# Question for Campy experts: C Record...



## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

I am in the process of building up a Pinarello Montello with full an 8 speed C-Record group. Originally I had planned on using a Syncro II shifter but have heard that they are not the best shifters to work with. Also, my Syncro shifter is set up for 7 speed and I haven't been able o find the part to make it 8.

My question is, can I use a C-Record friction shifter in this 8 speed group? Are there specific shifters for 6, 7, or 8? If so, how do you tell them apart. Please excuse my ignorance. All my other bikes have Shimano and I've always wanted to have a period campy equiped bike in my stable.

Thanks,

James


----------



## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> I am in the process of building up a Pinarello Montello with full an 8 speed C-Record group. Originally I had planned on using a Syncro II shifter but have heard that they are not the best shifters to work with. Also, my Syncro shifter is set up for 7 speed and I haven't been able o find the part to make it 8.
> 
> My question is, can I use a C-Record friction shifter in this 8 speed group? Are there specific shifters for 6, 7, or 8? If so, how do you tell them apart. Please excuse my ignorance. All my other bikes have Shimano and I've always wanted to have a period campy equiped bike in my stable.
> 
> ...


Friction is not speed specific, so any friction levers will work.


----------



## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

*Wow, that was quick!*

I think my page barely had time to refresh. Thanks for the info. It was what I wanted to hear.

Best,

James


----------



## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> I am in the process of building up a Pinarello Montello with full an 8 speed C-Record group. Originally I had planned on using a Syncro II shifter but have heard that they are not the best shifters to work with. Also, my Syncro shifter is set up for 7 speed and I haven't been able o find the part to make it 8.
> 
> My question is, can I use a C-Record friction shifter in this 8 speed group? Are there specific shifters for 6, 7, or 8? If so, how do you tell them apart. Please excuse my ignorance. All my other bikes have Shimano and I've always wanted to have a period campy equiped bike in my stable.
> 
> ...


Unless you're trying to be period correct, I wouldn't spend money trying to get a Syncro or Syncro II shifter to work with 8 sp. I'd use your exisitng shifter in friction mode, or get a friction only shifter which is lighter and has far fewer parts internally.

Syncro and Syncro II 8 speed shifters worked reasonably well in index mode, but definitely don't work as well as any current index shiftng systems. If I remember correctly, to work in indexed mode, the shifter had to be paired with the correct rear der too, as there were small differences in cable pull between Sycnro and Syncro II.


----------



## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

RHankey said:


> Unless you're trying to be period correct, I wouldn't spend money trying to get a Syncro or Syncro II shifter to work with 8 sp. I'd use your exisitng shifter in friction mode, or get a friction only shifter which is lighter and has far fewer parts internally.
> 
> Syncro and Syncro II 8 speed shifters worked reasonably well in index mode, but definitely don't work as well as any current index shiftng systems. If I remember correctly, to work in indexed mode, the shifter had to be paired with the correct rear der too, as there were small differences in cable pull between Sycnro and Syncro II.


Thanks for the advice. I try to be period correct but at the end of the day, I want something that will work. Back in the day, if something didn't work or an impovement was made to make it work better, than I would have adopted it. It is not like these are one of a kind, museum specimens.

I had thought about just keeping the SYNCRO shifters but if I don't intend to use them in index mode, I might as well just use the standard C-Record friction shifters. They would be period correct, right? They are slightly more elegant looking and as you mentioned, less parts and lighter. What I don't understand is if these shifters are as difficullt to work with as it seems, why the high prices when you find them? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks again,

James


----------



## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

Friction only shifters predated Syncro, but 8sp predated Syncro.

Syncro wasn't really any more difficult to setup than any current indexing system. The current high prices are more a result of supply and demand. There are more people trying to snap these up for period correct bikes than there is supply. If you're looking for period correct, wait until you see the price for delta brakes, which other than their unique design, were more difficult to setup/adjust (other than the cable adjuster above the brake, you had to cut off all excess cable), were heavier, and didn't function any better than other period brakes..


----------



## nenad (May 5, 2004)

RHankey said:


> Friction only shifters predated Syncro, but 8sp predated Syncro.
> 
> Syncro wasn't really any more difficult to setup than any current indexing system. The current high prices are more a result of supply and demand. There are more people trying to snap these up for period correct bikes than there is supply. If you're looking for period correct, wait until you see the price for delta brakes, which other than their unique design, were more difficult to setup/adjust (other than the cable adjuster above the brake, you had to cut off all excess cable), were heavier, and didn't function any better than other period brakes..


And in the light of what was said above, if you are looking for a cheaper alternative as far as brakes go, I'd recommend Cobalto brakes which were bundled with C Record until they sorted out all the issues Deltas had. You can snag those off ebay for less than $200 from time to time.


----------



## ctam (Apr 21, 2003)

However, Campy did also make an 8sp version of their downtube retro-friction shifter. The barrel on the right side was made larger to be able to take up more cable. I believe these shifters came out in 1991 at the same time Campy first made 8sp Syncro downtube shifters.

I can post pictures later if you're interested. 




Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> I think my page barely had time to refresh. Thanks for the info. It was what I wanted to hear.
> 
> Best,
> 
> James


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

<del>8 Speed Synchro II shifters work flawlessly with the appropriate rear derailleur, I've been using this combination for 18 years</del>. I cannot remember the last time I missed a shift.

BTW don't listen to the uninformed about Delta brakes. Yes they are difficult to set up and yes they weigh a ton (well 480 grams per pair to be precise). On the plus side if set up correctly they are excellent brakes with fantastic modulation, if you put Koolstop pads on them they are far better than any single pivot sidepull I've ever used (and I've used most of them). 

I don't like the sudden grabby feel of dual pivots so Deltas remain my favourite brake ever. Some people think they look odd on my new titanium frame but I rather like the anachronism.


----------



## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

ctam said:


> However, Campy did also make an 8sp version of their downtube retro-friction shifter. The barrel on the right side was made larger to be able to take up more cable. I believe these shifters came out in 1991 at the same time Campy first made 8sp Syncro downtube shifters.
> 
> I can post pictures later if you're interested.


Yes, I am very interested in seeing pictures.

Thank you ctam!


----------



## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

How do I tell if I have the right derailleur? Also, where can I find the correct 8 speed internal part? That has been the sticking part for me as of now. The whole drive train has been finished for almost 9 months now but I have not been able to find the part that will allow me to change from 7 to 8 speeds. :mad2: 

Thanks for your help Mark.


----------



## ctam (Apr 21, 2003)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> Yes, I am very interested in seeing pictures.
> 
> Thank you ctam!



OK, I've attached some pictures for you.

1) Pic 1 is of a "Syncro 2" shifter - these came out in the late 80's. You can switch to friction mode by lifting the knurled ring and twisting it. You were able to use various inserts to change the lever to be compatible with 6 or 7 speeds and also to work with multiple freewheel and chain combinations. The inserts came in different colors and you had to look up in a chart for which color to use with whatever freewheel you were using. Index shifting was hit and miss. I was able to get it to work fine using a Regina America freewheel and Regina chain.

2) Pic 2 is of a "Syncro" shifter - these came out in 1991. Not sure why Campy didn't call them Syncro 3??? Anyway, these are for 8 speed. The barrel is larger and the cable hole is higher up. These changes were made so that the shifter could wrap more cable which was required for 8sp. Again, this shifter can be converted to friction mode by lifting the knurled ring. By 1991 Campy made their own cassettes and chains so no more messing with multi colored inserts. These shifted perfectly. If you were still using freewheel hubs you could use a sachs 7sp or 8sp freewheel and shifting was fine too - the sachs freewheels had the same cog spacing as Campy cassettes. I think Regina also made an 8sp freewheel but I never tried it so I can't comment on the shifting.

3) Pic 3 is of an 8sp "Retro-friction" shifter - these came out in 1991. Again, the barrel on the right shifter is larger so that it will work with 8sp. On the 7sp version of these shifters the left and right shifter are a mirror image of each other.

4) Pic 4 is of an 8sp Syncro shifter from 1992-1994. The lever is curved at the tip so it's easier to grab. These are index only (ie no friction mode)

By 1995, the downtube shifters changed once again. Externally the shifter looked almost identical to the 1992 version. But internally the shifters were changed and used 3 springs instead of 2. The 1992 version used only 2 springs. The inserts inside which dictate 8, 9, or 10sp were changed so that they would work with 3 springs. Yes, you can convert downtube shifters to work with 10sp - I've done this before and it works fine.


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

My previous post is in error - the shifters I have are the '92 model (pic #4).


----------



## OperaLover (Jan 20, 2002)

Excellent Syncro analysis!


----------



## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

The shifter I have is a Syncro 2. It seems from your explanation that they will not work on 8 speed eith index or friction. Please correct me if I read that wrong.

Well, that makes it pretty clear then. I can either find a set of the 8 speed Syncro (pic #2)or a set of the 8speed "Retro-friction" shifter (pic #3). Both of these choices post-date the C-Record group that I've assembled. I think that I like the simplicity of the retro-friction shifters. Is there a part number for these or do you just tell by the placement of the barrel hole?

Thanks for the education. This is my first Campy bike. :thumbsup: 

James




ctam said:


> OK, I've attached some pictures for you.
> 
> 1) Pic 1 is of a "Syncro 2" shifter - these came out in the late 80's. You can switch to friction mode by lifting the knurled ring and twisting it. You were able to use various inserts to change the lever to be compatible with 6 or 7 speeds and also to work with multiple freewheel and chain combinations. The inserts came in different colors and you had to look up in a chart for which color to use with whatever freewheel you were using. Index shifting was hit and miss. I was able to get it to work fine using a Regina America freewheel and Regina chain.
> 
> ...


----------



## ctam (Apr 21, 2003)

Hmmm...well you might be able to make Syncro 2 work with 8sp if you find the correct insert. My only concern is that because the barrel on the Syncro 2 shifter is smaller in diameter it might not wrap enough cable to shift all 8 cogs. Or if it is able to shift all 8 cogs, by the time you reach the last cog the shift lever might be bent back at a very extreme angle. You could always try it first in friction mode to see if the lever can shift all 8 cogs.

The easiest visual identifier is the placement of the cable hole on the shifter. The hole is higher up on the lever for the 8sp Syncro levers. There are other differences as well but those are harder to spot unless you disassemble the lever.

For retro-friction the right shift lever is larger than the left for the 8sp levers. If both levers are the same size then those are 7sp.



Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> The shifter I have is a Syncro 2. It seems from your explanation that they will not work on 8 speed eith index or friction. Please correct me if I read that wrong.
> 
> Well, that makes it pretty clear then. I can either find a set of the 8 speed Syncro (pic #2)or a set of the 8speed "Retro-friction" shifter (pic #3). Both of these choices post-date the C-Record group that I've assembled. I think that I like the simplicity of the retro-friction shifters. Is there a part number for these or do you just tell by the placement of the barrel hole?
> 
> ...


----------



## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> The shifter I have is a Syncro 2. It seems from your explanation that they will not work on 8 speed eith index or friction. Please correct me if I read that wrong.


I think a Syncro 2 (in friction mode) or older Campy friction only shifter will pull sufficient cable for 8sp, but it will likely require the lever to rotate clsoe to 180deg, Not ideal, hence why Campy went to a larger pull shifters. I doubt you'll find an 8sp index ring for Syncro 2. 8sp index rings for Syncro ought to be avaliable. I used Syncro in indexed mode with Regina 8sp freewheels and later with Campy cassettes.


----------



## INDECS (Sep 22, 2009)

I've found these (curved) 8-speed indexed Record shifters to work really nice. 
They were the last downtube shifters before the Ergopower brifters came:











They still exist today as 10-speed bar end / TT shifters and can be converted to dt shifters and look the same when you remove the rubber covers:


----------



## fatsteelfreak (Jun 28, 2007)

Good thread 

What parts (if any) are needed to convert barends to d/t shifters?

Andy


----------



## ctam (Apr 21, 2003)

You would need to find these parts which prevent the shifters from shifting beyond the smallest cog/chainring. The part on the left is taller (this one is for the rear shifter) because the barrel is larger for the rear shifter. I've never seen these parts available seperately. You might be able to make your own or look for a similar part from another company.

I should clarify the derailleurs shouldn't be able to shift beyond the smallest cog/chainring because your limit screws on the derailleurs will prevent this from happening. But the shift lever itself will be able to keep clicking beyond the last gear if you do not have these parts. 



fatsteelfreak said:


> Good thread
> 
> What parts (if any) are needed to convert barends to d/t shifters?
> 
> Andy


----------



## fatsteelfreak (Jun 28, 2007)

Thanks for that. I should have some of those in my parts bin............... 

Andy


----------



## JML (May 16, 2003)

One caution, from experience. I had wheels built around C Record hubs. I still have them, but they're useless, because after all those years since they were made, the rubber seal swells up and binds. To use the hubs, the seals have to be ripped out, which means there's little to no protection for the bearings. Replacement seals do not exist.

So before you build up wheels, inspect the hubs and decide what to do.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*but Deltas*



Mark Kelly said:


> <del>8 Speed Synchro II shifters work flawlessly with the appropriate rear derailleur, I've been using this combination for 18 years</del>. I cannot remember the last time I missed a shift.
> 
> BTW don't listen to the uninformed about Delta brakes. Yes they are difficult to set up and yes they weigh a ton (well 480 grams per pair to be precise). On the plus side if set up correctly they are excellent brakes with fantastic modulation, if you put Koolstop pads on them they are far better than any single pivot sidepull I've ever used (and I've used most of them).
> 
> I don't like the sudden grabby feel of dual pivots so Deltas remain my favourite brake ever. Some people think they look odd on my new titanium frame but I rather like the anachronism.


limit your tire size
I'd rather use monoplaners (and single pivot ta boot!)


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

atpjunkie said:


> limit your tire size
> I'd rather use monoplaners (and single pivot ta boot!)


I rode monoplanars for years before I got the Deltas (couldn't afford them new). The monoplanars are going to a friend who collects old bikes - IMO the Deltas are so much better I'd never go back.


----------



## JML (May 16, 2003)

If you want/need the C-Record hub dust cap puller, send me a PM. I don't need mine any more.


----------



## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

I've been looking at this older thread as I try to figure out the Syncro thing--I have an 8 speed wheel that I would like to use, and am looking at an older group and trying to figure out if I can make the whole thing work. I found this ad on ebay and I thought I should post his detailed description of the colored rings:


> The inserts include:
> 
> 6 Speed Insert - Red (Chorus A6) (7222070)
> 6 Speed Insert - White (Chorus B6 & Croce D'Aune Sm) (7222075)
> ...



View attachment 282139


----------



## dodger150 (Feb 15, 2005)

The last gasps of Syncro ~ tears for gears

Poke around this site. Has a lot of info on Campy Syncros and this page has compatibility charts.


----------



## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

dodger150 said:


> The last gasps of Syncro ~ tears for gears
> 
> Poke around this site. Has a lot of info on Campy Syncros and this page has compatibility charts.


That's a real help--especially since the later ones are even less well documented.

I saw mention of using the Campy 10 bar-end shifters for downtube shifters--too bad they are only supporting the 9 and 10 speed versions, although I suppose this is the whole post-2001 change in the index spacing. 

Still though it would be easy enough for someone to produce the Campy bar ends as a real DT shifter--preferably going back to the 1991 version that allowed you to shift to friction--I'd buy them and use them as friction 8s with the ability to index 10s. 

I can dream, can't I?


----------



## dodger150 (Feb 15, 2005)

The Campy 10s Bar End Shifters can be converted to 8s. I bought a set of 8s Veloce DT shifters (same as Record Bar Ends without cable adjuster) and converted them to 10s. there are 8, 9 and 10s index gears available. See this thread for discussion...

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/retro-classic/campagnolo-downtube-shifters-186983.html


----------



## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

I've been down this road this spring in setting up my retro ride with down tubes again. I decided against all the effort it was going to take to get decent shifting out the Syncro II shifters. I read about all the mods and issues. I opted in the end for something not yet mentioned here. I got some DA 10 shifters and use a Jtek Shiftmate in back with a 10 speed hub. So what I get is DA level of crisp shifting with a Campy drivetrain. The DA 10 shifters have a nice chrome and so don't stand out or detract from the look of an otherwise Campy bike. 

I also have last gen 5-pivot Delta brakes. With new pads and properly set up they work very nice. They don't have the "throw you over the bars" grabbing power that a modern dual pivot brake does but I can really think of when you'd want that. I think most of the complaints about these have to do with setup. They are designed to have the caliper arms further away from the rims than modern caliper brakes. The leverage and stopping power comes from the arms being able to move. Set too close and they won't stop well at all.


----------



## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

brewster said:


> I've been down this road this spring in setting up my retro ride with down tubes again. I decided against all the effort it was going to take to get decent shifting out the Syncro II shifters. I read about all the mods and issues. I opted in the end for something not yet mentioned here. I got some DA 10 shifters and use a Jtek Shiftmate in back with a 10 speed hub. So what I get is DA level of crisp shifting with a Campy drivetrain. The DA 10 shifters have a nice chrome and so don't stand out or detract from the look of an otherwise Campy bike.
> 
> I also have last gen 5-pivot Delta brakes. With new pads and properly set up they work very nice. They don't have the "throw you over the bars" grabbing power that a modern dual pivot brake does but I can really think of when you'd want that. I think most of the complaints about these have to do with setup. They are designed to have the caliper arms further away from the rims than modern caliper brakes. The leverage and stopping power comes from the arms being able to move. Set too close and they won't stop well at all.


I so don't look at Shimano--I didn't know that they still made a 10spd DT shifter--found it on Chain Reaction for $78--so cheaper than many of the Sychro sets are selling for. so it looks like an additional $40 or so for the Jtek

That looks like a good solution!

You're in good company with the Deltas--a number of good mechanics say the same about the slightly finicky setup but decent stopping power when done right.


----------



## onespeedbiker (May 28, 2007)

I believe the 8 speed Syncrol ll introduced in 1991 andincluding 1992 and 1995, were not backwards compatible, with it's larger take up barrel, so if you want an 8 speed Syncro down tube shifter you will need to buy and 8 speed Syncro shifter, and assuming that's true there is no 8sp colored coded insert, it simply works with the insert that comes with the shifter. However I believe the 8 speed inserts also work in either 9 or 10 speed bar end units. Further, if you want reliable shifting the 8 speed Syncros (especially the 1995) work very well. 

One of the primary problems with Syncro and Syncro ll was trying to index in-line parallelogram derailleurs which takes half the cable pull to move as a drop or slant parallelogram derailleur, which means the shifting needed to be twice as accurate. With the longer pull of the Campagnolo 8 speed slant parallelogram derailleur, there was less need for the over shifting needed for the 6 and 7 speeds and the 1995 8 speed version added a 3 third spring that increased the accuracy of the shifting; a design that is almost unchanged in the 9 and 10 speed bar end shifters.


----------



## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

onespeedbiker said:


> I believe the 8 speed Syncrol ll introduced in 1991 andincluding 1992 and 1995, were not backwards compatible, with it's larger take up barrel, so if you want an 8 speed Syncro down tube shifter you will need to buy and 8 speed Syncro shifter, and assuming that's true there is no 8sp colored coded insert, it simply works with the insert that comes with the shifter. However I believe the 8 speed inserts also work in either 9 or 10 speed bar end units. Further, if you want reliable shifting the 8 speed Syncros (especially the 1995) work very well.
> 
> One of the primary problems with Syncro and Syncro ll was trying to index in-line parallelogram derailleurs which takes half the cable pull to move as a drop or slant parallelogram derailleur, which means the shifting needed to be twice as accurate. With the longer pull of the Campagnolo 8 speed slant parallelogram derailleur, there was less need for the over shifting needed for the 6 and 7 speeds and the 1995 8 speed version added a 3 third spring that increased the accuracy of the shifting; a design that is almost unchanged in the 9 and 10 speed bar end shifters.


Thanks for more detail.

I got sniped on a set of 8 speeds last night on eBay--the box was marked 1992 and they looked to have the same size barrels both sides... I can't believe how expensive most 8 speed stuff is though, I may rethink the plan and build it as a 9 speed...


----------



## ctam (Apr 21, 2003)

You need to be careful with which version of 8sp shifters you get. If you get the earlier version that only used 2 springs inside then I don't think these can be upgraded to 9 or 10sp. You need the shifters that used 3 springs inside if you want to use them for 9/10sp.


----------

