# Spokes: DT Swiss vs. Wheelsmith



## John Nelson (Mar 10, 2006)

Are they both good spokes?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Yes.

-Eric


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

Interesting article.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Wheels.asp


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## John Nelson (Mar 10, 2006)

Yes, interesting article indeed.

Thanks to you both.


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## mtnbikej (Jul 28, 2005)

toonraid said:


> Interesting article.
> 
> http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Wheels.asp



Sounds like a grouchy old man who does not want to change his ways. "Well, I have been doing this for XXX nubmer of years and I ain't gonna change."

_I used to build wheels with DT spokes. Now I use Wheelsmith spokes. A few years ago DT began a program for bike shops where they teach mechanics how to build wheels DT's way. On DT's web site they claim that DT Certification "separates the experts from the amateurs". Well, guess what; I'm not DT Certified. Why not? Well, I guess I don't care for the attitude. If being certified means signing on to the idea that I'm some kind of "expert" and everyone else is an amateur, I'll pass. There were lots of expert wheelbuilders around before DT began their certification program. I suppose DT thinks I'm an amateur. But then, DT doesn't guarantee that your wheels will never break a spoke. I do. So which would you prefer, a plaque on my wall, or a lifetime guarantee?

Some people prefer Wheelsmith over DT, and some others prefer DT over Wheelsmith. I used to be in the DT camp. But in the year 2000, DT changed their spoke specifications which prompted me to look into other sources for spokes. After looking carefully at several other brands of spokes, I decided that Wheelsmith was making top quality spokes, and that I could offer my lifetime guarantee on wheels I build with Wheelsmith spokes as well. I now like the Wheelsmith spokes so much, I see no reason to order more DT spokes. _



Plus, he guarentees the spokes, not the hub or wheel. HE says he will replace for free any spoke that breaks, while you wait........"IF" you are local to him. How many people are going to ship thier wheels back to the East Coast to have 1 spoke replaced. Plus...if he is building the number of wheels that he seems to hint towards, he is buying spokes in bulk and is only out $.50-.90 for each spoke he has to warranty.


Personally at my LBS we see more issues with the Wheelsmith spokes than we do with the DT's.

mtnbikej


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

toonraid said:


> Interesting article.
> 
> http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Wheels.asp


I guess since I am Dt certified I am a elitist. I always found his guarantee that you will never break a spoke a little a little hard to take. I mean how do you guarantee something like that?

I do not use wheelsmith spokes at all because in my experience they break more then any other brand.


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## curlybike (Jan 23, 2002)

*Surprisingly*

I have decided to keep my comment about Mr. Whites wheels to myself.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I saw that article too and had to chuckle. Peter White is trying to put the vibe out there that it is magic to build a strong wheel. He is some form of mystic that has the vodoo to do it better. I think DT is just trying to catch a nitche with their program. They have a foot race right now with Sapim for the light/strong spoke race, and as of right now are falling behind a little.


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## Ken (Feb 7, 2004)

In my opinion a properly tensioned 32 hole 3 cross wheel should last for ages without breaking a spoke. Probably the rim would give out first. Irregardless of what popular brand of spokes were used.


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## Steve-O (Jan 28, 2004)

*Fwiw*

I have only a dozen or so wheels under my belt thus take my feedback with a grain of salt. Probably 80% of my builds have been with Wheelsmith spokes as they are easy to get though Mike Garcia. I have used both their bladed spokes (AE15 & XE15) as well as their standard spokes (DB14 & XL14). With DT spokes I have only uses the Revolutions and competition spokes.

The one thing I aways notice with Wheelsmith spokes as that the surface finish feels almost as if it was machined. It is slightly rough. The Wheelsmith bladed spoked are ovalized and the edges are very sharp. The DT spokes feel smoother and the butting transition is not nearly as noticable (I haven't used DT bladed spokes to compare).

FWIW, I haven't had breakage issues with either brand, but then most of my builds are fairly conventional 28/32H 3x...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Steve-O said:


> The one thing I aways notice with Wheelsmith spokes as that the surface finish feels almost as if it was machined. It is slightly rough.


The AE15s I bought had a rough finish, but the DB14s were smooth. Did you find the XEs to be rough like the AE15s?


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## Steve-O (Jan 28, 2004)

*Yep....*

The XE's seem look almost identical to the AE15's. They feel thicker at the ends (as expected) but they have the same oval profile and rough finish that the AE15's do....


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

From the article: 

"Wheelsmith's quality control is excellent. I give my lifetime guarantee on wheels I build with Wheelsmith spokes. Wheelsmith spokes are made from stainless steel. Wheelsmith DB14, XL14 and DH13 spokes are all "butted" spokes. That means that the thickness of the spoke is greater at the end than in the middle. For instance, the DB14 measures 2mm at the ends and 1.7mm in the center of the spoke. Since spokes generally only break at the ends, that puts extra strength where you need it most. The thinner section in the middle saves weight, and allows the spoke to stretch slightly as the wheel is subjected to stress while riding, resulting in fewer cracks around the spoke holes in the rim, and less stress at the elbow of the spoke. 
The transition between the spoke and the head on a Wheelsmith spoke is a bit different than on other brands of spokes. Instead of a sharp angle at the base of the head, the spoke has a smooth curved shape. The sharp angle on other spokes is a stress riser, and can cause the spoke head to pop off. I've never seen this happen with a Wheelsmith spoke, and I have seen it happen often with other brands. That's the primary reason I only build with Wheelsmith spokes." Any comment on this?


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

steel515 said:


> From the article:The transition between the spoke and the head on a Wheelsmith spoke is a bit different than on other brands of spokes. Instead of a sharp angle at the base of the head, the spoke has a smooth curved shape. The sharp angle on other spokes is a stress riser, and can cause the spoke head to pop off. I've never seen this happen with a Wheelsmith spoke, and I have seen it happen often with other brands. That's the primary reason I only build with Wheelsmith spokes." Any comment on this?


It is intereting that he mentions the sharp transition of the head as a stress riser on other spoke brands but fails to mention the sharp butting transition of Wheelsmith spokes which is also a stress riser. I have seen Wheelsmith spokes (all xl14's) fatigue and start stretching at the butt transition many times while I was working at AC (before they switched to Dt) but I have never seen any other brand of spoke do that before or since. 

One question to ask is Dt and Sapim spokes cost more then Wheelsmith even at the oem level and you don't see any wheel manufacturers using them, only Dt and Sapim.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Ligero said:


> I have seen Wheelsmith spokes (all xl14's) fatigue and start stretching at the butt transition many times while I was working at AC (before they switched to Dt) but I have never seen any other brand of spoke do that before or since.


I know of someone else who had the same problem with those spokes several years ago and has been bad-mouthing WS ever since. But other people have trouble with DT. I like the DB14s anyway for the 2.0/1.7mm size. I know Wheelsmith transfered production to the US ~1996 so maybe they had some teething pains... maybe. I'm still wondering why the aero spokes are so damn rough though... they didn't used to be. You've seen plenty of aero spokes... what would you say about the finish on the different brands? The roughness isn't super noticable until you get up close.

AE15 and DB14 shown below:


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

rruff said:


> I know of someone else who had the same problem with those spokes several years ago and has been bad-mouthing WS ever since. But other people have trouble with DT. I like the DB14s anyway for the 2.0/1.7mm size. I know Wheelsmith transfered production to the US ~1996 so maybe they had some teething pains... maybe. I'm still wondering why the aero spokes are so damn rough though... they didn't used to be. You've seen plenty of aero spokes... what would you say about the finish on the different brands? The roughness isn't super noticable until you get up close.
> 
> AE15 and DB14 shown below:


Cx-rays, aerolites and Pillar ti are not rough like that at all. Someone once told me why they were rough but I really don't remember what the reason was.

Spoke on the left is a Dt aerolite and the right is a Sapim cx-ray.


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*dt swiss spoke?*



ergott said:


> Yes.
> 
> -Eric


But here
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm
he says the spokes are not built for regular hubs, I think..?
Something about spokes not fitting in the holes, also there are washers by dt?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

steel515 said:


> But here
> http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm
> he says the spokes are not built for regular hubs, I think..?
> Something about spokes not fitting in the holes, also there are washers by dt?


There was a short time when DT made their spokes with a longer J to facilitate machine building... pretty sure they went back to the old shape, though. The long J was a poor fit to most hubs, leading to early fatigue failures.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Both are excellent spokes...*

I am using the Wheelsmith XE14 on my MTB wheels for over 2 years and never had an issues or have the wheels go out of true. These are disc wheels as well.

I use DT Aerolite spokes on my main raod wheels. Nice spokes, but I had one snap after a few trhousand miles. Looks like DT had a bad bunch of spokes form other reports. Otherwise they have been flawless.

Some builders prefer DT some prefer WS or Sapim. Sometimes prefernce is based on availablity or profit margin. Mostly though on the builder and which spoke he prefers.

You can't go wrong with either spoke if a competent builder is building the wheels.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> I am using the Wheelsmith XE14 on my MTB wheels for over 2 years and never had an issues or have the wheels go out of true. These are disc wheels as well.


Curious... what is the finish like on your xe14s, compared to the aerolites?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

rruff said:


> Curious... what is the finish like on your xe14s, compared to the aerolites?


sMOOTH


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> sMOOTH


Seems to be variable then. I have an email in to Wheelsmith on this...


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*Machine spokes*



rruff said:


> There was a short time when DT made their spokes with a longer J to facilitate machine building... pretty sure they went back to the old shape, though. The long J was a poor fit to most hubs, leading to early fatigue failures.


Why don't they make separate line of spokes for machine building


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*spoke hole hub wear*



rruff said:


> There was a short time when DT made their spokes with a longer J to facilitate machine building... pretty sure they went back to the old shape, though. The long J was a poor fit to most hubs, leading to early fatigue failures.


When I took apart Dt spokes from my wheel, the campy hub had indentations on it (was 3x). Does this happen for all spoke brands? Also the nipples (brass) were slightly black.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

steel515 said:


> When I took apart Dt spokes from my wheel, the campy hub had indentations on it (was 3x). Does this happen for all spoke brands? Also the nipples (brass) were slightly black.


The indentations are a good thing... it means that the spoke is conforming to the flange... or rather the flange is conforming to the spoke. It happens on all aluminum hubs. Don't know what black nipples means... unless they were dirty.


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

what is


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## lawrence (May 17, 2005)

I had a wheel, Alex R500, on my road bike that was breaking spokes every 75 miles. I broke 11 spokes before the LBS replaced the wheel. I don't know who made the spokes but I felt they were too small, they were 1.8mm and I felt they should have been 2.0mm. It was only the back wheel that was breaking the spokes, all except for one on the cassette side.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Fatigue vs. stretch*



Ligero said:


> It is intereting that he mentions the sharp transition of the head as a stress riser on other spoke brands but fails to mention the sharp butting transition of Wheelsmith spokes which is also a stress riser. I have seen Wheelsmith spokes (all xl14's) fatigue and start stretching at the butt transition many times while I was working at AC (before they switched to Dt) but I have never seen any other brand of spoke do that before or since.


I think you are mixing up fatigue failure with yielding (elastic failure). Fatigue is accumulated damage over many load cycles. It causes parts to crack, but generally does not cause them to stretch. Most spoke failures in use are fatigue failures. In a spoke fatigue failure, the wheel does not go out of true before final failure (as it would if the spokes stretched), but instead the spokes fail suddenly with little warning.

Yielding, or elastic failure, occurs when the stress in a part exceeds the material's yield strength (also called "elastic limit"), and results in a permanent deformation (stretch). Spokes do not exceed their yield point in use, so do not "stretch" during normal usage. However, spokes can be loaded during wheel building in ways that they are not loaded in use, so spokes can sometimes yield during building. In particular, since spokes are made from small diameter wire, they are not very strong in torsion, and at high tensions the nipple turning torque (friction torque) may exceed the spokes' torsional yield strength, causing the spokes to twist and "neck down" (stretch). When this happens, the spokes will yield at their point(s) of highest localized stress. If the butt-transition is very sharp, a stress concentraion may occur right at the transition point, so they may yield here first. Another common point of yielding is at interlaced crossing points, where the spokes must bend over one another.

I haven't used too many Wheelsmith XL or Sapim X-Ray spokes, but I've had a few DT Revolution spokes yield during tensiong at both the butt transition and at the interlaced crossing point.

Of course, a good way to reduce the tendency to yield the spokes during building is to momentarily "unload" the spoke when turning the nipple, to reduce the friction in the threads. This can be done by pressing on the rim at the spoke, either radially or laterally.

Although this ultra-butted spokes have a greater tendency to yield during building, because they don't experience torsional stresses in use they won't yield (stretch) during use after they have been built and tensioned.


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## jplain (Apr 14, 2006)

Those people who talk about the magic art of wheelbuilding like it was a secret passed down to them by medieval monks are idiots. Several years ago I built one wheel and am pretty good at truing so I decided to build up some mountain bike wheels with DT revolution spokes, mavic 618 rims, and alloy nipples. I used the procedure off the harris cyclery site and took my time building the wheels and these are probably the best wheels i've ever owned- and only the second time i've built a wheel. I've ridden them hard for almost a year and only had to true them once, and that was just to make them perfect - i didn't really need to. 

about a decade ago i had some road racing wheels built up with 14G DB wheelsmiths by an expert wheel builder and eventually after several thousand miles of racing/training on bad new england roads started breaking the freewheel side spokes. To make a long story short I found them no more reliable than DTs and maybe overall a little less reliable, to say you'll never break a wheelsmith is nonsense. Of course maybe they're made better now but I always thought the machined butted sections were kind of suspect, I'll stick with DT revolutions from now on since they are super light and super strong and not as hard to work with as people claim, albeit slightly expensive - and as far as I know wheelsmith doesn't make a spoke as light as this one except maybe the 15/17/15 spoke which i definitely would not use.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

jplain said:


> I always thought the machined butted sections were kind of suspect,
> 
> - and as far as I know wheelsmith doesn't make a spoke as light as this one except maybe the 15/17/15 spoke which i definitely would not use.


Unless your spokes failed at the butted section there was nothing wrong with it. WS claims the butt is forged... it just has a sharper transition than DT.

WS makes the XL14 which is the same as a Rev or Sapim Laser, 2.0/1.5/2.0. The 15/17/15 spokes are the DB15 (1.8/1.55/1.8) and the XL15 (1.8/1.5/1.8) which should work fine... don't know why you wouldn't want to use them. 

I recently found out that WS was bought by Hayes, and they will be moving production from Montana to Wisconsin... sometime. At any rate, they aren't answering my emails...


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