# Why buy a Defy?



## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

So I’m in the market for a bike (lucky me!) – I’ve been trolling Craigslist, ebay, bikesdirect, and of course my local LBS’s. I’ve been looking, learning, and researching for a few months and have been leaning towards craigslist or a LBS, even though the LBS is the most expensive option. But, here’s my latest discovery:

Take a look at the geometry chart for the Giant Defy (https://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/defy.2/7307/44048/) and the Bikes Direct Gravity Liberty (https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/gravity/images/avenue_geo_10_g.gif). They are pretty much the same, and I mean almost exactly the same.

The issue with BD is that I don’t get a test ride, which is a huge downside for me. But, it seems that I can ride a Defy and if I like it, get the BD bike for about ½ the price. Isn’t that correct? Or am I wrong? I know the components and frame may be a bit different but won’t it have the same feel and handling?


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

No you're wrong.

Tube material, diameter, and stiffness/flex have a huge impact on feel and handling.

They may ride the same but that would be a coincidence.


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## NewbieSteve (Nov 6, 2010)

They will probably be kind of different, but it's too hard to tell how they'll be different, and whether or not the possible differences will be good or bad for you. At this point the chances of getting a bike that's better or worse for you are pretty much equal on both sides (discounting component differences, only addressing the ride/feel differences you asked about). If it turns out that the Giant is a good fit for you, then you have to come to the decision whether you prefer to have your money or to support the LBS and have their support as well. Different strokes and neither answer is wrong. 

Either way you go putting miles on the bike will teach you a lot about your goals and what is important to you regarding frame build and geometry.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

Hank Stamper said:


> No you're wrong.
> 
> Tube material, diameter, and stiffness/flex have a huge impact on feel and handling.
> 
> They may ride the same but that would be a coincidence.


Reeeeeally? Does the material (which is akin to stiffness/flex) even approach the level of importance associated with geometry? I’m not going to be ultra competitive so I’m thinking that I may not notice much of a difference. I’ve come across many experienced riders who say that frames of the same material (but of different grades) are so similar, it is difficult to notice a difference, especially for a non-pro rider. My level of experience doesn’t allow me to pass judgment on that yet. 

The Gravity’s sloped top tube tells me that the aluminum material used is likely to be of the more flexible variety (similar to 6061) and since I am 135 pounds (all muscle baby), it’s not like I need anything super strong.

If you think there may be a large difference, I’ll have to take that into consideration.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

Those bikes really are similar. Same geometry and very similar frame layout.

The fork and wheels may give a different feel between the two bikes. And tubing does make a difference (particularly in comfort). However, which will be better is unknown since you can't test ride both of them back to back.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

BostonG said:


> Reeeeeally? Does the material (which is akin to stiffness/flex) even approach the level of importance associated with geometry? I’m not going to be ultra competitive so I’m thinking that I may not notice much of a difference. I’ve come across many experienced riders who say that frames of the same material (but of different grades) are so similar, it is difficult to notice a difference, especially for a non-pro rider. My level of experience doesn’t allow me to pass judgment on that yet.
> 
> The Gravity’s sloped top tube tells me that the aluminum material used is likely to be of the more flexible variety (similar to 6061) and since I am 135 pounds (all muscle baby), it’s not like I need anything super strong.
> 
> If you think there may be a large difference, I’ll have to take that into consideration.


I'm pretty sure that aluminum alloys all have pretty much the same stiffness, so your friend is correct. However, if you have different tube dimensions (keeping the geometry the same) it will change the ride properties, probably enough to notice. The sloped top tube is used because the frame appears to be a rip off of the giant's, nothing to do with the material. The old cannondale frames were 6061 T6, and they were notoriously stiff.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

Material will make a difference. Think about it: if a frame were made from cheddar, it would definitely ride differently to, say iron.

But how much do modern materials vary? I agree with the PhatTalc; current 6061 frames with similar geometry will not ride very differently. Contrast with a low end vs high end CF frames; you can have markedly different ride characteristics.

Also, tire choice, bar tape, bar dimensions & material, saddle and even seatpost length & material may all make bigger contributions to feel and handling to bikes with similar frame geometry.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

Sorry, there is no way that you can compare the finely crafted Giant Defy to anything sold by bikes direct. The ride, weld, and paint quality... not to mention the lifetime guarantee that you will get from the Giant LBS. 

*The Giant Defy 3 a steal at 750 dollars with a lifetime guarantee.* The Gravity Liberty bikey you mentioned is $499 no LBS no guarantee.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

Hooben said:


> Sorry, there is no way that you can compare the finely crafted Giant Defy to anything sold by bikes direct. The ride, weld, and paint quality... not to mention the lifetime guarantee that you will get from the Giant LBS.
> 
> *The Giant Defy 3 a steal at 750 dollars with a lifetime guarantee.* The Gravity Liberty bikey you mentioned is $499 no LBS no guarantee.



 
Have you ever ridden the Gravity Liberty or otherwise inspected it?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

The tubing shapes look just a touch different. I wouldn't be surprised if Giant made some more frames for bikesdirect on the same tooling, with less expensive tubes. bikesdirect has to be getting their bikes somewhere.

I think bikesdirect does give you a little more for your dollar, assuming those bikes are as speced and they don't magically break right away or something. I would call your attention to the crankset, cassette, chain, hubs and brakes. While it's good for $500, it's not really as good as the Defy you linked to (granted for quite a lot more.)

Did you phone all your local shops about last-year's bikes? IMO, those are the best value going in a new bike, and used from a reputable shop is the best value going, period. Of course, assuming decent fit.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

BostonG said:


> Have you ever ridden the Gravity Liberty or otherwise inspected it?


Yes, I have ridden and seen the Gravity up close and personal. The welds are very poorly done without much care. The welds aren't even sanded down the least bit. Zoom in on that picture of the Bikes Direct bike and you'll see the ugly welds. The paint finish is dry, meaning not much of a clear coat is placed on these bikes. Creaks and moans are constant even when new. The bike is shipped in a box and needs to be assembled. 
There is nothing like having an LBS there to support you. But hey, you asked for my opinion...remember?

Sounds like you've made up your mind....so good luck with that.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

AndrwSwitch said:


> While it's good for $500, it's not really as good as the Defy you linked to (granted for quite a lot more.)


I really don't see how 250 dollars is quite a lot more in todays market. You save up that money and it's like piece of mind. If anything goes wrong with my bike, my LBS speaks in person to the Giant reps once or twice a month. They'll call the Giant reps with questions or problems. That means anything from brakes to bar tape. 

If that Bikes Direct bike goes bad...you could always ship it back and cross you fingers...right? I mean, I love waiting for the UPS guy to see if my bike, or replacement bike arrives okay...usually a gamble in itself.

*My LBS Manager, Roberto on the Giant You Tube Channel.....my link to the people that made my bicycle.
My lifetime Guarantee is safe.*


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## tconrady (May 1, 2007)

AndrwSwitch said:


> The tubing shapes look just a touch different. I wouldn't be surprised if Giant made some more frames for bikesdirect on the same tooling, with less expensive tubes. bikesdirect has to be getting their bikes somewhere.


I know they get a good bit of their frames from Kinesis and another iirc, but it wasn't Giant. Whatshisface from BD posts on RBR so he's likely to chime in at some point. One thing I'd add is try to find out frame weights of both. I bought a BD bike for my 12 year old (Kinesis made frame) and it's more than adequate but I wouldn't put in the same class as the premium brands. It's steel and it's heavy...but it's perfect for her and got her into a roadbike cheaply...Hey, she's just 12. But until I received and built up my custom steel frame this fall I never really realized just how incredibly heavy her bike is. 

Again, it works for her...but I wasn't significantly impressed enough to consider a BD for myself.

Just some things to consider.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Hooben said:


> I really don't see how 250 dollars is quite a lot more in todays market.


You linked to a bike that cost $1100.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

When all else fails and confusion ensues, turn to Sheldon Brown:
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

FWIW, all else being equal, I think you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference in ride qualities between the Giant and Liberty, but I'd still buy the Giant or another LBS bike (as long as it fit).

In this instance, for the extra money, your getting a better crankset and IMO a better quality frame, along with all the LBS perks - sizing/ fitting assistance, ability to test ride, final assembly, tuneups, tweaks to fit and warranty assistance (if needed). 

Going the online route, even something as simple as a stem swap that takes 10 minutes at your LBS could take a week or more dealing with an online retailer. All in all, not worth the trouble, unless you're very well versed in bike geo, sizing/ fit, and do your own wrenching. Then yes, BD (or similar) can save you some money (but for most, there _are_ some hidden costs).


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

AndrwSwitch said:


> You linked to a bike that cost $1100.


No way...

Gravity Liberty.... 499 http://bikesdirect.com/products/gravity/liberty_2.htm

Giant Defy 3 .... 750 http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/bikes/model/defy.3/7307/44049/


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## PBrooks (Apr 9, 2010)

Get the Giant, everything being equal. What I mean by that is if you decide cycling is for you then you will want something lighter and more aggressive. Having the giant you can easily turn the giant into a full on touring bike (it has pannier rack bosses in the rear near rear brake) the gravity doesn't.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

OK, let's look beyond the frame. 
Giants-
The Shimano 2200/2300 and FSA Tempo drivetrain parts on the Defy 3 are pretty much big-box store quality. The Tiagra parts on the Defy 2 the OP originally mentioned are much more in line with something that will see more than a couple hundred miles of use a year. Both of them have the same wheelset, which would be heavy, probably not the fastest rolling things, but otherwise serviceable. Pretty much the same could be said of the rest of the components of either bike. At this price-point while you could certainly upgrade the components as you go, it really doesn't make sense. A set of Tiagra shifters alone could run you 1/3 the price of the bike. Any wheelset would likely do the same. For the most part, the bike is what it is.

Bikes Direct:
The Gravity Liberty 2's drivetrain is a Sora/Tiagra mix, which is a step down from the Defy 2 but definitely a step up from the Defy 3 (overall quality and the difference of 1 cog in the rear). The Sora shifters are decent, but I would rather have Tiagra or better. I would consider a jump to the Liberty 3 for the Tiagra/105 mix. Again, for the rest it's pretty much a bunch of heavy, clunky, but otherwise serviceable parts. At this price-point you can't expect lightweight precision. And again, upgrading the bike makes no sense.

I find that Bikes Direct's sweet spot is really in the $1000-$2000 range, where you start getting full, quality groupsets and better components bolted to better frames. 

How about a third option in that $1100 price range?
Neuvation F100-
The SRAM Apex build is $1100 before shipping. You can tailor the package just about any way you want. The drivetrain is superior to anything in the Defy line (IMHO), and it's all SRAM instead of a mix of name and no-name parts. I prefer Apex over a triple any day. The wheelset is definitely an upgrade (I have a couple sets of an earlier generation). You would need to purchase pedals. There is little or nothing on the bike that I would have a problem with- even if I put thousands of miles a year on the bike. Neuvation customer service has been great for me in the few times I've called.

I've purchased bikes or components from all three, and all three have their strong points. Many bike shop's "fittings" (especially in this price range) are little more than looking at a size chart and adjusting the seatpost up or down- the bare minimum. The online options would require some assembly, which would require a trip to the LBS and some additional expense. Bikes Direct and Neuvation try to do their best to fit you over the phone, but you do have to do some of the legwork yourself to ensure a good fit. Neuvation adds shipping to the equation. The devil is in the details, and you have to decide what your goals are and how much you are willing to spend to achieve them.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

If you're convinced that equal Geo means equal ride why would you seek to copy a Defy?

Its a fine entry level bike but if equal geo means equal ride why not get yourself the ride of a Pinerello Prince or a Time for $500?


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Geometry is almost the same, so in that respect they would feel similar. You may be hard pressed to notice a difference in feel if you ran the same components on the two bikes.

BUT, there is a lot more to a bike purchase than geometry and componentry. Even with the cheaper materials and poor welds on the BD bikes, they'll probably ride ok, as in, not likely to fall apart first ride (provided you assembled it properly, and working in a shop, I see a lot of internet bikes that were not assembled properly).

With the Giant Defy, you will get service and warranty you won't get from BikesDirect. Free professional assembly, follow-up tune-ups, fitting, etc. Some of these may not be as important to you if you are capable (beware: just taking the bike out of the box and putting wheels on does NOT count as proper assembly, though most internet buyers seem to be happy only doing that much; I'd be afraid to ride their bike!).

Warranty may or may not be an important issue for you. With the Giant, if you have a warranty issue, you take it to the shop, and they'll take care of contacting Giant and getting it resolved. We've never had any problem getting a Giant warranty taken care of. It appears BD has changed their page on warranty, but they used to claim "Best Warranty in the Business," and then state they would sell you a new carbon component at cost if it broke as a result of a manufacturing defect - umm...NOT a warranty! I've heard some have had good luck with BD warranty, but I've also heard horror stories. I've never heard or experienced a horror story with any Giant warranties. Again, maybe for the price, and the chances that you won't need a warranty, it may not be a deal breaker (most companies only have warranty rates of 2%; 4% is considered to be bad and would cut so much into profits that the company could go out of business, so I imagine BD has warranty rates in the normal range since they are still in business)

Finally, the Giant will offer better resale value for when you decide to sell the bike in two years because you want to upgrade to something nicer. Meaning, the BD bike might not be cheaper in the long run.

Anyway, have fun riding whichever you choose!


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks all. I appreciate the opinions and was a bit pleasantly surprised that there were very few BD bashers - objectivity is great. The link to Sheldon Brown was nice too.

At this point, I am leaning further away from BD and even from Cragislist. I am leaning more towards an LBS. Besides, I may be able to get an OK deal with a 2010 clearance bike and the resale value is a good point.

Thanks again.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I am in agreement about buying an LBS bike but bashing the Gravity is hogwash. A Giant is made by Giant while the BD bike ismade by one of Giant's competitors in Taiwan. People don't flatter yourselves. Giant is one of those Taiwanese company that builds bikes for others. The difference is that they also sell bikes under their own brand name. I doubt that the Gravity is any worse than a Defy. Dude, if you want the Gravity, buy it. I hate hearing people treat their $800 entry-level bikes like they have something special. You have a name. Unless you're riding something better than entry-level, you're still riding entry level. If your bike has good looking welds, lucky you. If they don't look good and you don't care, so what? Either way, you're buying entry-level. The bikes are probably identical in ride and everything else. However, the only real difference is the LBS experience. Nothing more. Both are probably excellent bikes but to hash it out over which entry-level bike is better? The one that fits you best, serves your needs, looks good and falls into your price range is the one you should get. Want to be an elitist about it? Buy a better bike.


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## |3iker (Jan 12, 2010)

Try and knock another $100 off of the Giant at the LBS and call it a day.

Both bikes are made in ROC or Taiwan. 

I love it when people tout the "LBS experience". 
Most bikes arrived at LBS virtually assembled anyways. Don't know about you, almost all the LBS I've been too have young kids working at the mechanic station. It's not like you're buying a $5000 Cervelo. You think your entry level bike will get premium treatment? :rolleyes5: 
Knowing what I know now, I'd rather wrench my bike together.
To err is human. Why pay someone for it?


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

|3iker said:


> Try and knock another $100 off of the Giant at the LBS and call it a day.
> 
> Both bikes are made in ROC or Taiwan.
> 
> ...


+1...


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

terbennett said:


> I am in agreement about buying an LBS bike but bashing the Gravity is hogwash. A Giant is made by Giant while the BD bike ismade by one of Giant's competitors in Taiwan. People don't flatter yourselves. Giant is one of those Taiwanese company that builds bikes for others. The difference is that they also sell bikes under their own brand name. I doubt that the Gravity is any worse than a Defy. Dude, if you want the Gravity, buy it. I hate hearing people treat their $800 entry-level bikes like they have something special. You have a name. Unless you're riding something better than entry-level, you're still riding entry level. If your bike has good looking welds, lucky you. If they don't look good and you don't care, so what? Either way, you're buying entry-level. The bikes are probably identical in ride and everything else. However, the only real difference is the LBS experience. Nothing more. Both are probably excellent bikes but to hash it out over which entry-level bike is better? The one that fits you best, serves your needs, looks good and falls into your price range is the one you should get. Want to be an elitist about it? Buy a better bike.


To be honest, I don't like hearing anyone acting like their "higher than entry level" bike is so special. A bike is a pretty simple piece of kit, some are better than others, but not by much. Last summer I took a rental bike out around the alps and it was great fun - cheapo frame, tiagra parts, heavy wheels. My own bike is pretty nice, but the rental bike (a giant) didn't really change the experience. Once you've ridden a few miles, riding is riding.


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## Taco Brown (Dec 1, 2010)

> I love it when people tout the "LBS experience".
> Most bikes arrived at LBS virtually assembled anyways. Don't know about you, almost all the LBS I've been too have young kids working at the mechanic station. It's not like you're buying a $5000 Cervelo. You think your entry level bike will get premium treatment?


You need a different LBS. At mine, any new bike purchase gets you an intial fitting and follow up adjustments. I just bought an Advanced Defy, and the salesman would not even talk about ringing me up until I was fitted properly. Changed me from a large frame to a medium-large frame.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Ive seen the "fitting" some lbs's do to low end bikes.. like fitting 6 foot tall people on 52cm bikes (the bike in stock always fits best!). 

I had a windsor from bd.. was a great bike overall, but the stock fork was frighteningly flexy. My OCR's fork is very high quality. A bike is pretty much a bike, id happily ride another bd bike (with a better fork). 

Bd's best values are the really low end sora/2200 bikes, and the high end ultegra and better bikes. my sora windsor was 350 bucks shipped.. I couldnt get close to its spec for less than 700 locally. The midgrade tiagra/105 stuff from bd usually isnt that great of a bargain.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

PhatTalc said:


> To be honest, I don't like hearing anyone acting like their "higher than entry level" bike is so special. A bike is a pretty simple piece of kit, some are better than others, but not by much. Last summer I took a rental bike out around the alps and it was great fun - cheapo frame, tiagra parts, heavy wheels. My own bike is pretty nice, but the rental bike (a giant) didn't really change the experience. Once you've ridden a few miles, riding is riding.


I don't know if your response is for or against what I said. However,it is funny that you say that because I'm tired of hearing people say that their bike is better because it has a big company name or a pro team rides that brand. I ride two Felts, two Specialized and a Fuji. My bikes aren't any better than a Motobecane, Scattante or any other road bike that are similarly equipped. They are just marketed differently. Besides, Bikes Direct does have a few brick and mortar bike shops and I know of two bike shops in my area that actually sell the same bikes that BD are selling. Their prices are actually the same as the online vendor. You're right when you say that riding is riding , but when I hear people being pretentious, it irritates me. It's even worse when they think one entry-level bike is better than another. I decided to play the game since I see that entry-level bike owners can be just as bad as the rest of the roadie community. Who cares? You ride, I ride. Buy what you like and can afford. If you can get something just as good without the name for less, I call that smart.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

terbennett said:


> Funny that you say that. Because I'm tired of hearing people say that their bike is better because it has a name on it that a pro team rides. I ride two Felts, two Specialized and a Fuji. My bikes aren't any better than a Motobecane, Scattante or any other bike that are similarly equipped.. They are just marketed differently. Besides, Bikes Direct does have a few brick and mortar bike shops and I know of two bike shops in my area that actually sell the same bikes that BD are selling. their prices are actually the same as the online vendor. You're right when you say that riding is riding , but when I hear people being pretentious, it irritates me. *It's even worse when they think one entry-level bike is better than another.* I decided to play the game since I see people with entry-level bike owners can be just as bad as the rest of the roadie community. The difference is that they stick together when someone with higher end stuff chimes in. Otherwise, they are just as pretentious toward each other.


Sometimes they _are_ better for that particular rider based on either needs or wants. For example, if the Giant Defy has a Shimano crankset and another bike was OEM's with a Gossamer, I'd say the Defy was better - at least in that regard. 

That's what makes for a competitive market. Some companies put an emphasis on something of interest to a particular buyer, another places the emphasis somewhere else that might not matter to him/ her. 

Just as pretentiousness irritates some, intolerance irritates others.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Taco Brown said:


> You need a different LBS. At mine, any new bike purchase gets you an intial fitting and follow up adjustments. I just bought an Advanced Defy, and the salesman would not even talk about ringing me up until I was fitted properly. Changed me from a large frame to a medium-large frame.


I agree but a Defy Advanced isn't an entry-level bike either.


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## Urb (Jul 19, 2010)

no idea about Bikes Direct Gravity Liberty but the Defy is a good bike with a good frame. My gf rides an avail 2, womens version of the defy 2, and the fit and finish is excellent. I've taken it for a short ride around the block and I'm impressed how nice it rides. I'm tempted to take it out for some climbs over my cevelo cause of the significantly more comfortable riding position. I don't think you can go wrong with the defy.


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## red elvis (Sep 9, 2010)

the ride on a defy is really comfortable. i've been riding since july and i already put of 744 miles on my bike (defy 2). it's fast and rides good on climbing and cornering. mine weights approx 21 lbs with two water bottles and saddle bag w/ a spare tube.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

|3iker said:


> Try and knock another $100 off of the Giant at the LBS and call it a day.
> 
> Both bikes are made in ROC or Taiwan.
> 
> ...


If the bike shop is a good one, then yes; cheaper bikes get more attention as they're built. IME, road bikes that sell for less than $800 need a lot of work, while those over $1500 need hardly any.
A cheap bike, if it has non-cartridge bearings, requires disassembly to add grease to the caged ball bearings. They never, ever put enough grease on them at the factory, and they're always adjusted too tight. Cheaper wheels need grease added to the hubs and again, the bearings are always too tight. They also needed a more thorough truing job done.

Expensive bikes usually have cartridge bearings everywhere, so no grease issues. Not many adjustment issues, either.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

|3iker said:


> I love it when people tout the "LBS experience".
> Most bikes arrived at LBS virtually assembled anyways. Don't know about you, almost all the LBS I've been too have young kids working at the mechanic station. It's not like you're buying a $5000 Cervelo. You think your entry level bike will get premium treatment? :rolleyes5:
> Knowing what I know now, I'd rather wrench my bike together.
> To err is human. Why pay someone for it?


The bikes I build all get the same treatment. From $5k wunderbikes to kids bikes. They all get hubs adjusted and greased up, wheels trued, etc. Often, its the cheap bikes that take longest to get working right!

At *most* LBSes you'll also get some kind of tune-up deal included. Lifetime of warranty tunes, X number of tunes, etc. So deduct $75 (or whatever the price of a tuneup is) every time ya gotta bring it somewhere to have the shifting adjusted, wheels trued, etc. 10 tune-ups at $75/pop = price of your Defy. All-in-all, unless yer an experienced wrench (and you wouldn't be posting in the beginner's section if you were!) its better to have someone help maintain yer bike as you learn about it. Bring me beer and pizza and I'll teach you all I know! Admittedly, it ain't much after 20 years of doing this, but I'll try!

So, g'head and save $250 now, but pay for tuneups later. Your choice.

M


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

red elvis said:


> the ride on a defy is really comfortable. i've been riding since july and i already put of 744 miles on my bike (defy 2). it's fast and rides good on climbing and cornering. mine weights approx 21 lbs with two water bottles and saddle bag w/ a spare tube.



That is great to know; as the ride on the Defy is just like a Gravity Liberty
And I have found the ride on both to be really comfortable and responsive also


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> Sometimes they _are_ better for that particular rider based on either needs or wants. For example, if the Giant Defy has a Shimano crankset and another bike was OEM's with a Gossamer, I'd say the Defy was better - at least in that regard.
> 
> That's what makes for a competitive market. Some companies put an emphasis on something of interest to a particular buyer, another places the emphasis somewhere else that might not matter to him/ her.
> 
> Just as pretentiousness irritates some, intolerance irritates others.


Look, I hate the Gossamer crankset.One of my Felts came with it years ago and I upgraded to Shimano. However, not everyone's demands are the same. a Gossamer would work well for a beginner. So what it's not that great but neither is Sora. Still, it is functional and fairly reliable for less demanding riders. I think that I'm tolerant to a point, but their is a point where I draw the line. Most of the people here have probably never even heard of the Gravity. They saw BD and started ripping on it. In the end, it's about fit and value to most beginners. If value wasn't that big, We'd all be riding Madones and Tarmacs.


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## red elvis (Sep 9, 2010)

bikesdirect said:


> That is great to know; as the ride on the Defy is just like a Gravity Liberty
> And I have found the ride on both to be really comfortable and responsive also


i dunno. i never rode a gravity liberty before.


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## Taco Brown (Dec 1, 2010)

I've put about 60 miles on my Defy Advanced in the last few weeks, and its a great bike. I could have easily lived with the regular Defy if I hadn't taken the Advanced out for a 15 mile test ride. For me the Defy is the perfect frame.


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## |3iker (Jan 12, 2010)

MShaw said:


> Bring me beer and pizza and I'll teach you all I know! Admittedly, it ain't much after 20 years of doing this, but I'll try!
> 
> So, g'head and save $250 now, but pay for tuneups later. Your choice.
> 
> M


What for? Youtube and Bike mechanic forums are wonderful.  
In fact I had to correct a few bike wrenchers a coupla times.  

Bicycles are wonderfully simple devices. It's not like trying to figure out the right air-fuel mixture for an upgraded ECU to work with the new twin-scroll turbocharger or identifying why the computer is puking CMOS Checksum error at boot up.
That's why I find working on bikes so calming.


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