# Quick Review of Major Toms



## adam_mac84 (Sep 22, 2010)

Busted a wheel last weekend on a cement drainage ditch. Built the rear wheel back up with a major tom with my 34c grifo's. WOW, great hoops!!!

I used to have to run 36psi rear (190lbs) to keep the tire from folding over on hard corners (with acceleration). Today I was able to run about 33 without any folding, and I am going to work down to 32 tomorrow, which will be more of a training race.

hoops came in about 50-60g heavier than my escapes, but that is weight i can easily loose elsewhere (saddle, bars, something). I liked them so much that I will probably get some A23 clinchers for my pit wheels

Braking is also very good, with a wider brake track (11mm). no more worrying about my pads hitting the tubular, and more of my eagle 2's contact the rim


----------



## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

I built one up last year for a rear. Plan to build 3 more up (2 front, one rear) in the next couple of weeks but it seems that all 28h rims are on backorder everywhere.

Anyway, the rim I built up had a dreadful finish. Burrs on every hole, bunch of very large filings rattling around inside. Took me a couple of hours to shake everything out and file down all the edges. The pinning was very visible as well. 

That said, the rim tensioned and trued up better and quicker than just about any wheel I've built. That's the most important thing. Pretty poor finish for a $80 rim, but the performance is good. Brake track is great, gluing surface is great.Weight exactly as claimed by manufacturers.

I put down the bad finish to a QC error and assume it was a once off. Still well worth it for the ease of building.


----------



## desertdude70 (Mar 5, 2010)

I've built up Escapes and Tom's both; I prefer the Toms. I'll take the slight weight penalty for added traction, easier brake set-up, and added durability. I had no issues with quality or build up, they are good no frills rims and yield good results. The Toms did seem to take higher spoke tension better than the Escapes. The escapes in 32h didn't seem to like anything over 120 kgflbs.


----------



## Corndog (Jan 18, 2006)

If you like the Tom's you'll like a HED Belgium tubular rim even better. Give them a shot next time around. They are a wider rim the like Tom, but seem to be more consistent in the manufacturing process and are stiffer as well.


----------



## jmhtx (Aug 31, 2011)

I just got a wheelset with Major Tom Rims. The extra width is very nice for mounting 'cross tubulars. I did not notice any cosmetic or funcational issues with my rims.


----------



## tsunayoshi (Dec 3, 2009)

I have a set of Major Toms and a set of A23s for backups/muddy courses. The A23 has been great, I'm running about 33lbs and have only bottomed out once in the 4 races I ran them this year so far. I had to run close to 40psi on my Aksiums last year to avoid bottoming out on every little bump.

I also love the Toms, but they have a very not mud friendly tire on them so can only use them on fairly dry courses.


----------



## roseyscot (Jan 30, 2005)

i've got two sets of major toms (ssc tread and rhino tread) and a23's for training. it's great to have the same wide rim for all three and i've been very happy with the builds and strength. no proprietary pieces or hidden nipples. 

i'm slowly converting most all of my wheelsets to velocity rims, particularly the a23's for clinchers.


----------



## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

maybe I need to look at rider rims like this I've had some nasty folding problems at low PSI on my Neuvation tubular rims, which admittedly aren't really designed for cross.


----------



## jhbeeton (Dec 8, 2004)

*admittedly aren't designed for cross?*

I rolled a 34mm Vittoria XM tubular off a new set of neuvation tubies last week and I have been in discussion with John @ Neuvation .. he's adamant that there's nothing not right with the tubular rim spec and compatibility with cross tires. I cannot see how you can get a complete tire bed to match the profile of that rim.

I'm looking at either the Major Tom or HED C2 tubular

When you mentioned admittedly, did you mean you or neuvation?




steve_e_f said:


> maybe I need to look at rider rims like this I've had some nasty folding problems at low PSI on my Neuvation tubular rims, which admittedly aren't really designed for cross.


----------



## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

jhbeeton said:


> I rolled a 34mm Vittoria XM tubular off a new set of neuvation tubies last week and I have been in discussion with John @ Neuvation .. he's adamant that there's nothing not right with the tubular rim spec and compatibility with cross tires. I cannot see how you can get a complete tire bed to match the profile of that rim.
> 
> I'm looking at either the Major Tom or HED C2 tubular
> 
> When you mentioned admittedly, did you mean you or neuvation?


I mean the Neuvations. Neuvation never advertised the wheel as a CX wheel, and the low spoke count isn't the most durable wheel configuration ever, even if I've had good results at 175lbs.

Interestingly enough I rolled my rear Neuvation last weekend after a season and a half of hard use. It didn't pull completely off the rim, but was clearly pulled away almost entirely at times before returning to its position because of air pressure.

After complete removal it was very interesting to see that the tire glue surface seemed to make very little contact with the center channel of the rim when it was deflated. Meaning that only glue on the high edges of the rim seemed to be holding the tire on when I inspected it.

This could be because the tire never made good contact with the channel to begin with, or maybe it means that as the glue dried out and weakened it didn't hold the tire to the center channel as well because the tire in its natural state doesn't have that V shape and "wanted" to deform back to its original flat profile. Does that make any sense? I'm confusing myself.

This makes me wonder if the Belgian tape method would be good because it would fill that center channel up and allow the tire to make full contact with the rim/tape.

It seems that maybe a good CX rim design would have a shallower center channel to allow for a low PSI tire to connect better. This is conjecture, but it seems to make sense.


----------



## jhbeeton (Dec 8, 2004)

*Rim profile*

A couple of comments about your observations

Pumps up a tubular tire on a rim and what shape is it? Measure the inner diameter and compare that to the outer diameter of the centerline of the rim bed. 

The problem is that tires can stretch to accommodate a temporary condition such as getting onto the rim but the don't during to fill a void. I believe the Belgian tape method reduces the voids & gaps inevitably a result of differences in the rim and tire profile. However., the glue & tape method is still only as effective as the compatibility of the tire & rim. 

Neuvations website describes the tubulars as " great for road & cross "

I'm confident I can get the issue addressed with John at Neuvation ... Perhaps I'll glue up some pave tires


----------



## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

Just to be clear, I don't think the Neuvations are a bad rim. I've had great results on them, but in the future I'll look for rims like Major Toms or others that seem to be designed with CX as a specific application. I think that extra rim width will be incrementally better and in those last moments before traction is lost, every increment helps.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*steve*

the belgian tape helps fill in that middle zone and improves overall contact area


----------



## euro-trash (May 1, 2004)

jhbeeton said:


> I'm confident I can get the issue addressed with John at Neuvation ... Perhaps I'll glue up some pave tires


What is there to resolve? You didn't glue the tire properly and rolled it. Not his fault, or the rims at all. Many of us have used those with no problems.


----------



## jhbeeton (Dec 8, 2004)

*Rebuttal*

Yeah, I don't think so on the gluing front
This is a case of the tire being significantly different from the profile of the rim

Perhaps you could educate me on how to put a round peg in a square hole

Jh


----------



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

jhbeeton said:


> Yeah, I don't think so on the gluing front
> This is a case of the tire being significantly different from the profile of the rim
> 
> Perhaps you could educate me on how to put a round peg in a square hole
> ...


You think you're the first person to glue a cross tubular to a skinny road rim? People have been doing it for decades and it works, you just have to know how to glue them properly. Rather than listen to peoples advice about how to do it you stubbornly declare it's the rims fault.


----------



## 196nautique (Sep 23, 2005)

There are some really interesting points in this article. Going to change my gluing practice a little bit after reading this.

Interview: Chip Howat, Tubular Tire Expert - BikeRadar


----------



## euro-trash (May 1, 2004)

jhbeeton said:


> Yeah, I don't think so on the gluing front
> This is a case of the tire being significantly different from the profile of the rim
> 
> Perhaps you could educate me on how to put a round peg in a square hole
> ...


That's a poor analogy. If you rolled a tire, it's your glue job, not the rim. Many of us have glued dozens of tires on rims of that size and shape (I've glued multiple tires on that particular rim (T-25) with no problems). 
If you were sincere in your request, and not engaging in internet bravado, here is one of numerous open-access education materials you may find helpful for next time: 
Embrocation Cycling Journal: How To: Gluing CX Tubulars - By Mike Zanconato


----------



## Jetmugg (Sep 22, 2010)

Back to the Major Toms - do you have any issues with brake set-up when switching between the Major Toms as a race wheel, and a different "training" wheel, assuming that you use something different?


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

so in the last couple days I've learned that embrocation "sucks" and you can't use cross tubulars on road rims lol


----------



## Marcos_E (Dec 16, 2007)

I love the Toms. I got them within a couple days of being available. The rim profile does wonders across a variety of conditions. Recently, I was in a desperately muddy race and found that the rims did not clog much at all. 

The wider profile is great for keeping the braking consistent throughout. I've found little to no shudder with them after fiddling with my shorty ultimates a bit.

Also, they are quite lightweight for their price. I recently did a build with Velocity hubs, straight gauge spokes, and the Toms themselves. 28f/r came out to 1600g even.


----------



## jhbeeton (Dec 8, 2004)

*No bravado here ...*

I've wrenched for myself and in support of others for over 20 yrs. I learn something new almost everytime the apron goes on. During that time I have raced and learned the hard way from not knowing everything that I needed to.

So in terms of the art of tubulars, I appreciate the links ( especially the bike radar link) as it emphasized the bond between the tubular and the rim at the edges rather than down the middle of the rim bed. There is an opportunity with cloth and roubaix tape to build up the rim profile to better match the diameter of the tire.

I will concede that I wasn't aware of the practice of having to adapt the rim to tire. Though the degree of how much is required does depend on the selection of the tire for the specific rim or vice versa.

I will be checking out the Major Tom on subsequent builds and checking back here to hear about the experiences to date.

Thanks


----------



## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

steve_e_f said:


> This makes me wonder if the Belgian tape method would be good because it would fill that center channel up and allow the tire to make full contact with the rim/tape.
> 
> It seems that maybe a good CX rim design would have a shallower center channel to allow for a low PSI tire to connect better. This is conjecture, but it seems to make sense.





atpjunkie said:


> the belgian tape helps fill in that middle zone and improves overall contact area


I know that a lot of people advise pumping the tire to pressure after mounting it to the rim but it's a bad idea left over from high pressure road tire applications.

After mounting the tire, pump it up enough to center the tire. Then deflate it entirely. Use a dowel (broom handle) with an outside diameter smaller than the rim inside diameter and roll the tire to the rim. If you don't have something like that handy, use your thumbs. Let cure for 24 hours before inflating.

Let's all remember that the rim is rigid and the tire will conform to the rim if given a chance for the adhesive to work. When you inflate immediately after mounting, there is a good chance you will pull the center of the tire away from the rim channel.


----------



## Corndog (Jan 18, 2006)

Gripped said:


> When you inflate immediately after mounting, there is a good chance you will pull the center of the tire away from the rim channel.


This is the #1 reason I see cx tubulars roll. People pump them up too high after mounting and the center section pulls up, leaving only the very edge of the tire/rim glue bond to hold everything together. 

I always deflate and use a dowel to push down the center section, then inflate to about 8psi and let sit overnight.


----------



## jhbeeton (Dec 8, 2004)

*Trying to understand logic*



Corndog said:


> This is the #1 reason I see cx tubulars roll. People pump them up too high after mounting and the center section pulls up, leaving only the very edge of the tire/rim glue bond to hold everything together.
> 
> I always deflate and use a dowel to push down the center section, then inflate to about 8psi and let sit overnight.


What happens then at 24-48 hours after you pump the tires up to pressure 30-40 psi?

How are you to know whether the center line of the tire bed has maintained sufficient contact? Isn't the tire is trying to return to it's circular cross section as opposed to compressing into the profile of the rim?

I'm thinking a combination of the belgian tape and perhaps some fiber tape to make the profile better matched the way it is on major tom & Hed C2 will do the trick


----------



## Corndog (Jan 18, 2006)

After 12-24hrs, the glue has cured enough so that it won't pull up when inflated. Also, a cx tire is never inflated above ~30psi. Once the glue has set, this pressure is not enough to pull up the center of the tread. 

The problem is when people jack the pressure up after gluing the tire on, ala road tubulars. That will pull up the center of the tread every time. The tape is a crutch for poor gluing technique or when you are in a real hurry (ATMO). You can just as easily build up the center of a rim with layers of glue. 

I glue 30-40 cx tubulars a year and most of the time, if a tire needs to be removed the base tape stays on the rim. That's with noting but Mastik. I've used jantex/belg tape here and there, but much prefer straight glue. That tape makes a HUGE mess/hassle when you remove a tire. If the tape stays on the rim and doesn't pull off with the tire.... you're in for a fun time. 

I've found that the HED and Major Toms are very easy to get a good glue bond on... much easier than a narrower rim like an escape. One wider rim that is a problem is the Mavic reflex, because of it's extremely deep center channel.


----------



## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

Jetmugg said:


> Back to the Major Toms - do you have any issues with brake set-up when switching between the Major Toms as a race wheel, and a different "training" wheel, assuming that you use something different?


It can be dealt with, especially if you have barrel adjusters. My back-up bike has bar-top levers and I use the barrel adjusters on the bar-top levers to adjust the brakes for different rim widths. My race bike came with a barrel adjuster on the front cable hanger, but not the rear. So I went to shop and they found me a little Jabwire barrel adjuster that would git right into the rear cable hanger. So now I have barrel adjusters front and rear.


----------



## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

jhbeeton said:


> What happens then at 24-48 hours after you pump the tires up to pressure 30-40 psi?
> 
> How are you to know whether the center line of the tire bed has maintained sufficient contact? Isn't the tire is trying to return to it's circular cross section as opposed to compressing into the profile of the rim?
> 
> I'm thinking a combination of the belgian tape and perhaps some fiber tape to make the profile better matched the way it is on major tom & Hed C2 will do the trick


Well, it's called bonding. The bond cures for some time after putting the two parts together. In other words, it gets stronger. It's called chemistry. 

http://cnl.salk.edu/~jorge/xfer/TubularTiresAdhesivesandPracticePart5.pdf

I can tell you it works pretty well with Challenge Griffos and Mavic Reflex.


----------



## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

carlosflanders said:


> I built one up last year for a rear. Plan to build 3 more up (2 front, one rear) in the next couple of weeks but it seems that all 28h rims are on backorder everywhere.
> 
> Anyway, the rim I built up had a dreadful finish. Burrs on every hole, bunch of very large filings rattling around inside. Took me a couple of hours to shake everything out and file down all the edges. The pinning was very visible as well.
> 
> ...


I've built up ~30 Major Toms and every one had the QC issues you saw. I greatly prefer the HED C2 Belgium rims myself.

Both built up well, but I would give the straight and true nod to the HED rims as well.


----------



## m_s (Nov 20, 2007)

wrong thread sorry


----------

