# Century + Ketogenic diet = Recipe for disaster?



## ketonono

Hey guys, first post - sorry if it's something that has been answered before, but here goes. 

I am on a slightly modified Keto diet. - I haven't really been sticking to this very rigidly, but these are the basics...

(Outline of Dave Palumbo's Diet For Cutting - Bodybuilding.com Forums) 

I generally eat 4-5 eggs and 4-5 egg whites in the morning, (which takes me about 2-3 hours to choke down), 8-10 oz of chicken for lunch, 8-10 oz of lean red meat or fish for dinner and a salad. 

I haven't been doing any heavy lifting at this point yet, so I haven't felt the need to stack protein shakes - nuts or anything else that's on the diet like oil etc. 

My goals have somewhat changed since I started this diet. My main goal has always been to look/feel good - but more recently I have set a goal for myself to complete a century ride within the next 6 months. I am currently able to ride about 40'ish miles but after that I am experiencing what I guess riders call a bad "bonk"? The last few miles I seriously doubt that I will be able to make it back to the car. 

I have lost about 25 lbs since I started this diet back in May, so it IS working as intended and I do make sure that I am only losing about 2 lbs per week so I am not doing anything unhealthy - but as my goals changed I fear that my diet is going to have to change along with it. 

My boss was previously a personal trainer and we got to talking the other day about nutrition while on the bike and how your body even when fully stocked on carbs is completely depleted of Glycogen within about 90 minutes of exercise, so I am curious how quickly my body burns through those reserves, if I have any at all? I do feel very tired about 45 minutes into any ride that I do - followed by a "second wind" that lasts for about an hour followed by complete exhaustion for the remainder that I have been pushing through. I do try to eat as much as possible, but nothing with carbs. 

My boss suggested that I eat carbs, but be extremely careful about counting them and make sure that I burn off anything that I eat and plan accordingly for calorie intake etc - before riding - to make sure that I stay in fat burning mode instead of sugar. 

What do you guys think is the best recipe for me to reach my weight goals as well as to make sure I can reach my goal of being able to ride a single, and eventually a double century?

Also - little background on me - I am by no means grossly overweight. I have a very large muscle build - I am 5'9" and currently hover between 179 and 185 depending on what stage of keto I am in. Every time someone runs a body fat test on me they always make comments about the amount of lean mass that I have... I do have a little weight to lose but not a lot so this keto thing is not permanent. 

Sorry for being so long winded, and thanks in advance for any input. 

Thanks


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## Social Climber

I am not going to criticize your diet choice, other than to say that, if you want to train for a century ride then you need adopt a diet that's appropriate for century ride training, and yours is not. You need a lot more carbs than you get from the single salad you eat each day. It's no wonder you are bonking. 

The materials I have read suggest that, on average, you should get around 60% of your daily calories from carbohydrates (mostly complex carbs), increasing that to 70% the week before the event. You need to build up glycogen stores that you body will use to function during the event. These stores will typically be depleted after about 2 hours of riding, so you need to replenish by eating more, or by drinking energy drinks, during the event. 

If you are serious about training for a century I suggest that you get the following book and read the material on diet and nutrition:

The Complete Book of Long-Distance Cycling: Build the Strength, Skills, and Confidence to Ride as Far as You Want: Edmund R. Burke, Ed Pavelka: 9781579541996: Amazon.com: Books


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## ketonono

I absolutely was expecting criticism, in fact I am welcoming it. 

As I said in my OP, my goals have changed in the past month or two. I have refocused my life on endurance training as opposed to weight lifting and slight cardio.

I thank you very much for the information above- that is essentially what I was looking for. 

Is there any option at all, at least while I am beginning training to go "light" on carbs for the time being? My boss suggested Cliff bars, but I have a hard time choking those down sitting at my desk - so doing that while on the bike might be a bit tough. 

Again, any input is much appreciated.


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## tlg

ketonono said:


> Is there any option at all, at least while I am beginning training to go "light" on carbs for the time being? My boss suggested Cliff bars, but I have a hard time choking those down sitting at my desk - so doing that while on the bike might be a bit tough.


You might find shot blocks more palatable
Clif Bar & Company | Food | Products Shot Bloks |

But how about good 'ole fashion fruit? Bananas make the perfect cycling food. Biodegradeable wrapper you can toss in the bushes. Raisins, dried fruits, figs in a zip lock work well too. 

I think you want to get away from "fat burning" mode mentality while you're riding. Especially on a century.


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## ketonono

Bananas are on the list - I am a big fan. Are whole better than dried for storage purposes?

I will look into the shot blocks, thanks for the info. 

Raisins are easy to carry, other dried fruit has also been on my mind.


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## tlg

ketonono said:


> Bananas are on the list - I am a big fan. Are whole better than dried for storage purposes?


Whole work fine and are easy to chew and digest. 
Real dried bananas are hard to come by. The crunchy ones you usually see are banana chips... which are actually deep fried, not dried. I'd stay away from those.


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## ketonono

I see - did not know that either. I was actually thinking about buying a dehydrator and making my own stuff. That's why I was asking.


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## love4himies

Along with bananas, I find a baked potato with a touch of salt works wonders for replacing the energy in my legs after a long ride or to get them ready for the next day's ride.


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## love4himies

ketonono said:


> I see - did not know that either. I was actually thinking about buying a dehydrator and making my own stuff. That's why I was asking.


But you just kerplunk a banana in your jersey back pocket and off you go. No need to make things more complicated than they have to be.


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## ketonono

love4himies said:


> I find a baked potato with a touch of salt works wonders for replacing the energy in my legs after a long ride or to get them ready for the next day's ride.


I can't even tell you how wonderful this sounds right now - salivating at just the thought lol. 

Ok - so it sounds like with my shifting goals I will also have to shift my diet as well. So when trying to lose weight, I will basically still need to stick to the same idea - losing no more than 2'ish pounds per week right? I am trying to not burn up muscle but lose the weight so that I'm seeing a noticeable difference every week. 

Also - if you had 200'ish dollars to spend on a workout tool for speed/cadence/hr/power what would you invest in. I have an iphone and have been using Mapmyride for a few years and feel like I might be outgrowing it.


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## sdeeer

You might want to check out what Dr. Attia has to offer on this topic.

The interplay of exercise and ketosis – Part I « The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

As a carbohydrate metabolism and performance researcher myself, I can tell you that a ketogenic diet is not 'optimal' for the best possible performance in a century.

But depending on your ultimate goals, a well done ketogenic diet is a method which will allow you to still perform 'well' on little to no food intake for the duration of the event. (assuming you are doing it correctly and have gone through the adaptation period)


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## NJBiker72

ketonono said:


> I absolutely was expecting criticism, in fact I am welcoming it.
> 
> As I said in my OP, my goals have changed in the past month or two. I have refocused my life on endurance training as opposed to weight lifting and slight cardio.
> 
> I thank you very much for the information above- that is essentially what I was looking for.
> 
> Is there any option at all, at least while I am beginning training to go "light" on carbs for the time being? My boss suggested Cliff bars, but I have a hard time choking those down sitting at my desk - so doing that while on the bike might be a bit tough.
> 
> Again, any input is much appreciated.


I don't do anything strict anymore but generally stay relatively low carb. Except when I ride. Then I will do carbs, even gels and gel drops. 

Tried upping carbs before a ride in the past but it really does not sit well with me anymore.


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## dcb

Everybody is a little different in how they react to diet and exercise, but I'll tell you about my experience with something similar from a few years ago. 

At the time I was mountain biking only but had just started a base training phase to race La Ruta. I knew I needed to drop some body fat but I also wanted to ride a lot of miles. So my diet for most of the day looked similar to yours although I included a little more healthy fat. However, my peri and post ride nutrition included carbs. About 30 minutes into each long ride I'd start to consume bananas, gels, whatever I happened to have that day and then I'd have a carb+protein recovery drink after I was done. Then, it was back to high protein and fat, low carbs. I did 3 longer rides each week so there were 4 days when I wasn't having many carbs at all.

I actually felt pretty good during the rides and I got up to 60-70 mile mtb rides. I think in terms of time in the saddle and effort that's probably pretty comparable to a century on a road bike. 

As an aside, La Ruta did not work out as I got a new job a couple of months before the race and couldn't take the time off.


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## calrider61

ketonono said:


> What do you guys think is the best recipe for me to reach my weight goals as well as to make sure I can reach my goal of being able to ride a single, and eventually a double century?
> 
> Thanks


My experience: 
On a Ketogenic diet lost 200lbs in 18 months. Have stabilized weight +-5 lbs past 8 months. Increased fat (bacon, ground pork,egg yoke,etc) when calorie needs increased. No problem with tested cholesterol levels.
Did four centuries in June avg 10,000 ft of climbing each. Feeding on bananas, Cliff blocks, Hammer Gel, Hammer Perpetuem, water, water, water during ride. Recovery is the art of riding, being in my sixties.


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## ketonono

Thanks for all the advice everyone - I really appreciate it. 

So it looks possible, but not optimal. I will keep pushing to see what I can do. It sounds like I will just have to listen to what my body is telling me. If I keep hitting a brick wall at 3 hours/60 miles, obviously the diet is going to have to go. 

Also, Calrider61 congrats on the weight loss, that is amazing!


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## DaveW88

You can go a really long time at 60-70% of max effort without adding carbs. You will need to be extremely careful about hydrating since you will be prone to dehydration without stored glycogen. That may be why you bonked.


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## sadhappy

Interesting discussion!

I've lost a lot of weight on the bike myself - about 75 lbs in the last 18 months. I've found that refined suagr and hi glycemic index food in general do not agree with me. Once I start eating it, my appetite goes therough the roof and I put on weight like crazy no matter how many miles I ride. So I've come to terms with living on a limited ingredient diet and I'm ok with it.

Where it's been a challenge is fueling on long rides and big efforts. On a century where I'm putting out max effort the trick is to not bonk while not awakening the sugar monster either. 

Also, I'm still about 25lbs above my goal weight so I'm still working on losing bodyfat.

anyway, to the point

Once a week I go on a long slow distance ride where I do not come out of zone 2. so we're talking 80 to 90 miles at 130bpm. On one of those rides I'll start on an empty stomach and then start eating 100-150 calories every 45 minutes starting at 90 minutes into the ride. Organic oatmeal bars with dates and rasins. I'll end up eating about 500-600 calories to sustain me on a 90 mile ride and I don't bonk, and I'll burn a couple thousand calories. so as long as I work my recovery well, I consolidate a nice bit of bodyfat loss off those weekly rides.

On the max effort long rides, I do use the GU's and I trust my elevated metabolism to burn everything off after the ride. I do stay away from the carbs at the post ride meals. When I used the gu's regularly I suffered from increased appetite, so I save them for the big efforts.

Anyway, That's what I have to share. hope there was something useful in it.

-s


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## claudio_vernight

Resurrecting this thread from a few years ago to get current views on a Ketogenic diet. 
I met this guy on a century a few years ago and our styles and pace are simpatico so we’ve been connecting for 2 or 3 centuries a year for the last 3 years. We did one yesterday. We don’t lollygag; we usually finish a 100 miles between 6 and 6.5 hours elapsed time with 1 or 2 comfort stops. 
What freaks me out in that _he never eats_ anything during the ride. I mean nothing! No bananas, no energy bars, no filet mignon… nothing! And all he drinks is water. In the meantime I’m pounding down Gatorade and bananas and Clif bars and ham sandwiches every 20 minutes. 
When you’re sitting there for 6 hours you talk about things and we’ve discussed his diet extensively. He says that he went to a very strict Ketogenic diet about five years ago, partially for riding and partially for other health reasons. He says his diet consist primarily of meat and eggs. No carbs, no starch, no sugar. No beer (he says he _really _regrets that).
He’s in his 50s. I’ve never seen him do anything that resembles bonking and he says because of his diet his muscles don’t produce lactic acid. 
My question is, is this guy a freak of nature or do others have similar experience with such a diet? I doubt I’ll be jumping onto Keto bus, I do love a good baguette, but I’d like to know others’ experience.


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## Migen21

If you think about ultra-endurance athletes, they are (generally) operating on very few carbs relative to the effort they are expending over the day. Most of them I think don't have much tolerance for putting sugary foods in their stomachs, especially when training or during an event.

I think you can train your body to rely on fat for energy. I doubt you would win many (fast paced) races that way, but you could probably do well on a long, medium paced ride, as your friend does, if you give yourself lots of time training specifically that way.

I can't imagine that being a fun thing. I've tried riding on very few or no carbs, and it's mentally and physically challenging. Feeling tired and weak does not put one in the frame of mind to ride your bike 100 miles.

Excuse my while I go have a glass of chocolate milk.


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## sdeeer

claudio_vernight said:


> I’ve never seen him do anything that resembles bonking and he says because of his diet his muscles don’t produce lactic acid.
> My question is, is this guy a freak of nature or do others have similar experience with such a diet? I doubt I’ll be jumping onto Keto bus, I do love a good baguette, but I’d like to know others’ experience.


He still produces lactic acid, but that is not even the issue and distracts from the main fueling considerations. 

A practitioner of low carb keto can easily over time adapt to completing a century ride with out exegenous fuel (food) in 6 hours no problem. 

As for you (the new OP digging this up), would you enjoy abstaining from carbs for the long haul. A well designed low carb diet has many merits for a multitude of outcomes. It is usually not better per se than an equal energy balance "quality" non-low carb diet. Now we can pick straws and cite literature case by case (metric by metric) and discuss which diet is _better_ for each.

But it all comes down to which diet do you enjoy that allows you to participate in the activities that you enjoy, without causing too much health _risk_.

Bottom line(s): 
1. not a freak by any means.
2. not a diet for all 
3. not a part time diet
4. not better (for most) than the traditional diet
5. may help some with weight control (but so can any diet that manages energy intake).


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## kg1

*Interesting Topic*

I find this topic really interesting. I've also been trying to eat a low carb diet for a while now. A couple of weeks ago I finished a 200k in just over 8 hours, the first 100 miles in 6.5 hours with two stops (then the wind kicked up), and other than water, I had two Lara bars. This was a very fast ride for me (I'm generally old and slow). In the past, when I was eating carbs, I would be drinking energy drink for the entire ride, and eating a bar every 20 miles or so, and then I could really feel my energy levels ebb and flow with the intake.

During this ride, I never really felt my strength wane. I had the first bar around mile 45, just because I thought I probably should (200k is a long ride for me), and the second around mile 80 because in the past, I could get pretty cranky about mile 90, but I'm not sure I needed either.

Finally, I used to finish a long, hard ride like this and be ravenous. After this ride, a salad with some chicken on top, and I was fine. Hunger is a different thing for me when I haven't been eating lot of carbs.

Would be happy to hear other people's experiences.

Thanks.

kg1


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## kg1

*Poor preformece coming off a low-carb diet*



kg1 said:


> I find this topic really interesting. I've also been trying to eat a low carb diet for a while now. A couple of weeks ago I finished a 200k in just over 8 hours, the first 100 miles in 6.5 hours with two stops (then the wind kicked up), and other than water, I had two Lara bars. This was a very fast ride for me (I'm generally old and slow). In the past, when I was eating carbs, I would be drinking energy drink for the entire ride, and eating a bar every 20 miles or so, and then I could really feel my energy levels ebb and flow with the intake.
> 
> During this ride, I never really felt my strength wane. I had the first bar around mile 45, just because I thought I probably should (200k is a long ride for me), and the second around mile 80 because in the past, I could get pretty cranky about mile 90, but I'm not sure I needed either.
> 
> Finally, I used to finish a long, hard ride like this and be ravenous. After this ride, a salad with some chicken on top, and I was fine. Hunger is a different thing for me when I haven't been eating lot of carbs.
> 
> Would be happy to hear other people's experiences.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> kg1


If quoting yourself is bad form, apologies. Another data point. For the last three or so weeks I've been eating pretty poorly and lots of carbs. This weekend, I went out for another 200k. While the last 200k I did was a fast (for me) 8.5 hours, this one was over 9.5 hours, and I really suffered. It was hotter, and I think that played a role, as did the fact that I'm about 5 lbs heavier than I was for the last ride. Still, while it may be superstition, I think my poor diet over the last several weeks played a big role in how I felt and how I performed.

Has anyone else tried something like this -- compared performance on a low carb diet to performance on a high carb diet? Would age or an individual's physiology come into play? Is the answer different if you're 55 than if you're 25?

I've been saying this for a while now, but to me modern medicine's greatest failing is that our medical professionals really haven't figured out what we should be putting on our plates, or if they have, they've done a poor job of making of telling us. Not much money in that, I suppose, compared to selling statins and placing stents.

Thanks.

kg1


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## redlude97

kg1 said:


> If quoting yourself is bad form, apologies. Another data point. For the last three or so weeks I've been eating pretty poorly and lots of carbs. This weekend, I went out for another 200k. While the last 200k I did was a fast (for me) 8.5 hours, this one was over 9.5 hours, and I really suffered. It was hotter, and I think that played a role, as did the fact that I'm about 5 lbs heavier than I was for the last ride. Still, while it may be superstition, I think my poor diet over the last several weeks played a big role in how I felt and how I performed.
> 
> Has anyone else tried something like this -- compared performance on a low carb diet to performance on a high carb diet? Would age or an individual's physiology come into play? Is the answer different if you're 55 than if you're 25?
> 
> I've been saying this for a while now, but to me modern medicine's greatest failing is that our medical professionals really haven't figured out what we should be putting on our plates, or if they have, they've done a poor job of making of telling us. Not much money in that, I suppose, compared to selling statins and placing stents.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> kg1


Are you planning on consuming carbs during the ride while on the low carb diet? At what % of FTP average are you planning on doing both rides? Keto based diets work for those that can stay in a mostly aerobic state, which is why it works well for long distance runners, but if you go anaerobic too much the penalty is much more sever for a person on a ketogenic diet.


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## kg1

Thanks for this input. It makes a lot of sense, but isn't something that I had considered.

kg1


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## deviousalex

redlude97 said:


> Are you planning on consuming carbs during the ride while on the low carb diet? At what % of FTP average are you planning on doing both rides? Keto based diets work for those that can stay in a mostly aerobic state, which is why it works well for long distance runners, but if you go anaerobic too much the penalty is much more sever for a person on a ketogenic diet.


Exactly. This is why you can do it on a long century ride but it would be brutal in a race where you are expected to have quite a few 5-10 minute efforts at >100%FTP. If you're used to riding long rides where you spend very little at FTP (and almost no time above, i.e. not even 15 minutes in 6 hours above) you shouldn't have a problem as your body is well adapted to using fat as an energy source. If you don't ride that much it's a recipe for disaster. But under no circumstances is it optimal in any sense of the word.

Why you should think twice before trying a low-carb high-fat diet | CyclingTips


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## Sojodave

I've been on a ketogenic diet and I've lost 50 lbs. Here is a great interview with Steve Phinney on low carb cycling.

Steve Phinney ? Low-Carb preserves Glycogen better than High Carb | Me and My Diabetes


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## deviousalex

Sojodave said:


> I've been on a ketogenic diet and I've lost 50 lbs. Here is a great interview with Steve Phinney on low carb cycling.
> 
> Steve Phinney ? Low-Carb preserves Glycogen better than High Carb | Me and My Diabetes


Without tracking your total input and output it's not possible to conclude that the fact that you've been on a ketogenic diet is the key to weight loss. There are many compounding factors here, i.e. pickier eating leads to less total intake.

As for the link you posted being able to ride 60 miles by itself proves nothing. I've done 60 mile climbing rides without eating anything, it surely wasn't optimal. He states "no drop in power" which is okay as long as you're riding endurance/tempo. Once you throw in some Vo2 your body burns glycogen. There's no way around that.


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## Sojodave

deviousalex said:


> Without tracking your total input and output it's not possible to conclude that the fact that you've been on a ketogenic diet is the key to weight loss. There are many compounding factors here, i.e. pickier eating leads to less total intake.
> 
> As for the link you posted being able to ride 60 miles by itself proves nothing. I've done 60 mile climbing rides without eating anything, it surely wasn't optimal. He states "no drop in power" which is okay as long as you're riding endurance/tempo. Once you throw in some Vo2 your body burns glycogen. There's no way around that.


Here is another rider who rode 100 miles on low carb eating very little.
100 mile bike ride on low-carb | Mark's Daily Apple Health and Fitness Forum

I lost 50 lbs in 5 months eating low carb, high fat. I had my A1c go from 8.9 down to 4.7. I had my cholesterol ratio improve from 3.89 down to 1.13. I had my blood pressure improve from 160 over 80 to 118 over 70. All while not exercising and keeping my gross carbs under 30 a day. I tracked everything I ate with Myfitnesspal until I got my diet dialed into getting my carbs lowered. I believe in the theory of burning fat instead of carbs for endurance, but it does take a lot of work to get into Ketosis. My excuse is that I'm just not that fast...


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## deviousalex

Sojodave said:


> My excuse is that I'm just not that fast...


You seem to completely missing my point. Of course it's possible to ride any number of miles on a low carb diet. I'm saying it's not optimal. When you are pushing FTP and above you are burning a higher % of carbs than fat. You can never, ever, train this to be all fat. If you sit there and do an endurance level ride (i.e. 100 miles at fairly consistent power) you can feel it and feel ok.


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## Sojodave

You are absolutely right about not being optimal unless you are in ketosis. When your body is in ketosis, your body burns fat for energy. I admit, this scared me to death when I first got into this. I did a ton of research on it and a lot of endurance athletes are on ketogenic diets. As Dr. Phinney explains, the average carb burning athlete will only have 1500 to 2000 calories to burn before they boink. An athlete in ketosis could have as much as 40,000 calories to burn before they hit their limit. 



> My gas tank got a lot bigger when I gave up carbs. Because we can only store maybe 1500 calories as carbs. If I burn 600 – 700 calories per hour, and I depend only on glycogen, that’s about two hours of fuel. But if I have 30,000 to 40,000 calories of fuel in my fat, I can ride for days.


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## deviousalex

Sojodave said:


> An athlete in ketosis could have as much as 40,000 calories to burn before they hit their limit.


:mad2:

This is complete and utter BS. There's no such thing as being able to burn 100% fat.

The endurance athletes that are on ketogenic diets are the ones that post on forums and aren't real elite athletes. I asked some world tour pros about diet fads in the pro pelotons and he says no, everyone eats a ton of carbs. In fact the only search coming up for pro cyclists on paleo diets is David Zabriske and the article is incorrect. They state he went on a paleo diet for that year when it was well published he went on a vegan/pescetarian diet (quite the opposite end of the diet spectrum). There is a video of him talking about his diet he's eating a granola energy bar.


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## Sojodave

I'm a type 2 diabetic which means my pancreas is broke. I'm able to control my blood sugar through diet and exercise. That's the reason I went on a ketogenic diet. If I carbed up before a long ride, It would spike my blood sugar and it may not go down. When you are in ketosis, it's pretty easy to not be in that state. It takes a couple of days of feeling pretty bad before you go back into ketosis. 

I take Quest bars with me on longer rides just in case I get hungry. The group I'm with eat every hour, I usually eat every two to three hours depending upon how I'm feeling. My point isn't which way of eating is the most optimal, my point is that you can still do endurance rides being in ketosis.


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## duriel

OK, so how many RAAM riders are in ketosis? I would venture to say 'zero'. The most elite endurance riders in the world. 
That being said, it sounds like you are having issues and it is good that you found a solution for you.


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## crit_boy

Sojodave said:


> I'm a type 2 diabetic which means my pancreas is broke. I'm able to control my blood sugar through diet and exercise. That's the reason I went on a ketogenic diet. If I carbed up before a long ride, It would spike my blood sugar and it may not go down. When you are in ketosis, it's pretty easy to not be in that state. It takes a couple of days of feeling pretty bad before you go back into ketosis.
> 
> I take Quest bars with me on longer rides just in case I get hungry. The group I'm with eat every hour, I usually eat every two to three hours depending upon how I'm feeling. My point isn't which way of eating is the most optimal, my point is that you can still do endurance rides being in ketosis.


I hope your dr is in on your training plan. DKA is no joke. 

I am not sure diets imposed by abnormal metabolic states apply to everyone else. 

PS the fact that you need to eat bars that have protein and carbs means you are not running on 100% fat. With that I also question whether you are actually in ketosis or whether you follow a low carb diet and think you are in ketosis.


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