# 2014 Felt AR2 vs 2014 Cervelo S3



## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

I'm about to buy a new bike for 2014. Both look great. 

Felt AR2 is built with Ultegra Di2 and is said to be overall the most aero frame out there. Only S5 is more aero at 0 degrees only. New type of seat pillar and is said to be more comfortable than all other aero bikes. Some nice 40mm wheels come with it. 7.4kg weight. 

Cervelo S3 is a cross between S5 (front end) and R3 (back end) for a stiffer but more comfortable ride than the S5 but not quite as aero (4W difference). But comes in about $1000 cheaper for much the same build, but has crappier wheels. Weight is about the same. Slightly higher stack which may suit me so with it I may get away with 1/2 to 1cm less spacers. May need 3cm all up.

What's your thoughts on both models. Which would you choose and why. I ride a combination of Road (mainly with undulating courses), non technical Crits.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Go out and ride them both, and make your choice.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Sounds like they're a wash price wise cuz of the wheels. I like the look of the Felt better. In this catagory I'd look at the Giant Propel also.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

Lelandjt said:


> Sounds like they're a wash price wise cuz of the wheels. I like the look of the Felt better. In this catagory I'd look at the Giant Propel also.


Yeah, I had a good look at the propel. Not as aero as the Felt and due to my short arms and the Giants shorter stack and longer reach, I couldn't get my set up 100% correct without changing stems. Still my 3rd option though.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Bridgey said:


> Yeah, I had a good look at the propel. Not as aero as the Felt and due to my short arms and the Giants shorter stack and longer reach, I couldn't get my set up 100% correct without changing stems. Still my 3rd option though.


Having to change out a stem for fit shouldn't rule out any bike. 
And, how do you come to the conclusion one is more aero that the others?
Does it really matter that much?


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

tihsepa said:


> Having to change out a stem for fit shouldn't rule out any bike.
> And, how do you come to the conclusion one is more aero that the others?
> Does it really matter that much?


Because when you are paying $6500 why would you go for less than a perfect fit or something that is less aero than another, but identical in all other aspects. The propel came with integrated handlebars that were aero in design. This was part of their wind tunnel tests. To change this, would mean that the bike is even less aero again. Might as well save money and buy a chinese aero frame knockoff. 

As for the Felt being more aero, I agree more testing needs to be done, but based on prelim tests, it appears to be setting a new standard in aero bikes. I think it matters, even if on a psychological level.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Bridgey said:


> Because when you are paying $6500 why would you go for less than a perfect fit ...l.


Two somewhat different things. You don't chose among $6500 bikes because one comes stock with the correct length stem for your fit. You expect that whomever you're buying it from will swap out stems and perhaps other components to set it up for your fit. Or, you might buy it with the knowledge and expectation that you will be doing it yourself after the fact, which is something to weigh in the purchasing decision.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Bridgey said:


> Might as well save money and buy a chinese aero frame knockoff.


Sounds like a good option to me, provided you can build a bike. 
As looigi mentioned, it is expected that a dealer set the bike up for you, you aught to get you choice of crank lengths, stem, spacers, and bars that fit you for the bike.

IE
Giant Contact SLR Aero Integrated Handlebar & Stem (Handlebars / Stems) - Bike Gear | Giant Bicycles | UK / Ireland
Sizes: 31.8mm x 40, 42 or 44cm with 90, 100 or 120mm length options


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## Todd_H (Nov 20, 2009)

Both are great bikes. I actually just test road both bikes back to back, and a few others as well. Of the bikes I've ridden the past few weeks I like the Felt the best. I'm a racer and the Felt just jumps... Hands down it feels fastest, stiffest, etc. The Cervelo is second on my list (Super Six, NP Alize) just because of the comfort factor as it seems to glide over everything. The spec wheels that Cervelo provides aren't very good, yeah I'll be replacing then with race wheels but still...

I'm still deciding. Good luck.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

Todd_H said:


> Both are great bikes. I actually just test road both bikes back to back, and a few others as well. Of the bikes I've ridden the past few weeks I like the Felt the best. I'm a racer and the Felt just jumps... Hands down it feels fastest, stiffest, etc. The Cervelo is second on my list (Super Six, NP Alize) just because of the comfort factor as it seems to glide over everything. The spec wheels that Cervelo provides aren't very good, yeah I'll be replacing then with race wheels but still...
> 
> I'm still deciding. Good luck.


Thanks for that. I was leaning towards the Felt and your well described experience has pretty much sealed the deal. I just need to make sure I can get a proper fit, which shouldn't be a problem based on what I've read re: it's geometry.


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## michaelwoodardcpa (Nov 8, 2004)

I rode the Felt AR, Cervelo S5, and new Giant Propel Advanced SL back-to-back over the same course Interbike Outdoor Demo this year. They were all great bikes. My personal ranking (without considering cost) was: 

1) Giant Propel Advanced SL - I was faster on this bike on the same course with the same perceived level of effort. I 'felt' faster on this bike and it was not the least bit 'sluggish' when it came time to climb back up toward the Demo site. I couldn't believe how this bike felt....fast, agile, incredible, not 'thick' on climbs like my Ridley Noah. I tried to work out the money on this bike, but it is just too much for me. I didn't get to ride a Propel Advanced (more affordable), but I'm not stoked on the color choices.

2) Felt AR4 - Okay sure it is $1,000's less than the Propel Advanced SL, but it too was impressive. I wasn't quiet as fast on the same route. A slight amount of 'wooden' feel to the BB area, and a better climber than I expected (over this short course). Not quiet the athletic, agile feel of the Giant, it felt a little heavier (I never weighed either). But I considered this bike as well as the AR2 (AR2 color was decent), it had a good spec, and I could remove the seatpost when shipping. 

3) Cervelo S5 - Rock solid BB area, but much less stiff torsionally...you could feel the HT area on the 58 I rode 'flexing'. Maybe a better ride quality vertically than the Felt AR, but the Giant was the best overall. I had bike lust over the Giant.

The new S3 is stiffer than the S5 in the BB and in the HT (sorely needed in my opinion), and it is 1000's less. Add the super slim seat stays and the ride quality is likely nicer as well. I'm not digging the red/carbon color schema though. If it was black, or even the new S2 color, I'd probably get it. You may like it. 

I rode the BMC Team Machine, Giant TCR Advanced SL, Giant Defy Advanced SL, Cervelo R5, and Felt Z series back-to-back as well, though I started with the aero-road bikes. Conclusion 1: The differences between the boutique brands and the big brands is very narrow. Conclusion 2: Aero road bikes have come a long way, and I think I could be happy having just an aero road bike (not aero road and light climber). I'm not Froome, Schlek, Pantini, Mancebo, a few extra ounces off my 'climbing' bike is nothing I couldn't lose if I had a bowel movement before the ride. 

Get light-aero wheels. The Giant and Felt come with decent wheels, the Cervelo wheels are well, not as good. I couldn't believe the difference in my bike when I went to ENVE SMART 3.4's.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

Thanks for the detailed reply. I am Giant Propel is one awesome looking bike. I would have bought it but couldn't get a proper fit on it. The stack wasn't quite high enough and the reach was a little too long. Like you I loved the colour scheme. I still love the Felt AR2, but in the end I had to choose between looks (the Felt) and Fit (the Cervelo). So I had to go the Cervelo despite not liking the colour (but it is growing on me). 
In saying that, the Felt was close to a good fit. Just a little too long in the reach for my short arms. Would have had to go with a 90mm up turned stem. 

You got me rethinking which way I'll go again thought


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

A 90mm upturned stem isn't such a bad thing. I like the handling of 90mm stems and the look of an angled up stem wouldn't bother you after the first ride. And you'd have the option of bringing the bar down over time if you can gradually adjust to the more aero position. My current bike has a 100mm 0° stem that given the HT angle slopes up at about 17°.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

I just saw the S3 in a local shop and it has a red and black paint job that is different than what is shown at launch. I'll try to go back and snap a picture. It is a better look. 

I'm on a Tarmac S3 project black but I'm a crit guy and the idea that I could have my cake and eat it too with a bike like the S3 has me in detailed negotiations with my wife. I've got some nerve issues in my hand and the rock hard ride of aero bikes in the past has ruled them out. 

I rode a Giant Propel Advanced SL a couple months ago and I didn't like it. I can't get past the brakes for one thing. To say they lack feel - its like comparing beautiful natural breasts to enhanced ones that are the same size. The brakes work fine but something is missing. The frame also lacked charm and nuance in ride quality. It was real, real fast and fun to pedal but no way I could live with that as my only bike and I can't afford to run dual hi zoot road bikes right now. Not harsh but like standing around in the cold, just not comfortable. 

Can't wait to test the S3 and sounds like I better stop by a shop that sells Felt too.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I just saw the S3 in a local shop and it has a red and black paint job that is different than what is shown at launch. I'll try to go back and snap a picture. It is a better look.
> 
> I rode a Giant Propel Advanced SL a couple months ago and I didn't like it. I can't get past the brakes for one thing. To say they lack feel - its like comparing beautiful natural breasts to enhanced ones that are the same size. The brakes work fine but something is missing. The frame also lacked charm and nuance in ride quality.
> Can't wait to test the S3 and sounds like I better stop by a shop that sells Felt too.


Yes for sure, if you can get a snap shot that will be great. You sure it was the 2014 S3? That was one thing that turned me off the Giant also. Didn't like the style of brakes. Bit spongey, harder to center, etc. 
I think like you said, the Felts are definately worth checking out, but I don't think I trust their aero data when compared to Cervelo. Cervelo tests with a maniquinn and a water bottle. Felt didn't. 
Anyway looking forward to the photo.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

For these test rides, I suspect the bicycle tire makes the biggest difference. Frame compliance is what should differentiate the bikes, but that may get swamped by the difference in how one type of tire feels compared to another.


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## izza (Jul 25, 2012)

Furthermore, the conditions of the tests need to be standardised. 

Felt/Spesh aero down tubes are wing shaped. Tested on their own they would be better than the truncated wing shape of a Propel down tube. 

Now if you add a bottle the reverse is apparently true. 

So who do you believe?


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

izza said:


> Furthermore, the conditions of the tests need to be standardised.
> 
> Felt/Spesh aero down tubes are wing shaped. Tested on their own they would be better than the truncated wing shape of a Propel down tube.
> 
> ...


Cervelo S3 or S5. They tested with a waterbottle and a manniquinn. Or we wait for a reliable independent test. Any coming that you know?


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Ok well it looks pretty much the same. :idea: Sorry I was wrong. 

Anyway I rode the bike around for ten minutes, and it was exactly what I wanted. I ordered one. I'll write it up soon. Suffice to say I wanted an aero Tarmac and I got one.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> View attachment 290847
> 
> 
> Ok well it looks pretty much the same. :idea: Sorry I was wrong.
> ...


Sweet looking ride. Write a bit of a review after you've had it a week or so. Perhaps do your own aero test (i.e. roll down a hill on 2 different bikes in the same position, until you stop on the other side and measure which one goes the furthest). Thanks for the picture. Love it. Can't wait for mine. Doesn't come to Mid Feb :-(


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

*A bit more about my impressions of the S3*

I rode the bike around on roads that allowed me to check it for climbing on a moderate hill, jamming over a big chainring hill, cornering it fast off that slight downhill, and sprinting in the big ring up the other side. My current bike is a Tarmac SL3 Project Black. That's like an S-Works SL3 but with 10r carbon fiber at the bottom bracket and head tube.

I don't have a ton to say - it's a great bike. It is much stiffer at the bottom bracket than my Tarmac. When I got the bike going fast, I was used to that pushback that comes from the wind at a high speed and it just didn't happen. The bike, a 54 instead of a 56 that I currently ride, heels over in a turn quicker. The front end feels well planted. All of this was pretty much to be expected.

The thing that impressed me was that the bike felt nimble. I'm used to aero bikes feeling like tt bikes, kinda lumbering, and the dreaded "lack of vertical compliance" was really, really minimal. I'm not going to say it is as vertically compliant as a Tarmac, but for me vertical compliance is like being pregnant. There's a point where a bike has enough vertical compliance, and for me this bike does. I want this bike for spirited jamming on mildly undulating terrain and for crits, and I think it's the best bike out there for that. 

I think it's compliant enough to be my only bike.

The other thing that impressed me was that the aerodynamics of it helped going up a long moderate hill. I'm about 200 pounds, a peak power sprinter type guy and so I try to carry speed into a hill. I lose that speed a lot more gradually on this frameset. 

So it's a big improvement over my bike and it wasn't difficult to put my good money down.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I don't have a ton to say -


LOL, that was awesome. You should do reviews for a living. My weight and style of riding, racing, etc sounds similar to you. So I could relate to all you were saying. I can't get mine til Feb here in Australia. Can't wait!! Notice anything else don't be afraid to continue your awesome review.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Unbelievably I'm getting the bike tomorrow. They're doing a parts swap, which was super nice of them because they had to strip a built bike. I've known two guys who work there for 17 years, so that counts for something.


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## Superdave3T (May 11, 2009)

Bridgey said:


> Sweet looking ride. Write a bit of a review after you've had it a week or so. Perhaps do your own aero test (i.e. roll down a hill on 2 different bikes in the same position, until you stop on the other side and measure which one goes the furthest). Thanks for the picture. Love it. Can't wait for mine. Doesn't come to Mid Feb :-(



Congrats on the new ride.

-SD


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

I've had the bike for two weeks now. Riding has been limited due to snow and single digit F temps. Here is a before new bars picture. Bike looks the business with deep rims.








To add to what I wrote earlier. I tested the bike riding down a shallow downhill of about a mile that ends with a sharp big ring uphill that has a sweeping corner in it. You can big ring it. That kind of thing is my forte. My head exploded when I got to the top, the bike was so controllable sprinting all out with that corner, so stiff, and so fast. It's exactly what I got the bike to do, and it's amazing. 

The bike wants for vertical compliance on big hits, but so what. You're gonna come off the saddle for those anyway. I had some buzz on one crappy washboard mini crack piece of paved bike trail, just one sort of harmonic reveals a weakness. But the bike has ridiculously few trade offs. It's a fun, special bike and I think it's a steal. I can't wait for the snow to melt so I can rack up big miles. 

Annoyingly Cervelo doesn't make a carbon saddle rail compatible setup, so I'm using the stock saddle for now instead of my saddle. 

In that moment at the top of that hill after having it for eight days it went from being "the new bike" to _mybike_.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

Awesome update. Mine doesn't come for a couple of weeks to a month. Can't wait though. Almost there!!!


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

As a current Cervelo owner, I'd say go with the Felt. They have made a huge jump in this model.


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## Ahillock (Apr 16, 2011)

I am in a similar situation as I am deciding between the new S3 and new AR2. Anyone have extensive time on both that can talk about comfort of the two frames? Neither dealer has the two bikes in my size so I need to wait for a test ride. But I doubt a 4-5 mile ride will give me a full understand of what it will feel like to be riding the bike for 50-70 miles plus.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

I did a 56 mile ride with 3000 feet of climbing on the S3 bike over the weekend. I've been riding nearly 200 miles a week on it. The Garmin riders are using it as their main bike in grand tours. It's a comfortable bike. The fact that it is aero is really amazing, stiff, and comfortable to boot. I didn't test a Felt so I can't provide comparative analysis. I can tell you that the S3 is fantastic.


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## Ahillock (Apr 16, 2011)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I did a 56 mile ride with 3000 feet of climbing on the S3 bike over the weekend. I've been riding nearly 200 miles a week on it. The Garmin riders are using it as their main bike in grand tours. It's a comfortable bike. The fact that it is aero is really amazing, stiff, and comfortable to boot. I didn't test a Felt so I can't provide comparative analysis. I can tell you that the S3 is fantastic.


Sounds comfortable from your experience. What other road bikes have you owned/ridden that you could compare the comfort to?


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## notclinteastwood (Aug 1, 2013)

I ride an AR5. The frame is fast. Fast up, down, straight, flat, cornering. Fast full stop. Looks good too. Cannot fault it. The Cervelo does't have the direct mount brake under the BB- anyone can tell that that's more aero and therefore better!
People have passed comment like "is that a converted TT bike?" and "that looks more aero than my TT bike"- it really does look (and feel) that quick.
Not sure about the Cervelo S3 but I think only the S5 comes close to competing with the new AR frame.


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## Ahillock (Apr 16, 2011)

notclinteastwood said:


> I ride an AR5. The frame is fast. Fast up, down, straight, flat, cornering. Fast full stop. Looks good too. Cannot fault it. The Cervelo does't have the direct mount brake under the BB- anyone can tell that that's more aero and therefore better!
> People have passed comment like "is that a converted TT bike?" and "that looks more aero than my TT bike"- it really does look (and feel) that quick.
> Not sure about the Cervelo S3 but I think only the S5 comes close to competing with the new AR frame.


The S5 and S3 were designed with water bottles to be used as well as designed with a mannequin (DaveZ) on board. The Felt AR was not. I still like the Felt, but I think the guys at Cervelo are still a step ahead. I assume you ride and use water bottles? I also assume you sit on your bike and pedal?


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Ahillock said:


> Sounds comfortable from your experience. What other road bikes have you owned/ridden that you could compare the comfort to?


I test rode a Giant Propel advanced SL. I found it to be uncomfortable and to lack good road feel, but to be fair they couldn't cut the seat mast for me, so it wasn't a perfectly fair test ride. The brakes were a deal breaker for me anyway.

I had a Tarmac SL 3 pro (project black) for 2 years. Very maneuverable bike that is quite comfortable. I basically think the Cervelo S3 is an aero Tarmac. It is a little more rigid in places (front), a little more compliant in others (rear).

I had a Calfee Dragonfly for ten years and the Cervelo is probably on par with that for comfort, though the front end of the Calfee was a bit more plush, but less stiff.


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## Ahillock (Apr 16, 2011)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I test rode a Giant Propel advanced SL. I found it to be uncomfortable and to lack good road feel, but to be fair they couldn't cut the seat mast for me, so it wasn't a perfectly fair test ride. The brakes were a deal breaker for me anyway.
> 
> I had a Tarmac SL 3 pro (project black) for 2 years. Very maneuverable bike that is quite comfortable. I basically think the Cervelo S3 is an aero Tarmac. It is a little more rigid in places (front), a little more compliant in others (rear).
> 
> I had a Calfee Dragonfly for ten years and the Cervelo is probably on par with that for comfort, though the front end of the Calfee was a bit more plush, but less stiff.


Thanks RCM. Do you ride over any bad roads (chip seal, gravel, potholes...etc.) to see how it handles that or mostly nicely paved roads?


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Ahillock said:


> Thanks RCM. Do you ride over any bad roads (chip seal, gravel, potholes...etc.) to see how it handles that or mostly nicely paved roads?


Sure, it rides fine on rough roads, relatively speaking. I mean, the bike doesn't have elastomers or anything. I doesn't do great on washboard surfaces, it rattles on them. Other than that totally fine. Soaks up bigger bumps real well. I wouldn't ride a bike like this on gravel because I wouldn't want it to get chipped up, but it would probably ride fine. Just really busted up pavement seems to create a bad harmonic due to the stiffness of the frame. But that's a strength when you want to go fast.


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