# ToC...BORING!



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

My GOD! For a field that is supposedly stronger than the Giro, this has been the most boring stage race I've seen for a long time.

Even the Big Bear stage goes to a sprint. That's 4 of 6 stages going to a sprint finish.

Now the Giro. Wow. Slap fights, hail, muddy gravel roads, mountain top finishes with guys bleeding from the eyeballs to win, (nearly) entire field crashes in the Netherlands, ridiculous breakaways.... 

I think May has shown which race is the better race.


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## NYBigfoot (Oct 18, 2009)

I couldn't agree more!!


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

I thought the Big Bear stage was pretty good actually.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Coolhand said:


> I thought the Big Bear stage was pretty good actually.


I also thought yesterday was a nice race. Perhaps not the most epic race of all time, but very good nonetheless.


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## Trek491 (Apr 27, 2004)

I do think that all of the favorites are relying on their ability in the time trial. But since Levi, Dave Z. and Michael Rogers are all great time trialists, I was really expecting more out of yesterdays stage. Why no attacks from any of them, only from teammates didn't make much sense to me. (Maybe that's why I still have to work my "day job" though, maybe I just don't understand it all).

One other thing I really didn't understand was why Matt Wilson was taking pulls with the United guy, when, if they would have stayed away, would have meant him pulling that guy into the lead iver his own teammate. Why he ever got on the front at all is beyond me.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

shows how important the race is deemed by the top teams.


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## concretejungle (Jul 13, 2009)

den bakker said:


> shows how important the race is deemed by the top teams.


It really does look like they're out for a ride with a couple friends.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, I realize the riders aren't going to attack just because Phil & Paul say so, but the overall strategy of all of the leaders sticking together to play prevent defense (while good strategy, I guess) makes for a pretty underwhelming day IMHO. I know it's a team effort and they're thinking long-term overall, but it would be nice to see someone go off the front and bury himself because he's the strongest rider, rather than the best tactician. Maybe we'll get that with the TT.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

It should have been a mountain top finish if they wanted some action between contenders, the long flat after all that climbing is a guarantee the favorites wont attack each other... The whole race decided by the TT and time bonuses.


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## desmo13 (Jun 28, 2006)

Put a TT after a tough climbing stage, when all the leaders rely on the TT, and thats what you get. They were all just saving themselves for L.A.

But, as for boring..and a CA native.. I can't figure why they the did Visalia to bakersfield.. probably the least desirable part of CA from attracting visitors and attention to CA. I miss the hwy 1 stages.

good time of year, they need a death valley or mojave stage


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

desmo13 said:


> Put a TT after a tough climbing stage, when all the leaders rely on the TT, and thats what you get. They were all just saving themselves for L.A.
> 
> But, as for boring..and a CA native.. I can't figure why they the did Visalia to bakersfield.. probably the least desirable part of CA from attracting visitors and attention to CA. I miss the hwy 1 stages.
> 
> good time of year, they need a death valley or mojave stage


The last stage has potential to determine overall GC if the times are close after the TT. The last half of the circuit is suited for a late attack - a climb, rollers, and a fast, hair-raising descent run in. Could be an exciting finish


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

I agree that the racing has been uneventful. In defense of AEG, though, they are developing the race reasonably well. They have a lot of challenges in dealing with public agencies in order to to get to the right places. 

The National Parks people have said they can't let a professional race in their facilities, which are some of the more obvious prime destinations. 

Municipalities seem to be more interested in hosting the tour now. While the central valley might not make for interesting racing, the opportunity to jump off into Western slope the Sierras is intruiging (there's a loop out of Fresno that goes to ~8,000 that would be dramatic). 

It takes time to find the right mix of cities and countryside that make for good racing. I think they'll get there eventually. If the race is still close on Sunday the stage will be an interesting one.

JSR


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

it's not so much the venue as the riders that is the problem. For quite a few riders this is just getting back on the bike after the classics and (very) early preparation for the tour. There will be no fireworks with that formula. 


JSR said:


> I agree that the racing has been uneventful. In defense of AEG, though, they are developing the race reasonably well. They have a lot of challenges in dealing with public agencies in order to to get to the right places.
> 
> The National Parks people have said they can't let a professional race in their facilities, which are some of the more obvious prime destinations.
> 
> ...


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

I've enjoyed the race for what it is, a nice one week race with potential to grow, rather than what some are trying to make it. the forth GT. 

It's nice as a Californian to have a solid stage race that attracts some big names right in my own backyard. Without having the deep cycling history that the big European races have it's ALL about money for the TOC. So that means circuits and and cities and somewhat predictable (maybe boring) racing. Remote mountain top finishes may be too much to ask for unless an independent donor can throw a boat load of money into one. 

One can always hope for the economy to make a turn and maybe someday this race can develop into the potential that some think that it has.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

den bakker said:


> it's not so much the venue as the riders that is the problem. For quite a few riders this is just getting back on the bike after the classics and (very) early preparation for the tour. There will be no fireworks with that formula.


Yeah, that's a good point. AEG have said they intend to build the race to GT status. For now, though, they've found a time slot that, by definition, makes it a second-tier race. 

Moving up the food chain will involve improving the race venues as well as solving the calendar problem. I honestly don't know how they'll do it, but then I'm not paid to know!

JSR


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

I think the Giro is such a good race this year BECAUSE of the ToC teams have to field 2 very good teams and its obvious that the TDF hopefuls are racing the ToC and their "lieutenants" are there to support them...makes for a wild Giro

Chad


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Nimitz said:


> I think the Giro is such a good race this year BECAUSE of the ToC teams have to field 2 very good teams and its obvious that the TDF hopefuls are racing the ToC and their "lieutenants" are there to support them...makes for a wild Giro
> 
> Chad


Schleck is racing? He is almost rolling backwards. 
Well he is excused for being distracted


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

den bakker said:


> Schleck is racing? He is almost rolling backwards.
> Well he is excused for being distracted
> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_OvfK9eklqkw/S...C3SNevU/s1280/Podium Look TOC Stage 1 037.JPG



no I mean they are racing the ToC as a training race...obviously but the strong teams in the ToC have made the giro very interesting.

Chad


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Nimitz said:


> no I mean they are racing the ToC as a training race...obviously but the strong teams in the ToC have made the giro very interesting.
> 
> Chad


well that's one possibility.
and the reason for the 2009 giro being exciting?


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Mountain top finishes are great for TV viewers, but getting thousands of people to drive somewhere and not find parking doesn't make for good live attendance. Even worse when the finishes aren't near big cities which would likely be the case with big climb finishes.

I agree that it is lack luster. I would love to see someone ride away from the competition at the end of a stage like Evans did to Vino and Cunego. The circuit finishes are garbage also. Again, the fans want to see them come by more than once. That is the reason for the criterium style finishes. It has cost them this year in crashes of the big names. Could cost them their participation next year as a result too.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spookyload said:


> Mountain top finishes are great for TV viewers, but getting thousands of people to drive somewhere and not find parking doesn't make for good live attendance. Even worse when the finishes aren't near big cities which would likely be the case with big climb finishes.
> 
> I agree that it is lack luster. I would love to see someone ride away from the competition at the end of a stage like Evans did to Vino and Cunego. The circuit finishes are garbage also. Again, the fans want to see them come by more than once. That is the reason for the criterium style finishes. It has cost them this year in crashes of the big names. Could cost them their participation next year as a result too.


lots of "smaller" euro races have circuit finishes.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Nimitz said:


> no I mean they are racing the ToC as a training race...obviously but the strong teams in the ToC have made the giro very interesting.
> 
> Chad


The Giro is good every year. I can't remember when there was a dull one, unlike the TdF which IMO has had the life squeezed out of it by JB/LA & Co on too many occasions.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

albert owen said:


> The Giro is good every year. I can't remember when there was a dull one.


Umm...try last year-when EVERY rider in the peloton at the Giro was "training for the TdF", and NO ONE was interested in actually racing.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> My GOD! For a field that is supposedly stronger than the Giro, this has been the most boring stage race I've seen for a long time.
> 
> Even the Big Bear stage goes to a sprint. That's 4 of 6 stages going to a sprint finish.
> 
> ...



Of course! That's why the RBR members and moderator who were so adamant that the Amgen ToC would somehow diminish the significance of the 100 + years running of a Grand Tour made me laugh / sigh at the naivity of the viewpoint. Oh well, everyone is entitled to one eh.
________
College Girls Cams


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the big bear stage wasn't exactly a sprint finish - there were only 21 riders in the first group. About a dozen riders, including Cavendish and Mark Renshaw, didn't make the time cut. I don't think anyone expected the ToC to rival a grand tour, but it's growing every year and headed in the right direction.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Coolhand said:


> I thought the Big Bear stage was pretty good actually.


+1. Pretty good stuffs, quite a number of attacks and a tight finish.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> the big bear stage wasn't exactly a sprint finish - there were only 21 riders in the first group. About a dozen riders, including Cavendish and Mark Renshaw, didn't make the time cut. I don't think anyone expected the ToC to rival a grand tour, but it's growing every year and headed in the right direction.


No 7-day race will ever rival a three-week Grand Tour, but ToC move to May definitely paid off - the fear was that nobody will come, and the lineup at this year's ToC is more impressive than ever.
Compared to last year, more big names who would otherwise probably do Giro decided to do ToC, rather than the other way around.

Now, what is missing is more mountains and more uphill finishes. The downhills after Big Bear and to some extent Bonny Dune have neutralized a lot of big moves by GC favorites. So in the end it seems it will come down to ITT, and possibly some time bonuses.

I like watching both ToC and Giro, but Giro has been definitely more unpredictable and exciting, mostly due to combination of tough mountain stages, bad weather, and three-week nature of the race.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

Many riders are overcome with emotion and cry after winning a stage of the Giro, they don't after winning a stage of TOC. That should tell you everything you need to know.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

Keski said:


> Many riders are overcome with emotion and cry after winning a stage of the Giro, they don't after winning a stage of TOC. That should tell you everything you need to know.
> 
> https://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com//2010/05/21/2/bettiniphoto_0053633_1_full_1_600.jpg



I don't think anyone is arguing that a 3 week Grand Tour race with as much history as the Giro is substandard to the ToC...

Chad


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

wait... _who_ said this field is stronger than the Giro?


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

To be honest, I have not really been following the ToC very closely. First Versus sucks and finding any good coverage on the east coast mean waiting, but by that time the Giro has already been lit up easy to follow on Universal Sports. And, the Giro has been so entertaining and exciting the whole race, it's pretty hard fo the ToC to follow. I think the ToC got along way to go before it hits GT status. The calendar definitely has to change and can't try to compete with the Giro... imho


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

This year's ToC field is stronger than the Giro's, on paper anyway. All of the top teams sent their "A" names (Saxo, RS, Garmin,Columbia, Quickstep) to ToC this year. Whether or not thier performances have been TdF worthy, the names they sent shouts loud and clear which race is more important to them and their sponsors. They are already competing with the Giro.

More interesting to me is the strength some of the US domestic teams have shown. Fly V and Bissel ought to see some more invites in the future.

It's true that the race needs a real mountiain top finish but yesterday's stage was no snoozer. There was plenty of racing going on but it was also clear that none of the top-3 were going to get away (team strength mentioned above). I'd like to see a stage through Yosemite.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

Not gonna fan the flames but I will say that I have enjoyed every minute of the giro and fast forwarded through large blocks of the toc and the TT today, well I fell asleep.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


> wait... _who_ said this field is stronger than the Giro?


Welcome to the forum - I, for one, did, and I stand by it. The field, as in "the list of names" at ToC is arguably as impressive or more impressive than at Giro. 

The race was much more interesting, unpredictable and exciting at the Giro. But primarily not because of big names.

Compared to other one-week races, such as Tour of Romandie, Tour de Suisse, Dauphine Libere, Tour of Germany, Volta a Catalunya, etc. the field assembled fares very well - comparable to Dauphine and Paris-Nice. Prestige is not quite as high as Dauphine or Paris-Nice, but that's perhaps more of a matter of time, as those other are much older races. And no 1-week race will ever compete with 3-week grand tours, not even with Vuelta.

However, the field assembled at ToC was indeed very impressive, better in quality of sprinters and time trialists, and comparable, if not more prominent, even though less deep, in terms of GC. You could swap current Giro and ToC fields and Giro would still prove to be an exciting race.


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## ksanbon (Jul 19, 2008)

I like the fact that MR, DZ, & LL are so close and that Jens is in the Top 5. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's Stage 8, but think it would have been more interesting if the finish line was at the top of the Mulholland climb.

Go Jens!


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

I think the ToC line-up looks good on paper too... but it also seems like it's a good place for the top riders to simply keeps their legs warm and not burn them up in the Giro before the TdF. The Giro is a hard, grueling event and not something you wanna hang your reputation on if you're not in it to win it. But if your sights are on the TdF the Giro may be a little too much.


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## grrlyrida (Aug 3, 2006)

desmo13 said:


> Put a TT after a tough climbing stage, when all the leaders rely on the TT, and thats what you get. They were all just saving themselves for L.A.
> 
> But, as for boring..and a CA native.. I can't figure why they the did Visalia to bakersfield.. probably the least desirable part of CA from attracting visitors and attention to CA. I miss the hwy 1 stages.
> 
> good time of year, they need a death valley or mojave stage


I couldn't agree more. The Bakersfield stage was the most unattractive stage I've seen on TV. They should have stuck to the Coast or the Desert.

Didn't seem like the TT was well attended for a city of millions. Most Angelenos don't like cyclists. Now if it was a Lakers game the streets surrounding Staples would be packed.

ToC has been boring. I wish I Directtv had Universal Sports.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

grrlyrida said:


> Didn't seem like the TT was well attended for a city of millions. Most Angelenos don't like cyclists. Now if it was a Lakers game the streets surrounding Staples would be packed.



The large police presence probably scared most of the immediate population away.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

Keski said:


> Many riders are overcome with emotion and cry after winning a stage of the Giro, they don't after winning a stage of TOC. That should tell you everything you need to know.


Seriously, I think he's crying because he's holding up a pink teddy bear instead of a yellow lion.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

My 10-yr old son and I enjoyed the race today. We watched mostly from the northern end of the course. Here's a photo of eventual stage winner Tony Martin.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

55x11 said:


> However, the field assembled at ToC was indeed very impressive, better in quality of sprinters and time trialists, and comparable, if not more prominent, even though less deep, in terms of GC. You could swap current Giro and ToC fields and Giro would still prove to be an exciting race.


what does it matter when the riders show up with a beer cooler and a beach towel? 
Cancellara as number 16 in a TT pretty much sums it up. 
But sure, ToC was a great place for autograph hunters.


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## desmo13 (Jun 28, 2006)

ToC will always be greater than the Giro.. Because I can drive to 4 stages in under 2 hours.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

davidka said:


> This year's ToC field is stronger than the Giro's, on paper anyway. All of the top teams sent their "A" names (Saxo, RS, Garmin,Columbia, Quickstep) to ToC this year. Whether or not thier performances have been TdF worthy, the names they sent shouts loud and clear which race is more important to them and their sponsors. They are already competing with the Giro.


You're not seriously buying the "Next GT" line are you?

Once LL, LA, DZ etc have retired the ToC will go the way of the TdG. Maybe not immediately but it will not survive more than a couple of further editions. At best it will trundle on as an easy alternative to the Giro, but it will never oust the Giro. If the Vuelta falters that is the ToC's only hope of GT status, but even that is a very long shot.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

Marc said:


> Umm...try last year-when EVERY rider in the peloton at the Giro was "training for the TdF", and NO ONE was interested in actually racing.


Last year's Giro was pretty good actually, lots of great riders made an effort. Di Luca and Menchov's battle was engrossing. Sastre, Menchov Di Luca all got two stage wins, Basso and Pelezotti were both racing for real. The time trial to Cinqua terre time trial was amazing.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

den bakker said:


> what does it matter when the riders show up with a beer cooler and a beach towel?
> Cancellara as number 16 in a TT pretty much sums it up.
> But sure, ToC was a great place for autograph hunters.


I agree completely. When the defending TT World Champion loses that much time to Michael Rogers and Tony Martin, it says volumes. This race is almost like the Pro Bowl. Sure the NFL's greatest are there, but do they care if they win? Andy Scheck being dropped on cat 2&3 climbs by US domestic riders. Give me a break. It is vacation for them.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

ToC = Training rides
Giro = the Real Grand Tour

[/EOA]


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

ultimobici said:


> You're not seriously buying the "Next GT" line are you?
> 
> Once LL, LA, DZ etc have retired the ToC will go the way of the TdG. Maybe not immediately but it will not survive more than a couple of further editions. At best it will trundle on as an easy alternative to the Giro, but it will never oust the Giro. If the Vuelta falters that is the ToC's only hope of GT status, but even that is a very long shot.


I disagree. ToC certainly survived Lance's 1st retirement well and grew while he was away. There is a crop of young Americans coming up that have possibly more talent than the current anchors (Taylor PHinney, Tejay VAnGardeen for instance) as well as foreign stars like Sagan and Martin. Whether or not this becomes a GT I don't know any better than you but historically the Giro has done poorly at protecting it's brand. If it weren't for the Pro Tour dragging it back to where it's been for the past few years it'd be a 3 week Itallian club race by now. Call me patriotic but I don't see ToC making those mistakes.


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## ksanbon (Jul 19, 2008)

coop said:


> The large police presence probably scared most of the immediate population away.


I'm guessing you didn't see the telecast of the Lakers' Championship parade last year.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

I have really enjoyed following this race around. Yesterday at the TT I saw lots of people enjoying themselves at what I am certain was their first bike race of any sort. I talked to 3 cancer survivors with Livestrong bracelets who were attending because they wanted to see "what Lance does.: Anything that gets more people interested in the sport is great with me. Let the tifosi argue about the Giro over their espresso, I'm headed out to ride Mulholland and then find a nice shade tree and enjoy the stage!


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## ksanbon (Jul 19, 2008)

den bakker said:


> what does it matter when the riders show up with a beer cooler and a beach towel?
> Cancellara as number 16 in a TT pretty much sums it up.
> But sure, ToC was a great place for autograph hunters.


You have to start somewhere. It shows that ToC has the sponsors sold. Now the organizers need to give the riders a greater incentive to compete.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

The racers are competing, very hard in fact. The climb to Big Bear is not steep and yet the pace whittled the pack down to ~20 riders. In pro racing that is the definition of hard. The pack's size is also greatly reduced. Those riders did not leave out of boredom.

Are we watching the same race?


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

davidka said:


> The racers are competing, very hard in fact. The climb to Big Bear is not steep and yet the pace whittled the pack down to ~20 riders. In pro racing that is the definition of hard. The pack's size is also greatly reduced. Those riders did not leave out of boredom.
> 
> Are we watching the same race?


No we're watching the Giro... Did you see how many thousands of people were on the slopes of the of the Zoncolan, watching Basso kill the field? Thats' exciting, that racing!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Kaleo said:


> No we're watching the Giro... Did you see how many thousands of people were on the slopes of the of the Zoncolan, watching Basso kill the field? Thats' exciting, that racing!


Euorsport estimates put the crowd on the Zoncolan @ 500-750k.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

What is the point of putting epic climbs in a race then give the pack 20km after to catch the guys who had the stones to attack. DZ, LL, and MR should be way ahead of the field starting at the Santa Cruz stage. When they got caught(almost), they figures why bother. Just maintain the status quo and wait for the TT to figure out the winner. Honestly the race up till yesterday was decided by the time bonuses for winning stages. The high point of the race for me has been their web site actually works somewhat compared to the limp CSC website of years past. It still doesn't track the riders correctly, but the video is decent.


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## stealthman_1 (May 2, 2004)

I watched the Galbier/Alp d'Huez stage of the 2003 TdF last night after the time trial. Two different sports entirely. Vs. 1 to 2 hours of coverage really sucks. A stage race should be watched as it unfolds not turned into a highlight reel and a finish. God France is beautiful in July!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spookyload said:


> What is the point of putting epic climbs in a race then give the pack 20km after to catch the guys who had the stones to attack. DZ, LL, and MR should be way ahead of the field starting at the Santa Cruz stage. When they got caught(almost), they figures why bother. Just maintain the status quo and wait for the TT to figure out the winner. Honestly the race up till yesterday was decided by the time bonuses for winning stages. The high point of the race for me has been their web site actually works somewhat compared to the limp CSC website of years past. It still doesn't track the riders correctly, but the video is decent.


he he, ask Nibali about those stupid finishes with a descent after the climb


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> I thought the Big Bear stage was pretty good actually.


 Ditto


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## philoanna (Dec 2, 2007)

I think comparing The Giro to the ToC is much like comparing apples to oranges. Now comparing the Giro to the Tour is a fun conversation. Just because Lance says the Tour is the biggest and hardest race in the world doesn't make it true. Look at Simoni's comment about todays climb which basically says that the easy parts of the climb are harder that anything in the Tour.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

ultimobici said:


> You're not seriously buying the "Next GT" line are you?
> 
> Once LL, LA, DZ etc have retired the ToC will go the way of the TdG. Maybe not immediately but it will not survive more than a couple of further editions. At best it will trundle on as an easy alternative to the Giro, but it will never oust the Giro. If the Vuelta falters that is the ToC's only hope of GT status, but even that is a very long shot.


The assumption you are making here is that once those guys will retire there will be nobody taking their place. And that there will be no US or other English-speaking countries based teams and sponsors. If anything, the momentum of the past decade indicates otherwise.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

philoanna said:


> I think comparing The Giro to the ToC is much like comparing apples to oranges. Now comparing the Giro to the Tour is a fun conversation. Just because Lance says the Tour is the biggest and hardest race in the world doesn't make it true. Look at Simoni's comment about todays climb which basically says that the easy parts of the climb are harder that anything in the Tour.


I agree that Giro and Vuelta both have harder climbs than the Tour. Simoni is a poor person to ask about the Tour as he has never done anything there on the climbs. The Gavia is a climb is a perfect example. 

The Tour has the prestige because ASO has done a great job at marketing the race to the public and managing a strangle hold on entry. It is almost like they want you to beg for a spot.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

I think the only reason there is even any comparison going on is because they are happening simultaneously. That climb today was horrendous at the Giro.

Contrast that with today's ToC circuit. I rode it twice this morning without getting my heart rate above about 120 on Mulholland. And I'm a 41 year old beer lover with a BMI of 30. The lads will fly up that thing.

So as has been said many times already, apples and oranges. California is a beautiful place for a bike race, though!


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

ksanbon said:


> I'm guessing you didn't see the telecast of the Lakers' Championship parade last year.


But for that they knew what was going on, most the cycling unfriendly population of downtown saw barriers, police, and men in tights and drove the other way:blush2:


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## ksanbon (Jul 19, 2008)

davidka said:


> The racers are competing, very hard in fact. The climb to Big Bear is not steep and yet the pace whittled the pack down to ~20 riders. In pro racing that is the definition of hard. The pack's size is also greatly reduced. Those riders did not leave out of boredom.
> 
> Are we watching the same race?


You're right. I should have said that the organizers need to give *all* of the riders a greater reason to compete. Winning this race doesn't mean much to the big names.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

These threads are funny. In general you have 2 groups of people amongst the cycling fans:

Fans of the Giro, hate the ToC
Fans of both races.

FoG: The Giro is the bestesest!
FoB: Yes its a great race, but its great having a stage race to watch live in the US with big names, even if it is just a training ride.
FoG: NO way man! ToC sucks! Giro is King! Let me start a thread just to say how much it sucks!
FoB: yeah, whatever, but I'll still going to enjoy the ToC (and the Giro).

I don't think anyone has said the ToC is a better race. I know last year and the year before, everyone on both sides was complaining about how fast the Giro was spiralling downhill, fast. I'm glad to see that opinions of the Giro are changing for the better.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

the last stage was very good especially for a "circuit" stage, rogers was put in a position to defend against his rivals and isolated, and attacked multiple times....

Chad


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

grrrah said:


> These threads are funny. In general you have 2 groups of people amongst the cycling fans:
> 
> Fans of the Giro, hate the ToC
> Fans of both races.
> ...


I don't know, I found last year's edition of the Giro pretty exciting too with the epic battles going on between DiLuca and Menchov. The fact that LA was there was just icing, nobody really expected him to do anything. I only read about the ToC in magazines months later... thought it was novel?


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Hi grrrah,

Is there a group that found the ToC exciting or even ...err.....interesting?


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## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

Even Johan said the ToC will never be a big race, especially in May, because most of the Euro pros don't want to deal with the travel time and interrupt their training schedule. Most riders are there because their teams want them there. Most teams are there because of sponsorship deals.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

albert owen said:


> Is there a group that found the ToC exciting or even ...err.....interesting?


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

albert owen said:


> Hi grrrah,
> 
> Is there a group that found the ToC exciting or even ...err.....interesting?


I enjoyed stage 6 & 8. I'd rather be watching the Giro, but I get Versus and do not get US.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Face it, these days there's the classics and the Tour. Everything else, including the Giro and Vuelta, are secondary. Mostly Italians want to win the Giro, or Aussies who have given up trying to beat Contador, and mostly Spaniards want to win the Vuelta. Do you think Wiggins cares about winning the Giro? He's there building for the Tour (like most riders used to do before they could elect not to ride it).


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## Todd_H (Nov 20, 2009)

I thought last years ToC was more entertaining. Cancellara winning the prologue, Mancebo wins in the rain with Nibali chasing and Levi on Bonny Doon, all very exciting. The Giro is always awesome. 

For some reasons it would suck, but in the end I feel the ToC needs ProTour status. I heard many interviews where riders poo poo'd the ToC and the number of abandons given the good weather had to be embarrassing for the organizers.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I thought the California weather revisionism from Phil Liggett was quite entertaining. In my recollection there was some rain on stage 1, awful rain on stage 2, and significant rain on parts of stage 3 (especially the part where I was!). The stage 3 rain was completely redacted from the daily Versus coverage, not even mentioned once. By the end of the week Phil was alluding to a "spot of rain" on the Santa Rosa stage interrupting a week of blissful California sunshine. My guess is that Phil is personally sponsored by the CA Travel & Tourism Commission ...


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

albert owen said:


> Hi grrrah,
> 
> Is there a group that found the ToC exciting or even ...err.....interesting?


yes, and a pretty big one. I guess we know which group you fall into.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

After watching it all, I thought it was alright. Definitely not the most epic races of all times, but good nonetheless. 

It would have been nice if we had more coverage on day 2, the results of day 3 didn't get stopped for hockey, and if there were more true hilltop finishes. I think the UCI teams did fairly well and the pro continental teams tried their best. 

I understand that Versus has a lot of commercials, but we can't forget that these are often the people sponsoring the race....and if you DVR it, you can fast forward.


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## Shaggybx (Feb 2, 2008)

ukbloke said:


> I thought the California weather revisionism from Phil Liggett was quite entertaining. In my recollection there was some rain on stage 1, awful rain on stage 2, and significant rain on parts of stage 3 (especially the part where I was!). The stage 3 rain was completely redacted from the daily Versus coverage, not even mentioned once. By the end of the week Phil was alluding to a "spot of rain" on the Santa Rosa stage interrupting a week of blissful California sunshine. My guess is that Phil is personally sponsored by the CA Travel & Tourism Commission ...


You know, watching the TOC felt like watching a come to California commercial.I enjoyed the race,felt it could of been planned better.I was really disappointed the way the Big Bear stage ended on the flats.Can you give me one uphill finish,those are always exciting.
Too many commericals too,every 5 minutes,then 3 minutes of commercials.
I'm sick of that Radio Shack commercial


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

spade2you said:


> I understand that Versus has a lot of commercials, but we can't forget that these are often the people sponsoring the race....and if you DVR it, you can fast forward.


That's what I do. If you take out the intro, the recap, the commercials, the rider/sponsor features and other cruft you get about 1 hour of live race coverage in a 2 hour show. The temptation with a DVR is to further fast forward the "dull" parts but the risk is that you can reduce the entire program to mere minutes!

This was the first time for me where the on-line experience completely outclassed the TV coverage. The tour tracker had great quality video and audio with few drop-outs. There were no commercials at all so you get to see everything. For example, the descent on Stage 8 on laps 3 and 4 was shown almost in full on-line, but butchered to almost nothing on the TV due to commercials. You can't hit the fast forward button so you get to soak it all in and enjoy it at its own pace. It was a shame that they didn't show video for the whole of each stage this way, even if it was with no commentary for the parts that didn't line up with the TV coverage.


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## UGASkiDawg (Jun 23, 2008)

No question...ToC sucked....the Giro now this is what stage racing should be like.


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## vandalbob (Dec 13, 2001)

*Decent Racing*

Really enjoyed the last stage. I thought that was some very good racing by Hincapie, Hejsdal, Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Horner, Popo, and Rogers. Exciting last lap that's for sure.


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## Wborgers (Oct 6, 2008)

Yeah- Went to a stage, kinda followed pieces but the Giro has just grabbed me this year- no contest and boring is pretty much spot on-


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## robbyracer (May 30, 2007)

Bring the TT back to Solvang. The LA course looked like a snooze......


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## ProRoad (Oct 13, 2008)

Just so happens that the Giro is the best in many years. TOC was shot very well by the French crew that AEG hired. I shot the TT and the part of the last stage (for my show on Mike Friedman), I was so bored I went home to watch on TV. My mistake, I should have been on the climb, not the finish line. What's with all the closed off VIP areas?? Oh yeah, $40.000 per tent.

(just to clarify, Mike wasn't boring, It's just that the race came by every 45 minutes, more lifestyle expo till next lap, and that much heavy handed security is a bummer even for media)


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## psychorider (Nov 12, 2009)

Overall the TOC was okay. TV coverage sucked, but when I watched it online it was actually much more enjoyable. The TOC has the potential to eventually grow into one of the better races, as the organizers build on their experiences and continue to draw more support. Pro cycling has enough of a presence in California that I really hope that the TOC grows.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

Ive been enjoying both races as much as possible, but I gotta chime in again about the bias in these discussions. I'd love to have a level headed discussion about the best aspects of both races, but that's not happening, so I just gotta rant.

This last stage of the ToC was pretty damn good racing amongst the podium finishers. Lots of Giro fans crapping on it that was boring and predictable, no one cares but Levi, blah blah blah. Fine, whatever.

Now lets take Stage 15 of the Giro (putting flame suit on). The finish up the Zoncolan (yes I'm going there). It is an amazing stage on what has been a crazy good Giro. But in the Stage 15 thread, everyone is drooling over how epic that stage was. Yes, it was a great stage and I enjoyed watching it, but there wasn't very much action going on. Typical breakaway, Liquigas setting a fast pace to bring the gap down and to launch Basso, with Cadel and others following and slowly fading away and Basso pedals away for the win. Thats it. Not really any attacking, just damn good pace riding.

If this exact profile, action, and win happened at the ToC, everyone (even ToC fans) would be crying how boring it was despite the scenery and crowds.

And vice versa, if the action that happened in Stage 8 of the ToC happened at the Giro, everyone would be going nutz and having orgasms on their tv sets.

alright, end rant and back to enjoying the Giro on the DVR. Just glad I was able to enjoy the ToC for what it is, and nothing more than that.

Oh, and feel free to crap all over the VS coverage and commercials. I agree.


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## ksanbon (Jul 19, 2008)

Jens was here and no one interviewed him. Bummer!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

grrrah said:


> Ive been enjoying both races as much as possible, but I gotta chime in again about the bias in these discussions. I'd love to have a level headed discussion about the best aspects of both races, but that's not happening, so I just gotta rant.
> 
> This last stage of the ToC was pretty damn good racing amongst the podium finishers. Lots of Giro fans crapping on it that was boring and predictable, no one cares but Levi, blah blah blah. Fine, whatever.
> 
> ...


The draw of the Zoncolon was the absolute absurdity of the climb itself. I mean, c'mon. 10k of 13-14% gradients? Max gradients of 22%? The best in the pro peloton using compacts and 29 tooth cogs? 

It's like watching a circus: it's so utterly absurd, so ridiculous that you have to be excited for it. It was a beautiful climb, beautiful region, gorgeous scenery, and a fantastic crowd. It was great to watch the group whittle down from 7 to 2 by the 3k mark, and it was amazing watching the suffering and fighting to keep going.

On contrast, we could watch Sagan win another sprint. Ho hum.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> The draw of the Zoncolon was the absolute absurdity of the climb itself. I mean, c'mon. 10k of 13-14% gradients? Max gradients of 22%? The best in the pro peloton using compacts and 29 tooth cogs?
> 
> It's like watching a circus: it's so utterly absurd, so ridiculous that you have to be excited for it. It was a beautiful climb, beautiful region, gorgeous scenery, and a fantastic crowd. It was great to watch the group whittle down from 7 to 2 by the 3k mark, and it was amazing watching the suffering and fighting to keep going.
> 
> On contrast, we could watch Sagan win another sprint. Ho hum.


I agree with you 100%, and definately enjoyed watching it as well as the entire giro so far. 

My only point (well 2 points) was that if that same profile and result (i.e. a team pacing their leader, then he riding everyone off his wheel) happened in the ToC, half the people hear would say how boring and predictable the stage was. And on the flip side, if the action of Stage 8 of the ToC would have been one of the most epic stages in the past decade if it happened at the Giro.

People (maybe not you, but definately others) think that just because we also are enjoying the ToC, that for some reason we think the Giro sucks or is not as good. Its like they have hurt feelings because we are cheating on the Giro. Some people seem to be butthurt by its increasing success.

I don't think anyone has ever said the ToC was a better race (better field on paper, maybe) but just because its the 2nd best race in May doesn't mean its not worth watching. I'll be the first to admit that some of the ToC stages were boring, but some were pretty darn good for a TdF training race. Others will rip the race no matter what just because its in America or because its at the same time as the Giro.


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

grrrah said:


> Ive been enjoying both races as much as possible, but I gotta chime in again about the bias in these discussions. I'd love to have a level headed discussion about the best aspects of both races, but that's not happening, so I just gotta rant.
> 
> This last stage of the ToC was pretty damn good racing amongst the podium finishers. Lots of Giro fans crapping on it that was boring and predictable, no one cares but Levi, blah blah blah. Fine, whatever.
> 
> Now lets take Stage 15 of the Giro (putting flame suit on). The finish up the Zoncolan (yes I'm going there). It is an amazing stage on what has been a crazy good Giro. But in the Stage 15 thread, everyone is drooling over how epic that stage was. Yes, it was a great stage and I enjoyed watching it, but there wasn't very much action going on. Typical breakaway, Liquigas setting a fast pace to bring the gap down and to launch Basso, with Cadel and others following and slowly fading away and Basso pedals away for the win. Thats it. Not really any attacking, just damn good pace riding.


That's weird, because I saw Evans attack unsuccessfully and Basso attacked more than once before the last one stuck. It was attacks that got Evans and Basso isolated in the first place. Granted, the steepness of the road made it look less like a bursting attack than some of us may expect, but there were definite bursts rather than mere pace riding.


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## viciouscycle (Aug 22, 2009)

From the little that I was able to watch it was like everyone ( the top 3-4)were riding NOT to lose instead of riding to WIN. Crap..hammer off the front and try to win even if you come up a little short. :idea:


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

nate said:


> That's weird, because I saw Evans attack unsuccessfully and Basso attacked more than once before the last one stuck. It was attacks that got Evans and Basso isolated in the first place. Granted, the steepness of the road made it look less like a bursting attack than some of us may expect, but there were definite bursts rather than mere pace riding.


Yeah, I noticed Evans' unsuccessful attack. I thought Basso was riding a pretty consistent (and amazing) pace the whole time though. Don't get me wrong though. I thought it was a great stage. 

Viscous - reffering tot he ToC? I thought only Rogers was doing that on the stage 6 and 8. Understandably so since he was leading, but DZ and Levi were definately attacking to win.


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

By the way, who did win ToC?


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

Kaleo said:


> By the way, who did win ToC?


Michael Rogers


unless this is sarcasm...

Chad


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## smcnees (Aug 5, 2008)

I'll step into defend the TOC a little here. My wife and I flew down from Seattle and chased stages 5-8. What an amazing experience. If a race that attracted this level of talent didn't exist, I'm not sure I'd ever get to see anything like it. Traveling to Europe is just too cost/ time prohibitive for us right now. Let's look at the flip side of this race not existing: 1) The Euro pros would have no reason (other than maybe the Tour of Missouri) to come here and 2) The American pros would have no reason to reside and/or train here if all their races were in Europe. After experiencing the electricity of the crowds and seeing the effort put forth by the riders wherever we were on the race course, I'm damn happy that the TOC exists. The energy level may not have been evident in the broadcast, but trust me, it was there. TV coverage will never be perfect, regardless of the sporting event.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

nevermind


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Today's stage at the Giro was so tedious that it was almost 50% as boring as the ToC's most interesting stage.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

if you don't like the ToC then don't watch it.


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## robbyracer (May 30, 2007)

I'm still stoked there is a top level race in my home state. I was really stoked when it stopped in my home town of San Luis Obispo. Hopefully that happens again. I think it was '05 where they actually finished and started again here. It was cool to get to walk around the start area. I chatted with a couple riders and team guys, wished them luck for the day and then watched them roll on to Solvang. =)
I <3 the ToC and hope it continues for many years.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

albert owen said:


> Today's stage at the Giro was so tedious that it was almost 50% as boring as the ToC's most interesting stage.


please leave a spoiler warning, or keep it to the day's Giro stage thread. I'm still waiting to get home and watch it later. Let me experience the tediousness on my own.


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## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

I like the ToC, believe me, I do. Last year, and years prior, it was really epic to see something prior to the grand tours, but with grand tour riders participating. I do think that moving the ToC to May right smack in the middle of the Giro is like doing a simulcast of the TV show Glee with the finale to Dancing with the Stars As mentioned earlier, the difference is so glaring - the intensity, the attacks, the routes, the drama, not to mention the coverage, the Giro is just head and shoulders above ToC especially when you could literally compare them side by side. Should've left the ToC schedule before the Giro, people would appreciate it more, and it would be a natural build-up to the Giro, and (in both races) we'll see a wider diversification of riders, which would have both ToC types, and Giro types. Now they're splitting the pro pool into the ToC riders and the Giro riders, and we're comparing a still young race (ToC) to an establishment (Giro) - I think too much of a "good" thing (Giro and ToC in the same race schedule) is not good. p.s. If the weather was a concern/motivation to moving the ToC to May, that's prolly water under the bridge (no pun intended), as we're probably having as much rain in May as we had in March:cryin:


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> if you don't like the ToC then don't watch it.



I didn't, but that's not because I didn't want to. Versus made next to impossible for me, and then being on the other coast, made it harder for me to catch. Although it just seems to lack pozzazz... Sorry, but the Giro is really a historic event, cycling wise, it's like putting another football game on with the Super Bowl is on. Not to be-little Levi and company, but it's perceived as a training ride, and for some the Giro is also seen as such. I know we're dying for a grand cycling event in this country, but we've tried before. Coors Classic, Tour De Trump, Tour of Georgia, Corestates... seems illogical that we don't have a major stage race.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> if you don't like the ToC then don't watch it.



LOL, that's an interesting arguement.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

55x11 said:


> No 7-day race will ever rival a three-week Grand Tour, but ToC move to May definitely paid off - the fear was that nobody will come, _and the lineup at this year's ToC is more impressive than ever_.


the irony is that if the TOC actually did manage to expand to a 2-3 week tour/grandtour all the big names who are there essentially training for bigger and better things would no longer turn up, as the racing would be too long/hard for their programme and specific goals later on, the TOC will never be anything other than a training exercise for the pro tour teams and will never be able to compete with the 3 european GT, hell even the Vuelta [traditionally thought of as a peaking exercise for the WC except for the spanish climbers]
is in danger and that has a 100 year history ffs!

the tour of oman or quatar have more of a chance of getting a 3 week GT status than the toc :thumbsup: and that not including the fact they are in Jan which is a real gap in the calendar one a rider was dedicated enough to peak for it, and still a 100% for the Giro or Vuelta

The tour of turkey is going to get GT status before the toc, that was a very interesting race in spectacular countryside and scenery/mountains
and even that hasnt got a chance at being a GT in reality, had no idea turkey was so lush and scenic before I saw this 

I will eat my hat..no a stack of hats! if it gets gt status in the next 10+ years


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

JohnHemlock said:


> I have really enjoyed following this race around. Yesterday at the TT I saw lots of people enjoying themselves at what I am certain was their first bike race of any sort. I talked to 3 cancer survivors with Livestrong bracelets who were attending because they wanted to see "what Lance does.: Anything that gets more people interested in the sport is great with me. Let the tifosi argue about the Giro over their espresso, I'm headed out to ride Mulholland and then find a nice shade tree and enjoy the stage!



Great post and great attitude! Both are good in their own way. Lots worse places than Mulholland I'd venture to say. Cheers!
________
HARMED BY PRILOSEC


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

grrrah said:


> Yeah, I noticed Evans' unsuccessful attack. I thought Basso was riding a pretty consistent (and amazing) pace the whole time though. Don't get me wrong though. I thought it was a great stage.
> 
> Viscous - reffering tot he ToC? I thought only Rogers was doing that on the stage 6 and 8. Understandably so since he was leading, but DZ and Levi were definately attacking to win.



An interesting thought is that all 3 of the podium finishers at the ToC will be nowhere near the podium at the Tour de france and or domestiques. Puts it into perspective eh?
________
BUY CHEAP VOLCANO VAPORIZER


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

rubbersoul said:


> LOL, that's an interesting arguement.


The ToC isn't (yet) and epic grant tour - it's a good 8 stage race and the best race in the US for a long time. It's silly to compare it to the Giro. Still, every day had attacks from mile 1, the US teams all really wanted to win, and the racing among the GC riders was good. People who don't think it was raced hard don't understand racing - look at the attrition in the field over the week (including protour riders like Cavendish and Renshaw who missed the timecuts and wanted to be around to help defend the lead). The race will continue to expand - already they are planning a true summit finish next year. Seems all good to me...


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

*These SHOULD BE the Stages for the Tour of California*

I felt the same way - underwhelmed - and started up a Facebook page with the above title - check it out and add some routes of your own. I like www.RidewithGPS.com to map them.

Yes, the race is headed in the right direction, and has its limitations (sponsor and fan support, etc.). But if it is to continue, and move up a level (now that it competes with the Giro) it must be an enjoyable race to watch, and a worthy race to win. 

The two domestic races I looked forward to most every year were the San Francisco Grand Prix and Georgia's fantastic mountain battle to Brasstown Bald. Both of those are history now, but they certainly didn't die for lack of drama.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> The ToC isn't (yet) and epic grant tour - it's a good 8 stage race and the best race in the US for a long time. It's silly to compare it to the Giro. Still, every day had attacks from mile 1, the US teams all really wanted to win, and the racing among the GC riders was good. People who don't think it was raced hard don't understand racing - look at the attrition in the field over the week (including protour riders like Cavendish and Renshaw who missed the timecuts and wanted to be around to help defend the lead). The race will continue to expand - already they are planning a true summit finish next year. Seems all good to me...


+1 on everything.

I'll be happy to see a few more summit finishes, but I can't deny that seeing the GC guys sprint it out was a bad thing and it kept the time gaps closer while making the teams work harder for their GC guy.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Sablotny said:


> I felt the same way - underwhelmed - and started up a Facebook page with the above title - check it out and add some routes of your own. I like www.RidewithGPS.com to map them.
> 
> Yes, the race is headed in the right direction, and has its limitations (sponsor and fan support, etc.). But if it is to continue, and move up a level (_now that it competes with the Giro_) it must be an enjoyable race to watch, and a worthy race to win.
> 
> The two domestic races I looked forward to most every year were the San Francisco Grand Prix and Georgia's fantastic mountain battle to Brasstown Bald. Both of those are history now, but they certainly didn't die for lack of drama.


The ToC doesn't compete with the Giro, it is merely at the same time. A Giro stage win is infinitely more prestigious than the ToC overall and will be for a good few decades to come. To believe that the ToC will ever be a GT is fantasy, pure and simple. 

Mondialisation is something that was started in the late 80's by the UCI under Verbruggen. Virtually every race that was started up outside of Europe during the season (Feb to October) died. The only races that survived are during the pre-season period (TDU) or early season (Lankawi).

Professional road cycling has been a European sport since the beginning. Would the Cowboys or Yankees travel to Europe to play mid-season fixtures? No, Baseball and American Football are American Sports and Cycling is European. 

The ToC is already as high as it should be with a 2.HC rating. The only categories above are Protour and GT. To make it Protour would force teams with no reason to be in the US to ride an event that has no relevance to their sponsors, and to give it GT status would be an unsustainable state of affairs not to mention the issue of what to cut to allow it to happen. Shorten the Giro, move the Tour cancel the Vuelta? Be realistic, it ain't going to happen.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

ultimobici said:


> Professional road cycling has been a European sport since the beginning. Would the Cowboys or Yankees travel to Europe to play mid-season fixtures? No, Baseball and American Football are American Sports and Cycling is European.
> 
> The ToC is already as high as it should be with a 2.HC rating. The only categories above are Protour and GT. To make it Protour would force teams with no reason to be in the US to ride an event that has no relevance to their sponsors, and to give it GT status would be an unsustainable state of affairs not to mention the issue of what to cut to allow it to happen. Shorten the Giro, move the Tour cancel the Vuelta? Be realistic, it ain't going to happen.


Cycling is not a European only sport. Most if it's most prestigious races are in Europe but if you look at the field of professional riders you can plainly see a bigger and bigger non-euro presence. If you will also notice, the biggest teams brought their biggest riders to ToC and they weren't forced to by the race's rating/status. They chose to because it was what their sponsors wanted. The ToC has it's place and it's far bigger now and will become bigger yet than you are recognizing.


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## nathanbal (Feb 23, 2009)

money talks and bullsh1t walks... the reality is, if the americans want GT status for ToC they'll get it by paying for it. the only reason pro riders were there were for sponsors. doesnt matter if its got nothing on the Giro (which it doesn't).


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

davidka said:


> Cycling is not a European only sport. Most if it's most prestigious races are in Europe but if you look at the field of professional riders you can plainly see a bigger and bigger non-euro presence. If you will also notice, the biggest teams brought their biggest riders to ToC and they weren't forced to by the race's rating/status. They chose to because it was what their sponsors wanted. The ToC has it's place and it's far bigger now and will become bigger yet than you are recognizing.


I didn't say it was exclusively European. All of it's most prestigious races are in Europe though and whilst the ToC will continue to develop it will never rival the GT's and Monuments.

The problem that the ToC has is that its place in the calendar puts it up against the Giro. Whilst several teams did send their stars to California, it was more so they could get some less stressful racing in their legs prior to the Tour rather than for the prestige of the win. Had that been the plan you'd have seen the Schlecks off the front rather than checking out some hottie's tits.

California has been in an invidious position since its inception. In February there is far less of a conflict with other major events but the weather is not good enough to allow access to the stunning mountain ranges. In May the weather is better but there is far less slack in the calendar. The only way ToC can grow much more in size is for an established race to be axed. Which one do you kill off? The Giro? The Dauphine? TdS? The only one that is lame enough is the Vuelta but who's going to drag their arse over to the US for a race in August/September if they're either riding the Worlds in Europe or finished for the season? No one I'd venture. Most Tour contenders are finished for the year. LA rarely rode anything after the Tour save the odd crit.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> [september+ Most Tour contenders are finished for the year. LA rarely rode anything after the Tour save the odd crit.


while I agree with pretty much everything you said in that post and infact I said similar in my own post further up before, LA was the exception rather than the rule, plenty of other tour riders of the same era did vuelta and tour or tour and giro, sometimes all three. I wouldn't base any points made, on how LA raced with pretty much the OCD compulsion of the tour and nothing else bar the dauphine where he actually was fighting for the win rather than helping other team mates who would pay him back in july


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

rubbersoul said:


> An interesting thought is that all 3 of the podium finishers at the ToC will be nowhere near the podium at the Tour de france and or domestiques. Puts it into perspective eh?


That nobody thinks they can beat Contador or Schleck, so they go all out at another race?

I imagine that if Basso, Evans and Sastre turned up for the tour on top form, there would be an amazing battle for 3rd or possibly 2nd on the tour podium, but that is too much to ask after such a demanding Giro.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

ultimobici said:


> The ToC doesn't compete with the Giro, it is merely at the same time. A Giro stage win is infinitely more prestigious than the ToC overall and will be for a good few decades to come. To believe that the ToC will ever be a GT is fantasy, pure and simple.
> 
> Mondialisation is something that was started in the late 80's by the UCI under Verbruggen. Virtually every race that was started up outside of Europe during the season (Feb to October) died. The only races that survived are during the pre-season period (TDU) or early season (Lankawi).
> 
> ...



but next year's Giro may start in NYC?:thumbsup: 

and the NFL does travel to Europe to play, baseball to Japan...Formula 1 to Texas next year.

I don't want to see it become a GT, but for it to grow and mature as a race.

Chad


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> The ToC is already as high as it should be with a 2.HC rating. The only categories above are Protour and GT. To make it Protour would force teams with no reason to be in the US to ride an event that has no relevance to their sponsors, and to give it GT status would be an unsustainable state of affairs not to mention the issue of what to cut to allow it to happen. Shorten the Giro, move the Tour cancel the Vuelta? Be realistic, it ain't going to happen.


+1 :thumbsup: I'd like to see the race become a bit harder and have a larger starting field, but I think increasing the length of the race to two or three weeks would kill it.


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

Hell,why not make a real GT and bring back RAAM as a real stage race across the country with a big a** mulit-million pot for the winner at the end of the season say late September. Now that would be a race. California is nice, but really see America...


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