# Negative TSB.. How far do you push?



## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

So I got thinking last night looking at my performance management chart in WKO.. When you are in a hard training block how far do you push it as far as a negative training stress balance? -10, -20, -30 or more? 

I find that I start feeling some strong fatigue when I get into the -30's. When I recovery and bounce back from there to a slightly negative balance I feel much stronger and I'm ready to push it again.

So.. How about you all?


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

Long answer, but.....

I picked up a power tap in September. Based on the previous years' non-power training using a Friel adapted plan, I decided to apply power based workouts to what I had been doing with some further adaptations.

I found that the 3 weeks 'on' one 'off' cycle left me dangling in overtraining land by the 'rest' week. I now do a 2 'on', one reduced cycle (base 1,2,3.1, 3.2, build 1, 2.1, 2.2 peak, race). In using power now, I found that the three weeks likely drove my TSB down to -40 or -50+. I have seen -40 a few times since Sept, becuase I use a ramp rate of 7 for the on weeks (14 over 2 weeks) with a back slide of 2-4 on the reduced weeks. 

This has worked for outside (non-cycling) scheduling to get stuff donw, but I actually feel really good when I have a negative TSB, but like crap when in +TSB. It's almost like my legs know the road of suffering and enjoy it, but when they are not there, they balk.....

I have not figured it out. Just this week, I was in +10 TSB from 2 days off for travel and not having the time to maintain a CTL of 115 the previous week. The first 3 days back on, felt like crap. Now, my TSB yesterday was sloping down (I think it was +2 and falling) but my workout yesterday was almost a no-chain day. 

From reading and over at wattage forum, it seems to be highly variable. It sounds like you have a good picture of yours, and it is 'normal'. Mine seems to be the opposite.

Any input? (Not to steal your thread too much though);


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't rest a ton.. Instead I do a lot of active recovery. I find that my legs lock up if I don't ride. On that note I've only been off the bike 13 days since Jan 1st. 

Typically I'll do a large push for 3-4 days then back off a little for a few days. My TSB rarely goes positive. I tapered to a positive TSB of +8 before my race at Battenkill and felt slow all week but rode great in the race. 

I'm in the same boat.. I usually feel the best around -10 or so. During my rest blocks that is where I like to stay for a bit. So far this season my CTL has steadily risen and only dipped once when I tapered. I try to maintain the load in a stair step pattern. Seems to work. 

Would love to get on a webex or similar and chat with a more experienced power user and look at WKO with them. Suggestions and alternate views are always helpful!


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

I've had my TSB all the way into the -60 range during training camp this spring and took it all the way up to +30 just last week...Finally after 4 weeks I can safely say I have recovered from camp and the legs are getting ready for some work...

I watch my TSB, but don't really pay attention to it....That's why I have a coach 

He's keeps an eye on it and looks at my numbers to judge true fatigue...


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

I've gone down to -60, but I'm not sure how useful it is. Long period of time in the -15 to -25 range seem to yield the best results.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

sdeeer said:


> Long answer, but.....
> 
> I picked up a power tap in September. Based on the previous years' non-power training using a Friel adapted plan, I decided to apply power based workouts to what I had been doing with some further adaptations.
> 
> ...


CTL of 115? There's a really good chance your FTP is set too low.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

I've hit -70 to -80 four separate times (over 3 years). The first resulted in injury, the second in injury, the third in overtraining, and the 4th worked out perfectly.

It's now about how negative you can get. It's more about how adept you are to handling such limits. Typically, if you can even get that low in the first place, you weren't training enough beforehand and you went on a cycling vacation for 7-10 days.

Either way, I do not recommended it.

edit: 3 years, not 2.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> CTL of 115? There's a really good chance your FTP is set too low.


I retest about every 3 to 6 weeks using the 20 min test *.95. I do plenty of 95% of FTP 2x30's that are not overally easy and when I do 2x20's at FTP, I suffer pretty good (AKA I don't think it is/was set too low). I would have to be EXTREMELY motivated to post an actual 60 min at FTP. I really strugle with steady state at FTP and above for more than 10 minutes. Especially the last 10 min of that second 2x20 at FTP.

I use GC if that makes a difference.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

sdeeer said:


> I retest about every 3 to 6 weeks using the 20 min test *.95. I do plenty of 95% of FTP 2x30's that are not overally easy and when I do 2x20's at FTP, I suffer pretty good (AKA I don't think it is/was set too low). I would have to be EXTREMELY motivated to post an actual 60 min at FTP. I really strugle with steady state at FTP and above for more than 10 minutes. Especially the last 10 min of that second 2x20 at FTP.
> 
> I use GC if that makes a difference.


I'd look at it harder if you ramped to that CTL very quickly, but people have different tolerances and 115 isn't that extreme, I think. I see a five-month period in my records where my CTL never dropped below 112 and was above 120 for seven consecutive weeks, with a good monthly 20-minute test to set my CP60 (and some reality testing by way of normalized power during races to back it up). I was ready for the offseason when it arrived.


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