# Carbon clincher being safe for descend on hills or mountains...



## j73

I have a all carbon clincher FSA sl-k wheelset with yellow swissstop pads that came with. Today first time using on a long steep descend with curves, and btw being a wet road from the rain last night. My bike handling skills are not the best, I was using the brakes a lot just to have a constant speed of 15-20mph which if I did not brake as much I will easily reach 30-40mph. I'm 125lbs which I don't think give really a big load for trying to stop, but I notice that when I was trying to ride on the brakes and with the combination of on and off I was smelling burned rubber. Guessing the pads are overheating with rims or other way around. Nothing catastrophic happened, and wheelset were okay I guess...I don't see any changes in the braking surface as of now. My question is, are these normal to be like this when being use on steep hills or I'm just braking too much? I read about threads that carbon clinchers tend to warp or even fail when it overheats. Do I have to improve my braking skills?


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## spdntrxi

yes they are pretty safe for most roads and some CC's are better then others.... but it all depends on conditions. I did Levi's Gran Fondo this year and honestly wished I had Al clinchers.. I will next year (Shimano C24's already purchased). The main reason is that I could not descend the way I wanted to because of the traffic and thus rode the brakes pretty hard on -15%.


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## Notvintage

spdntrxi said:


> yes they are pretty safe for most roads and some CC's are better then others...


Very true. As much as Zipp annoys me as a company, their CC compound resin is superior to any other I've ridden. Their cC rims stop as good as aluminum in rain and don't overheat.


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## metoou2

you will be just fine....................you have the right idea, don't ride the brakes the entire way down


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## coachboyd

I would probably swap out the yellow Swissstop for the Black Prince. Better brake pad and MUCH less heat build up.

Try to brake in an on/off method. Grab both the front and rear brake at the same time and brake pretty hard for a few seconds, then release both for a few seconds. This will build up the heat and then let it dissipate. Don't drag your brakes for prolonged periods of time or switch between using the front and then the rear brake.


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## BelgianHammer

.....uhmm, coachboyd, how are we supposed to "grab & release" when we're coming down the Altamont? From the reverse direction, not the normal way up?? On those select few nasty steep sections, there no "grab" or "release"; it's more "squeeze 'em for dear life" and hope we all don't hit one another and/or go sailing off the side of the road...hahahahaha


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## looigi

coachboyd said:


> ... Better brake pad and MUCH less heat build up...


Only if it defies the laws of physics. Heat is equal to the kinetic and potential energy being dissipated, nothing else. Resultant temperature is almost entirely dependent on the thermal properties of the rim material and its shape. For example, aluminum has a higher specific heat and is much more thermally conductive than CF so peak temperatures will be lower.


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## ericm979

Some burning rubber smell is normal for carbon rims.

The Yellows are the worst pad for putting heat into rims. When I hear of people ruining their rims it's usually with Yellows. If the rim maker recommends any other pad, try those.

If you're a poor descender and can only go 20mph on a descent where others can do 40, you should not be on carbon clinchers. If everyone is slowing to 20 for tight turns, then you should reconsider using carbon clinchers for that kind of descent.


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## coachboyd

looigi said:


> Only if it defies the laws of physics. Heat is equal to the kinetic and potential energy being dissipated, nothing else. Resultant temperature is almost entirely dependent on the thermal properties of the rim material and its shape. For example, aluminum has a higher specific heat and is much more thermally conductive than CF so peak temperatures will be lower.


Brake pads will absolutely have a say in heat build up. We have done a ton of testing on different brake pads and have seen all sorts of temperatures under the exact same braking conditions in a lab environment. 
Same PSI, same wheel, same force being driven to the wheel, same weight on it, same braking force, and same braking duration. The only variable that changed was brake pads and between various pads we have seen differences of over 100 degrees Celsius.

Swissstop has even done this same kind of testing and have shown the temperature differences in the same tests between the two versions.


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## MMsRepBike

Good post, I was just about to say that.

For those saying not to ride the brakes, well you obviously have never climbed a mountain of any pitch. There is no option to not ride the brakes, if you don't, you crash. If it's a road like a national park parkway or something, you'll be fine. But if it's a steep pitched switchback road, there is no choice in the matter, the brakes are on the whole way down, maybe 90% of the time minimum.

But in general keep the carbon clinchers off of the mountains, they don't belong there. Get a pair with an alloy braking track for the pitches. And if you must run carbon clinchers please run good pads.

I personally have descended really nasty mountains on ENVE wheels and pads without issue while those next to me had their rims explode. So the rims do have a say in the matter as well.


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## redondoaveb

When I received my carbon clinchers I did a comparison test with them and my aluminum clinchers (Neuvation). There is a hill near me that is a third of a mile long, averages 14% and has a max grade of a little over 20%. 
https://www.strava.com/segments/618010

You have to ride your brakes hard all the way down as it tee's at the bottom (no where to bail out). 

I rode my aluminum clinchers down and as soon as I stopped at the bottom, I reached down and felt the brake track (front and rear) They were so hot that I couldn't keep my fingers on them.

Next ride out I put on my carbon clinchers (same bike, same conditions) and rode the same hill. 

As soon as I stopped at the bottom, I felt the front and rear brake tracks. Barely warm.

The only issues I have with my carbon clinchers is that they require more lever pressure to get the same braking power as the aluminum (although I can still lock up the rear easily) and on long descents when they do start to get warm, I get some squealing.


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## looigi

coachboyd said:


> Brake pads will absolutely have a say in heat build up. We have done a ton of testing on different brake pads and have seen all sorts of temperatures under the exact same braking conditions in a lab environment. ...


Submit you results to The Physical Review and see if it gets published. I suspect issues with the testing methodology, however.


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## deviousalex

looigi said:


> Submit you results to The Physical Review and see if it gets published. I suspect issues with the testing methodology, however.


Aren't you ignoring the heat transfer coefficient of different materials in the brake pad?


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## mfdemicco

redondoaveb said:


> When I received my carbon clinchers I did a comparison test with them and my aluminum clinchers (Neuvation). There is a hill near me that is a third of a mile long, averages 14% and has a max grade of a little over 20%.
> https://www.strava.com/segments/618010
> 
> You have to ride your brakes hard all the way down as it tee's at the bottom (no where to bail out).
> 
> I rode my aluminum clinchers down and as soon as I stopped at the bottom, I reached down and felt the brake track (front and rear) They were so hot that I couldn't keep my fingers on them.
> 
> Next ride out I put on my carbon clinchers (same bike, same conditions) and rode the same hill.
> 
> As soon as I stopped at the bottom, I felt the front and rear brake tracks. Barely warm.
> 
> The only issues I have with my carbon clinchers is that they require more lever pressure to get the same braking power as the aluminum (although I can still lock up the rear easily) and on long descents when they do start to get warm, I get some squealing.


Yeah, well all that heat has to go somewhere, like into the brake pads and tires and tubes.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...d-wrench-taking-on-the-carbon-clincher_277711


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## 2Slo4U

I live in Utah with mountain descents all around. I ride both Zipp's and Enve's. I've never had a problem with either pair when descending. For reference, I'm 170 lbs. 

Your results may vary....


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## redondoaveb

mfdemicco said:


> Yeah, well all that heat has to go somewhere, like into the brake pads and tires and tubes.
> 
> The Torqued Wrench: Taking on the carbon clincher - VeloNews.com


Yeah, well, you don't think the heat from the aluminum brake track that is too hot to touch isn't doing the same thing?


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## springs

deviousalex said:


> Aren't you ignoring the heat transfer coefficient of different materials in the brake pad?


I think so, and there is a diffrence between heat dissipated and temperature. Boyd is using the word "heat" but is measuring temperature. Still, I think his point is valid if the rim temperature is lower with the black pads. I'm not a physicist and could be wrong.


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## mfdemicco

redondoaveb said:


> Yeah, well, you don't think the heat from the aluminum brake track that is too hot to touch isn't doing the same thing?


No, the heat is being conducted away by the rim and cooled by the air over a wide area.


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## redondoaveb

mfdemicco said:


> No, the heat is being conducted away by the rim and cooled by the air over a wide area.


If the outside of the aluminum brake track (which is only a couple of mm's thick) is too hot to touch then I've got to believe the inside of this this piece of aluminum is just as hot on a descent. How can the inside be getting cooled and the outside is too hot to touch. I believe the outside would get cooled first since it's exposed to the air.


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## robt57

redondoaveb said:


> If the outside of the aluminum brake track is too hot to touch...


Not to mention the epoxy in the all carbon matrix VS the mechanical bond of the AL Brake track..

Which has better ability not to melt I wonder...


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## MoPho

MMsRepBike said:


> Good post, I was just about to say that.
> 
> For those saying not to ride the brakes, well you obviously have never climbed a mountain of any pitch. There is no option to not ride the brakes, if you don't, you crash. If it's a road like a national park parkway or something, you'll be fine. But if it's a steep pitched switchback road, there is no choice in the matter, the brakes are on the whole way down, maybe 90% of the time minimum.
> 
> But in general keep the carbon clinchers off of the mountains, they don't belong there. Get a pair with an alloy braking track for the pitches. And if you must run carbon clinchers please run good pads.
> 
> I personally have descended really nasty mountains on ENVE wheels and pads without issue while those next to me had their rims explode. So the rims do have a say in the matter as well.




Yeah maybe if you're coming down the side of Mt Everest 

Learn how to descend and grow some balls and you don't need to ride the brakes 90% of the time. :thumbsup:





.


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## mfdemicco

redondoaveb said:


> If the outside of the aluminum brake track (which is only a couple of mm's thick) is too hot to touch then I've got to believe the inside of this this piece of aluminum is just as hot on a descent. How can the inside be getting cooled and the outside is too hot to touch. I believe the outside would get cooled first since it's exposed to the air.


Yes you're right. But the carbon fiber should have been hotter than the aluminum since the Al conducts heat much better than carbon fiber. Can't explain that other than you didn't do a controlled experiment.


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## exracer

MMsRepBike said:


> Good post, I was just about to say that.
> 
> For those saying not to ride the brakes, well you obviously have never climbed a mountain of any pitch. There is no option to not ride the brakes, if you don't, you crash. If it's a road like a national park parkway or something, you'll be fine. But if it's a steep pitched switchback road, there is no choice in the matter, the brakes are on the whole way down, maybe 90% of the time minimum.
> 
> But in general keep the carbon clinchers off of the mountains, they don't belong there. Get a pair with an alloy braking track for the pitches. And if you must run carbon clinchers please run good pads.
> 
> I personally have descended really nasty mountains on ENVE wheels and pads without issue while those next to me had their rims explode. So the rims do have a say in the matter as well.


Damn, if you are on the brakes 90% of the time downhill just remember one thing; "Slower Traffic Keep Right".


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## spdntrxi

I was on my Enve's during the Levi's Gran Fondo.. the issue was not me so much but all the traffic. I actually stopped for a few minutes and let it clear out and passed them all again on the incline...obviously safer. I got caught behind a wreck that closed down the road for like nearly an hour.. so that pretty much guaranteed a larger then normal group on one of the nastier descents. = no fun.


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## Cromolyman

2Slo4U said:


> I live in Utah with mountain descents all around. I ride both Zipp's and Enve's. I've never had a problem with either pair when descending. For reference, I'm 170 lbs.
> 
> Your results may vary....


Including Little Cottonwood?


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## deviousalex

spdntrxi said:


> I was on my Enve's during the Levi's Gran Fondo.. the issue was not me so much but all the traffic. I actually stopped for a few minutes and let it clear out and passed them all again on the incline...obviously safer. I got caught behind a wreck that closed down the road for like nearly an hour.. so that pretty much guaranteed a larger then normal group on one of the nastier descents. = no fun.


Did your wheels melt or tubes pop? I ran Reynolds DV3Ks on Levi's a couple years ago without issue. That being said I don't drag my brakes constantly.


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## Jay Strongbow

redondoaveb said:


> If the outside of the aluminum brake track (which is only a couple of mm's thick) is too hot to touch then I've got to believe the inside of this this piece of aluminum is just as hot on a descent. How can the inside be getting cooled and the outside is too hot to touch. I believe the outside would get cooled first since it's exposed to the air.


Yes, they alloy would be hot. That's the advantage. The alloy absorbs the heat instead of sending it directly to the tube.

Trying to dispute the science of this is just a red herring anyway. No rational person would argue that alloy and carbon rims react the same to heavy braking or that the potential for blowing a tire due to heat is the same.


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## spdntrxi

deviousalex said:


> Did your wheels melt or tubes pop? I ran Reynolds DV3Ks on Levi's a couple years ago without issue. That being said I don't drag my brakes constantly.


neither.. they just got pretty hot. I did see a lot of people tending to flats in that area with what looked like older Enve's ( I'm on the 3.4s) and other mfg. It was also very hot last year..nearly 100 in places.


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## coachboyd

A lot of times if you reach down and touch your brake track after a long descent it will feel pretty hot. But think about temperatures for a bit. 

Most of the higher temperature rated resins in wheels nowadays is rated to hit between 170 and 200 degrees Celsius. 200 degrees Celsius is twice the temperature to boil water. Next time you are boiling water think about how long you can put your finger inside that water. A second or two at the very most. Hell, I know when I am cooking chicken and get the inside to 165 F (just under 74 degrees C), I can only keep my finger there for a few seconds. So when you can hold your fingers on your brake track for a couple seconds and realize it's hot, it's probably nowhere near the temperature required to melt the resins.

Granted, the rim does start to cool fairly quickly when you come to a stop. So, say it was at 74 degrees Celsius by the time you grabbed the rim. It could have been hotter than that during the braking. I actually just bought an IR thermometer that I am figuring out how to attach to my fork and point it at the rim. I want to see what kind of temperatures we are hitting in real world conditions while riding the brakes.


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## Jay Strongbow

coachboyd said:


> A lot of times if you reach down and touch your brake track after a long descent it will feel pretty hot. But think about temperatures for a bit.
> 
> Most of the higher temperature rated resins in wheels nowadays is rated to hit between 170 and 200 degrees Celsius. 200 degrees Celsius is twice the temperature to boil water. Next time you are boiling water think about how long you can put your finger inside that water. A second or two at the very most. Hell, I know when I am cooking chicken and get the inside to 165 F (just under 74 degrees C), I can only keep my finger there for a few seconds. *So when you can hold your fingers on your brake track for a couple seconds and realize it's hot, it's probably nowhere near the temperature required to melt the resins.*Granted, the rim does start to cool fairly quickly when you come to a stop. So, say it was at 74 degrees Celsius by the time you grabbed the rim. It could have been hotter than that during the braking. I actually just bought an IR thermometer that I am figuring out how to attach to my fork and point it at the rim. I want to see what kind of temperatures we are hitting in real world conditions while riding the brakes.


Does 'melting the resin' really have anything to do with this? I was under the impression that delamination and/or blowing the tire of the rim is the concern here.
So while resins may be rated to xxxx degrees before they actually melt does that matter if the tire's going to be blown off well before they get to that temp?


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## November Dave

On some rims resin can melt. Most older gen resins worked until somewhat over 200f. There are many rims out there for which this is still the case. When we did our testing last summer, where we went down a bunch of hills and measured heat (similar to Boyd's plan) we regularly saw temps over 200* f. So a lot of older rims and many current rims that haven't yet gone to new gen resins would have failed in that testing. And that testing was hard, but not beyond what people do. 

In rims using new gen resins, the fuse has moved - the rims can take nearly 2x that heat but maybe tires can't, both from heat and pressure. Maybe the tire lasts but the resin loses integrity. But this all happens at WAY HOTTER temps than what th old resins could take. 180*f is generally the point of 'too hot to hold.' Now double that and you're what good new rims can take. 220 pounds of bike and rider with good pads and good rims, braking as badly as possible down a steep slope still leaves a huge margin of safety to that point. 

The other thing about well-designed newer rims is that they put a bit more mass on the brake tracks. This works on the same principle as a big pot of water taking a longer time to boil than a smaller volume of water. I always cringe when people are excited about improbably light carbon clinchers. 

No rim, no brake system, no nothing is failure proof. Good practices are still valid. Use good technique and make good purchase and use decisions. If that minivan won't let you pass no matter what down Switchback Mountain Road, let it get a minute or two head start. Stuff like that. 

And yes, pads make a huge difference. Yellows are awful


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## mfdemicco

I haven't ridden Levi's, but have ridden all the roads out there. I blew a tube once when my plastic rim strips melted and blew through a spoke hole in the aluminum rim. Don't use plastic rim strips.


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## BelgianHammer

Reading this thread about carbon rims, braking characteristics, resins, temps, etc.,makes me want to ask two questions (and if I am hijacking this thread, plz forgive me, as it's just I'm not sure whether to start another thread given that these questions might be sort of related to what's being discussed here);

1) question 1: _What is the way forward for carbon rim manufacturers with regards to braking performance?_ I'm no materials scientist and/or metallurgist, but I do read quite a bit of technical journals. From those, I am always wondering why carbon wheel makers are not experimenting with carbon composiites in the rim area. Is it out of their reach at the moment? Too technical?? I ask this because it appears this tinkering/experimenting in this area is quite common for more than a decade now for places like NASA and the ESA. Doesn't stuff usually trickly down by now, especially in out hyper-adoptive "always new" culture? NASA ansd ESA (among others) have been experimenting successfully with carbon composite materials, in what appears, from reseach articles, experimenting with aluminum and/or various borides mixed with carbon. they seem to do this without any compromises to structure integrity and/or strength, and you read about how the material withstands a factor or two more high temps before things start happening to the carbon structure/integrity. Wouldn't carbon wheel manufacturers be huge benficiaries of this sort of thing?? (ok, I am nearly over my knackered brain right now trying to write this... ;-o )

2) 2nd question: _do any of you believe that carbon rims, for the cycling industry, are NOT the long term way forward in terms of materials for wheels?_ I would imagine that the vast majority of cyclists in the world are still mainly on alu rims, a decades-old proven technology. But, that said, even at local rides, or races, or just small group get togethers, you see quite a surprising range of individuals who have carbon rim wheels. And, interestingly, if you ask them about, for example, the braking performance of their wheelsets, and which pads are being used, some of them actually stare at you sort of blank-faced. I think they honestly don't know, mumble something that makes no sense, and then turn away-----which is sort of disconcerting to me (disclaimer: I own no carbon wheels as of yet, as I am happy with and enjoy the personal success I have with alu wheels, and this is no matter when I am climbing something like the Altamont on Paris Mtn (in S.C.) during the summers when I am back in the States, or if I am here at home in Europe for the rest of the year riding either Flanders/N. France roads and/or heading down for weekend jaunts to ride the alps). I'm just trying to say that carbon does not present to me an actual advantage, at the moment, over anything aluminum currently offers, no matter the terrain. Still, one day, I imagine as carbon prices drop, I'll have to consider them, even if it is just for the strength they provide in rim depth vs comparable alu deep rims. I just hope stuff like this worrying about braking heat generated, blowing tubes/tires, melting rim strips (I'd neve heard that one before), or what and which pads (black vs yellow vs whatever) are being used, etc., etc, are all solved by then ;-)


Again, excuse if I am off-base with this post in this thread.


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## cxwrench

looigi said:


> Only if it defies the laws of physics. Heat is equal to the kinetic and potential energy being dissipated, nothing else. Resultant temperature is almost entirely dependent on the thermal properties of the rim material and its shape. For example, aluminum has a higher specific heat and is much more thermally conductive than CF so peak temperatures will be lower.


The black pads have to generate the same amount of heat according to the laws of physics, but they don't have to hold it for any particular length of time. They can be much better at dissipating the heat generated, thus they don't heat the rims at much. Right? This is why different manufacturers use different pad formulations and why most have gone away from the yellow pads. And why SS has come out w/ the black prince pads...right?


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## skinewmexico

This thread just screams for carbon discs.


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## redondoaveb

Jay Strongbow said:


> Yes, they alloy would be hot. That's the advantage. The alloy absorbs the heat instead of sending it directly to the tube.
> 
> Trying to dispute the science of this is just a red herring anyway. No rational person would argue that alloy and carbon rims react the same to heavy braking or that the potential for blowing a tire due to heat is the same.


So the aluminum gets too hot to the touch on the outside and obviously is just as hot on the inside but it doesn't transfer any of that heat to the tube. Is there some kind of magical barrier between the tube and rim to keep the heat off the tube?

I'm just giving my results of what I found when I did the test. I've put over 15,000 miles on my carbon clinchers (almost 10,000 last year alone) and probably a third of that was climbing some of the toughest climbs in So. Cal. (yes, we have some HC and Cat 1 climbs here) and have never had any issues. 

Not disputing the science because I don't know the science. Just giving real world results. Can you do the same?


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## robt57

skinewmexico said:


> This thread just screams for carbon discs.



Funny you should say that. My full intention upon getting the Sora Disc SL4 Roubaix was [after pulling the Sora in favor of a 7800 Group [second day] which came off my Strong to make it a SS] was use my 29er wheels until I shopped all the nice carbon rims and hubs, thinking no brake interface to the rim, perfect.

Except it became clear it was already stiffer and rode stouter than expected by a margin and going further in that direction with 38-50mm rim was out. Wound up using Pacenti SL25s.


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## Jay Strongbow

redondoaveb said:


> So the aluminum gets too hot to the touch on the outside and obviously is just as hot on the inside but it doesn't transfer any of that heat to the tube.


No one has said none of the heat gets transferred to the tube with alloy. Just that more gets absorbed on the way there.


Not sure why you'd say "obviously is just as hot on the inside". Heat changes as it leaves it's source and passes though something. Nothing obvious about that at all.


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## redondoaveb

Jay Strongbow said:


> No one has said none of the heat gets transferred to the tube with alloy. Just that more gets absorbed on the way there.
> 
> 
> Not sure why you'd say "obviously is just as hot on the inside". Heat changes as it leaves it's source and passes though something. Nothing obvious about that at all.


I could give an example. I have an aluminum pan that I use when bbq'ing. When I take something off the bbq and put it in the pan, the bottom of the pan immediately becomes too hot to touch. The pan isn't much thinner than an aluminum brake track. I (assume) the inside of a brake track is getting hot in the same way. That's my science  

That reminds me, I think I'll bbq tonight. Steak, yum!


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## mfdemicco

skinewmexico said:


> This thread just screams for carbon discs.


Someone already tried carbon rotors. They didn't work too well. That's probably not what you meant though. Brifters don't work with hydraulic brakes and mechanical disc brakes are heavier and don't stop as well as hydraulics. Plus disc brakes are heavier than caliper brakes. They are also a maintenance headache.


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## cxwrench

mfdemicco said:


> Someone already tried carbon rotors. They didn't work too well. That's probably not what you meant though. *Brifters don't work with hydraulic brakes* and mechanical disc brakes are heavier and don't stop as well as hydraulics. Plus disc brakes are heavier than caliper brakes. They are also a maintenance headache.


What do you mean by this? And they're called 'shifters'. Both SRAM & Shimano make shifters that work hydro brakes.


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## mfdemicco

cxwrench said:


> What do you mean by this? And they're called 'shifters'. Both SRAM & Shimano make shifters that work hydro brakes.


The late Sheldon Brown used to call these integrated brake and shift levers "brifters." 

Didn't know this. I stand corrected. How much weight do you think disk brakes would add, assuming the frame and fork weight would increase too?

Mavic seems to have solved the heat and braking problems.


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## cxwrench

mfdemicco said:


> Didn't know this. I stand corrected. How much weight do you think disk brakes would add, assuming the frame and fork weight would increase too?
> 
> Mavic seems to have solved the heat and braking problems.


Mavic hasn't solved anything...

Heat? Really? Free hub engineering? No. Spoke material? Don't make me laugh. Aerodynamics? They completely ignore this w/ the except of the track wheels.


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## mfdemicco

cxwrench said:


> Mavic hasn't solved anything...
> 
> Heat? Really? Free hub engineering? No. Spoke material? Don't make me laugh. Aerodynamics? They completely ignore this w/ the except of the track wheels.


How does using an aluminum liner and high temperature epoxy not solve the heat problem, plus special surface treatment to improve braking not address this issue?

http://www.bikemag.com/pavedmag/mavic-rolls-out-its-first-carbon-clincher-wheelset/


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## cxwrench

mfdemicco said:


> How does using an aluminum liner and high temperature epoxy not solve the heat problem, plus special surface treatment to improve braking not address this issue?
> 
> Mavic Rolls Out Its First Carbon Clincher Wheelset - BIKE Magazine


Have you actually ridden these or are you basing your post solely off the information in bike magazine?


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## mfdemicco

cxwrench said:


> Have you actually ridden these or are you basing your post solely off the information in bike magazine?


Basing it on the Mavic video contained in the article that shows reasonable engineering data. My point is not to endorse Mavic (or Shimano), but to point out that a hybrid rim design (alloy rim bed, carbon fiber cap) seems to address the heat and braking issues that full carbon fiber rims have; that's all. I have no data or experience on the reliability of these wheels.


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## deviousalex

mfdemicco said:


> Basing it on the Mavic video contained in the article that shows reasonable engineering data.


Your mistake here is that assuming that any truthful engineering "data" comes out of a marketing video.


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## mimason

mfdemicco said:


> Basing it on the Mavic video contained in the article that shows reasonable engineering data. My point is not to endorse Mavic (or Shimano), but to point out that a hybrid rim design (alloy rim bed, carbon fiber cap) seems to address the heat and braking issues that full carbon fiber rims have; that's all. I have no data or experience on the reliability of these wheels.


A buddy of mine was riding Levi's Fondo and delaminated his ca. 2012 C24 carbon clinchers with the aluminum brake track. Clearly a lot of rider error involved but....


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## MMsRepBike

mimason said:


> A buddy of mine was riding Levi's Fondo and delaminated his ca. 2012 C24 carbon clinchers with the aluminum brake track. Clearly a lot of rider error involved but....


I would love to see a picture.


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## coachboyd

The melting temperature of 6061 aluminum is 1090 degrees Fahrenheit. It would be pretty hard to reach those kinds of temperatures by braking alone, unless you are descending inside a volcano.


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## ibericb

coachboyd said:


> The melting temperature of 6061 aluminum is 1090 degrees Fahrenheit. It would be pretty hard to reach those kinds of temperatures by braking alone, unless you are descending inside a volcano.


Do you need to reach Al alloy melting temp to cause delamination of the C-fiber composite? At what temperatures do the resins used to build typical wheel composites begin to decompose?


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## skinewmexico

mfdemicco said:


> Basing it on the Mavic video contained in the article that shows reasonable engineering data. My point is not to endorse Mavic (or Shimano), but to point out that a hybrid rim design (alloy rim bed, carbon fiber cap) seems to address the heat and braking issues that full carbon fiber rims have; that's all. I have no data or experience on the reliability of these wheels.


I'm not seeing how this concept is any different from the Shimano C42, or HED Jet Express 5. Both of which have been around forever.


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## mfdemicco

skinewmexico said:


> I'm not seeing how this concept is any different from the Shimano C42, or HED Jet Express 5. Both of which have been around forever.


True, but the Mavic rim has a thin aluminum insert rather than a separate aluminum rim bonded to a carbon fiber cap. The braking surface is carbon fiber.


----------



## deviousalex

mfdemicco said:


> True, but the Mavic rim has a thin aluminum insert rather than a separate aluminum rim bonded to a carbon fiber cap. The braking surface is carbon fiber.


That's not a plus.....


----------



## spdntrxi

mimason said:


> A buddy of mine was riding Levi's Fondo and delaminated his ca. 2012 C24 carbon clinchers with the aluminum brake track. Clearly a lot of rider error involved but....


I just picked up 2014 C24s...for Levi's . I didn't need to read that.


----------



## deviousalex

spdntrxi said:


> I just picked up 2014 C24s...for Levi's . I didn't need to read that.


I wouldn't ride 16/20 spoked wheels on those roads. A friend of mine also had his C24s fail for Levi's but this was I think the 7800 version. The metal plate that's under each spoke just popped off or something, not quite sure.


----------



## ibericb

spdntrxi said:


> I just picked up 2014 C24s...for Levi's . I didn't need to read that.


Then don't read this either.


----------



## deviousalex

ibericb said:


> Then don't read this either.


C24s are an alloy braking surface.


----------



## ibericb

deviousalex said:


> C24s are an alloy braking surface.


Yep. And where does the heat of braking go?


----------



## tvad

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

Better to just be safe and take a cab on Levi's Grand Fondo.


----------



## robt57

ibericb said:


> Yep. And where does the heat of braking go?



How soon after the EPO dose?


----------



## ibericb

tvad said:


> "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"
> 
> Better to just be safe and take a cab on Levi's Grand Fondo.


I think the message should be if you ride steep descents with carbon rims, know what you're doing. I suspect many more have done it without problem than have experienced any kind of wheel damage. Those that had wheel damage in the past couple of years could probably be traced to rider braking technique. Al alloy is just more forgiving, or needs less attention than does carbon composite.


----------



## deviousalex

tvad said:


> "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"
> 
> Better to just be safe and take a cab on Levi's Grand Fondo.


Two years ago I had Levi fly by getting motorpaced (literally by a motorcycle), does that count?


----------



## spdntrxi

I did it with enve 3.4 last year.. This year I can chose from C24s or Roval SLX


----------



## tvad

ibericb said:


> I think the message should be if you ride steep descents with carbon rims, know what you're doing. I suspect many more have done it without problem than have experienced any kind of wheel damage. Those that had wheel damage in the past couple of years could probably be traced to rider braking technique. Al alloy is just more forgiving, or needs less attention than does carbon composite.


How about: Inexperienced Rider + Mountains = Alloy Rims.

Definition of Inexperienced Rider: one who rides the brakes on descents.

In defense of the riders, both inexperienced and experienced, these large organized rides are sometimes overbooked or clumped with riders, which makes descending at normal speeds nearly impossible...thus the necessity to ride the brakes.


----------



## ibericb

tvad said:


> How about: Inexperienced Rider + Mountains = Alloy Rims.
> 
> Definition of Inexperienced Rider: one who rides the brakes on descents.
> 
> In defense of the riders, both inexperienced and experienced, these large organized rides are sometimes overbooked or clumped with riders, which makes descending at normal speeds nearly impossible...thus the necessity to ride the brakes.


Sounds about right.

It's a recurring theme with carbon composites in general - they are wonderful materials, but they aren't very forgiving for the negligent or inattentive, or in this case the inexperienced.


----------



## ibericb

spdntrxi said:


> I did it with enve 3.4 last year.. This year I can chose from C24s or Roval SLX


Enve has done a lot of testing, including specifically brake track testing. They even released a video showing how they do the brake track testing. Pretty impressive machine.


----------



## spdntrxi

tvad said:


> How about: Inexperienced Rider + Mountains = Alloy Rims.
> 
> Definition of Inexperienced Rider: one who rides the brakes on descents.
> 
> In defense of the riders, both inexperienced and experienced, these large organized rides are sometimes overbooked or clumped with riders, which makes descending at normal speeds nearly impossible...thus the necessity to ride the brakes.


The latter was my case.. I'm nothing like I was when I was young but I can still go down those mountains... Levi's for me really sucked in that their was a rather bad accident before the famous bridge that required a lengthy road closure (for helicopters).. this caused a huge amount of traffic for the descent, which left me riding my brakes trying to avoid people... not to mention lots of volunteers trying to slow people down. In the end I wish I was on Al clinchers.


----------



## tvad

spdntrxi said:


> The latter was my case.. I'm nothing like I was when I was young but I can still go down those mountains... Levi's for me really sucked in that their was a rather bad accident before the famous bridge that required a lengthy road closure (for helicopters).. this caused a huge amount of traffic for the descent, which left me riding my brakes trying to avoid people... not to mention lots of volunteers trying to slow people down.


Good example of the point I was making, which is that on many of these big organized rides, it doesn't matter how experienced one might be riding down mountains at 40-50mph in 90 degree heat. When we're in groups of hundreds of riders and we're forced to ride the brakes constantly on our way down 9 mile descents, we're going to be heating up our rims and brake pads beyond our normal routines. In that scenario, "laying off the brakes" isn't possible, and it's probably wise to use alloy rims despite our belief that vast experience will allow us to minimize heat build-up on our bling-y carbon rims.


----------



## voss

I found this video on you tube. Notice the temp gauge reaching 192 degrees at the rim. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETQpEXfJy-4.......and this article gives real concern over tyre pressures at that temp. Carbon Wheel Technology and Testing. On this you tube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2aliE626vc one comment by a blooger Calvin writes that I will never pump my tyres to 160psi so no problems but tell the law of physics that then it comes to the conservation of energy. With physics in mind are these testers testing a 60 kg rider or and 85KG one when they are applying loads to the rim. It would also be an idea to categorise descents as they do ascents. Food for thought.


----------



## tvad

voss said:


> ...one comment by a *blooger *Calvin writes...


That's funny.


----------



## OldChipper

One thing that I think people may be neglecting is the phase-change enthalpy (the heat required to break down the inter-molecular bonds that hold a material in solid form) of the brake pad material. I believe that brake pads for carbon wheels are designed to melt/ablate to help dissipate the heat buildup. Different materials can have radically different phase-change enthalpies and therefore "absorb" or dissipate more heat than others in an application like this. This is one reason (the melting/ablation) that carbon brake pads don't last nearly as long as pads designed for aluminum rims. I assume this is at least partly what's behind the different rim temperature results since, when melting, a material doesn't start to heat up further until all of the material is melted; any additional heat input just goes to melting more material. Same reason why a pot of boiling water stays at 100C until all the water is boiled off, no matter how high you turn up the heat. 

As far as carbon rims and hills goes, as I've said elsewhere and as others have said here, carbons rims are used with success on descents of some of the steepest grades in the world. All it takes is experience/knowledge in proper braking (yes, grab-and-release does work, even on steep grades, you just grab/release faster/more often) and descending at speed.


----------



## voss

OldChipper said:


> One thing that I think people may be neglecting is the phase-change enthalpy (the heat required to break down the inter-molecular bonds that hold a material in solid form) of the brake pad material.]
> 
> They are starting to make improvements. SwissStop Introduces Black Prince Carbon Rim Brake Pads, Yellow No Longer the Leader And at least now you do not have the issue of cleaning the yellow pad dust off the rims due to ablation. It would be interesting if they could make the pads slightly larger to incorporate some form of like copper conductive strands and intergrate/connect it with the aluminium rims brakes as some form of heat sink.If Nissan GTR are using nitrogen in their inner tubes for a more stable heat expansion when compared to air, it would not be a big stretch for us to do the same given we use co2 cannisters. In boiler plumbing systems they use mini expansion relief valve, Maybe a presta relief valve that release air when the pressure hits 160. Basalt braking surface have been a leap forward in reducing rim temps but given the heat dissipation properties of ceramic why not use more ceramic dust in the resin mix or a combination of both. The newer wider rims promote lower tyre pressure. But I fail to see any empirical data which justifies claims by manufacturers that they have the latest and greatest braking solution, campy 3 diamont braking surface for example.
> 
> [/As far as carbon rims and hills goes, as I've said elsewhere and as others have said here, carbons rims are used with success on descents of some of the steepest grades in the world. All it takes is experience/knowledge in proper braking (yes, grab-and-release does work, even on steep grades, you just grab/release faster/more often) and descending at speed.]
> 
> I have seen this argued on a number of cases, cadence braking makes sense to me but as for alternate braking, not sure how that helps one given that your reducing the effective braking surface by area 50% when scrubbing of a given amount of thermal energy, all things being equal. If you look at this video 12.5 mins in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjWOl2aCWOk....not as if they don't brake at all!!


----------



## voss

The future of the smart wheel EB14: Lightweight Makes SmartWheels to Sense Pressure, Brake Track Temperature & More but once again crazy prices!


----------



## kbwh

I do some alpine climbing and descending each summer. Wheels of choice are Campag Shamal Ultra 2-way fit, with tubeless tires. The only carbon clincer I'd consider would be the Enve 3.4, but they're twice the price and still need a tube. Interesting to learn about delamination issues with the Shimano C24 types.
I like safety margins. I don't ride my brakes a lot. That said, So. Cal. canyons are steeper than French alps.


----------



## MoPho

kbwh said:


> I do some alpine climbing and descending each summer. Wheels of choice are Campag Shamal Ultra 2-way fit, with tubeless tires. The only carbon clincer I'd consider would be the Enve 3.4, but they're twice the price and still need a tube. Interesting to learn about delamination issues with the Shimano C24 types.
> I like safety margins. I don't ride my brakes a lot. That said, So. Cal. canyons are steeper than French alps.



I have over 13k miles of SoCal Canyons and 8k of NorCal Hills on "cheap" carbon clinchers, non issue











.


----------



## Eric_H

Please, don't go quoting that product copy review by Caley Fretz as anything near scientific. First off, he's not anywhere near a technical expert, look at how the article is written to be dramatic, not technical. Second, at the time of that writing he was living Annecy, France and probably having lunch at Mavic's HQ every day. So there was certainly a LOT of bias in the article.

I remember when the above was published on their site and they still had a comment section enabled. I took the review and Caley's impartiality into question and Neal Rogers came on there and accused me of being a "cyber bully". My interpretation was that Neal did not like me pointing out the obvious holes in the "review" of a major advertisers' product.

And really, who buys Mavic these days? Stuck in 2000, using a lousy freehub design, fat spokes, and narrow rims because they are too cheap to invest in new tooling.


----------



## voss

tvad said:


> "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"
> 
> Better to just be safe and take a cab on Levi's Grand Fondo.


And who made you housewife of the year


----------



## tvad

voss said:


> And who made you housewife of the year.


That's funny. Good job.


----------



## voss

I was curious ,if one applied a silver (cooking) foil to the inner tube channel. Given that silver shiny surfaces reflect heat, would it be safer?


----------



## cxwrench

voss said:


> I was courius if we applied a simple silver heart foil to the *break tract* would we be safer?


The what? What are you _breaking_? And are you talking about a _tract of land_ or the area on your rim contacted by the _BRAKE_ pads, commonly referred to as the _brake TRACK_?


----------



## voss

cxwrench said:


> The what? What are you _breaking_? And are you talking about a _tract of land_ or the area on your rim contacted by the _BRAKE_ pads, commonly referred to as the _brake TRACK_?


I was referring to the brake U channel between the braking surfaces. In order to reflect back the heat into the rim and maybe reduce the heat transfer to the inner tube ( maybe like 5 degrees or so) then line the channel with some kitchen foil for example spray glued into place. The before and after temp results could be checked by these sensors TMC Hallcrest - Temperature Triggered Colour Changing Technology and Graphics


----------



## tvad




----------



## cxwrench

voss said:


> I was referring to the brake U channel between the braking surfaces. In order to reflect back the heat into the rim and maybe reduce the heat transfer to the inner tube ( maybe like 5 degrees or so) then line the channel with some kitchen foil for example spray glued into place. The before and after temp results could be checked by these sensors TMC Hallcrest - Temperature Triggered Colour Changing Technology and Graphics


5 degrees? You really think that would matter? And what do you do for a living...that might possibly involve bicycles, composites, butyl inner tubes, and temperature/pressure that would lead you to come up w/ an idea like this?


----------



## voss

cxwrench said:


> 5 degrees? You really think that would matter? And what do you do for a living...that might possibly involve bicycles, composites, butyl inner tubes, and temperature/pressure that would lead you to come up w/ an idea like this?


Automotive and construction arena! The idea of foil would not work. On the right track but I should have been thinking of conduction and not radiated heat. A product that insulates the inner tube from the transfer of heat from the rim. Which then leads me onto calcium silicate sprays used in the automotive industry(exhaust manifolds) or in the construction industry (heating pipes e.g. Aremco products) something without a significant weight penalty and relatively inexpensive,easy to use and off the shelf. To be used specifically only in the brake track area.

I accept there is no one solution to the problems associated with carbon clinchers and even if the temp drop is minimal it contributes to the overall design! A little research doesn't hurt. For example ,if I know that temp. at the rim can reach as much as 200 degrees, why on earth would I buy a clincher which only uses 180 degree tg resin (nearly did that).

As a keen amateur cyclist who does 200km sportives and 300 km day trips, do not want to be in some village in the middle of nowhere thinking what went wrong!!


----------



## voss

tvad said:


>


You make me laugh! Too much of that going on that day given my spelling mistakes. Some b***td stole my bike. I figure go straight for carbon clinchers this time but so do not have Zipp Firecrest money...lolllll.:17:


----------



## ziscwg

mfdemicco said:


> Someone already tried carbon rotors. They didn't work too well. That's probably not what you meant though. Brifters don't work with hydraulic brakes and mechanical disc brakes are heavier and don't stop as well as hydraulics. Plus disc brakes are heavier than caliper brakes. They are also a maintenance headache.





cxwrench said:


> What do you mean by this? And they're called 'shifters'. Both SRAM & Shimano make shifters that work hydro brakes.


Oh no, CX caught you using the B word. It's gonna get ugly.


----------



## ziscwg

deviousalex said:


> Your mistake here is that assuming that any truthful engineering "data" comes out of a marketing video.


You cannot use "marketing" and "truth" in the same sentence. They are so opposite, they annihilate each other.


----------



## ziscwg

OK,
Everyone dump their current bikes and get properly designed disc brake bikes. My stock in Shimano and SRAM will love you for it


----------



## metoou2

Eric_H said:


> First off, he's not anywhere near a technical expert, look at how the article is written to be dramatic, not technical.


Caley is about as close to being a 'tech' anything about like I'm close to being a Victoria's Secret model. His articles read like he was consulting with an 8th grader. Now old Neal, I don't know, he might be a Victoria's Secret model.


----------



## voss

ziscwg said:


> Oh no, CX caught you using the B word. It's gonna get ugly.


Brake plus shifting makes them Brifters. Just because you argue differently does not make it so


----------



## jmorgan

voss said:


> Brake plus shifting makes them Brifters. Just because you argue differently does not make it so


Please point me to a manufacturer's website where it says "brifters". Just because you argue differently does not make it so.


----------



## voss

metoou2 said:


> Caley is about as close to being a 'tech' anything about like I'm close to being a Victoria's Secret model. His articles read like he was consulting with an 8th grader. Now old Neal, I don't know, he might be a Victoria's Secret model.


As many posts that I read on forums, limited empirical data, I have yet to see any real account of what it is like to ride carbon clinchers day to day. At the same time I will do a direct comparison with alloy clinchers. When my dogma was stolen my wife said to me you have a blank cheque book. Like everything in life there is aways a condition, what you buy bike wise you buy exactly the same for me. All or nothing scenario. So that scum bag that stole my bike might have done the best thing ever for me. And I can not simply buy that which i loved. My secretary and every cycle club and every Police station is chasing that bike. So I can not buy the same. So I ordered 2 F8, if they are half as good as the dogma god bless Jaguar which I also own. Ultegra Di2 with dura ace cranks, the only reason dura ace is because Ultegra grey is not that appealing. The rest pretty much a muchness. I love Campy but compared to shimano I always feel like I am ripped off.Pretty cool to be clicking buttons as you exercise on Di2. So wheel wise, i have placed an order for 50mm carbon pro clinchers from Yishun. My other half gets Campy carbon alloys And I am not interested in having race day wheels simply because I do not race.


----------



## voss

I am a person without a budget who happens to be the best critique of them all Hold this space for 5 weeks, I will answer the questions with video evidence.


----------



## mfdemicco

jmorgan said:


> Please point me to a manufacturer's website where it says "brifters". Just because you argue differently does not make it so.


Shimano calls them "Dual Control Levers." Calling them shifters is an imprecise term. To do so includes down tube and bar end shifters. The term "brifter," while a slang term, is actually more precise in the context of what type of shifter is being referred to.


----------



## Trek_5200

j73 said:


> I have a all carbon clincher FSA sl-k wheelset with yellow swissstop pads that came with. Today first time using on a long steep descend with curves, and btw being a wet road from the rain last night. My bike handling skills are not the best, I was using the brakes a lot just to have a constant speed of 15-20mph which if I did not brake as much I will easily reach 30-40mph. I'm 125lbs which I don't think give really a big load for trying to stop, but I notice that when I was trying to ride on the brakes and with the combination of on and off I was smelling burned rubber. Guessing the pads are overheating with rims or other way around. Nothing catastrophic happened, and wheelset were okay I guess...I don't see any changes in the braking surface as of now. My question is, are these normal to be like this when being use on steep hills or I'm just braking too much? I read about threads that carbon clinchers tend to warp or even fail when it overheats. Do I have to improve my braking skills?


Carbon wheels don't dissipate heat as well as Alloy wheels but some carbon rims are better than others. That said, if you ride your brakes down a steep hill you will generate heat on any wheel and a good rider needs to be cognizant of this fact


----------



## spdntrxi

mfdemicco said:


> Shimano calls them "Dual Control Levers." Calling them shifters is an imprecise term. To do so includes down tube and bar end shifters. The term "brifter," while a slang term, is actually more precise in the context of what type of shifter is being referred to.


slang is never more precise... Dual Control Levers it is then.


----------



## duriel

voss said:


> So I ordered 2 F8, if they are half as good as the dogma god bless Jaguar which I also own.


I want to see the pictures of the tin foil brakes and also the tin foil helmet cover!


----------



## ziscwg

voss said:


> Brake plus shifting makes them Brifters. Just because you argue differently does not make it so





jmorgan said:


> Please point me to a manufacturer's website where it says "brifters". Just because you argue differently does not make it so.


Agreed.............. as I don't know any mfg that calls them, them, them...ahh, the "B" word.


----------



## ziscwg

voss said:


> Brake plus shifting makes them Brifters. Just because you argue differently does not make it so





jmorgan said:


> Please point me to a manufacturer's website where it says "brifters". Just because you argue differently does not make it so.





mfdemicco said:


> Shimano calls them "Dual Control Levers." Calling them shifters is an imprecise term. To do so includes down tube and bar end shifters. The term "brifter," while a slang term, is actually more precise in the context of what type of shifter is being referred to.





spdntrxi said:


> slang is never more precise... Dual Control Levers it is then.


making up a word to refer to something is never more precise. You could get away with an acronym. So, DCL is fine. However, you limit your audience just as much as you would with the "B" word. 

When ever I hear the "B" word, I think Starbucks and coffee. It comes from that whole "barista" or whatever word they call the people who make your coffee. Actually, they don't even make your coffee anymore. They push a button and pour milk.


----------



## tvad

duriel said:


> I want to see the pictures of the tin foil brakes and also the* tin foil helmet cover*!
















You're welcome.


----------



## deviousalex

voss said:


> My secretary and every cycle club and every Police station is chasing that bike. So I can not buy the same. So I ordered 2 F8, if they are half as good as the dogma god bless Jaguar which I also own.


Is the other F8 for your secretary?

So paying $5k for a carbon frameset is worth it over a $2k frameset but spending another $1k to get non-OEM wheels isn't so you order them from Yishun?

Or are you going for the "it's not a dentist bike" because it has OEM wheels and Ultegra group on it?


----------



## voss

deviousalex said:


> Is the other F8 for your secretary?
> 
> So paying $5k for a carbon frameset is worth it over a $2k frameset but spending another $1k to get non-OEM wheels isn't so you order them from Yishun?
> 
> Or are you going for the "it's not a dentist bike" because it has OEM wheels and Ultegra group on it?


The frame is more a personal choice and the heart of a bike and I agree that with F8, expensive. Pinarello geometry works for me so I am going with what I already know.

Carbon wheels on the other hand are an unknown entity to me and I would not want to start of my experience paying circa $2800 dollars for a set of bora ultras. You do not often find that many long term reviews on carbon wheel sets and let's face it, the tech is developing. For example, I saw one feedback on a purchase saying, great set of wheels but I have not tried them yet! What sort of feed back is that.

As for the groupset of choice it was based more on a value engineering exercise. Again a personal choice. Ultegra Di2 costs the same as mechanical Dura Ace but with real world benefits. It is hard to ignore considered opinions on the subject. PICKING THE BEST GROUPSET FOR YOU AND YOUR ROAD BIKE | In The Know Cycling.

So you are right it is not a dentist bike but a bike that I will enjoy exercising on every morning on budget relative to me. The question you have to ask yourself, even if I could afford the Dura Ace Di2 or the Bora Ultra Two wheelset, would I want to? When did enjoying a sport become so expensive that you had to keep up with the Jones?

The other F8 is for the wife. She loves cycling as much as I do.


----------



## voss

Eric_H said:


> Please, don't go quoting that product copy review by Caley Fretz as anything near scientific.


More scientific:
Wheel Performance
Cycling Power Lab

and less scientific but from a manufacturers invested perspective.
November Bicycles: Race smart. - Carbon Wheels Terms and Conditions

I still think he has a point.


----------



## voss

Reflective heat led me on to tin foil which led me on to conductive heat which led me on to an insulation barrier for the inner tube which led me on to calcium silicate spray barriers which led me on to real world products and applications to achieve this protection. Of which a multi -million dollar industry revolves around.

Sarcasam and cynicsim might buy you your joke but only gets you so far. Ignorance is bliss!


----------



## aclinjury

has any carbon wheel maker attempt to embed ceramic into the brake tracks? and then make the track a bit coarse for that ultimate bite.


----------



## deviousalex

aclinjury said:


> has any carbon wheel maker attempt to embed ceramic into the brake tracks? and then make the track a bit coarse for that ultimate bite.


Doesn't ceramic hold heat longer? Hence the idea behind pizza stones.


----------



## voss

aclinjury said:


> has any carbon wheel maker attempt to embed ceramic into the brake tracks? and then make the track a bit coarse for that ultimate bite.


Campy have gone with exposing the fibres on the brake surface with their new diamant braking surface for better traction. 

3Diamant? - Wheels Campagnolo

This was an interesting comment by Zipp

"_The only caution is when putting them on for the first time, you shouldclean the carbon tubular or alloy rim with a Scotch Brite® pad designedfor woodworking. Get the finest available pad, the green level, andgo to work with that dipped in Acetone. On the part of the rim wherethe brake pad touches, work it over with the pad dipped in Acetone, letit dry and go ride! (Acetone is great stuff…use it to clean offthe old brake pad material and loosen and soften the old tubular glue.)_Bill Vance
ZIPP Speed Weaponry​
Read more at Technical Q&A with Lennard Zinn - Carbon Questions - VeloNews.com

Mavic did go down that route but seemed to have problems with their Mavic Open Pro ceramic wheelsets

http://roadcyclinguk.com/news/racing-news/mavic-open-pro-ceramic-rim-long-term-report.html#S1Z3MJYZMrzzPi0t.97

Apparently it wears the brake pads quicker, tends to flake off and provides inconsistent braking overall but helps with hydroplaning in the wet


----------



## deviousalex

voss said:


> Apparently it wears the brake pads quicker, tends to flake off and provides inconsistent braking overall but helps with hydroplaning in the wet


You can't hydroplane on a bicycle. 

Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Glossary Ho-Hy



> When an automobile is driven fast on wet roads, especially if it has worn-out tires, a cushion of water can build up under the tires, preventing the rubber from contacting the road. This is very scary and dangerous, because it leads to a total loss of traction.
> Fortunately for cyclists, this cannot happen to a bicycle; they don't go fast enough, nor have a large enough contact patch, nor do the tires run at a low enough pressure to make hydroplaning possible.


----------



## mimason

voss said:


> The frame is more a personal choice and the heart of a bike and I agree that with F8, expensive. Pinarello geometry works for me so I am going with what I already know.
> 
> Carbon wheels on the other hand are an unknown entity to me and I would not want to start of my experience paying circa $2800 dollars for a set of bora ultras. You do not often find that many long term reviews on carbon wheel sets and let's face it, the tech is developing. For example, I saw one feedback on a purchase saying, great set of wheels but I have not tried them yet! What sort of feed back is that.
> 
> As for the groupset of choice it was based more on a value engineering exercise. Again a personal choice. Ultegra Di2 costs the same as mechanical Dura Ace but with real world benefits. It is hard to ignore considered opinions on the subject. PICKING THE BEST GROUPSET FOR YOU AND YOUR ROAD BIKE | In The Know Cycling.
> 
> So you are right it is not a dentist bike but a bike that I will enjoy exercising on every morning on budget relative to me. The question you have to ask yourself, even if I could afford the Dura Ace Di2 or the Bora Ultra Two wheelset, would I want to? When did enjoying a sport become so expensive that you had to keep up with the Jones?
> 
> The other F8 is for the wife. She loves cycling as much as I do.


I agree with the logic of frame and components but not sure about wheel logic. I think wheels/tires/tubes are #2 in the equasion. Wheels change the bike ride and feel more than any other component(sans frame of course). I've been on Enve 65s for 30k+ miles and swear by them. Still true and CK bearings are original and smooth. 

I'm sure there are some solid values in the wheel alternatives but If Im riding with my safety on the line at high speeds, I have no problem paying more for something from a company that has a good reputation, track record and good warranty policy.

I hope you like your F8. Im loving mine.


----------



## voss

deviousalex said:


> You can't hydroplane on a bicycle.


Sheldon is right but I wasn't referring the tyre contact with the road ( I had already read his report). I was referring to the initial scrub off where the brake pad comes into contact with the rim in wet conditions. So I called it hydro planing as opposed to aqua planing, same thing. It makes sense to me that a rougher surface would facilitate braking in wet conditions


----------



## cxwrench

voss said:


> Brake plus shifting makes them Brifters. Just because you argue differently does not make it so


The derp is strong...


----------



## cxwrench

deviousalex said:


> You can't hydroplane on a bicycle.
> 
> Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Glossary Ho-Hy


He's talking about brakes not tires, and it definitely happens w/ pads. 


ETA voss just beat me to it while i was getting coffee!


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## voss

cxwrench said:


> The derp is strong...


I had to look up the urban dictionary for that one.


----------



## cxwrench

voss said:


> I had to look up the urban dictionary for that one.


I hit that thing all the time, it's so hard to keep up w/ the stuff the kids come up with!


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## voss

Three weeks in still waiting for Yishun to deliver the wheelset. I was so set after my research for Di2, my wife ended up getting a Fuji with Di2. It has no god damn soul. It shifts to perfectly and for my big fingers awkward as f**k and that is without gloves. Rather then feeling part of the machine, I felt like I was simply pushing buttons. I was not impressed, way overated. The dogma F8 frame arrived today, the black and red. After my experience with Di2, I decided to go for a mix of super record brifters and Record for the rest. OMG Campagnolo are leagues ahead of Shimano. I would have sex with Campagnolo bike parts. You pay a premium but by god it is worth it. Compared to shimano ridicuously expensive, the only way I can compare it to is dating a supermodel. Apparently you can not use the super record bottom bracket with the record crank. Apparently the record crank requires a water seal the super record does not. Campy are big into warning you about that. Just wish Ribbles posted it on their site. Studying the record Crank it feels like a piece of tin when you ping the rings, everything about it smacks of brilliant engineering at a weight benefit. Super record at 185lbs probably rip the titantium axle to shreds for what 40 grams. At some point you have to give up the weight weenie ghost. But bless god loves a trier. My peers were right, you got to love the Bling factor.


----------



## K Dub Cycle

Continental has a warning regarding carbon clinchers that came with my latest GP4000S II clinchers. 
Here is a basic summary:
1. Do not use latex or lightweight butyl tubes. 
2. Use Easy Tape rim strips even on fully sealed rims without spoke holes drilled to protect from the direct effects of heat. 
3. Optimize braking technique. 
I agree with #1 & 3, but have never heard or read that rim strips "protect the tube from the direct effects of heat" until reading this warning.
Here is a link to the warning:
http://www.conti-online.com/www/dow...rvice_en/downloads/download/warningnotice.pdf


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## deviousalex

K Dub Cycle said:


> Continental has a warning regarding carbon clinchers that came with my latest GP4000S II clinchers.
> Here is a basic summary:
> 1. Do not use latex or lightweight butyl tubes.
> 2. Use Easy Tape rim strips even on fully sealed rims without spoke holes drilled to protect from the direct effects of heat.
> 3. Optimize braking technique.
> I agree with #1 & 3, but have never heard or read that rim strips "protect the tube from the direct effects of heat" until reading this warning.
> Here is a link to the warning:
> http://www.conti-online.com/www/dow...rvice_en/downloads/download/warningnotice.pdf


Ritchey told me the same thing about #2, even with alloy wheels.


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## mfdemicco

If I used rim strips in my Shimano wheels, the tires would be harder to mount.


----------



## voss

K Dub Cycle said:


> Continental has a warning regarding carbon clinchers that came with my latest GP4000S II clinchers.
> Here is a basic summary:
> 1. Do not use latex or lightweight butyl tubes.
> 2. Use Easy Tape rim strips even on fully sealed rims without spoke holes drilled to protect from the direct effects of heat.
> 3. Optimize braking technique.
> I agree with #1 & 3, but have never heard or read that rim strips "protect the tube from the direct effects of heat" until reading this warning.
> Here is a link to the warning:
> http://www.conti-online.com/www/dow...rvice_en/downloads/download/warningnotice.pdf


Go figure that one, that surprised me given campy are rimless!


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## ericm979

I've been using two turns of 2mil Kapton tape, and latex tubes, in my carbon clinchers.

My wheels have spoke holes and thus need rim tape.


----------



## voss

I did not want to post results until, I actually tried the carbon wheel set for myself on a real sportive. Wicklow 200. I have been two years in the waiting. The carbon wheelset is 50mm pro 23mm wide from Yishun running conti 2 at 80 rear 70 front. Brakes! Wet or dry using their pads 12% better then aluminium rims with no squeal unless descending at 50 Kpmh...yes it is that good. Pinging spokes for bedding in, not a sausage. Cornering about 18/23% better but that is a combination thingy. On a steep short descent I lock the anchors on and no fear. Unless you have the wheelset in your hand it is hard to do a comparison with say Campagnolo. I walked into the super bike store and did just that. Remember I am using high 220 degree resin and the inner tubes will explode long before I get there. Campag are about 8 to 12% better, a little more refined but certainly in no way justifies the asking price. Every cyclist knows when on the limit, all you want to ask yourself is what is my limit, not that of your wheel set and I always felt very confident. Tender hooks, I do not think so. In retrospect you had to break a few eggs to crack an omelette. The Chinese cracked a lot of them.


----------



## deviousalex

voss said:


> I did not want to post results until, I actually tried the carbon wheel set for myself on a real sportive. Wicklow 200. I have been two years in the waiting. The carbon wheelset is 50mm pro 23mm wide from Yishun running conti 2 at 80 rear 70 front. Brakes! Wet or dry using their pads 12% better then aluminium rims with no squeal unless descending at 50 Kpmh...yes it is that good. Pinging spokes for bedding in, not a sausage. Cornering about 18/23% better but that is a combination thingy. On a steep short descent I lock the anchors on and no fear. Unless you have the wheelset in your hand it is hard to do a comparison with say Campagnolo. I walked into the super bike store and did just that. Remember I am using high 220 degree resin and the inner tubes will explode long before I get there. Campag are about 8 to 12% better, a little more refined but certainly in no way justifies the asking price. Every cyclist knows when on the limit, all you want to ask yourself is what is my limit, not that of your wheel set and I always felt very confident. Tender hooks, I do not think so. In retrospect you had to break a few eggs to crack an omelette. The Chinese cracked a lot of them.


That's a lot of rambling. I'm not actually sure what you are saying here.


----------



## tvad

voss said:


> I did not want to post results until, I actually tried the carbon wheel set for myself on a real sportive. Wicklow 200. I have been two years in the waiting. The carbon wheelset is 50mm pro 23mm wide from Yishun running conti 2 at 80 rear 70 front. Brakes! Wet or dry using their pads 12% better then aluminium rims with no squeal unless descending at 50 Kpmh...yes it is that good. Pinging spokes for bedding in, not a sausage. Cornering about 18/23% better but that is a combination thingy. On a steep short descent I lock the anchors on and no fear. Unless you have the wheelset in your hand it is hard to do a comparison with say Campagnolo. I walked into the super bike store and did just that. Remember I am using high 220 degree resin and the inner tubes will explode long before I get there. Campag are about 8 to 12% better, a little more refined but certainly in no way justifies the asking price. Every cyclist knows when on the limit, all you want to ask yourself is what is my limit, not that of your wheel set and I always felt very confident. Tender hooks, I do not think so. In retrospect you had to break a few eggs to crack an omelette. The Chinese cracked a lot of them.


Derp...


----------



## voss

mfdemicco said:


> If I used rim strips in my Shimano wheels, the tires would be harder to mount.


That makes no sense at all. With or without rim tape.


----------



## voss

Deviousalex: I guess my point is that I ended up researching the bejesus out of carbon wheels that given all the scaremongering, along the way, I actually forgot to buy them until now. In my ramblings, I tried to list the points often raised over cheap chinese clinchers as opposed to well known chinese companies with an R & D department. For those penny pinching with DHL Express (120 bucks), the wheels arrived from China within 3 days, lightening fast and I had to pay taxes.


----------



## deviousalex

voss said:


> That makes no sense at all. With or without rim tape.


Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Most rims have deeper center channels. If you put a rim strip in there you decrease the depth of the center channel and effectively increase the diameter of the rim. When mounting a clincher tire you push the beads into the center of the channel to decrease the effective diameter to get the last bit on.


----------



## deviousalex

voss said:


> Deviousalex: I guess my point is that I ended up researching the bejesus out of carbon wheels that given all the scaremongering, along the way, I actually forgot to buy them until now. In my ramblings, I tried to list the points often raised over cheap chinese clinchers as opposed to well known chinese companies with an R & D department. For those penny pinching with DHL Express (120 bucks), the wheels arrived from China within 3 days, lightening fast and I had to pay taxes.


You also throw out a lot of very specific numbers in %wise without saying how you came to this conclusion. You also state that the braking is better than alloy, which doesn't give you a lot of street cred.


----------



## voss

There are now two new bikes in our household Fuji ss2.o with 35mm Oval wheels running Di2 and the Dogma F8 with 50mm carbon clinchers and Campy super Record. I fell in love with the fuji bike three years ago so I bought it for my wife. Di2 without all the cables and adjustments is a god send, it is the future but somewhere along the way they lost the tactile feel. The fuji frame is so stiff, it is uncomfortable, all the bling without the delivery. The Dogma F8 is in an entirely different league. And I mean there is no comparison. Yes the frame is stiffer over the think 2 but in all the right places. It is like having a supermodel and sending her off to the gym for a month. You have a Mamil in the seat and a race horse chomping to get out of the gates. You got to figure it will be an interesting summer. One thing for sure I will lose weight. Since the F8 on board last week, I lost 7lbs in weight. In a month or so I reckon I will lose the sack of spuds on my back. God loves a trier!


----------



## voss

deviousalex said:


> Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Most rims have deeper center channels. If you put a rim strip in there you decrease the depth of the center channel and effectively increase the diameter of the rim. When mounting a clincher tire you push the beads into the center of the channel to decrease the effective diameter to get the last bit on.


Nonsense! The clincher wheel attaches at the highest point of the rim. The rim width is not affected by the tape, it is fixed.


----------



## voss

Deviousalex: Without experience, I would initially agree with you on the braking but the fact remains. I think it is down to the rougher basalt braking surface which makes logical sense. As for percentages and street cred! As a lone wolf travelling from one end of the country to the other 320km in one day 13 hours, who are you to tell me I need street cred? As for percentages, they are estimates based on experience. Of course it is subjective but hey isn't this site all about shared experiences?


----------



## ibericb

voss said:


> Nonsense! The clincher wheel attaches at the highest point of the rim. The rim width is not affected by the tape, it is fixed.


I trust you meant clincher tire, not wheel.

It's a well known issue. It's not the rim width, it's the rim channel depth. The problem is getting the second bead of the tire over the rim edge when installing it. Decreasing the depth of the channel below the edge of the rim even by the thickness of traditional rim tapes (e.g., Velox) can, for some rims, make the installation extremely difficult as less relief exists for the first bead to allow sufficient room for the second bead to slide over the edge easily. This was a well known and widely discussed problem with, for example, the original Pacenti SL23 rims, among others. A partial solution is obtained by using thin rim tape (e.g. Pacenti or Stans).

For example, see here, and here, and ...


----------



## mfdemicco

voss said:


> Nonsense! The clincher wheel attaches at the highest point of the rim. The rim width is not affected by the tape, it is fixed.


It makes perfect sense. The rim strip increases the effective diameter of the rim bed, making it harder to mount the tire.


----------



## voss

ibericb said:


> I trust you meant clincher tire, not wheel.
> 
> It's a well known issue. It's not the rim width, it's the rim channel depth. The problem is getting the second bead of the tire over the rim edge when installing it. Decreasing the depth of the channel below the edge of the rim even by the thickness of traditional rim tapes (e.g., Velox) can, for some rims, make the installation extremely difficult as less relief exists for the first bead to allow sufficient room for the second bead to slide over the edge easily. This was a well known and widely discussed problem with, for example, the original Pacenti SL23 rims, among others. A partial solution is obtained by using thin rim tape (e.g. Pacenti or Stans).
> 
> For example, see here, and here, and ...


Rubbish


----------



## voss

mfdemicco said:


> It makes perfect sense. The rim strip increases the effective diameter of the rim bed, making it harder to mount the tire.


Complete rubbish! I have no idea what engineering college you went to, I went to Southgate. I am racking my brains to see the logic. Just do not see it! How on earth does the effective diameter of the rim change when the rim bead is at a fixed point. Just because someone else writes about it does not make them right either. Please, please enlighten me because I would be the first to say I made a mistake.


----------



## ibericb

voss said:


> Rubbish


Funny thing about an ostrich - when he has his head stuck in the sand, there's another part of his anatomy that is quite vulnerably exposed. Ignorance is not only bliss, it leaves you exposed much like the ostrich.


----------



## ibericb

It's been a frequently cited problem with a number of tubeless and tubeless-ready clincher rims.I already explained it to you, and even gave you two fairly recent threads to peruse. Apparently that did little to enlighten you. After that I have no idea why anyone would want to waste further time addressing you on the matter. Believe what you wish.


----------



## deviousalex

voss said:


> Complete rubbish! I have no idea what engineering college you went to, I went to Southgate. I am racking my brains to see the logic. Just do not see it! How on earth does the effective diameter of the rim change when the rim bead is at a fixed point. Just because someone else writes about it does not make them right either. Please, please enlighten me because I would be the first to say I made a mistake.


Oh boy, more engineer know-it-alls. As if I didn't have to deal with enough of these people at work.










Notice how the center of the rim is lower than the rest of the rim bed. If you push the tire in there you are effectively decreasing the ERD while mounting it.


----------



## ibericb

voss said:


> I am racking my brains to see the logic. Just do not see it! How on earth does the effective diameter of the rim change when the rim bead is at a fixed point. Just because someone else writes about it does not make them right either. Please, please enlighten me because I would be the first to say I made a mistake.


I'll try one more time, because you surely don't get it.

When mounting a clincher tire on a rim you are trying to get a flexible but inextensible hoop of diameter D over a larger diameter rigid flange (D +x). The only way that can be done is by using the tire's flexibility to install part of the first tire bead over the larger diameter rim edge, then moving that part of the tire bead into the rim bed channel so that the tire can be translated toward the uninstalled bead segment so that it is now positioned beyond the rim edge. For that to work there has to be enough depth in the rim bed to provide for sufficient translation of tire such that the entire smaller diameter tire bead can be installed over the larger diameter rim flange. Rim tape in the bed decreases the amount of translation possible by the thickness of the tape. If all goes well, you have the first side installed. 

Now just repeat that for the second bead. Typically that will be more difficult than the first because the first installed bead takes up some of the room in the rim bed needed to translate the tire to allow for the remaining tire bead to move beyond and over the rim edge. If that rim bed channel has a thick rim tape installed, which decreases the rim bed depth and reduces the room for tire translation, it may become so tight that you have to go to Herculean efforts to get the last bit of the second bead over the rim edge. While you may be able to do that with some tire levers (aka "jacks") and/or liberal use of a lubricant, such as talc, if not careful you just might damage the tire, or the rim. Now, consider having to do that roadside after a flat.

It's a real issue, well known, broadly commented about in numerous online forums, columns, blogs, etc.


----------



## voss

ibericb said:


> I'll try one more time, because you surely don't get it.
> 
> When mounting a clincher tire on a rim you are trying to get a flexible but inextensible hoop of diameter D over a larger diameter rigid flange (D +x). The only way that can be done is by using the tire's flexibility to install part of the first tire bead over the larger diameter rim edge, then moving that part of the tire bead into the rim bed channel so that the tire can be translated toward the uninstalled bead segment so that it is now positioned beyond the rim edge. For that to work there has to be enough depth in the rim bed to provide for sufficient translation of tire such that the entire smaller diameter tire bead can be installed over the larger diameter rim flange. Rim tape in the bed decreases the amount of translation possible by the thickness of the tape. If all goes well, you have the first side installed.
> 
> Now just repeat that for the second bead. Typically that will be more difficult than the first because the first installed bead takes up some of the room in the rim bed needed to translate the tire to allow for the remaining tire bead to move beyond and over the rim edge. If that rim bed channel has a thick rim tape installed, which decreases the rim bed depth and reduces the room for tire translation, it may become so tight that you have to go to Herculean efforts to get the last bit of the second bead over the rim edge. While you may be able to do that with some tire levers (aka "jacks") and/or liberal use of a lubricant, such as talc, if not careful you just might damage the tire, or the rim. Now, consider having to do that roadside after a flat.
> 
> It's a real issue, well known, broadly commented about in numerous online forums, columns, blogs, etc.


I really appreciate the explanation, for the love of god I am not getting it. I need to think. And I really appreciate the thinking


----------



## tvad

ibericb said:


> The only way that can be done is by using the tire's flexibility to install part of the first tire bead over the larger diameter rim edge, then moving that part of the tire bead into the rim bed channel* so that the tire can be translated toward the uninstalled bead segment so that it is now positioned beyond the rim edge. For that to work there has to be enough depth in the rim bed to provide for sufficient translation of tire such that the entire smaller diameter tire bead can be installed over the larger diameter rim flange.*


Huh?

Gotta say, I'm with voss on not grasping the lingo here...do we need secret decoder rings?


----------



## cxwrench

voss said:


> I really appreciate the explanation, for the love of god I am not getting it. I need to think. And I really appreciate the thinking


Holy crap...you're really an engineer and you can't wrap your head around this? It's most definitely not 'rubbish', it's fact. I think the part you don't get is that you aren't trying to fit the tire over the rim bead all they way around it's diameter at the same time. You do one part and then work your way around so in effect the diameter is constantly changing. The diameter of the tire stays the same, but depending on where you are on the rim (edge/bead, bead seat, center of the well) the diameter can differ by up to 5mm. If you think mounting bicycle tires is hard, try mounting a motorcycle tire w/o using the well of the rim...it's impossible. 
The diameter isn't 'changing' anywhere, we're just measuring it at different areas and using the smaller diameter to our advantage. If you squeeze the tire beads together and they're in the deepest part of the rim well, you end up basically offsetting the diameters of the tire and rim to get some 'slack' at the tight part of the tire/rim. Maybe there's a video on YouTube you can watch...it's the only way to get even a reasonably snug tire onto a wheel. I show this to people that bring in 'unmountable' tires into the shop every week. I hear the whole 'I broke 3 tire levers and ruined 17 tubes' thing all the time. These people just don't know the tricks of the trade.


----------



## tvad

cxwrench said:


> If you squeeze the tire beads together and they're in the deepest part of the rim well, *you end up basically offsetting the diameters of the tire and rim to get some 'slack' at the tight part of the tire/rim.*


Eureka! Thanks, Mr. Secret Decoder Ring.


----------



## cxwrench

tvad said:


> Huh?
> 
> Gotta say, I'm with voss on not grasping the lingo here...do we need secret decoder rings?


By 'translated' he means 'moved'. Obviously the tire is smaller in diameter than the rim, it has to be to stay on when inflated. If you 'offset' the diameters you can get a tight tire onto a rim. You have to use the smallest diameter part of the rim, which is the well, to make it happen. It's very simple when you know how it works.


----------



## tvad

cxwrench said:


> By 'translated' he means 'moved'. Obviously the tire is smaller in diameter than the rim, it has to be to stay on when inflated. If you 'offset' the diameters you can get a tight tire onto a rim. You have to use the smallest diameter part of the rim, which is the well, to make it happen. It's very simple when you know how it works.


Yes, a simple technique _translated_ by you in simple terms.

So, have we concluded that clinchers are safe for mountain descents?


----------



## ibericb

tvad said:


> Huh?
> 
> Gotta say, I'm with voss on not grasping the lingo here...do we need secret decoder rings?


So Mr wrench got you squared away?

Maybe the word "translation" threw you - as I used it it means to move it in a linear manner.

Here's the trick - get a smaller diameter hoop, that can't be stretched, over a larger diameter rim. You do that by using the changing diameter trick wrench described. In doing that you move the bead into the rim bed (his well), then translate (move) the remaining part so as to extend over the rim edge. But as best I can judge it only works with a flexible hoop (not to be confused with extensible). Try it with a purely rigid hoop inflexible and I don't think it will work very well.


----------



## cxwrench

ibericb said:


> So Mr wrench got you squared away?
> 
> Maybe the word "translation" threw you - as I used it it means to move it in a linear manner.
> 
> Here's the trick - get a smaller diameter hoop, that can't be stretched, over a larger diameter rim. You do that by using the changing diameter trick wrench described. In doing that you move the bead into the rim bed (his well), then translate (move) the remaining part so as to extend over the rim edge. But as best I can judge it only works with a flexible hoop (not to be confused with extensible). Try it with a purely rigid hoop inflexible and I don't think it will work very well.


Exactly. Many times you can get so much slack in the tire that it requires no force at all to get it over the rim. And rim tape thickness obviously makes a difference, if we have a super tight set up or someone w/ bad form/weak hands, going to a thin tape (Stans) can work wonders.


----------



## tvad

ibericb said:


> Maybe the word "translation" threw you - as I used it it means to move it in a linear manner.


That was it. Once Mr. Secret Decoder Ring explained in layman's terms the clouds broke and the sun shone down upon my brain.


----------



## ibericb

cxwrench said:


> ...Maybe there's a video on YouTube you can watch...it's the only way to get even a reasonably snug tire onto a wheel.


Try this one from Zipp, and you'll see the difficulty the Zip expert has, ultimately resorting to using levers.


----------



## cxwrench

tvad said:


> That was it. Once Mr. Secret Decoder Ring explained in layman's terms the clouds broke and the sun shone down upon my brain.


Damn, that's descriptive as well!:thumbsup:


----------



## ibericb

tvad said:


> That was it. Once Mr. Secret Decoder Ring explained in layman's terms the clouds broke and the sun shone down upon my brain.


Sorry - one of the perils of my physics background. We don't like to use simple words like "move" that ,most people would actually understand, when translate can be used to confuse the masses.


----------



## voss

I am going to print the comments off as I prepare and head off to Galway because I am waiting for that eureka moment. I really do appreciate the explanations. If you take the time to explain it to me, I will certainly take the time to read and study it. I read automotive engineering, quantity surveying And law. And for the sceptics top of my class. If I make a mistake, I would be the first to admit it. Going back to the origins of this thread, good carbon wheels are safe. It is a measured response but if you were ever to try out wheels it was going to be the wicklow mountains. When needed, I yanked those anchors on because my safety is paramount, no squeal, no brake track doing odd movements. What impresses me is the bling factor. For the sceptics I will post pics. Proof is in the pudding. By next week I should have the new Sony Cam(the mini) and I will send you guys proof of the braking. My wife thinks I am crazy but what impressed me as I walked up part of that rocky valley road as she cycled past me was a woman that asked are you ok. To make matters worse she had a 26 teeth cog. Seriously! Cycling makes you want to get fit.


----------



## tinball

ibericb said:


> Try this one from Zipp, and you'll see the difficulty the Zip expert has, ultimately resorting to using levers.


And to think, I've been doing it wrong all this time.... I always end at the tube stem - not start at when mounting the second bead. Completely backward from this video. This makes it so the second bead can sit deeper into the center channel of the wheel (not blocked by the tube stem) and make it easier to mount the last bit. It is also less likely that you will catch the tube and pinch with the last bit of bead going over the rim. 

Using this method, I have had little difficulty mounting my tires on my 1st gen Pacenti SL23 even using Velox tape on the wheels.

For Voss and tvad - take 2 washers, one slightly smaller than the other. The larger washer is the rim. The smaller is the tire. Put them on top of the each other with the smaller on top. Now offset them a bit until you see a gap. That is essentially what you are doing when placing the tire in the center channel of the rim. Since the tire is flexible, you don't need to offset it as far to create the amount of distance to allow the bead over the rim - the tire becomes an oval when mounting. Well, at least that is the best I could come up with. Hopefully, I didn't confuse the issue more.


----------



## deviousalex

voss said:


> To make matters worse she had a 26 teeth cog. Seriously!


Maybe you should go ride your bike down mountains that require a more 26t cog to get up and then report back. Most people I know that have had these wheels have either warped them from the eventual heating/cooling cycles or destroyed them on alpine descents in France, Italy, etc. But if you want to assume something is safe because yours hasn't failed after a few goes feel free to do so. I'm actually quite astonished that an engineer would think along these lines.


----------



## cxwrench

Train engineer maybe?


----------



## K Dub Cycle

I currently have 3 wheelsets:
1. Shamal Alloy Clinchers.
2. Bora One 35 Carbon clinchers. 
3. Bora One 50 Carbon tubulars. 
After reading this thread, I think I will use the Bora carbon clinchers for more rolling terrain, which is 90% of my training. And switch to the Shamal alloy clinchers when I do mountainous rides with steep descents. The tubulars for race day when there is a wheel car.


----------



## spdntrxi

I did Levi's GF with my Enve 3.4.. never again. C24's this year and I'm ready. Why ? Because when you go down hauser in traffic with newbs = not very fun. Maybe next year I just HTFU too... but I got stuck at a rest station for an hour because of a bad accident on that descent.


----------



## tvad

K Dub Cycle said:


> I currently have 3 wheelsets:
> 1. Shamal Alloy Clinchers.
> 2. Bora One 35 Carbon clinchers.
> 3. Bora One 50 Carbon tubulars.
> After reading this thread, I think I will use the Bora carbon clinchers for more rolling terrain, which is 90% of my training. And switch to the Shamal alloy clinchers when I do mountainous rides with steep descents. The tubulars for race day when there is a wheel car.


Nice stable of wheel sets! And, good decision.


----------



## deviousalex

spdntrxi said:


> I did Levi's GF with my Enve 3.4.. never again. C24's this year and I'm ready. Why ? Because when you go down hauser in traffic with newbs = not very fun. Maybe next year I just HTFU too... but I got stuck at a rest station for an hour because of a bad accident on that descent.


I did it with Reynolds DV3Ks, they had the CTg braking surface. I was fine, although I weigh'ed like 150 at the time and don't use the brakes a whole ton. Year after I did them on alloy wheels because I switched to those full time for training.


----------



## voss

cxwrench said:


> Train engineer maybe?


I laugh cxwrench. I am a two weeks late on the sony mini cam but I have the other pics so building my response after I study my peers observations. Even the chinese R&D development agree with my observations. American Universities are keeping track of our new ideas, I tracked them all, did you. Did you know our conversation is tracked. No one could ever imagine that bike technology would become as important as car technology. Do not diss my report until you have read it. You might keep an open mind as to the results.


----------



## voss

deviousalex said:


> Maybe you should go ride your bike down mountains that require a more 26t cog to get up and then report back. Most people I know that have had these wheels have either warped them from the eventual heating/cooling cycles or destroyed them on alpine descents in France, Italy, etc. But if you want to assume something is safe because yours hasn't failed after a few goes feel free to do so. I'm actually quite astonished that an engineer would think along these lines.


I was referring to gearing. I seemed not to explain it to you properly. She was going uphill. I guess my point being get the right gearing uphill was as equally as important as getting your braking right downhill. Just an observation. Bless that girl she offered me help as I walked up.


----------



## cxwrench

voss said:


> I laugh cxwrench. I am a two weeks late on the sony mini cam but I have the other pics so building my response after I study my peers observations. Even the chinese R&D development agree with my observations. American Universities are keeping track of our new ideas, I tracked them all, did you. *Did you know our conversation is tracked*. No one could ever imagine that bike technology would become as important as car technology. Do not diss* my report* until you have read it. You might keep an open mind as to the results.


Do you have your tinfoil hat on? And where is this 'report' you have written? The fact that you could not understand how tire and rim diameters work together doesn't go very far in convincing me you have even the slightest clue you know what you're talking about.


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## deviousalex

cxwrench said:


> Do you have your tinfoil hat on? And where is this 'report' you have written? The fact that you could not understand how tire and rim diameters work together doesn't go very far in convincing me you have even the slightest clue you know what you're talking about.


The N^^SA is interested in trakcing on-bike terrorism. Watch it cxwrench, they know what you are up to.


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## robt57

cxwrench said:


> Do you have your tinfoil hat on?


I put some Mastik in the foil hat, so if he puts it on it is not coming off easily.


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## voss

cxwrench said:


> Do you have your tinfoil hat on? And where is this 'report' you have written? The fact that you could not understand how tire and rim diameters work together doesn't go very far in convincing me you have even the slightest clue you know what you're talking about.


I am laughing right now! I hope I do not become like John Malkovich's character in Red. Make one mistake in your thinking process and everyone labels you as a nut case in a tin foil hat. It will take an enormous amount of convincing me that the thickness of an inner tube will effectively change the nominal tyre diameter which is at a fixed point and considered considered relative. Further that in the carbon clincher design to negate the tyre inner tube a weak factor. Given it is ubject to change through thermal propogation and that by providing an insular material/element between that and the the heat transfer at the point of contact would not resist the heat transfer and provide benefits.

In any research that I do or in fact any engineer/sensible man does we need Guineas, irrespective if they are intelligent people. They usually term it learning by our mistakes. If you extend that logic you you not think it plausible that American university students are coming up with better resin designs would not draw upon that information in their research on forum posts. It is obvious you did not do any further education. Further that a bull headed notion makes you always right. There is always room to improve the potion. There does come a point where all the scare mongering in the world will not change pioneers because we seek solutions. Not everyone has a budget to test Carbon wheels out and fail and try again. Further, I am not paying a thousand dollars on a wheel set only to leave my 'best' only to be used for three weeks of the year. B**ks to notion these are training wheels. Not only do these high TG wheels work fine, I could cycle to the Himylayas and back. What I will say is that after maybe 1000k in three weeks, I am burning through brakes. Reckon another 2 k left in them. Would not change them out for any other make, they are working perfectly. Beyond me what all the drama is about!
I digress on wheels ,other observations. Shoes I wanted lighter and I had Shimano RO86. I went with Crono futura. Look like 8 times better and have the wide comfortable fit. With or without the velcro straps they weigh exactly the same. I do have a hot spot. Shoes you can not buy on the net. It is a personal thing. Shimano vibe t800 handlebars(by the way some are recalled, research), I could do a handstand on those handlebars and therein lies the problem. They are so stiff.The F8 forks are much more twitchy then the think 2. After 300 kms I reckon my hands will be toast. Super record/record groupset it feels alive. More a symbiotic relationship. As for the F8 frame in a class of it's own. It is better then the think 2 ? Definately looks uglier but what a machine!


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## voss

Ibericb--- absolute rubbish.Infdemico...I agree but how does that affect a tyre at a fixed rim point. Deviousalex..just do not see it.?Ibericb....the tyre never extends beyonds the rim channel at a fixed point, it expands. The rim bead is at x not x plus. There are no floating diameters other then expansion. Your logic is complete rubbish. CXwrench..the diameter is not constantly changing at the rim bed. It is effective and fixed. God bless you guys I read it but fail to see your point. I think cxwrench you should read the initial train of thought. Please do not tell me that you are trying to tell me how you are trying to explain to me how to put a tyre on a wheel...morons!


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## ibericb

voss said:


> Ibericb--- absolute rubbish.Infdemico...I agree but how does that affect a tyre at a fixed rim point. Deviousalex..just do not see it.?Ibericb....the tyre never extends beyonds the rim channel at a fixed point, it expands. The rim bead is at x not x plus. There are no floating diameters other then expansion. Your logic is complete rubbish. CXwrench..the diameter is not constantly changing at the rim bed. It is effective and fixed. God bless you guys I read it but fail to see your point. I think cxwrench you should read the initial train of thought. Please do not tell me that you are trying to tell me how you are trying to explain to me how to put a tyre on a wheel...morons!


Please explain how the tire bead expands, since it is basically non-extensible.

The circle of the tire bead is non-extensible, and is a smaller radius/diameter than that of the rim edge. Given that, tell me how you get the smaller diameter tire circle over the rim edge.


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## ibericb

Try this -- "wire bead into the well of the rim". As clearly shown and explained, the tire bead does NOT expand. If the bed well is not deep enough, you just might not get that last bit over the rim edge.






Now, please tell us which College of Engineering or University you attended. I need to know that to make assure that my children don'tever go there.


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## cxwrench

voss said:


> Ibericb--- absolute rubbish.Infdemico...I agree but how does that affect a tyre at a fixed rim point. Deviousalex..just do not see it.?Ibericb....the tyre never extends beyonds the rim channel at a fixed point, it expands. The rim bead is at x not x plus. There are no floating diameters other then expansion. Your logic is complete rubbish. CXwrench..the diameter is not constantly changing at the rim bed. It is effective and fixed. God bless you guys I read it but fail to see your point. I think cxwrench you should read the initial train of thought. Please do not tell me that you are trying to tell me how you are trying to explain to me how to put a tyre on a wheel...morons!


And..."Further that a bull headed notion makes you always right. " 

What was that you said? You should master English to the same degree you've obviously mastered composite engineering and...ahem...tire installation. Then we could have a better understanding of what you're actually trying to say.


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## voss

ibericb said:


> Try this -- "wire bead into the well of the rim". As clearly shown and explained, the tire bead does NOT expand. If the bed well is not deep enough, you just might not get that last bit over the rim edge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, please tell us which College of Engineering or University you attended. I need to know that to make assure that my children don'tever go there.


Southgate College Automotive Engineering in London


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## voss

voss said:


> Southgate College Automotive Engineering in London


The rim bed does not affect the tire bead sitting position


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## voss

cxwrench said:


> And..."Further that a bull headed notion makes you always right. "
> 
> What was that you said? You should master English to the same degree you've obviously mastered composite engineering and...ahem...tire installation. Then we could have a better understanding of what you're actually trying to say.


I have three degrees, you honestly think I give a damn about my English


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## voss

tvad said:


> Nice stable of wheel sets! And, good decision.


Seriously no one can afford those set of wheels. God bless the fact you can.So got to keep it real.


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## deviousalex

voss said:


> Seriously no one can afford those set of wheels. God bless the fact you can.So got to keep it real.


Yet you can afford a 5k Pinarello F8 frameset?


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## voss

I promise to post the video and my report.... for now my wife is so on my case..I have to go


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## voss

deviousalex said:


> Yet you can afford a 5k Pinarello F8 frameset?


It gets worse. When my Think 2 was stolen I screamed to my wife it is expensive. She said to me what ever it costs. I had a blank check for a bike I spent 10500 euros. The irony is three years ago I started with a Dawes giro 300. All I ever wanted to do was lose weight and I adore cycling and the generous community.


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## cxwrench

voss said:


> I have three degrees, you honestly think I give a damn about my English


You damn well should, it makes you sound like you're learned...like you claim to be. I don't care whether you have 3 degrees or 30, you come across like an idiot half the time.


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## robt57

voss said:


> I have three degrees, you honestly think I give a damn about my English


I honestly think you should get over yourself after I read shiet like that. If you give a shiet you just made me discount your posts as a casual reader. 

You decide for yourself what you do or do not give a damn about. But remember that you are not the only one on the planet, in case no one has mentioned it.


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## ibericb

cxwrench said:


> You damn well should, it makes you sound like you're learned...like you claim to be. I don't care whether you have 3 degrees or 30, you come across like an idiot *half the time*.


Uncharacteristically for you cx, you're being quite kind.


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## voss

robt57 said:


> I honestly think you should get over yourself after I read shiet like that. If you give a shiet you just made me discount your posts as a casual reader.
> 
> 
> It is an KNOWN FACT fact that cx rench is socially challenged an that IBERCIB is a patsy.As for robt57 you contribution to the cause is what. Talk about challeneged.


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## ibericb

Where did they put it? 

Nevermind, found it ... Add to ignore list. Done!


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## robt57

voss said:


> As for robt57 you contribution to the cause is what.


If you think I give 1/2 a sheit about any forum cause, you are mistaken. And if you think piling others against your cause is useful in some way, also mistaken.

If you have ever read any of my postings you would know I am no sheep.
CXwr.. would be my last choice to align with anyway. I find his posts unnecessarily brash frankly. Except in this thread perhaps, I only usually agree with his mechanical postings. 

The calling out **** in these threads make me want to puke, luckily there is enough useful data...

I do know when someone is being an idiot 'TO THE THIRD DEGREE' and a sanctimonious elitist fool though. Observationally.

As Always: IMO

Nonsensical juvenile jabber forum should be the name of this thread..


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## cxwrench

voss said:


> I promise to post the video and my report.... *for now my wife is so on my case..I have to go*


Maybe you should think about this a little. I wonder why?


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## tvad

This thread is such a train wreck it's impossible to turn away.

Fantastic!


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## cxwrench

tvad said:


> This thread is such a train wreck it's impossible to turn away.
> 
> Fantastic!


Seriously...I can't imagine if Voss posted on one of the gun forums I'm on. It would be 10 pages in an hour and his reputation would be forever in the toilet. 

Wait...


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## the mayor

So....just to be clear....
How many degrees do I need to descend hills safely on carbon clinchers?


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## robt57

the mayor said:


> So....just to be clear....



Seems too late for that, clarity in this thread I mean?


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## K Dub Cycle

Can we get back on topic? Are the newer generation high end carbon clinchers (Campy Bora, Enve, Zipp) safe for descending?


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## ibericb

cxwrench said:


> Seriously...I can't imagine if Voss posted on one of the gun forums I'm on. *It would be 10 pages in an hour and his reputation would be forever in the toilet*.
> 
> Wait...


So, you're saying the difference is the length of the thread? Three pages instead of 10? Maybe RBR is just more efficient.


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## Keoki

K Dub Cycle said:


> Can we get back on topic? Are the newer generation high end carbon clinchers (Campy Bora, Enve, Zipp) safe for descending?


Yes, all are bomb proof. Out of the 3, get the Zipp Firestrike.


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## cxwrench

voss said:


> The rim bed does not affect the tire bead sitting position


Exactly right. But because it's lower in the center (smaller diameter than at the bead set) it makes it easier to mount the tire than if the rim didn't have this feature.


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## cxwrench

Keoki said:


> Yes, all are bomb proof. Out of the 3, get the Zipp Firestrike.


Not sure about the current Campy wheels, zero experience w/ them. Enve-great. Bontrager-great. Zipp-great. I'd probably go Bontrager because the rims are pretty much the same as Zipp and the hubs are a little better being that they have DT internals.


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## Keoki

cxwrench said:


> Not sure about the current Campy wheels, zero experience w/ them. Enve-great. Bontrager-great. Zipp-great. I'd probably go Bontrager because the rims are pretty much the same as Zipp and the hubs are a little better being that they have DT internals.


I think you've miss understood my response. I was responding to the question of braking on carbon clinchers, not aero/performance. I've test rode the firestrike while pouring rain descending on 5 - 6% grade just to see if they live up to the hype. Well, the conclusion was that they brake just as good as alloy as advertise.


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## cxwrench

Keoki said:


> I think you've miss understood my response. I was responding to the question of braking on carbon clinchers, not aero/performance. I've test rode the firestrike while pouring rain descending on 5 - 6% grade just to see if they live up to the hype. Well, the conclusion was that they brake just as good as alloy as advertise.


I didn't misunderstand anything. I meant exactly what I posted. If I didn't spell it out well enough, try this:

I don't have any experience personally w/ Campy wheels and their braking characteristics. I do know that Enve, Zipp, and Bontrager have fantastic braking. I would recommend the Bontrager because if all else is equal, their hubs are great. The Enve is a bit more of a pain to true because of the internal nipples. 

That better? Easier to understand?


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## Cinelli 82220

I read somewhere the Aeolus rims are actually made by Zipp and HED, one does the clincher and the other does the tubular. Can't remember which did what.

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with Campy Bora 35s?

I was looking at them but cx makes a good case for the Bontrager.


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## cxwrench

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I read somewhere the Aeolus rims are actually made by Zipp and HED, one does the clincher and the other does the tubular. Can't remember which did what.


The clincher rims used to be made by Zipp but Trek bought the molds, and I would guess either made new ones for TLR rims or modified the original molds. They're all made in-house at this point.


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## Cinelli 82220

Interesting, thanks.


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## Keoki

cxwrench said:


> I didn't misunderstand anything. I meant exactly what I posted. If I didn't spell it out well enough, try this:
> 
> I don't have any experience personally w/ Campy wheels and their braking characteristics. I do know that Enve, Zipp, and Bontrager have fantastic braking. I would recommend the Bontrager because if all else is equal, their hubs are great. The Enve is a bit more of a pain to true because of the internal nipples.
> 
> That better? Easier to understand?


nope.... can you show me a video? lol


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## cxwrench

Keoki said:


> nope.... can you show me a video? lol


Damn, my co-worker has my VIRB...is iPotato video ok?


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## voss

cxwrench said:


> You damn well should, it makes you sound like you're learned...like you claim to be. I don't care whether you have 3 degrees or 30, you come across like an idiot half the time.


Literally broke my heart. I lost the bike within 20 seconds at Mace store in Clnbrasill street, video and all, the Dogma was a road warrior. You pour your heart into a bike and then some scumbag steals it
/


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## deviousalex

voss said:


> Literally broke my heart. I lost the bike within 20 seconds at Mace store in Clnbrasill street, video and all, the Dogma was a road warrior. You pour your heart into a bike and then some scumbag steals it
> /


Just smile remembering that the crappy carbon wheels will eventually fail and the guy will likely end up with a broken face. Karma will work out in the end.


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## dcb

It seems from what I've read that newer generation carbon clinchers are more capable of staying structurally sound during heat build up from braking. Since this probably makes the weak link the tire or tube blowing out during heat build up, I was wondering if tubeless road tires would be better or worse in this regard than conventional clincher tires. I ask because I recently bought a bike that came stock with tubeless ready carbon rims. Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this subject.


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## blackcat_wheels

Few cents and short story from my side regarding carbon clinchers and safety in the mountains…

As a wheel builder I have couple of wheels in my garage for my disposal. From all of them I mostly love and use the carbon clinchers. I won’t explain why as this is not the right post for it.

I’m using 38mm HTG rims from Yishunbike bike. Living in Swiss Alps so far I was mostly focusing to find the most temperature resistance carbon molds possible to make sure that during long descends rim will not fall apart due to overheating.
I must say that the choice I made with those rims was very correct. This year only I did over 5k km on those wheels with very long climbs and crazy descends in hot & rainy days. No issues with braking at all. Road trips with 200km and over 5k meters climb were pure pleasure. Braking surface is very solid, braking power is acceptable, no issue with the carbon mold at all.

The setup I used was:

- Yishun 38mm HTG rims
- Black prince braking pads
- Velox rim tape
- Light Conti race inner tubes
- Veloflex 25mm tires

I got full confidence with this setup until one particular day when front inner tube exploded on steep descend catapulting me over the handlebars 
I was going on very hilly road with the 16% descend which last for 4-5km. The road is very narrow, technical with many sharp curves so I had to exceptionally drag on both brakes constantly for few minutes which normally I never do. Almost at the end of the descent the front tube suddenly exploded…

Spending few days on recovery and rebuilding the bike I did some analysis:

- First of all, looking at the broken tube I’m 100% sure that it exploded due to heat. The tube went under the tire bead which caused the damage
- Partially it could be caused by tires. Veloflex are brilliant but they are very easy to mount with bare hands without any levers. I think that if the tire would be tighter, the inner tube pressure wouldn’t lift the tire so easily and potentially tube would stay on in right place
- Velox tape is not the best choice for high pressure. Although it was mounted properly during the usage the tape moves and some rim holes may be uncovered
- I remember putting 110 PSI on front which I believe now it was too much. Maybe having 100 PSI would leave enough room for potential tube expand due to heat
- I’m thinking that it’s actually better when rim is hot (like aluminum) as it means that the heat is transferred more easily. Carbon is barely warm after descends but it can mean that inside the temperature is much higher and it can’t get out causing tube expansion… just a thought and observation

So the conclusion is that I will still try & use carbon clincher setup but with some modifications:

- Same rims and pads
- Rim tape will be from Schwalbe 16mm
- Inner tubes will be standard this time, thicker = more rubber = safer?
- Tires will be with tighter bead, like conti 4000
- Lower tube pressure at start, max 100 PSI

Happy to hear your thoughts and observations which could limit the risk of accident like mine

Cheers
Tomas


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## MMsRepBike

My quick two cents on your explosion:

Black Prince pads. Not the rim tape or high pressure or tires.

Black Prince and other such pads like Enve grey are a rubber based compound. Rubbery if you will. They work by applying mass friction due to the rubbery type material. This material heats up like crazy, even melts the pads, that's why they leave streaks on the rim surface.

I am strongly against anyone using Black Prince pads on carbon rims based on experience. I don't care what kind of rims they are or who made them.

I am strongly in favor of the Yellow King type of pads instead. Also Farsports/Tokyowheel/Origin 8/etc. use a Ceramic Fiber pad. Both of these types are dusting pads. They have no rubbery texture and leave no streaks or material behind on the rim, they dust away instead. Like a brake pad on a disc brake.

These dusting away pads dramatically reduce heat build up. So much so that I can't recommend Black Prince or anything like it anymore to anyone. I've seen them ruin far too many rims and almost kill far too many people.

"But it's the industry standard MMs".... I don't care. I don't care what anyone has to say really, I only care about what I've experienced over the years.

Avoid Black Prince pads and any such rubbery ones if you value your safety. Switch to pads that dust away.


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## blackcat_wheels

Thanks!

Very surprised hearing your opinion about black prince pads. This is the last item on my list I would change 
SwissStop claims that those generate 30% less heat than other pads. I also observed that they do leave streaks on the rim. It doesn’t damage the rim itself, at least not mine so I didn’t worry about that too much

What I read about yellow king pads is that they are also rubber based but harder compound comparing to black prince. So far all pads I’ve seen were rubber based…
Would you be able to put couple of links to the pads you recommend? I’d be happy to try them

Cheers
Tomas


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## Notvintage

blackcat_wheels said:


> SwissStop claims that those generate 30% less heat than other pads.


Bingo! Definitely listen to the manufacturer not "some dude" spouting off generalizations and stuff.


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## MMsRepBike

I understand my position is controversial.

I don't advocate for Yellow King as a pad, I think they suck balls. What yellow pads are Mavic using now on their carbon rims that dust away? Those. I advocate for pads that dust away. Sintered construction I think it is? I'm no expert. The pads I use are "ceramic fiber" construction that just dusts away. Doesn't leave any streaks or material behind on the rim besides dust.

My personal experience with Black Prince has not been good. I can say the same with Enve grey, the old ones they used. I can't say that any pad that leaves streaks is any good for that matter. I think the Reynolds blue are in this category as well. I don't like that method of braking.

I don't agree that Black Prince pads generate the least heat. Or even that they run cool at all. I consider them to run quite hot and keep getting hotter as the descent runs over half an hour or more.

I use these:

https://www.niagaracycle.com/catego...ad-iii-pro-road-inserts-for-carbon-rims-black


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## K Dub Cycle

I remember reading that Veloflex specifically recommends against using the open clincher tire on carbon rims due to the possibility of the sharp edge of of the carbon rim cutting into the sidewall or bead of the tire. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## typ993

blackcat_wheels said:


> SwissStop claims that those generate 30% less heat than other pads.


I don't quite see how this claim works. If you are slowing yourself and your bike down, the same amount of kinetic energy has to be dissipated, no matter what pad you are using. The heat either goes into the rim or into the brake pad/holder and is then dissipated through convection (mostly) or radiation.

Brake pads would seem to be a lousy conductor (since they are largely a rubber-type compound) and you are unlikely to have good heat transfer directly from the pad to the air due to the small surface area. A cooler pad just means more heat is being put into the rim and then it is up to the rim to get rid of the heat.


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## mfdemicco

typ993 said:


> I don't quite see how this claim works. If you are slowing yourself and your bike down, the same amount of kinetic energy has to be dissipated, no matter what pad you are using. The heat either goes into the rim or into the brake pad/holder and is then dissipated through convection (mostly) or radiation.
> 
> Brake pads would seem to be a lousy conductor (since they are largely a rubber-type compound) and you are unlikely to have good heat transfer directly from the pad to the air due to the small surface area. A cooler pad just means more heat is being put into the rim and then it is up to the rim to get rid of the heat.


I agree with you on the energy generated being the same, but if the pad were more thermally conductive, it would conduct heat away from the braking surface and into the pad, pad holder, and brake arm, then connective cooling can work as well.


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## mfdemicco

Do the sidewalls of carbon rims wear a lot faster than aluminum (rim brakes)?


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## coachboyd

mfdemicco said:


> Do the sidewalls of carbon rims wear a lot faster than aluminum (rim brakes)?


no, much less so.
With alloy you will pick up little slivers of aluminum in the brake pads, and eventually the aluminum will wear away. This leaves a concave section in the brake track.

With carbon you are not losing any material in the brake pad. The brake pads will wear a bit faster than alloy pads on alloy rims, but the rims do not become concave over time. Eventually the carbon can wear, but usually after a much longer time than alloy.


----------

