# 1965-67 De Rosa frame



## dnalsaam

I just picked up the following De Rosa frame. It is labeled as a Chiorda, because it was built for the Salvarani pro team that was sponsored by Chiorda. I have received a letter from De Rosa confirming that it is an actual bike that they built for the team. They are not sure of the exact date or who the bike was built for, but there closest guess was some time between 1965 and 1967. Unfortunately the parts are not original and it would appear that the bottle bosses have been added later. Still a cool bike.


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## Mr. Versatile

Very nice! Looks like it's in excellent shape for its age. Is it Columbus? I have a mid 90's Columbus DeRosa as my only bike now. I like it as well as, or better than anything else I've ever had, (and I've had a bunch of bikes).

The Cinelli bars & stem, Record der. etc. are all period pieces. I don't recognise the crank though. What is it?


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## dnalsaam

Mr. Versatile said:


> Very nice! Looks like it's in excellent shape for its age. Is it Columbus? I have a mid 90's Columbus DeRosa as my only bike now. I like it as well as, or better than anything else I've ever had, (and I've had a bunch of bikes).
> 
> The Cinelli bars & stem, Record der. etc. are all period pieces. I don't recognise the crank though. What is it?


The Stem is definitely too new for the age of the bike. The bars could possibly be original. The Nuovo Record rear derailleur is too new, it would need to have been a Record rear derailleur for this period. The 3TTT saddle too is a bit newer than the age of the frame. The cranks are Stronglight which are period correct but not correct to a Salvarani team bike. The front derailleur is also at least 12 years too modern. The Weinmann brakes are almost correct for age but incorrect on a Salvarani bike.


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## brewster

That's a nice slice of history. What do you have in mind for it? Repaint as a De Rosa? Restore as is? As a rider or display bike?

brewster


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## dnalsaam

brewster said:


> That's a nice slice of history. What do you have in mind for it? Repaint as a De Rosa? Restore as is? As a rider or display bike?
> 
> brewster


My first priority is getting it home from Italy. I suppose that I will keep it as a Chiorda for the time being, but we will see. It is likely too small for me to ride comfortably so I'll decide later what to do with it.


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## merckxman

*Truly elegant lines*

The fork, chainstays....hmmmm.


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## FrankG

I think that I can help you date your DeRosa/Chiorda a bit better. The Salvarani company sponsored a pro cycling team from 1963-1972. In 1963 to 1965, the bicycles were (or were marked) as Magni's, which was a "sottomarche" or house brand of Chiorda. In 1967, Salvarani used Bianchi Speciallisima's as the team bikes. That puts the date at 1966 for a team bike marked as a Chiorda. The bikes used in 1968-1972 were similar, but the graphics were slightly different, although they still were the "azzura" color. 1966 is consistent with the letter you received from DeRosa. You can see a photograph of a similar team bicycle (in the same graphics) in Pages 94 and 95 of the 2005 book, "Felice Gimondi" available from Bianchi. The only problem is that the Salvarani jersey and shorts shown with your bicycle is of a later style, from 1970 onward. In 1966, the jersey would not have had the black and white "gears" on the chest. I still think the bike is from 1966 though, as explained above. The bike's components would have been all Campagnolo Record and/or Nuovo Record (as available) with Universal side pull brakes (a change from center pull to side pull was made in 1966). The bars and stem would have been Ambrosio or Cinelli. The fact that your bike is a DeRosa is very interesting. What made you identify it as such? It is marked in any way? Pietro Piezzalunga, longtime mechanic for the Salvarani and Bianchi-Campagnolo teams explained to me that the Chiorda team bikes were, in fact, made in Bianchi's Reparto Corse. Chiorda was, at the time, owned by Angelo Trapletti, a prominant industrialist from Bergamo, who also owned Bianchi, Legnano and Frejus. Thus, Chiorda team bikes were actually Bianchi's. However, at the time, it was quite common for racing stars to have their machines made by their framebuilders of choice. For example, it is well known that Masi made the team bikes for the Faema and Faemino teams, and Colnago made the bikes for Molteni. However, Eddy Mercx also had frames made up by DeRosa during this time, and Ferdinand Bracke always rode a Masi, despite being in the Peugot-BP team. So, it is not inconsistent that the bike is actually a DeRosa, but painted to appear as a Chiorda. However, this may not have been the case for all of the Salvarani team bikes. This may truly be a "special". I hope the forgoing has been of some interest to you. BTW, do you still have the bike? I think it is a very interesting piece of pro cycling history.


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## Mr. Versatile

Good info.Thanks for that.


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## dnalsaam

FrankG said:


> You can see a photograph of a similar team bicycle (in the same graphics) in Pages 94 and 95 of the 2005 book, "Felice Gimondi" available from Bianchi.


Can you tell if teh bike had bottle braze-ons in the photo?



FrankG said:


> The only problem is that the Salvarani jersey and shorts shown with your bicycle is of a later style, from 1970 onward.


The bike came from a former Salvarani team mechanic, as did the jersey and shorts. He claimed them to be the same vintage, but they could conceivably be a few years apart. Thanks for the information.




FrankG said:


> The bike's components would have been all Campagnolo Record and/or Nuovo Record (as available) with Universal side pull brakes (a change from center pull to side pull was made in 1966). The bars and stem would have been Ambrosio or Cinelli.


I have already fitted Record derailleurs, cranks (with 151 BCD), pedals and am building up wheels. It would be odd to fit Universal side-pulls in 1966 as the only models they then had were the mod.51. It seems that the mod.61 would favored over the mod.51 at that time. The Super 68 only came out in 1968. Upon what do you base the claim that they were using side pulls? I would prefer the sidepulls if they are correct, so I am interested in finding out.



FrankG said:


> The fact that your bike is a DeRosa is very interesting. What made you identify it as such? It is marked in any way?


The frame has the typical heart cut-outs and under the Chiorda decals, you can see a De Rosa decal. 



FrankG said:


> Pietro Piezzalunga, longtime mechanic for the Salvarani and Bianchi-Campagnolo teams explained to me that the Chiorda team bikes were, in fact, made in Bianchi's Reparto Corse.


I actually know two former Salvarani mechanics and they both say that not a single team bike was made by Chiorda. The riders were apparently given reasonable freedom in choosing their framebuilder of choice and often went to a builder local to where they lived. 

Lastly, yes, I do still have the bike.


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## FrankG

As regards to the brakes, the same photograph (on Pages 94-95 of the Gimondi book) shows sidepull brakes with characteristic Universal levers. A later photo showing Gimondi winning the 1966 Giro di Lombardia also shows sidepull brakes. However, earlier in the book, photos taken during the 1966 Giro d' Italia show Gimondi using a bike with centerpull brakes, obviously Universals. So fitting a set of Universal center-pulls would also be correct, I suppose. Could Universal have made the "68" brakes available to the pro-teams in late 1966?

There were no bottle bosses on the 1966 bikes from what I can tell from the photos in the book. Is there evidence then of repainting near the bottle mounts? Could the entire frame have been re-painted? Or are they otherwise attached (not brazed) bosses?

The statements by the former Salvarani team mechanics are interesting. I suppose this could agree with Mr. Piazzalunga's comments (I would take anything this gentleman says as absolute fact, BTW) assuming the frames were actually fabricated at various framebuilders (including DeRosa) and then painted and assembled at the Bianchi Reparto Corse. They most likely were not assembled at the Chiorda factory, for sure. Makes sense to me. 

Anyway, please enjoy the bike! And thanks for posting it here. It's a great piece of cycling history. Unfortunately, it looks a bit too big for me (I need a 50 or 51 c-c), or otherwise I would be trying to get you to sell it! (My first real racing bike was a Chiorda "Magni" that was in the same "Azzura" blue) Salvarani riders wrote much of the history of pro-cycle racing in the sixties and seventies, with "corriedore" like Gimondi, Adorni, Altig, Motta Goodefroot, Panizza and others. Truly one of the "big" teams of pro cycling!


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## dnalsaam

FrankG said:


> As regards to the brakes, the same photograph (on Pages 94-95 of the Gimondi book) shows sidepull brakes with characteristic Universal levers. A later photo showing Gimondi winning the 1966 Giro di Lombardia also shows sidepull brakes. However, earlier in the book, photos taken during the 1966 Giro d' Italia show Gimondi using a bike with centerpull brakes, obviously Universals. So fitting a set of Universal center-pulls would also be correct, I suppose. Could Universal have made the "68" brakes available to the pro-teams in late 1966?


The Super 68 brakes were in many ways little more than a reissue of the Mod.51 brakes that continued to be sold. They could easily have used Mod.51 brakes, however these tended to have a longer reach rear (the primary difference between the mod.51 and Super 68).



FrankG said:


> There were no bottle bosses on the 1966 bikes from what I can tell from the photos in the book. Is there evidence then of repainting near the bottle mounts? Could the entire frame have been re-painted? Or are they otherwise attached (not brazed) bosses?


The paint on the down tube is not perfectly identical to the rest of the frame, so it might have been locally repainted around the braze-ons.



FrankG said:


> The statements by the former Salvarani team mechanics are interesting. I suppose this could agree with Mr. Piazzalunga's comments (I would take anything this gentleman says as absolute fact, BTW) assuming the frames were actually fabricated at various framebuilders (including DeRosa) and then painted and assembled at the Bianchi Reparto Corse. They most likely were not assembled at the Chiorda factory, for sure. Makes sense to me.
> 
> Anyway, please enjoy the bike! And thanks for posting it here. It's a great piece of cycling history. Unfortunately, it looks a bit too big for me (I need a 50 or 51 c-c), or otherwise I would be trying to get you to sell it! (My first real racing bike was a Chiorda "Magni" that was in the same "Azzura" blue) Salvarani riders wrote much of the history of pro-cycle racing in the sixties and seventies, with "corriedore" like Gimondi, Adorni, Altig, Motta Goodefroot, Panizza and others. Truly one of the "big" teams of pro cycling!


I formerly owned one of Panizza's bikes (built by Marnati, who confirmed as much, but funnily enough labeled as a Masi following a repaint by Alberto). I also own a 1974 Colnago that belonged to Franco Bitossi, then of the SCIC team. This bike has been confirmed by Ernesto to be authentic and still has the personalized stem.


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## Vincent Kluwe-Yorck

Compliments, Frank! How enlightening to have someone in the forum, who is able to give us such insights into the history of cycling! Thank you very very much indeed.


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## mr_macgee

Don't mean to rise this thread back from the ashes but it's about the same subject.

I have a repainted frame with Chiorda Gimondi frame set in orange, 55cm CC square, 56cm ST-CT. Chainstay 420mm, rear axle width: 122mm. Both fork & rear ends are campy.

Need help identifying this frame if it's truly a Salvarani pro team frame and 2nd who made the frame? De Rosa, Bianchi....etc? The team owner was also the owner of Bianchi allowed the team riders to have there frames made by the builder of there choice (As written previously above by another poster).

The frame seems to be well built with nice lug work much nicer than the ones sold in the US, a lot of the lug work has hearts on them and BB lug has three large holes drilled in the bottom of it. The Frame was repainted by M/B (?) in '98 and the decals sadly appear to be on the outside but the seatstay end caps have them engraved/raised with Chiorda. The weight of frame and fork is 2.5kg. I'm trying also to figure out which year it came from as it has bottle bosses on the frame but nothing else except for the cable boss at the end of the chainstay. The bottle bosses could have been added during the repaint.

Any clew to who made the lugs? The inside fork tangs are very long and with a heart cut-out as well.

I appreciate any info or insight on this frameset. Thanks


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## dnalsaam

mr_macgee said:


> Don't mean to rise this thread back from the ashes but it's about the same subject.
> 
> I have a repainted frame with Chiorda Gimondi frame set in orange, 55cm CC square, 56cm ST-CT. Chainstay 420mm, rear axle width: 122mm. Both fork ends are campy
> 
> Need help identifying this frame if it's truly a Salvarani pro team frame and 2nd who made the frame? De Rosa, Bianchi....etc?
> 
> The frame seems to be well built with nice lug work much nicer than the ones sold in the US, a lot of the lug work has hearts on them and BB lug has three large holes drilled in the bottom of it. The Frame was repainted by M/B (?) in '98 and the decals sadly appear to be on the outside but the seatstays have them engraved/raised with Chiorda. The weight of frame and fork is 2.5kg. I'm trying also to figure out which year it came from as it has bottle bosses on the frame but nothing else except for the cable boss at the end of the chainstay. The bottle bosses could have been added during the repaint.
> 
> I appreciate any info or insight on this frameset. Thanks


It looks like a stock Chiorda frame to me and has nothing to do with the Salvarani team. It is not a pro quality frame from what I can see. I hope that it rides well, which is far more important than any builder info.


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## mr_macgee

dnalsaam said:


> It looks like a stock Chiorda frame to me and has nothing to do with the Salvarani team. It is not a pro quality frame from what I can see. I hope that it rides well, which is far more important than any builder info.



Thanks for the quick reply. From what you can see may I ask why you think it's has nothing to do with the Salvarani team and not a pro quality frame? After doing some searching, it looks very different to the typical Chiorda factory frame and comes with Campy forkends and drop outs which I didn't think the typical Chiorda came with. I will admit that the seat clamp looks a bit light/chinsy. I have a Colnago Mexico and some other vintage custom quality bikes (Merckx, RIH, Gazelle, Davidson, custom Bontrager) saved from my past racing days and this frame looks and feels just as nice, same weight. I think the frame saver paint inside and the unsteady white detail paint perhaps hides a bit of the quality but I could be wrong.

I agree with you about just riding the bikes, I already have a bunch of bikes built up and figure I would do some homework on this frame as it's been sitting in the attic for the past 5 yrs and a friend was asking about it.

Cheers and thanks for the help


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## dnalsaam

The seat lug ears are the first major indication that we are not dealing with a true pro level bike. Then teh BB shell is not quite as nice as other elements of the frame. Lastly, the frame seems to be too new to be a Salvarani frame.


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## dnalsaam

Speak of the devil and look what comes out of thr woodwork:

http://cgi.ebay.com/CHIORDA-GIMONDI...20660607047?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item4aa8dc9047

It seems to be teh same bike as yours.


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## mr_macgee

Wow, very nice work finding it. I only searched eBay two days ago for info but didn't see this one, looks newly listed.

You are right, it does look awfully similar except that it does have the full amount of braze-on's. The seatclamp looks different and the forks too but hard to tell in photo's. 

The ebay bike has also been re-painted 10yrs ago so either mine were removed or his was added or they come from different years (not likely), it would be strange for my bosses to be removed but leave the one and only cable boss on the chainstay on my bike. My orig. MKM (UK) frame from '72 only had one cable boss on the chainstay as well.

I did find a pic of a Chiorda Pro bike that is quite similar to mine on Classic Rendezvous. http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Chiorda_bik1.htm looks very similar but photo's don't show enough detail.

The ebay seller does have a nice Merckx for sale as well.

Thanks for the post, that was very serendipitous and informative.

Cheers


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## Vincent Kluwe-Yorck

I'm sure Frank knows better. I would say definitely no De Rosa. As far as I know De Rosa never used that lug set. Let's wait for Franks say.


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## mr_macgee

Sadly FrankG has not been around for years but would be nice to hear from him.


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## FrankG1

Hi guys! I'm back. I had some issues with my account which is why I am now FrankG1.
Regarding your Chiorda Gimondi frame, I would say that what you have is a production frame from the Chiorda factory. Chiorda made the Gimondi model in the early 1970s and your frame has details consistent with this era. Portofino Imports imported Chiorda bicycles into the US during the 1960s and early 1970s during the “bike boom” years. The models available at that time were the “Professional” Model 1050, Columbus DB tubing with full Campagnolo Record/Nuovo Record equipment including brakes ($500! - a princely sum in 1972!!), the “Gimondi” Model 1053 ($200), high tensile DB tubing, Campagnolo Gran Sport/Record, Universal brakes, the Model 030 and 031 ($150), high tensile tubes, Campagnolo Valentino, Universal or Balilla Brakes. These were the higher end models. Chiorda also imported many other low-end bikes (less than $100) to capitalize on the bike boom craze which featured “gas pipe” frames, "Pletcher" plates instead of tubular seat stay bridges and stamped and welded head tubes with fake lugs – the lugs were actually formed (stamped) with the head tube as one piece, folded and welded and then brazed into the top and down tubes. Components on these bikes would have been steel rims, Balilla brakes with gum hoods (some with dual levers a la Schwinn), pressed steel hubs and steel bars and stem. The derailleurs would have been either Campagnolo Valentino or Simplex Prestige. Chiorda also produced a full range of bikes, including men’s and women’s city bikes and the famous “Dingo” and “Safari” pieghevole, or collapsible bikes with small wheels. The Gimondi frame looks to be a nicely brazed DB frame, very similar to the “Professional” model. The differences may be in the type of tubing used - straight gauge vs. DB, number of butted tubes, brand of tubing Falk vs. Columbus etc. These bikes would have been produced at the Chiorda factory in Vigano San Marino near Bergamo owned by Bergamo industrialist Angelo Trapletti. There is little available regarding the history of this brand, but the following is what I know. The bikes and company were named for Ettore Noris Chiorda, a Bergamasque rider who participated in the 1922 Giro d’Italia along with Guido Bernasconi, another Bergamo racer. Chiorda started building bikes at the turn of the century, first in Albino, then in Bergamo on the Via Palma Vecchio and finally at the Trapletti factory in Vigano San Marino. The head tube badge depicts the campanile in the Piazza Vittorio Veneto in Bergamo (corner of Via Roma and Galleria Santa Marta). Trapletti also owned Bianchi at this time and moved the production from Milan to Treviglio. Chiorda produced a high end model in the 1960s called “Magni” after Fiorenzo Magni, the great Milanese rider. Felice Gimondi won the 1965 Tour de France on a bike marked as a Magni, but whether this bike was actually built in Trapletti’s factory is another thing. The bike can be seen, along with other of Gimondi’s historic rides at the Museo del Felagname (Carpentry Museum) of Tino Sana in Almenno San Bartolomeo near Bergamo. It has many characteristics of a Cinelli, although it does not have the sloping fork crown, having a flat fork crown that characterized all of Gimondi’s bikes, including his Bianchis. Apparantly, it has been stated that NONE of the Salvarani team bikes were built by the Chiorda factory. I know of three extant bikes, confirmed to be Salvarani team issue. One was built by DeRosa, one by Colnago and the third by Masi. All featured Campagnolo fork ends , plain Prugnat style lugs, flat fork crowns and had the details associated with their respective builders. All were painted metallic blue with white CHIORDA block lettering on the down tube and seat tube. They had a silver foil head badge featuring the Bergamo campanile logo. No other markings, such as tubing decals etc. could be seen. Components were Campagnolo Record/Nuovo Record befitting the time frame. My first racing bike was a Chiorda Magni, purchased at Mangano’s in Brooklyn, New York. It was pretty much SOA at the time and had a certain “cache” with the lesser known Italian marque. When the bike boom hit and Chiorda dumped their cheap department store bikes in the US, the reputation of the brand took a nose dive. The better shops in NYC wouldn’t touch them with a ten-foot pole, and some even refused to work on them, as the components were ill matched and would not stay in adjustment, making for customer dissatisfaction. Frankly, the lower end bikes were really no worse than many of the bike boom models then available, and Chiorda did make the reasonably nice higher end models, of which your Gimondi frame is a fine example. The brand’s reputation was somewhat better in Italy, especially around the Bergamo area, where the brand enjoyed a long history. Bianchi eventually acquired the Chiorda brand and currently owns the rights to the name. Interestingly, Bianchi has recently produced a lower end welded aluminum racing model with Shimano 2300 drive train branded first as a Legnano “Gran Premio” and most recently as a “Chiorda” when a suit preventing Bianchi from using the Legnano brand was upheld. It is not painted the historic metallic blue however, being black and white, and is actually quite a generic bike probably produced by Giant in Taiwan as is most of Bianchi’s non-Reparto Corsa models. Alas, time marches on.


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