# Possible alternative tubular glue?



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

This question has been asked before. Here's a thread on it right here on RBR:

Alternative common glue for tubular tires?

In the above thread, there was good endorsement from a few members for *3M Fast Tack Trim Adhesive*.

Howevever, today I'm reporting another possible alternative.

It's call DAP Weldwood Contact Cement. Take a look at some pics of using this stuff





















As you can see from the pics, the color of the glue is amber similar to the color of Vittoria Mastik One, except the Weldwood glue is a little lighter. The Weldwood glue is also a tad less viscous than the Vittoria, but the important thing is that the texture and tackiness of both glues are similar once they are allowed to dry to a glaze. I think the less vicsous Weldwood is easier to apply than the Vittoria since less viscous allows for a more even application of the glue.

So I took a chance to tried it out on a tubular tire. Thinking that this glue may be "more permanent" than the Vittoria, I only used one medium layer of it on the rim, and one medium layer of it on the tire. To my pleasant surprise, it seemed to work pretty well. My carbon rim has not been dissolved by the glue. The tire was on tight but can still be removed by hand on the road. The sidewall was held in place just like Vittoria Mastik would.

Basically, with the Vittoria Mastik, I would use 2 thin layers of glue on the rim, 1 thin layer on the tire. And this will get me a good bond. However, if I use 2 thick layers of Vittoria on the rim and 1 thick layer on the tire, then this makes it MUCH harder to remove the tire (but the base tape will still be intact with the tire though, i.e., it won't rip away from the tire).

With the Weldwood, 1 medium layer on each surface is just about perfect, and still easier to remove compared to 2 thick layers of Vittoria on the rim plus 1 thick layer on the tire.

The base chemical ingredients of Vittoria is listed as "natural rubber" with hexane as the solvent. And contains no toulene (which is a solvent). The base chemical of the Weldwood is latex in toulene solvent. I believe toluene has been banned in some states. Toluene and hexane are organic solvents. I'm no PhD, but that's pretty damn close enough for bicycle works for me.

Now I'm not sure what "natural rubber" means on the Vittoria, but it sounds like latex to me. Afterall, these types of glue are basically latex based glue dissolved in an organic solvent (hexane, toulene), and it's the latex that is the "gluing agent" after the solvent has evaporated away (in about 10 minutes the glue will dry to a semi-wet glaze). The tackiness of the Weldwood and Vittoria is very similar feel to the hand after their respective base solvents have evaporated.

2x 3oz bottles of Weldwood almost equal one 250g can of Vittoria.
Cost of 2 cans of Weldwood is less than $10. Cost of 1 can of Vit is about $25

Anyway, just thought I have a preliminary report on this experiment. So far, it does look promising substitute. And it's also the cheapest possible substitute I've found. I understand safety and getting the right tool for the job is important, so if you ain't comfortable, don't use.

BTW, I have also use the Weldwood for patching clinchers tubes with great success as it's stronger than than typical rubber cement you find with any ole patch kit. So it can definitely be used as patch glue substitute.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

It will be interesting to see how this works out. 

Curious, how often do you remove a tubular that you intend to save? The reason I ask is that I've only done that once so high adhesion is the number one consideration for me. I usually cut through the tire and peel it off with pliers.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Interesting, it looks pretty similar to Vittoria. Keep us informed. Is it stringy at all?


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> It will be interesting to see how this works out.
> 
> Curious, how often do you remove a tubular that you intend to save? The reason I ask is that I've only done that once so high adhesion is the number one consideration for me. I usually cut through the tire and peel it off with pliers.


Well once the tire is on, I have no intention of removing it unless it's a must. A flat is a must, obviously. However, recently I had to remove a glued tire because I had to rebuild the wheel. The wheel you see in here has the glue on there for almost a year, and it's still holding on to the tire tight like day 1. However, I will say that on freshly glued tire (less than a few weeks old), the glue is harder to remove, I have to use more acetone and elbow scrubbing. On a tire that is a year old, I can get away with less acetone. But make no mistake, glued tires are holding tight even after a year. And it makes sense. These latex based glues are pretty much insoluble to water and most things. Unless it rains acetone or xylene or hexane, these glues are pretty much "permanent" glue (i.e. the bond is permanent unless it's ripped apart by shear force), even the Vittoria one is a permanent glue.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Interesting, it looks pretty similar to Vittoria. Keep us informed. Is it stringy at all?


Yes it's stringy, but not as stringy as the vittoria when it's still wet. Because the vittoria is more viscous, it has the effect of more stringy. But if you allow the Weldwood a bit more time to evaporate, then it too will become just as stringy as the Vittoria. That is why i said the Weldwood is easier to apply due to its lower viscosity. You don't have spiderwebs danglying all over the place and then have to clean up the webs of glue with acetone. On the other hand, because the Weldwood is a tad less viscous, it may drip onto the ground if you get too much of it onto your brush. But overall, the Weldwoos is easier to apply evenly. Another benefit of the less viscous Weldwood is that you can now easier apply it closer to the edge of the rim without going into the brake tracks. With the thicker Vittoria, it's hard to have such fine control.

and once the Weldwood is allowed to dry to a glaze (10 minutes), then it's pretty much indistinguishable from the Vitt from texture, tackiness, and feel.

Another interesting thing I just noticed. Vitt Mastik is made in Thailand. Weldwood is made in the USA. One would think that latex based glue made in Thailand should be cheaper than a latex based glued made in the USA eh. Hmm color me cynical.. but.. ehrr, Vitt is making serious profit selling $25 bux for that 250g can.

Another plus for the Weldwood is that it's readily available at.... Home Depot. Boom!


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

some more interesting info I dug up regarding the Weldwoon and the 3M Fast Tack

Weldwood info:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/PDF/MSDS/DAP_WeldwoodContactCement.pdf

3M info:
https://www.planeplastics.com/pdf_cat/FAST-Tack/Fast_Tack_Trim.html

From the above links, here's what I gather

the 3M uses SBR-rubber, which is a synthetic rubber.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrene-butadiene

The Vittoria and Weldwood use latex, I'm assuming "natural rubber" listed in vitt is just latex.

The "softening point" of the 3M is 175F minimum.
The "boiling range" of the Weldwood is 170F - 180F

Not sure what the difference is between "softening point" and "boiling range" is, but I think for bicycle tubular application is concerned, once a glue starts to soften, then it's might as well be close to boiling because it's just mud now. Maybe a material expert can chime in here.

But one thing is for certain, those who have used the 3M glue all said it's harder to remove the tire compared to using the Vittoria. So 3M does appear to have a stronger bond, maybe a tad too strong even.

I make sure to wear gloves when working with these, don't wanna get cancer from these solvents!


----------



## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

I have used DAP weldwood for my basetape. I was shocked, after having a flat and repairing the tire, at how easy the basetape came off. Maybe its no good for gluing basetapes to a tire but I would be nervous about using it for a tubular tire. 

BTW, I'm an old school rider and use alloy rims (I don't know if this makes a difference).


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Maybe I will try using some Vittoria on basetape too. I'm guessing the basetape would come off just as easy or maybe even easier as using the Weldwood. The reason I say that is because in a few other experiment in using both glue to glue odd things together, the Weldwood seems to have the stronger bond

also keep in mind that you may not be using the right process to glue the basetape on. The Weldwood is less viscous, so you might have needed to use multiple layers of glue, and you might have needed to at least put some pressure on the basetape and hold it there for the bond to cure. After all, when you use the glue in gluing the tire to rim, you pump up the tire to like 100 psi and the psi will press the tire to rim much tighter than it presses basetape to tire. I'm not sure of the process of gluing basetape to be honest, but would imagine if you don't get enough glue on both surfaces, then bonding will be pretty weak.

The glue holding the basetape does seem to be stronger than the tubular glue though. I mean I used 2 thick layers of Vitt on the rim and 1 thick layer on the tire, and while this bond makes the tubular tire very very difficult to remove by hands, but even then when I remove the tire, the basetape is still completely intact to the tire. So it makes me think that whatever glue, or process, they use for the basetape, it makes it a stronger bond than even Vittoria glue.

maybe you can try the 3M stuff or even Barge shoe gloo. Folks who have tried 3M said it's pretty damn hard to remove the tire by hand on the road. The Barge shoe glue stuff once it's on it's pretty damn hard to pry apart too.

but I don't think I would want a bond as strong as that holding the basetap to tire to hold my tubular tire to rim. That strong of a bond would make removing the tire almost impossible with bare hand. Probably will need to destroy the tire to remove it.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> This question has been asked before. Here's a thread on it right here on RBR:
> 
> Alternative common glue for tubular tires?
> 
> ...


Lots of suggested glue alternatives for tubulars over the past few decades. Funny how we always come back to "the real thing." Most of the proposed alternatives either stick too well (impossible to change a tire out on the road), attack the base tape, fail in the heat, dry out quickly, etc.

Try anything you like but you shouldn't be surprised when a glue made specifically for tires works best.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Interesting. I'd like a follow up report in 6 months. 

I think that would be my concern using something other that cycling-specific glue/tape. What if it fails?



Also, what's wrong with tape? 

I went with tape this season. So I had new carbon wheels, new vittoria graphene tires, and enough tape for just one wheel. And I didn't have time before the races to order more. I ended up at a shop across town that only had some exotic, super pricey Velox Jantex tape. I used Tufo in the back and velox in the front. The wheels, tape, and 25mm tires makes me totally fearless with my cornering and descending.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ok so I just had a chance to glue one tire on with this Weldwood, and it has sat for 24 hr to bond. I used 1 layer (ie., one brush stroke layer) on the rim, 1 layer on the tire, and when I tried to peel the tire with my fingers, it feels just about the same as using one 1 layer of the Vittoria on the rim and 1 on the tire. This is on a freshly glued tire. We'll see how it hold a few months from now as the glue detoriate from heat cycling.

I suspect 2 layers of Weldwood on the rim and 1 layer on the tire will be strong enough for most folks. I'm 123-124 lbs so I went with 1 layer each.

I know when I went with 2 layers of Vittoria on the rim plus 2 layers on the tire, removing the tire was a realll *****! Took like 10 min to crack that sucker from the rim

All this makes sense to me since both of the glues are based on latex. When their solvents have evaporated, what you're left is pretty much latex as the bonding agent.

The other thing to note is that the Weldwood is thinner (less viscous) than the Vittoria, so you would have to use more of it if you're a big guy for good bond, but the Weldwood is also much cheaper.

I will try to remember to report back in 2-3 months to see how the glue is holding up.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Interesting. I'd like a follow up report in 6 months.
> 
> I think that would be my concern using something other that cycling-specific glue/tape. What if it fails?
> 
> ...


according to Cxwrench, don't use it. I have never used tape so I can't say. Always have used glue myself. I have multiple wheelsets on standby so if I get a flat, I can take my time changing the tire while another wheelset goes on. The most time consuming is the glue removal, and yes, I remove pretty much all old glue from the rim. Usually takes about 1 hr to remove it using only Goo Gone (earth friendly) and acetone. It's a pain in the ass, usually it's like apply Goo gone on the old glue, wait 10 min for the goo gone to melt the glue, wipe with rag,.. repeat like 4-6 times until the glue is all wiped away. Then use acetone as the final wiping agent (it takes away the oily residue of goo gone).

I guess I can use a stronger solvent like xylene or benzene, but this sh*t is toxic to both the skin and to the lungs (via vapor inhalation), but they remove any latex glue quick! Using gasoline or kerosene is also a good way to dissolve latex quick, but this is also toxic too. So I'll take my time with Goo gone and acetone.


----------



## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

It's a bit old, but in 1997-2001 Calvin Jones & Colin Howatt published a series of articles on performance of various tubular gluing materials & techniques.

It's the only reasonably scientific analysis I've ever seen.

3M "Fast Tack" was one of the adhesives evaluated, and Vittoria Mastik One outperformed it by a significant margin.

Gluing technique can also affect tire rolling resistance Crr, although they didn't test that.

If I'm hurtling downhill at 50 mph, I'd rather trust a tubular-specific adhesive that has a long history of satisfactory performance -- not a weatherstrip, laminate, or shoe-sole adhesive !

At the end of the day, Why bother? 
What do you hope to gain? 
Saving a couple $ on glue cost, is last on my priority list.


----------



## egebhardt (Feb 17, 2007)

I'll be using DAP Weldwood for the new Tufo S3 Lite tires i just bot. 
Sure, I'll save 30 bux but Home Depot is 2 miles away. The Vittoria or Continental glue is 1 week away. DAP Weldwood for me! I don't see any reason to wait a week for glue. As ACLinjury explained, it's latex glue.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Long time tubular user here: FasTack started being used by track cyclists years ago because it set really quickly. the downside of FasTack is that it dries out within a few months, which somestimes could leave you completely unglued. FasTack should only be used by those who will be removing their tires within a couple of months.

In the past, I have used 'alternative' applications on tubulars, namely latex tent-repair liquid for re-seating base tapes and refurbishing sidewalls of older tubulars. Seems to be essentially the same stuff, but a lot cheaper due to the lack of brand name, and lack of cycling industry markup.

When it comes to glue, however, I'm not willing to risk it. You can buy an entire box of Challenge tubular glue in 2-tire small tubes on Amazon for about $1/tube. These should last years unopened. Can't see the advantage to risking yourself to save less than 50 cents a tire...


----------



## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Personally, I miss FastTack. Can’t get it anymore.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

GKSki said:


> Personally, I miss FastTack. Can’t get it anymore.





GKSki said:


> Personally, I miss FastTack. Can’t get it anymore.


Even at Pep Boys??


----------

