# Where are the Tour contenders?



## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Where has Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Cunego, etc. been during the classics? 
Man I miss days when Armstrong was racing Flanders, LBL, Amstel, etc. As long as these guys refuse to race in the Spring, they'll never be considered in the same league as Armstrong.


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## mquetel (Apr 2, 2006)

Jesse D Smith said:


> ...As long as these guys refuse to race in the Spring, they'll never be considered in the same league as Armstrong.


That's funny. Many people would say that Armstrong raced the least of any Tour contender/winner including everyone you mentioned (with the possible exception of Ullrich). By the way, Basso, Cunego and Vino already have wins under their belt this year. 

Having said that, It's not likely anyone will be in the same league as Armstrong in the area he specialized in.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*They are...*



Jesse D Smith said:


> Where has Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Cunego, etc. been during the classics?
> Man I miss days when Armstrong was racing Flanders, LBL, Amstel, etc. As long as these guys refuse to race in the Spring, they'll never be considered in the same league as Armstrong.


Well, some of them are currently preparing to ride the Giro, and don't want to risk injury riding the Classics, and really, the races don't suit them very well. Some are training for other stage races, and concentrating on races that suit their racing profile.

Armstrong did race some of these races in the past, but he never did very many of them. Aside from that, bar anyone winning 7 Tour de Frances in a row, nobody will be in the same league as Armstrong as far as Tour de France riders, ever. Until someone wins 8 in a row, and that's a tall order.

PS: Armstrong after he changed over to riding the Tour to win, didn't ride very many classics races after that. There were a couple of shots at Amstel, and a couple of other rides in support of Hincapie. Pre cancer he did win Fleche Wallone, but mainly he stuck to spring shorter stage races, and not many of them at all. To claim he rode in the Spring is just pure fantasy. He made selected appearances. And not very often.


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## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

They are not shown on OLN doesn't mean they are not racing. Lance takes the cake when it comes to focusing on one race and ignoring the rest. Don't get me wrong, Lance is the man but he just doesn't do much non-TDF racing.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Where has Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Cunego, etc. been during the classics?
> Man I miss days when Armstrong was racing Flanders, LBL, Amstel, etc. As long as these guys refuse to race in the Spring, they'll never be considered in the same league as Armstrong.


Are you freaking serious? Is it still April fool's?? The only Classic Armstrong had a shot at winning was Amstel. He couldn't even win that.

Armstrong is the finest TDF rider to date. No one on that list is even close to the 'same league as Armstrong'. Not until they win 7 TDFs. But let's leave it at that. Let's not pretend how well-rounded a rider he was cause he showed up for some classics.

If your inquiry is serious,
Basso won Paris-Nice this year. Basso is starting the Giro in two weeks.
Vino is going to defend his L-B-L title next week.
Cunego is starting the Giro in two weeks. He will not race TDF.
Ullrich is riding the Giro in two weeks but just to train for the TDF.

francois


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Where has Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Cunego, etc. been during the classics?
> Man I miss days when Armstrong was racing Flanders, LBL, Amstel, etc. As long as these guys refuse to race in the Spring, they'll never be considered in the same league as Armstrong.


Last time LA *raced *a classic was Amstel in 2001. The closest he's come to winning a classic is 1996 when he was second in LBL. 

Basso on the other hand is regularily in the top 10 of LBL and races in Lombardy in October, a month that Armstrong has not been seen racing in for nigh on a decade!

BTW Francois, Mr Landis won Paris Nice. Basso won the Criterium Intenational.


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## Vel07 (Oct 28, 2005)

> Basso won Paris-Nice this year. Basso is starting the Giro in two weeks.


Basso won CI. I thought Landis won PN?


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

francois said:


> Are you freaking serious? Is it still April fool's?? The only Classic Armstrong had a shot at winning was Amstel. He couldn't even win that.
> 
> Armstrong is the finest TDF rider to date. No one on that list is even close to the 'same league as Armstrong'. Not until they win 7 TDFs. But let's leave it at that. Let's not pretend how well-rounded a rider he was cause he showed up for some classics.
> 
> ...


I won't ruin the opportunity for you to do your own research, but here's a hint. Lance has a classic victory and was a serious contender in others. We've had many people post his race schedule and palmares. You should make it a sticky since so many people need to refer to it so often.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

Jesse D Smith said:


> I won't ruin the opportunity for you to do your own research, but here's a hint. Lance has a classic victory and was a serious contender in others. We've had many people post his race schedule and palmares. You should make it a sticky since so many people need to refer to it so often.


Yes, LA won San Sebastian and even the Fleche Wallon, but that was BEFORE he was a TdF contender. When he was a Tour contender he came close to winning the Amstel twice, but that's not even a real classic. The last four years of his career he performed like wet poo in any classic he entered. Your point again?


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> Last time LA *raced *a classic was Amstel in 2001. The closest he's come to winning a classic is 1996 when he was second in LBL.
> 
> Basso on the other hand is regularily in the top 10 of LBL and races in Lombardy in October, a month that Armstrong has not been seen racing in for nigh on a decade!
> 
> BTW Francois, Mr Landis won Paris Nice. Basso won the Criterium Intenational.


Armstrong was second at Amstel in 1999 and 2001, as well as 4th in 2002.
Second is as "close to winning" as they come in my book, no?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Jesse D Smith said:


> I won't ruin the opportunity for you to do your own research, but here's a hint. Lance has a classic victory and was a serious contender in others. We've had many people post his race schedule and palmares. You should make it a sticky since so many people need to refer to it so often.


Classic in my book is one of the monuments - 

Milan-San Remo
Ronde Van Vlaandren
Paris Roubaix
Liege-Bastogne-Liege
Giro di Lombardia
Amstel is a classic but not a Monument (unless you're Dutch!). Fleche Wallone and San Sebastian aren't really classics. Indeed Fleche has always been called a semi-classic.

LA has never won any of the monuments. He's come close in LBL a decade ago, and won Amstel 11 years ago.

Since his comeback he didn't really target the classics and was never in good enough condition, so we'll never know.


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## mquetel (Apr 2, 2006)

francois said:


> ...Basso won Paris-Nice this year.


Criterium International, actually. Still a very good win, though.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Vel07 said:


> Basso won CI. I thought Landis won PN?


I neglected to include Landis in the list of Tour contenders. My mistake. He's taken Paris-Nice and the Tour of California. He's shown he can race early on with success, unlike the others. He should be remembered along with Horner as a contenders who have great results BEFORE the big shows instead of just showing up to prep for the Tour.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

*chock full'o qualifiers*



ultimobici said:


> Classic in my book is one of the monuments -
> 
> Milan-San Remo
> Ronde Van Vlaandren
> ...



Man, the list of what's considered a classic gets shorter and shorter every year. 
No doubt if Lance had won any of that short list, the naysayers would amend it accordingly.


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## mikeman (Sep 17, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> Last time LA *raced *a classic was Amstel in 2001. The closest he's come to winning a classic is 1996 when he was second in LBL.
> 
> Basso on the other hand is regularily in the top 10 of LBL and races in Lombardy in October, a month that Armstrong has not been seen racing in for nigh on a decade!
> 
> BTW Francois, Mr Landis won Paris Nice. Basso won the Criterium Intenational.


Wrong! He raced the Tour of Flanders in support of George after 2001. I would have looked it up but you are so obviously wrong that I did not take the time to go back and check the exact date. I think it was 2003.


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## mikeman (Sep 17, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> Last time LA *raced *a classic was Amstel in 2001. The closest he's come to winning a classic is 1996 when he was second in LBL.
> 
> Basso on the other hand is regularily in the top 10 of LBL and races in Lombardy in October, a month that Armstrong has not been seen racing in for nigh on a decade!
> 
> BTW Francois, Mr Landis won Paris Nice. Basso won the Criterium Intenational.


While not an Armstrong apologist, Lance raced Flanders in 2002 in support of George and finished 59th at 2:59 behind the winner Andrea Tafi.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Man, the list of what's considered a classic gets shorter and shorter every year.
> No doubt if Lance had won any of that short list, the naysayers would amend it accordingly.[/QUOTE
> 
> The biggest knock against Lance is that he was probably capable of so much more yet we will never know. At least prior to his last few seasons when he didn't get in shape until closer to the Tour he was a protagonist at Amstel. I'd like to see Basso take the Giro and Tour this year if for nothing else to show that if you have the ability there is no need to make the Tour the end all and be all of your season.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

mikeman said:


> Wrong! He raced the Tour of Flanders in support of George after 2001. I would have looked it up but you are so obviously wrong that I did not take the time to go back and check the exact date. I think it was 2003.


Bad intel! But he didn't even show up in 2003 & 2004. 

As far as the list of Monuments is concerned, it hasn't changed in years. MSR, RVV, PR, LBL & Lombardy. The list hasn't shrunk and it isn't going to grow.


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## Vel07 (Oct 28, 2005)

I hate to ask since I am a fan of his.
But wasnt it the 2003 Dauphine that LA tried so hard to win and lost to Mayo, then almost lost the tour cause he blew his load in the Dauphine? Then after that he never tried to win another race prior to the TDF. (exception 2004 TDG)


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*don't forget 03*

when LA had a good shot at winning L-B-L but wound up in a break with 2 wheelsuckers.
he was strong enough to win but should have slowed for Axel as he would have raced with him vs sit on.


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## mquetel (Apr 2, 2006)

Vel07 said:


> I hate to ask since I am a fan of his.
> But wasnt it the 2003 Dauphine that LA tried so hard to win and lost to Mayo, then almost lost the tour cause he blew his load in the Dauphine? Then after that he never tried to win another race prior to the TDF. (exception 2004 TDG)


No, Lance won the Dauphine in 2003, Mayo was second. In 2004, Mayo won and Lance was 4th.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

atpjunkie said:


> when LA had a good shot at winning L-B-L but wound up in a break with 2 wheelsuckers.
> he was strong enough to win but should have slowed for Axel as he would have raced with him vs sit on.


LA's got bad 1-day tactics it seems. Everyone knows he should have won Amstel 2001. It was just appalling watching him 'give up' that race. He pulled Dekker for what seemed like the last 5-10k.










Race report is here:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/apr01/amstel/results.shtml

francois


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

francois said:


> LA's got bad 1-day tactics it seems. Everyone knows he should have won Amstel 2001. It was just appalling watching him 'give up' that race. He pulled Dekker for what seemed like the last 5-10k.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IIRC, Dekker worked with him despite his DS's instructions not to. It was Boogerd who sat on him for like 20km (because Rabo had Zberg in the chase group) and then outsprinted him for the win one year.


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## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

One of the biggest myths is Lance riding in support of George. HE NEVER DID. 
The Flanders he pulled in a non critical section of the race and only for a few minutes.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Dwayne Barry said:


> IIRC, Dekker worked with him despite his DS's instructions not to. It was Boogerd who sat on him for like 20km (because Rabo had Zberg in the chase group) and then outsprinted him for the win one year.


Aaaaahhh right, my old friend Boogerd the courageous one. What year was that??

francois


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Jesse D SmithHe should be remembered along with Horner as a contenders who have great results BEFORE the big shows instead of just showing up to prep for the Tour.[/QUOTE said:


> I don't think anyone considers Horner a contender for a Grand Tour do they?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

francois said:


> Aaaaahhh right, my old friend Boogerd the courageous one. What year was that??
> 
> francois


Not sure, it was a year or two before Dekker beat him.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yeah Boogered sucked wheel there*

Dekker wound up in a shouting match with his DS who was saying in Dutch.
"Wait for Boogered so he can wheel suck"
which Dekker responded "F that I have as good a chance of taking second or better as him"
made me appreciate Dekker. 
I think Boogered's wheelsuck to victory strategy worked once so he stuck with it.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yeah Boogered*

wheelsucked and beat him in a photo finish, was literally inches. Dekker worked with him and cleanly outsprinted him.


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## mquetel (Apr 2, 2006)

1999 was the year...


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I don't think anyone considers Horner a contender for a Grand Tour do they?


Oh yes... Horner's mom.

Horner and the Lotto team are clearly focused to work for Cadel in the TDF. Yes Cadel the Mountain BIKER as Paul Sherwin says. They're saying Cadel's really good in camp. Anyway, he's got a great lieutenant in Horner.

francois


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

mquetel said:


> 1999 was the year...


Right!!

Here's the live report.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/apr99/amstel99results.html#report

Nice excuse from Boogerd at the end of the article.

francois


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*"it's not my style to follow"*

hmmm,isn't that what he's done every A-G since?


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

I can't believe Boogerd actually said that. I would prefer that it wasn't his style to prevaricate. 

Next he'll start referring to himself in third person: "Boogerd does not work for others, others work for Boogerd. Well, except Rebellin.."


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## edraket (Oct 29, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> I think Boogered's wheelsuck to victory strategy worked once so he stuck with it.


Moron,

That was the ONLY time I ever saw Boogerd suck wheel for any length of time. He is al-ways ready to work in any break. People love having him there: he works hard and he can't sprint.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

edraket said:


> Moron, ....


Booyah! Pass the popcorn. Cage match at high noon. 

francois


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## mikeman (Sep 17, 2005)

francois said:


> Aaaaahhh right, my old friend Boogerd the courageous one. What year was that??
> 
> francois


It was 1999, where Boogerd did nothing to work with Lance. He sucked his wheel to the finish and won by the width of a tire. If you saw him yesterday, he did the same kind of work. Nothing until the end. Schleck, Wesemann and Bettini really raced and only the first two made the podium. Boogerd is a loser.


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## edraket (Oct 29, 2005)

mikeman said:


> He sucked his wheel to the finish and won by the width of a tire.


So did Bruyneel with Indurain in the Tour of '95.



> Boogerd is a loser


Well, he's not a winner, I give you that.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*double Moron (had another post drop)*

Johan got to sit on, as Miguel was more concerned with overall than the stage. that's tour tactics which is completely different from classics. Hincapie sat on in last years Tour victory, again that is Tour strategy. Just like the pirate got a nice tow up Ventoux by Armstrong. Apples to Oranges, if you try to draw this as a comparision it shows your race ignorance.

Boogered has something like 14 classics podiums, 1 win, 2 stage wins (TdF), Paris Nice and some smaller stage race victories in 12 freakin years. He sucked wheel this year at Amstel, he sucked wheel the last 2 and got pipped by Rebellin and DiLuca, if he wants to win one of these races he needs to make an attack a la Schleck or Bettini. Paolo was a marked man this Amstel (was pre race favorite) yet he attacked to link up with wessemann and when that didn't work still tried to bridge to Schleck but hardley anyone (including Boogered) would pull through. Michael plays it safe and gets top 3's. I'd rather he went for it all and had his heartbroken a la Schleck in this years MSR or last years Zurich or Lombardy.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Jesse D Smith said:
> 
> 
> > Man, the list of what's considered a classic gets shorter and shorter every year.
> ...


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> Classic in my book is one of the monuments -
> 
> Milan-San Remo
> Ronde Van Vlaandren
> ...


In my book Amstel Gold or even Fleche Wallone are much more of a classic than Giro Di Lombardia.

It's De Ronde Van Vlaanderen, as long as we use native language (as opposed to "Tour of Flanders"), and Armstrong never won Amstel, I think.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

MaRider said:


> In my book Amstel Gold or even Fleche Wallone are much more of a classic than Giro Di Lombardia.
> 
> It's De Ronde Van Vlaanderen, as long as we use native language (as opposed to "Tour of Flanders"), and Armstrong never won Amstel, I think.


Our opinions won't change the Monuments. Amstel & Fleche aren't among them.

OK, LA won Fleche, not Amstel. But my point remains, LA focused almost exclusively on the TDF. If he turned up at any of the classics, he was rarely in the hunt, and when he was in at the end he was found lacking. Great Tour rider, the most successful we'll ever see. But as far as the classics are concerned, he's not all that. Not because he didn't win any, but because he didn't really ever turn up.

Every other tour winner has put in a proper season. Until LA that is. He only actually raced until the end of the Tour. If you were lucky he rode the SF Gran Prix. 

Just because one major rider starts narrowing their objectives down, and by definition their season, doesn't make it right. How would it be if that logic was applied in other sports? A baseball team playing only the final of the World Series, because their chances are better if they only play one match and their rivals play a full season?

Pantani, Indurain, Hinault and Lemond all rode the Giro and Tour to win. All but Lemond succeeded, and he came close in 86. 

This attitude that the Tour is the only race and to attempt the double is wrong in my opinion. Not that long ago Marino Lejaretta used to ride all three Grand Tours and finish well in all of them.

With LA gone, maybe the collateral damage that came with his legacy can be reversed. If Basso can pull off a win in one or both of the GT's he attempts it will be a start. So Good Luck Ivan!


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> Our opinions won't change the Monuments. Amstel & Fleche aren't among them.
> 
> OK, LA won Fleche, not Amstel. But my point remains, LA focused almost exclusively on the TDF. If he turned up at any of the classics, he was rarely in the hunt, and when he was in at the end he was found lacking. Great Tour rider, the most successful we'll ever see. But as far as the classics are concerned, he's not all that. Not because he didn't win any, but because he didn't really ever turn up.
> 
> ...


No racer in Lance's era put in the effort and/or had the success at the spring races/Giro as Hinault, Lemond, and Indurain. That was before I was really into pro racing. I missed out on that. 
Fall's TOL has lost about all it's luster except for riders trying to salvage a season, looking for a new contract, or those trying to sew up the World Cup. 
Pantani shouldn't even be included in this conversation. The greatest pure climber of our time shouldn't be expected to show up at PR or TOF just to get bounced off the saddle on cobbles or mix it up with sprinters. 
It looks like Basso and Ullrich are taking the "Tour only" strategy to a further extreme. 
So many Lance critics were looking forward to this year when once again, Tour contenders were supposed to be free to race a full schedule, without having to worry about contending with King Lance in June. 
This whole thread was inspired by my dissappointment at not seeing them. Hell, I remember seeing Vino dominate the spring a couple years ago. I'm a fan of his style, but he and Jan are the most glaring examples of the collateral damage you brought up. I get OLN and haven't seen them. As a fan, I'd like to see them more. 
I'd like to see Vino, Jan, and Basso battle it out in LBL. have the [email protected] to challenge eachother BEFORE the Tour. I want to see them battle each other for the sake of that day's win, not just to show who has the best pre-Tour form. We'll see if they intentionally avoid oneanother in the shorter stage races. Lance scheduled, raced, and won these on his terms.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

fastfullback said:


> I can't believe Boogerd actually said that. I would prefer that it wasn't his style to prevaricate.
> 
> Next he'll start referring to himself in third person: "Boogerd does not work for others, others work for Boogerd. Well, except Rebellin.."


Musseeuw talked like that, "the man Musseeuw" when he was talking about himself. Ugh.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> Johan got to sit on, as Miguel was more concerned with overall than the stage. that's tour tactics which is completely different from classics. Hincapie sat on in last years Tour victory, again that is Tour strategy. Just like the pirate got a nice tow up Ventoux by Armstrong. Apples to Oranges, if you try to draw this as a comparision it shows your race ignorance.
> 
> Boogered has something like 14 classics podiums, 1 win, 2 stage wins (TdF), Paris Nice and some smaller stage race victories in 12 freakin years. He sucked wheel this year at Amstel, he sucked wheel the last 2 and got pipped by Rebellin and DiLuca, if he wants to win one of these races he needs to make an attack a la Schleck or Bettini. Paolo was a marked man this Amstel (was pre race favorite) yet he attacked to link up with wessemann and when that didn't work still tried to bridge to Schleck but hardley anyone (including Boogered) would pull through. Michael plays it safe and gets top 3's. I'd rather he went for it all and had his heartbroken a la Schleck in this years MSR or last years Zurich or Lombardy.


Boogerd has Erik Breukink in the car giving him instructions, or sometimes even Joop Zoetemelk. Now there's a wheelsucker if ever there was one. If they let him do as he pleases he'll attack mindlessly and keep looking over his shoulder to see if they'll catch him. It's funny how his reputation here is diametrically opposed to his reputation in Belgium (not counting Holland for obvious reasons).


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> Johan got to sit on, as Miguel was more concerned with overall than the stage. that's tour tactics which is completely different from classics.


Sorry, but Indurain had attacked on a _pretty much dead flat road stage_ as a response to criticism that he won the Tour only in the TTs. Nothing to do with making time on his rivals for GC. Bruyneel's wheel suck that day had precious little to do with Tour tactics either and everything to do with not doing his share of work because he wanted an easy stage win. He took the win but the glory went to Indurain. A really disgraceful display, like that of Hincapie - you could tell who was in the team car.

Sorry to rant but Bruyneel's display that day was a bad joke.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

MaRider said:


> Dwayne Barry said:
> 
> 
> > Of the two guys with equal ability, one attempting Giro/Tour double, another one doing only Tour, the Tour-only guy will win. In order to be able to stay multi-focused in this day and age one has to be a LOT better than everyone else.
> ...


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

rogger said:


> It's funny how his reputation here is diametrically opposed to his reputation in Belgium (not counting Holland for obvious reasons).


I didn't realize Boogerd had a reputation even in the US as a wheelsucker? I was just commenting on this year's Amstel where he was relatively passive and then crossed the line acting as if he deserved better. Whereas Schleck and Weseman got where they were by taking the initiative.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Well Indurain went for a display of power*

and Johann went along for the ride, wasn't a fan either but to me (from what I remember Mig did get some time and Johann got the stage) but it did make tactical sense.
If you have a guy who for whatever reason is willing to do the lion's share and you tag along for an easy win, while he gets some extra time or whatever that's GT racing.
How many times did the gentleman work with riders in Mountain Stages and gift them the stage? Guy had a rep for doing so.
As for George's move,after the numerous times he's wound up on the short end of the tactics stick @ P-R and such (twice ganged up on by opposing squads, once mapei and Once my beloved Domo Farm Frites) it was nice to see him in the cat bird seat for once. If he hadn't won, I'd have lost all hope for him. I think that is why he had such a perplexed grin after his steerer snap at P-R this year. He finally had a 'great situation' tactically in the race he really wants and the grand dame still crushed him.

agreed about who Boogered is listening to. Dekker had the same advice, he ignored it and
won. As much as I respect Joop I think his numerous seconds as a racer is why he also has so many placings as a DS. Too cautious.

Amstel and Fleche are not Monuments. In the Spring it's 
a) MSR (IMHO the weakest of the spring monuments)
b) R-V-V
c) P-R
d) L-B-L
that's it before the Giro.


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## Stasera (Mar 6, 2006)

Jesse D Smith said:


> No racer in Lance's era put in the effort and/or had the success at the spring races/Giro as Hinault, Lemond, and Indurain. That was before I was really into pro racing. I missed out on that.
> Fall's TOL has lost about all it's luster except for riders trying to salvage a season, looking for a new contract, or those trying to sew up the World Cup.
> Pantani shouldn't even be included in this conversation. The greatest pure climber of our time shouldn't be expected to show up at PR or TOF just to get bounced off the saddle on cobbles or mix it up with sprinters.
> It looks like Basso and Ullrich are taking the "Tour only" strategy to a further extreme.
> ...


I can see your point about Ullrich and Vino (although Vino will apparently be lining up with Basso at LBL this weekend), but Basso is certainly not taking the "Tour only" strategy to a further extreme than Armstrong did. Basso is not using a "Tour only" strategy at all. He already has an important win this season with Criterium International, he's racing Fleche Wallone and LBL, and he's racing for the win in the Giro. When did Armstrong ever have a pre-Tour race program that compared to that?


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

I know he's not really a Grand Tour contender anymore, except inside his own helmet, but I've always had a bit of a liking for Stefano Garzelli for the very reasons Jesse D Smith started this thread. Even when the glow of the Giro win was still on him, he seemed to be one of those lunchpail guys who plans a full season. More than his Giro win I like him for the Mapei one-two at L-B-L.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Stasera said:


> I can see your point about Ullrich and Vino (although Vino will apparently be lining up with Basso at LBL this weekend), but Basso is certainly not taking the "Tour only" strategy to a further extreme than Armstrong did. Basso is not using a "Tour only" strategy at all. He already has an important win this season with Criterium International, he's racing Fleche Wallone and LBL, and he's racing for the win in the Giro. When did Armstrong ever have a pre-Tour race program that compared to that?


That's great that we'll see Vino and Basso this weekend. But back to Armstrong's schedule. If you want to be all inclusive, in 1996 Lance's schedule looked like this

OK, let's compare
2006 Basso
Criterium INternational
Fleche Wallone
LBL
Giro

1996 Armstrong
1st place Fleche-Wallone
1st place Tour DuPont (stage race)
1st Fresca Classic (stage race)
2nd Paris-Nice
2nd Liege Bastogne Liege
2nd GP Eddy Merckx
2nd Tour of Holland (stage race)
4th Leeds Classic
4th GP Suisse
8th GP Harelbeke
11th Milan San Remo
14th San Sebastial Classic
17th Amstel Gold
(post Tour)
6th Olympic Time Trial
12th Olympic Road Race

But to further accomodate Basso, we can only include years when either Basso or Armstrong planned on "winning" the Tour, that's no problem.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Vel07 said:


> I hate to ask since I am a fan of his.
> But wasnt it the 2003 Dauphine that LA tried so hard to win and lost to Mayo, then almost lost the tour cause he blew his load in the Dauphine? Then after that he never tried to win another race prior to the TDF. (exception 2004 TDG)


Well if he can finish 3rd in the Criterium International, 4th in Dauphne Libere, and take stages in both the Midi LIbre and Tour of Arlgarve, all without trying to win, that's pretty good.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*that is not a great comparison*

as in '96 LA was a classics racer and a Stagiare for the Tours. Need to compare LA post cancer to be accurate to Basso.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Well if he can finish 3rd in the Criterium International, 4th in Dauphne Libere, and take stages in both the Midi LIbre and Tour of Arlgarve, all without trying to win, that's pretty good.


Exactly. He probably could have accomplished so much more. He would only really ride full out in the TT and then just ride within himself in the mountains never really burying himself to go for the win. Maybe he wouldn't have been so dominant in the Tour all those years, but then again maybe he would have. The one off year he had he certainly didn't try any harder in the build up races.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

atpjunkie said:


> as in '96 LA was a classics racer and a Stagiare for the Tours. Need to compare LA post cancer to be accurate to Basso.


Absolutely agreed. 

There's a failure to communicate here.

francois


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

francois said:


> Absolutely agreed.
> 
> There's a failure to communicate here.
> 
> francois


2002
1st Midi Libre
1st Dauphne Libre
2nd Criterium International
3rd Championship of Zurich
4th Amstel Gold

2004
Tour of Algarve
Tour of Georgia
Midi Libre
Criterium International
Dauphne Libre
Tour of Murcia
Basso said last year, ""I believe that is possible to do the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France in a same season. Due to this decision, I have reduced the emphasis on other races." 
If one thinks finishing behind such cycling Gods as Francisco Vila Errandonea, Christophe Le Mevel and Alberto Ardila Cano Mauricio in the Giro trumphs a combination of other races, then Basso is the man. He simply chose to finish poorly in the Giro, basically using it as a long training race, instead of being competative in a combination of smaller stage races as Lance did. 
Lance's '96 results indicate he had two diversified careers, forming a combined success not equalled by his competitors. Basso is still working on his first.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Jesse D Smith said:


> If one thinks the Giro trumphs any other prep race, even if it means only four events, then Basso is the man.


Now this is just tiring. 'If one thinks..' Blah, blah, blah. The Giro is a grand tour. It is 3553km total and climbs over 16,000 feet in one day. The course this year is harder than the TDF with 7 uphill finishes.



Jesse D Smith said:


> But getting back to the original point, Lance's '96 results indicate he had two diversified careers while Basso is still working on his first.


Oh so now Basso needs to work on a second career?? WTF? Isn't your original point doing a better variety of races in the same year?




Jesse D Smith said:


> This year's Giro hasn't happened yet, so technically, we should wait before chalking that up for Basso.


What, is Basso gonna back out? He did the Giro last year too.

I don't mean to pick on you but you are just killing me with these posts. I'll back off now and let you be.

francois


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Jesse D Smith said:


> If one thinks finishing behind such cycling Gods as Francisco Vila Errandonea, Christophe Le Mevel and Alberto Ardila Cano Mauricio in the Giro trumphs a combination of other races, then Basso is the man. He simply chose to finish poorly in the Giro, basically using it as a long training race, instead of being competative in a combination of smaller stage races as Lance did.
> Lance's '96 results indicate he had two diversified careers, forming a combined success not equalled by his competitors. Basso is still working on his first.


Basso had one seriously bad day in the Giro last year due to illness. He lost 42' in one day, so one can but wonder at what might have been.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

francois said:


> Now this is just tiring. 'If one thinks..' Blah, blah, blah. The Giro is a grand tour. It is 3553km total and climbs over 16,000 feet in one day. The course this year is harder than the TDF with 7 uphill finishes.
> 
> 
> Oh so now Basso needs to work on a second career?? WTF? Isn't your original point doing a better variety of races in the same year?
> ...


I don't feel pick on at all. Other posters have posted accurate facts to back up their opinions. These exchanges are an opportunity for both of us to research and learn. I had to research to find out where Basso finished in the '05 Giro GC, his pre Giro schedule, and now I found out one factor that led to that placing. I underestimated some other Tour contenders spring schedules.
That said, I've posted FACTS that show how well rounded a rider Lance was with a long list of one-day wins and near-wins, both pre and post cancer effectively countering your statement denegrating his stature as a well-rounded rider. You've consistently posted inaccurate rider results. If a comparison of Lance's post-cancer schedule would be provide a more accurate comparison to Basso's, you could have done so as I have, instead of only contributing a short back-patting reply void of any useful information. 
Instead of backing off with a false sense of superiority, back off until you can take the time to come up with a more effective method of arguing your point. I'm more than receptive to that type of exchange.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*I'm sure its a typo..*



francois said:


> Are you freaking serious? Is it still April fool's?? The only Classic Armstrong had a shot at winning was Amstel. He couldn't even win that.
> 
> Armstrong is the finest TDF rider to date. No one on that list is even close to the 'same league as Armstrong'. Not until they win 7 TDFs. But let's leave it at that. Let's not pretend how well-rounded a rider he was cause he showed up for some classics.
> 
> ...



but I'd recheck your Paris-Nice results....


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

francois said:


> Basso won Paris-Nice this year. Basso is starting the Giro in two weeks.


Then Basso will definitely win the Giro because that's a good two week head start! 

Riding 2 GT in a year to me counts and takes a lot more than riding some putz short stage races and a classic or two. Lance obviously thought so too or he wouldn't have been so afraid to do it.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well Jan is supposedly 'off form'*

so if Ivan pulls the double (cross your fingers) we'll here the hugest "Doh" emanating from just outside of Austin.


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