# 11 speed crankset and 10 speed cups



## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

I bought an 11 speed Record group and intended to have a LBS upgrade my current 10 speed Record (2007) bike. However, I'm wondering whether I can do this myself. It seems the most complicated part is replacing the bottom bracket cups. A search on this site didn't really provide me an answer to my question whether I can simply keep the "old" cups in place. Is that possible?

While I'm doing (most of) the maintenance on my bikes myself, I never installed all the components myself -- I exchanged levers, derailleurs, but never a crank (there wasn't any need for it). Is this something that can be done easily? It seems the ultra-torque system makes the replacement simpler (there's no need for a "crank puller" tool, right?)


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

All of the 11 speed cranks use the same cups as far as I know. SR cups typically for SR11, and Record cups for everything else. As far as 10spd goes I have no idea as my old R-10 gruppo was a square taper BB. 

At any rate, removing and installing the cups is super easy. You'll need either of the Park tools for doing so. The same tools are used for Shimano, SRAM or just about any other external cup system. I prefer the tool that you use with a socket or torque wrench. This is Park BBT-19 
http://www.parktool.com/product/bottom-bracket-tool-bbt-19

I don't put anything on the threads of the cups. Just clean out the shell after removing your old cups, then install the new ones. If it's a standard English 68mm shell you'll turn right to remove cups on the drive side, and left on the NDS. 

It'll also help to have the special tool to torque down the hirth joint in the crank spindle. UT-BB110 Campagnolo Crank Bolt tool for Ultra Torque. I think if you have a really long allen wrench you can get to that bolt but that tool is pretty cheap and makes it easy. 

Other than those two tools you should be good to go. Keep in mind Campy is using Torx T-25 fittings in a lot of places these days, so having a p-handle T-25 will make installation of the ergo shifters, brake pads and various other bits a heck of a lot easier (and ditto for adjustments down the road)


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Was Ultra Torque available as early as 2004? If not you will have to replace the bottom bracket with the new Record Ultra Torque cups.
Removing an "integrated" Record BB requires the same tool as removing or installing a Campagnolo cassette.


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

Kristatos said:


> At any rate, removing and installing the cups is super easy.


Unfortunately it isn't. I got the (Park) tool and finally got the
crankset off, but I am unable to remove the cups: I requires more
force than I'm currently willing to apply. This is a Time carbon
bottom bracket, does this require a lot of force or were the cups
not installed properly? The current instructions say to just tighten
them by hand, but it seems earlier instructions said to use a tool
(and hence probably more torque).

So my original question still stands: can I reuse the installed
2007 Record (ultra-torque) cups (for a 10 speed crank) or should
I try harder to get them off and install the 2011 version for the
11 speed crank?


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Got Time said:


> Unfortunately it isn't. I got the (Park) tool and finally got the
> crankset off, but I am unable to remove the cups: I requires more
> force than I'm currently willing to apply. This is a Time carbon
> bottom bracket, does this require a lot of force or were the cups
> ...


I held them side by side when I replaced my 2007 stuff with 11 speed and didn't see any difference other than color. Cups are relatively cheap and if you can get your old ones out, I say replace them. Otherwise it should work fine. 

The changed the installation instructions a few years ago to hand tighten. Your old ones were probably "star torqued" (tighten until you see stars) and have corroded in place. You can try some penetrating oil from both sides and letting it sit overnight before trying to get them out. I have two UT bikes and I installed the cups by cleaning off the factory yellow stuff and using Locktite Blue. Both bikes are steel.


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## Bobbin-Man (Oct 1, 2008)

Got Time said:


> So my original question still stands: can I reuse the installed
> 2007 Record (ultra-torque) cups (for a 10 speed crank) or should
> I try harder to get them off and install the 2011 version for the
> 11 speed crank?


I recently swapped my 2009 10sp Veloce UT for 2011 11sp Chorus UT - I retained the same cups. No issues - they are the same. Note that if they are very tight they may have been fitted with Loctite 222 or similar and therefore unlikely to move without substantial force - not a problem because they're therefore not likely to move with the new c/set fitted :thumbsup:


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Got Time said:


> I requires more
> force than I'm currently willing to apply.


Are you sure you're trying to turn them the right way (left-handed thread on drive side)? If so, you could get yourself a torque wrench, and use that to unscrew the caps. Set it to 40Nm which will be perfectly safe; if they don't budge at that torque, you need a plan B. Keeping your old cups would be perfectly viable then, I think.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

Sorry to hear that. Pirx last post pretty much sums up the options at this point. Sounds from other posts like you should be fine with the older cups in there. If you got the Park BB tool that is socket driven then try the torque wrench if you want to give it one more shot. 

In addition to the cups sometimes folks have used loctite on the bolt in the crank spindle. Was there loctite on the bolt joining the crank spindle? If so it may be that whoever assembled the bike put loctite on the cups too in which case they could be tough to get out of there. 



Got Time said:


> Unfortunately it isn't. I got the (Park) tool and finally got the
> crankset off, but I am unable to remove the cups: I requires more
> force than I'm currently willing to apply. This is a Time carbon
> bottom bracket, does this require a lot of force or were the cups
> ...


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback! I put some WD-40 on them, so I hope I can get them off tonight. Someone suggested to use "Gunk Liquid Wrench". Is that safe to apply on a carbon fiber bottom bracket?

PS: I'm trying to turn the cups counter-clockwise, that should be correct based on what I saw in the Campagnolo video about mounting the cups and cranks. Is that wrong?


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Got Time said:


> I'm trying to turn the cups counter-clockwise, that should be correct based on what I saw in the Campagnolo video about mounting the cups and cranks. Is that wrong?


It's half right, which really means it's wrong: 
The drive-side one is clockwise, on the non-drive side it's counter-clockwise. Another way to look at it is this: If you have your wrench set so that the handle points towards the front of the bicycle, on either side, then the handle needs to be pushed down to loosen the cups.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

Got Time said:


> Thanks for the feedback! I put some WD-40 on them, so I hope I can get them off tonight. Someone suggested to use "Gunk Liquid Wrench". Is that safe to apply on a carbon fiber bottom bracket?
> 
> PS: I'm trying to turn the cups counter-clockwise, that should be correct based on what I saw in the Campagnolo video about mounting the cups and cranks. Is that wrong?


I thought I was pretty clear in my first post which way you need to turn but as was already pointed out you were doing it wrong which may be the whole problem. Before you start spraying gunk in your bb shell maybe try again and turn the cups the correct direction?


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## Bobbin-Man (Oct 1, 2008)

Pirx :thumbsup:


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Bobbin-Man said:


> Er no, other way round! Drive side - clockwise to tighten, counter-clockwise to remove. Non-drive side - counterclockwise to tighten, clockwise to remove. This is the case for English bottom brackets.


You're wrong, see here, for example.


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## Bobbin-Man (Oct 1, 2008)

Maybe I should try this ......... :mad2: :thumbsup:


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

Bobbin-Man said:


> Shall we try again? DS, clockwise to tighten, ie. right hand thread, NDS clockwise to remove, ie. left hand thread. Try this installation video :thumbsup:


You are wrong but at least you are consistent. From the Park Tool website: 
THREADING NOTE: Most modern bikes use an ISO thread standard for the bottom bracket. The left side thread is a right-hand direction thread, which tightens clockwise and removes counter-clockwise. This standard is also called English or BSC. The right side (drive side) thread is a left-hand thread, which tightens counter-clockwise and remove clockwise.

In addition I can verify this as I have removed/installed BSC thread BBs (which is what OP's bike has) including all 3 of my bikes many times. There is also good info on the Sheldon Brown site on this. Go pull your own BB and let us know what you find.


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## Bobbin-Man (Oct 1, 2008)

Yes, I'm having a serious senior moment and getting everything the wrong way round!!!!! Posts edited accordingly!


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

Kristatos said:


> I thought I was pretty clear in my first post which way you need to turn but as was already pointed out you were doing it wrong which may be the whole problem.


Yes, you were. Sorry, I don't know how I missed that :-(

Well, at least I tried to turn the NDS in the right direction, but it never moved. So I decided to keep the old cups (they look almost like new anyway). I installed the new crankset and it turns rather sluggish. But that seems to be normal (I found one video where someone was demonstrating that -- push the crank and it stops after very few rotations)?

I guess I should have gone with my initial idea to have an LBS install the group, but now I'll try to finish it (and be even more careful to check what I have to do). Thanks!


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