# Slicks vs Tread



## J9L (Sep 19, 2012)

Hey everyone,

I'm a recreational road biker...not lookin to race but my bike came with slicks. I'm curious, for my next set of tires....would a little tread be good for better safety with debri in the road and cornering? Your thoughts?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

What kind of tires do you have on there now? 

Keep in mind that even though a tire may look slick, the proper siping can help to give you a respectable amount of grip in the corners. If your worried about debris, you can go with something like a Conti Gatorskin.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tread patterns on bicycle tires makes no difference. softer tread compounds will provide more grip, but wear more quickly. harder tread compounds are the opposite. a soft tread tire w/ no 'tread' will have the most grip. tread patterns have voids...areas where no rubber touches the road. no contact, no traction. just like race car slicks. you want the most rubber on the road when considering traction. 
tread (or lack of it) also makes virtually no difference in resistance to debris penetrating the tire. a harder compount will be less likely to let stuff through, but the casing under the tread is where the real puncture protection is.


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## J9L (Sep 19, 2012)

Thanks for your feedback. Let me clarify about the debri...i guess i mean having better grip and not loosing control when going through or over unavoidable debri. I didnt mean puncture resistance. My hybrid which had 32's with slight tread handled that kinda stuff so just wondering if i should get 25's with tread rather than the bontrager race slicks that came with it.


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## mariomal99 (Mar 4, 2012)

^^^^^which tires do you have?


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> tread patterns on bicycle tires makes no difference. softer tread compounds will provide more grip, but wear more quickly. harder tread compounds are the opposite. a soft tread tire w/ no 'tread' will have the most grip. tread patterns have voids...areas where no rubber touches the road. no contact, no traction. just like race car slicks. you want the most rubber on the road when considering traction.
> tread (or lack of it) also makes virtually no difference in resistance to debris penetrating the tire. a harder compount will be less likely to let stuff through, but the casing under the tread is where the real puncture protection is.


the efficacy of a slick vs a tire with sipes and treads is a function of the road surface. race cars and other track animals use slicks (in dry weather only) because they're operating in an ideal and controlled environment. when those conditions change, when they aren't "ideal," the tires change. 

horses for courses, soft slicks are fine in the right circumstances. if you want a tire for the road, and varying conditions, a certain amount of tread is a good idea.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Incorrect understanding*



pone said:


> horses for courses, soft slicks are fine in the right circumstances. if you want a tire for the road, and varying conditions, a certain amount of tread is a good idea.


Not true. Tread on car tires is to channel away water and provide traction on soft surfaces (snow, dirt). If the riding surface is not deformed by the tire tread then there is no increase in traction from tread. And since bicycle tires effectively cannot hydroplane there is no reason for even siping. 

Tire manufacturers put tread on bicycle tires because people expect it. If you have an MTB and never ride it off the road then you should put slicks on it. The tread just slows you down as it deforms.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

pone said:


> the efficacy of a slick vs a tire with sipes and treads is a function of the road surface. race cars and other track animals use slicks (in dry weather only) because they're operating in an ideal and controlled environment. when those conditions change, when they aren't "ideal," the tires change.
> 
> horses for courses, soft slicks are fine in the right circumstances. if you want a tire for the road, and varying conditions, a certain amount of tread is a good idea.


no, you're still wrong. tread patterns on bicycle tires DO NOT DO ANYTHING. kerry and i are correct here, trust me.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

i guess you could call it manufacturers' hype, but on less than ideal road surfaces, some tread offers a benefit over a straight slick. it isn't so much about deflection of the riding surface as deflection within the contact patch.


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## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

Just asking, the 23c stockers on my bike have (or should I say used to have) a 5mm wide and 3mm tall rib around the circumference or the tire, which I was advised was what you'd ride on which was meant to offer less rolling friction than not having it. I wasnt sure how much of that to believe, is there truth to that?


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## J9L (Sep 19, 2012)

Yea I've heard from other posters that tread makes no diff for rain/water. I just notice lots of imperfections on the roads in my area and sometimes cars make it tough to avoid those spots. Im just wondering if any tread stabilizes better. Perhaps it was just the fact that the 32's on my hybrid were larger...not so much the tread that made the diff.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

How much debris are we talking about here?

I put slicks on all my road-going bikes. They have sipes, but that's just because the road tires I like have it. If they stopped having sipes, I wouldn't change my buying habits.

To my mind, I'd need the debris to be dense enough and deep enough, and there'd have to be enough of it, that my tire wasn't contacting the asphalt for at least a foot or so, and the debris could move around and roll under my tire. About the only times I've run into conditions like that on a road paved with asphalt were if it had a lot of blown sand on it or maybe sometimes in the fall when leaf mulch can collect.

If you run into a lot of that on the road, maybe you should go ahead and get something with some tread. Seems pretty unlikely to me, but there you go.

On a road paved with something else - chipseal, gravel, dirt - it's another story. Although frankly I'm not sure how much a tread really helps on chipseal and gravel, I think for those surfaces it's more about volume.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

maybe roads are worse here than in other places. or maybe i've crashed too often and i'm a ***** now.

i've seen the argument about tread being useless on bicycle tires. parts of it make sense and parts don't. i think it's overstated if the object is to maximise grip. anyway, i think it goes something like this;

Tires with Smooth Tread by Jobst Brandt

the problem is, it's just obviously wrong.



> Today, slicks are used in all weather by most street motorcycles. In spite of this, here at the end of the millennium, 100 years after John Dunlop invented the pneumatic tire for his own bicycle, bicyclists have not yet accepted smooth tread.
> 
> Commercial aircraft, and especially motorcycles, demonstrate that a round cross section tire, like the bicycle tire, has an ideal shape to prevent hydroplaning. The contact patch, a pointed canoe shape, displaces water exceptionally well. In spite of this, hydroplaning seems to be a primary concern for riders who are afraid to use smooth tires. After assurances from motorcycle and aircraft examples, slipperiness on wet pavement appears as the next hurdle.
> 
> ...


maybe there's a problem with terminology, because slicks aren't used on street motorcycles at all. they aren't legal, for one thing. they are used on the track, but not "in all weather." so i don't know what we're talking about here. it is true that hydroplaning isn't as much of an issue for a bicycle, but motorcycles _do not show_ that tread patterns do not improve wet traction. that's just false. right? we can all see that. even if you haven't been on a track, on slicks, and had to pit in to change your tires, you could watch a race on tha teevee and see what happens when it starts to rain.

"Tread patterns have no effect on surfaces in which they leave no impression." again... really? again, we're taking a simple premise and over stating it. grip isn't merely or entirely a function of road surface deflection. hard surfaces can be slick or grippy. at the limits of traction, as it's reduced, the ability of the tire material to deflect and tear will determine grip on harder surfaces. thick, soft rubber is helpful here, _up to a point._ too soft, like with a really loose tread, won't hold well. but some serration provides for another form of deflection, or "softness" for a given compound. it allows the rubber to conform to an irregular road surface.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I read hydroplaning as referring to the phenomenon in which an object that's heavier than water skips across the surface without breaking surface tension. Like the racing boats.

I don't think that anyone's arguing whether or not traction is worse on a wet day. That would be obviously wrong.

I think the argument is whether or not hydroplaning is a reasonable phenomenon to worry about on a bicycle. And, absent hydroplaning, whether or not sipes do anything.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

i agree about hydroplaning on a bicycle, just not about whether sipes and tread do anything to improve grip. the explanations i've seen for why they don't, don't make sense.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tread pattern and siping serve one purpose: to move water between a tire and the road surface. if the contact patch/speed/weight are such that hydroplaning are not possible, then pattern/siping DO NOT MATTER. if you want to maintain as much wet traction as possible w/ bicycle tires, lower the pressure and use a softer tread compound. and don't be an idiot and try to corner like you would in the dry. obviously your mechanical grip will be less w/ water lubricating the road surface. in normal, dry conditions, there will not be any difference at all between 2 tires w/ the same compound, one w/ a tread pattern and one without. Continental engineers have said as much...the tire buying public expects to see tread, so they put it on. they also know that if there is a tread, there should be a 'proper' direction to mount it. so they put an directional arrow on the tire too...which, as they have admitted, makes absolutely no difference to the level of traction or the rolling resistance. 
it's really a pretty stupid thing to argue about...buy the tires you like and ride. but don't mistakenly think that one general type (treaded or slick) is better than the other. tire construction and tread compound durometer, as well as inflation pressure, make much more of an impact on how the tire performs.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Some of the better griping race clinchers out there are Pro Race 3's and 4's by Michelin. Absolutely no tread pattern at all. They are also really good tires to use in wet weather. Actually, another brand that is popular for race tires is Schwalbe, who make the Ultremo series. Also completely smooth.

If you are concerned about road conditions or plan to ride on a lot of gravel roads, then what you need to look for is a larger sized tire, say 25mm to 27mm. The tire casing size will make a bigger difference than the tread pattern.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

pone said:


> i agree about hydroplaning on a bicycle, just not about whether sipes and tread do anything to improve grip. the explanations i've seen for why they don't, don't make sense.


IIRC, you'd have to be going somewhat north of 100mph to hyrdoplane on a bicycle.


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## morgan1819 (Nov 22, 2005)

J9L said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I'm a recreational road biker...not lookin to race but my bike came with slicks. I'm curious, for my next set of tires....would a little tread be good for better safety with debri in the road and cornering? Your thoughts?



No 23mm tire is going to keep you upright if you are cornering hard on pavement that has debris present. End of story. It will come down to eyesight and rider ability under those circumstances.

Your slicks are as good as, or better than any other tread pattern. If they have a softer compound, they may in fact corner better than a tire with a harder compound, all other things being equal.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Still wrong*



pone said:


> i guess you could call it manufacturers' hype, but on less than ideal road surfaces, some tread offers a benefit over a straight slick. it isn't so much about deflection of the riding surface as deflection within the contact patch.


You are still wrong. Unless the road surface deforms under the weight of the tire, tread patterns do not increase traction. Cutting up rubber (tread pattern) does not make it grip surfaces better. If you think that cutting grooves in rubber is the same as a more compliant rubber then you really don't understand the mechanism for grip. We are not talking thick tread here like on a car or motorcycle tire. The conformation of a bicycle tire to road surface imperfections is from the combination of casing flexibility and inflation pressure, NOT due to cuts in the tread allowing the rubber to flex differently. Road tire tread is 2 mm or less in thickness. It is NOT analogous to motorcycles or cars where the tread is an order of magnitude thicker and the casing far stiffer.


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## J9L (Sep 19, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I love these forums because everyone is a great resource  i bug my LBS enough as it haha. I'll stick with my slick 25's!


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

Kerry Irons said:


> You are still wrong. Unless the road surface deforms under the weight of the tire, tread patterns do not increase traction. Cutting up rubber (tread pattern) does not make it grip surfaces better. If you think that cutting grooves in rubber is the same as a more compliant rubber then you really don't understand the mechanism for grip. We are not talking thick tread here like on a car or motorcycle tire. The conformation of a bicycle tire to road surface imperfections is from the combination of casing flexibility and inflation pressure, NOT due to cuts in the tread allowing the rubber to flex differently. Road tire tread is 2 mm or less in thickness. It is NOT analogous to motorcycles or cars where the tread is an order of magnitude thicker and the casing far stiffer.


ride what you want, my brother. but let's be clear on this one point; i'm not making spurious arguments about bicycle tires based on "race car slicks" (cxwrench) or motorcycle tires (Brandt, and Sheldon Brown, i guess). these arguments are obviously false. i've attempted to address (and correct) those points, as reasons for riding slicks on bicycles, as directly and plainly as possible. i haven't postulated analogues, i've stated that some tread on a bicycle tire is preferable for compromised surfaces.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

pone said:


> ride what you want, my brother. but let's be clear on this one point; i'm not making spurious arguments about bicycle tires based on "race car slicks" (cxwrench) or motorcycle tires (Brandt, and Sheldon Brown, i guess). these arguments are obviously false. i've attempted to address (and correct) those points, as reasons for riding slicks on bicycles, as directly and plainly as possible. i haven't postulated analogues, i've stated that some tread on a bicycle tire is preferable for compromised surfaces.


you're still wrong. i didn't say that slicks were better because they were like race car tires, i said that putting all the rubber on the road that you can is preferable to not doing that. i also said that there is precious little difference between treaded tires and slicks, so statements that say treaded tires are better are false. the tread on bicycle tires is soooo small as to not make any difference at all. none. tire engineers agree. i'd guess there is really no difference at all between the 2, and i'm not really taking sides. i have some slick tires and some treaded tires, but can't really make a comparison because they are different brands and have different construction/tread compound. my point is that it's incorrect to say that treaded tires on the whole are better than slick tires for ANY condition. the tread is too small as is the contact patch and speed involved. it just doesn't matter. if you're talking sand/gravel on a paved road, the miniscule tread on road tires is not going to do anything to aid traction. the durometer of the tread compound and the inflation of the tire will have much more effect on traction.


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

The only reason for tread pattern on road tires is for aerodynamics. Now the amount this actually works is prob so small but it allows companies to market aero tires. Some examples are Zipp tires, Mavics new tires, Specialized new clinchers for TT.


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## dookie (Oct 1, 2007)

cxwrench said:


> ...and the inflation of the tire will have much more effect on traction.


:devil:

yes, let's discuss this!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dookie said:


> :devil:
> 
> yes, let's discuss this!


go for it...


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## crbeals (Oct 3, 2012)

Hate to thread-jack but I cannot start one yet. I have a Cannondale RW400 with Mach1 CFX rims and 700 x32c Continental CityRide tires. I live in Chicago and like the setup in the city however I'd like to ride some trails outside of Chicago that are not paved. How bad of a ride would I have on crushed stone? Is there a tire change that I could make? 
Thank you


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## aaronbarker (Aug 31, 2005)

I've used various Michelin, Vittoria, Ritchey, Schwalbe, Vredestien, Gran Fondo and am currently on Veloflex clinchers. Of all those tires, the slick 19-20mm Michelin Kyrilion (something like that) were the best in the rain. I had lots of confidence cornering with those. There may be other differences in the tires that contributed, but against all the other (treaded) tires, those slicks were the best when wet. My experience in wet road adhesion is that the actual road surface is more important. I make a conscious effort to corner on the more poreous-appearing sections of the road when possible and practical.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

crbeals said:


> Hate to thread-jack but I cannot start one yet. I have a Cannondale RW400 with Mach1 CFX rims and 700 x32c Continental CityRide tires. I live in Chicago and like the setup in the city however I'd like to ride some trails outside of Chicago that are not paved. How bad of a ride would I have on crushed stone? Is there a tire change that I could make?
> Thank you


Depends. If you're not doing a lot of climbing and descending and you use reasonable (ie, not maxed out) tire pressure, just go ride.

For me, sustained climbing and descending is when I start to want a higher-volume tire. Presence or absence of a tread makes a surprisingly small difference in dry conditions, but definitely helps with mud.

I don't know what a RW400 is. But whatever it is, for riding soft-surfaced roads on something that's not a mountain bike, just cramming the fattest tire that will fit into it is usually the way to go.


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## crbeals (Oct 3, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Depends. If you're not doing a lot of climbing and descending and you use reasonable (ie, not maxed out) tire pressure, just go ride.
> 
> For me, sustained climbing and descending is when I start to want a higher-volume tire. Presence or absence of a tread makes a surprisingly small difference in dry conditions, but definitely helps with mud.
> 
> I don't know what a RW400 is. But whatever it is, for riding soft-surfaced roads on something that's not a mountain bike, just cramming the fattest tire that will fit into it is usually the way to go.


Pretty flat riding. RW400 = Road Warrior, it's a 2006/07 model. Not worried about tread. I'm looking at getting a fatter tire on it, the Conti' CityRoad tire a is pretty thin tire.
Thanks for the reply.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Don't know if anybody posted this but FWIW, here's what the Michelin Man says about tread:

"""The oval shape of a bicycle road tire contact patch permits effective water evacuation to help keep the tire from hydroplaning. The footprint of a 23mm tire (approx. 7 sq. cm) is so small that the bike would need to be traveling at about 120MPH in order to hydroplane.

Nevertheless, *some road tire models are designed with specific tread structures – primarily for cosmetics or to comfort the consumer*. Sometimes tread features can help provide a harder rubber compound a better mechanical link with the road surface, for better grip."""

Michelin Bicycle USA - A better way forward®


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## MercRidnMike (Dec 19, 2006)

Tread on a mountain bike tire running low pressures where the ground can be penetrated by the tread, the tread can wrap slightly around an obstacle or edges can get between the tread blocks...sure, more traction to be found. Tread on a road bike tire....meh. It's more marketing than anything else on road tires.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

looigi said:


> Sometimes tread features can help provide a harder rubber compound a better mechanical link with the road surface, for better grip.


This part is worth highlighting too, if only because someone is sure to misread it. With a suitably rough surface and a suitably shaped tread, there can be some merit to this idea. BUT - that's not within the range of a road bike on a road. On a gravel path, maybe, or with balloon tires on chipseal, perhaps.


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