# TT Bike Vs. Road Bike Opinions (Own both)



## jcgill (Jul 20, 2010)

Hello, i have a common question that gets asked alot on here but i have a twist to mine...I am going to be doing the Ironman 70.3 in Benton Harbor, MI this August and hopefully a full 140.6 next year. 

Basically i am wondering if there is anything other than aero advantages thus saving time by riding a TT bike over a standard road bike in an Ironman 140.6 or 70.3 triathlon? 
Example: Does the TT bike geometry magically save your legs for the run more than a road bike would? etc.

Here is the twist:
I own 2 road bikes (Trek Madone and Cannondale CAAD10 both with full ultegra) and 1 TT bike (Aluminum Trek Speed Concept 2.5 with Sram Apex.)
I bought the TT bike because the price was unbeatable last summer during my LBS's Tour de France sale.

Now that i have been riding it, i feel faster and better on my road bikes (my garmin backs this up usually i am 1mph ish faster on the CAAD.)
So i was thinking about selling the TT bike and just using my CAAD10 for the Ironman events...possibly getting clip on aero bars for it.
I am just concerned about running after the 56 mile ride....

What would you guys do if you had to pick?

Thanks,
Jon


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Yes, a properly set up TT bike will save you for the run in a couple ways. One, it should be a more comfortable and more efficient position. The position should put more focus on the quads and relieve your hamstrings for the run. You'll be less cramped on the TT bike than a road bike with clips and able to pedal more comfortably as well as digest nutrition more effectively (No. 1 most important thing about IMs!). 

Second, because you are more aerodynamic, you'll save time or energy that can otherwise be used on the run. If you finish the bike .5 hours faster, thats 30 minutes worth of energy you can put into the run. Alternatively you can finish in the same time using less energy and be fresher for the run. Now if the question is converting the CAAD10 over to a TT bike with proper handlebars and an ideal position/forward saddle, then the difference diminishes significantly.

But remember, if you intend to use a TT bike or even clip ons, you MUST ride it often in the weeks and months leading up to the IM otherwise it won't do you any good because you won't be comfortable.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Other than lots of climbing and/or long rides, I've never been faster than my TT bike. Both fitted?


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## jcgill (Jul 20, 2010)

Yes, both are fitted. I think the big difference is that the Aluminum Speed Concept just feels cheap and flimsy while riding it compared to my drop bar bikes...Maybe the CF SC's are alot nicer, but no LBS around here stocks CF speed concepts to demo.

I know on a Top end TT bike like Macca's Lieto's Crowie's etc. vs. a similarly equipped drop bar bike everyone should be faster.

I guess a better way to ask my question is: What would be better?
Riding a very low end TT bike, or a Mid-High end drop bar bike.


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## trekman10 (Mar 19, 2006)

I would definitely go with the one that you feel more comfortable on. Do you plan on winning your age group? The little difference in aerodynamic time from one bike vs the other may mean very little compared to you struggling on the bike for 56 miles because your not comfortable.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

jcgill said:


> Yes, both are fitted. I think the big difference is that the Aluminum Speed Concept just feels cheap and flimsy while riding it compared to my drop bar bikes...Maybe the CF SC's are alot nicer, but no LBS around here stocks CF speed concepts to demo.
> 
> I know on a Top end TT bike like Macca's Lieto's Crowie's etc. vs. a similarly equipped drop bar bike everyone should be faster.
> 
> ...


A low end TT bike, as long as it works.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

> posted by jcgill: snip...Now that i have been riding it, i feel faster and better on my road bikes (my garmin backs this up usually i am 1mph ish faster on the CAAD.)





> posted by jcgill: snip...I guess a better way to ask my question is: What would be better?
> Riding a very low end TT bike, or a Mid-High end drop bar bike


Something is not right. With out seeing pics at the very least of you warmed up in position on both bikes at the pace you will race at it's pretty hard to help. If me, I'd rather ride the worst chinese carbon POS TT bike v. a top shelf road bike with clip ons. The geometry and therefore the position I am able to get into is very much more aero and really keeps the hip angle open which means more power in a more aero position. In other words, faster. Again, something just isn't right.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

woodys737 said:


> Something is not right. With out seeing pics at the very least of you warmed up in position on both bikes at the pace you will race at it's pretty hard to help. If me, I'd rather ride the worst chinese carbon POS TT bike v. a top shelf road bike with clip ons. The geometry and therefore the position I am able to get into is very much more aero and really keeps the hip angle open which means more power in a more aero position. In other words, faster. Again, something just isn't right.


Agreed. Other than uphill TTs, I'm consistently 1-2mph faster on the TT bike.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Agreed. Other than uphill TTs, I'm consistently 1-2mph faster on the TT bike.



Because you're not sticking up like a billboard, correct?


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## jcgill (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks for the opinions guys, i am going to work on my aero position and staying in it longer. Perhaps that is the problem as i tend to get bored and change hand positions constantly.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jcgill said:


> Thanks for the opinions guys, i am going to work on my aero position and staying in it longer. Perhaps that is the problem as i tend to get bored and change hand positions constantly.


Aero positions don't work if you can't stay in it. I set my TT bike up to have a fairly "relaxed" position since that TT might be part of a stage race or omnium weekend. I also use standard tri bars since I have more than a little tendinitis in my wrists as an occupational hazard. Straight aero bars kinda hurt.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

cda 455 said:


> Because you're not sticking up like a billboard, correct?


Mostly position, which includes the addition of an aero helmet, long sleeve skin suits, and shoe covers. This also includes a disc and deeper front wheel.


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

jcgill said:


> Now that i have been riding it, i feel faster and better on my road bikes (my garmin backs this up usually i am 1mph ish faster on the CAAD.)
> So i was thinking about selling the TT bike and just using my CAAD10 for the Ironman events...possibly getting clip on aero bars for it.


I did a 1/2 IM and full IM on a salsa elcampeon then bought a shiv. I made a lot of runs between the bikes with a powertap to try to demonstrate that the shiv was faster....and it might be but it might not...if it's faster it's in the neighborhood of 2-3 watts at 25mph so not much. It certainly looks faster. 

If you are clocking out faster on the caad10 then that is what I'd use, especially if it's about the same comfort. Bad legs on the run is probably from going too hard on the bike vs. some magical geometry. Faster is faster! 

Wind data on frames is always without the rider and with the rider the gains are quite arguable. I wish I hadn't bought the shiv, I'd be $3500 richer. But hey, it looks good, right?

Joe


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

If and when a TT bike is slower, there's something wrong. I'm sure a few racers might confirm this. If they were slower, nobody would have one.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Also if you're slower on a tt bike, you need to work/train harder. You use quads more on a tt position. The aft seat position of a road bike uses more of your hamstrings. You most likely need to strengthen quads and get used to generating power especially with the flat back position.


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## jcgill (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks for the help guys. I am working on adjusting the bars a little and making the aero position more comfortable. I rode the trainer for an hour in the aero position yesterday and it felt a little more comfortable.

I also just realized another potential reason why its slower, the stock gearing is pretty funky...50/34 up front and 11-28 in the rear, so its hard to find a good cadence with that low gearing and big jumps in ratios. I would like to try 11-23 in the back as i live in the flat midwest with a few rolling hills. 
I am also going to shop for deals on 105/Ultegra components, as the Apex FD seems to like to drop the chain no matter how well tuned it is. 

Thanks again for your advise guys, especially for convincing me that even the cheapest Chinese TT bike with proper setup can be ridden faster than any high end drop bar bike with the best components.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

FlatlandRoller said:


> I did a 1/2 IM and full IM on a salsa elcampeon then bought a shiv. I made a lot of runs between the bikes with a powertap to try to demonstrate that the shiv was faster....and it might be but it might not...if it's faster it's in the neighborhood of 2-3 watts at 25mph so not much. It certainly looks faster.
> 
> If you are clocking out faster on the caad10 then that is what I'd use, especially if it's about the same comfort. Bad legs on the run is probably from going too hard on the bike vs. some magical geometry. Faster is faster!
> 
> ...


It's not that a TT frame (by itself) being more aerodynamic compared to a regular road frame will make one noticeably faster. Rather, it's the potential position that the TT frame can allow a rider to attain that will reduce drag via greatly reducing frontal area. I say potential because it's possible you and the op can not take advantage of the TT frame for various reasons (big gut/can't get low, not flexible, mis fit with seat too far aft=hip angle problems, breathing issues due to fit...). 

Also, as stanseven alluded to below the position on a TT bike can be different enough that it may take some time on the TT bike to allow muscles to adapt to the different position. Anywho, after several months training on the thing I saw huge improvements in speed. As a roadie I spent about 25% of my time on the TT bike and the rest on the road bike. If I was into tri's I'd spend closer to 100% of my time on the TT bike. jmo


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jcgill said:


> Thanks for the help guys. I am working on adjusting the bars a little and making the aero position more comfortable. I rode the trainer for an hour in the aero position yesterday and it felt a little more comfortable.
> 
> I also just realized another potential reason why its slower, the stock gearing is pretty funky...50/34 up front and 11-28 in the rear, so its hard to find a good cadence with that low gearing and big jumps in ratios. I would like to try 11-23 in the back as i live in the flat midwest with a few rolling hills.
> I am also going to shop for deals on 105/Ultegra components, as the Apex FD seems to like to drop the chain no matter how well tuned it is.
> ...


Gearing is part of the equation, but will ultimately boil down to power. A 50x11 with good cadence is still plenty fast. Still, I like a compact on my road bike and ride a standard 53/39 crank on my TT bike. I sometimes think I'd like to treat myself to a new TT bike if I ever "outgrow" a standard crank on my current TT bike. Since I'm not a professional, I have several sprokets to go before I'd ever need bigger chainrings.

I would think something like a 11-23 with a compact might be a better choice or a 11-25 with a standard.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I was not a believer in TT specific bike, until I was riding with a guy on his TT bike, the same guy that I easily drop on the hill, even a slight hill. But on his TT bike on a flat ride, man... he looks so effortless as compared to me on my road bike with drop bars.
So if you want to save your legs and be relaxed and ready for the run, I'd say go TT bike.


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

woodys737 said:


> It's not that a TT frame (by itself) being more aerodynamic compared to a regular road frame will make one noticeably faster. Rather, it's the potential position that the TT frame can allow a rider to attain that will reduce drag via greatly reducing frontal area. I say potential because it's possible you and the op can not take advantage of the TT frame for various reasons (big gut/can't get low, not flexible, mis fit with seat too far aft=hip angle problems, breathing issues due to fit...).


Good Solid Point! 

Joe


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Really, the aero benefits of the frame itself are fairly minimal. The geometry of TT frames tends to be a little different than standard road frames, which allows for the rider to be a little more forward and have the ability to ride about as low as you can. Stuff like hidden brakes offer modest benefits at best.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Really, the aero benefits of the frame itself are fairly minimal. The geometry of TT frames tends to be a little different than standard road frames, which allows for the rider to be a little more forward and have the ability to ride about as low as you can. Stuff like hidden brakes offer modest benefits at best.


You bring up a point.


Being more forward; Does that mean there is more weight on the forearm pads or are you still balanced between the three contact points on the bike?

As a nOOB to TT bikes, it sounds like or appears as though you're placing much more weight on the forearm pads. Literally leaning against it.


As one who wants to do centuries and double centuries, I want to set up a road bike with aero bars. Leaning too much on the forearm pads doesn't sound comfortable while doing 200 miles.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

cda 455 said:


> You bring up a point.
> 
> 
> Being more forward; Does that mean there is more weight on the forearm pads or are you still balanced between the three contact points on the bike?
> ...


"Touring bars" are often used to help tuck in as well as offer another position to use on long rides. Pressure on the arms kinda depends on how hard you lean and how much ya weigh. You probably wouldn't want to spend the entire 200 miles in them. 

Generally speaking, "TT" bikes aren't meant for much more than a 40km ITT and fitted accordingly. "Tri" bikes tend to put the rider a little further forward to _save_ your legs for the final run, relatively speaking. The fit of tri bikes can be a little more relaxed since sometimes the bike portion can exceed 40km.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

jcgill said:


> I guess a better way to ask my question is: What would be better?
> Riding a very low end TT bike, or a Mid-High end drop bar bike.


TT bike. 

I'm of the opinion that body positioning (comfort and aero), wheels and helmet are the most important aspects of time trialing. Aero tubing, internal vs external cable routing, having the stiffest/lightest frame, and components are less important.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> TT bike.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that body positioning (comfort and aero), wheels and helmet are the most important aspects of time trialing. Aero tubing, internal vs external cable routing, having the stiffest/lightest frame, and components are less important.


Pretty much. The only thing I'd add is how valuable power meters can be. It makes pacing yourself during a race a no-brainer, especially if you have the luxury of knowing the course or how long the head/cross wind or climbs are. I have my state ITT dialed in to a tee. I know what I can hold for each section (depending on wind), which gives me the ability to work on my 5 and 10 minute power.

You can also use the PM to help refine your position based on output and speed on a nice section of flat land into a head wind. It's cheaper than traveling somewhere to do a wind tunnel test.


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## flyrunride (May 2, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Really, the aero benefits of the frame itself are fairly minimal. The geometry of TT frames tends to be a little different than standard road frames, which allows for the rider to be a little more forward and have the ability to ride about as low as you can. Stuff like hidden brakes offer modest benefits at best.


This. Get used to riding it too, maybe 75-90% vs your roadie. I just got a TT bike a couple of months ago too and it felt weird riding it at first, but after spending more time on it I notice I'm actually faster on it than my road bike. You have to get used to and be comfortable on the aero position and keep at it. Took me a while but I am now able to ride a long ride on the aerobars.


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## jcgill (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks for all the input everyone. We kinda got a little off topic but that was good conversation also.....

Basically i could have simplified my original post to say:
Using the same human person, in similar conditions. Would riding a cheap Aluminum TT bike with low end Apex, Tiagra, 105 etc. components be more advantageous than riding a high end Carbon Fiber drop bar road bike with high end Dura-ace, Sram Red etc. components.


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

Like cheap bike set up in the TT position with TT bars vs. a fancy high end road bike? TT position and TT bars should kill it.


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## mjengstrom (Apr 20, 2009)

In most cases, if you are slower on a TT bike, its usually fit related. Assuming of course, there isn't anything wrong with your TT bike like brakes rubbing, bb issues, etc. 

Assuming you can figure out why you are slower, I would use your TT bike. i would go back to your lbs or another trusted fitter to see if they see anything. 

You do need to stay in the aero position to see the benefits though. This may take some getting used to.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jcgill said:


> Thanks for all the input everyone. We kinda got a little off topic but that was good conversation also.....
> 
> Basically i could have simplified my original post to say:
> Using the same human person, in similar conditions. Would riding a cheap Aluminum TT bike with low end Apex, Tiagra, 105 etc. components be more advantageous than riding a high end Carbon Fiber drop bar road bike with high end Dura-ace, Sram Red etc. components.


More often than not, it's not the components holding a rider back. Frame shouldn't, provided it's the right size. Generally, most TTs don't have a ton of climbing, making weight less critical.

Agreed that a good fit/position and being able to hold that position are worth a lot. Don't forget to train yourself to do LONG intervals. My main TT has two long headwind sections at about 10min a piece, even longer on extremely windy days.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Virtually any properly fit TT bike with any level of components is going to give you more solo speed than the highest end road bike. It's mostly the position. If TT bikes weren't faster, the pros would ride road bikes in the TT events.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

And there's always the Di2 chimera approach: 




















But he'll never get aero like this:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

That position is insane!

I wanna say that I found position of clip-on aero bars felt a bit awkward on my road bike compared to the bars on my TT bike. My TT bike's saddle is also tipped downward a bit. When I got my TT bike in '09, I think Di2 was new and extremely expensive.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> And there's always the Di2 chimera approach:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your set up.


I'll probably end up doing the same for centuries and double centuries.


Also; Is that Levi L in the blue kit?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

It's not my setup. When I do TTs I borrow a friend's Quintana Roo. 

The Cashcall rider is not Levi. But he has the same initials.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I will say it again, that is one hell of a TT position! 

If I had $ and more talent, I'd love to get a 2nd TT bike with a higher gear ratio and more aggressive position.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

spade2you said:


> Really, the aero benefits of the frame itself are fairly minimal. The geometry of TT frames tends to be a little different than standard road frames, which allows for the rider to be a little more forward and have the ability to ride about as low as you can. Stuff like hidden brakes offer modest benefits at best.


the difference between the best TT frames and an average one would save him over 5 minutes on a 140.6 (that's just drag on frame, not rider position) and would be a lot more over a round tube frame, so it depends on your definition of 'minimal.'


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> the difference between the best TT frames and an average one would save him over 5 minutes on a 140.6 (that's just drag on frame, not rider position) and would be a lot more over a round tube frame, so it depends on your definition of 'minimal.'


That's awesome. 

Can you provide a link that compares the best to worst, and those TT frames in between?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> the difference between the best TT frames and an average one would save him over 5 minutes on a 140.6 (that's just drag on frame, not rider position) and would be a lot more over a round tube frame, so it depends on your definition of 'minimal.'


I have no doubt that you could also supply us with a study that confirms this. 

If my road bike were fully converted to a TT bike, it would be a hair lighter. By the time the hills, head, and cross winds are applied and if I could hold the EXACT same power on 2 rides with the exact same wind both times, I could see if there were a significant change. My power tends to be consistent on my rides, but never exactly the same and the same wind also doesn't happen. 

For average Joes, I'm sticking with minimal unless I get handed a round tube road bike with the same exact geometry as my TT bike.


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> the difference between the best TT frames and an average one would save him over 5 minutes on a 140.6 (that's just drag on frame, not rider position) and would be a lot more over a round tube frame, so it depends on your definition of 'minimal.'


I don't think this is true. All of the numbers come from the bike without a rider. Once you add the rider....well show me the data and I'll be convinced.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

FlatlandRoller said:


> I don't think this is true. All of the numbers come from the bike without a rider. Once you add the rider....well show me the data and I'll be convinced.


I'm sure there are oodles of scientific articles with all sorts of jargon and math, especially if the guys who built the frame are involved and trying to sell you their frame over another. The hidden brakes will save you X amount of time per 40km. 

I'm not denying that an aero fork and frame aren't going to help, but I think the claims might be a little overstated, especially since most of us aren't going to have the luxury to chrono various frames with identical rider geometry.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm of the opinion that the front area of the HT, fork, HB, and maybe the DT has the greatest effect on aerodynamics.


Beyond those surfaces air just tumbles and lose proper flow. 

I think 'trailing edge' brakes on the fork is way more important than the rear hidden brakes. In fact, I think rear hidden brakes are useless as far as aerodynamics goes because of the loss of proper air flow due to numerous reasons.

If one could keep the front wheel inline with the frames center line, an aerodynamic DT shape like the KVF tube shape on Trek frames would probably be beneficial.


If money was little or no object I'd build a bike for centuries and double centuries using:

TT blade fork with rake of a touring bike and trailing edge/hidden brakes.
DT like the KVF tube shape.
HT with some form of areo shape just on the forward-facing side (Snap on or perm. fixed).
TT cranks like Campagnolo's Bora Ultra.
Maybe HB set up like the Zipp Vuka Stealth.
Maybe Zipp 404 for a rear wheel and 202 or 303 for the front.


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

spade2you said:


> especially since most of us aren't going to have the luxury to chrono various frames with identical rider geometry.


Sure would be nice tho.....


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