# I Rode EPS !!!!



## flatlander_48

Let me preface what I am going to say with the following disclaimer:
I am in no way involved in the bike industry. My employer is not involved in the bike industry. I am not affiliated with any publication related to the bike industry; either directly or on a freelance basis. I am just a rider.

In this past week the Taichung Bike Week event was held. It is a trade show intended for bicycle product managers and component manufacturers. In theory, it is not open to retailers or the general public.

Later today I will post some photos of what I am about to describe...

The first photo will be of a Pinarello Dogma 2. It is a full carbon monocoque frame and fork. The frame weighs 920 grams in a 54 centimeter size and is a pro level racing bike as used by the Movistar team from Spain (I think) and others. A bit out of my price range as I think the F & F go for around $6000US. However, it has been disguised with a lot of Campagnolo signage as Campagnolo is using it to showcase their newly introduced electronic shifting system: EPS (Electronic Power Shift). While similar in function to the Shimano Di2 electronic systems, there are differences related to motor technology, packaging, etc. Campagnolo has been working on this system for many years and formally introduced it at the beginning of November at a private event in Sicily for the international cycling press. This week, at the Taichung Bike Week event, they made their Taiwan introduction. The 2 versions of the EPS system, Super Record and Record are scheduled to go on sale this Spring.

BUT, the significance of the 2 photos below is that *I SPENT 45 MINUTES ON THIS BIKE FRIDAY MORNING!!!!!* I will not go into detail as to how this came about, but rest assured that prevarication, chicanery and treachery were involved...

So, my very short review:
I liked it, but I wasn’t blown away by it. I think the reason is that it is less obtrusive than you might think. Campagnolo mechanical shifts are done by a lever behind the brake lever and thumb-activated lever inside of the hoods. EPS follows the same methods, except the motion has less travel and requires much less force. There is an indicator light that shows the battery charge level on demand. The implementation is a bit strage to me. It is a separate small housing that, in this case, was mounted on the stem. Don't know what they couldn't have built the light into a hood or on the battery and electronics module. By the way, everything is in this module. The only things external are the switches in the shifters and the motors in the derailleurs. They chose not to separate the battery from the electronics as Shimano did. At this point it is unclear if there is a preference of one over the other. The shift noise from the chain movement is about the same as you would expect, but it is preceded by the sound of motor whine. Even slight road noise from passing traffic can totally mask this sound as it isn't very loud. So, I think this is why I wasn’t blown away by it. It just goes about the business of implementing your shift commands in a fairly quiet manner. When you have a bike that fits you like a glove, you concentrate on just riding as there is nothing that is causing an irritation. EPS is similar in that it sort of fades into the background and lets you focus on why you’re riding in the first place.
Would I buy one? Hard to say as it depends upon how the pricing turns out. I would expect that it would be in the neighborhood of the Shimano systems, albeit probably a bit higher. But, nothing has been announced so far.

There was one this that was a bit disappointing. As noted below, I ride a Ritchey BreakAway. For an electronic system (any, in this case), it means that you have wires spanning where the frame comes apart. As you can imagine, the electronic systems are designed to minimize the number of connections to prevent dirt and water getting into where it shouldn't. As designed, it appears that you can only decouple things at the derailleur. And, the connectors aren't really designed to be assembled, disassembled, assembled, etc. Also, the preferred wiring method is internal routing which obviously doesn't work for bikes with separable frames. The guy who owns the shop that I frequent here in Taichung figured the only way to work this out for the Di2 system would be to cut the wire and add a connector. EPS would seem to require the same modification.

On balance VERY Cool, though. VERY Cool…

By the way, I forgot to mention a few things. They are not planning an ErgoBrain that is compatible with EPS. You could use the previous one (which I think is out of production now) but the gear indicator will not work. Funny to me because it would be a lot simpler than before to get that information from the system. Before you had to insert little switches under the shift levers. Now it would seem very easy to just count up and down in the electronics.

What hasn't been mentioned anywhere that I know about:

There will be an Athena EPS version for the 2013 model year. Looking at their information, the battery/computer module has the same weight as the Super Record and Record units so I assume they are the same parts. The overall weights for the groups are (including brakes, cassettes, etc.):

Super Record = 2098g
Record = 2184g
Athena = 2452g

Also, there is a new crank model for the 11sp system with 52/36 gearing. While this isn't EPS-specific, there are models across all 4 groups.


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## orange_julius

Wow, awesome that you had a chance to try EPS! Thank for sharing your experience, looking forward to the pictures. So, would you be buying it at all, or are you disappointed by its lack of support for a BreakAway type of frame?


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## flatlander_48

Yes, the separable deal is a problem. I'm sure there are compact MIL-spec connectors that could be used with no worries about water or dirt problems. However, what do you want to bet that it would void the warranty? Right now I wouldn't consider this a deal-breaker, but it does make it uphill.

Also, I have to say that this was not an easy deal. It helped that I had planned to ride to work on Friday, but my appointment was for 6am. I was up at 4:45am just to make sure that I was ready to go.

If you read the Bicycling article about Campagnolo, they said that the marketing staff in the US was only 5 people. I met 3 of the 5 who were present for Bike Week. I guess the other 2 were back in the US minding the store. Somehow I would have to guess that Shimano folks would not be as accomodating to someone who wasn't in the business, but just had a strong desire to see what they had done, up close and personal. At any rate, it was a great bunch of folks to talk to. And, They RIDE.

Photos coming later this morning (for me)...


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## flatlander_48

*What:*



















*Where:*










* Who (appropriately attired):*


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## Cinelli 82220

*Athena EPS?!*

That's the scoop of the day!

Campagnolo may be trying to crack the OEM market. It'll get more people onto Campy.










Oooohhhh....


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## flatlander_48

You know, if I had just read the brochure FIRST (all 63 pages!?!?) from here:










In addition, in 2013 Campagnolo will have what may be the first 11sp triple. It will come as a 52/39/30 with medium and long cage models. The long cage will allow you to use the 12-29 cassette. My _guess_ is that you might be able to do an Athena EPS triple. If the EPS systems are like the mechanical systems, I did not have to change my 2005 Centaur shifters when going from a double to a triple.


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## flatlander_48

Cinelli 82220 said:


> That's the scoop of the day!
> 
> Campagnolo may be trying to crack the OEM market. It'll get more people onto Campy.
> 
> Oooohhhh....


Yes, that may explain why (at least at this point) they skipped Chorus and it could really put a bit of pressure on Shimano...


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## Mapei

Cool. Great report. It actually sounds like a very nice, well-worked out system.


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## flatlander_48

Mapei said:


> Cool. Great report. It actually sounds like a very nice, well-worked out system.


Thanks!

As has been noted elsewhere, Campagnolo has been working on this for a long time. The only thing that really seemed odd to me was how they implemented the status indicator light. I'd really like to find out what the thought process was there.

These days, everyone has access to CAD, Finite Element Analysis and Computation Fluid Dynamics software. But, for some reason, the Italians seem to be able to consistently balance Form and Function very, very well. For Campagnolo, that, coupled with maintaining their traditions and the relentless pursuit of performance and quality will solidify their future; I hope...


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## RussellS

flatlander_48 said:


> My _guess_ is that you might be able to do an Athena EPS triple. If the EPS systems are like the mechanical systems, I did not have to change my 2005 Centaur shifters when going from a double to a triple.


No. Electronic will not work with triple. Neither Shimano or Campagnolo electronic systems will work with a triple crankset. With Di2, the front shifter shifts the chain all the way from the inner to the outer ring in one movement. Or the outer to the inner in one movement. It covers the entire range of the front derailleur with one button click. With a triple crankset, you need a way to stop in the middle ring when shifting either up or down. You would need to shift half way from the inner to the middle. Then the other half from the middle to the outer. The current electronic shifters designed for a double can't do this. Its possible Shimano or Campagnolo could program their electronic shifters to make two shifts up or two shifts down. That would get you from the outer to the middle and then to the inner. Or the inner to the middle and then to the outer. You need to program the electronic front derailleur to shift twice in both directions to cover all three rings. Right now it shifts once in each direction to go between the two rings of a double crankset.


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## flatlander_48

True, that is not how the devices currently function. But, the control logic for the front derailleur would be more like the logic for the rear where you can take one or multiple steps in either direction. Across the rear, one click is one gear. That's what you would need in the front.

Anyway, the fact that there will be an Athena EPS system and an 11sp Athena triple does beg the question...


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## kbwh

Thanks. Rep added.


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## Sven_Nijs

I'm really disappointed there won't be Chorus EPS for MY2013. It's like Shimano taking Di2 from DA to 105 and missing out Ultegra. Very strange.
I'd be willing to wait one 'release year' for Chorus but certainly not two.


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## Dajianshan

Flatlander_48

Nice report. 

Next time you can roll that past the Early Bird so I can get a closer look at it.


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## flatlander_48

Oh, now we're taking requests?!?!?!

Seriously though, that was one nice set up. I rode on some of the same streets in the Tiger City area I use when I ride to work. The Dogma 2 definitely smoothed things out more than my steel frame. The price of around $6000US sort of puts it up in rarefied atmosphere, however.

I really hope this becomes a successful product line for Campagnolo. They have put a lot of effort into it and it would be great to see them rewarded appropriately. They have remained true to their heritage of avoiding the mass market and focusing on top notch, high performance and aesthically pleasing hardware. It's rare these days to find a business that doesn't try to be everything to everybody. They are in the business because they love the business. To me, that is something to be admired and supported. It may also be something that separates cyclists from bike riders...


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## Dajianshan

I agree. The difference between Shimano and Campy is like the difference between McDonalds and In n' Out Burger (that is a California chain if mid-westerners don't know). Mcdonalds offer something for everyone, but they have to make lots of sacrifices. In n' Out... they sell hamburgers, cheeseburgers and the In n Out Burger. Not a big menu... but it is far better. They keep it simple. 

I love how Campy feels in every way. I just hope that tactile response transfers to the EPS. My Chorus 11 feels like it is sitting on the cusp of switching gears all the time and I just add a slight pressure to let it fire. It is like pulling the trigger of a pistol. Shimano transfers none of that. It is just the same squishy feeling. I am afraid the electronic shifting would take away that all or nothing feedback that Campy does so well. I hope it keeps some of the Campy soul.


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## flatlander_48

Dajianshan said:


> I agree. The difference between Shimano and Campy is like the difference between McDonalds and In n' Out Burger (that is a California chain if mid-westerners don't know). Mcdonalds offer something for everyone, but they have to make lots of sacrifices. In n' Out... they sell hamburgers, cheeseburgers and the In n Out Burger. Not a big menu... but it is far better. They keep it simple.


I'm familiar with In n Out, but I've never been to one. Major motorsports fan, which includes drag racing, and In n Out was a big sponsor for a while. They may still be, but I've been here.



Dajianshan said:


> I love how Campy feels in every way. I just hope that tactile response transfers to the EPS. My Chorus 11 feels like it is sitting on the cusp of switching gears all the time and I just add a slight pressure to let it fire. It is like pulling the trigger of a pistol. Shimano transfers none of that. It is just the same squishy feeling. I am afraid the electronic shifting would take away that all or nothing feedback that Campy does so well. I hope it keeps some of the Campy soul.


I understand what you mean, but I confess that I don't have that expectation for EPS. While I appreciate those qualities in the manual system, it isn't necessary for me to have it in the electronic system. That said, the Campagnolo people have tried to make sure that there is sufficient feedback in the movement of the levers. I think they have been fairly successful, but perhaps I should recuse myself.


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## kbwh

Sven_Nijs said:


> I'm really disappointed there won't be Chorus EPS for MY2013. It's like Shimano taking Di2 from DA to 105 and missing out Ultegra. Very strange.
> I'd be willing to wait one 'release year' for Chorus but certainly not two.


Record EPS has some typical Chorus bits, like brake levers without holes and a metal FD outer plate. 
I do not understand why, but skipping Chorus EPS and going to directly to Athena EPS can explain it. Is there perhaps a phasing out of the entire Chorus gruppo in the works?


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## orange_julius

kbwh said:


> Record EPS has some typical Chorus bits, like brake levers without holes and a metal FD outer plate.
> I do not understand why, but skipping Chorus EPS and going to directly to Athena EPS can explain it. Is there perhaps a phasing out of the entire Chorus gruppo in the works?


Wasn't there a discussion about this (or rather, speculation) on this board recently? My guess is that they'll have an Ultra-Shift level EPS for SR/R/C, and Power-Shift level EPS for C/A. 

Well, that sounds like a reasonable approach anyway!


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## kbwh

Me being myself would have difficulties accepting a price premium for software differences, that's for sure.


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## LePatron

I'm not sure if this was covered somewhere else but I haven't heard any mention of some sort of I/O port that could be used to update or otherwise modify the programming. Obviously there will be a bunch of changes and updates in response to user feedback and other developments. It would be reassuring to know that the initial buyers of EPS will not be stuck with the BETA version.


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## Bostic

> In addition, in 2013 Campagnolo will have what may be the first 11sp triple. It will come as a 52/39/30 with medium and long cage models. The long cage will allow you to use the 12-29 cassette. My _guess_ is that you might be able to do an Athena EPS triple. If the EPS systems are like the mechanical systems, I did not have to change my 2005 Centaur shifters when going from a double to a triple.


Any additional specs listed for the triple? Power Torque, Ultra Torque, Carbon or Alloy?


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## 55x11

orange_julius said:


> Wow, awesome that you had a chance to try EPS! Thank for sharing your experience, looking forward to the pictures. So, would you be buying it at all, or are you disappointed by its lack of support for a BreakAway type of frame?


bummer about breakaway, even though a connector may not be such a big deal (just like brake cables)


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## flatlander_48

Bostic said:


> Any additional specs listed for the triple? Power Torque, Ultra Torque, Carbon or Alloy?


I'll check the brochure again, but it will be a while. I'm about 2 hours into my workday and the brochure is at home...


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## flatlander_48

kbwh said:


> Record EPS has some typical Chorus bits, like brake levers without holes and a metal FD outer plate.
> I do not understand why, but skipping Chorus EPS and going to directly to Athena EPS can explain it. *Is there perhaps a phasing out of the entire Chorus gruppo in the works?*


It is curious when you consider the weights of the 3 EPS groups. There's not much difference in weight between SuperRecord and Record, but a big jump to Athena. There's plenty of space for a Chorus EPS system to silp in there. My guess is that Campagnolo felt it would have more effect in the marketplace if they had a low end EPS system rather than a mid-range. Perhaps they will do a Chorus EPS the year after Athena EPS.


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## flatlander_48

LePatron said:


> I'm not sure if this was covered somewhere else but I haven't heard any mention of some sort of I/O port that could be used to update or otherwise modify the programming. Obviously there will be a bunch of changes and updates in response to user feedback and other developments. It would be reassuring to know that the initial buyers of EPS will not be stuck with the BETA version.


The ability to modify the programming of the computer module has not been mentioned in any of the material that I've read. The Campagnolo guys didn't mention it and it wasn't in the brochure. No clue as to what the situation is...


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## flatlander_48

55x11 said:


> bummer about breakaway, even though a connector may not be such a big deal (just like brake cables)


I did take about that specifically with one of the Campagnolo guys. That was what led to the discussion on how the EPS connectors are designed. However, warranty issues could be a problem. Similarly, I wonder if you modify Di2 with their programming unit what the effect is on your warranty is? It wouldn't surprise me that any non-standard configuration voids the warranty.


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## Doctor Falsetti

flatlander_48 said:


> Also, there is a new crank model for the 11sp system with 52/36 gearing. While this isn't EPS-specific, there are models across all 4 groups.


Great report, thanks!

Do you know if this will be 135 BCD?


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## flatlander_48

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Great report, thanks!
> 
> Do you know if this will be 135 BCD?


I don't think the brochure had that information, but I can check when I go home.


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## flatlander_48

Bostic said:


> Any additional specs listed for the triple? Power Torque, Ultra Torque, Carbon or Alloy?


There isn't a lot of information. What it says is:

Chainring - 30/39/52
Crank Length - 170, 172.5, 175
Tech - Power Torque
Weight - 900

Colors are Deep Black or Bright Silver

It appears to be Alloy as there is no mention of carbon, nor is any sort of weave visible.


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## flatlander_48

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Great report, thanks!
> 
> Do you know if this will be 135 BCD?


Sorry, there's no mention of the Bolt Circle...


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## Bostic

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Great report, thanks!
> 
> Do you know if this will be 135 BCD?


52/36 has to be 110 or the Campy specific 110 since 39 is the smallest that will fit on a 135 BCD.


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## ultimobici

Had an opportunity to play with EPS yesterday in work. I think DI2 may have found it's match and then some.


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## orange_julius

ultimobici said:


> Had an opportunity to play with EPS yesterday in work. I think DI2 may have found it's match and then some.



Awesome!!!! :-O

Did you build the bike, what are your impressions? Does it require special frame design beyond Di2? What about retro-fitting non-Di2 frames?


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## campagnoloneutron

Thank you for taking the time to write up a report of your impressions and observations on the Campagnolo EPS ride... also the photos. That was a cool opportunity, glad you could take advantage of it. It looks like you really enjoyed yourself.


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## masi85

Brilliant report! Were barely into 2012 and already we know some details about 2013 - thanks alot! I wonder if the Athena EPS thumb shifter will only shift one gear at a time - I guess this might save money for Campy.


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## ejprez

Mech Athena uses chours cassette. Couldn't a EPS chorus be fashioned from a mixing the mech chorus crank, brakes and cassette with either the Record EPS or Athena EPS depending which way you want to go with the overall weight. I noticed Jamis Ultegra Di2 using just the shifters and derailleurs but has 105 for everything else accordind to the spec sheet. I would think Campy would so something along those lines to make a Chorus group for EPS which would make about the same weight difference from SR to R EPS groups.


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## kbwh

You could of course also put Athena cranks and brake calipers together with SR EPS and it would work flawlessly.



masi85 said:


> I wonder if the Athena EPS thumb shifter will only shift one gear at a time - I guess this might save money for Campy.


That multiple shift functionality is all in the brains. Taking away lines of code to sell stuff at a lower price point seems like a very bad idea to me.

If I were deciding at Campagnolo I'd make Athena the "shiny" full functionality 11 speed group, with the Athena EPS as "aluminium" as possible. 
I'm envisioning a Di2/EPS specific Colnago Master with the battery/brains unit under the seat, shiny cranks, rd and levers. Maybe just a mirage, this, but oooh!


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## flatlander_48

orange_julius said:


> Awesome!!!! :-O
> 
> Did you build the bike, what are your impressions? *Does it require special frame design beyond Di2?* What about retro-fitting non-Di2 frames?


Leonard Zinn, in his article in Velo News, said that EPS uses the internal arrangement as Di2...


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## flatlander_48

kbwh said:


> You could of course also put Athena cranks and brake calipers together with SR EPS and it would work flawlessly.
> 
> 
> * That multiple shift functionality is all in the brains. Taking away lines of code to sell stuff at a lower price point seems like a very bad idea to me.*
> 
> If I were deciding at Campagnolo I'd make Athena the "shiny" full functionality 11 speed group, with the Athena EPS as "aluminium" as possible.
> I'm envisioning a Di2/EPS specific Colnago Master with the battery/brains unit under the seat, shiny cranks, rd and levers. Maybe just a mirage, this, but oooh!


Unless you disassembled the shifters, how would you know?


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## flatlander_48

masi85 said:


> Brilliant report! Were barely into 2012 and already we know some details about 2013 - thanks alot! I wonder if the Athena EPS thumb shifter will only shift one gear at a time - I guess this might save money for Campy.


Marketing is a tricky game. I would image it takes a lot of thought to how you differentiate one group level from another. The differences need to be pretty clear and translate to a reasonable difference in retail price. Profitability also enters into the equation...


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## kbwh

flatlander_48 said:


> Unless you disassembled the shifters, how would you know?


The way I understand the system each lever is actuating a switch . As long as you're keeping pressure on the lever it's in active state, and the rest is handled by the DTI firmware.

A Powershift-like function from the Ergopower lever itself would need a switch that was actually a trigger, i.e. closing by itself no matter for how long it's pressed. That would be more expensive.
What Campagnolo could do to save costs is to ditch the expensive switch type (power dome?) with feel for something more akin to the dumb Di2 type that has almost no feedback. 
I think that would be a move akin to Powershift: Worse ergonomics compared to the top of the line stuff. In my opinion a bad idea.


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## flatlander_48

However, I was told by the Campagnolo guys that the tactile sensation was specifically designed in (travel, choice of switches, force required, etc.). There is the expectation in the marketplace that there is a different feel to how Campagnolo stuff works and they wanted to retain as much of that as they could.


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## ultimobici

orange_julius said:


> Awesome!!!! :-O
> 
> Did you build the bike, what are your impressions? Does it require special frame design beyond Di2? What about retro-fitting non-Di2 frames?


It was training for the mechanics in advance of the physical launch to OE.

Apparently, initially it will only be available as a full group set. Gear only upgrades will be later in the year due to the small production run. All production is in house at Vicenza so limited to less than 50 a day.

As far as the internal cabling side is concerned, EPS uses the same porting as Di2. One under the battery, one at the top of the down tube, one below the front mech & one at the rear mech. They include a magnetic tool to help fishing the cable through the stays etc.

Battery mount can be below the main bottle cage, under the bb or on a dedicated mount integrated under the down tube. Also there is a seat mount and extension cable set which is used for frames over 62cm.

The interesting thing is that all the diagnostics are integrated into the system unlike Di2 which requires a separate kit that costs £250. Also the system has a feature to trim the shifting in the event of a wheel change to a wheel that has a slight difference on the freehub. I have DT Swiss & Campagnolo Record hubbed wheels which are a hair different resulting in indexing being out on one wheel. This can be trimmed out on the fly.

The Ride Home feature is brilliant. If you forget to charge the battery and run out of juice you simply full the mech to the desired gear and ride home!

But the biggest bonus over Di2 is the feel at the lever. Di2 has less movement than a computer keyboard whereas EPS is more like the paddle-shifters in a car with a noticeable action but less effort than regular Ergopower.

Its front shifting is brilliant compared to any cable system as one would expect. It tailors the shift according to the position on the cassette. So if you're in the smaller sprockets it has a less forceful shift compared to if you were in the largest ones. In the latter case it over shifts then backs off to stop rub on the cage, but in the smaller cogs it's not necessary.

I've been on Sram Red, Dura Ace & 11 Speed Campag in the last couple of years and my impressions of Di2 didn't have me wondering about how to go electric. This does.


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## flatlander_48

ultimobici said:


> The interesting thing is that all the diagnostics are integrated into the system unlike Di2 which requires a separate kit that costs £250. Also the system has a feature to trim the shifting in the event of a wheel change to a wheel that has a slight difference on the freehub. I have DT Swiss & Campagnolo Record hubbed wheels which are a hair different resulting in indexing being out on one wheel. This can be trimmed out on the fly.


The brochure has no mention of any hardware or software that could be used to connect a computer to the EPS system. Was there any mention of that? I confess that I didn't ask all of the questions that might have come to mind as we were trying to sort out getting a bike for me to ride. Anyway, this might suggest that EPS will not be user programmable.



ultimobici said:


> The Ride Home feature is brilliant. If you forget to charge the battery and run out of juice you simply full the mech to the desired gear and ride home!


Leonard Zinn mentioned this in his ride review. Evidently one of the other journalists had to make use of the feature. Clear advantage over Shimano!


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## ultimobici

flatlander_48 said:


> The brochure has no mention of any hardware or software that could be used to connect a computer to the EPS system. Was there any mention of that? I confess that I didn't ask all of the questions that might have come to mind as we were trying to sort out getting a bike for me to ride. Anyway, this might suggest that EPS will not be user programmable.


No, that's just the point. Campagnolo have integrated the diagnostics into the system. Shimano have a plug in tool that is an extra.

There's a video of the design team leader showing it off.

Campagnolo EPS in detail - YouTube


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## flatlander_48

ultimobici said:


> No, that's just the point. Campagnolo have integrated the diagnostics into the system. Shimano have a plug in tool that is an extra.
> 
> There's a video of the design team leader showing it off.
> 
> Campagnolo EPS in detail - YouTube


Not just the diagnostics. I thought that people who have altered the function of Di2 have done so through the SM-EC79 unit. If that is the case, Campagnolo does not seem to have an equivalent. That would suggest that they do not intend for customers to make any changes.


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## orange_julius

ultimobici said:


> It was training for the mechanics in advance of the physical launch to OE.
> 
> Apparently, initially it will only be available as a full group set. Gear only upgrades will be later in the year due to the small production run. All production is in house at Vicenza so limited to less than 50 a day.
> 
> As far as the internal cabling side is concerned, EPS uses the same porting as Di2. One under the battery, one at the top of the down tube, one below the front mech & one at the rear mech. They include a magnetic tool to help fishing the cable through the stays etc.
> 
> Battery mount can be below the main bottle cage, under the bb or on a dedicated mount integrated under the down tube. Also there is a seat mount and extension cable set which is used for frames over 62cm.
> 
> The interesting thing is that all the diagnostics are integrated into the system unlike Di2 which requires a separate kit that costs £250. Also the system has a feature to trim the shifting in the event of a wheel change to a wheel that has a slight difference on the freehub. I have DT Swiss & Campagnolo Record hubbed wheels which are a hair different resulting in indexing being out on one wheel. This can be trimmed out on the fly.
> 
> The Ride Home feature is brilliant. If you forget to charge the battery and run out of juice you simply full the mech to the desired gear and ride home!
> 
> But the biggest bonus over Di2 is the feel at the lever. Di2 has less movement than a computer keyboard whereas EPS is more like the paddle-shifters in a car with a noticeable action but less effort than regular Ergopower.
> 
> Its front shifting is brilliant compared to any cable system as one would expect. It tailors the shift according to the position on the cassette. So if you're in the smaller sprockets it has a less forceful shift compared to if you were in the largest ones. In the latter case it over shifts then backs off to stop rub on the cage, but in the smaller cogs it's not necessary.
> 
> I've been on Sram Red, Dura Ace & 11 Speed Campag in the last couple of years and my impressions of Di2 didn't have me wondering about how to go electric. This does.


Thanks for sharing the impressions! I agree with you that preserving that Campag feel is a big bonus, it's one of the things I like about Campag above all others. 

The adjust-on-the-fly feature is also nice. I wonder if Campag will allow an open access to their firmware, or if some hackers will figure this out. As a technology development geek, an exciting aspect to this electronic shifting is that there is now a computer - even if very simple - and a means for electronically controlling the drivetrain. I'm sure DIY gearheads will take advantage of the facility. 

Also, great to hear that the Di2 frame standard is basically the same as what EPS can use. I was fearful for some time that Campag will force a different standard on the market.


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## kbwh

I'm sure there is a component- and frame maker forum agreeing on such things. Horrendous: Representatives from SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo at the same table!


----------



## ultimobici

kbwh said:


> I'm sure there is a component- and frame maker forum agreeing on such things. Horrendous: Representatives from SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo at the same table!


Nah, Sram may run and skip along in Shimano's wake but Campag go their own way.


----------



## flatlander_48

Interesting thing...

The EPS web page is finally up, as posted by kbwh. The Athena EPS system is not listed, so that seems to confirm that the it will be a 2013 product...


----------



## ultimobici

flatlander_48 said:


> Interesting thing...
> 
> The EPS web page is finally up, as posted by kbwh. The Athena EPS system is not listed, so that seems to confirm that the it will be a 2013 product...


Why would you expect anything else. No where has Campag mentioned anything about expanding the range. They haven't even shipped the first groups as it is barely past the stage where Record & Super Record EPS can be ordered. The only source for the Athena EPS news seems to be you.


----------



## flatlander_48

ultimobici said:


> Why would you expect anything else. No where has Campag mentioned anything about expanding the range. They haven't even shipped the first groups as it is barely past the stage where Record & Super Record EPS can be ordered. The only source for the Athena EPS news seems to be you.


 
*In Here:*










*Is This:*










*And This:*










*And This:*










*And This:*










*So, what is your interpretation?*


----------



## kbwh

Nicely returned, flat. And thanks for those faximiles.


----------



## flatlander_48

kbwh said:


> Nicely returned, flat. And thanks for those faximiles.


Well, sometimes you just have to swat your puppies with a rolled newspaper. It's harmless, but it makes the point...


----------



## ultimobici

flatlander_48 said:


> Well, sometimes you just have to swat your puppies with a rolled newspaper. It's harmless, but it makes the point...


I was merely pointing out that it wasn't on the website for the very reason that it's intended to be a 2013 product.

I just find it hilarious that there is discussion of a product that is derived from product that has yet to even get into any store for sale and won't until january or february at the earliest if Campag break the habit of a lifetime and deliver on time.

But in any case, thank you for posting the scans of the catalogue. It's already got people on WW in a tizzy over the imminent demise of Chorus!


----------



## flatlander_48

The problem was that the brochure had no dates, save for what was on the cover. I had guessed that Athena EPS was scheduled for later, but the fact that it wasn't on the web page seemed to confirm it.

I don't know about delivering on time, but the systems are being produced. I saw somewhere that the production rate is 50 groups a day. No word as to how it is split between SuperRecord and Record.

I don't know about Chorus, but Campagnolo does have the habit of dropping a name/line and resurrecting it later. So, I guess we'll see what happens...


----------



## ultimobici

flatlander_48 said:


> The problem was that the brochure had no dates, save for what was on the cover. I had guessed that Athena EPS was scheduled for later, but the fact that it wasn't on the web page seemed to confirm it.
> 
> I don't know about delivering on time, but the systems are being produced. I saw somewhere that the production rate is 50 groups a day. No word as to how it is split between SuperRecord and Record.
> 
> I don't know about Chorus, but Campagnolo does have the habit of dropping a name/line and resurrecting it later. So, I guess we'll see what happens...


Campagnolo are indeed running at the rate of 50 a day. As a result they're talking about a requirement that the first OE customers will have to take full groupsets and not split them.

As for delivery, they may be knocking out 50 a day, but one has to bear in mind that there are several teams that will be on EPS who have to be supplied first. Movistar, Lampre, Quickstep etc will all take more than a day's production each. Then there's the OE customers, and then aftermarket. I don't think you'll see it on shelves in shops for several months. Just look at Shimano's problems supplying Ultegra Di2.


----------



## flatlander_48

Agreed.

The Campagnolo guys said "Spring" when I asked, but it didn't make a lot of difference for me. I need to wait for the dust to settle after upgrading to Chorus.


----------



## ultimobici

flatlander_48 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The Campagnolo guys said "Spring" when I asked, but it didn't make a lot of difference for me. I need to wait for the dust to settle after upgrading to Chorus.


Once the dust has settled Campagnolo will have ironed out any glitches, if there are any, and also someone will have had the balls to chop open the battery/brain & figured out how to hide it in the frame!


----------



## flatlander_48

Actually, the "dust settling" is related to my bank account after going to Chorus! Need to wait for a while until those ripples fade away.

Shimano has an interface unit which is what you connect to do the diagnostics. I suspect that it is also how people connect to the system to hack into it. Campagnolo talks about how their diagnostics are included in the control module. They have not listed or mentioned anything about an interface unit.

SoapBox Time:
Shimano folks like to point out that the 11sp Campagnolo Chain Tool sells for around $300. However, the SM-EC79 System Checker/Programmer Unit for Di2 systems is more expensive than that. cbike.com in Chicago has it listed for $379.99...


----------



## mriddle

*Great Post!*

Mr. Flatlander,

Much appreciated, this is one of the best posts I've read in a long time.

Thanks again for sharing.


----------



## flatlander_48

No problem. Glad to put a little Karma back into the till. I'll still amazed that I got to do that. I guess there really is something to the saying "Fortune favors the bold.".


----------



## ultimobici

flatlander_48 said:


> Actually, the "dust settling" is related to my bank account after going to Chorus! Need to wait for a while until those ripples fade away.


Look on the "bright" side, you have to walk into a shop to see to or buy it. I cannot avoid it as it's my job to deal with it. Like a child in a sweet store!



> Shimano has an interface unit which is what you connect to do the diagnostics. I suspect that it is also how people connect to the system to hack into it. Campagnolo talks about how their diagnostics are included in the control module. They have not listed or mentioned anything about an interface unit.


I think hacking it will be a little harder than Di2. I get the impression that there's less going on with Di2 than EPS in general as well as the "brain" being in the front mech not the battery pack.



> SoapBox Time:
> Shimano folks like to point out that the 11sp Campagnolo Chain Tool sells for around $300. However, the SM-EC79 System Checker/Programmer Unit for Di2 systems is more expensive than that. cbike.com in Chicago has it listed for $379.99...


And the chain tool is not essential. One can use Park's CT-4.2 & CT-11 or use a KMC 11 Speed Connector on the chain. However you have to use the System Checker with Di2.

We got provisional pricing yesterday too. Record EPS will be a shade over £3000 complete with cranks, brakes etc. Super Record & Super Record Ti, add £500 and £650 respectively.


----------



## Sven_Nijs

ultimobici said:


> We got provisional pricing yesterday too. Record EPS will be a shade over £3000 complete with cranks, brakes etc. Super Record & Super Record Ti, add £500 and £650 respectively.


Thanks. Is that the RRP or 'over the counter' pricing? 
How do those prices compare with your current pricing for mechanical Record and DA Di2?


----------



## ultimobici

Sven_Nijs said:


> Thanks. Is that the RRP or 'over the counter' pricing?
> How do those prices compare with your current pricing for mechanical Record and DA Di2?


Di2 £2700
Record - £1700
Super Record - £2050

RRP has not been promulgated yet. So that price is an estimate, based on Campag's price to us.


----------



## flatlander_48

ultimobici said:


> I think hacking it will be a little harder than Di2. I get the impression that there's less going on with Di2 than EPS in general as well as the "brain" being in the front mech not the battery pack.


If I could speculate, maybe Campagnolo doesn't want folks hacking into the system, changing stuff and giving the group a bad name if something goes wrong. I could see that. Lots of negative energy out there regarding Campagnolo. Some would look for something negative just to have something to say.



ultimobici said:


> And the chain tool is not essential. One can use Park's CT-4.2 & CT-11 or use a KMC 11 Speed Connector on the chain. However you have to use the System Checker with Di2.


I'm currently running the KMC Connector. Makes life a lot easier when you have to pack your bike.



ultimobici said:


> We got provisional pricing yesterday too. Record EPS will be a shade over £3000 complete with cranks, brakes etc. Super Record & Super Record Ti, add £500 and £650 respectively.


It may take quite a while for that dust to settle...


----------



## orange_julius

ultimobici said:


> Di2 £2700
> Record - £1700
> Super Record - £2050
> 
> RRP has not been promulgated yet. So that price is an estimate, based on Campag's price to us.


Great info, thanks for sharing the estimates. Do those prices include the full groupset, or is that the upgrade beyond a Record or Super Record groupset?


----------



## ultimobici

orange_julius said:


> Great info, thanks for sharing the estimates. Do those prices include the full groupset, or is that the upgrade beyond a Record or Super Record groupset?


Full group set, so that includes crankset, BB cups, cassette, chain, callipers as well as the EPS bits.

So all in all Record EPS is about £250 more than Di2 but no extra diagnostic kit is required unlike Di2.


----------



## orange_julius

ultimobici said:


> Full group set, so that includes crankset, BB cups, cassette, chain, callipers as well as the EPS bits.
> 
> So all in all Record EPS is about £250 more than Di2 but no extra diagnostic kit is required unlike Di2.


Hey Ultimobici, I think I'm getting some numbers confused here.

You had posted the following, does this refer to the wholesale/OEM price and not the MSRP/RRP? 



ultimobici said:


> Di2 £2700
> Record - £1700
> Super Record - £2050


So is it correct that your estimate of the Record EPS full groupset is around £3000? Just want to get an idea how much coin I have to save up :-D. Thanks.


----------



## ultimobici

orange_julius said:


> Hey Ultimobici, I think I'm getting some numbers confused here.
> 
> You had posted the following, does this refer to the wholesale/OEM price and not the MSRP/RRP?
> 
> 
> 
> So is it correct that your estimate of the Record EPS full groupset is around £3000? Just want to get an idea how much coin I have to save up :-D. Thanks.


£3000-3100 for a complete record eps groupset inc BB, cranks, brakes, cassette & chain.


----------



## Mapei

*Hacking?*

Could somebody fill me in on the subject of hacking when it comes to electronic gear change mechanisms? Are folks afraid that Andre Greipel will push a button in the middle of a sprint and put Cavendish into the small ring?


----------



## Nielly

I think the concern is expessed in terms of how it relates to the company itself as they don't want someone messing with the programming then claiming warranty issues after they screw something up. By the way in the Campy video of the brain I'm pretty sure they mentioned that the charging port is a multi pin connector and can be used to diagnose and download firmware if required.


----------



## kbwh

flatlander_48 said:


> <...>Campagnolo does have the habit of dropping a name/line and resurrecting it later. So, I guess we'll see what happens...


Croce d'Aune, please.


----------



## flatlander_48

Video on the history of electronic shifting systems at Campagnolo...

EPS: the history - YouTube

This started in the early 90's for Campagnolo, but I don't have an idea of when Shimano started work on what became Di2...


----------



## Pirx

kbwh said:


> Croce d'Aune, please.


Seconded...










One of the most awesome rear derailleur systems ever to see the light of this planet. Shimano had a patent on the skewed parallelogram derailleur, so Campy came up with this system, which rotates the derailleur around the main bolt, with the actual shifting motion effected by the little connecting rod.


----------



## flatlander_48

Campagnolo has a area on YouTube:
Campagnolo.... - YouTube

However, if you subscribe to their newsletter, you get informed when videos are added to the area. Recently there are a number of EPS specific videos:
campagnolo eps - YouTube


----------



## AnthonyL88

Campagnolo still didn't release the prices for the EPS Record and EPS Super Record.


----------



## flatlander_48

AnthonyL88 said:


> Campagnolo still didn't release the prices for the EPS Record and EPS Super Record.


Are you ready to make a Yeah or Nay buying decision?


----------



## cohiba7777

Great write up brother - thanks for sharing.


----------



## flatlander_48

No problem!!

There's a lot of interest out there in the e-shift systems. The majority of what apears in print is by the so-called experts. I thought it might be useful to hear from an average guy.


----------



## ultimobici

AnthonyL88 said:


> Campagnolo still didn't release the prices for the EPS Record and EPS Super Record.


They have released prices to wholesaler & OE buyers. The reason that the retail price has not been set is that until Campagnolo are actually ready to ship the price may vary due to the €/£ or €/$ rates. The rate with Sterling is moving up, potentially making it cheaper as it rises. If that rate goes back down the price is likely to rise.

Apparently our order is almost ready to ship, so I'll have a firmer RRP soon.

But it looks like £3000 ish for a complete Record EPS group including cranks, bb, brakes, cassette & chain. Super Record is likely to be around £3600 complete. Start saving!


----------



## thirstyman

so completely no interest in electronic.


----------



## flatlander_48

thirstyman said:


> so completely no interest in electronic.


That's fine, but remember that time marches on. I doubt that there are many of us who would be willing to give up our iPhone and Androids, our LCD TV's or our GPS systems. Today's novelty becomes tomorrows staple. It's just how things work...


----------



## kbwh

Track back 27 years. "I don't want no goddamn index shifting!"


----------



## flatlander_48

kbwh said:


> Track back 27 years. "I don't want no goddamn index shifting!"


FUNNY!!! How quickly we forget. We rail against technology only to eventually adopt it. I've mentioned on other forums that I have never owned a vehicle with an automatic transmission. Clearly it is something that has been of great value to many people, but it really isn't to me. I prefer to have that additional degree of control and an opportunity to practice/display my prowess in driving the vehicle. Anyway, it's fun to me while others would consider it a burden.

If I could afford it, I would be first in line to buy and EPS system. Unfortunately it is going to have to wait...


----------



## ultimobici

kbwh said:


> Track back 27 years. "I don't want no goddamn index shifting!"


I can still remember exactly where I was when I first heard indexed shifting. Ipswich Road in Norwich. It was so loud in comparison to Nuovo Record it startled me, "Not for me!" I thought.

almost 20 years later I experimented with some Simplex Retrofrictions. It lasted exactly 26 miles, 13 home & 13 back to work. I ain't going back, no way!


----------



## BLUE BOY

Prediction; within five years the pro peleton will be over 50% electric.


----------



## mgringle

Only 50%? At least that...


----------



## flatlander_48

FROM:
Tech Report – Do androids dream of electric shifters?

_Still, one might ask, what’s the point? Campagnolo’s racers and product test riders describe it as being extremely accurate and powerful in its shift action; to the point where a racer no longer has to time shifts before terrain changes or maximum power inputs, like during an attack. It always shifts to the desired position, no matter its environment._

_“It’s great, just great,” said Cofidis’s Staf Scheirlinckx, who started the Tour on the prototype group. “It changes very fast and it always hits the right gear. It works perfectly, we did all of the classics with it too.”_


----------



## flatlander_48

The Velo 2012 Bicycle Buyer's Guide came out recently. Leonard Zinn wrote a piece about Di2 and EPS.

He also included the following weight chart:

Super Record (mechanical) - 1895g
SRAM Red - 1933g
Dura-Ace 7900 (mechanical) - 2052g
Super Record EPS - 2098g
Record EPS - 2184g
Dura-Ace Di2 - 2219g
Ultegra Di2 - 2482g

Looks like the Athena EPS group will come in 30g lighter than Ultegra Di2...


----------



## CLTracer

Expect SR EPS to be $6500 for a complete group set. Basing that on cost of Dogma 2 Limited Edition bike.


----------



## BunnV

CLTracer said:


> Expect SR EPS to be $6500 for a complete group set. Basing that on cost of Dogma 2 Limited Edition bike.


Here ya go... Campagnolo Super Record EPS Groupset


----------



## Pirx

BunnV said:


> Here ya go... Campagnolo Super Record EPS Groupset


Arrgghh, that's pricey, even for my taste. 

Good thing I remembered that I never wanted one of them newfangled electronic groups anyway... 

On the other hand, if you can wait a year or so, I'll bet you can find the group sold for less than 4 grand from one of the UK places.


----------



## flatlander_48

Pirx said:


> Arrgghh, that's pricey, even for my taste.
> 
> Good thing I remembered that I never wanted one of them newfangled electronic groups anyway...
> 
> On the other hand, if you can wait a year or so, I'll bet you can find the group sold for less than 4 grand from one of the UK places.


Well, note that Record will be a step less and for 2013, Athena EPS will be less expensive still. However, you can still divide up the $$. I upgraded to 11spd Chorus at the end of last Fall so that if I choose to do EPS, I will only need to buy the shifters, derailleurs and the electronics. I wonder what $5,600 comes to minus crank, cluster, bracket cups and chain? Maybe about $4,000 or a bit under with Wiggle's current Super Record prices...


----------



## Salsa_Lover

Lucky me, I don't have any interest whatsoever in electronic anything on my bike, even the computer I rarely look at it anymore. I was tempted to get a Garmin at some point but simply couldn't see the real use for it.

I am happy with my current full mechanic R11


----------



## voodoo01

Can we buy the EPS online already?


----------



## kbwh

Ja: Bike24 - Campagnolo Record EPS Groupset 2x11
For some weird reason (Salsa, is that you?) they don't show the compact record crank set in the selection table, but it is in stock as a single item and a swap should be no problem.


----------



## flatlander_48

Note how the price compares with Dura-Ace Di2. Early on Campagnolo said that Record EPS would be in the same price range as D/A Di2. The Bike24 pricing in Euros is 2659 for D/A vs. 2899 for R EPS. Ultimately I would expect the prices to be even closer. The D/A parts have been around long enough that the price has settled, but it's too soon for that to happen to EPS.


----------



## nachtjager

A bit of a hijack, but it has been discussed here... Could you possibly post up a pic of the athena triple cranks please?


----------



## flatlander_48

nachtjager said:


> A bit of a hijack, but it has been discussed here... Could you possibly post up a pic of the athena triple cranks please?


Unfortunately I can't do that. 95% of my stuff from Taiwan is in storage and the promotional material from Campagnolo (where the previous scans came from) is part of that...


----------



## ultraman6970

Hmmm wonder if you had a tesch track bike a few years ago???


----------



## flatlander_48

ultraman6970 said:


> Hmmm wonder if you had a tesch track bike a few years ago???


No, never had a track bike. As an adult, 3 road bikes and one mountain bike but just 1 road bike now...

Why do you ask?


----------



## AnthonyL88

voodoo01 said:


> Can we buy the EPS online already?


You can preorder the Campagnolo EPS now. The prices for the EPS Record & Super Record are not bad, you just got to look around for the best deals. Don't let certain bike shop rip you off with the prices. 

It's true Campagnolo is only shipping 40 EPS Super Record Groups to the USA in 2012. I'm not sure how many EPS Record Groups will be available in the USA for 2012.

But if you are interested in the EPS group, then I recommend Glory cycles.


----------



## AnthonyL88

flatlander_48 said:


> Are you ready to make a Yeah or Nay buying decision?


I already put in my order for the EPS Super Record Group. 

There will be only 40 EPS Super Record Group coming to the USA in 2012.


----------



## squirrelflip21

So limited!!!!!


----------



## AnthonyL88

squirrelflip21 said:


> So limited!!!!!


Yes, unfortunately Campagnolo will only import 40 EPS Super Record Group to the USA in 2012.


----------



## PaxRomana

Who cares about the import limits? You can buy it all day from Europe for cheaper.


----------



## flatlander_48

AnthonyL88 said:


> Yes, unfortunately Campagnolo will only import 40 EPS Super Record Group to the USA in 2012.


That seems really odd. I understood that they could build 50 systems per day. That would be 1000 per month without weekends. I believe that the US is about 17% of their business. If that translates to the drivetrain side of the business, that's 170 systems per month (S/R and R combined). In that context, 40 S/R systems for the year seems low...


----------



## jazclrint

Had a great chat with Campy NA today (I work for an LBS). Expect Athena EPS around November, which is SOP for the next year's stuff. He said Athena will probably be a similar ratio more than Ultegra Di2 as Record is than DA Di2. He used rough numbers, but I'm not sure if he was talking wholesale or MSRP, so I am not comfortable saying. No Chorus EPS. The word I got was that a Chorus EPS group would be one too many this early on. 

I also asked about external routing. He said you can route it externally, but it'd look a bit messy with zip ties, and extra lengths, ect. He said was designed for internal routing. I told him I had seen the Di2 externally routed (was told there is an external routing kit by the shop owner). He asked how it looked. It actually didn't look that bad, but from the pictures of the EPS, the Campy wires are way beefier, and the Di2 looked like speedo sensor wires. I'd love to get a hold of one and see how I might go about making it look clean. I am thinking cable housing stop adapters similar to the ones for hydraulic lines might be the ticket.


----------



## flatlander_48

jazclrint said:


> Had a great chat with Campy NA today (I work for an LBS). Expect Athena EPS around November, which is SOP for the next year's stuff. *He said Athena will probably be a similar ratio more than Ultegra Di2 as Record is than DA Di2.* He used rough numbers, but I'm not sure if he was talking wholesale or MSRP, so I am not comfortable saying. No Chorus EPS. The word I got was that a Chorus EPS group would be one too many this early on.


That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If Record EPS is going to be about the same ($) as Dura-Ace Di2, then why slot Athena EPS between D/A Di2 and and Ultegra Di2? To me, the logical thing to do would be to bring Athena EPS in below Ultegra Di2. In that way you provide an alternative to Ultegra Di2 AND put a bit of pressure on Shimano to do 105 Di2.

Very Curious...


----------



## ultimobici

flatlander_48 said:


> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If Record EPS is going to be about the same ($) as Dura-Ace Di2, then why slot Athena EPS between D/A Di2 and and Ultegra Di2? To me, the logical thing to do would be to bring Athena EPS in below Ultegra Di2. In that way you provide an alternative to Ultegra Di2 AND put a bit of pressure on Shimano to do 105 Di2.
> 
> Very Curious...


You're assuming that it is possible to produce Athena EPS cheaply enough to do that. If Athena uses the same tech as Record & Super Record it is unlikely that they can pull the cost down without compromising quality to the point that it becomes Xenon EPS with Athena written on it. Campag do not need to undercut Shimano to coexist.


----------



## flatlander_48

I understand what you say and it is quite possibly true. My thought was based on how the mechanical systems are positioned. Looking at oft-mentioned Ribble prices:

Ultegra $915
Athena $743

Granted, the electronics and the drive hardware are probably the same but Athena wouldn't have the carbon parts in the derailleurs. I assume they would all be diecast.


----------



## jazclrint

Athena EPS should be even close in price to Ultegra Di2 than Record will be to DA, if that helps. Also, the companies are going to base how they see their products placed in the market by MSRP, not internet. Right now, Mechanical Chorus as far as weight, and I believe price, is poised squarely at DA, and above Ultegra SL (or whatever it is), and Athena meant to undercut Ultegra.


----------



## flatlander_48

Hard to pinpoint MSRP, but R&A Cycles in NYC should be essentially list price. Unfortunately there is no EPS pricing, but for mechanical:

Super Record (titanium) $2785
Record (2011) $2155
Chorus $1572
Athena carbon $1261

Dura-Ace $2500
Ultegra $1219

Shimano's pricing seems odd. You wouldn't think that they would price the top of the line 2x compared to the next in line...


----------



## jazclrint

What happened to Ultegra SL? I would think that would close the gap. I'd like to see a Centaur group stacked up against Ultegra. It might be rather enlightening. I can get MSRP from one of the one of the distributors. The problem is remembering when I have the time.


----------



## JimmyORCA

Well after a wait, my SR EPS is finally here!!!


----------



## AnthonyL88

Congratulations!! Where did you buy the Campy EPS SR Group? How much did it cost?.. How do you like the ride?


----------



## flatlander_48

jazclrint said:


> What happened to Ultegra SL? I would think that would close the gap. I'd like to see a Centaur group stacked up against Ultegra. It might be rather enlightening. I can get MSRP from one of the one of the distributors. The problem is remembering when I have the time.


Last spring Cycling+ or Cycling Active (both are UK cycling magazines) tested Centaur, 105 and Rival. They even went as far as measuring front and rear shift times using high speed cameras. Centaur was a clear winner, but they chose Rival ONLY because they liked the extended range with the SRAM cassettes. Dollarwise, the difference between the groups was maybe enough for 2 people to go to a middle of the road restaurant...


----------



## JimmyORCA

AnthonyL88 said:


> Congratulations!! Where did you buy the Campy EPS SR Group? How much did it cost?.. How do you like the ride?


I bought it as a complete bike from Wilier so I can not say how much the groupset cost. Hopefully tomorrow will now rain and I will get a chance to take my new ride out for a spin!!!


----------



## AnthonyL88

JimmyORCA said:


> I bought it as a complete bike from Wilier so I can not say how much the groupset cost. Hopefully tomorrow will now rain and I will get a chance to take my new ride out for a spin!!!


Did you buy the Wilier Zero 7?


----------



## JimmyORCA

Yes I did buy the Wilier Zero 7 Team Edition. I posted some pics in other bikes section.


----------



## Sworker

Well that is a good way of putting it. I have a Campy Super Records 10 setup one bike and Shimano DA on another. I love the Campy, it has required for attention over the years to keep in top shape, but Campy does rule. I have tired Di2 and Shimano did a great job with this so Campy has alot of catching up to do.


----------



## flatlander_48

Sworker said:


> Well that is a good way of putting it. I have a Campy Super Records 10 setup one bike and Shimano DA on another. I love the Campy, it has required for attention over the years to keep in top shape, but Campy does rule. *I have tired Di2 and Shimano did a great job with this so Campy has alot of catching up to do*.


I don't know about that. Campagnolo's advantages stack up like this:




Both Super Record and Record EPS groups are lighter than Dura-Ace Di2.
As intended, Record EPS is price competitive with Dura-Ace Di2
EPS diagnostics are on board. Shops and DIY riders don't have to buy an additional interface unit for close to $300.
A lot of the tactile sensation when shifting has been retained by Campagnolo.
The drive system on the rear derailleur can be disconnected from the derailleur mechanism. If you fall, it helps to prevent damage to the drive system. In case of some electronic fault (or dead battery) it allows you to continue riding by being able to move the rear derailleur manually.
Shift levers on Di2 are very close together. Although probably not a problem for everybody, I found it a bit difficult to use. It looks like it would also be very difficult with gloves. Campagnolo shifters are similar in arrangement to their mechanical systems. No way you can get the wrong lever by mistake.


----------



## ultimobici

Sworker said:


> Well that is a good way of putting it. I have a Campy Super Records 10 setup one bike and Shimano DA on another. *I love the Campy, it has required for attention over the years to keep in top shape*, but Campy does rule. I have tired Di2 and Shimano did a great job with this so Campy has alot of catching up to do.


Get a new mechanic. Absolutely no reason for it to need tinkering.


----------



## Sworker

I completely disagree. My mechanic can rebuild a shifter with his eyes closed and has rode Campy for 20 years. I have had both for 4 years now and the Shimano works longer after a tune-up than Campy

I love Campy and would buy it again if I was going to not buy an electronic group...that said after riding Di2 my next bike will be electric shifing no question about it and we'll see if the Campy setup makes its way into a bike I get for 5-7k. I saw the EPS group at Interbike and it looks very sexy and I would love to have one.


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## flatlander_48

Sworker said:


> I completely disagree. My mechanic can rebuild a shifter with his eyes closed and has rode Campy for 20 years. I have had both for 4 years now and the Shimano works longer after a tune-up than Campy
> 
> I love Campy and would buy it again if I was going to not buy an electronic group...that said after riding Di2 my next bike will be electric shifing no question about it and *we'll see if the Campy setup makes its way into a bike I get for 5-7k*. I saw the EPS group at Interbike and it looks very sexy and I would love to have one.


If you can find a Dura-Ace Di2 bike at that price, Record EPS should be possible.


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## cs1

flatlander_48 said:


> In addition, in 2013 Campagnolo will have what may be the first 11sp triple. It will come as a 52/39/30 with medium and long cage models. The long cage will allow you to use the 12-29 cassette. My _guess_ is that you might be able to do an Athena EPS triple. If the EPS systems are like the mechanical systems, I did not have to change my 2005 Centaur shifters when going from a double to a triple.


Why does Campy stubornly stick with the 52 or 53 big ring in their triples? a 110 BCD spyder with a 48 or 46 T big ring is more practical.


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## flatlander_48

cs1 said:


> Why does Campy stubornly stick with the 52 or 53 big ring in their triples? a 110 BCD spyder with a 48 or 46 T big ring is more practical.


Interesting question. My own path here was a 53/39 with a 12-25 out back. I was perfectly happy with this for the flats and moderate hills for the area where I lived in Taiwan. It was right at the coast and some distance from the foothills of the mountains. After about 18 months, I moved to another city that was further inland and fairly close to the foothills. Sometimes in group rides, there were short but steep climbs that were difficult to negotiate due to very slow cadence. My next step was a 53/42/30 with the same cassette. This let me keep the top end and still have enough low end for the short, steep climbs. This started out as all Centaur and then became a Centaur/Chorus mix (all 10sp). I rode the triple for about 3 1/2 years and it worked very well.

However, last Fall I decided to go to 11sp Chorus to get ready for a move to EPS later on. But, at the time I didn't know that there would be a 11sp triple offered for the 2013 model year. Grudgingly, I decided to go with a 50/34 and 12-29. I've got the low end that I needed, but I did sacrifice some top end. And personally, I like going fast.

To address your thoughts specifically, you have to remember that Campagnolo strongly aligns themselves with the professional community. That has always been their focus and it's what drives them to make really cool stuff for professional and regular folks. Unfortunately, they are just not focused on the touring community (I'm making an assumption about your riding interests here). Also, a relatively small company like Campagnolo can't be all things to all people. A year or 2 ago, can't remember which, they were at about $150,000,000 in yearly sales whereas Shimano was at $2,000,000,000 (yes, that's Billion) for their bike division alone.


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## cs1

flatlander_48 said:


> To address your thoughts specifically, you have to remember that Campagnolo strongly aligns themselves with the professional community. That has always been their focus and it's what drives them to make really cool stuff for professional and regular folks. Unfortunately, they are just not focused on the touring community (I'm making an assumption about your riding interests here). Also, a relatively small company like Campagnolo can't be all things to all people. A year or 2 ago, can't remember which, they were at about $150,000,000 in yearly sales whereas Shimano was at $2,000,000,000 (yes, that's Billion) for their bike division alone.


Agreed about the pros. I don't tour. More like day trips or sport riding. Campy should be able to convert their 110 BCD double to a triple without too much trouble. Sugino just casts the bosses into their cranks for the granny ring. Then they drill them on the triple and leave as cast on the CT doubles.


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## flatlander_48

cs1 said:


> Agreed about the pros. I don't tour. *More like day trips or sport riding.* Campy should be able to convert their 110 BCD double to a triple without too much trouble. Sugino just casts the bosses into their cranks for the granny ring. Then they drill them on the triple and leave as cast on the CT doubles.


Semantics, perhaps, but that sounds pretty close to touring to me. I don't do anything like day trips. So far, I just haven't. My rides are usually 20 to 50 miles and I try to keep my speed up. The duration would be roughly 90 minutes to a bit over 4 hours; but definitely not all day.

I understand what you mean about what works for your situation. However, as weight conscious as Campagnolo is, I doubt if they would ever cast bosses on a part, but only really need it on just some of the parts. That would just go against the grain.


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## Sworker

I hope I do see Campy electric in that price range!! I think just support of Campy is something I personally would like to do, supporting the old school bike industry. 

I saw the EPS at the Interbike conference in Sept for the first time, unfortunately it was non-functional. I wouldn't mind having an EPS 2013-2014 bike when my Campy Records setup logs another 14k and needs to be rebuilt again!


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## flatlander_48

Sworker said:


> I hope I do see Campy electric in that price range!! I think just support of Campy is something I personally would like to do, supporting the old school bike industry.
> 
> I saw the EPS at the Interbike conference in Sept for the first time, unfortunately it was non-functional. I wouldn't mind having an EPS 2013-2014 bike when my Campy Records setup logs another 14k and needs to be rebuilt again!


On another EPS-related thread, someone mentioned the Maestro shop in the UK. They are evidently a well known Colnago dealer. Their web site had Record EPS slightly cheaper than Dura-Ace Di2. Campganolo positioned Record EPS (and not Super Record) to be comparable to Dura-Ace Di2 and that's how it turned out...


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## ultraman6970

Asking because i thought the guy I go a tesch track frame long time ago  I could have been funny if you were him... the other guy is between the US and Asia also.. a lot of stuff in storage and stuff... thats why i asked.




flatlander_48 said:


> No, never had a track bike. As an adult, 3 road bikes and one mountain bike but just 1 road bike now...
> 
> Why do you ask?


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## flatlander_48

ultraman6970 said:


> Asking because i thought the guy I go a tesch track frame long time ago  I could have been funny if you were him... the other guy is between the US and Asia also.. a lot of stuff in storage and stuff... thats why i asked.


No problem; just curious.You know, The World is getting smaller all the time.

However, I did have a similar situation that turned out to be true. I originally went to Taiwan in January of 2004. I was in a city named Tainan for 18 months. My company also has a plant in a city called Taichung and I spent the next 4 1/2 years there, but I never made it back to Tainan for a visit.

When I was working in Tainan, I met another expatriate at a popular watering hole. There was no place to secure my bike outside, so the owner let me bring it indoors. So the other guy and I started talking about bikes and it turned out that he rode on and managed a semi-pro team there in Taiwan. He also did product testing work for some of the manufacturers. He organized a series of Thursday Night Time Trials near the beach just south of Tainan. I ran a few of those, just to be doing it, though. Anyway, I never saw him again once I left Tainan.

Fast forward a few years and I'm on another bike forum and participating in a thread about the bike business in Taiwan. There's a guy on there who has a lot of first-hand knowledge. He mentioned something about Tainan, and the conversation went like this:

You're in Tainan? I lived there for about 18 months.

Yeah, been here for a while...

Is that joint still there over on...

Yeah, I used to hang out there...

I met a guy in there once who used to organize a weekly time trial along the beach and...

Yeah, that was me. What's your name?

If he had never said something about Tainan, the conversation would never have started since we both do not post under our own names. You know, you just can't make this stuff up! Definitely a small World...


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## killsoft

Sworker said:


> I completely disagree. My mechanic can rebuild a shifter with his eyes closed and has rode Campy for 20 years. I have had both for 4 years now and the Shimano works longer after a tune-up than Campy
> ...


This is my experience also. My Campag bikes requires more frequent fiddling to maintain shift quality. Hopefully EPS will change that, for those that buy it.

KS


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## flatlander_48

killsoft said:


> This is my experience also. My Campag bikes requires more frequent fiddling to maintain shift quality. Hopefully EPS will change that, for those that buy it.
> 
> KS


You realize, of course, that some people just like to fiddle independent from the need to do so...


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## killsoft

flatlander_48 said:


> You realize, of course, that some people just like to fiddle independent from the need to do so...


I do, and I can relate.  Lately, I prefer riding over fiddling. At least, I want the fiddling to be optional. 

KS


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## ultimobici

killsoft said:


> This is my experience also. My Campag bikes requires more frequent fiddling to maintain shift quality. Hopefully EPS will change that, for those that buy it.
> 
> KS


I just don't get this. I commute 120 miles a week plus weekend rides on Record 11. The only time I need to adjust my bike is when I swap from Record hubbed wheels to DT Swiss or vice versa, due to the freehub body positions being a fraction different.


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## flatlander_48

killsoft said:


> I do, and I can relate.  Lately, I prefer riding over fiddling. At least, I want the fiddling to be optional.
> 
> KS


My first set of clipless pedals were an inexpensive set by Ritchey. I could never seem to adjust them to my liking. I rode those for several months and gave up on them. I replaced them with a set of Crank Brothers Quattros. These have the EggBeater mechanism which *Has No Adjustment*. Valhalla!!! When Cranks Brothers discontinued them, I discontinued Crank Brothers and replaced them with BeBops which *Have No Adjustment*. Clearly, this isn't the same situation as you have with a multi-gear drivetrain. However, it does show that we often mess with things just because we can.

And I agree, More Riding, Less Adjusting!


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## FrenchNago

cs1 said:


> Why does Campy stubornly stick with the 52 or 53 big ring in their triples? a 110 BCD spyder with a 48 or 46 T big ring is more practical.


why buy campy if you want triple? IMHO 11cogs and compact works just as well or standard 50/39 its up the the user


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## kbwh

We arranged the Norwegian Masters TT and RR Championships this weekend, lots of expensive gear for the drool inclined. An old riding buddy from 13 years ago had SR EPS on his brand new Storck Fenomalist. I did a parking lot "test".
EPS is gooooood. Wonderful ergonomics. Call and response. I don't need mech...


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## flatlander_48

kbwh said:


> We arranged the Norwegian Masters TT and RR Championships this weekend, lots of expensive gear for the drool inclined. An old riding buddy from 13 years ago had SR EPS on his brand new Storck Fenomalist. I did a parking lot "test".
> *EPS is gooooood. Wonderful ergonomics. Call and response.* I don't need mech...


I was really surprised at how it all worked. I was expecting a much more noticable event, but there was very little drama. You select and the appropriate shift event occurred. Simply put, it just works.


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## cda 455

Let's bring this thread back up for some updates, etc  !


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## BlackKnight

I just got my SR EPS (on my 2013 Trek 6 series) and I can only suggest that you think of the smoothest thing you could touch and the shifting is like that. The EPS is great, but admittedly, my only comparison is my Trek 2.1 that came with the SRAM 150. Not a fair comparison I am sure. With that said, I could not be happier with it and love the 11 speed. The progression is smoother. The shifters are comfortable and the shifter has a great feedback feel so you know you hit it. Changing rings can't be achieved better with a mechanical as it is fast and definite with a simple touch. The ability to shift multiple gears is helpful on steep rollers. No need to shift one at a time. Once you ride it a bit, you get the feel for how long to hold it down to shift the number of gears you want although you can go through the full cassette very fast. I just would rarely need that in the Spring area of Texas. Others who ride steeper hills will appreciate that more.

2013 Trek 6 Series
Super Record EPS Group (except brakes)
2012 Easton EC90 Aero wheels


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