# Did UCI question Di2 at introduction?



## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

During the Tour coverage I thought I heard some announcer mention an integrated battery. Of course they were talking about in the seat post for Di2, but to the casual observer of the sport they may have wondered about Cancellara-style cheater motors. Everything I've heard from pros on the Di2 is certain shifts and less effort and that's my experience. It got me thinking if it saves even a watt per shift it would add up over a long race and maybe it is a sort of cheating.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Good question. If they watch out for saddle tilt, I'm sure they must have said something about Di2.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

No, because the issue had been settled when Mavic brought out Zap in 1987.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

danl1 said:


> No, because the issue had been settled when Mavic brought out Zap in 1987.


I forgot about the Mavic, but good point. My main training partner back in the 90's had Zap but it never seemed to work, was always in the shop.

Anyway HOW did they settle it, do you know that??


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

YB1 said:


> It got me thinking if it saves even a watt per shift it would add up over a long race and maybe it is a sort of cheating.


Your thinking is wrong. If you are talking about the power required to move the derailleurs, that's a lot more than one watt, but this power is spent over such a short amount of time that it does not add up to any significant energy savings at all, no matter how long the race.


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## Zeekster64 (Dec 23, 2010)

There is no doubt that having Di2 is a step forward in shifting and I can't see the pros using mechanical groups for much longer. If Campy is coming out with its own version of electronic shifting then eventually SRAM will follow to stay in the game. Give it a few years and you'll see all the pros using electronic and then a few years after that, if we're lucky, the technology will trickle down to us common folk. 

UCI has to stay with the times so they will probably approve all kinds of things that seem experimental or wacky at the moment.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

Pirx said:


> Your thinking is wrong. If you are talking about the power required to move the derailleurs, that's a lot more than one watt, but this power is spent over such a short amount of time that it does not add up to any significant energy savings at all, no matter how long the race.


Did you really think I meant 1+1+1+1... literally, like measured in a scientific way???:thumbsup:

Seriously, the point is that pros say it saves energy and they're not lying. Oh and that cycling is a sport where having more energy is usually better. And lastly that Cancellara didn't have a motor in his bike even if it had integrated batteries!


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## smartyiak (Sep 28, 2005)

*Why?*



Zeekster64 said:


> UCI has to stay with the times so they will probably approve all kinds of things that seem experimental or wacky at the moment.


Why do you think this? Is it b/c the UCI has a history of approving technological advancements? I think that the UCI will do whatever they want...like always. 

Next year they may decide that e-shifting is cheating and ban it. Why? B/c they're the UCI and they can. 

...Although Shimano might be the one company big enough to succeed where others have failed: telling the UCI to stuff it.

-Smarty


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Pirx said:


> Your thinking is wrong. If you are talking about the power required to move the derailleurs, that's a lot more than one watt, but this power is spent over such a short amount of time that it does not add up to any significant energy savings at all, no matter how long the race.


Actually, according to an article I read a while back where Leipheimer was talking about racing and shifting...He mentioned that at the end of a 6 hour race (especially in GT's) even shifting can be very hard to do. 

Having electronic shifting that reduces the amount of energy needed to shift could help them keep from miss-shifting or save just that little amount of energy/concentration that makes the difference between winning and losing.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> There is no doubt that having Di2 is a step forward in shifting and I can't see the pros using mechanical groups for much longer. If Campy is coming out with its own version of electronic shifting then eventually SRAM will follow to stay in the game. Give it a few years and you'll see all the pros using electronic and then a few years after that, if we're lucky, the technology will trickle down to us common folk.


+1, Great summary.

I don't think there's any question that for performance applications mechanical shifting will be a thing of the past in the near future. It's similar to introduction of index shifting in the 80's. I wonder if SRAM today = Suntour of the early/mid-80's? Made lots of cool stuff, by far the best friction shifting system I've ever used, but got behind the curve on indexing and never caught up.


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## Zeekster64 (Dec 23, 2010)

smartyiak said:


> Why do you think this? Is it b/c the UCI has a history of approving technological advancements? I think that the UCI will do whatever they want...like always.
> 
> Next year they may decide that e-shifting is cheating and ban it. Why? B/c they're the UCI and they can.
> 
> ...


You're right, they could decide it isn't a way cycling should be done. I don't agree that they would do it just because theyre the UCI and just because they can. They will have a reason, good or not.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

I just found an old Suntour Superbe Pro front derailleur in my box of spare parts and stuck that onto my modern Colnago. It works at least as well as my Dura Ace and it is much more beautiful looking. It also has an angle adjustment screw to align the cage to the chainline without 'fudging around' with the whole mounting bolt on the 'braze-on' hanger.

That gruppo was very high quality stuff.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

AdamM said:


> I wonder if SRAM today = Suntour of the early/mid-80's?


SRAM seems to be run by people with very good business sense, and who know that electric is the way of the future.
I have no doubt whatsoever that SRAM has lots invested in electric. Even Campagnolo is desperate to cobble together something electric before they get relegated to the scrapheap of history along woith GB handlebars and Sheffield pedals.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Even Campagnolo is desperate to cobble together something electric before they get relegated to the scrapheap of history along woith GB handlebars and Sheffield pedals.


Campagnolo has been working on, and experimenting with an electric group for about the same time as Shimano. There's no need for them to "desperately cobble something together". They decided last year (or maybe the year before last?) that the market wasn't ready for it yet, and they were right (definitely for a company their size they were). It seems they are going to introduce their electric group this fall.

Other than that, as long as prices are what they are for electric groups, I don't see electric shifting relegating anything anywhere anytime soon...


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Wookiebiker said:


> Actually, according to an article I read a while back where Leipheimer was talking about racing and shifting...He mentioned that at the end of a 6 hour race (especially in GT's) even shifting can be very hard to do.
> 
> Having electronic shifting that reduces the amount of energy needed to shift could help them keep from miss-shifting or save just that little amount of energy/concentration that makes the difference between winning and losing.


Yeah - that's not so much about the effort involved, than it is about being able to accomplish it with any sort of skill.


A couple of years back, one of the 'big' things about SRAM was how much easier it was to shift while sprinting in the drops. Sounded silly, until you tried it. Pulling the paddle back to the bars, it's just a twist of the hand. Being able to keep a firm grip as compared to reaching for thumbies or finger levers really makes a difference. That's not to pimp SRAM, just to note that it's not all about the physical effort of moving the lever. A couple of well-placed shift buttons do the same thing.

It's funny, it a way, how everyone is sounding the death knell for cable-driven systems. Probably some truth to it, but that's more because of the gee-whiz and marketing factor than any genuine improvement.

OK, so front shifts on Di2 are amazing. But as far as I'm concerned, the rears are a step backwards. It is a pain to rack off the three or so rear shifts that usually accompany a ring change, since you have to wait for one to complete before ordering the next. That should be easy enough for them to update, but meanwhile, I'll keep my cables, thank you very much.

/In truth, there will be both electric and cable driven systems for the foreseeable future, and good reasons to select either.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

danl1 said:


> In truth, there will be both electric and cable driven systems for the foreseeable future, and good reasons to select either.


I couldn't agree more. 

As for the pain of multiple shifts with Di2, I'm curious if Campy has addressed that issue with their electric group. If they did, I expect Shimano will update their systems in short order. I wonder, does Di2 allow firmware updates, so you could easily update an existing group for new functionality?


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## Zeekster64 (Dec 23, 2010)

It's funny how things work. Nowadays, you can't find a single new road bike with a suntour derailleur on it


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

YB1 said:


> Did you really think I meant 1+1+1+1... literally, like measured in a scientific way???:thumbsup:
> 
> Seriously, the point is that pros say it saves energy and they're not lying. Oh and that cycling is a sport where having more energy is usually better. And lastly that Cancellara didn't have a motor in his bike even if it had integrated batteries!


Can you post reference of where the pros say it saves energy, please? Even if these pros didn't mean to lie, they are not necessarily correct .... the list of things pros have tried, only to be proven wrong later on, is quite long.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Zeekster64 said:


> There is no doubt that having Di2 is a step forward in shifting and I can't see the pros using mechanical groups for much longer.



Except that a number pros have already switched back to mechanical shifter from electronic - Fabian, Tony Martian (for mountin stages) are two that come to mind. The system seems fine but a step forward I question.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> Except that a number pros have already switched back to mechanical shifter from electronic - Fabian, Tony Martian (for mountin stages) are two that come to mind. The system seems fine but a step forward I question.


"for mountain stages"...really?? Because the Martian and Spartacus ride on Shimano Di2 teams as far as I know.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

orange_julius said:


> Can you post reference of where the pros say it saves energy, please? Even if these pros didn't mean to lie, they are not necessarily correct .... the list of things pros have tried, only to be proven wrong later on, is quite long.


If you go to the Shimano YouTube site you can see interviews where pros say it saves energy and is better in other ways.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

YB1 said:


> "for mountain stages"...really?? Because the Martian and Spartacus ride on Shimano Di2 teams as far as I know.


They are both on Di2 team and neither of them ride it. Fabian never does Martian might ride it some but doesn't like it on the climbing stages.


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## erj549 (Jul 26, 2008)

danl1 said:


> OK, so front shifts on Di2 are amazing. But as far as I'm concerned, the rears are a step backwards. It is a pain to rack off the three or so rear shifts that usually accompany a ring change, since you have to wait for one to complete before ordering the next. That should be easy enough for them to update, but meanwhile, I'll keep my cables, thank you very much.


So you can't do front and rear shifting at the same time? That's a lotta money to spend on something that can't do such a simple and common task. Guess I'll have to find something else to spend my $3,000 on.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

YB1 said:


> If you go to the Shimano YouTube site you can see interviews where pros say it saves energy and is better in other ways.


So guys who are paid to ride it say it saves energy? Who would have thought...


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> They are both on Di2 team and neither of them ride it. Fabian never does Martian might ride it some but doesn't like it on the climbing stages.


Doing a quick google image search I found numerous images of these two riders on Di2, none where I can see them on legacy DuraAce. Not saying you can't post a few, just that I couldn't find any from 2011. Not sure either would really be in a position to say no to the Di2 and they both for sure are riding it on their TT bikes where they got their UCI rainbow stripes.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

YB1 said:


> Not saying you can't post a few.


All righty then: 
Fabian in the Tour of Flanders








Wnning E3:


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> SRAM seems to be run by people with very good business sense, and who know that electric is the way of the future.
> I have no doubt whatsoever that SRAM has lots invested in electric. Even Campagnolo is desperate to cobble together something electric before they get relegated to the scrapheap of history along woith _*GB handlebars*_ and _*Sheffield pedals*_.


You got pics of said items?


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Pirx said:


> the market wasn't ready for it yet


Campagnolo is putting on a brave face.
The market is there but the product is not ready. The bits on the Movistar bikes look handmade. I think they went back to the drawing board when they saw how good Di2 was. 
Anyone can make something like Di2 in the shop, and equip a team. Campagnolo have acheived that much. Making it on a production line at an affordable price is another matter. If they do get a group ready by fall, kudos to them.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

cda 455 said:


> You got pics of said items?


Look in a Ron Kitching catalog from the early 60s. 

Every product has a lifespan. Today's innovative company may be forgotten twenty years from now. 
I don't use Campy but it would be sad to see them diminish. The more clever people there are working on improving bikes the better.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Zeekster64 said:


> UCI has to stay with the times so they will probably approve all kinds of things that seem experimental or wacky at the moment.


Huh? When has the UCI ever cared about staying with the times?


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

What did the Fabman ride at Tour De Suisse, Di2 or regular? What has he said in interviews on the subject?


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

natedg200202 said:


> Huh? When has the UCI ever cared about staying with the times?


They let the discs into Cyclocross and they let the 29'ers in the XCO so that's pretty good.

I'd like to hear what they DID say back when Mavic came out with Zap, if anything.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

YB1 said:


> Doing a quick google image search I found numerous images of these two riders on Di2, none where I can see them on legacy DuraAce. Not saying you can't post a few, just that I couldn't find any from 2011. Not sure either would really be in a position to say no to the Di2 and they both for sure are riding it on their TT bikes where they got their UCI rainbow stripes.


Both ride it on their TT bikes Fabin never rides it on the road anymore (dropped before the classics) look on CN they just a piece on his bikes detailing that he used the mechanical group on the road. Martian can clearly be seen riding mechanical on the stage he was in the break.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

erj549 said:


> So you can't do front and rear shifting at the same time? That's a lotta money to spend on something that can't do such a simple and common task. Guess I'll have to find something else to spend my $3,000 on.


No, you can - it's just a bit different. If you want to shift more than one in the rear - either direction - you have to click the button, give it a fraction to complete the shift, then click it again, wait again, etc. A much different experience than cable systems where you can fan off as many shifts as you know you are going to need and let the RD and chain catch up when they can. 

Hi-line Campy cable users, obsessed with the big swing of the thumb button as they are, would find it particularly off-putting. IME that's a red-herring argument, but since this is mostly about personal perception, it's valid.

I'm sure it can be mitigated with practice and experience, something like firing one rear, the front, then the rest of the rear, depending on conditions and gearing. but it was enough to justify my semi-luddite leanings.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

Zeekster64 said:


> UCI has to stay with the times so they will probably approve all kinds of things that seem experimental or wacky at the moment.


Try telling that to Graeme Obree.


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## MWP (Aug 6, 2011)

Isn't Di2 heavier than the cable systems? How many watts in dragging that battery over an alp?


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## Sven_Nijs (Jul 14, 2011)

*UCI weight limit.....*



MWP said:


> Isn't Di2 heavier than the cable systems? How many watts in dragging that battery over an alp?


Given the low weights of top PRO bikes nowadays and the fact that many teams actually have to ADD ballast weight to meet the UCI limit, Di2 weighing a bit more is largely irrelevant.


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