# The Sky boys are on another level



## gizzard

There is little doubt now that Sky are the best prepared team a this year's Tour (and I use the word 'prepared' in its true sense). I, for one, am not in the least surprised, given their consistency this season. Porte, Rogers, Froome and Wiggins are the epitome of consistency. I say good luck to them - they are very focused, they have prepared well, and for the first time in ages, it appears this Tour is being bossed by those who have worked the hardest. :thumbsup:


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## coop

It's sad that you might actually believe what you are saying!


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## roddjbrown

coop said:


> It's sad that you might actually believe what you are saying!


Is it? I think It's sadder that there's such a high number of posters determined to look to doping


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## den bakker

I hear Wiggins is even doing something called intervals to increase power. Maybe the rest of the cycling world will catch up soon. 
Btw how aero are side burns? after all, they are well prepared and go for every (legal) advantage, so side burns must be aero.


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## DZfan14

roddjbrown said:


> Is it? I think It's sadder that there's such a high number of posters determined to look to doping


Yes because there have only been a few isolated cases of doping in this sport.


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## Mike T.

gizzard said:


> There is little doubt now that Sky are the best prepared team a this year's Tour (and I use the word 'prepared' in its true sense). I, for one, am not in the least surprised, given their consistency this season. Porte, Rogers, Froome and Wiggins are the epitome of consistency. I say good luck to them - they are very focused, they have prepared well, and for the first time in ages, it appears this Tour is being bossed by those who have worked the hardest. :thumbsup:


And it all started way back with Peter Keen and Chris Boardman.

BBC SPORT | Olympics | Cycling | How GB cycling went from tragic to magic


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## Len J

Yea.....

even their domestiques are able to ride some of the best pure climbers off their wheels in the mountains.

I wonder how the recovered enough to be able to train that much harder than the rest of their teams.

Len


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## DZfan14

Len J said:


> Yea.....
> 
> even their domestiques are able to ride some of the best pure climbers off their wheels in the mountains.
> 
> I wonder how the recovered enough to be able to train that much harder than the rest of their teams.
> 
> Len


I hear that they read passages from Edgar Allen Poe's finest works to eachother while being massaged with beetroot oil each night. Also, they listen to the works of Howard Gregson Hoffman which aids in recovery and helps them get great sleep in the closet sized french hotel rooms.


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## roddjbrown

DZfan14 said:


> Yes because there have only been a few isolated cases of doping in this sport.


Whilst I get the disillusionment of a DZ fan should we automatically presume that all good performances are suspicious? It's a sad day when the reason to point the accusatory finger at a sportsman is exceptional performance.


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## coop

roddjbrown said:


> Is it? I think It's sadder that there's such a high number of posters determined to look to doping


I didn't say anything about doping. The OP is basically saying that out of 22 teams at the TDF, only 1 took it serious enough to properly train for it, and therefore is dominating because of this training. It's an insult to the other 189 riders and their teams. Statements like his are nothing more than blind fanboy jibberish!


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## Len J

DZfan14 said:


> I hear that they read passages from Edgar Allen Poe's finest works to eachother while being massaged with beetroot oil each night. Also, they listen to the works of Howard Gregson Hoffman which aids in recovery and helps them get great sleep in the closet sized french hotel rooms.


 
POTD.

I love it.


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## Mike T.

roddjbrown said:


> Whilst I get the disillusionment of a DZ fan should we automatically presume that all good performances are suspicious? It's a sad day when the reason to point the accusatory finger at a sportsman is exceptional performance.


I'm wating for Wiggo & Froomey to be accused of having those electric motors in their seat tubes. What else could it be?


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## DZfan14

roddjbrown said:


> Whilst I get the disillusionment of a DZ fan should we automatically presume that all good performances are suspicious? It's a sad day when the reason to point the accusatory finger at a sportsman is exceptional performance.


Why should I be disillusioned? That implies that I was under the spell of an illusion to begin with. You think that the first time I thought DZ may have been on the hot sauce was four days ago? LOL Dude.... if you favorite rider rode for Postal and you still think that he was riding with taking hot sauce during that period, then you either haven't been paying attention, or you are Michael Creed fan (I'm guessing he's a rare exception).

Back on topic. We have seen this movie before.


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## foto

There is a special forum for you clowns to go have this discussion. Its all the way at the bottom, below the "test forum"

See ya.


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## gizzard

coop said:


> I didn't say anything about doping. The OP is basically saying that out of 22 teams at the TDF, only 1 took it serious enough to properly train for it, and therefore is dominating because of this training. It's an insult to the other 189 riders and their teams. Statements like his are nothing more than blind fanboy jibberish!


Easy son. I'm saying the Sky boys are better prepared than any other team. I have raced as a professional and as an amateur in the past and I like to think that I now a little bit about cycling - clearly not as much as you though. From the reports I have read and what I have heard, yes, I genuinely believe the Sky Boys have prepared far better than other teams this year. It is no coincidence that they have what appears to be the two strongest all rounders in this year's race, plus a gaggle of support riders stronger than any other team. And yes, I am a fan of hard work, commitment to excellence, and achieving results based natural physiological attributes.


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## Salsa_Lover

I don't know about you, but me, I already bought my Sky kit, including socks and gloves 

HTH


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## den bakker

gizzard said:


> Easy son. I'm saying the Sky boys are better prepared than any other team. I have raced as a professional and as an amateur in the past and I like to think that I now a little bit about cycling - clearly not as much as you though. From the reports I have read and what I have heard, yes, I genuinely believe the Sky Boys have prepared far better than other teams this year. It is no coincidence that they have what appears to be the two strongest all rounders in this year's race, plus a gaggle of support riders stronger than any other team. And yes, I am a fan of hard work, commitment to excellence, and achieving results based natural physiological attributes.


as opposed to all the other non-commited, slacking pros that were never really suited for it anyway.


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## sdeeer

DZfan14 said:


> I hear that they read passages from Edgar Allen Poe's finest works to eachother while being massaged with beetroot oil each night. Also, they listen to the works of Howard Gregson Hoffman which aids in recovery and helps them get great sleep in the closet sized french hotel rooms.


While they may use HGH, it is really not that effective at increasing recovery. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1724606/pdf/v037p00100.pdf

That unless combined with other anabolics. Just FYI.


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## coop

gizzard said:


> Easy son. I'm saying the Sky boys are better prepared than any other team. I have raced as a professional and as an amateur in the past and I like to think that I now a little bit about cycling - clearly not as much as you though. From the reports I have read and what I have heard, yes, I genuinely believe the Sky Boys have prepared far better than other teams this year. It is no coincidence that they have what appears to be the two strongest all rounders in this year's race, plus a gaggle of support riders stronger than any other team. And yes, I am a fan of hard work, commitment to excellence, and achieving results based natural physiological attributes.


So you're a fanboy who use to race, what's your point? I still say your original post reeks of naive bias. Once again, I'm pretty sure the other 21 teams might have trained for this race. Since you're such an accomplished racer, you'd surely know of all the other variables that have affected the tour thus far. I'm sure the GC riders that were either knocked out of the race or lost time in the first week certainly crashed due to their lack of hard work, commitment to excellence, and lack of natural physiological attributes.


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## big wheel4300

I think these guys are doping!


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## MYMOJO34

Sky does look dominant as a team, but they still cant seem to shake Evans even without his team.

Personally, I'm having more fun watching Jens Voight than worrying about who's gonna win it all.


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## gusmahler

MYMOJO34 said:


> Sky does look dominant as a team, but they still cant seem to shake Evans even without his team.


Huh? Wiggins is 1'53" ahead of Evans and is a faster TT than him.


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## MYMOJO34

gusmahler said:


> Huh? Wiggins is 1'53" ahead of Evans and is a faster TT than him.


Oh, I haven't seen today's stage yet. Last I saw there was only about an 10 second gap between them.

But twice I've seen Evans cross the line ahead of Wiggins when Evans didnt have his team leading him in.


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## vismitananda

Too bad Cadel doesn't have the support like Wiggo has.


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## SFTifoso

Bottom line is the UCI needs to hire top level scientist/doctors, and pay them VERY handsomely, to not only test the riders, but also try to stay a step ahead of "tricks" to fool the tests. I have no doubt the teams' doctors get paid a lot more than the UCI guys. 

As of right now, Sky's performances leaves a lot of doubt; the times in the ITT (and not just one guy), and that "miraculous" sprint to the finish by Froome after he had been pacing Wiggins up the mountain.

Also, Wiggins's supposedly too tired to even stand after the TT, but a second later he has enough strength to shout at reporters and push them out of the way. At least keep the act together dude.


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## Salsa_Lover

I don't know if you guys watched closely the stage but for a long stretch of the climb, Wiggo was pacing froomey.

Froom only took the last pacing shift, I am pretty sure his victory was planned like this


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## gusmahler

MYMOJO34 said:


> Oh, I haven't seen today's stage yet. Last I saw there was only about an 10 second gap between them.
> 
> But twice I've seen Evans cross the line ahead of Wiggins when Evans didnt have his team leading him in.


Wiggins doesn't care about finishing ahead of Evans as long as they get the same time.


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## tobes88

It is strange that Rogers + Porte + Froome + Wiggins are _all simultaneously _on their absolute best form of their careers.

We cannot impute anything on this, but we can notice that it *is* strange.

Invariably, in any given team, some riders will be on form and some off form.

When everyone is on career best form......at the same time.....

We have the right to wonder.


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## trailrunner68

tobes88 said:


> It is strange that Rogers + Porte + Froome + Wiggins are _all simultaneously _on their absolute best form of their careers.
> 
> We cannot impute anything on this, but we can notice that it *is* strange.
> 
> Invariably, in any given team, some riders will be on form and some off form.
> 
> When everyone is on career best form......at the same time.....
> 
> We have the right to wonder.


This.

Rogers is the key. He was a client of Armstrong's dope doctor, Dr. Ferrari. He was a member of T-Mobile's blood doping program. Yet he claims that he is putting out the best power numbers of his career. There is only one way that makes sense, and it is not riding clean that is for sure.

Ever wonder why cyclists make a big deal about all the altitude training they are doing, usually on Tenerife? Check this out. It's from Dr. Ferrari's website.

_In the spring of 2010, some riders of a Pro-Tour team that were training at altitude (on Teide, Tenerife) were subjected to the normal ABP samples. One they received the results of the analysis, considering them unreliable (the values were too high), all it took was a phone call from the team doctor to his friend Dr. Zorzoli, in charge of UCI's doping department, in order to get the results of those tests cleared from the profiles, as deemed inconvenient for the Team and for the sake of the Biological Passport system, which tends not to consider the effects of altitude.
This behavior reminds me of the rather common habit of certain Researchers to hide or simply ignore "inconvenient data", i.e. furthest from the "truth" that they want to prove._

Must be nice to have all your biopassport tests during a training camp thrown out. Pretty much gives you leeway to dope.


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## foto

-------------------------------


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## vismitananda

SFTifoso said:


> Bottom line is the UCI needs to hire top level scientist/doctors, and pay them VERY handsomely, to not only test the riders, but also try to stay a step ahead of "tricks" to fool the tests. I have no doubt the teams' doctors get paid a lot more than the UCI guys.
> 
> As of right now, Sky's performances leaves a lot of doubt; the times in the ITT (and not just one guy), and that "miraculous" sprint to the finish by Froome after he had been pacing Wiggins up the mountain.
> 
> Also, Wiggins's supposedly too tired to even stand after the TT, but a second later he has enough strength to shout at reporters and push them out of the way. At least keep the act together dude.


This is why cycling is tainted w/ doping allegations every season. Because people keep on questioning a rider after he "unusually" deliver a very good stage win. It doesn't stop there, the team also puts into danger, after most of the guys were able to stand a very long and hard stage.


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## vismitananda

How many times per season does an average rider gets a doping test from UCI?


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## Cableguy

Sounds strange to say, but if no positive tests surface from Sky during or after the Tour I'll kind of be dissapointed... because more than likely either the UCI isn't testing correctly or they're making deals and sweeping things under the rug to make the sport look better on paper. I've lost some respect towards Cavendish too, seeing as he's on the same team and where there's smoke there's fire. 

The TT results are suspicious, but when I then saw shortly after that four Sky riders drop literally everyone in the Tour except like 5 other main GC rivals up that long climb to me that confirmed it. Wiggins' blog about doping seems sincere, but as I've learned from Landis lying out your a$$ is par for the course.


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## trailrunner68

Cableguy said:


> Sounds strange to say, but if no positive tests surface from Sky during or after the Tour I'll kind of be dissapointed... because more than likely either the UCI isn't testing correctly or they're making deals and sweeping things under the rug to make the sport look better on paper. I've lost some respect towards Cavendish too, seeing as he's on the same team and where there's smoke there's fire.
> 
> The TT results are suspicious, but when I then saw shortly after that four Sky riders drop literally everyone in the Tour except like 5 other main GC rivals up that long climb to me that confirmed it. Wiggins' blog about doping seems sincere, but as I've learned from Landis lying out your a$$ is par for the course.


Dope tests are for the most part worthless. They catch riders who make mistakes. Victor Conte once referred to drug tests as intelligence tests. You only get caught if you are stupid.

Most of the good stuff that is used is undetectable. There is no test for transfusing your own blood. Microdosed EPO cannot be detected.


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## Local Hero

trailrunner, now that you've decided that certain riders are guilty of *undetectable* doping, what would convince you that they are clean?


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## EuroSVT

Seeing Porte not even breathing hard going up Col du Tourmalet, while right in front of him Basso is burying himself? I'm not going to point & say that "yeah this is the new Postal" but something is worth keeping a close eye on these guys. If one very well funded team can beat the system for the better part of a decade, who is to say that someone else can't follow the same program?

*I'm not calling Sky doped ftr


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## trailrunner68

Local Hero said:


> trailrunner, now that you've decided that certain riders are guilty of *undetectable* doping, what would convince you that they are clean?


Local Hero, now that you've decided that no riders are guilty of doping, what would convince you that some are doping?


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## SicBith

trailrunner68 said:


> Local Hero, now that you've decided that no riders are guilty of doping, what would convince you that some are doping?


answering a question with a question..... hmmm.....


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## aclinjury

Sky doped to the gills


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## trailrunner68

SicBith said:


> answering a question with a question..... hmmm.....


answering a gross misrepresentation in kind


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## Local Hero

aclinjury said:


> Sky doped to the gills


Including le Cavendish?


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## Local Hero

trailrunner68 said:


> Local Hero, now that you've decided that no riders are guilty of doping, what would convince you that some are doping?


A positive test is somewhat convincing. But before we get into the many different types of evidence which would lead me to think that a rider is doping, I will say that a good performance or dominating ride is not necessarily indicative of doping. 

Many people here see a strong rider or strong team as evidence of drug use. Maybe the sport is tainted. Maybe they are jaded. Who knows? But I don't see it that way. 

Next, *you completely avoided my question and asked me a loaded question.* It's a loaded question because I do not believe that "no riders are guilty of doping." Nowhere have I ever said that, nowhere have I argued it. In fact, I've stated the opposite: many riders are guilty of doping. 

Despite the fact that you avoided my question and instead asked me a loaded question, I've done you the courtesy of answering your question. With that out of the way, I hope you can answer my question, which I will repeat for you now: 

*Now that you've decided that certain riders are guilty of *undetectable* doping, what would convince you that they are clean?*


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## Local Hero

trailrunner68 said:


> answering a gross misrepresentation in kind


Oh, I see now. You were trolling. 

Hilarious.


Can you answer my question anyway? If you think drug tests are for the most part worthless, and you have simply decided that a rider is guilty of doping, what would it take to convince you that the rider is clean?


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## trailrunner68

Local Hero said:


> Oh, I see now. You were trolling.


Hardly. You cannot have a discussion with some who deliberately misrepresents your position and expects you do defend it. I won't play that game.


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## Local Hero

Sincerely, 

Can you answer my question? If you think drug tests are for the most part worthless, and you have simply decided that a rider is guilty of doping, what would it take to convince you that the rider is clean?


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## SFTifoso

Instead of banning all these "doping" doctors, the UCI should hire them, and "surprise" the peloton with "new" testing procedures. I would love to be in the Sky team meeting if/when this happens.


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## Local Hero

Can we back up a second? What evidence do we have that Sky is doping? 

(Is it anything besides their good performance, and the logical(?) connection between a good performance and doping?)


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## SFTifoso

No evidence, but trusting any team in this sport is like trusting the kid who called wolf one too many times. Team Sky can very well be legit, and I would like to believe they are, but fool me once shame on you... etc.

The UCI needs to do a better a job at convincing the fans that the sport is clean, if in fact it is clean. Don't ask me how, they made this mess, they need to figure out a way out. Until they do, there will always... ALWAYS be doubt around performances like Team Sky is putting.


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## roddjbrown

I think localhero makes a very good point that we find ourselves in a situation where people jump on any good performance as evidence of doping. Sometimes it's because the team they like isn't doing well, sometimes it's because of the history. I personally don't think we've seen anything that's actually that spectacular in this tour - Sky have the biggest budget in the pro peloton and seem to have bought up the right domestiques. The power outputs are down, we know that and when people complain that some riders are riding known climbers off their wheel there's always going to be the arguement that it's feasible that there's a fair few renowned climbers now having to ride clean. 

Problem is, despite being a Brit and therefore a Sky fan I find myself in the position where I think (this is my opinion, not evidence, I can't quote links or anything before someone jumps on me for it) that they're probably not clean. 

I don't know whether that says more about me or cycling in general.


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## aclinjury

Here's how I look at it.

The Sky riders are escorting their Yellow Jersey Man to Paris like a runaway freight training. Everyone sees the train coming but can't do anything about. When the Sky domestiques are riding almost at the same level as all the other GC riders of the other teams, that is statistically not normal. The only reason what team Sky isn't pulling away more is because they're sandbagging a bit. I don't see those boys sweat much when the elites like Basso and Evans are struggling to keep up.

I'm sorry but Sky performance represents a huge statistical aberration from a country where not many of its athletes has done much in "endurance sports". And all of the sudden, the whole team is filled with dominating endurance performances. How is this physiologically possible when at this level the human body pretty much is maximized? The only answer left is "dope", and only through doping that their physiology could have improved this much in such a short period of time? Without resorting to dope, how is this performance possible in a natural order?

If this was "Team Kenya", then I can maybe perhaps reason where they got their endurance from.

and like the US Postal train, the truth will eventually come out, but unfortunately we won't know this until years laters. Today, is there ANYONE who still doubts the US Postal train was not doped to the gills?

But to be fair, I'll bet many other guys dope too, just that Sky (like US Postal) is taking doping to another level at the moment. I have no proof of course, just like many who questioned US Postal back then also had no proof. But today we all know what went on at US Postal, so of course it is almost obligatory to look at Sky in the same light.


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## Dwayne Barry

SFTifoso said:


> Bottom line is the UCI needs to hire top level scientist/doctors, and pay them VERY handsomely, to not only test the riders, but also try to stay a step ahead of "tricks" to fool the tests.


It is not in the UCI's interest to catch dopers, never has been, that's fundamentally why WADA was created.


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## Dwayne Barry

This display is starting to approach the immodest showing of Basso that year in the Giro when he soft-pedaled to an easy win.


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## terzo rene

It's interesting to me that even the incredible La Vie Claire team of the 80's couldn't control the race like teams from Indurain to present. Coincidentally, they didn't have effective dope back then. The watered down courses in recent Tours certainly help control things, but they should also make dominance even more difficult.

Based on power outputs they are clearly doping less, but this isn't what clean racing looks like. When climbers can start dropping the leaders for 4 or 5 minutes on a mountain stage again, like in the 70's or 80's, I'll start believing things are cleaned up. The juiced to the gills racing was great, the pre-EPO era was great, the current best that money can buy doping era is like watching paint dry.


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## roddjbrown

aclinjury said:


> Here's how I look at it.
> 
> The Sky riders are escorting their Yellow Jersey Man to Paris like a runaway freight training. Everyone sees the train coming but can't do anything about. When the Sky domestiques are riding almost at the same level as all the other GC riders of the other teams, that is statistically not normal. The only reason what team Sky isn't pulling away more is because they're sandbagging a bit. I don't see those boys sweat much when the elites like Basso and Evans are struggling to keep up.
> 
> I'm sorry but Sky performance represents a huge statistical aberration from a country where not many of its athletes has done much in "endurance sports". And all of the sudden, the whole team is filled with dominating endurance performances. How is this physiologically possible when at this level the human body pretty much is maximized? The only answer left is "dope", and only through doping that their physiology could have improved this much in such a short period of time? Without resorting to dope, how is this performance possible in a natural order?
> 
> If this was "Team Kenya", then I can maybe perhaps reason where they got their endurance from.
> 
> and like the US Postal train, the truth will eventually come out, but unfortunately we won't know this until years laters. Today, is there ANYONE who still doubts the US Postal train was not doped to the gills?
> 
> But to be fair, I'll bet many other guys dope too, just that Sky (like US Postal) is taking doping to another level at the moment. I have no proof of course, just like many who questioned US Postal back then also had no proof. But today we all know what went on at US Postal, so of course it is almost obligatory to look at Sky in the same light.



I believe Sky are doping but this is rubbish.

A country where not many of its athletes have done much in endurance sports? Can you tell me which country you're talking about please? Norway? Belarus? Germany? Australia? Kenya? Austria? Or GB? All of those nationalities are on the Sky team. 

Please, do me a favour and reply with the data that supports the statistical aberration of whichever country you're referring to.

Oh and if it is GB maybe at least use Wikipedia or common sense or something. Mo Farah? Paula Radcliffe? The Brownlees? Nicole Cooke? Steve Redgrave? 

If you're going to claim statistics to support your view please back it up with data not trash


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## aclinjury

roddjbrown said:


> I believe Sky are doping but this is rubbish.
> 
> A country where not many of its athletes have done much in endurance sports? Can you tell me which country you're talking about please? Norway? Belarus? Germany? Australia? Kenya? Austria? Or GB? All of those nationalities are on the Sky team.
> 
> Please, do me a favour and reply with the data that supports the statistical aberration of whichever country you're referring to.
> 
> Oh and if it is GB maybe at least use Wikipedia or common sense or something. Mo Farah? Paula Radcliffe? The Brownlees? Nicole Cooke? Steve Redgrave?
> 
> If you're going to claim statistics to support your view please back it up with data not trash


the UK doesn't have an established tradiiton of excelling in endurance sport, at least not on the same level at the Team Sky level. Now all of sudden Sky is developing endurance monster. On the other hand, Kenya is a country with a tradition in endurance event. One only needs to look at the endurance events in both the summer and winter Olympics. The UK is no where to be found, yet in cycling, Sky is dominating, and they come to dominate in a very short period of time, out of nowhere (similar to how the US Postal rose under Lance). So yes it is a statistical aberration in my eyes.

Bottomline is these guys are doping, they are dopers. I may not have presented micro statistical evidence, but doesn't matter much because with the macro view of things, everyone is starting to compare Sky to US Postal.


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## roddjbrown

aclinjury said:


> the UK doesn't have an established tradiiton of excelling in endurance sport, at least not on the same level at the Team Sky level. Now all of sudden Sky is developing endurance monster. On the other hand, Kenya is a country with a tradition in endurance event. One only needs to look at the endurance events in both the summer and winter Olympics. The UK is no where to be found, yet in cycling, Sky is dominating, and they come to dominate in a very short period of time, out of nowhere (similar to how the US Postal rose under Lance). So yes it is a statistical aberration in my eyes.


You do know that there are only two actual GB riders in the team right? And one of those is Cav?

Did you read what I said about endurance athletes? Since you apparently think the Olympics is a judge of a country's endurance ability check those names I sent you. I reckon at least 3 will be golds this summer.


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## aclinjury

roddjbrown said:


> You do know that there are only two actual GB riders in the team right? And one of those is Cav?
> 
> Did you read what I said about endurance athletes? Since you apparently think the Olympics is a judge of a country's endurance ability check those names I sent you. I reckon at least 3 will be golds this summer.


see above post


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## roddjbrown

aclinjury said:


> see above post


Ha! Buddy, I'm with you on Sky doping. I just think your post was ill informed, disrespectful to British endurance athletes and chose to use objective language to describe subjectivism.

Oh and FYI Froome is Kenyan. So under your system its legitimate that Sky are winning and they're clean!

That bang was the shot through your foot


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## Local Hero

terzo rene said:


> Based on power outputs they are clearly doping less, but this isn't what clean racing looks like.


I really don't know what we would expect to see differently. 



> When climbers can start dropping the leaders for 4 or 5 minutes on a mountain stage...


Hasn't that happened? Tommy V took a few stages this year. (But he's doping too, right?) 

It's not like one rider is taking the TTs, sprints, and hilltop finishes. We still see specialists.


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## aclinjury

roddjbrown said:


> Ha! Buddy, I'm with you on Sky doping. I just think your post was ill informed, disrespectful to British endurance athletes and chose to use objective language to describe subjectivism.
> 
> Oh and FYI Froome is Kenyan. So under your system its legitimate that Sky are winning and they're clean!
> 
> That bang was the shot through your foot


OK sorry if I sound disrespectful. But when I see anything "endurance" event worth winning, eg, big marathon or the Olympics, I usually the guys from East Africa, usuaslly the same faces up there, and although these guys don't always win, they're always up there, for decades now. So this tells me that these guys have a tradition in endurance, their country (or villages) have a tradition of developing long distance athletes. And since these countries are poor, most of their athletes do have access to top level training and nutritional science like like those of the West, it is even more amazing that they have such a high percentage of endurance athletes on the world stage competing for the coveted races. 

The same can also be said of a country such as Jamaica in track & field sprinting. Small little island country with a disproportional large number of athletes in Olympic and World track sprinting. So there is a tradition of sprinting taking place here that enable such a small country to produce such a large number of world stage sprinters.

So it should be of no surprise that an East African country suddenly produces 2-3 world class long distance runners. Also should be of no surprise that Jamaica produces 2-3 world class sprinters. But when Sky produces a whole team of endurance athletes that seems to put the rest of the field to shame, it does not really reflect the level endurace performance from the UK in other endurance disciplines. And the thing is the performance comes almost overnight. Athletes at this level do not suddenly reach another level performance overnight even with a rich tradition in producing such athletes.

Now hypothetically if say Kenya suddenly produces a bunch of top level short track sprinting, then I would call them out the same manner. But if the UK sprinters stack the field, then I expect that because the UK has a good tradition in track sprinting. I'm not sure why you're emotion about this. I'm not the only one making this sort of argument. It's done all the time in many different sporting disciplines, even as diverse as car and motorcycle racing. But I understand, you're a Brit, and me saying it does make it sound like I'm under estimating the Brits, so I apologize.


----------



## aclinjury

Local Hero said:


> I really don't know what we would expect to see differently.
> 
> Hasn't that happened? Tommy V took a few stages this year. (But he's doping too, right?)
> 
> It's not like one rider is taking the TTs, sprints, and hilltop finishes. We still see specialists.


Personally I think Sky is sandbagging the field. I have no evidence, except to say that whenever Cadel or Basso attempts to breakaway a little bit (and you see them suffering on their faces), the Sky boys just calmly reel them in without much of a sweat. Looks like sandbagging to me.


----------



## Local Hero

aclinjury said:


> Personally I think Sky is sandbagging the field. I have no evidence, except to say that whenever Cadel or Basso attempts to breakaway a little bit (and you see them suffering on their faces), the Sky boys just calmly reel them in without much of a sweat. Looks like sandbagging to me.


Froome could have escaped. Wiggo was about to crack. 

That said, we've seen riders reeled in by tams before. HTC made a career out of reeling in the break.


----------



## aclinjury

Local Hero said:


> Froome could have escaped. Wiggo was about to crack.
> 
> That said, we've seen riders reeled in by tams before. HTC made a career out of reeling in the break.


You are right. Froome definitely does looks to be the stronger of the 2 at this point and has been several stages back. I'm pretty sure the reason Froome hasn't attacked much at this point is because he's holding back for Wiggins. It will be interesting to see if the 2 can co-exist together for long because at some point Froome must be thinking he wants to be the Yellow jersey man.


----------



## 88 rex

aclinjury said:


> OK sorry if I sound disrespectful. But when I see anything "endurance" event worth winning, eg, big marathon or the Olympics, I usually the guys from East Africa, usuaslly the same faces up there, and although these guys don't always win, they're always up there, for decades now. So this tells me that these guys have a tradition in endurance, their country (or villages) have a tradition of developing long distance athletes. And since these countries are poor, most of their athletes do have access to top level training and nutritional science like like those of the West, it is even more amazing that they have such a high percentage of endurance athletes on the world stage competing for the coveted races.
> 
> The same can also be said of a country such as Jamaica in track & field sprinting. Small little island country with a disproportional large number of athletes in Olympic and World track sprinting. So there is a tradition of sprinting taking place here that enable such a small country to produce such a large number of world stage sprinters.
> 
> So it should be of no surprise that an East African country suddenly produces 2-3 world class long distance runners. Also should be of no surprise that Jamaica produces 2-3 world class sprinters. But when Sky produces a whole team of endurance athletes that seems to put the rest of the field to shame, it does not really reflect the level endurace performance from the UK in other endurance disciplines. And the thing is the performance comes almost overnight. Athletes at this level do not suddenly reach another level performance overnight even with a rich tradition in producing such athletes.
> 
> Now hypothetically if say Kenya suddenly produces a bunch of top level short track sprinting, then I would call them out the same manner. But if the UK sprinters stack the field, then I expect that because the UK has a good tradition in track sprinting. I'm not sure why you're emotion about this. I'm not the only one making this sort of argument. It's done all the time in many different sporting disciplines, even as diverse as car and motorcycle racing. But I understand, you're a Brit, and me saying it does make it sound like I'm under estimating the Brits, so I apologize.


Well, Kenya just produced a podium finisher at the TDF.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

What I find the most unusual is how the front of the field is not producing huge watts or VAM compared to years past but the field is rapidly shredded.


----------



## The Tedinator

Doctor Falsetti said:


> What I find the most unusual is how the front of the field is not producing huge watts or VAM compared to years past but the field is rapidly shredded.


I've wondered that myself. I was thinking last night that I only started getting extensive racing coverage in the Armstrong years. It occurred to me that I might not even know what a cleaned up peleton looks like. I mean, it might go all the way back to Lemond to know what a semi-level field looked like. And here in the states there was no day to day coverage at that time.


----------



## Wookiebiker

Doctor Falsetti said:


> What I find the most unusual is how the front of the field is not producing huge watts or VAM compared to years past but the field is rapidly shredded.


Not sure about them "Not" putting out huge watts.

Reading Basso talk about the tour this year and stating there isn't anybody can do about it...he talks of being behind the "Sky Train" and pulling 420 watts for extended periods of time and basically getting dropped.

So if the domestiques are pulling 420+ watts (they are putting more out due to being up front and not in the draft) during 3 week races up climbs for extended periods of time...they are still putting out "Huge" watts. :idea:


----------



## foofighter

aclinjury said:


> Personally I think Sky is sandbagging the field. I have no evidence, except to say that whenever Cadel or Basso attempts to breakaway a little bit (and you see them suffering on their faces), the Sky boys just calmly reel them in without much of a sweat. Looks like sandbagging to me.





Wookiebiker said:


> Not sure about them "Not" putting out huge watts.
> 
> Reading Basso talk about the tour this year and stating there isn't anybody can do about it...he talks of being behind the "Sky Train" and pulling 420 watts for extended periods of time and basically getting dropped.
> 
> So if the domestiques are pulling 420+ watts (they are putting more out due to being up front and not in the draft) during 3 week races up climbs for extended periods of time...they are still putting out "Huge" watts. :idea:


I get the impression from interviews w/ the other contenders that they smell something is up and they just make references to how they're riding at their max and still cant keep up w/ the Sky train...i do agree this is pretty suspicious but unless they fail doping controls it's just speculations.


----------



## roddjbrown

aclinjury said:


> OK sorry if I sound disrespectful. But when I see anything "endurance" event worth winning, eg, big marathon or the Olympics, I usually the guys from East Africa, usuaslly the same faces up there, and although these guys don't always win, they're always up there, for decades now. So this tells me that these guys have a tradition in endurance, their country (or villages) have a tradition of developing long distance athletes. And since these countries are poor, most of their athletes do have access to top level training and nutritional science like like those of the West, it is even more amazing that they have such a high percentage of endurance athletes on the world stage competing for the coveted races.
> 
> The same can also be said of a country such as Jamaica in track & field sprinting. Small little island country with a disproportional large number of athletes in Olympic and World track sprinting. So there is a tradition of sprinting taking place here that enable such a small country to produce such a large number of world stage sprinters.
> 
> So it should be of no surprise that an East African country suddenly produces 2-3 world class long distance runners. Also should be of no surprise that Jamaica produces 2-3 world class sprinters. But when Sky produces a whole team of endurance athletes that seems to put the rest of the field to shame, it does not really reflect the level endurace performance from the UK in other endurance disciplines. And the thing is the performance comes almost overnight. Athletes at this level do not suddenly reach another level performance overnight even with a rich tradition in producing such athletes.
> 
> Now hypothetically if say Kenya suddenly produces a bunch of top level short track sprinting, then I would call them out the same manner. But if the UK sprinters stack the field, then I expect that because the UK has a good tradition in track sprinting. I'm not sure why you're emotion about this. I'm not the only one making this sort of argument. It's done all the time in many different sporting disciplines, even as diverse as car and motorcycle racing. But I understand, you're a Brit, and me saying it does make it sound like I'm under estimating the Brits, so I apologize.


SO...Spain, Italy, USA, Germany, France. I would say have similar levels of endurance athletes winning Olympic medals so presumably all their riders are doped too. I've listed endurance athletes for you to Wikipedia but it turns out you didn't even do that. Seriously, go back to the post, check out the people I listed. All current or recent world or Olympic gold medal winners in endurance events, and that was just some in the last 10 years.

Under your hypothesis this Tour should have just been Froome competing as the only one with African connections


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Wookiebiker said:


> Not sure about them "Not" putting out huge watts.
> 
> Reading Basso talk about the tour this year and stating there isn't anybody can do about it...he talks of being behind the "Sky Train" and pulling 420 watts for extended periods of time and basically getting dropped.
> 
> So if the domestiques are pulling 420+ watts (they are putting more out due to being up front and not in the draft) during 3 week races up climbs for extended periods of time...they are still putting out "Huge" watts. :idea:


The best way to measure things is to look at specifics. 
2012 Tour de France | TrainingPeaks

If we look at stage 7 the climb took Brajkovic 17 minutes to complete, and he lost 46 seconds on the stage winners (16:15 for the fastest time of the day). His power output was reported as 351W, which gives him 5.8 W/kg. Compare this to the 6.5-6.7 w/kg that Armstrong used to hold for 40 minutes and it is clear that things have changed

On the Col de Peyresourde (9.5 km,6.9 %,657 m). Nibali,Wiggins, Froome: 24:28, VAM 1612 m/h, @ 5.99 W/kg

That VAM is nothing spectacular when compared to the 1850+ speeds of the past


----------



## Wookiebiker

Doctor Falsetti said:


> The best way to measure things is to look at specifics.
> 2012 Tour de France | TrainingPeaks
> 
> If we look at stage 7 the climb took Brajkovic 17 minutes to complete, and he lost 46 seconds on the stage winners (16:15 for the fastest time of the day). His power output was reported as 351W, which gives him 5.8 W/kg. Compare this to the 6.5-6.7 w/kg that Armstrong used to hold for 40 minutes and it is clear that things have changed
> 
> On the Col de Peyresourde (9.5 km,6.9 %,657 m). Nibali,Wiggins, Froome: 24:28, VAM 1612 m/h, @ 5.99 W/kg
> 
> That VAM is nothing spectacular when compared to the 1850+ speeds of the past


This is somewhat true...however, wind and other conditions play a factor when it comes to VAM.

What I look at is when former known dopers are talking about the "Sky Train" the way they are, it's basically telling us they are not clean...despite what the numbers may be telling us.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Wookiebiker said:


> This is somewhat true...however, wind and other conditions play a factor when it comes to VAM.
> 
> What I look at is when former known dopers are talking about the "Sky Train" the way they are, it's basically telling us they are not clean...despite what the numbers may be telling us.


Absolutely, Wind and other things play a factor. 

I am not saying that Sky are not doping, they likely are, but I find it interesting that outputs that would be mid pack a few years ago now destroy the field


----------



## roddjbrown

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Absolutely, Wind and other things play a factor.
> 
> I am not saying that Sky are not doping, they likely are, but I find it interesting that outputs that would be mid pack a few years ago now destroy the field


What might be a possible reason for that? I've seen a few people discussing how much lower power outputs are. Does that imply that there's less boosting pre tour and the impressive performances come out of transfusions for recovery? Sky's key strength (and criticism for the armchair fan) has been their relentless tempo riding so I was wondering if that could be the reason?

I don't place too much credence on the opinions of former dopers. Generally they're bitter they got caught


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

roddjbrown said:


> What might be a possible reason for that? I've seen a few people discussing how much lower power outputs are. Does that imply that there's less boosting pre tour and the impressive performances come out of transfusions for recovery? Sky's key strength (and criticism for the armchair fan) has been their relentless tempo riding so I was wondering if that could be the reason?
> 
> I don't place too much credence on the opinions of former dopers. Generally they're bitter they got caught


Less doping, less power. 

Look at the riders doing the tempo. That is an all-star team. No unexpected

I wonder if Basso realizes his teammate is only 30 secs back from Froome?


----------



## Local Hero

aclinjury said:


> runners


The cheating may even be worse. 

Go to letsrun.com and you'll see a similar conversation about PEDs and the top athletes. Many Ethiopian and Kenyan runners have been caught blood doping and using EPO. 

PEDs among runners is widespread from amateurs to pros. A guy got caught with EPO in his blood after collecting a $2000 purse for 9th place in the NYC marathon and a $3000 purse for winning a small half marathon. I actually met him. He was friendly and polite, not someone I would take as a doper. When he won the race he gave some of the prizes--bottles of wine--to my friend's mother. He doesn't drink.

Here's the article:
The Running Life column: How the Big Sur Half Marathon winner was busted for doping - MontereyHerald.com :

_His time of 1 hour, 3 minutes and 48 seconds is remarkable and even more amazing since he finished ninth in the New York Marathon just two weeks before in 2 hours and 11 minutes.

Too good to be true? As it turns out the answer is, unfortunately, yes. Last week the U.S. Anti Doping Agency , that does drug testing for the New York Marathon, announced that Sisay tested positive for using synthetic erythropoietin, known as EPO.
...
Two other runners who train with Sisay have also tested positive for synthetic EPO use, which, fairly or unfairly, casts doubt on anyone he trains with._


----------



## aclinjury

Local Hero said:


> The cheating may even be worse.
> 
> Go to letsrun.com and you'll see a similar conversation about PEDs and the top athletes. Many Ethiopian and Kenyan runners have been caught blood doping and using EPO.
> 
> PEDs among runners is widespread from amateurs to pros. A guy got caught with EPO in his blood after collecting a $2000 purse for 9th place in the NYC marathon and a $3000 purse for winning a small half marathon. I actually met him. He was friendly and polite, not someone I would take as a doper. When he won the race he gave some of the prizes--bottles of wine--to my friend's mother. He doesn't drink.
> 
> Here's the article:
> The Running Life column: How the Big Sur Half Marathon winner was busted for doping - MontereyHerald.com :
> 
> _His time of 1 hour, 3 minutes and 48 seconds is remarkable and even more amazing since he finished ninth in the New York Marathon just two weeks before in 2 hours and 11 minutes.
> 
> Too good to be true? As it turns out the answer is, unfortunately, yes. Last week the U.S. Anti Doping Agency , that does drug testing for the New York Marathon, announced that Sisay tested positive for using synthetic erythropoietin, known as EPO.
> ...
> Two other runners who train with Sisay have also tested positive for synthetic EPO use, which, fairly or unfairly, casts doubt on anyone he trains with._


The difference between Africans and Western athletes is that Western guys have access to much more elaborate venues to hide their doping. Imagine if the Africans having access to everything the Western guys have, heck a whole African village might be competing in the Olympic cleanly.

The fact that the Africans have been caught may be due to their crude doping method, and the fact that not more Western athletes have been caught may be due to the fact that they have access to top notched sophisticate doping program.


----------



## thehook

As much as I want to believe that SKY is clean. There tempo riding daily just looks fishy to me. We are talking about the best of the best. Riders on form! And now Edvald and Porte are pushing the peloton to the limit????

Some of the things I hear on the brodcast and in print sound all to familiar to me? Team training camps, dramatic loss of body weight, "I'm not some **** rider with NO history"," I'm tested frequently", I wanna post my blood values, transparency, I've never failed a test. They all sound like some of the stuff I heard from USPS.

So a track rider switched to the road. Loses alot of weight and now he wins the tour? I sure hope it is clean. And this years route is tailor made for Wiggo. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........


----------



## roddjbrown

I don't think any team, clean or otherwise, could justify themselves by saying something USPS didn't say. I never get that argument. Yes, someone justified their performance by pointing out they were good before. And woah, USPS did the same? Well shock horror, let's lock them up now! They're denying doping?? Lance did that, ALARM BELLS! And hang on, a pro team has TEAM TRAINING CAMPS?! No! Those arguements along with the "they're not sweating enough"/"I can tell blood levels from a facial expression" one really grind.

On the flip side completely agree the performances of Froome, Rogers and Porte look shady but I'll defend Boss Hog to my dying breath (or a failed test)


----------



## Local Hero

aclinjury said:


> The difference between Africans and Western athletes is that Western guys have access to much more elaborate venues to hide their doping. Imagine if the Africans having access to everything the Western guys have, heck a whole African village might be competing in the Olympic cleanly.
> 
> The fact that the Africans have been caught may be due to their crude doping method, and the fact that not more Western athletes have been caught may be due to the fact that they have access to top notched sophisticate doping program.


This is a myth. Not everyone in Africa lives in dirt huts. 

Many East African countries adopted a "whatever it takes to win" approach. Rumors of state sponsored cheating are widespread. This includes issuing fake passports and birth certificates that listed 22 year old athletes as 16, so that they could win junior competitions. In an ironic twist of fate, some 20 years after fraudulently winning a jr title, the same East African runner broke a master's record, but was not recognized because of his fake date of birth.


----------



## terzo rene

Local Hero said:


> I really don't know what we would expect to see differently.
> 
> Hasn't that happened? Tommy V took a few stages this year. (But he's doping too, right?)
> 
> It's not like one rider is taking the TTs, sprints, and hilltop finishes. We still see specialists.


There is a big difference between Tommy V and Fuentes or Ocana in Merckx' era for example - who actually were overall threats but were still able to stay away.

Another aspect of the pre-EPO era was that climbers couldn't improve their TT without hurting their climbing and TT guys couldn't improve climbing without losing something in the TT. Hasn't happened in the last 2 decades. Wiggins being a prime example.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

African running is incredibly dirty and in many cases the key drugs are readily available, easier then the US or Western Europe


----------



## theextremist04

terzo rene said:


> There is a big difference between Tommy V and Fuentes or Ocana in Merckx' era for example - who actually were overall threats but were still able to stay away.
> 
> Another aspect of the pre-EPO era was that climbers couldn't improve their TT without hurting their climbing and TT guys couldn't improve climbing without losing something in the TT. Hasn't happened in the last 2 decades. Wiggins being a prime example.


Wiggins is a good climber, but I would definitely say he's more of a TT guy to me. I can't say for sure about Froome since I haven't ever seen him go all out, but he seems like more of an anomaly to me.


----------



## trailrunner68

theextremist04 said:


> Wiggins is a good climber, but I would definitely say he's more of a TT guy to me. I can't say for sure about Froome since I haven't ever seen him go all out, but he seems like more of an anomaly to me.


Wiggins was never a good climber. He used to come in with the autobus on climbing stages. Then in 2009, halfway through his career, he could suddenly climb. Starting at the Vuelta last year, not only could he climb but he could climb as well as the climbing specialists.

As said above, it all looks a bit fishy, especially when Wiggins' transformation is combined with Froome coming out of nowhere plus Porte and Rogers performing better than ever. Rogers is especially suspicious. The former client of Dr. Ferrari and participant in T-Mobile's blood doping program is putting out better power numbers than when he was doping.

The British fans now sound just like the Armstrong fans of ten years ago. Just like the fanboys then, there is a heavy component of nationalism that runs through everything. In fact, the Brits seem even more jingoistic than the Americans ever did. They are coming up with all sort of laughable reasons for it not being possible for Wiggins to be doping, like British moral superiority.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> African running is incredibly dirty and in many cases the key drugs are readily available, easier then the US or Western Europe


For once we agree, though I cannot agree with you repeatedly using_ then_ in the place of_ than_.


----------



## il sogno

Yep. I think they're doping.


----------



## roddjbrown

trailrunner68 said:


> Wiggins was never a good climber. He used to come in with the autobus on climbing stages. Then in 2009, halfway through his career, he could suddenly climb. Starting at the Vuelta last year, not only could he climb but he could climb as well as the climbing specialists.
> 
> As said above, it all looks a bit fishy, especially when Wiggins' transformation is combined with Froome coming out of nowhere plus Porte and Rogers performing better than ever. Rogers is especially suspicious. The former client of Dr. Ferrari and participant in T-Mobile's blood doping program is putting out better power numbers than when he was doping.
> 
> The British fans now sound just like the Armstrong fans of ten years ago. Just like the fanboys then, there is a heavy component of nationalism that runs through everything. In fact, the Brits seem even more jingoistic than the Americans ever did. They are coming up with all sort of laughable reasons for it not being possible for Wiggins to be doping, like British moral superiority.


Is anyone still saying they're not? I'm a British Sky fan who has repeatedly said that they most likely are.

And yet I see you (and others) in every thread making these anti-British comments which irritates me because it's creating an argument out of something that isn't there. Everyone knows that Froome, Rogers, Porte etc. looks fishy (fwiw I don't think Wiggins does particularly as barring one time trial I haven't seen him do anything that exceptional). Sometimes I wonder if this less about discussing doping and more about people's own national team/cyclists not doing well. Or maybe it's LA fanboys who got stung and now like to accuse everyone else of being fanboys because the humiliation hurt them. 

Mind you, can you provide 1) a link to the Rogers participation in T-Mobile blood doping and 2) the relative power outputs of him now and then please? I'd be interested to see when so many people are talking about lower outputs

What is it about this forum that makes people think that anti-national sentiments and unsupported facts are ok?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

roddjbrown said:


> Mind you, can you provide 1) a link to the Rogers participation in T-Mobile blood doping and 2) the relative power outputs of him now and then please? I'd be interested to see when so many people are talking about lower outputs
> 
> What is it about this forum that makes people think that anti-national sentiments and unsupported facts are ok?


The Frieburg report does not mention Rogers. He was however a client of Ferrari until Telekom made him stop. 

The best site to explore historic VAM and output is http://www.sportsscientists.com/


----------



## yurl

well Rogers' comeback from the pro scrap heap this year has been amazing. last year he looked old, worn out and going into retirement. this year he's looked like a superdomestique in the quality of a Voigt/FC. Then there's Porte's ITT. how did he pull that time after all the work he's been doing at the front of for Wiggins. Sure smells like Postal


----------



## roddjbrown

yurl said:


> well Rogers' comeback from the pro scrap heap this year has been amazing. last year he looked old, worn out and going into retirement. this year he's looked like a superdomestique in the quality of a Voigt/FC. Then there's Porte's ITT. how did he pull that time after all the work he's been doing at the front of for Wiggins. Sure smells like Postal


Man alive, Porte's ITT is ridiculous. 

I give up trying to apply reasoned logic to question the accusations. They just don't help themselves.


----------



## 88 rex

Wiggo.....wow.


----------



## Dwayne Barry

So before the Vuelta last year, is there any evidence of a TT pedigree from Froome?


----------



## roddjbrown

Doctor Falsetti said:


> The Frieburg report does not mention Rogers. He was however a client of Ferrari until Telekom made him stop.
> 
> The best site to explore historic VAM and output is The Science of Sport





trailrunner68 said:


> The former client of Dr. Ferrari and participant in T-Mobile's blood doping program is putting out better power numbers than when he was doping


I did have a look at the link but can't find anything on Rogers. Trailrunner can you reference where you got the power output data from? I'm not saying he isn't putting out more, just very surprised given that website seems to be saying we're not seeing higher power outputs in general


----------



## DrSmile

Sky got rid of their team doctor in 2010 for no official reason... and hired Dr. Geert Leinders. He was previously the team doctor for Rabobank (think Michael Rasmussen). You connect the dots.


----------



## trailrunner68

roddjbrown said:


> I did have a look at the link but can't find anything on Rogers. Trailrunner can you reference where you got the power output data from? I'm not saying he isn't putting out more, just very surprised given that website seems to be saying we're not seeing higher power outputs in general


Rogers has said he is putting out his best power numbers ever. I am not aware of him providing actual numbers. Maybe he is lying but given his recent performance, I doubt it.


----------



## cq20

DrSmile said:


> Sky got rid of their team doctor in 2010 for no official reason... and hired Dr. Geert Leinders. He was previously the team doctor for Rabobank (think Michael Rasmussen). You connect the dots.


... from a link in the Cofidis posts (inter alia other points)



> Dr Alan Farrell is Sky's full-time medical doctor and Leinders is one of a team of four doctors Sky employ on a part-time basis to help look after the riders during their extensive programme around the world.


----------



## trailrunner68

You have to love this quote from Wiggins.



> "When we were riding on the front at 450 watts or whatever, someone would attack and Mick Rogers would say ‘just leave him, he can’t sustain it,’” Wiggins said.


Rogers! What a joke. 

Tour de Farce. This is worse than the Postal years. At least during that time the leaders of the contending teams could ride to the finish or nearly so with Armstrong.


----------



## coop

roddjbrown said:


> Is anyone still saying they're not? I'm a British Sky fan who has repeatedly said that they most likely are.
> 
> And yet I see you (and others) in every thread making these anti-British comments which irritates me because it's creating an argument out of something that isn't there. Everyone knows that Froome, Rogers, Porte etc. looks fishy (fwiw I don't think Wiggins does particularly as barring one time trial I haven't seen him do anything that exceptional). Sometimes I wonder if this less about discussing doping and more about people's own national team/cyclists not doing well. Or maybe it's LA fanboys who got stung and now like to accuse everyone else of being fanboys because the humiliation hurt them.
> 
> Mind you, can you provide 1) a link to the Rogers participation in T-Mobile blood doping and 2) the relative power outputs of him now and then please? I'd be interested to see when so many people are talking about lower outputs
> 
> What is it about this forum that makes people think that anti-national sentiments and unsupported facts are ok?


 You're probably on to something here, But some of your fellow Brits have have been equally nationalistic. You and your fellow countrymen are dealing with many of the same issues us Americans dealt with during the Armstrong era. Yes, we've all been there, done that, and wore the bracelet. That probably makes us more knowledgeable on the excuses that many Brits are currently using, and that's why they're being jumped all over. It's not really fair, but it is what it is.


----------



## Local Hero

We now see climbing trains equivalent to top lead out trains. 

When HTC was dominating the run in, a rider _could_ attack off the front. But HTC would not panic and the attacker would get reeled in.


----------



## roddjbrown

coop said:


> You're probably on to something here, But some of your fellow Brits have have been equally nationalistic. You and your fellow countrymen are dealing with many of the same issues us Americans dealt with during the Armstrong era. Yes, we've all been there, done that, and wore the bracelet. That probably makes us more knowledgeable on the excuses that many Brits are currently using, and that's why they're being jumped all over. It's not really fair, but it is what it is.



My point is just that anyone posting on this forum is treated like an idiot for posting anything that might suggest teams are clean. I do believe there's some thing fishy about Sky, and I get that suspicion is warranted but there should also be reasoned debate. Trail runner just posted that this is worse than the USPS years?! How?! One team dominated one tour and you're going to compare this to USPS domination?

When people say that want to believe the peloton is clean I know they're lying. They're either going to believe its clean when one of their riders is winning or they'll always believe its dirty because without it they'd have nothing to discuss. I get that some people have been stung by this before. If a national icon in the UK was brought crashing down I can honestly say I'd feel exactly the same.

I think we shouldn't forget that whilst we agree that Sky looks suspicious they've failed nothing, and as far as I'm aware none of the team are even proven ex dopers (I know there's the T-Mobile suspicion over Porte). All these are are opinions and stating facts which are nothing more than opinion is both trolling and only serves to put people off this sport.


----------



## den bakker

roddjbrown said:


> My point is just that anyone posting on this forum is treated like an idiot for posting anything that might suggest teams are clean. I do believe there's some thing fishy about Sky, and I get that suspicion is warranted but there should also be reasoned debate. Trail runner just posted that this is worse than the USPS years?! How?! One team dominated one tour and you're going to compare this to USPS domination?
> 
> When people say that want to believe the peloton is clean I know they're lying. They're either going to believe its clean when one of their riders is winning or they'll always believe its dirty because without it they'd have nothing to discuss. I get that some people have been stung by this before. If a national icon in the UK was brought crashing down I can honestly say I'd feel exactly the same.
> 
> I think we shouldn't forget that whilst we agree that Sky looks suspicious they've failed nothing, and as far as I'm aware none of the team are even proven ex dopers (I know there's the T-Mobile suspicion over Porte). All these are are opinions and stating facts which are nothing more than opinion is both trolling and only serves to put people off this sport.


ah yes, the "sour grapes" argument. Now we just need "bilharzia lovers" and we can party like it's 1999 again. Especially the part of killing the sport. that's a classic. It can even be re-used 12 years later :thumbsup:
Porte has never ridden for t-mobile.


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## roddjbrown

I meant Rogers, apologies.

But thanks for proving my point that legitimate debate is pointless. Smileys - the scourge of intellect


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## den bakker

roddjbrown said:


> I meant Rogers, apologies.
> 
> But thanks for proving my point that legitimate debate is pointless. Smileys - the scourge of intellect


you want milk with your cookie? 

I'm sorry but if one does not think Wiggins has climbed exceptionally well this year there's really very little room for any kind of discussion. There's one guy that climbed better. The renowned climber Froome.


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## roddjbrown

den bakker said:


> you want milk with your cookie?
> 
> I'm sorry but if one does not think Wiggins has climbed exceptionally well this year there's really very little room for any kind of discussion. There's one guy that climbed better. The renowned climber Froome.


Here's the thing. In the interest of actual debate no I don't. Sportscience has shown that actually no one has climbed exceptionally in comparison to known doping tours. We never saw anyone actually attack at the level we've seen in previous tours. No Schleck/Contador style leaping off the front unless you count Evans/Nibbles half hearted attacks with no team support. Now yes I get the argument that they couldn't attack like that because the pace was too high but then the ascent times were much lower than we've previously seen. However, I'm not saying Wiggins wasn't doping, truth is I don't know. As it goes I don't like him but I actually think he COULD have put out these performances clean.

However, they key to Wiggins plan was the domestiques and they I completely agree look dirty as anything. Froome particularly seems to be a gangly Contador with that kick in the mountains along with an incredible ITT and he magically appeared like a fairy godmother to deliver Wiggins.

I'm no Sky apologist. I like them for some riders like Geraint and Cav but I'm not naive or stupid enough to suggest that they are above doping nor that the temptation isn't there for them.


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## coop

roddjbrown said:


> My point is just that anyone posting on this forum is treated like an idiot for posting anything that might suggest teams are clean. I do believe there's some thing fishy about Sky, and I get that suspicion is warranted but there should also be reasoned debate. Trail runner just posted that this is worse than the USPS years?! How?! One team dominated one tour and you're going to compare this to USPS domination?
> 
> When people say that want to believe the peloton is clean I know they're lying. They're either going to believe its clean when one of their riders is winning or they'll always believe its dirty because without it they'd have nothing to discuss. I get that some people have been stung by this before. If a national icon in the UK was brought crashing down I can honestly say I'd feel exactly the same.
> 
> I think we shouldn't forget that whilst we agree that Sky looks suspicious they've failed nothing, and as far as I'm aware none of the team are even proven ex dopers (I know there's the T-Mobile suspicion over Porte). All these are are opinions and stating facts which are nothing more than opinion is both trolling and only serves to put people off this sport.



Welcome to the wonderful world of internet forums! Facts are useless here and speculation is the only thing that matters.


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## atpjunkie

I always enjoy the 'this team has better dope than the other teams' threads like somehow this one squad has access to PEDs the rest do not


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## Dwayne Barry

atpjunkie said:


> I always enjoy the 'this team has better dope than the other teams' threads like somehow this one squad has access to PEDs the rest do not


Well we've not heard of team-wide blood doping other than USPS/Discovery. I don't think it's so much the access to the PEDs/techniques as the will and organization to employ them.


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## roddjbrown

Dwayne Barry said:


> Well we've not heard of team-wide blood doping other than USPS/Discovery. I don't think it's so much the access to the PEDs/techniques as the will and organization to employ them.


Well...T Mobile, Astana, Rabobank?


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## davidka

Dwayne Barry said:


> Well we've not heard of team-wide blood doping other than USPS/Discovery. I don't think it's so much the access to the PEDs/techniques as the will and organization to employ them.


Festina, Telekom/T-Mobil, Gerolsteiner, Kelme, Once...


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## Dwayne Barry

I didn't say team organized doping, I said team-wide blood doping. The closest that I think we've heard of is select riders from T-Mobile going to the Freiburg clinic during the Tour.

That's not the same as having every member of your TdF team getting refills on the rest day.

As best as I can recall all the other blood doping has involved select riders, not the team as a whole.

USPS/Discovery at least from what we know did appear, as a team, to be out doping their competitors because they organized team-wide blood doping for the Tour. So it can clearly be done with the will and the organization.

I would speculate any team running a doping program, as opposed to individual riders doping on their own, would have an advantage these days.

So again, it's not access to PEDs that others don't have access to, it's the will and organization to employ them that could potentially separate one team from the others.


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## atpjunkie

*Team Wide*



Dwayne Barry said:


> Well we've not heard of team-wide blood doping other than USPS/Discovery. I don't think it's so much the access to the PEDs/techniques as the will and organization to employ them.


Once / Liberty Seguros, T Mobile, Hell I bet Phonak

We only hear about USPS / Disco because they are the #1 topic. I imagine every major $ team has a program. T-Kom? geez those are/were mostly East Germans.

I imagine every team has their programs


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## rideorglide

Personally, I want to believe, and I will believe until or if it's proven otherwise — I'm a Brit, so that's a given.

But when Wiggins entered the hut after Saturday's time trial he was greeted by a stone-faced dude and had a look on his face like he'd stolen something. 

I read the same facial impressions today, I did not see the jubilation I expected. Maybe that's how he is, he's a blunt and sanguine guy, why should I be surprised. 

But my instincts are fighting my heart on this one. I feel uneasy. I hope they are clean as a whistle. I am not going to hold my breath, but I will be on tenterhooks hoping that this result stands the test of time.


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## davidka

Dwayne Barry said:


> I didn't say team organized doping, I said team-wide blood doping. The closest that I think we've heard of is select riders from T-Mobile going to the Freiburg clinic during the Tour.
> 
> That's not the same as having every member of your TdF team getting refills on the rest day.
> 
> As best as I can recall all the other blood doping has involved select riders, not the team as a whole.
> 
> USPS/Discovery at least from what we know did appear, as a team, to be out doping their competitors because they organized team-wide blood doping for the Tour. So it can clearly be done with the will and the organization.
> 
> I would speculate any team running a doping program, as opposed to individual riders doping on their own, would have an advantage these days.
> 
> So again, it's not access to PEDs that others don't have access to, it's the will and organization to employ them that could potentially separate one team from the others.


Team organized doping and team wide blood doping = same thing. A team would not embark on organized doping without doing the things they needed to to be competitive. In 1998, when the Festina scandal broke, Once proclaimed that they could not race under the conditions that were brought on by the race security/anti-doping measures. On the way out one of their team cars was pulled over and found to have a trunk full of drugs in it. 

USPS may have had a great program but they also employed the same method as Banesto before them. They paid lots of $$ for the best riders so that their TdF team was well deeper than the final 9 they brought to the race. Doped or not, they were of a very high pedigree.


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## Local Hero

For those who think that Sky riders doped, what evidence would convince you that they are clean?


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## The Tedinator

Local Hero said:


> For those who think that Sky riders doped, what evidence would convince you that they are clean?


1. Fire Geert Leinders

2. Show the transparency that was promised when the team was formed, including the publishing of blood values.

3. 1 and 2, then a repeat performance of this years tour by Rogers, Froome and Porte.


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## Dwayne Barry

davidka said:


> Team organized doping and team wide blood doping = same thing.


No it's not if you can get an advantage with the blood doping. Obviously there are logistics to blood doping that make it a bit different than most doping. 

I still stand by my previous statement, we have not heard of any team blood doping their entire team for a race. If you think about it, if you're not the team that needs to control the race then blood doping the whole team doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense.

Even what we've heard about Patrick Lefevre's teams which have been the big team for the classics for well over a decade, they didn't dope every rider. The leader and his key domestiques got the A treatment, if you were to go deep into the race in a secondary role you got the B treatment, and if you had very little responsibility you might get nothing at all.


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## Dwayne Barry

atpjunkie said:


> Once / Liberty Seguros, T Mobile, Hell I bet Phonak
> 
> We only hear about USPS / Disco because they are the #1 topic. I imagine every major $ team has a program. T-Kom? geez those are/were mostly East Germans.
> 
> I imagine every team has their programs


It's not like there haven't been insights into almost all of those teams. No one has talked about blood doping an entire squad for a race except Bruyneel's boys, and in that case it I think it's only been talked about for the Tour.


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## roddjbrown

The Tedinator said:


> 1. Fire Geert Leinders
> 
> 2. Show the transparency that was promised when the team was formed, including the publishing of blood values.
> 
> 3. 1 and 2, then a repeat performance of this years tour by Rogers, Froome and Porte.


1) Agree

2) REALLY agree. Wiggins has published his blood values before, do it now when it actually matters. 

3) Sky won one race and got called USPS. Win it again and heads would explode.


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## Doctor Falsetti

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...g-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Kimmage on Sky


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## Doctor Falsetti

roddjbrown said:


> 1) Agree
> 
> 2) REALLY agree. Wiggins has published his blood values before, do it now when it actually matters.
> 
> 3) Sky won one race and got called USPS. Win it again and heads would explode.


While I would like to see their blood values I can see why they would not release them. I see no reason they can't publish some of their SRM data


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## davidka

Dwayne Barry said:


> No it's not if you can get an advantage with the blood doping. Obviously there are logistics to blood doping that make it a bit different than most doping.
> 
> I still stand by my previous statement, we have not heard of any team blood doping their entire team for a race. If you think about it, if you're not the team that needs to control the race then blood doping the whole team doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense.
> 
> .


I agree, working with stored blood does present a unique set of issues. As for other teams, aside from every rider coming forward and confirming that they were doped we only have evidence to support the claims. We have at least enough evidence on Festina and Once to confirm that they were team-wide doping programs to a higher standard than we have with USPS. Both of those teams were caught with large supplies of drugs and materials in team vehicles, not personal stashes. 



Doctor Falsetti said:


> While I would like to see their blood values I can see why they would not release them. I see no reason they can't publish some of their SRM data


This would be a great start. I'd like to see Wiggo's power file from his ride up Ventoux in 09' against his rides up the big climbs this year.

I can't condemn them on what I saw this year but I would not defend them either. You know what they say about things that seem too good to be true...


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## PaxRomana

atpjunkie said:


> I always enjoy the 'this team has better dope than the other teams' threads like somehow this one squad has access to PEDs the rest do not


Yeah, that's why nobody needs to hire Ferrari because they all have access to the same dope and techniques. Right? 

More $$$ = better products, more products, better doctors. This has been explained about a zillion times. Not sure why people still aren't getting it. There's a reason Ferrari charges 10% of a rider's salary and a VERY good reason why Armstrong wanted his services exclusively.


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## PaxRomana

As far as Sky are concerned, a team with ZERO GT winners and not even a podium finisher before last year's Vuelta managed to be the first team in the entire history of the Tour de France to place 1-2. THE FIRST EVER.

All with a former track rider who years ago struggled to even finish the race and another rider who had some mysterious blood disease that kept him out of competition for most of this year.

On a team who uses a Dutch dope doctor.

Yeah. Clean. Right.


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## Dwayne Barry

davidka said:


> As for other teams, aside from every rider coming forward and confirming that they were doped we only have evidence to support the claims. We have at least enough evidence on Festina and Once to confirm that they were team-wide doping programs to a higher standard than we have with USPS.


I don't think there is much doubt that all the big teams ran doping programs until sometime in the 2000's.

I'd doubt if any team takes this risk these days, but I think if one did, even with just a subset of their riders, there would likely be an advantage gained.


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## Doctor Falsetti

PaxRomana said:


> As far as Sky are concerned, a team with ZERO GT winners and not even a podium finisher before last year's Vuelta *managed to be the first team in the entire history of the Tour de France to place 1-2. THE FIRST EVER.*
> .


Nope

1985 &1986 le Vie Claire went 1, 2


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## Dwayne Barry

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nope
> 
> 1985 &1986 le Vie Claire went 1, 2


Didn't Riis and Ullrich go 1,2 as well?


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## trailrunner68

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nope
> 
> 1985 &1986 le Vie Claire went 1, 2


I rode with Hinault and LeMond. I knew Hinault and LeMond. Hinault and LeMond were friends of mine. Wiggins and Froome, you are no Hinault and LeMond. You two are not even Riis and Ullrich.


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## PaxRomana

I stand corrected. Lemond-Hinault and Riis-Ullrich.

We know about the second 2. 

Wiggo and Froome aren't in the same galaxy as Hinault and Lemond.


----------



## foofighter

PaxRomana said:


> As far as Sky are concerned, a team with ZERO GT winners and not even a podium finisher before last year's Vuelta managed to be the first team in the entire history of the Tour de France to place 1-2. THE FIRST EVER.
> 
> *All with a former track rider who years ago struggled to even finish the race and another rider who had some mysterious blood disease that kept him out of competition for most of this year.*
> 
> On a team who uses a Dutch dope doctor.
> 
> Yeah. Clean. Right.


THIS right here. I wonder if that blood illness had anything to do w/ it because i recall hearing from the commentators that the treatment was very much like going through chemo and it just basically killed everything. so when you body recovers you get a nice fresh start no?


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## nate

PaxRomana said:


> As far as Sky are concerned, a team with ZERO GT winners and not even a podium finisher before last year's Vuelta managed to be the first team in the entire history of the Tour de France to place 1-2. THE FIRST EVER.
> 
> All with a former track rider who years ago struggled to even finish the race and another rider who had some mysterious blood disease that kept him out of competition for most of this year.
> 
> On a team who uses a Dutch dope doctor.
> 
> Yeah. Clean. Right.


It was reported that he had bilharzia, a disease caused by parasitic worms. It isn't that mysterious and is completely plausible since he surely still travels to Africa regularly after growing up there.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/533006/froome-the-fighter.html

Whether his recovery to top form so soon after treatment is unusual is probably a different question.


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## trailrunner68

nate said:


> It was reported that he had bilharzia, a disease caused by parasitic worms. It isn't that mysterious and is completely plausible since he surely still travels to Africa regularly after growing up there.
> 
> Chris Froome the fighter: Exclusive interview | Latest News | Cycling Weekly
> 
> Whether his recovery to top form so soon after treatment is unusual is probably a different question.


It doesn't explain the Vuelta. In fact it makes it even more suspicious.


----------



## coop

foofighter said:


> THIS right here. I wonder if that blood illness had anything to do w/ it because i recall hearing from the commentators that the treatment was very much like going through chemo and it just basically killed everything. so when you body recovers you get a nice fresh start no?



Like I've said before, Armstrong had cancer, Froome had snail disease! It's time ti whip out the green wrist bands and bring awareness to this horrible, yet strangely empowering ailment! SNAILSTRONG everyone!:idea:


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## PaxRomana

Strange how Froome's bilharzia seems to disappear around Grand Tours.

Since contracting this disease in November 2010, he's finished 2nd in the last two GTs he has entered.


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## orange_julius

trailrunner68 said:


> I rode with Hinault and LeMond. I knew Hinault and LeMond. Hinault and LeMond were friends of mine. Wiggins and Froome, you are no Hinault and LeMond. You two are not even Riis and Ullrich.


Does this make you the only common friend of both Hinault and LeMond? Just kidding ... ! :-D
Off topic, but have you read "Slaying the Badger"? If so, what do you think of it?


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## The Tedinator

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/...ins-olympic-time-trial?cat=sport&type=article

Anyone else want to take a shot at this? I am too much of a bone idle wanker to comment.


----------



## 88 rex

The Tedinator said:


> http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/...ins-olympic-time-trial?cat=sport&type=article
> 
> Anyone else want to take a shot at this? I am too much of a bone idle wanker to comment.


I don't understand what he's saying, but it sounds like he's saying he's making "mind blowing" power now.


----------



## The Tedinator

....and that slower cadence was discovered by a swimming coach! Astounding.


----------



## The Tedinator

Stage 6 of the Vuelta today. UKPostal at their old tricks again! 3 Sky riders on the front of the climb, ride
Gesink and Contadoper off their wheels. Only Purito able to hang with Froome. I know everyone here is waiting with bated breath for the LA non-presser. But is anyone keeping up with this Sky farce?


----------



## trailrunner68

The Tedinator said:


> Stage 6 of the Vuelta today. UKPostal at their old tricks again! 3 Sky riders on the front of the climb, ride
> Gesink and Contadoper off their wheels. Only Purito able to hang with Froome. I know everyone here is waiting with bated breath for the LA non-presser. But is anyone keeping up with this Sky farce?


The whole thing is a joke. Sky met with the ASO and UCI to discuss blood values before the Tour. Fact. At the beginning of the Tour, in an interview McQuaid lamented that he would not be able to attend Sky's victory party. Fact. He knew the fix was in. It looks like Sky has been given the green light by the UCI. I suspect that at the same time other teams have been warned about their blood values. 

The passport is a great tool for manipulation of results. The sport can be grown with new GT winners. A first Australian winner, a first Canadian winner, a first English winner. It works a lot better than putting races in China and Qatar.


----------



## foto

Anyone care to mention Team Sky's Vuelta performance?

Or is it only succesful people that are subject to the aspirtions of the cynics in the Doping Forum, and the deep thinkers that derailed so many of the Tour threads?


----------



## roddjbrown

foto said:


> Anyone care to mention Team Sky's Vuelta performance?
> 
> Or is it only succesful people that are subject to the aspirtions of the cynics in the Doping Forum, and the deep thinkers that derailed so many of the Tour threads?


I think it's written into doping forum law that all winners are doped and the rest of the peloton (except Jens) are just doping less effectively.


----------



## The Tedinator

foto said:


> Anyone care to mention Team Sky's Vuelta performance?
> 
> Or is it only succesful people that are subject to the aspirtions of the cynics in the Doping Forum, and the deep thinkers that derailed so many of the Tour threads?


Maybe Froome, Porte, et. al are just wore out. Even IF Sky is on a team wide program, your body sooner or later is going to just shut down. Or maybe their buds at the UCI told them to tone it down a notch. Plus, Froome finished 4th behind Contador (clenbuterol), Valverde (Operation Puerto), and a highly suspicious Purito. The arms race is starting all over again! Just wait until next year.


----------



## Cableguy

foto said:


> Anyone care to mention Team Sky's Vuelta performance?


Besides Wiggins being gone, how did their roster change between the Tour and Vuelta? Froome not having a super domestique (himself) like Wiggins had didn't help. Any recycled teammates from the Tour were also probably tired, including Froome himself who also did the Olympics to boot.


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## Cableguy

The Tedinator said:


> Or maybe their buds at the UCI told them to tone it down a notch.


I didn't want to mention this to avoid looking like a paranoid conspiracy theorist, so I'm glad you said it


----------



## The Tedinator

Cableguy said:


> I didn't want to mention this to avoid looking like a paranoid conspiracy theorist, so I'm glad you said it


It OK. Us bone idle wankers have nothing better to do! 

Besides, after reading Tyler's book; how Lance just called his bud Hein and got the big bad 2001 positive to just go away, how Lance ratted out Tyler and Iban Mayo and had the UCI call them in to threaten them.....well, it really isn't a big leap of paranoia to this year when Sky goes to Aigle and has a looooong talk with their new bud Fat Pat about blood values and such.


----------



## The Tedinator

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leinders-not-renewed-after-team-sky-investigation

Well, well. I guess all the saddle sores of the Sky boys are now cured!

Just remember, Lance "fired" Ferrari too. Well, sort of.


----------



## moskowe

Damage control much ? 
Such hypocrites, it's really pathetic.


----------



## The Tedinator

So now we have:

1. Leinders. Hired to help save Sky from flesh eating bacteria.

2. Michael Barry. Confessed doper who made it to Sky despite their "zero tolerance policy"

3. Mick Rogers. Fingered in a legal affidavit by Levi Leipheimer to be in Tenerife at a high altitude Ferrari doping camp; but now, six years later, performing at the best level of his career.

4. Wiggo. Now longer Lance's BFF, but now can't even remember having ever ridden with Armstrong at the TdF, despite finishing one place behind him in 2009.

Once again, all I can say if it quacks like a duck.........


----------



## foto

The Tedinator said:


> So now we have:
> 
> 1. Leinders. Hired to help save Sky from flesh eating bacteria.
> 
> 2. Michael Barry. Confessed doper who made it to Sky despite their "zero tolerance policy"
> 
> 3. Mick Rodgers. Fingered in a legal affidavit by Levi Leipheimer to be in Tenerife at a high altitude Ferrari doping camp; but now, six years later, performing at the best level of his career.
> 
> 4. Wiggo. Now longer Lance's BFF, but now can't even remember having ever ridden with Armstrong at the TdF, despite finishing one place behind him in 2009.
> 
> Once again, all I can say if it quacks like a duck.........


yes, at this point, that's all you can say...


----------



## The Tedinator

http://audioboo.fm/boos/1001448-i-n...sean-yates-former-teammate-of-lance-armstrong

"I just rode my bike, and jumped in the car and drove. I never saw anything."

Quack quack.


----------



## trailrunner68

The Tedinator said:


> Audioboo / "I never saw anything dodgy going on" - Sean Yates, former teammate of Lance Armstrong.
> 
> "I just rode my bike, and jumped in the car and drove. I never saw anything."
> 
> Quack quack.


Sgt. Yates. "I know nothing."


----------



## gh1

The Tedinator said:


> So now we have:
> 
> 1. Leinders. Hired to help save Sky from flesh eating bacteria.
> 
> 2. Michael Barry. Confessed doper who made it to Sky despite their "zero tolerance policy"
> 
> 3. Mick Rogers. Fingered in a legal affidavit by Levi Leipheimer to be in Tenerife at a high altitude Ferrari doping camp; but now, six years later, performing at the best level of his career.
> 
> 4. Wiggo. Now longer Lance's BFF, but now can't even remember having ever ridden with Armstrong at the TdF, despite finishing one place behind him in 2009.
> 
> Once again, all I can say if it quacks like a duck.........


Add to that the pictures of yates with motoman and Brailsford being completely shocked by the USADA reports. quack, quack.


----------

