# Lance Is Better Than Merckx...



## Akirasho

... or so says "The Cannible" himself...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/nov04/nov26news

*Merckx: "Lance better than me"

Speaking to the media at the Spanish Cycling Journalism Award in Madrid on Wednesday, Eddy Merckx praised his personal friend Lance Armstrong to be "a better rider" than himself. The Belgian, who many consider to be the best cyclist of all time, said that "The Tour is the most important race and Lance is the one who won it most. I don't have a problem with the fact that he's topped me." 

However, Merckx somewhat toned down his words when he continued, "Cycling has different eras, be it Indurain's, Hinault's, Armstrong's or mine. Everyone of us has competed at a different time. What counts is to be the best of your generation. Beyond that, comparisons are never any good." 

The cycling legend further believes that Lance Armstrong will be at the 2005 Tour de France for a 7th victory bid, saying that the attempt might not be motivated by sporting goals only. "He'll end up riding the next Tour de France because his new team sponsor, Discovery Channel, will want to see him try for a seventh victory. He's got a great team and the race suits him perfectly, so he'll surely compete in it," Merckx said, adding, "It would be a shame if he wouldn't." 

As to potential successors for Armstrong at the Tour, Merckx named its best young rider in 2004, Vladimir Karpets, Giro winner Damiano Cunego, Alejandro Valverde and Thomas Voeckler. 

Further asked on his opinions on the ProTour, Merckx responded, "I'm in favour of it, because cycling needs to be known not only for the Tour de France. But the ProTour also has its flaws. For example, the next Tour of Flanders has to invite 20 teams, but only about 10 will come to the race aiming for possible victory. This might make some races less competitive and spectacular." 

On the ongoing plague of doping within cycling, the "Cannibal" also had a viewpoint to share, starting out by saying that, "This problem subsists not only in cycling, also in other sports. To find a solution, you need to ask the doctors, not the riders, because the doctors are the problem." 

Merckx also said to todociclismo.com that he was in favour of doping controls, "which are more and more sophisticated and reliable. But I don't agree on the principle of 'zero tolerance' in professional sport, because you need to differentiate between doping and products that help to keep healthy. Today, all of them are banned and that's not normal."* 

... notice that in his further comments, he also recognizes the difficulty/impossibility in making these types of comparisons... because of changing times and focuses... but it's still a noteworthy compliment from arguably, the Giant of the sport of pro road racing.


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## wayneanneli

Merckx is certainly generous in his praise, and gracious. I respect Merckx very much for saying what he has about Armstrong, but judging by their highlights alone, Merckx was still the better rider, no matter what the era. The Cannibal won 5 Tours, 5 Giros, 7 Milano-San Remos, etc, etc. Armstrong has won his 6 Tours, but his record in the "Classics" is nowhere near Merckx's. Sorry folks.


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## the bull

*Greg should learn from Eddy!*

Humble.....but Eddy is better than Lance.


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## coonass

*Merckx will always be #1 (IMHO)*



wayneanneli said:


> Merckx is certainly generous in his praise, and gracious. I respect Merckx very much for saying what he has about Armstrong, but judging by their highlights alone, Merckx was still the better rider, no matter what the era. The Cannibal won 5 Tours, 5 Giros, 7 Milano-San Remos, etc, etc. Armstrong has won his 6 Tours, but his record in the "Classics" is nowhere near Merckx's. Sorry folks.


Armstrong is definitely our King of the 20th Century but his resume will never match "The Cannibal" http://www.kings5.freeserve.co.uk/merckxpalmares.htm including 445 Professional victories....and if you review his Main victories, they were within the same year(s).....not taking time off for the TdF training, or warming up for competetive racing....the man was awsome!! 

YEAR	EVENT :
1966	Milan-San Remo
1967	Ghent-Wevelgem
"	Fleche-Wallonne
"	World Champion
"	Milan-San Remo
1968	Giro d' italia
"	Paris-Roubaix
1969	Ghent-Wevelgem
"	Tour de France
"	Paris-Nice
"	Milan-San Remo
"	Tour of Flanders
"	Liege-Bastongne-Liege
1970	Ghent-Wevelgem
"	Fleche-Wallonne
"	Tour de France
"	Giro d' italia
"	Paris-Nice
"	Paris-Roubaix
1971	Tour of Lombardy
"	Het Volk
"	Henninger-Turm
"	Tour de France
"	World Champion
"	Paris-Nice
"	Milan-San Remo
"	Liege-Bastongne-Liege
1972	Tour of Lombardy
"	Fleche-Wallonne
"	Tour de France
"	Giro d' italia
"	Milan-San Remo
"	Liege-Bastongne-Liege
1973	Amstel Gold Race
"	Het Volk
"	Ghent-Wevelgem
"	Paris-Brussels
"	Grand Prix des Nations
"	Giro d' italia
"	Vuelta a Espana
"	Paris-Roubaix
"	Liege-Bastongne-Liege
1974	Tour de France
"	Giro d' italia
"	World Champion
"	Tour of Switzerland
1975	Amstel Gold Race
"	Fleche-Wallonne
"	Milan-San Remo
"	Tour of Flanders
"	Liege-Bastongne-Liege
1976	Milan-San Remo
1972-84	Hour Record (49.431km)


25 Stage wins in Giro d' Italia	
36 Stage wins in Tour de France*	
(*96 days in Yellow jersey)


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## the bull

*Btw*

Greg was better than Lance.






imho


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## topcarb

Not even close...its Eddy by a handful of country miles, and Hinault by a couple too.


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## jumpstumper

Hey, topcarb, are you saying that Eddy is a liar? And who should I listen to in regards to the better racer? Eddy or you?


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## wayneanneli

jumpstumper said:


> Hey, topcarb, are you saying that Eddy is a liar? And who should I listen to in regards to the better racer? Eddy or you?


I think Merckx is just being political and probably doesn't want to jeopardize his friendship with Armstrong by coming out and saying "Yes, he is very, very good with his 6 Tours, but I did this, and this, and this...", even though he might be privately thinking it.


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## coonass

*I agree;*



wayneanneli said:


> I think Merckx is just being political and probably doesn't want to jeopardize his friendship with Armstrong by coming out and saying "Yes, he is very, very good with his 6 Tours, but I did this, and this, and this...", even though he might be privately thinking it.


if Lance's Pro race wins (under 40*) is compared to Merckx's, and I'm 'sure' that Merckx didn't enjoy the glamour world of technology that Trek bestowed on LA. Don't get me wrong, I think LA is one fantastic cyclist, but how can the two pro resumes even be compared?....the previous thread indicated EM's victories, but how many times did he finish 2nd or 3rd??
* http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/html/career


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## Coolhand

Its all part of the game- Lance has repeatedly said Eddy is the best of all time, and Eddy now is returning the favor. There is no right answer (other than its not Lemond, who isn't remotely in their class).


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## jarheadnyc

*Armstrong vs E. Merckx*

Both are amazing cyclist's but let's face it Merckx is the one and only Cannibal, look at his wins verses Armstrong. Eddy went out and just won every damn race during the entire racing season. Armstrong clearly train's every season to win only the TDF, he is just under peak condition before he enters the tour, so he peak's during the first week of the tour. I would love to see if he raced all the classics and the Giro if he would be as sucessful as Eddy. And guys face it the USPS team is like the NY Yankees if a rider is good he gets drafted into Postal, that team is just awesome. Just my 2c but both riders are truly legendary riders, but Merckx is in a league all his own.


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## Bianchigirl

Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Anquetil, Indurain - all have better palmares than Armstrong and all arguably had the opportunity to take 6 or 7 Tours - just they were busy riding a full season and winning other races...


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## Cerddwyr

the bull said:


> Humble.....but Eddy is better than Lance.


Humble, and that is part of why Eddy is better than Lance. Along with the fact that Eddy won lots of races in the same year, not just one race over and over.
Personally, I would like to see Lance attempt a triple crown. Just placing in the top five of the Giro, TdF and Vuelta in one year would be huge, and I would give him much more credit for trying and failing than I do for failing to try. 
Maybe that is what I like about Eddy, he entered so many races, he knew he was going to loose some, and he had the strength to face that fact and keep racing. He raced to TRY to win.
Lance, on the other hand, seems like he HAS to win, so he won't compete unless he has a really good chance, almost a lock, to win. Maybe next year Lance trys to win some other races, but until then, Lance is the best racer of the Worlds Greatest Race, and Eddy is the Worlds Greatest Racer.

Gordon


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## wongsifu_mk

*True, and...*



Bianchigirl said:


> Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Anquetil, Indurain - all have better palmares than Armstrong and all arguably had the opportunity to take 6 or 7 Tours - just they were busy riding a full season and winning other races...


... it seems obvious that the sport has changed dramatically since even the days of Indurain (not TOO long ago). Lance isn't the only one in the Pro peleton who specializes. Sure, Bettini may ride as a potential winner in many of the one day classics as well as the Tour but no one really considers him a GC threat in a 3 week stage race. Same goes for Rebbelin. The field has clear categories of riders who specialize in specific events and capitalize upon their potential within those specific events. Even with the Pro Tour at full effect, the teams involoved have just added riders to fill the requirement of participation in each Pro Tour race leaving riders like Armstrong, Freire, Rebblin and Cunego open to ride the races they have the most chances of winning.

The context of the pro cycling is too different these days compared to those of Anquetil, Merckx and Hinault. As for Eddy's comments about Lance--the Cannibal is just being a gentlemen. Some ex-pros still know how to be one.


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## jumpstumper

Bianchigirl said:


> Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Anquetil, Indurain - all have better palmares than Armstrong and all arguably had the opportunity to take 6 or 7 Tours - just they were busy riding a full season and winning other races...


And none of those guys took 18 months out of their racing career to fight cancer either, Bianchigirl.


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## Bianchigirl

No, they didn't - and I'm not as gracious as Merckx, either - but, really, it is a bit of a no brainer lads...


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## altidude

*Merckx Easily Better than Lance*

Merckx hands down. He raced all out the entire year, every year. As far as Armstrongs cancer goes, lets get real, the guy never came within lightyears of ever competing for the GC in the tour until he had cancer and lost 25 lbs of body weight. In fact it can be strongly argued that if Armstrong had never had cancer he would have lived out his cycling career in the 175 -180 lb weight range and never won even a single Tour.

Another guy not mentioned is Lemond. He lost 2 years while in the middle of his Tour successes to a gun injury. An injury which eventually resulted in a permanent blood poisoning condition which ended his career. Who knows how many Tours he would have won without that gunshot wound.

Merckx set the 1 hour record, won multiple Classics and the Worlds all in the same years, feats which Armstrong has not only never won, he's never even attempted them.


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## jumpstumper

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.  You could also argue that the level of competition is much higher now than in Merckx's day, and I seriously doubt anyone really thinks that surviving cancer is benificial to anyones racing career! All this has been discussed to death - guess I'm feeding a troll.



altidude said:


> Merckx hands down. He raced all out the entire year, every year. As far as Armstrongs cancer goes, lets get real, the guy never came within lightyears of ever competing for the GC in the tour until he had cancer and lost 25 lbs of body weight. In fact it can be strongly argued that if Armstrong had never had cancer he would have lived out his cycling career in the 175 -180 lb weight range and never won even a single Tour.
> 
> Another guy not mentioned is Lemond. He lost 2 years while in the middle of his Tour successes to a gun injury. An injury which eventually resulted in a permanent blood poisoning condition which ended his career. Who knows how many Tours he would have won without that gunshot wound.
> 
> Merckx set the 1 hour record, won multiple Classics and the Worlds all in the same years, feats which Armstrong has not only never won, he's never even attempted them.


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## topcarb

jumpstumper said:


> Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.  You could also argue that the level of competition is much higher now than in Merckx's day, and I seriously doubt anyone really thinks that surviving cancer is benificial to anyones racing career! All this has been discussed to death - guess I'm feeding a troll.


Youre being ridiculous. Obviously Merckx was recognizing Lance's 6 wins, which now stand alone as the most TdF wins. Im figuring he'd keep his palmares rather than trade with Lance. Level of competition higher? People say that, but then when you look at the names and accomplishments, thats rather hard to believe if you ask me. ike the Cannibal said, to be the man of your generation is as much as you can hope for.

As far as the cancer goes, Lance has repeatedly stated himself that without the cancer and attendant physiological changes, he never would have won a single Tour.\\ And of the 5 timers, hes the only one never to double or even win another GT. Lance is barely in Eddy's shadow if you ask me.

topcarb


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## wayneanneli

Hey Topcarb,
Let it go. If you, Bianchigirl, atidude and I start trolling with jumpstumper about Lance and his cancer, it'll be a never ending debate from his side. We know we're right, that's all that matters.  
Cheers, Wayne


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## Bianchigirl

point taken, Wayne...

here's a question, though - which era (Anquetil, Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain etc etc) would you love to have competed in/watched live?


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## wayneanneli

Bianchigirl said:


> point taken, Wayne...
> 
> here's a question, though - which era (Anquetil, Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain etc etc) would you love to have competed in/watched live?


Hey Bianchigirl,
Sounds corny, but probably Merckx's era just to watch him power up the mountains and blow people away in the flats. I was born in 1967, so just missed his achievements by a few years. What about you?
Cheers, Wayne


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## topcarb

*era*

I suppose maybe Merckx's era just because hes such the overwhelming best of all times. Its great to see the videos tho, so its possible to vicareous live some of it. What about watching Coppi in the 40s or Anquetil in the 60s? that'd of been awesome too.\

topcarb

ps. youre right wayne.


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## Bianchigirl

Coppi's duels with Bartali - Anquetil's Dauphine/Paris-Bordeaux double - Merckx/Ocana - Bahamontes & Van Impe...oh, and I wouldn't mind rewinding a few years to the glory days of Hinault and Chiapucci's legendary ride to Sestriere (not forgetting the amazing counter by Indurain)


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## thefunkyplumber

*I think you're all missing the point*

despite his almost obseqious abdication, I don't think that was what he was getting at
note "he's got a great team" and "the next tour of Flanders""less competitive and spectacular"
slight aside?

but more tellingly I think it was an admission that he used products "that help to keep healthy".
someone's always got the edge with science and the use of...
"the doctors are the problem"?
please


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## Coolhand

Bianchigirl said:


> point taken, Wayne...
> 
> here's a question, though - which era (Anquetil, Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain etc etc) would you love to have competed in/watched live?


Anquetil, probably one of the great thinking riders ever. Out of the greats, the probably least easy to see in action and the most interesting.


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## Bianchigirl

and a very modern approach to training, diet and tactics - really, quite a head of his time


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## topcarb

As trite as this sounds, I still long for watching Mig, even tho hes not been gone so long. Man, what a total class act, and despite being on the verge of the "new way" he still knew how to take care of bizz elsewhere. If he trained for the Tour only he STILL might be winning! Onya Mig, happy 40th.

topcarb


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## atpjunkie

*and we're forgetting*

and not to diminish LA's comeback.
Merckx Dorrie accident (Killed Dorrie Driver and gave eddy permanent pain)
Fausto's physical battles based from original imprisonment / Malaria in WW2 
Lemonds comeback from near fatal gunshot wounds
many of the greats battled back from severe physical damage, LA's is legendary but he is by no means alone
what I like about Eddy and Fausto most is besides killing it on the road they were fine trackies as well.


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## topcarb

exactly atp. So merckx rides a signifcant part of his career with a chronic back injury. Lance, for better or worse, suffered unimaginably, but once he recovered, he recovered. Eddy had to bite the bullet til the end. I know when my backs hurts, cycling gets quite a test of my abilities, little as they are.

topcarb


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## Fogdweller

Bianchigirl said:


> Coppi's duels with Bartali


I'm with you on this. And the Anquetil/Poulidor climbing battles of the mid 60s would have been incredible to watch, though I would have probably been off the back and missed them.

It's nice that everyone can have an opinion on this "Who's better?" topic.... even Eddy. As for me, Merckx will always be the man. Merckx did more in 5 tours than Armstrong will ever do, even if he wins two more.


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## atpjunkie

*if you chose Poulidors era*

you could watch the duels between him and Anquetil and Merckx. I think Eddy's in a perfect position. he can be humble as he knows that WE KNOW who the #1 is.


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## lemonlime

*Anquetil had to deal*

with being crazy. Check out the love life...what a nut!


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## Bianchigirl

and Coppi had to deal with the weight of the Catholic church against him because of _his_ love life...


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## wayneanneli

Bianchigirl said:


> Coppi's duels with Bartali - Anquetil's Dauphine/Paris-Bordeaux double - Merckx/Ocana - Bahamontes & Van Impe...oh, and I wouldn't mind rewinding a few years to the glory days of Hinault and Chiapucci's legendary ride to Sestriere (not forgetting the amazing counter by Indurain)



Armstrong-Ullrich pale in comparison to all those great battles you've mentioned. As great as a rider as Armstrong is, the fact that he races only 1 BIG one per year and then blows his competition away kind of makes the TDF rather boring.


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## bbnaz

*Just a Little Pot Stirring Here*

but of all of those illustrious names....how many of them were racing "clean"? I don't know nor do I profess to know but if racing is as dirty and cheating is as rampant as we have been led to believe in one form or another, do you suspect that none of these riders ever did anything to "enhance" their riding abilities?


other than train I mean


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## thefunkyplumber

*che pasa?*



bbnaz said:


> but of all of those illustrious names....how many of them were racing "clean"? I don't know nor do I profess to know but if racing is as dirty and cheating is as rampant as we have been led to believe in one form or another, do you suspect that none of these riders ever did anything to "enhance" their riding abilities?
> 
> 
> other than train I mean



I just tried to figure out how this came to my inbox
had to refresh my memory with a re-read of the thread,
it's been an interesting week for me
kinda cool to have the past catch up with me, again...

Hey at least someone's researching the archives
rbr archaeology

Atp should jump in (by the way, what does atp stand for?)
I'll go so far as to say that every one of us enhances our past, and even our present.
If we're lucky other people help create and enhance our myths.
Science, sport, and morality too, are fluid and everchanging.
If you want to be better, you do what it takes


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## dagger

*Merckx is the best rider in history based on the record books..but*

There is no way that any body in history on their best day could have beaten Armstrong on stages 15 and 16 in 2004's TDF.


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## atpjunkie

*well there's no way*

any body would have beaten Merckx in the legendary 69 break in the Pyrennese.
that is just a dumb statement, sorry.

atp - adenosine tri-phosphate

there's a website showing everybodies busts. Merckx was caught by the 69 Giro but even his closest rival Felice Gimondi thinks it was a frame up. he had a couple other items later in his career.

Anquetil openly admitted to usage in many claims and actually refused to take dope tests or snuck away.

Hinault- I'd have to check the site.

Miguel - well I hope not but his reign was during the 'new era' the first bloom of EPO and huge portions of the peloton were using but I refuse to convict anyone on ad populum evidence.


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## bbnaz

Interesting. Thanks for the insight....................

not even saying good, bad or indifferent, but just wondering if there was evidence/speculation that they had.


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## Jdawg

Bianchigirl said:


> point taken, Wayne...
> 
> here's a question, though - which era (Anquetil, Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain etc etc) would you love to have competed in/watched live?



Man, looking back, and having watched a lot of the races Merckx won many years later, I would like to say the Merckx era. However, I would also imagine that I might be bored. It was so amazing to look back and see what he did, but watching him win everything is a lot like watching the Bulls in the playoffs during Jordan’s Era. 

I became a fan watching Lemond, but as you know I am also a HUGE Lance Armstrong fan. Yes I do have national pride and that is definitely part of it. So, for selfish reasons I love both the Lemond and Armstrong eras.

As far as comparing riders, I still think it is very difficult and somewhat moot to do so, but with that being said, Merckx is the greatest hands down.

Does that take anything away from Lance and his comeback and his accomplishments? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I think Lance is one of the greatest cyclists of all time, and I also think he would have been even better if he had not had cancer. He was so aggressive and was so competitive, that I believe once he settled down he would have had many many more palmares than he does now, but thats neither here not there.

The man, came back not only from cancer, but HUGE cancer, and won 6 titles. That alone trumps a lot of other issues in this argument.

Just my .02


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## OnTheRivet

Bianchigirl said:


> Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Anquetil, Indurain - all have better palmares than Armstrong and all arguably had the opportunity to take 6 or 7 Tours - just they were busy riding a full season and winning other races...


I'd put Armstrong in front of Indurain (give me a rainbow jersey over a Giro win anyday) and closelose to Anquetil. One of the things people don't take into account with Tex (not a big fan by the way) was not that he won 6 TDF but in the manner he won. With one exception he Dominated those races. Gotta say one thing, 9 TDF wins by Americans and they have only been competing in the race for 30 years, not a bad winning percentage.


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## atpjunkie

*well just as Tour Dominators*

I'd put LA ahead of both Miguel and Anquetil (not as overall riders). LA dominated 2 phases of the Tour (Climbing and TTing) whereas Jaques and Miguel killed the TT and fought a battle of controlled losses in the Mtns. The were good climbers but didn't dominate Mtn stages in the way Lance has. Again, agreed not a fan either just comparing in a Tour V Tour performance.


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## thefunkyplumber

also worth remembering that 100 years ago you could legally get cocaine in your cola.
Before that everybody who was anybody used snuff. 
It's really only the last fifty years that the antidrug movement has taken over western society, and in cycling it was not really considered cheating for a long time, just one of those things people did. Tom Simpson's death was probably a bit of a turning point in the attitudes of people to jumped up athletes.
The definition of cheating via drugs has only slowly caught up with the realities, and unfortunately our sport seems to be the front line of the present shrill war on drugs in sport.
With so much new science being developed to understand and enhance athletic performance, even the athletes not using illegal methods are not really performing naturally. Science isn't ever going to leave sport, and while I'm glad there are rules to try to keep the playing field as level as possible, and to try to stop athletes killing themselves with lethal cocktails to stay competitive, the rules are always gonna be a step or two behind the latest technology available to the athlete. Welcome to our brave new world. The chemist and the chiropractor are both valid team members.

And the cream will always rise to the top, anyway. I'm confident that we're more or less still seeing the best riders winning, as we did twenty or fifty years ago.


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## tube_ee

*But who dominated the Tour more...*

Merckx or Hinault?

At first, a stupid question, I know. But I'm thinking... 

Eddy dominated the RESULTS like no one else ever did before or will again... But Hinault RULED the TdF. If he decreed that the stage would be slow... It would be. In 1985, he simply chose himself as the winner of the race. LeMond had the best of him that year, but Hinault spoke, and Greg had to wait until next year. He controlled the peloton by force of will for 7 or 8 years.

Who is the King of the Tour de France? And, no, though I have nothing but admiration for the man and his achievements, it ain't Lance, at least not by my criteria.

--Shannon "it's about more than winning" Menkveld


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## Jdawg

tube_ee said:


> Merckx or Hinault?
> 
> At first, a stupid question, I know. But I'm thinking...
> 
> Eddy dominated the RESULTS like no one else ever did before or will again... But Hinault RULED the TdF. If he decreed that the stage would be slow... It would be. In 1985, he simply chose himself as the winner of the race. LeMond had the best of him that year, but Hinault spoke, and Greg had to wait until next year. He controlled the peloton by force of will for 7 or 8 years.
> 
> Who is the King of the Tour de France? And, no, though I have nothing but admiration for the man and his achievements, it ain't Lance, at least not by my criteria.
> 
> --Shannon "it's about more than winning" Menkveld


Overall wins, Mountain Jerseys, Points Jerseys, Stage wins. That's where domination comes from and Merckx had it all the way. No question.


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## ttug

*Merckx the man*



Jdawg said:


> Overall wins, Mountain Jerseys, Points Jerseys, Stage wins. That's where domination comes from and Merckx had it all the way. No question.


100% agreement, No questions at all: EDDY


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## atpjunkie

*Badger was quite the Patron*

but no one put fear into the hearts of men like the Cannibal. No one made it 'a race for second' like Eddy as well.


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## tricycletalent

Let's turn the tables: who is the greatest runner of all time? Carl Lewis? Paavo Nurmi? Haile Gebresselassie? Grethe Waitz? Michael Johnson?

Everybody talks about the greatest cyclist ever, but you should in fact talk about the greatest ROADIE ever, why shouldn't we mention the cyclocrossers? The track specialists? (where you can actually set world records) The mountainbikers? (where the level is so high 10 people can win every race.)

But OK, I'll grab the bait. Let's say Lance or Mercxx. Which one is the best? Well, that would depend on how you weigh their wins, Lance has one TdF up on Eddy-boy. Or you could try to estimate their POWER OUTPUT. And you would see that M was awesome, but Lance is SUPERHUMAN. 

I don't even like Lance, but there is a word for denying him of the title "best roadie ever." That word is "gross negligence" There has never been so much money involved in the sport as now. Further, and perhaps more important; after introduction of synthetic erythropoietin, more guys were able to fight it out up front. Competition SUCKED when Eddy rode compared to now. Ask Andy Hampsten what he experienced on the end of his career.

Mercxx the best.. lol, yeah right. All you stooopid trolls, pack your bags and head over to baiterland.com. Dang, you are so braindead.


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## ttug

*power????*



tricycletalent said:


> Let's turn the tables: who is the greatest runner of all time? Carl Lewis? Paavo Nurmi? Haile Gebresselassie? Grethe Waitz? Michael Johnson?
> 
> Everybody talks about the greatest cyclist ever, but you should in fact talk about the greatest ROADIE ever, why shouldn't we mention the cyclocrossers? The track specialists? (where you can actually set world records) The mountainbikers? (where the level is so high 10 people can win every race.)
> 
> But OK, I'll grab the bait. Let's say Lance or Mercxx. Which one is the best? Well, that would depend on how you weigh their wins, Lance has one TdF up on Eddy-boy. Or you could try to estimate their POWER OUTPUT. And you would see that M was awesome, but Lance is SUPERHUMAN.
> 
> I don't even like Lance, but there is a word for denying him of the title "best roadie ever." That word is "gross negligence" There has never been so much money involved in the sport as now. Further, and perhaps more important; after introduction of synthetic erythropoietin, more guys were able to fight it out up front. Competition SUCKED when Eddy rode compared to now. Ask Andy Hampsten what he experienced on the end of his career.
> 
> Mercxx the best.. lol, yeah right. All you stooopid trolls, pack your bags and head over to baiterland.com. Dang, you are so braindead.


The best models give estimates that place Merckx and Lance on par while climbing. However, these are models and at best flawed.

As to Eddy and his competition, he was outclimbing the best of his generation and you might recall a name like Moser. Not a loser by any stretch. In fact, I would say that Eddy had alot more to worry about in the 70's as far as on par competition than almost any rider since. Of course, he was at the end of his days and it was very obvious in 73. 

Hampsten won a single Giro as far as GT's. I dont recall a Vuelta victory overall for him (anyone here more familiar with the Hampsters Palmares?) You did mentiuon Doping in a very thick and sort of sorrowful way. I guess you want to take a thread with content and stick it in the zoo called the Doping Forum. I guess its best since you are using saged warriors with a single GT win in comparison with one of the greatest winning records in the pro peleton. Of course....it could not have been without help right. As to best roadie ever, have you ever watched a race in the US or Europe? Are you slightly aware that roadie is kind of like calling a Stealth Pilot a Hot Rodder? Sort of like asking for an argument.

So Sir Trollalot, thanks for helping get this thread stuck in the Doping Forum.......Cyclops.


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## hrv

*Agree with Eddy*

In that he's basically saying you can't compare generations. Would that we could see "today's Lance" go back in time and race all year and see what happens, and have "yesterday's Eddy" come back now and race all year. My guess as to what would happen: Eddy would be lucky to last past the Giro, Lance would 'cannabilize' Eddy and his lot.


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## Jdawg

Andy's Palmares

Andy Hampsten
1985	1 stage, Giro d'Italia
1986	Tour of Switzerland
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
1987	Tour of Switzerland
1988	Giro d'Italia
KoM, Giro d'Italia
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
1990	1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
1991	KoM, Tour of Switzerland
1992	Tour of Romandy
1 stage, Tour de France


And if you want to talk about the greatest cyclist ever, I think there is only one name that can come close to topping Mr. Merckx................ Ned Overend


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## atpjunkie

*watts*

try the hour folks simple wattage. I doubt Lance has the Stones to even attempt it. 
weaker Competition, Gimondi, De Vlamnick, Ocana, Godefroot, Verbeeck, Sercu, Poulidor, yeah these guys sucked. Check their Palmares against Lance's.
Oh yeah and eddy killed it on the track as well, as did Coppi. Not even one trick ponies when it comes to disciplines either.

sorry as far as Road Cyclists go LA doesn't make Top 5. If ya wanna specialize to just the TdF he's still 3rd at best.


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## Fogdweller

Jdawg said:


> And if you want to talk about the greatest cyclist ever, I think there is only one name that can come close to topping Mr. Merckx................ Ned Overend


I'll add Longo.


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## atpjunkie

*Longo Yes*

don't forget Coppi. 

but seriously, simple solution.

whose Trophy case would you want?


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## Jdawg

atpjunkie said:


> don't forget Coppi.
> 
> but seriously, simple solution.
> 
> whose Trophy case would you want?


All around Cyclist? Ned Overend with out a doubt. Most dominate and most wins? Julie Furtado.


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## moving up

atpjunkie said:


> If ya wanna specialize to just the TdF he's still 3rd at best.



All interesting points for discussion right up to this last one, with which I have to respectfully disagree. 

If the only measurement is number times on the top of the podium in the TdF, Lance is the best of all time on that basis and that is objective result counting.

Now, using all kinds of other criteria there is lots of room for lots of discussion as seems to go on here on this subject. 

The one factor rarely discussed in these repeated threads (which far outnumber the Shimano vs. Campy battles of a year or two ago) is the battle with cancer and return. To participate in any serious level competition after that is impressive and to win time after time is a truly impressive personal accomplishment - love or hate the guy, give him his due for that one.

I don't think either Lance or Jan will take the TdF this year. Who, I don't know, but I predict we will see a new force emerge.


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## atpjunkie

*not really hard too see*

count number of stage wins and numbers of days in the yellow jersey.
In this category he's 3rd. Merckx took a year off the TdF to win some classics, the Giro, the Vuelta and set the hour record. Had he raced the Tour he would have won. If he hadn't been assaulted during attempt for #6 he very likely may have won that year as well. 
Lance didn't voluntarily sit out a year and he's still nowhere near Merckx and Hinault's stage and yellow count.
6 overalls is impressive, I'll give him that, but he's got a ways to go to catch up.
Yes, cancer big, without it he'd have never won any. But lets not forget eddy's Derny crash
(he won 3 or 4 TdFs after the wreck always riding in pain) Lemond's comeback from a near fatal gunshot wound is equally heroic. I'm no Lemond homer but had he not been shot he'd have broke the 5 barrier decades ago.

and to add insult to injury, yes I think Campy is way better than Shimano. Hey you know what I just did, got my Record Shifter Lever Fixed!!!! end discussion


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## Jdawg

atpjunkie said:


> Yes, cancer big, without it he'd have never won any. But lets not forget eddy's Derny crash


Your not the first to say that, and everytime someone does, it absolutely BLOWS me away.

Think about it. "If he didn;t have cancer, he wouldn't have won"


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## moving up

Not quibbling with you, just misunderstood the criteria you were using. Overall #1's on the podium in Paris is what I thought you were using and 6 is more than 5. Days in yellow is a different criteria as are stages wins, and overall time differences. I'm not stepping into this fray one way or the other but at least you are using objective criteria, which is meaningful analysis for which I thank you. 



atpjunkie said:


> count number of stage wins and numbers of days in the yellow jersey.
> If he hadn't been assaulted during attempt for #6 he very likely may have won that year as well.
> >>> Absolutely agree.
> 
> Lance didn't voluntarily sit out a year and he's still nowhere near Merckx and Hinault's stage and yellow count.
> >>> Not exactly correct. He was out in 1997 with cancer. He returned to racing in 1998, but I cannot remember if he raced the TdF in 1998. Did he start in 1996 when he fell sick or 1998? Having said that. If he had not had cancer, this discussion would not even be going on. He'd have been a minor footnote for a few stage wins at best. Hinault has more days in yellow but fewer #1 Paris podiums. I'd bet he would gladly trade a few days in yellow for one or two more days on the top step in Paris.
> 
> 6 overalls is impressive, I'll give him that, but he's got a ways to go to catch up.
> >>>The strategy works for him. The last day is the one that counts.
> 
> Yes, cancer big, without it he'd have never won any.
> >>> Agree. Before cancer he was the conventional racing model advocated here by many. Racing lots of races with mixed results, but nothing particularly historic or unique.
> 
> But lets not forget eddy's Derny crash
> (he won 3 or 4 TdFs after the wreck always riding in pain) Lemond's comeback from a near fatal gunshot wound is equally heroic.
> >>>Concur about Eddy. Lemond accident was serious, and a tragedy, but not on par with cancer with metastases to the brain.
> 
> I'm no Lemond homer but had he not been shot he'd have broke the 5 barrier decades ago.
> >>> Unknowable. Lots of possible what if's for many others also. Making actually happen is what is really counts. Lemond unfortunately seems determined to overwrite his history and be remembered for being bitter and vain more than his accomplishments.
> 
> >>> I am always mystified why Big Mig doesn't receive more discussion and credit in these ongoing bonfires.
> 
> and to add insult to injury, yes I think Campy is way better than Shimano. Hey you know what I just did, got my Record Shifter Lever Fixed!!!! end discussion


>>>No way I am I going anywhere near that argument, other than happy it is fixed.


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## Bianchigirl

hrv - thanks for starting my day with such a good laugh - 'Lance would cannibalise Eddy and his lot'? Please, what are you on?

atp, one other point you could make is that both Merckx and Hinault won the Tour de France whilst having already won the Giro - the Double being a feat that Armstrong never even looked like attempting (and which surely would have been a piece of cake considering how weak the competition at the Giro is supposed to be according to this and other forums...)


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## purplepaul

Good point, Bianchigirl.

Plus, you could add that Eddy and Bernard come before Lance alphabetically, so Lance can never be first. Though I'm not sure I'd put Hinault before Merckx.

But, you can't argue with the alphabet.




Bianchigirl said:


> hrv - thanks for starting my day with such a good laugh - 'Lance would cannibalise Eddy and his lot'? Please, what are you on?
> 
> atp, one other point you could make is that both Merckx and Hinault won the Tour de France whilst having already won the Giro - the Double being a feat that Armstrong never even looked like attempting (and which surely would have been a piece of cake considering how weak the competition at the Giro is supposed to be according to this and other forums...)


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## atpjunkie

*agreed B-Girl*

you could also add a handful of classics either won or finished in top 10, before the Giro.
everybody keeps slagging Eddy's competition but just compare the palmares of Eddy's challengers to Lance's. Tour winners, WC's, classics. I mean Jan has 1 GT some Olympics, but the Olympics (or WC for that matter) just aren't what they used to be in Eddy's time. I mean who races the WC anymore? Beloki?


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## ttug

*Jan Man has 2 GT's*



atpjunkie said:


> you could also add a handful of classics either won or finished in top 10, before the Giro.
> everybody keeps slagging Eddy's competition but just compare the palmares of Eddy's challengers to Lance's. Tour winners, WC's, classics. I mean Jan has 1 GT some Olympics, but the Olympics (or WC for that matter) just aren't what they used to be in Eddy's time. I mean who races the WC anymore? Beloki?



Jan has won a Vuelta and a TDF. Thats 2 GT overalls. I just wanted to let you know because now its the duty of everyone to sit back and let you know you are a rabid Lance Supporter or Jan hater. Just a guess mind you


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## ttug

*Merckx and Moser*

Given the idea is about that Merckx had "losers" for competition, I have posted a partial Palmares of Merckx and Moser. You will note that these "slackers" are still impressive even by todays standards

Merckx

1966 Milan - San Remo 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke 
1967 World Pro Road Race 
Milan - San Remo 
Flèche Wallone 
Ghent - Wevelgem 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke 
2 stages, Giro d'Italia 
Critérium des As 
1968 Giro d'Italia 
KoM, Giro d'Italia 
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia 
4 stages, Giro d'Italia 
Tour of Catalonia 
Tour of Romandy 
Paris - Roubaix 
Tre Valli Varesine 
1969 Tour de France 
KoM, Tour de France 
Points Competition, Tour de France 
5 stages, Tour de France 
Paris - Luxembourg 
Milan - San Remo 
Tour of Flanders 
Liège - Bastogne - Liège 
Paris - Nice 
4 stages, Giro d'Italia 
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy 
1970 Tour de France 
KoM, Tour de France 
8 stages, Tour de France 
Giro d'Italia 
3 stages, Giro d'Italia 
Paris - Nice 
Tour of Belgium 
Paris - Roubaix 
Flèche Wallone 
Ghent - Wevelgem 
Critérium des As 
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy 
1971 Tour de France 
Points Competition, Tour de France 
4 stages, Tour de France 
World Pro Road Race 
Milan - San Remo 
Liège - Bastogne - Liège 
Tour of Lombardy 
Frankfurt Grand Prix 
Omloop Het Volk 
Paris - Nice 
Dauphiné - Libéré 
GP du Midi Libre 
Tour of Belgium 
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy 
1972 Tour de France 
Points Competition, Tour de France 
6 stages, Tour de France 
Giro d'Italia 
4 stages, Giro d'Italia 
Milan - San Remo 
Liège - Bastogne - Liège 
Tour of Lombardy 
Flèche Wallone 
Giro dell'Emilia 
Giro del Piemonte 
GP de l'Escaut 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Roger Swerts 
Hour Record - 49.431km 
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy 
1973 Giro d'Italia 
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia 
6 stages, Giro d'Italia 
Vuelta a España 
Points Competition, Vuelta a España 
6 stages, Vuelta a España 
Paris - Roubaix 
Liège - Bastogne - Liège 
Grand Prix des Nations 
Amstel Gold Race 
Ghent - Wevelgem 
Omloop Het Volk 
Paris - Brussels 
GP Fourmies 
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy 
1974 Tour de France 
8 stages, Tour de France 
Giro d'Italia 
2 stages, Giro d'Italia 
World Pro Road Race 
Tour of Switzerland 
Points competition, Tour of Switzerland 
KoM, Tour of Switzerland 
3 stages, Tour of Switzerland 
Critérium des As 
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy 
1975 Milan - San Remo 
Tour of Flanders 
Liège - Bastogne - Liège 
Amstel Gold Race 
Catalan Week 
2 stages, Tour de France 
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland 
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy 
1976 Milan - San Remo 
Catalan Week 
1977 1 stage, Tour of Switzerland 

Moser

1973 1 stage, Giro d'Italia 
1974 GP d'Automne (Tours - Versailles) 
Giro dell'Emilia 
Giro del Piemonte 
GP Forli 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Roy Schuiten 
1975 Tour of Lombardy 
Coppa Placci 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Gibi Baronchelli 
GP du Midi Libre 
2 stages, Tour de France 
1976 Points Competition, Giro d'Italia 
3 stages, Giro d'Italia 
Tre Valli Varesine 
1977 World Pro Road Race 
Flèche Wallone 
Championship of Zurich 
Giro di Lazio 
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia 
Critérium des As 
1978 Paris - Roubaix 
Tour of Lombardy 
Giro di Lazio 
Tre Valli Varesine 
Tour of Catalonia 
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia 
4 stages, Giro d'Italia 
1979 Paris - Roubaix 
Ghent - Wevelgem 
Giro dell'Emilia 
Giro del Veneto 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Giuseppe Saronn 
3 stages, Giro d'Italia 
1980 Paris - Roubaix 
Tirreno - Adriatico 
1 stage, Giro d'Italia 
1981 Tirreno - Adriatico 
1 stage, Giro d'Italia 
1982 Points Competition, Giro d'Italia 
2 stages, Giro d'Italia 
1983 Milan - Turin 
1984 Giro d'Italia 
4 stages, Giro d'Italia 
Milan - San Remo 
Giro di Lazio 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Bernard Hinault 
2 stages, Vuelta a España 
Hour Record - 50.808km 
Hour Record - 51.151km 
1985 Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Hans-Henrik Oersted 
3 stages, Giro d'Italia 
1986 1 stage, Giro d'Italia


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## atpjunkie

*thx forgot the vuelta*

and am neither. still Jan's Palmares pale in comparison to Mosers, how about looking up Gimondi's, poulidorss or De Vlaemnicss?


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## Jdawg

purplepaul said:


> Good point, Bianchigirl.
> 
> Plus, you could add that Eddy and Bernard come before Lance alphabetically, so Lance can never be first. Though I'm not sure I'd put Hinault before Merckx.
> 
> But, you can't argue with the alphabet.


HAHAHAHAHA, that;s funny, but FYI, Names are alphabetized by last names.


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## ttug

*Yet another idea*



atpjunkie said:


> and am neither. still Jan's Palmares pale in comparison to Mosers, how about looking up Gimondi's, poulidorss or De Vlaemnicss?


I believe Gimondi would be most impressive if I do recall. Yeah, I actually like watching great riders because even the basic things they do (they look basic but are not) teach alot. I will go out on a limb and say that with 96 days in the yellow, Eddy wins. How about that metric huh?

I also want to check out Van Impe.


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## purplepaul

Doh!

...


Jdawg said:


> HAHAHAHAHA, that;s funny, but FYI, Names are alphabetized by last names.


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## ttug

*Other Palmares, Gimondi etc etc*



atpjunkie said:


> and am neither. still Jan's Palmares pale in comparison to Mosers, how about looking up Gimondi's, poulidorss or De Vlaemnicss?


Gimond

Yeah, it was Gimondis Palmares that are a bit more impressive. However, I believe some folks would call these folks losers or slackers. Yeah, sure........

Felice Gimondi
1965 Tour de France 
3 stages, Tour de France 
1966 Paris - Roubaix 
Tour of Lombardy 
Paris - Brussels 
Coppa Placci 
1 stage, Giro d'Italia 
1967 Giro d'Italia 
Grand Prix des Nations 
GP Forli 
Giro di Lazio 
2 stages, Tour de France 
1968 Vuelta a España 
1 stage, Vuelta a España 
Grand Prix des Nations 
GP Forli 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Jacques Anquetil 
1 stage, Giro d'Italia 
Critérium des As 
1969 Giro d'Italia 
Tour of Romandy 
GP Forli 
1 stage, Tour de France 
1970 1 stage, Tour of Switzerland 
1971 Giro del Piemonte 
GP Forli 
2 stages, Giro d'Italia 
1972 Tour of Catalonia 
1973 World Pro Road Race 
Tour of Lombardy 
Giro del Piemonte 
GP Forli 
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Leif Mortensen 
1 stage, Giro d'Italia 
1974 Milan - San Remo 
1975 1 stage, Tour de France 
1976 Giro d'Italia 
1 stage, Giro d'Italia 
Paris - Brussels 

Raymond Poulidor

1961 Milan - San Remo 
1962 1 stage, Tour de France 
1963 Flèche Wallone 
Grand Prix des Nations 
1964 Vuelta a España 
1 stage, Vuelta a España 
Criterium Nationale 
1 stage, Tour de France 
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy 
1965 1 stage, Tour de France 
2 stages, Vuelta a España 
1966 Dauphiné - Libéré 
Criterium Nationale 
1 stage, Tour de France 
1967 1 stage, Tour de France 
1 stage, Vuelta a España 
1968 Criterium Nationale 
1969 Dauphiné - Libéré 
1971 Catalan Week 
Criterium Nationale 
1972 Paris - Nice 
Criterium Nationale 
Critérium des As 
1973 Paris - Nice 
GP du Midi Libre 
1974 1 stage, Tour de France


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## Bianchigirl

Compare and contrast with Armstrong's greatest rivals:

Beloki - 3 pro wins
Um, I'm struggling to think of any other riders who compete against Armstrong who have any significant palmares at all...or haven't had their results nullified for doping (Rumsas, Millar)

Do we count Heras as he spent his best years riding _for_ Armstrong?


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## ttug

*slippery slope!*



Bianchigirl said:


> Compare and contrast with Armstrong's greatest rivals:
> 
> Beloki - 3 pro wins
> Um, I'm struggling to think of any other riders who compete against Armstrong who have any significant palmares at all...or haven't had their results nullified for doping (Rumsas, Millar)
> 
> Do we count Heras as he spent his best years riding _for_ Armstrong?


We would have to have a common definition on who to NOT include within the group of comparable riders. If we want a list, on the spur of the moment I would say the following:

Olano (coulda woulda shoulda see what I mean about slippery slope) 
Zulle (coulda woulda shoulda etc etc)
Ulrich (comparable easily and IMO, more talented)
Pantani ((theoretical only please dont remind me he died etc etc ) this is a hornets nest for me, I would still include him although evry part of what I have seen and have read tells me he should have been excluded long long ago)
Beloki (is not IMO. I say this because while he was best in 2003 and really on the edge and barely recovering the whole time. Witness the crash)
Heras (yes, Roberto could do it as long as the empasis was on pure climbing 2 Vueltas, not a joke)
Cunego (not yet. too young, 2 more years, yes, but thats speculation at best)
Simoni (if he trained for the TDF and dropped the Giro, yes a strong challenge, BUT he cant TT)
Mayo (young and strong enough to give ot a great effort and would be fiun to watch)
Landis (IMO, who knows?)


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## atpjunkie

*No you have to choose the rivals*

that they vanquished in the creation of their status. For Lance I'd say Ullrich, Beloki, Pantani.
the rest in that list were what single tour challengers, Zulle that was 99, the non Jan and Marco year.
Heras, Mayo and Simoni all dispatched with ease. Didn't put up enough fight to define his win.
Landis, Cunego, next gen riders. again never raced him so never helped define him. Floyd will this year but LA is clearly past his years of definition. This being his swan song and all.
Just choose the guys who 'pushed them'.


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## Blue Sugar

*Lance is NOT better than merckx*

LeMond was a better racer than lance, and so was Indurain (Tour/Giro double two years running).

If Merckx had wanted to, he could have done what lance did, but lance could NEVER have done what Merckx did (or he would have tried). That makes Merckx better, period.


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## atpjunkie

*simple to figure out*

whose trophy case would you like to own? whose collection of race worn victory jerseys would you like on your wall?


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