# How hard is it to roll a tubular?



## mlin (Aug 5, 2008)

In followup to my other thread about tubulars, I did purchase a set of Zipp 303's which I glued with no issues.

I did notice that inflating the tires (for stretching purposes) on a new set of wheels with no glue seems pretty tight.

Do you really need to be hammering crits and rounding corners at 25mph to roll them off or would just a standard group ride of 18mph roll them off?

I read on another site that a pro rode a whole fondo before finding out that the front tire was not glued at all.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

You're worried about a tubular rolling off? Do you plan on glueing it on with this?


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

you have a set of zipp 303 tubulars, but are afraid they will roll off at 25mph in a crit?! Better be safe than sorry and give them to me, I got a set of clinchers that will hold up to 50 mph -twice as good and you won't have to hold everyone up in the corners while you keep it below 25.


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## martinot (Aug 14, 2009)

If the tire is not glued properly you will roll it off sooner or later. If it's glued properly - no worries. The most often seen, by me, glue job issue was a not 'soaked' enough base tape of tubular tire.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

how long is a piece of string?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

What you are really asking is how hard is it to f up glueing a tubular. It's pretty easy for some and nearly impossible for people who know what they are doing and take care.


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## kevhogaz (Jul 28, 2007)

On the first set of tubulars I glued up, I used to worry all the time about rolling a tire. I read everything I could on gluing, then settled on the two layers of glue on the rim, one layer on the tire method. I always aired up 'em up, and let 'em sit before I rode on 'em.

Now, in the realm of all things cycling, I'm whats considered a Clydesdale, or in more common terms, I'm fat.

On my pre-work 20+ mile summer training route, there's a very high speed corner. You can take the corner very easily, at over 30 mph with out even trying. It's a left hander, bottom of a hill, with a drop slightly after the apex. In other words, it's a high "G" situation.

I've never rolled a tubular tire, and if I did, I would expect it too be in that corner. I also used to road race motorcycles, and figure I'm putting some serious lateral forces on my tires.

So, glue 'em up right, and they'll probably never come off. Do it wrong, and you're probably coming off!!


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Usually rolling a tubular involves a poor gluing job, old glue job, old tire where the base tape peeled away, low pressure (slow leak), or a hot rim on a long descent. Most of those factors can be controlled by the rider. You also don't see a lot of flats on a criterium course, so take care of the wheels and tires and you're likely to never roll a tubular. 

I've seen tubulars roll, a guy in a crit rolled his front tire coming out of a corner and it wedged in his fork and slammed him face first into the pavement.


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## Warpdatframe (Dec 9, 2012)

The only tubular I've seen roll off was by one of my team mates In a cross race. He glued it 20 minutes before the race and had to run the last 500m because it totally came off.


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## mlin (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm asking how hard it is to roll the tire with no glue on the rim at all, because when I inflate it for stretching purposes, it seems stuck on pretty good.

Asking if there is a threshold, like 17mph around a corner...


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

mlin said:


> I'm asking,
> 
> Asking if there is a threshold, like 17mph around a corner...


Asking for a trip to the ER. Try it. Your dentist will thank you.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

mlin said:


> I'm asking how hard it is to roll the tire with no glue on the rim at all, because when I inflate it for stretching purposes, it seems stuck on pretty good.
> 
> Asking if there is a threshold, like 17mph around a corner...


Why do you think we would know? Why are you asking such a stupid question? Are you actually thinking you might try and NOT glue the tires on? If so, you're not very smart.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

kevhogaz said:


> On the first set of tubulars I glued up, I used to worry all the time about rolling a tire. I read everything I could on gluing, then settled on the two layers of glue on the rim, one layer on the tire method. I always aired up 'em up, and let 'em sit before I rode on 'em.
> 
> Now, in the realm of all things cycling, I'm whats considered a Clydesdale, or in more common terms, I'm fat.
> 
> ...


unsolicited opinion: i've glued over 1000 tires over the last 20 years and i think 1 coat on the tire is not enough. especially if you have un-coated base tape. 2 coats minimum.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

mlin said:


> I'm asking how hard it is to roll the tire with no glue on the rim at all.
> 
> Asking if there is a threshold, like 17mph around a corner...


How many times can you hit yourself in the head with a hammer until you die? Don't know? And nobody knows the answer to your your question either, because nobody is dumb enough to have tried it. 
And why do you need this information anyway?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mlin said:


> I'm asking how hard it is to roll the tire with no glue on the rim at all, because when I inflate it for stretching purposes, it seems stuck on pretty good.
> 
> Asking if there is a threshold, like 17mph around a corner...


***caution*** posts like this will create irreparable damage to your reputation


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

mlin said:


> I'm asking how hard it is to roll the tire with no glue on the rim at all, because when I inflate it for stretching purposes, it seems stuck on pretty good.
> 
> Asking if there is a threshold, like 17mph around a corner...


I recently purchased a set of HED stinger 6's and was struck by how deep and wide the tire bed is in comparison to standard tubulars I've had in the past. The entire base tape of a 23mm tire is swallowed up by the tire bed. I'd bet it wouldn't roll even without tape since there's so much surface area contact between rim and tire (not that I'd try it). Would be a nice wheel for cross. Haven't seen the newer 303.


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## Warpdatframe (Dec 9, 2012)

Yeah I've tried a set and they're amazing. I'd still probably go with 303s for cross because of how feathery they are.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

mlin said:


> I'm asking how hard it is to roll the tire with no glue on the rim at all, because when I inflate it for stretching purposes, it seems stuck on pretty good.
> 
> Asking if there is a threshold, like 17mph around a corner...


Certainly not something to try experimentally without lots of protective gear, but as an academic question, you'd need to know the radius of the corner as well as the speed, as it's the centripetal acceleration that is operative ( = (V^2)/R ). 

In my experience, the large majority of typical road cyclists don't lean as much as they could when cornering and so don't go through corners as fast as possible. These guys would be much less likely to roll a tire compared to a pro who's a good descender.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I went to clinchers in the year 2000, but I never rolled a single tubular in 28 years of riding tubulars before that. I didn't perform any black magic in mounting or gluing the tires, either. I just followed the instructions on the tube of glue. The only times I came even close to having a loose tire was when, because a particular tire was so reliable, I rode them for so long, the tiremaker's glue between the base layer and the tire carcass would dry out. And yes, we called them sew-ups back then.


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## mlin (Aug 5, 2008)

Its odd how there is no info on this. I mean, mavic performs tests to prove that one red spoke in a wheel leads to less resistance. 

Maybe need to contact mythbusters


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mlin said:


> Its odd how there is no info on this. I mean, mavic performs tests to prove that one red spoke in a wheel leads to less resistance.
> 
> Maybe need to contact mythbusters


seriously...you think it's odd that no testing has been done to determine how fast you can go around a corner w/ an unglued tubular? please tell me you're just messing around w/ this. 

please.


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## kevhogaz (Jul 28, 2007)

cxwrench said:


> unsolicited opinion: i've glued over 1000 tires over the last 20 years and i think 1 coat on the tire is not enough. especially if you have un-coated base tape. 2 coats minimum.


Opinion appreciated!! I've only glued around 10 sets, so I welcome any advice I can get. I will now modify my gluing routine, to a 2/2 method!!


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## kevhogaz (Jul 28, 2007)

mlin said:


> I'm asking how hard it is to roll the tire with no glue on the rim at all, because when I inflate it for stretching purposes, it seems stuck on pretty good.
> 
> Asking if there is a threshold, like 17mph around a corner...


If you live near me, come over and we'll find out. I'll supply the bike, the tire, and the rim. You bring your insurance card, a release form, and how I notify your next of kin, you've been in a serious accident!


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

@ kevhogaz 3 coats on rim. 2 on tire.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

An even more interesting question is how fast you can descend with the stem bolts loose + no ahead cap+ unglued sew ups + wood rims + cork pads + aluminum brake mounting bolts.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

terzo rene said:


> An even more interesting question is how fast you can descend with the stem bolts loose + no ahead cap+ unglued sew ups + wood rims + cork pads + aluminum brake mounting bolts.


and disconnected brakes.........


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

terzo rene said:


> An even more interesting question is how fast you can descend with the stem bolts loose + no ahead cap+ unglued sew ups + wood rims + cork pads + aluminum brake mounting bolts.


And don't forget riding at high speed on the cobbles with a drilled-out seat post. The possibilities are endless!


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## kevhogaz (Jul 28, 2007)

T K said:


> @ kevhogaz 3 coats on rim. 2 on tire.


Got it, thanks!! I think, I may have been using three on the rim, but I honestly don't remember. Getting old sucks!!


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## cua90 (Sep 18, 2009)

Is there any experimental evidence on tire to rim bond strength? I recall some articles coming out of the University of Kansas some time ago, was bond strength tested in those?


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## tmf (Mar 7, 2012)

Kerry Irons said:


> And don't forget riding at high speed on the cobbles with a drilled-out seat post. The possibilities are endless!


Just for fun I'm going to loosen all of my spokes until just one thread is left in the nipples. I guess I'll have to take my brakes off, too, to prevent the rims from rubbing. I'll report back how it goes...


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## camping biker (Dec 22, 2011)

This thread is funny. I think there is something made just for you. TUFOS. They are tubular tires, that snap into clincher rims. No I'm not making this up. TUFO C S33 PRO - Tubular clinchers TRAINING

Tubular-Clincher Tires Cycling Products - BikeTiresDirect


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

camping biker said:


> This thread is funny. I think there is something made just for you. TUFOS. They are tubular tires, that snap into clincher rims. No I'm not making this up. TUFO C S33 PRO - Tubular clinchers TRAINING
> 
> Tubular-Clincher Tires Cycling Products - BikeTiresDirect


you're right, this could be the only time ever that these things would make sense! good job:thumbsup:
i'd never recommend them to a 'normal', non-crash-test type rider, but i'm sure the OP could handle them.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

"How hard is it to roll a tubular? "

Pretty hard, unless you get a pedal strike in a turn on the bell lap. Ever since then, I glue them up so good, I hurt my thumbs, getting them off. 

(the reason I mention about the "bell lap" is because that's when your brain does funny things, by telling you that you really need that extra speed from one more pedal stroke)
.
.


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## camping biker (Dec 22, 2011)

Don't play around. The whole idea of gluing a tire to hold it to a rim seems crazy to me, but I get it why they sell. It's hip to use old technology, and at least for track bikes, there may be something to them for speed and very high pressure. 











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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

On a new rim I'd put two coats on the rim and two on the tire. After that one on the rim and two on the tire. Ya gotta cover the whole base tape. Let dry for a hour and put it on, then inflate hard at least overnight (not 20 minutes before race time). It's not that complex. 

I always have a new Conti on my stretching rim ready to glue on. Never rolled a tire.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

camping biker said:


> Don't play around. The whole idea of gluing a tire to hold it to a rim seems crazy to me, but I get it why they sell. It's hip to use old technology, and at least for track bikes, there may be something to them for speed and very high pressure.


Old tech does not equate to bad tech, there is nothing inherently great about a clincher rim. Countless highly critical items are used daily in the world and they are assembled with glues, in the end it comes down to process and controls. I've punctured tires, swapped with a spare sew up on training rides and comfortably road home, repaired sew ups in the field on a bad day as well and rode home.

As others have mentioned, why bother with the question to begin with?


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## camping biker (Dec 22, 2011)

A lot of old technology is great, and yes, some adhesives are quite strong. 

I bothered with the question because I am amazed that someone would think of putting a sew up on a rim without glue, and figured it must be posted as a prank, so I expected to be entertained. 

There is something inherently great about a clincher rim! I can change tires any day I like, with my bare hands, and don't have to bother with glues, tapes, "stretching", etc. The tires effortlessly line up nicely with no wobbles. Tires are widely available and economical. Tubes are easy to carry in compact storage and easy to change without sewing needles, glue, etc. hahahhahahhahahahha


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

camping biker said:


> A lot of old technology is great, and yes, some adhesives are quite strong.
> 
> I bothered with the question because I am amazed that someone would think of putting a sew up on a rim without glue, and figured it must be posted as a prank, so I expected to be entertained.
> 
> There is something inherently great about a clincher rim! I can change tires any day I like, with my bare hands, and don't have to bother with glues, tapes, "stretching", etc. The tires effortlessly line up nicely with no wobbles. Tires are widely available and economical. Tubes are easy to carry in compact storage and easy to change without sewing needles, glue, etc. hahahhahahhahahahha


I agree, it's a foolish question.

In regards to sew ups, I can change them with my bare hands as well all day long, I carry a ready to go spare on the bike (tied with a shoestring under the saddle). The only extra step is applying some glue in the shop and letting it dry, not an overly long process. 
Maybe I'll build up a set of wheels with clinchers and give them a shot again. When I changed from clinchers to sewups (80's) it was a great improvement, no need for the tire irons or cussing a pinched tube.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Try getting around to the wheel pit for a free lap with a clincher tire that came off the rim, after a flat.
.
.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Try getting around to the wheel pit for a free lap with a clincher tire that came off the rim, after a flat.
> .
> .


^ this, for sure ^ those are the guys/girls you see attempting to run down the course w/ their bike over their shoulder and a tire & tube trying to trip them the whole way.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

kevhogaz said:


> If you live near me, come over and we'll find out. I'll supply the bike, the tire, and the rim. You bring your insurance card, a release form, and how I notify your next of kin, you've been in a serious accident!


It might also make a good segment to submit to "America's Funniest Home Videos" ... or maybe "Jack Ass 5". 
The "victims" are always doing astonishingly stupid things on those videos.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

cua90 said:


> Is there any experimental evidence on tire to rim bond strength? I recall some articles coming out of the University of Kansas some time ago, was bond strength tested in those?


Yes, there was a series of lab tests & publications during the late 1990s - early 2000s, by a Prof. Colin Howat and Calvin Jones (of Park Tool).

The very best adhesives were the tubular tire-specific glues by Vittoria and Continental. Vittoria had the edge. Adhesion to carbon rims was always significantly less than metal rims, around 40% less IIRC.

For that reason, for road use I prefer the conservative gluing approach recommended by Zipp and some others: 

-- _lightly _scuff new carbon rim w/ #120-150 sandpaper and thorughly clean with acetone.
-- 2 full coats glue on tubular base tape, drying after each coat.
-- 2 full coats on carbon rim, drying after each coat.
-- final 3rd glue coat on rim, immediately mount tire, true tire, & inflate tire to normal pressure. Wait minimum 12 hrs before riding.

For cyclocross use, some people go to more extreme lengths, eg glue + "belgian tapes", but I dont know anything about that. Lennard Zinn has written about this at velonews.com.
Tape alone seems foolhardy, for any use, and was relatively weak in Howat's lab testing.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tom_h said:


> Yes, there was a series of lab tests & publications during the late 1990s - early 2000s, by a Prof. Colin Howat and Calvin Jones (of Park Tool).
> 
> The very best adhesives were the tubular tire-specific glues by Vittoria and Continental. Vittoria had the edge. Adhesion to carbon rims was always significantly less than metal rims, around 40% less IIRC.
> 
> ...


^ this, exactly. absolutely the right way to do it. ^


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## camping biker (Dec 22, 2011)

I'd say clincher tires and wheels have come a long way since the 1980s.


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## Alex_C (Aug 21, 2006)

Bell lap this past weekend. Three turns to go, running 4th, 27mph through the turn and whammo I'm on the ground. Sat up staring at 8"-10" of separated Vittoria Open Pro from my rim. F$&%#!!!

Shop glued, but I don't think it was a gluing issue. Base tape looked like 6" of it separated. 

Seriously reconsidering using just clinchers...


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

After you're done gluing and curing, test the bike by leaning it and pressing against the ground to "simulate" cornering forces. The tires should say stuck. 

Also, you can turn the bike upside down and pull on the tire with your bare hands. If the tire comes off easily it was done improperly, if it doesn't no problemo.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

CleavesF said:


> After you're done gluing and curing, test the bike by leaning it and pressing against the ground to "simulate" cornering forces. The tires should say stuck.
> 
> Also, you can turn the bike upside down and pull on the tire with your bare hands. If the tire comes off easily it was done improperly, if it doesn't no problemo.


What you're looking for is a good bond at the edge of the rim. This is done by _pushing_ the tire, as if you were trying to roll it off the rim. Which is easily done w/ the wheels out of the frame & fork. One thing you'll never see a pro mechanic do is turn a bike upside down to work on it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

flatting on a 50 mph descent on a clincher is still the same story though - loss of braking power, loss of control due to rim on pavement. With a tubular there's a better chance of being able to stop under control. 



camping biker said:


> I'd say clincher tires and wheels have come a long way since the 1980s.


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