# Motors



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Per LeMond, they're being used more than we think. Should motorized doping carry the same suspension terms? I feel that being caught with one should come with a fairly harsh penalty as it would be pretty blatant. 

LeMond: The UCI should use a heat gun to detect motors | Cyclingnews.com

Not sure if something thermal will work well before motor use and/or if riders were smart enough not to use it near the finish. Also not sure how much heat they generate. 

Also, why no doping suspicions/comments with Contador on LeMond's part??? None??? How many grand tours has Contador won/kept???


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

He's made a few. He's said that bike changes, like Contador is now known for, should not be allowed. He said they create suspicion and that unless there's an actual problem they shouldn't be able to do it. He has criticized him for doing it in this Giro.

There's a large thread at cyclingnews discussing this topic. Basically: Bottom bracket motors have been around since about 2004 and used in the peloton many times. There's many riders that have said so, not just Greg. Several years ago hub motors surfaced and most believe that's what's primarily being used now. There's lots of conspiracy about hub motors and this year's Giro. I won't go into all of the details.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Please elaborate regarding this year's Giro. I haven't watched any due to work, home live, and cycling.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

There's talk of Contador's mysterious puncture not being a puncture at all but a motor ditch. 

View topic - The doped bike exists (video of pro version)! - Cyclingnews Forum

View topic - giro doping thread - Cyclingnews Forum


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

That's wild. I remember the talk of motors a few years back with the likes of FC. 

Given Contador's supension and ties to "some" teams with sketchy managers, one would hope he's under the microscope and can be caught soon. He's already very close to winning his 7th GT, 9th if he didn't try the Spanish beef/Carne Astana.


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

All they need is a FLIR camera. Heat in the hubs or BB would pop out on the screen.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Q: On the podium you held up three fingers, do you believe you’ve won the Giro d’Italia three times?

AC: For me, I think I’ve won the Giro d'Italia three times. I think all the people who have watched that race [2011] on television and all the riders who raced against me, know I think I’ve won the Giro three times.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

There is a video on the Steephill site that shows Bertie's bike being checked after the stage. The is no narrative but you can see them taking the crankset apart and checking the BB. It's actually pretty cool done in secrecy in a tent that only has 2 guys in there.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

BacDoc said:


> There is a video on the Steephill site that shows Bertie's bike being checked after the stage. The is no narrative but you can see them taking the crankset apart and checking the BB. It's actually pretty cool done in secrecy in a tent that only has 2 guys in there.


But they are checking the bike he finished on, not the one he ditched.

The Italians are taking it very seriously, there were several police officers and a magistrate monitoring the inspections. That makes you think there must be something to the rumours.

I thought it was pretty silly until the Cyclingtips site showed a bike shop that installs motors in the seat tubes of bikes. They can cut apart a carbon frame, install a motor, and put it back together looking like new. It's very impressive. They made a joke about Strava and Fondo records falling soon. That makes me suspicious of all the riders who dismiss the rumours as stupid and ridiculous, when in fact it looks so technically possible.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Are they checking TT bikes? 

(And disc wheels?)


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

I am not even skeptical, I am adamant this is a silly conspiracy theory.

First of all, it is something too easy to detect and prove compared to pharma or blood doping. Believe it when I see it, but it is a very black and white thing, unlike with drugs and blood transfusions. The evidence would remain out there in black and white, UCI could check the whole stash of bikes. So, I think far too risky for teams to monkey with

2nd of all - having built an ebike myself, the kind of watts you want will require a pretty heavy battery. And even if you only wanted 100 watt boost, you have to haul this heavy battery and motor around which is going to add up to a bare minimum of 5-10lbs. In my case my motor puts our 500 watts to go 10km with a battery that weighs 25 lbs (and motor another 10 lbs). In the peleton where the bikes are all around 16 lbs or less, I mean just hang it on a fish scale, if it run 19 lbs or less, you are wasting your time. So even if you get a paltry 100 watts (lot of it lost as heat) you're gonna need a e-motor+battery system that cannot weigh under 4lbs. no fricken way, imho

And on a climb the equations get far far worse. That kind of extreme ultralight motor+battery in the 4lbs range ( which I think is vaporware) is going to be a huge weight disadvantage on any climb when it is not being operated. And the watts you want going uphill are pretty insane, so you're gonna get 1-5 minutes from it maybe. So what you're gonna change a bike 3/4 of the way up a climb, run the motor, then swap bikes again? laughable.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I am not even skeptical, I am adamant this is a silly conspiracy theory.
> 
> First of all, it is something too easy to detect and prove compared to pharma or blood doping. Believe it when I see it, but it is a very black and white thing, unlike with drugs and blood transfusions. The evidence would remain out there in black and white, UCI could check the whole stash of bikes. So, I think far too risky for teams to monkey with
> 
> ...


Check the cycling forums link above, the battery and motor physics are there. Apparently, the tech is already being used, lite weight battery and motor to produce 50 watts for 20-30min. That is enough to power up a climb and put significant time on the stage.

I was and still am skeptical for the reasons you stated but the tech is already there.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I am not even skeptical, I am adamant this is a silly conspiracy theory.
> 
> First of all, it is something too easy to detect and prove compared to pharma or blood doping. Believe it when I see it, but it is a very black and white thing, unlike with drugs and blood transfusions. The evidence would remain out there in black and white, UCI could check the whole stash of bikes. So, I think far too risky for teams to monkey with
> 
> ...


why would it be insane watts needed uphill? if a rider goes from 400 to 440 watts he will cruise away from the rest. that's only a 40watt engine, or a weak light bulb. 
That's a 10% improvement. 
For comparison, 4lbs extra is ~4/(150+15)~2.5% disadvantage.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

It should result in team expulsion, period. Doping can be done in private without the team knowing, but the team mechanics taking care of the bikes should be making sure there are no motors.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Are they checking TT bikes?
> 
> (And disc wheels?)


The average TT frame has a lot more tubing to potentially conceal stuff. The disc wheel could potentially house a hub and battery.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

love4himies said:


> It should result in team expulsion, period. Doping can be done in private without the team knowing, but the team mechanics taking care of the bikes should be making sure there are no motors.


I agree.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

spade2you said:


> The average TT frame has a lot more tubing to potentially conceal stuff. The disc wheel could potentially house a hub and battery.


Yes, I really believe that this is *more* likely in TTs. 

This could be put in a disc wheel:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

So, we'd have to use some sort of thermal scope, x-ray machine, and watch their power meter data for jumps in speed without jumps in power?


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

spade2you said:


> So, we'd have to use some sort of thermal scope, x-ray machine, and watch their power meter data for jumps in speed without jumps in power?


Thermal camera would show it instantly, in real time. Unless someone can make a motor that doesn't generate heat. EPA uses them in fly bys from helicopters all the time.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Those cameras are such rare technology. So expensive too. I'm sure the UCI just can't afford one.

They will show you them taking a crank off though, that'll let you know they're... um... policing things. 

We can all trust the UCI.


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

Crazy expensive. FLIR E4 Infrared Camera with MSX - FLIR Systems

FLIR ONE? Personal Thermal Imager by FLIR? - See the Heat°


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

skinewmexico said:


> Thermal camera would show it instantly, in real time. Unless someone can make a motor that doesn't generate heat. EPA uses them in fly bys from helicopters all the time.


well if the ceramic bearings commercials are true all standard bearing bikes would be red hot


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

OK now I have to temper my skepticism, LOL. One of my other hobbies in model aircraft flying. I have many models running 300 watts or so, with only the power system and battery together coming to only 500g or less. That would deliver runtime of only about 2 minutes at 300 watts though. if I fly at only 50 watts, runtime can increase to easily 15 minutes. Now that is with off the shelf modern sophisticated lipo+brushless motor and speed controller, built for max power to weight ratio. 

Might just be right in the ballpark for delivering a mech doping boost for a riding dealing with the final part of a big climb or a sprint, where 50 watts is enough to make a difference from 1st to second, or save a 20 second loss of time on GC.

I stand .. corrected! As others have stated - the physic do support this as a concept.

Also, I think it is something more easily detected than drug or blood doping. but times keep changing/ They could find ways to mask and hide the doping-motor mech, like having a retracting gear drive that disappears up into the downtube when not in use.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Once upon a time, the tech of blood doping or other forms of cheating would have seemed ridiculous in the extreme. 

I'm glad they're being vigilant about it. If they catch someone, it will justify the effort. If they don't, perhaps it was a deterrent.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MMsRepBike said:


> Those cameras are such rare technology. So expensive too. I'm sure the UCI just can't afford one.
> 
> They will show you them taking a crank off though, that'll let you know they're... um... policing things.
> 
> We can all trust the UCI.












I would think a cheap and effective solution might show changes in temperature. I use one for brewing. I refilled my Cycleops with hydraulic fluid and it gets hotter, which the laser thermometer shows and my hand can confirm. With zilch for experience with bike motors, no clue how much heat they generate and if these would be sensitive enough.

I think I've seen thermal rifle scopes that are a few grand. They could probably shoot through walls, but would be worthless in a zombie apocalypse.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Might just be right in the ballpark for delivering a mech doping boost for a riding dealing with the final part of a big climb or a sprint, where 50 watts is enough to make a difference from 1st to second, or save a 20 second loss of time on GC.


20seconds on GC? it's a good 3 minutes on a 1000meter altitude climb.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Use descends to charge up the supercapacitor, then discharge it into the motor on ascends. Just like a Honda Insight.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

myhui said:


> Use descends to charge up the supercapacitor, then discharge it into the motor on ascends. Just like a Honda Insight.


you're on to something here.

batteries don't have to be huge if they're being charged constantly.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> you're on to something here.
> 
> batteries don't have to be huge if they're being charged constantly.


except they won't be: even if ignoring lack of efficiency charging (and the dynamos are not very efficient): one is ~3-4 times faster down than up a steep climb. So the 50 watt would have to be recharged at 150-200watt, which is quite a bit.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I gotta admit to loving the thought of a pro rider in shoes and team kit standing next to a burning bike trying to figure out how to explain that one off.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

recharging will happen during braking or something like that. 

you know, science.

or something.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Capacitors are used to store the captured energy during descends.

Something like this:

https://www.samwha.com/goodsDetail.html?f_num=35










The rating, 3000 farads, on that thing was impossible even 20 years ago. All it means is it can store a lot of energy that's pumped into it in a very short time.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> recharging will happen during braking or something like that.
> 
> you know, science.
> 
> or something.


Except I read that brakes and racing = loosing pretty much.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Just like on hybrid cars: regenerative braking comes first, then friction braking.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

There's no need to recharge during the ride. 

Something tiny could make a huge difference. 20 watts for 20 minutes of a climb or a TT could change the outcome of an entire stage race.


Keep it simple, small, and undetectable.


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

And if they could figure out how to make a motor that ran on gasoline or some other similar fuel yet was quiet and cool enough to be undetectable, then the potential advantage is much larger. The energy density (J/kg) of gasoline is significantly higher than that of LiPo batteries.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

They need a miniature fuel cell.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

den bakker said:


> 20seconds on GC? it's a good 3 minutes on a 1000meter altitude climb.


I don't think they could get enough watt-hours to get such a huge margin of minutes from a ultralightweight system. And they might not have to, pro racing is often a game of seconds and millimetres, from being an also ran to getting a 7 figure contract


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## phil2161 (Dec 29, 2014)

What has the world of cycling gotten to when people are possibly putting motors on or in their bikes ? I can understand doping to an extent but this is just sad if true


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I don't think they could get enough watt-hours to get such a huge margin of minutes from a ultralightweight system. And they might not have to, pro racing is often a game of seconds and millimetres, from being an also ran to getting a 7 figure contract


well to quote you: " if I fly at only 50 watts, runtime can increase to easily 15 minutes." so the easily part is already 1m30. surely the battery was not the absolutely very best?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

myhui said:


> The rating, 3000 farads, on that thing was impossible even 20 years ago. All it means is it can store a lot of energy that's pumped into it in a very short time.


At 2.7 Volts that calculates out to less than 3 Watt hours. The energy density of caps is far lower than batteries, which as has been pointed out is far less than actual fuel. I'd bet the motors would be Lithium Ion powered, not with Caps. Caps are great at regeneration, but on a climb that won't help.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

DrSmile said:


> At 2.7 Volts that calculates out to less than 3 Watt hours.


Or 300 watts for about 36 seconds.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Whoa .... Nellie ... Hold on tight! Woooi!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

phil2161 said:


> What has the world of cycling gotten to when people are possibly putting motors on or in their bikes ? I can understand doping to an extent but this is just sad if true


Body builders inject synthol oil into their muscles to increase volume. It's not even them any more. (If you want to see some disgusting images of side effects, just check youtube or google)


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## phil2161 (Dec 29, 2014)

Local Hero said:


> Body builders inject synthol oil into their muscles to increase volume. It's not even them any more. (If you want to see some disgusting images of side effects, just check youtube or google)


I was in to competitive bodybuilding for a long time prior to road cycling so I'm very familiar with the pro's and con's of that sport. With that being said a motor is still just way too much, if this is true why not just have a person help push a slower rider up hill ?


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

myhui said:


> Use descends to charge up the supercapacitor, then discharge it into the motor on ascends. Just like a Honda Insight.


Ferrari has used their KERS system on several hypercars and in Formula 1.

Kinetic energy recovery system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

If you used an IR detector to find a heat source coming from a motor inside the BB, it would require decent resolution. After all, you'd be trying to find a small spot source that is being masked by the rider's hot, sweaty leg.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

I'm still skeptical. Anyone caught with a motor will never race again. Unlike doping where you might come back after a ban, no team will hire you if you get caught with a motor in your bike. You'd be the laughingstock of the cycling world.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

The whole thing seems like an Onion article


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

^+1 

 Coolhand, I bet that sailed right over the heads of everyone here.......lol


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Ferrari has used their KERS system on several hypercars and in Formula 1.
> 
> Kinetic energy recovery system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If a motor is used there will be no need for a recovery system. It's not really feasible for a bicycle anyway. 

A motor just needs to apply double-digit watts for 10-20 minutes of a TT to change the outcome of a stage race.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

phil2161 said:


> What has the world of cycling gotten to when people are possibly putting motors on or in their bikes ? I can understand doping to an extent but this is just sad if true


As much as folks like to get upset about doping, especially LA, it would seem that a good chunk of the human population will cheat when given the opportunity.


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