# Dating a C40?



## jjp

How can you find out what year a C40 is? I recently put down a deposit on a NOS C40 B Stay, and it just occured to me (from reading a great article at Velo News) that there have been a number of developments in the frame, particularly in the BB shell, where it went from alluminum to titanium. So, I have an additional question, is there a reason to not buy the C40 B-Stay if it has an aluminum BB shell? Thanks.


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## tmluk

Yes. It is true that the earlier versions of C40 had corrosion issues with the BB shell and the drop-outs. I can look for it when I return home tonight. I think the switch was around/after 1996 ... but I will check to make sure.


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## jjp

Thanks. Do you think you can tell from the serial number?


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## Vientomas

Here is the little I know:

Earliest C40's had a down tube that was the same diameter at the head tube junction as the bottom bracket junction and had steel forks.

Next generation had a down tube that was a larger diameter at the bottom bracket than at the head tube. I think these frames started to use carbon forks.

Next came the B-Stay.

Lastly was the B-Stay HP.

If you bought a B-Stay version, it it probably a newer (relatively speaking) version which should have the Ti insert in the bottom bracket.

I have the second generation (larger diameter down tube at BB) and it has a Ti shell in the BB.


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## jjp

Thanks, I just got off the phone with the sales manager at Colnago America. It is likely a 2002 or 2003 frame. The titanium BB was added the same year they added the HP stays and increased the stearing column diamter to 1 1/8", which was 2003 or 2004. But that might contradict the info that you have about your frame?? Yes, I did buy the B-Stay, non HP version, but I was told (and it looks to me) that the BB shell is aluminum.

He doubted that it would present any problems, and said that the aluminum BB was mostly a problem for riders who got their bikes wet a lot, and then didn't take the time to clean them properly. He also added that if I broke the fork, unless I could find find a used one or NOS, I would have to have it replaced with the current Colnago Street fork which uses an aluminum strearing column (the same one that I have on my Master). However, I think that if I was to break the fork, I would need more than just a new fork.

When I mentioned the name of the store that the bike was at, he knew immediately who the owner was, and said that the guy goes to Italy all the time to buy up NOS frames. That is likely how they ended up with so many C40s in the past year.

If you want to see what line up looks like from 2002, they have a bunch at: http://members.cox.net/italianbikesusa/c40.html

Mine is the last one, LX23.


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## tmluk

Ti BB was introduced in 2000.
B-stay was introduced in 2001.
So if the C40 you're buying has the B-stays, then it has the Ti BB shell.


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## jjp

I believe the frame to be from 2002, it is a B-Stay (non HP), and the manager (and also from what I could tell) said that it is aluminum. According to the sales manager at Colnogo, the ti BB was introduced with the HP, after the B Stay. I'm amazed there isn't a detailed history on the web. with all of information out there you'd there would at least be a chronolgy of sorts.


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## tmluk

This is odd because I have Lennard Zinn's Tour Tech Review 10 July 2002 stating that the making of the BB joint of the C40 is Ti. As I said, I have seen the slotted Ti BB insert in early C40's.

Zinn: "The development of the C40 is ongoing. The carbon is now lighter and stiffer, and the stays and bottom bracket have changed since the first of its Paris-Roubaix victories. Early models had aluminum bottom bracket sleeves like most carbon frames. Now, Colnago's titanium sleeve is knurled on the outside and has four teeth locking into notches in the carbon shell (see photo). It is far more expensive, but it is much better; titanium cannot corrode, and it has stronger threads and bonding. "


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## jjp

tmluk said:


> This is odd because I have Lennard Zinn's Tour Tech Review 10 July 2002 stating that the making of the BB joint of the C40 is Ti. As I said, I have seen the slotted Ti BB insert in early C40's.
> 
> Zinn: "The development of the C40 is ongoing. The carbon is now lighter and stiffer, and the stays and bottom bracket have changed since the first of its Paris-Roubaix victories. Early models had aluminum bottom bracket sleeves like most carbon frames. Now, Colnago's titanium sleeve is knurled on the outside and has four teeth locking into notches in the carbon shell (see photo). It is far more expensive, but it is much better; titanium cannot corrode, and it has stronger threads and bonding. "


I have that article too. I found it on the net yesterday. It seems REALLY hard to get a straight answer. I mean if you call Colnago, you'd think you get the straight goods. He (the sales manager) was not 100%. More like 90% certain. The BB on the frame that I put a deposit on is not knurled on the outside, and there are no locking teeth either. It is however, a B-Stay. You can see it here, all though the pic is not that great. http://www.racersportif.com/classics.htm Alternatively, there is a better pic here, and this one too looks exactly like the one that is in the store. You can tell form the pic that the BB is not ti, and even though it is small, you can tell that there are no locking teeth:
http://members.cox.net/italianbikesusa/c40.html

I`m going to go back to the store tomorrow and ask if they have any other C40's to look at, and see if all of the BBs look the same.


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## JLane

*dealer name?*

JJP, would you be willing to reveal who the dealer of the NOS framesets is? I would be curious to keep an eye on the their inventory. Thank you.


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## jjp

JLane said:


> JJP, would you be willing to reveal who the dealer of the NOS framesets is? I would be curious to keep an eye on the their inventory. Thank you.


Hi, yes sure. The store is Racer Sportif in Toronto. web site www.racersportif.com. Go to the "Classics" section after you press "enter", and scroll down. It is not an accurate page. He still has the Mapei listed and it is sold. I've put a deposit on the LX23, 

If you want info, you'd have to call him, as there is little posted on the site. I'd be curious to hear what you can find out. Ask for Chris or Denis if you call. I'm going back there tomorrow with my tape measure to compare the tube lengths to my Master (they should be the same), have another look at the BB shell, take down the serial number so that I can contact Colnogo to see when it was made. It seems from everything that I have read that there is conflicting information as to wether or not it should have a ti or an aluminum BB shell, and that is the most frustrating piece of info in all of this. From what have come across the ti BB shell was introduced on the C40 HP, not the C40 B-Stay. However, some of the riders that have responded to my thread said that they have a C40 B-Stay (non HP) with a ti BB. I just want to make sure that the frame is legit, and it is not a first generation C40 with "B Stay" stenciled onto the seat/chain stays - because if it is first generation, I don't want it. It looks identicle to the one in the image on their page, and to the one on this page:

http://members.cox.net/italianbikesusa/c40.html

Regards, Jared.


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## tmluk

The locking teeth is on the right side *only* of the frame. Can send pic if you like but if you can check the frames first hand that is even better.

The reason I am pretty certain that Colnago was aware of the BB corrosion problems around 1997 because I have the 1996 and 1997 catalogues. The C40's already have the locking teeth pattern on the right side of the BB. These might not be Ti but Al but C40 already have the locking teeth BB by then.


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## jjp

tmluk said:


> The locking teeth is on the right side *only* of the frame. Can send pic if you like but if you can check the frames first hand that is even better.
> 
> The reason I am pretty certain that Colnago was aware of the BB corrosion problems around 1997 because I have the 1996 and 1997 catalogues. The C40's already have the locking teeth pattern on the right side of the BB. These might not be Ti but Al but C40 already have the locking teeth BB by then.


So, if you're saying that C40's had locking teeth by 1997, then the frame that racer Sportif is selling is pre 1997? However, that does not add up with what I have been reading in different places here - that the ti BB (with locking teeth) was not introduced until the early 2000's.

I am going for a ride today, and on the route I'm going to stop in at the bike shop, and get a good look at the frame. I do not recall seeing any locking teeth, but then I may not have been looking for that. I will get the serial number and call Colnago America to see how I can find out what year the frame was made.
Thanks.


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## Ride-Fly

JJP,
One thing you stated a few times (on this thread and your other regarding C40s) is reference to C40s going to 1 1/8" steerer tubes. I thought C40s ALWAYS had 1" steerers. From everything I read, the switch to 1 1/8" coincides with the introduction of the C50. I know Colnago made both the C40 and C50 in 2004 so maybe that is where the confusion is?

This whole Ti BB shell has me really intrigued. If this shop has C40 B-stays with Alum shells (and it turns out that B-stay frames should all have Ti), something doesn't add up. Could the owner have been duped and bought a bunch a fake C40s during his trips to Italy??? The whole other thread on the fake Colnagos got me thinking that there are probably cheats out there that are making fake C40s, C50s, as well. Scary thought.


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## jjp

I think I may have stumbled into some poor sentence structure! I meant to say that the 1 1/8" steering column was after the C40. On another note however, I went by the store, and I could not find the serial number on it, but the BB shell was definately aluminum. They had a few more so I looked the over, and there was one more in the right size, but different colour scheme, and it defiantely has a ti BB shell! So, I'm getting that one instead. Also, I noticed on the one with the ti BB shell that the seat post lug was a bit beefier and cut slightly different. I took some pics of the frame, and I'll post them a little later on. I'm glad I did some research, it paid off, big time. The colour shceme is the LX11, basically red and white. Nice.


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## jjp

This is the one that I decided to go with, after learning that the Robobank coloured scheme frame that I was initially pining after had no serial number and had the aluminum BB shell. It's a bit more $$$, but also a bit more peace of mind. Frame is NOS and $3100.


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## tmluk

That is one beautiful classic frame. I am glad that you finally got what you were looking for. Your adventure had helped me learnt a thing or two. C40 B-stay is availabe in both Al BB and Ti BB shell ... and some without serial numbers. Very interesting, frustrating and intriguing. This one also have replacable rear hanger as well.

Does this one have a serial number? Btw, I have checked my 1997 C40 pre-B-stay catalogue again, the BB does have teeth/notches ... some are more fortunate and some are less fortunate ... Like the guys at Racer Sportif said to me, "It's Italian. There is always tomorrow."


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## jjp

tmluk said:


> That is one beautiful classic frame. I am glad that you finally got what you were looking for. Your adventure had helped me learnt a thing or two. C40 B-stay is availabe in both Al BB and Ti BB shell ... and some without serial numbers. Very interesting, frustrating and intriguing. This one also have replacable rear hanger as well.
> 
> Does this one have a serial number? Btw, I have checked my 1997 C40 pre-B-stay catalogue again, the BB does have teeth/notches ... some are more fortunate and some are less fortunate ... Like the guys at Racer Sportif said to me, "It's Italian. Ther is always tomorrow."


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## fabsroman

jjp said:


> I believe the frame to be from 2002, it is a B-Stay (non HP), and the manager (and also from what I could tell) said that it is aluminum. According to the sales manager at Colnogo, the ti BB was introduced with the HP, after the B Stay. I'm amazed there isn't a detailed history on the web. with all of information out there you'd there would at least be a chronolgy of sorts.


Yeah, well if the manager also told you that the C40 ever had a 1 1/8" headtube, then he definitely does not know what he is talking about. When the 1 1/8" headtube was added to the frame, it became the C50.


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## Ride-Fly

jjp said:


> I think I may have stumbled into some poor sentence structure! I meant to say that the 1 1/8" steering column was after the C40. On another note however, I went by the store, and I could not find the serial number on it, but the BB shell was definately aluminum. They had a few more so I looked the over, and there was one more in the right size, but different colour scheme, and it defiantely has a ti BB shell! So, I'm getting that one instead. Also, I noticed on the one with the ti BB shell that the seat post lug was a bit beefier and cut slightly different. I took some pics of the frame, and I'll post them a little later on. I'm glad I did some research, it paid off, big time. The colour shceme is the LX11, basically red and white. Nice.


Thanks JJP! As tmluk said, I definitely learned more about C40s!!! Now one question- how does one tell that it is a Ti or Alum shell? Is it just the color? I know it really doesn't matter too much but I definitely want a Ti BB shell. Probably only for the fact that my Extreme C has a Ti shell so my future C40 must have one too!


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## jjp

Ride-Fly said:


> Thanks JJP! As tmluk said, I definitely learned more about C40s!!! Now one question- how does one tell that it is a Ti or Alum shell? Is it just the color? I know it really doesn't matter too much but I definitely want a Ti BB shell. Probably only for the fact that my Extreme C has a Ti shell so my future C40 must have one too!


The colour is the biggest difference if you are just eyeing it. I believe, but I could be wrong here, that most Colnago frames come with a Ti B shell, but there maybe someone here who could clairfy that. Hopefully any store you would be buying through, woudl have staff that could tell you. Aluminum is quite silvery, where as titanium is almost greyish in colour. I'm not sure if it doesn't matter. I can definately see the benifits of having it: it won't corrode, you'll never have to worry about damaging the threads, aluminum is soft, and therefore there is a possibility that the bearing cups could become microscopically loose more frequently, resulting in that annoy "ping" or "tick" sound when you apply force to the cranks.

On the other hand, I would hazzard a guess by saying that most frame builders use aluminum over titanium, and you don't hear a lot of complaints about bearing cups coming loose, or of damaged BB shells.

Because Colnago identified it as somewhat of an issue - back in the day -, and because there were cases where the BB shell corroded in the C40 with the aluminum shell, I decided that I would play it safe - even though I prefer the paint scheme of the LX23 more.


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## jjp

tmluk said:


> Ti BB was introduced in 2000.
> B-stay was introduced in 2001.
> So if the C40 you're buying has the B-stays, then it has the Ti BB shell.


The first C40 that I was looking at is a B Stay, but it has an aluminum BB shell (and no serial number!). The second one that I looked at was with a ti BB shell,and it did have a serial number. As there is no way of verifying the year of manufacturer of the one without the serial number, I've gone with the one with the ti BB and the serial number. I sent it to Colnago America, and trhey said they would get an answer from Italy.


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## rplace13

Beautiful frame, well done!


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## jjp

This is the other frame that I was initially looking at. It is plain from this image that there are no looking teeth on the BB shell, yet, it is also clearly a B Stay.


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## jjp

rplace13 said:


> Beautiful frame, well done!


Thanks, yes, I lucked out. They are not exactly common anymore, and to find one in the right size, and the late version as well, and with a nice paint job is almost serandipidous. After having looked at a lot of carbon frames over the last couple of years, I am of the opinion that the look of the C40 B Stay, with it's tradional geometry and small diameter fluted tubes is a thing if beauty in the bicycle world. Colnago had somethng going on with those paint jobs as well. I have always been partial to the complexity of the LX paint scehmes. I have heard them described as "garrish", but that is not a word I would use. More like works of art.


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## jjp

Ride-Fly said:


> JJP,
> One thing you stated a few times (on this thread and your other regarding C40s) is reference to C40s going to 1 1/8" steerer tubes. I thought C40s ALWAYS had 1" steerers. From everything I read, the switch to 1 1/8" coincides with the introduction of the C50. I know Colnago made both the C40 and C50 in 2004 so maybe that is where the confusion is?
> 
> This whole Ti BB shell has me really intrigued. If this shop has C40 B-stays with Alum shells (and it turns out that B-stay frames should all have Ti), something doesn't add up. Could the owner have been duped and bought a bunch a fake C40s during his trips to Italy??? The whole other thread on the fake Colnagos got me thinking that there are probably cheats out there that are making fake C40s, C50s, as well. Scary thought.


No, I don't think the one with the aluminum BB shell that is missing the serial number is a fake, I think that it is just typical of Colnago, or maybe _was _typical of Colnago. It is possible that is why the frame never sold in the first place. I'm not sure where the owner got them, but I was told that he goes to Italy often and buys up new old stock. The sales manager at Colnago America knew him by name.


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## jjp

It's final: I just heard back from Colnago America, the frame (with the ti BB shell) was built in 2003. It must be the latest incarnation before going to the HP design. 2003 is good, I like it!


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## rplace13

jjp said:


> Thanks, yes, I lucked out. They are not exactly common anymore, and to find one in the right size, and the late version as well, and with a nice paint job is almost serandipidous. After having looked at a lot of carbon frames over the last couple of years, I am of the opinion that the look of the C40 B Stay, with it's tradional geometry and small diameter fluted tubes is a thing if beauty in the bicycle world. Colnago had somethng going on with those paint jobs as well. I have always been partial to the complexity of the LX paint scehmes. I have heard them described as "garrish", but that is not a word I would use. More like works of art.


Totally agree on the paint. I love the LX and AD paint along with almost all the others. I guess for most it is a love or hate thing. I feel they scream Italian craftmanship. Personally, for me, I really like the HP stays. I think that along with the "master" looking fluted tubes gives the bike a perfect old world charm with a modern update - perfect balance. I think I am going to skip out of work early today and build up my LX10 C40. I got the head set installed last week and have been looking at it in the garage just itching to build it up. You really hit a home run with size/paint/NOS. I'll have to live with the nicks and scratches on mine...but I finally have a Colnago. Pix are a must once it is road worthy.


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## tmluk

Note, this one does not have replaceable rear derailleur drop-outs as well.
No serial number, No Ti BB and No replaceable drop-outs ... 3x strikes!


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## tmluk

Racer Sportif is very much like Mastero in UK. They have their own supply channel to Colnago. When I bought my Master back in 1990 from Racer Sportif, the Master has a different geometry than advertised. Racer Sportif casually said it was a custom Colnago Master they received and I loved it. Four years ago I went through an exhausive exercise to measure the Master (56cm) exactly; its geometry turned out matching my C50 (55cm) perfectly down to the mm. What luck!


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## tmluk

Racer Sportif is very much like Mastero in UK. They have their own supply channel to Colnago. When I bought my Master back in 1990 from Racer Sportif, the Master had a different geometry than advertised. Racer Sportif casually said it was a custom Colnago Master they received - bought it and loved it. Four years ago I went through an exhausive exercise to measure the Master (56cm) exactly; its geometry turned out matching my C50 (55cm) perfectly down to the mm. What luck!


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## Ride-Fly

JLane said:


> JJP, would you be willing to reveal who the dealer of the NOS framesets is? I would be curious to keep an eye on the their inventory. Thank you.


Hey buddy, nohing to see there... Move along!  

What size are you looking for? Hope you don't buy the one I have my eye on (it's my second choice primarily due to it's cost). They had a Mapei in 55! I wish I would have known about that earlier. I think I would've paid the asking price for that one.


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## jjp

Ride-Fly said:


> Hey buddy, nohing to see there... Move along!
> 
> What size are you looking for? Hope you don't buy the one I have my eye on (it's my second choice primarily due to it's cost). They had a Mapei in 55! I wish I would have known about that earlier. I think I would've paid the asking price for that one.


There arne't too many left, may be four?. The LX23 is the one with no serial number, and an aluminum BB, but in the gorgeous Robobank colours. It's 60 cm (centre to too), though it measures 57 centre to centre. The others are smaller, I don't know what size. Call them up and ask tem what they have as the site is not accurate.


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## fabsroman

Ride-Fly said:


> Hey buddy, nohing to see there... Move along!
> 
> What size are you looking for? Hope you don't buy the one I have my eye on (it's my second choice primarily due to it's cost). They had a Mapei in 55! I wish I would have known about that earlier. I think I would've paid the asking price for that one.


I am scared to leep looking at the site because he might get an Extreme C in stock in my size and WXIN. That would be a tough decision.


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## Salsa_Lover

I've never seen Extreme Cs on WXIN fabs, so you are safe.

I am seeing many EPs on 54cm for sale in italy at really good prices though


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## Ride-Fly

fabsroman said:


> I am scared to leep looking at the site because he might get an Extreme C in stock in my size and WXIN. That would be a tough decision.


fabs, have you been looking in europe? i've been checking out a few of the european sites and they have a good amount of ext c, c40, c50, etc. 

when r u taking delivery of your master x-l? i can't decide! should i pick up a nos frameset for ~$2900 or get a used complete bike w/ record 10 for ~$1350. if i could know for sure that the latter had a ti bb shell and replaceable derailleur hangar, it would make my choice a lot easier. the other thing is, we will most likely take a 2 week vacation in tuscany in late august/early sept and i could probably find a bike there and ride it for a portion of our vacation. such dilemmas!!


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## 1Cebu

jjp .... you've got a lovely bike!!!


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## jjp

Thanks, I definately feel that I lucked into something with this, particularly after everything that I have read regarding current production frames, and their questionable origins.


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## Ride-Fly

jjp said:


> This is the one that I decided to go with, after learning that the Robobank coloured scheme frame that I was initially pining after had no serial number and had the aluminum BB shell. It's a bit more $$$, but also a bit more peace of mind. Frame is NOS and $3100.


Hey JJP, I thought the price was $2695 CDN which in US$$$ is about $2800. Why was yours that much more? BTW, was that $3100 US of CDN? Regardless, you got a beautiful frameset!


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## jet sanchEz

That same Rabobank frame was on the Toronto CL the other day. It was outfitted with a 9-speed Dura Ace group and the seller wanted $2000, it looked really nice.

Great frame you chose, keep us posted on the build!


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## jjp

Ride-Fly said:


> Hey JJP, I thought the price was $2695 CDN which in US$$$ is about $2800. Why was yours that much more? BTW, was that $3100 US of CDN? Regardless, you got a beautiful frameset!



The Rabobank frame (with the aluminum BB shell, and no removeable hanger) was $2700. The frame in the LX11 paint scheme was actually listed at $3700, but he knocked it down to $3100. It has the ti BB shell and the removeable hanger, and I suspect that os where the price difference lies. I'm sure that ti BB shell costs a bundle, and back in the day when that frame was current, it was elling for $4200 in Toronto. 

There is also something different about the two frames. The LX 11 that I bought is beefier at the seat and top tube lug, and the lug itself is cut differently than the Robobank frame. I think these changes must have been part of the elvolution in the frame. 2003 must have been the last year that frame was made before the release of the HP.


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## pete2528ca

I've always lusted after the Colnagos, but I (meaning my wife) have never been able to justify the expense. I have had Rossin's, Marinoni's and a Look, but always wanted to ride a Colnago.

Well, one of my friends owns a LBS in town. He is a huge Colnagomaniac, and had a C-40 from about 2003, just before the HP stays came into play. He rode it for four or so years, but never abused it. It had a few rock chips, and a bit of paint got stripped away on the inner support of the chain stays next to the BB, and just above the rear brake bridge. He thought it may have had a minor superficial crack, but it turned out to be the paint and clear coat that lifted away.

He ended up with a C-59 Italia, and his C-40 ended up hanging in his office. 

Well, I asked and asked if he would sell it to me. After a couple of months of bugging him, and a $200bottle of wine, I finally convinced him to let me have it.

I lightly sanded where he thought the superfical crack was, down to the carbon and like I said it was just paint lifting, and also sanded above the brake bridge to level off the paint and carbon. The brake bridge was an easy fix as it was just clearcoated carbon, so a light spray from my airbrush with clear was fine. On the inner stay, I dropped a little bit of primer, then airbrushed some closely matched enamel. The outcome was pretty close to original. The other little nicks were touched up by brush. I used some 3M clear vinyl to make a chain guard for the stay, and put some on the inside of the stays where I touched it up so it won't happen again.

I was looking at some of the entry model Colnago's that I guess come from Asia, but I would rather have a used Italian made C40 than a newly built Asian one.

All this to say I finally ended up with a C40 and couldn't be happier. I am in the process of building her up. Just waiting on a few parts to arrive from probikekit.com.

Here she is:


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## Ronde

Does anyone know if there is a serial number database or anyway to determine year by the serial number on C40's?


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