# Schlecks, master tacticians?



## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

I've watched two tours and a number of other races where the dynamic duos master tactic has been for everyone to tire themselves out chasing Frank and Andy to nip past and take the laurels. Success to date, in a sport where the rule is two good riders should always beat one faster one (see Garnin's result today), nil. The reason nobody really believes Frank is a contender.
Anybody else think the real irony of todays result is that Frank might just be a real contender and the brothers only tactic might now get results?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

baker921 said:


> I've watched two tours and a number of other races where the dynamic duos master tactic has been for everyone to tire themselves out chasing Frank and Andy to nip past and take the laurels. Success to date, in a sport where the rule is two good riders should always beat one faster one (see Garnin's result today), nil. The reason nobody really believes Frank is a contender.
> Anybody else think the real irony of todays result is that Frank might just be a real contender and the brothers only tactic might now get results?


Frank is less likely to crack and have a bad day during a regular stage. But he will not be a real contender until he improves his ITT.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

jorgy said:


> Frank is less likely to crack and have a bad day during a regular stage. But he will not be a real contender until he improves his ITT.


I think we tend to go to absolute extremes: first it's Contador who is all but out of the tour, and Andy Schleck is clearly crowned the winner. Today Contador is the winner and Andy Schleck might as well retire. One day Voeckler is a no-name lame opportunist who has no chance to hold to yellow, the next day he is the TdF champion.

I think this dynamics is precisely what makes the Tour so exciting - the Tour is back-loaded in the final week, and stages 18, 19 and 20 will prove to be crucial. Let's just watch what happens. I am rooting for a major showdown between Cadel, Schlecks, Contador, Sanchez, Basso and Voeckler. 

Should be interesting. Stay tuned.


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

Yes, it just about has to happen now - someone will go for broke on the Galibier or l'Alp d'Huez (or both). 

Can Voeckler survive ? 

Can the Schleck sisters gain enough time to overcome their inability to do anything but climb? 

Can Contador and Sammy Sanchez blow the entire field away on a single climb? 

Can Cadel rescue enough time to hold on until Sunday? 

I'm guessing no, no, yes, yes but anything can happen.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I've said since the early stages that Evans is the danger man. He's absolutely sterling so far, tactically and fitness wise. 

The problem with the Schlecks is that they want brotherly love on the podium. Frank needs to sit down with Andy and tell him "ride me like a rented mule and then attack and finish them off." How many times have we seen Andy attack shut it down when Frank is in difficulty? He had absolutely no killer instinct at all.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> I've said since the early stages that Evans is the danger man. He's absolutely sterling so far, tactically and fitness wise.
> 
> The problem with the Schlecks is that they want brotherly love on the podium. Frank needs to sit down with Andy and tell him "ride me like a rented mule and then attack and finish them off." How many times have we seen Andy attack shut it down when Frank is in difficulty? He had absolutely no killer instinct at all.


Yup.

A memo needs sent to Andy:



MEMORANDUM said:


> Attn: A. Schleck
> 
> To whom it may concern, the finish line is in front of you in a race not behind you. Stop looking over your shoulder, make like Jens Voigt, and inflict pain on people without constantly looking back.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

More like master moreons; from what I've seen they have the tactical execution of a rock.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

The last week of the Tour... people are going to crack, dramatically... it's so unpredictable and when it happens there are no tactics except ride baby ride.


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

Frank seems to be riding for Andy when it appears that Frank is the stronger rider.
On stage 15, the last climb, FS took off - nobody followed - he could've taken some real time as he was accelerating away from the contenders - what does he do, sits up and goes back to bottle feeding his brother. This could've been significant for his podium chances.
Today when AC, CE and SS took off he sits back with his brother although it appeared he had the legs to go.
They need to act as co leaders, especially if one is sufferring - FS putting all his hopes on his brother might put both off the podium. If one is good then he has to be the one to go. Poor tactics will cost them both. 
It will be almost comical if they continue this approach for the remaining mountain stages - as it is they may have spent thier chances for a podium spot today.

From what I can see, its a two horse race for the top two spots, AC, CE - and a 4 horse race for the final podium spot, SS, FS, AS, TV - Am I missing anyone for the final spot ?


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## serpico7 (Jul 11, 2006)

pdh777 said:


> From what I can see, its a two horse race for the top two spots, AC, CE - and a 4 horse race for the final podium spot, SS, FS, AS, TV - Am I missing anyone for the final spot ?


Basso. He's 7sec behind AC.


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

> Basso. He's 7sec behind AC


Agreed!


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

The Schlecks can attack only when it is suitable and possible: ie after the others are worn out and in difficulty. Obviously with Voeckler able to hang on, there are a lot of guys able to hang on and the field isn't ground down much yet. Today's stage near Gap is unique, though. Having ridden around there I am not surprised the Schlecks had difficulty: climbs not steep enough, not long enough to give them an advantage over their stouter competition. We have yet to see a real test in high mountains when it really, really counts. I was VERY surprised to see Contador attacking today, but I guess he had to follow Evans because he is so far down on GC already.

We can guess, of course. But based on history, the Schlecks will be very strong in the high alps, on 2 specific stages of which we all know. Also based on history, it is unlikely Contador can do the double in this age. Lots of drama to come! I still favour Andy to win it all. That is my guess, and I am often wrong.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

Andy needs to have a talk with Cadel and figure out how he turned his attitude and confidence around to become a winner. Here's a guy who consistently finishes high in big races, but doesn't know how to put the nail in the coffin. It's really getting tiring watching him wave to the other gc riders to take pulls when he's the one that thinks he has what it takes to win the race....take some responsibility for goodness sake.  The sorry excuses after races are also getting more frequent and more pathetic. Dude needs to grow up.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Andy has, with the exception of just a couple of one-day races, bet the farm on the TdF each year for the past 3 years. He treats almost every other race as training for July. So far this has not been a winning strategy for him. I hope he doesn't end up looking back on a career of second places and missed opportunities. On the other hand other team leaders such as Alberto, Cadel, Voeckler, Gilbert, ... and others race almost every single race as though their very lives depend upon it.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Couple things...

First of all the Schlecks do not have a strong team for the mountains. When their mountain "strongmen" are guys like Stuey O'Grady and Cancellara you know they're in trouble. They need real mountain goat domestiques like Basso's Schmidt or Contador's Navarro. No wonder Voeckler was able to retain the yellow jersey through the Pyrenees. 

Second, Andy has a Sophie's choice to make. He will _never _win the Tour if he keeps sitting up to wait for his brother on a climb. Never.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

The tag-teaming tactic can only work if 1. the competition aren't sure who might be going for the win at any given moment, even if sending Frank up the road is just a bluff because of his relatively weak ITT skills, and 2. each brother is prepared to drop the other in order to win.


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## erj549 (Jul 26, 2008)

PRB said:


> More like master moreons; from what I've seen they have the tactical execution of a rock.


except that falling rocks actually do damage. these guys, not so much.


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## erj549 (Jul 26, 2008)

ukbloke said:


> Andy has, with the exception of just a couple of one-day races, bet the farm on the TdF each year for the past 3 years. He treats almost every other race as training for July. So far this has not been a winning strategy for him. I hope he doesn't end up looking back on a career of second places and missed opportunities. On the other hand other team leaders such as Alberto, Cadel, Voeckler, Gilbert, ... and others race almost every single race as though their very lives depend upon it.


Yep, he is just so uninspiring only really "racing" at one event a year. Last year I wanted him to beat Contador just to be contrary to a foregone conclusion. But now, after further witnessing his bike handling (terrible), shifting (terrible) and time-trialing (terrible) abilities, I can honestly say that he's really only good at one thing, and that's not gonna win a grand tour for him. I mean he's on the same team as the time-trialing master himself, learn something about how to TT. Or spend a day at shifting camp where they will teach you not to shift your front chainring when you're cross-chained and out of the saddle in the middle of an attack. I think he would have a shot if he expanded his goals to more than climbing well at the TDF.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*that there*



erj549 said:


> except that falling rocks actually do damage. these guys, not so much.


is a winner!


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

il sogno said:


> First of all the Schlecks do not have a strong team for the mountains. When their mountain "strongmen" are guys like Stuey O'Grady and Cancellara you know they're in trouble.


That's a bit harsh - beyond the team leaders of Andy and Frank, there's Monfort, Fuglsang and Gerdemann who are good choices for domestiques and some climbing ability. Fuglsang had a great start to the TdF but has been MIA the last week, I don't know what's up with him - he should be a top 10 GC contender in his own right. They need hard men like Voigt, O'Grady and Cancellera for the valley roads, setting up for the climbs, the team time trial and for defending the yellow ... of course, that only matters if they actually get into yellow. I don't think you can blame the Schleck's situation on the team - it is more to do with their one-dimensional riding abilities.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ukbloke said:


> That's a bit harsh - beyond the team leaders of Andy and Frank, there's Monfort, Fuglsang and Gerdemann who are good choices for domestiques and some climbing ability. Fuglsang had a great start to the TdF but has been MIA the last week, I don't know what's up with him - he should be a top 10 GC contender in his own right. They need hard men like Voigt, O'Grady and Cancellera for the valley roads, setting up for the climbs, the team time trial and for defending the yellow ... of course, that only matters if they actually get into yellow. I don't think you can blame the Schleck's situation on the team - it is more to do with their one-dimensional riding abilities.


Fuglsang has troubles with his back and hip. He has been lacking as last support on last climb to set pace.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Creakyknees said:


> The last week of the Tour... people are going to crack, dramatically... it's so unpredictable and when it happens there are no tactics except ride baby ride.


Some crack, some peak. It sure will be interesting either way


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

The Schlubs might note the Gamin win against Sky, yesterday, to understand 2 against 1 tactics


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## 2Slo4U (Feb 12, 2005)

I've noticed that Andy is a master tactician! He is really, really good at taking the time to look behind him when leading the pack. I haven't decided if his intent is to figure out: A) where Frank is at? B) where Contador is? C) Asking someone else to come up and take the lead?

It's a joke.....if you're in the front and need time...then go and ride everyone off you're wheel. Do Not, I repeat, Do Not sit up after 10 meters to see who came with you....


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

Has he always done it that way? Obviously he's done damage in the hills before. How did it happen then?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Messrs Schleck need to take a leaf out of Gilbert's book










You look back *after* the finish line.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

ukbloke said:


> That's a bit harsh - beyond the team leaders of Andy and Frank, there's Monfort, Fuglsang and Gerdemann who are good choices for domestiques and some climbing ability. Fuglsang had a great start to the TdF but has been MIA the last week, I don't know what's up with him - he should be a top 10 GC contender in his own right. They need hard men like Voigt, O'Grady and Cancellera for the valley roads, setting up for the climbs, the team time trial and for defending the yellow ... of course, that only matters if they actually get into yellow. I don't think you can blame the Schleck's situation on the team - it is more to do with their one-dimensional riding abilities.


None of these guys have the mountain climbing firepower that Pierre Rolland (Europcar) or Sylvester Schmidt (Liquigas) has. Remember how Phil and Paul always joked that Stuey O'Grady has an allergy to mountains? Monfort is more of a time trialist. Voigt has always said that he is no good in the high mountains which is why he is able to win races like the Criterium International. 

Yes I do agree with you that their riding abilities are one dimensional. I just don't agree with Phil and Paul when they go on about Leopard Trek coming to the front of the peloton to put the hurt on the field on a high mountain climb.


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## Swish (Jul 31, 2004)

il sogno said:


> None of these guys have the mountain climbing firepower that Pierre Rolland (Europcar) or Sylvester Schmidt (Liquigas) has. Remember how Phil and Paul always joked that Stuey O'Grady has an allergy to mountains? Monfort is more of a time trialist. Voigt has always said that he is no good in the high mountains which is why he is able to win races like the Criterium International.
> 
> Yes I do agree with you that their riding abilities are one dimensional. I just don't agree with Phil and Paul when they go on about Leopard Trek coming to the front of the peloton to put the hurt on the field on a high mountain climb.


Still Jens and Stuart dropped arguably much better climbers in the pyrenees, the won't last till the top of the col, but they can and will put the hurt on.


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## jwcurry83 (Jun 21, 2010)

2Slo4U said:


> I've noticed that Andy is a master tactician! He is really, really good at taking the time to look behind him when leading the pack. I haven't decided if his intent is to figure out: A) where Frank is at? B) where Contador is? C) Asking someone else to come up and take the lead?
> 
> It's a joke.....if you're in the front and need time...then go and ride everyone off you're wheel. Do Not, I repeat, Do Not sit up after 10 meters to see who came with you....


I look at it very differently.. I think they were playing possum in the Pyrenees precisely to launch these brutal attacks on the two toughest days of racing in the Alps. The Schlecks did just enough "attacking" in the early mountain stages to gauge their competition this year. Leopard Trek has one more day of pain to dish out, and I expect to see both Schlecks on the podium in Paris.


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

The Shmuck brothers are master whiners!!!


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## jwcurry83 (Jun 21, 2010)

El Caballito said:


> The Shmuck brothers are master whiners!!!


A butt hurt Voekler/Cadel/Contador fan are we?? haha... and that whole "Shmuck" thing ,real original.... how about you post something at least semi-intelligent.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

qatarbhoy said:


> The tag-teaming tactic can only work if 1. the competition aren't sure who might be going for the win at any given moment, even if sending Frank up the road is just a bluff because of his relatively weak ITT skills, and 2. each brother is prepared to drop the other in order to win.


That's it. If they are happy with either winning, and considering they don't have a mountain team otherwise, they can tag team to devastating effect. One goes up the road, the other (who among the brothers currently has the best time) marks the rest of the elites, who will hesitate to go because they won't really put time into the guy that's riding with them but not helping. 

Next day, the new leader can mark, and yesterday's marker can play the tester. Since the guy riding with them is lead, what ends up is that they're marking the guy that's marking them, and bro 2 is free to make time. 

Now, it's not playing out that way, but as a strategy, it's gold. And as brothers, there's a fair chance that they really could trust one another to ride for each other equally. 

And should someone (conti) go up the road after a stage win, it's a free ride and each man for himself.

Master? No. But it's a heck of a plan if you can get both of them high enough in the standings in the early stages.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

jwcurry83 said:


> A butt hurt Voekler/Cadel/*Contador* fan are we?? haha... and that whole "Shmuck" thing ,real original.... how about you post something at least semi-intelligent.


Hit the nail on the head...


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

My biggest criticism is that today they seemed to be chasing Contador instead of trying to put time into Evans.


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## oldcannondale (Jul 23, 2011)

Well dudes the brothers Schleck were on the podium with Cadel Evans today, in spite of their detractors thats pretty awesome. There has to be some good genetics somewhere, and loyalty like that is commendable. Great TDF, and the first one I have been able to watch consistantly, nice to see their is still one gentlemans sport.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

oldcannondale said:


> Well dudes the brothers Schleck were on the podium with Cadel Evans today, in spite of their detractors thats pretty awesome. There has to be some good genetics somewhere, and loyalty like that is commendable. Great TDF, and the first one I have been able to watch consistantly, nice to see their is still one gentlemans sport.


agreed - nice to watch a sport with my kids where the 2nd place finisher compliments and congratulates the winner, and says simply that the stronger rider won. The Schlecks rode an aggressive Tour, animated it, and made it far more exciting to watch than any Tour I can remember since Lemond/Fignon.


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