# Boyd vs. Williams



## yetigooch

Has anyone ridden these wheels? I'm specifically interested in the 58 carbon wheels (tubular or clincher). The price point is great for both these wheelsets but was interested in some feedback on how they ride and the durability as an everyday wheelset.


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## skizzle86

I have the heavier first gen model. I use them as everyday wheels and love them. The ceramic hybrid bearings roll really smooth. They've been bullet proof since purchased. I climb with them and they are stiff and responsive. I've contacted williams before for servicing and they respond quickly, can't be good customer service. You can't go wrong with their wheels IMHO.


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## backinthesaddle

I have Williams 50mm carbon clinchers, and they've been bulletproof since new. 
I also know Boyd very well, and have seen, held, touched his wheels. They're handbuilt to a high standard here in the US. That being said, I've never ridden a set (hint Boyd...send me a set to test...).

Can't really go wrong either way...


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## fazzman

Love my williams 38c wheels. Hubs are super smooth. Great braking with no pulsing.


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## jtimmer1

Haven't ridden Boyd wheels personally, but I know many who do. I haven't heard anything bad about them, only praises. However, Williams wheels hubs are atrocious.


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## yetigooch

Thanks for all the responses....I've contacted Boyd and he is going to send me pictures of his new wheels with newly designed stickers. Glad to hear that either wheelset will be good.


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## a4blur

I have Boyd 50mm carbon clinchers, the 2nd generation models. With about 1,500 miles on them, they've been bulletproof since new.


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## veloci1

I have been riding my Boyd 50 mm clinchers for the last 3months and they have been great. I am 185 lbs and not a sign of flex.
My teammates have ordered 8 pairs in different configurations and I have yet to hear a single complaint.

Go for the Boyd wheels.


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## yetigooch

veloci1 said:


> I have been riding my Boyd 50 mm clinchers for the last 3months and they have been great. I am 185 lbs and not a sign of flex.
> My teammates have ordered 8 pairs in different configurations and I have yet to hear a single complaint.
> 
> Go for the Boyd wheels.


Thanks for the input. I think I will go for the Boyd wheels. Now the question is do I go with th 58's or 50's.


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## fuzzjunk

I am actually trying to make the same decision. I am trying to decide on rim depth, how much more stiffness can I expect from a 50mm then a 38?


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## bridgearoo

Just a note on my experience with Boyd 58 clinchers. FWIW

I purchased a pair of 58 clinchers from Boyd last fall. I am a larger rider at 6ft 4in and weigh 200 and went over this when buying from Boyd to be sure this was the best fit for me. Upon getting the wheel and riding it for a couple hundred miles I noticed the rear was out of true and I was getting brake rub when climbing. (Yes I took care to install the brakes correctly.) 
Needless to say this was disappointing so I took the wheel to a local shop to re-true on my dime. When attempting to true the wheel and verify the the product appeared to be a good fit for my size and riding style he expressed some concern. 
After communicating this with Boyd he advised to send the wheel back to him and have it re-built.
Living in the midwest and shipping to South Carolina I expected the turn around to be short. This was not the case in that I had to wait a couple of weeks to hear anything about the status of the repair. In discussing the option for refund due to product quality concerns and delay in repair I learned there was a change in wheel builder and that the repaired wheel would be back soon.
Needless to say these issues do not inspire confidence in the product and make me question my purchase with Boyd. (I've been told that his peers use the same wheelset with great success and likely generate much more power than myself). Hopefully this issue is unique. To his credit Boyd has done a decent job in communicating with my about my concerns - save the delay in the rear wheel repair. Due to the riding season ending I've had little opportunity to spend time on the repaired rear wheel and am eager to see if this resolves the issue. If the issue remains I will be in touch with Boyd to look at other options.

I hope this info helps when making such an investment.


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## fuzzjunk

Thank you, that is good to know. I'm looking for the whole package, the product and good customer service.

I still have another month or so to decide, I'll keep doing my research.


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## brians647

bridgearoo said:


> Just a note on my experience with Boyd 58 clinchers. FWIW
> <snipped>


All in all, sounds like a builder who stands by his product and did right by you. Very cool.


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## bridgearoo

brians647 said:


> All in all, sounds like a builder who stands by his product and did right by you. Very cool.


I certainly hope that Boyd can and will stand by his product. However, there are a couple of issues that would prevent me in buying from him again. 
1. The rear wheel came out of true so quickly after purchase and few miles.
2. Rear wheel flex and brake rub. I am concerned that based on my size and riding style the wheelset may not be appropriate for me despite taking the time to clarify these concerns prior to purchase.

I hope these concerns are unique and are resolved once winter breaks and I can get back out on the road. As of today I am concerned about the ability of this product to deliver on my specific riding needs.


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## carlislegeorge

what is the noise level on the williams hubs (i prefer quiet)? the "new technology" model wheels like the 38s is what i am thinking about. anyone know?


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## gumdad

I have a set of Boyd 38mm tubulars and am very happy with them. Called and talked to him on the phone about my desires and he was very kind and informative. Exchanged emails as well, and his replies were always quick and informative. My main use for the wheels is a cross race wheel, although they will do double duty as a road race wheel as well. I wanted the wheel to be really stiff, so we agreed to lace the rear 2X on both sides. Gotta say the wheels are very stiff and light. Not sure you can beat these wheels for the price.


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## fazzman

The hub on the williams wheels is pretty loud. The wheels ride so great i can ignore the noise.


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## Cableguy

Boyd's customer service is amazing and he's a nice guy to deal with. True story, my father who has Boyd's 85mm clincher wheels had a problem with the rear hub - the band that acts as a spring for the things that make the click sound when you coast had broke after about a half year of use. Well he sent Boyd an email about it after he got back from his ride, and before we could even begin to talk about it, literally *15 seconds * later, his phone rang. It was Boyd on the other end. A replacement part was immediately shipped out. Not exagerrating, still can't believe it.


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## brians647

Cableguy said:


> Boyd's customer service is amazing and he's a nice guy to deal with. True story, my father who has Boyd's 85mm clincher wheels had a problem with the rear hub - the band that acts as a spring for the things that make the click sound when you coast had broke after about a half year of use. Well he sent Boyd an email about it after he got back from his ride, and before we could even begin to talk about it, literally *15 seconds * later, his phone rang. It was Boyd on the other end. A replacement part was immediately shipped out. Not exagerrating, still can't believe it.


I think that's badass.
I've dealt with too many clowns in my time, and it's nice to hear more reports of someone doing it right.
Referencing Bridgaroo's experience: Servicing on the part of many builders is lax at best; with bigger companies (Shim, Mavic, Campy), it will take you a heckuva lot longer to get your stuff back than two weeks. More like four in most cases (that was my experience in the fall with Mavic).
The bottom line is: stuff happens - it's understandable. How a person/company deals with it tells the real tale. Good on Boyd.


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## fuzzjunk

Does anyone know the actually weights for the Williams 38mm and Boyd 38mm clinchers?

Manufacturers weight (from website):

Williams 38=1463g
Boyd=1410g


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## coachboyd

I know the answer to that one 
Actually, right after you posted that I laced up a set of the 38mm clinchers and weighed them (it's pretty hard to balance two untensioned wheels on top of another on a scale).


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## fuzzjunk

Thanks coachboyd, that's exactly what I wanted to see.

That's about 70grams difference between the 38mm and 50mm. Is the aero advantage much greater with 50's over the 38?


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## thehook

I can only say. I have dealt with Willams wheels. And they are top shelf! Now I have to resist the urge to buy the System 30........Dam!

Good Luck
James


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## coachboyd

I wouldn't say that it's a huge difference in aerodynamics, but it's also not a big weight difference. We like to tell people that if you're going to have one wheelset that does it all, the 50mm is a good choice. If you are looking for more climbing or like more control in very windy days, then the 38mm might be good for you.


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## metoou2

Do Williams carbon clinchers have a lowered brake track?
Do Boyd carbon clinchers have a lowered brake track?


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## coachboyd

no, neither of us use rims with the lowered braking track.

Some of the first generation Williams (the 50mm) had a lowered braking track, but there was an actual braking surface on top of the rim (not just sanded away). I believe this is when they were using Gigantex rims.


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## metoou2

Why are Token and John Nuegent still living in the past? They both still sell carbon clinchers with lowered brake tracks. Are they joined at the hip with suppliers who can only produce that type of rim?


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## AvantDale

Theres no way any of these guys are going to reveal their sources to a bunch of people and competitors on an internet forum.

You really want to find out? Make a trip to to Taiwan and go to the Taipei bike show.


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## metoou2

@Avantdale
where did I ask for their source? Read my post again.


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## backinthesaddle

coachboyd said:


> no, neither of us use rims with the lowered braking track.
> 
> Some of the first generation Williams (the 50mm) had a lowered braking track, but there was an actual braking surface on top of the rim (not just sanded away). I believe this is when they were using Gigantex rims.


My Williams 50s are lowered brake track hoops...never an issue...and they are Gigantex hoops.


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## kn0bby8

Any input on Williams S30 VS. the Boyd 30 Vitesse?


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## Lectron

Why do none of you use Gigantex?

After running through soo many different rims, there really ain't many 
that can keep up with their price and quality. I especially like their RT series


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## coachboyd

Lectron said:


> Why do none of you use Gigantex?


I have looked at the Gigantex stuff, and thought about a couple of their products. . .but the rims I am using always build up so round and true that it's hard to beat. 

The tubulars that I use are some of the strongest rims I have ever seen (and I have rode just about every brand out there). I just had a race where somebody's skewer got in my front wheel breaking four spokes. One of the spokes didn't break, but the nipple snapped in half, leaving half of it still in the rim. I rebuilt the wheel and still am racing on that rim. I also counted about a dozen companies at Interbike last year using these same tubular rims.

The Gigantex does make nice stuff (although I'll never understand that whirlpool thing), but I am really happy with what we are using... which is good because I have a couple hundred rims about to be delivered.


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## backinthesaddle

kn0bby8 said:


> Any input on Williams S30 VS. the Boyd 30 Vitesse?


Really can't go wrong with either. Pretty much the same wheel...
The difference is that Boyd uses CXRay spokes, which are higher quality and lighter. Boyd also has a new rear hub design coming that'll build into a stiffer wheel.


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## triumph.1

I see where someone stated the williams wheels are loud, but what about the boyds are they quiet or do they have an annoying loud click on coast? The eastons I am using are super smooth and quiet, understandably with a difference in the price point, but I want a quiet wheel.


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## malanb

im lookin at about cosmic sl, superb reputation or boyd 50? for almost everyday use, and some races, group ride, and speed trainng, will be using it about 3 days a week? will the last?


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## Tomtama

triumph.1 said:


> I see where someone stated the williams wheels are loud, but what about the boyds are they quiet or do they have an annoying loud click on coast? The eastons I am using are super smooth and quiet, understandably with a difference in the price point, but I want a quiet wheel.


I have two sets of new Williams wheels, S30 and S38. The rear hub on the S30 is very quiet. Though not as quiet as the rear hub on my 10 year old Velomax Ascents (now Easton). The rear hub on the S38 is loud. To the best of my knowledge the S30 and S38 use the same hubs. I'm not sure why they are different.


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## Dan Gerous

Is rear hub noise really important?  If so, just stop coasting. 

I had some Williams for a while and they made a noticably loud but nice sound when coasting, never bothered me.


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## triumph.1

Dan Gerous said:


> Is rear hub noise really important?  If so, just stop coasting.
> 
> I had some Williams for a while and they made a noticably loud but nice sound when coasting, never bothered me.


I have easton ec90slx and love the super stealth rolling they provide. I am looking for a budget wheel as a secondary set, but would like them fairly quiet. I do have a set of ROL wheels for my backup bike and they are obnoxiously loud. I like quiet stress free riding in my spare time, can't help it.


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## RickJP

Hello everyone!!

I've been researching wheels for a wheels and have decided on the Boyd Rouleur (24F/28R; I'm 197 lbs). Somehow I can't understand paying almost twice for the wheels than what I paid for the bike (I have a 2011 Felt F85), when I'll be upgrading the bike alltogether, in a little over a year. 

I don't race (yet), as I've only got back into cycling 4 months ago after 30 years, but I've already done 2 MC's and will be doing a couple more within the next two months, and I'm doing the century in the Tour de Cure on March 4th (gotta love that So. Fla. weather..lol)

Regarding tires, however, my Felt came with Vittoria Saffiro Pros. They're ok, but I want something lighter (the Zaffiro Pros are 255g) that I can pop on the new Boyds and use strictly for those long rides. I've been looking at several tires and I'm a bit uncertain whether a race tire, such as the Michelin Pro Race 3, or the Kenda K925 Kalientes, or the Vredestein Fortezza TriComps, will be a better choice than something say, a Vittoria Rubino Pro or a Michelin Krylion. 

What do you guys think?


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## Cableguy

RickJP said:


> Regarding tires, however, my Felt came with Vittoria Saffiro Pros. They're ok, but I want something lighter (the Zaffiro Pros are 255g) that I can pop on the new Boyds and use strictly for those long rides. I've been looking at several tires and I'm a bit uncertain whether a race tire, such as the Michelin Pro Race 3, or the Kenda K925 Kalientes, or the Vredestein Fortezza TriComps, will be a better choice than something say, a Vittoria Rubino Pro or a Michelin Krylion.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Personally I would get Conti 4000S's, dependable and also fast. When I was researching rolling resistance tests last year they were towards the very top for clinchers. Also in general I wouldn't be concerned with trying to save 50-100 grams of weight on tire sets, not exactly the best place to try to save weight. As long as it rolls nicely you'll be fine. If you flat in your race, I'm guessing you would have much preferred spending that extra 1 watt of effort to roll the slightly heavier and more durable tires.


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## RickJP

Cableguy said:


> Personally I would get Conti 4000S's, dependable and also fast. When I was researching rolling resistance tests last year they were towards the very top for clinchers. Also in general I wouldn't be concerned with trying to save 50-100 grams of weight on tire sets, not exactly the best place to try to save weight. As long as it rolls nicely you'll be fine. If you flat in your race, I'm guessing you would have much preferred spending that extra 1 watt of effort to roll the slightly heavier and more durable tires.


Hey CG..

Other than the price; what do you see is different between the GP4000 and the GP400s? Seems like the chilli black versions are the same.

Interesting you mention the GP's. Another person had recommended the Maxxis Courchevel and after reading some of the reviews on those tires, many also recommended the GP4000. I have to agree the Contis are a better choice, notwithstanding that both weigh 205g, especially for a heavier rider.


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## Cableguy

RickJP said:


> Hey CG..
> 
> Other than the price; what do you see is different between the GP4000 and the GP400s? Seems like the chilli black versions are the same.
> 
> Interesting you mention the GP's. Another person had recommended the Maxxis Courchevel and after reading some of the reviews on those tires, many also recommended the GP4000. I have to agree the Contis are a better choice, notwithstanding that both weigh 205g, especially for a heavier rider.


I think 4000 only has the black chili compound in the black colored tires, while the 4000S has it in every tire regardless of color. There might be some other small difference, but there is very little if any price difference between the two verisons I always just get the 4000S by default.


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## RickJP

Cableguy said:


> I think 4000 only has the black chili compound in the black colored tires, while the 4000S has it in every tire regardless of color. There might be some other small difference, but there is very little if any price difference between the two verisons I always just get the 4000S by default.


Just ordered a pair through Amazon. $46.95 ea, plus a pair of Continental Supersonic tubes for $16.95 ea, and free 2 day shipping with my prime membership.


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## Cableguy

RickJP said:


> Just ordered a pair through Amazon. $46.95 ea, plus a pair of Continental Supersonic tubes for $16.95 ea, and free 2 day shipping with my prime membership.


Beats going to the store and paying $70-80 a piece!


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## RickJP

Cableguy said:


> Beats going to the store and paying $70-80 a piece!


Plus tax. :yesnod:


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## nightfend

Cableguy said:


> I think 4000 only has the black chili compound in the black colored tires, while the 4000S has it in every tire regardless of color. There might be some other small difference, but there is very little if any price difference between the two verisons I always just get the 4000S by default.


4000S is only available in black. It is exactly the same tire as the regular all black 4000. The only difference is the labeling on the tires.


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## RickJP

nightfend said:


> 4000S is only available in black. It is exactly the same tire as the regular all black 4000. The only difference is the labeling on the tires.


True, but I think what CG wanted to say is the opposite of what he wrote. Since the 4000's (not the 4000S') are available in other colors, only the black 4000 has the chilli compound that's standard in the 4000S.

It's redundant anyway; why not call every color but black a GP4000 and black only the 4000S?

Go figure!


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## NolesOrNothing

Question about Boyd's rear hub -
Are there any issues with wear to the free hub that is caused by the cassette that other hub brands such as WI and AC state they design around with their use of materials?

I'm trying to decide on the Boyd Black & Tan (A23 rim, 24/28 Sapim CX Rays, Brass Nips) or a same spec custom build with WI or AC hubs. Price on the custom build will be $100-200 more than the Boyd's @ $600. I know the difference is in the hub and builder costs. I'm trying to make the same sound decisions as others seem to be facing with this opportunity and still have some dollars left over for other needs, like a quality chainring.

Any input is appreciated.


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## RickJP

NolesOrNothing said:


> Question about Boyd's rear hub -
> Are there any issues with wear to the free hub that is caused by the cassette that other hub brands such as WI and AC state they design around with their use of materials?
> 
> I'm trying to decide on the Boyd Black & Tan (A23 rim, 24/28 Sapim CX Rays, Brass Nips) or a same spec custom build with WI or AC hubs. Price on the custom build will be $100-200 more than the Boyd's @ $600. I know the difference is in the hub and builder costs. I'm trying to make the same sound decisions as others seem to be facing with this opportunity and still have some dollars left over for other needs, like a quality chainring.
> 
> Any input is appreciated.


Boyd is likely to respond to your post on this thread, but you may also wish to email him at [email protected]


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## NolesOrNothing

Thanks RickJP!
I have already been corresponding with Boyd in order to get to my short list and will follow up with him. I was hoping to hear from any of the Boyd wheel owners that have posted earlier in this or other threads.


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## MMinSC

NolesOrNothing said:


> Question about Boyd's rear hub -
> Are there any issues with wear to the free hub that is caused by the cassette that other hub brands such as WI and AC state they design around with their use of materials?
> 
> I'm trying to decide on the Boyd Black & Tan (A23 rim, 24/28 Sapim CX Rays, Brass Nips) or a same spec custom build with WI or AC hubs. Price on the custom build will be $100-200 more than the Boyd's @ $600. I know the difference is in the hub and builder costs. I'm trying to make the same sound decisions as others seem to be facing with this opportunity and still have some dollars left over for other needs, like a quality chainring.
> 
> Any input is appreciated.


All freehubs wear even the ti freehub on WI wheels. It's not enough to prevent getting the cassette off, nor ruin the body. When you take your cassette off, just hit the high spots with a file...


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## billips1002

RickJP said:


> Regarding tires, however, my Felt came with Vittoria Saffiro Pros. They're ok, but I want something lighter (the Zaffiro Pros are 255g) that I can pop on the new Boyds and use strictly for those long rides. I've been looking at several tires and I'm a bit uncertain whether a race tire, such as the Michelin Pro Race 3, or the Kenda K925 Kalientes, or the Vredestein Fortezza TriComps, will be a better choice than something say, a Vittoria Rubino Pro or a Michelin Krylion.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Hi,

I ride Boyd 58 mm carbon clinchers. I have also ridden Mercury and Williams carbon clinchers. The Boyds are lighter and more comfortable on my bike. I prefer them. I am experiencing some problem with freeplay in the rear hub after about 1200 miles. I'll post up when I have some resolution. I just emailed Boyd today.

Regarding tires... I have ridden Vredstein Fortezzas, Gatorskins and Conti GP 4000 S. I got flats all the time with the Vredsteins but they felt good and fast. The Gatorskins I was on rode like hell. I got rid of them as quick as I could (those were on the Williams wheels). They were vibrating my hands numb and I hated them. However it may have been the wheels. 

I will ride nothing other than Conti GP 4000 S tires now. They have great performance and rolling resistance, are comfortable and I get very very few flats. I got flats with my Fortezzas all the time.

I wholeheartedly recommend Boyd carbon clinchers and Conti GP 4000 S tires! I just hope my wheel gets fixed but I have loved my Boyd wheels so far.


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## RickJP

billips1002 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I ride Boyd 58 mm carbon clinchers. I have also ridden Mercury and Williams carbon clinchers. The Boyds are lighter and more comfortable on my bike. I prefer them. I am experiencing some problem with freeplay in the rear hub after about 1200 miles. I'll post up when I have some resolution. I just emailed Boyd today.
> 
> Regarding tires... I have ridden Vredstein Fortezzas, Gatorskins and Conti GP 4000 S. I got flats all the time with the Vredsteins but they felt good and fast. The Gatorskins I was on rode like hell. I got rid of them as quick as I could (those were on the Williams wheels). They were vibrating my hands numb and I hated them. However it may have been the wheels.
> 
> I will ride nothing other than Conti GP 4000 S tires now. They have great performance and rolling resistance, are comfortable and I get very very few flats. I got flats with my Fortezzas all the time.
> 
> I wholeheartedly recommend Boyd carbon clinchers and Conti GP 4000 S tires! I just hope my wheel gets fixed but I have loved my Boyd wheels so far.


I went with the Vitesse alloy, mainly because I wanted to keep my wife in my good grace by not spending 1K in wheels (I was looking at the 38mm carbon clinchers). So, with pads and shipping, $545.00 was not so bad. And I also took the advise of a few other posters and went with the GP4000 S' as well. I've only done about a 1/2 dozen rides on the new wheels/tires, but I have to agree with you on the handling. Just Saturday I went on a group ride that involved crossing the 17th causeway draw bridge in Fort Lauderdale. 17th Street Bridge, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida | Flickr - Photo Sharing! 

It had rained heavily the night before and the streets were still a tad wet. The bridge is about 65' high at the road level and about 1/2 mile from end to end, and while the draw portion is concrete and not meshed steel, the hinges are heavy steel in a saw tooth pattern, and have about a 1" gap between the fixed and draw portions of the bridge. Going over the uphill hinge wasn't bad. But, the hit on the downhill hinge was hard enough to losen up the zip ties that held the wireless sensor of my computer. The tires held beautifully and I didn't lose control, which was a good thing because we were coasting at about 27 mph.


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## 0100

Stupid question on the boyd and williams carbon wheels, are the stickers removable? You know because I want to put zipp sticker on. lol Nah it's just I like the stealth look. 

Also on the boyd hubs are they hybrid ceramic bearings?


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## coachboyd

Our decals are removable although we are working on new "ghosted" decals that will be under the clearcoat. . . .hopefully they will be out soon.

We do not use any form of ceramic bearing and won't even offer it as an upgrade. Do a search here for ceramic bearings and you'll see why.


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## RickJP

0100 said:


> Stupid question on the boyd and williams carbon wheels, are the stickers removable? You know because I want to put zipp sticker on. lol Nah it's just I like the stealth look.
> 
> Also on the boyd hubs are they hybrid ceramic bearings?


I don't know if they're removable, but I believe anythign is possible if you're persistent enough. 

The bearings are not ceramic; they're enduro sealed bearings. The info is on his website.


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## nightfend

Boyd does not use ceramic bearings. Both William and Boyd stickers are easy to remove.


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## 0100

Thanks guys for the info. Yeah I have read about the cons of ceramic.

I didn't see anything on the website about what bearings are used until BAM I went to the front page and it was right there. lol 

Boyd when you say ghosted would that be like a gloss black decal? I think that would look slick on the carbon. Your stuff looks great btw!


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## coachboyd

This is what our ghosted decals will look like. It will be dark grey lettering on a black background. we are hoping to have them available late February as we're getting the first samples in soon to pick a final "ghosting" level on the letters.


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## sometimerider

coachboyd said:


> This is what our ghosted decals will look like. It will be dark grey lettering on a black background. we are hoping to have them available late February as we're getting the first samples in soon to pick a final "ghosting" level on the letters.


Like.

Will that setup also be used on the alloy wheels? (I'm not a carbon guy.)


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## 0100

Now that is what I'm talking about. I'd rock that!


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## Yerma

I realize alloy nipple can be more problematic but I'm surprised Boyd doesn't offer them as an option. I put over 12k on a pair of record/mavic open pros/revolutions with alloy nips and at 170+ ibs never had an issue. It used to be the goal was to reduce that rim/rotational wt. and alloy was a good way to do it.


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## coachboyd

Alloy nipples would only save about 30 grams for the entire wheelset. While they can last for certain conditions, they won't for other people. Plus with the high tensions if you ever need to true up the wheel there's a chance of rounding off the nipple. For only 30 grams, going with extra durability is a much better option.


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## dcorn

Those ghosted decals look amazing. That's exactly what I expected them to look like before I scrolled down to the actual pictures. I would have removed the original decals, but I love the way the ghost decals look. 

Hope to see those up on your site soon, I just need to decide between the 38 and 50mm clinchers.


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## nightfend

Wow, those ghosted wheels look great. Can't wait to buy a set.


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## cdhbrad

That's why I use brass nipples in all the wheels I build / have built for me. I'm replacing the alloy nipples in some 5 year old Zipps right now for all the reasons you mentioned. Plus, I live near salt water (Gulf of Mexico) and want to do all I can to avoid the corrosion issues with alloy.


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## Special Eyes

I have a chance to get some Williams System 20 carbon wheels on an S-Works. I weigh 175, and am not a very strong rider (but can still jump on it even at 60 yrs). Their site rates them to 170# riders. That ain't much. I hate living at the limit, and these wheels are very light and fragile. Am I crazy to go with them?


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## Christopaul

Both Williams and Boyd carbon wheels present real challenges when changing a tire. It takes me about 5 minutes to change a standard clincher. The Boyd and Williams takes about 45 min to change a flat with friends to assist and even with the use of a Kook Stop Tire Bead Tool. This renders clincher convenience into an oxymoron. Sorry got off track...they both roll great and hold speed superbly.


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## fdghsrtws

Christopaul said:


> Both Williams and Boyd carbon wheels present real challenges when changing a tire. It takes me about 5 minutes to change a standard clincher. The Boyd and Williams takes about 45 min to change a flat with friends to assist and even with the use of a Kook Stop Tire Bead Tool. This renders clincher convenience into an oxymoron. Sorry got off track...they both roll great and hold speed superbly.


Can I ask what tires you're using?

Chuck


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## Christopaul

The Boyds' came with Michelin Pro Race 3's, the Williams had Vredestein tri-comps. Other folks have encountered similar problems with different tires and have tried soap and water and other tire changing strategies and still shared comparable frustrations...you may think, "oh I can handle that" but when you are in the moment, you may wonder why you spent $1k to be "alligator wrestling" instead of riding...


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## fdghsrtws

Thanks for the reply... 
I'm between williams/boyd right now, plan on purchasing in march with a powertap build, probably with Conti 4000s's.

Maybe I'll fill up one of my bottles with Dawn. Hopefully I'll remember it's not gatorade...


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## Christopaul

lol! (a goo flask with dawn is actually not a bad idea


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## dcorn

Christopaul said:


> Both Williams and Boyd carbon wheels present real challenges when changing a tire. It takes me about 5 minutes to change a standard clincher. The Boyd and Williams takes about 45 min to change a flat with friends to assist and even with the use of a Kook Stop Tire Bead Tool. This renders clincher convenience into an oxymoron. Sorry got off track...they both roll great and hold speed superbly.


So what exactly do you think the reason is behind this issue?


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## Christopaul

Everything seems to have a trade off of sorts. In this case, its probably to give the bead extra reinforcement in order to prevent delimitation. Also the carbon can get very hot thereby causing the rubber tire to get hot. The tight fit is probably to insure that the tire doesn't come off. The inconvenience is probably sacrificed to increase safety.


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## Dan Gerous

Special Eyes said:


> I have a chance to get some Williams System 20 carbon wheels on an S-Works. I weigh 175, and am not a very strong rider (but can still jump on it even at 60 yrs). Their site rates them to 170# riders. That ain't much. I hate living at the limit, and these wheels are very light and fragile. Am I crazy to go with them?


I had some Williams Carbon 20 clinchers....

First, the decals used to be removable, quite easily. Newer ones are under the clearcoat so not really removable.

I weigh around 155lbs and I thought the rear wheel was quite flexy, I really had to open my brakes much more than I like them at the lever so the rear wheel wouldn't rub when I sprinted or climbed hard, especially out of the saddle. But the real reason I had the wheels but don't anymore is that I melted the front rim... twice. The first was from a bad batch I was told, after the second one, I was told the 20's had issues... and was offered a switch to another model or a refund... I chose the refund.

Now I don't want to say don't buy the wheels, but I wouldn't recommend them to you at your weight (even without the melting rim issue) as you'll probably feel the flex much more than I did. And if going for the 20's, I would ask if they changed the rim since this summer (the second wheel I had was sent to me mid-summer 2011).

To Williams credit, he was very helpful and quick to deal with. Kudos to the company for their service... but I feel that you do get what you pay for, if the price is too good to be true, it probably isn't... so I'm back to a bit heavier but similarly priced Ksyrium SL's and Hed Ardennes now.

I also thought the tires were hard to change on them... but I consider 5 minutes to change a tire a very long time. On most wheels, it takes about a minute or two max without tire levers.


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## MikeMiranda

I've been emailing Boyd cycling he mentioned that will be releasing a new wheel set soon, 23mm wide, 28mm deep rim that will be right around the same weight as the current Vitesse. The logos will be laser etched onto the rim instead of using decals so that should make for an easy to clean rim without worrying about the decals peeling off (and it'll save some weight)


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## jcgill

Mike, how wide are the current Vitesse wheels? Is the hoop and stickers the only thing changing?


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## Christopaul

*Another option to consider...*

For lightweight carbon clinchers, you can't go wrong with Bontrager's XXX Race Lite wheel set. They weigh about 1250 gr and feel like your wheels have rockets. There is no official weight limitation and they don't have delimitation issues. The only downside is price at $2400 msrp. For a carbon clincher for under $500 you might want to consider the Shimano RS 80. These have most of the attributes of the carbon Dura Ace C24's at just a little more weight but a lot cheaper. They also have an alloy brake track so you don't have delimination issues or brake "re-positioning" issues. A number of riders with the San Jose Bike Club have the Williams system 30's and they sing praise for these wheels (which they use for training & racing).


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## Sebastionmerckx

I was getting ready to order a pair of carbon clinchers off Boyd tonight but after seeing those ghost graphics, I will most certainly be waiting until those come out..That's an uber sexy look.


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## MikeMiranda

jcgill said:


> Mike, how wide are the current Vitesse wheels? Is the hoop and stickers the only thing changing?


Not sure


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## mcr23

triumph.1 said:


> I see where someone stated the williams wheels are loud, but what about the boyds are they quiet or do they have an annoying loud click on coast? The eastons I am using are super smooth and quiet, understandably with a difference in the price point, but I want a quiet wheel.


I was actually hoping to hear the Boyd freehub on the 58s is as loud as the Williams S58. Anyone know?


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## looigi

Christopaul said:


> For lightweight carbon clinchers, you can't go wrong with Bontrager's XXX Race Lite wheel set. They weigh about 1250 gr...


You got a link to those? Didn't see em on the Bontrager site.


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## bhayes505

looigi said:


> You got a link to those? Didn't see em on the Bontrager site.


Bontrager: Race XXX Lite Clincher (Model #08255)


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## pauljra

Curious everyones thoughts on whether to go with Williams 85mm or Boyd 85mm? From the research I have done, it seems like a safe bet with either. 150lbs triathlete and going to have the wheels built up with a Ptap. Really appreciate any insight. PC


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## cwdzoot

+ 1 on the ghosted decals - they take it up a notch.


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## nightfend

pauljra said:


> Curious everyones thoughts on whether to go with Williams 85mm or Boyd 85mm? From the research I have done, it seems like a safe bet with either. 150lbs triathlete and going to have the wheels built up with a Ptap. Really appreciate any insight. PC


Both wheels are pretty similar. The differences being that Williams uses ceramic bearings, and Boyd uses better CX-Ray spokes. Boyd also uses a lighter weight hub on the front wheel.


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## pauljra

nightfend said:


> Both wheels are pretty similar. The differences being that Williams uses ceramic bearings, and Boyd uses better CX-Ray spokes. Boyd also uses a lighter weight hub on the front wheel.



Thank you for the response. From what I have read, it seems to be pretty much a toss up between the two.


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## prmooney

I've been riding Williams Wheels since 2008. I've trained almost exclusively on the Williams S30x wheels this entire time. I've raced on both their carbon clinchers and their tubulars. I've even rolled their disc in a few different TT's. I wholeheartedly endorse all of their wheels I've ever ridden.

I ride a bit more and a bit harder than the average guy. I also tend to search out pretty ridiculous roads/trails to take my bike on. These wheels have taken all the punishment I've dished out in training and racing, both road and cross, over the last 4 years. No broken spokes. No cracked wheels. The only exception to this is when I ran over a front wheel with my car... Alas.

Not only do I think they make a great product, but their replacement policy and customer service is so good it's borderline ridiculous. They certainly know how to keep a customer happy. I send all my family (brother and cousin) and friends (countless) to Williams when they're looking to upgrade their wheels.


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## todibble

I've ridden lots of the Williams wheels and have never had anything but great experiences with them. I break everything but their 38's and 58's have held up. 

@nightfend mentioned that the spokes on the Williams aren't as good as CX Ray. What makes the CX Ray's better? They might be a little lighter, but we are talking 5-10g for the wheel, right? The spokes used on Williams are great and have held up under much abuse by me. 

The hubs are also pretty fantastic, especially the current generation. Bearings are butter after rain and dirt rides (yes, dirt). 

On top of that, their customer service is top notch. Seems like they actually want you to have a great ride every time you go out and will go out of their way to make it happen. 

Just my $.02


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## bkmuggs

I have been looking at the Boyd Cycling wheels and they appear to be a stiff wheel that will hold up to my 180+lbs stature. As Sebastionmerckx mentioned, the graphics sound pretty cool. I was speaking to Boyd and he said they have decals that look like the laser etching available now, instead of the white. I would love to get a pair! Does anyone know about the buy 5 pairs, get 20% off discount? I've already got 1 other person that wants some, let me know if you're interested in saving 20% off of the already great priced wheels.


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## pauljra

bkmuggs said:


> I have been looking at the Boyd Cycling wheels and they appear to be a stiff wheel that will hold up to my 180+lbs stature. As Sebastionmerckx mentioned, the graphics sound pretty cool. I was speaking to Boyd and he said they have decals that look like the laser etching available now, instead of the white. I would love to get a pair! Does anyone know about the buy 5 pairs, get 20% off discount? I've already got 1 other person that wants some, let me know if you're interested in saving 20% off of the already great priced wheels.



I am torn between Williams and Boyd, but will definitely pull the trigger on a pair of Boyd 85s with P.tap if we can get the 20%. Essentially I am just waiting for a deciding factor and this would definitely be it. So if Boyd will go for it, I'm in. Thanks for taking the lead, Paul


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## bkmuggs

...and then there were four! I'll let you know if I find more, as I'm sure you'll do the same. I'd give you my email address, but apparently I need at least 10 posts before I can send a private message. I really don't want the whole world getting my email.  Maybe you can send me yours and I'll reply with mine. Thanks!


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## coachboyd

Hey guys,
I do appreciate this, but the 20% deal is a team deal. We need for the orders to be from the same team to qualify. The reasoning behind this is that it's advertising for us, when people see 5 guys with the same kit and same wheels it gets attention. We can't just open up the team deal to any group of 5 people who get together.

Sorry for any confusion on that part.


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## bkmuggs

Thanks for clearing that up Boyd. I'm on a team of 13, how lucky (lol), with only 3 team members having interest in buying new wheels. The reviews on your wheels are impressive. I will pay full price if need be and try to convince another 2 members on the team to do so as well. Sorry about the confusion.

Do you have a timeframe as to when the laser etched wheels, as MikeMiranda menitoned, will be ready?


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## coachboyd

We just started the pre-sale on the new Vitesse today (on our website). Rims are expected in within a week and then we'll start building them. We are hoping to start shipping out next week. The laser etched is only available on the new alloy wheelset.

Thanks for being understanding on the team program!


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## pauljra

coachboyd said:


> Hey guys,
> I do appreciate this, but the 20% deal is a team deal. We need for the orders to be from the same team to qualify. The reasoning behind this is that it's advertising for us, when people see 5 guys with the same kit and same wheels it gets attention. We can't just open up the team deal to any group of 5 people who get together.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion on that part.



Totally understand and had a feeling that was a case.


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## dcorn

Boyd, any update on the ghost graphics? Looking to purchase some carbon clinchers really soon.


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## simnorm

love the look of ghost graphics


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## CAADEL

coachboyd said:


> We just started the pre-sale on the new Vitesse today (on our website). Rims are expected in within a week and then we'll start building them. We are hoping to start shipping out next week. The laser etched is only available on the new alloy wheelset.


I remember there was a white 30mm rim version. Do you plan to offer white rims this year? 
I really like the vitesse but I would also like them to match with my bike's color (red-white) 

Thanks!

PS
Is the $500 price for a single wheel or a pair?

PS2
Is the vitesse rear hub quiet like a shimano hub or is it noisy like say a campagnolo hub?


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## coachboyd

Ghosted graphics should be coming soon, we were hoping to have them by now but the first samples were wrong so it added a bit of time.

The Vitesse will not have the white rim option, it didn't sell enough to warrant keeping them in stock, especially with the higher cost of the powder coating. The price is for the pair of wheels.

We have a new freehub that can be either loud of quiet depending on the type of grease or lube you put on the pawls. There are springs under each pawl to make sure they engage even if there's a heavy grease used.


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## CAADEL

That's a fast reply! Thanks coach Boyd! 

I definitely want a quiet hub. Do I have to mention it when I order them or do you make them quiet "by default"?


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## coachboyd

The quiet hub would just need to be taken apart and then have the grease added. The grease will dampen the sounds of the pawls hitting the teeth on the inside of the hub. It won't be completely silent, but pretty quiet.


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## jnbrown

I am wondering how Boyd / Williams type wheels compare aerodynamically to the higher end wheels like Zipp FC and Enve. I keep reading how Firecrest greatly reduces the effect of crosswinds. A big reason to get carbon wheels is the reduced aerodynamic drag and I don't want to get one that performs realtively poorly in that dept.


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## CAADEL

coachboyd said:


> The quiet hub would just need to be taken apart and then have the grease added. The grease will dampen the sounds of the pawls hitting the teeth on the inside of the hub. It won't be completely silent, but pretty quiet.


coachboyd is this going to make the hubs spin slower due to more amount of grease than what is usually used?


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## MMinSC

jnbrown said:


> I am wondering how Boyd / Williams type wheels compare aerodynamically to the higher end wheels like Zipp FC and Enve. I keep reading how Firecrest greatly reduces the effect of crosswinds. A big reason to get carbon wheels is the reduced aerodynamic drag and I don't want to get one that performs realtively poorly in that dept.


Aero is highly subjective. Every wheel maker publishes data that shows their wheels in the best light.

A wheel that is aero from one direction may suck from another.

And get the reduced crosswind argument out of your head. I rode 404FC wheels for an extended period last summer. Sure, they're stiff and fast, but I can tell you from experience that they are HORRIBLE in stiff crosswinds. There were moments that I thought I was going to have the bike blown out from under me.


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## dcorn

Sounds good. I thought the graphic was actually just a black spot on the wheel that outlined the BOYD lettering, where the carbon showed through. You're saying it's actually grey paint, then black paint? 

Actually, I think it would look great just having the same decal you do now, but in black or dark grey. Or under the clearcoat would be fine, just much more subtle than the white.


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## MikeMiranda

Such a hard choice between the new vitesse wheels or 50mm carbon rims


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## keihoop

*so whats the bottom line on Rider weight here*

Obviously alot of love for both brands but if we just isolate one issue here - rider weight, I am curious what the net answer is. 

Coach, I see you've chimed in on a number of topics so I hope you'll throw in on this too. 

For a Clydesdale rider 190-220lbs... looking at either of the Brands for a 58MM Carbon Clincher is it as simple as using the increased spoke count recommended on front and back? Anyone have hands on experience? 

and as an extension of that, was there ever a remedy offered up to the person who said it now takes him 45MINUTES TO CHANGE A FLAT?? That seems crazy!

thx.


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## scottie

Do the 50mm Boyd clinchers require a spacer with a 10 speed cassette? Anyone know the rim width as compared to the Mavic Carbone SL?


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## dkilburn

*Braking - Damp to wet*

Hey there, 
How does the braking in damp to wet compare? How different from the Mavic SL's? 
I want to switch to a more deeper wheel set. 
Thanks, 
.


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## coachboyd

keihoop said:


> Obviously alot of love for both brands but if we just isolate one issue here - rider weight, I am curious what the net answer is.
> 
> Coach, I see you've chimed in on a number of topics so I hope you'll throw in on this too.
> 
> For a Clydesdale rider 190-220lbs... looking at either of the Brands for a 58MM Carbon Clincher is it as simple as using the increased spoke count recommended on front and back? Anyone have hands on experience?
> 
> and as an extension of that, was there ever a remedy offered up to the person who said it now takes him 45MINUTES TO CHANGE A FLAT?? That seems crazy!
> 
> thx.


Sure, I can help. Rider weight limit depends a lot on riding style and terrain. A triathlete in Florida is going to put a lot less stress than somebody who races a lot of crits or does a lot of hilly terrain riding. Increasing the spoke count definitely helps as you are taking the total load on the wheels and distributing it between more more spokes (so each spoke has less force on it). There are other things that should happen as well such as good flange spacing and high spoke tension to ensure longevity of the wheels and proper stiffness. Going to a higher spoke count wheel usually adds about 40-50 grams depending on the type of spoke used which is why we usually recommend the higher spoke count for anybody around 180 or above.

As for the tire situation, I think 45 minutes was a definite exaggeration. I just got about 4 sets of wheels ready for teammates to use over the weekend and installing 4 sets of tires took me less than half an hour. Using the flat tire levers helps a ton (I usually use two to guide the tire over) and just going slow to get the tire over the hook. I have found that using a Maxxis Courchevel tire is probably the easiest tire to mount. I can put them on the rims without any tire levers, they also ride very nice, have good longevity, and handle great. 

Also, a spacer is needed with 10speed Shimano cassettes, this spacer will come with the cassette. No spacer is needed for Sram.


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## nightfend

dkilburn said:


> Hey there,
> How does the braking in damp to wet compare? How different from the Mavic SL's?
> I want to switch to a more deeper wheel set.
> Thanks,
> .


Mavic uses an aluminum braking track, so the Mavic's are superior in wet braking conditions. Well, except for the Cosmic Ultimates, which are all carbon and have the same disadvantage of the carbon braking.


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## mcr23

coachboyd, any possibility in getting 88s with a lower spoke count? I'm 148-150.


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## ms6073

mcr23 said:


> coachboyd, any possibility in getting 88s with a lower spoke count? I'm 148-150.


Also, what about higher spoke count, 24-26mm wide tubulars in 38mm or 50mm depth for disc cross wheels?


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## dkilburn

*Big Difference?*



nightfend said:


> Mavic uses an aluminum braking track, so the Mavic's are superior in wet braking conditions. Well, except for the Cosmic Ultimates, which are all carbon and have the same disadvantage of the carbon braking.


 Hey there, Is it a big difference in braking or just a little? 
Thanks,


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## nightfend

Carbon is funny in the wet. Usually, if you lightly drag your brakes for a few seconds, then apply full force, they work pretty decent. Sometimes, they will act a little grabby, and you'll go from a light braking force to a strong braking force. Aluminum is more predictable when braking in wet, though skimming your brakes for a few seconds with aluminum is a good idea as well.


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## fdghsrtws

I ordered a set of 58mm clinchers with a powertap g3 from Boyd this week. Ghosted graphics seem to be available now...

Chuck


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## twiggy

I know this is a cliche question but I can't make up my mind... I was pretty much sold on ordering a set of Boyd 50mm Tubulars (Or Maybe a 50/58mm mixed set), when I realized that Williams is still offering their 58mm wheels with a free set of Vittoria Tubular tires for just about the same price. I personally feel that the Boyds are likely a marginally better wheel (Better spokes/nipples), but the free tires sure would make this purchase easier on the wallet.... Any thoughts on what to do?? I know its maybe apples to oranges...


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## rearviewmirror

I'm fairly new to these brands, but they intrigue me now. I don't need $2k+ wheels, well I want them but my wife disagrees. My question around Boyd and Williams is this, where are they made? If assembled in the US, where are the carbon rims manufactured? It's OK if the answer is Taiwan/China, I don't expect them to be hand laid in the USA, but I'm just curious about the country of origin on everything I buy. Also, which hubs do they run to be specific? Are they just rebranded Novatech or Bitex?


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## MikeMiranda

Rebranded bitex


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## cwdzoot

Expect some exciting stuff from Boyd in the months to come. I went for a ride with him today and he is all over it with new technologies. Rims will still be made in Asia "same factory making Felt bikes and other big brands" but Boyd has some exciting and innovative input into the design. Also something new and "cool" with carbon specific brake pads.


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## MikeMiranda

Interesting


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## twiggy

cwdzoot said:


> Expect some exciting stuff from Boyd in the months to come. I went for a ride with him today and he is all over it with new technologies. Rims will still be made in Asia "same factory making Felt bikes and other big brands" but Boyd has some exciting and innovative input into the design. Also something new and "cool" with carbon specific brake pads.


And therein lies the problem!... Here I want to buy a new set of wheels and I just can't make myself do it knowing that he'll be coming out with a new design so soon!... From what he told me though we probably shouldn't expect anything new until 2013 though!


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## krimoc

Yes, the ghosted graphics are smokin'!


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## Andrew L

coachboyd said:


> Also, a spacer is needed with 10speed Shimano cassettes, this spacer will come with the cassette. No spacer is needed for Sram.


You'll have to forgive me I am a noob! Is this pretty easy to do? Are there any negatives in having a spacer?

Thanks!


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## OzGeo

Andrew L said:


> You'll have to forgive me I am a noob! Is this pretty easy to do? Are there any negatives in having a spacer?
> 
> Thanks!


A spacer looks identical to a large diameter flat washer. Simply slip the spacer over the freehub (only if required), then slip the cassette (may have some individual sprockets) which are keyed (notches so you can't get the order wrong), then screw in the lockring. You'll need a lockring tool for the last part. 

To remove a cassette you'll need a lockring tool and chain whip which stops the freehub from spinning as you loosen the lockring. In the past, I've held a towel over the cassette to stop it moving when I didn't have a chain whip available, e.g. when travelling and I don't have all my tools with me.


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## Andrew L

Would it be better to use the 23mm Conti 4000S that I currently have or buy 25mm tires for the Vitesse? I've never ridden on 23mm wheels before. Also, does it require a lot of brake and derailleur adjustment to swap between a 19mm and a 23mm wheel?


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## nightfend

No derailleur adjustment needed. But, you will have to adjust your brakes, or at least open the quick release on the brake.


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