# advice for lightweight climbing wheel set needed



## mauiguy (Sep 7, 2011)

I'm planning on doing the cycle to the sun race next year in Maui. It is a 36 mile climb rising from sea level to 10,000 ft. I'm 160 pounds right now but hope to be down to 150-155 by race date. I'm looking for a specialty climbing wheel set just for this race. The Maui roads are a little rough so I'll be training on my regular clinchers and just pulling my new wheels out for the race. It's pretty windy here on Maui so I dont want to get to deep a rim the last thing I want is to get blown off the road into the volcanic rock which litters the top of the course. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## roadriderR5 (Jan 12, 2011)

You better give some us some idea of a price range. This could get very expensive.....


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

The best price will probably be a wheel with Alpha 340 rims. You can get them down to about 1200 grams with 20f/24r spokes and Alchemy hubs. You can even go down to 18 spokes on the front if you want to save another 10 grams.

For considerably more money, you can consider ENVE 25 rims which will lower the weight to about 1000 grams.


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## vontress (Jul 19, 2009)

10,000 ft in 36 miles. That's crazy steep. Forget the wheels, you need a helicopter. What's the steepest point. Sorry no real help for you, just amazed at some people can do.


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## mauiguy (Sep 7, 2011)

I'd be interested in a broad range of ideas from $500 - $2000 yes I know the upper limit is as much as i paid for my bike. a fellow competitor told me he switched to a 1200 gr pair of chinese carbon wheels and it shaved 20 min of his time. I don't mind paying for perfomance but am not to keen on paying for a fancy paint job or brand name. These wheels just have to get my up the mountain a couple times as quickly/ easily as possible.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Clincher? Tubular?

The lightest clincher rims are Stans 340s and American Classic 350s, both aluminum rims that weigh about 360g.

With tubulars you can get carbon low profile carbon rims well below 300g. A sub 1k gram wheelset is possible where getting below 1250g with the clinchers would be difficult.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

mauiguy said:


> a fellow competitor told me he switched to a 1200 gr pair of chinese carbon wheels and it shaved 20 min of his time.


I bet almost all of that 20 minutes is due to training. Another suggestion, even though it adds a little weight is to use a power meter to help pace yourself up the climb.


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## mauiguy (Sep 7, 2011)

It would be my first set of tubulars but I'm not against it


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mauiguy said:


> a fellow competitor told me he switched to a 1200 gr pair of chinese carbon wheels and it shaved 20 min of his time.


I don't often call bullshit around here but tonight I do. Unless he used some ungodly heavy wheels for the first ride, there is no-way any wheelset alone would shave 20 minutes off anything.

BTW - for a quest like this, go with nothing but tubular tires as even reasonably priced tubular rims will be lighter than expensive clincher rims. And weight will be everything. Forget any deep section rims as aero won't come into it.


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

originally posted by *vontress*


> 10,000 ft in 36 miles. That's crazy steep. Forget the wheels, you need a helicopter. What's the steepest point. Sorry no real help for you, just amazed at some people can do.


It's not that bad. Only 5% average. Of course in reality it probably wont be a 5% grade for 36 miles. Never done it so I can't say for sure.


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

That's pretty good effort.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

Better be prepaired for rain and cold on the top. Last time I tried it was sunny and warm at the start but had to turn around at 7000 ft because I hit a cold rain. I would bring arm and leg warmers and rain jacket.


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## mauiguy (Sep 7, 2011)

Not defending his claim but he said his time went from 5 hours to 4:40 which I believe is a 6.6% difference, although my math skills have been eroding quickly


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

mauiguy said:


> fellow competitor told me he switched to a 1200 gr pair of chinese carbon wheels and it shaved 20 min of his time.


pure fantasy.

Come on, buying a (possibly expensive) pair of wheels just for one race ? 

Built yourself a wheelset out of kinlin xr200 (clincher - 375gr) or tb-25 (tubular - 415g) with 20/24 aerolite/cxray/aero424 spokes and good but cheap taiwanese hubs from bikehubstore or possibly amc micro 58 front + road 205. 

You will end up with a light aluminium wheelset ranging from 1200 to 1450gr. You can go slightly under the kilogram barrier by using 22mm generic carbon tubular rims.

Cost ranging from 300$ to 900$ shipping cost and tires not included.

But do yourself a favor and go with 38mm tubular carbon rims instead of ultralight 22mm and use them all year long. They will be good all around wheels. I built that and I end up with a very nice 1200gr tubular wheelset and it cost me 550$. I use them for both training and racing.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

T0mi said:


> But do yourself a favor and go with 38mm tubular carbon rims instead of ultralight 22mm and use them all year long. They will be good all around wheels. I built that and I end up with a very nice 1200gr tubular wheelset and it cost me 550$. I use them for both training and racing.


Why not Zipp 202 Tubulars then? 30mm depth, lightweight (sub 1000g not including skewers).
Or some Zipp 303 FC Tubulars.. 38mm depth, ~110 grams heavier than 202s...


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

jsedlak said:


> Why not Zipp 202 Tubulars then? 30mm depth, lightweight (sub 1000g not including skewers).
> Or some Zipp 303 FC Tubulars.. 38mm depth, ~110 grams heavier than 202s...


A zipp 202 wheelset seems a bit overpriced for one single race. At least with a 303 wheelset he could enjoy the wheels in every type of races/rides.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Claimed advantages aside...
There are two hoops worth considering if your looking for a featherweight.
The ENVE 1.25 and the Reynolds MV32
Either can go sub 1000 grams pretty easily.
A pair of ENVE 1.25s built 20/28 into some Alchemys would be about 1015 grams.
At your weight with this spoke count and this hub combo I think that this would be a great blend of light weight, performance, and durability. 

If you are on more of a budget you could do a clincher build with some Alpha 340s.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

something like this

Bontrager xxx lite Carbon Tubular Wheelset | eBay


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Simple physics*



mauiguy said:


> Not defending his claim but he said his time went from 5 hours to 4:40 which I believe is a 6.6% difference, although my math skills have been eroding quickly


Just for reference, a 150 lb rider putting out 250 watts on a 6% grade will save 32 seconds per hour of climbing by reducing weight by 450 gm (1 lb.). Your friend was faster because he trained for it. If he climbed for 3 hours, a 1 lb. weight reduction would have saved him a minute and 40 seconds. Physics don't lie.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Kerry Irons said:


> Just for reference, a 150 lb rider putting out 250 watts on a 6% grade will save 32 seconds per hour of climbing by reducing weight by 450 gm (1 lb.). Your friend was faster because he trained for it. If he climbed for 3 hours, a 1 lb. weight reduction would have saved him a minute and 40 seconds. Physics don't lie.


How does this take into account the rotational mass part of the equation? What equation are you using to calculate that time difference?


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

jsedlak said:


> How does this take into account the rotational mass part of the equation? What equation are you using to calculate that time difference?


Who really cares ?

When you change your equipment, 90% of your increase/decrease of performance comes from the psychological factor.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Rotational mass only effects starting and stopping. This is a continous hillclimb, so it would make little difference unless you plan to attack other competitors repeatedly during the climb.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Taking account*



jsedlak said:


> How does this take into account the rotational mass part of the equation? What equation are you using to calculate that time difference?


As nightfend stated, rim/tire rotational weight is only different from the rest of the bike and rider when your speed is changing. If you increase rim/tire weight, then it takes more energy to accelerate and you lose speed more slowly when you reduce power input because that energy has been stored in the rotating mass. None of this has anything to do with average speed during a climb. 

At steady speed it makes no difference where the weight is in the system - only total weight is meaningful. If you are constantly accelerating and decelerating, a shift in mass to the rim/tire would still not be meaningful as you get back any energy stored in the rotating wheel.

It's still simple physics.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

T0mi said:


> Who really cares ?
> 
> When you change your equipment, 90% of your increase/decrease of performance comes from the psychological factor.



What kinds of theories are you using for measuring 90% change in performance?


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## sneakyracer (Dec 1, 2007)

I would look for a stiff wheel that has a high quality hub with good quality bearings that wastes little of your power by flexing and or rolling resistance. On such a long climb that makes a huge difference. Dude to the possibility of strong winds I wouldnt go with a wheel with a rim section deeper than 30mm or so. 

I would value all that rather than weight as long as the wheelset is reasonably light (1400-1700g)


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## nor_cal_rider (Dec 18, 2006)

ewitz said:


> something like this
> 
> Bontrager xxx lite Carbon Tubular Wheelset | eBay


+1 - I picked up a pair of the clinchers with Bontrager's 5 yr warranty. Nice for a CF rim.

Also tried a pair of Easton EC 90SL's - rode ok, but not that much lighter than my light scanduim clinchers. The Easton's are currently sitting in the LBS on consignment.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

What about these? Alpha Pro Wheelset

Anyone know anything about them? Good? Bad? Only 1200 grams...


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

jsedlak said:


> Good? Bad? Only 1200 grams...


BAD! The hoops are great and I build with them all the time but the hubs are crap! American Classic hubs are simply the least durable hubs on the market. They are the unfortunate owners of that title... The only people that I EVER suggest ride those hub are extremely light weight women. If you weigh over 120lbs you ARE too heavy to ride them. On top of their poor durability they have terrible flange spacing and build mushy wheels. I have built less than 10 sets all of which were for light weight women but I will never suggest them for a male who weighs more than a 14 year old...


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

jsedlak said:


> What about these? Alpha Pro Wheelset
> 
> Anyone know anything about them? Good? Bad? Only 1200 grams...


I only met one person who rides the Alpha Pro factory wheelset. He came to me with a broken spoke on the NDS of the rear wheel, and told me that he always has to true them. He probably weighs about 150lbs and is hard on wheels (rides through potholes, etc), so he should have gone with a higher spoke count. Even though he has experienced issues, he said he likes the way they ride, especially with tubeless tires. His wheels are probably one of the earliest Pro wheels to be built.

I weigh about 145lbs and am riding a 20f/24r spoke count with different hubs than the Alpha Pro wheelset, and they seem to be fine so far.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Zen Cyclery said:


> BAD!


AC had a run of bad hubs 5 or so years ago. At least that's what they say. I have an older AC 350 rear that's been reliable in the 3000 or so miles I've used it for. It is a flexy wheel though, even with 32 spokes. I can bounce the rim off the brake pads at will and I weigh 142 lbs.

Their new hubs have 2:1 spoking and a far left NDS flange. Perhaps that will adress the lateral stiffness issue.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

So, is this race a climb only or are you descending also? If bombing down a mountain at speed them you are going to want to make sure the wheels are plenty strong. I've put about 300 miles on my new Zen Wheels built with Kinlin 270 rims and Alchemy hubs. They came in right around 1440 with the rim tape installed and seem plenty light and stiff during the 30 miles or so of climbing I've done with them. Also have done well on the descents with smooth braking at speed with no shudder. This is important when you descend at speeds in the 40-50 mph range. Spun out a 52.2 mph on these the other day and they were plenty solid.


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## enzo269 (May 25, 2009)

I just say buy a pair of Obermayer Lightweight Ventoux's, attack the climb like Pantani and win the whole damn thing!


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

I just noticed a new(?) Kinlin XR-19W rim that weighs 410 grams and is a little wider than a XR-200. Has anyone tried it? Perhaps it is another rim option to consider.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

valleycyclist said:


> Kinlin XR-19W rim that weighs 410 grams and is a little wider than a XR-200. Has anyone tried it?


Ahh good eye Valley Cyclist. I just got a few pairs of those in the mail! I built some up just today and from what I can see they build nice wheels. Seems to me that they are the 200s but just a shade wider. The eyelets are an interesting addition as well. I suspect that they are going to essentially provide the same durability as the 200s but for riders who would like a rim that is a little bit wider.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

It is rather easy to calculate how much you would save

Bike Calculator

Output being equal you would save about 1:20 per pound on that climb. 

Wheels might save 2-3 minutes but I doubt much more then that.


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## trievo (Sep 14, 2011)

I have the Spinergy Aero Lights which are reasonably priced but have found the wheels are not as stiff as I like. The spox spokes seem spongy.


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## albertabeef (May 15, 2011)

I'm looking at a lighter weight wheelset for climbing also, but did a few things first which you may also want to try:

Find your most optimal fore-aft seating position for climbing. May sound silly, but my climbing speed on one steep hill in my neighborhood increased from 14.5km/h to 16km/h by changing my seating position. Interestingly enough though, while an optimal position for climbing, it's not as comfortable for me on long flat rides... I do the majority of my climbing while seated with my hands on the tops of my bar, with a slight forward-pulling motion of my upper-body and a steady spin of my legs. On extremely long climbs I switch to a higher gear and stand for 20 revolutions every couple of minutes to change-up my position. On medium climbs I stand for the last 1/4 of the climb. That gives me my best overall climbing speed/times.

Swapped to lighter tires (and tubes) with optimal pressure. Lighter rotational weight climbs faster, period. Rims and tires will get you there, but tires/tubes are the cheapest of the options. Also, having the right pressure for your tire AND your weight really helps. Minimize that contact patch to reduce rolling resistance.

Train. And then train some more. Good Lawd I hate climbing hills. So I've been doing it more lately because I'm a huge middle-aged guy and I know it's critical to climbing success. Remember that steep hill that I know climb at 16km/h? I was climbing it at 10.5km/h a while back...

Good luck, sounds like a tough 36 miles...


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## albertabeef (May 15, 2011)

I'm looking at a lighter weight wheelset for climbing also, but did a few things first which you may also want to try:

Find your most optimal fore-aft seating position for climbing. May sound silly, but my climbing speed on one steep hill in my neighborhood increased from 14.5km/h to 16km/h by changing my seating position. Interestingly enough though, while an optimal position for climbing, it's not as comfortable for me on long flat rides... I do the majority of my climbing while seated with my hands on the tops of my bar, with a slight forward-pulling motion of my upper-body and a steady spin of my legs. On extremely long climbs I switch to a higher gear and stand for 20 revolutions every couple of minutes to change-up my position. On medium climbs I stand for the last 1/4 of the climb. That gives me my best overall climbing speed/times.

Swapped to lighter tires (and tubes) with optimal pressure. Lighter rotational weight climbs faster, period. Rims and tires will get you there, but tires/tubes are the cheapest of the options. Also, having the right pressure for your tire AND your weight really helps. Minimize that contact patch to reduce rolling resistance.

Train. And then train some more. Good Lawd I hate climbing hills. So I've been doing it more lately because I'm a huge middle-aged guy and I know it's critical to climbing success. Remember that steep hill that I know climb at 16km/h? I was climbing it at 10.5km/h a while back...

Good luck, sounds like a tough 36 miles...


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