# Is this Specialized Future Shock 500 hrs thing true?



## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Is this Specialized Future Shock 500 hrs thing true?

Or is it all poppycock/bollox??

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/1133404-specialized-calls-future-shock-assembly-replaced-every-500-hours.html


I've seen some people with this future shock on their Specialized, and they love it (_or swear by it when we, albeit rarely, hit pave'_). But most of them have 2017/2018 Specialized bikes, with probably less than 5K miles on the bikes. The only time I see them on their Specialized Roubaix bikes is when it is known the kermesse race and/or club ride is going to be hitting lots of pave sections. All other times, most of these people are on a different bikes, which honestly is a significant amount of the time since pave (_for those who live & ride here in Belgium/Netherlands_) is avoided as much as possible....even by kermesse organizers Sure, region-visitors/curiosity-seekers/truly-sadists ride pave as part of their ride. You see them only occasionally though (unless it is a specific rando geared for that). They are usually noticeable by their grinning under-their-helmet like_ Jack N. in the The Shining_ . Can only imagine what's is going on and/or has happened in their cerebral cortex. 


Anyhow, 500 hrs? Future Shock? Wouldn't that be way less than even one year for those that ride the bike with Future Shock regularly? Maybe the replacement of 500 hrs is based on how truly rough the tarmac is that one rides? And not just some absolute "500 hr ridden" thing??

Any Future Shock riders out there can comment??


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

BelgianHammer said:


> Is this Specialized Future Shock 500 hrs thing true?
> 
> Or is it all poppycock/bollox??
> 
> ...


I guess it really is a "Future Shock" because after 500 hours into the future you'll be shocked to find out you bike needs a repair


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Do you have this in any official Specialized documentation? 

From your link.


> Specialized calls for the Future Shock to be serviced every 500 hours. And by service they mean replace the entire Future Shock cartridge. It is not intended to be taken apart and cleaned and regreased.


It's just a spring piston. This video shows how to take it apart and lube it. Looks pretty basic. MTB shocks typically call for much more frequent maintenance (although those are air/oil shocks)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIi6s6_YqL0

Another post in your link


> I talked to a few other Specialized stores, some of which are large specialized concept stores, and none of them had been told by Specialized that this is a maintenance part.


If it were me, I'd clean and lube it occasionally and check it for play. If no play, I'd keep using it. 
It's not clear to me whether is uses bushings or bearings and if they're replaceable. Some of the posts in your link talk about needle bearings. I don't see any or that needle bearings could possibly fit. Looks like white guide bushings to me.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I would be shocked if this is true.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Sounds like one more thing that can go wrong. It also sounds like Specialized was not upfront about maintenance....um, I mean replacement of the cartridge every 500 hours. So they wait for you to go down the rabbit hole, then they hit you with this.

And who the heck measures the hours they are on the bike? Does the Futureshock thingy give you any warning before the cartridge is about to self destruct?

Personally, I would pass and get a bike with room for wider tires instead.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

That’s probably an aggressive CYA figure like any maintenance interval. Your car is not going to die just because it misses its 10000mi or 1yr service, neither will a FutureShock. 

500 hours is roughly 10 hours of riding a week for a while year. I don’t think that’s a huge issue. Springs also don’t just go bad or lose tension either so I have no reason to expect them to fail.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> I would be shocked if this is true.


Did you fall out of the corny humor tree this week?


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## robc in wi (Sep 8, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Sounds like one more thing that can go wrong. It also sounds like Specialized was not upfront about maintenance....um, I mean replacement of the cartridge every 500 hours. So they wait for you to go down the rabbit hole, then they hit you with this.
> 
> And who the heck measures the hours they are on the bike? Does the Futureshock thingy give you any warning before the cartridge is about to self destruct?
> 
> Personally, I would pass and get a bike with room for wider tires instead.


Actually lots of serious riders look at hours in the saddle vs miles. Calculated on free Strava if you use it and easy to check.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

robc in wi said:


> Actually lots of serious riders look at hours in the saddle vs miles. Calculated on free Strava if you use it and easy to check.


That doesn't work if you have multiple bikes. Strava combines time of all bikes. 

Strava "My Gear" tracks your bikes / components individually. Works great, but only option for mileage, not hours.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

So the shock needs to be serviced every 500 hours?
120 pound rider on a smooth bike path or 270 pound rider bombing trails hitting roots and rocks.....500 hours. um, sure. Sounds like a very wild guess to me.


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## robc in wi (Sep 8, 2011)

tlg said:


> That doesn't work if you have multiple bikes. Strava combines time of all bikes.
> 
> Strava "My Gear" tracks your bikes / components individually. Works great, but only option for mileage, not hours.


Your right, good point. I have several road bikes but do probably 90% on one though.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

Is this an 'it's working or it isn't" component or does it come with symptoms/ tell-tales of the end of its service life?


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

bah, just ride it till is starts failing and replace it. I did about 220 hours last year, though I don't have a Roubaix. 

My wife does have a Roubaix. The thing came with 3 different springs for the top half of the cartridge one of which we installed - the light one installed in a minute. It came covered in grease, so I imagine just keep both springs greased and get long life. super simple mechanism.

$55 is what I pay for one tire, and get about 200 hours out of one on the rear.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

500 hours is 7500 to 10000 miles of riding (15-20mph average). So 1-3 years at specialized CYA replacement schedule. I don't really consider 10000 miles a year average or typical though, so for your average cyclist that would pick a roubaix over a more aggressive bike you will probably get 2-4 years out of it if it was your only bike which seems reasonable.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

taodemon said:


> 500 hours is 7500 to 10000 miles of riding (15-20mph average). So 1-3 years at specialized CYA replacement schedule. I don't really consider 10000 miles a year average or typical though, so for your average cyclist that would pick a roubaix over a more aggressive bike you will probably get 2-4 years out of it if it was your only bike which seems reasonable.


Though keep in mind that if you normally ride more hilly terrain, most people won't be riding a 15-20mph average.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Though keep in mind that if you normally ride more hilly terrain, most people won't be riding a 15-20mph average.


Yes, If you ride in the mountains all year or are a much slower rider that could be the case. My 62yo dad (only started biking at 58) managed an 18mph average riding in MA with 292k ft of climbing over 6k miles, which isn't an extreme amount of climbing by any means but definitely not a flat lander either so 15mph should still be pretty attainable by your average rider on "average" terrain. 

You are still going to change tires/chain more often and depending on cost of the spring (no idea what it costs to replace) you can always cheap out and use one of the harder/softer ones that come with the bike before you actually have to spend anything. 

You have the 3 springs that are good for 1500 CYA hours, and depending on rider weight/road conditions I wouldn't doubt if you couldn't get double that time out of them, it isn't like too many of us regularly ride cobbles.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

You know, as I mentioned, when I see these guys on their Specialized Roubaix with FutureShock, it is always when it is known the ride/race is hitting cobbles or pave-with-clothes sections (explained later). Everyone I've asked swears by thing, a few mentioned that is is better than the Domane's frontend (but I truly wonder how they know that).

Anyhow, I guess 500 hrs wouldn't be a bad thing if you were only pulling the bike out every so often, which is what all the guys I know who have the Spesh FutureShock do. Any other times, they are all on different bikes. I gotta admit, I am wondering now, and curious. I am getting older now, and these pave sections, especially the ones not maintained well, and also the so-called "pave with clothes" streets/sections (_these are streets where Belgium couldn't see fit to dig up the pave, so they tried to lay a thin layer of asphalt over it, and then leave it go for years, and, well, let me just say they are nearly as nasty as outright pave)_...both of these tarmacs beat the living pee out of me when we hit them (on those days, I am on my titanium running 28mm rubber).

Just wish Specialized made the Roubaix with Futureshock without forcing me to go to disc brakes. I am not ready to go there (disc) yet, so it looks like a no-go for me. I guess I could go the route of getting a Diverge, which has the Futureshock and is offered in a frame with rim brakes.....but I am not one who gets off to take the road less well traveled, which is what the Diverge is for.

Thanks everyone for responding.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

BelgianHammer said:


> I am getting older now, and these pave sections, especially the ones not maintained well, and also the so-called "pave with clothes" streets/sections (_these are streets where Belgium couldn't see fit to dig up the pave, so they tried to lay a thin layer of asphalt over it, and then leave it go for years, and, well, let me just say they are nearly as nasty as outright pave)_...both of these tarmacs beat the living pee out of me when we hit them......


Now you know. Isn't getting older fun??  



BelgianHammer said:


> (on those days, I am on my titanium running 28mm rubber).


And what is wrong with that? As you know, I run my Cannondale Synapse Carbon with 700x28 tires.



BelgianHammer said:


> Just wish Specialized made the Roubaix with Futureshock without forcing me to go to disc brakes. I am not ready to go there (disc) yet, so it looks like a no-go for me. I guess I could go the route of getting a Diverge, which has the Futureshock and is offered in a frame with rim brakes.....but I am not one who gets off to take the road less well traveled, which is what the Diverge is for.


Well, I have to admit that while for a long time, I dismissed disc brakes as unnecessary. Then I owned a hydraulic disc brake gravel bike and have actually grown to like them. Not that there is anything wrong with good rim brakes like Ultegra 6800s, but hydraulic disc brakes have excellent modulation, braking power and being hydraulic, they are self adjusting as the pads wear. The downside is that you have to be extra careful not to pull a brake lever when the wheel is out or the adjustment will be out of whack.

My point is not to argue one type of brake over another here. My point is that a bike decision should not be made because of whether it has rim or disc brakes - with the possible exception that I would avoid mechanical disc brakes.

If you don't want to go to a gravel bike, you should look into the 2018 Cannondale Synapse Carbon (disc brakes) which has clearance for 32mm tires. Another road bike worthy of a look is the Jamis Quest Elite Steel (rim brakes) which I believe can take 30mm tires.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> The downside is that you have to be extra careful not to pull a brake lever when the wheel is out or the adjustment will be out of whack.


Or.... the piston will pop right out of the caliper. Dumping hydraulic fluid all over the floor.
not that I've ever done that. :frown2:


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Or.... the piston will pop right out of the caliper. Dumping hydraulic fluid all over the floor.
> not that I've ever done that. :frown2:


Yikes! I've never done that thank goodness! The worst that happened to me was when I removed the front wheel to put the bike in the back of the car. The front lever was inadvertently pulled and when I re-installed the wheel - brake rub! At the time, I didn't know much about disc brakes, so back to the shop where I bought it. They spread the calipers and all was good.


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## Mark50 (Aug 18, 2018)

FYI. 2019 Future shock has new lower progressive spring and upper spring not needed. It comes with 3 upper springs to add more stiffness if desired. Now delivered without upper spring.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

Lombard said:


> Sounds like one more thing that can go wrong. It also sounds like Specialized was not upfront about maintenance....um, I mean replacement of the cartridge every 500 hours. So they wait for you to go down the rabbit hole, then they hit you with this.
> *
> And who the heck measures the hours they are on the bike?* Does the Futureshock thingy give you any warning before the cartridge is about to self destruct?
> 
> Personally, I would pass and get a bike with room for wider tires instead.


Cough-Strava-cough


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## AdamRider (Feb 11, 2019)

By this post I hope to help others understand one potential maintenance item (and possible drawback of the Future Shock (FS) system ...

I just experienced a terminal problem with a FS cartridge in a 2018 Diverge. Not that many hours into the bike (which bike btw I REALLY like), maybe only 4,000 miles, the unit began sticking, operation became unbearably rough and was rapidly getting worse. This happened after a year hard riding in the Florida heat (light touring & gravel riding), and - as I discovered - the issue failure is almost certainly due to me constantly dripping "toxic" forehead/chin sweat right onto the top of the steerer tube & FS cartridge.

The simple part of the FS cartridge is the progressive rate spring that can be swapped out / is greased in the cartridge, etc., etc. That part's not the issue at all; it's probably indestructible / is not the more complex moving part of the FS system that failed on my bike. After pulling the cartridge out and then noting that the bottom of the cartridge was dripping with lots of cancerous rust -- at a level that clearly signaled total internal destruction -- I disassembled the bottom of the FS cartridge.

IMPORTANT - that bottom end of the cartridge is NOT user servicable. But the damage was so evident and severe that I decided I had nothing to lose except to figure out what on earth happened - so I could possibly prevent this from happening again / avoid issues with a new replacement FS cartridge (which I'm presently trying to track down). BTW, since Specialized's warranty does nor cover "corrosion" (a fact I learned after a Roval rear hub on my Tarmac began to bubble / shed its paint), I wasn't going to spend hours of frustration trying to get the FS cartridge replaced under warranty.

It was immediately evident on FS disassembly that the roller bearings and their races were completely corroded. These 3 banks, each of 13 roller bearings, are the fairly complex, hidden (and non-user servicable) mechanism that allows the outer race of the inner shaft to move up/down within the outer FS cylinder (hope that gibberish is clear). So - since the bike design is utterly dependent on having a FS cartridge - my only hope to avoid having to pay for / find a new cartridge every one or 2 riding seasons is to devise some kind of cover over my replacement cartridge that would divert my sweat from seeping into the top of the cartridge (clearly around the circumference of inner shafting, despite a close-fitting, but not sweat-proof, rubber boot. I hope some Specialized engineer takes this comment to heart and the company avoids the mistake of dismissing this as a crank complaint. It's a weakness inherent in the design - but one that a good engineering staff can remedy (perhaps a really watertight seal at the top?). The Diverge is a great, useful bike. So I hope this item can and will be improved.

BTW - the dealer parts system says the FS cartridge is $125. But it shows as no stock at all in the company's system?! I'm really hoping that just isn't correct, as the dealer is helpfully trying to hunt one down for me. Very Interesting Note: I just discovered that the collar / clamping mechanism that holds the FS cartridge into the steerer tube is under recall as failure would mean loss of steering. 3 guesses as to the issue being addressed in the recall - yep! susceptibility to corrosion and failure. Waterproofing the top of the rubber boot may help that as well. I'm actually glad my FS system signaled signs of slow destruction early, as now I can remedy that as well without having to learn the very hard and painful way. Hope this helps someone.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

AdamRider said:


> By this post I hope to help others understand one potential maintenance item (and possible drawback of the Future Shock (FS) system ...
> 
> I just experienced a terminal problem with a FS cartridge in a 2018 Diverge. Not that many hours into the bike (which bike btw I REALLY like), maybe only 4,000 miles, the unit began sticking, operation became unbearably rough and was rapidly getting worse. This happened after a year hard riding in the Florida heat (light touring & gravel riding), and - as I discovered - the issue failure is almost certainly due to me constantly dripping "toxic" forehead/chin sweat right onto the top of the steerer tube & FS cartridge.
> 
> ...


Maybe you can design and patent a new product - the FSC (Future Shock Condom).


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

500 hours is a lot even for someone who rides a lot unless it’s their only bike


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

Buy a couple of them if it ever starts getting hard to find them. They’re cheap.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

thisisthebeave said:


> 500 hours is a lot even for someone who rides a lot unless it’s their only bike


Define "a lot". Someone who rides 7,500 miles in a year at an average speed of 15mph will have done 500 hours of riding.

I ride 3000 miles per year and average around 14mph. 500 hours of riding is less than 2 1/2 years.


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## desaljs (Jun 5, 2015)

I saw that Specialized has formally announced a voluntary recall on the future shock. I have a new Diverge, and will take it in for new parts to be installed. Have not really rode it yet!


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## bike-ra (Jul 30, 2017)

*$330 for an FS Cartridge?!*

I've ridden my '18 Roubaix for about 300hrs. and figured it might be a good idea to get a spare FS cartridge given that the 1.0 version is not what's used on the latest Roubaix (and who knows how long Specialized will have these available). However, unlike the $55 cost I originally read about (and the $55 and $125 reported earlier in this thread), my LBS quoted me $330 (which they said came directly from Specialized):confused5:. Has anyone else recently attempted to buy one of these and what was the cost?


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## jbenson (Jan 10, 2020)

The cartridge is fully serviceable (though if small parts are broken internally I'm unsure on the availability of those - so that's probably a situtation for a new cartridge). Here's the video for servicing. https://player.vimeo.com/video/194424765


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## bike-ra (Jul 30, 2017)

jbenson said:


> The cartridge is fully serviceable (though if small parts are broken internally I'm unsure on the availability of those - so that's probably a situtation for a new cartridge). Here's the video for servicing. https://player.vimeo.com/video/194424765


Thanks - will give it a try!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Specialized is a crap enginmaneering company! Having the public testing beta product and then do a recall. They've used this strategy with their forks.
Another 5 years and these future shock bikes will have a zero resale value as no shock parts will be available.


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## jbenson (Jan 10, 2020)

The recall wasn't on the futureshock cartridge. It was on a small collar with a set screw. Has nothing to do with supposed beta testing. And they're using this cartridge on more and more bikes, so I don't see where having a fully serviceable cartridge and replacement cartridges available makes for a bike with no resale value. I mean, shimano changes their parts less than every 5 years and yet that doesn't negate the whole resale value. Or what about people who buy a full suspension bike? Suspension components are obsolete in most brands every 5 years.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

comparing parts availability between Spesh and Shim? Pfff. Look on ebay, it's littered with Shim parts, hell even DA 7400 parts could still be found if you're so inclined, that's 25 years ago.


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## jbenson (Jan 10, 2020)

maybe you should take your negativity elsewhere. The rest of us here were trying to solve a problem and answer questions regarding serviceability of bikes people already own and you're here just being debbie downer. Don't like it, then don't buy it. Simple. Others already bought it and would like to know how to service it to keep it working for a long time. Just like with suspension for mountain bikes. regular service prolongs the life of the part.


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## bike-ra (Jul 30, 2017)

jbenson said:


> The cartridge is fully serviceable (though if small parts are broken internally I'm unsure on the availability of those - so that's probably a situtation for a new cartridge). Here's the video for servicing. https://player.vimeo.com/video/194424765


Finally watched the video and saw that the re-build work involves an array of tools I don't have. Some of these I can probably make do without and some I can buy at a reasonable cost, though some seem to be one-off items only available from Specialized (and probably pricey). Of course Specialized won't sell these tools directly to me a "consumer" and my LBS might charge me more for them than the $350 they quoted me for a new cartridge...I might be wrong, I might be right but will have to see.

Has anyone tried this project and determined whether it can be done without needing any of the one-off tools from Specialized?


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## rudge66 (Apr 1, 2019)

Has anyone had the courage to just come out and state the obvious?

That jiggly future shock is a silly gimmick thats just as stupid as the zigzag seat clamp, Zerts iso-vibulator and such; complete marketing nonsense.

Folks that bought are stuck with their poor judgment and need to stop defending it.
Let’s not encourage _future_ foolishness from designers.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

rudge66 said:


> Has anyone had the courage to just come out and state the obvious?
> 
> That jiggly future shock is a silly gimmick thats just as stupid as the zigzag seat clamp, Zerts iso-vibulator and such; complete marketing nonsense.
> 
> ...


how dare you bring such negativity, ms debbie downer!

lol those who know Specialized know this is the company that brought us that stupid leaky "brain" fork and shock some 10 years ago. Oil leaked so bad that if you use your bike 4-5 times/wk, then expect to send these items in 2-3 times/yr for a warranty rebuid, with each time taking weeks you're without your bike. After the warranty period, you eat the rebuild cost. Once the community caught wind of the problem, a lot of bikes equipped with the "brain" technology became almost worthless (well not worthless, but could be had for almost chump change compared to their original price)


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## rudge66 (Apr 1, 2019)

aclinjury said:


> how dare you bring such negativity, ms debbie downer!
> 
> lol


LOL 
I’m just in a fit today ... oh and don’t get me started on the Holy of Holy’s The most sacred,...yup you guessed it; Trek’s ISO Decoupler.
Or shall we say The Noodle-Izer . 
Oops.. you’re not allowed to talk about that , it’s offensive and goes way ”out of bounds “ of forum etiquette.


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## bike-ra (Jul 30, 2017)

rudge66 said:


> Has anyone had the courage to just come out and state the obvious?
> 
> That jiggly future shock is a silly gimmick thats just as stupid as the zigzag seat clamp, Zerts iso-vibulator and such; complete marketing nonsense.
> 
> ...


I love my Roubaix mainly because of what the FS1 technology does for the ride/handling quality (which was far superior to all other "Endurance" bikes I demo'd). I've not experienced any "real" issues with it, though I'll admit that its been difficult to get Specialized (and my LBS) to give me a clear idea of what service the shock will require, when it will be needed, whether I can rebuild it myself and, if not, how much will the LBS charge to do it, and why the LBS wants to charge me $350 for a spare cartridge (so I can replace it when the original one goes to hell). For me that's disconcerting but worth it!


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

For anyone needing an alternative = suspension stem, from Softride - from the '90s. Uses great springs, and works really well - Trust Me. Will sell for less than $200, with free shipping.

email me.

'the good stuff always comes back into fashion'


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Dragging this back up. Has anyone found a totaly bypass kit for this system?


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## desaljs (Jun 5, 2015)

I traded away a basically new Diverge with the Gen 1 Future Shock once I heard about, and had the recall done. I realized right then, that I would never be totally comfortable knowing that Gen 1 was not done right. I am now on a Giant Revolt.


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## lazarusdal (Jun 12, 2021)

AdamRider said:


> By this post I hope to help others understand one potential maintenance item (and possible drawback of the Future Shock (FS) system ...
> 
> I just experienced a terminal problem with a FS cartridge in a 2018 Diverge. Not that many hours into the bike (which bike btw I REALLY like), maybe only 4,000 miles, the unit began sticking, operation became unbearably rough and was rapidly getting worse. This happened after a year hard riding in the Florida heat (light touring & gravel riding), and - as I discovered - the issue failure is almost certainly due to me constantly dripping "toxic" forehead/chin sweat right onto the top of the steerer tube & FS cartridge.
> 
> ...


I just had to replace the retainer too bearing clamp on a 2019 Roubaix, it was poorly designed and did not fail due to corrosion the inside of the clamp was poorly designed and under spec , just like a part I had to redesign on a $5000 dollar LOOK 695, terrible engineering these days, obviously they are using interns to do their basic design work and I haven't this shoddy of parts sent the 80's and japan was a mfg country to be worried about. Any way it should all be stainless , why on my Roubaix a $4000 bike are none of the fasteners stainless ? first thing I end up doing is replacing most of the fasteners in the stem and headset with stainless as I live in Thailand with 80% humidity and everything thing rusts, regularly so annual maintenance is mandatory ... I have picked up 4 local carbon framed bikes, a Bianchi Oltre, the Roubaix , a Time RXR, and a Trek Madone 5.2 all with corrosion issues in the stem and steerer tube and pedals and head set and BB practically given away due to corrosion and frozen parts that the owners couldn't manage, I have 25 plus years of factory maintenance experience and can fix just about anything including getting it apart, so I manage but bad designs my multi million dollars companies still burn my butt no end ... 500 hours ... my favorite bike a Atala classic steel bike I have for over 20 years of regular riding and could maintain it with a thumb full of grease and a screw driver and some wrenches ... till it was stolen , am actually thinking of selling all my carbon bikes and go get a nice classic for the nest 20 of stupidly designed parts from " world class z" designers ... ha ...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

they say one reason why the Big Brands charge us more then the Chinese brands is because the Bigs do "R&D".


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## lazarusdal (Jun 12, 2021)

even though most companies are nw buying the chinese product, slapping on their label and doubling the price for next to no work ... corporate greed ... I just a a Sheng-lo e-bike off Lazada in thailand 677 dollars delivered , the exact model on Amazon 1400 almost twice the price ... and you wonder why Jeff B is so freaking rich ... he is nothing but a glorified sales person taking a bigger cut than the designers and manufactures ... and Amazon doesn't even warranty it ...


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