# Cornstarch OK on tubes?



## NoMSG (Mar 6, 2004)

Coulnd't find any talc in the house, so I used cornstarch on the tubes to mount the tires. Hell, if it's good enough for my baby's bottom, it can't be too bad for the tubes...can it?


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## Dave_Stohler (Jan 22, 2004)

Add some water to the cornstarch and see what a mess it makes and decide for yourself. They use it for thickening gravy. Even a little water will make it turn into a goo that will probably stick to everything.

BTW, who on earth uses cornstarch on a baby? You use talcum powder!!!


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## NoMSG (Mar 6, 2004)

*Books + pediatrician.*



Dave_Stohler said:


> ....who on earth uses cornstarch on a baby? You use talcum powder!!!


Talcum gets airborne and into the lungs. For the past 10 years, health professionals generally prefer cornstarch over talcum. They didn't say anything about bike tubes though.

Yeah, I thought about the water/cornstarch issue. But that's all I had, and I gotta do a ride in 8 hours. If anyone has some concrete information that this is a no-no, I'll just have to redo the whole shebang with talcum (or at least without the cornstarch).


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Won't the cornstarch attract cooties? I think I'd rather have that airborne powder instead.


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## bsavery123 (Nov 8, 2004)

cornstarch is good on both babys and tubes. 



But you have to cook them right first


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## Thorn Bait (Feb 3, 2004)

Dave_Stohler said:


> Add some water to the cornstarch and see what a mess it makes and decide for yourself. They use it for thickening gravy. Even a little water will make it turn into a goo that will probably stick to everything.
> 
> BTW, who on earth uses cornstarch on a baby? You use talcum powder!!!


Most baby powders out there are corn starch - I haven't seen a talc on in a while.... It has not been my experience that those powders turn to goo by any means - more like a crumb cake kind of texture - and not sticky by any means. I wouldn't think there would be any problem...


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## Thorn Bait (Feb 3, 2004)

Thorn Bait said:


> Most baby powders out there are corn starch - I haven't seen a talc on in a while.... It has not been my experience that those powders turn to goo by any means - more like a crumb cake kind of texture - and not sticky by any means. I wouldn't think there would be any problem...


P.S. When was the last time you changed a diaper?


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Thorn Bait said:


> P.S. When was the last time you changed a diaper?


It "depends" (pun intended!) on how good yer diapers are.  Believe me, when a kid does a "big load", cornstarch vs. talc is the last thing you're worried about.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

NoMSG said:


> Coulnd't find any talc in the house, so I used cornstarch on the tubes to mount the tires. Hell, if it's good enough for my baby's bottom, it can't be too bad for the tubes...can it?


Why do you need talc or cornstarch on tubes? You can skip that step jack.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

Sintesi said:


> Why do you need talc or cornstarch on tubes? You can skip that step jack.


I agree. I just don't see why this is needed.


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## Thorn Bait (Feb 3, 2004)

It makes the inner tubes less sticky, and so it is easier to tuck the buggers in without pinch flatting them. I've never done it, but I'd be willing to try. I don't think it would be a big deal either way.


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## HAL9000 (May 1, 2002)

*'cause.........*

It just makes installation (and removal) of a tire & tube MUCH easier.

Hmmmm

If I do this simple thing & it will make a future event far far easier..... Naa I like the hard, self inflicted martirs way.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

I know the reason people do it and I change enought tires to realize that it just doesn't make that big of a difference. Talcing a spare tube so that it doesn't wear out in the seat bag? Talc alternative? Absurd. I shouldn't have even posted...


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

HAL9000 said:


> It just makes installation (and removal) of a tire & tube MUCH easier.
> 
> Hmmmm
> 
> If I do this simple thing & it will make a future event far far easier..... Naa I like the hard, self inflicted martirs way.


No martyrdom here. changing a tube is already simple and easy the talc is superfluous in my opinion.


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## bigdeal (Jul 24, 2002)

*........*



Fogdweller said:


> I know the reason people do it and I change enought tires to realize that it just doesn't make that big of a difference. Talcing a spare tube so that it doesn't wear out in the seat bag? Talc alternative? Absurd. I shouldn't have even posted...


you know, up until last Monday night I would have agreed with you that it doesn't make a difference. I got my first flat in a while (~1k miles) and the tube was REALLY hard to get off of the tire (yes, you read that right). I had to take the whole tire off the rim then peel the tube off the tire bit by bit, afraid that i was going to either stretch the tube and render it useless (after patching of course) or that it was going to rip apart and remain bonded to the tire. I thought it might be the tires (veloflex pave), but after a few minutes I remember the whole thing about powder. Once I got home I re-tubed the wheel and used talc.


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## Cerddwyr (Jul 26, 2004)

Thorn Bait said:


> It makes the inner tubes less sticky, and so it is easier to tuck the buggers in without pinch flatting them. I've never done it, but I'd be willing to try. I don't think it would be a big deal either way.


I keep my spare tube in a ziplock with a little talc. New tubes go in a ziplock long enough to get talced, then into the tire. This gets talc on the tube, and not in my lungs, all over my clothes, all over the cat, all over the house, you get the idea.
I find a little talc makes tube changes quicker and easier. A little talc also gets on the tire bead, making seating easier. I also am of the opinion that a little talc lets the tire and tube slide just a tiny bit, reducing pinch flats.

Gordon


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## NoMSG (Mar 6, 2004)

*Need has nothing to do with it.*



Sintesi said:


> Why do you need talc or cornstarch on tubes? You can skip that step jack.


It's real simple. Tubes that aren't talced can stick to the tires when you try to remove them (especially if they've been on for a year or so). The tube then gets in the way when I use a lever to remove the bead. Maybe I'm just not that skilled, but I'm afraid I'd pinch the tube with the lever in these situations.

Also, we're not talking about the merits of a carbon crank versus an aluminum one, or the cost/benefit of upgrading from Ultegra to Dura Ace. Talcing costs about a cent and takes me an extra 60 seconds. It's really not that big a deal.  If you haven't had the problems I've had, then don't do it.

I only raised this issue because I didn't know what affect, if any, time would have on the rubber/cornstarch combination after a few months.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Talc is good on tubes, and after a shower on a hot, humid day. Also works well on the cat (re: Cerddwyr).


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## HAL9000 (May 1, 2002)

*There is that weight problem*

you get from the .02 g of powder you just added to your wheel, oh my gosh.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

HAL9000 said:


> you get from the .02 g of powder you just added to your wheel, oh my gosh.


Exactly my point!! It's rotational weight as well.


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## saccycling (Sep 30, 2004)

*It seems to me*

I would think talc or anything else would make it harder to clean, in case you have to patch.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

That too.


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## Ronsonic (Nov 11, 2004)

*It's okay except it'll make your gravy shiny*

If you want to thicken a sauce and give it a gloss, use the cornstarch. Otherwise flour, etc..

For the tubes, it won't add flavor, but won't hurt. I don't think it'll help like talc after the initial installation.

Ron


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Hey! Shiny gravy & sticky tubes...YUM!! And just in time for X-mas dinner!


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Fogdweller said:


> I agree. I just don't see why this is needed.


Talcing tubes is an old school myth, much like tieing and soldering spokes, wiping
tires, not shaving before time trials, etc.


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## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

*Wiping tires?*

I put talc on the inside of tires the first time I mount them, hoping that it well help slide the last few inches onto the rim. Once and only once per tire. I also wipe tires when I run thru shite. It's tough to convince me that it's futile when I feel stuff being brushed away and get relatively few flats. But what the hey? I'm most definitely old school, so I guess I'll live with the derision implicit in your post grateful that I'm too lazy to tie or solder spokes.


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## NoMSG (Mar 6, 2004)

*I'm going to bed.*



Ronsonic said:


> If you want to thicken a sauce and give it a gloss, use the cornstarch. Otherwise flour, etc..
> 
> For the tubes, it won't add flavor, but won't hurt. I don't think it'll help like talc after the initial installation.
> 
> Ron


You're all [email protected] I sick of you smart asses. It's Xmas eve and I've had a couple (or moreo) of bourbons  . I'm gonna leave my cornstarched tubes as are. I don't give a shate if it attracts roaches or mashed taters, or if it it siezes to my tubes after a rainy ride then so be it..

I ask a simple question and I attract 20+ posts about gravy (sigh). Everyone have a merry @ss christmas!


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

NoMSG said:


> You're all [email protected] I sick of you smart asses. It's Xmas eve and I've had a couple (or moreo) of bourbons  . I'm gonna leave my cornstarched tubes as are. I don't give a shate if it attracts roaches or mashed taters, or if it it siezes to my tubes after a rainy ride then so be it..
> 
> I ask a simple question and I attract 20+ posts about gravy (sigh). Everyone have a merry @ss christmas!


Dood, we're just funnin' ya! And some people here just can't resist being a weisen-heimah, (me included) 

Have an extra bourbon fer me - wish I could join ya. And Merry Frickin' X-mas!!


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## P-Quoddy (Oct 25, 2004)

Utah CragHopper said:


> Talcing tubes is an old school myth, much like tieing and soldering spokes, wiping
> tires, not shaving before time trials, etc.


You ought to write a letter to the tube manufacturers who pre-talc their tubes and share your extensive experience. They'd appreciate your expertise.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

P-Quoddy said:


> You ought to write a letter to the tube manufacturers who pre-talc their tubes and share your extensive experience. They'd appreciate your expertise.


Perhaps you would like to argue the point with Jobst Brandt. Why don't you
give us your scientific reasons to talc your tubes, Mr. Wizard.

From Jobst Brandt:

"In the days before tubeless tires on cars, automotive tubes that were
not much thicker than the heavier bicycle tubes vulcanized into the
tire from the heat of the road and would rip when forcefully removed.
For this purpose, talcum was extensively used. Bicycles don't have
enough power not enough rolling resistance to generate vulcanizing
temperatures required to cause such adhesion so using talc has little
purpose. You'll notice that tubes contain talcum, and that is for the
purpose of preventing adhesion in the package of two absolutely clean
surfaces. You don't have that problem. In fact, adhesion of the tube
to the casing prevents rapid air escape in the event of a thorn
penetration.

"Talcum, like tying and soldering, will last as much as 40 years after
the last need for it vanished. The last need for tying spokes
together at their crossings vanished with high wheeled bicycles that
threw the rider if a spoke broke and lashed about freely. Talcum in a
bicycle tire never had a reason, it has always been done in imitation
of automobiles, but even they don't use it anymore."


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## P-Quoddy (Oct 25, 2004)

Utah CragHopper said:


> Perhaps you would like to argue the point with Jobst Brandt. Why don't you
> give us your scientific reasons to talc your tubes, Mr. Wizard.
> 
> From Jobst Brandt:
> ...


Jobst has a problem of tripping over his own tail. I'd take his word for it if he'd provide data on vulcanication, such as specific temperature, and the effects of time, and rubber compound. You use cement, not a blowtorch, to patch a tube, so obviously there's more factors than just heat. 
Besides, as several people have pointed out, preventing vulcanization isn't the only reason to talc a tube. They do it to ease installation and prevent sections of the tube from getting pinched by the tire bead. 
Obviously, it's possible install tubes without it, but it's easier with it.


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## xcandrew (May 30, 2002)

P-Quoddy said:


> Jobst has a problem of tripping over his own tail. I'd take his word for it if he'd provide data on vulcanication, such as specific temperature, and the effects of time, and rubber compound. You use cement, not a blowtorch, to patch a tube, so obviously there's more factors than just heat.
> Besides, as several people have pointed out, preventing vulcanization isn't the only reason to talc a tube. They do it to ease installation and prevent sections of the tube from getting pinched by the tire bead.
> Obviously, it's possible install tubes without it, but it's easier with it.


Why does he need to provide data on vulcanization? I've never seen or heard of a tube so stuck in a tire that it would tear when pulled out and neither have you, I presume. Bike tire patches aren't really vulcanized onto the tube.

I've never had a problem pinching a tube while installing a tire. The tube is tucked into the tire, and if it sticks out a bit, push it back in, don't squeeze it between the tire and rim, that's all.


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## Ronsonic (Nov 11, 2004)

Utah CragHopper said:


> Perhaps you would like to argue the point with Jobst Brandt. Why don't you
> give us your scientific reasons to talc your tubes, Mr. Wizard.
> 
> From Jobst Brandt:
> ...



My scientific reason for talcing tubes is so they go together with the tire and wheel easier. Perhaps Jobst considers that outdated, but I'm the one putting my tires and tubes together so it really is up to me. It doesn't get more scientific than that, it doesn't need to.

Jobst has a bad habit of thinking that because HE doesn't understand a thing that there is no sense in it. 

Ron


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Ronsonic said:


> Jobst has a bad habit of thinking that because HE doesn't understand a thing that there is no sense in it.


Yeah, such a bad habit to think there should be a valid reason with a good scientific or
engineering explanation for doing something rather than relying on faith, tradition, voodoo, 
or goat entrails.


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## xcandrew (May 30, 2002)

Ronsonic said:


> Jobst has a bad habit of thinking that because HE doesn't understand a thing that there is no sense in it.
> 
> Ron


Jobst Brandt couldn't care less if you want to talc your tubes, so you can go along doing the same and no one will care. He doesn't read this forum anyway, so the unwarranted rips on him mean nothing and tell more about those ripping on him than anything than anything else. What he doesn't like is the myths spread around in the biking community. Just about every bike message board is full of them to a greater or lesser degree. I favor rec.bicycles.tech because there are plenty of people who see past the fluff and myths there, but other bike forums are entertaining in other ways...


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## P-Quoddy (Oct 25, 2004)

xcandrew said:


> Why does he need to provide data on vulcanization? I've never seen or heard of a tube so stuck in a tire that it would tear when pulled out and neither have you, I presume. Bike tire patches aren't really vulcanized onto the tube.
> 
> I've never had a problem pinching a tube while installing a tire. The tube is tucked into the tire, and if it sticks out a bit, push it back in, don't squeeze it between the tire and rim, that's all.


He needs to provide data because he presents his arguments as if their based on hard science, but he only provides vague abstract arguments saying a car tire gets hotter than a bike tire. By what? Two degrees? We've only been given his counter argument that doesn't even address the main reason for talcing a tube, which indicates he doesn't even understand the premise of the argument. 
The fact is that tubes can get pinched between the rim and tire bead, so you want to minimize the friction between the raw rubber tube, the tacky inside of the tire, and the metal rim. 
I've even found another benefit not mentioned. Sometimes when you install a tube, the valve gets cockeyed. After you're finished, you see the valve slanted, rubbing on one side of the valve hole. This happens through the process of working the final side of the tire bead onto the rim. If your rims valve hole isn't perfectly smooth, the slanted valve can rub against the sharp valve hole opening and cut the valve. 
If you talk the tube, the tube won't stick to the rim strip, so you can more easily shift the entire ture and tube, sliding it into alignment.


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## P-Quoddy (Oct 25, 2004)

Utah CragHopper said:


> Yeah, such a bad habit to think there should be a valid reason with a good scientific or
> engineering explanation for doing something rather than relying on faith, tradition, voodoo,
> or goat entrails.


This brings up another fault of Jobst. When experience and science counter his own rantings, his ego blinds him into continual denial. He's afraid that if he admits he's wrong, he'll 
throw away his entire reputation. It's a shame. He's provided good scientific explanations for plenty of bike problems. The world won't adandon his knowlege for a few errors. Nobody's perfect.


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## xcandrew (May 30, 2002)

But he is correct of course, and we all see the evidence. The evidence is that he, I, and no one else here, I presume, has ever seen a bike tube vulcanized onto the tire. That is hard evidence. If you have experienced otherwise, I would be very curious.

I can shift the entire tire/tube combo on my any of my rims to make the valve straight on my tires without any talc. The friction when trying to do that is between the tire bead and the rim, not the freshly installed tube and rimstrip.

If you have a problem with Jobst Brandt's assessment of a problem, don't complain about it here - it won't get you anywhere and you just seem like a whiner. Get a newsgroup account or use google groups and pose an inquiry at rec.bicycles.tech where you can debate him directly.


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## xcandrew (May 30, 2002)

P-Quoddy said:


> This brings up another fault of Jobst. When experience and science counter his own rantings, his ego blinds him into continual denial. He's afraid that if he admits he's wrong, he'll
> throw away his entire reputation. It's a shame. He's provided good scientific explanations for plenty of bike problems. The world won't adandon his knowlege for a few errors. Nobody's perfect.


I've seen him admit he that he is wrong about some things though I don't recall exactly what the issues were. He IS right on technical things the great great majority of the time. Most of the things that he defends with quick assessments are also pretty obvious to others of us with engineering backgrounds and don't really require much more "hard scientific evidence". 

You aren't "jim beam" or "tuxlover" are you?


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## Ronsonic (Nov 11, 2004)

*Reasonable people can disagree reasonably.*



Utah CragHopper said:


> Yeah, such a bad habit to think there should be a valid reason with a good scientific or
> engineering explanation for doing something rather than relying on faith, tradition, voodoo,
> or goat entrails.


Making an install easier is valid. Nothing he wrote that you quoted contradicted that. You did quote him blathering on about car tires and how they've got nothing to do with bike practice and you quote him most dismissively about tying spokes, as if that has anything whatever to do with this subject. Now you add your own noise about "faith, tradition, voodoo, or goat entrails" as if this assertion of association means anything to anyone. Bottom line all you've got here is rhetoric and damn off-putting at that.

Talcing tubes makes installing and removing them easier. I don't need more reason. It's a little messy, perhaps you need no more reason to not do so. But that's really all their is to it. 

That is the annoying part, this is nothing more than a very simple and reasonable difference of opinion and you (and your lord Jobst) act as if all who disagree are benighted savages sacrificing virgins and charting the influence of the planets. At worst I am wasting valuable talc reserves two grams at a time. At worst.

Ron


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## P-Quoddy (Oct 25, 2004)

xcandrew said:


> But he is correct of course, and we all see the evidence. The evidence is that he, I, and no one else here, I presume, has ever seen a bike tube vulcanized onto the tire. That is hard evidence. If you have experienced otherwise, I would be very curious.
> 
> I can shift the entire tire/tube combo on my any of my rims to make the valve straight on my tires without any talc. The friction when trying to do that is between the tire bead and the rim, not the freshly installed tube and rimstrip.
> 
> If you have a problem with Jobst Brandt's assessment of a problem, don't complain about it here - it won't get you anywhere and you just seem like a whiner. Get a newsgroup account or use google groups and pose an inquiry at rec.bicycles.tech where you can debate him directly.


Your right in the fact that there is friction between the bead and the rim. But it's not the only friction. The solution would be to put talk on the tire bead. 

I'm basing my opinion on personal experience, not someone else's opinion. If other people don't have the personal experience or can't learn from personal experience, and they have to base their argument on the fact that Brandt says so, they are opening up both Brandt's assessment, and they're reliance on Brandt's opinion to criticism.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Please somebody - KILL THIS THREAD!!


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## Ricky2 (Apr 7, 2004)

*Talcing helps to avoid pinch flats*

I talc the tubes before putting them into my tires. Basically, I just put some talc powder into a ziploc bag with a tube and shake. Take the tube out and install tube and tire onto rim. I heard somewhere that it prevents stickiness and helps to prevent pinch flats. I'm not 100% sold on that, but I talc anyway.

The bigger question is: Why do people continue to follow every last word and breath of Jobst Brandt. So what? He wrote a wheelbuilding book. It wasn't that great in my opinion. In any case, he's not like god. The guy has been wrong before.


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## saccycling (Sep 30, 2004)

*to be fair*

I had a michelin tracer on my front tire for 12,000 miles (which is about 2 and a half years of riding for me). The tire was fine, never had a flat. But I decided to change the tire. The tube was almost liked glued to the tire. I don't talc. This is the only time this has ever happened to me. I'm going on 25,000 miles of total bike riding. I do notice that some tubes come talc. and other don't. I just bought some performance tubes and theres no talc. But in the past I had to patch a flat and it was a real sob to clean of the talc.
Bikedirect recommends talcing, they claim it makes it easier to seat the tire


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