# GIANT denies warranty on obvious manufacturing defect for 2014 Defy Advanced 1



## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

*GIANT denies warranty claim Defy Advanced 1 frame*

I was replacing a shifter cable on my 2014 Giant Defy Advanced 1 (MSRP $3200) and flipped the bike over to see what was going on because the cable was stuck. Shockingly, I found a crack on the crank side coming out of the corner of the cable guide cutout. I purchased the bike December 2015 and it has ~5000 miles of riding on it (3600 in the last year).

Because there is absolutely no damage on the frame anywhere and the bike has never been in any accident I figured this would be a no brainer warranty claim and took the bike to my local bike store. Within no time, Giant's rep claimed I crashed the bike and offered me ~15% off of a new Giant bike.

I brought the frame to a local company that performs composites failure analysis. They said that the cable cut out created a stress riser in the corner resulting in a fatigue failure due most likely to micro porosity. They laughed at the idea that the damage was due to an accident. They also said they are sure Giant has seen this failure mode before on this design because the cutout was poorly designed from a stress perspective.

Bottom line: Giant's "Lifetime Warranty" is just marketing BS. Avoid on your next purchase.


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## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

Obiousely I will on me next purchase.


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## rideit (Feb 8, 2005)

If you took it somewhere for analysis, you are motivated enough to sue. I recommend that you do so, and keep us informed.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Looks like defect to me.

1. I'd look to sue in small claims court
2. then get a steel bike


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Now _that_ looks like a warranty!


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## deadleg (Jan 26, 2005)

Ask to speak with a manager. If they don't replace it, consider flaming them online. I had the opposite happen with Specialized, I rode a bike hard for 5 years, frame cracked and they gave me a new S-works frame! Way better than what I bought, still ride it


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Wow, I'm shocked they'd deny that. 

I'd ask the dealer you bought the bike from to push back on their warranty rep. There aren't any signs of impact there, and you'd have to work pretty hard to crash in a way that just hit that spot that is pretty well protected by the chainring, and nothing else. 

Did you buy the bike from an authorized Giant dealer?


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## izza (Jul 25, 2012)

Have you changed BB any all in the past? 

I’ve seen very similar cracks where a bearing press was tightened when not accurately centred on the press fit BB.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> Looks like defect to me.
> 
> 1. I'd look to sue in small claims court
> 2. then get a steel bike


And go back to external cables. 

That's a pretty big hole in the wrong place, right under the press-fit BB, and there's the stress riser tearing apart, sure enough.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

What kind of collision misses the chainrings and manages to just hit the weakest part of the downtube and forces the fibers to spring out? Keep pushing back, maybe ask to speak to the Reps supervisor?


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

izza said:


> Have you changed BB any all in the past?
> 
> I’ve seen very similar cracks where a bearing press was tightened when not accurately centred on the press fit BB.


And there we go again. 
It could be a manufacturing defect, but then, perhaps, it isn't. 

I think the best one can do is send a picture to Giant. They have massive experience in checking damaged frames. After all, they have massive experience building frames. They even build Trek frames. 

By looking at the picture, Giant will know immediately if it's manufacturing defect. Just like Trek, I suppose. Case closed.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

kiwisimon said:


> What kind of collision misses the chainrings and manages to just hit the weakest part of the downtube and forces the fibers to spring out? Keep pushing back, maybe ask to speak to the Reps supervisor?


A rock strike from underneath? Probably not, but not impossible.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

I guess it all depends on which individual is reviewing the warranty claim. You would want to escalate it with Giant. 

I have the Defy Advanced Pro 0 with DI2. I was travelling and when assembling my bike at the hotel, I could not get the battery out of the seat tube to reconnect it as it had slid up into the seat post. While trying to get it out, I launched it into the floor and it exploded. Gravity.... 

Giant warrantied it at 50% for the cost of the part, and covered the labor. I was honest, and it was clearly my fault. 

From Giants perspective, it's good will, and a small price to pay for brand loyalty. 

If you escalate and be courteous, you will hopefully get the result you want. 

What I cannot stress enough, do not threaten them with a law suit, the moment you do that, they will more than likely end conversations with you, and pass it off to their lawyers. This is an absolute last resort once all other avenues have been tried.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Lombard said:


> A rock strike from underneath? Probably not, but not impossible.


Why not? Not only is that possible, it happens to me quite often.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

kiwisimon said:


> What kind of collision misses the chainrings and manages to just hit the weakest part of the downtube and forces the fibers to spring out?





Lombard said:


> A rock strike from underneath? Probably not, but not impossible.


Yes there could be some "weird" scenarios where something could impact the BB and miss the chainring. 
However, it's blatantly clear in the photo that all the material is pushing outwards. Impacts don't look like that.

Undoubtedly a warranty. OP, contact 1 or 2 other companies that do frame repairs, send the photo and get their opinion. Take that and your other failure analysis and send them to Giant. Let them know you'll be filing a small claims case with all this evidence. They can either make good on their warranty or make their case in court. Court is going to cost them more than fixing your frame.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

9W9W said:


> Why not? Not only is that possible, *it happens to me quite often*.


on a road bike? under the BB? quite often? does the rock jump up and smack the frame or does the bike get airborne enough so the BB can come down on a 15cm edge of rock but clears your chainrings. On a road bike? Got any pics?


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

9W9W said:


> Why not? Not only is that possible, it happens to me quite often.


Rocks are constantly hitting the underside of our frames - every ride.... but with almost no force. For a rock to fly up and hit the frame with enough force to crack the frame, it'd have to shot from something... not kicked up by the front tire. 

The chainring ends up protecting the frame from landing on rocks, roots, sticks, etc. (think mtn bikes)... But, hitting a mini fin (rock formation) - big enough to hit the frame, that somehow made it past the front tire... yeah, not seeing it


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Unreal, not another one! Dam#, Paul H, I feel for you. Good thing you didn't keep riding that, or other cracks, from stressing too much at that junction, might have happened at other locations. As carbon becomes more prevalent, finally people will start realizing what "crack propagation" truly means. Countless hours/weeks argument over this inside a large aircraft manufacturer, my head hurts thinking about it.

I hope Giant steps up.....just like for the other poster I hope Trek steps up (only difference with the Trek poster was he never caught the beginning of the crack in the stay, which reached the point of a 'Cat Failure', which then took out other areas in the worst way possible).

Man, you all wonder why people---specifically those who either know and/or who have worked with carbon---still express hesitation when dealing with carbon frames. Yes, advances have been made, but nowhere near what needs to be done. You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Yep, no one ever saw failures in other frame materials ("crack-n-fails" or cannondale; raleigh "defectiums"). :rolleyes5:


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

"You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry."

I am sorry, but this is not true. I have seen steel and aluminum bikes with stress cracks that propagated from various locations. I have seen steel bikes with cracks starting at a water bottle mount even, though more often at a weld. I had a friend who went through three steel Viner frames (Columbus SL/SP tubing) in the early 80s, all of which broke at the rear dropout. 

Whenever you attempt to make an ultra-light bicycle frame you are risking the possibility of stress failure. It is possible to make steel, aluminum, ti and carbon frames that will not break - but they will be considerably heavier than the risky frames on the market and so will not sell as well.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

doesn't even have to be a 'manufacturing defect' it could be an engineering defect too. but you'd only know if you had it expertly analyzed. Trouble is where can you hire a true expert qualified to do such analysis? I only know of Luescher, on the other side of the World, and even then I as a consumer don't know how authentic his credentials are.

the bike makers are in the catbird seat. they supposedly have the experts and the game play on their side. They may also have a prejudice against all riders who file complaints, because sometimes the riders lie about it. We as non experts can never really know if the warranty is a marketing ploy or if it is real. And these things are too low dollar to be litigating over, unless someone gets seriously injured.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

BelgianHammer said:


> You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.


What a load of bull.
Try using the google. There's thousands of photos of cracked/broken Ti, Steel, & Aluminum bikes.


For any industry huh? 
You never heard of cracks in aluminum airplane structures? And now they're making airplanes from carbon fiber. ZOMG!


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

crit_boy said:


> Yep, no one ever saw failures in other frame materials ("crack-n-fails" or cannondale; raleigh "defectiums"). :rolleyes5:


LOL, yep, keep the RBR ad-dollars floweth strongest. That cannot be messed with:cryin:

You're comparing apples and oranges, and I'd like to think you smart enough to know the difference between different material junction points versus a singular material in-and-of-itself failing.

An even bigger  back atch ya (_though me thinks you playeth cat & nouse defender too much and thus know better_)


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

bradkay said:


> "You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry."
> 
> I am sorry, but this is not true. I have seen steel and aluminum bikes with stress cracks that propagated from various locations. I have seen steel bikes with cracks starting at a water bottle mount even, though more often at a weld. I had a friend who went through three steel Viner frames (Columbus SL/SP tubing) in the early 80s, all of which broke at the rear dropout.
> 
> Whenever you attempt to make an ultra-light bicycle frame you are risking the possibility of stress failure. It is possible to make steel, aluminum, ti and carbon frames that will not break - but they will be considerably heavier than the risky frames on the market and so will not sell as well.


Not 1-3 or 4 year old frames.

Couch it all how you might want it.

But it simply is not true.

This stuff is happening on basically new carbon lain material.

For other material. No. Unless you're talking 10 to 20 to 30 year old frames.


It's like Trump's little world here, only applied to bicycles. At least Donald paid out, though, lol.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

tlg said:


> What a load of bull.
> Try using the google. There's thousands of photos of cracked/broken Ti, Steel, & Aluminum bikes.
> 
> 
> ...


yes indeed. wow. My old riding buddy had a steel frame break under him JRA a few years ago. He's sworn on steel ever since and happily gone to carbon bikes. Though he rode steel since the 80s and no problems till that one break, lol. 

I also had a Klein alu failure due to engineering fault, which was super common back in the day.

the internets is awash in stories of various brands of Ti frames cracking. especially those cheap chinese ti frames like the Bikes Direct ones, but also Lynskeys I know of too. And yet I have a bit more confidence in my Lysnkey frame than my previous carbon frame - based on no real expertise I admit.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

BelgianHammer said:


> Man, you all wonder why people---specifically those who either know and/or who have worked with carbon---still express hesitation when dealing with carbon frames. Yes, advances have been made, but nowhere near what needs to be done. You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.



The irony is, I took all the gear off of my Giant and put it on my 20 y/o plus Kestrel frame (100% carbon) and am riding that while I figure this out. The frame is quite a bit heavier, but built like a tank!


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

BCSaltchucker said:


> doesn't even have to be a 'manufacturing defect' it could be an engineering defect too. but you'd only know if you had it expertly analyzed. Trouble is where can you hire a true expert qualified to do such analysis? I only know of Luescher, on the other side of the World, and even then I as a consumer don't know how authentic his credentials are.
> 
> the bike makers are in the catbird seat. they supposedly have the experts and the game play on their side. They may also have a prejudice against all riders who file complaints, because sometimes the riders lie about it. We as non experts can never really know if the warranty is a marketing ploy or if it is real. And these things are too low dollar to be litigating over, unless someone gets seriously injured.


I am a mechanical engineering and have personally worked numerous structural failure analysis investigations in the satellite industry. Some of them were composite failures. In those efforts I have worked with some of the top composite experts in the country. When I showed them the frame said it was an obvious design weakness couple with a manufacturing defect.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

tlg said:


> What a load of bull.
> Try using the google. There's thousands of photos of cracked/broken Ti, Steel, & Aluminum bikes.
> 
> 
> ...


how did I get called out for that? Want to edit?


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

BelgianHammer said:


> Not 1-3 or 4 year old frames.
> 
> Couch it all how you might want it.
> 
> ...


Wrong again... many of these were rather new frames. You failed to note my comment about my friend who went through THREE Viner frames in the early 80s... none of those bikes was more than two years old. The water bottle mount crack was on a three year old Land Shark (ultra thin steel tubing). 

thing is, you are making absolute statements - "this doesn't happen to new (name your alloy here) frames, but it does to carbon" - while we are saying that we have seen it on all types of frames, so there is no absolute.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Paul H said:


> I was replacing a shifter cable on my 2014 Giant Defy Advanced 1 (MSRP $3200) and flipped the bike over to see what was going on because the cable was stuck. Shockingly, I found a crack on the crank side coming out of the corner of the cable guide cutout. I purchased the bike December 2015 and it has ~5000 miles of riding on it (3600 in the last year).
> 
> 
> View attachment 322537


First thing, maybe take a better picture. I would advise you to remove the 2 cables and plastic BB insert, so you can inspect and show via pictures the damage better. Also gently wash the area to remove dirt without causing any further abrasion. 

The dirt or whatever looks like some serious underside abrasion, which is likely not helping you. That's not normal on road bikes, at least not on mine.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

kiwisimon said:


> how did I get called out for that? Want to edit?


Sorry about that. Fixed it.
For some reason when I hit reply I'm getting 3 multi quotes. RBR hamsters must be drinking.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Paul H said:


> The irony is, I took all the gear off of my Giant and put it on my 20 y/o plus Kestrel frame (100% carbon) and am riding that while I figure this out. The frame is quite a bit heavier, but built like a tank!


yes the Kestrels back then were if anything over engineered if compared with now. Good thing too. I really liked my EMS 200 sci but the BMC teammahine is three times a better ride. 

I agree too, it's a design and probably a fabricating error.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

BelgianHammer said:


> Unreal, not another one! Dam#, Paul H, I feel for you. Good thing you didn't keep riding that, or other cracks, from stressing too much at that junction, might have happened at other locations. As carbon becomes more prevalent, finally people will start realizing what "crack propagation" truly means. Countless hours/weeks argument over this inside a large aircraft manufacturer, my head hurts thinking about it.
> 
> I hope Giant steps up.....just like for the other poster I hope Trek steps up (only difference with the Trek poster was he never caught the beginning of the crack in the stay, which reached the point of a 'Cat Failure', which then took out other areas in the worst way possible).
> 
> Man, you all wonder why people---specifically those who either know and/or who have worked with carbon---still express hesitation when dealing with carbon frames. Yes, advances have been made, but nowhere near what needs to be done. *You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. * We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.


I just about spit a mouthful of coffee all over my keyboard when I read this. Where do you come up w/ this ****?


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

BTW: the joke "Crack 'n' Fail" has a definite truth to it. Cannondale is the only bicycle manufacturer required by the CPSC to place a sticker on their frames warning the consumer to regularly inspect the frame for cracks. This happened in the mid-90s, but I have seen that sticker on recent Cannondale bikes.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Z'mer said:


> First thing, maybe take a better picture. I would advise you to remove the 2 cables and plastic BB insert, so you can inspect and show via pictures the damage better. Also gently wash the area to remove dirt without causing any further abrasion.
> 
> The dirt or whatever looks like some *serious underside abrasion*, which is likely not helping you. That's not normal on road bikes, at least not on mine.


What? Looks to me like it's been ridden in the rain and not cleaned, and also over lubed but that's not abrasion.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

Paul H said:


> I am a mechanical engineering and have personally worked numerous structural failure analysis investigations in the satellite industry. Some of them were composite failures. In those efforts I have worked with some of the top composite experts in the country. When I showed them the frame said it was an obvious design weakness couple with a manufacturing defect.


I wish you all the best with your frame.

But ... you showed your frame to some of the top composite experts in the country and they said it was an "obvious" design weakness coupled with a manufacturing defect? 

I'm willing to believe you, but boy, some experts. 
Did you show them a picture? Did you show them the frame? What did they do with the frame? (and do you always have the frame with you?) Did they all say it was obviously a design weakness etc.? 

I would expect a real top expert to say: "OK man, I'll give you my opinion, but keep in mind that I don't know anything about racebikes."


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

Yep, no abrasion just dirt. I wiped it away from the failure area, should have done a better job.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

HFroller said:


> I wish you all the best with your frame.
> 
> But ... you showed your frame to some of the top composite experts in the country and they said it was an "obvious" design weakness coupled with a manufacturing defect?
> 
> ...


I brought them the frame. They said that they could perform non destructive testing (Thermography, ultrasound, and CT scan) but said it would be a waste of effort for a failure as obvious as this. They speculated that there were too many microvoids in the fiber coupled with the stress riser in the corner of the cutout. The cyclic loading due to pedaling then resulted in a fatigue failure. 


This was their opinion
1) Poor design creating high stress area
2) Manufacturing issue in the area of high stress

They have been expert witnesses (ironically for bike manufacturers) in personal injury cases. Mostly fork failures leading to the rider being impaled. That has made me reconsider my carbon fork.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

HFroller said:


> And there we go again.
> It could be a manufacturing defect, but then, perhaps, it isn't.
> 
> I think the best one can do is send a picture to Giant. They have massive experience in checking damaged frames. After all, they have massive experience building frames. They even build Trek frames.
> ...


The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame. They will go with the "user damage" first, and I suspect it's only in cases of clear manufacturing defect will they want to own up to it and replace the frame. And without cutting up a frame to analyze the inside of the tubes, how is the manufacturer is to determine if a frame failure is the result of a crash or manufacturing defect? It's totally conceivable that a manufacturing defect can lead to a bigger crash that will ultimately cause the rider to crash or make the frame to fail to the point such that the frame now looks to have sustained damage from user crashing. To analyze such failure, I think you'd need to cut up the frame and analyze it first. There is a carbon expert on Youtube called Luescher Teknik and he has many times over demonstrate to viewers the imperfections of carbon fiber manufacturing within the bicycle industry. There are plenty of wrinkles and voids within these tubes to cause as stress initiation points.

Yet, when a warranty case is presented by a consumer, the process involves the LBS taking a photo and sending it to the manufacturer, and based on this a decision is made whether it's a user's fault or manufacturer defect. What kind of analysis is that? Ideally, what should happen is that the frame should be cut up and analyzed, and then give the analysis. But this probably takes too much time and cost for the manufactuers to do, so they simply go with "user's fault" and hope that the user will throw his hands in the air and accept it as is.

well I know if it were me, and I'm absolutely convinced that I did not crash and cause the frame to fail, and the manufacturer denies it, I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court. It is not too hard to show a reasonable preponderance of evidence to the judge as to why a frame would fail. Otherwise, we're all at the mercy of some guy looking at our photos and depending on his quotas determines if our frame will get a warranty!


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

kiwisimon said:


> yes the Kestrels back then were if anything over engineered if compared with now. Good thing too. I really liked my EMS 200 sci but the BMC teammahine is three times a better ride.
> 
> I agree too, it's a design and probably a fabricating error.


The Kestrel was incredible in the 90's and it still is a fun bike, but the technology has moved on since it was built. Here is a photo of the Kestrel with modern hardware.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court. It is not too hard to show a reasonable *preponderance of evidence* to the judge as to why a frame would fail.


That is key. Civil court is not "beyond a reasonable doubt". You just need to convince a judge that there's a 51% chance you're correct.
If you can get a couple independent sources to say that it wasn't user damage, you're likely to win. The manufacturers claim is going to be biased.
Small claims costs around $50-$75 and a day off work. You don't have much to lose.



> I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court.


I'm not sure if they're who you'd sue, or Giant. Giant is the one making the warranty. I don't know if the LBS has liability.
I would think suing Giant would be a better option. They're going to incur a lot of expense flying someone in to argue the case. Pressuring them to settle.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Paul H said:


> I brought them the frame. They said that they could perform non destructive testing (Thermography, ultrasound, and CT scan) but said it would be a waste of effort for a failure as obvious as this. They speculated that there were too many microvoids in the fiber coupled with the stress riser in the corner of the cutout. The cyclic loading due to pedaling then resulted in a fatigue failure.
> 
> 
> This was their opinion
> ...


I'll believe your experts. Luescher Teknik (on youtube) is a bicycle expert himself and has said and shown similar things about voids and stress initiators (wrinkles) many many times when he cut up carbon frames.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Paul H said:


> I am a mechanical engineering and have personally worked numerous structural failure analysis investigations in the satellite industry. Some of them were composite failures. In those efforts I have worked with some of the top composite experts in the country. When I showed them the frame said it was an obvious design weakness couple with a manufacturing defect.


well then have them sign an affidavit saying so, listing their credentials

and hey I 100% sympathize with you, based on what limited info I have. I'd feel kinda powerless as a consumer on this issue.

only thing else I'd suggest is exhaust all reasonable avenues for a solution before engaging in an online feedback rampage. It could just be some middle-level F-up and the MFR might still be coaxed to a reasonable solution if treated with respect, patience and reason.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

aclinjury said:


> The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame. They will go with the "user damage" first, and I suspect it's only in cases of clear manufacturing defect will they want to own up to it and replace the frame. And without cutting up a frame to analyze the inside of the tubes, how is the manufacturer is to determine if a frame failure is the result of a crash or manufacturing defect? It's totally conceivable that a manufacturing defect can lead to a bigger crash that will ultimately cause the rider to crash or make the frame to fail to the point such that the frame now looks to have sustained damage from user crashing. To analyze such failure, I think you'd need to cut up the frame and analyze it first. There is a carbon expert on Youtube called Luescher Teknik and he has many times over demonstrate to viewers the imperfections of carbon fiber manufacturing within the bicycle industry. There are plenty of wrinkles and voids within these tubes to cause as stress initiation points.
> 
> Yet, when a warranty case is presented by a consumer, the process involves the LBS taking a photo and sending it to the manufacturer, and based on this a decision is made whether it's a user's fault or manufacturer defect. What kind of analysis is that? Ideally, what should happen is that the frame should be cut up and analyzed, and then give the analysis. But this probably takes too much time and cost for the manufacturer's to do, so they simply go with "user's fault" and hope that the user will throw his hands in the air and accept it as is.
> 
> well I know if it were me, and I'm absolutely convinced that I did not crash and cause the frame to fail, and the manufacturer denies it, I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court. It is not too hard to show a reasonable preponderance of evidence to the judge as to why a frame would fail. Otherwise, we're all at the mercy of some guy looking at our photos and depending on his quotas determines if our frame will get a warranty!



I think that is what made me so angry. They were saying I crashed the bike, when I didn't, based on a photo of a tiny crack. 

In the end, I will probably get the frame repaired and move on. I have a couple of quotes of $200 for the repair. 

Giant still has the frame, I guess when I told the LBS that I had some experts look a the frame and they laughed at their accident claim they decided to look at it too. So, there is a chance they will reverse themselves, but I am not hopeful. They no longer make the frame so even if they warranty it, it will be expensive because they only make disc brake frames in the defy lineup. 

I am thinking that their first step is to say it is the owner fault regardless of what happened. If the owner accepts it then they just saved a warranty claim, if not, they go to the next step.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Paul H said:


> Giant still has the frame, I guess when I told the LBS that I had some experts look a the frame and they laughed at their accident claim they decided to look at it too. So, there is a chance they will reverse themselves, but I am not hopeful. They no longer make the frame so even if they warranty it, it will be expensive because they only make disc brake frames in the defy lineup.


Meh. They have options. They probably have replacement frames on hand. Or they could repair it. 

On a similar note, a friend of mine had some quite old Zipp wheels. Aluminum rim/carbon style. He cracked a hub. When he went to get a new hub, he found out that hub had a known issue. And it wasn't made anymore, nor was there any hub/spoke combination available. They gave him a brand new $3000 NSW full carbon wheelset, shipped free. THAT is customer service.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

"The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame."

Actually, it is in the manufacturer's interest to warrant the frame so as to avoid a public relations nightmare. In general, most manufacturers bend over backwards to make the customer happy, as the cost of a new frame is minimal compared to the cost of bad publicity.

In the five years I ran the warranty department at Klein (mid-90s) we were taken to small claims court once. In those days, we required any warranty claim to be shipped to us for our engineers to inspect. This was an obviously crashed mountain bike (downtube and head tube both crumpled before the head tube tore off) but the customer sued us in state court (NH, IIRC) under a law that requires a product to be "suitable for the use for which it is sold". We sent the local sales rep to court, armed with the engineer's inspection report. The judge ruled in our favor as the plaintiff admitted that he had "ridden the bike hard for four or five years" before it broke. The judges decision indicated that he felt that the evidence showed that the bike was suitable for the use for which it had been sold.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

BCSaltchucker said:


> well then have them sign an affidavit saying so, listing their credentials
> 
> and hey I 100% sympathize with you, based on what limited info I have. I'd feel kinda powerless as a consumer on this issue.
> 
> only thing else I'd suggest is exhaust all reasonable avenues for a solution before engaging in an online feedback rampage. It could just be some middle-level F-up and the MFR might still be coaxed to a reasonable solution if treated with respect, patience and reason.


I agree, they may do the right thing eventually. However, being basically called a liar by Giant is not the best way to treat your customer. 

Also, per Giant's policy, I am not able to talk directly to Giant, just the LBS. Which makes this interaction more frustrating. The LBS is clueless about failure mechanics and is just relaying info from Giant.

I think this experience is valuable to know about when you are looking at a new Giant at your LBS and they are touting the lifetime warranty on the frame and fork. I remember when I bought the bike it was the clincher for me.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

bradkay said:


> "The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame."
> 
> Actually, it is in the manufacturer's interest to warrant the frame so as to avoid a public relations nightmare. In general, most manufacturers bend over backwards to make the customer happy, as the cost of a new frame is minimal compared to the cost of bad publicity.
> 
> In the five years I ran the warranty department at Klein (mid-90s) we were taken to small claims court once. In those days, we required any warranty claim to be shipped to us for our engineers to inspect. This was an obviously crashed mountain bike (downtube and head tube both crumpled before the head tube tore off) but the customer sued us in state court (NH, IIRC) under a law that requires a product to be "suitable for the use for which it is sold". We sent the local sales rep to court, armed with the engineer's inspection report. The judge ruled in our favor as the plaintiff admitted that he had "ridden the bike hard for four or five years" before it broke. The judges decision indicated that he felt that the evidence showed that the bike was suitable for the use for which it had been sold.


What happened to Klein? Do they still exist, they made some really nice frames.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Paul H said:


> What happened to Klein? Do they still exist, they made some really nice frames.


Trek bought them. Many years ago. Took their technology then eliminated the brand.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Paul H said:


> What happened to Klein? Do they still exist, they made some really nice frames.


We were purchased by Trek in 1995 (I kept my job until the Waterloo HQ took it over in 1998). Gary had mortgaged the company to the hilt in the early 90s in order to work with Alcoa to come up with a new aluminum alloy for the frames (we called it "Gradient" tubing, Trek called it "ZR9000") but then had tooling issues working with the new tubing. Those issues caused us to be months late in deliveries. However, because we had displayed the prototypes at the bike shows there had been a tremendous number of orders placed for the bikes. When the bikes were months late, we lost half of our dealers. The banks were demanding their money and we didn't have it. 

Trek closed the Chehalis plant in 2000, moving the production equipment to Waterloo. They continued production of Klein bikes until 2007 or 8, IIRC - but the writing was on the wall for expensive aluminum racing bikes. The cost of manufacture was much greater than carbon and the market was demanding carbon, so the brand died off. The name still appears on the side of the boxes Trek bikes are shipped in, along with all the other brands that Trek owns.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Paul H said:


> I think that is what made me so angry. They were saying I crashed the bike, when I didn't, based on a photo of a tiny crack.
> 
> In the end, I will probably get the frame repaired and move on. I have a couple of quotes of $200 for the repair.
> 
> ...


well the good news is that bottom bracket repair is fairly easy, they just lay more carbon layers on it, and $200 is a very reasonable price vs other options for you. I'd bite the bullet at $200


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tlg said:


> That is key. Civil court is not "beyond a reasonable doubt". You just need to convince a judge that there's a 51% chance you're correct.
> If you can get a couple independent sources to say that it wasn't user damage, you're likely to win. The manufacturers claim is going to be biased.
> Small claims costs around $50-$75 and a day off work. You don't have much to lose.
> 
> ...


In a big metro, you can just file a small claims online. For expert evidence, I'd get a local carbon repair shop to write up an affidavit what they think caused the damage, probably need to pay them some money for this, and based on that go from there to see if you'd stand a chance in court. 

I think you could sue Giant too if Giant is sold in the same county where the Court has jurisdiction. It's gonna cost a day's worth of work (maybe good time to use a floating vacation), some efiling fee, and some expert evaluation fee. I know if it where me, and I'm convinced it's not my fault, and if I can get a local carbon repair shop to evaluate and determine it's not my fault in an affidavit, then I'd take it to small claims and let the judge decide

on a related note, i've had to use a local carbon repair shop to write me an affidavit saying that my damaged (not visibly broken) carbon frame, that was involved in an accident with a car, couldn't be safely repaired, and that damage may already happened even if not visible to the eyes, and thus this would put the frame at risk of failing earlier than otherwise. This affidavit alone got the insurance co. of the driver to pay for a new bike (just over 10k), when initially the insurance co. suggested that they would pay for me to repair it (and no way I' was going to want to accept my 10k bike being repaired!). I also reckon for a car insurance co., 10k is chump change and they are not going to think too hard especially if you can get some expert evidence to support your claim. It's really a matter of "how hard do you want to fight it"


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

bradkay said:


> We were purchased by Trek in 1995 (I kept my job until the Waterloo HQ took it over in 1998). Gary had mortgaged the company to the hilt in the early 90s in order to work with Alcoa to come up with a new aluminum alloy for the frames (we called it "Gradient" tubing, Trek called it "ZR9000") but then had tooling issues working with the new tubing. Those issues caused us to be months late in deliveries. However, because we had displayed the prototypes at the bike shows there had been a tremendous number of orders placed for the bikes. When the bikes were months late, we lost half of our dealers. The banks were demanding their money and we didn't have it.
> 
> Trek closed the Chehalis plant in 2000, moving the production equipment to Waterloo. They continued production of Klein bikes until 2007 or 8, IIRC - but the writing was on the wall for expensive aluminum racing bikes. The cost of manufacture was much greater than carbon and the market was demanding carbon, so the brand died off. The name still appears on the side of the boxes Trek bikes are shipped in, along with all the other brands that Trek owns.



That sucks. A riding buddy of mine had one and he loved it.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> What? Looks to me like it's been ridden in the rain and not cleaned, and also over lubed but that's not abrasion.


I agree that it doesn't look like abrasion to me, but Z'mer is right to some extent. Don't give them any reason the "think" you could have crashed the bike. Thoroughly clean it and give the impression that you meticulously maintain your bike and will not tolerate them suggesting that you crashed it. 

Crossing my fingers now, but I've had two Trek MTB frames warrantied. It was almost no questions asked warranty. Maybe my bike shop does a better job of explaining to the manufacturer that the crack was not my fault. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe Trek does a better job honoring their warranty. Who knows.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

I think Trek is a better manufacturer and they also provide better service to their customers. I am sure their not perfect, but I have owned a bunch of trek bikes over the years including a light postal frame bike and I never had an issue, period.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

jspharmd said:


> I agree that it doesn't look like abrasion to me, but Z'mer is right to some extent. Don't give them any reason the "think" you could have crashed the bike. Thoroughly clean it and give the impression that you meticulously maintain your bike and will not tolerate them suggesting that you crashed it.
> 
> Crossing my fingers now, but I've had two Trek MTB frames warrantied. It was almost no questions asked warranty. Maybe my bike shop does a better job of explaining to the manufacturer that the crack was not my fault. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe Trek does a better job honoring their warranty. Who knows.


No one ever starts threads when their warranty is covered and the process is painless, do they?


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

cxwrench said:


> No one ever starts threads when their warranty is covered and the process is painless, do they?



If it ever happens to me, I will be the first!

:thumbsup:


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> No one ever starts threads when their warranty is covered and the process is painless, do they?


more laughable sniping from cxw

i've read countless posts on here of folks reporting successful warranty claims. I've mentioned the one I did dozen times on here (Klein). And there is still the significant inconvenience/delay/hit to confidence in the bike the owner suffers even if they achieve a no cost replacement.

however I do agree that folks need to be respectful and patient with manufacturers, giving them a fair chance to do the right thing before posting negativity on the net about it


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> I just about spit a mouthful of coffee all over my keyboard when I read this. Where do you come up w/ this ****?


No kidding, this guy takes the cake. I have two full carbon mountain bikes and I have gone down dozens of times, I’ve torn my meniscus but never broke a frame.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

jaggrin said:


> No kidding, this guy takes the cake. I have two full carbon mountain bikes and I have gone down dozens of times, I’ve torn my meniscus but never broke a frame.


I have an '89 Kestrel MXZ and once I t-boned a tree stump so hard that the rear derailleur cable popped out of the frame guides. That's right - the frame (probably the most overbuilt carbon mountain bike ever) flexed so much in the impact that the cable popped out of the guides. No bent fork, no bent wheel, no crumpled downtube/headtube (which certainly would have happened with a steel or aluminum frame with that hard of an impact) - all I had to do was get out a 5mm allen wrench and re-adjust the derailleur. 

Funny - there is a strain of sativa heavy cannabis great for rides called "Allen Wrench". I have stopped for several "headset adjustments" using that...


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

9W9W said:


> Why not? Not only is that possible, it happens to me quite often.


The question here is, do you think a carbon frame should be able to take a pebble strike without cracking.

And if yes to the above, should a bike frame maker cover this under warranty?


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

Paul H said:


> I agree, they may do the right thing eventually.


Well, I hope for you they will do that, but I'm not certain. These stories about denied warranty claims - be it by Trek or Giant - are amazing. 

Manufacturers simply looking at a picture and deciding that the damage is caused by user error or an accident. No further analysis necessary. 

Giant, one of the biggest, most experienced builders of carbon frames cannot properly design a carbon frame. (This is actually the most amazing thing I learned.)

Manufacturers claim user error or an accident when it's perfectly clear for experts that it's obviously not only a manufacturing but also a design flaw. A stupid commercial move if I've ever seen one. 

Imagine the owner going to court and winning (a certainty, given the testimony of the carbon experts). In the age of Facebook, forums and the internet the whole cycling community will know the same day that a) Giant cannot properly design a frame; b) Giant cannot properly manufacture a frame: c) the Giant warranty is bogus! 

Manufacturers of racebikes seem to live on another planet.

By the way BelgianHammer is wrong. One of my friends rides an aluminum Allez, and after 3 yrs - not more - the chainstay on the side of the derailleur broke, a clear break right where the weld next to the derailleur is (warranty period expired, bad luck for him).


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

bradkay said:


> I have an '89 Kestrel MXZ and once I t-boned a tree stump so hard that the rear derailleur cable popped out of the frame guides. That's right - the frame (probably the most overbuilt carbon mountain bike ever) flexed so much in the impact that the cable popped out of the guides. No bent fork, no bent wheel, no crumpled downtube/headtube (which certainly would have happened with a steel or aluminum frame with that hard of an impact) - all I had to do was get out a 5mm allen wrench and re-adjust the derailleur.
> 
> Funny - there is a strain of sativa heavy cannabis great for rides called "Allen Wrench". I have stopped for several "headset adjustments" using that...


That reminds me, I was hit head on by a car when I was riding the Kestrel in 1998. It broke the fork but the frame was fine. After healing up, I put a new fork (see the clear finish carbon fork) and headset in it and rode if for another 10k miles. Just rebuilt it using the components from the cracked Giant frame and is still working. Kestrel was not messing around with their designs.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

HFroller said:


> Well, I hope for you they will do that, but I'm not certain. These stories about denied warranty claims - be it by Trek or Giant - are amazing.
> 
> Manufacturers simply looking at a picture and deciding that the damage is caused by user error or an accident. No further analysis necessary.
> 
> ...


I am planning on a repair and avoiding Giant in the future. My wife has a 2014 Giant Defy Advanced SL-1 also. I really liked the frame, but I am done with them for our bikes. 

I will probably just go with Canyon for our next bikes and expect no warranty on the frame. Canyon is the only manufacturer that does 100% xray inspection on their forks during assembly. The claim they reject between 0.5 -1%.

https://www.bikebiz.com/retail/why-isnt-the-bike-industry-scanning-composites-for-flaws

If a fork fails you are forked!


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

Paul H said:


> I will probably just go with Canyon for our next bikes


I don't know where you live, but in Europe the Canyon warranty period is 6 yrs (with the usual conditions, though).


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

HFroller said:


> I don't know where you live, but in Europe the Canyon warranty period is 6 yrs (with the usual conditions, though).


Giant claims lifetime, I am not counting on either company living up to their claims. However, the Canyon bike is cheaper so the broken frame is already priced in!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> more laughable sniping from cxw
> 
> i've read countless posts on here of folks reporting successful warranty claims. I've mentioned the one I did dozen times on here (Klein). And there is still the significant inconvenience/delay/hit to confidence in the bike the owner suffers even if they achieve a no cost replacement.
> 
> however I do agree that folks need to be respectful and patient with manufacturers, giving them a fair chance to do the right thing before posting negativity on the net about it


'Laughable sniping'? WTF? Do yourself a favor and put me on your ignore list, then you won't have to worry about getting butthurt over my posts.


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## itsnotmyparty (Apr 21, 2018)

cxwrench said:


> 'Laughable sniping'? WTF? Do yourself a favor and put me on your ignore list, then you won't have to worry about getting butthurt over my posts.


Most of the people on this forum need their comfort puppies, coloring books, play dough and safe spaces to make it through the day let alone s some dialogue.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

BelgianHammer said:


> Unreal, not another one! Dam#, Paul H, I feel for you. Good thing you didn't keep riding that, or other cracks, from stressing too much at that junction, might have happened at other locations. As carbon becomes more prevalent, finally people will start realizing what "crack propagation" truly means. Countless hours/weeks argument over this inside a large aircraft manufacturer, my head hurts thinking about it.
> 
> I hope Giant steps up.....just like for the other poster I hope Trek steps up (only difference with the Trek poster was he never caught the beginning of the crack in the stay, which reached the point of a 'Cat Failure', which then took out other areas in the worst way possible).
> 
> Man, you all wonder why people---specifically those who either know and/or who have worked with carbon---still express hesitation when dealing with carbon frames. Yes, advances have been made, but nowhere near what needs to be done. You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.


Your observations to not stand up to reality. Many of us have had high end aluminum mountain bike frames crack/fail in various places. The primary cause was the same as it is with carbon frames. We all want bikes that weigh in below current minimums.

I've built and sold many high performance rudders, centerboards, mast spreaders, tillers, mast steps and vang levers from both carbon and carbon / kevlar hybrids and can tell you that we were involved in doing the same thing. We continued to build ever lighter iterations until we began seeing failures and we'd either redesign or back off a couple of generations. 

There are millions of cabon bike frames out there and the failure rate is not excessive by any standard. These frame manufacturers that do not honor warrantees for legitimate design and/or manufacturing problems are crapping in their own nest.

I've been on carbon frames for at least 15 years without a single failure and can't recall any of my friends having any issues related to carbon frames.


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## rideit (Feb 8, 2005)

BelgianHammer said:


> You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.


Anyone remember Clark*Kent? Manitou Aluminum?


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Your observations to not stand up to reality. Many of us have had high end aluminum mountain bike frames crack/fail in various places. The primary cause was the same as it is with carbon frames. We all want bikes that weigh in below current minimums.
> 
> I've built and sold many high performance rudders, centerboards, mast spreaders, tillers, mast steps and vang levers from both carbon and carbon / kevlar hybrids and can tell you that we were involved in doing the same thing. We continued to build ever lighter iterations until we began seeing failures and we'd either redesign or back off a couple of generations.
> 
> ...


Yes!

For anyone skeptical about the integrity of carbon frames, just google Santa Cruz carbon frame test videos. The first one I viewed was about 8 yrs ago and they compared carbon and aluminum frames using everything from calibrated instruments to walking frame against concrete structure. The strength of carbon is amazing.

Sorry to hear about this bad customer service from Giant.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

BacDoc said:


> Yes!
> 
> For anyone skeptical about the integrity of carbon frames, just google Santa Cruz carbon frame test videos. The first one I viewed was about 8 yrs ago and they compared carbon and aluminum frames using everything from calibrated instruments to walking frame against concrete structure. The strength of carbon is amazing.
> 
> Sorry to hear about this bad customer service from Giant.


and that infamous Santa Cruz test is a little misleading. Carbon fiber of that test frame was compromised way before it eventually failed catastrophically. But looking from the outside from a distance, one wouldn't notice it. Put it under xray and ultrasound scan probably would have revealed a boatload of fiber fraying, stress riser points, and voids between the layers. That test had a lot of bro science and made for a good selling point for Santa Cruz at the time, who was the first to come out with carbon mtb frame.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> and that infamous Santa Cruz test is a little misleading. Carbon fiber of that test frame was compromised way before it eventually failed catastrophically. But looking from the outside from a distance, one wouldn't notice it. Put it under xray and ultrasound scan probably would have revealed a boatload of fiber fraying, stress riser points, and voids between the layers. That test had a lot of bro science and made for a good selling point for Santa Cruz at the time, who was the f*irst to come out with carbon mtb frame.*


Uhhhhmmmmm...


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> and that infamous Santa Cruz test is a little misleading. Carbon fiber of that test frame was compromised way before it eventually failed catastrophically. But looking from the outside from a distance, one wouldn't notice it. Put it under xray and ultrasound scan probably would have revealed a boatload of fiber fraying, stress riser points, and voids between the layers. That test had a lot of bro science and made for a good selling point for Santa Cruz at the time, who was the first to come out with carbon mtb frame.


Nothing like throwing some baseless, unsubstantiated dribble out there.


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## rideit (Feb 8, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> Uhhhhmmmmm...


Coughkestrelcough


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Paul H said:


> The Kestrel was incredible in the 90's and it still is a fun bike, but the technology has moved on since it was built. Here is a photo of the Kestrel with modern hardware.


Sure hope that's not a carbon steerer.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

jaggrin said:


> Nothing like throwing some baseless, unsubstantiated dribble out there.


baseless? it was thoroughly debated on mtbr back in those days when they did this test. I'm not about to debate something that long ago. And you'd be a fool to ride such a frame even if it has not reached catastrophic failure, right?


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

BelgianHammer said:


> Unreal, not another one! Dam#, Paul H, I feel for you. Good thing you didn't keep riding that, or other cracks, from stressing too much at that junction, might have happened at other locations. As carbon becomes more prevalent, finally people will start realizing what "crack propagation" truly means. Countless hours/weeks argument over this inside a large aircraft manufacturer, my head hurts thinking about it.
> 
> I hope Giant steps up.....just like for the other poster I hope Trek steps up (only difference with the Trek poster was he never caught the beginning of the crack in the stay, which reached the point of a 'Cat Failure', which then took out other areas in the worst way possible).
> 
> Man, you all wonder why people---specifically those who either know and/or who have worked with carbon---still express hesitation when dealing with carbon frames. Yes, advances have been made, but nowhere near what needs to be done. You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.


Here in the Seattle area, I've sold a lot of bikes to Boeing engineers who are quite familiar with carbon. Most recently about a week ago. Guy was recently retired, worked with carbon every day until he retired, and was only interested in a carbon bike. 

I'm only at a little under a decade working in the bike industry, but my experience is exactly the opposite of what you're saying here. Typically the engineers I talk to who work with it are familiar with the benefits of the material and aren't scared off by the BS they read from people who aren't familiar with it.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

masont said:


> Here in the Seattle area, I've sold a lot of bikes to Boeing engineers who are quite familiar with carbon. Most recently about a week ago. Guy was recently retired, worked with carbon every day until he retired, and was only interested in a carbon bike.
> 
> I'm only at a little under a decade working in the bike industry, but my experience is exactly the opposite of what you're saying here. Typically the engineers I talk to who work with it are familiar with the benefits of the material and aren't scared off by the BS they read from people who aren't familiar with it.


MasonT,

First, and I have said this is many other threads---carbon will, in some form, meet and possibly surpass every other material. That said, it still is not there yet.

Also, there is a whale load of difference between someone who "works" in the carbon industry (anywhere) and someone who is actually involved in the design, stress-testing and implementation of that carbon. Over 99% of the workers at Boeing have little idea of the mechanics behind carbon. Yes, they work "in" the industry, but that is it.

It might interest you to know of the number of places inside various aircraft (of both Boeing and Airbus and even smaller manufacturers) that carbon has been pulled back, aluminum again back where it was, and carbon redeployed to different locations, is way more than someone like you could possibly know. It doesn't make it bad, or nefarious, just a fact.

BTW, for several years, and even keep/kept a place there, I was/am Bellevue-located with most of my friends, past & present, still located there. Some still doing what they do, all mostly now involved with the Dreamliner, others pleasantly retired & enjoying the a##-kicking that BA stock has produced the past 18 months & what that means for retirement plans.

There is no BS here, only what you think you know, and what you 'actually' don't know. For the public, that is how things usually have to go. Same goes for bicycle shop owners. But it is not so nice when people, literally hundreds and more arguably, according to what is/are appearing, where thousands of owners with new and/or slightly old (1-3 yrs) are still seeing cracks in carbon where none should be occurring at all. 30 times that amount are NOT seeing that problem, or they don't have the ability (to x-ray look at what carbon actually is doing). Your livelihood is affected possibly, I understand, but in reality it won't be. The grand experiment that is the American and worldwide public testing ground can and never will change regarding carbon and/or anything else. It's the only thing driving us (human race) and change forward.

Carbon will, WILL, get there one day. It's just not totally there yet.


Best of luck to you and your business. You should get involved in BA's internal program of 'approved' discounts, cycling club, and "executive" program. I'm sure you would have mentioned it already if you were.


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## Bike N Gear (Jan 30, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame. They will go with the "user damage" first, and I suspect it's only in cases of clear manufacturing defect will they want to own up to it and replace the frame. And without cutting up a frame to analyze the inside of the tubes, how is the manufacturer is to determine if a frame failure is the result of a crash or manufacturing defect? It's totally conceivable that a manufacturing defect can lead to a bigger crash that will ultimately cause the rider to crash or make the frame to fail to the point such that the frame now looks to have sustained damage from user crashing. To analyze such failure, I think you'd need to cut up the frame and analyze it first. There is a carbon expert on Youtube called Luescher Teknik and he has many times over demonstrate to viewers the imperfections of carbon fiber manufacturing within the bicycle industry. There are plenty of wrinkles and voids within these tubes to cause as stress initiation points.
> 
> Yet, when a warranty case is presented by a consumer, the process involves the LBS taking a photo and sending it to the manufacturer, and based on this a decision is made whether it's a user's fault or manufacturer defect. What kind of analysis is that? Ideally, what should happen is that the frame should be cut up and analyzed, and then give the analysis. But this probably takes too much time and cost for the manufactuers to do, so they simply go with "user's fault" and hope that the user will throw his hands in the air and accept it as is.
> 
> well I know if it were me, and I'm absolutely convinced that I did not crash and cause the frame to fail, and the manufacturer denies it, I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court. It is not too hard to show a reasonable preponderance of evidence to the judge as to why a frame would fail. Otherwise, we're all at the mercy of some guy looking at our photos and depending on his quotas determines if our frame will get a warranty!


Your going to sue your LBS over this? Do you realize how much uncompensated warranty work the average lbs does? You want the lbs to be on your side and go to bat for you in a warranty claim. Suing the only one on your side would probably not be the best plan of action. Not many deep pockets at your lbs.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

OldZaskar said:


> For a rock to fly up and hit the frame with enough force to crack the frame, it'd have to shot from something... not kicked up by the front tire.


Why do you gun-grabbers have to sensationalize every little thing that has to do with someone or something getting accidentally shot?


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

PJay said:


> Why do you gun-grabbers have to sensationalize every little thing that has to do with someone or something getting accidentally shot?


I really do hope you're trying to be funny... and just aren't good at it.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

OldZaskar said:


> I really do hope you're trying to be funny... and just aren't good at it.


:lol: :7:


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## itsnotmyparty (Apr 21, 2018)

Bike N Gear said:


> Your going to sue your LBS over this? Do you realize how much uncompensated warranty work the average lbs does? You want the lbs to be on your side and go to bat for you in a warranty claim. Suing the only one on your side would probably not be the best plan of action. Not many deep pockets at your lbs.


dude, this tool blatheres on and on endlessly. Somebody should sue him for taking up space in cyber world.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

BacDoc said:


> Yes!
> 
> For anyone skeptical about the integrity of carbon frames, just google Santa Cruz carbon frame test videos. The first one I viewed was about 8 yrs ago and they compared carbon and aluminum frames using everything from calibrated instruments to walking frame against concrete structure. The strength of carbon is amazing.
> 
> Sorry to hear about this bad customer service from Giant.


My next bike will still be carbon, but I don't believe any of the warranty crap and I want the fork to be CT scanned for defects. Fork is the only part that scares me when it is carbon. When to fork fails, you are going down.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

GKSki said:


> Sure hope that's not a carbon steerer.


Aluminum


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

Bike N Gear said:


> Your going to sue your LBS over this? Do you realize how much uncompensated warranty work the average lbs does? You want the lbs to be on your side and go to bat for you in a warranty claim. Suing the only one on your side would probably not be the best plan of action. Not many deep pockets at your lbs.


I am not going to sue anyone even the manufacturer who is really the party with the liability. I am going to whine about it here (done), then repair the frame at my expense for about $200, and ride is like it never happened. 

It is not worth it to me to figure out how to serve Giant Bicycles, take a day off of work for court, and then figure out how to collect from them assuming I win a judgement. The day off will be more expensive than the repair.

Once it is repaired, I may even upgrade the components when I rebuild it. That way I will have a crap weather bike.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I hope the OP will post photos of the repaired frame, and his experience with the repair company. Interesting thread.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

BelgianHammer said:


> MasonT,
> 
> First, and I have said this is many other threads---carbon will, in some form, meet and possibly surpass every other material. That said, it still is not there yet.
> 
> ...


I assume that aluminum and steel bikes "will get there someday"? We will know because there will no longer be any fatigue failures?

"Getting there" obviously has a different meaning to you. I've never considered that "getting there" was defined by elimination of all failures. If my purchases were limited by such criteria I'd be homeless, without transportation, and naked. Fortunately, the real world uses a different metric.

Your view suggests that you may be an engineer hobbled by _paralysis by analysis_?


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

Peter P. said:


> I hope the OP will post photos of the repaired frame, and his experience with the repair company. Interesting thread.


 Will do.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*



itsnotmyparty said:


> dude, this tool blatheres on and on endlessly. Somebody should sue him for taking up space in cyber world.


Don't do this again when you are back from your posting vacation


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

*Update*

After having the frame for 10 days, Giant is now saying that indeed the frame was not crashed or abused and they will honor the warranty. 

Funny thing though, when I first brought it in I explained the bike was a gift and I did not have any paperwork. But it was registered immediately after receipt on their website. It seems, that now this means no warranty after all. Which is fine if that is their policy, but why not say it up front before wasting all of my time. 

I wish they had just said that up front without the "it was crashed" excuse. They are also being super slow to return the frame. When all is said and done, they will have wasted ~3 weeks of my time and effort driving to and from their local dealer (which is not so local).

I am going to get the frame repaired and purchase a Canyon in the near future. I just don't think I want to ride anything made by Giant anymore.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Paul H said:


> After having the frame for 10 days, Giant is now saying that indeed the frame was not crashed or abused and they will honor the warranty.
> 
> Funny thing though, when I first brought it in I explained the bike was a gift and I did not have any paperwork. But it was registered immediately after receipt on their website. It seems, that now this means no warranty after all. Which is fine if that is their policy, but why not say it up front before wasting all of my time.
> 
> ...


wait.....




















what?


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

OK, so it "would've" been a valid warranty claim but they won't honor it since you're not the original purchaser? 
If that's the case, you're right, they could've let you known up front.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

upstateSC-rider said:


> OK, so it "would've" been a valid warranty claim but they won't honor it since you're not the original purchaser?
> If that's the case, you're right, they could've let you known up front.



Yup, they said if I don't have the receipt, no warranty.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

OP


Paul H said:


> I was replacing a shifter cable on my 2014 Giant Defy Advanced 1 *I purchased* the bike December 2015 and it has ~5000 miles of riding on it (3600 in the last year).





> Funny thing though, when I first brought it in *I explained the bike was a gift and I did not have any paperwork.* But it was registered immediately after receipt on their website.



So did you purchase the frame or did someone else? 

That's normal but still, why the hell didn't they say that before being dicks about the frame? 

I couldn't find the receipts for my 4 year old bike gear either but a credit card payment is still proof of purchase. Can you get the original purchaser (you?) to find a bank statement? I'd keep looking for some proof of purchase. Good luck


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Did the person who gifted you the bike keep the receipt? Or maybe the shop they bought it at has a record of the purchase?

If so, let them process the warranty replacement?

I'm getting a "there must be more to this story" vibe here...


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

sounds like the frame is second hand.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

factory feel said:


> wait.....
> 
> 
> what?


This story is getting more and more amazing by the day. 

But what really stands out is the stupidity and incompetence of Giant. They really have cosmic proportions. 

- Giant can't design carbon frames. The design flaws are so obvious that a carbon expert immediately sees them.
- Giant cannot properly manufacture carbon frames. Another thing a carbon expert immediately sees.

Now, let's be mild and say this a cunning plan to swindle customers out of their hard-earned money.

But then the following happens: somebody has a warranty claim and you can refuse it by simply pointing out that he's not the first owner (or that he didn't purchase the bike, it's getting unclear to me). 
That's what I would have done if I were Giant, certainly when there's so much evidence I can't design nor manufacture carbon frames. You don't want to attract unwanted attention, do you? 

And what does Giant? _They deny it's a design and/or manufacturing flaw!_ 

How stupid can you be? Ten days later you have to admit the customer was right - it's a valid warranty claim - but because he's not the first owner etc. etc. 

Giant has done really _everything _within its means to tarnish its reputation. Faut le faire!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

HFroller said:


> This story is getting more and more amazing by the day.
> 
> But what really stands out is the stupidity and incompetence of Giant. They really have cosmic proportions.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind, We're only hearing one side of the story.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

factory feel said:


> Keep in mind, We're only hearing one side of the story.


Yup. I don't believe for an instant that Giant would've taken the frame (for 3 weeks of evaluation) knowing up front he wasn't the original owner. Not buying it. They wouldn't waste their time.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Coming to the conclusion that Giant cannot design or manufacture carbon bike frames based on the story of one Internet forum thread vs their global track record may be a little short-sided. On the whole they are very reputable.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jetdog9 said:


> Coming to the conclusion that Giant cannot design or manufacture carbon bike frames based on the story of one Internet forum thread vs their global track record may be a little short-sided. On the whole they are very reputable.


And the world's largest bike manufacturer. 

Clearly.. they can't design or manufacture.


----------



## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

jetdog9 said:


> Coming to the conclusion that Giant cannot design or manufacture carbon bike frames based on the story of one Internet forum thread vs their global track record may be a little short-sided. On the whole they are very reputable.


To be clear: I've had a Giant TCR (carbon frame) and I can't complain about their customer service. After a few months the saddle started to creak and they replace the seat post immediately, no questions asked. Problem solved.

The frame didn't fit (my fault!) but for the rest it was the best frame I've ever had. I now ride a Bianchi Intenso (also carbon), which has a near perfect fit for me. It has a nice, comfortable frame but I personally feel the Giant was technically superior (and much cheaper...).

No, I'm not judging Giant, I was only expressing my amazement. Never before I read a claim by somebody that a company like Giant can’t properly design or manufacture frames(*), and throws a near-suicidal commercial attitude into the bargain. 

Not saying it isn't true, but amazing it is. 


(*) As confirmed by some of the top composite experts in the country, who have been expert witnesses (ironically for bike manufacturers) in personal injury cases. 

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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

I don't know of any bicycle manufacturer who gives a warranty that covers beyond the original owner, so I do not know why people are castigating Giant over this. If the bike was purchased as a gift, then the OP should have been given a receipt as well.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

Got my frame back, minus a bunch of parts including the cable guide and bottom bracket. The LBS says they did not touch the frame. The BB is not that big a deal, I can get another for $20, but where do you get a Giant cable guide for this specific frame? Let me guess, Giant will sell me one. I am beginning to hate GIANT.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

Here is a better image of the failure with the cable guide out of the way thanks to Giant losing it.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

it's still cracked


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

Sadly.


factory feel said:


> it's still cracked


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

oh I thought you got it back from being repaired.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

tlg said:


> And the world's largest bike manufacturer.
> 
> Clearly.. they can't design or manufacture.


GM used to be the largest automobile manufacturer and some of the engineering was well not exactly top shelf.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

factory feel said:


> oh I thought you got it back from being repaired.


Nope, Giant would not return the frame. They kept promising to have it at the shop at Tuesday, but there was always an excuse. Finally showed up. I am going to send it out for repair soon.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Paul H said:


> GM used to be the largest automobile manufacturer and some of the engineering was well not exactly top shelf.


Which may have something to do with their global market share dropping drastically in the 1980s during the Roger Smith years. 

But hey, as long as the stock holders are happy, who needs quality?


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

I would insist that they return the b.b. and cable guide. Terrible customer service.

Maybe more of these failures need to be addressed with the CPSC.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Paul H said:


> Nope, Giant would not return the frame. They kept promising to have it at the shop at Tuesday, but there was always an excuse. Finally showed up. I am going to send it out for repair soon.


get the shop to get back the missing parts, they owe you those as they are your property. TBH after a repair that will be good to ride for years more. Ride it till you buy your next bike and don't buy another Giant. What did Giant attribute the damage to?


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Reading Paul's travails here is terrible. I personally have never heard of bad-mouthing about Giant---and their bikes (their name-branded ones) constitute a decent amount of ownership from the riders/racers I know in the Benelux region. Many have a Giant in their stable. 

I always thought if I was going to finally going to get past my worries & concerns about owning/riding a carbon (_which I am in the process of doing via another thread here_), I should consider a Giant. Was considering a Defy, despite it not having rim brakes which is sort of something I really wanted to stay with when going to a carbon frame. Now, due to this thread, considering a Giant I am just not so sure now.......


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

BelgianHammer said:


> Reading Paul's travails here is terrible. I personally have never heard of bad-mouthing about Giant---and their bikes (their name-branded ones) constitute a decent amount of ownership from the riders/racers I know in the Benelux region. Many have a Giant in their stable.
> 
> I always thought if I was going to finally going to get past my worries & concerns about owning/riding a carbon (_which I am in the process of doing via another thread here_), I should consider a Giant. *Was considering a Defy, despite it not having rim brakes *which is sort of something I really wanted to stay with when going to a carbon frame. Now, due to this thread, considering a Giant I am just not so sure now.......


It also has a press fit BB which I know you are trying to avoid.

I really like the black/yellow and black/orange color schemes on the Defy Advanced 1 and Defy Advanced 3 models. They look really sharp. And it seems like you're getting a lot of bike for the money on the Defy Advanced 1 even if those wheels are throw aways.

However, after hearing about the lackluster customer service here, I would be hesitant.


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## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Which may have something to do with their global market share dropping drastically in the 1980s during the Roger Smith years.
> 
> But hey, as long as the stock holders are happy, who needs quality?


More like, keeping the stockholders un-annoyed is necessary so they can continue to give themselves eye-watering bonuses. But you're right, quality takes a back seat to the REAL concerns of the business. And still does.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

*Repaired*

Thanks to Cameron from "Broken Carbon" in Boulder Colorado the frame is repaired. Time to build the bike up.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Just curious, would he have charged extra to fix the paint/finish or is the pic from before he is done? I'm sure it's functionally fine but I don't think I've ever seen a carbon repair job look like that (not that anybody sees that part of the bike).


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Looks good to me.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

He put clear coat on it. The repair looks better in person, but I can paint it if I want. I don't remember if we discussed paint work.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

jetdog9 said:


> Just curious, would he have charged extra to fix the paint/finish or is the pic from before he is done? I'm sure it's functionally fine but I don't think I've ever seen a carbon repair job look like that (not that anybody sees that part of the bike).


looks like the repairer used 12k weave, which makes it look a lot different than the unidirectional carbon. Using unidirectional to repair would make the repair not as strong. Anyway, the repair looks functionally good to me


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

*After quick paint*

Painted with flat black and added cable guides.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Just FYI I wasn't meaning to be critical, was just curious. All the frame repairs I've seen otherwise in person (my own and a couple friends) were all on frames that had gloss paint jobs and the painting after the frame repair made it impossible to tell work was even done.


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## Paul H (May 2, 2018)

I think the flat black would have been difficult to match and with the location on the bottom, I was not that concerned. But I painted it anyway, not professional but a little better.


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