# Switching to better components - Sora to Ultegra



## mac8300 (May 7, 2014)

Hi guys, I need your wisdom. I recently bought a used Raleigh Prestige road bike. It has Shimano Sora components on it, 3 gears in the front and 9 gears in the back. I want to switch to Ultegra 6700 components. Will I be able to get away with just the brakes/shifters, and the front and back derailleurs? Or will it require more components? Thanks in advance.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

mac8300 said:


> Hi guys, I need your wisdom. I recently bought a used Raleigh Prestige road bike. It has Shimano Sora components on it, 3 gears in the front and 9 gears in the back. I want to switch to Ultegra 6700 components. Will I be able to get away with just the brakes/shifters, and the front and back derailleurs? Or will it require more components? Thanks in advance.


You can keep the brakes but you shouldn't. The rest has to go.

Your old setup is 9 speed, your proposed new setup is 10 speed.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> I want to switch to Ultegra 6700 components.


Why? What benefit do you hope for from this expenditure?


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## davcruz (Oct 9, 2007)

What you absolutely must have to go 10 speed from 9 speed is:

-Shifters (you need triple front shifter if you keep the crank)
-Cassette
-Chain

That being said though, I would do the entire group at once. Braking will be improved greatly and the crank will weigh less and be stiffer and have one less chain ring.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Before you spend $$$ on an expensive Ultegra groupset, ask yourself the question what do you hope to achieve from this upgrade? Does it shift or brake poorly? Do you want to shed weight.

If weight is the issue, you would probably do yourself a bigger favor by upgrading your wheelset as rotating weight makes an overall bigger difference.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

davcruz said:


> What you absolutely must have to go 10 speed from 9 speed is:
> 
> -Shifters (you need triple front shifter if you keep the crank)
> -Cassette
> ...


^^^ This ^^^

RDs don't have "speeds", except in Marketingland. A triple FD can be used with a double crank, but not the the way around.

Last month I finally wore out enough 8-speed stuff to warrant upgrading my Sora commuter from 8-speed to 10-speed. (The goal was to get an 18t cog in there.) I used 5600-series 105 levers, an Ultegra 12-23 cassette, and it was time for new pulley wheels on the old 3300-series Sora RD. Shifted just fine before, still shifts just fine. A little crisper maybe, but that'll be due to the fresh pulley wheels.


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## SlowJoeCrow (Sep 3, 2009)

From experience Sora 3x9's shifting isn't that great and I really don't like the Sora/2300 release trigger. On the other hand Ultegra 6700 is probably way too nice for the frame and other components, so a more sensible and cost effective option would be find some lower cost 2x10 stuff like 105 or Apex and use some of the savings on wheels and brakes.


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## bigjohnla (Mar 29, 2010)

I had a 3 x 9 Sora equipped Trek 1.2 for my first modern road bike. It was an entry level bike. I enjoyed it and put over 15,000 miles on it. Compared to my mid 70s old friction shifting Raleigh, it was a vast improvement. The only thing I upgraded was the front derailleur, more of a replacement really. From Sora to Ultegra. (I found one on sale for the same price as a 105) The old Sora FD had gotten corroded by me sweating on it all the time and was not shifting very well any more. I upgraded my whole bike to a carbon fiber Bianchi with 105 drivetrain. I got it as a previous year close out for about $700 under list. Just a better bike all the way around. Lighter, more comfortable, better handling. A new drive train would improve your current ride a little but would likely cost you half the price of an new bike. I still have the old Trek. It is nice to have a back up/ bad weather bike. Down the road I will likely bring it to Missouri and leave it my son's house.


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## mac8300 (May 7, 2014)

Hi JCavilia, I got the bike at a very good price. If I plan on keeping it for a while I'd like to make it more enjoyable to ride... although it is not bad now. But I am now thinking 105 instead of ultegra. Then I'll switch after 2 years.


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## mac8300 (May 7, 2014)

Lombard, I didn't think about the wheelset, that is an idea. I'm also thinking about 105 compos instead of ultegra.


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## mac8300 (May 7, 2014)

SlowJoeCrow, yes Lombard suggested the same thing. I'm going to start doing some searching for 105 compos. Right now I know nothing.. being new to this road biking thing. But I really like it.


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## mac8300 (May 7, 2014)

Yeah, the cost is a big concern for me. If I can't find cheap enough 105 compos I'll bag the whole idea and ride it for a year then upgrade. But I must admit that I do have some hobbyist blood in me...


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

brucew said:


> ^^^ This ^^^
> 
> RDs don't have "speeds", except in Marketingland. A triple FD can be used with a double crank, but not the the way around.
> 
> Last month I finally wore out enough 8-speed stuff to warrant upgrading my Sora commuter from 8-speed to 10-speed. (The goal was to get an 18t cog in there.) I used 5600-series 105 levers, an Ultegra 12-23 cassette, and it was time for new pulley wheels on the old 3300-series Sora RD. Shifted just fine before, still shifts just fine. A little crisper maybe, but that'll be due to the fresh pulley wheels.


Oooooooh, I get it. So the rear derailleur is sort of like a robot and the shifter tells it what to do? I.e. w/ limit screws and tension you can make a "7-speed" RD shift 10 gears if you have 10 indices in your shifter? Is that about right?


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

TehYoyo said:


> Oooooooh, I get it. So the rear derailleur is sort of like a robot and the shifter tells it what to do? I.e. w/ limit screws and tension you can make a "7-speed" RD shift 10 gears if you have 10 indices in your shifter? Is that about right?


Sometimes this is true (such as with Shimano 8,9, and 10 speed rear road derailleurs) and sometimes it is not (such as 10 speed shimano road to 10 speed shimano mountain.)

If the derailleur is designed around a different pull ratio than the shifter is designed for, it will not work (such as 9 speed to 10 speed SRAM rear derailleurs on the MTB side. 

As is usually the answer, it depends on what system you have and what you're trying to do.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

TehYoyo and Msont,

Shimano and SRAM shifters have a different pull ratio so you must have the same brand of shifters and rear derailleurs with the exception of some of SRAM's mountain shifters which are specificly designed to work with Shimano derailleurs. Also, Shimano Dyna-Sys shifters and derailleurs are specific and cannot be mixed.

In general, rear derailleurs do not care how many speeds your shifter have as long as the pull ratio is the same. It is a spring. I own a hybrid that was originally an 8 speed with a Deore rear derailleur. I have this exact model and vintage derailleur on a touring bike with a 10-speed.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Lombard said:


> TehYoyo and Msont,
> 
> Shimano and SRAM shifters have a different pull ratio so you must have the same brand of shifters and rear derailleurs with the exception of some of SRAM's mountain shifters which are specificly designed to work with Shimano derailleurs. Also, Shimano Dyna-Sys shifters and derailleurs are specific and cannot be mixed.
> 
> In general, rear derailleurs do not care how many speeds your shifter have as long as the pull ratio is the same. It is a spring. I own a hybrid that was originally an 8 speed with a Deore rear derailleur. I have this exact model and vintage derailleur on a touring bike with a 10-speed.


Some stuff is compatible. Some isn't. If you want to use "derailleurs do not care how many speeds your shifter have" as the clearest way you can state that sometimes stuff is cross compatible, knock yourself out I guess. 

Rear derailleurs do care what shifters they are mated to. Very much so. They must be compatible in order to work properly. Some of them have cross compatibility, such as shimano 8-9-10 speed road and 8-9 speed mountain, as one example. Others don't, like shimano 10 speed road and mountain. Making general statements like "derailleurs do not care how many speeds your shifter have" is neither clear nor helpful.

Rear derailleurs also must work with the appropriate cassette size and front chainring. It isn't just the shifter.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

masont said:


> Rear derailleurs also must work with the appropriate cassette size and front chainring. It isn't just the shifter.


I don't understand the comment about the chain ring - could you elaborate on this?
Thanks


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

brucew said:


> RDs don't have "speeds", except in Marketingland.


I currently have a 9-speed Sora 3500.
Are you saying I could put a Dura Ace 7900 right shifter on my bike with a 10 speed cog and a 10-speed chain and run my Sora RD just fine?


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## davcruz (Oct 9, 2007)

SpeedNeeder said:


> I currently have a 9-speed Sora 3500.
> Are you saying I could put a Dura Ace 7900 right shifter on my bike with a 10 speed cog and a 10-speed chain and run my Sora RD just fine?


Yes, you can do exactly that although the difference between the left and right shifter would drive me bananas personally.


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## Croptop (Jul 2, 2013)

Interesting discussion (and timely since I'm considering upgrading the group set on my old(er) Cervelo P3 from very an old Ultegra 9-sp group set to a new(ish) Ultegra Di2 group set). One of the things I am a little unclear on, though, is whether or not I'm going to have to replace my rear wheel hubs. Will 10-sp cog sets fit on the same hub that 9-sp cog sets fit on? I've got three different rear wheels for this bike (a training wheel, a deep rim racing wheel, and a disc) and if it turns out that I'll have to put a new hub on each of these wheels then I probably won't bother with the upgrade.


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## mac8300 (May 7, 2014)

I'm thinking of switching gears now... pardon the pun. I'm thinking of getting a Tiagra 4600 groupset from a coworker's 2012 Specialized road bike and replacing the Sora stuff that is on my 2005 Raleigh Prestige. Is this feasible? Will the compos fit?


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## Nater (Feb 7, 2003)

Croptop said:


> Will 10-sp cog sets fit on the same hub that 9-sp cog sets fit on?


Yes. 8-9-10 speed all use the same freehub body.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

SpeedNeeder said:


> I don't understand the comment about the chain ring - could you elaborate on this?
> Thanks


He's referring to what called 'capacity'. The following was taken from Sheldon Brown's website.

"The "capacity" of a particular derailer model is the largest range of sprocket sizes it can handle: For front derailers, when the derailer is mounted high enough to clear the largest chainwheel, there is a certain minimum size that you need for the smallest ring so that the chain won't be dragging over the bottom of the front cage. Different front derailers have different capacities depending on how tall their cages are. It is expressed in a number of teeth, which is the difference between the largest and smallest chainwheel. For instance, a 52/42/30 crank set would call for a front derailer with a minimum 22 tooth (52-30) capacity. 
Front derailers are also designed to be used with a certain size for the largest chain ring. The curvature of the outer cage plate is matched to this size. If you use a different-sized big ring, capacity may be reduced. If the big ring is substantially larger than the derailer is designed for, shifting precision will suffer. If the big ring is much smaller than the derailer is designed for, it may shift OK, but you are likely to have to "trim" the front derailer as you shift the rear derailer to the extremes. 
A front derailer for triple chainrings also may need to have an inner cage plate adapted to the size difference between the outer and middle chainrings. If this difference is more than a few teeth, the inner cage plate must be deep from top to bottom, so it can push the chain from small chainwheel to the middle one without overshifting it onto the large one. The cage plate also may have a special shape, intended to improve this shift. 
For rear derailers, the capacity relates to the amount of chain slack the derailer can take up, and is equal to the front range (22 in the example above) plus the rear range. Thus, if you have a 52/42/30 crank set, and a 12-28 (16 tooth difference) cluster, the total capacity required would theoretically be 38 teeth (22 front difference + 16 rear difference). 
Manufacturers specify this fairly conservatively. They must do so, because they have to assume that some of their derailers will be sold to incompetent cyclists, who will abuse their drive trains by using the smallest chainwheel with the smaller rear sprockets. 
Competent riders can considerably exceed the official rated capacity, since they will not misuse the granny ring by running it with the smaller rear sprockets, so it doesn't matter if the chain hangs slack in those gears. 
Rear derailers are also commonly designed for a particular maximum size of rear sprocket. If you exceed this size by too much, the jockey pulley may rub against the sprocket when using the lowest gear. 
Derailers will also commonly work with larger sprockets than manufacturers' ratings suggest. For instance, Shimano's models designated as "road" derailers are generally listed for a "maximum" sprocket of 27 teeth...because 27 teeth is the largest size that bShimano makes in a designated "road" cassette. However, in almost all cases, these derailers, even the short-cage models, will handle rear sprockets as large as 30 teeth in practice. (This somewhat depends on the design of the frame's derailer hanger, so once in a while you will find a particular installation where you can't use a 30, but I've never seen one where a 28 wouldn't work.) 
I'll also mention that many folks seem to be a bit mystified and intimidated by derailers. They're actually quite inexpensive and easy to replace, so it is foolish to allow the limitations of a particular derailer to keep you from having the gearing appropriate to your riding style/needs."


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

mac8300 said:


> I'm thinking of switching gears now... pardon the pun. I'm thinking of getting a Tiagra 4600 groupset from a coworker's 2012 Specialized road bike and replacing the Sora stuff that is on my 2005 Raleigh Prestige. Is this feasible? Will the compos fit?


Feasible? Yes.
Will the components fit? Yes.
The real question is, Why? If things are wore out, then yes, replace. If they aren't though, what's the point? Properly adjusted Sora works fairly well. If you really want to have Tiagra, you could buy the group new for @ $375.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

SpeedNeeder said:


> I currently have a 9-speed Sora 3500.
> Are you saying I could put a Dura Ace 7900 right shifter on my bike with a 10 speed cog and a 10-speed chain and run my Sora RD just fine?


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Junior's explanation is the best I've seen so far. I should mention that my LBS bike mechanic managed to get my Ultegra road derailleur to work with an 11-32T cassette by putting in a longer B-adjust screw and taking a link out of the chain so the jockey pulley does't clash with the largest cassette cog.

Of course, this would not work with someone who is not in tune with the way their gears work. If one tried to shift in the largest front and rear gear (a combination I would never do anyway), the drivetrain would cease.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

brucew said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.


sweet!


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## Metaluna (Aug 26, 2005)

SlowJoeCrow said:


> From experience Sora 3x9's shifting isn't that great and I really don't like the Sora/2300 release trigger. On the other hand Ultegra 6700 is probably way too nice for the frame and other components, so a more sensible and cost effective option would be find some lower cost 2x10 stuff like 105 or Apex and use some of the savings on wheels and brakes.


Even better would be to look into the new Sora 9 speed stuff, i.e. 3500/3503 in this case. Then the OP could just upgrade the levers and be done with it. The new Sora does away with the thumb button on the shifter and it's really pretty nice, IMHO. The upgrade in subjective feel between old Sora and 3500 is probably greater than 3500 -> Ultegra 6700. This is especially true ever since Shimano went with under-tape cable routing, which makes the shifter feel a bit less positive, IMHO.


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