# ENVE vs Zipp



## Mdrnizd (Oct 21, 2009)

I am looking at buying a set of the new Enve 6.7's and wondering what people think between their products and Zipp's. I have never owned either one but would like to buy a set of tubulars to race on. 

I am also thinking about buying a set of carbon clinchers but don't know about the older Enve's. How are they as a wheel set. Thanks for you help!


----------



## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I have seen too many spokes pull through to trust the Zipps. I have yet to see one Enve rim have a spoke hole failure. Additionally, braking on the 6.7 is far superior to any other rim I have ridden. With that said though, this has yet to be tested in the long term.


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Anecdotal, and not including any Enve wheels:
In a big 42 km/h Norwegian double paceline 540 km TTT, three riders on deep section carbon tubular rims go into the same crater of a hole. The Zipp 404* set is a writeoff (nipples pulled through) whereas the two FFWD F6R sets are ok.
*Dunno if it was the new Firecrest.

For some reason 1 of 3 Zipp wheels I see sound like a washing machine with a loose coin or two in the drum. 

Seems to me that Enve manage to construct their rims with very good spoke load distribution. If cost was no object I'd get Enve instead of the multiple well engineered Taiwanese and Chinese rims I'm considering for my deep section build.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

There's no comparison. Enve are the better rim. If you were to get your hands on each I think you'd agree. Granted a visual inspection doesn't necessarily mean anything but it's pretty obvious. Start by looking at the molded vs drilled holes.
Zipps may be more aero. They may not be. I have no idea on that but the difference wont be enough to trump the quality difference.


----------



## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

In the past, I would have chosen wheels from HED or Zipp, the masters (and toroid patent holders) of aero design. Now that the patent has expired, and Enve has made an effort to make their rims more aero, my choice might be based more on value and durability more than aero design.

Enve wheels: can "aero" get any quicker?
Enve Wheels: Can "aero" Get Any Quicker? - BikeRadar


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I have seen too many spokes pull through to trust the Zipps. I have yet to see one Enve rim have a spoke hole failure. Additionally, braking on the 6.7 is far superior to any other rim I have ridden. With that said though, this has yet to be tested in the long term.


You know, I'd really like to know in what capacity you saw all those failures. You aren't a Zipp dealer. You've only been in business for a few years.

Which rims? Did you take any pictures?

I've been a Zipp dealer for 10+ years. There was a batch issue many years ago when they changed the drilling method (around the time of the first generation 202s). This was a relatively short run and I haven't seen a failure nor have I seen anyone else make mention of a spoke hole failure on the usual forums since then. In fact, I only had one set of early release 202s come back 3 years later due to some cracking. They were both replaced full warranty. Any other rims I built up that cracked were replaced _before _they were sent out to any customer.

Cracked rims from impact? Sure I've read all about them. Again, I haven't seen any pictures or read any posts of these sort of failures relating to the most recent designs (since they started winning Paris Roubiax on them).

I'd just like to know more about your experience here.


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Mdrnizd said:


> I am looking at buying a set of the new Enve 6.7's and wondering what people think between their products and Zipp's. I have never owned either one but would like to buy a set of tubulars to race on.
> 
> I am also thinking about buying a set of carbon clinchers but don't know about the older Enve's. How are they as a wheel set. Thanks for you help!


I've heard positives and negatives about the Zipp hubs. With the Enve rims you have more hub choices. As far as the rims, there isn't much direct comparison yet. I would imagine they are pretty close competitors. I'm an Enve fan myself, but too many people are very happy with their Zipps to tell all of them they are wrong. They definitely have a long history of being some of the most aero rims on the market. Their rim quality has improved by leaps and bounds over the last few years.

-Eric


----------



## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

ergott said:


> You know, I'd really like to know in what capacity you saw all those failures. You aren't a Zipp dealer. You've only been in business for a few years.
> 
> Which rims? Did you take any pictures?
> 
> ...


Just because we've only been in business a few years doesn't mean I havent been working with Zipp for a long time. I have seen three different 202 sets with spoke hole failures. Additionally, I was just at the LBS and I saw an 808 with the exact same problem. The mechanic was replacing one of the DS rear spokes (shockingly) and the damn nip exploded through and almost took out his eye.
The reason we don't deal Zipp is because (I think) they make a garbage product. Now, I will admit I was riding a loner bike for a while that had 101s (which I was actually pretty stoked on) but as far as carbon is concerned they simply are sub par, especially when compared to Enve.


----------



## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I have yet to see one Enve rim have a spoke hole failure.


How about Edge rims? Regarding the molded spoke holes, I got many that were not well formed... rough edges, fibers sticking out, etc. These would grind away during building and in one instance pull right through the rim... and many times clog up the threads badly enough to jam and twist the spokes. Never had that happen with any other rim. Edge/Enve was very quick to replace them, and I've not had any customers with problems once they leave my hands. I now use washers at the nipple-rim interface and they build up very nice that way. 

I haven't had a Zipp with spoke pull through issues... but have experienced other structural problems... as have a lot of other people. But they change their construction every year, and so far I've not heard of any issues with the Firecrest rims. The Firecrests have excellent aerodynamic characteristics and have greatly reduced cross wind issues. This is also true of the new Heds which are similarly shaped. The new Enve Smart rims are supposed to have these characteristics as well, but I haven't seen any independent testing of them yet. 

Eric... I think the Zipp Firecrests are available for custom builds now. I haven't gotten any yet, but I see that they are advertised online. 

Zen... if you think Eric is a "Zipp pusher" you need to re-evaluate. There just isn't a chance that is true.


----------



## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

rruff said:


> How about Edge rims? Regarding the molded spoke holes, I got many that were not well formed... rough edges, fibers sticking out, etc. These would grind away during building and in one instance pull right through the rim... and many times clog up the threads badly enough to jam and twist the spokes. Never had that happen with any other rim. Edge/Enve was very quick to replace them, and I've not had any customers with problems once they leave my hands. I now use washers at the nipple-rim interface and they build up very nice that way.
> 
> I haven't had a Zipp with spoke pull through issues... but have experienced other structural problems... as have a lot of other people. But they change their construction every year, and so far I've not heard of any issues with the Firecrest rims. The Firecrests have excellent aerodynamic characteristics and have greatly reduced cross wind issues. This is also true of the new Heds which are similarly shaped. The new Enve Smart rims are supposed to have these characteristics as well, but I haven't seen any independent testing of them yet.
> 
> ...


Great point Ron. I will admit we did have issues with some of the earlier Edge rims having rough nipple beds which would cause alot of resistance. Really similar problems to what you had. Edge was always great about swapping the rims out with no questions asked though which I really think helps to distinguish them from Zipp. 
I have heard two Zipp nightmare stories (both with 202 spoke hole issues) where the wheels were sent in and sat for a few months before Zipp did anything. With Enve (or Edge back in the day) I never had this issue. They always make any sort of rim defect a huge priority and I can only think of one time where a warranty took more than a week.

Additionally, regarding Eric, you are right. I retract my statement from before. Him and I don't see eye to eye on everything and me calling him a Zipp pusher was uncalled for.


----------



## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

So how to do the much cheaper Chinese rims like Gigantex compare?
Lots of those being sold by Boyd, Williams and I don't hear of big problems.
Maybe not as aero but pretty lightweight for the price.


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

rruff said:


> Eric... I think the Zipp Firecrests are available for custom builds now. I haven't gotten any yet, but I see that they are advertised online.


I contacted them a week or so ago. I'm a current dealer and have been for about 10 years. They told me they will not sell wheel builders the Firecrest line, only the older shape. This is at least for this model year, but there was no timeline given. I do know Wheelbuilder uses them, but they are so huge I wouldn't doubt that they have some special arrangement.

I wouldn't have a problem working with their rims, but if I can't get them well, it's good to have other options.:thumbsup:

-Eric


----------



## Donzo98 (Oct 1, 2008)

Just anectdotal of course... I have been riding Zipp 808 FC as my daily wheel for 6 months or so now. I ride 6/days a week. I ride on some nasty roads too. I weigh 195 or so lbs. Zero problems. 

I had Edge 45 clinchers... with a PT SL+... and had two spoke breaks inside a 1 year period. Had to have Wheelbuilder rebuild the wheel...


----------



## rapwithtom (Oct 24, 2005)

jnbrown said:


> So how to do the much cheaper Chinese rims like Gigantex compare?
> Lots of those being sold by Boyd, Williams and I don't hear of big problems.
> Maybe not as aero but pretty lightweight for the price.


I too would love some (unbiased) experts to weigh in on this. Do the Zipp/Enve/Hed premium brands have superior aerodynamics or build quality over the Boyd/Williams/Neuvations of the world?


----------



## MTBDad (Jan 27, 2003)

So how to do the much cheaper Chinese rims like Gigantex compare?
Lots of those being sold by Boyd, Williams and I don't hear of big problems.
Maybe not as aero but pretty lightweight for the price.

This is the big question for me. I had pretty much made my decision on the ENVE vs Zipp question in favor of ENVE. Dealing with them directly for my new 1.0 road fork last week, impacted that decision in a very positive way. Now at the 11th hour, I'm wrestling with the decision between ENVE 45 / CK R45 and Boyd 38/58 / Alchemy hub upgrade. The difference in price between the two sets will be about $800, and its essentially all in the rim. I have ENVE AM29 rims on my MTB and they are crazy light and super stiff!! I think the molded spoke holes on the ENVE's are almost certainly stronger than any traditional drilled spoke hole and external nipple combo.


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

MTBDad said:


> So how to do the much cheaper Chinese rims like Gigantex compare?
> Lots of those being sold by Boyd, Williams and I don't hear of big problems.
> Maybe not as aero but pretty lightweight for the price.
> 
> This is the big question for me. I had pretty much made my decision on the ENVE vs Zipp question in favor of ENVE. Dealing with them directly for my new 1.0 road fork last week, impacted that decision in a very positive way. Now at the 11th hour, I'm wrestling with the decision between ENVE 45 / CK R45 and Boyd 38/58 / Alchemy hub upgrade. The difference in price between the two sets will be about $800, and its essentially all in the rim. I have ENVE AM29 rims on my MTB and they are crazy light and super stiff!! I think the molded spoke holes on the ENVE's are almost certainly stronger than any traditional drilled spoke hole and external nipple combo.


If you are looking at Enve, why not Mad Fiber?
At least as light, no weight limit but I dont know what the price difference is.


----------



## wetpaint (Oct 12, 2008)

MTBDad said:


> So how to do the much cheaper Chinese rims like Gigantex compare?
> Lots of those being sold by Boyd, Williams and I don't hear of big problems.
> Maybe not as aero but pretty lightweight for the price.


Those rims are not the same as these Chinese rims. They are made in Taiwan by different companies.


----------



## MTBDad (Jan 27, 2003)

Those rims are not the same as these Chinese rims. They are made in Taiwan by different companies.

i gather from the above, that the Taiwanese rims are of better quality? i ask out of genuine ignorance.


----------



## minutemaidman (Jun 14, 2010)

Mdrnizd said:


> ...wondering what people think between their products and Zipp's...Thanks for you help!


Sorry no help. I cant afford either one.


----------



## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

MTBDad said:


> So how to do the much cheaper Chinese rims like Gigantex compare?
> Lots of those being sold by Boyd, Williams and I don't hear of big problems.
> Maybe not as aero but pretty lightweight for the price.


Very tough to say. I'd definitely give the new Zipp and Enve rims the edge in aero. Some of the Chinese rims are really junk, but most likely the ones you mention are pretty decent structurally. 

I realize that not everyone is like me... but I'm still amazed at how popular carbon clincher rims are. Even the cheap ones are expensive compared to aluminum. For racing, carbon tubulars make some sense, since they are very light. But the carbon clinchers weigh as much or more than aluminum clinchers that have a pretty good aero profile... like an XR270 for instance... which is stiff enough to lace with low spoke counts. The aero difference between that and a cheap 38-50mm carbon clincher is not only imperceptible... but likely unmeasurable... maybe 1/10th of a mph at most. 

So the primary reason is probably style... which is fine... and maybe an unrealistic idea of how much faster they'd be.


----------

