# TOC A Grand Tour?



## ganginwood (Dec 4, 2006)

Did I hear Phil Ligget correctly? I could've sworn during stage 2 of the TOC Phil said that it had become one of the top 2 Grand Tours in the world. I guess they'll pay anyone off these days.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Haaa Phil! 

It's not even a Grand Tour... And even the Vuelta is more exciting!

Comparing to other short stage races like Romandie, Paris-Nice, it's still sub-par. It may be one of the top 2 stage races in the US though... or one of the top 2 group training rides.


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## Allez Rouge (Jan 1, 1970)

He did indeed say something like that. I didn't catch that he said it was one of the "Top 2," but perhaps he did.

I took him as trying to say that the ToC has established itself as a successful and well-respected race, but allowed his Hype Dispenser to slip into overdrive while his brain was still idling ... something for which dear old Phil has become rather famous. Even so, there's still no one I'd rather have calling a race than Phil and Paul.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

ToC is so overrated its ridiculous. Questionable route, terrible weather year in and out, on and on.

The ONLY reason its given any time of day is $$$$$ thats pumped into it by the State and that its run by the old Tour Du Pont guys who have a lot of connections.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

RkFast said:


> ToC is so overrated its ridiculous. Questionable route, terrible weather year in and out, on and on.
> 
> The ONLY reason its given any time of day is $$$$$ thats pumped into it by the State and that its run by the old Tour Du Pont guys who have a lot of connections.


Yes lets hope it dies soon so we can all get back to concentrating parking lot crits and forget any growth of cycing in the US.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

I'm thinking the "world" that Liggett refers to includes ...... "states in the US that touch both Mexico and the Pacific Ocean"...


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## Lagavulin12 (Sep 3, 2009)

He did not call it a grand tour. He said that many people on the protour rank it just behind the top 2 grand tours, France & Giro, and ahead of the Vuelta.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> Yes lets hope it dies soon so we can all get back to concentrating parking lot crits and forget any growth of cycing in the US.


Yeah..becuase shitty racing in the rain and snow with a sideline full of drunk *******s with day glo wigs and speedos is really helping "grow" cycling in the US.


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## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

at one point I recall him saying (or being told by NBC to say) it was the 4th most important race of the year. clearly their headsets are being pumped with this type of thing with the idea that if an american is following the toc, they are almost certainly doing so by watching VS, and that since much of the rest of the cycling world is following the Giro right now anyway, why not try to fuel the ember. its transparent to those who follow pro cycling, even casually, but as stated prior, it probably helps garner interest in the US. sad but maybe needed.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

RkFast said:


> Yeah..becuase shitty racing in the rain and snow with a sideline full of drunk *******s with day glo wigs and speedos is really helping "grow" cycling in the US.


any televised cycling helps "grow" cycling. sorry you hate the TOC so much. I'm not the biggest fan of it and its hype, but i'm sure as hell not going to ***** that it's happening and being broadcast live!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

RkFast said:


> Yeah..becuase shitty racing in the rain and snow with a sideline full of drunk *******s with day glo wigs and speedos is really helping "grow" cycling in the US.


works fine in Belgium.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

I would put it on the same level with the other European stage races that are about the same length.

TOC is a work in progress. AEG runs it and everything they run seems to become really successful. The US needs three races like this every year.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

RkFast said:


> Yeah..becuase shitty racing in the rain and snow with a sideline full of drunk *******s with day glo wigs and speedos is really helping "grow" cycling in the US.


You just described any race in Belgium. At Flanders there was a guy near me wearing a bear costume and drunk as hell. I am pretty sure racing there is legit. Maybe you argument is bad.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

It isnt even long enough to have a rest day. That says volumes.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

RkFast said:


> Yeah..becuase shitty racing in the rain and snow with a sideline full of drunk *******s with day glo wigs and speedos is really helping "grow" cycling in the US.


Yep you captured the sum and total of the entire event.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

wiz525 said:


> any televised cycling helps "grow" cycling. sorry you hate the TOC so much. I'm not the biggest fan of it and its hype, but i'm sure as hell not going to ***** that it's happening and being broadcast live!



This I agree with its not the bext race out there at the moment but it has grown and improved or tried to each year. Its located in one of the few states that offer enough support and courses to support a longer stage race.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

@Legavulin12 - I believe you are correct.

I would like to see the Tour of Californis develop into a true Grand Tour ons day, but have to agree with others that it is more of a training camp for those who see the Tour de France as thier ultimate personal or team goal.

Drunk fans in Bear suits - sounds like a Chicago Bears game! 

But seriously, one of the great things about bike racing is that it allows the fans to get so close to thier heros - which also means that drunk, stupid, ill-advised etc. fans will make an appearance at times - scary on a certain level, but I think one of the reasons the tifosi became so fanatical - they can actually meet, talk to etc. the sportspeople they follow. The fans feel more a part of the show than just passive observers.

BTW - I actually find those crazy fans entertaining, as long as they don't get in the way of the riders (and keep thier dogs leashed!).


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

Just take it for what it is. A chance to see some of the best riders in the world and a lot of local talent compete against some Euro pros, on a course that you might be able to ride on another occasion.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

dougydee said:


> Just take it for what it is. A chance to see some of the best riders in the world and a lot of local talent compete against some Euro pros, on a course that you might be able to ride on another occasion.


Pretty much. I see no reason to hate on the ToC. Given that the Tour of GA and MO have stopped entirely, how can anyone complain? If I didn't have racing/training of my own, I'd consider catching some stages.  I consider myself lucky to have been able to attend the last stage of the Tour of MO and be surrounded by top riders.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> I know alot of the Euro bike companies and the US ones want it to grow and the other races to grow as the US represents a huge market for them.


Given the non-cycling population in the US, I have no doubt that there's a huge amount of growth potential. I doubt the numbers and riders will live up to that potential, but one can always hope.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

LostViking said:


> @Legavulin12 - I believe you are correct.
> 
> I would like to see the Tour of Californis develop into a true Grand Tour ons day, but have to agree with others that it is more of a training camp for those who see the Tour de France as thier ultimate personal or team goal.


And this is how alot of races started, the Vaulta was a 2 week race early in the year when it started it was taken that seriously and was used as training (its still used as training by guys going to worlds). In fact most non grand tours have at least some of the main GC guys riding them as training. ToC has a few guys taht take it seriously and a few more here for training and sponsors if the US is luckly it will continue to gain momentum and grow into a more prestigous race. 

I know alot of the Euro bike companies and the US ones want it to grow and the other races to grow as the US represents a huge market for them.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

kmunny19 said:


> at one point I recall him saying (or being told by NBC to say) it was the 4th most important race of the year.


That is almost the quote I heard. It was more like "Some people say" (anyone, like NBC marketers) "that it is becoming" (not "it is") "the 4th most important race" (which it is clearly not).

But I am giving Phil and Paul and NBC a waiver on this hyperbole. Sports coverage in the USA is so dominated by the trilogy of baseball, basketball, and american football that even truly world-sports, like the other football, can't get much coverage.

Let's be glad that le Tour has grown in USA awareness to the extent that it gets a couple of column inches per day in mini-major newspapers like the Charlotte Observer (currently celebrating 4 Pulitzer Prizes in 125 years, _whoo-hoo!_). 

(For out-of-towners, the paper is published Charlotte, North Carolina, one of NC's larger towns. NC is located in the Southeast USA. You can probably find the city on a map using Google. But make sure that you don't restrict your search to a city population size greater than 1 million or include a lot of recreation/entertainment requirements or a winning pro football or basketball team. But if you live in NC then you already know that.)


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

ToC is a paid holiday for most


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

rubbersoul said:


> ToC is a paid holiday for most


not so much - have a look at the power files Hunter Allen posted from last year...


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> Yep you captured the sum and total of the entire event.


The event was a washout the last two years and the first two stages of this years event were curtailed due to the weather. Fact. 

And IMO it feels contrived and corporate. 

As far as the fans go, what happens overseas feels original. What goes on in the states feels like a bad copy with the yahoos in CA not passionate about the race....but motivated for camera time of their own. Theres no charm....there's American schlock. These "fans" are no different than the nitwits who attend big horse race events, claim they are "lifelong fans"...yet are face down in the gutter before the third race goes off. 

These are my own observations and opinions. Youre more than welcome to draw up your own.

And where is it written that I have to "like" every single race?


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

RkFast said:


> The event was a washout the last two years and the first two stages of this years event were curtailed due to the weather. Fact.
> 
> And IMO it feels contrived and corporate.
> 
> ...



Ska douche


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> Pretty much. I see no reason to hate on the ToC. Given that the Tour of GA and MO have stopped entirely, how can anyone complain? If I didn't have racing/training of my own, I'd consider catching some stages. I consider myself lucky to have been able to attend the last stage of the Tour of MO and be surrounded by top riders.


I don't get the complaints either. It's a great one-week event. Similar to Tour of Romandie, Tour de Suisse etc. Top caliber, world-class racers. Best US talent. Phinney, Talansky, Van Garderen, Ben King - a lot of optimism for young US superstars. Yet Debbie Downers out there find a way to whine no matter what.


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## johnny dollar (Jul 21, 2010)

I thought Phil said it was one of the top 4 without specifying being ahead or behind the Vuelta. Though, I agree, a grand tour should have more stages. 

I'd like to see the ToC go through the Kings Range and the Lost Coast, love to see a stage go from Shelter Cove to Eureka or Arcata.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

LostViking said:


> @Legavulin12 - I believe you are correct.
> 
> I would like to see the Tour of Californis develop into a true Grand Tour ons day, but have to agree with others that it is more of a training camp for those who see the Tour de France as thier ultimate personal or team goal.
> 
> ...


Sorry, it was cross worlds where the bears were, not Flanders. I forgot about the ostriches too. The Belgians are nuts at bike races.


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## ganginwood (Dec 4, 2006)

Its not that I don't want to see the TOC do well. Its great for what it is and we need it as a launching pad for US cycling. I just was a bit surprised to hear Phil say
1. Grand Tour
2. One of the top 2

Lets face it....the Giro is the hardest race of the year. The Tour is the biggest race of the year. You can't do A if you want to win B.....so the TOC makes perfect sense for those wanting to win B.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

Not directed at ganginwood. He made it clear, not complaining about ToC, but the comments made by the broadcast. Well, they are just trying to pump up the race, and I think most of us agree that its a crazy statement.

As for the people pissing about the race, simple solution is don't watch. And if you don't watch, don't troll. It is a very corporate, training race for TdF contenders, and a competetive race for the next level down (Levi, Rogers last year, etc.). If you can't deal with that, then don't watch. If the corporate side helps it grow, and gets more races in this country televised, more power to it. Its not like we can make an instant "classic" race here enriched in tradition.


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## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

I agree with the sentiment that this is a good race for the US to have, and I like seeing the goofballs come out in force, even if it does lack the authentic feel it would have in Europe. I think the US needs to have more people who don't tkae themselves as seriously as we seem to, and that's a good way to do it. My point was really just one of realism that NBC was making exaggerated claims to excite US viewers, and I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. I'd like to hear them talk even more about ways that the race is growing and improving, and ways to make it do so even more. and for them to display the fun fans and compare that aspect with how it is in Europe. I'd love to hear PL say of some dressed up goon, "Now there's a proper cycling fan. Why he'd be right at home on the slopes of X historic euro climb, just as much as he is here on Mt Baldy!"


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

RkFast said:


> The event was a washout the last two years and the first two stages of this years event were curtailed due to the weather. Fact.
> 
> And IMO it feels contrived and corporate.
> 
> ...


You don't have to like but as a person that has been to 4 of the last 6 I think your talking out your ass to some degree as far as the organization and the support of the race. Case in point they managed to pull together a stage start in 4 hours the opther day that clearly shows more support of the sport that you are trying assert. 

I do wonder, however, how you would go about starting up a race? I mean you clearly aginst starting small and building it. Also apprently we are not suppose to use European racing as a template because then it will seem copy catish (tho you do know that road racing was a historicly American sport, right?). So I assume I assume you have some great idea of how it shouls work, or are you just one of those people that is just down on things but with no idea of how to improve it at all.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

At least the hyperbole from last year where posters were adamant that the ATOC was superseding the Giro are largely absent this year. A year wiser I guess!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

rubbersoul said:


> At least the hyperbole from last year where posters were adamant that the ATOC was superseding the Giro are largely absent this year. A year wiser I guess!


With the epic routes of the Giro the last two years, and the utterly amazing war for pink last year, anyone who claimed the ToC would best the Giro would be instantly labeled "insane."


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

paul and phil also bang on about the tour down under being one of the best races of the year when they are doing the broadcast

if they were being paid to broadcast your local cat 3 crit on a tuesday evening, it would suddenly become one of the best races of the year with a great atmosphere not found anywhere else and an event that all the racers love going to


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Horner wins today. I rest my case.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

RkFast said:


> Horner wins today. I rest my case.


How is this bad?

The guy who wins ToBasque and places 2nd this year? He's got grit...too bad he was always relegated to riding support for other riders. Let him run free and he's solid.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

alexb618 said:


> paul and phil also bang on about the tour down under being one of the best races of the year when they are doing the broadcast
> 
> if they were being paid to broadcast your local cat 3 crit on a tuesday evening, it would suddenly become one of the best races of the year with a great atmosphere not found anywhere else and an event that all the racers love going to


I totally agree with this. Promote what your being paid to broadcast. It would be good to here Paul and Phil broadcast the Giro!


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

RkFast said:


> Horner wins today. I rest my case.



Seriously that's you argument? A world class rider who has won races in Europe (and finished top 10 at the tour) and is considered a solid GC guy for shorter races wins and that's you argument that the TOC some how sucks? Wow! you really don't have much of an idea what you talking about.


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

spookyload said:


> Sorry, it was cross worlds where the bears were, not Flanders. I forgot about the ostriches too. The Belgians are nuts at bike races.


I guess this answers the question: Does a bear wiz in the woods?


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## BassNBrew (Aug 4, 2008)

RkFast said:


> Horner wins today. I rest my case.


What case is that...the field at the ATOC is better than the Giro?


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## rollinrob (Dec 8, 2002)

Weren't people saying just a couple of years ago that they were going to use the Giro as a training race for the TDF. In fact I remember Jan Ulrich and Cadel Evans stating that they were doing so. Lance Armstrong did it to get ready for the tour in 2009. Just because they are using the TOC for training does not mean that there is not good racing. Just look at Horner yesterday. Blowing up the field for the win.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

RkFast said:


> Horner wins today. I rest my case.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! this reply rests my case.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Wow, I can't believe that someone would demean the quality of a race because Chris Horner won a stage in it. That guy is amazing: top 10 TDF finisher, Tour of the Basque Country (which I guess must be a piddly little corporate race too) win and lots of good results lately. I'll never forget him picking up a crashed rider from another team and carrying him to the finish line on his bike. That sort of comment insults all of the races he has been doing well in and it insults Chris, who is becoming one of the most exciting riders to watch these days. He's strong and aggressive, has one of the classiest personalities in the peloton, and wins races. Is it because he's American? Is it because he's "old?" The Euro-purists might not like this but I think he is the American version of Jens (except I'm not sure that Jens has ever finished as well in a GT).


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

thechriswebb said:



> Wow, I can't believe that someone would demean the quality of a race because Chris Horner won a stage in it. That guy is amazing: top 10 TDF finisher, Tour of the Basque Country (which I guess must be a piddly little corporate race too) win and lots of good results lately. I'll never forget him picking up a crashed rider from another team and carrying him to the finish line on his bike. That sort of comment insults all of the races he has been doing well in and it insults Chris, who is becoming one of the most exciting riders to watch these days. He's strong and aggressive, has one of the classiest personalities in the peloton, and wins races. Is it because he's American? Is it because he's "old?" The Euro-purists might not like this but I think he is the American version of Jens (except I'm not sure that Jens has ever finished as well in a GT).


I think it was a racer with a bad mechanical problem. And you forget that not only did he take the racer, he took the guy's bike with him too! THAT'S wicked.


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