# STRONGEST SPOKE PATTERN? and number of spokes?



## thedips (Mar 26, 2007)

ok it was just my assumption that more the pokes the stronger..... a buddy of mine informed me that was not the case.... and that a 32 spoke wheel laced up in a certain pattern is stronger than a 36? or even a 40?

can someone please inform me on wheel building strength... 
also which spokes shape brand etc..will make it strong as well.. and im sure brass nipples

im going for the strongest wheel i can build for a track rear... thanks..:idea:


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## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

32 3x(each spoke crosses 3 others) would probably beat a 36er spoked radially or 2x, all other things being equal. This is prolly a dumb example, as most any 36 spoker I've seen is done 3x. If you're building a track rear wheel, it's already gonna be stronger than a comparable 9 or 10 speed rear, as you don't have to dish the wheel at all to accomodate a gear cluster. 32 spokes, 3x, no dish, is plenty strong enough, assuming the wheelbuilder knows what they're doing. DT spokes, butted say 14/15 are plenty strong. I don't know about track wheels; maybe they've got special needs.


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## thedips (Mar 26, 2007)

well ok i take that back.. less track needs.. more urban abuse... commuter.. bumps.. terrain.. tricks.. anything i can throw at it.. is the need for strength..


thanks!


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Are you using Deep V's? Rims are going to be more important than whether you use 32 or 36 spokes


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## thedips (Mar 26, 2007)

rims still looking around... no i wasnt really planning on using deep vs.. but they do have that "look" to them... 

i will also take suggestions on rims and hubs while im at it... please keep price into consideration... as much as i would like a dream wheel .. a reasonably priced super strong wheel is what im going for!


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

The differences between 32-40 spoke patterns is small compared to the differences in build quality and components. I will assume for a moment that you have the quality of the build down.

36 spokes
beefy rim (someone mentioned the DeepV)
High flange track style hubs
Quality spokes and nipples (DT, Sapim, Wheelsmith to name a few)
4 cross pattern

That should do the trick without knowing anymore of the particulars. 36/4 cross has some overlap with smaller flanges, so go 3 cross if that's the case.

-Eric


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Ebay is filled with 32 hole Deep V's laced to Formula hubs... A strong bullet proof wheel.

IRO Cycles also sells a version. You can get a set for around $200


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

These are good budget hubs
http://www.irofixedgear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=9

They also happen to make whole wheels too.

-ERic


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

+1....I own two sets of their wheels and 3 pairs of their hubs...


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

thedips said:


> ok it was just my assumption that more the pokes the stronger..... a buddy of mine informed me that was not the case.... and that a 32 spoke wheel laced up in a certain pattern is stronger than a 36? or even a 40?


Your buddy is misinformed (or just making things up). This subject has been studied and tested by Dr. Henri Gavin, a professor at Duke University, who found that spoke pattern (number of crossings) makes no difference in wheel durability (fatigue resistance): Bicycle Wheel Spoke Patterns and Spoke Fatigue



thedips said:


> can someone please inform me on wheel building strength...
> also which spokes shape brand etc..will make it strong as well.. and im sure brass nipples


The largest factor in wheel strength, stiffness, durability is the rim. For stiffness, hub flanging spacing is the next most important variable. Spokes have a lesser affect on both strength and stiffness, although they can affect durability.

In general:

For greater stiffness, use more and thicker spokes.

For greater durability, use more and more highly butted spokes.

Aluminum nipples are more than strong enough for just about any wheel, but they are more prone to corrosion, and so brass nipples give greater durability.



thedips said:


> im going for the strongest wheel i can build for a track rear... thanks..:idea:


Then use 36 spokes with a deep rim. A 36 spoke wheel with a Velocity Deep-V rim is sturdy enough even for use on tandems.


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## Bianchiguy (Sep 8, 2005)

This should do it


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

thedips said:


> im going for the strongest wheel i can build for a track rear... thanks..:idea:


Just wondering... why? Track wheels have an easy life compared to most riding, so extreme strength is not necessary.


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## Sixty Fiver (Jul 7, 2007)

Track wheels are zero dish which makes for a much stronger wheel, they don't have to carry anything more than their rider, and velodromes don't; have potholes or bumps.

I have two rear wheels for my Trek 750 touring bike... one a 36 by 3 spoke pattern on a Sansin hub and Ambrosio wheel (light and fast) while the other is a 40 by 4 on a Ukai wheel and Suzue sealed hub (my bombproof touring wheel).

And these are nukeproof...

My 1955 Lenton runs a flip flop rear hub (zero dish) and and the wheels are vintage Dunlop EA1's (lightweight steel) which are 26 inch and use a 40 by 3 spoke pattern.


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

Strongest spoke pattern is probably a Tri specific 3 spoke carbon fibre tubular wheel. 
With a conventional wheel I would assume the greater number of spokes the stronger the wheel is. That way stress is distributed over more spokes.


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## Visitor302 (Aug 6, 2005)

One would think that more spokes would be stronger,,, but The moe spokes you have, the more holes you have to put in the rim... Swiss-cheez any hunk of metal, and what happens? it gets weaker, and weaker....
Yes, to a point more is stonger, but eventualy you reach a point of diminishing returns...


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

Visitor302 said:


> One would think that more spokes would be stronger,,, but The moe spokes you have, the more holes you have to put in the rim... Swiss-cheez any hunk of metal, and what happens? it gets weaker, and weaker....
> Yes, to a point more is stonger, but eventualy you reach a point of diminishing returns...


Right, but the majority of wheel sets out there range between 12 spokes (Usually laced radially) to 36 spokes (laced 3 cross or more).

I would hazard a guess that a 36 spoke wheel would be more durable, could take more impact energy, Have less spoke windup under a sprint, have less lateral defection going around corners... than say a 12 spoke radially laced wheel.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Sixty Fiver said:


> Track wheels are zero dish which makes for a much stronger wheel, they don't have to carry anything more than their rider, and velodromes don't; have potholes or bumps.
> 
> I have two rear wheels for my Trek 750 touring bike... one a 36 by 3 spoke pattern on a Sansin hub and Ambrosio wheel (light and fast) while the other is a 40 by 4 on a Ukai wheel and Suzue sealed hub (my bombproof touring wheel).
> 
> ...


You should watch some track events. Track wheels endure very high torque loads (only disc brakes produce higher) and flying around a highly banked velodrome isn't that easy on wheels. Notice how much more stoutly built track wheels under the people that actually use track bikes for their original purpose.

I know that the OP won't use the wheels for true track racing, but track wheels are built for a purpose and generally are much stronger than road wheels besides the dish issue.

-Eric


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## Howzitbroke (Jun 1, 2005)

From the article..."The 4X wheel is most stiff to tangential
(braking and accelerating) loads on the rim." This will also depend on the hub flange diameter and number of spokes which is not discussed. 

I read through that entire article and it was kind of muddled to me. Impact will affect a radial or 2x or 3x adversely so who cares. Forces from the rim (braking) also have the same affect on a wheel regardless of lacing. Lateral forces will fold any wheel regardless of lacing too. Where lacing is most important is the rear wheel which gets tangental forces from the chain pulling on the hub to make things go. Tangental forces are 90 degrees to the radius of the wheel. The ideal spoke positon would be 90 degrees to a radius in order to transmit all of that force to cause acceleration. 3x and 4x are both very close to 90. 4x works best with high flange hubs. Pick one, use DT or Sapim spokes. Both are great. I like 14/15/14 butted. They flex in the middle of the spoke and don't stress the sharp bend of the elbow which will fail most often. Use brass nips. Pick a good rim. Velocity, Mavic, DT or another. More rim material will be stiffer and stronger. less is ligher and flexier. Deep V's are the beefiest performance rims on the market. Velocity Fusions and CXP 33 by mavic are nice too. You can lace the front radial or 2x or 3x. I'd build up 32 rear 3x, and front 24 or 28 2x or radial. The thing about radial is that a hub needs to be designed for it. Check with the hub manufacturer. 

Last thought is that 24 and 28 spoke wheels don't or can't lace easily 3x and won't 4x build enough wheels and this stuff gets clearer. 32 won't lace 4x in most cases either. 

The best thing about track wheels is symmetry. Rear road wheels are different and mixing lacing patterns can improve things.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

ergott said:


> You should watch some track events. Track wheels endure very high torque loads (only disc brakes produce higher) and flying around a highly banked velodrome isn't that easy on wheels.


Since the torque load is inversely proportional to the gear ratio, MTBs put much more torque into the wheel. For instance, for the same crank torque applied to a 24/34 (.75) gear will have 4.4 times as much torque at the hub as a 50/15 (3.33) ratio. Track riders seem to favor stiff bikes though, so I can see it from that angle... but a better bracing angle should be the best way to achieve that with a spoked wheel.


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## jbkalla (Jun 29, 2006)

I hope this helps:

I'm 260lbs. I just started commuting on my 2006 Fuji Team with a set of Neuvation M28 Aero wheels (with ceramic bearings). I haven't noticed any flex at all, and they're still in true after well over 150mi (so far!). Now, that's not a lot of miles for a test, but damn, TWO HUNDRED SIXTY POUNDS!? That's like 85# over the "bike standard!" I previously used 34 spoke Mavic Open Pros, but these are stiffer, IMHO. I'm VERY impressed with them.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Track bikes and wheel torque*



ergott said:


> You should watch some track events. Track wheels endure very high torque loads (only disc brakes produce higher) and flying around a highly banked velodrome isn't that easy on wheels. Notice how much more stoutly built track wheels under the people that actually use track bikes for their original purpose.


Cyclists frequently like to believe that the forces from pedaling strain the wheels, as if they could rip apart a wheel with drive torque. But that just isn't the reality. The largest stress on a wheel is simply from bearing the rider's weight (which can be multiplied when riding over bumps and rough pavement). A 250 lb. completely out of shape couch-potato will put more stress on his wheels than the most fit 160 lb. professional racer, simply because the wheels have to bear more weight.

If a track racer stresses their wheels more than a road racer, it is only because track racers are larger than most road racers (often 200+ for a track racer). It is primarily the size of the track racer, not their sheer power, that creates more wheel stress.

As rruff says, the very low gears on MTBs makes it easier to generate higher torques than on track bikes. The maximum torque a wheel will endure is the torque it takes to the lift the other wheel off the ground - either popping a wheelie from drive torque, or doing endo with a front disk brake. An average rider can do either one easily on an MTB.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

The reason I brought up track events is because I was talking about torque, not overall stress.

The lower gearing of mtn bikes can definitely produce more load, but rarely is someone in the lowest cog pushing as hard as they possibly can (1500 watts or so of a standing start sprint). Lower cogs are more for spinning and reducing fatigue. If you applied the same power as a track start to the lowest gears on bikes, the front end would simply lift off the ground. I'm not talking about sustainable power, but absolute peaks.



-Eric


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

ergott said:


> I'm not talking about sustainable power, but absolute peaks.


I think we agree on that, but power is irrelevant... what we care about is torque at the rear hub. For the same *force* applied at the crank the MTB rider will produce 4-5 times as much torque at the hub as the track rider... *if* he is in a low gear. The lowest MTB gears are sometimes used rather forcefully in climbing situations. The limiting torque is where the rear tire spins out or a wheelie is initiated. This happens a lot on an MTB, but not a track bike.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Yeah, I'm brain fartin' here. I know what your saying.

-Eric


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## PltJett (Nov 23, 2006)

I'm pretty sure these would work 

http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/bik/394957122.html


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## Licensed Mechanic (Mar 20, 2021)

thedips said:


> ok it was just my assumption that more the pokes the stronger..... a buddy of mine informed me that was not the case.... and that a 32 spoke wheel laced up in a certain pattern is stronger than a 36? or even a 40?
> 
> can someone please inform me on wheel building strength...
> also which spokes shape brand etc..will make it strong as well.. and im sure brass nipples
> ...


Think of spokes as bolts. They are elastic and create tension when stretched. If you have a bolt where you can measure its length as it is tightened, you can measure its stretch with a micrometer. If they experience repeated loads that are greater than their tension, they will stretch, and eventually fatigue and fail. It is spokes that are under tensioned that fail. Why you see spokes on the left side of the rear wheel fail . When you dish a wheel and check the tension with something like a Park spoke tension gauge, you will see they have less tension than the spokes on the gear cluster side of the wheel.

Get a tension gauge and check to see if the spokes have loosened. For added reliability you can build a wheel with more spokes or stronger spokes. Spokes that are butted are stronger and more fatigue resistant than thicker un butted spokes. Rolling a butted spoke is a forming process. It makes the spoke many times stronger and fatigue resistant. This will cause an under tensioned spoke last longer before it fails, but it will still fail. If the spoke is not loaded beyond its tension, it will not fatigue.

In the early seventies Kawasaki went to the Daytona 200 with various thickness head gaskets to increase the compression ration to find the maximum they could run without detonation. The repeated re torquing of the cylinder head bolts deformed the threads so the friction between the threads increased. A torque wrench only measures turning force, not bolt tension. The head bolts were under tensioned. All their motorcycles retired with broken head bolts that fatigued because they were under tensioned, fatigued and broke. Fasteners need to have greater tension than the repeated loads they experience to not fail.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Licensed Mechanic said:


> Think of spokes as bolts. They are elastic and create tension when stretched. If you have a bolt where you can measure its length as it is tightened, you can measure its stretch with a micrometer. If they experience repeated loads that are greater than their tension, they will stretch, and eventually fatigue and fail. It is spokes that are under tensioned that fail. Why you see spokes on the left side of the rear wheel fail . When you dish a wheel and check the tension with something like a Park spoke tension gauge, you will see they have less tension than the spokes on the gear cluster side of the wheel.
> 
> Get a tension gauge and check to see if the spokes have loosened. For added reliability you can build a wheel with more spokes or stronger spokes. Spokes that are butted are stronger and more fatigue resistant than thicker un butted spokes. Rolling a butted spoke is a forming process. It makes the spoke many times stronger and fatigue resistant. This will cause an under tensioned spoke last longer before it fails, but it will still fail. If the spoke is not loaded beyond its tension, it will not fatigue.
> 
> In the early seventies Kawasaki went to the Daytona 200 with various thickness head gaskets to increase the compression ration to find the maximum they could run without detonation. The repeated re torquing of the cylinder head bolts deformed the threads so the friction between the threads increased. A torque wrench only measures turning force, not bolt tension. The head bolts were under tensioned. All their motorcycles retired with broken head bolts that fatigued because they were under tensioned, fatigued and broke. Fasteners need to have greater tension than the repeated loads they experience to not fail.


While what you said here is true about under tensioned spokes being more likely to fatigue and fail, the person you responded to was building a track wheel where tension disparities are next to nil.

Even so, the rim is really your weakest link. If a spoke breaks due to undertensioning, you can replace that spoke. If you overtension your drive side spokes, rim spoke holes crack, the rim is junk and you have to completely rebuild.

This being said, a good quality rim (one that doesn't say Mavic, Bontrager or Velocity on it) can handle a drive side torque of 130kgF. On a symetrical rim with a Shimano standard 11-speed hub with equal diameter flanges, this will bring you to around 55kgF which is adequate. I have built a number of wheels like this and never had one fail. Using a hub with a wider DS flange or an asymetrical rim will bring your NDS tension to around 65-70kgF. Use both and you can get even higher. 

As November Dave once said and I will paraphrase: "Once your wheel is up to tension, more tension does not give you a stronger wheel. This myth needs to die". However, more spokes does indeed give you a stronger wheel as you have load spread out across more spokes. This is simple common sense. Plain and simple, if you use fewer spokes, you need a heavier more robust wheel to compensate. And this creates the perfect storm. Fewer spokes will cause the wheel to flex more, but because the rim is heavier, the rim itself will flex less. Less rim flexing means the rim will not move along with the bike as much when you put torque on the rear wheel climbing a hill. Therefore you are more likely to flex the wheel to the point of rubbing the frame. Did I mention this was the perfect storm?

Lastly. If you are looking for a good tensiometer, I highly recommend the one made by K&P Lie. Far better than that Park Tool POS.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

How do you all keep track of a thread that is 14 years old?

32 spokes are always better because 32 is an exponent of 2.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

I'd just like to add a few notes on your answer to this decade-and-a-half-old thread:



Licensed Mechanic said:


> Think of spokes as bolts. They are elastic and create tension when stretched. If you have a bolt where you can measure its length as it is tightened, you can measure its stretch with a micrometer.


I've got a LOT of micrometers, but none of them are sensitive enough to measure this. Perhaps a supermicrometer? Mostly, though, engineers measuring bolt stress use strain gauges.



> If they experience repeated loads that are greater than their tension, they will stretch, and eventually fatigue and fail. It is spokes that are under tensioned that fail. Why you see spokes on the left side of the rear wheel fail . ..


Actually, non-drive side spoke failure is more common on the leading-direction spokes, because those spokes actually can cycle all the way to zero tension and back, sometimes several times a second. That's why radial-spoking is common on heavily-dished non-drive sides.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

GKSki said:


> How do you all keep track of a thread that is 14 years old?
> 
> 32 spokes are always better because 32 is an exponent of 2.


So are you saying this thread should be revived again when it's 16 years old?


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## Licensed Mechanic (Mar 20, 2021)

Lombard said:


> While what you said here is true about under tensioned spokes being more likely to fatigue and fail, the person you responded to was building a track wheel where tension disparities are next to nil.
> 
> Even so, the rim is really your weakest link. If a spoke breaks due to undertensioning, you can replace that spoke. If you overtension your drive side spokes, rim spoke holes crack, the rim is junk and you have to completely rebuild.
> 
> ...


I have repaired wheels where there were cracks in the cluster side of the rim from over tensioned spokes and weaknesses in the materials. I have noticed this mostly with Mavic and Bontrager rims. These have been rare. The wheel failures I most commonly see are spoke breakage on the non cluster side of rear wheels. I rarely see front wheel failures. I work mostly on commuter, trekking, touring and road bicycles. I have observed the probability of wheel failure depends on the maintenance those wheels received more than any other factor. A factor no one had mentioned.

The reason I like the Park tensioning tool is it measures how much a spoke resists deforming between three points; which eliminates the friction between the threads of the spoke and nipple as a measurement factor. When I was at Centennial College, taking theory courses to get my mechanics license, we were taught the best ways to measure fastener tension eliminate thread friction as a variable. When tuners, building race engines, tighten connecting rod bolts, they use go, no go gap tools. These measure how far the bolt has stretched. I have seen expensive bicycle spoke torque wrenches advertised and realized these expensive tools were measuring nipple turning force, that involves the friction between spoke and nipple threads: dirt or lubricant on the threads, deformation of threads from use or wear. The Park tool eliminates all these variables. It is a simple, easy to use tool that eliminates variables that obscure what we are measuring. For these reasons I consider it an ingenious, excellent tool.

If someone were to ask we what I consider a good set of wheels for a commuter, trekking or touring bicycle I would recommend: XT or better Shimano hubs, 28 h front, 36 h rear, DT Swiss Alpine III spokes in a cross 3 pattern, and DT Swiss rims with an offset rear rim. I have no idea what would make an excellent track bike wheel but I would be interested in reading what an experienced track bicycle mechanic has experienced. Would they also consider maintenance the most important factor?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Licensed Mechanic said:


> I have repaired wheels where there were cracks in the cluster side of the rim from over tensioned spokes and weaknesses in the materials. I have noticed this mostly with Mavic and Bontrager rims. These have been rare. The wheel failures I most commonly see are spoke breakage on the non cluster side of rear wheels.


Considering that some Mavic rims have a max spoke tension rating of 90kgF, I honestly do not see how a reliable wheel can be built with one of these if you are using an 11-speed freehub.



Licensed Mechanic said:


> I rarely see front wheel failures.


Front rim brake wheels don't have any real loads on them. They are basically along for the ride. Front disc brake wheels are a totally different story.



Licensed Mechanic said:


> I have observed the probability of wheel failure depends on the maintenance those wheels received more than any other factor. A factor no one had mentioned.


Maintenance? What kind of maintenance? If the wheel is built properly in the first place including properly stressing and equalizing the spoke tensions on the wheel while building it, it should not require further attention once in service. I have one wheel set I built with over 7,000 miles on it and it has never needed re-truing or re-tensioning.



Licensed Mechanic said:


> The reason I like the Park tensioning tool is it measures how much a spoke resists deforming between three points; which eliminates the friction between the threads of the spoke and nipple as a measurement factor.
> 
> I have seen expensive bicycle spoke torque wrenches advertised and realized these expensive tools were measuring nipple turning force, that involves the friction between spoke and nipple threads: dirt or lubricant on the threads, deformation of threads from use or wear.


Are we talking about the same tool? I thought you were referring to the spoke tension tool. I must correct myself on the brand - senior moment! This is the spoke tensiometer I use:









Wheel Fanatyk Tensiometers - Wheel Fanatyk


Optimizing spoke tension is the key to building long lasting wheels and tensiometers make this possible for novices and easier for experienced builders. History Wheel Fanatyk Tensiometers are among the most accurate, durable, convenient, simple, and logical available. Created by HP engineer...




www.wheelfanatyk.com





The reason I prefer this spoke tension tool is that spokes are not perfectly straight - even at tension. This can throw off your reading. The way this tool reads compensates for that. This is also a much more robust design. Expensive, but you get what you pay for.

And I like the P&L Lie spoke wrench just because....well....I have a few spoke wrenches and this one just feels the nicest:









P&K Lie Spoke Wrench - Wheel Fanatyk


Everything they do is clever and refined. The P&K spoke wrench is the World’s Best square drive according to many. Wrenches are personal, decide for yourself. Certainly, try some builds with this one. A really fine, 4-flat drive design with a low, efficient profile, finger-friendly paddle shape...




www.wheelfanatyk.com







Licensed Mechanic said:


> If someone were to ask we what I consider a good set of wheels for a commuter, trekking or touring bicycle I would recommend: XT or better Shimano hubs, 28 h front, 36 h rear, DT Swiss Alpine III spokes in a cross 3 pattern, and DT Swiss rims with an offset rear rim.


Hmmm. Can you even get an XT hub in anything other than 32 and 36 hole? Not to mention that any currently made Shimano mountain hubs are disc only. You would need to find new/old stock to find rim brake mountain hubs. I would not build disc brake wheels any less than 32 spoke front and rear. And of course any wheel between 28 and 36 spokes needs to be 3 cross.

For commuting, trekking, etc., I believe the only rim brake rim DT Swiss still makes is the TK 540. I don't see it available in an asymmetric design.

I do have a road wheel set I built with DT R460 rims, Dura-Ace 9000 hubs, DT Aero Comp spokes and DT brass nipples. The wheels have served me well.

I have never built a disc brake wheel set with DT rims as they require special nipples and washers. IMO, there are better rim choices for disc brake bikes. I built two gravel bike wheel sets - one with HED Belgium + rims, the other with H+ Son Hydra rims.



Licensed Mechanic said:


> I have no idea what would make an excellent track bike wheel......


I have no experience in this area myself. I merely commented on the fact that with no freehub, tension disparities are negligible.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

For the most part, 28/32 and 32/36 are the hub combos I've seen. I've never seen a 28/36 combo anywhere. Raleighs used to be infamous for their 32/40 combos (where all spokes were the exact same length), but that's old-school now.....


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> For the most part, 28/32 and 32/36 are the hub combos I've seen. I've never seen a 28/36 combo anywhere. Raleighs used to be infamous for their 32/40 combos (where all spokes were the exact same length), but that's old-school now.....


I actually build all my road rim brake wheel sets 24/32. No reason not to have an 8 spoke difference. Front rim brake wheels don't have any twisting forces on them and don't flex.


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## Licensed Mechanic (Mar 20, 2021)

Lombard said:


> I actually build all my road rim brake wheel sets 24/32. No reason not to have an 8 spoke difference. Front rim brake wheels don't have any twisting forces on them and don't flex.


I agree with your evaluation of rim versus disk brakes. Years ago Buell motorcycles came out with a disk brake that had the disk bolted to the rim. It was considered a technical step forward because the brake loads did not have to travel through the hub and spokes. Rim brakes go one step further. They use the rim as the disk. The only way to make the load path more direct would be to have the bake pads grip the tire. I cannot see how that could be possible.

Most of my bicycles came with 28/32 or 28/28 hubs. I upgrade buying parts from eBay or Kijiji. I buy the hubs independently. Not as sets. I want the rear wheel stronger so I choose 28/36. I check the spoke tension about once a year. The fronts rarely need adjustment so I could probably get away with fewer spoke but I would rather overbuild. My rear wheels often needed a few spokes adjusted. I am often 80km from home on remote roads. I have not had a wheel failure in decades. When I started bicycling I had spokes break and many more punctures. The other problem has been breaking cables. With maintenance, proper assembly and good parts most of these problems can be minimized or avoided. 

One irony of bicycling is even though they are more simple than cars, using them requires more mechanical knowledge and maintenance.


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## Licensed Mechanic (Mar 20, 2021)

No Time Toulouse said:


> I'd just like to add a few notes on your answer to this decade-and-a-half-old thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In a grade 9 auto class I had students take 1 3/4"long 1/4" bolts, put them through a hole drilled in a block of steel, and torque them to different settings. We used 5 ft.lb. increments on the torque wrench and measured the length of the bolt with both micrometers and vernier calipers. I had to dress the ends of the bolts with a v-block on a mitre guage on a disk sander to get them square and flat. The bolts stretched enough to give differences in the thousandths of inches.

The students graphed the readings with torque on the horizontal axis (control variable) and stretch on the vertical axis (dependent variable). The lines were slightly zigzagged, but consistently up to the right. The zigzagging was considered due to the limits of accuracy of the measuring instruments. This dovetailed nicely with the Grade 9 Math curriculum that focused on linear relationships y=mx+b. y was the stretch, m was the slope and rate of stretch per unit of torque, x was the torque setting and b was the length of the bolt with no tension applied. 

Students learned how to use a micrometer, vernier caliper, torque wrench, and observed how fastening hardware works because of the elasticity of the material. These were student quality tools accurate to the nearest thousandth of an inch and had no difficulty measuring the stretch of 1/4" bolts bought at a local Home Depot. I personally own a Swiss micrometer with a vernier scale that is supposed to be accurate to one ten thousandth of an inch.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Licensed Mechanic said:


> The fronts rarely need adjustment so I could probably get away with fewer spoke but I would rather overbuild. My rear wheels often needed a few spokes adjusted. I am often 80km from home on remote roads. I have not had a wheel failure in decades. When I started bicycling I had spokes break and many more punctures. The other problem has been breaking cables. With maintenance, proper assembly and good parts most of these problems can be minimized or avoided.


Overbuilding is always a good idea when it comes to touring/trekking. If a spoke breaks on a 32 or 36 spoke wheel, a spoke wrench is all you need to get you home. I actually managed to break a spoke on a 24 spoke rear once and adjust it well enough to get home 30 miles later. The rear felt a little unstable, but there was no brake or frame rub. Granted I rode very gingerly. Anything with less than 24 spokes you will be walking or calling a cab.

Breaking cables! Welcome to the last 3 generations of Shimano road shifters! I go through a rear cable every 1500-2000 miles. These Shimano shifters love to chew cables!


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