# Post Roubaix Discussion



## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Great victory for Van Summeren, all the more impressive when you figure he had vaughters in his earpiece the last 10k telling him to sit up and save energy to sprint for 5th place .
In all seriousness, I think with his skills a long overdue win. he looked like he had the abilty with Lotto, but got lost last year with Garmin. I wonder how much van petegem helped him?


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

Also happy for Van Summeren. Great rider, and he made a great attack and made it stick.

I would love to know what passed between FC and the Garmin car:
FC: I'm not towing Thor to the line.
JV/PVP: Well, we have Johan in the break. Where's your guy?

Cancellara is awesome but it helps to have a team. I wonder how he's feeling about his move to Leopard about now.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

I think bjarne riis is smirking: "ah sparticus, not so easy without a team, is it!"


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

farm said:


> Cancellara is awesome but it helps to have a team. I wonder how he's feeling about his move to Leopard about now.


Well, I didn't see a lot of Saxo Banks up front either.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Fignon's Barber said:


> I think bjarne riis is smirking: "ah sparticus, not so easy without a team, is it!"


not like riis had one to offer


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*agreed*

one strong man cannot beat one in the break and one on the wheel
Garmin had all the good cards and played them well
QS was cursed today, but that is how it goes


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## matchmaker (Aug 15, 2009)

Great victory for Van Summeren and in contrast with Nuyens last week, this time it was with style. He made the decisive jump on the Carrefour, the place to be and then time-trialed to victory. Tjallingii broke in the man to man battle.

Paris Roubaix is a mix of different factors: strength, tactics and luck. The difference with other races, I think is that maybe tactics are ever so slightly less important in PR than in the Tour of Flanders or Milan San Remo. Generally if your strong in PR you will end in the top 10, because on the cobblestones there is no mercy. The best always come out in front. Luck, then again, plays a much bigger role than in other races, as mechanicals or falls can easily cost you the race. Look at what happened to Boonen this year, to Hushovd a few years ago, etc. etc. One guy that was unlucky was Boom, after bridging the gap to the leading group and bringing Van Summeren and others with him, he got a puncture and was thrown back. So you could wonder what would have happened if he did not have that puncture, but then again, if he had been really the strongest he should have been able to follow Cancellara when he attacked.

So, all in all Van Summeren is a great and deserving winner. Cancellara does miss a strong classics team, although I also suspect he was just not good enough to get rid of the others.


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

When you have numbers and strong riders, tactics are easy.
FC is in the same spot George was in during the Postal days. 
The fear of FC is forcing other teams to ride aggressively early on, definately makes the races more interesting.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

den bakker said:


> not like riis had one to offer


my point was that FC left riis for greener pastures, but in retrospect after the events of the last 2 weekends, it looks like they made a pretty good team in the past. riis is probably pretty satisfied to win 1/2 the flanders/roubaix double this year.


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

harlond said:


> Well, I didn't see a lot of Saxo Banks up front either.


True. But there was at least one in the mix last week. And 1) I believe FC had options as to where to go, 2) if he commits to staying maybe Riis commits more resources to him? I don't know. I just think after last year Cancellara may have gotten a little overconfident. Even last week, he could have won easily, but he wanted to win in a spectacular fashion. I expect he will lobby for more support, and win a bunch more of these races.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

Yes, there is hope for the 6'3" guys out there!!!!!!! Though that guy is wicked skinny!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

farm said:


> True. But there was at least one in the mix last week. And 1) I believe FC had options as to where to go, 2) if he commits to staying maybe Riis commits more resources to him?


when would Riis do that? it was months from it was clear the sclecks et al were leaving until Cancellara left and there was nothing signed in that period. Nuyens was only given a contract after Cancellara left.


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

den bakker said:


> when would Riis do that? it was months from it was clear the sclecks et al were leaving until Cancellara left and there was nothing signed in that period. Nuyens was only given a contract after Cancellara left.


Fair enough. I didn't remember the timing.


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Nuyens win..*

Nuyen's win was in style.. He was the smartest one.. . He knew he had no team support, conserved as much as he could and stuck it.. I mean, crap, that's racing.. You mean no sprint wins have style.. I mean Cavendish, Cipo, etc. are literally had delivered to the line by their teams.. Nuyen's team wasn't there.. He used his brain and won.. Nothing wrong with that..


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## matchmaker (Aug 15, 2009)

Mosovich said:


> Nuyen's win was in style.. He was the smartest one.. . He knew he had no team support, conserved as much as he could and stuck it.. I mean, crap, that's racing.. You mean no sprint wins have style.. I mean Cavendish, Cipo, etc. are literally had delivered to the line by their teams.. Nuyen's team wasn't there.. He used his brain and won.. Nothing wrong with that..


Well, I don't agree with that. It was a win but not one in style. He did not do a meter of pulling against the wind until the final sprint. The decisive moves in the race were made by others.

Van Summeren's win was far more deserving. He made the decisive moves and was strong enough to finish it off.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Van Summeren spent the finale at Tour de France chasing around the Champs Elysees. He got a flat the first cirucuit and chased for the rest of the day. He was so tired he rode on the back of a moto during the team presentations at the end....here is your PR winner riding easy.


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## peter584 (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm as suprised as Jonathan Vaughters!!!


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## cyclelogic72 (Dec 1, 2006)

ronderman said:


> Yes, there is hope for the 6'3" guys out there!!!!!!! Though that guy is wicked skinny!


6'3? Van Summeren is 6'5"! Surely the tallest PR winner ever, no?


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Being a nOOB, I ask this question:

Did the PR win look similar to Tour of Flanders in regards to where FC was at the finish line and who beat him/won the race?

Both finishes looked very similar.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

It was up to Canada to hold up North America's result in the race. David Veilleux's very first PR.

David Veilleux (Europcar) posted an excellent Roubaix debut to lead the North American contingent with 25th at 3:45 back. Veilleux worked into the day’s main breakaway and held tough until the final 20km, when he said the length and battering of Roubaix almost got the best of him.

“We wanted to have a rider in the break, so I was glad to get out there. I was happy to be able to ride my first Roubaix in a smaller group, especially across the Arenberg. I had heard horror stories about how rough that it when the peloton is roaring into that in a full sprint,” Veilleux said.

“I had never raced longer than 200km in North America, and now over here in Europe, we’ve been going 200-220km almost every race. I was doing OK until the final 20km or so, then I really started to suffer.”

Not the next Steve Bauer. The first David Veilleux.

Go Canada!


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

matchmaker said:


> Well, I don't agree with that. It was a win but not one in style. He did not do a meter of pulling against the wind until the final sprint. The decisive moves in the race were made by others.
> 
> Van Summeren's win was far more deserving. He made the decisive moves and was strong enough to finish it off.


Your wrong Nick pulled through in the break not as much as FC but them he wasn't riding desperate like FC was so he did enough work to help the group stay clear of Boonen. He also chased back after at least one crash and made the correct splits so his win had styel its just wasn't a solo breakaway. Solo breaks are cool (hey its how I have gotten almost all my wins) but its cool to watch guys who aren't the strongest but are smart read a race well and win too.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

cyclelogic72 said:


> 6'3? Van Summeren is 6'5"! Surely the tallest PR winner ever, no?


Surely is the tallest - 6'3" and up just spells trouble for cycling - our headtubes, you could grab a fist full of headtube and still not be touching the top or down tube. The bikes always look weird. It is great to see a tall guy win - even the 44cm bars look bigger. 

I was watching him when he was on Domo. When he was on Lotto the guy would take massive monster pulls in Paris Roubaix and I gotta admit, I thought it was odd he went to Garmin. You hardly even saw him last year, but when I saw him in the break today I knew he could win and I have to admit, JV redeemed himself after the fiasco at Flanders. That was a good call and I'm sure no one had VS on their list for potential winners. That is how you work over Fabian and that is how you win - good win all around.

And, great to see the tall guy get the victory!!!!!


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

well, Garmin finally delivered...good for them.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

It was nice to see the win go to a non-favorite. Though, I think Cancellara's effort and unwillingness to let up and coast in for 5th place says a lot about him as a competitor. It seemed several of the riders in his group had pretty much given up on the day with 20km left, so I was amazed that Cancellara continued throwing himself out front with no help. It was... *gasp* heroic. From right after the Arenberg he just gave the most tremendous effort. Kudos to both Van Summeren and Spartacus.


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## ghost6 (Sep 4, 2009)

Dajianshan said:


> It was nice to see the win go to a non-favorite. Though, I think Cancellara's effort and unwillingness to let up and coast in for 5th place says a lot about him as a competitor. It seemed several of the riders in his group had pretty much given up on the day with 20km left, so I was amazed that Cancellara continued throwing himself out front with no help. It was... *gasp* heroic. From right after the Arenberg he just gave the most tremendous effort. Kudos to both Van Summeren and Spartacus.


I agree. Good to see a non-favorite win, but Cancellara's climb to 2nd was incredible. I hope all of FB's wheel suckers (especially Thor) realize what happened.


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## Sylint (Jul 27, 2009)

ghost6 said:


> I agree. Good to see a non-favorite win, but Cancellara's climb to 2nd was incredible. I hope all of FB's wheel suckers (especially Thor) realize what happened.


why the hell would Thor pull?


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

Sylint said:


> why the hell would Thor pull?


so, cancellara would bestow him his grace.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

#1 Thor pulled. A LOT. He was the favorite for Garmin and that benefited VanSumeren (spelling?) who didn't have to work very hard in the break. Thor rode as the race favorite except when Fabian was attacking, when he marked him. Exactly the way he should.
#2 FC was AMAZING. Just as amazing as he was last week. The way the race worked out a win wasn't possible but usually when a guy can b***h about being marked, it isn't from the podium. He is an unstoppable force and he's going to race angry for the rest of the year. I can't wait to watch it.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

Here are my thoughts now that I watched it on TV

1. Van Summeren deserved the win

2. Thor played it well too - on Fabian's wheel every time - pull through, sorry, I got a strong team mate upfront. That's bike racing.

3. Paul Sherwin has a new phrase "they will DECANT more riders once they . . ." - he used it al least twice, be prepared to hear more of it

4. The blue Giro helmets on Garmin - wicked ugly, they look like buckets

5. The oakley glasses on garmin, ugly too, and it's true - white does make you look fat

6. I guess that Mavic new 40mm wheel works

7. Quick step had a bad, bad day

8. Fabian is wicked strong, but his team isn't as stacked as he'd like to think - where was Stuey? 

9. Tjallinginni - that guy is a stud, took some wicked pulls and out front since 80k

10. The two national champs in the break, the guy from Switzerland and the rider from Astana - total studs.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ronderman said:


> Surely is the tallest - 6'3" and up just spells trouble for cycling - our headtubes, you could grab a fist full of headtube and still not be touching the top or down tube. The bikes always look weird. It is great to see a tall guy win - even the 44cm bars look bigger.
> 
> I was watching him when he was on Domo. When he was on Lotto the guy would take massive monster pulls in Paris Roubaix and I gotta admit, I thought it was odd he went to Garmin. You hardly even saw him last year, but when I saw him in the break today I knew he could win and I have to admit, JV redeemed himself after the fiasco at Flanders. That was a good call and I'm sure no one had VS on their list for potential winners. That is how you work over Fabian and that is how you win - good win all around.
> 
> And, great to see the tall guy get the victory!!!!!


Check out the slammed stem


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Check out the slammed stem


Slammed 140 stem!!!! I try to ride a 140mm stem, not turned negative and with spacers - and it's hard - so good to see him win.


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## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

Was that Boonen who had his chain seize up on him right on the cobbles, with no aid car in sight?


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

He was smack in the middle of the Arenberg cobbles and, from what I read, he had a puncture. He just stood there looking bewildered over the futility of his situation. Then he crashed again during a ballsy comeback.


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## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

Dajianshan said:


> He was smack in the middle of the Arenberg cobbles and, from what I read, he had a puncture. He just stood there looking bewildered over the futility of his situation. Then he crashed again during a ballsy comeback.


Ah, the TV guys made it sound like his chain or something seized. My impression was that he was basically riding fixed at that point. But yeah, that was at the WORST possible spot for anything to happen; right on the road that was close to the motorcade.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Hushovd said he was dozing when Cancellara went. But of course he knew what that _riding lamppost_ and superb team player Van Summeren is capable of. The race was won.










It was good to se Gabba Rasch do massive pulls for G-C. Way back when Hushovd won the U23 P-R Gabba was last man standing for him.

---

And those of you who write that Hushovd didn't pull obviously need a trip to your optician.


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## Metro commuter (Apr 8, 2011)

Can't fault the tactics employed by Thor or Fabian - both did what you'd expect them to do. I am sure most of us have, in some race, been faced with the same choices. Very impressed with Fabian snagging 2nd in the way he did.

What I do not understand is if all Tomke had wrong with his bike was a shifting issue, wouldn't you ride out of the forest as best you could so the bike change was quicker? Might be a bit simplistic but he seemed to stand there a bloody long time and with radios I would ride until I could swap


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## eddya (Aug 7, 2009)

Boonen said in an interview on Sporza that his chain got stuck, and then again, and it was properly stuck after that, so he was forced to wait for the team car. One of his team mates whizzing past on Arenberg offered a wheel, but Tom declined saying his bike was buggered.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Makes more sense.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

*Wrong team Fabian!*

It might say Leoppard Trek on the jersey but for the last nine months everyone here called it *"Team Schlek"*.... and the Schleks were riding the Basque Tour last week with *"their"* team. However great Cancellara is I can't see him being more than third choice leader in a squad built to support the Schleks.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

baker921 said:


> It might say Leoppard Trek on the jersey but for the last nine months everyone here called it *"Team Schlek"*.... and the Schleks were riding the Basque Tour last week with *"their"* team. However great Cancellara is I can't see him being more than third choice leader in a squad built to support the Schleks.


There were several supposedly strong helpers for Cancellara, for some reason it just all fell apart. 
O'Grady, Klemme, Weylandt.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

ronderman said:


> Here are my thoughts now that I watched it on TV
> 
> 1. Van Summeren deserved the win
> 
> 2. Thor played it well too - on Fabian's wheel every time - pull through, sorry, I got a strong team mate upfront. That's bike racing.


1) Absolutely.

2) There always seems to be a great reason why Thor sucks wheels the whole time. I used to be a big Thor fan, but now you gotta hope he doesn't get his Roubaix dream unless he HTFU.

Huge kudos to FC for being tailed by the whole peloton all day and still having the single-minded determination to blast them time after time to get the best placing he could, even if it wasn't the win.



> "Everybody raced against me. The victory was not possible. This second place is like the victory to me. Today, I lost, but the others lost a bit more than me"


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

den bakker said:


> There were several supposedly strong helpers for Cancellara, for some reason it just all fell apart.
> O'Grady, Klemme, Weylandt.


I don't disagree but I watched the last 140kms live and don't recall seing a team mate! I don't think last week was much better either. There must be a problem here with the team or its management. the riders all lacked ability, form or *motivation*. I suspect Cancellara is (embarassingly) well paid and left to do his own thing in the classics. This is far short of being managed, nurtured and suppoted to win. We all love to cheer our heroes but this is a team sport and good management is a key ingredient for success.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't race, so I'm happy to have someone explain the tactics...

With about 40k to go, FC is driving and TH and another rider are in tow. I get why TH is riding wheel since he has JVS up the road. What I don't get is why FC decided to sit up and. Phil and Paul explained that FC wouldn't want to drag TH to the line only to be out-sprinted at the end. I see the logic in that, but FC demonstrated before (and after) that he could ride TH off his wheel if he wanted. By sitting up there, he allowed JVS's time gap to extend to a point where FC couldn't catch him (despite a great effort). I couldn't help but think if he hadn't turned off the gas and started anguing with team cars, he could have won.


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## Sylint (Jul 27, 2009)

Opus51569 said:


> I don't race, so I'm happy to have someone explain the tactics...
> 
> With about 40k to go, FC is driving and TH and another rider are in tow. I get why TH is riding wheel since he has JVS up the road. What I don't get is why FC decided to sit up and. Phil and Paul explained that FC wouldn't want to drag TH to the line only to be out-sprinted at the end. I see the logic in that, but FC demonstrated before (and after) that he could ride TH off his wheel if he wanted. By sitting up there, he allowed JVS's time gap to extend to a point where FC couldn't catch him (despite a great effort). I couldn't help but think if he hadn't turned off the gas and started anguing with team cars, he could have won.


I haven't re-watched that part yet, and I'm at work so I can't check, but if I remember correctly (and someone will correct me if I don't, I'm sure) at that initial Ballan/FC/Thor break-away the front group was still around 17ish strong and JVS hadn't taken off yet.

So even if he did tow Thor and Ballan up to that group, he still had plenty of folks to motor on by.

At that point in the race Garmin had JVS and another rider up in the initial break so Thor would have had plenty of support if FC towed him up there.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Fignon's Barber said:


> my point was that FC left riis for greener pastures, but in retrospect after the events of the last 2 weekends, it looks like they made a pretty good team in the past. riis is probably pretty satisfied to win 1/2 the flanders/roubaix double this year.


FC is a well marked man, it matters not what team he is one. you watch the guy who stomped your ass the previous year.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

the two races were incredibly different. ive been watching pro cycling afew years now and i still get confused with they way some things unfold. but here is how i saw things go in these two races:

at the ronde (flanders) cancellara was up ahead with another rider. the rider with him refused to work as he knew cancellera could smoke him. sticking on cancelleras wheel was the best option to stay fresh - make the strongest man do the work if he wants to win. this ended up slowing them down and allowed the chase to catch on. from there it was a different race. cancellara did attempt one final dig, and it almost paid off.

paris-roubiax saw group got away early and stayed away nearly the entire race. if you have a teammate in a break, you dont (usually) work to bridge up to them. this is where garmins tactic came into play. they had johan up the road, so thor didnt need to work. it was cancellaras race to lose, again. at one point you could see some heated discussions between cancellara and the garmin car. dont know what was said exactly, but it was probably along the lines of "make your man work if he wants to win!" "we have a man up the road, why should we pull you up there?"

bouncing back to the ronde, this is almost 180 from what we witnessed. while quickstep had chavanel up front, it looked like boonen tried to bait canacellara into chasing, and towing boonen up to his man. this would have created a 2-on-1 against cancellara. fabian attacked and dug deep when boonen was boxed in and bridged himself. once fabian met up with chavanel, the quick step rider sat on his wheel, basically saying, "i have a powerhouse back there who might get up here. you worked to get up, now you work to stay up here and keep them back." this allowed the chase group to get back on, but the other quick step rider (boonen) was not there. he was probably told not to work as he had a man in the break. 1 against 1 is better than 2 against 12.

seven days also brought a change in tactics for garmin. last week, after cancellara and chavanel were the lead duo, the director famously told his team to stop working. this made some sense at the time - dont burn matches this week as we have P-R next week. he basically told his team cancellara or chavanel were going to win and they should make the race a training ride. but the race wasnt over. had his riders stayed near the front, they could have latched back on when the chase caught the leaders. thor would have been the favorite if that had happened. but you cant win a race if you dont a dog in the fight. garmin stopped fighting last week and were grilled for it.



cda 455 said:


> Being a nOOB, I ask this question:
> 
> Did the PR win look similar to Tour of Flanders in regards to where FC was at the finish line and who beat him/won the race?
> 
> Both finishes looked very similar.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Sylint said:


> I haven't re-watched that part yet, and I'm at work so I can't check, but if I remember correctly (and someone will correct me if I don't, I'm sure) at that initial Ballan/FC/Thor break-away the front group was still around 17ish strong and JVS hadn't taken off yet.
> 
> So even if he did tow Thor and Ballan up to that group, he still had plenty of folks to motor on by.
> 
> At that point in the race Garmin had JVS and another rider up in the initial break so Thor would have had plenty of support if FC towed him up there.


That's a good point. I think you're right that JVS hadn't made his move yet.

I think I'm starting to figure it out. Let's see if this sounds plausible:

If FC tows TH up to the leaders, he knows the other Garmin riders there will work against him and help Thor make a move at the line.

If he sits up he can hope that some of his own teammates will catch up and possibly help to even the odds.

Sitting up is a calculated risk, though. Since Thor is the odds-on favorite for Garmin, FC was betting that no one else from that team would go off the front and try to get the victory.

He was basically damned if he did and damned if he didn't.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Opus51569 said:


> That's a good point. I think you're right that JVS hadn't made his move yet.
> 
> I think I'm starting to figure it out. Let's see if this sounds plausible:
> 
> ...


Sounds about right. Spartacus was out-manned and in his frustration he sat-up loseing precious seconds - in 20/20 hindsight, he should have chanced it - hit the turbo and attempt to ride Thor off his wheel - then try to TT it home like last year.

A hanging question though - where were Fabian's teammates while Garmin was massing up front? Last year, the REAL Saxo covered and protected Sparticus until he was ready to move with Boonen and Co. in tow - Saxo 2.0 was not able to do the same this year - where was "The Super Team"? They made Garmin look good - not an easy thing to do!

P.S. Kudos to VanSum for a great ride! :thumbsup:


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

LostViking said:


> "The Super Team"? They made Garmin look good - not an easy thing to do!


lolz.

the schleck team is built for the schlecks for the TdF. no denying it.

At least FC gets a fat check for his trouble.


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## Kneedragon (Jul 27, 2010)

Opus51569 said:


> I don't race, so I'm happy to have someone explain the tactics...
> 
> With about 40k to go, FC is driving and TH and another rider are in tow. I get why TH is riding wheel since he has JVS up the road. What I don't get is why FC decided to sit up and. Phil and Paul explained that FC wouldn't want to drag TH to the line only to be out-sprinted at the end. I see the logic in that, but FC demonstrated before (and after) that he could ride TH off his wheel if he wanted. By sitting up there, he allowed JVS's time gap to extend to a point where FC couldn't catch him (despite a great effort). I couldn't help but think if he hadn't turned off the gas and started anguing with team cars, he could have won.


Cancellara decided to sit up because:

1) He didn't want to waste energy bridging the gap to the breakaway all by himself, while towing Hushovd/Ballan/Flecha, who were also race favorites
2) If he tows Hushovd up to the leaders, Thor is a better sprinter and could potentially beat him
3) Out of Cancellara/Hushovd/Ballan/Flecha, only Garmin-Cervelo (Hushovd) had a man in the breakaway to help (JVS), thus giving them an advantage

Tactically, it was played out correctly by Fabian, because if he had pulled them all the way back to the leaders, it's possible he could have had nothing left at the end. Also Garmin played their cards perfectly too (obviously, they won!).

I think the biggest issue for Cancellara is that he didn't have enough support from his teammates, either by having one in the breakaway or having one with him in the group that could attack and force the others to chase.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*there were*

3 Le O pard riders up there earlier, but when it got to crunch time they were gone. 
Thor plus 2 support riders getting him to the velodrome in the lead group, game over. Thor is a sprinter, maybe not the fastest bunch sprinter in the world but faster than any of the other riders in the lead group.

Fabian played it as best he could. Garmin just had way better cards, pretty simple


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## mmcycle10 (Oct 7, 2010)

New to watching pro cycling. I agree with the general sentiments on here about why things played out the way they did yesterday. As a beginner racer myself, watching Cancellara smoke the lead group at the end after being in the saddle riding cobblestones and sucking dust for 6 hrs. was truly amazing to watch! But Thor kind of dissappointed me...I mean, I totally understand holding FC's wheel the way that he did, but at some point, if you want to win the race you have to go for it yourself, don't you? Maybe it just became a no win situation for both of those guys at that point in the race...

One other thing...I may have seen it wrong, but it looked to me like Thor pumped his fist in celebration as he crossed the line (in 8th place, a guy that was a legitmate favorite)...if so, surely he was just happy for his teammate winning, right?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

JohnHenry said:


> "the schleck team is built for the schlecks for the TdF."


Agreed - after being left without support in The Classics, Spartacus returns to bondage to serve the Schlecks during the Tours - hope his sacrifice is not in vain...


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Mosovich said:


> Nuyen's win was in style.. He was the smartest one.. . He knew he had no team support, conserved as much as he could and stuck it.. I mean, crap, that's racing.. Nuyen's team wasn't there.. He used his brain and won..


exactly. spoken like someone who races/has raced a bike. its a tough sport.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

32and3cross said:


> Your wrong Nick pulled through in the break not as much as FC but them he wasn't riding desperate like FC was so he did enough work to help the group stay clear of Boonen. He also chased back after at least one crash and made the correct splits so his win had styel its just wasn't a solo breakaway. Solo breaks are cool (hey its how I have gotten almost all my wins) but its cool to watch guys who aren't the strongest but are smart read a race well and win too.


I had to watch it again because of discussions here - Nuyens pulled for a total of 10 seconds. Plus a "fake" pull through one of the turns - not even pedaling. I wish there was a % split like they do in breakaways of who did the work for the final 3-4k, it would have been something like:
Cancellara: 70%, Chavanel: 28%, Nuyens 2%. 
Not that there is anything wrong with that, but Nuyens did NOT pull.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Fignon's Barber said:


> Great victory for Van Summeren, all the more impressive when you figure he had vaughters in his earpiece the last 10k telling him to sit up and save energy to sprint for 5th place .


hah! I was joking, but apparently not so far off. video interview with JV saying van summeren kept wanting to attack but JV said no, wait for the chasers to catch up. thank god for van summeren that he was persistent.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/video-vaughters-on-van-summeren-and-garmin-tactics-in-paris-roubaix


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## Sylint (Jul 27, 2009)

mmcycle10 said:


> but at some point, if you want to win the race you have to go for it yourself, don't you?


You don't chase down a teammate. And in the chase, possibly pull one of the strongest riders in the peloton with you.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Sylint said:


> why the hell would Thor pull?


in retrospect the Garmin tactic worked out well, but several of you seem to think that when Canellara, Ballan and Hushovd sat up, Van Summeren was already up the road, but that wasn't the case - Van Summeren and Quinziatto were actually slowing pace down when Guesdon tried to keep the pace up, according to cycling news report, and Van Summeren attacked only some 20+ min later. I think at the time it would have been a perfect strategy for Hushovd and Ballan to cooperate with Cancellara and close whatever remaining 20 sec to the front group. Then Hushovd would have two teammates in the group and Ballan would have Quinziatto and both would have a solid shot at victory. 

Now, I am happy for Van Summeren and this time it did work out for the best, but could anyone really guarantee that it would be Van Summeren, as opposed to, say, Gregory Rast or Lars Bak who would go solo and win? If that happened, and it could have easily happened, we would all be talking about BMC and Cervello blowing it again with their "prevent FC from winning by all costs" strategy.

If you are Fabian Cancellara, who once again, was obviously the strongest rider, I am not sure what else he could do. I do share his frustration of so many riders and teams sacrificing (stupidly, IMPO) their own chances just to prevent FC from winning. I guess he can take a consolation prize of being the most marked rider out there, but you can't fault him for any strategical mistake this time around.

I feel bad about QS many, many mishaps - without Chava and Boonen the race was a bit less animated, in my opinion. Somehow I doubt Boonen and Chavanel would be happy to sit up when the front group is 20 seconds away, and after FC did all the pull to get them there.


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## mmcycle10 (Oct 7, 2010)

> You don't chase down a teammate. And in the chase, possibly pull one of the strongest riders in the peloton with you.


I can see why FC wouldn't want to pull Thor all they way to the front. So Thor didn't pull b/c he wanted to protect his teammate and keep FC away from the front? I didn't think of it that way at the time it was happening, but it makes sense...good teammate if so!


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## Sylint (Jul 27, 2009)

55x11 said:


> in retrospect the Garmin tactic worked out well, but several of you seem to think that when Canellara, Ballan and Hushovd sat up, Van Summeren was already up the road, but that wasn't the case - Van Summeren and Quinziatto were actually slowing pace down when Guesdon tried to keep the pace up, according to cycling news report, and Van Summeren attacked only some 20+ min later. I think at the time it would have been a perfect strategy for Hushovd and Ballan to cooperate with Cancellara and close whatever remaining 20 sec to the front group. Then Hushovd would have two teammates in the group and Ballan would have Quinziatto and both would have a solid shot at victory.
> 
> 
> I feel bad about QS many, many mishaps - without Chava and Boonen the race was a bit less animated, in my opinion. Somehow I doubt Boonen and Chavanel would be happy to sit up when the front group is 20 seconds away, and after FC did all the pull to get them there.


 
Check a few of my other posts, I know that at this point JVS hadn't gone free yet. But either way, if you know you can outsprint FC and have help up in the break if you get there, why would you pull through? 


And yeah, I felt bad for QS


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Is FC the new Cavendish? I tend to LOL at how much riders are divided into good guys vs. bad guys. It's just a race.

It's critical to have support in a race, but PR is an entirely different beast. The narrow roads make team cars very inconvenient, which is often why some teams will place someone in a cobbled section with a wheel or two. Nonetheless, if the favorites are having bike problems, so are the team mates. Support is nice, but you can't rely on it in PR.


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## Sylint (Jul 27, 2009)

mmcycle10 said:


> I can see why FC wouldn't want to pull Thor all they way to the front. So Thor didn't pull b/c he wanted to protect his teammate and keep FC away from the front? I didn't think of it that way at the time it was happening, but it makes sense...good teammate if so!


 
this quote from you




mmcycle10 said:


> but at some point, if you want to win the race you have to go for it yourself, don't you? Maybe it just became a no win situation for both of those guys at that point in the race...


Led me to believe you meant later on in the race, not the initial FC/Ballan/Flecha/Thor break, and I was replying as such. Sorry if that was a bit confusing.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

As I said in the other thread: the fact remains that FC did drop Thor at some point; FC arrived and got 2nd, Thor was in the group behind that.

So, why is FC griping? He waited too long to attack Thor, and now he wants to blame anyone except himself.


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## PinarelloRider (Jul 31, 2009)

If you watch Thor's reaction after discussing with his team car after FC sits up... he is clearly upset. He pounded his bars emphatically at that point. My guess is that he wanted to take pulls to close the gap with the lead group, which was only 25 seconds up the road when FC first sat up. 

My guess is that he saw this as his last chance to win. The gap grew quickly to one minute 10 and soon after JVS attacked. I can't think of another reason he'd be that upset.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

I heard Thor was upset at the finish - I didn't see him bang his bars when talking to the team car, but I can I can see it happening. 

With that said, this is a A to B bike race, not a time trail. Fabian got caught out - it's all about who gets to the line first, not who puts out the most watts. Sure we all like watching one person decimate everyone, but I also like seeing a team play their cards. JVS is a two time top ten finisher - yea he DNF'd last year, but guess what, you don't let a 2 time top ten finisher that far up the road. Fabian lost it when he complained like a child to Garmin team car - I mean what was he expecting, Vaughters to say, you're right - Thor, pull!!!! You have a 2 time top ten finisher up the road who is your own team mater and he says he feels good, you DO NOT pull through - bike racing 101. 

My bet, Thor is off Garmin next year. Remember too, Saxo Bank had riders finish in the top 20, Le O Pard had none. That team was weak. Now Fabian knows what it's like to be George, well maybe not even as bad, George Hincapie was in shape, had a lousy team and got worked over by Domo and guess what, it was the lesser rider who won. Knaven is exactly similar to JVS, conversely Thor is no Meseuww.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I can't see Thor being too upset. Perhaps it was post race temper talking. I'm sure he would have loved to go for it, but you just don't chase down a team mate, especially when there's a strong chance of handing it to another team. I'm sure he'll simmer down in a day or two.

Cav isn't going to quit HTC Highroad because Gossy took MSR.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

had quick step had Chavanel and Boonen in the mix, they would have had Cancellara to help pull the break back together. That was the missing link. Hushovd and Ballan both had guys up the road, thus Cancellara had the responsibility to do all the work, like it or not.
Amstel Gold, and LBL are also awesome races. I'm looking forward to them!


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

spade2you said:


> I'm sure he would have loved to go for it, but you just don't chase down a team mate,


Everybody keeps on saying the same thing over and over again. If that was Heinrich Haussler or even Tyler Farrar up the road, then I would agree with "you don't chase down a team mate" theory. 
In a spring classics race, a team leader "bridges the gap" up to his team mate. Many times the team car will also order the domestique to fall back and help the team leader.
In yesterday's race, JVS happened to have the legs to go for the win. Congratulations to him and to Garmin for having their guys everywhere.

The biggest thumbs down goes to: Leopard-Trek. No team to speak of. I just hope that FC just signed a one year deal and will go to a team that may actually support him in 2012.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

MG537 said:


> Everybody keeps on saying the same thing over and over again. If that was Heinrich Haussler or even Tyler Farrar up the road, then I would agree with "you don't chase down a team mate" theory.
> In a spring classics race, a team leader "bridges the gap" up to his team mate. Many times the team car will also order the domestique to fall back and help the team leader.
> In yesterday's race, JVS happened to have the legs to go for the win. Congratulations to him and to Garmin for having their guys everywhere.


Neither Haussler or Farrar have the roubaix finishes that JVS has had. Not even close, they just had the Garmin press machine working for them. Never mind the pulls that JVS did while he was at Lotto - Leif Hoste lost and it had nothing to do with a team, I'm 6'4" and while not as low as JVS every guy 5"10" and under fights to get on my wheel - it's like motor pacing  

Also, one would be a fool to "bridge a gap" that is at a minute with Fabian in tow - you should have your head checked if you do that.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MG537 said:


> Everybody keeps on saying the same thing over and over again. If that was Heinrich Haussler or even Tyler Farrar up the road, then I would agree with "you don't chase down a team mate" theory.
> In a spring classics race, a team leader "bridges the gap" up to his team mate. Many times the team car will also order the domestique to fall back and help the team leader.
> In yesterday's race, JVS happened to have the legs to go for the win. Congratulations to him and to Garmin for having their guys everywhere.
> 
> The biggest thumbs down goes to: Leopard-Trek. No team to speak of. I just hope that FC just signed a one year deal and will go to a team that may actually support him in 2012.


Agreed, but I think _at the time_ FC and Thor didn't quite appreciate what was going on and most of the anger was in the moment. After shower, a little rest, and a few brews, I'm sure they were all fine and cooled off.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

ronderman said:


> Neither Haussler or Farrar have the roubaix finishes that JVS has had. Not even close, they just had the Garmin press machine working for them. Never mind the pulls that JVS did while he was at Lotto - Leif Hoste lost and it had nothing to do with a team, I'm 6'4" and while not as low as JVS every guy 5"10" and under fights to get on my wheel - it's like motor pacing
> 
> Also, one would be a fool to "bridge a gap" that is at a minute with Fabian in tow - you should have your head checked if you do that.


I'm not talking about the one minute gap there Mr. rolleyes. It was a 20 sec. gap that Fabian had done all the work for. At that minute he looked spent and neither Ballan nor Hushovd did anything. Not even try to attack to see what state he's in. If that was Boonen instead of Hushovd, you can bet your bottom $ that he would've bridged up to his domestique.


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

Sylint said:


> You don't chase down a teammate. And in the chase, possibly pull one of the strongest riders in the peloton with you.


No but a world champion is supposed to be able to attack without pulling the other riders with him. In my opinion, Thor should have at least tried, then stopped the attack if Cance and Ballan were on his rear wheel. But he didn't even tried.

But it is easier to say than done. He probably didn't have the legs as Cancellara managed to escape from them in the end.


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## majura (Apr 21, 2007)

Here's a video (can't embed) of a poor Team Sky rider whose Prologo saddle got fed up with the cobbles, so it got off and waited for the sag wagon.


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## captain stubbing (Mar 30, 2011)

to me it looked like ballan and hushovd were mighty pissed when fabian sat up, looked as if ballan in particular was trying to get fabian going again.

not sure about garmin's tactics about not chasing down the leading group, after cancellara sat up.....didn't they then put another garmin rider on front of the hushovd, cancellara, ballan group in another attempt to get back the leading group?? 

there goes the theory that Thor didn't pull because JVS was in the lead group.....one of what a dozen in teh breakaway, hardly great odds for a garmin victory at that stage. could understand it if JVS was one of 2 or 3 breakaway riders.

at the end of the day, Thor was never in a million years going to beat cancellara if he had to share the work.....that was the only way he was ever going to win.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

MG537 said:


> I'm not talking about the one minute gap there Mr. rolleyes. It was a 20 sec. gap that Fabian had done all the work for. At that minute he looked spent and neither Ballan nor Hushovd did anything. Not even try to attack to see what state he's in. If that was Boonen instead of Hushovd, you can bet your bottom $ that he would've bridged up to his domestique.


Again, you don't bring along a guy that can clearly beat you. You ride along, but you don't contribute. Doesn't matter if it's 20 seconds or 20 minutes - Fabian can clearly beat the snot out of Thor - didn't he drop him in the end - yea, he did.

Could he have tried one attack? Sure, but it sure looked like he was working to stay on his wheel - and like I said, in the end he was dropped. You can't say that about Boonen either, sure the odds are better, but I've never seen Garmin be one to take the lead and Boonen is a 3 time winner who finished Flanders well ahead of any Garmin rider.


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

55x11 said:


> in retrospect the Garmin tactic worked out well, but several of you seem to think that when Canellara, Ballan and Hushovd sat up, Van Summeren was already up the road, but that wasn't the case - Van Summeren and Quinziatto were actually slowing pace down when Guesdon tried to keep the pace up, according to cycling news report, and Van Summeren attacked only some 20+ min later. I think at the time it would have been a perfect strategy for Hushovd and Ballan to cooperate with Cancellara and close whatever remaining 20 sec to the front group. Then Hushovd would have two teammates in the group and Ballan would have Quinziatto and both would have a solid shot at victory.
> 
> Now, I am happy for Van Summeren and this time it did work out for the best, but could anyone really guarantee that it would be Van Summeren, as opposed to, say, Gregory Rast or Lars Bak who would go solo and win? If that happened, and it could have easily happened, we would all be talking about BMC and Cervello blowing it again with their "prevent FC from winning by all costs" strategy.
> 
> ...


+1

The gap to the leaders was not very big. I was watching and thinking the whole time that the winner was going to come from the Cancellara/Hushovd/Ballan/Flecha group. If those guys turned it up and/or worked together at all, they would have caught the leaders. I have to believe that Hushovd was still viewed as Garmin's chosen one at that point, regardless of Van Summeran ahead.

But, clearly Cancellara was the strongest. When he turned on the gas he just plain dropped Flecha. Hushovd and Ballan were probably just hangin on to Fabian when he jumped. It did seem a bit douchey that Cancellara led for sooo long with nary a single pull from Hushovd or Ballan. But Hushovd at least had a good excuse in having a teammate up the road.

There was a point on a cobbled section after Cancellara had sat up for awhile where he turned the gas on full again, but the frickin motos totally got in the way and took the steam out of that effort. I could totally see why Cancellara was frustrated. So, he chose to wait until very late (clearly too late) to make a desparate effort to bridge to Van Summeran.

Van Summeran had some pretty good legs on the day obviously. Kudos to him. Maybe Cancellara could have won if he hadn't sat up and instead dragged Hushovd and Ballan all the way to the front. But, it's completely understandable why he didn't want to do that given Thor's sprint.

I think it would have been better for Cancellara if Boonen had been able to stay in it. Boonen would have attacked or pulled in a small break. Anyway, it was a good race. It's amazing that the gap to the leaders in 230 km was never more than 1 1/2 to 2 minutes.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

GearDaddy said:


> There was a point on a cobbled section after Cancellara had sat up for awhile where he turned the gas on full again, but the frickin motos totally got in the way and took the steam out of that effort.


You might want to search out some on-line coverage that shows an overhead shot of that. From the overhead view, you can see the motos were on the far right of the road and just ahead of them was a group of riders in the center. When Cancellera accelerated, he went on the far right of the road to stay in the draft of the motorcycles. At the same time, the riders in the center moved right which didn't leave enough room for the moto to pass. As Cancellera caught up the the moto, he waited too long and couldn't swing far enough left to go around both the moto and the riders now right next to it. Had Cancellera not tried to draft the motorcycle so long, he could have swung left earlier to get around everything. This doesn't show from the road view because the picture isn't wide enough to capture the riders on the left.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Everybody should watch the Vaughters interview on cyclingnews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/video-vaughters-on-van-summeren-and-garmin-tactics-in-paris-roubaix

Apparently, Vaughters did want the break to get caught by Fabian and Thor... he even (says) he told Fabian that Garmin was dropping a guy back to help with the chase.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Here's another thought: Everyone says "Fabian C. chose the wrong team. He made a poor decision. He would have won with his old team...etc etc" 

But isn't the real goal of a professional cyclist to make the most money for himself? 

It's not all about the win for the team, but it's more about 'maximizing your own personal earning power'. FC is not hurting his 'personal standings' his future contracts his "asking price" by showing his power and ability as a 'poorly-supported' rider on a weaker team. On the contrary, his 'standing' his "stock exchange" price, that has probably gone up...

Now, if you are a "Worker-Bee", a domestique, being on a winning team, that will certainly enhance your future earning power as a pro cyclist. So choosing a good strong team is very important..You might even go with a slightly lower yearly wage in order to be on a winning Grand Tour team, thereby enhancing your 'resume' , your worth at your next contract negotiation.

FC, on the other hand, he can (and probably did) take the best money up front, he went with the best offer and winning for the team may be his secondary goal.

Ya think he'll get a lesser offer next year because Lep-Trek didn't get him a couple of team-wins? Any team with the budger for the fastest guy around, they will still be looking at FC himself, big-Euro stacks in hand.... his Lep-Trek team's winning record doesn't count there...(but I think that team's own respect will go up during the GTs later on)

Yes, he'd probably rather have won...but he gets paid just as much this year for the second place finish, and he's not losing any respect by having to do everything for himself.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

Gnarly 928 said:


> But isn't the real goal of a professional cyclist to make the most money for himself?


If you put it like that, sure. However, I think like most things it's not easy.

One year, yes, it wont hurt, but if teams can show they can isolate him and take the win - then teams wont want to pay for him. Yea a rider wants to make money, but a team HAS TO win or there is no sponsor money. Team shave tons of pressure to perform and yea some time out front gets you sponsor exposure but the win, regardless if you show your face at the very end, like Saxo in Flanders - the win gets way, way more exposure.

Now since we're all speculating and this is the internet, I will offer this - you think Hincapie, now at the twilight of his career, thinks it was wise decision to stay with Postal, ride for Lance, get paid well, not have too much pressure, but little to no support for the classics. Yea, I think he might be regretting that one. I'm sure he wished he pulled a Chavenel - moved to a different team, got better support and better results even if it meant less pay.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

Creakyknees said:


> Everybody should watch the Vaughters interview on cyclingnews:
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/video-vaughters-on-van-summeren-and-garmin-tactics-in-paris-roubaix
> 
> Apparently, Vaughters did want the break to get caught by Fabian and Thor... he even (says) he told Fabian that Garmin was dropping a guy back to help with the chase.


I think he was saying he had another rider coming up, not falling back, on Fabian and crew - and even thought he said "Thor could work" doesn't mean he would have. The other Garmin rider would have, just like he had been previously. 

I think FC was right to be pissed, but that is bike racing, Champs get marked - plain and simple.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

GearDaddy said:


> +1
> 
> I think it would have been better for Cancellara if Boonen had been able to stay in it. Boonen would have attacked or pulled in a small break. Anyway, it was a good race. It's amazing that the gap to the leaders in 230 km was never more than 1 1/2 to 2 minutes.


an excellent point! I was thinking the same thing. Cancellara would have benefited from having someone with less parasitic style of riding - like Boonen or even Chavanel.


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

Creakyknees said:


> Apparently, Vaughters did want the break to get caught by Fabian and Thor... he even (says) he told Fabian that Garmin was dropping a guy back to help with the chase.


Of course he wanted the break to get caught. If you were DS, wouldn't you want Thor and JVS (and for a while another Garmin dude) at the front of the race? I'd like those odds even if FC was up there too.

And you know FC was thinking the *same* thing. FC waited as long as he could then did all he could.

That's the thing about bike racing -- once in a while it's the strongest rider, often it's the strongest team, and even more often, it's just a strong team that get the right circumstances and is able to make the most of them. 

That's what happened Sunday.

Shoot, if Boonen and Pozzato and what's his face had been in the mix late, then they might have worked to drive the pace. Then we would have had the hard man showdown at the end.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Double post.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

_Cancellara would have benefited from having someone with less parasitic style of riding - like Boonen or even Chavanel._

Chavanel looked pretty "parasitic" in De Ronde.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

majura said:


> Here's a video (can't embed) of a poor Team Sky rider whose Prologo saddle got fed up with the cobbles, so it got off and waited for the sag wagon.


Wow  !

I bet his legs were on fire!


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Gripped said:


> Of course he wanted the break to get caught. If you were DS, wouldn't you want Thor and JVS (and for a while another Garmin dude) at the front of the race? I'd like those odds even if FC was up there too.
> 
> And you know FC was thinking the *same* thing. FC waited as long as he could then did all he could.
> 
> ...


It's pretty obvious that Thor was the primary plan. Once it looked like the Cancellara group wouldn't catch the break the plan changed. 

After watching the race twice now, I don't know what was more impressive; Garmin's tactics, or the fact that they had such good control of the race and so many strong riders in great positions impose their will even with Hammond out of the race and Haussler being a non-factor.

Cancellara's attacks were pretty mind blowing as well. In hindsight he should have never stopped chasing. I think he could have won if he got up to the break. There was no way that even Hushovd would have stayed on his wheel.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

The Tedinator said:


> _Cancellara would have benefited from having someone with less parasitic style of riding - like Boonen or even Chavanel._
> 
> Chavanel looked pretty "parasitic" in De Ronde.


Calling those guys parasitic is the stuff of a non-sensical hater. If you listen to the people on this board, the difference between good tactics and bad tactics is whether or not they like the rider employing them.

As a smart poster already pointed out here, when you don't have the strongest rider it's tactically to sound to stick your best guy on the wheel of the strongest guy. And if you don't want to chase then you sacrifice a rider or two and place them in the break. 

If this were Mapei or Domo Farm Frites then the irrational haters would be singing the praises. But since it's Garmin and a few people have their manhood offended by JV's awful sideburns they lose their minds and come up with ridiculous arguments.

Just imagine how loudly the haters would have howled if Thor had chased and cost the team their first Monument. I would have been howling too. But the haters would have you believe that that is exactly what should have happened. 

I actual have my doubts that some of these people actually watched the race to you the truth.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

A beautiful win for a deserving cyclist. Chapeau, Johann!


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