# Realistic expectations



## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I bought a new bike, Focus Izalco with Force 22 a few weeks ago. Shop calls and says it's ready I pick it up on a Friday night. Put it on the roof of the car using seasucker take it home. Saturday morning, I'm riding up a 10% grade in the small (36T) ring and a 22 cog when I stand to crest the hill the pedals seized and then I hear a clunk and the rear wheel locked up. I managed to unclip before falling over and see that the derailleur hanger tore off and was wedged between the wheel and the chainstay. The bike had exactly 1.7 miles on it. I took it back to the shop and they put it in the workstand to go over what caused the problem. There is no damage to the drive side spokes that would indicate that they pulled the derailleur into the wheel (I wasn't shifting nor was I in the 28 cog but people lie all the time). There is nothing in the chain at that point, I didn't see anything in the chain at the time either. The only thing that we could find was that the derailleur if stretched would get stuck, there was a small nut inside that would rub the cage and not allow the rear derailleur to close. 

Either way, there is paint damage to the chainstay on both side, the chain is not slightly bent, the derailleur doesn't close and when it hit the chainstay a piece of carbon fiber split off. 

The LBS said they would call Focus on Monday and see if they would be willing to replace the frame since it literally broke 5 minutes into the first ride. They also said that they would warranty the derailleur, hanger, and chain with SRAM and get it there in the event that Focus does not replace the frame (there is no damage that I can tell to the actual carbon, just clearcoat and paint). 

My question is how long should it take to get an answer from Focus realistically on whether they are going to do anything? I am hoping that they will replace the frame but I expect that they wont since it is paint damage and the frame didn't fail. I called the LBS on Wednesday to follow up and they said that they sent some pictures to Focus and they would let me know. I called today and was told the guy that was talking to them on Wednesday and Friday was off on Mondays. Does anyone have a good idea how long I should expect it to take to get a firm answer (not the actual replacement work) on what they are doing with the bike. 

I am trying to be patient but I am getting frustrated because I paid for a bike that I had for 12 hours and the bike shop has had for 9 days now with no answer.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Ask the bike shop if they can provide you with a loaner until your issue is resolved. The loaner doesn't have to be equivalent to your Focus; just something to keep you on the road. If you paid with a credit card, you can "suggest" to the shop that you'll suspend credit card payment if you don't get a response in X. Most credit card companies will suspend payment under certain circumstances so check with your card issuer.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I can check with the cc company. I paid with a card to earn airline miles but I believe that I already paid the card balance down to zero. 

The loaner is not a bad idea. I bought the bike because I was hit by a car and the frame cracked on my other bike. I have a TT bike but it's not comfortable since the accident because of some residual swelling in my back. 

I like the guys at this LBS, it's my first purchase through them but I stopped to talk to them a few times. I get there is only so much they can do, so I don't want to be a jerk. At the same time, they are not making any more money on this deal so I wonder how much effort goes into resolving this versus finishing jobs that will pay still. 

I would ultimately be less frustrated if they simply said it takes roughly X days to get a response from Focus and they want to verify X, Y, and Z first. We should have an answer by such and such date and if they replace the frame/bike then we would get the replacement on such and such date.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

2-4 weeks for a definitive answer is reasonable, IMO. Two weeks would be quick. Four weeks would not be unreasonable. These things take time.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

As a fellow Izalco owner, good luck.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

colnagoG60 said:


> As a fellow Izalco owner, good luck.


Is that like a good luck because you like the bike or a good luck because you've had trouble with it?


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

tvad said:


> 2-4 weeks for a definitive answer is reasonable, IMO. Two weeks would be quick. Four weeks would not be unreasonable. These things take time.


Is that based on your experience with warranty items or just what you would expect? If that is pretty accurate that means that I will be looking at 6-8 weeks total without a bike accounting for shipping and the shop moving over the chainrings that we swapped over to. Definitely not ideal for a new purchase.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

doctormike said:


> Is that based on your experience with warranty items or just what you would expect? If that is pretty accurate that means that I will be looking at 6-8 weeks total without a bike accounting for shipping and the shop moving over the chainrings that we swapped over to. Definitely not ideal for a new purchase.


That's based on experience with warranty items.

6-8 weeks to being whole might be realistic. It's hard to be patient. 

Heck, I made a 50% downpayment on a custom frame on January 2014, and it has just now been completed...10 months later.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

doctormike said:


> Is that like a good luck because you like the bike or a good luck because you've had trouble with it?


Happy with mine, kicking myself for returning the 2nd one I had...thinking about buying another again.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

I would be very surprised to see focus warranty anything in this case. Based on the brief description, it was not a frame failure. 

It sounds like user error or component adjustment failure (e.g. LBS didn't build the bike correctly) - short chained is my first guess. Maybe a bent hanger. 

OTOH, I had a bike frame destroyed from hitting a bump and having the R mech suck into the wheel. My JRA. 

Different company - but my neighbor had a frame warranty. It took 9 months for him to get a new frame. From the very first look at the frame the manufacturer agreed it was a warranty. It then took 8 1/2 additional months for him to actually receive the replacement.

You can do credit card charge backs for a up to a couple months after the charge. Unfortunately, that may be your best hope (although it will ruin any relationship you have with the shop b/c they are the ones that will lose the money). You may want to call them and see if your card gives you any benefits/protections.

Edit: Re-read OP. If you were in the small chain ring, a short chain was not a cause.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

crit_boy said:


> I would be very surprised to see focus warranty anything in this case. Based on the brief description, it was not a frame failure.


True, it wasn't a frame failure. But a completed Focus bike was purchased. With that comes not only the explicit limited warranty, but an implied warranty of suitability for use. How Focus and the LBS resolve it may be disputed between them, but in this case as represented here the failure should be a warranty resolution to the OP including damage to the frame. The frame damage, however, doesn't necessarily mean a new frame - it could mean repaint, etc., and that could lead to months. So the final question could be how long is the OP willing to wait?

For the OP - I would immediately call the CC company, and dispute the charge pending satisfactory warranty resolution.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

I just read through the thread. This is a shitty situation for the OP, sorry you have to deal with this. We've had a thread here where a guy purchased a Specialized Tarmac McLaren edition (orange/black) and had - what appears to be - the exact same method of failure. He also went through the song and dance with the shop. I tried locating this thread for you but I was unable.

If you do any sort of considerable business with the CC issuer, you will likely prevail in your dispute, but I wouldn't set foot in that shop again. You can also choose to dispute a portion of the charge, a portion equivalent to the amount which you believe will make you whole. Paying down the balance does not matter, as you will just get a credit balance in the amount of the dispute.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

tvad said:


> 2-4 weeks for a definitive answer is reasonable, IMO. Two weeks would be quick. Four weeks would not be unreasonable. These things take time.


I never had to wait more than 3 weeks for something like this, yes things take time but hopefully not that long.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tvad said:


> 2-4 weeks for a definitive answer is reasonable, IMO. Two weeks would be quick. Four weeks would not be unreasonable. These things take time.


If this were Trek I'd have an answer in 24hrs at most. If this same thing happened w/ a Trek I'd process the online warranty claim, then email my warranty rep w/ the claim info and request that he get right on it. If it didn't hear from him by the end of the day (depending on timing) I'd be surprised. Focus is nowhere near as large as Trek, which could be good (small company/not as many problems) or bad (they don't have the same level of efficiency in their systems). Good luck with it either way!


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

cxwrench said:


> If this were Trek I'd have an answer in 24hrs at most.


That's the difference between a company based in the USA vs. one based in Europe.

I know a couple Time bike owners who waited months for warranty claim service.

I hope it takes the OP a week at most.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tvad said:


> That's the difference between a company based in the USA vs. one based in Europe.
> 
> I know a couple Time bike owners who waited months for warranty claim service.
> 
> I hope it takes the OP a week at most.


They do have a USA based distributor, or so it seems. They should be able to make the call on warranty/crash replacement issues.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

cxwrench said:


> They do have a USA based distributor, or so it seems. They should be able to make the call on warranty/crash replacement issues.


Thumbs up!!!


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

Here's an update on what I have found out. I called the CC company and they basically said that I can claim that the product did not meet my expectations and they will force the "seller" to prove that it was not a product problem (meaning the whole bike worked perfectly). The CC is with Chase and I have been with them for a long time so they want to keep my business. The guy I talked to was very candid and said it is hard for a "seller" to prove that the product was not damaged and below expectations in this situation. That is especially true since the LBS sent an update stating that they cannot figure out what caused the failure (using that term loosely since I am aware that a derailleur hanger is designed to tear off instead of damage the dropout). They told me that I have 90 days to decide what I would like to do.

The LBS updated me and basically said that they are fixing the hanger, derailleur, and spoke and will give me the bike back this week. Then once Focus decides if they are going to do anything with the frame, they will let me know. If they decided to replace/repair it, I would just bring the bike back and they would take care of it. 

I am not sure what I want to/should do in this situation. If I dispute the charge, I may be screwing the LBS. If they can get Focus to replace the frame then I guess they could resell the new bike. However, if they can't then they just lost their money and obviously I would feel bad going back there so they are losing a customer. At the same time, I believe that no bicycle should fail like that during the first 2 miles of a ride. While the frame did not fail, the bicycle was purchased as a whole and the part that broke damaged the frame. To me that is like buying a new car and having a wheel pop and damage the fender. I wouldn't accept that it is a continental problem since it is their tire but the car did what it was supposed to do. The big difference is obviously the price. 

I am interested to know what the general consensus would be on what you would do in this situation. Would you take the frame back and pay to repair it yourself? Dispute the charge and not pick the bike back up? Wait to hear back from Focus in 2-4 weeks (according to the shop) and then return the bike and dispute the charge?

Basic facts being that I dropped over 3k on the bike, plus pedals and new chainrings all from the LBS. The bike has 1.7 miles on it and there is no evidence that it was user error according to the LBS. If they came back and said it was because of something I did, I would take it back and pay for it myself (assuming they could actually explain how it was my fault and not just say it's a JRA situation so you must be to blame).


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Seems to me the LBS is acting in good faith. A CC charge back is a pretty serious action...retailers hate charge backs.

If it were me, I'd remain patient while the LBS worked with Focus on the warranty issue. If in 4 weeks they have not provided satisfactory progress, _then_ I would take the CC charge back step.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

It's tough call. It sounds like you want to preserve your relationship with this LBS, which is completely understandable. How about the LBS - do they want to maintain their relationship with you as a customer? What is that worth to you? 

It comes down to are you willing to accept the frame as it is now, damaged even if minimally so? If it were me I would not. I would hold off on disputing the charge given you can act within the 90 days. But with that I would NOT take the bike back until it the entire issue was resolved to my satisfaction. With that I would politely tell the LBS that I expected the frame to be dealt with, as well as the mechanical failure. If the LBS balks at that at all, then I would explain the option to dispute the charge with the CC company, summarizing the discussion you had if necessary.

The problem is you are effectively out of a bike until you get a final answer. But this is simply a business decision. If that is unacceptably difficult for you, then you're pretty much stuck with having to be willing to accept the frame damage, whatever that is.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I would guess that the shop wants to keep me as a customer, but I am not sure of that. I know that I once bought a bike from performance and when I had a component warranty issue they just told me I had to buy a new one. I went to a small LBS and they fixed it for me right there, and I ended up buying a $300 SRAM red cassette on my way out. 

As far as the damage goes, this is basically what I am looking at.









EDIT there is one scratch to the carbon on the bottom of the chainstay as well that would need to be repaired. I definitely would need to reapply clearcoat and then probably would get a protective film to cover what was damaged.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

Then some damage to the paint near the dropout. I would probably fix that as well just to be safe. Doubt anything is vulnerable there unless another derailleur hanger broke.








These are the two photos that the bike shop took before I gave it back to them. They sent them to me so I could see what the frame damage looks like again without going there.


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## Sanders (May 13, 2013)

I'd keep an eye out for that 90-day charge back limit. 
Just to be sure you haven't lost your money when you feel they haven't treaded this ciase the way they should.
But at this point, the LBS seems to do the best they can for you. I would respect that. 
You can also tell by the way they treat you when you're in the shop. Sounds like they are being friendly and cooperative.
_If_ Focus decides it's not their problem, you could try to divide the repair costs between you and the shop.
Paint repair should end up somewhere between $ 100 and 300 for just the rear drive-side, just an estimate figure.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I would not settle for less than a new frame personally. Hope you do not have to loose your relationship with the LBS to make it happen, best luck on it!.

I'd add that the 'paint' issue on the dropout area appears perhaps more like a lot of carbon movement happen during the event and not just got scratched up from topical trauma. If that is the case there may well be fibers broken in the substrate?, If I am using that term correctly. [or beneath the substrate?]


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Not bad, but if it were mine I wouldn't accept it under these conditions as a new bike. But that's me, speaking for my money. I would try to have a pleasant talk with the LBS owner/GM, and reach an agreement on an acceptable resolution with a 45 day limit from the time you took the bike in. If it couldn't be resolved in that time, then I wouldn't want a Focus, and I'd also want a different LBS. Again, that's what I would choose.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ibericb said:


> ...if it were mine I wouldn't accept it under these conditions as a new bike. But that's me, speaking for my money. I would try to have a pleasant talk with the LBS owner/GM, and reach an agreement on an acceptable resolution with a 45 day limit from the time you took the bike in. If it couldn't be resolved in that time, then I wouldn't want a Focus, and I'd also want a different LBS.


I concur. A 45 day limit is reasonable. After that, it'd be time for me to press for a refund and move on.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Any chance it's a wheel/freehub issue? What kind of wheels are they? No way to say from where I am, but it's just a thought.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

cxwrench said:


> Any chance it's a wheel/freehub issue? What kind of wheels are they? No way to say from where I am, but it's just a thought.


I was wondering that but didn't have enough time with the bike to check. I had to get it to the shop before they closed. The wheels are fulcrum WH-CEX 2.5's but they are supposedly modified for Focus to reduce weight blah blah blah. I saw a few videos that caused derailleur hangers to break when the hub would jam while the pedals were moving. 

If that is the case, would Focus be more likely to repair/replace the frame or will is be similar to a component issue where they can say it is their problem?

I did read that SRAM in the past has repair/paid to replace frames when their product causes damage to the frame. Not very likely without substantial proof but a possibility.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

This was either an assembly issue, thus the LBS's problem, not Focus' or it was a failure of the derailleur hanger, which would be on Focus, not the LBS. This should not be your problem. I would expect either a new frame or a re-paint of the existing plus component repairs. You paid for a new bike, not a damaged one.

Warranty issues are part of just about any business. Don't feel bad about asserting yourself.

That CC charge back is your trump card, but you can slow play that.

I would nicely approach the LBS and explain your expectations. Let them worry about who pays for it in the end. If they think you will accept the damaged frame they will not push it with Focus.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

If it was me, (and there was no damage to the frame), I'd ask them to just touch up the frame, the best they could. (that's if the frame was not replaced).
You're going to crash on the frame anyhow, so why make the shop eat the frame? Maybe you could make a "deal" where you get a few things at "cost". (like a spare cassette, or something like that)


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> You're going to crash on the frame anyhow, so why make the shop eat the frame? Maybe you could make a "deal" where you get a few things at "cost". (like a spare cassette, or something like that)


I thought about that. As a crit racer there is a good chance that the bike will go down in the future. At the same time, I would rather be the cause (even if that means simply deciding to race) for the damage than starting off that way. My understanding is that bike shops don't markup components much but that they make money on service. I prefer to do my own work on my bikes, so I don't know how much of a deal I could work out.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I guess I missed the crit angle. Me, I'd race an $800 CAAD# and use the $3K bike for training and other club or what ever rides.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

robt57 said:


> I guess I missed the crit angle. Me, I'd race an $800 CAAD# and use the $3K bike for training and other club or what ever rides.


^This^ I'm always amazed by how much the local racers, especially masters, spend on crazy nice bikes only to go out and get crashed at the saturday worlds.


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

tvad said:


> Heck, I made a 50% downpayment on a custom frame on January 2014, and it has just now been completed...10 months later.


You know it is 2015 already, right? So that would be 22 months...


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Got Time said:


> You know it is 2015 already, right? So that would be 22 months...


You're right. Time flies. I should really have complained a year earlier, huh?


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

CXwrench: I wish that we had races on Saturday. I would never race a superbike but would say that I rarely see structural damage to the frame after a crash in my races (3's and P1/2/3). I have seen a few frames or forks crack but mostly broken derailleurs, spokes, shifters, and wheels. 

Ultimately, I decided to shoot the shop an email (our primary way of communicating because I can't always get to the phone) and let them know that I believe that a fair resolution would be to have the frame/bike replaced. I was polite and made sure to acknowledge that they didn't put a defective part/screw something up but at the same time neither did I. I spoke to a friend that had Calfee paint/clearcoat his bike and he said to get it back to new would cost roughly $500 with decals and paint matching. I explained that I don't think I should have to pay an additional $500 for the bike to be restored to the condition it should be with 2 miles and no accidents. I will see what they say. The shop manager made a comment when I first brought it back that the bike should be replaced because no bike should break that quickly without a direct cause. If they don't want to work with me I can pick up my water bottle cages and my garmin mount and head elsewhere. 

It sucks because they seemed pretty cool but I shouldn't have to be the one to fix this.


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## Ronsonic (Nov 11, 2004)

I am not a CF expert at all. But ..... That rear dropout looks like structural damage. ATMO, you paid for a new frame and that ain't it. BCH is right, make sure the shop is clear about your expectations and give them time to work with Focus. And do yourself and the LBS a favor and call the builder yourself. 

Mfrs (at least in my industry) are far more responsive to customers than to shops. They know where their money comes from and shops either spend their money or take a part of their money.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Ronsonic said:


> I am not a CF expert at all. But ..... That rear dropout looks like structural damage.


I though so too potentially looking at it. But I don't know if that is Aluminum at the drop out area on that bike/frame. My Addict is the only frame I have ever owned that has zero metal, 100% carbon thru and thru. It was way above the price point of the OPs frame even 6-7 ago. Like over double that bike entire price just for the frameset. So in my minds eye, I am thinking it is likely Aluminum back there...


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

doctormike said:


> Ultimately, I decided to shoot the shop an email (our primary way of communicating because I can't always get to the phone)


Followup with a personal visit. An e-mail gives them the opportunity to come up with excuses. It also hides any emotion/visual cues from a communication. Face to face you will have a better ability to fully communicate and they will know you are serious... nice, but serious. Have the discussion with the shop owner. He/she is the one with the authority to make the call to keep you as a happy customer.

Good Luck


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

doctormike said:


> ... If they don't want to work with me I can pick up my water bottle cages and my garmin mount and head elsewhere.
> 
> It sucks because they seemed pretty cool but I shouldn't have to be the one to fix this.


FWIW, I believe you're on the right track. I would also encourage you to follow-up with a friendly face-to-face ASAP, to show good will and intent on your part, and to help you judge their's.

Good luck!


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Reiterating one opinion above, "This was either an assembly issue, thus the LBS's problem, not Focus' or it was a failure of the derailleur hanger, which would be on Focus, not the LBS. This should not be your problem."

It has to be one or the other, if you're being honest with us - and it's obvious that you are - then there's just no other way. If you do not end up with a new frame then either Focus is telling you to go kick rocks despite their liability, or the LBS is (despite theirs).

If you don't get a new frame and yet you can't bring yourself to press the button the full Chase chargeback, consider a partial charge back. LBS likely has a margin of 10-20% on this bike. That's $300-$600 which you can use to repair the bicycle. The shop won't be out of pocket, just won't bank a profit on this sale.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I swung over to the shop today but the manager and the main guy that deals with warranty stuff we're both out. The shop is about 60 miles from the house so not easy to swing in especially with the way traffic is. I briefly talked to a mechanic there and was friendly. I asked him to let the manager know I stopped by and mentioned that I'm not mad at the shop but I expect a certain level of quality out of a bike and that wasn't it. 

The frame, including the dropouts are full carbon. The msrp of the bike is 4600 but it's now 2 models old since the 2016 line just dropped so I picked it up for just over 3k as they had it in their warehouse.

As for the dropouts being damaged, I asked the mechanic and he checked some papers and said there are no notes about frame damage. The manager sent an email saying that I could ride the frame since they see no damage other than the paint until we get an answer from Focus in his email. I politely declined and let him know that I will ride my other bike until we sort it out to avoid any complications. 

If I am out that way this weekend I will try to stop in again when I know the manager will be there. Other than the argument of "your going to crash it at some point, just ask for something else instead" pretty much everyone I ride with said that they wouldn't take it back without a new frame. 

I am curious now if the dropout is damaged or if it is the angle of the photo.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

doctormike said:


> The frame, including the dropouts are full carbon. . .
> 
> As for the dropouts being damaged, I asked the mechanic and he checked some papers and said there are no notes about frame damage. . .
> 
> ...


You seem to be totally on track IMO.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I agree with robt57.

Just FYI - carbon fiber damage on hollow tubes (chainstays) can hide extremely well under paint. It can be cracked without showing any sign of damage on the surface. Just because you don't see a break doesn't mean the frame is not compromised. It would take someone with sound knowledge and experience to assess the frame for deeper damage than what you see on the surface.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

9W9W said:


> If you don't get a new frame and yet you can't bring yourself to press the button the full Chase chargeback, consider a partial charge back. LBS likely has a margin of 10-20% on this bike. That's $300-$600 which you can use to repair the bicycle. The shop won't be out of pocket, just won't bank a profit on this sale.


Don't take this as a defense of the shop - the fact that the OP doesn't know what's going to happen, doesn't know when it's going to happen, and it's been this much time is unconscionable. At times I can't get ahold of my Specialized warranty rep for a decision on Monday (Monday is a very busy day for that department) but it's never longer than Tuesday. I have no idea what is taking them so long. 

But, if bike shops buy bikes and sell them at what they pay for them, they go out of business. They don't break even. You're forgetting about credit card fees, rent, insurance, payroll, phones, utilities, internet, and a host of other very real costs. What they pay for the bike is only one cost.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Masters usually have the deep pockets. I'm one of the few that still race on "old school" 32 hole tubular box rims that I can rebuild in an hour or two, after a crash.

It's not uncommon to see $3000 wheelsets in local Crits.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

Just an update on what has happened. Since stopping in to the shop (the manager and the guy that was helping me were both out) I have not heard anything. I figured by now I would have got an email back from the shop from the manager. I am going to be out in that area later this week, so I am going to stop into the shop again. Hopefully I will get a chance to talk to the manager. 

I'm trying to be optimistic but I am starting to worry that the shop has written my case off. I talked to a friend that runs a shop that carries Focus and he said that he normally can get an answer in a week normally. He was telling me that with the bike being new, he would expect Focus to replace the bike being that there is no obvious damage caused by the user. Of course he threw in there that if I bought the bike from him that he would have given me a another model right that and fought it out with Focus (I have known him long enough to know that was a jab for not buying it from him, although he was only carrying the 2016 models at the time).

Hopefully I will hear something from the shop manager this week. I attempted to contact Focus but they told me to take it to an authorized dealer to look at. It doesn't have to be the dealer I bought it from. I have thought about picking the bike up and taking it to another shop to work with (maybe my friend that is a Focus dealer) but I am not sure how motivated another shop would be to help out since I didn't get the bike from them.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

doctormike said:


> Just an update on what has happened. ...
> 
> Hopefully I will hear something from the shop manager this week. ...


Nope, that doesn't sound promising. But I wouldn't jump shops at this point, and I certainly would NOT retake possession of the frame (then you are completely at the mercy of whichever shop you turn to).

I'd call the shop 15 min's after opening time, and ask for the head guy you've been talking with. If he's not there ask for a return call, and also ask when they expect him back. After that give 24 hours. If by then no response, call and send an email letting them know that if you don't have a response within the following 24 hours you will dispute the charge. Do all of this calmly and cordially. 

It's easy for me to say that as I have no financial or emotional investment in your bike. But you hold the trump card, with the CC company. Stay calm, and work though this.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ibericb said:


> I'd call the shop 15 min's after opening time, and ask for the head guy you've been talking with. If he's not there ask for a return call, and also ask when they expect him back. After that give 24 hours. If by then no response, call and send an email letting them know that if you don't have a response within the following 24 hours you will dispute the charge.


^This. The shop is too far to risk a drive only to find the decision maker (owner or manager) isn't in the store. Call ahead and make an appointment. Don't give up until you've nailed down a specific day and time for you to meet face to face with the decision maker.

Also, if it were me, I'd skip the email step, and I'd mail a letter to the owner with his signature required for delivery specifying your time limit for filing a credit card dispute. Make certain to keep a copy of the letter for yourself.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I finally got to talk to the manager on Monday. He basically said that they contacted Focus and are still waiting. When I tried to figure out what that specifically meant he talked in circles. I was pretty frustrated so I started calling every number I could find on the internet and was asking questions. I finally got someone that said they could not work with me on a warranty issue but he felt bad that I was not happy with their product. He told me that a typical case gets a response within a week and that they trust the mechanic at their authorized dealers but also have their specialist look at the damage and then determine if they believe a warranty or crash replacement is appropriate. 

By the time I got another break the bike shop was closed so I sent them an email. I explained that I was able to contact someone and even though they wouldn't help me directly they said it shouldn't take more than a week to get a decision (if they replaced the frame it might take longer depending on where they had to send the frame from). I expressed my frustration that we are at a month and they have no information. I told them that I would give them until Monday to get an answer or I would file the dispute with my credit card company. I thought for sure that I would get a response from them the next day, either saying they are doing everything they can or that they will do their best to resolve this issue. I got absolutely nothing from them. I guess at this point I will be filing the dispute on Monday. I really was looking forward to riding that. 

I have started looking at bikes again. I am looking at the 2015 De Rosa Idol now or possibly a 2015 Fuji SST with DA. Any thoughts on either of those?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

doctormike said:


> guess at this point I will be filing the dispute on Monday.


Agree with your decision. You've waited long enough and aren't getting good service from the LBS. Time to drop the hammer.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

doctormike said:


> I finally got to talk to the manager on Monday.
> ...
> I have started looking at bikes again. I am looking at the 2015 De Rosa Idol now or possibly a 2015 Fuji SST with DA. Any thoughts on either of those?


That sucks. But FWIW, I believe you're making the right decision, and have approached this rationally, having given the LBS every opportunity to respond legitimately. For whatever reason it appears that they have chosen to try to dodge the issue entirely. Not a good sign for the shop.

Good luck with your hunt for a new bike. On that I can't offer much - don't know anything about either of those, other than reviews I suspect you've already read.


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## BigPoser (Jan 11, 2013)

Very sorry to hear about this issue. As a Focus owner myself, I can't say enough about them. I hope that you get some sort of resolution on the matter. 

Have you thought about taking the bike to your friend (the Focus dealer) to see what they can do? Probably too late at this point, but as a dealer, he might actually be able to get somewhere and since he's your friend I'm sure that he'd stay on top of it as well.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I need to vent and I can take the harsh feedback that is often dished out on the forums.

I heard back from the manager and he said that Focus denied the claim. Then he proceeded to summarize what he explained to Focus. He told them that two mechanics looked at the bicycle before it left the shop and they did not see any defects. The two mechanics are the guy that put the brake on, wheels on, and put the derailleur hanger on the bike (basic build as the bike was sent mostly built). The second mechanic was the guy that swapped the chainrings from a 50/34 to a 52/36 then back to a 50/36 when he realized he ordered the wrong 52 ring. Once he readjusted the derailleurs they took it in the parking lot for a lap and deemed it good to go. So basically they are saying that a perfect bike left their shop late on a Friday night and first thing Saturday morning within 10 minutes of the first use it was so out of tune that the derailleur hanger malfunctioned and the derailleur tore off. They failed to mention that the bike only traveled 1.7 miles and operated for 9 minutes including the red lights that I hit. They are confident that there were no issues with the bike or adjustments that were made. That made me pretty anger, seeings how he basically threw me, the customer, under the bus as the cause of the problem. 

Being irritated from the explanation that they provided to Focus, I ended up very angry after their continued explanation. They continued to tell me that the cost of the derailleur, hanger, and the one bent spoke was going to make the bike a net loss for the shop. Now MSRP (which is not what a shop pays) for all the parts comes up to $168. They did pay for the shipping of the bike to the shop and someone to put it together. I bought the rings from them so I am not counting the time it takes to put those on because the profit margin is generally larger on components and I wanted to install them myself. They insisted that they do it. 

After all that the manager did come back with an offer of $250 off the purchase price to cover the bike damage. I actually thought that was reasonable except for the fact that to get the bike inspected (because now the shop is not sure if there is underlying damage, which is what the money is for), I need to disassemble the bike and take the frame in to a carbon repair place. I called about my old frame and they said that turn around is about a month to six weeks now. That leaves me without the bike for another 6-8 weeks depending on when they can get the bike to me with all the parts. 

Had the shop said from the beginning that they weren't going to be able to write anything helpful and that it would take them a while to get anything back so they would offer replacement parts and 250 off to get the bike fixed on my own, I probably would have taken it. At this point, a month later, they still don't have the replacement parts and didn't think to contact SRAM about the derailleur being jammed. 

Needless to say I have completely given up on that shop.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

^ Didn't you file a credit card dispute? That should take care of the issue without further discussion required between yourself and the LBS.

Your continuing chapters in the saga make it seem as though you didn't follow through with the CC dispute.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

doctormike said:


> I need to vent ...
> 
> Needless to say I have completely given up on that shop.


The venting is justified.

Good decision about the LBS.

Follow though on the dispute.

FWIW - IMO the shop likely likely crafted their story to Focus to absolve themselves of any culpability in the problem, leaving them in the clear. They are not credible. Sadly, Focus isn't open to your account. Move on, with a different LBS and a different bike manufacturer. Neither is worthy of your hard earned dollars.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah, no doubt the shop is ****. We got that. You can egg it on the way home, or something.

I hoped you filed the dispute with the CC. Take whatever energy you have and pour it into writing affidavits and submit them to the CC, the more information the better. Send pictures as well. If you filed the dispute, my guess is that you should be hearing from them soon. 

You will get your purchase price back and you will have a bike. You can sell the bike as is and go out and buy a new bike. You can ride this bike and keep the money... whatever you decide, file that claim with the CC...you will more than likely prevail.

Secondly, you should go ahead and post the name of the shop so that I don't buy a bike there.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I did file the dispute. They wanted to work something out because they have to pay fees to respond to the dispute and if too many people dispute charges the credit card company takes a higher percentage. I can cancel the dispute at any time if I reach an agreement with the shop. I didn't expect to hear from them.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

9W9W said:


> Yeah, no doubt the shop is ****. We got that. You can egg it on the way home, or something.
> 
> I hoped you filed the dispute with the CC. Take whatever energy you have and pour it into writing affidavits and submit them to the CC, the more information the better. Send pictures as well. If you filed the dispute, my guess is that you should be hearing from them soon.
> 
> You will get your purchase price back and you will have a bike. You can sell the bike as is and go out and buy a new bike. You can ride this bike and keep the money... whatever you decide, file that claim with the CC...


They still have the bike and they can keep it. They are motivated now because they received notice that the charge was being disputed. I'm not calling the shop out by name or even hinting at it. Had nothing went wrong with the bike I would have went back there in a heartbeat.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Let the dispute play out. You've done plenty in good faith.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Interesting, did not know the CC attempts to persuade the shop to settle. 

If I recall correctly you can can always add documents to your open case to straighten your case. 

Good on you. I would not waver, the shops problems are the shops problems. I don't believe for a second that bike left the shop fit for purpose. I don't know of your particular circumstance, but for me this type of financial hit (writeoff) is significant and I would pursue a full refund. 

shop: "sorry we can't help you that would put us at a net loss for the product we've sold you..." ..what?!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

> shop: "sorry we can't help you that would put us at a net loss for the product we've sold you..." ..what?!



That is the same BS as when they say we are only making 168.00 on the sale or similar.
I worked at a LBS and saw the cost/sale ratios on $3k+ bikes.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> I would be very surprised to see focus warranty anything in this case. Based on the brief description, it was not a frame failure.
> 
> It sounds like user error or component adjustment failure (e.g. LBS didn't build the bike correctly)


It was like I could see into the future. 

Now, OP is bringing up some discussion about the LBS switching out chain rings, then switching them back. My money is on the shop not properly building the bike. Mistakes happen. 

The whole situation stinks for the OP and the shop. At least, it is the end of the season. Hopefully, OP will get on a new ride by spring.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> It's not uncommon to see $3000 wheelsets in local Crits.


Around here I'm not shocked most of the masters riders have bikes costing $7k+ (it's also funny to see them get their $5 payout for the podium at the race). What I was shocked by was when a 14 year old lined up next to me on a Pinarello with DA9k and Mavic tubulars with carbon spokes. Maybe his parents should have put that money into a coach that tells him not to attack a crit in the first 30 seconds because he will then get dropped around minute 3.

@OP - Sounds like a bad situation. I'm guessing it's the shops fault. They either set the limit screw to loose causing you to be able to shift into the spokes or a bent derailleur hanger. I had the same thing happen to one of my rides and there was some similar looking damage and I rode it for a few thousand miles afterwards no issue. I also had a front hub flange fail and the wheel go so far out of true that I didn't notice it rubbing against my fork when I rode it to the shop. It took about 0.3-0.5mm of carbon wear out of the front fork. I also rode this for a few thousand miles after with no issues. Carbon is not as weak as many people assume. Just my $0.02.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

The shop having the bike in their possession is important for your dispute. if you had the merchandise then it would be harder to dispute the issue. The fact is you do not have the bike and do not want it. CC company should find in your favor.

If not for a problem you would have been happy with the shop... Hmmm, the test of someone's character does not occur during good times, but rather when problems come up. This problem has shown them to be a poor retailer. You can sleep well and look yourself in the mirror with confidence that you did nothing wrong.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> If not for a problem you would have been happy with the shop... Hmmm, the test of someone's character does not occur during good times, but rather when problems come up. This problem has shown them to be a poor retailer. You can sleep well and look yourself in the mirror with confidence that you did nothing wrong.


Exactly. I'm curious as to what the positive experience you had with the shop is besides them being nice initially. Have they given you a huge discount in the past previously?


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

doctormike said:


> I did file the dispute. They wanted to work something out because they have to pay fees to respond to the dispute and if too many people dispute charges the credit card company takes a higher percentage. I can cancel the dispute at any time if I reach an agreement with the shop. I didn't expect to hear from them.



If you bought the bike and started riding it like that and you were injured when it locked up, it is likely the shop and/or manufacturer could be held responsible for your injuries as well as the bike. Just because you managed to prevent yourself from getting hurt is no reason to be doing the bike shop any favors. They should be happy you aren't lawyering up, and should give you a new bike of comparable value, no questions asked.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> The shop having the bike in their possession is important for your dispute. if you had the merchandise then it would be harder to dispute the issue. The fact is you do not have the bike and do not want it. CC company should find in your favor.


Perxactly!

Under no circumstance retake possession of the bike, unless the CC company decides against you. If it comes to that, however, you'll likely be out the $250 discount offer.


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

I just read through the whole thread and I think you managed this well, doctor mike. IMO there should have been replacement with a new frame as who knows what type of damage lies in the chainstay and seatstay. It also looks like the derailleur hanger is broken in the pic.

You made a comment that the shop installed the hanger which leads me to think the shop was at fault, knows it and gave you the runaround. That's what happens when you pay a 20 year old kid $9 an hour to assemble $3k frames. 

Good luck with the CC dispute and the hunt for a new bike.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

deviousalex said:


> Exactly. I'm curious as to what the positive experience you had with the shop is besides them being nice initially. Have they given you a huge discount in the past previously?


I haven't got anything from the shop before. I have stopped in and talked with them before buying the bike. The lead mechanic was knowledgeable and I have raced with one of the sales guys before. You both make a good point though that until there is an issue every shop probably seems fine. 

That comment is interesting because my wife was telling me that they are treating as a favor to do any customer service work. She pointed out that had it been any other product, that we would have taken it back immediately. She was just asking why bicycles are different because had that been a treadmill or an exercise bike that worked for less than 10 minutes it would be right back at the store and we would leave with a refund or a new one. I had a pair of running shoes that were $230 rip at the sole during the first run and they were replaced immediately. 

My question to the rest of you is what makes a bicycle any different than any other piece of exercise equipment or large purchase item?


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

doctormike said:


> My question to the rest of you is what makes a bicycle any different than any other piece of exercise equipment or large purchase item?


I've wondered that myself. There are two factors involved, the LBS and the manufacturer. A thought, maybe bikes are one of the few big ticket items that are often still bought from what are essentially mom and pop shops. Only other thing I can think of off the top of my head would be high end audio equipment. An independently owned store will reflect the personality of its owner or manager. If you'd gotten your bike at say Dicks Sporting Goods (Performance, maybe equivalent?) you would have an experience closer to that of the broken treadmill.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

doctormike said:


> My question to the rest of you is what makes a bicycle any different than any other piece of exercise equipment or large purchase item?


From the point of view of many bike sellers, it's two things:

- Adjustment points on a bicycle are so easily accessible that a new owner will often grab a screw driver and attempt to fix a perceived issue,

- On a derailleur bike, a small foreign object ("road hazard") in the drive train for even just a few seconds can cause major damage.

These two notions make it easy for a shop to convince itself that it or the manufacturer can't be responsible for the damage.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

> My question to the rest of you is what makes a bicycle any different than any other piece of exercise equipment or large purchase item?


The extended warranties on frames put bike shops in the position of dealing with manufacturers for issues that occur well after a bike is purchased and many miles are put on it. My guess is they are conditioned to that protocol. That really does not apply in your situation as your bike was defective right out of the gate, but the bike shop cannot recognize that.

The settlement with the bike shop should be simple, they get the bike, you get a refund. They are then free to repair the bike and sell it as a demo model. If it costs them $1,000, well that is the cost of doing business.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

The difference is that exercise bikes and treadmills don't generally venture out into the world. Also, people don't generally adjust/customize/fiddle with other exercise equipment the way they do bikes. You were swapping rings before you even rode it. Granted, the LBS did that work, but that isn't always the case. 

I'll jump on the bandwagon and say I think you handled this well. I hope you're on a new ride soon.


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## bigjohnla (Mar 29, 2010)

Sad situation. But, sounds like you gave them every opportunity to make good on their end and they didn't. You paid for a nice new bike and probably looked hard at many bikes to find "the one". It sucks to no have it turn out right. It amazes me any LBS would allow this to happen. Don't know where you are located but in my town (Baton Rouge) almost everybody who rides and races knows lots of other cyclists. Even worse, most cyclists (myself included) are askedfor recommendations on bikes from people interested in taking up the sport. Heck, anytime someone shows up at a ride with a new bike, everybody wants to know all the details. Just by word of mouth a lot of folks are going to find out. Not a good business practice. Good luck. Hope you can channel your frustration into a couple of good wins.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I have thought about the adjustment aspect of returning a bicycle, but as someone brought up here (and my wife), if this were a bike from Sports Authority I would expect them to take it back. I used to return broken parts for cars I would wrench on without a second thought and there was more risk that I damaged the part than it being damaged new. 

As far as the derailleur breaking when something gets stuck in the chain. I have watched the videos of this and read the explanation. The thing that stands out to me is that I race CX on occasion and a lot of crits and an occasional race that includes fire roads (hard packed dirt for fire trucks to clear or access difficult places. I have never seen a derailleur hanger break like that in any of those conditions and there is definitely things getting into the chain. So while I get that it is possible, it seems like it would be pretty unlikely to happen on the road on a new bike. 

As I was pondering this, I kept thinking about how negatively the general public looks at cyclist. I think for me it is almost a protect your own attitude, where we are more likely to absorb the hit, even when we aren't at fault, to protect cycling overall. Everyone shops at Dick's, or Sports Authority ect and returning something is not going to break the store. It has been ingrained in me that the LBS is going to disappear because of the internet and we need to do everything to keep them around.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

bigjohnla said:


> Sad situation. But, sounds like you gave them every opportunity to make good on their end and they didn't. You paid for a nice new bike and probably looked hard at many bikes to find "the one". It sucks to no have it turn out right. It amazes me any LBS would allow this to happen. Don't know where you are located but in my town (Baton Rouge) almost everybody who rides and races knows lots of other cyclists. Even worse, most cyclists (myself included) are askedfor recommendations on bikes from people interested in taking up the sport. Heck, anytime someone shows up at a ride with a new bike, everybody wants to know all the details. Just by word of mouth a lot of folks are going to find out. Not a good business practice. Good luck. Hope you can channel your frustration into a couple of good wins.


I know most of the people that I race with and we hang out a lot this time of year normally just base mile riding. A lot of them knew that I was getting a Focus and where I got it from and the price I paid because they asked. I'm sure that word will spread that it broke and that it was disputed when the shop wasn't straight up from the start. I'm not the type that would tell someone not to go somewhere, but my teammates have all said that they wouldn't go there and who knows who they would tell. I prefer to tell people where I would go and if that shop is brought up I would probably say I had a problem there but not get into details. 

Just think if this would have happened and they fixed it from the word go. I would be lined up in January with that bike talking to people about the new bike and how it broke and the bike shop took good care of me. Now that story will be about how I had a bike that broke and couldn't work it out so I got it somewhere else.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Based on your info (no reason to doubt anything you've been very forthright), I would file.
Focus needs to examine their business model, at this point they are off my list, they can easily write it off as a loss, you on the other hand are rolling the dice.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I would like to update this as a shocking development has occurred. As of my last post, I was informed that Focus denied the claim and the bike shop offered $250 off to cover an inspection and clear coat repair at a local shop and replacing the broken parts. I had already filed the dispute with the credit card company and decided to let that play out. As I was frustrated with the response from Focus, I emailed their customer service and let them know that I was disappointed with my experience and their product. Today, to my surprise I received this:

_Thanks for recently contacting Focus about your warranty claim regarding your Team SL 4.0 54 bike. We are sorry to hear of your frustrations. We have recently spoken with Adrenaline Bikes and no determination has yet been made regarding warranty coverage for your bike. We are waiting to receive additional photos and information from Adrenaline and were advised that they are working directly with you to find a solution for your frame and related parts.

It is important for you to stay in direct contact with the shop to ensure this is taken care of as the information below does not conform with our understanding of your situation with Adrenaline. Until we receive all photos and information from Adrenaline, we are unable to render any type of decision. We await further discussions with Adrenaline and they will keep you updated after we have had a chance to evaluate your warranty claim.
Best regards,

_I emailed them back explaining what happened, attached the Garmin file showing the distance and length of the ride and the receipt showing when I picked the bike up. I explained my difficulty with contacting the shop and the details of their offer. I also let them know that I disputed the charge but would like to know what my options are for resolving this from the company stand point. 

Needless to say, I have no respect for that shop anymore. I have informed the teams I ride and train with of the situation in the hopes that no one else has to be treated this way.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Focus is saying they never denied the claim while the bike shop claims they did?


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

deviousalex said:


> Let me see if I understand this correctly. Focus is saying they never denied the claim while the bike shop claims they did?


Yes. That is exactly what they are saying.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

You can usually submit further documentation/communication to your credit card dispute file. I would suggest adding the communication from Focus.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

tvad said:


> You can usually submit further documentation/communication to your credit card dispute file. I would suggest adding the communication from Focus.


Thanks. I will do that right now.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

doctormike said:


> Yes. That is exactly what they are saying.


I don't understand the shop's logic behind doing that. I mean, they do have to put time in to re-build the bike with the new components, but besides that I can't imagine it costs them a thing. Unless of course Focus is making the shop pay up some off the bill because the shop didn't set up the derailleur properly.


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## Ronsonic (Nov 11, 2004)

I had a situation with a warranty job at my shop today - I do pro audio electronics - got the client in touch with the manufacturer, customer was made happy, company has a good rep, I get paid, all good. You were right to go to them. I expect they'll be hearing from the Mfr soon.

My guess here, and it's only a guess but fits everything described, the shop munged the assembly, knows it, doesn't want anyone else to know it and doesn't want to lose money on making it right. IME it doesn't work that way.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I was talking with a guy that owned a shop until rent drove him further away from the freeway and he lost a lot of business. He was telling me that some manufacturers will not work with a shop if it has too many issues with bikes. He didn't specify which brand that was but he did say that it is possible that it is a case CYOA.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

Ronsonic said:


> I had a situation with a warranty job at my shop today - I do pro audio electronics - got the client in touch with the manufacturer, customer was made happy, company has a good rep, I get paid, all good. You were right to go to them. I expect they'll be hearing from the Mfr soon.
> 
> My guess here, and it's only a guess but fits everything described, the shop munged the assembly, knows it, doesn't want anyone else to know it and doesn't want to lose money on making it right. IME it doesn't work that way.


They were supposed to give me a written copy of the denial but instead they keep wanting to know when I am going to pick up the bike. I had already told them that I was waiting for the dispute to play out. I think they are hoping that the situation would just go away with me frustrated with Focus and believing that they did something to help me.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Wow! This makes it clear that you made the right call in proceeding to the dispute.

The shop is clearly guilty of straight out lying and misleading you. I would surmise the shop knows they screwed up (not Focus), owes you a new bike, but instead of doing the right thing they fabricated their story attempting to falsely hide behind Focus (disparaging them as a result), and then try to look like the good guys by helping you out with their paltry offer. It's a complete sham. 

If Focus gets their head around what actually happened they should lose this dealer, send you a new bike via a different dealer, along with a whole bunch of free stuff as an apology for the betrayal of customer trust in their name and brand arising from Adrenaline's conduct.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Isn't it also possible Focus is throwing Adrenaline under the bus?

Either way, though, you are right to keep pursuing this via your credit card company.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Opus51569 said:


> Isn't it also possible Focus is throwing Adrenaline under the bus?


Sure it's possible. But, if that's the case, then Adrenaline should have the record of the claim denial from Focus. The OP asked for that, and Adrenaline hasn't produced it. I would bet it doesn't exist, and that Adrenaline never contacted Focus, until maybe now. Second, why would Focus now change their tune, if indeed they considered and denied a warranty claim? Why wouldn't they just either explain why the claim was denied, or direct the customer to the dealer for further explanation? It makes no sense. While possible I find the likelihood extremely remote, and if that's the case the claim record at Adrenaline should be quite clear. Given the history represented by the OP, I am far more inclined to believe in Focus than the LBS.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

ibericb said:


> Sure it's possible. But, if that's the case, then Adrenaline should have the record of the claim denial from Focus. The OP asked for that, and Adrenaline hasn't produced it. I would bet it doesn't exist, and that Adrenaline never contacted Focus, until maybe now.


Agreed. I don't think the shop actually filed a warranty claim.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

ibericb said:


> Wow! This makes it clear that you made the right call in proceeding to the dispute.
> 
> The shop is clearly guilty of straight out lying and misleading you. I would surmise the shop knows they screwed up (not Focus), owes you a new bike, but instead of doing the right thing they fabricated their story attempting to falsely hide behind Focus (disparaging them as a result), and then try to look like the good guys by helping you out with their paltry offer. It's a complete sham.
> 
> If Focus gets their head around what actually happened they should lose this dealer, send you a new bike via a different dealer, along with a whole bunch of free stuff as an apology for the betrayal of customer trust in their name and brand arising from Adrenaline's conduct.


I would be happy if I can get a new bike from somewhere else. Either they send a new bike to a different shop in the area or put pressure on the shop to issue a refund.

Now the fun part is going to be getting my water bottle cages and garmin mount off the bike. I was going to take it off there but they said they would swap it over if they replaced the frame. I really don't care about the Garmin mount much because they are 10-15 on Amazon. The cages were an end of the season rider prize and are Zipp Course Carbon Cages. I would never buy those for myself but I earned them and really don't want the shop to have them.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> Isn't it also possible Focus is throwing Adrenaline under the bus?
> 
> Either way, though, you are right to keep pursuing this via your credit card company.



And it is also possible the bike was not attained via the correct dealer channels and the LBS is camouflaging it. Letting/attempting to have the consumer get caught out of a chair when the music stopped and not themselves.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

robt57 said:


> And it is also possible the bike was not attained via the correct dealer channels and the LBS is camouflaging it. Letting/attempting to have the consumer get caught out of a chair when the music stopped and not themselves.


I hope that is not the case. If it is, I doubt that Focus would feel an obligation to assist me if the bike shop did not follow correct channels. I obviously would have more evidence for the dispute but ultimately that would be my only route.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

doctormike said:


> I hope that is not the case. If it is, I doubt that Focus would feel an obligation to assist me if the bike shop did not follow correct channels. I obviously would have more evidence for the dispute but ultimately that would be my only route.



It will be moot once you CC get credited back, right?

I think a lot of us as a consumer in your shoes would prefer to get detached from the karma of this shop and that bike and start over...


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I haven't read about 99% of this thread but think I get the gist of it.

For what it's worth: My friend recently had a warranty claim with Focus (cracked BB) that was initiated though our LBS and it was handled quickly and better than he ever expected. Focus sent him the most expensive frame they make in place of his middle of the road one that cracked. Just further evidence that the shop is very likely the problem here for you.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I was just thinking a little more about the possibility that the shop is going to say that Focus changed their mind and threw the shop under the bus. If that were true, Focus could have simply said we denied it because we were provided different information and based on the information you provided we will contact the shop and review our decision. They justify their decision and maybe slightly shift the blame on the shops ability to provide information. They could have then resolved the issue and no one really look damaged. They really don't get anything from throwing the shop under the bus because there are only a few local Focus dealers. They would be shooting a dealer in the foot and risking losing a local dealer.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Yep. That would not be in Focus' best interest. If the shop wants to assert that, then I would ask to see a record of the initial claim filing, and the response from Focus. Short of showing me that, the shop would have zero credibility with me.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ibericb said:


> If the shop wants to assert that, then I would ask to see a record of the initial claim filing, and the response from Focus.


That's reasonable, but if the credit dispute has been filed, then why bother? 

Why not step back, take a breather, and allow the dispute process to run the course? 

Any further direct action or communication with the LBS muddies the water, IMO.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

tvad said:


> That's reasonable, but if the credit dispute has been filed, then why bother?
> 
> Why not step back, take a breather, and allow the dispute process to run the course?
> 
> Any further direct action or communication with the LBS muddies the water, IMO.


I am trying to avoid contact with the shop. I was over it until I got that email. I spoke with my CC company on Monday and they stated that the shop has 60 days to reply. If I can work something out with Focus, then I wouldn't have to wait that 60 days. If the shop responds and disagrees with my claim it can take an additional 30 days from the time of their response for the company to make a decision. 

This is what I got today: 

_Hi Michael,

Thank you for the additional information and photos. We are working directly with Adrenaline Bikes and our parent company to find the best solution for you as well as Adrenaline Bikes. We have had a very positive experience working with Adrenaline in supporting their Focus customers regarding tech and warranty matters. There is some conflicting information that has been discussed about your Focus bike and we ask that you continue to work directly with Adrenaline through the conclusion of this warranty claim. We will keep them promptly informed of options and I understand they will relay this information to you as this week progresses.

Once we hear from our parent company, we will immediately contact Adrenaline to discuss options with them further. We appreciate your cooperation and patience at this time!
Best regards,

_
It doesn't seem like they intended to throw the shop under the bus. Either way, the dispute will continue to be processed in the background. If Focus makes a deal before then, I would like to have the bike sooner than later. I am taking the position that it will probably still end up taking the dispute to resolve it, but man it would be nice to have a new bike before Christmas.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

doctormike said:


> I would like to have the bike sooner than later. I am taking the position that it will probably still end up taking the dispute to resolve it, but man it would be nice to have a new bike before Christmas.


That's understandable.

Just don't accept less than what you deserve...which is a new bike (frame).


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> ^This^ I'm always amazed by how much the local racers, especially masters, spend on crazy nice bikes only to go out and get crashed at the saturday worlds.




I happen to know a racer and he doesn't race expensive bikes. He doesn't even race carbon.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

That is the important part for me. I really don't want anything more or less than I paid for. I'm not asking or implying that I want a newer model or better components or a credit or anything. I just want what I paid for. I asked the Focus rep if he could tell me where my story and the shops story are different and this was his reply.

_Michael,

Once I hear back from our parent company, I will promptly contact Adrenaline to discuss options as we hope to reach a beneficial solution to you, Adrenaline and Focus USA.
Our experience with Adrenaline Bikes has been positive and we wish to provide them with a good solution to work with you. We are waiting for further direction from our parent company and ask for your patience as we expect a response in 24-48 hours. We are focused on a quick solution in moving forward and will advise the shop accordingly.
Best regards,

_It seems like there may be some damage control going on but at least this guy has emailed me back. I would have expected the shop to contact me and respond to the situation in some way but nothing from them. Either way, Focus is working on a solution and I am guessing that by the end of the week I am guessing the shop will have an answer from Focus. Even if we don't work it out, hopefully Focus will re-evaluate their opinion of Adrenaline Bike providing excellent tech and warranty support.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Cool! The shop owes you an answer. I'd sit tight until next week. If nothing by then, I'd reach out to the rep again for a report. In the meantime, continue with the dispute until you hear from the shop, or you get an answer from Focus satisfactory to you.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Doctor Mike,

This is certainly a tough situation you are in. It sure sounds like Focus is trying to resolve the issue. And it sure sounds like some shady stuff with your LBS.

Most businesses have a majority of satisfied customers for the very reason that things usually go right. It's when something goes wrong that you really find out what they are made of, and I think you are finding out now.

I like to see more than one side of every story. In the age of easy access to the internet where disgruntled customers can ruin a business' reputation in a heartbeat, one would think Adrenaline would make a better effort to resolve this issue.

Granted there are plenty of unreasonable customers out there who try and haggle down prices on low cost bike parts where there is very little profit margin. In an isolated situation like yours, it would make good business sense for them to eat this one in order to retain you as a future customer. My excellent bike shop knows this and as a result, they have more business than they can handle. Unfortunately for you and Adrenaline, this is not the case here.

And you may want to read some of the negative comments about Adrenaline on Yelp:

Adrenaline Bike Shop - 11 Photos - Bikes - Orange, CA - Reviews - Yelp 

And if all else fails, there is always Consumer Affairs:

DCA - State of California


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

Good call Jay. This is the email I just received from the shop.

_Hello Mike,

This is [mechanic] ([Manager] is off for the rest of today.) I just received an email from [distribution manager] from Focus. There was a miss communication between him and I which we cleared up. That being said I am personally sorry for that.
As he stated in his email to you he is current working on a better solution to this problem. His goal is to up-grade the Frame to the Izalco Max, but he is waiting to hear from the Parent Company as far as availability. Would you be willing to place the charge back on hold for the next 48 hours until we hear back from Mr. Tyler? We would really like to end this in the best way possible. If everything goes as planned you would be getting completely new Izalco Max with a new Force22 drive train. Please let me know if this is an acceptable solution.

_I would have been happy with just a new frame that I had ordered. I get that Focus wants to make it right given the "miscommunication" between them and the shop. If this can be done, then I would pick up the bike and consider it a lesson learned. If not, then it should be all the evidence I need to get the charge back processed. 

Just to be clear, I did omit the names. This is business and I don't feel like naming people at the shop is important. I'm sure that people can figure it out, but I plan to keep this about business practices not the actions of the employees.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Smells like success to me. Seems the dispute along with your email to Focus did the trick, and now the shop seems motivated to move forward with an amicable resolution. The other thing that stands out is the ownership of a "miscommunication". Good all around.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

^_Do not_ "place the charge back on hold". That sounds like complete BS. 

The charge back is clearly affecting the shop, and they're coming at you with whatever tactics they can to persuade you to cancel it. Don't do it.

The charge back is your only leverage. Use it until you have your new frame in hand.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Suggest you reply that if the new bike will get here and done faster than a new frame you'd be good with that. Then after they reply to that let them eat static until you hear back when the new bike will be under your butt. 

I would certainly not cancel/delay the CC dispute myself until your butt is on the new bike also. You could even do it from the shop when you pick up the new bike in front of them. I think you putting it on hold shows to the CC Co. too much like they are doing good, I would NOT give that to them until the fat lady spins...


They would probably not get more than a 4 word sentence out of me, ever again...


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Give them some of their own medicine. Claim your CC company won't let you put the charge back on hold and the issue must be resolved before they can change the status.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

FWIW, I agree with this. I would tell them that I would halt the dispute when there is a formal confirmation from Focus on a satisfactory resolution, including expected date for delivery, and not one moment before. Until then there is no reason to interfere with the dispute. They have 30 days from the date of notification, and it seems they still have more than ample time to resolve the issue. The ball remains in their court.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

I would first talk to my CC company. If a hold could be put on the charge back without prejudice against you under the guise that you are trying to work out an amicable solution, then that is good. You do what to make sure that you in no way surrender any rights or your ability to ultimately perfect the charge back should the shop fail to come through on their end of the deal.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

If you want to keep the bike, send the frame to Calfee.
They can determine if there is damage to the carbon and repair it if there is.
It may cost more than the $250 you are getting back, but you did get the bike for a discount to begin with. If you don't want to go through that then go the CC route to get your money back.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

jnbrown said:


> If you want to keep the bike, send the frame to Calfee. ...


You need to catch up with the recently reported progress on resolution. Read down through the thread.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

ibericb said:


> You need to catch up with the recently reported progress on resolution. Read down through the thread.


Ok got caught up, good to hear he is getting a new bike (maybe)


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

Talked to the CC company and they said that there is no reason to put a hold on the dispute. They will continue to gather information on their end to prevent a delay in the charge back if a solution is not reached. The said that many merchants will attempt to resolve the issue before the dispute is resolved so this is nothing new. They will contact me to see if we have reached a resolution before it is processed.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

damn... All I have to say is that you're the most rational person I've ever heard of in a situation like this... If this happened to me, I would have filed that dispute and then marched right into that store and taken my bottle cages and Garmin mount. I certainly wouldn't be dealing with all of the communications back and forth, other than with the CC company. They're the retailer, IMO, it is their responsibility to do all this gopher work to get a satisfactory conclusion and avoid the charge back. You gave them ample opportunity to make you whole and they blew it.... Maybe that's just the difference between the California attitude and the NY/NJ attitude.

Needless to say, it sounds like you're working towards a successful ending.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

So it has been 48 hours. I emailed the Focus rep letting him know that I had not heard from the shop. About 30 minutes later I received an email from the shop stating that Focus has decided to replace the frame but they are not sure what frame they are going to replace it with. The shop will know Monday what frame they will be sending and when it will be delivered and ready for pick up. If it is a new 2016 frame, then it would have to come all the way from Germany. All in all, it sounds like Focus wants to fix this but I can't help but suspect that they are setting up an excuse for a long turn around time because the bike is coming from Germany. 

The shop mechanic once again is the one communicating with me. The manager is MIA. Not sure if he doesn't want to potentially face being called out or if he was instructed by the owner not to have contact with me at this point.


Edited for clarity.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Only takes a week from Germany. No big deal. 

Again, don't drop the charge back until you have a frame in hand that satisfies you (i.e. is a model equal or better to what you own, and is the correct size, and has no flaws).

Consider taking the new frame and your parts to a different shop for the build.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Progress- sort of. 

Stay the course, and write-off this shop.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

So it's Monday and the next anticipated contact was due today. I received an email from the shop mechanic again stating that he was out of the shop today but wanted to make sure I knew what was going on. I am not sure what happened to the manager but at this point I don't care as long as they continue to work on the replacement. Focus sent a replacement frame today and decided to send the 2016 Focus Izalco Max Zero (their top end frame). The shop did not have a tracking number at this point but stated that the bike would be ready for pickup 24 business hours after the frame was delivered. Still haven't changed anything with the CC company but maybe I will have a new bike in a week. I am glad that the shop is finally keeping up with their own deadlines. Amazing what getting the manufacturer involved can do to customer service.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

TricrossRich said:


> I certainly wouldn't be dealing with all of the communications back and forth, other than with the CC company.



You gotta go with the path that nets you the best result. With the leverage of the CC co, the office of origin of the brand, and to a lesser degree you being a satisfied customer to broadcast an eventuality etc... I can say I would have followed the path similarly if not identically. The more effort you put toward a reasonable solution with the vendor, the more strength you have with you case with the CC co.

Glad it is, or seems to be working out. More glad for the OP it in not happening during the time of year when one would prefer to pile miles.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

doctormike said:


> Focus sent a replacement frame today and decided to send the 2016 Focus Izalco Max Zero (their top end frame). The shop did not have a tracking number at this point but stated that the bike would be ready for pickup 24 business hours after the frame was delivered. Still haven't changed anything with the CC company but maybe I will have a new bike in a week.


Once you have examined and accepted the frame, then you can drop the credit dispute.

If it were my frame, I would have a different shop build it, even if it meant spending another $100-$200 for labor.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Well at least the shop is communicating. Seems Focus got their attention.

Stay the course.


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## Ronsonic (Nov 11, 2004)

> Amazing what getting the manufacturer involved can do to customer service.


It works wonders. 

My suspicion was (is) that the shop screwed up in this case, but even when the shop is trying to do things right and the Mfr is the problem it helps when the customer calls. They just have resources the shop doesn't.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Congrats, doctormike. Once you take possession, post a celebratory photo of the new ride if you get a chance.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

tvad said:


> Once you have examined and accepted the frame, then you can drop the credit dispute.
> 
> If it were my frame, I would have a different shop build it, even if it meant spending another $100-$200 for labor.


It will definitely come home and go right into the work stand. Part of me wants to believe that they would make sure everything is perfect so that I never want to come back. Part of me suspects them to metaphorically spit in my food.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

doctormike said:


> It will definitely come home and go right into the work stand. Part of me wants to believe that they would make sure everything is perfect so that I never want to come back. Part of me suspects them to metaphorically spit in my food.



Color me naive, but I would more likely suspect the former rather than the latter.

However, I still agree with you and Tvad to not have the same shop build it up. They have shown themselves to be incompetent at best and you don't want to go through this headache ever again even if you do prevail at the end of the day.


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## crossracer01 (Apr 21, 2015)

doctormike said:


> It will definitely come home and go right into the work stand. Part of me wants to believe that they would make sure everything is perfect so that I never want to come back. Part of me suspects them to metaphorically spit in my food.


Read whole thread. Glad you are getting a new bike. My take aways. 

You are very very patient and understanding. 

You have rode and raced a lot, so the chances the bike miss shifted cause of newbie error are nil. 

I would have another shop look at the bike (not cause they spit in your food; so to speak) but because they have shown they didn't do a good job the first time. It would be well worth the peace of mind that money would buy if another shop agreed it was a ok. 

Good luck, way to handle a very unfortunate situation (not your fault) with poise and grace. Something truely lacking in today's age. 

FYI go bike shop dating now. See who
Romances you the best. Mistakes happen, it's how a shop and its people handle that is what's telling.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

Update: Bike was delivered to the shop yesterday and I was told that I could pick it up today after 4pm. I plan on going to get out and pick it up. I will be putting it in the work stand when I get home. I haven't decided if I will take it to a friend to have them look over it. If anything looks out of sorts, then I will take to my friends shop and have them go over it again. I will post a picture when I get it home.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Excellent! Hope all works out well for you.

While the shop is questionable, you gotta love Focus.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I picked up the bike from the shop. They acted like nothing had happened and kept talking about how light it was. They offered their standard tune up that are free with new bikes. I looked it over and walked out. Cancelled the dispute and will now go over everything on this bike.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)




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## BigPoser (Jan 11, 2013)

That looks awesome! Great work on Focus' part. Aside from the delay, I would imagine that you are probably pretty happy with the end result. 

So just how light is it?


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I'm glad that it is over that is for sure. The bike weighed 15.4 with stock wheels and no pedals at the shop. I checked with pedals on at home and it came in at 15.6. Not sure how accurate my scale is, it's a liggage scale from target.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Looks great.

After what you've been through, I would not ride six feet on it before someone knowledgable checks it over thoroughly.


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

I took the bike apart last night and then put everything back together. The front derailleur was not adjusted properly and the anchor bolt was loose but other than that they did fine with everything. I took it for a 28 mile ride today. I am going to move the review of the first ride to the bikes, frames, ect forum.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

doctormike said:


> I took the bike apart last night and then put everything back together. The front derailleur was not adjusted properly and the anchor bolt was loose but other than that they did fine with everything. I took it for a 28 mile ride today.


Good job.

Happy for you that everything worked out to your satisfaction.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Glad it's over. I was surprised at how fast everything fell into place towards the end. 

Nooice bike! The flat black will grow on you, and like a pair of black ski pants, won't look out of place 3-5 years down the line should you really like this bike.


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## crossracer01 (Apr 21, 2015)

And since doctor mike is now happy and satisfied. Let me be the first to tell you that direct sunlight will make your carbon bike explode. . 
Congrats and many happy miles.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Nice! I love the stealth mat black, especially with the discreet deeper black lettering.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

very nice...


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