# How to train to be a better climber?



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Looking for a winter routine on a trainer that will make me a little better of a climber (where I suffer the most right now.)

Any experience here?


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2007)

climb, then some more climbing, then when your done with that climb some more.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Yeah, simple enough in theory: climb more, lose weight, raise your thresh. power by doing some hard work.

ps, everyone suffers most on climbs.

they are steep.


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

I'm lucky that I'm pretty small (5'11"; 135lbs), but Arg is right: everyone suffers on the climbs. To paraphrase Lemond: you'll get faster, but it will never be easier.

And to echo the previous posts, just climb, dude. Find a good climb in your area and just go up at your pace. After a couple times, start pushing it a little, then a little more. Then start shifting to a higher gear. Repeat.

If you have weight to lose, consider it.


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## Icculus (Mar 14, 2007)

Try some EPO...seems like it works for the pros.:23:


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

The problem is I have no decent climbs within 45 minutes (very flat here.) 

For the winter, I'm stuck on the trainer as well.


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> The problem is I have no decent climbs within 45 minutes (very flat here.)
> 
> For the winter, I'm stuck on the trainer as well.


ride the 45 minutes.. then do the climb.. then ride home?


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

45 mins? That is not very far. Good warmup, and a bit more.

To "climb" on the trainer, crank the resistance or gearing up, and raise the front wheel. It doesn't really simulate it very well, but it's better than nothing.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Argentius said:


> 45 mins? That is not very far. Good warmup, and a bit more.
> 
> To "climb" on the trainer, crank the resistance or gearing up, and raise the front wheel. It doesn't really simulate it very well, but it's better than nothing.


Should have been 45 miles, sorry. Thinking of 60mph by vehicle.

Guess I'll have to look in some training books for some climbing routines for trainers. Anyone have any thoughts on a decent training book?


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

Even if you have no really long climbs, there must be something around you can go up? Even (many) repeats of a highway overpass or longer rollers will work, though of course it will prevent getting used to those long efforts. Then again, if you don't have those kinds of inclines where you live, what's the point in training for them, you know?

It's flat here in Memphis, too. We have some rollers, but the longest climb in our area is about .4 mis or so. I do 5-6 repeats of it once a week during the season and call it good. When we ride over in Chattanooga or someplace with substantially longer climbs, I do at least as well as the locals so I guess it's working.

Most of the books you will read will say pretty much the same thing: find a climb and do it and keep doing it.

I have a Spinervals DVD for training for climbs on a trainer. I can mail it out, though it will be a few weeks before I can send it out. PM me your name/address if you're interested and you're welcome to it gratis. It wasn't what I expected...


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

The problem with trainers is that, although you can simulate some climbing muscles while seated, you are still not able to rock your bike back and forth. Thus, climbing while standing cannot successfully be worked on until you find a hill outdoors. Also, you find extra motivation on an ascent to keep going (and go harder) when you hit 4mph and are ready to tip over...and you aren't even over the top. You won't find that on a trainer.

I sort of agree with another (above) poster -- why train for it if you are never going to encounter it?


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## homebrew (Oct 28, 2004)

Strong head winds help. As others have said do repeats up overpasses in you 53x12 and take that car ride once a week and climb. There are some spinning vidios that help. Consider a week vacation in the mountains, it does wonders or better still a winter training camp


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## wfrogge (Mar 5, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> The problem is I have no decent climbs within 45 minutes (very flat here.)
> 
> For the winter, I'm stuck on the trainer as well.


On you climbing day workouts use hard gears and low cadence.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Ride at and just above threshold, i.e. intervals.


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## trekman10 (Mar 19, 2006)

*parking garage*

if you have a parking garage near go there at night when there is no cars and climb climb climb, its better than nothing


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Awesome. Thanks for the info on the trainer workouts.

The reason I'm looking for some climbing prowess is that I split my time between this flat area and another area with loads of hills that just kick my ass. Hopefully I can come out of the gate next season with a little more capability.


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## TeamCholent (Apr 20, 2005)

Climb Stairs.
Find a Tall building and go up 4 flights down 3, up 4 down 3, etc.

or 

Stair master in the gym

or
Get in the car, drive 30 minutes, ride, do the hills and ride back.

Hey, I'm in NYC and it's pretty flat. We bike to the hills, climb climb and ride back.

As they say if the mountain doesn't come to mohammad, then mohammad bikes to the mountain


good luck

Rob


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## teffisk (Mar 24, 2006)

im pretty sure someone has said this already but i didnt feel like reading every post.

Hill repeats. end of story. find the biggest longest steepest hill you can ride to and peak it then ride back down and turn around at the bottom and repeat. The hill I use is about .7 miles long at about 8% and I will do it maybe 12 times in a day (6 and 6 to be honest). Its hell but it is the absolute best way to get results. enjoy


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## Swildey (Oct 24, 2007)

Lots of decent sound advice so far...here's what I have to offer...I live in South Florida, not exactly hill country. What I do is work out on my elliptical trainer with the resistance set hard and instead of grabbing the two long arms I grab the center part of the machine and raise up onto the ball of my foot...I also take the stairs whenever possible as well as doing some low weight squats a couple of times a week...I have one bridge about 20 minutes by car and I will transport the bike there and do a series of repeats a couple of times a month. I hopes this helps.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Also, if you plan on running stairs, look into plyometrics.


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## The Flash (May 6, 2002)

I'm in Florida and I have plenty of climbing 12 miles from my house....it's not big, but you just have to repeat until you puke....

BTW, I am a horrible climber....

Flash


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## Tecopa Red (Jun 27, 2006)

Carmichael Training Systems and Spinervals both market training DVDs devoted to improving your hill climbing ability and designed to be used on a trainer. I think they're both good. If you bought a couple you could alternate workouts to help avoid boredom.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Fly to Italy and ride stage 15 of the 2008 Giro a few times. Pordoi, San Pelligrino, Giau, Falzarego, finish at the top of the Fedaia. Then the next day you can do the Sella, Gardena, Campolongo, Falzarego from the other side, Tre Croce and finish it off up the Tre Cime di Lavaredo. No stopping for lunch either, which will help with the weight loss.


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

Climbing well is primarily about your power to weight ratio. You can train to improve the numerator to a degree, but most people will see a bigger improvment by reducing the denominator.


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## root (Sep 13, 2007)

Climbing a hill is not that much different than any other type of cycling. Yes, it does require you to learn how to pedal out of saddle from time to time and how to choose a shortest path, or how to handle the bike well.

Climbing a hill requires you to put out constant wattage for a long period of time (just like time trial). So if your functional threshold power (or power at lactate threshold) is high relative to your weight, you will be a relatively good climber. So your goal should be to increase your FTP, and you do that by doing 2x20min intervals at 90% to 105% of your FTP once or twice a week.

You can do these on a trainer (your heart rate should be between 85 and 90% of your max if your are well trained). But the best way to do these intervals is by looking at power output not heart rate.

Note the goal is not only to increase FTP, but also to maximize power per kilogram, which means lose as much weight as you can without losing power output (easier said than done).


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## wfrogge (Mar 5, 2007)

if you go the 2x20 interval route (honestly its the best way to go) doing them at a lower cadence of say 60 will benifit climbing better than doing them at 100.. unless you climb at 100rpm then nevermind.


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## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

wfrogge said:


> if you go the 2x20 interval route (honestly its the best way to go) doing them at a lower cadence of say 60 will benifit climbing better than doing them at 100.. unless you climb at 100rpm then nevermind.


dang, if you're climbing at 60, think about a triple or a compact. Maybe reduce cadence to the 80s (or 10-15 rpms under your "flat" avg) for simulated climbing intervals, but 60 is just too low for most (IMH - unscientific - O).


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> Looking for a winter routine on a trainer that will make me a little better of a climber (where I suffer the most right now.)
> 
> Any experience here?


I would invest in 2 items that work great together when training. They are kind of expensive, but they work like no other training tools I have used. It was money well spent.

1. Powercranks
2. E-motion Rollers made by Inside Ride

These 2 tools helped me climb faster and harder this last season. I improved my lactic threshold and my legs really didn't hurt as much this season as they did the year before.


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## wfrogge (Mar 5, 2007)

shawndoggy said:


> dang, if you're climbing at 60, think about a triple or a compact. Maybe reduce cadence to the 80s (or 10-15 rpms under your "flat" avg) for simulated climbing intervals, but 60 is just too low for most (IMH - unscientific - O).


Its not about racing/mid season climbing at 60 its about building power this time of year. If you legs can handle that interval set at 60 it can handle it at 80 no problem.

Lot of guys will do 2x20 at 90+ rpm but who climbs with that kind of cadence? I vary my 2x20 cadences between 70 and lower one day and 90+ the next.... Gives me the best result


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## teffisk (Mar 24, 2006)

powertaps are a bit cheaper and pretty much the same thing.


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## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm not a scientist, so I'll have to object to your extra-low cadence theory with my own anecdote. For several years, I worked on my cadence. I got to where I would ride around at 105+ ALL the time. I would work very hard to even use these high cadences on my trainer. 

Last year I said F-it, cadence doesn't matter from a training perspective. I know how to pick the right gear for the right circumstance, right? Well my trainer cadence went down to the mid 80s. And I do a lot of time on the trainer. But then five minutes into the first flat (cold and windy) time trial of the year, there I was, merrily spinning it up at 107. 

My point? "Training" cadences is a red herring. The resistance you are experiencing and your available gearing will dictate your cadence, not whether you've trained to spin at a certain cadence. And I stand by my comment that if you are consistently climbing at 60 rpm, you need more gearing options. That's just too low.


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## wfrogge (Mar 5, 2007)

Just like some do single leg drills or powercranks pushing a hard gear with a low cadence will help build muscle needed for climbing.

I never said do all 2x20 drills at a low RPM.. I said mix it up and do one low and one with high cadence. Also I didnt say I climb at 60 RPM either... im talking about a workout that will help with climbing by in a sense simulating lifting weights on the bike.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

shawndoggy said:


> I'm not a scientist, ...


But he is. http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining/


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

wfrogge said:


> Its not about racing/mid season climbing at 60 its about building power this time of year. If you legs can handle that interval set at 60 it can handle it at 80 no problem.
> 
> Lot of guys will do 2x20 at 90+ rpm but who climbs with that kind of cadence? I vary my 2x20 cadences between 70 and lower one day and 90+ the next.... Gives me the best result


I do my intervals at 95+ cadence, and I climb with 80ish. When I'm in form (i.e. not right now... student), my LT is 300 watts. That's true whether I'm climbing or on the flats... even though I never train at a cadence of 80, due to my ridiculously fragile knees.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Climbing at 60 cadence should be reserve for 1/2mi hills at 18% grade. Right ethan?

"Training" at 60 cadence is worthless, imo. It's just a recipe for disaster. If you aren't strong enough to climb a hill at 70-80+ rpm, then buy a triple.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> Climbing at 60 cadence should be reserve for 1/2mi hills at 18% grade. Right ethan?
> 
> "Training" at 60 cadence is worthless, imo. It's just a recipe for disaster. If you aren't strong enough to climb a hill at 70-80+ rpm, then buy a triple.


I'd say training at a 60 cadence is worthwhile under some circumstances - i.e. 120, 130% LT at 50-60 cadence for 1-3 minutes. No longer, and no less power... If you're doing LT at 60... well yeah you said it pretty well.

There's no way I was doing a cadence of 60 on that hill. I think my left knee would have survived that... it's _still_ screwed up like a week later from that damn "hilll".


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## Joe Starck (Nov 27, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Looking for a winter routine on a trainer that will make me a little better of a climber (where I suffer the most right now.)
> 
> Any experience here?


Maybe get lifts for your heels? :
...entonces, go up a quarter, then down a quarter, then up an eigth, then down an eigth, then up a quarter, then down an eigth, then, wtf, ask a ballet star or somebody, nawt me; but seriously folks, pedal with your heels down and foget about lifting on the upstroke; just get maximum drive outta your best arc over and down and oh bit o' the snap at the end, methinks. Cough, cough...


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

On the spin bike at the gym I used to finish my interval routine with James Brown "Sex Machine' which runs almost exactly 5 minutes and has the repeated chant "Get up... get on up" and a nice steady 60 beat, plus the bonus of JB going "HUH!" every once in a while.

So what I'd do is crank the resistance knob all the way down tight and stand up and keep that cadence for 5 minutes.

Later that year when I went to Arkansas to ride the steepest hills I could find (like I do every year), I had no trouble getting up 'em all, out of the saddle, stomping away.

FWIW.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


> Later that year when I went to Arkansas to ride the steepest hills I could find (like I do every year), I had no trouble getting up 'em all, out of the saddle, stomping away.


Arkansas can die in a fire...

Anyways, standing intervals are usually at a lower cadence and help build leg muscle. It's also really good for learning how to deal with lactic acid and increasing pain tolerance.

A seated 60rpm, imo, is too low for anything -- even at 130%FTP for 1-3min. 75rpm is still low but can still reap as many benefits as 60rpm -- it doesn't tear up your knees as much and it helps keep your HR up.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> Arkansas can die in a fire...
> 
> Anyways, standing intervals are usually at a lower cadence and help build leg muscle. It's also really good for learning how to deal with lactic acid and increasing pain tolerance.
> 
> A seated 60rpm, imo, is too low for anything -- even at 130%FTP for 1-3min. 75rpm is still low but can still reap as many benefits as 60rpm -- it doesn't tear up your knees as much and it helps keep your HR up.


You got the ticket in Oklahoma, not Arkansas. Arkansas (Texas?) is just home to that disaster that is Texarkana


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Oh yeah, that's right..heh


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Stay on the scene
Like a sex machine
HUH!


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## Cruzer2424 (Feb 8, 2005)

don't eat?


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## Eric_kenney (Oct 26, 2006)

Raising the front wheel on the trainer is the best way to simulate a hill inside. 
You don’t have to raise it much. 
And yeah, do some low RPM stuff. It will help build your muscle endurance (as Friel calls it). ME is key for climbing!!


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Eric_kenney said:


> Raising the front wheel on the trainer is the best way to simulate a hill inside.


The main effect of a climb on riding is changing the inertial load. How does altering the angle of the bicycle do this? The relative positions of the three attachment points do not change.


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## Eric_kenney (Oct 26, 2006)

I would agree with you in changing the load. Raising the front wheel puts your hips/ body at a different position and uses some muscles in a different way. I can' say scientifically what but it does. Don’t you think feels different to ride up hill? Regardless of intensity...


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## Blue Sugar (Jun 14, 2005)

Go and ride up some hills. I spent a day in Asheville over the holidays, and man, just one ride, 35 miles, made a better climber out of me.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Eric_kenney said:


> Raising the front wheel puts your hips/ body at a different position and uses some muscles in a different way.


Your body is not in a different position relative to the pedals, everything is just rotated a few degrees around the rear axle, and since muscles are used to ovecome the resistance from the pedals, not gravity, that rotation makes no difference in muscle recruitment. Of course riding up hill feels different, see my earlier post.


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## Eric_kenney (Oct 26, 2006)

this is from Carmichael, 
its all I can find right now...
"_ you are involving more muscles while climbing than on flat terrain. Since more muscles are being used, more blood is required for these muscles, hence a higher heart rate. _"


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Eric_kenney said:


> this is from Carmichael, ...


'nuff said.

But really, if the position of the hips and pedals don't change, how could more or different muscles be involved?


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## SpencerM (Dec 5, 2007)

I'v had some good climbs in my Spin class, it's a really good workout! 

tee hee


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## trangkista (Aug 14, 2007)

This is just my own invention. I ride rollers when I cannot ride outside. To simulate climbing, I slightly elevate the front of the rollers to get the right position and lower the air pressure in my tires. It really feels like I am climbing when I do this.


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## Albino (Mar 24, 2007)

If there are no hills near you, do you race on hills? If not, why worry about getting better at them?

Just curious.


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## MarkFank (Apr 17, 2005)

Spinervals 7.0 DVD is focused on climbing. It's a pretty good trainer work out!


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> The problem is I have no decent climbs within 45 minutes (very flat here.)
> 
> For the winter, I'm stuck on the trainer as well.


In the cold months I work on walking lunges in the gym. I highly recommend them. I do sets of 50. Once I get that down with just body weight, I add a 20 lbs ball/wgt. It will shred the muscles used in climbing.


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## w4ta (Aug 27, 2007)

Curious about the folks who dismiss the simulation of hill-work in spin classes. What's the gripe? 

Certainly, many folks in spin have never been on a road bike (including some of the instructors), and there is no doubt, many of these folks would not know how to exert themselves properly or gear their bikes on a true climb... but I am pretty good on hills (I enjoy the hell out of climbing)... and I can get a butt-kicking workout in spin. 

It's what you do with the machine. Some will exert themselves and grow... others will spin mindlessly and just listen to the music. Many of these machines are stable and well balanced with multiple setting options that- in my experience- provide a good simulation ... valuable when one cannot get out on the road.

... admittedly, many of the instructors are a joke... but... if you take a machine in the back row, no one really cares if you ignore the ridiculous commands of the instructor. One should fashion his workout based on personal experience and needs. The class merely offers a machine and some reasonably motivating music... you supply the rest.


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## thegock (May 16, 2006)

*Climbing on the trainer*

Rob,

I agree with root, frogge and eric kenney above. I use the trainer in the dark in the winter. In fact, I am going back to it tonight after a month off which I needed to deal with a nagging injury.

For hills, the 2x20 at 95% are great. Also the Spinervals DVD Hillacious is good. My riding partner and I joke about waiting for the CEO of the bread company to cardiac out. The advantage of the DVD is that it makes you stand which is important when attacking on the hills. Later in the season, when I have some form, I will double the length of the most intense sections of Coach Troy's workout and halve the rest sections. My name for that workout is Hillarious.:23: 

I also have Joe Friel hill DVD which is kind of boring but you do get to see Mr. Periodization...

The problem for me with the trainer is that even in the hardest segments of the workouts the power demands are nowhere near what you must overcome on real hills. E.g. if you have to climb a half mile, 15% average grade, hill you will find it more demanding than the most grueling trainer workout. Now try a half mile with a 28% pitch at the top...But the trainer workouts do help. So I can understand why many of the replies are off-topic "go out and ride hills."


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

asgelle said:


> Your body is not in a different position relative to the pedals, everything is just rotated a few degrees around the rear axle, and since muscles are used to ovecome the resistance from the pedals, not gravity, that rotation makes no difference in muscle recruitment. Of course riding up hill feels different, see my earlier post.





asgelle said:


> But really, if the position of the hips and pedals don't change, how could more or different muscles be involved?


If you are seated, the rotation in your hips does change your position. It's sort of like doing a TT without a TT bike -- getting much lower while seated than you are used to. Training like this for long periods of time is difficult and does recruit slightly different muscles.

Honestly, the best training for hills that I've found is to find a really hard one and ride up it multiple times with guys who are stronger than you. It's easier to push yourself when you have someone to pace you up the hill. Or just race up it with people who are close to your ability. It hurts like hell, but hills are about learning to suffer, anyways.


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