# Anyone here show up to a group ride with your Fixed?



## theone29 (Aug 13, 2007)

just curious. if you do, what is your gearing? and are you able to keep up? i am thinking about it. thanks.


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## messyparrot (Sep 17, 2007)

I would love to but I get buried the way it is with my regular bike.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Sure.*

When I rode fixed a whole lot, I did.

42 x 18 or 42 x 16, and I could keep up fine on the uphills, but steep downhills were not possible.

On the flats, on an easier day, it was okay, but 42 x 18 spins out at 26-27, so that didn't work well on hammer fests.

42 x 16 on a flat hammer ride is HARD, but it's doable.


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

I used to. I needed about 80 GI to hang on those long hammerfests but always got dropped on the hills. 
On non-hammer rides I can hang running about 70 GI, but usually get dropped on the descents. A single speed would be better so I can coast on the descents and keep up for the most part.

I can usually hang from start to finish if the ride is relatively flat. I usually sit in the middle of the pack and draft the entire ride....


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

I know that if you aren't skilled, the other riders will want to shake you loose. When everyone's riding nose-to-tail, you best be on pace with a smooth cadence. Trouble comes when you hit a descent and a gap opens up between you and the guy ahead. Those behind you will drop you to close it. (Ask me how I know this).


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

you might get weird looks, or even discouragement from the group... not only do you need to be fairly fast to keep up (climbing and downhill), but you better be able to regulate your speed within the group (slowing when they coast), be able to accelerate when needed (surges out of corners and closing other gaps), be confident in panic stops (hopefully you won't need to show it). gotta pay attention when riding w/ gearies, I wouldn't recommend it unless you are a baller


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

I took mine on a non-hammer (though not totally slow) group ride a few times. I had a 42x14, and could keep up no problem except at the spot where everyone would sprint.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

As long as it's my Sunday ride group (eg: non-racers) I'm alright. 

Oddly enough I use the same gearing Andrea uses on these rollin' hills in madtown. I'm usually able to keep a good pace. I also have a fixie only ride group. I love having multiple bike group, definitely gives me different paces when I feel like it.


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

We've also got the fixed gear rides here too but they're the non-spandex type rides. I don't quite fit in with the crowd and their riding style.


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## seeborough (Feb 3, 2004)

theone29 said:


> just curious. if you do, what is your gearing? and are you able to keep up? i am thinking about it. thanks.


Tuesday night beginner's ride. Anything over 20mph average is a lie.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

I showed up at a not particularly fast ride with mine. Rollers mostly (the ride leader was kind to me), but I kept up just fine. Was probably running a 42x17 at the time. Also did a flat century on mine; 42x16, I think. Avged about 20mph...


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## ukiahb (Jan 26, 2003)

theone29 said:


> just curious. if you do, what is your gearing? and are you able to keep up? i am thinking about it. thanks.


Many times with the local (non-racing) club, nearly every weekend, and am nearly always the only fixed rider....enjoy the challenge of trying to hang w/ geared riders and usually do OK, but generally get dropped on descents. Sometimes a bicycle babe in the club will be unduly impressed and think I'm an extremely strong rider (NOT the case) but I can live with that ;-) Gearing in 49x18, about 73 inches....


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

I can also use the fixed gear as a good excuse for getting dropped on rides that I know I can't handle even on a geared bike.


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## cpcritter (Sep 24, 2008)

This thread prompted me to ride my SS Saturday morning. It was not as bad as I had originally suspected it would be. I ran 46x17 and spun out on the hammer section of the ride. I ended up in the back group of the split instead of the vying for the county line win. The place I would excel is on the rolling climbs because of having to keep my cadence up I would stand and maintain my speed rather than down shifting.

All and all a lot of fun and it really makes for some comments, just bring strong legs and a competative spirit.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

cpcritter said:


> This thread prompted me to ride my SS Saturday morning.




how is this possible? when the thread began on Mon pm?


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

FatTireFred said:


> how is this possible? when the thread began on Mon pm?


Time travel?


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Yes, with the SS it lets you spin like a madman, coast, draft, recover, spin like a madman, and repeat....


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

I'll take my singlespeed on casual group rides, I've take the fixie but it's harder to regulate speed so it can get dangerous in a paceline. So I usually take the singlespeed. I can't quite keep up on the hammer fests. It's not the climbs but the flats where I drop off. I'm in hilly country and gear 44/17 or 18 for the climbs.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*sure*



theone29 said:


> just curious. if you do, what is your gearing? and are you able to keep up? i am thinking about it. thanks.


Heck, I've done double centuries and many other events on them. On a hilly double, I run about 2 hours slower on the fixed gear. It's slower climbing and slower descending, and forget 25 mph pacelines (with roughly a 70 inch gear). In events of 200 to 300 riders, I typically end up around the 50th percentile on the fixed, where I'd have been 10th to 20th percentile on a multispeed bike. 

I just can't climb as efficiently once the grade goes over about 3%. Then, the steeper it gets, the more I'll vary from my multispeed efficiency, where I can shift to any gear to stay around 80 to 100 rpms. Once the grade goes over 15%, on the fixed, lack of efficiency nearly goes infinite, meaning it's almost impossible, and in a double where it hit 20%, I was hoofing it. 

Descending, I *can* hit around 35 mph sustained on the fixed, but it takes a lot out of me. I have to raise off the seat, supporting my weight with my legs, and focus on spinning really fast -- all the while my freewheeling friends, are sitting there next to me nice and relaxed, actually recuperating during the descent. If coasting speeds exceed the 35 mph, then it's hopeless. Nonetheless, speeds over about 25 mph sustained usually are not worth trying, as it's very fatiguing and the chafing gets pretty bad. So, in reality on the descents I run about 25% to 50% slower than coasting.

I can't stay in pacelines at 25 mph, no matter how easy it would be to sit in. Sustaining 130 rpms, even under little power, is too fatiguing.

So, what I find is that at the beginning of a double, I'm losing ground to all sorts of people. Even those I can climb with, they are blowing me away on the following descent. However, by about half way, it evens out. By definition, the people around you are riding at the same *average* speed, so you tend to stay around them. However, they are typically descending much faster, and I'm climbing much faster, at least on the sections under around 6%. On the flats, we tend to be fairly evenly matched by that point. By very late in the ride, I tend to find myself around people who are more and more similar to my speeds, even if we are doing a bit of leapfrog, me faster on climbs and they faster on descents. 

So, if there are long steep hills, you'll tend to do a lot of leapfrog with the coasters. On a ride with few or at least short hills, you can probably stay pretty close.

Something to keep in mind is that other riders may not have ever ridden around a fixed gear bike. When people ride behind a coasting bike, people tend to catch on quickly that the lead rider is slowing first by their ceasing to pedal. Of course, you can slow significantly on a fixed bike while still pedaling and with no braking. Also, coasting bikes typically will stop pedaling through turns, while we always pedal. Near the end of the Climb to Kaiser two guys following me crashed as I made a right turn (which I signaled), as they did not expect me to turn while pedaling. They got inside my rear wheel. They were ok. So, I learned that it's a good idea to warn people around you that you never stop pedaling, and exaggerate your signaling of intentions to be safe.

As to gearing, I essentially gear for my hardest climb. If I have too tall a gear to get up the hill, nothing else matters. Run the tallest gear that allows you to climb your hardest hill. Then, you'll be as fast as possible on the descents and flats. For me, riding long events in the mountains, that means about 66 to 70 gear inches, and even then it can require extreme measures to get up the hardest sections and avoid disintegration on the long descents.


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Yes, forget pacelines. Whenever I do organized century and double century rides on the fixed gear even with several thousand riders out there, I usually end up doing the entire ride solo.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

When I told my regular riding buddies that I had turned my De Bernardi into a SS/fixe, one of them immediately asked: "You're not going to show up on on rides with it are you?"

I thought that was funny. I can see riding with the group riding single speed, but I would be dangerous fixed. The problem would be riding in a paceline. I would have to outclimb most of the group just to keep from bogging down on the hills, but would lose ground on some of the downhills -- particularly if I got stuck behind someone who slowed down a lot. The hardest part would be staying in a paceline on the flats where the average speed was over my limit for sustained spinning.


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

But generally speaking, FG riders are very stable at holding their speed without much variance. If a guy directly in front of me stops pedalling to coast, there is an immediate drop in speed.


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## GeoKrpan (Feb 3, 2008)

theone29 said:


> just curious. if you do, what is your gearing? and are you able to keep up? i am thinking about it. thanks.


I will be trying this next fall but SS free, not fixed.
I would have tried it this year but I hadn't had a SS long enough to have learned how to ride it fast enough.
Also, I was clueless as to what gearing I would need.
After four months of riding SS almost daily I think 80 GI is about right.


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## cpcritter (Sep 24, 2008)

FatTireFred said:


> how is this possible? when the thread began on Mon pm?


Sorry, my mistake...I could have sworn I read this last week. Must be the cold meds.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

roadfix said:


> Yes, forget pacelines. Whenever I do organized century and double century rides on the fixed gear even with several thousand riders out there, I usually end up doing the entire ride solo.


That happens to me even with gears


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Touch0Gray said:


> That happens to me even with gears


You mean you don't draft?


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

i have been out to a few group rides where people have rocked up on a fixed wheel

when this has happened i have quietly made my way off the back and gone to ride elsewhere

its too dangerous when people you dont know and have no idea of their ability are trying to ride a paceline on a fixed wheel around geared bikes on open roads


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

roadfix said:


> You mean you don't draft?


as it turns out, apparently I either ride too fast or too slow......


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## Gene Kahn (Jan 17, 2008)

WHAT GOT LOST HERE, in this thread about staying in a group of roadbike paceliners
is simply that 

FIXIES ARE MORE FUN TO RIDE, and

well, not always the most practical for the job. I've done "club" rides and felt quite unwelcome, maybe 'cause of wearing cut-off Levis (horrors!) and, worse, passing
B grade riders while going uphill. 

Then again, I am not a club type of rider, tho I like company.


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## Alex_C (Aug 21, 2006)

*48x18*

It all depends on the riders. Fixed can be challenging in the paceline, you do have to pay more attention to the ebb and flow (and I would recommend a front brake). 20mph avg is fine if your gearing is right. Hills above 5% - going up isn't so bad, descent above 27-28mph can get painful.

I switched over to singlespeed instead of fixed solely for the downhills.


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## ukiahb (Jan 26, 2003)

alexb618 said:


> i have been out to a few group rides where people have rocked up on a fixed wheel
> 
> when this has happened i have quietly made my way off the back and gone to ride elsewhere
> 
> its too dangerous when people you dont know and have no idea of their ability are trying to ride a paceline on a fixed wheel around geared bikes on open roads


umm, pacelines are dangerous on ANY sort of bike with an unskilled or overextended rider....a fixie can be safe in a paceline if the pace is consistent and well within the abilities of the bike and rider, one of the standard drills in track racing class is to ride a paceline with a rotation on every lap...I'd agree that a fixie with typical road gearing would be unsafe in a really fast road paceline but they do fine at slower speeds


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

I did a couple of 1/2 metric Centuries on a fixed and had a ball. 48/18 is a good range for me on summer road conditions, at least around here. I managed to pi$$ a LOT of people off by cresting the hills and turning to go back down and do it again so I didn't lose the people I was riding with. Some people get upset when they are struggling on a hill (or walking it) and you are on your third time on a fixed gear. For pete's sake......it's just a bike......


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

Touch0Gray said:


> I did a couple of 1/2 metric Centuries on a fixed and had a ball. 48/18 is a good range for me on summer road conditions, at least around here. I managed to pi$$ a LOT of people off by cresting the hills and turning to go back down and do it again so I didn't lose the people I was riding with. Some people get upset when they are struggling on a hill (or walking it) and you are on your third time on a fixed gear. For pete's sake......it's just a bike......


I have a lot of fun with centuries on the fixed or singlespeed on climbs. I'm actually faster on most climbs with the Singlespeed. I run a 44/16-18 depending on the conditions around here, lots of fairly steep climbs. And yes it does get to some of the folks when you pass them on the way up. I did the Mountain Momma Century last year in Va. 10k+ feet of climbing. I got a lot of fun comments as I passed folks on the climbs. It's just a bike, but without all the extras.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

Sometimes other riders _don't even realize_ I'm on a fixed gear until several miles into the ride. I guess they just assume everyone is like them. I use a 39x15 and can keep up until a big tailwind leg. 

I've ridden fixed in large groups for several years now, and have never crashed or caused a crash while on it. By riding smoothly and predictably, we can make a ride more enjoyable and safe for all, regardless of the bike we're on. 

Wow, that sounds like a Public Service Announcement! 

_EDIT:_ I've never ridden in a group without a front brake. Hell, I'll never ride the road _without_ one.


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## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

I've joined shop rides on my commute home. Most of the time is worked out well and I've wound up riding comfortably with one of the middle group when the ride fragmented. Twice I've found myself on rides that were all about going up and down the steeper hills in town. With a 44x15 back then I had to slalom, which is pretty uncomfortable in a group, to climb the steepest hills and then couldn't spin fast enough to keep up with the other riders on the fast descents. Once we were done with the hardest climbs it worked out fine.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*yes*



roadfix said:


> But generally speaking, FG riders are very stable at holding their speed without much variance. If a guy directly in front of me stops pedalling to coast, there is an immediate drop in speed.


I worry more about the people on "regular" bikes not riding well around the fixie than vice versa.


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Fixed said:


> I worry more about the people on "regular" bikes not riding well around the fixie than vice versa.


I absolutely agree!
Especially with big pack rides, even with good riders present, there are always a bunch with questionable pack riding skills...


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

yeah, I've done it, but SS would be more appropriate (for me) in most cases. Lots of rolling hills including steep descents, together with the stunning attraction gravity has to my prodigious a$$, and fixie rides in groups suddenly gets sketchy for me. I can red-line and hammer up hills, but SS would help immensely in descents when I'm in close quarters.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

VaughnA said:


> I have a lot of fun with centuries on the fixed or singlespeed on climbs. I'm actually faster on most climbs with the Singlespeed. I run a 44/16-18 depending on the conditions around here, lots of fairly steep climbs. And yes it does get to some of the folks when you pass them on the way up. I did the Mountain Momma Century last year in Va. 10k+ feet of climbing. I got a lot of fun comments as I passed folks on the climbs. It's just a bike, but without all the extras.


they don't usually get upset till you pass them the second time on the same hill......lol


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

Touch0Gray said:


> they don't usually get upset till you pass them the second time on the same hill......lol


 My best was on bike Virginia last year. They actually had a "mandatory" walk on a climb because it was so steep (I'd guess 20% or more) and they didn't want anyone falling over climbing it. Most riders are casual tourers etc. As I got to the marshal I just politely rode around him and told him I was going for it. He said "pick your easiest gear", my response was "I only have one". I was dying at the top and tacking back and forth but I made it. As I stopped at the top to rest it was fun to listen to the comments when they realized I had done it on a singlespeed. I heard maybe 5 out of 2000 did the climb.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

one thing, it is a good bit easier to get unclipped on a SS than a fixed, you got some wiggle room if you know what I mean. 20% is mighty steep, I have done it on a fixed, but it was REAL short....say maybe 200 feet?


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

JustTooBig said:


> yeah, I've done it, but SS would be more appropriate (for me) in most cases. Lots of rolling hills including steep descents, together with the stunning attraction gravity has to my prodigious a$$, and fixie rides in groups suddenly gets sketchy for me. I can red-line and hammer up hills, but SS would help immensely in descents when I'm in close quarters.


My situation exactly. I can usually hang on to a pretty fast paceline by hanging on the tail and pedal, coast, pedal, coast from the back and let everyone else take turns. Yes it's lazy but it's the only way to stay on a 25+ mph paceline with a 44/18.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

ukiahb said:


> umm, pacelines are dangerous on ANY sort of bike with an unskilled or overextended rider....a fixie can be safe in a paceline if the pace is consistent and well within the abilities of the bike and rider, one of the standard drills in track racing class is to ride a paceline with a rotation on every lap...I'd agree that a fixie with typical road gearing would be unsafe in a really fast road paceline but they do fine at slower speeds


so what happens when one idiot up the front hits the brakes, like they always do, and the fixed wheel rider 3 wheels back is on a 92 inch gear? 

i race track and have no problems with a fixed gear being ridden very close to me. but when a fixed gear is in a line with bikes that have brakes, on public roads... carnage. and its not something i want to be a part of.

a fixed gear with 2 brakes in a paceline i have no problems with


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*clipping on big hills*



Touch0Gray said:


> one thing, it is a good bit easier to get unclipped on a SS than a fixed, you got some wiggle room if you know what I mean. 20% is mighty steep, I have done it on a fixed, but it was REAL short....say maybe 200 feet?


There is a "hill" near here that is about 60 miles into the Climb to Kaiser, with 13,500' climbing over 155 miles, from 400' elevation to 9,200' and back. The real PITA hill is "Big Creek," which rises about 2,000' in a couple of miles, maxing around 18% for some extended stretches. When I did this rid fixed, there were times on this hill that I just plain blew up and had to stop for a minute. Since the road is about 1 1/2 car widths wide, and starting straight up the hill on a fixed gear was not an option, you pretty much had to nail clipping in the first time your pedal came around. Toe overlap when traversing a bit became a big concern, too. There were guys with triples off walking, so I didn't feel too bad. Here's the profile:


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## ukiahb (Jan 26, 2003)

alexb618 said:


> so what happens when one idiot up the front hits the brakes, like they always do, and the fixed wheel rider 3 wheels back is on a 92 inch gear?
> 
> i race track and have no problems with a fixed gear being ridden very close to me. but when a fixed gear is in a line with bikes that have brakes, on public roads... carnage. and its not something i want to be a part of.
> 
> a fixed gear with 2 brakes in a paceline i have no problems with


your original post made no mention of the fixie rider being brakeless, that changes everything, in that case I'd agree they the rider would be very dangerous and doesn't belong anywhere near a road paceline...


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

Impressive stuff. Mountain momma advertises 13,800 over 100 miles but most people think that it is closer to 10-11k. But nothing that steep for an extended period. I'm convinced that one can climb almost anything with a 44/18 and some zigzagging and rest. When I did mountain momma I had to rest a few times on the steeper sections but when I was on the bike I tended to pass many more folks than passed me. You hurt on a geared or single speed bike, just in a different form.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

ukiahb said:


> your original post made no mention of the fixie rider being brakeless, that changes everything, in that case I'd agree they the rider would be very dangerous and doesn't belong anywhere near a road paceline...


yeha i didnt even think to make the distinction, apologies

i was referring to brakeless, or front only with brake lever not easily accessable in 'paceline emergency'

these are the type of clowns who rock up on fixed wheels to group rides around here

which enrages me


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## lalahsghost (Aug 27, 2007)

My buddy who is a XC mtn bike rider totally wiped the floor with me going up a 1.5 mile incline @ 8% avg... It was embarrassing. He got his first road bike from a buddy of ours this week, and has it set up as a single speed. I feel that I should have done more training during october- now.....


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## desmo13 (Jun 28, 2006)

I do it all the time. Sunday group ride. Paceline, just some rollers for hills, 20+ in the pacleine. I use a 42x14. I find it easier to vary my speed in the paceline than on my roadie. regulating speed with cadence is smoother and more precise than with brakes/sitting up/changing gears etc. (I do run a front brake)

The only draw back is a couple of long gentle descents, where the guys are in the big ring and ramping up the speed. 26mph cannot be held for too long with me that far into the ride. (45 mile ride)

Like another poster said, most people do not notice I am on a fixed until we stop at a regroup point. They just think I have funny bars (Soma urban pursuit.. bullhorns) I like them, they are long and I can really get into a aero position.

So yeah, fixed on fast group rides is fine. I even get some "wins" on some short sprints and short rollers) I can jump them before they know it. (no gear changing to give it away, plus I swear the acceleration is faster when you are not contending with derailleurs)


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## Marko Polo (Feb 5, 2005)

Up until last year all the group rides I did were on a fixie. I finally got a real (geared) roadbike last year. 
In about 2002 I bought a Langster so I could put on some road miles, to help out my mountain biking. I heard about a Tuesday night group ride and decided to show up. A few odd looks aside, I was wearing cargo shorts and hiking shoes, I was fortunate it was a cool group. I hung on the back and learned about riding in a group. 
I ran front and back brakes with a 48 X 18 gear on a mostly flat 35 mile ride, most of which was spent at 20-24 mph. I did that for a few years until I could no longer attend the rides due to my work schedule.
All in all it's not any different than riding a geared bike except the steep uphills and steep downhills.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*brake?*



Tig said:


> _EDIT:_ I've never ridden in a group without a front brake. Hell, I'll never ride the road _without_ one.


Yes, I hope the OP was not inquiring about a group ride with no brakes. That would be insane. As far as I'm concerned, bikes with no brake belong only on a track, with other bikes with no brakes.


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## illnacord (Feb 25, 2008)

*When in Rome, do as the Romans do...*

Ride with the fixed gear group, not the dura ace/sram group, and you fixed gear riders can together, and homoerotically, chafe on the 30mph downhill bomb. :blush2: 

On my weekly friday night broakland _Wheels of Steel_ rides (info to ride with)with single speed mountain bikes and fixed gear riders (yeah odd, but all welcome as the only rule is TWO WHEELS):::::: 

Typically, it's the fixed gear ratios (42x17) that exceed the single speeds (32:16) on the flats. But on the hills, the fixies are walking (some are champs and lance/mash up the incline) whereas the single speeds are catching up and pass. On a sustained decline hill, it's all over for the fixies. :idea: I stand up on my platforms and beat my chest like the alpha gorilla that I am, fly past buses and cars. But don't tempt the officer to throw the switches on the roof lights by blowing through a red light like I did last night!!! "I looked both ways, officer, really!"

Fixies group ride, how it's done (mini keg in one hand while hop braking = bonus points): MASH SF x AUSTIN below:


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*really big group*

Did the Solvang Century last weekend on my Pista. Over 5,000 riders there. Actually, the reaction from most was awe and respect, as I was passing them up the hills and hitting 35 mph down hills. You just got to love the feeling of passing people up a steep hill 80 miles into a ride where guys are walking their bikes with triples. No problems interacting with others, though, other than the typical issues presented by a ride like this.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Fixed said:


> Did the Solvang Century last weekend on my Pista. Over 5,000 riders there. Actually, the reaction from most was awe and respect, as I was passing them up the hills and hitting 35 mph down hills. You just got to love the feeling of passing people up a steep hill 80 miles into a ride where guys are walking their bikes with triples. No problems interacting with others, though, other than the typical issues presented by a ride like this.




typically "group ride" = paceline. pretty sure that is what most have been talking about. unless you are riding in a group/paceline/following a wheel/drafting, an organized event is just a big ride


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Fixed said:


> Did the Solvang Century last weekend on my Pista. Over 5,000 riders there. Actually, the reaction from most was awe and respect, as I was passing them up the hills and hitting 35 mph down hills. You just got to love the feeling of passing people up a steep hill 80 miles into a ride where guys are walking their bikes with triples. No problems interacting with others, though, other than the typical issues presented by a ride like this.


Good going. I haven't done the Solvang Century in several years but I remember climbing 'the wall' on my geared bike under torrential downpour. It sucked.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*pacelines*



FatTireFred said:


> typically "group ride" = paceline. pretty sure that is what most have been talking about. unless you are riding in a group/paceline/following a wheel/drafting, an organized event is just a big ride


There were pacelines with a hundred riders or more at a time in them. No incidents.


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