# Long steady rides?



## Gervase

To build endurance, I have read from Chris Carmichael, and Joe Friel, that Training in Heart Rate zones (out of 5 zones) zone 2-3 being the optimal?

My understanding is that by doing long steady training where my max HR is 173 that in zone 3 I would be 121-138 (i think thats the range, close values)

Training in Zone 2 teaches, trains the body to burn fat more readily

From what I have read, this builds the cardio vascular system for endurance. Obviously interval training mid week etc pushes the VO2 (lactate threshold) to increase speed, power etc.

So I train with my long Sunday weekend rides (4-5 hours) in zone 3, recovery monday, hard on wed, recovery thurs, maybe another type ride (tues or sat)

So to build endurance, improve, Have I got it right?


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## Fordy

*Sounds right to me*

Outside mag posted this article http://outsideonline.com/fitness/tr...ining-recovery-athletes-sidwcmdev_153019.html
I'm still mulling this one over but, it sounds like LSD (Long, Slow, Distance) has a risk of falling into the black hole. My evidence is people who ride long and ultra long events at moderate paces and never get stronger. There is no substitute for intervals...if you want to get stronger and ride faster. Even on a long ride I try to work in some intervals. If you do your intense cardio work and ride quality miles the only thing you need to train for endurance is butt time...


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## Fixed

*hills*

That's pretty much what I do, but I push it up to around AT on climbs. Plenty of that around here. 



Gervase said:


> To build endurance, I have read from Chris Carmichael, and Joe Friel, that Training in Heart Rate zones (out of 5 zones) zone 2-3 being the optimal?
> 
> My understanding is that by doing long steady training where my max HR is 173 that in zone 3 I would be 121-138 (i think thats the range, close values)
> 
> Training in Zone 2 teaches, trains the body to burn fat more readily
> 
> From what I have read, this builds the cardio vascular system for endurance. Obviously interval training mid week etc pushes the VO2 (lactate threshold) to increase speed, power etc.
> 
> So I train with my long Sunday weekend rides (4-5 hours) in zone 3, recovery monday, hard on wed, recovery thurs, maybe another type ride (tues or sat)
> 
> So to build endurance, improve, Have I got it right?


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## Gervase

"Fordy", excellent post, thank you,  just spent the last week discussing this on another forum, & was rubbished for my comments. However they did not say why? Your link just explains it. 
We all want to learn ( presumably) which is why we post, & I wanted to learn. So maybe yes LSD may be a little counter productive? But then Miguel indurain used to do 7-8 hour rides early season I think? Doing LSD rides. Maybe these have 2 b in zone 2? To make sure they are slow enough? Then hammer yourself on mid week rides?
I have a friend who was told by his friend matt brick, on long rides, "go hard for 30, very easy next 30, then repeat" that makes more sense with the link u posted. As it avoids the black hole. 
Thumbs up mate


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## Fordy

*The presumption is...*

that you intend to get stronger. Nothing wrong with steady eddy endurance rides. They just may not increase your level of fitness. On another note....I sometimes wonder if male species are more inclined or prewired to push these limits....Men seem to push anarobic threshholds more readily than women. Please consider this only a question for conversation. It is an observation. Certainly not something I would submit as fact....


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## Gervase

I was lambasted for my approach? i could not see what was wrong with this type of training? I said that as some weekend warriors liked to go hard on those long rides? I personally think this is counter productive, as recovery time would now have to increase? therefore, what would be the point.


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## Gervase

Fordy, I was told that increasing the intensity on shorter rides, which obviously stress the body and get the compensation thing happening, can actually bring on better endurance? than these Long Steady Distance rides. 

I still therefore question this whole concept as to the reasons for doing the LSD, as you pointed out they just may not increase your fitness. However they must bring benefit, they must be in their own right a good conditioner? But taking the short intense rides to build endurance..........well this was espoused by a pretty top rider? 
With this black hole, maybe the training should be to do the long rides, even slower? or mix in some intervals? 
Recovery is another key factor in this equation.


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## Gervase

Just to add to the discussion, and create some controversy, which in turn creates discussion which in turn helps us learn. 

BASE TRAINING
By Kenneth Lundgren
Teammate Chris Facas recently wrote this in his online training diary:
“This year’s main objective is to build a wider and taller base for the fitness pyramid to ensure more power at the peak. Don’t we all want more POWER? More power to put the screws to a slacker hanging on your wheel, more power to drop people on a climb, more power to be the lead out man for a teammate, more power to do a better 40k TT, more power to hang in there when your eyeballs are ready to pop out of your head.
“Don’t we all want more POWER? We are not like cars where you can buy more power. We have to work endlessly to tune our engines. Some of us naturally have an 8 cylinder, while others are given a 6 cylinder that we are milling the heads, installing larger carburetors, tweaking the fuel source to get the right air mixture with the hopes of getting more horsepower...”
So it’s January. A lot of us have the urge to start riding faster, harder at the start of the new year. But read Chris’s first words: “WIDER, TALLER BASE...” We all have to ride slower in order to go fast later on. Who won the Tour de France seven years in a row? Lance Armstrong. One reason? He was pouring in 500-mile weeks every week from November to December, just riding steady, aerobically, developing an enormous base and a strong foundation with which to start building power and speed. When it came time to ramp up the intensity, his body responded very, very well.
The same with Miguel Indurain. He was famous for starting training on Dec 1 and he would do 7-8-hour days, LSD, in long blocks. In July, he dominated. Tom Boonen, World Champ last year, winner of Paris-Roubaix, twice winner of Tour of Flanders, notoriously goes out through the Belgian winter to put in those long, critical miles. In Belgium, the winters are far worse than here. Some guys do 3-4 hours inside, whereas Boonen is outside for 6+, riding riding riding. In the final miles of a long Classic, he has that slight edge...
It's not a coincidence that these riders, who work diligently throughout the winter, shine during the summer. When we ride slower, our bodies are burning fat for energy. Endurance rides are an entirely aerobic effort. We are priming the engine. Our metabolisms begin revving up. We are building the strongest aerobic engine possible. After all, the aerobic engine powers your cycling success. Training volume high, intensity low.
Cutting back on the “intensity” during the winter, concentrating more on endurance and steady tempo riding, makes it easier to build up during the spring and summer. If you do too much throughout the winter, stressing the wrong engines, you’ll have problems building correctly when it’s time to get down to business. Winter training should not stress the Anaerobic and Lactic Acid system too much because then you’re breakingdown your muscles (something we’re trying to build!). In the winter, I like to see riders building their endurance, then begin to build power in the gym, then work on steady tempo and on-the-bike power movements.
If you ride hard all year, you either burn out, or if you’re super stubborn, you plateau. You hit 80% fitness and get stuck. You train harder but to no avail. Improvements that come are often lost because the body just cannot maintain that high level for too long. You’re relatively “fit” all year but you’re perpetually tired. It’s a hard cycle to break, not riding hard.
Most riders have problems with this. “How can I go fast by riding slow?” The always-fit hammerheads hammer year-round, but their weakest months are always May, June, July, August. Smart athletes are peaking and leaving their competitors behind. The hammerheads have problems keeping up with the increased speeds and distances because they always train the same way. Increasing workload only makes them more overtired... and they either crack and get dropped, or they quit.
Succinctly, by summer, the classic hammerheads are toast. They’re bored or burned out. FYI: burnout is not fun. Interest in training, racing, and perhaps even life generally vanishes! It takes months for enthusiasm to come back, if it comes back at all. And the reason is simple: after about 12 weeks of training in the same way, improvement plateaus. Riders can’t understand that they’re training so hard, but they’re not getting any faster or are going slower. It kills them psychologically. Trying to maintain fitness at a high level means trying to minimize losses. That's not going to work...
Joe Friel, world-renowned coach, says during the long endurance rides, your heart begins to pump more blood per heartbeat, your muscle fibers develop more capillaries, and your oxygen transportation to your muscles is increased. In Layman’s Terms, you’re building your aerobic engine. If your body becomes superior in this regard, how do you think it’s going to affect your performances when it's time to lay down the hammer for two hours? You’re going to have a huge, huge advantage...
I was a skeptic, too. Train easy? Ha. No way! I was a strong rider, winning amateur races. When I upgraded to the Pro/1/2 category, I had problems keeping up. So all winter I trained hard, doing what I thought was appropriate. In the spring, I was flat. By summer, I was dead and dropped and stopped riding. I learned the hard way. Then I embraced periodization, and by mid-October, with minimal but smart training, I was as fast as ever, fresher, hungrier, and I began to understand how the human body works and responds to training stress.
The winter is the time to fully establish the basic fitness abilities of endurance, power, and pedaling efficiency. I always over-prescribe foundation training. Some athletes are careless and end this phase too soon. No. My firm belief is that it’s essential to have a strong foothold before launching high-intensity training.


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## Fordy

*The fun is in learning what works for you*

I, like everybody else, have other "business of life" obligations, commitments, and interests. I have to build my training, cycling events, and recreational time around that. My ability to do that lies in the fact that I can commute to work by bicycle. Therfore, my commute tends to be a 25 mile hammerfest. This fits well with the professional training regimes we read about. I consider myself fortunate. The thing about endurance riding that you can't overlook is the extra things you need to train. Eating, drinking, pacing, weather changes, elevation, and support. You might be in fine shape but to complete an ultramarathon/long endurance event you have to take many more things into consideration. For example, its not unusal to be in very remote locations and you could be several hours from water or food. 
Yes, you can increase your strength, fitness, and endurance with a solid training regime without constant LSD riding. However, the demands of a long event need plenty training and attention in and of themselves.....


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## IAmSpecialized

Fordy said:


> Outside mag posted this article http://outsideonline.com/fitness/tr...ining-recovery-athletes-sidwcmdev_153019.html
> I'm still mulling this one over but, it sounds like LSD (Long, Slow, Distance) has a risk of falling into the black hole. .


Interesting article. But using the article for cyling I do have a problem when the article reads, "The danger zone, he says, is just above the intensity where your body shifts from aerobic to anaerobic training, a tipping point known as your lactate threshold."

For running, perhaps. I don't really know though b/c I don't know much about training as a runner. But I hope no one is equating this advice with cycling...are you kidding me? If you equate this to cycling you are advising against training at LT? Poor advice for cycling.

There are a lot of training regimens and a LOT of debates about what works best and what produces the best results. No one regimen is the perfect regimen for everyone. You have to account for the current fitness level, riding level, time available to ride daily and weekly, riding goals, racing or not...etc. 

Just my .02.


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## Gnarly 928

*Long rides are just plain fun.....*

for me, anyhow. They're their own reward, never mind the training aspect. During the race season intervals, climbs, sprints, club hammerfests...those are what you have to do if you want to be at the front in normal races. Most of us just don't have the 'juice' to ride a double century on Friday then race on Sunday..all season long.

My off-season, I love the fact that I can go as long as I want without wearing myself thin for an upcoming race, without 'neglecting' more structured training. I winter where I can ride as much as I want, usually..and by the spring, when someone suggests a "little spin"....that can be up to 100 miles without a second thought. 

But if I am planning on racing well during the summer...I have to decline some of these enjoyable long days in the saddle and use my energy for intensity training...


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## IAmSpecialized

Gnarly 928 said:


> for me, anyhow. They're their own reward, never mind the training aspect. During the race season intervals, climbs, sprints, club hammerfests...those are what you have to do if you want to be at the front in normal races. Most of us just don't have the 'juice' to ride a double century on Friday then race on Sunday..all season long.
> 
> My off-season, I love the fact that I can go as long as I want without wearing myself thin for an upcoming race, without 'neglecting' more structured training. I winter where I can ride as much as I want, usually..and by the spring, when someone suggests a "little spin"....that can be up to 100 miles without a second thought.
> 
> But if I am planning on racing well during the summer...I have to decline some of these enjoyable long days in the saddle and use my energy for intensity training...


Very well said. The OP used the term "train," but I'm not sure whether he races or does endurance events or just used the term loosely. He has not specified time of year/etc, though one would assume he is referring to the present and perhaps building a base? But who knows?

However, if I'm understanding your response correctly, I think a lot of us fall on the same side as you. We have a small window right now where we can get in the LSD rides b/c, if for no other reason, they are their own reward.  And in this small window they have their place in periodization for a lot of people who have TIME available for training. Of course if you only have 8-10 hours per week to "train," perhaps 4 hour endurance rides are not the smart way to spend your time. But I basically alluded to that in my last post.

I think I'm going to stop typing and go out for a 3.5-4 hour level 2 ride this morning. Seriously.


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## ZoSoSwiM

Here is some info that might be similar..

I swim masters during the winter. A guy I know is in his late 40's and have been swimming massive amounts of yardage all year long. He is purely going to millage and doesn't do any interval work or hard sets. His ONLY focus is going long. 

When he's been to meets his times have not changed. He'll swim the 50, 100, 500, and 1000 freestyle and never really improve. 

Over the past month and a half that I've been training he's tagged along with a few of my hard sets.. we've also pushed each other for a few longer 2000 yard swims etc.

2 weeks ago he dropped more time than he has all year long. I attribute this entirely to him doing the hard sets with me. 

Him swimming 8000 yards straight every day might give him one hell of a strong heart.. but his muscles die if you push him past his comfort zone. When we swim hard sets together I kill him for most of the set but towards the end he starts sneaking back up on me.


Doing a lot of base work is great to start with but to get faster you need to go faster.


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## Hank Stamper

IAmSpecialized said:


> Interesting article. But using the article for cyling I do have a problem when the article reads, *"The danger zone, he says, is just above the intensity where your body shifts from aerobic to anaerobic training, a tipping point known as your lactate threshold."
> 
> For running, perhaps. I don't really know though b/c I don't know much about training as a runner. But I hope no one is equating this advice with cycling...are you kidding me? If you equate this to cycling you are advising against training at LT? Poor advice for cycling.*


It doesn't sound like you know much about training as a cyclist either. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk but it's basically conventional wisdom that many many people equate to cycling.


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## IAmSpecialized

Hank Stamper said:


> It doesn't sound like you know much about training as a cyclist either. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk but it's basically conventional wisdom that many many people equate to cycling.


Ok. Fair enough.

To the OP, I would highly suggest you embark on a RESEARCH journey of your own. There is plenty of data available out there for your reading pleasure.


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## IAmSpecialized

Hank Stamper said:


> It doesn't sound like you know much about training as a cyclist either. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk but it's basically conventional wisdom that many many people equate to cycling.


Actually, I think I will revisit this. Since you have made the assertion I do not know much about training as a cyclist (not saying I do, but you are the one making the claim here), could you please share the conventional wisdom regarding training at LT. Please provide data and sources.

EDIT: Just realized that sounded a little cheeky. Not meant that way. I would actually like to see your info.


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## Hank Stamper

IAmSpecialized said:


> Actually, I think I will revisit this. Since you have made the assertion I do not know much about training as a cyclist (not saying I do, but you are the one making the claim here), could you please share the conventional wisdom regarding training at LT. Please provide data and sources.
> 
> EDIT: Just realized that sounded a little cheeky. Not meant that way. I would actually like to see your info.



Here's a link. http://mikestriathlon.com/431/endurance-training-avoiding-the-no-mans-land/ Probably more wordy than it needs to be. The theory, in summary, is it's too difficult to maintain the pace for the long rides to build endurance, but not hard enough to really improve your overall aerobic fitness or increase your lactate threshold.


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## CoffeeBean2

*Another perspective*

The Myth of the Long, Slow Distance

http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/The_myth_of_Long_Slow_Distance__LSD_.htm?cmp=1747


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## Hank Stamper

CoffeeBean2 said:


> The Myth of the Long, Slow Distance
> 
> http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/The_myth_of_Long_Slow_Distance__LSD_.htm?cmp=1747


yeah I've seen to much contridicting information that I'm beginning to think the medical/scientific community really doesn't know much for sure and are just winging it. Favoring on training approach over another seems to be more a matter of 'faith' then cold hard facts.

Train hard. Rest. Repeat.

I'm starting to think that's all there is to it. But that doesn't sound scholarly enough to submit as research so we'll probably never heard the end of heart rate zones and so on but who knows if it really means anything.


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## Creakyknees

here's the data you need:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_interval_training#Tabata_Method

( I didn't say you'd like it )


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## IAmSpecialized

Hank Stamper said:


> Here's a link. http://mikestriathlon.com/431/endurance-training-avoiding-the-no-mans-land/ Probably more wordy than it needs to be. The theory, in summary, is it's too difficult to maintain the pace for the long rides to build endurance, but not hard enough to really improve your overall aerobic fitness or increase your lactate threshold.



Interesting. Thank goodness I don't wear a HR strap.


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## Pscyclepath

Two issues here... One is endurance, which gets you to the end of the ride, and you get that by putting in the base miles at the beginning of your riding season. The second factor is power, which lets you 1) go fast(er) and 2) get up the hills. You get this by doing intervals and similar strength training. Personally, I'm a fan of Joe Friels' training philosophy...


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## Gervase

I live in New Zealand, we can ride all year long, no need to have an "off Season" i feel sorry for you guys having to limit your time on the bike, becuase of the weather, cold.

I am really interested though in the whole contention around LSD. as the latest forum that I am reading and posting in, is at a very high level, with top NZ coaches contributing. they claim as stated that they feel LSD are not needed? intensity done correctly stimulates enough response to condition the muscles and body, so that they train smarter. 

Obviously not doing the very long rides that you guys are doing they are talking approximately just up to 200 k I would say.


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## Gervase

ZoSoSwim, That seems to bear up with what these guys say, that the LSD, will not give you much improvement, and that you will have endurance for going LONG and Slow, so the intervals seem to be important to lift the performance.

Thing is somewhere in this whole training, LSD must still be important? they say not important for teaching the body to burn fat?. it's interesting, given that if time constrains you, that interval training may be very good for endurance too?


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## Gervase

Yes, I too am a big fan of Joe Friel, and when these chappies bagged his LSD for building a base, it was the bait I took. 

I mentioned that he specifies the interval training for exactly what you say, but they maintain a bit like ZoSoSwim's posting, that going long and slow, does not build speed. I get that, i get that intervals do. So what does LSD really do?


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## Gnarly 928

Gervase said:


> I live in New Zealand, we can ride all year long, no need to have an "off Season" i feel sorry for you guys having to limit your time on the bike, becuase of the weather, cold.
> 
> I am really interested though in the whole contention around LSD. as the latest forum that I am reading and posting in, is at a very high level, with top NZ coaches contributing. they claim as stated that they feel LSD are not needed? intensity done correctly stimulates enough response to condition the muscles and body, so that they train smarter.
> 
> Obviously not doing the very long rides that you guys are doing they are talking approximately just up to 200 k I would say.


 Most of us have an "off-season" or 'recovery period' not because we can't ride. You simply burn out if you try to stay in top form all the time...it just can not be done....Even the pros take a break every year...of course, their breaks would probably be us 'normals' in peak form X 5!

So generally the accepted practice seems to be to 'notch-back' for a period..that period often coincides with winter...though some train for Cyclocross in winter as their main goal.

For my recovery period, I cut back during the fall, usually from around mid- November to around Christmas...I ride maybe 4 days a week and about 100-150miles only...Then after Christmas, I do my 'Fun Riding' (also called "base miles") till near the end of Feb. I ride lots of miles. Climb long passes. Do overnight credit card rides. Race a few crits. Do some casual races in the Desert Southwest..Just for fun. Oh sometimes I will go do intervals on a pass...like ten reps of max effort for a minute then 2 mins of recovery...repeat. Till I get to the top...Then I'll continue on that same ride for another couple of hours at tempo pace...

This kind of riding is fine for building endurance. It's also really fun. But as other's say, you'll not keep improving your riding much after a while if you only do Long Slow Distance rides, period. So I have to give up my "freedom" when I want to be competative 

But at the end of Feb. each year, after doing lots of high mile rides, week in week out 2-300 miles with lots of climbing....I can really ride all day without much problem and still have a good kick at the "Town Limit" sign at the end of every ride. 

But if I want to race, intervals and real structured training has to be done....and that doesn't leave too much time and energy available to 'squander' on just riding along, hour after hour.

Fun stuff.


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## Gervase

the thing is the HR monitor, tells you quite a bit of stuff, that you miss if you really on "how you feel"


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## Gervase

Gnarly 928, Thanks for the post. Sounds just along the lines, of what I have been told. I understand that the interval training is where you make the gains? thing is, does this mean that LSD training, really has little Merit? or like i suspect Chris Carmichael and Joe Friel say, it's important. If it is important? how much and in what way? 

the feedback I had from this other forum is that if you trained smart you did not need to do the LSD. My mind is open and I just want to understand just where LSD training fits in?


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## Gnarly 928

Gervase said:


> Gnarly 928, Thanks for the post. Sounds just along the lines, of what I have been told. I understand that the interval training is where you make the gains? thing is, does this mean that LSD training, really has little Merit? or like i suspect Chris Carmichael and Joe Friel say, it's important. If it is important? how much and in what way?
> 
> the feedback I had from this other forum is that if you trained smart you did not need to do the LSD. My mind is open and I just want to understand just where LSD training fits in?


 Depending on what you are trying to train for...

Long tempo rides are base training. They will take you to 90% ~ of your potential. Maybe 95%.. But most everyone you compete against will be right there along with you...It's the last few % of potential that you must train for if you are into maximizing your chances for a good race result. Wheel to wheel races.

If you are training for Ulta-events..intervals are not that applicable. You won't likely be using your "sprint" at the end of a 12hr day in the saddle in 100f weather. I know from racing Ultras that guys who're really pretty fast in other events are often not the fastest in long long events, in fact they often DNF. 

If you training time is limited, intervals and hill-repeats will get you that last few % of your potential power output. 

Hour after hour at 18mph? That will get you...worn out over time. Unless you are training for Ultra racing...and then you need to train like that for your butt and your gut and your brain to ignore your pain and fatigue...You'll need to know how to survive and have the mental toughness to keep on applying rotational force to your cranks long after your competition is 'soft pedaling' to just finish...

In a road race, you'll be spending some hours at 70-80-90% effort, interspersed with multiple short bursts of maximum eye-popping all out survival stuff. You gotta train for those efforts, after you've built that base 90% fitness level. If you don't have it there, you might as well stay off the starting line.

Most recreational very fit riders just don't get it...They underestimate the intensity level of actually racing. Gran Fondos, Century, club rides are not the same. I often hear.."I trained hard for the ______ century and I rode it in_____hrs. I could race, but I am just too busy with _____".... 

When I hear that, I just grin, and think..."Sheesh, that was me about 20yrs ago, before my first race....where I finished DFL. Now, after all these years, I can sometimes even hang with the pack"....or something. I even got a few podiums during all these years, and there is always the next race...

it is all fun.


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## Zachariah

Ride in the morning, before breakfast. You'll burn nothing but body fat, as this becomes the only available workout fuel. Don't expect any high average speeds though, as body fat makes for a rather poor source of performance-related fuel....it's only a survival source of energy, for the most basic of life functions; eating, sleeping, breathing, etc. But, if you can endure the monotony of long, moderate, steady-state rides - your body will increase endurance and soon, you'll "look" like an elite racer. I got my abs this way!


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## bigbill

Like others have said, it comes down to the reason you ride. If you race, you have to do intervals and add speed and effort to your workout. Going long and slow makes you good at long and slow. Same thing goes for fast group rides that devolve into a 24mph team time trial, you get really good at riding 24mph but that won't win a race or timetrial if that is your goal. 

I commute 43 miles round trip during the week. The last/first four miles has several stop lights so on interval days I sprint between lights. The first/last part of my commute has rolling hills with a significant climb two miles from my house. I work on my wattage on that section. 

If my goal is a double century, I do the normal stuff on my commute but go long and slow on the weekend to prepare my body for the ten hours in the saddle. The combination of the two types of rides allows me to average 20+ mph on the doubles.


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## Gervase

However, if I ride LSD on the weekend, and intervals during the week, is that not going to achieve speed ( during the week sessions) and the LSD weekend rides improve or keep that endurance base?
I think that the first 2-3 hours exhaust the glycogen, & carbohydrate levels within the body, it's after this time that your body must run on fat IF no fuel is supplied to the body.


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## atpjunkie

well I will be recovering from my broken hip this Spring. I have no idea when I will get back on the bike. When I do there will be some LSDs, typically I will not let my HR get over 150 even on climbs
Once I get a solid cardio base then I start doing harder efforts. LSDs are typical for winter and base building. Once you have a foundation, then workl on other aspects


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## Fredrico

*Hit nail squarly on head.*

Mr. Lundgren says it very well. The best writers agree about concentrating on the cardiovascular system over the winter. This would be in the 120-140 bpm heart rate with someone with 175 max. Spinning is a great way to stimulate the cardio system and build awesome endurance. It doesn't destroy the legs, uses slow twitch aerobic muscle fibers, stimulates capillaries next to the muscles as the article says, and increases oxygen uptake and volume of blood per stroke. It also presents a base to build strength on, and insures you'll always recover after anaerobic intervals and be able to do it again.


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## SelfPropelledDevo

its been years since I've done any structured "training"

yes in the day I used an HR monitor, and yes I kept a diary
and yes I used rollers and a stationary trainer
and yes, I did all those week long regimens 
then...
tying them together for the month, into blocks, peaking for the season and so forth.

its been years since I've done any of that.

typically I ride 20-30hrs/wk
I tried the Tour Divide this year
last year I did California Triple Crown on a 29er MTB...
I love touring... sometimes I'll roll out +100 miles in under 8hrs, with camping gear, etc...on a mtb.

how do I train?
I know it doesn't help
but I basically go by the season
and to top it off, I just mimic my buddies

most of them are on some sort of PowerMeter, so I simply follow their workouts
its easy...
I just pick a buddy and we go ride, I ride his his ride, and copy his moves.

while HR is definitely a method to train by and in my day of "training" late 90's to early 2000's
I rode with my Polar HR

now I forget all that garb.


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## Gervase

I am not sure I understand the point of your post?


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## evs

*Should my Speed increase after time w/ LSD*

A question for the experts. Let's pick some random #'s here. If I'm out of shape and I start doing LSD, which I like to call Long Steady Distance, instead of Slow , and I'm monitoring heart rate at 145 BPM with an avg speed of 15 mph. Over time, will my speed increase and HR stay the same? If so, how much would my speed increase? I know you can't say exactly but I was wondering if that happens when the heart starts getting in to shape. Just wondering if there are any signs that I can look for or do I have to wait for the HIT to see improvement. TIA


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## Gervase

HR of 145? for me this would be a zone 4 ride which would be a tempo ride. I think this is personal, u will get benefit, but if like me, this bpm ride may be too high to do LSD. You may just overtrain if you try to make this a LSD? 
The literature I have read suggests that fat burning occurs in zone 2, zone 3 starts to train the aerobic system, but other fuel is burnt some carbohydrate & muscle glycogen more so than zone 2. Zone 4 stresses the body more so less fat burnt.,
This is now to you a question of what zone you would be riding in? & what you want to achieve. As some have said here, riding LSD makes you achieve riding LSD does not make you fast? But I believe it's a good base to allow speed to be built upon. You could ride zone 2 for most of the ride & hammer hills in zone 5 to give interval training to some of the ride? Or like me,,do zones 2-3 then interval training mid week? 
I ride a 100 km ride every Sunday, & midweek fast rides. At 55 after 10 years I am at my fastest, improving all the time.


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## Zachariah

A lower, or same HR and increased speed only means your body has become an efficient engine. However, this is not going to occur, employing LSD exclusively. You *NEED HIIT* to get that bump in average speed...no question about it.


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## Fredrico

*Agree with gervase.*



evs said:


> A question for the experts. Let's pick some random #'s here. If I'm out of shape and I start doing LSD, which I like to call Long Steady Distance, instead of Slow , and I'm monitoring heart rate at 145 BPM with an avg speed of 15 mph. Over time, will my speed increase and HR stay the same? If so, how much would my speed increase? I know you can't say exactly but I was wondering if that happens when the heart starts getting in to shape. Just wondering if there are any signs that I can look for or do I have to wait for the HIT to see improvement. TIA


I'm 67 and 145 is what my HR hits at the top of a long, difficult climb. My AT is probably around 143. But for the last 20 years at least, I can do tempo rides, 15 mph average, at 120 bpm, up a little when climbing hills. I could do that all day, well, that is, if I have a thousand or so miles in my legs. If not, I have to slow and recover around 110 bpm.

For me, LSD benefits the cardio system, primarily. The legs stay toned, but intervals and fast club rides in the Spring is what makes them stronger. By then (if I've been riding :biggrin5. the cardio system is trained and ready to ramp up to the challenges.

A few years ago, I did club rides with younger guys. They were faster. :shocked: But riding tempo, I'd be doing 120-130 bpm and they'd be way up at 155-165! No wonder they could drop me on the hills! But seems like I was more efficient on the flats, because I'd been riding much longer than them. Although my legs weren't as powerful, I had better "endurance."

So yes, the longer you ride, you'll be able to deliver more watts (power, speed) with lower heart rates, as the lungs are able to take in more oxygen and the heart is able to pump more blood per stroke. The legs come around in a few months, but it takes the heart, arteries and capillaries several years.


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## Gervase

Thanks Fredrico, nice to have your take on things, so yes I agree with you


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## evs

*Thanks old timers *

It's good to know I can get better as I get a older. lol .Just so we are on the same page. I was using the following link from Hank Stamper as my guide line. http://mikestriathlon.com/431/endura...-no-mans-land/ He only uses 3 zones for the discussion. He uses 80% as the begining of No Mans Land. For me that would be 145 bpm at the upper level of zone 1. But figuring out that 70% is way down to 126 bpm I'm going to try and go even slower. It's interesting to note that in the article he states that below 2mmol/L of lactate, there’s no burning sensation and heart rates are around 60-75% of maximum. 60% is way down to 108bpm. I'd be in my granny gear.  I was on the rollers the other day and riding around 140 and it seemed so easy. I barely broke a sweat. Maybe 2 drops.  But in the article it says, "*most base training should be guilt-producingly easy*". I certainly understand that but I feel like I'm not doing anything worthwhile. Do you guys do any interval training during the winter months? I was thinking of adding a day a week for intervals just so I feel like I'm working hard towards gettting in shape. Shooting for that 90% and above mark. I've been guily of riding in this no mans land and obviously want to get better hence this discussion.I'm 45 so no spring chicken so I need all the help I can get.  Thanks for the input. It really does help let me know that it works for you guys. Have a good winter training and a Happy New Year. 

evs (will be trying to go faster this year by going slower :thumbsup: )


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## Zachariah

TIP: On downhills - spin up as fast as you can go, for the duration of the grade...it's FREE SPEED anyways!


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## Gervase

Yes, LSD in my understanding should be done at a pace where you can hold a pleasant conversation, ie no puffing, and yes, for my self, I would answer that I do interval training mid week to give the desired intensity and provoke the supercompensation, but LSD in the weekend, when I can obviously have time to do a 4-5 hour ride.


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## T K

Fredrico is spot on! Gervase, a 4-5 hour ride on the weekend is not really nescesary. What you need to do is realisticaly decide how many hours at most you can ride in a week. For me that's 20. So, first week of base I start out doing 8 hrs. Try to divide it as evenly per day. So that's about 1:10 per day riding at 70 to 80 percent Max HR. NO MORE. Cadence should be between 90 and 115 rpm. Each week increase by 2 hours. You can take a rest week in the middle and just putz around, just keep your HR low. My last week is my 20 hour week. Then give it a rest for a week, then move into transition phase doing moderate intervals working you're way up for 8 more weeks. Then go race. If you go to hard to soon you can blow you're season.
I learned the hard way riding with buddies that don't focus on racing who do centuries and hard group rides on weekends. Those things don't make you faster. They just train your body to suffer at moderate speed for long periods. Those same guys that think they are so fast on the Sat. morning group ride get their a$$es handed to them at the races. I went from not being able to hang with those guys to leaving them in my dust in a couple of years. Base is about being able to ride faster without getting out of breath as soon.
And, to answer someones question here. As your base increases you will be able to ride faster at the same heart rate and cadence. My average speed has increased by 1mph in the last few weeks. This will go up as the season goes on and year to year. In beginers It may take a couple of years to really see big improvements.


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## Gervase

TK, when you are building up in your base as you said start of 8 hours? and finishing with a 20 hour week? 
it makes me want to ask you why so low at the beginning and so much time at the end? 
Second question, do you like me, fit Intervals in Mid week? or between these LSD rides? or do you not do LSD rides?
Am i right in understanding that you 70-80% Max HR means you are riding just under your LT level, and therefore do you leave your interval training (pushing into the LT level and above) till later in your season in this transition phase that you talk of?


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## T K

You want to slowly build up your base. And trust me unless you are single with no kids 12 hours can be hard to get. You just do the best you can.
NO intervals during base. If you go over base pace you will destroy what you just built. People don't get this and then they think base does not work. You are slowly trying to build blood capillaries. They are built at base pace. They are destroyed at hard efforts. People with a good base can ride harder longer into the season. Think of them as a root system. Pros, have a huge root system they have been building for years. A good base system improves oxygen transport to muscles, reduces lactic build up, increases energy production and teaches body to burn more fat and less muscle glycogen.
Yes, transition is incorporating intervals. Once your base is built, then you can work on your top end. When you do hard efforts you burst capillaries. That is why it is important to not go hard during the building of these capillaries(base). There are also energy cells called mitochondria that are built during base. Google them and read for hours.


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## Gervase

Ok, TK, interesting your comments about going hard bursting capilliaries? I shall do as you say, and research,
Thanks for your comments.


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## Gervase

Tk, I have been researching capillaries, and exercise effect, & so far everything I have found contradicts your findings that going hard/intense will burst capilliaries? Mostly they say it BUILDS capilliaries? I even emailed joe friel on the subject, his response was that while he has heard others speak of this there is no evidence to support this phenomenen 
Could you please direct me to where you have seen this?


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