# Retroshift



## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Hi, anyone know about these? I'm curious...not much information on the site, just some teaser. I tried, but Google is not my friend.

retroshift | Mud Proof Shifting. Designed by Goats!


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Blast from the past? Suntour "Command Shifters." Worked pretty well, actually.


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Thanks - I'm hoping that they will be along the lines of the commands. 
I had a pair of those on my Vitus Carbone 3 w/ 7sp Superbe pro. It was a real shame that the index detents didn't allow them to be used in index mode with any other freewheel than Suntour - after ST went belly up, it became harder & harder to find parts.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I used to like Sun Tour stuff. Never used those though.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

*retrOshift...*

Hello world!

Typed in 'retroshift' into the Google this eve to take me to our web site to see if it had been updated and noticed a link to this thread. I have been working on getting these new shifters finished and it was very exciting to see that someone on the net has noticed  Thx!

I am actually expecting our first run of pre-production parts to be machined this Thursday here in Portland and if the planets align will have them anodized and built up by the middle of next week. These will be sample sets of the production design for some local cross racers to get dirty and to give their final blessing. I am very keen that all design work be done hand in hand with real world testers and will continue this for the future development of the design.

What we have come up with is a very simple solution for an integrated brake/shifter that provides the same level of shift/brake control from the hoods as STI/Ergopower/SRAM. This system is designed for bikes with drop bars only and will do fine on a road bike/tandem/touring or commuter bike but due to our love of cross here in the NW and the abuse that cross inflicts on our gear we think it is at a clear advantage over the other systems in this realm. It also makes for a great place for stress testing. If it works well in cross it will probably do fine elsewhere!

I have been riding prototypes along with a few others all summer and will be so very happy when the wraps are all off. The goal is to have the web content done by the last week of November. Finished photos and VIDEO of the system. 

Cheers!

Adam
Portland, Oregon


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Thanks Adam, Have been viewing your site for the last couple of months waiting for pictures/clues about goatshift. Still haven't found any stealth photos of your Portland testers online. Looking forward to seeing how they will fare in New Zealand conditions. Best, Nigel


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

*New Zealand*

Hi Nigel,

These should be super for New Zealand, not that different from the NW here in Oregon. We are setting up the page to make shifters available to the U.S. only at this time as just too big a task to figure out international sales from the get go but if you decide you like what you see then please feel free to contact me here and I will be happy to take the time to figure out and ship overseas for you. 

I put up a picture on the site today of the first part (of a part) for proofing. It shows the general shape (outline) of the part and the top surface that will interface with..... the front of a brake lever.... This part makes up one third of the system. The other two parts are a pretty standard brake lever and a pretty standard down tube shifter. That's it!

I talked to the anodizer today and we are tentatively lined up to have parts anodized on Monday and I will try to get a picture up again then, and maybe Friday eve a finished pre-anodized part.

What you are soon to see is a stunningly simple solution.


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Looks compelling, Adam! The chaps and I were speculating about the system down at the pub. Will tell them to check out the pic. I'll be in touch if I can see who's in for a group buy. Best,


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

As interested as I am, teasers are annoying.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Kontact said:


> As interested as I am, teasers are annoying.


Come on, just use your imagination. Remember, designed by goats.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

Oh wow! That's awesome!


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

wim said:


> Come on, just use your imagination. Remember, designed by goats.


I was hoping it was something other than a Kelly Take-Off.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

Your hopes are still good. It is certainly not a Kelly Take Off!


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Yeah, as much as I respect Kelly I just can't live with a shifter that's also plumbing shop. This looks like the schizzle...


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

*fUgly*



Shojii said:


> Yeah, as much as I respect Kelly I just can't live with a shifter that's also plumbing shop. This looks like the schizzle...


Shojii,

I have ridden the Take Offs (and every other system I could lay my hands on) and I have tremendous respect for anyone who actually creates and builds an alternate system. As I am finding out, it takes allot of work!

I like designs where form follows function and think the Take Off's are a pretty cool solution to putting the shift levers near the brakes. I do not use them however and don't really count them as a real shift/brake solution as they miss the key design element - they are not even close to as easy as STI to use. 

STI has set the standard for ease of braking and shifting from one hand position.. I like to think that Retroshift will be a very real alternative to STI just like Ergopower and SRAM are for the very simple reason that it works just as well. That said there are always trade offs between these systems and here are a couple that come to mind:

STI Dura Ace will shift up 3 gears at a time, down 1 at a time. Retroshift will shift up or down 5 gears at a time. Retroshift will also do this with a little more speed than STI.

STI Dura Ace will shift easily from hoods or drops. Retroshift will shift easily from hoods but not from the drops. If you are contesting sprint finishes then Retroshift is probably not for you, but if you ride a good deal of the time on the hoods like is generally done in Cyclocross (also commuting, touring and even some cases racing) then it might be a compelling option.

STI Ultegra 6700 weighs in at 447g/pair. It is too early to say what our first generation units will weigh but the prototypes were just under 400g, so perhaps even some weight savings and more comparable to Dura Ace's 395g/pair.

STI Ultegra retails for about $340 here in the USA, Dura Ace for $400+. Retroshift price (barring any unforeseen surprises) is expected to be about $240 for a 10 speed set up (double or triple chain ring).

STI has the disadvantage of being complicated and can become unreliable with the application of mud and the other rigors of cyclocross. They can also be less than desirable for touring or in a situation where reliability is of high priority. Retroshift is as reliable as your old down tube shifters. On top of this retroshift can also be set up for Shimano 9 or 10 speed indexing and friction. Friction is a nice option for 5, 6, 7 or 8 speed cassettes where STI is not an option. It is hoped that Retroshift will enable the prolonged life of many still good derailleur’s you might have laying around. We like to encourage re-use and re-cycling of bike parts.

I am in a time crunch at present. I am off to Hong Kong Nov 3rd - 15th and am doing all I can to get some of the new sets built up before I leave. If all goes as hoped I should have a video posted on Vimeo with a link so you can see the system in action. A sneak peak a good few weeks before I have the photos/web site ready.

Cheers

Adam


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## 251 (Nov 2, 2009)

Thread subscribed. I've been looking for an alternative to STI for my CX bike, and I'm very interested to see where this goes. :thumbsup:


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

I guess your success will come down to whether people will pay $240 for an aftermarket, hoods-only shifter, instead of $140 for an aftermarket brifter or less for a top mount, Kelly or bar end shifter.

I would suggest you come up with a method of working with SRAM deraileurs, too. SRAM doesn't have as many alternative shifters as Shimano does now, and SRAM has a good rep for dirt use.


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Righto, 

I've been in touch with Adam at Retroshift and have ordered a set. Looks like I'm ready to get over the loss of my beloved Suntour Command shifters.

Here they are in action....(Hey Adam, I hope you don't mind me posting this). 

quick shift demo on Vimeo


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2011)

> STI Dura Ace will shift up 3 gears at a time, down 1 at a time. Retroshift will shift up or down 5 gears at a time. Retroshift will also do this with a little more speed than STI.


With STI it shifts down 3 at a time, up 1 at a time. This is nice for unanticipated stops -- possible to grab the brakes and simultaneously drop three gears in back in one motion. 



> STI Dura Ace will shift easily from hoods or drops. Retroshift will shift easily from hoods but not from the drops. If you are contesting sprint finishes then Retroshift is probably not for you, but if you ride a good deal of the time on the hoods like is generally done in Cyclocross (also commuting, touring and even some cases racing) then it might be a compelling option.[


I'm not contesting sprint finishes, but I ride solo in heavy crosswinds a lot so I like to ride in the drops most of the time on the road. (I don't have my handlebars "slammed" down though -- my usual position is lower than most people's hoods, but higher than other riders' drops) 

I like the ergonomics of the STI best of the systems I've tried, but so far "what I've tried" only includes STI, SRAM, and crappy 80s downtube shifters.

The "retroshift" system looks pretty awesome for muddy situations. IMO I think it would also look more appropriate on, say, restoring an old 80s bike rebuild (Black Carbon Ultegra levers would definitely not...) while being easier to use than downtube shifters.
. I'm guessing this is where the name comes from?



> I guess your success will come down to whether people will pay $240 for an aftermarket, hoods-only shifter, instead of $140 for an aftermarket brifter or less for a top mount, Kelly or bar end shifter.


 It looks like shifting from the drops is at least possible, just awkward (have to reach forward a bit). Still looks better than having to deal with, say, downtube shifters where you have to take your hands pretty far from the brakes.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

PhotonFreak said:


> It looks like shifting from the drops is at least possible, just awkward (have to reach forward a bit). Still looks better than having to deal with, say, downtube shifters where you have to take your hands pretty far from the brakes.


Sounds like you'd be very well served by $80 bar end shifters. With modern compact bars they are even more accessible.


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Different strokes I suppose - if I'm off road and traversing technical terrain (where I'm more likely to need to shift more) I'm mostly on the hoods. If I'm in the drops and hitting a downhill section, I've got less need to shift, so these will be perfect for me. I currently use campy TT shifters as my bar-end shifters, but these will be a better tool for me. Mud up!


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

Test units in assembly.

Hi PhotonFreak. The design form is a result of the specific needs of cyclocross, simple, durable and serviceable. The name 'Retroshift' came about as a result of the use of downtube shifters which are now deemed retro.

If you are down in the drops most of the time then a set of STI might well suit you better. Kontact mentioned that Barends might be a good option and they certainly are super shifting system (also simple, durable and serviceable - I am a long time fan and always thought them the BEST choice when it came to touring for instance). They will not be quite as easy to shift from the drops as retroshift, STI is still well ahead here but as Kontact points out still work well. Retroshift simply offers another option and attribute mix. I like to think of them as Barends (durable, light) with the ease of shifting of STI. 

Cheers

Adam


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

pdxsnap said:


> Test units in assembly.
> 
> Hi PhotonFreak. The design form is a result of the specific needs of cyclocross, simple, durable and serviceable. The name 'Retroshift' came about as a result of the use of downtube shifters which are now deemed retro.
> 
> ...


Very nice looking. I can see where the shifter mounts on the lever. Are supplying the actually shifter? Can you use either Campy or Shimano DT shifters or barcons?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Shojii said:


> Different strokes I suppose - if I'm off road and traversing technical terrain (where I'm more likely to need to shift more) I'm mostly on the hoods.


Back in the day, many if not most cross riders went into the drops on technical terrain, which made bar-ends a good choice. But things change, including bar widths


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

Hi cs1,

We will be providing the units naked (without shifters) and user can install their own or with 9sp or 10sp Dura Ace. To date we have only used Shimano for the project but it is likely others will also work. I plan to try some SRAM bar end shifters in the near future.

Adam


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

pdxsnap said:


> Hi cs1,
> 
> We will be providing the units naked (without shifters) and user can install their own or with 9sp or 10sp Dura Ace. To date we have only used Shimano for the project but it is likely others will also work. I plan to try some SRAM bar end shifters in the near future.
> 
> Adam


While you're at it see if Campy bar ends work. The nice thing about Campy bar ends is all it takes is a $10 bill to buy a new Ergo gear. That means you can go 8, 9 or 10 sp without buying a new shifter.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

Come to think of it, SRAM or Campy RTC, return to center barcons would make it a world class design. Just think if 11 sp Campy CF barcons were used.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

*Bar End Shifters*

Hi cs1,

Bar end shifters generally are much stiffer than down tube shifters and so not as ideally suited for mounting in this position, but can work. It is possible also that they could be modified to click a little easier. The return to center ones you mention would look nice sitting centered on the levers but you would loose the ability to shift more than one gear at a time, at least I am pretty sure the SRAM ones only shift one click at a time.

I have a call into my Campy aficionado to do a little research in the area of Campy DT and BE shifters. For now I feel we at least are aff to a good start with Shimano compatibility (7, 9 and 10sp all tested fine so far).

Adam


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*since you appear*

to be providing a place for DT shifters I assume one could go as retro as say 8 speed? I share your love and concern for all things cross and have found 8 speed to be more reliable and abuser friendly. As my stock of 8 speed STIs will slowly die from cross abuse this may be the answer I'm looking for

and thx for coming up with a solution to a very common problem.I'm guessing the levers will point in and up and rotate in toward the middle


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

*8sp*

Hi atpjunkie,

Yes I am quite sure this system will work with 8sp Shimano DT shifters. I did list them directly as I have not tried them and so just want to be safe. I would think also with 8sp (as with 7sp) that it becomes very easy to use in friction mode if you should so desire. I run 10sp friction on the road but in cross this is a little less doable, but still a great back up if needed.

Also here is a quick and dirty video I posted that will show a little of how the levers work (might answer your question as to where the levers point). Also if you look at the pictures in the thread of the bare levers in assembly you might be able to make out that we have built in some adjustability in the position that levers can be mounted. The boss can be attached so that the shift lever is in line with the brake lever in its lowest gear or 45% outbound of the brake lever. 

Retroshift on Vimeo

Cheers!


Adam


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*thx Adam*



pdxsnap said:


> Hi atpjunkie,
> 
> Yes I am quite sure this system will work with 8sp Shimano DT shifters. I did list them directly as I have not tried them and so just want to be safe. I would think also with 8sp (as with 7sp) that it becomes very easy to use in friction mode if you should so desire. I run 10sp friction on the road but in cross this is a little less doable, but still a great back up if needed.
> 
> ...


works exactly as I had imagined
guess I gotta start digging up some 8 speed DT shifters, yes and friction is always an option and always nice on the front ring


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

pdxsnap said:


> Hi cs1,
> 
> Bar end shifters generally are much stiffer than down tube shifters and so not as ideally suited for mounting in this position, but can work.
> Adam


Adam

Campy barcon shifters are just their old DT shifters with a rubber cover. If you check the spare parts catalog they actually show it. The nice thing about Campy is that you can replace the Ergo Gear for about $10 and go from 9 - 10 sp.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

pdxsnap said:


> Retroshift on Vimeo


Very nice. Are you making just the levers or the entire assembly?


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

*Update*

Hi cs1 I have still not tried them with Campy shifters but imagine should work, still plan to do so as well as with SRAM. I did have one of our test riders mount Shimano Bar End shifters instead of Dura Ace Down Tube shifters and is very happy with them. 

Parts were anodized today, they will get to laser engraved beginning of next week and finish machine work and assembly the week after. Of course with Thanksgiving it might be tight. I am aiming to have site done and parts available the second week of December.

Feedback from our Cyclocross racers has been super. There is a picture of one of them using a 1X9 version on the main retroshift | Mud Proof Shifting. Designed by Goats! page.

Cheers all!

Adam
Portland, OR


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

pdxsnap said:


> Feedback from our Cyclocross racers has been super. There is a picture of one of them using a 1X9 version on the main retroshift | Mud Proof Shifting. Designed by Goats! page.
> 
> Cheers all!
> 
> ...


Adam I hope you don't mind me copying a link to the photo. Everyone should see how nice these look. I think you're onto something. Good luck


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

The shift lever looks a lot like a Campy Ergo shift lever. Is that a quick release button I see? Do you have any photos of the complete lever?


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Here are a couple of good pics that I found posted on some other sites. Looking forward to getting a set of these mudded up!


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

They look like Campy shifters or the Tektro version. Nice as far as I can see.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

If the levers/bodies are the standard Tektro units, I wonder if the addition of the shifter (and its actuation) will exacerbate the slop in the pivots/pins.


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## Shojii (Nov 27, 2004)

Latest from Adam at retroshift 


Web page and product should launch first or second week of December.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

cs1 said:


> It looks like the levers already have pins built into them. You'd like to believe that the finished product will work.


I was referring to the interface between the lever and body. IME, Tektro-made levers have a lot of play, right out of the box. I would imagine that the additional lateral force on the brake lever blade would increase the wear of the pivot/bushings (between the lever/body) more quickly.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

GRAVELBIKE said:


> If the levers/bodies are the standard Tektro units, I wonder if the addition of the shifter (and its actuation) will exacerbate the slop in the pivots/pins.


It looks like the levers already have pins built into them. You'd like to believe that the finished product will work.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

Hi all an update and will try to answer some questions. My apologies for not posting as often as I would like as it has been busy here.

GRAVELBIKE - These are indeed Tektro units, it is an R200A as sold by Cane Creek. We went through a number of different brakes levers before we came to choose this particular model. Each one had its particular strengths and weaknesses. This lever was the best ergonomic fit for the job and also despite it having a bit more slop than some other levers were still hands down the favorite with the riders. A good case in point is watching any weekend single speed CX race here in Oregon where the majority or riders are using this lever over all others. One plus is that the bushings can easily be replaced if they should wear though we have not had to do this on any of our units to date.

Shojii - Yes we are still aiming to have the site done and shift systems available the second week of December. It is Thanksgiving week here and I am busy with another business of my own and another of a friends I am helping with. Not much rest for the wicked!

cs1 - I still have not bolted on Campy shifters! I am so sorry and will continue to do my best to get some set up asap. I do now have 4 riders using Shimano Bar End shifters (in addition to riders using the Down Tube type) and feedback has been excellent. I was not sure how the bend in this type of shifter would feel in the units but they like it and also additionally like the rubber covers that these shifters have.

atpjunkie - Let me know how the 8sp index is goes. I have a rider on 8sp now but he is more retro than anyone I know and is using his system friction only!

ALSO - when the system becomes available it will not only have been race tested but also we are thrilled to say that it is a race WINNING system. Erik Tonkin won last Sundays race here in Oregon in the muddiest conditions of the season. Of course shifters don't win races, its the rider that does that, our job is to provide a system that goes the distance.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks for the update/info. I love the shape of the R200/SCR-5 levers, but I wish some cottage/garage machinist would make some better bushings.

Best of luck with the product.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

If the point of this product is to avoid complex shifters that will fail in bad conditions, why would anyone mount a return-to-center shifter on it? That sounds like an expensive way to make a poor STI lever.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

*Not to bad for our first offering*

Kontact - I agree it would be a bit funny using super expensive RTC shifters on these but to each their own and options are part of the fun for many. I expect most will opt for the pretty standard Shimano Bar End shifters in 8, 9 or 10sp or any old pair of DT shifters they have on hand.

I tossed a 10sp set up on the scales today and they came in at 390 grams complete which I think is not too bad considering they are built for durability not weight. This is about 20 grams more than Dura-Ace 7900 and 100 grams less than Ultegra 6700.

Still working away here with anodizing done and now looking at finish machine work and laser engraving before assembly.

Cheers

Adam


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

Nice coverage!

Very proud to see this today. 

First Look! Retroshift Brake & Shift Levers for Cyclocross - Bike Rumor

I am going to drop this in the CX forum also.

Cheers!

Adam


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

nevermind. I get it now.


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## shinewheel (Jan 14, 2011)

*home made version*

I was intrigued with the Retroshift product and so was inspired to try my own version. I had the Tektro levers and Suntour downtube shifters already, so I only needed to fab some mounts for the levers. Since I am running friction shifters on both sides it made things simpler to swap the actual levers side to side. The left shifts the front derailleur but it came from the right downtube position.

The bike is my commuter, it is an old six speed. I had this also set up for a short while with a nine speed bike, it worked but the shift throw was way long and I wanted that wheel for another bike.

The main change I made was to aim the levers upward. This simplifies cable routing and actually shifts very nicely and easily, the housing exit is not in the way of my fingers. I need to take care to not apply the brakes while shifting, but I had that learning curve also with brifter shifting many years ago.

One concern might be catching the levers on OTB excursions. I tried some shortened levers but shifting was too hard. As they are now the shift excursions are only to the inside from vertical.

I thought I'd show it here for reference, thanks pdxsnap for the inspiration.

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/images/attach/jpg.gif


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