# Crit cornering techniques



## marimba_artist (Dec 10, 2001)

I only have a little bit of experience racing crits. I know there are three ways to take corners at speed:
(1) lean the bike (not your body)
(2) lean your body (not the bike)
(3) lean both your body and the bike
My question is, when are the appropriate times to use each cornering technique? or does it not really matter and is only personal preference? thanks for any advice.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

marimba_artist said:


> I only have a little bit of experience racing crits. I know there are three ways to take corners at speed:
> (1) lean the bike (not your body)
> (2) lean your body (not the bike)
> (3) lean both your body and the bike
> My question is, when are the appropriate times to use each cornering technique? or does it not really matter and is only personal preference? thanks for any advice.


In normal conditions, lean both equally like the picture below. If you were to watch this rider you would actually see him lift the bike on the inside pedal stroke if he is pedaling through the corner. If it's slippery (wet), I like to keep the bike more upright and lean the body.

BTW - See those bricks in the picture? They don't qualify as "normal."

TF


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

*Holy CRAP!*



TurboTurtle said:


> In normal conditions, lean both equally like the picture below. If you were to watch this rider you would actually see him lift the bike on the inside pedal stroke if he is pedaling through the corner. If it's slippery (wet), I like to keep the bike more upright and lean the body.
> 
> BTW - See those bricks in the picture? They don't qualify as "normal."
> 
> TF


Is that Hincapie? Mother of mercy... I wish I could corner like that.

For the novice who doesn't have this type of control...

1) scrub speed before you reach the corner
2) point your knee into the corner (or press your knee against the TT)
3) outside leg down (6 o'clock), weight on your outside leg
4) pull up on your outside handlebar (or push down on your inside)
5) look where you want to go
.. and you'll glide right through that corner.

Works for me... but I can't corner like _that_ ... yet.

Oh and... try not to corner when it's wet.


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

Yowsers...

You got that on video? If not I say that is a perfectly timed picture right before the rider lost some skin.

Road bikes only lean so far, that looks to be beyond what the bike can handle.


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## MikeCee (Feb 9, 2005)

*I'm pretty sure...*

that's Robbie Ventura, crit specialist extroardinaire. (Recently retired). I bet he made it.


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Float*

Wonder what pedals he is using to have his left heel kicked out so far. Looks to me like he is clipping out. Maybe he is going to drag is foot like the motorcycle riders do. Don't the motorcycle riders have steel soled shoes for that? Quite an impressive picture.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

MikeCee said:


> that's Robbie Ventura, crit specialist extroardinaire. (Recently retired). I bet he made it.


Correct on the rider, but you loose your bet. Remember what I said about those bricks that his back tire is just about to hit? Last corner of the US Pro Crit Champs in Downers. - TF


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## Tequila Joe (May 30, 2004)

To get that good, you need to practice whenever you get a chance, no matter where you are; 

1. With the kids at the park
2. Dropping the kids off at school,
3. At work
4. Even when your "dropping the boys off at the pool"

Tequila


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> 4) pull up on your inside handlebar


That one's not working for me. I've heard of countersteering by pushing forward or down on the inside bar, pulling up on the _outside_.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

Now I'm all confused. This from Bicycling Magazine 



> A. On the road, you lean your body and bike together. On trails, you can't do that because the terrain often won't let you. Instead, on a mountain bike you float with your body more centered then turn the bar and lean the bike to corner. To really fly through turns on the road, countersteer by pushing down sharply on the handlebar on the opposite side of the direction you want to turn about two wheel lengths before the turn. For example, push down on the right side of the bar if you want to turn left. This move makes your bike snap back into the turn, giving you a quick entry into the turn and a sharper lean than you'd get by just sticking your knee out the old-school way. Also, by keeping your inside knee in and pushing it against the top tube, you control your line. The more pressure, the sharper the turn and lean.
> 
> Cadel Evans, the youngest World Cup mountain bike champion at 20 years old, converted to full-time road racing in 2002 and even wore the pink leader's jersey in the Tour of Italy last year. Now 26, he rides for the German Team Telekom.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

*corrections, sorry to be a pain*

I just had to jump in... for what it's worth I've raced (and coached) for a number of years and taught a bunch of women crit technique and tactics. I don't like to see people make common mistakes:

_ 1) scrub speed before you reach the corner_​I take exception to the term 'scrub'. Getting hard into the brakes before a corner will at best get you termed a 'novice' and at worst get you screamed at. Mountain bikers (and triathletes) crossing over to the road tend to go hot into corners then smoke the brakes at the last minute before diving in on a weird angle and it makes us roadies nuts. The tendency in lower cat races for everyone to overbrake is also what contributes to the sketchy inchworm effect. 

While I totally agree that the operative goal is NOT to brake WITHIN the corner, please keep in mind that most races (ESPECIALLY women's races) never come anywhere near reaching the limits of adhesion on any corner, particularly not a standard 90. Relax your upper body and learn how to ride a proper line / apex thru corners instead. You'll soon learn the trick of not backing off so much. Women's fields in a crit, to use a quote from a Cat 2 guy I know, often look almost like they're racing underwater, the speeds are that much slower than a men's race. If the guys are going through that same corner 10-15mph faster, then it's a good bet with proper technique you could too, especially as women naturally have a lower centre of balance. Also, what I've noted from many years' experience is that nearly all Cat 3/4 women's fields have absolutely no idea of what a proper line is thru a corner. They either 'clip the apex' by choking up against the entryside curb, or take a big loopy (and slow) outside line. Proper line at speed goes outside curb/inside curb/outside curb as straight as possible with very little to no slowing; watch Superbikes / motorcycle racing for cornering pointers if you need a visual. When I started racing 1/2/3 with the likes of Dede Demet-Barry and Mari Holden, I noticed how cornering at speeds in excess of 30mph quickly sorted out the good bike handlers from the rest (and yes, that took a fair bit of mental readjustment on my part, too).

Keep your speed steady through the turns as much as you are able. If everyone is braking around you, this is a cue and a good opportunity to smoothly move up, so learn how to take advantage of this (without being squirrelly and diving around) rather than merely adding to the accordion. Tip: Stick around and watch the P/1/2 guys race. Even the Cat 3 men don't brake much, or even noticeably slow down going into corners.

_4) pull up on your inside handlebar_​Um, actually you should be (yes) weighting the outside leg, but leading / pushing (i.e. weighting) the INSIDE HAND, just like a ski racer going for a slalom gate. Thus effectively turning the bike into a weighted, balanced parallelogram with maximum adhesion to the road. Leading / pushing down with the inside hand also sets up the steering angle to smoothly track the bike thru corners. Pulling up on the inside hand merely unweights the front end and leads to any and every form of sketchiness, thus causing pothole skitters and weird apex lines. I assume this tip was given as a way to combat locked-elbow syndrome, but in the course of coaching I've had to fix a number of riders with this tendency. At best it's ineffective and at worst wrong.

Additionally, cock your bum / outside hip a tad to the outside of the saddle as you weight that pedal. Raising your butt off the seat a couple of millimetres drops your centre of gravity to the bottom bracket and increases tyre adhesion considerably.

Cornering is a zen thing. Relax, lose the death grip on the handlebars, keep your elbows loose, look where you want to go, not at things that freak you out. Don't stare directly at the rider in front of you. Look up the field to anticipate gaps / attacks / opportunities. Keep your elbows bent, and stay in the drops if you're comfortable there.

And finally: practise. Practise, practise, practise. Get with a better rider, ideally a Cat 1/2 or experienced Masters' guy who's a good 'critter' and have him lead you through corners in an empty office park or quiet neighbourhood at gradually increasing speeds. Following better riders is one of the best ways to internalise line, body positioning and moreover keeping up with them will soon teach you that you can go faster than you thought was 'safe'.


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

bill said:


> That one's not working for me. I've heard of countersteering by pushing forward or down on the inside bar, pulling up on the _outside_.


You're absolutely right, it's a typo! Thanks for catching it.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

bill said:


> Now I'm all confused. This from Bicycling Magazine


It's Bicycling Magazine. What do you expect!

To counter steer you turn in the opposite direction that you want to go - that's why they call it counter. If you push down on the right bar, the wheel turns to the left, you lean to the right and turn to the right.

TF


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

By "scrub", I mean gently apply the brakes to reach the correct speed, not slam on your brakes and burn rubber.

The second is a typo, I meant "outside". It's been fixed.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

*yes, and we ALL know...*



bill said:


> Now I'm all confused. This from Bicycling Magazine


What a WEALTH of great information that publication has (not)  

Bill, you are correct. Weight the inside hand, pushing forward. See my earlier post up the thread a ways. 

Countersteer is merely a quick flick to the outside, before cutting the bike over. It's not really even a weight shift per se. And radical countersteer (i.e. getting a MTB around a tight sandy switchback) is almost never needed in most crits, until you really start hauling serious butt in +90 deg cornering situations. It's very hard to describe, you just have to watch someone do it.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

lonefrontranger said:


> What a WEALTH of great information that publication has (not)
> 
> Bill, you are correct. Weight the inside hand, pushing forward. See my earlier post up the thread a ways.
> 
> Countersteer is merely a quick flick to the outside, before cutting the bike over. It's not really even a weight shift per se. And radical countersteer (i.e. getting a MTB around a tight sandy switchback) is almost never needed in most crits, until you really start hauling serious butt in +90 deg cornering situations. It's very hard to describe, you just have to watch someone do it.


Or borrow a motorcycle and take it up to about 50 mph. Gently push on one side of the bars and feel it start to lean and turn. - TF


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

*Everybody does it just a little different*

I'll usually set up for a turn by counter-steering. After that I'll make minor corrections (Either my choice, or the packs choice) the same way. I try to stay neutral (In line with the bike) as much as I can. I've had my best results in the rain when you just pretend that the road is dry. A lot of riders will back way off in the last turn. If you touch your front brake in a turn, you often will go down. In the rain, you will allways go down.
There is a limit to which you can take a turn. Robbie Ventura discovered that last year at Downers Grove. I'm happy to say that I once did the same stupid thing in the last turn.


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## ricebowls (Jun 11, 2004)

Here's some guidlines that have helped me corner better hoefully they'll work for you too:

Cornering sequence:
1. Brake (usually just a speed check if at all and I try to keep it to "straight line" braking)
2. Release
3. Turn
4. Accelerate (the earlier the better)

And when I train by myself I actually say the sequence as I do it which works wonders on downhills.

Also another trick that helps "looking" is to verbally name what you see to yourself. So I'll spot a tree or a light post or what have you that helps mark the line I'm after. The key is to actually say it which forces you to spot it.


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## catboy (Sep 16, 2004)

MikeCee said:


> that's Robbie Ventura, crit specialist extroardinaire. (Recently retired). I bet he made it.



NOPE!

...he sacrificed the flesh that day!

it does look cool though!


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Never brake. Don't think about anything technical, look forwards of your line and BE the line.

If you are braking before the corner, why have you gone so fast into it? I am a pretty good conserver, and I find myself not pedalling when others pedal, and not braking when others are braking. YMMV on downhill left handers, etc.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*In addition....*



Spunout said:


> Never brake. Don't think about anything technical, look forwards of your line and BE the line.
> 
> If you are braking before the corner, why have you gone so fast into it? I am a pretty good conserver, and I find myself not pedalling when others pedal, and not braking when others are braking. YMMV on downhill left handers, etc.


If you're looking AT the corner when you ride through it, you've already kind of "lost". Like Spunout said, look through the corner, look way ahead of the corner. Your head should not be down, you should be looking ahead and through the corner. I learned that valuable skill during my ski racing years, you had to look way ahead of your line. Same thing for bike racing.


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## khill (Mar 4, 2004)

*Dragged from the bookmarks*

Here's a link I found here a while back:

http://www.racelistings.com/rzone/articles/article.asp?recid=320

- khill


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## ricebowls (Jun 11, 2004)

"In countersteering you incline the bike relatively more than the body. This tends to be the fastest way to corner a bicycle but also takes a great amount of skill and practice to accomplish."

I believe this is actually Counter Leaning. Counter steering entails a slight turn of the bike to the opposite direction of the corner before dropping into the corner. This allows the bike to "carve" through the corner.


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## sinkingship (Oct 29, 2004)

Good god, there is some really bad cornering advice on this thread. 

For starters, if you brake going into a corner you are going to lose alot of speed through the turn. When you come out of the turn, you will have to accelerate alot more than everyone else in the pack. You need to be able to put in one or two pedal strokes between the time you apply the breaks and the time you enter the corner (or lean over enough such that you can no longer pedal). That means *break early* then reaccelerate a bit, then initiate your turn. You can even pedal as you are initiating your turn...

Second, those pictures of guys on motorcycles putting their knee way into a corner, well, that's just not really applicable to bike racing. Their machines weigh a couple of hundred pounds, and when they start to lose traction they put a bit more throttle on the back wheel. A bicycle, at the point where traction is lost, is leaned over too much for you to increase traction by pedalling. They also have really finely tuned suspension systems, dialed in for high speed cornering. On a road bike your suspension becomes your elbows and knees.

In a dry crit, without sand, gravel, or huge patches of slippery stuff in the road, I believe the best way to corner is..

1) Adjust speed (including the reacceleration)
2) Site your line. Even if you are not the first one through the corner you should know what line you will be riding through the turn.
3) Make sure you cover the guy on your inside. He can crash you easier than anyone else around you. If he moves, so do you. Even if this means riding the guy on your outside to the curb.
4) Outside leg firm on the pedal
5) Inside leg UP, knee against the top tube (this is what Robbie is doing in that picture!!!)
6) Press out/down on the side of the handlebar, in the direction in which you want to turn. Right turn means press out/down with your right hand. This turns the wheel LEFT but leans your bike RIGHT.
7) You kind of "pull the bike back under you" to make it stop turning. 
8) As soon as you have pedal clearance, you start to accelerate.

General principles:

It's important to keep you elbows lose. Tightening up usually means pulling towards the outside of the turn (read: curb/crash). 

Never brake in a turn. There are moments when it is an absolute neccesity, like a pile up in the turn... But if the guy in front of you crashes, remember that he will slide towards the apex (especially in the rain), so tightening up your line will usually get you past him. 

In wet conditions, or times when you have poor traction, keep the bike more upright or lean with it. This is considered a "neutral" turn and is generally slower but safer in bad conditions.

In you are going through a turn that has a camber sloping away from the apex, you need to realize that the point at which you lose traction is going to be easier to achieve. That means you need to lean the bike less, which in turn means your speed has to be a bit lower or your approach needs to be wider.

If you are mid-pack in a lower category race, it's usually really easy to find spots to advance on the OUTSIDE of turns. You hear many new riders talking about always taking the inside line... While it is the shortest path through the turn, it is not always the fastest. If you have 3 riders fighting for a spot, someone has to brake. If the person braking is infront of you, you need to slow down as well. On the outside of the turn, where no one is using the brakes quite so dramattically, you can find many spots and enter the corner at a higher speed as a result. Be careful if you do this in a higher category race as even savvy cat 3's will probably be wise enough to block you from passing him by pushing you to the curb when he sense you advancing. You will then slow down alot or crash.

Contact in corners is both invetible and survivable. Panic is what will make you fall down.

Finally, weight shifting. The placement of you weight is variable. The knee up and against the top tube method forces your weight to the outside pedal, which is why it is so fast. You should also be able to move your hips/pelvis forward, back, and to the side a little bit to counteract any unplanned forces you encounter mid-turn.


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## jimcav (Jun 15, 2003)

*hi, which knee do you point--the inside knee, and*

why do you pull up (as in straight up toward the sky?) 
seems like that would allow the fornt to slide outward?
thanks,
jim


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

jimcav said:


> why do you pull up (as in straight up toward the sky?)
> seems like that would allow the fornt to slide outward?
> thanks,
> jim


The inside knee, though most seem to keep it tight to the top tube.

Up was a typo - see rest of the posts.

TF


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