# Lance, Andy and Berto



## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

Question:

After what we saw yesterday between Andy and Berto on that mountian stage, its obvious that they are 2 very special riders. That said, in his PRIME, would Lance have dropped them both yesterday?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Lance who ?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

No. Perhaps if the stars were aligned just right, but LA has said on more than one occasion their climbing talent (specifically Cont) is above that of anyone he had to face in his 7 Tour wins. 

But watching him and gape-mouthed Hoover (Jan) battle it out throught the years was a hoot. Good times.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

doped or clean? Clean the answer is no.


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> No. Perhaps if the stars were aligned just right, but LA has said on more than one occasion their climbing talent (specifically Cont) is above that of anyone he had to face in his 7 Tour wins.
> 
> But watching him and gape-mouthed Hoover (Jan) battle it out throught the years was a hoot. Good times.


Hello there.

Good point, I agree that LA didnt face this sort of competition during his run, training technology now being what it is, AS and AC have certainly taking things to another level.

I do wonder if they dope though, but again, as many say here, they all do, so who knows.


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

Well I dont know how to answer the doped or clean question, I always wanted to believe LA wasnt doping but I dont know.

The question now is, does AS and AC dope?


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## leadag (Jan 4, 2005)

*the yardstick is..*

the yardstick is Rasmussen. He raced against LA in his last campaign, and then against conti the following year.... 

LA seemed to have a slight upper hand on him in climbing during whichever year was LA's last win.... (although, the TT was a different story!)

The following year el'chicken was finally able to crack Conti, prior to his ejection...

So, ignoring lot'sa variables, i'd say they would have been fairly close.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

First mtn top stage of a tour, bad weather, LA from 2000/2001 might be able beat both up a finishing mountain. Any other time, my money would be on AC/AS. 

(Pure speculation...I'm not a fanboi. But LA seemed to really hit the first mountain finish with his full punch. Hit hard before the climbers really get the mountain legs going. After that it was just holding serve and limiting losses gainst the better climbers. This deep into a tour, he would always have a bad day or just hang on...never would have been able to win Thursday's stage)


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

AS and AC may have the the edge in the mountains, but where they certainly without doubt fall short is brains. AS/AC will learn a lot through their years and at the end, end up where LA is now facing a new group of green and physically better contenders. Oh how the circle of life turns...


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Oh Come On*

LA is now 38, he cant climb like he did, he cant TT he cant recover, he is OLD. He KNOWS he is old, he has stated he is old, his career in cycling at this level is done. 

He has 7 TDF overalls in a row. There is NOTHING to feel sorry about NOTHING.


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## Crank-a-Roo (Mar 21, 2003)

But Merckx can beat all 3 of them on a steel 10 speed bike.


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## MrDomino (Dec 30, 2008)

ttug said:


> LA is now 38, he cant climb like he did, he cant TT he cant recover, he is OLD. He KNOWS he is old, he has stated he is old, his career in cycling at this level is done.
> 
> He has 7 TDF overalls in a row. There is NOTHING to feel sorry about NOTHING.


To compare him to Michael Schumacher who came back to Formula 1, I think that both of them realized that they're old and probably never going to win the TdF/F1 Driver's Championship again but they have passion for what they're doing and need to be on a bike/in an F1 car because they miss it so much when they're not.

Or maybe it's just a midlife crisis....


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

Lance is still FAST. Try racing him on a mountain bike. He destroys the pro field here in Tx...and elsewhere. It's fun to watch. It makes me realize how fast the pro tour guys are.


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

MrDomino said:


> To compare him to Michael Schumacher who came back to Formula 1, I think that both of them realized that they're old and probably never going to win the TdF/F1 Driver's Championship again but they have passion for what they're doing and need to be on a bike/in an F1 car because they miss it so much when they're not.
> 
> Or maybe it's just a midlife crisis....


Spoonface hasn't lost his edge though, he's still a pain in the ass to pass. Now if Brawn could get him and Nico a car that wasn't so slow...


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

Interesting comment, do you seriously think all 4 in their prime, LA, AS, AC and Merekx, but Merekx on the old steel very heavy ten speed and the others using todays tech, Merekx beats them?




Thats like saying Conners or Mac could beat Sampres with a wooden racket or Ben Hogan would beat Tiger with wooden shaft clubs.


I dont know...is it the tech or the talent? Little of both I am sure.

I am certain Russel would mop the floor with any player today with him wearing chuck talyors and they wearing Nike Airs.


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

yater said:


> Lance is still FAST. Try racing him on a mountain bike. He destroys the pro field here in Tx...and elsewhere. It's fun to watch. It makes me realize how fast the pro tour guys are.


True, without the crashes Lance would likely podium this TdF, I am sure of that.


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

I dont know where to find the info but how could we compare TdF overall times of guys like Merekx and LA, AC etc. Would this give us some idea if Merekx could even comptete with his eras technology against the riders of today on their high tech bikes?


Its interesting to ponder.


In golf for example, Hogan was shooting the same scores as Woods is today on most of the same courses and he was using wooden shafts, however, the courses are longer today because of the technology so I am not sure how to compare that.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

Percival said:


> Question:
> 
> After what we saw yesterday between Andy and Berto on that mountian stage, its obvious that they are 2 very special riders. That said, in his PRIME, would Lance have dropped them both yesterday?


it would be close to AC/AS this year. AC lost a step or 2 this year.

There is 1:40 back to menchov. LA could have held that wheel last year.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/cycling/tour-de-france/standings/yellow-17.html

But you have to realize, this was a brutal tour this year. Definitely for *pure climbers*.

I think LA would have hanged.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

Crank-a-Roo said:


> But Merckx can beat all 3 of them on a steel 10 speed bike.


^this^


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## sanrensho (Jan 2, 2003)

At least we didn't have to watch Lance and Jan being warm and fuzzy with each other. There was some real rivalry and psychological maneuvering going on, mixed with healthy respect.

I will puke if we have to look forward to several years of the Andy/Bert rivalry-slash-buddyfest.

It's way too nice.


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

Another question, if Frank had no gotten injured would he have been right there on Andy's and Berto's wheel in that mountian slugfest?


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Percival said:


> Question:
> 
> After what we saw yesterday between Andy and Berto on that mountian stage, its obvious that they are 2 very special riders. That said, in his PRIME, would Lance have dropped them both yesterday?


Maybe. But I would still take a DOPED up RASMUSSEN, over them all.


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## bikeguy0 (Sep 23, 2007)

Chuck Norris could beat all three of them riding a unicycle with one leg.


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

Crank-a-Roo said:


> But Merckx can beat all 3 of them on a steel 10 speed bike.


Werd... 

They should feel just lucky not having to compete against the likes of Merckx or Indurain.


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

Merckx was the best pure and simple. The difference between Merckx and Contador/Schleck of this year is that he wouldn't have waited til the Tourmalet to attack he would have attacked when Sastre attacked the difference being that Merckx>>>> Sastre as a climber and Merckx>>>>>>>>>>>>Sastre on the flat slightly hilly areas. Merckx would have caught the breakway and then wiped them away on the Tourmalet

The other difference was that Merckx >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contador and Schleck on the cobbles. 

Merckx>>> Contador and Merckx >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Schleck in ITT.

Remember Merckx held the world hour record until Chris Boardman beat with significantly improved technology.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

OLD SPICE GUY can finish the TDF on a big wheel, in winter.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Merckx would have just ran down the tourmalet carrying his bike. (and did once to prove a point to french journalists)


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## zipptrek (Jun 16, 2002)

I would love to get a look at their powermeter data.


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## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

bikeguy0 said:


> Chuck Norris could beat all three of them riding a unicycle with one leg.


Chuck will end up passing out..trying to keep up on the climb..and AC and AS will end up giving each other high-fives at the summit ..


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

zipptrek said:


> I would love to get a look at their powermeter data.


If you are referring to Eddy, he actually had a powermeter back then, once he rode so fast down the Col de la Bonette he WARPED INTO THE FUTURE (year 2026) picked up a POWERMETER and travelled back down the Bonette and installed the device..


It read..


10,9856.56 kW


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_de_la_Bonette


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Percival said:


> True, without the crashes Lance would likely podium this TdF, I am sure of that.


You really think so? You think he is (right now) a better climber than Menchov/Sanchez? I doubt it. I think he has a good shot at finishing top 10, around 5-8th but certainly not podium.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Can't compare. They're from different points in time. you can't use your taste of lance from this year to enter into your opinion. lets look at contador when he's 38 then. Merckx would have been crushed yesterday on the tourmalet.......he's 61. 
one thing is certain, though: If lance was in schleck's position yesterday, he would not have ridden a constant pace up the tourmalet and motopaced contador to the yellow. he probably would have grabbed contador by the shirt, force him to lead as a maillot jeune should, and then attacked him repeatedly until one of the pair cracked. That is the difference between a 7 time tour winner and andy schleck. I'm no lance groupie, but that's how I see it.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Without crashes, LA is still not on the podium. /end


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

Fignon's Barber said:


> Can't compare. They're from different points in time. you can't use your taste of lance from this year to enter into your opinion. lets look at contador when he's 38 then. Merckx would have been crushed yesterday on the tourmalet.......he's 61.
> one thing is certain, though: If lance was in schleck's position yesterday, he would not have ridden a constant pace up the tourmalet and motopaced contador to the yellow. he probably would have grabbed contador by the shirt, force him to lead as a maillot jeune should, and then attacked him repeatedly until one of the pair cracked. That is the difference between a 7 time tour winner and andy schleck. I'm no lance groupie, but that's how I see it.


Someone posted an interview where Andy himself says he tried changing tempo, charging, everything he could but just didn't cracked AC.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I kind of chuckle how everybody thinks today's riders are so much faster, or that yesterday's riders would dominate. Given equal nutrition, technology, training, etc. many of the top champions throughout history would probably be fairly comparable. In the past 100 years there hasn't been evolutionary leaps in human performance, it's been more about the other factors. If all the great champions of the Tour could race one another virtually at the same age with the same training etc. it would probably come down to desire and pain threshold.


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## MrDomino (Dec 30, 2008)

Percival said:


> I dont know where to find the info but how could we compare TdF overall times of guys like Merekx and LA, AC etc. Would this give us some idea if Merekx could even comptete with his eras technology against the riders of today on their high tech bikes?
> 
> 
> Its interesting to ponder.
> ...


I think it's impossible to compare. The only true comparison is how a person measures up to his or her competitors. 

If you put Graham Hill in a current F1 car then his brain would probably explode due to the speed but back in his day with the cars that were available and the people he had to beat, he was the best.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

terzo rene said:


> doped or clean? Clean the answer is no.


...FAIL...


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

nOOky said:


> I kind of chuckle how everybody thinks today's riders are so much faster, or that yesterday's riders would dominate. Given equal nutrition, technology, training, etc. many of the top champions throughout history would probably be fairly comparable. In the past 100 years there hasn't been evolutionary leaps in human performance, it's been more about the other factors. If all the great champions of the Tour could race one another virtually at the same age with the same training etc. it would probably come down to desire and pain threshold.


Given equal everything (including genetics?) they will be equal.

But next generation of athletes is almost always better. Very few world records can be unbeaten for more than a decade - think track and field, swimming, weightlifting etc.
Human performance at the very top level is incrementally increasing, due to simply a much larger pool of potential athletes - both through greater world population, and also through larger fraction of population having access to training, nutrition etc. - and I mean on a very basic level. We now see a lot of North american, south american and even asian riders compete, whereas 30 or 40 years ago it would be unheard of. Similar to marathons where kenyan and ethiopian runners dominate the world scene - athletes who wouldn't have access to world-level marathons 50 years ago.

Chances are - Contador is better than Armstrong, and Armstrong is better than Indurane and Lemond, who are in turn better than (gasp!) Merckx, etc.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

*Frank, where for art thou?*



Percival said:


> Another question, if Frank had no gotten injured would he have been right there on Andy's and Berto's wheel in that mountian slugfest?


Good point. I suspect the Schlecks would have double teamed Conti - but not sure if that really would have changed much. Conti just had to hang on to the most dangerous Schleck - Andy.

Re. Lance and crashes - IMHO - Too old. Barring his bad luck (declining bike handleing skills?) - top ten finish at best. No podium. But the Fanbois will always believe thier boy was robbed. :mad2: :cryin:


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

Can anyone tell me about the year Contador was expelled, this year will be his third in a row right, so what happened that year, was it the year before his first win and what did Rass have to do with it? That was the year I did my last tour in Iraq and didnt get to see the TdF and didnt follow up much on what had happened. Please explain what took place, why, who, what and how etc.

Thanks much!


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

AC won the tour in 2007 - after the chicken gets kicked out
Vino gets busted for blood doping - ASO not amused
Astana not invited to the 2008 Tour - AC wins Giro and Vuelta instead
AC wins the tour in 2009

Percival - Thanks for serving our country


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

godot said:


> AC won the tour in 2007 - after the chicken gets kicked out
> Vino gets busted for blood doping - ASO not amused
> Astana not invited to the 2008 Tour - AC wins Giro and Vuelta instead
> AC wins the tour in 2009
> ...


Would add that Contador's win in 2007 was riding for Johan Bruyneel on Discovery Channel. That team ceased to be at that point, and Contador, Levi and others followed Bruyneel to Astana - this was before they knew they would be left out of the 2008 Tour. Bruyneel left Astana after last year to run the Shack.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Percival said:


> Question:
> 
> After what we saw yesterday between Andy and Berto on that mountian stage, its obvious that they are 2 very special riders. That said, in his PRIME, would Lance have dropped them both yesterday?


It's hard to say because doping throws a huge monkey wrench into any assessment. NO ONE is putting out the power now that the top riders were putting out in the heyday of effective doping (lets say the early 90s to ~2005-2006).

Contador and Schleck with this Tour's power would probably at best have been fighting for a top 10 spot back in the day, maybe just anonymous pack-fill, then again back in the day they would have been better "prepared" even if now they might not be riding completely without assistance.


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

i think the more important question is whether contador and schleck, when they are 39, can beat present day armstrong. on merckxs 10 speed steel bike.


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

55x11 said:


> Given equal everything (including genetics?) they will be equal.
> 
> But next generation of athletes is almost always better. Very few world records can be unbeaten for more than a decade - think track and field, swimming, weightlifting etc.
> Human performance at the very top level is incrementally increasing, due to simply a much larger pool of potential athletes - both through greater world population, and also through larger fraction of population having access to training, nutrition etc. - and I mean on a very basic level. We now see a lot of North american, south american and even asian riders compete, whereas 30 or 40 years ago it would be unheard of. Similar to marathons where kenyan and ethiopian runners dominate the world scene - athletes who wouldn't have access to world-level marathons 50 years ago.
> ...



The results speak for themselves. You can certain suggest that it is more difficult to win a tour now than it was during Merckx's heyday very few riders completed a triple crown over a career let alone one year (although Merckx was Dq'd from the Giro). Toss in all the classic wins including Paris Roubaix 3x not to mention winning the Maillot jaune, green jersey, and king of the mountains in the same race. 

Merckx was different than the rest because his pain threshold was superhuman.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

LesDiablesRouges said:


> Remember Merckx held the world hour record until Chris Boardman beat with significantly improved technology.


I believe there are some power estimates out there from that performance. And while Merckx was certainly a doper, he didn't have any real effective options, so that at least removes that unknown quantity.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

In the end these type of comparison are moot, as the doping factor is just to big of an unknown. So sarcasm is my only answer in determining a winner.


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

Thanks godot, I did what I had to do, wasnt much fun but I came home alive, and thanks to the both of you for the helpful answer, I was totally unaware that Astana was not invited in 2008, interesting. I did know that Vino was busted for doping but I didnt know it had become all of that.


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## barhopper (Aug 10, 2009)

ttug said:


> LA is now 38, he cant climb like he did, he cant TT he cant recover, he is OLD. He KNOWS he is old, he has stated he is old, his career in cycling at this level is done.
> 
> He has 7 TDF overalls in a row. There is NOTHING to feel sorry about NOTHING.





His days of *winning the Tour * may be over but he can still kick *most* of their asses in that bike race.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

Phil says Lance would have podiumed. Phil is god, therefore Lance would have podiumed!


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## Percival (Jul 7, 2010)

cheddarlove said:


> Phil says Lance would have podiumed. Phil is god, therefore Lance would have podiumed!


I really believe without the crashes he would have podiumed. I dont think we can use his performance after the crashes as a measure of how good he is this year because it was clear to him and everyone else that after the crash he had no chance to podium and certainly he lost a bit of his spirit and didnt ride as hard thereafter, more than likely riding more to 'take it all in one last time' than to seriously compete and try to win/podium, since, again, such was out of the question and likely impossible barring a miracle/act of god.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

Ridin'Sorra said:


> Someone posted an interview where Andy himself says he tried changing tempo, charging, everything he could but just didn't cracked AC.


I don't need an interview to see that. Schleck gave AC everything he had...anyone could see it in his face. It was a great stage.


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## dasho (Apr 8, 2002)

*Nico's car seems to be better than,,,*

Spoonface's or Nico is even a better driver - I tend to think the latter.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

Lance could have podiumed this year if everything went perfect to the plan. However.... The stress of doping allegations worn him down mentally, add the crashes, heat, slowed recovery, and the flat on stage 3 to that and suddenly he's minutes off pace in the Alps and he knows it is over. How motivated would you be to give'r if you knew it would only mean a stage win when you already have 25 of them. It was disappointing to see him give in, but one thing is for sure this time around. He raced this tour clean no doubt about it.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

*Was Rasmussen doped-up?*



shabbasuraj said:


> Maybe. But I would still take a DOPED up RASMUSSEN, over them all.


Don't believe that's been established.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

shabbasuraj said:


> Without crashes, LA is still not on the podium. /end


Contrast AS with LA yesterday. Lance does not look anywhere near as comfortable as Schleck. Crashes or not LA was never making the top 10 let alone the podium


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

ultimobici said:


> Contrast AS with LA yesterday. Lance does not look anywhere near as comfortable as Schleck. Crashes or not LA was never making the top 10 let alone the podium


Based on this picture? ****, why even have the tour? We can just run them for a few days and take some pics to decide who wins. I like those world champion stripes, BTW.


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## F.P. (Jul 26, 2005)

sanrensho said:


> At least we didn't have to watch Lance and Jan being warm and fuzzy with each other. There was some real rivalry and psychological maneuvering going on, mixed with healthy respect.
> 
> I will puke if we have to look forward to several years of the Andy/Bert rivalry-slash-buddyfest.
> 
> It's way too nice.


+1! WAY TOO KISSY, KISSY, WINKY, HUGGY.....Andy needs to find his inner Eddy.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

It's amazing to me how many people on RBR can interpret events based on a single photo that has no background info included with which to base the context. One can only hope most of you work for the CIA or NSA in their photo analyst divisions.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

LesDiablesRouges said:


> Merckx was the best pure and simple. The difference between Merckx and Contador/Schleck of this year is that he wouldn't have waited til the Tourmalet to attack he would have attacked when Sastre attacked the difference being that Merckx>>>> Sastre as a climber and Merckx>>>>>>>>>>>>Sastre on the flat slightly hilly areas. Merckx would have caught the breakway and then wiped them away on the Tourmalet
> 
> The other difference was that Merckx >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contador and Schleck on the cobbles.
> 
> ...


The difference is also that Merckx had fewer incredibly trained opponents, and there was no race radio!

Not that Merckx isn't the greatest of all time, but he didn't compete under present day conditions, so there is no way to directly compare. It's like claiming that Babe Ruth would have hit 900 HR with today's balls and bats. Does not compute.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

thesmokingman said:


> AS and AC may have the the edge in the mountains, but where they certainly without doubt fall short is brains. AS/AC will learn a lot through their years and at the end, end up where LA is now facing a new group of green and physically better contenders. Oh how the circle of life turns...


How true. Alberto had better find himself a better DS. Riis?


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> ... LA has said on more than one occasion their climbing talent (specifically Cont) is above that of anyone he had to face in his 7 Tour wins....


I am sorry not to have read the name Marco Pantani in any of these posts. He is still the best climber I ever saw, may he rest in peace. :sad:


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

LesDiablesRouges said:


> The results speak for themselves. You can certain suggest that it is more difficult to win a tour now than it was during Merckx's heyday very few riders completed a triple crown over a career let alone one year (although Merckx was Dq'd from the Giro). Toss in all the classic wins including Paris Roubaix 3x not to mention winning the Maillot jaune, green jersey, and king of the mountains in the same race.
> 
> Merckx was different than the rest because his pain threshold was superhuman.


The depth and competitive level of the field has a lot to do with it. In the past it was easier to show utter domination by a huge margin - in almost all sports - but this has nothing to do with the superhuman abilities of those riders that are never reproduced in modern times, and everything to do with the rest of the field.

To get some perspective, look at track and field, which is somewhat similar to cycling in terms of fitness demands, but has absolute scale of record times etc.
By the same logic guys like Paavo Nurmi (distance runner in 1920ies who won 9 golds and 3 silver medals in 12 events) is the best distance runner who ever lived. But his times were rather pedestrian, by today's standards. If you transplanted him in a time machine to 2010, even with modern shoes and training methods he would get his ass kicked by kenyan runners, guaranteed 100%. Probably would get lapped in 5K race. Despite his dominance he has never broken 30 minutes for 10K, for example, something that plenty of US college kids do nowadays.

Like it or not, but Usain Bolt is A LOT faster than Jesse Owens, and El Guerrouj is A LOT faster than Bannister.

It's more difficult to make the similar comparison in cycling, since even in events like 1-hour record, the bike components/position has evolved dramatically. But it's not unreasonable to assume that cycling is no different - in which case Contador and Armstrong would easily beat Merckx, Copi or Anquetil.


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## MrDomino (Dec 30, 2008)

yater said:


> Based on this picture? ****, why even have the tour? We can just run them for a few days and take some pics to decide who wins. I like those world champion stripes, BTW.


He could be saying "look at my nasty, rotting fingernail" and Lance is making that face at his nasty, rotting fingernail for all we know.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Italophile said:


> I am sorry not to have read the name Marco Pantani in any of these posts. He is still the best climber I ever saw, may he rest in peace. :sad:


Indeed. And he never went head to head with Armstrong when he was in his prime. 

RIP, Marco.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Lance was not considered to be a pure climber. Heras could ride him off his wheel. 

I say no.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Crank-a-Roo said:


> But Merckx can beat all 3 of them on a steel 10 speed bike.


Up hill and in a hurricane


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

godot said:


> It's amazing to me how many people on RBR can interpret events based on a single photo that has no background info included with which to base the context. One can only hope most of you work for the CIA or NSA in their photo analyst divisions.


Judging by the quality of work they have done in the last decade, that's hardly an insult!


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## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

I think they were interviewing Gilbert in the Giro last year and he said the same think when asked to rank the stars of today against the past. Much harder(athletically) today, but everyone knows it's much harder so in a sense the mental toughness is similar. It's like getting into a good college today, it's harder than when I went, but everyone knows the standards are higher and have a better idea of how to move up to that level.



55x11 said:


> The depth and competitive level of the field has a lot to do with it. In the past it was easier to show utter domination by a huge margin - in almost all sports - but this has nothing to do with the superhuman abilities of those riders that are never reproduced in modern times, and everything to do with the rest of the field.
> 
> To get some perspective, look at track and field, which is somewhat similar to cycling in terms of fitness demands, but has absolute scale of record times etc.
> By the same logic guys like Paavo Nurmi (distance runner in 1920ies who won 9 golds and 3 silver medals in 12 events) is the best distance runner who ever lived. But his times were rather pedestrian, by today's standards. If you transplanted him in a time machine to 2010, even with modern shoes and training methods he would get his ass kicked by kenyan runners, guaranteed 100%. Probably would get lapped in 5K race. Despite his dominance he has never broken 30 minutes for 10K, for example, something that plenty of US college kids do nowadays.
> ...


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

> I will puke if we have to look forward to several years of the Andy/Bert rivalry-slash-buddyfest.


Agree entirely, at the very top of the last climbing stage it got a little awkward as Contador grabbed Schleck's cheek and winked, hugged, etc... then yesterday as they giggled and rode alongside each other in their pseudo breakaway and held hands (yet again ), I was starting to wonder if their plan had been to pull off to the side, make out, and rejoin the peleton


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

In golf for example said:


> Pretty sure Hogan never played a professional round of golf using hickory shafts.
> They were all but gone by 1935. Steel shafts were seeing play in 1925.
> Hogan did not win his first professional tourney until '40.


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