# What's the big deal about lugged frames?



## Cooper1960 (Oct 14, 2010)

Over the years I have read or had people talk about lugged frames as if they were almost mystical, frames like C50 or Look 585. I'm just wondering what the big deal is, would I really wet myself with glee if I road one of those magical frames? Or is it just another case of hyperbole?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Cooper1960 said:


> Over the years I have read or had people talk about lugged frames as if they were almost mystical, frames like C50 or Look 585. I'm just wondering what the big deal is, would I really wet myself with glee if I road one of those magical frames? Or is it just another case of *hyperboil*?


hyper what? 
i think when most people talk about lugged frames they're talking about steel, not carbon. lugged carbon frames are pretty low tech when you consider the other methods being used. 
lugged steel frames can be pretty fancy, depending on the skill of the builder. google it and check out some images, you'll understand.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Actually, the Colnago lugged carbon frames can be made into custom sizes which not possible to do with a mold. I wouldn't call them low tech by any means. 

I agree with your brifter opinion BTW.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Lugs look artistic that's why myself and others like them. But lugs have been found on older style carbon fiber bikes, usually aluminum sometimes titanium lugs were used. Merlin Cielo was a good example of a lugged CF frame and it looked fantastic...but rather pricey. Also lugs in themselves can be plain to very ornate.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

Cooper1960 said:


> Over the years I have read or had people talk about lugged frames as if they were almost mystical, frames like C50 or Look 585. I'm just wondering what the big deal is, would I really wet myself with glee if I road one of those magical frames? Or is it just another case of *hyperboi*l?


Hyperbole.

Folks like what they like. Lugs can strike one's fancy because of their 'artisanal' properties and how they can often enhance the looks of a bike.

Lugs don't make for a different ride. The method of joinery makes very little difference. 

I have Tig'd, lugged, carbon and aluminum bikes. I like 'em all!


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> lugged carbon frames are pretty low tech when you consider the other methods being used.


Oh really?
Lugged carbon are some of the best carbon frames around. Pay attention around 2:00






Lugs on steel bikes are to hide welds and to allow steel builders to bling up their bikes so people will be interested in them and they can charge more. 
All you need is some steel tubing from Home Depot and a scroll saw to carve out some fancy curlicue lugs and ta da!! A frame you can get thousands for.
Will you wet your pants on a lugged frame? Only if you have bladder control issues, but it certainly not hyperbole, unless it's on a steel frame.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

maximum7 said:


> Oh really?
> Lugged carbon are some of the best carbon frames around. Pay attention around 2:00
> 
> 
> ...


oh yeah, because advertising HAS to be true, right? and if you're serious, your knowledge of lugged steel frames is pretty much non-existent.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

maximum7 said:


> <snipped>
> Lugs on steel bikes are to hide welds and to allow steel builders to bling up their bikes so people will be interested in them and they can charge more.
> All you need is some steel tubing from Home Depot and a scroll saw to carve out some fancy curlicue lugs and ta da!! A frame you can get thousands for.
> Will you wet your pants on a lugged frame? Only if you have bladder control issues, but it certainly not hyperbole, unless it's on a steel frame.


The above, my friends, is hyperbole, or as the OP said: "hyperboil".


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

maximum7 said:


> Oh really?
> 
> 
> Lugs on steel bikes are to hide welds and to allow steel builders to bling up their bikes so people will be interested in them and they can charge more.
> All you need is some steel tubing from Home Depot and a scroll saw to carve out some fancy curlicue lugs and ta da!! A frame you can get thousands for.


Dude, did you make this up or did some drunk in a tavern explain it to you?


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

velodog said:


> Dude, did you make this up or did some drunk in a tavern explain it to you?


+1... Lugged steel frames are freaking beautiful.


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## Cooper1960 (Oct 14, 2010)

OK, OK, I corrected my hyperboil comment to hyperbole but honestly think hyper "boil" is more appropriate, as in a bunch of exaggerated opinions boiling over the top! lol.

Seriously I can appreciate the ornate beauty and craftsmanship of some lugged frames and have owned both steel and aluminum lugged bikes, but never a lugged carbon frame. And obviously with a custom lugged frame you can fine tune all the tube lengths to fit your needs perfectly so it should ride like a dream. 

My question was directed more toward ride quality of those mystic frames I mentioned, the C50 and the 585. I have heard both those bikes described as "best frame ever" because of the lugged construction. I have even found myself searching for a good 585 to build up even though I have never ridden that frame, just because I bought into the hyper"boil" and feel I need one. 

Thanks for the comments.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

maximum7 said:


> Oh really?
> Lugged carbon are some of the best carbon frames around. Pay attention around 2:00
> 
> 
> ...



TO HIDE WELDS!? 

LOLOLOLLOLOL. That's hilarious.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

maximum7 said:


> Oh really?
> Lugged carbon are some of the best carbon frames around. Pay attention around 2:00
> 
> Lugs on steel bikes are to hide welds and to allow steel builders to bling up their bikes so people will be interested in them and they can charge more.
> ...


Hide welds?
Steel tubing / scroll saw?

I have to assume this is an (failed) attempt at humor, because if it is not, you have taken the term "willful ignorance" to new heights.

If you had convinced yourself that you had any credibility on this and similar topics, I have bad news for you -- you certainly don't have it anymore.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

JustTooBig said:


> Hide welds?
> Steel tubing / scroll saw?
> 
> I have to assume this is an (failed) attempt at humor, because if it is not, you have taken the term "willful ignorance" to new heights.
> ...


Hey! He spent alot of time making up that true story.

Lugs are beautiful.


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> your knowledge of lugged steel frames is pretty much non-existent.


Talk about about believing advertising.....

I'm going to start a steel frame website as soon as I get back from Home Depot and my "how to splatter paint" class. 
Pegoretti, watch out! 

I'll be taking orders after the holidays. 

Merry Christmas everyone! Stay tuned.


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## climbinthebigring (Mar 13, 2011)

It comes down to the fact that people like looking at bikes in addition to riding them. I see bikes as tools and would never buy a lugged steel bike but I can appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into them even if I don't think they are worth what most custom frame builders are asking. Especially the likes of Pegoretti, Vanilla, etc. 

Lugged Carbon is simply an easier way to produce carbon frames but doesn't really give any enhanced performance or else more than just a few companies would be making a few of their bikes that way. 

Consensus concerning lugged bicycle frames: Meh.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

maximum7 said:


> I'm going to start a steel frame website as soon as I get back from Home Depot and my "how to splatter paint" class.
> Pegoretti, watch out!


Seeing has lugged frames are not welded, you've got a lot to learn before you make that first Home Depot frame.


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## lbkwak (Feb 22, 2012)

maximum7 said:


> Lugs on steel bikes are to hide welds and to allow steel builders to bling up their bikes so people will be interested in them and they can charge more.
> All you need is some steel tubing from Home Depot and a scroll saw to carve out some fancy curlicue lugs and ta da!! A frame you can get thousands for.
> Will you wet your pants on a lugged frame? Only if you have bladder control issues, but it certainly not hyperbole, unless it's on a steel frame.


You are funny. Mr. Troll


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## SteveOz1 (Sep 5, 2012)

Lugged construction does allow a lower temperature brazing (vs high temp tig welding)that has less affect on the metallurgy of the tubing ...but definitely allows artistic expression like the frames above!


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

The above lugged steel frames are gorgeous. :thumbsup:
The ride quality of the carbon bikes you speak of, comes more from the tubing material selection, than the lugs they're fitted into.


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

White lugged carbon frames look like they are made of those PVC tubes used in a home's plumbing.


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## mcteague (Feb 7, 2005)

Seven uses lugs on their carbon\ti bikes. Lugs can allow for custom geometry in cases such as this. For steel, they allow lower temp brazing and give more surface area for the brazing medium.

Tim
View attachment 272411


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

when lugs are a 'cost adding' technology (in the case of steel bikes where one needs skilled brazers to do the job) it is an antiquated technology

when lugs are a 'cost saving' technology (allowing mfrs to build multiple frame sizes w/out having to make a multitude of monocoque molds) it is the benchmark in frame construction

funny how advertising works


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

maximum7 said:


> Talk about about believing advertising.....
> 
> I'm going to start a steel frame website as soon as I get back from Home Depot and my "how to splatter paint" class.
> Pegoretti, watch out!
> ...


How are you gonna get the lugs over the tubes after you've welded them?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

rufus said:


> How are you gonna get the lugs over the tubes after you've welded them?


Doh!!!!!!!

they must have hidden seams


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> How are you gonna get the lugs over the tubes after you've welded them?


Well know if everybody knew the secret, we wouldn't have to pay so much for steel would we. 

Lighten up guys.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)




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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

All kidding and sarcasm aside that's a very cool video! Thanks for posting. 

Interesting what he said at the 3:00 mark, which sounds like advertising and hyperbole to me.


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## colorider7 (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't consider myself an expert on frames (by a long shot), but I tested all types of frames over the summer (carbon, steel, Ti) in searching for my long anticipated dream bike and before ultimately purchasing a lugged carbon Colnago c59; simply put, IMHO the lugged carbon c59 delivered the best overall ride quality by far; interestingly enough, my second favorite was a Cyfac (another lugged carbon frame); it's obviously a highly personal choice, and all of the higher end frames delivered something very special (I was "upgrading" from my first bike which was mostly aluminum with some carbon); in any event, anyone interested in hand-made craftsmanship should check out the link below to a short video on the c59 production process -- pretty cool... Good riding... Colorider


Building a C59 Italia: The art of bike building | Colnago


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

maximum7 said:


> All kidding and sarcasm aside that's a very cool video! Thanks for posting.
> 
> Interesting what he said at the 3:00 mark, which sounds like advertising and hyperbole to me.


The joints between the frame tubes have very high stresses that are concentrated at the miters. The lug spreads that stress out over a larger surface area than, say, in a TIG welded joint, reducing the potential for joint failure. Also, the much lower temperatures of silver brazing (compared to the heat used for welding) doesn't compromise the strength of the tubes in the heat affected zone (HAZ) like welding did before the introduction of air-hardening steels.

That's not to say a TIG-welded joint isn't perfectly adequate and plenty strong, especially when micro-alloyed air-hardening steels like Reynolds 853, True Temper S3, and Columbus Foco are used.

Spectrum Cycles | Materials



Spectrum Cycles said:


> WHY WE STILL USE LUGS
> Our steel frames are lugged for two reasons. Lugs are stronger and lugs are beautiful. Did we mention that Lugs are stronger? Almost all mass-production steel frames produced today utilize cost-effective tig welding to join tubes. This prompts a question: why do we still use silver soldered lugged joining? There are two basic answers. First, properly fitted and soldered lugged joints are considerably stronger than joints created any other way. Second, they give us and other traditional builders a way of showing off. We can demonstrate, not only our soldering skill, but also how we believe a frame's details should appear.
> 
> ON STRENGTH
> ...


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## Eyorerox (Feb 19, 2008)

I have a Llewellyn, it rides beautifully and looks great, at least to me. Interestingly I decided on a lugged steel bike after looking at a friends c40.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Eyorerox said:


> I have a Llewellyn, it rides beautifully and looks great, at least to me. Interestingly I decided on a lugged steel bike after looking at a friends c40.


Dazza makes gorgeous bikes! :thumbsup:


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I happen to love the look of lugs, it adds artistic quality to the bike instead of just a weld; it's like who cares, a lot of people can weld, it isn't rocket science, even $1.75 an hour Chinese people can weld. And carbon fiber bikes look like kids plastic toys. But that's just my opinion.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Saying lugged carbon frames are low-tech is just as stupid and ignorant as saying lugged steel frames are made to hide the welds. 

That being said, between getting a lugged carbon and lugged steel frame from equally reputable manufacturers, I would go for steel any day.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

Way back in the early 1980's the majority of bicycles were lugged steel. I came along to the start line in an upstart companies aluminum frame. (Cannondale) Everyone stared, some asked why the tubes were so large in diameter. I was the outcast stranger. 

Over the years, somehow, carbon and aluminum won the battle. Their large diameters now rule and it is rare to spot the skinny and out of place steel bike. 

When I see the lugged steel bicycle, I see quality and craftsmanship. I see expensive steelworkers who will charge you an arm and a leg. I see a lost craft mired in tradition and excellence. 

Unfortunately I ride carbon fiber stamped out in China. Someday, I will have the money enough to afford a steel downtube shifter and I will ride it proudly. It has gone from the standard, to the rare. Rare beauty, sweet ride. Only the young riders will wonder and never know.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

lbkwak said:


> You are funny. Mr. Troll


WOW, I think I just wet my pants, for real. If this doesn't convince you lugs are beautiful then nothing will. Seriously, how many hours did it take just to mask that frame before painting. Those frames are too nice to ride. They are art.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Hooben said:


> Unfortunately I ride carbon fiber stamped out in China. Someday, I will have the money enough to afford a steel downtube shifter and I will ride it proudly. It has gone from the standard, to the rare. Rare beauty, sweet ride. Only the young riders will wonder and never know.


If you look long enough you can find older mid to high end used lugged steel bikes for under $500 and a few of them will be in excellent condition with just some minor "repairs" like cables, pads, seat, chain, maybe a gear cluster and or chainring. I find them on rare occasion around where I live and if they fit I buy them. There are even new lugged steel bikes available for a lot less money then the expensive ones you hear about, like this one: Adrenaline Bikes You can buy the frame and fork and simply locate an older group set probably through E-bay, or if you can find a bicycle swap meet in your area, and some of those groupsets may even be new condition never used.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Steel frames generally are tig welded which is the standard for a low cost production frame. Also you can get a lugged frame or a fillet brazed frame (lugless) if you wish for a fair price.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Silver brazed lugged stainless steel.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Scooper said:


> Silver brazed lugged stainless steel.


Niiiiiiiice!!!!!


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I ride a lugged frame. The ride is fantastic. 
Is the ride quality the result of lugs? I honestly don't know and don't care.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Scooper said:


> Silver brazed lugged stainless steel.


There's a fine example of the PVC look that Bike Layne mentioned a couple posts ago.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

froze said:


> There's a fine example of the PVC look that Bike Layne mentioned a couple posts ago.


I think he was referring to the carbon fiber lugs on a Colnago C59. They do look a lot like PVC pipe. 

Photo credit: bikeradar.com


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Don't get me wrong, I have a Scot Addict LTD, Disc Roubaix, and a few other plastic bikes. But also have a few of these, cause they are purty.

And this 1972 silver soldered Nervex lugged Paramount is original chrome finish, and has a quality of ride that time has no effect on IMO. A purist ride that defies time IMO.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

when I first became aware of the allure of cycling, lugged steel bikes were nearing their peak of popularity.

I'd go to high-end shops and lust after the frames hanging from the ceiling...Ciocc, Guerciotti, Colnago, Tommasini, Basso, Olmo, Merckx, Masi, Raleigh, etc etc...

when built up, the artful lugs, combined with chromed forks, chromed stays seemed like perfection...of course, they were well beyond my financial means and I could only wish to own one.

are they the best riding frames ever made?...just depends who you ask. for me, they represent a 'golden age' of the road bike. 

I can pass dozens of modern carbon bikes and never give them a second look...they're mostly nice bikes, but I find them boring and uninspiring. when one of these vintages rides appears, it always grabs my attention.

just a Luddite I guess...bah humbug, get off my lawn, ymmv.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

Pegoretti seems to make classic steel frames without using lug and no one seems to complain about the looks or the ride. 

That being said the best carbon frame that I have owned is a Time VXRS closely followed by a 585, although I don't know how much the lugs contributed to the feel.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

ewitz said:


> Pegoretti seems to make classic steel frames without using lug and no one seems to complain about the looks or the ride.
> 
> That being said the best carbon frame that I have owned is a Time VXRS closely followed by a 585, although I don't know how much the lugs contributed to the feel.


Dario also builds with lugs on his Luigino frameset. 

Lugs serve a simple function in frame construction. They form a channel for the silver or brass to flow into to form the joint. The alternative method, before tubing suited to TIG welding was available, was fillet brazing. But this method requires more finishing so is less cost effective. Both methods allow easier repairs than TIG welding does as they only require heating to remove the joining matter. TIG requires the tube is cut out and filed back, not always possible on higher end tubing. Lugs also allowed builders to sign their work in a way. Every builder had their own style of hand-cut lug-work. 

In the early 90s tubing had been developed to allow the higher temperatures of TIG welding. This also allowed for non standard diameter and shape tubes, as well as thinner walls and shorter butts. A builder could build any geometry he wanted to without being constrained by the angles dictated by the lugs he was using.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

ewitz said:


> Pegoretti seems to make classic steel frames without using lug and no one seems to complain about the looks or the ride.
> 
> That being said the best carbon frame that I have owned is a Time VXRS closely followed by a 585, although I don't know how much the lugs contributed to the feel.


Actually Pegoretti builds one classic lugged frame, the Luigino, the rest of his frames are modern, tig welded frames. And while all his frames are beautiful, I, personally, find the lugged frame the best looking of the bunch.

Also, the "Days Done" is a lugged frame, the fork is carbon though. Steel fork on special order.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

I have lugged steel & carbon. I have tig steel & molded carbon. Also had an early Cannondale for a while. The one that rides best is the one with the best tubular wheels & tires; except the early Cannondale, it would shake my teeth loose with those 20mm tires (and it only had room for 23s).

I really like lugs but some can be over-th-top - rolling art is not my passion, but I appreciate it for the craftsmanship - long live the smaller builders! 
I have a lugged pencil holder from Calfee that is the 'best' pencil holder I ever owned.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SantaCruz said:


> I have a lugged pencil holder from Calfee that is the 'best' pencil holder I ever owned.


You got my interest, how about pictures of that pencil holder?


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