# I have some more time on the Dogma....



## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

I will post pics of the bike soon. It is a standard Dogma, 54cm size, 54.7 TT, black 2005 graphic (with those cheap shiny stickers). I rode it briefly last fall, and have more miles on it this spring. My other bike at the moment is a Look 585. 

Here are my thoughts:
-The front-end is probably the stiffest I have ever ridden. The fork is beefy, the frame is so solid, and the thing handles like it is on rails. I love the ONDA fork: sure, it looks cool, but on the Dogma, it has Kevlar woven into the steerer. Not the lightest fork, but it sure is stiff. I like it better than the HSC 5SL on the 585: that fork is a little bit flexy, and the lightness of the front wheel takes some getting used to.
-Handling is similiar to the 585. The 585 is lighter in the front end, which makes it a little bouncier if you aren't paying attention. Overall, they feel pretty similiar in terms of quickness (riding a 585 in 53cm, 54.5TT). 
-The Dogma is relatively smooth, but I wouldn't say it is a cushy bike. It is a super-stiff ride that cancels out quite a bit of chip-seal road buzz. Cracks in the road aren't deadened much, if at all. I recommend a 32h wheelset and good tires for training. It is comparable to my old Fondriest Carb Plus in terms of smoothness, which definitely puts it near the top of the heap when it comes to comfort. I think my CAAD8 is smoother, although not as stiff out of the saddle. The 585 is MUCH smoother. 
-This has to be about the stiffest bike on the market. When accelerating up a hill, every little bit of energy is transmitted into the wheels. There is NO lateral flex on this machine. Awesome stiffness throughout-a real treat. 
-Weight with Chorus/FSA Carbon Pro TI cranks and Bontrager Race X-Lite wheels (and pedals/cages) is about 16.6lbs. Not the lightest bike, but definitely light enough for no excuses. Record and carbon wheels should drop the weight down to the mid-15's. The 585 doesn't feel as laterally stiff, but I am sure that is cancelled out by the loss of almost 1lb, making the bikes similiar as far as acceleration. 

I spoke with an inside guy at GITA, and he said that the Dogma FP is improved in the headset and at the BB in terms of stiffness, but only noticeable for big guys. He said that at my 150lbs, I probably wouldn't even notice the difference. Actually, at my weight, he recommended saving some weight and going with the Paris Carbon. Mostly, he says that the Paris Carbon will be for the lighter guys who want a responsive race bike but aren't going to overpower their bike (the tubing is still substantial) while the Dogma is for the big-chainring/power rider. Plus, the Dogma won't be quite as smooth at the Paris Carbon, he said. 

So, that is my review on the Dogma. I will keep riding it throughout the next week. So far, it is a very worthy bike (no surprises there). If I could pick out the best part of this bike, it would have to be the front-end handling!


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## jnims29 (Sep 18, 2005)

Good to hear you like your Dogma. I am planning on pulling the trigger on one sometime next season. I wouldn't consider myself a big guy, 5'10' 165lbs. However, I love to sprint and power in the big ring on the flats. No finesse hear, all power. I also want the exclusivity of owning a Dogma, I know on a group ride no one else will have one.


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

jnims29 said:


> Good to hear you like your Dogma. I am planning on pulling the trigger on one sometime next season. I wouldn't consider myself a big guy, 5'10' 165lbs. However, I love to sprint and power in the big ring on the flats. No finesse hear, all power. I also want the exclusivity of owning a Dogma, I know on a group ride no one else will have one.


I would go for it, but make sure you get it from a auth. dealer. I have heard some stories about defects, and you wouldn't want to be caught out without a warranty. The bike is just so incredible when sprinting or pushing a big gear on the flats: most bikes I have ridden seem a little flighty in these situations (especially sprinting) but the Dogma just tracks straight. From what I have read over on the WW board, the handling superiority in a Dogma is mostly due to the stiffer head tube, not the ONDA fork, as it is said the Paris Carbon is noticeably less stiff in the front end.


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## jnims29 (Sep 18, 2005)

Also, have you experienced any problems with the paint on your dogma? I am hoping some of the problems i am hearing about pinarello's paint was just a bad batch to come out of italy. Also did you get your bike direct from GITA?


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## jnims29 (Sep 18, 2005)

One more question what is the "ww board" your are talking about? I would love to get some more info on the frame.


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## wasfast (Feb 3, 2004)

jnims29 said:


> One more question what is the "ww board" your are talking about? I would love to get some more info on the frame.


The Weight Weenies Forum located here:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/


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## Ride_glendale (Sep 4, 2002)

jnims29 said:


> Good to hear you like your Dogma. I am planning on pulling the trigger on one sometime next season. I wouldn't consider myself a big guy, 5'10' 165lbs. However, I love to sprint and power in the big ring on the flats. No finesse hear, all power. I also want the exclusivity of owning a Dogma, I know on a group ride no one else will have one.


Thats the reason we get these bikes! No one else in your circle of riders have 'em!

Soon though, we'll need to go overseas to get the ones that arent being imported!

Enjoy your future Pinarello!


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

jnims29 said:


> Also, have you experienced any problems with the paint on your dogma? I am hoping some of the problems i am hearing about pinarello's paint was just a bad batch to come out of italy. Also did you get your bike direct from GITA?


Yep, paint problems on this one too. The paint is eggshell-fragile-I have owned alot of bikes over the years, and have never seen a paint job this weak. I have a feeling that when I ride it over some gravel, the down tube will be covered with chips. Pinarello may have trouble with the paint bonding to the ceramic coating. BTW, this did come from GITA: one of the last non-Gold standard Dogmas that was left.

The Weight Weenies board has lots of Dogma owners: do a search, and you will get back alot of relevant info.


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## PineNut (Jun 5, 2005)

Surprised about the paint quality comments Ive been seeing. My Dogma FP built late 2004 has had zero problems ..... wonder what has changed?


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

My Paris Carbon has just arrived. A few notes about this bike in comparison to the Dogma, and my Fondriest Carbon Lex: 

1) the Paris seems a shade lighter than the Dogma: I would say right around 1000g for size 53cm. The fork, even though it is ONDA, seems like the same fork that was on the F4:13 that I built up last summer. I personally think that the uber-stout fork on the Dogma partially gives it the incredible handling characteristics. It is definitely not the same fork on the standard Dogma: the Dogma's fork has a kevlar weave, and the carbon is much thicker (it also has a matte-dull carbon weave, the Paris' fork is shiny). The ONDA rear stays also seem beefier (thicker) on the Dogma. 

2) the Paris has some pretty thin tubing (similar to the F4:13). My Look 585 is lighter (930g) but the tubing is significantly thicker. This is probably due to the carbon BB shell on the Look: it allows them to produce a very light frame without using really thin tubing. Since the Look 565 is the same as the 585, but without the carbon BB shell, and it weighs over 1200g (which is probably average for a carbon frame) it makes sense. The Paris gets it's light weight via use of some pretty thin tubing, which is fine, as long as you take care of it. Not the best frame to be handled roughly, or for riding to the store. The Dogma's tubing also is thick for a frame of it's weight-I haven't crashed it yet (and don't plan on it) but it seems like it would hold up in a crash better than many bikes. It isn't as thin as a Scott CR1, but pretty darn close. 

3) Based on the tubing diameter, diameter of the seat and chainstays, I expect the Paris Carbon to be quite similar to the ride of my Fondreist Carbon Lex. If that is the case, then they have pulled off a great bike: the Fondriest is super-smooth, while very stiff out of the saddle, and very precise. They basically share a very similiar construction, but the BB area is bigger on the Paris (like the F4:13-a monocoque look), while the tubing is more shapely on the Fondriest (downtube flares out at the BB). 

4) The tubing on the Paris (especially the downtube) is nothing like the massive downtube on the F4:13, and I expect it to ride smoother than that bike, and be more of an all-day bike. Handling up front on the F4:13 is very precise, BTW. I expect similiar things from the Paris.

One other note on the Dogma: I was riding my converted Lemond fixed gear yesterday (steel True Temper OX Platinum) and it was nowhere as smooth as the Dogma. The Dogma has great road feel, like a good steel frame, but without the weight. The Lemond, which IS steel, was just plain harsh compared to the Dogma. Go figure.....


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## jnims29 (Sep 18, 2005)

PineNut said:


> Surprised about the paint quality comments Ive been seeing. My Dogma FP built late 2004 has had zero problems ..... wonder what has changed?


Good to hear your FP has no problems. I was about to opt for a C-50 instead, oh well glad that scare is over. Wheew!!


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## jnims29 (Sep 18, 2005)

Dawgcatching, any updates on the Dogma? I must say after hearing some good and some bad about the paint, I am a little hesitant to pull the trigger on a new Dogma FP. It seems that being one of the most expensive frames out there, it should be flawless. Oh well, I guess these decisions are also add to the price of exclusivity.


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

jnims29 said:


> Dawgcatching, any updates on the Dogma? I must say after hearing some good and some bad about the paint, I am a little hesitant to pull the trigger on a new Dogma FP. It seems that being one of the most expensive frames out there, it should be flawless. Oh well, I guess these decisions are also add to the price of exclusivity.


The FP paint is more durable, I have been told. I just perhaps got a bad frame. I touched it up and it looks OK, but I was still a little bummed.


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## jnims29 (Sep 18, 2005)

Could you post pics of your dogma? Not too many people seem to have one.


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

jnims29 said:


> Could you post pics of your dogma? Not too many people seem to have one.


I can post pics of the frame: it is currently stripped, as I am waiting on another groupset for it. It is probably the second-best looking frame I have owned (I still love the white of my 585, but the Dogma is a bit more muscular in appearance).


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## jnims29 (Sep 18, 2005)

Please post a pic as soon as you as your new groupo comes in.


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## ferraripete (Dec 19, 2006)

standard and fp dogmas that i have showing no paint issues. i am new to this board and was very curious to hear of the paint problems.

i am curious of the process to properly paint these frames when the day comes that they need to be freshened. the mag will likely need to be primed w/ some exotic stuff in order to prevent corrosion.


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