# Team car cheapskates



## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

A 5 1/2 hour stage gives you plenty of time to think. So here's what im wondering. If you are Garmin, and you are looking for a team car to drive at slow/stop & go speeds through small towns and mountains for 8 hours + per day, all the while talking on a microphone and planning strategy..... why in Gods name do you buy a STICK!!! I feel genuinely bad for Matt White driving a manual transmission under the above circumstances. At one point he was talking on the microphone with his right hand and shifting with his left (with cell phone in lap). Man! Pony up for the automatic! I cant think of a worse scenario for a stick than TDF team car.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

More generally, I've always been impressed with the level of distracted driving going on in the race caravan. 

As a roadie, our biggest enemy is the cell phone-coffee-makeup-two kids in the back soccer mom who can't seem to stay out of the bike lane. 

As a tour rider, your biggest ally is the microphone-water bottle-race telemetry-mechanic in the back DS who somehow manages not to stack it up with the Gerolsteiner and Quickstep cars.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i noticed that, too. i wonder if they use a manual to better control accelerations and mountain roads?


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Any driver worth his salt and over the age of 10 knows that a manual transmission gives you infinitely more control of a car.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

RkFast said:


> Any driver worth his salt and over the age of 10 knows that a manual transmission gives you infinitely more control of a car.


true, but in this situation it is just one more thing to have to mess with.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

Driving in Europe often needs cars with different requirements to cars State-side. Automatics SUCK on twisty roads. There is a good reason why the vast majority of cars in Europe are stick shift.

I can just imagine how bad that last rental I picked up would be over there.....a Ford Taurus whose mission was to constantly hunt for the 'right' gear. I can just imagine it downshifting half way through a fast corner. Or worse still: upshifting while braking into a corner. Uggghh.


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## CoffeeBean2 (Aug 6, 2005)

I seem to remember I read somewhere that the team cars are supplied by the sponsor - in this case, Skoda. Of course, my memory has been known to be faulty every once in a while...


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Automatics are rare in Europe. Most drivers like to have more control over the car.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> Automatics are rare in Europe. Most drivers like to have more control over the car.


Plus gas is even more expensive than in the US, so the couple extra mpg of a manual are worth it.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

After 20 years of driving only manual transmission cars, I bought an automatic a few years ago. I now live on a ridge and drive switchbacks up and down every day. I'd really much rather have a manual transmission.

Even on slight inclines I notice the car never shifts when I would, and I prefer being able to downshift to help me slow down. I'll never buy another automatic.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

I can't even imagine what an automatic would do going up the ADH at 15mph or so beyond causing the occupants of the car to empty the contents of their stomach on the dashboard.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

when I was in germany for a month i searched for an auto car every single, car, truck, van, anything was all manual....

probably CAN'T get any auto if they wanted one...which I doubt they want one.:thumbsup: 

Chad


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Every time I see Matt White, he looks exactly like Bill Pullman in the hilarious movie "Ruthless People."


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## Uprwstsdr (Jul 17, 2002)

The question is why is Matt White of any of the other DS's driving at all? wouldn't be easier if there were a driver and the DS's sat in the passenger seat and focused solely on the race?


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

Nimitz said:


> when I was in germany for a month i searched for an auto car every single, car, truck, van, anything was all manual....
> 
> probably CAN'T get any auto if they wanted one...which I doubt they want one.:thumbsup:
> 
> Chad


I grew up in a European city. I recall when I was around 9 or 10, a new car arrived in a friend's driveway. His Dad had just brought home a new Datsun (IIRC). It was an automatic. We all thought his Dad was really weird.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

I'm always amazed at the driving in the caravan.... Did you see the team car trying to hand off a rain cape to one of the breakaway riders on stage 15 (can't remember which one, not Garmin though) on that narrow road flying down hill!! 

And... could you imagine if the Lincoln-Navigators would have made it to the tour.. and the giant Lincoln-Navigator on the narrow French roads in the caravan! 

I would prefer a stick as well.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Uprwstsdr said:


> The question is why is Matt White of any of the other DS's driving at all? wouldn't be easier if there were a driver and the DS's sat in the passenger seat and focused solely on the race?


As someone who gets carsick easily, it's a lot better being in the driver's seat vs. passenger seat. Back seat is the worst, of course.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Automatics are for grandmas--- and seriously, if you take your driving test with an automatic, you get a special license where you can only drive an automatic. A dealer would probably have to special order an automatic--- especially for a little Skoda.


Funny thing-- we were in Spain a few weeks ago, and called Avis to rent a car and asked for something roomy for five people. They said not to worry, they had a large car for us. We ended up in a Seat Leon--- which I assure you is not large car. Of course it was manual. Can you even rent a stick in the US?



bigpinkt said:


> Automatics are rare in Europe. Most drivers like to have more control over the car.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

AJL said:


> Plus gas is even more expensive than in the US, so the couple extra mpg of a manual are worth it.


That's old school thinking. With modern automatic transmissions, fuel mileage is a moot point. For instance, the 2008 Honda Civic 5-speed manual gets 26 city/34 highway, while the 5-speed automatic gets 25 city/36 highway.


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## ms6073 (Jul 7, 2005)

CoffeeBean2 said:


> I seem to remember I read somewhere that the team cars are supplied by the sponsor - in this case, Skoda.


Yes but Skoda is also the official sponsor of the Tour and the tour supplies each team with Skoda vehicles for use during the course of the race. 

An intersting tidbit that I remeber from last year's tour, Team Discovery DS Johan Bruyneel's (now with Astana) driving was so bad and because of the damage he had caused to other vehicles, he was required to get a driver as the ASO banned him from driving any vehicles on course for the remaining stages.


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## identifiler (Dec 24, 2005)

No one drives auto in europe. Wait.... I should rephrase, only amercians drive auto... It`s not rare to see a big ass BMW in Italy with a stick, no radio and hardly any accessories. People aren't car centric outside of the US. Oddly enough, just about any european maker`s car sucks asphalt better than any US automaker, one of the many reasons why GM is going going gonnnnnnne !


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, I was talking about automatics in the last 30 years, not 50 years ago. What kind of off -road rally are you people driving in that you are loosing control with your automaic? You're kidding, right? With all the advances in the modern automatic the average joe would not really appreciate the supposed control advantages of a stick, let alone at 20-30 mph. I drove a Honda accord automatic up and down and around the rockies in colorado for 2 years in snow and rain and dry (and those mountains dwarf the Euro peaks) and never ever even had the slightest "control" problem. Were not talkin about taking corners at 80 MPH. Anyone who buys a stick WHERE I LIVE would be looked at as a full kook (with notable exception made for those who buy a mustang, porshe etc who just like the concept/thrill) And by the way, I wouldnt brag too much about euro- cars compared to american. My saab is the worst car Ive ever owned. Now japanese is another story. GM is going downhill because they have a terrible business plan and so-so cars. Americans like automatics not because they are "car centric", but because we also like indoor electricity and refridgeration.


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## HAL9000 (May 1, 2002)

bigmig19 said:


> ..... Americans like automatics not because they are "car centric", but because we also like indoor electricity and refridgeration.



Uh huh....right...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bigmig19 said:


> And by the way, I wouldnt brag too much about euro- cars compared to american. My saab is the worst car Ive ever owned.


now, who is the owner of saab again?


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> That's old school thinking. With modern automatic transmissions, fuel mileage is a moot point. For instance, the 2008 Honda Civic 5-speed manual gets 26 city/34 highway, while the 5-speed automatic gets 25 city/36 highway.


And I also question the "need" for a manual tranny in the mountains. I drive my Ford Exploder through twisty mountain roads all the time and never have a problem controlling speed. If I'm descending a particularly steep section I can just kick it down to 3 or 2...problem solved--sports cars like Audis or the like are even easier as they have paddle shifters. 

My other car is a manual and it's fun to drive and has its advantages and disadvantages, but I'd pick a auto over a manual anytime if I'm gonna have to do a lot of city driving or if I was multi-tasking. Clutching all the time is just no fun.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

some people just like manual transmissions... like myself.

i can't stand driving autos


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## identifiler (Dec 24, 2005)

That`s all I`m gonna say. Oh, and sorry for the video, it is in ''foreign language''

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ICtiB7EGHjA&feature=related


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## Iwannapodiumgirl (Jun 26, 2002)

skode provides all the cars, except for the medic car which is an audi cabriolet. yet they're all part of the vw stable so i guess all cars are provided by vw...

it's very rare to find an automatic transmission car in europe. and rarer to find a european that would drive an automatic transmission, especially in a car as subtle as a pro-team support vehcile! most cars are diesel, as the price of gas is ridiculous and you can get close to 1000kms on a tank of diesel for a 1.8L/2.0L engine.


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## d-rock (Nov 26, 2005)

I'll say it. If you are a man and drive an automatic, you are a pu$$y.

I never understood the "driving a manual in traffic is a pain". You either know how to drive a manual or not. It's the same as steering, a natural part of driving. I live in Atlanta, home of some of the worst traffic hell. I'm thankful I don't have an automatic.

D.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

I learned and tested for my license on a manual. Since then, every car I have owned has been an automatic (all Hondas bought used). I've lived in hilly areas with lots of steep hills and twisty roads (San Fransisco, East Bay hills), areas with big climbs and severe conditions (Utah). The notion that automatics are inferior or even unsuitable for such conditions is baloney.

I'll say it, if you claim that they type of transmission you drive is what makes you man, the rest of us know what you are compensating for. 

I do dig a woman who can drive a manual. :arf:


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## sevencycle (Apr 23, 2006)

*I bet its got a Ashtray too.*

I bet its got a Ashtray too.:idea:


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## identifiler (Dec 24, 2005)

I don't think you`re getting the message. The tour de France is not the tour of america. People don't have explorers in the rest of the world. People don't have two cars in their driveway. People don't go get a starcrap coffee in a car in the rest of the world. 

Cheese is with raw milk
Fries are not in palm oil
Real croissant use butter
A pizza is thin
Women don't get implants at the age of 15
kids drink with their parents
No church meetings
The use of condoms in school is a good thing
People take bikes to work
At the beach, some women go topless at that point we don't do high fives while drinking a piss beer and saying ''i`d hit it''.
Sometimes, I kiss my male freinds on the cheek.
We do not let our wifes tell us what to do.


Thanks for understanding.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

I love Europe, they do MANY things better than the US. But the notion that manual transmission is some sort of advantage for everyday driving is completely ludicrous. I repect anyone who LIKES them better, but there is a reason nearly everyone buys automatic in the US. If you buy a stick, 9 times out of 10 you did so because you had to buy the base model due to financial constraints. Join us in th 21st, or even late 20th century, man. I suppose americans use computers because we are too "lazy" to use legal pads and file cabinets. Stop being so ethnocentric. And I bought my SAAB new when it was still 99% swede. Sorry the US AND Europe makes some shitey cars. I am fascinated that the Tour provides all the team cars though.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

identifiler said:


> Cheese is with raw milk
> Fries are not in palm oil
> Real croissant use butter
> A pizza is thin
> ...


What is hilarious to me is that in your snark, condescending tone to educate what you think are ignorant American's of European culture, you are just showing your own bias, and lack of any understanding of our culture.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

d-rock said:


> I'll say it. If you are a man and drive an automatic, you are a pu$$y.
> 
> I never understood the "driving a manual in traffic is a pain". You either know how to drive a manual or not. It's the same as steering, a natural part of driving. I live in Atlanta, home of some of the worst traffic hell. I'm thankful I don't have an automatic.
> 
> D.


I don't get the reasoning. I know how to drive both and I think both have their place. Saying someone is a ***** because of how they shift gears is just childish. I suppose you have friction shifters on your bike also?


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

Kestreljr said:


> What is hilarious to me is that in your snark, condescending tone to educate what you think are ignorant American's of European culture, you are just showing your own bias, and lack of any understanding of our culture.



hit the nail on the head for sure.

Chad


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

why is drivin' stick so incredible... just accept it is not skoda being poor, just how things are done in europe... stick is just as natural a choice as diesel in cars over there.... get over it!?


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

I've not worked on a mountainous course like the TdF, but I have driven crew and done motorcycle support before - and the range of speeds is not that great, you hardly have to shift at all. Like anything, after a while you get used to it and it becomes second-nature.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

bigmig19 said:


> ...the notion that manual transmission is some sort of advantage for everyday driving is completely ludicrous.


bigmig, it needs to be said: you just may be a grandma. :wink:



bigmig19 said:


> .............but there is a reason nearly everyone buys automatic in the US. If you buy a stick, 9 times out of 10 you did so because you had to buy the base model due to financial constraints.


Tell that to all the folks that drive Evos, WRXs, Mazda 6s, Mini Coopers, 240SXs, M3s, GTIs, SRT-4s, ...... Very old-fashioned thinking on your part. Stick is more fun. In many circumstances, it gives a lot more control. 

Apologies to all the grandmas out there. Don't worry, your Ford Explorers are fine vehicles. Honest.


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

bigmig19 said:


> Anyone who buys a stick WHERE I LIVE would be looked at as a full kook (with notable exception made for those who buy a mustang, porshe etc who just like the concept/thrill) And by the way, I wouldnt brag too much about euro- cars compared to american. My saab is the worst car Ive ever owned. Now japanese is another story. GM is going downhill because they have a terrible business plan and so-so cars. Americans like automatics not because they are "car centric", but because we also like indoor electricity and refridgeration.


Do you live in a seniors complex? In that case, yes, buying a manual would make you look like a kook 

And yeah, orry to burts your bubble but Saab=GM


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## ridenfish39 (Jun 20, 2008)

bigmig19 said:


> I love Europe, they do MANY things better than the US. But the notion that manual transmission is some sort of advantage for everyday driving is completely ludicrous. I repect anyone who LIKES them better, but there is a reason nearly everyone buys automatic in the US. If you buy a stick, 9 times out of 10 you did so because you had to buy the base model due to financial constraints. Join us in th 21st, or even late 20th century, man. I suppose americans use computers because we are too "lazy" to use legal pads and file cabinets. Stop being so ethnocentric. And I bought my SAAB new when it was still 99% swede. Sorry the US AND Europe makes some shitey cars. I am fascinated that the Tour provides all the team cars though.


I prefer a manual trans because:
-you get better fuel mileage
-you have better control of the car
-automatic transmissions dont last as long (all autos I have owned gave me problems-Jap or American)
-more fun to drive (especially if you have a performance car like I do)


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bigmig19 said:


> Join us in th 21st, or even late 20th century, man. And I bought my SAAB new when it was still 99% swede.


So you bought it pre 89 then? join us in th 21st century indeed


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

I think I already said, fine, if you LIKE the experience of driving a manual, just dont tell me its some sort of major advantge. If it was, the shift in public buying habits would be toward manual. If you are buying it just to feel like a "man", then you have much bigger fish to fry with your therapist. I dont know one single person who goes to buy a car and says, I think ill step back 100 years and buy a stick, unless they are buying a performance car and like the "thrill"/ coolness factor. 99% of people buy automatic, despite being more money. If euros like their sticks, that cool with me. RE; my OP: I still think it would be infinitely easier to drive a team car while multitasking out the wazoo if ya dont have to shift. Thats common sense. Mattie White was shifting with NO hands on the wheel (other hand had phone and piece of paper) at one point, that doesnt sound like alot of control to me. Our automatics, as stated before, do just fine in the much higher altitudes here in the states. I drove my Honda up a dirt road to 14000 feet without the slightest problem.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Oh, and one more reason to like a manual shift - Golf carts don't fare well in the Alpes or Pyrenees!

Seriously, roads in the Alpes, Pyrenees, Massif Central, Appenines, Vosges, etc. are *not* like roads in the USA (even twisty Colorado roads are not anywhere like these Euro mountain roads). A manual provides the driver a degree of control and engine braking that is necessary. Remember, these roads were built on top of goat tracks and I have yet to see an automatic goat!


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

bigmig19 said:


> I dont know one single person who goes to buy a car and says, I think ill step back 100 years and buy a stick, unless they are buying a performance car and like the "thrill"/ coolness factor. 99% of people buy automatic, despite being more money.


FYI, I don't know one single person who has gone out and said "I want to buy an automatic but am willing to put up with the lack of performance on the type of roads I drive daily" 99% of people here (in Europe) buy manuals, not because they are regressing, nor because they are interesting in the coolness factor but simply because these cars are better suited to our driving conditions. But perhaps they are all wrong???? 

Just sayin'.....


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

philippec said:


> FYI, I don't know one single person who has gone out and said "I want to buy an automatic but am willing to put up with the lack of performance on the type of roads I drive daily" 99% of people here (in Europe) buy manuals, not because they are regressing, nor because they are interesting in the coolness factor but simply because these cars are better suited to our driving conditions. But perhaps they are all wrong????
> 
> Just sayin'.....


How many miles have you driven a modern automatic transmission? They have come a long ways in the last 10 years.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> How many miles have you driven a modern automatic transmission? They have come a long ways in the last 10 years.


Perhaps modern transmissions, which, unless you drive a high performance car are superior to manual transmissions in almost every way, haven't reached Europe yet.


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## PDex (Mar 23, 2004)

philippec said:


> Oh, and one more reason to like a manual shift - Golf carts don't fare well in the Alpes or Pyrenees!
> 
> Seriously, roads in the Alpes, Pyrenees, Massif Central, Appenines, Vosges, etc. are *not* like roads in the USA (even twisty Colorado roads are not anywhere like these Euro mountain roads). A manual provides the driver a degree of control and engine braking that is necessary. Remember, these roads were built on top of goat tracks and I have yet to see an automatic goat!


+1. 

Most of the fun of driving in Colorado mountains has been engineered out. With the possible exception of Independence and Red Mountain passes, they have been widened, re-graded, and tamed to vanilla. Still, Red Mountain and Independence cannot compare to the roads we see in the mountain stages.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

philippec said:


> FYI, I don't know one single person who has gone out and said "I want to buy an automatic but am willing to put up with the lack of performance on the type of roads I drive daily" 99% of people here (in Europe) buy manuals, not because they are regressing, nor because they are interesting in the coolness factor but simply because these cars are better suited to our driving conditions. But perhaps they are all wrong????
> 
> Just sayin'.....


It sounds like Europeans are generally less car-centric -- less likely to own a car, less inclined to spend money on cars and spend less time in their cars. As such, it makes sense that demand for optional upgrades is lower. They also contend with higher gas prices, which favors manual transmssions. How many Europeans are driving these converted goat tracks on a regular basis? :skep: I doubt their buying habits have anything to do with "driving conditions."


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> It sounds like Europeans are generally less car-centric -- less likely to own a car, less inclined to spend money on cars and spend less time in their cars. As such, it makes sense that demand for optional upgrades is lower. They also contend with higher gas prices, which favors manual transmssions. How many Europeans are driving these converted goat tracks on a regular basis? :skep: I doubt their buying habits have anything to do with "driving conditions."


Guessing most Euro cars are lower displacement engines also--another reason for manual tranny. They don't drive big V8s like over here.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> It sounds like Europeans are generally *1: less car-centric* -- less likely to own a car, *2: less inclined to spend money on cars* and spend less time in their cars. As such, *3: it makes sense that demand for optional upgrades is lower*. They also contend with higher gas prices, which favors manual transmssions. *4: How many Europeans are driving these converted goat tracks on a regular basis?* :skep: *5: I doubt their buying habits have anything to do with "driving conditions.*"


Take it from a European: you are SO wrong.

1: absolutely not true. The opposite applies. Which would explain the dislike of autos
2: Just not true
3: Huh?
4: Many. All the others drive the dividing line between farm plots. :wink:
5: Wrong

All this thread proves is that some people 'get it' and many other don't. Driving in the US is for the most part dumbed down due to a superior road network, with excellent engineering, signage and markings. The notion of handling and control is completely lost on most of the herd. I mean just look at the uptake on the bovine vehicles like Hummers, Tahoes, Expeditions,..... The frickin Mustang has a live rear axle!


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

So the people who "get it" associate good roads with a "dumbed down" driving culture? Big SUVs have been a hot item, but the pendulum is swinging towards small cars which are associated with our wiser if slightly effete European counterparts. Now I see the depth of the irony there.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

d-rock said:


> I'll say it. If you are a man and drive an automatic, you are a pu$$y.
> 
> I never understood the "driving a manual in traffic is a pain". You either know how to drive a manual or not. It's the same as steering, a natural part of driving. I live in Atlanta, home of some of the worst traffic hell. I'm thankful I don't have an automatic.
> 
> D.


You have never driven in a caravan have you. Having a manual in something like the Wall in philly is a pain in teh ass your going so slow that stalling out is a constant problem also you weaving around riders and trying to talk on the radio. I had to drive a manual in the caravan this year and it was a royal PIA do able but a PIA.

BTW people who rate manhood on what car or tool another person uses most likely arn't mature enough to be rated as an adult.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

The differences in driving experiences in Europe and the United States are interesting, but don't address the main point of the original post... Matt White (and any other DS) might be better at his job and more safe for everyone with an automatic transmission. He's not trying to carve up the col d'agnel descent for thrills, he's there in support of his riders. The car is merely a tool that puts him in the right place at the right time. If it requires more of his attention than necessary, it may not be the best tool for the job.


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## rkj__ (Mar 21, 2007)

*Thanks for the insult, I appreciate it.*



d-rock said:


> I'll say it. If you are a man and drive an automatic, you are a pu$$y.
> D.


When I was learning to drive, I wanted to learn on a manual, but, the driving school only had autos. And, my parents only had autos, like the majority of Canadian drivers. Oh well, I have no issues with an automatic.


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## identifiler (Dec 24, 2005)

hi hi hi I knew this would spiral towards drama. Here is my take: some folks just plain and simply have never own a european car, a manual, driven in europe let alone been there. It`s different, talking Humvees and Explorer and stuff like that is like a non subject for a european (minus the Nice living russian mobster). Say Ford Explorer to an Italian or French, people will have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, plain and simple. I know it`s a weird concept that american cars are mostly only sold on America (even if most are built in Mexico and Canada now...)

Eurpoean less car centric is not entirely false, however, formula one drivers are semi gods, people drive extremely fast in the fast lane, no pick up trucks, no 18 wheelers. People don't have expensive cars, what ? Bemmers, merx, audis are standard. HOWEVER, look inside an S4 or an M3, there`s a stick, there`s no radio sometimes and there isn't some kind of nasty climate control or automatic back massage system... no options, cause it`s for the drive, not the traffic. They are less car centric to the fact that malls don't exists, there is no drive through cafe or banks, you can catch a pretty fast train between Paris and Marseilles.

I know some take offense at my list, I understand, I have for many years lived in both Europe and America. The list is for fun and could go both ways. My boss is country music lovin mormon republican who lived in europe, he totally understands where I am coming from, that says a lot about the easily offended...


Obama is right, a second language is necessary for your kids.


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## Iwannapodiumgirl (Jun 26, 2002)

sure, most europeans drive smaller cars (both in size and engine capacity) yet european car makers DO make four-wheel drives; audi q7, bmw x5, range rover, porsche cayenne, volvo xc70, vw toureg and so on and so forth... 

europeans may not refer to these as SUVs as that seems to be a north american term, yet i think it's slowly taking on on the continent.

europeans simply drive more manuals. it's just what they do. why? who knows. maybe once someone explains this someone will understand why some european men wear suits with dress shoes and no socks.

does anyone know if skoda provides an auto option on the model used in the tour? my 6th grade french teacher never provided me with a "buying a skoda in france" scenario.
www.skoda.fr


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## ilan (Nov 27, 2006)

I do agree that Europeans have too much attachment to manual transmission. It's true that a manual is more efficient, but if you have a big engine with a broad power band, the issue becomes moot. In particular, I am continually amazed by the number of big Mercedes cars with manual transmissions. My next car here in Europe will be an automatic, a Mini Cooper S with 6 speeds and plenty of torque, the automatic should work great. As for driving "fun" I'd rather concentrate on the driving than the shifting (though I do know how to double clutch when braking) in particular, the most driving fun I ever have is with a rental go cart which has exactly 1 speed. 

A lot of Europeans are so used to manuals that they wouldn't be able to drive automatics, despite using manuals as a pseudo automatic. For example, I was sitting next to my mother in law who's 70 while she was driving her antiquated Peugeot 205. She was so busy talking that she didn't notice that she started in 3rd gear (by slipping the clutch) then shifted to 2nd as she sped up. 

Another important point for cyclists is that manual transmission forces you to put your left foot in an awkward position, which can cause leg problems if you're riding a lot. 

As for the small European roads, they aren't too much smaller than the ones I used to drive on in Northern California (Page Mill Road, West Alpine, Tunitas Creek rd) and have better quality pavement. 

By the way, I got a good lesson in caravan driving skill when I went to watch the Criterium International ITT. The team follow vehicles were able to follow cyclists down a twisting descent with an awkward turn despite having 4 people in the car, 4 bikes on the roof rack and an untold number of spare wheels. On one lap, the local Mazda dealership had test rides of their new Mazda Rx-8 and that car got dropped big time on that descent. Another example of negative sponsorship, I will never consider that car ever. In any case, it's proof that it's the driver, not the car.

-ilan


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## humble (Nov 23, 2007)

philippec said:


> Oh, and one more reason to like a manual shift - Golf carts don't fare well in the Alpes or Pyrenees!
> 
> Seriously, roads in the Alpes, Pyrenees, Massif Central, Appenines, Vosges, etc. are *not* like roads in the USA (even twisty Colorado roads are not anywhere like these Euro mountain roads). A manual provides the driver a degree of control and engine braking that is necessary. Remember, these roads were built on top of goat tracks and I have yet to see an automatic goat!


i think modern automatics with manual override - such as triptronic - perform the function of downshifting equally or better than manuals - in personal vehicles. There are other features or manuals that make them more desirable - such as - they are lighter - cheaper and they transfer power to the engine more efficiently - in Europe.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Comments here are pretty funny. If you're stalling in a manual you simply don't know how to drive it, or have an (old) car with unstable idle. Left foot gets tired? Okay, maybe in a stiff clutch coupled to a 300hp engine perhaps, never an issue in a smaller / mid size family or econo car (I drive an econo manual in 3 hours of roundtrip traffic per day = never had an issue). Average car in Europe has much smaller engine than US cars so people drive them more to the limits. And there's a saying that driving an econo car to 99% of its limits is loads more fun than driving an exotic to only 50% of its limit.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

This thread was hilarious. Should team directors wear boxers or briefs?


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Most men here in Europe wear briefs.... [ducks]


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

Philippec nailed it: engine braking.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

rogger said:


> Philippec nailed it: engine braking.


With a modern auto you can do that easily.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

This is hilarious, what "control" are you talking about? Have you driven a car with automatic in the last century? They have fancy breaks, all wheel drive etc. There are no control issues at all! Ive driven both plenty of times. Unless you are racing, its not an issue and hasnt been for decades. I think its cultural, not superiority in any way. The guy was driving with NO HANDS at one point while shifting! Give me a Smart car with automatic baby!


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

bigmig19 said:


> This is hilarious, what "control" are you talking about? Have you driven a car with automatic in the last century? They have fancy breaks, all wheel drive etc. There are no control issues at all! Ive driven both plenty of times. Unless you are racing, its not an issue and hasnt been for decades. I think its cultural, not superiority in any way. The guy was driving with NO HANDS at one point while shifting! Give me a Smart car with automatic baby!


bigmig19, 

If you live anywhere near Atlanta, let me know. I can only think of one way of explaining the 'control' thing  

All it would take is a 15min drive....

dave2pvd


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

dave2pvd said:


> bigmig19,
> 
> If you live anywhere near Atlanta, let me know. I can only think of one way of explaining the 'control' thing
> 
> ...


I think that Bigmig is staying focused on the application at hand- a caravan in a bike race. While speeds increase and decrease rapidly, a modern automatic could easily handle these 35mph hour and under speeds. (Team cars don't stay close on descents.) 

If your point is that a manual is more fun, or better for high intensity driving, I think that point was conceded 20 post ago.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

Wouldnt atlanta be the poster child for automatic transmission? Ive been there alot for conferences and I believe you would be shifting nonstop in that traffic. The heavier the traffic the more I want a automatic man. Gas to go, brake to stop.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

There are times I think an automatic or tiptronic or whatever would be nice.

I am lucky though: I live in town and work in the burbs. Smaller house, but 75mph commute.


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## Dr_John (Oct 11, 2005)

> DO make four-wheel drives; audi q7, bmw x5, range rover, porsche cayenne, volvo xc70, vw toureg and so on and so forth...


... and these are made primarily for the American market. The BMW X5 and X3 are made in South Carolina.


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