# 12-29 for 11 speed on it's way



## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/10/campagnolo-12-29-cassette-for-11-speed.html


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

merckxman said:


> http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/10/campagnolo-12-29-cassette-for-11-speed.html


I wish they'd come out with an 11 speed 11/27. I've made one up but I miss the 16 tooth--but not enough to change back. It is 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-27. I would prefer a 11-12-13-14-15-16-18-20-22-24-27.


----------



## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

i'd be happier with a cheaper athena alternative... like centaur and veloce were to chorus!! blah!


----------



## the_gormandizer (May 12, 2006)

Here's a noobie-type question from a Campy wannabe. Are there different cage lengths, and would the 12-29 require a longer cage? I am presuming 12-27 works fine with the std RD.


----------



## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

I actually think that this is great news. I don't need gears that low, but IF the new 12-27 is compatible with the compact gearset, then that puts the low gear ratio almost as low as a triple (30 front, 26 rear). Interesting!


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

the_gormandizer said:


> Here's a noobie-type question from a Campy wannabe. Are there different cage lengths, and would the 12-29 require a longer cage? I am presuming 12-27 works fine with the std RD.


I'm using the standard record 11 cage with my 11/27 and it works flawlessly.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

It should follow that medium cage length RDs will also be introduced with the 12-29 cassettes.


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

I agreed with Rocco comment medium cage would requires for 12/29 which is similar to the 13/29 set up.


----------



## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

This comment was left at that blog entry:
"Even better---the standard "short-cage" 11 speed rear derailleurs being shipped now will handle the 29 cog. Previous model 11-speed setups can be modified with a replacement part available from Campagnolo."


----------



## Corndog (Jan 18, 2006)

Yea, I bet the standard cages will work just fine. They worked fine with the 13-29 in teh 10 speed group, despite Campy saying you needed the medium.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

merckxman said:


> This comment was left at that blog entry:
> "Even better---the standard "short-cage" 11 speed rear derailleurs being shipped now will handle the 29 cog. Previous model 11-speed setups can be modified with a replacement part available from Campagnolo."



I hope it's true. I so that obviously will be a great convenience to have the option without a major change.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*not so...*



Corndog said:


> Yea, I bet the standard cages will work just fine. They worked fine with the 13-29 in teh 10 speed group, despite Campy saying you needed the medium.



The 13-29 only worked properly on some bike with the perfect chainstay length that adds 2T of wrap capacity.

To work on any bike, a medium cage RD would be required, unless you're confident that you will never shift to the 50/29.

Most users would not inadvertently shift to this combo, but the dummies will need a medium cage.

As for getting an 11-27 with a 16T, it will never happen. Campy has never made a a 16-18-20-22-24-27 and they never will.


----------



## mj3200 (Apr 18, 2008)

I can vouch that you cAn use the STD cage on a 53/39 13/29 with no problems and while I wouldn't recommend the 53~29 it dosnt break it or anything. We use that set up in Gran Canaria a couple of times a year.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

C-40 said:


> The 13-29 only worked properly on some bike with the perfect chainstay length that adds 2T of wrap capacity.
> 
> To work on any bike, a medium cage RD would be required, unless you're confident that you will never shift to the 50/29.
> 
> ...


Yes, but they've never made 11 speed before either! I continue to hold out hope. Still, my current 11/27 works really well in all but a couple of situations. I find it pretty strange that the shifting ramps would line up at the right places on these two cassettes to make this bastardized 11/27 unless they had given it some thought.

Believe me, I'm pretty darn happy with campy--just as it is.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*more..*

The cage length determines wrap capacity and that was not changed with the 11 speed RD. I can't imagine what part could be changed out other than both sides of the cage to convert a short cage to a medium. That could be done in the past, too. It was the long cage that was made a little different in thickness in some area. I don't believe that it could be changed to a medium or short cage. A short cage 11s RD has a 55mm cage length, while a medium 10 speed is much longer at 72mm.

A short cage will certainly work with the future 12-29 as long as you don't shift to the 50/29. On some bike that will may over extend the RD, but not break anything.

I'm using a medium Chorus 10 RD on my bike with a 12-27.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

C-40 said:


> As for getting an 11-27 with a 16T, it will never happen. Campy has never made a a 16-18-20-22-24-27 and they never will.


Well, I can understand Campy not making certain even-numbered cogs like 20t and 22t (dunno why, but somehow it's not just hip to do so). 

But, not _ever_ making a wide-range cassette than has both an 11 and the very-useful 16 seems pretty silly. 
Something like an 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27 would be pretty popular I'd think.

After all, isn't that part of the point of having 11-speed in the first place? To have your cake and eat it too?








.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*Campy philosophy...*



SystemShock said:


> Well, I can understand Campy not making certain even-numbered cogs like 20t and 22t (dunno why, but somehow it's not just hip to do so).
> 
> But, not _ever_ making a wide-range cassette than has both an 11 and the very-useful 16 seems pretty silly.
> Something like an 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27 would be pretty popular I'd think.
> ...


It may make sense to everyone, but whoever controls what Campy markets thinks differently. They made 10 speed drivetrains for 10 years and never offered the 21-24-27 that Shimano does.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

C-40 said:


> It may make sense to everyone, but whoever controls what Campy markets thinks differently. They made 10 speed drivetrains for 10 years and never offered the 21-24-27 that Shimano does.


No, but they do offer 23-26-29 on their 10-spd drivetrains. Really that different? 3-tooth jumps at the end of the cassette in either case. 

Anyhoo, in the next couple of years Shimano and/or SRAM will go 11-spd, and they probably won't have too much of a problem with offering customers what they want. 

So, it's up to Campy if they want to be logical here. Considering how popular wide-range cassettes have become, very much including WR cassettes with an 11, seems like a no-brainer... 

I do give 'em props for putting out a 12-29, though. That's a step in the right direction, but lot of the market seems convinced that they need an 11t cog, whether they truly do or not.
.


----------



## Metaluna (Aug 26, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> I do give 'em props for putting out a 12-29, though. That's a step in the right direction, but lot of the market seems convinced that they need an 11t cog, whether they truly do or not..


I'm glad they resisted this trend for the 12-29. I have an 11-28 on my SRAM bike and I'm not that crazy about the ratios. The 11t is almost useless for the kind of riding I do. I'm thinking about customizing it to a 12-28, though I still think I'll like the 13-29 on my Campy bike better.


----------



## sweeners (Jul 23, 2008)

*Confirmed by Campy*

A vague blog entry wasn't definite for me - I need that 29T sprocket!! I contacted contacted Campy to confirm and got the reply:

"I think is already in production: check availability contact the nearest Campagnolo Pro-Shop to you. here the link: http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/proshop/index.jsp"

See http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/it/2010_OEM_MANUAL_ADDENDUM_08-09.pdf

The cogs are 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29. Nice smooth progression. Can't wait.


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Tech support confirm you are able to use the current RD for 12/29 and product will be available in the next 30 days through LBS or online disty. At this time Campy will not sell the individual cogs that mean you have to purchase a new cassette instead replacing the last three cogs.


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2009)

zamboni said:


> Tech support confirm you are able to use the current RD for 12/29 and product will be available in the next 30 days through LBS or online disty. At this time Campy will not sell the individual cogs that mean you have to purchase a new cassette instead replacing the last three cogs.



Not shown in stock of course but they list the cogs as being for sale here looks like $75 for steel:

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=33285


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

$253 for the Ti version is way too much to upgrade plan to keep current config 12/27 for now.


----------



## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

The 12-29 cassettes will be available starting from November 2009 for the Super Record and Record, and from February 2010 for the Chorus (http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/11/its-official-campagnolo-new-11-speed-12.html). No word on Athena though.


----------



## volubilis (Jan 2, 2009)

merckxman said:


> The 12-29 cassettes will be available starting from November 2009 for the Super Record and Record, and from February 2010 for the Chorus (http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/11/its-official-campagnolo-new-11-speed-12.html). No word on Athena though.


Yup. Here's the official word from Campy -

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/newsdetail/newsid_116_newscatid_3.jsp


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

C-40 said:


> The 13-29 only worked properly on some bike with the perfect chainstay length that adds 2T of wrap capacity.
> 
> To work on any bike, a medium cage RD would be required, unless you're confident that you will never shift to the 50/29.
> 
> ...


C-40,
Do you know the configuration of this new cassette? I'm assuming it's 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29?


----------



## kingennio (Jul 3, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> C-40,
> Do you know the configuration of this new cassette? I'm assuming it's 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29?


that's correct


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2009)

I've read through the campy press release:

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/newsdetail/newsid_116_newscatid_3.jsp

which says: 



> This means that you won't have to purchase a new 11-speed rear derailleur but just fit the 12-29, take off with your bike and challenge the big climbs.


And this release was similarly regurgitated on VN for one. Looking at the spare parts lists for 2010 and 2009 http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/doc/doccatid_3.jsp

It shows part 5-RD-SR-004 as being the part that makes one of the older 11 speed rear mechs 12-29 compatible. Based on what I see there that's the only difference between the old ones and new ones, though it isn't necessarily clear that the cages are the same. But nothing says they are different either. Shops already show this part in stock, usually for around $20, so I wonder how necessary this part is to use the 12-29, my guess is the answer is "it depends", but only a guess.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

It's not clear whether the issue is wrap capacity or just the need to swing the upper pulley lower to clear the 29T cog. Someone will have to measure the c-c spacing on the 2010 pulley bolts to see if the cage got any longer.

I really expected Campy to offer only one cage length right from the start, but someone overlooked that issue. I can't imagine that no one thought about handling a 29T cog since they've offered one for a long time.

Swapping that one part won't be too tough, if that's all it takes. If you need that whole cage assembly, it won't be cheap.

Some frames have up to 2T of additional wrap due to the chainstay length being perfect. Owners of those frames would probably not need more cage length.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

C-40 said:


> Some frames have up to 2T of additional wrap due to the chainstay length being perfect. Owners of those frames would probably not need more cage length.


What is the 'perfect chainstay length'?  
.


----------



## Guest (Dec 3, 2009)

If it's just that part then I think that's pretty acceptable hopefully that's the most it will take for anyone wanting to use it. And I think I would get a 12-29, there are a few places around here that I could see me going often enough when it warms up to make good use of it.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*



SystemShock said:


> What is the 'perfect chainstay length'?
> .



If you put the numbers into an accurate chain length calculator and get an answer that is very close to a length that's any exact inch, like 53,54,55, then you have a perfect chainstay length. Since four teeth adds 1 inch of chain length, you can't have the perfect length with both a 50 and 53T big ring.

As an example, a 407mm chainstay with a 50T ring and 29T cog is almost perfect, at 53 inches. 

If you have a 53T ring, the magic numbers to go with a 29T are 398 or 410.

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/chain_length/chainlengthcalc.html


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

C40,

Another word it would only work with compact ring 50/34 for 12/29 as Campy suggested ?


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*???*



zamboni said:


> C40,
> 
> Another word it would only work with compact ring 50/34 for 12/29 as Campy suggested ?


I don't understand what you're asking.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2009)

I think the way the press release from Campy was written it may have led the poster to think the 12-29 would only work with compact cranks. They don't mention standard cranks in the release even though they're compatible, instead emphasizing that the compact with the 12/29 compares well with the range of a triple.

At least that's my interpretation of the post, I could be way off.


----------



## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

Sorry to jump in late, but I have a question. I use a 13-29 10 speed with a medium cage RD on my winter bike (custom steel bike), and a 12-27 11speed on my main bike (Specialized Tarmac SL2). I'd like to change the steel bike to 11s with a 12-29, and also be able to throw on a 12-29 on the Tarmac for alpine tours.

I run a 10s Record 50-34 with a 10s Record CT FD on the Tarmac. I tried a 11s FD on this bike and could not get it to work properly. The 10s FD/crank shifts perfectly.

My plan is to get part 5-RD-SR-004 that Campy says I need to upgrade my "early generation" 11s FD to 12-29 capability, and to use my existing medium cage 10s RD with a 12-29 on the steel bike. I see that all 10s and 11s pulleys are 8.4mm wide. For the 10s bike, I would install 11s shifters, cassette, and chain, and use the 10s front and rear derailleurs.

Does anyone have experience using a 10s RD with 11s? Are there any compatibility issues with what I am proposing?

Thanks for the help before I spend the money!


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

I believed C40 is the only one be able to use 10spd RD ( mod version ) to work with 11spd.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

There are some people who are using a 10 speed RD with an 11 speed drivetrain, including me, but I make a little modfication that should make it work better. There is a small difference in the actuation ratio that should make the RD travel come up a little short.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=160601

I'd try the 12-29 cassette with your current 11 speed RD and see if it works before installing the new part. I'm curious if the upper pulley can clear the 29T cog without changing that part.


----------



## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

C-40

Thanks for the help and the link. You didn't mention as to whether the fact that my 10s RD is a medium cage would make any difference with the 11s 12-29. It sounds like it wouldn't, since the issue is the actuation ratio.

Also, I'm curious as to why I had trouble with the 11s FD on my 10s crankset. I know the 11s rings are supposed to be .5mm closer, and the 11s cage is quite a bit narrower than the 10s. 

I couldn't get the 11s setup without a lot of rubbing, and not just on the two smallest and largest cogs. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

You need a medium cage 10 speed RD for a 12-29, in most cases, but it depends on the exact chainstay length.

As for the FD, I've got no clue, but there really should be no problem. The cage is narrower, but that shuld just require a trim click maybe 1 cog sooner. There is only one trim click from the big ring. The second click of the thumb button should drop the chain onto the little ring. The big/big combo should never be used.

I've done some more accurate measuring and found that although the big ring mounting surface is machined about .6mm thinner on the 11 speed cranks, the spacing between the little ring and big ring teeth is changed little, if any. The change may just have enabled a movement of more material to the ramp area, between the rings.


----------



## rosss (May 14, 2009)

I've been running campy 11-29 (10 speed) on my cross bike for a few months now
took 2 cassettes13-29/ 11-23 and mated them. no problem shifting at all


----------



## Roadrider22 (May 24, 2006)

Here is a quote from the folks at Competitive Cyclist that I thought does a nice job of summerizing the issue:

"The folks at Campy have managed to make all of the 11-speed groups work with a single derailleur design that covers all crankset and cassette combinations, including the new 12-29 ratio. If your derailleur has a sticker on top that says “From 11/23 to 12/29 Compatible” then you’re fine. That derailleur will definitely work with any possible Campy 11 speed combination. If your derailleur doesn’t have that sticker then things get a little more complicated. If the distance from the center of the axle to the center of the derailleur hanger hole on your frame dropout is 28mm or greater then the older, unmodified derailleur will work. If that distance is less than 28mm then you’ll need to buy a $6 upgrade kit to modify your derailleur."


----------



## volubilis (Jan 2, 2009)

see

http://www.scribd.com/doc/22213322/Campy-Instruct

v.


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

volubilis said:


> see
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/22213322/Campy-Instruct
> 
> v.


Thanks for sharing this. Given the interest in 12-29, it would be great if Campagnolo or somebody has a list of which model/year(s) are compatible and which are not. I guess that 2011 models will all be compatible, but earlier 2010 models will not be?


----------



## DNM (Feb 27, 2008)

*Url?*

Do you have the URL for this quote? Did they say what the part was that made up the Upgrade Kit?


----------



## dhfreak (Sep 12, 2009)

All I know is that 12-29 will be a welcomed addition come the 6-Gap Century this year!


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*???*



orange_julius said:


> Thanks for sharing this. Given the interest in 12-29, it would be great if Campagnolo or somebody has a list of which model/year(s) are compatible and which are not. I guess that 2011 models will all be compatible, but earlier 2010 models will not be?



This has already been posted. 11 speed has only been out for just over a year. 2009 model RDs are not guaranteed to be useable with a 12-29, but they might work if the RD hanger on your frame is low enough. If not, the conversion parts will be available to alter 2009 RDs.

All 2010 11 speed RDs should be 12-29 compatible. 

10 speed drivetrains still require a medium cage RD to be guaranteed 13-29 compatible (there is no 12-29).

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/Spares10-A-010909.pdf


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

C-40 said:


> This has already been posted. 11 speed has only been out for just over a year. 2009 model RDs are not guaranteed to be useable with a 12-29, but they might work if the RD hanger on your frame is low enough. If not, the conversion parts will be available to alter 2009 RDs.
> 
> All 2010 11 speed RDs should be 12-29 compatible.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the summary. 

As the title implies, I was interested in 11-sp compatibility.


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*works*



Corndog said:


> Yea, I bet the standard cages will work just fine. They worked fine with the 13-29 in teh 10 speed group, despite Campy saying you needed the medium.


I've been using an 11-29 (customized myself) with a short cage Record 10 sp rear derailleur for years. Works perfectly fine. Just have to avoid big/big, so this is not idiotproof, and Campy would never approve, I'm sure.


----------



## Michael Papanicolaou (Dec 28, 2009)

*11 speed campy modification part for new 12-29*



merckxman said:


> This comment was left at that blog entry:
> "Even better---the standard "short-cage" 11 speed rear derailleurs being shipped now will handle the 29 cog. Previous model 11-speed setups can be modified with a replacement part available from Campagnolo."



Does anybody have info on obtaining this part to make the old derailleur fit the new 12-29 cassette? I also saw this mentioned before:
Roadrider22 
RoadBikeReview Member

user gallery 

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 140 Here is a quote from the folks at Competitive Cyclist that I thought does a nice job of summerizing the issue:

"The folks at Campy have managed to make all of the 11-speed groups work with a single derailleur design that covers all crankset and cassette combinations, including the new 12-29 ratio. If your derailleur has a sticker on top that says “From 11/23 to 12/29 Compatible” then you’re fine. That derailleur will definitely work with any possible Campy 11 speed combination. If your derailleur doesn’t have that sticker then things get a little more complicated. If the distance from the center of the axle to the center of the derailleur hanger hole on your frame dropout is 28mm or greater then the older, unmodified derailleur will work. If that distance is less than 28mm then you’ll need to buy a $6 upgrade kit to modify your derailleur." 

Can anyone locate a url for the part?? Thank you.


----------



## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

Its shown in stock here, you can see the part and number in the diagrams linked above:

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=31603&category=532


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Kytyree,

Which is the correct P/N #?

Thanks


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

Looks like 5-RD-SR-004


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

For $28 bucks is not that bad to convert.

Thanks


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Installation instruction from Campy on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NPNfy-fiWE


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Ordered the cassette cog for 23/26/29 and expect to be here by next week.


----------



## DNM (Feb 27, 2008)

*For Future Reference*



zamboni said:


> Ordered the cassette cog for 23/26/29 and expect to be here by next week.


Part Number, from where ordered, and for how much $?

Thanks


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

I ordered it through my LBS with this P/N # 11S-369T, cost was $220.


----------



## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Just pick this up from the shop.


----------

