# Q-Pro geometry??



## Silver Potato (Mar 18, 2009)

Does anyone know where I can go to find the Q-Pro geometry? It is an early '00's & I know my Q-Pro was one of the 1st ones built in WI (under Trek) because it's arrival was delayed due to paint problems at the new facility. It has served me well for over 8yrs but a recent 350 mile/2 day ride has clearly shown me I need a shorter top tube and more upright position. I have been riding a few demo bikes but none feel as stable so I want to know what geometry to be looking for (head tube angles, etc...).


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## brentley (Jul 20, 2008)

you can start here

http://www.kleinjapan.com/tech_guide/

but beware the site is in japanese.

the guides are in english so pick your year.


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## AFS (Sep 15, 2004)

Geometry via internet archive:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001206233200/www.kleinbikes.com/tech_guide/frame_geometries.html

Edit: Sorry, the link is for the 2001 frame. I don't know if the geometry stayed the same from 2000 to 2001.


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## Silver Potato (Mar 18, 2009)

EXCELLENT! Thanks! I am now fairly certain my Q Pro is a 2002 and got the correct dimensions. Now its time to start looking....Looking through those sites made me miss Klein. I have no idea what to do next so I'm going to ride as many bikes as I can. I rode a Lynskey 31 miles the other day and it was very comfortable but a little twitchy (had 44 handlebars so that may have been the problem....for me at least). I also rode a Ibis Silk Road SL but only a few miles and it had a very nice ride and a little more stable. These dimensions will help me filter through some bikes and focus on what would work better for me. Nothing so far has that immediate satisfaction reaction like my Q Pro had 8+ years ago...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Silver Potato said:


> EXCELLENT! Thanks! I am now fairly certain my Q Pro is a 2002 and got the correct dimensions. Now its time to start looking....Looking through those sites made me miss Klein. I have no idea what to do next so I'm going to ride as many bikes as I can. I rode a Lynskey 31 miles the other day and it was very comfortable but a little twitchy (had 44 handlebars so that may have been the problem....for me at least). I also rode a Ibis Silk Road SL but only a few miles and it had a very nice ride and a little more stable. These dimensions will help me filter through some bikes and focus on what would work better for me. Nothing so far has that immediate satisfaction reaction like my Q Pro had 8+ years ago...


Duplicating the geo is a sure way to get close to the handling of the Q Pro, but it helps to understand how those numbers translate in real world riding.

Taking a quick look at the geo, there are a couple of key points that (IMO) are contributing to that stable feel you're experiencing. Most of the geo is close to what's mainstream now, including chainstay length, wheelbase, ST/HT angles, BB height.... but what's different is the fork rake (35/ 41, size dependent) and the resultant trail. With a trail of over 60 a bike is going to have very predictable handling, and that is clearly your preference, so I suggest you focus on those numbers when shopping around.

Also, the effective TT lengths are fairly long (they don't provide HT length) and this may contribute to your feeling like you need/ want less reach, so that (and HT length) are other numbers to keep in mind.


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## Silver Potato (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks...I have been doing some comparisons to bikes I like and it looks like a Cervelo RS would be good for me. I really wanted an US built bike, esp. Lynskey/Litespeed b/c they are good ole southern boys from TN, but unless I go custome and shell out tons of cash that might not be best for me. I love the Lynskey 3-series but when I rode it the front wanted to wander and I had to pay attention whereas my Klein does exactally as told. Litespeed does not list trail/rake on their website but my LBS is going to let me ride an Icon which they can get me a good deal on. I have never had carbon or titanium so I'm trying to ride as many bikes as possible but now realize geometry is most important (at least for me). All the guys on the team my wife rides for ride Cannondale "6's" but I noticed they all have tons of headset spacers & ride with their seats far forward so I almost do not want to hassle with trying one even though they all love them. Unfortunately one of our guys was hit by a car on a long ride recently (he is OK) and I was amazed how well his titanium frame held up (Litespeed Icon). The bike was trashed but the frame was unscathed. If that had been carbon.....yikes......

Is "rake" same as "offset"?


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

Silver Potato said:


> I really wanted an US built bike, esp. Lynskey/Litespeed b/c they are good ole southern boys from TN, but unless I go custome and shell out tons of cash that might not be best for me.


What about a Trek Madone 5.2? Built by hand in Waterloo, Wisconsin. You can even visit the factory for a tour. 



Silver Potato said:


> The bike was trashed but the frame was unscathed. If that had been carbon.....yikes......


If that had been carbon.....there's no telling what would have happened to it. It might have shattered into a million pieces. It might have held up just fine. 

Carbon is a composite, and because the materials and construction methods vary so widely, its properties cannot be generalized. Suggesting a carbon frame would be ruined in that car accident is like saying a wooden bowling pin would shatter at impact because you've once seen balsa wood break catastrophically. It all depends on the particulars of the material at hand.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Silver Potato said:


> Thanks...I have been doing some comparisons to bikes I like and it looks like a Cervelo RS would be good for me. I really wanted an US built bike, esp. Lynskey/Litespeed b/c they are good ole southern boys from TN, but unless I go custome and shell out tons of cash that might not be best for me. I love the Lynskey 3-series but when I rode it the front wanted to wander and I had to pay attention whereas my Klein does exactally as told. Litespeed does not list trail/rake on their website but my LBS is going to let me ride an Icon which they can get me a good deal on. *I have never had carbon or titanium so I'm trying to ride as many bikes as possible but now realize geometry is most important (at least for me). *All the guys on the team my wife rides for ride Cannondale "6's" but I noticed they all have tons of headset spacers & ride with their seats far forward so I almost do not want to hassle with trying one even though they all love them. Unfortunately one of our guys was hit by a car on a long ride recently (he is OK) and I was amazed how well his titanium frame held up (Litespeed Icon). The bike was trashed but the frame was unscathed. If that had been carbon.....yikes......
> 
> *Is "rake" same as "offset"*?


Clearly, you've got a plan and I think it's a good one. Riding lots of bikes is time consuming, but I can relate because it took me the better part of two years to actually decide. I like your remark about geo being most important to you. It is to everyone, some just don't realize it.  

FWIW, I've ridden steel for about 25 years, but I like CF. I think the state of the art is now at the point that it's a finely tunable material. To each his own, but I'm not sure I'd buy a bike based on it being crashworthy.  

Re: your fork rake/ offset question. I'll refer you to this link, because it describes the source of confusion far better than I could. Scroll down to Fork offset.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry


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## Silver Potato (Mar 18, 2009)

I just went to a LBS and one of the employees just built his Project One Trek Madone 6.9 Red.....OMG!!! That was the sickest bike I have seen yet! It was absolutely beautiful and crazy light....maybe the lightest bike I have ever picked up. I do not have the funds for such a machine but WOW is that a nice bike. They are going to let me ride one of the 5-series when I have some time. Sitting on a 54 (Performance Fit) felt good. Only the ride will tell......Thanks for putting that buzz in my ear WhiskeyNovember....

I had a steel Lemond Zurich (Reynolds 853) and that was a classy bike that was very comfortable but it was no where as sturdy on fast descents as my Klein and my toxic sweat destroyed it within a few years. I really want a metal bike, be it scandium, titanium, steel, or aluminium, because there is such a soul to such a handmade bike but honestly most of these carbon bikes I have had a chance to ride are really sweet. What concerns me is that there is an old Eddy Merckk (sp?...sorry Eddy!) frame in my LBS and it still looks fantastic but a Madone from not too far back already looks sooooo dated. So do I buy the lastest technology only to risk wanting something else in the near future or do I buy a timeless design from material that has always been around. I'm thinking way too much about this.....


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Silver Potato said:


> I just went to a LBS and one of the employees just built his Project One Trek Madone 6.9 Red.....OMG!!! That was the sickest bike I have seen yet! It was absolutely beautiful and crazy light....maybe the lightest bike I have ever picked up. I do not have the funds for such a machine but WOW is that a nice bike. They are going to let me ride one of the 5-series when I have some time. Sitting on a 54 (Performance Fit) felt good. Only the ride will tell......Thanks for putting that buzz in my ear WhiskeyNovember....
> 
> I had a steel Lemond Zurich (Reynolds 853) and that was a classy bike that was very comfortable but it was no where as sturdy on fast descents as my Klein and my toxic sweat destroyed it within a few years. I really want a metal bike, be it scandium, titanium, steel, or aluminium, because there is such a soul to such a handmade bike but honestly most of these carbon bikes I have had a chance to ride are really sweet. What concerns me is that there is an old Eddy Merckk (sp?...sorry Eddy!) frame in my LBS and it still looks fantastic but a Madone from not too far back already looks sooooo dated. So do I buy the lastest technology only to risk wanting something else in the near future or do I buy a timeless design from material that has always been around. I'm thinking way too much about this.....


Every think about custom steel? Going that route you can have steel _and_ geo that you provide the builder, so in essence you can (with modern day materials) rebuild your Klein. That's what I did when I had my Curtlo built. There's a long lead time, though - 8 months.
www.curtlo.com
View attachment 165970


View attachment 165968


View attachment 165969


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## Silver Potato (Mar 18, 2009)

THAT is a beautiful frame! When I was building up a SS-29er for my wife (so I could have mine back) I looked into Curtlo (I got a great deal on a Niner Sir-9 instead...not the same but still very nice). As far as custom goes I think Curtlo is a fantastic value and I love the way the frames look. I have never had a chance to ride one but I can only imagine....

I found a great deal on a Lynskey with Campy Chorus that is too good to pass up. The frame fits me very well but the front end feels twitchy. It has 44 size handlebars which are too big for me so that may be part of it. It may be that I have been riding the same bike for close to 10yrs? It may be that it is slightly compact (I'm used to traditional geometry)? I'm going to ride it again because for what they are asking for the bike it would be hard to find a good frame for the same price. I really like the Campy too...I've always had Shimano. 

Due to the rain today I'm going to check out that Curtlo site again....that is a sweet frame...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Silver Potato said:


> THAT is a beautiful frame! When I was building up a SS-29er for my wife (so I could have mine back) I looked into Curtlo (I got a great deal on a Niner Sir-9 instead...not the same but still very nice). As far as custom goes I think Curtlo is a fantastic value and I love the way the frames look. I have never had a chance to ride one but I can only imagine....
> 
> I found a great deal on a Lynskey with Campy Chorus that is too good to pass up. The frame fits me very well but the front end feels twitchy. It has 44 size handlebars which are too big for me so that may be part of it. It may be that I have been riding the same bike for close to 10yrs? It may be that it is slightly compact (I'm used to traditional geometry)? I'm going to ride it again because for what they are asking for the bike it would be hard to find a good frame for the same price. I really like the Campy too...I've always had Shimano.
> 
> Due to the rain today I'm going to check out that Curtlo site again....that is a sweet frame...


I haven't built the Curtlo up yet, so I can only imagine how it rides as well!!  

Be careful of the Lynskey. Not because it's a bad bike (obviously, it's not) but that twitchy feeling may stay with you a lot longer than the memory of a good deal. The 44 cm bars (IMO) don't contribute to that feel, and compact vs traditional don't play a part either, but the geo does. I'd bet that if you posted the numbers we'd know why you're experiencing the quick steering (quick being relative to what a rider prefers).

I'm not trying to burst your bubble here, but sometimes it's better to trust your gut and wait for that bike that _just feels right_.


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## AFS (Sep 15, 2004)

Does your LBS have any of the new Merckx EMX-3 bikes you can test ride? They have head tube angles in the 72 degree range and slacker seat tubes. The head tube lengths are longer than a lot of other bikes. The EMX-3 geometry chart does not show rake or trail. I’d ask gitabike.com (US distributor) for the rakes or any other info, they’ve been responsive to most of my questions.


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## Silver Potato (Mar 18, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> I haven't built the Curtlo up yet, so I can only imagine how it rides as well!!
> 
> Be careful of the Lynskey. Not because it's a bad bike (obviously, it's not) but that twitchy feeling may stay with you a lot longer than the memory of a good deal. The 44 cm bars (IMO) don't contribute to that feel, and compact vs traditional don't play a part either, but the geo does. I'd bet that if you posted the numbers we'd know why you're experiencing the quick steering (quick being relative to what a rider prefers).
> 
> I'm not trying to burst your bubble here, but sometimes it's better to trust your gut and wait for that bike that _just feels right_.


Is the weight of that Curtlo reasonable? That is really sharp!

The Lynskey is a Medium "3-Series" from last either '08 or '09 but is comparable to this years 2-series as far as I can tell. I'm going to email Lynskey to see if there were any geometry changes but this is what is on their site
*HOUSEBLEND R230 M*
HEAD TUBE ANGLE 72.5 
SEAT TUBE ANGLE 73.5 
TOP TUBE LENGTH : EFFECTIVE 54.1 
TOP TUBE LENGTH : ACTUAL 50.7 
TOP TUBE SLOPE 9.4 
HEAD TUBE LENGTH 14.5 
BB HEIGHT 26.7
CHAIN STAY LENGTH 40.8 
WHEEL BASE 97.7 
SEAT TUBE LENGTH 50 
STAND OVER HEIGHT 76.6 
FRONT CENTER 57.9 
FORK RAKE 44mm 
FRAME WEIGHT 2.55 lbs 
* All dimensions are in centimeters or degrees unless otherwise noted.


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## Silver Potato (Mar 18, 2009)

AFS said:


> Does your LBS have any of the new Merckx EMX-3 bikes you can test ride? They have head tube angles in the 72 degree range and slacker seat tubes. The head tube lengths are longer than a lot of other bikes. The EMX-3 geometry chart does not show rake or trail. I’d ask gitabike.com (US distributor) for the rakes or any other info, they’ve been responsive to most of my questions.


That is really cool. Do you have one? The Scandium "Classic Geometry" bike on their site is sweet too. I had a wine rep that was friends with someone at Gitabike (NC) and was going to try and work a "trade wine for frame deal" with them years back but I never took him up on it. Now I really want a USA made bike, and leaning towards metal of some sort, but should not be so close minded. I'm pretty limited in N.GA on what I can test ride & I do not want to hassle with ATL.


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## AFS (Sep 15, 2004)

I was thinking about getting one a little while back, but went with a custom steel bike. I would have liked to test one, but the shops in my area don't carry Merckx's. I thought that there was a chance that your LBS had them, since you mentioned that they had an older Merckx model. Those Lysnkey bikes look nice, I'm always checking out their website.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Silver Potato said:


> Is the weight of that Curtlo reasonable? That is really sharp!
> 
> The Lynskey is a Medium "3-Series" from last either '08 or '09 but is comparable to this years 2-series as far as I can tell. I'm going to email Lynskey to see if there were any geometry changes but this is what is on their site
> *HOUSEBLEND R230 M*
> ...


I haven't weighed the frame but it's built with True Temper S3 which is their current top of the line tubing. Considering frames built with OX Platinum weigh about 3.5, I'd put this frame at < 3.2, but that's a guess. When I spoke with Doug initially and told him I was building it up with Ultegra/ Easton EA70 wheelset and EC90 SLX fork, he said it would come out in the mid 17's. That's more than satisfactory in my book, but riders opt for steel for other reasons. 

Based on the numbers you provided, I calculated out the trail on the Lynskey to about 59, so it's close to your Klein (at over 60), but obviously not quite there.

Arbitrary frame sizing aside, I'm guessing you ride a 53-54?


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## parachutem (Jun 13, 2009)

Silver Potato said:


> Does anyone know where I can go to find the Q-Pro geometry? ...).


I hope I have attached the file. this should answer your question. If you cant read it I will upload a larger file to rapidshare or the like.


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