# Frame Debate -- Pinarello Dogma v. Merckx 3XM



## Jorge (Sep 23, 2004)

Looking for sage advice on this one.

Recognizing that my abilities justify neither frame, I've decided (with my wife's blessing) to treat myself to a top-shelf frame this year. I'm 6 '2, 225 lbs. I am looking for a higher performance frame than what I currently am riding (boron steel Bianchi). LBS has me narrowed down to these two frames. My own view is that the Dogma is silly fast, but may beat me to death on long rides (which I favor). The Merckx is sexy and comfy, but not as quick.

Only other frame that I've considered is the Colnago E-1, but the geometry (esp. head tube length) isn't so good for my aching back.

Reactions/thoughts? 

Thanks in advance.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well I don't know*

Rob McEwen seems to go silly fast on an MXM. The dogma is a fast ride but you are a big guy. (so am I , no offense) so here's my suggestion Merckx Premeir. Uses new Easton Flared Scandium pipes, stiffer than the Team SC (which is a stiff ride) but both it (SC) and the Premeir are also quite sweet rides. Scandium produces the most 'steel like' ride of any Al frame built. I own a Scandium ride and it is tre sweet. I've heard the life isn't as long, we'll see. If you are dropping coin and it's gotta last ya years and years get a Merckx MXL. Heavy, lugged steel but what a sweet ride and will last ya decades if not a lifetime, plus the modern retro caveat. I love Merckx bikes(I own 2), the geometry is just right.
last suggestion, contact the Bianchi Race Factory in Milan and get a custom bike based on Magnus Backstedt's Ti w/ foam filling Paris Roubaix rides.


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## olds_cool (Feb 14, 2005)

*don't have comments on any of the bikes you list, but...*

just wanted to say that colnago doesn't use an integrated headset, so add 2.5 to 3.5 cm to the headset length for the fact that the headset cups will be there when you build it up. colnago actually has a very long headtube when you look at it like in that manner.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

Don't let LBS narrow you down too fast. When dropping major coin you owe it to yourself to ride quite a few bikes. For longish, comfy rides try some of the carbon offerings.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

*Go Custom*



SantaCruz said:


> Don't let LBS narrow you down too fast. When dropping major coin you owe it to yourself to ride quite a few bikes. For longish, comfy rides try some of the carbon offerings.


 You're a big guy with custom needs. Custom is the only way to go. If you love long rides, don't buy a pro race frame, it's not going to deliver the ride you want. Talk to seven or serotta, or any of the really good builders. They will designate tube types, sizes, lengths, angles, etc. for your build and riding style. And there is plenty of cache in a custom frame, as much as the high end race bike.


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## Jorge (Sep 23, 2004)

AlexCad5 said:


> You're a big guy with custom needs. Custom is the only way to go. If you love long rides, don't buy a pro race frame, it's not going to deliver the ride you want. Talk to seven or serotta, or any of the really good builders. They will designate tube types, sizes, lengths, angles, etc. for your build and riding style. And there is plenty of cache in a custom frame, as much as the high end race bike.


AlexCad5 -- I'm interested in learning why you say that I have custom needs. I'm not challenging that view (I don't know enough about the custom option to challenge anyone's view on that issue). Rather, I'm simply interested in the reasoning behind it. Why, for example, would custom be a better option than a Colnago E-1 or the Merckx 3XM? From what I have read and seen, both of those frames seem to be built with long ride comfort in mind. Perhaps your point is that they were built with long ride comfort for pros, as opposed to enthusiasts, in mind. 

BTW -- cache is not a driving factor for me. I just happen to think that the 3XM is a beautiful frame. 

I really appreciate your thoughts and insights on this issue. 

Thanks.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

I think you should get the most expensive bike you can find.


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## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

*Caution against custom*

Be very careful with custom, because stock sizes are often tried and true sizes while custom can be really experimental especially when the customer with limited understanding of bike fit determines a lot of the lengths and angles. Seasoned builders can provide valuable input but they certainly have little incentive to be against the customer's will. Also when you change bikes, a custom frame will probably have much lower resale value.

On the headtube length question, I doubt Colnago has a shorter toptube than Pinarello.



Jorge said:


> AlexCad5 -- I'm interested in learning why you say that I have custom needs. I'm not challenging that view (I don't know enough about the custom option to challenge anyone's view on that issue). Rather, I'm simply interested in the reasoning behind it. Why, for example, would custom be a better option than a Colnago E-1 or the Merckx 3XM? From what I have read and seen, both of those frames seem to be built with long ride comfort in mind. Perhaps your point is that they were built with long ride comfort for pros, as opposed to enthusiasts, in mind.
> 
> BTW -- cache is not a driving factor for me. I just happen to think that the 3XM is a beautiful frame.
> 
> ...


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## Jorge (Sep 23, 2004)

Spunout said:


> I think you should get the most expensive bike you can find.


Thanks. That's very helpful.


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## Jorge (Sep 23, 2004)

Jorge said:


> Thanks. That's very helpful.


And it's quite clever, as well.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

Jorge said:


> AlexCad5 -- I'm interested in learning why you say that I have custom needs. I'm not challenging that view (I don't know enough about the custom option to challenge anyone's view on that issue). Rather, I'm simply interested in the reasoning behind it. Why, for example, would custom be a better option than a Colnago E-1 or the Merckx 3XM? From what I have read and seen, both of those frames seem to be built with long ride comfort in mind. Perhaps your point is that they were built with long ride comfort for pros, as opposed to enthusiasts, in mind.
> 
> BTW -- cache is not a driving factor for me. I just happen to think that the 3XM is a beautiful frame.
> 
> ...


 Because you are Tall and 225, you will need a stronger bike than I will need at 160. The designer of a stock frame can only predict standard weights and stresses of a mass audience. Alot of light high end bikes address this problem by having weight limitations. Others overbuild. They may have geometrey for stage racing, crit racing, one day racing. They will not be designed for a guy who wants to do centuries. Your needs will be different than a pro rider, and these can be addressed by the builder.
True, a custom Serrotta will not retain it's value like a non custom frame, simpily because it is custom to your body. ie,Top tube will fit perfectly, to you. 
Bike design is a subtle art, and really beyond my full understanding. 
Pick up a Seven catalog. Pretty impressive. And check out Moots.


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## 633 (Feb 10, 2004)

I'm curious why your LBS narrowed you down to those two frames. Are they the only high-end frames that they stock, or do they stock a lot of different lines? Have you actually been able to ride them, or are you just looking at the frames? What a disappointment it would be to spend that kind of coin and then not love the ride.

There are three shops near me that stock a lot of high-end bikes, so when I went looking last fall, I got to ride high-end CF, steel, aluminum, mixed-material and Ti bikes from Merckx, Merlin, Opera, Cannondale, Trek, Specialized, Cervelo and some others. Like you, I'm a big guy who had always ridden steel bikes. I was looking for something fast, but with all-day comfort. 

I had never ridden a Ti bike before, and hadn't really considered them, but when I stack-ranked the ones I had ridden, I found that the Ti bikes were all at the top of the list, and the Al/CF mixes right below (Opera Leonardo and the C'dale Six13). I'm still a little skeptical of mixed-material designs and how long they'll last, so now when I hear of a big guy looking for a fast, comfortable ride and going to spend the kind of money that means he'll need to keep it for years, I tell him he should at least take a look at high-end Ti: Seven, Moots, Merlin would all be ones I'd think about. I decided it really wasn't the best thing for me to do to drop $6K on a bike right then (could have, but would have rather used the money another way), so I bought an Airborne Zeppelin off eBay and have found it really fast and comfortable. When I feel like I can finally spend that $6K, it'll probably be a Moots. (Of course, I'm not sure how much better a ride I can get than the Airborne, so it'll probably be more a matter of paying for a higher bling factor than actually improving my ride, so maybe I'll end up buying my bling-bling Ti bike off eBay and also being able to add a high-end CF bike as well.)


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

Colnago E-1 or the Merckx 3XM? From what I have read and seen, both of those frames seem to be built with long ride comfort in mind.[/QUOTE]

Had to look at the competetivecyclist.com website. The E-1 is said to be a quite a bit stiffer frame than the c50hp. The C50 is more of a milage frame. In colnago, I'd be drawn to the masterXlite. Steel with carbon rear end. That's a milage frame, and will save you a little cash.
This is all crazy money to me, I can't even imagine buying such a bike. I'm here thinking a carbon Scott is a stretch $$$!


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

633 said:


> I'm curious why your LBS narrowed you down to those two frames


Profit margin.


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## Jorge (Sep 23, 2004)

AlexCad5 said:


> Colnago E-1 or the Merckx 3XM? From what I have read and seen, both of those frames seem to be built with long ride comfort in mind.


Had to look at the competetivecyclist.com website. The E-1 is said to be a quite a bit stiffer frame than the c50hp. The C50 is more of a milage frame. In colnago, I'd be drawn to the masterXlite. Steel with carbon rear end. That's a milage frame, and will save you a little cash.
This is all crazy money to me, I can't even imagine buying such a bike. I'm here thinking a carbon Scott is a stretch $$$![/QUOTE]

There is an interesting review of the E-1 on Pez Cycling's site. The review notes the stiffness that you mention, but suggests that the ride will be more compliant for bigger guys. 

I guess I'm interested in something other than a steel frame, as I already have one. 

Oh -- and in response to the question about what other frames/bikes the LBS carries, LeMond, Trek, Principia, Isaac and Orbea (if I recall correctly) come to mind.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

Why does it seem Independent Frabrication always take a back seat to Moots, Seven, ect, ect.....


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I think it's the name*



jtompilot said:


> Why does it seem Independent Frabrication always take a back seat to Moots, Seven, ect, ect.....



yummy rides though.

now the LBS sells Merckx, ask them about the Premium.


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## sanantonioascent (Mar 2, 2005)

Jorge said:


> Looking for sage advice on this one.
> 
> Recognizing that my abilities justify neither frame, I've decided (with my wife's blessing) to treat myself to a top-shelf frame this year. I'm 6 '2, 225 lbs. I am looking for a higher performance frame than what I currently am riding (boron steel Bianchi). LBS has me narrowed down to these two frames. My own view is that the Dogma is silly fast, but may beat me to death on long rides (which I favor). The Merckx is sexy and comfy, but not as quick.
> 
> ...





I like the colnago E1 alot. It's pretty stiff for your size but compliant enough for long rides. Add your stack height to the headtube length due to non integrated as previously stated. For what it's worth I have owned many high end bikes of carbon titanium aluminum and hybrids of all of them and I just sold my colnago ct1 to buy a pegoretti. I rode a marcello and it was the best bike I have ever ridden period.super smooth and strong and responsive. For yyour size the big leg emma would be worth looking at. Otherwise I would buy the E1 over the merckx and pinarello. Good luck.o pegoretti have big head tubes (tall)


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