# Can't get in my "pain cave"



## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

No, seriously.
This was spurred on by my 2nd CX race of the season yesterday- oh, I rode hard, or so I thought, but was 3/4 down on the field. Afterwards, I was winded and tired- but absolutely nothing like those who really "put it all out there". They were racked, laying on the ground, hacking up lungs, completely turned inside out.
I finished well behind all of these racers.
If I could figure out how to really put it all out there, I would feel much better about my performance...

I'm almost 50, fairly new to cycling as I just picked it back up 4 yrs ago, been racing for just over 2 years. I've never been an athlete of any sort, let alone endurance-related.
Long story short, I've spent the last 49 years of my life _avoiding pain_ -how can I learn to embrace/ignore the pain and suffering necessary to race bicycles?

People have told me "just ignore the pain" or "push harder", etc... but I don't make any conscious effort to puss out- but apparently I back off, riding at a hard tempo rather than all-out race effort. How can I train my brain/body to really go deep?
Thanks for any advice..


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

Good question. We all want to learn how to push harder and really find our limit and then go farther.

I would start by riding with some really good riders and learn how to suffer by keeping up with them. Especially if they are there to verbally push you too. Eventually you will find that you like the feeling you get from pushing hard.

At the end of the day you gotta want it. Find the competitive part of you and feed it.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

locustfist said:


> Good question. We all want to learn how to push harder and really find our limit and then go farther.
> 
> I would start by riding with some really good riders and learn how to suffer by keeping up with them. Especially if they are there to verbally push you too. Eventually you will find that you like the feeling you get from pushing hard.
> 
> At the end of the day you gotta want it. Find the competitive part of you and feed it.


Hmm- seems like good advice!
I especially like the idea of "verbally pushing" me- I was joking w/ my wife that I need a coach/colleague riding alongside screaming at me as I do intervals...


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## geefactor (Nov 13, 2010)

RRRoubaix said:


> No, seriously.
> 
> People have told me "just ignore the pain" or "push harder", etc... but I don't make any conscious effort to puss out- but apparently I back off, riding at a hard tempo rather than all-out race effort. How can I train my brain/body to really go deep?
> Thanks for any advice..


I'm younger but also only recently have gotten into physical activity. I find that for me it takes quite the active effort to push on, rather than I make the effort to give up. It's one of the things I try to learn from my interval training -- things like how awful i should feel halfway through the race and still know i can push on.


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

A good chunk of it is learning to focus and concentrate for the whole 30-60 minutes. Mainly on riding the course as fast as you can. Which is often much easier if you are chasing someone within sight, or constantly battling with a group of racers. Otherwise you just have to go as hard as you can go and trust your fitness. There is no shame in popping and fading the last lap or so. It just means you were a little too aggressive, but you gave it everything you had. In the end it will help you learn the effort you can put out and still make the time required for the race.

I often struggle with intervals when I do them solo. I have a group I meet sometimes to do them with. We do them together, but you have to focus specifically on avoiding the draft. (it helps that we do them on a non busy 4 lane road. Though I find I can get more effort out when I know someone is chasing me or I am chasing someone. Reguardless, I figure I am putting in the work. Even if I may not be hitting the exact output level I have down on paper for that session.


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

RRRoubaix said:


> No, seriously.
> This was spurred on by my 2nd CX race of the season yesterday- oh, I rode hard, or so I thought, but was 3/4 down on the field. Afterwards, I was winded and tired- but absolutely nothing like those who really "put it all out there". They were racked, laying on the ground, hacking up lungs, completely turned inside out.
> I finished well behind all of these racers.
> If I could figure out how to really put it all out there, I would feel much better about my performance...
> ...


Your body is going to do what it's going to do. What you need is a head readjustment.

1) Forget about pain, pain cave, whatever. What you need to concentrate on is effort.

2) Cross is all about managing your effort. Only take a break when it's not going to cost you. Hood River on Saturday the downhill off the parking lot was a good place to take a break. If you got caught behind someone slow though the pinch prior to the sand, that was a good spot. Coming off the rise right after the start/finish was another. Otherwise, try to pedal faster.

3) If it's hard for you, it's hard for everyone. Don't start thinking that cross is easy for anyone. It's not. Some people will go faster than others but it's still effing hard.

4) Smash the transitions. Every time you slow down -- like through the corners, remounting, up a rise, hit the pedals hard 5 times each side out of the saddle. Count them out in your head. Then sit down and get a rhythm.

5) Race the riders around you. If someone passes you, stay on that wheel. If you see someone up ahead, try to chase him down. Use your peers as motivation.

6) Don't worry about metering out your effort. I hear that people worry about going out too hard and the blowing up. Yeah, it might happen. But you aren't going to know how to manage it until you try a few times. And chances are others are going to be in the same boat.

7) If you are wondering whether you are going hard enough, you aren't. Work harder.

8) Don't *****foot around when passing. Get it done ASAP. That's less time you are going slow behind that dude.

9) Don't think that everyone else is faster, fitter, better than you. They aren't. You are better than some, worse than others. What you need to concentrate on is being the best you that there is.

Out of all of these, the one that you should focus on is #4. Get back up to speed fast. Suppose you do that and save 1 second per transition. That's maybe 20 or 30 seconds a lap. I suggest going out to a park and formulating a little course. Make it about 4 minutes long with an ample helping of transitions -- enough to keep you on your toes, not so many that it will run you ragged. Then practice jumping out of them and riding a moderate tempo otherwise. Do like 10 minutes on, 5 off x 2 or 3.


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## Rhymenocerus (Jul 17, 2010)

RRRoubaix said:


> No, seriously.
> This was spurred on by my 2nd CX race of the season yesterday- oh, I rode hard, or so I thought, but was 3/4 down on the field. Afterwards, I was winded and tired- but absolutely nothing like those who really "put it all out there". They were racked, laying on the ground, hacking up lungs, completely turned inside out.
> I finished well behind all of these racers.
> If I could figure out how to really put it all out there, I would feel much better about my performance...
> ...


You arent going to race in the pain cave if you dont train in it. Intervals = temporary pain with rest, Race = pain till its over.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

The OP hasn't been at this very long... I do think there is a training aspect to developing your ability to inflict and tolerate suffering on yourself. Intervals on the trainer are a good way to safely see how far your body can go. 

Riders joke about "seeing spots" or tunnel vision or similar... except, they are not joking. That's how hard it's possible to go. And it takes practice to understand it, to force it on yourself, to tolerate it.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

here's a timely article on the mental topic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/health/nutrition/20best.html?src=recg


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

Creakyknees said:


> here's a timely article on the mental topic:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/health/nutrition/20best.html?src=recg


Interesting article. Also worth a listen is the first half of the Radiolab episode about limits:

Limits of the Body - Radiolab

I'm not sure if RRR raced Saturday or Sunday, but I was out a Hood River on Saturday and had an interesting experience regarding psychology.

I've been out of racing for a few years because of my health but I'm back this year. A racing buddy of mine got into cross at the same time I did and we progressed at roughly the same pace. He's moved over into single speed since I've been out of racing and this year I am also racing SS. So going into the season I figured that if I were able to hang with him, then I'd feel pretty good about things.

He was racing on Saturday and started behind me. Early in the third lap, he caught me and passed. He slowed and I passed him back. Then a while later he passed me. I spent the next three laps sitting in the vicinity of his rear wheel. Sometimes he would put a rider between us but I would eventually get back on his wheel. I tried to take him on the last lap but I failed.

In retrospect, I think that I psyched myself out. I had already made a bargain with myself that being as fast as him was good enough and that's exactly what I achieved. I'm pretty sure that I could have raced faster had he not been right in front of me.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

RRRoubaix said:


> Long story short, I've spent the last 49 years of my life _avoiding pain_ -how can I learn to embrace/ignore the pain and suffering necessary to race bicycles?


I don't think there's a whole lot you can "learn" to become better at dealing with the pain. You can try all sorts of tricks, such as repeating a certain phrase or trying to think about something else, but what I think it all comes down to is how badly you want it, and realizing that no matter how much you're suffering you can always push a little harder/longer. 

If there are thousands (or hundreds, depending on your level) of other cyclists who are just as good if not slightly better than you... one of the main things that will set you apart is how much you're willing to suffer. And to be at the top, sometimes it requires literally a borderline psychotic obsession.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Gripped said:


> Interesting article. Also worth a listen is the first half of the Radiolab episode about limits:
> 
> Limits of the Body - Radiolab
> 
> ...


Cool story, thanks Gripped.
Yes, I was there on Saturday as well. (Loved that race, btw- hope to do it again next year)
A lot of great advice here- thank you everyone. I agree that it's important to train at the limits if one intends to race at the limits -and I have *not* done that this year (work has gone to hell, stress and other factors have shot my training plan down).
I did a hard training ride tonight w/ some friends from Camas B&S (I'm on PV). It was perfect- I have done some rides w/ the guys from Upper Echelon, but they are WAY faster than I am- the Camas guys were merely "faster" than I, not ridonkulously faster.
I was close enough that I was willing to expend my reserves to keep up, rather than when I get dropped like a sack of dirt- then I just give up. (And that ain't cool!)


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## hrumpole (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm neither fast nor a racer, but at one time was an OK athlete. The most important thing is DO NOT QUIT. You have to build up to it gradually. Every sport has its own kind of pain. You just have to get used to it. When you finish, you want to be spent, right? For example, last winter I started doing the Sufferfest videos. The first time I did the hunted (5min, int 20min int, then sprints), I had nothing at the end and didn't really push. Why? Because the 20 min effort cooked me. After a couple of weeks, I could recover and push it to the end. The first time I really nailed that workout all the way through, I thought I was going to die and my wife came in to see if I was OK. I'm still here.

In turn, those 20 min intervals on the trainer helped make the 20 min intervals outside seem short. It's OK to be afraid of that pain--it's unfamiliar. By pushing yourself in little, gradual bits, you'll learn what it looks like in there. 20 minute pain is different, for example, from 1 minute pain.

(And if you're successfully finishing cross races, you're way ahead of this middle-aged fat guy). So kudos.


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## Cbookman (Jul 2, 2009)

You have to get past the point of where your mind tells you to stop doing this, it hurts, and keep going until you almost can't see anything, can't breath, and can't turn the pedals over anymore, then pull back just a tad. 

Intervals are a way to introduce pain to yourself, and you need to go as hard as you can (snot dripping down your face, drooling, mumbling nothings to yourself, etc) for the on period and soft pedal during the off. If you know your max heart rate, try and get to that point at the end of every interval.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Most intervals shouldn't put you into the pain cave. The pain cave only really comes in really hard races. It really boils down to one thing that will let you go into the pain cave:

You have to want it.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

iliveonnitro said:


> Most intervals shouldn't put you into the pain cave.


IMO if you're not in quite a bit of pain towards the end of an interval then it wasn't an interval


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2011)

> Riders joke about "seeing spots" or tunnel vision or similar... except, they are not joking. That's how hard it's possible to go. And it takes practice to understand it, to force it on yourself, to tolerate it.


I'm new to road cycling for sport in the last few months. I used to be a competitive runner I have experience pushing myself to the point of collapasing at the ends of races, and seeing spots/tunnel vision, blacking out and not remembering several laps out of a race, etc. 

I've found myself having a hard time pushing myself to nearly the same levels of effort on the bike as I can do and have done running. I think most of it has to do with the fact I'm afraid If I push myself to the point of collapse I will get splattered by a car or fly off a cliff. I feel like I want to ride with *something* in reserve (be it mental concentration or strength) all the time to be able to make an emergency maneuver on the road. Neither of those scenarios can happen on a running track -- I'm not afraid for my life If I decide push myself to ride at the borderline of total muscle failure.

How have other cyclists who have experience racing deal with the conundrum of how to push yourself to your limits yet still survive in traffic?


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Cableguy said:


> IMO if you're not in quite a bit of pain towards the end of an interval then it wasn't an interval


Painful is very different from pain cave. Most good intervals are painful, or even extremely painful.

Pain cave is often quickly followed by dizziness, slightly blacking out/tunnel vision, stars, and a cold sensation coming over your body...and/or puke. I've only been able to do it a handful of times.

One of the most memorable experiences was going up a 7% grade at ~20mph for a few minutes, reaching the top, and seeing a several riders pulled over and puking at the side of the road (2009 collegiate nationals in Ft. Collins).


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Yeah, I think one of the best ways to reach severe levels of suffering is to do really hard hill climbs. If you can find a few 18 to 20% climbs in your area that are about a mile long, those work best. Then just push up those climbs as hard as you can. I know I'm pushing hard enough when my thoughts start moving towards "I think I'm going to get off my bike and walk" during a hard climb. For me, when I start getting those thoughts because it hurts so much, I know I'm usually close to my max heartrate.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

I find the fitter I am and the better I am going, the less it hurts. It all just seems to flow.
Suffering I have found is when I am not on form.


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