# Is Bob Jackson Cycles 'risky" says my bank card



## Mallard4 (Nov 3, 2007)

I need advice!..*HAS this happened to anyone else with Bob Jackson?! *
My credit card company tells me that it declined my Bob Jackson custom-frame purchase because BJ "Is on a list of companies we do not honor", saying that this is probably due to some risky, fraudulent or otherwise unsatisfactory transactions with BJ Cycles in the past. 
This has come after a nine-month wait for my frame, during which time Donald at BJ only communicated with me twice, both in response to my e-mails. The last reply was in July, saying that my frame would be ready "in a few weeks".
I heard nothing for four more months. I wrote Donald, and within a week, got notice that my frame was ready.
I was disappointed with this service, but accepted Donald's excuses, and sent my card number, only to have it declined, becuase payment was to Bob Jackson Cycles!
If anyone knows of an org. like the BBB that monitors UK businesses, I could use the info.
If anyone has had recent good dealings with them I'd like to know that, as well. I shopped a long time for a builder who uses 953, lugs, silver brazing, and no jigs, which can ruin frames.
Thanks....


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Wow... Jackson has been around a long time... should be plenty of folks who've dealt with him. Is Bob even in charge anymore or has the name been sold a dozen times? Anyway, sorry can't help you on the CC front. Just contact the merchant and get them to work it out.


----------



## dir-t (Oct 14, 2005)

Sorry that I can't help you and also sorry to thread drift but...

How does using a jig ruin a frame? Don't you need a jig to keep the alignment correct while welding?


----------



## Mallard4 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Why jigs are bad.....*

There's a lot of debate on the subject, but my dad, who was a Cat 3 racer and Reynolds 753 certified "Master Framebuilder" (Reynolds' designation, not mine) read everything he could get his hands on, and then tried it out in the shop. He determined that jig building kept frames in line by forcing them not to expand during brazing, which weakend the frames. Free-building, the way he did it, caused the frames to go way way out of alignment when heated, then cool back down to within between 20- and 6-thousandths of an inch....
In fact, his frames were so strong and stiff, that NONE can be "cold-set", meaning that the rear triangles can't be made to accomodate contemporary 130-cm rear dropouts, so I'm stuck with the greatest, straightest, stiffest bikes in the world that can't use "Ergopower" "Red" or "STI"....


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

Mallard4 said:


> ...
> In fact, his frames were so strong and stiff, that NONE can be "cold-set",....


 
I could very well be wrong, but I'm calling BS on this part. The frames maybe so stiff that YOU can't apply enough force to cold set it but it's not because it was "free-built"


----------



## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

+1 I agree


----------



## mandovoodoo (Aug 27, 2005)

I liked brazing free MUCH better - I only built one purely "jig" built frame. Didn't like what happened. I built a bunch on a table w/V blocks - free to float. But my favorite was tacked and free in a stand. They were straight afterwards, but would clearly move around during brazing. I could flow the joints so nicely spinning the frame around and pull the excess into an area getting cut off. Great fun.


----------



## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

This must be a troll.


----------



## Mallard4 (Nov 3, 2007)

*NO "Troll", REAL PROBLEM*

I had to look up "troll". No way.This is really happening to me, and I thought I could get some advice, but realize that most of you would rather debate "titanium vs CF" than whether any of us could be getting ripped-off for a $2,200 custom frame.


----------



## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

Mallard4 said:


> I had to look up "troll". No way.This is really happening to me, and I thought I could get some advice, but realize that most of you would rather debate "titanium vs CF" than whether any of us could be getting ripped-off for a $2,200 custom frame.


You're paying $2200 for a bob jackson? dude, you ARE getting ripped off.


----------



## Mallard4 (Nov 3, 2007)

$2600, actually, including my 200 lb. deposit. This was, however, by far the cheapest price I could find for Reynolds 953 ("stronger than Ti, light as carbon, claims Reynolds). And everyone else wanted to weld the tubes. Maybe I'm just old fahsioned, but in my day, welded meant weakened.
Anyway, it doesn't sound as though anyone's had bad experiences with Bob Jackson's frames (or that anyone's riding them, either) maybe I should post in the "vintage" forum?....


----------



## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

Ever heard of http://www.frameforum.net?


----------



## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

theres a couple google indexed archived threads on bikeforums.net that would seem to indicate BJ ultimately does deliver a very nice frame but doesn't make the experience overly pleasurable. your CC company probably had enough people tire of the wait and file chargebacks that they stopped paying out to them. no personal experience at all though, so take that with necessary salt.


----------



## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

You need to contact Bob Jackson to work this out. It certainly can't be good for BJ if credit card companies are not allowing charges to BJ. Perhaps you have another CC that will allow the charge? There are other ways to pay (cash advance on the CC with electronic bank transfer from your checking account, check by snail mail, etc.) if you need/want to put it on your CC. BJ should work this out for you.


----------



## Mallard4 (Nov 3, 2007)

Thanks....
I've already been through the terrible customer service part; Donald at BJ said "a few more weeks," and I didn't hear from him agian until I I e-mailed him 4 months later. That will, I guess, be tolerable if the build-quality and 953 are as good as I hoped....
I hope the awful c.s. is the only problem. If it seems like that's the case, I'll try with another payment method (live chickens, maybe...)


----------



## Mallard4 (Nov 3, 2007)

Thanks.
Great site! I hadn't heard of it.I'm now their newest member.


----------



## idris icabod (Feb 7, 2005)

You are talking about the Bob Jackson in Leeds, UK right? I don't think the name has been sold and they still trade out of the original shop. I am originally from that area in the UK and have never heard a story about a customer being ripped off and I know a lot of people who ride these frames. I say ring them up, it sounds a bit dodgy that a CC company would black list someone, it sounds to me that it is a problem with some cock up at the CC company. 

If you do get ripped off, I am due to fly back over to Manchester and drive to Hull in February, so I would be happy to pop into the shop in Leeds and give them a good hiding on your behalf.

Make sure you post some pictures, I love Bob Jackson's shops work.


----------



## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

"Maybe I'm just old fahsioned, but in my day, welded meant weakened."

Back in the stone age (60's, 70's & 80's) Too much heat would weaken steel, or even cause eventual cracks. Modern steels love heat. Modern steels are tougher, stronger, and because of that, can be drawn into larger diameter, lighter tubesets. A modern steel frame can easily weigh 3 1/2 pounds, and a lightweight steel frame can weigh 3 pounds. (and this is without weight restrictions on the rider's part)
When you read....."stronger than Ti, light as carbon, claims Reynolds"....You can smell the BS. Yes, stronger than some Ti, but no, not as light as carbon. Carbon frames can always be a pound lighter than steel. On the other hand, many carbon frames weigh 2 1/2 to almost 3 pounds. 
My opinion of 953 is that it is somewhat of a fad. There is nothing wrong with it, but the costs far outweigh any weight savings. (same for Ti) Steel bikes should be painted. Reynolds needs to a more modern steel like it's "first generation heat loving" 853, without the hugh price increase that 953 has.


----------



## Godwhacker (Jan 16, 2010)

idris icabod said:


> You are talking about the Bob Jackson in Leeds, UK right? I don't think the name has been sold and they still trade out of the original shop. I am originally from that area in the UK and have never heard a story about a customer being ripped off and I know a lot of people who ride these frames. I say ring them up, it sounds a bit dodgy that a CC company would black list someone, it sounds to me that it is a problem with some cock up at the CC company.
> 
> If you do get ripped off, I am due to fly back over to Manchester and drive to Hull in February, so I would be happy to pop into the shop in Leeds and give them a good hiding on your behalf.
> 
> Make sure you post some pictures, I love Bob Jackson's shops work.


Bit late on this but I can clarify certain things. Bob Jackson sold the business (in the 80's?) to a guy in the music industry named Jake Riviera (who also owned Hetchin's). In 1989 I made an unsuccessful attempt to buy it JR but, not long afterwards, Bob Jackson bought the business back. BJ died a few years later and the business passed into the hands of the current management who modernised it (and, boy, did it need that?) and moved it from the premises in Harehills Lane to another part of the city, Bramley. I'd be very surprised if there were any financial 'issues' surrounding this company.


----------



## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Jigs are often used merely for assembling the tubes and temporarily holding them together with small, spot brazes or welds. After that, some builders DO remove the frame from the jig and "free braze" it, using a specific pattern or sequence to keep the frame in alignment after it's cooled. Both methods have their proponents. As for Reynolds 753, it was Reynolds' first heat treated tubing and was so strong, and brittle, that it couldn't be cold set to align it for it would likely crack. It had nothing to do with the assembly method, but it HAD to be built straight because you couldn't align it after it cooled. This is one reason why Reynolds required builders to submit a sample frame of 753 before being approved to build with it. Silver brazing with 753 was a necessity because the higher temps of brass brazing would doom 753.

You from the U.S.? I hope you'll post photos and a report about your experience with Bob Jackson when you finally get the frame. You obviously had some very specific requests that only Bob Jackson could fulfill, and I give you credit for ordering a frame from so far away when there are many U.S. builders that could build a quality product. That's not to bash Bob Jackson; their frames are beautiful and definitely have a unique, signature appearance and your frame will definitely stand out. I have a friend who bought a Bob Jackson, Reynolds 531, from Colorado Cyclist, many years ago when they were available in their catalog. It's a stunning combination of black, neon yellow, and white lug outlining. British frames such as Bob Jackson and Mercian ooze style with their finishes.


----------



## Tiff2 (Aug 23, 2011)

*Rum do at BJs*

I had a rum do at BJs. I phoned to enquire if some routine maintenance had been completed and distinctly heard the recipient of my call shout back to another (the mechanic, I presumed). The reply was yes and that it was £15. Whoever was on the phone proceeded to tell me the bill was £30. I went round, enquired about the cost and was assured it was correct although there was definitely something going on between the two of them. When I got home I found an invoice under the saddle that said £15. I phoned to complain and told them they could keep my money and that I would keep my business - the whole thing left a really bad taste. I have no doubt that the framebuilders upstairs are as good as it gets, but the dude I dealt with certainly didn't inspire confidence. Haven't been back since. At the moment the shop is empty, but I couldn't tell you why.


----------



## Jetmugg (Sep 22, 2010)

Charge-backs are not exactly uncommon with "custom" work like this in the CC industry. They have probably had a lot of customers ask for charge-backs due to lengthy wait times, poor communications, or generally poor service. Where this gets a little sticky is when the period of time gets to be too long (as it sounds like it probably is in your case). CC companies don't like to get requests for charge-backs on transactions which took place 6 or more months ago, so that leads to the CC company no longer approving charges to that vendor.


----------

