# Latex Inner Tubes with a Full Carbon Wheel



## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

Does anyone know if there are any problems about running latex inner tubes within a full carbon clincher? Cheers Folks


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## rwatt (May 8, 2010)

I have had the same latex tubes in my carbon clinchers for almost a year now, no problems. I don't see why there would be?


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Same here...
Latex on Williams 50Cs with Vitt OC CX. No issues at all...


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I have heard a slight bit of buzz from random mechanics that latex will slightly corrode the carbon but I have never actually seen any evidence to back this up. I dont know if they were BSing me or not but you should be just fine.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Latex corrosion*



Zen Cyclery said:


> I have heard a slight bit of buzz from random mechanics that latex will slightly corrode the carbon but I have never actually seen any evidence to back this up. I dont know if they were BSing me or not but you should be just fine.


Knowing both the chemistyr of latex rubber, and the chemistry of carbon fiber epoxy composites, plus the fact that the composite is covered with a clear coat, I have a VERY hard time thinking this is anything other than an urban myth. I would suggest that those mechanics really are random, very random.


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

I just thought latex inner tubes were more sensitive to heat than common tubes. So it could be, in case of overheating the rim?


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

nicensleazy said:


> I just thought latex inner tubes were more sensitive to heat than common tubes. So it could be, in case of overheating the rim?


Nope. Ridden mine in the mountains several times and never even worried about any sort of overheating.

Pros don't worry about it, why should you? They ride carbon tubulars with latex tubes sew-in.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

nicensleazy said:


> I just thought latex inner tubes were more sensitive to heat than common tubes. So it could be, in case of overheating the rim?


From what I could find latex is good to ~ 140 F and butyl is good to ~ 250 F. Not really sure what "good" means but those temperatures were found in a few differenct sources. When I do my tire tests on PVC rollers which don't conduct heat very well the max temperature rise is ~ 40 F - I'd esimate that would be ~ 10 F on a flat surface. Not sure what temperatures might be experienced when braking for extended periods of time but apparently temperatures can get hot enough to soften tubular glue. The latex tube in a clincher wheel is in direct contact with the rim while the latex tube in a tubular tire is separated by the glue layer, base tape, and casing. This might be something to consider if you are thinking about the use of latex tubes in clincher tires when riding a course with some long and technical decents on a hot day ??


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

3 years + no issues. Go for it. Make sure your rim tape is in good shape though. Some OEM rim strips suck.


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## dadoflam (Jan 19, 2008)

I just got a set of Lightweight clinchers - rim stickers highlight two conditions of use - max tire pressure 116llbs and No latex tubes. No reasons given but I understand it is related to the affect of heat


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Jesus people, Coolhand and I have just said that we've had no issues. I'd be more worried about the fact that $3000 wheels have a 116psi limit...

I have an acquantance who rides his Reynolds DV46c wheels EVERYWHERE with zero issues.

Unless you are just LEANING on the brakes for extended periods of time, any heat created will quickly dissipate due to the air flowing over the rim surface. We're not talking about carbon rotors glowing orange here folks!


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

backinthesaddle said:


> Jesus people, Coolhand and I have just said that we've had no issues. I'd be more worried about the fact that $3000 wheels have a 116psi limit...
> 
> I have an acquantance who rides his Reynolds DV46c wheels EVERYWHERE with zero issues.
> 
> Unless you are just LEANING on the brakes for extended periods of time, any heat created will quickly dissipate due to the air flowing over the rim surface. We're not talking about carbon rotors glowing orange here folks!




Nicely put !


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Say what?*



dadoflam said:


> I just got a set of Lightweight clinchers - rim stickers highlight two conditions of use - max tire pressure 116llbs and No latex tubes. No reasons given but I understand it is related to the affect of heat


I can't imagine what possible reason they could give for not "allowing" latex tubes! 

As to heat buildup, I have descended a mountain pass (US-14, west side of the Bighorn Mountains, 22 miles/35 km) and my rims were very hot to the touch. I'm guessing in the range of 140F/60C. Whether this would be a problem for latex tubes, I don't know.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> I can't imagine what possible reason they could give for not "allowing" latex tubes!
> 
> As to heat buildup, I have descended a mountain pass (US-14, west side of the Bighorn Mountains, 22 miles/35 km) and my rims were very hot to the touch. I'm guessing in the range of 140F/60C. Whether this would be a problem for latex tubes, I don't know.


But yet you posted....


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

An interesting twist. I spoke with Carbon Sports today in Germany. They stated, do NOT run latex inner tubes in their full carbon clincher. Apparently becuase of the heat build up, the latex is more prone to a blow out. This was found out whilst extensive tests were conducted! So, now looking for a good light weight butyl inner tube. I was thinking Continental Race Light 28. Any suggestions folks?


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

Further info, both Campagnolo and Carbon Sports do not recommend latex inner tubes with a full carbon clincher. Also, I think Continental have stopped making a Latex inner tube.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

backinthesaddle said:


> Jesus people, Coolhand and I have just said that we've had no issues. I'd be more worried about the fact that $3000 wheels have a 116psi limit...
> 
> I have an acquantance who rides his Reynolds DV46c wheels EVERYWHERE with zero issues.
> 
> Unless you are just LEANING on the brakes for extended periods of time, any heat created will quickly dissipate due to the air flowing over the rim surface. We're not talking about carbon rotors glowing orange here folks!


you should google "anecdotal evidence." Glad to hear that your friend has no issues with his rims, but it takes more than n = 1 to make a valid inference about rim safety and heat. For one thing, you're wrong wrt heat dissipation being so rapid it does not have an effect on the rim. Rims typically heat in excess of 325 degrees during descents, enough to increase air pressure by 25 psi. That's enough to blow off a tire, and one reason why Zipp didn't make an all carbon clincher until recently - the numbers above are from Josh Poertner, Zipp's technical director. This sort of tire blowout happened on one of the rims discussed here in the latest carbon clincher review in Velonews.

You should also ask Reynolds how many delaminated rims they receive per year - you'd be surprised.


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

Zipp seems to be o.k. with latex tubes in their clinchers!
http://www.zipp.com/accessories/latex-inner-tube

and a quote from Velo News-
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...n-the-neighborhood_154336/attachment/img_7807

"While some carbon clincher wheel manufacturers warn against the use of latex tubes (this is a Campagnolo Hyperon), Zipp has found latex performs better than butyl in their tests. Photo: Nick Legan"


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## FSonicSmith (Jan 2, 2003)

FWIW, I think it was Michelin that stopped manufacturing latex tubes, though maybe Continental has too. There have been successful lawsuits against the manufacturers of latex tubes based on sudden blowouts and the allegation that the tubes are unsafe and prone to sudden blowout. As I understand it, the focus is upon the alleged strafe marks/scratches left on the surface of the tube from the manufacturing process on side of the tube where the seam is located (latex tubes all have an overlapped seam that butyl tubes do not). The manufacturers deny that these strafe marks are caused by the manufacturing process but they were settling the lawsuits for astronomical dollar figures rather than facing the prospect of letting a jury decide. I say all this second-hand and take it with a huge grain of salt. And on top of that, I happen to believe, FWLIW, that latex tubes are perfectly safe and that it is a shame that litigation has caused Michelin to decide that it is not worth the exposure to continue manufacturing the tubes.


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## dookie (Oct 1, 2007)

michelin latex tubes +
edge 65 & M5 c50 rims +
swissstop yellow pads +
10s of thousands of mountain miles =

no worries


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

FSonicSmith said:


> FWIW, I think it was Michelin that stopped manufacturing latex tubes, though maybe Continental has too. There have been successful lawsuits against the manufacturers of latex tubes based on sudden blowouts and the allegation that the tubes are unsafe and prone to sudden blowout.


Gawd... Lawyers!!

Temperature? I wonder how all those tubulars with latex tubes survive then... and they are sometimes at a much higher pressure. 

A properly installed tube is under essentially zero stress... because it is completely constrained and supported by the tire and rim. The only way that a tube can *blow* is if it manages to leave this area... very suddenly. 

And this brings up the reason why some manufacturers discourage their use... some people (many?) don't install their tubes properly. They don't check to make sure that none of the tube became caught under the bead. It is easier for this to happen with latex, and also much more likely that the tube will survive in this state until you are in a high speed corner. This is because latex is thin, tough, and highly elastic. A butyl tube would be more likely to fail before you got out the door. 

The pinched tube loosens the bead of the tire off the rim, which leaves the tube suddenly unconstrained, resulting in an explosion... which will sometimes wreck the tire even if it is sitting still. 

So... it is user error. It isn't the tire's fault or the tube's. Use latex if you wish, but always check to make sure that it isn't pinched under the bead.


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## eggdog (Jan 20, 2011)

Have to jump in here. I was using challenge latex tubes ( good quality latex) Vittoria Open corsa cx, tires, on Easton EA 90 sl rims, swiss stop pads. I rode my bike last summer over 1500 mi with ZERO problems.. No flats, nothing.. Then this past August, I was coming down a steep hill here in Boulder, ( Sunshine canyon) at a pretty good clip, and yes I was braking pretty hard into the corners, but nothing I haven't done before when both tires blew within 10 seconds of each other... Yes I s**t :: my pants but kept it upright... No nails or thorns, no puncture to the tire.. All I can think of is the heat, While I did like the ride of latex tubes, I am sticking with std Butyl tubes from now on.. My 2 cents..


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

And my 1 cent to follow your 2 cents... how could the tube, so long as it is contained in the tire, explode? Did the tire come off? Did the rim strip fail?

We've had plenty of reports of exploding tubes and tires with butyl tubes also...


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## Richyo (Mar 12, 2011)

rruff: On wiggle one guy complained that their Continental supersonic 28 tubes (butyl)have failed with it just sitting there twice(now he said he thought he fitted the 1st one incorrectly and then was more careful with the second (they both blew up within 10mins of fitting), and one blew descending


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## nuanda (Aug 31, 2011)

I can say you that we sold 20 carbon wheelsets equipped with Open Corsa EVO CX with latex inner tubes and we had 3 failures before calling them back ... so, I think it may be the conbination tire+inner tube making a difference. Anyway, better to avoid them ...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

What sort of failures? 

I doubt the tire or rim is implicated... but tube and user, yes.


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## CyclingVirtual (Apr 10, 2008)

Always use them, cant see a problem why there would be.


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## nuanda (Aug 31, 2011)

Pic in attach.

I was thinking the problem was the inner shape of the rim + maybe the fact that the inner tube was super light and therefore easy to brake (rims were OEM 38mm Equinox).

99% I can exclude the "user".

I find interesting the fact that eggdog had the same problem with the same tires. I cannot imagine how the tire may cause such a failure, but interesting.

Anyway, 3 failures, from 3 customers (within the first 100km) I think it's something. I myself had an accident when I was younger because of an exploded tubolar, not very funny.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

nuanda said:


> Pic in attach.
> 
> I was thinking the problem was the inner shape of the rim + maybe the fact that the inner tube was super light and therefore easy to brake (rims were OEM 38mm Equinox).
> 
> ...


That's not a latex tube is it ?? It appears that the tire may have slipped off the tire hook on the rim (possibly due to a pinched inner tube) resulting in the tube failing in the long longitudinal split. Hope the rider was OK - regardless of root cause the depressurization must have been "instantaneous."


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