# Two Tour stages to be run without radios



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

YEAH!!!!11!11!!!!!1

2 not-so-flat stages.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/two-tour-stages-to-be-run-without-radios

This will be interesting...


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## that guy again (Jul 14, 2008)

I am very much in favor of this. I think the radios are the number one thing making cycling less fun from a spectating point of view. Let them have all the techno-wiz-bang bikes they want, but don't take away the strategy by letting someone in a car determine what happens in a race.


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## loudog (Jul 22, 2008)

this is pretty cool.


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## brentster (Jul 12, 2007)

Should be pretty interesting.


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## Sojourneyman (Jun 22, 2007)

One of the days is Bastille day...seems like they're fishing for a frenchman win


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Sojourneyman said:


> One of the days is Bastille day...seems like they're fishing for a frenchman win


How will the absence of radios enhance French chances?


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## Andrew1 (May 27, 2009)

harlond said:


> How will the absence of radios enhance French chances?


Lots of Frenchies in a big breakaway + no radio = less information and coordination among the teams of the sprinters (with regards to time gaps, names of riders in the break etc), leading to a higher probability of the break staying away.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> YEAH!!!!11!11!!!!!1
> 
> 2 flat stages.
> 
> ...


flat?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

It doesn't say what the penalty is for using a radio. If it is only a small fine, like for wearing an unapproved jersey, then I expect teams to ignore the rule.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

on closer reading, the UCI approved the possibility, but ASO hasn't said it's definite yet. 

that stage profile looks perfect for a break to stay away, even with radios


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## wetpaint (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm excited to see this, I hate it how they can reel the break in at 5k to go with radios. Hopefully it will make the riders make decisions rather than the team car making them for them


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i dont know if any team would let a break get away on these days. knowing that you wont be able to know when to reel people in might make the group chase every break that tries to form.

or some underthetable deals could be made that morning...

astana better hope horner is up and riding again...


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

It seems to be an article of faith with many people that radios reduce the chances of successful breakaways. But in the recently-concluded Giro, 5 stages were won by riders in a breakaway. When you eliminate the mountaintop finishes and the time trials, half of the stages were won on breakaways. In the recently concluded Dauphine, 4 of 6 non-TT stages were won on breakaways. If the use of radios is preventing breakaways, it's hard to see from these examples.

If you have lots of French riders in the breakaway, that obviously increases the chances of a French winner. If the sprinters' teams don't cooperate, that increases the chance of a breakaway winner. But that's true irrespective of whether you have radios.

Many informed people believe radios are a problem, so I'm probably just missing the boat here, but the case that they are suppressing breakaways doesn't seem very compelling to me.


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## ronbo613 (Jan 19, 2009)

They'll just use cell phones instead.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

while stages may have been won by breakaways, the race was not decided by breakaways. the group was able to limit the damage done by the breakaways without having to shut them down completely.

riders will still be able to get general race info by going back to team cars. so this will really put the hurt on teh water carriers.



harlond said:


> It seems to be an article of faith with many people that radios reduce the chances of successful breakaways. But in the recently-concluded Giro, 5 stages were won by riders in a breakaway. When you eliminate the mountaintop finishes and the time trials, half of the stages were won on breakaways. In the recently concluded Dauphine, 4 of 6 non-TT stages were won on breakaways. If the use of radios is preventing breakaways, it's hard to see from these examples.
> 
> If you have lots of French riders in the breakaway, that obviously increases the chances of a French winner. If the sprinters' teams don't cooperate, that increases the chance of a breakaway winner. But that's true irrespective of whether you have radios.
> 
> Many informed people believe radios are a problem, so I'm probably just missing the boat here, but the case that they are suppressing breakaways doesn't seem very compelling to me.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

harlond said:


> It seems to be an article of faith with many people that radios reduce the chances of successful breakaways. But in the recently-concluded Giro, 5 stages were won by riders in a breakaway. When you eliminate the mountaintop finishes and the time trials, half of the stages were won on breakaways. In the recently concluded Dauphine, 4 of 6 non-TT stages were won on breakaways. If the use of radios is preventing breakaways, it's hard to see from these examples.
> 
> If you have lots of French riders in the breakaway, that obviously increases the chances of a French winner. If the sprinters' teams don't cooperate, that increases the chance of a breakaway winner. But that's true irrespective of whether you have radios.
> 
> Many informed people believe radios are a problem, so I'm probably just missing the boat here, but the case that they are suppressing breakaways doesn't seem very compelling to me.



It's not that breaks never succeed; it's more that only certain types of breaks, with certain types of riders, on certain types of stages. It's predictable: the stage profile has to be just right, the mix of riders in the break can't have any gc danger men, etc.

And it's also a case of the team leaders, gc contenders, not having to really risk anything on most days. 

I suspect that without radios, a break might go that contains danger men, and you'll see one or more gc contenders isolated, or gapped, or at the very least some awesome racing as people realize they've missed an important move and have to boogie.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

weltyed said:


> while stages may have been won by breakaways, the race was not decided by breakaways. the group was able to limit the damage done by the breakaways without having to shut them down completely.


Is your contention that in the pre-radio era, the GC in stage races was more frequently decided by a breakaway, rather than by TTs and mountaintop finishes? If it was common for this happen, I don't know about it, which is certainly possible. Examples? I know about Pereiro (with radios) and Walkoviak (without, I suppose).


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> It's not that breaks never succeed; it's more that only certain types of breaks, with certain types of riders, on certain types of stages. It's predictable: the stage profile has to be just right, the mix of riders in the break can't have any gc danger men, etc.
> 
> And it's also a case of the team leaders, gc contenders, not having to really risk anything on most days.
> 
> I suspect that without radios, a break might go that contains danger men, and you'll see one or more gc contenders isolated, or gapped, or at the very least some awesome racing as people realize they've missed an important move and have to boogie.


so the general assumption here is that the average team of cat 4 riders is better to see who goes up the road in a stage race than the pros?


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Of course, this could mean they start hauling their asses off and chase the break like hell from the 50k mark (50k after the start, not 50k to go) and hence, no one gets away. Could make for a day of crazy intense pacing indeed.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

weltyed said:


> i dont know if any team would let a break get away on these days. knowing that you wont be able to know when to reel people in might make the group chase every break that tries to form.
> 
> or some underthetable deals could be made that morning...
> 
> astana better hope horner is up and riding again...


Horner is in the selection but he's fighting for his spot together with 6 other riders for the 3 remaining places on the Astana squad.

6 confirmed: Lance, Alberto, Levi, Andreas, Yaroslav, Haimar. 

Seems pretty much fair to me that those 6 are definitely in. Horner has Brajkovic and Noval and Paulinho (IIRC) to fight with amongst a few more.I'd say Horner should be the surest to get that one out of 3 remaining slots if he's recovered well enough.

I'm surprised Chechu isn't riding the Tour with Lance. Just thought he would. Guess he'd do the Vuelta instead. Either that or, he didn't wanna be part of a Tour in which Lance didn't win!


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

This is a really interesting step in the right? direction, they're also even not ruling out the possibility of banning them from the whole tour  that would really rufffle a few feathers of some trains I mean teams :wink5:


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

harlond said:


> Is your contention that in the pre-radio era, the GC in stage races was more frequently decided by a breakaway, rather than by TTs and mountaintop finishes? If it was common for this happen, I don't know about it, which is certainly possible. Examples? I know about Pereiro (with radios) and Walkoviak (without, I suppose).


i was speaking to this years giro, as someone else mentioned. breakways survived, but they werent race-breaking breakaways. if there were some GC contenders in those breaks, they would have chased harder. knowing there arent GC hopefuls in a break, you can chase just hard enough to limit the damage.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

wetpaint said:


> I'm excited to see this, I hate it how they can reel the break in at 5k to go with radios. Hopefully it will make the riders make decisions rather than the team car making them for them


Umm, won't the motorcycles be there showing time splits?

They'll know the gaps and stuff.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

bas said:


> Umm, won't the motorcycles be there showing time splits?
> 
> They'll know the gaps and stuff.


Umm, yes........ but the riders will have to communicate this with each other, no team director to calculate times, rider names/teams etc and just give orders over the radio... they will have to THINK & make DECISIONS as well as ride. I think this will be great!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

pedalruns said:


> Umm, yes........ but the riders will have to communicate this with each other, no team director to calculate times, rider names/teams etc and just give orders over the radio... they will have to THINK & make DECISIONS as well as ride. I think this will be great!


this is not rocket surgery. you guys honestly believe a schleck or a contador can just slide away in a rogue break?


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

no Den, not saying that. 

but recall the year they ran a stage across the cobbles, and Postal got to the front and drilled it, standard classics-style racing... but several of the climber-types were caught out.

or, I think it was Paris-Nice last year, was it CSC on a windy stage that drilled it and gapped some gc contenders?

and I seem to recall some Spanish dude... Pereiro.. he ended up doing ok with a long break...

so if that can happen _with_ radios, what can happen without a radio?


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

den bakker said:


> so the general assumption here is that the average team of cat 4 riders is better to see who goes up the road in a stage race than the pros?


I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but (other significant differences aside), there's a big difference between dealing with breaks in a stage race vs. a single road race.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

Would love to see it raced without radios.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

I like how they are going to "try" it for 2 stages to see how it unfolds...

Chad


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I'll be looking forward to these stages.


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## ejh (Oct 31, 2007)

dagger said:


> Would love to see it raced without radios.


+1000, just say no to radios


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> no Den, not saying that.
> 
> but recall the year they ran a stage across the cobbles, and Postal got to the front and drilled it, standard classics-style racing... but several of the climber-types were caught out.
> 
> ...


It's not obvious to me that the case against radios is improved by pointing to great racing that occurred with radios. But WTH, if people want it, why not.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

weltyed said:


> i was speaking to this years giro, as someone else mentioned. breakways survived, but they werent race-breaking breakaways. if there were some GC contenders in those breaks, they would have chased harder. knowing there arent GC hopefuls in a break, you can chase just hard enough to limit the damage.


There's no such thing as a 'race breaking break' in a propper stage race simply because the only people 'allowed' to get in a break are precisely the ones who have no chance at GC


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

muscleendurance said:


> There's no such thing as a 'race breaking break' in a propper stage race simply because the only people 'allowed' to get in a break are precisely the ones who have no chance at GC


Not entirely true. Ref. Pereiro, as mentioned above. He went off the front and never came back. Eventually (very much later, after much courtroom drama, and many bits of computer language burned in the internets) won the yellow jersey.

JSR


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

muscleendurance said:


> There's no such thing as a 'race breaking break' in a propper stage race simply because the only people 'allowed' to get in a break are precisely the ones who have no chance at GC


In addition to the Oscar Pereiro event, recall when the Tour of Georgia peleton let that breakaway get a ridiculous lead, which led to Brajkovič taking the GC. Brajkovič, at the time, and even now would be considered as someone "with a chance" for the GC.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

and ref this year's Tour of Cali... bad weather, non-functioning communications, and Mancebo got the leader's jersey.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

I hope it sticks. I have a personal loathing for race radios.


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

I am all for no radios - but we still have team cars that will be flying all over the place informing the riders of time gaps, who is in the breaks etc.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pdh777 said:


> I am all for no radios - but we still have team cars that will be flying all over the place informing the riders of time gaps, who is in the breaks etc.



Not really team cars can't advance past Com 2 at the head of the caravan so unless the riders drop to the back and call the car up there is no way for the cars to talks to them.

Should make for some interesting racing at least I hope.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

In a radio-less situation, would the breakaway still get time updates from the guy sitting on the back of the motorcycle with the chalkboard? Or would that be eliminated too?


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

ronbo613 said:


> They'll just use cell phones instead.


I was just thinking that. We're starting to get rid of handsets for drivers, can you imagine the crashes when a couple of dozen riders reach for phones in the peloton simultaneously?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> no Den, not saying that.
> 
> but recall the year they ran a stage across the cobbles, and Postal got to the front and drilled it, standard classics-style racing... but several of the climber-types were caught out.
> 
> ...


Just curious, did postal and CSC communicate via radio? Did that help in the decision to drill it in the crosswind? 
Did they continue to hammer because there were told who made the split and who did not?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Undecided said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but (other significant differences aside), there's a big difference between dealing with breaks in a stage race vs. a single road race.


other than the fact that cat 4s also have stage races: should that be understood as you don't think radios matter in one day races?


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

den bakker said:


> other than the fact that cat 4s also have stage races: should that be understood as you don't think radios matter in one day races?


You're right, of course, but I don't think of stage racing as a big part of most cat 4's programs. 

As to the other question, I think radios matter in one-day races, but less, because I think the potential for a significant surprise to stem from limited information (and direction) is greater in stage races. By no means do I think any of this is an "absolute," but my feeling is that, in stage races, riders are more willing to *let* a break get close to the point where it is irretrievable, rather than being conservative (because that individual stage is less likely to be their/their team's top priority). I think the absence of radio communication will make for more instances where the riders misjudge when that point occurs, because their information or the direction being given to them is limited or less timely. I highlighted "let" above because I think there's a difference between the breaks by secondary teams and non-GC riders in, for example, the Tour de France, and a Stijn Devolder getting away at RvV by virtue of his and his team's tremendous strength.


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## jwgd (Feb 28, 2005)

Perhaps I'm showing my tactical ignorance, but what are the opinions on team "captains" only having communication with the cars and forcing them to manage the race/riders from the saddle?

EDIT: By "captain," I don't necessarily mean the GC or protected rider.


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## lalahsghost (Aug 27, 2007)

jwgd said:


> Perhaps I'm showing my tactical ignorance, but what are the opinions on team "captains" only having communication with the cars and forcing them to manage the race/riders from the saddle?
> 
> EDIT: By "captain," I don't necessarily mean the GC or protected rider.


This is how I feel. I like the idea of one rider per team having a radio. 

It allows for football-like plays if that makes any kind of sense in anyone else's head. Water/food/tactics/how're 'ya feeling must either be with car-to-captain or car-to person or person-to-captain-to-car. Sounds like we'll see a bunch more sprints to get back with the peloton.


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## dave_gt (Jul 25, 2008)

Just my $.02, but why fight progress? As much as I loathe the over-emphasis on electronics, etc. these days, what is this about anyway? Should we not go back to steel frame bikes and prohibit all the high-tech gear? 

That would be way cool...have an experiment on steel bikes...no carbon bikes allowed. Not! Be kinda like the PGA having everyone drop back to real wood clubs and...well, come to think of it that would be cool, wouldn't it?

Hmmm....:thumbsup:


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

LA was interviewed at Nevada City I think. He's in favor of radios. States the usual reasons, one of which is "progress". 

I see his points. 

But I also see a fan base that's getting pretty tired of the same old predictable TdF stages (including me) and would like to see some WTF moments now and then.

That, to me, is the main reason - just to mix things up a bit.


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## somdoosh (Jul 21, 2008)

Didn't they try having an unpredictable Giro this year? The result was Pedro Munoz going off a cliff.

But I think this is an interesting idea. It could make the race more exciting, it could make the race dull, it could end up being circumvented and regarded as the joke of the tour. However it's worth seeing how it plays out before judging, IMO.


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## IAmCosmo (Jul 26, 2005)

Why just two stages? Either allow them or ban them all together. Seems kind of pointless to just ban them for two stages. All that will do is cause more argument and speculation...


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## JeffN (Sep 19, 2006)

*Good idea*

I'm excited about the idea too. I've often thought that television coverage would be pretty interesting if we could hear some of the radio communication. Nascar and Formula 1 have made this a staple of their coverage for years, and as a specatator I think it's fascinating. Obviously, the teams would be concerned about other directors spying via the coverage, but I'm sure there's ways around this.


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