# Any NON tubeless-ready 700c, 23mm rims out there?



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

If they exist, can we get a list going of 700c, 622, 23+mm wide NON tubeless-ready rims?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

H Plus Son Archetype isn't marketed as such...then again any rim can be turned tubeless. The reg Hed Belgium (non-plus) isn't marked for tubeless from the get go either.

Any particular reason for non-tubeless ready? The center-fluting of tubeless compatible rims makes mounting any old tire easier if you use good tire mounting technique.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Marc said:


> Any particular reason for non-tubeless ready? The center-fluting of tubeless compatible rims makes mounting any old tire easier if you use good tire mounting technique.


Yes, there is a good reason why I ask Marc. And by the way - I'm fully aware of all the techniques for R&R'ing tires. On my "normal" rims I haven't used a tire lever in years.

I have some tubeless-ready rims (wheels) here and doing tire removal tests today with both old and new tires, with and without levers, it left my hands red and sore with struggle. I stopped short of skin-removal.

IMO, there is no reason to use "tublesss ready" rims with non-tubeless tires. I don't see any benefit and the definite downside is much harder tire removal - which for me is unacceptable. I have NO idea how a woman, a weaker male than me, or one with less tire R&R skills and experience, would ever get these tires off to insert a new tube.

And yes, lube of some form would make the job easier but that is hardly possible out on the road.

Hence, the request for known non tubeless-ready 23+mm rims. I'll list them on my site.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

HED plus rims are marketed as "tubeless ready", but only because of having a larger lip to catch the bead. They still have holes to where the spokes/nipples are installed conventionally. They require Stans type rim tape to be used as tubeless. 

Why the aversion to tubeless ready? Okay, I saw your response to Marc.

I will tell you that I HATED trying to mount tubeless on DuraAce wheels, even with a lever. The HEDs are another story. I mounted Hutchenson Fusion III tubeless on them with no lever. I was shocked...and pleased. In fact I cut a tire last Saturday and had to install a tube on the side of the road. Yes, I did use a lever as it was cold and wet, but it was easy. Yes, HED's are not cheap, but they can be viewed as conventional for tire mounting purposes.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> HED - I mounted Hutchenson Fusion III tubeless on them with no lever. I was shocked...and pleased. In fact I cut a tire last Saturday and had to install a tube on the side of the road. Yes, I did use a lever as it was cold and wet, but it was easy. Yes, HED's are not cheap, but they can be viewed as conventional for tire mounting purposes.


Thanks BCH. Two questions -

1. Have you tried a non tubeless tire on those rims (for non lever fit performance)?
2. Do you think they should be on a list of "23+mm non-tubless" rims?

If I can get your answers and (even better still) someone else's confirmation of your findings, I'll modify my OP to list them and put them on my site.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

I have some Yoeleo 23mm wide carbon/aluminium rims that are non-tubeless-ready, but it was really hard fitting tyres (Michelin Pro Optimum) - I had to use a lever for one of them. On the other hand, it was relatively easy to mount tyres (Vittoria Voyager Hyper) to the tubeless-ready Velocity A23 without a lever.

I don't like it if they are too easy to fit/remove though, because the tyres are then more likely to roll off the rims in the event of a puncture, which is potentially dangerous.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

The November Rail 52 and 34 rims aren't marketed as tubeless ready. They can be converted to run it, but they won't straight out of the assembly line.

Width at brake track: 25 mm
Width internally: 18 mm


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

I haven't managed to source any tubeless rims yet. Perhaps the next ones I buy.

In theory you just drop one bead down into the groove, and the tire should come off easily. However, in practice, you likely have two layers of tube in the groove too, which could make the tubeless ready more difficult to remove when used with tubes especially thick butyl tubes.

Rims:
Velocity Aerohead & Aerohead OC (20mm wide), all rims are designed for use with tubes. Apparently discontinued, and stock is dwindling.

Velocity A23 & A23 OC (23mm), Old stock may be non tubeless, new US Stock is tubeless. 

Velocity, Australian Made, I believe at least some of the Australian Velocity rims that are showing up in the USA are tube type. 

Unfortunately, at least with Velocity, They are replacing the tube-type rims with tubeless rims using the same models and designations without noting the change. Some vendors post profile diagrams, but one can't trust it to be accurate.


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## rm -rf (Feb 27, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Yes, there is a good reason why I ask Marc. And by the way - I'm fully aware of all the techniques for R&R'ing tires. On my "normal" rims I haven't used a tire lever in years.
> 
> I have some tubeless-ready rims (wheels) here and doing tire removal tests today with both old and new tires, with and without levers, it left my hands red and sore with struggle. I stopped short of skin-removal.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm don't know the term "R&R". Is it "Remove and Replace" ?

I have HED Ardennes Plus rims, "tubeless ready". They are *way *easier to mount my 23c GP4000S tires than my old regular width, non-tubeless Kinlin 30 rims were.

When I first got the Kinlins, I had *sore fingers and two mangled levers* after a *long struggle *to mount a tire. I wondered if I would need a big steel tire lever or something similar out on the road!

But, I found an easy way to mount the (folding bead) tires, using just one lever and very little force on the lever. The key is to just lift less than an inch at a time, slide the lever over, and repeat. It's fast and easy.

The Kinlins have a very shallow center well, so that makes it very hard to get the bead over the edge of the rim. Even with just one bead mounted, down in the center of the well with no tube yet, I can't slide the tire around the rim to match the label with the valve hole. Very tight.
It takes two levers to get the tire off the rim, and one lever to mount it.

~~~~~

On the HED rim, I did use a tire lever, but it was very easy, and I could probably do it with fingers only. (I'm not used to trying without a lever.)

The beads "pop" into the rim as the tube is inflated, when they kind of lock into the side of the rim. And they are held there even with the tube deflated. But it's easy to pop them loose with light thumb pressure so they can drop down into the center of the rim. And the center well is wide and deep, which helps to get the bead over the edge of the rim.

The tube fits up in the tire, away from the beads. In fact, the first time I deflated the new tires after getting them from the shop, I didn't see the tube at first, and thought the shop might have mounted them tubeless! And HED has light blue rim tape, so it's easy to check for pinched tubes. I never liked black rim tapes.

I got a rear puncture flat this week, and both beads stayed locked into the rim. I could ride the bike slowly with no air, and the tire stayed in place, folded flat to each side of the rim. I only tried it for a hundred yards or so. I'll have to try an old worn out tire some day to see if it'll stay on while riding it flat.


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't think anyone has mentioned the Flo30. And I spent about an hour last night trying to wrestle a Kenda Slant 6 onto a Stan's Crest. Holy crap what a battle.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

skinewmexico said:


> I don't think anyone has mentioned the Flo30. And I spent about an hour last night trying to wrestle a Kenda Slant 6 onto a Stan's Crest. Holy crap what a battle.





> Another very common request was to make the wheels tubeless ready. Tubeless road options are quickly picking up steam. If you have a keen eye you will notice that the profile of the FLO 30 above has a tubeless ready design. All of the FLO 30's will come tubeless ready


Flo Cycling Blog: FLO Cycling - The FLO 30 (previously the FLO Climber)


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

Oops. My bad. If I had known that, I would have set mine up tubeless.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I think the operative characteristic is the depth of the trough between the hooks of the rim. Tubeless rims may have shelves just inside the hooks to help initial inflate and bead retention, but still have the trough in the center. If the trough is deep enough, tire installation will be easy, provided the bead is kept in the trough while getting the last bit over the rim. FWIW, I have pre tubeless-ready HED C2s and Pacenti SL23s and find them to be equally easy/hard to mount tires on. I'm not saying their easy or hard, just equal in that regard, and one is tubeless ready and the other isn't.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Mike,

I have not directly tried non-tubeless tires on the HED rims. However, I have mounted tubeless and non-tubeless on the Dura-Ace 7801 Rims. The tubeless tires were MUCH harder to mount. I have mounted those exact tubeless tires on the HED rims with no problem. I would therefore expect the non-tubeless to mount even easier.

I find the 25mm width of the HED plus rim to be a benefit whether running tubed or tubeless and thus should not be excluded just because they market them as being tubeless ready. (I judge that by running a tube in a tubeless tire twice, once to to rim tape failure and once due to a cut in the tire)

I can tell you it is harder to mount standard tires on my Rolf Prima Elans than it is to mount tubeless on the HED Plus. 

If the standard is being able to change a flat on the side of the road without tools, add HED to the list.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Thanks BCH. Two questions -
> 
> 1. Have you tried a non tubeless tire on those rims (for non lever fit performance)?
> 2. Do you think they should be on a list of "23+mm non-tubless" rims?
> ...


I have used tubeless (Hutchinson) and non-tubeless tires on my HED Ardennes Plus LT wheels/rims (25mm width). No issues mounting either type of tire.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rm -rf said:


> I have HED Ardennes Plus rims, "tubeless ready". They are *way *easier to mount my 23c GP4000S tires than my old regular width, non-tubeless Kinlin 30 rims were.


Duly noted. Many thanks.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> If the standard is being able to change a flat on the side of the road without tools, add HED to the list.


Yep that's my standard. I can do it with my two current rims in use - Mavic OP and BWW Blackset Race. It's just that they are "narrow" rims and I want to list 23mm rims that don't need tools and/or Incredible Hulk strength**. Many thanks BCH for your definitive statement.

**Lots of people (me included) don't need rims built for tubeless tires. And most wide rims seem to be very hard to get tires on & off due to their "tubeless ready" quality.

I've said it before - even to BWW's Chris - I want his Blackset Race rim duplicated in 23mm width.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

GRAVELBIKE said:


> I have used tubeless (Hutchinson) and non-tubeless tires on my HED Ardennes Plus LT wheels/rims (25mm width). No issues mounting either type of tire.


That's 3 votes so far for HED rims. Thanks Gravelbike.


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## Richard L (Jun 16, 2014)

Here's an option.

Compass Bicycles: Rims


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

looigi said:


> I think the operative characteristic is the depth of the trough between the hooks of the rim. Tubeless rims may have shelves just inside the hooks to help initial inflate and bead retention, but still have the trough in the center. If the trough is deep enough, tire installation will be easy, provided the bead is kept in the trough while getting the last bit over the rim. FWIW, *I have pre tubeless-ready HED C2s and Pacenti SL23s and find them to be equally easy/hard to mount tires on. I'm not saying their easy or hard, just equal in that regard, and one is tubeless ready and the other isn't.*


I'm suprised to hear that. I have the pre-tubeless ready C2's also and would definitely put them in the 'easy' camp. So much so that I was worried perhaps the tires weren't tight enough (I'm talking REALLY easy to get tires on) but I've got about 8K on them with not problems so no need for concern.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> IMO, there is no reason to use "tublesss ready" rims with non-tubeless tires. I don't see any benefit and the definite downside is much harder tire removal - which for me is unacceptable.


I'll bite here with a simple one word answer: choice. Many people are on the fence about going tubeless, and for those of us who don't want or can't afford multiple wheelsets, tubeless ready wheels give you that option to take the plunge. I for one ran tubed clinchers on my Velocity A23 wheels for six months before switching over to tubeless. FWIW I never had any hassles mounting tubed or tubeless tires on those rims.

I suppose one could run tubeless tires on non-tubeless rims. But this compromises one of tubeless wheels biggest safety points IMHO- and that is for the tire to remain seated in the rim when a flat occurs. And there are many reports of some tubeless tires outright blowing off non-tubeless rims shortly after mounting. YMMV


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## morgan1819 (Nov 22, 2005)

I can't imagine BWW ever sourcing a wide rim, after reading some of the negative thoughts/comments their management had about wider rims. 

They came down pretty hard on anyone who "thought" they felt any improvement with a 23mm or 25mm rim. I remember the thread well.


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## rlrj (Nov 17, 2005)

That's the reason I got rid of a set of tubeless rims,(pacenti) that I talked about in other threads. I'm running H Plus Son Archetype rims on 1 bike and BWW pure race rims on another bike and a winter set kinlin 270 rims. The H Plus are the only 23mm rims and I have had no trouble at all mounting or changing tires with my hands only and all my skin is intact after doing so. Of course the other 2 sets of rims are easy but they are not 23mm wide like you were asking about. Can't say the same about pacenti's even with proper technique.


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

rlrj said:


> That's the reason I got rid of a set of tubeless rims,(pacenti) that I talked about in other threads. I'm running H Plus Son Archetype rims on 1 bike and BWW pure race rims on another bike and a winter set kinlin 270 rims. The H Plus are the only 23mm rims and I have had no trouble at all mounting or changing tires with my hands only and all my skin is intact after doing so. Of course the other 2 sets of rims are easy but they are not 23mm wide like you were asking about. Can't say the same about pacenti's even with proper technique.


I have no problems at all mounting and dismounting tires on my Pacenti SL23's (Vittoria Open Corsa / Michelin Pro 4) I use 2 layers of Stans, make sure the bead is in the center of the rim and finish at the valve stem. Its easy...no tools required!


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## rlrj (Nov 17, 2005)

Yes I did all the correct procedures of mounting tires and all the other tricks (slightly used tires which would have been stretched a bit, heated them in dryer and sun, etc) mounted by hand first got blisters, but when I flatted in 2 extremes very hot summer day and very cold winter day they were a PITA to mount even with a kool stop tire bead jack that it wasn't worth the trouble. I have zero problems now with the said rims with hands only.




Stumpjumper FSR said:


> I have no problems at all mounting and dismounting tires on my Pacenti SL23's (Vittoria Open Corsa / Michelin Pro 4) I use 2 layers of Stans, make sure the bead is in the center of the rim and finish at the valve stem. Its easy...no tools required!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Stumpjumper FSR said:


> I have no problems at all mounting and dismounting tires on my Pacenti SL23's (Vittoria Open Corsa / Michelin Pro 4) I use 2 layers of Stans, make sure the bead is in the center of the rim and finish at the valve stem. Its easy...no tools required!


You must have incredible strength. 

Just to make sure I wasn't imagining the struggle that prompted my OP, and due to your claim that with "Pacenti SL23's (Vittoria Open Corsa / Michelin Pro 4).......Its easy...no tools required!" I just went to the workshop to try again.

Here is the stuff -
Pacenti SL23, 2014. One worn out Vittoria Open Corsa (down to the threads), one almost new Vittoria Open Corsa and one old Michelin Pro.
Levers - a Crank Brothers Speedier Lever. An old generic small plastic lever.
No tubes were installed for these tests.

Old Vittoria OC - could get it on with no levers, the first side needed a lever for removal and the 2nd side didn't. The cheap lever (due to its thinner size) was easier to use than the bulky Crank Brothers.
Newer Vittoria OC - same as the old tire but harder to install and remove.
Michelin Pro - same but much harder than the Vittorias. That's probably due to it being much less supple than the Vitts.

All these tires were then tested on a Mavic OP rim and a BWW Blackset Race rim - all went on and off with just fingers and zero struggle.

So my findings are not your "easy...no tools required!" findings for the "tubeless ready" Pacenti rim. I've been changing tires without levers, road, track, cx and mtb, for decades.

I'd love to see a video of your style!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I think by hand is always better when you can. 95% of the time for me, but I have huge Mitts that are pretty clampy.  Lower that % slightly with tubeless rims. Which I always use a tube since one road tubeless try. Wtih DA wheels, no spoke hole or tape to grab up needed fudge room. But high pressure tubeless is a 'pass' for me form doing it only for one rear tires worth of time/wear. YMMV

On another side note: I often wonder when reading bad reviews on tires I have used 'umpteen' [word used in honor of Dad ] with no issues at all... Well, I wonder if the separations and bubbles and sidewall reports were not as a result of too much leverage with a tool tearing some threads on the onset of installing new tires. There are a few choices to go to before breaking out the 2x4 for leverage for Pete's sake.


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> You must have incredible strength.
> 
> Just to make sure I wasn't imagining the struggle that prompted my OP, and due to your claim that with "Pacenti SL23's (Vittoria Open Corsa / Michelin Pro 4).......Its easy...no tools required!" I just went to the workshop to try again.
> 
> ...


When I have some free time I'll send you a video, I really don't find it difficult to mount tires on these rims, they are about the same as the Reynolds Assaults that they replaced. I've had 2 flats this year when out on the road and replacing the tube was not an issue. I do use talc at home which helps to slide the last bit of tire onto the rim.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

A "tubeless-ready" rim is one that has a distinct bead seat. This means that if you look at the profile of the rim the inside walls will have a horizontal shelf on each side. Some tubeless-ready rims also have a vertical bump or bead-lock at the inside edge of the shelf before it dips down into the center (similar to a UST rim). A good tubeless ready rim will have a horizontal bead seat that is wide enough to keep the tire seated even when the air is let out. 

As mentioned already, any rim can be made air-tight and used tubeless, BUT
Non tubeless-ready rims are just U-shaped on the inside and some might have a very small bump next to the wall representing the theoretical 622mm bead diameter. 

Some good Non-Tubeless-ready rims that are 23mm wide:
H Plus Son Archetype as mentioned already
H Plus Son TB14
Hed Belgium (not the Plus - the Plus has bead seats)
Velocity Synergy rim

The hold Velocity A-23 was U-shaped on the inside, but the new one has bead-seats and is considered Tubeless ready.

Look at the profiles of the rims on this page to see the difference:
Velocity Wheels


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I would add, the upside I have found to tubeless rims even with a tube is this. When you do flat at speed, the tire is a lot more likely to stay put on the bead, the few time this has happen to me that is.

Last one, front flat on an A23, I got to a stop and the front tire was equally flat and hanging out on both sides. Like how a new open clincher come/sits, except the tire was not an open clincher. One of my last stock of Axial Pro 25C.

Rim never touched the ground and I still had to 'unhook' the tire out of the rim bead to fix it. I thought, this can't be bad.

FWIW/YMMV/ETC


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

I don't get the whole bloodying your hands to get tires on without using levers thing . Sure when I mount my tires (mostly tubeless these days) I shoot to do it without the use of levers, and with the vast majority of rims/tire combos I can. But if it gets to be a PITA, I don't hesitate to just break out the levers. Yes you must exercise a little common sense and care not to pinch the tube or kink the tire bead, but such care is required for just about any work you do on a bike.

Quite frankly with tubeless tires, I'd rather the tires didn't go on too easy. When I'm bombing down a hill at 40-50mph, if my tire flats I'd like some extra assurance that the tire will stay seated in the rim to reduce my chances of eating pavement.


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## Easyup (Feb 26, 2012)

Mike T.;4739297
I have NO idea how a woman said:


> Mike, you can add ARTHRITIS to your list, I have 50+ years experience and am considered fit and after removing a nearly new Gatorskin this weak i ruined the tube as I had to get a metal motorcycle lever to get the thing off. My GP says arthritis in the hands is one of the common joys of aging.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Easyup said:


> Mike, you can add ARTHRITIS to your list, I have 50+ years experience and am considered fit and after removing a nearly new Gatorskin this weak i ruined the tube as I had to get a metal motorcycle lever to get the thing off. My GP says arthritis in the hands is one of the common joys of aging.


I'm past my mid-60s but have no arthritis and still have my full strength (what I have left at my age). It was bad for me removing those tires so I can imagine how it is for you or a small woman. I'll be writing a section for my Wheels webpage on all this. Thanks for your input Easyup.


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## RoadCube (Nov 22, 2006)

Mike T.,
Do you go tire lever-free when removing tire? I have never tried that one and I do not know the technique.
Do you end at the valve stem or start at the valve stem when mounting? I end at the stem but many instructions say to end opposite.
Does tire width make a difference for you? Vittoria Diamantes seemed way-skinny and hard to mount.
Funny how kneading the tire to the center gives you that little bit of slack for mounting.
RC


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

RoadCube said:


> Mike T., Do you go tire lever-free when removing tire? I have never tried that one and I do not know the technique.


Absolutely lever-free both with installation & removal. As I said in an earlier post - it's with fingers only (no thumb heel or palm work needed) but with the right rim and tire combo. I use a modified Jim Langley method. I guess I should post a vid on this myself -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCYodiWpwlA



> Do you end at the valve stem or start at the valve stem when mounting? I end at the stem but many instructions say to end opposite.


When installing a tire I end at the valve. When removing a tire I start opposite the valve.



> Does tire width make a difference for you? Vittoria Diamantes seemed way-skinny and hard to mount.


I only use 25mm wide tires at present.



> Funny how kneading the tire to the center gives you that little bit of slack for mounting.


Lots of rims have a centre depression or channel which is crucial for leverless changes. The beads must be in the channel.

But, no matter the technique I use or the channel, my current tires on a "tubeless ready" rim is a big struggle for me.


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## RoadCube (Nov 22, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Absolutely lever-free both with installation & removal. As I said in an earlier post - it's with fingers only (no thumb heel or palm work needed) but with the right rim and tire combo. I use a modified Jim Langley method. I guess I should post a vid on this myself -
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCYodiWpwlA
> 
> 
> ...


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

"When removing a tire I start opposite the valve."

Not me, I want the tire bead to go as deep as possible 180^ from my starting point. So I start 90^ off the valve myself. The bead is not going to go as deep by the valve. The valve is in the way as compared to every other place. Especially if I am not using levers. Not picking on you, but definitely disagreeing, and vehemently.

And... I also end up just right or left of the valve going on.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

robt57 said:


> "When removing a tire I start opposite the valve."
> Not me, I want the tire bead to go as deep as possible 180^ from my starting point. So I start 90^ off the valve myself. The bead is not going to go as deep by the valve. The valve is in the way as compared to every other place. Especially if I am not using levers. Not picking on you, but definitely disagreeing, and vehemently.
> And... I also end up just right or left of the valve going on.


With my latest tire removal tests I didn't even insert a tube! And on my non tubeless ready rims, it doesn't matter where the valve is - the tires come off easily.

You need to get your "vehemently" under control though!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

"You need to get your "vehemently" under control though! "


I'll work on it, I just wanted to use a big word for a change..


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

robt57 said:


> "You need to get your "vehemently" under control though! "
> I'll work on it, I just wanted to use a big word for a change..


I could just imagine you spraying vehem all over the place!


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## bobonker (Feb 12, 2011)

Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned the Kinlin XC-279.

Sonny


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

> "When removing a tire I start opposite the valve."


Not me. I start tire removal ~8" away from the valve and finish at or near the valve. Pushing in on the valve helps move the tube out from under that last part of the bead.


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## morgan1819 (Nov 22, 2005)

Agreed. The Kinlin XC-279 (BHS 472W) is a great tubed option. 

Michelin Pro4 Service Course 25c goes on easily with no lever. I believe I used one cheap plastic lever to remove it ... but could have done it without it if I had to.

My last tubeless setup was an Ultegra 6800 tubeless wheelset with Hutch Fusion 3 tires. My hands were pretty mangled by the time I get the tire on (no levers). I used every trick in the book ... centered in rim channel, dish soap in bead, warmed tire. It would have been nearly impossible to remove/install while on a ride. I officially bailed on tubeless.



bobonker said:


> Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned the Kinlin XC-279.
> 
> Sonny


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## opie (Oct 10, 2012)

Don't post much but would like to coment on my Pacenti experience. Was reluctant to buy this rim after hearing the tire mounting problems but ended up building up a set on White Ind hubs, then came tire mounting time. To my suprise I found it was no problem mounting new Conti 4000s on this rim with one lever. May have just got lucky but like the rim enough that I have two set. Learned alot about using levers back in the 80's mounting those dreaded Turbo S tires. I also run Hed C2, Archtype and A23s and will admit the Pacenti's is a little tougher to get a tire on, but using levers is not the end of the world.


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## MikeinJax (Aug 10, 2014)

Here's my vote for the H Plus Son Archetype. Running new Conti Grand Prix foldables with no problems installing / removing.

That said, I'm still pining to build the Pacenti's!


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

It turns out I have a drop center rim in my basement. I don't think I had realized the design when I first dismounted a tire, and decided not to re-use the rim as it was such a pain. I tried mounting/dismounting yesterday. It was still tough, but one had to really work the tire down into the groove (easiest without tube and rim tape).

Anyway, for your original question, I brought up the Velocity website:
Velocity Wheels

From their published profiles, it looks like they have:
*Tubeless:*
A23 (23mm wide), A23OC (23mm wide), Aileron (25mm wide).

*Non-Tubeless:*
Aero (20mm wide), Aerohead (20mm wide), Synergy (23mm wide), Fusion (19mm wide), Atlas (25.4mm wide), Dyad (24mm wide), and DeepV (19mm wide).


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> But, no matter the technique I use or the channel, my current tires on a "tubeless ready" rim is a big struggle for me.


What are you using for rim tape?

When I got my first tubeless compatible rims (DT RR440) I tried to keep using the same rim strips I always had and noted significantly harder tire mounting/dismounting because the rimstrip wasn't really able to conform fully into the channel and thus takes up some of that circumference you need to make the bead loose during R&R. I tried Velox in both widths, a couple pre-sized cloth stretchy strips from the shop, and finally settled on Velo Plugs which made it feel normal again.

I think you could also be successful with Stans tape since it conforms well to the bead seat and trough shaping in a tubless-ready rim.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

nhluhr said:


> What are you using for rim tape?
> 
> When I got my first tubeless compatible rims (DT RR440) I tried to keep using the same rim strips I always had and noted significantly harder tire mounting/dismounting because the rimstrip wasn't really able to conform fully into the channel and thus takes up some of that circumference you need to make the bead loose during R&R. I tried Velox in both widths, a couple pre-sized cloth stretchy strips from the shop, and finally settled on Velo Plugs which made it feel normal again.
> I think you could also be successful with Stans tape since it conforms well to the bead seat and trough shaping in a tubless-ready rim.


Pacenti (one layer) as specified. Same difference as Stan's.


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## bobonker (Feb 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Pacenti (one layer) as specified. Same difference as Stan's.


Mike,

I used 1 layer of Pacenti tape on an H+ Son Archetype build earlier this year. Eventually, the tape tore at several spoke holes and I ruined a $$$ latex tube and was stranded. I had 28c tires on these wheels, so the pressure was always about 80psi rear and 70psi front.

I know the tape says 1 layer for non-tubeless and 2 layers for tubeless, but I ended up redoing them with 2 layers and have had no problems since. 

YMMV but beware!

Sonny


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Thanks BCH. Two questions -
> 
> 1. Have you tried a non tubeless tire on those rims (for non lever fit performance)?
> 2. Do you think they should be on a list of "23+mm non-tubless" rims?
> ...


I will confirm that! I have the HED Ardennes Plus wheels with 25mm wide rims that are marketed as tubeless-ready, but I have been able to mount Pro 4 and GP4000 tires on them without levers. But I do use full gloves to avoid the pain of trying to roll the tire over with my palm. But no levers!

On the other hand, trying to air up a tubeless setup on this wheel is impossible without a compressor or CO2. I think the Belgium Plus rim, though marketed as tubeless, aren't really aiming at the market.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> I will confirm that! I have the HED Ardennes Plus wheels with 25mm wide rims that are marketed as tubeless-ready, but I have been able to mount Pro 4 and GP4000 tires on them without levers. But I do use full gloves to avoid the pain of trying to roll the tire over with my palm. But no levers!


Thanks acl, that's good to know. I'm getting the impression that Hed are not actively marketing this rim as a stand-alone product. Can anyone confirm that or list a source?



> On the other hand, trying to air up a tubeless setup on this wheel is impossible without a compressor or CO2. I think the Belgium Plus rim, though marketed as tubeless, aren't really aiming at the market.


That won't concern me at all as I won't ever be going tubeless. I got away from tubulars, decades ago, to do away with unnecessary faffin' around and I'm not about to regress. I don't need another hobby.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Thanks acl, that's good to know. I'm getting the impression that Hed are not actively marketing this rim as a stand-alone product. Can anyone confirm that or list a source?
> 
> 
> That won't concern me at all as I won't ever be going tubeless. I got away from tubulars, decades ago, to do away with unnecessary faffin' around and I'm not about to regress. I don't need another hobby.


I agree, tubeless and tubular are too much faffin for what little benefits they give. I tried tubeless and regret spending so much time and money to do so.

As for HED, I don't see them marketing the Ardennes Plus rim as a standalone option like they did with the C2. But, there is a market for these Ardennes Plus rim laced to a Powertap, and this seems to be popular with cx guys and heavy guy who are looking for a bulletproof training wheelset with power and can do both road and gravel.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> I agree, tubeless and tubular are too much faffin for what little benefits they give. I tried tubeless and regret spending so much time and money to do so.
> As for HED, I don't see them marketing the Ardennes Plus rim as a standalone option like they did with the C2. But, there is a market for these Ardennes Plus rim laced to a Powertap, and this seems to be popular with cx guys and heavy guy who are looking for a bulletproof training wheelset with power and can do both road and gravel.


I'm gonna have to design & market my own rim to the exact specs that *I* need - and hopefully others will need that are not willing to put up with the negative aspects of "tubeless ready" rims and tubeless in general.

This is why I'm on the search for the "perfect" rim. I've said it before - it would be the Pacenti SL23 that would take tires easily or a BWW Blackset Race or Pure Race that was 23mm wide. Job done. I could die happy.

I want a black, 23/24mm wide rim, 24-26mm deep, with machined sidewalls, 450 grams +/-, welded rim and have the ability to R&R tires without levers! *And have Velox clearance*. Any rim makers want to grab this spec? Need me to bankroll you? You'd have to call it the "Mike T. Un-Tubeless Special" though.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

bobonker said:


> I know the tape says 1 layer for non-tubeless and 2 layers for tubeless, but I ended up redoing them with 2 layers and have had no problems since.


Ditto!!!:thumbsup:


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dcgriz said:


> Ditto!!!:thumbsup:


I've been using one layer as suggested but I keep my eye on it and it IS looking a bit stressed (after maybe 12 rides). I'll be mighty pissed if a split tape lets me down as two layers will make tire fitting harder and my standby Velox (never let me down) would make tire fitting impossible.

I wonder why Kirk didn't spec the rims as "tubeless ready" but with clearance for Velox for if non-tubeless peeps wanted to use them?


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

If Kirk had a deeper channel in the rim to allow for the thickness of velox then tires would be harder to inflate as tubeless.

One layer velox is almost as thick as 4 layers of NoTubes tape.

The Rox SuperDute Rim tape is very thin and light so it's a good option for tube use.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

changingleaf said:


> If Kirk had a deeper channel in the rim to allow for the thickness of velox then tires would be harder to inflate as tubeless.
> One layer velox is almost as thick as 4 layers of NoTubes tape.


This would be my idea - Velox for the tubes crowd and Velox over the Pacenti (or the other way around) for the no-tube people. The Velox would prevent the Pacenti air-sealing tape from being pushed down into the nipple holes as much.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

changingleaf said:


> *If Kirk had a deeper channel in the rim to allow for the thickness of velox then tires would be harder to inflate as tubeless.*
> 
> One layer velox is almost as thick as 4 layers of NoTubes tape.
> 
> The Rox SuperDute Rim tape is very thin and light so it's a good option for tube use.


You hit the nail squarely on the head here!

Last year I spent around $700 mucking around with tubeless, trying different wheelsets (Dura Ace 7900 tubeless, Bontrager TLR, HED Ardennes Plus), differnt tubeless tires (eg, Bontrager, Hutchinson Fusion3, Hutchinson Sector 28). The one universal theme I saw was exactly like you mentioned. If a tire can be mounted relatively easy over a tubeless rim, then you can bet that it will be impossible to air any tubeless tire up on the same rim without using compressed air. It's like an inverse relationship between the effort required to mount a tire on a tubeless rim and the effort required to air it up (without using compressed air).

The Dura Ace 7900 tubeless rim when combined with the Fusion3 tubeless tire.. was the tightest fitting for me. I struggled to get the Fusion3 tire over this rim no matter what magical mounting techniques I found on google (and I found some obscured technique from old-schooler in the UK!). But once mounted, the tire/rim combination fitted so tightly (so tight that the deflated tire could barely move once inside the rim!) that I was able to easily air up the tire with a floor pump,, heck I didn't even have to push the pump fast,, the first simple push of the pump would start to air-up immediately. And this is without a tube inside. I cannot imagine the effort that would require to mount such tire with a tube inside should one get a flat on the road that doesn't seal. Hmm... as a matter, I did encounter such situation!! It took me nearly an hour to remove the Fusion3 from the rim and insert an inner tube.. and this is with a help with a guy who was also a cyclist and let me use his house to rest and use his tools. The seal of the Fusion3 to the rim, aided by the Stans sealant, was so tight that even removing the tire was difficult. Cleaning up the Stans gunk was a biatch. But the real joy came when trying to mount the tire with an inner tube. It was this revelation of joy that finally persuaded me to ditch tubeless all together.

The HED Ardennes Plus, though advertised as "tubeless ready", is a loose fitting rim. Very easy to moun any tire. But with ease of mounting a tire... also comes the inverse relationship of trying to air up a tubeless tire on this rim.. i.e., it is impossible to air up without a compressor or a large cartrige of CO2 (small CO2 cartridge might not be enough since the Ardenness Plus is a high volume rim, especially if you put a 28c tire on it).

bottomline, I ditched tubeless and not looking back. Sure do regret spending all that money that could have been spent elsewhere. ah well that's life.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> This would be my idea - Velox for the tubes crowd and Velox over the Pacenti (or the other way around) for the no-tube people. The Velox would prevent the Pacenti air-sealing tape from being pushed down into the nipple holes as much.


Personally, I'm not a fan of having to rely on different types/layers of tape for tubeless compatibility. Inevitably, the sealant causes the top-most tape/strip to shift, which can lead to leaking, etc.

The HED tubeless-ready rims/wheels work fine with tubeless and conventional tires. I'm not the strongest guy in the world, but I can install both types of tires w/o much effort, and removal only requires two Pedro's levers.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ACL, thanks for curing me of any remote idea of ever going tubeless. If I regress, you have my permission to slap me.

So, from what you say, and combo tubed/tubless rim is too much of a compromise. Which brings me back around to my goal - that someone will market an *un-tubless* 23-24mm wide rim that isn't 500+ grams (as most are).


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> ACL, thanks for curing me of any remote idea of ever going tubeless. If I regress, you have my permission to slap me.
> 
> So, from what you say, and combo tubed/tubless rim is too much of a compromise. Which brings me back around to my goal - that someone will market an *un-tubless* 23-24mm wide rim that isn't 500+ grams (as most are).


sure will I'll slap ya if you ever think about tubeless. A $700 slapping was a painful experiment in retrospect for me. I so much wanted to love tubeless, you know, the ride of near-tubular like.. blah blah... but alas, tubeless is just like tubular problem child.

it's unfortunate that HED doesn't sell their Ardennes Plus rim as a standalone option to the enthusiast wheelbuilders. It is one of the best aluminum hoops in the world IMO. It can take a 23c, 25c, 28c tire (regular or tubeless).. all lever-free mounting. And its profile is even "toroidal" like the Zipp 101 aluminum set too.. if you're into all that "aero" stuff. 

My "ideal" aluminum wheelset would be these HED Ardennes Plus rims laced up to either Dura Ace or Chris King hub with Sapim cx rays. Now should my HED Ardennes Plus wheelset broke for some reason (and the rims are intact), I definitely will keep the rims and lace them up to some Chris Kings for sure!


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## cnardone (Jun 28, 2014)

Forgive the noob question. What is the difference between the rims used in the Ardennes Plus wheel and the Belgium + rims?

HED Belgium + Clincher Rim - Wheelbuilder.com

Chris King does a wheel to that rim 28 / 28 

http://chrisking.com/files/upload/wheels/wheel_spec_chart.pdf

cmn


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> You hit the nail squarely on the head here!
> 
> Last year I spent around $700 mucking around with tubeless, trying different wheelsets (Dura Ace 7900 tubeless, Bontrager TLR, HED Ardennes Plus), differnt tubeless tires (eg, Bontrager, Hutchinson Fusion3, Hutchinson Sector 28). The one universal theme I saw was exactly like you mentioned. If a tire can be mounted relatively easy over a tubeless rim, then you can bet that it will be impossible to air any tubeless tire up on the same rim without using compressed air. It's like an inverse relationship between the effort required to mount a tire on a tubeless rim and the effort required to air it up (without using compressed air).
> 
> ...


I can floor pump my Belgium+ rims and Fusion3 tires from zero (just mounted) to full just fine. Tires click in just fine and hold pressure still just fine.

This smacks of operator error.



aclinjury said:


> sure will I'll slap ya if you ever think about tubeless. A $700 slapping was a painful experiment in retrospect for me. I so much wanted to love tubeless, you know, the ride of near-tubular like.. blah blah... but alas, tubeless is just like tubular problem child.
> 
> _*it's unfortunate that HED doesn't sell their Ardennes Plus rim as a standalone option*_ to the enthusiast wheelbuilders. It is one of the best aluminum hoops in the world IMO. It can take a 23c, 25c, 28c tire (regular or tubeless).. all lever-free mounting. And its profile is even "toroidal" like the Zipp 101 aluminum set too.. if you're into all that "aero" stuff.
> 
> My "ideal" aluminum wheelset would be these HED Ardennes Plus rims laced up to either Dura Ace or Chris King hub with Sapim cx rays. Now should my HED Ardennes Plus wheelset broke for some reason (and the rims are intact), I definitely will keep the rims and lace them up to some Chris Kings for sure!


WTH are you talking about? They (HED) have forever. Ardennes Plus=Belgium+

Only difference is the Belgium+ comes in limited hole drillings (28/32) and with a different coat of paint. People have been building R45/Belgium+ builds for years, amigo. Hell King even sells the sets direct now. My set of R45/Belgium+/CX-Ray came from the folks at Glory Cycles.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Does anyone have a close-up photo of what Archtypes look like after the brake pads have operated on that dark anodized pad track for a while? I can't help thinking that they'd look like chitt after a short while.

WHY is there no perfect rim!!


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## rlrj (Nov 17, 2005)

here are mine after +/- 1600 miles this summer. The look as the anodized black wearing off isn't bothering me. Anyone can just finish the job with acetone if it did. I must not brake to much because I'm going slow already LOL.































Mike T. said:


> Does anyone have a close-up photo of what Archtypes look like after the brake pads have operated on that dark anodized pad track for a while? I can't help thinking that they'd look like chitt after a short while.
> 
> WHY is there no perfect rim!!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Does anyone have a close-up photo of what Archtypes look like after the brake pads have operated on that dark anodized pad track for a while? I can't help thinking that they'd look like chitt after a short while.
> 
> WHY is there no perfect rim!!


They look like any other black rim with silver brake track after a while. In the mean time they do look like chitt. If you want to speed up the transition from all black to all silver tracks just ride some gravel in the rain.


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## MikeinJax (Aug 10, 2014)

I can take some pics when I get home Monday, but mine are already worn more than rlrj's. While I liked the all black look, I knew this would happen and I don't mind it too bad. 

Wish I were closer, I'd swap for a trial on the Pacenti's.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Marc said:


> I can floor pump my Belgium+ rims and *Fusion3 tires* from zero (just mounted) to full just fine. Tires click in just fine and hold pressure still just fine.
> 
> This smacks of operator error.
> 
> ...


ah yes, the Fusion3 tires, probably the most falsely advertised spec of any tire on earth. Their so called 23c measures barely more than 21mm wide on a Dura Ace 7900 rim with a 20.5mm width (while the Conti GP4000 and Mich Pro 4 23c tires would be a tad over 23mm on these same DA 7900 wheels). Fusion3 are tighter than virgins, that's why they're easy to air up...if *new*! But even the Fusion3, once they're used and stretched out a tad, good luck airing them up again with a floor pump again. Hiss... hiss.. hiss.. is what you'll get.

Ever tried to air up a true 25c tubeless tire (eg, Bontrager TLR 25c) or a true 28c tubeless tire (eg, Hutchinson Sector 28) on the HED+ with a floor pump? I reckon you haven't.

And I said Ardennes Plus rims, not Belgium+, didn't I? Some people like me who are lightweight would like something like 18/24 spoke config and not 28/32. So let's not get the two mixed up eh.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Does anyone have a close-up photo of what Archtypes look like after the brake pads have operated on that dark anodized pad track for a while? I can't help thinking that they'd look like chitt after a short while.
> 
> WHY is there no perfect rim!!


I don't understand why the brake tracks are anodized. Baffling. Is there some advantages to anodizing the brake tracks? If so, the advantages go away once the anodized layer start to wear off. Dumb idea. It's gotta be just a fashion statement for those who like the "stealth black" of their bikes??


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> I don't understand why the brake tracks are anodized. Baffling. Is there some advantages to anodizing the brake tracks? If so, the advantages go away once the anodized layer start to wear off. Dumb idea. It's gotta be just a fashion statement for those who like the "stealth black" of their bikes??


Think fixed gear use (sans brakes).


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> I don't understand why the brake tracks are anodized. Baffling. Is there some advantages to anodizing the brake tracks? If so, the advantages go away once the anodized layer start to wear off. Dumb idea. It's gotta be just a fashion statement for those who like the "stealth black" of their bikes??


I would guess that because of the way they are made it's simply much easier/cheaper to anodize the whole rim all at once rather than exclude the brake track from the process.

I don't even know what "the advantages" are that you're talking about but I'm not sure how you figure a temporary advantage is a "dumb idea" compared to never being there at all.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

GRAVELBIKE said:


> Think fixed gear use (sans brakes).


You can also add disc brakes to the 100% anodized.

I think I read that some manufactures had experimented with anodized brake tracks to decrease wear, at least initially until the extra hardness rubs off. Personally I'd rather my pads wore rather than the rims. However, I would admit that the uneven wear will eventually look a bit funky.


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## crank1979 (Sep 9, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> The Dura Ace 7900 tubeless rim when combined with the Fusion3 tubeless tire.. was the tightest fitting for me. I struggled to get the Fusion3 tire over this rim no matter what magical mounting techniques I found on google (and I found some obscured technique from old-schooler in the UK!). But once mounted, the tire/rim combination fitted so tightly (so tight that the deflated tire could barely move once inside the rim!) that I was able to easily air up the tire with a floor pump,, heck I didn't even have to push the pump fast,, the first simple push of the pump would start to air-up immediately. And this is without a tube inside. I cannot imagine the effort that would require to mount such tire with a tube inside should one get a flat on the road that doesn't seal. Hmm... as a matter, I did encounter such situation!! It took me nearly an hour to remove the Fusion3 from the rim and insert an inner tube.. and this is with a help with a guy who was also a cyclist and let me use his house to rest and use his tools. The seal of the Fusion3 to the rim, aided by the Stans sealant, was so tight that even removing the tire was difficult. Cleaning up the Stans gunk was a biatch. But the real joy came when trying to mount the tire with an inner tube. It was this revelation of joy that finally persuaded me to ditch tubeless all together.


I've run that same set up in the past before moving onto C24 9000 TL wheels, again set up tubeless with Fusion 3s, IRC Formula Pro X-guard and Intensives. The tyres are more difficult to mount than standard clinchers bit if you push the bead into the centre of the rim as you go it isn't that much harder than clinchers. I use 3 tyre Michelin, flat and wide style levers to remove the tyre and space them just far enough apart to push down on two with one hand while the other hand moves the lever around the rim. 

I've had one puncture that required a roadside repair. 10 or so minutes to pull the wheel off, unhook the bead on one side, inspect the tyre, remove the wire causing the puncture, fit a tube, refit the bead, inflate and chuck back on the bike. An hour would suggest that tubeless isn't for you.

As far as cleaning sealant inside the rim... A quick wipe with a soft cloth that will deform enough to fit the inside profile of the rim is usually enough. A bit of toothbrush scrubbing might be needed in some spots where the sealant has hardened in a tight spot. Leaving the sealant in too long without topping it up and keeping some moisture in there will make it harder to clean out.

I'll never go back to regular clinchers. The puncture protection and better comfort is worth the bit of extra time to fit the tyres or a tube. On my commuters I've got Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres that still get punctures because I haven't set them up tubeless. On the other ocmmuter I've got a set of Schwalbe Durano Plus tyres that have punctured, but no that I've set them up ghetto tubeless with Mavic 719 rims the sealant works brilliantly. All of my road bikes and mtbs all run tubeless, it's just the one commuter I need to sort out and I'll build up some Mavic 719 wheels for it too.

Every complaint I've read of road tubeless being too difficult, too messy, taking too long or soemthing else along those lines always sounds like operator error, lack of knowledge or poor technique. New things take time and practice to adjust to, why should running tubeless be any different just because everyone thinks they know how to repair a punctured clincher or fit an new clincher tyre? Tubeless tyres can be patched on the inside too if that helps. 

If tyre choice is a problem I'd suggest trying the IRC tyres. Quality is better than Hutchinson and I think ride quality is as good as Conti GP4000s (which I thought were great) and Michelin Pro3s (which I found comfortable but not gripping as well as the GP4000s). I haven't ridden the Pro4s because they don't offer a tubeless version.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I would guess that because of the way they are made it's simply much easier/cheaper to anodize the whole rim all at once rather than exclude the brake track from the process.
> 
> I don't even know what "the advantages" are that you're talking about but I'm not sure how you figure a temporary advantage is a "dumb idea" compared to never being there at all.


Can't think of any advantages. But I believe anodizing an aluminum surface makes it harder, and therefore by extension any advantages that may arise from a harder aluminum surface? But if this was a real advantages worth doing, you can bet many more rim makers would anodize their rims.

HED Belgium C2 rims used to have the anodized option. And when one rim wore out the black anodization while the other rim doesn't, and it's usually the front rim will wear out first since 70% of braking forces goes to the front, it makes the whole bike looks ugly. Wheels look like it's from a sale from Salvation Army.

HED doesn't use anodize brake surface anymore. They machine all the surfaces now, just like what a proper highend road aluminum hoop destined for rim brake use should be.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

rm -rf said:


> When I first got the Kinlins, I had *sore fingers and two mangled levers* after a *long struggle *to mount a tire. I wondered if I would need a big steel tire lever or something similar out on the road!
> 
> But, I found an easy way to mount the (folding bead) tires, using just one lever and very little force on the lever. The key is to just lift less than an inch at a time, slide the lever over, and repeat. It's fast and easy.
> 
> ...


I found an easier way - switch your rim tape to two wraps of 1 mil Kapton tape which measures about .0025" thick including adhesive and just .005" for two layers versus .020" for Velox. That let me mount tires by hand.

Use 5/8" for traditional width rims, 3/4" for wide.

Other benefits include low cost and the weak adhesive which makes removal easy.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

crank1979 said:


> I've run that same set up in the past before moving onto C24 9000 TL wheels, again set up tubeless with Fusion 3s, IRC Formula Pro X-guard and Intensives. The tyres are more difficult to mount than standard clinchers bit if you push the bead into the centre of the rim as you go it isn't that much harder than clinchers. I use 3 tyre Michelin, flat and wide style levers to remove the tyre and space them just far enough apart to push down on two with one hand while the other hand moves the lever around the rim.
> 
> I've had one puncture that required a roadside repair. 10 or so minutes to pull the wheel off, unhook the bead on one side, inspect the tyre, remove the wire causing the puncture, fit a tube, refit the bead, inflate and chuck back on the bike. An hour would suggest that tubeless isn't for you.
> 
> ...


Well I respect your choice. That's all I can say.

Me, I've tried these tubeless tires: Fusion3, Hutchinson Sector 28, Maxxis Padrone, Bontrager R3, and one from Schwable (don't remember exact name). Sealant wise, I've tried the Stans stuff (latex based), the green Slime stuff (latex), the Liquid Caffe stuff (non-latex based). Wheelset wise, I've had the HED Ardeness Plus, DA C24-TL, Bontrager TLR, and a custom set based on Stans Alpha tubeless rim. 

Time wise, I've spent over a year trying all different sort of tires, wheels, sealant combination to fine that "perfect tubular" feel in a tubeless configuration. I've tried 23c, 25c, and even 28c tubeless tires. I've spent endless hours reading forums, watching google videos, on tire/wheel combo to try, and what mounting techniques to use to best mount these tires.

At this point, I'm confident that perhaps only a few regular mechanic and/or professional wheelbuilders in this forum have dedicated more time and money than me in exploring that perfect tubeless setup. Oh yes, all that experimentation costed me a small money fortune.

And yes, I do use tubeless on my mtb bike for years and years now.

I hate to say this, but at this point I'm always a little irk when someone hint to me that it's "operator error". Not directing at you or anyone in particular, but my point here is I have more then just dipped my feet in the tubeless world. I've gone in full steam ahead and put up the time and money to do so.

But at the end of the day, tubeless is not guarantee against flat. If you're riding the mountains (where sharp rocks lie on the sides of the road), then a deep cut on the sidewall of the tire is very very possible, and tubeless won't seal these cut. When a cut is 2-3 mm wide (again, small sharp rocks will do this), and your tire is not spanking new (ie, it's got maybe 600-700 miles on them), then these won't seal because there isn't enough rubber left on the tires to allow the sealant to "grab hold".

At the end of the day, you still need to carry all the tools and inner tubes that you would carry as if you're riding regular clinchers. No advantage to tubeless here.

Now I hear a lot on the argument regarding: "ride nicer, rolls nicer, grip better"
I don't believe it one bit. This may have been true back in the dark days of narrow rim (17-19mm wide) and narrow tires (19-20mm wide). But with the new breed of wide rims (23-25mm) and wide tires (25c), and thin butyle tube or even latex tubes,... such argument of "better ride" does not stand. And BTW, the Fusion3 tires (advertised as 23c) is actually very very narrow. Yes.. I have used a precission caliper to measure a Fusion3 on the DA 7900 rim at 100 psi, and the tire is dramatically undersized. My Hed Ardennes Plus (25mm wide rim) running a Pro 4 23c tire... will make the Fusion3 on any rim look puny.

These days, I can mount almost any,, ANY,, clinchers tire regardless of brand nor wheelset without using levers. There was only one particular instance where I tried to mount a *new* Pro 3 Endurance tire (endurance tires use very hard rubber) onto cheap Mavic Askium rim and I had to resort to levers because that tire/rim combination was just the exception, so i caved in and went for the levers after the skin of my palms (both palms!) were on the verge of blistering. Other than this weird combo, I don't even think about going for levers much these days. My point here is that though I'm no pro bike mech, I'm also no rookie when it comes to tires either.

And yes, I'm well aware that you can patch a tubeless tire from the inside. Hutchinson has such a kit. It's nothing more than a piece of rubber and superglue. It works... until the tire continues to wear to a point where finally even the patch will give out. So the patch will extend the life of an expensive tire for a couple hundred miles and thar she blows. And BTW, I have since found a better patch solution Hutchinson tubeless repair kit. The solution I tried was Loctite rubber cement (forgot the exact name convention) and automotive patch. Works much much better than Hutchinson stuff since the Loctite rubber glue is actually flexible and thus conforms much better to the changing shape of a rolling tire. So, here again I've dedicated time to finding a solution to try to salvage these expensive tubeless tires that most of them got maybe, maybe, 50% of their life used.

And now speaking about expense and money. A typical tubeless tire is no cheap, and they rarely go on sale, and when they do, the discount is frugal. On the other hand, I can get Mich Pro 4 Service Course from Ribble for as low as $28 a piece shipped to the US. $28 a piece for Mich Pro 4. Matter of fact I just bought 8 of them from Ribbles! (hey I have 4 bikes and they all need tires). No tubeless tire can come close to this price. Cost of ownership for clinchers is cheaper.

And did I mention that the Stans stuff left thich rubber snot the size of a lizard in my otherwise beautiful DA 7900 wheels? It made me so mad that I had to resort to acetone AND sandpaper to remove some of these oxidized rubber chunks from the DA 7900. Some of these oxidation is so bad that I will now never be able to sell these wheels anymore.

Give me a wide rim, some good clinchers, and thin butyle tubes, anyday anytime over any tubeless setup.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Thanks for that *acl*.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> Which brings me back around to my goal - that someone will market an *un-tubless* 23-24mm wide rim that isn't 500+ grams (as most are).


If you can accept a 22MM deep rim, the new BHS C22W at 24mm wide, 440g looks pretty good. Price is nice too at $59. 
NEW! BHS C22w Clincher - 22mm Deep - 24mm Wide - 440 grams

Depth wise, this one fits in between the 25 mm Archetype and 19.5mm A23. Not sure if it's welded though. Usually if there is no mention being welded, it's not.

The HED rims are widely available, even on Amazon, but you'll pay 115-120. each for the C2, exactly 2X what either one above costs. The plus are usually 150.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Z'mer said:


> If you can accept a 22MM deep rim, the new BHS C22W at 24mm wide, 440g looks pretty good. Price is nice too at $59.
> NEW! BHS C22w Clincher - 22mm Deep - 24mm Wide - 440 grams
> Depth wise, this one fits in between the 25 mm Archetype and 19.5mm A23. Not sure if it's welded though. Usually if there is no mention being welded, it's not.


But the specs say "It's tubeless ready". I can only assume that makes non-tubless tires harder to fit.


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## crank1979 (Sep 9, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> I hate to say this, but at this point I'm always a little irk when someone hint to me that it's "operator error". Not directing at you or anyone in particular, but my point here is I have more then just dipped my feet in the tubeless world. I've gone in full steam ahead and put up the time and money to do so.
> 
> At the end of the day, you still need to carry all the tools and inner tubes that you would carry as if you're riding regular clinchers. No advantage to tubeless here.
> 
> ...


If I couldn't get road tubeless to work at least as well as a regular clincher set up I would have given up well before you by the sounds of it. I'm not having a go at you, but all of that experimentation does make me wonder if you were actually experimenting with different processes and techniques to mount a tyre and fit a tube or just experimenting with different products. Getting the technique right might take a few goes of doing it the 'right' way, after working out whatever that ends up being. It's like the saying 'practise makes perfect', which doesn't help if you aren't practising the right things. 

I've found the advantage of tubeless regarding punctures is that the sealant will stop most, not all, punctures from needing a roadside fix. For me that is a significant advantage.

I've always repaired punctures with a regular, cheap tube patch kit. Clean the tyre, rough up the inside a bit, glue the patch on. Just like a tube. If the cut was bigger than 3-5mm I'd squirt some superglue into it from the outside after patching. It's always worked for me.

If the Stans was the older formula with the ammonia in it then the Shimano rims definitely corroded a bit for me too. Even with the newer formula. That was with both 7850 and 7900 wheels. I've since switched to Continental Revo sealant and that seems good. No more problems with my 7900 or 9000 wheels, or any other brand wheels.

I foudn the video below helpful for fitting all tyres. I've only had to tie the tyre on for the Marathon Plus tyres shown, never for tubeless but I can see how it could be helpful for tight tubeless tyres as well.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

crank1979 said:


> If I couldn't get road tubeless to work at least as well as a regular clincher set up I would have given up well before you by the sounds of it. I'm not having a go at you, but all of that experimentation does make me wonder if you were actually experimenting with different processes and techniques to mount a tyre and fit a tube or just experimenting with different products. Getting the technique right might take a few goes of doing it the 'right' way, after working out whatever that ends up being. It's like the saying 'practise makes perfect', which doesn't help if you aren't practising the right things.
> 
> I've found the advantage of tubeless regarding punctures is that the sealant will stop most, not all, punctures from needing a roadside fix. For me that is a significant advantage.
> 
> ...


Nah I was not just experimenting for the sake of experiment and trying out new products so i can write a review about it to up my reputation counts. I put out the time, effort, and money, to try tubeless because I bought into the tubeless craze thinking that I could get a "tubular" ride out of a clincher tires while getting superior flat protection. I'm not a person to give up easily on things. 

But at the end of the day, the pros of tubeless don't come close to stacking up to its cons. It has gotten to a point that if one wishes to become good at dealing with tubeless, one has to dedicate a lot of time into it. Tubeless requires a committment, an investment in time and material, that is just not practical for most cyclists. Hey I still have a half-full big bottle of Stans (the new Eco-friendly one) and a full big bottle of Flat-Attack (both latex based) and a bunch of syringes that I have no clue what I'll be doing with them. 

BTW, I did use the new Stans formula in my DA wheels. Any latex-based sealant will/must use ammonia in it because ammonia is required to keep the latex in suspension (ie, to prevent latex from coagulation). So both of Stans old and new formula used ammonia, just that the newer formula used less ammonia, but with less ammonia also means that the latex will coagulates faster and that means you'll need to refill the sealant more often. Non-latex based sealant used ethylene glycol, not ammonia, and these sealants can last for a very long time (year even) without cogulating... but the problem here is that non-latex sealants don't tend to seal as well as latex-based.

However, there is also another hidden fact that I think is important in the consideration of tubeless. Tubeless sealants, particularly the latex varieties, can seal a small *AND* prefectly round hold very very well (eg, a staple puncture, a thorn puncture, or a very small glass puncture). In fact, when I was at the Las Vegas Interbike show, a Stans rep demo this... using a *smooth* pointy tip metal rod (looks like a pointy screwdriver) to puncture a road tire (at what felt like 40-50 psi to my fingers, definitely softer than a real person would ride on).. he was able to poke many holes into the tire and it held air very well. But.. if you're hit with a jagged rock or sharpnel (eg, plenty of them on the mountain roads!) that is nowhere as ideal as a smooth metal pointy screwdriver... then you stand a very low chance of the hold sealing... but you stand high chance of seeing white sealeant sprayed all over the frame and brake tracks... and oh the joy of sitting on the side of the road wiping latex off of your brack tracks and frame,.. but now do you know why i spent close to an hour to fix a flat; it was not just to merely fix the flat but to also clean up the mess and make sure my wheel was in good braking condition.

But let us assume that a 2-3 mm jagged gash does manage to seal itself with the sealant, (and this would only happen on a fairely new tire with lots of rubber left), it would only be a matter of a few more hundred miles before this seal would break as the rubber is worn down. So a 2-3 mm gash would certainly requires to be patched, especially if you plan to use them on the mountain or anywhere where highe speed cornering occur. Patching a tubeless tire means you pretty much take it out of the rim, clean the up the sealant agressively with solvent like acetone/iso alchohol, then apply the patch and hope/pray that the patch hold. Wait for everything to cure, and then remount the tire, pour in some sealant. This whole process wasn't exactly what I envisioned I would be doing on a weekend day., well good thing I have many bikes.

When it works, it's great,.. 

..but so does wide 25mm HED rims + any light 200g tires (Pro4, Schwable ZX, Vittoria, Vredestine, etc) + thin butyl.


umm..
ah... not really wanted to hijack Mike.T thread's and turn it into an anti-tubeless bashing... just want to share my personal experience with tubeless.

oh btw, i did watch that video above!! loved it. But if I may, that guy is old school, he probably has a tons of experience and patience. But excellent technique. I copied him, and used my own modified technique. My technique involved me laying the wheel on the ground... and using my two toes (from my two feet!) to press down on the tire instead of using those rubber tie-clamps! Good thing I'm a bit of a flexible guy. And my gf has that weird look as I contort/stretch my back across the wheel to roll the tire over the rim (as my 2 seemingly opposable toes are clamping down on the tire). hehe I don't want to post my video.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

Caffelatex sealant does not contain ammonia.


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## fronesis (Jan 22, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> But the specs say "It's tubeless ready". I can only assume that makes non-tubless tires harder to fit.


I'd love to hear from someone who has built this rim to get some concrete feedback on just this point. I know that being "tubeless ready" is likely to make a rim harder to mount/remove tires, but I also don't think that all tubeless-ready are similarly difficult. My friend's Stan's rims are NOT nearly as hard as my Pacentis. 

I've just read through this whole thread and I think Mike's perfect rim would also be my perfect rim. I built a set of Pacenti SL23's this summer and I love everything about them EXCEPT fitting tires. I know that some folks, in this very thread, have said it's easy, but I spent HOURS and hours following every piece of advice on technique very closely, and still, putting Michelin Pro4s on those rims was almost impossible. The Speedier lever makes it do-able, and so I now ride with one of those in a saddlebag. 

I also have a set of H+S Archetypes (by the way, with disc brakes, I LOVE the anodized brake track that I'll never use), and they are great rims and easy to mount and remove tires with no lever. Alas, they are not quite as light and also not quite as solid as the SL23s.

So if the c22w, or some other rim, was proven to be easy to mount/remove tires, I'd be buying them right now...


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

I will admit that yesterday I had the opportunity to remove and re-install my 25mm Schwabe Marathon tire from my Aerohead (non-tubeless) rim. No toe-straps needed. No tools. I never carry tire levers with me. If I'm lucky, I'll have a pocket knife if needed, but also prefer mounting without tools, and dismounting without them if possible.

Some of the techniques are similar to what was shown in the video clip posted earlier, but I will say that it was much easier to do than indicated in the video clip.

Other than the bead popping out issue, the tire is actually pretty easy to mount (on standard non-tubeless rims).


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm just keeping my ear to the ground, waiting for the "perfect" rim to emerge that meets all "my" specs (that might not be someone else's specs). I have patience; it will come.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> I'm just keeping my ear to the ground, waiting for the "perfect" rim to emerge that meets all "my" specs (that might not be someone else's specs). I have patience; it will come.


I mentioned earlier, half of Velocity's rims are tubeless ready, half aren't. They are worth looking at again. The A23 is tubeless, but the Dyad may meet your goals.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

CliffordK said:


> I mentioned earlier, half of Velocity's rims are tubeless ready, half aren't. They are worth looking at again. The A23 is tubeless, but the Dyad may meet your goals.


The Dyad? I looked up its specs long ago and it's too heavy for me - 525 grams. My current narrow rims are 100g less than that and I'd like a wider rim but with the weight gain that this would entail. My 24mm wide, 26mm deep Pacentti are 439 and 459 grams so I know it's possible.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

fronesis said:


> I'd love to hear from someone who has built this rim to get some concrete feedback on just this point. I know that being "tubeless ready" is likely to make a rim harder to mount/remove tires, but I also don't think that all tubeless-ready are similarly difficult. My friend's Stan's rims are NOT nearly as hard as my Pacentis.
> 
> I've just read through this whole thread and I think Mike's perfect rim would also be my perfect rim. I built a set of Pacenti SL23's this summer and I love everything about them EXCEPT fitting tires. I know that some folks, in this very thread, have said it's easy, but I spent HOURS and hours following every piece of advice on technique very closely, and still, putting Michelin Pro4s on those rims was almost impossible. The Speedier lever makes it do-able, and so I now ride with one of those in a saddlebag.
> 
> ...




I have built several sets of the 22 and 31 tall BHS rims. They are tubeless ready rims. THey are pretty snug when fitting new Michilin Pro 4, 25 mm tires but are not near as bad as the Pacenti. You can get a tire on by hand, but you need to really work the tire into the channel.


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## fronesis (Jan 22, 2014)

Enoch562 said:


> I have built several sets of the 22 and 31 tall BHS rims. They are tubeless ready rims. THey are pretty snug when fitting new Michilin Pro 4, 25 mm tires but are not near as bad as the Pacenti. You can get a tire on by hand, but you need to really work the tire into the channel.


Thanks, that's very helpful. Even two notches easier than the SL23's might be workable for me. 

How would you rate the rims, and how would you compare them? Do you think the aero benefits of the 31's are worth the weight tradeoff?


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