# Da 9000 c24



## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

Sorry if this wheelset has been discussed before, but the forum search doesn't seem to be working properly for me (I even tried using a keyword that I clearly see in a current thread and it did not come up in search results...).

I'm tempted to purchase a set of DA 9000 C24 wheels to have as a backup/alternate set of wheels for my bike, and have a couple of questions. What's the point of the carbon laminate over the aluminum shell of the rim? I've seen a cross section of the rim and it's clearly a full aluminum rim that has a thin carbon laminate over it. I'm sure that it's not just a marketing gimmick to say "carbon" somewhere in the product description, but what exactly does it do for the wheel?

Also, I like my 23mm wide aluminum rim I have now. This wheel still has the older 20.8mm wide rim...is this "outdated" technology? The trend now is wider-is-better, so what's the story with Shimano? The C35 also uses a 20.8mm wide rim, it's not until you get to their C50 that it goes to 23mm. Apart from being a PITA to have to adjust brake cables to switch between wheelsets, what's everyone's opinion in regards to the 20.8mm width? Everything I've read is very positive about this wheel's lateral stiffness, so the width seems to be satisfactory to this end, but what about comfort and grip on the road?

Any current owners want to weigh in, especially if you are also an owner of 23mm wide rims? How about the hub, I can only assume a Shimano DA hub will be silky smooth, which is another selling point for me.

Oh, and apparently they make this in a tubeless version. I have no clue or any experience with tubeless wheels...any opinions on this as well?


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I have the 7900 CL version...

all I know is the wheels are light, strong, look nice, and were very affordable.

that satisfied all my purchase criteria.


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

The layer of aluminum under the carbon is very thin. The carbon laminate is a sort of hybrid, getting more of the strength/stiffness-to-weight of carbon without having to full carbon (which introduces other issues for braking, etc). Also, they are a lot cheaper than full carbon (compare the C24-CL to the C24-TU which is full carbon).


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

nhluhr said:


> The layer of aluminum under the carbon is very thin. The carbon laminate is a sort of hybrid, getting more of the strength/stiffness-to-weight of carbon without having to full carbon (which introduces other issues for braking, etc). Also, they are a lot cheaper than full carbon (compare the C24-CL to the C24-TU which is full carbon).


Ah ok thanks. Thought it would help with stiffness, but it makes sense to have it laminated on a full aluminum profile rim.


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## crank1979 (Sep 9, 2007)

I had the 7850 CL, and still have the 7900 TL and 9000 TL versions. They are excellent wheels. Tubeless is excellent for me with the extra puncture resistance without losing road feel due to using tyre liners on clinchers.

I've found them stiff enough. The 9000 felt stiffer than the 7900 wheels but they are also comfortable on rougher roads.

I've only just fitted a new, wider wheelset and haven't ridden it yet so can't compare the difference width makes on road tyres except that fitting the tyres was much easier on the new wheels.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I can chime in a few comments here. I've tried many wheelsets, all noncheap stuff.
Here is a list of wheels I have or have had used

DA C24 7850
DA C24 7900
Hed Ardennes Plus (25mm wide)
Zipp 303 Firecrest
Zipp 404 Firecrest
Zipp 101
Enve SES 3.4
Bontrager TLR Race (23mm wide)

All of them in clincher form. Of all these wheels, the Shimano C24 series are the narrowest of them all at 20.8mm wide. Then C24 9000 is also 20.8mm wide.

BUT.. after putting a lot of miles on all of these wheelsets, I have come to the definite conclusion that the Shimano C24 series wheelset is the NICEST all-around wheel of them all. But but but,, how can it be nicer than the Enve 3.4?? Read on for my review criteria..

1) hub. IMO, DA hub is one of the smoothest hub around. Loose balls, cup and cone, is the only way to go in hub, and I don't even know why they bother with sealed bearing. My Zipp 303 and 404 hubs don't come close to the DA hub quality. And oh yeah, DA hub don't have that stupid miniscule free play like them seal bearing hubs. Even the DT 240 hub used with the Enve don't roll nor is silent like the DA hubs. Sure DA hubs are not the lightest hub, but they are one of the most well built and well designed out there. If ANYTHING, the DA hub alone is a MAJOR factor in getting these wheels.

2) Ride comfort. Despite having a narrower 20.8 mm rim, these C24 are very very comfortable with a 23mm tire. Shimano certainly has done their homework in tuning the ride character of these wheels through using the correct material, spoke count, and rim width. The C24 rides MORE comfortably than ALL the wider rims I have tried. That's ride, C24 ride nicer than Zipp 303, 404, Enve 3.4. Now I can hear it from the Enve and Zipp guys now, what I say has got to be bs right? Nope. I've used 23mm and 25mm wide tires on these 303, 404, and Ses 3.4. And unless you run the 25mm wide tire in LOW PSI, you are NOT going to get a more comfy ride than the C24. But...BUT... if you these wide rims with wide tires (aka 25mm) AND using low PSI (because you wish for a comfy ride), then... the wheels become too SOFT and they wiggle when you're sprinting out of the saddle. 

I'm only 123 lbs, and just yesterday I tried running a Zipp 404 with 25mm tires under low psi (70 front, 80 rear) because I thought I would want a comfy ride, but when I got out the saddle for a little 40-50 meter sprint up a slope, they tires squirmed so much it's not funny. Normally I pump them up to 90/100 psi and so I don't notice their squirming. But at low psi (low enough so you can feel comfortabe), the price you pay is that they squirm! I have no idea how guys weighing much more than me can ride at low psi such as 80/85 and not notice their squirminess under high load.

However, if I use the same C24 wheels with 23mm tires and pump it up to 80/90 psi front/rear, then get significantly LESS squirminess.. AND I still retain more comfort. So Shimano has certainly done their homework in building the C24.

If all the wide rims want to beat the C24, they would need to run 23mm tires at higher pressure, then then their ride would be like crap compared to the C24.

In fact, I'm in the process of selling all my unused 25mm wide tires (mostly Conti 4000s) because they just don't accelerate well, they feel so sluggish compared to a 23mm tire. Yep, I tried the whole wide wheels, wide tire thing... and while wide wheel up to 23mm is good, but wide 25mm tires at low psi (which is what people who buy them do) is sluggish. Back to the old 23mm tires for me!

3) price. You can get a pair of brand new C24 online on sale for about $700 USD. You cannot come close to that price on any of the Zipp nor Enve.

My conclusion is if you like the C24, then get it. They are excellent wheelsets. And the Shimano warranty is also excellent. If something goes wrong, they will simply send you a new wheelset in less than a week! Period. They won't bother asking you what's wrong with them other then a cursory reason for them being faulty. Now my Zipp 404 had a little freeplay in the rear wheel that I could not tune it out (by preloading), and was on the phone with a Zipp rep back and forth. Eventually I got so frustrated and replaced all the bearings in that hub, problem solved! Zipp wheels were less than 1 yr old. If I had to do it all over, ALL my wheels would be shimano.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

aclinjury said:


> The C24 rides MORE comfortably than ALL the wider rims I have tried. That's ride, C24 ride nicer than Zipp 303, 404, Enve 3.4.


I respectfully disagree. My experience with C24 and Zipp 202 Firecrest wheels (I own both) is that the Zipp 202 Firecrest rims provide a more comfortable ride. On both wheel sets I use 23mm Michelin Pro4 tires, and I run 80-90 psi in the front and 90-100 psi in the rear. I weigh 160 lbs, and I ride on a fair amount of rough urban roads.

Please understand, I am not saying you're opinion is wrong...I am saying we all perceive subjective aspects differently.

As always, YMMV, and there are no absolutes.

I agree about the quality of the DA9000 hubs. In fact, I recently had a HED Belgium C2 rear wheel re-built with a DA9000 hub. Love it.

The DA C24 wheels offer an outstanding value, that's for certain.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I know you all can tell the quality of the hubs when you're playing with them while you're off the bike.

But how do you feel the hub's quality when you're riding?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> 1) hub. IMO, DA hub is one of the smoothest hub around. Loose balls, cup and cone, is the only way to go in hub, and I don't even know why they bother with sealed bearing. My Zipp 303 and 404 hubs don't come close to the DA hub quality. And oh yeah, DA hub don't have that stupid miniscule free play like them seal bearing hubs. Even the DT 240 hub used with the Enve don't roll nor is silent like the DA hubs. Sure DA hubs are not the lightest hub, but they are one of the most well built and well designed out there. If ANYTHING, the DA hub alone is a MAJOR factor in getting these wheels.


That's why I choose them for my own personal handbuilt wheels ~ fall/winter/spring wheels and summer wheels. I have two sets in use and two sets in storage. They're incredibly nice hubs. But I prefer to lace them into more easily available and less expensive rims & spokes. And with more spokes too.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

Dang, thanks for the discussion, and the thoughtful reply, ACLInjury (morbid nickname!!). I think I'm gonna go for it! If there's anything further I can add after a few hundred miles on them, I'll update the thread. Thanks again!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tvad said:


> I respectfully disagree. My experience with C24 and Zipp 202 Firecrest wheels (I own both) is that the Zipp 202 Firecrest rims provide a more comfortable ride. On both wheel sets I use 23mm Michelin Pro4 tires, and I run 80-90 psi in the front and 90-100 psi in the rear. I weigh 160 lbs, and I ride on a fair amount of rough urban roads.
> 
> Please understand, I am not saying you're opinion is wrong...I am saying we all perceive subjective aspects differently.
> 
> ...


you're right, "comfort" is a subject feeling. what's comfy for one may not be for another. so you opinion is just as valid as mine.

I'm so used to the feeling of a high psi snappy feeling of a wheel. At high psi, think a 123 lbs guys riding at least 90/100 psi front/rear, at that psi, the C24 is comfy for me while not sapping away the snappiness in an uphill sprint.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> That's why I choose them for my own personal handbuilt wheels ~ fall/winter/spring wheels and summer wheels. I have two sets in use and two sets in storage. They're incredibly nice hubs. But I prefer to lace them into more easily available and less expensive rims & spokes. And with more spokes too.


I think I would love to try DA hubs on the Belgium C2 (not the wider Plus) rims. But in the end, I think Shimano did their homework with tuning the ride character of the whole wheel and that include selecting a 20.8mm rim width. Certainly Shimano can go with a 23mm wide rim if they feel that is what would have done the job.

One excellent thing I like about the DA rims, they BRAKE incredibly well, better than all aluminum rims out there. The brake track of the DA rims are wide and flat, providing excellent bite for the rubber pads. I can fly down a sustained 10% average mountain for 5-6 miles using just 2 finger braking for the front lever and one finger the rear lever (don't want to lock that rear trailbraking around a corner!). Who needs disc brakes! My HED Ardennes rims do not brake with such ferocity as the DA rims though


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

myhui said:


> I know you all can tell the quality of the hubs when you're playing with them while you're off the bike.
> 
> But how do you feel the hub's quality when you're riding?


Honestly, probably can't tell how a hub ride when you're hammering. But.. you can definitely tell how a wheelset (as a whole) ride though. For example, the DA wheels ride quietly and elegantly. No loud obnoxious sound like the Zipp hub or the DT 240 of the Enve. And when you shift up and down the cassette on a DA wheel, it is SMOOTH and QUITE, none of this loud hollow sound. Like I said, Shimano design a whole system to work well, from rims to hub to drivetrain. Shimano is one of the most complete engineering company, they don't mess around.

But in your hands, the DA hubs are a work or engineering.
I'm considering selling the Enve 3.4 and go with a DA C24 set. I have since come to realize Enve ses 3.4 is a waste of money for me. I will probably just end up keeping one set of aero wheel the Zipp 404 for that flat, all out hammer fest with the guys. Everything else will be aluminum


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> Honestly, probably can't tell how a hub ride when you're hammering. But.. you can definitely tell how a wheelset (as a whole) ride though. For example, the DA wheels ride quietly and elegantly. No loud obnoxious sound like the Zipp hub or the DT 240 of the Enve. And when you shift up and down the cassette on a DA wheel, it is SMOOTH and QUITE, none of this loud hollow sound.


I've been riding these relatively low cost wheels for years and most of the time they're quiet and ride well:

http://www.wheelsfar.com/road-wheels/50mm-x-23mm-tubular-carbon-wheelset.html


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## black20 (Sep 10, 2012)

aclinjury, where have you seen a new set of DA c24 for $700? I would snag a set in a heartbeat at that price. $800 is about as low as I've seen it.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

black20 said:


> aclinjury, where have you seen a new set of DA c24 for $700? I would snag a set in a heartbeat at that price. $800 is about as low as I've seen it.


$686 w/free shipping at Probikekit.
$772 w/free shipping at Merlin Cycles


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## HermesSport (Oct 3, 2014)

myhui said:


> I know you all can tell the quality of the hubs when you're playing with them while you're off the bike.
> 
> But how do you feel the hub's quality when you're riding?


Quality hubs don't call attention to themselves by themselves, but do have big effects on how the whole wheel rides. First and foremost, hubs are extremely important in determining the stiffness of a wheel, as they are the main thing which set spoke bracing angles. Those angles are the most significant factor in determining its ability to resist flexing from side to side. 

Bearing rolling resistance by itself is something which does make a measurable difference, but like stiffness, it's something which can't really be discerned by itself, rather as an improvement to the complete wheel. It is not quite as big a deal as, say, aerodynamics, but it is there.

There's definitely more going on than just being shiny spoke-to-frame interfaces .

As far as the carbon bit on the Dura-Ace C24, it's there as a nipple bed reinforcement to enable them to run higher spoke tensions without the nipple and its little threaded plate ripping out. Really low spoke-count wheels rely on high tension as one means of maintaining durability.


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## metalheart (Sep 3, 2010)

I was recently talking with a friend (6'3" ~230 pounds) who is intent on buying the Dura Ace C24s because he would like to try a lighter whilst. Out of curiosity I did some searching about 90+kg riders and these wheels and there are mixed messages. It is not hard to find comments from 90+ kg riders who use these wheels and report no issues. It is also not hard to find comments from wheel-builders and others who suggest that any rider over 180 pounds will flex these wheels too much. I also found some comments about lateral stiffness that suggest one way to think about lateral stiffness and heavier riders:

Basically, only heavy riders, or racers looking for extreme performance need stiffness at all cost. Over 80kg, the racer should focus on wheels over 40N/mm of lateral stiffness.
Between 70-80kg, wheels under 35N/mm are likely to impair performance in some race situations. And finally, racers between 60 and 70kg would be best avoiding wheels with lateral stiffness
below 30N/mm.

Great wheel test ? Part 3 ? Stiffness | Roues Artisanales

I think the C24's have more than 40NM of lateral stiffness based on comments here and there.

My comments to my friend are that the 3 year warranty with the Dura Ace wheels should give him some peace of mind that if his weight results in loose spokes or cracked rims, then Shimano will take care of it, but..... I guess if he uses these for some but not all rides, they might be ok?


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## HermesSport (Oct 3, 2014)

The C24s are really quite strong. They should be able to handle your friend, even if they're daily riding wheels.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

metalheart said:


> I was recently talking with a friend (6'3" ~230 pounds) who is intent on buying the Dura Ace C24s..... I guess if he uses these for some but not all rides, they might be ok?


If he is a strong rider, then I believe it's a bad idea. There is a local guy (220lb) who destroys his Shimano wheels at least once per year (cracked rim usually), and he gets a replacement, but it is still a big hassle. He doesn't even ride that much. There is another guy who weighs the same but he isn't very strong and is gentle on equipment. He can ride pretty much anything and be fine. So it depends.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

My experience with Dura Ace wheels includes three broken spokes: one front, one drive side, and one non-drive side. 

Try buying those spokes one at a time and shimano will sell you a five-pack. They are not cheap.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

I broke a spoke on my C50 rear wheel and my choices were either send it in for warranty repair & be without it doe 2-3 weeks or my LBS said $40 for replace the spoke and retention the wheel, so I did that. They gave me back the wheel with 4 extra spokes and nipples, but I think they charged my $10 for the parts


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

I think a lot of people are shocked at the prices of spokes for Shimano wheels because they must have never bought an Aerolite or CXRay spoke before. Those are $3-4 each too.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

nhluhr said:


> I think a lot of people are shocked at the prices of spokes for Shimano wheels because they must have never bought an Aerolite or CXRay spoke before. Those are $3-4 each too.


CX-Rays at Brandon's BHS - $2.80 and $2.95 and he'll sell you just one spoke if that's your wish.

Sapim CX-Ray


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> CX-Rays at Brandon's BHS - $2.80 and $2.95 and he'll sell you just one spoke if that's your wish.
> 
> Sapim CX-Ray


Which if my math is correct is more than the cost per spoke described by Mr645 above. He said he got a set of 5 for $10.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

nhluhr said:


> Which if my math is correct is more than the cost per spoke described by Mr645 above. He said he got a set of 5 for $10.


I'll let others, with the personal hindsight of buying or selling DA spokes, to verify his statement.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> CX-Rays at Brandon's BHS - $2.80 and $2.95 and he'll sell you just one spoke if that's your wish.
> 
> Sapim CX-Ray


I believe the C-24 uses straight pulls - a few pennies more.


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> I'll let others, with the personal hindsight of buying or selling DA spokes, to verify his statement.


Some of them cost more, sure, for example the rear spokes for the C50-CL are currently listed at Shimano USA for an MSRP of $3.99 each. Still, they are all just normal spokes until you're talking the ones specifically for Tubeless rims, which have the "plug" and "washer" as part of the spoke unit and also require a hub-nut instead of just a more normal style nipple that threads onto a spoke at the rim. As for the spoke itself on the non-tubeless wheels, the front spokes are the same as DT Aerolite straightpull and the rear spokes are the same as DT Aero Comp straight-pull. The lengths are shown clearly in the exploded-view diagrams at si.shimano.com for each wheel.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

I have loved my C35's that I got the end of last year, until I started running into truing issues with them. Over the 500 miles I had on the wheels I had to have them trued 5 times.

Finally I took the wheel into the LBS and said something is up, for a hand built wheel this is crazy. I am not a pro rider, just an enthusiast who likes to get out and enjoy a ride.

We took the offending rear wheel, measured non drive and drive side tension. Non drive side was in the 5-8 range on the Park tension gauge, the drive side was 11-15. Specs called for 17-18 for non drive side and 21-24 for the drive side on the Park tool.

Neither the mechanic nor myself could believe the wheel lost that much tension over 500 miles. That would have required several turns of the nipples to lose that much tension.

Shimano had the LBS retension the wheels instead of sending them in, so far after 100ish miles they seem good. Had to retrue them slightly after the retension job but they are good so far.

Hopefully that is the end of my Shimano DA wheel issues, I came out of a custom built set of Reynolds Assaults with DT240 hubs that we could never get the rear wheel to hold true. I did a lot of research before I pulled the trigger on the DA wheels to make sure this kind of issue didn't come up again.


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