# Nutrition/Calorie Advice for a Century



## riden1966

So I am signed up for my first century July 5th and plan to do two this summer. 

So I was reading the details of the day and the race is supported and offers a light breakfast(that I won't be attending) and nutritional supplements plus water and powerade. But states it does not provide main meals of the day (paraphrasing).

The race starts at 9:30 and I hope to be done at 3:00. I usually arrange long rides around meals (leave after lunch) , and when I am done, I am starving.

Do you think that I will need to make any special food arrangements when I am going to be skipping lunch?


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## bigjohnla

You will burn a lot of calories. I would plan on snacking pretty much the whole time. You want easy stuff to deal with like Granola bars, energy gels, things that you can stash in your jersey pocket. I really like Cliff Bar Shot Blocks. They are sort of a super gum drop and contain both electrolytes and carbohydrates. In my experience, the thing that gets more folks than anything is poor hydration. You really have to guzzle the liquids. It is extremely common to get caught up in the excitement of the event and not drink enough especially early on. Once you start getting thirsty it can often be too late. You will be operating at a deficit the rest of the day. I recommend that you start hydrating a day ahead of the event. During the event I have an alert set on my GPS to sound every mile and every 5 minutes. That is my signal to drink. Sort of a Pavlov's dog type of thing. Also don't listen to that voice in you head that says "Why am I doing this?".


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## evs

First off, it's not a race. Correct? If it's an organized century, it's probably not a race. If that is the case, pace yourself. Start off a bit slower than you normally would and save some energy for the last 25. That's the zone that is both mental as well as physical. You can always go faster near the end. Make sure you drink a bottle an hour and eat at the stops. It's better to over eat a little than not enough. Practice eating on the bike. Even if you don't feel hungry, eat. About 250 to 300 calories an hour. Also, stopping at the stops is good to stretch and take some weight off of your neck and shoulders for a short time. Don't make the stops longer than 10 minutes. It's hard to get the legs going again after a long stop and the most important thing. Have Fun. Good luck and let us know how you did.

evs (wishing I was riding on this rainy day)


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## Mr645

After doing a few I have learned what I need. First, I start drinking early, within the first 5 miles and make sure I drink an ounce per mile. Some people need more, some a little less, but an ounce per mile works for me. After the first hour I will start snacking on Clif Bars, or whatever your favorite energy bar is, about one per hour. I also carry energy gels but mainly go to those if I start feeling tired. For 100 miles I will want at least one real meal, if not two. While the Clif bars help keep me going, stopping for an egg salad sandwich, or a burrito, something really helps. For 100 miles I would try to plan for 4 stops. At about 30 miles a quick stop, 5-10 minutes, refill water bottles, stretch a bit, ride on. Around 50-60 miles, lunch, 15-20 minutes, and finally another 5-10 stop around 75 miles. 
Always refill all your bottles at each stop, you never know when something may put you behind, a flat, whatever and the last thing you want to do is bonk because your dehydrated


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## MMsRepBike

You are lucky it is starting so late. 9:30 is unheard of outside of the winter where I'm from. Our events usually all start between 7 and 8. My advice is to train yourself to get up around 6 or so if you don't already. You're going to want a few hours to get up if you're like me. 

In the morning it's key to go to the bathroom as much as you can. Trust me, you don't want to be out there and have to do a #2. Try to get all of that taken care of in the morning.

Next up is nutrition. I strongly suggest to stay away from packaged goods. If you're not used to ingesting "gels" or "shot blocks" or whatever on a usual basis, do not do it now. Do not put anything foreign into your body, it often times causes more problems than good. My advice is to blend up 6 or 10 RIPE bananas with water and have that for breakfast. Nothing wrong with a good bowl of oatmeal either.

The rest stops will mainly have gatorade, unripe bananas, oranges, cheap pb&j, and whatever else they think is good. Pickles, grapes, packaged gels or bars, etc. I would stay away from their bananas. If the bananas aren't covered in brown spots, they're called bonking bananas. Bananas are full of starch that gets converted to sugar as they ripen. The sugar is what you want, so you'll need the banana to be spotted/brown/you know. Greenish or all yellow bananas do very little to help you out. If all they have is unripe ones, pass. Eat oranges, lots of oranges. Maybe grapes. You're looking for as much natural sugar as you can get. When I start the ride, I always have 4 ripe bananas in my jersey, you cannot trust the rest stops.

You have to eat every hour on the hour at least. It's not an option really. On a century you can start out with one banana an hour, but you'll need to move to two at least near the end. You won't be hungry, but you have to eat. Bananas are easy to eat on the bike, just eat one when everyone else is eating. Most riders will eat at least every hour. If you have dates, they're good to put in the jersey as well.

Use every rest stop even if you don't need it. Until you get used to doing the distance, use the rest stops. Give your butt and back a break, if only for a few minutes. At the end of the distance stop as much as you need to. I like to break up the ride. Think of it as smaller rides, between rest stops. So instead of riding 100 miles, you're just doing 5 20 mile rides or whatever.


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## bigjohnla

MMsRepBike said:


> If you're not used to ingesting "gels" or "shot blocks" or whatever on a usual basis, do not do it now. Do not put anything foreign into your body, it often times causes more problems than good.


This is superb advice. By all means do not try anything new in the middle of a century ride. I use gel shot blocks and granola bars a lot and bring them with me on every single ride of any substantial distance. At the Hotter N Hell 100 they give out PICKLE JUICE at rest stops. Many folks swear by it, but I also know a couple of folks that did not tolerate it well. The same with Powerade, Gatorade or any other sports drink. Those drinks are often loaded with sugar. When I am really sweating, a huge jolt of sugary Gatorade gives me an upset stomach. I alwasy cut the gatorade with some water to dilute it a bit. The advice about always filling up your bottles whenever you get a chance is good, too. A bandana over your head soaked in ice water is very refreshing on a long ride too. Which century are you riding in ?


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## ericm979

5.5 hours is an agressive goal for a first century especially if there is any significant climbing. Most people start out too fast and suffer for the last part. Some even think it's a race. It's not unless they're taking times and publishing results. Even then if you start out too fast you will pay for it later.

Unless you are real familiar with moderately long rides like 60-70 miles and know yourself well I suggest a more realistic goal would be finishing. Start WAY slower than you normally ride. If you're still feeling good at mile 75 then ramp it up.

You are correct that you need to plan to replace the lunch you'd normally eat. But the problem is that while riding your digestive system does not run at normal capacity. The harder you ride the less it works. For most people at an endurance pace, 250-300 cal/hr is about all they can eat without feeling ill. This means that you need to eat small amounts often rather than pigging out at the rest stops (you can do that, you just have to ride slower). 

At centuries I will grab some food at the stops and stash some in my jersey to eat while riding. I also make sure I have at least a spare gel in case I run low on food or it takes me longer to get to the next stop than I thought. Since I have food allergies I wind up bringing much of the food I will eat, so I don't have to ask the rest stop volunteers what's in the food (they usually don't know) or try to read labels.


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## riden1966

Thanks for all the great advice guys!


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## Rokh On

ericm979 said:


> 5.5 hours is an agressive goal for a first century especially if there is any significant climbing. Most people start out too fast and suffer for the last part. Some even think it's a race. It's not unless they're taking times and publishing results. Even then if you start out too fast you will pay for it later.
> 
> Unless you are real familiar with moderately long rides like 60-70 miles and know yourself well I suggest a more realistic goal would be finishing. Start WAY slower than you normally ride. If you're still feeling good at mile 75 then ramp it up.
> 
> You are correct that you need to plan to replace the lunch you'd normally eat. But the problem is that while riding your digestive system does not run at normal capacity. The harder you ride the less it works. For most people at an endurance pace, 250-300 cal/hr is about all they can eat without feeling ill. This means that you need to eat small amounts often rather than pigging out at the rest stops (you can do that, you just have to ride slower).


^this^

Plus starting at 9:30 a.m. on July 5th? Hot or cool where you are? Does the heat affect your riding?

I like pb&j bonk breaker bars or make my own peanut butter and strawberry sandwiches ... not on white bread. I cut them in quarters and stuff them into a Ziploc bag. I also love blueberry bagels with peanut butter. I would start hydrating the day before. Water may only work so far for you. I bring one bottle for water and one for Osmo. Osmo works really well for me with no ill affects on the stomach yet. I agree with the previous comments about not experimenting with gels and drinks on the ride. If you are going to try a hydration drink then try now and on multiple rides.

Remember what Eric says above. It's not a race. Relax, take a deep breath, and go with a casual pace you are comfortable with and enjoy yourself. Don't get caught up in the excitement at the start and the other riders at a pace that is not for you.

Have a great ride.


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## riden1966

evs said:


> First off, it's not a race. Correct? If it's an organized century, it's probably not a race. If that is the case, pace yourself. Start off a bit slower than you normally would and save some energy for the last 25. That's the zone that is both mental as well as physical. You can always go faster near the end. Make sure you drink a bottle an hour and eat at the stops. It's better to over eat a little than not enough. Practice eating on the bike. Even if you don't feel hungry, eat. About 250 to 300 calories an hour. Also, stopping at the stops is good to stretch and take some weight off of your neck and shoulders for a short time. Don't make the stops longer than 10 minutes. It's hard to get the legs going again after a long stop and the most important thing. Have Fun. Good luck and let us know how you did.
> 
> evs (wishing I was riding on this rainy day)


It is a ride, and they don't even give an official time. The ride in late Aug, is more competitive and we see some pro riders too. I really want to do well in Aug and will work all summer to it.

The July ride really is to see what my weaknesses are. I live on the prairies and both rides are in the Rockies.....so I have some work to do.


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## riden1966

MMsRepBike said:


> You are lucky it is starting so late. 9:30 is unheard of outside of the winter where I'm from. Our events usually all start between 7 and 8. My advice is to train yourself to get up around 6 or so if you don't already. You're going to want a few hours to get up if you're like me.
> 
> In the morning it's key to go to the bathroom as much as you can. Trust me, you don't want to be out there and have to do a #2. Try to get all of that taken care of in the morning.
> 
> Next up is nutrition. I strongly suggest to stay away from packaged goods. If you're not used to ingesting "gels" or "shot blocks" or whatever on a usual basis, do not do it now. Do not put anything foreign into your body, it often times causes more problems than good. My advice is to blend up 6 or 10 RIPE bananas with water and have that for breakfast. Nothing wrong with a good bowl of oatmeal either.
> 
> The rest stops will mainly have gatorade, unripe bananas, oranges, cheap pb&j, and whatever else they think is good. Pickles, grapes, packaged gels or bars, etc. I would stay away from their bananas. If the bananas aren't covered in brown spots, they're called bonking bananas. Bananas are full of starch that gets converted to sugar as they ripen. The sugar is what you want, so you'll need the banana to be spotted/brown/you know. Greenish or all yellow bananas do very little to help you out. If all they have is unripe ones, pass. Eat oranges, lots of oranges. Maybe grapes. You're looking for as much natural sugar as you can get. When I start the ride, I always have 4 ripe bananas in my jersey, you cannot trust the rest stops.
> 
> You have to eat every hour on the hour at least. It's not an option really. On a century you can start out with one banana an hour, but you'll need to move to two at least near the end. You won't be hungry, but you have to eat. Bananas are easy to eat on the bike, just eat one when everyone else is eating. Most riders will eat at least every hour. If you have dates, they're good to put in the jersey as well.
> 
> Use every rest stop even if you don't need it. Until you get used to doing the distance, use the rest stops. Give your butt and back a break, if only for a few minutes. At the end of the distance stop as much as you need to. I like to break up the ride. Think of it as smaller rides, between rest stops. So i
> nstead of riding 100 miles, you're just doing 5 20 mile rides or whatever.


I don't eat any packages stuff at all, I eat a lot of fruit and homemade granola bars and such. That is good advice. I should take some homemade snacks I am more used to eating.

I have done one race before, an enduro and I had a hard time getting any food in as I was really sucking wind....and I just couldn't eat. But I can't let myself get there in this ride.

I plan to stop every stop, and down a water bottle and eat something.


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## riden1966

bigjohnla said:


> This is superb advice. By all means do not try anything new in the middle of a century ride. I use gel shot blocks and granola bars a lot and bring them with me on every single ride of any substantial distance. At the Hotter N Hell 100 they give out PICKLE JUICE at rest stops. Many folks swear by it, but I also know a couple of folks that did not tolerate it well. The same with Powerade, Gatorade or any other sports drink. Those drinks are often loaded with sugar. When I am really sweating, a huge jolt of sugary Gatorade gives me an upset stomach. I alwasy cut the gatorade with some water to dilute it a bit. The advice about always filling up your bottles whenever you get a chance is good, too. A bandana over your head soaked in ice water is very refreshing on a long ride too. Which century are you riding in ?


I am doing Canmore's Fondo in July and Banff's in August.

I don't mind Gatorade, but I generally hate sweet anything. I haven't liked any gels I have tried.


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## riden1966

Mr645 said:


> After doing a few I have learned what I need. First, I start drinking early, within the first 5 miles and make sure I drink an ounce per mile. Some people need more, some a little less, but an ounce per mile works for me. After the first hour I will start snacking on Clif Bars, or whatever your favorite energy bar is, about one per hour. I also carry energy gels but mainly go to those if I start feeling tired. For 100 miles I will want at least one real meal, if not two. While the Clif bars help keep me going, stopping for an egg salad sandwich, or a burrito, something really helps. For 100 miles I would try to plan for 4 stops. At about 30 miles a quick stop, 5-10 minutes, refill water bottles, stretch a bit, ride on. Around 50-60 miles, lunch, 15-20 minutes, and finally another 5-10 stop around 75 miles.
> Always refill all your bottles at each stop, you never know when something may put you behind, a flat, whatever and the last thing you want to do is bonk because your dehydrated


Egg salad, I love eggs, I eat too many eggs.

I am with you, I like to eat, and I don't see how I will make it on energy bars. But how does an egg salad do in your jersey for 2 hours in July? I'm not fussy, I lied.....I'm fussy.

I am thinking two small sandwiches or wraps in my jersey, and the banana would be smart too.

I will stop for 5 min at every stop. I don't want any surprises and I don't want to bonk. Deep down, while I am training for hills, I simply can't go for any long hilly rides where I live......so that has me a little nervous.


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## riden1966

Rokh On said:


> ^this^
> 
> Plus starting at 9:30 a.m. on July 5th? Hot or cool where you are? Does the heat affect your riding?
> 
> I like pb&j bonk breaker bars or make my own peanut butter and strawberry sandwiches ... not on white bread. I cut them in quarters and stuff them into a Ziploc bag. I also love blueberry bagels with peanut butter. I would start hydrating the day before. Water may only work so far for you. I bring one bottle for water and one for Osmo. Osmo works really well for me with no ill affects on the stomach yet. I agree with the previous comments about not experimenting with gels and drinks on the ride. If you are going to try a hydration drink then try now and on multiple rides.
> 
> Remember what Eric says above. It's not a race. Relax, take a deep breath, and go with a casual pace you are comfortable with and enjoy yourself. Don't get caught up in the excitement at the start and the other riders at a pace that is not for you.
> 
> Have a great ride.


It's at the base of the mountains so it should be cool enough not to be a big factor.

I have warned over and over by more friends not to get caught up in the moment and push too hard early. 

Bagels are a good idea, I love bagels.

I plan to carry two 24 oz bottles. When I am hot, I really like some gatorade's, but I am fussy. I get tired of the taste of water though.


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## jmorgan

riden1966 said:


> It's at the base of the mountains so it should be cool enough not to be a big factor.
> 
> I have warned over and over by more friends not to get caught up in the moment and push too hard early.
> 
> Bagels are a good idea, I love bagels.
> 
> I plan to carry two 24 oz bottles. When I am hot, I really like some gatorade's, but I am fussy. I get tired of the taste of water though.


You want/need electrolytes. You don't need gatorade, but you need electrolytes, cramping on a century is about the worst thing and thats an easy way for most people to cramp (lacking electrolytes).


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## NJBiker72

Eat a good breakfast. I usually make an egg sandwich the night before and eat in the car on the way to the ride along with a cup of coffee. If the ride is close enough that you can ride to or won't have a long wait at the start line, I go with Oatmeal and an egg and a banana mixed in. Picked that up from an article by Ted King. 

As for the ride, be sure you are used to what they give you at rest stops. The ride is not the time to experiment. Personally I stuff a Fuel Bag on my top tube with Power Bar Gel Chews Cola flavored. Stick a few gels in my pockets too. I rarely eat the gels but like to have them as some rides are not as well supported as others. If I stop at the rest stops, I grab carbs. Bagels are my favorite but bananas and other fruit works. 

Don't overdue it. Graze don't pig out.


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## evs

I just looked at the website and the profile of your ride in July. Dang you sure have some good climbing the first half but it looks like they make you turn around and climb that sweet DH you just did right in the middle. LOL Haha crazy fun. I must say you will be riding in a great area. Hopefully the views on the route are great. But what a sweet second half. It should make all that climbing worth it. Well, just concentrate on spinning up those hills and if you have a steep road nearby, practice pedaling while standing. I like to actually click up 2 or 3 gears and stand and use my body weight to drop down on the pedals while breathing in deeply. It's more muscular than aerobic. It gives me a short break for when I sit back down and spin and go aerobic again. Take your time. Looks like fun but for that price I'd want a t-shirt.


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## ericm979

Doesn't look like a lot of climbing or any big climbs for the Cranmore. Taking 50 miles to climb 1500' will be barely noticeable. Of course there's small hills on the way but from the profile they look like rollers.

If you can't drink and eat while riding you're going too hard. It's ok to take a bite, stash it in your cheek to breathe for a bit, then chew. On centuries and double centuries I have brought rice muffins (from Allen Lim's book) and bagels with cream cheese. It may take me 20 miles to eat a bagel, a bite at a time.

Egg salad sandwiches would not survive well in a jersey pocket, are messy to eat and have too much fat for riding food (depending how heavy you went on the mayo). Fat is more difficult to digest than carbs. Some fat is ok for long rides where you're not going hard like in a race.

On a ride like this that's not got big climbs you'll be tempted to work in pacelines. Be careful to not go too hard as a result, and make sure you eat and drink. I grab my food when I am at the back, dropping back a bike length or two if I have to ride no hands or fuss with it for a while. Then get back in the rotation.


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## evs

Right, I looked at the profile and the pics of the mountains on the website and saw 5,479 and thought that was the total. I do 1500 on my 40 milers and there are no big climbs. Just rollers which isn't bad at all. He'll be fine. Sorry my bag.


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## riden1966

evs said:


> Right, I looked at the profile and the pics of the mountains on the website and saw 5,479 and thought that was the total. I do 1500 on my 40 milers and there are no big climbs. Just rollers which isn't bad at all. He'll be fine. Sorry my bag.


It does look a lot worse than it really is, and this prairie boy was nervous at first.

I am looking forward to seeing them, especially the Banff course (which is right by Canmore). I got an email from the race warning me that Tunnel Mountain at the beginning of the ride is tough.

Personally, I hate hills before I am warmed up, they are always so much tougher than.


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## Manning

Fig newtons (great carbs and potassium) and Nuun tablets (more electrolytes that aren't too sweet) are my current long ride staples.


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## Srode

My Century ride feeding looks like this:

PBJ 1-2 hours before start and at about the 1 to 1.5 hour mark I start the feeding plan as follows

1 Gel every 45 minutes which is about 120 calories
Gatorade spread out over the ride is about 4 water bottles of the 24 oz size. 

I would add more hydration the hotter it gets, but I start early, like 5am so am home before it get's too hot out.


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## robdamanii

All this heavy carb consumption makes me shake my head. But whatever....


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## NJBiker72

robdamanii said:


> All this heavy carb consumption makes me shake my head. But whatever....


Raw steak works but the blood gets all over my jersey.


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## Srode

robdamanii said:


> All this heavy carb consumption makes me shake my head. But whatever....


What does your plan look like? I'm open to ideas that will fit 1 jersey pocket. The others have cell phone, camera and misc stuff so I only have 1 pocket left for my calories which means Gels for me.


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## ericm979

For a double century earlier this year I brought four brown rice muffins, a whole wheat bagel with cream cheese, and three bottle sized packets of drink mix (skratch labs). At the mid point stop I picked up the same for the second hundred miles. I did not each much of the organizer's food- all I can remember is a pop tart at mile 165.

The brown rice muffin recipe is in Allen Lim's book. I make mine a little larger than his, 9 or 10 to a batch rather than 12. I use brown sugar instead of molasses for a lighter taste.

Gels make me ill after a while. I would not be able to do a double century on gels. I have had to drop out of races because I became ill from too much gel.

The above took 1 1/2 pockets as I can fit the phone in with the bagel. I felt like a beast of burden (I'm not large and I had a vest and arm warmers in the middle pocket) but I did not have to worry about the stops having food I can eat.


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## robdamanii

NJBiker72 said:


> Raw steak works but the blood gets all over my jersey.


Sarcasm is cute.

I'd wager than 95% of cyclists eat like crap. And that's probably a conservative estimate.

But whatever. Keep plowing through those Clif Bars and Shot Blocks...


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## riden1966

ericm979 said:


> For a double century earlier this year I brought four brown rice muffins, a whole wheat bagel with cream cheese, and three bottle sized packets of drink mix (skratch labs). At the mid point stop I picked up the same for the second hundred miles. I did not each much of the organizer's food- all I can remember is a pop tart at mile 165.
> 
> The brown rice muffin recipe is in Allen Lim's book. I make mine a little larger than his, 9 or 10 to a batch rather than 12. I use brown sugar instead of molasses for a lighter taste.
> 
> Gels make me ill after a while. I would not be able to do a double century on gels. I have had to drop out of races because I became ill from too much gel.
> 
> The above took 1 1/2 pockets as I can fit the phone in with the bagel. I felt like a beast of burden (I'm not large and I had a vest and arm warmers in the middle pocket) but I did not have to worry about the stops having food I can eat.


A pop tart, yuck. I'm kinda surprised they supplied that.


I went for a 75 KM training run today, that had some pretty good climbs in the middle. I intentionally went at 10:00 so I would be riding over lunch. I had a big breakfast and brought 3 Vector bars, I figured that would do me.....I was wrong and I found them very unsatisfying. 

I needed more than I had. Found myself craving fruit and real food. The truth is, I like to eat. 

Allen Lim's recipes are a great idea. Thanks guys.


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## Donn12

I disagree about trying new stuff but try it now! the last thing you want is to bonk....you will feel disoriented and want to lay down on the side of the road. You will keep going and feel like a prize fighter only to figure out you are crusing at 8mph!

I would order some NUUN tablets off amazon now. they are not too sweet and will keep cramps away. they just drop n your water bottles. I usually pass 10 or so out to pople cramping up towards the end of century rides. i would never do a ride over 30 miles without them. I also like cliff shot blocks...they are very mild. I can do a fast 75 mile ride solo with temps in the 90s and be fine. I would also get some halo sweat headbands....they are think enough to fit under your helmet but make a big difference.
I
do hate bonk busters, gels and other treats so try them now. all century rides I have done have enough stops that you won't have to eat on the bike....take a break every 20 miles, have a PB&J, stretch, fill your bottles etc and you will be fine. I also like the ritz cheese cracker packets for longer rides. salt is great!

best food ever on a ride were salted potatoes during the seagull century and tomato and mayonnaise sandwiches at mile 40 of the MOCO epic MTB ride.


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## ericm979

It's not something I eat often but the pop tart was delicious at the time. 

It's macronutrient profile is pretty good for a last stop pick-me-up on a double- not much fat and about half the carbs are from sugar. It's got too many processed food ingredients for me to want to make it a regular part of my diet but just here and there one isn't going to hurt.


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## Manning

On the pop tart theme....Special K has some "crisps" that are basically miniature pop tarts. Tasty, and the right size for riding.


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## 9W9W

The [email protected] are you guys eating out there? Pop tarts!? Special K crisps? WTF!? 

Someone shared this link with me, it was a very informative fifty minutes: Nutrition for Cycling: Fueling Your Human Powered Vehicle - YouTube


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## NJBiker72

robdamanii said:


> Sarcasm is cute.
> 
> I'd wager than 95% of cyclists eat like crap. And that's probably a conservative estimate.
> 
> But whatever. Keep plowing through those Clif Bars and Shot Blocks...


I agree many eat too much, but I am curious what you eat if you avoid carbs on the bike. 

I prefer whole foods to gels but do some of both depending on the ride and my mood. But by whole foods, they are still carbs, bananas, bagels, croissants. 

I avoid carbs off the bike mostly but nuts and heavy foods don't sit well for me on the bike.


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## Manning

9W9W said:


> The [email protected] are you guys eating out there? Pop tarts!? Special K crisps? WTF!?
> 
> Someone shared this link with me, it was a very informative fifty minutes: Nutrition for Cycling: Fueling Your Human Powered Vehicle - YouTube


Just watched that. Pretty basic stuff. I don't see where she condemns pop tarts. Carbs are carbs. I feel the same energy "regain" from gels, fig newtons or pop tarts. Gels just do it more quickly, and for much higher co$t.


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## Trek_5200

riden1966 said:


> So I am signed up for my first century July 5th and plan to do two this summer.
> 
> So I was reading the details of the day and the race is supported and offers a light breakfast(that I won't be attending) and nutritional supplements plus water and powerade. But states it does not provide main meals of the day (paraphrasing).
> 
> The race starts at 9:30 and I hope to be done at 3:00. I usually arrange long rides around meals (leave after lunch) , and when I am done, I am starving.
> 
> Do you think that I will need to make any special food arrangements when I am going to be skipping lunch?


100 miles can seem worse than it is, but you do need to eat. I would suggest eating a good pasta dinner the nite before and bringing with you some trail mix and a banana or two, along with at two bottles of water or a camel back(it could be quite hot and you'll want to drink regularly. As for the food, you'll want to eat every two hours.


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## riden1966

Trek_5200 said:


> 100 miles can seem worse than it is, but you do need to eat. I would suggest eating a good pasta dinner the nite before and bringing with you some trail mix and a banana or two, along with at two bottles of water or a camel back(it could be quite hot and you'll want to drink regularly. As for the food, you'll want to eat every two hours.


2 hours? I was thinking every hour, or every rest stop.


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## robdamanii

NJBiker72 said:


> I agree many eat too much, but I am curious what you eat if you avoid carbs on the bike.
> 
> I prefer whole foods to gels but do some of both depending on the ride and my mood. But by whole foods, they are still carbs, bananas, bagels, croissants.
> 
> I avoid carbs off the bike mostly but nuts and heavy foods don't sit well for me on the bike.


It's not about "avoiding carbs on the bike" it's about using them as you need them.

Your average cyclist is eating around 250 calories per hour, mostly sugary garbage.

You want to know what my diet is like? Mostly fat. 65% fat (on any given day.) 20% protein. 15% carbs. Between 100 and 150 g carbs/day. Most patients I see are eating upwards of 300-400g of carbs per day. As Dr. Nick from the Simpsons said "That's your window to weight gain."

I do not eat bagels. Nor croissants. Nor fig newtons. None of that crap. No bananas either unless I'm desperate.

My pre-race bottles are very specific blends of minerals and non-fructose sugars (since fructose upregulates glucose phosphorylation in the liver, sucking glucose OUT of the blood stream, where it's needed in an exercise capacity, and that banana, those bagels, that croissant is generally laden with some variety of fructose, either naturally or through HFCS) and my racing bottles contain a teaspoon of Hammer Gel (maltodextrin) and one scoop of Skratch Labs daily hydration mix PER HOUR. That's about 15ish grams of carbs per hour, or 60 calories.

Nothing more. 

Racing doesn't need more than that (you've got plenty of stored glycogen for hard efforts already, and more is spared by adapting to a fatty acid burning metabolism.)

Read about fed state here, and how carb consumption causes insulin release, shoving glucose into the liver first (and again, out of circulation where it would be beneficial). Also note that it is blocked by cortisol (released during aerobic exercise, and has the function of liberating fatty acids and amino acids from cells) so you have a decrease in the effectiveness of either, resulting in poor fatty acid utilization and increased insulin production to compete with cortisol. Not only that, insulin activates fatty acid uptake by white adipose tissue from VLDLs in the blood stream, further robbing your body of potential energy. I personally don't want insulin to spike, period. A slow drip carbohydrate is perfectly fine with me and agrees with my metabolism very well.

Training days are generally nothing but a Bulletproof coffee in the morning prior to riding, maybe a couple eggs with some ham steak if it's a weekend training ride. 

Longer rides are different. If I'm doing something extremely long, I'll use a slow release sugar like a Ucan superstarch to continually release into the blood as opposed to getting a huge shot of carbs, spiking insulin and then dropping it off and "bonking."

The notion that we need to load up with 6-7g/pound of carbs the day before is both ludicrous and incorrect: a lot of that "research" comes out of the Gatorade sport science institute which *gasp* is designed to sell the need for gatorade. 

In fact, you can peruse this: Skeletal muscle adaptation and performance responses to once a day versus twice every second day endurance training regimens | Journal of Applied Physiology and find a "low glycogen diet" (essentially glycogen depleted by 2/day training bouts) led to a 2% increase in power output during a 60 minute TT effort over 3 weeks (and if you think 2% is not significant, then you haven't raced too long) OVER a high carbohydrate diet. And this doesn't take into account the physiological adaptations of eating a moderately low carb diet in the first place, over a longer term of adaptation.

I'm not advocating you cut down to <50g carbs/day, nor am I advocating that you stop eating them on the bike. However I'm advocating that there's a HUGE number of cyclists with a persistent beer gut, and your body carries upwards of 35,000 calories of energy stored in fat, so why the hell not use it? If you're eating 250 calories per hour on the bike, there's something wrong with your diet in general, not in your fueling during activity. 

But whatever, you pick your own poison. I prefer not to burn sugar all day, spike and dip insulin, risk "the bonk", or deal with the free radical damage that's involved in constant glycolysis during exercise. I prefer to burn off the spare tire I had instead of adding to it. I prefer the cleaner aerobic fatty acid metabolism and a shift towards fatty acid metabolism at higher energy intensities. I prefer the easier and quicker recovery that comes from burning fat to a higher percentage of VO2 max than from burning carbs all day.

But again, you pick your poison. Don't knock it until you try it. I did. I spent YEARS following the same bullsh*t that was almost universally accepted as "what to fuel with." A diet change (it was NOT easy, by any matter of means, and regulating cortisol through stress management and diet made a huge part of that change easier) and I can honestly say I've never felt better in my life, both on or off the bike. I've never had better biomarkers, from cholesterol to hormones. I've never ridden stronger or faster. And I never in a million years imagined I could train on coffee, butter and coconut oil, but it's very possible and very powerful.

YMMV. Here's something else you can read about if you care to.


----------



## robdamanii

Manning said:


> Just watched that. Pretty basic stuff. I don't see where she condemns pop tarts. Carbs are carbs. I feel the same energy "regain" from gels, fig newtons or pop tarts. Gels just do it more quickly, and for much higher co$t.


Carbs are not "carbs." Glucose is different than fructose than galactose than sucralose than sucrose than ribose than....

You get my point. They are all metabolized a little differently.

That's exactly what's wrong with nutrition today. People have been idiotized into believing that "it's all about the calories" or that "a calorie is a calorie" or that "a carb is a carb." It's about putting crap into your body and getting crap back out.


----------



## Manning

robdamanii said:


> Carbs are not "carbs." Glucose is different than fructose than galactose than sucralose than sucrose than ribose than....
> 
> You get my point. They are all metabolized a little differently.
> 
> That's exactly what's wrong with nutrition today. People have been idiotized into believing that "it's all about the calories" or that "a calorie is a calorie" or that "a carb is a carb." It's about putting crap into your body and getting crap back out.


So, a calorie of sucrose doesn't provide the same energy as a calorie of one of the other 'ose's? How so?


----------



## NJBiker72

robdamanii said:


> It's not about "avoiding carbs on the bike" it's about using them as you need them.
> 
> Your average cyclist is eating around 250 calories per hour, mostly sugary garbage.
> 
> You want to know what my diet is like? Mostly fat. 65% fat (on any given day.) 20% protein. 15% carbs. Between 100 and 150 g carbs/day. Most patients I see are eating upwards of 300-400g of carbs per day. As Dr. Nick from the Simpsons said "That's your window to weight gain."
> 
> I do not eat bagels. Nor croissants. Nor fig newtons. None of that crap. No bananas either unless I'm desperate.
> 
> My pre-race bottles are very specific blends of minerals and non-fructose sugars (since fructose upregulates glucose phosphorylation in the liver, sucking glucose OUT of the blood stream, where it's needed in an exercise capacity, and that banana, those bagels, that croissant is generally laden with some variety of fructose, either naturally or through HFCS) and my racing bottles contain a teaspoon of Hammer Gel (maltodextrin) and one scoop of Skratch Labs daily hydration mix PER HOUR. That's about 15ish grams of carbs per hour, or 60 calories.
> 
> Nothing more.
> 
> Racing doesn't need more than that (you've got plenty of stored glycogen for hard efforts already, and more is spared by adapting to a fatty acid burning metabolism.)
> 
> Read about fed state here, and how carb consumption causes insulin release, shoving glucose into the liver first (and again, out of circulation where it would be beneficial). Also note that it is blocked by cortisol (released during aerobic exercise, and has the function of liberating fatty acids and amino acids from cells) so you have a decrease in the effectiveness of either, resulting in poor fatty acid utilization and increased insulin production to compete with cortisol. Not only that, insulin activates fatty acid uptake by white adipose tissue from VLDLs in the blood stream, further robbing your body of potential energy. I personally don't want insulin to spike, period. A slow drip carbohydrate is perfectly fine with me and agrees with my metabolism very well.
> 
> Training days are generally nothing but a Bulletproof coffee in the morning prior to riding, maybe a couple eggs with some ham steak if it's a weekend training ride.
> 
> Longer rides are different. If I'm doing something extremely long, I'll use a slow release sugar like a Ucan superstarch to continually release into the blood as opposed to getting a huge shot of carbs, spiking insulin and then dropping it off and "bonking."
> 
> The notion that we need to load up with 6-7g/pound of carbs the day before is both ludicrous and incorrect: a lot of that "research" comes out of the Gatorade sport science institute which *gasp* is designed to sell the need for gatorade.
> 
> In fact, you can peruse this: Skeletal muscle adaptation and performance responses to once a day versus twice every second day endurance training regimens | Journal of Applied Physiology and find a "low glycogen diet" (essentially glycogen depleted by 2/day training bouts) led to a 2% increase in power output during a 60 minute TT effort over 3 weeks (and if you think 2% is not significant, then you haven't raced too long) OVER a high carbohydrate diet. And this doesn't take into account the physiological adaptations of eating a moderately low carb diet in the first place, over a longer term of adaptation.
> 
> I'm not advocating you cut down to <50g carbs/day, nor am I advocating that you stop eating them on the bike. However I'm advocating that there's a HUGE number of cyclists with a persistent beer gut, and your body carries upwards of 35,000 calories of energy stored in fat, so why the hell not use it? If you're eating 250 calories per hour on the bike, there's something wrong with your diet in general, not in your fueling during activity.
> 
> But whatever, you pick your own poison. I prefer not to burn sugar all day, spike and dip insulin, risk "the bonk", or deal with the free radical damage that's involved in constant glycolysis during exercise. I prefer to burn off the spare tire I had instead of adding to it. I prefer the cleaner aerobic fatty acid metabolism and a shift towards fatty acid metabolism at higher energy intensities. I prefer the easier and quicker recovery that comes from burning fat to a higher percentage of VO2 max than from burning carbs all day.
> 
> But again, you pick your poison. Don't knock it until you try it. I did. I spent YEARS following the same bullsh*t that was almost universally accepted as "what to fuel with." A diet change (it was NOT easy, by any matter of means, and regulating cortisol through stress management and diet made a huge part of that change easier) and I can honestly say I've never felt better in my life, both on or off the bike. I've never had better biomarkers, from cholesterol to hormones. I've never ridden stronger or faster. And I never in a million years imagined I could train on coffee, butter and coconut oil, but it's very possible and very powerful.
> 
> YMMV. Here's something else you can read about if you care to.


Intersting. Will have to read into it, but really not a fan of eating just chemicals. For one, it is just not enjoyable. As for burning fat, sure I want to. I don't eat before my early am rides on weekdays. 

But to perform at max capacity, carbs help. I figure at 5'11", 165 I am probably burning 700 - 800 per hour on the bike. Taking in 100 - 200 calories per hour is a small price to pay to still perform.


----------



## Trek_5200

NJBiker72 said:


> Intersting. Will have to read into it, but really not a fan of eating just chemicals. For one, it is just not enjoyable. As for burning fat, sure I want to. I don't eat before my early am rides on weekdays.
> 
> But to perform at max capacity, carbs help. I figure at 5'11", 165 I am probably burning 700 - 800 per hour on the bike. Taking in 100 - 200 calories per hour is a small price to pay to still perform.


Agree on not eating chemicals. I also see no reason to ingest glucose, sucrose or any other ose, or goo if you've been eating properly the day and morning before. Again, just have a good pasta meal the nite before, some oats for breakfast and eat throught the day. Ingesting sugar is what you might do if you are bonking and allowed your blood sugar level dropped too much. Eating complex carbs throughout the day should keep your energy levels where they should be. Popping sugar sounds wrong to me, as it gets metabolized way too fast.


----------



## NJBiker72

Trek_5200 said:


> Agree on not eating chemicals. I also see no reason to ingest glucose, sucrose or any other ose, or goo if you've been eating properly the day and morning before. Again, just have a good pasta meal the nite before, some oats for breakfast and eat throught the day. Ingesting sugar is what you might do if you are bonking and allowed your blood sugar level dropped too much. Eating complex carbs throughout the day should keep your energy levels where they should be. Popping sugar sounds wrong to me, as it gets metabolized way too fast.


Very much against carb loading. Pasta the night before is just an excuse to pig out in my opinion. Eat normally the night before and no alcohol. I don't drink for two days before a really big event. 

Gels and quick sugars can definitely give you a quick boost. But I question the need to go heavy on them. I like gel chews because they are easy. I carry gels if I need a quick burst of carbs to avoid bonking or if I don't find food, they are real easy to carry. But can't just eat those.


----------



## Trek_5200

NJBiker72 said:


> Very much against carb loading. Pasta the night before is just an excuse to pig out in my opinion. Eat normally the night before and no alcohol. I don't drink for two days before a really big event.
> 
> Gels and quick sugars can definitely give you a quick boost. But I question the need to go heavy on them. I like gel chews because they are easy. I carry gels if I need a quick burst of carbs to avoid bonking or if I don't find food, they are real easy to carry. But can't just eat those.



I'll disagree with you and leave it at that. Nobody said to pig-out, but you do want your muscles full of glycogen to do what they are being tasked with.


----------



## robdamanii

Trek_5200 said:


> I'll disagree with you and leave it at that. Nobody said to pig-out, but you do want your muscles full of glycogen to do what they are being tasked with.


So you think you deplete glycogen with your daily activities to the point where you need to shove in a bunch of pasta to "load" it back up?


----------



## robdamanii

NJBiker72 said:


> Intersting. Will have to read into it, but really not a fan of eating just chemicals. For one, it is just not enjoyable. As for burning fat, sure I want to. I don't eat before my early am rides on weekdays.
> 
> But to perform at max capacity, carbs help. I figure at 5'11", 165 I am probably burning 700 - 800 per hour on the bike. Taking in 100 - 200 calories per hour is a small price to pay to still perform.


5'10", 150lbs.

55 minute circuit race yesterday = IF .952 and 612kJ of work (essentially 612 calories.)

I'd rethink the amount of calories you're burning and what you're eating. Shoving in a bagel while riding will basically send a significant amount of glucose into de-novo lipogenesis, adding pounds DESPITE the caloric deficit. 

Nutrition is far more complicated than simply calories in < calories out. Nutrient timing, nutrient density, biochemistry of substrate metabolism, etc etc. 

And just FTR: that 55 minute race was done with only 15 grams of carbs for the entire morning, including the race. So my n=1 experiment is simply that yes, you can race and hang in a difficult race without eating a bunch of sugar.


Also, where did I suggest "just eating chemicals?" Please cite. Chemicals are one of the few things I tend to avoid like the plague (and big hint, most of those pastries, newtons etc are full of chemicals.)


----------



## robdamanii

Manning said:


> So, a calorie of sucrose doesn't provide the same energy as a calorie of one of the other 'ose's? How so?


Does HFCS provide the same nutritional value as simple glucose?

Because technically, they're both carbs, with the same "caloric density."

Or do you not even care how they are metabolized and what they do when they're metabolized?



Trek_5200 said:


> Agree on not eating chemicals. I also see no reason to ingest glucose, sucrose or any other ose, or goo if you've been eating properly the day and morning before. Again, just have a good pasta meal the nite before, some oats for breakfast and eat throught the day. Ingesting sugar is what you might do if you are bonking and allowed your blood sugar level dropped too much. Eating complex carbs throughout the day should keep your energy levels where they should be. Popping sugar sounds wrong to me, as it gets metabolized way too fast.


Is that so? Why do you get a "blood sugar level drop" if you're "appropriately fueled?"

I hate to tell you, if you load on sugar, your body will spike insulin to get it out of the blood stream. It will overcompensate to protect your body, then you get a dip in blood sugar. Then you need more sugar. More insulin. More sugar. More insulin.

Do you really think that pattern is a good one to be stuck in?

Furthermore, if you look at the biochemistry and research (simplified):
Excessive carb intake = liver glycogen maxing out quickly, remaining sugar is shoved into muscle glycogen.
Anything left is fed to the TCA cycle
Citric acid overflows from TCA, gets fed into de-novo lipogenesis, creating palmitic acid
Palmitic acid in bloodstream turns on insulin resistance in muscles (glucose sparing evolution to ensure nervous system's glucose needs are met)
More insulin is released to shove glucose into TCA cycle, more palmitic acid created, more resistance, ad nauseum.
Net result (over many years of this pattern) = hyperglycemia, hyperinsulinemia, insulin resistance.

Any guesses on what that is?

Worth a read here: DiabetesStudy

"Paleo" eating works.


----------



## NJBiker72

robdamanii said:


> 5'10", 150lbs.
> 
> 55 minute circuit race yesterday = IF .952 and 612kJ of work (essentially 612 calories.)
> 
> I'd rethink the amount of calories you're burning and what you're eating. Shoving in a bagel while riding will basically send a significant amount of glucose into de-novo lipogenesis, adding pounds DESPITE the caloric deficit.
> 
> Nutrition is far more complicated than simply calories in < calories out. Nutrient timing, nutrient density, biochemistry of substrate metabolism, etc etc.
> 
> And just FTR: that 55 minute race was done with only 15 grams of carbs for the entire morning, including the race. So my n=1 experiment is simply that yes, you can race and hang in a difficult race without eating a bunch of sugar.
> 
> 
> Also, where did I suggest "just eating chemicals?" Please cite. Chemicals are one of the few things I tend to avoid like the plague (and big hint, most of those pastries, newtons etc are full of chemicals.)


You miss the point. A bagel tastes a lot better than a dextrose chemical bio chemical mix. 

Not saying it is ideal but it gives a bit of energy. Goimg on 42 and only been seriously riding for 5 years. Sure, I could be better with better nutrition. Frankly I am enjoying this rye now.


----------



## Trek_5200

robdamanii said:


> 5'10", 150lbs.
> 
> 55 minute circuit race yesterday = IF .952 and 612kJ of work (essentially 612 calories.)
> 
> I'd rethink the amount of calories you're burning and what you're eating. Shoving in a bagel while riding will basically send a significant amount of glucose into de-novo lipogenesis, adding pounds DESPITE the caloric deficit.
> 
> Nutrition is far more complicated than simply calories in < calories out. Nutrient timing, nutrient density, biochemistry of substrate metabolism, etc etc.
> 
> And just FTR: that 55 minute race was done with only 15 grams of carbs for the entire morning, including the race. So my n=1 experiment is simply that yes, you can race and hang in a difficult race without eating a bunch of sugar.
> 
> 
> Also, where did I suggest "just eating chemicals?" Please cite. Chemicals are one of the few things I tend to avoid like the plague (and big hint, most of those pastries, newtons etc are full of chemicals.)


At the Gran Fondo NY. They passed out quarter portions of bagels with PBJ on them. Prefer this over popping a tube of glucose goo in my mouth.


----------



## robdamanii

NJBiker72 said:


> You miss the point. A bagel tastes a lot better than a dextrose chemical bio chemical mix.
> 
> Not saying it is ideal but it gives a bit of energy. Goimg on 42 and only been seriously riding for 5 years. Sure, I could be better with better nutrition. Frankly I am enjoying this rye now.


Who said there's much taste in a scoop of Skratch and a teaspoon of huckleberry hammer gel?

And of course a bagel tastes good: it stimulates reward centers in the brain (likely nucleus accumbens.) Sugar is more addictive than cocaine. Is Sugar More Addictive Than Cocaine?

Sure you could ride better with better nutrition, but you could also live longer, live healthier and reduce your risk of diabetes and cancer.

But if that bagel is worth that, cool. I'm pointing out that the idea of eating a diet consisting of 50%+ carbs (as recommended by the USDA and their monsanto subsidiaries) is ludicrous and in direct contention with how our bodies are designed to process macro-nutrients. One only needs to look at the data on neolithic disease incidence to understand that there's something fundamentally wrong with us today, and it's essentially what we're putting in our bodies.


----------



## robdamanii

Trek_5200 said:


> At the Gran Fondo NY. They passed out quarter portions of bagels with PBJ on them. Prefer this over popping a tube of glucose goo in my mouth.


Your point? Does "preferring it" make it biochemically better for you?


----------



## Trek_5200

What to Eat Before a Long Bike Ride | LIVESTRONG.COM


----------



## Donn12

robdamanii said:


> So you think you deplete glycogen with your daily activities to the point where you need to shove in a bunch of pasta to "load" it back up?



robdamanii - I am interested but a little uneducated in the food department. I am starting to try to minimize my carbs....what does a typical lunch and dinner look like? by high fat...lots of steak?


----------



## robdamanii

Trek_5200 said:


> What to Eat Before a Long Bike Ride | LIVESTRONG.COM


You think I'm taking nutrition advice from Livestrong.com? A for-profit site run by Demand Media?

But, to counter that argument, yes carbs are necessary for SOME parts of exercise. Subthreshold activity can be generally fueled by fatty acid metabolism (exceptions are neural tissue), so check this out: Joe Friel - Becoming a Better Fat Burner

Secondly, you carry about 2000 calories of carbohydrate in glycogen in your body already (Carbohydrate | Human Sciences). So to think you will burn through this when MOST of your ride is fatty acid fueled is outrageous.

Thirdly, if your body is adapted to run on sugar, it will constantly need sugar to function. Glucose dependent tissues (nervous tissue) can be adapted to run mostly on ketones. KETONES SUPPRESS BRAIN GLUCOSE CONSUMPTION Also see Friel's article in part 1.



Howabout you find me some scientific evidence. 

If you can be bothered to read, try the study I posted last page. Here it is again for you so you don't have to go hunting. Skeletal muscle adaptation and performance responses to once a day versus twice every second day endurance training regimens | Journal of Applied Physiology

Here's an interesting take on the whole thing, from a cyclist himself. High Fat Diets for Cyclists ? Part One of Six | THAT PALEO GUY


Lastly, look around your average fondo. How many beer guts do you see?

Look around your average crossfit gym. How many beer guts do you see?

Here's a little clue: endurance exercise, combined with the "endurance exercise diet" make you fat. Bottom line. Deny it if you want, but those crossfit guys don't get fat on a slab of steak with vegetables and a sweet potato every night.


----------



## MMsRepBike

robdamanii said:


> "Paleo" eating works.


Have fun with your heart disease.


----------



## NJBiker72

robdamanii said:


> Who said there's much taste in a scoop of Skratch and a teaspoon of huckleberry hammer gel?
> 
> And of course a bagel tastes good: it stimulates reward centers in the brain (likely nucleus accumbens.) Sugar is more addictive than cocaine. Is Sugar More Addictive Than Cocaine?
> 
> Sure you could ride better with better nutrition, but you could also live longer, live healthier and reduce your risk of diabetes and cancer.
> 
> But if that bagel is worth that, cool. I'm pointing out that the idea of eating a diet consisting of 50%+ carbs (as recommended by the USDA and their monsanto subsidiaries) is ludicrous and in direct contention with how our bodies are designed to process macro-nutrients. One only needs to look at the data on neolithic disease incidence to understand that there's something fundamentally wrong with us today, and it's essentially what we're putting in our bodies.


Eating chemicals will not help you live long either. Knpw plenty of guys that tried that. Destroys the systems. Some of those guys can't eay anything but turkey sandwiches these en days. Eat natural. Far bettter for you in the long run.


----------



## deburn

robdamanii said:


> 5'10", 150lbs.
> 
> 55 minute circuit race yesterday = IF .952 and 612kJ of work (essentially 612 calories.)
> 
> I'd rethink the amount of calories you're burning and what you're eating. Shoving in a bagel while riding will basically send a significant amount of glucose into de-novo lipogenesis, adding pounds DESPITE the caloric deficit.
> 
> Nutrition is far more complicated than simply calories in < calories out. Nutrient timing, nutrient density, biochemistry of substrate metabolism, etc etc.
> 
> And just FTR: that 55 minute race was done with only 15 grams of carbs for the entire morning, including the race. So my n=1 experiment is simply that yes, you can race and hang in a difficult race without eating a bunch of sugar.
> 
> 
> Also, where did I suggest "just eating chemicals?" Please cite. Chemicals are one of the few things I tend to avoid like the plague (and big hint, most of those pastries, newtons etc are full of chemicals.)


Rob, thanks for the detailed replies and links. I saved them to read in detail. I just started riding what for me are long rides (did 40 miles today which is my longest) and very interested in riding longer. I also eat paleo mostly, and was trying to figure out what to eat conveniently on long rides


----------



## robdamanii

Donn12 said:


> robdamanii - I am interested but a little uneducated in the food department. I am starting to try to minimize my carbs....what does a typical lunch and dinner look like? by high fat...lots of steak?


Here's a great resource on it:
The Paleo Diet for Athletes: The Ancient Nutritional Formula for Peak Athletic Performance: Loren Cordain, Joe Friel: 9781609619176: Amazon.com: Books
Also check out Robb Wolf: Home

Here's my daily diet template:

Breakfast (5am):
"Latte" with coffee, 2tbsp grass fed butter, 2tbsp MCT oil, dash of cinnamon

Lunch (12pm):
1/2 to 1 pound of some kind of meat and green vegetables (broccoli, green beans, etc). Large side salad with MCT oil and cider vinegar, herbs, etc.
OR
1/2 to 1 pound of meat, with all rendered fat over a large bed of greens/spinach/kale/chard/etc. Tuber vegetable on the side.

Dinner (7PM):
Beef, chicken, fish, pork. 4-6 ounces. Green vegetables. Grass fed butter. Sweet potato or other starchy tuber vegetable.

Snacks:
Nuts, 1-2 pieces of organic fruit, full fat grass fed dairy (because I can tolerate it well), chia seeds, a few organic berries, a few ounces of hard/aged cheese, fermented foods like sauerkraut or kimchi, hard boiled eggs, etc.

Dinner can sometimes include eggs, ham, bacon, etc. All organic/grassfed.

Very little grains (carbs come from fruit and/or vegetables or tubers), not much dairy.

Supplement with 5-7 grams of omega 3/day, 5000IU vitamin D3/day. 300mg magnesium before bed with 100 mg zinc, 50 mg selenium.


----------



## robdamanii

NJBiker72 said:


> Eating chemicals will not help you live long either. Knpw plenty of guys that tried that. Destroys the systems. Some of those guys can't eay anything but turkey sandwiches these en days. Eat natural. Far bettter for you in the long run.


Full of hormones and corn fed? Fantastic. I'll take my 2 grams of dextrose 3-4 times per week, since that's FAR below the concentration causing health issues. Yet you'll enjoy your hormone laden, grass fed turkey sandwich on GMO bread that promotes immune suppression and potentially leaky gut?

C'mon man, you're smarter than that. I know you are.


----------



## robdamanii

MMsRepBike said:


> Have fun with your heart disease.


My cholesterol, ApoLipoB and hormone numbers state otherwise, but thanks for playing. Enjoy losing a foot to diabetes.


----------



## Manning

Wow, I'll be taking a stick of butter on my next ride instead of the evil CHO's.


----------



## robdamanii

Manning said:


> Wow, I'll be taking a stick of butter on my next ride instead of the evil CHO's.


Put it in your coffee an hour before. 


I realize your sarcasm, and I answer it with stern amusement.


----------



## riden1966

robdamanii

Why do you believe that people bonk in endurance events? Sounds like you are saying we can store enough fuel, do you believe bonking is mental?


----------



## mikerp

I'm shaking my head after reading this thread.
It's a Century, not RAAM. It's a bike ride, not a fine dining experience. The OP claims to be doing longer rides already, not sure why he's even asking for advice as he let's everyone know what he doesn't like, seems he should be able to rule things out based on that.


----------



## evs

This is the endurance forum. A 55 minute race really doesn't fall in to the endurance category. We are comparing a short 55 min. race which you only really need a bottle of water to do to the OPs ? for a century. It's apples and oranges.


----------



## Neb

robdamanii said:


> In fact, you can peruse this: Skeletal muscle adaptation and performance responses to once a day versus twice every second day endurance training regimens | Journal of Applied Physiology and find a "low glycogen diet" (essentially glycogen depleted by 2/day training bouts) led to a 2% increase in power output during a 60 minute TT effort over 3 weeks (and if you think 2% is not significant, then you haven't raced too long) OVER a high carbohydrate diet. And this doesn't take into account the physiological adaptations of eating a moderately low carb diet in the first place, over a longer term of adaptation.


If you're going to quote percentages you should use the full figures. They show a delta of 10.2 +/- 3.1% for the high glycogen store group and 12.2 +/- 2.3% for the low glycogen store group. Your quoted 2% increase in power is in fact within the error margins....which is why the study said this in their discussion:



> Nevertheless, despite metabolic and enzymatic changes resulting in an enhanced training adaptation profile after twice every second day “low-glycogen” training, *we were unable to detect a clear advantage to endurance performance compared with when subjects undertook daily workouts with normal glycogen stores.*


 (emphasis mine)

If you're shooting for a study supporting your opinion, I think you should choose a different one...


----------



## ScooterDobs

Manning said:


> Fig newtons (great carbs and potassium) and Nuun tablets (more electrolytes that aren't too sweet) are my current long ride staples.


Newtons work well for me, too. 55 calories per Newton. I do fine on Gatorade or Powerade as long as it's diluted about 50%. I think Nuun tastes like goat whiz but it also works for me without dilution.


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## Donn12

ScooterDobs said:


> Newtons work well for me, too. 55 calories per Newton. I do fine on Gatorade or Powerade as long as it's diluted about 50%. I think Nuun tastes like goat whiz but it also works for me without dilution.


I had some nasty flavored Nuun tablets - maybe berry?. And then I found strawberry lemonade , lemonade and grape. I love them because they are not too sweet


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## robdamanii

riden1966 said:


> robdamanii
> 
> Why do you believe that people bonk in endurance events? Sounds like you are saying we can store enough fuel, do you believe bonking is mental?


Bonking is not completely well understood: it could be a fatigue of the nervous system, it could be significant drop in blood sugar concentration, it could be complete exhaustion of carbohydrate stores. If you're riding a stage race with 100 mile stages each day for three weeks straight, it's possible that recovery was compromised enough that you're not starting with a full tank anyway.

"Bonking" in other circumstances may be heat related, may be (as I stated) blood sugar drop, may be central governor. Could be plenty of things.

My guess, from the research is it's a combination of low blood sugar (not stored glycogen per se, but liberated glucose in the blood) and neural/central governor fatigue.



evs said:


> This is the endurance forum. A 55 minute race really doesn't fall in to the endurance category. We are comparing a short 55 min. race which you only really need a bottle of water to do to the OPs ? for a century. It's apples and oranges.


So you're telling me physiology changes based on the forum?

That's news to me.


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## bigjohnla

Like all threads this one got a little off kilter. I was the first to reply and said bring stuff that is easy to deal with like granola bars and energy gels that you can put in your jersey. I didn't say ONLY eat that. I also didn't say stuff your gut! Typically, I like to keep a few items on hand at all times. Some times in an event the rest stops can be so crowded it takes a good while to resupply. Plus the congestion can get down right dangerous. I was invloved in a crash at a resstop at last year's Hotter n Hell. I like to keep moving. 5 minutes at a rest stop tops. If I roll up and there is pandemonium at a rest stop, I will grab a quick refill on the water bottles and head on. That's where carrying a few things with you comes in handy. If I do have time for a full stop, my preference is something like a PB&J or ham sandwich, some fruit, chilled orange slices, bananas, etc.


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## bike2kayak

I drank a 1/2 bottle of wine on Friday and could only muster a 1/2 century on Saturday. This weekend I'm going to try a full bottle of wine to ride a full century. Perfect correlation.


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## Guod

It seems as though there's WAY too much thought going into this ride...

In all fairness to robdamanii, what you're suggesting is more of a lifestyle than an approach to a single event. Though, it does work for some people, it isn't for everyone. Some people can be lean and healthy just by not overindulging and exercising regularly.

To the OP, take foods that won't sit on your stomach and be sure to hydrate. That's about it. Feel free to have a beer or two the night before, it won't kill you and you'll still finish your ride. Have fun for god's sake... That's the whole point of this, isn't it? You're not getting paid, in fact, you probably paid to ride the century.


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## aclinjury

robdamanii said:


> 5'10", 150lbs.
> 
> 55 minute circuit race yesterday = IF .952 and 612kJ of work (essentially 612 calories.)
> 
> I'd rethink the amount of calories you're burning and what you're eating. Shoving in a bagel while riding will basically send a significant amount of glucose into de-novo lipogenesis, adding pounds DESPITE the caloric deficit.
> 
> Nutrition is far more complicated than simply calories in < calories out. Nutrient timing, nutrient density, biochemistry of substrate metabolism, etc etc.
> 
> And just FTR: that 55 minute race was done with only 15 grams of carbs for the entire morning, including the race. So my n=1 experiment is simply that yes, you can race and hang in a difficult race without eating a bunch of sugar.
> 
> 
> Also, where did I suggest "just eating chemicals?" Please cite. Chemicals are one of the few things I tend to avoid like the plague (and big hint, most of those pastries, newtons etc are full of chemicals.)


First of all, the low-carb diet seems to be working for your body under your current state of exercise and energy demand. Glad it's working for you because you sound passionate about spreading it. It appears to be a mix of Atkins, keto, and paleo.

But.. the diet you are doing is not some magical diet nor is it the only diet to be healthy. I'm not totally convinced that eating a high amount of animal product (butter and meat) is a healthy thing in the long run. My reasoning is simple, the higher an organism is on the foodchain, the more toxicity it'll likely to accumulate over its lifetime. And if we eat them, then well we're also eating its toxicity. The other thing about eating meat is, it doesn't give you much antioxidants or vitamins unless you consume meat raw, like the Eskimos consume it. Cooked meat, regardless if it's "organic", destroy many of the ancillary nutrients and therefore benefits of eating raw meat. And eating meat or fat that's been processed like fried or bbq'ed... is not good and may even be harmful to your body too as the process of frying and bbq'ing creates free radicals.

I believe the dietary question is bigger then an issue of "fat/meat versus sugar". There is a balance point. For a long time, Americans have been fed processed sugar (one extreme end), and now suddenly we're reverting to fat (another extreme). When I see swing from on extreme, I always look at it with extreme suspision. Sugar is not bad unless you consume them excessively, and consume them in their unnatural (processed state). I believe the same thing can be said of meat and fat. Meat and fat is good if you consume them in their natural state. But as soon as you cook them, or process them in anyway, then it becomes sort of like process sugar (but probably not close as bad as process sugar). Would a person be healthy if he consumes 1 pound of fat for breakfast, 1 pound of meat for lunch, and 1 pound of meat for dinner, and never consume any other carbohydrate product? I highly doubt it.

The human body can cope with carbohydrates. The present of a complex carbohydrate metabolism system (or many subsystems, if you prefer) in our body is an evolutionary testimony that our body has evolved to consum carbs, just as it has evolved to consume meat. So to say that carb is bad to the body is nonsense, and goes against the evolutionary evidence in our physiology. What is bad is excessive carb, but this is also true for excessive fat or meat too.

So the issue may not be so much about fat versus sugar, but the issue may be about a bad American diet. Americans are simply eating too much of a bad thing. And as other cultures and ethnicities around the globe adopt the "fast food" culture of America, they too are becoming sick and unhealthy.

This debate can go on and on, and so I will just stop here.

========================================


Now regarding your body weight above, and your exercise routine, that's just anecdotal, but it obviously work for you.

Here is my anecdote. I'm 5'7, currently about 121 lbs riding weight, 118 lbs after a hard ride. My total cholestrol is under 100, blood sugar under 60, and I forget all the other biometrics like HDL/LDL, tri, but they are all excellent. My diet consist of mainly veggies, yes with lots of carbs from fruits including banana (with the boogieman fructose) and oranges (again, contains fructose). But remember, sugar consumed in their natural state such as in fruit do not give the same glycemic spike as ingesting sugar from a Starbuck capucinno. I believe fruits contain other stuff like vitamins and or something that mitigate or balance out the effect of sugar in them, therefore not "shocking" your body into an insulin spike. 

For a short time, I did try the "paleo" diet, i.e, cutting down my fruits (and carb) intake in favor of more meat (yes, organic grass fed beef and wild-caught fish). I would go from 121 lbs down to 118 lbs, so I lost 3 lbs.. and by the end of a hard ride, I would dip into the 115 lbs. Can we say that at 5'7", 115 lbs is borderline unhealthy for an extreme active person (we're talking 20+ hrs of exercise per week). I could go for 2.5-3 hours of exercise straight at submaximal (75-80% FTP) level at a time (without eating a single gram of breakfast), but I could only do this at a steady state, which makes sense because your body uses fat as fuel most efficiently when the effort is submaximal and steady. But my HIT session was painfully slow to recover, and there is no way I would last 2.5-3 hours under 90% FTP with some 5-10 minutes HIT intervals mix in. My legs would feel heavy, and i can go from 230 -260 W down to 80-90 W easily, in other words, I would bonk. And this has nothing to do with heat exhaustion or lack of fluid or lack of fat metabolism (because as light as I'm, I still have plenty of fat to burn). It boils down to glycogen depletion. As for you 55 min effort, well 55 min short, and your liver and muscle glycogen stores have enough glycogen for you to go all out even at full threshold for 55 min without eating a thing. But trying going for 2 hours at 90-95% threshold and not eating any carb, you will bonk. No question about it.

Regarding this article you linked to earlier:
Skeletal muscle adaptation and performance responses to once a day versus twice every second day endurance training regimens | Journal of Applied Physiology

here is its conclusion:



> While the results of that study (18) are intriguing, several issues currently preclude exercise scientists from making firm recommendations to athletes with respect to undertaking endurance training for performance enhancement in a low glycogen state. First, the subjects in the investigation of Hansen et al. (18) were untrained, and it is not currently known whether undertaking training sessions in a lowered glycogen state will translate into improved training adaptation and performance in already well-trained athletes. Second, the training sessions undertaken by subjects in that study were “clamped” at a fixed submaximal intensity for the duration of the training program: athletes typically periodize their programs to incorporate a “hard-easy” pattern to the overall organization of training, as well as progressive overload (21, 42), rather than training to a fixed (submaximal) intensity. Third, the mode of training (one-legged knee extensor kicking) and the exercise performance task (submaximal kicking to exhaustion) bear little resemblance to the whole body training modes and performance tasks undertaken by the majority of competitive athletes. Fourth, training schedules that induce chronically low muscle glycogen levels may increase the risk for the overtraining syndrome (37) and actually lead to a reduced training capacity (1). Finally, the vast majority of athletes are reluctant to take complete rest days, and training every second day would be considered an extreme practice among this cohort. Accordingly, the aims of the present study were to determine the effects of undertaking selected training sessions with low muscle glycogen content on _1_) training capacity and endurance performance, _2_) whole body substrate metabolism during submaximal exercise, and _3_) several mitochondrial enzymes and signaling proteins with putative roles in promoting training adaptation. We selected well-trained subjects for this investigation: we hypothesized that these athletes would already have maximized their training adaptation and that further gains would be minimal, irrespective of whether they trained with low or normal levels of muscle glycogen.


notice that this apply more so to untrained athletes, and that it doesn't recommend doing so longterm because a low glycogen state could have a negative effect on your HIT sessions. You can't use the article to generlize that we do not need to eat carbs under all endurance efforts. Because we do need it depending on our intensity level and duration of the intensity. The longer the duration at a higher intensity, the more your body rely on glycogen stores and less on the fat stores.


And have you seen this article about the Kenyan distance runners?

Kenya?s Elite Runners: a study on the diet of African Champions | RBGFITCLUB.COM

they are certainly eating plenty of carbs (and even the sugars that many fat- and meat- advocates would consider a sin). Their endurance, and body weight, doesn't indicate that sugar is a bad thing at all. It probably just comes down to that their diet is a good diet for what they are doing. But it's not just the Kenyans, the article also mentions Tarahumara Indians of the Sierra Madre Mountains in Mexico having a high carb diet too.

So it looks like to me human physiology is quite capable of metabolising a wide range of diet. We just need to make sure we do not overwhelm it, be it with sugar or with fat or meat. Best to balance out our diet with our activities. If a person watches TV 10 hrs/day while munching 5 McD w/ 5 Coca Colas.. well he should blame his diet and lifestyle, not blame sugar or carbs (although the sugar he is consuming is bad, but his lifestyle and quantity is his enemy).

=================================


In a reply to Trek_5200, 

you liked this article to suggest that the brain can be adapted to run on ketones: 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874681/

I read the article, and no where in the article, not in the introduction, not in the discussion, does it even suggest that.

Here is what the article says in the Discussion




> It is hypothesized that ketone bodies play a neuroprotective role through an improvement in metabolic efficiency, by sparing glucose, and the degradation of muscle-derived amino acids for substrates...




What the research suggests is ketone playing a neuroprotective role duing fasting or starvation state. This is far far from saying that the brain can be adapted to run on ketones. It's a stretch to jump from neuroprotective state to adaptation state. No enough data to make the jump.

To me, what the article proves is what I have stated above, that humans are quite adaptive to eat multiple stuff and metabolize fuels from those multiple stuff. It can use carb sources, it can use fat sources, it can use protein sources, and it certainly has all the biochmecial pathways interlinking sugar, protein, and fat together.. and it will use an appropriate source of fuel depending on the situation of the body. In intensive exercise, it prefer to use one type of fuel, in starvation, another type. It's quite adaptable. What we need to do is to balance out the fuels, and not overwhelm the body by just strictly using one or two sources and ignoring the third.

Think about this. People get fat because they eat crappy synthetic processed sugars, and in the process, they overwhelm and deteriorate their system to metabolise and regulate sugar, and this also messes with the rest of their other systems that regulate the body. This is extreme, no? But.. now if you then decide to stop taking in all sugar completely, and switch to fat and protein... well guess what, you're again overwhelming your fat and protein metabolism systems. I mean, by consuming more fat and protein, the organs and pathways handling them have to be relied on more and they'll be worked more. So now you're just overloading the fat and protein pathways instead of the sugar pathways. Why swing one of extreme to the other? Why not go the "middle path" (to borrow a Buddhist concept)? Why not use all three fuel sources (fat, protein, carb), use them appropriately, and balance out burden of the body to metabolise them? And this brings me back to what I've been saying, a balanced diet, a diet that is balance in both types of food and the quantity of food consumed.

If you argue that if we constantly overfeed our body with sugar, then our body will reply so much on sugar that it will forget how to use fat for energy. This I absolutely agree with. But by the same token, I also think that if we totally prevent our body from metabolising sugar, then the body too will forget how to use the sugar pathway. The theory of "use it or lose it" applies both ways. I rather use all available pathways of metabolism and keep all systems in top shape and at the same time not overwhelm any one system. Kind of like "spead out the workload".

On a sidenote: I use the "train low", i.e, train under low glycogen, a lot. Wake up, no breakfast, no food, and go for 3 hours ride at zone 3, or a run for 90 min at medium/low pace. Works very very well for steady-state effort at low and medium intensity. But as soon as I put in some high intensity effort, my effort wont last. Muscle will start to simple stop producing the kick, legs will have that cold feeling and want to give out. But if i back off to steady-state and low intensity, then I can recoup a bit but it takes a long time to recoup until I can put in another high intensity spurt. Eventually if I keep doing this, I will just be able to limp home. I train like this alot, experiement with it a lot, from running in highschool to now cycling. I need sugar depending on duration and intensity

Another thing to think about is exposure to our various food sources. You're big in eating organic fats, oil, meat. But being labeled "organic", what does it mean? They tell you it means no GMO, no genetic modification, no pesticides, no antibiotics, and free ranging. All is nice. But does this mean the products derived from the animals are clean and healthy like we assume they are? How can we be assured that the water is pure? How can we be assured that the soil on which the animals roam is free of cancer-causing chemicals? We just don't. And given in today's modern society, a lot of water sources, streams, rivers, oceans are polluted in some way,.. "organic" may not be as "natural" as the animals roaming back in the Stone Age. The same can be said of plants, and fishes product too. How do we know the wild-caught fishes are clean? Bottomline is, we simply don't, and nobody can guarantee us that an "organic" or "wild-caught" product is a "natural" product. Maybe an "organic" product may actually contain more carcinogenic chemicals due to the contaminated soil.. So it's in my opinion that we're better off consuming food from many different sources, so that if one source turned out to be contaminated, our exposure is at leasted limited. It would not be wise to eat, say, organic grass fed beef from Argentina, only to find out years later that the water that fed the grass was itself had contaminated with industrial chemical runoffs. So food diversification also has a protective benefit here.

Btw, I find it interesting that you will not touch a banana, but you'll use the synthetic Skratch stuff or some other sport supplement stuff.


As for Joe Friel article,

I don't know where to start. First of all what he said is all over the place. His article is simply a list of what he thinks we should do. It's not a research. In fact, in the same article, he clearly believes that burning fat is best when you do steady-state exercise at a level equivalent to zone 2&3, which is well well below threshold. And in cycling, we don't ride at steady-state all the time, unless it's a TT. If there are hills and climb, certainly a rider/racer can go above threshold for 5, 10, 20, even 30 minutes at times, and sorry but there is no way fat metabolism alone is going to be able to provide enought ATP fast enough. Tour de France is an endurance sport right? Is there any top rider in there who does not take any sugar during a stage? Is there any rider who only consume fat and protein for the whole tour? I'll bet the answer is a resounding no. You need carbs for long duration of 3-5 hours of riding with period of hit intensity (well above threshold) mixed in. But if it's just zone 2-3, hell even I can go all day long without much food and only water. So carb is a good thing, if used accordingly. Joe Friel's article doesn't scream "don't use carb, use only fats", but it says if you want to burn fat, then do long and low intensity training, which I agree and do it myself.


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## Rokh Hard

dont get all tweeked out on the science. oatmeal before. then sugar and caffeine. thats all you need. and hydrate/electrolytes. good luck.


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