# Can I get a 11-32 cogset on DA 7800 drivetrain?



## dasho (Apr 8, 2002)

I’m not the rider I used to be and for a couple of upcoming mountain rides would like to put a SRAM 11-32 cassette on either my 9 or 10 speed Dura Ace bikes (50-34). I don’t want to spend the money for a new groupset.

Some questions:
1.can I use a Shimano or other rear der (mountain) to temporarily replace the existing one?
2. will a SRAM Apex rear der work with Shimano shifters? 
3. will a Shimano 50-34 crank and shifters work with the SRAM rear der

Any other advice would be appreciated – thanks in advance!


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

dasho said:


> I’m not the rider I used to be and for a couple of upcoming mountain rides would like to put a SRAM 11-32 cassette on either my 9 or 10 speed Dura Ace bikes (50-34). I don’t want to spend the money for a new groupset.
> 
> Some questions:
> 1.can I use a Shimano or other rear der (mountain) to temporarily replace the existing one?
> ...


1-Yes; shimano mtb rd
2-No
3-No


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

What I've heard - and you should verify this is...

Shimano 9 or 10 speed road shifters will work with 9 speed Shimano MTB RD, but neither will work with 10 speed Shimano MTB RD or any other brand of MTB RD.

I don't have any experience with the 10 speed shifters, but my and my wife's 9 speed road shifters (I have Ultegra, she has Tiagra) both work perfectly with Shimano 8 or 9 (I'm not sure the model number, it's several years old) speed Deore XT rear derailleur we've used both 11-32 and 11-34 9 speed cassettes, both Shimano and Sram.

I also know from personal experience that Shimano 8 speed Sora road shifters will work perfectly with that same derailleur and an 8 speed MTB cassette.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dasho said:


> I’m not the rider I used to be and for a couple of upcoming mountain rides would like to put a SRAM 11-32 cassette on either my 9 or 10 speed Dura Ace bikes (50-34). I don’t want to spend the money for a new groupset.
> 
> Some questions:
> 1.can I use a Shimano or other rear der (mountain) to temporarily replace the existing one?
> ...


aren't 2 & 3 basically the same question? 
you need to use a shimano 9 speed mountain derailleur w/ your shimano 10 speed road shifters. i've done it numerous times, works perfectly. as stated above, the dyna-sys mtb 10 speed rear derailleur won't work w/ the road shifters.


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## dasho (Apr 8, 2002)

*Question*



cxwrench said:


> aren't 2 & 3 basically the same question?
> you need to use a shimano 9 speed mountain derailleur w/ your shimano 10 speed road shifters. i've done it numerous times, works perfectly. as stated above, the dyna-sys mtb 10 speed rear derailleur won't work w/ the road shifters.


Oh yes, 2 and 3 are the same. I guess I'm a bit confused as to how 10 speed DA shifters work with a 9 speed derailleur and a 11-32 10 speed cassette.


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## dasho (Apr 8, 2002)

*eed to answer question*

I read the previous poster's reply - I didn't realize there were 11-32 9 speed cassettes - I thought there were only 11-32 10 speed cassettes.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

the derailleur has no 'indexing' as such. all of that happens at the shifter. BUT...the geometry of the '9spd' mountain derailleurs works properly w/ the 10spd road shifters. the 10spd mountain derailleurs only work w/ the 10spd mountain shifters. the ration of cable pull to derailleur movement is different. 

if you have a 10spd shifter, you obviously need a 10spd cassette. the 10spd road shifters work perfectly w/ the older, '9spd' mtn ders.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I'm riding across the US & just changed the gearing on my Dura Ace 10 spd. I put an 11X34 mt bike cluster on the rear, a new chain, and a mt bike rear derailleur. Works perfectly. I'll put my Dura Ace rear der & 12X25 on when I get back home.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Sems you got the answers to your questions but isn't 50/34 and 11/32 a bit drastic?
I wonder where you will need an almost 1:1 ratio.
Not having a go at you, just interested.


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## dndrich (Feb 21, 2012)

I currently have ultegra 10 speed shifters in front, ultegra front and rear derailleurs, compact 50-34 in front, and the SRAM 11-32 rear. Where I ride it is very hilly. How can this work? I have the standard shimano medium cage rear which is supposed to max at 11-28. But if you turn the B screw around the other way it gets the idler wheel out of the way enough to clear the 11-32 just fine. It apparently works on like 90% of bikes depending on the hangar geometry. Works fine on my bike. Obviously you need a long enough chain to do it. Here is a link to my blog about how this works.

SRAM 11-32


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## MMinSC (Nov 19, 2011)

It'll work fine. I'm running a XTR mid-cage (9spd) with 7800 shifters. Works perfectly. I've run XT long cage derailleurs on cx bikes in the past with no issues.

The NEW "Dyna-Sys" 10spd rear derailleurs do NOT work with 10 speed road shifters. We tried. The cable pull/geometry is different.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dndrich said:


> I currently have ultegra 10 speed shifters in front, ultegra front and rear derailleurs, compact 50-34 in front, and the SRAM 11-32 rear. Where I ride it is very hilly. How can this work? I have the standard shimano medium cage rear which is supposed to max at 11-28. But if you turn the B screw around the other way it gets the idler wheel out of the way enough to clear the 11-32 just fine. It apparently works on like 90% of bikes depending on the hangar geometry. Works fine on my bike. Obviously you need a long enough chain to do it. Here is a link to my blog about how this works.
> 
> SRAM 11-32


you can _make it work_, but by reversing the b-tension screw and forcing the derailleur away from the cogs you're also moving it back. this reduces the number of teeth the chain engages on the cogs. 
this is the issue w/ 'making' a road derailleur work with mountain cassettes. the ONLY thing a long or med cage road derailleur does differently is wrap more chain. it does NOT allow ideal functionality w/ a really big cassette. med and long cage road derailleurs are designed to work w/ a 28 tooth large cog AND A LARGE DIFFERENCE IN THE FRONT CHAINRINGS. if you want to use a 32,34, or 36 tooth large cog and have it work properly, get a mtb derailleur. this derailleur geometry allows the chain to engage the proper number of teeth on the cogs so it won't slip under hard efforts.
again...to clarify...the longer cage is NOT there to allow big cogs, it's there to wrap chain when you use triples or have a large difference in the large/small rings on the crank. the length of the cage doesn't change where the upper pulley sits. this location is different w/ the mountain derailleurs, and is designed to work w/ mountain cassettes.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

FTR said:


> Sems you got the answers to your questions but isn't 50/34 and 11/32 a bit drastic?
> I wonder where you will need an almost 1:1 ratio.
> Not having a go at you, just interested.


It depends on the riding conditions. We do a cycling trip to Sonoma County in April each year and do 4 rides of 60-100+ miles in 5 days with 5k-10k of climbing each day. Some of the pitches get up to 22%+. I have done the trip with a triple and 12/27 but switched to a compact. I debated doing it with the 12/27 , but to do it day after day risks injury for us nearing 50 years old. At 22% and on my 30/27 it was difficult to keep the front wheel on the ground.

To the OP, other options for the rear derailleur are a Dura-Ace RD-7803 as they have a long cage or an Ultegra GS which is listed as a medium cage. The Ultegra works most of the time depending on the length of the derailleur hanger.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> It depends on the riding conditions. We do a cycling trip to Sonoma County in April each year and do 4 rides of 60-100+ miles in 5 days with 5k-10k of climbing each day. Some of the pitches get up to 22%+. I have done the trip with a triple and 12/27 but switched to a compact. I debated doing it with the 12/27 , but to do it day after day risks injury for us nearing 50 years old. At 22% and on my 30/27 it was difficult to keep the front wheel on the ground.


Sorry, but I dont understand what you are saying here.
30/27 gives me a Gear inch calculation of 29.18.
34/32 gives me a Gear inch calculation of 26.26.

I understand the part about it being difficult to keep the front wheel on the ground in 30/27 but with a 34 on the front you need to run a maximum rear cog of 29 to improve that situation (30.79 gear inches). That says to me that the remaining bigger rear gears are pretty much useless?

With a standard 53/39 double a 32t rear cog will give you a slightly higher gear at 32 gear inches.


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## dasho (Apr 8, 2002)

*Interesting....*

This is getting interesting - I don't know much about gear teeth measurements etc. I read that 
the 50/34 x 11/32 (Sram Apex) was developed for Contador in the TDF to conserve energy in the mountain stages so I figured it must have some merit.

I only know climbing is more difficult as I near 60 and anything I can do to make it easier on my body is worth it. If I'm not going to get much of an advantage switching from a 34-27 ratio to a 34-32 then maybe I need to get a triple.


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## dasho (Apr 8, 2002)

*I'm riding....*

I wonder where you will need an almost 1:1 ratio.
Not having a go at you, just interested.[/QUOTE]

in the 3mountainmadness ride in NC. I used to do it with a 53-39 but I'm at the "youth of old age" as they say and realize I will get more enjoyment out of the ride by suffering less


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## dasho (Apr 8, 2002)

*Wow!!*



Mr. Versatile said:


> I'm riding across the US & just changed the gearing on my Dura Ace 10 spd. I put an 11X34 mt bike cluster on the rear, a new chain, and a mt bike rear derailleur. Works perfectly. I'll put my Dura Ace rear der & 12X25 on when I get back home.


Fantastic! I hope you have a safe trip - I'm sure it will be one of the highlights of your life.

Will you keep us updated and post pictures as you progress on the trip?


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

FTR said:


> Sorry, but I dont understand what you are saying here.
> 30/27 gives me a Gear inch calculation of 29.18.
> 34/32 gives me a Gear inch calculation of 26.26.
> 
> ...


What I am saying is that when hills get steep enough to pull the front wheel off the ground one has a use for near 1:1 ratio. 

32 gear inches is 10% higher than 29. When you are at the limit, 10% can mean the difference between stalling and riding.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> What I am saying is that when hills get steep enough to pull the front wheel off the ground one has a use for near 1:1 ratio.
> 
> 32 gear inches is 10% higher than 29. When you are at the limit, 10% can mean the difference between stalling and riding.


OK. You must pull the front wheel up for different reasons to me.
I find when I am in too small a gear I do this as I can sit back further from my bars.
When I use a slightly bigger gear I len forward and keep the front wheel down more easily.

I would think if I am in that small a gear I would definitely be wheelying my bike.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

dasho said:


> This is getting interesting - I don't know much about gear teeth measurements etc. I read that
> the 50/34 x 11/32 (Sram Apex) was developed for Contador in the TDF to conserve energy in the mountain stages so I figured it must have some merit.
> 
> I only know climbing is more difficult as I near 60 and anything I can do to make it easier on my body is worth it. If I'm not going to get much of an advantage switching from a 34-27 ratio to a 34-32 then maybe I need to get a triple.


Going from a 27 to 32 is significant. You are talking about an 18% mechanical advantage.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

FTR said:


> OK. You must pull the front wheel up for different reasons to me.
> I find when I am in too small a gear I do this as I can sit back further from my bars.
> When I use a slightly bigger gear I len forward and keep the front wheel down more easily.
> 
> I would think if I am in that small a gear I would definitely be wheelying my bike.


Stay in a big gear going up Skaggs Creek to Tin Barn (outside of Cloverdale, CA. (mile 31--> 32 of Bike Route Toaster click on the summary tab for the terrain) and you will not have to worry about wheelying as you would likely be walking.  I only find wheelying in a low gear an issue when I lose focus and slide back or mash the pedals vs having a smooth stroke.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Stay in a big gear going up Skaggs Creek to Tin Barn (outside of Cloverdale, CA. (mile 31--> 32 of Bike Route Toaster click on the summary tab for the terrain) and you will not have to worry about wheelying as you would likely be walking.  I only find wheelying in a low gear an issue when I lose focus and slide back or mash the pedals vs having a smooth stroke.


Main time I have this problem is on my MTB when I was needing to ride in my 22/34.
Not had it on my road bike, but know what you mean by wanting to get off and walk.
I have done a ride with an extended 20+% gradient running a 53/39 and 11-25 cassette.
Not fun and wondered how I was going to explain to my wife that she needed to come and pick me up. :cryin:

Please be clear here that I am not saying that climbing gears are not needed but I cannot get my head around a compact plus MTB cassette.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

FTR said:


> Sems you got the answers to your questions but isn't 50/34 and 11/32 a bit drastic?
> I wonder where you will need an almost 1:1 ratio.
> Not having a go at you, just interested.


My wife runs a 11-34 with a 50-39-30 triple so her lowest gear is even lower than 1:1 (30X34). She uses the low gears every ride almost and has enjoyed riding much more since I put the MTB rear end on for her.



FTR said:


> ...Please be clear here that I am not saying that climbing gears are not needed but I cannot get my head around a compact plus MTB cassette.


If you understand the need for climbing gears, then the reasons for those low gears are the same.... Hills! Specifically, the factors are the rider's strength and riding style and of course the hills' steepness and length. Same reasons everyone chooses the low gears they have.


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## dndrich (Feb 21, 2012)

Camilo said:


> My wife runs a 11-34 with a 50-39-30 triple so her lowest gear is even lower than 1:1 (30X34). She uses the low gears every ride almost and has enjoyed riding much more since I put the MTB rear end on for her.
> 
> 
> 
> If you understand the need for climbing gears, then the reasons for those low gears are the same.... Hills! Specifically, the factors are the rider's strength and riding style and of course the hills' steepness and length. Same reasons everyone chooses the low gears they have.


Totally agree. I am 52 years old, in good shape, and normal weight. Where I live we have rides with sustained 15% or more. Very hilly here in Sonoma County. That is why many pro teams train here. I love my 50-34, 11-32 combo.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

No need to get antsy guys. 
If you need a near 1:1 ratio go for your lives.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

You'll also need a new chain because of the larger cogs...


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

in case one is thinking MTB RD... from Shimano... can't use anything with Dyna-Sys

All the Dyna-sys are meant to be used together


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tednugent said:


> in case one is thinking MTB RD... from Shimano... can't use anything with Dyna-Sys
> 
> All the Dyna-sys are meant to be used together


pretty sure this has been mentioned at least a few times in this thread alone, but good advice none-the-less


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

FTR said:


> No need to get antsy guys.
> If you need a near 1:1 ratio go for your lives.


Sorry, didn't mean to be "antsy", and truely wasn't being argumentative or defensive...

But you did say that while your understood "climbing gears" you couldn't "get your mind around" a 1:1 ratio. That seemed contradictory adn just didn't make any sense to me, so I was just trying to be helpful. 

Now I'm wondering if there is there a magic ratio beyond which a road bike just shouldn't venture? Or is it that you just had never seen a need for it and therefore it just seemed foreign? 

If so, I live in almost the opposite world where 30 and 34 small chain ring X25/26/28, and yes, even 32 and 34 large cassette sprocket are very common and from my perspective, riding with a conventional crank is almost unheard of any more. Many, if not most good quality road bikes were sold around here with Ultegra, Campy or Dura Ace triples up until about 5 or 6 years ago when the Compacts took over. 

But I live in steep and long hills and also pretty much ride with strong middle aged recreational riders, not super fit or young racers. My buddy in Florida, a middle aged, recreational rider very similar in ability to me rides with a conventional double (52-39) and I think a 23 or 25 cassette. I rode his bike when I was visiting him and it worked very well, even for weak old me (I barely get by with a 34X28 here). He probably doesn't even think that people use the low gears we have here (I plan to take him on a real mtn. pass ride next summer if I can!).

It's all good: that's why all these parts are replaceable.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

hope you still read the forums. I am getting the run around at my bike shop about solving my dura ace cassette/RD problem.

I am considering riding across country with my dura ace 7800 bike but like you need a larger gear in the back (27 won't cut it in the mountains). 

I saw your post about installing a MTB rear derailleur with a 11/x34 cassette. Any chance you could tell me the exact model number of the MTB derailleur? Also did you happen to have the compact front end? And if so did the 7800 shifter work with the MTB derailleur or did you have to change this? Finally did index shifting work?

Thanks, and hopefully you had a great trip


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

of course index shifting works...the shifters are indexed, and there is no friction mode. ANY shimano 9 speed mtb derailleur w/ long cage will work. DO NOT get a new 10spd dyna-sys derailleur, they ONLY work w/ the 10spd mtb shifters. this has been covered at least a half dozen times in this thread alone. your shifters will work perfectly w/ any of the 'older' derailleurs. i'd try to get a non-shadow type, so there is a barrel adjuster built into the derailleur AND you won't have to trim the derailleur cable housing...you can just swap them back and forth.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

Thanks for the response. If you don't mind a couple of questions.

1. Will the Shimano LX M581 RD work? Getting hard to find "non shadow derailleurs.
2. Any recommended vendors for the cassette? IRD for example seems to have wide gear ranges.
3. Do I switch out my dura ace chain (have to get a new one anyways). And if so any recommendations?

I do appreciate the advice - confusing for novice. And of course my bike shop's only recommendation was to buy a new bike Oops - should say my former bike store!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

kt22mike said:


> Thanks for the response. If you don't mind a couple of questions.
> 
> 1. Will the Shimano LX M581 RD work? Getting hard to find "non shadow derailleurs.
> 2. Any recommended vendors for the cassette? IRD for example seems to have wide gear ranges.
> ...


that derailleur in the SGS model (long cage) would be great. i'm not a big fan of IRD cassettes, i much prefer SRAM or Shimano. they have 11-32/34/36 options that work very well. you'll have to get a longer chain, any of the 10spd models from SRAM or Shimano (they make a mtb specific chain, HG-X) or KMC will work great. i'd recommend something in the XT or PC 1051-1071 range. no need to get top of the line, really. good luck w/ the conversion!
and finding a new shop:thumbsup:


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

thanks 

looks like you have provided me a solution to work with my dura ace 7800 setup:

Shimano Derailleur Rear LX M581-SGS (21031)
sram pg 1050 12-34 cassette
mtb specific chain, HG-X or KMC XT 

Now to find a shop that I can trust to install without telling me it won't work!!!!

Do appreciate the help of you and the forum!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

kt22mike said:


> thanks
> 
> looks like you have provided me a solution to work with my dura ace 7800 setup:
> 
> ...


it shouldn't be too hard to find someone that knows this works...i hope! it's been talked about here forever, and even on velonews. if you can't find a good shop, just order the parts and do it yourself. we'll help you out:thumbsup:


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

I think I can handle changing the cassette (trying to do this on my wife's bike this week and ordered the tools from Amazon today). 

Pretty sure I can install the derailleur- and worst case will have to go to shop for adjustments.

It's figuring out chain length that is probably my biggest fear....


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

kt22mike said:


> thanks
> 
> looks like you have provided me a solution to work with my dura ace 7800 setup:
> 
> ...


Going from a DA grade RD to a LX... is a big downgrade in component quality.... but... going with a SLX or XT does cost more money. Plus, there is nothing wrong with the shadow RD's. Works fine with my XT RD (M772 medium cage) with 105-5600 shifters.

KMC doesn't (AFAIK) make a MTB specific chain. It's the same chain they use for road bikes and they put plenty of links to cover both types. Pick a X10 series to your pricepoint & color.

I have a X9SL-TI on the mountain bike & X10SL-CP on the road bike


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tednugent said:


> Going from a DA grade RD to a LX... is a big downgrade in component quality.... but... going with a SLX or XT does cost more money. Plus, *there is nothing wrong with the shadow RD's.* Works fine with my XT RD (M772 medium cage) with 105-5600 shifters.
> 
> KMC doesn't (AFAIK) make a MTB specific chain. It's the same chain they use for road bikes and they put plenty of links to cover both types. Pick a X10 series to your pricepoint & color.
> 
> I have a X9SL-TI on the mountain bike & X10SL-CP on the road bike


no, nothing wrong w/ them, but non-shadow derailleurs are easier for swaps like this for the specific reason i noted in a previous post...if you use a shadow derailleur and then want to go back, it's new cable/housing every time due the difference in the housing length at the rear. minor issue, but if you're doing it a couple times a year...




kt22mike said:


> I think I can handle changing the cassette (trying to do this on my wife's bike this week and ordered the tools from Amazon today).
> 
> Pretty sure I can install the derailleur- and worst case will have to go to shop for adjustments.
> 
> It's figuring out chain length that is probably my biggest fear....


if you get the SGS (long cage) deraileur, size the chain using the 'small-small' method and you'll be fine. small cog, small ring...size the chain just short enough that the lower run doesn't rub on the cage/pulleys of the rear derailleur. this method will give you the longest chain possible, which is usually the smoothest running set up as well. if you don't understand that, i'll post a couple of pics so you can see what i mean.


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## DHallerman (Mar 28, 2008)

FTR said:


> Sems you got the answers to your questions but isn't 50/34 and 11/32 a bit drastic?
> I wonder where you will need an almost 1:1 ratio.
> Not having a go at you, just interested.


I bet you're either young, FTR, or have always been a very strong cyclist.

In fact, the blend of a compact chainrings and an 11x32 cassette work very well for the sort of not-so-fast, not-so-slow club riders I typically ride with in these Hudson Valley hills.

And that low gear is especially useful if you prefer to spin up hills, rather than grind your knees.

Just to note.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> no, nothing wrong w/ them, but non-shadow derailleurs are easier for swaps like this for the specific reason i noted in a previous post...if you use a shadow derailleur and then want to go back, it's new cable/housing every time due the difference in the housing length at the rear. minor issue, but if you're doing it a couple times a year...


When I switched to the shadow RD... nothing was done to the housing & cable. So, if I go back to the 105 RD and the 12-25 cassette, it's just a swap (with the old chain) and some fine tuning of the RD.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

seems to be a debate here on rear derailleurs - so what's the answer. ....

Old Shimano Mountain RD or a new Shadow RD? 

And if Shadow, do you have to screw around with the rear cable housing? That seems to be in debate here as well. If shadow which model number?

Also with a 12/32 cassette some people say mid cage and other long cage. Help!!

Also passed the recommended solution (versus buying a new bike) by my "trusted" bike shop (whom I am dumping after the Forum-provided solution) and they said I would not be happy with the shifting performance after having used dura ace. Any opinions on this? 

Or is the bike shop blowing more smoke up my butt?


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

For MTB RD's... for the sake of ease of clicking on the internet... SLX med cage vs. long cage
Medium Cage
Long Cage

Max Sprocket is the same, 34T
Min Sprocket is the same, 11T
Front Difference is the same, 22T Max

The difference lies in total capacity, 35T (med) vs 45T (long)

Where, the Total (Chain Wrap) Capacity = (diffference between largest and smallest cassette cog) + (difference between largest and smallest chain ring)

So...
(32-11) + (50-34) = 37

So... yes, 37T is slightly larger than the med cage total, but still manageable.
Going with the long cage is a safe bet, but shifting will be slower

.... that's the consequence of adapting Shimano to SRAM Apex's claim to fame, as the Apex medium cage Total Capacity is 37, as it is designed to be used with a compact crank from the start.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

*medium versus long cage*

thanks.

what would your opinion be if I got a 32-12 with compact. Total 46 (one more than max) would medium cage be ok in this regard. 

Again I am looking to ride across US so I do not want to encounter any problems.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

I have a 11-32 cassette with a compact crank with XT M772 medium cage shadow RD and works fine for me.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tednugent said:


> For MTB RD's... for the sake of ease of clicking on the internet... SLX med cage vs. long cage
> Medium Cage
> Long Cage
> 
> ...


where are you coming up w/ this stuff? 

there is NO difference in shift speed between a med cage derailleur and a long cage. NONE. the shift takes place at the upper pulley, the length of the cage has zero effect on it's movement. 

as for the housing that goes from the chainstay to the derailleur, show me how you can use the same length for both derailleurs. it's not possible. shadow derailleurs dont' have barrel adjusters and the cable enters the derailleur in a completely different location than a standard derailleur. 

and for kt22mike, ANY 9 speed shimano derailleur will work. doesn't matter if it's shadow or regular. NO 10 speed dyna-sys derailleur will work. all i'm saying is that it's slightly easier/quicker to use the 'standard' type derailleur, but the shadow 9 speed will work fine as well.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

I'll concede to my my screw up argument on the cable.

You still have a little extra chain for the shifter/derailleur to work with with a longer car--- not much....

However, why can't you run, say.... the shadow RD medium cage with say... a 11-25 cassette?


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

*Help summarizing the various responses*



tednugent said:


> I'll concede to my my screw up argument on the cable.
> 
> You still have a little extra chain for the shifter/derailleur to work with with a longer car--- not much....
> 
> However, why can't you run, say.... the shadow RD medium cage with say... a 11-25 cassette?


Ted Nugent, et al:

Your last post has me confused and I have gotten lost with all the replies on this thread (all helpful by the way). So let me see if I can restate what I think I should do (original goal was to get larger gears on my bike not supported by my 7800 dura ace derailleur which maxes out at either 27 or 28 unofficially).

1. Buy a 12-32T cassette so I can comfortably climb the Sierra's and Rockies on my planned trip.
2 Buy a 9 speed mountain Shimano rear derailleur and appropriate chain
3. The best RD would be to find one that has a barrel adjustment (probably a non shadow version) though this is getting harder to do.
4. A 9 speed shadow RD will also work - but I will lose the barrel adjustment. 
5. In either case (shadow or non-shadow) there are no adjustments needed to the derailleur cable or cable housing if I switch back to my dura ace derailleur after my ride. 
6. Technically I should get a long cage version of either derailleur - but given the 12-32 cassette "gear range" ((32-12) + (50-34) = 36) I could use a mid cage version of either RD. 
7. If I do go with an 11-32 cassette, I should get the long cage version of the derailleur (teeth difference of 37).
8. In either case shift time (mid cage or long cage) will not be affected.

Do I have this correct? 

If so, in reading the various forums suggest that the newer shadow derailleurs appear to be better in shifting and closer to my current dura ace. 

*So the last question is: What 9 speed Shimano shadow derailleur (model number please) will provide me with the best shifting experience?*

I appreciate all the responses - and getting confident that I can actually pull this off. Nothing would please me more than to make the modifications myself and smile as I crank up the mountains!!!!!


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

1. Yes.
2. Yes
3. MTB RD's don't have a barrel adjuster. On a MTB, the barrel adjuster is on the shifter itself.
















5. (This was where I was wrong)--- you have to trim the housing (might be able to leave the cable as is.. it would be hanging out at a long lenth)
6/7. Mid-cage is fine. you should be able to tune that difference, given the largest cog capacity of the RD.
8..... If length of cage/chain did not affect shift time... why bother swapping out to a DA when you don't need the 32T?

I have the Deore XT M772 medium cage RD.

If you go to Quality Bicycle Products: Bikes, Wholesale Bicycle Parts, Wholesale Bicycle distribution (then at the bottom, click 2012 Catalog)... go to page 394
XTR Shadow 9-speed would be the closest to a Dura Ace.

Non Shadow would be the Deore M590 or M591


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

Wow, this all seems complicated. Granted I run DuraAce 7900 but all I did was buy a Forte 9 speed 11-32 cassette popped it on, adj the barrels and rode the Mountain Mayhem.

Forte 11-32.....$27.00


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tednugent said:


> I'll concede to my my screw up argument on the cable.
> 
> You still have a little extra chain for the shifter/derailleur to work with with a longer car--- not much....
> 
> However, why can't you run, say.... the shadow RD medium cage with say... a 11-25 cassette?


that 'extra chain...' does not affect the speed of the shift at all. neither does the length of the derailleur cage. the different cage lengths are all below where the shift actually happens...the upper pulley and the body of the derailleur. what is hanging below that taking up slack in the chain doesn't do anything to slow down your shifts. nothing. zero. 

shadow derailleurs don't have a barrel adjuster but you can install one when you run the cable. a $3 jagwire adjuster will fit right in if you want to add one. as you pointed out, mtb shifters do indeed have adjusters built in, but road shifters don't. the OP could also add a barrel adjuster to the housing up at the shifter, too.


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## professionalsql (Apr 5, 2012)

IRD makes a set of "road" cassettes that go to the higher ratios - including an 11/34 and many in between. I can't claim to be familiar with them in actual practice, but considered them a while back (I've stuck with my Shimano 11/28 thus far with my 50/39 cranks, but had really considered going back to standard cranks but with the 11/34 cassette).


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

professionalsql said:


> IRD makes a set of "road" cassettes that go to the higher ratios - including an 11/34 and many in between. I can't claim to be familiar with them in actual practice, but considered them a while back (I've stuck with my Shimano 11/28 thus far with my 50/39 cranks, but had really considered going back to standard cranks but with the 11/34 cassette).


why would you go to the trouble of buying an IRD cassette which will never shift as well as a Shimano or SRAM equivalent? you can run down to your local shop and buy a quality cassette any day you want that will work better and not be as noisy.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

thanks. That is what I needed! BTY the QBP catalog is great and helps put all the different derailleurs in perspective. Something that is hard to do just "googling" part numbers or key words. Even better than the manufacturer's web site.


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## Phredly (May 2, 2012)

Just noticed this thread. If OP wants a simpler solution--try a Shimano 5700 105A GS derailleur. Built for 30T but a 32 will work seamlessly, and you can switch back and forth to any "smaller" cassettes with no adjustment. I use this on a 50-39-30 triple crank, a non asymmetric chain (Ultegra 6600) and a Sram 1070 12-32 cassette with no issues.

I can't speak to long term reliability of this setup, but I suspect it would be very similar to any 105 factory setup.

I probably wouldn't try this on anything larger than a 32T ie 34 or 36T--it would stretch the derailleur out too far in big--big combo ( not that you ever want to be in that combo but we all know what happens in the heat of the moment when there's no oxygen in your brain. For the really large cogs you will need a MTB derailleur.


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

Phredly said:


> Just noticed this thread. If OP wants a simpler solution--try a Shimano 5700 105A GS derailleur. Built for 30T but a 32 will work seamlessly, and you can switch back and forth to any "smaller" cassettes with no adjustment. I use this on a 50-39-30 triple crank, a non asymmetric chain (Ultegra 6600) and a Sram 1070 12-32 cassette with no issues.
> 
> I can't speak to long term reliability of this setup, but I suspect it would be very similar to any 105 factory setup.
> 
> I probably wouldn't try this on anything larger than a 32T ie 34 or 36T--it would stretch the derailleur out too far in big--big combo ( not that you ever want to be in that combo but we all know what happens in the heat of the moment when there's no oxygen in your brain. For the really large cogs you will need a MTB derailleur.


I have the 105 GS but can only put a 30T...a 32T cog rubs the guide pulley; even with b screw adjusted all the way; even tried a longer screw. It has to do with the length of the hanger. Some bikes have a shorter hanger (like mine)


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Phredly said:


> Just noticed this thread. If OP wants a simpler solution--try a Shimano 5700 105A GS derailleur. Built for 30T but a 32 will work seamlessly, and you can switch back and forth to any "smaller" cassettes with no adjustment. I use this on a 50-39-30 triple crank, a non asymmetric chain (Ultegra 6600) and a Sram 1070 12-32 cassette with no issues.
> 
> I can't speak to long term reliability of this setup, but I suspect it would be very similar to any 105 factory setup.
> 
> I probably wouldn't try this on anything larger than a 32T ie 34 or 36T--it would stretch the derailleur out too far in big--big combo ( not that you ever want to be in that combo but we all know what happens in the heat of the moment when there's no oxygen in your brain. For the really large cogs you will need a MTB derailleur.


a more experienced mechanic would say "on MY bike, a 5700 derailleur works, but your hanger may not be long enough for it to function properly." 
which is why i only recommended what i know will work every time.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

how do you tell if your shimano 5700 is an 105A GS? I looked on the back of mine and all is says on the bottom is RD5700. On the top there is a stamp "1A" but is is nowhere near the RD5700 stamp.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

the 5700 regardless of GS or SS is built for a 28T cassette

See: http://bike.shimano.com/media/techd...SI-5X90B-003-00-ENG_v1_m56577569830702204.PDF


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## Phredly (May 2, 2012)

kt22mike said:


> how do you tell if your shimano 5700 is an 105A GS? I looked on the back of mine and all is says on the bottom is RD5700. On the top there is a stamp "1A" but is is nowhere near the RD5700 stamp.


The 105 A is a recent Shimano tweaked derailleur mainly for the new Tiagra 4700 12-30 cassette. It puts the B screw at a slightly different angle which allows for larger cassette cogs without interference with the derailleur guide cogs. The 105 A GS is marked with "30T" on the outside of the guide cog cage ( there are pictures of on this site in earlier posts ). Your derailleur is unlikely to be the 105A unless your bike is new and came equipped with the 12-30 Shimano cassette. 

I should add that I tried this with a 5600 105 and couldn't get it to work, even with a longer B screw fully tightened down. The longer B screw was required even for the 105 A, but it is only screwed down about half way to clear the guide pulley. 

The only advantage is that you can move to smaller cassettes without much adjustment--maybe slight backing off the B screw to bring the guide cog in closer. Also I prefer the look of a road derailleur on the bike as opposed to the MTB alternative. 

The big advantage of using a MTB derailleur is that you could use even a 34 or 36T if required.

If you are serious about doing this, ask your LBS to install a 105A, but make it clear to them that you will purchase MTB alternative if the road unit doesn't work out for whatever reason. They should be more than willing to do that for you.

Good luck


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

I thought the same but the 5700A does in fact state 30T is max. See text I copied from description...

_
The budget-friendly Shimano 105 Rear Derailleur gets an update for better compatibility with wide range cassettes. This 5700A model now wraps up to a 30t cog in both the short and mid cage versions, so you can conquer the hills with ease._

The question I have is how do you tell if you have a 5700 or 5700A? All mine says is RD5700.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

kt22mike said:


> I thought the same but the 5700A does in fact state 30T is max. See text I copied from description...
> 
> _
> The budget-friendly Shimano 105 Rear Derailleur gets an update for better compatibility with wide range cassettes. This 5700A model now wraps up to a 30t cog in both the short and mid cage versions, so you can conquer the hills with ease._
> ...


go back a couple of posts and see Phredly's description.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

Sorry I missed this post. 

In any case thanks to this forum, I was able to upgrade my wife's Giant Dash to a more comfortable 11-28 cassette and now getting ready to tackle my dura ace 7800 upgrade as recommended in this forum (chain replacement still a bit of a worry).

I think upgrading her bike made her more agreeable to me taking off for 50 days next year on my cross country bike adventure! 

I only image what I could have pulled off if I had upgraded her to a 32T cassette!


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

Sorry to bother you. 

I never got to take my ride last year (broke my coloarbone). But just signed up and paid my deposit to do my ride across America this summer. I am pretty stoked.

In any case I hope you are still reading the forums. I am changing out my dura ace RD to support a 12-32 cassette and will use a Shimano XTR. I remember you said that it had to be a 9 speed Shimano RD to work with my Dura Ace 7800 shifter. My bike mechanic is asking my why a 10 speed XTR won't work. 

Any chance you can provide me an explanation so I can tell him before he orders? AS it stands I told him to order the 9 speed XTR 972 SGS. My bike has barrel adjusters on the frame so I am OK with not having any barrel adjusters on the RD itself.

Thanks in advance....


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

kt22mike said:


> Sorry to bother you.
> 
> I never got to take my ride last year (broke my coloarbone). But just signed up and paid my deposit to do my ride across America this summer. I am pretty stoked.
> 
> ...


no prob...
basically everything Shimano has made in the last 10-15 years uses the same cable pull:derailleur movement ratio. the ONLY thing that is different is the Dyna-Sys 10spd mountain bike drivetrain. soooooo...
if you use 10spd road shifters with a 7, 8, or 9spd mtb derailleur, the cable pull:derailleur movement ratio is correct. if you use a Dyna-Sys derailleur with 10spd road shifters, it will work poorly and only shift through about 7 gears. this is quite widely known information at this point, are you sure your mechanic is competent? 
you'll be fine using only the barrel adjusters on the frame. let us know how it turns out.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

thanks once again!!!!


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