# Who do you think is clean?



## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Do you think anyone is racing clean at the ProTour level?

I think some are:
Erik Zabel (Even the folks that confessed said Zabel only tried it once)
David Millar (I believe he is repentant)
All French Riders (No results, very tough federation and laws in France)


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## alejovh1 (Mar 3, 2007)

probably Valverde, he seems out of juice!


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## bikeboy389 (May 4, 2004)

Einstruzende said:


> Do you think anyone is racing clean at the ProTour level?
> 
> I think some are:
> Erik Zabel (Even the folks that confessed said Zabel only tried it once)
> ...


Most likely Millar. He has SO much to lose.

Possibly French riders are pretty clean.

There are lots of others I'd like to HOPE are clean, but at this point I'm just hoping they retire soon so I never have to find out.

As for Zabel, I'm not really convinced by his "but I didn't inhale" confession.


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

iban mayo? he also out of juice...

and chris moreau for sure.. he was dropped big time..


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Einstruzende said:


> Do you think anyone is racing clean at the ProTour level?
> 
> 
> All French Riders (No results, very tough federation and laws in France)


Given the hijinks in the French testing labs, their uncomfortably close ties to ASO and the French papers, the fact they they in fact seemed to know whose samples they are working on (major issue)- the fact that they have failed to catch any French dopers is a massive failing of the system, not grounds for reassurance. 

The lack of French results stems more from the failing of certain French teams to join the modern era of training and equipment (_especially_ TT equipment and tunnel time- see i.e. C. Moreau), *very* poor team leadership, and a team culture which handsomely rewards mediocre performance, and frankly plenty of bad luck and the fact that many more countries are involved now. 

Start a new French team- run them like Discovery and CSC, put a smart aggressive no non-sense type like the Badger in charge, develop young talent regardless on country of origin (a rising tide lifts all boats), and you would have a winner within a decade.


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## snowman3 (Jul 20, 2002)

Einstruzende said:


> Do you think anyone is racing clean at the ProTour level?
> 
> David Millar (I believe he is repentant)
> )


I'd like to believe he's is truly anti-dope. Velonews reported he cried when told about Vino. So either he's a good impromptu actor or was showing real emotion. 

Other than that, I don't even try and think about who is/isn't clean. It takes too much energy. I enjoy watchig the race and the battles and don't want to have to 2nd guess each and every performance or stage win. So I try and ignore the doping as much as I can.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*DAve Z. and Hincapie..*

not because they're american, but because they so seldom win anything... 
and also seem quite fallible when they should be...ya know, like humans..

Levi is probably clean...he's just up against a doped up battalion of guys who want to win at whatever cost...


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

bahueh said:



> not because they're american, but because they so seldom win anything...
> and also seem quite fallible when they should be...ya know, like humans..
> 
> Levi is probably clean...he's just up against a doped up battalion of guys who want to win at whatever cost...


Have you ever looked at GH's chin? The elongation and thickening of his chin looks like a classic byproduct of HGH use. Futher, I have no confidence in anyone connected with Team Discovery when it comes to doping. Given all of the Postal/Discovery alumni who have been caught doping after they have left the team and the Andreu/Vaughters IM transcript from 2005, I believe that Discovery is a hotbed of doping whose only difference from other pro team hotbeds of doping is that Disco has figured out how not to be caught.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Depends on what you mean...I could believe that a lot of guys are not on epo or blood doping, but clean as in, not taking any banned substances...I bet 0% of the protour could say that.

The beautiful thing about cycling is how hard it is on the body and mind. Stimulants, hormones, pain-killers, and other pretty pedestrian drugs are all still regularly used, IMO.


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## gebbyfish (Apr 26, 2002)

Whoever is the "lantern rouge"! Hope they're not doping to attain that result.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

SilasCL said:


> I could believe that a lot of guys are not on epo or blood doping, but clean as in, not taking any banned substances...I bet 0% of the protour could say that.


 What is meant by "a lot" is debatable but that's pretty much my view of it too. Top guys are still doing whatever, but it's conceivable that a numbero in the peloton have given up on blood doping at this point.

Just checked out Ferrari's analysis of the 14th and 15th stages and it's clear that the top guys are still juiced to the gills - "After the climb up Col de Pailheres in 49' ( VAM=1481 m/h), on the final climb to Plateau de Beille Contador and Rasmussen were faster than Armstrong ad Basso in 2004: 44' with a VAM=1690 m/h for the first 2 today, versus the 45' of the Italo-american duo 3 years ago."

The next day on the Peyresourde Ras and Contador did 1744 m/h. Recovery? We don't need no freaking recovery!


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

*Cadel Evans*



Einstruzende said:


> Do you think anyone is racing clean at the ProTour level?
> 
> I think some are:
> Erik Zabel (Even the folks that confessed said Zabel only tried it once)
> ...


maybe...? I agree probably Millar, Zabel and the bulk of the french riders. I think a lot of the sprinters as well, but that might be because I just have it in my head that the drugs that improve sprinting have been around for awhile and the testing is reasonably sophisticated. But, then again, this is probably just wishful thinking on my part. There no doubt are a whole bunch of drugs that no one has figured out how to test for.

I agree with the other posts about Disco, I can't help but think that they just have the most sophisticated regime and can stay ahead of WADA etc.

Disheartening, isn't it?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I'm pretty sure I haven't done any performance enhancing drugs... then again I'd finish outside the time limit after the first day. And yes, i mean the Prologue.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

The only one I know for sure is not doped is the guy in the french Tour coverage TV opening graphics here in Quebec... But I drink a lot.


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## Ryano42 (Jul 21, 2006)

They would bust me at dope control for traces of IPA...


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> the fact they they in fact seemed to know whose samples they are working on (major issue)-


Based on what do you say they test known samples?


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## kidscientist (Jul 16, 2007)

i think that may be coming from the fact that, and someone i'm sure will correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe a tech involved in testing landis' samples last year admitted that the samples were clearly marked and they knew whose samples they were testing on. that and having people involved in the testing of both the A and B samples are two of the very flawed procedures in the testing of landis last year. not that it would change things, because who knows, but those are serious SOP violations that would never be tolerated in most labs.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> Given the hijinks in the French testing labs, their uncomfortably close ties to ASO and the French papers, the fact they they in fact seemed to know whose samples they are working on (major issue)- the fact that they have failed to catch any French dopers is a massive failing of the system, not grounds for reassurance.
> 
> The lack of French results stems more from the failing of certain French teams to join the modern era of training and equipment (_especially_ TT equipment and tunnel time- see i.e. C. Moreau), *very* poor team leadership, and a team culture which handsomely rewards mediocre performance, and frankly plenty of bad luck and the fact that many more countries are involved now.
> 
> Start a new French team- run them like Discovery and CSC, put a smart aggressive no non-sense type like the Badger in charge, develop young talent regardless on country of origin (a rising tide lifts all boats), and you would have a winner within a decade.




Very well said on all points.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

MarkS said:


> Futher, I have no confidence in anyone connected with Team Discovery when it comes to doping. Given all of the Postal/Discovery alumni who have been caught doping after they have left the team and the Andreu/Vaughters IM transcript from 2005, I believe that Discovery is a hotbed of doping whose only difference from other pro team hotbeds of doping is that Disco has figured out how not to be caught.


I completely agree.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Given the hijinks in the French testing labs, their uncomfortably close ties to ASO and the French papers, the fact they they in fact seemed to know whose samples they are working on (major issue)- the fact that they have failed to catch any French dopers is a massive failing of the system, not grounds for reassurance.
> 
> The lack of French results stems more from the failing of certain French teams to join the modern era of training and equipment (_especially_ TT equipment and tunnel time- see i.e. C. Moreau), *very* poor team leadership, and a team culture which handsomely rewards mediocre performance, and frankly plenty of bad luck and the fact that many more countries are involved now.
> 
> Start a new French team- run them like Discovery and CSC, put a smart aggressive no non-sense type like the Badger in charge, develop young talent regardless on country of origin (a rising tide lifts all boats), and you would have a winner within a decade.


Coolhand, before disputing the 'facts' you present in your argument...what do you say about the French longitudinal testing? Or the fact that there have been good riders on French teams, Mancebo for instance, but they happened to be outside the jurisdiction of that testing. Or that aside from your conspiracy theories about French labs, very few of these guys have actually tested positive. Most of the top riders who are out of the sport are out because of Puerto, which, as far as I remember, implicated not a single French rider with a French license.

Your theories are nice, but I think your tin foil hat is on a bit too tight.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

SilasCL said:


> Coolhand, before disputing the 'facts' you present in your argument...what do you say about the French longitudinal testing? Or the fact that there have been good riders on French teams, Mancebo for instance, but they happened to be outside the jurisdiction of that testing. Or that aside from your conspiracy theories about French labs, very few of these guys have actually tested positive. Most of the top riders who are out of the sport are out because of Puerto, which, as far as I remember, implicated not a single French rider with a French license.
> 
> Your theories are nice, but I think your tin foil hat is on a bit too tight.


Great point. I was trying to cook up a rebuttal but failed.

It interesting that no French riders were implicated in Puerto. Especially when pretty much every other big nation did have riders involved. France borders on the country for crying out loud


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Einstruzende said:


> Great point. I was trying to cook up a rebuttal but failed.
> 
> It interesting that no French riders were implicated in Puerto. Especially when pretty much every other big nation did have riders involved. France borders on the country for crying out loud


Well duh, obviously the french labs have an in-house doping program and since they're doing all the testing they skip right over it.

They must be accidentally mixing in some sedatives, because the peloton is really at two speeds...


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

SilasCL said:


> Coolhand, before disputing the 'facts' you present in your argument...what do you say about the French longitudinal testing? Or the fact that there have been good riders on French teams, Mancebo for instance, but they happened to be outside the jurisdiction of that testing. Or that aside from your conspiracy theories about French labs, very few of these guys have actually tested positive. Most of the top riders who are out of the sport are out because of Puerto, which, as far as I remember, implicated not a single French rider with a French license.
> 
> Your theories are nice, but I think your tin foil hat is on a bit too tight.


"facts" and "tin foil" nice. 

Anyway the theory behind the French program is decent, it is the implementation which is disastrous.

If you bothered to critically review even the neutral analysis of the Landis arbitration, two things are clear- WADA is way over their heads and the French labs have major, major problems with fundamental quality control and confidentiality issues. Add in the triad of the close ties between ASO, the Le equip and the lab- and things look bad. And rather then just go in and fix the problems, they have consistently tried to cover them up. 

This has led to the Landis affair being drawn out for a year or more. It should have been fixed back after the Hamilton mess. And the years of serious leaks out of the lab to Le Equip often before the rider or team was notified- I assume that was all tin foil too. If any of these are new to you- try google before posting again. 

T-mobile had the fancy testing this year, probably better then the French system and they still had a doper on board- and that was out of 25 riders. But the hundreds of French pros= no dopers.  

So too think no French riders or teams are doping is hilarious. Every country produces dopers-- except France. A country so anti-doping they joyously cheered Richard Vinerque after the Festina Affair. 

The French have not managed to catch any dopers, does not mean there are not any. Based on the preponderance of the evidence there are some, just like every other country and team-- so why aren't they catching them?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Plenty of bags have not been ID'ed yet.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Most of these longitudinal tests are on blood values and certain markers. Testosterone (like with Sinkewitz) will get through, and I'd be very surprised if French pros weren't doing all the same old school stuff that riders have been on since the 60's. But with the longitudinal testing in place, it's going to be much harder to blood dope and remain undetected. I don't see why the implementation has been poor...I've heard nothing of the sort in these forums before.

I don't know what L'equipe and ASO (admittedly owned by the same parent company) have to do with the French doping lab. Sure, leaks have come out, but I don't think that means they're rigging the testing.

I do have some problems with the issues presented in Floyd's hearing, and I no longer view the tests as infallible. An inept lab tech can screw things up, and we should wait for B samples before we rush to judgement. Maybe even wait until the full facts come out in a hearing. You make the leap that this means the lab is corrupt...when inept is a much simpler answer.


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## Lumbergh (Aug 19, 2005)

bahueh said:


> not because they're american, but because they so seldom win anything...
> and also seem quite fallible when they should be...ya know, like humans..
> 
> Levi is probably clean...he's just up against a doped up battalion of guys who want to win at whatever cost...


This is probably the correct answer - the guys off the back every day are prolly clean. But does winning races = doped? Signs seem to point to yes.


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## ECXkid04 (Jul 21, 2004)

Chris Horner? Personally, his performance in this year's Tour has been inspiring. I love the way the guy rides, one of the most unselfish riders in the Peloton. Anyone else think similarly?


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## GueroAz (Nov 9, 2006)

ECXkid04 said:


> Chris Horner? Personally, his performance in this year's Tour has been inspiring. I love the way the guy rides, one of the most unselfish riders in the Peloton. Anyone else think similarly?


I agree 100% with Chris Horner. I think there are several guys who don't dope. Levi, I bet is one of them. That guy has been consistently above average his whole career. He just seems to be missing that one thing that puts him over the top.

One poster mentioned Hincapie's elongated chin as a showing for HGH use, what about Jay Leno's chin? Does that guy take HGH?


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## Chris Oz (Oct 8, 2005)

The sprinters are possibly, the least likely to dope during the race. I would have thought that EPO and blood doping are unlikely to help much in the final sprint. Out of season may be a different matter. However as someone said before there has been a lot of effort put into detecting the drugs/mechanisms the sprinters use so they would be more risky to use.

edit. How often do you hear sprinters getting caught in the pro tours compared to other riders? I suppose that would be our metric.


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## LeDomestique (Jan 17, 2007)

I really, really, reallly hope Jens Voigt is clear. He's definitely one of my favorites and it'd hurt if he were not clean....


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Sadly, many of the riders in the peleton who seemed to be perpetuating this myth have either tested positive or been kicked out. I have raced on french teams (Cat2 equivalent, non Pro level) and they are quite modern, thank you. They also face considerably more stringent anti-doping controls than any other pro riders (save maybe those riding for Slipstream, CSC and T-mobile) ... Coolhand, you should really consider coming over to this side of the Atlantic to see how things really are before parroting tired old stereotypes propogated by dopers.


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## reikisport (Aug 16, 2006)

[
This has led to the Landis affair being drawn out for a year or more. It should have been fixed back after the Hamilton mess. And the years of serious leaks out of the lab to Le Equip often before the rider or team was notified- I assume that was all tin foil too. If any of these are new to you- try google before posting again. 

The French lab wasn't involved in the Hamiton case. It was the labs in Athens and in Madrid.


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

philippec said:


> Sadly, many of the riders in the peleton who seemed to be perpetuating this myth have either tested positive or been kicked out. I have raced on french teams (Cat2 equivalent, non Pro level) and they are quite modern, thank you. They also face considerably more stringent anti-doping controls than any other pro riders (save maybe those riding for Slipstream, CSC and T-mobile) ... Coolhand, you should really consider coming over to this side of the Atlantic to see how things really are before parroting tired old stereotypes propogated by dopers.


+23 


If there is any clean rider in the tour, it's a French rider. The way France approaches doping is the way that EVERY national sactioning body _should _approach doping, and it's probably the future. But honestly I think that most of them are like other sports, too affraid to do this, becasue they think it will hurt the legitimacy of their nations riders/teams.

As for everyone screaming about a French conspiracy theory, lay off the drugs.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Please explain in what way the implementation of the programme is disasterous? ... with relevant facts, not conjecture. Look, the French programme does not make the French more honest and the temptation to dope is quite high (see Virenque and Gaumont, among others in the pre- longitudnal control days) but the fact is that it makes it much more difficult to get away with the kind of doping that has proven to be prelevant in the peleton these days. If there were some drug that were reliably non-detectable by this approach, I fully expect that french riders would be on it (HGH for instance, despite its cost). But your conspiracy theory is off-base and reflects a poor understanding of what has been successfully undertaken in the fight against doping. Is it infallible? no -- and you rightly point out Sinkewitz - but this type of approach does work better than anything else out there - witness Gonchar getting caught out by T-Mob's programme.

What I detect is a clear distrust of the UCI-sanctioned tests as they pertain to the flying Mennonite. You are entitled to that view, but to say that what you perceive to be incompetence in this case taints the entire french anti-doping effort is wrong and sad.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I don't think anyone is clean. If they aren't cheating they aren't trying, and not trying at your job is pretty stupid. Maybe generous unemployment insurance in France makes them not care about staying employed but TUEs are just as popular in France as in other countries. Their testing may merit different methodologies for doping but there isn't a testing scheme in the world that can make people ride clean if they don't want to.


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

Thor and Gilbert are 2 clean stars.


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## ashpelham (Jan 19, 2006)

In spite of the way this Tour is unfolding, I believe that this could be the most clean tour we've seen in many years. Really. Three guys have been busted. One of them was out of competition when he was tested. I think it's possible that Vino felt this thing getting away from him, and transfused when he thought he still had a chance. The other guy was a moron. 

So, why do I think the peloton is cleaner this year than ever before? I just look at those overall GC standings. It's a steady mix of guys who seem to be having their best EVER tour, compared with a lot of guys who are seemingly doing a bit worse. Pereiro is one. But Horner is an example of a guy who, as I have witnessed with my own eyes, was the BEST domestically. I couldn't imagine anyone in the world better than he, the first time I saw him race in person. Could not conceive it. Turns out this year, with a clean, level peloton, the guy is pretty good after all, very high in the GC this morning.

THis is the last of the doping as we know it. If riders and doctors take it to another level, well, I guess we will see. But the old methods won't work anymore, and this sport it going to be clean finally. I suppose a guy or two could be busted each year, out of desperation or due to some mis-understanding regarding what they were taking.

Every year, in spite of strenuous testing in the Olympics, someone gets busted. Perhaps they are not all trying to cheat. Maybe, just maybe, some are trying to recover from injury, or prevent injury, or just simply receive bad advice. We aren't talking about rocket scientists here.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

I think George Hincapie, Millar, Levi, Contador are clean.

Popo as well.

Dave Z. 

Fuyu Li, Fumy Beppu


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Get a grip - Contador's aneurism was most likely a combination of a genetic defect and trying to pump jello through his veins. Saiz dictated his riders' positions, equipment, diet, training and was caught with a suitcase full of dope and cash. Please explain whom you think that was for.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Vino! :thumbsup:


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

ashpelham said:


> In spite of the way this Tour is unfolding, I believe that this could be the most clean tour we've seen in many years. Really. Three guys have been busted. One of them was out of competition when he was tested. I think it's possible that Vino felt this thing getting away from him, and transfused when he thought he still had a chance. The other guy was a moron.
> 
> So, why do I think the peloton is cleaner this year than ever before? I just look at those overall GC standings. It's a steady mix of guys who seem to be having their best EVER tour, compared with a lot of guys who are seemingly doing a bit worse. Pereiro is one. But Horner is an example of a guy who, as I have witnessed with my own eyes, was the BEST domestically. I couldn't imagine anyone in the world better than he, the first time I saw him race in person. Could not conceive it. Turns out this year, with a clean, level peloton, the guy is pretty good after all, very high in the GC this morning.
> 
> ...



You're making a lot of assumptions, for one that Horner was clean when he was racing domesticly, I'm not saying he was or he wasn't but your theory depends on it. Also, that Levi, Contador, Evans, etc aren't doping. 

And also, you say that the guys that are duking it out were the good but not the BEST riders before, while that is true, all of the BEST are gone, for one reason or another, Basso, Ullrich, Lance, Landis, whomever, you brought up Valverde, but I think he's on the same playing field as Vino, Levi, etc, he's obviously having a bad tour though. When you take all of the top competition out, you have to go down a notch. 

anyways, I hope you are right, but I'm unconvinced. I do think that this is a step in the right direction though, still a long way to go.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

philippec said:


> Vino! :thumbsup:


werd!!


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