# New cassette for easier climbing?



## tenrec (Jul 30, 2009)

I have a 2009 Trek Madone with an Ultegra drivetrain. The crankset is a compact double 50/34, and the rear cassette is 11-25. I rarely use the 11 tooth sprocket because of cross chaining on the small chainring, and because it's too high a gear with the large chainring. I have started riding in some hilly areas and find that I'm having difficulty on some of the steepest climbs, even with the 34/25 combination. I'm considering changing the cassette to a SRAM 11-32 or 12-32. Would my existing rear derailleur handle the new sprockets without modification? Would it be better to go with the 12-32, since I don't use the 11-tooth sprocket with my existing setup? Thanks for any help you can provide.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

You'll need a medium cage derailleur for a 32 or 34t cassette. I believe the limit to your Ultegra is 28t.


----------



## Optimus (Jun 18, 2010)

Don't forget to check the chain as well, you will most likely need a new one.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I vote 12-32. It's not a big difference, but you're likely to get a little more utility out of having a smaller shift somewhere than an 11t cog.

Shimano 9-speed MTB stuff is cross-compatible with their road drivetrains. 10-speed MTB has some differences. So you could stick a 9-speed XT derailleur on and it would work. (Or SLX, Deore, XTR, etc, but XT is fairly equivalent to Ultegra.)

You could also try a 11-28 or 12-28 road cassette, and see if it's enough more low end, or throw the 12-32 on there and see if it works before buying a new derailleur.


----------



## LC (Jan 28, 2004)

My advise would depend on your age. If your young then get the 11-28 or 12-28 and tough it out till you get stronger. If your older then get the 12-32 and 9 speed MTB derailleur.


----------



## fun2none (Mar 16, 2010)

I would recommend trying a 12-27 cassette and see if that works. The 12-27 trades the less used 11T cog for a more useful 16T gear and two extra teeth in the low gear. And a 12-27 does not exceed the "specified" capacity of your rear derailleur.


----------



## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Just an FYI....I'm a 54 yr. old, 145 lb. guy who just started riding last summer. I also had difficulty at the beginning on the hills....hell, I sucked. I'd have to plan my route carefully so that I could return home on the hills that I could get up :blush2:

I thought for sure that I'd switch to a 28t cassette, but I just kept at it and found that as I got in better cardio and physical shape, I could work my way up larger and larger hills. As a novice starting out so poorly, I could see improvement every week. I decided to just HTFU and work on the mental side of hill climbing, which I found very important. You gotta want it on the hills and just push through the pain levels.

Anyway, I stuck with the 11-25 and don't think that I will change. I still struggle up the biggest hills of my area, but use that as a yardstick and motivation for improvement. IMO, try not to take the easy way out, unless you just can't do it.


**


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I'd get a SRAM PG-1070 in 12-27 or 12-28.


----------



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Erion929 said:


> Just an FYI....I'm a 54 yr. old, 145 lb. guy who just started riding last summer. I also had difficulty at the beginning on the hills....hell, I sucked. I'd have to plan my route carefully so that I could return home on the hills that I could get up :blush2:
> 
> I thought for sure that I'd switch to a 28t cassette, but I just kept at it and found that as I got in better cardio and physical shape, I could work my way up larger and larger hills. As a novice starting out so poorly, I could see improvement every week. I decided to just HTFU and work on the mental side of hill climbing, which I found very important. You gotta want it on the hills and just push through the pain levels.
> 
> ...


This post gets the Salsa_Lover approval :thumbsup:


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I'm pushing 60 and a 11-28 works for me. Of course it all depends on the grade and length of the hills you ride. I will use the 11 on down grades. But, again depending on your rides, it might make some sense to trade the 11 for a 16. In the rolling terrain I ride, it's rare that the gap between 15 and 17 is a problem for long.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I have a 52/42/30 on my nice road bike (didn't know triples weren't cool when I bought it, find I like the range) and 12-27 cassette. My commuter has a 48/34 double and 14-28 freewheel. I do my competing off-road, so I'm accustomed to using low gear ratios and high cadence in the saddle for climbs, sometimes by necessity on a loose surface. I felt like hauling a load of text books up a pretty stiff climb every day on the commuter was keeping me run down and tired all week, which was the motivation for replacing the stock 40 and 52 rings, and I'm really glad I did. I sometimes use the 48/14 ratio but haven't spun it out yet, although I imagine I might if I ever rode that bike in lycra and on longer descents than it sees.

Anyway, I gotta say that I really appreciate having a 30/27 low on my road bike. I did one of my local hard climbs without using that ratio yesterday, but I was also trying to really attack it - I love that I'm not obligated to work that hard on a climb if that's not the ride I'm on. I feel like when people aren't realistic about the gearing they have on climbs, they end up finishing a lot slower, and I'm not sure how much I buy into the idea that they get stronger, either - if I ride at a high power output, I'm practicing a high power output. If my gearing is such that my cadence tanks and I don't have the fitness to complete the climb out of the saddle, I end up grinding up in the saddle at low cadence, or staying out of the saddle, finishing incredibly slowly, and wanting to vomit. I'm not sure if either of these is something that I want to further develop...

I don't think there's such thing as too low a low end, for a rider who has the balance not to go over sideways or wobble all over the road with it, but it may not always be worth making the jumps bigger. Doing intervals on flat roads, I love having close spacing.

For the OP - if you have to finish some climbs out of the saddle but you can do them at some sort of reasonable effort, you may be fine without even a new cassette. I don't know how big your hills are or what most of your routes are like. Pushing ourselves is a part of sports. But if you're bonking, finishing with crappy form, having to rest, etc., lower gearing is, IMO, the right thing to be considering.


----------



## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I'm 5 years older and 30lbs heavier than the OP and the SRAM 12-27 on my bike set up with a compact has taken me over some of the tallest passes in Colorado and other climbs I do on other out of state rides (no mountains in FL where I live). All my FL bikes are set up with 53/39 and 11-12/23 cassettes I wouldn't go with a 12-32 as the jumps between cogs in the rear leave too many big gaps for me to be comfortable in a lot of the gear combos.


----------



## jammin (Feb 7, 2009)

i feel your pain. I struggled on hills alot myself. Switched to a 12-28 and it made a world of difference on the longer steeper climbs, Of course i dropped my weight from 243 to 220. You just have to keep at the hills and tell yourself you can do them. I run the 12-28 with a 105 road rear deraileur no problem.


----------



## boleiro (Jun 11, 2010)

Just because you have a lower geared set up doesn't mean you can't motor up the hills. Lots of pro's are racing up hills with an 11-32 set up when the going gets tough. 

http://road.cc/content/news/36163-giro-tech-contador-goes-apex


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

boleiro said:


> Just because you have a lower geared set up doesn't mean you can't motor up the hills. Lots of pro's are racing up hills with an 11-32 set up when the going gets tough.
> 
> http://road.cc/content/news/36163-giro-tech-contador-goes-apex



They're using gears for climbs that are 12% averages with 22% max grades for 10K. That's a whole lot different than a mile at 10% average with a 15% max.

It also depends upon the riders preferred cadence. Clenbutador prefers to spin a very fast cadence. A guy like Evans (like last year) turned a much slower cadence, but still climbed plenty well.


----------



## boleiro (Jun 11, 2010)

They are also doping, and fit as hell. My point is, if you like to mash a huge gear uphill, do it. But if you like to keep your cadence up and spin up a climb, then go for the lower cogs. Is all about your riding style. So just in case its not clear, I'm agreeing with you Rob.


----------



## tenrec (Jul 30, 2009)

Thanks for all your replies. One of the replies stated that my rear derailleur has a limit of 28 teeth on the largest sprocket, and I'm going to have to confirm this with my LBS. If it's true, I'll have to decide if that's a significant step up from the current 25, and if so, I'll change it. If it's not significant, I won't bother. If it's not true and I can use larger cogs, I'll try that. I'm not ready to change derailleurs at this time.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

tenrec said:


> Thanks for all your replies. One of the replies stated that my rear derailleur has a limit of 28 teeth on the largest sprocket, and I'm going to have to confirm this with my LBS. If it's true, I'll have to decide if that's a significant step up from the current 25, and if so, I'll change it. If it's not significant, I won't bother. If it's not true and I can use larger cogs, I'll try that. I'm not ready to change derailleurs at this time.


According to Shimano, it's 27 teeth max.

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...001/SI_5VG0C_001_En_v1_m56577569830616226.pdf

You'll most likely be able to get away with 28 teeth without much trouble. That said, 3 teeth is a reasonable increase, and it certainly might be what you need.


----------



## tconrady (May 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> According to Shimano, it's 27 teeth max.
> 
> http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...001/SI_5VG0C_001_En_v1_m56577569830616226.pdf
> 
> You'll most likely be able to get away with 28 teeth without much trouble. That said, 3 teeth is a reasonable increase, and it certainly might be what you need.


You're correct for 6600 Ultegra...27t. For 6700 it's 28t. Although I ran an 11-28 on my 6600 with no problem. You just have to be careful setting your chain length and your gearing combos.


----------



## meeshu (Jan 31, 2008)

You may get away with using a 30 tooth cog cassette using a standard _short_ cage derailleur, even though "official" specifications suggest the limit is only 27 or 28 teeth.

Look here and here for further details.


----------



## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

Have you inputed your gear numbers into a gear calculator to see exactly what you have and what you want?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I'm pushing 50*

230 lbs (plus at present - race weight around 220), recovering from a broken hip and I use a 39 / 27 on my road bike
my commuter is a 39/28
you should need no more than a 27 with a 34 front chainring
just keep riding, it will get easier


----------



## dr4cats (Aug 8, 2010)

*11-28 works fine*

I have an SS Ultegra short cage RD with 11-28 and it works just fine. Also another bike with Dura Ace short cage and 11-28 which also works just fine. So for long climbs I recommend 50-34 and 11-28.

There is the 18% climb 10 miles into a ride and there is the 18% climb 75 miles into a ride on the way home in 95 degree temperature.........:cryin:

11-28 can be a bit of a "pain" on long flats when you want to move forward fast and steady like a freight train because it is hard to keep a good steady powerful cadence (bigger jumps in gears with 11-28) but I'll take it compared to the pain of not having enough gears in a long climb.

Mind you this is only my 2 cents of non professional advice. But I am a much better climber than a downhiller.

Good luck with your climbs.


----------



## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

tenrec said:


> I have a 2009 Trek Madone with an Ultegra drivetrain. The crankset is a compact double 50/34, and the rear cassette is 11-25. I rarely use the 11 tooth sprocket because of cross chaining on the small chainring, and because it's too high a gear with the large chainring. I have started riding in some hilly areas and find that I'm having difficulty on some of the steepest climbs, even with the 34/25 combination. I'm considering changing the cassette to a SRAM 11-32 or 12-32. Would my existing rear derailleur handle the new sprockets without modification? Would it be better to go with the 12-32, since I don't use the 11-tooth sprocket with my existing setup? Thanks for any help you can provide.


an Ultegra 6600 RD short cage will work with a 30T cog and a 50/34 upfront... I run a 12/27 cassette with one of the middle cogs removed and I added a 30T cog at the end... works great and will give you a "bail out" gear for steep climbs... no problems with chain length.. of course i never run a 50/30 combo


----------



## jammin (Feb 7, 2009)

robpar said:


> an Ultegra 6600 RD short cage will work with a 30T cog and a 50/34 upfront... I run a 12/27 cassette with one of the middle cogs removed and I added a 30T cog at the end... works great and will give you a "bail out" gear for steep climbs... no problems with chain length.. of course i never run a 50/30 combo



What 12-27 cassette do you run and where did you get the 30 tooth cog?


----------



## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

tenrec said:


> I have a 2009 Trek Madone with an Ultegra drivetrain. The crankset is a compact double 50/34, and the rear cassette is 11-25. I rarely use the 11 tooth sprocket because of cross chaining on the small chainring, and because it's too high a gear with the large chainring. I have started riding in some hilly areas and find that I'm having difficulty on some of the steepest climbs, even with the 34/25 combination. I'm considering changing the cassette to a SRAM 11-32 or 12-32. Would my existing rear derailleur handle the new sprockets without modification? Would it be better to go with the 12-32, since I don't use the 11-tooth sprocket with my existing setup? Thanks for any help you can provide.


an Ultegra 6600 RD short cage will work with a 30T cog and a 50/34 upfront... I run a 12/27 cassette with one of the middle cogs removed and I added a 30T cog at the end... works great and will give you a "bail out" gear for steep climbs... no problems with chain length.. of course i never run a 50/30 combo


----------



## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

jammin said:


> What 12-27 cassette do you run and where did you get the 30 tooth cog?


the 12/27 is a shimano Ultegra 10 speed; the 30T cog came from a SRAM MTB cassette...PG970... I think. The SRAM cassette has loose cogs held together with a small hex bolt; remove the small bolst and the cogs are totally loose. I just happened to have a bunch of cassettes from older bikes... a 9 speed MTB cassette will work fine.
The Shimano 10 speed cassette has the last 3 cogs held together by a riveted spider BUT the middle cogs are loose, so you can remove any of the middle cogs, add the new 30T at the very end of the assembly and use the spacer from the cog you removed between the 27T cog and the new 30T cog.
My other bike has a SRAM cassette 11/28 "customized" to a 11/30 using the same technique. I've also tried a 32T cog but the guide pulley rubs on the cogs, so if you need a 32T cog you have to go to a MTB RD ( my third bike is a triple with a 12/32 10 speed cassette and a Shimano Deore XT RD)


----------



## jammin (Feb 7, 2009)

robpar said:


> .
> The Shimano 10 speed cassette has the last 3 cogs held together by a riveted spider BUT the middle cogs are loose, so you can remove any of the middle cogs, add the new 30T at the very end of the assembly and use the spacer from the cog you removed between the 27T cog and the new 30T cog.



So you would acctually put the 30 cog on first, then the spacer then the spider with the 3 cogs riveted to it and so on?


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

robpar said:


> the 12/27 is a shimano Ultegra 10 speed; the 30T cog came from a SRAM MTB cassette...PG970... I think. The SRAM cassette has loose cogs held together with a small hex bolt; remove the small bolst and the cogs are totally loose. I just happened to have a bunch of cassettes from older bikes... a 9 speed MTB cassette will work fine.
> The Shimano 10 speed cassette has the last 3 cogs held together by a riveted spider BUT the middle cogs are loose, so you can remove any of the middle cogs, add the new 30T at the very end of the assembly and use the spacer from the cog you removed between the 27T cog and the new 30T cog.
> My other bike has a SRAM cassette 11/28 "customized" to a 11/30 using the same technique. I've also tried a 32T cog but the guide pulley rubs on the cogs, so if you need a 32T cog you have to go to a MTB RD ( my third bike is a triple with a 12/32 10 speed cassette and a Shimano Deore XT RD)



Really sounds like you'd have a 16-20% tooth jump somewhere in the cassette. Not really a great situation, but if it works for you...


----------



## LC (Jan 28, 2004)

If your going to customize a cassette then at least lose the 11T so that you keep the more often used middle cogs. Sometime I even take out the 12T if I have the parts to do it, although that has become harder to find with 10 speed. You can always tuck and coast down a hill if your spinning out.


----------



## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

jammin said:


> So you would acctually put the 30 cog on first, then the spacer then the spider with the 3 cogs riveted to it and so on?


Correct. The only caveat: some hubs (like mavik) have that "extra" spacer (1mm) at the very end so you have to install that too.


----------



## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> Really sounds like you'd have a 16-20% tooth jump somewhere in the cassette. Not really a great situation, but if it works for you...


11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-30 is not a bad combo... gives you good gearing for the flats and two great climbing gears... jumps to me are not noticeable when gearing down, since I always unload the pedals as I am lowering my gear when I start climbing... when gearing up, the spacing is pretty tight: never more than two teeth gap...
I've come to feel pretty comfy with changing cassettes ratios to fit my needs and have a bunch of cogs and spacers in my tool box so i can set it up depending on my ride. For the "six gap" ride in the north GA mountains I use my MTB RD with a triple and 34T cog... for Fla, south Ga, SC coast, I use a 11/25 cassette... around the Atlanta metro area, the 11/30 works great for me.


----------



## coachstevo (Sep 11, 2009)

utegra 6600, 6700 and sram red rd will go to 32 on a madone (at least it did on my bike which has the same rear triangle geometry and hangar as a '10 madone). watch the chain length.

I ended up 11-32 with an XX cassette. During late winter/early springi run a 28, then switch to 32 for those long climbing rides- gives me an emergency bailout gear when i'm spent

If you spend most or alot of your time climbing, might as well go with a 32


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

robpar said:


> 11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-30 is not a bad combo... gives you good gearing for the flats and two great climbing gears... jumps to me are not noticeable when gearing down, since I always unload the pedals as I am lowering my gear when I start climbing... when gearing up, the spacing is pretty tight: never more than two teeth gap...
> I've come to feel pretty comfy with changing cassettes ratios to fit my needs and have a bunch of cogs and spacers in my tool box so i can set it up depending on my ride. For the "six gap" ride in the north GA mountains I use my MTB RD with a triple and 34T cog... for Fla, south Ga, SC coast, I use a 11/25 cassette... around the Atlanta metro area, the 11/30 works great for me.


I wasn't referring to unloading the pedals when shifting, I was referring to the large jump in teeth (24-28 in this case) being something around 17% difference? I'm surprised that you don't find that jump tough when most of the other jumps are around 12-14%.

Although I do like the idea. I'd probably go with something more like 12-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-28-30 if I had to do it that way.


----------



## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> I wasn't referring to unloading the pedals when shifting, I was referring to the large jump in teeth (24-28 in this case) being something around 17% difference? I'm surprised that you don't find that jump tough when most of the other jumps are around 12-14%.
> 
> Although I do like the idea. I'd probably go with something more like 12-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-28-30 if I had to do it that way.


Yeah, sure that sounds OK too... but I like my 11T cog on the flats... 
This gives the OP other options :idea:


----------



## jammin (Feb 7, 2009)

I wanna try this, Been looking around. Where can i pickup a 30 cog?


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

jammin said:


> I wanna try this, Been looking around. Where can i pickup a 30 cog?


You'd probably have to cannibalize a 10 speed mountain cassette for one. Or you could ask the local shop if they have any loose cogs floating around you could have.

It's worth a shot. Hell, I might have one floating around in my parts bin. I'd have to dig through and see though.



robpar said:


> Yeah, sure that sounds OK too... but I like my 11T cog on the flats...
> This gives the OP other options :idea:


True. In OPs case the 50/12 only loses 16 or so gear inches on the 50/11. 5 RPM higher cadence would fix that though. If he swapped his big ring to a 52T he could get away with the 12t small cog and only lose about 8 gear inches. Not sure how the shifting would work between the 34 and 52 rings though, that's a big jump.


----------



## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

jammin said:


> I wanna try this, Been looking around. Where can i pickup a 30 cog?


Harris Cyclery used to sell individual cogs- "Shimano Hyperglyde sprockets"
check them out:
harriscyclery.net


----------



## jammin (Feb 7, 2009)

robpar said:


> Harris Cyclery used to sell individual cogs- "Shimano Hyperglyde sprockets"
> check them out:
> harriscyclery.net



Darn out of stock. Thx. for the link i will keep checking.


----------



## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

The last cog on Shimano / SRAM cassettes is offset a few mm to the left. If you put a non offset cog on there then the other 9 cogs will be shifted a couple mm to the right. You'll need to readjust the derailleur and depending on the frame you may not have enough clearance. I'd also worry about the last 1-2 cogs (depending on if they are 11,12 or 12,13) seating correctly on the freehub body... there isn't much room for error there.

OTOH, if it works I have a new way to make extra low gearing for difficult climbing races. 

A 30t solo cog would be rough on aluminum Shimano/SRAM freehub splines. I'd only use it on Ti or steel freehub bodies, or if there is clearance, use the staple trick to prevent notching or tearing right through the splines.


----------



## stickney (Jul 28, 2005)

Does anyone have any hints on how to get the standard Ultegra 6600 front derailleur set up to work with a 50/34 crank (plan on using a 11-28 cassette)? Or should I expect chain rub if I try to get into the 34 and the third or second smallest cog (like 15 or 13)?


----------



## fun2none (Mar 16, 2010)

stickney said:


> Does anyone have any hints on how to get the standard Ultegra 6600 front derailleur set up to work with a 50/34 crank (plan on using a 11-28 cassette)? Or should I expect chain rub if I try to get into the 34 and the third or second smallest cog (like 15 or 13)?


I do not believe there is anything special about setting up a front derailleur to work with a 50/34. All the compact 50/34 setups will rub to some degree when approaching the cross chained extremes. It might be possible to bend the front derailleur cage to reduce rub on against the sides when in the little ring. I don't recommend it.

Short of swapping the 34T for 36T inner chain ring, there is not much that can be done to reduce chain rub against the big ring as you move down (upshift) the cassette to the smaller cogs.

Shifting to the big ring and finding the closest ratio is probably the easiest method. 34/13 is approximately 50/19; 34/15 is about 50/22. Keep in mind, the Shimano 11-28 cassette does not have a 22 cog, while SRAM 11-28 has a 22.


----------



## stickney (Jul 28, 2005)

Thanks -- I will keep tweaking and see what I can get to work.


----------

