# Landis may not planned his story very well



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

> Landis also claims in the e-mail that Armstrong had told him Bruyneel met with the International Cycling Union to ensure details of a positive test remained confidential due to a “financial agreement”.
> 
> Current UCI president Pat McQuaid was quick to deny that the international federation had accepted funds to conceal information about a positive test when contacted by Cyclingnews. “It’s completely false and completely untrue and we’ve made contact with a lawyer and will take appropriate action,” said McQuaid.


Not really believable. So if you get popped, you just give the UCI some money and its all better. Of course nobody knows about this but magic Landis.  

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-confesses-to-doping-implicates-armstrong-and-bruyneel


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Email text:

"LOL- I'm @ UR UCI bribing your D00Ds!!11ty!"


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

Bribing the UCI!!! This story gets stranger and stranger...

Ken


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

Let's not forget we know that Armstrong gave UCI money at one point for "testing equipment".


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

not just money, but lots of it. $500K if I recall. 

Perfectly innocent and altruistic though, right Cool?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

blackhat said:


> not just money, but lots of it. $500K if I recall.
> 
> Perfectly innocent and altruistic though, right Cool?


No clearly it was his out in the open bribe to get out of doping jail, that magically stayed completely secret (despite every other major positive being leaked).

But as part of the perfect crime, Armstrong then emails Landis and tells him "D00ds I am #1 UCI briber! Drugz R awesome LOL!11!" Really? You believe this?!?

Does this sound even plausible to you?


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

Leaks are from LNDD not UCI and have been anonymous.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Dear Floyd:

Greg Lemond wonders who you're trying to kid.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> No clearly it was his out in the open bribe to get out of doping jail, that magically stayed completely secret (despite every other major positive being leaked).
> 
> But as part of the perfect crime, Armstrong then emails Landis and tells him "D00ds I am #1 UCI briber! Drugz R awesome LOL!11!" Really? You believe this?!?
> 
> Does this sound even plausible to you?


does that email sound plausible?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> Does this sound even plausible to you?


lolwut


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> No clearly it was his out in the open bribe to get out of doping jail, that magically stayed completely secret (despite every other major positive being leaked).
> 
> But as part of the perfect crime, Armstrong then emails Landis and tells him "D00ds I am #1 UCI briber! Drugz R awesome LOL!11!" Really? You believe this?!?
> 
> Does this sound even plausible to you?


I agree, some parts of the story sound a bit, ummm, implausible. This requires a massive conspiracy, with no leaks from so many people (not just riders themselves) for so long, and a massive cover-ups, and yet at the same time implies some pretty stupid mistakes. So while I am sure many elements of the story are true, the overall narrative requires us to believe that there were dozens of conspirators, who were both brilliant and incompetent at the same time.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> Does this sound even plausible to you?


Possible, but not plausible. extremely odd. As shown in the OP, it really opens him up to attack


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

55x11 said:


> I agree, some parts of the story sound a bit, ummm, implausible. This requires a massive conspiracy, with no leaks from so many people (not just riders themselves) for so long, and a massive cover-ups, and yet at the same time implies some pretty stupid mistakes. So while I am sure many elements of the story are true, the overall narrative requires us to believe that there were dozens of conspirators, who were both brilliant and incompetent at the same time.


It only requires the person(s) at the UCI who accesses the sample codes to identify who is positive.

We know this has occurred in the U.S. in the past. Doping lab sends positives to sports body (U.S. Track and Field) and no positive is ever announced.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

there are going to be some pretty embarassed people on this forum in the next few days/weeks


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

coreyb said:


> Possible, but not plausible. extremely odd. As shown in the OP, it really opens him up to attack


On this point, not even _remotely_ for me. 

At the slightly/barely plausible level is the Hincappie/Levi accusations- I don't think one word or doubt has been raised about either rider. 

As for the other stuff- maybe its true, maybe not. But given the nature, motivation and circumstances of the accuser it would be hard to know the truth one way or another.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> But given the nature, motivation and circumstances of the accuser it would be hard to know the truth one way or another.


what precisely is the "nature, motivation and circumstances" of FL you're referring to?

You can _try_ to turn him into Lemond, as it appears you're doing, but the facts aren't on your side.


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## Rex Hunter (Apr 7, 2010)

Blood transfusions take months to prepare. The idea that he took blood out at the busiest time of the year, a few weeks before the tour, is not credible. 

And do we really believe that Armstrong would ignore Ferrari's advice on EPO?

I think even the trolls who are delighted about this would admit the guy does not have a lot of credibility. The facts are not on his side.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Rex Hunter said:


> Blood transfusions take months to prepare. The idea that he took blood out at the busiest time of the year, a few weeks before the tour, is not credible.
> 
> And do we really believe that Armstrong would ignore Ferrari's advice on EPO?
> 
> I think even the trolls who are delighted about this would admit the guy does not have a lot of credibility. The facts are not on his side.


amazing people can come to this conclusion a few hours after the admissions. This is going to take months to untangle - you can bet David Walsh and a whole pack of people are going to pursue every element of the story (along with Landis handing over detailed documentation). There will be court cases, subpoenas, and people like Armstrong's first wife are going to have to face really hard choices - perjury etc.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> There will be court cases, subpoenas, and people are going to have to face really hard choices - perjury etc.


Yea, starting with Floyd himself.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Not really believable. So if you get popped, you just give the UCI some money and its all better. Of course nobody knows about this but magic Landis.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-confesses-to-doping-implicates-armstrong-and-bruyneel


With the kind of money involved would it really surprise you if this were true?


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

Rex Hunter said:


> Blood transfusions take months to prepare. The idea that he took blood out at the busiest time of the year, a few weeks before the tour, is not credible.


I thought we've heard this before. Extract around the Dauphine and go like a donkey, put back in at the Tour and go like a racehorse.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

I don't know Landis but I find it hard to believe that this is all make-believe and a product of his supposed vast creativity.

Am I wrong for thinking that?


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## Rex Hunter (Apr 7, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> amazing people can come to this conclusion a few hours after the admissions. This is going to take months to untangle - you can bet David Walsh and a whole pack of people are going to pursue every element of the story (along with Landis handing over detailed documentation). There will be court cases, subpoenas, and people like Armstrong's first wife are going to have to face really hard choices - perjury etc.


In the US they have the 5th amendment. I doubt it will get that far though.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

MaddSkillz said:


> I don't know Landis but I find it hard to believe that this is all make-believe and a product of his supposed vast creativity.


Exactly...he may be laying it on thick, but if it was a made up story it would likely have much less detail than this. A simple account of Lance doping would have done the trick. Instead he has a fairly elaborate account of doping on a large scale and he names many names and details in the process.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

I don't think so. Armstrong gave hundreds of thousands to the UCI. And the Armstrong supporters don't claim that he is "bribing". Oh no! However, if anyone else does similar, then they are clearly in the wrong. Whereas Armstrong is never in the wrong.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

It only takes a bribe of one lab tech to stay out of trouble. They don't make much money in the first place.

If you read the UCI response today it basically says it would be better for the sport to bury everything. Hardly suggestive of outrage and since their mission is to keep the sport going their motivation is hardly on the side of revelations either.


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

terzo rene said:


> If you read the UCI response today it basically says it would be better for the sport to bury everything.


Vaughters' ringing defense of Dave Z. "he's riding clean now".


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

Dwaynebarry said:


> Vaughters' ringing defense of Dave Z. "he's riding clean now".



And the key word being "now". It has been rumored that a former US Postie, or two, have actual evidence, documents and photos, of Armstrong's drug usage. Purely rumors though based on some text messages floated around that said that one or more of those guys had documents and photos.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Wow -- the fail is strong in the true believer ranks. 

I find the procycling world as described by Manzano Kohl, Landis, Millar etc... much, much more plausible than that described by Armstrong on the 2005 podium.... give me a break!

And Hincapie... umm, helooow?! In what blood bag did he go find his 2003 Pla d'Adet climbing legs?


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

philippec said:


> Wow -- the fail is strong in the true believer ranks.
> 
> *I find the procycling world as described by Manzano Kohl, Landis, Millar etc... much, much more plausible than that described by Armstrong on the 2005 podium*.... give me a break!
> 
> And Hincapie... umm, helooow?! In what blood bag did he go find his 2003 Pla d'Adet climbing legs?



This + lots and lots


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

rook said:


> And the key word being "now". It has been rumored that a former US Postie, or two, have actual evidence, documents and photos, of Armstrong's drug usage. Purely rumors though based on some text messages floated around that said that one or more of those guys had documents and photos.


Wasn't it Landis who showed pictures of the refrigerated motorcycle panniers for transporting the blood bags to Vaughters or Andreau.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

philippec said:


> Wow -- the fail is strong in the true believer ranks.
> 
> I find the procycling world as described by Manzano Kohl, Landis, Millar etc... much, much more plausible than that described by Armstrong on the 2005 podium.... give me a break!
> 
> And Hincapie... umm, helooow?! In what blood bag did he go find his 2003 Pla d'Adet climbing legs?


Yes, this is pretty much it in a nutshell. Well put philippe.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

Dwaynebarry said:


> Wasn't it Landis who showed pictures of the refrigerated motorcycle panniers for transporting the blood bags to Vaughters or Andreau.


That I can't remember. It was all based off of texts that were sent amongst Armstrong's former teammates. It wouldn't surprise me that one or more of those guys actually do have some documentation of the stuff that went on then.


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## prs77 (Dec 13, 2004)

There are a few things I find interesting about this, but the most shocking to me is that Floyd would call out Dave Zabriskie. I thought they were pretty good friends and maybe even shared an apartment in Europe together at some point. Maybe Floyd thought he would be welcomed back into the peloton with a job waiting for him once his ban ended. He probably doesn't like competing in the domestic scene and not doing that well. Vino, Basso, Miller, Ricco, etc have all returned after their suspension, so perhaps Floyd is wondering why he's still racing in the US. This is his way of retaliating against everyone who has abandoned him, however it doesn't mean his story isn't true.


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## brurider (May 14, 2002)

*Floyd*

Any chance Floyd's been staying too close to Mr. Jack Daniels lately, got a a two day drunk and started blabbering?


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

philippec said:


> Wow -- the fail is strong in the true believer ranks.
> 
> I find the procycling world as described by Manzano Kohl, Landis, *Millar* etc... much, much more plausible than that described by Armstrong on the 2005 podium.... give me a break!
> 
> And Hincapie... umm, helooow?! In what blood bag did he go find his 2003 Pla d'Adet climbing legs?


Before Millar was caught and broke down while held by the French police, I used to think that he was a flake. Then, I just thought that he was pathetic. However, as the years go by and I see how he admitted his doping and served his time (and being stripped of prior wins), my respect for him grows. I don't doubt for a minute what Landis currently is saying. I just wish that he had not followed the Tyler Hamilton playbook before coming clean. At least Landis did not swear on Tugboat's grave.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

brurider said:


> Any chance Floyd's been staying too close to Mr. Jack Daniels lately, got a a two day drunk and started blabbering?


except that Armstrong is the heavy drinker, not Floyd.


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

Just slightly off topic, but still poinient:

The banner ad at the top of my screen for this topic reads: 

"Boost Strength and endurance! Increase EPO levels. www.EPOBOOST.com" 

Wow. Too bad more pro-cyclists don't know they could boost their endurance by taking EPO. I got an email from Armstrong saying Landis was in league with EPOBOOST.com and this is all a marketing ploy.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Coolhand and others...

So let's think this one out....

Option A: Landis was telling the truth, never doped and now is lying about everything.

Option B: Landis was doping (and so was lying) but he was the *only* one doping and all the rest of his confession/accusation is a lie.

Option C: Landis was doping, all the others were doping as well and he is now telling the truth.

Option D: Everything he is now saying except for the part about Armstrong, umm Hincapie, Leipheimer... and Zabriskie... oh, and Mattie White and Barry are lies. Just the part about the non-Americans is true... but wait... strike that -- just the part about the non Americans *except* for Bruynel and White and Barry is true......

(other options? please do tell?)

Somehow I don't think that Landis is lying about his own doping -- he has confessed to that. So either it's B or C or D -- or something I haven't thought of.

What are the odds that he was the *only* one doping?? I mean really? My own feeling is that they are not good. Especially when you look at everything that has transpired since then...

hmmm....


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

strathconaman said:


> Just slightly off topic, but still poinient:
> 
> The banner ad at the top of my screen for this topic reads:
> 
> ...


Get an adblocker.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

philippec said:


> Coolhand and others...
> 
> So let's think this one out....
> 
> ...


It might be true or it might not.

Either way it seems to me that Landis is the KING of douchebags in the peloton. He spends millions in his defense, knowing he was guilty. And then sets up a foundation to take hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations under false pretense.

The guy has all but perjured himself publically. And admitted that he wasted lots of people's money. I have seen NO reasonable explanation as to why he's coming out with this story now.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Marc said:


> It might be true or it might not.
> 
> Either way it seems to me that Landis is the KING of douchebags in the peloton. He spends millions in his defense, knowing he was guilty. And then sets up a foundation to take hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations under false pretense.
> 
> The guy has all but perjured himself publically. And admitted that he wasted lots of people's money. I have seen NO reasonable explanation as to why he's coming out with this story now.


I'm not saying I believe every word. He may have exaggerated claims in an effort to get guys back that wronged him in the past. That being said, clearing his conscience is not a reasonable explanation?


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Marc said:


> I have seen NO reasonable explanation as to why he's coming out with this story now.


Redemption vis-à-vis his family (he called his mom first, according to Landis), alleviation of his guilt/discomfort with his lies (which can increase over time and with age), a burning desire for other dopers to go through the hell that he has gone through...

many plausible reasons.....


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

+1. How many ex posties / Disco boys have been subsequently popped for doping? No systematic program at Bruyneel's camps? Right......


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## gregario (Nov 19, 2001)

MarkS said:


> Before Millar was caught and broke down while held by the French police, I used to think that he was a flake. Then, I just thought that he was pathetic. However, as the years go by and I see how he admitted his doping and served his time (and being stripped of prior wins), my respect for him grows. I don't doubt for a minute what Landis currently is saying. I just wish that he had not followed the Tyler Hamilton playbook before coming clean. At least Landis did not swear on Tugboat's grave.


^This. I have no doubt that Landis is coming clean and telling the truth.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Marc said:


> It might be true or it might not.
> 
> Either way it seems to me that Landis is the KING of douchebags in the peloton. He spends millions in his defense, knowing he was guilty. And then sets up a foundation to take hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations under false pretense.
> 
> The guy has all but perjured himself publically. And admitted that he wasted lots of people's money. I have seen NO reasonable explanation as to why he's coming out with this story now.


This.

/FWIW as long as the threads go in the right forum and the personal attacks/trolling are avoided can't say I have a huge stake in this either way.
//Except I found the UCI cover-up/bribe thing absurd.
///And would be stunned if Dave Z was doping. And the Alan Lim thing would mean all of Garmin too, which I find hard to believe as well. 
////Today is slashies day.


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## Rex Hunter (Apr 7, 2010)

Armstrong has just revealed that Landis has been trying to blackmail him for months. At least that's what they're saying in other places.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Rex Hunter said:


> Armstrong has just revealed that Landis has been trying to blackmail him for months. At least that's what they're saying in other places.


Source?


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> This.
> 
> /FWIW as long as the threads go in the right forum and the personal attacks/trolling are avoided can't say I have a huge stake in this either way.
> //Except I found the UCI cover-up/bribe thing absurd.
> ...


seriously, you'd be stunned if Zabriskie doped? 

I like Dave Z but there's nothing about his public persona that leads me to believe he's the type to go totally against the wind and ride clean when everyone around him is ET.


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

prs77 said:


> There are a few things I find interesting about this, but the most shocking to me is that Floyd would call out Dave Zabriskie. I thought they were pretty good friends and maybe even shared an apartment in Europe together at some point. Maybe Floyd thought he would be welcomed back into the peloton with a job waiting for him once his ban ended. He probably doesn't like competing in the domestic scene and not doing that well. Vino, Basso, Miller, Ricco, etc have all returned after their suspension, so perhaps Floyd is wondering why he's still racing in the US. This is his way of retaliating against everyone who has abandoned him, however it doesn't mean his story isn't true.


Dave Z. may have given him the go ahead to out him or they had a falling out. Rumors are they stayed together at a recent race.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

blackhat said:


> seriously, you'd be stunned if Zabriskie doped?
> 
> I like Dave Z but there's nothing about his public persona that leads me to believe he's the type to go totally against the wind and ride clean when everyone around him is ET.


Personally, I would be and we must view his persona differently. I understand if you feel differently of course.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> This.
> 
> /FWIW as long as the threads go in the right forum and the personal attacks/trolling are avoided can't say I have a huge stake in this either way.
> //Except I found the UCI cover-up/bribe thing absurd.
> ...


We know the world has tilted off its axis today, as Coolhand is defending Garmin


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

BTW- 288 users/guests on right now. 

:thumbsup:


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

SilasCL said:


> We know the world has tilted off its axis today, as Coolhand is defending Garmin


I feel dirty. . . .


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## 3rensho (Aug 26, 2003)

I'd have to side with the logic of Phillipec on this. I love Levi and have always thought of him as clean.................but I also signed my kid up for Tyler's Tough Tykes when I thought he was the best 'clean' American rider so I guess my "he's no doper" radar is a bit off. 

If Lance claims Floyd's been trying to blackmail him, he's better have some credible proof. Now, I need a refill for this popcorn...................


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> //Except I found the UCI cover-up/bribe thing absurd.
> ///And would be stunned if Dave Z was doping. And the Alan Lim thing would mean all of Garmin too, which I find hard to believe as well.
> ////Today is slashies day.


Unfortunately, I find *nothing* hard to believe anymore in Pro cycling ... 

One thing I would like to hear is a plausible explanation for why an active rider/millionaire would *gift* $500,000 to the Sport's oversight federation....

like I said.... I find *nothing* hard to believe in this sport anymore...


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

Rex Hunter said:


> Armstrong has just revealed that Landis has been trying to blackmail him for months. At least that's what they're saying in other places.


Well played.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> BTW- 288 users/guests on right now.
> 
> :thumbsup:



I see...

so perhaps it was Francois' doing to get increased hits to his site.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Marc said:


> Source?


nmnmnm...wrong link...


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

philippec said:


> like I said.... I find *nothing* hard to believe in this sport anymore...


I guess I still have some left. "Nothing" means you *could* believe that the French are doping again, which is while they are winning again finally. Or that Lim was doping up the whole Garmin squad with Vaughters, hence Wiggins/CVV surprise performances. Or that UCI would happy take a bribe to hide a doping positive. 

I don't believe anything like that, so yes there are dopers in the peleton. But not all of them. Heck, at this point I would venture not most of them. But I could be wrong. 

/ever notice that the "they all doped" crowd ALWAYS excludes their favorite rider as the one exception to the rule. 
//please don't make me say more nice things about Garmin. . .


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Coolhand said:


> /ever notice that the "they all doped" crowd ALWAYS excludes their favorite rider as the one exception to the rule.


You know that isn't true, so please stop. Really, do you think I, or Dwaynebarry or Blackhat would exclude our 'favorite' riders (several of my favorites are on Floyd's list, or have already been busted). I may have been unsure in the past, but no so over the past couple of years.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

blackhat said:


> I see...
> 
> so perhaps it was Francois' doing to get increased hits to his site.


LOL :thumbsup:


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## High Rouleur (Jul 1, 2003)

Marc said:


> Source?


Interview on ESPN radio. Maybe on TV, too, but I heard it on the radio. Armstrong accused Landis of trying to blackmail the ATOC people to let his team in the race, among many other things.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Dwaynebarry said:


> Well played.


agreed. the man's a doped-to-the-gills drama queen with oedipal issues but he's a sound strategist.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

blackhat said:


> agreed. the man's a doped-to-the-gills drama queen with oedipal issues but he's a sound strategist.


Best backwards complement of the day! :thumbsup:


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> ...
> /ever notice that the "they all doped" crowd ALWAYS excludes their favorite rider as the one exception to the rule.
> //please don't make me say more nice things about Garmin. . .


Though I've been largely silent for the last year, I've traditionally been in the "they all doped" crowd, and I include my favorite rider, Valverde. 

<----- See, I even have an avatar of him,and it's a couple years old.

Landis' coming out makes sense to me. For the last year or two he probably thought he'd be able to get back in the game like Basso, however his old "pals" have snubbed him, and he realizes his cycling career is done, so he's going to throw everyone under the bus. Might be a dirt bag move, but he was doping in the first place, so that says a lot right there ...

Sad thing is that people still want to put their heads into the sand even though more and more people get busted, people like Jorg Jaske and Bernard Kohl give a ton of detail, and yet heads are still in the sand.

Hasn't something like 70% of the top 10 from the 2005 TdF subsequently busted? Are we still be believe the winner was clean and dominated the the rest of the dirty peloton because cancer made him resist pain better?


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## akrafty1 (Apr 10, 2006)

The hardest part for me to believe is that Bruyneel would tell Floyd... 

"Hey need some EPO? well just pop on over to Lance's HOUSE and he will just hand you a bunch in front of other people that could testify against him at a later date... Oh and tell him I said hi!"

That to me just does not sound right for someone who keeps suck a tight grip on things around them. I am not defending anyone. I just dont think Armstrong is that stupid.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Einstruzende said:


> Though I've been largely silent for the last year, I've traditionally been in the "they all doped" crowd, and I include my favorite rider, Valverde.
> 
> <----- See, I even have an avatar of him,and it's a couple years old.
> 
> ...



They're all dirty. Except for Armstrong. And if you think otherwise then you love Cancer and hate America. Remember guys. Hope rides again.


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## Zipp0 (Aug 19, 2008)

brurider said:


> Any chance Floyd's been staying too close to Mr. Jack Daniels lately, got a a two day drunk and started blabbering?


Why not?

In vino veritas.


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

akrafty1 said:


> The hardest part for me to believe is that Bruyneel would tell Floyd...
> 
> "Hey need some EPO? well just pop on over to Lance's HOUSE and he will just hand you a bunch in front of other people that could testify against him at a later date... Oh and tell him I said hi!"
> 
> That to me just does not sound right for someone who keeps suck a tight grip on things around them. I am not defending anyone. I just dont think Armstrong is that stupid.


Different times. You can't project the modern testing environment back to those years, it was completely different.


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## Zipp0 (Aug 19, 2008)

High Rouleur said:


> Interview on ESPN radio. Maybe on TV, too, but I heard it on the radio. Armstrong accused Landis of trying to blackmail the ATOC people to let his team in the race, among many other things.


What I read was that Floyd threatened to release the emails for months (per Lance) -Which seems odd considering he apparently just wrote them a couple weeks ago.

It seems that Lancey Boy and the ATOC folks didn't want to play hardball, and Floyd did. Now we have this. Well, from Floyd's perspective - when you've got nothin', you've got nothing to lose.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> ///And would be stunned if <strike>Tyler (c'mon he swore on Tugboat's grave!!), Floyd (c'mon... Mennonite upbringing!)</strike> Dave Z (c'mon, it's DZ we're talking about... he makes great chammie cream!) was doping.


just waiting here..... :wink:


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## BikeGeek (Mar 19, 2005)

No doubt Bruyneel has a system in place wether it is cash and a network of connections, the best doctors or more likely a combination. Too many riders that used to be in his camp get busted after leaving to be just chance.

Landis is probably telling a mix of fact and embellishment driven by being left to swing in the breeze after botching his doping program. 

It will be interesting to see what happens, probably relatively little..Operaton Puerto round two sort of deal to last quite a while.


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## txzen (Apr 6, 2005)

Rex Hunter said:


> Blood transfusions take months to prepare. The idea that he took blood out at the busiest time of the year, a few weeks before the tour, is not credible.
> 
> .


You need to re-examine the Tyler blood doping schedule. You microdose prior to the race to both boost hemoglobin for your blood donation as well as to replenish afterward. The blood has a limited shelf life, and has to be taken soon before the competition. 

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1420596&page=


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## bnoojin (Mar 24, 2002)

philippec said:


> Unfortunately, I find *nothing* hard to believe anymore in Pro cycling ...
> 
> One thing I would like to hear is a plausible explanation for why an active rider/millionaire would *gift* $500,000 to the Sport's oversight federation....
> 
> like I said.... I find *nothing* hard to believe in this sport anymore...



I believe it was for massive pr points for the Livestrong fanbase to believe in him. a highly visible bribe wouldn't be a very good idea.


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## aliensporebomb (Jul 2, 2002)

I don't think it's doping. I think Ferrari was putting HELIUM in the bike tires. I'm sure of it.

Gack.

Where's the facepalm icon when we need it?


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

New York Times says the Feds are involved. We have not heard anything from any of the agencies that would issue charges. I say we wait to see what the evidence is. I know this is America and we love to see the great ones fall but I am willing to wait for the evidence. As much I would liked to say innocent until proven guilty that is not the case and we all know it.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

rward325 said:


> New York Times says the Feds are involved. We have not heard anything from any of the agencies that would issue charges. I say we wait to see what the evidence is. I know this is America and we love to see the great ones fall but I am willing to wait for the evidence. As much I would liked to say innocent until proven guilty that is not the case and we all know it.


What jurisdiction do the feds have over international cycling I wonder? Baseball I know. But cycling?


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

Marc said:


> What jurisdiction do the feds have over international cycling I wonder? Baseball I know. But cycling?


I can answer that in one word....Lance


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## TWD (Feb 9, 2004)

BikeGeek said:


> Landis is probably telling a mix of fact and embellishment driven by being left to swing in the breeze after botching his doping program.


You know....this whole deal reminds me of the movie Stand By Me. I can just picture Floyd sitting back with a smile on his face, while everybody pukes all over each other. 

Floyd, no doubt, has been pretty successful in creating one helluva sh!tshorm, and there seems to be plenty of stink to go around. 

I don't believe 100% of what ANYBODY is saying in this whole mess. Not Floyd, not LA, not the UCI. So far about half of what each party involved has said sounded plausible to me, and the other half like total BS and the and CYA.

After the initial shock value wear off, none of this really suprises me.


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

TWD said:


> I don't believe 100% of what ANYBODY is saying in this whole mess. Not Floyd, not LA, not the UCI. So far about half of what each party involved has said sounded plausible to me, and the other half like total BS and the and CYA.


Well that is the sensible view


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

BikeGeek said:


> Landis is probably telling a mix of fact and embellishment driven by being left to swing in the breeze after botching his doping program.


He's also recounting events from several years ago, which means there will be mistakes. Memory is not like replaying a DVD or something.


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## tricycletalent (Apr 2, 2005)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Exactly...he may be laying it on thick, but if it was a made up story it would likely have much less detail than this. A simple account of Lance doping would have done the trick. Instead he has a fairly elaborate account of doping on a large scale and he names many names and details in the process.


Nah. That is what intelligent ppl do to fake it. That is what not so intelligent people do unknowingly when confronted by coppers. Spill all beans, even those possibly incriminating themselves, to seem more credible as they are afraid to come under suspicion, even though they are innocent. Normal move.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

My question is how trustworthy is someone who took hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend himself from "being wrongly accused" and now comes out and says "whoops, I really did do it, but so did these people so ignore my wrongdoing and go get them."

For some reason, I don't believe much of what he says.


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## slegros (Sep 22, 2009)

Rex Hunter said:


> Armstrong has just revealed that Landis has been trying to blackmail him for months. At least that's what they're saying in other places.


Might be plausible... Look at what Landis and crew tried to pull with LeMond....


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

Would really like to hear what Emma O'Reilly, former US Postal masseuse has to say about this. Her version of events has already been published. Eight years ago...


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

rook said:


> I don't think so. Armstrong gave hundreds of thousands to the UCI. And the Armstrong supporters don't claim that he is "bribing". Oh no! However, if anyone else does similar, then they are clearly in the wrong. Whereas Armstrong is never in the wrong.


If hundreds of thousands could buy off a positive test, then wouldn't Floyd have done that instead of spending a million or more trying to fight it in arbitration?


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## ChuckUni (Jan 2, 2003)

robdamanii said:


> My question is how trustworthy is someone who took hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend himself from "being wrongly accused" and now comes out and says "whoops, I really did do it, but so did these people so ignore my wrongdoing and go get them."
> 
> For some reason, I don't believe much of what he says.


Makes perfect sense to me. Think of pro cycling like a drug. At the top level there is the money and attention...etc. Probably addictive. So at first he wanted to save that and try to get back into the game. But when it became clear that's not gonna be a choice, why not let your conscience get the best of you and spill the beans. Nothing to loose, nothing to win by lying anymore...


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Fredke said:


> If hundreds of thousands could buy off a positive test, then wouldn't Floyd have done that instead of spending a million or more trying to fight it in arbitration?


It was too late.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

philippec said:


> So let's think this one out....
> 
> Somehow I don't think that Landis is lying about his own doping -- he has confessed to that. So either it's B or C or D -- or something I haven't thought of.


My best guess at this point in the story:

I think Landis doped (duh!), lots of other people doped (duh! squared), but they may not all have been stupid enough to give him all the details about their doping. 

Lance, in particular, I can believe might have been pretty private about his own regimen, being the kind of control freak he is.

So Landis knows these guys are doping, figures that if he outs them, then he doesn't look so bad by comparison, plus he stands to make a bunch of money when he writes his next book, "_Fool You Twice; Shame on You_." 

But his problem is that although he knows they doped, he doesn't have all the details on everyone, especially not on Lance; so he makes a bunch of stuff up, adding what W.S. Gilbert described as "_corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative_."

I still share Coolhand's sense that there's something wrong with the bribing UCI story. For me it's that if all it takes to pull that off is $500K or so, then how come Floyd didn't do that when he got popped? Trying to defend himself in arbitration was a lot more expensive than that.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

AJL said:


> It was too late.


How so? Get them to mess up the B sample like Tyler did.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ChuckUni said:


> Makes perfect sense to me. Think of pro cycling like a drug. At the top level there is the money and attention...etc. Probably addictive. So at first he wanted to save that and try to get back into the game. But when it became clear that's not gonna be a choice, why not let your conscience get the best of you and spill the beans. Nothing to loose, nothing to win by lying anymore...


After all the lies up to now, why should anyone believe him?

Remember the boy who cried wolf?


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## ChuckUni (Jan 2, 2003)

robdamanii said:


> After all the lies up to now, why should anyone believe him?
> 
> Remember the boy who cried wolf?


Remember how absolutely LAME his lies were? Obvious BS. Now??


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## Corsaire (Jun 2, 2006)

My friend is from Colombia, owns a bike shop and he used to be a racer in the Tour of Colombia some years ago, he still races here in the US for fun in the masters. He's good friend with Santiago Botero, has pics of them together riding, and trains sometimes with him when in Colombia. Botero confided to him once that ALL racers at the pro level get doped, it's just the luck of the draw when they get caught. He knows Lance has done it too, no doubt about it, the only difference has been that Lance has been in a position of power and had access to all the "good stuff" money can buy, even the cover ups.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

philippec said:


> Redemption vis-à-vis his family (he called his mom first, according to Landis), alleviation of his guilt/discomfort with his lies (which can increase over time and with age), a burning desire for other dopers to go through the hell that he has gone through...
> 
> many plausible reasons.....


Reading all the news I have the distinct feeling as if I were reading about a bunch of fratboys who just got outed for having the same strain of chlamidia because they had all used the same prostitute. And Bruyneel was maybe the pimp. 

Back in 2006 it was the Euro techno boys who got outed, and Manolo Saiz was the pimp.


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## kbg (Jun 23, 2009)

The sad part about all of this is the following: even if Landis is telling the truth, it will probably not do any good. Lance & co have a pretty much iron-clad alibi - dozens of negative test results in and out of competition. The guy is just too smart to get caught. Unless there is some positive proof somewhere, like a dated & signed picture of Lance with an IV in his arm, this will all blow over in a few weeks.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

Ok I've read everyone's responses & its a lot. I've always been a staunch defender of floyd but I have to say that this is the final staw. The man has lost all credibility. The blackmailing of lemond, the hacking into the computers of the french lab which he still has to answer the charges for & now this. 

This is beyond twilight zone!! Everyone is in on it according to floyd. The UCI, the labs, the teams, the team directors, all the riders, everyone!! Who hasn't he named??


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Corsaire said:


> My friend is from Colombia, owns a bike shop and he used to be a racer in the Tour of Colombia some years ago, he still races here in the US for fun in the masters. He's good friend with Santiago Botero, has pics of them together riding, and trains sometimes with him when in Colombia. Botero confided to him once that ALL racers at the pro level get doped, it's just the luck of the draw when they get caught. He knows Lance has done it too, no doubt about it, the only difference has been that Lance has been in a position of power and had access to all the "good stuff" money can buy, even the cover ups.


Personally I have no idea if LA doped because I have never seen any definitive proof. I also know many people he beat have been busted, so either he doped as well and beat them r he was clean and beat them, either way he beat them.

I mentioned that before I posted this to give some perspective of where I am coming from.

1) It's funny how Botero "knows" LA did it, but I am willing to bet all of my bikes if your buddy asked him he would say he heard it from someone (i.e. he doesn't really "know" he simply suspects)

2) I always laugh at the idea that LA came back to cycling in 1998 and instantly had access to doping and cover ups better then anyone else in the sport. Better then established classics winners, grand tour winners, short stage race winners, etc.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Einstruzende said:


> Though I've been largely silent for the last year, I've traditionally been in the "they all doped" crowd, and I include my favorite rider, Valverde.
> 
> <----- See, I even have an avatar of him,and it's a couple years old.
> 
> ...


+1, lots of posts commenting on the character or lack thereof of Floyd, and bristling at the whistleblower / snitch aspect of it, yet continue to be in denial of the corrobrating stories from other riders, and former employees of the postal / disco programs. The whole bury my head deep into the sand (dung?) psychology of these posters is hilarious.


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## aliensporebomb (Jul 2, 2002)

*Yeah....*



gamara said:


> Ok I've read everyone's responses & its a lot. I've always been a staunch defender of floyd but I have to say that this is the final staw. The man has lost all credibility. The blackmailing of lemond, the hacking into the computers of the french lab which he still has to answer the charges for & now this.
> 
> This is beyond twilight zone!! Everyone is in on it according to floyd. The UCI, the labs, the teams, the team directors, all the riders, everyone!! Who hasn't he named??


Next we'll hear that George Bush was responsible for his downfall because he didn't 
return his call on the day they were supposed to do lunch so he had the evidence found.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

DZfan14 said:


> They're all dirty. Except for Armstrong. And if you think otherwise then you love Cancer and hate America. Remember guys. Hope rides again.



+1. No question that the Livestrong foundation does tremendous work for cancer patients / survivors, however it is also a brilliant strategy to deflect emotional conviction away from doping allegations to the unquestionably positive work in the cancer realm. A facinating dichotomy.
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS


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## spyderman (Apr 29, 2002)

So Floyd wants to be the Jose Canseco of cycling? :nonod:

The fact that Floyd defrauded his fans by taking money from them to defend his lies?? Nah, I can't believe what he says at this point. Perhaps if he said it when they pulled his TDF title then it woulda been more credible?


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## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

SilasCL said:


> I'm not saying I believe every word. He may have exaggerated claims in an effort to get guys back that wronged him in the past. That being said, clearing his conscience is not a reasonable explanation?



- How about: He's a bitter little man (term used loosely) that is pissed that he and his team were not invited to the ToC and he want's to make many people's lives as un-comfortable as possible at the perfect time. ???

I can't wait either to see things unravel/evolve...


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

gamara said:


> Who hasn't he named??


<font size=1>the French</font size>.... for once...









Just sayin'...........................







...........and yes, I know, the French dope as well, just not as spectacularly as Floyd and his ex-buddies


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

kbg said:


> The sad part about all of this is the following: even if Landis is telling the truth, it will probably not do any good. Lance & co have a pretty much iron-clad alibi - dozens of negative test results in and out of competition. The guy is just too smart to get caught. Unless there is some positive proof somewhere, like a dated & signed picture of Lance with an IV in his arm, this will all blow over in a few weeks.



Armstrong has already tested positive. More than once. He got off on a technicality.


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

Fredke said:


> How so? Get them to mess up the B sample like Tyler did.


Because then you need the lab involved. If the cover-up story is true, all you need is the UCI to never report the A positive.

Pretty sure we know this was going on in the U.S. back in the day. Doping lab would find a positive, send it to U.S. Track and Field, and no one would ever hear about it.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

philippec said:


> <font size=1>the French</font size>.... for once...
> 
> 
> Just sayin'...........................
> ...


The most astonishing part of the Andreu - Vaughters IM chat log was their belief that Moreau was clean when he rode for CA to several top ten GC finishes in the Tour. I feel bad that I used to think he was lame for making a huge deal out of being the highest-placed french guy.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Man... reading the details I had no idea the Priory of Sion and the Knights Templar were so into professional cycling.

What an... extravagant story. 

I think a familiar pattern appears even in his admission... Landis' downfall was somone else's fault and he is but another victim. He is always the victim.


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

Let's just say yesterday was the initial blood letting. I don't think the true wound is yet to be opened in this case. We know the U.S. Attorney is involved and that they are studying this carefully before they speak. Let's just watch the cockroaches run as the lights are turned on. I really hope it doesn't go as deep as I think it will go because cycling won't rebound for years if it does. Personally I think they all dope to one extent of a another. The ones that are caught are thrown to the wolves if they try and fight to much(Floyd). Looks to me if you are a good boy and take your suspension and do what your told then things go ok for you. I think we will see a lot of things happen in the coming weeks that may even shock me.


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

gamara said:


> Ok I've read everyone's responses & its a lot. I've always been a staunch defender of floyd but I have to say that this is the final staw. The man has lost all credibility. The blackmailing of lemond, the hacking into the computers of the french lab which he still has to answer the charges for & now this.
> 
> This is beyond twilight zone!! Everyone is in on it according to floyd. The UCI, the labs, the teams, the team directors, all the riders, everyone!! Who hasn't he named??


pro peloton is alot like the mafia. 
Floyd got busted. He fought the charges and lost. Served 2 years, kept his mouth shut. Didn't rat. Once free wanted back in. Was probably advised to keep clean for a little while. Spent his first year out squeeky clean. Then he quits his job, thinking his boys will welcome him back. They all turn their back on him. Sees 2 other guys Basso and Ricco serve time, and be welcomed back into the family. Ricco even ratted. Once he realized he was never going to be welcomed back, he the started talking to the authorities.


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## Corsaire (Jun 2, 2006)

Bry03cobra said:


> pro peloton is alot like the mafia.
> Floyd got busted. He fought the charges and lost. Served 2 years, kept his mouth shut. Didn't rat. Once free wanted back in. Was probably advised to keep clean for a little while. Spent his first year out squeeky clean. Then he quits his job, thinking his boys will welcome him back. They all turn their back on him. Sees 2 other guys Basso and Ricco serve time, and be welcomed back into the family. Ricco even ratted. Once he realized he was never going to be welcomed back, he the started talking to the authorities.


Exactly. He must've said to himself: WTF?!

The next question would be: why wouldn't they let him back in? He was, after all, part of the whole "doped family" anyway.


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## StillRiding (Sep 16, 2006)

The Landis story is almost enough to make an atheist believe in God...a very pissed off God who has a hard-on for Floyd.

He's lost his faith, his health, the glory of a tour win, his best friend, his fortune, his wife, the sport he loved, his credibility and apparently most of his sanity. He's a train wreck of Biblical proportions. Maybe he and Lindsey Lohan should get together.

Funny thing....lots of people who know him personally say he's a really nice guy.


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## Rex Hunter (Apr 7, 2010)

Bry03cobra said:


> pro peloton is alot like the mafia.
> Floyd got busted. He fought the charges and lost. Served 2 years, kept his mouth shut. Didn't rat. Once free wanted back in. Was probably advised to keep clean for a little while. Spent his first year out squeeky clean. Then he quits his job, thinking his boys will welcome him back. They all turn their back on him. Sees 2 other guys Basso and Ricco serve time, and be welcomed back into the family. Ricco even ratted. Once he realized he was never going to be welcomed back, he the started talking to the authorities.


It's one thing to admit to your own doping, but to go after Armstrong, who wasn't even on his team when he got caught, just comes off as really spiteful to me. He's obviously not doing it to clean up the sport because he says he's not ashamed of doping. And talkiing about things from almost ten years ago has nothing to do with the present day. The blood passport system is already cleaning up the sport in this era - nothing Landis has said will help that. 

I just think it's terrible what Floyd has done here.


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

orange_julius said:


> The most astonishing part of the Andreu - Vaughters IM chat log was their belief that Moreau was clean when he rode for CA to several top ten GC finishes in the Tour. I feel bad that I used to think he was lame for making a huge deal out of being the highest-placed french guy.


I totally agree. If it is true that Moreau was racing at 39% (IIRC what Vaughters said), then it's possible he was the best rider of the last generation. Very weird to think about that.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

All we know for sure based on his "history" is that Floyd has made up his own reality as he goes along. Now, I highly doubt he didn't have "help" in altering/covering up the truth of his doping days, but he _obviously_ has issues... to put it kindly. 

Now that he has nothing left to lose, is he simply a nutcase that's going to take as many down with him as possible? How much of his current "reality" and recollection of events is manufactured, and how much is fact?

Who the eff knows.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Three more comments:

1) Mentioning Ricco seems to work against all the conspiracy theories against Floyd. Why would they let Ricco back in after all he did and aid, but not Floyd.

2) *If* LA did bribe the UCI into not busting him, then why would anyone think he would get busted by the US government? He is buddies with many people in high places.

3) So some consider Moreau riding clean to top ten tour positions after he admitted doping at Festina? So he was beating doped riders while clean, but it is impossible for LA to have done the same?


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## easyridernyc (Jan 10, 2008)

yeah that's the thing, liar liar pants on fire

i mean you lie and cheat to win, get busted i f*ckin mediately.then you lie again and for years saying the test was wrong the test was wrong the test was wrong. then you admit, oh sorry, i was lying the whole time. but now i'm not. and you expect to be believed, because why, exactly? 

problem is when it comes down to what LANDIS says, and what LANDIS did, its pretty much impossible to differentiate between when he's telling the lie and when the truth. and that's really the problem, isnt it? landis has zero credibility. none. who should really care about anything the guy has to say?

i dont doubt for a moment that in his mind lthe guy feels as if someone else is responsible for what happened to him. and unless the guy is acutely psychotic (possible), there may be some truth somewhere out there in the accusations. maybe. somewhere. but to try to lay it all out on lance, presumably because of the tour/we are all cyclists/racers/cheating international professionals affinity scenario?

i dont see it. not nearly enough meat on the bone.


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

It's more terrible that he was blackballed and homeless forced to race on a 3rd rate crit team making 25k. I'm a LA and FL fan. I always felt to be a top level pro, doping is what was done. I won't feel any different about LA if he were to get sanctioned. It bothers me more that while he was jet setting around the world one of his former teamates, who worked his ass off for him in the TDF was at bottom. FL needed a decent job, LA should have helped hm out. Floyd said in 06 he was offered NO suspension if he were to dime out Lance. Floyd kept his mouth shut. Dave Z and Floyd were best friends. For Floyd to dime him out, Dave must have also turned his back on Floyd. Floyds "friends" turned their back on him when he needed them, he is pissed. I don't blame him....


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## easyridernyc (Jan 10, 2008)

yeah that's the thing, liar liar pants on fire

i mean you lie and cheat to win, get busted i f*ckin mediately.then you lie again and for years saying the test was wrong the test was wrong the test was wrong. then you admit, oh sorry, i was lying the whole time. but now i'm not. and you expect to be believed, because why, exactly? 

problem is when it comes down to what LANDIS says, and what LANDIS did, its pretty much impossible to differentiate between when he's telling the lie and when the truth. and that's really the problem, isnt it? landis has zero credibility. none. who should really care about anything the guy has to say?

i dont doubt for a moment that in his mind lthe guy feels as if someone else is responsible for what happened to him. and unless the guy is acutely psychotic (possible), there may be some truth somewhere out there in the accusations. maybe. somewhere. but to try to lay it all out on lance, presumably because of the tour/we are all cyclists/racers/cheating international professionals affinity scenario?

i dont see it. not nearly enough meat on the bone.


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## spyderman (Apr 29, 2002)

Bry03cobra said:


> It's more terrible that he was blackballed and homeless forced to race on a 3rd rate crit team making 25k. I'm a LA and FL fan. I always felt to be a top level pro, doping is what was done. I won't feel any different about LA if he were to get sanctioned. It bothers me more that while he was jet setting around the world one of his former teamates, who worked his ass off for him in the TDF was at bottom. FL needed a decent job, LA should have helped hm out. Floyd said in 06 he was offered NO suspension if he were to dime out Lance. Floyd kept his mouth shut. Dave Z and Floyd were best friends. For Floyd to dime him out, Dave must have also turned his back on Floyd. Floyds "friends" turned their back on him when he needed them, he is pissed. I don't blame him....


Yeah, because Floyd has soooo much credibility *now*?? ut: 

Lets say others are guilty... This is exactly why everyone would want to stay away from him. Landis has become the "Fredo" of cycling...


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

spyderman said:


> Yeah, because Floyd has soooo much credibility *now*?? ut:
> 
> Lets say others are guilty... This is exactly why everyone would want to stay away from him. Landis has become the "Fredo" of cycling...


really, what did Floyd say that anyone on these forums didn't already know? 

Most of the caught dopers lie once they fail a test. Only when caught red handed do they admit it. Look at Millar and Basso. Floyds credibility as a doper shouldn't be any different that any other doper. Lance failed tests before, why is his credibility just fine? 

Read the emails on cyclingnews. Floyd would have Kept his mouth shut if he could have been given a spot on RS's roster. As I stated above, Floyd kept his mouth shut hoping to return to "real" racing. But those like Riis, Vaughters, Lance and Johan who knew the truth, wouldn't give floyd a spot on a their teams. 

I'm a Lance fan. I have a 2010 P1 madone in Livestrong colors. I wear a yellow bracelet. And I know Lance doped. 

This reminds me of pro wrestling. The same crowd that hates LA hated FL. Not that FL took the Face turn, the Lance haters love Floyd now.


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## mav6162005 (Mar 17, 2009)

Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

Bry03cobra said:


> really, what did Floyd say that anyone on these forums didn't already know?


I wonder about that sometime. O.K. I can accept the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd but are there really people that still believe Armstrong and his team did what they did on "bread and water alone" at essentially the height of the effective doping era?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Dwaynebarry said:


> I wonder about that sometime. O.K. I can accept the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd but are there really people that still believe Armstrong and his team did what they did on "bread and water alone" at essentially the height of the effective doping era?


According to my poll in another thread there may be a few but they are a big minority.


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## zion rasta (Aug 15, 2004)

*ok hang on a sec....*



Einstruzende said:


> Though I've been largely silent for the last year, I've traditionally been in the "they all doped" crowd, and I include my favorite rider, Valverde.
> 
> <----- See, I even have an avatar of him,and it's a couple years old.
> 
> ...


Ok, so lets say they are all dopers. The playing field is leveled, and Lance still kick their respective asses. 

So if you are doping and still get dropped at Alpe dhuez, oh freaking well....

I feel bad for Vino and the Chicken and all those who got caught.

BTW, BAseball sucks with out steroids. I liked it better with 65 hr seasons players.

Landis cant compete at the pro level anymore. Not with out juice. He got caught and now he is making a bigger ass of himself. 

During this tour, I am rooting for El pistolero and Vino. I will be happy if ol'lance makes the podium, but I doubt it......

Contrador is better to hang out with than Lance.... So is Ulrich, and Cancelara.... Just saying..


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