# saddle centre cutout - gimmick or not?



## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

hello everyone

another saddle sob story.

I have a Selle Italia Flite Gelflow saddle with centre cut-out. I am a male, weight ~150# (~67kg), 173 cm short (~5 foot 8.5 inches). The saddle top of the nose and its rear is absolutely level (checked with spirit-level device). But its surface is a bit hammock-like. 

I ride on Assos F1.13 bib/brace so the butt padding is first class, IMHO.

Strangely enough I get a numb/pain feeling (pressure based) around the area where the saddle centre cut-out is. The pain goes away once I lift off for ~30-60 seconds and comes back some minutes after I sit down. The saddle width seems fine (no seat bones pain and no sores post ride) and I do try to sit on the wide part of the saddle (it's rear) but still the numb-pressure-like pain occurs near the centre of the saddle, right where the in-seam meets the saddle centre..... As the pain appears to be coming around the cut-out area which prompts my question/poll....

What percentage of you good people do find the centre cut-out really works and is preferred to the solid saddle? Does anyone else find the centre cut-out cause any problems? Do most professionals on tour prefer solid saddles or centre cut-outs? What do most road riders use?

Is it possible that I need to ditch the centre hole and get a solid saddle (S/I or Fizik or San Marco)? Or is it most likely the problem is not the centre cut-out but my position on the saddle? or the shape of the saddle perhaps?

thanks


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## bikejr (Jul 30, 2004)

acid_rider said:


> hello everyone
> 
> another saddle sob story.
> 
> ...


 Saddles are so individualistic. That's why only you can be the judge. You can get some general ideas on a forum, of where to start looking, but 100 people on hear may swear by a saddle, yet it may not work for your shape. There unfortunately isn't a standard that works for everyone. I had a saddle I liked, told a friend, he bought it and he hated it. Regardless of what people say you have to trial and error and find what works for you. It could be cut out, could be not cut out. Could be narrow, could be wider. Different things work for different people. For me it doesn't make a difference on the cutout. I can ride either with or without it seems. My standard saddle doesn't have the cutout and have never seen the need to extensively test a saddle with a cutout.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Adjustment*

Per bikejr, saddles are pretty individual. However, the low cost approach for you may be to tilt the nose of your saddle down a bit. It sounds like this might help. My saddle, if it were level (nose to butt) would have a hammock shape, and I know that would not work for me. I ride with the nose level and the butt elevated. The butt is where I rest my sit bones, and so there is a lot less pressure on the nose. You might try this before trying other saddles.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Fart slots seem like a gimmick for people who haven't found a saddle that fits their sit bones, but some people really like them.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*thanks! so how much to tilt as a first cut at the problem?*



Kerry Irons said:


> Per bikejr, saddles are pretty individual. However, the low cost approach for you may be to tilt the nose of your saddle down a bit. It sounds like this might help. My saddle, if it were level (nose to butt) would have a hammock shape, and I know that would not work for me. I ride with the nose level and the butt elevated. The butt is where I rest my sit bones, and so there is a lot less pressure on the nose. You might try this before trying other saddles.


thanks, I will try this. How many mm or degrees would you start tilting the nose of the saddle by? 5mm nose down too much?


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## KenB (Jul 28, 2004)

acid_rider said:


> thanks, I will try this. How many mm or degrees would you start tilting the nose of the saddle by? 5mm nose down too much?


 Start level then take it down 1 or 2mm at a time until you find the sweet spot. Don't make drastic changes or more than one adjustment at time. Ride it for a while and see. I could take a while before you find the sweet spot _if _there is one to be found for you and that saddle.


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## ARP (Mar 7, 2002)

*Gimmick AFAIC*



acid_rider said:


> hello everyone
> 
> another saddle sob story.
> 
> ...


Tried a Terry Fly, my opinion is that the cutout makes the saddle weaker. Mine felt like i was resting on the rails and felt every jolt from the road like a cattle prod. Riding Brooks and San Marcos at this point.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*yes, I think you summed it up very well for me*



Lone Gunman said:


> Tried a Terry Fly, my opinion is that the cutout makes the saddle weaker. Mine felt like i was resting on the rails and felt every jolt from the road like a cattle prod. Riding Brooks and San Marcos at this point.


Yes, it does, kind of, feel like I am sitting on the rails in my case also. Well put. Thanks.

Keep all those ideas and suggestions flowing, folks. Much appreciated.


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## Thumper (Mar 18, 2005)

acid_rider said:


> Yes, it does, kind of, feel like I am sitting on the rails in my case also. Well put. Thanks.
> 
> Keep all those ideas and suggestions flowing, folks. Much appreciated.


I will never ride without a cutout again. I have Terrys on 2 tandems, 2 roadbikes, and my mountain bike. Of course many riders don't see the need. Whatever it takes to keep you riding.

I have 2 hammock shaped Terrys (Liberator and Ti Race), on those bikes, I have the nose slightly up because that puts the rear 2/3 of the seat more or less level and I seldomly ride in an aero position anymore. On my flat Terrys (Fly and Dragonfly), I run them level. I used to have them slightly nose down, but now that I've raised my bar height, I've found level to be most comfortable.

On those Terrys with the larger cutout, there is some minor chafing at the start of the riding year, 2 or 3 rides max.

I have a Sella Italia Flite Ti that came on my new bike if you never get used to the cutout, maybe you'd be interested in a trade? I took the seat off before I rode the bike.


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## Dave_Stohler (Jan 22, 2004)

I tried a Terry fly, and found that the edges of the cutout dug into my 'nether regions'. Pure sales [email protected], if you ask me.


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## Thumper (Mar 18, 2005)

Dave_Stohler said:


> I tried a Terry fly, and found that the edges of the cutout dug into my 'nether regions'. Pure sales [email protected], if you ask me.


Well DS, it may be pure sales [email protected], but it has bamboozled me for over 5000miles. I don't think cutouts are ideal for racers or posers though. I believe they favor more upright riders.

They've also fooled several of my fellow riders (male and female alike).


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

I've read pressure tests reviews of both types of saddles. Generally speaking the ones with a cut out allow for less pressure and better blood flow to the perineum area, but increase it along the sides. Which of the two types you prefer most is up to you as an individual.


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

Cutout along with the right width so your sitting on the sit bones. The new specialized saddles comes in 3 different widths. Its the only saddle i've had and i've had all the major players that works,great.


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## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

*Really curious about these tests.*

Like who, how, and why? As you and other posters have pointed out, saddle choice comes down to individuals' comfort, so it seems kind of overkill to actually measure blood flow to the perineum area or amount of pressure at various parts of a saddle. People will like what they like and about all that makes sense to me is recording the percentage of people love or hate a bunch of saddles and see if there are patterns as to which they like.

Fwiw, neither my wife nor I have been comfortable on saddles with cut-outs. She got pregnant on a bike tour which addresses, for our family, one of the concerns that prompted cut-outs.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

I've read them in several German road and MTB magazines. Most of the tests are performed in corporation with a university and people who research the subject. They also add a practical component with a pool of users who have several weeks I think to try a group of saddles.

General tendencies as to what most people like are quite apparent from these tests. Also, if you have specific pressure problems, you can make the selection of a possible suitable saddle with more accuracy compared to a random guess. I think everyone would agree that it's always an advantage to know what exactly is wrong when trying to correct a problem.

BTW, saddle manufacturers perform the same type of tests as well when developing saddles.


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## bikejr (Jul 30, 2004)

*...*

As this thread goes on it really drives home the point of how much saddles vary between people..

I.E. one person says the cutout doesn't matter, one says it feels like riding on rails, another says I would never ride without one....

Some like it tilted up, others down, others (myself included) basically level.


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## maximum15 (Feb 6, 2004)

*my two cents on this issue*

One of my bikes has a saddle with a cutout, the other doesn't. When I ride the bike with the cutout, I am only comfortable for rides more than 1 hour when I wear shorts with padded chamois. When I ride the bike without the cutout, the padded chamois short bunch up and create discomfort. So, without the cutout, I wear shorts without padded chamois and have no problems. Works for me, but as we have all come to realize, that doesn't mean it will work for everyone.


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## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

*As long as our government isn't paying for it!*

I Googled "bicycle seat test" and found an article about a test from Germany. I read until I got the part about attaching electrodes to his penis at which point I stopped reading and e-mailed the url to my favorite S&M website. I also came across an article citing two, separate tests proving that cyclists time trial faster with 80 degree seat tube angles. 

Whenever I read of obscure tests on what I see as trivial matters I ask the who, how and why questions. Often the answers point to somebody who benefits from specific results. In the case of bicycle seats, I think the most useful findings are that a lot more people like one seat than another and that people who liked seat "a" also liked seat "b" but hated seat "c".


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

This is beginning to sound like the rotational weight counts for two argument.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand ergonomics? If a person has a problem with pressure in the center don't get a saddle that causes a lot of pressure in the center. It doesn't necessarily mean that all saddles with a cut out will be okay, it just means that the ones which negatively effect blood flow in that area are most likely not suitable to your anatomy. It's just like frame sizing. A 58cm frame won't fit all individuals of the same height, but a large group of a given height will fit that specific size. This hasn't been discovered by random thought either. When something feels comfortable or fits, there's a quantifiable reason for it.

...if you want to talk about government waste why not ask yourself why you don't have a decent bike path network in the US, but instead choose to spend billions upon billions worth of kick backs to the oil industry that doesn't even need the money in the first place.


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## D-man (May 7, 2004)

*tape the rails, go for a couple rides...then.....*

i recently found a saddle that works for me: got a smokin' deal on an aireon...tried it for a couple weeks and now (2months later) i love it. BUT it took trying out 4 other saddles to get there. i just found a shop with a decent return policy, taped the rails before i installed a saddle, went for a couple 3-4 hour rides and decided from there... previous posters are right, a saddle is a personal thing, and i've ridden with and without cutouts, and it depends more on the 'overall' feel of the sadde and less on the cutout IMO...just keep riding and see what works.


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## sanmusa (Apr 7, 2005)

I bought a roadbike that came with a flat saddle (no nut cooler cutout). The saddle was very painful and I was getting off the saddle too often to relieve the pain. I switched it with the cutout saddle I had on my mountain bike and went for a ride. The road bike felt wonderfully comfortable and that saddle is still on the road bike now. The flat saddle was installed on the mountain bike where, amazingly, it is a nice saddle. The mountain bike still has the flat saddle now. A saddle may work on a bike but not on another, you just have to try it out.


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## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

*Less about ergonomics than about testing.*



divve said:


> . When something feels comfortable or fits, there's a quantifiable reason for it.
> 
> And a test that has a bunch of people ride on a bunch of saddles may or may not find the quantifiable reason. Look at all the ads for supplements and electrolyte drinks that quote test results showing percentage gains in performance that could lead one to believe that their product will shave minutes off your time for a 40k time trial. Did they invent tests that never happened or were the tests run in a way to produce certain results? I don't know. Did the they ride the Brooks saddles long enough for the cebaceous cyst on one riders a$$ to make a place for itself in the leather. I don't know. It just sounds to me that testing bicycle seats has great pseudo-science potential and is most likely paid for by somebody involved selling bicycle seats.
> 
> As for government waste. Stop pissing money away supporting big business and the military so we can spend it on preventative health care, education, feeding hungry people, bike paths, and a some frivolous, but neutral, studies.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

As mentioned earlier, there's a theoretical and a practical components to the tests. By correlating the results you can see what works and what doesn't. In my case it was pretty much spot on and I experienced the same results as the tests.

Any test involving something other than the exact sciences has pseudo-science potential. This doesn't mean we should throw it all out and ignore the obvious.

As for energy drink tests, the magazines I read never claim gains in performance. They basically just analyze the stuff in a lab to see what's actually in it versus what the label says. Then, have some doctor explain what the various ingredients do and what we may or may not need for various types of physical activities.


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