# Sneak peak: Carbon Tubular Shootout!!



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

I invite you to view Roadbikereview's upcoming shootout, carbon tubulars.

Please help me proofread it as this project is a little bit of bear for me. Post any edits, suggestions on this thread or the carbon tubular thread below:

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=32909

Pending are reviews on all the remaining wheelsets.

francois

<img src="https://gallery.roadbikereview.com/data/roadbike/500/medium/78849IMG_17561.jpg">


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

It won't let me view it! Insufficient privileges...


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

francois said:


> I invite you to view Roadbikereview's upcoming shootout, carbon tubulars.
> 
> Please help me proofread it as this project is a little bit of bear for me. Post any edits, suggestions on this thread or the carbon tubular thread below:
> 
> ...


I can see the thread OK, and there are a few typos. Should I just post the corrected version onto the corresponding post or should I post it here?

The review looks very good, but says little about *actual performance*. Any chance you can do a performance comparison? The best would be some power measurement (for example, using a Polar power device thingie so that you can swap wheels) vs. speed using different wheels on the same day. I'd ask for 3-mile TT times and/or climbing rides, but how many full-out 3-mile TTs can you do in one day?  By using the power vs. speed comparison you sort of subject the wheels to a wind tunnel testing. Plus you don't have to be killing yourself doing it. You can just keep yourself at 60-70% your AT/LT and test a bunch of wheels by going in the same loop.

The reason that I'm bringing this up is because sometimes things seem faster because they make a nicer sloshing sound, not because they actually are faster.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

orange_julius said:


> I can see the thread OK, and there are a few typos. Should I just post the corrected version onto the corresponding post or should I post it here?
> 
> The review looks very good, but says little about *actual performance*. Any chance you can do a performance comparison? The best would be some power measurement (for example, using a Polar power device thingie so that you can swap wheels) vs. speed using different wheels on the same day. I'd ask for 3-mile TT times and/or climbing rides, but how many full-out 3-mile TTs can you do in one day?  By using the power vs. speed comparison you sort of subject the wheels to a wind tunnel testing. Plus you don't have to be killing yourself doing it. You can just keep yourself at 60-70% your AT/LT and test a bunch of wheels by going in the same loop.
> 
> The reason that I'm bringing this up is because sometimes things seem faster because they make a nicer sloshing sound, not because they actually are faster.


Put the edits here please.

Actual measured peformance is great but is almost impossible of course. 

I heard the power measuring devices by Polar is no good. The only one that works is powertap and that's not feasible since the wheel has to be built around it.

For Time Trials and uphill timed runs, the human factor is wayy too big. I uphill time trial all the time and how I feel and how hard I try affects my climb by minutes (on a 20 minute time trial). What wheels I use affect it by seconds. Thus there is no way to get accurate measurements on the performance of these wheels.

I will however attempt to give more performance info on the wheels. For example, I climbed best on the Reynolds Cirro KOMs and I was fastest on flats using the Easton Tempest IIs.

francois


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

How bout a coastdown test? Start at the top of a hill, coast to the bottom, time it. 

Yeah, there's problems with that, but it reduces the "human factor" somewhat.

M


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

Couple things.

1. You're right, Powertap wouldn't be good. Looks like you need an SRM for DuraAce 10 speed to measure output! But then again there are too many other factors.

2. How do you get around the fact that many of the wheelsets you test are the exact same rims with just different hubs? (Easton, American Classic, Cane Creek, Zipp)


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## Number9 (Nov 28, 2004)

Any plans to test out these puppies (hyperon tubulars):


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

Number9 said:


> Any plans to test out these puppies (hyperon tubulars):


Those are super friggin sick. I would LOVE a set of the carbon clinchers!

Likely he won't test 'em as there is VERY LITTLE chance that campy would let RBR test a set.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Jed Peters said:


> Couple things.
> 
> 2. How do you get around the fact that many of the wheelsets you test are the exact same rims with just different hubs? (Easton, American Classic, Cane Creek, Zipp)


From what I know, American Classic and Zipp 303 are the same rims. Cane Creek 46 and Reynolds Stratus are the same rims. Braking performance is identical when the same rim is used.

It is worth noting in the test that they are the same rims since it's pretty good info. Hub/bearing quality will come into play. And more important, spokes, wheel build, and tension will play a role in how they ride. End result weight can be different too.

fc


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Number9 said:


> Any plans to test out these puppies (hyperon tubulars):


I'd like to add that to the review. I'll come to your place sometime and photograph and measure spoke tension on those wheels.

Maybe we can swap wheels and you and I can compare that wheel to the Cirro KOM. Or you can just borrow one of the wheels I have for comparison and you write the review on the hyperons.

I'm on vacation for a couple of weeks and will be back end of June.

fc


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

francois said:


> From what I know, American Classic and Zipp 303 are the same rims. Cane Creek 46 and Reynolds Stratus are the same rims. Braking performance is identical when the same rim is used.
> 
> It is worth noting in the test that they are the same rims since it's pretty good info. Hub/bearing quality will come into play. And more important, spokes, wheel build, and tension will play a role in how they ride. End result weight can be different too.
> 
> fc


hope this helps......

Am Classic 38mm rim=Zipp 38mm (303) rim
Am Classic 58mm rim=Zipp (404) 
Easton Tempest=Zipp (404)
Cane Creek Aros 58= Zipp (404) 
Cane Creek Aros 46=Reynolds Stratus


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Number 9, I'm sure the Italian economy thanks you for your support. 

That has to be the most expensive bike I've seen!


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Jed Peters said:


> hope this helps......
> 
> Am Classic 38mm rim=Zipp 38mm (303) rim
> Am Classic 58mm rim=Zipp (404)
> ...


I would guess you can only test what companies will send you- and noting the various build qualities also help in choosing between the various Zipp rim using manufacturers.

The missing wheelset that jumps at me the most is the Campy Boras G3's actually. Something from HED would be nice too. Maybe some Spinergy's so we can laugh at them some more.


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## weiwentg (Feb 3, 2004)

francois said:


> I invite you to view Roadbikereview's upcoming shootout, carbon tubulars.
> 
> Please help me proofread it as this project is a little bit of bear for me. Post any edits, suggestions on this thread or the carbon tubular thread below:
> 
> ...


that's just sick. how are you ever going to go back to your training wheels now? 
can't say I'm surprised that you liked the Stratus DV-ULs the best. however, there are so many wheels that use the same rim. perhaps you could have included some Corimas in the test. also Nimble.


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## Number9 (Nov 28, 2004)

francois said:


> I'd like to add that to the review. I'll come to your place sometime and photograph and measure spoke tension on those wheels.


Sounds like a plan. Also, if we do this on a weekend, you can bring the rest of the RBR homies and we can ride Mt. Hamilton - we'll get to skip all the traffic on the first 4-1/2 miles up from Alum Rock!


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

The Hyperons aren't super light at around 1250g. However, a very stiff rear wheel and a durable build. Snappy acceleration as well. Probably one of the few carbon wheels in that weight class that can endure every day riding without problems.

Regarding the review, I noticed that almost all wheels had a higher tension in the front compared to the drive-side rear. That doesn't sound correct. I'm not familiar with the FSA tensiometer. Perhaps the readout scale is reversed?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

divve said:


> Regarding the review, I noticed that almost all wheels had a higher tension in the front compared to the drive-side rear. That doesn't sound correct. I'm not familiar with the FSA tensiometer. Perhaps the readout scale is reversed?



Yes, great catch. those numbers are deflection numbers in mm. So lower numbers mean tighter spoke tension.

For example:
.30 translates to 129 Kgf of tension
.40 translates to 91 Kgf of tension

I'll correct it.

fc


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Coolhand said:


> I would guess you can only test what companies will send you- and noting the various build qualities also help in choosing between the various Zipp rim using manufacturers.
> 
> The missing wheelset that jumps at me the most is the Campy Boras G3's actually. Something from HED would be nice too. Maybe some Spinergy's so we can laugh at them some more.



Good call. I'll keep adding to the wheels on to the list as I get more wheels in Nimble and Toplino looks interesting too.

I'm still waiting for a callback on those $5000 Alp d Huez Lightweight wheels.

:0


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## twain (May 18, 2004)

*Welcome to use my nimbles*

Anytime you need them.

I do think a coastdown test would be awesome. But you'd probably need to start at over 20MPH to figure any aero benefits.

- inflating all tires to 150psi would help establish a level playing field.
- or stick them in a truing stand. Somehow rig a cyclometer, spin them at certain mph, then let go and see how long it takes to stop.

Consumer Review is now becoming Consumer Reports ! 
Awesome!


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Just slapped a pair of these together....Tune 24h MIG70 & 28h MAG190 hubs, Winium rims (suspected to be same as Hyperon), CX-Ray spokes. Spoke tension front ~900N, rear drive-side ~1100N according to DT Swiss Tensiometer. Total weight 1153g.


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

Those are SICK.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

divve said:


> Just slapped a pair of these together....Tune 24h MIG70 & 28h MAG190 hubs, Winium rims (suspected to be same as Hyperon), CX-Ray spokes. Spoke tension front ~900N, rear drive-side ~1100N according to DT Swiss Tensiometer. Total weight 1153g.


Beauty!! How much did it cost you to build that?

fc


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Thanks.

I bought the parts for about €1100 Euro, which in US export pricing is about the equivalent number in dollars.


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## Adrien (Aug 7, 2005)

Very nice thread! Congrats!
Now you just have to test many differents tubies


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## mellowman (Apr 17, 2004)

Divve, 
I thought you were resisting the lure of carbon tubulars? Apparently you caved in and nicely too boot!


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

True, but after some thinking I found a way that didn't compromise reliability. By carrying a spare Tufo Elite Jet <160 it's not much extra bulk either. The total weight is lighter compared to spares and my lightest custom clincher set. Not planning to use them in bad weather however. Braking with carbon rims isn't all that good to begin with.


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## mellowman (Apr 17, 2004)

Are you going with the Tufo tape? Extreme? 

Is the ride really better than a good clincher with latex tubie?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Adrien said:


> Very nice thread! Congrats!
> Now you just have to test many differents tubies


Yes good point. I actually got to test the Conti Sprinter, Competition, Vredestein and Tufo Jet. I'll be posting my reviews on them soon.

I think the Conti Sprinter is a great all-around tire. The Tufo Jet is just a strange tire. It's noisy and it's rough.

BTW, it looks like we're getting Topolino tubulars and the coveted Lightweight Carbon Tubies <--$3800 for the economy version.

francois


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

mellowman said:


> Are you going with the Tufo tape? Extreme?
> 
> Is the ride really better than a good clincher with latex tubie?


No tufo tape for me. Folks here have had good luck with them. The tape is extremely strong and is quite reliable. Some complaints have been on removal and how it can damage a non-tufo tire.

Yes, the ride is better than a clincher with latex. At the same air pressures, a tubular tire is more supple, more compliant. The finest tubular tires use latex as well to get the that advantage.

For this test, there is a double whammy for comfort since carbon rims are more comfortable than aluminum rims. The most comfortable carbon rims are the low profile ones. In a nutshell, they take away vibrations.

francois


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

mellowman said:


> Are you going with the Tufo tape? Extreme?
> 
> Is the ride really better than a good clincher with latex tubie?


I only bring the light Tufo with me as a spare. The actual tires for use are Veloflex Carbon.

I don't like/trust tape. You can prep the cotton base of Tufo tires with glue just like any other tubular.


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## SPINDAWG (Aug 24, 2003)

*I'm currently in the market for tubulars.*

However,I'm looking at the Bontragers at present time after becoming a big fan of the Race X-lites.I do however enjoy riding the Campag clinchers that ride like tubulars without the mess.Any opinions on the Bontrager wheels guys,preferably the tubular.


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## Johnnysmooth (Jun 10, 2004)

*Topos*



francois said:


> BTW, it looks like we're getting Topolino tubulars and the coveted Lightweight Carbon Tubies <--$3800 for the economy version.
> 
> francois



Hey Francois,
Glad to hear you may be getting a pair of Topos to test. I have the clinchers and love them. 

Was actually talking to the folks at topolino early last week and mentioned your review, encouraging them to get in on the act. Sounds like the suggestion may have had some influence. 

Can't wait to see that report and BTW, your report to date on carbon tubies is good.

Happy trails,
John


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## ehjertberg (Apr 26, 2004)

*FSA responds*

A couple of reactions from Ric Hjertberg, FSA's wheel designer:

(1) Very nice review, with thoughtful consideration of each company's products. Even handed evaluation amongst such strong company is laudable.

(2) I regret that no attention was given to longevity/strength/damage resistance. It's hard to to objectively assess wheel durability, but some time should be be spent addressing the issue. Otherwise, light weight becomes each wheel's primary feature.

I say this because FSA deliberately designed its two models to survive Div 1 European road racing. We've tried lighter rims but they give miserable results in harsh conditions (speed, weather, road surface). I'm sure the other makers in the test would readily agree that their models aren't intended for heavy use.

It would have been fun to offer wheels that are breathtakingly light, but FSA went for strength. We're confident that ours will substantially outlast the others. Why? The extra weight is optimally applied to the rim, extending its durability. For our purposes, carbon wheels ought to last long and not just weigh less. 

There's a place for featherweight equipment. We have no issue with those who build their components with low weight as highest priority. But it's also fun to ride regularly on equipment that's both light and rugged. 

(3) The hubs on the RD-800 wheels have three flanges. It should be noted that this design is driven by aerodynamics. Tucking 1/3 of the spokes behind the rim and tire enhances aerodynamic efficiency. Sure, the gain is small. But genuine improvements are very hard to make at this level of product and races can be won by tenths of a second.

Lastly, thanks for including us in the evaluation. And congratulations to the other brands on a good job with their designs and building.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

*Another Vote for Nimble Flys*

I too have a set of Nimble Flys and I'm very satisfied with their performance. I'd love to know how they compare to the others that cost over twice a much.



twain said:


> Anytime you need them.
> 
> I do think a coastdown test would be awesome. But you'd probably need to start at over 20MPH to figure any aero benefits.
> 
> ...


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

divve said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I bought the parts for about �1100 Euro, which in US export pricing is about the equivalent number in dollars.



You just might have a waiting list on your hands with those wheels.


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

ehjertberg said:


> A couple of reactions from Ric Hjertberg, FSA's wheel designer:
> 
> (1) Very nice review, with thoughtful consideration of each company's products. Even handed evaluation amongst such strong company is laudable.
> 
> ...


Now, wouldn't it be nice if these FSA wheels were actually available? I called them a few weeks ago, and they told me "possibly September" as a delivery date for their carbon tubies. "We have the parts in the warehouse" the guy on the phone explained to me, "but business has been so brisk that we don't have anyone building them". So, I bought some Reynolds Stratus DV's instead...Would have liked to try out the FSA's (they were going to be about $150 cheaper).


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## HazemBata (May 20, 2004)

Thank you for the review. It was great.

I am anxious to hear your thoughts on the Topolino Carbons when you get a chance.

Do yo have to remove the tire to true the Reynolds DV-UL? If so then that alone is enough to disqualify them. That would be too much of a hassle. Also, are the Ultra-Lights durable enough for everyday use or should I consider the regular DV?

Thanks


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Reynolds does indeed require tire removal. However, I think you're overly concerned. A properly built wheel doesn't need truing unless you mess it up. In that instance, it's not much additional work to remove a tire.


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## HazemBata (May 20, 2004)

*Rim Depth*

Francois,

I live on the coast where the land is flat. My rides are flat and straight. Would you recommend the Stratus or the Easton? How much of a difference did you feel between the 46cm rim and the 58cm rim in terms of wind resistence? I am a road rider. Thanks.


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

HazemBata said:


> Francois,
> 
> I live on the coast where the land is flat. My rides are flat and straight. Would you recommend the Stratus or the Easton? How much of a difference did you feel between the 46cm rim and the 58cm rim in terms of wind resistence? I am a road rider. Thanks.


The 58mm rim will give you better aero capabilites.


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

*Nice review, Francois*

Not done reading it yet, but I'm enjoying it. The only other thing I have to say is that Number 9 and Spindawg are living proof I'm not spending nearly enough on bicycles. Good gravy.


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## HazemBata (May 20, 2004)

hi jed,

i realize that a deeper rim is more aero...but how much more aero? is it worth the weight penalty and the greater suseptability to crosswinds? the crosswinds where i live can be vicious at times.

thanks.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

*I disagree on one wheelset.*

I have a set of the AC carbon wheels and the braking on them is awesome, just as good as any other wheelset I have although I have yet to ride them in the rain. Mine do not pulse at all. I love those AC's!



francois said:


> I invite you to view Roadbikereview's upcoming shootout, carbon tubulars.
> 
> Please help me proofread it as this project is a little bit of bear for me. Post any edits, suggestions on this thread or the carbon tubular thread below:
> 
> ...


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## trojanlete (Sep 2, 2005)

*Rolf Carbon Review*

How about a review of Rolf's carbon wheels? How good are their carbon wheels, considering the Rolf Vigor's get great reviews?


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## trumpetman (Dec 9, 2001)

*TUFO tabe and carbon*



mellowman said:


> Are you going with the Tufo tape? Extreme?
> 
> Is the ride really better than a good clincher with latex tubie?


I have been using TUFO extreme tape exclusively on carbon rims since I had a lot of trouble getting TUFO Presitge cyclocross tubulars to stick last last season. It took quite a while to get over the high sided endo that occured when I rolled the front Reynolds in an off camber turn when glued with 3 layers of Continental glue. . I originally got the tape as a temporary measure after that, but it has been great in my experience, and I would never go back to gluing tires! . I have 3 sets of carbon tubular wheels - Bontrager XXX-lite, Bontrager X-lite carbon and Reynolds DV-cyclocross - and a Lightweight Disc - and I use tape on them all. I have logged around 8000 miles this year, raced in RR, crits and TT as well as on the dirt (cross). I have had zero problems with the tape and it has made using tubies almost exclusively no hassle at all. To me TUFO tape is to bikes like the Ipod is to music!

John

PS I do like the ride better as well. So much of the advantage of a carbon rim is lost if you go clincher it almost isn't worth the expense.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

*Thanks for taking the time to put so much info in one spot.*



divve said:


> Reynolds does indeed require tire removal. However, I think you're overly concerned. A properly built wheel doesn't need truing unless you mess it up. In that instance, it's not much additional work to remove a tire.


I found this reveiw just recently while buying my own carbon wheels, finally, after a long time of deluding myself that "I could race with anyone on my regular wheels, I'd just have to be stronger, and train more, be willing to hurt more..etc etc." After recently coming back to racing from a prolonged lay-off, I upgraded all my gear and really trained hard and smart (if I do say so myself)for a year. Then this past season, I raced all the old guy big races I could find (on the west coast) and finished fairly strongly, but just off the pace a bit. Towards the end of my season, I noticed at the Park City Masters Nationals and again at the Huntsman World Games in Utah..virtually everyone I raced against was using carbon race wheels, so I started asking around. All the guys were amazed I was still racing on Ksyriums, and highly reccomended I switch to some more Aero carbon wheels..(We old guys help each other out),,After loads of research, reveiwing all my CicloSport ride graphs from the season, looking and comparing all the results of the races..I finally concluded that I WAS leaving some time laying around by not racing on the best available wheels that I could afford. I'm hoping that if the wheels work on MY bike like they do/did in print during the testing results I have seen, they will bring me up ever so slightly in overall performance..It'd be dicey to train much harder and expect to stay healty..being semi-retired, I can and do train as much as I can get away with, ..but so do all the other guys in my (age category) races..so that is a" wash." .Must be the wheels...hee hee.
Anyway,thank you for taking the time to put up such a good article. I ended up with 3 sets of wheels, BTW. All from Ebay, all tubulars..some Zipp 303s some Lew/Stratus DVs and a Corima set, 4spoke rear, deep dish 16 spoke front...The stratus are my favorites, just seem a better wheel than the Zipps..and the Corimas? It is usually windy here and very mountainous, so they'll be used for Time trials only..
Don Hanson


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## HazemBata (May 20, 2004)

*Topolino Tubulars*

Francois,

Any word on the Topolino tubulars???? Anyone have experience with them in comparison to other tubulars?


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

trumpetman said:


> To me TUFO tape is to bikes like the Ipod is to music!


Since I know what you mean to say with the analogy I know you like the tape but mp3 sound reproduction is horrid.

I am sticking with glue (and keeping my expensive turntable too cause CDs still don't sound as good as vinyl).


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## Max-Q (Feb 6, 2004)

HazemBata said:


> Francois,
> 
> Any word on the Topolino tubulars???? Anyone have experience with them in comparison to other tubulars?


I'm also curious about them too. They are a very interesting wheel in that they use a Zipp 303 rim and lace it with a carbon/kevlar spoke that spans from the rim to the carbon hub to the rim again. They are also extremely light, I saw an actual weight on them of 1150 grams. Their design and weight remind me very much of my Lightweight wheels only the Topolinos cost about $1000 less.


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## ravenmore (Aug 12, 2004)

*Curious about the Topolino's too*

I've got a tax return to spend, damnit.  I've been eyeing them and read a good review at a Tri site somewhere. The carbon kevlar spokes sound interesting as does the high spoke count....

-Mike


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## rcrouse2 (Nov 11, 2002)

*Carbon shootout*

Any chance you could add the Hed 3 full carbon trispokes to the shootout? I'd also like
to see the Mavic Carbone Clinchers and maybe a few other aero clincher sets added 
(real design), (Hed Alps) etc to get a feel for the performance differences in the aero tubies vs clinchers. I'm torn between going for the Carbon Sl's in clincher form or something like
Zipp 404 or Reynolds Stratus in tubie form. Rich


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## jtc1 (Apr 25, 2004)

*Flat Protection*



divve said:


> I only bring the light Tufo with me as a spare. The actual tires for use are Veloflex Carbon.
> 
> So what is the practical solution to tubular flats? I will NEVER have a team car behind me - not do I want to carry a two pound pack w/ tire, glue, tools.
> 
> ...


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

A rolled up Tufo Elite Jet <160g is only 4 x 3" and 1-1/8" thick. It's less than the size of a sandwich and you can easily fit 3 in your jersey pockets if you wish. I have two in Ceranwrap but usually only take one with me and a sandwich size Ziplock with pump and essential tools. You don't need glue as it's basically useless without time to cure. When you get a flat your mission is to go home. Therefore in my opinion riding tubulars for fun should only be attempted if you have good roads in your area.


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## newdoc (May 22, 2004)

anyone try some of the new rolf carbon rims........the tdf38 seems especially interesting...

another new tire from continental with their new super flat protection fibers seems interesting.......

also, anyone know if the tufo rim tape would work well with conti or vitorria tires ??


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## basho (Sep 10, 2003)

*carbon tubular shootout*

This really is the best article on the web about this subject. And it potentially saves us thousands in buying and trying new wheels by giving an evenhanded test. Kudos! I, for one, have had very good luck with some of the reynolds dv stratus wheels over the past year or two, and it seems to me that if you are a committed cyclist, the pleasure of riding a set of tubulars is well worth the hassle. I found that an old(er) harsh ride alu/carbon race bike was very significantly reduced by the addition of a set of similar LEW carbon wheels I picked up as well.... so I kept it around as bike #2, upgraded. I think it really does pay to put your extra cycling dollars into great carbon tubular wheels (except for rain). BTW, francois do you know if those easton "ceramic impregnated" carbon rims really do work better in the rain? The old mavic ceramics sure do.... 
If people say those are the same rims as zipps, does that mean they are treated specially by easton for braking?

Anyway, I too would be very curious to know how the lightweight wheels and the boras compare to the wheels you tested. My gut says they are probably not really better, just imported and more expensive....but my gut may be wrong. And with ligthweights that cannot be trued...well, it seems shakey. Thanks for the good work! 

I should note that I have not saved the carbon wheels for a special occasion but have ridden them regularly, they are too nice.... and have have no problems yet. You have made me very tempted by the eastons I must say. BTW, I am also curious about the new continental vectran competition tires.....have stayed away from conti's since in clincher I found they really picked up a lot of glass and did not resist puncture as well as vredesteins, which I have ridden happily as well as many tufos.


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## flying (Feb 17, 2004)

francois said:


> Yes, great catch. those numbers are deflection numbers in mm. So lower numbers mean tighter spoke tension.
> 
> For example:
> .30 translates to 129 Kgf of tension
> ...


Good article.
Regarding spoke tension I was wondering......I was looking for low profile climbing wheels. The Zipp 202 & the Reynolds Cirro KOM caught my eye.
I wondered why the spoke tension according to your chart & lower numer = more tension

The KOM's you said were the best in handling & comfort.
Yet on the Zipp 202's you said...
_"Handling was ok, not great. It seemed like spoke tension was not very high and even."_ 

So I am confused as the chart shows the Zipps with higher tension no?

Was it the Standard deviation that caused this?

Thanks again for the reviews


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## jtc1 (Apr 25, 2004)

*Wet weather braking*

So just how bad is wet weather braking with carbon rims - assuming one has carbon specific pads like kool stop for Carbon????


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## Spezzoto (Dec 17, 2004)

*Here is a set that you do not see often or never...*

Miche Carbon Tubulars 
58MM profile and carbon hubs.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Miche-Carbon-Tu...221803998QQcategoryZ58099QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## audiolessonover (Sep 23, 2006)

divve said:


> Just slapped a pair of these together....Tune 24h MIG70 & 28h MAG190 hubs, Winium rims (suspected to be same as Hyperon), CX-Ray spokes. Spoke tension front ~900N, rear drive-side ~1100N according to DT Swiss Tensiometer. Total weight 1153g.


Firstly, kudos and credit to francois - this is one of the best reviews i have come across on carbon tubulars.
I'm am currently trawling the web for info - I really want to upgrade my wheels and get a pair of race-specific (but come out for good training rides  ) wheels, ideally carbon tubulars. I started off with a basic alu/tiagra mix that I put together myself from various sources a couple fo years ago, and as my riding has improved I've needed to upgrade. Only catch is I'm still a studfent, and racing is so friggin' expensive! I'm currently racing in oz, I love climbing (im 192cm/63kg) and we have lots of 3-5km 6-10% jobs that I regularily fly up, putting a couple of minutes into guys strapping zipp 303s with my borrowed pair of shimano tiagra wheels.... They are ugly clunking things, heavy (over 2kg) and they rattle, the fact they are round is about the only good thing you can say about them - but without them I wouldnt be able to ride as I couldnt bring even a training pairs of wheels over with me.

Its got to the point where I've saved ~500GBP/~$1000/~EU1000 - for a nice pair of wheels for next year, my fitness has improved to the point where I can justify the expense (bear in mind it would be ~5% of my income for the year!!)

And hence the search.

The reason I post - seeing divve posts I have to ask you - where did you get your parts from? I've worked in a bike store and am competant at assembling wheels, I know the ins and outs of my bike and would love to have a pair of wheels I put together myself, espeically if they come out cheaper - I would be very interested to find out where the best place (read cheapest) to buy Tune hubs and sapim CX-ray spokes is from? I'll be getting them shipped to the UK - so postage isnt so much of a problem.

Also I am interested to find out about corima rims - i never realised that so many manufacturers shared rims and just changed the branding! Where did you get your rims from, corima themselves? Looking at there site, I don't know which I'd choose - the winium or the aero rims - the racing I'm doing back home is most rolling stuff (biggest hills are only 120m high - I'm loving racing on 300-500m high climbs here!!) so the aero's might make more sense.... thou the winiums look like they would fly uphills.

As I'm still fairly new to racing (only second season) I would appreciate any input you guys have, and again thanks for your advice.


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## twain (May 18, 2004)

For $1000 USD, I'd get the Hed Alps. They are essentially the same design as a zipp 303 but a lot less money. I have the clinchers and they are excellent; very stiff and the alum rim provides secure braking (no need to change pads).
http://www.hedcycling.com/wheels/alps.php
- if you are doing time trials, another idea would be to get a hed alps front and hed3 rear wheel.

Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.


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## audiolessonover (Sep 23, 2006)

twain said:


> For $1000 USD, I'd get the Hed Alps. They are essentially the same design as a zipp 303 but a lot less money. I have the clinchers and they are excellent; very stiff and the alum rim provides secure braking (no need to change pads).
> http://www.hedcycling.com/wheels/alps.php
> - if you are doing time trials, another idea would be to get a hed alps front and hed3 rear wheel.
> 
> Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.



Yeah those were one of those that I looked at - trouble is the UK price is £699 ($1330)... I hate how some companies rip off just because you are overseas - the excuse is the higher tax rate.

For some cheaper wheels ive been really tempted by an offer ive been given on a pair of williams system 30 wheels - they are worth a look they have had good reviews, they're handbuilt, and inexpensive compared to similar wheels (they are alu clinchers) - they have a website and they are pretty 'new' it seems.

I'm willing to share the results ive my trawl if people are interested - an excel file of about 25 wheels carb/alu for this sort of price, comparing stated and actual weights rim depth, spoke count, materials, lacing etc.


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## twain (May 18, 2004)

*Nimbles for cheap if you are interested*

I have some Nimble Crosswinds (tublar). Will sell them to you for $750 USD. (check ebay for going rate). Here is what the manufacturer says:
http://www.nimble.net/
Preglued with conti sprinters (150 psi) and original bags.
Used a total of less than 20 days! I have gone over 55mph on them at the Wildflower triathlon.

These are very impressive wheels; very stiff and fast. They are essentially the same as hed 3's, the "most aerodynamic non disc wheels". 
I just don't like tubulars because I was caught in the rain/cold with them once and couldn't put the new tube on. I am too old and impatient to use them any more. That's why I got the Hed Alps clinchers.

Email me at twain at yahoo.com if you are interested.


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## audiolessonover (Sep 23, 2006)

twain said:


> I have some Nimble Crosswinds (tublar). Will sell them to you for $750 USD. (check ebay for going rate). Here is what the manufacturer says:
> http://www.nimble.net/
> Preglued with conti sprinters (150 psi) and original bags.
> Used a total of less than 20 days! I have gone over 55mph on them at the Wildflower triathlon.
> ...


Thankyou for the offer - however I should have clarified, I'm after a set of road racing wheels, I'll get TT wheels when I graduate and are earning enough money . Unfortunatly (or fortunatly depending on which way you look at it) trispokes aren't allowed in road races. Thankyou again for your advice - I checked out their website and they make some impressive claims for there wheels, including a 68g front hub on the fly..... about the same as a steel QR skewer!


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

audiolessonover said:


> The reason I post - seeing divve posts I have to ask you - where did you get your parts from? I've worked in a bike store and am competant at assembling wheels, I know the ins and outs of my bike and would love to have a pair of wheels I put together myself, espeically if they come out cheaper - I would be very interested to find out where the best place (read cheapest) to buy Tune hubs and sapim CX-ray spokes is from? I'll be getting them shipped to the UK - so postage isnt so much of a problem.
> 
> Also I am interested to find out about corima rims - i never realised that so many manufacturers shared rims and just changed the branding! Where did you get your rims from, corima themselves? Looking at there site, I don't know which I'd choose - the winium or the aero rims - the racing I'm doing back home is most rolling stuff (biggest hills are only 120m high - I'm loving racing on 300-500m high climbs here!!) so the aero's might make more sense.... thou the winiums look like they would fly uphills.
> 
> .


I got the spokes and hubs in Germany from:
http://www.starbike.com
You may also try for spokes:
http://www.xx-light-bikes.de/shop/

The rims I got from Corima direct.
http://www.corima.com

Regarding the choice of Winium or Aero, I'm of the opinion that aero wheels don't account enough to make a difference in real world racing, unless you're riding in a time trial. I simply selected them because I prefer the look of low profile rims over high profile.

Most importantly is that you get the wheels built up by a competent builder. Also, don't select a combination of components that are too light or they won't hold up in racing. An example would be Winium rims with 16 CX-Rays front and 24 CX-Rays in the rear. In my opinion that's simply not stiff and durable enough.


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## JAG MN (Jan 10, 2006)

I have a set of Reynolds Stratus DV/UL's and I love them a lot. I put on 800 miles this year on them (training and racing) and like others believe that you should be able to ride them more than just racing. The acceleration possibilities are quite fun (assuming your motor is good!). 

I am interested in possibly getting a set of clincher carbon wheels for group rides, trying to eek out some aero advantages and have better braking and was wondering about Zipp 303? I have seen some not so good posts on these wheels and am also wondering if the dimple thing is a scam? Other recommendations for a lightweight carbon clincher?


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

JAG MN said:


> I have a set of Reynolds Stratus DV/UL's and I love them a lot. I put on 800 miles this year on them (training and racing) and like others believe that you should be able to ride them more than just racing. The acceleration possibilities are quite fun (assuming your motor is good!).
> 
> I am interested in possibly getting a set of clincher carbon wheels for group rides, trying to eek out some aero advantages and have better braking and was wondering about Zipp 303? I have seen some not so good posts on these wheels and am also wondering if the dimple thing is a scam? Other recommendations for a lightweight carbon clincher?


Francois, I too am wondering about the Zip 303's. In the shootout there is virtually no performance review on them. My LBS does not like the Zipps because of inconsistencies with hub quality. They recommend Reynolds. Did you notice any sideways play in any of the hubs?


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

I have some Zipps and some Reynolds both. Not the new current ones. One thing to keep in mind is that these are both pretty low production volumn brands and they change the designs and parts quite often, I think..I know looking at the Reynolds to get some parts for the crappy American Classic rear hub my set of DVs has, they had three different American Classic hubs they used on that wheel..Zipp, I gather, does change stuff, too..

My 303s, tubular, are my daily rims the rim I take to train on most days. My DV Lew/Reynolds are a much nicer, sturdier seeming rim, but they are too tall for every single day use and the A.C. hubs are pathetic..needing to be checked almost every ride and worked on often...One day, I'll have time to change them out for some good hubs. I also have some Cirro Reynolds tubulars that I just got, and I think they will be very useful..seem sturdy and light, too.

In my limited experience, the Zipps seem to have a better hub and a cheezy wheel rim while the Reynolds DVs, at least, have a better built carbon rim but mine have crap hubs..the Cirro..haven't even looked closely at those hubs yet..

Don Hanson


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## burl81 (May 20, 2005)

Francois,
Question about a lighter aero wheel vs. a heavier aero wheel (ie. Reynolds DV46-UL vs. Mavic Cosmic Carbone Pro). Inertia says once the heavier wheel is spun up it will hold a more constant speed and roll faster becuase of more rotating mass. Is this a true assumption?
Have you done any tests on the all carbone pro from Mavic? And why do they have a maximum tire pressure whereas Reynolds does not?
I want an aero race wheel, but a wheel I can do fast team/club rides on. And living here in Sonoma County, Ca. I want a wheel that can climb well as well as be fast on the flats and be strong enough for the not so great roads here. I've narrowed it down to these two because I feel Mavic and Reynolds make the most bombproof wheels...granted there is a 325g difference.

Any thought would be appreciated. Thanks


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

I believe the new 303 rims are 44mm not 38mm.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

cpark said:


> I believe the new 303 rims are 44mm not 38mm.


dude. this is from 2005.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Sorry, I posted it in a wrong section.
I meant to post it on Francais's article.
Francais was requesting any changes with the specs for his upcoming Carbon Wheel Shootout.


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