# shimano 105 vs ultegra 6800



## elf (Apr 7, 2014)

PREFACE: I’m of the hills and get off by climbing them. That said; it would be nice to retain speeds on the open spaces. I do not have an exact bike picked out. I’m looking at aluminum bikes that are near ‘race ready’ (hella responsive). I would love to be specific about gearing other than the 105s I’m looking at are compact and have a slight variation for the cassette. There is the greater problem of changing to the 11th speed without buying the entire groupo (see <b>(2)</b> )

Three questions!:

<b>(0)</b> How cheap / where is the best way you can obtain aftermarket ultegra components? A 2013 article mentions the group set of ultegra is about 500usd more than 105 but can we go lower? (I assume they were talking about ultegra 6700 and not 6800) (though I kind of want 6800).


<b>(1)</b> Should I even bother with ultegra? There are some insightful words that kind of pains me but also is a nice reality check.



brucew said:


> Real world differences between groupset levels (outside of Marketingland) are weight, finish, bragging rights, and the rate at which they drain your wallet.


I ride with some glorious 2006 Sora bits and well, they are just dandy  I had tested enough 105 to know I will miss the feeling of ultegra 6800 and will get pissy about it. That said!: I do not actually have a race situation where I need it. Then again, I rid for pleasure and would like to not be on such cheap gears (even 105 feels sluggish next to ultegra).

I know 105 is a nice set and I’m not belittling it so much but I’m trying to work in the grey area here. Which would lead to the next question:

<b>(2)</b> If I’m looking at several 105 bikes (nothing but shimano 105), what would be the first things to replace to benefit from ultegra without buying the full set? Like I do not think I need ultegra brakes (even if that is the best difference between ultegra 6800 and 105).

I could and am considering a wheel improvement (which makes the most sense) but is there some way to retain the near silky qualities of ultegra without changing everything out?


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

For cost;
Groupsets by Shimano, Campagnolo and SRAM | Merlin Cycles

As for performance, the main difference between 105 and Ultegra (mechanical) is weight and looks. Operation is the same. If you care about either enough to pay more for the group, go ahead (just be honest with yourself as to why you're doing it). Di2 is a different matter. I've never tried electronic shifting, but told that it's lovely. I don't doubt that, but is it good enough to cough up $800+ more than 105? That's up to you again, but if not racing (or training for racing) then maybe not.

As far as going 11 speed, as of this year 105 is becoming 11 speed (mechanical) so you could (in theory anyway), mix and match to taste. Either level will give decades (not an exaggeration) of use with little or no hassle so pick whichever gives the biggest warm and fuzzy feeling and ride with a smile, both will do you proper.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

junior1210 said:


> As for performance, the main difference between 105 and Ultegra (mechanical) is weight and looks.


I agree. But just to split hairs about it....I do think the Ultegra crank is flat out 'better' and will last longer so if you're going to mix and match maybe crank is the one part to go higher end on. Although I should add my experience with 105 and Ultegra is previous generations and the Ultegra is a compact and the 105 is standard (no question my Ultegra shifts better but it could be due to a difference in compact v standard not it's being Ultegra). And I took better care of the Ultegra bike so maybe that's why I think Ultegra rings last longer. (In other words it's probably safe to ignore my opinion.)


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

If I understand correctly, you are in the market for a new bike. If you are debating between going 10 speed vs 11 speed then buy 11 speed now. It will be cheaper than buying a 10 speed bike then trying to convert it to 11 speed (unless you got a sweet deal on a 10 speed bike). As others have said, there is little difference between 10 speed ultegra and 10 speed 105.

My advice is to look at gearing charts and understand how gearing works. I run DA 10 speed with 50/34 compact with a 12-27 cassette for the hills where I live. I am looking for a reason to purchase 6800, but other than sweet shifting, there is no reason because I do not want or need the 11 tooth cog.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

elf said:


> <b>(1)</b> Should I even bother with ultegra? There are some insightful words that kind of pains me but also is a nice reality check.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bear in mind that the line of mine that you quoted was in response to someone asking if parts from different groups were "compatible" with each other. The poster was caught up in the "fear, uncertainty and doubt" (FUD) spread by Marketingland. The cycling industry learned this from the computer industry, and use FUD heavily to increase sales.

It's easy to take that comment to mean that those differences I listed are invalid reasons to upgrade. Well, perhaps not the wallet lightening one. But the rest are all perfectly valid reasons to move up to the higher group levels.

There are three reasons why I own a bike with full Dura-Ace: 


I wanted to see for myself if it performs any better under a typical cyclist (it doesn't), 
Ultegra 6700 looked greenish against the neutral gray bare Ti of my Litespeed. Dura-Ace is more neutral colored.
I wanted the bragging rights. Or at least the looks of approval.
Chances are that as long as I can afford it, my "best" club ride bike will be hung with Dura-Ace.

I've written in other threads that my Sora bike (3300 series from 2007) shifts just as nicely as my Dura-Ace bike. I distinctly remember writing that I never feel "less than" when riding the Sora bike. I meant it then and I still mean it. Right now, I'm taking a coffee and Internet break from upgrading my Sora bike to 105. (Only have to finish cabling, do final adjustments, and wrap the bars.) So why am I right now upgrading that bike to 105? Three reasons again:


The frame I bought last year and hung with the Sora group I think would look better with black components. I've never owned black components, so it's a bit of an experiment too.
The only thing I miss when riding the 8-speed group is the 18t cog. Chicago may have the reputation, but all the Great Lakes coastal cites are windy. Doing the 19-17 hunt in shifting and variable headwinds has gotten old.
Maintaining spare parts for several speed levels is a pain in the butt. I sold my 9-speed bike, and decided that when I wore out my supply of 8-speed chains and cassettes, that I'd go to 10-speed on that bike. Now I need to stock only one spare cassette instead of three.
So if you think you "will get pissy about it" if you go with 5700 instead of 6800, well, guess what? I also think that's a valid reason to go with 6800. 

And having owned 5700 levers, I couldn't wait to be rid to the damned things because they made shifting so hard, no matter what cables I tried. 1500 miles and it was "Hello Craigslist!". As an aside, I think the new SP-52 cable housing probably would have made a difference, but it hadn't been invented yet when I tried 5700. 

The one potential problem with premium housing is that, at least around here, not a single LBS stocks it. I bought a roll of the stuff online. 

Anyway, as long as you're being honest with yourself, and not simply responding to marketing, I think any reason to upgrade is a good reason.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Don't forget you'll likely need a new rear hub (wheel) when going from 10 speed to 11, in addition to new chain, cassette, shifters, and F&R derailleurs. 
Now, as mentioned above, the new variable is what will 5800 105 be like? Will it be similar to 6800, at a much lower price? 

If buying new, and you are set on saving $, maybe waiting a couple months is the way to go. Many of the lower priced 105 carbon bikes are already close to selling out for the 2014 run. They'll likely be bring in new 2015s by July if so.

I would not buy a new 10 speed bike if you *know* you want to upgrade it to 11 speed 6800 anyways. It would be cheaper to get it now, and save all the hassle. Unless you are talking about a screaming deal on used bike. 
Personally, I love the 5700 105 shifting, and have no plans to go to 11 speed for a good long time. But I do run a 6800 crank and brakes, both are sweet and play fine in 10 speed 105 land.


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## elf (Apr 7, 2014)

Z'mer said:


> Don't forget you'll likely need a new rear hub (wheel) when going from 10 speed to 11, in addition to new chain, cassette, shifters, and F&R derailleurs.
> Now, as mentioned above, the new variable is what will 5800 105 be like? Will it be similar to 6800, at a much lower price?
> 
> If buying new, and you are set on saving $, maybe waiting a couple months is the way to go. Many of the lower priced 105 carbon bikes are already close to selling out for the 2014 run. They'll likely be bring in new 2015s by July if so.
> ...


What do you mean by "it would be cheaper to get it now"? Are we talking about buying the 105 5700 or 5800?

Also does 825 usd seem a fair price for buying ultegra 6800? Is there much more of a deal than buying used?

Lastly, for 6800, should there be a problem with ordering an 11-28 cassette and using a 170mm crank?


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

elf said:


> What do you mean by "it would be cheaper to get it now"? Are we talking about buying the 105 5700 or 5800?
> 
> Also does 825 usd seem a fair price for buying ultegra 6800? Is there much more of a deal than buying used?
> 
> Lastly, for 6800, should there be a problem with ordering an 11-28 cassette and using a 170mm crank?


1) It's mostly (say 85%) cheaper to buy a bike with the components/group/speed you want than to buy a bike then upgrade it later. Therefore if you really want 11 speed, your least expensive options will to either wait for 5800 to debut or to buy Ultegra now. Buying either group (and a rear hub or whole wheel) is the more expensive way to go (unless you have a very expensive frame).

2) $825 is decent, but the site I provided is one of many it would be worth checking, including Texascyclesport.com, Wiggle, Ribble, as well as Amazon and Ebay. If you're willing to cough up for a group upgrade, why cheap out on it? Better to pay $75-100 more and have a warranty (not to mention protection from counterfeit parts).

3) Getting an 11-28 cassette and a 170mm crank is no problem...as long as they're in stock.


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## seven (Sep 14, 2006)

The major differences between 105, Ultegra, & Dura Ace are primarily weight and some performance improvements. The cost/performance ratio is the most noticeable thing, this applies to SRAM and Campagnolo as well; as the cost increases exponentially the performance increases are smaller with each step up in price.

For example,the most noticeable performance differences between 105 and Ultegra other than weight for the same level, (comparison applies to the 10 speed components), are the following:
Ultegra will shift to a lower gear while pedalling uphill without releasing pressure on the pedals to allow the rear derailleur to change cogs
Ultegra brake calipers/pads stop the bicycle faster with less effort
Ultegra cranks are stiffer, less spongy
The other performance differences are there but much more subtle.

In general the sweet price/performance point is Shimano Ultegra / SRAM Force / Campagnolo Chorus.

My advice, find a LBS that will let you test ride / rent the models you are interested in for a few hours. Check with the local bicycle clubs for information on which LBS treat their customers properly and have competent service departments. Yes there are differences between brands/models that matter, but a LBS that provides quality customer service, maintenance, and repair is more important.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

I have no problem shifting up or down, front or rear while climbing, or otherwise under poet with the 105 group. (FSA crank). There is a solid 'clank' as the rear changes gears but other then an equally quick notch felt in the pedals, I can power up a 12% grade standing on the pedals while shifting a few gears. 
As parts wear, I have been changing them out from 105 to Ultegra but the main reason is because the cost for the Ultegra parts are hardly more then the 105 ones. Chain and Cassette so far and I may grab an Ultegra crank and chainrings if I see a deal on the one I want.


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## seven (Sep 14, 2006)

The 10 speed 6700 components should be on clearance, once the supply is exhausted the price on the 11 speed 6800 components will go up.


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## seven (Sep 14, 2006)

Mr645 said:


> I have no problem shifting up or down, front or rear while climbing, or otherwise under poet with the 105 group. (FSA crank). There is a solid 'clank' as the rear changes gears but other then an equally quick notch felt in the pedals, I can power up a 12% grade standing on the pedals while shifting a few gears.
> As parts wear, I have been changing them out from 105 to Ultegra but the main reason is because the cost for the Ultegra parts are hardly more then the 105 ones. Chain and Cassette so far and I may grab an Ultegra crank and chainrings if I see a deal on the one I want.


A previous bicycle of my wife's had a 105 triple setup and the rear GS derailleur would not shift into the 28t cog under load, I replaced it with an Ultegra 6700 GS rear and that shifted into the 28t under load.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

This rookie moved up from a touring bike with Sora-Tiagra-bar end shifters and cantilever brakes to the new 6800 Ultegra on my road bike. WOW,, its’ like selling the Yugo and stepping into a 911. The 6800 brakes are simply incredible. These brakes work on the steepest down-hills and in the Burg that’s worth a ton. The shifting is smooth and precise and the finish and gray color is sweet.<o></o>
For my money, it is worth the price!! I almost bought SCRAM but the Ultegra’s ability to function properly with the 11/32 cassette sold me as there are only three flat acres in all of Pittsburgh.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

One thing that's rarely mentioned is that if you buy higher end parts, later it will cost you more when you have to replace them (ALL cassettes, chains, cables&housing will wear out regardless of price). If you use Ultegra then if you don't maintain with the same level, the performance of the whole group will suffer. Exceptions will include cassettes since some level of cassette won't have certain gears.

This shouldn't deter you from your chosen group, just to keep it in mind before you buy. Buying top level cables and housing would only cost @ $15-20 more than 'normal' but you should know that before buying, not getting the surprise when you go to replace next year.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

seven said:


> A previous bicycle of my wife's had a 105 triple setup and the rear GS derailleur would not shift into the 28t cog under load, I replaced it with an Ultegra 6700 GS rear and that shifted into the 28t under load.


Was it a 5700 GS RD? All other previous versions are only spec'd to 27T max. That could have been the problem, not going from 105->Ultegra


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## seven (Sep 14, 2006)

I stand corrected the bike came equipped with 27t rear, (2007 105 equipped Specialized Roubaix came stock with that combo), I donated it and the other 105 level components when the 6700 shipped and the 6600 went on clearance for about 40% to 50% off. According to Shimano's tech docs website the RD-6600-G was specified for 27t max as well.


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## nordy643 (Aug 3, 2012)

elf said:


> I’m of the hills and get off by climbing them. That said; it would be nice to retain speeds on the open spaces.
> 
> <b>(0)</b> How cheap / where is the best way you can obtain aftermarket ultegra components? (though I kind of want 6800).
> 
> ...


A couple things I would consider. I am in a similar situation - I prefer hilly rides but had concerns about having gears for flats and descents. I live in Northern California which has its share of hills both long/gradual and short/steep. I started out with a compact 50/34 and a 12/27 rear cassette and found that I have enough gearing for the steep sections of climbs (~25% pitches on some - had to out out of saddle but wasn't completely dying), however I found that on some descents I felt like I would run out of gearing. I made the switch to a 52/36 mid-compact which is also 110BCD so I didn't have to switch out my crankset (it was a one-piece with spider - FSA gossamer crank). I definitely noticed a change in the gearing availability. I don't spin out on the same descent where I was doing so. I also found that 36/27 still provided an easy enough gear to spin up those same steep pitches so it was a nice middle-ground. I also have a nice time spinning in both the 36 and 52 on flats between 18-23mph without issue and can get it up to around 30mph within those gears (fyi I am 5'7 and ~165lbs).

As to your questions:
0 - you can find Ultegra 6800 groupsets online through eBay (actually through a company called PlanetCyclery for around 800 dollars which I think is a bang of deal for the entire groupset.

1 - I would say yes for the following reasons: you "kind-of" want 6800 and you think you will get pissy if you don't get it. What will end up happening probably if you don't get Ultegra is that you will be thinking about 6800 and maybe eventually doing the conversion anyway. Why not just save the time/money and change now?

That being said, I have ridden my CAAD10 with 105 components for 6,000 miles over 3 years and I think it's a great groupset. 105 is a great set of components and have been very happy with them in the time that I have had them. In terms of performance, I don't think there is a significant difference between a well-tuned 105 group and well-tuned Ultegra group. There may be some ergonomic differences in the shifters and maybe a slightly shorter throw for shifts, but the shift itself will be hard to differentiate. The weight difference between Ultegra 6800 and 105 5700 is around 0.4lbs w/o crank/bb and 0.75lbs with crank/bb included (you can make up those differences in your own weight loss ). I think where you may see a difference is crank stiffness and potentially on front chainring shifting under heavy loads between 105 and Ultegra. I changed from an FSA Gossamer crank to a Cannondale Hollowgram Si crank and, although it is small, it definitely feels much stiffer under power. If you want to save on the groupset and allow money to budget for other upgrades I would recommend doing the 105 and upgrading your wheels. Most of the stock alloy bikes with 105 have a very heavy set of wheels and you can find a solid set of wheels up to 800 dollars that would have an impact on ride quality/performance. 

That also being said, I think it might be worth your while to do the 11-speed over the 10-speed given that 105/Ultegra/DA are all 11-speed for the next round of production. If you absolutely had to budget between Ultegra and 105 5800 components (assuming they're compatible), I would do the following:
Shifters: Ult
FD: Ult
RD: Ult
Crankset/chainrings: Ult
Cassette: 105 5800 (assuming compatible with Ultegra 6800 groupset parts)
Brakes: Ult (this depends on the 5800 brakes quality which I don't have been tested). If the performance is marginally better, this is somewhere where I would not skimp.
Chain: Ult


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

I'll second the recommendation of merlin cycles. I just got an Ultegra 6700 group set from them and the shipment was here in less than a week. I would have gone wit 6800, except a new wheelset wasn't in the budget. I figure the next bike will be 11 speed anyway.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Personally, I cannot tell the difference in the shifting between Tiagra, 105 and Ultegra. IMO, the biggest difference is weight and cost. Also keep in mind that as you go "up the ladder" so to say, the weight difference is less but the cost difference is MORE.

I also would stick with a 10-speed as there aren't very many different cassette options yet for an 11-speed if you want to change it out.

If you are going to go whole hog on something, I would make it your wheelset. The Shimano Ultegra 6800 wheelset got very good reviews.


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## mtrac (Sep 23, 2013)

brucew said:


> The frame I bought last year and hung with the Sora group I think would look better with black components. I've never owned black components, so it's a bit of an experiment too.


The black finish on my 5700 isn't wearing particularly well.


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