# Short and shallow handlebars



## black2002ls (Mar 19, 2013)

A little history. I started back to riding about a month ago. My first foray into it was in 2013 after back surgery. I logged about 250 miles that year on a 2008 (?) Specialized Allez. I decided about 2 months ago it was time to get back on. In the month i have been riding i have logged about 275 miles, prepping for a short tour in mid August, and attempting to get in shape to ride a metric century in early October.

Last week, a pretty sweet (in my opinion) deal was offered to me. A 2011 Felt F5 limited that had been upgraded to SRAM force components. After riding it, I was sold, handed over the $800 and scheduled a Body geometry fit at my LBS. (Anyone familiar with richardson Bike Mart?). After the fit, it was determined I was a bit stretched out,so they recommended an 80mm stem (currently had a 90mm) and a short and shallow bar. So, I ordered a new bar and stem. They showed up last night and I swapped everything over. 3t 80mm stem and 3t ergonova bar. 

After 16 miles last night, I hate the shorter stem, yes it feels better and releived some strain from my shoulders, but it made the bike VERY twitchy, which I don't like. This could be attributed to my overall inexperience, but I was definitely more stable with the longer stem. The Ergonova bar has a 77mm reach, so i went in search of something with a shorter reach to compensate for putting the longer stem back on. Is anyone aware of a handlebar that has a reach that is shorter than 70mm? The nashbar ergo carbon bar claims to be 65mm, but I have found ZERO reviews of this bar. In all honesty I have some reservations buying a "unbranded" carbon bar without hearing some solid reviews!

Insight, input?


----------



## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

It seems that you and I are Googling the same things. I spent the last few days looking into this and there's a box full of bars in my living room (from backcountry.com). What's even funnier is that were both riding the same Ergonova Pro 77cm bar. Onto the bars:

ZIPP rebooted their bar and stem line two years ago they came out with a line of Service Course bars (around $100) in 70, 75 and 80 reach (the SL-70, curiously I think the 75 reach is called the short and shallow). Do check this line out. The only negative here is that they have ERGO bends and the "clamp area" where one can clamp accessories isn't wide. The SL-70 ERGO has a flat top with cable grooves, the SL-70 has a round tops without grooves, both have the same type of bend in the bar. I could do Garmin mount but there wouldn't be much room for my light before the round starts tapering into a flat top with cable groove underneath. On the aesthetic side of things these things are very sleek with nice understated shiny portions which go nice with their line of color matched squared section stems. Zipp - Speed Weaponry | Bars | Service Course SL-70 Ergo?

The model these replaced was the ZIPP SSR (ShortShallowReach) CLS bars. These had a more traditional bend and I believe the same reach. The difference between these and the new line is the ramp angle, or the angle of rampdown (versus parallel horizon) which lesser angle facilitates are more flat transition to the hoods. new bars are 7, old bars were 10 degrees if I recall correctly. Here are some pictures: Zipp super short CSL bar pics - Weight Weenies they can be found on eBay for stupid cheap. Be careful, the new SL line is center to center on the hoods BUT older CLS SSR bars I believe are measured out to out at the hoods. You'll be able to tell by looking at closeups of bars in auction pictures. 

I used to ride FSA Omega Compact bars, which while 80mm reach on paper, certainly felt a lot shorter than the Ergonova's and had a nice flat top with a neutral flat transfer to SRAM hardware. In the drops these had a lot more real estate which was parallel with the ground. I liked cruising with my fists on the flat part. I think the SSR CLS bars have more of this flat section than the new SL service course line. The drop on the FSA's was 125 I believe. Also, FSA bars are measured out to out. So a 44cm out to out bar was 43 center to center on the hoods. (these are around $50)

I also checked out Profile Design's new DRiVe line: Profile Design :: DRiVe Series This looked really good on paper, but lacked flat tops and cable grooves. Also, I tested my grip width and was sized for the 75 reach bar, despite having relatively small hands and stubby fingers. Indeed, the 1/Zero Five bar or their 70 reach bar had a curve which was too tight for my palm. The 1/Twenty bar as mentioned, had a reach of 75 and a relatively deep drop of 137. However, the whole concept of drive is that the most powerful position is about halfway up the drops and that was a 120 drop from the tops. These are measured center to center at the hoods. (around $100)

Also, I would suggest going aluminum. With 25mm tires and lower pressures you don't need the buffer, also you don't need to wonder if your bars are doing to crack and wreck your teeth after your bike falls over and hits the ground. IMO, not the best place to save 130 grams of non rotational weight. 

Funny thing is the more I ride on the Ergonova's the more I like them, little drop from the tops to the hoods and all. I have to run but hopefully this points you in the right direction.


----------



## black2002ls (Mar 19, 2013)

Thank you for all of that information. After looking into it a bit more, I think the bars on thr felt were 3T ergosum, which have an 89mm reach. The ergonova bar I picked up has a 77mm reach. I may swap back to the 90mm stem and see how it works. The other down side is that I picked up a 40mm bar. That is what was recommended, the fit specialist said I needed a slightly more narrow bar than what I had. He measured it as a 42cm. When I pulled it, it was tagged as a 40. I am thinking a 38 cm is what I needed. 

Tonight before my ride, I am going to swap stems and re-set the hoods and bar angle. See how that works for me.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

When you're shopping for bars, be aware that some are measured center-to-center and others are measured outside-to-outside. 3T bars are measured center-to-center, so if you were looking at bars that are measured outside-to-outside, then 42cm outside-to-outside would be the equivalent of 40cm center-to-center.


----------



## black2002ls (Mar 19, 2013)

tvad said:


> When you're shopping for bars, be aware that some are measured center-to-center and others are measured outside-to-outside. 3T bars are measured center-to-center, so if you were looking at bars that are measured outside-to-outside, then 42cm outside-to-outside would be the equivalent of 40cm center-to-center.


That one took me a bit to catch, so I have been keeping an eye on it. Both bars I have are 3T although they are 4 years apart, I would think they are measured the same. However, I did measure at the drops and the old bar was 42cm outside to outside and the new bar was 40cm. Does 3t measure at the hoods?


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

black2002ls said:


> Does 3t measure at the hoods?


3t measures center-to-center at the bar ends.

One other thing to be aware of is some bars are wider at the ends (and are still measured there), so if you're looking at one of those brands, then again you have to compensate 2cm for the wide flare if comparing to bars that aren't flared. You can always find this info on the manufacturer's websites.


----------



## black2002ls (Mar 19, 2013)

tvad said:


> 3t measures center-to-center at the bar ends.
> 
> One other thing to be aware of is some bars are wider at the ends (and are still measured there), so if you're looking at one of those brands, then again you have to compensate 2cm for the wide flare if comparing to bars that aren't flared. You can always find this info on the manufacturer's websites.


Thank you. I think that is the difference in the two bars that I have. The ergosums seem to flare a bit more than the ergonovas.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Go here:

https://www.3tcycling.com/road/en/bike-components/handlebars/ergonova-ltd/

Click on "Buyers Guide Roadbar" in the download section of the web page.


----------



## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm using Zipp Service Course S&S on both my road bikes. For me it's the perfect drop and reach. But who cares? My experience may not mean anything to anyone else. We're all made different, and ride different frames and setups.


----------



## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

I had somewhat the same experience as 9W9W. The FSA Energy Compact handlebars that came on a new bike I just purchased are VERY short and shallow compared to the 3T Ergonovas, even though their specs will tell you otherwise. This of course is attributable to the method of measuring as others have pointed out. I've been riding the Ergonovas for the past 3 years and just compared them directly. Not even close—the FSAs are very compact. Also, the drops extend a lot further back than the tops, so that will help with reach if you move to a longer stem. 

I actually like them so far—I increased the saddle to bar drop by 1cm, so when I'm on the hoods I'm a bit lower and can still go into the drops without feeling overextended. Thought about moving to a 100mm stem, but will ride the bike as set up for awhile before I start making any changes.


----------



## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I like zipp contour sl/ss


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Williams Cycling has a short reach and drop bar. $69
Williams Maxim ACS Alloy Stem


*WEIGHT​*​​235g (42cm)​​*REACH​*​​75mm​​*DROP​*​​123mm​​*FLARE​*​​4°​​

<tbody>

</tbody>


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

You guys just spent way too much.
Check out my next purchase. My wife was impressed I found such a deal. A bit later, she hands me a paper to sign. Something about increasing life insurance or something. I just let her handle those things normally


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> You guys just spent way too much.
> Check out my next purchase. My wife was impressed I found such a deal. A bit later, she hands me a paper to sign. Something about increasing life insurance or something. I just let her handle those things normally
> View attachment 308853


More choices I just can't decide.


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

jta said:


> I actually like them so far—I increased the saddle to bar drop by 10cm


I am manpressed. I'm picturing a yoga-like contortion!


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

black2002ls said:


> A little history. I started back to riding about a month ago. My first foray into it was in 2013 after back surgery. I logged about 250 miles that year on a 2008 (?) Specialized Allez. I decided about 2 months ago it was time to get back on. In the month i have been riding i have logged about 275 miles, prepping for a short tour in mid August, and attempting to get in shape to ride a metric century in early October.
> 
> Last week, a pretty sweet (in my opinion) deal was offered to me. A 2011 Felt F5 limited that had been upgraded to SRAM force components. After riding it, I was sold, handed over the $800 and scheduled a Body geometry fit at my LBS. (Anyone familiar with richardson Bike Mart?). After the fit, it was determined I was a bit stretched out,*so they recommended an 80mm stem (currently had a 90mm)* and a short and shallow bar. So, I ordered a new bar and stem. They showed up last night and I swapped everything over. 3t 80mm stem and 3t ergonova bar.
> 
> ...


This is called placebo effect.

Changing the stem...especially such a tiny amount (1cm) will not change handling much if at all. To alter handling input so, if you had a 140mm stem and went to a 70mm stem I could believe it. I'm not even worrying about stem angles, as there isn't much point-as the change in handling geometry either way is small.

It is in your head, IMHO as far as handling is concerned.


----------



## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

DrSmile said:


> I am manpressed. I'm picturing a yoga-like contortion!


Yes, my knuckles drag on the ground in tight turns;-) 

Thanks for catching that, corrected above.


----------

