# Hill Climbing: Seated or Standing?



## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Which do you prefer or find speedier for steeper grades of moderate length, 10% or more of perhaps a half mile to a mile? Seated with a higher cadence, or standing, grimacing?


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

both... alternating


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## Incident (Nov 22, 2011)

I usually go with standing, I am able to generate more power and not run out of wind so fast.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

If I'm racing...seated the entire climb spinning as much as possible, but trying to stay with the peloton.

If I'm just out riding, I'll change it up depending on the grade.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

All of the above.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

10%? Probably standing.

The lighter you are the less extra energy is use when standing.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

I remember the general rule being big guys sit, smaller guys can stand more with less consequence. 

I generally stay seated and stand during crest attacks/surges. I also like keeping the RPM high to better respond to the small accelerations that happen throughout the climb, and to avoid unneccesary seated grinding if it slows up.

I race/ride with a compact-25, BTW. Training I stay mostly seated on climbs as well.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Well, the reason I ask is that we've got a pro rider (from Sport Bean) who occasionally meanders down from Cambridge and hits an area Cat 4 hill down the street from me. The hill is rather steep, with sections over 20% (right at the top, no less), and just under a mile in length. This guy's held the Strava KOM since 2010 with just over 4 minutes, and I've been busting my hide to knock him off his throne to no avail -- I've only been able to muster 4:24. 

Then he reared his ugly head again in November and shed a few seconds off. So now I've got to beat 3:56 to the top.

So I did the Strava comparison thing, and I'm watching my little dot in the lead for the first half of the climb ... and then I flame out and he soars ahead to the finish. I notice, also, that his cadence is rather high (usually over 100rpm). I'm usually standing; when I sit and spin I just don't feel like I'm going anywhere, and my legs burn out just as quickly it seems.

I'm just trying, I guess, to figure out the best technique to edge him out. I think it'll be a kick to see my ugly mug at the top of the leader board for a while.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Wood Devil said:


> I'm just trying, I guess, to figure out the best technique to edge him out. I think it'll be a kick to see my ugly mug at the top of the leader board for a while.


Part of your problem is there is no "One" best way to attack a hill...it varies depending in the riders ability. Just look at the pro peloton and the differences there at the top levels of riding. Some guys sit for the vast majority of the climb...others stand for the vast majority and others mix it up...To back this up go back and watch the difference between Armstrong and Ullrich. Granted Armstrong won the battles, but it's not like Ullrich was a slouch up the climbs either! Standing wouldn't have helped Ullrich because his body and muscle structure wasn't designed to climb out of the saddle like Armstrong's was.

As for trying to beat the guy up the hill...part of your problem sounds like pacing. You are hitting it too hard to begin with then dying as you get closer to the top. Try starting out a little slower so you have more energy left toward the top...staying seated and spinning will likely help here.

The other aspect is his VO2 max is likely better than yours, as is his w/kg...so regardless of how hard you try you may never be able to equal or beat his time...he's a pro for a reason


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## msg98 (Oct 27, 2011)

At 200lbs i should probably be sitting my ass down as much as possible then? 
I only bought a road bike 2 weeks ago and found that standing on hills is much more natural/easier for me. On MTB i almost always stay seated, but on road bike for some reason i feel much better standing up... even for long stretches. should I actively try to change this? thx


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Wookiebiker said:


> The other aspect is his VO2 max is likely better than yours, as is his w/kg...so regardless of how hard you try you may never be able to equal or beat his time...he's a pro for a reason


True. But I'm going to keep trying.

I may have a stroke in the process, but no one can say I went down with a whimper.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Weight range*



msg98 said:


> At 200lbs i should probably be sitting my ass down as much as possible then?
> I only bought a road bike 2 weeks ago and found that standing on hills is much more natural/easier for me. On MTB i almost always stay seated, but on road bike for some reason i feel much better standing up... even for long stretches. should I actively try to change this? thx


The rule of thumb on this is stand if you're under 140 lbs (64 kg) and sit if you're over 160 (73 kg) but of course there is more to it than just your weight. But there is no question that a heavier person has to put out more power to be standing.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

Could someone explain the math to me on why it is less efficient for a large rider to stand in comparison to a smaller rider? I have never seen it explained in depth. It seems to simply be a widely known "fact"


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

Personally I like to get off my bike and go for a good hill run. Its good enough for Grant.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

it's probably more of a myth.....

when you're standing, your legs are also supporting your weight regardless of how much you weigh. so you're also wasting energy....it's good for a quick sprint if you need it.

in addition to wasting energy, the pedal stroke isn't as smooth also

remember rule #5


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## 2wheelsonly (Mar 6, 2008)

Kerry Irons said:


> The rule of thumb on this is stand if you're under 140 lbs (64 kg) and sit if you're over 160 (73 kg) but of course there is more to it than just your weight. But there is no question that a heavier person has to put out more power to be standing.


Hmmm...so I guess someone weighing 150 should just walk the bike up?


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

tednugent said:


> it's probably more of a myth.....
> 
> when you're standing, your legs are also supporting your weight regardless of how much you weigh. so you're also wasting energy....it's good for a quick sprint if you need it.
> 
> ...


I can understand that the increased whole body movement would increase total oxygen utilization, but I dont think pedaling "smoothness" is really a huge factor (at least if a rider knows how to properly pedal out of the saddle). 

The technique I use, and it seems many smaller climbers utilize as well, is to "drop" my body weight onto the down stroke of the pedaling action and just before bottoming out to unweight the leg and transfer my body weight onto the other pedal. I dont really drive my leg down unless I am at an extremely high effort level. (at 150 pounds I am about 50/50 in/out of the saddle)

It seems that Contador uses a technique like this out of the saddle. He appears to be bouncing his weight from pedal to pedal, lightly supporting himself by the handlebars but not using his arms to apply much torque. 

From what I can see from race footage, smaller riders (and some middle weights) seem to utilize the above technique more frequently, whereas larger riders use their upper body to move the bike side to side (rather than shifting their weight) and more muscle strength/pressure on their legs while out of the saddle. 

Just something I have noticed.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

I wonder if it's more related to height? 

If two riders are the same weight and P/W ratio, but one is a foot taller, there would be more induced torque at body hinge points. Mainly at the support core muscles around the hip from bending forward. (just picturing a free body diagram in my head).

Just a thought. Because all those little climbers are short. Can't remember if Andy Schleck gets out of the saddle much?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Wood Devil said:


> -- I've only been able to muster 4:24.
> So now I've got to beat 3:56 to the top.


Which means you'll need to improve your 4-min power to weight ratio on climbs by ~13-14%.


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## jjcools (Jun 28, 2011)

I prefer out of the saddle but I think it does get my heart rate up higher than seated. I just don't have the stamina for sustained seated climbs. I think I learned this from my SS MTB time.


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## sneakyracer (Dec 1, 2007)

If all you want is to beat his Strava time then you need to attack the hill with full on standing sprints in places. Take it VERY easy going into the hill, right before the time for the hill starts counting try to accelerate a bit to enter the hill with good momentum. 4min is not that much to pound on it standing up but you still need good technique seating down. Also, lighten your load as much as possible (dump the water etc)


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

jjcools said:


> I prefer out of the saddle but I think it does get my heart rate up higher than seated. I just don't have the stamina for sustained seated climbs. I think I learned this from my SS MTB time.


SS MTB means you're nuts and badass at the same time.

I'm more the opposite....I'm seated as long as possible, unless the hill is so steep, that I need the extra oomph to get up, using what lungs I have left while in an asthma attack

out of the saddle climbing is different on MTB also, since we have to worry about traction also, what we do with our bodies is crucial for weight distribution so we don't wheelie over or spin the rear wheels have no traction to keep moving...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Even as a light guy, I tend to do most of my climbing seated. I mostly get out of the saddle for to accelerate or when the grade is very steep.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

I assume you are referring to the Blue Hills access road.

A pro is a pro – most amateurs won’t come close so I think you are doing quite well, and it’s definitely good to use his time to push yourself. You can chase the goal but I bet if the dude wants to and concentrates on it, he can smoke you even more. Under 4 minutes is already an amazingly good time for that road though. 

If you really want to crush his time, attach you measuring device to a motorcycle! Maybe I should change my screen name to Sneakyracer II.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

Not only are you using your energy to pedal, you're using it to hold your weight. More weight, more energy expended. Lighter dudes (and dudettes )have less weight to hold up.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

sneakyracer said:


> If all you want is to beat his Strava time then you need to attack the hill with full on standing sprints in places. Take it VERY easy going into the hill, right before the time for the hill starts counting try to accelerate a bit to enter the hill with good momentum. 4min is not that much to pound on it standing up but you still need good technique seating down. Also, lighten your load as much as possible (dump the water etc)


That's the tough part ... I have a few hills getting to the area, including a maniacal race up and down a interstate overpass. Hitting the hill itself, I have to slow for a sharp right turn, being careful not to wipe out in the sand at the base washed down by the rain, and then I attack the first steep portion. So I'm already a bit worn. And starting with no momentum.

Well, I'm heading out now to give it another shot.

It's cold, cloudy, and I'll be riding into a head wind. Should be fun.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

it's not going to happen overnight

train, train, train (see rule #5)

Velominati

you have a goal, hack away at a bit at a time


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I think most of those sit versus standing observations are for long climbs. For the 1 mile climb that you describe, I would sit and spin for the first 2-3 minutes and then finish with an all-out attack out of the saddle for the remainder. You said that the steeper 20% grades are toward the top and you will want to be out of the saddle for those to avoid losing large amounts of time.


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## Chico2000 (Jul 7, 2011)

I usually stay seated for a bit, then I pick a target (usually road sign) 50-100yrds away, I will pick-up speed for a second so I can shift to a bigger gear then I climb standing until I reach the target. Then I'll sit back down and go to an easier gear to get back to a higher cadence. I alternate this depending on the length of the climb.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Well, today's attempt was a failure -- legs weren't cooperating.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

BostonG said:


> I assume you are referring to the Blue Hills access road.
> 
> A pro is a pro – most amateurs won’t come close so I think you are doing quite well, and it’s definitely good to use his time to push yourself. You can chase the goal but I bet if the dude wants to and concentrates on it, he can smoke you even more. Under 4 minutes is already an amazingly good time for that road though.
> 
> If you really want to crush his time, attach you measuring device to a motorcycle! Maybe I should change my screen name to Sneakyracer II.


Yup, I'm talking Big Blue. Even on a good day it is excruciating. I remember about ten years ago when I used to go up and down that thing 10 times on my mountain bike; not sure of the times I was pulling off, but it seemed a heck of a lot easier back then.


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Which means you'll need to improve your 4-min power to weight ratio on climbs by ~13-14%.


Yeah, I was going to say that too. That's a pretty tall order without 1) losing weight and 2) doing some structured training.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Wood Devil said:


> Yup, I'm talking Big Blue. Even on a good day it is excruciating. I remember about ten years ago when I used to go up and down that thing 10 times on my mountain bike; not sure of the times I was pulling off, but it seemed a heck of a lot easier back then.


The gearing on the mtb probably made it easier for climbing. Road bikes see SRAM Apex 32T 

Just hack away at it a little at a time, setting yourself realistic goals.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Wood Devil said:


> Which do you prefer or find speedier for steeper grades of moderate length, 10% or more of perhaps a half mile to a mile? Seated with a higher cadence, or standing, grimacing?


All of the above.


On short hills (Less than a quarter mile) I like to stand. On longer hills I stay seated as long as possible and then near the top climb out of the saddle and try to punch it over the top. 

On hills longer than a mile I like to focus on my 'reverse breathing(?)': Forced exhale and passive inhale. I also focus on the 'scraping mud off my shoes' technique. Being a heel-dropper really helps with that.


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## matchmaker (Aug 15, 2009)

ukbloke said:


> I think most of those sit versus standing observations are for long climbs. For the 1 mile climb that you describe, I would sit and spin for the first 2-3 minutes and then finish with an all-out attack out of the saddle for the remainder. You said that the steeper 20% grades are toward the top and you will want to be out of the saddle for those to avoid losing large amounts of time.


This. A 1 mile climb is really not that long. I think if you observe the best pro rider to deal with this kind of obstacles it would be Philippe Gilbert. You will notice how he stays with the pack, seated, for about half to two-thirds of the climb and then he accelerates standing up.

Long climbs are a totally different issue. I have short climbs over here everywhere I go and I can power over them, although I have noticed that the lighter guys will usually follow me and break away on the crest, standing up. I did the Mont Ventoux in France this summer and there is no comparison with the shorter stuff. On a long climb you cannot take the risk to max out, you have to follow a rhythm you can keep for a long time (1 to 2 hours). For me, on long climbs, remaining seated is much more efficient than standing.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Also, we need to keep in mind that there are many variables going on. In an individual time trial, there are a few approaches. 

If you're in a road race, it's all about crossing the line first. Depends on the climb. Long climbs, short and steep climbs, climbs that are constantly changing gradient, etc. Each will suit some riders better than others. Do you simply set a tempo that discourages attacks and attack early? Keep attacking? Stay on some dude's wheels and attack the last 500m??


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## SevensRacer (Dec 14, 2011)

I began experimenting with standing on the pedals, as several cyclists that have passed me on the hills have all been standing on the pedals.

On the typical, 17-mile bike ride I exercise on several times a week, I now usually finish in the 1hr, 15-16 min range. I began experimenting with standing on the pedals on the hills and my average time slipped to the 1hr, 19-20 min range. 

I will probably stick to sitting on the saddle and stand on shorter, steeper sections.


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## jtyy (Sep 28, 2011)

Both, I tried going up every hill standing, but by the 3rd or 4 th short hill, the lactic acid accumulation in my thighs are great enough to slow me significantly amongst the peloton. I still think spinning at a high cadence is one of the best ways to save your legs though u will be slightly slower.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Wood Devil said:


> Well, today's attempt was a failure -- legs weren't cooperating.


dude, the guy is a pro with Jelly Belly. Seated or standing, he is on a whole different level - he can get 2,000 VAM on a 3-minute climb - very few people can do that.
I would say the best strategy for getting under 4 minutes is picking favorable (strong) tail-wind conditions, and/or having a pacer/leadout man for the first 2-3 minutes at least, better yet ride in a pack.


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## GotCat6 (Dec 11, 2011)

alternating b/w seated and standing positions allows you to engage slightly different muscle groups, which of course increases endurance during the climb.


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## SevensRacer (Dec 14, 2011)

I did my usual, 17-mile ride today, only this time, no standing on the pedals (Plus, I stayed on the drops on some of the harder sections). I was able to beat my best time by about a minute (1hr 14min vs 1hr 15). 

After these several trials, I'll have to agree with Sheldon Brown, that while standing can give a small boost, in the longer run, it will kill your energy. (Can't post link, as I have less than 10 posts - please check his section on "standing")


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