# Chinese Titanium Frames



## fab4

Has anybody have any experiance buying chinese made ti frames? If you do, what's the ride quality, finish quality and durability?


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## krisdrum

There are a few extensive threads if you do a search under XACD.

I ride a chinese made ti frame, by way of Singapore and love it. Not made by XACD from what I understand though. The quality and ride are top notch as far as I am concerned. Never ridden a boutique ti frame, so not sure how much I really have to compare it to, but it works for me.


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## LOUISSSSS

Pretty interested in this, where can I find info on the ti models and pricing??


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## spookyload

Look at Habanero cycles too. They are chinese made and offer a decent warranty too.


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## krisdrum

Google is your friend: http://www.xacd.com.cn/


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## rx-79g

Many Ti frames that don't say "made in USA" are Chinese. That includeds the Salsa Ti, Pedalforce carbon/ti bike, Airborne, Habenero and whatever you see on Ebay.


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## LOUISSSSS

Anyone know tHe prices and geo of the ti road frames?

Edit: the prices they gave me
Frame $495
Shipping $155
Bank fee $40

Total $690

They also said they can do custom geo ti for 535.

I'm thinking of doing the custom and copying the caad10 geo since i already have a relaxed geo carbon frame


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## ekgregory

Hello,

First time poster. Saw this thread and thought I might add my small bit of experience to the mix.

I'd been looking at Chinese carbon for a while, but had always been interested in picking up a ti frame for all the usual reasons. I've been intrigued by XACD, but unsure about specifying every detail of the frame.

I actually found a new, Chinese-made 57cm ti frame on ebay - sold by a guy in the US who is trying to start up his own brand of ti and carbon frames. He told me it's not made by XACD, but wouldn't tell me who made it specifically. This was his last road frame he was trying to sell off before ordering a new batch, so he priced it really low. I ended up buying the frame for $361 shipped - very few people bid on it; probably because the brand was completely unknown (no website or information at all).

I then purchased a full carbon fork in matte 3k, directly from one of the oft-discussed Chinese carbon sellers which looks to be very similar to the 3T Funda. I wanted a straight-bladed fork, and this one fit the bill.

I've received both items. Actual frame weight is 1475g or 3.25 lb (seller claimed 3.03 lbs). Actual fork weight is 375 g, which was shockingly dead on, to the gram. I'm not too bummed about the frame weight, as I'd read everything I could on buying cycling products from China and knew I should expect some discrepancy in weight. I was told the frame used some double-butted tubes, but given the weight I find that very unlikely. Ultimately, I'm using this frame for recreational riding and a few triathlons, so a little bit of extra weight isn't too much of a concern for me.

I'll be building the bike up at the end of January with full Ultegra 6700 and a basic aluminum cockpit.

I'm attaching some pictures of the frame and fork. The welds look clean to me, but I have a completely untrained eye, so I can't speak to the quality. Anybody care to weigh in?

Some notes: 57cm frame, Effective Top Tube is about 565 cm. Integrated headset, standard English BB.

A few notes:

- I'm intrigued by the s-bend seat and chainstays - curious to see how they affect the ride. Almost look like mountain bike stays. Most high-end ti frames I've seen have straight stays. 

- Aesthetically, I'm not a huge fan of the flared headtube. Interesting design choice on this frame... I assume it's more expensive to use this type instead of a standard, straight tube. I actually didn't realize it looked like that until I received the frame.

- The dropouts look nice.

Apologies for the length of this post. I'm excited to see how this frame works out. I'd love to build up a high-end ti frame at some point, but, funds as they are, I hope this one works out for while.


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## paper warrior

I wish I had that much luck on ebay. 

But there's another importer on ebay selling Predator brand bikes for $730 total. Any feedback?? Apparently reviving the GT triple triangle.


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## SilentAssassin

good luck with warranty issues on that


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## rx-79g

ekgregory said:


>


Is there enough metal around the dropout to support the end of the quick release? Those cutouts look like they cut inside the diameter of the QR ends.


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## ekgregory

Fair question - I hope it's not an issue. I'll toss on the rear wheel this evening and see how it looks in the dropout.

Re: warranty issues, when I bought the frame and fork I understood the risks associated with purchasing small brand / no name products. To me, the cost was low enough that I felt it was worth taking a chance on them, just as everyone that's purchased carbon frames from China has done.

That being said, the frame was purchased from the US retailer of the brand, so I'd hope that I would be supported as a customer should an issue arise. Hopefully, I won't have any problems to deal with when all is said an done.


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## rx-79g

ekgregory said:


> Fair question - I hope it's not an issue. I'll toss on the rear wheel this evening and see how it looks in the dropout.
> 
> Re: warranty issues, when I bought the frame and fork I understood the risks associated with purchasing small brand / no name products. To me, the cost was low enough that I felt it was worth taking a chance on them, just as everyone that's purchased carbon frames from China has done.
> 
> That being said, the frame was purchased from the US retailer of the brand, so I'd hope that I would be supported as a customer should an issue arise. Hopefully, I won't have any problems to deal with when all is said an done.


Further thoughts:

Your headtube looks bigger on the bottom than top. Is it intended for the newer tapered forks 1 1/4" bottom, 1 1/8" top?

Curved stays aren't uncommon. Seven does that, for instance. And my old Litespeed MTB has them, too.

Who cares about a warranty at half the price!


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## ColoRoadie

If a weld cracks, a decent shop local can fix it for less than the cost of shipping the bike to the retailer for warranty work....and its done the same day. At that price, I wouldn't care about warranty either. The welds look pretty good too...far better than some of the custom US shops I've seen in here.


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## ekgregory

That's good to know about the possibility of having a weld repaired locally - I'll definitely keep that in mind.

The headtube is actually 1 1/8" top and bottom - it definitely looks tapered because of that flare. The seller couldn't tell me the exact headset spec (which was a bit disconcerting) but I took it to my shop and had them measure the frame to get the right specs. 

I also couldn't get an answer on what the fork rake should be. I assumed 43mm, and the fork I got is 45mm - I'm hoping a 2mm difference in rake will have a very small effect on the handling.

I still think the headtube flare is pretty crazy looking... I prefer a straight tube I guess. Haven't seen many frames with that style.

I didn't realize Seven did curved stays either. It's interesting... This frame definitely doesn't look like the XACD frames I've seen online, and it doesn't look like any of the cheaper Ti frames being sold on ebay, etc. Still a bit curious about its origins.

I'm glad you think the welds look good - they looked pretty nice to me as well, but I'm not an expert.

If people are interested, I can post some pics of the build - should be done over the next couple of weeks.


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## arshak

What's the seller's name on flea bay?



ekgregory said:


> That's good to know about the possibility of having a weld repaired locally - I'll definitely keep that in mind.
> 
> The headtube is actually 1 1/8" top and bottom - it definitely looks tapered because of that flare. The seller couldn't tell me the exact headset spec (which was a bit disconcerting) but I took it to my shop and had them measure the frame to get the right specs.
> 
> I also couldn't get an answer on what the fork rake should be. I assumed 43mm, and the fork I got is 45mm - I'm hoping a 2mm difference in rake will have a very small effect on the handling.
> 
> I still think the headtube flare is pretty crazy looking... I prefer a straight tube I guess. Haven't seen many frames with that style.
> 
> I didn't realize Seven did curved stays either. It's interesting... This frame definitely doesn't look like the XACD frames I've seen online, and it doesn't look like any of the cheaper Ti frames being sold on ebay, etc. Still a bit curious about its origins.
> 
> I'm glad you think the welds look good - they looked pretty nice to me as well, but I'm not an expert.
> 
> If people are interested, I can post some pics of the build - should be done over the next couple of weeks.


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## SilentAssassin

ColoRoadie said:


> If a weld cracks, a decent shop local can fix it for less than the cost of shipping the bike to the retailer for warranty work....and its done the same day. At that price, I wouldn't care about warranty either. The welds look pretty good too...far better than some of the custom US shops I've seen in here.


Over $600 for a frame and you don't care about the warranty? That doesn't make any sense.


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## rx-79g

SilentAssassin said:


> Over $600 for a frame and you don't care about the warranty? That doesn't make any sense.


Neither does the number $600. I read $362.


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## ekgregory

Yup, $361, not $600.

And I didn't say I don't care about the warranty. I do. I took a risk purchasing from a brand I didn't know much about. It was a calculated risk, and, as I said before, given the cost of the frame, I felt it was totally worth it. Besides that, the seller does offer a warranty, and is based in the US.

I always factor warranties into my purchasing habits, but that doesn't mean I purchase products expecting them to fail. I've had quite a few instances where warranties haven't helped me out at all when a product I've purchased has broken - such is life.

ColoRoadie has a fair point about getting the frame repaired locally in the event I have a problem - makes sense to me. I'll definitely keep it in mind once I'm riding the frame.

Didn't get a chance to pop the rear wheel in to check out the dropout this evening, but I'll do it this weekend.


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## rx-79g

You might be better off running the rear cable on the right of the seat tube and crossing over behind the seat stays. It will probably be more direct and look better.

Otherwise, nice!


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## ekgregory

*Built!*

After a brief delay, the bike is fully built and ready to ride.

The only frame oddity I experienced while building was that the rear brake guides were welded onto the wrong side of the frame (R instead of L) for some reason, so I had to run the cable around to the right side in the rear - not a big deal. 

The biggest delay was that the fork I ordered from a factory in China turned out to be a 650c, so I had to wait a month or so to receive a 700c replacement (luckily, they didn't charge me or ask me to send the fork back, they shipped me out a new one at no charge). Now all I have to do is figure out what to do with the 650c fork. 

Built up with the components from my old bike - full Ultegra, Ritchey Pro aluminum cockpit, and Aksium wheels (wish I could afford something lighter, but I'll ride 'em till I wear them out).

Haven't had a chance to weight the bike yet, but I know it's 2 - 3 lbs lighter than the previous aluminum frame and heavy fork I had. Total cost was around $500 for the frame, fork, and headset.

Took it for a quick spin today, and it feels _much_ faster than my previous frame - the geometry is much more aggressive, and it seems like the frame is much stiffer (in a good way).

This was my first real build from the ground up - it was a blast. A small part of me wonders if I should've gone carbon with an FM015/28, but I really like this frame - it's pretty unique, and I think it stands out without being too flashy. I'm very happy with my decision.

Looking forward to putting some serious miles on it over the summer.

If anyone else has any Chinese titanium builds, I'd love to see the results. Haven't seen too many out there.


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## ekgregory

rx-79g said:


> You might be better off running the rear cable on the right of the seat tube and crossing over behind the seat stays. It will probably be more direct and look better.
> 
> Otherwise, nice!


Thanks! And good call - that would probably look a lot cleaner.


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## spookyload

Again...the benefit of habanero is the do offer a warranty. Nice ride on the pictures btw. Very nice.


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## danl1

ekgregory said:


> Thanks! And good call - that would probably look a lot cleaner.


 You might also look at over the top and in front of the seat tube. Probably not ideal, but I've seen it done for lesser reasons.


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## rx-79g

spookyload said:


> Again...the benefit of habanero is the do offer a warranty. Nice ride on the pictures btw. Very nice.


$361.

Do you _really_ think a 5 year warranty is really worth an extra $600?


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## DiegoMontoya

$361 for that frame is a steal. 

Who cares about a warranty at that price? 

Beautiful bike. Congrats!


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## PBrooks

0oooo


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## Dajianshan

Yes Brooks, you could get a stealth ti bike for your stealth carbon.


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## spookyload

rx-79g said:


> $361.
> 
> Do you _really_ think a 5 year warranty is really worth an extra $600?


Nope. But that was a one time good deal at that price. I would guess he usually sells frames for closer to $700 usually. For an extra $200 I would gladly deal with habanero because it will get here in a week, and warranty support is just as fast. You can also have custom work done with them for a nominal fee too.


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## 92gli

Looks like you scored a great deal. At that price I wouldn't be too worried about the warranty either. The cutouts in the dropouts do look sketchy though.

IMO if you're over $600 it would be worth spending a bit more and getting a frame and fork from bikes direct for $999. They're made by the same factory that does the ritchey break-away frames and at least you have someone here in the states to handle any warranty issues.


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## Len J

ColoRoadie said:


> If a weld cracks, a decent shop local can fix it for less than the cost of shipping the bike to the retailer for warranty work....and its done the same day. At that price, I wouldn't care about warranty either. The welds look pretty good too...far better than some of the custom US shops I've seen in here.


You know of a shop that can weld ti? I'm skeptical.

Len


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## JustTooBig

Len J said:


> You know of a shop that can weld ti? I'm skeptical.
> 
> Len


BINGO!! 

Ti typically (at the builder's) goes through a chemical bath to remove impurities before welding, then needs to have some type of purging or displacement system in place to perform the weld in an oxygen-free environment. Even if you discount the need for a chemical bath, you don't just toss a ti frame up on the workbench and start welding. I'll venture a guess that shops equipped to deal with ti welding are not at all common.


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## Len J

JustTooBig said:


> BINGO!!
> 
> Ti typically (at the builder's) goes through a chemical bath to remove impurities before welding, then needs to have some type of purging or displacement system in place to perform the weld in an oxygen-free environment. Even if you discount the need for a chemical bath, you don't just toss a ti frame up on the workbench and start welding. I'll venture a guess that shops equipped to deal with ti welding are not at all common.


It seems from this and other responses that manyu people believe that welkding Ti is just like welding steel.....LOL

For less than $400, if it failed, I'd throw it away............although I'd sure put a lot of hard miles on the flats before I'd do a 50 mph descent on it.

Len


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## arshak

I have both road and cross frames, the road frame from 2005 and the cross frame from January of 2008. I have put in some miles over that period and ridden them pretty hard and fast down some mountains. I have not had a problem yet. Only thing that I would change on the road frame would be the head tube. I would add another 3/4 of an inch to the length. That 23mm of spacers kinda seems funky.


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## Len J

arshak said:


> I have both road and cross frames, the road frame from 2005 and the cross frame from January of 2008. I have put in some miles over that period and ridden them pretty hard and fast down some mountains. I have not had a problem yet. Only thing that I would change on the road frame would be the head tube. I would add another 3/4 of an inch to the length. That 23mm of spacers kinda seems funky.


And all that proves is that some of the frames from chinese plants don't have welding problems. The real question is...what are their failure rates and how do they compare to other manufacturers? No one really has all the facts, but what we do have are ancedotal evidence......when was the last time you heard of a Moots weld failure?, how about Erikson?, Serotta?, Seven? Merlin?, Spectrum?........yet, in the sevral years I've been posting and reading Bike forums on the internet, I've routinely come across TI weld failures on Chinese made frames.......what does that tell you?

What is tells me, is that they have a higher fail %.........It tells me, that were I going to buy one, I would weigh the higher failure rate against the price and decide....but if I did decide it was worth it to me, I would try to make it fail in a safer environment than bombing down a hill. It would have to earn my confidence.

I'm actually considering a chinese TI frame for a cheap commuter.........but I'm not going to blindly accept the quality. But the price risk may have me roll the dice.

It's a risk vs cost issue.

IMO

Len


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## rx-79g

spookyload said:


> Nope. But that was a one time good deal at that price. I would guess he usually sells frames for closer to $700 usually. For an extra $200 I would gladly deal with habanero because it will get here in a week, and warranty support is just as fast. You can also have custom work done with them for a nominal fee too.


Well, yeah. And if I was considering spending $900 for a Hab, I'd probably spend an extra $200 for a Lynskey made Planet X.

But none of that has anything to do with this $361 frame the OP bought.



On the welding question - no, you can't just "take it to a shop". Like carbon repairs, there are a few manufacturers in the country that are competent to do Ti repairs, and you send the frame to them. The repairs aren't cheap, but they are much cheaper than a new frame.


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## Mel Erickson

Len J said:


> You know of a shop that can weld ti? I'm skeptical.
> 
> Len


A quick google found 12 shops that weld Ti within 200 miles of me. Not vouching for their expertise. The key (besides knowing how to weld Ti well) is having a jig to keep everything in alignment. That's where a good Ti frame builder comes in handy. There's also the local technical college that has a full complement of welding programs, including Ti. In fact, each student must complete a project where something is fabricated from each of the different types of materials using the proper welding techniques. I wouldn't hesitate to take a bicycle frame to them. Kids have made Ti bike stems and H style handlebars. The professors insure the welding is done properly and you can even get it xrayed!

Yes, it's not like taking it to the local weld shop and even with the proper equipment it's still more difficult than other metals. However, it ain't rocket science.


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## rx-79g

Mel Erickson said:


> A quick google found 12 shops that weld Ti within 200 miles of me. Not vouching for their expertise. The key (besides knowing how to weld Ti well) is having a jig to keep everything in alignment. That's where a good Ti frame builder comes in handy. There's also the local technical college that has a full complement of welding programs, including Ti. In fact, each student must complete a project where something is fabricated from each of the different types of materials using the proper welding techniques. I wouldn't hesitate to take a bicycle frame to them. Kids have made Ti bike stems and H style handlebars. The professors insure the welding is done properly and you can even get it xrayed!
> 
> Yes, it's not like taking it to the local weld shop and even with the proper equipment it's still more difficult than other metals. However, it ain't rocket science.


Aside from the jig, another difficult aspect of framebuilding with Ti is gas shielding the complex areas of the frame, like around the BB. I think this the reason that failures at the chainstay junction are so common.

Any tig welder could buy the Ti rod and figure it out, but thin frame tubing offers challenges you wouldn't see building race car frames or pressure lines.


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## GSastuto

*Chinese Ti*

We use a great Chinese fab for our Ti bikes. Nothing but praise. I engineer the frames and send over some special parts and they fab the bike. Superb welds and precision miters. What else can you ask for?










One of the finished Bikes:










One of my road bike frames:











You can see more details here:

https://www.roadfixie.com/archives/date/2011/01

If anyone wants a custom frameset done right - then just give me a shout out.


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## arshak

Len,

The early Ti frames from most of the US makers had TI weld failures in the first year or so of their manufacture, especially Litespeed and Merlin. I would say that that holds true for the Chinese frames as well. 

When it comes down to it, It's not exactly rocket science that we are talking about here. Welding alloy tubes in an Oxygen free environment. You become good at it as you keep doing it, over and over. I think, as of now the chines have caught up. As to the anecdotal part, every thing is based on anecdotes / personal observations unless you are talking about putting them through a rigorous testing process.


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## Mel Erickson

rx-79g said:


> Aside from the jig, another difficult aspect of framebuilding with Ti is gas shielding the complex areas of the frame, like around the BB. I think this the reason that failures at the chainstay junction are so common.
> 
> Any tig welder could buy the Ti rod and figure it out, but thin frame tubing offers challenges you wouldn't see building race car frames or pressure lines.


Gas shielding is pretty easy for any welder to do, even for a bicycle frame. Essentially you put the frame in a box similar to a sandblasting box and flood the box with Argon. Both front and back sides of the weld are taken care of. You might want to purge the inside of the frame with Argon before putting it in the box to be sure.


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## rx-79g

Mel Erickson said:


> Gas shielding is pretty easy for any welder to do, even for a bicycle frame. Essentially you put the frame in a box similar to a sandblasting box and flood the box with Argon. Both front and back sides of the weld are taken care of. You might want to purge the inside of the frame with Argon before putting it in the box to be sure.


That sort of set up is not what is used, because it wouldn't allow the welder 360 degree access to weld.

Here's a typical set up. The tubes are flooded and the welder pumps argon on the weld. You can see the welder pause at the end to keep the gas on the weld until it cools. In some tight areas the welder may use and additional shield to keep the gas flowing despite the welder being aimed elsewhere:


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## martinrjensen

I believe either mig or tig welding does that. It's uses an inert gas (usually nitrogen) to displace Oxygen when welding. It's not a big deal. I'm sure there is a learning curve to welding Titanium but probably not insurmountable. Regardless welding in an oxygen free environment is common place


JustTooBig said:


> BINGO!!
> 
> Ti typically (at the builder's) goes through a chemical bath to remove impurities before welding, then needs to have some type of purging or displacement system in place to perform the weld in an oxygen-free environment. Even if you discount the need for a chemical bath, you don't just toss a ti frame up on the workbench and start welding. I'll venture a guess that shops equipped to deal with ti welding are not at all common.


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## Mel Erickson

I agree, just showing how a simple method can be used for Ti welding.


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## GSastuto

arshak said:


> Len,
> 
> The early Ti frames from most of the US makers had TI weld failures in the first year or so of their manufacture, especially Litespeed and Merlin. I would say that that holds true for the Chinese frames as well.
> 
> When it comes down to it, It's not exactly rocket science that we are talking about here. Welding alloy tubes in an Oxygen free environment. You become good at it as you keep doing it, over and over. I think, as of now the chines have caught up. As to the anecdotal part, every thing is based on anecdotes / personal observations unless you are talking about putting them through a rigorous testing process.


Exactly - that's why should only deal with fabs that have stringent quality controls in place and the technicians are certified. As example, we even conduct our own independent testing and spot check. Ti is pretty easy to visually verify if you have experience. But key point is the technicians overall skill and commitment to preparation, machining and welding detail. Its not rocket science but it is craftsmanship.

Check this post out - I cover this in a small amount of detail:

http://www.roadfixie.com/archives/date/2011/01


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## rx-79g

martinrjensen said:


> I believe either mig or tig welding does that. It's uses an inert gas (usually nitrogen) to displace Oxygen when welding. It's not a big deal. I'm sure there is a learning curve to welding Titanium but probably not insurmountable. Regardless welding in an oxygen free environment is common place


Ti burns in nitrogen. Argon is used with ti. 

The preparation for welding ti is a lot more painstaking than steel. Contamination is a critical problem with titanium. It is a surmountable problem, but not one that is taken lightly - unless you don't mind the weld failing.


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## fab4

ekgregory said:


> After a brief delay, the bike is fully built and ready to ride.
> 
> The only frame oddity I experienced while building was that the rear brake guides were welded onto the wrong side of the frame (R instead of L) for some reason, so I had to run the cable around to the right side in the rear - not a big deal.
> 
> The biggest delay was that the fork I ordered from a factory in China turned out to be a 650c, so I had to wait a month or so to receive a 700c replacement (luckily, they didn't charge me or ask me to send the fork back, they shipped me out a new one at no charge). Now all I have to do is figure out what to do with the 650c fork.
> 
> Built up with the components from my old bike - full Ultegra, Ritchey Pro aluminum cockpit, and Aksium wheels (wish I could afford something lighter, but I'll ride 'em till I wear them out).
> 
> Haven't had a chance to weight the bike yet, but I know it's 2 - 3 lbs lighter than the previous aluminum frame and heavy fork I had. Total cost was around $500 for the frame, fork, and headset.
> 
> Took it for a quick spin today, and it feels _much_ faster than my previous frame - the geometry is much more aggressive, and it seems like the frame is much stiffer (in a good way).
> 
> This was my first real build from the ground up - it was a blast. A small part of me wonders if I should've gone carbon with an FM015/28, but I really like this frame - it's pretty unique, and I think it stands out without being too flashy. I'm very happy with my decision.
> 
> Looking forward to putting some serious miles on it over the summer.
> 
> If anyone else has any Chinese titanium builds, I'd love to see the results. Haven't seen too many out there.


Nice bike. It actually looks similar to the Motobecane ti bike.


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## airic812

Nice... Bike
I particularly like your handle bar geometry... sexy curves

This is mine
Here are the before and after pics...thanks for looking
Bought it from someone on CL for $300 including a Reynolds carbon fork with a steer tube that he cut too short, so I had to buy a new one. I'll try to sell that fork and recoup some money.

But I'm sure proud of it...after all, it's my very first build from the bare frame... : ) 
And to have a full 2011 Model Shimano Dura Ace 7900 Groupo which includes the chain, cables and housing at that ... minus the Pedals and Wheels
I'm really proud of it!
I could have gone with Shimano Di2, but the only electronics I want on my bike is the odometer/speedometer
Frame Size: 56cm
The frame has a replaceable rear derailleur hanger and it has a conventional headset setup.
Front derailleur is braze on
Bottom Bracket is English as well

Someone paid enough attention in putting the rear brake cable hangers on the left side of the top tube.

This is the groupo I chose...
10 Speed rear cogs are 11/28
170mm Cranks
53/39 Chainrings
The stem could be better... but is currently aluminum Botrager SSR 90mm, degree in rise is not stated.

Still needs the seat post clamp... will bring the bike to LBS to get the right size.
I think it's 31.8mm but I just have to make sure.
Carbon water bottle cages are on the way
Pedals are Shimano 105 Clipless
Headset is Cane Creek S6
Wheels are Mavic Cosmos

Front fork name is High Modulus Carbon.
Handle bars is M.O.s.T. full carbon by Pinarello 

I can't wait to ride it.
Thanks for looking 
Cheers : D
Eric


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## airic812

*Ti Frame bike build*

Nice... Bike
I particularly like your handle bar geometry... sexy curves.:thumbsup:

Here is mine...has no markings.
These are the before and after photos.
If it doesn't show, please tell me how to upload and post pictures properly.
I can't preview my own uploaded pics for some reason
I took the pics of the bare frame after I installed the headset... was a little to anxious putting it together 

Bought it from someone on CL for $300 including a Reynolds carbon fork with a steer tube that was cut too short, so I had to buy a new one. I'll try to sell that fork and recoup some money.

But I'm sure proud of it...after all, it's my very first build from a bare frame... : ) 
And to have a full 2011 Model Shimano Dura Ace 7900 Groupo which includes the chain, cables and housing at that ... minus the pedals and wheels
I'm really proud of it!
I could have gone with Shimano Di2, but the only electronics I want on my bike is the odometer/speedometer
Frame Size: 56cm
The frame has a replaceable rear derailleur hanger and it has a conventional headset setup.
Bottom Bracket is English as well
Someone paid enough attention in putting the brake cable hangers on the left side of the top tube.

This is the groupo I chose...
10 Speed rear cogs are 11/28
170mm Cranks
53/39 Chainrings
The stem could be better... but is currently aluminum Botrager SSR 90mm, degree in rise is not stated.

Still needs the seat post clamp... will bring the bike to LBS to get the right size.
I think it's 31.8mm but I just have to make sure.
Carbon water bottle cages are on the way
Pedals are Shimano 105 Clipless
Headset is Cane Creek S6
Wheels are Mavic Cosmos

Front fork name is High Modulus Carbon.
Handle bars is M.O.s.T. full carbon by Pinarello 

I can't wait to ride it.
Thanks for looking 
Cheers : D
Eric


----------



## Juanmoretime

Not to rain on anybody's parade but your frame appears too big. Your stem is short and your there is not much seapost showing. I would have sized down a least a size.


----------



## mrbubbles

^^^

Don't listen to him, your sizing is fine. Not everyone needs the "pro racer" look with a mile high seatpost and double digit stems.


----------



## maxxevv

Juan, I think its perfectly ok, perhaps he would be better served with a slightly sloping too tube instead ?

Something that drops the top-tube and seat-tube interface by about 1 inch or 25mm would be about just right. ;-)


----------



## airic812

ok..Remember though, I haven't sat on the saddle because it's really not finished yet....
It's still needs the seat post clamp.
And also remember that this frame was bought from Craigslist for $300 with a bonus full carbon Reynolds fork, which unfortunately I cannot use, and is for sale.... so if you are interested let me know, it has a 7 1/2" steer tube length and 1 1/8 diameter
don't even ask me about rake... I don't know.
The stem, seat and seapost came from my 2008 Lemond Buenos Aires 
I was comfortable with the 90mm stem that's my story. 
For now I'm just eyeballing the seat height for my size, which I think is pretty close.
I definitely am not a racer and more of a casual rider who appreciates quality parts and smooth performace.
and for fitting a road bike I , I went by this mans advice... check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAl_5e7bIHk

Although he doesn't mention anything about standover height.... as long as I can straddle the top tube bare footed, jump up and down on my heels without cracking my eggs and hurting myself, I'm good.
Comfort is key though.... so if you are comfortable with high seats and long stems, then props to you my brotha!
: )

Cheers 
; )
Eric


----------



## krisdrum

airic812 said:


> and for fitting a road bike I , I went by this mans advice... check it out.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAl_5e7bIHk


About as generic advice as you can get. Not much more useful than the LBS having you standover a bike they have in stock and saying "that looks about right". I guess for getting you to a starting point, it isn't too detrimental, but definitely don't think it is the golden rule.


----------



## airic812

krisdrum said:


> About as generic advice as you can get. Not much more useful than the LBS having you standover a bike they have in stock and saying "that looks about right". I guess for getting you to a starting point, it isn't too detrimental, but definitely don't think it is the golden rule.


Just curious, having said that .... what is your golden rule?


----------



## krisdrum

airic812 said:


> Just curious, having said that .... what is your golden rule?


That is kinda the point, there is no golden rule(s). None of us are the same, let alone symmetrical. Yet we are trying to ride a symmetrical machine. In order to increase comfort, performance and reduce the possibility of injury, we need to look at how we fit that machine on an individual basis.


----------



## airic812

krisdrum said:


> That is kinda the point, there is no golden rule(s). None of us are the same, let alone symmetrical. Yet we are trying to ride a symmetrical machine. In order to increase comfort, performance and reduce the possibility of injury, we need to look at how we fit that machine on an individual basis.



EEEEEEEEEEEExactly ; )
Thank you!:thumbsup:


----------



## airic812

Juanmoretime said:


> Not to rain on anybody's parade but your frame appears too big. Your stem is short and your there is not much seapost showing. I would have sized down a least a size.


That's about as good as me looking at your bike and saying .... your frame is too small because your stem is too long and you have too much seat post showing. I would have sized up at least a size.


----------



## berndrea

nice build


----------



## Jerry-rigged

airic812 said:


> That's about as good as me looking at your bike and saying .... your frame is too small because your stem is too long and you have too much seat post showing. I would have sized up at least a size.


Funny, that is what I think when I see 90% of the builds posted here...


----------



## airic812

*Chi - Tanium Bike Project*



berndrea said:


> nice build


 Thanks,
The bike rides absolutely AWESOME!
So far I logged in 123 miles
I think I need a longer stem though 

Will post more pics later....
Still waiting on my carbon water bottle cages.


----------



## Crawf

The stem does seem a little short, however remember it has a hori top tube, if it had a sloping top tube the seat post would obviously be more exposed.


----------



## cs1

krisdrum said:


> Google is your friend: http://www.xacd.com.cn/


No prices I could find.


----------



## krisdrum

cs1 said:


> No prices I could find.


Correct, believe you need to reach out to them for pricing. But if you look at related threads, you'll see what others have paid and that should give you a ballpark figure.


----------



## tuffguy1500

I emailed XACD last night and received several replies to them and had quite the conversation going about their bikes. From that experience alone, I think their customer service is/will be decent. He provided me with weights, times, and customizable options. I'm so very tempted to this direction for my next bike since i have no owned all the materials but Ti.


----------



## airic812

*Chi-Tanium Project*

Here are new pics with the new drank holders.
I thought they'd never get here.
I was getting thirsty 

Stay thirsty my friends.

Wait...

Was that a commercial I saw?
Oh ... wrong drinks.

All jokes aside, please.... don't drink and ride.

Still looking for a new stem...
Anyone have a 100mm stem for sale or trade?
Preferably a 4 bolt face plate and 2 bolt steer tube clamp
31.8mm handle bar and 1 1/8" steer tube.
Trade you my full carbon Reynolds Fork


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Len J said:


> And all that proves is that some of the frames from chinese plants don't have welding problems. The real question is...what are their failure rates and how do they compare to other manufacturers? No one really has all the facts, but what we do have are ancedotal evidence......when was the last time you heard of a Moots weld failure?, how about Erikson?, Serotta?, Seven? Merlin?, Spectrum?........yet, in the sevral years I've been posting and reading Bike forums on the internet, I've routinely come across TI weld failures on Chinese made frames.......what does that tell you?
> 
> What is tells me, is that they have a higher fail %.........It tells me, that were I going to buy one, I would weigh the higher failure rate against the price and decide....but if I did decide it was worth it to me, I would try to make it fail in a safer environment than bombing down a hill. It would have to earn my confidence.
> 
> I'm actually considering a chinese TI frame for a cheap commuter.........but I'm not going to blindly accept the quality. But the price risk may have me roll the dice.
> 
> It's a risk vs cost issue.
> 
> IMO
> 
> Len


I did exactly that. I ordered a Chi-ti cross bike with both cant and disk options as a test bike/commuter before I committed to a more expensive option. I have to say I’ve been pretty impressed with the frame. The welds are solid but not as pretty as any of my other ti bikes (DEAN. IF, Moots, Lynskey) but for the price I can’t complain. Even with splurging on a few options (Breezer dropouts, up sized butted DT, chain hanger, disk tabs, rack mounts, 132.5 rear spacing) the cost of the frame was super reasonable. I’m sold on disks for cross/commuting so the frame has served its purpose and will likely replicate/replace it with a US made frame in the near future.


----------



## ohpossum

airic812 said:


> Still looking for a new stem...
> Anyone have a 100mm stem for sale or trade?
> Preferably a 4 bolt face plate and 2 bolt steer tube clamp
> 31.8mm handle bar and 1 1/8" steer tube.
> Trade you my full carbon Reynolds Fork


Deal! Send me a PM if'n you're serious

op


----------



## mrbubbles

Ramjm_2000 said:


> I did exactly that. I ordered a Chi-ti cross bike with both cant and disk options as a test bike/commuter before I committed to a more expensive option. I have to say I’ve been pretty impressed with the frame. The welds are solid but not as pretty as any of my other ti bikes (DEAN. IF, Moots, Lynskey) but for the price I can’t complain. Even with splurging on a few options (Breezer dropouts, up sized butted DT, chain hanger, disk tabs, rack mounts, 132.5 rear spacing) the cost of the frame was super reasonable. I’m sold on disks for cross/commuting so the frame has served its purpose and will likely replicate/replace it with a US made frame in the near future.


Do you have a picture of your ti commuter?


----------



## Ramjm_2000

You know its the only one I haven't taken a picture of. I'll try and correct that this weekend.


----------



## tron

ekgregory said:


> Yup, $361, not $600.
> 
> what was the ebay's seller's name? Build came out looking nice.


----------



## Ramjm_2000

mrbubbles said:


> Do you have a picture of your ti commuter?


Very crappy pic but better than none. This is with her commute wheels and reflective tires on, looks much better with the 34mm cross wheels/tires. Like I said, this has been a great frame, at the time I wasnt 100% sold on a disc cross bike but I am now so I'll probably looking to put in and order with a US builder on a replica. 

JR


----------



## flatsix911

This comes with a warranty ... :thumbsup:

*Frameset 3AL/2.5V Butted Titanium 2011 Le Champion Team $999*
3/2.5 Butted Titanium, High Modulus Carbon Fiber fork with Carbon Steerer
https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_teamti_10_frameset.htm


----------



## Ride-Fly

mrbubbles said:


> ^^^
> 
> Don't listen to him, your sizing is fine. Not everyone needs the "pro racer" look with a mile high seatpost and double digit stems.


I am gonna agree with Juan on the stem issue, especially because of the short stem. What length is that stem? An 80mm? I think a stem that short changes the handling too much. 

The seatpost length looks ok to me. .


----------



## Monty Dog

My friend has an older Litespeed titanium cross frame, I have a Xi'an/Xacd custom cross that I've had for about 5 years. Last weekend we rode a 100 mile offroad route which takes in many sections of rocky trail. Half-way my friend notices his Litespeed is creaking and subsequently find the driveside chainstay has snapped - classic ductile weld failure. Has to call for a ride home. No problems with my $500 Xi'an. My friend subsequently finds his Litespeed's 'lifetime' warranty expired years ago and is effectively junk. But hey, you guys carry on pouring scorn on Chinese ti...


----------



## a_avery007

as long as your happy with your ride that is all that matters, better than driving in a car!

but, i take pride in owning a bike made in usa, by a great american builder, with tubeset made in the usa, with usa parts, thomson, king etc...all the while knowing that i am helping the people here is the usa by keeping the economy here.

ride what you like just ride.


----------



## allanwho

definitely have to see the quality of it first... it it's ebay.. make sure it's good quality!


----------



## Broken wrists

Here's my Chinese Cheapo with couplers, total cost including $600 for the case, cable splitters, tool, etc from S&S was $3600. Weight of frame is 2012, weight of entire bike is 8244 g, or just over 18 lbs, not including the aerobars. 
I had the chainstays made of 1.6 mm tubing, 2 grades above standard, + overiszed downtube as I wanted to be able to do heavy loaded touring. Clearance is just sufficient for panaracer Pasela tourguards with fenders, or Vittoria 700x37 without fenders. 
The frame is very stiff. Using the subjective "squeeze the rear dropouts" test it is stiffer than anything in the store where I had it built up (Pecco's in Ottawa). 

You need to be very clear about what you want when dealing with XACD (Porter) and try to get everything right on the first try, otherwise it gets tricky, changes you make disappear. 

However, my bike would cost upwards of $6000 if made in Canada. It would likely be a little lighter and look a little classier, but I'm very pleased with it, and would do it again.

The photos show Michel, head wrench at Pecco's in Gatineau, installing the cable splitters, and details of the bike. The couplers arent' as nice as S+S, but for the money, who cares? they work fine.

I have to ride with heavy plastic wrist guards and my hands and wrists are sensitive, hence the wide bar and aerobars, also the fat tires which soften the ride. 

If I were to do it again, I'd probably go with 2 pair of couplers as used in Tandems, and also on large Zinn travel bikes, as this would make it much easier to pack. 

Jimbo


----------



## mreams99

Great looking bikes. I've been considering the custom ti route too.


----------



## satanas

I cannot believe how excessively patriotic/racist/xenophobic so many people are about this stuff. It's not like everything in the history of the world was invented in the USA, or that nobody anywhere else has a clue. :-(

As to the "Chinese frames = crap" theory, XACD have been building frames for several years at least under their own name, and may well have been subcontracting for other brands for longer. There have been long threads about their products on websites in the US and Europe and very, very few problems have been reported. I'd be very surprised if they haven't acquired quite a substantial base of expertise by this time given the volume of frames (and other stuff) that they've produced.

Also, at the moment they are just about the cheapest custom geometry frame option, bar none - apart from DIY steel, and then only if you have all the tooling already. Seems to me like they are effectively an excellent prototyping facility, even if you weren't actually wanting to ride the frame.

Warranty is also not that big a deal unless 1) you routinely break things and 2) you or your shop has a really good relationship with the supplier. Warranties are not infrequently denied for no good reason, so unless it's something super-expensive you may as well just save some money and get it fixed or replaced if the worst happens. This won't necessarily cost any more in total and at least if there's no warranty you know where you stand - and you won't get any ulcers from fighting about it.


----------



## Broken wrists

*Chinese cheapo in use*

The Chinese Cheapo has now got about 700 miles. Some commuting, the Rideau Lakes Tour (115 miles each of Sat and Sun June 11th and 12th) and some riding in Colorado, as of today, 2 days of BTC. 

Some thoughts. 

The ride is very stable. The frame is a lot stiffer than any I have had since my 1971 Bianchi with cast iron lugs and Columbus SP tubing. The ride is very supple. The couplers work perfectly. The bike packs into the S&S hard case with no issues, though the aerobar and long handlebar required some breakdown. Also, the fork needs to be removed. If you cut 3 cm off the steerer ie total length 27 cm, it will fit without removal. 

Climbing on the bike is a dream. It feels very solid and stable. Descending is similarly uneventful as the bike is very stable. The SRAM gear is fine, shifting with no issues in spite of the cable splitters. 

Jimbo


----------



## crashnburn08

Nice bike. I am also looking into building my first Ti bike soon.


----------



## Crawf

Loving my XACD bike with China wheels. Hard to resist commuting on it, but thats what my other XACD bike is for!


----------



## SSRider

.......


----------



## SSRider

the rear derailleur looks like it's in pain. i kid, nice ride!


----------



## airic812

*Chi-Tanium*

Latest picture of my ride.... with the 110mm Truvativ XR stem.
I prefer the two bolted steer tube stem but it does have the 4 bolt handle bar clamp... but for $10.00 on Ebay, I couldn't resist.
Now I know the size I need, I'm on the hunt for a better stem this bike deserves.


----------



## cs1

ekgregory said:


> Hello,
> 
> First time poster. Saw this thread and thought I might add my small bit of experience to the mix.
> 
> I'd been looking at Chinese carbon for a while, but had always been interested in picking up a ti frame for all the usual reasons. I've been intrigued by XACD, but unsure about specifying every detail of the frame.
> 
> I actually found a new, Chinese-made 57cm ti frame on ebay - sold by a guy in the US who is trying to start up his own brand of ti and carbon frames. He told me it's not made by XACD, but wouldn't tell me who made it specifically.


Nice frame. Is it by chance this guy?

https://cgi.ebay.com/TACC-TRF-1-Tit...60607533870?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2564f47b2e


----------



## cs1

Monty Dog said:


> My friend has an older Litespeed titanium cross frame, I have a Xi'an/Xacd custom cross that I've had for about 5 years. Last weekend we rode a 100 mile offroad route which takes in many sections of rocky trail. Half-way my friend notices his Litespeed is creaking and subsequently find the driveside chainstay has snapped - classic ductile weld failure. Has to call for a ride home. No problems with my $500 Xi'an. My friend subsequently finds his Litespeed's 'lifetime' warranty expired years ago and is effectively junk. But hey, you guys carry on pouring scorn on Chinese ti...


The older bike has probably seen mores miles and consequently fatigued earlier. That isn't a problem. The warranty issue is though.


----------



## JGF62

Crawf said:


> Loving my XACD bike with China wheels. Hard to resist commuting on it, but thats what my other XACD bike is for!
> 
> 
> Looks wicked.:thumbsup:
> Do you have details on size, geometry, cost & shipping etc.?


----------



## ekgregory

cs1 said:


> Nice frame. Is it by chance this guy?


Nope, not that seller. If you look at the frame pics, the dropouts are different, as well as the headtube, cable stops, and seatstays. Still not sure who produced my frame.

The seller I bought it from was in the US, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't look like he's selling anymore.

It's been riding great - plenty stiff without being harsh, and it's held up well on all the crappy roads near where I live. I really like the subdued look, too - it stands out simply because it _doesn't _have any labels, paint, etc.

The only problem I've had with it is that my seat post kept slipping. I tried all the usual remedies (and searched online for waaay too long about the problem), then measured the tube and found out that it's a bit wider diameter than it should be for 27.2 - probably closer to 27.4. I used a very thin shim (soda can) in conjunction with a seatpost collar that clamps onto the seat tube and the post itself, and haven't had a problem since. Not the most elegant solution, I know, but I'm just happy that the slippage has been eliminated.


----------



## paredown

Broken wrists said:


> Here's my Chinese Cheapo with couplers, total cost including $600 for the case, cable splitters, tool, etc from S&S was $3600. Weight of frame is 2012, weight of entire bike is 8244 g, or just over 18 lbs, not including the aerobars.
> 
> ...The couplers arent' as nice as S+S, but for the money, who cares? they work fine.
> 
> Jimbo


Thanks for the info on the couplers--I could swear that the eBay ads called them S&S but I could be mistaken.

Nice ride--this was my dream for loaded touring as well--maybe in another year or so.

dean


----------



## Crawf

JGF62 said:


> Crawf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Loving my XACD bike with China wheels. Hard to resist commuting on it, but thats what my other XACD bike is for!
> 
> 
> Looks wicked.:thumbsup:
> Do you have details on size, geometry, cost & shipping etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> Custom geometry, so pricing will vary compared to their off the shelf frame.
> Then throw in custom sized tubing, integrated head tube, exchange rates, it all varies...
Click to expand...


----------



## firstrax

Crawf said:


> Loving my XACD bike with China wheels. Hard to resist commuting on it, but thats what my other XACD bike is for!


Don't cross your chain like that! Srsly.
( I like the red accents)


----------



## Broken wrists

*Chinese cheapo in use part 2 - BTC*

I took the chinese cheapo to the BTC. Worked flawlessly. Stomping up passes on a really stiff frame is a delight. The couplers work loose unless tightened manfully with a 6" wrench, likely still not getting the 35 foot pounds specified. All that happens is the ring becomes loose but the coupler itself does not open at all. 

No complaints about the bike so far. 

Photo follows (with luck). I have to wear heavy wrist guards. I spend most of my time on the aerobars so as to not overuse my wrists. I use the Ergon grips which fit into the palms of the wrist guards well. I also use a 28 on the front, inflated to about 60 lbs to reduce shock and vibration through the front end. 

Jimbo


----------



## mavisto

*XACD Alternative*

I'm looking into buying a Custom Ti Audax Frame from China.

I've found a company called Titan Products (titanproduct dot com). Has anybody out there heard of them or used them? 

I've heard good and bad things about XACD and I'm always keen on trying alternatives; if I wasn't, I wouldn't be looking at a Chinese Ti frame.

Also, if there is anybody on this forum from the UK and has ordered a frame from china, did you have to pay import duty and VAT?


----------



## Mr Evil

mavisto said:


> ...Also, if there is anybody on this forum from the UK and has ordered a frame from china, did you have to pay import duty and VAT?


I have imported quite a lot of things from various countries, including a frame from China, and nothing has ever been stopped by customs. It does happen though (I've seen estimates from one company of 10% of packages from China being stopped), so make sure you can afford to pay.


----------



## Crawf

Mr Evil said:


> I have imported quite a lot of things from various countries, including a frame from China, and nothing has ever been stopped by customs. It does happen though (I've seen estimates from one company of 10% of packages from China being stopped), so make sure you can afford to pay.


Oh it it'll happen in the UK that's for sure, they love bending you over for any fecking money or taxes over there.



mavisto said:


> Also, if there is anybody on this forum from the UK and has ordered a frame from china, did you have to pay import duty and VAT?



I don't live in the UK now, but at the time I imported my XACD I was living in UK, just be sure to ask Porter (numerous times) to mark down the shipping invoice price to 15 squid and mark it as a sample. There is a high chance anything over 18 will have VAT applied


----------



## houstanrojas

ekgregory said:


> Hello,
> 
> First time poster. Saw this thread and thought I might add my small bit of experience to the mix.
> 
> I'd been looking at Chinese carbon for a while, but had always been interested in picking up a ti frame for all the usual reasons. I've been intrigued by XACD, but unsure about specifying every detail of the frame.
> 
> I actually found a new, Chinese-made 57cm ti frame on ebay - sold by a guy in the US who is trying to start up his own brand of ti and carbon frames. He told me it's not made by XACD, but wouldn't tell me who made it specifically. This was his last road frame he was trying to sell off before ordering a new batch, so he priced it really low. I ended up buying the frame for $361 shipped - very few people bid on it; probably because the brand was completely unknown (no website or information at all).
> 
> I then purchased a full carbon fork in matte 3k, directly from one of the oft-discussed Chinese carbon sellers which looks to be very similar to the 3T Funda. I wanted a straight-bladed fork, and this one fit the bill.
> 
> I've received both items. Actual frame weight is 1475g or 3.25 lb (seller claimed 3.03 lbs). Actual fork weight is 375 g, which was shockingly dead on, to the gram. I'm not too bummed about the frame weight, as I'd read everything I could on buying cycling products from China and knew I should expect some discrepancy in weight. I was told the frame used some double-butted tubes, but given the weight I find that very unlikely. Ultimately, I'm using this frame for recreational riding and a few triathlons, so a little bit of extra weight isn't too much of a concern for me.


looks cool! (O.O)


----------



## gb155

Quick question guys

I have been in contact with XACD, all seemed good, until Porter told me they wont take Paypal on any order over $150 and that they want the money via wire.

I just wanted to know if this is standard for XACD?

Thanks


----------



## Crawf

gb155 said:


> Quick question guys
> 
> I have been in contact with XACD, all seemed good, until Porter told me they wont take Paypal on any order over $150 and that they want the money via wire.
> 
> I just wanted to know if this is standard for XACD?
> 
> Thanks


Yep, wire only for big orders.
Paypal for small parts.


----------



## gb155

Crawf said:


> Yep, wire only for big orders.
> Paypal for small parts.


It seems strange that they then charge a banking fee for wire that's about the same as paypal would charge 

A planet x TI would only cost an extra $150 or so, the lack of protection from paypal does worry tbh


----------



## arshak

I have always paid xacd through the wire transfer from my bank. Just the way you do business with them I guess. It's a premium of roughly $80.00 dollars.


----------



## Monty Dog

Just ordered 3 custom CX frames from Xi'an - due in 5 weeks. I've gone for a Breakaway CX with BB86 press-fit and Breezer style drop-outs to stiffen-up the drivetrain / bigger wheel clearances.


----------



## Broken wrists

*Wall thicknesses*

Hi Monty, 
Could you post your designs?

I went for thick chainstays (1,6 mm wall thicknesses) which, given the chainstay length, seems to make a difference. My bike is plenty stiff when I stand and wail on the pedals, certainly stiffer than a Merlin and a Litespeed I've ridden recently. 

Jimbo


----------



## 88 rex

rx-79g said:


> Many Ti frames that don't say "made in USA" are Chinese. That includeds the Salsa Ti, Pedalforce carbon/ti bike, Airborne, Habenero and whatever you see on Ebay.


Salsa Ti is made by Lynskey.


----------



## Zoan

WOW!!! nice bike I love it.
the red parts with the simplicity of the design or the lack of design.
it certainly a contender for the"Best looking bicycle" thread


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Deleted


----------



## mavisto

*Gone and done it*

Finally plucked up the courage and ordered a Titanium Frame from Titan Products.

Their price for a custom Sportive/Audax frame with an integrated headset is $730. Shipping to the UK is $103. They only produce drawings after your order has been placed, but I had no problems tweaking things to get the frame exactly how I wanted it.

Titan also has their own on line shop on Aliexpress. I chose the frame closest to what I wanted and then specified all the customisations (head tube length etc).

Aliexpress uses escrow, so you don't hand over your hard earned until you are happy with the frame. I've also been promised photos when it is finished prior to it being shipped so I can check it over.

So far, I've been really happy with their service and I can't wair to get the frame.


----------



## Zoan

Very nice bike Ramjm_2000. 
can you tell us more about the disc barkes !


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Sure. Specifically what would you like to know? They are Avid road BB7s.


----------



## Zoan

what I will like to know is what wheels are you using?
how much is the weigh of the wheels including the rotors?
and how is the braking power?
your experience using them
and how you attached them to the fork and frame

*thanks allot!*


----------



## toolong

Broken wrists said:


> Here's my Chinese Cheapo with couplers, total cost including $600 for the case, cable splitters, tool, etc from S&S was $3600. Weight of frame is 2012, weight of entire bike is 8244 g, or just over 18 lbs, not including the aerobars.
> 
> Jimbo


Jimbo, can you clarify. Did you get a Chinese knockoff S&S? Or is this just the frame + north american slice + s&s install? How much would it be for just S&S + frame?


----------



## satanas

Monty Dog said:


> Just ordered 3 custom CX frames from Xi'an - due in 5 weeks. I've gone for a Breakaway CX with BB86 press-fit and Breezer style drop-outs to stiffen-up the drivetrain / bigger wheel clearances.


Monty, just to clarify: Are you saying XACD can do Ritchey Breaaway style couplers? Thanks!


----------



## twiggy

satanas said:


> Monty, just to clarify: Are you saying XACD can do Ritchey Breaaway style couplers? Thanks!


I believe he must mean S&S-Style... I asked XACD about Ritchey-Style couplers last winter and they had no idea what they were.... although when I sent them pictures they said they were sure they could do it IF they got drawings for them.... but I was a bit weary of being their 'first'... so I bought a Ritchey!


----------



## Broken wrists

I had XACD make fake S&S couplers. They tighten and stay tight. Unfortunately, the lower one has a squeak which is quite noticeable when standing and climbing. 
If I were to do it again, I'd get real S&S couplers just to avoid concerns about reliability. 
Just after getting my frame, my local bike shop got a shipment of titanium frames made in Taiwan which look great. The cost of one with S&S couplers would likely be about $2K, twice what I paid for the frame but reasonable to me. 

If you plan to use the bike for a trip a few times a year I'd give the XACD couplers a try - they added $245 to the cost of the frame if I recall. If this is your round the world bike, I'd go with genuine S&S. 

One advantage of going with XACD is they would make chainstays as stout as you like - I went with 1.6 mm wall thickness, and the frame is noticeably stiffer through the rear triangle than any other Ti bike I've ever tried. Also, cost of the frame delivered was $1100.00 which included the upcharge for couplers and the upcharge for the curved chainstays. 

Jimbo


----------



## satanas

Thanks guys. I'm doubtful about including couplers at all as the S&S/Ritchey cases (hard or soft) woud be difficult for me to transport or store when overseas, which basically defeats the whole point - making travel easier. So, couplers would only be useful for me for intra- and interstate trips, and I'm inclined to think something like a Ground Effect Tardis (bag) might do the job just as well without the storage hassles; I'm not in the USA so airline charges aren't the big issue for me. Since there's no way for me to obtain "real" S&S coupers without buying a frame from a vastly more expen$ive custom builder, they are not an option.

Re tubing, I'm actually planning on getting my frame built with smaller than normal tubes in some places since I'm more interested in the frame being comfortable and light than in mega-stiffness, plus I'm light and have ridden plenty of allegedly too-flexible frames quite happily in the past. What is said here makes sense based on my experience: Science and Bicycles: Frame Stiffness | Off The Beaten Path


----------



## babyrabies

Monty Dog said:


> Just ordered 3 custom CX frames from Xi'an - due in 5 weeks. I've gone for a Breakaway CX with BB86 press-fit and Breezer style drop-outs to stiffen-up the drivetrain / bigger wheel clearances.


I wouldnt trust their 5 weeks lead, ive been waiting for 9 weeks now and they are STILL making my frame. That, my friend is just 1 frame.


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## TimV

*XACD Ti Road Frame*

I was just looking at the XACD Ti road frames on their website. Although they list the standard sizes, I could not find a link to the frame geometry. They also don't list any prices. Do I have to e-mail them to get this info? Also, for those of you who have dealt with them, how was the experience? Thanks!


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## arshak

Tim,
It has been a while since I bought from Xacd, the last time being early 2008. In total, I bought 5 frames, between 2005 and 2008, all of them custom geometry. If I remember correctly, at that time, there was a up charge of $40.00 for custom geometry.

Two of the things you should be aware of when dealing with Xacd is that you should know exactly what you want from them, everything from the size of the head tube to the diameters of the tubes and the seat stays and chain stays as well as the placements for the barrel adjusters for your derailleurs, type of dropout, straight chain stays or curved, etc. 

YOU basically are designing your bike. It's not rocket science but does need a fair degree of thought going into it, like any specific head and seat tube angle, bb drop. The other thing to be aware of is that they want payment via a wire transfer with the associated fees which add to the cost of the frame. You will end up paying fees for both sides of the transaction.

All that said, if you know what you want, then the hassle is worth it. Current lead times are around 8- 11 weeks. Back in 2008, it was 2 weeks, biggest delay being between when you did the transfer and they receiving the money. The actual fabrication and delivery was amazing. I had the frame delivered to me in 3 days in the USA.


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## arshak

Whoops, it should be curved seat stays, not chain stays


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## mavisto

*The Titan has arrived*

My custom frame from Titan Products arrived on the 26th September. That makes it less than a month from initial contact to delivery.

The frame looks fantastic and appears to match my custom specification exactly. The only thing I missed was a drain hole in the bottom bracket that was not on the first drawing. It shows up on the final drawing, but at this stage I was more concerned about tube lengths and brake bridge distances to notice an extra 4.5mm hole in the bottom bracket. Not to worry though, I remember the days when there were huge slots in the base of bottom brackets, plus there are no worries with rust on this frame.

I now just have to find the bits to build it up. I've got some carbon forks and some Mirage Shifters, guess it's time to start stripping my other bikes.


----------



## Bunyan

Nice Triton! I'm new to road bikes and am thinking of having one built up as well.
I'm a large Clyde at 6'6" 280 ish and was wondering what size tubing I should go with. Is a 44mm down tube and a 38mm tt realistic? 

I know Triton has 44mm tubing since I was also looking at having a mtb frame built up but I'm not sure if 44mm dt would be overkill. 

Thanks for your feedback.


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## krisdrum

mavisto said:


> My custom frame from Titan Products arrived on the 26th September. That makes it less than a month from initial contact to delivery.
> 
> The frame looks fantastic and appears to match my custom specification exactly. The only thing I missed was a drain hole in the bottom bracket that was not on the first drawing. It shows up on the final drawing, but at this stage I was more concerned about tube lengths and brake bridge distances to notice an extra 4.5mm hole in the bottom bracket. Not to worry though, I remember the days when there were huge slots in the base of bottom brackets, plus there are no worries with rust on this frame.
> 
> I now just have to find the bits to build it up. I've got some carbon forks and some Mirage Shifters, guess it's time to start stripping my other bikes.


Mind sharing what your total out-of-pocket cost was for the frame? Looks very nicely done.


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## mavisto

krisdrum said:


> Mind sharing what your total out-of-pocket cost was for the frame? Looks very nicely done.



No, not at all. The frame was $730, but that included the integrated headset and brushed finish. I'm not sure where you are from, but delivery to the UK was another $103. Total in GPB was about £530 given the exchange rate. If you buy via AliExpress, you can pay by credit card so no extra charges for bankers drafts or paypal.

It is really a full custom frame. I specified the head tube and seat tube angles, chainstay length, seat tube length, BB drop and brake bridge position. I also don't like the 'Breezer' dropouts, so I asked them to change them for a more trad style as seen in the photo.


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## mavisto

Bunyan

I'm 6'4" and about 220. TheTitan as you see it has a 42mm downtube, with 34.9 top and seat tubes. The seat stays are 19mm and the chain stays are 22mm (25 taping to about 19 actually). Both are 0.9mm tube thickness.

I can understand people beefing up the rear triangle with 1.2mm tube thickness, but given the roads that I normally ride and the fact that most people buy Ti frames because of their supposed comfort, I chose not to go for the thicker tubes.

Also, at 6'6" unless you want your arse in the air, you could do with getting a long head tube. The head tube on the Titan is 230mm long. I've attached a photo of my current bike which has a 229mm steerer and using an uncut 300mm steerer I still use 30mm of spacers and a riser stem. I have got stupidly long legs and a short torso though which is why I wanted to go for a custom frame. Do a search for rattlecad, it's a frame design program that is a great little tool.


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## satanas

^ I can also recommend Rattlecad but it has its fair share of quirks. Don't take output for gospel and be sure to check what happens when you change something; at times things you don't expect will change as well, perhaps in an attempt to maintain something else that the software's writer considers more important than you might. Also, the wheel diameters have been WRONG(!) in the past, as the writer has coded in the bead seat diameter as the rim OD; ~8mm normally need to be added (to the BSDs) to make rim and tyre ODs more sensible. NB: This may have been fixed recently as the whole thing is a work in progress.

mavisto: are the chainstays actually tapered in diameter, or are they just squashed in different directions at the two ends? If they're actually tapered that's excellent news! 

BTW, I have the exact opposite frame fitting problem to you - a long torso and arms and not so long legs. On all the stock frames I've looked at the head tube is too long, top tube (and front centre) is too short, seat angle is too steep, top tube and BB are too high, or some combination thereof... [sigh]


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## mavisto

satanas said:


> mavisto: are the chainstays actually tapered in diameter, or are they just squashed in different directions at the two ends? If they're actually tapered that's excellent news!


According to the drawing they are Tapered. It reads as follows.

Taper ø19*180L - ø22.2*0.9T – Oval 25*18.5

Which I read as 25 x 18.5 oval by the BB shell; 22.2 x 0.9 ovarall tube profile tapering at 180mm length to 19mm.

I also got them to fit curved chainstays and 'S' shaped seat stays.


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## satanas

Thanks! The chainstays look sort of like constant width when viewed from above in your photo and the previously posted drawing but the resolution is low enough there's no way for me to tell much. Tapered would be good though - more efficient use of materials. In the picture here: Titanium cyclocross frame4-Xi'an titanproduct Co., Ltd the stays look tapered, but again, low-res.

I wasn't previously aware of titanproduct.com, and maybe they are the supplier people mention when they talk about Ti frames made in China for various companies, but "not by XACD." Some of their stuff looks interesting, especially this fork: Titanium Road Fork 2-Xi'an titanproduct Co., Ltd Hard to tell from the pic if the blades are tapered or not, but 550g is reasonable for anything with eyelets (including CF), and presumably custom rake and braze-ons might be possible...


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## mavisto

I agree it's difficult to see the taper on the chainstays from the top in the photo, but I don't have a photo available that is a high enough resolution. I certainly can't upload it anyway.

The high res photo I've got does show the taper, but due to the angle I took the photo at and because the section closest to the BB shell is ovalised, it actually looks biggest at the mid point of the chainstay. You can just about see the taper on the two full frame photos. You also have to remember that it is only 6mm over the whole of the length of the chainstay. It's not a whole lot whe I get my ruler out.


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## satanas

No need for a high-res photo - I believe you! Thanks again.


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## Broken wrists

This looks very much like the Eclipse titanium bike I bought at Pecco's in 2000. Apparently it was made in Russia. Rode fine. Chainstays appeared to have been flattened and had the "bullet" style ending that your frame does. I had it dressed in full Campagnolo. Compared to anything I had ridden before, it was a rocket.
Apparently they cost $800 cdn at that time. I think you got a great bike at a great price. 
Jimbo


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## natlowe

Chinese brands probably dont have a warranty of any sort.


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## ekgregory

Mavisto, beautiful frame - I'm looking forward to hearing how the bike rides when it's fully built up.

After looking at your frame, I am pretty sure mine (on page 1 of this thread) was produced by Titan as well - the flared, integrated head tube, cable routing, and bent stays seem to be very similar. There's a few pictures of their frames on Alibaba that look identical to mine.

Best of luck with the build!


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## MYMOJO34

Has anyone built up the XACD Ti Blade?

That frame is ridiculously hot and I'd love to see pics of it built up.


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## Broken wrists

ekgregory, I agree, looks to be a Russian, not Chinese frame.
The brake bridge is exactly the same and I've never seen an XACD frame with this bridge. 
Jimbo


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## satanas

There's quite a long thread here; http://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-d...dmade-russia-anyone-583688-6.html#post8629306 on Russian Ti frames. No prices are mentioned, but they look very well made. Warning: lots of pictures so slow to load.


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## mavisto

natlowe said:


> Chinese brands probably dont have a warranty of any sort.


Officially, if you look on the Titan Products web page and frame description, there is a lifetime warranty on the frame.

Not sure how I would claim and I'm really hoping I don't have to.


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## mavisto

ekgregory said:


> Mavisto, beautiful frame - I'm looking forward to hearing how the bike rides when it's fully built up.
> 
> After looking at your frame, I am pretty sure mine (on page 1 of this thread) was produced by Titan as well - the flared, integrated head tube, cable routing, and bent stays seem to be very similar. There's a few pictures of their frames on Alibaba that look identical to mine.
> 
> Best of luck with the build!


With a recent house move still ongoing I think it might be a little while before I can complete the build. I also feel I need to get myself a bit fitter to do the frame justice. I've got a 100km sportive organised for May next year, I suspect that might be the big test.


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## satanas

If the frame is well made you shouldn't need a warranty IMHO. In 30+ years I have yet to break a frame, but then I weigh 140 lbs and treat gear gently. At least TP officially has a warranty, something nobody has said about XACD that I've ever seen. The big problem with warranty claims would of course be shipping, although I suppose they might accept digital photos as evidence...


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## mavisto

Broken wrists said:


> ekgregory, I agree, looks to be a Russian, not Chinese frame.
> The brake bridge is exactly the same and I've never seen an XACD frame with this bridge.
> Jimbo


No, it's definately Chinese. Said so on the import documents and was tracked via EMS (also Chinese). It's also not a stock frame with a 230mm head tube and 430mm chainstays as my custom spec.

I hope people are not getting confused? My frame was made by Titan Products of China not Triton Bikes of Russia.


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## satanas

Sorry if I inadvertently caused any confusion. I mentioned Triton as somebody else talked about Russian frames and I thought people might find pictures of their work interesting.


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## ekgregory

mavisto said:


> No, it's definately Chinese. Said so on the import documents and was tracked via EMS (also Chinese). It's also not a stock frame with a 230mm head tube and 430mm chainstays as my custom spec.
> 
> I hope people are not getting confused? My frame was made by Titan Products of China not Triton Bikes of Russia.


Yes, I was referring to Titan Products as well, not Triton. My frame was definitely in China, and I'm pretty sure it's Titan. I've been extremely happy with mine so far.


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## arabiangoggles

do you have a link to this US based middle man?


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## arabiangoggles

would love a ti bike as it is the best of all worlds


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## acg

Anyone tried these guys?
titanium bike frames contact  

The website is registered to a company in Bellevue WA in the States.


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## mavisto

arabiangoggles said:


> do you have a link to this US based middle man?


Which US based middle man?


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## StillKeen

mavisto said:


> My custom frame from Titan Products arrived on the 26th September. That makes it less than a month from initial contact to delivery.
> 
> The frame looks fantastic and appears to match my custom specification exactly. The only thing I missed was a drain hole in the bottom bracket that was not on the first drawing. It shows up on the final drawing, but at this stage I was more concerned about tube lengths and brake bridge distances to notice an extra 4.5mm hole in the bottom bracket. Not to worry though, I remember the days when there were huge slots in the base of bottom brackets, plus there are no worries with rust on this frame.
> 
> I now just have to find the bits to build it up. I've got some carbon forks and some Mirage Shifters, guess it's time to start stripping my other bikes.


Were these pictures they sent you, or do you live in China too? The last one looks like every street in the nicer factory towns in China.


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## mavisto

No I live in the UK.

There is one photo taken by Titan, as you correctly spotted, it's the one outside. All the rest were taken by me.


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## lawrence

How are the welds? Against the tarp they look big and gobby.


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## andersfolke

Hi

Are you still satisfied whit your bike? I am thinking about buying one my self?

Anders


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## Monty Dog

I've just received a shipment of 3 custom frames from Xi'an/XACD/Tilon and they appear to be even better quality than a frame I've had for 5 years. Weld quality certainly isn't gobby - neat and even, comparable with some US brands. Included a custom 60cm CX for a friend (who broke his Litespeed CX) - it has 50mm downtube and headtube (IS44 headset), BB86 shell and oversize chainstays - there's no way that baby is gonna flex! Headtubes and BB shell were machined from 6/4 too.


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## fab4

Monty Dog said:


> I've just received a shipment of 3 custom frames from Xi'an/XACD/Tilon and they appear to be even better quality than a frame I've had for 5 years. Weld quality certainly isn't gobby - neat and even, comparable with some US brands. Included a custom 60cm CX for a friend (who broke his Litespeed CX) - it has 50mm downtube and headtube (IS44 headset), BB86 shell and oversize chainstays - there's no way that baby is gonna flex! Headtubes and BB shell were machined from 6/4 too.


It's great that your XACD frames came out well. Didn't have good experiance with XACD and dealing with their contact person (Porter). I'm currently working with Titan on a custom ti road frame with a tapered (1 1/8 - 1 1/2") headtube and pressfit30 BB shell.The Titan is $450 cheaper compared to XACD and the contact person (Anita) is more professional plus they take paypal payment.


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## Monty Dog

I didn't have a problem with Porter, he's just like many Chinese who don't really understand our Western sensitivities - you can either interpret it as being direct or rude - your call. Here's some photos of the built-up bike which is based on a Breakaway CX with Ritchey-typre seat collar and S+S style coupling on downtube. Raided my spares for most of the parts seeing as it will mainly used for training - the only new parts are the TRP8.4 brakes and the forks. Pleased that I went for BB86 means that I get huge amount of rear tyre clearance and drivetrain is pretty firm - 2 issues I had with my previous frame.


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## Cinelli 82220

Monty, that's a very well thought out bike. :thumbsup:

The welds look nice too. How is the fit for your BB bearings? Do you put them in by themselves or do they fit into a press-in cup?


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## Monty Dog

Bearings were quite an easy fit - the BB shell was machined from a 50mm 6/4 billet so no problems concerning concentricity - did add a big chunk of cost though. There's enough clearance for 2" tyres, so will see plenty of duty as my CX training / pit / travel bike. I'm pleased to say that there's no details I'd change if I were to do it again.


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## Anthony3

Monty Dog said:


> I didn't have a problem with Porter, he's just like many Chinese who don't really understand our Western sensitivities - you can either interpret it as being direct or rude - your call. Here's some photos of the built-up bike which is based on a Breakaway CX with Ritchey-typre seat collar and S+S style coupling on downtube. Raided my spares for most of the parts seeing as it will mainly used for training - the only new parts are the TRP8.4 brakes and the forks. Pleased that I went for BB86 means that I get huge amount of rear tyre clearance and drivetrain is pretty firm - 2 issues I had with my previous frame.


Very nice build!!


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## Plan.B

Welds look good.


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## Bunyan

Monty Dog,

Awesome bike! Maybe I missed it but is that a Triton (Moskow) ot a Trion (Chinese) bike frame?
Do you mind stating what the turnaround time and the cost was?

Do any of these builders use butted ti tubes or are they all straight gauge? Does it really make a difference?


----------



## Bunyan

Sorry, just read above that your frame is a XACD frame. Any chance you have a pix of the 60cm bike with that 50mm down tube? That's right up my alley as to what I'm looking for. I'm 6'6" 280ish and am looking for a builder that can make me a solid frame. 
I'm a newbie for road riding (coming from mtb side) and don't know the difference between BB30 and 86? What builds a stiffer frame?

Happy Holidays!


----------



## darwinosx

ColoRoadie said:


> If a weld cracks, a decent shop local can fix it for less than the cost of shipping the bike to the retailer for warranty work....and its done the same day. At that price, I wouldn't care about warranty either. The welds look pretty good too...far better than some of the custom US shops I've seen in here.


How many local shops weld titanium?


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## lawrence

I weld steel, stainless steel, and aluminum out of my home garage for my "projects". I know the difference between a sloppy weld, a good weld and a weld that looks good but isn't underneath. This is just a guess, I would think you would be hard to find a shop that would weld titanium and then if any has ever even done it. The hardest part building a bike is setting up the pieces for the jig and cutting the angles so the pieces fit exact perfect without gaps. This is like a cabinet builder making good joints. The have to fit without any gaps. There is a difference between the initial weld and a repair. A good repair you should grind off the old weld where it's cracked and reweld it rather than welding on top of it though you don't have grind off the entire weld, only in the area of the crack. There's always a reason for a weld to crack, either a poor weld or stress on the joint. Stress on the joint is a poor design, poor materials which flex too much, or using it for an untended use.



darwinosx said:


> How many local shops weld titanium?


----------



## darwinosx

I remember when the Russians made ti frames and Performance sold them. Poor welds and alignment. I would wonder about alignment on cheap chinese frames. Also the quality of the titanium tubing. But hey maybe they've got the whole thing together now. The Habenero's look interesting. 
My Moots was a $25oo frame when I bought it in 2005. Now they are $3500. Fortunately I expect it to last pretty much forever or for Moots to take care of any issues that should arise. But if I were doing it over again I might look around for better pricing.


----------



## lawrence

Though the Russians have a lot of experience with their space program, almost everything Russian breaks. Their MIGs are terrific, the Space shuttle is still in the air, but they all require high maintenance, their cars fall apart. And because of their titanium welding experience, does not mean the ones making the bike do a good job. There is a big difference between knowing how to do a good job and having the desire and want to do a good job. Their are butchers in every field.


----------



## darwinosx

Agree. The Russians and chinese have been welding titanium for a long time but the quality of the material and work is not up to par in most cases. Maybe its better in a product made for western purchase though.


----------



## BacDoc

Speaking of Russian Ti frames, I just ordered a 29 MTB frame from Triton. If you check out the MTB threads and the website, you will se their history with trials bikes. Any frame that can take trial bike competition has to have good strong welds. Those guys routinely go 6' to flat as well jumping rails and rocks. Also, the owner Dimitry, appears to be as stoked as anybody in the biz. E mail communication as well as feedback from some american riders indicate some serious mojo going down in that factory.

The triton frames are a great buy now and once the word gets out I'm sure the price and wait time will go up. Those looking for a great price on a custom Ti frame as well as an alternative to the Asian domination should jump on this.

Besides having one on order I have nothing to do with the company, just giving a heads up to those looking into Ti frames.


----------



## Monty Dog

Bunyan said:


> Sorry, just read above that your frame is a XACD frame. Any chance you have a pix of the 60cm bike with that 50mm down tube? That's right up my alley as to what I'm looking for. I'm 6'6" 280ish and am looking for a builder that can make me a solid frame.
> I'm a newbie for road riding (coming from mtb side) and don't know the difference between BB30 and 86? What builds a stiffer frame?
> 
> Happy Holidays!


Hi, frame is with my friend who's been away on holiday but will try and get some photos.
Whilst the BB shells for BB30 and BB86 are similar in diameter, the BB86 shell is nearly 20mm wider and therefore allows the chainstays to be further apart and therefore stiffer. Frankly, I just don't understand the obsession with BB30 for CX and MTB because the determining factor is the width of the rear tyre and chainstays.


----------



## Bunyan

Cool, thx for the explanation. That does make sense as far as bb goes. 
Would love to see the pics when you get around to it. 
Thx


----------



## rbwbabs

*XACD couplers*



Broken wrists said:


> I had XACD make fake S&S couplers. They tighten and stay tight. Unfortunately, the lower one has a squeak which is quite noticeable when standing and climbing.
> If I were to do it again, I'd get real S&S couplers just to avoid concerns about reliability.
> Just after getting my frame, my local bike shop got a shipment of titanium frames made in Taiwan which look great. The cost of one with S&S couplers would likely be about $2K, twice what I paid for the frame but reasonable to me.
> 
> If you plan to use the bike for a trip a few times a year I'd give the XACD couplers a try - they added $245 to the cost of the frame if I recall. If this is your round the world bike, I'd go with genuine S&S.
> 
> One advantage of going with XACD is they would make chainstays as stout as you like - I went with 1.6 mm wall thickness, and the frame is noticeably stiffer through the rear triangle than any other Ti bike I've ever tried. Also, cost of the frame delivered was $1100.00 which included the upcharge for couplers and the upcharge for the curved chainstays.
> 
> Jimbo


Hi Jimbo,
Could you please send me details/pics/ exact wording you used to order these with ?Porter at XACD . I have a frame with one tube 2mm too small for standard SS couplers and have been waiting for Enigma to get round the problem for 10 months.
Thanks,
Babs


----------



## darwinosx

I seriously doubt you found 12 bike shops that weld ti in 200 miles. So if its place that welds ti but knows nothing about bike alignment then..it doesn't count.



Mel Erickson said:


> A quick google found 12 shops that weld Ti within 200 miles of me. Not vouching for their expertise. The key (besides knowing how to weld Ti well) is having a jig to keep everything in alignment. That's where a good Ti frame builder comes in handy. There's also the local technical college that has a full complement of welding programs, including Ti. In fact, each student must complete a project where something is fabricated from each of the different types of materials using the proper welding techniques. I wouldn't hesitate to take a bicycle frame to them. Kids have made Ti bike stems and H style handlebars. The professors insure the welding is done properly and you can even get it xrayed!
> 
> Yes, it's not like taking it to the local weld shop and even with the proper equipment it's still more difficult than other metals. However, it ain't rocket science.


----------



## Broken wrists

Hi, 
I haven't kept the emails back and forth to Porter. 
However, there were several changes to the design from the original. One issue was that there would be new changes that were not mentioned in each revision. For example, Porter knows nothing about standard fork specs. I said I had an Easton EC90X cyclocross fork with a 400 mm axle center to lower race seat distance. It was changed back to 368 on 3 occasions. I think it is best to go over every detail of the design carefully before contacting Porter as it is best if his first crack at it has everything right. 
You must check everything. There is a case in this forum where a newsboy style bike had the hole for the rear brake at a crazy angle. 

I will try to attach my design. 

Also, what about changing the tube for a larger one which fits a coupler? I see some builders install the couplers in the tube before assembling the frame. I saw photos illustrating this on Hugh Black's web site (True North Cyles, in Guelph, ON Canada). 
Hope this helps. 

Hmm, it seems I can't attach my design. Send me your email and I'll send it along. 
Jimbo


----------



## rbwbabs

Broken wrists said:


> Hi,
> I haven't kept the emails back and forth to Porter.
> However, there were several changes to the design from the original. One issue was that there would be new changes that were not mentioned in each revision. For example, Porter knows nothing about standard fork specs. I said I had an Easton EC90X cyclocross fork with a 400 mm axle center to lower race seat distance. It was changed back to 368 on 3 occasions. I think it is best to go over every detail of the design carefully before contacting Porter as it is best if his first crack at it has everything right.
> You must check everything. There is a case in this forum where a newsboy style bike had the hole for the rear brake at a crazy angle.
> 
> I will try to attach my design.
> 
> Also, what about changing the tube for a larger one which fits a coupler? I see some builders install the couplers in the tube before assembling the frame. I saw photos illustrating this on Hugh Black's web site (True North Cyles, in Guelph, ON Canada).
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Hmm, it seems I can't attach my design. Send me your email and I'll send it along.
> Jimbo


Thanks for the quick reply Jimbo,
I am hoping to order couplers only and was actually only after your interchanges on the ss couplers. Many people have referred to language difficulties with Porter for those of us without Chinese.Want to have the best chance of him knowing exactly what I am requesting.
Forum's just prevented me posting my email address coz I've less than 10 posts. Can send it to yours directly ?
Thanks
Again
Babs


----------



## skive

mavisto said:


> No, not at all. The frame was $730, but that included the integrated headset and brushed finish. I'm not sure where you are from, but delivery to the UK was another $103. Total in GPB was about £530 given the exchange rate. If you buy via AliExpress, you can pay by credit card so no extra charges for bankers drafts or paypal.
> 
> It is really a full custom frame. I specified the head tube and seat tube angles, chainstay length, seat tube length, BB drop and brake bridge position. I also don't like the 'Breezer' dropouts, so I asked them to change them for a more trad style as seen in the photo.



did you pick up import taxes as the frame came into the country?

thanks


----------



## mavisto

skive said:


> did you pick up import taxes as the frame came into the country?
> 
> thanks



No taxes or import duty. Sailed through UK customs in a day.


----------



## skive

mavisto said:


> No taxes or import duty. Sailed through UK customs in a day.


cheers mate


----------



## fab4

*Titan Custom Ti Frame & Parts*

Here's my custom ti road frame from Titan. It has a tapered 1 1/8" - 1 1/5" headtube, pressfit 30 bb shell, and replaceable dropouts. Not the lightest of frame at 3.35lbs but finish quality is very good and the ride is fantastic after 1000 miles. Also got the ti stem, seatpost, and spacers from them.Titan is cheaper and customer service is a hell of a lot better than XACD. Titan delivered the frame in 4 weeks as stated unlike XACD who will tell you 4 weeks but in reality 13 weeks.


----------



## maxxevv

That's a fairly decent frame you've got there. How much was it for the frame alone excluding shipping that is? 

Only comment I've got for the complete bike is those colours! Think a matching Fizik bartape would do wonders on how the whole setup looks ! Or some white tape with a white saddle...


----------



## fab4

maxxevv said:


> That's a fairly decent frame you've got there. How much was it for the frame alone excluding shipping that is?
> 
> Only comment I've got for the complete bike is those colours! Think a matching Fizik bartape would do wonders on how the whole setup looks ! Or some white tape with a white saddle...


Thanks. It's definitely not a Moots or Lynskey but for $580 with custom geometry and build I'm not complaining.


----------



## giosblue

Interesting thread with lots of nice pics. and it reinforces my belief in that you get what you pay for.


----------



## box handler

Aren't the BikesDirect Motobecane's made in China? People seem to like their Ti model, although new it costs the same as a used Litespeed. I know which way I'd go (the one with a soul...).


----------



## Dajianshan

Taiwan, actually. 

I talked to their OEM. Very nice shop.


----------



## box handler

Dajianshan said:


> Taiwan, actually.
> 
> I talked to their OEM. Very nice shop.


Well, I've heard that Taiwan is putting out better bikes than China (I believe it's what Soma uses as their defense for outsourcing). Any truth to this? It still baffles me that the old guard no longer builds in Italy and still charges several times what other made in China/Taiwan bikes cost. Not to hijack the thread, but if anything it's tacit support for the OP's decision to look for an overseas Ti.


----------



## echo7

I emailed XACD re the price for the SP 32 seatpost.
Does anyone have any comments or opinion about this seatpost?

Untitled Document


----------



## dynamic_e

box handler said:


> Well, I've heard that Taiwan is putting out better bikes than China (I believe it's what Soma uses as their defense for outsourcing). Any truth to this? It still baffles me that the old guard no longer builds in Italy and still charges several times what other made in China/Taiwan bikes cost. Not to hijack the thread, but if anything it's tacit support for the OP's decision to look for an overseas Ti.


Taiwan is home to the big bike OEMs like Giant and Merida. They have been making high quality bikes for a long time now. Many American and European brands have their frames made in Taiwan and shipped back to the home country for final finish/paint and proclaim that they are made in their country.


----------



## echo7

I agree. 
not only with bikes but also food...
shrimps harvested in pacific ocean via china.. repacked in Nova Scotia Canada is declared as product of canada..


----------



## echo7

echo7 said:


> I emailed XACD re the price for the SP 32 seatpost.
> Does anyone have any comments or opinion about this seatpost?
> 
> Untitled Document


so i received an email from porter..

Our price is following:
Ti seat post(SP-32)
FOB XI'AN USD89.00/pcs 1pcs USD89.00
Shipping costs(EMS express):USD40.00
Handle charge:USD20.00
Total:USD149.00

Price of the actual seatpost is good but the shipping and handling kills the deal.
I cant believe the shipping is $40 and handling fee of 20$. I mean 20$ handling for a 200gram seatpost !...... better off buying from TI cycles..


----------



## krisdrum

fab4 said:


> Thanks. It's definitely not a Moots or Lynskey but for $580 with custom geometry and build I'm not complaining.


Link to the manufacturer's website? I've been looking for an alternative to XACD.


----------



## lawrence

*Triton more expensive than XACD*

I got a price for the Russian Ti frame, Triton. They want $1,065 shipped to the U.S., this is substantially more than XACD. Habanero wants $1340+. or a custom frame, $400 less for a stock frame.


----------



## krisdrum

lawrence said:


> I got a price for the Russian Ti frame, Triton. They want $1,065 shipped to the U.S., this is substantially more than XACD. Habanero wants $1340+. or a custom frame, $400 less for a stock frame.


I was referring specifically to the Titan frame fab4 had built.


----------



## fab4

krisdrum said:


> Link to the manufacturer's website? I've been looking for an alternative to XACD.


You can find them at http://titanproduct.com/. Contact person goes by the name of "Anita" email address of [email protected]. Do yourself a favor and go with Titan. XACD is way more expensive and "Porter" is an a$$#07e.


----------



## fab4

echo7 said:


> so i received an email from porter..
> 
> Our price is following:
> Ti seat post(SP-32)
> FOB XI'AN USD89.00/pcs 1pcs USD89.00
> Shipping costs(EMS express):USD40.00
> Handle charge:USD20.00
> Total:USD149.00
> 
> Price of the actual seatpost is good but the shipping and handling kills the deal.
> I cant believe the shipping is $40 and handling fee of 20$. I mean 20$ handling for a 200gram seatpost !...... better off buying from TI cycles..


I bought my ti seatpost from Titan for $57 plus $30 shipping with no BS handling fee. Plus they take paypal. Do yourself a favor and go with Titan. 
http://titanproduct.com/


----------



## krisdrum

fab4 said:


> You can find them at http://titanproduct.com/. Contact person goes by the name of "Anita" email address of [email protected]. Do yourself a favor and go with Titan. XACD is way more expensive and "Porter" is an a$$#07e.


Thanks.


----------



## lawrence

*titan spec questions, I'm confused*

Off Titan's website, it says for road frame "_Features: 1.11/2" head tube 2.with Di2 cable running 3.PF BB30 shell_"

What is 1.1 1/2" head tube? I thought head tubes were 1" or 1 1/8" inch and most today are 1 1/8".

Next it says, head tube 2. What's that?

Thirdly is says cable running 3.PF, What's 3.PF?

Fourthly, BB30 shell? I just switched a bike over from a threaded ISIS to outboard bearings which I thought was a threaded BB30. I want a threaded shell as I have a crank that requires that. I don't know the difference between a threaded bb for ISIS or a threaded BB for BB30. If this bb is the same for both, then why mentioned BB30?


----------



## Ramjm_2000

lawrence said:


> Off Titan's website, it says for road frame "_Features: 1.11/2" head tube 2.with Di2 cable running 3.PF BB30 shell_"
> 
> What is 1.1 1/2" head tube? I thought head tubes were 1" or 1 1/8" inch and most today are 1 1/8".
> 
> Next it says, head tube 2. What's that?
> 
> Thirdly is says cable running 3.PF, What's 3.PF?
> 
> Fourthly, BB30 shell? I just switched a bike over from a threaded ISIS to outboard bearings which I thought was a threaded BB30. I want a threaded shell as I have a crank that requires that. I don't know the difference between a threaded bb for ISIS or a threaded BB for BB30. If this bb is the same for both, then why mentioned BB30?


Lots of questions here:

1. I believe they mean 1.5" headtube. This is a newly adapted Oversize standard. 1" and 1 1/8" are steerer sizes, not headtube sizes. 

2. Again I assume they are referring to Di2 compatible headtube (hole drilled for the wiring harness).

3 and 4 PF= Press Fit or more specifically a press fit BB30 bottom bracket shell. If you have a standard English threaded BB you will have to press in an adapter to use your existing cranks. 

JR


----------



## lawrence

Now that you've explained it, this is what is on Titan's website:
Features: 1.11/2" head tube 2.with Di2 cable running 3.PF BB30 shell

They've run it on so it was confusinig

And this is what it should say, 1) 2) 3)
Features:
1. 11/2" head tube
2. with Di2 cable running
3. PF BB30 shell


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Actually:

1. 1 1/2" head tube
2. Di2 Compatible cable routing
3. PF BB30 shell


[/QUOTE]



lawrence said:


> Now that you've explained it, this is what is on Titan's website:
> Features: 1.11/2" head tube 2.with Di2 cable running 3.PF BB30 shell
> 
> They've run it on so it was confusinig
> 
> And this is what it should say, 1) 2) 3)
> Features:
> 1. 11/2" head tube
> 2. with Di2 cable running
> 3. PF BB30 shell


----------



## echo7

fab4 said:


> I bought my ti seatpost from Titan for $57 plus $30 shipping with no BS handling fee. Plus they take paypal. Do yourself a favor and go with Titan.
> Xi'an titanproduct Co., Ltd


Hi FAB4
what kind of seatpost did you purchased?
can you post a pic?
thanks


----------



## fab4

echo7 said:


> Hi FAB4
> what kind of seatpost did you purchased?
> can you post a pic?
> thanks


I bought the one with the height measurement marking with 0 setback.


----------



## lawrence

*Caron vs Titanium seat posts*

Is there more vibration dampening with a titanium seatpost than there is with a carbon seatpost?


----------



## echo7

fab4 said:


> I bought the one with the height measurement marking with 0 setback.


thanks FAB4.
the seatpost looks well made..
I am , however looking for a setback seatpost.. will contact titan and get a price qoute


----------



## markrhino

love this bike! How has it been?


----------



## markrhino

I'm getting a frame made up and would love some advice on tubing size.
I'm thinking DT 42, ST 34.9, TT 34.9, CS 22.2, SS 19. Is this overkill? Would it be too heavy?


----------



## tbachorski

Great post, I love the bike, it has me considering ti now over Carbon. I am hesitant in building my own bike from the ground up though.


----------



## fab4

markrhino said:


> I'm getting a frame made up and would love some advice on tubing size.
> I'm thinking DT 42, ST 34.9, TT 34.9, CS 22.2, SS 19. Is this overkill? Would it be too heavy?


That will build into a nice stiff frame. Weight wise it might be in the high 3lb. Mine has 31.8 x .9 DT, ST, & TT. 16 x .9 ST, & 22.2 x .9 CS. Just perfect for the long rides I do. I'm 200lbs and like to spin.


----------



## lawrence

fab4 said:


> That will build into a nice stiff frame. Weight wise it might be in the high 3lb. Mine has 31.8 x .9 DT, ST, & TT. 16 x .9 ST, & 22.2 x .9 CS. Just perfect for the long rides I do. I'm 200lbs and like to spin.


I want to order a custom Ti frame, probably from Titan Products. I had a custom fitting and have the dimensions and angles for all the tubing but was are these #s above?, 16 x .9 ST (seat tube? but what are the numbers, here and other) 22.2 x 9CS ?????


----------



## krisdrum

lawrence said:


> I want to order a custom Ti frame, probably from Titan Products. I had a custom fitting and have the dimensions and angles for all the tubing but was are these #s above?, 16 x .9 ST (seat tube? but what are the numbers, here and other) 22.2 x 9CS ?????


They are tube diameters and wall thicknesses.


----------



## markrhino

Down tube (DT), Seat Tube (ST), Top Tube (TT), Chain Stay (CS), Seat Stay (SS). And the numbers are the tubing diameter and thickness in mm. 16mm diameter x 0.9mm tubing wall thickness.


----------



## lawrence

What do these numbers mean? Deciphering the numbers. How do you know what tube diameters and thicknesses to order? Will Titan guide you and are they qualified to guide you?


----------



## markrhino

A lot of research, personal preference and a ship load of guesswork.
Titan are a lot more helpful than most of the other Chinese titanium frame builders but can't really advise on tube size.


----------



## echo7

I guess this is when the US makers shine.. a good example is Sevencycles, they can tell you the perfect tubing for your weight. age, body geometry and ride style.. but then the price is 3x the chinese frames.


----------



## markrhino

How can a frame manufacturer tell what frame geometry and tube sizing you need without seeing you ride? Two people with identical builds and weight could require very different geometry. Do you mean US manufacturers that you go and visit personally?


----------



## echo7

Yes.. sevencycles has accredited bike shops that do the fitting. They have bike fitting kits, questionairre and interview from the actual engineers/designers to make you a bike that fits like a glove. The bike will be tailored on how stiff or compliant it will be.. Will it be used for touring or racing or 50/50?. 

the weight of the cyclist is also a consideration since a tube too thick may be too stiff for a light rider OR tube too thin may be wobbly for heavy rider...etc etc.. But then as said.. you pay triple the price for this..

I hope the chinese/taiwanese makers can come up with this fitting process or at least a guide to which tubing thickness to choose...


----------



## lawrence

It also seems it comes down to the quality of the bike shops doing the work, the skills, talent, knowledge of the bike shop fitter. In my area there are 10 bike shops and only 2 shops do the right job with bike fittings, and I'm suppose to trust a Seven dealer because they are associated with Seven?


----------



## echo7

that's true,, there are so many variables, but the objective is to narrow down to which suit you best and to the people you TRUST has the knowledge how to do it.. if you can do your own fitting and selection of materials,, there's no need to get fitted by a shop..


----------



## Bunyan

Interesting read. Regarding the tubing specs and what size, etc, you could always get fitted at a local shop and send them your numbers so they have something to go by. My custom builder from Moscow (currently building me a monster road frame) uses "Bike CAD pro" program to supplement the fitting I got locally. I'm sure the Chinese builders have some sort of CAD program as well.


----------



## mavisto

markrhino said:


> I'm getting a frame made up and would love some advice on tubing size.
> I'm thinking DT 42, ST 34.9, TT 34.9, CS 22.2, SS 19. Is this overkill? Would it be too heavy?


Here is a photo of my Audax Frame from Titan Products. The frame tubes are exactly as you have quoted. The weight was 1.6kg or 3.6lbs and that was with a 230mm headtube.


----------



## paule11

Nice bike you must be tall


----------



## Bunyan

Mavisto,

Great looking bike! How big a guy are you? Did they use butted or straight gauge tubing? Can you give us the diameter of the tubing? Is the frame pretty stiff?


----------



## mavisto

Cheers, I'm very happy with it.

I'm not as tall as some, but at 6'4" with a 37" inseam and a few flexibility issues, I thought going this route would be the ideal solution.


----------



## mavisto

Bunyan

Tube dimentions are exactly as specified in Markrhino's post above. The are plain guage NOT butted ( I need to loose the weight rather than the bike).

I've tried to get a balance between the frame being stiff enough for my weight and not loosing the benefit of Titanium.


----------



## satanas

fab4 said:


> Mine has 31.8 x .9 DT, ST, & TT. 16 x .9 SS, & 22.2 x .9 CS. Just perfect for the long rides I do. I'm 200lbs and like to spin.


That's an interesting tubing spec, and smaller than most people might suggest. I've been considering getting something for a similar purpose but weigh about 140 lbs, so I'm wondering how much smaller I can afford to go. IIRC, Triton (Russia) uses 20mm chainstays and 17mm seatstays as default on MTB frames, so I'm thinking for me the smallest stays possible, plus 31.8x0.9 DT and ST - the seat tube can't really be 28.6mm without causing problems finding seatposts - and perhaps a 28.6 x 0.9mm top tube. I wonder if they have any <16mm or <0.9mm wall thickness seatstays???

Also, has anyone got any Ti forks from Titan, and if so, how do they ride and how much do they weigh please?


----------



## Turnyface

What's the pricing on these frames?


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

Give ... [email protected]
an email with the specs of the frame you need and they will tell you ...


----------



## maxxevv

Would suggest at least a 34.9 DT. And maybe even a 34.9 ST too if lateral stiffness is a priority.


----------



## jasg

Anyone have experience with having gotten the SS coupler / takeapart style from Titan Products? Or any non-XACD company? thanks. Nice seeing the pictures and seeing that there's a way to pay via paypal instead of doing a wire transfer to an unknown entity somewhere in the world.


----------



## Broken wrists

I have a frame from XACD with fake S+S couplers. The S+S wrench works perfectly. The downtube coupler squeaks unless the coupler is tightened very tightly. 
Frame weight was 2 kg, with very thick wall chainstays, rides with no flex, even with panniers. 
For what I paid, I did well. See my other posts for photos and other info. 
Jimbo


----------



## cohiba7777

*Very True*



martinrjensen said:


> I believe either mig or tig welding does that. It's uses an inert gas (usually nitrogen) to displace Oxygen when welding. It's not a big deal. I'm sure there is a learning curve to welding Titanium but probably not insurmountable. Regardless welding in an oxygen free environment is common place


True - Argon is also used and, like nitrogen, common in many machine and welding shops.


----------



## froze

Why bother with this stuff? When you can get a Motobecane TI bike for a lot less then a Habanero through Bikes Direct, and their made in Taiwan which has far better quality control because they embrace the Western way of manufacturing. And you get a 100 year warranty, that might be long enough.

Heck for the price of a Habanero you might as well get a Lynskey promo priced bike made in the USA.

This is Motobecane's lowest costing TI road bike, go to their web site if you want something with better components: Road Bikes, Titanium Frame SRAM Rival Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Le Champion Ti Heat | Butted and multi-shaped titanium tubing with High modulus carbon fiber fork


----------



## jasg

@f - 

seems the motobecane Ti is sold out.

Also, the frames ordered can have the geometry perfectly customized, and other small options added if desired. While that might not be so interesting on a road bike, which is the simplest design possible, on touring or mountain that can be interesting.

But downsides clearly are - will you have any warranty remedy if something goes wrong, and how much will it cost you just to get it there and back if they do honor warranty or remember you.


----------



## T0mi

jasg said:


> @f -
> But downsides clearly are - will you have any warranty remedy if something goes wrong, and how much will it cost you just to get it there and back if they do honor warranty or remember you.


It's funny to read that. From my experience in the carbon area, most chinese and taiwanese factories have a better customer services than big brands. Most of the time in case of a failure or bad part they just send a new one on the basis of a photo and do not even require you to send them back the fauly one. And they answer very promptly. I doubt it is different in the case of ti ones.


----------



## jasg

T0mi said:


> It's funny to read that. From my experience in the carbon area, most chinese and taiwanese factories have a better customer services than big brands. Most of the time in case of a failure or


Your experience with what items in carbon ? You're telling me that if a frame looks cracked, they will just send you a new one ? I have a bit of a hard time believing that - can you post your sources for such.

Back to titanium, many of these are custom, and these companies are building on demand. Material costs are higher.

Any company just sending out a free replacement without following a proper claim process may do this once. Then a forum person spreads the word, and that was the last time, or they go out of business.

There are documented cases of this NOT happening with XACD at least, so your opinion is already unproven with the context in question. With some people many many months to get their product, how could you even think that this could be possible.


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

Updates from your Ti frames anyone???


----------



## markrhino

I've had to send my frame back. There was no way they were going to send me a replacement frame without me first returning this frame. They are happy to pay for postage too, even though it will cost them as much in postage as what the frame is worth. Maybe the carbon manufacturers can get away with this sort of practice but the Ti manufacturers definitely don't.


----------



## mavisto

markrhino said:


> I've had to send my frame back. There was no way they were going to send me a replacement frame without me first returning this frame. They are happy to pay for postage too, even though it will cost them as much in postage as what the frame is worth. Maybe the carbon manufacturers can get away with this sort of practice but the Ti manufacturers definitely don't.


What was wrong with it?

Also, who built it?


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

Don't tell me it was from Titan?


----------



## markrhino

Headtube was bent, most likely from the heat of welding to the top and down tubes. Headsets wouldn't sit in properly and even when we tried to seat the headset the fork wouldn't fit through. A lemon. But like i mentioned, they were happy to pay for return postage and a refund. Although i am still waiting on this. Once i have it built, i intend to post all the details.

Yes, Titan. Why?


----------



## mavisto

I did notice on my Titan that the head tube was very slightly ovalised and I do mean very (about 0.3mm). They also machined the integrated head tube to Cane Creek standard and not Campag as I had specified.

I was beginning to panic a bit when my nice Campag headset was not getting anywhere close to going in the frame.

It was all sorted when a friend brought round his headset guage and we worked out that a Crane Creek 41.1mm headset was actually the one I needed.


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

markrhino said:


> Headtube was bent, most likely from the heat of welding to the top and down tubes. Headsets wouldn't sit in properly and even when we tried to seat the headset the fork wouldn't fit through ... Yes, Titan. Why?


Because I have just ordered a frame from them 2 weeks ago? 

Headtube bent from welding is not a good sign of a frame builder is it? Because ... welding is one of the main activity, if not THE MAIN, of any frame build?

I will wait and see before I jump to conclusions ... _I guess you will get what you pay for_ ...


----------



## froze

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n;3975411
I will wait and see before I jump to conclusions ... [I said:


> I guess you will get what you pay for[/I] ...


Usually this is true, but they haven't had those issues, or for that matter any issues with the Motobecane TI frames that you can buy just the frame and CF fork at Bikes Direct for $999.70


----------



## lawrence

But you wouldn't have a custom built sized frame if that's what you choose to do.


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

froze ... I see what you mean ...

View attachment 259813


is that a semi-integrated/integrated headset? hmm ...

very competitive pricing ... but not for those looking for custom geometry ...


----------



## markrhino

Great looking bike. Certainly if u wanted an off the shelf bike this would be the way to go. Prices are amazing, however i noticed there none available until maybe Sept.


----------



## froze

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> froze ... I see what you mean ...
> 
> View attachment 259813
> 
> 
> is that a semi-integrated/integrated headset? hmm ...
> 
> very competitive pricing ... but not for those looking for custom geometry ...


Of course it's not custom, but most people don't need custom nor can afford custom; and a custom TI bike is outrageously expensive. I have one custom bike, a Mercian I bought new in 07, I fit it just as well as I fit my other bikes that were bought new off the shelf, or used off the shelf geometries and the sizes range from 55 to 59 and have no issues with fit...of course I spent time dialing them in, and had to make minor part replacements with stems and saddles on a couple. But the point is most people really don't need a custom bike, but rather they just want one; I didn't need a custom Mercian, but I wanted one...mostly for looks!


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

they have some very nice looking frames ... something I can only lust after as there is no more 'space allocation' :cryin: (by the missus) for another bike. 1 mtb and 1 road that is it ... 

i like the font on their branding
View attachment 259849


----------



## Colnagonut

save up and buy mainland mfgs.


----------



## froze

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> they have some very nice looking frames ... something I can only lust after as there is no more 'space allocation' :cryin: (by the missus) for another bike. 1 mtb and 1 road that is it ...
> 
> i like the font on their branding
> View attachment 259849



I'm an older guy so the oldest bike I have I bought new in 84, I just kept it and add others either new or used. I have 8 bikes, including 2 mtbs, of those one of the mtb's was found in a dumpster, and 3 road bikes were bought used for $100 or less. I keep my stuff in my basement. There are some guys here that have 30 plus bikes! I don't need that many. 

Your looking at a person who's been collecting these bikes over almost a 30 year period, over 30 years it's not really that many bikes. Used bikes lately have been going for prices too ridiculous in my opinion. I see old heavy low end lugged steel bikes in just fair condition now wanting over $250 around where I live, that's nuts for cheap piles of junk, so it will be luck before I buy another used bike, but I keep my eye open all the time...mostly so I can drive my wife nuts!!!


----------



## classicroad

Hi everyone,

I recently purchased a "Chinese-made" titanium frame. This is all I know about the manufacturer:

1. He sells frames through eBay: J&L Titanium road bike frame-Ti/50~60-1350g | eBay

2. According to the seller "the frame is made in Taiwan, by the producer who used to do OEM for Bianchi."

3. The seller ships the frames from mainland China.

The purchase process was fairly smooth. Because there was some (minor) customization involved, the seller warned me that it would take 2.5 months to have the frame completed. Actually, it only took about a month from the time I placed the order to the time I received the frame (I live in Illinois).

The frame was appropriately packed, even though they could have used a bit more padding. I am fairly pleased with the frame, but I'll let you guys comment (see the photos below). I am not a big fan of the tapered headtube, and frankly I was expecting a "straight" headtube, but it's bothering me less and less the more I look at it...

I paid exactly $1000, shipping included. Also, the advertised weight was 1350g (for a 54cm frame). Actual weight is 1410g (for a 52.5cm frame). Beforehand the seller had given me the usual disclaimer that "actual weight may vary."

Please look at the pics and let me know what you think.

Also, if you have *suggestions for a fork*, for this frame, please post them! I was thinking that, because of the geometry of the frame, a straight-blade fork would look best, but I'm open to other possibilities. I'm also open regarding the question of carbon steerer tube vs. alloy steerer tube.

Thanks! I look forward to reading your comments!!!


----------



## classicroad

*Photos*

The photos were not posted in my previous comment. My apologies (still figuring out how this works). Hopefully the photos can be seen below.

https://picasaweb.google.com/117749114428760627178/TitaniumFrame2012


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

To post pictures, would recommend you keep to a maximum size of not more than 200kb and not more than 600 pixels on the longest side ...

btw ... the frame looks very good to me ... :thumbsup:

I used a curved fork for my Ti frame, for extra damping ...
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/my-first-road-bike-build-279319.html


----------



## markrhino

This is a warning to all those thinking of buying a Chinese Titanium frame from Xi’an Titan Product.
The following is my personal experience of buying a titanium frame.
Unfortunately I seem to be one of those people who if you’ve heard of some crazy sh#* thing happening to someone and thought ‘its just an urban myth’ or ‘that’s something that rarely happens to anyone’, well, it usually happens to me.
After much researching I narrowed frame builders down to Titan Product and XACD. I found trying to deal with Porter at XACD a complete headache. The bloke is a pain in the arse. He has a massive chip on his shoulder and I figured, should I have any problems, dealing with him would be a nightmare. Anita at Xi’an Titan Product however was easy to converse with.
After many emails back and forth I eventually finalised my frame dimensions. It took approximately 4 weeks from payment until the frame arrived.
Out of the box it looked great. I proudly took it to my LBS to have the headset pressed in. 
And this is where it turns to crap. Upon inspecting the head tube the LBS mechanic found the head tube bent. Being vertically bent meant the ends were no longer perpendicular but on top of this each side of the head tube was not equal. The head tube closest to the join of the down tube and top tube had shrunk so that it was shorter than the front of the head tube.
Regardless of this I instructed the mechanic to press the headset in anyway, just to see what happens. The headsets did not sit properly; there was a gap in some areas between the headset and the head tube. Then, when trying to fit the fork through, it would not fit. After a little fidgeting it finally pushed through but would not rotate easily due to the forces the bent head tube (and therefore headset) put onto it.
After I finished throwing a tantrum, which included much swearing and kicking whatever I wouldn’t break my foot on, I decided to take the frame to another LBS to get a second opinion. They also told me the head tube was stuffed and even pointed out the uneven markings on the headset once it had been removed. Indicating a head tube that was not round either. Great. Still not happy and in denial I took it to a third LBS, same diagnosis.
I contact Anita at Xi’an Titan and told her the problem. She said I could either return the frame and they would refund shipping and the frame cost or they would pay for the frame to be fixed locally.
I decided it would be easier if I simply returned the frame and got a replacement.
When they received the frame back they initially gave me 2 options:
1. A full refund
2. CNC head tube out and replace it.
I told them I would simply like a refund.
They refused. Nice choice eh?
Anita at Xi’an Titan Product told me their ‘Engineer’ had looked at the frame and found it to be fine. (They also said they inspected the frame before it left and said it was fine). They said they would return the frame but refused to refund my money as they had previously promised.
I now don’t want the frame back as I don’t know what they have done to it. Whether they have cut the head tube out and replaced it or bent it somehow or faced the head tube. I have no idea how they have decided a head tube was functional when 3 independent LBS wrenches here in Australia can assess it as being f*#@ed?
I have now had to put a dispute in through Alibaba in the hope they will force Xi’an Titan Product to refund my money but it is looking unlikely.
Other wonderful quotes from Anita is that they ‘produce 1000s of frames every year and they have never had a problem’. I find this very unlikely. No company in the world who produce 1000s of items per year have no problems at all.
And ‘The bending is unavoidable to weld large downtube to a long headtube’. So anyone looking to buy a Ti frame off these guys, make sure your head tube is less than 15cm long.
On top of all of this I bought a number of titanium bolts from them that never arrived. Anita told me she packaged them in the box with the frame but unless someone opened the box and took them out (unlikely) they were never sent with the frame.
It is horrible that Anita at Titan assured me that they would pay for not only refunding the frame but for return shipping but as soon as they had the frame back they changed their mind and refused any refund at all.
I saw a number of happy stories from people who had bought frames from them and little bad stories. Well, here’s your bad story.
Further to this, through the AliExpress feedback system, I gave Xi’an Titan Product a 1 star feedback rating on the transaction. This has never appeared on the website. They still have a 100% positive feedback rating on their AliExpress site.
So, there you have it. You have been warned. Use my experience to way up the pro’s and con’s. I thought Titan Product was the best of the bad lot but I was wrong. They are as dishonest as the rest of them, so take your chances. 
Anyone looking for further info, feel free to PM me.
(PS – You’ll find my post in a few bike forums to get the message out there.)
Forewarned is forearmed.


----------



## froze

MarkRhino; sorry you had so much trouble with your frame, that was crazy. So what ever did you do with the frame? 

Problem with dealing directly with a Chinese supplier is getting service after the fact, if you have a problem more then likely your dead in the water, and none of the American protection agencies or any amount of lawyers can do a darn thing to help you, the only option is to hire a mafia hit squad. Chinese have always been able to change their review ratings, but quite frankly I think some E-Bay sellers have been able to do the same thing, and probably some other companies in America.

This is why for low cost TI bikes I like the Motobecane bikes. Bikes Direct advertises here on this website, they know darn right well if they give someone grief it will be posted here as well as other forums and sales will drop. So BD goes out of their way to make sure any warranty issues are handled quickly.


----------



## Bunyan

markrhino said:


> And ‘The bending is unavoidable to weld large downtube to a long headtube’. So anyone looking to buy a Ti frame off these guys, make sure your head tube is less than 15cm long.


I'm curious about this as I am having a 215mm head tube built up. Granted it's from another builder but I wanted to see if there is any more info out there regarding this issue.


----------



## markrhino

Any decent manufacturer will have no problems with a long head tube, regardless of its length.


----------



## IRFilter

titanium or carbon?


----------



## froze

IRFilter said:


> titanium or carbon?


Titanium or Carbon what?


----------



## Superbiker

Look at Habanero cycles too. They are chinese made and offer a decent warranty too.Tyler Durden


----------



## froze

Why buy Chinese TI Habanero bike for almost twice the price of a comparably equipped Taiwan made Motobecane TI? If your going to pay that much for the Habanero you might as well buy the Lynskey TI bike (the Cooper) and have a American made bike!!


----------



## markrhino

Habenero and BikesDirect do not ship to Australia.


----------



## froze

markrhino said:


> Habenero and BikesDirect do not ship to Australia.


There was a Aussie that had a Bike Direct TI bike sent to a friend he had in America, the American friend then sent it on to the Aussie who paid his friend for the shipping. The Aussie claimed that even with shipping he couldn't come close to the price in his country for what he got from BD.

Besides the point of shipping, Lynskey will ship to Australia and the bike itself will cost about the same as the Habenero so why bother with the Hab?


----------



## froze

bikinfranny said:


> Anybody out there have any feedback on the dogma 2 Pinarello 2012.


You need to start a new post in regards to your question, you'll get more of a response, this post is a rant on Chinese Titanium frames.


----------



## froze

bikinfranny said:


> I have no idea where that text came from the chinese titanium


??? It's in the post's title!

I'm just trying to help you get a much larger and better response it you open a new post with the name of the bike in the title of the post.


----------



## froze

bikinfranny said:


> how do you upload pictures to this website.


So that's what this is all about, you're trying to sell something, I should have figured since your a new poster around here you had a motive.

Repost your bike for sale in two places, Hot Deals and in the manufactures heading under Pinarello. No other places will be acceptable unless you want the wrath of the forum monitors.


----------



## FTR

Ummm actually the rules as I understand them are he buys a classified ad and can post his ad once on the forum with a link back to the classified.
He cannot repost and the thread should be locked by a Mod.

That is unless the rules are significantly different to MTBR.


----------



## froze

FTR said:


> Ummm actually the rules as I understand them are he buys a classified ad and can post his ad once on the forum with a link back to the classified.
> He cannot repost and the thread should be locked by a Mod.
> 
> That is unless the rules are significantly different to MTBR.


Your probably right, I've never sold anything on a forum like this so what you said makes sense.


----------



## lpikachu58

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> To post pictures, would recommend you keep to a maximum size of not more than 200kb and not more than 600 pixels on the longest side ...
> 
> btw ... the frame looks very good to me ... :thumbsup:
> 
> I used a curved fork for my Ti frame, for extra damping ...


Did you cancel your order to Titan Products?

Best,
Cédric


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

lpikachu58 said:


> Did you cancel your order to Titan Products?
> 
> Best,
> Cédric


No as the deposit was already paid, and build started, before 'MRhino's problems.

Head tube on my build not 0.9, but much thicker and all standard external cable stops. Nothing fancy. 

Sometimes when you can customise a frame, you might fall into the 'customise everything' bug, not knowing if the builder has the experience or know how to properly do what you requested.

There are a few other frames that Titan did, with pictures much earlier in this thread, and they all look ok to me and acceptable.


----------



## Broken wrists

*XACD chinese cheapo update*

Hi to all of you who are considering a chinese Ti Frame with couplers. 

I had difficulty (see previous posts) dealing with Porter, and the lower coupler creaked and worked loose when tightened with a 6" coupler wrench. I have since tried a 12" wrench, which enables me to get it tighter and, the squeak and loosening is fixed.
Just rode ~ 1000 miles in Utah in Aug/Sept, no issues at all with the bike (not even a flat!)

So, I would buy another frame like this knowing that if a coupler fails I could always get it fixed at Bilencky Cycle or some other builder who has experience with couplers. 

Jim


----------



## ronq

Hi all
i'm new to cycling
and i'm planing to get a Ti bike
i'm wondering how much does the Ti road bike frame cost?


----------



## ronq

Hi all
i'm new to cycling 
wanted to get a new Ti road bike
just wondering how much is the frame costing you guys
and is it weird if i buy a Ti frame and fix up with a Shimano 105 groupset?


----------



## froze

ronq said:


> Hi all
> i'm new to cycling
> wanted to get a new Ti road bike
> just wondering how much is the frame costing you guys
> and is it weird if i buy a Ti frame and fix up with a Shimano 105 groupset?


If you want a Motobecane TI road frame you can get a Ti frame with the carbon fiber fork and headset from Bikes Direct for $999. The 105 group would work great, or look into the Campy Athena. The Athena weighs a bit less, works a bit smoother, and it is repairable, but I think the 105 is a bit cheaper overall. The Athena cost about $728 and the 105 about $550, I think for the less then $150 difference is worth spending to get Athena, but you may have outside motivations for using the 105 that I don't know about.


----------



## aclinjury

froze said:


> If you want a Motobecane TI road frame you can get a Ti frame with the carbon fiber fork and headset from Bikes Direct for $999. The 105 group would work great, or look into the Campy Athena. The Athena weighs a bit less, works a bit smoother, and it is repairable, but I think the 105 is a bit cheaper overall. The Athena cost about $728 and the 105 about $550, I think for the less then $150 difference is worth spending to get Athena, but you may have outside motivations for using the 105 that I don't know about.


I'm curious to know what exactly is repairable in the Athena? Are we talking about the shifters? If so, does repairable means we can take it completely apart and be able to buy replaceable parts? or does repairable means replacing the whole core? I ask this because I saw another poster saying repairable means you have to buy a new core and it's not cheap.


----------



## froze

aclinjury said:


> I'm curious to know what exactly is repairable in the Athena? Are we talking about the shifters? If so, does repairable means we can take it completely apart and be able to buy replaceable parts? or does repairable means replacing the whole core? I ask this because I saw another poster saying repairable means you have to buy a new core and it's not cheap.


Campy has more small parts that can be used to repair major parts then Shimano or SRAM; Shimano and Sram are basically throw away components...not saying that Shimano has no small parts, but they have fewer then Campy and because of that a lot of the times a major Shimano component needs to be replaced as a whole.

See Campy spare parts cats: The official Campagnolo web site - Bicycle Parts and Components Cycling - Technical documentation


----------



## froze

Mghffany529 said:


> Look at Habanero cycles too. They are chinese made and offer a decent warranty too.


For the cost of a Habanero you can get an American made Lynskey. So why waste your money spending that much money on a Chinese made bike when you can go American made?

In case your wondering the Motobecane TI frame is made in Taiwan, a country that embraces the western way of quality control, China could care less about quality control thus their frames are a hit and miss. 

The Motobecane has a 100 year warranty...as if any warranty whether lifetime or 100 years would actually ever be handled, for one the original owner will never be around that long riding it, and for two the company won't be around that long to honor it!! Not to mention I have a Trek 660 lugged steel frame with a lifetime warranty, if that frame were to fail how would Trek honor a warranty of a frame they no longer make? The 660 was the second best frame they made that year, will Trek replace it with the second best frame they make now? Don't make me laugh. Trek would tell me I'm screwed and have a nice life.


----------



## maxxevv

froze said:


> Campy has more small parts that can be used to repair major parts then Shimano or SRAM; Shimano and Sram are basically throw away components...not saying that Shimano has no small parts, but they have fewer then Campy and because of that a lot of the times a major Shimano component needs to be replaced as a whole.
> 
> See Campy spare parts cats: The official Campagnolo web site - Bicycle Parts and Components Cycling - Technical documentation


That's a myth with regards to Campag and Shimano. 

With very general maintenance, you will see Campag shifters coming back with worn out parts after 2~3 years. But it almost never happens with Shimano items that have been maintained. 

Granted their general failure rates are very similar under warranty, but those that do fail usually happen within the warranty period for both brands. 

To be fair, Shimano components/shifter do wear out. But that's usually after pretty long term use or due to lack of cleaning/maintenance. I've seen a 7700 shifter set that has done like 95,000km since '99 and still works perfect! I've seen a 105 one that's worn out after about 6~7 years of daily use (with almost no maintenance), maybe 60-70,000 km. 

Also, do note that Campag spares though available for small parts isn't exactly priced like buying a replacement screw. They are costly with respect to the original costs of the shifters. And they are not readily available everywhere either. They are usually indent items that have a fair amount of wait time. ( depending on your luck of how long that may be.. can be 10 days, can be 40... as far as I've seen.) 

Hope this provides a more complete picture of things ..


----------



## froze

maxxevv said:


> With very general maintenance, you will see Campag shifters coming back with worn out parts after 2~3 years. But it almost never happens with Shimano items that have been maintained.
> 
> Also, do note that Campag spares though available for small parts isn't exactly priced like buying a replacement screw. They are costly with respect to the original costs of the shifters. And they are not readily available everywhere either. They are usually indent items that have a fair amount of wait time. ( depending on your luck of how long that may be.. can be 10 days, can be 40... as far as I've seen.)
> 
> Hope this provides a more complete picture of things ..


I'm calling this BS. 

I know too many people who have both Shitmano and Campy and Campy in general outlasts Shitmano. And small parts from Campy are not expensive, not even close to whole new complete part you would have to pay to get your Shitmano fixed. Sure if you were to build an entire brifter out of parts that would be more expensive then buying a new brifter, but who would do that? Kind of like building your car from scratch using the local parts store!!

Especially when it comes to the brifters, Campagnolo lasts longer and can be repaired where as Shamano goes in the dustbin when it goes wrong. http://www.norvil.net/pedal/service/shimanosti/index.php
http://bicycledesign.net/2010/12/disposable-brifters/
http://www.rodcycle.com/articles/ergo_vs_sti.html

And in case you missed the link I gave earlier about Campy's list of spare parts, here it is again except this one is for the Veloce Brifter: http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/SPARES2013-PART_B.pdf

And this is the parts listed for the Shitmano brifter: http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t.../ST/EV-ST-7971-2971_v1_m56577569830677047.pdf Hmmm, they appear to be lack a few parts!!


----------



## threefire

*Another option*

First of all, I hope this doesn't violate forum rules and if it does, can someone please have it deleted. 

We are offering some very high quality titanium frames from below $1K. Life time warranty. Made in a facility in China that has built frames for over a dozen western brands for over two decades. 

Our company is founded by me and a few other avid cyclists in China who are trying to build nice bikes for ourselves before selling them to the public, which we consider a nice perk. We are dedicated to making bikes the RIGHT way and not the CHEAP way. I assure you nobody at XACD rides. We do. This is all because we love bikes.

Most of us have spent extended periods in various parts of the world and truly appreciate the meaning of quality and customer service. I hope this will be a refreshing change from the typical Chinese manufacturer you are used to dealing with. I have spent way more money on my personal bikes than what we are making out of this little venture, starting from the original steel-forked C40 to several Litespeeds, a Serrota, several editions of the Madone (w/ or w/o the shark fin seat tube), plus a Boonen Ed. VXRS and the original CF1 thrown in. 

We are making 3 road models ranging from 800-1900, a CX model at under 1K, a 29er and a 27.5er in similar price range. 

Here are some pics of my personal bike for your viewing pleasure. I hope we will provide some good alternatives for your needs. Thank you.


----------



## maxxevv

froze said:


> I'm calling this BS.
> 
> I know too many people who have both Shitmano and Campy and Campy in general outlasts Shitmano. And small parts from Campy are not expensive, not even close to whole new complete part you would have to pay to get your Shitmano fixed. Sure if you were to build an entire brifter out of parts that would be more expensive then buying a new brifter, but who would do that? Kind of like building your car from scratch using the local parts store!!
> 
> Especially when it comes to the brifters, Campagnolo lasts longer and can be repaired where as Shamano goes in the dustbin when it goes wrong. http://www.norvil.net/pedal/service/shimanosti/index.php
> http://bicycledesign.net/2010/12/disposable-brifters/
> http://www.rodcycle.com/articles/ergo_vs_sti.html
> 
> And in case you missed the link I gave earlier about Campy's list of spare parts, here it is again except this one is for the Veloce Brifter: http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/SPARES2013-PART_B.pdf
> 
> And this is the parts listed for the Shitmano brifter: http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t.../ST/EV-ST-7971-2971_v1_m56577569830677047.pdf Hmmm, they appear to be lack a few parts!!



Really ? Then why are you quoting me selectively there ? 

In any case, have you actually tried replacing your Campag innards when something does break ? Those articles you quote by the way are a little outdated. Dig up some that actually talk about the current generation of 11-speed Campag shifters instead. 

The most common things that break on the UltraShift 11 speeds are the shifter levers/buttons. Next comes the ratchet rings. Then comes the tension springs. 

Try buying the shift levers/buttons without anything else. And I mean the UltraShift 11-speed versions. See what you can get on short notice and how much they would cost relative to the cost of the individual left or right levers alone. 

Don't call BS on something if it doesn't suit what you think as sacrosanct. Its just bike parts, not a religion. Even if it is religion, there is no need to start calling BS on things because it does not agree with your point of view. 

The world would be a much happier place if everyone just stuck riding bikes and reading their religious texts rather than yelling at others for things they do not agree upon.


----------



## lawrence

*Rebuildiing Campy shifters*

My LBS charges $75 to rebuild Campy shifters, not the 11 spd I guess.


----------



## aclinjury

Threefire,

I like! 
Do you have a webpage?


----------



## aclinjury

froze said:


> I'm calling this BS.
> 
> I know too many people who have both Shitmano and Campy and Campy in general outlasts Shitmano. And small parts from Campy are not expensive, not even close to whole new complete part you would have to pay to get your Shitmano fixed. Sure if you were to build an entire brifter out of parts that would be more expensive then buying a new brifter, but who would do that? Kind of like building your car from scratch using the local parts store!!
> 
> Especially when it comes to the brifters, Campagnolo lasts longer and can be repaired where as Shamano goes in the dustbin when it goes wrong. Servicing Shimano STI Levers
> Disposable brifters – Bicycle Design
> Ergo shifters vs. STI shifters
> 
> And in case you missed the link I gave earlier about Campy's list of spare parts, here it is again except this one is for the Veloce Brifter: http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/SPARES2013-PART_B.pdf
> 
> And this is the parts listed for the Shitmano brifter: http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t.../ST/EV-ST-7971-2971_v1_m56577569830677047.pdf Hmmm, they appear to be lack a few parts!!


I have 1 set of circa 1993 Dura Ace 7400 shifters that still work flawlessly to this day.
I have 2 sets of 7-yr old DA 7800 shifters that show no sign of giving up any time soon
I have 1 set of 7900 shifters just over a year old and working like from day 1
Soon I'm about to build another bike with the DA 9000 group.

Now I don't ride in the rain or muddy condition at all. It's mainly dry weather riding. I have not lubed any of the shifters, but I do make sure to clean them before they gunk can build inside of them.

As of right now, if my 7400 or 7800 shifters were to cease operating, then chances are I would go on Ebay to buy a good used pair of 7800 shifters for replacement. And this is really one beauty of buying Shimano: you can easily replace them via Ebay. It's probably not as cheap as buying a part, but you don't have to mess around fixing them, waiting for the parts to come in. You can have your good used shifters in a week ready to be mounted. I'm a busy person and time is important to me, and I rather no spend a weekend learning how to fix/disassemble a pair of shifters if I can just buy a good used pair on Ebay and be over with it.

And I've read that with Campy 11-spd, repairing means replacing the core unit, which is not cheap. I don't use Campy so I'm in no position to comment on the practicality of repairing or parts availability. But I know for sure at any given time, you can pretty much get a good used Shimano parts on Ebay.


----------



## froze

maxxevv said:


> Don't call BS on something if it doesn't suit what you think as sacrosanct. Its just bike parts, not a religion. Even if it is religion, there is no need to start calling BS on things because it does not agree with your point of view.
> .


This is BS, cycling is indeed a religion! I hope you got the tongue in cheek.

Besides not all the articles were old, in fact the parts lists from Campy is current and then going back through the years. 

But after researching you were right about the Ultra 11 so I take back calling it BS and apologize to you for doing so. 

But the majority of Campy's stuff is more repairable then the majority of Shitmano. Now I know to stay away from the Ultra 11. I personally cannot understand, nor wish to buy a product for cycling that can't be repaired, unfortunately it may be getting impossible to expect that especially in light of new Campy crap. But that's one of the reasons why on my 07 Mercian I had it built with Athena because it could be fixed with small parts instead of the more popular Shamano.


----------



## froze

Stef3anie said:


> Has anybody have any experiance buying chinese made ti frames?


There was a person on this forum who bought one of the more famous ones and it came with head tube oblong and thus the headset wouldn't work, the company in China told him that he damaged the head tube because it left their factory perfect...as far as I ever heard he got screwed; I think he dwelt with XACD but don't quote me on that. Hopefully he's reading this and will reply.

But regardless, you're still spending roughly $1,300 for the frame and no fork, again why? When you can get a Taiwan made Motobecane TI frame/fork and headset for $999. Like I mentioned before Taiwan embraces the western way of doing business and quality control, China does not; also if you have a problem with the Motobecane frame you deal directly with Bikes Direct here in the USA not someone in China that doesn't have to follow US law. At least with the Habanero you would be dealing with a USA importer so the USA laws do apply, but like I mentioned before for the cost of a Habanero you can get a Lynskey made in the USA.

Here is one guys running dialog on problems he had with XACD: XACD - obnoxious? - Mtbr Forums

Please note, not everyone has bad luck dealing directly with a Chinese manufacture, but when, or if you have a problem you could be screwed. Personally, it's not a risk I'm willing to take when it comes to my money, but someone else may be ok with that.


----------



## Broken wrists

I would second the vote for the Motobecane. They have a road (short chainstay), cross, and road (regular chainstays, fender and rack mounts) designs and unless you are unusually heavy or strong, one of these should be great. 
I personally got a good frame from XACD but from what I read here, I was lucky. 

Jimbo


----------



## froze

Broken wrists said:


> I would second the vote for the Motobecane. They have a road (short chainstay), cross, and road (regular chainstays, fender and rack mounts) designs and unless you are unusually heavy or strong, one of these should be great.
> I personally got a good frame from XACD but from what I read here, I was lucky.
> 
> Jimbo


Even if you're unusually heavy, or strong, Motobecane has a couple of titanium cross bikes that could handle anyone - and do it on or off road. They also have a couple Motobecane Century titanium bike models that is similar to their road bikes except has a geometry for more of an upright riding position instead of a compact geometry like the road series of titanium's, the Century is a triple instead of a double like the Cross and the Road, also slightly wider 32 tires instead of 23's like the road series and the frame can except up to a 40, plus the Century comes with eyelets in the rear for panniers like the Cross models have.

The Cross bikes are the heaviest of the 3 followed by the Century models, the Road ones are the lightest, although the heaviest Road model is about the same weight as the lightest Century.

I mentioned all that crap because someone may be looking for a bike for a specific reason.


----------



## flatsix911

Froze, great information on the various MB Ti models. :thumbsup:
Can you list the approximate weights of the Cross, Century & Road?


----------



## froze

flatsix911 said:


> Froze, great information on the various MB Ti models. :thumbsup:
> Can you list the approximate weights of the Cross, Century & Road?


Depending on size of course, the lowest costing Cross weighs about 21 pounds while the top of the line Cross weighs about 17 pounds according to this: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/cyclocross/motobecane-fantom-cross-team-titanium-264433.html but later on another poster said his weighed 20 pounds. I'm sure if you go on the Motobecane heading here on this forum you could find post with the correct response. I think the higher weight is probably correct?

The Century Pro Ti weighs 19.5; while the top of the line Century Team Ti weighs 19.2; don't forget these are both triples. Again maybe someone owns one of these and can give us a more accurate weight.

The road bikes range from their heaviest the Le Champion TI Heat starting at 17.2 for the smallest frame; to their lightest the Le Champion TI Inferno starting at 15.9 for the smallest frame size. They have 5 TI road bikes which means the other (middle) models vary in weight between those two. Go on Bikes Direct site and they list the weights and prices for all their Road TI models, but the Century and the Cross for some reason they don't.

This is a bad time of the year to be purchasing from Bikes Direct because a lot of bikes and or specific sizes are not in stock at this time, they should be coming in in about another 2 months.


----------



## JasonB176

froze said:


> Depending on size of course, the lowest costing Cross weighs about 21 pounds while the top of the line Cross weighs about 17 pounds according to this: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/cyclocross/motobecane-fantom-cross-team-titanium-264433.html but later on another poster said his weighed 20 pounds. I'm sure if you go on the Motobecane heading here on this forum you could find post with the correct response. I think the higher weight is probably correct?
> 
> The Century Pro Ti weighs 19.5; while the top of the line Century Team Ti weighs 19.2; don't forget these are both triples. Again maybe someone owns one of these and can give us a more accurate weight.
> 
> The road bikes range from their heaviest the Le Champion TI Heat starting at 17.2 for the smallest frame; to their lightest the Le Champion TI Inferno starting at 15.9 for the smallest frame size. They have 5 TI road bikes which means the other (middle) models vary in weight between those two. Go on Bikes Direct site and they list the weights and prices for all their Road TI models, but the Century and the Cross for some reason they don't.
> 
> This is a bad time of the year to be purchasing from Bikes Direct because a lot of bikes and or specific sizes are not in stock at this time, they should be coming in in about another 2 months.


I didn't realize the Le Champion TI Inferno is lighter than the more expensive Team Ti.


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I didn't realize the Le Champion TI Inferno is lighter than the more expensive Team Ti.


The Red components are lighter then Dura Ace, not sure if that's a good thing in regards to reliability though, then again Dura Ace is not as reliable as Ultegra due to using lighter parts though some would argue that point. There isn't enough long term reliability data out for the Red group yet to make a solid point that it's better or worse then Dura Ace over the long haul. 

I personally don't except the argument that if so and so has such and such components and they went 12,000 miles on it thus it's good crap. Why? Because I have bikes with the same components for more then 12,000 miles on them in fact one of them has over 160,000 miles!! An average rider can exceed 12,000 miles in 3 to 4 years, 4 years to own a bike is nothing; I average roughly 5,000 miles a year and I keep my bikes forever, so for someone to say 12,000 miles is great is a joke as far as I'm concerned; maybe if someone has 30 bikes and only rides each bike a 1,000 miles a year then maybe that's ok. 

I don't see any reason why any derailleur can't last a long time, there's not that much to them, the biggest reliability issues we have today are the briftors and chains. Go and price a set of Dura Ace or Red, or Record briftors and you'll be in for a rude awakening (over $500). Which is why I'm a bit hesitant to pull the trigger for anything more then Ultegra; but even a set of Ultegra briftors aren't cheap, on sale maybe $260 for the pair.

The largest repair cost your going to have on the new era of bikes are the briftors and bottom brackets/cranks, chains will nickle and dime you, but that other stuff can add up to a huge bill.


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## Joema

I thought I'd chime in on this dead thread. I dealt with Alisa Huo @ XACD and she was a great help throughout the entire process. Pretty painless process and I really felt as if she cared. I had my frame made with removable dr hanger and received it cracked and bent. I let her know and eventually got a replacement less than a week later, though I'm still working with the USPS to get this claimed under insurance. 

This frame is beautiful and I'm happy about the welding. As soon as I finish putting it together I will post pics. The frame I got can be found at Xi'an Tianwei Metalwork Co., Ltd. - Titanium bicycle frame,Titanium bicycle fork
I got the road frame with the curved top tube. The pic doesn't do it justice. 
If you're thinking about going this route for a Ti frame, do your homework with:
1. How to do business with Asian companies
2. confirm you're dealing with an OEM and research them. 
3. contact them on alibaba, which will proceed to skype and only an occassional email. If you're not comfy with this method of communication, don't bother.

From the time I submitted my downpayment, it was about 5-7 weeks to receive my frame but it was my hemming and hawing that caused much of the long lead time. I had the headtube engraved (for an additional fee of course).
My frame has internal cable routing, hourglass shaped headtube with integrated headset, breezerstyle dropouts, replaceable hanger, and I had the seatstay tube thickness increased, engraved "logo" on headtube. Happy with pricing, quality so far.



fab4 said:


> Has anybody have any experiance buying chinese made ti frames? If you do, what's the ride quality, finish quality and durability?


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## froze

There was someone on this forum about 4 or 5 years ago bought a XACD frame with a out of round head tube that would not allow any headset to fit, so he contacted XACD and was told to send the frame back, which he did, some time later he's contacted saying he damaged the head tube and thus no warranty, when asked them to return the frame they refused. Price of doing business with a Chinese company directly, luckily your's turned out ok. but it was minor.


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## Notvintage

ColoRoadie said:


> If a weld cracks, a decent shop local can fix it for less than the cost of shipping . . .


A "decent shop" can weld Titanium Alloy? LOl Good luck with that.


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## froze

Notvintage said:


> A "decent shop" can weld Titanium Alloy? LOl Good luck with that.


 It would be expensive to do anyways since you have to shield the metal from inert gas as it cools otherwise it will become brittle and break sooner. You could buy a Motobecane TI frame and CF fork for around $1,000.


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## BCSaltchucker

heck I bought a new Lynskey frame for $1000 (ok fork extra). they put them on sale fairly often for around that or a but more. In my case it was a Pro26 with the helical tubing too - RRP was like $2800 or thereabouts which they probably never actually charge, LOL. full warranty on known shop made in usa frame.


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## froze

BCSaltchucker said:


> heck I bought a new Lynskey frame for $1000 (ok fork extra). they put them on sale fairly often for around that or a but more. In my case it was a Pro26 with the helical tubing too - RRP was like $2800 or thereabouts which they probably never actually charge, LOL. full warranty on known shop made in usa frame.


Heck yeah, if you can get a Lynskey for $1,000 that's the way to go.


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## Joema

congrats on finding a Lynskey at a good price. I nearly bought a Lynskey at the 1K range but wanted something I'd probably never see anyone else riding, with or without the warranty, Made in the USA or not. I understand the potential risks, but to be quite honest, I couldn't afford nearly everything out there.


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