# Hoping this is the right place to ask about the Windsor Knight



## elevated

despite commuting daily for almost ten years on my hybridized ATB, i'm a road bike noob thats finally mentally and financially ready to get into sport cycling.

to do so, i'm strongly considering pulling the trigger on the Windsor Knight, BD's aluminum 30speed Ultegra bike, which is currently selling at about $900.

i've been sized by a LBS as fitting a 58cm Trek 1500, and BD suggests a 58cm for someone between 5'11" and 6'1". i'm just shy of 6'0". 

so i have two questions for the Knight or just Windsor owning crowd: first, does the Knight measure pretty closely to a true 58? i saw another thread here where a BD customer had the bike he received end up being larger than advertised, enough that it was problematic for him.

and more generally, are their any Knight riders (lol) out there that would care to relay their overall impressions of this bike, or any distinctive aspects of it that are worth factoring into a purchase decision? it seems like Motos and Merciers are more popular here but my guess is that all of the BD bikes come out of the same factory. And the Knight currently seems like a pretty solid value.

thanks in advance for any thoughts.


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## shiplombo

you should be able to size yourself with the following geometry chart on the Windsor Bicycles website: http://www.windsorbicycles.com/aluminum.htm

I recently purchased a Motobecane Vent Noir from bikesdirect, which uses a Kinesys-made frameset, just like the Windsor Knight. Not all of the BD bikes are from the same factory, but many if not most come from Kinesys factories in Taiwan. I am pleased so far with my bike and my 54cm frame fit me pretty true to what I expected after test riding other bikes from Trek etc. 

If you are even remotely mechanically-inclined, then you should not have any problem assembling the bike when you receive it. I had to put my rear wheel back in to true when I received mine, which wasnt too bad, but if I was not familiar with truing wheels then I would have had to take it to the LBS. So unless you are prepared to do all your own wrenching, you should factor in money for servicing the bike. You will have to do some minor adjustments to the handlebars, saddle and seatpost to find your best fit.

Should be a fine bike and like you said, a good value - providing it is the right size for you!


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## 20sMotoSpirit

Fully agree with "Ship"!
Also 
Most LBS's will assemble your bike for a small fee... its also a great way to build customer relations with them...Im sure the bike shop that you used to size yourself is not going to be to happy that they lost a sale to the web, but hey! its a free country.. Capitalism rules!

What bike shops make money on are the little things... shoes, pedals, bottles, clothing... its all of the comfort things that you would rather pick out than get them online.. GET THOSE FROM THEM. 

The first windsor knight that I saw was just over a year ago and it was $799 but this was after I bought my 'Sprint' ( ULT/CarbonStay) - 

I would just buy the Knight!


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## Lifelover

You don't really provide enough info to get an exact fit. Chances are a 56 or a 58 would work fine.

It really depends on flexibility and desired bar drop.


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## elevated

thanks for the replies. indeed i've already got an amenable shop lined up to whom i explained that i intended to order a bike online, but that i'd like to pay them to help me dial in the fit and ensure proper final assembly once the ride arrives. they were cool with that especially once i mentioned that i do need to buy shoes and other gear still. 


So, I ran the fit calculator at competitivecyclist.com (that is a nice website) and it produced some interesting numbers relative to the measurements provided by BD for the Knight. i'd be grateful if anyone could shine a little light on my results.

First, for seat tube c-t, the fit calculator gave me a range of acceptable values from 57.7 to 61.1cm, depending on whether i go with 'competitive', 'Eddy', or "French fit', in that order. My understanding is the competitive is more hunkered down, 'aero' if you will, which i will want to be doing comfortably as this bike will be used for both long rides and triathlons. So based on that, a 58cm c-t Knight seems like a good choice.

the next value is more perplexing. According to BD, the top tube c-c length for a 58cm Knight is 54cm. But the fit calculator states that i should be from 56cm to 59 (again ranging from competitive to French fit). Is this problematic? or is this just a function of a really girthy aluminum top tube? Frankly, i don't understanding how you could have a 4cm difference between these two values (c-c and c-t) without a freakishly thick top tube, but again i'm a total noob at this.

finally, for top tube length, the calc said i should range from 55 - 56.6cm, and the BD Knight is 57cm. Are there adjustments that can be made to the seat/handlebars to compensate for approximately 1-2cm of extra length in the top tube (relative to my optimal 'competitive' fit)? or should i be looking at a different model?

Sincere thanks to anyone who's read all the way through this, and cares to reply.


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## Lifelover

elevated said:


> thanks for the replies. indeed i've already got an amenable shop lined up to whom i explained that i intended to order a bike online, but that i'd like to pay them to help me dial in the fit and ensure proper final assembly once the ride arrives. they were cool with that especially once i mentioned that i do need to buy shoes and other gear still.
> 
> 
> So, I ran the fit calculator at competitivecyclist.com (that is a nice website) and it produced some interesting numbers relative to the measurements provided by BD for the Knight. i'd be grateful if anyone could shine a little light on my results.
> 
> First, for seat tube c-t, the fit calculator gave me a range of acceptable values from 57.7 to 61.1cm, depending on whether i go with 'competitive', 'Eddy', or "French fit', in that order. My understanding is the competitive is more hunkered down, 'aero' if you will, which i will want to be doing comfortably as this bike will be used for both long rides and triathlons. So based on that, a 58cm c-t Knight seems like a good choice.
> 
> the next value is more perplexing. According to BD, the top tube c-c length for a 58cm Knight is 54cm. But the fit calculator states that i should be from 56cm to 59 (again ranging from competitive to French fit). Is this problematic? or is this just a function of a really girthy aluminum top tube? Frankly, i don't understanding how you could have a 4cm difference between these two values (c-c and c-t) without a freakishly thick top tube, but again i'm a total noob at this.
> 
> finally, for top tube length, the calc said i should range from 55 - 56.6cm, and the BD Knight is 57cm. Are there adjustments that can be made to the seat/handlebars to compensate for approximately 1-2cm of extra length in the top tube (relative to my optimal 'competitive' fit)? or should i be looking at a different model?
> 
> Sincere thanks to anyone who's read all the way through this, and cares to reply.



I suspect the c-t measurement is to the top of the seat clamp. You can almost ignore the seat tube measurement. When you consider that you can easily adjust the seat height (via seat post) from 1 to 12 inches the actual length of the seat tube does not matter much. How it does matter is it's relation to the head tube. While you could get the correct saddle height on a 52 cm frame, you would end up with a ton of bar drop (saddle to bar drop). Problem is, there is no simple way to calculate bar drop given the geo BD provides. Also, BD ships the bikes out with the fork steerer pre cut and with fairly short spacer stack.

I've always felt bikes should be sized based on Top tube length. It is what maybe the most limited in adjustment. Stems generally only vary from 80 to 140 mm (2 + inches) and if it's angled up or down it is even less. Adjusting the reach can be done by moving the saddle but many people feel that the KOP (knee over pedal) dimension is the most important and that is determined with saddle fore/aft adjustment.

57 is a pretty standard TT length for a 58 frame. The 56 frame has a TT of 56. Not much difference really.

If you are concerned about being Aero you may want to consider the 56. You are want to be more upright than go with the 58. I don't think anyone here or even at BD can be very specific as to what bar drop you can get with either size.

Doesn't you LBS have anything in stock that is similar in price? Even you you pay the same price (+ $100) and only get 105 level components, the value of being able to ride the bike first and the relation ship you build with the shop will be well worth it.

Good Luck dealing with BD


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## elevated

LL-- thanks for the wisdom. very helpful. to answer your Q, i'm in a coastal SoCal town in which the LBS offerings were just way expensive relative to BD; a new Felt (Al frame C fork) like the Knight but with all 105 instead of Ultegra was coming in at 1100. factoring in my nonprofit salary and rent, and the feeling i kept getting that my LBS wanted to clear out what they had on the floor rather than really dial me in, i concluded that it was as much of a gamble to buy from BD after doing as much homework as i could, as it was to go local. But with less money at stake and a 30 money back guarantee on the former. 

Anyways, I just went for it-- pulled the trigger on a 56cm Knight. Spent way too long deciding on that over the 58cm but at this point feel pretty good about it.

First stop will be the same LBS/tri shop i was just denigrating above for a pro-assisted fitting, shoes and shorts. etc. and hopefully that will be the last stop as i've already committed to a lot of mileage over the next few months. 

i will post pics and additional review once it arrives, and try to follow up after a few weeks of riding.


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## elevated

an update on my order process that future purchasers may find useful: 
i ordered my bike from BD on Sunday night (3/30). Hadn't heard anything from BD by Monday night, so I wrote them an email to check in. Tuesday morning i received a reply and a UPS ground tracking number. 
My bike was physically received by UPS to begin its journey to Cali on Tuesday (4/1) at 4:58pm. Right now it's sitting outside LA; estimated delivery is Monday 4/7. So, in all about an 8 day process. Was hoping I'd be up and riding this weekend, but this seems like a reasonable amount of time to wait so i should've just pulled the trigger earlier.

The funniest part is that on Tuesday I ebayed some Look Keo Classics (brand new, 80 bucks shipped, which i was stoked about), and they arrived today. The cart is now fully in front of the horse.


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## elevated

latest update: Windsor Knight received as of a couple hours ago. 

apparently BD packed it in too narrow of a box, because theres a gaping hole in the cardboard around the rear wheel QR lever, which is protruding out from the box and has a nice solid gouge. (photos below)

I'm hoping that the damage is superficial and limited to the lever, but at present don't plan to open the box to investigate further until a UPS inspector is on hand to check it out with me. If theres anything damaged beyond the gouged lever, i fear a blame game between BD and UPS coming on. 

or am i being too picky? is this fairly standard? (part of the hidden price of bikes direct bikes?) 

[oversized pics edited out 04-28-08. available upon request]


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## Lifelover

If you have any doubts about the bike send it back. Contact Mike (screen name BIKESDIRECT) via a PM and let him know.

I'm sure BD will cover return shipping and send you a new bike.


If you think the frame etc. is fine, send Mike a PM and ask for a new skewer and maybe some other freebies to make you happy.


Edit: I just look at the pic directly via you imager hosting site. It's a much better view. I'd be surprised of there is any frame damage. 
There may even be touch up paint in the box. I know other online stores include some.

You still do not have to settle for a damaged (even slightly) new bike. I would ask for either a 10% refund, a 20 % credit at Mike's online store (Bike Island),
or a new bike with no return shipping cost to you. Let him decide which works best for him.


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## California L33

My guess is UPS will take care of the damage. If it got all the way from Taiwan to BD without damage then UPS should be able to get it to you without that happening- and they wouldn't have taken it if the box was like that. Good to let UPS inspect it. It really sucks when something like this happens because you can't ride! Regardless of whether there's any apparent damage to the frame let your bike shop check it carefully to make sure nothing is cracked/out of alignment. 

And please, remember to resize pictures down when linking to them. (Irfanview is free and does it really easily). It's kind of a pain to have to scroll around to find things.


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## covenant

elevated said:


> apparently BD packed it in too narrow of a box, because theres a gaping hole in the cardboard around the rear wheel QR lever, which is protruding out from the box and has a nice solid gouge.


I had the same problem....no damage, just missing parts....


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## California L33

covenant said:


> I had the same problem....no damage, just missing parts....


Neither of these damaged boxes is technically a BD problem. When you ship a package the shipper is the one who isn't supposed to hit the box hard enough to dent it or break it open. Sure, a bigger box might offer more protection, but then the question is- how big should the box be? Should there be 6 inches of foam so UPS or Fedex machinery can eat 6 inches into a box? Since it isn't supposed to intrude at all who's to say it wouldn't eat 7 inches in? 

I've had to ship bikes three times- luckily, without incident every time. Once was a fairly high priced bike and they did put it in a much wider double walled box- probably a 'just in case' precaution. But twice they were shipped in regular bike boxes, no tougher, wider, than those pictured- no trouble.


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## elevated

apologies for not providing follow up info on my little saga and leaving it hanging til now. (i'm sure everyone was on the edge of their seats har har).

Bottom line: the gouged rear skewer was the only damage sustained by the bike. My assessment was that the damage was due primarily to poor packing of the accessories box inside the main box-- it had been jammed-in in a way that pushed the rear QR lever and derailleur against the wall of the box, and left it unusually exposed to what was probably typical UPS handling.

that said, BD was helpful and communicative in dealing with the issue. Mike PMed me back after Lifelover suggested I message him, but i worked primarily with a BD rep named Karla (all over email) who shipped a replacement skewer to me via USPS Priority Mail.

More importantly-- the bike itself. The bottom line here is that i'm basically thrilled with it, and riding it is the funnest damn thing i've done in a long time. Once i finally sorted through the little shipping drama and got the bike in once piece, i took it down to my LBS for a proper fitting and thorough look-over. It took way less time than i expected: the shifting was pretty much good right out of the box, the wheels really close to true, and the fitter's assessment was that overall the bike is a highly worthy machine. The only goofy thing was the the rear tire was mounted backwards on the rim. My budget is pretty lean, so customizations will occur pretty slowly. That said, I replaced the saddle before even riding the bizarrely bulky and crappy stock saddle (the low end one i could afford was way better), and installed Look Keo Classics purchased from eBay instead of the cheapos that ship in the box. Both upgrades felt well worth it.

Given my fitter's impression that this 56cm Knight was a really good choice for me in terms of fit, and my sense of comfort riding so far (have put in about 40 miles since the fit last friday) I have to say that my gamble on relying on the competitivecyclist.com online fit calculator and the kind folks on this forum for the basis of my first-ever road bike purchase ended up being totally worth it. I have a bike i'm really stoked about (it's right next to me here in the office as i type  and saved loads of cash compared to buying a similarly equipped machine from my LBS (who cater to folks with heaps more disposable income than I). I am really grateful for the help and the resources.

So, preliminarily, chalk me up as a satisfied customer. My highly deflated two US cents worth of advice is a recommendation for the Windsor Knight to someone considering spending 800-1000 on a bike, as long as you feel a good measure of confidence on getting the right fit the first time. the time and cost involved in a return/exchange for a different size pretty rapidly wipes out the savings from going with BD versus going through your LBS.

I'll post a pic or two soon, and a more detailed review of the ride quality after i get a meaningful quantity of mileage under my belt.


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## tennis5

Glad you got everything straightened out. Looks like a very nicely equipped bike for the price...welcome to the group and enjoy your ride! Post some photos when you get the chance!


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## Lifelover

Glad it worked out for you.

Now, ride it like you stole it!

Don't rush into a bunch of up grades. They will change very little. There is a quote by one of the legends of racing (Eddy maybe) that goes something along these lines:

"Don't buy up grades, Ride upgrades"

Every time you have the urge to buy an upgrade, set the money aside and when you get enough buy different style of bike bike. A singlespeed/Fixie or a cx/commuter/tourer etc.


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## elevated

> Every time you have the urge to buy an upgrade, set the money aside and when you get enough buy different style of bike bike. A singlespeed/Fixie or a cx/commuter/tourer etc.


haha, great advice... My new Knight is actually kind of the product of that exact approach, given that i saved for it in part by ceasing to put any money into my VW Vanagon.  and the Windsor is definitely a massive upgrade from both that old beast and my slicked out old ATB. 



> Now, ride it like you stole it!


for sure! the speed of this bike is like an addictive drug. i feel like i'll be taking increasingly longer routes to work in the morning.


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## mjrtom

*pictures*

hey

i just bought the same windsor knight 2009 from bd. its in the mail as we speak.
are you still happy with yours? can you post some pictures please?

thanks


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## elevated

Sorry for slacking on posting my followup review and the promised images.
I roughly estimate that i'm now about four to five hundred miles (haven't bought a computer yet... any suggestions?) in to ownership of my Knight, and overall i am loving it. The tuning was remarkably good out of the box, so i rode it as is for the first month or so after i got my professional fit. After that my desire for higher mileage and higher performance started to kick in, so i took Blackie in for a tune. It was just a dream after that-- the joys of Ultegra became very clear to me and every shift became just... tasty. The one other issue that my mechanic fixed related to the only substantive complaint i have about the Knight besides the crap pedals and seat, namely the headset. After multiple attempts by me and the mechanic to adjust and tighten the stock headset, it would still make a little creak everytime i would decelerate with any degree of rapidity. So, he replaced some of the stock plastic parts with spare metal parts he had (sorry, i don't know any technical details beyond that) and the creak is gone and the steering is definitely improved. 

As i mentioned above, this is my first road bike, so i don't havent sense of relative performance. That said, i just love getting on this bike every single time, and can't wait for weekends and the prospect of doing long rides on it.

Other final notes-- 
- I am glad i spent $70 (ebay) on the Look Keo Classics. Really like the action and the way they distribute my weight. They work well for impromptu rides in regular shoes and sandals too. For serious rides, I use Shimano RO99's, which i was nervous about dropping $130 for, but which i've been super grateful for and able to ignore completely because they've never caused a single issue/blister/hotspot, even when brand new. Something of a miracle given my extra wide feet.
- I still have some work to do to dial in my fit with respect to handlebar position, as my thumbs/hands are liable to go numb after about an hour in the saddle unless i consciously move them around and shake them out often. Bought some gloves but they didnt really help at all.
- I think the next upgrade will be a higher end saddle. I got a deal on a closeout, relatively low end Bontrager saddle that immediately replaced the big bulky foam stock one that came in the box, but based on how much i enjoy riding this bike (IE how much time i will probably spend on it), i want to make sure i'm giving the critical plumbing in the taint location the best treatment i can over the long term.
- the dream upgrade will be a custom matte black paint job to wipe out the cheesy logos. probably a while out on this one, but my general happiness with this bike is high enough that i'm able to sit and ponder cosmetics rather than stress over anything problematic.

so, between the carbon fork, the nice light aluminum frame, and perhaps most importantly, the Ultegra Triple, i feel like the Knight is a great value and one i would definitely recommend. Dialing in the other components to one's own personal tastes is important for this bike, but probably something that happens with any bike, BD or LBS, the ends up getting a lot of use.

in conclusion, heres a pic. not too exciting, but its the bike i love. if anyone actually wants a higher res version, more images, or a zoom in on some part of it, let me know.


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## mjrtom

she is beautiful. i just received mine as well and it rides great. havent done any upgrades to it whatsoever. i will eventually, but all in good time.

just thought i'd chime in real quick. have a good one

cheers


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## crahol

So now it's November. What are your comments. I'm considering buying a Knight.


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## Peanya

crahol said:


> So now it's November. What are your comments. I'm considering buying a Knight.


If he got a 58cm, he got too big for him, should have gone 56. What I can tell you is that it's a great value for the price. I'd definitely invest in some Koolstop pads so you can actually stop - the levers are fine, but the shoes stink. I had those brakes on my last bike. 
The wheels are strong, but very heavy. If you get it, there's the best 2 places you can turn that bike into something really nice.


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## rogerstg

According to the thread he bought the 56 and loves it.


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## mjrtom

sorry its been so long. i got the 60cm and it rides great. i absolutely love it. 
havent put as many miles on it as i wouldve liked to (about 600), but still.

unfortunately when my bike came the first time it had a scratch on the top tube. it was very inconvenient but almost expected (since it was shipped from tx to ca). 

if you have enough patients (like i barely did), bd will do their best to convenience you and ship you a new one. the only problem could be the fact that you dont see what you get. but take it from me, it's a great bike.


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## re-cyclist

I know this is an old thread, but if anybody's still listening, approximately how much do your Knights weigh? I was just about to go for the Vent Noir but I'm awfully tempted to pay the extra $200 for the Knight's full Ultegra and external bearing bottom bracket.


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## elevated

i'm curious, so i'll see if i can find a scale and give you a number for my 56cm. might take me a few days.

In the meantime, i will say that i love the full Ultegra and highly recommend it.


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## 20sMotoSpirit

re-cyclist said:


> I know this is an old thread, but if anybody's still listening, approximately how much do your Knights weigh? I was just about to go for the Vent Noir but I'm awfully tempted to pay the extra $200 for the Knight's full Ultegra and external bearing bottom bracket.


Get the Ultegra

The weight is just about the same for the 105/Tiagra with 9spd than with the Ultegra with 10spd. The frame is just about the same. and the wheels almost the same.

Other bikes to consider: 
**Get the Shimano wheels that way if you need to take it to a shop almost any shop would be able to order a part**
----------------------------------------------------------------
Corvus AL - $799
Save money with 105 shifter - for a triple not much difference
External BB
Shimano wheels

Windsor Falkirk - $895
Great bike with incredible parts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Component opinion:
I have problem with triples.you change gears so much you wear the chains out really fast. And not having a good gearing setup like a 53(52)/39/30 

If you really want the triple for climbing get the Knight or the Corvus AL, but if you think you can live without the lower 'granny' gearing Get the Falkirk.

Ask more questions.


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## California L33

20sMotoSpirit said:


> Get the Ultegra
> 
> The weight is just about the same for the 105/Tiagra with 9spd than with the Ultegra with 10spd. The frame is just about the same. and the wheels almost the same.
> 
> Other bikes to consider:
> **Get the Shimano wheels that way if you need to take it to a shop almost any shop would be able to order a part**
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Corvus AL - $799
> Save money with 105 shifter - for a triple not much difference
> External BB
> Shimano wheels
> 
> Windsor Falkirk - $895
> Great bike with incredible parts.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Component opinion:
> I have problem with triples.you change gears so much you wear the chains out really fast. And not having a good gearing setup like a 53(52)/39/30
> 
> If you really want the triple for climbing get the Knight or the Corvus AL, but if you think you can live without the lower 'granny' gearing Get the Falkirk.
> 
> Ask more questions.


A lot of Shimano wheels have spokes with nipples at the hubs. They're non-standard, and even bike shops that carry them often don't have replacement spokes and they have to be ordered. Spokes on good wheels don't break often, but it is something to consider. 

On my triple bikes I've never noticed particularly fast chain wear, and it's such an inexpensive part that I wouldn't consider it- only whether the granny was needed for hills.


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## Xanlact

Another nooblet looking at the Knight here. Trying to decide between that, the Sprint, Corvus AL, or Falkirk (obviously going to be from BD...i don't have a budget for a Trek). 

Seems to me that the biggest hurdle for new folk is the lingo. I always hear of the advantages of a triple (which is why the Falkirk makes me wonder). But what kind of climbing do people talk about? Is it that much of an advantage to have a triple Knight over a double Falkirk? 

You see so much negativity about one part or the other, that it is difficult to decide. I'm not planning on long races or anything hardcore (just the occasional sprint Triathlon..which is just a 12k bike ride usually). So... can someone tell me about the crank and/or wheelsets on these bikes? 

I was going to order a Knight today, but am going to hold off a little more.


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## 20sMotoSpirit

Xanlact said:


> Another nooblet looking at the Knight here. Trying to decide between that, the Sprint, Corvus AL, or Falkirk (obviously going to be from BD...i don't have a budget for a Trek).
> 
> Seems to me that the biggest hurdle for new folk is the lingo. I always hear of the advantages of a triple (which is why the Falkirk makes me wonder). But what kind of climbing do people talk about? Is it that much of an advantage to have a triple Knight over a double Falkirk?
> 
> You see so much negativity about one part or the other, that it is difficult to decide. I'm not planning on long races or anything hardcore (just the occasional sprint Triathlon..which is just a 12k bike ride usually). So... can someone tell me about the crank and/or wheelsets on these bikes?
> 
> I was going to order a Knight today, but am going to hold off a little more.



For some people ( like myself), I really like to have a very clean look to my rig. The compact double makes a lot of sense to me - weight, gear ratios, simplicity and esthetics. But I did start out on a triple, I used the small triple for a long time and I got strong enough to use only my 52/39 rings. 

The climbing that I did was Mt. Hamilton (SJ and Livermore side), empire grade (HW 236) 

many other 15-20% grades 


The knight is a great bike - but is an endurance bike - I would save the money and buy the CorvAL.


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## Xanlact

Yeah, though I may do a century ride some day, probably not for a couple of years. I'm in Virginia, so there are plenty of hills, but I don't expect to get on long, steep climbs. I prefer a flatter, speedier ride. 

I'll take another look at the Corvus. Save a hundred bucks..which may go into a saddle upgrade, I'd guess. lol


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## re-cyclist

*double vs triple*

A good distillation of the double vs triple debate can be found here: http://www.chainreaction.com/triples.htm
My internal Knight vs Falkirk debate wasn't seeing any resolution, so I decided to stick with my old bike for the time being. However, I'm still interested in knowing how much some of these BD bikes in the $700 - $900 range weigh.


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## California L33

Xanlact said:


> Another nooblet looking at the Knight here. Trying to decide between that, the Sprint, Corvus AL, or Falkirk (obviously going to be from BD...i don't have a budget for a Trek).
> 
> Seems to me that the biggest hurdle for new folk is the lingo. I always hear of the advantages of a triple (which is why the Falkirk makes me wonder). But what kind of climbing do people talk about? Is it that much of an advantage to have a triple Knight over a double Falkirk?
> 
> You see so much negativity about one part or the other, that it is difficult to decide. I'm not planning on long races or anything hardcore (just the occasional sprint Triathlon..which is just a 12k bike ride usually). So... can someone tell me about the crank and/or wheelsets on these bikes?
> 
> I was going to order a Knight today, but am going to hold off a little more.


The way I look at it is this-

You can't go wrong with a triple. You can go wrong with a double.

You're a noob. You've got hills. Do you really want to have to avoid them if you find things dicey on a double? 

That said, if you can get a compact double that is what I'd take. They lack a bit on the top. They lack a bit on the bottom, but it's usually only one gear when you calculate the ratios. What you really don't want is a standard double with a 12-23 or 11-23 rear cassette. If you decide to go with a standard double get a 12-27 if you can. And I know you said you can't afford a Trek (or Specialized, or etc., etc.- there are a lot of good bikes out there), but have you considered used? I'm not knocking BD, but if you buy used at least you'll get a test ride. 

What do I ride? My old road bike had a double and steep hills were always an issue. My first modern road bike had a triple. My second (and primary ride now) has a double. If I'm riding up mountains I take the triple equipped bike, virtually everything else the double because it's a better bike. I'd like to get into the kind of shape where that isn't an issue, but it is. Hills are actually better on the double bike because it's 17.5 pounds, while the triple bike is 22 pounds. Keep in mind most of that extra weight is in the frame and other components, not the drive train.


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## Xanlact

Yes, too many hills to avoid. So the doubles really aren't in. Compacts are..as are triples. 
I'm not in love with BD..but the bikes have good components and a good price. I'm still looking around, comparing online vs LBS, etc. 

It is frustrating. I'm usually an impulse buyer. lol I'm taking a long time on this one.


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## TysonCook

I've had a Knight for appx 8 months, didn't ride much during the winter but I've got appx 300-400mi on it. Plan on switching out the saddle, but otherwise, its a great beginner bike. I had no issues with BD, and will probably pick one up for my wife soon. Weight wise I have no idea, but its in the 20lb range.


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## Kmccleary9

I'm trying to decide between the Windsor Fens (Full 105's) and the Windsor Knight. Is it really worth it to get the Ultegra for 
$200 more? Also, how much better of a wheel set are the XRP's (Knight) compared to the Alex (Fens)? I weigh 235...

The Knight is a little high for my budget. Should I save the $200 and invest in a seat/better clipless pedals? (How are the stock, 2 bolt pedals?)

I am buying this bike mainly for recreation and some group rides. Maybe with the occasional century.


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## mjrtom

to tell you the truth, if the fens was available when i bought my knight, i wouldve probably gone for it. dont get me wrong, i love my knight. and i would say that the full ultegra and the wheel set of the knight is worth the extra $200 dollars...but it all comes down to whether or not your budget clocks. in other words, paying $200 less for the 105, isnt necessarily a bad thing.

personally i love the two bolt clipless pedals. i got myself i pair of Forté CM320 mountain bike shoes, and now in the rare occasion that i have to get off my bike and walk somewhere, it doesnt look like i **** myself.


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## Kmccleary9

Well after months of researching I just pulled the trigger on the Windsor Knight. The Fens and Vent Noir were out of stock in 56cm. Do you guys think this wheel set will stand up to 235 pounds? The fewer spokes worry me (first road bike).


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## mjrtom

yea dude you'll be fine. their fatter spokes, and more aerodynamic. and it looks sick. enjoy your bike


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## dkw

Just got my Windsor Falkirk and am a happy camper so far.


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## elevated

Kmccleary9 said:


> Well after months of researching I just pulled the trigger on the Windsor Knight. The Fens and Vent Noir were out of stock in 56cm. Do you guys think this wheel set will stand up to 235 pounds? The fewer spokes worry me (first road bike).


not sure if i got a lemon rear wheel on my Knight but after less than a year (of some admittedly hard riding) i started popping spokes regularly. sacked up and bought a pair of Mavic Open Pros with Ultegra hubs and my life has been blissfully free of having to think about or stress about wheels since.

anyways, be advised. i concluded that the stock Knight wheelset is pretty low grade.


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## TysonCook

I haven't had any spoke problems, but I ride smooth pavement and have ~500mi on it, and weigh 170lbs, so it may still happen. I'm still very happy with my purchase.


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## Christoph

elevated said:


> 56cm


Hey, Elevated. You bought a 56cm Knight, right? You still okay with the fit? What's your inseam measurement? Do you remember? I did the fit calculator too, and all the measurements for a 56cm bike are on the chart for me (competitive, Eddy, or French) and none of my measurements are on the chart for a 54cm bike. I'm concerned though because I'm only 5'9" and you said you're almost 6 foot and you got the 56 instead of the 58. So, do you wish you got the 58? Or has the 56 been okay?


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## heytoyotaguy

Hello all first id like to say that i am happy to have found a place that does not attack people because they decide not to buy a uber expensive bike from a lbs. any way i bought a Falkirk almost one year ago and i have the ultegra sl package with shimano wheels and i have to say i love my bike. I did however needed to make some modifications the stem on my bike was too long and made me feel like i was over reaching. $40 fixed that with a 80mm stem. then my hands could not reach the brake levers on the drops. $40 fixed that with a new compact handle bar. Ofcourse i had to upgrade the seat so $40 fixed that with a bontrager saddle. So far you could not beat the smile off my face. The weight is not a big issue the bike cant weigh more than 20lbs and i weigh 240 so im not too worried about 20lbs. As for the spokes and wheel worries of some of you the wheels that came with my bike are super storng at my heaviest 289lbs they held up to every crack and bump that the crappy los angeles streets could throw at them. I have even bunny hopped over cracks and no problems. so dont stress about the spokes or the weight ratigs on them unless you go carbon. any way thanks for reading i hope every one loves their windsor asmuch as i do. (ps this is my second windsor the first was a wellington 2.0 w a triple cranck sora rear derailour and alex wheels great bike but got hit by a car and was put out 3mos. after i bought it. That is when i bought the falkirk)


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## yam

I have one. 23 pounds in a 58cm frame with everything installed.


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## heytoyotaguy

*bontrager inform R saddle*

I bought an inform R saddle from my local bike shop because it was on sale and it was fitted to me. It was very comfortable and had plenty of range. The saddle was only $46 dollars on sale so i felt i made off like a theif, but two months later and maybe 20 rides into it i noticed that the Plether was starting to tear on the back of the saddle. If you are familiar with this saddle you know it has two sharp points in the back, well the sharp points is where the plether started to tear. I took it back to the lbs luckaly with in the 90 day return time frame and was given another saddle. so far its holding up but the lbs guy said that its a common problem. So be aware that if you buy this saddle you will probably have this issue keep an eye on it and save your receipt. :thumbsup:


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## heytoyotaguy

yam said:


> I have one. 23 pounds in a 58cm frame with everything installed.


is it a falkirk?


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## yam

heytoyotaguy said:


> is it a falkirk?


Windsor Knight


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## heytoyotaguy

yam said:


> Windsor Knight


i belive its the same frame.:thumbsup:


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## Peter_T

*Another Noob With a New Windsor Knight*

I got my 58cm* Windsor Knight in early June. It is my first road bike. Besides commuting on a very heavy, low-end Trek mountain bike for eleven years, I had no prior cycling experience. The Knight arrived here in Highland Falls, NY, without a blemish, and in need of only minor adjustments. Riding it has been the highlight of of my Summer, and as far as I can tell it is the only reason that I have dropped from 235 to 215 Ibs. since June -- I certainly haven't cut down on beer or barbeque, or added any other new sort of exercise. I was out of shape when I got the bike, and without the triple I might have given up trying to get up the steep hills here in the Hudson Highlands, before I really had a chance to fall in love with the bike. Now I challenge myself to use the granny chainring as little as possible; but I still need it on the longest, steepest grades.

I got the Windsor Knight because an experienced cyclist friend (who is the coach of the local university cycling team) told me not to get less than Ultegra components, and the Windsor was the only Ultegra group bike I could afford. (I almost bought a used Bianchi with Ultegra components on this site; but someone beat me to it.) Anyway, I have nothing to compare them to, but the Ultegra and SRAM components seem great: I can feel the quality when I shift, adjust the gears, and so on.

I looked at lots of these threads before I decided to get the Windsor Knight, and I agree with the two most common complaints: the seat and the pedals that come with the bike are garbage, especially the seat. Plan on replacing the seat right away. I used the pedals for most of the Summer: they work fine but they are SPDs (mountain bike peddles, with a very narrow power focus) and they seemed weighted backwards, so that I always had to look down and flip them with my foot before clipping in -- a real nuisance. The solutions that I arrived at, on a very slim budget, were a Selle Bassiano seat with the in my opinion crucial cut-out (bright yellow but >$40 from Amazon.com) and Nashbar Ventoux Mag 2 pedals (>40 from Nashbar.com). I am very happy with these cheap upgrades, and my hope is that they will last until I can afford a Selle Italia saddle and good Keo Look pedals.

I do my own work on the bike, slowly and with much help from bicycletutor.com. As I understand it, nothing that I have done (assembly, mild adjustments and upgrades) would have been very expensive at an LBS.


*I am 6' 2", but with short legs and long arms.


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## Spencer.mad

My knight is in the mail, I got a 52 cm. I'll weigh it and post a review as soon as I get it.


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## Peter_T

Spencer, I hope that you like yours' as much I have liked mine so far. I look forward to seeing what yours' weighs: a bit less than the 58cm I would think.

I recently did my third major upgrade on mine (after seat and peddles): after 1100 miles I replaced the stock Michelin Dynamic tires with Vittoria Open Corsas. The stock tires are very durable -- mine haven't worn out -- but the Corsas immediately, noticeably improved my ride quality. They roll better and handle better than the stock tires.

So far I have had no flats and only one part failure on my Knight: I broke the stock 105 chain last week because I underestimated an upcoming steep grade and then desperately shifted down to the granny with the drivetrain under maximum stress. Bang! (My fault, I think most readers will agree.) Since then I repaired the stock chain but did not put it back on the bike. I replaced it on the bike with a Dura Ace (7801) chain and I hold the stock chain in my garage as a reserve. Posts on this forum about the 7801 chain are very diverse: some report breaking them after only two weeks, some report going 5000 miles on them. I haven't had 7801 long enough to report on its durability, but for what it's worth it seems to me to shift a bit better on the Knight than the stock chain did.


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## old_fuji

how do motobecane or windsor frames compare in size to, say cannondale, trek, or specialized?


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## 20sMotoSpirit

Peter_T said:


> stock chain in my garage as a reserve. Posts on this forum about the 7801 chain are very diverse: some report breaking them after only two weeks, some report going 5000 miles on them. I haven't had 7801 long enough to report on its durability, but for what it's worth it seems to me to shift a bit better on the Knight than the stock chain did.


Shimano recommends that you replace your chain from between 1500-2000 miles depending on the rider. This is because chains do stretch and if the chains stretch beyond a certain limit they can damage chainrings and cassettes. Most shops will have a chain checker - but if you are an avid rider and put about 100 miles a week on your bike for 30-40 weeks of the year. you will burn through a chain in about 3 months.


I rode my Ultegra chain for 3500 miles and the only reason i was going to replace it was because I was looking to do my annual overhaul on my bike. However, I did also have to replace my cassette which was a $140 lesson I would care not to repeat. I am just glad that I was able to keep my chainrings.

Just like changing your oil. A chain is cheap!


BTW my new DA 7801 chain and 7800 Cassette are amazing! Would recommend the DA7801 chain to anyone - its really quiet!


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## Peter_T

Maybe this will help: At 6',2", with short legs (only a 32.5" inseam) and a long torso and arms, I can easily choose, by seat and stem adjustments, between good French or Eddy fits on my 58 cm Windsor Knight, and I can come close to a competitive fit -- although if I really wanted a competitive fit I would have gone with the 56cm. I like to ride Eddy fit (a compromise fit) for what it's worth.

I hope that helps with your question. I have no experience with Motobecane or the other frames you mention, except for test riding a 57cm Cannondale once, which fit me perfectly and rode like a dream.


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## Spencer.mad

I have just over $200 to spend on upgrades, what should I replace immediately? 

I have never ridden pedals that require cleats, so I'm putting $90 aside for shoes.

I'm left with $110, I'll put $30 away for a new saddle

I'm left with $80, I can buy Look Keo Classics if you think the stock pedals are that bad.

Comments please


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## 20sMotoSpirit

re-cyclist said:


> I know this is an old thread, but if anybody's still listening, approximately how much do your Knights weigh? I was just about to go for the Vent Noir but I'm awfully tempted to pay the extra $200 for the Knight's full Ultegra and external bearing bottom bracket.


One - Good choice! the Ultegra shifting is very crisp. I have tired riding newer 2009 105 and its not the same. even the Tiagra (Noir shifters) dont feel like my Ultegra.

My 'Sprint' before i sold it was about 19lbs with pedals for a 56cm frame. I would say the bike is around that much.


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## Peter_T

The pedals and seat are the only things I would change immediately. Tires are a nice luxury upgrade to consider in the future; but the tires that come on the bike ride well and are durable.

I rode on the Knight's stock pedals for over a month. Serviceable but a nuisance. The switch to Look-style pedals was a big improvement, both in power transfer and ease of use. On a tight budget myself, instead of Looks I got the Nashbar Look knock-offs I mention above. Those use Look cleats and they've been great so far. They're closed bearings so they won't last forever. But when they go I can hopefully replace them with real Looks.

As far as saddles go, I discovered that a nearby LBS has a $10 saddle box, with lots of saddles that previous owners didn't like. Many were junk stock saddles, but there were some decent ones in there, too. (Almost all, stock or not, looked more serviceable than that thing they put on the Knight.) Maybe an LBS near you has something like that. Otherwise, there are lots of good inexpensive saddles on the Internet.


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## Peter_T

Oh, and if you get shoes that are both SPD and Look compatible (like Shimano RO75s), then you won't need new shoes if you ride the stock SPDs and later convert to Look cleat pedals.


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## AgeOldRider

Hey guys, new member here:

I wanted to share my experience(s) with body pain during riding. I am 53 years old and just recently had back surgery. However, the surgeon mucked things up when he nicked my spinal cord with his scalpel. As a result, I developed what's called "Adhesive Arachnoiditis." What this is, is scarring along the arachnoid lining covering the spinal cord. Believe me, it's a terrible thing to have to happen, and is permanently disabling. As a result, I lost all control of my legs, and was confined to a wheelchair. The doc said to get used to it, that I would most likely never walk again.

Well, about 16 months later, I started feeling weird twitches in my legs. Then both legs began to cramp at the same time so bad, I thought I was going to die. This lasted for several months, after which, it began to ease up. No one was more surprised than I was when, one day, I tried to stand up. It took me a couple of weeks, but one day, there I stood on my own two feet. It took me another six months or so, to re-teach myself and my legs how to walk again. But I got my ass out of that wheelchair!

To me, I was gifted a huge second chance in life, and took the bulls by both horns. I actually started riding bike! I started around the block (I live in the country near a lake where "the block" is actually one mile around.) I stayed at it until I could go three times around. Then five times. Then ten times, and finally, 18 miles around the entire lake! But this seemed to be my limit because of, not back pain as you might suspect, but neck, shoulder, and tailbone pain. My hands would even go numb.

At this time I was riding (and still am) an older 12-speed Fuji Del Rey. The bike is nice and light, coming in on my doctor-style scale at just 22 lbs., but forces you into what I would call a cramped tuck position. My limit wound up being 25 miles before the pain forced me to stop. As it is, I live in very hilly country that is ALWAYS windy. Some days, it's a real battle just to make it back home.

Anyway, I took the bike to a Trek dealer, and explained to him my problems. It was learned that all I needed was a $35.00 low angle riser that brought the ram horn style bars up just a bit, and a bit closer. My new seat has a wedge look at the rear in order to create more "room" for my junk. Anyway, to make a long story short, these two items solved all my problems, and have now worked up to 50 miles runs. I would go further, but there's no fix for being out of shape; except for to push it to the limit every time I go out.

For what it's worth, there it is. Thanks for hearing me out.


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## sometimerider

AgeOldRider said:


> Anyway, to make a long story short, these two items solved all my problems, and have now worked up to 50 miles runs. I would go further, but there's no fix for being out of shape; except for to push it to the limit every time I go out.


Wow, that's really encouraging recovery (your story makes me glad I refused the back surgery I was offered a few years back).

Your position on the bike can make a huge difference in your comfort. Folks talk a lot about the importance of "bike fit", but, as you found, much can be done to tweak a given bike to make it more ridable for you.


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## AgeOldRider

I failed to mention that I ballooned to 320 lbs. while stuck in that damn wheelchair, but after riding bike this summer, have lost 75 lbs.! I bought an indoor cycle trainer for the winter months, and have every intention of picking back up where I left off in '09. Right now I weight 245, and would like to see another 50 or so gone by the end of 2010. I know I owe my weight loss to biking because I would weigh myself before each ride, and after a 35 to 45 mile stint, would come back home as much as 5 lbs. lighter! This is something I could never do by diet alone. I know because I tried.

My old 12-speed Fuji Del Rey gets the job done, but I have been eyeballing the Windsor Knight for sometime now. One of these days, when I decide to pull the trigger (and after reading all the posts about the Knight), I will most probably go for that one. Thanks guys!


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## NightLights

spencer mad.
whats your inseam and does it go well with the fifty two?
mind taking a couple pics? im tempted to buy one,
well acctually this is the ONLY one im considering full ultegra...how
can i pass up if its only a couple hundred above the entry!

so ANYONE with any pictures, it'd be great if i could see it in natural light you know?


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## Spencer.mad

It's an extremely attractive and flashy bike, especially because I got black and red bottle cages  its a nice color theme.

this is a low quality pic i took with my phone and uploaded to facebook when it was first assembled (I had my LBS do it)

https://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._194771016056_656931056_3837921_4469620_n.jpg

the first thing you should know about sizing is the fact that it is not a compact frame. it's not as adjustable. if you normally ride 54cm bikes, go with the 52, if you normally ride 52, go with the 50. 

with this bike, the standover isnt what you should be worrying about, so much as the length of the top tube. for me, the standover was fine, perfect even, but i was over extended reaching for the drop down handlebars. i slid my seat all the way forward and flipped the stem to compensate, put spacers in the shifters and now it's just okay.

I gotta go now-- my bus is coming but I'm happy to answer more questions in depth.


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## Spencer.mad

As someone who rode an entry level bike, giant ocr3, for two years and then made the switch to ultegra with the Windsor knight, I can vouch it's worth it. Unless you do your own wrenching, you'll save money with more expensive and higher quality components.. I had to get my derailleurs adjusted weekly, my brake pads replaced, my wheels trued monthly, the list goes on. Quality over quantity. If you're spending 500, go the extra step with the knight. The STI themselves was reason enough for me to get the knight, I hated not being able to shift without taking my hands out of drop position.

The Windsor is a sexy bike, slightly heavy (22lbs) but that's mostly due to the frame, it's welding is veryyy thick. With the knight, you're paying for the components. An ultegra groupset would go for roughly the same price, and this is a whole bike. Pedals, frame, cables, stem, handlebars, fork, headset, seat and post. There is no deal like the knight anywhere. I was on the market for a new bike for six months, hawk eyed eBay, craigslist, bikesdirect, tommaso, etc. The knight prevails. 

I'm writing this on my phone on the bus so if at points I don't make sense, sorry.


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## NightLights

Thank you so much
it looks like its pretty sweet,
does this bike feel like a new aluminum bike
i went to my LBS and tried out a trek 1.2
it was really light and had a clean, easy feel to it
when you pick it up and wheel it around.
is this the same feel?


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## AgeOldRider

Although my old steel quad-lugged Fuji Del Rey 12-speed weighs the same as the Knight, coming in at 22 lbs. naked, what really bogs it down is the fact that I have to load it up for bear every time I go for a ride. Otherwise, if something happens, I got no way back home except to hoof with bike in tow. And, when your 20 - 25 miles out one way...

I carry two water bottles, a top tube satchel loaded with ID, glasses, meds (because I'm type II diabetic, and hope to be rid of this affliction when the rest of my weight comes off) money, keys and the like, and an under seat storage bag filled to the brim with a can of "Insta-Flat Fix," a patch kit, rather heavy and bulky multi-tool, a couple of other must have tools not included with the multi-tool like a spoke wrench with extra spokes, an extra long Allen wrench set, and extra chain along with a chain link repair tool. Mounted under one of my water bottle cages is a high pressure hand pump. When all is said and done, my bikes total weight then comes in at 30 lbs. Then you got to ad my fat ass, down from 320 or so (thanks to my stint with a wheelchair,) to a still whopping 245. While I may have lost 75 lbs. riding, I still have 75 to go. And by fall of 2010, I hope to be there.

All in all, the Del Rey is a nice riding bike, but like you, I absolutely hate to have to reach for the down tube every time I want or need to shift the bike (which is all the time!) The three things the Knight has going for it (IMHO) are the FlightDeck compatible components, it's 30-speed Ultegra gear set (because where I live it's very hilly and always windy. I'm always fighting one of the two, if not both at the same time. Most of my hills are the kind that start out steep, looking like a wall as you approach them, that just seem to grow longer and steeper the further up them you go. And, as soon as you clear one of them, there's another one waiting to take its place,) and its carbon fork to help with road absorption. I think that, while the Windsor Knight is a no-name brand name bike, it still has a lot going for it based on its component/cost ratio. 

So, after I'm thru dishing out all this fat-ass abuse to the Fuji, I will get the Knight.


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## Spencer.mad

Yes, if you get the right size. If I'm not mistaken te 1.2 is lesser components for more money. Lesser wheels as well as drivetrain

I've ridden a 1.2 and I know what you're talking about. It's the same feel just 2 or 3 lbs heavier


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## heytoyotaguy

Just an update i have to point out and admitt that our fabulus bikes dont really come with the full ultegra gruppo.. The brakes are ususaly tek-tro which is a decent brake set up dont get me wrong it does the job. Also our bikes come with fsa or truvativ cranks also decent components that do the job. The point is that i wanted to boast about purchasing a new set of ultegra sl front and rear brakes.... spectacular..... and my bike is now closer than ever to having a full ultegra gruppo. My wheels have ultegra hubs and mavic wheels my shifters are ultegra and my derailurs and cassete are now ultegra. The only thing that is not ultegra is the crank and the peddals but i am happy with my fsa crank and performance bike pedals they do the job. by the way for those of you who are lookinng to buy peddals i recomend finding a performance bike near you and going on a holliday weekend they usually have there house brand pedals on sale for like 40 dollars. happy riding.


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## CCarr

*Windsor Knight*

Hi there. First of all ive been lurking for a while and thought I would jump into my first post for some advise. 

I have been riding now for a couple months on my Dads old Bianchi steel bike. Its a 10 speed and a little big, 60cm and I am just over 6'. With my feet on the ground the top tube is pretty high in the groin area almost uncomfortable.

The area I live in, SF Bay, has a fair amount of hills and climbs that can be pretty taxing with that bike and gear a ratio. 

In my search for a new bike I came across the Windsor Knight and had a a few questions/ opinion probes.

1)Would this be a good first bike for someone at my level?

2) At just over 6' what size would the current owners recommend?

3) Can anybody take a guess at what a stock steel 1980's bianchi frame weighs, just so I can compare? 

Any other issues/ advise about the Windsor Knight or cycling in general would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks

CCH


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## d_pavlica

*my review of Windsor Knight*

Been riding for years, used to have a nice Lemond road bike, 61cm. I am 6'4", 210 lbs and don't race so I don't really give a damn about the extra pound of two. On the other hand, I do ride 100 miles a week on average, commuting or just recreationally, and understand how a road bike should work and feel, different components, what you should pay, etc.

As you can see on your own, the Knight comes with Ultegra gruppo, only you get Techtro brakes (fine) and FSA bottom bracket and crank (also seem fine to me at this point.)

I got my Windsor Knight, 62cm, last week. The box was in really bad shape but no damage to any of the bike parts. I just turned the whole thing over to my favorite LBS and they put it together and tuned it nicely, all for $50 - FAR less than sales tax in Chicago if I were to buy a comparable bike here.

I took it out for two rides so far, about 30-35 miles each. No century ride yet but from what I have seen so far is that the bike is comfortable and the drive train is silky-smooth. Everything shifts and works perfectly, the bike is fast, and all I hear while riding is the wind - just how it ought to be.

I really didn't want a triple in the front but got it anyway. I may never use the granny gear but what the hell, it doesn't bother me. I use that middle chainring 80-90% of the time and the large one the rest of the time. It was a good deal from bikesdirect.com. Not impressed with their customer service but you can't have it all. 

What came to me as some surprise and what I would advise you look at before you buy is the geometry. I bought a 62cm bike. When I adjust the seat where I need it, it is a good 3" or so above the handlebars. My old Lemond which was 61cm (should be same as Trek geometry) actually had the handlebars right around the same height as the seat adjusted the same way I have the seat now on this new Windsor. So that was a less agressive riding position that should be more comofrtable, in theory. Or so I expected... did I mention the new Windsor is comfortable? Yes, it's definitely comfortable, for a 35-mile ride anyway. So again, this was a bit of a surprise when I saw the bike assembled and I thought I may need a new stem based on what I had before and am used to. But I decided to try it as I received it and I like it. Ask me again after my first century ride on it, but I like it very much at this point.

I see that Windsor posts the geometry chart right on the web site. Try and find the same from Trek and - good luck. I looked up Kestrel chart and see that their 62cm is about the same in all measurements as my new 62cm Windsor Knight. I just wanted to look at it to compare what I have now with what I used to have on the old road bike. Not that it really matters at this point; I like everything about my new bike, and I would fully recommend this to anyone looking for a great bike at a great price. Just make your own decision on the geometry.


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## Mikethebike33322

*Hardcore bike she is!*

I purchased my windsor knight in 2010. Replaced the seat, tires and the handlebar tape. I now have 11,000 miles on it. Thats hardcore, as I use it for commuting and touring in the heat of South Florida. This is the best bike for the price I could find, including Trek. I am soooooo happy i bought it! Good luck.


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## Mikethebike33322

I purchased my windsor knight in 2010. Replaced the seat, tires and the handlebar tape. I now have 11,000 miles on it. Thats hardcore, as I use it for commuting and touring in the heat of South Florida. This is the best bike for the price I could find, including Trek. I am soooooo happy i bought it! Good luck.


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## Captante

heytoyotaguy said:


> i belive its the same frame.:thumbsup:



To the best of my knowledge the Fens, Falkirk & Knight all use the same frame/fork.


*Edit:* Whoops ... my bad posting in a necro! :blush2:


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