# Wheels worth the upgrade at all?



## albertabeef (May 15, 2011)

Hey folks,

I'm a large (6' 3", 225lbs) rider currently riding with the following wheels: Front: 24H Mavic CXP 22, Rear: 28H Mavic CXP 33 - both on Ultegra Hubs with 14g SS spokes.

These are strong wheels, and even at my size I only need to true them about once every couple months (or if I unexpectedly hit something...) but I'm wondering if I should get a second set for some faster rides.

I've been looking at purchasing a set of Ksyrium Elites for faster/more-competitive group rides (especially on hilly climbs) and using the old CXP's as my regular training wheels.

At my size do you think I'd notice the difference? Or should I just keep the money in my pocket?

As other info I currently ride a fully ultegra-equipped Cannondale and try to ride between 200-300km per week - not a lot, but spinal issues prevent me from doing more. Regular rides through the foothills/mountains see me averaging around 28 - 30km/h overall while solo training - which isn't bad for a middle-aged broken guy with an extra 10-15lbs of belly-fat on him...

Thanks for any opinions. (And yes, I KNOW I losing the rest of the weight will do as much for me as the wheelset .... working on it, LOL)


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## albertabeef (May 15, 2011)

I should also mention the benefit I'm looking for is not so much for increased speed on solo rides (I'm smart enough to know that would be negligible at best), but to help me keep my speed up with groups on hilly terrain - which is where I still slow down considerably compared to 150lb riders (well, except on the downhill side.)

In finishing sprints and in climbing I think I could benefit from the lighter (but still strong) wheels - just not sure if I can benefit enough to justify the money - so looking for some input from people who've upgraded to a lighter wheelset. It's not something I've been able to 'test drive', unfortunately.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

First off, steer clear of the Kysriums. They are extremely heavy and the radial lacing on the rear drive side makes for sub par power transfer. If your looking to keep up specifically on the climbs, you could always lace a Stans Alpha 340 to a set of White Industries hubs. This would drastically decrease rotating mass which will make keeping up with the group on those climbs a bit easier. Additionally, the White Ind. hubs will not require near as much service in the long haul as the Kysriums. 
However, when you do eventually need to service them, they will be much more simplistic and will only take 2 minutes or less.


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## redvespablur (Aug 23, 2011)

Do you find the current wheelset is flexing on the climbs? I'm 6'4'' and 245 and did with my Open Pros laced to Centaur Hubs that are otherwise very comfortable and stay very true - to eliminate flexing went to stiffer and a little lighter Zonda wheelset. Less flex, less comfort, and a little lighter - better on hills because I am not wasting power to flex and rub.

The 150lb guys still do not have any problem climbing away from me.....


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

redvespablur said:


> Do you find the current wheelset is flexing on the climbs? I'm 6'4'' and 245 and did with my Open Pros laced to Centaur Hubs that are otherwise very comfortable and stay very true - to eliminate flexing went to stiffer and a little lighter Zonda wheelset. Less flex, less comfort, and a little lighter - better on hills because I am not wasting power to flex and rub.
> 
> The 150lb guys still do not have any problem climbing away from me.....


Yeah but coming down the hill you'll smoke them!

Those are very good wheelsets for the intended purpose by the way.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Weight savings*



albertabeef said:


> I should also mention the benefit I'm looking for is not so much for increased speed on solo rides (I'm smart enough to know that would be negligible at best), but to help me keep my speed up with groups on hilly terrain - which is where I still slow down considerably compared to 150lb riders (well, except on the downhill side.)
> 
> In finishing sprints and in climbing I think I could benefit from the lighter (but still strong) wheels - just not sure if I can benefit enough to justify the money - so looking for some input from people who've upgraded to a lighter wheelset. It's not something I've been able to 'test drive', unfortunately.


At your weight, putting out 250 watts on a 6% grade, for every 450 gm (1 lb.) you shave off the bike/rider, you improve your climbing speed by about 0.06 mph. That's about 30 seconds or 320 feet faster per hour. It makes no difference whether that weight is rotating (in your wheels) or not.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm 165lbs and am much more worried about the structural integrity of the bike, than anything less than 5lbs. 

If I was 225 I'd be riding 36 spoke touring wheels on a bike which could accomodate at least 28c tires. Heck, I'm riding 28's on a 32 hole open pro front and a 32 hole velocity synergy O/C rear. And I ride with tire liners. I'm also very fast.

A wheelset weighing 2000 grams is not heavy. Especially for someone with a clydesdale's size and power.

To the OP. The answer is, no.


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## redvespablur (Aug 23, 2011)

I worry about structural integrity but you make it sound like a Clyde is just better off in a hummer than on a road bike. I agree that weight of the wheel is not the biggest of deals but you need not have 36 spoke wheels. I have 32 spoke open pros that are really too flexy under load and low spoke count Zondas that are stiff way beyond the limited spoke count. 

Stiff is good.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

redvespablur said:


> I worry about structural integrity but you make it sound like a Clyde is just better off in a hummer than on a road bike. I agree that weight of the wheel is not the biggest of deals but you need not have 36 spoke wheels. I have 32 spoke open pros that are really too flexy under load and low spoke count Zondas that are stiff way beyond the limited spoke count.
> 
> Stiff is good.


I just don't think it's a big deal to ride a 20lb bike. 

For me, stiff is tiring. I'd rather ride tires at 75 to 80psi.

edit,

I don't think many clyde's realize they ARE Hummers. Why a Hummer wants to ride around on a Lotus chassis is beyond me.

A clyde riding on a 15 pound bike with 23c tires and low spoke count wheels is like these people driving Escalades with the extremely low profile tires.

Doesn't make sense.


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## beaverfever (Jul 7, 2007)

The wheels will not make much difference to you when climbing – the weight difference between old and new wheels will be measured in grams, not kilos, any aero difference will be minor, so at lower speeds you will barely feel any change. I suggest you don't spend your money looking for easy solutions. I don't know what your physique is, apart from the basic stats provided, but if you lose weight (kilos) you will definitely feel a big difference on hills.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

beaverfever said:


> The wheels will not make much difference to you when climbing – the weight difference between old and new wheels will be measured in grams, not kilos, any aero difference will be minor, so at lower speeds you will barely feel any change. I suggest you don't spend your money looking for easy solutions. I don't know what your physique is, apart from the basic stats provided, but if you lose weight (kilos) you will definitely feel a big difference on hills.


This is incorrect. Lighter wheels are more beneficial when climbing then heavier aero wheels. Low inertia weight is better for speeds under 10 or so MPH encountered when climbing grades, but heavier aero wheels are better for higher speeds and more level terrain. The more mass a wheel has the more power it takes to accelerate and the steeper the climb the more mass becomes a factor. 

But problem is when riding your not constantly climbing, you climb then level out, maybe go up and down for awhile then you descend. Overall the best wheels are lightweight aero wheels but then you sacrifice to some degree durability and price, so high performance racing wheels are not as durable for everyday riding as normal wheels and are very expensive, so you have to make compromises, a little more weight and little less aero.

Speaking of all of this what does anyone know about IRD Cadence Aero wheels? They seem like a good compromise between strength, weight and aero for a relatively low cost at around $550 for a wheelset depending on spokes and hubs of course. These are hand made wheels so you can select spokes and hubs unlike factory wheels; so if one wanted to spend a lot of money could have the wheels set up with Sapim CX rays bladed spokes or spend less and go with DT dbl butted spokes.


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## sneakyracer (Dec 1, 2007)

I have seen quite a bit of clydes ride on Mavic Cosmics with good results. I have a set and they ride VERY nice. They are not super light but light enough. Power transfer is solid but still offer a comfortable ride. Great combination. Of course there are many other options.

As others mentioned, try using 25c tires for greater comfort and traction.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Inertial weight*



froze said:


> This is incorrect. Lighter wheels are more beneficial when climbing then heavier aero wheels. Low inertia weight is better for speeds under 10 or so MPH encountered when climbing grades, but heavier aero wheels are better for higher speeds and more level terrain. The more mass a wheel has the more power it takes to accelerate and the steeper the climb the more mass becomes a factor.


Acceleration has nothing specifically to do with climbing. Inertial weight differences are only meaningful during acceleration/deceleration. Therefore, inertial weight has nothing to do with climbing speed. Weight is weight, whether is is in your rims/tires, your frame, your seat bag, your water bottle, or your body.

Just for reference, a VERY aero wheel that weighed 450 gm more than a standard wheel would be 0.05 mph slower at 250 watts, 150 lb rider, 6% grade (10.5 mph). A standard wheel that weighed 450 gm more would be 0.1 mph slower. The differences are tiny.


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## ka0t1c07 (Jul 28, 2010)

+1. Alpha wheels. Light weight hoops makes a big difference.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> Acceleration has nothing specifically to do with climbing. Inertial weight differences are only meaningful during acceleration/deceleration. Therefore, inertial weight has nothing to do with climbing speed. Weight is weight, whether is is in your rims/tires, your frame, your seat bag, your water bottle, or your body.
> 
> Just for reference, a VERY aero wheel that weighed 450 gm more than a standard wheel would be 0.05 mph slower at 250 watts, 150 lb rider, 6% grade (10.5 mph). A standard wheel that weighed 450 gm more would be 0.1 mph slower. The differences are tiny.


And that's why I said overall a aero wheel is better. But what most people don't know is how much of an aero wheel do you need to make a difference. Standard aero rims most people buy is insignificant in cheating the air. The less deep the rim is the more spokes there are, and the more spokes there are the more the air is disturbed. So unless the rim is at least a 50mm dish the difference between a standard box rim vs a standard aero rim is as much of a difference as the weight example you gave...the differences are tiny. But overall a standard aero rim is a tiny bit better then a standard box rim.


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

Originally posted by* Chris-X*
just don't think it's a big deal to ride a 20lb bike. 



> For me, stiff is tiring. I'd rather ride tires at 75 to 80psi.
> 
> edit,
> 
> ...


Neither do I. I used to race a 20lb steel bike (consider it a classic sports car like a 250 testa rossa) that rolled on either 32 hole tubbies or 36 hole clinchers. At the time I weighed 155lbs. Why were the wheels so overbuilt? Because at that time, low spoke hubs/wheels didn't exist. When I decided to go all newer technology (so to speak) some 24 years later in 04, the bike was aluminum/cf, rolled on 24/28 spoke wheels, weighed 17.5lbs with pedals but weighed 235lbs. So, by your statements, I was a Hummer riding on a Lotus chassis.
When I went new again in 07, cf frame with another set 24/28 wheels, 16lbs ready to roll but still the Hummer with newer 458 chassis at 235lbs. Had to sell the cf bike last year but now I'm back down to 170-175lbs (actually lost about 200lbs. I lost 60-65lbs and loosing the ex was another 130-135lbs), feeling much better and never had any structural integrity problems with my equipment. Still on the original equipment when I went new. Didn't have to upgrade anything.

Worried about structural integrity?? I would say if you are within a specific weight limit on a part, you don't anything to worry about. I guess under your thinking it wouldn't have made sense for me to buy the Abici or Guerciotti. I guess I'm the exception to your rule. It was something new and gave me incentive to go out and ride more. Why? because of the way it felt and rode. Maybe a new wheelset will give the OP incentive to ride more. If you find stiffness tiring and value comfort that's cool. I don't look at a bicycle as a comfort vehicle. I would rather drive a GT3 RS or a Aprillia RSV than a Bently or a Hog.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I don't think there's a big deal with riding a 20 pound bike either, in fact all my bikes range from 20 to 25 pounds. Funny thing is, I pass guys on 15 pound carbon fiber bikes with aero wheels.


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## pitracon (Aug 29, 2006)

Keep training with your current set, and save money once you lose more weight..


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

exracer said:


> Originally posted by* Chris-X*
> just don't think it's a big deal to ride a 20lb bike.
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't care less what anyone rides. Bottom line is, if you don't have the legs 10lbs on a bike isn't going to make a whole heck of a lot of difference.

Are there differences though? Yes. One difference that is being recognized by scientific studies is that vibrations do tire people out, from truck drivers to bike racers. What is the most effective way to damp vibrations. Tire technology.

As for your comparisons of sport bikes to cruisers. Yamaha, Honda and Ducati actually made their Moto GP bikes, as well as their road sport bikes, LESS stiff.

MotoGP Tech - Art & Science - Sport Rider Magazine - Mobile


_With each improvement in tire grip, the bikes are capable of ever-more-aggressive lean angles, and the frame and swingarm become more responsible for absorbing midcorner bumps. This is accomplished by designing in a certain amount of flex, as opposed to building a frame or swingarm as stiff as ultimately possible. Chassis stiffness is generally defined in three planes: vertical, lateral and torsional. Vertical stiffness must be strong enough to handle braking loads, whereas torsional and lateral rigidity must be lower to allow the chassis to flex and absorb bumps. This has led to frames and swingarms with taller and thinner sections as time goes on, with some appearing surprisingly flimsy. For '06, Yamaha removed the cross-member to which the rear shock mounts and attached the shock directly to the engine. While this change did alter the characteristics of the frame, feeding the suspension loads into the engine would also allow the frame to be better "tuned" to achieve a specific characteristic. The RC211V's Unit Pro-Link design offers similar benefits, as does the Ducati Desmosedici's rear suspension layout, which is similar to the Honda's._

The OP said he wanted to "upgrade" to Ksyrium elites for a "faster/more competitive group rides." He asked if it would "make a difference?"

I answered no, it won't matter as to his speed and competitiveness on group rides.

Also, the idea of a road bike is to be as comfortable as possible for long distances, while compromising speed to the smallest degree, and ALL vehicles are a compromise of one sort or another.

If you see any Campy literature they recommend being extra vigilant inspecting road bikes when the rider's weight is over 180lb. That's not me, it's Campy and it's also common sense. Greater rider weight means larger forces on the bike.

Do you think a Ford Focus can carry as much weight as a Crown Victoria?

BTW, congrats on getting the 135lb piano off your back..


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Chris-X said:


> I'm 165lbs and am much more worried about the structural integrity of the bike, than anything less than 5lbs.
> 
> If I was 225 I'd be riding 36 spoke touring wheels on a bike which could accomodate at least 28c tires. Heck, I'm riding 28's on a 32 hole open pro front and a 32 hole velocity synergy O/C rear. And I ride with tire liners. I'm also very fast.
> 
> ...


+1.... At 225 lbs, a lighter wheel won'rt mean much. You will be like me. I'm 6'3", 215lbs (down from 232) and I ride on a set of Velocity Deep V wheels when I'm climbing. With Ultegra hubs, these wheels are still heavy, but I'm confident that I won't be breaking spokes on long climbs like I have on lower spoke count, lower weight wheels. Just because you're big doesn't mean you have a handicap. Your size means you'll dish out more power to do the same thing that a lightweight does. Lighterweight wheels won't make you faster on hills like it would for a 150 lb. rider. You're still carrying your own body weight. I actually climb faster on my Velocity Deep Vs than I do on my Ksyrium SLs and Neuvation M28 Aero3s..... both which are lighter wheels than the Deep Vs. The Ksyriums are going on EBay as soon as I find the time to sell them. They aren't bad wheels, but they aren't that good either. They are just a poor value when you look at cost for what you get.


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

I will use me as an example. Just bought stuff to build new wheels for my bike. Its going to lower the weight of the bike by 1.969 pounds which is an 11% decrease in bike weight. Once you add me, clothes, gear, the weight savings are less than 1%. Is that going to make a measurable difference? Hell no. Not unless I am down at 160 pounds and in peak physical condition.

Why but the wheels then? Because I can and it makes me happy. If I am happy, I ride more. Also I am a mechanical / aerospace engineer who just wants to learn something new by building my own wheels.

If it makes you want to ride more, buy some hot new wheels and who cares about the math


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## Doug B (Sep 11, 2009)

bwbishop said:


> I will use me as an example. Just bought stuff to build new wheels for my bike. Its going to lower the weight of the bike by 1.969 pounds which is an 11% decrease in bike weight. Once you add me, clothes, gear, the weight savings are less than 1%. Is that going to make a measurable difference? Hell no. Not unless I am down at 160 pounds and in peak physical condition.
> 
> Why but the wheels then? Because I can and it makes me happy. If I am happy, I ride more. Also I am a mechanical / aerospace engineer who just wants to learn something new by building my own wheels.
> 
> If it makes you want to ride more, buy some hot new wheels and who cares about the math


Agreed. I'm a aero-mechanical engineer too. I know I won't get any faster with a $1500 wheel upgrade, but if the wheels are motivating me to get on the bike more and ride longer - then I'll lose more weight and be in better shape. It's a $1500 gym membership of sorts.


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## beaverfever (Jul 7, 2007)

froze said:


> This is incorrect. Lighter wheels are more beneficial when climbing then heavier aero wheels.


"The wheels will not make much difference to you"

I know the basics, and I know the advanced stuff. I also know that this is a big heavy man who probably isn't blazingly fast, and he wants to be faster up hills. A few grams off his wheels will not make a difference to him. He should save his money. If he loses 10 kg (assuming he's not already 225 lb of pure, lean muscle), then he will be very much faster going up hills, which would go along with other personal benefits that come from weight loss.

Many technical advantages in bicycling have a bigger benefit the faster you go (increases as square roots of etc., etc.), and for most wheel upgrades you need to be very fast to get a truly worthwhile benefit. One inference is that the slower you are, then there is less benefit, and for many riders, that benefit is so small as to be inconsequential. 

Another inference is that I believe most riders on $2,000+ wheelsets who I have ever met have completely wasted their money.


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## beaverfever (Jul 7, 2007)

sneakyracer said:


> I have seen quite a bit of clydes ride on Mavic Cosmics with good results. I have a set and they ride VERY nice. They are not super light but light enough. Power transfer is solid but still offer a comfortable ride. Great combination. Of course there are many other options.


Cosmic Elites? My personal experience riding with those wheels was absolutely terrible, with many problems with keeping a round, true wheel –*and I was not so heavy as the original poster. 

Since then, a couple of years ago on a ride another rider on Cosmic Elites rode over an average sewer cover – not a great move, but it shouldn't be a disaster – his rear wheel literally exploded, broken into fragments. The rider on my right was struck in the face with a piece of the rear wheel.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

beaverfever said:


> "The wheels will not make much difference to you"
> 
> Another inference is that I believe most riders on $2,000+ wheelsets who I have ever met have completely wasted their money.


No truer words were ever spoken concerning wheels.


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## beaverfever (Jul 7, 2007)

redvespablur said:


> I have 32 spoke open pros that are really too flexy under load...


Such wheels described as being too flexible doesn't seem right. If those were my wheels, I'd get them looked at by a specialist.


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## beaverfever (Jul 7, 2007)

albertabeef said:


> I've been looking at purchasing a set of Ksyrium Elites for faster/more-competitive group rides (especially on hilly climbs) and using the old CXP's as my regular training wheels.
> 
> At my size do you think I'd notice the difference? Or should I just keep the money in my pocket?


Have you made a wheel decision yet?

More input regarding different wheels and their real-world weight differences: Recently, for my own curiosity (frankly, we just got a new kitchen scale) I weighed two front wheels. 

First: a late-90s build, 32 unbutted spokes laced 3x on a Mavic Open Pro rim, Ultegra 600 hub, with a wire-bead Conti Ultra Race tire, and a very old Shimano quick-release skewer.

Second: a 2004 Mavic Ksyium Elite, Hutchinson Fusion 2 kevlar bead tire, with a 2006 Mavic skewer. Both wheels use the same Conti tubes.

The difference is about 100 grams – where does it come from? Roughly half is the difference between the two skewers (I checked – the upshot being that if I swap the skewers the wheel weights would be almost identical). The 32-hole has rim tape, the Ksyrium does not – how many grams there? One tire is an affordable wire-bead type, the other is performance-oriented, kevlar bead – what difference there? I'm not curious enough to pull the tires off to learn the weight difference between those.

These are old wheels, but nevertheless the weight differences are marginal, and not really in the wheels themselves, but in accessories. A pair of gel packets in your pocket weighs about 80-100 grams. Is that worth spending hundreds for?


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

bwbishop said:


> I will use me as an example. Just bought stuff to build new wheels for my bike. Its going to lower the weight of the bike by 1.969 pounds which is an 11% decrease in bike weight. Once you add me, clothes, gear, the weight savings are less than 1%. Is that going to make a measurable difference? Hell no. Not unless I am down at 160 pounds and in peak physical condition.
> 
> *Why but the wheels then? Because I can and it makes me happy. If I am happy, I ride more.* Also I am a mechanical / aerospace engineer who just wants to learn something new by building my own wheels.
> 
> If it makes you want to ride more, buy some hot new wheels and *who cares about the math *


I am shocked....an aerospace/mechanical engineer not caring "about the math"! 

All kidding aside, I agree with your simplistic look at this situation. I, like many other members on here, am always reading about and looking into the latest and greatest wheelset that would improve my overall performance (climbing, sprinting, centuries, etc.). I have tried various wheelsets with different rim material, rim depths, and different weights.....and in the end, it still comes down to the rider's conditioning/strength. AND, as mentioned above, there's always the psychological advantage of getting that new set of wheels that makes you push a little harder on that virgin ride; hence, translating to perceived "better" performance with the new wheels.


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## 196nautique (Sep 23, 2005)

ooops! sorry.


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## redvespablur (Aug 23, 2011)

beaverfever said:


> Such wheels described as being too flexible doesn't seem right. If those were my wheels, I'd get them looked at by a specialist.


Thanks, I did. I am just heavy, tall and extraordinarily powerful


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

redvespablur said:


> Thanks, I did. I am just heavy, tall and extraordinarily powerful


Some may think you're trying to be funny but I actually know of a guy that is 6'4" and weighed 240 pounds all muscle. He actually broke bikes, he broke two of those older lugged aluminum Vitus bikes which got replaced under warranty and the last one he never rode for fear of breaking it so it hangs in his garage. Then he broke two Kliens, then two Cannondales, all over a period of 20 years. He broke more wheels then he can count! So when he bought his touring bike he bought a custom Rivendell, and Grant had it built for his weight and power, that bike has given him no trouble since he bought it in 04, not even the wheels, and he tours with an additional 60 or so pounds on the bike once a year for 3 to 4 months at a time since he got the bike. He and Grant went with a 48 hole tandem rear wheel, and a 40 hole touring rim for the front, I believe Grant ordered the wheels from Peter White because he wanted to make sure the wheels would hold up.


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## proguy747 (Jul 26, 2009)

280lbs here. Kinlin with white hubs done by Ligero. Have not had a single problem in a year and half.


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*Interesting. . .*



froze said:


> Funny thing is, I pass guys on 15 pound carbon fiber bikes with aero wheels.


How do you know they weren't coming back after being sick for a few weeks, or a recovery ride or at the end of a long ride? I have to laugh at all these working class heros on this forum. Perhaps the guy makes three times the wage you do? Just because someone is a failure in life, and can't afford a nice bike is no reason to be bitter . 
To the OP, if you're not a pro cyclist, spending over $1200 on a wheelset is retarded, but hey, it's a free country.


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

QQUIKM3 said:


> *How do you know* they weren't coming back after being sick for a few weeks, or a recovery ride or at the end of a long ride? I have to laugh at all these working class heros on this forum. Perhaps the guy makes three times the wage you do? Just because someone is a failure in life, and can't afford a nice bike is no reason to be bitter .
> To the OP, if you're not a pro cyclist, spending over $1200 on a wheelset is retarded, but hey, it's a free country.


Ouch.....a little harsh there. But, I do have to agree with what you are trying to say. I have a fairly nice bike IMO. Sometimes after a 3-4 hour ride with heavy climbing, I may take it easy a bit the last couple of miles on flatter stretches...ie, cooling down period. I wonder IF those cyclists who zoom by me during this period think the same thing.....ie, he has a nice bike but he's slow 

I have to admit. When I first got into cycling and started to get more fit as a cyclist, I would sometimes pass up riders who looked pretty cool all decked out in their team jerseys and expensive bikes. I sometimes thought....wow, they have the nice gear, but I'm still passing them. But, few miles later, they would zoom pass me with a vengence, and I just smile :blush2:


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

QQUIKM3 said:


> How do you know they weren't coming back after being sick for a few weeks, or a recovery ride or at the end of a long ride? I have to laugh at all these working class heros on this forum. Perhaps the guy makes three times the wage you do? Just because someone is a failure in life, and can't afford a nice bike is no reason to be bitter .
> To the OP, if you're not a pro cyclist, spending over $1200 on a wheelset is retarded, but hey, it's a free country.



How do you I wasn't? So that's why I passed those guys, they make 3 times the wages I do thus their much more weighted down with carrying all that money around while they ride! I ride junk rusty bikes I find in the junk yards around town so I can ride by those fools with their tooty fruity hoity toity bikes and flip them off as I go by.

Then you tell some one who is probably wealthier then you are they can't spend $1,200 for a wheelset, who's the working class jealous hero now? Sounds like you can't even afford to buy my rusted heap! That's alright, just stay on your skateboard, someday you'll own a bike.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Zen Cyclery said:


> First off, steer clear of the Kysriums. They are extremely heavy and the radial lacing on the rear drive side makes for sub par power transfer.


I think this is lore and myth and an usubstantiated claim. Admittedly the "Tour" magazine and German "Roadbike" have been complaining about this torque issue for a long time because oh wonder you can measure it and the Mavic Ksyrium line of wheels always came short.

However, I doubt one would ever be able to notice a difference between a wheel with high torsional stiffeness (e.g. Fulcrum Racing 3) vs Mavic Ksyrium Elite. I also have a pair of Mavic Aksiums where the radial lacing although on the rear is on the non-drive-side but feel on the road: ditto. 

I have a set of Fulcrum Racing 5 (high torsional stiffness) and Mavic Ksyrium Equipe (low torque) and there is no noticeable difference when climbing or sprinting. However, I am not a racer but doubt the situation would be different then.

Btw: The situation completely changes for lateral stiffness: and a less laterally stiff wheel will rub on my brakes (e.g. Mavic Aksiums rub on my rear brake pads whereas the Mavic Equipe wouldn't).


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

redvespablur said:


> I worry about structural integrity but you make it sound like a Clyde is just better off in a hummer than on a road bike. I agree that weight of the wheel is not the biggest of deals but you need not have 36 spoke wheels. I have 32 spoke open pros that are really too flexy under load and low spoke count Zondas that are stiff way beyond the limited spoke count.
> 
> Stiff is good.


They might be good as long as you don't break a spoke. 

I am somehwat lucky and have never broken a spoke on my Mavic Ksyrium Equipe (18/20) or Fulcrum Racing 5 (20/24) or Mavic Aksium (20/25) or on my commuter Shimano WHR-550 (20/24).

I think the problem with such kind of advice is maybe the fact that little heavier people tend to break spokes more frequently. I do not know what would happen if you break a spoke on the rear of the Zonda wheel on the G3 spoke pattern or the Fulcrum Racing 3 which features 21 spokles but only 7 on the non drive side. 

At least a 32 spoke laced wheel will bring you home if you happen to burst a spoke.

Are any people here using a Zonda or Fulcrum Racing 3 for cross country?

10 kg more on body weight is quite a lot even the person looks normal for his height. Try attaching a 10 kg dumbbell on your next ride.


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## beaverfever (Jul 7, 2007)

redvespablur said:


> Thanks, I did. I am just heavy, tall and extraordinarily powerful


I understand that; I too am tall, with a reputation for leg strength, and have weighed as much 100 kg/225 lbs, but my 32-spoke Mavic Open Pros are very strong and stiff, and have never required truing. The front is about 12-13 years old, the rear 10-11 years. Add to that: they were used for long-distance commuting for several years –*and I still ride on them – they're mounted on my bike now. That is the type of performance I expect from such wheels. The rear was built by Wheelsmith USA, the front by some machine or some anonymous person somewhere.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

You do have to be careful getting wheels built at an LBS these days. So many wheels being bought are factory built wheels making it difficult to find a competent local wheel builder. So if you live in a big enough city to have several bike shops make sure you ask around who builds the best wheels. Otherwise I can't recommend Peter White enough, he builds fantastic wheels made for tandems, touring bikes, people that need strong wheels due to weight, he doesn't mess with ultra light racing wheels.

Peter White Cycles Home Page


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## redvespablur (Aug 23, 2011)

beaverfever said:


> I understand that; I too am tall, with a reputation for leg strength, and have weighed as much 100 kg/225 lbs, but my 32-spoke Mavic Open Pros are very strong and stiff, and have never required truing. The front is about 12-13 years old, the rear 10-11 years. Add to that: they were used for long-distance commuting for several years –*and I still ride on them – they're mounted on my bike now. That is the type of performance I expect from such wheels. The rear was built by Wheelsmith USA, the front by some machine or some anonymous person somewhere.


My Open Pros are bomb proof and comfortable but I get rub under heavy load with them that I don't with my Zondas. After initial shake down they have run true w/o need for adjustment.

I think if I broke a spoke on my Zondas it would be the result of being hit by deer or car. I have hit nasty potholes at speed that I thought would be end of me and them and no complaints.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

The Open Pros are indeed a good rim and would probably hold up; but the Open Sport is a bit more stout, designed as a narrow touring rim, would for sure handle your weight and power. I'm not saying that the Open Pros won't handle you, just that you would have an increase margin of safety with the Open Sport. There's also the Velocity Chukker rim designed for touring, tandem and heavy and or powerful riders.


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## redvespablur (Aug 23, 2011)

froze said:


> The Open Pros are indeed a good rim and would probably hold up; but the Open Sport is a bit more stout, designed as a narrow touring rim, would for sure handle your weight and power. I'm not saying that the Open Pros won't handle you, just that you would have an increase margin of safety with the Open Sport. There's also the Velocity Chukker rim designed for touring, tandem and heavy and or powerful riders.


Thanks. I was telling you something. Not asking you something....


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

redvespablur said:


> Thanks. I was telling you something. Not asking you something....


Appreciate the attitude. See I was telling the OP something, not telling you anything.


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## motobecane69 (Apr 8, 2011)

there is so much bullcrap in this thread it's ridiculous, half of it coming from people that aren't even clydes and want to cite scientific studies, yadda, yadda, yadda.

OP, I'm 6'3 245lbs fit and strong. My regular "training wheels" if you will were deep v's with tiagra hubs 32 dt comp spokes brass nipples. Your mavic cxp 22 rims weigh about the same, your ultegra hubs aren't that much lighter than the tiagra (shimano doesn't make incredibly light hubs, just really good hubs). they weighed in at 2200grams, your wheelset must be at least 2000 probably 2100. Whoever told you Ksyrium elites won't make a noticeable difference either doesn't know their ass from their elbow, or they are confusing the different Ksyriums since there are Elites and Equipes. The equipes are much heavier. The elites weigh in at 1575, thats a full pound lighter than your wheelset. That will make a trememdous difference to your ability to accelerate and the overall FEEL of your ride. It may not make you a whole lot faster over a given ride but I guarantee you that you will enjoy the feel of those wheels vs your existing set. The elites came on my motobecane immortal fire that i got last month but I sold them because I already had a set of carbon tubulars on the way to use as "race wheels"

Now with all that said, I wouldn't buy the Ksyrium elites, I'd go with something handbuilt that doesn't use proprietary spokes should you have a breakage. I sold my bike that had the deep v's but when I bought my motobecane but I also had a set of velocity fusions built with Circus monkey lightweight hubs, 32/32 with a combo of dt rev and dt super comp spokes. that wheelset weighs the same as the ksyrium elites at 1575 but has the added strength of the additional spokes (though if you look at a ksyrium elite wheel I could see it being a really strong wheel because it's such a proprietary design and the reveiews don't lie, a lot of clydes ride them. The difference is that ksyrium elites are $600 wheels, my handbuilt fusion wheels only cost me $300 to build myself, would have been $400 if i had to pay labor for the build so thats a significant savings.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

QQUIKM3 said:


> English is either your second language, or you came in last in your remedial English reading comprehension program.


I gots to come in lass in anglash. sees I wonce has a murm who asst me whet I used the word "ain't": Son whereas your grammer?" I saes to her: "why shes in the kitchin bakin cookies."


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## Rhymenocerus (Jul 17, 2010)

ydddddd.


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