# Re-thinking rear derailleurs for Cross



## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

It is not rare for gear to break or just stop working from use in cross. Shifter failures are not uncommon but it is really rear derailleurs that on those muddiest of days start to die at the most alarming rate.

Here are some pictures of rear derailleurs from one day of racing here in Portland last week. There were likely many many more that I did not get photos of as I got these from one walk around the pits between races:

FPC (Failure to Pass Chain) Deaths - a set on Flickr

What I am interested in hearing is peoples experiences with this issue and what they have done about it.

Have you started using a cheaper rear derailleur (maybe a 105 instead of an Ultegra, Force instead of a Red etc). Perhaps even forgone a race as it seemed a good decision to save gear. entered the single speed category instead on a day where lots of breakages were occurring. Started on a second cheaper of your two rides.

Also how do you view the rear derailleur as part of your rigs equation. Do you see it as expendable? 

Cheers,

Goat Q
R&D Department
Retroshift LLC
Portland, OR
Retroshift CX | Mud Proof Shifting for Cyclocross. Designed by Goats.


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## Sizzle-Chest (Sep 12, 2010)

I heard about that happening at PIR but I didn't realize it was that bad! 

I broke off a small piece of the cage plate on my force derailleur during a race a couple weeks ago, which prevented me from shifting. However, I was able to use a zip tie to keep it somewhat functional for the rest of the season. 

In regards to your question, I was considering switching to SS but I'll probably just end up buying and breaking another force derailleur. Hopefully, I'll then have enough parts from the two broken ones to make a working one.


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

pdxsnap said:


> It is not rare for gear to break or just stop working from use in cross. Shifter failures are not uncommon but it is really rear derailleurs that on those muddiest of days start to die at the most alarming rate.
> 
> Here are some pictures of rear derailleurs from one day of racing here in Portland last week. There were likely many many more that I did not get photos of as I got these from one walk around the pits between races:
> 
> ...


Rear derailleur failures are rare enough for derailleurs not to be seen as expandables parts. The good thing is a rear derailleur doesn't cost that much and in a given brand most of them are interchangeable. If you break a dura-ace mechanical derailleur, you can replace it with an old 15y old shimano RSX (sora equivalent) rear derailleur you kept in your part bin and it will still shift flawlessly. In any case, you shouldn't race with parts you can't replace. And it doesn't apply only to CX. 

Many pictures in this flickr gallery were frame / derailleur hanger failures by the way. I've never suffered a rear derailleur failure but bent/broke a few derailleur hanger in those years. How many starters in these events ?

Riders should simply not try to shift when there is too much resistance. Those who have a spare one should just go back to the pits and change bike. Those who only have one bike should just switch to a "safe gear" that can be used for longest part of the lap before it is too late. We call that common sense.

Shifters failures are rare too. I know your business is based on that myth but it is simply untrue that shifters just break often in cyclocross. It is a rare sight. This or you americans just don't know how to operate them or are used to randomly crashing purposely into concrete walls.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

My partner snapped two Shimano rds last year essentially in the same clay-like thick mud found on one local course. One the week before and one the week after the big race. She was horrified. At the race itself another friend tore off his rd, destroying a new carbon fiber frame. He was stunned. 

Also at that race I watched a veteran mountain biker spray Pam all over his rd, and we've taken it up as well. Does it work? I dunno. But we haven't snapped any rds since, and we're all crossing our fingers...


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

it seems like those real muddy, messy days are where the trouble occurs. An internal geared hub that wasn't super expensive or heavy would be a nice solution, but none is forthcoming.

I had kind of a dorky crash saturday and packed my RH shifter full of grass and it stopped working until I stopped and knocked it clean. This was my first shifter failure in 300 or so races


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Looking at the condition of some of those bikes, I would say people should have been running some of the sections they were riding...


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

I have only used Ultegra or below rear derailleurs. All have worked well. I'm a dinosaur and still use Dura Ace 9 spd shifters. Have lucked out here in New England the past few years. Haven't done more than a couple of really muddy races per year (I race every weekend starting in mid August). This year it was the Gloucester weekend but that offers a much more soupy kind of mud. I've never broken a derailleur. My guess is the broken ones happen more in the non-elite or masters races. Much less chance of having a pit crew in those races. Gotta ride 1 bike the whole race. Or what I have done (only a couple of times in 15+ years of racing) race 1 bike half the race, switch mid-race.


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## Scott B (Dec 1, 2004)

I run Shimano XT and XT medium cage derailleurs and have generally had great luck with durability. My primary cross bike has an XT medium cage that is at least 5 years old with 3-4 seasons of racing on it. Generally, I'll keep running mountain derailleurs for the rear and not something super top shelf. If everything is well adjusted that seems to help.


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## jrm (Dec 23, 2001)

*I run a old 952 XTR*

short cage RD. It's worked really well for a long time.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

T0mi - "you shouldn't race with parts you can't replace" Good quote. It is nice to have cool and expensive equipment but having some realization that racing (or riding) is unpredictable and can lead to breakages is a good thing to keep in mind and replacing parts should be considered part of the equation.

With luck it will be the hanger that fails - sadly many of the bikes had well snapped hangers but still the derailleurs ended up damaged also. 

You also bring up a good point on not shifting when there is too much resistance, so some of the breakages could be lowered with rider habits. But I will concede this is however not always the case as the mud also just allows more 'stuff' to be picked up (and stuck) by the chain and cause issues. One breakage this past weekend was due to some marker ribbon being sucked into a mechanism. Year before last there was a very nasty rash caused by the big leaves found on the cornfields that were part of the course at Kruger Farms. They have changed the course since!

JohnStonebarger - PAM. This is something that is done (or use of other lubes). I am sure it does not hurt but I am unsure personally if it makes much difference. I would think more important would be to get the chain very very clean and a very good fresh coating of lube on the chain just prior to the race. The longer the chain can shed mud the more likely it is to not cause a jam.

VeldrijdenAddict - I think you are right to some extent that Elite riders break fewer units. I have found the following from my questions with them: 

They generally work more on their bikes between races to make sure they are in as good a shape as possible (cleaning/lubing).

Might do warm up lap on a their back up bike or on a separate bike altogether to keep primary bike as fresh as possible.

Ride through puddles when possible to keep bike wetter to lower amount of mud that sticks to bike.

Not related to rear derailleur breakages but shifters - will sell off shifters at the end of a season and buy new each season to lower chances of a failure. They may do this with a rear derailleur IF it was less than at 100% but this was not so generally done.

If very muddy and concerned will use front derailleur more if so as to use rear less.

ScottB - MTB derailleur makes some sense. Would be good to really compare to a road version to see what design changes were being used.


The Goats
Retroshift


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## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> My guess is the broken ones happen more in the non-elite or masters races.


Nope... on VT4, the Belgian TV channel that broadcasts the Superprestige series, they reported in the region of 20 broken RD's in the Gavere race. They reported one rider that allready broke 3 in the season.

The rethink question is a very good one. My simple thought is that everyone is using road parts in conditions that would claim the life of light MTB parts too. A few years ago I was at this Dutch national series MTB race with the worst mud (grass/clay mix) you can imagine. It claimed dozens of RD's, particulary SRAM X0, that was new and the lightest stuff around at the time. Since then, the rigidity of MTB RD's improved, probably because of the growing popularity of freeride/enduro bikes.

It's about time cross stuff evolves too. In the meantime, if you want to be safe, get a short cage Shimano Saint RD . Be sure you have a replaceable RD hanger though.


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

J-K said:


> Nope... on VT4, the Belgian TV channel that broadcasts the Superprestige series, they reported in the region of 20 broken RD's in the Gavere race. They reported one rider that allready broke 3 in the season.


Well gee, at a pro only event, only pros broke stuff. Go figure. Including the whole universe of cross racing, I will stand by my statement. 

Your other point is a good one. Basically very light weight (read not a strong) road parts are coming up short when it comes to durability in the roughest of conditions.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

I run old school XT and XTR 8 speed medium and short cages
love them
they still rock


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## Thom H (Aug 25, 2009)

Derailleurs, we don't need no stinkin derailleurs. PIR was the home of the Original SSCXWC with good reason. If ever there was a course designed for SS that one is it. That and the Alpenrose are my two favs in the PNW.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

My MTB just gets Deore rear derailleurs for now. I break one every couple years. I fall on that bike more than I do on my 'cross bike. The 'cross bike actually has a Deore rear derailleur too, although the old-school one, not the Shadow. More because it's about on par with the Tiagra on the rest of the bike, though - on the MTB, the rest of the build is a little nicer.

I've had fairly good luck with the 'cross bike.

With the MTB, I've broken the derailleur by falling on it (duh) and I twisted the hell out of it and dragged it partway through my rear triangle at a very muddy race earlier this season; that also bent the hanger pretty badly. That time, I didn't feel anything until the rear wheel abruptly stopped.

So for me, it depends on the bike. If it takes me eleven years to wear out a derailleur and it suffers no other damage (road bike) then it's not exactly an expendable part. If it's every two years... I feel differently. Although I generally consider that once I've installed something on my 'cross bike, its days are numbered. No matter what it is.


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## mudrock (Jun 4, 2008)

If I lived in the muddy Northwest serious consideration would be given to a IGH hub equipped crosser, and it need not be expensive. On One now has a distributorship in PDX and they make the reasonably priced Pompetamine frame. Based on the single speed Il Pompino but with braze-ons to work with a Alfine hub. The 73 deg HT may be too steep for some.

http://shop.titusti.com/On-One-Pompetamine-Cro-Mo-Urban-Frame-p/froopompet.htm

Here's a flickr gallery of one, set-up as a commuter. Another prob: cable mounts under toptube.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thetron/4976992959/in/photostream/


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

mudrock said:


> If I lived in the muddy Northwest serious consideration would be given to a IGH hub equipped crosser, and it need not be expensive. On One now has a distributorship in PDX and they make the reasonably priced Pompetamine frame. Based on the single speed Il Pompino but with braze-ons to work with a Alfine hub. The 73 deg HT may be too steep for some.
> 
> On-One Pompetamine Cro-Mo Urban Frame


I don't think those hubs are really designed to work in such harsh conditions...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

3 luddites on this forum. nice to know you aren't alone


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

The Rohloff is getting some market penetration up here in the Pacific Northwest. I've even seen a couple in the wild. Pricey, though.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Those would be a bad choice for cross. Huge amount of weight, and no wheel changes.

You only really need a handful of gears for cross: flat, downhill, uphill, steep uphill/sand.

IMO, 8 speed is about perfect, not too big a jump to feel like crap shifting it, but decent range of gears, and good reliability. Too bad its getting harder to find decent 8 speed stuff...


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## mudrock (Jun 4, 2008)

foto said:


> I don't think those hubs are really designed to work in such harsh conditions...


On-One Whippet Alfine 11 Review - BikeRadar

Durability should be no problem. Halfway down the article they mention easing up on the pedals to shift, bummer if so.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

mudrock said:


> On-One Whippet Alfine 11 Review - BikeRadar
> 
> Durability should be no problem. Halfway down the article they mention easing up on the pedals to shift, bummer if so.


i'm not convinced.

Anyway, all planetary hubs require you ease off to shift them. It's one reason they are nice for recreational riders, who can't figure out how to shift and pedal at the same time.


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## mudrock (Jun 4, 2008)

atpjunkie said:


> 3 luddites on this forum. nice to know you aren't alone


IGH fans are luddites? Derailleurs have been around since the 30s. SA 3-sp since the 50s, maybe, but to have all your gears in a gear case where they dont wear out or get damaged is cool.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

mudrock said:


> IGH fans are luddites? Derailleurs have been around since the 30s. SA 3-sp since the 50s, maybe, but to have all your gears in a gear case where they dont wear out or get damaged is cool.


I think he is referring to 8speed.


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## jmchapple (Feb 8, 2007)

pdxsnap said:


> It is not rare for gear to break or just stop working from use in cross. Shifter failures are not uncommon but it is really rear derailleurs that on those muddiest of days start to die at the most alarming rate.
> 
> Here are some pictures of rear derailleurs from one day of racing here in Portland last week. There were likely many many more that I did not get photos of as I got these from one walk around the pits between races:
> 
> ...




i would have skipped that race for fear of tearing something up. i have done one muddy race in last couple of years and even though i didn't break anything, others did. not that many muddy races here (nc) so missing one wouldn't be a big deal


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

atpjunkie said:


> I run old school XT and XTR 8 speed medium and short cages
> love them
> they still rock


I have an older XTR that seems bulletproof, but I converted to 10spd from 8 spd for consistancy across all my wheelsets. I have TWO newer carbon caged XTR derailleurs on the parts shelf that are both cracked (one was not mine). I will NEVER run a carbon cage again on anything that sees dirt.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

jmchapple said:


> i would have skipped that race for fear of tearing something up. i have done one muddy race in last couple of years and even though i didn't break anything, others did. not that many muddy races here (nc) so missing one wouldn't be a big deal


Yep. Or at least had a SS second bike for shitty days like that.


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## jmchapple (Feb 8, 2007)

*...and*



OnTheRivet said:


> Yep. Or at least had a SS second bike for shitty days like that.



it isn't a lot of fun honestly and the cleanup afterward is a pain in the arse


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

jmchapple said:


> i would have skipped that race for fear of tearing something up. i have done one muddy race in last couple of years and even though i didn't break anything, others did. not that many muddy races here (nc) so missing one wouldn't be a big deal


You're skipping mud? Isn't this cyclocross?

I was at PIR, and was fine on my SS. For those suggesting that people should have run more: they already had been, almost the either course was thick, slow mud (even the road sections!) Honestly this kind of mud is going to be pretty rare for most people in the US, minus the PNW and occasionally NE. So most people won't have the issues to deal with.

I agree with a previous poster that most times it's the hanger that is snapping and derailleur is usually fine. Most frames have pretty inexpensive hanger replacements (like $20 or under). 

I've definitely had a number of races the last few years in Portland where I was shocked my campy rear on my geared bike was still functioning. The only bike I've ripped a derailleur off was my mountain bike (and a road bike during plane travel). 

I really thought the title on this thread was trolling for some kind of singlespeed thread. 

There was a good interview with Colby Pierce in Boulder earlier this year where he was commenting that he felt like cyclocross was the best discipline to race SS. ie. you weren't losing that much without gears in a cross race.


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## jmchapple (Feb 8, 2007)

davemess said:


> You're skipping mud? Isn't this cyclocross?
> 
> Yes and yes.
> 
> ...


except i never see ss at the front of any race.


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

jmchapple said:


> except i never see ss at the front of any race.


We have an entire team of SS A riders here in Portland (Gates/River City team). The top guy Seth Patla consistently gets top 5 in the A races of cross crusade. 

Adam Craig was top 10 at the Bend Nationals two years ago on SS. 

Think about top pro sponsored guys: I don't think their component sponsors would be too stoked to see them riding SS.

There are usually a few guys racing SS in many US elite races. (this goes back to Travis Brown a while ago).

So yes, it's not common, but it's definitely not unheard of. Frankly for a pro race with money on the line, there is just too much at stake to ride SS (esp. when you have top end equipment already, and a dedicated pit bike/crew). 

Colby Pierce is not a slouch either with Years of good results in Colorado (not to mention a few trips to the Olympics on the track).

Where do you live? I think there is a lag in SS racing's popularity in certain regions. It usually gets really big 5-10 years after cyclocross really starts to boom in an area (many times because racers have plateaued in their "other" category and are looking for a bit of a new challenge). SS races are HUGE in Portland (we easily get 115+ guys out at Cross Crusade), and there are SS guys in EVERY category throughout the day.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

davemess said:


> You're skipping mud? Isn't this cyclocross?
> 
> I was at PIR, and was fine on my SS. For those suggesting that people should have run more: they already had been, almost the either course was thick, slow mud (even the road sections!) Honestly this kind of mud is going to be pretty rare for most people in the US, minus the PNW and occasionally NE. So most people won't have the issues to deal with.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I wasn't there but IMO if your bike looks like this, you're doing it wrong...


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## jmchapple (Feb 8, 2007)

davemess said:


> We have an entire team of SS A riders here in Portland (Gates/River City team). The top guy Seth Patla consistently gets top 5 in the A races of cross crusade.
> 
> Adam Craig was top 10 at the Bend Nationals two years ago on SS.
> 
> ...


i know there are many strong riders on ss but i still think there is a disadvantage. i ride a fg on the road (not as a hipster) and would love to try ss cx but not ready to invest in a bike.
i live in nc and we have a small ss category in the series. there are some that do the ''geared'' categories on ss


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yes*



foto said:


> I think he is referring to 8speed.


referring to the few of us running XT or XTR med to short cage 8 speed systems


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*and some courses*



foto said:


> Sorry, I wasn't there but IMO if your bike looks like this, you're doing it wrong...


are designed without 'wide open' sections so the advantage of gears is further reduced
much depends on course layout


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

foto said:


> Sorry, I wasn't there but IMO if your bike looks like this, you're doing it wrong...


What was that rider doing wrong? Besides not having a pit bike/crew, and possibly a bike with more rear clearance? Some races your bike gets REALLY muddy. That's part of cross. 
I'm guessing you've never done a muddy race where you real wheel almost locks up due to mud clearance, I have done them in both cross and MTB. Some courses just have this happen based on the composition of the mud (usually more clay can do it), and its rarely the rider not "doing something right".


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

davemess said:


> What was that rider doing wrong? Besides not having a pit bike/crew, and possibly a bike with more rear clearance? Some races your bike gets REALLY muddy. That's part of cross.
> *I'm guessing you've never done a muddy race where you real wheel almost locks up due to mud clearance*, I have done them in both cross and MTB. Some courses just have this happen based on the composition of the mud (usually more clay can do it), and its rarely the rider not "doing something right".


I have, actually. And when the mud is that heavy, it is grueling to ride in, weighs your bike down with 15 pounds of mud, and makes it not work so good. Those sections are faster and more energy efficient to run. If the _entire course_ is like that, well, I would say that is poor course design.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

SS is indeed a great fix for the worries of a rear derailleur. While we are a component manufacturer for a product for GEARED bikes we are happy to say that SS riders are probably the smartest ones in the bunch when it comes to CX! The environment is just so harsh on what is mostly road components that going SS is a smart move. I sometimes wonder is CX was ONLY a SS sport if ultimately it would have become just as (or not more) popular as it has.

As a company that is looking to find new solutions to CX shifting gear we are however interested in finding ways to advance the designs of components (even if in the case of our first product taking a step backwards to get ahead : ) We are very interested in the feedback given here and are working as a group to provide some kind of advancement in the realm of rear derailleurs. 2012 has been a wild first year for us outpacing our best expectations and we look forward to 2013 and what might come next! 

The Goats
Retroshift LLC
Portland, OR


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

foto said:


> If the _entire course_ is like that, well, I would say that is poor course design.


If you are in Portland and got nearly 9 inches of rain last month, there aren't a whole lot of other options.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

davemess said:


> If you are in Portland and got nearly 9 inches of rain last month, there aren't a whole lot of other options.


Really? The entire course is in open country?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I managed to have a good, fast summer but I pretty much sucked by the time 'cross came around this season...

...but I gotta say - if I was racing well enough to be in the points, there's no way I'd be skipping races to save my equipment. It's racing! You take what the course design and nature have come up with for the day, and do as well as you can with it.


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

foto said:


> Really? The entire course is in open country?


Yes, it is the old USGP course, next to a motor track. And the cross crusade is the most popular cyclocross series in the World. So if you want to bash Brad's courses, go right ahead. There is a little tree cover but not anything that would help prevent the mud. The only trails around here that survive to be rideable in the winter are purpose built trails with adequate drainage.

I just don't think you're appreciating what that amount of precipitation has on grass, not to mention 700-900 racers riding over it. 

Sounds like we need to get you out in the mud. You should come out and do some races next season, I've got a spare bedroom!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

davemess said:


> Yes, it is the old USGP course, next to a motor track. And the cross crusade is the most popular cyclocross series in the World. So if you want to bash Brad's courses, go right ahead. There is a little tree cover but not anything that would help prevent the mud. The only trails around here that survive to be rideable in the winter are purpose built trails with adequate drainage.
> 
> I just don't think you're appreciating what that amount of precipitation has on grass, not to mention 700-900 racers riding over it.
> 
> Sounds like we need to get you out in the mud. You should come out and do some races next season, I've got a spare bedroom!


Wow, thanks for the invite!

Not bashing anyone's course. I am bashing one particular person's savvy-ness in line choice. Just curious, out of the 900 people that showed up, how many broke derailers? How many had bikes as bad as the one I picked out?

I will be the first to admit I suck at racing, but we do get a bit of rain up here in Seattle, and some tough conditions from time to time. Enough for me to know that if you have an eight inch chunk of sod on your front derailer, you aren't doing it right...Especially if you have no pit crew. Also, I haven't ridden PIR, but I thought half that course was on gravel.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

Quite a few comments here regarding riders not riding right if they are getting broken derailleurs. I would like to say sure a rider can adjust their riding style to account for mud to lower the risk of breakages:

Line chosen (avoid mud)
Line chosen (aim for puddles to keep bike wet)
Run instead of ride
Choose when to shift

That said please remember before you just blame broken derailleurs on rider error that these are races and riders can be forgiven for making decisions based on their judgment of how to get to the finish line as quickly as possible.

We are very lucky (or not - depending on how you look at it) to have very muddy races here in the PNW. Why is this good - well it's just that bit more authentic to the sport. Our courses and conditions are much closer to those of Europe where broken derailleurs are also an issue. I started the thread to see if there was interest of input for rethinking derailleur design to accommodate the conditions of cross. 

Good race today and a few more broken derailleurs - they often go hand in hand. What was pretty cool to see however was this: 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/retroshift/8240273072/in/photostream

Someone previously mentioned this as an option. Looks like it is already being tried to good effect. Rider was very happy with the performance. 

The Goats
Retroshift


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

pdxsnap said:


> Quite a few comments here regarding riders not riding right if they are getting broken derailleurs. I would like to say sure a rider can adjust their riding style to account for mud to lower the risk of breakages:
> 
> Line chosen (avoid mud)
> Line chosen (aim for puddles to keep bike wet)
> ...


Hmm...that is interesting. I have a nexus hub, and the seals are not that great. I don't know if Shimano improved the seals on the Alfine or not...


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

pdxsnap said:


> It is not rare for gear to break or just stop working from use in cross. Shifter failures are not uncommon but it is really rear derailleurs that on those muddiest of days start to die at the most alarming rate.
> 
> Here are some pictures of rear derailleurs from one day of racing here in Portland last week. There were likely many many more that I did not get photos of as I got these from one walk around the pits between races:
> 
> ...


I watched five cyclocross races today. According to the guys who worked the race, today was some of the wettest and muddiest in memory. Anyway, I didn't see a single rear der explode. Not one all day. There were a handful of mechanicals and DNFs, but no more than usual. 

Guys ride nice bikes around my area too. I saw a number of bikes with dura ace and red, even someone with Campy EPS. Several carbon bikes balanced by a number of steel rocklobsters. Many people were on carbon tubulars... 

For the record, my 1X10 has a flat bar, Force rear der, and hydraulic brakes. I see everything on my bike as expendable. If the der gets ripped off I'll make it a SS. Until then, I'm going to ride it like I stole it. 

That retroshift looks cool, especially if you want to dump your cassette going into a turn. That said, I don't see how it could possible stop any of those explosions in the pictures. 


I know it's not retro...but is there any chance of putting hydraulic cylinders in there? :idea:


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

foto - said "Hmm...that is interesting. I have a nexus hub, and the seals are not that great. I don't know if Shimano improved the seals on the Alfine or not..."

foto - I don't want to suggest that I know anything but from my brief talk with the rider it seemed apparent that the he was more knowledgeable about the system (and future versions of the system) than your run of the mill customer.

Hooves crossed - maybe better seals on the way.

The Goats
www.facebook.com/retroshift


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

pdxsnap said:


> foto - said "Hmm...that is interesting. I have a nexus hub, and the seals are not that great. I don't know if Shimano improved the seals on the Alfine or not..."
> 
> foto - I don't want to suggest that I know anything but from my brief talk with the rider it seemed apparent that the he was more knowledgeable about the system (and future versions of the system) than your run of the mill customer.
> 
> ...


Some nice photos here of that hub, if you are curious...
Shimano Internal Gear Hub Service


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*if memory serves me right*



foto said:


> Wow, thanks for the invite!
> 
> Not bashing anyone's course. I am bashing one particular person's savvy-ness in line choice. Just curious, out of the 900 people that showed up, how many broke derailers? How many had bikes as bad as the one I picked out?
> 
> I will be the first to admit I suck at racing, but we do get a bit of rain up here in Seattle, and some tough conditions from time to time. Enough for me to know that if you have an eight inch chunk of sod on your front derailer, you aren't doing it right...Especially if you have no pit crew. Also, I haven't ridden PIR, but I thought half that course was on gravel.


that's the course they used for Nats in in 2005 I think. I worked the pits in masters and elite. Saturdays masters the course was way worse. I was washing bikes twice a lap the mud was so thick. Many sections that are normally ride able were not (including some downhills) in the least bit. I saw a few der's break (including Justin Robinson's (he still won) so yes wet Portland mud is pretty vicious. Luckily it got cold and dry for the elites on Sunday. Still muddy but not slop


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

foto said:


> Some nice photos here of that hub, if you are curious...
> Shimano Internal Gear Hub Service



Good link! Lots of potential for weight loss and improvements. 

This thread has me really interested now......This is not good for the wallet.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

An Electric Shift - Shimano's Di2 Internal Gear Hub - Momentum Mag

This would be nice!

I just wish shimano would make it quick release, lighter axle, and cartridge bearings.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

Local Hero - said "That retroshift looks cool, especially if you want to dump your cassette going into a turn. That said, I don't see how it could possible stop any of those explosions in the pictures. "

I am pretty sure any advancement for this issue will come at the derailleur end not the shifter. We make NO claims that our shifters work any better in this regard. We are interested in finding ways to lower the occurance of Sudden Death Syndrome of rear deraileurs. So many get broken on the really muddy days of cx.

88 rex - Funny, I think I might have heard a rumor about a Di2 version of the Shimano internal hub quite recently.


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

foto said:


> Wow, thanks for the invite!
> 
> Not bashing anyone's course. I am bashing one particular person's savvy-ness in line choice. Just curious, out of the 900 people that showed up, how many broke derailers? How many had bikes as bad as the one I picked out?
> 
> I will be the first to admit I suck at racing, but we do get a bit of rain up here in Seattle, and some tough conditions from time to time. Enough for me to know that if you have an eight inch chunk of sod on your front derailer, you aren't doing it right...Especially if you have no pit crew. Also, I haven't ridden PIR, but I thought half that course was on gravel.


You're thinking of the PIR Heron Lakes course, which is another area of the facility. It does have a fair bit of gravel (prob. 20% or so), and is run in early/mid October, so usually doesn't get super muddy. (This year it was super tacky as the race day wore on, to the point that my bike didn't have anything on it after the last race of the day). The USGP course is a completely different course.

For the GP course at PIR this year, you would have had to probably run 95% of the course to avoid having mud/grass build up around your derailleur. It was not a matter of that racer just choosing muddy lines (there were NO unmuddy lines). This post was started with about 20 pics of busted RDs, and I guarantee the photographer did not get all of them from the day of racing (not to mention about 15% of the days racers were SSers with no derailleur). I would venture that most bikes had mud that looked like the one you picked out (HUGE lines at the hoses after the races). 

I have been racing cross for 8 years and just haven't heard anyone recommending to run muddy sections (that are rideable) to avoid mud buildup on their bikes (and I live in the mud capital of US racing).


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

davemess - said "This post was started with about 20 pics of busted RDs, and I guarantee the photographer did not get all of them from the day of racing"

Hi davemess - I must respectfully disagree with your statement.

I posted the photos at the start of the thread. These were all taken during the single race day at PIR on November 18th 2012. I did add 3 more photos of broken derailleurs from the Washougal MX course run yesterday. These were all from my position out on the course and I am pretty sure are all from the Mens B race (there might have been more).

I was there for the day to cheer on riders and to do some R&D. One of our test riders was running a rear derailleur we are tinkering with.

Timeline Photos | Facebook

Adam Clement
Retroshift LLC
Portland, OR
Retroshift CX | Mud Proof Shifting for Cyclocross. Designed by Goats.


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

See below


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I'm not accusing you of adding a bunch of different days pictures together. I am saying I think your pictures from PIR were only a small representation of the mechanical destruction on that day (ie. there were a lot more busted derailleurs than just the pictures you took). And if they were all only from the B race (which is one of the smallest fields at the Crusades), then you are definitely confirming my point.

I guess it should have read "I guarantee the photographer did not get a picture of EVERY broken derailleur from this one day of racing".

I think we can both agree there was a lot of bike carnage on that day.


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

P.S. I was in that race on a SS too. It was a blast.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

davemess said:


> I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I'm not accusing you of adding a bunch of different days pictures together. I am saying I think your pictures from PIR were only a small representation of the mechanical destruction on that day (ie. there were a lot more busted derailleurs than just the pictures you took). And if they were all only from the B race (which is one of the smallest fields at the Crusades), then you are definitely confirming my point.
> 
> I guess it should have read "I guarantee the photographer did not get a picture of EVERY broken derailleur from this one day of racing".
> 
> I think we can both agree there was a lot of bike carnage on that day.


davemess - My apologies, yes I did not read your post as it was intended.

Washougal looked like a fun course. I am hopefull that the GPTB (or whatever it is called next year - I have some idea : ) will likely at least double in size. I love the Crusades but it will be good for all if the Saturday series can ease a bit of the demand on the Sunday races whichhave become so big.


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes, for sure. I enjoyed every GPTB race I did this year. I like the new venues (Edgefield was outstanding) and less "hubbub" with the smaller races. Sadly, I am without a car on the weekend, and their further distance from my house makes some of them impossible to get to (Washougal was a case in point this weekend).


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Those 30+ pictures were not 30+ bikes -- sometimes multiple angles were taken from each bike.


And there are pictures like the one below, which tend to show that cx is destructive on the entire bike, not just the RD. 

'
'


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> Those 30+ pictures were not 30+ bikes -- sometimes multiple angles were taken from each bike.
> 
> 
> And there are pictures like the one below, which tend to show that cx is destructive on the entire bike, not just the RD.
> ...


still ridable...


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

So's a bike with a broken derailleur.


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## Tim de Velo (Jan 18, 2010)

AndrwSwitch said:


> So's a bike with a broken derailleur.


How so?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Depends how far you have to go and what the terrain trend is.

When I did mine, I shortened my chain and singlespeeded out. Perhaps it's not as practical as just running for 'cross, but the comment was about whether or not one _can._

You could also just put the chain in your pocket and coast/Fred Flintstone.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

foto - Yes this fella broke his seatpost pretty early in the race and still went on to finish. I guess he did not have a pit bike as he kept going by with the same bike.

Local Hero - Said "Those 30+ pictures were not 30+ bikes -- sometimes multiple angles were taken from each bike". You are correct. I wanted to get photos of different angles as a record of the type of damage, not simply as a record of the number. You would also be correct to say that there were many many more that I did not get photos of. One team member at a tent where I found one of the broken derailleurs said there had been 7 for his team that day.

I have noticed a couple look as if they are a result of simply being allowed to make contact with the spokes (maybe a range stop adjustment would have saved this from happening) but most just look as if they became jammed with debris. I also wonder how much a stuck or stiff pulley wheel could be as a part of the mix. We have begun some testing.

CX is a great sport for the bike industry (for selling replacement parts). 


Adam
Retroshift


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

AndrwSwitch said:


> When I did mine, I shortened my chain and singlespeeded out. Perhaps it's not as practical as just running for 'cross, but the comment was about whether or not one _can._.


Are you doing cross races with a chain tool? I can't see this repair taking under at least 3-4 minutes.


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## mudrock (Jun 4, 2008)

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/alexmurdock/8249202226/" title="shimano-alfine-di2-1 by alexmurdock, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8481/8249202226_c4620e29ec_z.jpg" width="620" height="413" alt="shimano-alfine-di2-1"></a>

Problem solved!


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## GDeAngelo (Aug 9, 2009)

B bike and pit every half lap if you need to. If you have the option of a single speed, not a bad option either.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

mudrock - yup problem solved but if it is a Di2 then another one created! 

Di2 is currently just so expensive relative to other options. I think using a relatively cheap rear derailleur is at present one of the best defenses for the issue. Certainly 105 over a Dura-Ace makes allot of sense as it does not give up much in performance (perhaps closer to nothing when you figure in the mud). 

One of the photos from the original post was of a Di2 I believe. Really hurt to see that kind of money destroyed.

The Goats
Retroshift


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

pdxsnap said:


> mudrock - yup problem solved but if it is a Di2 then another one created!
> 
> Di2 is currently just so expensive relative to other options. I think using a relatively cheap rear derailleur is at present one of the best defenses for the issue. Certainly 105 over a Dura-Ace makes allot of sense as it does not give up much in performance (perhaps closer to nothing when you figure in the mud).
> 
> ...


And wheel changes are a bit of work with those hubs...

Just playing devil's advocate for some reason.


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

OK, I've ripped off a rear derailleur a handful of times over the years on both my mountain bike and my cross bike. It has never happened because of mud buildup though, rather every time it was due to a small stick that got wedged in the rear der. As anyone who has experienced this knows, when something gets stuck in your rear der such that the chain does not pull through it doesn't take much to rip it right off. One good pedal stroke and BOOM, it's trashed.

This problem is all about the rear derailleur cage. Either it's not adjusted right (leading to the scenario where you can shift it too far and get caught in the spokes), or the rear der cage can't clear the mud and debris well enough. Although it's never happened to me, I could certainly see how grass or gravel mixed in with the mud could lead to the rear der getting so gummed up that the chain will stop moving through the cage.

I could see how a medium or long cage mtb derailleur might help, as it provides a bit more clearance for the chain. I could also see how older 7/8/9 speed derailleurs might help, as the rear der cage would be slightly wider to allow for the wider chain and possibly better mud clearance.

I'm not sure how much attention is put into the design of rear derailleurs by manufacturers specifically for mud clearance. I think it's certainly possible to do some different, more "open" cage/pulley designs that would clear mud better.

Also, it might be possible that the rear der could be designed to allow for being yanked out of position more, rather than the current design where it hits a hard stop at a certain point and then further force either snaps the dropout or actually breaks the derailleur. I think it would be a good idea if the rear der was allowed to rotate much further, but beyond a certain point the spring releases. So, if something gets stuck in the rear der cage and your pedal stroke causes it to get rotated beyond this point, you would be able to manually deal with clearing the problem and rotate the rear der back into a good position, but at least it might prevent dropouts or the rear der getting destroyed.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

GearDaddy said:


> OK, I've ripped off a rear derailleur a handful of times over the years on both my mountain bike and my cross bike. It has never happened because of mud buildup though, rather every time it was due to a small stick that got wedged in the rear der. As anyone who has experienced this knows, when something gets stuck in your rear der such that the chain does not pull through it doesn't take much to rip it right off. One good pedal stroke and BOOM, it's trashed.
> 
> This problem is all about the rear derailleur cage. Either it's not adjusted right (leading to the scenario where you can shift it too far and get caught in the spokes), or the rear der cage can't clear the mud and debris well enough. Although it's never happened to me, I could certainly see how grass or gravel mixed in with the mud could lead to the rear der getting so gummed up that the chain will stop moving through the cage.
> 
> ...


I suppose you only need material on one side of the derailer, like those old suntours that you could drop the chain right off of.


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

foto said:


> I suppose you only need material on one side of the derailer, like those old suntours that you could drop the chain right off of.


Actually, from the perspective of keeping debris out of the rear der (i.e. sticks and stuff), that older derailluer design is worse. The classic stick-gets-stuck-in-rear-der scenario is when the stick gets in that space between the 2 pulleys. A rear der cage can be designed to help prevent that by blocking access to stuff in that area.

I think ultimately you want a rear der cage that does a better job of surrounding the area around the pulleys and between the pulleys to keep debris from getting wedged in there. But at the same time you can't really keep out small stuff like mud and grass, so you also want some space between the pulleys on the inside of the cage to allow for that stuff to clear so that the pulleys keep moving. It seems like a lot of rear derailleurs (especially for road) have a tight tolerance between the pulley and the cage in spots, which is not good for mud clearance.


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## mudrock (Jun 4, 2008)

GearDaddy said:


> Actually, from the perspective of keeping debris out of the rear der (i.e. sticks and stuff), that older derailluer design is worse.


ANY rear derailleur will do that, regardless of design, and an easy experiment on the bike stand will show you why. Start turning the crank (not too fast of course) then throw a rag on the the lower length of chain while "pedaling." It will go into the lower pulley and the jockey cage will immediately pull forward as your forward momentum pulls the chain through the sprockets. This will happen so fast while riding the derailleur breaks. It happens before you realize it and stop pedalling.

If you did this on an IGH-equipped bike like above, it will just make the cog jam up and the rear wheel will skid. Chain might break if your on dry ground.


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## mudrock (Jun 4, 2008)

pdxsnap said:


> Di2 is currently just so expensive relative to other options. I think using a relatively cheap rear derailleur is at present one of the best defenses for the issue. Certainly 105 over a Dura-Ace makes allot of sense as it does not give up much in performance (perhaps closer to nothing when you figure in the mud).


Your not looking at the story. It's not a derailleur. Intro price will be $400-500 for whole set up including shifter - compare that to any group ( derailleurs, shifters, cassette, rear hub) and price is reasonable. What will happen to this bike in a mudfest? Could still get clogged so wheels don't turn - grass and mud will do that to a single speed - but I don't see anything that will break.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

mudrock said:


> Your not looking at the story. It's not a derailleur. Intro price will be $400-500 for whole set up including shifter - compare that to any group ( derailleurs, shifters, cassette, rear hub) and price is reasonable. What will happen to this bike in a mudfest? Could still get clogged so wheels don't turn - grass and mud will do that to a single speed - but I don't see anything that will break.


flat tire...


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

mudrock said:


> ANY rear derailleur will do that, regardless of design, and an easy experiment on the bike stand will show you why. Start turning the crank (not too fast of course) then throw a rag on the the lower length of chain while "pedaling." It will go into the lower pulley and the jockey cage will immediately pull forward as your forward momentum pulls the chain through the sprockets. This will happen so fast while riding the derailleur breaks. It happens before you realize it and stop pedalling.
> 
> If you did this on an IGH-equipped bike like above, it will just make the cog jam up and the rear wheel will skid. Chain might break if your on dry ground.


I know all about how something can easily get sucked into a derailleur (i.e. rag, course tape, whatever). Tell me, when was the last time you got a piece of cloth caught in your rear der while riding?

My point was that improvements could be made to rear derailleurs to prevent them from being snapped off due to mud and other debris that is likely encountered in racing conditions.

As it stands now, it is not something that happens that often, so maybe that's why there hasn't been a whole lot of impetus to do something about it. FWIW, I've raced CX for 10 years using Campy 9-speed for many years and more recently using Campy 10-speed, and I've had no problems at all in a CX race.

High end CX bikes generally run road components, which I don't think were really designed that well for these muddy conditions. MTB derailleurs I think are somewhat better designed to handle muddy conditions. But there's more room for improvement here IMO.


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## mudrock (Jun 4, 2008)

GearDaddy said:


> I know all about how something can easily get sucked into a derailleur (i.e. rag, course tape, whatever). Tell me, when was the last time you got a piece of cloth caught in your rear der while riding?
> 
> My point was that improvements could be made to rear derailleurs to prevent them from being snapped off due to mud and other debris that is likely encountered in racing conditions.
> 
> ...


My rag comment was just to illustrate why this happens. Don't be a nitwit.

But mtb designers may have given this more thought, like you say. Any foreign object (not just mud alone) can lock up the pulley wheels. If offroad derailleurs were designed to let the jockey cage stretch out so that there is no resistance to the chain being pulled tight up to where it exits off the bottom of the crank, then the RD wouldn't break - either the chain would break or the rear wheel would skid.


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

mudrock said:


> My rag comment was just to illustrate why this happens. Don't be a nitwit.
> 
> But mtb designers may have given this more thought, like you say. Any foreign object (not just mud alone) can lock up the pulley wheels. If offroad derailleurs were designed to let the jockey cage stretch out so that there is no resistance to the chain being pulled tight up to where it exits off the bottom of the crank, then the RD wouldn't break - either the chain would break or the rear wheel would skid.


The first thing to go should be the dropout (They're designed to break first). The next thing to go is the rear derailleur (I've had it happen where the bolt that attaches to the dropout shears right off). The next thing to go might be the chain, but that's pretty darn hard to break. I think you'd more likely just not be able to pedal any further. I've seen where other people have actually folded over their front chainring and still the chain didn't break.

Not sure where you're getting that the rear wheel will skid. If the rear der gets stuck and you yank it forward, something breaks, et. al. the rear wheel should just keep rolling along just fine even though the drivetrain is hosed. Unless you're thinking that the broken-off rear der then gets thrown into the rear wheel spokes, then you've got a problem with the rear wheel moving along.

Whatever, I'm just suggesting that there might be improvements that can be made to the rear derailleur cage specifically (mtb derailleurs too) that could better keep out sticks and debris and at the same time clear mud and small stuff better.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

GearDaddy said:


> The first thing to go should be the dropout (They're designed to break first). The next thing to go is the rear derailleur (I've had it happen where the bolt that attaches to the dropout shears right off). The next thing to go might be the chain, but that's pretty darn hard to break. I think you'd more likely just not be able to pedal any further. I've seen where other people have actually folded over their front chainring and still the chain didn't break.
> 
> Not sure where you're getting that the real wheel will skid. If the rear der gets stuck and you yank it forward, something breaks, et. al. the rear wheel should just keep rolling along just fine even though the drivetrain is hosed. Unless you're thinking that the broken-off rear der then gets thrown into the rear wheel spokes, then you've got a problem with the rear wheel moving along.
> 
> Whatever, I'm just suggesting that there might be improvements that can be made to the rear derailleur cage specifically (mtb derailleurs too) that could better keep out sticks and debris and at the same time clear mud and small stuff better.


little squeegies and brushes and miniature squirt guns cleaning the chain on the entry of the lower pulley would do it


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

foto said:


> little squeegies and brushes and miniature squirt guns cleaning the chain on the entry of the lower pulley would do it


ha ha. That would be really awesome.


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

mudrock said:


> Your not looking at the story. It's not a derailleur. Intro price will be $400-500 for whole set up including shifter - compare that to any group ( derailleurs, shifters, cassette, rear hub) and price is reasonable. What will happen to this bike in a mudfest? Could still get clogged so wheels don't turn - grass and mud will do that to a single speed - but I don't see anything that will break.


mudrock –
The Di2 broken in the photo just broke my heart as they are so expensive.
The price of the proposed system however does sound pretty good, and sure it would lower. Also if you factor in not having to replace a rear derailleur it helps with cost.

I am excited to see where it all ends up. Internal hubs are given criticism for being less efficient but I would like to point out that certainly in road biking the OVERWELMING issue is AIR. Wind resistance takes up so much of a rider’s energy that perhaps an internal hub might even make sense there some day.
Weight will likely be an issue but this could also become a non issue with minimum allowable bike weights .

The Goats
Retroshift LLC
Portland, OR


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## mudrock (Jun 4, 2008)

GearDaddy said:


> Not sure where you're getting that the rear wheel will skid. If the rear der gets stuck and you yank it forward, something breaks, et. al. the rear wheel should just keep rolling along just fine even though the drivetrain is hosed. Unless you're thinking that the broken-off rear der then gets thrown into the rear wheel spokes, then you've got a problem with the rear wheel moving along.


Of course if you coast none of this happens. But a stick or grass can jam your derailleur and break something before you know it, and while you're still pedalling. The action of turning the pedals hard as you would in a race when something gets jammed would break the RD 1st (unless it was designed to provide no resistance to a taut chain), hanger 2nd, and then a skid. It might be only then you realize there's a problem and stop pedalling. When it happened to me it was almost instantaneous (to a Campy Centaur RD). Hanger was fine.

One thing about hangers: they are designed to bend in, like when a bike falls on the drive side. Their in-line strength, parallel to the chains motion, is much higher.


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

mudrock said:


> Of course if you coast none of this happens. But a stick or grass can jam your derailleur and break something before you know it, and while you're still pedalling. The action of turning the pedals hard as you would in a race when something gets jammed would break the RD 1st (unless it was designed to provide no resistance to a taut chain), hanger 2nd, and then a skid. It might be only then you realize there's a problem and stop pedalling. When it happened to me it was almost instantaneous (to a Campy Centaur RD). Hanger was fine.
> 
> One thing about hangers: they are designed to bend in, like when a bike falls on the drive side. Their in-line strength, parallel to the chains motion, is much higher.


Alrighty then. It's happened to me at least 5 or 6 times over the years, and only 1 or 2 of those times did the derailleur get shredded (with a Campy derailleur I was able to replace the bolt and spring only with the rest of the derailleur still being good!). In all other cases the aluminum replaceable dropout "did its job" and was the thing that broke.

I don't think replaceable dropouts are designed to bend any particular direction, rather they're designed to hardly bend at all and break instead.


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