# Are titanium frames dead?



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

I have been looking at titanium frames among a sea of carbon. 
I don't see many on the road.

Given ride quality only- what frames offer the best feel? Eliminate cost, weight and stiffness from the equation. We are only talking about ride quality here. 

1) Steel
2) Carbon
3) Titanium
4) Aluminum


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

If you don't care about weight then for all practical purposes any material could be made to have the same ride quality as the other.


----------



## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Not really. My 1993 Litespeed Classic frame is still alive, although I've long since converted to a dedicated single speed. Still rides well.


----------



## jmchapple (Feb 8, 2007)

*Steel and Carbon*

I ride steel fg and cx, carbon road. have never ridden ti. i like the solid feel of steel, yes it is heavier but i don't think is it noticable while riding. i also like the carbon. both are stiff and have comfortable rides. i hear others say that ti is not as stiff but has a great ride.


----------



## Indyfan (Mar 30, 2004)

We sell quite a few TI frames. You won't find many "stock" TI frames because MFR's like TREK, Specialized, etc. don't make enough margin on them compared to carbon and AL. TI has mostly gone to the boutique and custom builders much like steel. If cost were no object I'd have some TI bikes in with the steel ones in my (small) stable. When the tubes are chosen well, it rides much like quality steel; lively with a bit of spring to it, soaking up the bumps but still giving feedback to the rider about the riding surface. The springy, lively feel I'm talking about is different than a flexy frame, I've experienced that too. A good TI frame will last a long time (another reason the big MFR's probably don' t like it) and be a pleasure to ride.

Bob


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Yeah, Titanium is so dead that I'm probably going to get a Ti bike next year. And I'll have a lot of builders to choose from.

Don't believe everything you hear. Ti is a bit rare because its a costly material to work with (i.e. it can't be a big profit machine for bike makers the way that fairly-cheap-to-make, but high-selling-price carbon can), but like steel, it'll always be around if you want it. 
.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

jmchapple said:


> I ride steel fg and cx, carbon road. have never ridden ti. i like the solid feel of steel, yes it is heavier but i don't think is it noticable while riding. i also like the carbon. both are stiff and have comfortable rides. i hear others say that ti is not as stiff but has a great ride.


You need to ride that MTB more, too!

What's up, teammate?


----------



## Ray_from_SA (Jun 15, 2005)

Two of my team mates just built up custom Ti frames for training purposes. 

Ti didn't look very dead yesterday when I was getting schooled by one of those Ti riding team mates yesterday.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*you will find*

guys that have been riding for years and know what they like
are more concerned with buying one bike to last decades vs upgrading every 2-3 years
where all day comfort is far more important than 'sub 15 pound'

will choose custom in Ti or Steel most often, some go custom in CF (Crumpton, Calfee...)

so custom goes to the top of the list

but Ti and Steel still reign supreme in this market segment


----------



## jpap (Jun 21, 2006)

Just checked my Baum and it still has a heart beat. Saw another 2 Baums on last Saturday's ride. Also spotted 2 Lynskeys, a Seven, a DeRosa Ti and a Lightspeed. We were grossly outnumbered by Giants and Specialised though.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I live in the land*

of Bill Holland, ti is doing quite fine


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

and again Ti has the smallest profit margin
major mfrs get way more bang for their buck selling CF


----------



## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

I used to ride a carbon trek oclv(first generation of them) and that was sent back to trek two times for repair and they sent me a new frame back the 2nd time and I sold that and bought a Merlin extra light which I really loved, which was damaged in car collision a couple of years ago(very sad)... and I loved the Ti so much I found a Seven on ebay to replace the merlin and I'm very happy with that. 

I also have a Litespeed mt. bike. 

I just really like how Ti rides, a lot like steel but lighter... and I love steel bikes as well! 

I don't think Ti is dead.. it just doesn't make the profit margins like alum. and carbon, like someone else said... so you don't see as many.. I think this is what makes them even better since I don't like to ride what everyone else does.


----------



## padawan716 (Mar 22, 2008)

skygodmatt said:


> Given ride quality only- what frames offer the best feel? Eliminate cost, weight and stiffness from the equation. We are only talking about ride quality here.
> 
> 1) Steel
> 2) Carbon
> ...



I'd say all of the above some of the time, and none of the above the rest of the time, or whichever one the big companies pay me to choose.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> of Bill Holland, ti is doing quite fine


My Seven is doing just fine..apart from being lonely due to me being too busy to ride.


----------



## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

A titanium bike can be plenty light. My Lynskey R320 is featured on the Lynskey blog and weighs in at 12.67 lbs. In my area three friends and team mates went from long term carbon bike riders to titanium and none of them regret it. Its nice to see more and more titanium bikes in my area. I used to have the only Lynskey and now there are 5.:thumbsup:


----------



## armybikerider (Oct 27, 2009)

My Lynskey R330 is by no means "dead"....in any sense of the word or by any definition.

As far as ride quality goes......(watch me get flamed).......ride quality has less to do with frame material than with the PSI in the tires and to a lesser degree the width of said tires.
700X25
I've ridden Columbus steel, big tubed Al, small tubed Al (Vitus back in the day) and CF. I'll stick with Ti.......and 90 PSI in my tires!


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Titanium and carbon are the two materials that can deliver both lively rides and stiffness at very low weights. Carbon can go lighter, but can't take as much abuse. Ti is tougher, but less airdynamic.

Steel tubesets like S3 can come close to what ti does, but with less ride-tuning flexibility. Aluminum is a great structural material, but has little of the finest qualities we look for in frames.


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

armybikerider said:


> As far as ride quality goes......(watch me get flamed).......ride quality has less to do with frame material than with the PSI in the tires and to a lesser degree the width of said tires.


Not flaming but disagreeing.

I performed an experiment last year - I took an existing Ti frame and machined away material on the tubes in a pattern designed to have the maximal influence on the acoustical properties of the frame. I expected these mods to make a small difference, I didn't know whether it would be even detectable.

For the first test I rode the same loop as I had ridden the last ride before the mods. The difference surprised me, in a good way. I made sure that the mods to the frame were the only change to the bike between tests - including tyre pressure which stayed at my normal level about 600 kPa*.

The theory on which I am working is that a major determinant of ride quality is the equivalent of signal to noise ratio in acoustics. In this analogy the "signal" is the feel of the road and the "noise" is harshness and buzz. Anyones who has ridden a top notch butted steel frame knows what I mean - there's a sense that the frame is good at communicating what is happening where the tyres hit the road.

IMO Carbon bikes miss this because the damping properties designed into the material attenuate the signal at least as much as the noise, so the ride may be smoothed but it's also deadly dull.

I'm currently working on buiding a second frame which will incorporate my mods from the ground up. This one's a much smaller size, if it feels as good as (or better than) the first one I'll know I'm onto something.

*600 kPa is about 85 PSI for those who live in backwards countries.


----------



## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Just 'cause I'm in a snarky mood. A happy cross post.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=232793


----------



## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

TI not dead. Shopping around for a ti frame now.


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Juanmoretime said:


> A titanium bike can be plenty light. My Lynskey R320 is featured on the Lynskey blog and weighs in at 12.67 lbs. In my area three friends and team mates went from long term carbon bike riders to titanium and none of them regret it. Its nice to see more and more titanium bikes in my area. I used to have the only Lynskey and now there are 5.:thumbsup:


5kg??
That is impressive.


----------



## gearguywb (Dec 26, 2006)

Sure hope it is not dead since I am going to order a custom RSL today


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> Yeah, Titanium is so dead that I'm probably going to get a Ti bike next year. And I'll have a lot of builders to choose from.
> 
> Don't believe everything you hear. Ti is a bit rare because its a costly material to work with (i.e. it can't be a big profit machine for bike makers the way that fairly-cheap-to-make, but high-selling-price carbon can), but like steel, it'll always be around if you want it.
> .


Umm, carbon is more expensive as a raw material and framesets are typically hand laid (the reason the work is done in Asia predominately). You can weld quicker than you can mold, the people still doing Ti (for the most part) are doing made to order which is a far different environment than mass production and why the cost is high.


----------



## fmbp (Apr 23, 2003)

Not dead one bit. After a ride on my Moots on Turkey day, it'll never, ever be dead to me. I luff that bike.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Ti is far from dead

I have sold way over a hundred brands over the last 30 year; and frames / bikes in all major materials. Our current demand for Ti has never been higher. In addition, the reaction from buyers of Motobecane Ti bikes is better and more positive than I have ever seen on any brand or model in 3 decades. {Motobecane is one of the only brands that I know of that sells bikes in all four major materials; and Ti bikes are the hardest to keep up with demand on}

If anything; I would say that there is a trend towards Ti and high-grade steel [at the expense of CF]. This may disappoint some suppliers, as CF bikes are very profitable. Myself, I like Ti and high-grade steel and think more 'balance' in sales of materials would make sense. That would mean less AL & CF and more Ti & Steel. [no one material is 'best' - but Ti & Steel are under represented now.


----------



## gearguywb (Dec 26, 2006)

Mr. Scary said:


> Umm, carbon is more expensive as a raw material and framesets are typically hand laid (the reason the work is done in Asia predominately). You can weld quicker than you can mold, the people still doing Ti (for the most part) are doing made to order which is a far different environment than mass production and why the cost is high.


I hope your post was actually in jest.

"carbon is more expensive than Ti"....nope.

"you can weld faster than mold"...nope

"carbon is typically hand laid"...I wouldn't say "typically"


----------



## Indyfan (Mar 30, 2004)

Mark Kelly said:


> Not flaming but disagreeing.
> 
> I performed an experiment last year - I took an existing Ti frame and machined away material on the tubes in a pattern designed to have the maximal influence on the acoustical properties of the frame. I expected these mods to make a small difference, I didn't know whether it would be even detectable.
> 
> ...


Wow! I really like the thinking behind this. Someone trying to quantify the transfer of vibration through a bicycle frame. Music (playing, listening, thinking alot about tone/acoustics etc.) has always been a big part of my life and the aspects you are studying have been in the back of my mind for a very long time. Keep at it. You could very well be onto something.

Bob


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

Indyfan said:


> Wow! I really like the thinking behind this. Someone trying to quantify the transfer of vibration through a bicycle frame. Music (playing, listening, thinking alot about tone/acoustics etc.) has always been a big part of my life and the aspects you are studying have been in the back of my mind for a very long time. Keep at it. You could very well be onto something.
> 
> Bob


Thanks for the kind words.

I am continuing the experiments but since it costs me quite a lot to do each iteration it's pretty slow.

As to quantifying the transfer of vibration through a frame, I've done some spectral analysis of frame member vibration and the results are somewhat inconclusive. As acoustic theory dictates, the frequencies at which the resonances arise are basically geometric properties - they depend primarily on the length of the tube. 

My modifications do change the relative strengths of some of the frequencies but the effects are fairly small (< 10 dB) and I can't point to any one of them and say that it is the cause of the observed change in ride feel. Taken as a group however there does seem to be some correlation between what I'm observing and the results achieved in other studies such as Champoux's group in Canada


----------



## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

skygodmatt said:


> I have been looking at titanium frames among a sea of carbon.
> I don't see many on the road.


What you see on the road is mostly determined by what your local shops sell. If you don't see ti frames on your rides it's because none of your local shops sell them.


----------



## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

Here in Trek's back yard I see plenty of Treks at the races, but on the training rides and especially under riders (men & women) over 40 there are plenty of Ti's. I have a Seven and a Lemond Ti (which I loaned to an acquaintance for the summer) and I love the ride. I do like the feel of my SL tubed Serotta on a 120 miler, but if I had to replace it I'd buy another Ti... or a Madone.


----------



## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

I've got two Eddy Merckx bikes in the same size, same geometry. One is steel (Deda 01) and the other titanium. The bikes handle and ride nearly identical. I would give the ti bike a slight edge in comfort, but it has a carbon fork (the other one steel) so that could account for the difference.

It depends a lot on the design and tubing. A friend of mine has one of the Litespeed bikes that is designed for performance, and he told me it was the stiffest (and least comfortable) bike he owned.


----------



## BetweenRides (Oct 11, 2005)

tarwheel2 said:


> I've got two Eddy Merckx bikes in the same size, same geometry. One is steel (Deda 01) and the other titanium. The bikes handle and ride nearly identical. I would give the ti bike a slight edge in comfort, but it has a carbon fork (the other one steel) so that could account for the difference.
> 
> It depends a lot on the design and tubing. A friend of mine has one of the Litespeed bikes that is designed for performance, and he told me it was the stiffest (and least comfortable) bike he owned.


Don't forget about your Bro's Merlin. I've had all frame types and by far the Ti suits me best - the great ride of steel without the rust issues I've always had on those bikes. I do think most people that buy Ti decide to cover the high expense after years of trying other frames. I wanted one that would last.


----------



## RK250 (Nov 16, 2007)

I have a Merlin Extralight and a Merlin Echo listed in rbr classifieds and mtbr classifieds. No interest, priced very, very fair for impeccably maintained machines. That's okay, 'is what it is' as some say. 
My point, not too popular. That's okay. Screw popular opinion. Ti bikes ride great and as anyone who owns one knows, bombproof.
I do have a couple of friends who threatened me if I do end up selling the bikes.


----------



## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

There is flexy Ti and harsh Ti depending on frame design, but for my purposes the ideal Ti frame is built of shaped 3/2.5 and provides the power transfer and ride qualities of an 853-class steel frame at 1/2 pound less. For me, hard-to-break is the main draw of Ti over carbon and corrosion resistance is Ti's main draw over steel. 

Assuming there are no major construction flaws in a full Rival Bikes Direct Ti Heat, 1600 bucks is the best bargain going in road bikes, IMO. A full Rival Moots CR for five grand? I don't think the flawless welds and fever-pitch owner reviews could ever tempt me. With good carbon frames coming down in price and nice pre-owned steel for sale on eBay, not even a mid-range Ti floats my boat.

After spending some time on all of the materials I would say that a well-built Ti bike rides like a well-built steel bike with the bonus of corrosion resistance and slightly lower weight. It's the frame to have if you're having just one. 

But who wants just one?  .


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

gearguywb said:


> I hope your post was actually in jest.
> 
> "carbon is more expensive than Ti"....nope.
> 
> ...


Nope, but I did check raw material costs it seems carbon has dropped significantly in the last several years. Ti is more expensive now so I stand corrected.

Seriously genius let's hear your "in the know" cycle times of mitering and welding versus hand laying sheets of material into bladders, etc...

And while there are injection forms of carbon, frames aren't made that way. Some suspension linkages, and cranks, etc. are.

Don't delude yourself that just because you spent $2500 for your US frame and the cost eclipses the typical made in Asia one that it is more expensive. See global business for an explanation of labor rates, overhead costs, taxation levels, etc. Motobecane Ti bikes are pretty affordable, that is a good comparison to the typical carbon frame. Oh, and get over yourself!


----------



## gearguywb (Dec 26, 2006)

Mr. Scary said:


> Don't delude yourself that just because you spent $2500 for your US frame and the cost eclipses the typical made in Asia one that it is more expensive.


Hey Scary, I learn every single day...but I am still trying to figure out this sentence......


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mr. Scary said:


> Nope, but I did check raw material costs it seems carbon has dropped significantly in the last several years. Ti is more expensive now so I stand corrected.
> 
> Seriously genius let's hear your "in the know" cycle times of mitering and welding versus hand laying sheets of material into bladders, etc...
> 
> ...


Duder, lighten up. It is an open secret that die molded carbon fiber is not actually expensive. That's why companies in China can sell you a frame and fork with shipping for $300, and make a profit.

Material costs are usually the least signficant part of a frame cost. Skilled labor is the biggest cost. Welders who can lay down an attractive titanium weld that isn't oxygen embrittled are not made overnight, and are well payed, even in China.

In contrast, carbon lay ups with prepreg'd diecut sheets are such unskilled labor, even you could do it.


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

gearguywb said:


> Hey Scary, I learn every single day...but I am still trying to figure out this sentence......


Should have ended in "better" rather than "more expensive".


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> Duder, lighten up. It is an open secret that die molded carbon fiber is not actually expensive. That's why companies in China can sell you a frame and fork with shipping for $300, and make a profit.
> 
> Material costs are usually the least signficant part of a frame cost. Skilled labor is the biggest cost. Welders who can lay down an attractive titanium weld that isn't oxygen embrittled are not made overnight, and are well payed, even in China.
> 
> In contrast, carbon lay ups with prepreg'd diecut sheets are such unskilled labor, even you could do it.


Clever, spoken like a true "99er"... And a welder is "paid", not "payed" but you missed that after dropping out of high school.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mr. Scary said:


> Clever, spoken like a true "99er"... And a welder is "paid", not "payed" but you missed that after dropping out of high school.


And you missed a comma: That would be_ 'not "payed"*,* but you...'_

Now that we've determined that we are equally uneducated, we can turn back to your insistance, against all reason, that carbon fiber is a more expensive material to constuct a bicycle from. How's that debate going for you? With the insults and (unsuccessful) grammar attacks, you must really be on to something. Perhaps it all comes down to the rarity of carbon on our little planet? 

By the way, I've never lived near Route 99, but I have visited. Most astute.


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

It seems to me that this argument could easily be solved by the application of your actual facts.

According to the prices on Nova Cycle Supply, a full Ti tubeset runs about $370, while according to the prices on My Carbon Express, enough prepreg to make a frame with a good margin for wastage will cost about half of that. For comparison, steel seems to run between $100 and $200 for most Columbus products (I'm sure XCR and Reynolds 953 are far more) and aluminium is at the low end of this range.

Take home message: the material is not a huge contributor to frame cost. The cost of the material, in order from priciest to cheapest appears to be titanium, then carbon / steel*, then aluminium.

*Not including "gaspipe" tube as used in BSOs.


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> And you missed a comma: That would be_ 'not "payed"*,* but you...'_
> 
> Now that we've determined that we are equally uneducated, we can turn back to your insistance, against all reason, that carbon fiber is a more expensive material to constuct a bicycle from. How's that debate going for you? With the insults and (unsuccessful) grammar attacks, you must really be on to something. Perhaps it all comes down to the rarity of carbon on our little planet?
> 
> By the way, I've never lived near Route 99, but I have visited. Most astute.


I admitted an error on the material side of the equation. Carbon used to be over $100/lb but it seems it has been reduced significantly since then (almost tenfold). What I am still insistent upon is that the time of labor is longer and the tooling more costly to construct a carbon frame and that is evident in prices charged by people who actually do build frames in the US. Seven/Moots/Eriksen are not as expensive as Calfee/Parlee and the like. Now we could further the debate separating a lugged construction versus a mainly monocoque one (like most off the rack frames are converting to) but I'm still waiting on the cycle times (finished frames) since you claim to be in the know and I restrict my travels to routes less traveled.


----------



## nor_cal_rider (Dec 18, 2006)

I dont think so...just brought this home yesterday....


----------



## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Titanium frames are far from dead and I can't imagine why you would think that.



skygodmatt said:


> I have been looking at titanium frames among a sea of carbon.
> I don't see many on the road.
> 
> Given ride quality only- what frames offer the best feel? Eliminate cost, weight and stiffness from the equation. We are only talking about ride quality here.
> ...


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mr. Scary said:


> I admitted an error on the material side of the equation. Carbon used to be over $100/lb but it seems it has been reduced significantly since then (almost tenfold). What I am still insistent upon is that the time of labor is longer and the tooling more costly to construct a carbon frame and that is evident in prices charged by people who actually do build frames in the US. Seven/Moots/Eriksen are not as expensive as Calfee/Parlee and the like. Now we could further the debate separating a lugged construction versus a mainly monocoque one (like most off the rack frames are converting to) but I'm still waiting on the cycle times (finished frames) since you claim to be in the know and I restrict my travels to routes less traveled.


A Serotta Legend Ti frame and fork has an MSRP of $5195. The most expensive frame Calfee sells is $4495. That's not the examples you wanted to use, is it?

But I don't think you understand how branding and perceived value works. Serotta charges what they do because they can - and so does Calfee and all those companies. Cervelos are priced in that same range, yet are made in China. Bikes Direct offers carbon frames for free, when you factor component price. Looking at the various brand name prices isn't going to tell you anything about the intrinsic, average costs of building in carbon or titanium.

Your best guide is how hard it is to do a basic build with various materials, tubing costs, and retail prices by unbranded sellers. 
1. You can build a decent carbon bicycle at home, with basic instruction and hand tools. The cost of doing the same with Ti is the cost of a purge system/frame jig, welder and the experience welding enough Ti to trust your own head tube weld.
2. A "pricey" Enve tubeset is about $300-$400, about the same branded ti tubing. (BTW, talking about carbon's per pound price is kind of silly - a 2 lbs frame is only a little over 1 pound of carbon - the rest is epoxy and dropouts, etc. A 2 lbs TI frame has 2 lbs of Ti in it.)
3. A molded carbon frame direct from a Chinese factory is $200. A Chinese made Ti frame starts at $800.

So, you can look at it as cost to you, materials or minimum price and you keep coming up with Ti construction costing more than carbon. Maybe it is a global price fixing conspiracy, but I think if anyone could offer Ti frames for $600, $500 or $400, they would. That's what happened with carbon, but something is holding Ti back from the price plummeting down.

Thank you for being such a wise, polite and open minded reader.


----------



## ntb1001 (Jan 19, 2010)

nor_cal_rider said:


> I dont think so...just brought this home yesterday....



Nice Porsche..my dream car. ( but I bought a motorcycle and a Cervelo S2, and a Litespeed Classic and campy equipped carbon road bikes for my two boys instead )


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> A Serotta Legend Ti frame and fork has an MSRP of $5195. The most expensive frame Calfee sells is $4495. That's not the examples you wanted to use, is it?
> 
> But I don't think you understand how branding and perceived value works. Serotta charges what they do because they can - and so does Calfee and all those companies. Cervelos are priced in that same range, yet are made in China. Bikes Direct offers carbon frames for free, when you factor component price. Looking at the various brand name prices isn't going to tell you anything about the intrinsic, average costs of building in carbon or titanium.
> 
> ...


Nice cherry picking, perhaps check out Parlee's site OR better yet (you mentioned it) a Cervelo R5ca which retails at $10K and is hand laid by engineers in California. You are failing to grasp economies of scale so let me illustrate with an example:

1. steel nut, specified dimensions, and I need 5 pieces.
2. same nut, same dimensions, but I need 5 million pieces.

Which will yield the lower price? Carbon far outsells Ti and the Ebay frames referenced are the result of this economy of scale.

Carbon is more labor intensive AND there is more engineering/testing and tooling involved to get to the point to produce a carbon frame. 

I can see I won't change your mind though (and you aren't going to change mine), enjoy your Ti bike as my argument was never about which rides better. I've ridden/owned both and there are positives and negatives for either...


----------



## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

I don't want to get into this argument, but, if ti is so much cheaper to build why then would the big names in the ti market not lower their prices to stay more relevent in the market?
Where is Mike at Bikes Direct? I bet he could settle this debate.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mr. Scary said:


> Nice cherry picking, perhaps check out Parlee's site OR better yet (you mentioned it) a Cervelo R5ca which retails at $10K and is hand laid by engineers in California. You are failing to grasp economies of scale so let me illustrate with an example:
> 
> 1. steel nut, specified dimensions, and I need 5 pieces.
> 2. same nut, same dimensions, but I need 5 million pieces.
> ...


What you just wrote actually makes sense, but misses the point. Since carbon frames ARE mass produced, their cost IS lower. That's both the point and benefit of mass production.

TI frames are handmade, even on a production line. Some carbon frames are also handmade. If you want to compare only those two, you'll find that the prices are just comparable. Hand production is always expensive, and can always be made more expensive by the method of the maker.

Maybe the "miscommunication" here is that carbon CAN be produced with techniques requiring almost no significant labor costs, and ti cannot go below the level of skill necessary for it's handwelding. If someone came up with a production line similar to Trek's old automated brazing setup, then we'd have a better comparison. But right now the cheapest of the two will continue to be carbon, because of the mass production that you so accurately honed in on.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

T K said:


> I don't want to get into this argument, but, if ti is so much cheaper to build why then would the big names in the ti market not lower their prices to stay more relevent in the market?
> Where is Mike at Bikes Direct? I bet he could settle this debate.



I am unsure which debate

If it is the 'is Ti dead or dying'
that is easy - No; not even close; in fact the opposite

If the debate is cost of frames
that is easy

Aluminum and low grade steel: cheapest by far

CF is about 10 times basic AL or lower-end steel

Ti is about 2.5 to 3 times CF in cost of frames [assuming DB shaped Ti - straight guage round tube Ti about 1.5 times CF]

High-grade steel is the confusing one: 4130 straight guage can be about the same as AL: 953 can be 50% more than Ti; lugs add more to the cost of a 4130 frame than OE cost of 3 AL frames; super nice steel like 853 can be twice what CF is and just under Ti; unless you add lugs or chrome; then it can be more than Ti --- Steel is all over the place

_But in general I would say from lower to highest_ something like
Hi-ten Steel
Aluminum
4130 straight
Aluminum BD
Aluminum hydro shaped
4130 BD
4130 lugged
CF / AL skelaton
glued peices CF
nice steel DB
mono CF
nice steel lugged
straight guage Ti
shaped DB Ti
super special steel; with exotic stuff like stainless, lugged, chromed, etc
_these would be rules of thumb based on typical oe frame builders_

So in general; I think everyone here understands that product mangers like CF as the margin is super good compared to other materials; but that is coming down


----------



## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

skygodmatt said:


> Eliminate cost, weight and stiffness from the equation. We are only talking about ride quality here.



How can you quantify "ride quality" if you've eliminated "stiffness" from the equation?


----------



## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Mr. Scary said:


> You can weld quicker than you can mold


In a sense, this is true:

For as close to an apples-to-apples comparison as I think you'll find anywhere, read these two fabrication scenarios:
http://www.strongframes.com/design_&_fabrication/tour/ 
http://www.strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/tour/

...then read this thread (prefereably all of it, but especially post #176 where he talks about integrating carbon into his fabrication schedule) 
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/strong-frames-15047-9.html 

Basically, the cure cycles for the multiple carbon layups in a single frame are DOWN TIME. It takes longer to build a carbon frame because you're often "waiting for the glue to dry" (that's a euphemism, but a fairly accurate one in that you don't need to understand materials tech in order to grasp the implications).


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> What you just wrote actually makes sense, but misses the point. Since carbon frames ARE mass produced, their cost IS lower. That's both the point and benefit of mass production.
> 
> TI frames are handmade, even on a production line. Some carbon frames are also handmade. If you want to compare only those two, you'll find that the prices are just comparable. Hand production is always expensive, and can always be made more expensive by the method of the maker.
> 
> Maybe the "miscommunication" here is that carbon CAN be produced with techniques requiring almost no significant labor costs, and ti cannot go below the level of skill necessary for it's handwelding. If someone came up with a production line similar to Trek's old automated brazing setup, then we'd have a better comparison. But right now the cheapest of the two will continue to be carbon, because of the mass production that you so accurately honed in on.


It seems I have been incorrect, I just checked a frame builder's website (somebody I know) and a few years ago his Deda carbon tubed frames (he buys the tubes, glues them, and then bakes them) were more expensive than his custom welded Ti frames. I just checked his site today and the reverse is now true. Apparently, carbon molding has become more efficient (coupled with the $ drop in raw materials) and the prices have declined. My apologies...


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Bikesdirect - 
Great post. Thanks for sharing your insiders view.



Mr. Scary said:


> It seems I have been incorrect, I just checked a frame builder's website (somebody I know) and a few years ago his Deda carbon tubed frames (he buys the tubes, glues them, and then bakes them) were more expensive than his custom welded Ti frames. I just checked his site today and the reverse is now true. Apparently, carbon molding has become more efficient (coupled with the $ drop in raw materials) and the prices have declined. My apologies...


Scary, 

Are the apologies for being incorrect, or for off topic personal attacks, rudeness and insults?


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> Bikesdirect -
> Great post. Thanks for sharing your insiders view.
> 
> 
> ...


For being incorrect, but to refresh your memory here was your first post to me:

"In contrast, carbon lay ups with prepreg'd diecut sheets are such unskilled labor, even you could do it."

So whether I was right or wrong it didn't warrant a baseless statement like that... But I can extend it to both as two wrongs don't make a right, so just consider it an apology.

Thanks


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mr. Scary said:


> For being incorrect, but to refresh your memory here was your first post to me:
> 
> "In contrast, carbon lay ups with prepreg'd diecut sheets are such unskilled labor, even you could do it."
> 
> ...


Which was a reaction to your "Seriously, genius..." post. You came into the thread swinging at gearguywb for no real reason. 

If you want to make a point, you can probably do it without the name calling. And you certainly can't expect to be treated any different than the tone you lead with. So now here you are, egg on your face and pissing off people who you have zero reason to insult.


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> Which was a reaction to your "Seriously, genius..." post. You came into the thread swinging at gearguywb for no real reason.
> 
> If you want to make a point, you can probably do it without the name calling. And you certainly can't expect to be treated any different than the tone you lead with. So now here you are, egg on your face and pissing off people who you have zero reason to insult.


There's no egg on my face as I don't like eggs...


----------



## peter.hardie (May 31, 2006)

*Is Ti dead?*

Let me check with my new Dean, purchased in the spring, and my used Merlin, purchased last month.

BTW, I love, love the Dean.


----------



## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks mike at BD! That post is awesome! Think that pretty much settled it.


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

Bob Ross said:


> How can you quantify "ride quality" if you've eliminated "stiffness" from the equation?


I see your point.

What I meant to say is that we shouldn't compare ultra-stiff bottom brackets to moderately stiff ones. I was posting for ride feel- rather than the ultimate racing stiffness.


----------



## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

*Race ti 29er mtb for endurance events....*

....and would race nothing else. Hard tail of course:thumbsup:

CF for road though..


----------



## rickturbo (Nov 19, 2004)

I own a Litespeed Archon Ti, Specialized SL3 and Cervelo P3; have ridden the Cervelo R3 SL & S3, Felt Z & AR, Trek 6.9. All spiffy, bling bikes. For fast team and group rides, I choose the SL3, for training or all day rides, the Archon hands down. Although I do take the Archon out on fast group rides too. What bike do I prefer the most? The Archon without question.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

15 years young


----------



## Bullvine (Sep 9, 2009)

If I could have any 1 bike it would be ti the moots rsl. Ugh so much cash


----------



## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

I have custom Ti bikes in dbl butted tubing for Road and 'Cross. The Cross bike is 18lbs in a size 57 with 32 spoke clincher rims and a 9 speed DA/Xtr parts mix. The road bike is 3/4th of a pound less with full DA 10spd. I love the way they ride and they are plenty stiff for me as they have mondo chain stays (1 1/4 diameter).


----------



## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

http://www.baumcycles.com/bikes/romano

yes, this Ti looks dead to me..... but only because mine is painted bright orange !! 8^)


----------



## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*hmmmm*

http://www.baumcycles.com/paint-personalisation

hard to resist those colours......


----------



## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

By ti bike isn't breathing!


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

acid_rider said:


> http://www.baumcycles.com/bikes/romano


What a pity they never answered my inquiry about a Ti frame but then Eriksen didn't either.


----------



## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*you live too far away 8^)*



Mike T. said:


> What a pity they never answered my inquiry about a Ti frame but then Eriksen didn't either.


I think Baum makes great Ti and steel bikes but if you live in EU or Americas you will find something equally good nearer your home - like Moots, IF, Seven, Serotta, Linskey, etc. 
I live in Australia so for me Baum Ti or Baum steel is 100% a natual choice..... In fact they are located about 1.5 hours drive from my home. Still I had to wait ~6 months before my Baum was delivered..... Yes, it was worth it and yes it was expensive 8^)


----------



## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

bikerjulio said:


> 15 years young


Nice job with the color coordinating! I always give credit when someone livens up plain titanium frames with some color!

Titanium is not dead. The problem is it's expensive to machine so frame prices have to be higher or the profit margins are too low. Also, carbon lends itself to endless shape changes, keeping the marketing people employed generating spin as to why this years' model is a "must have".


----------



## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Depends on the build and builder*

I have a number of steel frames, stock and custom, one Al (Merckx SC), two carbon frames and currently two Ti frames. Ride quality, for the same materials and between materials is quite different.

I had a 1999 Litespeed Vortex which I put 50,000km before selling as I was not happy with the geometry. The ride was fine over the rough stuff but the smaller stuff on the road would be a bit more noticeable than some of the steel bikes I own.

My everyday rider for the last six years is a Merckx Ex, made by Litespeed with tubing and geometry spec'd by Merckx although the tubing was sourced by Litespeed. I also have a Lemond Team Saturn Ti, made by Trek and with Reynolds db'd Ti tubing which unfortunately is in storage Stateside. The ride quality on the Merckx Ex is no better or worse than a Colnago Master Olympic I have, surprising given the MO is a 52 (ctt) and a lot of people claim that the Gilco tubeset is harsh in the smaller sizes which I do not find to be the case.

My BMC SLC01 has a harsher ride than the Merckx although it seems to dampen small road irregulaties better. The Colnago C40 is probably the smoothest ride I own and like night and day when compared to the BMC, both all carbon designs.

My harshest riding bike is a Marinnoni custom TSX steel frame. Probably just a case of the wrong tube set for somebody of my size and weight. The Colnago MO has a solid but comfortable ride and my favorite when living in Shanghai and dealing with the bad road conditions there.

If I bought a new Ti frame, Baum would be at the top of my list given my current location of Singapore but that would be different were I back in the States. On the high end, Ti frames for me, at least new, are not as good a value compared to carbon. That being said, the only Ti bikes I would consider acquiring at this point would be a older Bianchi Mega tube model, a Merckx Titane (Euro issue only), Colnago Bititan (later model) or Colnago Titanio/Oval Master, all by definition would be used.


----------



## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

Bottom line ... Ti is Fly :thumbsup:


----------



## jlwdm (Nov 7, 2009)

Ti demand is clearly down.

ABG has shut down Merlin and Litespeed is only making stock ti frames.

Spectrum will still get tubes from ABG but the frames will be made by Seven.

Jeff


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

jlwdm said:


> Ti demand is clearly down.
> 
> ABG has shut down Merlin and Litespeed is only making stock ti frames.
> 
> ...


That shows (if true) that ABG demand is down - which could be for a lot of reasons having little to do with titanium.


----------



## temoore (Mar 9, 2004)

rx-79g said:


> That shows (if true) that ABG demand is down - which could be for a lot of reasons having little to do with titanium.


There have been several posts regarding ABG's declining warranty repairs (valid or not). There are examples of many companies in different industries that are purchased by larger entities or aggregators. Often the customer support declines, and this ultimately will result in people not feeling comfortable purchasing the product. I am not commenting on the validity of the claims, just that once the bad word spreads, it influences purchase decisions, especially if it is an expensive purchase. 
I love my 2010 Moots Vamoots.


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Given the number of companies that Lynskey is manufacturing ti bikes for and the number of ti bikes I see turning up on MTBR from various companies I would say that demand for ti is anything but down.


----------



## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

jlwdm said:


> Ti demand is clearly down.
> 
> ABG has shut down Merlin and Litespeed is only making stock ti frames.
> 
> ...


I think mid-tier ti is disappearing and we won't see many new high-end road bikes being developed in this metal either. The "new" Litespeed appears to be moving on to carbon while ducking the legacy issues of broken ti frames that were likely built too light for the material. 

IMO many of the high-end ti boutique builders painted themselves into a marketing B.S. corner some time ago with the preposterous and expensive "best of all worlds" frames like the Ottrott, etc. When your product marketing efforts try to convince people that your new mostly-carbon bike is a better ride than your all-titanium bike (beginning with seat stays and year-by-year adding more carbon until you have an I-don't-know-what-I-want-to-be titanium-lugged carbon fiber creature with "de-bonding" written all over it) you're no longer tipping your hand: you've just killed a product line .

I give Moots credit for sticking with simple ti and defining the art of shaping and welding it. Moots oozes class and the bikes are not gimmicky ... but they do have some nerve asking 300 clams for a titanium stem. There will always be a place for Moots titanium just as there will always be a place for Sachs steel, but these builders are going to continue to please a lucky few ... never going to move the market.

The new low-priced ti is intriguing (BD, etc.). If these bikes prove rugged I think they will find their way under lots of riders.


----------



## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

Indyfan said:


> ...TREK, Specialized, etc. don't make enough margin on them compared to carbon and AL.


Carbon is easy to manufacture with unskilled, low wage labor. It's literally cut and paste.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike Overly said:


> I think mid-tier ti is disappearing and we won't see many new high-end road bikes being developed in this metal either. The "new" Litespeed appears to be moving on to carbon while ducking the legacy issues of broken ti frames that were likely built too light for the material.
> 
> IMO many of the high-end ti boutique builders painted themselves into a marketing B.S. corner some time ago with the preposterous and expensive "best of all worlds" frames like the Ottrott, etc. When your product marketing efforts try to convince people that your new mostly-carbon bike is a better ride than your all-titanium bike (beginning with seat stays and year-by-year adding more carbon until you have an I-don't-know-what-I-want-to-be titanium-lugged carbon fiber creature with "de-bonding" written all over it) you're no longer tipping your hand: you've just killed a product line .
> 
> ...


I don't think Serotta, Seven or IF, the three biggest perpetrators of what you're talking about, are having any trouble selling any of their expensive bikes - ti, carbon or mixed. When people believe you are selling quality, rather than selling a philosophy, you can do whatever you want.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

TI is not dead it's just that most people don't think they can afford them so they don't even look at them, and most LBS's don't carry them due to price concerns and general biker not wanting to spend the cash. But Bikes Direct as several very nice TI bikes at very reasonable prices that put them down below that of even mid/high end carbon frames.

Ride quality is all about frame build. Most say TI rides smoother then any other material, but you can stiffen ti up a lot with fat tubesets; most say AL rides stiff but you can make AL smooth riding with small diameter tube sets. Then geometry plays into it too, Cannondale makes a comfortable Cadillac type of ride with a AL touring bike because of longer wheel base, or Litespeed blade with real short wheel base rides like a sports car. 

So it's best to ride the various types of bikes your interested in and find the one you like. But don't ride them in a parking lot, take them at least on a 5 mile ride.


----------



## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> I don't think Serotta, Seven or IF, the three biggest perpetrators of what you're talking about, are having any trouble selling any of their expensive bikes - ti, carbon or mixed. When people believe you are selling quality, rather than selling a philosophy, you can do whatever you want.


I agree on quality vs. philosophy. Many buyers are paying attention to philosophy -- and when you're charging 3-6x the price of similar products I think some customers are going to expect the philosophy to be confident. For someone like me (I'm probably in the minority), I might just buy into, say, the Serotta quality thing ...but then look at their models and see steel w/carbon that's said to ride just like titanium and titanium with carbon that's said to ride better than titanium and conclude that I should just go with carbon, which will be done just as well elsewhere at a fraction of the price. (All of this sounds like a Dr. Seuss parable).


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike Overly said:


> I agree on quality vs. philosophy. Many buyers are paying attention to philosophy -- and when you're charging 3-6x the price of similar products I think some customers are going to expect the philosophy to be confident. For someone like me (I'm probably in the minority), I might just buy into, say, the Serotta quality thing ...but then look at their models and see steel w/carbon that's said to ride just like titanium and titanium with carbon that's said to ride better than titanium and conclude that I should just go with carbon, which will be done just as well elsewhere at a fraction of the price. (All of this sounds like a Dr. Seuss parable).


That may be you, but you sound like someone that will look at Serotta's frame weights, then look at their prices, and conclude that all their bikes are rip offs. Across town, some other guy is sweating the choice between the $6000 frame Ottrott and the $8000 Meivici and doesn't come to any conclusions.

In the end, he buys the Ottrott and you buy some Asian made thingy, and both of you feel you got the "best bike". But you were never actually considering a Serotta, and aren't their customer base. People who buy bikes from Serotta, Seven, IF, Waterford, Parlee, Moots, Crumpton, etc aren't attempting to decode a product line - they just want the very finest production.

You want "performance for the dollar", whatever that actually means.

Personally, I think frames are kind of like wine - buy a bottle that is either less than $20 or more than $100. I don't think with carbon it makes much sense to spend more than $1000 for the frame unless you're willing to spend $3000 or so for a semi-custom. Planet X has a 999g carbon frame $636. And if that's not good enough, why should a Madone be better?

The philosophy thing you're talking about is just going to drag the big importers down as everyone starts to realize that there is little difference between one production carbon bike and another. In the meantime, the boutique bicycle makers will continue to wait-list adoring fans and charge whatever they want.

So I think you're right that someone has painted themselves into a corner, but it isn't the high end guys. I think Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Felt, Scott and Fuji are the ones sitting on a bubble.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*huh?*



Mr. Scary said:


> I admitted an error on the material side of the equation. Carbon used to be over $100/lb but it seems it has been reduced significantly since then (almost tenfold). What I am still insistent upon is that the time of labor is longer and the tooling more costly to construct a carbon frame and that is evident in prices charged by people who actually do build frames in the US. Seven/Moots/Eriksen are not as expensive as Calfee/Parlee and the like. Now we could further the debate separating a lugged construction versus a mainly monocoque one (like most off the rack frames are converting to) but I'm still waiting on the cycle times (finished frames) since you claim to be in the know and I restrict my travels to routes less traveled.


a)Material is irrelevant, its design. You can have the "best" material (a marketing gag, scheme etc etc ) and still have a poorly designed frame which will ride bad.

b)Welding Ti, yuh, uh, you are aware that there are over 16 grades of commercial grade Ti? AND you also know that you have to maintain a virtually sterile environment to weld it and oh yes, its rarly CP Ti but rather some wonderful combo such as 3.25 or 6.4 which is by and large 2 different universes as far as welding??

c)Carbon, define cheaper, versus cheap versus better versus worse? All fo these are irrelevant when you remove the rider, riding style and actual terrain from the equation of well, ACTUALLY RIDING A BIKE

d)WHO CARES about the materail when you could go the route of a better designed bike which will AGAIN fit the riding style and expectations of the same rider?

e)I ride a POS, I love my POS, its a cromoly, I have ridden it thousands of miles, never ever had a frame issue ever. Did have to go through some wheels, which last I checked are the actual conveyance of road feel. SO, again, the materials argument is useless, and being stuck in the 1990's mind set of I have a Ti bike and thus its costly and thus rides better is a total myth, a crock, a lie, a fabrication, a hoax, a scheme to get cash etc etc etc. WHY say that? BECAUSE for the sake of this flawed argument iof there was an actual magical material, guys and gakls who are far far btter on a bike than nost of us, have not yet declared (as a group in concensus), oh, Material X, this is it!


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

This is getting dragged out. We have one life to lead and we're dead a long time. We should buy what we want and please just one person - ourselves (and the Mrs of course). To do otherwise is to waste our life.


----------



## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

i have a Litespeed Firenza that rides nearly identical to the steel Proliatariat i have, they're both great over the rough stuff, seem to float. tube diameters are about the same. The Litespeed surprises me, i actually forget i'm riding it, accelerates when i'm tired, lets me hold speed when i need to.


----------



## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> That may be you, but you sound like someone that will look at Serotta's frame weights, then look at their prices, and conclude that all their bikes are rip offs.


You're close. I wouldn't be scrutinizing the frame weights so much as the case they make for bikes that have slowly become 3/4 carbon -- and small-tubed round carbon mimicking steel tubes at that. Again, this is just me, but if I were looking for the best, as their target customer presumably is, I'd spend at least five minutes reading over the descriptions of their offerings. If I were to get even the slightest impression that their web copy was full of hokum (like, say, "perfect alchemy" and "mysterious" ride qualities cited several times over among several distinct models) I'd go looking elsewhere for "the best." I can get taken by a carnival barker for a much smaller investment.

I think most people want to be BSed artfully when they're laying down serious money for a "best" anything. I'm just saying I don't like Serotta's BS. Maybe the bikes really are fantastic.

In any case, a figurehead maker like Serotta that's turned their top end bicycle into titanium-joined carbon fiber isn't making a compelling case for titanium. Moots occupies pretty much the same place in the boutique market as Serotta and they have their message pitch-perfect, IMO.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike Overly said:


> You're close. I wouldn't be scrutinizing the frame weights so much as the case they make for bikes that have slowly become 3/4 carbon -- and small-tubed round carbon mimicking steel tubes at that. Again, this is just me, but if I were looking for the best, as their target customer presumably is, I'd spend at least five minutes reading over the descriptions of their offerings. If I were to get even the slightest impression that their web copy was full of hokum (like, say, "perfect alchemy" and "mysterious" ride qualities cited several times over among several distinct models) I'd go looking elsewhere for "the best." I can get taken by a carnival barker for a much smaller investment.
> 
> I think most people want to be BSed artfully when they're laying down serious money for a "best" anything. I'm just saying I don't like Serotta's BS. Maybe the bikes really are fantastic.
> 
> In any case, a figurehead maker like Serotta that's turned their top end bicycle into titanium-joined carbon fiber isn't making a compelling case for titanium. Moots occupies pretty much the same place in the boutique market as Serotta and they have their message pitch-perfect, IMO.


People buy Ottrotts and similar Ti/carbon blend bikes because ti is a perfect material to combine with carbon, and they find all carbon boring. Plus, it is one of the most involved bikes to build. If that sort of thing appeals to you, a little silly ad copy isn't going to scare you off. 

As far as the intangibles go, it rides like a Serotta. :thumbsup: That's what sells Serottas - not claims. People generally select the brand, then the materials with these premium names. That copy is written for people shopping Serottas, not doing research on construction method theory.


I think the difference is whether you see a frame as a widget that holds the parts together while providing "ride", or you see a frame as an artful application of a framebuilder's knowledge. Especially if you're concerned about long term durability.

You also mention "round tubes" like that's a bad thing. Shaped tubing is just as much BS as any other ad copy silliness. When you find the lightest, nicest riding carbon bikes available, they have round or near round tubes. Round is the ultimate shape for bike tubing - the most strength with the least fat. Parlee, Scott, etc.


----------



## rockpicker (Aug 16, 2008)

I've been going back and forth between Carbon and Ti for my new frame for a while now. I currently have a Ti Seven thats 11 years old and a few Aluminum frames with varying degrees of fatigue. Never had a carbon frame and was feeling like I was missing out on the latest performance. Look at F1 cars now; all have switched from Ti suspension and bonded aluminum cockpits to carbon fiber or variants thereof. For me, it was down to a Ti Planet X from IF, or a Cannondale SuperX Red. In the end, I was afraid the Cannondale would just be too harsh unless I was pushing it hard all the time (same for a lot of the other top end Team frames from major manufacturers). I'm not getting any younger and the multitude of broken bones hurt worse every year. I ultimately decided that I can work with a builder and tune the ride and fit and get for me what will be the best of both worlds, i.e. a road bike that I can ride 200 miles a day on dirt 

Sure, custom Ti costs a lot, but when you think about it, does it really? Its going to look as classic 10 years from now as it does today; is servicable, and in my opinion is the most versatile and sturdy. How many people drop 10 grand on a motorcycle or snowmobile and get very limited, weather dependant use from them? I look at my bikes as an investment in my well-being and when you're still smiling 50 miles in, that's all that matters.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*more BS*



rx-79g said:


> People buy Ottrotts and similar Ti/carbon blend bikes because ti is a perfect material to combine with carbon, and they find all carbon boring. Plus, it is one of the most involved bikes to build. If that sort of thing appeals to you, a little silly ad copy isn't going to scare you off.
> 
> As far as the intangibles go, it rides like a Serotta. :thumbsup: That's what sells Serottas - not claims. People generally select the brand, then the materials with these premium names. That copy is written for people shopping Serottas, not doing research on construction method theory.
> 
> ...


I rode a 7-11 fitted Steel serotta millions of years ago. Serotta cut corners, cut cvsts and now a sloping tube bike that is the "best" design is their product. Thats cheeep cheep cheep like a birdy and if I am gonna drop 5 K+ on a FRAME much less a bike, CHEAP is not my bag.

As to tube shaping, thats odd. Didnt Serotta claim years ago that this was the way to go own the steel line? Didnt Pinerallo, Basso, Ciocc etc etc etc all make the same BS shaped tube claim? ON ALL OF THEIR MODELS? Yes Serotta is cool.

BS, total BS and all I see is someone got bought and sold

I dont agree, met Ben, nice guy, bikes they make now, pure name recognition BS


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*huh?*



rockpicker said:


> I've been going back and forth between Carbon and Ti for my new frame for a while now. I currently have a Ti Seven thats 11 years old and a few Aluminum frames with varying degrees of fatigue. Never had a carbon frame and was feeling like I was missing out on the latest performance. Look at F1 cars now; all have switched from Ti suspension and bonded aluminum cockpits to carbon fiber or variants thereof. For me, it was down to a Ti Planet X from IF, or a Cannondale SuperX Red. In the end, I was afraid the Cannondale would just be too harsh unless I was pushing it hard all the time (same for a lot of the other top end Team frames from major manufacturers). I'm not getting any younger and the multitude of broken bones hurt worse every year. I ultimately decided that I can work with a builder and tune the ride and fit and get for me what will be the best of both worlds, i.e. a road bike that I can ride 200 miles a day on dirt
> 
> Sure, custom Ti costs a lot, but when you think about it, does it really? Its going to look as classic 10 years from now as it does today; is servicable, and in my opinion is the most versatile and sturdy. How many people drop 10 grand on a motorcycle or snowmobile and get very limited, weather dependant use from them? I look at my bikes as an investment in my well-being and when you're still smiling 50 miles in, that's all that matters.


Assuming you have to repair a Ti frame, do you actually know what that entails?

You spent 8+K on a fitted 7 ti and you mention a REPAIR? OMFG


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> I rode a 7-11 fitted Steel serotta millions of years ago. Serotta cut corners, cut cvsts and now a sloping tube bike that is the "best" design is their product. Thats cheeep cheep cheep like a birdy and if I am gonna drop 5 K+ on a FRAME much less a bike, CHEAP is not my bag.
> 
> As to tube shaping, thats odd. Didnt Serotta claim years ago that this was the way to go own the steel line? Didnt Pinerallo, Basso, Ciocc etc etc etc all make the same BS shaped tube claim? ON ALL OF THEIR MODELS? Yes Serotta is cool.
> 
> ...


I'm not claiming anything about the actual products. We're talking about how bikes are marketed and why people buy them.

I wouldn't spend $8000 on a Serotta. But I at least understand why people would, and how that affects their material choices.

So I don't see what in my post is "BS".


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*yes, you did*



rx-79g said:


> I'm not claiming anything about the actual products. We're talking about how bikes are marketed and why people buy them.
> 
> I wouldn't spend $8000 on a Serotta. But I at least understand why people would, and how that affects their material choices.
> 
> So I don't see what in my post is "BS".


Shaped tubing in BS? YET SEROTTA DID IT and you can see why people drop 8K on a Serotta AFTER YOU SAID, shaped tubing is BS?

AGAIN, I liked my Serotta when I rode and rode it until it literally fell apart. LOOK AT THE CURRENT SEROTTA LINE UP.

Nowm yes, mine was 20+ years ago, BUT GUESS WHAT? Its not the same bike, they cut costs, you are buying a name only. AND remember the Ti frame with SHAPED stays? Remember how Serotta claimed this as the ULTIMATE TECHNOLOGY? YOU DONT BUT I DO.Wanna hear something funny, the best aero bikes on the planet, HAVE SHAPED TUBES. SO, TIME, CERVELO LiteSpeed, Serotta, GT, Trek etc etc ALL ARE FULL OF IT EVEN THOUGH the best aero minds on the planet use SHAPED TUBES

There are great bikes made by lot of folks, for WAAAAY less than 8K and when YOU BS folks about things YOU call BS because you dont even recall your precious Serotta doing THE EXACT SAME THING, GUESS what? THATS BS


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

I have had the conversation about why people buy ti frames a few times with my friend who imports high end ti and steel frames into Australia.

IMO the reason people buy a Moots, Blacksheep, Form, Vulture etc is basicaly because that is what they want. It is not about whether it is better or worse than the CF option. It is all about WANT.

My Moots was exactly this. I was all set on buying a Pinarello Prince at the time. Then I saw pics of a Moots Compact and that was the end of any thoughts of the Pinarello or any other roadbike.

Still riding the Moots 3 years later and I still have absolutely no thoughts of replacing it with anything.


----------



## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> People buy Ottrotts and similar Ti/carbon blend bikes because ti is a perfect material to combine with carbon, and they find all carbon boring. Plus, it is one of the most involved bikes to build. If that sort of thing appeals to you, a little silly ad copy isn't going to scare you off.
> 
> As far as the intangibles go, it rides like a Serotta. :thumbsup: That's what sells Serottas - not claims. People generally select the brand, then the materials with these premium names. That copy is written for people shopping Serottas, not doing research on construction method theory.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with round tubing, but lots of problems with thin round carbon tubing that's likely been chosen only for its ability to play nice dimensionally with minimal titanium or steel frame bits so that these guys can hum their "mysterious perfect alchemy" tune. Silly idea, sillier price. The Emperor's New Clothes on steroids.

(Not that I have an opinion ).


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> Shaped tubing in BS? YET SEROTTA DID IT and you can see why people drop 8K on a Serotta AFTER YOU SAID, shaped tubing is BS?
> 
> AGAIN, I liked my Serotta when I rode and rode it until it literally fell apart. LOOK AT THE CURRENT SEROTTA LINE UP.
> 
> ...


Calm down. I'm not recommending Serotta. I don't ride Serotta. To say that you understand the mystique surrounding brand does not mean that you excuse anything they do, or claim.

I'm talking about marketing and perception. You are FAILING to perceive that I don't give a crap about the company we are discussing. I'm using them to illustrate a point to Mike about product claims vs. brand perception. NOT about whatever it is you're blathering about.


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> I'm not claiming anything about the actual products. We're talking about how bikes are marketed and why people buy them.
> 
> I wouldn't spend $8000 on a Serotta. But I at least understand why people would, and how that affects their material choices.
> 
> So I don't see what in my post is "BS".


This is quite amusing, I read your last post and rolled my eyes. You consistently accuse everybody else of being drones to marketing hype (that you are so intelligent you see right through) and then waxed on about an Ottrott and Meivici or whatever as though Ben gently holds each tube lovingly prior to mounting them in the fixture and the light of the Ark comes shining off them in some biblical display of Heaven on Earth. I hope the only car in your garage is the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport. That is the only car worthy of your divineness...


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

You guys need some warm weather.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike Overly said:


> I have no problem with round tubing, but lots of problems with thin round carbon tubing that's likely been chosen only for its ability to play nice dimensionally with minimal titanium or steel frame bits so that these guys can hum their "mysterious perfect alchemy" tune. Silly idea, sillier price. The Emperor's New Clothes on steroids.
> 
> (Not that I have an opinion ).


Here's an Ottrott:








Here's a Parlee:








Here's a Crumpton








Looks like all 38.1 down tubes to me.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mr. Scary said:


> This is quite amusing, I read your last post and rolled my eyes. You consistently accuse everybody else of being drones to marketing hype (that you are so intelligent you see right through) and then waxed on about an Ottrott and Meivici or whatever as though Ben gently holds each tube lovingly prior to mounting them in the fixture and the light of the Ark comes shining off them in some biblical display of Heaven on Earth. I hope the only car in your garage is the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport. That is the only car worthy of your divineness...


Oh, good. All the reading impaired kids come out on the same night. 

I don't think Serotta does anything special. I think they've done an amazing job of marketing themselves as a premium brand. So premium that fans do not question the engineering, frame weights, tubing diameters, cost or much else. They have positioned themselves very similarly to the luxury cars you mistakenly alluded to.

The Ottrott weighs more than a pound more than my old Merlin. I would have to be as naive as you to want that, kiddo.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Omfg*



rx-79g said:


> Calm down. I'm not recommending Serotta. I don't ride Serotta. To say that you understand the mystique surrounding brand does not mean that you excuse anything they do, or claim.
> 
> I'm talking about marketing and perception. You are FAILING to perceive that I don't give a crap about the company we are discussing. I'm using them to illustrate a point to Mike about product claims vs. brand perception. NOT about whatever it is you're blathering about.


You name drop Merlin and Ottrott and you then claim you think Serotta is perception.

Do you know what happened to Merlin over the last say 25 years? You think they are botique now. ROTFLMFAO. WTF do you think the names you mentioned are now? 

Its a bike, ride it and have fun. Dont ruin it for the new person who you meet and suck the soul out of any joy because they did not waste their money.

Its all BS. Ride what fits, ride fast and far far far away 


Are you by the way that person who extolls certain ride qualities and has yet to even ride more than 5K miles a year?


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*curious*



rx-79g said:


> Oh, good. All the reading impaired kids come out on the same night.
> 
> I don't think Serotta does anything special. I think they've done an amazing job of marketing themselves as a premium brand. So premium that fans do not question the engineering, frame weights, tubing diameters, cost or much else. They have positioned themselves very similarly to the luxury cars you mistakenly alluded to.
> 
> The Ottrott weighs more than a pound more than my old Merlin. I would have to be as naive as you to want that, kiddo.


How many miles have you ridden in say, oh the last 5 years?


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> You name drop Merlin and Ottrott and you then claim you think Serotta is perception.
> 
> Do you know what happened to Merlin over the last say 25 years? You think they are botique now. ROTFLMFAO. WTF do you think the names you mentioned are now?
> 
> ...


Of course I know what happened to Merlin. Have you read anything I posted in the two ABG warranty threads? I have a USED 1996 Merlin that I payed $1000 for - and frequently tell people to buy used Ti bikes of that vintage.

You seem to have started with the wrong impression of what I wrote and who I am. Stop while you are behind.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*ha ha*



rx-79g said:


> Of course I know what happened to Merlin. Have you read anything I posted in the two ABG warranty threads? I have a USED 1996 Merlin that I payed $1000 for - and frequently tell people to buy used Ti bikes of that vintage.
> 
> You seem to have started with the wrong impression of what I wrote and who I am. Stop while you are behind.


Vintage? OMG...........you never commit to any statement, so its useless really, spend your money on garbage, get dropped by talented riders on cheaper bikes. Its win win I tell ya.

This whole attitude thing, "stop while you are behind" or calling me Fruitcake, is this your way of saying you want to make out with me? I mean hey, I am not into the being behind men who spend so much on bikes, I mean I guess there is some sort of sensuous quality to it....If I had no life, but oh well. I picture myself as more of a bear or a top so stop honey you are making me out all wrong. 

Again, how many miles did you rode in the last 5 years?


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> Oh, good. All the reading impaired kids come out on the same night.
> 
> I don't think Serotta does anything special. I think they've done an amazing job of marketing themselves as a premium brand. So premium that fans do not question the engineering, frame weights, tubing diameters, cost or much else. They have positioned themselves very similarly to the luxury cars you mistakenly alluded to.
> 
> The Ottrott weighs more than a pound more than my old Merlin. I would have to be as naive as you to want that, kiddo.


It's amusing that you continue to refer to me like you think I'm a kid. I am most likely older than you based on some statements that you have made (and my screen name does not allude to some scary monster toys like yours either). But in that same vein, you have an extremely high opinion of yourself and your thoughts. You aren't Nietzsche (not even close) but we can all see through your rantings that you are the real deal and aren't influenced by marketing at all and you see all poser product for what it is. Seriously, you have a Jesus complex which is a form of psychosis. You are the same as Chaz and I am your Vincent Bugliosi...


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*oh, I get it*



Mr. Scary said:


> It's amusing that you continue to refer to me like you think I'm a kid. I am most likely older than you based on some statements that you have made (and my screen name does not allude to some scary monster toys like yours either). But in that same vein, you have an extremely high opinion of yourself and your thoughts. You aren't Nietzsche (not even close) but we can all see through your rantings that you are the real deal and aren't influenced by marketing at all and you see all poser product for what it is. Seriously, you have a Jesus complex which is a form of psychosis. You are the same as Chaz and I am your Vincent Bugliosi...


Nah, its easier really.

When I repaied watches many years ago, his kind would show up. They talk about 10K plus watches all day. Might even own one or 2 used models.

Then they start picking on customers or making fun of people with cheaper watches/ or GOD FORBID they only spent 1 grand on a CHEAP ROLEX blah blah blah.Eventually, my normal course of action was to ask them to leave or have a cop haul them away. A waste of time actually. 

Worse yet, the whole h o m o erotic thing with the metaphors is a tad repressive and really, I just dont care. If he rides alot and gets joy great, if he rides less than 5K miles a year and spends billions of bucks great. Either way, I would not ride with him and really, I am too fvxcking old for this crap


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> Vintage? OMG...........you never commit to any statement, so its useless really, spend your money on garbage, get dropped by talented riders on cheaper bikes. Its win win I tell ya.
> 
> This whole attitude thing, "stop while you are behind" or calling me Fruitcake, is this your way of saying you want to make out with me? I mean hey, I am not into the being behind men who spend so much on bikes, I mean I guess there is some sort of sensuous quality to it....If I had no life, but oh well. I picture myself as more of a bear or a top so stop honey you are making me out all wrong.
> 
> Again, how many miles did you rode in the last 5 years?


I never called you "Fruitcake". Quote it.

I stopped using bike computers 10 years ago, so I have no idea. I was overseas a lot several years ago where it was hard to bicycle, so that cut into my riding. How does this pertain to a discussion about bicycle marketing?


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mr. Scary said:


> It's amusing that you continue to refer to me like you think I'm a kid. I am most likely older than you based on some statements that you have made (and my screen name does not allude to some scary monster toys like yours either). But in that same vein, you have an extremely high opinion of yourself and your thoughts. You aren't Nietzsche (not even close) but we can all see through your rantings that you are the real deal and aren't influenced by marketing at all and you see all poser product for what it is. Seriously, you have a Jesus complex which is a form of psychosis. You are the same as Chaz and I am your Vincent Bugliosi...


I'm guessing you're 26. You have the mouth of someone who's done a little bit, but doesn't think, or check facts, before they throw down. 

I'm 39. I started building bikes and wheels as a teenager. Walked into a pro shop with I bike I built up when I was 18 and was hired on the spot. I worked in four nicer shops and for one supplier. 

It's not that I have such a high opinion of my thoughts. It's just the contrast with how I view yours.


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

ttug said:


> Nah, its easier really.
> 
> When I repaied watches many years ago, his kind would show up. They talk about 10K plus watches all day. Might even own one or 2 used models.
> 
> ...


He could take a lesson watching the movie that your avatar is from, he might learn something about what happens to self proclaimed "know it alls"...


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*look, lets just say we dont agree OK*



rx-79g said:


> I never called you "Fruitcake". Quote it.
> 
> I stopped using bike computers 10 years ago, so I have no idea. I was overseas a lot several years ago where it was hard to bicycle, so that cut into my riding. How does this pertain to a discussion about bicycle marketing?


I am 43, averaged over 10K miles a year for about 9 years (not counting the early 80's) and now recent health issues haved basically put me at ground zero and I like it. Its fun again, you know, riding the bike.

I lived overseas as well, and for a few years went back to hilly WV roads which lets face it, I am not a climber but that was fun as well.

My current road bike has rough guess, conservative, what 45 possibly 50K miles on it. Its a Biachi Brava. It was a gift. I love it. I have ridden really nice bikes, my colleague raced for 7-11, he is my physical clone, NICE bikes, great memories

In my late 30's I decided that I would basically turn off people who had to ride a GREAT BIKE because they basically would do what you are doing now. Even though I would put minutes on these sane people in TT's and open road races, it was always some problem with their equipment, 

Now, after my scare with Parkinsans, cancer in my family, and a chance at just riding again, I just want to start riding.I just want a pair of wheels that I like on a basic bike and I will ride towards some random goal and get back in shape. In short, you are the exact reason I would never ride a bike if I were brand new at the sport. 

Draining the fun from the sport with dull info mercial blurbs is just cruel really. Its dull it means nothing and its kind of amusing in that training a dumb dog sort of way

BUY EVERYTHING. GO NUTS RIDE WELL

and 

Keep the hell out of my way


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> Nah, its easier really.
> 
> When I repaied watches many years ago, his kind would show up. They talk about 10K plus watches all day. Might even own one or 2 used models.
> 
> ...


The most expensive bike I've ever bought was a used frame that I paid $1000 for. 

I'm glad you a Scary have found each other. A match made in heaven. I'm sure you'll be misquoting and at each other's throats in no time.


So, either of you have any insight on the marketing of expensive bicycle frames?


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*yes*



rx-79g said:


> The most expensive bike I've ever bought was a used frame that I paid $1000 for.
> 
> I'm glad you a Scary have found each other. A match made in heaven. I'm sure you'll be misquoting and at each other's throats in no time.
> 
> ...


If the only expensive bike you have ever owned was a 1996 used Merlin you did not own the Ottrott and possibly rode it, or not.

Ya see, you are making these huge huge huge leaps with NO experience and that EXACTLY what marketing is but the secret is, something you have yet to figure out:

You drank the Kool Aid. We didnt


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> I'm guessing you're 26. You have the mouth of someone who's done a little bit, but doesn't think, or check facts, before they throw down.
> 
> I'm 39. I started building bikes and wheels as a teenager. Walked into a pro shop with I bike I built up when I was 18 and was hired on the spot. I worked in four nicer shops and for one supplier.
> 
> It's not that I have such a high opinion of my thoughts. It's just the contrast with how I view yours.


Well you're completely wrong as I am a Masters level racer (in my 40s) with quite a bit of education (that cost quite a bit more than the Ottrott you are waxing on about, more than several of them actually). As I said before, you are the real deal and I clearly am not. You win...


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*do you remember?*



Mr. Scary said:


> Well you're completely wrong as I am a Masters level racer (in my 40s) with quite a bit of education (that cost quite a bit more than the Ottrott you are waxing on about, more than several of them actually). As I said before, you are the real deal and I clearly am not. You win...


Do you remember getting up at 5, JUST to ride? Man, I do


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> If the only expensive bike you have ever owned was a 1996 used Merlin you did not own the Ottrott and possibly rode it, or not.
> 
> Ya see, you are making these huge huge huge leaps with NO experience and that EXACTLY what marketing is but the secret is, something you have yet to figure out:
> 
> You drank the Kool Aid. We didnt


Which leaps? I need to ride a bike to talk about how it is perceived in the market?

I don't think you know exactly what you're arguing against. What point do you think I was making?

Feel free to use the handy "quote" feature.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*huh*



rx-79g said:


> Which leaps? I need to ride a bike to talk about how it is perceived in the market?
> 
> I don't think you know exactly what you're arguing against. What point do you think I was making?
> 
> Feel free to use the handy "quote" feature.


You never made a point. I guess if I cared enough to agree or disagree it would mean something.

I like to ride bikes. After that, folks like you are a detail.


----------



## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

Could just be my eyes, but both look like they have larger-diameter tubes than the Ottrott, and both look to be all carbon rather than the perfect mysterious all-singing, all-dancing alchemy of ti and carbon.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike Overly said:


> Could just be my eyes, but both look like they have larger-diameter tubes than the Ottrott, and both look to be all carbon rather than the perfect mysterious all-singing, all-dancing alchemy of ti and carbon.


Yeah, the Ottrott is a larger size frame compared to the other two. 

1.5" (38.1mm) down tubes are pretty common on larger ti bikes. I know the Crumpton uses a 1.5. In both types of tubing the next smaller size is 1.375, or 34.9mm. That's what is used on small ti frames.

My point was just that the Ottrott tubes aren't "skinny". Their pretty much normal for carbon. I think Calfee uses even smaller tubes.

This type of bike isn't magical in ride or anything else. But it is a pretty deluxe way of sticking carbon tubes together - and that's why people buy them.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> You never made a point. I guess if I cared enough to agree or disagree it would mean something.
> 
> I like to ride bikes. After that, folks like you are a detail.


Clearly, you are above it all. Thanks for your contributions to the topic. 

You should find out what you're getting upset about before you start posting on it.


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

My dad is bigger than both your dad's!!


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Shaped tubing doesn't work at all, witness time trial bikes...


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> Shaped tubing doesn't work at all, witness time trial bikes...


From the context, you know I wasn't talking about aerodynamics.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> From the context, you know I wasn't talking about aerodynamics.


Right you were talking about strength, and I was saying that TT bikes are very strong yet their not round. Round tubes are the same strength around the entire axis-there is no minor or major axis; while oval tubes are stronger in the direction of the major axis but not so strong on the minor axis. Thus in the direction of the major axis the oval tube is stronger then the round tube. So if you want a stiffer bottom end you would have a oval shaped because it resist deflection better then a round tube. It's basically how and were shaped tubing is used.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> Right you were talking about strength, and I was saying that TT bikes are very strong yet their not round. Round tubes are the same strength around the entire axis-there is no minor or major axis; while oval tubes are stronger in the direction of the major axis but not so strong on the minor axis. Thus in the direction of the major axis the oval tube is stronger then the round tube. So if you want a stiffer bottom end you would have a oval shaped because it resist deflection better then a round tube. It's basically how and were shaped tubing is used.


An oval or other shaped tube will be stiffer in some planes, more flexible in others (for the same weight). It will generally not resist twisting/torque as well a round cross section.

It is easy to simplify the dynamics of bicycle frames down to a few competing input forces. But the reality is that the diamond frame makes the interaction of forces relatively complicated. If you're trying to make the bike stiff against the complex deflection and torque of a riding, round tubes will do that at the lowest weight - especially mid span.

Flaring tubes at the ends may also accomplish this goal, but now we're talking about the dyanmics of the joins. If greater join surface from a flared/shaped tube end decreases the the amount of material necessary to make the joint strong, then that's a winner. But if the round tubed join would have been strong enough, you just added weight.

Tube shaping isn't evil - with CF it adds so little weight that it is mostly a wash in what is already a lightweight frame. But as I pointed out, the very lightest frames default back to round.


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Unsubscribed from this nonsensical argument.


----------



## jlwdm (Nov 7, 2009)

Before you guys post anymore how about going back and slowly reading your prior posts. I am sure this will keep you from posting any more on this thread - at least I hope so.

Jeff


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

I spoke to Moots last week. 

They were very helpful with many suggestions. Corey took his time answering questions. 

It is rare that you can call a bicycle manufacturer and tell them what you want and have them say " yes..we will send you a blueprint and have you fill out a questionnaire and size report. Then you decide if it looks good for your needs". 

Wow! Let me call Giant about my TCR and tell them I want to change the angles on my next frame. I'll hold my breath. Plus, I rarely saw titanium frames breaking. Now with ultralight carbon on the scene I see so MANY broken frames. I've had 3 failures in the last couple years. 

With all the money I spend in this god forsaken addicting sport, perhaps I should sell all my bike crap and just go custom titanium. 
The bike will only be a pound heavier. So instead of 14.5 it's 15.5 pounds. Big deal. 

I rode a Litespeed Tuscany in 2003 for 100 miles. The ride was fantastic but I did not buy one. It was too flexy down low. I hear with bb30 and a larger 41 mm down tube, this is not an issue. Any 185 pounders out there on Ti?

Okay...in two months after taxes I am ordering one.


EDIT: Check out this Blog on the Moots Factory. A guy had a 15 year old frame warrantied. Now that's someone I want to buy from.
http://teamdicky.blogspot.com/2009/07/moots-factory-tour.html


----------



## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

skygodmatt said:


> I spoke to Moots last week.
> 
> They were very helpful with many suggestions. Corey took his time answering questions.
> 
> ...


You've only got 10 pounds on me and I am on a custom double butted Ti. Love it. In a trainer I can see the BB flex a bit, but don't feel that at all on the road. It is plenty comfy and I haven't noticed any lack of power to the rear wheel on the road.


----------



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

krisdrum said:


> You've only got 10 pounds on me and I am on a custom double butted Ti. Love it. In a trainer I can see the BB flex a bit, but don't feel that at all on the road. It is plenty comfy and I haven't noticed any lack of power to the rear wheel on the road.


Ya...in a trainer all frames flex like hell. Which model do you have?
How's the road feel?


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ttug said:


> Nah, its easier really.
> 
> When I repaied watches many years ago, his kind would show up. They talk about 10K plus watches all day. Might even own one or 2 used models.
> 
> Then they start picking on customers or making fun of people with cheaper watches/ or GOD FORBID they only spent 1 grand on a CHEAP ROLEX blah blah blah.Eventually, my normal course of action was to ask them to leave or have a cop haul them away. A waste of time actually.


You fix watches? How long ago was that? In the 60's? Because I can't remember when a new Rolex sold for $1,000 in my limited memory.


----------



## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

skygodmatt said:


> Ya...in a trainer all frames flex like hell. Which model do you have?
> How's the road feel?


My bike is from Soul Bikes and is a custom geo Corpus model (older model than what is currently on their site, Sean seems to have changed the spec a bit, I included the spec for what I am riding).

Road feel? It is great. I think "smooth" would be the operative word for me. It isn't so much a "jerk forward with every downstroke" type of ride, but more smooth and flowing. That isn't to say it doesn't respond when I put the power down. It definitely does and I have raced it a few times. But I'm also using really supple nice tires (Veloflex Pave) and good wheels (Easton Circuits) most of the time on it. Road feel to me comes mostly from your contact patch (aka your tire). As I believe others have said in this thread, it is less about frame material in my opinion. I have ridden that same tire/wheel combo on my other bikes and it similarly "smooths" the ride in comparison to other wheel/tire combos.

Do I think my ti frame is smoother than my alu frames head to head? Yes, but that could be coming from a number of factors outside just the material used. 

Ti to me is a premier material because it is lightweight, resilient/strong, not easily corroded, and relatively easy to repair. I think when you look at those factors, it stacks up very well against other frame materials.


----------



## armybikerider (Oct 27, 2009)

Aren't there monitors on this forum to stop this sort of drivel???


----------



## jlwdm (Nov 7, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> That shows (if true) that ABG demand is down - which could be for a lot of reasons having little to do with titanium.



"If true" from Tom Kellogg - seems like a good source. His comments on what he is doing with Seven and ABG now are interesting.

Jeff


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Omg*



froze said:


> You fix watches? How long ago was that? In the 60's? Because I can't remember when a new Rolex sold for $1,000 in my limited memory.


I repaired for 9 years in the 80's. Are you seriously thinking I would ever pay retail or a watch, and yes, it was a very very USED redone and possibly fake Rolex that the expert had. and this expert is just like skippy here with his stunnming knowledge of frames. He kept saying a grand over and over again, do you really think that when a moron walks in I will aregue with a moron? Nah, arguing with a moron makes you a moron. I am not calling you or anyone a moron.

Look at it this way. I felt sorry for the guy, I recalled the details he relayed it was just a memory and really, my realit shot is this.

Have you ever dropped a guy or gal on a really very very expensive 8K+ bike and this individual jut droned on and on about the material, the ride and evem after, putting an hour on this fella, in a century, I was having my third beer and finger banging his hot girlfriend while he told everyone about how the material ride was oh so superior.

WTF cares? Dont you realize that people like his just suck the joy out of a sport and really lets face it, who cares what you ride. STFU and ride.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*this is total BS*



krisdrum said:


> My bike is from Soul Bikes and is a custom geo Corpus model (older model than what is currently on their site, Sean seems to have changed the spec a bit, I included the spec for what I am riding).
> 
> Road feel? It is great. I think "smooth" would be the operative word for me. It isn't so much a "jerk forward with every downstroke" type of ride, but more smooth and flowing. That isn't to say it doesn't respond when I put the power down. It definitely does and I have raced it a few times. But I'm also using really supple nice tires (Veloflex Pave) and good wheels (Easton Circuits) most of the time on it. Road feel to me comes mostly from your contact patch (aka your tire). As I believe others have said in this thread, it is less about frame material in my opinion. I have ridden that same tire/wheel combo on my other bikes and it similarly "smooths" the ride in comparison to other wheel/tire combos.
> 
> ...


Ti is a pain in the&^$% to weld, repairing it? It costs, lots. There is no such thing as a premiere material, builders use what the markets wants. Tomorrow, it could be used tampons,


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> Ti is a pain in the&^$% to weld, repairing it? It costs, lots. There is no such thing as a premiere material, builders use what the markets wants. Tomorrow, it could be used tampons,


I don't think welding a new tube into a frame is that much of a pain for someone who is already set up for Ti building. And not having to repaint anything is certainly an advantage for the majority of Ti frames that have no paint.

Really, just about any sort of frame can be repaired. Lugged bikes used to be lauded for their repairability, but these days it is impossible to find people who will do a quick tube swap and repaint for less than the cost of just buying a less expensive frame. 

So I don't really disagree with you - everything is repairable, and nothing is cheap to repair. I think it makes sense to not really consider frame repair as an important factor in selecting a bike, and worry more about the cost of replacement or resistance to damage. I think Ti is pretty resistant to damage.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*it can be*



rx-79g said:


> I don't think welding a new tube into a frame is that much of a pain for someone who is already set up for Ti building. And not having to repaint anything is certainly an advantage for the majority of Ti frames that have no paint.
> 
> Really, just about any sort of frame can be repaired. Lugged bikes used to be lauded for their repairability, but these days it is impossible to find people who will do a quick tube swap and repaint for less than the cost of just buying a less expensive frame.
> 
> So I don't really disagree with you - everything is repairable, and nothing is cheap to repair. I think it makes sense to not really consider frame repair as an important factor in selecting a bike, and worry more about the cost of replacement or resistance to damage. I think Ti is pretty resistant to damage.


All material when designed well and welded correctly (metals or alloys) are rather esistant to damage. Some better than others, sure.

However, bad welds, fail, Regardless of material


----------



## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

ttug said:


> Ti is a pain in the&^$% to weld, repairing it? It costs, lots. There is no such thing as a premiere material, builders use what the markets wants. Tomorrow, it could be used tampons,


Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. Damage ti and you can re-weld a new tube on. I mentioned nothing about price. Simply said it was possible. Possible with steel as well. Not possible with carbon and not possible with alu as I understand it (since Alu needs to be heat treated). That was my point. Nothing more, nothing less. So, I'm not sure BS was in order.

As for the premier comment, I think Ti has a reputation and allure that alot of other materials do not. That could come from the expense of it, the difficulty of working with it, or who knows what.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> All material when designed well and welded correctly (metals or alloys) are rather esistant to damage. Some better than others, sure.
> 
> However, bad welds, fail, Regardless of material


I meant that Ti tubes are more resistant to impact damage than some other materials, like thin wall carbon or aluminum. The joints of all materials are generally the most damage resistant part of any bicycle.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*nope*



rx-79g said:


> I meant that Ti tubes are more resistant to impact damage than some other materials, like thin wall carbon or aluminum. The joints of all materials are generally the most damage resistant part of any bicycle.


In the instance of Ti for bikes, possibly. In the instance of the raw material Ti, nope.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I don't think TI is all the expensive to fix, otherwise you wouldn't be able to buy a full TI bike with CF forks and all Dura Ace components for $2,000. If TI was expensive to fix then it only stands to reason it would be expensive to build new, but with a new TI frame starting at $1000 including the fork and the profit margin, then I doubt fixing a TI bike would cost more then $200 at the manufactures cost and probably way less then that. I wouldn't be surprised if the shipping cost of the frame exceeds the cost to fix it.


----------



## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

FWIW I bought Ti because this is the material (today) that is least likely to break in case of an accident. I figured if I spend ~$5K on a frameset I might as well get one least likely to break and has the lowest overall maintenance (i.e. not worries about surface scratches, rust, fatigue, ride quality, etc)..... Carbon is super strong but not strong in all directions so a sideways kick could destroy the frame. Steel needs some maintenance to avoid rust and is heavier than Ti. Aluminium is relatively harsh riding (I used to own one in 2003) and this leaves Ti.... 

re modern Ti frame being flexy, I think this is all in your head. I am not heavy, ~72kg (155-160lbs?) and I cant feel any flex on any frame. I dont think any rider this side of ~200-220lbs will flex any modern frame today to significant measure - apart from some elite sprinter-types (Cancellara, Boonen, etc).


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ti can break just like any other material, but it will take a lot more pressure to get to that point then it will just snap. There's an ongoing drama about a Merlin TI frame breaking going on right here at: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=3160708#post3160708

So they can break depending on how well it was made or what kind of abuse it took.

Steel is a lifetime material. I have a 26 year old steel bike that I have ridden over 160,000 miles on in all sorts of weather...except snow. This frame has never been treated internally to prevent rust, and there is not one spot of rust on it anywhere-inside or out; like wise with my other steel bikes. In 07 I bought at Mercian Vincintore and I had that frame treated, though not needed, but they did it for free. If you want to be safe then just have a steel frame treated, no big deal. I do some prevention tactics that I'm not sure if they worked or not, but I grease my seat post and seat tube about the first inch with automotive grease then insert and wipe off the ooze. I also have a tail lights with the rubber pads pressed against the area where the post and tube meet. I do the same with front flashers mounted to the stem pressed against the headset but you can't do that with the modern threadless design. I also wash my bike using FinishLine bike wash because it has rust inhibitors, and then I wax my bikes with Meguiars NXT wax. You do have to take care of your stuff if you want it to last.

TI can be flexy depending on the geometry and size of tubing used. I test rode a Merlin Extralite years ago and shun away from it when I got the bottom bracket to flex enough under hard power to make the chain rub the front derailleur, I can't do that with any of my steel bikes. And by the way, I only weigh 165 pounds so I'm not a super strong Clydesdale, though I use to race. BUT, I believe that some of the slightly heavier TI frames made today are not as flexy as the Extralite; so I am now considering buying a TI Motobecane LeChamp SL from BikesDirect.com. You might want to take a gander at those because you don't have to spend $5,000 to get a TI bike unless your looking for something specific and need to have it.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> Ti can break just like any other material, but it will take a lot more pressure to get to that point then it will just snap. There's an ongoing drama about a Merlin TI frame breaking going on right here at: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=3160708#post3160708
> 
> So they can break depending on how well it was made or what kind of abuse it took.
> 
> ...


This kind of thing is oft repeated, but really doesn't stand up to reality.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rinard_frametest.html

Ti bikes flex the same, OR LESS, than steel bikes. Older steel bikes are generally the most flexible frames because they have the narrowest tubing. The new oversize steel bikes are stiffer, but so are the TI bikes with 38.1 downtubes.

There are a lot of Extralight owners out there (myself included) and almost no complaints about that model being whippy.



ttug said:


> In the instance of Ti for bikes, possibly. In the instance of the raw material Ti, nope.


Thank heaven we're on a bike forum and no one is riding a block of raw material.

We can go round and round on this stuff, but with correctly executed welds (which the Cielo mentioned probably lacks), a ti bike will probably put up with more cyclic stress than steel. And because of the median wall thickness, it resists denting better than aluminum and ultralight steel. The thick dropouts are also pretty much impossible to bend, yet steel dropouts are easily bent back to shape - no one respaces Ti dropouts.

I once let a Litespeed Classic fall over into the sharp edge of an aluminum doorway. It wacked it pretty hard, but didn't dent it and just lightly scuffed the impact point. Had that been a current carbon bike I would have likely had to send it to Calfee. It would have shattered the paint off a steel bike and dented aluminum. I am pleased with the durability of titanium. The aircraft industry uses Ti structurally and in high pressure hydraulic systems for a reason. Ti is the choice for dropouts on the highest end carbon frames and forks. It's tough, light stuff.

Other materials are cool, too. But there is no reason to perpetuate myths about titanium's shortcomings. When built right it looks, rides, weighs and lasts wonderfully. For bikes, steel is great for ride and style, aluminum is the stiffest material (and least likely to fatigue fail because of it), carbon is the lightest and wood the prettiest.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> This kind of thing is oft repeated, but really doesn't stand up to reality.
> 
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rinard_frametest.html
> 
> ...


I understand what your saying, but I do know from first hand experience what happened when I test rode the Extralight, and it was flexy enough in the bottom bracket area that I was able to get the front derailleur to rub the chain...ON BOTH SIDES! I was cranking all out going up a grade (percent of grade unknown). Now did I notice this flexing riding normally? No, but it was there when pressed hard. It's not like this is the only bike I was able to get to flex like that, I test rode a Peugeot PX10, Vitus 979, and another brand that escapes me, owned a 77 Trek TX900 that did the same thing which was one of the reasons I sold it. In fact that was one of the ways I determined a bike to be good is if the chain didn't rub the front derailleur even if just one side, and the brakes in the rear didn't rub the rim under hard mashing. You can think whatever you want about all of this but I know what my experiences were. I'm probably not strong enough today to make a bike flex like that since I no longer race and just ride for distance and pleasure. And you mentioning Sheldon Brown who says this can happen, did you read the whole site?

And then you said Extralite owners have ALMOST no complaints...so you mean you have heard of a few complaints haven't you? I know I have on other forums about those flexing.

By the way TI does dent, just do a search on the web and you find plenty of examples. Yes they survive dents better then lightweight steel but they can dent.

Wood and bamboo make very cool looking bikes, I would never buy one, not for any particular reason though. Did you know they have been making bikes out of wood for years in Africa? It's just now coming to America, mostly as a novelty item.


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> ...aluminum is the stiffest material (*and least likely to fatigue fail because of it*)...


Sorry, but this isn't true. Aluminum has no fatigue limit; ferrous alloys and titanium alloys both do. Because of its lack of fatigue limit, aluminum structures will eventually fail from fatigue even from small stress amplitudes while steel and titanium structures have a distinct fatigue limit, an amplitude below which there appears to be no number of cycles that will cause failure.


----------



## Mattman (Jan 28, 2005)

*Ti is alive!*

In my experience Ti is alive. My old Litespeed was a little too lively for my taste. Oh, you probably were not talking about ride quality.

For those who like it Ti is a great material, and in my reasonably well informed opinion it's probably the one material that would truly last a lifetime. 

I'm a steel guy and everyone says steel lasts a lifetime and that's mostly true. A steel bike does lose something and become a bit dead after many, many miles. We are talking decades for even pretty high mileage recreational types, but I've never heard of this for Ti.

Light, strong, won't rust, what's not to like..........maybe cost, and that springy feel many seem to have. Though in all honesty I have never ridden any of the higher end, newer Ti bikes with shaped OS tubing which are supposed to be much stiffer.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Scooper said:


> Sorry, but this isn't true. Aluminum has no fatigue limit; ferrous alloys and titanium alloys both do. Because of its lack of fatigue limit, aluminum structures will eventually fail from fatigue even from small stress amplitudes while steel and titanium structures have a distinct fatigue limit, an amplitude below which there appears to be no number of cycles that will cause failure.


I'm sorry, but that's the difference between book learning and practical application.

Stiff aluminum frames have been shown in tests to have the longest cycle life of any bicycles, despite the material's shortcomings. That is because their stiffness is so high that the cycle amplitude is much lower than other materials, so the frame actually absorbs less fatigue and lasts longer.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm

You'll note the stiffest frames at the top, and the most flexible frames (steel, in this particular test) at the bottom. 

I have no doubt that a steel or ti frame of equal rigidity would outlast an aluminum one, but reality is what you see there.


----------



## jpap (Jun 21, 2006)

acid_rider said:


> FWIW I bought Ti because this is the material (today) that is least likely to break in case of an accident. I figured if I spend ~$5K on a frameset I might as well get one least likely to break and has the lowest overall maintenance (i.e. not worries about surface scratches, rust, fatigue, ride quality, etc)..... Carbon is super strong but not strong in all directions so a sideways kick could destroy the frame. Steel needs some maintenance to avoid rust and is heavier than Ti. Aluminium is relatively harsh riding (I used to own one in 2003) and this leaves Ti....
> 
> re modern Ti frame being flexy, I think this is all in your head. I am not heavy, ~72kg (155-160lbs?) and I cant feel any flex on any frame. I dont think any rider this side of ~200-220lbs will flex any modern frame today to significant measure - apart from some elite sprinter-types (Cancellara, Boonen, etc).



Hey Acid how you enjoying the Baum?. I'm loving mine. Looking out for an orange Romano down Beach road but haven't seen it yet.


----------



## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*love baum ti*



jpap said:


> Hey Acid how you enjoying the Baum?. I'm loving mine. Looking out for an orange Romano down Beach road but haven't seen it yet.


Love romano ti. Beach road on weekend mornings.


----------



## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

I like pineapple but can't stand it when it's on a pizza.

Wierd huh?


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mattman said:


> I'm a steel guy and everyone says steel lasts a lifetime and that's mostly true. A steel bike does lose something and become a bit dead after many, many miles. We are talking decades for even pretty high mileage recreational types, but I've never heard of this for Ti.
> .


This is more fairy tales. Sheldon Brown rode his bike to work most of the time, and the bike he rode to work most of time was a 1918 Ranger and it was not dead even though it was made of gas pipe. Chris Davies had just one bike, a steel bike, on which he put 906,900 miles and the frame was still going strong. In 1937 Ossie Nicholson of Australia recorded 62,657 again on inferior steel then what we have today. There was a guy I believed lived in NYC who was mentally challenged, had documentation to prove he had over a million miles on his steel bike; he was featured some years ago on Parade mag but I couldn't find him doing a web search. One of my bikes has over 150,000 miles on it. when it reached 125,000 miles I thought the bike was nearing the end so I took to a trusted LBS who had their mechanic, who raced the RAAM, ride it...he thought the bike felt like it was new and not to worry about it. He also said steel bikes will last several lifetimes and not to worry about fatigue.

Point is, before a steel bike reaches it's fatigue level you'll be dead and most likely any child you handed it down to. The only early death that will kill steel is rust, and rust comes from poor maintenance. None of my steel bikes have any rust either internally or externally.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> This is more fairy tales. Sheldon Brown rode his bike to work most of the time, and the bike he rode to work most of time was a 1918 Ranger and it was not dead even though it was made of gas pipe. Chris Davies had just one bike, a steel bike, on which he put 906,900 miles and the frame was still going strong. In 1937 Ossie Nicholson of Australia recorded 62,657 again on inferior steel then what we have today. There was a guy I believed lived in NYC who was mentally challenged, had documentation to prove he had over a million miles on his steel bike; he was featured some years ago on Parade mag but I couldn't find him doing a web search. One of my bikes has over 150,000 miles on it. when it reached 125,000 miles I thought the bike was nearing the end so I took to a trusted LBS who had their mechanic, who raced the RAAM, ride it...he thought the bike felt like it was new and not to worry about it. He also said steel bikes will last several lifetimes and not to worry about fatigue.
> 
> Point is, before a steel bike reaches it's fatigue level you'll be dead and most likely any child you handed it down to. The only early death that will kill steel is rust, and rust comes from poor maintenance. None of my steel bikes have any rust either internally or externally.


Having seen a few bikes with genuine fatigue failures (generally broken chainstays) I would not agree that steel will last many lifetimes. Lighter weight steels that aren't overly stiff will eventually work harden if ridden by someone who puts out the watts for enough miles. Tom Kellogg reports wearing out some of his own steel bikes.

But most of us don't have to worry. And the frame is going to fail in one spot before the whole structure changes - so the liveliness thing doesn't add up.


----------



## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

hfc said:


> I like pineapple but can't stand it when it's on a pizza.
> 
> Wierd huh?


Your a idiot.

//someone please lock this thread.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> Having seen a few bikes with genuine fatigue failures (generally broken chainstays) I would not agree that steel will last many lifetimes. Lighter weight steels that aren't overly stiff will eventually work harden if ridden by someone who puts out the watts for enough miles. Tom Kellogg reports wearing out some of his own steel bikes.
> 
> But most of us don't have to worry. And the frame is going to fail in one spot before the whole structure changes - so the liveliness thing doesn't add up.


Yet on E-bay and Craigslist all over this country are surviving relics from the 40's and the 50's and the 60's with hardly any rust, if there is it's surface rust which is easily remedied and people ride the bikes. Sheldon Brown's 1918 Ranger he rode to work had a rusty patina over the entire bike when he found it many years ago...he never restored it just rode it as it was and it never broke after years of riding it to work and back. And even TI has been noted to crack, there are examples of this on this forum as well as other forums.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying steel will never fatigue, all materials will eventually fatigue. An ultralight steel racing bike will fatigue faster then a touring steel bike given the same amount of work force, same amount of cycles, and same amount of time, same steel tube set. If a pro track racer (who puts out more watts then even Lance Armstrong can) hammers a steel bike for a long time I sure eventually it would break, but so would TI, AL and CF. The question is when and how (how meaning sudden disastrous failure, or slowly.

The ultralight racing steel tube sets personally I won't buy, just as I wouldn't buy an ultralight TI, AL or CF. For one, I don't race so there's no need for it; and for two, I don't want a fragile bike I have to worry about; and three, since I don't race I can't get those for free!


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> Yet on E-bay and Craigslist all over this country are surviving relics from the 40's and the 50's and the 60's with hardly any rust, if there is it's surface rust which is easily remedied and people ride the bikes. Sheldon Brown's 1918 Ranger he rode to work had a rusty patina over the entire bike when he found it many years ago...he never restored it just rode it as it was and it never broke after years of riding it to work and back. And even TI has been noted to crack, there are examples of this on this forum as well as other forums.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying steel will never fatigue, all materials will eventually fatigue. An ultralight steel racing bike will fatigue faster then a touring steel bike given the same amount of work force, same amount of cycles, and same amount of time, same steel tube set. If a pro track racer (who puts out more watts then even Lance Armstrong can) hammers a steel bike for a long time I sure eventually it would break, but so would TI, AL and CF. The question is when and how (how meaning sudden disastrous failure, or slowly.
> 
> The ultralight racing steel tube sets personally I won't buy, just as I wouldn't buy an ultralight TI, AL or CF. For one, I don't race so there's no need for it; and for two, I don't want a fragile bike I have to worry about; and three, since I don't race I can't get those for free!


Don't you think even '80s Columbus SL is "ultralight" when compared to the tubing used between 1919 and 1950? Sheldon's old bike probably had 8 pounds of steel in it and was being ridden pretty gently.

Like I said before - you can make a bike of any material so it won't wear out. If it is thick enough, stiff enough or ridden softly enough there won't be cycles of enough amplitude to fatigue the material badly enough to fail. It isn't that it isn't slowly fatiguing - but if it takes 50 years to cause only 20% failure fatigue, it won't seem like the bike is ever going to break.

The weird thing with Ti is how the failures are always related to welding heat affected areas. Tom Kellogg is apparently still riding one of the first Ti frames Merlin's submarine welders tacked together in the late '80s. Ti + expert weld = a lot of resistance to fatigue. The question is, how many Ti frames are welded to that standard?


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

My point was that poor metallurgy of the early 1900's, regardless of weight, held up. The Ranger, if my memory serves me right, was a racing bike in its day, yes it probably weight at least 8 pounds, but it was very low tech compared to more modern stuff. No telling how it was treated because Sheldon didn't know the history of it. 

But like you said it could take 50 years of constant riding to fatigue out a frame, but by then, if the bike was purchased when you were 20 would then be 70. So if you lost 20% of it's life so what? YOUR TOO OLD TO CRANK AT YOUTHFUL RACING LEVELS!!! Thus the bike will continue to function just fine right up to you get too old to ride.

When I use to race I saw steel bikes break, all that I can recall broke due to bad brazing. I never saw a steel tube, not at a brazed area, just break due to riding; accidents bent frames but still would not break them. Even the TI/CF frame that InfoPete had break on him here on this forum broke due to a bad weld on the TI dropout of his Cielo. Most frame failures when it comes to metal frames break due to bad welds or brazing.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> My point was that poor metallurgy of the early 1900's, regardless of weight, held up. The Ranger, if my memory serves me right, was a racing bike in its day, yes it probably weight at least 8 pounds, but it was very low tech compared to more modern stuff. No telling how it was treated because Sheldon didn't know the history of it.
> 
> But like you said it could take 50 years of constant riding to fatigue out a frame, but by then, if the bike was purchased when you were 20 would then be 70. So if you lost 20% of it's life so what? YOUR TOO OLD TO CRANK AT YOUTHFUL RACING LEVELS!!! Thus the bike will continue to function just fine right up to you get too old to ride.
> 
> When I use to race I saw steel bikes break, all that I can recall broke due to bad brazing. I never saw a steel tube, not at a brazed area, just break due to riding; accidents bent frames but still would not break them. Even the TI/CF frame that InfoPete had break on him here on this forum broke due to a bad weld on the TI dropout of his Cielo. Most frame failures when it comes to metal frames break due to bad welds or brazing.


Please re-read my last post about Ti failures and previous posts about other failures.

As I said before, I've never seen Ti that didn't fail at a joint (indicating imperfect joining), but I have seen mid-span fatigue failures on steel, usually chainstays. AND, Tom Kellogg reports the same difference in his own Ti vs. steel products.


As to old frames, I think you're missing the fact that lower grade steels do not fatigue in the same manner as hardened tool steels. If you make the walls thick enough you can make a bike out of iron and it will not change much structurally no matter how it's ridden or even bent. Make the walls thin enough that you have to use high grade, heat treated steel and cyclic damage changes the sturcture of the steel much quicker. Similar to the difference between abusing an ax and a fine kitchen knife.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> Please re-read my last post about Ti failures and previous posts about other failures.
> 
> As I said before, I've never seen Ti that didn't fail at a joint (indicating imperfect joining), but I have seen mid-span fatigue failures on steel, usually chainstays. AND, Tom Kellogg reports the same difference in his own Ti vs. steel products.
> 
> ...



I'm not arguing with you, nor am I saying I don't believe you, in my 55+ years of living and 45 of those riding bikes and 15 of those racing I've never seen a steel frame break midspan. I have seen rear stays break but they were at either the dropouts or at the bottom bracket where the either a lug or a weld fail. I also never seen TI or AL break midspan. but I have seen CF break midspan mostly in the stays. I did once see an oddity where a TI frame (Litespeed Blade) develop a tear starting at the water bottle boss and it kept going till the tear was about 3 inches long looking like a can opener had gotten to it. Another claim that AGB group refused to warranty by the way. Granted I haven't been in every spot the world at every time frame so an event as you describe could have happened, but it could happen to any material.

And I'm not disagreeing with you about thin wall constructed bikes REGARDLESS of material used.

And on top of all that you haven't seen it either!! Why do I say that you scream? Because your statements about TI not breaking midspan is almost word for word what Habanero TI bikes says: "You're not likely to ever see a titanium bicycle frame broken in the middle of a tube, but only at the welds." from: http://www.habcycles.com/techstuf.html

Litespeed goes on to say that your not likely to see a TI frame broken mid way, the key word is likely, meaning you could see it but it would be very rare...just as it is with steel.

As far as steel going "dead" with use is a bunch of hooey! In fact Jobst Brandt addresses this, see: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/section-44.html AND SEE: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/section-43.html

I happen to like steel and TI, in fact my next bike will be a TI bike, so that's that.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> I'm not arguing with you, nor am I saying I don't believe you, in my 55+ years of living and 45 of those riding bikes and 15 of those racing I've never seen a steel frame break midspan. I have seen rear stays break but they were at either the dropouts or at the bottom bracket where the either a lug or a weld fail. I also never seen TI or AL break midspan. but I have seen CF break midspan mostly in the stays. I did once see an oddity where a TI frame (Litespeed Blade) develop a tear starting at the water bottle boss and it kept going till the tear was about 3 inches long looking like a can opener had gotten to it. Another claim that AGB group refused to warranty by the way. Granted I haven't been in every spot the world at every time frame so an event as you describe could have happened, but it could happen to any material.
> 
> And I'm not disagreeing with you about thin wall constructed bikes REGARDLESS of material used.
> 
> ...


I already agreed about the dead thing in post #154. The whole structure isn't going to change faster than the one part that breaks first.

Here's a broken chainstay away from the heat zone:









A tig'd steel frame broken several inches fromt the headtube:








Those are the two most common failure areas from fatigue.

Hey, I'm building myself a steel frame right now. It is great stuff. I like Ti even more because of the neato blend of properties is has - but there isn't a wonder material out there. (Though I would like to see what could be done with boron.) All this stuff has limits, and some of the most immediate limits are user error when building with any of these materials. 

Right now, if I wanted a frame that would last forever but also ride nice, it would be a conservatively butted Ti frame executed by a master welder to minimize heat damage. And I'd probably stuff a welded aluminum fork into it. But I'm not likely to wear out any one of my six or more frames anytime soon - especially if I keep building them.


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> I'm sorry, but that's the difference between book learning and practical application.
> 
> Stiff aluminum frames have been shown in tests to have the longest cycle life of any bicycles, despite the material's shortcomings. That is because their stiffness is so high that the cycle amplitude is much lower than other materials, so the frame actually absorbs less fatigue and lasts longer.
> 
> ...


There's lots of criticism of the EFBe fatigue testing methodology:

http://www.tomsarazac.com/tom/opinions/frame-test.html

The linked Don Ferris (Anvil Bikeworks) article on EFBe tests isn't available right now as Don is redoing his website.


----------



## Trek_envy (Jun 15, 2004)

*Definitely not dead...*

If there are people who buy them - they are not dead. I personally cannot say I have had the pleasure of riding one, as I am one of the carbon drones.

All I can say is this. Whatever the material of you bike, if you like riding it - that's what is important. I personally love the feel of my sharks fin Madone. Is it the stiffest/Lightest/Fastest? No. Am I slower/faster because of it? No.

As far as cheaper to make. Carbon by a long shot. Monkeys can lay up molds. Welding Ti takes some VERY specialized training, and a lot experience. These frames are the work of craftsmen.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Scooper said:


> There's lots of criticism of the EFBe fatigue testing methodology:
> 
> http://www.tomsarazac.com/tom/opinions/frame-test.html
> 
> The linked Don Ferris (Anvil Bikeworks) article on EFBe tests isn't available right now as Don is redoing his website.


I wouldn't be surprised if someone wasn't pleased with the science behind these somewhat informal tests. 

But I would be surprised if anyone could demonstrate that stiff aluminum frames are wearing out and cracking - which seemed to be the point you were making.

What's even stranger is that I never remember seeing a Vitus with fatigue failed tubing, nor can I find one online - just bonding failures. Let's hear it for not heating the tubes.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Here is a pic of a cracked TI frame and it's not on the weld: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...10A31639099AAF573628CC1FB&first=1&FORM=IDFRIR

Here's another howbeit weird crack: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...10A31B931439B6823E5930434&first=1&FORM=IDFRIR

Another similar as above: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...92E272FA7C45C81D128C97018&first=1&FORM=IDFRIR

It sounds like though that unless a qualified welder welds the TI frame is to stay away from TI frames? How do you know if the welder is qualified? Merlin uses supposedly qualified welders, and they should if their building $8,000 bikes, yet their having weld failures and won't honor the warranty; the same with Litespeed (their both part of the AGB family).


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> Here is a pic of a cracked TI frame and it's not on the weld: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...10A31639099AAF573628CC1FB&first=1&FORM=IDFRIR
> 
> Here's another howbeit weird crack: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...10A31B931439B6823E5930434&first=1&FORM=IDFRIR
> 
> ...


You just posted 3 pictures of cracks that started at welds. They might not have continued cracking along the weld, but they clearly started in the Heat Affected Zone and propogated from there. 

The HAZ is the reason tubes are butted. It is the area that is going to lose some or all of the mechanical properties the material is gotten from being formed into tubing. The weld itself is an un-heat treated casting. Both areas on Ti can fall victim to contamination from oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen and non-gaseous crud. 

All the good names in Ti use highly qualified welders. Even the best welder can get his oxygen shielding off, miss a bit of gunk, go over the same area too slowly, etc. That's where the Ti failures come from for the most part. That, and materials that aren't thick enough to absorb the heat - part of the reason some of Litespeeds sub-2 lbs. bikes had a higher failure rate.

The failure rate of all high end ti bikes is pretty damn low, even if ABG is pissing us off this month.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*uh no*



rx-79g said:


> You just posted 3 pictures of cracks that started at welds. They might not have continued cracking along the weld, but they clearly started in the Heat Affected Zone and propogated from there.
> 
> The HAZ is the reason tubes are butted. It is the area that is going to lose some or all of the mechanical properties the material is gotten from being formed into tubing. The weld itself is an un-heat treated casting. Both areas on Ti can fall victim to contamination from oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen and non-gaseous crud.
> 
> ...


By your own admission, your best bike is a used Merlin. You cant just make it all up. Its a huge logical fallacy to assert qnything about frames which you dont own and have not ridden. ANY frame can fail, from ANY maker. High end or not and as to the chance that high end makers fail less....uh, you do know that folks who were making the lightest bikes, tend to be the higher end builders. Recall Merlins fiasco. AND again, those did tend to fail at a higher rate........

Bottom line again, I think its great that you can just tell us all about the material ad nauseum, never be wrong, never be in error, and yet to date, you say you own a used Ti bike and have little or no experience with high end bikes as far as riding them. Personally, and I do stress, personally, I ride the bike that fits and that I can afford. My ego is intact, I am ok with that.

If you are using adjectives like expensive, high end etc etc etc as some sort of homage, odds are you cant afford it or you are one of those irritating fellows who thinks in some way, prestige and material can replace hours in a saddle. Its not a thing of admiration to be in hock to your armpits to ride a bicycle. It can show dedication, but, ya know, its a bicycle.

I personally, dont care at all, but for those who do, more power to you


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

AGB pissin us off this month? I've seen nothing but complaints on this and other forums whenever a warranty issue arises for the last 3 maybe 4 years.

I'm serious looking at the TI bikes from Motebecane sold by Bikes Direct because their the lowest costing TI bikes I've found that looked good and came with good components. I looked at the Habanero, who were the 2nd lowest price TI I could find, but even those by the time you add all Ultegra components was about $1,000 more. I'm not racing so I don't care to have the lightest bike on the market, but I want to experience TI without spending 4 or 5k to do it. Not that I'm cheap...but I am frugal; I went on a business/vacation trip to England, while there I took a side trip to Derby and had a custom built Mercian Vincitore made (which took about 3 months so they shipped it to me), and if you know what those cost then you know I could afford a more expensive TI. But for me since I can't have a custom TI bike made with fancy lugs, fancy paint etc then why bother spending a bunch of money for a bike that is not all that artistic? Weird logic huh? And since I haven't heard of any complaints about the Motobecane, in fact all I've heard is praises about the bike and about Bikes Direct, I figure what the heck I can't go wrong. 

RX79G; I'm not in to all the harassment others feel incline to give out unless they start with me. You've been cordial so I don't care how much or how little you know, I usually check info I'm not familiar with on the internet anyways. And I haven't found anything you said to be out of line, maybe some personal opinions that have no right or wrong answer, but then so does everyone else including me. You seem to be an even tempered person so I know what others have said don't bother you the least bit.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> By your own admission, your best bike is a used Merlin. You cant just make it all up. Its a huge logical fallacy to assert qnything about frames which you dont own and have not ridden. ANY frame can fail, from ANY maker. High end or not and as to the chance that high end makers fail less....uh, you do know that folks who were making the lightest bikes, tend to be the higher end builders. Recall Merlins fiasco. AND again, those did tend to fail at a higher rate........
> 
> Bottom line again, I think its great that you can just tell us all about the material ad nauseum, never be wrong, never be in error, and yet to date, you say you own a used Ti bike and have little or no experience with high end bikes as far as riding them. Personally, and I do stress, personally, I ride the bike that fits and that I can afford. My ego is intact, I am ok with that.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about now? I have owned six titanium bicycles from Litespeed (Lynskey), Lemond and Merlin. They are all from the '90s, and were as nice as anything made then, and only different details from the bikes that Seven and Lynskey still make. Seven is where many of the Merlin employees went after the Mass. shop closed - what "fiasco"?

I use words like "high end" to try and include all the established builders who use the correct practices, and exclude builders like Pride Cycles who's frames show obvious signs of contamination or heat damage. That isn't about bling - it's just that budget Ti, at least here in the US, doesn't seem to work out.

WTF is your point about what I ride or don't ride? I'm talking about metalurgy, engineering and failure rates, not winning races. There doesn't seem to be any logical connection between your rant and my posts.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*really?*



rx-79g said:


> What are you talking about now? I have owned six titanium bicycles from Litespeed (Lynskey), Lemond and Merlin. They are all from the '90s, and were as nice as anything made then, and only different details from the bikes that Seven and Lynskey still make. Seven is where many of the Merlin employees went after the Mass. shop closed - what "fiasco"?
> 
> I use words like "high end" to try and include all the established builders who use the correct practices, and exclude builders like Pride Cycles who's frames show obvious signs of contamination or heat damage. That isn't about bling - it's just that budget Ti, at least here in the US, doesn't seem to work out.
> 
> WTF is your point about what I ride or don't ride? I'm talking about metalurgy, engineering and failure rates, not winning races. There doesn't seem to be any logical connection between your rant and my posts.


You said

"The most expensive bike I've ever bought was a used frame that I paid $1000 for. "

So you own all of those bikes and paid less than a grand for each?

RIIIIGHTYO

Tell ya what, I agree to disagree at this point


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> AGB pissin us off this month? I've seen nothing but complaints on this and other forums whenever a warranty issue arises for the last 3 maybe 4 years.
> 
> I'm serious looking at the TI bikes from Motebecane sold by Bikes Direct because their the lowest costing TI bikes I've found that looked good and came with good components. I looked at the Habanero, who were the 2nd lowest price TI I could find, but even those by the time you add all Ultegra components was about $1,000 more. I'm not racing so I don't care to have the lightest bike on the market, but I want to experience TI without spending 4 or 5k to do it. Not that I'm cheap...but I am frugal; I went on a business/vacation trip to England, while there I took a side trip to Derby and had a custom built Mercian Vincitore made (which took about 3 months so they shipped it to me), and if you know what those cost then you know I could afford a more expensive TI. But for me since I can't have a custom TI bike made with fancy lugs, fancy paint etc then why bother spending a bunch of money for a bike that is not all that artistic? Weird logic huh? And since I haven't heard of any complaints about the Motobecane, in fact all I've heard is praises about the bike and about Bikes Direct, I figure what the heck I can't go wrong.
> 
> RX79G; I'm not in to all the harassment others feel incline to give out unless they start with me. You've been cordial so I don't care how much or how little you know, I usually check info I'm not familiar with on the internet anyways. And I haven't found anything you said to be out of line, maybe some personal opinions that have no right or wrong answer, but then so does everyone else including me. You seem to be an even tempered person so I know what others have said don't bother you the least bit.


Hi Froze,

I'm enjoying our discussion as well - a little debate gets to the heart of things.

Hab and "Motobecane" are, I recall, both welded by XACD in China. XACD has a reasonable reputation, as long as they aren't developing products. Their Ti forks, especially the disc equipped ones, are dangerous. But their welds seem to be of good quality. I have heard bike shop employees grumbling about Hab failures, but I haven't heard anything outside to support that. You can also get XACD to make you a frame directly for about $800. 

The BD bike is known for comfort over sportiness and may not have the zing that you want. That's the way it was designed and frequently reviewed.

If you want to spend the minimum, I think used Ti bikes make the most sense, or going with a Lynskey made frame like those carried by Planet X UK or a Cooper. One of my favorite rides is a Basso Gap Ti Litespeed welded in '95. The finish was scratched up. I bought the frame on Ebay for $370 and refinished it myself. No warranty. The Planet X bikes from Lynskey are about $1100 for a frame and have a lifetime warranty. For me, the Chinese bikes are a drop in quality and warranty coverage that doesn't make sense at that price point. Go up or down in price and you end up with a better ride, IMO.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> You said
> 
> "The most expensive bike I've ever bought was a used frame that I paid $1000 for. "
> 
> ...


Yup. In 2003 I bought a repolished 1995 Litespeed Classic frame and fork for $1000 on Ebay. In 2008 I bought a hardly used 1996 Merlin Extralight with DA 7410 for about $1000, and parted it out - it now has Rival. The Litespeed Obed I bought new in '96 as an employee purchase when I worked at a dealer - it cost me $700. The most recent find was the Basso. The Classic turned out to be a little cramped for me, so now a friend owns it - it's her most prized possesion.

I ride a small size and know what to look for, so I've ended up with several Ti bikes at great prices. None of those frames sold new for less than a grand, and the polished Classic was probably close to $3000 new, with the Extralight not far behind. That's the difference between buying used and buying new.

The fact that these bikes were previously owned has nothing to do with how they ride or were constructed. I have kept up with what the various builders are doing since the 1990s, and can tell you that it is actually a pretty small world. Most of the smaller fabricators use Paragon Machine fittings, for instance.


Again, what is your point?


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*uh huh*



rx-79g said:


> Yup. In 2003 I bought a repolished 1995 Litespeed Classic frame and fork for $1000 on Ebay. In 2008 I bought a hardly used 1996 Merlin Extralight with DA 7410 for about $1000, and parted it out - it now has Rival. The Litespeed Obed I bought new in '96 as an employee purchase when I worked at a dealer - it cost me $700. The most recent find was the Basso. The Classic turned out to be a little cramped for me, so now a friend owns it - it's her most prized possesion.
> 
> I ride a small size and know what to look for, so I've ended up with several Ti bikes at great prices. None of those frames sold new for less than a grand, and the polished Classic was probably close to $3000 new, with the Extralight not far behind. That's the difference between buying used and buying new.
> 
> ...


So you bought, a series of used Ti frames, specced thenm out, and are now telling everyone about how the materail is dead or not and of course they are "high" end.

OK, AND how we determine a frame to be high end is I guess the fact that you bought used bikes, albeit "higher" end etc etc Never mind that they cost alot, they must be high end.......I guess that kind of makes sense but not in the manner of telling everyone how Ti rides. You can tell me how you think the bikes you bought ride, thats very possible, but, sorry, I am not drinking the Kool aid about how the diffrence between new and used is cost. I can be, but, not in the context of high end, IMO, no.

High end would mean , IMO, every year, new bike, new make, most current race level etc etc etc, not E bay.....You know, racer on div 1 team is assigned a frame, or great racer gets his face stuck on advertisements for bike x etc etc but hey, I admit that to be an opinon. AND OF COURSE the reason they cost alot is they "WERE" "USED TO BE" high end and are now 60+% off on E bay. Thats cool.

AND of course, you dont really care about winning races.....thats fine, know lots opf folks who buy high end stuff and never race. BUT, ya know, they dont claim to know how the material rides because lets face it, they dont ruide at a level where it would actually be credible.

2 riders, same bike, waaaay different fitness levels Rider A, 30K Miles a year on the bike, is winning a GT, is one heck of a rider, beyond gifted.Rider B, maybe a club level guy or gal, maybe, rides WAAAAAAAY less than 30K a year, nowhere close to the fitness level of Rider A and yet, rider B comes to a cycling board and tells the world about, used bikes and how these observations govern "high end" bikes and of course the universe of the material qualities in high end bikes. Yah, ya know, I think NOT

Me? I am not Rider A or B and gosh, I get what fits and just ride, and hey, I even have fun. Oddly, dont have much to say about the entire genre of a specific material and what happens in a bike of same said material........

Its called the real world and just learning that guys and gals who spread the gospel of that BS really drive younger riders away. Not a quality I look for, odd.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

ttug said:


> So you bought, a series of used Ti frames, specced thenm out, and are now telling everyone about how the materail is dead or not and of course they are "high" end.
> 
> OK, AND how we determine a frame to be high end is I guess the fact that you bought used bikes, albeit "higher" end etc etc Never mind that they cost alot, they must be high end.......I guess that kind of makes sense but not in the manner of telling everyone how Ti rides. You can tell me how you think the bikes you bought ride, thats very possible, but, sorry, I am not drinking the Kool aid about how the diffrence between new and used is cost. I can be, but, not in the context of high end, IMO, no.
> 
> ...


You seem to have a particular concern about bicycles that you want to get off your chest. That's fine, but has nothing to do with me. My comments aren't about racing, which bike is fastest or what is an acceptable level of bike for any given rider. If you were more familiar with my posts you'd notice that I am generally critical of name brands and often recommend off brand frames and parts for their performance for the dollar.

I think you have maybe been confused by me using the term "high end" to describe the various Ti makers in the US. So let's instead use the word "established", because I'm not making a point about premium branding or price, just excellence in build quality.

I don't care who rides what. I especially don't care how fast anyone thinks they are. But as a craftsmen, I enjoy nicely built functional items that last a long time and work well - whether I want to pay for them or not.

You're a fascinating guy. You're essentially calling me a snob for appreciating a particular kind of bicycle, while saying that only people who buy new $5000 bikes could possibly have an opinion about how they are made or marketed. This is like saying an art professor knows less about paintings than a rich guy who owns one Picasso.



I think you want to work out some issues you have about equipment snobbery in cycling and its effects on new riders. I'd suggest starting a thread on that, since there isn't any of that going on here. If anything, I would agree with you. But frankly, your posts don't make any sense. I don't know if that's because you're so angry you don't want to actually read what's on the page, or if you are just kind of slow (off the bike, of course).

You have stated that you don't care about the topic. Why post on it?


----------



## jpap (Jun 21, 2006)

ttug said:


> So you bought, a series of used Ti frames, specced thenm out, and are now telling everyone about how the materail is dead or not and of course they are "high" end.
> 
> OK, AND how we determine a frame to be high end is I guess the fact that you bought used bikes, albeit "higher" end etc etc Never mind that they cost alot, they must be high end.......I guess that kind of makes sense but not in the manner of telling everyone how Ti rides. You can tell me how you think the bikes you bought ride, thats very possible, but, sorry, I am not drinking the Kool aid about how the diffrence between new and used is cost. I can be, but, not in the context of high end, IMO, no.
> 
> ...



TTUG, you are comming across as a person with a massive chip on his shoulder jealous at anyone owining an expensive frame unless ofcourse they are a TDF level rider and secondly you have been involved in a debate with RX-79g which IMO you have come off second best and now your posts are resembling that of a petulant child.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*oh*



jpap said:


> TTUG, you are comming across as a person with a massive chip on his shoulder jealous at anyone owining an expensive frame unless ofcourse they are a TDF level rider and secondly you have been involved in a debate with RX-79g which IMO you have come off second best and now your posts are resembling that of a petulant child.


I dont care what people ride. Really. Honestly.

I hate people who think they know everything about a material, what it can do, what it rides like etc etc when EXACTLY as you said, a TDF rider, would know about what THEY LIKE to ride, not about a material, WTF is this one to do that? Answer, nobody, a nobody who perpetuates the total BS notion that only high end bikes create high end performance and that aint so.

Its kind of tragic that there are folks like this out there on the trail, the road, and they open up the old cake hole and just need to piss on you, your bike, what a real bike is etc etc

And ya know, it really just takes the novice rider and replulses them. I know it did me, until I started dropping a few of the material crowd on a regular basis, on any day, and ya know, being a better rider can be and should be fun, NOT, ladeled with marketing myths that waaaay reputable builders tell you is smoke.

Lastly, I could care less what you think


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> Hi Froze,
> 
> I'm enjoying our discussion as well - a little debate gets to the heart of things.
> 
> ...



Statement in bold is incorrect; and I should point that out.

Moto Ti frames are made in Taiwan; use custom shaped and double butted tubes
and objective comparison of Moto, Litespeed, and Lynskey frames shows little or no difference.

You are correct; XACD and other makers of Ti frames in China have good reputations; but they are not exactly the same as frames like on Motobecane, Litespeed, and so on.

On the 'sportness' of Moto ti frames; I do not know which reveiws you are reading; but that was not mentioned in any magazine reveiw I have seen. In fact, even I have been surprised at how positive the reveiws on Moto ti bikes have been.


----------



## mikeyp.1 (May 24, 2006)

Seems like everybody who bought a Moto Ti loves them.I love my Heat but I miss having a "dream" bike because I don't think I would like anything more than my Motobecane.


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Statement in bold is incorrect; and I should point that out.
> 
> Moto Ti frames are made in Taiwan; use custom shaped and double butted tubes
> and objective comparison of Moto, Litespeed, and Lynskey frames shows little or no difference.
> ...


Gee, Rx-79g doesn't know everything-imagine that? The point of the last two pages seems to be that less time googling about materials, welding, or who makes what bikes (and guessing wrong) would translate into more time riding. After all, knowing that Ti has to be welded in an inert gas environment won't raise your sustained wattage output, lower your resting heart rate, or get you chicks for that matter. But it will get you called out for being a poser. Cycling tech is cool, but actually riding makes you better at cycling. It has little to do with the kind of bike you own (unless your bike fit is painful and hampering your enjoyment)...


----------



## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

i'm very sure Ti frames aren't dying. they just need to lower the manf costs of it and there needs to be more competition. Right now we have Lynskey, Moots, and Litespeed (and maybe some others) who i think (?) make their frames in the USA. This makes them expensive because you're paying for the labor. Coming from Asia with a brand name we have habanero, motobecane, ... (?). And as far as i know it we only have 1 generic seller of Ti frames selling direct from China: XACD. If China starts to manf more Ti stuff, i'm 100% sure that all prices of Ti frames in america will drop. Look at carbon in the last 5-10 years.

ANYWAY... since this is a Ti thread. XACD quoted me on a Ti frame with their geometry for $690 shipped. Custom geometry for $730. I'm thinking of going custom for $40 more!
Do i have any other options to be looking at that can compare to this?? am i missing anything?


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

bikesdirect said:


> Statement in bold is incorrect; and I should point that out.
> 
> Moto Ti frames are made in Taiwan; use custom shaped and double butted tubes
> and objective comparison of Moto, Litespeed, and Lynskey frames shows little or no difference.
> ...


Then I recalled incorrectly thank you for the correction.

As to the sportiness comment, I was basing that on reviews like this one by Bicycling Magazine that use the words "comfortable" and "plush" throughout the review:
http://www.bicycling.com/gear/detail/0,7989,s1-16-156-2733-0,00.html
If you haven't seen this review, I think the comments at the bottom also reflect the POV that your frame is a fine endurance frame - which is a good market for a discount road bike.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*doth mine eyes deceive me?*



rx-79g said:


> Then I recalled incorrectly thank you for the correction.
> 
> As to the sportiness comment, I was basing that on reviews like this one by Bicycling Magazine that use the words "comfortable" and "plush" throughout the review:
> http://www.bicycling.com/gear/detail/0,7989,s1-16-156-2733-0,00.html
> If you haven't seen this review, I think the comments at the bottom also reflect the POV that your frame is a fine endurance frame - which is a good market for a discount road bike.



It will be a cold day in hell before I use Bicycling Magazine as anything other than litter liner


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> Then I recalled incorrectly thank you for the correction.
> 
> As to the sportiness comment, I was basing that on reviews like this one by Bicycling Magazine that use the words "comfortable" and "plush" throughout the review:
> http://www.bicycling.com/gear/detail/0,7989,s1-16-156-2733-0,00.html
> If you haven't seen this review, I think the comments at the bottom also reflect the POV that your frame is a fine endurance frame - which is a good market for a discount road bike.



Thank you
yes I have seen that review
but to me the quote "And suitably, Le Champion climbs well, descends with confidence and never feels dead or sluggish under power despite being noticeably comfortable over the harshest broken asphalt or gravel roads." means the bike is comfortable and quick; a good combo in my book.

Our customers seems happy with the Ti Motobecanes for long rides, races, and training alike; I am very happy with our Ti bikes.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

bikesdirect said:


> Thank you
> yes I have seen that review
> but to me the quote "And suitably, Le Champion climbs well, descends with confidence and never feels dead or sluggish under power despite being noticeably comfortable over the harshest broken asphalt or gravel roads." means the bike is comfortable and quick; a good combo in my book.
> 
> Our customers seems happy with the Ti Motobecanes for long rides, races, and training alike; I am very happy with our Ti bikes.


Hey, which bikes aren't they happy with?


----------



## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> Hey, which bikes aren't they happy with?


i wish there was a LIKE! button.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> Hey, which bikes aren't they happy with?


Now come on; any marketing/sales rep. (in this case he's probably higher up then a marketing rep) worth his/her salt who believes in the product will of course say positive things about their product. Do you expect the company rep to tell you not to buy the product because it will break in less then two days and we won't warranty the product? Well if he did he won't have a job very long. Fortunately in todays world we have the internet and we can search for the resemblance of truth among those who have used it before.

I have not heard anything bad about the TI Motobecane bikes yet, and any one who has ever bought a bike from Bikes Direct that had a problem they, Bikes Direct, handled all problems fairly...at least from what I've read so far.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> Now come on; any marketing/sales rep. (in this case he's probably higher up then a marketing rep) worth his/her salt who believes in the product will of course say positive things about their product. Do you expect the company rep to tell you not to buy the product because it will break in less then two days and we won't warranty the product? Well if he did he won't have a job very long. Fortunately in todays world we have the internet and we can search for the resemblance of truth among those who have used it before.
> 
> I have not heard anything bad about the TI Motobecane bikes yet, and any one who has ever bought a bike from Bikes Direct that had a problem they, Bikes Direct, handled all problems fairly...at least from what I've read so far.


Precisely. There is no point in arguing with the owner of a bike company. His products are whatever he says they are.

I haven't heard that the BD Ti bikes are bad either. I have heard that they are built more for comfort than speed, so I said so and posted a source. 

What would you do?


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*no, not at all*



rx-79g said:


> Precisely. There is no point in arguing with the owner of a bike company. His products are whatever he says they are.
> 
> I haven't heard that the BD Ti bikes are bad either. I have heard that they are built more for comfort than speed, so I said so and posted a source.
> 
> What would you do?


 The consumer governs what a bike is.

You can own the co, but what you say, means nothing unless you as the consumer, buy it.

Its called buy in, and oh yeah, making a buck which is why, SERVICE ciomes in handy. Sorry, I do not care at all what the persons says. Its what I feel on the road


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> Precisely. There is no point in arguing with the owner of a bike company. His products are whatever he says they are.
> 
> I haven't heard that the BD Ti bikes are bad either. I have heard that they are built more for comfort than speed, so I said so and posted a source.
> 
> What would you do?


Like I said before speed is not my concern, I'm 56 years old I deserve a little comfort. Besides I have a steel and AL racing bikes so if I ever get the yearning to race again I will probably bring the AL bike out of the mothballs since it's the lightest and stiffest of all the bikes I own; it's the stiffness reason why I don't ride it anymore. I can endure the harshness of the AL ride if racing on it, but I don't want to train on it.


----------



## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> Then I recalled incorrectly thank you for the correction.
> As to the sportiness comment, I was basing that on reviews like this one by Bicycling Magazine that use the words "comfortable" and "plush" throughout the review:
> https://www.bicycling.com/gear/detail/0,7989,s1-16-156-2733-0,00.html
> If you haven't seen this review, I think the comments at the bottom also reflect the POV that your frame is a fine endurance frame - which is a good market for a discount road bike.


Hard to beat this value for Ti ... :thumbsup:

*Shimano Ultegra 6700, 20 Speed Titanium 2011 Motobecane Le Champion SL Ti $1999*
3/2.5 Butted Titanium, Ultegra 6700, Mavic Ksyrium Equipe Wheels, Ritchey WCS Bar, Stem and Post


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Maybe the Bikes Direct guy is watching, I wonder if the Motobecane TI bike's decals and the bike are clear coated so the decals won't come off, or if their just exposed and stuck to the frame with no protective covering?

How do other TI builders do the decals?

I know that sounds like a stupid question. Usually a painted bike has the decals applied then a clear coat (or 2 in the case of my Mercian) is appled over the decals and paint to protect both.


----------



## orlin03 (Dec 11, 2007)

froze said:


> Maybe the Bikes Direct guy is watching, I wonder if the Motobecane TI bike's decals and the bike are clear coated so the decals won't come off, or if their just exposed and stuck to the frame with no protective covering?
> 
> How do other TI builders do the decals?
> 
> I know that sounds like a stupid question. Usually a painted bike has the decals applied then a clear coat (or 2 in the case of my Mercian) is appled over the decals and paint to protect both.


Most TI bikes I've seen are made with decals that are not clear coated over. Some people don't like this because the decals come off easily during normal wear, but it makes it easy to freshen the bike with a scotch pad, and the stickers are easily replaced for a brand-new look (great idea if your frame is going to last for decades). I love it on my Litespeed because I can go with a whole new color scheme by having a sign shop make new decals, and change the whole look of the bike on a whim.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

orlin03 said:


> Most TI bikes I've seen are made with decals that are not clear coated over. Some people don't like this because the decals come off easily during normal wear, but it makes it easy to freshen the bike with a scotch pad, and the stickers are easily replaced for a brand-new look (great idea if your frame is going to last for decades). I love it on my Litespeed because I can go with a whole new color scheme by having a sign shop make new decals, and change the whole look of the bike on a whim.


Thanks, that's what I thought but wasn't sure. I've heard that unpainted TI bikes were nude so I assumed that meant no clear coat. I'm ok with that; I wonder if Motobecane sells a decal set or if it's one of those things where, like you said, go to a sign place and have a set made? I guess that would be cool, because then I could try to have some retro looking Motobecane decals from the 60's made when the time came to replace them. That would be weird, 60's decals on a modern TI bike!


----------



## Mattman (Jan 28, 2005)

*great value, but check it over*



flatsix911 said:


> Hard to beat this value for Ti ... :thumbsup:
> 
> *Shimano Ultegra 6700, 20 Speed Titanium 2011 Motobecane Le Champion SL Ti $1999*
> 3/2.5 Butted Titanium, Ultegra 6700, Mavic Ksyrium Equipe Wheels, Ritchey WCS Bar, Stem and Post


These are a great value and I've pointed some friends to this company. I've also learned that it's a good idea to really check them over closely upon receipt. Not so much for shipping damage though that can happen, but for proper assembly. From what I've seen at least some are built (assembled) more like a Walmart bike, not like the pro build you'd expect from a good bike shop. you may find things like loose fasteners, cable housings too long or too short, improperly adjusted derailleuers, poorly wrapped bars, etc.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mattman said:


> These are a great value and I've pointed some friends to this company. I've also learned that it's a good idea to really check them over closely upon receipt. Not so much for shipping damage though that can happen, but for proper assembly. From what I've seen at least some are built (assembled) more like a Walmart bike, not like the pro build you'd expect from a good bike shop. you may find things like loose fasteners, cable housings too long or too short, improperly adjusted derailleuers, poorly wrapped bars, etc.


That's not a big deal though, either do it yourself, or if you feel your not competent enough just take it to an LBS, usually for around $75 they will do it for you.

But I've heard from others on other forums that there was no problem with the way they were assembled, but as with any mail order bike that sort of thing needs to be checked.


----------



## desert_koi (Jul 15, 2007)

This thread is a fun read!

I have five steel road bikes ranging from $800 to $3000 and all are very comfortable. Having ridden carbon and aluminum there is no comparison. The combination of road feel plus comfort is hard to beat. Carbon to me feels "dead" and I hate the perceived lack of road feel. Aluminum was just awful for both feel and comfort.

However my custom titanium Zinn beats out all of them. The road feel is as good as steel while the comfort is exponentially better. When getting fitted for the bike I spoke with Zinn at length regarding my options and he was certain that Titanium would feel better. Him and I are remarkably similar in size and I road several of his bikes including steel, magnesium, and titanium. The superiority of the titanium was extremely apparent within just a few feet of pedaling down his gravel driveway.

Now, I'm a big guy at 6'5" and 218 lbs so it's possible the way carbon feels to someone of more average size might be significantly different. Plus of course my Zinn was custom made so much of the comfort is related to fit as much as anything else. Hence take this with a grain of salt.

I should probably also mention that in regards to decals some boutique custom builders will (if asked) bead blast their logo onto the frame for you or even bead blast a custom design. No cheap looking decals to deal with. I wish I had realized this prior to purchasing my bike.


----------



## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

Screw decals!

Tom painted mine on and I love it.
You guys want to be cheap and cry about the cost.
I wanted a custom Ti frame, built just for me, fitted my someone who KNOWS what he is doing.
Painted just the way I wanted.
Spectrum got it done and it does everything I could ever ask it to do!

8,000 well spent!


----------



## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

jr59 said:


> Spectrum got it done and it does everything I could ever ask it to do!


Looks like they did even more than you could aver ask of them: They even sent over that hot chick in underwear. Do those come in blonde, too? 

P.S.: Yeah, I know it's Photoshop...


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

desert_koi said:


> This thread is a fun read!
> 
> I have five steel road bikes ranging from $800 to $3000 and all are very comfortable. Having ridden carbon and aluminum there is no comparison. The combination of road feel plus comfort is hard to beat. Carbon to me feels "dead" and I hate the perceived lack of road feel. Aluminum was just awful for both feel and comfort.
> 
> ...


The last Zinn I saw was built by Eriksen. Did he do yours?


----------



## shinedown (Dec 12, 2010)

El Caballito said:


> TI not dead. Shopping around for a ti frame now.


Me too!


----------



## desert_koi (Jul 15, 2007)

jr59 said:


> Screw decals!
> 
> Tom painted mine on and I love it.
> You guys want to be cheap and cry about the cost.
> ...


Nice fork. I'm seeing more and more boutique custom Ti makers use ENVE 2.0 (formerly EDGE) forks.


----------



## Reparto (Apr 25, 2007)

Ti is where it's at. Moots, Indy Fab. Ti parts are also still popular. I just read that the Salsa Ti 29'r frames are made by Lynskey. Ti is alive and well.


----------



## mcteague (Feb 7, 2005)

jr59 said:


> Screw decals!
> 
> Tom painted mine on and I love it.
> You guys want to be cheap and cry about the cost.
> ...


$8000 and Tom didn't paint the fork? IMO a white fork would really complete the look.

Tim


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Reparto said:


> Ti is where it's at. Moots, Indy Fab. Ti parts are also still popular. I just read that the Salsa Ti 29'r frames are made by Lynskey. Ti is alive and well.


As were the limited edition IBIS Ti Mojos they offered back in 2009. I wanted one so bad but they only made 150 and ran out of my size when I was ready to pull the trigger. .


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Reparto said:


> I just read that the Salsa Ti 29'r frames are made by Lynskey.


Many of the ti frames out there seem to be made by Lynskey these days.
They are fast becoming as common as Giants.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

FTR said:


> Many of the ti frames out there seem to be made by Lynskey these days.
> They are fast becoming as common as Giants.


Nah...it will be a while before they become as ubiquitous as the Serottas and Moots around here. I can't blow a snot rocket without hitting one. Just sayin'


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Nah...it will be a while before they become as ubiquitous as the Serottas and Moots around here. I can't blow a snot rocket without hitting one. Just sayin'


You should move then.
2 Moots in the city I live in (that I know of anyway and one is mine). Less than a handful of Serotta's.
Lynskey roadie's are still reasonably rare judging by the posts I have seen on RBR but every 2nd ti 29er I see on MTBR is a Lynskey or a "built by Lynskey".


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

What on the forum? I've lived in 3 cities in 5 years. I had the only lynskey in our racing club. 2 moots and several litespeeds. Where I live now serotta galore, again a few moots and only one lynskey in my current group. Just sayin'


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

What you see for bikes in different areas has more to do with what the good shops carry than anything else.

Lynskey doesn't play well with dealers, so you aren't going to see little pockets of Lynskeys like you will LBS brands.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Kontact said:


> What you see for bikes in different areas has more to do with what the good shops carry than anything else.
> 
> Lynskey doesn't play well with dealers, so you aren't going to see little pockets of Lynskeys like you will LBS brands.


Not the first time I heard that...


----------



## onefascruzan (Dec 28, 2006)

*Ti being dead...*

I have had a Douglas 6/4 compact pro for about 5-6 years now and I have always found myself going back to this frame as a no-nonsense, very light, plenty stiff, durable, comfortable enough, accurate, and aesthetically pleasing race machine. Sure, carbon deadens vibes a bit more (Ti has a "zing" to it) and AL can be made stiffer (ouch!). Personally, I really like steel but where I live, a good steel frame will rust from beneath you in a few years so I'm back on Ti and lovin' it!:thumbsup:


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

onefascruzan said:


> a good steel frame will rust from beneath you in a few years so I'm back on Ti and lovin' it!:thumbsup:


Next load of BS please!! Dude, get real man, steel doesn't rust in a few years. Tell that to the now deceased Sheldon Brown who rode a 1918 Ranger bicycle most of the time to work and he lived in Boston.! Tell it to me, I have several road bikes built in the 80's and not a spot of rust anywhere on or inside of them and I live in the rust belt of Indiana! I have a cheap Walmart kids bike that sat outside in rain, show and sun for 15 years and by golly it isn't a pile of rust chips, in fact all it has is minor light surface rust where the paint was missing, still very much rideable without a question about whether or not the thing will rust apart...there may be some questions about whether the components will hold up much longer, I had to cannibalize another Walmart bike to keep that one going, but it won't be rust that stops it.

Not sure if you're just ignorant, or like to see fireworks on forums like this.


----------



## onefascruzan (Dec 28, 2006)

Eeeasy, buddy! I've owned steel and I'm just saying IF I didn't live here, I would probably be on it again. "Here" is the Virgin Islands where everything corrodes due to the salty sea air and high temps and humidity year-round. Couple that with my high sweat rate and the fact that I rode that bike almost every day (as I'm a racer not just ignorant), often boxing it up right after a race with no rinse so as to make a flight plus I'm a very salty sweater and you have an inevitable recipe for rust even with Weigle's stuff. So, IMHO, I can't get more than 5 or 6 years (excuse me for saying "a few") of that kind of abuse before I'm doing rust repairs but that's just me. Believe me, I love steel, nothing rides better but im very hard on my equipment and so is my natural environment so I'm not gonna spend good money on a Vanilla or IF and watch it corrode!


----------



## asherstash1 (May 16, 2010)

na about silly steel/ti /cf arguements lol, just saying if i won the lottery tomorrow, the first sober thing id do is ride up the road to sabbath bikes and order one of these...


----------



## Germany_chris (Sep 9, 2009)

This is a contentious thread..but I have a ubiquitous Serotta Legend, and I like it a bunch..:0)


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

onefascruzan said:


> Eeeasy, buddy! I've owned steel and I'm just saying IF I didn't live here, I would probably be on it again. "Here" is the Virgin Islands where everything corrodes due to the salty sea air and high temps and humidity year-round. Couple that with my high sweat rate and the fact that I rode that bike almost every day (as I'm a racer not just ignorant), often boxing it up right after a race with no rinse so as to make a flight plus I'm a very salty sweater and you have an inevitable recipe for rust even with Weigle's stuff. So, IMHO, I can't get more than 5 or 6 years (excuse me for saying "a few") of that kind of abuse before I'm doing rust repairs but that's just me. Believe me, I love steel, nothing rides better but im very hard on my equipment and so is my natural environment so I'm not gonna spend good money on a Vanilla or IF and watch it corrode!


Ok, I'm easy now! Not sure about the Virgin Island rust rates, but I use to live along the coast of California and bought a steel beater to ride to college (so not to get the good bike stolen), and I would take that beater down to the ocean and ride it on the wet sand and getting salty sea water waves washing onto the bike, I would do just a basic rinse afterwards of course; it was also parked outside of the apartment in all the weather...only bad weather in CA is rain! but it was left exposed to rain. I bought the bike in 1978, I used it for that purpose for about 15 years, then moved to the desert where it sat in my garage for till 2003 when we moved to Indiana. I pulled the bottom bracket on it before moving and there was some internal rust inside, so since the bike needed some components and with the rust I left it behind. The AL components got corroded due to the salt, and I'm sure the rust flakes inside the BB was also due to that as well, but it was still solid enough to ride if the components still functioned. I friend of mine took the bike and restored it with some used components he had and did something to the frame to remove some or all of the rust (I don't know how much he was able to remove), now his son rides it! The bike was a 76 Schwinn Traveler so nothing special, I bought it used.

I have 9 steel bikes, none have any rust, 7 of those bikes were made in the 80's, only 1 of the bikes was treated with Wiggles from the Merician company when I ordered it in 07. I would not had it treated but they did it for free so I didn't care.


----------



## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

I've raced on and off since 1989 and owned road and mountain bikes in all four of the major frame materials. Titanium is my favorite for reasons others have noted. But a close second is actually arguably a fifth material: Scandium. I regret selling my last race bike, a 2002 Merckx Team SC. That was a great bike, though the Lynskey R330 that replaced it is right up there. In fact, they feel similar -- stiff as hell but smooth.


----------



## tacoracer (Sep 6, 2009)

Kontact said:


> Lynskey doesn't play well with dealers, so you aren't going to see little pockets of Lynskeys like you will LBS brands.


Could you expound on this? Specifically the part about Lynskey not playing well with dealers?


----------



## Lou3000 (Aug 25, 2010)

My only problem with the statement that carbon feels dead is the generic use of the term carbon. Saying I ride a carbon bike is like saying you ride a metal bike. I've ridden a lot of carbon and they span the spectrum of good to awful.

That said, custom Ti will always be my dream bike.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

tacoracer said:


> Could you expound on this? Specifically the part about Lynskey not playing well with dealers?


From what I've heard not all dealers like the fact that they also sell direct (for pretty much the same price as the LBS, but no sales tax).


----------



## nor_cal_rider (Dec 18, 2006)

I have been a strong advocate for TREK's carbon bikes for almost 20 yrs, but recently discovered Moots and their beautiful Ti bikes. I sacrifice about 10-16 oz in weight by choosing a Ti frame over CF, and can get a similar ride quality with an almost indestructible frame material. For the 1 lb or less difference between my 6 Series Madone and my Moots RSL, I'll skip my morning pastry for a couple days to shave the weight from me and grab the less fragile frame for big events where my bike might get knocked over or run into.

FWIW - I like the ride and build of my VaMoots RSL so much, I picked up a PsychloX for a "bad weather" bike...

Just my thoughts and opinion.


----------



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I'll add my weekend testimonial to this...

I did a recon ride for an upcoming race last weekend. A couple guys in matching jerseys with matching top-end CF race bikes joined us. I didn't know who they were and hung with them through the hilltop finish... much to their frantic surprise. I was riding my titanium race bike. 

It turned out they were professional factory riders for a major bike company. The frame materials meant nothing in the performance category. On the descent I put several minutes on my other team members and had to call the support car to see if I had made a wrong turn. Feeling really good about a titanium frame.


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Dajianshan said:


> I'll add my weekend testimonial to this...
> 
> I did a recon ride for an upcoming race last weekend. A couple guys in matching jerseys with matching top-end CF race bikes joined us. I didn't know who they were and hung with them through the hilltop finish... much to their frantic surprise. I was riding my titanium race bike.
> 
> It turned out they were professional factory riders for a major bike company. The frame materials meant nothing in the performance category. On the descent I put several minutes on my other team members and had to call the support car to see if I had made a wrong turn. Feeling really good about a titanium frame.


Did you get laid that night too?


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> From what I've heard not all dealers like the fact that they also sell direct (for pretty much the same price as the LBS, but no sales tax).


What? Direct sales? there goes the custom fitting. After all you should never buy a bike without test riding one first. That is the argument a lot of you posters make against buying a bike from Bikes Direct to those considering getting one from there.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> Did you get laid that night too?


No, but he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> What? Direct sales? there goes the custom fitting. After all you should never buy a bike without test riding one first. That is the argument a lot of you posters make against buying a bike from Bikes Direct to those considering getting one from there.


Settle down sparky...they have dealers too.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Settle down sparky...they have dealers too.


They have dealers? In every town? What if you live Montana, N Dakota, etc, so I would have to travel to some place far to get a fitting, I could do that with Richard Sachs. But the point is most people don't, they order over the internet or phone.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> They have dealers? In every town? What if you live Montana, N Dakota, etc, so I would have to travel to some place far to get a fitting, I could do that with Richard Sachs. But the point is most people don't, they order over the internet or phone.


Huh? You make no sense. I've had a fitting done before every frame I've ordered over the last 7 years. I bought my first Lynksey from a dealer who did Serotta fits and prior to buying my Helix I did a fitting with a independent professional fitter (who happens to do fitting at about 6 different shops). Bike brand and bike fits are independent of one another.


----------



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Are you kidding. I haven't gotten laid in weeks. How'd you think I found the energy for that kind of effort?


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Huh? You make no sense. I've had a fitting done before every frame I've ordered over the last 7 years. I bought my first Lynksey from a dealer who did Serotta fits and prior to buying my Helix I did a fitting with a independent professional fitter (who happens to do fitting at about 6 different shops). Bike brand and bike fits are independent of one another.


What I was saying is that there isn't a Lynskey dealer in every city in the US, and if you live in Montana you may have to drive or fly 500 miles to the nearest place, are you willing to that? Do you realize that most custom built bikes are sold without the person ever being there? How many people that ordered bikes from Rivendell actually went there for a fitting? No where near the percentage that bought the bike unseen and never ridden, the same with Richard Sachs, and the list of custom builders is huge that rarely have a customer go in for a fitting, and all of those people that got their bikes by mail never complain about a poor fit. So you can roll your eyes all you want but fact are facts. I would roll my eyes back at you but for some reason the icons don't work on my end.

By the way Serotta fitting is a joke, they charge $150 for something that no other custom frame builder needs to do, and if other custom shops can build perfectly fitting bikes without using a fancy looking machine and charge you $150 then so could Serotta. It's marketing, making you think your getting something special that no one else does therefore no other custom builder is even close to the league of Serotta. Right!


----------



## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Huh? You make no sense. I've had a fitting done before every frame I've ordered over the last 7 years. I bought my first Lynksey from a dealer who did Serotta fits and prior to buying my Helix I did a fitting with a independent professional fitter (who happens to do fitting at about 6 different shops). Bike brand and bike fits are independent of one another.


Why did you feel the need to do a fitting every time you bought a bike? Wouldn't one fitting give you the right dimensions for your body, which could then be applied across any number of bikes? You say that bike brands and bike fits are independent of one another, but I don't think that is true. Your body's geometry is static and all you need are the geometry numbers from a bike maker to determine what will fit your body. 

I'm still basically milking a Fit Kit session from 1999. I've tweaked a few dimensions myself based on changing preferences and an aging body, but it's still basically accurate because things like my femur length and reach haven't changed. Thus I was able to buy a Lynskey last year without even a discussion.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Wines of WA said:


> Why did you feel the need to do a fitting every time you bought a bike? Wouldn't one fitting give you the right dimensions for your body, which could then be applied across any number of bikes? You say that bike brands and bike fits are independent of one another, but I don't think that is true. Your body's geometry is static and all you need are the geometry numbers from a bike maker to determine what will fit your body.
> 
> I'm still basically milking a Fit Kit session from 1999. I've tweaked a few dimensions myself based on changing preferences and an aging body, but it's still basically accurate because things like my femur length and reach haven't changed. Thus I was able to buy a Lynskey last year without even a discussion.


Well maybe he was only 12 years old when he bought his first bike 7 years ago and everytime he bought another bike he had to get refitted due to growth?


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> What I was saying is that there isn't a Lynskey dealer in every city in the US, and if you live in Montana you may have to drive or fly 500 miles to the nearest place, are you willing to that? Do you realize that most custom built bikes are sold without the person ever being there? How many people that ordered bikes from Rivendell actually went there for a fitting? No where near the percentage that bought the bike unseen and never ridden, the same with Richard Sachs, and the list of custom builders is huge that rarely have a customer go in for a fitting, and all of those people that got their bikes by mail never complain about a poor fit. So you can roll your eyes all you want but fact are facts. I would roll my eyes back at you but for some reason the icons don't work on my end.
> 
> By the way Serotta fitting is a joke, they charge $150 for something that no other custom frame builder needs to do, and if other custom shops can build perfectly fitting bikes without using a fancy looking machine and charge you $150 then so could Serotta. It's marketing, making you think your getting something special that no one else does therefore no other custom builder is even close to the league of Serotta. Right!


If..if…if…if grandma had balls she’d be grandpa. Who said any builder/brand is obligated to have a dealer in every state city? Nonsense. Secondly, do I realize custom bikes are sold without the end user being there? Wow…why yes I do realize that, but here is where your logic is flawed, I’d wager the average customer of a “Richard Sachs” (do you have a man crush on him or something?) , Serotta or most another builder will know what they want before ordering. If they don’t, they are usually steered to a fitter or a standardized house geometry based on body proportions. Them’s the facts chief. As for the “Serotta Fit”, I could give a rats’ anus what you think about them…personally I’m indifferent.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Wines of WA said:


> Why did you feel the need to do a fitting every time you bought a bike? Wouldn't one fitting give you the right dimensions for your body, which could then be applied across any number of bikes? You say that bike brands and bike fits are independent of one another, but I don't think that is true. Your body's geometry is static and all you need are the geometry numbers from a bike maker to determine what will fit your body.
> 
> I'm still basically milking a Fit Kit session from 1999. I've tweaked a few dimensions myself based on changing preferences and an aging body, but it's still basically accurate because things like my femur length and reach haven't changed. Thus I was able to buy a Lynskey last year without even a discussion.


Let me answer your questions one at a time: 

1.Why did you feel the need to do a fitting every time you bought a bike? Easy…they were free, well all except my latest one. For the last one I injured my wrist during a deployment overseas and wanted my position re-evaluated. 

2. Bike brands and bike fits are independent of one another. You misinterpreted the response, “brand” and “fit” are not related to each other in so fact that a “Serotta” or “Fit Kit” fitting is only good for a certain brand bike. I agree with you once you have a fit that works you should only need an update if something has significantly altered your physiology (injury, etc…)

Clear things up?


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> Well maybe he was only 12 years old when he bought his first bike 7 years ago and everytime he bought another bike he had to get refitted due to growth?


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> If..if…if…if grandma had balls she’d be grandpa. Who said any builder/brand is obligated to have a dealer in every state city? Nonsense. Secondly, do I realize custom bikes are sold without the end user being there? Wow…why yes I do realize that, but here is where your logic is flawed, I’d wager the average customer of a “Richard Sachs” (do you have a man crush on him or something?) , Serotta or most another builder will know what they want before ordering. If they don’t, they are usually steered to a fitter or a standardized house geometry based on body proportions. Them’s the facts chief. As for the “Serotta Fit”, I could give a rats’ anus what you think about them…personally I’m indifferent.


Congrats you missed my point.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


>


Hey, where did you find that picture of my wife?


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> Congrats you missed my point.


You had a point? Just sounded like someone pooped in your Cheerios and you had your feelings hurt.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> You had a point? Just sounded like someone pooped in your Cheerios and you had your feelings hurt.


Yes, and my point is this, a demitasse cup would fit your head like a sombrero. That's all I was trying to say.


----------



## AndyMc2006 (Oct 27, 2006)

Im feeling even more confident about my recent purchase of a Moots Vamoots CR to replace my 12 y.o steel Landshark...now I just have to wait...4 more weeks...


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> Yes, and my point is this, a demitasse cup would fit your head like a sombrero. That's all I was trying to say.


Wow...guess you showed me.


----------



## wai11111 (Aug 21, 2011)

I've been a road rider for over 20 years and had many bikes. My first road bike was an Aluminum Cannondal Caad 3, nice, super lite but if not careful, dents like soda can. So I switched to a Litespeed classic. Super ride, stiff and the Ti just beautiful (I had the polished frame). Then the carbon scene hits big in the road bike community. Sold the classic and purchased a 2007 Felt F1 with full Dura Ace 7800 groups. I must say, the carbons can be molded into any shape and giving the bike a Super Aero advantage. I think Carbon bikes is like an Apple product! By the end of the year, the next big things come out and costing everyone big $$$ to catch up. Now I'm getting older and just wanted the classic look again, so I purchased a Lynskey Custom Level 3 with all Dura Ace groups and Mavic K10 wheelset. This is gonna last forever and possibly be the last bike I'll purchase. Titanium is just "TIMELESS"! Strong, light and powerful. With Carbon? 2008 models already are out dated in terms of material, shape, etc. Get them cheap on E-bay and save $$$.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> Hey, where did you find that picture of my wife?





wai11111 said:


> I've been a road rider for over 20 years and had many bikes. My first road bike was an Aluminum Cannondal Caad 3, nice, super lite but if not careful, dents like soda can. So I switched to a Litespeed classic. Super ride, stiff and the Ti just beautiful (I had the polished frame). Then the carbon scene hits big in the road bike community. Sold the classic and purchased a 2007 Felt F1 with full Dura Ace 7800 groups. I must say, the carbons can be molded into any shape and giving the bike a Super Aero advantage. I think Carbon bikes is like an Apple product! By the end of the year, the next big things come out and costing everyone big $$$ to catch up. Now I'm getting older and just wanted the classic look again, so I purchased a Lynskey Custom Level 3 with all Dura Ace groups and Mavic K10 wheelset. This is gonna last forever and possibly be the last bike I'll purchase. Titanium is just "TIMELESS"! Strong, light and powerful. With Carbon? 2008 models already are out dated in terms of material, shape, etc. Get them cheap on E-bay and save $$$.


Sounds like a beautiful bike...pics please!


----------



## wai11111 (Aug 21, 2011)

*Lynskey L3*

Some how, it is not letting me upload the pics but here it is when I posted a question on roadbike review concerning if I should removed the custom paint job by Lynskey. The answer is no, I'm keeping it the way it is. Heres link:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bi...strip-paint-need-help-259280-post3519166.html


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

I remember that thread. Congrats again and I agree keep the paint, it's killer!


----------



## The_real_maverick (Sep 25, 2011)

I have had 2 vintage carbon bikes and there is a big difference from my old trek 5200 OCLV compared to the new carbon as far as comfort and weight. So, if you talking new carbon vs titanium then I have no idea. But titanium is much better than the older carbon imo.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

froze said:


> What I was saying is that there isn't a Lynskey dealer in every city in the US, and if you live in Montana you may have to drive or fly 500 miles to the nearest place, are you willing to that?


Why would you have to get fitted at a Lynskey dealer? A 32" inseam will remain 32" on a Lynskey, Serotta or any other bike.

And lots of framebuilders besides Serotta use fitting jigs.


----------



## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Why would you have to get fitted at a Lynskey dealer? A 32" inseam will remain 32" on a Lynskey, Serotta or any other bike.
> 
> And lots of framebuilders besides Serotta use fitting jigs.


Last time I checked, my 30" inseam rode an 17" and an 18"


----------



## RoadBoy1 (Oct 1, 2011)

I rode a Colnago CT-1 with a Campy ErgoPower 8-Speed build for many years and many pleasant miles until I got hit by a car and the frame was totalled. I now have a Specialized bike and am happy with but I long for my CT-1 back.

Every once in a while I look on Craig's List and EBay and Amazon for a used Ti frameset (or even a complete bike) but in my 61cm size they seem to be pretty much non-existent. 

Titanium has a magic carpet ride that will never be equaled by anything out there. Once you ride one you are converted for life IMO.


----------



## Bizman (Apr 27, 2011)

My new 29er is Carbon (coming from an aluminum 26er) and it is a great bike! After deciding to get into road biking I was looking at carbon but was swayed to go steel or Ti for the longevity factor. I went Ti and got the Lynskey R340, it rides and looks beautiful, and should last me the rest of my life!


----------



## carsareexpensive (Sep 25, 2011)

I have always loved steel. I have ridden them through New England winters without a problem. Ti is a nice alternative but also more expensive. Carbon tends to weigh less but doesn't feel the same to me.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Wow...guess you showed me.


I just found this. Ramjm I was trying to make you laugh not put you down!! lighten up man! Smile and the whole world smiles at you.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Uh…ok. Better late than never I guess. For what it’s worth If you want to be perceived as a “happy” individual I’d limit the use of exclamation points and sarcasm in your posts, you come off as a bitter curmudgeon. Back to the topic at hand…


----------



## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Over all design is what makes a bike ride the way it rides, materials have little to do with anything.

Personally give me a very well designed Al bike and I'll be a happy camper with a little money left in the bank. 

My days of spending $3K and up on a carbon frame are over, I don't think I can bring myself to do that anymore especially since I have so many bikes right now and I have fun on any of them equally.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Uh…ok. Better late than never I guess. For what it’s worth If you want to be perceived as a “happy” individual I’d limit the use of exclamation points and sarcasm in your posts, you come off as a bitter curmudgeon. Back to the topic at hand…


You're a very good sport, for what's worth old chap keep your pecker up and quit throwing a wobbly.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> You're a very good sport, for what's worth old chap keep your pecker up and quit throwing a wobbly.


Sure...whatever you say chief. :frown2:


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

You 2 make a lovely couple.
How long have you been married?


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Lord forbid...


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Lord forbid...


God does forbid it...isn't that why we do it?


----------



## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

froze said:


> I don't think TI is all the expensive to fix, otherwise you wouldn't *be able to buy a full TI bike with CF forks and all Dura Ace components for $2,000.* If TI was expensive to fix then it only stands to reason it would be expensive to build new, but with a new TI frame starting at $1000 including the fork and the profit margin, then I doubt fixing a TI bike would cost more then $200 at the manufactures cost and probably way less then that. I wouldn't be surprised if the shipping cost of the frame exceeds the cost to fix it.


I have a steel bike (853) and an aluminum one. I've been seriously considering adding a third and I'd like to get titanium. I didn't realize one could be had for $2000 with good components as well. Could someone please provide some examples of Ti bikes in this price range?


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

JasonB176 said:


> I have a steel bike (853) and an aluminum one. I've been seriously considering adding a third and I'd like to get titanium. I didn't realize one could be had for $2000 with good components as well. Could someone please provide some examples of Ti bikes in this price range?


Save up to 60% off Road Bikes, Titanium Road Bikes, Dura Ace Road Bikes, Ultegra Road Bikes - bikesdirect.com Scan down about 3/4ths the way down till you see the listing for Titanium bikes, they have 7 different kinds from 5 different road models to 2 different cross models in a variety of price ranges. BUT, they are running low on stock on some models and or sizes from what I've heard, but they will backorder if you want one and don't mind the wait.


----------



## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

froze said:


> Save up to 60% off Road Bikes, Titanium Road Bikes, Dura Ace Road Bikes, Ultegra Road Bikes - bikesdirect.com Scan down about 3/4ths the way down till you see the listing for Titanium bikes, they have 7 different kinds from 5 different road models to 2 different cross models in a variety of price ranges. BUT, they are running low on stock on some models and or sizes from what I've heard, but they will backorder if you want one and don't mind the wait.


I don't know much about the Motobecane brand but they sure look sweet. I'm really impressed with the components and wheels that come with them. I don't about mail-order though. The price is unbelievably good but to buy a bike like that without a test ride and without a fitting...? I ride a size 54 in Specialized and 53 in Jamis. The Jamis has always felt slightly small so I wonder what the Motobecane size 53 would be like. It jumps up to 56 so my only choice would be the 53. I'm also not particularly mechanically inclined so would probably have to take their suggestion of having my LBS put it together.

Having said all that, I'm lusting after these! Thanks for the pointer.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

JasonB176 said:


> I don't know much about the Motobecane brand but they sure look sweet. I'm really impressed with the components and wheels that come with them. I don't about mail-order though. The price is unbelievably good but to buy a bike like that without a test ride and without a fitting...? I ride a size 54 in Specialized and 53 in Jamis. The Jamis has always felt slightly small so I wonder what the Motobecane size 53 would be like. It jumps up to 56 so my only choice would be the 53. I'm also not particularly mechanically inclined so would probably have to take their suggestion of having my LBS put it together.
> 
> Having said all that, I'm lusting after these! Thanks for the pointer.


First off, there are expensive custom built bikes being made and delivered to people all over the world that they, the buyer, never pre test rode or went for a fitting to obtain, and very very few are ever unhappy with the fit. Bikes from Richard Sachs, Rivendell, and a slew of others rarely get most of their customers through the doors. If you want a pro fitting and all of that goes with it then buy a Serrota, but when your done with a Serrota custom fit bike and fitting you'll be no further ahead then getting a Moots or a Lynskey!

If you want to spend the money for a custom fitting, which I personally never had done because I have always been able to dial it in myself, but you could take the bike to the LBS to have it checked and assembled then have them do a fitting on it when their done assembling it. Personally, again just my opinion, I think fittings are nothing more then an attempt to get people to pay for a fitting and then to buy expensive products they recommend to make the fitting work. I've known quite a few people who had these fittings done and I would say about half came out better and the other half came out worse. But my body isn't all that picky even though it's an older 58 year old body, I've got 7 road bikes and they range from 55 to 57cm and they all fit me great, I can ride either of the bikes for a 100 miles and not be crying about the fit. Some people that would never work, not sure if its psychological or physical or both.

I have one bike custom made, a Mercian Vincitore in 07 after a visit to their shop in Derby and they custom measured me without charge. Is it the best riding bike I've ever owned? Nah, it's about the same as the others! It's a touring bike so the ride is more like a luxury car instead of a sports car, but my 85 Schwinn LeTour Luxe rides the same if not a tad better!

Anyway I wouldn't be scared of a mail order bike. Read the reviews, there are a lot of review on this site concerning those Motobecane TI bikes and everyone likes them...so far anyways.


----------



## mik (Jan 15, 2008)

Ti is not DEAD! Just received my 2011 Lynskey Helix.... My first TI bike and after about 100 miles I am absolutely sold, happier than [email protected]# !! Never road TI before hoppin on this.... Closest dealer was 3 hours drive from my location and wasn't realistic to go for a test ride put my TRUST in The Guys in Chattanooga and they got it right...Off-The-Peg Size XL in bright brush finish with etched logos....I knew the stem would probably need to be lengthened and it did 110 to 130 did the trick....Beautiful piece of American Made functional Industrial Art and craftsmanship!!

18.5 lbs..: Size XL, Enve 2.0 fork, Force compact with speedplay X2's, dura ace tubeless wheels (using tubes), Thompson Elite post, Fizik Saddle, FSA bars, Easton EA70 stem

Past rides Schwinn Traveler, Cannondale, Schwinn Circuit, Trek 2300, (2) Trek OCLV's, Pedal Force ZX3


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I have a weird question about the Lynskey Helix. What is the twist in the frame suppose to do? I've heard for years that twisting the tube did nothing, but I'm not a frame builder thus I know nothing about this sort of thing.


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

mik said:


> Ti is not DEAD! Just received my 2011 Lynskey Helix.... My first TI bike and after about 100 miles I am absolutely sold, happier than [email protected]# !! Never road TI before hoppin on this.... Closest dealer was 3 hours drive from my location and wasn't realistic to go for a test ride put my TRUST in The Guys in Chattanooga and they got it right...Off-The-Peg Size XL in bright brush finish with etched logos....I knew the stem would probably need to be lengthened and it did 110 to 130 did the trick....Beautiful piece of American Made functional Industrial Art and craftsmanship!!
> 
> 18.5 lbs..: Size XL, Enve 2.0 fork, Force compact with speedplay X2's, dura ace tubeless wheels (using tubes), Thompson Elite post, Fizik Saddle, FSA bars, Easton EA70 stem
> 
> Past rides Schwinn Traveler, Cannondale, Schwinn Circuit, Trek 2300, (2) Trek OCLV's, Pedal Force ZX3


Excellent choice and welcome to the family!


----------



## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

froze said:


> I have a weird question about the Lynskey Helix. What is the twist in the frame suppose to do? I've heard for years that twisting the tube did nothing, but I'm not a frame builder thus I know nothing about this sort of thing.


Increase torsional, horizontal, and vertical stiffness by 35%. Basically surpasses the stiffness of denser (and heavier) 6/4 Ti with lighter 3/2.5 Ti while retaining the ride characteristics of 3/2.5.


----------



## tski (May 11, 2009)

*Ti - Alive and well.*

Just in....after many many months waiting while the fine folks at IF moved factories. This is one of the first few batches of frames to roll out of the Newmarket, NH facility. It's my first IF and my first Ti ride. She shares space with a Paul Taylor steel and TIME RXR VIP - so titanium fills out the stable well and perpetuates the futile quest for N+1 bikes while carefully treading the line of that other formula (see: Velominati Rule #12 => s-1) that can lead to "marital and family discord".

IF Ti Crown Jewel with an ENVE 2.0 fork. 3/4 paint with jersey panels, alloy 3T cockpit (ROTUNDO bars) and finished with Brooks tape and saddle. Fulcrum Racing 1's (less the decals) and Hutchinson tubeless add to the plush ride. Campy Record 11 ensures a dependable and crisp transmission. First ride impressions are positive. Not as quick or light as the TIME, but as a daily driver she's as confident and assertive as I need her to be.


----------

