# crankset that gives 42mm chainline?



## dougmint

I am building up a road fixie, using the Swobo Sanchez frameset. I purchased an Origin-8 Track/SS Crank - the one shown here:

Products Description – ORIGIN-8

I purchased this from Harris Cyclery.

And I purchased an Origin-8 68x103 bb. This set up gave a 48mm chainline. When I moved the chainring to the inside of the spider, I got a 42mm chainline. But the crankset that I received from Harris had the chainring mounted on the outside.

Why would they show it mounted on the outside of the spider on their website, and list it as giving a 42mm chainline, but the buyer has to move the chainring to the inside?

So any ~$100 crankset/BB's out there that will give 42mm chainline with chainring on the outside of the spider?

thanks, Doug


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## axlenut

Hi, looks like my WABI Classic has a 42 MM; however, I can't tell who made the darn thing. Maybe send a note to Richard at WABI?

A quick google search shows the Sugino RD2 Single Speed Crankset as having a 42MM chainline; however, the site that I found the spec on also lists the crank you have now as 42 so I don't know what up with that.

Hope this helps, Axlenut


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## dougmint

axlenut said:


> Hi, looks like my WABI Classic has a 42 MM; however, I can't tell who made the darn thing. Maybe send a note to Richard at WABI?
> 
> A quick google search shows the Sugino RD2 Single Speed Crankset as having a 42MM chainline; however, the site that I found the spec on also lists the crank you have now as 42 so I don't know what up with that.
> 
> Hope this helps, Axlenut


Thanks for trying, but doesn't help much. The Sugino RD2 gives a 45mm chainline, per Sugino's website, and that is w/ a 103mm BB. If the chainring is put on the inside of the spider, and a 107mm BB is used, it might be 42mm chainline, but I am trying to find a setup where the chainring is on the outside of the spider.

I have emailed Harris Cyclery about the fact that they advertise the Origin 8 as having a 42mm chainline, but that it is not the case without changing the chainring position. I am awaiting a response from them.


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## markaitch

are those cranks & bb both the same re iso vs jis?

per sheldon:
ISO/J.I.S. Interchangeability
If you install an ISO crank on a J.I.S. spindle, it will sit about 4.5 mm farther out than it would on an ISO spindle of the same length.
Conversely, if you install a J.I.S. crank on an ISO spindle, it will wind up about 4.5 mm farther in than it would on a J.I.S spindle of the same length.


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## dougmint

markaitch said:


> are those cranks & bb both the same re iso vs jis?
> 
> per sheldon:
> ISO/J.I.S. Interchangeability
> If you install an ISO crank on a J.I.S. spindle, it will sit about 4.5 mm farther out than it would on an ISO spindle of the same length.
> Conversely, if you install a J.I.S. crank on an ISO spindle, it will wind up about 4.5 mm farther in than it would on a J.I.S spindle of the same length.


From what I can tell, both the Origin-8 crankset and the Origin-8 BB are JIS. I've read that there really aren't any manufacturers out there that are still making ISO square taper stuff.


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## wim

axlenut said:


> Hi, looks like my WABI Classic has a 42 MM; however, I can't tell who made the darn thing. Maybe send a note to Richard at WABI?


Andel.

ANDEL ENTERPRISE CO.,LTD.


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## wim

dougmint said:


> Why would they show it mounted on the outside of the spider on their website, and list it as giving a 42mm chainline, but the buyer has to move the chainring to the inside?


Just for laughs: the first Bianchi Pista "fixie" I saw (I think it was 1998) had its 48T chainring mounted on the outside of the spider, which threw off the chainline. When moved to the inside, the chainline was perfect. But in that position, the teeth of the 48T scraped the chainstay during out-of-the-saddle pedaling!


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## dougmint

wim said:


> Just for laughs: the first Bianchi Pista "fixie" I saw (I think it was 1998) had its 48T chainring mounted on the outside of the spider, which threw off the chainline. When moved to the inside, the chainline was perfect. But in that position, the teeth of the 48T scraped the chainstay during out-of-the-saddle pedaling!


I also have an older ('02 I think) Bianchi Pista, and I just noticed that the chanring is mounted on the outside of the spider, and the chainline is way out there. I may try to move it to the inside and see what happens. Or maybe check a shorter BB.


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## FatTireFred

how about a bb w/ shorter spindle? 
or just leave it on the inside position?


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## dougmint

FatTireFred said:


> how about a bb w/ shorter spindle?
> or just leave it on the inside position?


I don't think I can get a spindle shorter than 103mm. Also, for appearance purposes, I'd like to have the chainring on the outside of the spider. Additionally, the chainring has slight recesses for the chainring bolts. If I mount the chainring on the inside of the spider, the recesses are pushed up against the spider, and not utilized by the bolts. Probably a minor deal, but maybe it would cause squeeking.


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## Cbookman

The SRAM S300 i just measured on my SS has a ~42mm chain line.


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## UrbanPrimitive

White Industries Eno comes out to 43mm with a 103mm bottom bracket. That's certainly within tolerance for a good ride experience, but the price is probably out of your preferred range. There are 102mm bottom brackets out there, but you need to be careful and make sure you won't be sawing through your chainstays. That gets sad rather quickly. Sturmey Archer's track cranks claim to give you the chainline you're looking for with the bottom bracket you have. I can't corroborate that as I've never used one.


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## bb1mina

quick measurement of my sugino messenger crankset (RD2R embossed at the back of the arm, with chainrings mounted outside, 1/8 chainring) + tange JIS taper 103bb spindle = 42mm chainline

if you look it up on the the internet, there are conflicting results

i'll buy a nice caliper and double check it tomorrow


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## blackgriffen_1

bb1mina said:


> quick measurement of my sugino messenger crankset (RD2R embossed at the back of the arm, with chainrings mounted outside, 1/8 chainring) + tange JIS taper 103bb spindle = 42mm chainline
> 
> if you look it up on the the internet, there are conflicting results
> 
> i'll buy a nice caliper and double check it tomorrow


^^^^^This. Sugino Messenger + Sugino 68mm square taper BB (103 mm spindle) + All-City 46t 1/8" chainring gave me a perfect 42mm chainline that lines up with any 120 mm spaced track hub I've tried.


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## dougmint

blackgriffen_1 said:


> ^^^^^This. Sugino Messenger + Sugino 68mm square taper BB (103 mm spindle) + All-City 46t 1/8" chainring gave me a perfect 42mm chainline that lines up with any 120 mm spaced track hub I've tried.


Is chainring mounted on inside or outside of spider?


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## bb1mina

my sugino messenger's 1/8 chainring is mounted on the outside position

make sure you use the recommended tapered BB spindle (ISO or JIS) to get optimal chainline, that is, after you determine the proper spindle length initially; i was lucky enough because sugino recommended the proper spindle length to get the proper chainline, and they were right! 

i got the tange BB because the price is a lot lower than the sugino BB, but quality is still top-notch, and it looks like sugino also uses their bearings

note: just waiting for my nitto b123 crmo bar, spokes, sram s500 levers and r650 brakes so i can finish my steamroller build


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## blackgriffen_1

dougmint said:


> Is chainring mounted on inside or outside of spider?


Outside of the spider, which aesthetically is a win as well, so somebody was thinking something out... :idea:


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## darelldd

*Still trying to find this, years later*

Yes, I realize this thread is several years old. And yet nothing has changed today.

Searching around, I'm astounded to find that nobody has a turn-key solution for a 68mm shell and a 42 mm Chain Line. Is it really that hard? Seems so! Most crank makers won't even tell you what chainline you'll get with what length spindle.

So I read here that folks are using an RD crank and 103bb. With the ring on the outisde, that comes out to 45 mm. This is how my bike started. If I switch to a 107bb, and put the ring on the inside, I have a perfect 42 mm chain line. An ugly crank, and a crank with a wider Q-factor than my geared bikes - but a perfect chain line. This is driving me nuts!

Where are the folks who make drivetrain parts and offer a whole system that gives 42 mm with hub, crank and BB?

White industries (I'm using their rear hub with splined cog) makes some beautiful SS cranks. And when paired with their BB's, you have a choice of a too-wide chain line, or a too-narrow chainline. They make typical track hubs at 42 mm, but make no way for the front to be 42? Their answer for me: Buy an "adjustable" Phil Wood BB.

Paul Component Engineering makes an ISO square taper crank for lots of money. And they suggest a 111 BB to give 44 mm chainline. If these folks are MAKING the components, why do you suppose they don't make them for 42 mm chainline? And who uses ISO any longer?




bb1mina said:


> quick measurement of my sugino messenger crankset (RD2R embossed at the back of the arm, with chainrings mounted outside, 1/8 chainring) + tange JIS taper 103bb spindle = 42mm chainline
> 
> if you look it up on the the internet, there are conflicting results
> 
> i'll buy a nice caliper and double check it tomorrow


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## wim

Send an email to Richard at Wabi cycles. He knows his stuff. Even though there are no cranks on his components page, he'll probably sell you the exact crank and BB you need anyway.


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## darelldd

Good advice. Coupled with the fact that I've purchased a Lightning from him last year.


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## Gregory Taylor

As for who makes a cheap ISO bottom brackets, try Miche. Decent quality for about $30. 

And speaking of Miche, their track bottom bracket (which also comes in a JIS spindle) is "adjustable" like the Phil Wood, i.e the cups don't have stops or shoulders on them. You can cheat it over to one side. The shortest spindle is, I think, 107, which may be too big for you. It is set up for their own crank/hub combo.


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## darelldd

Thanks for the assist.

I had never even heard of Miche before this thread. So it is intended to Locktight their cups in place like Phil Wood? What spacing is their hub? Not 42? I'm still trying to figure out what the single-speed crank makers are shooting for, if not 42.

As for ISO... I know some folks still make them, but it sure seems like a small percentage. And something I don't want to lock myself into.


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## Gregory Taylor

The Miche Primato Pista - when you set it up with the Miche cogs and carrier - is supposed to give a 42.5 chain line. 

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/reviews/hubreview/miche/

I've read (but not actually seen) that the Miche Primato "Advanced" Pista crank doesn't quite give the 42.5 chainline.

As for installing a Miche bottom bracket, I don't use Loctite. If you torque it correctly, it won't back out. What I do highly recommend is to put plenty of anti-sieze or grease on the threads, especially if you have a steel frame. I recommend this anytime you are slapping two dissimilar metals together in a damp environment.

Finally, it's a track bottom bracket, so it isn't as heavily sealed as a bottom bracket intended for regular road use. If you ride it in bad weather, it will eventually croak. I've had good luck with them, however. Nice piece.

One thought for sorting out your issue is that the hub is only one part of the equation when it comes to the rear chainline. Remember: track cogs are NOT identical, and different brands have different offsets. Mix and match doesn't always work predictibly. Sheldon Brown (Rest In Peace) put together a good set of charts where you can predict what your chainline will be if you match up a particular hub with a particular cog. 

For example - a White ENO hub (according to the chart) starts off with a 39mm offset (i.e. center of hub to shoulder where the cog threads on). Add a Surly cog that, according to the chart, adds 6.4 mm from the shoulder, and you have total of 45.4mm for your chain line. 

Chainline on Bicycles without Derailers

Bottom line, on a bike ridden on the street, a 10mm either direction isn't going to make an appreciable difference. You can either (1) ignore it, (2) respace and redish the back wheel (pain in the ass), (3) get a track bottom bracket a la' Miche or Phil, or (5) a mix of all of the above.

Hope that this helps.


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## darelldd

It helps a lot, and I think you for your time.

For my particular situation, the hub and cog really have little to do with this - in that I know what it is (42mm as designed) and I know it won't change (White Industries track hub with splined cogs). Their system - as so many other track hub systems - are set up to be within 0.5mm of 42. My cogs ARE identical, and will not alter the chain line when I change them to another WI splined cog. So for my purposes, that 42 mm chain line is a given, and the crank needs to match it. 

And let me inject here once again how amazed I am. 42 mm track hubs are arguably the most common chain line. 68mm BB shell is arguably the most common shell size. A bazillion people ride single-speed bikes with these two items. Why don't the people who create cranks for the masses NOT make a plug-and-play 42 mm chain line BB/crank combo for this situation? It is no harder than making any other chain line system - and they know what the chain line of their systems are to the mm... OK... end rant.

I admit that I'm a perfectionist. And part of the fixed-gear experience is the amazingly efficient and quiet drivetrain. Part of me just wants it to be "how it should be." I went so far as to have a custom frame made specifically to be fixed-gear. Though I realize that some offset is not the end of the world. (I mean I DO own geared bikes. Some even with triples on the front that can manage some pretty severe offsets!) But that doesn't mean I have to like offset on a bike that should never require it. I can ride with wheels that aren't true as well.... The thing that gets me is that this shouldn't be that hard! Seems like the market is pretty well wide open for somebody who'd like to step in and just make the thing that so many of us seem to want!

As for my options that you mention, I agree, and 1&2 aren't in the running.  What makes the mixing and matching so difficult is that so few of the crank makers will tell me what the Q-factor is, and what chain line is achieved with what BB spindle length. They seem to think that nobody will care or something. Just seems odd to me!


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## darelldd

Gregory Taylor said:


> I do highly recommend is to put plenty of anti-sieze or grease on the threads, especially if you have a steel frame. I recommend this anytime you are slapping two dissimilar metals together in a damp environment.


While I'm a huge fan of anti-sieze, I'm curious about this comment. Are the Miche cups not steel?


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## Gregory Taylor

Actually, there are a lot of track cranks out there that give a 42mm chainline ready to go. While I found most of these on the Velodrome Shop website in the UK (and they do a great job of pairing crank with bb, and other tips for chainline), all of these cranks are available in the US one way or another. 

Stronglight Track 2000 (when paired with a 107mm bb)

Stronglight Track 2000 Chainset from Velodrome Shop

Sugino SG75 (with a 109mm bb)

Sugino SG75 from Velodrome Shop

FSA Gimondi (110mm bb)

FSA Gimondi Single Speed Chainset from Velodrome Shop

IRD Defiant Track (110mm bb)

IRD Defiant Single Speed Crankset – American Cyclery

To steal a page from the X-Files, They Are Out There. All it takes is a little snooping around...


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## Gregory Taylor

Aluminum.

Permatex Anti-sieze is your friend. 

When I install a steel BB into a steel frame, I use teflon plumber's tape. Zero squeaks.


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## Love Commander

darelldd said:


> Searching around, I'm astounded to find that nobody has a turn-key solution for a 68mm shell and a 42 mm Chain Line. Is it really that hard? Seems so! Most crank makers won't even tell you what chainline you'll get with what length spindle.


It's not that it's hard, it's that it doesn't really matter.

A 5mm deflection in chainline from the chainring to the cog is less than a degree. The tolerances in a bike's drive train are forgiving enough for that to not make any difference. There are plenty of people out there running a dingle setup with a single front chainring. There are countless CX racers and MTBers running a single chain ring. While some of them _are _using chain keepers and/or clutch rear derailleurs, your chain tension is going to be fixed so dropping a chain still shouldn't be a problem.

Regardless, if you want that extra bit of peace of mind, which I totally understand, you could always go overboard and get one of these chainrings and put it on practically any crankset you want.

If you're worried about premature wear, then I can't help you there. I have a SRAM 10 speed drive train with thousands of miles on it. I'm a cross-chaining fool and it doesn't show any premature wear. I'm personally convinced all the hand-wringing about cross-chaining and needing everything to be exactly in line is a hold-over from a time when materials and manufacturing wasn't up to today's standards. A heat-treated, hard-anodized chainring will last you thousands of miles even if everything isn't exactly lined up.

Disclaimer: IMO, this is the internet - everyone is an expert, grain of salt, etc.


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## darelldd

Love Commander said:


> It's not that it's hard, it's that it doesn't really matter.


As you are clearly aware, being difficult and being relevant are completely different concepts. No matter if it makes *any* difference in efficiency, wear or noise (the original reason I wanted to straighten the line) - my question still stands: Why is it so hard to have a straight-chain line solution for the most common fixed-gear setup? It is no harder to make a 42 mm chain line crank than it is to make a 38 or 47 mm chain line crank... or any other. So if you're making your own stuff, and if you can divide 68/2 and add 42... I'd think this should be pretty simple. Can anybody argue that it is BETTER to have cross-chaining? The question remains: How come a 42 mm chain line crank isn't being done? The big mfg's are making multiple versions of single-speed cranks... and (effectively) none of them are set up to be 42 mm? Just seems so odd.


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## Love Commander

darelldd said:


> As you are clearly aware, being difficult and being relevant are completely different concepts.


I'm not really sure what this is referring to. I wasn't being difficult, merely engaging in a discussion about chain lines.



darelldd said:


> No matter if it makes *any* difference in efficiency, wear or noise (the original reason I wanted to straighten the line) - my question still stands: Why is it so hard to have a straight-chain line solution for the most common fixed-gear setup? It is no harder to make a 42 mm chain line crank than it is to make a 38 or 47 mm chain line crank... or any other. So if you're making your own stuff, and if you can divide 68/2 and add 42... I'd think this should be pretty simple. Can anybody argue that it is BETTER to have cross-chaining? The question remains: How come a 42 mm chain line crank isn't being done? The big mfg's are making multiple versions of single-speed cranks... and (effectively) none of them are set up to be 42 mm? Just seems so odd.


Compatibility. 42mm chain line is a track standard. As Gregory Taylor pointed out, track-specific cranks will often be designed for a 42mm chain line. Track frames can handle this because they have a 120mm hub spacing and aren't designed for tires wider than 23mm. There's enough clearance so that the chainring won't contact the chain stay. Once you get away from track-specific frames, you start seeing more variability in frame design. A 42mm chain line might work on one frame, but will almost certainly contact the chain stay on a converted touring frame that's designed to fit 32mm tires plus fenders, for example. If you're a manufacturer and you're stamping out thousands of single-speed cranksets that aren't intended to ever see the inside of a velodrome, it's in your best interest to make sure that it'll work with as many different types of frames as possible. The Sugino RD isn't a track crankset, so it's not designed to track standards.


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## darelldd

Love Commander said:


> I'm not really sure what this is referring to. I wasn't being difficult, merely engaging in a discussion about chain lines.


Oooh. Bad communication on my part. I meant to say:

Regardless of how much a proper chain line *matters* (I called this "relevant") it still doesn't answer why it is so difficult to achieve. This wasn't a comment on your discussion at all, and I apologize for the fact that it came off sounding that way! I'm learning little bits and pieces from everybody.




> Compatibility. 42mm chain line is a track standard. As Gregory Taylor pointed out, track-specific cranks will often be designed for a 42mm chain line. Track frames can handle this because they have a 120mm hub spacing and aren't designed for tires wider than 23mm. There's enough clearance so that the chainring won't contact the chain stay. Once you get away from track-specific frames, you start seeing more variability in frame design. A 42mm chain line might work on one frame, but will almost certainly contact the chain stay on a converted touring frame that's designed to fit 32mm tires plus fenders, for example. If you're a manufacturer and you're stamping out thousands of single-speed cranksets that aren't intended to ever see the inside of a velodrome, it's in your best interest to make sure that it'll work with as many different types of frames as possible. The Sugino RD isn't a track crankset, so it's not designed to track standards.


All excellent points. Yet there are still probably 10's of 1000's of "track" bikes out in the wilds that won't see a velodrome... and folks like me still can't easily find a 42 mm crank. These bikes (including mine, the Wabi models, etc...) have 120 mm hubs, enough chainstay clearance for the ring at 42 mm, and are fully ready for a 42 mm crank. Mine is not a track bike by any means, yet I had it built to accept a track drivetrain on purpose - thinking that was the easiest option to find all the parts I'd need. Apparently I was wrong. With enough digging and enough time, I'm sure I could get both the chain line and Q-factor that I'd like. 

I get the compatibility angle. But.... help! There are common cranks made that'll easily put the chain ring UNDER 42 mm, as I pointed out in my previous post. I can easily do a 38 mm crank. Or a 46 mm crank. And they both work on my bike... as they'd work on countless other single-speed bikes. So from my perspective, this isn't about the manufacturers worrying about the chain ring contacting the chainstays, it's something else. Something I haven't yet figured out. If the manufacturers were so concerned about compatibility, you'd think that they'd list some relevant specs for proper fitment. But so few do. And if they know what chain line they'll get with what BB spindle - why not just go ahead and make one that lines up with a track hub? White Industries is a perfect example. They make a track hub (the one I have on my bike) and they make a track crank. They make (or at least sell) a BB with their brand. NONE of these pieces fit together to create a 42 mm chain line!

I guess I could summarize:
I do get that chain line isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things.
I don't get why I can't more easily have a straight chain line nonetheless.

And the big question remains the same: why is this so hard?


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## darelldd

Gregory Taylor said:


> Actually, there are a lot of track cranks out there that give a 42mm chainline ready to go. While I found most of these on the Velodrome Shop website in the UK (and they do a great job of pairing crank with bb, and other tips for chainline), all of these cranks are available in the US one way or another.


Whoa! For some reason I wasn't notified of your posts... and I just now scrolled up to read them. Thanks for the great resource links!

I've know that they're out there.. and as always, still don't understand why they aren't easier to obtain.


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## darelldd

> Permatex Anti-sieze is your friend.


It goes well beyond mere friendship. And I have a pile of stained clothes to prove it. ;-)


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## serious

Another crank with 42mm chain line is the SRAM Omnium, but it uses the GXP bottom bracket, so there is no room for adjustability. I found that out the hard way, when the crank (not the chain ring itself) hit the chain stay on my frame (Pake French 75, which is a track frame, with rather beefy chain stays). 

I finally went for a Sugino Mighty Comp crank, which is the 130 BCD version of the Sugino 75 single speed crank. It gives a 45mm chain line with the CBBAL-103 bb. Then I built the wheels with Paul hubs that also have a 45mm chain line. It came out perfect but talk about frustrations and additional expenses.


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## Remo

One problem is that you have a tapered axel coming out of the bottom bracket and you have a tapered crank attaching to it. You are doing a press fit, and both have tolerance. Further, you have multiple manufactures. And you haven't even looked at the chainring. It is really hard to design the system so that no matter what you do, you always end up with the same chainline coming off the front chainring.

To get a perfect chainline, you need to look at what has the smallest chainline (rear sprocket) and space it out to meet the bigger chainline of the front sprocket. You move the fixed gear in back by using a freewheel spacer/shim. Wheels Manufacturing makes some: Wheels Mfg Freehub | Freewheel | Cassette Spacers (Also sold by Niagara Cycle). (when making any adjustment, you need to makes sure that you still have enough threads on the locknut side. But you can easily to shim out 3mm without a problem).


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## Blowingsky

*Frame matters*



darelldd said:


> Yes, I realize this thread is several years old. And yet nothing has changed today.
> 
> Searching around, I'm astounded to find that nobody has a turn-key solution for a 68mm shell and a 42 mm Chain Line. Is it really that hard? Seems so! Most crank makers won't even tell you what chainline you'll get with what length spindle.
> 
> So I read here that folks are using an RD crank and 103bb. With the ring on the outisde, that comes out to 45 mm. This is how my bike started. If I switch to a 107bb, and put the ring on the inside, I have a perfect 42 mm chain line. An ugly crank, and a crank with a wider Q-factor than my geared bikes - but a perfect chain line. This is driving me nuts!
> 
> Where are the folks who make drivetrain parts and offer a whole system that gives 42 mm with hub, crank and BB?
> 
> White industries (I'm using their rear hub with splined cog) makes some beautiful SS cranks. And when paired with their BB's, you have a choice of a too-wide chain line, or a too-narrow chainline. They make typical track hubs at 42 mm, but make no way for the front to be 42? Their answer for me: Buy an "adjustable" Phil Wood BB.
> 
> Paul Component Engineering makes an ISO square taper crank for lots of money. And they suggest a 111 BB to give 44 mm chainline. If these folks are MAKING the components, why do you suppose they don't make them for 42 mm chainline? And who uses ISO any longer?


What no one has included into the mix is the frame itself. I have a Swobo Sanchez with a 120mm spacing and a 68mm BB shell and they recommend a 108mm spindle to give a 42.5. wouldn't a frame manufacturer have a big say in result consistency? Now, that said. I am just now building up this frame and have a 44T Sugino Messenger 130mm PCD and 170mm cranks installed on a promax 108 but have not gotten the wheels yet (Mavic CXP 22's). So I haven't tested this out yet. Tune in next week.


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## Blowingsky

My Swobo Sanchez frame conforms to a track standard...or so Swobo says. 120mm rear. They say to put on a 108mm spindle to create a 42.5mm chain line. I bought a ProMax BB with a tapered square 108 spindle. I bought a Sugino Messenger 44T chainwheel and cranks and I put a 16T Shimano freewheel on the hub. All is 1/2 X 1/8 spec'd. I added a KMC 1/8 chain. It all came out to 42.5 mm and is whisper quiet.


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