# More Mechanical Doping, UCI not doing enough



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Mechanical doping used in Strade Bianche and Coppi e Bartali, claims investigation | Cyclingnews.com



> ...managed to spot seven different motors being used at Strade Bianche and the Coppi e Bartali races. Five were hidden in the seat tube, with two hidden in the rear hub and cassette. Some were the large seat tube motors that are freely available on the market, while others were more technologilly advanced and were more difficult to identify because they produced a smaller heat spot. The report says that experts confirmed that the only way to create heat like that identified is via a motor.












Walking a tablet around in the pits may or may not be doing anything to catch this in road racing, but you know what works? FLIR. If you ask me, the camera motos should be carrying FLIR cameras, especially on climbs.

This story is almost too much, geesh.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Yea...pull apart those bikes and show me FLIR caught a seat tube motor. Seriously. How do we know those are not Di2 or EPS batteries? Or simply something as mundane as metal bolts/ballast added to the bike to get bikes to meet UCI min weight?

And the wheel-based doping-pull one apart, because I seriously doubt they're anything other than myth at this point. How do we know hub hot spots aren't the result of rough bearings in Powertap hubs? Or how about disc-brake rotors heat conducting the hubs way up in temperature?



I'll jump on board once they show FLIR having actually caught anything. Until then, the whole thing strike me as a giant hunt for Bigfoot. High on using tech and "science", high on clickbait, but low on any results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RexQLrcqwc


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

"experts"


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm thinking battery as well.. easy to test. Do the something with a "clean bike" and then one with a di2 battery and see


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

spdntrxi said:


> I'm thinking battery as well.. easy to test. Do the something with a "clean bike" and then one with a di2 battery and see


Easy enough to setup...problem being FLIR cameras are not cheap. Talking several thousands of USD. The FLIR brand ones while expensive are not high optical resolution either, because IR light is a ton harder to focus. The FLIRs are quite sensitive to fractions of a degree C.

It is a clever way to find these things, potentially....as soon as they actually show that it works.


I got to play with one a while ago with my housecat as the subject...This is a typical photodump from a FLIR, no extra compression or downsizing.


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## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

You can't take seriously any shouting headline from the Italian press. Especially the sports section. How else do they sell newspapers there?
This is the place that imprisoned a scientist because he couldn't precisely predict an earthquake!

But really a FLIR can't even find a friggin' ghost that everyone else can just see, so what are they good for anyway?
I hired a home inspector who had a FLIR thermal imager (a bonus gift for buying some tools), and it didn't find any of the drafts he did.
BTW, you can buy a FLIR on sale today at Canadian Tire, for only $350.
Flir Imaging Infrared Thermometer | Canadian Tire


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

.je said:


> You can't take seriously any shouting headline from the Italian press. Especially the sports section. How else do they sell newspapers there?
> This is the place that imprisoned a scientist because he couldn't precisely predict an earthquake!
> 
> But really a FLIR can't even find a friggin' ghost that everyone else can just see, so what are they good for anyway?
> ...


...A, your link doesn't work.

...B, if you're seeing ghosts and your FLIR camera doesn't detect it, the problem is not the FLIR instrument.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)




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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)




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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


>


Have significant discrepancies been detected between W/kg deduced from climbing times and the "official" output of riders? 

Or even better: have significant discrepancies been detected between the W/kg output of two different riders climbing with the same speed?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

HFroller said:


> Have significant discrepancies been detected between W/kg deduced from climbing times and the "official" output of riders?
> 
> Or even better: have significant discrepancies been detected between the W/kg output of two different riders climbing with the same speed?


What would you consider significant?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

HFroller said:


> Have significant discrepancies been detected between W/kg deduced from climbing times and the "official" output of riders?
> 
> Or even better: have significant discrepancies been detected between the W/kg output of two different riders climbing with the same speed?


Like, say, Froome and ten Dam at the TdF last year?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

How would a battery throw off a heat signature like that unless it's shorting? Looks like the seat tube is about the same temperature as the cyclist's legs, that seems unlikely if it was only a battery?


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

I would agree with drsmile that a Di2 battery is not discharging fast enough to heat up significantly, but I also believe all possible heat sources must be explored before we assume these are all hidden motors.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

DrSmile said:


> How would a battery throw off a heat signature like that unless it's shorting? Looks like the seat tube is about the same temperature as the cyclist's legs, that seems unlikely if it was only a battery?


I wouldn't think so, but the frame itself has aerodynamic cooling. Anything inside the frame would not, and can only sink heat by conducting it to the frame.

I'm also skeptical because in the IR imagery they trotted out a VERY faint shadow on the rear forks/gear cluster and claimed it was proof of a wheel motor....which is just silly. For as much as Italian media have claimed $50,000USD/each rear wheels with motors exist, no one has ever seen one. seat-tube motors you can actually buy at least.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

DrSmile said:


> How would a battery throw off a heat signature like that unless it's shorting? Looks like the seat tube is about the same temperature as the cyclist's legs, that seems unlikely if it was only a battery?


Finally SOMEONE states the truth. Its definitely NOT a battery. A battery is not getting hot at all unless its being discharged terribly fast. The rider would have to be shifting I would dare to say once a second or so for it to build up any heat at all.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Well actually after watching the video it seems that was just them trying it out on a bike with a known motor. So the actual thing was likely not as obvious.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

DrSmile said:


> Well actually after watching the video it seems that was just them trying it out on a bike with a known motor. So the actual thing was likely not as obvious.


Exactly. The issue of heat dissipation is surely a known one, and I'd guess (not being a mechanical engineer, alas) is that some strategically placed heat pipes (copper tubing filled with heat-conductive fluid) would enable the motor's heat to be dissipated along most of the seat tube and perhaps some of the down tube as well, making for much less of an IR "hot spot" on a FLIR capture.

Also -- who the heck would install a 250W motor? No pro needs one that strong. Just a small, maybe 25-50W motor that could yield a few second advantage (and additional recovery) up major climbs would likely be enough.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> How would a battery throw off a heat signature like that unless it's shorting? Looks like the seat tube is about the same temperature as the cyclist's legs, that seems unlikely if it was only a battery?


Plus, you have to figure that there's more than 7 riders using Di2.


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

If this had anything to do with batteries or DI2 it would be in most of the bikes since most are riding with D12. Funny how they go and test a bunch of urine years later, publish only Armstrong as someone who's failed and apply the same in this instance where they won't out anyone.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

DrSmile said:


> How would a battery throw off a heat signature like that unless it's shorting?


Internal resistance.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Can't they just take the seatpost out and look into the seat tube with a flashlight?


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## J.R. (Sep 14, 2009)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Can't they just take the seatpost out and look into the seat tube with a flashlight?


Thanks Cinelli...I haven't laughed that hard for months.


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

With a heat signature like that the next thing they'll do is just surround it with coolant/ice water directly from the water bottle.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Marc said:


> Easy enough to setup...problem being FLIR cameras are not cheap. Talking several thousands of USD. The FLIR brand ones while expensive are not high optical resolution either, because IR light is a ton harder to focus. The FLIRs are quite sensitive to fractions of a degree C.
> 
> It is a clever way to find these things, potentially....as soon as they actually show that it works.
> 
> ...


Dvor.com often has nice thermal scopes on sale for a couple thousand. Find the mechanical doperz and take them out on the spot!


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

DrSmile said:


> Well actually after watching the video it seems that was just them trying it out on a bike with a known motor. So the actual thing was likely not as obvious.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Guess you didn't watch it all.

The picture in the articles and such is from their own bike, yes. They tested their own bike with a motor with the camera and ones with Di2 batteries and had experts review it. Only a motor can make the signature shown is their findings.

Now if you watch it all, you will see the camera in action at the live event. You can see them scanning riders as they go by and you can see one that has a motor in the hub/cassette/whatever. He obviously has riders in front and behind him all with normal looking bikes but it's quite obvious when a motor rolls by. They counted 6 or 7 in total. And as they said, they were largely all different. A couple of the cheap ones, some smaller and more sophisticated ones, some in the rear hub. Nothing in the rims themselves as the newspapers have been saying, just the hubs or seat tubes.

They have the video proof from the events. I don't know what else there is to say. The only argument is that they doctored the FLIR footage or something. Other than that it's quite solid looking.

Why is the UCI still now refusing to use FLIR or something similar? Why is the UCI still now refusing to do any live checking while the riders are moving? Why is the UCI still now insisting their magic tablets are the one and only key needed? Give me a break. Since when can the UCI be trusted? That's right, since never.

I believe the FLIR footage from both events. I don't trust the UCI. I believe the reports about micro dosing by the same type of media as well.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I only watched what was linked in the first video. That is what's shown in the photo.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Here is a screen-grab from the video:










I have to agree that there is clearly something afoot based on this image/video. I've cleaned my hub after sprinting home and not once has it been warm to the touch.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

DrSmile said:


> Here is a screen-grab from the video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The other thing to be mindful of with FLIR imagery, is that you can pick up IR reflections off planar objects. That screengrab, I see IR reflections off the wheels coming from that car right next to the cyclists bike. Note how all the bicycle wheels in that shot are over the background temp. And being a climb you wouldn't expect any rims to show heat as you are climbing.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Marc said:


> The other thing to be mindful of with FLIR imagery, is that you can pick up IR reflections off planar objects. That screengrab, I see IR reflections off the wheels coming from that car right next to the cyclists bike. Note how all the bicycle wheels in that shot are over the background temp. And being a climb you wouldn't expect any rims to show heat as you are climbing.


If you watch the video it's pretty consistent over 30 or so yards. I am very skeptical that it is a reflection.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

BURN THE WITCHES!!

:mad5::mad5:


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

there's a couple sections where the front wheel is glowing as well so that part is a bit shaky. The ST glows were far more damning


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree, mechanical cheating calls for automatic lifetime ban. Period.


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## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)

I agree, mechanical cheating calls for automatic lifetime ban. Period.

Rider and mechanic.


Also team $$$$$$ fine.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Aren't the bikes furnished by the team & worked on by their mechanics? 
I would think a team ban would be in order, not for the sponser, for the Director, Mechanics, & Rider. All banned from UCI events.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Explosive claims that UCI official alerted others to police operations against hidden motors | CyclingTips

UCI isn't doing enough because they're in on it.

Can't say I'm surprised even in the least bit.

How can they say that thermal cameras don't even work? lol. How? Because they do and they don't want them used. When outsiders used them, they caught cheaters in the act, and it wasn't just at one race either.



> Stade 2 has alleged that the UCI worked to disrupt a police investigation into mechanical doping during last year’s Tour de France.


They have plenty of proof too.

Prudhomme calls for independent body to deal with mechanical doping | Cyclingnews.com

Stade 2 programme claims UCI tipped off others about police investigation into mechanical doping | Cyclingnews.com

The UCI is entirely corrupt. They have zero respect from me and should be abolished, should have been long ago. I'm with Tinkov on this one:



> They need to take the lead and reform without the UCI. The reforms ASO would make would be better without the UCI because they really do nothing, they’re sort of an impotent structure.


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

Why would the police care about "motor doping"??

This is no different than when UCI gave Armstrong the heads-up that his tests were hot. 

At least the WWF (WWE) has come clean and said what they do is "sports" entertainment.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

The world's first fully hidden bicycle motor system

We invented the world's first completely hidden motor for bicycles and we are now making it available for the general public to use. Completely silent and undetectable, you can use it safe with the knowledge no body else will realise. Featuring a remote control switch, the SuperDiscreto model has both the motor and the power source hidden in the frame with no wires anywhere on the bicycle, providing just the correct amount of energy push you need for climbs or sudden attacks in competition.


Doped Bikes


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

velodog said:


> Doped Bikes


Looks to me to just be a joke site.



> WHAT DO I DO IF THE MOTOR IS DISCOVERED?
> 
> You won't be discovered. Our earlier custom motors have won many important races with no problems. However if you are discovered do not dislose the remote control. This way you can deny knowldge and explain it is a borrowed bike.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Not sure if that site is serious or not. . . .


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Coolhand said:


> Not sure if that site is serious or not. . . .


I don't know either, but I had to post it here.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

They should ban batteries all around (100%). It would make it much easier to spot motors and such. Not going to happen obviously but it would work well in detecting cheaters.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Coolhand said:


> Not sure if that site is serious or not. . . .


About as serious as the UCI is about doping, bio or mechanical!


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

BikeLayne said:


> They should ban batteries all around (100%). It would make it much easier to spot motors and such. Not going to happen obviously but* it would work well in detecting cheaters.*


How? The batteries are hidden as well as the motor.

The real problem with PED's and motor doping is the UCI. It'd all be easy to sniff out if that is what they wanted to do.

The UCI could spend $299 at Newegg to solve the mysterious motor doping problem.

Seek Thermal Imaging Camera for iPhone 5 & 6 with Lighting Connector / iOS7.0+ - Newegg.ca


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

USA Cycling teamed up with FLIR, the companyb to scan a recent event, I think the TOC. They also allow disc brakes still. Just saying. Maybe the UCI should just follow them and collect a paycheck already. The legal kind... only the legal kind.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Surprise, Surprise!

Report: UCI's test for hidden motors ineffective | VeloNews.com

The UCI tablets officially don't do what they say they do.

Oh really?












> The UCI is believed to have scanned more than 40,000 bikes in the past two years, using tablets to help detect the presence of hidden motors. Reporters from Italian daily newspaper Il Corriere della Sera reportedly got hold of one of the scanners and, in collaboration with France 2 and ARD, took the device to the Fraunhofer Institute for Nondestructive Testing.
> 
> Researchers used the tablet to scan a bike equipped with an electromagnetic induction wheel but the tablet failed to detect any magnetic field. The motor was visible in subsequent X-ray scans.
> 
> ...


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