# Going to build a wheelset for.................



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

............me. I haven't built myself a wheelset for a long time and recently decided to treat myself. I do a lot of reading about wheel parts and quite a bit of advising people so now I get to do wheels my way. There's a lot of "flavor of the month" rims, hubs, spokes, nipples, (maybe rightly so) but I'm quite conservative when it comes to stuff like that as I know, from owning and testing lots of wheels, that not much makes a real difference in our performance. It's tough to buy speed via bike parts and wheelset parts aren't much different.

So I'll be buying good quality stuff but it won't be cutting edge light or aero. I'm not cutting edge light or aero so my wheel parts don't need to be either.

I like a good chase so I'll search out my parts on the internet. Half the enjoyment will be getting the parts, the other half will be building the wheels and third half (!) will be the maiden voyage. The first ride on home-built wheels is a massive rush for me.

One of my very favorite hubsets is DuraAce 7900. Sure there are more trendy hubs (Alchemy?), more expensive hubs (King? DT240?), more shiny hubs (White Industries?) but there's not a thing wrong with the slightly out-of-favor Dura Ace. Their titanium cassette carrier is great; it uses my beloved  Morningstar Freehub Buddy for a great purging and re-lubing experience and the bearings are just excellent. It just looks good too. The 7900 has a nice no-tool (ok you need 2 5mm allens) adjustment feature also. So simple and so effective. The Dura Ace QR's are probably the best available.

I found a rear 28 hole 7900 on closeout sale at Ribble mailorder in the UK and I couldn't live without it. I found a front 24 hole 7900 at RT Wheelcraft - a wheel business unknown to me until Terry Wittenberg's business came up in a Google hub search. The front hub arrived today. 

I haven't chosen a pair of rims yet and that's the next step. All I know is that they will be black, between 400 & 450 grams and with a machined brake track. I've had rims in the past where the pads remove the brake track color and that's not for me. An Asym rear rim isn't out of the question. DT? Velocity?

Spokes will be black Sapim CX-Ray, not for their aero qualities but just "because". They have been my spoke of choice for mountain-bike and road for fifteen years and I've yet to break one. I don't have many wheels without them and my buddy Thorsten is the importer. Nipples will be brass which is a big shift for me as I don't think I have a wheelset without aluminum nipples. For some reason I just fancy brass this time. They won't slow me down.

As my passion is wheelbuilding (it will never be my job) and my opinions on spoke "optimizing" to the n'th degree are well documented on my site, I'll be building them with as much care and passion as I can muster. If it takes me a week then so be it. I tell people not to rush and I'll be taking my own advice.

Here are my first parts -


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Awesome. 
Those look great.


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## Weav (Jun 21, 2009)

very nice Mike, good luck on the build. Let us know what rim you find.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Those look like sealed bearings, but their site says they're sticking to the old ways. (I prefer new sealed cartridge)
Don't go Velocity - their welds are horrid, I've just shipped back my wheels and am switching to the Belgiums. They're pricey, but from what I've heard they're about the best alloys out there.
I like the H Plus Sons, but no machined braking surface (boggles me as to why?)


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Peanya said:


> Are the new ones going to cartridge bearings???


I doubt it. I think Shimano are committed to loose balls  These old model 7900 sure are loose ball; I took a peek inside.



> Don't go Velocity - their welds are horrid, I've just shipped back my wheels and am switching to the Belgiums. They're pricey, but from what I've heard they're about the best alloys out there.


The Velocity were on my short-list due to their asym rear rim. I was considering Pacenti SL23 but the tight tire fitting is scaring me off. I don't wanna get stuck 20 miles from home with a pinched tube and CO2. All my current tires on all my current wheels go off & on just by using fingers. Those Hed Belgiums sure are expensive. I wonder how much the name adds?



> H Plus Sons, but no machined braking surface (boggles me as to why?)


That stopped them from being on my rim short-list.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

remember ...



Mike T. said:


> Next time I build a set of wheels I'm gonna do a test with both my geetar tuners - an audio one and one that senses vibration.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> remember ...


Thanks for the reminder c/man. Yep I will try it.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Those Hed Belgiums sure are expensive. I wonder how much the name adds?


At $130 per rim, it's definitely pricey, and IIRC HED increased C2 pricing to make their factory wheelsets more appealing? I found mine a while back for $90/rim which I was happy to pay.

They really built up really nice though, minimal truing required, nice even spoke tension. Weights were pretty close to advertised, I want to say 445-ish per rim for the 2 hoops I got.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> I was considering Pacenti SL23 but the tight tire fitting is scaring me off.


I have them on order and according to the tracking service they have cleared canada customs yesterday. So, if you are prepared to wait a day or two, you will have the benefit of Julio's opinion as to the difficulty of mounting tires.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

bikerjulio said:


> I have them on order and according to the tracking service they have cleared canada customs yesterday. So, if you are prepared to wait a day or two, you will have the benefit of Julio's opinion as to the difficulty of mounting tires.


Oh for sure Julio. You in Canada? Me too.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

You can always use Schwalbe tires with Pacenti, they're much easier to mount than other brands.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Oh for sure Julio. You in Canada? Me too.


And just a heads up, Prowheelbuilder has SL23's for $81, which is cheaper than BHS by a decent amount. I love BHS customer service and brandon has always done right by me, but I ordered a pair of SL23's from PWB this time around. Also got a 10% off which was a tdf discount.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Great shots of the hubs!

Regarding the rims I've been unimpressed with the Velocitys (the A23 in particular). They finish on them is pretty so-so and there's always a ton of extra drill shavings in the rim which tends to chew nips. I started seeing that so much in fact that I rarely ever build on the A23 anymore. 

I think that a Hed C2 would be a fitting rim on this hubset though. Yeah it's a spendy hoop but I think that the quality and consistency justifies the cost.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Oh for sure Julio. You in Canada? Me too.


I believe we have age and origin in common as well. I pay attention.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Great shots of the hubs!


Thanks! Might as well make the most of a rainy day eh?



> Regarding the rims I've been unimpressed with the Velocitys (the A23 in particular). They finish on them is pretty so-so and there's always a ton of extra drill shavings in the rim which tends to chew nips. I started seeing that so much in fact that I rarely ever build on the A23 anymore.


I read a report that claimed the same thing. That's a shame as I was hankerin' after an asym rear rim. I was just checking the DT 440 asym a few minutes ago. They should be good quality.



> I think that a Hed C2 would be a fitting rim on this hubset though. Yeah it's a spendy hoop but I think that the quality and consistency justifies the cost.


It would be nice to see them in real life but there isn't much chance of that happening. Thanks for your opinion Zen. Keep 'em coming.


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## bobonker (Feb 12, 2011)

The SL23s are more difficult to mount tires on than other rims I've encountered, but good technique and proper rim tape make the job pretty straightforward. With Stan's tape and attention to making sure that the bead is centered in the "well" of the rim bed, I can get tires on and off with minimal fuss. So far I've mounted/dismounted Conti GP4000s and Vittoria Open Corsa EVOs.

Bob


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Great shots of the hubs! ...


+1 ... Do like the droplets of water and the hubs angled at 2 and 10 o'clock. :thumbsup:


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> +1 ... Do like the..............hubs angled at 2 and 10 o'clock. :thumbsup:


That's what Mickey's hands were on and I used that for inspiration.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Mike: I'm pretty conservative too. My last wheelset was built on a 28hole Dura Ace 7850 for the rear, 24 hole CK Classic for the front, CXRays and brass nipples laced 2X all the way around to Kinlin 279 rims. The Kinlin rims aren't the lightest, but they did build up very easily. I'm very happy with the way they ride and I will be taking them to ride in CO the first week in August. 

I'm going to give the Pacenti SL 23s a try for my next set.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cdhbrad said:


> I'm going to give the Pacenti SL 23s a try for my next set.


You're not concerned with the tight tire fit reports?


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> I don't wanna get stuck 20 miles from home with a pinched tube and CO2. All my current tires on all my current wheels go off & on just by using fingers. Those Hed Belgiums sure are expensive.
> .


The HED C2 NOS have machined brake tracks and they do not need any tools to change tires with (at least Conti GP 4S and 4000s). They are still a few around for around $100/rim.

The new generation C2 are anodized black all around like the Archetype. Dont like that.


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## joe4702 (Aug 31, 2008)

Those hubs look so sweet. So they are loose ball, but the bearing preload is adjusted with hex wrenches? That sounds like the best of both worlds. I like my Ultegra loose-ball hubs, but getting the preload adjusted correctly using multiple cone wrenches and lock nuts is tedious.

Have you considered DT Swiss rims? 
I have grey RR465s that seem nicely made with a machined brake track.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

joe4702 said:


> Those hubs look so sweet. So they are loose ball, but the bearing preload is adjusted with hex wrenches? That sounds like the best of both worlds. I like my Ultegra loose-ball hubs, but getting the preload adjusted correctly using multiple cone wrenches and lock nuts is tedious.


Yes they are loose ball but this is how they adjust - you insert two 5mm's into each QR hole and remove the NDS locking cap. Then you remove a cap that is flat-indexed onto a flat on the axle. The inside diameter of this cap is a serrated. The cone is next and it's serrated on its outside diameter. Turn these cone serrations with the fingers to adjust the bearings. When you're happy, place the cap over the cone. The serrations lock to each other and the axle flat stops the cap (& cone) from rotating. Re-fit the locking cap and tighten with the 5mm's. Done. It took me 10x longer to type it than it does to do it. 

Hey, I'll strip the hub down and snap a pic & post. Don't go away.



> Have you considered DT Swiss rims? I have grey RR465s that seem nicely made with a machined brake track.


Yes they are on my list and the asym rear rim is interesting.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

joe4702 said:


> Those hubs look so sweet. So they are loose ball, but the bearing preload is adjusted with hex wrenches? That sounds like the best of both worlds. I like my Ultegra loose-ball hubs, but getting the preload adjusted correctly using multiple cone wrenches and lock nuts is tedious.


Here are the 7900's internals - after using the 5mm's to remove the NDS locking cap and (black) adjusting cap it's all finger adjustment from there. Just turn the cone. Ingenious. The other ingenious thing is this - as the cap and its locking nut do not press on the cone (they press on the end of the axle flat spot; the serrations just stop the cone from turning) then QR pressure has *NO* effect on bearing adjustment. -


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Not really, most tires are hard to put on when new. I find that after tires are on wheels a while, they are easier to get back on. Where I ride, the roads are good and I don't have many flats. 

Enjoy your new wheels, I'm sure they will be well built whatever rim you choose.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cdhbrad said:


> Not really, most tires are hard to put on when new.


That hasn't been my personal findings with my fave Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX tires and either OP rims or BWW rims. It's finger fitting from the get-go for me. I guess I'm spoiled and I don't want to struggle when blinded by sweat.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

My Pacenti's arrived today. Only 9 days from BHS to Canada which is pretty good. No taxes either on the package. Whoo Hoo. Just finished building the front. Very easy and quick wheel to get built. 

Mounted slightly used PR4's in 25mm. Used cloth tape. Levers are required, but it was done without any bad language. 

Inflated 25mm PR4's measure 27mm.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

bikerjulio said:


> My Pacenti's arrived today. Only 9 days from BHS to Canada which is pretty good. No taxes either on the package. Whoo Hoo. Just finished building the front. Very easy and quick wheel to get built.
> Mounted slightly used PR4's in 25mm. Used cloth tape. Levers are required, but it was done without any bad language.
> Inflated 25mm PR4's measure 27mm.


My last 4 packages in the last month - 2 from USA and 2 from UK - I got nipped for taxes on one of each. Two weeks (10 working days) for a package from TX.
I talked to Brandon about Pacenti recently and he suggested using the thin Pacenti rim tape. Good to know that tire fitting wasn't too difficult. I'm still nervous from reading those two recent threads though. Of course it could be that they were all girlie-men.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

The rims look FAT. I feel like I should be using them with my 40mm cross bike tires.

BTW rim weights were 455 and 458g.

Finished front wheel was 642g.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

We are going to get pics of both sets of wheels, right?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Since it's you, here's the front. The back wheel will be tomorrow.

View attachment 284765


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

Hey Mike! 
I imagine I'm not the only one interested in OC rims and you're one of the few truly qualified to build, test and write a meaningful review of one. Hoping you go that route! :thumbsup:


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Randy99CL said:


> Hey Mike!
> I imagine I'm not the only one interested in OC rims and you're one of the few truly qualified to build, test and write a meaningful review of one. Hoping you go that route! :thumbsup:


Hey Mike

please tell me too, whatever an OC rim is. I really want to know since I'm not qualified.


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

DT Swiss has a wide rim out, the RR440. You can even get it asymmetrical. They have eyelets and proper wear indicators. DT rims are very round and true. Yes, they aren't as wide as the Sl23, but the build quality on DT rims is so high, they are hard to resist.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

bikerjulio said:


> Hey Mike
> please tell me too, whatever an OC rim is. I really want to know since I'm not qualified.


After reading Mikes' website and his posts here I'm impressed with his experience, knowledge and writing ability. He's also not a professional wheelbuilder so has no particular product bias.

You really don't know what an OC rim is?
Velocity A23 Off Center Rim - YouTube


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Asymetric rim. Evens out rear spoke tension.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

With Brandons' import rear disc hubs the flange offset difference is only 3.5mm. The Velocity A23 OC rim is offset 4mm so the spoke length difference is only 0.5mm. With the spokes effectively the same length the DS/NDS tension should be very close to equal, right?
OC rims should help on a disc front wheel too.

Sounds like a great idea to me; I don't know why OC rims aren't more popular than they are.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Randy99CL said:


> After reading Mikes' website and his posts here I'm impressed with his experience, knowledge and writing ability. He's also not a professional wheelbuilder so has no particular product bias.
> 
> You really don't know what an OC rim is?
> Velocity A23 Off Center Rim - YouTube


What a great video! Thanks for that.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> What a great video! Thanks for that.


You're welcome Mike! I like that he explains the science with angles/stresses.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Randy99CL said:


> You're welcome Mike! I like that he explains the science with angles/stresses.


It kinda makes you wonder why ALL rear rims aren't asymmetrical doesn't it?


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## joe4702 (Aug 31, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> Here are the 7900's internals - after using the 5mm's to remove the NDS locking cap and (black) adjusting cap it's all finger adjustment from there. Just turn the cone. Ingenious. The other ingenious thing is this - as the cap and its locking nut do not press on the cone (they press on the end of the axle flat spot; the serrations just stop the cone from turning) then QR pressure has *NO* effect on bearing adjustment. -



Very cool. Thanks for the photos.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

Mike T. said:


> It kinda makes you wonder why ALL rear rims aren't asymmetrical doesn't it?


Lots of rear wheels with symmetrical rims are built with differing lacing patterns on DS and NDS to makeup the difference. 

Asymmetrical rims allow you to lace up the same style DS and NDS with less difference. 

Ideally, Asymmetrical or symmetrical rims are equally good depending on how good the wheelbuilder is. The combination of lacing patterns and nipple/spoke choice play a huge role in whether the rim is right for your type of use.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

strathconaman said:


> DT Swiss has a wide rim out, the RR440.
> 
> You can even get it asymmetrical. They have eyelets and proper wear indicators. DT rims are very round and true. Yes, they aren't as wide as the Sl23, but the build quality on DT rims is so high, they are hard to resist.


They probably *are* really good on the build quality/QC, just as DT usually is and just as you say... but 21mm is more 'semi-wide' than wide. 

It's odd that DT still doesn't have a fairly light/high-performance 'true' wide rim out yet. Many of the other rim-makers do (H+Son, Pacenti, HED, ENVE, Velocity, etc).


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Vittoria clinchers did run on the large side when I ran the Open Corsas. Now, I use either Conti 4000s or Michelin Pro4 and, between those two, the Pro4s are hardest to mount when fresh from the box.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

bikerjulio said:


> Since it's you, here's the front. The back wheel will be tomorrow.
> 
> View attachment 284765


Awww, sweet. That would look some nice on my new bike. Is it still sitting outside?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

The rear Pacenti was finished this morning and a test ride was done.

To recap the build is 20/28 BHS hubs, Sapim Laser spokes, radial front, 2X on rear, Brass nipples. I'm not hard on wheels, but am in the 190# range, so this was a conservative build.

Front was 642g, rear was 822g for a total of 1,464g.

Rims were easy to build up, Tires are 25mm PR4's which measure 27mm installed. These wheels were for my BMC and they just fit. They feel stiff, good braking, comfortable running about 70/80 psi. I'll probably play a bit with air pressure. Tires were indeed hard to mount, but not impossible. Levers are a must. There was a dropoff in tension after mounting tires, probably in the order of 5-10%. Test was over the usual crappy downtown roads, and the wheels stayed true. All in all I'm happy so far.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

bikerjulio said:


> The rear Pacenti was finished this morning and a test ride was done.


Cool!! Happiness is a new set of wheels.



> Tires were indeed hard to mount, but not impossible. Levers are a must.


That would bother me. I wouldn't be comfortable being 20-30 miles from home (or even 2 miles) with my normal 2 tubes and two CO2s and the potential of holes in my new tubes from installation. OWLMV (others' worry level may vary).


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> That would bother me. I wouldn't be comfortable being 20-30 miles from home (or even 2 miles) with my normal 2 tubes and two CO2s and the potential of holes in my new tubes from installation. OWLMV (others' worry level may vary).


Real men use pumps. I can't tell you how many times where I've been on a group ride. someone flats, CO2 comes out and several cylinders get farked, and then the call goes out, "anyone got a pump?".

And since you have so much experience, a little tight tire mounting should not be a problem, right?

And for my friend in PE county, voila!

View attachment 284810


BTW why cannot the tire and rim stickers be the same way up??

Is it deliberate?


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## bobonker (Feb 12, 2011)

I flatted my rear SL23 yesterday with a GP4000S on it. Needed the tire lever for that last bit, but was pretty doable. I don't feel like it too me any longer to fix this flat than others I've had on other rims.

Bob


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

Have you decided on the rims? I am beginning to feel the itch ...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> Have you decided on the rims? I am beginning to feel the itch ...


Me? My people are entered into meaningful (& sensitive) negotiations with 3rd parties. A statement will be forthcoming at a future date when negotiations are complete and contracts signed. Until then, all other inquiries will be forwarded to our director of public relations at head office - Eileen Dover.


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

bobonker said:


> I flatted my rear SL23 yesterday with a GP4000S on it. Needed the tire lever for that last bit, but was pretty doable. I don't feel like it too me any longer to fix this flat than others I've had on other rims.
> 
> Bob


I've had two flats on mine and didn't have any issues changing the tube with just a tough of lever. In fairness, I always had to use a lever with my Kinlin 200s as well.


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## kauphy (May 13, 2013)

Decided yet, Mike? Curious to find out the eventual choice!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

kauphy said:


> Decided yet, Mike? Curious to find out the eventual choice!


You must be psychic. I was thinking, just minutes ago, as to whether I should post my rim choice. After *much* deliberation I decided to go with BWW's Blackset Race rim. BWW sells their rims (not just wheelsets) and seeing as I've had excellent results from my current BSR rims (their 4th or 5th summer underneath me now) I can't think of a good reason to change. I weighed up all the pros and cons of all the other rims that were on my radar - cost, weight, tire tightness etc. As I don't corner in anger anymore the new 23mm wide rims aren't a concern for me. I have no issues with using narrower 19mm rims. 

My old rims, AFAIK, are sub 400 grams. Also AFAIK, BWW had them re-designed to add a thicker spoke bed. They are now, according to BWW's Chris, 415 grams. I would think that spoke beds are made thicker to prevent spoke hole cracking but mine have been fine. I'm 172 lbs and I ride light and on good roads.

The rims are supposed to be on their way but they might be a while (2 weeks?) as I'm in Canada and BWW is in CA.

Next up, after I've measure the hubs and rim ERD will be deciding on spoke crosses. Right now I'm leaning to radial front and probably 2x rear. On my current 28h rear BSR wheel the x3 spokes are "past tangential" - meaning the spokes angle below horizontal. I don't suppose this matters but maybe 2x will give a better tangential pull.
As for front radials, I just can't think of a good reason not to. They don't need to transmit any driving force of course.

Opinions on spoke crossings are welcome.

The spokes will be Sapim CX-Ray all round. Brass nipples will be lubed with anti-sieze.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

I've built three 28h rears 2x/2x and they've been great.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I see this:


> Brass nipples will be lubed with anti-sieze.


And remember this from a week or so ago, where a certain Mike T shot me down for suggesting that brass nipples were a good idea. Guess I changed your mind? 




> Mike T.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

bikerjulio said:


> I see this:
> And remember this from a week or so ago, where a certain Mike T shot me down for suggesting that brass nipples were a good idea. Guess I changed your mind?


Nope, I haven't changed my mind. I've never had a problem with aluminum nipples (about 5-6ish personal wheelsets over 15-ish years) but I just, for some unknown reason, fancied doing brass nipples. Originally, back in the early thought process of these wheels I was going to do Lasers but decided to do another set with 'Rays. Can't explain any of it; it's just what I wanna do.

Unless I see the post I can't imagine that I said brass nipples were not a good idea. I might have said that alums would be ok. That's different.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Unless I see the post I can't imagine that I said brass nipples were not a good idea. I might have said that alums would be ok. That's different.


Here's the post in question - 



> Originally Posted by bikerjulio -
> I'd suggest that DS on the rear should nearly always be brass.





> Me - I own and have built many sets of wheels with aluminum nipples, for road, mountainbike & track and not a brass one in sight - and have never had a broken one either.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Here's the post in question -


My answer was trying to help a new builder on his first wheel. That basically it's a more conservative approach, with less chance of screwing things up if brass nipples are used.

After which you then jumped in and raised a leg on my post.

But then I'm not a wheelist who knows sooo much. 

We should ride sometime and I can show off my new Pacenti's


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## Bigfred* (Jun 29, 2013)

Mike, 

Something just doesn't seem "right" about the build you are suggesting. I've always viewed wheels as a composite structure that relies on a balanced approached to selecting component parts that compliment each other and the design brief for the particular build.

In this instance, you're starting with some decidely high class and reasonably light hubs that include a titanium freehub. Pairing those with decidely more costly than normal DBed, aero spokes. But, then using a bargain rim that I'm not sure even has a welded joint in combination with brass nipples.

It doesn't make sense to me to save only a few dollars on rims when you're already investing in top of the line hubs and spokes. It doesn't make any more sense to me to worry about saving weight at the center of rotation while using brass nipples and a heavy'ish (? what do the Blackset Race 13 weigh?) rim, adding weight furthest from the center of rotation where it has a much greater impact.

What's the design brief for these wheels?

Heavy'ish, work horse, everyday training wheels? The Blackset rims and brass nipples make sense. Paired to a reasonably affordable hub (105 or Ultegra since you share my appreciation for cup and cone bearings) and some regular old DB spokes.

Adding a reasonable degree of "bling" to some everyday wheels and maintaining a certain weight conciousness? The DA hubs and CX Ray spokes make perfect sense. But, would probably be more appropriate laced with alloy nipples (that you've previously expressed safisfaction with) to some of those DT Swiss 440 Asyms or the HED Belgium C2 (could HED come up with a more convoluted naming?). Both of which have a welded joint and the machined sidewalls you're after.

Just my thougths on the project.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

BSR rims have a welded joint and machined sidewalls. Rim weight (as already stated) 415g = quite light.

Fred, custom wheels are just that - custom. They're not cookie-cutter; chosen by an anonymous person. *We* (I) get to pick what *we* (I) want.


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## Bigfred* (Jun 29, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> BSR rims have a welded joint and machined sidewalls. Rim weight (as already stated) 415g = quite light.
> 
> Fred, custom wheels are just that - custom. They're not cookie-cutter; chosen by an anonymous person. *We* (I) get to pick what *we* (I) want.


Hey, You started the thread. Surely you expect comments from the peanut gallery.

The knowledge that the BSR rims only weight 415 makes them seem less out of place.

I understand perfectly well the nature of "custom" wheels.


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## 4slomo (Feb 11, 2008)

Not to pick on you or anything, but don't forget braking force when considering your front spoke lacing pattern selection. Besides the rim brake/rim braking force, there is also the reaction braking force between the spokes and hub to consider. If you aren't concerned about a radial versus tangential force of the spokes at the front hub during braking, then maybe this won't be a issue for you.



Mike T. said:


> As for front radials, I just can't think of a good reason not to. They don't need to transmit any driving force of course.
> 
> Opinions on spoke crossings are welcome.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Bigfred* said:


> Hey, You started the thread. Surely you expect comments from the peanut gallery.


I never said I didn't. Comments are welcome and I asked for comments for spoking pattern, and maybe rim suggestions (I forget if I did or not; I haven't gone back to look). I'm just willing to "defend" my choices.



> The knowledge that the BSR rims only weight 415 makes them seem less out of place.


Yep, some of the rims I was considering were in the 450-470g range and I have proved I don't need rims that heavy (my current BSR are sub 400g). I do have a fair number of spokes to support those light rims (24/28).

You questioned my nipple choice. I say on my site that even though I've found aluminum nipples durable enough for my use, that their best feature is their colors as I don't think there is any performance benefit to them, not that we can measure anyway. So as I want silver nipples for this build, I decided to go with brass. But heck, even that could change before I'm done.


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## Bigfred* (Jun 29, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> You questioned my nipple choice.


Every man should get his choice of nipples.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Bigfred* said:


> Every man should get his choice of nipples.


Red (ahhh!) have always been my fave! Green (OMG!) my least favorite.


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## bobonker (Feb 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Red (ahhh!) have always been my fave! Green (OMG!) my least favorite.


Pink is where it's at. 

Bob


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Bigfred* said:


> Every man should get his choice of nipples.


It usually comes down to pink or brown.


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## Bigfred* (Jun 29, 2013)

SystemShock said:


> It usually comes down to pink or brown.


You guys seem fixed on colour choices. There's also the whole soft vs firm debate. In this case it sounds as though Mike has worn tired of the soft nipples he's grown accustomed to over the years. And while he has no complaints with the various soft nipple options available to him, is choosing to experiment with a decidely firmer set of nipples.

I hope that he finds the new nipples twirl in his fingers to his delight. That their increased mass does not diminish his pleasure in the final outcome. He has obviously developed a touch appropriate to softer nipples and he may find that he needs to modify some of his technique to achieve all that the harder nipples have to offer.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Bigfred* said:


> You guys seem fixed on colour choices. There's also the whole soft vs firm debate. In this case it sounds as though Mike has worn tired of the soft nipples he's grown accustomed to over the years. And while he has no complaints with the various soft nipple options available to him, is choosing to experiment with a decidely firmer set of nipples.
> 
> I hope that he finds the new nipples twirl in his fingers to his delight. That their increased mass does not diminish his pleasure in the final outcome. He has obviously developed a touch appropriate to softer nipples and he may find that he needs to modify some of his technique to achieve all that the harder nipples have to offer.


Ahhhh!! Back in 5. Cleanup in aisle 4!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Yep, this thread's taken a hard left turn. Am proud of my contribution to that.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

My wheelset is done and here they are.

This is the final spec that I decided on -

Dura Ace 7900 hubs - 24/28.
BWW Blackset Race rims (weight f - 420g, r - 412g - less holes in the front hub!)
Spokes - Sapim CX-Ray black. Radial front, x2 rear.
Nipples - brass Sapim Polyax.
Nipple washers - weight 9 grams (4f, 5r)
Weight - f - 690g, r - 838g ~ total 1528 grams.
Lube - threads, Permatex Anti-Sieze; seats, oil.

My spoke tensions were equalized using an interesting concept - using my guitar tuner  that I wrote about a couple of days ago. I don't use a tension meter for gauging acceptable spoke tension as perceived tension has never failed me. I've always done relative tensioning by ear and IMO it's more accurate (I can't speak for your ear) than any normally accepted tension meter and it has to be whole loads faster.

The one great thing about gauging relative tensions by ear is when you're in the truing phase - if you have (let's say) three spokes to loosen or tighten, a quick pluck will let you know if any of those spokes have more or less tension than those around it - if so, give them more or less of a turn than the others. Roger Musson writes about this in his  wheelbuilding e-book, the new version of which came out just a few days ago. With a normal tension meter that would take great gobs of time and probably not offer the same accuracy. All that is an assumption on my part, never having used a tension meter.

Anyway, I used the guitar tuner (they can be had for under $10) for just the front wheel. The experience from that wheel told me that my tone judgement is ok so I didn't bother getting the tuner out for the 2nd wheel.

All that's left is the initial rush of my first ride on them. It will be undiminished by 51 years of building my own wheels. It's still a thrill.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

They are beautiful, Mike!


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Great looking build Mike! Radial lacing on that DA hub looks so clean.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

Mike, any particular reason you went heads out on the front wheel?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

charlox5 said:


> Mike, any particular reason you went heads out on the front wheel?


Oh yeah.

I don't like the look of heads-in (elbows out).
I hear elbows-out places more stress on the flanges (even though Shimano don't mention it - they do allow radial).
I think any extra bracing angle of elbows-out is very minor.
I have a couple of other front wheels with radial heads-out and I can't detect an iota of flex.

Those are the reasons I guess.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I just took a spin down the street on the new wheels. I couldn't wait for tomorrows real test ride. All went well - they didn't collapse (this still surprises me) and there were no pings (as if eh?).

Here are some random thoughts and observations from building my new wheels -

Roger Musson's  Wheelpro Spoke Calculator is dead on. The spoke ends are bang on at the bottom of the nipple slots on all 4 sides of the wheels. As he says in his e-book - if the calculator didn't work right he'd fix it as he wrote it. I was using nipple washers on this build so I installed them on my dummy ERD measuring spokes to account for their thickness (0.7mm). 

The nipple washers weighed 9 grams for all 52 of them. Why did I use them? Why not? Their weight is nothing and I'll bet their contribution to rim longevity is great.

Nipple washers would make the pope swear. I had to install them with tweezers and you take a leap of faith when you release them as they're down inside the rim hole. I lost maybe three of them and had to shake them out of the rim. Grumble-grumble.

A Q-Tip with a sharpened end makes a fine nipple inserter.

I used brass nipples because they're shiny. Silver aluminum ones are dull. That's the only reason I used them. Their extra weight means I now have the perfect excuse when I suck.

Install masking tape at the valve hole when tensioning/truing to make "one wheel revolution" much easier to spot.

Never ever rush or cut a corner. Ever.

Here's the bike. My beloved titanium Kish -


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Looking good! Simple and elegant.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Love the clean lines of a steel/ti bike.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Oh yeah.
> 
> I don't like the look of heads-in (elbows out).
> I hear elbows-out places more stress on the flanges (even though Shimano don't mention it - they do allow radial).
> ...


fair enough, thanks for the insight.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

"they didn't collapse (this still surprises me)"......I know what you mean. I haven't been building my own wheels long, but with every new set I ride for the first time, I have the same thoughts after a few miles. Haven't had one collapse yet, so we must be doing something right. 

The new wheels look great on your Kish. Enjoy the ride.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cdhbrad said:


> "they didn't collapse (this still surprises me)"......I know what you mean. I haven't been building my own wheels long, but with every new set I ride for the first time, I have the same thoughts after a few miles. Haven't had one collapse yet, so we must be doing something right.
> The new wheels look great on your Kish. Enjoy the ride.


I can't help marveling at the fact that such flimsy parts have such strength when assembled. They got to do their first ride this morning - a 29-miler on my best route in perfect weather conditions - 75 degrees and NO wind. And new wheels *must* be faster as I did my best time ever on that route. That proves it, doesn't it? 

And they didn't collapse on this "long" ride either. Wonders!


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Yes, I'm sure you were MUCH faster. There is something about riding either a new bike or a new set of wheels for the first couple of times that always makes you feel faster and stronger. That was a great build, they will carry you many 1,000s of miles.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cdhbrad said:


> Yes, I'm sure you were MUCH faster. There is something about riding either a new bike or a new set of wheels for the first couple of times that always makes you feel faster and stronger. That was a great build, they will carry you many 1,000s of miles.


I think it was the brass nipples that gave the wheelset more inertia and "roll". That's what it was.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Now you know my secret.....that's why I use brass nipples on all my wheels. Inertia and the fact that I live near salt water (my Sunday ride is 40 miles on barrier islands along the Gulf of Mexico) and they hold up better than alloy.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cdhbrad said:


> Now you know my secret.....that's why I use brass nipples on all my wheels. Inertia and the fact that I live near salt water (my Sunday ride is 40 miles on barrier islands along the Gulf of Mexico) and they hold up better than alloy.


I saw a pic today on the f/b page of a Cyclepath store and the caption was "Wonder why ENVE switched from alloy to brass nipples?"

I've got aluminum nipples that are about 18 years old and they look like the day they were new. I guess it depends on the conditions in which they're used.

Here's the pic -


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