# Custom Cassettes



## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Back in the day (60s & 70s) you used to be able to completely customize your own cassette...well, freewheels really. The bike shop would have a peg board with 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, etc. individual cogs hanging here. If you wanted a new freewheel you'd buy a body, select the individual cogs you wanted, then go home & screw them together. Nice! I don't know whose idea it was to discontinue that set up, but I wouldn't mind seeing their head on a platter.

Fast forward to today. I'm going to build a mega range 2 X 10 drive train with a compact 34X50 front. Cassettes are available with ranges up to 11X36. Does anybody know to what extent the individual cogs can be selected/changed on a 10 spd mt. cassette? I know usually the 2 or maybe 3 largest cogs are one piece. I also know some of the other 7 are loose. If I decided on a 34 or 36 max cog, how much could I specify the rest of the cogs to get what I want?


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## SilverStar (Jan 21, 2008)

Check the cheap ranges...a lot of those have loose, individual cogs. Well, they did...I am thinking of 9s (Shimano, SRAM) and cheap 10s Campagnolo cassettes (or Miche cassettes, which are all loose AFAIK). Once you go up the price points, the cogs are mounted on carriers in groups.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

Nmnmnmnm


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

Al1943 said:


> I don't get it. If you're 10-speed why not just buy a 10-speed 11-34 or 11-36 cassette? That will be less expensive than trying to buy individual cogs.


Some of us are willing to give up the 11 and 12 to get more gears with smaller steps between them in the middle of the range.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

Miche makes loose cogs for Shimano and Campy. There are some here.

A while back I found another place with a much better selection, and they had them in genuine Shimano too. Alas, I didn't bookmark the link. If I find it again, I'll edit it in here.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

you pretty much can't. the XTR and XT cassettes have 8 of the 10 cogs on a a spider, i think. that leaves the 11 and the 13 loose, not sure why you'd want to change those, but it's possible. the SLX cassettes have 3 large cogs on a spider and it looks like the other 7 are loose, but i'd have to look at one at the shop to tell for sure. Miche does make cogs that _should_ work if you wanted to buy a cassette and then buy a bunch of cogs to swap. 
you definitely can't do what you used to be able to do w/ freewheel cogs. you get the cassette that shimano or sram make and that's it.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

you pretty much can't. the XT cassettes have 8 of the 10 cogs on a a spider, i think. the XTR has the top 3, then 2, then 2more...that leaves the 11, 13 and 15 loose, not sure why you'd want to change those, but it's possible. the SLX cassettes have 3 large cogs on a spider and it looks like the other 7 are loose, but i'd have to look at one at the shop to tell for sure. Miche does make cogs that _should_ work if you wanted to buy a cassette and then buy a bunch of cogs to swap. 
you definitely can't do what you used to be able to do w/ freewheel cogs. you get the cassette that shimano or sram make and that's it.

ok, after looking at the exploded views, it's currently like this, going from large cogs to small

XTR 
2 largest cogs on spider, next 2 on a spider, next 2 on a spider, then 4 single cogs
XT
3 largerst on spider, next 3 on spider, then 4 single cogs.

SRAM is a little different, but more difficult to change cogs, at least at the higher end of the range.


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## 0.2HP (Jul 13, 2011)

STEP 1: Google "Sheldon Brown k7" and read.

STEP 2: Click on the 10 speed cassette link and read. Note charts showing the cassettes currently availible from all manufactures, color coded to show cogs one spiders (a unit that can not be taken apart.) Note link to single cogs availible. 

STEP 3: Decide what cogs you want and search the web for the model number(s) of the closest cassettes. Note some on-line suppliers have cassettes in stock that are no longer made. Order single cogs in the sizes you can't find in a pre-made cassette. Get a chain whip and freehub removal tool, take apart the cassette(s) you ordered and assembly the cogs you want on your wheel.

STEP 3: Consider ordering from Harris Cyclery, who pay to keep all the above info online for you


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

A 34x36 low gear?? That is seriously low! I really can't understand why you would want to make a "custom" cassette. While I may reminisce nostalgic about the past, modern bike tech offers up a wide range of useful gearing choices. Even the pro's if they can't find the proper road gearing for their requirements are still able to find it using mountain gearing choices.


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## LC (Jan 28, 2004)

I always find a way to customize my cassettes, even the 10 speed. I generally remove the 11 or/and 12T and then either insert the missing cog in the middle along with a spacer or a larger one at the other end of the cassette. I buy different oddball sized cassettes that nobody wants so they are heavily discounted and then put them together into a combination that I need. It sometimes takes 3 cassettes to make one that I need, but the extra parts gets used on other cassettes so it is not really wasted.

Adding a larger cog to the end is a trial and error process of different combination of thickness of spacers (8,9,10, and 1mm). You can get away with using one 9 speed gear at the end of a 10 speed, but never in the middle. You can also mix Shimano and SRAM. Mid level SRAM cassettes generally come apart with a pin that screws in with a allen head. You can also file down the built in spacer on older cassettes that come with a 13T smallest locking cog to fit on new narrower cassettes.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

gamara said:


> A 34x36 low gear?? That is seriously low! I really can't understand why you would want to make a "custom" cassette. While I may reminisce nostalgic about the past, modern bike tech offers up a wide range of useful gearing choices. Even the pro's if they can't find the proper road gearing for their requirements are still able to find it using mountain gearing choices.


Yes, that's seriously low. I'm 69 years old, 6'3", 225# & will be riding 3700 miles across the US with a group of people whose oldest member aside from me is 32. There's a stretch of road in Utah that is ~14% grade for 7 continuous miles. Even though I'm a very experienced rider I think I'll be happy knowing I have gearing like that to fall back on if needed. If you're small(ish), and cycling is definitely a small person's sport, you might not realize what it takes to haul 225# up a long steep grade. Whatever you weigh try to imagine putting a trailer on your bike and loading it with a block of concrete equal to the difference in our weights. Then tell me what you think about what gears you might like to have along. I read your profile & know you're a racer. I raced a lot from the 60s to the 80s. My race weight was ~ 190# and for my body type that's not skinny, but slender. So yes, I could weigh less, but I don't.

The reason for making a custom cassette is to see if I can eliminate some of the gaps in the mid range. A 13 tooth would suffice for a small cog.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

With 10 or 11 cogs, I don't think custom cassettes make much sense anymore. There are very few missing ratios.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I doubt there's really a 14% grade for all 7 miles. The "climb by bike" book lists the steepest 5 miles in North America as 12.1%. That's Mt Washington which is famed for being really steep. 

That said there's nothing wrong with getting low gearing. Even if its only 8% average for 5 miles it's going to be hard. There will be other climbs that are hard, you'll have bad days, etc. You might want to check out the cassettes offered by IRD (IRD Cassettes). They make a wide range of cassettes with various gearing. Sram also makes some wide range cassettes. You'd do better to get a complete cassette that's close to what you want because the shift ramps will line up and the cog spacing will be exact. If you assemble parts to make a frankencassette one or both will be off and shifting will suffer.

If you get a cassette with solo cogs you can remove the through bolts and swap cogs. With 10sp shimano the inner cog is dished, while 9sp is not. You can use one or maybe two 9sp cogs in a 10sp stack- they are slightly thicker but close enough. The problem with solo cogs is that they dig into aluminium freehub bodies. At your size I would not want to use large solo cogs on an aluminium freehub for fear of tearing right through the splines. 

If you're on Shimano you can use a 9sp mtb derailleur to shift up to a 34t cog. A road triple derailleur can handle a 30t cog (in my experience; it depends on your frame's derailleur hanger) Sram makes derailleurs for wide range cassettes so you are covered there. 

Can you bring a couple cassettes and when you get to the boring flat parts of the country swap to one that's got tighter ratios?


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2012)

Kontact said:


> With 10 or 11 cogs, I don't think custom cassettes make much sense anymore. There are very few missing ratios.


There are some unnecessary ones though, at least for non-racers/people riding solo exposed to the wind: 53/11, 53/12 and 50/11. Only time I was able to go faster by totally "spinning out" my 50/11 rather than just coasting was one time I was going down a steep hill with a 20mph tailwind. 

I currently am running an 11-28 cassette with 50x36 rings. After my cassette wears (or maybe before if I get some more money to burn) I'll probably get a 12-27 to replace it. 

I could easily see a heavier rider than myself (I'm 130lb) dropping the 12 gear and wanting something easier than a 36/27 "bailout" gear without sacrificing cruising gears. Since almost nobody makes cassettes that start at 13, that's where the potential benefit of a custom cassette comes in.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

PhotonFreak said:


> There are some unnecessary ones though, at least for non-racers/people riding solo exposed to the wind: 53/11, 53/12 and 50/11. Only time I was able to go faster by totally "spinning out" my 50/11 rather than just coasting was one time I was going down a steep hill with a 20mph tailwind.
> 
> I currently am running an 11-28 cassette with 50x36 rings. After my cassette wears (or maybe before if I get some more money to burn) I'll probably get a 12-27 to replace it.
> 
> I could easily see a heavier rider than myself (I'm 130lb) dropping the 12 gear and wanting something easier than a 36/27 "bailout" gear without sacrificing cruising gears. Since almost nobody makes cassettes that start at 13, that's where the potential benefit of a custom cassette comes in.


You're singing to the choir, my friend:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/components-wrenching/road-gearing-primer-267702.html


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Two things to think about: You will face hills, but I've seen you get up some serious steeps with some pretty tight cogs. That's not what you want to take on a big tour and mountain-quality hills, true enough. But IME, unless you are riding a tour-load, 34x32 ought to be a whole bunch of plenty.

I say this because for this sort of work, SRAM makes a 12-32 that's pretty unique. 
12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 24, 32 - a pretty normal cassette, plus an OMG low. Means you won't hate the wide-range decision for the 2650 miles that aren't on the serious steeps.

Or, I might consider taking along a big cassette for 'hill days' and something more normal for the bulk. With that many people and that many miles I'd assume there'd be a tool box in the SAG, but if not, toss one of these in:

Universal Cycles -- Stein Mini Cassette Lockring Driver

While Shimano will say it won't work, and you might not be perfectly happy with the way the shifting happens at the switchover, there's absolutely no reason that you can't take the spider from one cassette and the remaining 7 from another.

The limiter here is that they set the cogs on modern cassettes so that the teeth line up perfectly as the chain climbs perfectly when downshifting. Messing that up mostly just means that you have to soft-pedal your gear changes and use a little finesse on the shifters. Just like the good ol' days. That, and the top-three gears usually being on a spider.

Not necessarily for your need, but I'd guess that someone could do pretty well selling something along the lines of a 15-34.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Thanks for the replies, everybody. I appreciate the advice. I'm going to take a closer look at a stock Shimano 12X34 with a gear chart in my other hand. 

Dan-that short 20% on Dean Rd. on the RF we rode was kind of a killer, no?


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

danl1 said:


> I say this because for this sort of work, SRAM makes a 12-32 that's pretty unique.
> 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 24, 32 - a pretty normal cassette, plus an OMG low. Means you won't hate the wide-range decision for the 2650 miles that aren't on the serious steeps.


These have been discussed before, and no one has ever seen one that I've spoken to. Have you? I'm starting to believe it is a website typo.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

Mr. Versatile said:


> Yes, that's seriously low. I'm 69 years old, 6'3", 225# & will be riding 3700 miles across the US with a group of people whose oldest member aside from me is 32. There's a stretch of road in Utah that is ~14% grade for 7 continuous miles. Even though I'm a very experienced rider I think I'll be happy knowing I have gearing like that to fall back on if needed. If you're small(ish), and cycling is definitely a small person's sport, you might not realize what it takes to haul 225# up a long steep grade. Whatever you weigh try to imagine putting a trailer on your bike and loading it with a block of concrete equal to the difference in our weights. Then tell me what you think about what gears you might like to have along. I read your profile & know you're a racer. I raced a lot from the 60s to the 80s. My race weight was ~ 190# and for my body type that's not skinny, but slender. So yes, I could weigh less, but I don't.
> 
> The reason for making a custom cassette is to see if I can eliminate some of the gaps in the mid range. A 13 tooth would suffice for a small cog.


betcha 10 bucks you're back to racing weight by the time you're finished bud...............


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Kontact said:


> These have been discussed before, and no one has ever seen one that I've spoken to. Have you? I'm starting to believe it is a website typo.


I've not seen it, and the 12-32 I have seen them is far more conventional.

12,13,14,15,17,19,22,25,28,32

Darn shame if it is a typo - this sort of freewheel (back in the 7sp days) used to be popular for this kind of use.

Assuming it is a typo, it sure has been a persistent one. Someone ought to write them and ask.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Touch0Gray said:


> betcha 10 bucks you're back to racing weight by the time you're finished bud...............


That'd be nice. When I'm on the trip I'm going to studiously avoid any rolls with apple butter on them. 

Any word about Indy this year? It'll probably be when I'm gone anyway.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

june 29-30 24 hours of booty....Team Collin...so far there are 16 of us registered 24 Hours of Booty: 2012 24 Hours of Booty - Indianapolis, IN

We ride for friends.

We ride for family.

We ride for strangers...


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

Mr. V, I think you misinterpreted my response. If I wanted to say HTFU, I would have. What I meant was that back in the day, yeah I can understand the need for a customized cassette but with the advances in bike tech, manufacturers have responded pretty well to the needs of modern cyclists. Pretty much what ever type of gearing that you might need should be available if not from road bike sources than from mtn. Especially more so with 10 or 11spd vs 7 or 8spd of days gone by. 

As for my other comment about the 34x36 gearing being seriously low, I stand by that. I don't think that its a useful gear. I don't know what type of cyclist you are ie. spinner or masher. But in order to maintain forward motion with that gearing, you have to maintain a super high cadence with that gear in order to avoid falling over. 

The goal is to have a cassette that will provide you with the useful gearing for your trip with a good bail out gear. I don't think the 36 qualifies as a good bailout gear. Other than that, best of luck on your trip. I can only hope that when I'm 69, I'll be able to do the same.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I was using my 'cross bike for some errands the other day. It had a triple on it, since it's one of the ones that the product manager had in mind as maybe a commute bike for most users. I've put an 11-32 on it, as kind of an experiment. Still higher than MTB gearing.

I didn't expect to use, let alone like, my granny gear on pavement. But I actually quite enjoyed it.

Turns out my selected cadence is 105. Go figure. Anyway, low lows kick ass. (FWIW, I'm 30 and do reasonably well in MTB races with extended climbs.)


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

you can still buy single cog cassettes

Campagnolo Veloce, Centaur 
Miche
Ambrosio

they make single cog 10 speed cassettes ( and I think the Miche 11 is also single cogs ), the only problem is that they are heavier ( more steel material )

so to make higher level ( meaning lighter ) cassettes then you need to remove material and mount them on groups on a lighter carrier ( alloy on Shimano, Titanium on Campagnolo etc ), SRAM even has a monopiece cassette I think.

not ideal but lighter.

That said I find the Campagnolo 13-26 ideal for a Standard ( or even a super compact 52/36 ) Crankset, you get a good range including a 16 and a 18.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

brucew said:


> Some of us are willing to give up the 11 and 12 to get more gears with smaller steps between them in the middle of the range.


Including me, I ride a 13 - 26. I misread the OP, that's why I eliminated my response. I thought he was trying to find individual cogs for building an 11 - 36 because he said "mega range".


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

gamara said:


> Mr. V, I think you misinterpreted my response. If I wanted to say HTFU, I would have. What I meant was that back in the day, yeah I can understand the need for a customized cassette but with the advances in bike tech, manufacturers have responded pretty well to the needs of modern cyclists. Pretty much what ever type of gearing that you might need should be available if not from road bike sources than from mtn. Especially more so with 10 or 11spd vs 7 or 8spd of days gone by.
> 
> As for my other comment about the 34x36 gearing being seriously low, I stand by that. I don't think that its a useful gear. I don't know what type of cyclist you are ie. spinner or masher. But in order to maintain forward motion with that gearing, you have to maintain a super high cadence with that gear in order to avoid falling over.
> 
> The goal is to have a cassette that will provide you with the useful gearing for your trip with a good bail out gear. I don't think the 36 qualifies as a good bailout gear. Other than that, best of luck on your trip. I can only hope that when I'm 69, I'll be able to do the same.


I think maybe I did misunderstand the intent. Regardless, I definitely should HTFU! Training camp in Fla coming up this coming week. If I can find that Sram cassette mentioned by Danl1 I'd snap it up in a heartbeat. It sounds perfect. Shimano makes an 11X32 that looks doable, it's just that the 11 & 12 cogs are completely worthless. After playing around with the gear chart today I came up with what I think would be the ideal cassette. It would have a 13, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 28, 32. That's very close to the 12X25 I normally use in the mid range and still gives me a couple of grannies. According to the chart I have there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between a 32-36.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

Kontact said:


> These have been discussed before, and no one has ever seen one that I've spoken to. Have you? I'm starting to believe it is a website typo.


There's a Sram 1070 12-32 for sale on ebay for $75.00.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

redondoaveb said:


> There's a Sram 1070 12-32 for sale on ebay for $75.00.


Thanks. I'm going to take a look right now.


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## null. (Feb 16, 2012)

Kontact said:


> These have been discussed before, and no one has ever seen one that I've spoken to. Have you? I'm starting to believe it is a website typo.


Chain Reaction apparently has them in stock as well as 12-36.


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## Ranger1942 (Dec 13, 2011)

In the same age group as Mr. V.
Having experienced the close spaced setup on my FSA/Ultegra equipped Carbon Fibre, I'm now a huge fan of closer spaced gearing.
Makes climbs soooo much easier.
Unsure what Mr.V's running.
Velo Orange offers super compact sq.taper crankset in either the economy level (reworked Sugino rd600 triple)or the top line (custom made 137Q factor 557grm weight) 46/30 or 44/28
Run with a 9cog setup that would offer a fairly infinite range of gearing choices.
I'm running it on a 92 Paramount 8 cog setup and the 8cog deals are getting rare to find.
I took a 12-25 and a 11-30 and a rare 11-27 seven speed to build up one 13-28 and one 12-30 (13-15-17-19-21-23-25-28...12 14 16 18 21 24 27 30)
When I replaced the 11-25 ultegra 6600 with the 6750 derailleur and 11-28 cassette I dsiscovered the oem 11-25 had been a custom cobble as the rivets were off and each cog was seperate, so; perhaps a custom setup is feasable and doable.
I do know that shimano is allowing a 'trickle up' of the heavy tiagra 11-30 setup to both the 5700 and the 6700 series 10cog cassettes.
May be hope yet.
Good on ya for doing the cross country ride.!


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Ranger1942 said:


> In the same age group as Mr. V.
> Having experienced the close spaced setup on my FSA/Ultegra equipped Carbon Fiber, I'm now a huge fan of closer spaced gearing.
> Makes climbs soooo much easier.
> Unsure what Mr.V's running.
> ...


Thanks, Ranger. The bike I'm taking is a Giant Defy Advanced. It's a CF bike with Dura Ace, and has a compact crank (50X34). i considered changing it to a triple, but it would cost a fortune. I'd need a new crank, new left shifter, new BB, etc. Then when I get home from the trip I'd take it all off. I decided to stick with the double & a wide range mt. cassette. I'll need to buy a mt. bike rear derailleur & a new chain, which I need anyway.


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## Ranger1942 (Dec 13, 2011)

*Triple conversion would cost a fortune*

I hear ya on that.
The road triples come up sadly short of offering what guys our age need.
Going with a triple would require Deore to allow you to get the gearing you'd need.
Will running with the DA stuff up front allow use of the deore cassette and derailleur?
(Only so asked because DA seems litterly dedicated to DA components)


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Modern DA should have no problem with any Shimano 9-speed MTB derailleur and any Shimano or SRAM 10-speed cassette, whether badged for road or mountain.

But I'm willing to bet Mr. V already knows exactly how he's going to set his bike up, and all the technical issues (really minor anyway) involved.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

AndrwSwitch said:


> But I'm willing to bet Mr. V already knows exactly how he's going to set his bike up, and all the technical issues (really minor anyway) involved.


I do, but I still haven't figured out how to power it. :nonod:


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## Ranger1942 (Dec 13, 2011)

*Update on the Velo Orange setup*

This may just be me or my approaching 70 but after making the purchase and spending a ton of time setting the 137Q factor super compact 50.4bcd crankset on my 92 paramount I need to 'painfully' share this.
The crank pulls your feet (and thus your knees)inward substantially. Even the largest jis sq. taper bb offered (the 127) doesn't move the foot position out far enough.
Got 30 miles into a club ride and had to (first time ever) make a call for a ride. Knees felt like someone had belted em with a baseball bat.
Off the paramount for several days I took the CF out and had no problems.
Following day got on the paramount and...ohhhh boy.
Ortho doc says it's the placement of the knees with the cran cru crank setup.
Figured I'd share in case anyone was planning on going with this gorgeous and lightweight alternative to a triple.:cryin:


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## traverpen (Feb 4, 2013)

*Miche/Shimano mix*

I know this is an old thread, but here's what I'm doing.

Background:

I started road cycling last spring. I got a taste of climbing and liked the challenge. My bike came with a 50/34t crank and a 12-27t cassette. The bike is Shimano 105 minus the crank. On long days (approaching 100mi) of climbing (6000'+) I felt like I needed a lower gear to save myself for later climbs. Never found it plausible to do multiple cat 1 climbs or late cat 2's.

Project:

I just bought Miche 22t, 25t and 29t cogs and replaced the spidered 21,24,27. I saw that the Ultegra 11-28 goes 21,24,28. So I figured that 25-29 would be likely be acceptable. The Sram 1050 11-28 makes the 19,22,25 jump so that seemed plausible too. 

My concerns are the rear derailure capacity, smooth shifting under a load (or in general), cadence ranges during climbs and using the 22t cog with the 50t ring (something I found myself doing with the 21t cog many times, I also ended up with the 50x24 combo sometimes so I figured that the 22t cog would be ok.

Progress:

I got back from Thailand tonight and cannot sleep. The cogs arrived while I was gone. installation was easy and for reference I left the Shimano 1 mm spacer on behind the 29t cog.
Side note: a piece of 5/8" webbing makes a great substitute for a chain-whip. Wrap twice around the cassette and then twice tightly around the rim at the other end.
Shifting worked good right from the start. Needed a slight b screw adjustment on the derailure. Shifting seems less crisp between the 19t and 22t cogs than with the OEM setup. It could be that the ramps don't line up as well or the jump in teeth. Multiple gear shifts, up and down, worked fine across the modified area. I also tried the 50x22, 50x25 and the 50x29 combos and nothing broke. The 50x29 looked scary and the 50x25 didn't look great. I have the standard 105 derailure not the long cage. This was an observation in the garage, because its cold, wet and dark outside now. The Miche cogs have a different finish and their spacers are different colors. So it is not a visually appealing result.

Weather and time permitting I will road test it tomorrow, and post an update.


Other notes: 

I did not go with the Ultegra 12-30 because you lose the 16t cog, one that I find I use a lot. If I'm not satisfied with my set up I plan on getting a 13t outer cog and changing the final 4 cogs around to find a combo that I like. I would have gone with the 12-30, swaping to a 13t outer cog and adding a 16t to begin with if I could have found the 24,27,30 Ultegra spider separately. I like to experiment and didn't want to blow 75$ on a cassette plus 15$ more for a new 13t cog. The Tiagra 12-30 was not an option because 15-30t cogs are one unit (see Shimano tech docs, correct me if i'm wrong) and I wanted to insert a 16t cog.


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## traverpen (Feb 4, 2013)

So the AM ride through the neighborhood revealed that there is a slight problem with my project. Single shifts across the 19-22t cog worked the same as before, multiple shifts to a smaller cog worked fine. The problem was a double shift from 17t to 22t or 19t to 25t. For those instances the chain would jump to the next larger cog then quickly fall to the correct cog. Example: Double shift to larger cog from 17t to 22t, chain jumps momentarily to 25t and falls back to the 22t cog. This was almost constant while under a load and infrequent when I eased up during shifting.

I feel that I would find this very annoying and frustrating on a long ride with varied terrain. I tried adjusting the derailure with no luck several times. Then I compared the 21-27t unit with the installed 22,25,29t cogs and the spacing seemed slightly off.

I took the parts to work and mic'd them out. I found that the Miche cogs were .0102" (my outside mic reads to ten thousandths) thicker on average than the Shimano cogs and to compensate for this the Miche spacers are .0105" thinner than the Shimano spacers on average. This means that the gap between my 19t and 22t cogs is about .005" too small. The stack measurement of the Miche setup, 

{spacer(miche)/22t/spacer(miche)/25t/29t(built in spacer)} 

was .456" (depth mic only reads to thousandths). The stack measurement of the Shimano 21-27t unit was .474". The average cog/spacer combined thickness of loose cogs (without built in spacers) was .155" for Shimano and Miche. .155"x3 is .465". I redid the Miche stack measurement and replaced the first Miche spacer with a Shimano spacer and got .466".

My next step will be to acquire</SPAN></SPAN> an extra Shimano spacer or two. Then I'll swap it in and test how it works. With a Shimano Spacer the gap between the 19t and 22t cogs will be .005" too big, but this route seems the easiest so I'll go there first. I see three other alternatives if that doesn't work. 1) find a .005" spacer 2) have a spacer made that is in between the Shimano and Miche spacer thicknesses 3) Bight the bullet and get the Ultegra 12-30 and a 13t outer cog.

If I have to find a .005" spacer or have one made, I'd like to experiment with mixing an 18t Miche cog in and putting a 13t outer cog on to make a 13-29t cassette that is nice for windy days and slight inclines as well as climbing. Every time I ride without climbing I get bored, and every time I climb a lot I never feel like spinning out in the 50x12 combo.

For now the 21-27t Shimano unit will go back on. I'll repost when I know more.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Ranger1942 said:


> This may just be me or my approaching 70 but after making the purchase and spending a ton of time setting the 137Q factor super compact 50.4bcd crankset on my 92 paramount I need to 'painfully' share this.
> 
> The crank pulls your feet (and thus your knees)inward substantially. Even the largest jis sq. taper bb offered (the 127) doesn't move the foot position out far enough.
> Got 30 miles into a club ride and had to (first time ever) make a call for a ride. Knees felt like someone had belted em with a baseball bat.
> ...


Sounds like you're either not used to or not built for a crank with a truly low Q-factor. It happens. But a lot of ppl love 'em.

I myself have a bike with an old Dura Ace 7400 crank that has a Q-factor that's almost exactly the same as the crank you mention, and I find pedaling it to be pure heaven. :thumbsup:

Diff'rent strokes for different folks. There are some shoes/pedal systems, such as TIME, that let you adjust Q-factor at the shoe/cleat, which may be of help to you.


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## kindkind (Mar 4, 2013)

Hi, this has been a useful thread. I am looking for some advice. 
I have a '12 Fuji Roubaix road bike with Sora components. Ive got 34/50; 11/25. I need help climbing the 15% grade i have been trying to complete. The cassette is a 9 speed, and i spoke to the LBS about needing another gear and they suggested getting an SRAM PG-950 11-28T. The tech thought this was doable for the bike without having to get a new derailer. I read a tech doc on Sora that says 27t is the largest sprocket it can handle. 

Reading this thread, now i am wondering what my full range of options might be. Could i perhaps swap out the last 2 cogs with others, maybe 24-28? instead of 23-25? Is my cassette set up to handle that kind of customization?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

IIRC, the PG-950 cassette has a series of individual cogs and spacers riveted together. So you can remove the rivet and substitute other cogs.

Since this is "not done" it may be a wash as to whether it saves you any money over just getting a PG-950 that comes out of the box as an 11-28. I'd also suggest moving to a 12-28 unless you really need to be able to hit 36 mph on the flats. Big jumps can be really annoying, so giving up your smallest cog when you add larger cogs keeps things a bit tighter, nice as long as you're not losing a gear ratio you use.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

brucew said:


> Miche makes loose cogs for Shimano and Campy. There are some here.
> 
> A while back I found another place with a much better selection, and they had them in genuine Shimano too. Alas, I didn't bookmark the link. If I find it again, I'll edit it in here.


I did a Miche shimano 9 speed cassette for a 1x9 project I was working on. It worked, but it wasn't great and certainly not as great as regular cassettes.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> Ive got 34/50; 11/25. I need help climbing the 15% grade i have been trying to complete.


2 suggestions (seriously)

-work on climbing out of the saddle at lower rpm's

-get a triple crank.

Just out of curiousity, how long is the 15% grade?


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## kindkind (Mar 4, 2013)

JCavilia said:


> 2 suggestions (seriously)
> 
> -work on climbing out of the saddle at lower rpm's
> 
> ...


Hi!
I just google earthed it and its just about2.5 miles, 10-15% the first half and about 20-25% for the second half. 
I do need to remember to get out of my seat, but wouldn't adding a triple crank mean I would need to upgrade other components like shifters and derailleurs as well?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

kindkind said:


> Hi!
> I just google earthed it and its just about2.5 miles, 10-15% the first half and about 20-25% for the second half.
> I do need to remember to get out of my seat, but wouldn't adding a triple crank mean I would need to upgrade other components like shifters and derailleurs as well?


Really? A mile at >20%? That's a hell of a road. Where is it, if you don't mind my asking?

I think you're right, with those components you'd probably need at least a new left shifter, and probably rear derailleur (for the extra chain wrap).


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## kindkind (Mar 4, 2013)

On second glance I noticed there is an average slope calvulation for the harder section of just 14.5%. It has shorter sections that reach 25% but not sustained for the full mile.
Would getting an 11-28t cassette help me out much?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

kindkind said:


> On second glance I noticed there is an average slope calvulation for the harder section of just 14.5%. It has shorter sections that reach 25% but not sustained for the full mile.
> Would getting an 11-28t cassette help me out much?


I'm still curious to look at the exact section of road on the map. Those calculations aren't always reliable.

As for whether it will help "much," that's a subjective term, but I can do the math. 34/28 would be about 9% lower than 34/25. If you're climbing at 6 mph, you're turning about 56 rpm with your current gear; the 28 would have you at 63 rpm. Is that "much" help? Who knows?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I think there are some nonlinear aspects of the difficulty of climbing in different gear combinations. I think there's a region where it doesn't matter much, and cadences at the top and bottom where it gets a lot harder quite quickly.

That said, you can also slap a mountain bike cassette on your bike and get much lower climbing gears. You'd need a new rear derailleur, but that's cheaper and easier than replacing the crank and left shifter.


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## traverpen (Feb 4, 2013)

*Refresher:
*I was customizing a Shimano 105 12-27 cassette. I acquired Miche 22, 25 and 29t cogs. I swapped these in place of the 21, 24 and 27t spider. I had slight shifting problems when double shifting to an larger cog. I had a Miche space between the 19t 105 cog and the 22t Miche cog. I feel that this made too small of a space. See my previous posts in this thread for more info.
<O</O
*Update:
*I ordered some Shimano spacers from a local bike shop. They got them for free and gave them to me for FREE!!! The place was Rubber Soul Bikes in Fresno, Ca Rubber Soul Bicycles | Fresno, CA | Trek,Cervelo,Cannondale,Electra,Shimano,Bontrager,Colnago,Pinarello,Salsa,Look,Retül,Guru I always get great help and service from them. When I put the Shimano spacer in between the 19t Shimano cog and the 22t Miche cog the shifting problems vanished. Also of note, I forgot to put on the inner Shimano spacer that goes on the hub first. So unfortunately I changed two things, not one and can't say that the Miche spacer was 100% the issue, but I may play with that in the future, regardless it works fine now.
<O</O
*New Project:
*For a new project I have acquired an 11-32 IRD cassette. I am using it to make a 13-32 cassette. This morning I found that the following combination worked well; IRD 13t(yes the 13t cog worked as a first cog, not ideal, but worked), 14t Shimano 105, Shimano 105 Spacer, 15t 105, 105 Spacer, 16t 105, 105 spacer, 17t 105, 105 spacer, 19t IRD, IRD spacer, 21t IRD, Dura Ace Spacer (1 of 4 I got for FREE), 25t Miche, 28+32t IRD Spider, IRD thin spacer. Now that I know that this works, I'll pick up a 24t Miche cog and a 13t first position cog. It looks as though that I would be putting myself at risk of damaging the hub splines by using the 13t IRD cog since it wasn't designed for that and doesn't have the special splines like a first position cog. The reason that I used a 19t IRD cog was that the shifting from a 19t 105 cog to the 21t IRD cog was poor. When I put the 19t IRD cog in shifting improved.

I have the standard 105 Rear Derailleur, not the long cage. I had the "b" screw all the way in, and just barely had enough space for the 32t, but it worked. This set up shifted well and I used the same chain that I used for my 12-27 cassette. The only concern is what might happen if I accidentally go 50x32, I tried 50x29 and it looked wrong, but the world did not end. I plan to avoid 50x28 because that isn’t good either, so if I avoid that then I should definitely avoid 50x32. I plan on being very cognizant of that while riding this setup. I only plan on riding this when I have a big day planned. Like C2K or a trans-sierra ride. I gotta think about riding up to Tioga Pass from 395 with this thing....<O</O


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