# Is EPS Zabel(PRZA) still going on in 2010?



## donevan

Since 2010 colors seems falling short of my expectation, I'm considering getting one EPS in PRZA color.
But I wonder if colnago provide that color in 2010.
I've heard there would be other classical color added in some retail shops, but not sure of it.
Anyone got information?

regards.


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## Dinosaur

Found this 

http://www.bikerumor.com/?s=2010+eps&x=20&y=11

That link did not take you directly to Colnago. Type in 2010 Colnago EPS in search function on right...shows paint options for 2010. Wish I had your problem.


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## The_Kraken

*PR paint*



donevan said:


> Since 2010 colors seems falling short of my expectation, I'm considering getting one EPS in PRZA color.
> But I wonder if colnago provide that color in 2010.
> I've heard there would be other classical color added in some retail shops, but not sure of it.
> Anyone got information?
> 
> regards.


Yes, PRZA continues for 2010. I, in fact, am about to receive one in custom geometry. And some $$ for the custom.

The PR series is essentially the traditional paint scheme. You have PRZA where obviously the ZA stands for Zabel. You have PR82, where I will assume that the 82 is in reference to the year 1982 in which Beppe Saronni won the World Championships at Goodwood.

Now there is also a new paint scheme Pista Palace has created called PR99 that will be unveiled before X-Mas. This will follow the traditional theme of the PR series of paint, but will be a totally new paint. Hmmm....wonder what that will look like.......


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## fabsroman

The_Kraken said:


> Yes, PRZA continues for 2010. I, in fact, am about to receive one in custom geometry. And some $$ for the custom.
> 
> The PR series is essentially the traditional paint scheme. You have PRZA where obviously the ZA stands for Zabel. You have PR82, where I will assume that the 82 is in reference to the year 1982 in which Beppe Saronni won the World Championships at Goodwood.
> 
> Now there is also a new paint scheme Pista Palace has created called PR99 that will be unveiled before X-Mas. This will follow the traditional theme of the PR series of paint, but will be a totally new paint. Hmmm....wonder what that will look like.......


Yeah, I'm wondering too and I hate being kept in suspense. LOL


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## nicensleazy




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## koyaanisqatsi

*No 2010 EPS Zabel*

Sorry donevan. The answer is "no". Wrench Science shows the available colors. The Matt Black (MTBK) is a hot seller I'm told and I ordered one tonight. But delivery will be in Feb. 2010 at the earliest. OK for me, because the riding season here in Western New York State is near its end. Other 2010 colors were not to my liking. You might still be able to find a 2009 EPS Zabel someplace...that's what I wanted to order thru WS, but I waited too long. Of course, I really, really want a Seronni (Red) EPS, but I can only dream. Most new Colnago (and other bike manufacturer) paint schemes leave me cold...to say the least. Good luck. -k.



donevan said:


> Since 2010 colors seems falling short of my expectation, I'm considering getting one EPS in PRZA color.
> But I wonder if colnago provide that color in 2010.
> I've heard there would be other classical color added in some retail shops, but not sure of it.
> Anyone got information?
> 
> regards.


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## JeremyP

PRZA for the EPS was always a custom order, and of course would not be available online.


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## mtbbmet

Just because WS can't/won't get you one, doesn't mean that someon else can't.


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## The_Kraken

*In stock*

Yeah, as mentioned above, PRZA IS available for 2010. No upcharge on the paint. And it is by custom order.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Not much help*

The question was "Is EPS Zabel(PRZA) still going on in 2010?" The answer is "No". The EPS PRZA was offered by Colnago as one of their standard colors in 2009. It is not offered as a standard color for 2010, according to the Colnago Web site. Custom colors are not offered either according to the Colnago Web site. So I stand by my statement. The Saronni is not offered either, but Pista Palace got "12 and only 12" EPS Saronni for 2010.

OK, WS won't get me a PRZA. But you did not mention who will get me or anyone else the PRZA EPS. Are we talking about a gray market paint job or a Colnago factory paint job?



The_Kraken said:


> Yeah, as mentioned above, PRZA IS available for 2010. No upcharge on the paint. And it is by custom order.


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## The_Kraken

*Dude!*



koyaanisqatsi said:


> OK, WS won't get me a PRZA. But you did not mention who will get me or anyone else the PRZA EPS. Are we talking about a gray market paint job or a Colnago factory paint job?


Mr. K.....Whether on not PRZA was a standard color for 2009 is not the question here. I believe you question is, can you get an EPS in PRZA presently. The answer is: YES!! Like I said above, I just ordered one for myself. (I plan on building this up as a Chargers themed bike in blue and gold!). Any frame that we sell is mummy wrapped and straight from Cambiago. Full warranty. Send me a message if you need me to assist you. The bottom line is that it is available.

With regards to the PRZA, I just got one in steel that I'm building up. It looks so damn amazing. I don't know the numbers on how many PRZA's have been made, but I know that it is shockingly low. The metallic/opaque shine to the baby blue is awesome.


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## mtbbmet

koyaanisqatsi said:


> The question was "Is EPS Zabel(PRZA) still going on in 2010?" The answer is "No". The EPS PRZA was offered by Colnago as one of their standard colors in 2009. It is not offered as a standard color for 2010, according to the Colnago Web site. Custom colors are not offered either according to the Colnago Web site. So I stand by my statement. The Saronni is not offered either, but Pista Palace got "12 and only 12" EPS Saronni for 2010.
> 
> OK, WS won't get me a PRZA. But you did not mention who will get me or anyone else the PRZA EPS. Are we talking about a gray market paint job or a Colnago factory paint job?


Some people just can't do anything for themselves. Have you talked to an authorized dealer? I'm not talking about an online "what we have in stock is what you can get" dealer. A real bike shop. Start there, or call Pista Palace if there is no dealer near you. This post angers me. Let me put it simply for you. Any authorized dealer, even WS if the WANTED to, can get you an PRZA. It is a matter of them wanting to. And based on this post, and your attitude, I would imagine it would be hard for anyone to want to help you.
Call the Kraken, he seems like decent folk.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Then you're working with Pista Palace?*

As I said, and I admit I was feeling a bit prickly when I replied a couple days ago, no bike shop I know of has a 2010 EPS PRZA or claims to be able to order one. Even the Colnago Web site does not mention "custom" colors being available. I may be putting the pieces of the puzzle together completely wrong. But PP is in San Diego, you are apparently a San Diego Charger fan which suggests that you may be from San Diego, PP received "12 and only 12" 2010 EPS Saronni frames (long gone I assume, but PP may actually may be getting more of these EPS Saronni frames) when no one else could get them (that I know of), you can order a 2010 EPS PRZA frame while no else can do so (that I know of)...etc. You get my drift. PP seems mainly to be a Colnago dealer and may have a unique relationship with Colnago. That's all OK and I may be wrong.

If you're telling me that only one shop (PP) can get these 2010 EPS PRZA or PR82 frames and that they are available in limited quantities, then they are not available for 2010 and I stand by my previous assertion that the PRZA is not available. If you're telling me that ANY dealer for Colnago can get these frames by custom order, then I withdraw my assertion and will be holding the Wrench Science salesperson's feet to the fire to get the PR82, or the PRZA.



The_Kraken said:


> Mr. K.....Whether on not PRZA was a standard color for 2009 is not the question here. I believe you question is, can you get an EPS in PRZA presently. The answer is: YES!! Like I said above, I just ordered one for myself. (I plan on building this up as a Chargers themed bike in blue and gold!). Any frame that we sell is mummy wrapped and straight from Cambiago. Full warranty. Send me a message if you need me to assist you. The bottom line is that it is available.
> 
> With regards to the PRZA, I just got one in steel that I'm building up. It looks so damn amazing. I don't know the numbers on how many PRZA's have been made, but I know that it is shockingly low. The metallic/opaque shine to the baby blue is awesome.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*mtbbmet: Yes, I talked to an authorized dealer.*

mtbbmet:

The WS salesperson I talked to had talked directly to the U.S. rep. for Colnago. The salesperson seemed knowledgeable and, if I remember correctly, said he had breakfast with the U.S. rep. at the recent Interbike. Maybe WS just doesn't have the right information, or maybe they don't want to go through the small amount of extra effort for the custom paint job. The Kraken suggested that I email him if I needed help for a PRZA frame...he's apparently a dealer. Pista Palace? That's OK, but if these frames are available through any dealer, they would know it and would (I think) be very happy to help get a PRZA or even PR82 frame. We're in a recession, so I doubt if bikes sales are so good that dealers will risk passing up a sale.

Now, I ask that don't call me unreasonable. You don't know me. And I don't want to get into a pXXXing contest with you, and that seems to be what you're looking for. No thanks. I call things as I see them, but I'm sometimes wrong. How about you? Wrong sometimes? I just want to be treated fairly as a customer. That's all most people want. I don't want the bike purchasing experience to become like the car purchasing experience. Too late for that, I guess. Pista Palace says about the 2010 EPS Saronni frames they received: "So much did I love the paint scheme that I had 12 made. 12 and only 12 will ever be made. These framesets are exclusively sold through Pista Palace." But PP is getting more PR82s (rumor mill). Is Pista Palace getting favored treatment as a Colnago dealer? I have no idea. But I'll be finding out as soon as I can contact WS and other Internet dealers. It's too late for me. I have ordered an 2010 EPS (MTBK) from WS...their 2009 EPS PRZAs were gone. I ordered as I did based on the best information that I had at the time, and that information has not changed. Maybe they can change the order for me, maybe not. I may be able to cancel the WS order, but something tells me that is just plain wrong. Is that reasonable enough for you?

Cheers,
k.



mtbbmet said:


> Some people just can't do anything for themselves. Have you talked to an authorized dealer? I'm not talking about an online "what we have in stock is what you can get" dealer. A real bike shop. Start there, or call Pista Palace if there is no dealer near you. This post angers me. Let me put it simply for you. Any authorized dealer, even WS if the WANTED to, can get you an PRZA. It is a matter of them wanting to. And based on this post, and your attitude, I would imagine it would be hard for anyone to want to help you.
> Call the Kraken, he seems like decent folk.


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## fabsroman

koyaanisqatsi said:


> As I said, and I admit I was feeling a bit prickly when I replied a couple days ago, no bike shop I know of has a 2010 EPS PRZA or claims to be able to order one. Even the Colnago Web site does not mention "custom" colors being available. I may be putting the pieces of the puzzle together completely wrong. But PP is in San Diego, you are apparently a San Diego Charger fan which suggests that you may be from San Diego, PP received "12 and only 12" 2010 EPS Saronni frames (long gone I assume, but PP may actually may be getting more of these EPS Saronni frames) when no one else could get them (that I know of), you can order a 2010 EPS PRZA frame while no else can do so (that I know of)...etc. You get my drift. PP seems mainly to be a Colnago dealer and may have a unique relationship with Colnago. That's all OK and I may be wrong.
> 
> If you're telling me that only one shop (PP) can get these 2010 EPS PRZA or PR82 frames and that they are available in limited quantities, then they are not available for 2010 and I stand by my previous assertion that the PRZA is not available. If you're telling me that ANY dealer for Colnago can get these frames by custom order, then I withdraw my assertion and will be holding the Wrench Science salesperson's feet to the fire to get the PR82, or the PRZA.


Sometimes, it is all about who you know and the connections they have. I know a couple of people that deal very closely with Colnago and can sometimes get things from Cambiago that other authorized dealers cannot. If I cannot get what I want from them, you can bet I will be talking to Pista Palace about flying out there and picking up the frame I want. God only knows when I will be in the market for another Colnago frame, but I have my preferred Colnago vendors saved in my Favorites list.


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## The_Kraken

*Pr99*



koyaanisqatsi said:


> . The Kraken suggested that I email him if I needed help for a PRZA frame...he's apparently a dealer. Pista Palace? That's OK, but if these frames are available through any dealer, they would know it and would (I think) be very happy to help get a PRZA or even PR82 frame. We're in a recession, so I doubt if bikes sales are so good that dealers will risk passing up a sale.
> 
> Pista Palace says about the 2010 EPS Saronni frames they received: "So much did I love the paint scheme that I had 12 made. 12 and only 12 will ever be made. These framesets are exclusively sold through Pista Palace." But PP is getting more PR82s (rumor mill). Is Pista Palace getting favored treatment as a Colnago dealer? I have no idea. But I'll be finding out as soon as I can contact WS and other Internet dealers. It's too late for me. I have ordered an 2010 EPS (MTBK) from WS...their 2009 EPS PRZAs were gone. I ordered as I did based on the best information that I had at the time, and that information has not changed. Maybe they can change the order for me, maybe not. I may be able to cancel the WS order, but something tells me that is just plain wrong. Is that reasonable enough for you?


K. What size are you looking for in PRZA? I am the owner of Pista Palace, btw. Yep. Here in San Diego. Can't believe it dipped below 70 degrees today! It better not be cold on Sunday, I'm going to the game.

In any case, we do have the exclusive on PR82 through 2010. I decided to do more than 12 because the demand was a bit more than I expected. So you won't be able to get a PR82 anywhere else. It won't cost you any extra, though. If an authorized Colnago dealer is telling you they can't order you a PRZA EPS then perhaps they just aren't as familiar with the company as other dealers. Or maybe they are trying to get you to purchase something they already have on order. The latter would be my guess.

Now I hope this doesn't get me into deep doo doo, but I am attaching our latest PR99 design. It is a work in progress, but I will have the first ones before X-Mas. I had some pics posted on our facebook anyways, so it is public knowledge. And I think its cool to let everyone see the start to finish process of making the greatest Colnago, the EPS.


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## donevan

My Gosh!!!!! Such a mouthwatering!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where can I see more picture, Kraken? Please give me the address!!!!!!

And one more question. Actually you haven't anwered my question yet. 
As far as I know, WS are not goin' to provide PRZA in 2010. 
Can I get one EPS frame in PRZA color *in 2010* (_not present!_) through Pista Palace?

Since PRZA is only one paint scheme I would cost my soul to get one, I'll lose no second to buy it when my military service ends in July, 2010. 

One more thing I'm afraid of is that if it is to be provided in only a limited quantity as it was in PR82 color, my size(52 traditional) could be sold out. Then, can I order one privately? In that case, how is the cost and necessary time? I see many users in this forum are interested in Genuine custom paint job by Colnago. So your detailed answer will be great help.

Regards.


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## apex

*Pr99*

I think that the new paint scheme is fantastic. The only thing I would change would be the addition of the little cyclist on the top tube.

Apex

View attachment 184310


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Thanks, fabsroman*



fabsroman said:


> Sometimes, it is all about who you know and the connections they have. I know a couple of people that deal very closely with Colnago and can sometimes get things from Cambiago that other authorized dealers cannot. If I cannot get what I want from them, you can bet I will be talking to Pista Palace about flying out there and picking up the frame I want. God only knows when I will be in the market for another Colnago frame, but I have my preferred Colnago vendors saved in my Favorites list.



Thanks for the thoughtful input fabsroman. I've had reservations about working with Internet bike dealers, simply because I prefer to deal face-to-face with the salesman. Sure, that doesn't help much when buying a car. But still... Then there's issues of fit, possible problems with the bike that require major or minor mechanical repair. But as I've said before, I don't live very close to a Colnago dealer.


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## fabsroman

The_Kraken said:


> K. What size are you looking for in PRZA? I am the owner of Pista Palace, btw. Yep. Here in San Diego. Can't believe it dipped below 70 degrees today! It better not be cold on Sunday, I'm going to the game.
> 
> In any case, we do have the exclusive on PR82 through 2010. I decided to do more than 12 because the demand was a bit more than I expected. So you won't be able to get a PR82 anywhere else. It won't cost you any extra, though. If an authorized Colnago dealer is telling you they can't order you a PRZA EPS then perhaps they just aren't as familiar with the company as other dealers. Or maybe they are trying to get you to purchase something they already have on order. The latter would be my guess.
> 
> Now I hope this doesn't get me into deep doo doo, but I am attaching our latest PR99 design. It is a work in progress, but I will have the first ones before X-Mas. I had some pics posted on our facebook anyways, so it is public knowledge. And I think its cool to let everyone see the start to finish process of making the greatest Colnago, the EPS.


Nice looking paint scheme. However, I still prefer the PR82. I just have a soft spot in me for red. LOL


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Thanks The_Kraken*

I guessed that you were working for, in some capacity, or owned/managed Pista Palace. Sometimes, I guess correctly. I suppose mtbbmet should be forgiven for not understanding that I actually believed the WS salesperson when he said that the 2010 EPS PRZA is not available; mtbbmet clearly wasn't thinking. I think probably that the WS salesperson just didn't know that the PRZA was available. Why else would he sell me the MTBK frame, which is also custom? He was at Interbike, met with the Colnago U.S. rep. I don't understand the bike business I guess...I don't understand why Colnago and/or Colnago dealers don't advertise the fact that the 2010 EPS PRZA is available. Like the person who started this thread, the 2010 EPS colors don't appeal to me. Some of the 2009 EPS colors looked embarrassingly cartoonish. Oh well. Even Colnago can make mistakes.

BTW, it dropped to about 33˚F here in Western New York (near Buffalo) on Friday. Not too bad for this time of year but below average. If not for the snow and rain, it was bikeable weather.

I thought the 12 PR82 EPS frames would all go in a heartbeat when I first heard about them and saw the images at Pista Palace. You can probably sell all you can get, within reason of course. I would expect the PRZA to sell quickly as well.

I appreciate your offer to help on the EPS PRZA. But I've placed my order with WS for a 2010 EPS MTBK. I'll hold their feet to the fire for a PRZA now that I KNOW that is available. But I don't think it's appropriate to cancel the order with them unless they deliberately misled me. I have my own sense of ethics...they don't work well in the American business world, but I can look at myself in the mirror. No, I'm not questioning your ethics. If the WS order does fall through, I'll be in touch.

Thanks,
k.



The_Kraken said:


> K. What size are you looking for in PRZA? I am the owner of Pista Palace, btw. Yep. Here in San Diego. Can't believe it dipped below 70 degrees today! It better not be cold on Sunday, I'm going to the game.
> 
> In any case, we do have the exclusive on PR82 through 2010. I decided to do more than 12 because the demand was a bit more than I expected. So you won't be able to get a PR82 anywhere else. It won't cost you any extra, though. If an authorized Colnago dealer is telling you they can't order you a PRZA EPS then perhaps they just aren't as familiar with the company as other dealers. Or maybe they are trying to get you to purchase something they already have on order. The latter would be my guess.
> 
> Now I hope this doesn't get me into deep doo doo, but I am attaching our latest PR99 design. It is a work in progress, but I will have the first ones before X-Mas. I had some pics posted on our facebook anyways, so it is public knowledge. And I think its cool to let everyone see the start to finish process of making the greatest Colnago, the EPS.


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## fabsroman

apex said:


> I think that the new paint scheme is fantastic. The only thing I would change would be the addition of the little cyclist on the top tube.
> 
> Apex
> 
> View attachment 184310


I would actually leave the little cyclist off of the paint scheme because it looks more like the classic Colnago PR82, PRZA, and Molteni schemes that did not have the little cyclist on the top tube on them in the first place.


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## Jbartmc

I agree with fabsroman . . . The cyclist on the top tube is not my preference. Simple and clean is the way to go.


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## The_Kraken

*Little Cyclist Dude*

So to keep the lines clean we didn't want the cool cyclist guy on the top tube. And actually, and I don't know if this is true or not, Cambiago said they couldn't put the guy on the EPS. I don't know why. I do have an EPS in the OOF arriving this week. Pictures will be up for sure.

Another interesting thing is that if you notice, PR82, PRZA, and our PR99 are not available in the C50. This isn't because it isn't desired but because the Colnago decals I guess just don't wrap around the C50 tubes properly. I find that strange since the MXL in steel uses the decals. Oh well, who knows. It does seem reasonable, though, that certain aesthetics wont work on certain tube shapes.

Mr. K, I hear you on the 2010 offerings. It is kind of why we will continue to do simple and traditional looking paints. I'm thinking our next will be an emerald green in the PR scheme. And I believe why Cambiago has went with the MTBK is because of the great reaction to it. There is an upcharge for it. Less costs more!  And a final note about PRZA is that it is, in fact, the only paint scheme not listed in the 2010 catalog that is available as an option. How is anyone supposed to know about it? You got me. Maybe because it is available in steel like our PR82? And does that mean that you can get a Molteni in an EPS? Hmmm.....Pumpkinhead.

You gotta figure that over the decades of coming up with different paint that some years are better than others and you can never please everyone. But at least Colnago has a whole palette of offerings each year. My favorites include ST09, PR82, PRZA, AMOR, and TWBK. I was surprised the gold didn't catch on. It is so damn amazing in person. Less than a few dozen were even made. I guess I just love airbrushing and classic paint.

Oh yeah, our PR99 will be available in steel! We are doing Master X-Light and even Master Pista. Come on guys, you gotta at least step up and get a super cool PR99 Master Pista. Just to put on the wall or something. All white with a steel fork and silver campy. YES.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*The New Paint Schemes*

Some of the new 2010 paint schemes aren't terribly bad, but they just have no appeal for me. Of the 2009 paint schemes for the EPS, other than the PRZA, only the AMOR looked acceptable. I really just want to avoid the artwork, which must cost more to produce. It is a mystery why the MTBK costs more than the other paint schemes. I'm afraid I couldn't accept a white frame either--that should shock no one. Don't like white components either. Or white cars. I don't think Colnago does themselves any favor by not providing information on all available paint schemes and colors; I suppose that the decision to make some of them available could be last-minute decisions. What paint schemes and colors might become available during the course of the 2010 model year? I'm not going to worry about that. The emerald green frame that you mention should look great and sell well. I selected solid "Emerald Bliss" paint (what I call dark or medium green) with gold lettering and mostly black components for my custom Lynskey R330 titanium. It looks great. In my geographic area, very few people will even know what I have in my Lynskey and Colnago EPS (MTBK _or_ PRZA) and that's the way I want it. Anyone with sticky fingers will probably make off with my bright red Schwinn Circuit, a quite capable bike, but not a high end bike. Yes, there is some method to my madness. How to pry a PRZA out of WS is the only thing left to be determined. I may yet buy an Eddy Merckx Classic (scandium). My Xmas presents.

Take care,
k.



The_Kraken said:


> Mr. K, I hear you on the 2010 offerings. It is kind of why we will continue to do simple and traditional looking paints. I'm thinking our next will be an emerald green in the PR scheme. And I believe why Cambiago has went with the MTBK is because of the great reaction to it. There is an upcharge for it. Less costs more!  And a final note about PRZA is that it is, in fact, the only paint scheme not listed in the 2010 catalog that is available as an option. How is anyone supposed to know about it? You got me. Maybe because it is available in steel like our PR82? And does that mean that you can get a Molteni in an EPS? Hmmm.....Pumpkinhead.
> 
> You gotta figure that over the decades of coming up with different paint that some years are better than others and you can never please everyone. But at least Colnago has a whole palette of offerings each year. My favorites include ST09, PR82, PRZA, AMOR, and TWBK. I was surprised the gold didn't catch on. It is so damn amazing in person. Less than a few dozen were even made. I guess I just love airbrushing and classic paint.
> 
> Oh yeah, our PR99 will be available in steel! We are doing Master X-Light and even Master Pista. Come on guys, you gotta at least step up and get a super cool PR99 Master Pista. Just to put on the wall or something. All white with a steel fork and silver campy. YES.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*My Final Word on The 2010 EPS & PRZA*

The_Kraken seems to know what he's taking about when it comes to available colors for the 2010 EPS. I would have preferred that Wrench Science had provided the PRZA option to me. And WS now acts as if I don't exist since the sale has been made. But the MTBK color actually looks good _to me_. [A large image can be seen at WS.] In some perverse way, the MTBK may actually stand out in a crowd. And the MTBK results in a weight savings of...0.09 g according to WS!

Thanks to The_Kraken and fabsroman for clarifying the 2010 EPS color issues.


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## fabsroman

koyaanisqatsi said:


> The_Kraken seems to know what he's taking about when it comes to available colors for the 2010 EPS. I would have preferred that Wrench Science had provided the PRZA option to me. And WS now acts as if I don't exist since the sale has been made. But the MTBK color actually looks good _to me_. [A large image can be seen at WS.] In some perverse way, the MTBK may actually stand out in a crowd. And the MTBK results in a weight savings of...0.09 g according to WS!
> 
> Thanks to The_Kraken and fabsroman for clarifying the 2010 EPS color issues.


A weight savings of .09 grams. That is quite hilarious.

You are welcome. I always try to help out whomever I can, especially fellow Colnago aficionados.


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## meccio

a Colnago person wrote in an Italian website that the MTBK option should imply a saving in the region of 40-60 grams. So, Koyaanisqatsi, your bike is MUCH lighter than any PRZA. You will kill any PRZA owner uphill


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Thanks meccio*

I had a feeling that the 0.09 g weight savings was a misprint by Wrench Science. They probably meant lbs, not grams, and 0.09 lbs comes equals about 41 g. I just heard from WS and will add their comments on the 2010 EPS color issue in another post.



meccio said:


> a Colnago person wrote in an Italian website that the MTBK option should imply a saving in the region of 40-60 grams. So, Koyaanisqatsi, your bike is MUCH lighter than any PRZA. You will kill any PRZA owner uphill


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## koyaanisqatsi

*OK. The last post was not my final word/*

I've received an email from Wrench Science. Basically they respond to my questions as follows. They claim they can't get the PRZA w/o a 25 unit buy-in:

1a) What colors do the 2010 EPS frames actually come in?

[Wrench Science]
Everything I have listed on our website is what is currently available for 2010. I don't want to come across as arrogant but I do speak to Colnago on a daily basis and I am certain of this.

1b)What are the available custom colors?

[Wrench Science]
There are no custom color options. Now if you were willing to pay a considerable amount more I could get something done for you but it would be special and Colnago would charge accordingly. Would you like me to pursue this?

2) What do "custom" color bikes cost? [Saronni and Zabel are hardly custom colors]

[Wrench Science]
The only way Colnago has done this in the past is if we order 25 units. They will not do them in single units.

3) Does Colnago provide different color frames to different dealers?

[Wrench Science]
If a dealer is willing to purchase 25 units Colnago is willing to paint any of their old colors.

4) If the answer to (3) is "yes", I'd say that this is a dangerous game to play. It makes life difficult for dealers and end-purchasers alike. Colnago needs to level the playing field.

[Wrench Science]
Yes you are right. This is why he makes the buy in so high, e.g. 25 units.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the story from Wrench Science. Is it true? I believe that Wrench Science believes that it's true. But I'm staying with the MTBK color.

k.


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## The_Kraken

*Our final word*

Mr. K.,

So it seems as though you are confident with the answers to your questions. Perhaps it is better to leave it at that. One thing to know is that each and every dealer has a unique relationship with Colnago. You can see that both Pista Palace and R&A continue to produce and surprise everyone with custom and new designs. This is a good thing.

On-line retailers typically don't stock many framesets. They list every catalog color and size but what they actually have in stock is a totally different story.

As you can see from the post I made yesterday you see a C50 in ST01. While this is not shocking, it is proof that any paint scheme can still be done to any frameset. And this is a FACT. Monday I will be receiving an EPS in OOF. Was/Is it available from any Colnago dealer in the world? I dunno. I simply ordered one and Cambiago made it.

The bottom line is this: If you want something, I would exhaust your resources until you determine a final answer. One dealer will definitely not be able to answer all your questions and needs. Sure, all the dealers have to compete against each but in the end the dealer that possesses the most knowledge and customer service and support will float to the top. Good luck.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*I'm not really confident...*

in the answers provided by WS. And it doesn't matter whether I believe them or not...their position on the issue is clear. I do believe that Wrench Science believes them, which suggests that they _maybe_ don't have as tight a relationship with Colnago as Pista Palace or maybe even R&A Cycles. Otherwise, I'd think that they could order custom color bikes, just as you can. Go to R&A Cycles Web site and check their 2010 EPS colors; they are completely different than the 2010 EPS colors at Wrench Science. I can't explain this, and I no longer try. But it seems like an odd way for Colnago to do business. The paint schemes offered at Wrench Science seem to be in line with what is offered in the Colnago catalogue.

I'm probably finding out some things that most other Colnago buyers don't know either. What you can get as far as Colnago paint schemes seems to depend on where you shop. I've placed my order. Now, I'm just trying to fill in the information gaps on what I could have had and why. If you want to email WS and tell them that they are wrong about the custom colors, that's fine with me. [Tim Medina Email: [email protected]] But it's too late for me, and I don't see how it would benefit you. Caveat emptor! The EPS MTBK will do just fine if it rides as well as people claim.

k.


----------



## fabsroman

koyaanisqatsi said:


> in the answers provided by WS. And it doesn't matter whether I believe them or not...their position on the issue is clear. I do believe that Wrench Science believes them, which suggests that they _maybe_ don't have as tight a relationship with Colnago as Pista Palace or maybe even R&A Cycles. Otherwise, I'd think that they could order custom color bikes, just as you can. Go to R&A Cycles Web site and check their 2010 EPS colors; they are completely different than the 2010 EPS colors at Wrench Science. I can't explain this, and I no longer try. But it seems like an odd way for Colnago to do business. The paint schemes offered at Wrench Science seem to be in line with what is offered in the Colnago catalogue.
> 
> I'm probably finding out some things that most other Colnago buyers don't know either. What you can get as far as Colnago paint schemes seems to depend on where you shop. I've placed my order. Now, I'm just trying to fill in the information gaps on what I could have had and why. If you want to email WS and tell them that they are wrong about the custom colors, that's fine with me. [Tim Medina Email: [email protected]] But it's too late for me, and I don't see how it would benefit you. Caveat emptor! The EPS MTBK will do just fine if it rides as well as people claim.
> 
> k.


If you really want the Zabel paint scheme, I would pursue that paint scheme and look into canceling the order from WS. This is a bike that you will be riding for years. Every time you get on it, you shouldn't be thinking "I wish I had gotten it in Zabel blue". Then entire reason I bought my C50 when I did (i.e., September 2008), is because the 2009 color schemes were horrible and I really wanted ST01. Knowing what I know now, I will not rush into a frame purchase just because the current schemes suck (i.e., I can get a frame painted in older color schemes without a problem).

As far as how Colnago does business, I will agree with you. It probably isn't a good thing, and it even looks like Mike at Maestro in England is starting to shy away from Colnago. Kind of a shame.


----------



## chuckice

Don't settle on a $6k frame.


----------



## BikeNerd2453

I'm still in awe of the confusion here. Why doesn't Colnago America step in to clarify? Or do they think that staying out of it they can seem blameless?

It seems like a simple yes or no answer.


----------



## mtbbmet

BikeNerd2453 said:


> I'm still in awe of the confusion here. Why doesn't Colnago America step in to clarify? Or do they think that staying out of it they can seem blameless?
> 
> It seems like a simple yes or no answer.


There are a few issues and changes at Colnago America right now.


----------



## BikeNerd2453

mtbbmet said:


> There are a few issues and changes at Colnago America right now.


I'm quite aware of all the changes going on there, but it's still not an excuse.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*chuckice, good point.*



chuckice said:


> Don't settle on a $6k frame.


The MTBK I've ordered is not visually offensive, at least not to me and in the large image at Wrench Science. But I was not offered the option of the PRZA frame. If one online dealer can obtain a 2010 EPS PRZA frame just by ordering one from Colnago, then another should be able to as well. I'm talking about authorized dealers, of course. If this is not the case, then maybe I should cancel my Colnago order and go with the Pinarello Dogma 60.1 Super Record 11 Bike - 2010. I'll be on the phone to WS tonight to try to get a final answer. But it appears that Colnago is playing some games with their dealers, not leveling the playing field. Customers are the ultimate losers...maybe Colnago will be the ultimate loser.


----------



## The_Kraken

*Well..*

Just send me an email or something next time. It doesn't hurt to ask. And you know what is going to look super duper cool? The ST01 EPS coming. Oh yeah, super awesome.


----------



## fabsroman

koyaanisqatsi said:


> The MTBK I've ordered is not visually offensive, at least not to me and in the large image at Wrench Science. But I was not offered the option of the PRZA frame. If one online dealer can obtain a 2010 EPS PRZA frame just by ordering one from Colnago, then another should be able to as well. I'm talking about authorized dealers, of course. If this is not the case, then maybe I should cancel my Colnago order and go with the Pinarello Dogma 60.1 Super Record 11 Bike - 2010. I'll be on the phone to WS tonight to try to get a final answer. But it appears that Colnago is playing some games with their dealers, not leveling the playing field. Customers are the ultimate losers...maybe Colnago will be the ultimate loser.


I have several issues with Colnago distribution, but I still like the fact that I can get frames cheaper in Europe versus the US. If it wasn't for the European prices, I probably never would have bought a Colnago in the first place. How it can be that much cheaper in Europe versus the US is astounding, but I will live with it.

I can also understand why Colnago will treat different retailers differently. If one retailer is selling 1,000+ frames a year and almost exclusively sells Colnago and the other is selling 20 different brands and 2 Colnago frames a year, why should Colnago bend over backwards for the dealer that doesn't try to sell its product. Things are never black and white.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*2010 Colnago EPS PRZA Problem Solved*

Yes, Wrench Science was able to get one...after several phone calls and with the information I provided. Any authorized dealer can get a PRZA EPS, but they may have to fight for it. Wrench Science argued in favor of my staying with a Colnago, but...

In the meantime, I decided that I wanted control over my purchase and changed my order to a Pinarello Dogma Black/Red/Silver, Campagnolo Super Record and Pinarello "branded" components. No Colnago under my Xmas tree this year. This may be a Pyrric victory or no victory at all for me. But this bike purchase had evolved into a new car buying purchase wrt to the amount of aggravation caused. And Colnago seemed to be in control. Colnago needs to level the playing field for their dealers.


----------



## fabsroman

koyaanisqatsi said:


> Yes, Wrench Science was able to get one...after several phone calls and with the information I provided. Any authorized dealer can get a PRZA EPS, but they may have to fight for it. Wrench Science argued in favor of my staying with a Colnago, but...
> 
> In the meantime, I decided that I wanted control over my purchase and changed my order to a Pinarello Dogma Black/Red/Silver, Campagnolo Super Record and Pinarello "branded" components. No Colnago under my Xmas tree this year. This may be a Pyrric victory or no victory at all for me. But this bike purchase had evolved into a new car buying purchase wrt to the amount of aggravation caused. And Colnago seemed to be in control. Colnago needs to level the playing field for their dealers.


I'll almost be jealous because I think the Pinarello Dogma in Black/Red/Silver is awesome looking. Even designed said frame on Pinarello's website and then decided that I just don't need to spend the money on another bike right now, probably because my kids' education fund is more important and secondly because it might lead to a divorce.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*Awesome seems about right.*



fabsroman said:


> I'll almost be jealous because I think the Pinarello Dogma in Black/Red/Silver is awesome looking. Even designed said frame on Pinarello's website and then decided that I just don't need to spend the money on another bike right now, probably because my kids' education fund is more important and secondly because it might lead to a divorce.


I had been pursuing a Colnago since starting my "Question for Colnago Owners" thread. Seems like years ago. And I end up with the Pinarello. And you're right; it's a beauty. I'd provide the entire build, but it was emailed to me in .jfif and it includes personal info. If I can edit it, i.e. when I don't feel lazy, I'll give the entire build. It's unfortunate that things ended up like this, but Colnago will survive. If they had played it straight from day one, I'd probably have a Colnago EPS on order.

Cheer up. Maybe you'll find a Pinarello Dogma B/S/R under your Christmas tree, assembled by your wife of course. Just drop some hints to your wife ;-) ! Your priorities are good; the kids education fund comes first. And a divorce would certainly increase the cost of the Pinarello, what with alimony and all. I'm fortunate or unfortunate, depending on your POV. I'm not married, answer to no one wrt to how I spend my money.

This year, up to today, all I'd purchased for myself for Christmas was two snow shovels. I was feeling deprived.


----------



## mtbbmet

koyaanisqatsi said:


> I had been pursuing a Colnago since starting my "Question for Colnago Owners" thread. Seems like years ago. And I end up with the Pinarello. And you're right; it's a beauty. I'd provide the entire build, but it was emailed to me in .jfif and it includes personal info. If I can edit it, i.e. when I don't feel lazy, I'll give the entire build. It's unfortunate that things ended up like this, but Colnago will survive. If they had played it straight from day one, I'd probably have a Colnago EPS on order.
> 
> Cheer up. Maybe you'll find a Pinarello Dogma B/S/R under your Christmas tree, assembled by your wife of course. Just drop some hints to your wife ;-) ! Your priorities are good; the kids education fund comes first. And a divorce would certainly increase the cost of the Pinarello, what with alimony and all. I'm fortunate or unfortunate, depending on your POV. I'm not married, answer to no one wrt to how I spend my money.
> 
> This year, up to today, all I'd purchased for myself for Christmas was two snow shovels. I was feeling deprived.


I smell a troll.
Your saying that you have been wanting a Colnago for a long time, and go with it to the point of ordering a frame in a color you didn't want. Then find out the color is available, but then figure that it's now too much trouble and order a pinarello instead. I think you are a liar, and that the only thing you have ordered is a $900 Fuji. Your story makes no sense.


----------



## fabsroman

mtbbmet said:


> I smell a troll.
> Your saying that you have been wanting a Colnago for a long time, and go with it to the point of ordering a frame in a color you didn't want. Then find out the color is available, but then figure that it's now too much trouble and order a pinarello instead. I think you are a liar, and that the only thing you have ordered is a $900 Fuji. Your story makes no sense.


Those are some pretty bold allegations, especially when you do not know this guy.

I've been PMing with him and I understand his frustration. Colnago doesn't do a very good job here in the US. Not many, if any, retailers in the US were advertising the C50 in ST01, and Veltec didn't even show it as an option in the catalog or online. However, Pista Palace was able to get a C50 in ST01 when it wasn't available at most places in the US, and is still able to get a C50 in ST01 when no other online retailers or retailers in general in the US will acknowledge that a C50 in ST01, a color scheme from 2008 which is two model years ago, is still available if you want it.

FYI - I think his story makes plenty of sense. Me, I almost went with a Bianchi 928 back in 2006 even though I really wanted a Colnago. The US prices were $1,800 for the lugged Bianchi 928, $3,600 for the Colnago Cristallo, and $4,400 for the Colnago C50 or Extreme C. That was a price difference I couldn't live with. I got lucky and found Bellatisport in Switzerland right before I ordered the Bianchi 928 from a place in Philadelphia (i.e., BiKyle) and was able to get the Cristallo delivered to me for $2,500, which was a price difference I could live with. Last year, I got the C50 for $3,200 delivered to me and with the 2008 paint scheme I wanted even though the 2009 paint schemes had already come out. $3,200 was a little hard to swallow, but I love the frame. If I was dropping $5,500 on a frame, they had better roll out the red carpet for me and get me exactly what I want, with absolutely no run around from either Colnago, Colnago America, or the retailer.


----------



## JeremyP

At the end of the day, you'll buy a Colnago. The Dogma is made in China, and is not timeless like a EP or C50, maybe less so with the EPS. But the look of the lugged tubes, in traditional is a classic.

What type of wheels will you be using?


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*mtbbmet: A number of errors in your post*



mtbbmet said:


> I smell a troll.
> Your saying that you have been wanting a Colnago for a long time, and go with it to the point of ordering a frame in a color you didn't want. Then find out the color is available, but then figure that it's now too much trouble and order a pinarello instead. I think you are a liar, and that the only thing you have ordered is a $900 Fuji. Your story makes no sense.


1) Yeah, I wanted a Colnago, but in a different thread I asked why I should buy one. I took some effort to convince that a Colnago was worth buying.

2) I actually liked the MTBK color, but it wasn't my first preference. It took some effort for my distributor to get Colnago to ship a PRZA EPS, and only after I insisted it could be done. It was embarrassing for my distributor, and to some extent, to me. Before I was told WS could get the PRZA, I decided to take control of my purchase and I changed the order to the Pinarello, substantially more effort (less trouble!!!!) than to change my already placed order from MTBK to PRZA.

3) It doesn't matter what you believe. I'll be riding a Pinarello Dogma next year, when I'm not riding one of my other bikes. Given that you have already directed a couple vulgarities at me in a PM, I suppose your calling me a "liar" is a step up for you.

4) In the end, I did not like the way Colnago is conducting business. And I don't really care what you think. You are of no consequence. Sadly, there are people like you in every Forum.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*No, at the end of the day I've bought a Pinarello Dogma*



JeremyP said:


> At the end of the day, you'll buy a Colnago. The Dogma is made in China, and is not timeless like a EP or C50, maybe less so with the EPS. But the look of the lugged tubes, in traditional is a classic.
> 
> What type of wheels will you be using?


Hi Jeremy,

The wheels are Campagnolo Shamal Ultra--2010 Aluminum Black Rim. I think these wheels are a step up from the Fulcrum Racing 5s I'd ordered with the Colnago EPS. The Pinarello factory build is shown at:

http://www.wrenchscience.com/road/frames/Pinarello/Dogma+60.1+Super+Record+11+Bike+-+2010

But Wrench Science is actually doing the build to save me some time. The frame is Black/Silver/Red. I've changed the saddle to the a Fizik Aliante K:ium--Black/Back Saddle and added a Cateye Strada computer and water bottle cage. This is a done deal...I put down a full 50% of purchase price, so prices are locked in.

I finally just got tired of Colnago's refusal to agree to provide a 2010 EPS PRZA. And if most shops call Colnago, that's the story they will get UNLESS THEY FIGHT FOR ONE. My contact at WS talks to Colnago at least twice per day routinely. WS sells a lot of Colnago frames. But it was still a big deal to get a PRZA from Colnago USA...they actually called Cambiago. To Colnago, I'd say "Either you do or you don't; either you will or you won't". And Colnago seemed to be uncertain in both respects. That's no way to do business.


----------



## fabsroman

koyaanisqatsi said:


> Hi Jeremy,
> 
> The wheels are Campagnolo Shamal Ultra--2010 Aluminum Black Rim. I think these wheels are a step up from the Fulcrum Racing 5s I'd ordered with the Colnago EPS. The Pinarello factory build is shown at:
> 
> http://www.wrenchscience.com/road/frames/Pinarello/Dogma+60.1+Super+Record+11+Bike+-+2010
> 
> But Wrench Science is actually doing the build to save me some time. The frame is Black/Silver/Red. I've changed the saddle to the a Fizik Aliante K:ium--Black/Back Saddle and added a Cateye Strada computer and water bottle cage. This is a done deal...I put down a full 50% of purchase price, so prices are locked in.
> 
> I finally just got tired of Colnago's refusal to agree to provide a 2010 EPS PRZA. And if most shops call Colnago, that's the story they will get UNLESS THEY FIGHT FOR ONE. My contact at WS talks to Colnago at least twice per day routinely. WS sells a lot of Colnago frames. But it was still a big deal to get a PRZA from Colnago USA...they actually called Cambiago. To Colnago, I'd say "Either you do or you don't; either you will or you won't". And Colnago seemed to be uncertain in both respects. That's no way to do business.


I really like that color combination, and I really need to stop looking at all these hot bikes out there and just concentrate on riding the ones I have.

I might have gone without the silver in the frame if possible and just done a black and red frame, but who knows. I don't even want to try to work on a color scheme because it might tempt me too much.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*Thanks fabsroman*



fabsroman said:


> Those are some pretty bold allegations, especially when you do not know this guy.
> 
> I've been PMing with him and I understand his frustration. Colnago doesn't do a very good job here in the US. Not many, if any, retailers in the US were advertising the C50 in ST01, and Veltec didn't even show it as an option in the catalog or online. However, Pista Palace was able to get a C50 in ST01 when it wasn't available at most places in the US, and is still able to get a C50 in ST01 when no other online retailers or retailers in general in the US will acknowledge that a C50 in ST01, a color scheme from 2008 which is two model years ago, is still available if you want it.
> 
> FYI - I think his story makes plenty of sense. Me, I almost went with a Bianchi 928 back in 2006 even though I really wanted a Colnago. The US prices were $1,800 for the lugged Bianchi 928, $3,600 for the Colnago Cristallo, and $4,400 for the Colnago C50 or Extreme C. That was a price difference I couldn't live with. I got lucky and found Bellatisport in Switzerland right before I ordered the Bianchi 928 from a place in Philadelphia (i.e., BiKyle) and was able to get the Cristallo delivered to me for $2,500, which was a price difference I could live with. Last year, I got the C50 for $3,200 delivered to me and with the 2008 paint scheme I wanted even though the 2009 paint schemes had already come out. $3,200 was a little hard to swallow, but I love the frame. If I was dropping $5,500 on a frame, they had better roll out the red carpet for me and get me exactly what I want, with absolutely no run around from either Colnago, Colnago America, or the retailer.


You are probably the only person who has followed my bike purchase odyssey thru 2 threads. By the time WS got Colnago US to agree to ship a PRZA for me, I'd decided to just change direction on the bike purchase. I will bet that if you call most authorized Colnago retailers in the U.S., they will all say that the 2010 EPS PRZA is not available. They can all call Colnago US and will probably get the same answer. I'll never miss the EPS and Colnago will never miss me.

BTW, I've been rudely and vulgarly PMed by mtbbmet before, and he's a person best ignored.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*Same here*



fabsroman said:


> I really like that color combination, and I really need to stop looking at all these hot bikes out there and just concentrate on riding the ones I have.
> 
> I might have gone without the silver in the frame if possible and just done a black and red frame, but who knows. I don't even want to try to work on a color scheme because it might tempt me too much.


I'm done with my bike shopping. It didn't turn out as expected. Like you, I need to start riding the bikes I have...on my trainer.

Most of the Pinarello paint schemes are good. But WS has the Black/Silver/Red and that's fine. It IS easier to buy a car!


----------



## fabsroman

koyaanisqatsi said:


> I'm done with my bike shopping. It didn't turn out as expected. Like you, I need to start riding the bikes I have...on my trainer.
> 
> Most of the Pinarello paint schemes are good. But WS has the Black/Silver/Red and that's fine. It IS easier to buy a car!


I agree it is easier to buy a car. Ford even lets you know the exact inventory that dealers have in stock, and it isn't very hard to find out what the invoice price is on the vehicle. I negotiated the purchase of my dad's Focus in about 2 hours. My F-350 was a little tougher, and was pretty much a nightmare that took 2 days. However, building my bikes has taken hours and hours and hours.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*My Pinarello Order; Sorry Colnago*

Sure it's not a $900 Fuji, but it's the best I could do.


Product Type Description Quantity
Frame Pinarello Dogma 60.1 - 2010 Black/Red 51.50 53.50 STD 1
Fork Pinarello Onda FPK Asym | OEM Spec'd | Carbon C 43.00 1
Brake Campagnolo Super Record-D Skeleton | Black 1
BrakeShift Campagnolo Super Record QS Ergopower 1
Cable Campagnolo Stainless | 1
Housing Campagnolo Campagnolo | Black 1
Crank Campagnolo Super Record 11 Compact Carbon 172.50 34-50 1
BottomBracket Campagnolo Super Record 11 | Aluminum | Grey 1
FrontDerailleur Campagnolo Super Record 11 QS 1
Cassette Campagnolo Record 11 | Steel/Titanium | 11-25 1
RearDerailleur Campagnolo Super Record 11 | Carbon | S 1
Chain Campagnolo Record 11 1
Wheelset Campagnolo Shamal Ultra - 2010 Aluminum Rim Black 1
Skewer Fulcrum OEM Spec'd | Black | 1
Tire Continental Grand Prix 4000 | Black | Kevlar | STD | 23.00 2
Tube Butyl Presta 20.00-28.00 | 48.00mm 2
Pedal Look Keo 2 Max Carbon | Carbon 1
Headset Pinarello Integrated | 1
Stem Pinarello Most Tigerlite | Carbon | 90.00 | -10.00 1
Handlebar Pinarello Most Lionair | ERGO | Carbon | Carbon 1
HandlebarTape Pinarello Handlebar Tape | Black 1
Seatpost Pinarello Most Aero Carbon 300mm Setback 1
Saddle Fizik Aliante K:ium | Black/Black Suede 1

Extras:	Description	Quantity
Accessory Cateye Strada Wireless | Black | 0.00 | 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## donevan

*dear*



koyaanisqatsi said:


> *Customers are the ultimate losers...maybe Colnago will be the ultimate loser*
> 
> 
> 1) Yeah, I wanted a Colnago, but in a different thread I asked why I should buy one. I took some effort to convince that a Colnago was worth buying.
> 
> 2) I actually liked the MTBK color, but it wasn't my first preference. It took some effort for my distributor to get Colnago to ship a PRZA EPS, and only after I insisted it could be done. It was embarrassing for my distributor, and to some extent, to me. Before I was told WS could get the PRZA, I decided to take control of my purchase and I changed the order to the Pinarello, substantially more effort (less trouble!!!!) than to change my already placed order from MTBK to PRZA.
> 
> 3) It doesn't matter what you believe. I'll be riding a Pinarello Dogma next year, when I'm not riding one of my other bikes. Given that you have already directed a couple vulgarities at me in a PM, I suppose your calling me a "liar" is a step up for you.
> 
> 4) In the end, *I did not like the way Colnago is conducting business. And I don't really care what you think. You are of no consequence. Sadly, there are people like you in every Forum.*



I'm another person who has followed your bike purchase odyssey thru 2 threads. So I can understand your frstration. But some of your point doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think every retailer must provide custom paint scheme like PR82, PRZA. Dealers that have more invested and have more commitment and knowledge should have advantages. They deserve the exclusivity and customer can enjoy their service. 

I got an e-mail from racycles that they got EPS frames in LX-10 paint scheme. Isn't it awesome that we colnago users can enjoy other paint schemes not on the catalogue? Is the same thing possible in any other Italian major brand? I don't think so. 

I respect your choice on the Dogma. I think it's cool one. Enjoy your riding, and next time I hope you can have an opportunity to experience colnago. 
Regards.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*donevan, I see your point.*

But I disagree. If the custom colors are available through one Colnago authorized retailers, they should be available through all authorized retailers. How does it look if an major online Colnago retailer such as Wrench Science that sells a lot of frames and full builds for Colnago doesn't even know they can get the custom colors? In fact, they had been told by Colnago U.S. that the EPS PRZA was NOT available! That was the position that WS was in. It gets worse... WS told me they couldn't get the 2010 EPS PRZA, and the salesman I was working with talks to Colnago at least twice per day, sometimes 5 times per day. He works closely with Colnago. It was only when that salesman was armed with the information I'd provided (i.e. at least one other retailer is ordering and receiving the 2010 EPS PRZA and other custom colors) that the WS salesman got Colnago U.S. to call Cambiago to get approval. Worse still, that same salesman had received an inquiry (mid-Nov. 2009) from a person who wanted two 2010 EPS PRZA bikes and told that person that the EPS PRZA was not available for 2010, based on what he had been told by Colnago. That person _did_ buy two EPS bikes in another color, but that person did not get what he wanted and what he wanted was indeed available, but apparently to only one retailer. It makes me wonder if WS has an exclusive on the MTBK since it is not in the Colnago catalogue and I've not seen it at any other retailers Web site. To be honest, I doubt that Pista Palace has an "exclusive" on the 2010 EPS Saronni frames...the only place I've seen this asserted is at the Pista Palace. Has it been announced any other place????

Contrast the Colnago approach to the Lynskey approach. Go to the Lynkey Web site and you can see all the paints schemes and colors. And moreover, you can customize the paint scheme any way you wish. Your choice (within reason), not Lynskey's. The best bikes are built in the U.S. these days, and Lynskey is one of them. The Lynskey not carbon, but they're almost unbreakable.

I think Colnago builds fine bikes. I approached this high-end bike purchase effort w/o any bias, except I wanted a horizontal top tube. And people who responded to my "Question for Colnago Owners" thread convinced me that Colnago was one of the best ways to go for a high end bike. Then Colnago's relationships with their retailers and your " Is EPS Zabel(PRZA) still going on in 2010?" thread eventually convinced me otherwise. By the time WS finagled a 2010 EPS PRZA frame out of Colnago, I'd had enough. Sure, the MTBK was an acceptable color. But I was given few choices. Like you, the standard color schemes leave me cold. To Colnago: "Either you do or you don't; either you will or you won't". I think that, if I had not continued to press the paint scheme and color issue, there would still be a lot of clueless people. And many potential Colnago customers out there will NEVER know what paint schemes and colors are available to them, because retailers don't have the information either. 

Sorry. I know I've covered old ground here. I just wanted to be comfortable with my purchase. Laying out somewhere between $7,500 and $10,000 for a bike requires some sense of comfort. I'm sure I'll be happy on the Pinarello Dogma. I'll never know what I missed, if anything, by not purchasing the Colnago. I hope my train of thought that took me where it did makes more sense now. We all approach life differently and maybe my purchase (engraved in stone at this point) makes no sense to anybody.



donevan said:


> I'm another person who has followed your bike purchase odyssey thru 2 threads. So I can understand your frstration. But some of your point doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> I don't think every retailer must provide custom paint scheme like PR82, PRZA. Dealers that have more invested and have more commitment and knowledge should have advantages. They deserve the exclusivity and customer can enjoy their service.
> 
> I got an e-mail from racycles that they got EPS frames in LX-10 paint scheme. Isn't it awesome that we colnago users can enjoy other paint schemes not on the catalogue? Is the same thing possible in any other Italian major brand? I don't think so.
> 
> I respect your choice on the Dogma. I think it's cool one. Enjoy your riding, and next time I hope you can have an opportunity to experience colnago.
> Regards.


----------



## JeremyP

I'm sure you will be happy with the Dogma, it is a fine race bike :-D. But this exclusivity is what draws us to Colnago. Having custom bicycles, custom colours which are difficult to get is the name of the game once you move up in the echelon of bicycle ownership.

I'm sorry you were disappointed with your experience at WS, but I just can't imagine that someone who works at Colnago, and who talks to Colnago 5 times a day does not know this stuff. Trust me, you will be riding a Colnago sooner rather than later ;-), perhaps when they replace the C50.


----------



## mtbbmet

koyaanisqatsi said:


> BTW, I've been rudely and vulgarly PMed by mtbbmet before, and he's a person best ignored.


Re: Bothered by one or more of my posts? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbbmet
Quote:
Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi
Good! Your post, in reply to one of mine, demonstrated that you are rude, crude and ignorant. So I have a suggestion. Stay out of my way. You are not helpful in the least. 

Originally Posted by mtbbmet
pfffffffttttttttt.
You were told what you needed to do, you chose to get snotty and act like a dick. I chose to return the honor.
**** your self. 

Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi
No one else complained. So you would be the problem. But thanks for the kind words."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets just clear something up here. You PM'd me to tell me that I am "rude, crude, and ignorant", I in turn tell you to go shove it. But somehow I'm the one sending offensive PM's? Look, I didn't ask you to PM me this crap, you chose to do that yourself. Therefore you must live with the "vulgar" reply.
Also, I stand behind both the Troll and Liar comments. Your tale does not add up, not even kind of. You were told repeatedly that it was/is available by members of this forum, you just had to have some words with WS. WS, with some prodding, were/are able to get you one, but now you don't want it? This is not a problem with how Colnago does business, it is a problem with WS. But you seem to want to bag on Colnago about it. You want to know what I honestly think, I think I was wrong about you riding a Fuji. You will be riding a Pinarello, because I think you are a rep, or have a vested interest in the Pinarello brand. So why not try and make your biggest competition look bad on a forum? You are a Troll, please go away now and leave the Colnago forum for those that enjoy the bikes, the history, and the brand.
Thank you. And in the future please refrain from PMing me to tell me my faults, my wife does that daily.
Troll.


----------



## fabsroman

mtbbmet said:


> Re: Bothered by one or more of my posts?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mtbbmet
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi
> Good! Your post, in reply to one of mine, demonstrated that you are rude, crude and ignorant. So I have a suggestion. Stay out of my way. You are not helpful in the least.
> 
> Originally Posted by mtbbmet
> pfffffffttttttttt.
> You were told what you needed to do, you chose to get snotty and act like a dick. I chose to return the honor.
> **** your self.
> 
> Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi
> No one else complained. So you would be the problem. But thanks for the kind words."
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lets just clear something up here. You PM'd me to tell me that I am "rude, crude, and ignorant", I in turn tell you to go shove it. But somehow I'm the one sending offensive PM's? Look, I didn't ask you to PM me this crap, you chose to do that yourself. Therefore you must live with the "vulgar" reply.
> Also, I stand behind both the Troll and Liar comments. Your tale does not add up, not even kind of. You were told repeatedly that it was/is available by members of this forum, you just had to have some words with WS. WS, with some prodding, were/are able to get you one, but now you don't want it? This is not a problem with how Colnago does business, it is a problem with WS. But you seem to want to bag on Colnago about it. You want to know what I honestly think, I think I was wrong about you riding a Fuji. You will be riding a Pinarello, because I think you are a rep, or have a vested interest in the Pinarello brand. So why not try and make your biggest competition look bad on a forum? You are a Troll, please go away now and leave the Colnago forum for those that enjoy the bikes, the history, and the brand.
> Thank you. And in the future please refrain from PMing me to tell me my faults, my wife does that daily.
> Troll.


I can tell you my feelings on PM. They are sent behind the scenes for a reason, and in this case, justly so.

FYI - rude, crude, and ignorant are not considered cuss words. I use them in front of my 2 year old an infant. What you wrote back contained cuss words, which are crude, rude, and vulgar.

I've been debating between the Pinarello Dogma and the Colnago EPS. If I go the Pinarello route, will I be a troll too? Some people have an issue with how Colnago does business. I know I do. If I didn't do as much research as I do on the internet regarding the brand, but just went down to my LBS and asked what color schemes are available on the EPS, or just picked up the Colnago America catalog, how pissed would I be when I buy an EPS in something other than the color I want PR82 because I assumed it wasn't available since it was not listed in the catalog or my LBS didn't tell me about it's availability.

When I bought my Cristallo, I had absolutely no clue that custom paint jobs were possible. Probably would not have changed my mind on the Cristallo in NS03, but it would have been nice to know.


----------



## mtbbmet

fabsroman said:


> FYI - rude, crude, and ignorant are not considered cuss words. I use them in front of my 2 year old an infant. What you wrote back contained cuss words, which are crude, rude, and vulgar.


No, what I sent him contained astriks, which is different than rude, crude, cuss words. I stand behind everything I've written to this point. His story makes no sense. Why is he unhappy with Colnago, who are more than willing to give him what he wants, when it is WS who are holding back services.


----------



## fabsroman

mtbbmet said:


> No, what I sent him contained astriks, which is different than rude, crude, cuss words. I stand behind everything I've written to this point. His story makes no sense. Why is he unhappy with Colnago, who are more than willing to give him what he wants, when it is WS who are holding back services.


I assumed that the asterisks were generated by this board when the PM was cut and pasted into this thread. Nonetheless, I think we can all understand what the asterisks were supposed to mean. Otherwise, you would have just written the word. Kind of a cute way to try and work around cussing. If that is how you like to say "but I didn't cuss, I only used asterisks", how do you feel about somebody giving you the finger?

Now, how is it that all these custom colors are available to people, IF they jump through enough hoops and IF they pick the right LBS? Why is it that Colnago America does not advertise in the catalogs that these custom colors are available? Why is it that there is absolutely no mention that these custom colors are available?

I don't want to rag on Pista Palace because I think the owner, The_Kraken has been more than nice and forth coming, but how is it that Pista Palace can write on its website that it is getting 12, and only 12, EPS's in PR82 and these will be the only EPS's in PR82 in the 2010 model year, and then they get more. How about the poor bastard that buys one of those "12" thinking that he will have one of only 12 EPS PR82's out there in 2010? Granted, there is no upcharge for the PR82, so I guess there really isn't as much to complain about, except that $5,500 is a pretty good "exclusive" price in the first place. What if having 1 of 12 of these frames is what made the person bite the bullet and spend the $5,500?

I have heard other stories about people that bought a C40 or C50 in world champ colors because only a certain number were being made, and then they found out that the color scheme was available on later year frames if it was requested.

Nah, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Colnago's dealership, the way it advertises, or the way Colnago America advertise. Essentially, you had better be in the know about Colnago, or know somebody that is in the know and ask a million questions before dropping $5,500.

If WS can get these other frame colors, why don't they advertise it?

Personally, I would love to see some of the retro paint schemes available in future years. I would even be willing to pay something extra for these paint schemes. Just let me know they are available. Heck, it might convince me to buy an EPS if I can get it in something I want like WXIN.

In the end, I can see where his issue lies with Colnago. Me, I just like the frames a little more than I dislike their business practices.

Ask yourself, how is it that Colnago has gone through 3 distributors/wholesalers since 2006? What was it, Trialtir, Veltec, and now Colnago America. Why is it that LBS's around me are starting to drop Colnago completely?


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*No Colnago for me.*



JeremyP said:


> I'm sure you will be happy with the Dogma, it is a fine race bike :-D. But this exclusivity is what draws us to Colnago. Having custom bicycles, custom colours which are difficult to get is the name of the game once you move up in the echelon of bicycle ownership.
> 
> I'm sorry you were disappointed with your experience at WS, but I just can't imagine that someone who works at Colnago, and who talks to Colnago 5 times a day does not know this stuff. Trust me, you will be riding a Colnago sooner rather than later ;-), perhaps when they replace the C50.


The "exclusivity" is mostly an illusion. Contacting R&A Cycles to find out what custom colors the 2010 EPS is available in, they emailed back (in part):

"Example:

- Mapei

- PRZA

- LX10

- TWBK

This is a sample of colors we have and that no one else gets."

They actually think they and only they can get these custom colors. I think the problem is not with WS and I'm not disappointed in WS. Rather, the problem is with Colnago who allows retailers to believe they have an exclusive on some custom color. WS was told directly by Colnago U.S. that no 2010 EPS PRZA was available; it's hard to see how it was the fault of WS (or me, or the other customer) for believing that. The joke is on the retailers and unfortunate customers who think they are getting exclusivity. Assuming I did have a local authorized Colnago retailer near me...they would almost certainly have no idea what is really available as far as frame colors. For that, I blame Colnago.


----------



## The_Kraken

*Time*

Let's hope others don't have a similar experience. Perhaps it is time for the thread to be put to sleep. Call me (Pista Palace) next time. The dialogue would have been like this:

PP: Hola
You: I want an EPS in PRZA, now damn it.
PP: OK, what size
You: 42 sloping. I am a little man.
PP: Call you in 8 weeks when it arrives. Don't worry about the deposit, someone will want it if you don't take it.
You: I love you, Pista Palace.
PP: Control yourself.


----------



## fabsroman

The_Kraken said:


> Let's hope others don't have a similar experience. Perhaps it is time for the thread to be put to sleep. Call me (Pista Palace) next time. The dialogue would have been like this:
> 
> PP: Hola
> You: I want an EPS in PRZA, now damn it.
> PP: OK, what size
> You: 42 sloping. I am a little man.
> PP: Call you in 8 weeks when it arrives. Don't worry about the deposit, someone will want it if you don't take it.
> You: I love you, Pista Palace.
> PP: Control yourself.


LOL That was pretty hilarious.

With that said, I still agree with Koyaa about the exclusivity of Colnago. What I think makes them "exclusive" is the price, and only the price.


----------



## JeremyP

koyaanisqatsi, I'm afraid we have to disagree on this one. :-D

The easiest way to sort this out from the beginning would have been to call Colnago directly ;-).

You guys in the US have cheap cars, you expect cheap Colnagos as well? haha


----------



## fabsroman

JeremyP said:


> koyaanisqatsi, I'm afraid we have to disagree on this one. :-D
> 
> The easiest way to sort this out from the beginning would have been to call Colnago directly ;-).
> 
> You guys in the US have cheap cars, you expect cheap Colnagos as well? haha


Jeremey, if you do not live in the US, how can you possibly comment on what it is like to buy a Colnago in the US.

As far as contacting Colnago directly, good luck on that one. I sent them an e-mail asking about the possibility of obtaining a paint code, and it took quite a while to get a response from them. Now, if I were to pick up the phone and call directly to Colnago in Italy, would they answer the phone, would they speak to me, and would they speak English?

I wish I could pick up the phone and call Ford directly with special requests on my next vehicle purchase.


----------



## iyeoh

Congratulations on your new Dogma 60.1!

Its a superb bike and I'm envious.

I'm really glad you chose to buy Super Record 11 instead of Record. If you recall, that was my only recommendation to you.

Cheers and happy riding.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*fabsroman: that about sums it up*



fabsroman said:


> LOL That was pretty hilarious.
> 
> With that said, I still agree with Koyaa about the exclusivity of Colnago. What I think makes them "exclusive" is the price, and only the price.


Of course, I want a horizontal TT ;-). It is quite odd that _no one_ seems to know the horrible truth about the availability of these paint schemes and colors. Many retailers think they have an exclusive. I think none actually do unless they have it in writing from Colnago. I could probably pry an EPS Saronni thru racycles or WS if I persisted.

I'm sure Colnago makes great frames. But I agree with fabsroman on what makes them exclusive. And I have no doubt that my Dogma will be equal to, possibly superior to the EPS in all characteristics that count.

Not much else I can say on this issue.

k.


----------



## donevan

*I see your point*



koyaanisqatsi said:


> But I disagree. If the custom colors are available through one Colnago authorized retailers, they should be available through all authorized retailers. .............. We all approach life differently and maybe my purchase (engraved in stone at this point) makes no sense to anybody.


Didn't your hasty buying of the EPS MTBK through WS bring about all the annoyance? Why didn't you ask more at this forum? What I really confused is that you became sulky as soon as the frame was available in PRZA paint. I presume that you chose Dogma only because it was easier to get than EPS.(And maybe WS got their stock) 

Why so angry with the company which provides various exclusive colors through some retailers only for the customers' benefit? One thing for sure is that if all the retailers around the world provide paint scheme like PRZA, PR82, I'll be the last person in the world to buy those frame. I presume there is no PRZA or PR82 EPS frame in my country and I'm so excited that I'm going to be the first owner of that rare paint scheme in 2010.

Colnago riders doesn't change their frames often because it's not easily become fed up. That's why once people ride colnago, they become permanent customer of the company, let alone its best reselling value in the market. I hope you don't get easily fed up with splendid,magnificent,gorgeous frame as I was with my Pina Prince Fire.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*What's your problem?*



donevan said:


> Didn't your hasty buying of the EPS MTBK through WS bring about all the annoyance? Why didn't you ask more at this forum? What I really confused is that you became sulky as soon as the frame was available in PRZA paint. I presume that you chose Dogma only because it was easier to get than EPS.(And maybe WS got their stock)
> 
> Why so angry with the company which provides various exclusive colors through some retailers only for the customers' benefit? One thing for sure is that if all the retailers around the world provide paint scheme like PRZA, PR82, I'll be the last person in the world to buy those frame. I presume there is no PRZA or PR82 EPS frame in my country and I'm so excited that I'm going to be the first owner of that rare paint scheme in 2010.
> 
> Colnago riders doesn't change their frames often because it's not easily become fed up. That's why once people ride colnago, they become permanent customer of the company, let alone its best reselling value in the market. I hope you don't get easily fed up with splendid,magnificent,gorgeous frame as I was with my Pina Prince Fire.


My purchase of the MTBK was not hasty. IMO, it was the best choice of all colors available to me. WS told me the PRZA was not available; they work closely with Colnago. The PRZA was not, and still isn't listed as an option ANYPLACE. And even now, racycles believes they have an exclusive on it. I should not believe them? The point is---I don't know how you missed it---that these retailers don't have an exclusive on any color. PP doesn't have an exclusive on the Saronni. They and only they say they do. The PRZA is actually available through any authorized retailer, according to people here---I need to email that info to racycles. All I wanted was a simple consistent answer as to what colors were available and thru whom. That sounds unreasonable to you?

You can have your Colnago. And Colnago can play games with customers and retailers. Frankly, the whole Colnago ownership thing comes across as bike snobbery. I'm comfortable with my Pinarello Dogma purchase and have no idea why you insist on trying to make me uncomfortable with it.

You can pout, and rant, and rave. But why do so if you're truly happy with your Colnago. Maybe you're just envious. If so, I'm sorry. Life is unfair.

As The_Kraken wrote yesterday, this thread has run it's course.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*JeremyP: Agree to disagree*



JeremyP said:


> koyaanisqatsi, I'm afraid we have to disagree on this one. :-D
> 
> The easiest way to sort this out from the beginning would have been to call Colnago directly ;-).
> 
> You guys in the US have cheap cars, you expect cheap Colnagos as well? haha


Let me try to understand this. You want to make my bike purchasing decisions? You think you know what's best for me? Should I email you for your precise demands on what I should buy? I don't think so  ! That said, I don't mind advice and wouldn't participate in these forums if I did mind advice. But I'm happy to agree to disagree. And then drop the issue(s), whatever the issue(s) is(are).

If Colnago misleads their retailers, why wouldn't they mislead me? For example, people have posted here that ANY authorized retailer could provide a 2010 EPS PRZA frame. But, racycles thinks they and only they can provide one. WS was told by Colnago U.S. that they couldn't get one, but fought on my behalf to be able to get one. "Colnago is as Colnago does", paraphrasing Forrest Gump. What would I have been told by Colnago U.S.?

[CAUTION: POLITICAL STATEMENT AHEAD] We have cheap cars and cheap petro, because we are constantly at war to have these things inexpensively at the consumer level. Of course, the U.S. is deeply in debt but there is little I can do about that. 

As it have posted before, money was not and is not an issue. I _never_ haggled over price on these frames/bikes. I pay the asking price of the bike. I can afford any bike that I want. I admit that I'm fortunate in the respect. Well, not entirely fortunate. I worked at a very challenging job, often working on weekends, all-nighters and Fridays and Saturdays, and holiday, and often putting in 60 to 80 hours per weeks and I saved my $. I wasn't paid extra for the extra effort, but I kept my contract and my job. I sacrificed. I now intend to enjoy my remaining years as best I can.

I repeated myself many times. Covered the same ground many times. The Pinarello Dogma deal is a done deal. Permit me to enjoy my purchase. And please, even if my purchase torments you terribly, can't you suffer in silence?


----------



## mtbbmet

koyaanisqatsi said:


> As it have posted before, money was not and is not an issue. I _never_ haggled over price on these frames/bikes. I pay the asking price of the bike. I can afford any bike that I want. I admit that I'm fortunate in the respect. Well, not entirely fortunate. I worked at a very challenging job, often working on weekends, all-nighters and Fridays and Saturdays, and holiday, and often putting in 60 to 80 hours per weeks and I saved my $. I wasn't paid extra for the extra effort, but I kept my contract and my job. I sacrificed. I now intend to enjoy my remaining years as best I can.


First of all, working in the industry for a decade as reference, you must be the hardest working sales rep in your region. Good for you. And those parties at Interbike don't count as "all-nighters".
Secondly, if money was not an issue, why did you wait till WS was having a 10% off sale before ordering. Was it this 10% that made you commit to WS (who did not want to go to the trouble of getting you the bike you really wanted) as opposed to R&A or PP who would have gone to the trouble? So maybe your purchase, and disappointment, have much more to do with you being unwilling to spend that extra 10% than you are making out. Again, it has been pointed out to you that the bike is/was available but because WS told you it wasn't means that Colnago's business model is shady. Your issue should be with WS for being unwilling to get you what you want when you are(?) willing to spend +$10K. You are putting blame on the wrong doorstep, and you should have done more homework in the first place. But you didn't. Now you blame Colnago for your laziness?
Anything to make the competitor look bad, I guess. Keep trying.


----------



## Jbartmc

*You would have loved the Colnago*

I hope you enjoy the Dogma, but am sure the Colnago (in any paint scheme) would have been enjoyed. As for the continued complaining about Colnago, I am not sympathetic because at the end of the day, what you wanted was within grasp prior to snatching the Dogma. 




koyaanisqatsi said:


> The "exclusivity" is mostly an illusion. Contacting R&A Cycles to find out what custom colors the 2010 EPS is available in, they emailed back (in part):
> 
> "Example:
> 
> - Mapei
> 
> - PRZA
> 
> - LX10
> 
> - TWBK
> 
> This is a sample of colors we have and that no one else gets."
> 
> They actually think they and only they can get these custom colors. I think the problem is not with WS and I'm not disappointed in WS. Rather, the problem is with Colnago who allows retailers to believe they have an exclusive on some custom color. WS was told directly by Colnago U.S. that no 2010 EPS PRZA was available; it's hard to see how it was the fault of WS (or me, or the other customer) for believing that. The joke is on the retailers and unfortunate customers who think they are getting exclusivity. Assuming I did have a local authorized Colnago retailer near me...they would almost certainly have no idea what is really available as far as frame colors. For that, I blame Colnago.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*mtbbmet: A number or errors in your post PART 2*



mtbbmet said:


> First of all, working in the industry for a decade as reference, you must be the hardest working sales rep in your region. Good for you. And those parties at Interbike don't count as "all-nighters".
> Secondly, if money was not an issue, why did you wait till WS was having a 10% off sale before ordering. Was it this 10% that made you commit to WS (who did not want to go to the trouble of getting you the bike you really wanted) as opposed to R&A or PP who would have gone to the trouble? So maybe your purchase, and disappointment, have much more to do with you being unwilling to spend that extra 10% than you are making out. Again, it has been pointed out to you that the bike is/was available but because WS told you it wasn't means that Colnago's business model is shady. Your issue should be with WS for being unwilling to get you what you want when you are(?) willing to spend +$10K. You are putting blame on the wrong doorstep, and you should have done more homework in the first place. But you didn't. Now you blame Colnago for your laziness?
> Anything to make the competitor look bad, I guess. Keep trying.


1) I do not now and have never worked in the bicycle industry in any way. I'm not and have never been a sales rep in any industry. I have _never_ been to Interbike. Where did you get these ideas?

2) I did not wait for the 10% Thanksgiving discount at WS. I had no idea it was coming. I simply took advantage of it because it was available. I begged them NOT to give me the discount but they were adamant  . In addition, it was good timing because I had recently received my custom made and fitted Lynskey; so I had precise measurements from a bike that was fitted to me.

3) WS told me the 2010 EPS PRZA frame was unavailable...that's what Colnago U.S. told them. R&A Cycles is _still_ under the delusion that they and only they can get the 2010 EPS PRZA frame. [Actually, I think I've disabused R&A Cycles of that fantasy] PP could always get a 2010 EPS PRZA frame, or so they claim. By the time WS was able to pry a 2010 EPS PRZA frame from Colnago, I'd decided to change my order. "Either you do or don't; either you will or you won't." Actually, I paid less than you think for the Pinarello Dogma...loyalty has it's perks. But how would you know that?

4) OK. I'm lazy. I believed WS when they said they could not get a 2010 EPS PRZA frame, I didn't believe R&A Cycle when they say that the 2010 EPS PRZA frame is of a color that no one else gets. I don't know how these two companies, the only U.S. online distributors for Colnago get those nutty ideas. Hint: I think Colnago U.S. told them, filling their respective heads with these nutty ideas. Now, I don't believe you at all and you are of no consequence. Once again, I do not work in the bicycle industry in any capacity. I'm simply a customer, a recreational rider, and I certainly didn't have to do anything to make Colnago look bad. And it's a reasonable inference that you agree they do look bad on this issue.

My purchase is none of your business, but I did feel that I should let people know the results of the journey through bicycle hell since so many helped me along the way. It's been fun, and I suggest that you and JeremyP start your own mud-slinging thread.

With that, I'm unsubscribing from this thread.


----------



## fabsroman

mtbbmet said:


> First of all, working in the industry for a decade as reference, you must be the hardest working sales rep in your region. Good for you. And those parties at Interbike don't count as "all-nighters".
> Secondly, if money was not an issue, why did you wait till WS was having a 10% off sale before ordering. Was it this 10% that made you commit to WS (who did not want to go to the trouble of getting you the bike you really wanted) as opposed to R&A or PP who would have gone to the trouble? So maybe your purchase, and disappointment, have much more to do with you being unwilling to spend that extra 10% than you are making out. Again, it has been pointed out to you that the bike is/was available but because WS told you it wasn't means that Colnago's business model is shady. Your issue should be with WS for being unwilling to get you what you want when you are(?) willing to spend +$10K. You are putting blame on the wrong doorstep, and you should have done more homework in the first place. But you didn't. Now you blame Colnago for your laziness?
> Anything to make the competitor look bad, I guess. Keep trying.


I've beaten this horse to death about the special paint schemes, but I just guess it isn't getting through.

A consumer that is dropping $5,500 on a bicycle frame should not have to do any homework before making a decision. If I am paying that kind of money and I go to an LBS or an online dealer, I expect them to lay out EVERY option for me before I make my decision. I don't want to have to spend hours doing homework, even though I usually do, but that is besides the point.

I'm willing to bet that Wrench Science had to buy a certain number of frames from the wholesaler and it is trying to unload those frames before it does special orders of any kind. Might not even be as much profit for them on a special order, but who knows.

Funny thing is I have the current Colnago catalog and there is no mention in it about the PRZA, PR82, or Molteni being available on an EPS. Alas, I think I already mentioned that, but I figured you must be overlooking it somehow since you fail to acknowledge it.

Me, I would love to see a line in the catalog saying "Prior year colors available for a $250 upcharge".


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*The horse id dead, alright!*



fabsroman said:


> I've beaten this horse to death about the special paint schemes, but I just guess it isn't getting through.
> 
> A consumer that is dropping $5,500 on a bicycle frame should not have to do any homework before making a decision. If I am paying that kind of money and I go to an LBS or an online dealer, I expect them to lay out EVERY option for me before I make my decision. I don't want to have to spend hours doing homework, even though I usually do, but that is besides the point.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that Wrench Science had to buy a certain number of frames from the wholesaler and it is trying to unload those frames before it does special orders of any kind. Might not even be as much profit for them on a special order, but who knows.
> 
> Funny thing is I have the current Colnago catalog and there is no mention in it about the PRZA, PR82, or Molteni being available on an EPS. Alas, I think I already mentioned that, but I figured you must be overlooking it somehow since you fail to acknowledge it.
> 
> Me, I would love to see a line in the catalog saying "Prior year colors available for a $250 upcharge".


I already noted that none of these custom colors are NOT in the Colnago catalogue. Custom, 2009, or earlier are not mentioned in the catalogue as being available. Strange way to do business.

I did my homework as well. And the answer was "Pinarello Dogma".


----------



## Jbartmc

Fabsroman

Beating a dead horse, such a good cliche! Happy Holidays.


----------



## JeremyP

koyaanisqatsi, where did I sling any mud at you? I think you are getting too caught up in all this. read all my posts, no mud slinging, nothing personal, but precise information, followed by some humour when you were trying to justify your purchase...


----------



## Chris BKK

*Colnago EPS MTBK*

Just got this bike for two days< ride for 100 km. feel so great, really do love this bike.


----------



## chuckice

Very nice...what's the total weight?


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## koyaanisqatsi

*That's the bike I almost bought.*



Chris BKK said:


> Just got this bike for two days< ride for 100 km. feel so great, really do love this bike.


It does look really nice, I wasn't sure whether it was painted a Matt Black or was nude carbon. That it's nude carbon saves about 0.09 lbs (about 41 grams) over the painted versions of the same bike, I think. The MTBK is indeed slightly lighter in weight than the painted frames...makes sense.

For various reason, I decided not to go with a Colnago at all. And I've ordered a 2010 Pinarello Dogma 60.1. I suspect that the difference between the bikes (EPS vs. Dogma) will be substantial, but mainly only in character. I doubt that either would be substantially faster than the other.

Good luck,
k.


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## r_mutt

are you girls done?


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## JeremyP

Nice build, any reason you chose sloping? The bike is screaming for Emporelli cages ;-).

Dogma is a better crit bike. EPS for cruising or road races.


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## apex

Chris BKK said:


> Just got this bike for two days< ride for 100 km. feel so great, really do love this bike.


A bike this nice deserves its own thread. It is truly a work of art. We also need a build list and weight.

Apex


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree.*



JeremyP said:


> Nice build, any reason you chose sloping? The bike is screaming for Emporelli cages ;-).
> 
> Dogma is a better crit bike. EPS for cruising or road races.


I would prefer the horizontal TT myself (mostly a bias towards tradition), but most road racers are using the sloped TT.

I watched almost every stage of the Vuelta, every stage of the Giro, the Milan-San Remo and the world championships (Time Trials and Criterium Road Race). I watched particularly to find out what the elite pros were riding. I saw the Pinarello Prince and/or Dogma in every stage race, the Milan-San Remo as well as the World Championship road race. The only time I saw any Colnago was in the World Championship road race (a criterium). Not very exact data, but that's what I saw. I was surprised that I didn't see more Colnagos in the major races. You can argue that the pros ride whatever bike company is willing to sponsor their team, and if so, you may be right.


----------



## JeremyP

Check Colnago circa 06/07 in terms of sponsorship


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*Done, now it's your turn.*



JeremyP said:


> Check Colnago circa 06/07 in terms of sponsorship


The most comprehensive information I could find on Colnago Team Sponsorship was from Wikipedia. I generally don't consider Wikipedia to be entirely reliable but accept this information for sponsorship:

2005 - 2008 Milram
2007 - 2008 Tinkoff
2007 - 2010 Landbouwkrediet-Tonissteiner
2010 BBox-Bouyoges Telecom
2010 Team Type 1
2010 Colnago-CSF Inox

Every bit as interesting is Wikipedia's claim (with citations) that some of Colnago's frames, such as the CLX, were produced in Taiwan in the recent past. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia links to citations are now dead. I'll note that the Pinarello Prince has won Bicycling Magazines Editor's Choice Award for Best Racing Bike in 2007 and 2008. Complete reviews for the Dogma and the EPS are hard to find---these are not bikes-for-the-masses I suppose. Bicycling Magazine gives the EPS 5 stars (out of 5) in its Buyers Guide Editorial Review (one short paragraph). 

You can now go through the same exercise for Pinarello. But if elite pros are willing to ride the Prince and/or Dogma in the 3 Grand Tours as well as many other non-criterium races, then I'd say that your statement "Dogma is a better crit bike. EPS (better) for cruising or road races", with text in parentheses added by me because I think that's what you meant to say, is the result of your personal bias and that there is no evidence to support that assertion. OTOH, I'm not willing to assert that the Prince and/or Dogma are the best for any racing application, even if Bicycling Magazine may think so.


----------



## JeremyP

Off the top of my head there is also Rabobank, Panaria and Navigators in and around those years.

This is the Colnago forum, so most of us are biased. That being said, the CLX is a piece of junk. I know of one distributor who only imports the C50/EP/EPS. The CX-1 is not a bad bike, but why not ride a Giant TCR Advanced SL for less?

Magazine articles once again should be taken with a grain of salt, even the acclaimed Tour magazine. You can quote figures from test rigs but how does one compare the ride of a medium to high stiffness fork with a likewise head tube to a high/ultra stiff fork and a flexy head tube? What I'm saying is nothing beats actual experience and ride time.

Both Prince/Dogma EP/EPS are fine bikes. They both perform but if you had both weapons, you would pick the Pinarello variants for crits. Yes, this is my opinion & experience. Is a crit bike less of a bike than a road/stage bike... nope. 

In the Pro/Continental level, do you hear anything but 'this is the best bike I've ridden' each year?

If you want a space age ride, get a SL3 or S6 HM Ultimate.

Have I offered any bad advice in the past? No, I've been spot on. I think I should just let the newbies lead the newbs, Always an entertaining read. ;-D


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*Off the top of your head?*



JeremyP said:


> Off the top of my head there is also Rabobank, Panaria and Navigators in and around those years.
> 
> This is the Colnago forum, so most of us are biased. That being said, the CLX is a piece of junk. I know of one distributor who only imports the C50/EP/EPS. The CX-1 is not a bad bike, but why not ride a Giant TCR Advanced SL for less?
> 
> Magazine articles once again should be taken with a grain of salt, even the acclaimed Tour magazine. You can quote figures from test rigs but how does one compare the ride of a medium to high stiffness fork with a likewise head tube to a high/ultra stiff fork and a flexy head tube? What I'm saying is nothing beats actual experience and ride time.
> 
> Both Prince/Dogma EP/EPS are fine bikes. They both perform but if you had both weapons, you would pick the Pinarello variants for crits. Yes, this is my opinion & experience. Is a crit bike less of a bike than a road/stage bike... nope.
> 
> In the Pro/Continental level, do you hear anything but 'this is the best bike I've ridden' each year?
> 
> If you want a space age ride, get a SL3 or S6 HM Ultimate.
> 
> Have I offered any bad advice in the past? No, I've been spot on. I think I should just let the newbies lead the newbs, Always an entertaining read. ;-D


"Off the top of your head" is not a reliable source of information. You can apparently find NO race teams that you are certain are sponsored by Colnago. You've presented no data to prove your assertion. What about 08/09? Rabobank rode Giant for 2009. Rabobank dropped Colnago for Giant...LOL. I saw elite Grand Tour stage racers ride the Pinarello Prince and/or Dogma in the 2009 races. I also saw Argon, BMC, Cannondale, Canyon Look, Cervelo, De Rosa, Fuji, Giant, Orbea, Scott, Jamis, Specialized, Time, Trek, Wilier and several others. I didn't see any Colnagos and that surprised me...they may have been there, but I didn't see any. I've made no assertion, but I doubt that you know what you are talking about wrt these bikes. Have you rode them all and what are your qualifications to make a determination? The Bicycle Magazine's Editors who rate these bikes actually ride them. The pro racers are often very particular about their bikes, and many ride Pinarello in road races...that's good enough for me.

When you can provide anything more than specious arguments to support your assertion, PM me so others don't need to suffer.


----------



## JeremyP

Yes, I guess I don't know anything about these bikes, you are so right. A real pity my bicycle knowledge doesn't come from magazines or retailers.

Guess speaking directly with distributors, professional riders, mechanics, and having a decent amount of saddle time on these rigs counts for naught. 

Your new Dogma with all the parts you have ordered for it are perfect. Thank you so much for your contribution.


----------



## JeremyP

koyaanisqatsi, thanks for showing me that ads in magazines actually work. The marketing guys at Specialized do know their stuff ;-D


----------



## fabsroman

koyaanisqatsi said:


> "Off the top of your head" is not a reliable source of information. You can apparently find NO race teams that you are certain are sponsored by Colnago. You've presented no data to prove your assertion. What about 08/09? Rabobank rode Giant for 2009. Rabobank dropped Colnago for Giant...LOL. I saw elite Grand Tour stage racers ride the Pinarello Prince and/or Dogma in the 2009 races. I also saw Argon, BMC, Cannondale, Canyon Look, Cervelo, De Rosa, Fuji, Giant, Orbea, Scott, Jamis, Specialized, Time, Trek, Wilier and several others. I didn't see any Colnagos and that surprised me...they may have been there, but I didn't see any. I've made no assertion, but I doubt that you know what you are talking about wrt these bikes. Have you rode them all and what are your qualifications to make a determination? The Bicycle Magazine's Editors who rate these bikes actually ride them. The pro racers are often very particular about their bikes, and many ride Pinarello in road races...that's good enough for me.
> 
> When you can provide anything more than specious arguments to support your assertion, PM me so others don't need to suffer.


We have covered this over the years on here. This past racing season, none of the pro tour riders were on Colnagos. Most of us in this forum knew that before the 2009 season even started, just like we know BBox will be racing on Colnagos next year.

Pros do not pick the frame that they prefer. They pick the frame that will pay their salary and put food on the table. I believe Cannondale paid Liquigas something like $13 million for Liquigas to switch from Bianchi to Cannondale. When these frame manufacturers decide to sponsor a team, they aren't just contributing frames, but cash too, and a lot of cash at that. The amount of cash makes the actual frame cost look paltry in comparison. Teams will almost ride whatever their sponsor puts under them unless it is a wet noodle or it might cause them physical harm.

There are plenty of really good bike companies out there that do not sponsor pro level teams.

As far as Colnago is concerned, the year Contador won his first TdF, Rasmussen was in yellow on a Colnago. I believe that was 3 years ago. Rabobank rode Colnagos the year after that too. 2009 was the first year that Rabobank didn't ride Colnago. I don't blame Colnago from taking a year away from pro sponsorship and pocketing all the cash. That is a lot of money.


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## The_Kraken

*infinite thread*

I just woke up from a coma with a huge beard, grey haired pubes, a catheter in me and this thread is still alive. What year is it?


----------



## fabsroman

The_Kraken said:


> I just woke up from a coma with a huge beard, grey haired pubes, a catheter in me and this thread is still alive. What year is it?


Some things are just extremely hard to kill, and it looks like this thread is one of them. Of course, you and I posting to it doesn't help its demise.


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## apex

*Colnago Sponsorship history*

Colnago-sponsored teams since 1968

* 1968 - 1973 Molteni
* 1969 - 1978 SCIC
* 1975-1976 Zonca-Santini
* 1975 - 1979 Kas Campagnolo
* 1977 Ijsboerke-Colnago
* 1977 Kanel-Colnago
* 1978 Mecap-Selle Italia
* 1978 - 1979 Miniflat-ys-vdb-Colnago
* 1978 Intercontinentale
* 1979 Sapa
* 1979 Inoxpran
* 1979 Lano-Boul d'Or
* 1980 Boule d'Or Colnago Studio Casa
* 1980 Gis Gelati
* 1980 - 1981 Sunair Sport 80 Colnago
* 1980 Splendor
* 1981 Gis Campagnolo
* 1981 - 1983 Boule d'Or Colnago Studio Casa
* 1982 - 1988 Del Tongo Colnago
* 1984 Kwantum Colnago
* 1984 Safir Colnago
* 1985 Kwantum Hallen
* 1985 Safir van den Ven Colnago
* 1985 Tonissteiner Saxon
* 1986 Kwantum Sport Shop
* 1986 Miko Tonissteiner Fevrier
* 1986 Roland van den Ven Colnago
* 1987 - 1988 Roland Colnago
* 1987 Superconfex Kwantum Colnago
* 1988 - 1989 Superconfex
* 1988 Panasonic Isostar
* 1989 Panasonic
* 1989 Malvor Sidi Colnago
* 1989 - 1990 Alfalum
* 1990 - 1992 Buckler
* 1990 La William
* 1990 Diana Colnago
* 1990 Clas
* 1991 - 1993 Clas Cajatur
* 1991 - 1993 Ariostea
* 1991 Colnago Lampre Sopran
* 1992 Lampre Colnago Animex
* 1993 - 1994 Word Perfect
* 1993 Lampre Polti
* 1993 - 1999 Tonissteiner Colnago Saxon
* 1994 - 1995 Lampre Panaria
* 1994 Mapei Class
* 1994 Novell Software
* 1995 - 1997 Mapei GB
* 1996 Panaria Vinavil
* 1996 - 2007 Rabobank
* 1996 - 1997 Casino
* 1998 Mapei Bricobi
* 1999 - 2002 Mapei Quick.Step
* 1999 Lampre Daikin
* 2001 Coast
* 2001 - 2006 Landbouwkrediet Colnago
* 2001 - 2007 Navigators
* 2005 - 2007 Panaria Navigare
* 2005 Domina Vacanze
* 2005 Action
* 2005 Skil Shimano
* 2005 - 2007 Milram
* 2007 Tinkoff
* 2007 Landbouwkrediet-Tonissteiner

I found this list on weightweenies. Thought you might find it interesting.

Apex


----------



## The_Kraken

*Team WVO*

You left out one team Apex, Team 5 Star Waste Vegetable Oil in 2008! The only US team sponsored by Colnago that year. This team is now known as Team Pista Palace.


----------



## apex

The_Kraken said:


> You left out one team Apex, Team 5 Star Waste Vegetable Oil in 2008! The only US team sponsored by Colnago that year. This team is now known as Team Pista Palace.


I am sure this list is far from complete. I just thought that some people may not be aware of Colnagos long histroy in competition not to mention all of the victories. How many times has the C50 won P-R? Nice team kit by the way.

Apex


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*Good point*



fabsroman said:


> Some things are just extremely hard to kill, and it looks like this thread is one of them. Of course, you and I posting to it doesn't help its demise.


This thread is not required reading. Unsubscribe if it really bothers you. I'm not sure where apex got his Colnago sponsorship history from. His may be better than mine. Mine is from Wikipedia and not necessarily reliable. For the current and past few years (already presented) I get:

2005 - 2008 Milram
2007 - 2008 Tinkoff
2007 - 2010 Landbouwkrediet-Tonissteiner
2010 BBox-Bouyoges Telecom
2010 Team Type 1
2010 Colnago-CSF Inox

I had the audacity to question JeremyP's statement "Dogma is a better crit bike. EPS for cruising or road races." I don't recall saying that the Prince and/or Dogma was actually a better road racing bike...I made no assertion in that regard and merely said that I wasn't sure if I agreed or disagreed with him. But I have no idea why the elite pros would ride Pinarello Prince and Dogmas in the Grand Tours and other classic road races during the 2009 year if those bikes would put them at a disadvantage. I get one broadcast TV station that showed the Giro and Vuelta stage races, the Milan-San Remo and the World Championship. Since manufacturers advertise the fact that racers win stages and races on their bikes, I suspect that sponsoring a race team can help generate a lot of sales if that team has any success. And I've already asked JeremyP to PM me if he wants to present any more information--well any information--to me.

Last, I thank JeremyP for his concession. It wasn't necessary. I already knew that the Dogma and the Prince were superior to the EPS. I was just too polite to say it.


----------



## iyeoh

Colnago Campione! Forza!


----------



## mtbbmet

fabsroman said:


> There are plenty of really good bike companies out there that do not sponsor pro level teams.


And plenty of bad ones that do.
Canyon
Lapierre
Cervelo
Decathalon
Louis Garneau


----------



## mtbbmet

apex said:


> Colnago-sponsored teams since 1968
> 
> * 1968 - 1973 Molteni
> * 1969 - 1978 SCIC
> * 1975-1976 Zonca-Santini
> * 1975 - 1979 Kas Campagnolo
> * 1977 Ijsboerke-Colnago
> * 1977 Kanel-Colnago
> * 1978 Mecap-Selle Italia
> * 1978 - 1979 Miniflat-ys-vdb-Colnago
> * 1978 Intercontinentale
> * 1979 Sapa
> * 1979 Inoxpran
> * 1979 Lano-Boul d'Or
> * 1980 Boule d'Or Colnago Studio Casa
> * 1980 Gis Gelati
> * 1980 - 1981 Sunair Sport 80 Colnago
> * 1980 Splendor
> * 1981 Gis Campagnolo
> * 1981 - 1983 Boule d'Or Colnago Studio Casa
> * 1982 - 1988 Del Tongo Colnago
> * 1984 Kwantum Colnago
> * 1984 Safir Colnago
> * 1985 Kwantum Hallen
> * 1985 Safir van den Ven Colnago
> * 1985 Tonissteiner Saxon
> * 1986 Kwantum Sport Shop
> * 1986 Miko Tonissteiner Fevrier
> * 1986 Roland van den Ven Colnago
> * 1987 - 1988 Roland Colnago
> * 1987 Superconfex Kwantum Colnago
> * 1988 - 1989 Superconfex
> * 1988 Panasonic Isostar
> * 1989 Panasonic
> * 1989 Malvor Sidi Colnago
> * 1989 - 1990 Alfalum
> * 1990 - 1992 Buckler
> * 1990 La William
> * 1990 Diana Colnago
> * 1990 Clas
> * 1991 - 1993 Clas Cajatur
> * 1991 - 1993 Ariostea
> * 1991 Colnago Lampre Sopran
> * 1992 Lampre Colnago Animex
> * 1993 - 1994 Word Perfect
> * 1993 Lampre Polti
> * 1993 - 1999 Tonissteiner Colnago Saxon
> * 1994 - 1995 Lampre Panaria
> * 1994 Mapei Class
> * 1994 Novell Software
> * 1995 - 1997 Mapei GB
> * 1996 Panaria Vinavil
> * 1996 - 2007 Rabobank
> * 1996 - 1997 Casino
> * 1998 Mapei Bricobi
> * 1999 - 2002 Mapei Quick.Step
> * 1999 Lampre Daikin
> * 2001 Coast
> * 2001 - 2006 Landbouwkrediet Colnago
> * 2001 - 2007 Navigators
> * 2005 - 2007 Panaria Navigare
> * 2005 Domina Vacanze
> * 2005 Action
> * 2005 Skil Shimano
> * 2005 - 2007 Milram
> * 2007 Tinkoff
> * 2007 Landbouwkrediet-Tonissteiner
> 
> I found this list on weightweenies. Thought you might find it interesting.
> 
> Apex


This information is on the very last page of the 2010 catalogue, in a very well presented format. Any one who did even a small amount of research if they were considering buying an EPS would have, at minimum, picked up a brochure on the brand. Unless they were never really buying one in the first place, or were really dense.
In no way is this directed at you Apex. Thanks for posting info for those too lazy and ill informed to look for it themselves.


----------



## Jbartmc

koyaanisqatsi said:


> The most comprehensive information I could find on Colnago Team Sponsorship was from Wikipedia. I generally don't consider Wikipedia to be entirely reliable but accept this information for sponsorship:
> 
> 2005 - 2008 Milram
> 2007 - 2008 Tinkoff
> 2007 - 2010 Landbouwkrediet-Tonissteiner
> 2010 BBox-Bouyoges Telecom
> 2010 Team Type 1
> 2010 Colnago-CSF Inox
> 
> Every bit as interesting is Wikipedia's claim (with citations) that some of Colnago's frames, such as the CLX, were produced in Taiwan in the recent past. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia links to citations are now dead. I'll note that the Pinarello Prince has won Bicycling Magazines Editor's Choice Award for Best Racing Bike in 2007 and 2008. Complete reviews for the Dogma and the EPS are hard to find---these are not bikes-for-the-masses I suppose. Bicycling Magazine gives the EPS 5 stars (out of 5) in its Buyers Guide Editorial Review (one short paragraph).
> 
> You can now go through the same exercise for Pinarello. But if elite pros are willing to ride the Prince and/or Dogma in the 3 Grand Tours as well as many other non-criterium races, then I'd say that your statement "Dogma is a better crit bike. EPS (better) for cruising or road races", with text in parentheses added by me because I think that's what you meant to say, is the result of your personal bias and that there is no evidence to support that assertion. OTOH, I'm not willing to assert that the Prince and/or Dogma are the best for any racing application, even if Bicycling Magazine may think so.


The Dogma will be an outstanding bike, as any bike should be at the $5,000 price range. As for Bicycling Magazine Editor's Picks, I take its recommendations with a small grain of salt because many of the items it reviews favorably are made by advertisers that buy multi-page spreads in its magazine. Also, I do not think I have ever read a bad review in it. It is a pretty good magazine, but the only review that matters for you is what you think of your bike once it arrives and you ride it.


----------



## Chris BKK

*Hi Guys,*

Actually, i did order Dogma but waiting for three months was too long and my local dealer still do not have the answer for me so i started searching for the new best and rare frame and I found Colnago EPS MTBK. then I did call singapore dealer. They had it so I flew to singapore for a day trip just to have this frame and to be first in south east asia. this really make a big surprise in BKK. and the weight is 6.2 k. Cheers, Chris


----------



## JeremyP

Chris. Congratulations on the EPS. :-D


----------



## JeremyP

I'm glad this didn't end up as being, the double dealing, unethical practices of my Chinese made Italian bike dealer/manufacturer...


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*You're disappointing me, Jeremy!*



JeremyP said:


> I'm glad this didn't end up as being, the double dealing, unethical practices of my Chinese made Italian bike dealer/manufacturer...


Instead, it ended up as being the double-dealing, unethical practices of an Italian frame manufacturer...times are hard in Cambiago I guess. I suppose that I need to email Colnago U.S. with my complaints...hold their feet to the fire. For Jeremy's benefit:

*unethical* |ˌənˈeθikəl|
adjective
not morally correct : _it is unethical to torment any creature for entertainment._


BTW, the Pinarello frame rather than my entire bike, is made in Taiwan using Japanese materials. I'm willing to bet that most Colnagos will be built in Taiwan/China within 5 years or Colnago will be out of business. They will have no choice. Italy will then be making shoes and suits...nothing wrong with that.

And I tried to end this thread, at least the more contentious parts of it by PMing you, Jeremy. I really don't know why you can't let this matter go, or at least keep it private. My purchase of a bike for myself shouldn't be taken so personally by you. I suppose envy is at the bottom of your failure to drop the matter, but others should not have to suffer.

k.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*mtbbmet: I've seen the sponsor list by apex*



mtbbmet said:


> This information is on the very last page of the 2010 catalogue, in a very well presented format. Any one who did even a small amount of research if they were considering buying an EPS would have, at minimum, picked up a brochure on the brand. Unless they were never really buying one in the first place, or were really dense.
> In no way is this directed at you Apex. Thanks for posting info for those too lazy and ill informed to look for it themselves.


It's incomplete, but a good start. Too bad you couldn't come up with a list on your own, mtbbmet. Everyone involved in this thread knows to whom you are referring with your insults. Why no obscenities or are they just for PMs?

A more complete sponsor list, which I'd seen before the list posted by apex, don't think is entirely relevant to the purchase of a frame, but is entirely relevant to Colnago snobs, is at Wikipedia and presented below. Couldn't you find a list on your own, mtbbmet? If need help finding information, just PM me and I'll try to help you. Both you and JeremyP are a little too emotionally and negatively invested in what was, in the end, my decision to purchase a Dogma instead of a EPS. Perhaps you need professional help.

Colnago-sponsored teams since 1968:
1968 - 1973 Molteni
1969 - 1978 SCIC
1975-1976 Zonca-Santini
1975 - 1979 Kas Campagnolo
1977 Ijsboerke-Colnago
1977 Kanel-Colnago
1978 Mecap-Selle Italia
1978 - 1979 Miniflat-ys-vdb-Colnago
1978 Intercontinentale
1979 Sapa
1979 Inoxpran
1979 Lano-Boul d'Or
1980 Boule d'Or Colnago Studio Casa
1980 Gis Gelati
1980 - 1981 Sunair Sport 80 Colnago
1980 Splendor
1981 Gis Campagnolo
1981 - 1983 Boule d'Or Colnago Studio Casa
1982 - 1988 Del Tongo Colnago
1984 Kwantum Colnago
1984 Safir Colnago
1985 Kwantum Hallen
1985 Safir van den Ven Colnago
1985 Tonissteiner Saxon
1986 Kwantum Sport Shop
1986 Miko Tonissteiner Fevrier
1986 Roland van den Ven Colnago
1987 - 1988 Roland Colnago
1987 Superconfex Kwantum Colnago
1988 - 1989 Superconfex
1988 Panasonic Isostar
1989 Panasonic
1989 Malvor Sidi Colnago
1989 - 1990 Alfalum
1990 - 1992 Buckler
1990 La William
1990 Diana Colnago
1990 Clas
1991 - 1993 Clas Cajatur
1991 - 1993 Ariostea
1991 Colnago Lampre Sopran
1992 Lampre Colnago Animex
1993 - 1994 Word Perfect
1993 Lampre Polti
1993 - 1999 Tonissteiner Colnago Saxon
1994 - 1995 Lampre Panaria
1994 Mapei Class
1994 Novell Software
1995 - 1997 Mapei GB
1996 Panaria Vinavil
1996 - 2008 Rabobank
1996 - 1997 Casino
1998 Mapei Bricobi
1999 - 2002 Mapei Quick.Step
1999 Lampre Daikin
2001 Coast
2001 - 2006 Landbouwkrediet Colnago
2001 - 2007 Navigators
2005 - 2007 Panaria Navigare
2005 Domina Vacanze
2005 Action
2005 Skil Shimano
2005 - 2008 Milram
2007 - 2008 Tinkoff
2007 - 2010 Landbouwkrediet-Tonissteiner
2010 BBox-Bouyoges Telecom
2010 Team Type 1
2010 Colnago-CSF Inox

Happy holidays,
k.


----------



## JeremyP

koyaanisqatsi, I do not care about your purchase one iota, what I and the rest of the members care about is your 'assertion' that Colnago is acting unethically.

Fact: you contacted me via pm, i offered great advice, which you disagreed on. The purpose of your pm's to members were to garner support for you view. Basically, if they disagreed, they were wrong. You are obviously right on all accounts...

Then you question my knowledge of bikes, yet my posts speak for themselves. You even mention you are a somewhat novice on 'high end' bikes, yet you lecture me on what a bicycle magazine writes? Once again, I really do not care about your purchase, but I do care when in your words, you make 'assertions' as to how I'm thinking.

My last piece of advice: I think you will find the 90mm a bit short for the 53.5tt Dogma, go with 110mm or maybe bars with less reach if you have a short torso, like the Zero100s which I believe are 20mm less.


----------



## koyaanisqatsi

*Jbartmc: I agree in part*



Jbartmc said:


> The Dogma will be an outstanding bike, as any bike should be at the $5,000 price range. As for Bicycling Magazine Editor's Picks, I take its recommendations with a small grain of salt because many of the items it reviews favorably are made by advertisers that buy multi-page spreads in its magazine. Also, I do not think I have ever read a bad review in it. It is a pretty good magazine, but the only review that matters for you is what you think of your bike once it arrives and you ride it.


But Bicycling Magazine is unlikely to offend any manufacturer. Typically bike reviews give "Pros" and "Cons" for a frame/bike. The same is done in magazines that review motor vehicles, stereo equipment, audio/video equipment, etc. They are all shills for the types of products that they review. In the old "Stereo Review Magazine", now married to its sister magazine known as "Video" and renamed "Sound and Vision", the reviewer Julian Hirsch simply said, that if a stereo component performed unacceptably, its review would not even appear in the magazine. But strengths and weaknesses of any component were always listed if the component was mentioned and reviewed. "Men's Health" is a shill for many products of dubious value. FRS is one such product that independent studies have shown provides no performance benefit, either for elite athletes or average people--there is no performance difference between those who were given FRS and a placebo. But I think it would be foolish to completely ignore Bicycling Magazine's reviews. And it would be foolish to think that individual people are unbiased. All people are biased. "Yes, I have a Colnago EPS and it's not so good?" Please!

Your point that I'll only know if the Dogma is right for me one I've rode it and lived with it a while is quite true. The same is true of the EPS. There are no high-end LBSs, especially for Pinarello or Colnago, near me. A test ride of either bike was not an option.

I've written here many times that the Prince/Dogma and EPS frames/bikes are all very good. I've never claimed that the Dogma is superior to every other frame on the market in every possible way. And it is perfectly possible to do a full bike build based on any frame that will cause the frame to perform abysmally and the unfortunate rider to simply hate the bike and the frame. That I saw the elite pros ride the Prince/Dogma in two Grand Tours and a couple European classics in 2009 convinced me that those frames are fine frames, well worth having. I objected to and still object to Colnago's business practices...the main reason I went with the Dogma. I've made that crystal clear. Others here may not see things my way OR they may live with no ethical constraints...not my business to judge other people's purchases, even if other people think it is their business to judge my purchases.

But for those people wetting themselves over my purchase of the Dogma, they better start wearing diapers because that deal is a done deal.

Resolved: We all agree that the EPS PRZA is available for 2010, maybe only exclusively thru R&A (in the U.S.) as they claim to think, maybe through all dealers but that's doubtful, maybe only through... Someone should contact some retailers to get the truth, if they care that is.

Cheers,
k.

"Can't We All Just Get Along?" --Rodney King


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## koyaanisqatsi

*jeremy: Say what?*



JeremyP said:


> koyaanisqatsi, I do not care about your purchase one iota, what I and the rest of the members care about is your 'assertion' that Colnago is acting unethically.
> 
> Fact: you contacted me via pm, i offered great advice, which you disagreed on. The purpose of your pm's to members were to garner support for you view. Basically, if they disagreed, they were wrong. You are obviously right on all accounts...
> 
> Then you question my knowledge of bikes, yet my posts speak for themselves. You even mention you are a somewhat novice on 'high end' bikes, yet you lecture me on what a bicycle magazine writes? Once again, I really do not care about your purchase, but I do care when in your words, you make 'assertions' as to how I'm thinking.
> 
> My last piece of advice: I think you will find the 90mm a bit short for the 53.5tt Dogma, go with 110mm or maybe bars with less reach if you have a short torso, like the Zero100s which I believe are 20mm less.


You posts do speak for themselves. They tell me that you know little more than I do, that rely only on other riders and industry insiders for your information. That's not really knowledge on your part.

I contacted you via PM to take things offline. You offered great advice? You do have a high opinion of yourself. Only you and mtbbmet seem to have problems with my POV. But I come back here to find subtle and not-so-subtle criticisms of me and my choices. You could have kept it all offline in PMs, but you didn't. So I respond in kind.

Now you give advice on stem length based on zero knowledge of my personal physical dimensions. Did you want to change my frame size as well? Crank length? The frame size and component dimensions were taken in part from my custom fitted Lynskey (that person had done hundreds of customer bike fits) as well as a couple hours of discussion with the salesperson at Wrench Science. Somehow, you think you know better? Do you think that is a realistic position to take by you.

k.


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## JeremyP

Your hood position remains unchanged no? Yes, please free to highlight the 'bad advice' provided. And yes, I believe you should be more accepting than one opinion, as with the Colnago colours and with fitting. 

Just to sum up everything in a nutshell, you are right in everything, and everyone is with you besides myself and mtbbmet. Anyone who disagrees with you is clearly wrong, and a hack and wait for it, has no ethics... I cannot compete with that. As I've always stated, I and others have wanted to help, but clearly help or and advice contrary to what you have heard from Bicycling magazine or WS is not on.

Perhaps in a few years we will be on the same wavelength. (this is not a joke) It is ironic that the bike's name from WS is 'Dogma'. I will also purchase a Pinarello when they release the 'Narcissist' 100.1. (this is a joke)


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## mtbbmet

JeremyP said:


> Perhaps in a few years we will be on the same wavelength. (this is not a joke) It is ironic that the bike's name from WS is 'Dogma'. I will also purchase a Pinarello when they release the 'Narcissist' 100.1. (this is a joke)


Or maybe you should just purchase a 2003 Pinnarello Dogma Ego. Remember that gem?
Nothing says "pro" like being able to check your hair-do on your top tube.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/shows.php?id=tech/2003/shows/eicma/default2


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## chuckice

Someone close this thread.


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## mtbbmet

chuckice said:


> Someone close this thread.


WHAT!!!????
It's just starting to get good.
When someone starts using Bicycling Magazine as diffinitive proof that a certain bike is good you know a party is about to start. This thread is just about to get laterally stiff, yet vertically compliant.
A certain someone is on my ignore list, so I'm just going by JeremyP's replies. But I'm assuming that good things are happening. I could be totally wrong.


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## chuckice

Apparently Colnago = Ponzi scheme. /thread


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## koyaanisqatsi

*chuckice, I've been hoping someone would...*



chuckice said:


> Someone close this thread.


close this thread. I assume that the person who started the thread can close it, but I'm not sure. Best thing to do is request "No email notification" under Thread Subscription for this thread.

The thread has become a "food fight" over nothing in particular. But I'll do my part by ignoring JeremyP's and mtbbmet's last posts...that should end the bickering. I will respond to responsible comments if I think I have useful input.

Thanks,
k.


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## nicensleazy

Enjoy your Dogma! 

And may I say, Merry Christmas to you all !!


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Thanks.*



nicensleazy said:


> Enjoy your Dogma!
> 
> And may I say, Merry Christmas to you all !!


I'm certain that I will enjoy the Dogma. I live in Western New York State, not too far from Buffalo. So it will be while before I can enjoy it on the road.


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## nicensleazy

koyaanisqatsi said:


> I'm certain that I will enjoy the Dogma. I live in Western New York State, not too far from Buffalo. So it will be while before I can enjoy it on the road.



I must confess, the more I look at the Dogma the more I like. Not sure I would go and buy one at the moment. For me, its just a shame its made in the far east and I'm not that keen on the glitter on the frame. I'm sure it looks great in BOB colour. Shame it didn't work out for you with a Colnago, maybe next time around!


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## Chris BKK

6.2 kg.....


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## r_mutt

r_mutt said:


> are you girls done?



should have just stopped right there...


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## koyaanisqatsi

*The Dogma would be a good choice...*



nicensleazy said:


> I must confess, the more I look at the Dogma the more I like. Not sure I would go and buy one at the moment. For me, its just a shame its made in the far east and I'm not that keen on the glitter on the frame. I'm sure it looks great in BOB colour. Shame it didn't work out for you with a Colnago, maybe next time around!


The EPS would be a good frame as well. I'm not sure that where the Dogma is made makes any real difference. The frame simply needs to be well made, regardless of where it is made. Taiwan has been the place of manufacture of high-tech items for years. I'm confident that they can make a very good bike frame, especially with Pinarello inspecting each frame made. Note that Colnago has had some frames made in Taiwan, most notably the CLX. If you go to Smart Cycles, you can still find several steel frame bikes (Torelli, CIOCC, Coppi, Caserati, and others) manufactured the traditional hand-made way by master craftsmen (craftspeople?). And steel is still a very good frame material...lasts forever and doesn't have as great a weight disadvantage as most people think. The Cinelli Super Corsa steel frame is still available AFAIK.

Some people who have purchased the 2010 Dogma 60.1 express objection to the silver "glitter" on the Black/Silver/Red initially, but they tend to like it after a while. The Team Sky color Dogma (nice image in DOGMA 60.1 vs PRINCE - FULL REVIEW thread) is very nice, but I'm not sure that is available to the consumer. See the Pinarello forum. The standard catalogue EPS colors and paint scheme leave me cold. But the MTBK (Wrench Science) is pretty good, and the PRZA (available through R&A Cycles exclusively) and AMOR are very nice and fairly nice, respectively and IMHO.

This is not the best time to buy a foreign made bike. The $ is weak, especially wrt the Euro, so the imported bikes are at an exchange rate disadvantage. But if you want a bike or frame now, you might as well go for it. The exchange rate is an advantage for exports but that doesn't help us in the U.S.

k.


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## meccio

I don't know whether this is still relevant, since the conversation has drifted a bit, but I have just ordered an EPS frame PRZA here in Milan, where I leave. There was some confusion whether the color was still available taljing to different dealers. I called Colnago (the factory), and they gave me the official line. Besides the colors which are visible in the website, the only other option available is PRZA. PR82 and PR00 were available in 2008/2009, but no longer now. So, PRZA is available in Italy. PR00 and PR82 are not available in Italy. Congratulations to Pistapalace which somehow manages to get colors in San Diego which you cannot get in Milan (the Colnago factory is 20 km from Milan).


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## Karbon Kev

EPS in PRZA not available over here in the UK according to official importer anyway.


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## one80

Apparently PRZA isn't available through Mike at Maestro, so hopefully there's a PR82 left my my size at PP, shame they're a lot dearer than Maestro.


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## fabsroman

one80 said:


> Apparently PRZA isn't available through Mike at Maestro, so hopefully there's a PR82 left my my size at PP, shame they're a lot dearer than Maestro.


Can't PP get the PRZA/ I think we went through this very issue ad nauseum right in this thread. I think the OP was finally able to arrange to get one through Wrench Science, but that was after a lot of haggling with them. Ask Kraken if he can get you one in PRZA.


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## iyeoh

I have to admit that I am befuddled by the logic and business practices. I don't understand why a customer can't get his bike in any prior released paint scheme for an upcharge and a patient wait. Its not as though its a loss leading business.


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## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> I have to admit that I am befuddled by the logic and business practices. I don't understand why a customer can't get his bike in any prior released paint scheme for an upcharge and a patient wait. Its not as though its a loss leading business.


I could understand it if it was a production line process and machines needed to be re-tooled in order to paint frames a different scheme, but that is not the case with Colnago since they are hand painted, with the Taiwan frames possibly being an exception.

Whatever happened to Colnago America on this board? He/She was pretty good about answering these types of things.


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## The_Kraken

*This thread lives*

I just woke up from a decade long coma and this thread is still alive. Amazing!!! 

I can NOT speak for Cambiago or Colnago America, BUT given that I've had dealings with doing custom paint as simple as it is, I can tell you that it is MUCH more work than you believe. And that is before any paint even touches the carbon. Or steel, for that matter. (Yes, PR99 in steel has arrived).

But, if you notice, I don't think one dealer that has done custom paint has asked any higher than standard retail for framesets and thus all the extra work put in to produce these framesets is no way recouped. However, it's fun stuff.

Why Colnago doesn't offer any paint from any year? That's a lot of paint to have laying around and while it may seem easy to you and I to do a one off, the painting is done in production runs. Otherwise, it is much too expensive to set up the masking, find the exact paints, and educate the painter on doing a paint scheme that he probably has never done.

Also, I like the fact that once a paint scheme is done, it usually is done. It makes that bike that much more individual and collectable.


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## iyeoh

Actually, WrenchScience asks for $100 premium for the MTBK EPS frame. That's kind of ironic since its the absence of paint that makes it more expensive? Opportunistic price gouging is what it is.

My point is that there must be some price point at which Cambiago can make things happen quickly with no questions asked. 

Crazy Joe is already paying $5,500 for an EPS frame. Say he flashes an extra ten Benjamins (for the benefit of you non-Americans, President Benjamin Franklin is plastered on our hundred dollar bill... and Benjamins is 'hood talk for the said denomination of currency)... perhaps he's a Saudi royal and wouldn't mind throwing in a whole wad of moolah. Would Cambiago actually say "no?" If so, I admire their principles. These are days where you can sell your soul to the devil on Ebay and ship it COD.

However, whatever happened to pleasing the customer? Case in point, you can order your Maybach in doo doo brown and pee pee gold if you so choose, along with purple rims and lime green interior.. at 400 grand per pop.. and they will still make you wait six months to a year to get it.


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## The_Kraken

*Cambiago does say NO.*



iyeoh said:


> Actually, WrenchScience asks for $100 premium for the MTBK EPS frame. That's kind of ironic since its the absence of paint that makes it more expensive? Opportunistic price gouging is what it is.


Oddly enough, Retail on the MTBK should be an additional $250, so Wrench Science is actually selling the MTBK at a discount. I believe there is a lot more prep work into finishing that guy. I dunno....doesn't really make sense to me either. And I'm not sure about the seatpost. I don't know if it is a matte finish. That might make for seat post diameter issues.



iyeoh said:


> Would Cambiago actually say "no?" If so, I admire their principles.


This is kind of funny to me. They say NO to me ALL THE TIME!!! Definitely more no's than yes's. Pista Palace was more than willing to prepay for a minimum of 12 Molteni EPS's. What did Cambiago say? NO. That is what makes that 58 we got so special. They just won't do it. I actually think with the Molteni in particular that it has to do with the decals on the down tube. They are different from our PR82 or PR99 (now officially known by Colnago as the White Palace EPS). So I think those purplish decals may be the problem.

At least we still have plenty of choices and I'm sure that Colnago is listening.


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## Clevor

iyeoh said:


> Crazy Joe is already paying $5,500 for an EPS frame.


And that's in the U.S. The frame is as much as $1,500 less in Europe. But for that price, you can't specify a paint scheme.

Yet there's a poster here who had his C40 painted in the old style WC scheme by a bike shop in Italy that was down the street from the Colnago factory, albeit for around $650.

I guess Ernesto is just playing with our minds . . . or it's the old school way of doing things. 

There was a guy on this forum named EasyRider and if you do a search, you can find him. The guy had all these Colnago frames painted in the USA scheme (Team Disco was asleep they didn't pick up on that!) and other arcane stuff. He was willing to sell a frame to me but it was too large. He said he had a vendor in Canada who was 'in' with Colnago and could get the paint jobs done. Mysteriously, EasyRider disappeared from this forum around 3-4 years ago, deleting pictures of all his frames. Maybe he got out of road cycling.

Who know's what's going on. But at least Colnago is offering those watchamacallit schemes with the Colnago man on the top tube. Who knows, the PRA scheme may show up in the future .


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## WrenchScienceCliff

Ignore the rumors - Wrench Science can get you one...Zabel, or just about any color scheme that Colnago does. Shoot me an email if you need: cliff[at]wrenchscience[dot]com


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## fabsroman

WrenchScienceCliff said:


> Ignore the rumors - Wrench Science can get you one...Zabel, or just about any color scheme that Colnago does. Shoot me an email if you need: cliff[at]wrenchscience[dot]com


Now that is what I like to see. Retailers on chat boards clearing all this poo up.


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## mtbbmet

fabsroman said:


> Now that is what I like to see. Retailers on chat boards clearing all this poo up.


You mean like in post #3 of this thread way back in November?


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## fabsroman

mtbbmet said:


> You mean like in post #3 of this thread way back in November?


Well, if you kept on reading all the way down to post #6 from way back in November 2009, you will see that the Kraken's post was brought into question by a poster stating that Wrench Science could not provide the Zabel paint scheme in an EPS. Now, what I was commenting on was Wrench Science coming on here and addressing that issue. Seems like Wrench Science, Pista Palace, and possibly other retailers can supply the 2010 EPS in PRZA - Zabel.


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## iyeoh

In this economy, its hard to believe that any retailer won't be willing to supply anything they possibly can. For a proper price, I bet even old man Ernesto would capitulate.


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## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> In this economy, its hard to believe that any retailer won't be willing to supply anything they possibly can. For a proper price, I bet even old man Ernesto would capitulate.


Yep, this economy sucks world wide and I am willing to bet that the demand for $4,000+ Colnago frames is probably less than it was 2 years ago.


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## WrenchScienceCliff

I can tell you that demand has dropped somewhat, but that Colnago has more staying power than a lot of our other brands. Their tradition and stability is something that people are seeking. We're doing quite well with them at WS, major growth in 2009.


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## JeremyP

Some economies around the world are doing just fine. ;-)


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## fabsroman

JeremyP said:


> Some economies around the world are doing just fine. ;-)


Really, because from what I am reading most economies around the world aren't doing that great. I'm sure there are exceptions that are doing just fine, but comparing the 2009/2010 world economies to the pre-recession world economies, I think you would find several that are struggling. Alas, I do not want to get into an economic debate in the Colnago forum. Bad enough in the Politics Only forum.


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## fabsroman

WrenchScienceCliff said:


> I can tell you that demand has dropped somewhat, but that Colnago has more staying power than a lot of our other brands. Their tradition and stability is something that people are seeking. We're doing quite well with them at WS, major growth in 2009.


Yeah, but the sole experience at Wrench Science isn't a good indicator of what Colnago as a whole is experiencing. No doubt that they will survive this downturn better than most other bike manufacturers because of their history, etc. However, I'm willing to bet that sales are down for them over the past 2 calendar years (i.e., 2008 & 2009). Who really knows and I doubt we will ever really find out without looking at Colnago's tax return.


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## The_Kraken

*This thread is Immortal*

Pista Palace never knows which way the economy wind blows. Honestly, and I mean this sincerely and not arrogantly, we don't care. We are having some fun down here. I will tell you that one week ago we received our first 7 White Palace EPS's. Well, we only have 2 left. No discounts. And they were dispersed to the four winds. Let's see...Los Angeles, Kentucky, Santa Barbara, Australia, and Taiwan. So I guess we had a good week with the EPS. A couple of MTBK's to boot!
<P>
I truly believe that if you are passionate about anything it will have longevity. Besides, when you love building up Italian masterpieces, it just never gets old. It is sick, but I truly do think about insane bike builds when I go to sleep at night. I know...sad.
<P>
But now, let me tell you of another creation that will blow you all away.......It shall be called:

SUPERCAMPIONISSIMO!

Oh yes! Paolo Bettini has requested that Pista Palace provide him with a Colnago for a week while he is visiting for the Gran Fondo. Our White Palace EPS in 48 sloping will be a starting place. Get ready, this bike is gonna blow you away.


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## fabsroman

The_Kraken said:


> Pista Palace never knows which way the economy wind blows. Honestly, and I mean this sincerely and not arrogantly, we don't care. We are having some fun down here. I will tell you that one week ago we received our first 7 White Palace EPS's. Well, we only have 2 left. No discounts. And they were dispersed to the four winds. Let's see...Los Angeles, Kentucky, Santa Barbara, Australia, and Taiwan. So I guess we had a good week with the EPS. A couple of MTBK's to boot!
> 
> 
> I truly believe that if you are passionate about anything it will have longevity. Besides, when you love building up Italian masterpieces, it just never gets old. It is sick, but I truly do think about insane bike builds when I go to sleep at night. I know...sad.
> 
> 
> But now, let me tell you of another creation that will blow you all away.......It shall be called:
> 
> SUPERCAMPIONISSIMO!
> 
> Oh yes! Paolo Bettini has requested that Pista Palace provide him with a Colnago for a week while he is visiting for the Gran Fondo. Our White Palace EPS in 48 sloping will be a starting place. Get ready, this bike is gonna blow you away.


Yep, but at least you spared me the "being in a coma for 10 years" comment. I cringe every time I see this thread and my 3T thread come up, yet I cannot resist posting to them.

Honestly, and I mean this sincerely and not arrogantly, the reason why you do not care which way the economic wind blows is because you are not having trouble paying the rent and keeping the lights on. Kudos to you, and congratulations for having a great time doing what you are doing. However, if business were faltering and your family were to be effected as a result, I'm willing to bet you would care.

Like you, I don't really care much either except for the diminution in our retirement funds and the loss in equity in our house. As far as business is concerned, I'm busier now with this economy than I was before it. Seems as though everybody is suing everybody over money and then people that have lost their jobs are looking at starting their own businesses. Luckily, I like what I do too, but I would equally like building Italian masterpieces using others money while turning a profit. Heck, that is half the reason for the bunch of bikes I have. I'm always fighting the itch to build another. Problem is, I can't throw my current carrier to the wind to open a bike shop. Maybe, just maybe, when the kids are older.

I'll be looking forward to seeing pics of the Supercampionissimo. My cousins live in the LA area. When/If I make it out there, I'll have to stop by your shop in San Diego. Read the "Passion" portion of your website, and my hat is off to you.


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## Karbon Kev

What the heck happened to the Pumpkin dude? Everyone is waiting for that one i feel and I also feel it will sell much more if going ahead ......


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## Salsa_Lover

[NECROPOSTING]I'd like an C59 or EPQ traditional on a AD22, can that be done ?[/ NECROPOSTING]


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## Jbartmc

I have a 60 cm PRZA for sale . . .


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## varian72

iyeoh said:


> In this economy, its hard to believe that any retailer won't be willing to supply anything they possibly can. For a proper price, I bet even old man Ernesto would capitulate.


I realize I'm quoting someone from a long time ago, but when something is not profitable you don't do it no matter how bad the economy is. Somethings just don't make sense period if they upset existing business as well.

Just sayin'.


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## fabsroman

Jbartmc said:


> I have a 60 cm PRZA for sale . . .


Decided to sell the blueheaded twin and keep the redheaded one?

What are you getting to replace it?


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