# New Tour de France Viewer Questions: n00bs, feel free to ask here



## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Hi - I thought I would try to see if this would work: a post for people to ask more basic questions about how the tour works, strategy generally, how to follow the tour, what the various points competitions are, why no one tries to jump into podium place on the final, slow day, what is in the food bag, etc.

Let's be polite and helpful. Remember, there is no such thing as a dumb question - just dumb answers.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*bonus points this year?*

My question - someone said there would be bonus points this year - can someone confirm that? [I hate bonus points and I think it leads to the problem of the tour effectively being over too soon.]


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

From the official site letour.fr:
They had disappeared since 2008. Bonus seconds will again be awarded at the finishes of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] to the 8[SUP]th[/SUP] stage. The bonuses will be of 10, 6 and 4 seconds for the first three of each of these stages.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

You see groups of riders try to break away from the peloton and once in a while it works for one of the riders. My question is why doesn't a team try and break away?


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Hi, bmach....

if that IS your real name......

the basic reason is this:
one concept is "burning matches:" there are only so many times in a month-long race when you will be able to exert a huge physical effort across hours.

Any team could, on most any day, break away and win that day. But they would be toast for the rest of the week, if not the race.

Another problem is that the overall peloton is massively efficient, while a breakaway "echelon" is less so.

A great part of cycling energy expended, on the flatter spans of road, is spent overcoming wind resistance. In a group, the front person and the front people break the wind (sorry) for the rest.

If you have ridden in a group, you have felt this.

The other concept is that if one team could do it, another could. So, it becomes a chess-match of who is willing to burn the matches on what stage, what day, given the benefits to be achieved.

This leads to another well-recognized and well-discussed concept: "what is a team going for?"

Overall, they are all going for money. But some seek to go for the overall win, while believe it or not some have no ambitions to get the overall win. Some ride to support a couple riders who will get a lot of points in another of the competitions other than a high position in the "GC" general classification. They may be shooting for sprints, or mountain points.

Curiously, some teams show up with the idea of not just favoring and supporting one guy to do well in the GC, but two. So, they have to gauge how each of the two guys is doing as te race progresses, and make decisions accordingly. So, teams risk zigging when they should have zagged.

And the tour, overall, wants a sufficient number of teams to ride to make it a big spectacle, and get advertisers/sponsors on board. So, they have to get some teams in that are just glad to be there and be competitive.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Pjay thanks for the post.


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## FujiSteve (Nov 12, 2014)

bmach said:


> You see groups of riders try to break away from the peloton and once in a while it works for one of the riders. My question is why doesn't a team try and break away?


They could try but other teams wouldn't let them. What would happen is that a couple of parasites from other teams would hang on the back. The team doing the breakaway might be swapping turns on the front but the other guys would just be sitting back, conserving their energy and enjoy being towed to the finish when they would launch an attack. By this time the team that initiated breakaway would be spent, they would have nothing left and the parasites would win.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

It's a game of chess complicated with many races, strategies and agendas within a race. It's the world's most complicated race.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

It would be nice if the TV coverage gave out more info. I would love for them to talk about the different equipment, riding styles, training, strategies and anything else.


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## Cjohns716 (Jul 20, 2012)

This has always confused me. Why are riders always listed with their home country instead of their team?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

bmach said:


> It would be nice if the TV coverage gave out more info. I would love for them to talk about the different equipment, riding styles, training, strategies and anything else.


If you watch a lot of the race, you will hear strategy discussed often. Sometimes they back up and explain the more basic stuff, sometimes they talk about the intricacies assuming many viewers know the basics. And sometimes thay talk about last nights dinner and hotel room...


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

In time trials on now, we've noticed a couple guys with what looks likes nose plugged. What's that for? Thanks.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

PBL450 said:


> If you watch a lot of the race, you will hear strategy discussed often. Sometimes they back up and explain the more basic stuff, sometimes they talk about the intricacies assuming many viewers know the basics. And sometimes thay talk about last nights dinner and hotel room...


The first few days of this year's tour, up near the English Channel, and its crosswinds to the tour route, will be crucial to the outcome of the race. The tour can be lost in the opening week if attention isn't being paid to the crosswinds and inevitable echelons forming and peloton breaking apart. We saw it 2-3 years ago when Cav nearly missed the first echelon vanishing up the road. He went on to win that day and said that he put out more watts closing the gap than he did in the sprint finish.

So any tour viewing Newbs should watch closely in the opening stages. There will probably be tons of tactics being deployed - especially if it's windy.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

MaxKatt said:


> In time trials on now, we've noticed a couple guys with what looks likes nose plugged. What's that for? Thanks.


During warmup? It's just breathing passage opening stuff soaked into cotton balls. All legal of course. I dunno what it is - let's say it's like Vick's vaporub.


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

Mike T. said:


> During warmup? It's just breathing passage opening stuff soaked into cotton balls. All legal of course. I dunno what it is - let's say it's like Vick's vaporub.


Cool. Thanks.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Cjohns716 said:


> This has always confused me. Why are riders always listed with their home country instead of their team?


I don't know. I do know that many spectators are just as interested, or more interested, in nationality (or Basque-ness) as in team affiliation.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Mike T is right about the wind.

I will try to find a good website for weather conditions.
Then, you check the forecast, including where the wind will be coming from, generally.
A well-recognized tactic is to make your jump and get the distance just before you hit the wind - like as you approach a turn, or just before coming out from the protection of a wooded area - then when the competition responds, their initial jump is in the wind, versus your that was no-wind.

On more flat stages a viewer can check out the route and weather conditions, but it takes local knowledge to know on the mountain stages how the wind typically blows down mountain valleys and passes.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

More data will be provided this year -

Big data comes to the Tour de France - BikeRadar


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Just for reference: time zone converter. All of 2015 TdF is in Central Europe Summer Time / CEST
CEST to EST Converter - Convert Central Time to Eastern Time - World Time Buddy


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> If you watch a lot of the race, you will hear strategy discussed often. Sometimes they back up and explain the more basic stuff, sometimes they talk about the intricacies assuming many viewers know the basics. And sometimes thay talk about last nights dinner and hotel room...


All of these reasons is why I love the Tour....


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

TricrossRich said:


> All of these reasons is why I love the Tour....


Here here!! Love.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> During warmup? It's just breathing passage opening stuff soaked into cotton balls. All legal of course. I dunno what it is - let's say it's like Vick's vaporub.


I've read that they use menthol.


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## MRM1 (Sep 13, 2008)

In the years I have been watching the tour ... I dunno the past 4 or 5 ... I don't recall it starting with a time trial. Not very exciting for me, but what do I know. Question is, with the tour starting with a TT, how did the start order get determined? My assumption in years past was mid race TTs were ordered in reverse by current standing in the current tour with the last person starting first and the leader starting last. But today was Kinda hard to apriciate BC I did not know if the last 10 riders were considered the forerunnes or were the forerunners just peppered in through out the day? What determined the start order today?


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## joeinchi (Sep 24, 2010)

After today's TT, there was discussion about the support car order. BMC will apparently have an advantage as they secured the yellow jersey for stage 2 and their crew will ride ahead of the others. 

Bob Roll was especially vocal on this point, though, having an easier time of gathering water bottles for your teammates (his example) at first blush doesn't seem like it would make a huge difference over 166km. Anyone care to elaborate?


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## FujiSteve (Nov 12, 2014)

Cjohns716 said:


> This has always confused me. Why are riders always listed with their home country instead of their team?


All teams were National teams from the 30's through to 1961 I think, then trade teams, then national teams for 67 and 68. Since then it's been trade teams only. So it might be a hangover from those days.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

the comments on the live broadcast bring up another piece of strategy to watch - who gets stuck with the undesirable task of reeling in the breakaway? there often ends up being two teams picking up this burden - teams that hope to get a win.

to keep the favored guy fresh, they will shelter that rider, but burn matches one by one of teammates, hoping to have some support toward the end.

it takes good gamesmanship to have another team carry most of that job of reeling in a breakaway, but to stay in good position for the end.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

FujiSteve said:


> All teams were National teams from the 30's through to 1961 I think, then trade teams, then national teams for 67 and 68. Since then it's been trade teams only. So it might be a hangover from those days.


Also often depends on which country's broadcast is doing the graphics. Some show riders and their trade teams, others riders and their home nation. I'd rather the trade team myself. 

As for TT order. They mentioned in the Giro that the teams draw numbers for the start order, with one rider from each team going out, and then they go through the order again. I'm assuming it was similar here, but it seemed they kept second and first from last years GC as the last two to go.


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## Cjohns716 (Jul 20, 2012)

rufus said:


> Also often depends on which country's broadcast is doing the graphics. Some show riders and their trade teams, others riders and their home nation. I'd rather the trade team myself.
> 
> As for TT order. They mentioned in the Giro that the teams draw numbers for the start order, with one rider from each team going out, and then they go through the order again. I'm assuming it was similar here, but it seemed they kept second and first from last years GC as the last two to go.


Interesting... thanks for the info. Was watching in the United States, and with the lack of cycling "history" for the US (in that cycling doesn't have a huge following, and really, outside of the Tour, none is shown on basic cable) I would think they would put the trade team instead of the nation of origin in order to help viewers who may not know riders well enough to know who is on which team.

Anyway, thanks!


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

What kind of flat do you get on cobblestones?
Punctures from chips of rock? Or does the tire get pinched in weird grooves, making pinch flats?

I ask because it seems like a rider might prefer a heavy, bad-feeling flat-proof tire for a cobble day - the weight can be saved elsewhere, since these bikes are always right above the limit, and there are other options for saving weight on cobble days.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

PJay said:


> What kind of flat do you get on cobblestones?
> Punctures from chips of rock? Or does the tire get pinched in weird grooves, making pinch flats?


Split casings?



> I ask because it seems like a rider might prefer a heavy, bad-feeling flat-proof tire for a cobble day - the weight can be saved elsewhere, since these bikes are always right above the limit, and there are other options for saving weight on cobble days.


But, the cobble section is has a long run in of pave, no? It is like a 3k section or something I think in a 100+k stage....


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

joeinchi said:


> After today's TT, there was discussion about the support car order. BMC will apparently have an advantage as they secured the yellow jersey for stage 2 and their crew will ride ahead of the others.
> 
> Bob Roll was especially vocal on this point, though, having an easier time of gathering water bottles for your teammates (his example) at first blush doesn't seem like it would make a huge difference over 166km. Anyone care to elaborate?


Being close to the front of the caravan is important for a lot of reasons. At the top of the list, the closer to the front you are, the quicker you can react to the needs of the riders. If a rider has a mechanical you can get there a LOT quicker if you don't have to pass 18 cars and whatever random riders happen to be moving around in the caravan. A rider that comes back for bottles can get the bottles and get them distributed quicker for the same reason. Any car that is needed goes to the front of the caravan when they're needed so it's not about the distance the riders need to go while carrying bottles, it's just a time thing. In a huge race like the tour there are 22 teams. They each have 2 cars as there is a double caravan. This way they can follow any riders that might be involved in a breakaway that gains more than 60 seconds as well as handle the rest that remain in the main group. There can be a lot of traffic w/ cars going up and back and riders coming through the caravan, but the directors have thousands and thousands of miles of experience doing this so while it looks chaotic, it's usually pretty safe. I've seen a couple of car/racer accidents up close...not good.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

MaxKatt said:


> In time trials on now, we've noticed a couple guys with what looks likes nose plugged. What's that for? Thanks.


The cotton is soaked in either eucalyptus oil or Vicks. It opens the airways to maximize oxygen intake.


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## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

PJay said:


> I ask because it seems like a rider might prefer a heavy, bad-feeling flat-proof tire for a cobble day - the weight can be saved elsewhere, since these bikes are always right above the limit, and there are other options for saving weight on cobble days.


Rotational weight is huge compared to weight on the rest of the bike. They're gonna ride on the lightest tires and wheels they can get away with. The only exception is when they chase aero benefits and sacrifice a little weight for that, but you don't see those deep section wheels on mountain stages.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

CBus660R said:


> Rotational weight is huge compared to weight on the rest of the bike.


Now I'll be repeating myself within minutes. Not really. See here. 



> They're gonna ride on the lightest tires and wheels they can get away with.


It's not that simple. There are many variables to balance, including aerodynamics and rolling resistance (speed), handling/traction wet and dry, shock absorption, impact resistance, puncture resistance, and total weight effect. They choose the tires based on the challenge and what they believe gives them the best shot for a win considering all of the variables.


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## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

ibericb said:


> Now I'll be repeating myself within minutes. Not really. See here.



IMHO, I want to see his math that comes up with the 2.7W difference. Maybe I'm used to hearing the discussion on motorized vehicles where the difference is pounds, not grams so it is much more pronounced.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

CBus660R said:


> IMHO, I want to see his math that comes up with the 2.7W difference. Maybe I'm used to hearing the discussion on motorized vehicles where the difference is pounds, not grams so it is much more pronounced.


He explained how the calc's were done, and the model (well known) he relied on. He frequents these forums, especially the Coaching forum. Maybe you can send him a PM for more detail. His profile here.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Question: I thought the yellow jersey was for the leader. In yesterday's stage there were all these other guys wearing yellow. What gives?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

natedg200202 said:


> Question: I thought the yellow jersey was for the leader. In yesterday's stage there were all these other guys wearing yellow. What gives?


They're just wannabees. Wishful thinking. Jealous.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

natedg200202 said:


> Question: I thought the yellow jersey was for the leader. In yesterday's stage there were all these other guys wearing yellow. What gives?


But seriously. One team decided on yellow for the their team kit. TinkoSaxo. How tacky.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PJay said:


> But seriously. One team decided on yellow for the their team kit. TinkoSaxo. How tacky.


LottoNL-Jumbo is more "yellow" than Tinkoff.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Not a noob, but here's a question: Yesterday, the peloton split because of crosswinds. Now, the second group was pretty large also, and I can understand them getting split off, and them losing a minute or so before they get some kind of organized chase going. And I know that unless they have a leader in that back group, some teams won't be really interested in working hard to get back on. 

But I'm watching, and the time gap's going 1:56.......1:58...........2:03 and the front group doesn't look like they're really going that hard. Surely, there must have been a large enough number of riders in that back group willing to work to pull themselves back, or had they just given up already, decided to save it for another day?


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

ibericb said:


> LottoNL-Jumbo is more "yellow" than Tinkoff.


True dat. There are two teams with a predominantly yellow kit: Tinkoff & Lotto. I thought it was common courtesy for teams with yellow in their team kit was to change it up a bit for the Tour. I remember Team ONCE (black and yellow) changed to pink and black for the Tour. 

Watching this years Tour (especially since I don't have Hi-Def) I just see a bunch of yellow jerseys in the front (and back) of the peloton.

BTW, I'm still a noob.


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