# Is Contador a good teammate or just looking out for numero uno?



## Cat 6 RCR (Jun 2, 2008)

Last year we watched him launch an attack on Stage 7 then blow up his team on Stage 17. At the time, I think the consensus was it was a crappy move but he needed to because of team chemistry. 

Today on Stage 12 he attacks with Vino up the road, catches, and then passes him. 

So where do you stand? Is Contador a crappy teammate? Is he worried that he can't pass Andy Schleck in the final time trial? Does he want to make sure he's in yellow in the Pyrenees?


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

I say it was a good move. He's trying to win the race. Vino didn't have the gas to help his (GC favorite) team mate.....or challenge for the stage win, for that matter. Did you see Vino's face at the top of the final climb? He was cooked.


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

Cat 6 RCR said:


> Last year we watched him launch an attack on Stage 7 then blow up his team on Stage 17. At the time, I think the consensus was it was a crappy move but he needed to because of team chemistry.
> 
> Today on Stage 12 he attacks with Vino up the road, catches, and then passes him.
> 
> So where do you stand? Is Contador a crappy teammate? Is he worried that he can't pass Andy Schleck in the final time trial? Does he want to make sure he's in yellow in the Pyrenees?


he got some valuable time out of AS. I think the team would be happy with the days results.


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## RacingHead (Jul 16, 2010)

I have been lurking here for awhile. People really don't understand this how teams working bike racing, do they? Contador is the leader of his team. They work for him. They only really win if he wins the race. 

Here is a quote from Vino to help you out:

"We played it smart in the finale and we took a little bit of time off Andy; too bad we could not win the stage," Vinokourov, who came third behind Contador and Rodríguez, said. "It gives us confidence for the Pyrenees."


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

He may not like Vino, and he may want to slap him a little for some of his arguably ill-timed moves, but mostly he wants to win the race. Which means beating Schleck. Which means taking time out of him whenever he can. He attacked on a steep final climb today. That's Berto's signature move, his ace in the hole, his greatest virtue. He will do that every time he senses Schleck may be a little vulnerable. Schleck will try the same thing if he feels he can. We will see this happen again and again on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

Teams have many objectives in le Tour, but Maillot Jaune is numero uno goal.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

except he only got 10 seconds and cost Vino the stage.


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## RacingHead (Jul 16, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> except he only got 10 seconds and cost Vino the stage.


ONLY? You really have no clue. 10 seconds on the leader when you are as close as Contador is a lifetime at Le Tour. 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there brings the Maillot Jaune closer. It is time to recover from the unexpected. 

Some of you really do not understand this sport AT ALL.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> except he only got 10 seconds and cost Vino the stage.


It seems to me that he's going to have to chip away at the leaders time instead of try to get all in one sweep.

I think Contador did the right thing... It's his objective to win, and he gained some time back. How could anyone argue with that? 

Now if he wasn't the team-leader and had passed his team-leader up the climb, that act would likely cause a lot more legitimate fall-out.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> except he only got 10 seconds and cost Vino the stage.


Vino finished 3rd. He couldn't have won the stage with a tow-rope. Vino winning a stage doesn't put Contador on top of the podium.


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## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

10 seconds are 10 seconds. That continue to add up. Seconds can define the first place. He is the captain. And he is the one with most chances to win in his team. Last year he did nothing wrong. He was again the one with most chances and lane got greedy and grumpy. I don't see he is doing a bad move. Vino is there to help him out.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

RacingHead said:


> ONLY? You really have no clue. 10 seconds on the leader when you are as close as Contador is a lifetime at Le Tour. 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there brings the Maillot Jaune closer. It is time to recover from the unexpected.
> 
> Some of you really do not understand this sport AT ALL.


probably right that lots around here dont get the tour and pro bike racing, but 10 seconds isnt worth the effort to get it before the pyrenees stages, 30 seconds is another thing, but were not talking about 30 after the finish, it was 10. Psychological gain is the only thing really to bed gained after today, but that depends on the two riders playing games.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

It was 10 seconds. 

He didn't know that when he launched the attack.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

muscleendurance said:


> probably right that lots around here dont get the tour and pro bike racing, but 10 seconds isnt worth the effort to get it before the pyrenees stages, 30 seconds is another thing, but were not talking about 30 after the finish, it was 10. Psychological gain is the only thing really to bed gained after today, but that depends on the two riders playing games.


So what would Astana have gained if Contador had sat in and let Vino finish 2nd? Today Contador gained back 10 seconds (1/4) of the time he needed, and he now knows that Andy can't respond in the mountains. Win-win


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

muscleendurance said:


> probably right that lots around here dont get the tour and pro bike racing, but 10 seconds isnt worth the effort to get it before the pyrenees stages, 30 seconds is another thing, but were not talking about 30 after the finish, it was 10. Psychological gain is the only thing really to bed gained after today, but that depends on the two riders playing games.


I doubt Vino would have won anyway (I may change my mind when I see it) but the reports say that Rodriguez attacked and AC countered. That would have sucked for Astana to lose the stage and not get the 10 seconds.


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## leadag (Jan 4, 2005)

I'm sure the plan before the stage was 
1) Put Vino in the break (which he did)
2) Have Conti attack and catch up on the climb (which he did)
3) The two of them work together across the flat to gain GC time
4) Vino takes the win..

They executed very well, but Vino didn't quite have enough left to jump on as 
Conti went past. If he had, they potentially would have gotten a larger gap on A.S, as well as the stage win.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

Good move.

ACs first priority - GC
ACs second priority - win as many stages as possible
AC's last priority - ride defensively when he has a clear opportunity to make time so that a team mate *could potentially possibly maybe* win a stage.

After seeing AC ride away from my boy Andy, Im now fearful of what the Pyrenees may hold. Astanas team is way stronger than I predicted they'd be.

GO ANDY GO


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

RacingHead said:


> ONLY? You really have no clue. 10 seconds on the leader when you are as close as Contador is a lifetime at Le Tour. 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there brings the Maillot Jaune closer. It is time to recover from the unexpected.
> 
> Some of you really do not understand this sport AT ALL.


welcome to the forum.

now stop acting like a jacktard.

Some folks here know very little about pro racing and want to learn. Others know the sport inside and out (yeah, better than you). 

Sharing your knowlege = cool. Showing up and immediately trying to demonstrate your superiority = the move of an insecure d-bag. You really want to be that guy?


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> except he only got 10 seconds and cost Vino the stage.


Vino likely wasn't going to win the stage and the 10 will likely matter.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

yater said:


> he now knows that Andy can't respond in the mountains. Win-win


Now that's a stretch. A ridiculous stretch. 

Put another way, let's just say that Contador took back the 10 seconds Andy took out of him at Morzine. Which, by your thinking, meant Contador couldn't respond in the mountains. Except, of course, he did.


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## RacingHead (Jul 16, 2010)

Today was definitely a warning shot at Andy. Contador and Astana made it clear to Andy, Evans, Levi, and the other GC that they are up to the task of taking them down a little at time.


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

yater said:


> And he now knows that Andy can't respond in the mountains.


Actually no. The move surprised Schleck. His mistake was a slow response, not being unable to resond. But his reaction, when it did come, cut the gap from almost 20 seconds to 10. 

If anything Schleck could be emboldened that he was able to greatly limit the loses from an obvious mistake. And he likely won't make the same mistake twice. 

From that perspective, Contador played an ace, but didn't win much of a pot.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

RacingHead said:


> ONLY? You really have no clue. 10 seconds on the leader when you are as close as Contador is a lifetime at Le Tour. 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there brings the Maillot Jaune closer. It is time to recover from the unexpected.
> 
> Some of you really do not understand this sport AT ALL.


Get over yourself. 10 seconds is not "lifetime". It's 10 seconds. His attack has not yielded him any serious time and it did cost Vino a shot at stage win. It was a poor tactical move. If LA did something like that to Popo or Horner these boards would be overloaded with hate messages.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

32and3cross said:


> Vino likely wasn't going to win the stage and the 10 will likely matter.


If Rodriguez had to bridge to Vino alone, without help of Contador, Vino may have been able to hang on and play it out 1-on-1 for the line, we'll never know now. He wasn't that far behind Conti & Rodriguez.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

So why was Contador pissing away potential seconds futzing around for the stage win rather than TT'ing to the line it for as much of a time gap as possible?

Contador was clearly stronger than Schleck, but between him and Vino I didn't see any evidence that Astana has their act together. They have two strong riders, one overall contender and one loose cannon, IMO.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

leadag said:


> I'm sure the plan before the stage was
> 1) Put Vino in the break (which he did)
> 2) Have Conti attack and catch up on the climb (which he did)
> 3) The two of them work together across the flat to gain GC time
> ...



This is a very sensible appraisal of what probably went down. 

Please exit this thread immediately. There's AC bashing to do, and you're not helping.

I'm going to take a wild leap of faith here and say that Vino pounded his bars because he's the team leader for Astana and they were very close to winning the stage and taking time off the GC leader but got nipped at the line, NOT because AC "cost him the stage."
If Vino had the legs, he'd have won the stage.

What's being ignored is that Rodriguez is top 10 in GC (albeit not a huge threat, but still). Was AC just supposed to watch a top 10 GC guy ride away on the chance the dude would stop and red-carpet Vino across the line? 

A good teammate gives his team the best chance to win - both stages and overall. Contador did both today, in my opinion. They just fell slightly short at the line for the stage win.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

55x11 said:


> Get over yourself. 10 seconds is not "lifetime". It's 10 seconds. His attack has not yielded him any serious time and it did cost Vino a shot at stage win. It was a poor tactical move. If LA did something like that to Popo or Horner these boards would be overloaded with hate messages.


10 seconds is a lifetime.
I'm sure Fignon would love to have had an extra 10 seconds.


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## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

??? This thread has nothing to do with LA.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Because stage wins are good, and Astana wanted one?

What's wrong with wanting to put time on Andy and going for a stage win?

Edit: This was a response to PBB's question about why AC was "pissing time away" going for the stage win.
That is all


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

RacingHead said:


> ONLY? You really have no clue. 10 seconds on the leader when you are as close as Contador is a lifetime at Le Tour. 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there brings the Maillot Jaune closer. It is time to recover from the unexpected.
> 
> Some of you really do not understand this sport AT ALL.




That wasn't very nice.  

There are people here that don't understand the sport "AT ALL," but are trying to learn. Some people seem to think that cycling is an exclusive members only club and that people who don't say and do things just so should be subject to scorn. I disagree, and that turns people away from the sport (which might actually be the intention of some).

On the other hand, there are plenty of people here that know the sport and it's rules and strategies extremely well, and these forums are set up to allow friendly debate over their respective perspectives. Different teams have different strategies, and there isn't one correct answer to what the right thing to do is. It isn't inappropriate to reward a team member for hard work, and there is a downside to having an entire team work thoughtlessly in support of one person. There are benefits to that strategy for sure, but different teams operate in different ways. Contador is strictly in favor of the "work for me and only me" strategy, which he has been very clear about. However, it was beneficial to Radioshack to have someone else high in the GC when Armstrong crashed, and in all of the GTs that Levi supported Contador, it was very helpful to have him so close to him in the GC in case a crash or illness had taken Contador out of contention. Contador would disagree, but it is a strategy that works for some. I understand the sport well enough to know that, and I can also see the argument that Contador is can be dismissive and perhaps insulting to his teammates efforts. He puts his money where his mouth is for sure, but I can recognize that perspective. I say that and I believe that I understand the sport pretty well.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

Brad the Bold said:


> Actually no. The move surprised Schleck. His mistake was a slow response, not being unable to resond. But his reaction, when it did come, cut the gap from almost 20 seconds to 10.
> .


Schleck tried to cover, but instead sat in and watched Alberto dance away. Not exactly a "victory" for Andy, as some are suggesting. You realize that AC actually stretched that gap once AS sat in, right? We call that getting dropped. BTW, I'm a Schleck fan.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Somehow Astana, in spite of all their alleged tactical ineptitude, managed to get Saxo Bank to pull the entire field (including Contador) up to the break.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

mtbbmet said:


> 10 seconds is a lifetime.
> I'm sure Fignon would love to have had an extra 10 seconds.


 yeah yeah yeah we all know what happened. Quickly, name another grand tour in recent history that was decided by less than 10 seconds? I thought so...


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

32and3cross said:


> Vino likely wasn't going to win the stage and the 10 will likely matter.


You want to take a bet that 10 seconds will NOT matter in the end?


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## Reith (Jul 10, 2005)

RacingHead said:


> ONLY? You really have no clue. 10 seconds on the leader when you are as close as Contador is a lifetime at Le Tour. 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there brings the Maillot Jaune closer. It is time to recover from the unexpected.
> 
> Some of you really do not understand this sport AT ALL.


Agreed! And all the crap the others are giving you about the crap they said you gave others is much worse crap than the crap you dished out. They tell you to be nice, but are not nice themselves. Your comments were not harsh, they were spot on. 

10 seconds is monumental in so many ways.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

jptaylorsg said:


> If Vino had the legs, he'd have won the stage.


Not that we disagree with the stage at large, but anyone sitting in that break today had the legs. It was fast as hell and lots of climbing, still they stuck it out and many of them ended up high on the leader board when the day was over.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

55x11 said:


> yeah yeah yeah we all know what happened. Quickly, name another grand tour in recent history that was decided by less than 10 seconds? I thought so...


23 seconds in '07.....32 seconds in '06....I'd say 10 seconds in significant. Lemond won in '89 by 8 seconds.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

RacingHead said:


> I have been lurking here for awhile. People really don't understand this how teams working bike racing, do they? Contador is the leader of his team. They work for him. They only really win if he wins the race.
> 
> Here is a quote from Vino to help you out:
> 
> "We played it smart in the finale and we took a little bit of time off Andy; too bad we could not win the stage," Vinokourov, who came third behind Contador and Rodríguez, said. "It gives us confidence for the Pyrenees."


then you must not have seen last year's race.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bas said:


> then you must not have seen last year's race.


BAM!!


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

55x11 said:


> yeah yeah yeah we all know what happened. Quickly, name another grand tour in recent history that was decided by less than 10 seconds? I thought so...


Schleck gamely fought back to limit his losses to that amount. It's Contador's _job_ to put Schleck in as much difficulty as often as possible, but he can't know _a priori_ which attack will gain 10 seconds, and which will gain a minute. He also can't predict what's going to happen in the Pyrenees.

If it had been Jens and Andy instead of Vino and Contador, you would not be seeing any of this inane Monday morning quarterbacking.


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## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

You never know if ten seconds will count for the win, maybe 20? 30? Who knows. But if you add 10 here and 10 there it does count. Any gc contender in his place would have done the same thing


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

bas said:


> then you must not have seen last year's race.



BOOYACKASHAW! 

Does anyone think that Contador didn't try for 30+ seconds over Schleck today...looked like it to me.

Plus..10 seconds here and there adds up. 

To address the OP.. "No" he is not a good teammate because his name is Alberto Condtador....nuff said


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

pretender said:


> Schleck gamely fought back to limit his losses to that amount. It's Contador's _job_ to put Schleck in as much difficulty as often as possible, but he can't know _a priori_ which attack will gain 10 seconds, and which will gain a minute.
> 
> If it had been Jens and Andy instead of Vino and Contador, you would not be seeing any of this inane Monday morning quarterbacking.


It was 3km Cat 2 climb. It's not like Contador attacked on 20km HC. I rather doubt he thought he was going to make up big time on such a short climb. I would be ripping anyone who pulled this type of move. 

I don't think anyone was suggesting Contador was done when Schleck pulled away for the win on stage 8, which was also 10 seconds. The difference was Jens Voight wasn't at the front trying to win after a long breakaway.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Red Sox Junkie said:


> I doubt Vino would have won anyway (I may change my mind when I see it) but the reports say that Rodriguez attacked and AC countered. That would have sucked for Astana to lose the stage and not get the 10 seconds.


I agree Contador attacked and bridged up to Rodriguez. Rodriguez would have almost certainly at a minimum caught Vino, and if not outright dropped him, outsprinted him for the stage win.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

"*Is Contador a good teammate*" - Yes, as long as everybody else on the team understands that his job is to look our for numero uno, and that he don't do poo for anyone else.

"*or just looking out for numero uno*" - See above.

That said, I think they / he did what they needed to do today. It was an obvious stage for a strong finish from Contador.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

LesDiablesRouges said:


> It was 3km Cat 2 climb. It's not like Contador attacked on 20km HC. I rather doubt he thought he was going to make up big time on such a short climb.


Here is what Contador said after the finish:
"It’s always good to get a gap of some kind. I thought I might gain more than 10 seconds. I felt it was up to me to take the attack to him today and that performance was very important today. It's a pity I couldn't cap it with the win."

I don't think you'll find (m)any people in the cycling press who will fault Contador for _putting ten seconds into his main rival_ (ffs) in today's stage.


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## TheOcho (Jul 2, 2010)

Whats the big deal here. He got ten seconds on Andy. Andy isn't crapping his pants about it. He knows now that he can't screw around while the creepy little pistolero hammers away up a very very small and insignificant climb. Andy realized that if creepador wants to chip away at his GC time 10 seconds at a time on short climbs, he needs to work especially hard to make sure he "un"-chips away at creepadors sticky fingered attempts to whittle time away. Andy realized today that he can not afford to give contador any more gifts, big or small.

Vino isn't crapping his pants about losing the stage. Lance is in every commercial on Versus. Cavendouche lost his best leadout man. Whats not to love here? 

Despite what some of our harsher, snobbier, douchier cycling compadres may say...ALL of our knowledge regarding team strategy, psyches of GC contenders and general day to day observations are VERY VERY limited. We know nothing. We watch, discuss, enjoy, and train ourselves. We are supposed to be inspired by great athletes and great events, not pick each other apart over speculations and half baked hypotheses.

Let us not forget that we are all amateurs. Some of you nuts will probably put power meters on your children's tricycles. Or make them drink endurox after a particularly grueling T-ball practice. I salute you, overly intense and hyperactive sports fans and armchair analysts. Best of luck.

On that note. Its almost 5 oclock. Lets ride bikes. 

Love,

Ocho


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

10 seconds? 10 seconds! 10 seconds when Schleck freaking needs 2 minutes at least to pad himself in order to..., scratch that if he has any hope of winning, any hope when the TT comes along.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

*Lance was going to let Heras win BUT*

I think it was Basso who was right behind them and Lance had to go. It was the same type of thing. Heras didn't have the legs. What about the time Lance was going to let Landis take the stage (ride it like you stole it) but Landis didn't have the legs so Lance took the stage. 55x11 !!!!????





55x11 said:


> yeah yeah yeah we all know what happened. Quickly, name another grand tour in recent history that was decided by less than 10 seconds? I thought so...


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

yater said:


> 23 seconds in '07.....32 seconds in '06....I'd say 10 seconds in significant. Lemond won in '89 by 8 seconds.


And 41sec in the 09 Giro (sure DiLuca was dopped, but it was still close), and 46sec in the 08 Vuelta. That's just recently. 
Point is, every second counts. 10 seconds is 10 seconds. And 13 points are 13 points.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Contador didn't just gain 10 seconds today, Astana (in the shape of Vino) broke Saxobank's legs by making them work much harder than they wanted to.

Great Tactics. The Tour is a War of Attrition and today Astana attrited* extremely well.

* I've invented a new word!!!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

RacingHead said:


> ONLY? You really have no clue. 10 seconds on the leader when you are as close as Contador is a lifetime at Le Tour. 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there brings the Maillot Jaune closer. It is time to recover from the unexpected.
> 
> Some of you really do not understand this sport AT ALL.


Sorry, but you're wrong if you think 10 seconds will matter in this year's tour. How much time did Contador take out of Schleck in last year's stage 19? Almost 2 minutes (Contador beat Cancellara in that time trial). This year's final ITT is 12 km longer than last year. Just ask Contador himself - how worried was he when Schleck took 10 seconds out of him on stage 8? Contador didn't care. I'm happy to take any bet you want to place on that 10 seconds being meaningless by the time this race is over...


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

thesmokingman said:


> 10 seconds? 10 seconds! 10 seconds when Schleck freaking needs 2 minutes at least to pad himself in order to..., scratch that if he has any hope of winning, any hope when the TT comes along.


Which means that Schleck needs to be taking time at EVERY opportunity when the road tilts uphill, not giving it away in any increment, regardless of how small. IMHO, barring some kind of mishap, Contador won (or at least showed that he will win) the Tour today.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> I'm happy to take any bet you want to place on that 10 seconds being meaningless by the time this race is over...


Somehow I doubt that......


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

Speedi Pig said:


> Which means that Schleck needs to be taking time at EVERY opportunity when the road tilts uphill, not giving it away in any increment, regardless of how small. IMHO, barring some kind of mishap, Contador won (or at least showed that he will win) the Tour today.


The tour was over after Stage 10. AC played Schleck for the lump he is, turned him into his domestique.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

pretender said:


> Schleck gamely fought back to limit his losses to that amount. It's Contador's _job_ to put Schleck in as much difficulty as often as possible, but he can't know _a priori_ which attack will gain 10 seconds, and which will gain a minute. He also can't predict what's going to happen in the Pyrenees.
> 
> If it had been Jens and Andy instead of Vino and Contador, you would not be seeing any of this inane Monday morning quarterbacking.


I could be argued that Contador knew exactly how much time he could take on the climb since he just did it in P-N. Oddly enough, margin of victory was 10 seconds then.
I won't argue that, I'm just sayin it could be argued.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

pretender said:


> Somehow Astana, in spite of all their alleged tactical ineptitude, managed to get Saxo Bank to pull the entire field (including Contador) up to the break.


They must be working this thing at a level that the rest of the race just doesn't understand.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

I thought the tactics were great and made for an exciting stage. I would have preferred it if Conti just went for time instead of the win, but there is a reason he's a winner - it's in his blood.

Now, if I could just get over Contador's voice/accent - I might actually like the guy.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

*As far as I see it...*



RacingHead said:


> Here is a quote from Vino to help you out:
> 
> "We played it smart in the finale and we took a little bit of time off Andy; too bad we could not win the stage," Vinokourov, who came third behind Contador and Rodríguez, said. "It gives us confidence for the Pyrenees."


TheOcho said this in his post: If Vino isn't (seemingly) butt-hurt about it, then why should we be so?

We don't surely know that Vino would've won, or if those 10 seconds would ever matter. But the thing is, we're all assuming things, and then taking those assumptions to make something out of AC and the Tour.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

He's the GC guy, he is _supposed_ to attack.

Vino on the other hand, not sure he isn't riding for himself and then making a token effort when caught.


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

I think Conatador did what he had to do, 10 seconds may not be much to AC, but for Andy, I think it's a lot. But more importantly it showed how fast Contador could gap Andy. Who knows, if the climb were steeper or and longer, would Contador have put more time on Andy or would Andy have been able to get back? That did not happen and in the end, Andy, *Lost* 10 sec. giving him a mere 31 sec lead going into the Pyrenées, and Contador, scores psychological blow, leaving that question in mind.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> They must be working this thing at a level that the rest of the race just doesn't understand.


well what could "the rest of the race" do? 
It's up to saxo bank alone to keep astana contained. Attacks had been going for 50km and a killer group formed. 
Good for astana making that break, too bad saxo bank does not have 7 super humans as support for andy. 
Some agreement was clearly made with cervelo to ease the pain though.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

AJL said:


> I thought the tactics were great and made for an exciting stage. I would have preferred it if Conti just went for time instead of the win, but there is a reason he's a winner - it's in his blood.
> 
> Now, if I could just get over Contador's voice/accent - I might actually like the guy.


Learn spanish and then you'll be all set. :thumbsup:


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

pretender said:


> Here is what Contador said after the finish:
> "It’s always good to get a gap of some kind. I thought I might gain more than 10 seconds. I felt it was up to me to take the attack to him today and that performance was very important today. It's a pity I couldn't cap it with the win."


Speaking of Monday morning quarterbacking! Was he interested in time, or the win? Because he lost time going for the win, and didn't get it. Brilliant!

Fortunately, he what he seems to lack in tactics, he slightly more than makes up for in strength.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Vino on the other hand, not sure he isn't riding for himself and then making a token effort when caught.


yeah it's not like having him in the break had the saxo bank team burn matches like a pyro in a Californian drought.


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## TheOcho (Jul 2, 2010)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Learn spanish and then you'll be all set. :thumbsup:


+1 to this. That accent you hear is an interpreter, pelotudo, not creepador himself 

If you're telling me you don't like the spanish accent of contador because he's Spanish, then go back to school. 

If you're telling me you don't like contador's accent because he's from Pinto, Spain, then i'll be impressed. Very impressed.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Contador is the team leader (and was obviously the strongest rider on the team despite JB nominating LA as the team leader last year) so whether or not he's a good teammate is irrelevant. Even if he treats everyone like crap, when they split the winnings all will be forgiven. Doubling your income for the year tends to mellow your opinion on someone.

Climbers win by attacking on climbs. Pantani, Ocana, Fuentes, et al all rode that way. Sometimes you get a few seconds and sometimes you get 8 minutes, but if you don't give it a go you get nothing. Thank god it's not another year of the Indurain/LA style - win a stage and then race not to lose the rest of the way. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

terzo rene said:


> Contador is the team leader (and was obviously the strongest rider on the team despite JB nominating LA as the team leader last year) so whether or not he's a good teammate is irrelevant. Even if he treats everyone like crap, when they split the winnings all will be forgiven. Doubling your income for the year tends to mellow your opinion on someone.
> 
> Climbers win by attacking on climbs. Pantani, Ocana, Fuentes, et al all rode that way. Sometimes you get a few seconds and sometimes you get 8 minutes, but if you don't give it a go you get nothing. Thank god it's not another year of the Indurain/LA style - win a stage and then race not to lose the rest of the way. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm sure Vino would have liked to win the stage. That wasn't going to happen. What we will never know is, did he slap his bars because he (Vino) did not win or because his team did not win.


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## Swish (Jul 31, 2004)

Good riding bij Astana, they sent Vino upfront, he's too much of a threat to the GC to let him go so Saxo had to push hard. Contador attacks, giving the team 2 chances at a stage victory and the possibility of Conta closing the gap to Schleck. Contador's position is priority number one, as long as he has yellow in Paris he's fine (his own words). Vino is a very valuable teammate but his personal success is subordinate to the mission.

To me it's very logical how it all played out.

You can't compare it to last year's Contador - Lance feud, that was really a conflict of interests.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Because he lost time going for the win, and didn't get it. Brilliant!


How much time did he lose going for the win? Did he sit up?


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## sjhiker (May 14, 2010)

thechriswebb said:


> That wasn't very nice.
> There are people here that don't understand the sport "AT ALL," but are trying to learn. Some people seem to think that cycling is an exclusive members only club and that people who don't say and do things just so should be subject to scorn. I disagree, and that turns people away from the sport (which might actually be the intention of some).


Amen!

Though to me the biggest surprise to yesterday's stage was that Schleck didn't (or couldn't?) keep up with Contador. I think from a psychological perspective, Contador got a huge bonus.


...Proud member of Team Cotton.


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## Mordy (Aug 30, 2006)

terzo rene said:


> Thank god it's not another year of the Indurain/LA style - win a stage and then race not to lose the rest of the way. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


We might see that a bit after Port de Pailhères with the uphill finish at AX3 Domaines on stage 14. AC or AS might break the other on one of those.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> They must be working this thing at a level that the rest of the race just doesn't understand.


Astana did something very simple: They got a strong GC racer into the break. Or, as cyclingnews put it:

"Back in the main bunch, Saxo Bank were forced to chase in order to keep tabs on the progress of dangermen Hesjedal, Vinokourov and Kloden, all of whom had the opportunity to move very high up in the overall rankings."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/97th-tour-de-france-gt/stage-12/results


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

terzo rene said:


> Climbers win by attacking on climbs. Pantani, Ocana, Fuentes, et al all rode that way. Sometimes you get a few seconds and sometimes you get 8 minutes, but if you don't give it a go you get nothing. Thank god it's not another year of the Indurain/LA style - win a stage and then race not to lose the rest of the way. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


Please stop with silliness. Did you fail to notice Contador wheel sucking Navarro for the Alps stages? 

Let's not make Alberto Contedor anything more than he is, which is the strongest rider in the field with a big ego.

It's insult to Merckx to suggest Contador has an attacking style ...


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## pvflyer (Oct 15, 2009)

RacingHead said:


> ONLY? You really have no clue. 10 seconds on the leader when you are as close as Contador is a lifetime at Le Tour. 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there brings the Maillot Jaune closer. It is time to recover from the unexpected.
> 
> Some of you really do not understand this sport AT ALL.



Agree with U on that, 10sec can make or brake your race when racing the tour. Also its show that AC maybe playing the sleeper game on this tour. Lets not forget AC is the team captain and all the other rider are domestic on his team therefore they're there for him that's it.

IMHO I think that AC put a good move on AS and he gained 10secs and even though Schleck tried to respond he looks a bit wasted if you look up-close he was drooling all over his bike on the last mile.

Viva Le Tour, we'll be treated to a great race next week


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

Last time I checked Andy Schleck was in the yellow, so of course the second place guy, Contador is now getting ragged on for picking up time where he can get it. Strange stuff, when the guy isn't even leading the race. Seems to me the smart rider isn't overconfident and knows flat tires and crashes happen or maybe a bad day in the mountains, where those seconds gained save your behind.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

55x11 said:


> You want to take a bet that 10 seconds will NOT matter in the end?


You want to make a bet that when Contador bridged up to Rodriguez and saw that he had dropped Schleck and decided to ride that not you or I or Paul or Phil or Contador or Schleck or anyone else KNEW what the time difference would be at the finish?

However, given the situation the only sensible thing for Contador to do was to ride because the gap created could be significant when it's all said and done.

I should also add, he wouldn't have known he was necessarily going to catch Vino either.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

den bakker said:


> yeah it's not like having him in the break had the saxo bank team burn matches like a pyro in a Californian drought.


You mean other than the 18 person break with 3 good riders in it then yeah. And Ryder was higher placed and nominally Garmin's GC guy too. 

But given Vino's history, its entirely possible he is riding for himself until he gets caught. _ Not that it matters_, Conti can catch him anytime he wants- quite clearly.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

rydbyk said:


> BOOYACKASHAW!
> 
> Does anyone think that Contador didn't try for 30+ seconds over Schleck today...looked like it to me.
> 
> ...


How much is Vino's loyalty as teammate worth? What about other teammates who may be in the same position in the future? More or less than 10 seconds?

I seriously doubt Schleck would do this if Jens or Cancellara were in the lead. You simply don't attack when your teammate is up the road in the lead, its rule #1. Today's attack was not necessary and on the foolish side, in the big picture. I hope it comes back to bite Contador when he is isolated on Tourmalet and loses 2+ minutes to Schleck (wishful thinking on my part).


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## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

please stop this stupid thread, my BB has been blinking all day


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

pretender said:


> How much time did he lose going for the win? Did he sit up?


He appeared to have his foot on and off the gas it in the final K trying for the stage. Don't know how much time he lost, but if we are to believe that a few seconds here and there is a big deal. . .


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

55x11 said:


> You simply don't attack when your teammate is up the road in the lead, its rule #1.


It's rule #1 in Tactics 101. These guys are racing at a Post-Doctoral PhD Tactics level. By the way, what is a rider's share of the GC prize money compared to that for a stage win? That should give a pretty good idea of what the rest of the team thinks of Contador's move.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> You want to make a bet that when Contador bridged up to Rodriguez and saw that he had dropped Schleck and decided to ride that not you or I or Paul or Phil or Contador or Schleck or anyone else KNEW what the time difference would be at the finish?
> 
> However, given the situation the only sensible thing for Contador to do was to ride because the gap created could be significant when it's all said and done.
> 
> I should also add, he wouldn't have known he was necessarily going to catch Vino either.


Obviously he didn't know what will happen in the future (unless he is psychic). None of us do. 

But in the end, he DID pull Rodriguez up to his teammate who had a reasonable shot at winning a stage. AND he didn't gain any significant time on Schleck (*please don't tell me all he wanted to do was to get 10 seconds). And he failed to win a stage, instead gifting it to Rodriguez. If I were Vino, I'd be at least a little pissed.

In retrospect, the move was definitely a mistake. Should have let Rodriguez go, or at the very least sat up when he bridged up to Rodriguez and saw that Schleck &Co weren't far behind. At that point it was clear the move wasn't likely to gain large amount of time.

I stand by this assessment.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

55x11 said:


> How much is Vino's loyalty as teammate worth? What about other teammates who may be in the same position in the future? More or less than 10 seconds?
> 
> *I seriously doubt Schleck would do this if Jens or Cancellara were in the lead. You simply don't attack when your teammate is up the road in the lead, its rule #1. Today's attack was not necessary and on the foolish side, in the big picture*. I hope it comes back to bite Contador when he is isolated on Tourmalet and loses 2+ minutes to Schleck (wishful thinking on my part).


This is the worst post in the thread....and this is a BAD thread. The big picture is WINNING the TDF. How does a Vino 2nd place in a stage accomplish that? Astana has been working for the past year (or more) to get Contador on top of the podium. Vino was cooked at the top of the climb....do you really think Contador didn't know that when he attacked? You know the team cars have TVs and radios in them, right? Maybe I'm oldskool or something, but I think the strongest man should win....not the "best team mate"

.....I'll say it again, I'm a Schleck fan


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

yater said:


> You know the team cars have TVs and radios in them, right?


Actually, they don't.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

yater said:


> I think the strongest man should win....not the "best team mate"


speaking of the worst point of the thread...


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

55x11 said:


> speaking of the worst point of the thread...


Check out the history of the TdF. Some victories were 2+ hours. You should stick to watching the local crit races.

You think Lemond, Armstrong, Contador, etc are the "best team mates"?? They were winners, not domestiques.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

yater said:


> Check out the history of the TdF. Some victories were 2+ hours.
> 
> You should stick to watching the local crit races.


Ouch!!! (btw - what's wrong with watching local crits? is that supposed to be an insult? You can learn a LOT from small races)

welcome to 21st century cycling, where tactics matter, and strongest rider doesn't necessarily win.

You don't attack your teammate for a reason. You figure out what it is.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

55x11 said:


> Obviously he didn't know what will happen in the future (unless he is psychic). None of us do.
> 
> But in the end, he DID pull Rodriguez up to his teammate who had a reasonable shot at winning a stage. AND he didn't gain any significant time on Schleck (*please don't tell me all he wanted to do was to get 10 seconds). And he failed to win a stage, instead gifting it to Rodriguez. If I were Vino, I'd be at least a little pissed.
> 
> ...


Vino did not have a reasonable shot at winning the stage. If Vino could have won then he would have been able to sit on Rodriguez's wheel. Do you think Rodriguez would have just sat up and let Vino take it? Why didn't Andy sit up and let Jens take the stage the other day?

Vino's job is to work for AC. AC's job is to win the race. The DS of Astana and Saxo teams have no idea how much time they need to win and extreme pressure to win. They will take time anywhere they can. If they did not need it in the end, so be it.

You are also forgetting the psychological ramifications of the stage. AC gains confidence over AS and AS gets a dose of reality that he may not be strong enough. Who knows how much time that is worth in the end. If AS had gotten back on, he would be feeling better about the stage.

You can stand by anything you want, but if you think AC is a tactical mess, you may rethink throwing stones in that glass house of yours.

Disclosure: I would love to see AS win but I do respect the talent of AC. I also think AC is hated here mostly for being a stronger rider than LA last year and this.


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

55x11 said:


> Ouch!!! (btw - what's wrong with watching local crits? is that supposed to be an insult? You can learn a LOT from small races)
> 
> welcome to 21st century cycling, where tactics matter, and strongest rider doesn't necessarily win.
> 
> You don't attack your teammate for a reason. You figure out what it is.


This ^

and

Contador can do so at his peril ... it's no wonder almost everyone from Astana fled to Radioshack despite the strongest rider and likely 2010 TDF winner being at Astana ...

Notice how he's surrounded by Spaniards and former dope fiends *Cough* vinokourov *cough*

The only racer who has ever been able to get away with what Contador did in last years race and this was Eddy Merckx and

Contador isn't even in the same strastophere. (Of course no one else is)


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## Reith (Jul 10, 2005)

55x11 said:


> You simply don't attack when your teammate is up the road in the lead, its rule #1



Rule #1 is that your Rule #1 is not Rule #1. 

Contador putting time on Schleck and sending the message it did are way more important than Vino. Oh, and guess who one of the biggest rule breakers of your own Rule #1 happens to be .....yep...you got it....Vino. Just ask some German dude named Jan.


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## parker3375 (May 6, 2008)

Come on...a vino to jens comparison...what's jens overall time compared to vino. Really? Of course you let your teammate win (if he can). The whole reason vino was ahead was to help contador, just so happens he didn't have any left. Remember when AS left jens with half a k to go the other day? What a horrible teammate. It's tactics, and contador is great at them.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

yater said:


> This is the worst post in the thread....and this is a BAD thread. The big picture is WINNING the TDF. How does a Vino 2nd place in a stage accomplish that? Astana has been working for the past year (or more) to get Contador on top of the podium. Vino was cooked at the top of the climb....do you really think Contador didn't know that when he attacked? You know the team cars have TVs and radios in them, right? Maybe I'm oldskool or something, but I think the strongest man should win....not the "best team mate"
> 
> .....I'll say it again, I'm a Schleck fan


funny post- Contador says this on twitter after the race:

Dia muy duro hoy con final en Mende,recortando 10" importantisimos,marcada por la confusion en la situacion de carrera debido a la radio

last part - "marked by confusion in the race situation due to radio." Communication problems left him not knowing how close he was to Vino - thought he could take time out of Schleck without chasing down Vino.


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

Reith said:


> Rule #1 is that your Rule #1 is not Rule #1.
> 
> Contador putting time on Schleck and sending the message it did are way more important than Vino. Oh, and guess who one of the biggest rule breakers of your own Rule #1 happens to be .....yep...you got it....Vino. Just ask some German dude named Jan.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

55x11 said:


> Ouch!!! (btw - what's wrong with watching local crits? is that supposed to be an insult? You can learn a LOT from small races)
> 
> *welcome to 21st century cycling, where tactics matter, and strongest rider doesn't necessarily win.*
> 
> You don't attack your teammate for a reason. You figure out what it is.




It IS the 21st century. Tactic #1 is making sure your strongest guy does win..at all costs. Ask Renshaw. If Renshaw disagreed, he would probably have a stage win in this TdF. I mean really...why not spread the wealth on HTC too while they are at it? Not.

Vino DID earn 3rd...not 2nd place BTW...

If Contador was not even a factor today, Vino still would not have won the stage IMO.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

LesDiablesRouges said:


> This ^
> 
> and
> 
> ...


Like I said, people hate AC because he was stronger than LA last year. Never mind that AC was team leader until LA bought into the team and said we now have 2 leaders, setting up a competitive situation within the team.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

rydbyk said:


> It IS the 21st century. Tactic #1 is making sure your strongest guy does win..at all costs. Ask Renshaw. If Renshaw disagreed, he would probably have a stage win in this TdF. I mean really...why not spread the wealth on HTC too while they are at it? Not.
> 
> Vino DID earn 3rd...not 2nd place BTW...
> 
> If Contador was not even a factor today, Vino still would not have won the stage IMO.


55x11 is a rabid LA fan and is just stirring trouble to bash AC because he is unable to bask in how well LA is riding.


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

Look, 

AC didn't even go until Rodriguez went, and then Schleck got caught looking at and watching Rodriguez on his right, and Conti snuck out on his left side and layed the hammer down. Personally, I thought it was a brilliant move, and it caught AS completely off guard.

It served 3 purposes...

1. It served AS notice....
2. It got him some time back...
3. It was a counterattack on Rodriguez with his teammate up the road.

It was brilliant.

If you don't think that Bruyneel and Armstrong would have done the same thing if the opportunity presented itself back in the day, I think you guys are sadly mistaken. I feel bad for Vino, but he had nothing left. He was not going to win either way. Rodriguez was going to pass him with or without Conti's help.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> 55x11 is a rabid LA fan and is just stirring trouble to bash AC because he is unable to bask in how well LA is riding.


Maximus - Actually, I strongly dislike LA, and I predicted all along he will fail this year. But I am rooting for Schleck, even though I predicted AC to win, I really hope AC loses.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

physasst said:


> Look,
> 
> AC didn't even go until Rodriguez went, and then Schleck got caught looking at and watching Rodriguez on his right, and Conti snuck out on his left side and layed the hammer down. Personally, I thought it was a brilliant move, and it caught AS completely off guard.
> 
> ...


it didn't catch Schleck off guard - at the start of the stage he predicted AC would attack him since the climb suited AC more than him. No one doubts AC should have gone. The only question is whether the Astana plan was for Vino to go for the win. If you watch the last 5km, it's pretty clear Vino is gutting it out for a solo win. He drops everyone remaining from the group. If that was the plan, team protocol would have been for AC to sit on Rodriguez once he bridges to him. But, AC goes by Rodriguez and drags him up to the finish. Rodriguez did not do any work. Contador says there was a problem in radio communication and he misunderstood the race situation. That would lead me to believe he thought Vino was further up the road and was surprised when he realized he was dragging Rodriguez up to chase Vino down.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> funny post- Contador says this on twitter after the race:
> 
> Dia muy duro hoy con final en Mende,recortando 10" importantisimos,marcada por la confusion en la situacion de carrera debido a la radio
> 
> last part - "marked by confusion in the race situation due to radio." Communication problems left him not knowing how close he was to Vino - thought he could take time out of Schleck without chasing down Vino.


Why is it that Conti is always complaining about radio communications. Does he think we are fools. Some people who would like to like Contador, don't - exactly because of these stupid lame brain comments.


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## Wborgers (Oct 6, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> it didn't catch Schleck off guard - at the start of the stage he predicted AC would attack him since the climb suited AC more than him. No one doubts AC should have gone. The only question is whether the Astana plan was for Vino to go for the win. If you watch the last 5km, it's pretty clear Vino is gutting it out for a solo win. He drops everyone remaining from the group. If that was the plan, team protocol would have been for AC to sit on Rodriguez once he bridges to him. But, AC goes by Rodriguez and drags him up to the finish. Rodriguez did not do any work. Contador says there was a problem in radio communication and he misunderstood the race situation. That would lead me to believe he thought Vino was further up the road and was surprised when he realized he was dragging Rodriguez up to chase Vino down.



As usual the voice of reason from Stevesbike- watch Vino respond at the finish- without AC dragging Rodriquez up to him I think Vino wins this stage- nice tactics by AC to totally hose a teammate instead of jumping Rodriquez's wheel and having a team win to celebrate tonight- crossing up his team's owner- nice tactics that is due to "radio problems"- its a clear pattern with AC-


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

AC was riding time out of Schleck, waiting behind Rodiguez wasn't an option. AC has no obligation to be a good team mate to anyone. Vino's personal stage ambitions are of no consequence in the face of the TdF overall, he has said as much to the media on several occasions.

None of this will matter if Schleck comes into the TT with less than 3 minutes on 2nd place. From where he's sitting on GC today, he'd be lucky to go top-5 after the TT.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

I may be imagining stuff, but I think Contador has the other guys 'fooled'...He goes, fast...and then he slows...fast. But to me, it looks kinda like a great show rather than him 'just not bothering to hammer it home' or 'being able to wick it up again at any time...." I think he's got a good act but he may be able to be beat...if some of the other guys could get past the "Psych" and keep after him...make him do more than the big jump he usually gives..

I know, easy for me to say from my couch...But how many times have you ridden and watched a good psych-job? Hasn't it ever happened to you that you discover, long after a race, that the guy who beat you, the guy you thought was "unbeatable...strong as hell and barely even sweating or breathing hard" you later find out that guy was within a RCH of totally pulling the plug...but you thought he was so together that you just "knew" he had you beat?

Besides being the most explosive climber on the tour this year, I think AC is also the best actor..


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## louise (May 24, 2010)

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...n-the-break-but-he-misses-out-on-victory.aspx


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> it didn't catch Schleck off guard - at the start of the stage he predicted AC would attack him since the climb suited AC more than him. No one doubts AC should have gone. The only question is whether the Astana plan was for Vino to go for the win. If you watch the last 5km, it's pretty clear Vino is gutting it out for a solo win. He drops everyone remaining from the group. If that was the plan, team protocol would have been for AC to sit on Rodriguez once he bridges to him. But, AC goes by Rodriguez and drags him up to the finish. Rodriguez did not do any work. Contador says there was a problem in radio communication and he misunderstood the race situation. That would lead me to believe he thought Vino was further up the road and was surprised when he realized he was dragging Rodriguez up to chase Vino down.



I don't buy that for a second. It did catch AS off guard, as he was caught looking the other way. To be honest, it almost looked as though AC was merely counterattacking Rodriguez, but then when he looked back, and saw that he had actually gapped Schleck, well, if you are 41 seconds behind in the GC, you really only have one choice at that point.

YMMV.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

physasst said:


> I don't buy that for a second. It did catch AS off guard, as he was caught looking the other way. To be honest, it almost looked as though AC was merely counterattacking Rodriguez, but then when he looked back, and saw that he had actually gapped Schleck, well, if you are 41 seconds behind in the GC, you really only have one choice at that point.
> 
> YMMV.


+1 
add to it that Van Den Broeck was attacking when Contador bridged. It's funny how the tour these days is now for big happy teams where everyone should have a shot. I seem to remember this was deemed a foolish and doomed strategy when Telecom did it. And apparently Vino is suddenly not an illoyal loose cannon but a guy that deserves a stage.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

louise said:


> http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...n-the-break-but-he-misses-out-on-victory.aspx


"_ didn’t know that Alberto was coming,” he said. “When you get near to the finish line, with the noise of the crowd you can hear nothing, if I had known, I would have slowed down a bit in the climb and I helped on the flat”

Rodriguez and Contador dropped Vinokourov just before the top but he managed to stay clear of the rest of the field to finish in third place, 4 seconds behind them.

"Today has been a testing day,” he said. “It's true, it’s unfortunate about the stage win, but the last climb was hard; at the finish I only needed about ten seconds to win. No matter, at the finish I could appreciate the atmosphere of Tour de France, when you arrive in the lead the reception is impressive, there is a particular atmosphere, it’s exceptional!

“But we are here to play for the overall and the main thing is that Alberto gained time on Andy [Schleck], after this remain four major stages in the Pyrenees, this is where the final victory will be played out, and I have complete trust in Alberto and his abilities, and in this team, to win this victory”._


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

ATTENTION ALL YE ALBERTO CONTADOR APOLOGISTS:

This is an AC bashing thread. Logic, proper race tactics or comparisons to past TdF winner team tactics are strictly off limits and VERBOTEN.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

AJL said:


> Why is it that Conti is always complaining about radio communications. Does he think we are fools. Some people who would like to like Contador, don't - exactly because of these stupid lame brain comments.



"_ didn’t know that Alberto was coming,” he said. “When you get near to the finish line, with the noise of the crowd you can hear nothing, if I had known, I would have slowed down a bit in the climb and I helped on the flat”_


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

physasst said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Yep. that. 

Plus I think Rodriguez woulda caught Vino.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

terzo rene said:


> Contador is the team leader (and was obviously the strongest rider on the team despite JB nominating LA as the team leader last year) so whether or not he's a good teammate is irrelevant. Even if he treats everyone like crap, when they split the winnings all will be forgiven. Doubling your income for the year tends to mellow your opinion on someone.
> 
> Climbers win by attacking on climbs. Pantani, Ocana, Fuentes, et al all rode that way. Sometimes you get a few seconds and sometimes you get 8 minutes, but if you don't give it a go you get nothing. Thank god it's not another year of the Indurain/LA style - win a stage and then race not to lose the rest of the way. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


+1. 

Those Indurain/LA Tours were snoozefests!


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## bismo37 (Mar 22, 2002)

parker3375 said:


> Come on...a vino to jens comparison...what's jens overall time compared to vino. Really? Of course you let your teammate win (if he can). The whole reason vino was ahead was to help contador, just so happens he didn't have any left. Remember when AS left jens with half a k to go the other day? What a horrible teammate. It's tactics, and contador is great at them.


He's talking about Vino's former teammate Jan (Ullrich), not Jens (Voigt).


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

il sogno said:


> +1.
> 
> Those Indurain/LA Tours were snoozefests!


Yeah 2003 was boring. Oh wait. . .


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> it didn't catch Schleck off guard - at the start of the stage he predicted AC would attack him since the climb suited AC more than him.


http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/riis-andy-sad-og-sov
In short: "Andy was asleep" according to Riis.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> "_ didn’t know that Alberto was coming,” he said. “When you get near to the finish line, with the noise of the crowd you can hear nothing, if I had known, I would have slowed down a bit in the climb and I helped on the flat”_


_

He's said this when there were no crowds and JB was speaking to him in Spanish. Maybe he doesn't know spanish very well _


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

AJL said:


> He's said this when there were no crowds and JB was speaking to him in Spanish. Maybe he doesn't know spanish very well


Name the year, stage and kilometer.

He gets backup for his statement and you will not even give him this one. True hater you are...


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

evs said:


> I think it was Basso who was right behind them and Lance had to go. It was the same type of thing. Heras didn't have the legs. What about the time Lance was going to let Landis take the stage (ride it like you stole it) but Landis didn't have the legs so Lance took the stage. 55x11 !!!!????


Are this the best examples you can come up with?

In Landis stage, he let Landis go, but Basso, Klodi and Ullrich reeled him in - Armstrong wasn't helping the chase (duh!). Then Klodi went. Armstrong attacked very late, and he was attacking Klodi, not Landis.

Not sure which stage you are thinking with Basso and Heras in the break, but if it's 2005 stage won by Valverde just ahead of Armstrong when they both put a minute or so on Basso, then Heras was dropped from lead group with quite some time to go.

Other examples include Lance and Klodi NOT chasing Contador when he attacked at first mountain stage last year - even though Klodi was at the front, he immediately slowed down and let Schleck do the chasing.

Same with Lance NOT dragging Wiggo up to Schleck and Contador group last year - he would attack only once he got rid of Wiggo.

The only examples of chasing your own teammate that I can think of come from Telekom days when Klodi and Ulle were chasing Vino up the road, instead of forcing Postal/Discovery boys do it for them. That was stupid too. Many people on this forum remember it wrong by the way - they think Vino was chasing Ulrich, which is not how it happened. They remember that they were all involved in it somehow, but don't have the details.

I cannot believe I have to explain to you guys the "do not chase your own teammate" rule. Did you ever race?


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

wow. did everyone see that hug between Contador and Vino after today's stage win?

Tense!!

Clearly Vino was still p!ssed because Finger "chased him down" yesterday.

And Contador was livid that Vino won. "Es todo para Numero Uno, Vino! No es bueno!!"


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Any question who Vino's riding for now? Exactly. 

Same guy Vino ALWAYS rides for- himself.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

jptaylorsg said:


> wow. did everyone see that hug between Contador and Vino after today's stage win?
> 
> Tense!!
> 
> ...


Vino being Vino.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Name the year, stage and kilometer.
> 
> He gets backup for his statement and you will not even give him this one. True hater you are...


OK, point taken - I'm trusting Johan B's comments here. And I don't hate Contrador, so knock it off with the ad hominem comments  

Have a nice day.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

AJL said:


> And I don't hate Contrador, so knock it off with the ad hominem comments
> 
> Have a nice day.


Then why the attack on Contador with the mispelled name implying he is something less than good. I calls em as I sees em.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

LesDiablesRouges said:


> it's no wonder almost everyone from Astana fled to Radioshack despite the strongest rider and likely 2010 TDF winner being at Astana ...


Not saying AC is an angel, or perfect teammate, but my guess is that $$$$ played a lot bigger role in the exodus than AC's personality.

Astana last year - struggling financially, didn't pay riders for a bit, and wasn't guaranteed to be financed this season.

RS appears during the tour has solid financial backing, is offering up good contracts, and has proven management.

Which would you choose?


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Then why the attack on Contador with the mispelled name implying he is something less than good. I calls em as I sees em.


It's called a spelling mistake. And you do not call 'em' very well because I don't hate Contador.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

AJL said:


> It's called a spelling mistake. And you do not call 'em' very well because I don't hate Contador.


AJL - isn't it obvious that anyone criticizing Contador or as much as questioning his tactics or anything he does must be Contador hater.

Maximus and Alberto are sitting in a tree....
K... I.. S... S... I... N... G...!!!


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> Yeah 2003 was boring. Oh wait. . .


I was gonna say except for 2003 but I was too tired from my ride.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*last I checked*

Contador has 4 GTs under his belt and is flirting w/ #5. He doesn't have to be a team mate
he is the Team.
in other words
"it is good to be king"


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