# Cyfac XCR Stainless Steel



## bouge-bouge (Aug 10, 2004)

Here's a shot of a very shiny new Cyfac XCR stainless steel frameset showing our fillet-brazing finish (as desired by the customer). XCR is Columbus' new steel offering, providing a light, dynamic, and incredibly durable frameset for traditional steel fans and new enthusiasts. Stainless steel doesn't have any of the same worries over corrosion that regular steel has and will provide an amazing platform for rain bikes, humid climes, for riders who worry over corrosion!

Cyfac does the fillet-brazing that is painstakingly crafted to lend an exceptional finish that is smooth to the touch and truly exceptional. A huge array of paint finish options and frame set-ups (internal Di2 routing, braze-on mounts for racks/fenders...) are available.

Frame weight is around 1300 grams.


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## lonster (Jun 23, 2011)

What a beautiful bike. Really shows off the work of the craftsman.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

What sort of brazing material is Cyfac using?


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## stover (Apr 24, 2010)

Kontact said:


> What sort of brazing material is Cyfac using?


Looks like brass brazing. Very nice.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Yuck, I'm not a big fan of seeing the brazing like that. I guess to each his own. The craftsmanship is superb though.


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

nightfend said:


> Yuck, I'm not a big fan of seeing the brazing like that. I guess to each his own.


+1 

I think it's hideous, but the OP said "as desired by customer" and I guess customers with no taste pay money just the same. One problem with doing this on polished stainless is that the reflective surface makes the fillets look more uneven than they already are.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I like the look of the brazing It adds a bit of Old School to the super-shiny futuristic sheen of the tubing.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

nightfend said:


> Yuck, I'm not a big fan of seeing the brazing like that. I guess to each his own. The craftsmanship is superb though.


I have to agree. It's a beautiful frame, but the difference in color between the fillets and the polished XCr is a turnoff for me.

The fastback seat stays on this 953 frame are double pass TIG welded, and then dressed and polished, They have the appearance of having been fillet brazed, but with color and polish consistent with the polished stainless tubing.


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## medimond (Apr 26, 2009)

Cyfac is on my short list of bikes that I'd be interested in owning. Perhaps this approach isn't my style, but it was well executed. You guys are making some really good looking bikes.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

I like the fillet brazed stainless frames I've seen before. I can't tell if this one looks so bad because the brass doesn't polish up like the stainless, or if those joints just aren't contoured as nicely as the others I've looked at. But I think most of them are brushed as to avoid this problem. 

This looks good, to me:


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I have a fillet brazed frame. I prefer the look, but covered by paint. It makes me wonder how much brazing material was removed to make it look uniform without paint. Firefly and others make beautiful frames from stainless with tiny, uniform weld beads.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

I like the idea of stainless, and I think if it were painted, the brazed portions would be more acceptable. I could picture myself owning one of these, painted to resemble an old gitane, or a systeme U team bike.


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## bouge-bouge (Aug 10, 2004)

There are millions of ways to paint the frame to achieve the customer's desired aesthetics.
Beauty is so subjective and it's up to us to deliver a physical frameset that embodies what a rider wants/needs from a geometric, material, and finish standpoint. Like snowflakes, no two frames are alike and no two riders will want the same paint/weld finish/etc. That's the beauty and magic of the hand-crafted framesets from whichever company, be it Cyfac or someone else. Unlike the mass-produced bikes that are meant to push out a vast quantity of homogenous product, the handmade frameset has its unique characteristics to follow the individual client. That's a special quality to consider.

Here are some other shots with different finishes on the XCR.


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## mpower13 (Jun 10, 2011)

Looks like a unfinished job :nono:.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

bouge-bouge said:


> There are millions of ways to paint the frame to achieve the customer's desired aesthetics.
> Beauty is so subjective and it's up to us to deliver a physical frameset that embodies what a rider wants/needs from a geometric, material, and finish standpoint. Like snowflakes, no two frames are alike and no two riders will want the same paint/weld finish/etc. That's the beauty and magic of the hand-crafted framesets from whichever company, be it Cyfac or someone else. Unlike the mass-produced bikes that are meant to push out a vast quantity of homogenous product, the handmade frameset has its unique characteristics to follow the individual client. That's a special quality to consider.
> 
> Here are some other shots with different finishes on the XCR.


Any idea what sort of filler rod is being used?


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## bouge-bouge (Aug 10, 2004)

The weld is what's referred to as "silver". It's actually Ag 56% - Cu 22% - Zn 17%.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

beauty.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

About how much would a frameset like that cost?


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

bouge-bouge said:


> The weld is what's referred to as "silver". It's actually Ag 56% - Cu 22% - Zn 17%.


That sounds like Fillet Pro.

Those joints are brazed, not welded.


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## steve90068 (Jul 29, 2009)

beyond beautiful


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Fignon's Barber said:


> I like the idea of stainless, and I think if it were painted, the brazed portions would be more acceptable. I could picture myself owning one of these, painted to resemble an old gitane, or a systeme U team bike.


YES!

I had suggested to Eric that Cyfac should do a "tribute to Fignon" when he passed away last year. A modern reproduction or interpretation of the frames that Fignon rode to wins in Le Tour, Giro, and Milano-Sanremo would be awesome.

So how was Fignon as a customer, Eric? Do some of the Cyfac guys still remember? The older employees must have had to deal with the old Gitane and Systeme U.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Mr Bouge (Eric?) do you have any links to, or pics of a stainless frame built for Di2?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*the white*



bouge-bouge said:


> There are millions of ways to paint the frame to achieve the customer's desired aesthetics.
> Beauty is so subjective and it's up to us to deliver a physical frameset that embodies what a rider wants/needs from a geometric, material, and finish standpoint. Like snowflakes, no two frames are alike and no two riders will want the same paint/weld finish/etc. That's the beauty and magic of the hand-crafted framesets from whichever company, be it Cyfac or someone else. Unlike the mass-produced bikes that are meant to push out a vast quantity of homogenous product, the handmade frameset has its unique characteristics to follow the individual client. That's a special quality to consider.
> 
> Here are some other shots with different finishes on the XCR.


wit red and powder blue says she's about my size and that you should send her to me


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## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

The Fignon tribute bike sounds like a cool idea. System U - Yeah!


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Scooper said:


> ... The fastback seat stays on this 953 frame are double pass TIG welded, and then dressed and polished, They have the appearance of having been fillet brazed, but with color and polish consistent with the polished stainless tubing...


I look at it the other way. From and industrial design perspective, grinding smooth and painting over brazing gives a final impression of a material that is homogenous and seamless rather than having an obvious joint. Welding is a closer to that ideal than brazing for a number of reasons. Lugs go the other direction in that they celebrate the joint.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

looigi said:


> I look at it the other way. From and industrial design perspective, grinding smooth and painting over brazing gives a final impression of a material that is homogenous and seamless rather than having an obvious joint. Welding is a closer to that ideal than brazing for a number of reasons. Lugs go the other direction in that they celebrate the joint.


I like stainless because it is the first time we can practically "celebrate the joint" with an exposed fillet. Plus, I like the contrast of bronze and steel - it reminds me of some of the component groups from the '80s.

There's just something about this particular frame that is off-putting.


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

Stainless steel oxidizes.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

zoikz said:


> Stainless steel oxidizes.


So does titanium. My stainless spokes are looking pretty good - what's your point?


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## battaglin (Apr 19, 2002)

so what's it gonna cost?....right, if I have to ask I can't afford it.


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

Kontact said:


> So does titanium. My stainless spokes are looking pretty good - what's your point?


This is my point. 
That is my Stainless frame, that is rust on it. I buffed it out last month.
The statement "Stainless steel doesn't have any of the same worries over corrosion that regular steel has and will provide an amazing platform for rain bikes, humid climes, for riders who worry over corrosion" is false.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Why would you let your stainless steel bike get like that? Don't you wash and dry it off after rides?


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

zoikz said:


> Stainless steel oxidizes.


10 years as north american product manager for large swedish specialty steel corp chiming in. Its been 16 years since, but I think I can remember a few things. I believe you mean rust, not oxidize. anything can "oxidize". it simply means adding oxygen to a substance. "rust" is a ferric oxide that can form on carbon steel when contacted by moisture. what you are really concerned about is "corrosion".

Stainless steel has a higher percentage of chromium than carbon steels, I believe the minimum is 11%. the amount of chromium is dictated by the application, ie. the more "corrosion" concerns, the higher chromium level in the alloy used. following that rationale, it is quite possible to make a stainless alloy that is virtually (in our cycling application) corrosion free. 
Therefore, stainless could be a great product for this application, and I see no problems with the initial benefit statement by cyfac.
To post a photo of what is probably a low grade stainless(if even stainless) and accompany it with a broad statement is uninformed.


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

Fignon's Barber said:


> 10 years as north american product manager for large swedish specialty steel corp chiming in. Its been 16 years since, but I think I can remember a few things. I believe you mean rust, not oxidize. anything can "oxidize". it simply means adding oxygen to a substance. "rust" is a ferric oxide that can form on carbon steel when contacted by moisture. what you are really concerned about is "corrosion".
> 
> Stainless steel has a higher percentage of chromium than carbon steels, I believe the minimum is 11%. the amount of chromium is dictated by the application, ie. the more "corrosion" concerns, the higher chromium level in the alloy used. following that rationale, it is quite possible to make a stainless alloy that is virtually (in our cycling application) corrosion free.
> Therefore, stainless could be a great product for this application, and I see no problems with the initial benefit statement by cyfac.
> To post a photo of what is probably a low grade stainless(if even stainless) and accompany it with a broad statement is uninformed.


Ahhh...that's a Reynolds 953 tubeset. If you want to call that inferior, have at it. 
Please don't let reality get in the way of your pontification on your brilliance. Clearly it is not a stainless steel bike, I am an imposter trying to provide false information. My actually owning one and having personal experience should not get in the way of your theories. 
And you sir are a bit of a bozo.

Honestly I adore this bike. By far my favorite ride I've had. The corrosion is superficial. I think one of the biggest differences may be that it was not polished. I'm guessing if I had that done it wouldn't happen as much.
The ride is really what is what wins the day. It does take more work to keep it looking pretty. Selling it as the winter, ride underwater, thrown it in the sand, bike is a bit of marketing hype. Don't buy it for that reason.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

zoikz said:


> This is my point.
> That is my Stainless frame, that is rust on it. I buffed it out last month.
> The statement "Stainless steel doesn't have any of the same worries over corrosion that regular steel has and will provide an amazing platform for rain bikes, humid climes, for riders who worry over corrosion" is false.


That sure looks like chrome.

If it's not chrome, it's some pretty awful stainless.

Stainless holds up in maritime environments. That's a great argument for it being a very robust frame building material.

Back on topic, the XCR is a fabulous looking frame. I am a big fan of good craftsmanship that is visible. Whether welds, lugs or brazed joints. I do agree that the brazed joints look best in a brushed frame/joint finish. Having said that (flip flop time), if I were ordering a frame, I'd probably have the joints painted! The examples of the minimally painted joints looked really good. Plenty of stainless still visible.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

zoikz said:


> Ahhh...that's a Reynolds 953 tubeset. If you want to call that inferior, have at it.
> Please don't let reality get in the way of your pontification on your brilliance. Clearly it is not a stainless steel bike, I am an imposter trying to provide false information. My actually owning one and having personal experience should not get in the way of your theories.
> And you sir are a bit of a bozo.
> 
> ...





Cowards call people names from the safety of the internet. enjoy yourself!

Reynolds 953? actually, yeah, its barely a stainless steel ( carpenter 450/455/465 series)

here's a link with someone obviously more in tune with the reynolds tubesets then I, predicting the "corrosion" you see on your frame:


Who's going to be the first with Reynolds 953? [Archive] - Bike Forums


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

Wait a minute, you just called me a coward. And we're on the internet?
That means you're a coward too.
So you're a bozo and a coward, but I'm just a coward. 
Oh...since I called you out on the coward thing does that mean I'm a double coward?
Sorry I never read the rule book. Is a double coward like a double negative. Or is it like a super coward...


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

zoikz said:


> Wait a minute, you just called me a coward. And we're on the internet?
> That means you're a coward too.
> So you're a bozo and a coward, but I'm just a coward.
> Oh...since I called you out on the coward thing does that mean I'm a double coward?
> Sorry I never read the rule book. Is a double coward like a double negative. Or is it like a super coward...


dude, sit at home and play with your cats!


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

"Stainless" comes in many grades: for good corrosion resistance you want austenitic (or duplex) steels. The trouble with austenitic steels is that they can't be heat treated. For things like spokes that's not a problem, they're strengthened by cold working.

XCr, 953 and MS2 are all martensitic steels which can be heat treated to achieve their excellent mechanical properties. Trouble is that the same thing that allows heat treatability limits their corrosion resistance so the manufacturers of these grades do not recommend them for use where corrosion is a problem. In a coastal environment or with dripping sweat you'll get the problems Zoikz showed.

And no, I don't wash my bike every time it's used. I wash it when I give it a major service, usually twice a year.


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## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

I'm still waiting for the Cyfac response on a possible Fignon tribute. (I wonder if the screen name "Fignon's Optometrist" is still available?)


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Enough of the personal attacks.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kontact said:


> I like the fillet brazed stainless frames I've seen before. I can't tell if this one looks so bad because the brass doesn't polish up like the stainless, or if those joints just aren't contoured as nicely as the others I've looked at. But I think most of them are brushed as to avoid this problem.
> This looks good, to me:


Brass polishes if someone is willing to put the effort into it. Here is a Bohemian frame -


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

Beautiful bike. Someone really buffed and polished the heck out of it! I've wondered why Stainless steel is so rarely used for frames. Most st. st. tubing is the 304 or 304L alloy, a strong and corrosion resistant variety although 316 stainless is more corrosion resistant but probably not produced in the tubing shapes frame builders need.

I like fillet brazed frames, still owning my early 80's Tom Ritchey hand built Commando. That type of construction is an art. 

I agree with the information Fignon's Barber presented. Take it from those of us in the industry that know about metallurgy and manufacturing.

Say, does the Cyfac frame originally shown have downtube shifter braze-ons?!


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Fignon's Barber said:


> Reynolds 953? actually, yeah, its barely a stainless steel ( carpenter 450/455/465 series)
> 
> here's a link with someone obviously more in tune with the reynolds tubesets then I, predicting the "corrosion" you see on your frame:
> 
> ...


I started that 2005 Bike Forums thread and took delivery of my 953 Waterford RS-22 in May, 2007, so I've been riding it for nearly five years. Although I've never abused it, I haven't babied it either. It has proven to be very dent resistant (e.g. no dents) in spite of the 0.3mm wall thickness, and it has never shown any sign of even light surface rust in spite of lots of riding in the rain and living on a peninsula surrounded by salt water with salt air. The seam in the tubing is so homogenous that when Reynolds subjected round tubes of various diameters and wall thickness to "flattening" tests (from round to oval of less than 70% of the original diameter) there was no sign of cracking along the tube. My frame isn't particularly light, but 1650g for a 61cm frame isn't all that heavy, either.

For me, stainless steel is an ideal bicycle frame material.


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## bouge-bouge (Aug 10, 2004)

Fivethumbs said:


> I'm still waiting for the Cyfac response on a possible Fignon tribute. (I wonder if the screen name "Fignon's Optometrist" is still available?)


Here's a Fignon tribute (in alloy on this one). What do you think?

Laurent Fignon tribute from Cyfac - Page 2


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## irondesignairparts (Nov 28, 2021)

nightfend said:


> Yuck, I'm not a big fan of seeing the brazing like that. I guess to each his own. The craftsmanship is superb though.


as noted, it was the customers wish, but even more important, the skill/time and ability to do an entire frame in this manner is few and far between. I can do it, but it leaves little time for anything else.


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## Feels on Wire (Sep 29, 2021)

irondesignairparts said:


> as noted, it was the customers wish, but even more important, the skill/time and ability to do an entire frame in this manner is few and far between. I can do it, but it leaves little time for anything else.


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