# Moots vs. Moots question



## tigoat

Wondering anybody has a Ti Moots made 6 years old and older as well as a "modern" Moots that is made in the last 3 years or so that you can compare their welds? I have had 2 older Moots and from a little I have seen, newer Moots just do not have the same fine weld beads like before? Two of the best Ti welders in the industry Brad and Chris left Moots so I wonder if these current newer welders are able to match what these master welders used to do. Thanks!


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## poff

True, new welds are not as good, but only slightly. Also, when I received my RSL the DT was welded 1.5mm off center of the BB.


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## tigoat

poff said:


> True, new welds are not as good, but only slightly. Also, when I received my RSL the DT was welded 1.5mm off center of the BB.


Hey appreciate the response. Damm, with the DT 1.5 mm off center, it is certainly not acceptable in my book, especially a RSL since it costs so much. I was thinking in terms of the beauty of the welds for this subject. They used to have some very fine and consistent overlapping beads but nowadays, those beads seem to be croaser and inconsisent in some areas. Again, I have not seen a newer one in peson so I am judging this mostly from pictures I have seen online. I have been thinking about getting another Moots but hate to be disappointed after owning some of the best welded Ti frames in the industry. Oh well perhaps, Eriksen would be my next choice since Chris is his welder now. Thanks!


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## Bobonli

poff said:


> True, new welds are not as good, but only slightly. Also, when I received my RSL the DT was welded 1.5mm off center of the BB.


Really?

I'm curious to know what you did about this. Did you call it to their attention?

I find this astonishing and wonder how it got out the door like that. My YBB is a work of craftsmanship, albeit about 5 years old. I'm starting to toy with the idea of a Moots road bike and this is disturbing news.

Wondering what they did or said about it.


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## pgsky

poff said:


> Also, when I received my RSL the DT was welded 1.5mm off center of the BB.


I'd also like to know what Moots had to say when you brought this to their attention. Was/is it an intentional offset, or truly a manufacturing defect? Were the seat tube and/or chain stays also offset? Was there any resolution? After all, the RSL is a $4K+ frame and it should be flawless IMO.

BTW, I have yet to find any flaw with my 2011 Moots Vamoots CR and if this is/was a manufacturing defect, it would certainly surprise me given Moots high standards.


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## poff

Moots built me a new frame, although they were not very happy about it. They told me that 1.5mm was within the tolerance range and would not affect the ride quality. New frame was flawless though, and rides great. I still have no beef with Moots.


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## Faapaa

This is no good news, I thought Moots had tighter tolerances than that. Although I've been wanting a Moots for years, but I'm certainly not going to spend 4k on that kind of craftmanship.


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## tigoat

Faapaa said:


> This is no good news, I thought Moots had tighter tolerances than that. Although I've been wanting a Moots for years, but I'm certainly not going to spend 4k on that kind of craftmanship.


Well even a Vamoots at 3.1k is no small amount of money, so it is to be expected that anything that comes out of Moots should be flawless. Of course, if you have never own the "best" Ti frame then you wouldn't have a baseline to compare anything to it. Nonetheless, I just have a feeling that Moots is not like it once was and hearing this story just confirms my feeling about it. I still have a VaMoots, which I am thinking about replacing it with another VaMoots with disc brakes. However, I think I am gonna hang on to it for good even after retiring it, as I don't think it will be replaceable. I am pharsing out all of my rim braked bikes with disc bikes and my VaMoots is the last one in my stable to be retired.


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## Faapaa

As far as I remember, Moots states in their brochure that they are building frames with the tightest tolerances in the business. I have and have owned several frames from top of the shelf, in both steel and ti. The ti was a indyfab. I know my bikes well, and I am pretty sure none of my frames had misalignments of this magnitude, if a tube is welded 1.5mm off-center it would be quite visible.


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## Bobonli

Let me put this out there, not as a defense of moots specifically but as a general observation by someone who'd prefer to invest in a really nice item and enjoy it for years. My Moots is about 4 years old. I just sold a 12 year old Serotta Ti.

Without hearing Moots' side of the story it's hard to know what is true and what is just one or two people sharing their isolated disappointment. The internet is super-efficient at spreading stories of dissatisfaction. Years, ago Moots used to participate in this forum, if I remember correctly. Shame they aren't part of the discussion now.

Is it possible their staff changed and the work is not as consistent? Yes. Is it possible one or two frames slipped through QC? Also probably "yes." There is no perfect manufacturing industry. I've yet to own a perfect anything assembled by a man, and that includes cars, bikes, furniture,motorcycles. I'm writing this as someone who sees a fingerprint on a paint job and worries that it's underneath the clear coat finish!

It's also possible they made mistakes and corrected them, as mentioned by the previous poster. If that's the case, then I think they (or any manufacturer) should not be punished. It's the frequency of mistakes that should be of concern, and we have no way of knowing that with any sort of accuracy. I bet you they track how many frames they have to "rebuild" and it would be nice to know that (from any manufacturer for that matter), but I doubt anyone would share that data. 

Just something to keep in mind. I'm thinking about moving to disc brakes on a road frame and Moots is under consideration. I haven't seen anything that would change my mind, any more than hearing that some people don't like their IPad would change my mind about buying one of those.


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## jcgill

This thread is very informative, as i am considering getting a moots in the next year or two, but this info is making me re-think.

The 1.5 mm off center issue sounds bad, but thinking about it further it seems like a minor offset. (1.5mm=0.0590551181 inches) 1/16th of an inch=0.0625, so it was off less than 1/16th of an inch for those of us using the English system. This is equal to about the thickness of a penny.
Being the thickness of a penny off center does not seem that huge on somthing that was made by human hands and not a robot.

Poff--How exactally did you notice this???
Not trying to start a war, but i do not think i would have noticed that offset without the use of a precise scale or a set of calipers.

So with all the info in this thread would you guys still buy a moots, or find another builder for a ti bike???


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## Bobonli

jcgill said:


> So with all the info in this thread would you guys still buy a moots, or find another builder for a ti bike???


I would call them and speak to them. When I bought my YBB, I called and spoke to one of their reps to confirm the information I was getting at the local dealer, mostly because I'd never dealt with the dealer before and I wanted reassurance.

Come to think of it, I also called them to refer me to their best/most active local dealer. I didn't want to deal with someone who sold one a year.

In this case, I'd call and say, "There's some rumblings that your quality is not what it was a few years ago. What can you do to reassure me that you're still making great bikes?"

I know that sounds weird but it's a good launching point to a discussion. I'd also ask for a referral to a recent local customer, to go look at something that rolled off the assembly line within the last year. I did the referral thing, if I recall correctly, when I bought my YBB. Never went to see the bike but corresponded by email.


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## Faapaa

This was a great dissapointment to me, always considered Moots as a no-nonsense brand with good rep. I'm not afraid that a frame once in a while comes with a manufacturing defect, the thing that scared me was that Moots wouldn't do anything in the first place. But, some might not think this as an issue, depends on what you expect from a high-end company.
I think that 1.5mm is a error, BB is 68 and DT is 35mm, this leaves 16.5mm off BB shell on each side of the DT, 1.5/16.5=1/11
If this is true, Moots lost a potential customer this time


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## Bobonli

Remember, you're reading one story by one customer about a bike you've never seen. As helpful as web forums can be, the investigation ( if you ate shopping for a bike, any bike) should not end here. 

Go check out the forums at a motorcycle site. Hundreds of horror stories about all the brands. Trannies failing, oil leaks, frame cracks. You name it. It didn't stop me from buying, it just helped me know what to ask and look for when I went to the dealer. 

The dealer is key, too. I'd like to think that rare defects in any vehicle are noticed during final prep before delivery. I've heard stories of a dealer sending serottas back because of wrong this or that. **** happens when building by hand. The fact the frame sells for $4k doesn't change that.


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## bon_gabs

On my vamoots the inside lower part of seatstay is rubbing on my chain if I used a 12-27 cassette gearing,no issues on 11-26 gears though,,is this a defect? I need your experience and opinion then I call moots after..thanks


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## tigoat

bon_gabs said:


> On my vamoots the inside lower part of seatstay is rubbing on my chain if I used a 12-27 cassette gearing,no issues on 11-26 gears though,,is this a defect? I need your experience and opinion then I call moots after..thanks


On my Moots, I have used 13-29(10 speed) and 12-29(11 speed) Campy cassettes with zero issues. It does not sound right in your case so I would definitely call to inquire about this issue.


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## bon_gabs

I informed Moots,,the'll check their Production department tomorrow,,i'll post the result..



bon_gabs said:


> On my vamoots the inside lower part of seatstay is rubbing on my chain if I used a 12-27 cassette gearing,no issues on 11-26 gears though,,is this a defect? I need your experience and opinion then I call moots after..thanks


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## sbsbiker

Poff, I too wonder how someone could notice an offset of 1.5mm? 

Faappa, you are a fool if you let this one forum post sway you off the Moots brand. Moots is probably better off without your money. even poff said he has no beef with Moots over this. I don't know any company in the industry that wouldn't scoff at a less than 1/16in "problem" on the first call, the fact that Moots rebuilt poff's frame should sell you on their customer service alone.


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## cincytri

*Moots Quality*

I have a 2009 Compact, 2010 Psychlo-X, 2011 Mooto-X YBB and a Psychlo-X RSL. I just did a cursory examination of the welds and I can't tell a difference. They all look great and have that "stack of dimes" appearance for which Moots is known.

I have no idea how someone can even tell that a tube is 1.5mm off, but I guess it can be done and Moots apparently took care of the customer. In my experience, the Moots crew has been outstanding. JonC certainly does more than his fair share in answering questions on the Moots forum.

Perhaps the only "issue" with Moots is keeping up with new parts. I bought my MX YBB with the understanding that the new Shimano XTR 2x10 crankset would work. Turns out pre-October 2010 frames would not work with that crank and I actually purchased an old stock frame. Working with Moots and the shop, I did a frame swap and all is good. As components change, it is hard to ensure that they work with older frames. Moots does, however, build their frames with new technology in mind so it would seem that the only real "problem" is trying to put the latest and greatest on an older frame. My suggestion is to just call the factory when in doubt. I have been very happy with all of my interactions with Moots.

I ride Moots bikes exclusively these days. My next ride will be a Moots- probably the MX Divide!!


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## Bobonli

You have quite an impressive stable cincytri. What brings you back to the brand versus trying something like IF, Seven or Serotta?


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## cincytri

*Moots loyalty*

@Bobonli-
I can't really give you a good answer to your question. I think that at the pointy end of custom and boutique frame builders, decisions often come down to factors that aren't very easy to describe or defend. I am sure that I would love to ride an IF or Serotta, but I am a Moots guy. They just speak to me differently. The guys at Firefly are doing some amazing work these days too.

A couple of things that I do like about Moots are options. They offer great fitting stock frames and you can often get them in the more common sizes without waiting very long. If custom is something you want, then really the sky is the limit in terms of what they will do. All you need is sufficient funds and the ability to wait for your new frame for 6-8 weeks...

They do a great job with tech updates and marketing too. I regularly check on their forum and twitter pages to see what is going on with their GrassMoots riders and members of their very loyal Moots Congregation. I appreciate that they are incorporating new technology into their frame designs while keeping the strength and durability that Moots is know for. The new MX Divide is a perfect example of combining fine craftsmanship and new technology. Very pricy, but I am done buying bikes and then dumping them a year or two later.

My philosophy is to buy the bike you want and ride it forever. Moots and ti make that happen for me...


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## poff

When people from my shop pulled the frame out of the box they immediately called me to inform that DT was misaligned. Once again, I have no problem with moots and they are building my second RSL now. I used to ride with 110lbs lady who broke her YBB at the HT. My blacksheep highlight broke at the chainstay (James replaced the whole rear triangle). Anything may happen and as long as the company is behind its products I am happy - I am very happy with moots, RSL rides like a dream and I own 5 of their bikes. Speaking of Carl Strong, long time ago before he was so famous he welded a disk brake tab to my ibis silk ti and that tab was completely misaligned and useless.


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## tigoat

poff said:


> When people from my shop pulled the frame out of the box they immediately called me to inform that DT was misaligned. Once again, I have no problem with moots and they are building my second RSL now. I used to ride with 110lbs lady who broke her YBB at the HT. My blacksheep highlight broke at the chainstay (James replaced the whole rear triangle). Anything may happen and as long as the company is behind its products I am happy - I am very happy with moots, RSL rides like a dream and I own 5 of their bikes. Speaking of Carl Strong, long time ago before he was so famous he welded a disk brake tab to my ibis silk ti and that tab was completely misaligned and useless.


poff: Appreciate your courage to bring this problem up in this thread. There might be many other problems from other consumers that were either settled behind the scene or unresolved that we will probbably never hear about. Bottom line is that no builder is perfect so we will just have to cross our fingers when we shell out some hard earned cash for an expensive frame. Thanks!


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## cincytri

*Whatevs...*

@tigoat-
I have to ask, what is your motivation here? Did one of the hot Moots welders (a nod to Amy) turn you down for a date? You seem intent on tarnishing a spectacular bike company and it would be helpful to understand the back story.
To say that Moots customers will have to "cross their fingers" and hope that their new frames are free of defects suggests facts that are simply not in evidence. I spend a fair amount of time following all things Moots, and other than poff, I have never heard of a production defect involving Moots. I have confidence that Moots quality is and always will be at the pointy end of excellence.
I think that JonC from Moots put it very well. Moots frames are made by human hands and, therefore, mistakes can happen. Moots does their absolute best to make sure that doesn't happen with their quality control methods and the talent of their builders. It is possible even with all of that in place for a frame to be flawed. Possible, not probable or likely or even anywhere close to a coin flip. My very limited experience with Moots customer service and their reputation suggests that if there is a problem, Moots takes care of it.
The overwhelming opinion from Moots riders is that their bikes are awesome and their customer service rules. Good enough for me...


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## sbsbiker

Tigoat, courage, really, on an anynomous forum. For all we know half of everything on these forums could be fiction.

It good to hear about these things but I have doubts about these other (claimed) unresolved problems that we didn't hear about. I may be drunk on Moots- ade, but I really thinks the factory does a great job producing some of the finest quality frames in the US, and maybe the world. But it is a hand built product and suspect to errors. Frankly with the quality control, and welding setups at Moots, I'm surprised that the frame was even welded up, or made it out the door.

But the true lesson from this is that Moots stood by their product's excellence, and when confronted with a problem, did the right thing and replaced the product.


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## tigoat

sbsbiker said:


> Tigoat, courage, really, on an anynomous forum. For all we know half of everything on these forums could be fiction.
> 
> It good to hear about these things but I have doubts about these other (claimed) unresolved problems that we didn't hear about. I may be drunk on Moots- ade, but I really thinks the factory does a great job producing some of the finest quality frames in the US, and maybe the world. But it is a hand built product and suspect to errors. Frankly with the quality control, and welding setups at Moots, I'm surprised that the frame was even welded up, or made it out the door.
> 
> But the true lesson from this is that Moots stood by their product's excellence, and when confronted with a problem, did the right thing and replaced the product.


Fair enough!


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## tigoat

cincytri said:


> @tigoat-
> I have to ask, what is your motivation here? Did one of the hot Moots welders (a nod to Amy) turn you down for a date? You seem intent on tarnishing a spectacular bike company and it would be helpful to understand the back story.
> To say that Moots customers will have to "cross their fingers" and hope that their new frames are free of defects suggests facts that are simply not in evidence. I spend a fair amount of time following all things Moots, and other than poff, I have never heard of a production defect involving Moots. I have confidence that Moots quality is and always will be at the pointy end of excellence.
> I think that JonC from Moots put it very well. Moots frames are made by human hands and, therefore, mistakes can happen. Moots does their absolute best to make sure that doesn't happen with their quality control methods and the talent of their builders. It is possible even with all of that in place for a frame to be flawed. Possible, not probable or likely or even anywhere close to a coin flip. My very limited experience with Moots customer service and their reputation suggests that if there is a problem, Moots takes care of it.
> The overwhelming opinion from Moots riders is that their bikes are awesome and their customer service rules. Good enough for me...


How cool would it be to have a date with Amy? Too bad she is taken...It is obvious that you are a Moots fanboy, so do I, as I have had two Moots (still have one) long before you bought yours. However, being a Moots fan does not mean I will jump to the conclusion on any reported problem one way or another. Enough said!


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## cincytri

*I'm a Moots Fanboy!!*

Tigoat-
I guess you could call me a Moots fanboy, but I wonder whether you consider that a compliment or an insult?
My enjoyment of Moots products does not make me blind. As I mentioned in another post, I think Moots could do a better job with a spreadsheet or compatabilty chart showing which models accept certain new parts. It can be very tough (for Moots too, I suspect) for riders to keep up with how new cranks and other parts work with both new and old frames. I'd like to think that I am capable of being a Moots fan and objective.
The tone of your posts indicate that you had already jumped to a conclusion that Moots wasn't the same or as good as it used to be. I'd argue the title of your post is suggestive in and of itself. My intent was to show that Moots is still a great option for those interested in blowing their hard earned coin on a great bike. Check out the 2012 NAHBS Best Cyclocross frame winner from Moots. The folks from Moots are still doing it right.


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## tigoat

cincytri said:


> Tigoat-
> I guess you could call me a Moots fanboy, but I wonder whether you consider that a compliment or an insult?
> My enjoyment of Moots products does not make me blind. As I mentioned in another post, I think Moots could do a better job with a spreadsheet or compatabilty chart showing which models accept certain new parts. It can be very tough (for Moots too, I suspect) for riders to keep up with how new cranks and other parts work with both new and old frames. I'd like to think that I am capable of being a Moots fan and objective.
> The tone of your posts indicate that you had already jumped to a conclusion that Moots wasn't the same or as good as it used to be. I'd argue the title of your post is suggestive in and of itself. My intent was to show that Moots is still a great option for those interested in blowing their hard earned coin on a great bike. Check out the 2012 NAHBS Best Cyclocross frame winner from Moots. The folks from Moots are still doing it right.


I really do not have anything else to add to whatever already stated. We can go at it until the cows come home...Just curious, are you a girl? And you are from Cincy?


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## cincytri

*Moots is for everyone!!*



tigoat said:


> I really do not have anything else to add to whatever already stated. We can go at it until the cows come home...Just curious, are you a girl? And you are from Cincy?


Tigoat, you'll find that Moots owners are a very loyal bunch. I'd say that is mark of a good company and a quality product which is what I thought your original post was asking about. I'd be happy to talk about Moots some more, but if the cows are home, then the cows are home.

I used to live in Cincinnati. If you are ever in the area, I can point you to some good rides on and off road. Let me know.

As for whether I am girl or not, I wonder why you ask? Are you curious about whether Moots is for women too? Check out the Moots site to see a few videos of Kelly B. racing her RSL 29er. I'd love to be as talented her.


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## cohiba7777

Bobonli said:


> Remember, you're reading one story by one customer about a bike you've never seen. As helpful as web forums can be, the investigation ( if you ate shopping for a bike, any bike) should not end here.
> 
> Go check out the forums at a motorcycle site. Hundreds of horror stories about all the brands. Trannies failing, oil leaks, frame cracks. You name it. It didn't stop me from buying, it just helped me know what to ask and look for when I went to the dealer.
> 
> The dealer is key, too. I'd like to think that rare defects in any vehicle are noticed during final prep before delivery. I've heard stories of a dealer sending serottas back because of wrong this or that. **** happens when building by hand. The fact the frame sells for $4k doesn't change that.


huge point - LBS has to do in incoming quality check and refuse it if it isn't right - they have much more pull than you ever will,


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## AndyMc2006

I have a Vamoots CR that I took delivery of in Nov 2011, I like it a lot but it doesnt seem to fit me quite right, that is a story in itself but I do often wonder if I would have been better off buying a Seven, IF or Carl Strong, they cost about the same, they are custom and use tubing that is best suited to the individual riders height and weight. When I start to think to long or hard about this I tell myself to shut up and ride the bike and if Im still having doubts in the fall I can always sell it and get one of the frames I mentioned above. Having said that the welds on my frame look awesome.


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