# Treks Response....



## Li432Paul (Jul 31, 2010)

I purchased a special order 2011 Madone 5.1 on Aug 16th from my local bike shop, then I read about the BB90 issues on this forum. I told the bike shop to wait and not build the bike. The bike is still in the packing box at the bike shop. What are your opinions?? I posted a question/complaint on Treks Facebook page.....this is the email reply from Trek....


Hello,

We saw your review of the Madone 5.1 on our site and wanted to check in about the BB problems you’ve been having and offer to help. We’re always trying to improve our bikes, and if you’re able to give us more info about the issue we’d like to find a solution. Thanks,



Andrew Rosch

Trek Bicycle

Marketing Communications Assistant

O: 1.920.478.2191 ext.12979

M: 1.608.512.2122


Sent: 9/16/2011 8:49:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Re: Madone BB90 issues


Andrew
Thank you very much for your reply. I recently purchased a new special order 2011 Madone 5.1 but have not yet picked the bike up from the local bike shop. The bike is still packed in the shipping box. I am very concerned of what I have researched online. It seems that numerous Trek madone's with the new BB90 bottom bracket design have been having serious issues with the intergrated bearing sockets (loose bearings) to the point of permanent frame damage. I have not heard of a permanent long term fix for this issue, only temporary solutions. I'm afraid to take delivery of the 2011 Madone 5.1 until Trek has a permanent long term fix. I do not want to get stuck with a $3k lemon. I am a long term Trek customer since 1996 and have purchased many Trek bikes in the past and really do not want to look elsewhere for another brand bike.

Paul

Hello Paul,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. While we appreciate the concern and can understand the hesitation based on the experiences some people have had, the issue is not something that effects every frame. I want to assure you that the bottom bracket is a very reinforced area, and a loose bearing would not cause permanent damage to the frame. I would not have any hesitations having this built up, as if you do come across any issues they would undoubtedly be something that we would be able to fix with your local dealer, as the frame would of course be backed by the lifetime warranty. Thanks for reaching out to us,





Andrew Rosch

Trek Bicycle

Marketing Communications Assistant

O: 1.920.478.2191 ext.12979

M: 1.608.512.2122


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## dougrocky123 (Apr 12, 2006)

*New 5.2*

I'm picking up my new 2012 5.2 tonight. I also have read this forum and the problems some are having. I decided to go forward with my purchase and hope that I will get a good frame,build,and service from Trek and my dealer in case of problems.See you on the road!


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

I have a 2011 5.2 and absolutely think its a great bike. I'm on my third set of bontrager race x lite wheels due to cracked rims and Bontrager which is owned by Trek has stood by the warranty no questions asked and replaced the rear wheel every time. Trek has a great warranty program. I read where Scott only warranties the frame for two years. Trek is lifetime.


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## Milk-Bone (Jul 10, 2011)

I have to agree, I wouldn't worry about it. You're playing the odds with any product. Sure, you might get a lemon, but not buying the bike for the reasons you mention is like not going outside because an asteroid will slam into the earth one day. Buy the bike and enjoy it. Keep a watchful eye on it and document any problem if they should arise. Be polite but forceful with the LBS if they try to give you the run-around. Trek will stand behind the product so buy and enjoy. I really enjoy my Madone and am very happy I got it. Might pick up another next spring.


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## hamsey (Aug 16, 2010)

I would make sure that the LBS has a solid relationship with Trek. I had the same concerns about ordering a 2011 project one. LBS has a solid relationship with Trek in case I developed problems (none) but I feel better knowing that if something did pop up it would be taken care of.


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## Li432Paul (Jul 31, 2010)

I guess I'll take the madone and hope for the best.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

I am pretty sure they have fixed the loose bearing issue in 2011. They made the non drive side mold tighter than it used to be. The only problem I have had is the bearings have a tendency to wear out fairly often which is pretty simple $25.00 change out that can be done in less than 10 minutes. I have changed mine out several times and the bearings still fit in the frame as snug as new.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I don't like Trek anymore, but I will say this about them...I've never heard a complaint about them failing or screwing a customer under the lifetime frame replacement provisions. So I would go ahead with the build, and if by some slim remote chance the problem comes up, rest assured Trek will take care of you.


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## Li432Paul (Jul 31, 2010)

Froze....you say that you don't like trek anymore, may I ask why?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Li432Paul said:


> Froze....you say that you don't like trek anymore, may I ask why?


Don't pay any attention to me, I'm a radical. I don't like Trek anymore because they sent the majority of their production to China, and that's why everyone thinks I'm a radical. I understand the blah blah blah of being competitive and they needed to that but I disagree, I think they could have found a workable solution around the problem and kept jobs here where their roots are. But again, I'm a radical for thinking this way. It's the same reason why I do my best, though not always possible, not to buy anything marked made in China. But again, I'm a radical so don't pay any attention to me.

I forgot to add, that I find most products made in China to be inferior with any product made anywhere else, so it stands to reason that a bike made in China would be inferior to a bike made here, or Japan, or Europe. But again just roll your eyeballs at me and call me nuts.

I've had three three Treks over the years, the first one was a TX900 I bought in 76, and then a 79 or 80 412, and the one I still have a 84 660 and they were all great American made bikes.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

froze said:


> Don't pay any attention to me, I'm a radical. I don't like Trek anymore because they sent the majority of their production to China, and that's why everyone thinks I'm a radical. I understand the blah blah blah of being competitive and they needed to that but I disagree, I think they could have found a workable solution around the problem and kept jobs here where their roots are. But again, I'm a radical for thinking this way. It's the same reason why I do my best, though not always possible, not to buy anything marked made in China. But again, I'm a radical so don't pay any attention to me.
> 
> I forgot to add, that I find most products made in China to be inferior with any product made anywhere else, so it stands to reason that a bike made in China would be inferior to a bike made here, or Japan, or Europe. But again just roll your eyeballs at me and call me nuts.
> 
> I've had three three Treks over the years, the first one was a TX900 I bought in 76, and then a 79 or 80 412, and the one I still have a 84 660 and they were all great American made bikes.



You are no radical in my book, I agree totally with you. I have been a long time Trek customer myself because they have always backed their product up for me and I have such an excellent experience with my dealer.. My current frame is a 6 series which is still made in the USA. However, I am seriously considering that my next bike or frame purchase will come from elsewhere due to their movement of production to low cost foreign sites. I will not pay thousands of dollars to support cheap foreign labor that we have no ability to compete with unless we continue the downard progression of our standard of living until we are a nation of super poor and super rich like those countries that some say we must compete with. This country has been brainwashed into believing the constant mantra of the those on Wall Street, the media, and the ignorant politicians who just spew the same old garbage about being competitive. All of these people are either bought off or have direct personal interests in corporate domination and the movement of jobs to cheap locations. I have no problem with competing on a fair and level playing field but take issue in competing with a country such as China that is under communist control and expolits its citizens and labor force as it does. We can not compete with this kind of arrangement unless our citizens are reduced to poverty and that means you and I both. I always snicker a little when the ignorant bought off politicians try to say that the key to our future ability to compete is that we need a better educated population. While true an educated population will enable us to compete in some areas, is anyone actually stupid enough to believe that this is what is costing us in job losses to China? Give me a freaking break.

I have a clue to everyone, it does matter where it is made and who made it. This is why we are in this rat hole of an economy with no hope of improvement for a very long time. This country has become complacent and foolish in allowing its economic powerhouse to be destroyed over the last few decades." As long as I got mine", has ruled for too long and now it is biting us in the ass. I am afraid that we will not realize what we have lost until it is totally gone and will require great pain and bloodshed to attempt to get it back. 

Sorry about the off topic rant, I guess I am just in a pissy mood from being lied to all the time by those in power and influence.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tellico climber said:


> You are no radical in my book, I agree totally with you. I have been a long time Trek customer myself because they have always backed their product up for me and I have such an excellent experience with my dealer.. My current frame is a 6 series which is still made in the USA. However, I am seriously considering that my next bike or frame purchase will come from elsewhere due to their movement of production to low cost foreign sites. I will not pay thousands of dollars to support cheap foreign labor that we have no ability to compete with unless we continue the downard progression of our standard of living until we are a nation of super poor and super rich like those countries that some say we must compete with. This country has been brainwashed into believing the constant mantra of the those on Wall Street, the media, and the ignorant politicians who just spew the same old garbage about being competitive. All of these people are either bought off or have direct personal interests in corporate domination and the movement of jobs to cheap locations. I have no problem with competing on a fair and level playing field but take issue in competing with a country such as China that is under communist control and expolits its citizens and labor force as it does. We can not compete with this kind of arrangement unless our citizens are reduced to poverty and that means you and I both. I always snicker a little when the ignorant bought off politicians try to say that the key to our future ability to compete is that we need a better educated population. While true an educated population will enable us to compete in some areas, is anyone actually stupid enough to believe that this is what is costing us in job losses to China? Give me a freaking break.
> 
> I have a clue to everyone, it does matter where it is made and who made it. This is why we are in this rat hole of an economy with no hope of improvement for a very long time. This country has become complacent and foolish in allowing its economic powerhouse to be destroyed over the last few decades." As long as I got mine", has ruled for too long and now it is biting us in the ass. I am afraid that we will not realize what we have lost until it is totally gone and will require great pain and bloodshed to attempt to get it back.
> 
> Sorry about the off topic rant, I guess I am just in a pissy mood from being lied to all the time by those in power and influence.



Your thoughts are entirely shared with mine!!! So far in the political forum on this site, I'm the nut job for thinking like this!! There is a running gun battle going on this moment on a post titled: "More About Herman Cain"; and another one entitled: "Ron Paul: What Am I Missing?" Do a search for these if you want to jump into the fray. My posts have been all about the economic crisis we're facing, and I'm getting chewed and spit out for even hinting that the US is in trouble. And deep economic trouble always brings war and what follows war is anyones guess.

So I'm pissed too because no body seems to get it, or are so brainwashed they can't get it, or they just don't care to get it.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

By the way, there are still a lot of bicycles built in America, and other westernized countries. I don't what kind of bike material you want nor the price but there are other choices besides Trek, Cannondale, and a slew of other LBS boutique bikes coming out of China. I don't even care too much if I bought a bike made in Taiwan, at least I know who side their on!!


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

froze said:


> By the way, there are still a lot of bicycles built in America, and other westernized countries. I don't what kind of bike material you want nor the price but there are other choices besides Trek, Cannondale, and a slew of other LBS boutique bikes coming out of China. I don't even care too much if I bought a bike made in Taiwan, at least I know who side their on!!


I am considering Lynskey for my future purchase which is made right here in Tennessee as I am sure you are probably aware. Looking at the 440 frameset. I just wish people would wake up and realize how we are being run down the rat hole in this country and also in most of Western Europe for that matter. I always avoid the political forum here as it is a lost cause. It only makes me angry and my wife then gets annoyed with me. I believe people will wake up someday but it will get much worse before that happens to a fuller extent. I usually do not comment on this forum in a political manner because i just want to enjoy talking about bikes with other cyclists regardless of their political views but when I saw your post I just had to let you know that I feel the same.


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## atwabn (Jun 13, 2011)

all of the SSL will always be built in the USA because of the hexSL carbon which can only be exported to NATO countries


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tellico climber said:


> I am considering Lynskey for my future purchase which is made right here in Tennessee as I am sure you are probably aware. Looking at the 440 frameset. I just wish people would wake up and realize how we are being run down the rat hole in this country and also in most of Western Europe for that matter. I always avoid the political forum here as it is a lost cause. It only makes me angry and my wife then gets annoyed with me. I believe people will wake up someday but it will get much worse before that happens to a fuller extent. I usually do not comment on this forum in a political manner because i just want to enjoy talking about bikes with other cyclists regardless of their political views but when I saw your post I just had to let you know that I feel the same.



Thanks for letting me know how you feel, because I was feeling rather lonely around here!!!! 

I understand how you feel about the political forum, I go in spurts, I'll comment for short while then give up and not go back to for a long time, then go back again. I'm a yo yo! But I spend most of my time away from it. 

Those Lynskey bikes are really sweet bikes. I hope you get the 440. I had a 440 once but it was in a Dodge Charger...ok, bad attemt at humor, but that Dodge 440 will go a lot faster then a Lynskey 440.


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## Road Hazard (Feb 5, 2011)

Bottom line for me is, the carbon - steel bearing interface is a bad idea. 

This is what my bb looks like after 4600 miles. This bike is not ridden in the rain (got caught in drizzling weather a few times but that's the exception). 

I noticed play in my crankset, thought it was a bad non-drive side bearing, and found this.

I'm taking it into the LBS tomorrow. If Trek doesn't warranty this it's the last Trek product I buy. Been looking at the Moots website quite a bit...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Road Hazard said:


> Bottom line for me is, the carbon - steel bearing interface is a bad idea.
> 
> This is what my bb looks like after 4600 miles. This bike is not ridden in the rain (got caught in drizzling weather a few times but that's the exception).
> 
> ...


Please let us know the outcome to this awful situation with your bike. I hope Trek takes care of you. Call me weird but I will never buy a CF bike due to odd problems, and one of those problems is what your experiencing. I have a steel bike with over 150,000 miles on it and the bottom bracket looks way far better then yours after only 4600 miles. 

Give me Steel or give me TI but you can keep the rest.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

Road Hazard, that does look really bad. It looks to me like that frame is gone. I get a little uneasy every time I press new bearings into the BB shell. I am always concerned that even with my best effort that I might be pressing them in slightly off which might result in deformation of the shell. What year model is your bike? I know deformation of the shell was a problem in the frames made before the 2011 model when they slightly decreased the non drive side shell. From what I understand before 2011, the fit on the non drive side was not tight enough and sometimes play would develop which would ruin shell on that side over time. It looks like this might be what has happened to you. Earlier models one could just press the non drive side bearings in by hand, however I have noticed that in my 2011 model I have to press it in with my homemade bearing press due to the tight fit. The forces exerted on the non drive side apparently needed a tighter fit in the bearings. Good luck, I suspect Trek will send you a new frame unless they feel strongly that incorrect bearing installation done outside of them or your bikeshop caused the problem. Please let us know the outcome, I would like to know.


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## Road Hazard (Feb 5, 2011)

My LBS said the picture you see is normal. I'm trying to get Trek's opinion but I cannot find an email address on the website, only a form that does not allow for attachments. 

I'll let you know if this is standard Trek issue or if there is a problem with my bike.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Road Hazard said:


> My LBS said the picture you see is normal. I'm trying to get Trek's opinion but I cannot find an email address on the website, only a form that does not allow for attachments.
> 
> I'll let you know if this is standard Trek issue or if there is a problem with my bike.


The LBS? If you bought the bike from that LBS and their a dealer for Trek then they should have the Trek marketing or factory rep come in to look at the BB. If you think it's not right and your having a problem, then insist on having a Trek rep look at it, then have the Trek rep state in writing that there's nothing wrong with the BB after close inspection, that way in case there is something wrong and you find out later the hard way then Trek can be held responsible.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

Road Hazard said:


> My LBS said the picture you see is normal. I'm trying to get Trek's opinion but I cannot find an email address on the website, only a form that does not allow for attachments.
> 
> I'll let you know if this is standard Trek issue or if there is a problem with my bike.


Mine does not look like that. It is smooth all the way around. Do to bearings fit tightly without any rocking? I would be concerned that over time the bearing outer race would begin to rock up against the gouged out areas of the shell and wear it even more. Perhaps the picture makes it look worse than it actually is? I would take it up with Trek if the LBS does not want to follow up with them.


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## okiefo (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm looking at your photo and trying to figure out what the issue is.. is there a pit or chunk of material missing at approx. the "8 o-clock" position in the bearing seat???


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## Road Hazard (Feb 5, 2011)

Yea, there are fairly dramatic pits missing at 9 o'clock and about 7 o'clock. Those pits extend to the outer edge of the BB. There is also wear between those points, looks like abrasion. 

It's hard to photograph carbon, the flash against the materials washes out everything. I got the photo using a flashlight from the side as lighting.

There was movement in the cranks. Not laterally but "angular" movement. My LBS torqued down my SRAM cranks and now there is no movement but I am worried that this will get worse. There was no movement for the first 4500 miles, why did it start? The bolt might have loosened up, or the BB might be failing, we'll see.

Obviously it's not a life or death situation but for the money I paid for this bike, I am pissed that I have to now go for a second opinion, maybe take the bike in multiple times to have a Trek rep look at it, etc. For this privilege I could have bought a $500 frame.

I emailed Trek and all I can say is that if it were my company I would be embarrassed if the reply were made public.

I'm going to document the issue with photos and ride the bike and see what happens. 

I've asked Trek if they agree that they sell bikes that come out of the mold as you see in the pic. I'll let you know what they say.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

I am almost positive you are going to have problems with this in the future. I believe that as time goes by you will not be able to eliminate the play no matter how hard you torque the crank bolt down. I would demand immediate resolution rather than taking the wait and see approach. Unless you did something to damage the mold then this is without a doubt a defect. The warranty states it covers all defects in workmanship and this definately qualifies if you have not damaged the mold yourself which I assume you have not. Good luck, I hope you get it resolved.


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## IBOHUNT (Oct 10, 2011)

I'll agree that I try not to purchase anything made in China. As I am about to purchase my first road bike what choices do I have? I was looking at the trek 2.1 or 1.5. Anything made in the United States that is comparable I'd be willing to look at.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

IBOHUNT said:


> I'll agree that I try not to purchase anything made in China. As I am about to purchase my first road bike what choices do I have? I was looking at the trek 2.1 or 1.5. Anything made in the United States that is comparable I'd be willing to look at.


Unfortunately not many unless you get to the higher line bikes, even all the Treks are made overseas except for the 6 series now. Not sure what your budget is but check out Lynskey. Right now they are running a special where you can get a Cooper complete with 105 for about $2300 or a R230 for $2700. Both are good titanium bikes made here in Tennessee. If I were buying right now I would opt for the 440 but it is expensive for a 1st road bike. The R230 I think would be an excellent bike. The way I look at it, you can spend $1500 on an mass produced Tiawanese or Chinese made frame or mid $2500s on great Titanium framed bike that also supports our local work force. This is not to mention that most likely you would enjoy the Lynskey more and have more long term pride in ownership.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

IBOHUNT said:


> I'll agree that I try not to purchase anything made in China. As I am about to purchase my first road bike what choices do I have? I was looking at the trek 2.1 or 1.5. Anything made in the United States that is comparable I'd be willing to look at.


Find a really nice barely used bike, a lot of those bikes are all over Craigslist, E-Bay, even some LBS's sell used bikes, and a lot of those nice bikes were not made in China. A lot of people go out and buy expensive bikes for their first bike thinking their going to ride a lot but after 2 or 3 months of riding they find out it's too much time, work and effort involved or they decide to really upgrade and those bikes become garage art till they decide to sell it. Otherwise to find a new bike made in America or Europe it's going to set you back quite a bit. Just a thought. 

Maybe Trek, once they decide they have to replace the frame, will allow you to upgrade the frame to a far better frame just pay the difference. But your not going to find anything made in America fully equipped for the price of a 2.1 or 1.5.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Most all mid to high end road bikes (Trek, Specialized, etc.) made offshore are made in Taiwan, not China if that discinction makes any difference to you.


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## Milk-Bone (Jul 10, 2011)

davidka said:


> Most all mid to high end road bikes (Trek, Specialized, etc.) made offshore are made in Taiwan, not China if that discinction makes any difference to you.


I'm not sure if you realise this, but Taiwan is a Republic of China. So, it is China for all intent and purposes.

Government Information Office, Republic of China (Taiwan)


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Milk-Bone said:


> I'm not sure if you realise this, but Taiwan is a Republic of China. So, it is China for all intent and purposes.
> 
> Government Information Office, Republic of China (Taiwan)


While techincally you're right, but the quality control coming out of Taiwan is far better then mainland China. Taiwan's work ethic is more westernized while China's is more communistic. Just look at all the dangerious recalls that the media has reported on coming from China and there has been very little coming out of Taiwan. Taiwan will voluntarily recall their products, while China has to be "urged".


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Milk-Bone said:


> I'm not sure if you realise this, but Taiwan is a Republic of China. So, it is China for all intent and purposes.
> 
> Government Information Office, Republic of China (Taiwan)


In terms of higher end manufacturing capability and making bicycles, Taiwan is not the same as China.

China's good at copying things a few years behind, Taiwan is driving technology for carbon frame produciton.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

If the best unused example is $2200 with parts typically found on bikes up to half the price, it's really hard to say 'only buy US bikes'

Trek still makes more bikes in the US than *all other major brands combined*


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

MarvinK said:


> If the best unused example is $2200 with parts typically found on bikes up to half the price, it's really hard to say 'only buy US bikes'
> 
> Trek still makes more bikes in the US than *all other major brands combined*


This is true, but at what cost? $3,500 minimum just for the frame and fork, complete was $5,000 to get a made in the USA Trek bicycle? I'm not sure, but I did a web search and the lowest cost bike I could find made by Trek in America was the Madone 6.5 series, I checked the 5.9 but nothing came up as to where it was made. For that cost I would much rather buy a Lynskey titanium bicycle made in America then some plastic bike if I was looking for a lightweight exotic racing bicycle. Sorry, but that's my personal opinion.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

You can do a Madone 6 Project One, pick your own paint color and parts and get it for <$4000 w/Rival and some pretty boring wheels. The 5-series are made in Taiwan starting this year. It's still real expensive. It was only a few years ago they had some steel bikes made in the US under the Fisher name, but that time has gone.

I wish they had expanded the factory to support more bikes--rather than ship them overseas, but unlike other manufacturers they continue to run the factory at full capacity (I think I heard they expanded the factory workforce by 20 people last year) rather than shut down and move everything overseas (ex: Cannondale). I think there are some really great choices for higher-end steel, ti and carbon for those who want a US-built bike. Unfortunately, if you want a less expensive bike, or almost any major parts (ex: Shimano, SRAM), you're going overseas. I wish Trek had more US capacity--but they're definitely doing things right relative to any of their nearest competitors.


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## Milk-Bone (Jul 10, 2011)

davidka said:


> In terms of higher end manufacturing capability and making bicycles, Taiwan is not the same as China.


Probably so. Just was pointing out that Taiwan really *IS* China. It's about the same thing as saying if one feels something made in New Jersey it is better than the same product made in New York, then claiming the product made in Jersey isn't American made.



> China's good at copying things a few years behind, Taiwan is driving technology for carbon frame produciton.


Don't underestimate China as a whole. I think they are really technically advanced and just send us their garbage because we are willing to buy it. Next time you go to a Chinese carryout, count the number of times you see them eating the same food they sell the Americans. I have yet to use all the fingers on one hand in over 20 years. Just saying!


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Milk-Bone said:


> Probably so. Just was pointing out that Taiwan really *IS* China. It's about the same thing as saying if one feels something made in New Jersey it is better than the same product made in New York, then claiming the product made in Jersey isn't American made.


I think the comparison between Taiwan/China vs NY/NJ. I think it's more like US/Puerto Rico.



Milk-Bone said:


> Don't underestimate China as a whole. I think they are really technically advanced and just send us their garbage because we are willing to buy it. Next time you go to a Chinese carryout, count the number of times you see them eating the same food they sell the Americans. I have yet to use all the fingers on one hand in over 20 years. Just saying!


Next time you go to China, notice how little focus most people put on quality. People in China know China make things with good specs quickly and cheaply... with quality being a much lower priority. When I was in Shanghai, it was really clear this was a common thread. There was also intense nationalism... they typically preferred Chinese-made stuff even though they knew sometimes quality was a trade-off.


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## Milk-Bone (Jul 10, 2011)

MarvinK said:


> I think the comparison between Taiwan/China vs NY/NJ. I think it's more like US/Puerto Rico.


So you are telling me that Jersey isn't a territory of the US? Damn! We own it.

I guess you do bring up a good point about China. Too bad the US is flooded with all that garbage coming in every day.


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## crohnsy (Jan 6, 2011)

Road Hazard said:


> Bottom line for me is, the carbon - steel bearing interface is a bad idea.
> 
> This is what my bb looks like after 4600 miles. This bike is not ridden in the rain (got caught in drizzling weather a few times but that's the exception).
> 
> ...



Couldn't you have taken a better picture? Why did you do it in the dark?


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Milk-Bone said:


> So you are telling me that Jersey isn't a territory of the US?


The 'Republic of China' is not the 'Peoples Republic of China' (or Communist China). Taiwan has its own currency, economy, laws, (elected) officials and while nobody wants to start WWIII, most countries (including the US) have infrastructure to handle them as their own country. China has missles pointed at and trains troops against Taiwan. Taiwan is more westernized than some western countries.

If anything, I'd say Puerto Rico is more closely tied to the United States than Taiwan to China. Not even remotely comparable to NY vs NJ. If anything, you could make the argument about NY vs Texas, if Texas didn't actually *want* to be part of the US--since they have a constitution that allows for that.

In any case, it doesn't help the US any more for Taiwan to get our manufacturing jobs than Africa or South America. It doesn't hurt nearly as much as (the Peoples Republic of) China or our other actual enemies or threats.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

MarvinK said:


> The 'Republic of China' is not the 'Peoples Republic of China' (or Communist China). Taiwan has its own currency, economy, laws, (elected) officials and while nobody wants to start WWIII, most countries (including the US) have infrastructure to handle them as their own country. China has missles pointed at and trains troops against Taiwan. Taiwan is more westernized than some western countries.
> 
> If anything, I'd say Puerto Rico is more closely tied to the United States than Taiwan to China. Not even remotely comparable to NY vs NJ. If anything, you could make the argument about NY vs Texas, if Texas didn't actually *want* to be part of the US--since they have a constitution that allows for that.
> 
> In any case, it doesn't help the US any more for Taiwan to get our manufacturing jobs than Africa or South America. It doesn't hurt nearly as much as (the Peoples Republic of) China or our other actual enemies or threats.


I thought NY had missiles aimed at NJ?


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## bentvalve (Sep 6, 2010)

i have been screwing with trek ever since aug. everyone that read my post could not ee that i would have the problems im having. anyway the bike has been backo trek 2 times for shifting issues. i as told the 1st tim they rebuilt and repainted the chain stays.it just looked likethe lapped a ti hanger on it had the bike for 5 weeks and called it good. guess what it cam back and id the same thing.. i was told it was the ultegra set up an they were touchy..what everi as told to purchase the sram red set up and i would ha no further issues..you guessed it..they finished the bike up and was adjusting it and it dd the exat damn thing. well, after it went back for this last trip they said they were gonna make it work..im a mechanic(cars) and when a customer wants u to"make" something work its junk and or they do not have the money to fix proprerly. so i fired off many emails to trek, told them i had shifting issues ever since i have the bike. blah..blah.well, i told them i purchased the 5.2 and a 2012 superfly.told them the whole story. no replys. the next day the shop calls me and says they have treks
best guy on my bike. i just told them to keep the bike i was tired of screwing with it. i tol them ias going to just buy a bmc racemachine. today i got a email and trek is sending out a whole new upgraded bike. 6 series but not sure which. i am glad this is over. i did have a lemon rek china bike..sorry to ***** your post..so sooner or later trek will come thru. aug-nov. don russell


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

bentvalve said:


> i have been screwing with trek ever since aug. everyone that read my post could not ee that i would have the problems im having. anyway the bike has been backo trek 2 times for shifting issues. i as told the 1st tim they rebuilt and repainted the chain stays.it just looked likethe lapped a ti hanger on it had the bike for 5 weeks and called it good. guess what it cam back and id the same thing.. i was told it was the ultegra set up an they were touchy..what everi as told to purchase the sram red set up and i would ha no further issues..you guessed it..they finished the bike up and was adjusting it and it dd the exat damn thing. well, after it went back for this last trip they said they were gonna make it work..im a mechanic(cars) and when a customer wants u to"make" something work its junk and or they do not have the money to fix proprerly. so i fired off many emails to trek, told them i had shifting issues ever since i have the bike. blah..blah.well, i told them i purchased the 5.2 and a 2012 superfly.told them the whole story. no replys. the next day the shop calls me and says they have treks
> best guy on my bike. i just told them to keep the bike i was tired of screwing with it. i tol them ias going to just buy a bmc racemachine. today i got a email and trek is sending out a whole new upgraded bike. 6 series but not sure which. i am glad this is over. i did have a lemon rek china bike..sorry to ***** your post..so sooner or later trek will come thru. aug-nov. don russell



Can anyone translate this from Ebonics to English?


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## jumpstumper (Aug 17, 2004)

froze said:


> Can anyone translate this from Ebonics to English?


Hey, be nice to those less fortunate who have missing keys and a broken shift.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Milk-Bone said:


> Don't underestimate China as a whole. I think they are really technically advanced and just send us their garbage because we are willing to buy it. Next time you go to a Chinese carryout, count the number of times you see them eating the same food they sell the Americans. I have yet to use all the fingers on one hand in over 20 years. Just saying!


China doesn't "just send" us anything. Every bad Chinese product you've ever owned was sourced and approved by an American product manager or purchaser. They make and send what we ask for. That said, if you want decent sophisticated carbon and aluminum production (most complex full suspension frames are made in Taiwan too), you go to Taiwan. Maybe China could do it cheaper but if it were good enough then it would already be dominant in the market place. Today, it's not.

Chinese eat different food then what they serve us because they don't have the same tastes as we do. Next time you're at that restaurant, ask them for a bite of the "family" mix they're eating. I bet you don't order it. ;-)


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Taiwan can layup any carbon trickery that the Trek Wisconson factory can. At this point, I see Trek keeping that factory open because Trek is still profitable selling the Madone 6 series because Trek knows there are still enough rich & patriotic (or so they claim) American cyslist lefts willing to buy "made in USA". Technology wise, I don't think Wisconsin knows something that Taiwan already doesn't. This is not Formula 1 technology we're talking about.

However, if I had the money, and I wanted a unique bike, I would buy one of them "made in Italy" or "made in France" bikes. For some reason, I'm drawn to the organic design of Italian bikes. The Madone for its price tag is really an aesthetic numbness (I'm not talking about function).


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

davidka said:


> China doesn't "just send" us anything. Every bad Chinese product you've ever owned was sourced and approved by an American product manager or purchaser. They make and send what we ask for. That said, if you want decent sophisticated carbon and aluminum production (most complex full suspension frames are made in Taiwan too), you go to Taiwan. Maybe China could do it cheaper but if it were good enough then it would already be dominant in the market place. Today, it's not.
> 
> Chinese eat different food then what they serve us because they don't have the same tastes as we do. Next time you're at that restaurant, ask them for a bite of the "family" mix they're eating. I bet you don't order it. ;-)


I've been to a lot of Chinese resturants, resturants actually owned and operated by Chinese, some in China town Los Angeles and some in China town San Francisco, and others in other towns and cities. Funny thing, the workers would just take food right from the chef...the same stuff we were all eating. I'm sure some stuff is Amercanized, but they were eating it. The thing is there are 8 different of providences in China and they all have a different type of foods they eat, thus depending if they come from Shandong, Sichuan, Guangdong, Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Fujian, Hunan or Anhui providence the food will be different. Then large city food in those providences are finer then smaller towns within the same providence. Some people in the US might have a problem with eating black fungus


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## t_togh (Aug 9, 2008)

ACL, I love the comment on "aesthetic numbness". 

I agree...the Italian and French bikes have an artistic flair to them the Asian and US bikes have yet to match. I've often thought you could buy a Pinarello simply for its artistic value and simply hang it on a wall. 

I am drawn to Trek and Specialized for one thing: The geometry. No one makes a bike close to the Roubaix in terms of head tube/stack/reach...except for Trek with the H3 fit. And this purchase is about fit. You can play with spacers and stem lengths but that alters the bike too much. These two were engineered from the ground up with comfort in mind and they succeeded. 

Fromt he aesthetic viewpoint both finally got it...ok. The Madone finally has some nice paintjobs, and the White Roubaix Expert is acceptable.


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## B3ttyboop (Oct 29, 2011)

tellico climber said:


> I have a clue to everyone, it does matter where it is made and who made it. This is why we are in this rat hole of an economy with no hope of improvement for a very long time. .


If you think we're in this "rat hole of an economy" because of the likes of Trek making 90% of there frames in Asia, you are seriously mistaken. And you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on in the markets. Putting millions of people into houses they could not possibly afford was the beginning of it, then the bond market, and the greed of people (read big banks and finical investment houses) betting on its failure. Then the world's stack markets start reacting to that. 

Anyway, away off topic.


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## okiefo (Jan 10, 2009)

B3ttyboop said:


> If you think we're in this "rat hole of an economy" because of the likes of Trek making 90% of there frames in Asia, you are seriously mistaken. And you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on in the markets. Putting millions of people into houses they could not possibly afford was the beginning of it, then the bond market, and the greed of people (read big banks and finical investment houses) betting on its failure. Then the world's stack markets start reacting to that.
> 
> Anyway, away off topic.


I see what he's saying though. People want cheap (inexpensive) products. Companies outsource to Asia where labor is cheap, so they can lower the price of their product yet keep their profit margin high. This puts Americans out of work. Unfortunately, it seems that nothing can be done about it now. But I'm not an economist. I'm just a bike guy.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Even the people out protesting for the Occupy stuff are guilty... look what they're wearing, using, etc... almost ALL of it is made overseas. They'll tell you they can't afford better... while they text their contacts on their new smartphone (also made in China). If you think its a big deal, put your money where your mouth is.

Trek isn't innocent, but they still do make more bikes in the US than any other manufacturer.


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## Milk-Bone (Jul 10, 2011)

froze said:


> I've been to a lot of Chinese resturants, resturants actually owned and operated by Chinese, some in China town Los Angeles and some in China town San Francisco, and others in other towns and cities. Funny thing, the workers would just take food right from the chef...the same stuff we were all eating. I'm sure some stuff is Amercanized, but they were eating it. The thing is there are 8 different of providences in China and they all have a different type of foods they eat, thus depending if they come from Shandong, Sichuan, Guangdong, Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Fujian, Hunan or Anhui providence the food will be different. Then large city food in those providences are finer then smaller towns within the same providence. Some people in the US might have a problem with eating black fungus


If you are lucky you might catch them eating the rice they serve us, that's about it. I've watched them shovel in the MSG into the wok and rest assured they are not eating MSG. Gotta love dipping into the old 50Kg barrel of MSG


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

B3ttyboop said:


> If you think we're in this "rat hole of an economy" because of the likes of Trek making 90% of there frames in Asia, you are seriously mistaken. And you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on in the markets. Putting millions of people into houses they could not possibly afford was the beginning of it, then the bond market, and the greed of people (read big banks and finical investment houses) betting on its failure. Then the world's stack markets start reacting to that.
> 
> Anyway, away off topic.


But the 54 trillion dollars of national debt is not the fault of us the common people, it's the fault of government wasteful spending. And the common person getting into houses they could not afford was also a government misstep because they allowed and told the banks to do that; of course that's where the common person failed in using common sense.

But getting back on track with Chinese made stuff, we as people have the right to buy stuff not made in China...at least to some degree, some things we need can't be found manufactured anywhere else. But I always look for the made in label, and if it's China I avoid it, though again, if possible. If all the bikes in the world someday were all made in China, then I would never buy a new bike!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Milk-Bone said:


> If you are lucky you might catch them eating the rice they serve us, that's about it. I've watched them shovel in the MSG into the wok and rest assured they are not eating MSG. Gotta love dipping into the old 50Kg barrel of MSG


 Better Chinese restaurants don't do that, and you can always ask before you dine if they use MSG. We have couple of places where I live that they post a large sign on their doors that they use no MSG. And no, I've seen them eat the same stuff the rest of the customers were eating, and it wasn't just rice; I've been to a couple of all you can eat places and the Chinese employees at break time would go through the same line as the rest of us...only difference was they didn't pay for the food.

Please note Milk Bone, I'm not saying you're 100% wrong because I too know that some Chinese people won't eat from the same stuff they serve, they cook up their own thing, usually they cook up something that is familiar to them from their homeland providence and village food their use to that the rest of us may not like, and that's usually because it's too spicy or some weird food that would turn Americans off. But if you thing about it the same is true with some Mexican food too, the Mexican staff might eat something they cooked up separate from the diners because they have to Americanize the food too much and they don't like that type of "Mexican" food. And I bet the same would be true with other cuisines from other parts of the world. If you want the real authentic food then you need to go to the country, then to the providence, then to the small villages and eat their customary food.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

FWIW, while many of Trek's bikes are made overseas, the design is completely controlled and driven by Trek's US employees. I've been there recently, it's a big place and there are literally hundreds of people, engineers, designers, etc. working there. I'm sure Cannondale and Specialized are similar. 

I ride a Asian made 5 series bike with SRAM Rival. It weighs 16lbs (62cm, plain wheels) and rides as well as anything I've ever ridden. All of Trek's competition builds overseas and has for a long time. I'm sure they wanted to continue building as many of their bikes here in the US but if it puts you at a fatal competitive disadvantage then there's really no choice. They have a huge network of dealers that rely on them to make competitive (and competitively priced) products to sustain their lively hood.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

davidka said:


> FWIW, while many of Trek's bikes are made overseas, the design is completely controlled and driven by Trek's US employees. I've been there recently, it's a big place and there are literally hundreds of people, engineers, designers, etc. working there. I'm sure Cannondale and Specialized are similar.
> 
> I ride a Asian made 5 series bike with SRAM Rival. It weighs 16lbs (62cm, plain wheels) and rides as well as anything I've ever ridden. All of Trek's competition builds overseas and has for a long time. I'm sure they wanted to continue building as many of their bikes here in the US but if it puts you at a fatal competitive disadvantage then there's really no choice. They have a huge network of dealers that rely on them to make competitive (and competitively priced) products to sustain their lively hood.


Unfortunately this is very true. But in America production workers want to make $20 an hour plus benefits which will amount to another $10 an hour, Then they sue the companies they work for for all kinds of things, or fake injuries, or get hurt at home then go to work and say they got hurt there, etc which adds to the cost of things made. Granted health benefits are expensive in America, but that's our fault because no one bother to limit torts, so torts went unabated rewarding all sorts of huge payouts for stupid stuff that most of the time was the plaintiffs fault and they still win in court.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

^ Yes!


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## Milk-Bone (Jul 10, 2011)

froze said:


> Better Chinese restaurants don't do that, and you can always ask before you dine if they use MSG. We have couple of places where I live that they post a large sign on their doors that they use no MSG. And no, I've seen them eat the same stuff the rest of the customers were eating, and it wasn't just rice; I've been to a couple of all you can eat places and the Chinese employees at break time would go through the same line as the rest of us...only difference was they didn't pay for the food.
> 
> Please note Milk Bone, I'm not saying you're 100% wrong because I too know that some Chinese people won't eat from the same stuff they serve, they cook up their own thing, usually they cook up something that is familiar to them from their homeland providence and village food their use to that the rest of us may not like, and that's usually because it's too spicy or some weird food that would turn Americans off. But if you thing about it the same is true with some Mexican food too, the Mexican staff might eat something they cooked up separate from the diners because they have to Americanize the food too much and they don't like that type of "Mexican" food. And I bet the same would be true with other cuisines from other parts of the world. If you want the real authentic food then you need to go to the country, then to the providence, then to the small villages and eat their customary food.


I think you hit the nail on the head. So many cultures Americanize the food to the point it lost its roots. I can respect them, the cooks/workers, that don't eat the same stuff they serve us. Good point. Thanks.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

froze said:


> Unfortunately this is very true. But in America production workers want to make $20 an hour plus benefits which will amount to another $10 an hour, Then they sue the companies they work for for all kinds of things, or fake injuries, or get hurt at home then go to work and say they got hurt there, etc which adds to the cost of things made. Granted health benefits are expensive in America, but that's our fault because no one bother to limit torts, so torts went unabated rewarding all sorts of huge payouts for stupid stuff that most of the time was the plaintiffs fault and they still win in court.


I think this is a little (ok, a lot) cynical. Fact is, if you have to skill to do perfect Tig welds on aerospace materials, your skills are worth $30/hr. in the aerospace industry or anywhere else that needs that kind of specialty. That is the fair market value. The bike industry doesn't have the kind of revenue flowing through it to sustain that kind of labor expense. It is easier to work out on a smaller scale as custom and boutique builders do where total overhead (warehousing, distribution, sales force, etc.) is much lower.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

davidka said:


> I think this is a little (ok, a lot) cynical. Fact is, if you have to skill to do perfect Tig welds on aerospace materials, your skills are worth $30/hr. in the aerospace industry or anywhere else that needs that kind of specialty. That is the fair market value. The bike industry doesn't have the kind of revenue flowing through it to sustain that kind of labor expense. It is easier to work out on a smaller scale as custom and boutique builders do where total overhead (warehousing, distribution, sales force, etc.) is much lower.


First off, we were discussing building a bicycle not a high tech air/space craft. It's already been a well known fact that China pumps out CF and AL frames at a cost less then $250 each. Then the bike manufacture slaps on Shimano components also built in China for around $150, a set of Chinese wheels and tires for about another $100, then sell you the bike for $2,500. It's all about profit. We could easily build a frame here, get the components and wheels made in China sent here for assembly for about double the cost and still sell it for $2,500 and the bicycle company is still making profit. How do you think they build cars? They have American workers assembling the car while parts, like a huge hurricane, come swirling in from all parts of the globe, pour into Detroit, or Fremont, etc for final assembly. 

The bicycle industry could do the same thing and still have American jobs...they chose not to, mostly because building CF bike are very toxic to the environment, and the bike manufactures don't want all the American red tape. Pollution from CF? Pollution like styrene, methyl ethyl ketone peroxide (MEKP), methyl methacrylate, toluene, xylene and methylene chloride that get poured into the air, and much of those chemicals are carcinogens...which is why cancer in China has skyrocketed over the last 20 years. And aluminium is even worse. Sure all these pollutants can be controlled and severely limited but that cost a lot of money, and a bicycle company doesn't have the funds for large scale pollution control technology, so China builds this stuff with no regard to pollution (or worker safety). Although in the last couple of years China has been looking at the pollution problem because their water ways are being destroyed, so they don't have a choice. Be warned, once they initiate American technology to clean up their factories, their water and air, rest assured your bicycle prices will go up among other things.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

The reason for the aerospace comparison is to show that the bicycle industry does not set the value of a labor skill in America. The labor costs what it does because of other private industries setting the value.

It is all about profit, make too little and you go out of business. Make good profits and it can be re-invested into better products in the future. The proof of that is evident everywhere you look. STI, Di2, and all the other technologies Shimano has brought to market have been the result of huge R&D investment. That money came from profit. These are cases where a profitable company has been directly beneficial to our sport.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

davidka said:


> The reason for the aerospace comparison is to show that the bicycle industry does not set the value of a labor skill in America. The labor costs what it does because of other private industries setting the value.
> 
> It is all about profit, make too little and you go out of business. Make good profits and it can be re-invested into better products in the future. The proof of that is evident everywhere you look. STI, Di2, and all the other technologies Shimano has brought to market have been the result of huge R&D investment. That money came from profit. These are cases where a profitable company has been directly beneficial to our sport.


Good points, but I doubt R&D would cost them their entire $2,000 dollar profit on a bike, nor do I doubt it cost $1,000, I doubt if R&D cost $150 per bike!


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

froze said:


> Good points, but I doubt R&D would cost them their entire $2,000 dollar profit on a bike, nor do I doubt it cost $1,000, I doubt if R&D cost $150 per bike!


It depends on how many of the particular bike they sell. Remember, R&D is just a part of it. Then you've got warehousing, assembly facilities, distribution, etc. Of a theoretical $1000 in gross profit, most of it is already spent on "keeping the lights on" as the saying goes.

There's an old joke in the bike industry;
"How do you make a small fortune in the bike industry?"
"Start with a large one."


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

davidka said:


> It depends on how many of the particular bike they sell. Remember, R&D is just a part of it. Then you've got warehousing, assembly facilities, distribution, etc. Of a theoretical $1000 in gross profit, most of it is already spent on "keeping the lights on" as the saying goes.
> 
> There's an old joke in the bike industry;
> "How do you make a small fortune in the bike industry?"
> "Start with a large one."


I understand all of that as well, the facts are though that since bike manufactures went to China their profits have skyrocketed. Problem with those low cost to make bicycles is that the manufactures went crazy with making too much of a variety of bikes confusing customers, so that confusion has turned off buyers and sales have fallen in the past year...though this could also be a result of a slower economy as well. But too many choices confuse people, it's something that is being recognized by other industries too like tooth paste and shampoo.


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