# My Jim Kish custom Ti bike



## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

My Kish Ti frame has finally built. This is actually considered a CX bike since it was designed with a CX fork geometry and with clearances for 35c knobby tires, mud, as well as fender mounts. Instead of having all the cables on the top tube, I had it made with shift cables on the down tube and only brake cable on the top tube, just to be different. This will be a do-it-all bike for me including road riding, CX racing, and light touring. For the immediate future, it will be used mainly for road biking. What makes this bike very unique is that it has 135 mm rear wheel spacing and Campagnolo 11 speed drive train as well as disc brakes. You would normally do not see such combination on a road bike. 

The size would be considered extra small since it has a 520 mm effective top tube length with a stand over height of around 30". This is not my first custom Ti bike so naturally it was business as usual and no surprises detected while taking her out for a spin. What makes this bike different than all of my other Ti bikes is the chain stays, which is 435 mm long versus 406 mm long of all my other Ti bikes. This extra long chain stays makes it feel more stable and butter smooth on the road, due to my center of gravity being distributed more evenly between wheels. Did I mention it is silky smooth? Look forward to taking her out for my first century spin when spring comes, which hopefully soon. 

Here is a quick spec sheet:
- Weight as shown is around 19.75 lb. A tank for a WW indeed!
- A combination of Super Record, Record, and Chorus, 11 speed drive train
- A Whisky No. 7 CX fork. This thing tips the scale at 725 grams out of the box. 
- Chris King Inset 1 headset
- Moots stem and seatpost
- Prologo Scratch Pro saddle
- Avid BB7 road disc brakes
- King Ti cages
- Look carbon pedals
- FSA Omega compact handlebar
- Cinelli carbon bar tape
- A custom wheelset with DT Swiss 240 hubs, CX-ray spokes, and Kinlin XR-300 mm rims

A plain Jane machine indeed! Hope you will like it! Cheers!


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## dongringo (Dec 3, 2011)

VERY NICE!!! And very interesting! I applaud you for doing something different. :thumbsup:


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## TimV (Mar 20, 2007)

Great looking bike. Regarding the head tube / headset, is it 44mm top and bottom (I think CK calls this Inset 1)? Thanks.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

Thanks for all the great comments. With such a heavy bike, wondering if I am gonna be able to keep up with dongringo on his superlite bike?

Yes, it is 44 mm top and bottom Inset headset with a straight 1-1/8" fork. The whole purpose of having this oversize head tube for me was to hide those bearing cups inside for a simplified look.


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

Do you mind me asking what a custom Ti frame costs? Ballpark is fine. I've been thinking about adding one to the stable...


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

Cyclin Dan said:


> Do you mind me asking what a custom Ti frame costs? Ballpark is fine. I've been thinking about adding one to the stable...


Jim Kish's straight gauge Ti frames start at $2,800 and it includes custom geometry and additional braze-ons. Oversize head tube like the one shown here is $200 extra.


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## dongringo (Dec 3, 2011)

tigoat said:


> Thanks for all the great comments. With such a heavy bike, wondering if I am gonna be able to keep up with dongringo on his superlite bike?


LOL It's not a contest. :wink5:


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## 196nautique (Sep 23, 2005)

Looks like they missed the advertised weight of that fork by a little bit.


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## Chocolatebike (Feb 28, 2011)

Nice bike Tigoat, it's very similar in concept to mine:-
Ti frame, Campag (20 speed in my case), BB7s, compact bars.


11-06-09 Disc braked Enigma road bike RHS by Chocolatebike1, on Flickr

Changes since that picture; I've swapped the Kinesis fork for a Trigon MTB fork that I bought off Ebay, it has Vittoria Pave tyres, Crud Catchers and a Fizik saddle.
Weight in the spec in the picture was 8.9kg/19.6lb.
I think that I can get a 35mm tyre on the back, it's certainly no problem on the front.


.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

Chocolatebike: Similar concept indeed! Welcome to the club! Is your frame a custom? You are from England? I saw that you have those Paragon Expedition low-mount dropouts, which are what I am using to design my next custom frame. Anyhow, I am using my bike mainly for road biking for now. I look forward to mounting some 35c tires on mine and take her off road. Appreciated the post, it was nice looking at pictures of your cool bike. Cheers!:thumbsup:


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

196nautique said:


> Looks like they missed the advertised weight of that fork by a little bit.


Yeah by about 50 grams?


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## Chocolatebike (Feb 28, 2011)

Yes, it's custom, made by Enigma bikes in the UK. Like you I use this mainly as a road bike.
For "off-roading" I have another Enigma fitted with a Rohloff although it originally started out with derailleurs. 
This one:-


12-02-29 Enigma/Rohloff/ Kinesis DC19 RHS 2 by Chocolatebike1, on Flickr

Briefly, I didn't mean to get two Ti bikes but the one above was stolen and the insurance paid out very quickly so I ordered the replacement Enigma. Then the stolen bike appeared on Ebay, the police went and recovered it and I bought it back off the insurance co.
After that it was a case of changing my spec for the replacement with Enigma since I'd already paid a hefty deposit. Luckily they hadn't started the manufacture and bingo ! a light(ish) disc road bike and a "go most places" tourer.


.


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## 196nautique (Sep 23, 2005)

tigoat said:


> Yeah by about 50 grams?


Listed weight is 459g, and yours weighs 725g.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

196nautique said:


> Listed weight is 459g, and yours weighs 725g.


Listed mass for this CX disc fork with Al steerer is 690 grams so it was about 35 grams heavier. The 459 grams listed on their website is bogus and it might be for all carbon version.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

Chocolatebike: Very nice touring configuration on your second bike. I am shopping for a rack for mine to do some multi-century and light touring rides so it will look similar to what you have some point in time. Good ride!:thumbsup:


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## razza4567 (Dec 30, 2011)

*question about the custom wheels*

I just love your bike!
I have been obtaining components for an almost identical build as yours. A Ti frame with 135 mm rear wheel spacing, Campagnolo 11 speed Chorus and Avid BB7 disc brakes! My frame is more road oriented than yours.
I knew my build would require custom wheels but had not found a suitable rear hub. You have solved the problem for me but I can't identify which DT Swiss 240 hub to use. 
Would you be able to tell me which one you used? Did you find other hubs that would be suitable?
Thanks for sharing your great build


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## Chocolatebike (Feb 28, 2011)

razza4567 said:


> I just love your bike!
> Did you find other hubs that would be suitable?


I ended up with this:- Rear Hub Disc Venus (32h) Campag

It was the bike shop's choice because they struggled to find a Campag/disc hub.


.


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

Very nice -- Jim Kish's work is so good. I have a Kish cross bike and if I didn't stumble upon a Moots compact, I was going to order a new race frame from him.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Super Record on a dirt bike? Dang.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

razza4567 said:


> I just love your bike!
> I have been obtaining components for an almost identical build as yours. A Ti frame with 135 mm rear wheel spacing, Campagnolo 11 speed Chorus and Avid BB7 disc brakes! My frame is more road oriented than yours.
> I knew my build would require custom wheels but had not found a suitable rear hub. You have solved the problem for me but I can't identify which DT Swiss 240 hub to use.
> Would you be able to tell me which one you used? Did you find other hubs that would be suitable?
> Thanks for sharing your great build


Following link is what I have for the rear hub.

DT Swiss - 240s disc brake

I am not aware of another 135 mm rear hub that is Campy campatible, but I have not looked hard enough. I have been a big fan of DT Swiss so naturally I chose the 240s. I would still use the 240s even if there were others available. With that said, there will likely be more hubs like this available in the near future, especially now that Campy is making CX specific components, and disc brakes are legal for CX racing. Chris King has just released a Campy version of their road hub so if it has the same mechanism as their MTB hub then I would imagine you could simply swap out the freehub body. I will definitely look harder in this matter for building my next set of custom wheels. Thanks!


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

veloduffer: A Moots is just as good as any other custom because I have one and it is what I use to judge all of my custom Ti frames. Thanks!


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

Pablo said:


> Super Record on a dirt bike? Dang.


:thumbsup:


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## razza4567 (Dec 30, 2011)

*further question about DT Swiss hub*

Thank you to Tigoat for that link to the DT Swiss 240s disc hub.

However I'm still not sure about what I would need to order. When I look at the table in the DT Swiss "Tech Specs 2012 Hubs" document it does not show that model as being suitable for the Campy Cassette System. Did you have to make a special order? Also did you order one with the Quick Release 5mm?
Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain what is the Conversion Kit "DT Swiss thru bolt / Thru axle, Syntace X-12" referred to at that link. As you can see I am a novice at this and I don't want to order the wrong thing.

Also thanks to ChocolateBike for the link to the Royce option.

I appreciate the help

Thanks


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

razza4567 said:


> Thank you to Tigoat for that link to the DT Swiss 240s disc hub.
> 
> However I'm still not sure about what I would need to order. When I look at the table in the DT Swiss "Tech Specs 2012 Hubs" document it does not show that model as being suitable for the Campy Cassette System. Did you have to make a special order? Also did you order one with the Quick Release 5mm?
> Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain what is the Conversion Kit "DT Swiss thru bolt / Thru axle, Syntace X-12" referred to at that link. As you can see I am a novice at this and I don't want to order the wrong thing.
> ...


Just order a set of standard MTB 240s ISO disc hubs with 5 mm quick release and with a Campagnolo freehub. Forget about other thru bolt axle and wide flagne options, as most likely these options are not compatible for your road frame.


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## tsidkenu84 (Mar 6, 2012)

usually for Ti bikes they have 3.5 and 4.6 if i'm nt mistaken (for materials).. i wonder which material they use for these bikes?


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## TimV (Mar 20, 2007)

Hey TiGoat. What are the diameters of the ST, TT, and DT on your Kish frame? I am in the process with Jim right now and am just trying to get a sense of scale. Thanks!


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

tsidkenu84 said:


> usually for Ti bikes they have 3.5 and 4.6 if i'm nt mistaken (for materials).. i wonder which material they use for these bikes?


Ti tubing is available in various grades including 6Al-4V and 3Al-2.5V, which are commonly used for bike frame contruction. Good luck finding a US builder to build you a frame with 6Al-4V, as this grade of tubing is extremely expensive and must be purchased in certain volumes, so most builders have stop using it for a few years now. Most builders are using the 3Al-2.5V favor nowadays both in straight gauge and butted configurations. This particulary frame has straight gauge tubing.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

TimV: TT is 1.375" diameter. DT is 1.500" diameter. ST is 1.250" diameter. What are you getting from Jim?


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## dongringo (Dec 3, 2011)

tigoat said:


> TimV: TT is 1.375" diameter. DT is 1.500" diameter. ST is 1.250" diameter. What are you getting from Jim?


Exactly the same tube diameters as mine.

What's your impression of the DT 240 hubs? And do they make any noise when coasting?


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

dongringo: My DT 240s freehub is whisper quiet compared to my other Tune and Record hubs. For this set, I like them so far, but only time will tell if they can make a good impression on me for the long run. Cheers!


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## pinepig (Dec 24, 2004)

tigoat said:


> TimV: TT is 1.375" diameter. DT is 1.500" diameter. ST is 1.250" diameter. What are you getting from Jim?


Along these same lines, could you advise on the head tube length? 

Does that Prologo saddle have a relief-channel? It was hard to tell from the website.

Thanks for posting this. You clearly have your thoughts on bicycle design/building well sorted out.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

pinepig said:


> Along these same lines, could you advise on the head tube length?
> 
> Does that Prologo saddle have a relief-channel? It was hard to tell from the website.
> 
> Thanks for posting this. You clearly have your thoughts on bicycle design/building well sorted out.


The HTL for this frame is 130 mm. It looks kind of short for 130 mm because of the massive diameter. The Prologo saddle shown does not have a center relief channel, as they did not have this feature for all their saddles last year. Thanks!


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## TimV (Mar 20, 2007)

My Kish frame is finished. Jim said it should be shipping this week. Woohoo!


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

TimV: Congradulations! Let's see some pictures when you have it so we can envy all over it. Thanks!


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## abrams966 (Apr 25, 2012)

Bike looks great! Good choice on the colour scheme it works out well.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

hey that looks great, reminds me a bit of mine,
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/1728827-post1.html


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

very nice SS kiwisimon! Both frames are similar in material and design but mine has water bottle mounts welded while yours has them riveted with cheesy rivnuts. Got to love the natural finish of Ti!


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

abrams966 said:


> Bike looks great! Good choice on the colour scheme it works out well.


What color scheme!!!:thumbsup:


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## TimV (Mar 20, 2007)

*Another new KISH*

Link to my new KISH thread in Bikes & Frames:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/month-my-new-kish-282262.html


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