# rear derailleur adjustment with '09 centaur levers



## Campy-on-a-Trek

I'm having adjustment problems with my existing '07 10 speed record derailleur and the new '09 centaur levers. I seem to be able to shift up the cogs with no problem, but coming down there is hesitation in the middle cogs, then it is smooth going out with the last few (11-23 cassette). when I adjust for those middle cogs, the others shift poorly. My set up ran very well with my '07 record shifters and the Derailleur hanger is fine. With the new levers, I also installed new cables and housing. I also tried greasing the cable guide underneath the B.B. Do you think the cable is catching somewhere on the housing or cable stops as I shift out to the smaller cogs?

The centaur shifters are nice, but It is difficult to tell when shifting to larger cogs because you don't hear the familiar "click". Also, when i "zero out" the button to the smallest cog, I shift up just one click (I think), then when i push the button down (expecting only one click), it will click twice. So sometimes I am not sure if I have "zeroed out the smallest cog position. Thanks for any imput.


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## C-40

*info..*

Cable friction can be a problem with the new shifters. Did you install the new Campy ultra low friction cable housing and genuine Campy cables? If not, that is most likely the problem. I've had problems had to use Jagwire 4mm cable housing, when a vendor shipped me a 10 speed cableset.

As for zeroing out the shifters, just keep pushing the thumb button down until there are no more clicks. If you failed to go all the way down, you would be short one click and would not be able to get the chain to the largest cog.

The only other reason for hesitating shift to smaller cogs it too much cable tension. Use the least that still produces good shifts to larger cogs.


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

Thanks C-40. Yes I did install the campy housing and cables. I am going to check the cable housing for any possible places the cable could be gettin hung up too. Also do you think I should lube the cable before inserting it into the housing? Campy says that is not necessary.


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## dead flag blues

Funny. I had the same exact thing happen to me on my 2009 Centaur shifters. Still haven't resolved it. This didn't happen immediately, so I figured the original cables got gunked up, so dumped in some silicone spray, which helped for a few shifts. Then back to crappy. I threw on a Gore Ride-On sealed cable to keep the gunk out (it's my rain bike), and shifting is abysmal.


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

What I did is I took all the cables out and slightly lubed them. I put them back in and made sure there were no kinks in the housing anywhere. I replaced my old record chain and cassette with a chorus chain and cassette (forester link to attach). Took me a while to dial in (on the stand). Shifting from small (cogs) to large was fine, but still some hesitation from large to small . Took a short ride around the neighborhood and everything seemed fine. Then I rode up in the hills (Sonoma, Napa region of California) and it worked flawlessly. The centaur shifter "clicks" (for up shifting with the paddles) aren't as definite as my old record. But I got used to that very quickly. I love the ergo hoods and the longer levers provide much better leverage for braking. I am taking C-40’s suggestion: I bought a chorus cassette to replace my old record (more durable) and I am going to purchase an extra Chorus chain to rotate periodically to extend the life of my new cassette (using forster masterlink on both chains).


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## dead flag blues

Hmm... Maybe I need to remove my inner shift cable and lube it, then throw it back in. I did hit it with some Tri-Flow where I could.

All of my drivetrain is 2009 Centaur, and is brand-new. This is kinda frustrating.


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

might want to check the housing leading to the rear derailleur as well. If it doesn't enter to as close to a straight line (as possible), that could be a source of cable friction.


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## dead flag blues

Good point about the rear housing angle, i hadn't thought about that. Tho in the interim, I loaded up the inner cable with more Tri-Flow, and all is working perfectly. Like the 'lube port' (y-shaped insert for guiding shift cable) on the lever!


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## jpdigital

Make me #3 w/ the same issue. I know for a fact the cables aren't the problem, they were replaced when I installed the new levers (I too have them mated to 07 Centaur derailleurs). 

Feels like I have the tension on the cables right where it should be, as well as the limiting screws. I just can't get the middle gears to engage completely. 

Almost like I have to shift up 1 1/2 gears then have to shift down 1/2 to get it engaged, and even then it's not always completely in there. Is that kinda what you dealt w/ Campy-on-Trek? If yes keep sending suggestions this way.....


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## C-40

*still cables...*

Just because the cables were replaced doesn't eliminate them from suspect. I assume they were the new Campy ultrashift cables? That is a must. 

No one has mentioned cable routing. The shift cables can be routed in front or in back of the bars. The back routing would seem to pose the least resistance. I used to always choose the front routing, but not with the EC90 SLX3 bars I have now. The bend just behind the brake hood is too sharp.


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

Well, kinda what you describe. I would get hesitation going from large to small cogs and then when it would "shift down" it wouldn't be clean. there would be chain rattle. the only way i could get some engagement was to approach the desired cog from the other direction (shift outward to smaller, then back up to larger). But even then, I would get chain noise and pressing on the paddles (half way) seemed to help. I know my derailleur hanger is fine as I adjusted that with the park tool (dag-2?). I took C-40's suggestion about cable friction and did the following:

I took out all the cable and housing (from the right lever all the way to the rear derailleur). I made sure the the housing ends were lubricated and not restricted in any way (i pushed lube up the housing end and far as i could). Basically, any point along the path where the cable could possibly get hung up. I noticed that the housing piece that goes from the chain stay to the rear derailleur wasn't long enough. So I re-cut that, lubed ends and installed. After I did this, I adjusted on the stand. Going from small to large was perfect, but still a little hesitation from large to small. I did incremental adjustments with the barrel screw and kept going back and forth over the problem cogs. I eventually got it to shift (reasonable well) on the stand (going both directions). I then took it out for a ride and it worked flawlessly. In the end, I think it was a combination of friction plus my failure to make "fine" adjustments with the barrel screw.


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

I second was C-40 says. I routed the shift cables to the back of my bars.


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## dead flag blues

Good point, C-40. I always mount shift cables to the rear of the bar. Tho I'm using non-Ultra-Shift cables, I am getting good results using Tri-Flow on the inner cables.



C-40 said:


> Just because the cables were replaced doesn't eliminate them from suspect. I assume they were the new Campy ultrashift cables? That is a must.
> 
> No one has mentioned cable routing. The shift cables can be routed in front or in back of the bars. The back routing would seem to pose the least resistance. I used to always choose the front routing, but not with the EC90 SLX3 bars I have now. The bend just behind the brake hood is too sharp.


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## jpdigital

Yup, everything you've just mentioned I have: new ultra shift cables & routed behind the bar (although I prefer brake & shift cables both mounted in front). Campy says not to lube the cables, and mine are too new to really think about lubing them, but would that improve the shifting in the middle of the gear range?


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## jpdigital

I discovered my barrel adjuster on the rear derailleur was stripped so I couldn't adjust tension.
The extreme outer & inner gears were fine, but it the middle sucked. 
Took it to my LBS a couple of hours ago and that's what ended up causing my shift-misery. Had a new one installed and everything is good. Check yours out and see if it helps....


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## Thad Matthews

I have had the same problems as the others. Followed the directions to the letter and used all original Campy equipment. I noticed that the following:
- going for 12 to 25 cog, after the 16/15 cog it the system seem to go out of alignment.
- shifting up the stack was ok, but coming down from 25 to 16 was not working well
- at one point i was counting 10 clinks to move the chain 9 movements, not 9.

I adjusted the rear derailleur by starting at the 25 tooth cog and working my way down. This works ok, but a little hesitation in some spots. Now I have some trouble when going from 14 to 12 - it jumps straight to 12.

I wonder if the actuation all of the new (11 and 10 sp) ergo shifters are different from old 10 sp and therefore it lets out the wrong amount of cable when used with a 10 sp rear derailleur. I wonder what would happen if you put a 11 sp rear der on. The new 11 sp rear ders are suppose to have a different actuation from the old 10 sp design. If all of the ergos (10 or 11 sp) are really designed to mate to new actuation of the 11 sp rear der the resultant cable throw should be correct for 10 or 11 speed train.

The other answer could be that Campy screwed up and made the index disks of the new centaurs ergo the same as the 11 spd (or at least the first batch), just minus 1 gear. That is a possibility. If that is the case use a 11 speed rear cassette and a 11 spd rear der and you will not be able to access 1 dear. 

Can some try this combo out? What will happen if:
• You use an 11 sp rear der with the new centaur
• If it is still not in alignment, what happens if you add an 11 spd cassette (for the spacing)


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## C-40

*info...*

Campy did not change the cable pull on the 2009 10 speed shifters. It's the same as in the past. I have measured it.

The new 11 speed RD, will work on 10 speed, but it does travel slightly further since the actuation ratio is slightly larger, but in my testing it seeemd to work OK.

If a 10 speed RD is installed on an 11 speed drivetrain, it will come up short on travel. I've posted a fix for this. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=160601


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## Thad Matthews

Hi C40

Considering the problems that people are having with the new Ergo 10 shifters, which rear der. do you think will work best, the 10 spead or one of the 11 sp rear ders.

The problem that I seen when I was fiddling with my shifting was that when the rear der did not move enough at the top end cassette (23 to 16)


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## C-40

*more...*

I would not buy an 11 speed RD unless you really plan to upgrade to 11 speed in the near future. If you want to try increasing the RD travel, then try the modification that I have explained. It's simple to do.

If you have a cable friction problem, then a RD change is not going to eliminate that. When there is excessive friction, the shifts to larger cogs should never be a problem. It's only when you shift to smaller cogs that the problems occur, since the spring force is not sufficient to overcome the cable friction. About all you can do is leave the cable tension as loose as possible, but still permit decent shifts to larger cogs.

The only other solution is find the source of the friction and eliminate it.


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

Thad. Before you consider modifying your rear derailleur, please consider cable friction (per C-40's) suggestion. Could your (rear derailleur) cable be getting "hung


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

Thad. Before you consider modifying your rear derailleur, please consider cable friction (per C-40's) suggestion. Could your (rear derailleur) cable be getting "hung up" somewhere? Check the entire cable/housing path, especially the rear derailleur housing (as it enters the derailleur, does it approximate a straight line?). As I mentioned, I re-installed my cable and housing and that seemed to do the trick (1000+ miles and still shifts great). Best of luck.


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## dead flag blues

So far so good. Shifting with 2009 Centaur system is still fantastic. 

I'm certain I should pay better attention to cable-routing, but Tri-Flow has helped immensely!


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## xxxxx

I am having the exact same problem as Thad. I can get it adjusted to shift well everywhere except the 12-13-14 cogs. When looking at the alignment. of RD with the cogs, it looks like the are not staying in line. I can either get the top cogs or the bottom shifting well but not the whole range.

Everything is new, the RD hanger was double checked, I thought it was cable friction. After try everything with the campy cables, I am now using a Shimano XTR cable & housing which are very low friction.

I'm stumped and I have been wrenching Campy a long time. Please help!


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## Bicycle019

I am also having the same issue w/my 09' Centaur group. I have been using Campy for years, and have years of bike shop experience so this is a bit fustrating. Shifting is great at the low and high end of the range, but suffers in the middle with lags and very hesitant shifting. The main problems seem to be in the 15/16/17, both coming up and going down.

Hanger alignment is bang on as checked with my Park DAG.

I'm using a new Campy cable and housing set, and there is no friction/kinks. All ends that were cut were ground flat and the openings are not crimped in any way.

New 10spd Centaur UD cassette, 13-26 for the hills here in CO.

I've tried adding extra lube (Tri-flow) to all housings from the front shifter all the way to the rear derail loop. No funny bends in the housing, nothing out of the ordinary.

Unlike others I am using a wipperman chain (10s8). Not convinced it's the chain though as others using Campy chains seem to have the same issues. Will be ordering a new Campy chain this week though to try out just in case.

The bike shifts OK, but not great, on the road but worse in the workstand. I know from past experience that my Campy groups have needed some "running in" to really shift smooth but this seems out of the ordinary. The new 11 spd Record group that I installed on a friends bike has none of these issues and shifts like a dream right out of the gate.

I've messed around with cable tension and b-spring tension to no avail. 

At this point I've been riding it as it is and dealing with the hesitant shifting, but I'd love if somebody had some insights on how to get this fixed.


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## ClassicSteel71

I have the same problem on the 4th cog... Tried everything to adjust it. I'm glad I don't like the new ergo's and i'm going back to my 06 Chorus shifters.


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## xxxxx

I have gotten mine to the point that it shifts well except in the 2nd cog. To adjust it, I started with a barrel cable adjusted almost fully out and then started adjusting in the largest cog (25) and reduced cable tension until there was no hesitation in all the down shifts. This only left a problem in the 2nd cog (13) because the cable tension was too loose. It stays in gear on this cog but it makes a bit of noise.

If anyone has anymore insight please share. It seems to me that there is a design fault with the new Centaur levers in regard to cable pull.


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## The Green Hour

I'm finding this thread very interesting. I was pretty much set on going with this group to replace my 2000 Chorus 9 speed, but may either upgrade my shifter to ten or go with all new Chorus 11.

Back in early 2000's there was an issue with the "G spring" and "carrier" on the Ergolevers. The carrier (IIRC) was susceptible to cracking which resulted in poor shifting. Campy upgraded to a new G spring and carrier which I ended up Installing just in case, eventhough I didn't have any issues. 

This sounds like Deja Vu all over again, not a major issue but one that may involve some small parts to be replaced to truly solve the issue. 

The old Branford Bike was a godsend and they are sadly missed by many Campyphiles....they would certainly have a solution before "anyone admits there really is an issue"....:thumbsup:


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## C-40

*info...*

For those who think that there is some sort of cable pull issue with the 2009 shifters, I can assure you that there is not. I've measured the cable pull for both older and 2009 models and it remains unchanged.

I would not use the front routing for the right shift cable and be sure to use the new ultra low friction cable housing. If all is done properly, the new shifters should work fine.

Those having problems should make certain that they have all the cassette spacers in the right position. I'm also thinking that it might be possible to install the first cog in more than on timing position, which could foul up the cog timing, relative to the second cog. The other cogs can only be installed in one position due to the single small spline that insures proper timing.


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## xxxxx

Have you compared the performance of the cable in regard to front vs. back bar routing. It appears to me that the back routing actually requires that the cable make a sharper bend on the exit of the mechanism.... Also, could the routing affecting the cable pull as the inner routing requires the cable to slide over the covex white plate.


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## C-40

*info...*



xxxxx said:


> Have you compared the performance of the cable in regard to front vs. back bar routing. It appears to me that the back routing actually requires that the cable make a sharper bend on the exit of the mechanism.... Also, could the routing affecting the cable pull as the inner routing requires the cable to slide over the covex white plate.



I have not compared the two routings. The bars I use have a sharp bend behind the brake hood and a short reach, so the bend in the cable housing just looked to be too sharp and a potential source of problems, so I used the back routing, despite the sharper bend in the ceramic cable guide. That routing has worked fine on all three of my bikes (one 10 speed, two 11 speed). There is nothing about the cable sliding over the ceramic cable guide that can affect the actual amount of cable pull.


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## boon

I'm having similar problems with shifting. i'm running centaur 09 and the upshift is a bit hesitant. downshift is fine. when i adjust the cable to remove the shift lag, it ends up with too much cable slack that drivetrain becomes noisy (rubbing) at the largest cog - it's as though the chain line is not properly indexed (when i pull on the cable at the downtube to take up the slack, the rubbing noise goes away). i wonder whether this might be due to having too much cable at the handlebar (cable is routed through the rear of the handlebar). when i got the bike built, i requested the LBS to leave some additional cable slack so that i can tweak my bike fit - specifically stem length and stack height. any thoughts?

boon


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## xxxxx

I'm on the edge of cutting my losses and switching to Shimano. I have spent hours on this problem, trying to find a solution & it is very frustrating and disappointing. I am coming close to making a final conclusion that there is a design flaw with new levers.


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## dead flag blues

Yeah, it kinda sucks. I'm happy I'm not racing on my 2009 Centaur.



xxxxx said:


> I'm on the edge of cutting my losses and switching to Shimano. I have spent hours on this problem, trying to find a solution & it is very frustrating and disappointing. I am coming close to making a final conclusion that there is a design flaw with new levers.


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## jpdigital

I just removed my chain, soaked it in solvent, then used brake-parts cleaner, dried it out, applied fresh lube.
Now my shifting is spot-on.


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## Bicycle019

Still having this problem...and boy is it frustrating. Got it to shift reasonable in the stand, then took it out on the road only to have it run super noisy and shift poorly. I have absolutely no problems at all with cable pull or friction in the housing. I have been running the shift housing behind the bars on my setup as C-40 recommended from the outset, so I don't think it's that issue.

Pulled the cassette off and double checked that all spacers and cogs are correctly oriented, which they were.

Cleaned the chain (I'm using a Wippermann) and removed all factory grease and relubed to no improvement. As a last ditch effort I'm going to replace the stock Campy shift cable with a Jagwire Campy specific cable tonight and see if that improves anything. If not I'm bringing the bike to Pete at Vecchio's tomorrow and letting him deal with it as I've had enough. I've got several hundred miles on the group now


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## Bicycle019

So I think the issue has been solved. Brought the bike into Veccios in Boulder www.vecchios.com for Peter to look at after work last week. He ran though the usual checks and tried some things but was having the same issue I was with consistancy when shifting both up and down the range, especially in the middle of the cassete. He asked me to bring the bike back in Saturday so he could take a further look at it. 

Peter normally does not take appointments on Saturday, and he said I would be the only one he took that day, for which I was very thankful as his current backlog for repairs is two weeks. Thanks Peter!

He called Saturday afternoon and let me know it was fixed. Turns out the issue is with the cable end seating, specifically not seating, in the shifter. Both Campy and Campy specific Jagwire cables (both of which I tried on my own first) had issues with the end not dropping into the proper spot. The ends were getting caught up, and even yanking on the cable would not cause the cable to seat correctly. Once corrected things improved greatly. 

Finally a swap out from the Wipperman 10s8 chain to a Campy one had things up to par.

For those of you out there that may encounter this problem check to make sure that your shift cable seats fully into the shifter. Hope this helps someone else out there.


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## dead flag blues

Good answer.. I'll check my cable ends that go into the ergo!


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## Old_school_nik

*One more story but a positive one...*

One more experience to add: This past weekend I installed new 09 Centaur levers on my 2008 Giant TCR advanced ISP to be used with my current 2005 Record 10 Sp rear (>30k Miles) and front Der. After reading through this discussion I have to admit I was a bit concerned since I am by no means a "black belt" mechanic like C40 - though I have done about 6 campy builds w/ 10 Speed and so decided to give it a shot.

After paying especially close attention to the seating of the shift cables in the lever bodies (there is not really enough room for the cable to fit into the lever) - I agree that that seems like the most likely place for cable friction or an outright issue to emerge. 

The hole that the installed cable must be threaded through to leave the lever and head into the housing seems almost too small in my opinion. I didn't mess with the hole but I did drop a few drops of Tri-flow into opening and on about 3 inches of cable. I ran the shifter cables to the back of my Easton SLX bars and I am happy to report superb shifting throughout the range. Given everything I have read I feared it would not even be an improvement over my old Record Ergolevers but the shifting is vastly superior. Much less throw than before and faster shifts. Only downside is lack of "click" going to larger cogs.

Two other build notes:
I used a new Chorus UN Chain and new Chorus 13-26 Cassette and am running Token sealed 10 Speed replacement pulleys on the 06 Record rear Der.


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

Hey guys, I started this thread and am happy to report my shifting is still working flawlessly. As i mentioned, when i reinstalled everything, I made sure the ends of the cable housing (where cables enter and exit) were lubed really well. Since then, no problems.


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## Thad Matthews

*what about 11 speed*

Hi Guys

Does anyone know if this is a problem with 11 speed? Just wondering because altimately we all be going 11 when campy makes the whole range 11 speed next year.

Thad


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## wombatspeed

*Another negative experience...*

This mostly in reply to Old_school_nik's post and describes my pretty frustruating experience with my 2009 Veloce shifters. Any suggestions much appreciated.

I have been having issues with poor shifting related to cable drag on my 2009 Veloce ever since I installed them a few months ago. I used the ultralow friction cables and have tried both the cable routings: in front and behind the bars (as suggested by C40). In my case the routing doesn't make a difference whatsoever. 

I first isolated my poor shifting as really being a friction problem. Typical symptoms: no problem shifting to larger cog, hesitation coming down to smaller cog; hesitation goes away when I tug on the derailleur cable, which releases the cable and positions the rear derailleur in the correct position over the smaller cog.

SO, WHERE IS THE FRICTION COMING FROM? All cables were first installed from a fresh package, and then, we I noticed the cable drag, with extra lube at all possible points (housing entries, under BB cable guide, inside shifters, etc..). As a test I moved the cable through the housing installed on the bike before clamping the cable at the rear derailleur. Everything moved extremely smoothly - except (and this is where my experience echoes Old_school_nik's) where the shift cables sit in the lever bodies just after the cable travels of the cream colored plastic/ceramic guide. I agree there is not really enough room for the cable to fit through the holes inside the hoods. There is quite a bit of friction. As Nik writes " I agree that that seems like the most likely place for cable friction or an outright issue to emerge." 

It seem rather silly to have ultralow friction cable housing only to create additional friction by making the hole a bit too small where it enters the housing. Any thoughts?

I also replicated the friction problem with another brand new set of 2009 Veloces and with a brand new shifter cable. To isolate the problem I threaded the cable through the too-small hole in reverse direction. That way this precludes any issues that someone else mentioned above about the cable end not sitting properly in the shifting mechanism. Again, there is a lot of cable drag. Even when I added extra lube. Why or why, Campy, are you doing this???? 

MY MOST LIKELY SOLUTION: Make the hole bigger! If you look into the cable holes of the shifter from behind you can see that there is a (kind of transparent) plastic insert that makes the hole artificially small. A 1.5mm or 2mm drill could get this out and the cable would be free to move. ANY SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHY I SHOULD NOT BE DOING THIS?

Or I might take the easy way out and go back to the 2006 Centaur shifters that the 2009 Veloces replaced. The old style shifters have none of these silly small holes that create friction.

Just to add: I did make sure that the cable end sits properly in the shifting mechanism and that the housing sits ALL the way into the shifter. So that is NOT the problem.


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## Bicycle019

wombatspeed said:


> SO, WHERE IS THE FRICTION COMING FROM? All cables were first installed from a fresh package, and then, we I noticed the cable drag, with extra lube at all possible points (housing entries, under BB cable guide, inside shifters, etc..). As a test I moved the cable through the housing installed on the bike before clamping the cable at the rear derailleur. Everything moved extremely smoothly - except (and this is where my experience echoes Old_school_nik's) where the shift cables sit in the lever bodies just after the cable travels of the cream colored plastic/ceramic guide. I agree there is not really enough room for the cable to fit through the holes inside the hoods. There is quite a bit of friction. As Nik writes " I agree that that seems like the most likely place for cable friction or an outright issue to emerge."
> 
> It seem rather silly to have ultralow friction cable housing only to create additional friction by making the hole a bit too small where it enters the housing. Any thoughts?
> 
> I also replicated the friction problem with another brand new set of 2009 Veloces and with a brand new shifter cable. To isolate the problem I threaded the cable through the too-small hole in reverse direction. That way this precludes any issues that someone else mentioned above about the cable end not sitting properly in the shifting mechanism. Again, there is a lot of cable drag. Even when I added extra lube. Why or why, Campy, are you doing this????
> 
> MY MOST LIKELY SOLUTION: Make the hole bigger! If you look into the cable holes of the shifter from behind you can see that there is a (kind of transparent) plastic insert that makes the hole artificially small. A 1.5mm or 2mm drill could get this out and the cable would be free to move. ANY SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHY I SHOULD NOT BE DOING THIS?



I also noticed this when trying to diagnose my problem. It seems that the cable has a somewhat sharp bend to make when transitioning from vertical to horizontal in the shifter body. In the shifter body where the cable exits to enter the shift housing there is a small brass (?) washer that has an o-ring to seal against the cable. Speaking to the guys at Vecchios about my problem they mentioned that it's possible for this washer to be cocked a bit when pushing the cable through it. Make sure it's flush with the shifter body otherwise it can create some drag. You can pull the housing out and view the washer from the back of the shifter body.

That washer/o-ring combo would also be why I would not try and drill out the hole. One thing I did, which seemed a bit barbaric, was take an older cable and thread it through the shifter body and then take each end in hand and pull it back and forth through the lever body. A lot. I figured this would help clean up the path the cable travels through and get past any "break in/wearing in" phase and minimize friction. After a few minutes of pulling the cable back and forth there was less friction through the lever body. 

While it helped my initial problem, it didn't cure it. Once the issue of the cable end not seating correctly inside the shifter was corrected shifting has been much better.


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## wombatspeed

*Dealing with the O-ring - An alternative barbaric approach...*

Thanks for your advice Bicycle019. I have looked into the shifter from behind and have seen the brass washer with the bit of plastic inside (which I am learning from you is an O-ring). So I can understand exactly what you are talking about.

So that's a thought, just to use an old cable and basically massacre (or more politely: 'wear in') the O-ring ;-)). CALL THAT SOLUTION 1.

I will check whether the washer is in straight. In any event, I can't imagine why they put the O ring there in the first place. What is that O-ring supposed to keep from moving down the cable? Moisture? Dirt? Hard to imagine given that this O-ring sits inside the shifter body. So, if indeed this O-ring is superfluous then how about finishing to job properly and use

THE MORE RADICAL SOLUTION 2: take out the O-ring from the washer. For that I would have to get the washer out (presumably I can somehow use a needle and push at it from the cable entry side (the side where the cream colored plastic guide is). Solution 2 should in theory work even better as it totally eliminates any drag - the cable should see little friction rubbing over brass, no?
So, SOLUTION 2 > SOLUTION 1 ??

Finally, regarding the cable end sitting properly inside the shifter: I looks like mine does (hard to tell, though, even with a flashlight), but do you remember how Vecchios sat it properly? Just file down the end cap a little to make it a tiny bit smaller?

Bottomline so far on the Ultrashift shifters: I love the shape of the new hoods, which for me more than makes up for the lack of a crisp paddle shift. But what was Campy thinking when they decided on the cable routing? In addition to the friction issue we are discussing here, having to use a 2mm allen (or whatever tool your prefer) to hold down the cable to thread it into the cable hole is just 'pants' [as they say in Britain].


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## tom_h

My recent experience with 2009 Chorus 11 may not be completely relevant to the 10-speed Centaur/Veloce systems, but here are some things I learned during Chorus install:

Campy instructs that the "Ultra Low friction" cable/casing for the Ultrashift Ergopower levers, has been " ... _pre-lubricated with special grease in the half of the casing where there are *no* Campagnolo logos_ ..."

This _did_ seem to be the case-- when I "test" inserted a few inches of cable in one of casing, there was little or no evidence of lube. On the _opposite_ casing end, the cable came out with a thin, lightweight, silicone-like lube. 

Apparently, pushing the cable thru the correct end of casing (_without_ Campy logo) will spread lube to the remainder of the casing. The "no Campy logo" end should be the end inserted into shifter assembly. This preserves the casing's straight, square cut factory end in the shifter body. 

(On _brake_ casing, I also made a point to insert a factory-cut end into shifter, and do all my length trimming on opposite end. Also, brake cables have no lube).

I smeared a bit of my silicone lube on 1/2" of both ends of all shift casing, to ensure the casing slid completely against the shifter housing, and against the special, sealed end caps (tiny oring/gasket inside).

Further, I smeared my lube on the enlarged "anchor" end of the cables (shifter & brake), to ensure the anchor was able to easily & fully seat , all the way in. 

No significant issues after about 80 miles riding, but i do need to fine-tune the cable tension & maybe limit screws a bit ... I think the shifting speed (toward larger cogs and big chainwheel) could be improved a bit.


----------



## charlieboy

*new ultra shift cables OK with 'old' 10 speed ergos??*

I was thinking of upgrading to 11 but now I'm holding off...

I need to get a new set of cables - will the new ultra shift/slick cables work with 'old' 10 speed ergopowers (chorus) or should I stick (!) with older cable sets too?

Thanks


----------



## C-40

*ferrules...*

The 11 speed cableset only comes with four shift cable ferrules, since non are needed at the ergo body of the new ultrashift levers. You'll be short two ferrules. Generic 4mm ferulles should work, you just have tp push hard to be sure that the cable seats into the bottom of the ferrule.


----------



## norguesa

*centaur '09-an improvement?*

This thread has been compelling. I've been debating going with the new centaur ultra-shift, but now I'm not so sure. I'm currently on the 09 centaur ergos from 02. They never shifted really great, and only recently a mechanic pointed out that the cassette and freewheel were set up for Shimano! Iwas always was a bit suspicious of my previous mechanic...

So what's the overall opinion? Is the new ultra-shift design a worthwhile improvement to the Campys, or are the older style Ergos still better?

Thanks for any opinions.


----------



## C-40

*info...*



norguesa said:


> This thread has been compelling. I've been debating going with the new centaur ultra-shift, but now I'm not so sure. I'm currently on the 09 centaur ergos from 02. They never shifted really great, and only recently a mechanic pointed out that the cassette and freewheel were set up for Shimano! Iwas always was a bit suspicious of my previous mechanic...
> 
> So what's the overall opinion? Is the new ultra-shift design a worthwhile improvement to the Campys, or are the older style Ergos still better?
> 
> Thanks for any opinions.


I sold all of my old ergos and have all '09 ultrashift (one 10 speed, two 11 speed). No regrets. I prefer the 11 speed though.


----------



## Old_school_nik

norguesa said:


> This thread has been compelling. I've been debating going with the new centaur ultra-shift, but now I'm not so sure. I'm currently on the 09 centaur ergos from 02. They never shifted really great, and only recently a mechanic pointed out that the cassette and freewheel were set up for Shimano! Iwas always was a bit suspicious of my previous mechanic...
> 
> So what's the overall opinion? Is the new ultra-shift design a worthwhile improvement to the Campys, or are the older style Ergos still better?
> 
> Thanks for any opinions.


I think I said this in my post above but, yes, while the install was a pain in arse, the shifting especially the throw is greatly improved from my 06 record set ups with the 09 Centaur 10. Would do it again. Maybe make my own custom tool to thread the shift cables back into the lever bodies though....


----------



## Iironick

Happy to read all the issues experienced (sorry) , but I thought only I was having a problem with Centaur ultrashift 09 !
Having had a R/H lever mechanism upgraded on warranty to later polymer bushing type (standard if you have carbon levers) this has improved changing from 60% to 99%.
I spoke to a campag service centre and they acknowledged following. The standard alloy lever has a standard metal bush which can sometimes stick slightly, hence the exchanged ultrashift mech for me.Also there have been issues with rear mech return spring not being strong enough. This should not normally be a problem if you have 09 components, but if you have an older rear mech and the new 09 lever there is not enough strength in the return spring to pull the cable with all it's built in friction.
Mine is now working acceptably to live with Campagnolo Centaur and add 11 speed back onto my wish list . 
The feeling between left and right levers is quite different due to the more efficient polymer bush on the right. The right hand lever is very slick and smooth enabling good shifting both ways.


----------



## wombatspeed

lironick,

VERY interesting to hear the differences in bushings in the 09 ultrashifters. 

I posted once or twice above complaining about my friction troubles with the 09 Veloce shifters. Well, I finally got things to work ok after removing the rubber O ring that is attached to the brass washer that sits inside the RH lever (the brass washer that functions as the rear derailleur housing end). Straight from the factory this rubber O ring causes lots of friction, as you can see if you take out the brass washer with the O ring and pass a brand new cable through it - it is very sticky. Once the O ring is removed (either with a fine file or an awl or rubbing an old cable through it for a few minutes) shifting is fine, with only VERY slight residual friction (compared to a 2006 centaur shifter set up). If the 09 Campy RD's have stronger springs, I can imagine the shifting to be 100%

By the way, I am running two sets of 09 Veloce shifters this way, one on a Tandem one on my cyclocross bike. Both of these are Hubbubed to shimano 9 speed derailleurs (XT and Ultegra, respectively) and cassettes.


----------



## Guest

*Frustrating!*

Centaur 2009 10 speed shifters with a 2006 record rear der. I'm having the same problem as everyone else and I've tried all the recommendations. Bad design Campagnolo. Maybe upgrading to 11 speed is the answer but it could be a costly experiment!


----------



## Litespeed2

*strange cure*

I've had the same cable friction problem too and have tried with varing degrees of success all of the aforementioned cures over a period of 4 months and around 3,000 miles. I've got two bikes with the 09 centaur carbon ultra shift shifters and the rest of the componentry is a mix of 10 speed record/chorus/centaur drivetrain. I seemed to come to the conclusion of most that the excess friction was located in the front cable routing; from the shifter to the downtube/headtube braise on adjusters (probably got the terminology wrong here). Anyways in a desperate move that will certainly have the Campy Gods after my soul I decided to try some Shimano SP41 4 mm housing, with the standard campy derailler cable. It instantly went to 99% great shifting. I did the same with the other bike and got the same result, great shifting. Anyways I ordered the cable housing from AEBike as they carry both shimano 5 mm and 4 mm housing and they used to carry (I'm not sure now) 10 packs of campy derailler cables which helps when you keep redoing everything trying to figure out what's wrong. I believe the new campy ultra shift cable housing is 4.1 mm so going to the shimano sp41 4 mm housing seemed close enough. Of course I'm perplexed why I'd have bad luck with the OEM housing I'm equally thrilled it's finally working so well. Almost forgot, I also replaced the rear cable housing loop at the chainstay/rear derailler junction.


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

Hi folks, I started this thread and i would like to say that my shifting is now spot on....But I can't..... in fact is became worse this last week. Just before the California Death ride. Is a last ditch move, I took my 06' Orca out of storage (it is fitted with dura ace). I tuned it and i am taking that with me. The ride is July 11th. When I return, i am not sure what to do with this campy set-up (I have it on my 07' orca). I have shamals too!! Maybe I may try the shimano housing. Or maybe i need a centaur rear derailleur. I don't want to give up on campy,but this really shouldn't be this difficult, right??


----------



## David Loving

Maybe go with Chorus?


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

Originally, I had 07 record and i wanted the 10 speed ergo levers. i heard the 09 centaur 10 speed ergos were compatible with record. chorus is only 11 speed now right?


----------



## Thad Matthews

Here is how I solved the problem:

since i am going to switch to 11 speed at some point i replaced my 09 Centaur rear der with and athena 11 rear der. I am still using a 10 spead chain and the rest of my drive train is 10 spd. The shifting is the best i have ever had. I have always been a campy man and have always used record and/or chorus in the past. and this (how fast and acurate shifting has become since adding the athena rear der) blows away everything that i have ever tried or used (campy 10/9/8, everything from shimano and Sram red)

So try this combo and you will be smiling.


----------



## jpdigital

*This answered a question I've been meaning to ask.*

My shifting as of this post still sucks. Horribly. I've tried everything mentioned related to removing the friction from the shift cable, and I might as well be using friction shifter. I can only assume by now that the problem must be in the [lack of necessary] tension in the rear derailleur springs.

With that in mind I wondered if an 11speed rear derailleur would work w/ the latest 10speed shifters (as the indexing takes place @ the shifter & not the derailleur). Seems like your post shows that it is possible. BTW, where did you get the Athena rear derailleur by itself? So far the only place I've seen Athena is PBK, & it's only offered as a comlete group there.

Thanks for the post!!!


----------



## Guest

*The Way It Should Be*

Finally had enough and bit the bullet and bought Chorus 11 speed shifters, rear der, cassette, and chain. Shifting is now fantastic! The way it should be.
Also, glad to hear that the 11 speed rear der. works with the 2009 10 speed shifters. I was wondering about that myself since I am convinced the main shifting problem with the 09 levers and older 10 speed gear is the spring strength of the der. Try Ribble Cycles for the Athena der.


----------



## Thad Matthews

*Chorus performance*

How fast / smooth is Chours sfiting. Is better that the 2007 Chorus. Does the new teeth profile of the rear cassette and front chain rings really make a difference?


----------



## C-40

*the facts...*

I tried my Record 11 RD on my 10 speed bike with Centaur shifters several months ago and found that it works fine, but here are the facts. The 11 speed RD does have a slightly larger actuation ratio and will travel a little further than a 10 speed RD. A little bit of extra travel is not objectionable.

The opposite setup also work with a little help. I used a Chorus 10 RD on my 11 speed bike and had no problem, with a small modification to the RD. The lack of spring pressure is not the cause of shifting problems, IMO.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=160601


----------



## ilRoberto

C-40 said:


> The lack of spring pressure is not the cause of shifting problems, IMO.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=160601


Been following this thread intently since I came across this problem on a customers bike and encountered same frustrations as everyone. Customer had '09 Centaur Shifters (from a previous '08 Centaur Shifter warranty....) mated to a '08 Centaur Group. Finally after spending enough hours and no solution working - called Campy this morning. Was told in fact it is a rear der problem. The spring is not strong enough to pull the cable back when released. They are going to warranty the rear mech now with one that has proper spring tension. I would venture to say that this would cause sloppy shifting not just with '08 Centaur but with any 10 spd mech mated to the new Ultra-Shift style shifter. I don't have another der/shifter set to test this theory however. You can identify the weak spring der by its conical almost oval shape vs. cylindrical. 

Not sure if they'll warranty everyone's rear der since this was a previous warranty issue. But I'm positive this is the solution.


----------



## dead flag blues

After reading your email, I called them too. I've got one of the afflicted rear derailleurs, I'll contact Comobike and ask how i should go about returning it.. Thanks for doing the legwork on this!



ilRoberto said:


> Been following this thread intently since I came across this problem on a customers bike and encountered same frustrations as everyone. Customer had '09 Centaur Shifters (from a previous '08 Centaur Shifter warranty....) mated to a '08 Centaur Group. Finally after spending enough hours and no solution working - called Campy this morning. Was told in fact it is a rear der problem. The spring is not strong enough to pull the cable back when released. They are going to warranty the rear mech now with one that has proper spring tension. I would venture to say that this would cause sloppy shifting not just with '08 Centaur but with any 10 spd mech mated to the new Ultra-Shift style shifter. I don't have another der/shifter set to test this theory however. You can identify the weak spring der by its conical almost oval shape vs. cylindrical.
> 
> Not sure if they'll warranty everyone's rear der since this was a previous warranty issue. But I'm positive this is the solution.


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

So dead flag? If I purchase a 09 centuar rear derailleur, that should solve the problem? I have 07 record and I doubt Campy would give me a warranty on my RD since I mixed components. Litespeed2 claims he solved the problem by using Shimano housing in place of the campy. Not sure what direction to take on this. I love Campy (when it's working properly), but my overall experience is that it's a pain.


----------



## jpdigital

I'll keep you posted Campy-on-a-Trek...


----------



## jpdigital

Campy-on-a-Trek said:


> So dead flag? If I purchase a 09 centuar rear derailleur, that should solve the problem? I have 07 record and I doubt Campy would give me a warranty on my RD since I mixed components.


Looks like Campy's gonna warranty my RD. I just got in touch w/ the LBS, who got in touch w/ Campy for me. The shape of the spring in question is shaped like (no pun inteded) question mark "?". I overnighted the RD to the LBS (I've relocated, but still deal w/ them) and hope to get a final answer very shortly.

The RD is an 07 that was mated to 09 Shifters, and up to this point it looks like Campy's willing to warranty the issue, so I'll keep you posted...


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

So what derailleur are they going to exchance the 07 for? I purchased my 07 record group through Cbike. that was two years ago so the warranty has run out Today, I was tempted to purchase a centaur derailleur to mate with the 09 centaur levers. This was from lickbike. I explained the situation to them, and they were convinced it was something else. I may take everything off and start over. Beginning with making sure the derailleur hanger is aligned. Well, thanks and keep me posted. I appreciate your help jpdigital


----------



## jpdigital

On the note of ordering overseas: I actually had bearings in an Ultra Torque Crankset seize on me. I purchased the crankset from ProBikeKit, but w/ my proof-of-purchase, I had my LBS warranty it w/o any issue whatsoever. I think I had to pay shipping and that was it. So if you explain the situation to the LBS (esp. if there's one you have a good relationship w/ they might be inclined to help you).

As far as the warranty period ending, I thought the derailleur would have a _three-year_ warranty (?). I could be wrong. As far as my derailleur, again, I think it might be beyond the warranty period, but as I've had this issue persisting for quite a while, I think that may have turned things in my direction as well.

Long story short, explain the situation to the LBS & they might work something out w/ you.

And I'll let you know how the issue gets resolved/ what my replacement is...


----------



## richylj

*RE Centaur 2009 Ergo problems*

Hi,

I recently "upgraded" my centaur 2004/5 groupset with the 2009. I've read with interest a number of comments being raised regarding shifting problems. I've been having huge problems getting it adjusted correctly, so much so that in desperation I re-fitted the "old" 2004/5 right ergo. The result with very little adjustment and using exactly the same cables and set-up was a crisp gear change, both up and down, and also no rattling gears.

Draw your own conclusions.

I can't say I'm overly impressed with my "upgrade"


----------



## jpdigital

richylj said:


> Hi,
> 
> I recently "upgraded" my centaur 2004/5 groupset with the 2009. I've read with interest a number of comments being raised regarding shifting problems. I've been having huge problems getting it adjusted correctly, so much so that in desperation I re-fitted the "old" 2004/5 right ergo. The result with very little adjustment and using exactly the same cables and set-up was a crisp gear change, both up and down, and also no rattling gears.
> 
> Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> I can't say I'm overly impressed with my "upgrade"



From what I understand now, it's a rear derailleur issue. At this point, Campy's gonna warranty my RD. I just sent mine off to fixed/retrofitted/replaced (I'll get it back next week, and post the results). 

If the spring inside the parallelogram has a _"?"_ hook at the end of it, that particular spring does not have the proper tension in it to pull back the cable on the new shifters. I'll post a pick this afternoon of the spring in question.


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

Talked to the folks at campy ( Carlsbad Ca. office). I explained my problem, and they had never heard of anybody complaining about shifting issues. Who did you talk to at campy? What number?


----------



## jpdigital

I had my LBS talk w/ someone (I think it might be through QBP). Based on the correspondance the guy seemed to be quite familiar w/ the problem. I'll ask my LBS guy if I can pass on the contact info to his "people" on to you...


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

thanks. I was going to tear my bike down this weekend, but i'll wait.


----------



## wheelsmith

beware of what rear mechs you fit, ideally fit the ones marked rx9 on the smart label with the rear half-hooked spring. some wholesalers and retailers still have 08 stock rebadged by campag as 09.
but i still have had problems with some builds using the 09 mechs, i believe it to be the outer cable compressing but i havnt found any outer small enought to fit to the lever to sample.
also the 09 levers still have a minor problem with fitting to handlebars with high gloss or laquered finishes but using a blob of epoxy resin/spray will solve this wthout having to over tighten the aluminium a/key nut.


----------



## richylj

I emailed the UK Campagnolo Approved Service Centre (Velotech Cycling LTD) and received this response which might interest people following this issue.


Hi Richie

Thanks for the mail.

It *is* a strong possibility that the spring tension in the rear gear is giving you a problem. 

You probably need an 09 Veloce or Centaur rear mech, as the spring tension in the rear gears from 2006 - 08 is lower, designed to work with the "Escape" system. Some retailers (and in fact some manufacturers, to) are not aware of the difference in the rear gear and have supplied 08 rear gears as a result.

You can use any age of Chorus or Record rear gear, as these have always had the beefier spring.

The problem is variable across the early production - many systems are fine, but we have heard of instances like the one that you describe - we have referred the matter back to Campagnolo, and they say that in cases where this problem occurs, a change of rear gear should fix it & that has certainly been our general experience.

Other potential problems might be that you have avery early version of the lever where the cable bushing "hangs onto" the gear cable a bit, so giving you accurate shifting in one direction or the other, but not both. If you check the rear gear first, though, that's the most likely area - if the open end of the return spring inside the parallelogram is a half-circle, then that's an 09 gear, and your problem may therefore be in the shifter itself. If the spring is more like a 3/4 circle at the end - like a coat hanger - then the problem is probably the rear gear.

Hopefully that helps a bit?

If you need further info, do please contact us again.

Kind regards
Graeme
Velotech Cycling Ltd.
Campagnolo UK Approved Service Centre.


----------



## Litespeed2

*another related issue*

Hey guys, since my last post I've also been checking the forums on weight weenies and there is supposedly a part in the right shifter EC-RE017 which has been modified or upgraded to give a more distinct click on the upshifts. I called the Campy rep in Carlsbad Ca. and he indicated no one else seemed to be having these shift/friction/derailler problems and that the aforementioned part could not be had and was strickly for the 11 speed shifters. Now I don't think this upgraded index disc or whatever it is would be the cause of shifting hesitation but a more distinct click would be welcome from my perspective. Also the Campy rep indicated that only the whole body assembly could be purchased. and the EC-RE017 part can't be purchased seperately. Interesting from 2 points: 1. on the parts breakdown it shows this part to be in all right shifters from 09 Veloce thru Super Record, he was very cordial and tryed to be helpful but posibly not correct and therefore credibility becomes a problem for any other questions. 2. no one else is having problems, seems like a lot of us have. Anyways a little more to contemplate.


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

Hey Litespeed! is your "strange cure" still working? I am considering installing Shimano derailleur cables in place of my campy. Please let me know.


----------



## Litespeed2

*strange cure reply*

Campy on a Trek, yes I've got way better rear shifting on both bikes since I changed to the shimano cable housing (SP-41), but you have to use Campy derailler cables because the head shape is different than Shimano. The SP-41 cable housing is grease filled and the diameter is 4mm. Shimano also makes a 5 mm cable housing which of course would not fit in the shifter. I probably overstated 100 % cured but it's better to the point where I'm enjoying the way it works instead of constantly fiddling with and getting distacted and discouraged and it seems overall quieter as I think before it would be quiet when first going to a smaller cog then get noisy as the cable released a bit further (this is conjecture on my part). Once in a while I miss the upshift but I think that has more to do with the soft click on the new shifters. I never get any hesitation to the small cogs now and that probably was bugging me more than anything. By the way I use Campy 10 speed chains and keep the drivetrains very clean and lubed (every 75 mi. ride) so at least that shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## C-40

*more info...*

The part that would need to be changed out is EC-CE160, not EC-RE017. EC-RE017 is the same for all ultrashift levers, 10 or 11 speed. It's the mating part that has the index detents that needs changing.

I've read other reports that the guys at Campy USA know very little about their own product.


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

So you are saying that you are using shimano cable housing in the right shifter (for the rear derailleur) with the exception of the portion of housing that goes from the chain stay to the back end of the rear derailleur? that section has to be campy?


----------



## Litespeed2

*cable housing question*

Dear Campy on a Trek, I'm using the Shimano cable housing SP-41 in both routings. That would be from the shifter to the downtube and the chainstay to the rear derailler. I don't know if it was necessary to do the loop to the rear derailler also but I wanted to do both in case the friction could be in the new Campy cable housing. Also you have to use the Campy derailler cable since the head shape is different. I didn't change housing on the left shifter as that one works OK aside from the chain once in a great while wanting to hang up on the 50 tooth chainring on the downshift to the 34 tooth chainring. I'm pretty sure that isn't a cable friction issue. I'm very interesed in C-40's post on the actual part in the right shifter that would have to be replaced to possibly give the upshift click a bit more feeling. C-40, your knowledge on these and other issues sure has helped me a lot over time. Would you happen to know if in fact this particular part has been changed for a firmer click or just a rumor to get guys like me excited.


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

Thanks a lot litespeed. I'll give it a go tomorrow.


----------



## jpdigital

*Pictures of each of the springs in the Paralellogram*

I took a picture of both RD tension springs for comparison on this forum. Take note of the "correct" spring vs. the "wrong" spring.

The "wrong" spring has a fuller circle:
View attachment 174213


The "correct" spring in not fully circled at the end, more like the half-circle:
View attachment 174214


----------



## jpdigital

I recieved my replacement derailleur from Campag Friday, installed it and took it for a short ride. It looks like the replacement derailleur is a refurbished unit with the proper spring (see pictures I posted further up on this thread).

The shifting still isn't quite there, but it's much better than it was w/ the derailleur w/ the wrong tension spring (I effectively had "indexed friction shifting, it was *bad*). But I basically mounted the derailleur without much dialing in (I was just happy to get it & was excited to ride, I guess). At this point I'd say the shifting is where it was when first started experiencing the poor shifting.  I'll try a few more things on the adjustments, as well as using the Shima-no (or perhaps Jagwire) cable housing...


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

Gave up trying to mate the 09 centaur levers with my 07 record group. I put my old 07 record levers back on (and changed absolutely nothing else), and the shifting has returned to excellent. I purchased these levers on ebay, so I don't think I have any warranty on them. Oh well, who's the idiot huh??


----------



## jpdigital

I'm _almost_ there with you, man. Got my rear derailleur replaced, rerouted/replaced the cables (and some of the housings). Shifting doesn't suck as bad as it did before, but still in fact sucks.:mad2: 

Feel like my last ditch effort will be to replace _all cables_ with _brand new Ultra Low Friction Cables_ and see what happens. If that doesn't work, I'll prob switch to 11sp Chorus or Athena carbon---as I'm addicted to how comfortable the shifters are.


----------



## Campy-on-a-Trek

Yeah, I know what you mean about the shifters. I may go 11 sp chorus when I can afford it.


----------



## boon

richylj said:


> I emailed the UK Campagnolo Approved Service Centre (Velotech Cycling LTD) and received this response which might interest people following this issue.
> 
> 
> Hi Richie
> 
> Thanks for the mail.
> 
> It *is* a strong possibility that the spring tension in the rear gear is giving you a problem.
> 
> You probably need an 09 Veloce or Centaur rear mech, as the spring tension in the rear gears from 2006 - 08 is lower, designed to work with the "Escape" system. Some retailers (and in fact some manufacturers, to) are not aware of the difference in the rear gear and have supplied 08 rear gears as a result.
> 
> You can use any age of Chorus or Record rear gear, as these have always had the beefier spring.
> 
> The problem is variable across the early production - many systems are fine, but we have heard of instances like the one that you describe - we have referred the matter back to Campagnolo, and they say that in cases where this problem occurs, a change of rear gear should fix it & that has certainly been our general experience.
> 
> Other potential problems might be that you have avery early version of the lever where the cable bushing "hangs onto" the gear cable a bit, so giving you accurate shifting in one direction or the other, but not both. If you check the rear gear first, though, that's the most likely area - if the open end of the return spring inside the parallelogram is a half-circle, then that's an 09 gear, and your problem may therefore be in the shifter itself. If the spring is more like a 3/4 circle at the end - like a coat hanger - then the problem is probably the rear gear.
> 
> Hopefully that helps a bit?
> 
> If you need further info, do please contact us again.
> 
> Kind regards
> Graeme
> Velotech Cycling Ltd.
> Campagnolo UK Approved Service Centre.


Well, i decided to act on Velotech's advice and replaced my Centaur 08 rear derailleur with a Chorus 08. The LBS also replaced the cable inner and housing with a "SP41" (shimano?) housing and inner. The shifting has improved but not quite perfect; there is still a slight hesitation going up and down but no where near as bad as it was with the Centaur 08 rear derailleur. i think i'll stick with this for now until spring rolls (southern hemisphere) around when i'll switch over to Chorus 11-speed.


----------



## spangelsaregreat

Hi,

I discovered this thread after a very frustrating last week trying to get some new Veloce Ultrashift levers to work.

Basically I had bought both the Veloce and Centaur levers to put on my commuting bike and road bike.

The commuter is a Giant XTC frame on carbon rigid forks and a mix of shimano, campag and SRAM. The road bike is a Giant TCR with 2008 Centaur throughout. Both have Ambrosia Shimano spline/Campag spaced cassettes.

I fitted the Veloce's to the XTC using a 2008 mirage rear mech. I immediately had the problems of shifting described here. This was a clean install with new low friction cables. I initally thought it was either a fault lever or a bent rear mech. I tried the Centaur lever on it but it did not improve and then tried a new 2008 Veloce mech with the same issues.

I contacted the UK Campag service centre and they diagnosed the rear mech as the problem due to the spring type. I found an old 9sp Mirage mech with the stronger spring and fitted it. I have got the shifting to work to about 80-90%. There is still some slight hesitation going down the block but not much. I am hoping it will get better with use (as some campag stuff does).

When trying to sort out the issue I definately narrowed it down to the lever, specifically at the bend through the white guide. I could see when the mech was not down shifting by pulling on the cable on the top tube the cable moved slighty in the guide.

I have lubed this thoroughly now but there is obviously still some friction. The only other thing I can think of is the fact I am using a 10sp Ultegra chain on the XTC. Might try a campag one if it does not get any better.

I decided today to try fitting the Centaur levers to the TCR fully expecting the same issues and to having to eBay the 2008 mech and buy a 2009 one.

HOWEVER, it worked perfectly on install!! I can't explain why but I guess this issue must be the luck of the draw! 

One thing I have noticed is the Centaur levers have a noticiblely better click when upshifting. The Veloce lever is very light and it is not always possible to tell you have shifted. Both have the same click downshifting. I think I am going to see if I can get some Centaur internals for the Veloce righthand lever.

Sorry I am not offering a Eureka solution but at least I have resolved the issues to a workable solution. Will let you know if the Centaur internals make a difference or if the XTC shifting gets better with age.

Regards


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## C-40

*internals...*

Your experience may have supported the rumor that Camp made a running change to the index disc on the 10 spped ultrashift levers. The 11 speed index disc has deeper detents that creat more distinct clicks from the right finger lever, compared to 10 speed. It's been rumored that Campy changed the 10 speed index disc to match the 11 speed model.

It's not a matter of Centaur or Veloce, but the date of manufacture. The more distinct click most likely comes from a newer model shifter. All of the internal parts are essentially the same, regardless of the model. 

I would call the right finger lever downshifting, since it makes shifts to a lower gear. Is it the right finger lever that you find different? I have very early Centaur 10 speed shifters and they have an extremely light right finger lever click, just like others report. The thumb button clicks are quite distinct - no different than 11 speed as far as I can tell.


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## ericjacobsen3

*Americ Classic cassette shifting problems?*

OK, I have had Veloce Ultrashift levers for a year. Lucky for me, I have ~05 veloce derailleurs with the good spring. I had some trouble on my first install, but after removing what may have been some housing gap caused by front routing and taping pulling the housing out of the body, shifting on a campy cassette has been good. The taping to pull the housing out may be a big reason front routing to cause problems but certainly can be avoided w/ care in taping, starting at the lever.

My problem is only with the AC conversion cassettes. After about a year and 4000 miles with old and new ultrashift veloce levers, the AC cassettes stop shifting well -almost as if the chain is sticking when shifting to a smaller cog. Cannot get good shifting both directions. Campy cassettes seem "jumpier" to release the chain and worked great with both levers.

Has anyone seen this same issue of good shifting w/ the campy cogs and bad shifting with AC Campy conversion cassettes?


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## spangelsaregreat

C-40

I will change my terminology to upshift (smaller cog) and downshift (larger cog) to avoid confusion 

I phoned the Service Centre today and asked about getting a better click from the Veloce levers (rode the bike to work today and there is almost no feedback from the lever at all. The shifts have been fine though). They explained the index disc is actually unchanged. The reason for the more distinct click in the Centaur lever is that it will have 3 tension washers instead of the 2 that are in the Veloce. They are going to send me an extra tension washer which should hopefully get the click back.

Will post the results today.


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## C-40

*spare parts...*



Litespeed2 said:


> Hey guys, since my last post I've also been checking the forums on weight weenies and there is supposedly a part in the right shifter EC-RE017 which has been modified or upgraded to give a more distinct click on the upshifts. I called the Campy rep in Carlsbad Ca. and he indicated no one else seemed to be having these shift/friction/derailler problems and that the aforementioned part could not be had and was strickly for the 11 speed shifters. Now I don't think this upgraded index disc or whatever it is would be the cause of shifting hesitation but a more distinct click would be welcome from my perspective. Also the Campy rep indicated that only the whole body assembly could be purchased. and the EC-RE017 part can't be purchased seperately. Interesting from 2 points: 1. on the parts breakdown it shows this part to be in all right shifters from 09 Veloce thru Super Record, he was very cordial and tryed to be helpful but posibly not correct and therefore credibility becomes a problem for any other questions. 2. no one else is having problems, seems like a lot of us have. Anyways a little more to contemplate.


EC-RE017 is not the part that affects the distinct click of the 11 speed right finger lever. It is part EC-CE160, the part that has the indexing detents in it.

Campy has revised the spare parts PDF and it now shows none of the these parts with individual part numbers that can be purchased separately.

The front rachet is no longer a separate spare part either and the back internals are now sold as one group EC-CE110. See page 38 of the PDF below.

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/Spares09-A-230309.pdf


One of the last postings about the clicks suggests that adding an extra diaphragm spring (belleville washer) may make the click more distinct. That might help, but the real problem is the index disc. I recently converted a Centaur 10 speed shifter over to 11 speed, using nothing but the index disc and front rachet from a wreck-damaged Record shifter. It now shifts just like a Record 11 shifter. I have it running 11 speed with a 10 speed RD, modified to increase the actuation ratio. I'm using Shimano cable housing with a Campy cable and it's shifting great.

I also found that the Centaur shifter does not have ball bearings on the main pivot shaft, but this is not hurting the performance at all. As in the past, the Centaur shifter uses a plastic bushing. Campy's spare parts PDF, despite being revised, is not accurate with regard to what shifters have the ball bearings. I can't say where the change is being made. It could start as high up as Chorus, but there's no way to know unless someone takes one apart.


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## ericjacobsen3

*09 Veloce bad, Chorus 11 marginal*

OK folks, I am in pretty deep. My veloce 10 speed early '09 levers were even getting bad with my campy cogs, almost as bad with AC. Have the stiffer spring thankfully. Was headed to new Chorus 11-speed anyway.

So, my new Chorus is marginal shifting on 11-23 cassette. Going from the 19 to 21 sometimes doesn't go. Every thing else works, but is a revolution or two of the cogs to move. My expectation is that I should be able to click one notch up or down when not pedaling. After 18 years of ergo / STTI I expect any system to be able to do this. My '95 Record levers did this great. WTF Tullio?

So I have learned some interesting things:

-Chorus lever body is more cut away at housing entry than Veloce. Chorus socket for the housing is just a few mm and not the 1 cm of the Veloce. Not sure if this makes any difference but suggests Campy did some redesign over the last year.

-Veloce has a metal nautilus disc the cable wraps around and no real socket for the cable end. You can see this with the shifter off the bar. I found that some of my problems were the cable end unseating as I down shifted and the cable went slack. Spring from the der was not enough to pull the end to reseat. Pushing on the end made the der go to the smaller cog right away. As there was no socket, all I could do was superglue the cable end on the nautilus thing. This helped a bit but still not enough.

-Chorus 11 bought a week ago has a plastic nautilus with a true socket that captures the end well enough to not unseat. Pushing on the end does not improve shifts to smaller cogs. This should be an improvement and avoid superglue on 11 speed. *Anyone w/ newer Centaur/ Veloce have a plastic nautilus w/ a true socket recess for the cable end*

-To understand the still sluggish shifts to smaller cogs I took the Veloce off the bar and shifted to the smaller cog tat was sluggish (21 to 19 again on 12-23 10-speed cassette). Turning upside down while still connected to cables, I can see the permanently arced cable pulling away from the Nautilus even though the end is superglued. When I pull on the chainstay cable the arc comes out and the cable moves straight against the cam and the shift occurs finally!

I already reamed out the silly O-ring so there should not be much friction there. Everything is lubed well already. *I can only conclude that my remaining problem is due to the cable taking a prebend arc over time that no longer wants to pull straight easily.*
* I don't have a new cable to test the theory that no prebend will work better but will get one.

So, I am wondering if Powercordz cables might work better because they are so flexible. Anyone try these or those Japanese super cables that blew away Cyclingnews recently?*

I still don't know why my Chorus 11 is sluggish.  I sure hope Campy doesn't bankrupt themselves making 11 speed a dubious investment, as it appears so far.


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## jpdigital

ericjacobsen3 said:


> So I have learned some interesting things:
> 
> -Veloce has a metal nautilus disc the cable wraps around and no real socket for the cable end. You can see this with the shifter off the bar. I found that some of my problems were the cable end unseating as I down shifted and the cable went slack. Spring from the der was not enough to pull the end to reseat. Pushing on the end made the der go to the smaller cog right away. As there was no socket, all I could do was superglue the cable end on the nautilus thing. This helped a bit but still not enough.


Yeah, I've noticed that as well. I took some pictures but never got around to posting them to this thread. Upon dismounting the shifter and seeing where the cable could snag on the inside, I noticed the cable head getting cought on body of the shifter, as there was nothing for the cable head to sit in (is a recess for the cable head to sit into would prevent such contact). Even grinding down the cable head didn't seem to prevent _all_ contact.

One of my questions is is if Campag as the internals available as a kit, if there's a recess for the cable head.


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## ericjacobsen3

*Update*

Did some more checks. Even though I drilled through the Oring with a small drill, I had a lot of friction still at the hole. Redrilled next size larger drill and ensured the white insert allowed a smooth cable path (tended to shear cable with body). Shifting still not perfect but much better. The superglue on the cable end may not have been needed now the friction at the hole is lower.

Next step is to try a new cable with no bend at all.


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## C-40

*info...*

The O-ring is not the cause of the friction problem. If anything, it's the cable guide just ahead of it. Be sure to grease the guide. Removing the O-ring was a waste of time.


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## Campy-on-a-Trek

On the 09' centaur levers that I (gave up on), this white plastic piece (cable guide) would easily pop out whenever I changed or lubed the derailleur cable. It seemed rather cheap. Are the Chorus and record 11 speed levers designed the same way? Are the cable guides the same?


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## C-40

Campy-on-a-Trek said:


> On the 09' centaur levers that I (gave up on), this white plastic piece (cable guide) would easily pop out whenever I changed or lubed the derailleur cable. It seemed rather cheap. Are the Chorus and record 11 speed levers designed the same way? Are the cable guides the same?


The cable guides are the same. They are supposed to come out easily so they can be replaced. They just sit in a recessed area, /there is nothing holding them in place. I can only assume that the plactic was chosen for it's specific low friction characteristics. I've not seen any indication of wear in the area where the cable touches, so it seems to being working as designed.

My '09 Centaur shifters are working great, as 11 speed.


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## charlieboy

*other possible source of friction in ultrashift levers*

Just done an install of athena levers and noticed another possible cause of RD cable friction, which may be useful to know...

It's hard/fiddly to thread the inner cable through the shifter, over the little cable guide.
If you put all the cable up through the lever, so that the end bobble is engaged, and then continue to thread the cable out over the cable guide through the exit hole and out to the cable casing, you may have to give the cable a yank to pull the last inch or so completely through, which can put a very nice kink in your inner cable which then jams very nicely in the outer cable casing under your bar tape.

so thread that inner cable carefully folks, with your spare cable that you luckily kept around :thumbsup:


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## em3

charlieboy, your method of installing a cable on new 11-speed ergos is exactly what NOT to do...as evidenced by your experience that resulted in a kinked cable. You are correct, however, that your method will result in lots of unnecessary cable friction that will lead to poor shifting results. 

For correct installation, instead of pulling the entire cable through you need to first thread the cable into the cable guide insert and then pull the cable through. The best way is to use a wide flat head screwdriver to gently hold cable down as you thread it through the exit hole of the guide...it may take a couple of tries, but a bit of patience and a steady hand will yield positive results.
EM3


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## charlieboy

*Duh*



em3 said:


> charlieboy, your method of installing a cable on new 11-speed ergos is exactly what NOT to do...
> 
> Yes I know that, I was just sharing my idiocy so others may not follow
> 
> 
> 
> em3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best way is to use a wide flat head screwdriver to gently hold cable down as you thread it through the exit hole of the guide...it may take a couple of tries, but a bit of patience and a steady hand will yield positive results.
> EM3
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and that's the best way to do it right! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...


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## ericjacobsen3

*Threading cable*

Of course kinking the cable to get through the guide is not good -normally.

My levers had a slight pinch between the yellow guide and lever body such that I could not feed the cable through even pushing with a flathead. Of course you might consider widening the gap between pieces if it really is pinched.

However, if you have a long new cable, you can use the part that you cut off (near the end without the stop) and let that kink and then cut off the kink. In doing this I noticed that the kink is much worse for the back of bar route than the front route. In the front I was able to unbend and remove any appearance of a kink before I cut it off.


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## jpdigital

ericjacobsen3 said:


> However, if you have a long new cable, you can use the part that you cut off (near the end without the stop) and let that kink and then cut off the kink. In doing this I noticed that the kink is much worse for the back of bar route than the front route. In the front I was able to unbend and remove any appearance of a kink before I cut it off.


This techinque was recommened in an updated Road Bike Maintainance book (guess which one...) that has Campag 11-speed repair/mainainance instructions.

Personally, what I've done is put a crease in the far end of the cable (the part that's gonna be cut upon complete installation), after I thread it through the ceramic guide I try to _ever-so-carefully_ try to "uncrease" some of the crease, so the cable will go throuth the housing more smoothly.

...also, running the cable throught the ceramic guide isn't _that_ hard if you look over the top of the shifter while you're threading it (kinda hard to decscribe in written word, but w/ the shifter mounted to the bar, look _down_ through the hole so you're looking at the floor through it, that way you'll kinda see light peeking through, and it's easier to aim things as you're threading)


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## artnshel

*Replacement Ergo Disc helped but didn't solve the shifting problem*

I've had my 09 alloy 10s Ultrashift Centaur levers for a year and they have never shifted right as well as having an overly subtle shift click.

I bought the updated Ergo Disc from Vecchio's for $20 and put it in today. I asked for the EC-CE110 kit and Jim said this was the right part but there was no part number on the bag. With Jim and Peter's verbal instruction not to lose anything or take out the spring behind the fabric washer, the switch was easy enough. (Vecchio's rules, thanks Jim)

The shift detents are now much more positive and I am pleased with the improvement to this part of the lever function.

Unfortunately my shifting is only a little better and still not right.

I am fairly sure the cable and housing aren't the problem as Vecchio's installed them for me last spring in an effort fix the shifting. I am running a year old 10s Chorus rear derailleur so that also shouldn't be the problem. I think the problem is excess friction where the cable goes through the little Y cable guide in the lever body. I had the levers off and can feel lots of resistance when I move the cable back and forth in the lever body. I lubed it and that helped but not enough. Pushing the cable through the cable housing both front and back is smooth. My under BB cable guide is clean and lubed. Btw the parts I took out of the shifter were dry and the black thumb release lever had some of it's finish worn off from friction. I used a little grease for the reassembly.

They put the cables behind the bar when they redid them so I've tried both slots in the Y guide but I still think it is the problem. When we get into spring a little ways I'll re-cable the bike to see if that helps.

If I can't fix it I'll spend the money on Sram (which is already on my cross bike and shifts great) or Campy 11speed shifters, cassette and chain even though I don't like relying on an expensive chain which needs an even more expensive tool. If only the campy levers weren't so darn nice to hold.


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## ericjacobsen3

Artnshel,
Your experience with '09 centaur is just like mine with '09 Veloce with the weak clicks. Even though I have the stronger Veloce spring, after 1 year of use my 10 speed shifting is generally crappy. At one point tons of grease and drilling out the Oring seemed to help buy now I am back to crappy on the Veloce.
What I notice is a little fiddling with the thumb lever gets the shift to a smaller cog to go finally as if the sprung ball settles deeper in the notch. This makes me wonder if there is enough more friction in the Veloce/Centaur bushing rather than bearing levers to cause such an issue. I had been thinking that maybe the deeper click washer would push fully into the notch better, but from your experience I guess not.
It also is interesting that Campy never put bushings in Chorus 11sp. It is almost as if they knew that they would sully the reputation of 11sp by getting crappy shifting there. Just a hypothesis. I wonder if Athena has lever bushings and not bearings.


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## artnshel

ericjacobsen3 said:


> Artnshel,
> ..... This makes me wonder if there is enough more friction in the Veloce/Centaur bushing rather than bearing levers to cause such an issue. I had been thinking that maybe the deeper click washer would push fully into the notch better, but from your experience I guess not.
> It also is interesting that Campy never put bushings in Chorus 11sp. It is almost as if they knew that they would sully the reputation of 11sp by getting crappy shifting there. Just a hypothesis. I wonder if Athena has lever bushings and not bearings.


I think C-40 posted that he didn't think there was much difference between the the bearing an bushing shifters. 

I thought my mechanism was a little sticky before so when I found dry parts it made sense.


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## C-40

*suggestion..*

I would never reuse a shift cable and maybe not even the housing, once it has been in use for some time. If you make changes to the shifter, at least use a new cable when the shifter is reinstalled. I've had good luck with Shimano housing on my winter bike. I converted the Centaur shifters on it to 11 speed. I tried reinstalling the lightly used cable and had an extreme case of excessive friction, so I took that opportunity to install Shimano housing with a new Campy cable.

I'd also ask if those having problems if they every took the shifter apart and checked for adequate grease or just lubed the small gap between the index disc and ball retaining plate with a heavy oil. I've found shifters that were nearly dry from the factory. The lubing can be done with the shifters on the bike.

As for the bearing/bushing topic; it's unclear whether Chorus has bushings or bearings since Campy's literature is wrong and I've never read of anyone taking a Chorus lever apart to verify the bearing. I'm relatively certain that Athena and below have the bushing, but Chorus may also. 

My converted Centaur shifters are working just fine with the bushing.


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## jpdigital

*thanks for the suggestion.*



C-40 said:


> I'd also ask if those having problems if they every took the shifter apart and checked for adequate grease or just lubed the small gap between the index disc and ball retaining plate with a heavy oil. I've found shifters that were nearly dry from the factory. The lubing can be done with the shifters on the bike.


I'll have to try that. Is there a particular lube/grease you'd reccomend for this?


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## C-40

*grease...*

Just about any light grease would work, but for oil it should be something heavy. Most household oils are very light weight. The thickest oil I can think of is 90W gear lube. Only a couple of drops would be required.

I've used Park Poly lube for years, but now I'm trying Mystik No. 2. I got a large tube for about $2 at Walmart. Seems like good stuff.


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## jpdigital

*wow!*



C-40 said:


> Just about any light grease would work, but for oil it should be something heavy. Most household oils are very light weight. The thickest oil I can think of is 90W gear lube. Only a couple of drops would be required.
> 
> I've used Park Poly lube for years, but now I'm trying Mystik No. 2. I got a large tube for about $2 at Walmart. Seems like good stuff.


Put a few drops in the mechanism before my ride earlier this afternoon. Shifting is now _perfect._ It didn't skip a beat. After all the frustration (and previously trying to lube the mechanism), it finally shifts like it should have to begin with.

For the record, I used TriFlow, mainly because I had some laying around and it was easier to apply with the nozzle dripper extention thingie.


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## artnshel

C-40 said:


> I would never reuse a shift cable and maybe not even the housing, once it has been in use for some time. If you make changes to the shiftter, at least use a new cable when the shifter is reinstalled. I've had good luck with Shimnao housing on my winter bike. I converted the Centaur shifters on it to 11 speed. I tried reinstalling the lightly used cable and had an extreme case of excessive friction, so I took that opportunity to install Shimano housing with a new Campy cable.
> ....
> .


Yes, I have been a little too thrifty with cables. I'll put new stuff in.


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## ultraman6970

bump

Bump


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