# Spoke count/lacing advice?



## mrk_d (Apr 11, 2010)

I have been looking around for a while reading reviews/experiences with rims, hubs, etc. and have finally decided on Kinlin XR-270 rims and Alchemy hubs with DT Aerolite spokes for my next set of wheels. I currently have Dura-ace WH-7800 wheels that haven't been the most reliable, and I am pretty fed up with proprietary parts, broken spokes, and cracked rims. 

I am now debating what lacing pattern and spoke count I should use. I am pretty sure it will either be 20/24 or 24/28. I want something I can train and race on, but am willing to sacrifice a bit of durability for weight (and will probably use alloy nipples due to this consideration). I am 160 pounds, and tend to ride fairly smoothly although our roads have a decent amount of bad pavement, especially in the hills.

In terms of lacing, should I go radial front, or is 1x significantly stronger? Also, on the rear, I am thinking of doing 2x on both DS and NDS, but didn't know if there were any better alternatives. 

Thanks for any and all advice!


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

First off, nice choice on the hub/rim combination. That is one of our most popular wheelsets and should serve you quite well for everyday use. Concerning spoke count, you could get away with going 20/24, but since you ride over some rough pavement upping the count in the rear may not be a bad call. A 20/28 count would provide more than enough durability on the rough stuff, especially for your weight. Additionally, the XR270 is surprisingly stiff for a 440 gram rim. I think you will be quite impressed. Either way I do not think you will have a problem. If you go 28 in the rear I would suggest going 3x. This will make the spokes leave the hub at an angle more cohesive for transferring power. 24h on the other hand would be a bit better for 2x. 
Regarding the front wheel, the strength between radial and 1x is going to be identical. Lateral rigidity is exactly the same so it really just comes down to which pattern you find more aesthetically appealing.


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## mrk_d (Apr 11, 2010)

Zen Cyclery said:


> First off, nice choice on the hub/rim combination. That is one of our most popular wheelsets and should serve you quite well for everyday use. Concerning spoke count, you could get away with going 20/24, but since you ride over some rough pavement upping the count in the rear may not be a bad call. A 20/28 count would provide more than enough durability on the rough stuff, especially for your weight. Additionally, the XR270 is surprisingly stiff for a 440 gram rim. I think you will be quite impressed. Either way I do not think you will have a problem. If you go 28 in the rear I would suggest going 3x. This will make the spokes leave the hub at an angle more cohesive for transferring power. 24h on the other hand would be a bit better for 2x.
> Regarding the front wheel, the strength between radial and 1x is going to be identical. Lateral rigidity is exactly the same so it really just comes down to which pattern you find more aesthetically appealing.


Thanks for the detailed response! Sounds like 20/28 will be the way to go.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

20f 28r is good and solid, even for someone who weighs a lot more than you... front will still be stiffer and stronger than the rear. 

Go radial heads out on the front... 3x rear is good.


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## Marin Maniac (Mar 28, 2009)

Sorry to hi jack this thread, but I was wondering if a wheel builder could point me in the direction of a suitable lacing pattern for a HED Belgium 24/28 DA 7900 CX ray build.

I was hoping to go for 2x on both. Would this be advisable with my weight at around 95kg?

Thanks.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Marin Maniac- For the front wheel a 2x pattern would be just fine. That pattern up front definitely gives the wheel a more 'heavy duty" look which I admit I quite like. For the rear wheel, 2x would work but you may be better off going with 3x. The angle at which the spokes leave the hub is a bit more power efficient on a 3x than 2x at 28 hole count. If you were running 24h rear, it would be a different story though. You could always do 3x DS/NDS. Or if you wanted to mix things up a bit and get "exotic", you could go with 3x DS and 1x heads out NDS. Thats a gorgeous lacing pattern as well.


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## Marin Maniac (Mar 28, 2009)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Marin Maniac- For the front wheel a 2x pattern would be just fine. That pattern up front definitely gives the wheel a more 'heavy duty" look which I admit I quite like. For the rear wheel, 2x would work but you may be better off going with 3x. The angle at which the spokes leave the hub is a bit more power efficient on a 3x than 2x at 28 hole count. If you were running 24h rear, it would be a different story though. You could always do 3x DS/NDS. Or if you wanted to mix things up a bit and get "exotic", you could go with 3x DS and 1x heads out NDS. Thats a gorgeous lacing pattern as well.


***DOFTS CAP***

Many thanks.

I had a funny feeling 3x for the rear would be recommended.

You wouldn't happen to have any pictures for wheels laced 3x DS and 1x NDS? In terms of stifness how would that lacing pattern compare to a standard 2x or 3x?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Here are a few pictures of a 1x NDS/3x Rear. Sorry about the patchy photos. This is a Kinlin XR270 Rim with White Industries H2/H3 hub laced via Cxrays. 
Now regarding your question, this is not usually a pattern I would be first to choose for a large rider. This particular customer is quite a bit lighter and liked the aesthetics of the 1x NDS. Now, all though it may not be quite as stiff as 3x, the tension NDS on this particular wheel is a bit higher than a 3x NDS lacing would be due to the fact that the heads are laced out. Realistically, you would probably not be able to notice the difference in stiffness when comparing both on the road.


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## Marin Maniac (Mar 28, 2009)

Relatively speaking compared to the 24h Ritchey rear wheel I'm riding at the moment, I'm sure any of those lacing patterns would be significantly stiffer. 

Zen, have you by any chance got any pictures of 3x 28h wheels knockin about?


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Always am curious as to pushing high spoke counts. I am 200lbs and ride every day on every surface imaginable (include occasional bunny hop over tracks and pot holes) on Reynolds Assaults for 4700 miles and have never had to true them a single time - 20/24 spoke count on full carbon rim. Clarification would be appreciated as to why push anything over 20/24 on a good quality rim.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

MCF said:


> Always am curious as to pushing high spoke counts. I am 200lbs and ride every day on every surface imaginable (include occasional bunny hop over tracks and pot holes) on Reynolds Assaults for 4700 miles and have never had to true them a single time - 20/24 spoke count on full carbon rim. Clarification would be appreciated as to why push anything over 20/24 on a good quality rim.


With alloy wheels it's nice to be able to keep riding after you put a slight bend in (probably after opening a brake quick release, and occasionally after making adjustments with a spoke wrench)


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

MCF said:


> Always am curious as to pushing high spoke counts. I am 200lbs and ride every day on every surface imaginable (include occasional bunny hop over tracks and pot holes) on Reynolds Assaults for 4700 miles and have never had to true them a single time - 20/24 spoke count on full carbon rim. Clarification would be appreciated as to why push anything over 20/24 on a good quality rim.


Because you're talking about pushing a splitting hairs amount of weight, just a few grams. You'd never notice. When a spoke breaks and you have to walk home though, you'll wish there was more spokes!


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Marin Maniac said:


> Relatively speaking compared to the 24h Ritchey rear wheel I'm riding at the moment, I'm sure any of those lacing patterns would be significantly stiffer.
> 
> Zen, have you by any chance got any pictures of 3x 28h wheels knockin about?


Here is a pic of a 28h 3x Enve 65 on an Alchemy ORC. I know its not really similar to what your looking at but it does give you a good idea of what 3x DS/NDS looks like.


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## Marin Maniac (Mar 28, 2009)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Here is a pic of a 28h 3x Enve 65 on an Alchemy ORC. I know its not really similar to what your looking at but it does give you a good idea of what 3x DS/NDS looks like.


Thanks Zen. I'm leaning towards 3x on the rear and 2x on the front. Is it possible to lace a DA 7900 hub radial on the front?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Marin Maniac said:


> Is it possible to lace a DA 7900 hub radial on the front?


Absolutely. Usually on higher spoke counts (ie 32 h) it is sometimes not suggested to do radial. But since your count is considerably lower than that you shouldn't have any issues. I would simply suggest to lace heads out (elbows in) for a radial pattern on that hub.


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## rwitte (Jul 26, 2004)

I apologize for another hijack, but I'm facing similar questions. Only I'm a bigger rider at 185-ish right now. My general plan is to do CK R45's laced to Stan's Alpha rims using either Aerolite or CX-Ray spokes. So what would be good for me? I was thinking 24/28 or being conservative with 28/32. Probably 3x, at least on the rear. Could I get away with 24/28? A little worried about the stiffness with that rim if I go less than 32 in the rear. Any thoughts from the experts appreciated. And just day to day riding, solo and hard group rides on generally sh!tty roads. Thanks. 

Randy


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

the Reynolds Assaults are a 46mm deep rim, laterally stonger than the Stan's Alpha rims (340). the reynolds since they are stronger don't need as many spokes to support the rider. deep rims are stronger than alum box rims while being the same weight. additional spokes on the alum rims are needed. if the alum rim were 46mm deep it could use fewer spokes but it would outweight the carbon rim. quality has nothing to do with it.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

rwitte said:


> I apologize for another hijack, but I'm facing similar questions. Only I'm a bigger rider at 185-ish right now. My general plan is to do CK R45's laced to Stan's Alpha rims using either Aerolite or CX-Ray spokes. So what would be good for me? I was thinking 24/28 or being conservative with 28/32. Probably 3x, at least on the rear. Could I get away with 24/28? A little worried about the stiffness with that rim if I go less than 32 in the rear. Any thoughts from the experts appreciated. And just day to day riding, solo and hard group rides on generally sh!tty roads. Thanks.
> 
> Randy


Randy,

Usually you would be just fine with a 24/28 but if the roads are as rough as you say they are you may be a bit better off going with the 32 in the rear. 24 up front would be just fine.


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## rwitte (Jul 26, 2004)

Thanks Zen! Best lacing on a 24 up front? Radial, 1x, 2x...is 3x even possible or is the angle of the spoke leaving the hub getting to extreme?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

rwitte said:


> Thanks Zen! Best lacing on a 24 up front? Radial, 1x, 2x...is 3x even possible or is the angle of the spoke leaving the hub getting to extreme?


For the front wheel, you should be able to do most lacing patterns. We usually try to stick to either radial or 1x heads out for the front wheel most times. You could choose to do a 2x or a 3x pattern up front but IMO I don't think those are quite as aesthetically appealing on a front wheel. Additionally, rigidity between a radial and 1x pattern will be extremely comparable. It really just depends on which one you like the look of more.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zen Cyclery said:


> For the front wheel, you should be able to do most lacing patterns. We usually try to stick to either radial or 1x heads out for the front wheel most times. You could choose to do a 2x or a 3x pattern up front but IMO I don't think those are quite as aesthetically appealing on a front wheel. Additionally, rigidity between a radial and 1x pattern will be extremely comparable. It really just depends on which one you like the look of more.


I have a Zen x1 heads-in and a BWW x1 heads-out plus a BWW radial heads-out and just for looks alone (as I'm sure anything else is immeasurable) I'll take either of the x1 lacings. x2 would be fine but x3 would be way over the top with 24h.


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## Marin Maniac (Mar 28, 2009)

One last question for ZEN. 

Looking at spokes, I'm 95kg. 

Could I get away with Laser's on the front and rear NDS with race on the DS, or should I not mess about and just go Race's all round. 

Should I just go brass nips all round?

Thanks


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## Marin Maniac (Mar 28, 2009)

Whoops, double post


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Marin Maniac said:


> One last question for ZEN.
> 
> Looking at spokes, I'm 95kg.
> 
> ...


Well, remember that spoke count will usually have a more drastic effect than spoke selection. However, I think that your choice should be price oriented. If your willing to drop $3 per spoke, the Cxrays would definitely be worth a look. It is much more aerodynamic than either the Race or the Laser due to an ovalized blade shape. Additionally, we have laced the Cxrays DS/NDS on 36h DH wheels with no problems at all. The durability is astounding. If your looking to save a few bucks somewhere, though, spokes are a great spot to start. Between the Races and Lasers, I would say go with the Laser just so that you can save some rotating weight. 
Regarding nips, brass is never a bad idea. Yes they are a tad heavier than alloy but well worth the added durability.


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## Marin Maniac (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks ZEN. 

The reason I was getting a bit flaky over the spokes is that my LBS only carry Race's and if I want CX's or Lasers I'm going to end up paying over the odds as I have to buy them by the box. 

I think I'm gonna gr them to tell me what lengths I need and I'll gt the CX's myself so I don't end with loads of spare spokes. 

I really appreciate all your advice. I just wish you were in he UK!


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## Marin Maniac (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks ZEN. 

The reason I was getting a bit flaky over the spokes is that my LBS only carry Race's and if I want CX's or Lasers I'm going to end up paying over the odds as I have to buy them by the box. 

I think I'm gonna gr them to tell me what lengths I need and I'll gt the CX's myself so I don't end with loads of spare spokes. 

I really appreciate all your advice. I just wish you were in he UK!


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Marin Maniac said:


> Thanks ZEN.
> 
> The reason I was getting a bit flaky over the spokes is that my LBS only carry Race's and if I want CX's or Lasers I'm going to end up paying over the odds as I have to buy them by the box.
> 
> ...


Definitely a good idea. There are multiple places you can buy single Cxrays as well. We get ours from Alchemy not only because Sarah and Jeremy are great to chat with, but because their inventory is stout.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Well, remember that spoke count will usually have a more drastic effect than spoke selection. However, I think that your choice should be price oriented. If your willing to drop $3 per spoke, the Cxrays would definitely be worth a look. It is much more aerodynamic than either the Race or the Laser due to an ovalized blade shape. Additionally, we have laced the Cxrays DS/NDS on 36h DH wheels with no problems at all. The durability is astounding. If your looking to save a few bucks somewhere, though, spokes are a great spot to start. Between the Races and Lasers, I would say go with the Laser just so that you can save some rotating weight.


To engage in a little bench racing, the moment of inertia difference between brass and alloy nipples in a wheel is about the same as the difference between 2.0/1.8 and 2.0/1.5 mm spokes in round or aerodynamic form.

64 2.0/1.5 spokes are 80-100g lighter than 2.0/1.8 depending on length.

64 alloy nipples are 40-45g lighter than brass but that weight is about twice the distance from the wheel's axis as the spokes' center of mass.



> Regarding nips, brass is never a bad idea. Yes they are a tad heavier than alloy but well worth the added durability.


How much does that really matter provided that the spokes are long enough to reach the slots (obviously an aluminum nipple doesn't have enough tensile strength to handle short spokes)? You can damage them with an improperly placed spoke wrench although that shouldn't happen until there's a bend in the rim and replacement is likely. Once you're turning the nipples they can be damaged if they're hard to turn but proper lubrication should avoid that.

I've been using the same alloy nipples on a 32 spoke set of Open Pro/Reflex clincher rims with 2.0/1.5 Revolutions except 2.0/1.8 Competition rear drive side for the last fifteen years at weights from 145-230 pounds with one front rim replacement and at least two rears. Lubricated at rebuild time with anti-seize on the threads and a drop of oil in the sockets. 110kgf front without a tire, 110kgf rear drive side with.

The first decade was in an arid environment, although the last three years have been in the San Francisco bay area where I'm not afraid of spring storms.

They've been problem free apart from the several I made twisted and non-square at the ends (after which they didn't spin freely on removal because they clamped the spoke) with an incompletely seated spoke wrench when making a bent rim ridable under street lights.


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*Most intellignet post yet. .*



TomH said:


> Because you're talking about pushing a splitting hairs amount of weight, just a few grams. You'd never notice. When a spoke breaks and you have to walk home though, you'll wish there was more spokes!


Agreed. I've never understood the stupidity of wheels built with less than 32 spokes and brass nipples. I'd venture to guess the wheels Eddy Merckx was winning tours on were heavier than anything people are riding now, but it didn't seem to slow him down.


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*Analogy. . .*



Drew Eckhardt said:


> 64 alloy nipples are 40-45g lighter than brass but that weight is about twice the distance from the wheel's axis as the spokes' center of mass.


Maybe, but it's a distributed mass, so it's useless as a metric for acceleration. I'd be willing to bet there is no one who could possibly notice the difference between brass nipples or alloy, until you go to true a few spokes and the nipple rounds off.


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