# 11-28 cassette / crankset ?



## dumalam (Mar 22, 2008)

*The 11-28 Cassette.*

In the new 6700 (or Sram for that matter), is the 11-28 cassette supposed to work, or intended for use, with the compact or the standard crank, or is it equally for both? 

I'm asking about the limits of the front derailleur, chainring difference, and the length of chain, as opposed to gear ratios (which is an issue in itself). The 11-28 certainly fits the 6700 rear der. according to its specs, but are the front chainrings, front der, and chain a limiting factor?

A shop told me that an 11-28 on a standard 53-39 is pushing it. That the 28 is too big a cog for a standard crankset and that if that's the gear I want, I should be on compact. But I think that the 11-28 makes much more sense for the standard than the compact, giving it a small gear of 39-28 which is almost equal to 34-25. Any thoughts? Any experiences? Thanks.

p.s Adding my vote to the Bring Back the 12-27 campaign.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

I've got an 11-28 and standard crank (SRAM SRM, which is built from a Force crank) on my CX/Winter training rig. It works fine.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Rear derailleurs have a "chain wrap" or "total capacity" specification, which removes guesswork on chainring & cog combos. 

"Total capacity" is defined = (# teeth difference on chainrings) + (# teeth difference between smallest & largest cog).

For what your considering, the "worst case" is the compact crank -- 
wrap requirement = (50-34) + (28-11) = 33. 

The std crank is less demanding -- wrap = (53-39) + (28-11) = 31. 

The _short_ cage 6700 derailler's chain wrap spec = *33*
http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/road/ultegra_6700/product.-code-RD-6700-SS.-type-.html

The _medium_ cage 6700 derailler's chain wrap spec = *39*
http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/road/ultegra_6700/product.-code-RD-6700-GS.-type-.html

Thus, the short cage derailler will work on either setup. The medium cage is more appropriate for a triple crank. 

The shop is hand-waving when they claim you're "pushing it". Plus, Shimano is conservative on their spec, you can often get another 1-2 teeth of RD wrap capacity, with careful setup.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

dumalam said:


> A shop told me that an 11-28 on a standard 53-39 is pushing it.


As said by the other posters, there's no mechanical reason why you couldn't pair an 11-28 cassette with a 53-39 crank. My guess is the shop was telling you that you'd be pushing it in terms of style. Accessorizing a pro-strength 53 front with a wimpy 28 rear is a serious fashion mismatch. The shop's looking out for your best interest.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

wim said:


> As said by the other posters, there's no mechanical reason why you couldn't pair an 11-28 cassette with a 53-39 crank. My guess is the shop was telling you that you'd be pushing it in terms of style. Accessorizing a pro-strength 53 front with a wimpy 28 rear is a serious fashion mismatch. The shop's looking out for your best interest.


Ahh, yes.
Any self-respecting, manly man will run 11-23 cassette with 53-39 cranks, and boast 500 watts FTP


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## JimP (Dec 18, 2001)

tom_h said:


> Ahh, yes.
> Any self-respecting, manly man will run 11-23 cassette with 53-39 cranks, and boast 500 watts FTP


The "Real" manly men only have 11-21 cassettes. The rest of us have 11-23s and 12-27s.


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## dumalam (Mar 22, 2008)

If I could bring it back from manliness to gears for a second. 

Tom H, thanks for that explanation. So I understand that 11-28 should work absolutely fine with standard. What about the chain? Does is just come in one size or is that determined by the gears. There's no mention of lengths on shimano's site. 

I wanted a standard with 12 27. Is a 6600 or 105 12-27 is a good option? Compatible? Or will a 6700 cassette work better and should just go with the 11-28. Or indeed compact and 11-25? Any adv of one over the other? Obviously a big gap on the 28.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

dumalam,

*1)* yes, the "short cage" 6700 rear derailleur will work fine with 11-28 and 53-39.

*2)* chains come in one length only, which is always excessively long for a road bike -- 114 or 116 links, typical. They always need cutting down to correct length. 

*3)* 6600, 6700, and 105 cassettes should all work fine, and there is no real difference in shifting performance, and negligible weight difference (might even be identical). The Ultegra series (6600-6700) typically has slightly nicer looking finishes than 105, on cassettes & chains, but there is no functional difference.

*4)* Gearing choices are highly subjective, and depend on your local terrain, fitness, and strength.

A 12-27 and 53-39 is a nice combo, able to handle moderate-to-steep grades (up and down) and flats, very well. 

An 11-28 will have some large gaps, which some (many?) might find objectionable. I'm of the opinion that 53 chainwheel and 11 cog is ridiculously high for most people, except strong pro/cat1/cat2 sprinters.

A compact 50-34 and _10speed_ 11-25 will lack the 16t cog, which some would find annoying. Otherwise, it's a fine wide-range combo. There's another thread debating 16t cogs, going on right now.

My primary road bike is a Camapagnolo _11-speed_ with 50-34 crank and 11-25 cassette ... it does have the 16t cog, and I love the combo -- very versatile. I get a 2.5% higher high than 53-12, and a 5% lower low than 39-27.

The typical gripe on a compact crank is needing to shift about 3 or 4 cogs when changing from 34 to 50 chainwheel (or vice versa). 
What's nice about Campy, is you can shift up to 5 cogs smaller or 3 cogs larger, with _one sweep_ of the shifter 

*5)* you didn't mention who will be installing the groupset -- you or shop. There are differences of opinion on the optimal method to size a chain. 
Some, including me, prefer setting chain length in the _small chainwheel - small cog_ . Others prefer the big-big combo when selecting length.
IMNSHO, _small-small_ is less subjective and more predictable.
This topic has been debated before, and I won't go into the specific techniques (unless requested).


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

I routinely run a 11-23 with a compact crank 50-34. When riding in the Rockies, I put on an 11-28 and everything works perfectly. Yes - I had to size my chain based on the 11-28. 
This is using DA 7900 and it also worked with 7800 and a 11-27. it also worked with 9 speed. This is what I've been doing for the past 6 years.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

My guess? The shop doing the hand-waving was unaware that the newer Shimano derailleurs (like the 6700) have more capacity/chainwrap than the old ones. 

And the newer Shimano derailleurs have more capacity for exactly this kind of situation... so you _can_ run an 11-28 with a 53-39 or even a compact crank, no problemo.
.


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## dumalam (Mar 22, 2008)

The shop will be doing all the building and installing. I'm just interested in all the details and want to know as much as I can. They are a Campy shop, but the Cervelos come with Shimano and I'm just deciding the gearing. Not an issue that they are Campy, right? Should be able to work with 6700 I assume. Especially if they get bikes from brands with Shimano and build and service them.

Ok. Just need to decide on the standard compact issue. I'm coming from 53-39 and 7spd 11-24 (ancient bike), which was fine in my area, but I did want an extra gear or two in some spots, hence the want for 12-27. But I don't think I;d be one for missing cogs. I think any 10spd will feel amazing.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

dumalam said:


> I think any 10spd will feel amazing.


I would think so too. Coming from your 11-24 seven-speed, the most dramatic change you're going to feel and appreciate will the small change in effort or cadence between each rear shift.

As to compact versus standard crank: also keep in mind that it's not that big a deal to change from one to the other. As said by other posters, the 6700 short cage rear derailleur would accomodate both types of cranks, and there's generally no need to change the front derailleur when switching to / from compact or standard crank.


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## dumalam (Mar 22, 2008)

wim, I was thinking about that too. As I understand it would just be a matter of changing the crankset. From the Shimano website, 6700 Ultegra uses the same front and rear derailleurs for both standard and compact with any of the cassettes, as opposed to a triple which uses the different derailleurs. Right? 

That would be some comfort knowing it just a matter of changing the crankset. Still, I want to try to get it right first time so I'm just mulling over the gear inch tables. Better to try a big change with the compact and 11 25, and then maybe going back to standard, or try a small change with 11 28 standard and maybe decide to go compact after? Anyway, I'm just thinking bout all the details. Thanks for all the help so far.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

Not many people have a real need for a 53/11 top gear, but if a compact crank is selected, a 50/11 would probably see ample use, since its just alittle higher than a 53/12. I use a 50/34 crank for the mountains, but I really don't like being restricted to a 50/12 top gear. I've got that on my winter bike, but it's no problem since the roads conditons are not suitable for high speed cornering.

It's really odd that Shimano dropped the 12-27 that should have been one of the most popular combinations. The 11-28 would give many riders more top gear than they need and eliminates the valuable 16T cog.

You can still get a 12-27 in a DA or 105 model cassette.

Another option that wasn't mentioned is the 11-23 with a 50/34. That gives almost as low a gear as a 39/27.

One issue with the new Shimano shifters is the limited shifting ability to larger cogs. They can only shift two cogs larger with one sweep of the brake lever. Those using a compact would often shift 3-cogs larger, right after shifting from the 34 to the 50 chainring. I certainly do a lot of 3-cog shifts with my compact setup, but Campy shifters can still do that in either direction.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

dumalam said:


> wim, I was thinking about that too. As I understand it would just be a matter of changing the crankset. From the Shimano website, 6700 Ultegra uses the same front and rear derailleurs for both standard and compact with any of the cassettes, as opposed to a triple which uses the different derailleurs. Right?


That's correct, 6700 Ultegra front and rear derailleur would work for both standard and compact. The chain length may have to be changed slightly, but that just takes a minute or so. A change to a triple would require a front and rear derailleur change, plus the (very expensive) left brake-shifter would have to be the ST-6703 triple shifter.

Taking a cue from C-40, I'd go with the 50-34 compact front and the CS-5600 (105) 11-23 cassette for nice tight shifts and a decent low gear. Later on, you could buy a CS-5600 12-27 cassette and some tools, allowing you to switch between cassettes. (After such a switch, make sure the chain is long enough for the 12-27 cassette in case you cross-chain to 50 x 27). With these two cassettes, you'd be prepared for almost any terrain or conditions. As a side note: don't buy Dura-Ace cassettes. They cost a fortune because they're a bit lighter. But they wear faster than 105 or Ultegra cassettes.

/w


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

C-40 said:


> It's really odd that Shimano dropped the 12-27 that should have been one of the most popular combinations. The 11-28 would give many riders more top gear than they need and eliminates the valuable 16T cog.
> 
> You can still get a 12-27 in a DA or 105 model cassette.


Wow, I didn't notice that until you mentioned it... Shimano not offering 12-27 in the 6700 line is indeed a puzzler and a poor decision. From everything I've seen, 12-27 'settes are _increasing_ in popularity, not decreasing. So... wtf? ut:

Oh well, at least SRAM (Shimano-compatible) still offers 12-27 for Force and Rival, should Shimano ever become foolish enough to drop it from the DA and 105 lines as well. 
.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

While it's "easy" to change between a Std and Compact crank, it's not cheap. Because the bolt circle diameter (BCD) is different between a 53-39 and 50-34, you have to replace the entire crank assembly, not just the chain rings.

As I mentioned earlier, some Shimano Compact users find it annoying to shift 4 cogs, when shifting front chain rings.

dumalam,
Since you've _already_ been using 53-39 and 11-24 7sp on your "ancient" bike, you apparently have the fitness to ride the 53-39 on most of your conditions.

A 53-39 and 12-27 would give you an 11-12 % lower gear than your old bike, and the 10sp's smaller increments on shifts will help keep your cadence and power-band optimized.
Plus, a new Cervelo will likely be substantially lighter than your "ancient" bike -- overall, you will feel a world of difference.

A "105" series 12-27 cassette shifts the same as 6700 ultegra -- it's just that the plating might not be nearly as pretty, but 1 ride's worth of road dirt tends to negate the difference ;-)

You can go nuts trying to make a "perfect" choice, and there's several valid opinions on the merits of the different combos. It's probably most important to make an informed choice of Std vs Compact first, since changing cranksets is fairly expensive. OTOH, cassette changes are inexpensive -- I've seen 105 cassettes on sale in the $30 range.

good luck!


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## dumalam (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks for the advice. So a last question.

Is there any difference between the new 6700 cassette and last years 6600 ultegra? Would a 2009 ultegra 6600 be better than 2010 105 for the 12-27 option?

If it's just weight then I don't care. But I heard that the 6700 now has a unidirectional chain but wasn't sure if that meant changes in the cassette teeth and/or dimensions like width.

Thanks


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

dumalam said:


> Is there any difference between the new 6700 cassette and last years 6600 ultegra? Would a 2009 ultegra 6600 be better than 2010 105 for the 12-27 option?


There are differences, but these have no bearing on interchangeability. 6700 cassettes are a bit lighter, and there are some slight modifications on the shifting ramps and gates to, supposedly, make shifting even better.

As to the 105 vs Ultegra choice: I'd go with 105, but I'm a cheapskate. Keep in mind that cassettes are wear items. You can extend the life of a cassette by careful chain maintenance and immediate replacement of a chain when it reaches its wear limit, but the time will come when the cassette is worn out. The sign is a _new_ chain skipping (actually jumping a tooth on a cog) under power. 

/w


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## jamesbrowm (Jan 24, 2007)

Wanted to get a second opinion about chain wear. One shop said I needed a new chain using the Park chain checker, another bike store said it was not necesary using the Shimano tool. Ended up getting 11-25 Ultegra cassette. Original bike setup Ultegra SL with lone Dura Ace rear derailleur, standard 53/59 crank, with a Sram 1070 11-28 cassette. Was my LBS pushing me to buy a new cassette? There was hardly any wear on the old cassette.


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## gnatman (Jan 14, 2009)

Doesn't SRAM make a 12-26 that would be fully compatable with Shimano componets?

This seems to be a reasonable gear range for most riders, especially with a compact crank.

Can any with experience running an SRAM cassette with Shimano drivetrain comment on hwo well it shifts compared to pure Shimano?


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## jamesbrowm (Jan 24, 2007)

jamesbrowm said:


> Wanted to get a second opinion about chain wear. One shop said I needed to get a new chain using the park tool another shop said some wear but not needed usind shimano tool .The latter told me 11-28 was pushing the limit , ended up getting a 12-25 ultegra setup with still a bit a play left on the limit screw of the rd. Bike setup ultegra sl with a lone dura ace rd. Specialized still offers quite a few of their models with a 11-28 config. My mechanic sells high end stuff Colnagos, Cervelos, Scott, etc. My old cassette was hardly worn sram 1070. The 11-28 was pushing my limits my have to walk up those hills now (lol). Should I assume the new 6700 series and higher should have no problems accomodating the 11-28 combo?


My apologies, I should have been more specific. I'm riding 39/53 Ultegra SL crank. As far as riding goes, I'll let you know when it stops snowing.


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