# New 23mm wide seni-aero vs Kinlin XR-270 ????



## cyclevt (Aug 6, 2004)

So, what's a better choice?

I'm going to build a new set of wheels and have decided on either a new 23mm wide semi-aero rim (such as BHS C472w from bikehubstore.com) or the tried and true Kinlin XR-270.

The wheels will be:

Front: 24 radial spokes (hub TBD)
Rear: 28 2x spokes (hub TBD)
Spokes: probably Sapim Laser
Nipples probaby alloy, but open to suggestion
Weight goal: 1550gr or less
Daily do-all wheels
Builder will probably be me

Me and how I ride:

40+ ex-racer, fast group rides 3-5 days/week. hilly terrain with the occasional 3000-5000 climb (Colorado Front Range, Boulder area).
180 +/- pounds.
Seldom do I truly sprint
Often windy here
Use 25mm tires
Bike is a Wilier Izoard XP size XL

So, are the new 23mm wide rims worth 50-60gr extra weight for the wheelset and are they worth the extra cost?

Opinions?


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

cyclevt said:


> So, are the new 23mm wide rims worth 50-60gr extra weight for the wheelset and are they worth the extra cost?


Based on my experience with a set of Velocity A23s, the answers are yes, and yes.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I went to 23mm rim (H Plus Son Archetype) after about 10K miles on XR-270's and it was a pretty major improvement. Well worth the extra money. And not just because of the width difference.....the kinlins had a braking pulse (that eventually went away are they wore) and eventually died of many rim cracks.


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## bikewriter (Sep 2, 2002)

I'm 165 pounds and built BHS 23mm rims with their hubs (20/24) and used DT db with alloy nips. Wanted a daily all-around wheelset to put serious miles in this winter without spending too much; don't build my wheels so I had to factor in $80 total labor. My riding sounds a lot like yours. My mtb have wide carbon and alloy rims and it's a huge difference. The road bike was transformed with the BHS rim using 25mm tires and even 23 tubeless Fusion 3. Actual weight is 1570, not bad for the black DT db inexpensive spokes costing $390 total.

I reload ammunition for relaxation, the ability to customize and to save a boat load of money (reload about 1000 rounds per month) and should building wheels, but the "return on investment" would take a long time to recoup for the 1 or 2 wheelset a year, and I simply don't want to build wheels hence the swallowing of frugality and DIY pride by having a local master builder take over.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I think the XR270 is a great rim. It is proven, durable, and versatile. The XC279 has better ride quality though. 

If I had to pick between the two, I'd say accept the extra weight and go with the XC279.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Tell me more*

I'm 56kg and built up 20/24 Kinlin 270 setup. Rear rim was fine, built 2x with Aerolites and WI hub. Front had the pulsing issue and it never got better. I used a C4 FH95 built radial, heads-in with Aerolites. I'm in Tokyo today but the Archetype just arrived in Singapore and going to rebuild the front over the weekend but using Pillar 1422's, radial as before.

How long did it take the anodizing to wear off the braking surface and was the weight close to mfr. spec?

Also, what's your weight and wheel build?

Thanks



Jay Strongbow said:


> I went to 23mm rim (H Plus Son Archetype) after about 10K miles on XR-270's and it was a pretty major improvement. Well worth the extra money. And not just because of the width difference.....the kinlins had a braking pulse (that eventually went away are they wore) and eventually died of many rim cracks.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

BHS just added the H Son rim to thier stock. It shows to be a little lighter than the 472 rim plus it has a welded seam.


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

I don't like how the brake track will wear off and look patchy with the H Son rims. They look awesome when new though. Fairwheel just added them to their site too. Fairwheel has their own rim coming out soon to compete.

I am LOVING my new custom wheels built on the Kinlin XC279. Running them tubeless too. Need some new 25c tubeless tires and I will be floating on a cloud when riding.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

boneman said:


> I'm 56kg and built up 20/24 Kinlin 270 setup. Rear rim was fine, built 2x with Aerolites and WI hub. Front had the pulsing issue and it never got better. I used a C4 FH95 built radial, heads-in with Aerolites. I'm in Tokyo today but the Archetype just arrived in Singapore and going to rebuild the front over the weekend but using Pillar 1422's, radial as before.
> 
> How long did it take the anodizing to wear off the braking surface and was the weight close to mfr. spec?
> 
> ...



-Maybe a 1000 miles but I wasn't really paying attention to how long it took to wear the brake track from black to silver. It accelerated when I rode in the rain and picked up some grit.
-I didn't weigh the rims.
-150, Alchemy hubs, 20, 24 cx-ray.


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## Darryl W (Jul 10, 2010)

Think you will notice a difference with a wider rim. Once I built a set of HED's I got rid of all my skinny rims. The HED's , BHS, XC279 or A-23's will work. The HED's have the best finish. The A-23 not as aero.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

NWS Alpine said:


> I don't like how the brake track will wear off and look patchy with the H Son rims.


That wasn't an issue with mine. They wear very evenly. They did look a little patchy for a short period of time when they started to wear but eventually they look like any other silver brake track/black rim.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Impressive quality*

They are nicely made and finished. Still waiting on spokes so no comments on how they build up. Right on the button at 450gr.


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## bikewriter (Sep 2, 2002)

Placed my order at BHS a week ago and didn't know about H Plus Son Archetype

Very nice! Probably wouldn't have gone with them due to the extra cost since my "budget" wheelset is getting used all winter and is more of a everyday set, but should the desire to get a lighter build hit me those new rims will be front and center!

My 472 are good looking and the wheelsmith said built up without drama; a tad heavier than expected with one being pretty close to 490 (believe it was the 20h) while the 24 was about 476g.

So far the mtb hubset and the road hubs and rims from BHS are 100% sweetness.


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## cyclevt (Aug 6, 2004)

*To muddy the waters.......*

So, for 23mm wide rims at the (about) $60/ea price point, there's:
-Velocity A23 (440gr)
-BHS C472w semi-aero (480gr)
-Kinlin XC-279 (similar to BHS rims)

Again, build will be:
F - 24h, probably 2x
R - 28H, 2x/3x
DT Revolutions

Any opinion on ride quality?


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

The BHS c472w is the Kinlin XC279

I just got a set built with White T11 hubs and CX Rays 24/28 black brass nipples and they are awesome :thumbsup:


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## Darryl W (Jul 10, 2010)

cyclevt said:


> So, for 23mm wide rims at the (about) $60/ea price point, there's:
> -Velocity A23 (440gr)
> -BHS C472w semi-aero (480gr)
> -Kinlin XC-279 (similar to BHS rims)
> ...


Ride quality will come from the 23mm rims effect on the tires. Tires have a lot more give than wheels. Ask Mike T. about this


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## cyclevt (Aug 6, 2004)

*Profile?*

So, it comes down to profile.

A23 rim is triangular and 19.5mm deep
XC279 is seme-aero at 28mm deep.

8-9mm in depth seems like a big difference and (maybe?) stiffness.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

cyclevt said:


> So, for 23mm wide rims at the (about) $60/ea price point, there's:
> -Velocity A23 (440gr)
> -BHS C472w semi-aero (480gr)
> -Kinlin XC-279 (similar to BHS rims)
> ...


After following this thread , I decided to see if the 23mm wide rims were all that.

I order up some H Son rims from BHS and built them up with BHS hubs. 24 radial / 28 2x3x build with alloy nipples and a mix of Sapim Lasers and Race spokes came in at 1510 grams for the pair. Put a set of 700/ 23 tires on them so I could do a direct compare to what I've been riding (Kinlin 270's). I have to admit the wide rims have nicer ride, and the handling in corners was noticeably better also.
Are the wide H Son rims are any better than the wide Kinlins? That may be a toss up. It may come down to preference of 28 mm tall glossy finish over 25 mm tall flat finish. I wasn't a fan of the H Son logo so I removed the graphics with some paint thinner.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

I just built my HED/BHS 24/28 wheelset but haven't had a chance to put them through the paces. a quick spin around the block and i was really pleased with the ride quality. 

weight was ~1500 grams and total cost was ~$500.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

cyclevt said:


> So, it comes down to profile.
> 
> A23 rim is triangular and 19.5mm deep
> XC279 is seme-aero at 28mm deep.
> ...


At your weight of 180 lbs and intended purpose of the wheel I would look more into the rigidity of the wheel (specially the rear) rather than the added 50 or 60 extra grams which, IMO, will be rather insignificant.


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## Zampano (Aug 7, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I went to 23mm rim (H Plus Son Archetype) after about 10K miles on XR-270's and it was a pretty major improvement. Well worth the extra money. And not just because of the width difference.....the kinlins had a braking pulse (that eventually went away are they wore) and eventually died of many rim cracks.




Thanks for providing real world experiences.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I use Velocity Aerohead rims which I see rarely mentioned here.
They are lighter than all of the above rims and have off center drilling on the rear which helps equalize ds / nds tension. I once built a wheel set with XR270 and had bad brake pulsing which I see several people mentioned above. People who sell wheels with these rims say it is a rare occurence but it seems to be more than that. I personally don't like to use wide tires and low pressures because it feels too mushy too me. Michelin Pro Race3 23c at 100 psi is perfect and I don't feel the ride is too harsh or have any lack of cornering. At your weight Aeroheads might be too light but you could use Fusions which weigh about the same as those other rims. I am not trying to talk you out of buying wheels with wide rims, just saying there are other choices.


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## biker jk (Dec 5, 2012)

Hi all. I'm seeking some help with a build using the 23mm wide BHS rims, BHS hubs and CX-Ray spokes. The front will be 20h radial and the rear 24h 2x both sides. I weigh 150lbs. My question is whether the pulling spokes should be laced heads in or out? The NDS/DS spoke tension ratio is 46% based on the those hubs.Thanks in advance for any assistance.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

biker jk said:


> Hi all. I'm seeking some help with a build using the 23mm wide BHS rims, BHS hubs and CX-Ray spokes. The front will be 20h radial and the rear 24h 2x both sides. I weigh 150lbs. My question is whether the pulling spokes should be laced heads in or out? The NDS/DS spoke tension ratio is 46% based on the those hubs.Thanks in advance for any assistance.


Pulling spokes on the outside flange vs. on the inside flange on a cross lacing pattern is more of a preference than anything else. Either way will work fine.

Pulling spokes on the inside for hubs with disc brakes results for the spoke to pull inwards when braking and away from the brake caliper so certain hub manufactures recommended this lacing arrangement for their front wheel hubs. If I do the front wheel pulling spokes on the inside then I do the rear the same so they match.


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## cyclevt (Aug 6, 2004)

*Fusions*



jnbrown said:


> I use Velocity Aerohead rims which I see rarely mentioned here.
> They are lighter than all of the above rims and have off center drilling on the rear which helps equalize ds / nds tension. I once built a wheel set with XR270 and had bad brake pulsing which I see several people mentioned above. People who sell wheels with these rims say it is a rare occurence but it seems to be more than that. I personally don't like to use wide tires and low pressures because it feels too mushy too me. Michelin Pro Race3 23c at 100 psi is perfect and I don't feel the ride is too harsh or have any lack of cornering. At your weight Aeroheads might be too light but you could use Fusions which weigh about the same as those other rims. I am not trying to talk you out of buying wheels with wide rims, just saying there are other choices.


I had a pretty light set of Fusions built 8 years ago - 24f/28r. That's a great rim that I've considered as well.

Kinlins - I have a set of cyclocross tubulars build on the kinlin TB25 rim and they have been really greats. Some of that is the builder (Redstone bikes in Lyons, CO is awesome!) and some of it is the rim. I can't speak to the pulsing because cross brakes always just plain suck and I never really get on the brakes too much to know.

So, for a while was pretty set on the kinlin XR-270s. Then I started reading about the 23mm craze and re-thought the rim.

By the way, I still have the fusion front wheel. It was rebuilt with new spokes after a bad road crash and has since done duty as a cross training clincher ... super strong and durable, even with CX abuse! The rear wheel was scavenged for the hub to make the tubular cx set. Rim is hanging on the wall waiting for a hub..

The new bike I just bought came with a new set of Easton EA50 Aero wheels that use a 30mm deep rim. They are quite nice wheels, but I find them needlessly heavy (1800gr/set). I was planning on selling them to finance this build. I really like the idea of the 23mm rim and <1600gr wheelset. 

You know, gotta have the newest, lightest stuff.....


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

biker jk said:


> Hi all. I'm seeking some help with a build using the 23mm wide BHS rims, BHS hubs and CX-Ray spokes. The front will be 20h radial and the rear 24h 2x both sides. I weigh 150lbs. My question is whether the pulling spokes should be laced heads in or out? The NDS/DS spoke tension ratio is 46% based on the those hubs.Thanks in advance for any assistance.


The theory is that with pulling heads in, they'll cross under, and so pull the cross out under tension. You'll hear conflicting advice of whether that's a good thing or not. On the one hand, it theoretically aids the bracing angle. On the other hand, it decreases the clearance to the RD. 

IMO, much ado about nothing. If the wheel is properly tensioned, the differences are so small that it couldn't possibly matter. Mostly a theoretical discussion.


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## biker jk (Dec 5, 2012)

danl1 said:


> The theory is that with pulling heads in, they'll cross under, and so pull the cross out under tension. You'll hear conflicting advice of whether that's a good thing or not. On the one hand, it theoretically aids the bracing angle. On the other hand, it decreases the clearance to the RD.
> 
> IMO, much ado about nothing. If the wheel is properly tensioned, the differences are so small that it couldn't possibly matter. Mostly a theoretical discussion.


Thanks for your help. My ROL wheels are laced heads out, while I noticed that Williams uses heads in, so it does sound like much ado about nothing, as you suggest.


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## biker jk (Dec 5, 2012)

I have just built a wheelset using the Kinlin 23mm wide rim, BHS hubs and Sapim CX-Ray spokes. 20f laced radially and 24r laced 2x both sides using brass nipples. Weight came in at 1490 grams (rims were 480g each). I will provide an update on how they ride and can also compare them to my Kinlin XR270 set.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Nice!*

Nice looking pair of wheels there. If I were in the States I'd be looking at those rims but from Singapore, well we shall see.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Man those rims look stout.


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## biker jk (Dec 5, 2012)

boneman said:


> Nice looking pair of wheels there. If I were in the States I'd be looking at those rims but from Singapore, well we shall see.


I'm actually in Australia and purchased the parts from the US. Including delivery, the build cost $430. Boyd sells a similar wheelset using the same 23mm wide rims but this would have cost $630 delivered. I enjoy building wheels so the price difference wasn't the main motivation.


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## biker jk (Dec 5, 2012)

Enoch562 said:


> Man those rims look stout.


Yes they are quite stout. Combining a 28mm depth and 23mm width rim does result in a stiff wheelset. The front was aided by a very wide flange spacing (80mm which is the same as Shimano hubs which produce quite stiff front wheels, I have a set of RS80s). These rims also take a high spoke tension and I went 130kgf on the rear drive side.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Would building the BHS c472w rims 32/3 front and rear be total overkill for a 180 to 195lb rider for daily training? Or would the A23's be a better choice. Anyone? Thanks.


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## biker jk (Dec 5, 2012)

T K said:


> Would building the BHS c472w rims 32/3 front and rear be total overkill for a 180 to 195lb rider for daily training? Or would the A23's be a better choice. Anyone? Thanks.


The BHS C472w rim is a little deeper than the A23 and so should be stiffer. You're not exactly a clydesdale and could go 28 spokes on the front laced 2x, 32 rear laced 3x. I rode my BHS C472w rims on chip seal today for the first time and took my tyre pressures down 10psi and it was like riding on a billard table smooth surface.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

biker jk said:


> The BHS C472w rim is a little deeper than the A23 and so should be stiffer. You're not exactly a clydesdale and could go 28 spokes on the front laced 2x, 32 rear laced 3x. I rode my BHS C472w rims on chip seal today for the first time and took my tyre pressures down 10psi and it was like riding on a billard table smooth surface.


Thanks. I wasn't really looking for a spoke count for this build. But what I was really asking (should have been more specific) is, I want to build a wheelset using a 32 cross 3 pattern for an everyday training wheel. Would the BHS be overkill (overstiff) with that lacing or would the A23 be a better choice.


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## Stew (Feb 23, 2004)

Hi there,

I was thinking of building the same kind of wheelset with either the Fusions or Aeroheads with WI hubs. Any opinion either way. I weigh 145 and live in Fort Lauderdale.

Thanks,
Stew


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