# Sapim Spokes



## mitong (Oct 15, 2009)

*Recommend me some spokes Sapim Spokes*

1st time building wheels here. Ordered Velocity ESCAPE tubular rims with Velocity race hubs 24/28. Should i go with Sapim Laser Spokes @ $1.30 per spoke or Sapim CX Ray Spokes @ $3.20 per spoke (Neuvation) Any feedback pros/cons for those who have used them. Do you know of a vendor who sells them cheaper? Should i use other spoke trying to get the wheels as light as possible without breaking the bank
Thanks in advance for the info.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

CX-Rays are easier to build with, and more aerodynamic, but way more expensive.

Unless you want to go with titanium spokes, or the SuperSpoke or its Wheelsmith equivalent, you won't get any lighter.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Sapim spokes work well, I have built wheels with both those you mention. If the budget allows, my choice would be the C Xrays. As far as a source,consider Alchemy Bicycles, they will have everything you need at prices less than you listed. If you choose the X-rays, don't forget to buy a spoke holder. Alchemy makes one that works well.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mitong said:


> Any feedback pros/cons for those who have used them.


Neither spoke is as easy to build with as regular 2.0/1.8/2.0 butted spokes as, with the Revs, the extra twist has got to be acknowledged and dealt with and with the Rays, it's got to be prevented (with the spoke holding tool). For a Newb (and even a non-Newb) that just adds to the complexity of the job.


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## mitong (Oct 15, 2009)

thanks for the info, will i notice big difference bladed vs non bladed spokes?


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## mitong (Oct 15, 2009)

cdhbrad said:


> Sapim spokes work well, I have built wheels with both those you mention. If the budget allows, my choice would be the C Xrays. As far as a source,consider Alchemy Bicycles, they will have everything you need at prices less than you listed. If you choose the X-rays, don't forget to buy a spoke holder. Alchemy makes one that works well.


thanks for the info, will i notice big difference bladed vs non bladed spokes?


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

mitong said:


> thanks for the info, will i notice big difference bladed vs non bladed spokes?


If you mean in an aerodynamic sense, then no, not really. Spoke count will have a far larger impact than spoke type.


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## Bike Poor (Sep 17, 2009)

Dans Comp has Laser spokes at $.85 if they have your lengths.
http://www.danscomp.com/products-PARTS-Spokes/435927/Sapim_Laser_Stainless_Spoke.html


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

That is the same price as Alchemy and I've never ordered from them when they didn't have the length I needed. Also, Alchemy will sell you only the number you need, not minimums like 20 or 25 per length.


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## sanrensho (Jan 2, 2003)

I second the recommendation the Alchemy. I had a very pleasant experience ordering from them and would not hesitate to use them again.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Icyclesusa.com has revs for 69 cents each, custom cut to length. 



> thanks for the info, will i notice big difference bladed vs non bladed spokes?


Absolutely not.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I have built several wheel sets with CX Rays and they do save weight and are more aero however the difference is very small. I have not had any durability problems with these spokes. I would use DB 14/15 spokes from Sapim, DT or Wheelsmith unless you really want to spend the extra money for CX Rays. They are very easy to build with when using the Alchemy tool mentioned above.


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

I routinely use DT Revolutions (same dimensions as Sapim Laser) on the NDS to help equalise elastic strain with the DT Comps on the drive side. As long as you are thorough with stress relief, they do not overly complicate the build.

I would not use them, nor the CX rays, on a 24 spoke front wheel - IMO the tiny reduction in weight is not worth the significant reduction in lateral stiffness. Others will disagree.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I would have to throw in a third vote for getting them from Alchemy. You can order as little as one if you like and Sarah and Jeremy have always been a great pleasure to deal with. Durability on the CXrays is quite impressive though. Even though it is a bit lighter they are still damn durable even for heavy duty applications such as mountain biking.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Sorry to piggy-back, but could someone tell me is there a difference in ride or wheel flex/ strength between cx rays and comps? And, are comps and sapim race pretty much the same or each companies equal? 
Thanks.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Cx rays are the flexiest (equal to lasers and revs though). I bet they might transfer pedaling power better, as they're broader in that axis, but side to side they'll all have similar flex between the 3 of those. 

Keep in mind that extra flex makes them stronger, in if strong means durable.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

TomH said:


> Cx rays are the flexiest (equal to lasers and revs though). I bet they might transfer pedaling power better, as they're broader in that axis, but side to side they'll all have similar flex between the 3 of those.
> 
> Keep in mind that extra flex makes them stronger, in if strong means durable.


I don't know if stronger is the best word to describe their long term durability. Their fatigue life is longer than other spokes. Most people would probably say the same wheel built with 14G spokes is stronger even though the spokes will generally not last as long.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

So, would one be better to go with cx rays if one can afford them as opposed to comps? Would 32 3x rays be the best or waste of money compared to comps?


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

TomH said:


> I bet they might transfer pedaling power better, as they're broader in that axis,


 Nope, not even a little bit. 

Spokes are loaded in pure tension - they carry no shear load*. Their mechanical performance is determined by the cross sectional area.

* they are effectively pivoted at each end, obviating the ability to transmit a shear load.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

T K said:


> could someone tell me is there a difference in ride or wheel flex/ strength between cx rays and comps?


I have wheels with both types of spokes (2 sets of each) and I don't notice the difference in the spokes' flex or strength.



> And, are comps and sapim race pretty much the same or each companies equal?


Both are top quality spoke companies. I have wheels with Comps and Race and again, I can't tell the difference.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Mark Kelly said:


> Spokes.............carry no shear load.


And if anyone doubts this I'll get poster *Meltingfeather* from MTBR (a mechanical engineer) to drop by to give a lesson in pre-tensioned structures (his specialty).


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks guys. 
Would it be safe to say then that the advantage to cx rays would be small weight savings, may last a bit longer and if you choose to believe, more aero? Or if you care, looks?


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Mark Kelly said:


> Nope, not even a little bit.
> 
> Spokes are loaded in pure tension - they carry no shear load*. Their mechanical performance is determined by the cross sectional area.
> 
> * they are effectively pivoted at each end, obviating the ability to transmit a shear load.


You're right, I didnt really think about it like that. It would have to be a fixed support on the hub end, not rim end.

Normal spokes will outlast a rim when built right. People make the durability argument, which while correct.. does it really matter when the "weaker" spoke isnt failing? 

40 cents for a race spoke vs 3 bucks for a cx ray is a pretty big difference. For a standard 32 spoke wheelset, thats almost 200 bucks in spokes alone.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

T K said:


> Thanks guys.
> Would it be safe to say then that the advantage to cx rays would be small weight savings, may last a bit longer and if you choose to believe, more aero? Or if you care, looks?


A weight savings over their Race spokes. Same as their Lazer, which they're forged from.
I can't imagine why they would last longer. Any chart on their site claiming this will stand up to zero scrutiny.
Aero? For sure. But can you measure it? You can't feel it.
Looks? For sure - the chicks dig 'em more than scars.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

TomH said:


> 40 cents for a race spoke vs 3 bucks for a cx ray is a pretty big difference. For a standard 32 spoke wheelset, thats almost 200 bucks in spokes alone.


People buy zillions of factory boutique wheelsets containing $7-$15 spokes and they don't bat any eye. But mention $3 CX-Rays and some people start to gasp. I just don't understand it.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

I dont buy factory wheels with $7-$15 spokes either. 

If you just want to have them, hey go for it. Your money. If you think you're somehow buying durability, you are wasting your money. They're certainly not bad spokes by any means, but they are what they are.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

TomH said:


> I dont buy factory wheels with $7-$15 spokes either.


You couldn't give me a set. They're not sucking me into their game.



> If you just want to have them, hey go for it. Your money. If you think you're somehow buying durability, you are wasting your money. They're certainly not bad spokes by any means, but they are what they are.


Anyone with a bike that's worth more than about $1000 has already fallen into the same trap. There are many things we buy that cost way more than what we "need".


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## Kenrow (Dec 21, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> I can't imagine why they would last longer. Any chart on their site claiming this will stand up to zero scrutiny.


Yes, but according to Sapim's website, the Cx-Rays far exceed any of their other spokes in fatigue life.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kenrow said:


> Yes, but according to Sapim's website, the Cx-Rays far exceed any of their other spokes in fatigue life.


They can say what they want but that chart thing give no parameters of how the test was performed. An engineer over at MTBR just about wet himself over it.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Sooo, like I thought? If you want to spend the extra coin on the rays go ahead, but the upside is minimal at best?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

T K said:


> Sooo, like I thought? If you want to spend the extra coin on the rays go ahead, but the upside is minimal at best?


Yes, you've got it TK - they offer diminished returns like most things on bikes (and many other places in life). For instance - I use Thomson stems on my bikes that cost me $75 when I could use a $25 el-cheapo that will go just as fast. CX-Rays must have SOME aero benefit but can us mere mortals get advantage from that? And IF CX-Rays had more longevity than other spokes, how often do we use other spokes to their bitter end?

But none of that has stopped me having CX-Rays in most of my wheels. Why? because I wanted them; just like those Thomson stems.


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## figo (Jun 27, 2011)

Same here, these days I'm only building my new wheels with Sapim CX rays, for my roadbike, my 26er mtb and my 29er.

The only Sapims that have broken on me were all crash related (snapped derailleur in my roadbike at 40+ kph and a arm thick stick in my mtb during a downhil). Last weekend a guy crashed into the back of my bike, snapping the seatstay in half, the spoke was merely bent. 

I think the strength of the Sapims are in the flexibility, they give rather than break when stressed. On my older wheelsets I've broken spokes just cycling, I guess those were fatigue related.


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