels out of the box...


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

My thoughts too, but some are more comfortable with higher counts. I weigh 175 +/- 5 and have been running two wheelsets that are the same as those with respect to hubs, rims, spokes and nipples, for three years with the only difference being that the spoke count on mine are 20/24 and 18/24......haven't touched them with a spoke wrench and they both have many 1,000s of miles. Lacing on mine are Radial Front and 2X in the rear, but that shouldn't make a big difference in performance. 24/28 should go forever. 

I do like the look of White Indurstries polished hubs. If they get dirty, just hit them with some Semichrome polish on a soft rag and they look brand new.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

MCF said:


> 170 lbs and you think you need 24/28 spokes? 16/20 would have sufficed and surely 20/24 would have been more than robust don't you think?


MCF, when it comes to numbers of spokes I'm on the conservative side as I won't risk a potential long walk carrying my bike for the sake of a few grams that won't make me go any faster. I'm no faster this year than I was last year on 32/32 spoke wheels. I've talked to guys on the net who not only couldn't ride their wheel when a spoke broke, they couldn't even wheel the bike either.

When one full small waterbottle weighs 648 grams, the weight savings of approx 85 grams from 16 ~ 18 less spokes borders on meaningless. To me anyway.

If I was out & out racing and I weighed 135 - 150lbs (which is the correct race weigh for my height) and these weren't more "general purpose" wheels I might be thinking about that. I'm not into wondering how few spokes I can get away with.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

natedg200202 said:


> Mike T. The thing that stands out from your review :
> "Then I placed them on my wheel stand to be judged by the dreaded dial indicator for trueness and dish. Woops! The front wheel wobbled more than I'll settle for and the rear wheel was out of dish. A few minutes with the ol' spoke wrench had those issues cleared up. "
> Uhh, how much are we talking here? 1/2mm? 3mm?


The front wheel lateral was 0.024" (my standards are a max of 0.010") and the rear dish was out about 3mm.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Glad you like them and I'm happy with mine, but odd that they needed to be slightly adjusted. Mine arrived ready to go, minus having to glue the tubulars.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks for the thoughtful review. Enjoy...looks like a very nice set of wheels.


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## SM-Rider (May 2, 2007)

You've all missed a very important point here. I am also available to test one of Zen's wheelsets and deliver an unbiased review <wink>. And since the H2/H3 - Kinlin combo has already been reviewed, I guess I can do a review on the Alchemy - Edge combo.


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## medimond (Apr 26, 2009)

I also found Roland great to work with! 

I love the silver hubs look. Cadel Evans rocked a white rim in the Giro, which gave me the idea of white rim. I ended up with WI H2/H3, Kinlin 270 in white, 20/28 black spokes + one red one next to the valve stem, red nipples. Only 400 miles so far on them.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

SM-Rider said:


> You've all missed a very important point here. I am also available to test one of Zen's wheelsets and deliver an unbiased review <wink>. And since the H2/H3 - Kinlin combo has already been reviewed, I guess I can do a review on the Alchemy - Edge combo.


Haha. Ohh boy this one almost made me drop a scaulding cup of coffee on myself.


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## josephjcole (Jun 1, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> MCF, when it comes to numbers of spokes I'm on the conservative side as I won't risk a potential long walk carrying my bike for the sake of a few grams that won't make me go any faster. I'm no faster this year than I was last year on 32/32 spoke wheels. I've talked to guys on the net who not only couldn't ride their wheel when a spoke broke, they couldn't even wheel the bike either.


I have had a spoke break on my 30mm rim, 20 spoke front wheel, and only had to open my brakes slightly to be able to bike home approx 40 miles... 
I guess every wheel is different as is every spoke failure. Mine however certainly wasn't much of an issue. I was still able to enjoy the rest of my ride, before replacing the broken spoke.
Joe


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## medimond (Apr 26, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> your wheels look like the ones on my touring bike.
> 
> $700 ? you can get a set of Dura Ace 7850-C24-CL for that price.


I couldn't find any place on the web within $200 of that price .... exactly where should I be looking at?


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## bent steel (Dec 28, 2007)

medimond said:


> I couldn't find any place on the web within $200 of that price .... exactly where should I be looking at?


Chain Reaction gets you withing $32 of $700, shipped to the US.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=25007


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## Weav (Jun 21, 2009)

Very nice build indeed! I think the wheels with red nips would look great on that Argon.


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## SM-Rider (May 2, 2007)

*one other thing...*

Did I mention that I also own and ride an Argon 18? 




Zen Cyclery said:


> Haha. Ohh boy this one almost made me drop a scaulding cup of coffee on myself.


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## sftl97 (Aug 11, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> The front wheel lateral was 0.024" (my standards are a max of 0.010") and the rear dish was out about 3mm.


OK. dumb questions. How big a deal is this? Does this mean that anyone buying a set of wheels (custom in this case) needs to have them checked by local wheel builder/LBS before mounting tires? The whole point of custom/handbuilt is not to have to worry about this sort of thing.
Is there something I'm missing?

thx


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

sftl97 said:


> OK. dumb questions. How big a deal is this? Does this mean that anyone buying a set of wheels (custom in this case) needs to have them checked by local wheel builder/LBS before mounting tires? The whole point of custom/handbuilt is not to have to worry about this sort of thing.
> Is there something I'm missing?
> thx


Good question. I'll give you my opinion. I think Murphy's Law and **** Happens all came together at this time. I think this was an unfortunate one-off. Roland was embarrassed but understood that I had no choice other than to report my findings. Nothing in this world is 100% perfect 100% of the time and it was just lucky that I could deal with this myself in ten minutes. What would have been sad is if I suppressed that piece of information or had been asked not to report it. If it makes Zen a better wheelbuilder then we all gain.


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## sftl97 (Aug 11, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> Good question. I'll give you my opinion. I think Murphy's Law and **** Happens all came together at this time. I think this was an unfortunate one-off. Roland was embarrassed but understood that I had no choice other than to report my findings. Nothing in this world is 100% perfect 100% of the time and it was just lucky that I could deal with this myself in ten minutes. What would have been sad is if I suppressed that piece of information or had been asked not to report it. If it makes Zen a better wheelbuilder then we all gain.


Maybe I should explain. I wasn’t trying to point to a flaw in custom wheel building or in the quality of a Zen build. Far too many high praising posts on this forum about Zen’s builds for me to question his product. Especially since I’m a nobody who knows squat about this.

I was just trying to understand the impact..
Would the difference in the tolerances you mentioned be noticeable? Is it something where you can find yourself face down on the pavement? Or is it more like noticing something just doesn’t feel right? Or maybe nothing at all.

Thx again.

Fred


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

sftl97 said:


> Maybe I should explain. I wasn’t trying to point to a flaw in custom wheel building or in the quality of a Zen build. Far too many high praising posts on this forum about Zen’s builds for me to question his product. Especially since I’m a nobody who knows squat about this.
> I was just trying to understand the impact..
> Would the difference in the tolerances you mentioned be noticeable? Is it something where you can find yourself face down on the pavement? Or is it more like noticing something just doesn’t feel right? Or maybe nothing at all.
> Thx again.
> Fred


More good questions Fred! And I'll answer as honestly as I can. The lateral runout (wobble) of the front wheel was 0.023" (twenty three thou) or 0.548mm. This is not noticeable when riding and is not important to the integrity (safety) of the wheel. Sufficient tension and equality of tensions are far more important (read about this on my site). Zen had done those jobs just fine. As equal tension is more important it's possible and preferable to have equal tensions to the detriment of ultimate trueness. It's a juggling act.

When I build wheels I aim to get lateral trueness under 0.010" (ten thou) or 0.254mm. That's not hard to do. I can get them under 5 thou and 3 thou is quite possible but the returns are extremely diminished for time spent as 3 thou is about the thickness of a piece of paper. I got Zen's wheel to about 10 thou (I don't fuss much over my own wheels) but to the detriment of absolute equal tensions. Again, it's all a juggling act as there are no perfect rims, spoke gauges, wheelbuilding equipment or people.

The dish - this was out approx 3mm and I did not measure it. On the bike I could see that the rim was too close to one of my brake pads. I can now do one of two thing - re-center the brake caliper or re-dish. Only one of them is acceptable to me. This certainly isn't an issue to wheel integrity as again, tension and equality of tensions plus stress relief was just fine.

I won't make excuses for Roland and also won't assume the issues to be indicative of all his wheelbuilds. If it had happened to me it would be one of those "Dohhh" :mad2: face/palm moments where I wish I could wind back the clock. We've already had a laugh over this via e-mail.


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## jwp3476 (Jun 22, 2010)

MikeT,

As another "senior" conservitive rider I prefer more spokes to weight weenie wheels that may or may not last under my 185 lbs. I would have ordered a 32 3x rear on my latest wheelset but Edge doesn't seem to offer them.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

jwp3476 said:


> MikeT,
> 
> As another "senior" conservitive rider I prefer more spokes to weight weenie wheels that may or may not last under my 185 lbs. I would have ordered a 32 3x rear on my latest wheelset but Edge doesn't seem to offer them.


A 32 hole spoke count on a stiff rim like an Edge would be overkill. It would be stiff to the point where you would feel every little bump the road has to offer. For 185 lb rider, you would be just fine with a 28h rear wheel with an Edge rim.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zen Cyclery said:


> A 32 hole spoke count on a stiff rim like an Edge would be overkill. It would be stiff to the point where you would feel every little bump the road has to offer. For 185 lb rider, you would be just fine with a 28h rear wheel with an Edge rim.


You're right Roland. Deeper rims have come along since us ol' geezers began riding and from what I gather the deep rim stiffness calls for less spokes. Back in the day (when I road raced) it was all 36 spoke tubular rims. Exotic wheels had 32 spokes and OMG wheels  , for very special occasions were 28/28. There was nothing below that. How times change.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

I'm with y'all on the 'slightly more spokes is better' thing. I started riding back in about 87, I know it ain't as long ago as some of y'all, but my thinking is based on the fact that 'to finish first, first you must finish.' Broken spokes under my 195-ish lb carcass ain't gonna help me finish, much less train!

While I haven't personally raced on a 35-hole wheel, I have buddies that have. I HAVE hit someone else's wheel in a crit and had half the spokes in my front wheel ripped out. 

Give me durability first, aero a very close second, and weight a distant third.

My $.02 and YMMV

M


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## sftl97 (Aug 11, 2009)

Mike T., thanks for the comeback and information.

Fred


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

sftl97 said:


> Mike T., thanks for the comeback and information.
> Fred


You're very welcome Fred.


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

Mike, 
What would you have done if you weren't a wheel builder or knew how to true a wheel?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

maximum7 said:


> Mike,
> What would you have done if you weren't a wheel builder or knew how to true a wheel?


I don't know. I've never been in that position. I think I'd do what I had to do when I trued/built my first wheel - learn really fast. There was no published knowledge on the subject then. Now it's infinitely easier.


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## medimond (Apr 26, 2009)

Hey Mike T, are you planning on making any long term comments on the wheel set?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

medimond said:


> Hey Mike T, are you planning on making any long term comments on the wheel set?


Yep I sure am. I was going to wait 'till the end of the riding season. I e-mailed Zen's Roland just yesterday with an update and all I had to say was -_
"I oiled (my) chain yesterday and spun both wheels and let my thumb rub up against the brake track. They felt as true as they ever were. The only "negative" is that the rear WI hub (due to the un-anodized high polish) gets stained easily from sweat and slobber. I've polished it a couple of times back to a mirror shine. If that's a negative then it's the only one of the wheelset."_


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

WI hubs are not anodized, just bright polished, so that is a potential downside to them. But, as you said, a little semichrome polish on a soft cloth and its good as new. WI does offer a Black anodized hub, if polishing them isn't your thing.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Nice review*

That's a great read, complete and with pics. Nicely done.

I've been buidling wheels on and off since the mid-70's and your comments about the wheels we raced on then are spot on. In fact, I still have them.

I only weigh 55kg, easy on equipment and have never broken a spoke but I'm still building 32, 3x wheels for myself.

I recently bought some Soul 2.0's because he's a local rider and builder where I live and they came in at 1,330 on my scales. I've ridden them enough to start thinking about trying some low spoke count wheels so the review was timely. Not sure about the weight on the Kinlin 300 or even 270 but it seems the profile contributes to their strength. I like the weight of their 200 so we shall see. The good news is that Kinlin availability locally is poor


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## VanillaGorila (May 14, 2010)

Mike, any updates?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

VanillaGorila said:


> Mike, any updates?


Not really. Yes & no. The wheels performed just fine as expected and looked like a million $ while they were doing it. The White Industries hubs, not being anodized, take sweat stains easily but the good part is that after a polishing with Brasso they twinkle like stars. They're just beautiful works of art.

I recently took them off the bike and loaned them to an old riding buddy for him to test. I put somewhere like a six month limit on the loan and he has to give me feedback and a test report. He couldn't believe his luck.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

my commuter wheels probably have double that runout, and my rear wheel is ridiculously out of dish (rush job, built at night and had to ride the next morning). Switching from a perfectly true, perfectly dished wheel, I couldnt ever notice a difference. 

Now if you compared a hideously built, but dead true wheel (like a performance bike op/ult wheel), to a well built, even tensioned wheel with some runout.. the even tension wheel will ride significantly better. Especially the rear. 

I think it shows a lot of integrity that mike reported the runout, but a little runout is alright.


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