# Time for a new tour de france



## pr0230 (Jun 4, 2004)

While this TDF was set up for an historic battle in the hills, I believe it is quite apparent that Froome will take the next 3-4 tours with out any competition. What has become very exciting is the flat stage challenges where the peloton is broken into many groups. And the up hill sprints also change the dynamics of the sprint... SO , some suggestions for a NEW TDF...

Shorten each stage by 25 miles, roughly one hour of ride time per day. Why: I believe the riders will have more energy to attack. 

Have two Time trials in each tour: A Team and Individual. A bit selfish on my part as I always enjoy seeing the TTT team effort. 

Only two mountain stages. The gc riders are just getting thru the mountains boring. This is not to say we could not have hilly stages with a bunch of 4 and 3 category hills...

I'd like to see ONE cyclo cross stage...


----------



## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

I vote for hidden trap doors sprinkled throughout stages... or maybe a giant robotic arm like in those coin operated grab a toy machines.... wiley coyote style painted fake tunnels after forks in the road.....oil slicks......

I too thought that the mountains were boring this year.

Ban Quintanta from next years tour on grounds of not planning to attack, ever.


----------



## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Stage lengths are too long the same way the MLB baseball season is too long. 

You know it should be shorter.
The participants in the sport know it should be shorter.

But the money to be made precludes it from being shorter.


----------



## PJay (May 28, 2004)

They already have the team format. I think the perfect idea is to add some roller-derby in there, where teams protect one rider to cross the finish line first, and the teams get to shove each other around.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Require all riders to have to stop and have a beer or wine glass at every winery/bar the route passes, and a one-bar-per-town/city minimum.


----------



## PJay (May 28, 2004)

But seriously: Froome's domination: any other team is free to pursue the strategy that is working for Sky. And was a big part of Lance's domination.

That is to form a team that focuses mainly on winning the TdF. LA and Postal/Radio Shack never tried to dominate the Giro or other rides. And they did not aim to win sprint stages.

This is what Sky is doing, but no one else is really doing. Eight guys devoted to getting a ninth, very strong rider on the podium.

This year shows that Froome can be defeated; he and Sky did get isolated at times, and at those times there was the opportunity for a challenger to defeat Froome.

I think the case can be made that Valverde could very well have been a challenger, if he did not devote so much effort to the Giro, and if Quinata was Valverde's domestique.

Yates is young. Porte is with a new team...

Froome may be a lock. Make sure to jot him down in the 2017 TdF predictions thread, then at this time next year, we will all be saying, "pr0230 called it an entire year in advance!"


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

PJay said:


> ...the teams get to shove each other around.


Cav already got that memo...


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

PJay said:


> But seriously: Froome's domination: any other team is free to pursue the strategy that is working for Sky. And was a big part of Lance's domination.
> 
> That is to form a team that focuses mainly on winning the TdF. LA and Postal/Radio Shack never tried to dominate the Giro or other rides. And they did not aim to win sprint stages.
> 
> ...


No joke PJay. I called it first a few days ago in your thread. You are so spot on. Sky has the same approach LA had. One race. Whole team pointed to a single July goal. Built around that one thing and paid well for their contributions. Sky didn't invent this approach, they took a winning formula and made it their own.


----------



## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

Find the next American Lance Armstrong now, to annihilate Froome


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Skewer said:


> Find the next American Lance Armstrong now, to annihilate Froome


I don't think that is what we need.


----------



## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

No Alpe d'Huez, Glandon, Galibier, Croix de Fer, Telegraphe, Luz Ardiden. Enough said. TdFs have been boring since Armstrong started his run.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

GKSki said:


> No Alpe d'Huez, Glandon, Galibier, Croix de Fer, Telegraphe, Luz Ardiden. Enough said. TdFs have been boring since Armstrong started his run.


...only if all you care about is the GC...which historically has been boring for decades. It is only relatively recently that the GC was THE contest everyone cared about to the exclusion of all else.


----------



## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

There is one huge downside to Sky's approach. 

Gambling everything on one race risks a failed season if something bad happens. An unavoidable crash, illness, terrorist attack, natural disaster, Mont Ventoux . Fortunately (for Sky) that wasn't the disaster it could have been. Some things are just outside of your control. You can do everything perfect, and still lose the race.

But to the OP's point, I agree. I'm bored to tears with stage racing. Especially three week long stage races. Give me some awesome spring classics and I'll be happy.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

Migen21 said:


> I'm bored to tears with stage racing.


feel the same way about pro basketball...luckily, no one forces me to watch the games.


----------



## viciouscycle (Aug 22, 2009)

I wish I could remember the rider and the team, but early on, say stages 7-10, he said the he was unable to convince any other team to try and work with his team to take on team Sky and beat them up. His comment was that no one was trying to win the tour, they just seemed happy for a single stage win at best. He was very frustrated to say the least...."why did they even come to the tour"...


----------



## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Can we get PJay to comment on PJay's post to see if he has good points?

It definitely seems like absolute focus on one GC rider gives an advantage to Sky. That's a lot of eggs in one basket, which can crash out, but it's worked more often than not for them.

I wonder how different it might have been if Contador hadn't gotten hurt, and if he truly could have challenged (not saying he could). Tinkoff's multi-pronged strategy seemed to pay off for them, although I guess they don' t have a real sprinter (who needs that if you have you-know-who). 

I was pretty engrossed in this year's tour, but the Alps ended up disappointing with nobody to contend against Froome other than a wet white paint line on the road.

Oh and I usually find the mountains more exciting than flats and you can't necessarily bank on crazy crosswinds happening, but Stage 11 was a pleasant surprise for viewers (if not for riders).

Maybe one cobbled stage and bring back a TTT stage?

PS Just kidding, but let the riders lash out at idiot fans on mountain stages without repercussion, that would make mountain stages more interesting.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

jetdog9 said:


> Tinkoff's multi-pronged strategy seemed to pay off for them, although I guess they don' t have a real sprinter (who needs that if you have you-know-who).


Tinkoff had no real sprinter???

Who is the guy who routinely beat Kittel, Greipel, Kristoff, Coquard, Matthews in the majority of the sprints those guys contested? I think he had a GREEN JERSEY on that read Tinkoff IIRC


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I think he had a GREEN JERSEY on that read Tinkoff IIRC


well, to be fair, some days he was wearing a white jersey with rainbow stripes. It can confusing.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Fewer TT please!

This year's Tour was exciting right up .. until the TT basically ended the GC fight. In the most boring way possible: an ITT. Seriously, the ITT just moved Froome from seconds to a minute ahead to multiple minutes ahead and game over.

If I were kind of the world, I would outlaw all TT in Ground Tours! And more mountains, and much larger time bonuses please.


----------



## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Fewer TT please!
> 
> This year's Tour was exciting right up .. until the TT basically ended the GC fight. In the most boring way possible: an ITT. Seriously, the ITT just moved Froome from seconds to a minute ahead to multiple minutes ahead and game over.
> 
> If I were kind of the world, I would outlaw all TT in Ground Tours! And more mountains, and much larger time bonuses please.


Nah --- all the great TDF legends could TT and climb well. 

SKY had the largest budget. Assembled a great team (riders, managers, coaches, support staff) in support of a superior rider who, like Jacques, Eddie, Bernard, Greg, and Miguel were all Da Patron of their era's. 

Sure I'd love to see another last day TT into Paris deciding a few second victory, or some other rendition thereof, but the TDF is as much an institution as it is a bicycle race.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

troutmd said:


> Nah --- all the great TDF legends could TT and climb well.
> 
> SKY had the largest budget. Assembled a great team (riders, managers, coaches, support staff) in support of a superior rider who, like Jacques, Eddie, Bernard, Greg, and Miguel were all Da Patron of their era's.
> 
> Sure I'd love to see another last day TT into Paris deciding a few second victory, or some other rendition thereof, but the TDF is as much an institution as it is a bicycle race.


Great post. I'm no fan of Froome but I struggle because I'm a Wiggins fan. I'll be rooting hard in Rio! He looked great at the Worlds. I'm conflicted about the team. But you bet, they build to win this race. They risk everything on Froomie and work like a machine. Yeah, they kind of suck some life out of the race because they are an an android. But they are so good. And Froome planned on taking time descending. Extra gear and all. Breakaway with Sagan... Awesome. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## PJay (May 28, 2004)

PJay said:


> But seriously: Froome's domination: any other team is free to pursue the strategy that is working for Sky. And was a big part of Lance's domination.
> 
> That is to form a team that focuses mainly on winning the TdF. LA and Postal/Radio Shack never tried to dominate the Giro or other rides. And they did not aim to win sprint stages.
> 
> ...


Those are some great points, Pjay.
I would add another, but the thread would get moved to another forum.


----------



## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

PJay said:


> Those are some great points, Pjay.
> I would add another, but the thread would get moved to another forum.


The "PJay is Awesome" forum?


----------



## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

Give the riders weapons or tazers to take out the a**holes that run along, just trying to get on camera, and interfere with them. That I would watch all day long!


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

A sprinter's Tour. 20 flat stages!


----------



## coldash (May 7, 2012)

Sky certainly focus on one rider in the GTs but they don't just focus on the TdF. They won their first monument this year and Thomas and Standard have competed and won in the northern early season races. Sky put out a strong team for the Giro but Landa was not in good shape (which allowed Nieve to show his class with a great stage win).

Unfortunately too many people see the TdF as the be all and end all of pro cycling (just look at the traffic on this site for example) and until the media and the fans look beyond the TdF, it will continue to dominate (and distort) pro cycling.


----------



## pr0230 (Jun 4, 2004)

I know you were not serious, but think about it.... Stage 11 was the most exciting stage in the the tour this year... If we had a tour with all stage 11's... I could live with that...


----------



## pr0230 (Jun 4, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Tinkoff had no real sprinter???
> 
> Who is the guy who routinely beat Kittel, Greipel, Kristoff, Coquard, Matthews in the majority of the sprints those guys contested? I think he had a GREEN JERSEY on that read Tinkoff IIRC


Peter Second...


----------



## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

What we need is a Tour with 18 straight days of 60 minute crits. Day 19 will be swimsuits, and the final day will be evening wear.

It will be fantastic. Super classy. Trust me, you'll love it.

Or... we could let the Tour be the Tour.


----------



## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

I think the only legitimate, plausible options are to A) reduce the number of riders per team to 7 or so, and B) reduce the stage length (similar to the Vuelta and Giro). 

Either of those alone could produce more nerve-wracking, unpredictable situations. Together they might cause the craziness some spectators seem so desperate for.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

troutmd said:


> Nah --- all the great TDF legends could TT and climb well.
> 
> SKY had the largest budget. Assembled a great team (riders, managers, coaches, support staff) in support of a superior rider who, like Jacques, Eddie, Bernard, Greg, and Miguel were all Da Patron of their era's.
> 
> Sure I'd love to see another last day TT into Paris deciding a few second victory, or some other rendition thereof, but the TDF is as much an institution as it is a bicycle race.


well I agree TT has been part of the Ground Tour mix for half a century now, and it ain't going away. However I for one would rather it was removed. I don't get why it is popular other than I realize that ITT is an important part of racer development right down to the beginner level, and in many places a weekly ITT is the only plausible way to have easy to organize club races, I probably did a hundred of them - and hated all but one (the only one I won!)

The Tour did not always have ITT!


----------



## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> I think the only legitimate, plausible options are to A) reduce the number of riders per team to 7 or so, and B) reduce the stage length (similar to the Vuelta and Giro).


Not sure about the stage lengths, but I agree 100% that they need to drastically reduce the team size. I'd suggest 4 riders rather than 7. Side benefit is that more teams could enter, thereby maintaining the same total size of the field and allowing lesser-known Euro Pro teams to compete and gain exposure.

Mainly, though, it would prevent Froome (or other GC guy) from being dragged around every single stage surrounded by 8 henchmen, enough to completely block the whole damn road if need be to prevent other teams from mounting attacks. That's crazy (and boring).


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

I can't get past how much I love this race. It's THE race, no matter what we want to think... I get the Sky approach, and it is high risk, high return. I love the history, pageantry, tradition... All of it. I think not making Froome deal with running away from his bike will lose lots of marginal viewers... The dramatic, the 1/1000, the spectacular... That got lost on this tour by a decision of the jury. That will cripple the event. Not that one decision, but that philosophy in the sport. Watching a mostly boring sport for moments of amazing is what the tour is about. They killed that. Bad move. Otherwise, the machine rolls on. It's an awesome event. The most grueling endurance event in all major sport. There are so many things I love that eclipse the weird private ownership WWF part of the equation. I love the race and I wouldn't be running to change a thing. It is The Tour.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

bike981 said:


> I'd suggest 4 riders rather than 7.
> 
> Mainly, though, it would prevent Froome (or other GC guy) from being dragged around every single stage surrounded by 8 henchmen, enough to completely block the whole damn road if need be to prevent other teams from mounting attacks. That's crazy (and boring).


It's not really possible to stop attacks unless the GC guy on your team has the legs to do it. The power of having teammates with your leader on a climb is not to 'block attacks' or somehow stop people from attacking. If the opponents have the legs, they will be able to attack and pt time into your leader .. unless he has legs too.

The teammates merely help to play the chess game. First they can ensure the leader is protected from what little wind there is to fight in the mountains. Second, they help to 'pace' the leader, give him a wheel to cling onto psychologically, and also make a pace that is so fast no one feels they can attack - but the leader still has to have the legs for it. Third they can do their own little attacks or counter-attacks to draw out the opponents in hopes of making them blow up or get unhitched from the yellow jersey group. Fourth: they provide help in a crash, blowout, etc - that turned out to be absolutely crucial this year Saved Froome, cost Porte the podium!



The climbing teammates help in a small way only. Some TDF winners have done it without much help at all, and I feel Froome has the kind of legs he could easily win this race solo, if he doesn't need help in the event of a crash.


----------



## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

BCSaltchucker said:


> well I agree TT has been part of the Ground Tour mix for half a century now, and it ain't going away. However I for one would rather it was removed. I don't get why it is popular other than I realize that ITT is an important part of racer development right down to the beginner level, and in many places a weekly ITT is the only plausible way to have easy to organize club races, I probably did a hundred of them - and hated all but one (the only one I won!)
> 
> The Tour did not always have ITT!


OK let's ditch the "race of truth" so we can have the race of climbers traveling in the slipstream of their temamates.


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

bike981 said:


> Not sure about the stage lengths, but I agree 100% that they need to drastically reduce the team size. I'd suggest 4 riders rather than 7.


So then we'd have 48 team cars following the peloton? 

I do like how the TdF has taken note from the Giro and Vuelta and tried to mix it up and add volatility, instead of the traditional weekend mountain visits at the end of weeks 1 and 2. Otherwise, I like it how it is, add a cobble stage every other year, sprinkle in a TTT every once in a while. Maybe a mountain stage on the next to last day sometimes. I do like the time bonuses on the flat stages though.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

pr0230 said:


> I know you were not serious, but think about it.... Stage 11 was the most exciting stage in the the tour this year... If we had a tour with all stage 11's... I could live with that...


And Froome wouldn't win.


----------



## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

PBL450 said:


> I can't get past how much I love this race. It's THE race, no matter what we want to think... I get the Sky approach, and it is high risk, high return. I love the history, pageantry, tradition... All of it. I think not making Froome deal with running away from his bike will lose lots of marginal viewers... The dramatic, the 1/1000, the spectacular... That got lost on this tour by a decision of the jury. That will cripple the event. Not that one decision, but that philosophy in the sport. Watching a mostly boring sport for moments of amazing is what the tour is about. They killed that. Bad move. Otherwise, the machine rolls on. It's an awesome event. The most grueling endurance event in all major sport. There are so many things I love that eclipse the weird private ownership WWF part of the equation. I love the race and I wouldn't be running to change a thing. It is The Tour.


The race was effectively stopped and time gaps given at the point that Porte hit the motorbike. Whatever happened after that was "post race", thus running without a bike was not part of the race. The jury did the fairest thing they could do in that situation IMO. If not for the wreck Porte & Froome likely would have increased the gap.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

A criterium stage on recumbents.


----------



## racerx (Jan 29, 2004)

Instead of a New Tour, perhaps they should have "old tours"...


Each day of the tour would represent a tour stage from the past.

For example;
Epic stages are selected from all past TdF's.

The routes would have to be as identical as possible to original.

The former winner of the stage has his time calculated to determine where the former rider would be along the route.

During the race, that former stage winner from the past would have his image computer 
generated and included in or leading the current race.

Imagine seeing Hinault battle it out on the screen with Froome in the mountains...

With today's technology I think it could be done. I would be glued to every stage in the hopes of seeing some of today's riders competing with the legends...


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

racerx said:


> Instead of a New Tour, perhaps they should have "old tours"...
> 
> 
> Each day of the tour would represent a tour stage from the past.
> ...


1903, first TdF - 6 stages, each between 167 miles and 293 miles, 4 stages 260+ miles

1905 - 11 stages, 5 stages 186+ miles (no more night riding, and they started scoring on points instead of time)

1913 - 15 stages, all stages 202 to 290 miles long! 7 mountain stages! They went back to the time system instead of points and kept that format ever since. Winning time was 26.7 kph/16.6 mph.

Back then riders had to support themselves - there's an epic story, and to quote Wiki:

The crucial stage proved to be the sixth. At the start of the sixth stage, last year's winner Defraye lead the general classification, some 5 minutes ahead of Eugène Christophe.[3] In that sixth stage, the first mountains were climbed. Defraye was dropped quickly, and Christophe lead the race.[5] Christophe came up first on the Aubisque, and in second place behind Philippe Thys on the Tourmalet. On the way down from the Tourmalet, Christophe was hit by a race vehicle,[10] and his fork broke, rendering his bike unusable, and the rules said that he had to repair it himself. He walked more than 10 km down to the next village, and found a place where he could repair his bicycle. He worked on it for over three hours, being watched by race officials who made sure that he was not helped by anyone. When Christophe asked a small boy to work the bellows, he was fined with ten minutes.[5] After his bicycle was fixed, he rode away and finished the stage, 3 hours and 50 minutes later than the stage winner Thys. Christophe's chances to win the 1913 Tour de France were over
Riders had to be self supported in those times. 

I'm pretty sure they didn't use helmets back then either.


----------



## racerx (Jan 29, 2004)

*This is what I'm talking about...*



ogre said:


> 1903, first TdF - 6 stages, each between 167 miles and 293 miles, 4 stages 260+ miles
> 
> 1905 - 11 stages, 5 stages 186+ miles (no more night riding, and they started scoring on points instead of time)
> 
> ...


This was epic stuff indeed. Maybe we could get Mark Burnett to put together the course for next year.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> I can't get past how much I love this race. It's THE race, no matter what we want to think... I get the Sky approach, and it is high risk, high return. I love the history, pageantry, tradition... All of it. I think not making Froome deal with running away from his bike will lose lots of marginal viewers... The dramatic, the 1/1000, the spectacular... That got lost on this tour by a decision of the jury. That will cripple the event. Not that one decision, but that philosophy in the sport. Watching a mostly boring sport for moments of amazing is what the tour is about. They killed that. Bad move. Otherwise, the machine rolls on. It's an awesome event. The most grueling endurance event in all major sport. There are so many things I love that eclipse the weird private ownership WWF part of the equation. I love the race and I wouldn't be running to change a thing. It is The Tour.


It's only THE race if you are French, American, or from a number of other countries. The show for Belgians and their neighbors is absolutely the Classics, for Italians it is very much the Giro, etc.


----------

