# Why I would never buy another Seven Cycles...



## 24Hours (Apr 26, 2005)

I've spelled out my rant in this thread, so I'll spare everyone reading this post too, but I thought it meritted a thread to share other folks' stories re: Seven and the manner in which it regards customers' requests.

I'm sure not everyone will be in this camp; I envy you. 

I suppose that I only have myself to blame, since I could have gone a different route (and certainly a cheaper route!!) for a new road bike, but this was supposed to be my bike for the next 10 years, my new spiritual outlet. 

And while I feel culpable for indulgence, I agressively provided the fit "consultant" at Seven what I needed this frame to be and what my fit needs to be. Afterall, if I had no idea what to expect, then I'd be spinning around merrily with my toes pointing south, just like the fools at Seven tell us we should be doing.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I couldn't tell from your thread if you asked for a certain TT length, "frame size", ST angle, HT angle, and so on ? If you did, you have a case. Same goes for the shop. If you told them that you wanted a 110 stem, and they gave you a 130, you should tell them to shove it.
It's my belief that one shouldn't order a custom frame until you can tell the builder what specs to build it to. I would never rely on someone else to tell me what I need.


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## cdmc (Feb 3, 2004)

Go back to the shop and tell them that Seven needs to provide you with a frame that is in accordance with the specifications that were provided to them. In the event they don't want to, simply tell the shop you will file an action in small claims court. The shop is the party you made a contract with to supply you with a certain product and they have breached that contract; PERIOD. It is the shops problem to get Seven to deliver the product that was ordered. 

Getting a frame that is off by 3 cm in reach in not excusable on an off the shelf $600 bike with Sora. For $6000, that thing better fit you perfectly and ride like a dream.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

*I swear I've read another poster have the same...*

problem with Seven. In fact it was their "philosophy" that steered me clear of them when I baught my IF Ti Crown Jewel last year. I wish you the best if luck, I'd be hacked!


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## 24Hours (Apr 26, 2005)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I couldn't tell from your thread if you asked for a certain TT length, "frame size", ST angle, HT angle, and so on ? If you did, you have a case. Same goes for the shop. If you told them that you wanted a 110 stem, and they gave you a 130, you should tell them to shove it.
> It's my belief that one shouldn't order a custom frame until you can tell the builder what specs to build it to. I would never rely on someone else to tell me what I need.


Gents:
Thank you for your posts. I've been slow to call the shop b/c I can't be sure how to approach this (I have a bit of a temper sometimes and am "steppin' back").

When I filled out my order form, we used the measurements from my Ritchey (56-56c-c ST and TT), which I said was NOT what I wanted. I used the measurements from my '90 Fowler (custom made in CO) and provided the exact details: 55ST and 57TT w/ ~73/73.5* ST/HT angles. Rhetorical: what more could I tell them?

I ordered the Aerios with the knowledge that a sloped TT would require that Seven configure the "virtual" measurements in the same fit as my Fowler. So naturally the actual measurements are different on the Aerios. I need to go back and try to measure the "virtual" measurements, which could lead to some recourse for me vs. Seven.

Nonetheless, I will be going back to the shop to correct the following:
* Seatpost needs to have Zero offset
* Chop the excess steertube (I miss quill stems, and those nice round Cinelli bars)
* "Chirping" rear derailure or whatever is making mystery chirp
* Pricing on group was exorbanent, even for So. Connecticut

What can't be fixed right now:
* Seven didn't put my name on the frame (corney, but I had it on my Fowler)

So before I try to make a case, I need to document all measurements, and contrast and discrepancies from my order form. But the bottom line is that Seven sent the frame with fit measurements back to the shop that differed MATERIALLY from what I had told them I needed. So as soon as I begin to move things on my own, I realize that I made a mistake in going to a "premier" frame builder for this job.

To be fair to myself: I did look for Tracy on the Reynolds' website (he'd been listed as 753-certified some years ago), but my search came up empty. I actually just wanted another steel bike, but got carried away with the idea of a custom Ti frame. Now I just feel like a fool.

I'll post again with results from my efforts.

Cheers

P.S.: Since I bored you with my story, I figured you may like a pic of my toys (roadie fresh from the shop)...


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Do your homework, and then smack the shop (and seven) with the facts. Don't get mad. Just tell them that what you got, was not what you ordered.


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## cdmc (Feb 3, 2004)

It looks like you got carried away twice as there two Seven's on your rack.


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

cdmc said:


> It looks like you got carried away twice as there two Seven's on your rack.


Yes, I was wondering the samething. Was it buy a roadbike get a mtn bike free day or something?


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

*Some suggestions*

Seven should be able to e-mail you a copy of the drawing used to build your frame. This will help in determing its geometry.

Apart from determining your geometry:

1) Get a Thomson (no setback) post. If you want zero-offset they are the best, end of story.

2) When you talk about your reach being 3-3.5 cm off of your old bike, where are you measuring to? The hoods? Your old Cinelli bars might have been shallow drop/short reach. The center-center reach of bars like those is around 80 mm. Some of the new ergo/deep drop bars have c-c reach of 100 mm. I see you have an Easton stem, if you also have Easton bars most of their selections have a long reach. You could possibly get back 10-20 mm by choosing current bars with short reach, like the Deda Newton "Shallow" bend.

However, if the frame is too big then the frame is too big. Nothing sucks worse than seeing a guy on 56+ cm bike and 90 mm stem.


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## SteveCnj (Oct 6, 2003)

24Hours said:


> I've spelled out my rant in this thread, so I'll spare everyone reading this post too, but I thought it meritted a thread to share other folks' stories re: Seven and the manner in which it regards customers' requests.
> 
> I'm sure not everyone will be in this camp; I envy you.
> 
> ...


My rule is easy, If you are buying a custom frame, ONLY DO SO IF YOU MEET AND ARE FITTED BY THE PERSON WHO WILL ACTUALLY BUILD YOUR BIKE. If the "builder" uses middlemen and bike shops to do the fitting, then immediatly take them off your list. They are not a custom builder, they are a contract manufacturer (in my opinion of course). Besides, you're in CT and you're buying a SEVEN? What's with that?


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

*I think I smell...*

Buyer's remorse. Let's be honest, you probably just spent eight large to figure out that titanium isn't magic, and you feel the need to blame anyone other than yourself for your folly.

All of your complaints to fitting and creaking are resolved by the seatpost you spec'd, and a little grease or tightening here or there. None of which is Seven's fault, and barely the LBS's, since you paid and walked out the door with it that way. Few shops that sell custom wouldn't make good on those issues if given an honest, non-*****y chance.

That you rode a bike with the seat set an inch too high, then felt that to be a reason to ***** about someone who's never seen you or your saddle or post is simply a mark of the desperation to rationalize the irrational.

Seven guarantees a hard-spec'd frame to 1.5 mm. You haven't measured, yet you ***** based on one ride on a bike you didn't even bother to set up properly. No good argument there.

If not hard-spec'd, they guarantee that it will hit the fit you spec'd in the ride test with size-appropriate components. You obviously didn't give the LBS a chance to set the bike to those parameters, so again, this rant is without merit to Seven, and likely not to the LBS.

If the bike doesn't hit the specs you signed off on, and Seven doesn't make good, ***** away. Until then, you'd find it more productive to hold your breath until someone gave you what you want. 

There's no one in this transaction who's best interests aren't served by making you happy with your bike - except possibly you. Approaching the LBS fairly, honestly, and with a sense of working together to a common outcome will give you the best results. Trying to lay the blame anywhere - Seven, the LBS, or even on yourself - will result in a suboptimal outcome. If the fault is with LBS setup, they'll make good if treated well. If they are at fault in the measuring process, they'll work with Seven to get you happy. If the problem is with Seven, they'll be on your side if you're on theirs. 

But if the problem is honestly that you made a string of bad decisions, do the right thing, suck it up, and set up an ebay account. Or talk to your LBS - they may be willing to consign it. Again, attitude is everything.


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## jnwarner0 (Oct 4, 2005)

*Lets be honest.*

Lets e honest You have no clue and that is a pretty big assumption that may be true but may not. You pretty much accuse him of this. Man there are a lot of angry people on this forum. Deep breath. By the way what are they really after if not fish?


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## 24Hours (Apr 26, 2005)

FTF said:


> Yes, I was wondering the samething. Was it buy a roadbike get a mtn bike free day or something?


  
The MTB is older than the roadie by a few years. The frame is solid as a rock and gave me some peace of mind when I ordered a Ti road frame.  



Eric_H said:


> 1) Get a Thomson (no setback) post. If you want zero-offset they are the best, end of story.
> 2) When you talk about your reach being 3-3.5 cm off of your old bike, where are you measuring to? The hoods? Your old Cinelli bars might have been shallow drop/short reach...
> 
> Nothing sucks worse than seeing a guy on 56+ cm bike and 90 mm stem.


You are spot-on.
1.) I was thinking Thompson or USE alien, as both are close in price at Excel or ColoCyc.
2.) Last night I set up a level surface and I measured the frame as best I could for the virual measurements. The frame is pretty close to a 55-57 that I'd asked for. <relief>. However, as you noticed the reach is now too long due to a.) the seat post and b.) the stem, which is a 120. My old 55-57 frame had a 110 stem, which is what I think I need to goto. Also, as you mention, the Cinelli bars have a shorter reach than the ITM, but my measurement was based on the imaginary exit pt of the seatpost on the top of the saddle to the center of the tops (center of the bar in the clamp).

So, the confluence of a bad philosphy at Seven and the sloppy work at the shop I bought from contributed to the wrong fit. My lesson here is to go with my gut and not let others do for me that I should have done myself. I should have built this up myself (sadly my Park tools would need some updating), but I was being lazy.



danl1 said:


> I suck


Agreed.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

jnwarner0 said:


> Lets e honest You have no clue and that is a pretty big assumption that may be true but may not. You pretty much accuse him of this. Man there are a lot of angry people on this forum. Deep breath. By the way what are they really after if not fish?


Out of order:

The tagline is from Thoreau. The answer to the question is: Dinner. Sport. Time with the beer and the buddies. Peace and quiet. Time away from people like me. A million things, but what they're not after is a slimy, smelly thing will die as soon as they take posession of it and is useless in it's present form.

To more meaty topics:
You're right, might be true, might not. I don't care if I'm right or not - I've no investment in the situation. Won't call it an accusation, rather an opportunity to look at things from a different angle. We are best served when we're honest with ourselves and treat others better than they deserve, and I thought I saw some pointers that it might not have happened here. Only offering another set of eyes on the situation, one not colored by any particular 'side.' If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, no harm done. The OP is free to call me on it - but you're not because like me, you have no clue. Not being offensive, only saying that neither of us were there.

I could have phrased it differently, and if the OP is offended by my thoughts, I happily apologize to him. Not sure why you feel the need to be offended on his behalf, but I'll happily apologize to you as well. Apparently I sounded angry to you, but that's not the case. You sound a bit angry with me, though since I can't imagine your stake in the conversation, I don't see why. Perhaps you are one of those "angry people" who insist on controlling other's opinions and expression, or perhaps I misread your intention as badly as you misread mine. Either way, apologies all around, no harm done.

While the guy does have reasons to be unhappy, I'm having trouble connecting them to Seven at this point. If it's found that Seven didn't provide what was ordered and doesn't make good, all's fair. But everything I hear so far is more about the LBS kitting the frame out badly. That's reason enough to get angry, but not at Seven. Treat them well, and they'll help work things out with the LBS. They've got some sway if they choose to use it. They won't choose to if confronted with anger and accusation, even if some is deserved. Flipside is true for the LBS vs. Seven, if that turns out to be the way things fall.

Now, there is the bad attitude from Seven's phone guy. There's no excuse for it, though it was probably caused by him under-estimating the knowledge and experience of our guy. He may have felt he was being helpful. Sometimes communication works like that, where intentions don't come come through properly  . Maybe he had a bad day, and didn't return call out of embarrassment. Either way, I have trouble figuring out where I'd buy my clothes, food, cars, bikes, or almost anything else if rude service folk are the measuring bar. It'd be great if the world were different, but getting angry about it is (for me) to get angry at the rain for being wet. 

If the OP said "Seven was rude and the bike ain't all that," I wouldn't have a thing to say. If he said "the TT is 3 cm long and they refuse to do anything about it", I'd join the shouting. But "I'm mad at Seven because the LBS gave me the wrong post and stem and didn't guess correctly on where to set them, and didn't grease the assembly well" doesn't sound like a strategy that will to lead to a satisfactory resolution. On the other hand, "this isn't working out to my expectations," with no hint of blame to anyone (including LBS, Seven, and OP), usually leads to a satisfactory resolution.


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## 800lbgorilla (Aug 1, 2005)

*Hmmm....*

Having read you original post, the previous thread, and your most recent post, it would appear that Danl1, although originally abraisive, makes a valid point.

Sounds like the measurements from seven are exactly spot-on, so you'll need to lower your post 2.5 cm to get the 70cm bb-saddle distance you desired (unless you specified 55cm center-to-top seat tube and Seven gave you a 55cm center-to center, which is a significant f&*!-up, but should still be rideable).

Your biggest beef is clearly with the LBS, who gave you a setback seatpost when you asked for a straight one, and a 120cm stem when you spec'd a 110. The extra 1cm of your stem and the setback of the post (most are about 2.5 cm) should account for all of your cockpit length discrepancy. 

So, unless Seven gave you a 55cm c-c seat tube instead of 55cm c-t, your problems are entirely the doing of the shop.

Hope you like the ride once you get the stem and post issues sorted out (Good choice with the thomson, btw).


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## cthomas (Oct 26, 2003)

*Ditto 800lbGorilla*

I'm a very happy owner of a Seven, but admit that I was nervous about the sizing process and had mine fit using the Serotta sizing program to make sure I was happy with the size. I also know that Seven sends out a "diagram" with all the tubelengths, angles, etc. to the shop and requests custom sign off via faxing the form back before they cut and build. Did you sign off on this?

I know on mine I checked everything during the spec process to be sure it was as agreed. 

If I were you, my first trip would be back to the shop to have them swap stems, seatposts, etc. This may solve the majority of your issues.


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## ChrisdeRoulet (Jul 20, 2014)

I have one of the first SEVEN Axioms ever made (1997) and still ride it a couple times each week. Sure, I've replaced the wheels (crack in the rear wheel), have had 4 different saddles, upgraded my Campy Record to a triple (moved up to the California Sierras and am now in my late 50's), and added a SEVEN carbon seat post.

But every time I walk into the garage and see that frame, it's a love affair all over again. The bike shop that fit me is out of business by now, but they fit me perfectly. Blaming SEVEN for the fit would be like blaming you Mac for entering 2 + 2 and getting 4 when you expected the answer to be 5 (they build based upon the numbers given them).

My bike shop forgot to have SEVEN add a frame pump bracket, but offered to make it right. The frame is still the best I've ever owned, and over 17 years later, I'm still passionate about its' ride!


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

ChrisdeRoulet said:


> I have one of the first SEVEN Axioms ever made (1997) and still ride it a couple times each week. Sure, I've replaced the wheels (crack in the rear wheel), have had 4 different saddles, upgraded my Campy Record to a triple (moved up to the California Sierras and am now in my late 50's), and added a SEVEN carbon seat post.
> 
> But every time I walk into the garage and see that frame, it's a love affair all over again. The bike shop that fit me is out of business by now, but they fit me perfectly. Blaming SEVEN for the fit would be like blaming you Mac for entering 2 + 2 and getting 4 when you expected the answer to be 5 (they build based upon the numbers given them).
> 
> My bike shop forgot to have SEVEN add a frame pump bracket, but offered to make it right. The frame is still the best I've ever owned, and over 17 years later, I'm still passionate about its' ride!


8+ year old thread dredge for your first post. Good job, .....................good job.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ChrisdeRoulet said:


> I have one of the first SEVEN Axioms ever made (1997) and still ride it a couple times each week. Sure, I've replaced the wheels (crack in the rear wheel), have had 4 different saddles, upgraded my Campy Record to a triple (moved up to the California Sierras and am now in my late 50's), and added a SEVEN carbon seat post.
> 
> But every time I walk into the garage and see that frame, it's a love affair all over again. The bike shop that fit me is out of business by now, but they fit me perfectly. Blaming SEVEN for the fit would be like blaming you Mac for entering 2 + 2 and getting 4 when you expected the answer to be 5 (they build based upon the numbers given them).
> 
> My bike shop forgot to have SEVEN add a frame pump bracket, but offered to make it right. The frame is still the best I've ever owned, and over 17 years later, I'm still passionate about its' ride!





tihsepa said:


> 8+ year old thread dredge for your first post. Good job, .....................good job.


Seriously...how do people even manage to do this? Join a forum and find the one thing they have an opinion about? 

OTOH hand, that means he can use the search function better than most!


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

I would still rather read an 8 year old post about custom bike problems, than read a post from yesterday about what color bike to buy.

I wonder what 24hours opinion is on his Seven now days?


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## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I couldn't tell from your thread if you asked for a certain TT length, "frame size", ST angle, HT angle, and so on ? If you did, you have a case. Same goes for the shop. If you told them that you wanted a 110 stem, and they gave you a 130, you should tell them to shove it.
> It's my belief that one shouldn't order a custom frame until you can tell the builder what specs to build it to. I would never rely on someone else to tell me what I need.


I have to disagree with you to a point. In some cases custom frame customers will know exactly what they want, but they are a minority. Most riders go to custom after having owned standard sizes with which they will have usually compromised on the fit. Many will have purchased their bikes from dealers who either advised them with an incorrect fit or even just sold their client a bike they needed to get rid of.

We have built a few custom frames recently and once we launch officially we will have a detailed approach to fitting the customer. Where possible we will ask for a short video of the customer actually riding his bike, photographs of the bike and we will request a series of detailed measurements along with a questionnaire regarding riding habits, style and asking what the customer would change about his or her current bike. Then our designer will prepare a detailed frame design that he will submit to the frame builder for confirmation that he agrees with the design. We then submit that design to the customer to sign off on before building the frame. Given that our frame builders have over a century of experience behind them, I have found that they know far more about frame fit than most bike shops.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

twinkles said:


> I would still rather read an 8 year old post about custom bike problems, than read a post from yesterday about what color bike to buy.
> 
> I wonder what 24hours opinion is on his Seven now days?


Seven is one of the best companies out there in building custom bikes. If you are properly measured they will design a bike that fits, but if you are somewhat vague in what you want the bike to accomplish or give them a bad spec, then sub-optimal results are certainly possible. One approach I've seen people take that I like is to do custom fit but have them target the geometry of a real world bike. Lots of people have Seven or Firefly build a Bi bike that mimics Colnago geometry for example.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> Seven is one of the best companies out there in building custom bikes. If you are properly measured they will design a bike that fits, but if you are somewhat vague in what you want the bike to accomplish or give them a bad spec, then sub-optimal results are certainly possible. One approach I've seen people take that I like is to do custom fit but have them target the geometry of a real world bike. Lots of people have Seven or Firefly build a Bi bike that mimics Colnago geometry for example.


It's not possible to give Seven 'vague' spec. They only work w/ dealers that know how to fit bikes properly. The dealer 'experience' is very thorough...a multiple page questionnaire is filled out by the dealer, and a bunch of body measurements that are specifically requested by Seven must be provided. Then Seven contacts the customer and goes through the whole thing again and they provide their input. 
The only thing you'll get from Seven is exactly what you ask for.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Trek_5200 said:


> Lots of people have Seven or Firefly build a Bi bike that mimics Colnago geometry for example.


I have always wanted to ride a Bi Titan bike. I am glad you brought that one up!!!


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