# Dogma 2 Frame Flex Issue



## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

I have a 2012 Dogma 2 and have been having a constant "rattling" issue since the bike was built up. My LBS and I discovered yesterday that when put under minimal torque, the entire frame in the bottom bracket area flexes noticeably. We figured out that the constant flexing is causing the bottom bracket of my Rotor crank to slowly loosen thus causing the rattling I am hearing. The Pinarello rep is coming out on Tuesday to determine whether or not my frame is defective because he said they have not had any stiffness issues. My question to the forum is have any of you heard/seen anything like this? Any comments are appreciated!

Thank You


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## wfo (Dec 3, 2010)

These frames are stiff. I've had to to re-tighten the headset and bottom bracket on my Dogma2, now my second Pinarello Dogma2. 

Frame flex? Not hardly. 

Maybe on a trainer pushed in a sprint but not on the road. Noises will come from: stem/handlebar connection, if you're using an aluminum stem/carbon bars, loosened head-set and/or BB.


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

I appreciate the feedback, it is definitely the frame that is flexing though. I am not a big guy by any stretch at 165 lbs so I was shocked to see it but just standing in my LBS having the mechanic put some torque on the drive side pedal you can see the frame flex in the bottom bracket/bottom triangle area. I do not believe this is an inherent problem to the Dogma 2 rather a possible frame defect. It will be interesting to learn what the Pinarello rep has to say but i hope the issue is rectified one way or another.


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## jathanas (Aug 6, 2008)

There's not even a tiny hint of flex on my Dogma2. It's noticeably stiffer than the Cervelo R3 and BMC Team Machine SLR01 I've had before.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Something is def wrong with the frame, I wouldn't even ride it. Sounds like some fabric was oriented the wrong way during layup.


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## Juzzy004 (Mar 8, 2012)

I'd say you're looking at an isolated issue here too and, as Cinelli said, stay off it until the rep takes a look. My frame certainly doesn't have any flex - especially around the bottom bracket.


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

I appreciate all of the comments, I left the bike at my LBS so I will not be riding it. The rep is supposed to come tomorrow so I will report back what I learn.

Thanks Again


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

The Pinarello rep came today to look at my Dogma 2 and unfortunately I was not given any answers as of yet. He and my LBS decided that they want to rule things out systematically before they consider the frame defective. Specifically, they think that both the crank set and wheels can play a role in the flex I am seeing...I have a Rotor 3D Plus crank and Zipp 101 wheels. They are going to "play" with the bike trying a couple of different cranks and wheel sets and see if they can determine whether it is more a function of components or of the frame. Does this make sense to anyone? I am fairly well educated on this stuff but it seems to be over my head because I can't see how components would play that big a role in the frame flexing...I could be wrong but I am interested to hear any thoughts.


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## Juzzy004 (Mar 8, 2012)

That suggestion makes absolutely no sense to me and sounds like 'sales' talk, so as to potentially squirm their way out of a warranty situation...
Let's use a pro rider as an example here. Mark Cavendish, riding a Dogma 2 with Sky at present, can generate up to 1600W of power toward the end of a stage. He's using 170mm Dura Ace cranks with SRM power meters and Dura Ace C50 700c tubular hoops.
I can understand that there may be a slight difference in applied pressure with different cranksets, but wheels?? Lost me there... The asymmetrical design of the frame, together with ribbed tubing were developed specifically to minimise flex, especially through the drivetrain.
Keep on them and don't accept half-assed, unproven excuses.


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

Juzzy004, thank you for your comments I tend to agree with you. I have worked with my LBS for 10 years so I have a great deal of trust and faith in them but this one has thrown me for a bit of a loop. They said they are going to play with a few things this week so I will give them that given my history with them but if I am not satisfied with the result I certainly will not accept it. I just can't imagine wheels and a crankset making that big a difference and I love the Cavendish example! Also, it's not as if I have cheap components on the bike. Thanks again, I will update once I hear more.


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## Lick Skillet (Aug 21, 2011)

I hope they gave you a loaner to ride in the meantime..... keep us posted as this is beginning to smell fishy regarding the reps' course of action.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

ejabbale said:


> Does this make sense to anyone?


ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The crank is not going to make your frame flex. That's just BS.
If they wanted to try a stiffer wheel, it takes about a minute to switch a pair of wheels on a bike. No need to keep it overnight for examination! 
I hope you took pics of the frame.
I'd be worried about them tampering with it to void the warranty. How long have you had the frame? Did you use a major credit card, the card company may help if you explain that you were sold faulty goods and the vendor won't honor the warranty. Check your state's consumer laws, I'd be backing out of this deal and this shop ASAP. Don't be afraid of taking the dealer to court. You spent a lot of money and have every right to expect satisfaction.


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

Back to the original issue which was a "rattle" as you described it. What is causing the rattle? I understand the frame is flexing at the BB but what is leading to the rattle? Have you confirmed it's the chain, wheels, etc?
I have a 2010 Orbea Orca, and I put Zipp 404's on it 2 years ago. These were the new Firecrest models which are a lot wider. I had a problem with the rear wheel rubbing the brake pads when climbing/sprinting and I'm 160LBS at my heaviest. I adjusted the brakes constantly to try and resolve it and eventually switched over to Campy Bora One wheels. I've never had a problem since then. I could have initially contributed it to frame flex for sure but it ended up being the wheels (probably out of tension).
All I'm saying is in situations like this it does make sense to take a systematic approach and rule out components before replacing an incredibly expensive frame. You may want to speak with the rep or your shop and say something like:
Hey, you guys take your time with this. In the mean time does Pinerallo have a demo bike I can use while you sort this out?
If they are going to be a while I bet they can come up with one for you. This save them and you money and take some pressure off.


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

Very good advice and thank everyone for the feedback. Regarding the rattle, I believe we have narrowed it down to the fact that the bottom bracket was coming loose. I am not sure if that is being caused by the frame flex or if the bottom bracket itself is faulty. This is why as frustrating as it is, I understand the systematic approach. I truly do trust my LBS and I believe they will have my back should they determine the frame is faulty. I've had a relationship with them for 10 years so I have to allow them the time to do what they think is best. I will talk with them about a loaner bike however. I will certainly let you all know how this turns out.


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

I had an old Vitus 979 back in the day, that frame was a noodle (massive flex) and the BB never came loose. Not ruling out the frame but frame flex should not cause a BB to unscrew. How many times was the BB re-torqued and came loose again. So if you tightened the BB the noise was gone for a few days then came back with a loose BB?


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

Well now as I recall, once the BB was re-torqued the rattling noise was still there and the mechanic thought that what is possibly happening is that when under torque mostly on the drive side, because the frame is flexing the chain moves and rubs into the FD. It does not rattle if there isn't much torque and it seems to happen when I torque the drive side. I really don't think it has anything to do with derailleur set up because we spent ample time making sure everything is inline. I'm not a big guy, 165lbs at most during cycling season and I'm certainly no pro so the amount of torque I'm putting down should not be causing this. I'm not ruling anything out at this point, I just want the issue fixed one way or another. I'm honestly hoping it is not the frame so we will see! Thanks again for all the feedback


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## hamsey (Aug 16, 2010)

Ej,

Please keep us updated.


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

Will be waiting to hear what it is. Has anyone checked the chain ring bolt's? Good luck and as others said, keep us updated!


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

Watching with interest. I hope Pinarello does well by you. I've owned one for just over 1 month, and I hate to think they don't deal with people honestly.


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

I hope to hear tomorrow, thanks for all of the interest...I will certainly update everyone!


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## ml29 (Jun 3, 2011)

Just wondering if you had any progress with your frame?


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

I spoke with the mechanic at my shop on Saturday and he had just put in a Shimano bottom bracket and crankset to see if there was any difference and...there was not. They are basically systematically checking every variable so that when they call the Pinarello rep on Tuesday to tell him that in their opinion it is the frame, they have all the information. I can't argue with this approach and do feel that me LBS has my best interests in mind so we shall see what the rep says tomorrow! I will certainly report back, my frustration at this point is the amount of time this is taking but I try not to get worked up about it.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

I remain skeptical about the crank excuse. Hope it works out though.


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

*Just wondering?*

Exactly how are they testing the frame for flex? On any bike, if you put the crank/pedal at the 6 o"clock position, hold the bike to the side and step on the pedal there will be flex! I can not imagine how they are doing any sort of reliable (measured) check on this?


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## y2kcorvette (Aug 15, 2010)

any update on your flex issue?


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## mariomal99 (Mar 4, 2012)

rcharrette said:


> Exactly how are they testing the frame for flex? On any bike, if you put the crank/pedal at the 6 o"clock position, hold the bike to the side and step on the pedal there will be flex! I can not imagine how they are doing any sort of reliable (measured) check on this?


My Trek Madone's also flex with the pedal at the 6 o"clock position. Actually all bikes will flex side to side......just mount it to a trainer and apply some pressure to the crank.


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## wfo (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm telling you I've never experienced flex on my 2012 Dogma 60.1, now 8 months old...180lbs and a sprinter, riding 150-200 miles/wk. Equipped w/Fulcrum Racing Zero clinchers shodw/Conti 4000, Zipp Service Course SL bar ad stem combo and topped off with Campy Super Record 11 spd. This bike is a sweetr setup. No flex, did I mention that.


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## vboy19 (Mar 24, 2008)

ejabbale said:


> I spoke with the mechanic at my shop on Saturday and he had just put in a Shimano bottom bracket and crankset to see if there was any difference and...there was not. They are basically systematically checking every variable so that when they call the Pinarello rep on Tuesday to tell him that in their opinion it is the frame, they have all the information. I can't argue with this approach and do feel that me LBS has my best interests in mind so we shall see what the rep says tomorrow! I will certainly report back, my frustration at this point is the amount of time this is taking but I try not to get worked up about it.


Sorry for coming into this discussion late.. I have the same problem!!! I have a THM crankset on my bike and notice that the BB does flex under load. I'm not sure if people with the Dogma 2 notice this. I good way to see this is when you are stradlling the top tube tilt the bike to the left and clip into your drive side pedal. You will notice the bb does flex a little. More noticeably than my 60.1. I haven't spoken to my dealer about the issue yet as it hasn't caused much concern.However was riding the two weeks ago and heard this weird rattle noise when under pressure. I realized the chain ring bolts were super loose and I tightened them back down. Check that Rotor crank to make sure that's not the case. The flex is still there but I don't hear the rattle anymore atleast not yet. I only weight between 167/170 lbs.


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## wfo (Dec 3, 2010)

Is the bottom bracket area where you are hearing the creaks?

Also make sure the headset and fork tube bolts are "tight". 

Carbon bikes are tight, just keep them that way. they're not, a "ride'm hard, put'em away wet" kind of gear, like a steel or Ti bike might tend to be. High strength to weight ratio and the use of stealth-like materials like these carbon frames do need another level of attention to maintenace frequency schedule. So keeping your carbon bikes "clean and tight" is paramount to keeping them right and running sweetly as they were meant to be.

By the way vboy19...Are you comparing the 60.1 to the 65? 

I have a Dogma2 and it is a 60.1. 

You mention in your response, "more BB flex. More noticeably than my 60.1" 

I'm confused. :mad2:


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## vboy19 (Mar 24, 2008)

Sorry comparing the dogma 2 to the 60.1. In reality they are both 60.1's.


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## wfo (Dec 3, 2010)

The Dogma2 is a 60.1 and now there's a 65.1.


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

Hey all sorry for the delayed reply! After my LBS ruled everything out systematically the head mechanic went back to his original thought and my rear wheel needed to be retensioned. It was the flex in the wheel that was causing the "illusion" of my frame flexing. We also learned that my large chain ring was slightly warped causing the rattle I would hear. So bottom line...replaced the chain ring, retensioned the wheel and no more problem! I am happy with the result as I just couldn't believe the Dogma 2 would flex that way! Thank you to everyone for your input, it was very helpful


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## wfo (Dec 3, 2010)

Again I say. The Dogma2 does not flex. 

Glad you got that figured out and got back with your findings. Now go and hig your Dogma and say your very, very sorry for ever doubting it's other worldly rigidity.


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

Was the chainring under warranty? Did you get the bike recently? (Can't remember).


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

aureliajulia said:


> Was the chainring under warranty? Did you get the bike recently? (Can't remember).


The chain ring was from Praxis Works and they replaced it no questions asked, their customer service was great! I have had the bike since June so yes, fairly recently. I certainly love it!


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