# Meaning of a Lifetime Warranty



## Jammerjam

I have a 1998 Litespeed Owl Hollow. It was produced only for a few years. I have love riding this bike and have maintained it well. About Five years after I bought it (new) a crack developed between the top and down tube. Litespeed was very courteous and repaired the bike without hesitation or question.
It developed small hairline cracks at the junction of shock mount weld onto the down tube on both sides of each mount. 
This time, American Bicycle Group (who owns Litespeed and Merlin) demanded a copy of the original reciept and pictures before accepting the frame for repair. Luckily, I found the original receipt and send a copy along with pictures.
The "warranty committee" decided that the cracks are not covered under the lifetime warranty because the bike is "too old"
My question is, when does a bike become "too old" to be covered by a "lifetime warranty"?
Am I unreasonable in expecting them to repair the frame or at lease offer me a replacement frame?
They did offer a "crash replacement" frame but I would have to cut the bottom bracket of my bike and send it to them!! I don't want to destroy this bike.
Am I way off?


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## jtompilot

I personally think the lifetime is up. Suppose the frame was 100 years old? Nothing lasts forever. I would take the discounted frame and call it a good day.


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## RK250

I agree with Mr. Jammer. As an owner of a Merlin Echo, lifetime waranteed, circa 1999, perfectly maintained, has that used up it's lifetime? Says who? If lifetime is held to the original owner, you've done what you're supposed to and provided documentation as such. It's their warantee policy, not yours. Are you being unreasonable? Absolutely not. Good luck and please report back.


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## rkj__

I don't think that your warranty claim should be denied based on time. If a company only wants to provide warranty support for 10 years, they should only offer a 10 year warranty. If they claim a lifetime warranty, they should provide a lifetime warranty.


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## flatsix911

Jammerjam said:


> The "warranty committee" decided that the cracks are not covered under the lifetime warranty because the bike is "too old"
> My question is, when does a bike become "too old" to be covered by a "lifetime warranty"?
> Am I way off?


You are right on ... they are feeding you BS. 
Contact Lightspeed (ABS) and request a formal appeal - also provide a link to this thread.


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## Elpimpo

What is this world coming to?
I agree with most that THEY said lifetime (not you) and should honor as such.
I especially agree with flatsix911 in that you should call a bluff.
Also, you didn't say which "replacement" frame they were offering.
I also see that you're up to enough posts to post up pictures.......

post up pictures......


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## Jammerjam

I will post some pix. Thanks y'll. I thought I was perhaps off base.


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## cycocross

Make up a letterhead from the law offices of Dewey, Cheetham and Howe stating the legal definition of "lifetime" and "our client" is still alive . . .


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## froze

Welcome to the world of the AGB group. But any lifetime warranty has you over a barrel because they state that normal wear and tear is not covered. So how does one prove your damage is from normal wear and tear vs manufacture assembly or material defect? You probably are not going to be able to. It depends on the company and how well they want to treat their customer, and AGB has a dismal record of that.


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## King Arthur

*Lifetime warranty*

A lifetime warranty can indicate only a number of years (as defined as a "lifetime" for a
particular item). Thus the lifetime of a product is not an "unlimited" time period, but a defined period. Unfortunately, welcome to the wonderful world of business! Where rules are as fluid as water, and a contract is not as good as the paper it is written on. 

Many years ago, a person's word was their bond, and a handshake was enough to ensure a deal was binding. Folks also did not make outlandish claims against companies, like suing a bungie cord manufacturer when it snaps (because it was used to jump off a bridge, incidently not what it was intended to be used.).


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## davidka

Blaming tube failure on normal wear and tear is simply unacceptable. Keep on them, make them honor the rules of the warranty policy they wrote. Lifetime means your lifetime.


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## Chainstay

*Warranty honoured on 99 Merlin*

Two years ago, I had a chainstay crack right near the drop-out. They originally denied the warranty claim stating that there was no lifetime warranty on 1999 Merlins. I had the original lifetime warranty card and the bill of sale. Working through the Merlin dealer, here in Toronto, we sent a scan of the documents and presto the repair was covered under warranty


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## CheapTrek

From their website (Bolding by me):

"Litespeed Limited Warranty:
Litespeed Bicycle's frames are *warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.* Litespeed branded forks, paint and decals are warranted for 1 year against defects in material and workmanship. Alignment and water bottle bosses are warranted for 30 days from date of purchase. This warranty is redeemable only by the original owner when purchased and maintained through an authorized Litespeed dealer.

It seems like you should be covered as long as the conclusion is manufacturer/material defect.

As someone who's job often entails making the final decision on large warranty claims I do have one recommendation to make. Save the angry, threatening stuff for the end if you don't get satisfaction by being polite and reasonable.

When a customer says to me something along the lines of "I have always been very happy with your product and recommend your company to everyone", it goes a long way in helping me make my decision in questionable cases. In this instance, if they wanted to, they could probably pursue the "damage from conditions outside of reasonable use" angle and without quite a bit of expense on your part, it would be hard to prove.

Have you tried going to the shop you bought it from and asking them to assess the damage and advocate for you directly? I do that for my customers where they have purchased products from me that are only covered by the OEM warranty. Being a high volume client, I can call in favors and have substantially more leverage than my average customer would on their own. Your shop should be willing to do this for you. 

Best of luck and keep us posted.

*EDIT: I just read a bit further by clicking down on their warranty page.*

"Useful Product Life Cycle

Every Litespeed frameset has a useful life cycle. This useful life cycle is not the same as the warranty period.

This warranty is not meant to suggest or imply that the frame cannot be broken or will last forever. Bicycles and/or frames will not last forever. The length of the useful life cycle will vary depending on the type of frame, riding conditions and care the bicycle receives."

THIS IS A LOAD of CARP


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## Jammerjam

CheapTrek, thanks for the advice. I was very nice and cordial and asked them to please reconsider several times. I told them I own three other Litespeeds and have had a very pleasant experience with both my bikes and the company. But they stuck to their "the bike is too old" line. I also took the frame to several bike shops including one that is a Litespeed dealer, and they all told me they thought this should be covered under the warranty. The dealer even called his salesperson and called me to tell me he couldn't get anywhere either. I am frankly puzzled by this attitude. 

I am posting a picture of the cracks.


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## CheapTrek

I will be interested to see them. Hopefully some of the folks on here who understand the nuances of Ti metallurgy and fabrication can help you substantiate your claim. 

I have been bouncing back and forth between buying a Moots or a Litespeed for a while now and reading what you are going through has pretty much sealed the deal when I do decide to pull the trigger.

In the name of fairness, I went to Moots warranty and it reads almost the same as Litespeed's. I guess it all boils down to execution on warranty claims and I think I will take my chances with Moots rather than deal with a company that treats a customer like yourself so callously.

Kind of makes me wish they would all just drop the "Lifetime" claim and throw a defined time frame on it.The idea of some vague warranty that is left up to the subjective analysis of people who have a vested interest in denying a claim is disquieting at best.


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## Jammerjam

*Pictures of the cracks*

Here are the pictures I promised:


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## Jammerjam

As an aside, ABG no longer owns Merlin. They sold that off.


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## tacoracer

BBB rating


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## Jammerjam

Thanks tacoracer, I just filed a complaint with the kentucky BBB.


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## froze

I can't tell if what I'm seeing is a camera error or not. It appears that the tube side with the bracket seems just a tad bent in ward, like something pushed the bracket hard enough to bend it on the left side which in turn lifted the right side of the bracket just enough to make the weld failed and cracked the frame tube.


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## Jammerjam

It must be an optical illusion froze. There is no bend in the tube.


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## jtompilot

Looks some rust in several spots. Ti doesnt rust?


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## Jammerjam

Good pickup jtompilot. It's not rust but some dirt I didn't quite clean before taking the pictures.


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## CheapTrek

Jammerjam said:


> Thanks tacoracer, I just filed a complaint with the kentucky BBB.


This is probably the best way to get satisfaction. The company I work for has had three complaints in the last three years (only one of them product related) and I have to tell you, when we get one, we do everything to close it out as quickly as possible.

The idea that they warranty the product for the "lifetime" of the product is absurd. Using this logic, there would be no need for a warranty on anything as everything you can buy is essentially "good" until it is "no longer good".

Might as well just say "We warranty our product under our subjective, undisclosed terms until it breaks and we decide we don't want to repair it".

Ten BBB claims in the last three years and *NINE* of them for warranty issues? This does not speak well of the company's claims process and in a competitive marketplace like high end bikes, where your customers analyze and research EVERYTHING before pulling the trigger, you would think they would make it a point not to let things escalate to the BBB.


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## CheapTrek

jtompilot said:


> I personally think the lifetime is up. Suppose the frame was 100 years old? Nothing lasts forever. I would take the discounted frame and call it a good day.


Nothing lasts forever but the contractual obligations would be discharged as only the buyer is covered under it's terms. Let's face it, if you are lucky enough to live that long, the last thing you're worried about is having your MTB frame fixed.

The question that needs to be asked is, "Is it unreasonable to expect a bike frame to last more than 13 years?".

IMHO, so long as the bike is not abused there's no reason it shouldn't. Especially Ti. There are plenty of alum bikes from the early 90's kicking around out there and if anything is subject to metal fatigue they should be.


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## Jammerjam

They offered to sell me a Sewanee frame for 2050 plus tax and shipping. I guess it's as good an offer as I can expect. So the question is, should I accept this frame and go on with life (which I am inclined to do) or take my money and buy another bike from another company.


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## jtompilot

Jammerjam said:


> They offered to sell me a Sewanee frame for 2050 plus tax and shipping. I guess it's as good an offer as I can expect. So the question is, should I accept this frame and go on with life (which I am inclined to do) or take my money and buy another bike from another company.


Thats a lot of coin I would apply to Strong, Kish, Moots, ect. I wouldnt waste my time or money them.


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## froze

jtompilot said:


> Thats a lot of coin I would apply to Strong, Kish, Moots, ect. I wouldnt waste my time or money them.


 Great brands, but don't overlook Lynskey, that's the man that originally designed and built Litespeed bikes, he's now independent; see: Lynskey Performance | Titanium Bicycles - High Performance Hardtail 29ers, Racing Road Bikes, Customs, Components & Accessories - Lynskey Performance | Titanium Bicycles Personally if you want a high end TI MTB Lynskey would be less expensive then the others mentioned and the quality would be higher...but that's just an opinion.


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## jtompilot

froze said:


> Great brands, but don't overlook Lynskey, that's the man that originally designed and built Litespeed bikes, he's now independent; see: Lynskey Performance | Titanium Bicycles - High Performance Hardtail 29ers, Racing Road Bikes, Customs, Components & Accessories - Lynskey Performance | Titanium Bicycles Personally if you want a high end TI MTB Lynskey would be less expensive then the others mentioned and the quality would be higher...but that's just an opinion.


Maybe you get what you pay for....

The Lynskey's do look hice though


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## froze

jtompilot said:


> Maybe you get what you pay for....
> 
> The Lynskey's do look hice though


I think you pay for the name, thus I think you get more for your money with a Lynskey then you would with a Moots, Seven, Kish, Strong etc. And I believe Lynskey is just as good at titanium bikes as the others, heck he's probably been making and designing TI bikes longer then most of those since he founded Litespeed in 1986. So don't even try to sell Lynskey short, he's at least on par with the others.


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## davidka

CheapTrek said:


> The question that needs to be asked is, "Is it unreasonable to expect a bike frame to last more than 13 years?".
> 
> IMHO, so long as the bike is not abused there's no reason it shouldn't. Especially Ti. There are plenty of alum bikes from the early 90's kicking around out there and if anything is subject to metal fatigue they should be.


Not unreasonable if the manufacturer implies it should with a lifetime warranty. Lifetime warranty is a marketing effort that consumers respond to. Companies are betting that most of their products will be out of service (hanging in basements, sold to 2nd owners, etc.) before they reach the ends of their usable life. Thing is, some companies out there (Trek, Cannondale, etc.) actually honor them



Jammerjam said:


> They offered to sell me a Sewanee frame for 2050 plus tax and shipping. I guess it's as good an offer as I can expect. So the question is, should I accept this frame and go on with life (which I am inclined to do) or take my money and buy another bike from another company.


Invest in something else unless that's what you really want. There are far better designs made by companies that support their products better, many of which are much better values than $2050 for a frame. If you were betting on a "lifetime" Ti purchase, that'd be a consideration but look where you are now..

If I were shopping a Ti bike right now, Lynskey would be on the short list. I don't believe anyone else in the bike industry has the Ti knowledge and experience that they do.


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## Jammerjam

A comparable Lynskey is about $3900 frame only. That'll put the complete bike price at close to $6000. But it is food for thought.


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## froze

Trek and Cannondale honor their life time warranties? Really? Funny, because I've been on several forums over the years and they don't always warranty their bikes. Sure, if the damage occurs in the first few years you'll probably run into less problems then some companies, but I've heard of Trek not honoring theirs after around 10 years or more because they don't consider a frame failure after that many years to be a manufacture defect but rather one of fatigue. I have steel lugged Trek from 1984 with over 150,000 miles on it, do you really think that if a lug came loose they would honor it? NO, they would say it fatigued and I should be happy the bike lasted that long. And "if" they did honor it they couldn't fix it or replace it with another lugged steel frame because I doubt if anyone at Trek even knows what a lugged steel frame is any more!!! So what would they replace it with? Some cheap ass aluminum frame I would have no interest in? Or maybe give me $250 credit toward the cost of another frame at inflated retail prices? That's what they did in some of the cases I heard; No thanks. So even if they warranty the bike 50 years down the road and the bike you have the technology has been extinct for 25 years what are you going to get? And of course the lifetime warranty will end with the demise of the company.

I agree with the Lynskey sentiments, I think cost, quality, and experience of the Lynskey team is at least equal to if not better then Moots, Seven, Airborne and other custom TI builders at lower cost then those. BUT, I also think that the Motobecane TI line of bikes is at least equal to any other factory non-custom TI manufacture out there at a lower cost. And since I have no issues with getting a production bike to fit I would get the Motobecane and save at least $2,000 dollars from a Lynskey. And Motobecane has a 100 year warranty...whoppee!


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## froze

Jammerjam said:


> A comparable Lynskey is about $3900 frame only. That'll put the complete bike price at close to $6000. But it is food for thought.


They have complete TI touring bikes for $3900, while not as custom, damn good bikes; see: Lynskey Backroad Titanium Bicycle Touring Frame | Road Bike Touring, Fully Loaded, S&S Couplers - Lynskey Performance | Titanium Bicycles And their least expensive Road frame is the Cooper CX (they have a fixie frame a tad cheaper) at a cost of $1,795, slap some 105 components on it and you're below $6000 at $2767; see: Cooper Complete Titanium Sport Series Road Bicycle Frame with Shimano 105 - Lynskey Performance | Titanium Bicycles. More food for thought.


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## Jammerjam

I was looking at his full suspension MB.


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## davidka

froze said:


> Trek and Cannondale honor their life time warranties? Really? Funny, because I've been on several forums over the years and they don't always warranty their bikes. Sure, if the damage occurs in the first few years you'll probably run into less problems then some companies, but I've heard of Trek not honoring theirs after around 10 years or more because they don't consider a frame failure after that many years to be a manufacture defect but rather one of fatigue. I have steel lugged Trek from 1984 with over 150,000 miles on it, do you really think that if a lug came loose they would honor it? NO, they would say it fatigued and I should be happy the bike lasted that long. And "if" they did honor it they couldn't fix it or replace it with another lugged steel frame because I doubt if anyone at Trek even knows what a lugged steel frame is any more!!! So what would they replace it with? Some cheap ass aluminum frame I would have no interest in? Or maybe give me $250 credit toward the cost of another frame at inflated retail prices? That's what they did in some of the cases I heard; No thanks. So even if they warranty the bike 50 years down the road and the bike you have the technology has been extinct for 25 years what are you going to get? And of course the lifetime warranty will end with the demise of the company.
> 
> I agree with the Lynskey sentiments, I think cost, quality, and experience of the Lynskey team is at least equal to if not better then Moots, Seven, Airborne and other custom TI builders at lower cost then those. BUT, I also think that the Motobecane TI line of bikes is at least equal to any other factory non-custom TI manufacture out there at a lower cost. And since I have no issues with getting a production bike to fit I would get the Motobecane and save at least $2,000 dollars from a Lynskey. And Motobecane has a 100 year warranty...whoppee!


 Why do you have any faith in a "100 year" warranty from a company with no background or traceable history? Airborne offered lifetime warranty on their Ti road frames. 5 years later they have no road offerings, Ti or otherwise. 

To expect Trek or Cannondale to warehouse period specific replacement frames is hardly realistic but if your steel frame failed in a legitimate warranty circumstance, I'd bet my carbon bike that they'd make it right.


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## froze

davidka said:


> Why do you have any faith in a "100 year" warranty from a company with no background or traceable history? Airborne offered lifetime warranty on their Ti road frames. 5 years later they have no road offerings, Ti or otherwise.
> 
> To expect Trek or Cannondale to warehouse period specific replacement frames is hardly realistic but if your steel frame failed in a legitimate warranty circumstance, I'd bet my carbon bike that they'd make it right.


Did you misread my post? I never even aluded to having faith in a warranty. By saying that though, I'm not saying I think warranties are worthless either, just saying I have a problem with a lifetime warranty, or a 100 year warranty due to wording of such warranties and interpretation of said warranties. I already know Trek won't make an old bike warranty right because a friend of mine had their first carbon frame with the external aluminum lugs, and it failed due to the glue or bonding failing between the lugs and the carbon about 20 years later. Trek offered him $250 off the price of another frame at wholesale price saying that the frame failed due to fatigue and it wasn't covered for that, so the $250 off was a goodwill offer! From that experience I would bet that Trek would do the same thing with my steel bike. Even "IF" they tried to make it right...right by who's standard, mine or theirs? Mine would be to have the bike repaired or replaced with another steel lugged frame, neither of which Trek is prepared to do, so it would be by their standards. And my Trek 660 was the second best Trek they offered, are they going to give me their 2nd best current frame? Now that's funny!! So I don't put much stock in a long warranty. Besides, if the bike is built goofy from the factory it will usually fail in the first year or two of ownership.

I've read quite a few posts on forums where an owner had a bike that was warrantied for life and they had a B of time getting it taken care of, the longer the period of time elapsed from purchase to warranty claim the tougher it was to get the claim handled due to the fatgue intrepretation. Some companies are a lot worse then others such as the AGB group who attempts to void all warranty claims regardless of time elapsed. I know Vitus use to have a great warranty because another friend of mine broke 2 of their lugged aluminum jobs back in the 80's and they replaced it without any questions, but my friend became very leery of the bike so the 3rd replacement he got he never rode, it still hangs in his garage with 0 miles on the frame (the Campy components have about 10,000 miles).


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## Jammerjam

By way of conclusion, I want to thank everyone of you for your helpful comments. I have learned a few things in this process and perhaps have become more jaded. But my love of cycling and the many friendships it has spawned will never be overshadowed by this minor blip.


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## mpre53

CheapTrek said:


> From their website (Bolding by me):
> 
> "Litespeed Limited Warranty:
> Litespeed Bicycle's frames are *warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.* Litespeed branded forks, paint and decals are warranted for 1 year against defects in material and workmanship. Alignment and water bottle bosses are warranted for 30 days from date of purchase. This warranty is redeemable only by the original owner when purchased *and maintained through an authorized Litespeed dealer.*


My understanding of the Magnuson/Moss Act leads me to believe that this second provision in bold violates it. Upon passage of that Act back in the mid-70s, it became illegal for any manufacturer to require that service be done at a dealer. This is why you can now have your car serviced anywhere, or even by yourself, without losing warranty coverage.

There's a narrow exception if the service required to be done is so specialized that only a manufacturer trained tech can do it. Hello? It's an effing bike. :lol:


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## froze

mpre53 said:


> My understanding of the Magnuson/Moss Act leads me to believe that this second provision in bold violates it. Upon passage of that Act back in the mid-70s, it became illegal for any manufacturer to require that service be done at a dealer. This is why you can now have your car serviced anywhere, or even by yourself, without losing warranty coverage.
> 
> There's a narrow exception if the service required to be done is so specialized that only a manufacturer trained tech can do it. Hello? It's an effing bike. :lol:



With cars the warranty is based on having the car maintained at specific mileage or time intrevals, if you fail to keep those requirements the warranty is voided. With a bike I've never seen a schedule of maintenance program, so who determines if the bike was maintained properly? Then you have to have proof, usually with a receipt, that such maintenance was done. With a car you can change the oil yourself and just keep the receipts for the oil and filter purchase, but on a bike, unless it needs parts, there is no receipt generated by a visual inspection if you do it yourself, thus you would have to take into the LBS to generate a receipt. So that last bolded section sounds a bit devious, and if AGB hasn't straightened out their act when it comes to warranty issues I can bet you that last bolded statement is an escape clause.


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## Nicole Hamilton

rkj__ said:


> I don't think that your warranty claim should be denied based on time. If a company only wants to provide warranty support for 10 years, they should only offer a 10 year warranty. If they claim a lifetime warranty, they should provide a lifetime warranty.


I agree. You may be able to sue in small claims court to enforce your warranty.


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## froze

Good luck with the small claims court. I guess the thing one could hope for is that you file the claim in small claims and hope the company rep doesn't show up. The warranty will state fatigue not covered, if you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that the damage was due to material and or workmanship failure then you'll win, otherwise forget about it.

There was one guy who tried for months to get AGB group to fix his Merlin Cielo even after getting an attorney involved, and AGB still refused, so he told them he was going to get on every single bicycle forum there was, and post pictures and copies of the letters from himself and AGB, which the guy did; AGB surrendered about 2 months into the forums campaign. BUT, in that surrender agreement AGB told the Merling owner that AGB's warranty ended with that repair any and all future warranty issues would be voided!! So roughly 14 months after the whole ordeal began he got his bike back minus a warranty.


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## Nicole Hamilton

froze said:


> Good luck with the small claims court. ... if you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that the damage was due to material and or workmanship failure then you'll win, otherwise forget about it.


That's not how it works and I'm wondering if you've ever been to small claims or been involved in much litigation. The hurdle in civil litigation is "preponderance of the evidence", not "beyond a reasonable doubt" and certainly not beyond a "shadow of a doubt." You only have to be just the tiniest bit more believable than the other side to win.

Small claims court is quite informal. You do not need an attorney. You pay a small fee, then go in and present your case to the judge.

Having been through some small claims stuff before (involving some electronics I'd bought) what you can expect is that initially, the company will bluster and complain you have no case, that you're wasting everyone's time, blah, blah, blah. Then they'll probably make some really insulting offer, pennies on the dollar. The day of your hearing, they'll probably suggest not going to court because they'd like to meet to settle the matter. Don't do it. It's a trick. If you miss your court date, you lose by default. Go to court.

What will happen is the judge will listen to both sides and want to see the relevant docs, e.g., your sales receipt, the warranty and the correspondence. A few days later, you'll get a decision. The whole thing is a lot more like Judge Judy than Law & Order.

In small claims, judges don't have a lot of patience for technical gobbledygook and they tend to side with consumers. If the manufacturer is splitting hairs that your bike failed because of some unknown "fatigue" and THEY can't show that's actually a reasonable defense, they will lose.

If you win, which is likely on something like this, you still have to collect and if they don't pay, there's more runaround to have them found in contempt. But generally speaking, if you can get the judgement against a business in small claims, you will get the money.


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## froze

Nicole Hamilton said:


> That's not how it works and I'm wondering if you've ever been to small claims or been involved in much litigation. The hurdle in civil litigation is "preponderance of the evidence", not "beyond a reasonable doubt" and certainly not beyond a "shadow of a doubt." You only have to be just the tiniest bit more believable than the other side to win.
> 
> .


What you said is true to a limit. The limit is the state in which you live. If you live in a state that is pro business you stand a good chance of losing if you don't have overwhelming evidence. And the way you presented that statement is you don't need much evidence to win, that isn't true. If the evidence you submit is just your opinion and the company has an expert opinion you'll lose. You need to have expert opinion hopefully in person or at least in writing on your side to assure the win. Sure you could get lucky and win based on preponderance if the bicycle manufacture fails to show better evidence, but do you really thing a bicycle company is going to send some 5th grader to argue the case? If the bike company has made the determination not to fix the frame their going to send their best representative with all the evidence concerning your bike to make sure you lose the case. The company is going to be very well prepared, you should be better prepared. In addition to that the company is going to be prepared if things don't go well to make an offer that they will claim is typical, such as a wholesale cost of a new frame, you have to be prepared to tell the judge why that isn't acceptable.

It's not as simple as you made it sound. Idiots with no preparation, and or no evidence to substantiate their claim WILL lose. You have to treat a court case like the military would invade another country...with overwhelming force, force in this case is your evidence.


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## Nicole Hamilton

froze said:


> And the way you presented that statement is you don't need much evidence to win, that isn't true. If the evidence you submit is just your opinion and the company has an expert opinion you'll lose. You need to have expert opinion hopefully in person or at least in writing on your side to assure the win. ... do you really thing a bicycle company is going to send some 5th grader to argue the case? If the bike company has made the determination not to fix the frame their going to send their best representative with all the evidence concerning your bike to make sure you lose the case.


That's not at all what I said and I disagree with the rest of your claims as well.

The hurdle is "preponderance of the evidence" and that's what I said. I don't know how anyone could possibly twist that into a claim that I think it's enough to go in with just your own opinion. To the contrary, I specifically mentioned some of the evidence you'll need, including your sales receipt, your warranty and the correspondence. Additional evidence might include photographs and perhaps a letter from a bike shop that's examined the bike.

I'll say again: You only need to be the tiniest bit more believable than they are. That's how it works.

I also stand by my claim that small claims is quite informal. The idea they're going to fly in some expert and some $500/hr attorneys to fight this is ludicrous. You've obviously not been through this.

What's most likely is they'll send a regional sales manager and he'll claim he's been selling bikes for 30 years and he's never seen such a specious claim and that it's obviously all your fault, blah, blah, blah. But it'll all be empty blather and the judge will know that and will focus instead on which party seems most truthful, what the warranty says and whether common sense tells him the failure should have been covered under that warranty. Maybe (but only maybe) they'll send an attorney. No way are they going to send some independent expert in carbon fiber or whatever.


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## froze

Nicole Hamilton said:


> That's not at all what I said and I disagree with the rest of your claims as well.
> 
> The hurdle is "preponderance of the evidence" and that's what I said. I don't know how anyone could possibly twist that into a claim that I think it's enough to go in with just your own opinion. To the contrary, I specifically mentioned some of the evidence you'll need, including your sales receipt, your warranty and the correspondence. Additional evidence might include photographs and perhaps a letter from a bike shop that's examined the bike.
> 
> I'll say again: You only need to be the tiniest bit more believable than they are. That's how it works.
> 
> I also stand by my claim that small claims is quite informal. The idea they're going to fly in some expert and some $500/hr attorneys to fight this is ludicrous. You've obviously not been through this.
> 
> What's most likely is they'll send a regional sales manager and he'll claim he's been selling bikes for 30 years and he's never seen such a specious claim and that it's obviously all your fault, blah, blah, blah. But it'll all be empty blather and the judge will know that and will focus instead on which party seems most truthful, what the warranty says and whether common sense tells him the failure should have been covered under that warranty. Maybe (but only maybe) they'll send an attorney. No way are they going to send some independent expert in carbon fiber or whatever.


Being informal vs being well prepared are two TOTALLY different things. 

And when do you know you have a just a tinny teeny bit better case? AFTER THE FACT, going into it you have no clue. That's like being invited to a knife fight only to find out afterwards the other guy brought a gun, you only brought a oversize knife, but you didn't know the gun was going to brought to the party so since you brought an oversize knife you thought all was in your favor. 

I'll tell you what, to save from going into a huge argument, I'll take the side of being over prepared, and you just go with your whatever you have. End of conversation.


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## Nicole Hamilton

froze said:


> Being informal vs being well prepared are two TOTALLY different things.


Indeed they are, but it doesn't sound like you what that difference is within the context of our court system.

The informality I'm referring to is the format. It's more like a motion hearing in a district court than any sort of trial. There's no discovery before you go in, you can't subpoena anyone or anything, you don't file any memorandums, you don't put on witnesses, there's no cross-examination, the judge expects you'll be pro se (representing yourself, something most judges hate if you try it in district court) and the rules are relaxed. No one calls out, "Objection, hearsay!"

Usually, the judge gives each side a couple minutes to state their case and submit whatever evidence they've brought. The rest of it is usually the judge asking his own questions. The whole thing is over in maybe 10 minutes.

Preparation is something else. It's knowing what your argument is, what evidence you have and what points you want to get across in just the couple minutes you'll get, including what outcome you want, i.e., how much money you think you're owed. But it's also knowing how this works. I don't think you do. I don't think you understood what the term "informal" within this context. And I also don't think you understand how it's decided.

The case will be decided based on the "preponderance of evidence" because it's a civil matter and it's only money at stake. That's a weaker standard than in a criminal case where someone might face jail and the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" (which does not mean beyond any doubt, just reasonable doubts.)

Preponderance of evidence has a specific technical meaning to lawyers. From Blacks, it's


> Evidence which is of greater weight or more convincing than the evidence which is offered in opposition to it; that is, evidence which as a whole shows that the fact sought to be proved is more probable than not. ... that which best accords with reason and probability.


The important word to focus on there is "greater." It doesn't say how much greater. It just says greater. That's deliberate. Your case only has to better than than the defendant's, not lots better. They don't get some sort "presumption of innocence" you need to overcome. Also, notice the word "reason". Judges are lawyers, not nuclear scientists. They decide things based a lot more on common sense than irrefutable, iron-clad scientific evidence. (And after you've been on the losing side of enough decisions, you'll wonder how much common sense is even required but that's another matter.)

How can things go astray? Well, here are some of the obvious ways to lose.

1. You fail to show up.

2. You're wrong. The warranty really does not cover this and you apparently didn't understand the terms very well. No judge will give you something the warranty "should" have covered.

3. You're lying. You claim it just broke for no reason but your story just doesn't add up. You know the line on the TV program, House, "Everyone lies"? Well, people do that in court all day long and judges get good at spotting this.

4. You really are unprepared or too nervous or too stoned or too something. You've turned your case into some kind of long shaggy dog story with no obvious point the judge can possibly understand in the couple minutes before he loses patience with you. Focus on what's relevant. Here's what the warranty saws. Here's the damage. Here's why it's covered. This is how much I want to be paid. The judge doesn't need to know that this was your favorite route or what Aunt Edna said when she saw your scraped elbows. If you need to, put some bullets on an index card.

5. It really is a judgment call and it could have gone either way. It's a "he said, she said" case, one word against the other, none of the rest of the evidence is very compelling and the judge did his best to decide fairly. But in the end, you lost.

For anyone thinking about pursuing a matter in small claims, I hope this may be helpful.


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## PhotoJoe

AGB has proven time and time again that they are not interested in warranty claims. I'm not saying they don't honor any, but there are MANY stories like yours. And with that said, I would NEVER give them my money. I would also not pay them for a replacement frame. I would look elsewhere, to a company that stands behind their warranties.

As far a Lynskey, they are a class act. I'm working through details right now on a new road bike. Just have to figure out which one and I'll pull the trigger. Don has been amazing to work with. I would at least give them a call and talk. If it's not right for you, then at least you've done your homework.

Here is their warranty, from their website:

All Lynskey Performance Designs bicycle frames carry a limited lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects to the original owner. We reserve the option to repair or replace your frame, depending upon the identified issue and the repairs necessary.

We also offer the only Total Satisfaction Policy in the industry. Simply put, if you have ordered a custom frame and it does not perform per your ordered specification, then we will make it right. If for any reason you are dissatisfied with anything you have purchased from us, we want to hear about it. Tell us what the problem is and how we can fix it. That is our policy, period.

If you have crashed your bike or drove your car into a parking deck while your bike was on top, then it is not covered under our warranty program, but we can help you fix it. Give us the details and we can determine the best solution for repair.

Thank you for purchasing a Lynskey Performance product.


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## infopete

I'm amazed ABG have not learnt a lesson about warranty and customer support.

My problem with my Merlin Cielo generated 10's of thousands of hits on several cycling forums and my Wordpress blog, a year and a bit after I got my Merlin Cielo repaired, still gets 200 hits a month.

Our cycling community is not stupid and we all value good service. 

Googling "American Bicycle Group Warranty" is interesting.


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## froze

infopete said:


> I'm amazed ABG have not learnt a lesson about warranty and customer support.
> 
> My problem with my Merlin Cielo generated 10's of thousands of hits on several cycling forums and my Wordpress blog, a year and a bit after I got my Merlin Cielo repaired, still gets 200 hits a month.
> 
> Our cycling community is not stupid and we all value good service.
> 
> Googling "American Bicycle Group Warranty" is interesting.


Did you, or AGB come to any logical conclusion as to how both dropouts cracked and or broke, and how the headtube cracked? My understanding from your site that they declared it an accident, which kind of makes sense but I don't see any scuff marks indicating such. I did read one of the posters on your site stated the following: 

"I’ve spend over 20 years in engineering and aerospace and have plenty of experience of highly-engineered products in composites and titanium. Initial thoughts from the photos are this is classic weld-failure due to hydrogen-embrittlement / contaminated weld. There is nothing in those photos which indicate crash-damage – and I’ve crashed and repaired plenty of bikes to know the classic signs – outward bend of the gear hanger isn’t one of them. I guess the guys at ABG skipped the ‘customer service’ classes at business school, because their reputation is heading so far south it must be across the Rio Grande!"

Was that basically the final determination for the damage? Other posters thought there wasn't enough evidence to prove or disprove the embrittlement theory. But all of that doesn't account for the cracked head tube.

Bob Bichen posted this on your site too which I found interesting: 

"It would seem that LItespeed has lost a lot of what made it special at one time. My 3 year old, lightly used, Vortex (sold as a Douglas Titanium through Colorado Cyclist) cracked at the head tube weld. Like others, I am getting the runaround from Litespeed (ABG). I didn’t even hear a peep from Colorado Cyclist until today, after I sent them draft pleadings (lawsuit; breach of warranty, etc.) Within an hour the owner calls me. At least I have his attention but I suspect I won’t get resolution until I file suit and serve Litespeed. A real shame as I have always admired them and own two of their bikes. But this will be the last one even if they do warranty it. Next bike will be something different (if another Ti, probably Lynskey)."

Obviously your not alone. And I've heard similar complaints on other forums over the years since AGB took over, so a AGB Lightspeed, Merlin, or Quintana Roo frame breaking is not something AGB will likely honor their warranty over...at least not without a major hassle and threat of a lawsuit.

If I remember correctly AGB repaired your bike and then said the repair will void your warranty for any future warranty claims...so much for the lifetime warranty.


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## infopete

froze said:


> Did you, or AGB come to any logical conclusion as to how both dropouts cracked and or broke, and how the headtube cracked? My understanding from your site that they declared it an accident, which kind of makes sense but I don't see any scuff marks indicating such. I did read one of the posters on your site stated the following:
> 
> "I’ve spend over 20 years in engineering and aerospace and have plenty of experience of highly-engineered products in composites and titanium. Initial thoughts from the photos are this is classic weld-failure due to hydrogen-embrittlement / contaminated weld. There is nothing in those photos which indicate crash-damage – and I’ve crashed and repaired plenty of bikes to know the classic signs – outward bend of the gear hanger isn’t one of them. I guess the guys at ABG skipped the ‘customer service’ classes at business school, because their reputation is heading so far south it must be across the Rio Grande!"
> 
> Was that basically the final determination for the damage? Other posters thought there wasn't enough evidence to prove or disprove the embrittlement theory. But all of that doesn't account for the cracked head tube.
> 
> Bob Bichen posted this on your site too which I found interesting:
> 
> "It would seem that LItespeed has lost a lot of what made it special at one time. My 3 year old, lightly used, Vortex (sold as a Douglas Titanium through Colorado Cyclist) cracked at the head tube weld. Like others, I am getting the runaround from Litespeed (ABG). I didn’t even hear a peep from Colorado Cyclist until today, after I sent them draft pleadings (lawsuit; breach of warranty, etc.) Within an hour the owner calls me. At least I have his attention but I suspect I won’t get resolution until I file suit and serve Litespeed. A real shame as I have always admired them and own two of their bikes. But this will be the last one even if they do warranty it. Next bike will be something different (if another Ti, probably Lynskey)."
> 
> Obviously your not alone. And I've heard similar complaints on other forums over the years since AGB took over, so a AGB Lightspeed, Merlin, or Quintana Roo frame breaking is not something AGB will likely honor their warranty over...at least not without a major hassle and threat of a lawsuit.
> 
> If I remember correctly AGB repaired your bike and then said the repair will void your warranty for any future warranty claims...so much for the lifetime warranty.


In my previous posts I've said everything that was needed to say regarding my warranty claim.

The point I am trying to make here is companies spend a fortune on search engine optimisation to ensure their products pop up as high as possible on a Google search.

The last thing I assumed any manafacturer would want is a lot of, once loyal, customers moaning and ranting about a complete lack of warranty and support.


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## froze

infopete said:


> In my previous posts I've said everything that was needed to say regarding my warranty claim.
> 
> The point I am trying to make here is companies spend a fortune on search engine optimisation to ensure their products pop up as high as possible on a Google search.
> 
> The last thing I assumed any manafacturer would want is a lot of, once loyal, customers moaning and ranting about a complete lack of warranty and support.


So no comment about the cracked head tube as to how that may have happened? If I remember correctly you didn't really comment about it in your previous posts either.


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## infopete

froze said:


> So no comment about the cracked head tube as to how that may have happened? If I remember correctly you didn't really comment about it in your previous posts either.


If I knew why my Merlin fell apart I would tell you. What I can say, again, is it was never in an accident.

:mad2:


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## froze

infopete said:


> If I knew why my Merlin fell apart I would tell you. What I can say, again, is it was never in an accident.
> 
> :mad2:


You can beat your head all you want, but I'm not siding against you. If you couldn't tell that from my post then continue to beat your head maybe you'll knock some sense into it.


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## infopete

froze said:


> You can beat your head all you want, but I'm not siding against you. If you couldn't tell that from my post then continue to beat your head maybe you'll knock some sense into it.


No problem


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## mtnbikerva1

*Thank you for the education on ABG and small claims*

I was going to buy a Xicon or less chance of but maybe the Archon.
I WILL NOT BUY ANOTHER LITESPEED NOW!
I have 2 now but they were when Litespeed was Lynskey.
I will buy a Moots, Lynskey (leaning this way) or some other Ti bike.
The new Litespeed company seem to be crooks and dishonest to me.


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## Cru Jones Columbus

Are warranties valid when a company has a change in ownership? The people that owned Litespeed when you bought your frame are different than who owns it now.


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## froze

Cru Jones Columbus said:


> Are warranties valid when a company has a change in ownership? The people that owned Litespeed when you bought your frame are different than who owns it now.


Problem with the new owners of Lightspeed, the AGB group or whatever they hell their initials are, is that they won't warranty their own warranties on bikes made while they are at the helm! So no way will they honor a warranty prior to them taking over...at least not without an attorney intervening.

Typically though if a company buys out another company they have to honor their warranties on products sold prior to sale of the company. There has been cases where a company bought out another then sent registered mail stating they would not be honoring warranties but most companies if not all stopped that because it hurt sales like crazy for the new company.


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## threebikes

The reason the frame cracked there is its a bad design. The mount should taper like this.


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## froze

But even with that tapered mount you can still experience that same effect, that metal piece is working like a can opener against the frame. Short of putting thicker gauge steel or a lug on the actual frame and or making the part longer to spread out the load you're just waiting for that to happen...of course depending on the riders weight and abuse the bike is given it could last forever or only last a few years.

I can't tell in the picture if the tapered part is longer then the original, but tapered is not the problem, the problem is spreading out the load forces over a greater area on the frame or reinforcing the frame to handle it..


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## threebikes

Yep the stock mount is to short.


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## Yerma

*Why I won't buy a Litespeed.*

Lifetime warranty well... I'm OK with simply a realistic warranty for a $2700-$4K frame.
10 years maybe? So... here's why I won't buy one. I like the look, geometry and construction of their new LR1 and have been mulling over purchasing one. So I I carefully looked their warranty. I was a bit surprised to read that they consider loosening ( failure) of the water bottle bosses to be covered for only 30 days. Yep 30 days. On carbon frames I have seen this happen more than once and it's a pain to fix. You can do it... but it's a pain. Since the warranty page also included being charged for refinishing the frame I assumed this was from Litespeed's pre carbon days so I sent an inquiry. The response from Sarah from ABMG is here: 
"Thank you for submitting your warranty question. Yes, if a water bottle riv
nut comes loose after 30 days then it is not considered a manufacturing
defect and will not be covered under warranty. We make a $4000 TI frame as
well, if the riv nut comes loose on that frame after 30 days it is not
considered a manufacturing defect either."

OK... glad to know they stand behind their products. For 30 days. For a $4,000 frame. OK, moving on. :thumbsup:


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## froze

yup, move on...away from any bike built by ABG, including Quintana Roo, and Merlin.


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## King Arthur

As I mentioned earlier, a lifetime warranty is useless, especially when it comes down to the 
"limited of time." This is more than likely stipulated in the "fine print of the contract." I find it easier to get a nice carbon frame, keep in mind that it has a limited lifetime, and plan for replacing it after a 
certain time period.


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## froze

King Arthur said:


> As I mentioned earlier, a lifetime warranty is useless, especially when it comes down to the
> "limited of time." This is more than likely stipulated in the "fine print of the contract." I find it easier to get a nice carbon frame, keep in mind that it has a limited lifetime, and plan for replacing it after a
> certain time period.


That is true. I have a lifetime warranty on a 84 Trek steel lugged bike. So how would Trek handle their lifetime warranty on a lugged steel frame they no longer make either the frame or steel lugged frames? What would they replace it with if a braze failed? A cheap steel 520 frame? A cheap aluminum frame? That 660 was the second from the top of the line bike made that year, would they replace it with their current second from the top of the line model bike? Sure they will, don't make me laugh, in other words I'm screwed in the terms of the warranty. 

Usually if something is wrong in the construction of the frame it should present itself within the first year of ownership and most of the time the failure will happen within the first 90 days.

Having said that, Competition Cyclist has their own lifetime warranty that supersedes the manufacture warranty. They claim that if for any reason in your lifetime that you are unhappy with the bike you can get either a refund or an exchange dollar for dollar, and they claim that includes crashing the bike! I personally sent an e-mail to Competition Cyclist questioning that claim of crashing and they did confirm it, but if I was buying a bike from them I would drill the sales person to make sure that information is correct, and get it in writing because that sounds too good to be true. Of course if Competition Cyclist goes out of business then so does your warranty.


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## Yerma

*Credit to ABG where due.*

I realize that this discussion is about the meaning of "lifetime" when a product is sold with that warranty, but I'll give credit where credit is due. This morning I received a follow up call from ABG on my inquiry about the warranty (see quote) and was pleased with the conversation and the effort the company took to reach me for clarification.
It seems the website information is inaccurate and that was used to base the initial response to my inquiry. So a loosening of a water bottle rivet *is covered* for the true (not 30 day) warranty period. I understand the website information is being changed to reflect the actual warranty policy. I know that if you have a frame that has failed due to a material or manufacturing fault and are fighting to get it warrantied- this doesn't mean very much. However, when a larger company rep makes the effort to reach out to a _potential customer _ to clarify a policy, it should be applauded. No... I don't work in the industry, or for a bike shop or for ABG. And yes I've been riding and racing for 30 years.



Yerma said:


> Lifetime warranty well... I'm OK with simply a realistic warranty for a $2700-$4K frame.
> 10 years maybe? So... here's why I won't buy one. I like the look, geometry and construction of their new LR1 and have been mulling over purchasing one. So I I carefully looked their warranty. I was a bit surprised to read that they consider loosening ( failure) of the water bottle bosses to be covered for only 30 days. Yep 30 days. On carbon frames I have seen this happen more than once and it's a pain to fix. You can do it... but it's a pain. Since the warranty page also included being charged for refinishing the frame I assumed this was from Litespeed's pre carbon days so I sent an inquiry. The response from Sarah from ABMG is here:
> "Thank you for submitting your warranty question. Yes, if a water bottle riv
> nut comes loose after 30 days then it is not considered a manufacturing
> defect and will not be covered under warranty. We make a $4000 TI frame as
> well, if the riv nut comes loose on that frame after 30 days it is not
> considered a manufacturing defect either."
> 
> OK... glad to know they stand behind their products. For 30 days. For a $4,000 frame. OK, moving on. :thumbsup:


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## froze

Yerma said:


> I realize that this discussion is about the meaning of "lifetime" when a product is sold with that warranty, but I'll give credit where credit is due. This morning I received a follow up call from ABG on my inquiry about the warranty (see quote) and was pleased with the conversation and the effort the company took to reach me for clarification.
> It seems the website information is inaccurate and that was used to base the initial response to my inquiry. So a loosening of a water bottle rivet *is covered* for the true (not 30 day) warranty period. I understand the website information is being changed to reflect the actual warranty policy. I know that if you have a frame that has failed due to a material or manufacturing fault and are fighting to get it warrantied- this doesn't mean very much. However, when a larger company rep makes the effort to reach out to a _potential customer _ to clarify a policy, it should be applauded. No... I don't work in the industry, or for a bike shop or for ABG. And yes I've been riding and racing for 30 years.


When they actually fix your problem then report back, talk is cheap.


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## Yerma

No... talk is free and I have no problem to fix. As I stated in my original post, information on Litespeeds website and an initial response kept me from considering their current frames. And since I went through the trouble to post that information, I felt the correct response on my part should be to post their follow up and correction.


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