# knee pain / stack height / q factor?



## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

yes, i'm still a total newb. weather in KC is slowly getting warmer, but under the seasonal average so far this year. haven't done as much riding as i wanted to so far.

okay....
- got my pedals (shimano 105s) put on, bought a pair of Bontrager RL shoes.
- shop put the cleats on, quick intro how to click in/out. didn't really align them as anally as i would've, i'm finding out, they're off a little bit.
- now my right knee hurts on the inside.

what i think is going on.
- i now feel pigeon toed with that leg/foot when clipped in. 
- this is causing me to try and twist my right foot to what i feel is "normal" (i'm bringing my heal inward toward the cranks as well). 
- i run out of float, it puts pressure on the inside of my right knee (and then on the outside edge of my foot in the shoe, due to the twisting).
- the "q factor" is much narrower than i was use to with old school platform pedals and my tennis shoes, probably by about 3/4" on each side (right/left).

shop owner said i should start with cleats all the way back, but his mechanic put it all together (i trust both, very helpful guys, love my shop - i just don't get to hang out there like a lot of people do). was looking at my cleats this morning, they don't match up "exactly" and i can see why the right feels like i'm pigeon toed. seems to me like i should be able to easily loosen the bolts, adjust cleat position, and try 'em out.
the inside of my forefoot (widest part) can touch the crank arm if i try... should my shoe be that close to the crank arm while pedaling - i'm talking a millimeter or two in space?

also, is there a way to get spacers so i can expand my "q factor", i think the pedals placement is too narrow now. <--- may just hold off on that until i get my shoes/cleats adjusted to where it doesn't feel like i'm twisting my feet/knee just to get a comfy angle.
i'm attempting to get a straight stroke of the leg, no wobbling, etc.

stack height? with the pedals/cleats now on there, did that little bit of increase in height have a big enough affect on my fit that it could cause pain in my left knee (behind the kneecap) on shorter rides of 10 - 12 miles? or is it a combo of change in fit, narrower q-factor? <-- i'm thinking it is.

this has got me a tiny bit worried, i have a hard time finding shoes that fit my wide/square shaped feet. hoping the shoes i bought aren't a half size too big and that it's just the angle of the cleats cause the pain in my knee and pressure on the outside of my foot (the shoes are plenty wide enough, but the constant twist/pressure is the problem).

thanks in advance for any insight.
i'm planning on putting the bike on my trainer tonight, adjusting my cleats, and seeing how that feels before i head to the shop (don't have a bike rack, don't want my bike laying on it's side in my truck in the rain) if i can't get a good feeling. i know that's what they get paid to do, and may do it anyway saturday when i have time if i can't remedy some of this myself.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Poorly adjusted cleats can tear up your knees. It is OK if the heel of your shoe is about 1mm away from the crank. 
From my experience, start with the cleat just behind the ball of the foot, but not all the way back. Make sure that when you're pedalling around, you can easily feel that your foot pivots freely between the limits of the float. If you're hitting one end of the float, then you need to adjust it. 
Stack heigth can effect fit, but usually not enough to cause pain. Unless, your current seat is right at the limit of where it should be. 
You can adjust the Q factor out, about 1mm each side with washers, or moreso with extenders in extreme cases. 
If you bought the shoes and pedals at the shop, they should fit you, and either provide or sell shims to correct the angle of your foot if necessary.

I hope you get rid of the pain, not a fun thing!


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## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

thanks, Peanya.

just got home and adjusted the cleat position on the shoes. more adjustment than i thought it had. moved it back a bit and in (so my feet would be farther from the crank).

it's not my heel that is 1 mm from the crank, it's the widest part of my foot (balls of my feet), right above the cleat. i just adjusted that, which now gives me a few more mm space, angled it so i'm not pigeon toed...

yes, i was always running out of float, actually was riding hard against the float the entire time...

will have to give my knee some rest time, but just light spinning on the trainer just now felt way better.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

From what you've offered here, I think it's safe to say that your LBS dropped the ball on your cleat set up. 

Initial cleat set up should be fairly neutral, meaning that straight ahead is the approximate middle of float and side to side motion should be adjusted allowing for slight left/ right movement. This allows for some movement during the pedal stroke, if needed. Next, you should have q-factor set so that you can see part of the pedal spindle between the side of the shoes and crank arms. Most cleats have some side to side 'play', so this should be easy to set. If I understood correctly, my experiences mirror Peanya's on setting cleat fore/ aft so that ball of foot is slightly ahead of pedal spindle.

Lastly, your posterior knee pain is likely caused by a saddle set too high, so drop it a few mm's and try it on your next ride. Repeat as necessary, but remember that as you lower it, you're moving it slightly forward. If you think your LBS only raised it without adjusting fore/ aft, don't reset the rail adjustment as you lower it, otherwise you'll change reach. 

HTH...


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## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

i think it was a combo of things. 
first, this is my first foray into clipless pedals and road shoes. i knew of "float" but didn't know where i should run into the end of the shoes movement... basically, i didn't know what i didn't know and how it _should_ feel.
and, they should've taken a little more time ensuring it was comfy for me. i don't know if i gave off the vibe that i was in a hurry or whatever, maybe i did. maybe i gave off the vibe that i knew what i was doing.

either way, making progress.

PJ, i hadn't had this knee pain before the shoes/pedal combo being installed.
yes, they adjusted the seat fore/aft during my fitting. 
we'll see how it goes on my next ride.
thanks for the info, as i was thinking maybe the seat was too low... 
the LBS does allow me to come in for fitting adjustments, so if i can, i'll swing by either Saturday or next week (will hopefully be able to ride tomorrow or Saturday to find out how the adjustments fare).


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

GumbyN said:


> i think it was a combo of things.
> first, this is my first foray into clipless pedals and road shoes. i knew of "float" but didn't know where i should run into the end of the shoes movement... basically, i didn't know what i didn't know and how it _should_ feel.
> and, they should've taken a little more time ensuring it was comfy for me. i don't know if i gave off the vibe that i was in a hurry or whatever, maybe i did. maybe i gave off the vibe that i knew what i was doing.
> 
> ...


I definitely think you've made some progress, and have learned a fair amount in the short time you've had this set up.

With posterior knee pain, you saddle is too high and it _may_ be positioned too far back, thus my question about rail adjustment. I would drop the saddle height 3-4mm's _without _adjusting the fore/aft just yet. If the height adjustment is small, you may not have to mess with the other adjustment. And if you find that you do, ask the LBS fitter to lend a hand, but watch carefully as he does.  

Here are a couple of links you may find useful:
http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

http://www.jimlangley.net/crank/bikefit.html


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## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

thanks a ton for ALL the insight since my first post here, you've been the most helpful poster in the newbie area... <-- i read a lot of the newb posts.

i'll work on seat height and won't adjust fore/aft. hopefully the KC weather cooperates with me tomorrow after work.
yesterdays ride was only 12 miles, but about the first 7-8 were into a headwind doing about 6 or 7 mph. the last 4+ were straight line rolling hills directly back home, i had to be averaging over 20 mph even going uphill (topped at 43, was doing 22 uphill at one point thanks to the wind).... my avg speed on the ride was 11 mph?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

GumbyN said:


> ...my avg speed on the ride was 11 mph?


Wind can beat up most any rider, so I wouldn't fixate on speed (average or otherwise) right now. It's more important to work on anticipating gear changes and varying cadence with conditions/ terrain. As you've seen with your cleat set up, a smooth, consistent pedal stroke is pretty important, and will contribute to your building strength/ endurance. With more saddle time, of course.

And don't forget to enjoy the scenery along the way. Cycling is supposed to be fun, after all. :thumbsup:


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## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

oh, having a blast. there's a couple large red-tailed hawks that swoop down at me... that time, it was just chillin' on a wire watching me go by.

i've been keeping my cadence between 80-90. not really too concerned about my avg speed, just that it's funny that i can haul ass for 4 miles of the ride, way over 20 mph only to have an 11 mph avg due to the first 4.


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## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

cool, just got back from my ride. this is the route and, the stats from the ride (or as many as i can input on mapmyride).

so, the right knee feels better. i concentrated on smooth circles and only got out of line when the wind almost blew me off the road.
there was still a tiny bit of float left over when i was my leg was pedaling in a straight line - of course, 4.5* doesn't feel like much anyway.

i noticed today, while stretching my knee at work, that when i bend at the knees (feet about where i think the pedals are), my right knee bends inward a little bit, not directly down over my foot. could be a side effect of knee surgery due to a football injury when younger...

anyway, today, just as windy (if not more), i didn't really feel "into it" at the start, and i beat my time from Wednesday?? almost identical routes, took 10 minutes off my time and didn't try as hard as the last time out. 

thanks for the info guys. and i finally took a couple camera phone pictures of the bike leaning against' the garage door. 
hopefully you all can see how cool the gold lettering next to the cf looks.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Nice bike... I _really_ like that paint scheme.

Sounds like you're on the right track with cleat set up. My advice is to leave things as they are for awhile, because more changes can muddle the picture to the point of not knowing what changes caused what fit issues. If any (changes) are needed, keep them small and note starting points in case you have to reset them.

RE: your knee movement when bending: I'm no dr, but I don't think doing so simulates what goes on during your pedal stroke. As mentioned, if you're feeling better on the bike and riding relatively pain free, go with status quo and enjoy the ride...


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## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

why is it that when i'm done riding, and the following day, my legs don't even feel like i went for a ride?
so far, the only thing that has been holding me back has been feet going asleep before i got pedal/shoe combo, and now the knee pain. my left knee, about 10 miles into it, starts to get a little sore behind the kneecap, although on my longest ride, wasn't a big problem.

starting to think my shoes are a half size too big, unfortunately the local shop has limited selection. i'm thinking of trying to snag some shoes off bonktown (like the Bonts i had in my cart yesterday) and taking advantage of their return policy.

i guess once the weather stays consistently warm/sunny, i'll be able to stretch it out a little bit and see just how far i can go before my legs feel it. i need to start standing up longer and hitting the hills a little hard, i guess.

is this what i've read about, getting the "fit" dialed in? contact points are probably the most important, and with my trouble with shoes, figured it would be an issue anyway. haven't had issues with the seat, but only went on that 18 mile ride once.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

GumbyN said:


> why is it that when i'm done riding, and the following day, my legs don't even feel like i went for a ride?
> so far, the only thing that has been holding me back has been feet going asleep before i got pedal/shoe combo, and now the knee pain. my left knee, about 10 miles into it, starts to get a little sore behind the kneecap, although on my longest ride, wasn't a big problem.
> 
> starting to think my shoes are a half size too big, unfortunately the local shop has limited selection. i'm thinking of trying to snag some shoes off bonktown (like the Bonts i had in my cart yesterday) and taking advantage of their return policy.
> ...


I don't think cyclists need to ride until their body feels fatigued to know they went for a 'real ride'. IMO/E consistency is key, and it's important to keep in tune with how we feel to avoid overuse injuries. That's not to say there's no value in notching up your efforts, just up the duration and intensity incrementally. 

RE: the left (posterior) knee pain. Keep tweaking saddle height (down) a couple of mm's at a time until the pain subsides. As discussed earlier, excessive saddle setback can contribute, but I'd try the height adjustment first.

My basic attitude about cycling gear is not too tight, not too loose, so be careful of getting shoes that are noticably tighter than what you now have. If, as you pedal, you don't feel your heel slipping, you might have as close to a good fit as you're going to get - at least with that make/ model. OTOH if the store has a solid return policy and all you'll pay is shipping to satisfy your curiosity, then go for the smaller pair.

Until you get your fit issues squared away (or as we say and you picked up on 'dialed in'), I suggest keeping your efforts moderate. "Standing more" and "hitting the hills a little hard" while you're experiencing knee discomfort might just exacerbate the problem.


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## GumbyN (Dec 6, 2010)

points taken.
just odd that while on my MTB/trainer combo, i could hit it pretty hard and my legs would get a really good pump in 30-45 minutes, and knees would be fine. was my legs that would give before i was actually "tired". now, my aerobic capacity is lacking (which i knew, cuz i'm out of shape and why i'm riding a bike) and my legs don't feel a thing. just odd.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

GumbyN said:


> points taken.
> just odd that while on my MTB/trainer combo, i could hit it pretty hard and my legs would get a really good pump in 30-45 minutes, and knees would be fine. was my legs that would give before i was actually "tired". now, my aerobic capacity is lacking (which i knew, cuz i'm out of shape and why i'm riding a bike) and my legs don't feel a thing. just odd.


Personally, I find 'trainer' miles much more grueling than 'on the road' miles, so it could be that your time on the trainer worked your muscle groups to the point that your time on the road doesn't tax them. And you're still acclimating to road riding, so give yourself some time to dial in fit, up your efforts out on the road and build cardio fitness.

Relax. Give it some time. You've only just begun....


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