# wheel dishing...frame alignment



## argylesocks (Aug 2, 2004)

this summer, i got bumped in a little pile up. i didnt go down, it was on a climb...very slow, etc.. however, a broke a spoke on my rear Rolf wheel.

brought it in, had it replaced, thought everything was fine... 
during a training race, i got a bad shimmy on a 30mph desend... scared me..ALOT.

so i check my rear wheel and notice that
a) the wheel does not appear to be centered along my seat tube, and
b) my brakes need lateral adjustment when switching to my training wheels.

so then i became paranoid that my frame was out of alignment... back to the shop... they do a couple little tests and say, yeah, its a tad out, we could send it back to Litespeed, but they will probably say it is within tolerances, etc. they said that the training wheel was out of dish (the one that appears more centered).

so i kept riding it for a while... but i always have this alignment thought int the back of my head.... any time i feel "squirrelly" i think of the frame...

fast foward a few months...
i just picked up a new set of ksyrium's. put the rear wheel in, and it appears to line up almost perfect, just like the training wheel....(almost)

so the Rolf wheel appears to be about 1/16th off compaired to the other two sets...
based on the brakes, a ruler, and my eyeball.

is this common to have all your wheels just a tad different?? i asked another shop, and thier wrench said "sure, i have to adjust my brakes all the time depending on the wheel".

and also, if my frame is "a tad out" is that normal? i assume that frames are not 100% perfect, so i am wondering how much tolerances are there?

thanks
-j


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

*Centering (Dishing)*

It's really easy to check your wheels to see if the rim is off center. You can reverse the wheel on the bike and see if the rim moves over toward the other side. Or better still, reverse the wheel on a truing stand to see which way the rim moves relative to a caliper.
Or you can check the dish with a dishing tool.

Off-center rims are very common and relatively easy to fix. That should be part of any routine truing job.

Al


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Dish*

Per Al1943's comment, this most likely means that the Rolf wheel is not dished the same as the others. Flipping the wheel in the frame will tell you which wheel is correctly dished. Your "other wrench" apparently has wheels that are dished differently from one another. BTW, since there is only one correct dish (rim centered in the frame), when you have wheels that are different, at least one of them is not correctly dished. You should not have to recenter brakes when swapping wheels.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

*exactly...*



Kerry Irons said:


> You should not have to recenter brakes when swapping wheels.


unless your "mechanic" was somehow talking about a difference in rim width as being the reason for adjusting his brakes from wheel to wheel, he's a crappy wheel builder. or he's friends w/ a crappy wheel builder and doesn't know enough to dish his wheel. whatever the reason, as kerry says there is no way you should have to recenter your brakes when switching wheels.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

I had the same problem. Turned out the wheel was dished with the tire on at the LBS. To get true dish, it's best to remove the tire and tube, dish appropriately, then reinstall. After doing that, I didn't have any more shifting problems or brake alignment issues, and the chainline was correct. Measuring dish with the tire on is very difficult as most dishing tools will contact the tire and not the rim, and that's less than ideal, IMO.

FWIW: There was a post a few days (week???) ago that said the dish changed significantly when the tire was put on, deviating towards the drive side. The poster said to ignore it, because when you mount the bike, the dish corrects back. Mike Garcia at oddsandendos.com said that in his experience, this is not the case. If there is ANY change in dish when a tire is inflated, it should be only a few 1/1000''s of an inch. Any more than that indicates less than approrpriate spoke tension.

Mike recs all truing and dishing be done on a bare wheel. Tire inflation should have negligible effects.


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

*Cause and effect*



CoachRob said:


> I had the same problem. Turned out the wheel was dished with the tire on at the LBS. To get true dish, it's best to remove the tire and tube, dish appropriately, then reinstall. After doing that, I didn't have any more shifting problems or brake alignment issues, and the chainline was correct. Measuring dish with the tire on is very difficult as most dishing tools will contact the tire and not the rim, and that's less than ideal, IMO.


FYI, re-dishing your wheel had NO effect on your shifting or your chainline.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

CoachRob said:


> FWIW: There was a post a few days (week???) ago that said the dish changed significantly when the tire was put on, deviating towards the drive side. The poster said to ignore it, because when you mount the bike, the dish corrects back. Mike Garcia at oddsandendos.com said that in his experience, this is not the case. If there is ANY change in dish when a tire is inflated, it should be only a few 1/1000''s of an inch. Any more than that indicates less than approrpriate spoke tension.


That statement was made by me and actually went more like:

"When you pump the tire up you'll also notice the rear dish will *slightly* shift toward the drive side."

Do a measurement with several sets of rear road wheels of different build weight/durability and tire inflated to 100psi. You'll find typical drift is 0.2-0.3mm depending on how sturdy the build is. Normally this is well with-in the dish and lateral trueness tolerance for a commercial wheel builder. It doesn't mean however that it doesn't occur.

BTW, measurements were taken on wheels ranging from Mavic Cosmic Carbone factory wheels to lightweight hand built sets of 1368 grams. Drive-side spoke tension on the first was an average of 1350N and on the hand built wheels ranging from 1050-1100N. Measurements were taken with a calibrated DT Swiss Tensiometer.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

divve said:


> That statement was made by me and actually went more like:
> 
> "When you pump the tire up you'll also notice the rear dish will *slightly* shift toward the drive side."
> 
> Do a measurement with several sets of rear road wheels of different build weight/durability and tire inflated to 100psi. You'll find typical drift is 0.2-0.3mm depending on how sturdy the build is. Normally this is well with-in the dish and lateral trueness tolerance for a commercial wheel builder. It doesn't mean however that it doesn't occur.


Divve, then we are in agreement. The change is MINIMAL (slight) as both of us said. Sorry if I misquoted you (didn't name you BTW). The major point was that 1) to dish on a naked wheel and 2) any SIGNIFICANT changes indicates tension irregularities.

And that is also in agreement with Mike Garcia. Thanks for responding and providing your acutal quote. I couldn't find it in my search.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

*Are you nuts (and bolts) Eric?*



Eric_H said:


> FYI, re-dishing your wheel had NO effect on your shifting or your chainline.


Right, and guys go to "Hooters" for the food!

*Chainline is the relative alignment of the front chainrings with the rear cogs; it is the imaginary line connecting the center of the middle CR with the midline of the cogset. (Zinn, Art of Roadbike Maintenance, page. 86).*

What follows that statement is a complicated formula that relies on how the cogset relates to the midline of the bicycle's plane (axis). He uses "CLR" to denote the distance from the center of the plane of the bicycle to the centerline of the rear cogset. So, if it deviates too far out or in, this distance will be too large or too small, respectively.

And from Barnett, Ed. 5, page 27-1: *Chainline: The alignment between the rear cogset and the front chainring set.*

If your cogs are not aligned properly, then the RD (which is fixed to the frame via the derailleur hanger) will NOT line up properly. This forces RD adjust, which is exactly what happens when you change wheels and the dish is different. While the RD is lined up properly with the first (correctly) dished wheel, it CANNOT be lined up with the second INCORRECTLY dished wheel. It simply cannot be. Thus, you need to redial in your RD to work properly with the different wheels.

The two things that affect chainline are 1) the relative position of the front chainrings to the central plane and 2) the relative position of the cogset to the central plane. If EITHER is not correct, the chainline will be off. Dishing your wheel is a factor that relates the cogset to the central plane of the bike. If the cogs are too far right, it moves the chain's axis inward towards the larger cogs and vice versa. The chain should run parallel to the bike when placed between the two front CR's and run over the 5th cog of a 9-speed system or between the 5th and 6th cogs of a 10-speed system.

On the Parktool website, in the instructions on how to use their CLG-2 tool, which is used to adjust chainline, they state: *Rear Cogs to Front Rings- Effective Chainline
The CLG-2 Chain Line Gauge helps determine effective chainline of the front and rear gears. The tool references off the rear sprocket center and extends this line forward toward the front rings... If either the front or rear sprockets are either too much inward or outward relative to the other, there may be certain shifting problems.*

So, if the rear cogs are NOT in proper position, how can the tool attach to the rear sprocket and extend forward and fall into proper alignment with the front CR's???

I don't see how you can make that statement, unless perhaps you misread my comment?? Either Lennard Zinn, John Barnett, and Parktools are in error, or you misstated your position.

But let's look at some drawings and a Parktool website picture for even more graphic details to debunk your myth:


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## ekdave (Sep 6, 2002)

*Im with Eric, Chainline and Dish are NOT related.*

Chainline is changed by two things:
1. Bottom bracket position laterally (BB axle lateral position to be more exact - assuming non-integrated systems like new Dura Ace)
2. Lateral position of cogset in relation to frame.

Cogset position is set by the hub. Having an untrue or wrongly-dished wheel will not change how far your freehub body sits off of the frame.


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

*chainline has nothing to do with dishing...*

The chainline has nothing to do with the dishing of the wheel, because whatever the dish a wheel has, the hub will always be in the same place between the dropouts. you can dish a wheel an inch out to one side or the other, but the chainline for that wheel will not change. dishing a wheel is changing the alignment of the rim between the outer ends of the hub, not between the brake blocks or any other part of the frame.
in most frames the rim should sit exactly central between the hub ends, but there are some frames out there (i can only think of pace mountain bike frames at the moment) that have the dropouts unevenly spaced, so that the rim has to be between the flanges of the hub, making for a stronger wheel because the spoke tension is the same on each side.
there are some rims with off-set spoke holes (campag low-profile for example) that achieve something similar, reducing the difference between the spoke lengths.
the chainline is only different for different wheels because they have different hubs, freehubs or cassettes, all of which vary slightly between manufacturer. that´s why it´s always a good idea to have all you sets of wheels for one bike built with the same make of hubs and cassette (no realigning of rear mech each time you change wheel).

foz


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## Anti-gravity (Jul 16, 2004)

*Ummm, well, good attempt with the "scientific" references*



CoachRob said:


> Right, and guys go to "Hooters" for the food!
> 
> *Chainline is the relative alignment of the front chainrings with the rear cogs; it is the imaginary line connecting the center of the middle CR with the midline of the cogset. (Zinn, Art of Roadbike Maintenance, page. 86).*
> 
> ...


<p>I'm sorry to say Rob, but you are plain wrong about dish affecting chainline. Just think about it conceptually, no complicated equations. The hub is always fixed to the same point in the dropouts. The only way that the hub could be affecting chainline is if it's crooked in the dropouts (or the frame is somehow horribly out of alignment in the first place).<p> You are correct in saying that dish affects the relation of the hub to the rim, but when clamped into the frame you are now changing both the relation of the hub and frame together in relation to the rim.<p>I think you are overcomplicating the issue, the equations for chainline aren't complicated at all IMO, simple geometric measurements. Not rocket science. It just requires more equations than the average person is probably used to.<p> The only way to effectively adjust chainline is with the BB spindle length. Depending on how many speeds you're running in back, you may have some adjustment available in the hub. Also, the reason that derailleur adjustment is sometimes needed after swapping rear wheels is due to the fact that hubs can vary enough in hub or freehub spacing relative to the axle to affect this. Mostly a lack of stringent manufacturing tolerances which in actuality may be too hard to achieve (although I could be wrong about this).


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

*Okay...*



Anti-gravity said:


> <p>I'm sorry to say Rob, but you are plain wrong about dish affecting chainline. Just think about it conceptually, no complicated equations. The hub is always fixed to the same point in the dropouts. The only way that the hub could be affecting chainline is if it's crooked in the dropouts (or the frame is somehow horribly out of alignment in the first place).<p> You are correct in saying that dish affects the relation of the hub to the rim, but when clamped into the frame you are now changing both the relation of the hub and frame together in relation to the rim.<p>I think you are overcomplicating the issue, the equations for chainline aren't complicated at all IMO, simple geometric measurements. Not rocket science. It just requires more equations than the average person is probably used to.<p> The only way to effectively adjust chainline is with the BB spindle length. Depending on how many speeds you're running in back, you may have some adjustment available in the hub. Also, the reason that derailleur adjustment is sometimes needed after swapping rear wheels is due to the fact that hubs can vary enough in hub or freehub spacing relative to the axle to affect this. Mostly a lack of stringent manufacturing tolerances which in actuality may be too hard to achieve (although I could be wrong about this).


Now that you put it this way, I accept it A-g. The relationship between the rim and hub is certainly affected by dish, but the hub and dropouts is not. Spacers may throw it off, and in fact the DA 10-speed cassette came with an extra inner spacer for use with 9-speed hubs.

As for complicated, I don't find them to be, but they do require quite a few measurements, and exact ones at that, that most people are not very comfortable with. They don't bother me, but I am aware that they do fluster some people who don't take a liking for math.

On another note, where can I buy a depth gauge? There is the type that you extend a sliding-type ruler and it gives you a depth reading. I cannot find it anywhere on the net, but it would be very useful for measurements where I have to reach into something and get an accurate depth, such as from CR to seattube.


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

*I'm thinking clearly*



CoachRob said:


> I don't see how you can make that statement, unless perhaps you misread my comment?? Either Lennard Zinn, John Barnett, and Parktools are in error, or you misstated your position.


I think others have made the point about chainline and cog position staying static when wheel dish is altered, but I just want to suggest that before you go around cutting pasting text and images from various websites, give some thought first. And if you don't know the answer, don't reply.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Eric_H said:


> I think others have made the point about chainline and cog position staying static when wheel dish is altered, but I just want to suggest that before you go around cutting pasting text and images from various websites, give some thought first. And if you don't know the answer, don't reply.


Sorry about the error. But I drew both pictures, and the quotes weren't pasted, I typed them. Only the photo was pasted so I didn't skimp on the effort!!! 

As for why dishing helped me, and thus led to my confusion, was that I also noticed the axle was not aligned in that the amount protruding past the lock nuts was not equal on both sides. I corrected that problem by adjusting the lock nuts/cones simultaneous with the dishing. So, while I thought it was the dish correction, it must have been the correction of the axle w.r.t. the hub that made the difference. This corrected the cog placement and thus the RD alignment with them.

Again, sorry Eric. I can only try my best and accept corrections when they are pointed out.


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## argylesocks (Aug 2, 2004)

Eric_H said:


> I think others have made the point about chainline and cog position staying static when wheel dish is altered, but I just want to suggest that before you go around cutting pasting text and images from various websites, give some thought first. And if you don't know the answer, don't reply.


geez...little harsh, aren't we ???


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

*No problem*



CoachRob said:


> Sorry about the error. But I drew both pictures, and the quotes weren't pasted, I typed them. Only the photo was pasted so I didn't skimp on the effort!!!
> 
> As for why dishing helped me, and thus led to my confusion, was that I also noticed the axle was not aligned in that the amount protruding past the lock nuts was not equal on both sides. I corrected that problem by adjusting the lock nuts/cones simultaneous with the dishing. So, while I thought it was the dish correction, it must have been the correction of the axle w.r.t. the hub that made the difference. This corrected the cog placement and thus the RD alignment with them.
> 
> Again, sorry Eric. I can only try my best and accept corrections when they are pointed out.


Sorry for my reply earlier, it was on the harsh side.

Now, regarding your adjustment of the axle and the locknuts, this again will have had had no effect on your shifting or chainline. The reason is that when the hub is adjusted (I'm assuming Shimano here because from previous posts it seems as though you are a "S" guy) the outer edge of the locknut will be the same distance from the freehub body, regardless of whether the axle is perfectly centered on the locknuts. Therefore, the freehub and cogs will sit the same distance from the dropout even if the axle is not perfectly centered.

The only way this could have had an effect on chainline or shifting is if, for some reason, one of the small washers that sit between the cone and the locknut on the non-drive side was accidentally placed between the cone and locknut on the drive side. Then, the outer edge of the locknut would be further away from the cassette. But I rest on my statement that if all you did was move the axle laterally in the hub, the position of the freehub body with respect to the dropout did not change.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

CoachRob said:


> Divve, then we are in agreement. The change is MINIMAL (slight) as both of us said. Sorry if I misquoted you (didn't name you BTW). The major point was that 1) to dish on a naked wheel and 2) any SIGNIFICANT changes indicates tension irregularities.
> 
> And that is also in agreement with Mike Garcia. Thanks for responding and providing your acutal quote. I couldn't find it in my search.


A wheel can be properly dished with the tire on and inflated. It can be done on a truing stand, no dishing tool needed. Proper dish means the rim is centered between the dropouts.
Radial truing does require removing the tire and tube.

Al


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Eric_H said:


> Sorry for my reply earlier, it was on the harsh side.
> 
> Now, regarding your adjustment of the axle and the locknuts, this again will have had had no effect on your shifting or chainline. The reason is that when the hub is adjusted (I'm assuming Shimano here because from previous posts it seems as though you are a "S" guy) the outer edge of the locknut will be the same distance from the freehub body, regardless of whether the axle is perfectly centered on the locknuts. Therefore, the freehub and cogs will sit the same distance from the dropout even if the axle is not perfectly centered.
> 
> The only way this could have had an effect on chainline or shifting is if, for some reason, one of the small washers that sit between the cone and the locknut on the non-drive side was accidentally placed between the cone and locknut on the drive side. Then, the outer edge of the locknut would be further away from the cassette. But I rest on my statement that if all you did was move the axle laterally in the hub, the position of the freehub body with respect to the dropout did not change.


No offense taken. I have kids; nothing anybody says can beat the stuff I heard when they were little!

As for the locknut issue, I see your point. Then I don't know what I did that fixed the problem. I know I installed all the parts during reassembly. Maybe I was lucky???


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Al1943 said:


> A wheel can be properly dished with the tire on and inflated. It can be done on a truing stand, no dishing tool needed. Proper dish means the rim is centered between the dropouts. Radial truing does require removing the tire and tube.
> 
> Al


With the WAG-3 by Park, the ends rest on the two sides of the rim and measures the distance from the end of the axle. If you have the tire on, it now rests on the rubber tire and not the rim, so you are actually centering the hub with respect to the tire and not the rim. If the tire extends 2 mm past the edge of the right side of the rim and 4 mm past the left side, the WAG-3 will be off in it's measurement. That's why Park recommends you use the tool with just the rim. 

From their site: *It is necessary to remove the tire and quick release or axle nuts to use the WAG-3. The WAG-3 uses a threaded pointer. Hold the pointer just to the side of the axle, and adjust the end of the pointer so it is flush with the axle locknut face.*

With the WAG-4, they overcome the problem with rubber blocks that rest on the rim and don't touch the tire. So long as you are touching the rim and the tire doesn't interfere, you can dish a wheel.

You can also do it with a truing stand, but I don't think you will get the same accuracy as with a true dishing tool. Do a few mms matter with regard to dish? I guess that's for each person to decide.

I have seen people radially true a wheel with the tire on. By setting the lateral truing stand guide even with the outer edge of the rim, you can spin the wheel and look from the side and see whether the edge has peaks and valleys w.r.t. the lateral guide. This gets you pretty darned close.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

*True??*



CoachRob said:


> You can also do it with a truing stand, but I don't think you will get the same accuracy as with a true dishing tool. Do a few mms matter with regard to dish? I guess that's for each person to decide.
> 
> I have seen people radially true a wheel with the tire on. By setting the lateral truing stand guide even with the outer edge of the rim, you can spin the wheel and look from the side and see whether the edge has peaks and valleys w.r.t. the lateral guide. This gets you pretty darned close.


Few mm's?!! A few mm's is not true, not even close. With my Park TS-2 truing stand I can easily true laterally and radially to within a small fraction of one mm, same for rim centering (dishing) No way is a dishing tool more accurate. And "looking from the side" does not make a rim radially true.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Al1943 said:


> Few mm's?!! A few mm's is not true, not even close. With my Park TS-2 truing stand I can easily true laterally and radially to within a small fraction of one mm, same for rim centering (dishing) No way is a dishing tool more accurate. And "looking from the side" does not make a rim radially true.


Yes it does. Look from the side and set the gauge to touch the OUTER (not the side) rim edge. If the wheel is not radially true, the edge of the rim will move toward and away from the gauge. See the picture attached. If you see the rim move towards or away from the arrow (lateral gauge) it is not radially true. If it remains a constant distance, it IS radially true. My TS-8 (not as expensive as the TS-2 but useful for the home mechanic) has a notch cut out of the feeler for this purpose.

http://www.parktool.com/tools/TS_8.shtml

Heck, you can even do it on your bike by attaching a popsicle stick to the brake pad and aligning it with the rim edge. IMO, the easiest of all wheel issues to determine is radial true.

And I know the TS-2 is excellent at lateral and radial truing, as that is the professional standard tool for truing wheels. 

But while Park may be trying to sell more equipment, they write *For precision work, the TS-2 should be used with the WAG-4 Professional Wheel Alignment Gauge [for wheel dishing]...*

And again in their instructions for use, they discuss how the TS-2 can get out of center. They state *The TS-2 truing stand is adjusted at the factory to center the rim between the calipers. With use, the TS-2 can come out of center. For precision work, the TS-2 is intended to be used with a dishing tool, such as the Park Tool WAG-4 or WAG-3.*


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

CoachRob said:


> Yes it does. QUOTE]
> 
> My points were in answer to your comment about radial truing with the tire on, and about accuracy (or lack there of) to a "few" mm. Then your come back with a basic lesson in radial truing by setting the gauge to touch the outer edge of the rim, an operation that requires a bare rim, no tire or tube. Nice try.
> 
> ...


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Al1943 said:


> CoachRob said:
> 
> 
> > Yes it does. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

*Dishing on a TS-2*



CoachRob said:


> I have tried to dish my wheel using my LBS's TS-2 and found it didn't do the job as nicely as I desired. I find I can accept a wheel that is a few hairbredths out of radial true without any problem. But if the dish is off, then when swapping wheels, I have to adjust my brakes and that simply isn't what I consider acceptable. To me, I'd rather have spot-on dish for reasons of interchangeability.


You can achieve perfect dish with a TS-2 truing stand, it will take a little patience until you get the hang of it. Use an 8, 9, or 10-speed rear wheel (spaced 130mm). While truing laterally, reverse the wheel on the stand and check to see which way the rim moves with respect to the twin calipers. If the rim remains closer to the same caliper then the caliper arm needs to be adjusted laterally. This can be done with the two large nuts that hold the arm in place. When reversing the wheel on the stand if the rim moves toward the opposite caliper the rim is off-center (out of dish), and as you know, this can be corrected with spoke adjustments. Work the wheel and the caliper arm adjustments until the calipers have exactly the same drag on both sides of the rim with the wheel mounted and reversed either way. Then you know for certain that the caliper arm is centered on the stand and the rim is centered on the wheel. I recommend that on a TS-2 stand you do this only for a 130mm (or near 130mm) spaced wheel because at only that spacing are the uprights perpendicular to the wheel axle and the locknuts are flush to the uprights. For other stands YMMV.
I never need to adjust my brake calipers when changing wheels.

Al


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*shimmy question*



argylesocks said:


> this summer, i got bumped in a little pile up. i didnt go down, it was on a climb...very slow, etc.. however, a broke a spoke on my rear Rolf wheel.
> 
> brought it in, had it replaced, thought everything was fine...
> during a training race, i got a bad shimmy on a 30mph desend... scared me..ALOT.
> ...


Can you recall where your upper body was in relation to the headset during your descent? If so, was this the only time the wobble occurred?

Just curious.


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## curlybike (Jan 23, 2002)

CoachRob said:


> Now that you put it this way, I accept it A-g. The relationship between the rim and hub is certainly affected by dish, but the hub and dropouts is not. Spacers may throw it off, and in fact the DA 10-speed cassette came with an extra inner spacer for use with 9-speed hubs.
> 
> As for complicated, I don't find them to be, but they do require quite a few measurements, and exact ones at that, that most people are not very comfortable with. They don't bother me, but I am aware that they do fluster some people who don't take a liking for math.
> 
> On another note, where can I buy a depth gauge? There is the type that you extend a sliding-type ruler and it gives you a depth reading. I cannot find it anywhere on the net, but it would be very useful for measurements where I have to reach into something and get an accurate depth, such as from CR to seattube.



Try this link 
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PARTPG=NNLMK3&PMPXNO=1756824


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Thanks curly. That's what I was looking for! I just wish it were in mms rather than inches. Why can't the whole world chose EITHER metric or English? It would make things so much easier.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

I prefer to use the WAG-4 for dishing and the TS-2 for wheel work. It's more efficient and allows you to center the truing calipers regardless of hub spacing.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

I tend to agree. Have you tried dishing with the TS-2? Was it accurate when you checked it after with the WAG-4? Just wondering.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Once the TS-2 is calibrated it's indeed accurate. A separate dishing tool just does the job better. 

For instance, when I build a rear wheel I first dish the rim off center far to the drive-side and only at the very end of the build do I pull it over to the center. It allows you to easier work on a wheel before there's a ton of tension on the components. I also initially set the TS-2 up to work reasonably accurate while the dish is still off to the right. As I finalize the build I use the dishing tool to watch the progression of the rim to the left side and accurately set the truing stand.


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## Jamieshankland (Jan 8, 2005)

On a road bike its crucial to have good alignment, Never use the frame either to guage the dish. Ive seen $3000 road rigs out by alot. Get your wheel's to a 'whee guy' who will true it on a stand with a dishing tool. Then see if your frame needs work too. If you do wheel work make sure you use a dish tool because over time Stands can come out of alignment.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Jamieshankland said:


> If you do wheel work make sure you use a dish tool because over time Stands can come out of alignment.


Jamie,
That's been what I've been saying the whole time. However, Al says he is able to dish with his TS-2. He is an experienced wrench, so I have to believe it gives excellent results otherwise I doubt he would rely on this method.

I do own the WAG-3 and converted it to a WAG-4 by taping equal sized wooden blocks on the ends so that they now contact the rim without touching the tire, thus I can dish with the wheel on.

I agree, dish is important. The WAG-3 came included with my $26 Park TS-5, so it was a great deal on sale.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

CoachRob said:


> Jamie,
> That's been what I've been saying the whole time. However, Al says he is able to dish with his TS-2. He is an experienced wrench, so I have to believe it gives excellent results otherwise I doubt he would rely on this method.
> 
> I do own the WAG-3 and converted it to a WAG-4 by taping equal sized wooden blocks on the ends so that they now contact the rim without touching the tire, thus I can dish with the wheel on.
> ...


I'm afraid you and Jamie still don't understand. Yes a TS-2 stand can come out of alignment, but they can easily be put back into alignment. In fact I check the caliper arm alignment on my stand every time I use it. All you have to do is use your head and reverse the wheel on the stand often. If you want to use a dishing tool fine, but it's not necessary for a perfectly centered rim. If you can't figure that out I'm sorry, tell me what you don't understand and I'll try again to explain it again.

Al


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

*However, Al says he is able to dish with his TS-2. He is an experienced wrench, so I have to believe it gives excellent results otherwise I doubt he would rely on this method.*

What else can I say? I agree that the TS-2 can serve as a tool to dish a wheel. I can't say it any plainer. For others, we prefer a dishing tool. Either serves the purpose if used correctly.

I don't own a TS-2 and don't plan on it, so learning your method isn't somehting I need to master, but thank you for offering to explain it.


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## curlybike (Jan 23, 2002)

CoachRob said:


> Thanks curly. That's what I was looking for! I just wish it were in mms rather than inches. Why can't the whole world chose EITHER metric or English? It would make things so much easier.



I would imagine that Starrett would have a metrc scale(that is what a machinist calls a ruler) that would work, they probably make a similar tool in metric. $$$$ probably. I will look for a link to one.
Curly
http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/catalog/groups.asp?GrpTbl=2&GroupID=93&GrpTab=Spec


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