# Decent training and unstructured riding



## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Hi,
First a bit about myself, i'm 27, 183cm, 83kg. I love cycling so inevitably i ended up riding everyday and concluding that not only do i love cycling, i also love the sensation of speed. So about 18months ago i started going on 'training' rides. These were essentially just 2hour solo hammer sessions depending on how i felt that day. The training helped me reach my first goal of being fit enough to ride 6 days a week. My second goal was being able to ride all day at a nice tempo, which brings me up to my post. What sort of training sessions would you do that would allow you to feel good enough to ride 6 days a week (i like 2hours on weekdays and 5+hours on weekends) and yet get a decent workout.

Being an engineering type i succumbed to the siren calls of a powertap so that i could track my progress. I'm currently at;

5s = 1000W
1min = 550W
5min = 410W
20min = 330W
60min = 315W
120min = 290W

I'm currently doing;

day1: 2x20min @ 270W (big ring hill repeats)
day2: 4x10min @ 300W (normal cadence hill repeats)
day2: 2hr at 270W (tempo/riding around)
day3: 2hr at 270W (tempo/riding around)
day4: 2hr at 240W (riding around)
day5: off day
day6: 5hr at 250W (tempo/riding around)
day7: 5hr at 250W (fast group ride/riding around)

I really love the "tempo/riding around" days as my legs usually feel good and i get to ride without structure. However it feels like if i want to get faster i'll have to do some more structure? What do folks think?


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

the one training truism is that what you train is what you'll be able to do. if you don't up the ante, you'll pretty much keep being able to do what you do. If you ride around a lot at a certain tempo, that's what you'll be able to do.
as for your numbers -- whatever. they seem like . . . perfectly nice numbers, as numbers go, but numbers are benchmarks relative to you. they don't tell much about how fast you are, which is also about mental skills, and technique, and nutrition, etc.
I also note that you consistently are training at lower numbers than you seem to able to sustain -- that's not going to get you much improvement.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

You should take day 2 or day 3 as a recovery ride day. I doubt you're able to put out quality power during your intervals. Where's the VO2max and anaerobic work? It's the middle of June...


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I like how you have 8 days in your training week; as long as you don't overtrain you should be flying before long.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


> I like how you have 8 days in your training week; as long as you don't overtrain you should be flying before long.


Two of them are day 2. Presumably he does his first 10min intervals, followed by steady state riding.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks for the input guys, yeah, the days aren't listed well. iliveonnitro got it right, i just ride around after the 4x10s on day2. Nutrition is fine, i just eat a balanced diet and carry sufficient food for rides and after all the riding my technique has evolved naturally. Bill does make a good point regarding training under my maximal numbers, this is a side effect of having to ride everyday. I have done the 4x10min at 330-350W before but it did leave my legs a lot more spent the next day. Perhaps i should persist with that and see what happens anyway. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> You should take day 2 or day 3 as a recovery ride day. I doubt you're able to put out quality power during your intervals. Where's the VO2max and anaerobic work? It's the middle of June...


Thats the great thing about the "just riding" days and the most fun! You can just do VO2max and anaerobic intervals at any time. This is usually 5 minutes going flat out on a stretch of flat road or up a hill. Regarding recovery days, i eventually get tired and unable to handle my normal pace and take an additional 2-3 days off riding. This usually happens every 2 weeks.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Based on everyone's input, i'll be trying the following for the next 21 days and see how i feel.

Thanks!

day1: recovery ride
day2: 4x10min @ 330-350W (normal cadence hill repeats)
day3: 2hr at 250W (riding around)
day4: 4x10min @ 330-350W (normal cadence hill repeats)
day5: off day
day6: 3-4hr at 270W (tempo/riding around)
day7: 5hr at 250W (fast group ride/riding around)


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

No, you cannot just do VO2max whenever you'd like in a ride. The reason you do all interval sin the begging is to get the best quality out of them. If you aren't hurting the next day from intervals shorter than 20min, you did them wrong.

I would swap day 4 with 2x20min, but that is just me. 10min has too much anaerobic involved. Swap day 2 for 6x5min at 370 watts. Working on VO2max increases the "ceiling" at which you can hold your threshold power. I would also swap your off day with your recovery ride day, if that is feasible.

In reality, since it's June, I would be doing 3 days of anaerobic work -- 30-60s intervals -- but that is just me.


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## reikisport (Aug 16, 2006)

iliveonnitro said:


> No, you cannot just do VO2max whenever you'd like in a ride. The reason you do all interval sin the begging is to get the best quality out of them. If you aren't hurting the next day from intervals shorter than 20min, you did them wrong.
> 
> 
> I disagree from my past experience (and with the clients I work with). Sure you can do these towards the end of a ride. If you think about it when's the hardest part of a race the end thats when all the attacks happen so it makes sense to be able to very hard when you've already done lots of work. That said not evry work out but you can and should try to add this type of thing into your program.
> Same goes with doing vO2Max work of course you can do these 2 days in a row providing you go into it with a good base and are well recovered. As long as you can hit the numbers(PM) why not? Again not something I would recommend to a newer athlete but sure why not.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

My regular rides have been following the "Chunk Ride" as described in;
http://biketechreview.com/performance/stripped_down_2.htm the basic methodology of which allows for unstructured training.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

reikisport said:


> iliveonnitro said:
> 
> 
> > No, you cannot just do VO2max whenever you'd like in a ride. The reason you do all interval sin the begging is to get the best quality out of them. If you aren't hurting the next day from intervals shorter than 20min, you did them wrong.
> ...


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

function said:


> My regular rides have been following the "Chunk Ride" as described in;
> http://biketechreview.com/performance/stripped_down_2.htm the basic methodology of which allows for unstructured training.


Why did you ask? - TF


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

TurboTurtle said:


> Why did you ask? - TF


Why did i originally post? I was and am always looking for external input with regards to improvement. I posted that link so that people following the thread can see what the basis of my unstructured training was. I'm still interested in hearing how far this has gotten other people and whether i'd be better off with more structure. I'll be following some of the advice posted and doing 2-3 structured days a week at a higher intensity than i originally was doing and seeing where that gets me.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

The idea of the "stripped down" training program is opposite to what you are doing. He never just rides around. In one of his examples, he gets on his bike and does 20min of threshold work for a short 45min ride. 10-15min warm-up, 20min at threshold, 10-15min cool-down.

His "chuck ride" is just a NP (Normalized Power) buster and is nothing new. It's a group ride where you do most of the pulls, most of the chasing, and most of the attacks.

There is very little about just riding around and he labels it a "fill ride" for weight loss. It also seems that your definition of threshold riding is different from his. His threshold riding means time _above_ his 60MP and close to, if not above his 20MP. Never does he JRA -- in fact, it's the antithesis.

He has good ideas, but you have a lot more time to ride than he does and should thus focus your attention on better quality _and _more time in specific zones, rather than just high-quality for the bare minimum amount of time.


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## reikisport (Aug 16, 2006)

iliveonnitro said:


> reikisport said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for slaughtering my spelling in my previous post. I just came back from a 6hr ride.
> ...


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

reikisport said:


> iliveonnitro said:
> 
> 
> > WHY?
> ...


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

reikisport said:


> WHY?
> Many coachs and a well known PHD (who has has some of his riders do hillclimbs efforts after doing 3000Kj of work) have their athletes do this type of training.


Agree.

If you want to win races, your hard efforts usually end up at the end of a 3-4 hour day. Best to train this way also. 

Read Van den Bosch, interesting Euro-perspective(and some amazing program insight).


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

OP: Define your goals better. You are already doing what you have set out to do (ride 6 times per week) at some reasonable pace..for you.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

*Goals*



Spunout said:


> OP: Define your goals better. You are already doing what you have set out to do (ride 6 times per week) at some reasonable pace..for you.


Since I'll never be pro  my main goal is just personal improvement, i enjoy the challenge of pushing myself, for cycling that means going faster (distance stopped being an issue a while ago). I'd like to be around 340-350W for 60minutes within the next 18 months. Thanks again for all the responses, there has been some great input.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

*Chunk Ride*



iliveonnitro said:


> The idea of the "stripped down" training program is opposite to what you are doing. He never just rides around. In one of his examples, he gets on his bike and does 20min of threshold work for a short 45min ride. 10-15min warm-up, 20min at threshold, 10-15min cool-down.
> 
> His "chuck ride" is just a NP (Normalized Power) buster and is nothing new. It's a group ride where you do most of the pulls, most of the chasing, and most of the attacks.
> 
> There is very little about just riding around and he labels it a "fill ride" for weight loss. It also seems that your definition of threshold riding is different from his. His threshold riding means time _above_ his 60MP and close to, if not above his 20MP. Never does he JRA -- in fact, it's the antithesis.


I don't JRA, i just rack up time at or above 20MP which results in 2hr at 270W, which is analagous to his 'chunk ride'. The chunk ride is the only technique i was referring to in that article. The reason why i call it unstructured is because you can just go out and do whatever feels good instead of following a set training plan (X intervals at Y power etc etc).

Thanks


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

you should give some racing a shake. If you like the regiment of the training it's a good step to take. 

Glad to see you put another rest day of active recovery. Sounded like you were pushing it a bit much.


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## Davis69 (Mar 20, 2007)

TurboTurtle said:


> reikisport said:
> 
> 
> > OT, but why would you ever say, "a well known PHD" without saying his name? Some kind of mystical secret? - TF
> ...


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## zariaman (Feb 13, 2008)

function said:


> Based on everyone's input, i'll be trying the following for the next 21 days and see how i feel.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...



You had really put in the time to create a good training plan. I noticed in later posts you started some SST training, do your training days differ a lot from last year now that you have included SST training?


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Yeah i changed things a lot, this was last week;

day1: 2hr recovery ride
day2: 2hr at IF=0.85-0.9 (SST)
day3: 2hr at IF=0.85-0.9 (SST)
day4: 4x10min at IF=0.95-1.1 + 1hr at IF=0.8
day5: off day
day6: 3-4hr at IF=0.8-0.85 (SST)
day7: 3hr at IF=0.7-0.8 (SST)

It's really helped me!


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

What kind of TSS did that add up to for the week (assuming you're using WKO+).


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Undecided said:


> What kind of TSS did that add up to for the week (assuming you're using WKO+).


915, but that's a hard week, they usually vary between 500-900 with 500 being an 'off' week.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Function, maybe it bears repeating - if you want to get faster, you're gonna have to spend time in the pain zone, going considerably faster than you can sustain. VO2 intervals, even some anaerobic work. 

Otherwise, I would add the usual observation about self-coached riders: the hard parts aren't hard enough and the easy parts aren't easy enough.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Creakyknees said:


> Function, maybe it bears repeating - if you want to get faster, you're gonna have to spend time in the pain zone, going considerably faster than you can sustain. VO2 intervals, even some anaerobic work.
> 
> Otherwise, I would add the usual observation about self-coached riders: the hard parts aren't hard enough and the easy parts aren't easy enough.


I agree, although of course it depends on how he's doing with this program (and I'm not sure whether that's his typical program, or just happens to have been one week, although I thought he meant it was more-or-less typical). Function, I'm curious as to what you see as your "limiters" in races? If I followed that program, for example, I think I would struggle on power climbs and bridging gaps. I could see how, with a naturally strong sprint, a racer in a flat area might not worry much about those issues, though.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks for the input Creaky, i think it's not obvious from the IF numbers how hard the rides are. My FTP is 340W and this is what the daily SST at IF=0.85-0.9 tend to look like, my general plan is tempo at 300W with sections at 330-400W depending on the hill, flat section of road, whatever. Lots of vo2max and threshold efforts in there; Regarding 'easy' parts, i've been doing sports my entire life so i'm good at gauging when my body needs rest.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Undecided said:


> I agree, although of course it depends on how he's doing with this program (and I'm not sure whether that's his typical program, or just happens to have been one week, although I thought he meant it was more-or-less typical). Function, I'm curious as to what you see as your "limiters" in races? If I followed that program, for example, I think I would struggle on power climbs and bridging gaps. I could see how, with a naturally strong sprint, a racer in a flat area might not worry much about those issues, though.


My main limiters are, experience and my power ratio isn't great for really long climbs (20min+) so those kinds of road races, i don't expect to be in the lead group unless we rode a flat section of road for 1-2hrs before the climb. My strengths are breakaways, power climbs, bridging, short power stuff and I tend to do best in long (3-4hr) road races on a rolling course with hills that are 1-5minutes long.


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## Shaggybx (Feb 2, 2008)

You're doing great man.
I think you're being a little too hard on yourself.
Those are great numbers.
You'll get where you want to be in 18 months.
Rock on bro !:thumbsup:


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## Donzo98 (Oct 1, 2008)

function said:


> Thanks for the input Creaky, i think it's not obvious from the IF numbers how hard the rides are. My FTP is 340W and this is what the daily SST at IF=0.85-0.9 tend to look like, my general plan is tempo at 300W with sections at 330-400W depending on the hill, flat section of road, whatever. Lots of vo2max and threshold efforts in there; Regarding 'easy' parts, i've been doing sports my entire life so i'm good at gauging when my body needs rest.


WOW!! You are an animal. I just recently bought a PowerTap so I can really appreciate what those numbers mean now. Really impressive... at least to me.


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