# Training to stay with the group



## tschramm (May 13, 2007)

I have recently tried group rides. Saturday mornings we go for 3 hours, and there is one 5 minute refuel break at the halfway point QuickieMart. The average speed for the total ride is about 32.5-34kph, but the pace it is usually about 35-36kph on the flats with no wind. There are a several times during the ride when the speed is wound up even higher for fun. This can be for only a few hundred meters or for several kilometers depending upon the strength of the people at the front. Otherwise, everyone takes turns, and the group is generally 6-10 people.
My challenge comes after the second hour. Usually once or twice when the speed is ramped up for more than a couple of minutes by some of the stronger guys I find I can not sustain the pace, even tucked into the group. I catch up at the next intersection when they slow down for the slow-pokes (me).
My typical training week is 1 hour solo on Wednesdays at 80-85% max HR. A 3 hour group ride on Saturday at 83% HR max for the last few rides. (This replaces a 2.5-3 hour solo ride), A 2 hour solo ride on Sunday at about 70-75% HR max. At 40 with my work/life balance and recovery ability being what it currently is, I don't think I could put much more than and additional hour in on a semi-regular basis. 

What recommendations would you make to my schedule to help me not get dropped in the late ride accelerations on Saturday?
Sorry this post is so long.
Thanks


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Ride harder on Wednesdays. Do some 4 minute intervals as hard as you can go Sundays. 

Stop pulling so much on Saturday's ride. 

'After the second hour': Make sure you are eating properly.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

tschramm said:


> I have recently tried group rides. Saturday mornings we go for 3 hours, and there is one 5 minute refuel break at the halfway point QuickieMart. The average speed for the total ride is about 32.5-34kph, but the pace it is usually about 35-36kph on the flats with no wind. There are a several times during the ride when the speed is wound up even higher for fun. This can be for only a few hundred meters or for several kilometers depending upon the strength of the people at the front. Otherwise, everyone takes turns, and the group is generally 6-10 people.
> My challenge comes after the second hour. Usually once or twice when the speed is ramped up for more than a couple of minutes by some of the stronger guys I find I can not sustain the pace, even tucked into the group. I catch up at the next intersection when they slow down for the slow-pokes (me).
> My typical training week is 1 hour solo on Wednesdays at 80-85% max HR. A 3 hour group ride on Saturday at 83% HR max for the last few rides. (This replaces a 2.5-3 hour solo ride), A 2 hour solo ride on Sunday at about 70-75% HR max. At 40 with my work/life balance and recovery ability being what it currently is, I don't think I could put much more than and additional hour in on a semi-regular basis.
> 
> ...



One of the things about group riding or even racing... is the pace is not constant, it is sometimes very fast and sometimes very slow... So you need to be able to go to your max and over it at times then recover and be ready to go again.... most people train at one speed and don't push the HR up to max... which after several efforts of this will send some off the back because the body is not used to it... 

What works for me to train for this are 15 seconds on/15 seconds off... You can do this on a trainer or road... just simply go hard(meaning jump out of the saddle and sprint or sit and spin as fast as you can) for 15 seconds and then coast for 15 seconds and repeat...... I usually do for this for 10 minutes at a time (a set), recover 10 minutes and then do maybe 3 or 4 sets total... 

Good luck.. group riding is fun but does takes some getting used to being close to other riders, rotating, finding good wheels, knowing the wind direction, etc... but the fun is the higher speeds and riding with others! And don't worry about getting dropped.. it happens to everyone!


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## tschramm (May 13, 2007)

*Thanks for the input*

I think I am eating and drinking enough during the ride. The legs know that they have worked hard when I am done, but I don't bonk. I know all about bonking also!

I will try to increase the intensity on my Wednesday ride, and include some intervals. One person suggested short 15 second intervals and another longer 4 minute intervals. Should I mix it up on different Wednesdays, or within the same workout?
For my weakness, when performing the intervals would it be better to do them at a really high rpm or with a harder gear at at lower (not low) rpm?

Sunday the legs are still pretty weak, thus the lower 70-75% avg heart rate. I don't know if they are ready for a second high intensity day in a row. Perhaps that is the point?:idea: Beat them again to make them grow?


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

tschramm said:


> I think I am eating and drinking enough during the ride. The legs know that they have worked hard when I am done, but I don't bonk. I know all about bonking also!
> 
> I will try to increase the intensity on my Wednesday ride, and include some intervals. One person suggested short 15 second intervals and another longer 4 minute intervals. Should I mix it up on different Wednesdays, or within the same workout?
> For my weakness, when performing the intervals would it be better to do them at a really high rpm or with a harder gear at at lower (not low) rpm?
> ...


I am not a coach, but for me the 15 second intervals are only good for developing a jump. I don't find that they help with much else. I need longer 2-4 minute intervals to be able to maintain a high pace in a race/group ride situation.

What you are doing on Sunday is also what I do - a longer aerobic ride. I think that is pretty standard. The idea is to beat your legs, but not destroy them.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

tschramm said:


> I have recently tried group rides. Saturday mornings we go for 3 hours, and there is one 5 minute refuel break at the halfway point QuickieMart. The average speed for the total ride is about 32.5-34kph, but the pace it is usually about 35-36kph on the flats with no wind. There are a several times during the ride when the speed is wound up even higher for fun. This can be for only a few hundred meters or for several kilometers depending upon the strength of the people at the front. Otherwise, everyone takes turns, and the group is generally 6-10 people.
> My challenge comes after the second hour. Usually once or twice when the speed is ramped up for more than a couple of minutes by some of the stronger guys I find I can not sustain the pace, even tucked into the group. I catch up at the next intersection when they slow down for the slow-pokes (me).
> My typical training week is 1 hour solo on Wednesdays at 80-85% max HR. A 3 hour group ride on Saturday at 83% HR max for the last few rides. (This replaces a 2.5-3 hour solo ride), A 2 hour solo ride on Sunday at about 70-75% HR max. At 40 with my work/life balance and recovery ability being what it currently is, I don't think I could put much more than and additional hour in on a semi-regular basis.
> 
> ...


you can break training down into all sorts of little parts, and some folks find it very helpful to do so.
the bottom line, as I have come to believe, is that there really are only two things you have to know (I just said this on the Racing . . . . board; forgive me for repeating).

In order to go faster, you have to go faster, and
You are what you train to be.

For you, what you need to train is what you are unable to do. You need to jump with the group and sustain those several minutes of pain.

so, practice jumping, and, like Von says, practice those several minutes of pain.

You can do those several minutes of pain in two ways, both of them have value, and you probably should practice both, because they will help in different ways.

Practice them with full recovery in between. You will go faster for those several minutes of pain, enabling you eventually to go faster for those several minutes of pain (you getting the idea, here?).

And, practice them with little recovery in between. You probably won't go as fast, but you will train your body to repeat the effort (picking up a pattern, here?), as you have to with attacks and counter-attacks.

As for rest, you tend to need it. Trained athletes probably need less rest than many of the books say, but people usually muck that up by not really resting.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

I find that blocks of training work well for me (several hard days, several easy days in a row), especially if I mix it up, week by week, with more spread out workouts. Again, you will train your body for different things, both of which you need -- one is the ability to go hard when you're sort of tired. the other is to up that top end by being a little bit fresher for the harder workouts.

I ain't no spring chicken, and I don't spend as many hours on the bike as lots of people do, but, for example, I did hills on Tues and speed on Wed and Thurs, hour long each day with a couple of Cat 2's, a 1, and a bunch of 3's. By Thurs, it came down to me and a couple of 2's chasing a 1. My legs are tired today, but I feel good.

I try either to ride hard or very, very not hard.


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## Giantcyclist (Jan 22, 2004)

*House Of Pain*



bill said:


> I find that blocks of training work well for me (several hard days, several easy days in a row), especially if I mix it up, week by week, with more spread out workouts. Again, you will train your body for different things, both of which you need -- one is the ability to go hard when you're sort of tired. the other is to up that top end by being a little bit fresher for the harder workouts.
> 
> I ain't no spring chicken, and I don't spend as many hours on the bike as lots of people do, but, for example, I did hills on Tues and speed on Wed and Thurs, hour long each day with a couple of Cat 2's, a 1, and a bunch of 3's. By Thurs, it came down to me and a couple of 2's chasing a 1. My legs are tired today, but I feel good.
> 
> I try either to ride hard or very, very not hard.



I totally agree with Bill! You have to train hard to be able to go hard! You must also rest hard.

With your limited time on Wednesday, I recommend that you use Wednesday to do 5X6 minutes intervals at 90-105% of your threshold power (or heart rate if you don't have power). Once you're use to this, reduce it to 4X8 minutes; 3X11 minutes; 2X15 minutes; and eventually 1X30minutes at threshold. If you can do 30 minutes at threshold, move up to 2X30 minutes and so on. IMO, these intervals will build your power at threshold, and your VO2 max power. 2x 30 minutes at threshold is extremely painful but if you can do it, you should be able to hang on to the group if not put a few of the group in the house of pain.

Just my 2 Lincolns, Good Luck.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

vonteity said:


> I am not a coach, but for me the 15 second intervals are only good for developing a jump.


I'm not a coach or anything either, just an old used to be a racer no-body....but the 15 second intervals I was talking about were 15 seconds on/off, (not really meant for working on jumps, that would be 15 to 60 seconds all out effort with complete recovery in between) 

The on/offs sets (which can be done in 30 seconds increments as well) have worked well for me getting my 'old' system used to the constant changing of speeds in the groups/packs... especially in the early season, after several minutes of going all out every 15 seconds the hr starts to get up there. I still ride in the fast weekend race/group rides and this helps during the week as well as mixed in with other days of longer efforts, like many have described...


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## Sub (Feb 13, 2004)

your problem is more than likely the fact you don't have enough power, and it sounds like there is quite a bit of difference between you and the stronger riders in the group. That isn't a gap you can expect to close quickly by doing a few intervals. 

Cycling is all about sacrifice, if it's that important to you to stick with those guys then buy yourself a trainer and instead of sitting in front of the tube in the evening...sit on your bike in front of the tube and pedal for an hour or two a couple days a week.

You can't expect to hang with guys that may be training 3x as much as you and more than likely younger than you.

There may be other issues here which most people fail to look at. How are you riding in the group? I'll give one bit of advice...don't take any pulls until you are not getting dropped. Are you good at utilizing the draft? Are you one of those guys that is to scared to get up on someones wheel and sit 5 feet behind them eating the wind? 

How long are the pulls these riders typicaly take? If they are rotating quickly and taking short pulls then the odds are your not as far off from their fitness as it may seem. If they are taking long pulls (30 seconds + for example) and your unable to hold a wheel..you have some work to do.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Sub said:


> Are you one of those guys that is to scared to get up on someones wheel and sit 5 *inches* behind them eating the wind?


Fixed. You should never be 5ft behind someone's "draft." inches!


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## Sub (Feb 13, 2004)

iliveonnitro said:


> Fixed. You should never be 5ft behind someone's "draft." inches!



Huh? I recommend you understand what someone says before trying to correct them....or did you just feel like repeating what I already said?

Don't edit a quote either.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

what we have here is a failure to communicate.

the original quote could be read to mean the opposite of what was intended.

it's a syntax thing.


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Ride Smarter*



Sub said:


> There may be other issues here which most people fail to look at. How are you riding in the group? I'll give one bit of advice...don't take any pulls until you are not getting dropped. Are you good at utilizing the draft? Are you one of those guys that is to scared to get up on someones wheel and sit 5 feet behind them eating the wind?


In addition to the training Sub identified another issue that may be the cause of you getting dropped. We have a former racer in our club who is older now and probably a B- rider who can still hang with the A group by riding very smart.

*Never take a pull*, let the guys know that once your fitness catches up to theirs you will be more than happy to do your share. Most groups will actually appreciate not having to wait for you to catch up rather than counting how many pedal strokes you pull. If you find yourself at the front for some reason count a 100 pedal strokes (about 1 minute) and then pull off.

*Skip the break*, simply keep rolling along at a slow pace. Eat and drink on the bike and wait for the group to roll up behind you. This way you can knock out a couple of miles at a slow pace.

*Eat and drink* properly on the ride and do it early. Also eat a good breakfast.

*Ride in the middle of the pack* rather than sitting on the back. The advice that applies to weak hill climbers is to always be at the front at the base of the hill so you can slide back through the pack when the climbers pass you but still maintain contact with the pack. Same thing works with pace lines that have accelerations. If you are in the middle you can react quicker to the accelerations avoiding the tail end of the slinky. If things take off too quickly you are simply moved to the back of the pack rather than getting shelled. You will need to talk to the group a bit and be careful as this can mess up the smooth, fluid movement of the paceline if you are gapping the back half of the pack frequently. Should be OK if this is a training ride, but if Saturday morning is these guys World Championship and they never race they may not like it.

*Relax* when riding in the pack so all your energy is saved for your legs. Don't get tense, loose grip on the bars, no stiff arms... Someone mentioned getting a trainer. You might consider rollers if you need to improve your handling skills and become a smoother rider.

*Draft properly* staying tucked in tightly enough to truly benefit from the draft. Also be sure you echelon as appropriate depending on where the wind is from. Watch for flags and tree tops for clues and adjust whenever the road makes a turn. Pick two or three wheels to regularly follow. These should be very smooth riders who are also big enough to truly block some wind for you.

*Communicate* with the group. Tell them the problem you are having and ask them for hints. They probably best know your riding abilities as well as the dynamics of the group. Many of them were probably in your same position at one time.

*Train* using some of the other advice here.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

I echo that it is never a shameful thing to miss a pull, unless you are missing pulls all day and then come from nowhere with fresh legs for the sprint. That ticks people off. Much, much better to be honest with yourself about your limitations and manage your energy to make the ride the best it can be for everyone. By going to the front and blowing up, you haven't helped anyone.

The only thing with which I would quibble is the implication that 40 is too old to be really really fast. It is not. 50 is not too old to be really really fast. Maybe 35 is getting a little long in the tooth to be a Grand Stage racer, but there are lots of guys in their 40's for sure and some into their 50's who ride at a very, very highly competetive amateur level. There are even a few over 40 professionals. I know several 50+ Cat 1's and 2's who will rip the legs off guys half their age, with little left but bloody stumps to tell the tale. Don't limit yourself. Maybe you won't attain the level you might have if you had started at 20 or 25, but the difference is not that significant. The second fastest amateur field in local races behind the 1/2/3 or 1/2 race typically is not the Cat 3 race or even the 30+ race but the 40+ race.


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## tschramm (May 13, 2007)

*update in training*

Thanks for all the great advice!
I have now had the opportunity to ride with the group a couple more times.

Since the start I have made by abilities known to the group so there is no friction there.

I have been taking less pulls at the front, and generally do them for less time than the others. I like taking pulls, even if they are fewer and shorter in duration. I think that it will help me improve faster than just sitting in the pack.

I have the drafting thing down pretty well. It makes a huge difference. Since the group is pretty small, it doesn't get strung out too bad, but on days it is larger I do like to stay in the middle. There is less of a rubber band effect.

Relaxing isn't an issue either. I am comfortable on the bike and don't tense up.

I think I have the eating and drinking down adequately, I will continue to monitor this.

I will look at continuing to ride while the others are taking a break. That may be an idea.

The age thing was only to identify where I was chronologically, it was not intended to be a full-on excuse for lack of performance.

Again the problem I have is during the last hour of a 3 hour ride when the speed gets really ramped up for several minutes I find I just don't have enough in the tank. I have noticed that lately some of the others are not holding on either. Don't get me wrong. I am probably the weakest link out there most of the time, but now I think the variance between myself and some of the others is getting smaller.

I have now increased the intensity of my Wednesday ride and have added some VO2max level intervals to it. Between that and the group ride on Saturday I have been getting stronger and faster.

In an earlier post I asked a question about pedal cadence and if I should train with a harder gear at a lower cadence. Would that improve power? I hear Phil and Paul on Versus talk all the time about higher vs lower cadence when climbing mountains.

thanks again for all the advice!


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## keppler (May 25, 2007)

I've read this thread with interest as I've had similar issues to face with club and small group rides. 

I seem to have the biggest problem when we're tackling some of the steeper/longer climbs; if my legs don't get toasted my lungs and breathing do. I spent a good deal of my weeknight rides this summer tackling those same routes and hills, and I've even lost more weight (from 200 down to 186), but everytime I hit the hills I get zapped. I've done long pulls at the front and can hammer for longer distances (more than I used to be able to do), but the hills are killing me..:mad2: .


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Sub said:


> Huh? I recommend you understand what someone says before trying to correct them....or did you just feel like repeating what I already said?
> 
> Don't edit a quote either.


#1) Chill.

#2)


Sub said:


> Are you one of those guys that is to scared to get up on someones wheel and sit 5 feet behind them eating the wind?


This does not make sense in the syntax with which it was used. "or do you sit 5 feet..." would make sense.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Anyways, back to the subject.



tschramm said:


> In an earlier post I asked a question about pedal cadence and if I should train with a harder gear at a lower cadence. Would that improve power? I hear Phil and Paul on Versus talk all the time about higher vs lower cadence when climbing mountains.
> 
> thanks again for all the advice!


Power is just force * cadence, so increasing the force on the pedals at the same cadence (up the gear, keep the cadence) or increasing your cadence (in the same gear) increases your power. You can do both, but that's usually reserved for sprints.

Oddly enough, force and cadence are not usually extreme limiters in one's ability to produce power. Muscular endurance is the limiting factor in cycling. Don't get me wrong, it would help to increase both, but not as much as increasing the engine behind it.

Unfortunately, most people's "training" isn't efficient. The easy rides are too hard and the hard rides are too easy -- making a near perfect bell curve for "mediocre" training. If you have a HR monitor (as I'm assuming you don't have a power meter), your 20min intervals should be at ~85-90% of your MHR, or up to 105% of your LTHR. 3-8min intervals should be closer to 93% of your MHR/>105% of your LTHR. Your long endurance rides should be more than 3hrs long and under 75% of your MHR (ish). When was the last time you can say that you've done all 6-8 VO2max (<=8min) intervals at a true 93%MHR, or a 2x20min intervals at 88%MHR?

As a bi-product, you'll most likely increase your force and cadence during these intervals.

Good luck. It takes 10-14 days for adaptations to occur, so report back to us in a few weeks.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Its good to see that the training is paying off. You mention that sometimes late in your rides the pace picks up for a few minutes and you can't hang on. I'm an older rider too, 55, and ride with a lot of younger riders as well. We have the same sort of thing on most of our regular rides and, typically, its the same riders who will crank up the pace at about the same time each ride. If that's your case, be positioned in your group so you aren't the one right on the wheel of these strong riders when the speed picks up and stay tight in the draft letting others keep the gaps down, just don't get caught at the back when this happens for all the reasons noted. Unless these other riders are really strong, they won't keep up the leg breaking pace til the end of your ride, you can have some recovery time in the pack, and be there at the end. If you get dropped at this point...... you won't be alone and you can ride in with the others and talk about how strong the break was that day.


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