# Obey the frickin rules of the road!



## dreww (Jan 22, 2004)

I'm off this week so its my turn to take the kids to summer camp at the local University. 

Why oh why do the vast majority of cyclists totally ignore traffic lights and stop signs? Seeing a fit fella on a Cervelo R5 blow a 4 way stop and flip off a car who did a darn good job of avoiding him really makes my blood boil.

I have been a cyclist for 30 years and have abided by the rules as if I were behind the wheel of a car. Riding like a moron really makes us look bad. And let’s be honest, we hardly need and more bad publicity with the general motorist public.

Was it just a bad day?, I am usually at work by 7am so I do not see most commuters.

Your thoughts?


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

dreww said:


> I'm off this week so its my turn to take the kids to summer camp at the local University.
> 
> Why oh why do the vast majority of cyclists totally ignore traffic lights and stop signs? Seeing a fit fella on a Cervelo R5 blow a 4 way stop and flip off a car who did a darn good job of avoiding him really makes my blood boil.
> 
> ...


Do you come to a complete stop and put a foot down at *every* stop sign ?. Do you live in an urban area with a LOT of stop signs and red lights ?. Ever got caught at a light whose sensor will not trigger for a cyclist ? and no cars in sight. My stock answer that I've used on drivers on the are rare occasion I've been spoken to, is "Yeah, you pick which laws you don't want to follow. YOU speed. I run stop signs". 

Reason for the questions is it's a grey area, sometimes based on the location, time of day, etc.... Your description is a valid statement on idiots on bicycles, but it's pretty much the norm for cyclists to not come to complete stops at stop signs. 

I don't. 

My criteria is if there are no cars in sight, or far enough from the intersection to not matter, then I won't stop. If I know the intersection well enough and there's good sight distance, I won't even slow. If I know the intersection and know it can be busy, I'll slow. If no cars in or near, I'll roll thru. Ditto stop lights at little used intersections, I'll look and roll if clear. 

I also pay attention to the situation and try to accommodate driver whenever possible by doing things like waiting patiently behind cars at a busy intersection and not running the light, not lane splitting, not riding up the shoulder at an intersection where someone might do a right turn on me with no turn signal, not stopping in a right turn lane when they can do a right on red, etc... In other words, trying to cycle smart and not piss off motorists. 

My commute in Brooklyn is long enough (2 hrs one way) that if I had to stop and wait at every light, or stop and put a foot down at every stop sign, my commute time might be a 1/2 hr. longer and that's not acceptable.

Note that some states, Idaho and Oregon I believe, allow roll thru's of stop signs for cyclists in certain circumstances. 

I do look at dismay at those so-called "experienced enthusiast" cyclists doing dumb things, then getting annoyed when called on it, but around here, the larger problem is folks riding the wrong way in traffic, wearing dark clothing at dusk, etc... and ALL of those instances are vastly outnumbered by the examples of poor and dangerous driving. So my attitude is every time I hear or read about the NYC cops "cracking down" on cyclists, I think their time would be much better spent cracking down on bad drivers.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

Steve B. said:


> Note that some states, Idaho and Oregon I believe, allow roll thru's of stop signs for cyclists in certain circumstances.


I'm an Idaho resident and yes, legally bikes do not need stop at a stop sign - only slow to a safe speed and follow the standard "right of way" laws. We do have to stop at red lights, but can proceed afterward (on red) if it's clear.

But to the OP's remarks, yes, riders that blatantly disregard traffic laws are annoying and give cyclist a bad name. It's hard to complain about "bad" drivers, when there are an equal number of "bad" cyclist on the road.


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## dreww (Jan 22, 2004)

My biggest issue has always been that if a bad maneuver is made while driving a car (mistake or intentionally negligent maneuver) the worst that will happen is a damaged vehicle. Running a stop sign etc, etc

However there is a far bigger risk when on a bike, i.e. possible DEATH! Why take the risk?

I’m no angel, I speed when I drive, roll the odd stop sign (on my bike and when clear) – I guess what I'm saying is I try and be on my best behavior when on 2 wheels as its my best chance of survival - or at least my best chance when I'm in court!

Stay safe


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## mcsqueak (Apr 22, 2010)

Steve B. said:


> Note that some states, Idaho and Oregon I believe, allow roll thru's of stop signs for cyclists in certain circumstances.


Just to clarify, that is a law in Idaho but NOT Oregon. I live in Oregon and it was up for a vote a few years ago but failed to pass.

I stop at all traffic lights, but treat stop signs as yield if no one is around. If others are around I'll stop at stop signs. Just yesterday I had to run a traffic light because I had sat through it for two cycles and it wasn't changing for me... somewhat annoying but that rarely happens.


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## jrm (Dec 23, 2001)

*It's not worth getting all wound up*



dreww said:


> I'm off this week so its my turn to take the kids to summer camp at the local University.
> 
> Why oh why do the vast majority of cyclists totally ignore traffic lights and stop signs? Seeing a fit fella on a Cervelo R5 blow a 4 way stop and flip off a car who did a darn good job of avoiding him really makes my blood boil.
> 
> ...


about something you cant control. Just do as your doing and youll be fine.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

dreww said:


> I'm off this week so its my turn to take the kids to summer camp at the local University.
> 
> Why oh why do the vast majority of cyclists totally ignore traffic lights and stop signs? Seeing a fit fella on a Cervelo R5 blow a 4 way stop and flip off a car who did a darn good job of avoiding him really makes my blood boil.
> 
> ...


Your right, and your not having a bad day because you stayed alive another day because you follow the rules of the road and ride safe. Keep it up, don't let other cyclists who think their kings of the road and have no need for stinkin rules govern the way you ride. I've seen, known, or heard of too many cyclists who thought they didn't have to follow the rules and get seriously injured or killed, and most accidents involving car vs bicycle is due to the cyclist failing to obey signs. Also keep in mind any traffic sigh or signal you fail to obey also opens you up for a ticket should a cop see you and chose to give you one, and in most states a traffic violation on a bicycle goes against you on points.

I've been riding for over 40 years myself. But having said all that sometimes I too don't follow the rules. In the city I will follow the rules all the time including stopping and putting my foot down, however if the opposing traffic is very light and the closest oncoming car is at least a block away I may go, but I do risk a ticket if I get caught. In the country my rules change a bit, I will slow down to about 5 to 20 mph for stop signs depending on how far I can see, I'll make 3 checks for traffic then if all clear I run the stop; again though that action puts me at risk for a ticket.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

froze said:


> I've seen, known, or heard of too many cyclists who thought they didn't have to follow the rules and get seriously injured or killed, and most accidents involving car vs bicycle is due to the cyclist failing to obey signs. .


Froze, you made a similar claim on another post and I'd like to see some statistics proving this, because it sounds like opinion based on personal observation instead of fact.

Googling "reasons for car - bicycle accidents" shows any number of websites quoting a lot of different sources, the Toronto PD, the California Highway patrol, The FHA, etc.... with the statistics all over the map from cars being at fault 90% of the time:

Cyclists Cause Less Than 10% of Bike/Car Accidents : TreeHugger

To assorted other numbers, cars 51/bikes 49, etc...

The quote from the Fed's was "The federal government, for one, doesn't know. "Fault is difficult to determine," a spokeswoman for the Federal Highway Administration tells Shots. Her office has never produced national data answering this question.

The Toronto PD study showed:

"The most common type of crash in this study involved a motorist entering an intersection and either failing to stop properly or proceeding before it was safe to do so. The second most common crash type involved a motorist overtaking unsafely. The third involved a motorist opening a door onto an oncoming cyclist"

California shows:

"The most common violations that led to accidents were riding on the wrong side of the road, refusing to yield to an automobile's right of way, unsafe speed and ignoring traffic signals and signs".

I believe it can be very regional as to reasons, based on the design of the highway infrastructure, numbers of cyclists commuting in an unsafe manner (Wrong side of the road, lack of high visibility clothing, ignoring traffic signage), but to flat out call it due to ignoring signage is in error. 

But I'm curious as to your apparent attitude that is seemingly so very negative towards cyclists, while you yourself are seemingly an avid rider, posting here on a cycling forum. Yes we all see other cyclists doing really dumb and dangerous things, but in my own experience, the incidents of a car doing something dangerous that may get me killed are far greater the numbers of times I see a cyclist riding in a dangerous manner. And I live in and commute by bike in an urban area and see a lot of examples of riding where I know these folks are just asking for trouble.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

dreww said:


> Why do the vast majority of cyclists totally ignore traffic lights and stop signs? Your thoughts?


because the International Brotherhood of Scofflaws union regs requires us to violate at least five traffic laws per day.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

mcsqueak said:


> Just to clarify, that is a law in Idaho but NOT Oregon. I live in Oregon and it was up for a vote a few years ago but failed to pass.
> 
> I stop at all traffic lights, but treat stop signs as yield if no one is around. If others are around I'll stop at stop signs. Just yesterday I had to run a traffic light because I had sat through it for two cycles and it wasn't changing for me... somewhat annoying but that rarely happens.


Yep, this is my approach as well. I feel bad when I blow thru a stop sign and then see a car is indeed within sight. D'oh!
Of course, I see cars do the rolling stop/California stop all the time, so I don't feel too bad..

I admit that I do get ticked off at cyclists that do that bulls#*t turn-right-u-turn-turn-right move to blow thru a stoplight. No one's buying that, you asshats. Might as well just blow thru and keep your precious momentum up.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

There's nothing worse than a Cervelo R5!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

FARS Encyclopedia

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/95Pedalcyclists.pdf

This is just a site showing the drop of fatalities from not wearing a helmet to wearing a helmet: IIHS-HLDI

When the motorist and bicyclist were on initial crossing paths, the three most frequent categories of crashes were:
1.) Motorist failed to yield right-of-way at a junction (21.7 percent of all crashes). Of these crashes, more than a third (37.3 percent) involved a motorist violating the sign or signal and drove into the crosswalk or intersection and struck the bicyclist.

2.) Bicyclist failed to yield right-of-way at an intersection (16.8 percent of all crashes). Within this category, 38 percent involved a bicyclist who had stopped for a sign or flashing signal and then drove into the intersection and was struck by the motor vehicle.

3.) Bicyclist failed to yield right-of-way at a midblock location (11.7 percent of all crashes). Almost half of these crashes (43.4 percent) involved a bicyclist riding out into the roadway from a residential driveway.

What's crazy is that I once read that prejudice also looks to be slightly related to money and education in regards to cycling accidents: While 15 percent of those who make less than $50k a year blame those on two wheels, that number jumps to 22 percent for those who make more than that a year. Further, while 14 percent of those who didn't graduate from college blame cyclists, 25 percent of those with a college degree do.

Then there's this from ABC news: abc7news.com I-Team: Bikes vs. Cars: Cyclists Cause More Accidents 

Just interesting reading: Editorials & Opinion | Cyclists Must Upgrade Traffic-Safety Skills | Seattle Times Newspaper


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## andleo (May 30, 2009)

I hear this complaint about cyclists often however when I as a motorist and cyclist that stops at stop signs I see far more cars run stop signs than cyclists. Not talking about just rolling the stop but running the stop sign when someone is already at the intersection stopped or not stopping after the car in front of you has gone.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

andleo said:


> I hear this complaint about cyclists often however when I as a motorist and cyclist that stops at stop signs I see far more cars run stop signs than cyclists. Not talking about just rolling the stop but running the stop sign when someone is already at the intersection stopped or not stopping after the car in front of you has gone.


It's funny how two people can see thing dramatically different. For the past 40 plus years that I've been riding a bicycle and driving a car on all sorts of cities in different states, I saw the exact opposite.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I don't think most cyclists blow through stop signs, I do think we often look, listen for oncoming traffic. I'm not going to go out of the way to kill myself, but at the same time I've been running red lights and making sure there's no cars coming when I "blow" through a stop sign. 

The real problem is with drivers, by it's very nature a car is heavy, has a very limited field of view, the driver can't hear anything, many of them are yacking on thier cellphones or playing with their makeup and hair. 

On my daily commute back and forth to work I pass through several stop signs and out run the cars, of course I can see in all directions, but many drivers will honk their horns because they're pi**ed that they can't get away with it. I always tell them to get their fat arse out of a car and on a bike have some fun as well.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

heathb said:


> I don't think most cyclists blow through stop signs, I do think we often look, listen for oncoming traffic. I'm not going to go out of the way to kill myself, but at the same time I've been running red lights and making sure there's no cars coming when I "blow" through a stop sign.
> 
> The real problem is with drivers, by it's very nature a car is heavy, has a very limited field of view, the driver can't hear anything, many of them are yacking on thier cellphones or playing with their makeup and hair.
> 
> On my daily commute back and forth to work I pass through several stop signs and out run the cars, of course I can see in all directions, but many drivers will honk their horns because they're pi**ed that they can't get away with it. I always tell them to get their fat arse out of a car and on a bike have some fun as well.


So even though most known reasons for cycling accidents are the result of the cyclist to fail to obey a sign, you don't still don't think most cyclists are doing that? I strongly disagree, read my previous post as to why.

Now there are a high number of accidents were fault is not known, such as did the cyclist weave into a car, or did the car weave into the cyclist, these type of accidents happen in cars too and fault cannot be established without an eyewitness. Some times a car or cyclist will blow a red light or a 4 way stop and since there are no witnesses or cameras it becomes he said she said situation. But where the cause of the accident is known, the blame usually lies with the cyclist. Also please note, in this you must leave out children and their bicycle accidents, these accidents are almost always the child's fault but a child doesn't understand a lot of things when it comes to riding safely or obeying signs, but an adult does; most fatalities on a bicycle is a child...which is sad of course; which means that when we're driving our cars we must pay real close attention to our surroundings.


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## andleo (May 30, 2009)

froze said:


> It's funny how two people can see thing dramatically different. For the past 40 plus years that I've been riding a bicycle and driving a car on all sorts of cities in different states, I saw the exact opposite.


to be fair I see more cars not obeying stops because there are more cars out there. I see plenty of people on bikes go through stop signs with out looking. Not stopping at stop signs is not only a cyclist issue


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

froze said:


> FARS Encyclopedia
> 
> http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/95Pedalcyclists.pdf
> 
> ...


Not crazy at all. These are the "educated entitled".. you know, the ones with a college degree who always feel they're right.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Recently I read a newpaper columm (one of the Socal newspapers) that states that 60% of the car-cyclist accident involves the cyclist being hit from behind. This makes sense since I do see lots of cars encroach very close to the right shoulder.

The key to survival on the road is TO BE SEEN. Wear something that will make the cagers see you. Safest bet is to ride in a group of 3-5 riders so they can see you better.

If you ride solo, then I'd definitely wear one of those florescent or orange hi-visibility vest. Think about this. If every cyclist were to wear this vest, then over time, drivers' eyes will be trained and conditioned to look for cyclists on the road. But I understand that it's much cooler to wear your Garmin/Cervelo or Cannondale/Liquigas kit.

When I ride solo, I wear my hi-vis vest. Drivers see me easier, they also tend to make eye contact with me more, and in some cases would wave for me to go. And when I make a turn, I make sure I signal my hand by waving like a maniac well ahead of the turn. Yes, I may look like one of those old geezers on one of those 1980-hybrids with my hi-vis vest and all the hand signaling, but so far this works out well for me.

Flipping off drivers (especially when you're as much at fault) is not a good way to make friends with people that may potentially hit you on the road.


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## seacoaster (May 9, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> Recently I read a newpaper columm (one of the Socal newspapers) that states that 60% of the car-cyclist accident involves the cyclist being hit from behind.


I would question that statistic. The other numbers I have seen are in the 3 - 4% range.

Far more accidents are due to cars turning in front of cyclists.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

aclinjury said:


> When I ride solo, I wear my hi-vis vest. And when I make a turn, I make sure I signal my hand by waving like a maniac well ahead of the turn.


whatever works for you.

I'm going to pass on the construction worker look and the mad signaling...I wear mostly black kit and just point in the direction I intend to turn. having good results so far.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

froze said:


> But where the cause of the accident is known, the blame usually lies with the cyclist.


Froze, I respect your opinion, but I thinks it's clear that there are no good statistics to back up this particular conclusion. And by good, I mean solid data that indicates and is consistent from locale to locale and region to region. Witness the fact that the Toronto PD statistics are so different then the CHP. Part of the problem lies with the accident reports themselves that do not typically require the reporting police officers to establish blame as well as reason, often times due to the fact that there were two witnesses, with one now dead. NYC has voluminous statistics going back 15 years, but has no idea as to who is at fault in nearly all the cases, as that's not part of the reporting process. And that in itself is a huge problem, making it difficult to make the infrastructure safer when you don't really know the reasons for all the deaths. 

I for one happen to agree with your opinion for my particular area, in terms of percentage at blame. I live in an area with a large immigrant population and see large numbers of cyclists that obviously use bikes as commuter vehicles, while failing to wear helmets, use reflectors or lighting, wearing dark clothing, riding on and off the sidewalks and wrong way in traffic. Which is why I doubted your comment about the primary cause of blowing lights and stop signs. Locally the problem is more wrong way riding. But even here on Long Island, NY, the police simply do not keep track of the reasons, merely reporting the accident that occurred. It pains me to see these folks getting run down as often as they do, but when I read the news report, the very first thing I look at is time of day, and in about 80% or more of the time, it's at night, thus assume (dangerous) that visibility was an issue and thus the cyclist is at fault. 

I still think the overriding reason for the problem existing is that motorists are unwilling to share the road and thus make no allowances for the cyclist being on the road.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Oxtox said:


> whatever works for you.
> 
> I'm going to pass on the construction worker look and the mad signaling...I wear mostly black kit and just point in the direction I intend to turn. having good results so far.


try passing 3-4 lanes to make a left while cars are coming from behind at 50 mph, and you'd praying if they are going to see you from distance, and if all of them would slow for you to pass into the left (it does no good if 1 car slows down while 2 other still keep speed). And I notice that cagers are more sympathetic if they think you're an old geezer just trying to cross the road. And I get some "thumbs up" from a few Caltran (construction workers), fire truck, and police cruiser guys every now and then. Vest is my friend on solo journey, not to mention in case I fall into a ditch or side of a mountain of my own doing, at least the copter and Fire PD guys can spot me easier. I don't look as cool as the prokit wearing guys, but who cares. I ain't some pretty boy trying to impress anyone.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

I wish that *everyone* on the roadway would know and obey the rules of the road and the law.

It doesn't really matter to me if that person on the roadway is operating some kind of motor vehicle or human propelled.

Just like the OP I am bothered by cyclists rolling stop signs and red lights. What scares me far more are the huge number of motor vehicle operators driving distracted/speeding/impared/or without a valid operators license.

Bottom line, be careful out there.

BTW the following should amuse/scare anyone interested in cyclists behavior at stop signs.....

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/co...orts/im-not-sure-what-think-about-146907.html


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

andleo said:


> to be fair I see more cars not obeying stops because there are more cars out there. I see plenty of people on bikes go through stop signs with out looking. Not stopping at stop signs is not only a cyclist issue


That's odd because again just today while I was out driving my car around I saw not one single car run a stop, but I did see 2 adult cyclists at two different locations do just that. There may be more cars, but percentage wise the number of cyclists that don't follow the rules is greater then the percentage of car drivers that don't. You do understand what I mean by percentage right? Just in case it's not quite understood, if I'm driving in the city and I see a 1000 cars, and say 10 or 15 cars don't follow the rules that I see that day, but also that day I see 10 cyclists and 4 of those don't follow the rules, which group of people have the largest percentage of not following the rules? So you point is bad.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Steve B. said:


> But even here on Long Island, NY, the police simply do not keep track of the reasons, merely reporting the accident that occurred. It pains me to see these folks getting run down as often as they do, but when I read the news report, the very first thing I look at is time of day, and in about 80% or more of the time, it's at night, thus assume (dangerous) that visibility was an issue and thus the cyclist is at fault.
> 
> I still think the overriding reason for the problem existing is that motorists are unwilling to share the road and thus make no allowances for the cyclist being on the road.


I'm not sure what the night time accident rate is but if this is true for your area then the as you say the cyclists are at fault for again failure to obey rules. Where I live now very few riders use lights or even reflectors, and the cops don't care because they'll just automatically make it the fault of the cyclist for failure to have adequate safety lighting or reflectors, even if a car pulls from a stop sign and hits a cyclist without the safety systems that had the right away the cyclist is at fault for failure to make themselves visible so the driver could see them and thus would not have hit them. And to this end I agree with the cops as far as fault is concerned, I don't agree with the cops that these unlit cyclist should not be ticketed, I think all communities should be ticketing cyclists without adequate lighting to teach them a lesson before it's too late.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

froze said:


> That's odd because again just today while I was out driving my car around I saw not one single car run a stop, but I did see 2 adult cyclists at two different locations do just that. There may be more cars, but percentage wise the number of cyclists that don't follow the rules is greater then the percentage of car drivers that don't. You do understand what I mean by percentage right? Just in case it's not quite understood, if I'm driving in the city and I see a 1000 cars, and say 10 or 15 cars don't follow the rules that I see that day, but also that day I see 10 cyclists and 4 of those don't follow the rules, which group of people have the largest percentage of not following the rules? So you point is bad.


Is every car doing the speed limit ?. Nope, probably a minuscule percentage. Is every car using their turn signals ?, probably the majority do, but countless don't. Are drivers texting or gabbing on the phone ?, you bet. Lot's of other "rules" out there that drivers just ignore 'cause they feel entitled for whatever reason. 

The women cyclist killed in South Nyack, NY last month was hit from behind on a road with no shoulder by a driver breaking 2 rules. 1) Over the speed limit. 2) Failure to allow safe passing distance. The driver could not be cited for reason 1, no cop present to measure speed, but the accident investigators were able to roughly determine speed based on skid marks and damage to vehicle. The cops did not cite for reason 2 even though it's a law in NY to allow safe passing. You would think that hitting a cyclist from behind would be a pretty obvious case of not allowing a safe passing distance, but no citation. Go figure. 

Again, you may feel that cyclists are the culprit, but possibly open your eyes and really observe how many laws are broken by most drivers every time they get in a car.


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## Bobonli (May 8, 2008)

I'm glad, at least, that people are discussing the issue. I for one am not perfect and if the scene is safe for me and others will sloooowly roll through a stop sign. I always stop at lights, look around and make a decision. Yes, I break rules in my car, but far fewer now that I have kids.

What I don't understand is the sense of entitlement that some riders have. Some, not all. Entitled to go through the light/sign, or entitled not to have to pay attention because "I'm on a bike and cars have to look out for me!"

I just started riding with a club. I've been out twice, once with a B group and once with a C group. Two totally different groups of riders and the groups took on their own personalities. The B group leader basically said "we're riding together but you must make your own decisions regarding personal safety. Please be careful." Some riders rolled through signs and such but no major peril. The C group gave a long and redundant speech about safety and how they'd stop at signs and lights but in practice did none of that. I saw some people roll right into intersections against the light and then make hand gestures at the cars that had the right-of-way. Their attitude was "look out for me.." Now that's just plain reckless and obnoxious.It's the reckless plus entitled/ obnoxious that gets me. 

The sad part for me is that I can't decide whether to return for another ride and keep my mouth shut, speak up or just move onto another club. A few bad apples in any population ruins the experience and reputation for many others.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

froze said:


> That's odd because again just today while I was out driving my car around I saw not one single car run a stop, but I did see 2 adult cyclists at two different locations do just that. There may be more cars, but percentage wise the number of cyclists that don't follow the rules is greater then the percentage of car drivers that don't. You do understand what I mean by percentage right? Just in case it's not quite understood, if I'm driving in the city and I see a 1000 cars, and say 10 or 15 cars don't follow the rules that I see that day, but also that day I see 10 cyclists and 4 of those don't follow the rules, which group of people have the largest percentage of not following the rules? So you point is bad.


Froze, I understand percentage, and I think your comparison between drivers breaking rules and cyclist breaking rules are not in the same scope. When drivers don't obey and cause an accident, the damage that they can cause to others is GREATER then when cyclists don't follow the laws. So it is much more important for drivers to obey the rules. Cyclists who wish to live to ride again should also obey the rules or at the minunum use prudent judgement ween not obeying the rule.

How many cyclists have killed another cyclist, a pedistrian, or a driver of a car.. when said cyclists did not obey the rules? See my point. The onus is and should always be on the drivers because they are operating a vehicle that even at slow speed can be fatal.

I'm not defending the cyclists, but the bottom line is cyclists breaking rules carry a different injury ramification done to others versus drivers.


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## mcsqueak (Apr 22, 2010)

Bobonli said:


> What I don't understand is the sense of entitlement that some riders have. Some, not all. Entitled to go through the light/sign, or entitled not to have to pay attention because "I'm on a bike and cars have to look out for me!"


I too am glad people are discussing it, but this argument will continue to go round-and-round with no solution.

Your quote above can easily be changed around a little bit to say:

"_What I don't understand is the sense of entitlement that some *drivers* have. Some, not all. Entitled to *speed and talk on their cell-phone*, or entitled not to have to pay attention because 'I'm *in a car* and *cyclists/walkers* have to look out for me!'_"

This entitlement complex comes IMHO because 1.) they drive the larger vehicle and thus are empowered because there is nothing a cyclist can do to stop them and 2.) feel further empowered through the use of the "we pay gas tax/road tax so who are freeloading cyclists to tell us what to do" arguments you see on messageboards whenever driving/cycling infrastructure cost is brought up.

I sit on my porch and watch the TdF for 3-4 hours at a time on my laptop. I live on the corner of a fairly busy T-intersection, where the "vertical" body of the T is controlled by a stop sign. I watch people roll it all day, in cars and bikes alike.

And forget about trying to get drivers to stop for pedestrians trying to cross streets. I've stopped my car and had 4-5 cars go around me, rather than stop, like the law says. Why? Because they feel empowered to do so, pedestrians can't actually do anything about it, and to be quite frank drivers will skirt most any of the common laws they are supposed to follow unless they see a police officer or speed-trap camera.

I break the speedlimit on the freeway all the time because I feel that there is little danger to myself in doing so, and there is even less chance of me getting caught doing it - the same exact reason I'll roll stop signs when no one is around on my bike.

No one is immune from entitlement in this win-less argument. Drivers feel entitled because most everyone around them is powerless to stop their infractions, cyclists feel entitled because they don't hurt anyone usually (except themselves).


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Bobonli said:


> I'm glad, at least, that people are discussing the issue. I for one am not perfect and if the scene is safe for me and others will sloooowly roll through a stop sign. I always stop at lights, look around and make a decision. Yes, I break rules in my car, but far fewer now that I have kids.
> 
> What I don't understand is the sense of entitlement that some riders have. Some, not all. Entitled to go through the light/sign, or entitled not to have to pay attention because "I'm on a bike and cars have to look out for me!"
> 
> ...



Personally I've stopped doing the big club rides or big bike shop ride. It's too dangerous. Too many guys acting like they're entitled to act stupid just because they're in a big group. Big group mentality is stupid. I mean I've I've heard guys making fun of drivers and their girlfriends in the car or dog, or whatever. It's so lame. I just wanna enjoy my ride without the highschool kid comments, is that too much to ask from adults? Apparently it is. Lots of these guys ride expensive bikes all decked out in their pro kits, lots of bling bling, but lacking lots of brain. I avoid these sort of rides like the plague. Too many hot cocks there.

I ride with a few guys I know. Much more enjoyable when you're in the company of people who are mellow. Sometimes I prefer to ride alone, but riding alone also has its own risk in that drivers don't see you (and that's where I wear my hi-vis vest).


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Steve B. said:


> Is every car doing the speed limit ?. Nope, probably a minuscule percentage. Is every car using their turn signals ?, probably the majority do, but countless don't. Are drivers texting or gabbing on the phone ?, you bet. Lot's of other "rules" out there that drivers just ignore 'cause they feel entitled for whatever reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you may feel that cyclists are the culprit, but possibly open your eyes and really observe how many laws are broken by most drivers every time they get in a car.


This is just cry baby crap, oh, the poor pitiful cyclists are getting slaughtered on our roads due to evil car drivers that are entitled, what a bunch of radical extreme leftest thoughts.

You're the one that's blind.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

froze said:


> This is just cry baby crap, oh, the poor pitiful cyclists are getting slaughtered on our roads due to evil car drivers that are entitled, what a bunch of radical extreme leftest thoughts.
> 
> You're the one that's blind.


OK, I'm seeing troll now.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

froze said:


> .....You're the one that's blind.


Near as I understand things....when there is an internet discussion the first person that stoops to insulting the other folks in the discussion has clearly lost the argument and has nothing left to add.


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