# Trek Domane frame crack voids warranty: "abnormal riding"



## sturmeytrek (Jul 16, 2013)

My Trek Domane showed cracks on the down-tube around the front derailleur after six months of riding with zero crashes. The dealer and his Trek rep both looked at it and agreed that it was a valid warranty claim, with no doubts whatsoever. We sent the frame back to Trek, and Trek denied the claim saying the cracks were due to "abnormal riding". The head of warranty service at Trek told me that I had thrown the chain, evidenced by a small paint mark on the sprocket, and this was _possibly_ what caused the cracks. He said it was not a Trek issue, but due to my "abnormal riding", which he could not define, reiterating that he was not positive that the "chain event" caused the cracks. I asked him to define normal riding, and/or abnormal riding, but got nowhere. Pretty fragile frame, I'd say, as I only weigh 150 lbs. 

*From this experience I presume that Trek's warranty is worthless.* A thrown chain five months previous to the cracks showing up "maybe" caused a "total failure" (Trek's words) of the frame, and they would not send my frame back to me. The cost of a new frame is on me. 

This is my fifteenth Trek bike including kid's and wife's bikes. It's also my last.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

sturmeytrek said:


> My Trek Domane showed cracks on the down-tube around the front derailleur after six months of riding with zero crashes. The dealer and his Trek rep both looked at it and agreed that it was a valid warranty claim, with no doubts whatsoever. We sent the frame back to Trek, and Trek denied the claim saying the cracks were due to "abnormal riding". The head of warranty service at Trek told me that I had thrown the chain, evidenced by a small paint mark on the sprocket, and this was _possibly_ what caused the cracks. He said it was not a Trek issue, but due to my "abnormal riding", which he could not define, reiterating that he was not positive that the "chain event" caused the cracks. I asked him to define normal riding, and/or abnormal riding, but got nowhere. Pretty fragile frame, I'd say, as I only weigh 150 lbs.
> 
> *From this experience I presume that Trek's warranty is worthless.* A thrown chain five months previous to the cracks showing up "maybe" caused a "total failure" (Trek's words) of the frame, and they would not send my frame back to me. The cost of a new frame is on me.
> 
> This is my fifteenth Trek bike including kid's and wife's bikes. It's also my last.


Uh, its your frame and by law they must send it back. 
I am not buying it.


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## scott967 (Apr 26, 2012)

I guess that answers the perenial Trek question. 

scott s.
.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

They cannot "not" send your frame back. You bought it. They just want to keep it to study it and prevent future failures like this, a large recall/class action lawsuit. 

Ask for the frame back. When you take your car in to be fixed, whether they can fix it or not they don't keep it.


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## Social Climber (Jan 16, 2013)

Suspicious that this is the OP's first post. Maybe there is something more here than meets the eye.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

tihsepa said:


> Uh, its your frame and by law they must send it back.
> I am not buying it.


Me either. I've not had experience with Trek's warranty, but refusing to send your frame back or compensate you puts them in an indefensible legal position over what must be a small (to them) problem.


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## sturmeytrek (Jul 16, 2013)

*Good luck.*



CleavesF said:


> They cannot "not" send your frame back. You bought it. They just want to keep it to study it and prevent future failures like this, a large recall/class action lawsuit.
> 
> Ask for the frame back. When you take your car in to be fixed, whether they can fix it or not they don't keep it.


Trek says it is not safe to ride, and will not send it back. My dealer bought a new one for me, expecting to get a refund when the warranty went through. Trek won't refund the dealer's money, so I am expected to pay the dealer. We're both screwed.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Sorry dude, you are now obligated to fight this BS and carry on... we, the greater RBR community, want that damn frame back in your hands!


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

sturmeytrek said:


> A thrown chain five months previous to the cracks showing up "maybe" caused a "total failure" (Trek's words) of the frame, and they would not send my frame back to me. The cost of a new frame is on me.


So they told you about the crash replacement program... right?

Limited Warranty - Trek Bicycle
Loyalty Program 

However if a carbon part or frame experiences an impact, more expertise is required to determine its integrity than is needed for a comparable metal part.If you impact your bike and the force of the impact is absorbed by a carbon part, we strongly encourage you to replace the part, even if there is no indication of damage.We know how much you love your Trek bike and understand the burden of having to replace a non-warranty damaged bike frame or part.To help with that Trek offers our customers a Loyalty Program.This program can be used to obtain a discount on a replacement frame or component in the case of non-warranty damage.Contact your local authorized dealer for details.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

post = 1

Not saying trolling....but smells funny......

I had an issue with the infamous BB in the 2008 madones. Trek replaced my frame.

I do have some paint cracks in now, but they are surface. 

There seems to be more to this story. If not (it is as you say), call a higher up in the company and see what the shop can do for you.


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## davez26 (Nov 15, 2010)

Time to make a formal written request for return, followed by an attorney asking the same.


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## sturmeytrek (Jul 16, 2013)

It gets worse. They are charging me $700 for the frame, which I understand to be a discounted price. But they wouldn't send my dealer a red and white frame like the original, but a black and silver one. I had to replace the seatpost, seat, cables, stem, tape, and water bottle holders which were now the wrong color.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

sturmeytrek said:


> Trek says it is not safe to ride, and will not send it back. My dealer bought a new one for me, expecting to get a refund when the warranty went through. Trek won't refund the dealer's money, so I am expected to pay the dealer. We're both screwed.


Both Felt and Cannondle have sent "not safe to ride" frames back to me, because they were mine. Certainly if you execute some agreement that says "you can keep my frame in return for X" they can keep it, but not until you agree.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

sturmeytrek said:


> It gets worse. They are charging me $700 for the frame, which I understand to be a discounted price


So they are pro-rating a new frame? This is different from seizing your existing frame. If you don't like the deal, decline it and tell them to send back your frame.


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## sturmeytrek (Jul 16, 2013)

Frankly, if it's not safe, I'm not going to use it anyway. Something about screaming down Mt Diablo at 40 mph on a cracked frame does not a appeal to me.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

sturmeytrek said:


> It gets worse. They are charging me $700 for the frame, which I understand to be a discounted price. But they wouldn't send my dealer a red and white frame like the original, but a black and silver one. I had to replace the seatpost, seat, cables, stem, tape, and water bottle holders which were now the wrong color.


Color of the frame is irrelevant. What is relevant is you get your original frame back. It doesn't matter, it is your property. Them keeping it is the equivalent of theft.


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## Data_God (Oct 9, 2012)

sturmeytrek said:


> It gets worse. They are charging me $700 for the frame, which I understand to be a discounted price. But they wouldn't send my dealer a red and white frame like the original, but a black and silver one. I had to replace the seatpost, seat, cables, stem, tape, and water bottle holders which were now the wrong color.


Look we get your frustration. But here is the deal. The $700.00 is a discounted, heavily I might add, price so they are substituting it for yours at dealer cost. So that seems pretty equitable to me. As for the colors, well if they don't have it in the previous colors then they don't have it. 

And this also explains why you aren't getting the damaged frame back.

Bill


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Sadly, you've all been trolled. Myself included.


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## sturmeytrek (Jul 16, 2013)

I'm trying to look at it your way Bill, but the frame cracked for no identifiable reason. Clearly it was fragile in that spot. By the way, the replacement frame has a very different connection mechanism between the downtube and the derailleur, and it's supposed to be an identical frame. It also has a plastic piece on the sprocket to guard against chain-suck, which the first frame did not have. They made these engineering changes for a reason, so there's no doubt that they knew this was a potential problem.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I've had 2 Trek frame warranties in the past, each one was examined by the dealer I did not have to send the frames in. Both were replaced with equal or newer versions of the frame, and I never had any trouble with Trek's warranty. In fact I jokingly recommend people buy Treks with the lifetime warranty "if you want a new frame every few years"


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Data_God said:


> Look we get your frustration. But here is the deal. The $700.00 is a discounted, heavily I might add, price so they are substituting it for yours at dealer cost. So that seems pretty equitable to me. As for the colors, well if they don't have it in the previous colors then they don't have it.
> 
> And this also explains why you aren't getting the damaged frame back.
> 
> Bill


People get up in arms over less.


I was at the LBS one day when someone came in who just bought a Trek for a touring ride a week before...rode said tour through rain/mus/everything...came back discovered her tires were the wrong color (they were officially pink that year on that model). The LBS tried to talk the customer down explaining that the tires had gotten shot on a couple test rides, and that otherwise the bike was NOS equipment. Customer wouldn't relent and demanded their money back claiming they were defrauded into paying for the wrong bike. LBS even called Trek HQ and had Trek explain it to the customer.

Eventually the LBS refunded the money and took the bike back simply to make that customer go away.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

There are major holes in this story. I've dealt w/ Trek warranty for years and this is complete crap. The OP is still not telling the whole story.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Data_God said:


> The $700.00 is a discounted, heavily I might add, price so they are substituting it for yours at dealer cost.


Without knowing the Domane model, how do you know that is a heavily discounted price?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

DaveWC said:


> Without knowing the Domane model, how do you know that is a heavily discounted price?


Considering the framset-only for 2013 Domanes is currently selling for $2500-3300 retail I'd say unless the OP was riding a 5+ year old Trek...getting a new frame(set) for $700 is a discount....as for what he's getting he'd pay at least 100% more than what he is having to pay now.


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## sturmeytrek (Jul 16, 2013)

Yeah, I am telling it straight amigo. I'm as baffled as anyone, as is my dealer. Maybe I should ask the dealer for his invoices and credit receipt from Trek for the replacement frame before I pay him, which I will do as he should not be penalized for trying to help me out. But I did talk to the Trek head of warranty for a long twenty minutes, and he was anything but cooperative about it, and confirmed the warranty denial in no uncertain terms.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

People often start posting on internet forums when they run into a problem. It shouldn't make them suspect. (I've been biking since the early 1980s, and broke a Bianchi frame somewhere around 1988 BTW -- replaced without any fuss, although it took many months to get a new one). I just registered to get advice about a how to deal with a different thing breaking -- my ankle). I've bought over 10 Trek bikes for me and the family over the last 25 years, primarily because they are built well. I would be rather irate if this happened to me. Who the hell hasn't thrown a chain off the sprocket?


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Marc said:


> Considering the framset-only for 2013 Domanes is currently selling for $2500-3300 retail I'd say unless the OP was riding a 5+ year old Trek...getting a new frame(set) for $700 is a discount....as for what he's getting he'd pay at least 100% more than what he is having to pay now.


The 2013 Domane 4.0 sells for $2,000 complete. As well, the OP didn't say it was carbon. Not much info at all really.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

sturmeytrek said:


> This is my fifteenth Trek bike including kid's and wife's bikes. It's also my last.


Whatever. I had a problem once and they were extremely fair and prompt.

Putting your front derailleur on the down tube is definitely abnormal. Almost everyone puts theirs on the seat tube.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

Demand it back and just have Calfee or this guy Joe's Carbon Repair & Bicycle Painting fix it fo cheap. Then sell it and buy a LOOK......or maybe something in steel!



sturmeytrek said:


> Trek says it is not safe to ride, and will not send it back. My dealer bought a new one for me, expecting to get a refund when the warranty went through. Trek won't refund the dealer's money, so I am expected to pay the dealer. We're both screwed.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I agree, this poster even though he is new, doesn't sound fishy. I have seen this posted here before about them seizing frames. Lots if times people don't post until they are angry. 

A troll would have just kept saying that trek stole his frame. This guy isn't. 

It used to be warranty frames were rare. Now it seems a common problem as these bikes are pushing the weight envelope. 

Bill


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

A few month ago a rider on a ride dropped the chain on a climb. The chain hit the right chainstay and cracked that sucker. Frame was total of course. Despite what anyone says about how tough carbon fiber is, how resilient it is, steel is still real when it comes to durability!


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

Amen brother! I had my share of cracked carbon in the past. Steel will last....and give a great ride too. 



aclinjury said:


> A few month ago a rider on a ride dropped the chain on a climb. The chain hit the right chainstay and cracked that sucker. Frame was total of course. Despite what anyone says about how tough carbon fiber is, how resilient it is, steel is still real when it comes to durability!


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Yeah, cus steel never cracks...

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/steel-frame-crack-downtube-now-what-219002.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/cracked-casati-steel-frame-can-fixed-262925.html

Worth fixing minor crack in steel frame?

Deep DT crack -Steel frame

commuter - I keep breaking my road frames - why? - Bicycles Stack Exchange


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## mtnroadie (Jul 6, 2010)

Yeah Trek sucks!

Life time warranty my arse. They wont even replace my $60 flea market found heavily corroded Trek 2200 with a new shiny Madone.

In all seriousness you are doing the right thing, call them out. I would expect nothing short of great customer service from a large bike manufacturer like Trek. I think they owe you a new frame, period.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

sturmeytrek said:


> I'm trying to look at it your way Bill, but the frame cracked for no identifiable reason. Clearly it was fragile in that spot. By the way, the replacement frame has a very different connection mechanism between the downtube and the derailleur, and it's supposed to be an identical frame. It also has a plastic piece on the sprocket to guard against chain-suck, which the first frame did not have. They made these engineering changes for a reason, so there's no doubt that they knew this was a potential problem.


It sounds like the replacement frame is a newer model year. As far as I know bike manufacturers don't change their frame designs mid-season. This could also help explain why the paint scheme is different (new model year). 
If Trek is selling the new frame to you at a discounted price as part of their crash replacement program, they're keeping the old frame. That's the way it usually works. I'm guessing you had agreed to this or the LBS made that choice for you without telling you.

If, in fact, there is a design issue with the old frame, there should be a lot more people complaining about it and there might be a recall. Do your research.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mtnroadie said:


> Yeah Trek sucks!
> 
> Life time warranty my arse. They wont even replace my $60 flea market found heavily corroded Trek 2200 with a new shiny Madone.
> 
> In all seriousness you are doing the right thing, call them out. I would expect nothing short of great customer service from a large bike manufacturer like Trek. I think they owe you a new frame, period.


You have absolutely no clue what is really going on w/ the OP's situation. You've read only his side of the story which is full of holes and sounds nothing like the Trek warranty process i've used for years. The ONLY people that know the complete story are the OP and Trek warranty. You're spouting off that he should get a new frame, "period" and you have no idea what really going on. People like you give people like me (shop employee) grey hair. Given your (and everyone else on this thread) rather complete lack of knowledge of the situation, you're really not even entitled to an opinion.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DaveWC said:


> Yeah, cus steel never cracks...
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/steel-frame-crack-downtube-now-what-219002.html
> 
> ...


it's funny. the 2nd link was actually from me. 2011 was when i got back into roadie after a long time off and inherited the Casati frame. It was cracked when it hit the curb in a fall at speed. It has since been repaired with a plate. Scroll down in that thread and you'll see the pics for the fix. Bondo over, and painted with matching color. Frame is still riding like it was new! Cost of fix was about $50 from a welder, plus some time for painting from me. Try that carbon, can't. Everything breaks, but until carbon can be easily repaired, steel is still real.

And that Casati frame is a classic. You don't throw it away as if it's disposable. 17 lb bike and I still can keep up with the latest carbon tech on a club hammerfest. Carbon rides nice, but it's really overrated to me, and yes I have a carbon bike too.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Of course steel is real. It's a meaningless statement though, all bikes are real. Choose your frame and go with it. Seems infantile to say that because you prefer one frame type it's better than others. All bikes crash & all bikes fail. In this case the OP says he's had 15 Treks and now he's had a problem so all Treks suck. It's funny.

btw, where did the OP say this frame was carbon?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DaveWC said:


> Of course steel is real. It's a meaningless statement though, all bikes are real. Choose your frame and go with it. Seems infantile to say that because you prefer one frame type it's better than others. All bikes crash & all bikes fail. In this case the OP says he's had 15 Treks and now he's had a problem so all Treks suck. It's funny.
> 
> btw, where did the OP say this frame was carbon?


actually i'm assuming it's carbon lol most treks I see are carbon around here, they're like all over the place. In fact it's hard to find a new bike around here that is not carbon. So my bad if it ain't carbon. But I've seen carbon chainstay cracked that wouldn't happen on a steel.

And it's not infantile to say one frame material is better than another. I stated my opinions why I think one material is better, remember it's my opinion. How is expressing opinion over frame material been seen as infantile? I'll bet you didn't see the pics of my Casati frame which was repaired in that thread you listed.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

All of the carbon bashing just gets tiring. Now even in a thread where the OP hasn't said the frame was carbon, it becomes a carbon bashing thread. Trek bashing too. Oh lordy, and here I am riding a carbon Trek.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

The frame cracked from the chain merely hitting the chainstay? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, because that ain't near enough impact to crack the frame unless it was already damaged or stressed somehow.




aclinjury said:


> A few month ago a rider on a ride dropped the chain on a climb. The chain hit the right chainstay and cracked that sucker. Frame was total of course. Despite what anyone says about how tough carbon fiber is, how resilient it is, steel is still real when it comes to durability!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DaveWC said:


> All of the carbon bashing just gets tiring. Now even in a thread where the OP hasn't said the frame was carbon, it becomes a carbon bashing thread. Trek bashing too. Oh lordy, and here I am riding a carbon Trek.


I think you are taking what I wrote and turning it into a defensive debate that is not remotely on my mind.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

nOOky said:


> The frame cracked from the chain merely hitting the chainstay? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, because that ain't near enough impact to crack the frame unless it was already damaged or stressed somehow.


it was a transition dip where the rider was going downhill (in the big ring) and then hit a steep kicker where he needed to drop into the small ring. Now perhaps his shifting and time was a bad one, but it's absolutely positively possible that a chain can slap the chainstay hard enough to take chunk out of the stay. Notice how all mountain bikes have chainstay guard to prevent chainslap. Try taking the guard off and ride it for a few rides and tell me if the stay ain't ding up pretty bad. Maybe the stay already had a hairline in it already, don't know its history.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

DaveWC said:


> Yeah, cus steel never cracks...
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/steel-frame-crack-downtube-now-what-219002.html
> 
> ...


Ti is real.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

nOOky said:


> I've had 2 Trek frame warranties in the past, each one was examined by the dealer I did not have to send the frames in. Both were replaced with equal or newer versions of the frame, and I never had any trouble with Trek's warranty. In fact I jokingly recommend people buy Treks with the lifetime warranty "if you want a new frame every few years"


My LBS had a Madone 5.2 frame that came out of the shipping box with scuff marks on the side of the head tube. Not scratches. Not cracks. Just scuff marks. So minor that a less observant shop might have missed them. Trek sent a replacement frame.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

crossracer said:


> I agree, this poster even though he is new, doesn't sound fishy. I have seen this posted here before about them seizing frames. Lots if times people don't post until they are angry.
> 
> A troll would have just kept saying that trek stole his frame. This guy isn't.
> 
> ...


I would guess that the reason they "seize" the frame has to do with product liability, if the buyer decides to ride it anyway and it falls apart under him on one of those 40 mph descents. Or decides to sell it to an unwitting buyer and the same thing happens. Not saying the OP would, but there are people who'd do that.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Absolutely there are many people who would ride or resale a frame and put the issue onto someone else. 

And yes steel fails. But not from scratches. 

Bill


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## tbb001 (Oct 1, 2007)

sturmeytrek said:


> Trek says it is not safe to ride, and will not send it back. My dealer bought a new one for me, expecting to get a refund when the warranty went through. Trek won't refund the dealer's money, so I am expected to pay the dealer. We're both screwed.


This sounds nothing like the Trek warranty process.
Either your dealer doesn't know what they're doing, or the dealer is trying to scam you, or this is not the whole story.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

sturmeytrek said:


> My Trek Domane showed cracks on the down-tube around the front derailleur after six months of riding with zero crashes. The dealer and his Trek rep both looked at it and agreed that it was a valid warranty claim, with no doubts whatsoever. We sent the frame back to Trek, and Trek denied the claim saying the cracks were due to "abnormal riding". The head of warranty service at Trek told me that I had thrown the chain, evidenced by a small paint mark on the sprocket, and this was _possibly_ what caused the cracks. He said it was not a Trek issue, but due to my "abnormal riding", which he could not define, reiterating that he was not positive that the "chain event" caused the cracks. I asked him to define normal riding, and/or abnormal riding, but got nowhere. Pretty fragile frame, I'd say, as I only weigh 150 lbs.
> 
> *From this experience I presume that Trek's warranty is worthless.* A thrown chain five months previous to the cracks showing up "maybe" caused a "total failure" (Trek's words) of the frame, and they would not send my frame back to me. The cost of a new frame is on me.
> 
> This is my fifteenth Trek bike including kid's and wife's bikes. It's also my last.


This is a sad situation for a company that use to pride themselves on making great bikes and standing behind them. I was at an LBS in town today that sells Trek, a customer had the same issue as you, the employee in charge of warranty repairs said he should get a free frame based on the fact that the frame had not been in a crash...like you Trek denied the claim. I didn't hear what caused the cracks so can't say if Trek used the same excuse as they did with yours but it could be a pat answer.

This isn't (edit, forgot the ending two letters!) the first time this has happened with Trek, unfortunately due to the fragility of CF, especially those made in China, a lot of manufactures are coming up with excuses not to pay the warranty claims. 

After buying 15 Treks I doubt seriously if Trek cares if you don't buy another, they made their money off of you, plus their so large what's a few dozen mad customers a year matter to them? When they were a small family run business they cared, not any more. 

Try a Lynskey titanium bike next time, they ride better than CF, you will never have to worry about cracks or the possibility of the chain creating some sort of damage, or worry about abnormal riding damage.


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## Dale (Mar 13, 2004)

put the story on trek's faceback page so the hole world knows


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

Pics or GTFO.

What model of Domane?


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## champamoore (Jul 30, 2012)

I think mtnroadie was joking, dude.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

froze said:


> This is a sad situation for a company that use to pride themselves on making great bikes and standing behind them. I was at an LBS in town today that sells Trek, a customer had the same issue as you, the employee in charge of warranty repairs said he should get a free frame based on the fact that the frame had not been in a crash...like you Trek denied the claim. I didn't hear what caused the cracks so can't say if Trek used the same excuse as they did with yours but it could be a pat answer.
> 
> This isn't (edit, forgot the ending two letters!) the first time this has happened with Trek, *unfortunately due to the fragility of CF, especially those made in China*, a lot of manufactures are coming up with excuses not to pay the warranty claims.
> 
> ...


I suppose you have evidence to support the claim that CF bikes made in China are more fragile than the ones made in the U.S. If so, I would love to see it.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ph0enix said:


> I suppose you have evidence to support the claim that CF bikes made in China are more fragile than the ones made in the U.S. If so, I would love to see it.


The following was taken from here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ge...rbon-fiber-frames-really-better-128273-3.html

I am sorry if this issue has been addressed before, but the following article has been bugging me and I wanted to see whether people agreed with it. On the one hand I feel good about riding a US made frame. On the other hand I recognize that more and more components (like forks etc.) are made in the Far East, and cyclists are not dying like flies from fork failures. Is the anecdote about the rider fatality just urban legend? Is there something to their argument or is Fitwerx simply catering to the insecurities of well-healed roadies?

Article quoted from Fitwerx Newsletter - April 2008

A couple of days ago, we received an e-mail from a cyclist who had been reading our three part series on carbon fiber titled "Unraveling the Mysteries of Carbon Fiber" in Triathlete Magazine. Because it related to carbon fiber manufacturing and quality, he wanted to let us know about a situation in which a rider had recently died from an injury sustained when his mass produced (made in Asia under a well known manufacturer's name) carbon fiber frame catastrophically failed unexpectedly. At the heart of his e-mail was the question, how much does where and how a carbon fiber bike is built impact its safety and durability? 

The reality is that there are true differences between brands and approaches in regards to consistency of fabrication and quality and these differences are more apparent with carbon fiber than any other material. Unfortunately, these differences are also easier to conceal with carbon fiber than any other material. Hearing about this tragedy made us realize that this issue has gone beyond us finding a crack in a rider's mass produced bladder molded carbon frame when they come in for an Existing Bike Fit or are getting a tune. Quality of materials and fabrication is something we discuss regularly with people who are selecting a new bike and it is worth further discussion here, as we suspect that few bike buyers think about how their bike is made and by whom, assuming that the job was done right. Regardless of who may be at fault in the crash, the death of a cyclist illustrates that assumptions like this can be dangerous.

Ma ny people won't buy clothing or eat food until it is proven to be free of sweatshop labor or shown to be grown a certain way or in a certain place. Many others would not buy a car or motorcycle that was built by a sub-contracting company in China or India. Yet, when it comes to bikes, we have seen fewer and fewer people think the same way. We believe some of this is just because not enough people know the reality behind carbon fiber fabrication and how the name on the side of the bike relates to who actually constructed it. In many cases, the name on the side of a bike actually has little to do with who actually fabricated the frame beneath the paint. You owe it to yourself to learn a bit more about what you are actually getting and we are glad to help explain the reality, as this is an issue that has been under the surface of the sporting good industry for too long. For example, did you know that if 60% of the expense in a bike's fabrication occurs in one country, it can be claimed to be made in that country? There are manufacturers that put "Made in Italy" on some of their bikes and it really means "Designed and Painted in Italy". These carbon frames are molded in Asia, yet the Asian manufacturing expense is under 40% of the total cost of the frame - so little that the paint and design portions costs more. Do you really want to trust your safety to a bike where the materials and molding of the frame is the least expensive part of the whole process? Is it really safe or sane to look for one of the least expensive sub 1100 gram (2.4 lbs.) frames possible? How much risk are you willing to assume to save a couple dollars? 

One reason Fit Werx carries so many frames and bikes made in North America is that we actually do know who built the frame and we know their dedication to quality in materials and fabrication. We see fewer problems from these bikes than almost all that are made overseas and we know that is not just a coincidence. These companies do not cut corners or let a second rate product go out the door just to save a few dollars - if they were looking to do this, they would build in Asia. Do some of these frames cost more than a mass produced carbon frame flying off an assembly line in China, which are designed to be produced at the absolute lowest cost possible to maximize profit? Of course. However, especially with carbon fiber, can you really put a price on your well being and safety while riding? Just something to think about next time you wonder why that Serotta, Parlee, Independent Fabrication, Aegis or Guru carbon frame appears to cost more than some of the other options. The price certainly isn't because these companies are making more profit margin on each bike; if anything these companies make less margin than average compared to companies who have their frames built overseas.


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## HurdyGurdy (Jul 20, 2013)

crossracer said:


> I agree, this poster even though he is new, doesn't sound fishy. I have seen this posted here before about them seizing frames. Lots if times people don't post until they are angry.
> 
> It used to be warranty frames were rare. Now it seems a common problem as these bikes are pushing the weight envelope.
> 
> Bill


I am with you on this one - This is also my first post on this forum as I found this when looking if anyone had a problem with a Domane frame being cracked and TREK disputing it as a warranty. 

In my case the frame cracked after hitting a probably irregular speed bump which meant the bike got a bit of a jolt so I shot up and hit the top bar sliding off the saddle and this caused the top bar to crack. 

TREK claimed irregular riding and only offered to replace the frame under the crash replacement warranty. Luckily I have insurance and they agreed to pay the replacement frame and rebuild cost but fair to say I a don't really take the Lifetime Warranty claim any serious any more. The Domane is designed for the "Flemish Classics" rough roads so one would expect it to be sturdier than this.

What upsets me most is that I even tried talking to TREK directly and i was first given an invalid email to send and when using their own web feedback form to get in touch, no one bothered responding.

I am sure that opinions will wildly vary whether this warranty or not but i would expect a $2K bike to be able to deal with this especially given the claims they make about the principles behind the Domane series.

In comparison, my now little runabout Decathlon T5 gets more use as I at least trust that bike to survive a day on the road.

If anyone is in doubt this is true - happy to post pictures but will wait till I know for sure my replacement frame has arrived ;-) 

One thing - Trek made no claim to the frame when I mentioned to LBS insurance company wants to recover it post rebuild. They were happy about that.


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## JacksonDodge (Mar 26, 2006)

HurdyGurdy said:


> In my case the frame cracked after hitting a probably irregular speed bump which meant the bike got a bit of a jolt so* I shot up and hit the top bar sliding off the saddle and this caused the top bar to crack. *


That's _not_ a manufacturing defect!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

HurdyGurdy said:


> In my case the frame cracked after hitting a probably irregular speed bump which meant the bike got a bit of a jolt so I shot up and hit the top bar sliding off the saddle and this caused the top bar to crack.
> 
> TREK claimed irregular riding


I don't know of anyone that _regularly_ bounces off their saddle and lands on the top tube while riding. Your frame was designed and made to handle impacts encountered while _riding it normally_. Impacting the top tube w/ your junk is quite irregular. Not a warranty problem, sorry.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

HurdyGurdy said:


> In my case the frame cracked after hitting a probably irregular speed bump which meant the bike got a bit of a jolt so I shot up and hit the top bar sliding off the saddle and this caused the top bar to crack.


You must actually, not figuratively, have brass balls.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Amazing, a steel or titanium bike would have laughed at that stunt, not carbon fiber.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

froze said:


> Amazing, a steel or titanium bike would have laughed at that stunt, not carbon fiber.


Carbon isn't all bad...

Carbon fiber is disposable like a Bic Lighter! - Page 2


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## HurdyGurdy (Jul 20, 2013)

JacksonDodge said:


> That's _not_ a manufacturing defect!


As said i guess opinions will wildly vary on this - my point is more about fit for purpose. 

Whilst it may not be a manufacturing defect, my concern is about the rigidity of the bike regards small mishaps and in this case my opinion is that it should have been able to deal with this.

BTW this was not a heavy impact as otherwise i would be speaking with a slightly different pitched voice for the next few months :shocked:

Look not wanting to start a big debate about it but in my personal opinion the warranty is at least very flaky. Imagine I hit a pothole and the frame cracks - does that consist of abnormal riding ? 
It's a road bike so thing happen to it that put strain on it which it should be able to deal with.

I had a 15 yr old Merckx that was abused to death and stayed in one piece. 

So agree not a manufacturing defect but at least one can question fit for purpose as a road bike and hence my call upon the warranty.

Anyway - as said my little aluminium bike will be getting more mileage around town for now and save the big guy for the flat roads of the countryside


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## HurdyGurdy (Jul 20, 2013)

tvad said:


> You must actually, not figuratively, have brass balls.


Good thing impact was slight of center ... hehe


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## Samfujiabq (Jul 3, 2013)

High Gear said:


> Amen brother! I had my share of cracked carbon in the past. Steel will last....and give a great ride too.


Thought this was about a warranty,not about your love for steel.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

I raced in the 70s and 80s and remember lots of broken steel frames. Including my own POS Guerciotti and my friend's Raleigh 753.

Don't give me that "steel is forever" stuff.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

DaveWC said:


> Carbon isn't all bad...
> 
> Carbon fiber is disposable like a Bic Lighter! - Page 2


Those test are so real world like, according to that test a CF bike should have handled the OP's problem with, well with no problem. In the real world broken CF bikes are getting trashed and LBS's are having a lot of factory warranty stuff as well as selling replacement frames that just doesn't happen with most other material.

Here is a report of just one simple problem that occurs with CF bikes quite frequently:Perils of Bicycle Technology, Carbon Fiber, and More | Boulder Report | Bicycling.com And no material fails more catastrophically then CF does.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

froze said:


> Those test are so real world like, according to that test a CF bike should have handled the OP's problem with, well with no problem. In the real world broken CF bikes are getting trashed and LBS's are having a lot of factory warranty stuff as well as selling replacement frames that just doesn't happen with most other material.


The first two tests simulated running your bike into an immovable object. Sounds pretty real world like to me. The last test was no doubt intended to show that these frames aren't so fragile that laying the bike down destroys the frame. I figured that smacking the frame into concrete like a baseball bat was akin to the guy ballsmacking his top tube. There's no doubt that carbon frames are built to withstand damage from a certain type of impact and don't do as well from other types of impacts. In the real world all frame types get damaged in crashes and as they age. Everyone makes their decisions about what frame type to own and then tells everyone else that this is the right decision and all others are wrong.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

DaveWC said:


> The first two tests simulated running your bike into an immovable object. Sounds pretty real world like to me. The last test was no doubt intended to show that these frames aren't so fragile that laying the bike down destroys the frame. I figured that smacking the frame into concrete like a baseball bat was akin to the guy ballsmacking his top tube. There's no doubt that carbon frames are built to withstand damage from a certain type of impact and don't do as well from other types of impacts. In the real world all frame types get damaged in crashes and as they age. Everyone makes their decisions about what frame type to own and then tells everyone else that this is the right decision and all others are wrong.


I understand what those test are designed to do, problem is the test are not indicative to what is happening in the real world with the high evidence of broken frames and forks. And yes all types of frame material get crashed, but the damage caused by CF failure is sudden and complete and results in high number of breakage vs other material.

I'm not going answer anything else on this thread, it's making others angry because almost everyone owns CF bikes, and that's their right like you said.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

If I remember right, Reynolds 753 was a very thin walled tubeset that needed to be silver soldered and very fragile. Mostely meant for very light riders or mountain stages. Yes steel can break too. I had a few incidents with a few of my carbon bikes over the years that would never have bothered a steel frame. I had the hidden chainring bolt on my Record crank back out on a ride that gouged out the chainstay....didn't even know it was happening. If it was a steel frame I think I would have felt and heard it. One other time I was riding by the fair grounds when somehow my rear wheel picked up a "C" shaped piece of metal that locked up my rear wheel at speed. It hooked into the wheel and cracked my seatstay. Another instance that I doubt would bother a steel frame. 




Cinelli 82220 said:


> I raced in the 70s and 80s and remember lots of broken steel frames. Including my own POS Guerciotti and my friend's Raleigh 753.
> 
> Don't give me that "steel is forever" stuff.


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## rfeigen (Feb 25, 2014)

*not my experience*

In 2012 I took my 2010 Madone 5 in for service and the tech notice crack in the paint where the seat tube met the top (my gel bag was covering it)

He showed it to the trek rep and I had a new frame 2 weeks later. They never sent my frame back till after they did the swap. It was approved by the rep.

Also I do know that throwing a chain, and having it jamming is a common way frame crack so maybe he saw something that was suspicious. Did you ever throw the chain?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

rfeigen said:


> In 2012 I took my 2010 Madone 5 in for service and the tech notice crack in the paint where the seat tube met the top (my gel bag was covering it)
> 
> He showed it to the trek rep and I had a new frame 2 weeks later. They never sent my frame back till after they did the swap. It was approved by the rep.
> 
> Also I do know that throwing a chain, and having it jamming is a common way frame crack so maybe he saw something that was suspicious. Did you ever throw the chain?


While it's great you got a new frame, the area rep cannot "approve" a warranty. He would do the same exact thing I can do...he'd talk to our regional warranty rep back in WI and tell what he thinks. An online warranty claim would have to be opened, photos attached, and reviewed by the warranty dept at Trek. The area rep can help influence the end result but he can't just order up a new frame for a warranty problem.


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## rfeigen (Feb 25, 2014)

you may be correct, all I got was a call telling me there was a crack in the paint and they told the rep that was there that day they wanted me to get a new frame. Which Trek was going to provide. They assumed I would be fine paying the $150 to move the groupo (standard charge) to go from a 2010 to 2012.


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Probably meant seat tube. 



Cinelli 82220 said:


> Whatever. I had a problem once and they were extremely fair and prompt.
> 
> Putting your front derailleur on the down tube is definitely abnormal. Almost everyone puts theirs on the seat tube.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

kps88 said:


> Probably meant seat tube.


Thank you for clarifying that frighteningly confusing post. 


From July of last year.


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Lol..missed the date this thread started. Still..no one mentioned it. 



cxwrench said:


> Thank you for clarifying that frighteningly confusing post.
> 
> 
> From July of last year.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

rfeigen said:


> you may be correct, all I got was a call telling me there was a crack in the paint and they told the rep that was there that day they wanted me to get a new frame. Which Trek was going to provide. They assumed I would be fine paying the $150 to move the groupo (standard charge) to go from a 2010 to 2012.


Depends on where you buy your bike.

My Cannondale shop swapped my groupo for free. I only had to pay the $100 if I wanted it within 2 days.


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## boardstrapd (Jun 7, 2009)

Note to self: Install a chain catcher on all carbon fiber bikes I own now and in the future.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

This is definitely not an isolated incident.

I personally know someone with a similar issue with a Trek frame. Also, my LBS has seen a few cracked downtubes on recent Trek carbon frames. In all cases, Trek played a similar game saying it was "rider abuse".

I have also read some stories on Trek Madone carbon steerers failing catastrophically.

As they say, a warranty is only as good as the company that provides it. This one is obviously useless.

Knowing all of this, I will never buy another Trek bike.


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