# Alum vs Carbon wheels



## jowees (Apr 12, 2012)

Considering to upgrade my carbon road bike from alum wheels to carbon. 5.0 clinchers seems like a 'safe bet'. Just wondering how much smoother/faster are the carbon wheels? Can anyone explain the difference or what to expect? Either in speed/watts/time on a set distance. Thanks.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

jowees said:


> ...Just wondering how much smoother/faster are the carbon wheels? ....


Carbon basically buys you aero-ness. If you ride fast, like 20+mph, it'll save you a few watts. Other benefits are mostly illusory, IMO.


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

What are your goals? What do you hope to gain with the 'upgrade'?

Are you racing on these or training on them? Want to save wait? Go faster? Eye candy?


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## lawrence (May 17, 2005)

Smoother ride but you can go tubeless with aluminum and get more benefits.


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## bikerjohn64 (Feb 9, 2012)

Straight on difference? Slipperiness. 

It's the first thing I noticed when I got my 303/404 combo on my bike. 

Another analogy might be if you ski; it's like getting your skis waxed. 

I do think that they have added perhaps a 1km/h to my speed average. 

If you the feel of your skis when waxed; then you will like them!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

lawrence said:


> Smoother ride but you can go tubeless with aluminum and get more benefits.


how would a deeper section carbon rim offer a better ride than an alloy rim? just wondering how you came up w/ this idea. :skep:


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## lawrence (May 17, 2005)

Absorbs vibrations better, aluminum transmits them, less with aluminum if you have kevlar or carbon or some such spokes.



cxwrench said:


> how would a deeper section carbon rim offer a better ride than an alloy rim? just wondering how you came up w/ this idea. :skep:


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

The two sets of deep section carbon clinchers I have both ride a little harsher than my aluminium wheels. The rims are stiff, which makes for a good strong wheel, but also means that you feel the road a little more. I have not felt the reduction in vibration mentioned above.

Before you buy carbon wheels be aware of the braking problems. I do a lot of steep technical descents, often in the wet. Carbon clinchers can have problems in either situation. Although I use carbon wheels for most races I do nearly all my training on aluminium wheels. If I wasn't racing I'd be pretty disappointed with the carbon wheels. They're just not that much faster than aluminium. It's on descents where I notice a difference, and even there it's not that big.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

lawrence said:


> Absorbs vibrations better, aluminum transmits them, less with aluminum if you have kevlar or carbon or some such spokes.


you've been drinking someone's kool-aid. big time.


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## mostoc (Apr 23, 2012)

The biggest advantage in carbon is going to be the aerodynamics and weight. Go tubeless carbons and you could save a full pound on a wheelset. There is a braking issue with carbon, especially in the rain. Carbon rims use specific brake pads and they don't respond well in wet conditions.


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## BWWpat (Dec 17, 2009)

lawrence said:


> Absorbs vibrations better, aluminum transmits them, less with aluminum if you have kevlar or carbon or some such spokes.


You have this backwards.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Thinking*



bikerjohn64 said:


> I do think that they have added perhaps a 1km/h to my speed average.


You may think that, but in reality that didn't happen. Compared to a 32 spoke box section rim, the fastest wheels on the planet will give you 0.4 mph (0.6 km/hr) at 25 mph (40 km/ hr). At 20 mph (32 km/hr) you will get 0.3 mph (0.5 km/hr). Those are the facts based on extensive tests in wind tunnels and on the road.


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## jowees (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks guys. Your input has been really helpful. I'll stick to my present aluminum wheels for now (as nothing wrong with them).


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I think that if you were willing to switch to tubys, then carbon may be worth the upgrade. It would be drastically lighter, and that coupled with the more supple ride quality of a tubulars can make them far more enjoyable than alloy clinchers.


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## [email protected] (Feb 1, 2009)

I went to 5.0 full carbon last year. Raised my ave. by .2. Not much. I would go back to dura ace tl in a heart beat. Carbon look cool and stopping is not as good.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Carbon clinchers are the Kim Kardashian of wheels. Nice looking, but overrated, overexposed, and somewhat on the heavy side.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

PaxRomana said:


> Carbon clinchers are the Kim Kardashian of wheels. Nice looking, but overrated, overexposed, and somewhat on the heavy side.


this, exactly. i don't see why so many people want carbon clinchers...they really don't make much sense. much heavier than similar tubular wheels, more sensitive to impacts than similar tubular wheels, and then there's the carbon-clincers-getting-hot-and-letting-tires-blow-off thing. just saw another one of those this weekend...


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## turbodogs02 (Oct 24, 2011)

So what about something like the Hed carbon wheel with the aluminum (or scandium) brake surface? 

Seems like the best compromise/solution....weight and aero of the carbon, still good braking characteristic of non-carbon surface.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

turbodogs02 said:


> So what about something like the Hed carbon wheel with the aluminum (or scandium) brake surface?
> 
> Seems like the best compromise/solution....weight and aero of the carbon, still good braking characteristic of non-carbon surface.


those aren't carbon rims w/ aluminum braking surfaces. they're aluminum rims w/ carbon fairings attached. the ONLY carbon rims w/ an alloy braking surface are the madfiber carbon clinchers. 
any rim that is alloy w/ a carbon aero fairing attached will be the heaviest option. a full carbon clincher will be slightly lighter, a carbon tubular will show the biggest weight difference.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

cxwrench said:


> the ONLY carbon rims w/ an alloy braking surface are the madfiber carbon clinchers.


The Madfiber clinchers do have a carbon braking surface. They have an alloy tire bed that is wrapped in carbon to hold it in place. You are still braking on a carbon surface.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

coachboyd said:


> The Madfiber clinchers do have a carbon braking surface. They have an alloy tire bed that is wrapped in carbon to hold it in place. You are still braking on a carbon surface.


dohhhh...yep, you're right!


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> the ONLY carbon rims w/ an alloy braking surface are the madfiber carbon clinchers.


Zipp still has their regular 404 clinchers which are alloy track and structural carbon. So are the Sram and Campagnolo Bullet line.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> those aren't carbon rims w/ aluminum braking surfaces. they're aluminum rims w/ carbon fairings attached. the ONLY carbon rims w/ an alloy braking surface are the madfiber carbon clinchers.
> any rim that is alloy w/ a carbon aero fairing attached will be the heaviest option. a full carbon clincher will be slightly lighter, a carbon tubular will show the biggest weight difference.


I've had the HED Jet 50s for a number of years. I think they weigh around 1650 grams. Not light but not heavy. For my purpose they are a great compromise between traditional box rims and carbon.


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## Scott in MD (Jun 24, 2008)

After three years and about 7500 miles of riding Reynolds all carbon clinchers with 23mm premium clincher tires and ultralight tubes on my road bike and my tri bike, I switched my roadie back to nice aluminum box sections and more durable 25mm tires ... and won't switch back. I now use the 32mm deep carbon with tougher tires as training wheels in my Cannondale Slice tri bike, and switch over to 46mm deep carbon with premium tires and latex tubes for races. It is really convenient to switch the triathlon bike tires over to the trainer or rough road training rides without worrying about changing or adjusting brake pads. I even appreciate the slight convenience of leaving the heavy trainer skewer in my tri-bike dedicated training rear wheel. On my Specialized Roubaix road bike, I'm now riding HED Belgiums with the wider rim profile (23mm) and 25mm tires (Roubaix Pro's). 

I think the Reynolds carbon clinchers are great hoops and super durable, and brake feel is almost as good as aluminum ....and after checking my roll-out speed (~52 MPH) on Golden Eagle Blvd hill on my regular roadie and with Garmin data and a lot of historica rides (**BUT NOT SCIENTIFICALLY CONTROLLED, AT ALL) .... I think the carbon rim w-23mm tire is a little faster than the aluminum rim-25mm tire ... in other words I buy into the conventional wisdom (ie kool aid) that deep carbon is about 1min30sec faster per 25 miles ... I just have decided it is not worth it for my road bike. Don't get me wrong .. I ride fast (**AS I CAN) but out here in hot, hilly Arizona I don't want to ever overheat a rim bed on a braking descent, and I really like to smooth feel of 25 mm rubber on the wider HED rims.


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## ESTrainSmartBlog (Feb 25, 2013)

Kerry Irons said:


> You may think that, but in reality that didn't happen. Compared to a 32 spoke box section rim, the fastest wheels on the planet will give you 0.4 mph (0.6 km/hr) at 25 mph (40 km/ hr). At 20 mph (32 km/hr) you will get 0.3 mph (0.5 km/hr). Those are the facts based on extensive tests in wind tunnels and on the road.


Any chance you still have the article showing those figures? You just sold me on getting a deep carbon wheelset. I broke away for about three laps and averaged 25.6mph, but after reviewing my ride, I found out that I needed exactly 0.4mph to stay ahead. I did this with a 19.5mm aluminum wheelset on a dead flat course.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

One thing I think people forget is there is a psychological effect when riding with newer equipment. You think you are going to go faster or climb faster and you do. That can not be replicated in a wind tunnel test that is just looking at the wheel or lighter bike its self. YMMV


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

looigi said:


> Carbon basically buys you aero-ness. If you ride fast, like 20+mph, it'll save you a few watts. Other benefits are mostly illusory, IMO.


Yep, and get knocked around more when riding in the wind, or look like you have way too much money to spend. Some people swear by their high priced Enve's and Lightweights, not sure you really get value for the money here.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I've been riding some 50mm deep CF wheels with a wide blunt inner edge, as is the current trend, and find that they are not bad at all in strong gusty crosswinds.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Carbon design will typically be more aero and lighter (a bit fast climbing and a bit faster on the flats) Your braking will suffer and expect your descending on twisty steep stuff to deteriorate quite a bit (unless you go to disc brakes). 



jowees said:


> Considering to upgrade my carbon road bike from alum wheels to carbon. 5.0 clinchers seems like a 'safe bet'. Just wondering how much smoother/faster are the carbon wheels? Can anyone explain the difference or what to expect? Either in speed/watts/time on a set distance. Thanks.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> Carbon design will typically be more aero and lighter (a bit fast climbing and a bit faster on the flats) *Your braking will suffer and expect your descending on twisty steep stuff to deteriorate quite a bit (unless you go to disc brakes)*.


Not at all true w/ current rims and brake pads.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Get real Wrench!

Unless something seriously different and better than the Zipp 303 firecrests with a handfull of the latest and "best" carbon pads have happened, it's unlikely we'll ever agree on this.

Since you included disc brakes in your highlighted text, surely you jest! We'll see how many pros show up on rim brakes once discs are approved. I don't know of anybody who has converted to hydro discs who isn't elated with the improvement. This includes 3 of my most frequent riding partners. I suppose it could happen with those who use spray lube on their chains or handle the discs with oily fingers.


cxwrench said:


> Not at all true w/ current rims and brake pads.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> I suppose it could happen with those who use spray lube on their chains or handle the discs with oily fingers.



Anti lock brakes for the rear.


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