# Team Sky to meet with Pinarello to get weight down on the Dogma.



## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

Interesting stuff. Just noted this on Brad's Twitter blog http://twitter.com/BradWiggins


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## parity (Feb 28, 2006)

What frame size does Wiggin's ride? Because the Dogma is suppose to be a 950 gram frame for a 54. How much more do they think they can shave off. I think it would be better to look at the components (crank, wheels, etc) for weight savings.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2010)

I'd think with they wouldn't have much problem getting to 6.8 regardless, but that doesn't mean Pino might not seek their input on shedding weight from the frame while still meeting the team's needs. The lighter it is the more they'll sell.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*That's a good one.*

Pro teams ride what they ride for components. Crankset? It's going to be a Dura-Ace, Red, or whatever Sky's sponsor is, sorry for not looking it up.

All Protour riders' complete bikes should weigh just over 6.8kg as built.

Most of the major manufacturers' frames can do this with the standard build kit supplied to teams by their sponsors.

If Pinarello's team-issue frameset cannot, and I have no idea either way, then there's a problem that needs addressing.




parity said:


> What frame size does Wiggin's ride? Because the Dogma is suppose to be a 950 gram frame for a 54. How much more do they think they can shave off. I think it would be *better to look at the components (crank, wheels, etc)* for weight savings.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2010)

Its a full Shimano group/wheels with deda bits.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

nicensleazy said:


> Interesting stuff. Just noted this on Brad's Twitter blog http://twitter.com/BradWiggins


 Thats funny. I was reading the Tour Magazine test results on the Dogma. It was pitted against the C-Dale Super6, Spec SL3 , BMC's latest. The Dogma frameset came in a whopping 400 grams above its advertised weight. I think there's a thread on Weight Weenies covering it.


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## shachah7 (Dec 2, 2008)

400 grams? Thats around +40%. I dont think any manufacturer would be bold enough to undercut real weight by that much.

Maybe the test weight included other items apart from the bare frame which is what pinarellos numbers indicate.

Team sky wanting to reduce the dogmas weight sounds pointless. What is reducing the frame weight from about ~1000g to something like 900g or even 800g going to do for performance?


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2010)

I looked around a little bit, and the 950g is the weight of the frame before its painted, BB shell inserted, bottle bosses and I'm not sure what else. I saw a couple different numbers but an average sized frame is over 1200g after that. Plenty of great frames that weigh that much but that is a lot for something like the Dogma.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Latest photos http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2010/01/team-skys-pinarello-dogma-part-ii.html


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

Why is it that I think that Pinarello are simply re-badging off-the-peg Chinese frames?

I suspect design exclusivity means nothing more than a _do not disclose_ agreement between (example) Hog Fu and Pinarello. "We want the heavy & pointless wavy forks, so you must not make them for anyone else for the next 3 years". "They will be our marketing 'hook' ". "Make sure you use low modulus fiber for 95% of the frame; we don't have much money once our marketing budget is spent".

Why is a 'high-end' frame so heavy? Cheap materials? Poor design compensated for by over-wrapping? By heavy, I am comparing to retailers, such as Specialized, Giant, Trek, Cannondale, etc who actually have, it would appear, design and production control over what they sell.

Does a frame retailer have to be of a certain size (sales volume) to be in full control of the design and production process? In other words, is there a critical mass? It takes a sh1tload of money to set up your own production overseas, be it China or wherever. (It also costs a whole lot of money to buy top quality items, at low volume from a manufacturer). Are the more boutique manufacturers being pushed out of the monocoque market? Should they stick with more old fashioned lug & tube or tube to tube? Like Colnago, Look, Time, Parlee, etc. mostly have?

I like boutique frames. It's nice having something more unique, different from everyone else. But maybe with bicycle frames, we are at a point where you have to ride a Ford rather than a Lotus to get the highest performance? That sounds so perverse. Crown Vic is better in a crit than an Elise?


Keep in mind that none of the above is fact, merely opinion. There is every chance that such opinion has zero basis in fact.

Popcorn time.


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## shachah7 (Dec 2, 2008)

dave2pvd said:


> Why is it that I think that Pinarello are simply re-badging off-the-peg Chinese frames?
> 
> I suspect design exclusivity means nothing more than a _do not disclose_ agreement between (example) Hog Fu and Pinarello. "We want the heavy & pointless wavy forks, so you must not make them for anyone else for the next 3 years". "They will be our marketing 'hook' ". "Make sure you use low modulus fiber for 95% of the frame; we don't have much money once our marketing budget is spent".
> 
> ...


Pinarello definitely engineer their own bikes. IMO, in any engineering, the design is much more important than place of fabrication. 

Perhaps they're just not too focused on the bragging rights for lightest bike. They seem to focus on handling, stability and all round performance. A couple of 100g here and there doesnt impact much.

Sure Pinarellos are expensive but theres no denying they have produced some of the best allround bikes in the prince and and dogma even though theyre a couple 100g heavier than rivals.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

shachah7 said:


> Pinarello definitely engineer their own bikes. IMO, in any engineering, the design is much more important than place of fabrication.
> 
> Perhaps they're just not too focused on the bragging rights for lightest bike. They seem to focus on handling, stability and all round performance. A couple of 100g here and there doesnt impact much.
> 
> Sure Pinarellos are expensive but theres no denying they have produced some of the best allround bikes in the prince and and dogma even though theyre a couple 100g heavier than rivals.


It's more than a couple of hundred though. But I'll agree, weight isn't a huge factor. But light-weight sells. There are lots of good handling high performance bikes out there. Why buy the one that's 30% heavier?

Do they engineer their own bikes? How would we know? Perhaps Merida engineer them? And just maybe they are very well engineered. 

I don't have any statistics, but there seems to be a disproportionate amount of broken Pinarellos in this area. I have started to wonder why.

Manufacturing monocoques requires a lot of care and precise process control. It's not like you're making injection-molded plastic parts for kid's toys. Automation options are much more limited.

I think the place of manufacture is very important. Not the country - the place. Taiwan and China are making the world's best monocoques. China also makes some boat anchor-weight monocoques.


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## pharding (Sep 30, 2009)

It is most likely overweight because poor manufacturing quality control.


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

Maybe the added weight is to improve the ride quality? I've heard complaints about the ride quality of the 2008 and up Prince being too harsh, or rattling sounds. Anybody ever seen those Cannondale CAAD frames for ATB bikes? Flick a fingernail at the downtube. The aluminum is pop can thin. The Princes are the same, but in carbon fiber. Scott frames are similar.

I dunno, is the 2010 Dogma heavier than the 2008-2009 Prince? Could be it then.


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## Gerard43 (Jul 24, 2009)

:aureola: I had Pinarellos in the past Paris Dogma fp they were all heavy and weight does make a difference to the Pros you get a lovely looking bike but all mine lacked the sure race performance of there competition!!!!:mad2:


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## shachah7 (Dec 2, 2008)

Gerard43 said:


> :aureola: I had Pinarellos in the past Paris Dogma fp they were all heavy and weight does make a difference to the Pros you get a lovely looking bike but all mine lacked the sure race performance of there competition!!!!:mad2:


Lacked the sure race performance of the competition? Can you be more specific??

Surely reputation is not founded on marketing alone...which is the gist im getting from this thread. The consumer is smarter than that. 

I've ridden a few and they compare very well to stuff like colnagos. I guess different ppl, different tastes.


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

Wow....Ben Swift's Dogma is 7.7kgs according to Cyclingnews... My Mid-level Cannondale Supersix was lighter than that out of the box! ...I know his has an SRM, Deep section wheels, etc.... but come on?!...mine has heavy ksyrium clinchers, ultegra grouppo, etc etc.... they should be able to get his down to the minimum!


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## southparkcycles (Feb 7, 2008)

I thought UCI rules stated something to the likes that the bikes couldn't weigh under 15.9 lbs on race day. Sub 16lbs seems pretty standard for any top groupo and frameset. I cant remember the exact weight but we had a dogma w/a super record group on the scale w/pedals at sub 16 w/ most components. I definitely don't doubt there are much lighter frames out there but i don't think that is why most people by Pinarellos.


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## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

1. except for a couple of exceptions (Super Six HM, Scott, etc.,) most first tier frames are around 1000g or slightly more (actual rather than claimed). Pinarello has lots of curves and are super solid, hence they are slightly heavier. 

2. their advertised weight is off, but that's common in this industry. 

3. they are made in the far east for relatively low cost, but that's normal for the modern industry. EG, a bottle of pills from Pfizer costs a few cents to make. R&D, advertising, etc. all cost money. 

Bottom line, get what makes you happy. If it means getting a heavy Pinarello or eating a large juicy steak, so be it. How many of us have lost the Tour de France because of that 200g?


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## spas (Jul 15, 2009)

*Dogma is Heavier than the Prince!*

I just upgraded my 53cm Prince to a 54cm Dogma. While at the store I weighed the dogma frame with forks - it weighed 4.5 lbs.

Further when I dropped off the Prince I also weighed it - it weighed in at 15.45 lbs. It had the full 11speed Super Record groupo, Bora Ultra wheels, and carbon bottle cages.

When I picked up the dogma today I put it on the scale it weighed 16.01 lbs with the exact same components put back on from the Prince.

I am not sure the difference between a 53 and 54 cm frame is .56 lbs - it must be all that glittery paint and extra carbon they added to the dogma....


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

spas said:


> I just upgraded my 53cm Prince to a 54cm Dogma. While at the store I weighed the dogma frame with forks - it weighed 4.5 lbs.
> 
> Further when I dropped off the Prince I also weighed it - it weighed in at 15.45 lbs. It had the full 11speed Super Record groupo, Bora Ultra wheels, and carbon bottle cages.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the enlightening post. The problem with Pinarellos is it's hard to pin down the exact weight of the frames since they come with headset and fork installed.

To put things in perspective though, I recently bought a Ridley Boreas frame and fork for my trainer. Wanted something cheap so got it for $699 from Sierra Trading Post. This is an aluminum frame with massive, triangulated tubing and carbon seatstays and fork. The frame and fork weighs 4.1 lbs. The frame weighs 2.999 lbs or 1360 gms, but the fork weighs a whopping 510 gms. Nope, not 410, but 510 gms since it has an alu crown insert. Still, the total package weighs 4.1 lbs and it is one of Ridley's lower end offerings.

My beater, trainer bike is a Giant TCR Comp 1, circa 2005. I had this bike down to 15.1 lbs on get this: Ultegra shifters and front derailleur, DA rear, Textro carbon wrapped brakes, a 1350 gm Ligero clincher wheelset (which weighs about the same as Campy Boras), 233 gm bar and 145 gm stem, and a pig of a crankset: FSA MegaExo 53/39 which weighs around 880 gms with BB. To get the bike under 15 lbs all I had to do was switch to a DA double crank. The frame weighed around 1200 gms. The bike was essentially stock, mainly the wheelset was different and I used aftermarket bars and stem, but not the lightest components I own. At this weight, no pedals of course.


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