# Do riders power on the UP stroke?



## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Gentlefolk;

I am still sneakin' it, fredding along with shorts and tennies, and haven't made the leap to clipless yet. Not even clipped. But I have been wondering:

Do riders with clipless pedals power UP as well as DOWN on the stroke? Or is all of the power generated on the DOWN stroke?

Is the advantage of clipless pedals simply to keep the foot positioned, or can it be used to add power to the stroke?

Thx!


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

People used to think that expert riders exert an actual upward force on the ascending pedal, so you read a lot of hand-me-down advice telling you to "pull up.". Turns out that expert competitive riders up to and including pros don't do that during seated riding—almost all their power comes from a combination of downward force and rotational crank speed ("cadence").

Some riders manage to put a little bit of extra force on the pedal by pushing forward and pulling back, but it's very little compared to the downward force. IMO, the main advantage of being tied to the pedals is being able to pull up during an out-of-the-saddle effort or out-of-the-saddle climbing, elimination of falls caused by a foot slipping off the pedal and the fact that muscles stabilizing the foot on a non-binding pedal do not need to be recruited. As riding with an equally fit individual on platform pedals will quickly show you, the power added by clip-in pedals is mostly in your mind. But the great feeling of being connected to the bike is real, so get those clipless pedals ASAP.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I'll agree that it's most power on the down stroke, but there's some on the upstroke. Every little bit can count.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I'll agree that it's most power on the down stroke, but there's some on the upstroke. Every little bit can count.


Agree. I'm not saying that you can't add power on the upstroke—you can, pretty large amounts, actually. But the metabolic price of doing so is very high. Just a few seconds of seated "upstroking" will make you realize that.

For a burst of more power, better to get off the saddle and drop as much of your body weight onto the down-going pedal as you can. Gravity's free.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Most people don't get any power ON the upstroke because it's just not efficient. Cost/reward doesn't add up to be a good way to do it. 

But you can gain power FROM the upstroke by lifting the weigh of your legs quicker because you don't have to worry about your foot flying off thus you can start the down stroke sooner and more efficiently.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Hank Stamper said:


> But you can gain power FROM the upstroke by lifting the weigh of your legs quicker because you don't have to worry about your foot flying off thus you can start the down stroke sooner and more efficiently.


Hmmm...had not considered THAT aspect. Makes sense though..take weight OFF a pedal and you are transferring more power to the crank....

Geesh... youall may get me into clips and shorts yet. Still hanging onto the kickstand, however... <ggg>


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Cadent said:


> Geesh... youall may get me into clips and shorts yet. Still hanging onto the kickstand, however... <ggg>


Still not using clips and shorts?! Seriously, ditch the kickstand.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

There's also power to be generated when pedaling across the top of your stroke. On longer climbs I sit further back on the saddle and my power stroke starts as the pedals reach the position where they are perpendicular to the ground and continues through.the down stroke.

When you're not "attached" to the bike you can only pedal during a very limited portion of the pedal stroke. When you are attached, you can give a more consistent power stroke by pedaling in circles (although it takes lots of practice).


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

wim said:


> People used to think that expert riders exert an actual upward force on the ascending pedal, so you read a lot of hand-me-down advice telling you to "pull up.". Turns out that expert competitive riders up to and including pros don't do that during seated riding—*almost all their power comes from a combination of downward force and rotational crank speed ("cadence").*
> 
> *Some riders manage to put a little bit of extra force on the pedal by pushing forward and pulling back, but it's very little compared to the downward force.* IMO, the main advantage of being tied to the pedals is being able to pull up during an out-of-the-saddle effort or out-of-the-saddle climbing, elimination of falls caused by a foot slipping off the pedal and the fact that muscles stabilizing the foot on a non-binding pedal do not need to be recruited. As riding with an equally fit individual on platform pedals will quickly show you, the power added by clip-in pedals is mostly in your mind. But the great feeling of being connected to the bike is real, so get those clipless pedals ASAP.


+1 on the bolded statements. IMO/E power on the up stroke is practiced far less than cyclists may think, probably because the benefits are negligible and to practice it takes diligence.

I definitely think there are several benefits derived from the use of clipless pedals, but this isn't one.

As always, YMMV.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

over the last few months, I've been experimenting with 'pulling' each foot across the bottom of the crank stroke.

easiest way to describe it is to imagine scraping something off the bottom of each shoe between the 5:00 to 7:00 positions.

for me, this definitely creates a small amount of additional power while climbing. however, it's somewhat difficult to sustain over long distances and it made certain muslces quite sore when I first attempted it.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Data*



Hank Stamper said:


> But you can gain power FROM the upstroke by lifting the weigh of your legs quicker because you don't have to worry about your foot flying off thus you can start the down stroke sooner and more efficiently.


Yeah, except for the power stroke analysis for any number of world class cyclists shows that they don't do this. Just saying.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

In all the years that I've cycled, I've always had a "lift" on my up stroke. I'm used to it, i guess... I don't really think about it anymore. I've always used clips or clipless, too.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

For extra power when you need it wipe the mud off. You can only do this with your feet clipped in. Nobody does this all the time. They'd tire very quickly. When you need some acceleration or when climbing concentrate on pulling back (not up) at the bottom of each pedal stroke. It's like wiping mud off the soles of your shoes. As I said, nobody does this all the time, but for a burst of power like a short hill or starting up from a traffic light it's very effective. Your feet have to be fastened to the pedal to execute this.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

Pulling up hard might not be good for the knees either. I sometimes do it on my singlespeed MTB, when it looks like it might get me up some steeper part of a climb.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> Is the advantage of clipless pedals simply to keep the foot positioned, or can it be used to add power to the stroke?


As others have said, pretty much the first point. Keeping the foot positioned can indirectly "add" power -- or, more accurately, subtract less, becaue keeping the foot positioned without some attachment requires you to keep some pressure on the pedal during the upstroke, thus fighting the other leg that is on the downstroke. When you're attached, you can unweight more.

Incidentally, this advantage is provided by straps as well as clipless pedals, if you tighten them adequately. In the old days, with cycling shoes using a slotted cleat that slipped over the back of the pedal cage, you could pull the strap tight and have a very positive connection. Clipless pedals were a great advance for two reasons. One, the tight strap could be uncomfortable and interfere with circulation -- the shoe with clipless cleat attached is much more comfortable. Two, if you really cranked the strap buckle down, you had to reach down to loosen it to get out. Clipless pedals are easier to get out of in an emergency stop -- despite newbie paranoia about getting stuck and falling over.


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## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

There was a study of track riders by a Scandinavian university several years ago which indicated that the riders generally exerted most of their pedal effort form the 11 o'clock position clockwise to the 8 o'clock position and exerted little or no measurable effort from 8 to 11.

The same study claimed that the most efficient cadence range for cyclist as being 80 to 95 rpm


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

+1 for unweighting the pedal for the upstroke (while seated)

But I consciously switch to use my hams vs. quads. I "travel" more this way. When the group gets fast, a ham switch can relieve the quads for a short time period to let them recover. (On long steeps, I alternate, also let one set of muscles work while the other set takes it easier)

If you work both, then the spin can become real smooth and powerful.

But actually pulling up, not a great benefit for the cost. (On long rides the hip flexors will get really tired)


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## SidNitzerglobin (Jun 22, 2010)

I almost exclusively use the unweighted, forward/backward, push/pull, circular spinning technique and in my wholly unsupported anecdotal opinion, it seems to be a much smoother and more efficient method of pedaling than focusing on up/downstroking. 

This is pretty much impossible w/o being hooked into the pedals in some manner, and seems like it would be much harder to accomplish w/ toe clips than a cleated system.


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## Ghost234 (Jun 1, 2010)

I try to think of circles and get as much of the leg muscles into the stroke as I can. When I am seated doing climbs I make sure I put a little bit more effort into pulling up. During sprints I find the majority of my effort comes from my hamstrings as I try to rocket myself forward from the 10:00 to 2:00 position on the crank.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Small point on clips.*



SidNitzerglobin said:


> seems like it would be much harder to accomplish w/ toe clips than a cleated system.


Toe clips are a cleated system, consisting of the shoe cleats, the straps and the toe clips. Because millions of recreational riders used the clips and straps but rejected the important shoe cleats, the term "toe clips" may have taken on the watered-down meaning of "clips-and-straps only". Racers always used all three components of the toe clip system.


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## SidNitzerglobin (Jun 22, 2010)

wim said:


> Toe clips are a cleated system, consisting of the shoe cleats, the straps and the toe clips. Because millions of recreational riders used the clips and straps but rejected the important shoe cleats, the term "toe clips" may have taken on the watered-down meaning of "clips-and-straps only". Racers always used all three components of the toe clip system.


I've heard of these cleated toe clips, but never actually seen them in the wild of yet.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

SidNitzerglobin said:


> I've heard of these cleated toe clips, but never actually seen them in the wild of yet.


Yoshida still makes them, now with holes to (sort of) fit Look-drilled shoes. (When I was a junior, these cleats were still _nailed_ to the shoe sole.) The slot goes over the top edge of the rear pedal cage plate. The only way to get out is to lift the shoe. So if the strap is tight, there's no way to accidentally "uncleat" unless the strap broke.

http://www.euroasiaimports.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=785


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I used to have my cleats installed by a little Italian shoemaker who was a cyclist. My wife would hold the cleat against the sole of my shoe when I was strapped in. She'd draw a pencil line where the slot of the cleat should go. Next step - take them to a shoemaker to nail them on. There was no such thing as float - not a millimeter. You'd put you foot under the strap, snap your cleat on the pedal, then while riding reach down & tighten the strap. When stopping you had to reach down & flip the strap buckle open, pull up slightly & remove your foot from the pedal. The very best straps were Binda Extras. They were 2 pieces of leather with a plastic core inside. They wouldn't stretch like the plain leather straps would. Some guys used 2 straps but I never did. Clipless pedals are a quantum leap over the the cleat & strap pedals. IMO they're also safer. Clipless pedals are, IMO, one of the few real advancements of the last 50 years. I sure wouldn't want to go back.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Mr. Versatile said:


> I used to have my cleats installed by a little Italian shoemaker who was a cyclist. My wife would hold the cleat against the sole of my shoe when I was strapped in. She'd draw a pencil line where the slot of the cleat should go. Next step - take them to a shoemaker to nail them on. There was no such thing as float - not a millimeter. You'd put you foot under the strap, snap your cleat on the pedal, then while riding reach down & tighten the strap. When stopping you had to reach down & flip the strap buckle open, pull up slightly & remove your foot from the pedal. The very best straps were Binda Extras. They were 2 pieces of leather with a plastic core inside. They wouldn't stretch like the plain leather straps would. Some guys used 2 straps but I never did. Clipless pedals are a quantum leap over the the cleat & strap pedals. IMO they're also safer. Clipless pedals are, IMO, one of the few real advancements of the last 50 years. I sure wouldn't want to go back.


I got into it right after the "nail on" era. Still, no float. I'd love to find some NOS Binda Extras that weren't an arm & a leg!


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

OP: I am fairly "new" to road biking too. I resisted the clipless-pedal system for a couple of months after I started too. But as I started to ride more and more, I wanted to maximize by performance. I recently purchased some road shoes and clipless pedals for the first time. What I can say is that you definitely feel more "connected" with you bike. Maybe it's a psychological thing, but climbing the same hill near my house has gotten easier. I've also improved my time and average speeds on the hills and the flats. 

At this point, I am very glad I made the switch from my tennis shoes and platform pedals/no toe clips. Haven't fallen yet either....fingers crossed!


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Cni2i said:


> OP: I am fairly "new" to road biking too. I resisted the clipless-pedal system for a couple of months after I started too. But as I started to ride more and more, I wanted to maximize by performance. I recently purchased some road shoes and clipless pedals for the first time. What I can say is that you definitely feel more "connected" with you bike. Maybe it's a psychological thing, but climbing the same hill near my house has gotten easier. I've also improved my time and average speeds on the hills and the flats.
> 
> At this point, I am very glad I made the switch from my tennis shoes and platform pedals/no toe clips. Haven't fallen yet either....fingers crossed!


Thanks, Cni2i;

I will get there, right now just fredding my way through as my needs require. I don't have shorts yet -- havent felt the need yet, though 30-35 miles is my longest standard ride.

I don't discount the value of any of these rider must-haves, just haven't reached that point myself.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Cadent said:


> I don't discount the value of any of these rider must-haves, just haven't reached that point myself.


No, you just don't know any better yet. Once you have a fitted bike, the right seat, clipless pedals, good bib shorts, road shoes, a nice computer, good cadence, etc., you'll often wonder how you ever did anything without them.


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## moostapha (Oct 1, 2009)

There was a post about that question not long ago…according to science, pulling is basically useless. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=219781&highlight=pedaling+technique

What isn't useless IMHO is being able to use whatever foot/pedal angle you want…as in, you can point your toe farther forward or up (and move it around more) without worrying about slipping off the pedal…that's a good bit of why did it, other than people shouting "efficiency" at me. I'm sure they're right, but I don't care why.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

No. Unweight your foot only.


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