# Benefits of a Time Trial Bike?



## eithr (Jun 27, 2007)

I'm considering swapping my current road bike for a tt specific bike. I like the aggressive look of the bike as well as the idea of committing to a more aero riding position - should promote a faster ride, right? However, what might be some limitations of using a tt bike for longer road races? Or just limitations in general? What might be some benefits?

Also, specifically, I'm looking at a Nashbar Aero Sprint - if anyone's heard of it or has an opinion, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Well, they are fas... WAIT A SECOND.

"should promote a faster ride, right?" -- do you mean, training?

"what might be some limitations of using a tt bike for longer road races" -- primarily that they are banned. Some of the frames might not be, but the bars definitely are... 

Other limitations are that they don't climb as well, they are harder to control, and people on group rides will hate you.

They are faster in time trials, though. Potentially by quite a bit.


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## eithr (Jun 27, 2007)

Why are they banned? The one I'm looking at looks a lot like a regular road bike, but the seat stays join to the top tube just in front of the seat post and the front wheel is smaller than the rear wheel.


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## tcruse11 (Jun 9, 2006)

b/c those are the rules. Just put clip on aero bars onto your current road bike. You still can't use them in a road race, but they're easily removable.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*banned x 2*



eithr said:


> Why are they banned? The one I'm looking at looks a lot like a regular road bike, but the seat stays join to the top tube just in front of the seat post and the front wheel is smaller than the rear wheel.


That sounds like an older-style TT bike. Those "funny bikes," with small front wheels, are banned these days, at least in UCI-type time trials.

The main thing that is OBVIOUSLY banned are the time-trial handlebars. Them's the roolz.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

"should promote a faster ride, right?"
.
Faster legs promote a faster ride. The amount of drag that a bike produces, compared to the drag a rider produces, is tiny. You had better be hauling a$$ to expect much benifit from a TT specific bike. If you can't pull off a 1:02 in a 40K, don't expect a TT bike to get you sub hour. If you can pull off a 58 on a road bike with aerobars, a TT bike just might help you get down close to a 57
True TT bikes do not use clip-ons with "normal" bars, that's what makes them illegal for road races and crits.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*details*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> "should promote a faster ride, right?"
> .
> Faster legs promote a faster ride. The amount of drag that a bike produces, compared to the drag a rider produces, is tiny. You had better be hauling a$$ to expect much benifit from a TT specific bike. If you can't pull off a 1:02 in a 40K, don't expect a TT bike to get you sub hour. If you can pull off a 58 on a road bike with aerobars, a TT bike just might help you get down close to a 57
> True TT bikes do not use clip-ons with "normal" bars, that's what makes them illegal for road races and crits.


Yes, USCF rules prohibit handlebar extentions (aerobars) as well as handlebars that point forward at the ends (like bullhorns). There are also restrictions on how far forward the bars can be with respect to the front axle, if I recall correctly.

No disc wheels for road racing.

Just about all TT frames you can get now are ok for road racing rules, except when the USCF rules adopting the UCI bike rules kick in. Can't remember when. Then, there are much tighter rules on tubing shapes, saddle position, tire clearance, etc. (oh, and weight). "Y" bikes and beam bikes are ok now, but will be banned.

If you want a hybrid TT and road racing bike, I'd suggesting something like the Cervelo Soloist. It's essentially road race geometry with aero tubing shapes. 

Speaking of geometry, you (OP) know the primary purpose of a TT frame is different geometry. More suited for getting low on aerobars, but at the expense of comfort, handling.

I had read one time that part of the rationale for UCI bike rules is to keep everyone roughly the same in terms of bike handling. Theoretically, if riders are on bikes that handle the same, then when peoplke corner in huge packs, they are all roughly doing the same thing. If a bike handled much differently, it could make crashes more likely. Just imaging Rasmussen on a TT bike in a 180 rider pack!


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

*TT bike*

SHOULD NEVER be the only bike in your household. If you want to get one in ADDITION to your road bike....great. Most groups will ban them on group rides, as they are not as nimble or responsive, and the aerobars could impale someone. USCF rules prohibit TT bikes in all races except Time Trials. UCI rules don't apply to most mortals so, I don't worry about them. Argie might have to though. As far as a faster ride, yeah, they are a LITTLE faster. about 1-2 mph faster over the same course, that's it. Don't expect magic speed gains with a TT bike. That being said, I love mine, and ride it quite a bit, but then I'm racing tri's and TT's now. I also have several other road bikes. Hope that helps.


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## FrancisB (Sep 10, 2006)

TT bikes suck for general riding. 

A friend of ours started doing Tri's last year, and on the advice of an 'ironman' participant, bought a used TT bike as her only bike. 

It's squirrelly, not very comfortable, and not a great first bike for a new rider. If you're going to have 1 bike, make it a general road bike, and clip on 'areo' bars for the few times you're on a TT type course ride.

As was stated, Lance Armstrong on a bigwheel could beat 99% of all riders on a Cervelo; It's the legs, not the bike... 

YMMV


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*special purpose*



FrancisB said:


> TT bikes suck for general riding.
> 
> A friend of ours started doing Tri's last year, and on the advice of an 'ironman' participant, bought a used TT bike as her only bike.
> 
> ...


Yes, a time trial bike is a special purpose machine. A road racing bike is more like a Porsche; a time trial bike is more like a single seat open wheel formula car (with 1 inch of suspension travel, you sit on a pad on the floor, etc.). It's faster, but comfort is only a factor to the extent minimally necessary to complete the event effectively.

If you have to have just one bike, get a Cervelo Soloist (somewhat aero road frame) and two sets of wheels, road and aero/time trial. Slide the seat forward and thrown the aero bars when you time trial.

So, would anyone choose the big wheel over the Cervelo for their next event?


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## FrancisB (Sep 10, 2006)

Fixed said:


> So, would anyone choose the big wheel over the Cervelo for their next event?


Only if I got Lance's lungs and legs instead of mine...


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

eithr said:


> Why are they banned? The one I'm looking at looks a lot like a regular road bike, but the seat stays join to the top tube just in front of the seat post and the front wheel is smaller than the rear wheel.


PICTURE please


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## BigDaddySmooth (May 21, 2004)

*I've been debating this myself*

But as usual, I tend to outsmart myself and overlook what is blatantly obvious to even the most casually observer. As I see it, the only reason to have a tri/TT bike is to avoid the hassle of strapping a set of aerobars on your road bike and the subsequent saddle adjustment. Who am I to make such an assertive claim? Nobody really, but lets look at the obvious. A decked out tri bike will cost $1K to 5+K. A set of aerobars is $40-100. A few years ago, the Bicycle Guide (or maybe it was Bicycling) conducted a test on the different items to improve your aerodynamics. Each item (aerobars, wheels, helmet, blah, blah, blah) was tested individually and then all items were tested together. The "researcher' then extrapolated teh data to what the time savings would be in a 40K TT. The aerobars alone saved a little over 3 minutes. All the items together would save just under 4 minutes. The recommendation---get yourself some bars and be done with it. 

The only way to get faster is to train. A rear wheel cut-out is not going to win you a race if you are not physically able to win the race.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*disagree*



BigDaddySmooth said:


> The only way to get faster is to train.


Going as fast as you can has two primary components, power and drag. You need more power and less drag. Why ignore all components of the latter? If you are truly racing, that makes no sense to me whatsoever. 

According to what's on the Cervelo website, here are the savings for a Cat 3 in a 40k time trial, for someone with "good" (medium) positioning:

Aero positioning: 2:45 (with TT position and aerobars)
Aero wheels: 1:23
Aero frame: 0:55

For other categories, the time saved could be more or less. Bottom line, though, is that just about all research shows significant savings from aero equipment in time trials. http://www.cervelo.com/content.aspx?m=Engineering&i=Aerodynamics

There are two distinct issues, and I think far too many people confuse them. The first is whether an aero bike will make you win a race. As you say, probably not, unless you are very close anyway. The second is whether aero equipment will make you faster. I think the answer is very clearly yes, and and amount can be fairly well predicted. So, it's up to each person to decide whether he or she wants to go faster, even a minute, in a race. As for me, I sure as heck don't want to give up a minute in any race, unless of course if I'm a sandbagging Cat 4 making 400 watts and just don't want to upgrade (which I'm not).

Explain why anyone racing should not want to take full advantage of reducing drag as much as they can, at least given their budget?


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

eithr said:


> I'm considering swapping my current road bike for a tt specific bike. I like the aggressive look of the bike as well as the idea of committing to a more aero riding position - should promote a faster ride, right? However, what might be some limitations of using a tt bike for longer road races? Or just limitations in general? What might be some benefits?
> 
> Also, specifically, I'm looking at a Nashbar Aero Sprint - if anyone's heard of it or has an opinion, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> Cheers.


By now you know that the aerobars are not permitted any USCF legal for mass start events. However, there is one aerobar that is allowed. Cane Creek makes this bar called Speedbar. I used to use in the races and I find it very comfortable. I could be wrong but I believe any aerobar that allows you to rest any part of your arms are banned for control/braking isuues it creates. Take a look at this if you want to clip it on your existing bike for a fater time. I strongly suggest that you don't replace your road bike with TT bike.

http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=2166


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

I want a TT bike...

But as the others have said, it saves on time, though not much actually. A set of aerobars would do you the most savings though.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

*to slightly steal the thread*

are a forward seatpost and tri type saddle useful with the clip on bars?


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

uzziefly said:


> IBut as the others have said, it saves on time, though not much actually.


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1436738;search_string=;guest=14433498#1436738

The supporting data can be found through a web search.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Schneiderguy said:


> are a forward seatpost and tri type saddle useful with the clip on bars?



Here is a useful article on the difference between TT bike and road bike.


http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/difference.shtml


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

Despite the posted articles, you have to wonder, would a cheaper time trial bike (say a felt S32 that weighs 20 plus lbs) be faster for a 40K time trial than a madone 6.9 15 lbs. bike without areobars or not, given the same rider and course???


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

If you aren't doing TT races or triathlons don't do it.

1. it is quite a bit more unstable so... -you increase your risk of getting hurt, -no one will want to ride with you.

2. In general they suck when the road goes up.

3. most gain a little speed from the design shape and sacrifice on the weight side

4. ridding around in TT gear all the time makes you look like an idiot. (often you are far slower then guys riding a 20 year old lugged steel bike anyway)

5. even experienced racers need a lot of time to adapt to the position. If you're asking this question, chances are you are not one.

6. They are often very tough to imposible to put on conventional bike stands, work stands, and trunk racks.

7. you get more aero benifit off using an aero helmet then an aero frame.


But... i've got a used Softride for sale for cheep... TT7 model. I'm 5-9 but it's a little small on me, size is very adjustable. Dura ace 9 on there, with carbon TT bars, i'll throw in a set of older HED deep dish wheels that i haven't used in years. (no cassette or skewers)

getting married a week from tomorow... must reduce bikes collecting dust...


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

vanjr said:


> Despite the posted articles, you have to wonder, would a cheaper time trial bike (say a felt S32 that weighs 20 plus lbs) be faster for a 40K time trial than a madone 6.9 15 lbs. bike without areobars or not, given the same rider and course???


Dude, are you serious?

Go to analytical cycling. Make a rider with a drag coefficient of .4m^2, and another at .2m^2. I don't think those are unreasonable values for frontal area. The big cDa is the Madone, the little one is the Felt.

Make the Felt weigh 5 pounds more. Put rider at 300 watts on both bikes.

The Felt will be substantially faster.

On the flat (which is what most time trials are), weight means almost nothing.

-estone2


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

dfleck said:


> 7. you get more aero benifit off using an aero helmet then an aero frame.


Since the relilable data show an aero frame reduces drag comparable to a set of aero wheels and aero wheels reduce drag more than an aero helmet, it would appear the aero frame produces greater benefit than the helmet.


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## newbie13 (Feb 13, 2007)

Is there a difference between a Time Trial (TT) bike and a tri-bike? or are they the same thing?


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

Tri bikes tend to have a steeper seat tube angle, this is to save the hamstrings for the run. most tt/tri bikes are very simalar though take the cervelo p3c the seat post has two different clamps one for tt slacker one for tri steeper.


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

estone2 said:


> Dude, are you serious?
> 
> Go to analytical cycling. Make a rider with a drag coefficient of .4m^2, and another at .2m^2. I don't think those are unreasonable values for frontal area. The big cDa is the Madone, the little one is the Felt.
> 
> ...


dude, i was/am serious. 

and this is exactly the type of answer i wanted. thanx!


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## newbie13 (Feb 13, 2007)

So you guys wouldn't recommend a Tri bike for someone that does Triathlons?


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*definitely*



vanjr said:


> Despite the posted articles, you have to wonder, would a cheaper time trial bike (say a felt S32 that weighs 20 plus lbs) be faster for a 40K time trial than a madone 6.9 15 lbs. bike without areobars or not, given the same rider and course???


Unless it's up a 10% grade, yes. Aero trumps weight just about always.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*similar*



newbie13 said:


> Is there a difference between a Time Trial (TT) bike and a tri-bike? or are they the same thing?


Generally, they are the same. As far as I understand the rules, though, in tri's you can use beam bikes, bikes with smaller front wheels, other weird frames, etc., but under UCI rules, which are in part adopted by USCF, you have much tighter restrictions on bike design (diamond frame, same size wheels, saddle/handlebar location particulars, tire clearance, frame tube design, etc.). However, generally we're talking the same thing. What works non-drafting tri's works for time trials. Going fast on a bike solo is the same either way.


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## Chompers (Feb 3, 2004)

Argentius said:


> . . . and people on group rides will hate you.


YES . . . We have group rides here and we have a handfull of riders show up with decked out TT bikes, disc wheel(s), skin suit, aero helmut, not one second spared. One of the problems is, the ride starts in town, so we have to negatiate several stop signs, and for whatever reason these people fail to got out of the aero position . . . some on the other hand can ride them well and it's not a problem. I do hate it when we are in a group about 2 to 3 wide going down a hill and the guy next to me is in the aero position.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Chompers said:


> YES . . . We have group rides here and we have a handfull of riders show up with decked out TT bikes, disc wheel(s), skin suit, aero helmut, not one second spared. One of the problems is, the ride starts in town, so we have to negatiate several stop signs, and for whatever reason these people fail to got out of the aero position . . . some on the other hand can ride them well and it's not a problem. I do hate it when we are in a group about 2 to 3 wide going down a hill and the guy next to me is in the aero position.


I hear you. Generally, TT bike with aerobar is not welcome in our group ride.
In the event of someone new show up, we usually ask him or her to stay at the back of the group....


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