# 2011 F4 frame crack - resolution?



## srenkin

I'm very sorry to discover that my 2011 F4 (purchased in November 2011) has a crack in the middle of the right seat stay, and I'm looking for advice from others who have been in this situation.

I found the crack after I fell off the bike at a rolling stop during a 50mi group ride on the Silver Comet Trail in late March. There is no other damage to the bike and I only have about 500 miles on it. 

I took it to my LBS (authorized Felt dealer) who sent photos of the damage to Felt. They replied that it looks like an impact rather than a manufacturing defect, and as such they will not replace the frame under warranty. They do offer a warranty replacement frame at a reduced cost, but the addition of freight and the build-up cost by the LBS approaches $1,000 total.

So my other choice is carbon fiber repair. I've contacted Calfee who I'm sure will do a great job but it's not cheap (nearly $500) and I'm concerned that I'll be riding a frame with no warranty.

What would you do?


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## srenkin

Come on now ... NOBODY has cracked a Felt CF frame? Any advice or shared experience would be appreciated - thanks!


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## wotnoshoeseh

I did have one too - right rear stay, although not at the same spot. LBS suspected chain suck, put the claim into Felt and they would not warranty. They ended up offering me a crash replacement, and the LBS comp'd the build for me. Still was not cheap.
I ended up with an F4 frame, as the FC was not available. Interestingly, by some strange coincidence, all the Felt carbon frames now come with the chain suck protective plate behind the chainset on the right hand side rear stay.


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## jmorgan

How much is the LBS charging? If its a lot, get the frame and swap the stuff over yourself, will help you learn about the bike, if you have any issues at the end take it in and let them fix any issues, but there are a ton of resources online for help on installing everything.


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## srenkin

$140 to strip the frame for shipping out and rebuilding when it returns.


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## srenkin

Well, I'm going for the repair vs. replacement. I'll post photos when the bike returns. Wish me luck ...


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## wotnoshoeseh

Hmm. The warranty replacement for me was just under $700. I'd have thought that that was worth it for the extra peace of mind....


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## philbennett

calfee will do a fine job, though at $700 for warranty replacement, that's a decision that could go either way. I've had a calfee repair and seen others... peace of mind isn't a problem, it will be solid work. more about resale, as I feel a moral need to reveal repairs before sale, even if you cant see them.


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## srenkin

Piece of mind does have value - but it comes at a higher price and that's why this was a tough decision. Here's what swayed me to the repair:

The price that was quoted to me for a crash replacement frame was slightly higher than your $700. There's the cost of shipping for the new frame, plus you have to ship the old frame back to Felt in return. All in, it's about $500 more than the repair.

Calfee has a 5 year warranty on their repair. The rest of the frame is solid, not worth tossing out. I've had my bike for just five months, but there's no way to get a replacement with 2011 graphics anymore. So the replacement would be a 2012 F4 or an FC. I like mine better.

I'll post photos when it comes back.


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## Racersir

I had a crack on my 2011 F5 frame but it was on the seatpost, I was lucky that Felt gave me a new 2012 FC frame under warranty, but checked with another Felt dealer I was only charged $30 for the strip and the new frame rebuilt by my LBS. If it is close in price I would go with the new frame. Good luck


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## Genshammer

*Carbon repair*

We can also help if you decide to get your Felt repaired. Here's a recent example of a big repair we did on a Felt F1. Both the top tube and down tube had significant damage due to a bike on bike collision.

http://www.carbonframerepair.com/index.php/felt-f1/


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## tribe

Genshammer said:


> We can also help if you decide to get your Felt repaired. Here's a recent example of a big repair we did on a Felt F1. Both the top tube and down tube had significant damage due to a bike on bike collision.
> 
> Felt F1 « Carbon Fiber Bike Frame Repair



Wow that's amazing! Is it cost effective such a big repair?


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## Genshammer

*repairs*

That repair was very expensive. In excess of $600. So I guess cost effectiveness is all up to the person paying the bill!


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## Camilo

I think these carbon repair threads are fascinating. Obviously, carbon fiber is a very repairable material in many cases. $600 repair for a $2000 frame is not a bad deal especially if it results in a perfect looking frame.


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## jmorgan

Camilo said:


> I think these carbon repair threads are fascinating. Obviously, carbon fiber is a very repairable material in many cases. $600 repair for a $2000 frame is not a bad deal especially if it results in a perfect looking frame.


Yea but $600 for a repaired frame or $1000 for a new frame? I think I would take a new frame.


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## Camilo

jmorgan said:


> Yea but $600 for a repaired frame or $1000 for a new frame? I think I would take a new frame.


Indeed, that's a more difficult question. I would probably go with the new frame too, depending on how easy the extra $400 was to come up with. There were times when given the choice, it would be the $600 no question.

The seat stay repair in question I doubt is anywhere close to $600 - smaller repair area, simpler repair, little or no repainting or rebadging.

I also have this bug in me that if something can be repaired essentially as good as new for a reasonable cost (compared to replacement), I have a real hard time abandoning it. I would try to give it to someone who would see the value of taking the free frame and for $600 getting pretty much a $2,000 frame. (remember that guy isn't eligible for the $1K crash replacement program).

But a repaired frame probably would have enough stigma that it wouldn't be worth the cost of repair to any normally skeptical person.


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## 95zpro

I agree the repaired frame should ride like new, and only the owner would really know where the repair was made. As mentioned though if sold, you should be forthcoming about the repair, but I think you will have many years of life in that frame. Post pics when you get it back in 3-4 weeks.


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## srenkin

Good news - looks like Calfee Design has completed the repair, and the frame will be shipped today back to my LBS for rebuilding. With a little luck I should be back on my bike next weekend!

The repair was $300, another $100 for clear coat. Replacement decals (a Felt logo and a white pinstripe) would have added another $200, so I opted to skip those. The repair will be obvious, but like Camilo I couldn't rationalize trashing a 6-month old $2,000 frame for a crack in the seatstay. 

I'll post pictures.


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## WhatGoodIsAName

While not much help now. My Z5 (2011) recently developed a crack in nearly the same location. Unfortunately I don't have any pictures with me right now for comparison, and only my word that I haven't crashed the bike. 

Now after by bike being in the shop for 3 weeks waiting on the shop and Felt, Felt won't cover it under warranty and the shop would want +$900 for the crash replacement and labor. I'm curious what kind of impact Felt believes is happening that cracks the seat stay but leaves no other marks on the bike/rider.

I hope your repair works well for you, and its a tempting option to me.


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## srenkin

I've attached a photo so you can see the crack on my frame. It took me a few weeks to figure out what happened - I don't know for certain but I have a pretty good idea. In my case I did fall at low speed, but I fell to the left and the crack is on the right. I was mystified really - could the bike be so fragile that just the fall to the ground cracked the carbon? Both my LBS and Felt saw the photos and said it was an impact, and I was given the same crash replacement option (at the same price). Later I realized that it was probably my heel (in my stiff carbon sole shoe) that struck the seatstay, because both my feet released from the SPD pedals when I hit. 

I wonder if you accidentally kicked your seatstay at some point as well?


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## WhatGoodIsAName

I got a better look at it today with the bike torn down. Mine's significantly little lower on the non-dive side seat stay. I cannot recall any time that I may have kick that location.

I first noticed it fixing a flat, caused by glass, and having the paint that is missing in the first image come off in my hand. It appears to me that the only point which could be an impact is in the second image (the trailing side of the stay between the E and L in the decal). The only hypothesis I can come up with to possibly explain an impact there would be something getting caught in the spokes. However, this seems unlikely given the object would have had to remain close to the center of the wheel, there is no apparent damage to the wheel/spokes, and it did not interrupt my riding.

The shop is willing to send the frame into Felt for them to inspect and possibly warranty, but I'm not really sure that is any better then just getting the frame repaired. It's been frustrating having to wait three weeks just to be told Felt won't cover it, I'm hopeful that I'll have a bike back by the beginning of June.


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## srenkin

I don't understand why it took three weeks for your LBS to get that response from Felt?? Mine took just 24 hours. If you're certain that an impact was not the cause, it might be worth it to send it to Felt and find out if it's a manufacturing defect. Though they didn't replace my frame, I've heard their warranty support is good (and fair).


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## bwbishop

When my frame was warrantied I think I paid $100 to my bike shop for tear-down, shipping, and rebuild. Felt replaced my 2010 Z5 with a 2010 Zc (which I actually like the look of much better.)

I love my Felt. Great bike.


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## WhatGoodIsAName

Thanks for the feed back. I'm not sure why it has taken this long,

I think I'll have the shop send the frame in to Felt. Even if Felt doesn't warranty it, hopefully they will be able to gain from its analysis.


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## Rashadabd

You guys are making me nervous about buying a FC with all of this talk about Felt frames cracking. There seems to be a number of people that have experienced this on the web. Is this a common occurrence with Felt F series bikes? Thanks for the info btw?


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## WhatGoodIsAName

Hard to say its a common occurrence with so few data points. While I don't have any numbers, I would tend to think Felt's failure rate is similar to other manufactures. I initially posted in this thread because srenkin seat stay issue looked similar to mine. However, the description of his incident would suggest they are unrelated. My bike and bwbishop's are both Z series and broke in different places. Also, most of the other post about F series issues seem to relate to older aluminum frames.

For what it is worth, up to this point I have been really happy with my Z5. It is comfortable in long rides, and handles very well.


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## Fireform

I've had 2009 and 2010 F1sl frames. About 18000 miles and no cracks. The first one broke in a fast peloton crash that also broke two Pinarello Princes along with other bikes. The other is sound as the day I bought it. 

Fantastic frames. If I did more climbing I would not bother with anything else.


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## Rashadabd

Good to hear.


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## Rashadabd

and thanks


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## plimpington2

Wow, the damage in the Z frame above looks more extensive (though maybe because the pic is closer up. It looks like a lot of paint and finish has come off, but I gather than spantaneous cracks will also bring a lot of finish and paint off as well. It would be very instructive to be able to compare what a spontaneous crack (due to a latent defect) looks like compared to an impact defect. Now you have me worried about my own frame (though it has not given me any problems).

Justin


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## srenkin

I don't think Felt frames have issues with cracks any more than another large manufacturer like Giant, Trek, Specialized etc. And to be clear, I don't consider my frame issue to be a problem with design or manufacturing. I wish it hadn't happened (lost 4 weeks of prime riding weather!) but if I had to do it all over again I'd still buy a carbon frame instead of aluminum.


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## srenkin

The wait is finally over - it's here!

The frame was shipped by Calfee last Wednesday (two days earlier than expected) and arrived on Tuesday. My LBS built it up today and I brought it home after work. I've attached photos of the repair - the paint finish blends nicely with the original clear coat. The carbon fiber weave on the patch doesn't match the original exactly, but it's not too bad. I'm re-installing my computer tonight, and looking forward to many happy miles this weekend.

As you can see, the Felt logo and white pinstripe were sanded off. I opted not to replace them - that would have added $200 to the repair. However, I just bought a 4.5" Felt sticker on eBay for $4 and I can get some white automotive pinstripe for cheap.


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## jmorgan

Looks good


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## Cal44DE

Just to add to the thread. About a rear ago, I had Calfee do a repair on my wife's ZW1. We believe that someone dropped her bike and bent the rear deraileur hanger and never said anything. Then at the next race when she went out for a warmup ride the hanger snapped and the derailer caught in the spokes and ended up putting a pretty good crack in the chainstay. The bike was brand new and was her baby, so I had Calfee do the repairs and match the paint and decals. Bike looked brand new! Amazing.

Unfortunately, I finally got my dream bike, a 2011 AR5, about three months ago and just had my first crash this weekend. Didnt seem all that bad, I ended up with some pretty good road rash but no broken bones. The AR5, didnt fair very well. Both chainstays snapped and one of the seatstays cracked as well. Waiting to hear what the crash replacement will be from Felt, but with three breaks to repairs the crash replacement will most likely be cheaper than Calfee.

How exactly does the crash replacement work? Do they just try and workout a deal based on what Felt has on hand or do they have to match the exact frame? Overall this does leave me a little scared of carbon fiber frames. I mean crashes happen whether you are a good rider or bad. Do I have to worry about a cracked frame every time someone knocks my bike off the rack at a triathlon or some novice falls over at a stop light? Let alone crashing.


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## Fireform

When I had a crash replacement, Felt hunted around in inventory and found the same model (F1sl) in the next model year. They may offer you different deals on different frames.

I think you've had some bad luck. The frame I had replaced had survived two prior crashes with no problem, and the crash that broke it would have broken any frame. Two Pinarellos and an alloy Cannondale also perished.


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## srenkin

What I gathered from my experience is that in certain situations, Felt will sell you a new frame with warranty at a "crash replacement" price much lower than retail. Exactly how much probably varies by frame type. Stock is probably limited to what's on hand - ie, whatever the current colors are, or a reasonable equivalent.

Regarding frame durability - I know there's different opinions about CF. Fortunately we live in a time when you can get a strong, lightweight frame made of steel, aluminum or CF. The only limit is what you want to spend. The advantage of CF is its strength-to-weight ratio. But it doesn't bend ... it breaks. 

So the question is this - if you had three frames of the same weight, would steel or aluminum fare any better than CF in a crash? And if the steel or aluminum tubes were damaged, would they be any cheaper to repair than CF? I don't know the answer, but that's what I'd use for comparison.


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## bwbishop

For similar frames of different materials, you'd have a similar result. An aluminum frame would have a dent/bend large enough that you wouldn't want to ride it. The only difference is that you have more options to fix aluminum because bending/welding is more of a layman's craft vs carbon fiber, so there are more people that can fix it (though I'm sure finding a real craftsman who can fix aluminum to like new is probably just as hard to find and just as expensive as fixing carbon).

That being said, I had a great experience with Felt warranty. They replaced my 2010 Z5 with a 2010 Zc and I was back up and riding in no time and I would recommend them to anyone.

Cheers


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## flyin

My 2011 Z6 cracked in the same spot and felt replaced it last week? Maybe it helps that i work for a felt dealer but i had no issues with them replacing it.


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## WhatGoodIsAName

plimpington2 said:


> Wow, the damage in the Z frame above looks more extensive (though maybe because the pic is closer up.


Most of the missing paint came off in large flakes, probablly due flex in the seat stay after the beak occurred.



flyin said:


> My 2011 Z6 cracked in the same spot and felt replaced it last week? Maybe it helps that i work for a felt dealer but i had no issues with them replacing it.


This relates to my largest frustration with trying to get a replacement frame so far. In that, when there is a single point of damage to the frame (outside a joint or bend) it seems to be arbitrary what gets warranted. It may be that because you work for a dealer you were better able to communicate your situation to Felt. In my case it seems the only time the shop has contacted Felt is after I call the shop to try to get a status update.

As it stands for me, it has now been 6 weeks since I initially took my bike in for replacement. The shop says they got a crash replacement frame from Felt on Thursday (6/7) and they should have it rebuild by Monday or Tuesday. So I'm pretty psyched about the possibility of being able to ride again after over a month off , but thoroughly disgruntled about the process.


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## DanRC

A few months ago my wife fell against a curb and her Felt ZW6 suffered two cracks the right seat stay. We had it repaired by Spyder Composites. They did a great job, the price was reasonable, and she has been happily riding it since. Enjoy your repaired frame.


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## flyinbriyin

*AR5 broke in low speed incident.*

It sounds like carbon is not the perfect bike material...but then again...what is? I'm debating on whether or not to go back to aluminum after my ordeal. My 2011 AR5 cracked after a broken hangar sent my deraileur into the reat tire at 12 mph. 

I'm opting for the crash replacement. It's going to be another $1000 for the AR road frame to be replaced. This stuff is sure getting pricy!!!!!


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## Rashadabd

BMC appears to be recognizing that carbon isn't for everyone and released an aluminum version of their new Gran Fondo bike that is as light as many carbon bikes. 

BMC GranFondo GF02 - YouTube


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