# Lemond breaks new details about Landis test



## lavamantis (Apr 6, 2004)

On the "Today" show today, Lemond revealed new details about Landis' positive test. He said:

"I've heard the A sample... the isotope shows an actual _*foreign testosterone*_ that's been put into the body..."

WHAT??? How does he know this? Basically he's revealing a new detail that would be pretty condemning. Considering that 4 out of 5 media outlets are inexplicably getting the main detail of the positive test wrong (eg. misleadingly saying "elevated testosterone" rather than "elevated t/e ratio") you'd think that they'd be falling all over themselves to report this additional pseudo-fact as well.

You can watch the video here (IE only):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

lavamantis said:


> On the "Today" show today, Lemond revealed new details about Landis' positive test. He said:
> 
> "I've heard the A sample... the isotope shows an actual _*foreign testosterone*_ that's been put into the body..."
> 
> ...


You forget, Lemond is the Santa Claus of dope......he knows when you've been naughty or nice.......


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Especially since that's not the test that's performed. 

Greg, it was great when you used to talk with your legs. Now, not so much.


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## Der Kranz (Jun 14, 2005)

when does the knight in a suit of armor walk up and whack lemond upside the head with a rubber chicken?


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## WampaOne (May 28, 2004)

danl1 said:


> Especially since that's not the test that's performed.
> Greg, it was great when you used to talk with your legs. Now, not so much.


As I didnt see the lemond interview where the comments about isotopes was said I can not comment specifically on this. However, the GC-MS test would absolutly revel the presence of isotopically enriched testosterone.
For instance, if he were stupid enough to take testosterone which had been enriched with 13C or 2H this could still be detected by GC-MS. The retention time woudl be the same as for testosterone (slightly shifted for a 2H enriched sample). However, the mass woudl be different. Despite this its MS-MS spectra would match that of testosterone but with the mass shifted due to the extra mass from the heavy carbons.
Someone, might have thought the test could be beat this way but they would bey wrong.


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## Der Kranz (Jun 14, 2005)

WampaOne said:


> As I didnt see the lemond interview where the comments about isotopes was said I can not comment specifically on this. However, the GC-MS test would absolutly revel the presence of isotopically enriched testosterone.
> For instance, if he were stupid enough to take testosterone which had been enriched with 13C or 2H this could still be detected by GC-MS. The retention time woudl be the same as for testosterone (slightly shifted for a 2H enriched sample). However, the mass woudl be different. Despite this its MS-MS spectra would match that of testosterone but with the mass shifted due to the extra mass from the heavy carbons.
> Someone, might have thought the test could be beat this way but they would bey wrong.


maybe he used the tritiated version and_ that _explains why he hammered so well on stage 17...


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

hey greg:


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## BikinCO (Feb 17, 2004)

Greg is kinda like Capt. Kangaroo. Years ago I watched him and thought he was cool, but when I see him on TV now, I think he's pretty lame.


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## Bokchoy (Jul 25, 2006)

*Captain Kangaroo ain't looking too good these days*



BikinCO said:


> Greg is kinda like Capt. Kangaroo. Years ago I watched him and thought he was cool, but when I see him on TV now, I think he's pretty lame.


Yeah, the Captain is looking pretty lame now that he's been dead since January, 2004.

Needs a better makeup man.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Greg, I think Hinault is aging more gracefully.


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## Praetorian27 (Jul 30, 2004)

How could someone who was such a hero of mine years ago turn out to be such a douchebag?


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## toshi (Dec 29, 2005)

lavamantis said:


> On the "Today" show today, Lemond revealed new details about Landis' positive test. He said:
> 
> "I've heard the A sample... the isotope shows an actual _*foreign testosterone*_ that's been put into the body..."
> 
> WHAT??? How does he know this? Basically he's revealing a new detail that would be pretty condemning. Considering that 4 out of 5 media outlets are inexplicably getting the main detail of the positive test wrong (eg. misleadingly saying "elevated testosterone" rather than "elevated t/e ratio") you'd think that they'd be falling all over themselves to report this additional pseudo-fact as well.


LeMond loves the sound of his own voice. Unfortunately, the general public hasn't been let in on this little tidbit just yet.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

I am sick and tired of all the LeMond bashing. It is simply unjustified. I watched the video twice now and the vast majority of it seemed reasonable and fair. Moreover, he said quite a few positive things about Floyd, such as how he is such a good guy, that he was very excited when Floyd won, etc. He also said that in no way was he suspicious after the 17th stage and explained that a full recovery from the Bonk in just one night is quite possible and common. 

It is very easy sitting here in our high chairs to make judgments about others. Lance Armstrong is not a god and Greg LeMond is not the devil. At least Greg did not dump his wife to "upgrade", which Greg could easily have done in 1989 or 1990. Now, probably not, but who knows, I hear here is a pilot.


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## Magsdad (Jun 29, 2005)

*Just my .02 cents...*

I'm not a doctor....I only play one on T.V.:

I was and still am a Lemond fan, but he is really irritating people. I think he did wonderful things for cycling in this country, but his relevance has worn off to the point that maybe he believes he is no longer viable, a sure sign of self esteem problems. Lance, on the other hand, is so much more "hip" (take it as you will) to today's culture in that he sells himself better than almost any other athlete. And the simple fact is that most Americans are so glutinous that we look at 3 Tours and say "WTF, that's the best you ca do???" That is, if they even know where or what France is.  

I don’t dislike him like others, but I will say that Lemond does exude this aura that he is spouting every little thing that comes into his mind without actually clarifying or putting it into a concise series of thoughts. Therefore, he seems as if he is waffling and ‘wacky’ as some have described him. His “verbal diarrhea” can come off in a very negative and condescending manner, something that he seems to do consistently. Whether he means to do this or not, it’s all about the perception.

And the point is? What Lemond has experienced is the same thing most people feel at 65, athletes experience at 35 (if lucky), and actresses experience at 25: The cruel fate of being forgotten. It sticks in his gut that someone is considered better than him, especially when he believes that he doesn’t deserve it. Lance is very similiar in his personality and in his ambitions, but he is much more accomplished when it comes to his television image.

The things I would be most upset about: “If the B sample comes back positive, then I hope Floyd comes out and takes the high road….”, as well as anything that he has no privy to. If I KNEW I was innocent, that statement would make me angry! That’s why Lance’s “no comment until more testing is done” is the right thing to say.

Do I know any of these people?? NO. Just some thoughts.

Da-vis Phin-ney! [Clap-Clap-Clap-Clap-Clap]


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## Edgecrusher (Jan 12, 2006)

lemon-head is one of the biggest dicks on two legs.

Shut the F*ck up greg


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## fivorgr (Apr 6, 2006)

Lemond is just upset that he isn't the darling of American cycling anymore. Any American that wins the Tour, LeMond will agree that they were doping or what ever. Now that he isn't the only American tour winner he's mad that he's lost his luster. Lance did it better and more often, Floyd may or may not have a couple more years left depending on his hip, but had a great comeback and win, either way LeMond is just upset that the spot light is leaving him. It good he has a French sounding name because he been whining just like them.


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## axebiker (Aug 22, 2003)

Tschai said:


> At least Greg did not dump his wife to "upgrade", which Greg could easily have done in 1989 or 1990.


Grow up... WTF does that have to do with ANYTHING? What do YOU know about Lance's marriage? I'm guessing you must have been his counselor? Unless you know Lance personally, kindly shut you piehole. Get a clue, man...

Lemond is a bitter old manic depressive. He misses the spotlight and will grasp at ANYTHING to get his mug on TV. Personally, I think he's jealous of the fact that his incredible achievements were eclipsed, and because of the age we live in (24 hour news, hundreds of channels), Lance got ALOT more attention than he did. Poor old Greg - I wish he was still half the man I used to see him as...


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

axebiker said:


> Grow up... WTF does that have to do with ANYTHING? What do YOU know about Lance's marriage? I'm guessing you must have been his counselor? Unless you know Lance personally, kindly shut you piehole. Get a clue, man...
> 
> Lemond is a bitter old manic depressive. He misses the spotlight and will grasp at ANYTHING to get his mug on TV. Personally, I think he's jealous of the fact that his incredible achievements were eclipsed, and because of the age we live in (24 hour news, hundreds of channels), Lance got ALOT more attention than he did. Poor old Greg - I wish he was still half the man I used to see him as...


Bitter about your divorce, huh? Unless you are Lance, I know as much about his marriage as you do. So tell me, what do YOU know about Greg LeMond. Unless you know him personally, kindly shut YOUR piehole and stop making judgments and assumptions about his manhood, what he misses, whether he is bitter, manic depressive or a freaking alien from outerspace. 

Lance upgraded period. He became a star, so he dumped his wife to be with another star. That sucks way more than any comments Greg LeMond may have made or not made in or out of any context. Deal with it. Lance is not God.


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

So do you two really know what you are talking about or are you just talking out of you arse? If it is the former, please explain.


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## Dr_John (Oct 11, 2005)

WampaOne - You're confused about how isotope ratio mass spec is used to distinguish between endogenous and exogenous testosterone. It has nothing to do with synthetically taking 13C or 2H enriched compounds.



> One technique that can complement the measurement of T/E ratios is the use of gas chromatography coupled to isotope ratio mass spectrometry (GC-IRMS). This technique utilises the fact that natural and administered substances, such as testosterone, have small but measurable differences in the ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-13 isotopes (because of the different pathways used in the preparation of the natural and synthetic forms).
> 
> By measuring the C12:C13 ratio of steroids detected in urine, GC-IRMS can distinguish between administered and naturally occurring steroids and can identify steroid abuse in cases that would have previously gone undetected. The application of this technique is not simple - the instrumentation is expensive because of the high precision required, and larger sample sizes are needed, which increases the amount of sample preparation required before analysis.


http://www.measurement.gov.au/index...&objectID=B54CCEF6-BCD6-81AC-148843FC82CAB33E


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

axebiker said:


> Grow up... WTF does that have to do with ANYTHING? What do YOU know about Lance's marriage? I'm guessing you must have been his counselor? Unless you know Lance personally, kindly shut you piehole. Get a clue, man...
> 
> Lemond is a bitter old manic depressive. He misses the spotlight and will grasp at ANYTHING to get his mug on TV. Personally, I think he's jealous of the fact that his incredible achievements were eclipsed, and because of the age we live in (24 hour news, hundreds of channels), Lance got ALOT more attention than he did. Poor old Greg - I wish he was still half the man I used to see him as...


You guys are pathetic.


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

You have some issues to deal with, don't you?


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## axebiker (Aug 22, 2003)

Tschai said:


> Bitter about your divorce, huh?


Nope!  Happily married to the greatest thing since Kristen Armstrong OR Sheryl Crow! Thanks for checking though.


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## axebiker (Aug 22, 2003)

Live Steam said:


> So do you two really know what you are talking about or are you just talking out of you arse? If it is the former, please explain.


My arse. Mostly.


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## axebiker (Aug 22, 2003)

wipeout said:


> You guys are pathetic.


But only on Fridays! Long work weeks make me that way. You should get to know me on a Monday!


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## Bryan (Sep 19, 2004)

WampaOne said:


> As I didnt see the lemond interview where the comments about isotopes was said I can not comment specifically on this. However, the GC-MS test would absolutly revel the presence of isotopically enriched testosterone.
> For instance, if he were stupid enough to take testosterone which had been enriched with 13C or 2H this could still be detected by GC-MS. The retention time woudl be the same as for testosterone (slightly shifted for a 2H enriched sample). However, the mass woudl be different. Despite this its MS-MS spectra would match that of testosterone but with the mass shifted due to the extra mass from the heavy carbons.
> Someone, might have thought the test could be beat this way but they would bey wrong.


.....


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Lemond initially praised Landis for winning the Tour and for doing it clean. Of course, he stuck his foot in his mouth on that one, so it seems (i.e., until the testing is finished). So, I doubt he is jealous that Landis won the Tour. If Lance won the Tour without doping, then I would say that Lemond is being a big baby over the whole Lance thing. However, how would you feel if your fame and glory were being eclipsed by a cheater, especially if you didn't cheat when you won.

On another note, how would you feel if you came in second to a cheater? Happened to me once in a race, and it truly sucked.


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## Anita Spankin (Oct 9, 2005)

Lots of testoserone flying around here!


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

And you know for a fact that Lance cheated, but LeMond didn't?


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## MLE (Jul 11, 2006)

Getting sick of LeMond

*Greg LeMond urges Landis to speak truth about doping charges*

In a veiled reference to seven-time winner Lance Armstrong, long dogged by doping allegations, LeMond added: "I hope that (Landis) won't do what another American did: Deny, deny, deny."

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news;_yl....grcF?slug=ap-landis-lemond&prov=ap&type=lgns


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

I don't think any of us on this board know anything for a fact. There are probably very few people that know anything for a fact about this issue, and the ones who do will not be posting on here because they are probably criminally responsible for their actions (i.e., helping these riders dope).

I never knew that the doping went back to the early 70's, so I will not say that Lemond wasn't doping. Honestly, I do not even want to watch professional cycling anymore.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

fabsroman said:


> On another note, how would you feel if you came in second to a cheater? Happened to me once in a race, and it truly sucked.


It does well and truly suck.

Al Gore


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## ballmon (Mar 23, 2005)

Greg LeMond is neither a doctor, lawyer, chemist, engineer, physicist, author, professor, scientist, or kindergarten teacher. He's a high school dropout MORON athlete who happens to have won the TDF. Treat him with all the respect he deserves.


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## JM714 (Jan 22, 2004)

The following is from today's LA Times and might explains Lemond's comments- 

"Although steroids traditionally are associated with strength-building, they can also be used to help the body recover from injury — or exertion — more quickly. Synthetic testosterone can, like other steroids, be delivered into the body in any number of ways: by spray, cream, injection, even a couple drops absorbed through the lining of the mouth. The French newspaper L'Equipe reported Friday that the lab that analyzed Landis' sample also performed what's called a "carbon isotope ratio analysis," and that test showed the testosterone was synthetically produced.

Wadler, stressing that he was not commenting on the validity of the L'Equipe report, said, "If you can show that the testosterone is of [synthetic] origin ... then it's a different question: how did that end up in your body?""


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## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

JM714 said:


> The French newspaper L'Equipe reported Friday that the lab that analyzed Landis' sample also performed what's called a "carbon isotope ratio analysis," and that test showed the testosterone was synthetically produced.


After learning of this "carbon isotope" test I was hoping it could be run to provide some conclusive, irrefutable results one way or the other. This lab, and particularly its relationship with the French press is beginning to concern me though. Apparently I'm not the only one, as this was the explanation provided by the UCI for prematurely releasing the information that a rider had failed a drug test ("If we didn't, they would have"). 

I never put much stock in the tampering theories put forth by Armstrong, Hamilton, et al in the past, but this latest behavior is making me wonder. I know most people in France don't have a vandetta against Americans in general/Americans who win their tour in particular- but all it takes is one or two in the right place...

Does anyone know if this is even SOP, to perform the more advanced isotope test before the B sample is tested at all?


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Miles E said:


> After learning of this "carbon isotope" test I was hoping it could be run to provide some conclusive, irrefutable results one way or the other. This lab, and particularly its relationship with the French press is beginning to concern me though. Apparently I'm not the only one, as this was the explanation provided by the UCI for prematurely releasing the information that a rider had failed a drug test ("If we didn't, they would have").
> 
> I never put much stock in the tampering theories put forth by Armstrong, Hamilton, et al in the past, but this latest behavior is making me wonder. I know most people in France don't have a vandetta against Americans in general/Americans who win their tour in particular- but all it takes is one or two in the right place...
> 
> Does anyone know if this is even SOP, to perform the more advanced isotope test before the B sample is tested at all?



I don't think Hamilton's testing was done at the same lab as the one in question in France. I don't think it is SOP but I do know that under the WADA guidlines it's up to the ADO to authorize this test not the lab. If the lab is still leaking to L'Equipe that might be a problem. I think the lab is funded or run by the Fench government so perhaps there's an argument that L'Equipe gets access to information under some freedom of information law. So many questions...

This is a good source of information: http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/GuidelineReportingManagementElevatedTERatios.pdf


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

fabsroman said:


> I never knew that the doping went back to the early 70's, so I will not say that Lemond wasn't doping. Honestly, I do not even want to watch professional cycling anymore.


Doping goes back to the very beginning of competitive cycling. By all accounts it was endemic in modern cycling prior to the Festina affair in '98 and the creation of WADA which finally brought some degree of objectivity to the testing. The irony of all this hoopla is that the sport is probably cleaner now than it's been in the last 30 or 40 years.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Did Lance finish high school? I am asking because I really do not know. I would be surprised to find out if most of the pro peloton has a high school degree, and would be completely shocked if any decent amount of them had a college degree.

Lance isn't a rocket scientist either. He is just a great story that the majority of people have latched on to. Does anybody ever stop to think that Lance's story might actually be one of gigantic cover up. He was doing commercials for one of the biggest drug companies in the US. Maybe that drug company was involved. Lance has enough money to litigate a person to death. He can hire attorneys that would just run up the legal bill for the adverse party such that the adverse party would have to quit or settle the case. There are so many unknowns with cycling right now, that it is really sad we are all wasting our time debating them.

What we should be doing is taking the time we spend on this board arguing about which of these famous millionaires is the best and worse, and we should use that time to volunteer at a soup kitchen, an abused women's clinic, plant a tree, help a kid, etc.

I am done with this issue until the tests on the B sample come back.


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## CrashDang (Nov 25, 2005)

MLE said:


> In a veiled reference to seven-time winner Lance Armstrong, long dogged by doping allegations, LeMond added: "I hope that (Landis) won't do what another American did: Deny, deny, deny."


I don't think that this is so much a veiled reference to Armstrong as it is an obvious reference to Hamilton.


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## Castagere (Jul 23, 2006)

You guys are really funny. We just have to wait and see what happens. I for one hope for the worst. This sport needs a big wake up call. I used to watch this sport years ago. Now i can't stand watching a bunch of dopers ruin it anymore.


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## randyg (Jul 7, 2004)

fabsroman said:


> Lance has enough money to litigate a person to death. He can hire attorneys that would just run up the legal bill for the adverse party such that the adverse party would have to quit or settle the case.


Correct me if I'm wrong but so far, Lance has either outright won the lawsuits he has brought or they have been dismissed due to lack of evidence. He's not had to settle out of court that I have heard. 



> I for one hope for the worst.


Nice!! It takes all kinds, I guess. Maybe Landis hopes you get a bad report during your next doctor's visit.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

I believe there was some arbitration dealing with a $5 million dollar payment to him after his last Tour win. The sponsor didn't want to make the payment because of doping allegations against Lance, and the issue was arbitrated. Arbitration is not the same as litigation. It is done behind closed doors and with no public access. Lance won this arbitration.

Also, regarding settlements, they can occur at any time and nobody would ever know about it. Plenty of cases are settled before they even get filed in Court. I do it a good amount, especially where personal injury auto accident cases are concerned. Further, a lot of settlement agreements have confidentiality clauses in them so nothing can ever be mentioned about the matter. So, if something is settled before it gets filed in Court, and the Settlement Agreement has a confidentiality clause in it, you will never hear anything about that matter.

Hence, we really have no idea about ALL the legal issues that Lance has dealt with over the years. We only know about the public portion, and I think you are right about that (i.e., he has won all of them).

Now, winning because you deserve to win, or just winning because you have the money to beat the other side to death, are two different things entirely. Look at the OJ Simpson case. He had a ton of money, and was able to hire the country's best criminal attorneys, so he got off. The state just did not have the funds to match what OJ was throwing at them. Litigation takes experts, which cost a ton of money. Just to get a doctor to testify on a personal injury auto accident case costs about $3,000, and that isn't the best doctor out there. What do you think it costs in these doping cases to hire experts regarding the testing and to have the testing analyzed, criticized, and performed?


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## WampaOne (May 28, 2004)

Actually, I was not confused in the least. As someone who is a bit of an expert in the field of mass spectrometry I fully understant the concepts, techniques, and theory of MS. I was attempting to explain, in the simpliest of situtations, that such a test would be easily be easy to identify isotope envelops from non-natural forms of testosterone. Perhaps using 13C enriched sampels and an example was not the best idea but I felt it would be an easy way for those not in the field to grasp the concepts fo how mass spec works. I am sorry if this caused more confusion.




Dr_John said:


> WampaOne - You're confused about how isotope ratio mass spec is used to distinguish between endogenous and exogenous testosterone. It has nothing to do with synthetically taking 13C or 2H enriched compounds.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.measurement.gov.au/index...&objectID=B54CCEF6-BCD6-81AC-148843FC82CAB33E


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## tjspahr (May 11, 2004)

Castagere said:


> You guys are really funny. We just have to wait and see what happens. I for one hope for the worst. This sport needs a big wake up call. I used to watch this sport years ago. Now i can't stand watching a bunch of dopers ruin it anymore.


Me too. Can't stand the dopers.

Now be quiet, there's a baseball game coming on...


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## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

rocco said:


> I don't think Hamilton's testing was done at the same lab as the one in question in France. http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/GuidelineReportingManagementElevatedTERatios.pdf


Yeah, I was just using him as an example of racers who have railed a drug test, only to claim that the system was stacked against them. The fact that this lab turned up Lance's positive result ~5 years down the road, and is now seemingly running it's own trial on Landis, in cahoots with L'Equipe the whole time, is what raises questions.


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## axebiker (Aug 22, 2003)

tjspahr said:


> Me too. Can't stand the dopers.
> 
> Now be quiet, there's a baseball game coming on...


LOL!! Good one!


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## Blue Sugar (Jun 14, 2005)

"Lemond is a bitter old manic depressive." 

I don't know. Maybe he's just angry at what's happening to the sport.


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