# competitive road, endurance road? help!



## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

ciOkay after years of racing bmx and riding mountain bikes I've decided to start road biking and am in the process of buying my first one. I live in a big suburban area right outside los Angeles but do plan on doin 40 mile rides up the coast and riding on the endless bike paths around my town. I'm 5'7 150 I went to my local shop know what fits me but I don't know if a non endurance bike will end up being uncomfortable any advice? I also saw some of the specialized secteurs with the disc brakes any input on those I just don't wanna regret anything one way or another I can spend 1500$ and my local shop is offering me a 2013 trek 2.1 for a grand which will leave me money for all the accessories. But at this price range are all the bikes basically the same I mean I know that when spending 3-6 grand one bike can blow the other away an they will be basically the same price is that possible at my price range it seems that at these entry level bikes its just preference I know I'm all over the place just a newbie that is tryin to pick up as much knowledge as possible


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## Icetech (Aug 13, 2012)

I am fairly new myself.. but i would ask them to test out a comp and a endurance.. I just bought a secteur myself and i am pretty happy with it.. only thing i dont like is that i bought the base model.. and its a bit heavy.. other than that its been great. 

P.S. if you arn't gonna be johnny racer dont buy a race bike Endurance are comfy...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

My advice is to visit some LBS's, get sized/ fitted to both race/ relaxed geo bikes and go for some test rides. That, IMO/E is the best way to determine preferences and help you whittle the field from there. 

The differences between race and relaxed geo are fairly subtle, with race having a slightly more aggressive riding position and slightly quicker (some say twitchy) handling, while relaxed allow for a slightly more upright position and slightly slower (some say predictable) handling. 

With your cycling background, you may already have a preferred shop. If so, tap them as a resource in your search for a road bike. They may offer some additional advice/ guidance.

Re: the Secteur disc, I think discs offer some advantage in wet/ adverse riding conditions, where dual pivots are more likely to pick up road grit, diminishing stopping power. But there are trade-offs (weight being one), so consider the need before going that route. Given your location, there may be no need for anything other than dual pivots.


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, i have been in my local shop but they have become strictly a trek dealer so the variety is slim picking... soo when it comes to the treks it seems like its the madone(sporty) and domane (endurance). The thing is there are miles of tight turning bike paths in my area which would probably be a blast with a more sportier bike but it just seems that the differences are soo subtle that i wonder if when im going on a long ride through the city id regret not having an endurance bike an then when im on the tight turning paths id regret not having a sporty bike


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

and on the 2.3 it says one of the upgrades are tubless race ready wheels what does that mean an a carbon seat post an its like 500 dollars more almost is it worth going with the 2.3


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

I started with a Secteur, thinking that I needed "comfort" at the age of 46. I quickly found I was plenty comfortable on something more aggressive, so switched to a Cervelo R3 and never looked back. Most of my rides are in the 40-70 mile range and I am plenty comfortable. Perhaps more so, owing to the fact that the R3 handles better making me more confident a higher speeds, turning, descents, etc. 

It's a bit like the difference between a Lexus and an Audi. One is a bit more comfortable, while the other is more performance oriented. Both are fine cars, but if you get the wrong one for your type of driving, you will not be happy with your experience.

PS - paragraph breaks and periods... Trust me.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cyanca said:


> Thanks for the advice, i have been in my local shop but they have become strictly a trek dealer so the variety is slim picking... soo when it comes to the treks it seems like its the madone(sporty) and domane (endurance). The thing is there are miles of tight turning bike paths in my area which would probably be a blast with a more sportier bike but it just seems that* the differences are soo subtle* that i wonder if when im going on a long ride through the city id regret not having an endurance bike an then when im on the tight turning paths id regret not having a sporty bike


You've answered your own question here. The differences between race/ relaxed geo bikes _are_ subtle, so you don't need two different types of bikes to enjoy your rides in either environment (long rides/ curvy trails). Don't over think this.... 

Re: the upgrades, save your money. CF seat posts will offer next to no benefits and when the time comes to upgrades you wheelset, there are better choices than Bonty's.


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## RyleyinSTL (Aug 6, 2012)

I just went through all this myself....do I want endurance or race geometry? I road everything I could get my hands on over a 2 week period. In the end I went endurance with a Trek Domane 5.2.

Endurance bikes generally have shorter top tubes, longer head tubes, longer wheel base, lower bottom brackets, and are generally designed with slightly more vertical compliance in mind. The idea is to increase comfort (especially over longer distances) and give the bike slightly less responsive "titchy" handling. In my opinion, if you don't plan on joining the local crit, an endurance bike is likely for you. IMO an endurance bike is generally the most appropriate machine for what most non-racers are doing with their road bikes. That said, everyone is different and you really need to test ride everything you can.

For me the Domane won out over other endurance bikes due to the IsoSpeed business. The difference in smoothness between it and a traditionally constructed bike is night and day...yet I can still mash it up a hill as well as anything else.


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## Short Fuse (Aug 22, 2012)

RyleyinSTL,
Did you happen to try out the aluminum Domane 2 series? I am wondering if the IsoSpeed features would be of even more benefit with the less forgiving frame material. Thanks.


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## RyleyinSTL (Aug 6, 2012)

Short Fuse said:


> RyleyinSTL,
> Did you happen to try out the aluminum Domane 2 series? I am wondering if the IsoSpeed features would be of even more benefit with the less forgiving frame material. Thanks.


I did not - I'd guess the IsoSpeed system would have less vertical deflection with the aluminium. That said, aluminium isn't necessarily less forgiving than carbon, it's all about how the 2 materials are used, prepared, etc. The thing with carbon, if so designed, is that you can get the bike to give vertically without giving horizontally, it is harder to do that as drastically with aluminium.

Ride both bikes back to back over broken pavement and you'll get a clear answer.


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

"I started with a Secteur, thinking that I needed "comfort" at the age of 46. I quickly found I was plenty comfortable on something more aggressive, so switched to a Cervelo R3 and never looked back. Most of my rides are in the 40-70 mile range and I am plenty comfortable. Perhaps more so, owing to the fact that the R3 handles better making me more confident a higher speeds, turning, descents, etc."

thanks for the advice, unfortunately my local shop only carries trek but they are willing to give me 25% off any 2013 models so thats good. But i have to put money down for them to order any 2013 so id have to spend money on it before being able to ride it so i guess ill give the 2012 2.1 a ride since from what im being told the 2.3 is a waste of money.


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## Short Fuse (Aug 22, 2012)

RyleyinSTL said:


> I did not - I'd guess the IsoSpeed system would have less vertical deflection with the aluminium. That said, aluminium isn't necessarily less forgiving than carbon, it's all about how the 2 materials are used, prepared, etc. The thing with carbon, if so designed, is that you can get the bike to give vertically without giving horizontally, it is harder to do that as drastically with aluminium.
> 
> Ride both bikes back to back over broken pavement and you'll get a clear answer.


Thanks. I saw the modest price difference between the aluminum Domane 2 series and the carbon 4 series and was curious about ride characteristics. Looks like a visit to the Trek dealer is in order.


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

The whole endurance vs. race thing is marketing-driven BS. Pick your price point, ride everything that hits it, and pick the one that feels right from the shop that feels right. Same as always.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

wooglin said:


> The whole endurance vs. race thing is marketing-driven BS.


Since a bikes geo dictates handling and (to some extent) ride, the numbers don't bear this out. 

For example, generally speaking, when compared to race geo, relaxed geo bikes have slacker HT angles, larger fork rakes and longer chainstays, resulting in both more trail and a stretched wheelbase. Most run larger tires. The net result of these changes being somewhat slower (more predictable) steering and a smoother ride. 

More dramatic examples of geo changes and their influences on a bikes intended uses/ handling characteristics can be seen in hybrids, tourers... lots of examples. 

So, not market-driven BS. More, 'tweaks' to a bikes geo to better suite its intended uses. ATMO.


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

PJ352 said:


> Since a bikes geo dictates handling and (to some extent) ride, the numbers don't bear this out.
> 
> For example, generally speaking, when compared to race geo, relaxed geo bikes have slacker HT angles, larger fork rakes and longer chainstays, resulting in both more trail and a stretched wheelbase. Most run larger tires. The net result of these changes being somewhat slower (more predictable) steering and a smoother ride.
> 
> ...


While I agree with all that you say, one bike will always feel/fit better than another, marketing semantics aside, and that's the one to buy. ATMO


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## MPov (Oct 22, 2010)

Wow, I just did my first century, on a Madone 5.2. Wish I had known I was using the wrong bike. I wouldn't have even tried it.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

wooglin said:


> ... one bike will always feel/fit better than another... and that's the one to buy.


:thumbsup:


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Short Fuse said:


> RyleyinSTL,
> Did you happen to try out the aluminum  Domane 2 series? I am wondering if the IsoSpeed features would be of even more benefit with the less forgiving frame material. Thanks.


I've ridden the 2.3, 4.5 and bought the 5.2 Domane. The 2.3 is a very nice bike, very comfortable but a few lbs heavier than the 4.5. The carbon 4.5 is smoother than the 2.3 model. For the Money the 2.3 is a very nice bike from my very limited experience, I would recommend trying it out. The shop let me take it out for a couple hours to make sure I had a chance to get a good feel for it.


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## Short Fuse (Aug 22, 2012)

Srode said:


> I've ridden the 2.3, 4.5 and bought the 5.2 Domane. The 2.3 is a very nice bike, very comfortable but a few lbs heavier than the 4.5. The carbon 4.5 is smoother than the 2.3 model. For the Money the 2.3 is a very nice bike from my very limited experience, I would recommend trying it out. The shop let me take it out for a couple hours to make sure I had a chance to get a good feel for it.


Thanks for the info. The 2.3 does indeed seem to be a good bike for me....I am just afraid I may regret not paying a little more for the carbon 4.5. The roads I ride are pretty rough.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Try both, the 4.5 is another $900 for the carbon fiber and essentially the same components if I remember correctly. The colors on the 2.3 are a little nicer IMHO for what ever that is worth.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

There will absolutely be a difference in your price point in feel, but not so much in quality of frame and components. Don't get sucked into a "good deal" if the bike doesn't feel good or if it only feels so so.

The endurance/relaxed geo bikes will absolutely feel different than the more traditional or race geometry, but one won't necessarily be more comfortable than the other. And, race or endurance geometry in one brand will be different than another. A trek may suit you fine but your in LA, I would imagine you have other options so go to different LBS's and try different brands rather than limiting your self to a shop with just one brand.


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

BostonG said:


> There will absolutely be a difference in your price point in feel, but not so much in quality of frame and components. Don't get sucked into a "good deal" if the bike doesn't feel good or if it only feels so so.
> 
> The endurance/relaxed geo bikes will absolutely feel different than the more traditional or race geometry, but one won't necessarily be more comfortable than the other. And, race or endurance geometry in one brand will be different than another. A trek may suit you fine but your in LA, I would imagine you have other options so go to different LBS's and try different brands rather than limiting your self to a shop with just one brand.



thanks for the advice, my local bike shop is the only one willing to hook me up with 25% off any 2013 bikes so thats why im kinda stuck with trek. even though im going to try out my other options i have a feeling that getting that discount is gonna get me more bang for my buck and from the research im doing. it seems that the treks have better components than the specialized

Unless im just flat out wrong which is very possible because im out of my element on this one ive been building my own bmx bikes for years, spending a couple thousand on em with sponsor discounts and now i feel like ive never ridden a bike in my life haha. i dont know which parts to look for on a bike whats good or bad or better or worse nothing but if you happen to take a look at the trek an specialized website im currently looking at 

the trek madone 2.1 the domane 2.3 (the madone 2.3 seems like a rip off) 
the madone 3.1 seems to have made a compromise of a carbon frame and not as good components 

and out of the specialized pretty much the whole allez line the allez elite mid compact
the allez comp mid compact, and the allez comp apex mid compact ( so confusing)
and the tarmac mid compact 
and the roubaix elite compact

so if you or anyone has any experience with these lines please lemme know because i have the money but i just cannot make this kind of investment without getting as much input as possible even if that means nagging people with all kinds of questions haha


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## LatifB (Sep 6, 2012)

As far as Specialized goes, the Secteur is an aluminum version of the Roubaix comfort geometry and the Allez is the aluminum version of the Tarmac race geometry. I tested on a Roubaix and ordered my Secteur, same size, and the fit was the same. Three weeks riding every day and the comfort geo is great for this old guy. You can always reverse the stem and take out spacers if you want a racier fit. 25% off a 2013 Trek would be very tempting but only if you get a good fit. I wouldn't force myself into a lousy fit to save some bucks.


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

cyanca said:


> thanks for the advice, my local bike shop is the only one willing to hook me up with 25% off any 2013 bikes so thats why im kinda stuck with trek. even though im going to try out my other options i have a feeling that getting that discount is gonna get me more bang for my buck and from the research im doing. it seems that the treks have better components than the specialized
> 
> Unless im just flat out wrong which is very possible because im out of my element on this one ive been building my own bmx bikes for years, spending a couple thousand on em with sponsor discounts and now i feel like ive never ridden a bike in my life haha. i dont know which parts to look for on a bike whats good or bad or better or worse nothing but if you happen to take a look at the trek an specialized website im currently looking at
> 
> ...


Or, you could get a '12 on sale in a different, and perhaps better for you, brand.

Just got a Pinarello Quattro '12 at a good discount. Ordered straight from the distributer through a LBS, so not test-ridden to death. Brand new and a perfect fit.

The Specialized race frameset is better quality than the equivalent endurance frameset (I've been told). I notice you have the roubaix and tarmac in there. Which is most comfortable for you? The roubaix is more upright. The Tarmac is their race geometry. You need to figure out which works better for you.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

I haven't read the whole thread, but....

A couple of years ago I switched from a pretty racy frame (Cannondale CAAD7) to a more relaxed frame (Felt Z). I feel I'm actually faster on the Z. Then again, I did have the Cannondale fitted as close as I could to what I ended up with on the Z, so there's little positional difference, but significant comfort diifference.

For a recreational rider, either "type" of frame will probably be able to be fitted to you and probably will serve you very well. I believe someone said, don't over think it. It's your first bike and you really don't know what's "perfect" until you ride a lot and probably either will work great.

That said, I believe I saw somewhere that OP was considering a Trek 2.1 or something like that.

I rented a Trek 2.1 last summer. If I'm not mistaken the 2 series has an "H2" fit. I'm not a big Trek fan in general, but this H2 fit is an excellent geometry, imho. It is not full on racing, and is not full on "comfort".... a good riding bike, I thought.


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

Camilo said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but....
> 
> A couple of years ago I switched from a pretty racy frame (Cannondale CAAD7) to a more relaxed frame (Felt Z). I feel I'm actually faster on the Z. Then again, I did have the Cannondale fitted as close as I could to what I ended up with on the Z, so there's little positional difference, but significant comfort diifference.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input im looking into the trek 2.1 But after a trip to the bike shop today my lbs, the trek dealer, I checked out there madone 3.1, Which has a carbon frame but sram cranks an front derailer, which is a step down from the components on the 2.1 but the frame is a step up (you see my issue) 

each has their ups an downs. I also really like their h2 fit on the madones, I found it very comfortable as well. My friend there kind of turned me away from the domanes, and i do understand that saving some money is not as important as getting a good fit, and i will not sacrifice a good fit to save any money.

 My bike shop is going to do all the fitting they are honest an wont sell me on anything that doesnt fit me perfectly which is another reason why i want to go with a trek (even though they stand by trek as the best out there which i dont neccesarily agree with) But today i got to test ride a madone 4.5 it was a little big so i couldnt get a good idea. 

But i really liked it, it has better components then any of the others i looked at. Including a better quality carbon frame, ultegra shifters, derailers all that stuff an has a better bottom bracket and better wheels. Retail on that bike is 2700$ but i could have it out the door for 2,000$ i really didnt wanna spend more then 1500$ whether it be trek or any brand the only difference was that with trek id be getting a 2,000 dollar bike for 1500 and the other bikes id be paying retail. But ill do some more shopping around check out some specialized, cannondales, an fujis if none of them grab me like the 3.1 or 4.5 did for my budget then trek it is!


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Interesting your friend turned you away from the Domane, curious why?


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

Srode said:


> Interesting your friend turned you away from the Domane, curious why?


Its my friend at my lbs the trek dealer an he said for our area the bikes I'm lookin at would better suit me an that the domanes are generally heavier with a stiffer front end 
, an with all the hills around here an tight nit turns the shorter wheel base is better for me but I was lookin at the 2.3


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cyanca said:


> Its my friend at my lbs the trek dealer an he said for our area the bikes I'm lookin at would better suit me an that the domanes are generally heavier with a stiffer front end
> , an with all the hills around here an tight nit turns the shorter wheel base is better for me but I was lookin at the 2.3


Nothing against your friend, but I'd take that advice with a grain of salt. I highly doubt Domanes have stiffer front ends than some of the bikes you're looking at, and a tighter wheelbase is just a part of what dictates a bikes handling.

Re: climbing/ hills, matching gearing with your fitness and the terrain is what matters, not the model bike. Most shops will do n/c cassette swaps to accommodate your needs. 

Go test ride some bikes and decide based on what fits/ feels the best _to you_.


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> Nothing against your friend, but I'd take that advice with a grain of salt. I highly doubt Domanes have stiffer front ends than some of the bikes you're looking at, and a tighter wheelbase is just a part of what dictates a bikes handling.
> 
> Re: climbing/ hills, matching gearing with your fitness and the terrain is what matters, not the model bike. Most shops will do n/c cassette swaps to accommodate your needs.
> 
> Go test ride some bikes and decide based on what fits/ feels the best _to you_.


you dont think that the correct gearing with a competitive geo would better suit climbing hills, and i dont remember exactly what he said but he did use some technical terms to support the stiffer front end thing im not sure if it was different parts or what but i was standing there with the madone 3.1 and 4.5 which are carbon fiber and the domane is aluminum so i figured itd be stiffer. 
and thats what ive been doing i like the shorter wheel base and the quicker handling but i wasnt on a 50 mile ride either it was a little test ride but the smoother shifting of the 4.5 was really a step up i felt from the 2.1 and 3.1 that i rode it just felt all around better


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cyanca said:


> you dont think that the correct gearing with a competitive geo would better suit climbing hills, and i dont remember exactly what he said but he did use some technical terms to support the stiffer front end thing im not sure if it was different parts or what but i was standing there with the madone 3.1 and 4.5 which are carbon fiber and the domane is aluminum so i figured itd be stiffer.
> and thats what ive been doing i like the shorter wheel base and the quicker handling but i wasnt on a 50 mile ride either it was a little test ride but the smoother shifting of the 4.5 was really a step up i felt from the 2.1 and 3.1 that i rode it just felt all around better


I wouldn't correlate gearing with a bikes geo. You can have a race bike with lower gearing than an endurance bike - they're separate and distinct. 

Which geo (between race and relaxed) 'climbs better' is arguable. IMO it comes down to strength to weight ratios - the lighter, stronger rider on the lighter bike will be the better climber.

Same goes for frame materials. Stiffness is determined by design, not the material used.

The bottom line is to get the bike that fits well, is geared to meet your needs and rides/ handles the way you like. If that's the 4.5, get it!!


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

If you are leaning toward a Trek - why not test ride the Madone and the Domane back to back, say 5 or 10 miles each on the same course - mix up some tight turns, big hills and rough pavement if you can and decide for yourself which you like the best. Of course, a big hill today will seem not so big after a year of riding...... I know they look much smaller now than when I got into riding mid June. When you are done test riding the Treks and know which one you like the best, go ride the other bikes you are considering.


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## novetan (Oct 4, 2012)

Tks for info


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