# FACT 9r Carbon Frameset v. FACT 6r...



## LyncStar (May 1, 2005)

...anyone know the difference between these two frames? My understanding is that the stiffness is equal, the only difference (besides a massive price swing) is a few hundred (if that) grams. Any information would be helpful. I got the above info from an LBS that has an SWorks Roubaix frame for sale at $2500. The rep informed that they sell completely built FACT 6R roubaixs for $1800.


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## roubaixowner (Sep 22, 2006)

Hello,
This is my first post, i actually register to answer this question. The process for making carbon fiber is that they put layers of fiber, then glue, fiber then glue. repeated many times to take the shape and form that they decire. in this case a bike frame. The higher the 9r, 8r, 6r ... it means that they used more fiber and less glue than the lower numbered ones. the result is 9r will be stiffer than a 6r and a bit lighter. i am buying a 05 roubaix comp this weekend and it is a 6r CF Frame. i do not think that you could notice a lot of differance from 9r to 6r when you are just cruising on the flats; until you start climbing, sprinting and putting more stress on the frame. I hope that this helps, if anybody can add or correct me, feel free. BTW the new 2007 roubaix expert is a 8r and the complete bike will be going for about $2,750 and it is a very nice sexy bike, maybe the frame alone could be somewhere under 2k. good luck


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## LyncStar (May 1, 2005)

roubaixowner said:


> BTW the new 2007 roubaix expert is a 8r and the complete bike will be going for about $2,750 and it is a very nice sexy bike, maybe the frame alone could be somewhere under 2k. good luck


I wonder if this will make for a harsher ride, the new 8r? By the way, just saw an '05 roubaix 6r frame go for a little less than $800 on ebay and an '06 9r Roubaix Sworks go for a little less than $1200.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

if it's stiffer (i.e. 10r instead of 6r) then it should be a less harsher, more smoother and comfortable ride, no?


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## LyncStar (May 1, 2005)

rkdvsm said:


> if it's stiffer (i.e. 10r instead of 6r) then it should be a less harsher, more smoother and comfortable ride, no?


I don't think so. My understanding is that the stiffer the frame the more responsive it is (ie. transfer more of your energy into forward motion) but also the more it transfers to you the vagaries of the road (ie. a harsher ride). Maybe that calculus doesn't apply to carbon fiber??? Thoughts??


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## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

LyncStar said:


> I don't think so. My understanding is that the stiffer the frame the more responsive it is (ie. transfer more of your energy into forward motion) but also the more it transfers to you the vagaries of the road (ie. a harsher ride). Maybe that calculus doesn't apply to carbon fiber??? Thoughts??


Ok, I hate to be the smarty pants here, but I think this is why they have such a forum - to get accurate info to the people.

First, there was no 06' 9r carbon Tarmac. The only 9r bike for 06 was the SW Roubaix; the "regular" SW Tarmac was 8r and the Tarmac SL was/is 10r. There is a substantial difference in the stiffness of the 8/9r bikes and the 6r. That also has nothing to do with the ride characteristics of the bikes, nor does it necessarily mean that they use less glue in the molding process. The number is Specialized's way of indicating the grade of carbon used. The higher the grade, the lighter & more expensive the fiber, the more can be used (if needed), the stronger the carbon sheet, thus the ability to produce a stiffer, lighter frame.

Carbon gives the designer the ability to place strength where it is needed without sacrificing the ride. SBC claims their new 10r SW Roubaix SL is their most vertically compliant carbon bike and their best riding. I have ridden it, and it is exceptionally comfortable. My personal bike is a Tarmac SL and it rides awesomely as well, while being one of the stiffer bikes on the market.

Cheers


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

Do you see the technology behind the SW bikes gettting any better in the next few years? I know that it always does, but it seems like Specialized has hit their peak with this!


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## LyncStar (May 1, 2005)

critchie said:


> Ok, I hate to be the smarty pants here, but I think this is why they have such a forum - to get accurate info to the people.
> 
> First, there was no 06' 9r carbon Tarmac. The only 9r bike for 06 was the SW Roubaix; the "regular" SW Tarmac was 8r and the Tarmac SL was/is 10r. There is a substantial difference in the stiffness of the 8/9r bikes and the 6r. That also has nothing to do with the ride characteristics of the bikes, nor does it necessarily mean that they use less glue in the molding process. The number is Specialized's way of indicating the grade of carbon used. The higher the grade, the lighter & more expensive the fiber, the more can be used (if needed), the stronger the carbon sheet, thus the ability to produce a stiffer, lighter frame.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Thus, a 9r frame compared to a 6r frame would be lighter (any idea how much lighter in a size 54?), and it would be stiffer. But the fact that it is stiffer, does not mean it has any less of a supple, take the harshness out of potholes, ripple strips ride. One of the problems with understanding this all is the language we are using and what it means to different people. When I think of a "stiffer" bike it leads be to believe that it also provides a harsher ride. What you are saying is that isn't an accurate way to think about it. Thoughts? Comments?


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## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

rkdvsm said:


> Do you see the technology behind the SW bikes gettting any better in the next few years? I know that it always does, but it seems like Specialized has hit their peak with this!


Yes, I would think so. They are constantly looking at ways to improve the process, still better grades of carbon fiber are available and they haven't even scratched the nanotube surface. I highly doubt that the S boys have hit a threshold.


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## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

LyncStar said:


> Thanks for the info. Thus, a 9r frame compared to a 6r frame would be lighter (any idea how much lighter in a size 54?), and it would be stiffer. But the fact that it is stiffer, does not mean it has any less of a supple, take the harshness out of potholes, ripple strips ride. One of the problems with understanding this all is the language we are using and what it means to different people. When I think of a "stiffer" bike it leads be to believe that it also provides a harsher ride. What you are saying is that isn't an accurate way to think about it. Thoughts? Comments?


 
The correct way to look at stiffness is what is the BB stiffness, the torsional stiffness and the vertical compliance (or stiffness). This last factor is the one that gives an idea of the suppleness of the ride. The BB stiffness is just what you would think, how "hard" is it to flex the BB. The torsional stiffness refers to the flex of the frame across its length (for my lack of a better term) from headtube to rear dropouts -- how does the bike track when laid over in a corner. If the bike feels like it wants to go different ways in the front and back, it is not very torsionally stiff.

Other factors are also at work, the fork stiffness for example. SBC has a great resource that you can pick up at your local S dealer -- the FACT brochure. This is a 24pg document that provides some insightful facts and compares the three stiffnesses (yeah, not a word) I mentioned above for various manufacturer's bikes. This is an SBC marketing document, but I have found their claims to proven by empirical testing. They even finish second to another brands bike in a couple of tests, but they will give you the whole story.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

critchie said:


> Yes, I would think so. They are constantly looking at ways to improve the process, still better grades of carbon fiber are available and they haven't even scratched the nanotube surface. I highly doubt that the S boys have hit a threshold.


Ohh...I would venture to guess that next year's Specialized bikes will use nanotube technology. This is what the BMC bikes have right now, I believe.


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