# The Armstrong Lie - Lance's claim about doping in the 2000 tour



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

I watched The Armstrong Lie this past weekend. One of the things that struck me is that he claimed he only used a single blood transfusion during the 2000 tour. The reason for this being that Michele Ferrari said they had developed a test for EPO. He also claimed that he didn't 'really' need the transfusion because he had already won on the Hautacam (I think?) by 4 minutes. Armstrong also continually claims that he had to dope to compete. All of this just doesn't add up. 

How could he have kept up with his competitors? Did the whole peloton declare an EPO armistice in 2000? Did he juice so much during his training permanent physical adaptations allowed him to win?

Just curious to see people's thoughts.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

So he loaded up his hct prior to the race but did not use EPO during the event. And he transfused once. I'm no hematologist but that sounds like a full regimen to me. How many transfusions do you think a person needs in 3 weeks?


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> So he loaded up his hct prior to the race but did not use EPO during the event. And he transfused once. I'm no hematologist but that sounds like a full regimen to me. How many transfusions do you think a person needs in 3 weeks?


According to Hamilton's book they would generally do 2 transfusions during the tour along with EPO, testosterone, and HGH if I recall correctly.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

They gradually refined the transfusion protocol after 2000. Tyler was referring to years after 2000 I think.


----------



## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

deviousalex said:


> I watched The Armstrong Lie this past weekend. One of the things that struck me is that he claimed he only used a single blood transfusion during the 2000 tour.












I ain't buying what this guy is selling.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> I watched The Armstrong Lie this past weekend. One of the things that struck me is that he claimed he only used a single blood transfusion during the 2000 tour. The reason for this being that Michele Ferrari said they had developed a test for EPO. He also claimed that he didn't 'really' need the transfusion because he had already won on the Hautacam (I think?) by 4 minutes. Armstrong also continually claims that he had to dope to compete. All of this just doesn't add up.
> 
> How could he have kept up with his competitors? Did the whole peloton declare an EPO armistice in 2000? Did he juice so much during his training permanent physical adaptations allowed him to win?
> 
> Just curious to see people's thoughts.


The reason he did not need to do it was because nobody else was doing transfusions. 

The EPO test came in 2000 and scared many from using it. The few riders who did use transfusions took several years before they started 2003/2004

So much for that "Level Playing Field" nonsense


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> The reason he did not need to do it was because nobody else was doing transfusions.


Seeing how the 1984 US Olympic team used it to much success I figured transfusions would have been standard practice by then, guess not.


----------



## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

deviousalex said:


> Seeing how the 1984 US Olympic team used it to much success I figured transfusions would have been standard practice by then, guess not.


Interesting read. 

A history on the use of blood transfusions in cycling | Cycling News


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> Seeing how the 1984 US Olympic team used it to much success I figured transfusions would have been standard practice by then, guess not.


No. largely due to storage and transportation issues it was not used in Grand Tours.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> No. largely due to storage and transportation issues it was not used in Grand Tours.


The yogurt went bad.


----------



## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

deviousalex said:


> Seeing how the 1984 US Olympic team used it to much success I figured transfusions would have been standard practice by then, guess not.


Once EPO was available, the expense and complexities of transfusions fell out of favor. When the EPO test was developed, riders went back to transfusions, as well as a more sophisticated doping program to allow them to use a variety of banned substances, make large gains, and avoid detection.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Alaska Mike said:


> Once EPO was available, the expense and complexities of transfusions fell out of favor. When the EPO test was developed, riders went back to transfusions, as well as a more sophisticated doping program to allow them to use a variety of banned substances, make large gains, and avoid detection.


I agree. Transfusions fell out when EPO arrived and the reappeared after testing protocols
Joop blood doped, my guess is he wasn't alone
Eddie B of 84 olympic fame still coaches here in San Diego


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> I agree. Transfusions fell out when EPO arrived and the reappeared after testing protocols
> Joop blood doped, my guess is he wasn't alone
> Eddie B of 84 olympic fame still coaches here in San Diego


Joop did not blood dope during the Tour. Because of his anemia he did one transfusion prior to the Tour and was so disgusted by it he swore he would never do it again.


----------



## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

For anyone who hasn't been able to see it yet:

The Armstrong Lie (2013) 720p BluRay x264 Download + Online Streaming

^Not spam. You can't even find this on Netflix right now.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Joop did not blood dope during the Tour. Because of his anemia he did one transfusion prior to the Tour and was so disgusted by it he swore he would never do it again.


Joop admitted on TV to taking a transfusion after winning the 10th stage of the 76 tour. (wasn't illegal at the time)

and the '77 TdF pemoline positive? and the '79 Hormone/ Steroid positive? '83 Nandrolon (this was retracted)

"I didn't like it, so I stopped" haven't heard that one before


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> No. largely due to storage and transportation issues it was not used in Grand Tours.


Can we all agree that it was a logistics issue and had nothing to do with ethics, morals or rules?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> Joop admitted on TV to taking a transfusion after winning the 10th stage of the 76 tour. (wasn't illegal at the time)
> 
> and the '77 TdF pemoline positive? and the '79 Hormone/ Steroid positive? '83 Nandrolon (this was retracted)
> 
> "I didn't like it, so I stopped" haven't heard that one before


He did not stop doping, just transfusions. The guy was a rolling pharmacy


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> He did not stop doping, just transfusions. The guy was a rolling pharmacy


you said he didn't blood dope during the tour
I showed you he did, that's all

they all were rolling pharmacies. Bjarne was doped to the gills for his TdF as I am sure Jan was the year after. I don't think Telekom suddenly got clean in 1998


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> you said he didn't blood dope during the tour
> I showed you he did, that's all
> 
> they all were rolling pharmacies. Bjarne was doped to the gills for his TdF as I am sure Jan was the year after. I don't think Telekom suddenly got clean in 1998


We can go back and forth on this all day. I have seen it both ways, that he took a transfusion the day before he won Alp dHuez but also what he actually said, that he had a transfusion just prior to the Tour due to anemia issues he had most of the season. 

BTW, Riis did not transfuse in the 96 Tour. This was a lie designed to make Tyler feel comfortable with transfusions, he had lied to Riis and told him he never used them. Riis' program during the 96 Tour was well documented by team soigneur Jeff d'Hont. Jef had his notes from the Tour and said that Riis took twice as much EPO and HGH then the other riders. His Hct was 64%. He would have no need for transfusions. 

The Telekom program is well detailed in the Freiburg report, the only mention of Transfusions was when they discussed how they thought they were too risky. They finally started using them in 2004, 4 years after USPS. Their program was so conservative Ullrich did not use them after 97, he did his own program.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Riis took twice as much EPO and HGH then the other riders. His Hct was 64%. He would have no need for transfusions.


My god, that must be near stroke levels =/


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> My god, that must be near stroke levels =/


Riis really pushed the envelop. 

When USADA says Lance/Ferrari were the "Most advanced" doping program in history and Lance says they were "conservative" both were right. 

Before the 50% rule and EPO test riders like Riis were able to push it to the extremes. in 1996 Riis was taking 4,000 IUs of EPO every 3 days and 2 doses of HGH. It was not sophisticated, It was about how large a risk a rider was willing to take


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Riis really pushed the envelop.
> 
> When USADA says Lance/Ferrari were the "Most advanced" doping program in history and Lance says they were "conservative" both were right.
> 
> Before the 50% rule and EPO test riders like Riis were able to push it to the extremes. in 1996 Riis was taking 4,000 IUs of EPO every 3 days and 2 doses of HGH. It was not sophisticated, It was about how large a risk a rider was willing to take


Where are you getting these numbers?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> Where are you getting these numbers?


Jef d'Hont's book. It was also in the Freiburg report. It is interesting to note that while Riis was at 64% the Festina doctors would not allow riders to take their Hct over 55%


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Mr 60% indeed.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> We can go back and forth on this all day. I have seen it both ways, that he took a transfusion the day before he won Alp dHuez but also what he actually said, that he had a transfusion just prior to the Tour due to anemia issues he had most of the season.
> 
> BTW, Riis did not transfuse in the 96 Tour. This was a lie designed to make Tyler feel comfortable with transfusions, he had lied to Riis and told him he never used them. Riis' program during the 96 Tour was well documented by team soigneur Jeff d'Hont. Jef had his notes from the Tour and said that Riis took twice as much EPO and HGH then the other riders. His Hct was 64%. He would have no need for transfusions.
> 
> The Telekom program is well detailed in the Freiburg report, the only mention of Transfusions was when they discussed how they thought they were too risky. They finally started using them in 2004, 4 years after USPS. Their program was so conservative Ullrich did not use them after 97, he did his own program.


well aware. When I said Riis was doped I was not meaning 'blood doped'
he was the king of EPO as you so illustrate


----------



## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Just saw the documentary this past weekend. So in 2000 Lance didn't do EPO in competition - fine - but what about after that? There was a lot of talk about Micro-dosing - but I don't know when it actually started in the peleton. Does anyone know if it was pre or post LA?


----------



## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

Just saw the documentary and I really liked it. To non cyclist the movie will play much better as a movie about power/ego instead of doping (heck, that's a given). My favorite scene was when Lance looked on in horror when he started getting bumped off the top position in the 2009 Prolog.


----------

