# Titanium Frame : Pasonni Top Evolution vs. MOOTS Vamoots vs. Kent Eriksen classic



## lanlan (Feb 15, 2009)

I want to buy a Titanium Frame.
Now, I limit my selection to Passoni Top Evolution & MOOTS Vamoots & Kent Eriksen classic.

http://www.passoni.com/
http://www.moots.com/
http://www.kenteriksen.com/

Do you have any suggestion to me?
Thanks.


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## HazemBata (May 20, 2004)

I have never ridden any of them. But i just want to point out that Kent Eriksen founded Moots, then later sold it. The Moots and Eriksen will be similar frames.

Good luck....and post pics when you get your frame.


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Why of course, the Eriksen (too bad he spells his name wrong).


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

lanlan said:


> ....Now, I limit my selection to Pasonni Top Evolution & MOOTS Vamoots & Kent Eriksen classic..........


You'll be the only kid on the block with a Pasonni Top Evolution should you buy that one.

In fact, you may be one of the few kids anywhere who has ever heard of a Pasonni Top Evolution.

This kid has never heard of them and an online seach doesn't give me any info either.


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## Brimanndude (Aug 15, 2008)

Never heard of a Pasonni. I was wondering the same thing between the Moots and a Eriksen. I am also looking into a Seven Axiom Race or a Guru Praemio. Does anyone have any of these? Thanks,

Bri


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

Look for _Passoni_ vice Pasonni.


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## rePhil (Jun 20, 2002)

I can only speak about Moots. I will never willingly part with mine. It has cured my bike lust.


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## tyro (May 15, 2005)

I have an Ericken 29er mtb. I really don't see how you could go wrong with an Eriksen. Kent and Katie are an absolute pleasure to deal with in every way. Everything about the bike is top notch, from the ride and feel all the way to the welds and cosmetics. Two big thumbs up from me. I'm thinking of an Eriksen for my wife and for me next!


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

MOOTS. It will be the last bike you ever buy.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I think the Passoni would be an interesting choice, but it's an Italian firm and it's not clear to me how you'd even go about ordering one. Have you looked into that?

Moots and Eriksen - two excellent choices, here in the US (this is only important if you are in the US), excellent bikes and great service.

I have two Moots - fantastic bikes. I'd buy an Eriksen too if I was in the market, I like his vibe. I'd go with one of those two, but again, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a US consumer with those two builders just up the road.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Mootsie said:


> MOOTS. It will be the last bike you ever buy.


My second Moots was 3 bikes ago.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

If you live in Italy get a MOOTS. If you live outside of Italy get a PASSONI.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

terry b said:


> My second Moots was 3 bikes ago.


A clear sign of obsessive compulsive disorder. :thumbsup:


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Moots (& now Erikson) is a cult.

It's a cult because (as near as I can tell) there are very few unsatisfied owners. I suspect you couldn't go wrong with either. Moots has all the internal processes down, Erikson has the original founder and heart of Moots running it.

After teh NAHBS, I'd be very comfortable with the Erikson.

Len


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## haydos (Sep 17, 2007)

Moots/Eriksen have never really pushed the boundaries of frame construction / weight. They simply make beautiful frames - exquisite welds etc. They are not the lightest, not butted, not tube shaped etc...low on tech, but very high quality.

An av size moots compact is around 1400-1500g frame only if not more.

Not a big deal if you want a nice ride for a long time - but something to consider if your planning on racing them.

Passoni I can't help you with.

I would consider a Baum from Australia - the exchange rate is in your favour and they are as beautiful as anything I have seen - and you can paint em if you want.

Outside of them, Carl Strong makes great rides.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

this may help 

http://www.moots.com/#/why_ti/


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

Well,
Moots are great bikes but this Passoni XXti is BANGING!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

merckxman said:


> If you live in Italy get a MOOTS. If you live outside of Italy get a PASSONI.




true... the novelty of foreign is alive on both sides of the pond


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

haydos said:


> Moots/Eriksen have never really pushed the boundaries of frame construction / weight. They simply make beautiful frames - exquisite welds etc. They are not the lightest, not butted, not tube shaped etc...low on tech, but very high quality.
> 
> An av size moots compact is around 1400-1500g frame only if not more.
> 
> ...



Eriksen doesn't do butted either? Moots- I did know about. Still, a Moots is an ultimate dream bike for me. Do you know if Strong builds with butted tubes?


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

I went through the same selection process and ended up with a Lynskey. Very happy but would have been just as happy with the Moots. Both great bikes.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

I am extremely biased but.............


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Butted = +$400


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Lazyrider said:


> Well,
> Moots are great bikes but this Passoni XXti is BANGING!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh my.

I, uh... will be back in a few minutes.


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## haydos (Sep 17, 2007)

Ride-Fly said:


> Eriksen doesn't do butted either? Moots- I did know about. Still, a Moots is an ultimate dream bike for me. Do you know if Strong builds with butted tubes?


Yeah Carl can.


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

Kent Eriksen classic


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## ringroadwarrior (Dec 8, 2002)

*I have a friend with a Lynskey Helix*

Very nice, beautiful frame.I have ridden it and it rides super nice as well.


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## dnalsaam (Dec 6, 2004)

If you haven't seen a Passoni, you can see one for sale on ebay here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320418525465

or you can see a Passoni titanium fork for sale here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120506228923

I own a Passoni and I truly do love the ride.


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## DI75 (Oct 6, 2007)

If it wasn't for the fact that I love my Lynsky, I would go with the Moots.


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## DannyBoy (Feb 19, 2004)

*Do take a good look at Baum.*

Phil Liggett owns one!!! Like your other Italian suggestion why not own something a bit more originl. I like 'em.

http://www.baumcycles.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/baumcycles/


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

There is a lot of good Ti builders out there, but I believe the best bets are Moots or Lynskey. I view these as the leaders in Ti today, with Lynskey always pushing forward with creative ideas in design and construction, and Moots with that age old quality that continues to elude the other builders - with the possible exception of Eriksen.


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## mriddle (Nov 16, 2005)

*Take a look at the current issue of RIDE magazine (#46)*

They do the best bike reviews of anyone. They have a Moots cross bike and a Passoni XXTI in their review section.

Their verdict was that the weld quality and craftsmanship of the Moots was beyond anything the Passoni could compare with.

They also reviewed a Baum in #45 (I think) and gave it a perfect score.

Good luck.


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Not sure what you mean by original. Do you mean novel, as in not everyone has heard of them or has one? Because I see nothing really original about the Baum's. Very beautiful but also very traditional construction. Put a nude Moots and a nude Baum frame side by side and most people couldn't tell them apart and Moots is one of the most traditional and conservative Ti builders around.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

mriddle said:


> They also reviewed a Baum in #45 (I think) and gave it a perfect score.
> 
> Good luck.


Isn't it a shooting offence to say anything different about Baum in the Oz press?


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## DannyBoy (Feb 19, 2004)

Yes, I mean uncommon and novel rather than original, as you point out there ain't too much originality in bike design these days - give or take the odd tweak I guess. Me, I like colour, hence the BaumLove. Naked Ti is dull to me - to others the opposite!


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## poff (Jul 21, 2007)

Moots has a new lineup now. RSL is top of the line model now and it has butted tubes, 6/4 rear triangle, and BB30. I can be easily built into sub 15lb machine.


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## mendo (Apr 18, 2007)

I have a feeling that a Passoni frame will be ungodly expensive, given the exclusivity factor and the current exchange rates, so that might be the deciding factor.

I wonder if anyone knows how much these things cost.

I did find a 20th anniversary complete build for $30K.


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## sarion (Mar 29, 2005)

I am in Taiwan, the Passoni dealer asks about USD $7300 ~7500 for a Passoni frameset.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*A twist with a CRISP*

American Ti framebuilder living and working in Tuscany:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/darren-crisp-american-ti-framebuilder.html


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## st3v3 (Jul 25, 2009)

Those Baums are gorgeous. But that Passoni..... win. Just win.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

Serotta...

http://www.serotta.com/legend/index.html


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## The Green Hour (Jul 15, 2008)

merckxman said:


> American Ti framebuilder living and working in Tuscany:
> http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/darren-crisp-american-ti-framebuilder.html


Ditto...:thumbsup: 

He used to post from time to time on the "Frameforum" site. I like the looks of his work.


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## Tinea Pedis (Aug 14, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> Isn't it a shooting offence to say anything different about Baum in the Oz press?


Or maybe he just makes really top of the line stuff that is hard to fault.

No one else welds aside from Darren. That's some pretty strict quality control right there if you ask me.

Not saying mistakes are not sometimes made, but with Baum it seems that you pay for quality and that's exactly what you get.



ymmv of course and you may infer reviews a little differently...


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Add'l PASSONI photos at ICJ:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/10/passoni.html
and
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/10/passonimore.html


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## D-Town (Aug 22, 2004)

*+1*



Picshooter said:


> I can only speak about Moots. I will never willingly part with mine. It has cured my bike lust.


I can only speak about Moots too, and it has cured any bike lust for me as well. 

I can't speak to your preferences/tastes and I'll note that my frame is slightly custom, but having ridden one for the past 3 years and having toured the Moots factory I can't cite a reason I'd choose another builder if I could do it over again.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

if it was me - it depends on where i live - for best before and after sales support.

if I were living in USA/Canada then I would buy the US-made Ti/steel/carbon such as Moots, Serotta, Lynskey, IF, etc.

Since I live in Australia and so I bought a Baum Ti custom 

if lived in Europe then I would try one of their brands like Passoni, etc

if I lived elsewhere then i would look at the local market and see what is well supported in case you need to claim on warranty.


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## DannyBoy (Feb 19, 2004)

acid_rider said:


> if it was me - it depends on where i live - for best before and after sales support.
> 
> if I were living in USA/Canada then I would buy the US-made Ti/steel/carbon such as Moots, Serotta, Lynskey, IF, etc.
> 
> ...


Ah, same time zone as me eh (NZ)? I love Baum, lets see yours ASAP.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*its there*



DannyBoy said:


> Ah, same time zone as me eh (NZ)? I love Baum, lets see yours ASAP.


In this case check out the Corretto Ti in orange colour on Baumcycles.com web site, same deal except my bicycle is a Romano Ti but looks the same as on photo and costs ~AUS$1200 less since Romano Ti uses straight gauge tubing unlike Corretto Ti with butted tubing and this saves ~250grams of static non-rotational weight. I actually prefer straight gauge Ti tubing - I think it suits the Ti ride characteristics perfectly and is stronger than butted tubing in an unfortunate event of a crash/fall. You wont notice the extra 250 grams of static weight. The Ti ride is smooth and sublime.


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## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

IF or Moots or Erikson

Hell .... Strong.


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## Tinea Pedis (Aug 14, 2009)

acid_rider said:


> if it was me - it depends on where i live - for best before and after sales support.
> 
> if I were living in USA/Canada then I would buy the US-made Ti/steel/carbon such as Moots, Serotta, Lynskey, IF, etc.
> 
> ...


Why would you not still consider Baum if you lived in Europe??


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## Topher (Jun 5, 2005)

If I were going to get a Passoni it would be the XXTi. That is a dream bike. Otherwise, I'd go with Moots.


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

merckxman said:


> American Ti framebuilder living and working in Tuscany:
> http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/darren-crisp-american-ti-framebuilder.html



I was going to suggest the same.
http://www.crisptitanium.com/bye.htm


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*too many things to go wrong*



Tinea Pedis said:


> Why would you not still consider Baum if you lived in Europe??


the reasons I would buy an either an off-the-shelf Ti/steel or a locally-made custom Ti/steel if I lived in Europe/USA are:

getting the right frame geometry "remotely", the time zones, the sending/receiving/building hassles, any warranty issues that require frames to be stripped/shipped to/from Australia etc. Same applies if I live in Australia - off-the-shelf ready made product is OK from remote locations but custom jobs would make me prefer a local i.e. Baum, product. Easier to deal with, that is all.

it is just less work to buy a locally made product. I think Baum makes as good Ti or steel custom road frames as anyone else anywhere (I am biased, I own a Baum Ti) but unless you are going to be coming to Australia (holidays?) to get fitted for one I reckon it would be easier to buy something closer to your home.

I am assuming you know your ideal frame geometry too, else it's a major risk ordering a custom bike from any maker.

Perhaps I am just too conservative and risk averse! 8^)

BTW, IMHO - I dont get the point of buying a steel or Ti road frame (from any maker) mixed with carbon tubes in it - like a Passoni XXti, for example, with carbon seat-tube. Seems utterly pointless to mix steel/Ti with carbon - if you want a Ti or steel road bike then get a steel or Ti bike and enjoy the purity of purpose. If you want a carbon bike - get one. But Ti + carbon or steel + carbon tubes? I don't see any point in that - carbon tube wont contribute anything significant to Ti or steel frame, apart from adding brittleness to it - a sideways whack on a carbon tube and the whole frame is history or at least in for a major expensive repair. You might as well get the complete carbon frame in that case. Sorry, a bit off-topic.


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## Tinea Pedis (Aug 14, 2009)

What about if there were a remote and authorised fitter? Agreed that doing it electronically would be a hassle, but should a custom company have stores that they trusted to measure you to their standards I think that would still make them a viable option - i know Serotta does this in Australia already. Not sure about others like Lynskey, Crumpton, Cyfac, etc....

Oh and as for the OT, there's also a fair proportion of stuff out there in cycling that is market driven, this could very well be another (albeit very good looking) version of....:wink5:


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*yes*



Tinea Pedis said:


> What about if there were a remote and authorised fitter? Agreed that doing it electronically would be a hassle, but should a custom company have stores that they trusted to measure you to their standards I think that would still make them a viable option - i know Serotta does this in Australia already. Not sure about others like Lynskey, Crumpton, Cyfac, etc....


yes, this would work, and in fact if Baum was not an option for me (for whatever the reason) then I was looking at 2010 Ti bikes from Serotta, Lynskey, Moots, Seven, etc via an Australian shop and delivered in Australia - either in off-the-shelf size or custom. 

Choosing between European and USA made Ti road frames - that is hard. I have seen some evidence on cycling forums that in general USA makes the best Ti road bicycles but that is just my experience. Not sure about steel road bicycles though.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

FTR said:


> I am extremely biased but.............






FTR man!
What a beautiful picture. Looks like paradise. Cool mtns. And a city in the distance. What part of the world are you in?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

rook said:


> FTR man!
> What a beautiful picture. Looks like paradise. Cool mtns. And a city in the distance. What part of the world are you in?


Brisbane QLD Australia
That spot is less than 10km from my house and has 2 x 20% gradients on the way to get there.


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

I have a Seven Axiom (vintage '99) which was made to my tastes so I'm biased. I also have a Lemond Ti which is off the rack, but it rides well too. In steel I have a Serotta Davis Phinney, which is an off the rack, but served as the basis for the Axiom. When I had the Axiom made I knew how I wanted the bike to ride. I didn't want a builder's interpretation of how they wanted they bike to ride for me. Serotta might have done that for me, but they wanted a Brink's truck full of money to do it. Seven was more reasonable and more importantly, they did it and did it well.

Carl Strong would do that too. I know people who have worked with Carl and came away very happy. Possibly IF would, I don't know the folks at IF. 

There is something I was scratching my head about this last weekend. We had a Bike Swap this last Saturday. In the bike corral there were 3 Sevens for sale. I'd like to know why the owners were parting with them. Did they not like the ride? Are they in financial straits? I don't know...


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## cicquetto (Nov 7, 2009)

eriksen frames are personally made by kent?


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## HMBAtrail (Jan 8, 2008)

tyro said:


> Two big thumbs up from me.


I love the irony of this seeing as how Kent could only give himself one and 2/3rds of a thumbs up for anything!  Last year I spent a few hours in Kent's shop (the old Moots shop) and I really enjoyed myself. Four or five folks working away shoulder to shoulder and banging out some awfully good looking bikes. I have a few of Kent's seatposts.

I would also look toward Bozeman, MT and Carl Strong for a Ti frame.

Let's be honest here kids, at this level of bike production there is no wrong answer. Buy the one that you like best even if you can't quantify why you like it best. Hell, flip a coin and let fate decide.


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## C Dunlop (Feb 28, 2009)

This is how I see it:
- Moots: Lovely, maybe a little 'dentisty'
- Eriksen: Just as lovely, with an air of exclusivity and connisuerism (ie smaller factory)
- Lynskey: I have one. On balance they are better value, they have more options (BB30, tapered HT, shimano pressfit) and can do more than anyone in terms of custom. Probably not as nice aesthetically and perhaps a little 'cookie cutter'
- Baum: Nice, classic paint. Can be made very light. Insanely expensive. Welding not as nice as others (from what I have seen, it all seems perfectly fine, just not as flawless as a Moots, Eriksen or even my Lynskey. 
- Passoni: Just looks tacky to me. Both in pictures and real life.

I am on a limited budget, I have a lynskey. If I was in your situation, I would get an Eriksen. They are all fantastic bikes. I just think that the Passoni is gawdy. If you want gawdy and expensive get a pinarello prince or something.


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## cicquetto (Nov 7, 2009)

eriksen frames are personally made by kent?


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## HMBAtrail (Jan 8, 2008)

My suspicion is that Eriksen's shop is one that everyone does a little bit of everything. That said, I believe Kent handles design, tube selection, mitering, prep, assembly, sub-assembly, etc. He has a fella in the shop (whose name now escapes me) who was doing the welding when I was there. How much actual welding Kent does I have no earthly idea. But, if your question is if Eriksen subs out the welding duties to another company, the answer is no.


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