# Litespeed Didn't Honor Their Lifetime Warranty



## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

I wanted to share a recent bad experience that I had with Litespeed bicycles. I own two Litespeeds; a Vortex road bike and a Niota mountain bike, Honestly I love both of the bikes. Especially the mountain bike. The thing is a dream on dirt.

If you're considering buying a Litespeed I'd like you to read my experience and seriously reconsider that decision. In my opinion and personal experience is this company doesn't seem to stand by their products and even though my bike was purchased from them with a "Lifetime Warranty" they refused to honor their warranty commitment to me.

About me:

I'm you're average cycling enthusiast. I ride both road and mountain bike and love them both. While I used to be competitive years ago I'm more of an aggressive recreational rider now. I ride 2 to 3 times per week over regular trails in the Southeast.

The bike:

This is a 2005 Litespeed Niota purchased from Litespeed / American Bicycle Company as a "new" demo. The bike was used as a demo rig for Litespeed to sell bikes. It was sold to me as a "new" bike with a full lifetime warranty. It was purchased from American Bicycle Company's now defunct website PreownedBikes.com The bike was purchased in 2005.

The failure:

While riding the bike over some bumpy / rooty Florida trails the back end of the bike collapsed with a loud pop. I cam to a stop and one of the tubes in the rear swing arm broke in half at the weld seam. After closer inspection of the failure and doing some research into titanium welding it looks like that the weld failed because it was improperly welded. The purple color of the weld suggests that Litespeed didn't used enough argon sheilding gas to keep the weld free of oxygen.

Litepeed's failure to honor their commitment:

I contacted the warranty department of Litespeed with proof of purchase and their response was that they covered the bike for a period of 2 years and after that I was on my own. And that basically no proof of the lifetime warranty claim and that they would not cover it. Of course their PreownedBikes.com website is long gone and there is no way for me to show the product page for my bike from 5 years ago. So I could pay them for a replacement part/repair but they wouldn't honor their warranty.

My opinion:

Litespeed charges a lot for their bikes. Litespeed also makes claims about the superior durability of titanium. Litespeed claims to back their products with a lifetime warranty. If you search the web for Litespeed warranty problems you'll find dozens of stories just like mine when when they customers experienced a product failure Litespeed didn't honor their commitment to their customer and denied the warranty claim.

Ask yourself; do you really want to spend $5000 - $6000 - $7000 on a bike from a manufacturer that has a history of screwing their customers when they need support?


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## hoothroopoo (Aug 27, 2010)

IronDonut said:


> Of course their PreownedBikes.com website is long gone and there is no way for me to show the product page for my bike from 5 years ago.


Here you go.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051017103318/www.preownedbikes.com/05/warranty.aspx


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

Hey Thanks for looking that up. I did look up that warranty info on archive.com the problem is that I couldn't find the page that showed the details of the specific bike that I bought from them. Since the bikes they sold on that site came with a variety of different warranty levels they are trying to bail on their responsibility.

It's a shitty way to do business. And it's really short sighted. The market for titanium bikes continues to shrink you'd think that they'd try to keep the last few remaining titanium lovers happy rather than alienating them. 

They won't get another nickel from me. I'm not going to pay them for the repair either. I'll either weld in a new tube myself or pay someone else to do it for me. Litespeed can go to hell.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Funny that the archive lists everything but a 2 year warranty. I see lifetime, 3 year, 1 year, 90 days and none. How was your frame special?

So, I'd tell them "You never offered 2 year warranties, so you are not being truthful. I purchased my bike with a Lifetime Warranty. Please honor it."


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## gearguywb (Dec 26, 2006)

Seems to be an abundance of this type of issue with ABG lately.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

hoothroopoo said:


> Here you go.
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20051017103318/www.preownedbikes.com/05/warranty.aspx


If this is the warranty you are referring to, I don't see how you are covered by Litespeed. The warranty is through Pre Owned Bikes - not Litespeed, which I'm sure are technically and legally separate entities. And it states "Claims and returns must be made directly to preownedbikes.com". So if you bought the bike through POB, registered the bike through POB, the warranty is through POB, and POB no longer exists, I would think your warranty dies with it. I'm not saying that Litespeed might not have some moral responsibility, but (again, assuming the posted warranty is the one you are referring to) I don't see where Litespeed has a "warranty commitment" to honor in this case.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Gimme Shoulder said:


> If this is the warranty you are referring to, I don't see how you are covered by Litespeed. The warranty is through Pre Owned Bikes - not Litespeed, which I'm sure are technically and legally separate entities. And it states "Claims and returns must be made directly to preownedbikes.com". So if you bought the bike through POB, registered the bike through POB, the warranty is through POB, and POB no longer exists, I would think your warranty dies with it. I'm not saying that Litespeed might not have some moral responsibility, but (again, assuming the posted warranty is the one you are referring to) I don't see where Litespeed has a "warranty commitment" to honor in this case.


Corporations are slippery entities, but since all POB products are ABG products, I think it is pretty clear that the two are more than just casually connected.

When warranties are promised, the dissolution of an satelite doesn't remove the responsibility from the parent company to honor them. And Litespeed already admitted to having at least a 2 year responsibilty on this bike, which would be inconsistant with what you're getting at.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Most manufacturers will only honor warranties to the original seller. Regardless of what the retailer told you, in order to make a sale, you did buy a used bike. I can't find fault with Litespeed in regards to your situation. 
Think about it, people spend a LOT of money on wheels, components, and frames because someone told them they'd make them faster than what they currently have. Aside from aerodynamic benefits at higher speeds, all of it is complete BS. 
You could write a nice and polite letter to Litespeed, asking them nicely to help you out. It'll go a lot farther than just insulting them. You might just get lucky. Complain and whine, who'd want to deal with that?


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## Gaear Grimsrud (Oct 18, 2010)

Peanya said:


> Think about it, people spend a LOT of money on wheels, components, and frames because someone told them they'd make them faster than what they currently have. Aside from aerodynamic benefits at higher speeds, all of it is complete BS.


Maybe this isn't the right time and place for a retro-grouch sermon.

The OP made it clear there was no previous owner.



> Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the *original owner*.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

rx-79g said:


> Corporations are slippery entities, but since all POB products are ABG products, I think it is pretty clear that the two are more than just casually connected.
> 
> When warranties are promised, the dissolution of an satelite doesn't remove the responsibility from the parent company to honor them. And Litespeed already admitted to having at least a 2 year responsibilty on this bike, which would be inconsistant with what you're getting at.


It's hard to know precisely what was said by the Litespeed warranty department person, or in what context, not being privy to the conversation. I note that, based on the time line implied by the OP's synopsis, POB might have been dissolving at just about the 2 year mark, which might have entered into that conversation. I don't know - just say'n. I also note that the OP states "...that basically (with) no proof of the lifetime warranty claim and that they would not cover it". So I'm guessing that the bike might NOT have been duely registered through the POB registration process. If the OP did register the bike, Litespeed (ABG) would surely have that on record, even if POB is gone - and this would be an important factor in the story, not mentioned by the OP.

Again, I'm not defending Litespeed or ABG. Obviously, they have some customer care issues. Just saying there's a flip side to every story.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Peanya said:


> Most manufacturers will only honor warranties to the original seller. Regardless of what the retailer told you, in order to make a sale, you did buy a used bike. I can't find fault with Litespeed in regards to your situation.
> Think about it, people spend a LOT of money on wheels, components, and frames because someone told them they'd make them faster than what they currently have. Aside from aerodynamic benefits at higher speeds, all of it is complete BS.
> You could write a nice and polite letter to Litespeed, asking them nicely to help you out. It'll go a lot farther than just insulting them. You might just get lucky. Complain and whine, who'd want to deal with that?


Pretty clearly, POB is an ABG (Litespeed) owned venue for clearing out trade-ins, refurb and demo bikes that ABG owned and wanted to move. The warranties were based on the history of the frame offered and the condition. The OP bought (first owner) a demo model, not a pre-owned, so it is likely to have one of the better warranties.

The suck of this is that POB didn't have a documentation process for their varied warranties, so they can claim whatever when a claim comes up. The funny part is that they are claiming this bike came with a warranty that they never offered. 

I bought a mattress with a "20 year warranty" 10 years ago. It sagged in a few years. Thank God I got the sales guy to write "Mattress has 20 year warranty" on the bill of sale, because they acted like I was nuts until they received a photo of the document. ABG is playing a game because they didn't put it in writing.


IronDonut, I don't suppose you have any old email from the purchase?


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Looking at some of the bikes that do pop up in the archive, I'm having trouble finding ANY that didn't have lifetime warranties. Here's a demo in very good condition:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051225232151/www.preownedbikes.com/05/details.aspx?id=1621
Or a non-demo refurb, also with a lifetime:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051224104030/www.preownedbikes.com/05/details.aspx?id=1573


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*so that shows*



rx-79g said:


> Looking at some of the bikes that do pop up in the archive, I'm having trouble finding ANY that didn't have lifetime warranties. Here's a demo in very good condition:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20051225232151/www.preownedbikes.com/05/details.aspx?id=1621
> Or a non-demo refurb, also with a lifetime:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20051224104030/www.preownedbikes.com/05/details.aspx?id=1573


clearly that POB / ABG offered lifetime guarantees on Demo / used bikes

Donut is getting hosed, 2 ABG hosings this month


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

That really sucks. 

The OP should get it fixed and ABG needs to starts fixing their busted frames.

If not, we are going to know about here and riders just won't buy them much longer.
Come on ABG. Yeah you're hurting in this crappy economy but you know what- we all are too in our jobs so suck it up and just fix it. Perhaps you'll get more sales from honoring the warranty.


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

*This is starting to get annoying...*

First Merlin manages to wreck my impression of them with their anti-customer warranty service, now it is Litespeed. I had recently narrowed my hardtail mtb choice down to either a Merlin XLM or a Litespeed Citico both 29ers. This is going to be my one and only and needs to be quality and last, hence the titanium choice. Merlin's stupid antics pretty much dictated that I would go with the Litespeed, now this?

I wanted to stick with one of these because of my LBS but if this is indicative of their handling of warranties, Merlin and Litespeed can both shove it. 

:idea: Maybe I should see what Pride has to... oh, wait... never mind.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> The suck of this is that POB didn't have a documentation process for their varied warranties, so they can claim whatever when a claim comes up. The funny part is that they are claiming this bike came with a warranty that they never offered.


 Wouldn't a buyer normally get a guarantee or warranty in writing? Who is to say that the OP isn't making it up? Sounds like a case of he said she said. Caveat Emptor folks, same as it's always been.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> This is going to be my one and only and needs to be quality and last, hence the titanium choice.


Sleep easy
*Warranty
Strong Frames come with a satisfaction guarantee that covers materials and craftsmanship. In addition, fit on all custom frames is guaranteed!
"Standard Steel, Straight Gauge Titanium– Life"*http://www.strongframes.com/design_&_fabrication/fab/
Carl and Loretta are way nicer than any corporation.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yes call Carl, or Moots*



kiwisimon said:


> Sleep easy
> *Warranty
> Strong Frames come with a satisfaction guarantee that covers materials and craftsmanship. In addition, fit on all custom frames is guaranteed!
> "Standard Steel, Straight Gauge Titanium– Life"*http://www.strongframes.com/design_&_fabrication/fab/
> Carl and Loretta are way nicer than any corporation.


Quattro, both Litespeed and Merlin are under the same umbrella. It is probably the same welders on both bikes, thus why we are seeing failed welds on both brands of late

they were boutique mfrs, they are not now. The lack of support and customer service is apparent, I'd avoid any ABG product


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

kiwisimon said:


> Wouldn't a buyer normally get a guarantee or warranty in writing? Who is to say that the OP isn't making it up? Sounds like a case of he said she said. Caveat Emptor folks, same as it's always been.


Well, the fact that we can look at the website and see that there was no 2 year warranty offered doesn't really look very good for ABG, don't you think?

If your conspiracy theory goes further than this, I don't know what to tell you.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Maybe its the internet, heck it probally is, but i cant ever recall seeing a failed light speed or merlin back in the day. They were known for their absolute prusuit of perfection, and the product reflected it. 

Now, they seem to be something to be avoided. Its a shame how the mighty have fallen. 

Bill


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

IronDonut said:


> . The market for titanium bikes continues to shrink you'd think that they'd try to keep the last few remaining titanium lovers happy rather than alienating them.
> 
> .



I would not weigh in on this warranty question: as I do not know all the details and sides of the story. 

However, I have seen several posts that indicate that the Ti market is getting smaller. I DO NOT THINK THIS IS THE CASE. Ffrom where I sit i think the Ti market is growing and growing strongly in all catagories; Road, ATB, CX, and even demand for 'comfort' type Ti bikes.

I feel strongly that Ti is an important frame material that will grow in use as will steel.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

rx-79g said:


> Looking at some of the bikes that do pop up in the archive, I'm having trouble finding ANY that didn't have lifetime warranties. Here's a demo in very good condition:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20051225232151/www.preownedbikes.com/05/details.aspx?id=1621
> Or a non-demo refurb, also with a lifetime:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20051224104030/www.preownedbikes.com/05/details.aspx?id=1573


Interesting that the phone number on that POB page anwers "American Bicycle Group" when I called it today.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

DaveT said:


> Interesting that the phone number on that POB page anwers "American Bicycle Group" when I called it today.


Oooooooh, BUSTED!!!!!!!:blush2: :blush2: :blush2: :blush2: :blush2:


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

Peanya. 

The bike was purchased directly from American Bicycle Group via their now defunct website PreownedBikes.com. It was advertised on eBay as a demo bike with a new warranty I re-verified with a customer service rep that the bike actually had a new bike lifetime warranty before purchasing it. I paid extra for the demo bike vs the similar used bikes they had on the website / eBay because of the warranty.

It didn't occur to me that a well known bike manufacturer would flake out and try to screw me on a warranty so I didn't print the eBay page nor did I keep or print the email thread between me and the PreownedBikes.com customer service rep.

There is no question about the warranty on the bike I bought and there is also no question on American Bicycle Group is do anything they can to avoid living up to their commitments.

I've also owned several Trek bikes that had frame failures and while the Litespeed was the better bike Trek lived up to their warranty commitment without question. Each Trek was replaced with a similar or better Trek with no questions asked and no hassle whatsoever.

On a side note; is there a mountain bike made that will last longer than three years? I've broken aluminum, carbon fiber and now titanium framed mountain bikes. None of them seem to last. 



Peanya said:


> Most manufacturers will only honor warranties to the original seller. Regardless of what the retailer told you, in order to make a sale, you did buy a used bike. I can't find fault with Litespeed in regards to your situation.
> Think about it, people spend a LOT of money on wheels, components, and frames because someone told them they'd make them faster than what they currently have. Aside from aerodynamic benefits at higher speeds, all of it is complete BS.
> You could write a nice and polite letter to Litespeed, asking them nicely to help you out. It'll go a lot farther than just insulting them. You might just get lucky. Complain and whine, who'd want to deal with that?


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

I don't know about that. I was on a road bike ride a while back. There were about 40 riders and except me riding a Ti bike everyone else was on carbon fiber. 



bikesdirect said:


> I would not weigh in on this warranty question: as I do not know all the details and sides of the story.
> 
> However, I have seen several posts that indicate that the Ti market is getting smaller. I DO NOT THINK THIS IS THE CASE. Ffrom where I sit i think the Ti market is growing and growing strongly in all catagories; Road, ATB, CX, and even demand for 'comfort' type Ti bikes.
> 
> I feel strongly that Ti is an important frame material that will grow in use as will steel.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

Whining? I paid $5k for a bicycle from a major manufacturer who claimed the bike had a lifetime warranty. The bike broke and I want them to live up to their agreement. How is that whining?

If I wanted a disposable bike I would have bought a cheaper aluminum bike. Which in retrospect I should have done.



Peanya said:


> Most manufacturers will only honor warranties to the original seller. Regardless of what the retailer told you, in order to make a sale, you did buy a used bike. I can't find fault with Litespeed in regards to your situation.
> Think about it, people spend a LOT of money on wheels, components, and frames because someone told them they'd make them faster than what they currently have. Aside from aerodynamic benefits at higher speeds, all of it is complete BS.
> You could write a nice and polite letter to Litespeed, asking them nicely to help you out. It'll go a lot farther than just insulting them. You might just get lucky. Complain and whine, who'd want to deal with that?


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

So you'd be OK spending way too much money on an overprice bike with a manufacturer who would take any opportunity to screw you out of your warranty because of a technicality? Those are the kind of people that you want to do business with?

I'm not a big fan of Trek's bikes but when I got warranty replacements from Trek there was no question that they were going to do anything other than replace the bike free of charge. No questions asked the bikes were replaced.

If you want I'll post the entire conversation with the Litespeed warranty person online. No problem at all.

The bottom line is that American Bicycle Group appears to have a history of not standing behind their warranty commitments and that they will use any opportunity or technicality to absolve themselves of their customer commitments. It's easy to verify this with one simple google search.



Gimme Shoulder said:


> It's hard to know precisely what was said by the Litespeed warranty department person, or in what context, not being privy to the conversation. I note that, based on the time line implied by the OP's synopsis, POB might have been dissolving at just about the 2 year mark, which might have entered into that conversation. I don't know - just say'n. I also note that the OP states "...that basically (with) no proof of the lifetime warranty claim and that they would not cover it". So I'm guessing that the bike might NOT have been duely registered through the POB registration process. If the OP did register the bike, Litespeed (ABG) would surely have that on record, even if POB is gone - and this would be an important factor in the story, not mentioned by the OP.
> 
> Again, I'm not defending Litespeed or ABG. Obviously, they have some customer care issues. Just saying there's a flip side to every story.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

Hey Quattro.

Don't buy into the hype that titanium is unbreakable. I've broken aluminum (2), carbon fiber (1) and titanium (2). The only frame material I haven't broken is steel but I only owned that bike for about 6 months. 

Maybe it's possible that bike manufacturers think that the only people that ride high end light bikes weigh 150lbs and are built like whippets and they don't design for the odd 200 pounder with some muscle.

If you're going to buy a hardtail why buy it from ABG (Litespeed or Merlin). The only reason that I wouldn't buy my bike from a smaller shop is that I love full suspension bikes and none of the small shops do rear suspension worth a damn. But they can make some sweet hard tails...






Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> First Merlin manages to wreck my impression of them with their anti-customer warranty service, now it is Litespeed. I had recently narrowed my hardtail mtb choice down to either a Merlin XLM or a Litespeed Citico both 29ers. This is going to be my one and only and needs to be quality and last, hence the titanium choice. Merlin's stupid antics pretty much dictated that I would go with the Litespeed, now this?
> 
> I wanted to stick with one of these because of my LBS but if this is indicative of their handling of warranties, Merlin and Litespeed can both shove it.
> 
> :idea: Maybe I should see what Pride has to... oh, wait... never mind.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

IronDonut said:


> Hey Quattro. The only reason that I wouldn't buy my bike from a smaller shop is that I love full suspension bikes and none of the small shops do rear suspension worth a damn. But they can make some sweet hard tails...


http://www.kenteriksen.com/mountain.html but your right the smaller guys don't do cheap and good. Who does?


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

IronDonut said:


> So you'd be OK spending way too much money on an overprice bike with a manufacturer who would take any opportunity to screw you out of your warranty because of a technicality? Those are the kind of people that you want to do business with?


No. I'm OK spending what a bike is worth. (Why would you spend way too much on an overpriced bike)? Then, because it is a high dollar purchase, and the type of product that may very well have warranty issues in the future, I'd duely register the bike and retain the appropriate proof of purchase and warranty information. I only have power over my side of the transaction. I have no control over how those I do business with will conduct themselves in the future, should a warranty issue arise. But, I know that if I've done everything that was required of me at time of purchase and registration, it's much more likely that warranty process will go smoother than if I hadn't.

The reason for the registration is that it creates common records of the purchase for both parties of the transaction. I have no idea if ABG has records of non-registered purchases through Litespeed or Pre Owned Bikes. It may be that the registration and/or your presenting proof of purchase may be the only way they can validate the purchase before they can even consider the claim.


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## dualpivot (Oct 25, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> I would not weigh in on this warranty question: as I do not know all the details and sides of the story.
> 
> However, I have seen several posts that indicate that the Ti market is getting smaller. I DO NOT THINK THIS IS THE CASE. Ffrom where I sit i think the Ti market is growing and growing strongly in all catagories; Road, ATB, CX, and even demand for 'comfort' type Ti bikes.
> 
> I feel strongly that Ti is an important frame material that will grow in use as will steel.


What is the change in marketshare of Ti? growing, or is it just that the market overall is growing?


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

dualpivot said:


> What is the change in marketshare of Ti? growing, or is it just that the market overall is growing?


I think BD is seeing a lot of growth in his Ti line, but I think that is more due to the perception that with titanium the material is the most important factor, and with carbon the design is more important. So when you're offering essentially unbranded products, the titanium frame is going to be perceived well ahead of the rest. IMO.

There is no good database for relative numbers sold - manufacturers often consider that kind of data proprietary and avoid perception problems that might devalue parts of their line by exposing slow sales.

I personally believe that titanium is likely to make something of a comeback, or is already, as product and brand differentiation in a sea of similar Asian carbon frames becomes more challenging, not to mention growing unease with carbon's apparent fragility. But steel is likely to get a similar boost, especially with lighter tubesets and stainless becoming more conspicuous.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

IronDonut said:


> I don't know about that. I was on a road bike ride a while back. There were about 40 riders and except me riding a Ti bike everyone else was on carbon fiber.


I understand; but that is one data point; my research shows an increase in Ti sales. Still not as big as CF or anywhere close. But growing not shrinking.

I hope you will see more and more fellow Ti riders in the next few years.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

dualpivot said:


> What is the change in marketshare of Ti? growing, or is it just that the market overall is growing?



I see the marketshare in road & HT ATB growing
in Tri/TT and FS ATB -- it is about non existant


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## gearguywb (Dec 26, 2006)

Don't sweat what others are riding. Remember, a lot of riders walk into a local shop and plunk down mondy for the "newest, latest, greatest, lightest, my frind rides..." you get the idea.

I regularly ride with a group and am ususally the only one on something other than carbon. 2 weeks ago I had a good chuckle. (I was riding a custome lugged Kirk) A guy puls up next to me and studies the bike, then says "how old is that thing!". should have seen the look on his face when I said 8 months


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> I think BD is seeing a lot of growth in his Ti line, but I think that is more due to the perception that with titanium the material is the most important factor, and with carbon the design is more important. So when you're offering essentially unbranded products, the titanium frame is going to be perceived well ahead of the rest. IMO.
> 
> There is no good database for relative numbers sold - manufacturers often consider that kind of data proprietary and avoid perception problems that might devalue parts of their line by exposing slow sales.
> 
> I personally believe that titanium is likely to make something of a comeback, or is already, as product and brand differentiation in a sea of similar Asian carbon frames becomes more challenging, not to mention growing unease with carbon's apparent fragility. But steel is likely to get a similar boost, especially with lighter tubesets and stainless becoming more conspicuous.



I would like to correct one thing: Motobecane is not an 'essentially unbranded product'. A very small group of people may view it that way; but the general public does not [as clear by magazine reveiw responses we get, customers who prefer a Motobecane to other brands we or others can sell them, and Motobecane clothing sales which always are surprising even me]

Your points on measuring market & preception of carbon fiber are very good.
To the point on Ti; CF still outsells Ti by a lot; including on our site. 
BUT sales in Ti are growing as a percentage; questions about Ti are growing a lot, as are questions about steel.

Many people are getting bored with CF and as you mention there is some growing unease with CF. Ti and high-grade steel will benefit from that. We are adding at least 6 models in Ti in 2011 and about 10 models added as 2011s in high-grade steel. We see both Ti & Steel becoming more important in cycling doing the coming decade.

In addition, depending on currency & oil pricing; plus general economy we may see an increase in commters. Even a few thousand added commuters in the USA would be a huge increase. Just as CF is the material of choice for aero TT/Tri bikes: high-grade steel and Ti are especially positioned to benefit from an increase in commuters.

The next decade is sure to be an exciting time in cycling.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

I've seen that bike and I don't really like it.

I haven't come across a small manufacturer full suspension bike that I like. It doesn't seem like most of the small makers have the ability to engineer and build sophisticated suspension systems.



kiwisimon said:


> http://www.kenteriksen.com/mountain.html but your right the smaller guys don't do cheap and good. Who does?


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Peanya said:


> You could write a nice and polite letter to Litespeed, asking them nicely to help you out. It'll go a lot farther than just insulting them. You might just get lucky. Complain and whine, who'd want to deal with that?


You apparently have trouble with reading and comprehension. As well as some need to insult the OP. Let's say he is complaining and "whining". Doesn't matter who "wants" to deal with that. It's a customer service persons JOB to deal with it not find a loophole to F over the customer.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

Again you're trying to find fault with me where there is none. The bike was registered and I have proof of purchase. Proof of purchase was presented to their warranty dept. What I didn't have was a printout of the page they advertised the bike with a lifetime warranty. Nor did I keep the emails where their customer service rep assured me pre-purchase that the bike came with a lifetime warranty.

Given hindsight I would have done that. But I didn't because I didn't expect a major manufacturer of high priced and supposedly high quality bikes to flake out on their agreements so that I would have to produce documentation to their responsibility.

I've never in my life had a situation where a manufacturer bailed on a warranty before. My prior experience was with the exceptional warranty service that Trek offered up.

I incorrectly assumed that because I got such exceptional service from Trek that Litespeed would also offer exceptional service and I was wrong. Where Trek went out of their way to make sure the failed product was fixed or replaced Litespeed didn't.

The point here is that I don't want to do business with a company that will find every loophole and technicality to absolve themselves of responsibility. For Trek to honor their warranty I only needed to show up with the broken Trek. They didn't ask where I bought it, when I bought it, proof of purchase... nothing. I gave them the broken Trek and two weeks later I had a new Trek.

With Litespeed I offer up actual documentation; proof of purchase, purchase dates, photographs of the damage, details of how the damage occured but because I didn't print out customer service emails and web pages from their site from five years ago they are going to deny my valid warranty claim? This strikes me as shady behavior that is out of tune with the high end market that they are selling to. It's a company that I will no longer do business with.







Gimme Shoulder said:


> No. I'm OK spending what a bike is worth. (Why would you spend way too much on an overpriced bike)? Then, because it is a high dollar purchase, and the type of product that may very well have warranty issues in the future, I'd duely register the bike and retain the appropriate proof of purchase and warranty information. I only have power over my side of the transaction. I have no control over how those I do business with will conduct themselves in the future, should a warranty issue arise. But, I know that if I've done everything that was required of me at time of purchase and registration, it's much more likely that warranty process will go smoother than if I hadn't.
> 
> The reason for the registration is that it creates common records of the purchase for both parties of the transaction. I have no idea if ABG has records of non-registered purchases through Litespeed or Pre Owned Bikes. It may be that the registration and/or your presenting proof of purchase may be the only way they can validate the purchase before they can even consider the claim.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

kiwisimon said:


> Wouldn't a buyer normally get a guarantee or warranty in writing? Who is to say that the OP isn't making it up? Sounds like a case of he said she said. Caveat Emptor folks, same as it's always been.



It's a Litespeed. Litespeed supposedly has a lifetime warranty which is on their web site and all over their marketing materials and has been since the beginning of the company. 
Which they are qualifying now to a ridiculous degree since being owned by ABG. Which is also why names like Litespeed, Merlin, and Quintana Roo mean much less than they used to.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

bikesdirect said:


> I would like to correct one thing: Motobecane is not an 'essentially unbranded product'. A very small group of people may view it that way; but the general public does not [as clear by magazine reveiw responses we get, customers who prefer a Motobecane to other brands we or others can sell them, and Motobecane clothing sales which always are surprising even me]
> 
> Your points on measuring market & preception of carbon fiber are very good.
> To the point on Ti; CF still outsells Ti by a lot; including on our site.
> ...


I didn't mean that BD and/or Motebecane has no brand perception - it does, and that perception is of value, and pretty much just value. I would contrast this with a company like Cervelo that has a perception that is almost totally design/performance. A Cervelo owner will tell you about aerodynamics, low weight and shock damping. A BD customer will tell you what they paid for a complete ______ bike with ______ components. Both situations lead to purchasers who are proud of their bikes, and may want to celebrate with a jersey.

But no one is really dissecting the intrinsic performance and features of your all carbon frame (why look a gift horse in the mouth), and if you tossed it out tomorrow and replaced it with a different all carbon frame, no one would really complain about losing _______ design features, as long as the price was still good. You could also dump the Motobecane name for a different one, and your sales would harldly blip, I think. That's because the real brand here is "Bikes Direct".

That's your niche, and that's okay. But because price vs. specs is your public perception and sales motivator, you could never sell an expensive Motobecane. As soon as the frame price went from $495 to $2000, people are going to get a lot more critical of Motobecane, the brand. That's what I mean about "unbranded" - no real perception of those hidden values that create brand loyalty despite price or long waiting lists.

Don't get me wrong, here. I don't think there is anything wrong with the actual bikes you sell, and I selected the Chinese Cervelo as a counter-example because I don't believe they are worth anywhere near the money people are paying for them. But man, are they ever "branded"!


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

IronDonut said:


> Again you're trying to find fault with me where there is none. The bike was registered and I have proof of purchase. Proof of purchase was presented to their warranty dept. What I didn't have was a printout of the page they advertised the bike with a lifetime warranty. Nor did I keep the emails where their customer service rep assured me pre-purchase that the bike came with a lifetime warranty.


I'm not "trying" to find fault anywhere. Just looking at the situation objectively. If you registered the bike and have proof of purchase (It's the first time you've actually said you registered the bike in this discussion) then that's all it should take. The warranty does not indicate you have to present a copy of the warranty - only proof of purchase and registration. Therefore, the recording of the warranty would have been POB's responsibility. Yeah, I would have kept a copy of the warranty in this case, since the lifetime warranty was not common to all POB bikes. But it shouldn't be required.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Gimme Shoulder said:


> I'm not "trying" to find fault anywhere. Just looking at the situation objectively. If you registered the bike and have proof of purchase (It's the first time you've actually said you registered the bike in this discussion) then that's all it should take. The warranty does not indicate you have to present a copy of the warranty - only proof of purchase and registration. Therefore, the recording of the warranty would have been POB's responsibility. Yeah, I would have kept a copy of the warranty in this case, since the lifetime warranty was not common to all POB bikes. But it shouldn't be required.


The problem with this is trust. Registration didn't create a tamper proof record of ABG's responsibility to the customer, so here we are.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

In my opinion I've gone though every reasonable step that could be expected of a consumer. I've documented proof of purchase. I registered the bike when I received it. What I don't have is a copy of the web-page that showed the details of the bike from 5 years ago. And thats the basis they are going to use to deny my valid warranty claim. It strikes me a shady and opportunistic. Not in keeping with the high quality image that they try to project with their brand.

Given this experience in the future I'll cover myself with more documentation. I just never considered that I would have to take those steps when dealing with what I had assumed was a reputable company. I can't say that I wasn't warned... The local bike shop (former Litespeed dealer) that they should be avoided since the ABG purchase because of quality and customer support issues and I figured he was just trying to sell me on other brand. In retrospect it was good advice that I should have taken.

I've put my experience and opinion out there. I don't really have much more to say on the matter. I've been a loyal Litespeed customer for more than a decade. I currently have two of their bikes. I'm surprised and disappointed at their behavior. I'm sure I could put a lot more time and effort into pursuing this to get some relief. But the time spent pursuing it will cost more than having a 3rd party make the repair. They've alienated a lifelong loyal customer for the cost of a $200-$300 repair. 





Gimme Shoulder said:


> I'm not "trying" to find fault anywhere. Just looking at the situation objectively. If you registered the bike and have proof of purchase (It's the first time you've actually said you registered the bike in this discussion) then that's all it should take. The warranty does not indicate you have to present a copy of the warranty - only proof of purchase and registration. Therefore, the recording of the warranty would have been POB's responsibility. Yeah, I would have kept a copy of the warranty in this case, since the lifetime warranty was not common to all POB bikes. But it shouldn't be required.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

All B.S. aside, I too think you are getting hosed! Thanks for sharing your story as I'm sure it will help others out in their descisions on which bike to buy or not. I will now put all ABG brands on my personal "better think twice" list.
The more I'm on RBR the shorter my next bike list keeps getting. In a way I guess that's a good thing. I think Gunnar has just moved to the top.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

darwinosx said:


> It's a Litespeed. Litespeed supposedly has a lifetime warranty which is on their web site and all over their marketing materials and has been since the beginning of the company.
> Which they are qualifying now to a ridiculous degree since being owned by ABG. Which is also why names like Litespeed, Merlin, and Quintana Roo mean much less than they used to.


But the bike was sold through their Pre Owned Bikes unit, which cleared out used and demo bikes. Apparently not all had lifetime warranties, depending on the circumstances of the particular bike. If the bike were bought new through Litespeed or a Litespeed distributor, we'd probably not be having the discussion.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Gimme Shoulder said:


> But the bike was sold through their Pre Owned Bikes unit, which cleared out used and demo bikes. Apparently not all had lifetime warranties, depending on the circumstances of the particular bike. If the bike were bought new through Litespeed or a Litespeed distributor, we'd probably not be having the discussion.


If the bike were bought new, we might be having the discussion that Infopete started about his Cielo in that thread.


Irondonut, I hope you don't give up. They never offered a 2 year warranty, and that should help you pick them apart.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

If you purchased via ebay perhaps they can assist in pulling up the auction /item #. Worth a shot. 


FYI I also ride a Niota...love the bike and dread the possibilty of having to deal with ABG if the time should come. I looked at all the ti FS options as well and had discussions with Eriksen and Lynskey (hoping they would build me a one off) in the end the design is what won me over. Good luck.

JR


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

T K said:


> The more I'm on RBR the shorter my next bike list keeps getting


Me too. Just added ABG/Lite Speed to the list, joining Scott and Merlin who are already there. This just in the last two months of RBR activity.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Sorry ABG is screwing you over, IronDonut.

As the owner of a Merlin, I'm disappointed to see the recent threads where ABG isn't honoring its lifetime warranty.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

That was 5 years ago. There is nothing eBay is going to do now and they've also folded their online operation years ago.

Aside from Litespeed's customer support... I love the Niota. I haven't ridden another mountain bike that I like as much. So I'm interested in keeping it alive as long as possible. My other fav MTB is the Titus Racer-X and they just went out of business... I can't win.

I'm getting some titanium welding accessories for my TIG welder and I'm going to weld in a new tube myself. I'll photograph the whole process and post it online.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

I want to get back on my bike as soon as possible. I don't want to fight with them for 6 months until they finally give in and not ride. Winter is when you want to ride in Fla. Everyday that bike is down is another day I'm not riding.

I like doing fabrication work it relaxes me. I'm going to weld a new tube into this bike myself.







rx-79g said:


> If the bike were bought new, we might be having the discussion that Infopete started about his Cielo in that thread.
> 
> 
> Irondonut, I hope you don't give up. They never offered a 2 year warranty, and that should help you pick them apart.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Another option might be to look for a used Niota AL and use it's rear until your issue is resolved. If it works out you'd have a spare. Just a thought.


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

On a side note; is there a mountain bike made that will last longer than three years? I've broken aluminum, carbon fiber and now titanium framed mountain bikes. None of them seem to last.[/QUOTE]


Well, my Litespeed-built Sandvik Ti 1992 Kona HeiHei holds up pretty well. It's a hardtail, and was built in pre-suspension fork era. Lovely bike that should last forever. Want a long-lasting bike? go hard tail. My friend George has a RockyMnt ThunderBolt ti hard tail... similar straight-gauge ti frame, but from 1990! George is still very competitive and he used to race around the world at elite level. His T-Bolt is still his bike of choice. Both our bikes have been around the world on planes, have heavy mileage and went through NORBA, Grundig, and all sorts of local races. Just to say we did give those a good serious go over the years!

Also: stick with metal. Specially for a mtb. Carbon breaks and is not recyclable. You had a bad experience with a weld; it happens and I am sure you must be a hard-core solid rider. But you poped a weld; can be repaired... You are not hurt, and that is impotant.


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## MontyCrisco (Sep 21, 2008)

Hey Donut, sorry you got screwed. 

It sounds like you're going to do a DIY repair which is cool. But if you change your mind, True North Cycles in Guelph Ontario does a lot of custom work with Ti, and will also do repairs. Worth a look maybe.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

POB sounds like it was similar to the way Sears does business. If you buy any product from Sears and read the warranty the warranty specifically says that all claims must be handled by Sears and not by whatever company the item is from. In fact there is a separate sheet with bold large red print glued onto to the top of the manufactures warranty saying STOP, DO NOT CONTACT THE MANUFACTURE FOR WARRANTY ADJUSTMENTS, ALL WARRANTY ISSUES ARE TO BE HANDLED BY SEARS. Sears does everything including sending out a Sears repair person, or taking the item in and then it's sent to a Sears repair facility. So if Sears were to go out of business then the warranty would be invalid. POB had a lifetime warranty, that warranty was through them even though Litespeed may have had a lifetime warranty had you purchased it through a dealer, POB's warranty superseded Litespeed's.

But Litespeed does have major issues when it comes to upholding their warranty which I have read about on a bunch of forums over the years as well as web sites. I would never buy a Litespeed new with all the problems I've heard of...but that's just me. If it's any consolation, there are plenty of other bicycle manufactures who have problems honoring their warranties as well.


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

You know why I ride a new Giant TCR?

Because my buddy bought a new TCR SL ISP and 2 years later it cracked. He took it to the shop and within 2 weeks he had a brand new frame. I thought -hey my next ride is a Giant. 

Today I met a rider on the road who had a new Cannondale Supersix frame. It was replaced for the same reason. He's very happy. 
The fact is that some frames break from time to time. It's not brand specific. 
Us riders just don't want to get screwed out of our money.

A company that won't honor their warranty is a company that is about ready to file a chapter. I've seen this so many times.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

:thumbsup:


IronDonut said:


> That was 5 years ago. There is nothing eBay is going to do now and they've also folded their online operation years ago.
> 
> Aside from Litespeed's customer support... I love the Niota. I haven't ridden another mountain bike that I like as much. So I'm interested in keeping it alive as long as possible. My other fav MTB is the Titus Racer-X and they just went out of business... I can't win.
> 
> I'm getting some titanium welding accessories for my TIG welder and I'm going to weld in a new tube myself. I'll photograph the whole process and post it online.


We had a customer break a FLY Ti while in Africa on a tour. He took it to some welder in a village who "fixed" it. He continued to ride the bike for what must have been months. 

When he got back, we had no way of knowing if it was a defect, but I had to see this thing, so we picked up the old frame and sent him a new one.

I still have the welded one laying in my office and I often think, try this on a CF mountain bike next time you are on tour in Africa!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> :thumbsup:
> I still have the welded one laying in my office and I often think, try this on a CF mountain bike next time you are on tour in Africa!


That's a cool story. That's why both of my touring bikes are steel...ok, so is most of my road race bikes as well. I have no CF bikes and have no desire to own one.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

Agreed on metal vs carbon fiber. Metal can usually be repaired where as carbon fiber generally can't.

But he got titanium welded in Africa? I live in a city of 1.3 million in the USA and I think it'd be a chore to find a welder here that could weld Ti. There is a ton of prep work that needs to be done. The material has to be argon shielded on both sides and it has to be TIG welded...



bikesdirect said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> We had a customer break a FLY Ti while in Africa on a tour. He took it to some welder in a village who "fixed" it. He continued to ride the bike for what must have been months.
> 
> ...


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

Hey man. Can you send me your email address? I have a pretty heavy workload and may not have the time to do this fix myself. Even though I want to. Maybe we can work something out.



MontyCrisco said:


> Hey Donut, sorry you got screwed.
> 
> It sounds like you're going to do a DIY repair which is cool. But if you change your mind, True North Cycles in Guelph Ontario does a lot of custom work with Ti, and will also do repairs. Worth a look maybe.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

POB + Litespeed are the same overall corporate entity. And maybe in a court of law it could be argued that they are separate entities and therefor one doesn't bear responsibility for the other even though they have the same parent entity. But you and I and everyone else knows that American Bicycle Group own both of these entities and while they may (or may not) be legally responsible they are at least ethically responsible. 

Aside from ethics... say you're in the business of selling very expensive products to a very small group of consumers... do you want to alienate a lifelong loyal customer who has made repeated purchases for the cost of a $200 repair?

What kind of moronic business person would give up thousands in future business because they wanted to weasel out of a $200 repair?

It makes no logical sense to me.



froze said:


> POB sounds like it was similar to the way Sears does business. If you buy any product from Sears and read the warranty the warranty specifically says that all claims must be handled by Sears and not by whatever company the item is from. In fact there is a separate sheet with bold large red print glued onto to the top of the manufactures warranty saying STOP, DO NOT CONTACT THE MANUFACTURE FOR WARRANTY ADJUSTMENTS, ALL WARRANTY ISSUES ARE TO BE HANDLED BY SEARS. Sears does everything including sending out a Sears repair person, or taking the item in and then it's sent to a Sears repair facility. So if Sears were to go out of business then the warranty would be invalid. POB had a lifetime warranty, that warranty was through them even though Litespeed may have had a lifetime warranty had you purchased it through a dealer, POB's warranty superseded Litespeed's.
> 
> But Litespeed does have major issues when it comes to upholding their warranty which I have read about on a bunch of forums over the years as well as web sites. I would never buy a Litespeed new with all the problems I've heard of...but that's just me. If it's any consolation, there are plenty of other bicycle manufactures who have problems honoring their warranties as well.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

Hey man. Just found your website. Really impressive. You guys are true craftsmen. It's nice to see a few people that still go great work with their hands.



MontyCrisco said:


> Hey Donut, sorry you got screwed.
> 
> It sounds like you're going to do a DIY repair which is cool. But if you change your mind, True North Cycles in Guelph Ontario does a lot of custom work with Ti, and will also do repairs. Worth a look maybe.


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## AtlantaR6 (Sep 9, 2010)

IronDonut said:


> Don't buy into the hype that titanium is unbreakable. I've broken aluminum (2), carbon fiber (1) and titanium (2). The only frame material I haven't broken is steel but I only owned that bike for about 6 months.


I don't know man, but it sounds like its the way you ride. I've been riding pretty hardcore (not British Columbia ****, but still) mtn biking for 20 years and have YET to break a frame. I've blown shocks and handlebars and seatposts, but never a frame. I'm 205 lbs. 

Nothing to do on your pending warranty claim, but still something to point out none the less.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

IronDonut said:


> Agreed on metal vs carbon fiber. Metal can usually be repaired where as carbon fiber generally can't.
> 
> But he got titanium welded in Africa? I live in a city of 1.3 million in the USA and I think it'd be a chore to find a welder here that could weld Ti. There is a ton of prep work that needs to be done. The material has to be argon shielded on both sides and it has to be TIG welded...



I know; it is very interesting
the weld he had done in Africa was not real clean looking; but it seemed to have worked for months. And as I look at it; I bet the frame could be used for years and still be doing fine.

I am not sure how the weld was done; but it sure worked

I could even send a picture if anyone is interested


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

AtlantaR6 said:


> I don't know man, but it sounds like its the way you ride. I've been riding pretty hardcore (not British Columbia ****, but still) mtn biking for 20 years and have YET to break a frame. I've blown shocks and handlebars and seatposts, but never a frame. I'm 205 lbs.
> 
> Nothing to do on your pending warranty claim, but still something to point out none the less.


+1;

I've ridden and owned nothing but steel, except for one AL bike...granted their road bikes so the abuse is not the same as a MTB, but over the last 50 years since I started riding at the age of 6, doing BMX racing from 7 to 14, road racing from 16 to 35 including CAT 3 for 5 years, lots of riding in mountains of So Calif; and in all those years never broke a bike not even in an accident...but one accident bent one up enough to where it was totaled, but there wasn't one crack in the steel even then! It probably could have gone to a frame straightener but I was leery of trying to bend it back and maintain strength and since a car hit me and they were at fault the insurance replaced the bike. I have my last racing bike I got in 84 to this day and it's logged over 150,000 miles and it has no intentions of breaking yet. 

I have heard of some of the ultralight steel rides they built back in the steel racing days that had problems with pencil thin rear stays snapping at the bottom bracket, but even those were fairly rare and usually happened when a 180 pound plus person was attempting to ride or race a bike made for 145 pound rider. And LBS's back then weren't real helpful considering an LBS sold a friend of mine who weighed 224 pounds at 6'4" a Vitus AL racing bike...he broke 2 of those Vitus's within 1 year, Vitus replaced them under warranty but after the 2nd one broke he got a Klien; the 3rd bike he hung in his garage where it sits today some 30 years later.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Bikes Direct; which TI bike was it that broke in Africa? One of the cross models?

Of all the materials you sell, which do you think holds up the best?

I'm am thinking about next summer purchasing a Motobecane Titanium LeChamp Team Ti or the SL TI from your company. What can you tell me about the difference's between the two besides components? The frame and fork specs read the same, are they? What's been the warranty problems? (tough to answer here I know). Any other information you can provide would be great.

Thanks for your replies.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

froze said:


> Bikes Direct; which TI bike was it that broke in Africa? One of the cross models?
> 
> Of all the materials you sell, which do you think holds up the best?
> 
> ...



The Ti bike that the cyclist broke in Africa is a FLY Ti
super light XC race bike

The Le Champion Team Ti and SL Ti use the same frame
I think the Le Champion SL Ti is the best $2000 bike sold in the USA [but I happen to realy like Ti and be somewhat bias - and truth is we sell more $2000 CF bikes than Ti bikes; as CF is still the most popular 'exotic' material]

Warranty claims on Ti bikes run less than CF or AL; about the same as Steel.
All frames have warranty claims; and defect rate from brand to brand is almost exactly the same in my experience. There are more claims of defect which are actually not defects on CF frames than AL, Ti, or Steel [just part of the deal with CF]


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> I know; it is very interesting
> the weld he had done in Africa was not real clean looking; but it seemed to have worked for months. And as I look at it; I bet the frame could be used for years and still be doing fine.
> 
> I am not sure how the weld was done; but it sure worked
> ...



yes, do.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> The Ti bike that the cyclist broke in Africa is a FLY Ti
> super light XC race bike
> 
> The Le Champion Team Ti and SL Ti use the same frame
> ...


Thanks for the reply. One more question, is the SL the same exact frame and fork thus the same weight as the Team? Thus the reason for the higher cost and slightly less weight would be going from Ultrega to Dura Ace?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

froze said:


> Thanks for the reply. One more question, is the SL the same exact frame and fork thus the same weight as the Team? Thus the reason for the higher cost and slightly less weight would be going from Ultrega to Dura Ace?



Exactly
DA is a bit lighter and much more money than Ultegra

BTW; the Rival equipped le Champion Ti has been very popular; and we have lots of people waiting for the Apex version [in general, Apex group has been very well received]


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Exactly
> DA is a bit lighter and much more money than Ultegra
> 
> BTW; the Rival equipped le Champion Ti has been very popular; and we have lots of people waiting for the Apex version [in general, Apex group has been very well received]


Again thanks for the response. I took a look again at the specs of the Ultrega SL TI ($1,999) model and compared with the others and I like the Ultrega one best. It came with a better wheelset that I've heard rave reviews about; so for me the extra $400 is worth it. Again thanks for all the help on this, I appreciate it; you seem to be wanting and giving good customer service.


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## amazer98 (Aug 25, 2009)

*Hey guys,

I emailed Litespeed the following message:*
*
I was considering buying a Litespeed C2 and had met with the sales staff at my local bike shop. However, I was totally taken aback when I read a recent account on roadbikereview.com about how your company refused to stand behind its warranty. You can read the post here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=233864 I will certainly not buy a bike from your company now, and will look at alternatives. You have to realize that bad karma will come your way if you insist on cheating your customers!*

*An account manager there, who later asked not to be named on this post, wrote back this reply:*

*Forums are a great place for people to rant and bash a company when all the details might not be present. I spent only a short time reading the post you forwarded and have a few comments. The customer was just riding along and it broke, really? And then further along he stated he has broken a total of 6 bikes! I have been riding and racing since the late 80s and have never broken a frame. If you look at our current website, we have updated our warranty policy. There are some unhappy people out there who go out of their way to state their opinions. There are also a lot of untruthful people out there telling stories that are not true. There are also a lot of happy Litespeed owners out there putting tons of quality miles on Litespeed products.

I understand your concerns and the dangers on online opinions and reviews. 

Where are you located and are you currently working with a Litespeed dealer? We make some great products that can fulfill a riders every desires and be more of a product than they could imagine.

Thanks for your email and for your interest in Litespeed. I hope this email is helpful, and you can be a little more open about everything you read and sometimes think about what is really going on out there.*

*I wrote him back:*


*
Thanks for your note. My sense was that the poster on the site was not ranting or bashing, but expressing a very specific frustration with your company's not warrantying its own product, based on a technicality (the web operation that it set up a few years ago terminated, so now the parent company doesn't want to honor its former subsidiary's promises).

He didn't sound irrational or like he had an axe to grind. Also, I reviewed the comments and couldn't find the place where he said he had broken six previous bikes.

Here's a suggestion: why not investigate his claim and post a response on the website? That would go a long way toward establishing Litespeed's credibility. If the poster misrepresented the facts, then I think we'd all want to know that.*

Thanks,
Andy

[NOTE: After sending this email, I went back and found the place where the OP said he had broken 5 bikes in his life. But this is not relevant to the warranty coverage-- if the bike broke during use (as opposed to, say, running over it with a car), then it should be covered. Are cyclists not allowed to ride their bikes aggressively? I admit that it's possible the OP was riding his bike abusively, (which maybe could be grounds for negotiation), but it sounded as if he was riding along a bumpy trail and the frame just gave out.]

I'm annoyed that Litespeed has chosen to take an adversarial position in honoring its warranty, and I think we're all interesting in seeing whether it will address this issue.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Sounds like an issues between the OP and LItespeed. Not much point getting all worked up about on the internet. Seriously though, 6 broken bikes?


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## amazer98 (Aug 25, 2009)

I just got this reply from the account manager at Litespeed, in response to the email I sent him earlier today (See my post above):

*Thanks for the email and info. I do understand his frustration and there does seem to be some unclear areas on both sides. Whether we honor the Pre Owned Bikes warranty, or his situation was actually a warranty, as well as others. Unfortunately, there are some unhappy Litespeed customers out there, for whatever reason. 

He states on the 2nd page of the post :“Don't buy into the hype that titanium is unbreakable. I've broken aluminum (2), carbon fiber (1) and titanium (2). The only frame material I haven't broken is steel but I only owned that bike for about 6 months”.

Frames can and do break, there is no doubt about that, especially mountain bikes due to the riding conditions. I do not know all the details of his specific situation and warranties claims can be difficult in the cycling industry.

Believe me, I have thought about going onto forums and getting involved (many times), which could be good to get our side of the story/point across. Unfortunately we do not currently have the personnel or the time and it can create an even bigger stir when someone realizes there is a manufacturer posting. There are a lot of forums out there, which is good and bad. I have actually had my emails copied and posted on some forums. It is a very tough situation, and one I take personal. 

I have a passion for the sport and care for the company I work for.

Thanks again, and please keep me posted as you move forward on purchasing a bicycle.*


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## Gaear Grimsrud (Oct 18, 2010)

I'm thinking IronDonut may regret his frankness.

TBH, I'd be leery of replacing the frame of someone who goes through so many.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

It seems that he has punished and abused quite a few bikes. If they were all the old Vitus aluminum frames I might understand, but 5? and it what time frame?

On the other hand I would dismiss the OP as a hard abusive rider and write it all off except for one thing...I've heard other complaints about Litespeed not honoring their warranty over the years on other forums. I've got no bone to pick with Litespeed, I've never owned one, I just remember reading other complaints. I guess if a person really wanted to, which I don't because I'm not ever planning on buying a Litespeed, would be to search other forums for Litespeed problems. 

If Litespeed wants to prove us wrong then all the account manager would have to do is contact the OP and make arrangements for the bike to be either sent back to Litespeed or taken to an LBS that handles Litespeed near where the OP lives. No where in his correspondence does he mentions he is willing to do that. That concerns me.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

IMO opinion Litespeed took a big hit in public perception when Herbert left. He was their marketing guy and provided great info/insight/assistance on this an other forums. I understand that the economy has forced cut backs but I'm sure their sales were probably better when he was working issues. Just my 2 cents...


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## Jetmugg (Sep 22, 2010)

Regardless of how many frames the OP has broken in his life, a LIFETIME warranty means that he should never have to pay to have his Litespeed repaired.

Put them on the list.

SM


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Jetmugg said:


> Regardless of how many frames the OP has broken in his life, a LIFETIME warranty means that he should never have to pay to have his Litespeed repaired.
> 
> Put them on the list.
> 
> SM


"Lifetime warranty" is short for "Lifetime material and defect warranty", which means that the frame left the factory not as strong or straight as it should have. It isn't a metal fatigue warranty.

ABG is right to wonder at the treatment of a bicycle that was broken by an owner who has a tendency to break bicycles.

On the other hand, that is not their original objection. Originally, they said it was out of warranty, a warranty they claim is 2 years, which doesn't match up with any warranty they ever had. This looks bad because they 1. Stated a fake warranty time. 2. Left the question of cause open, as in "If only this had happened under warranty, we'd have fixed it". The deception of the first leaves a much worse taste in my mouth than simply saying "nope, that is not a defect".


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## "rod" (Aug 10, 2009)

It doesn't matter how many frames he's broken. That wasn't even their initial reason not to replace it. Check out the Better Business Bureau rating. 

http://www.bbb.org/chattanooga/busi...american-bicycle-group-in-ooltewah-tn-6008451

Avoid at all costs!


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## tashi (Apr 11, 2005)

amazer98: Does this account manager know you're posting his emails on this thread? I know you left his name out, but is it really appropriate to repost person to person correspondence if one party doesn't know it will be posted? Your intentions are good I think, but I doubt I'd be happy if my correspondence was being publicized without me knowing. Paraphrasing may be more appropriate.



On frame breakage/warranty: I've broken at least 5 frames in the last 17 years of riding - all the ones bought new were warrantied. I've warrantied broken forks as well. Thanks Kona, Marzocchi and Specialized!


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> "Lifetime warranty" is short for "Lifetime material and defect warranty", which means that the frame left the factory not as strong or straight as it should have. It isn't a metal fatigue warranty.
> 
> ABG is right to wonder at the treatment of a bicycle that was broken by an owner who has a tendency to break bicycles.
> 
> On the other hand, that is not their original objection. Originally, they said it was out of warranty, a warranty they claim is 2 years, which doesn't match up with any warranty they ever had. This looks bad because they 1. Stated a fake warranty time. 2. Left the question of cause open, as in "If only this had happened under warranty, we'd have fixed it". The deception of the first leaves a much worse taste in my mouth than simply saying "nope, that is not a defect".


I agree with this. ABG doesn't have to rubber-stamp a warranty claim just because a bike broke; but there does need to be good-faith efforts to better understand if it's something that is a reasonable warranty claim, or something that was over/misused. 

I see nothing to claim that ABG (or their rep in the form of a dealer) put eyes to the bike and then said 'sorry, but no.' Regardless of the final outcome, it's wrong if that didn't occur. 

FWIW, the dealer that sold me my Solano stopped carrying them because they became 'unreliable' in his words. Not the bikes so much, but the company in it's business dealings. 

I've had separate discussions with a former employee about some things that further changed my mind about buying from them in the future. I don't feel like going into it right now - it'd feel sort of hearsay-ish - but it is searchable on these forums. For what it's worth, I did get satisfaction on my particular problem for the price of shipping and the willingness to do the actual work myself. It did take a bit of negotiation to get it there, but it did.

OP: Sorry for your luck. I can't say that they owe you a new bike or even a repair, but they do owe you an honest hearing on the matter. As you tell it, it's not there, and it doesn't seem to be in dispute by them.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

danl1 said:


> OP: Sorry for your luck. I can't say that they owe you a new bike or even a repair, but they do owe you an honest hearing on the matter. As you tell it, it's not there, and it doesn't seem to be in dispute by them.


That was my earlier point. Supposedly the LiteSpeed Rep knew of these post and were reading them, yet he made no offer to have arrangements for the bike to be seen! Regardless if the OP broke 1 bike or 100 bikes, any manufacture worth their salt would and should see a broken bike to determine if it's a warranty issue. LiteSpeed won't do that; and the BBB report another poster gave with an F grade is probably why, and goes hand in hand with the other poor warranty handling problems from LiteSpeed on other forums.

Don't forget to that LiteSpeed also owns Merlin and Quintana Roo. More potential warranty problems?

Eventually LiteSpeed will learn their lesson, when sales drop so dramatically their forced to close their doors...maybe that's why they don't want to pay out on warranties because their on the verge of doing just that...closing their doors? In fact back in 1/13/09 a report came out they had to lay off 25% of their work force. They then in desperation hired Tim Lane as a design consultant who developed, designed and engineered some of the worlds most advanced bicycle frames and components, and most recently for Felt DA and AR bikes which both won design awards. 

I guess there is a reason why Specialized doubled their work force while AGB has not rehired any of the 25% staff they laid off.


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## Bridgestone (Sep 6, 2007)

AGB & LITESPEED off my list for my new bike this spring.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

I have exchanged a few polite emails with ABG about what appears to be a warranty trend. I think it is important to give companies the feedback to fix problems.

I don't think it is cool to post personal email exchanges on a forum, though.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

OP, I guess it's safe to assume that their "lifetime warranty" means that the frame is warrantied for its lifetime. When it breaks, the warranty is over.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

question. How do we know what litespeed said regarding the denial of warranty? All we have is the op's representation.

I must be the lucky one as they repaired my blue ridge without any questions.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Herbie said:


> question. How do we know what litespeed said regarding the denial of warranty?


You don't. This is the Internet. Anyone can post (almost) anything. We have the right to believe it or not. And anyone, even the accused, have the right to refute what's written. Look at the Serotta forum where Serotta came along and did just that -

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=62594

So why doesn't Litespeed?


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> You don't. This is the Internet. Anyone can post (almost) anything. We have the right to believe it or not. And anyone, even the accused, have the right to refute what's written. Look at the Serotta forum where Serotta came along and did just that -
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=62594
> 
> So why doesn't Litespeed?


I don't know if Serotta would have posted either if the issue wasn't as cut and dry as rust.

Ti bikes don't bend, don't corrode, don't delaminate, don't have a la Trek paint cracks. They either break, or don't. And when they break it takes more than just a glance to tell why.

This Niota is claimed to be out of warranty. Litespeed could come and post on here "the Niota is out of warranty", and it wouldn't change the argument one bit. We have all the information that pertains to this issue, unlike the Serotta example where no one brought up the reason for the rejection.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

You are correct. this is the internet. anyone can post anything whether true or not. You can choose to believe anything, true or not. My experience was different. My litespeed was repaired, and that has something to do with my preference for more facts. Maybe I was just lucky.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Herbie said:


> You are correct. this is the internet. anyone can post anything whether true or not. You can choose to believe anything, true or not. My experience was different. My litespeed was repaired, and that has something to do with my preference for more facts. Maybe I was just lucky.


You had a Litespeed from PreOwnedBikes?

Lot's of people have had their Litespeeds successfully warrantied.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

*Watching a PR trainwreck as it happens...*

I don't know the validity of the OP's complaint. His rendition sounds straightforward but breaking 5 frames is excessive in my experience. However, I am not a big guy and I am not an aggressive MTB rider.

But ABG is screwing itself. The guy claims that the frame failed because of a poor quality weld and reports evidence to support the claim. He is asking for a warranty repair. LS has not made Niotas in a long time. He can't be asking for a new Niota.

ABG should have said that the OP and ABG need to work out the details of what actually happened to determine who is responsible for what cost. I assume the failure rate of LS frames is very low and the cost of a warranty frame repair is minimal relative to the number of frames that ABG sells in a year.

ABG should realize that bad PR (like the raves of Mel Gibson) lives forever on the internet. Saving a couple hundred dollars on a legitimate complaint against the loss of sales due to people doing searches on "Is Litespeed a good brand?" for the next 10 years is extremely myopic.

ABG may be able to legally separate itself from POB and the Lynskey LS group. But, again, this is a PR mistake. ABG wants to get customers who still associate Litespeed with a high level of quality.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

KenS said:


> ABG should realize that bad PR (like the raves of Mel Gibson) lives forever on the internet. Saving a couple hundred dollars on a legitimate complaint against the loss of sales due to people doing searches on "Is Litespeed a good brand?" for the next 10 years is extremely myopic.
> 
> ABG may be able to legally separate itself from POB and the Lynskey LS group. But, again, this is a PR mistake. ABG wants to get customers who still associate Litespeed with a high level of quality.


Put this in perspective guys. While this issue and other alleged ABG shenanigans might be getting a lot of play on this forum (and others), it's still a small percentage of the total population in the market for higher end bikes that is being exposed to it. I doubt (and ABG is probably counting on the assumption) that all of the bad press they're getting here won't cause more than a little ripple in their sales. Now, as some have suggested, ABG may possibly be in a tailspin anyway (either financially or managerially). But if that is the case, the warranty issues are probably more of a symptom rather than a cause.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

IronDonut said:


> Agreed on metal vs carbon fiber. Metal can usually be repaired where as carbon fiber generally can't.
> 
> ...


sorry to hear about your frame, but that's just not true about carbon fiber. It's probably the easiest to repair and the only material that can be easily repaired beyond a lug area. Besides, there's lots of alloys that can't be welded - Vitus used one on their aluminum frames, which required bonding (which required going back to the factory)...


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> sorry to hear about your frame, but that's just not true about carbon fiber. It's probably the easiest to repair and the only material that can be easily repaired beyond a lug area. Besides, there's lots of alloys that can't be welded - Vitus used one on their aluminum frames, which required bonding (which required going back to the factory)...


I don't know about 1970s TIG technology, but I would doubt that Vitus tubing was anything special. Bonding was easy and the business of the company that developed the 979 for Vitus.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*maybe because*



crossracer said:


> Maybe its the internet, heck it probally is, but i cant ever recall seeing a failed light speed or merlin back in the day. They were known for their absolute prusuit of perfection, and the product reflected it.
> 
> Now, they seem to be something to be avoided. Its a shame how the mighty have fallen.
> 
> Bill


they were once small businesses that made their reputation on quality and customer service that were then bought out by a conglomerate that lacks the above, but simply purchased the reputation when they bought the companies


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

*That is very unfortunate...*

That is a very unfortunate response from ABG/Litespeed. It read more like a political attack than a legitimate response from a company. I'm thinking that the author wasn't intending that response to be posted to the public and was attempting to discredit my claim and make a sale.

My position; I'm not ranting I'm simply sharing an unpleasant experience I had dealing with Litespeed. I'm also sharing my personal disappointment as a former loyal customer that my loyalty is being sold out for a $200-$300 repair. They'd rather get rid of my as a customer than own up and fix this bike. Further in my opinion Litespeed/ABG should stand behind the warranty claims of they're now folded online operation PreownedBikes.com even if they aren't legally bound to do so. It's the ethical thing to do.

As far as me abusing bikes. I don't abuse them. But I do ride them and I am a muscular 200lbs. I'm not a flyweight 140lb whippet. The manufacturers need to take into account that some bigger and more powerful riders will and do ride their products and they should either come with a maximum rider weight warning OR they should be built to take the strain. If they don't do either of those things they should honor their commitments.

With respect to my particular broken bike. I'm not a welding expert but I do have some limited experience in fabrication and from my research (and in my opinion) it looks like my Litespeed Niota failed because of a faulty weld. The inside of the tube is purple and from what I've read and researched with titanium welding the reason for a purple/blue color is lack of post cooling argon shielding which causes the still hot titanium to react with the air and become brittle. I'll post some pictures of it online. Maybe someone with more experience on the subject could post an opinion.

As far as the bikes that I've broken over the last 22 years of riding:

1) Trek 1000 - chain-stay crack at bottom bracket - replaced by Trek
2) Trek Y-11 - crack in frame - replaced by Trek
3) Gary Fisher Sugar - bottom bracket crack - replaced by Trek
4) Litespeed Niota - Replaced by Litespeed 
5) Litespeed Niota - Warrenty Claim Deny

The reason that I switched from Trek to Litespeed was because I believed their bikes to be more durable than the Treks which I had been breaking. In my experience the Litespeeds didn't prove to be any more durable.

I know another bigger guy that also rides a Niota (he weighs 210lbs) he has broken his Niota over and over again. The last time I spoke with him he was on his 3rd repair/replacement. From that small statistical sample the reliability for the Niota for larger riders doesn't look good.

Finally; I've presented my experience as factually and honestly as possible. I like Litespeed's bikes a lot. It's unfortunate that I will never be able to buy another one because I refuse to contribute to a company that has treated me poorly. I'll have to figure out how to repair my beloved Niota so I can keep riding it.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

I could post the email interactions I had with the customer service rep to prove my point but I think it would be in poor taste so I'm not going to do it.



Herbie said:


> question. How do we know what litespeed said regarding the denial of warranty? All we have is the op's representation.
> 
> I must be the lucky one as they repaired my blue ridge without any questions.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

stevesbike said:


> sorry to hear about your frame, but that's just not true about carbon fiber. It's probably the easiest to repair and the only material that can be easily repaired beyond a lug area. Besides, there's lots of alloys that can't be welded - Vitus used one on their aluminum frames, which required bonding (which required going back to the factory)...


Part of this is false. AL information is ture but CF is not easier to repair then steel. It's only been in the last 3 years of so that the first company, Calfee, started a repair center for damaged CF frames, and even they say that about 50% can't be repaired, and if it can be it's expensive enough that it could exceed the value of the frame. Add on top of that, that once CF is damaged it's sudden and completely damaged whereas with steel most of time it just needs bending back, once in while they have to replace a tube which is is way simplier then repairing a broken CF tube. And if your steel frame should crack 1,000 miles from home it can be welded by almost any good welder, CF breaks...tough; no small wonder that steel is the material of choice for touring bikes. In either case, steel or CF, usually the cost to repair (not including a simple weld or frame alignment) will exceed the value of the frame.

Supposedly there use to be a service rendered by Vitus and Alan and maybe others that could rebond those bonded external lugged frames, but I don't think anyone is doing that anymore, but I could be wrong.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

KenS said:


> ...LS has not made Niotas in a long time. He can't be asking for a new Niota...


Not true they stopped earlier this year...I have a 2010 built Niota.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

*Another Warranty Denied by Litespeed*

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=7591325

The web is rife with these stories...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Probably you needed to read this book --
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1445729156/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk


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## draganM (Nov 27, 2001)

Gimme Shoulder said:


> Put this in perspective guys. While this issue and other alleged ABG shenanigans might be getting a lot of play on this forum (and others), it's still a small percentage of the total population in the market for higher end bikes that is being exposed to it. I doubt (and ABG is probably counting on the assumption) that all of the bad press they're getting here won't cause more than a little ripple in their sales.


 think so? Google ABG bicycles and what pops up is not good


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> OP, I guess it's safe to assume that their "lifetime warranty" means that the frame is warrantied for its lifetime. When it breaks, the warranty is over.


OP, go after them :thumbsup: 
From the Litespeed Warranty page ... 
http://www.litespeed.com/current/warranty.aspx?all=t



> *Litespeed Limited Warranty*
> Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner. Litespeed branded forks, paint and decals are warranted for 1 year against defects in material and workmanship. Alignment and water bottle bosses are warranted for 30 days from date of purchase. This warranty is redeemable only by the original owner when purchased and maintained through an authorized Litespeed dealer.


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## infopete (Nov 19, 2010)

Hi

do you think you could start a blog on this and then we can link our blogs together.

http://americanbicyclegroup.wordpress.com


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## temoore (Mar 9, 2004)

IronDonut said:


> POB + Litespeed are the same overall corporate entity. And maybe in a court of law it could be argued that they are separate entities and therefor one doesn't bear responsibility for the other even though they have the same parent entity. But you and I and everyone else knows that American Bicycle Group own both of these entities and while they may (or may not) be legally responsible they are at least ethically responsible.
> 
> Aside from ethics... say you're in the business of selling very expensive products to a very small group of consumers... do you want to alienate a lifelong loyal customer who has made repeated purchases for the cost of a $200 repair?
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, from a legal perspective, it does make sense. As an example, many larger home builders use unique LLC companies for each development they do. That way if there is a lawsuit, you can sue the smaller LLC, which does not have significant assets, but you can't sue the larger entity. Not good for the consumer.


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## IronDonut (Dec 3, 2010)

I understand why a company would structure itself this way. Almost every company does this.

What I don't understand is why I company would throw away a loyal customer over the cost of a fairly simple/cheap repair.



temoore said:


> Unfortunately, from a legal perspective, it does make sense. As an example, many larger home builders use unique LLC companies for each development they do. That way if there is a lawsuit, you can sue the smaller LLC, which does not have significant assets, but you can't sue the larger entity. Not good for the consumer.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

IronDonut said:


> I understand why a company would structure itself this way. Almost every company does this.
> 
> What I don't understand is why I company would throw away a loyal customer over the cost of a fairly simple/cheap repair.


Because a lot of companies today don't see the people that do business with them, we're just a number to them and thus are treated as such; and then add on top of all that the greed factor and you have your answer.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> Because a lot of companies today don't see the people that do business with them, we're just a number to them and thus are treated as such; and then add on top of all that the greed factor and you have your answer.


When was this magical age when companies weren't like that?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> When was this magical age when companies weren't like that?


Back before the 70's most companies were like that, after computers came in and companies started having their stuff manufactured overseas then they became very impersonal.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> Back before the 70's most companies were like that, after computers came in and companies started having their stuff manufactured overseas then they became very impersonal.


Ah, the evil computer explanation.

Hey, there are lot's of companies out there, some do great by their customers, some don't. That's the way it has always been - "Buyer beware" is not a phrase that popped up in the '80s. The frustration with Litespeed is that they were a great company under the Lynskey's. 

My memories of the seventies were of some of the lowest quality consumer products, ever.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

froze said:


> Back before the 70's most companies were like that, after computers came in and companies started having their stuff manufactured overseas then they became very impersonal.


Really?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yes lots of great*



rx-79g said:


> Ah, the evil computer explanation.
> 
> Hey, there are lot's of companies out there, some do great by their customers, some don't. That's the way it has always been - "Buyer beware" is not a phrase that popped up in the '80s. The frustration with Litespeed is that they were a great company under the Lynskey's.
> 
> My memories of the seventies were of some of the lowest quality consumer products, ever.


small businesses who build their reputations on quality product and great customer service get picked off by larger conglomerates who sell the name, but sadly, no longer the things that made the name so popular


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> small businesses who build their reputations on quality product and great customer service get picked off by larger conglomerates who sell the name, but sadly, no longer the things that made the name so popular


Well, sometimes. And other times you have stories like the Mini, new life after being bought by BMW. And you have all the small companies with great products or service that didn't make it because they didn't have the reach.

I don't think the corporate boogieman scenerio always plays out.


Anyway, Litespeed has been owned by ABG for nearly half of its existance. The problems are fairly recent.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Camilo said:


> Really?


Really!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> Ah, the evil computer explanation.
> 
> My memories of the seventies were of some of the lowest quality consumer products, ever.


Your memory is only partially correct, cars were the worst ever starting at 75 and not ending until early 90's, personally I still think their being made poorly in the durablity factor. But regular appliances and electronics were better in the 70's then today. When I say better I mean they lasted longer, not meaning TV's had better picture quality for example, but a TV built then would last easily 20 years, today the electronic gurus will tell you your lucky to get 10. Appliances made in the 70's could easily last 25 to 30 years, my mother in law still uses a Maytag washer and dryer she bought in 68 and she had 4 kids back then. No your wrong for the most part, most things we buy today are way worst then they were in the 70's, mostly because the majority of junk we buy today is made in China...not saying all stuff coming out of China is bad, but most of it is.


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## giantdefy2 (Dec 2, 2010)

TVs and washing machines of the 70s.....hmmm, does anyone remember the Evil Kneivel toy that you launch off a pad by spinning a wheel? That was cool! how bout we talk about banana splits and candy bars to go more off topic!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

giantdefy2 said:


> TVs and washing machines of the 70s.....hmmm, does anyone remember the Evil Kneivel toy that you launch off a pad by spinning a wheel? That was cool! how bout we talk about banana splits and candy bars to go more off topic!


I don't remember the Evil Knivel toy, but I had a Mattel Varoom bike as my first bike...but I hated the damm motor so I broke it "accidently" of course so I could have an excuse to remove the motor. I wanted a 5 speed stingray but my dad was weird and thought I would like the Varoom better...he had a habit of doing that.


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## SilentAssassin (Jul 29, 2010)

Buddy of mine had a litespeed and the frame had some defect. He said they sent him a new frame and all was well. Good company IMO.

Best thing the op can do is not buy from litespeed again, or fight it in court? BD has some great Ti offerings as well so might want to look at going that route.


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