# AR vs F vs Z



## 3forcarter

Hi, I was wondering what the difference is between the AR series, F series and Z series for Felt road bikes. Also what each series is generally made for?

Thanks.


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## zach.scofield

Quickly:

*AR* = Aero Road - between F and Z in geometry, aero shaped frame tubing, slick!
*F* = Race - steep geometry, very aggressive rider position
*Z* = Endurance - relaxed geometry, little more stable and upright rider position, still raceable

If I could get another bike, I'd get an AR


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## pumaking

We'll see how the AR is, gotta finish building it first.


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## zach.scofield

zach.scofield said:


> if i could get another bike, i'd get an ar


 but i still love my f!


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## cincyjack

Just scored a Z4 and have to post 5 times before I can crow about it in my own thread.


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## Don4

cincyjack said:


> Just scored a Z4 and have to post 5 times before I can crow about it in my own thread.


Congratulations! Can't wait for your sixth post! When you get back from your first ride, tell us about it!


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## Sisniega

zach.scofield said:


> but i still love my f!


i have the z6 its my first bike and I'm very happy with


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## 95zpro

The AR is good for flat roads and long days in the saddle, because of the aero tubing you will notice some flex when accelerating or getting up to speed such as during a crit. The F series is Felts race frame so it's very stiff and light. And the Z series is going to have some similar qualities as the F series but a lot more relaxed seating position. Here's a few pics of my AR and F series bikes, I just turned my AR into a TT style bike since I'm using the F-1 as my race bike.5.


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## hpkang

Sorry for hijacking the thread..(Can't post questions)
I am in the process of getting into road biking (have a commuter hybrid) and saw a pretty good deal for an upgraded 2006 Felt75 on craigslist (shimano crank and brakes, EC90 fork and seatpost, continental 4000s tires, $750). I tried it out and its very nice (brand new condition, owner is a bike nut but never rode it). I've seen some posts about how the F series is more of a racing bike. I don't envision getting into racing, am mostly interested in recreational weekend rides of 30-40 miles. Would the F series not be a good fit for me, as a beginning rider? It does seem to have a very aggressive geometry. Is it possible/recommended to modify it (for example with spacers) to make it a more relaxed geometry?

Thanks!


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## snajper69

hpkang said:


> Sorry for hijacking the thread..(Can't post questions)
> I am in the process of getting into road biking (have a commuter hybrid) and saw a pretty good deal for an upgraded 2006 Felt75 on craigslist (shimano crank and brakes, EC90 fork and seatpost, continental 4000s tires, $750). I tried it out and its very nice (brand new condition, owner is a bike nut but never rode it). I've seen some posts about how the F series is more of a racing bike. I don't envision getting into racing, am mostly interested in recreational weekend rides of 30-40 miles. Would the F series not be a good fit for me, as a beginning rider? It does seem to have a very aggressive geometry. Is it possible/recommended to modify it (for example with spacers) to make it a more relaxed geometry?
> 
> Thanks!


well the steerer been cut already most likely so there is no way to add spacer any more. the difference in the geo is not as big as you might think and unless you have week back you will be fine with either. If you feel any discomfort I recomend some planks twice a day, and in no time you should enjoy your more agressive position. Atleast thats whats been working for me.


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## flyinbriyin

Bought an AR5....loved it until it broke within 1 year of ownership. Felt isn't honoring the warranty...still trying to find out why?


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## RobbMaxx

flyinbriyin said:


> Bought an AR5....loved it until it broke within 1 year of ownership. Felt isn't honoring the warranty...still trying to find out why?


Crazy, I had NOTHING but good CS from them. They were honest though, they told me to ship the frame to them and they would have their team look at it and decide whether it was Owner error or not, they found that a piece of carbon hadn't overlaid and did the right thing... Wasnt an AR, but it was just as Much $$$

Thats a bummer, I have heard VERY few bad things about their warranty service


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## bwbishop

I had absolutely great CS from them as well on a warranty claim. 

Felt doesn't owe it to you to justify or argue with you in public. If you have questions, call them and conduct your business is private. You might get a better response than flooding public boards with bad PR.


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## flyinbriyin

flyinbriyin said:


> Bought an AR5....loved it until it broke within 1 year of ownership. Felt isn't honoring the warranty...still trying to find out why?


Felt says that it was a mechanical failure which caused the rear derailer hanger to snap in half and sent the rear derailer/chain into the back spokes causing several spokes to break and the frame to fail.

Looks like I'm out $2400...and have no bike to ride!


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## adams90210

bwbishop said:


> I had absolutely great CS from them as well on a warranty claim.
> 
> Felt doesn't owe it to you to justify or argue with you in public. If you have questions, call them and conduct your business is private. You might get a better response than flooding public boards with bad PR.


I don't think this is really fair. I think that it's important that people point out customer service issues. I think it helps people make better buying decisions. If Felt is refusing to honor it's warranty then public forums are the place to make people aware. Just my 2 cents.


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## RobbMaxx

adams90210 said:


> I don't think this is really fair. I think that it's important that people point out customer service issues. I think it helps people make better buying decisions.  If Felt is refusing to honor it's warranty then public forums are the place to make people aware. Just my 2 cents.


But Felt isnt refusing to honor their warranty. Like he said, it was a mechanical issue, which has ZERO to do with the frame, or Felt as a company.

I agree, if they said, well we determined that the frame was faulty... AND you are out of luck, then that is refusing to honor a warranty. 

If Felt gave a new frame to everybody who had a mechanical failure and/or wrecked, then Felt wouldnt be around long. I have read A LOT of threads about good CS from Felt, and very few bad. I have an inkling that the bad comes from the few people that think they can take advantage of a warranty, when it isnt a warranty issue at all. Its like a car, if you don't change the oil and never service it, it is bound to break down. If you ran it dry on oil for 3 years, would you expect the company to honor the warranty once they realized it was a user error?

I am not trying to say that the OP did something wrong, I am just saying that because someone thinks it should be warrantied, doesnt mean it should be.


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## bwbishop

RobbMaxx said:


> But Felt isnt refusing to honor their warranty. Like he said, it was a mechanical issue, which has ZERO to do with the frame, or Felt as a company.
> 
> I agree, if they said, well we determined that the frame was faulty... AND you are out of luck, then that is refusing to honor a warranty.
> 
> If Felt gave a new frame to everybody who had a mechanical failure and/or wrecked, then Felt wouldnt be around long. I have read A LOT of threads about good CS from Felt, and very few bad. I have an inkling that the bad comes from the few people that think they can take advantage of a warranty, when it isnt a warranty issue at all. Its like a car, if you don't change the oil and never service it, it is bound to break down. If you ran it dry on oil for 3 years, would you expect the company to honor the warranty once they realized it was a user error?
> 
> I am not trying to say that the OP did something wrong, I am just saying that because someone thinks it should be warrantied, doesnt mean it should be.


^^^^^^This^^^^^^


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## Superdave3T

flyinbriyin said:


> Felt says that it was a mechanical failure which caused the rear derailer hanger to snap in half and sent the rear derailer/chain into the back spokes causing several spokes to break and the frame to fail.
> 
> Looks like I'm out $2400...and have no bike to ride!


An improperly adjusted rear derailleur limit screw could cause this; even if the bike is new. It could also be from a slightly bent hanger from the bike falling over or even catching the rear derailleur on a door jam or other obstruction. The damage may have been done hours, days or weeks prior to the day the hanger broke. The failure could have been caused from a shift into the largest 25t cog. With a slightly inward bend the derailleur could have caught the spokes in the wheel ripping it from the frame and destroying the wheel.

It isn't common, but it happens, and it has nothing to do with the integrity of the frame.

I understand you are frustrated and you are certainly welcome to post your frustrations here. This isn't a Felt website, this is a consumer site and "keeping it real" is what makes it great.

I'm sorry the failure was deemed to fall outside of our warranty against defects, etc...

Did you ask about our crash replacement policy? We have a generous no-questions-asked discount that you can take advantage of to keep you riding.

Best of luck,
-SD


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## flyinbriyin

SuperdaveFelt said:


> An improperly adjusted rear derailleur limit screw could cause this; even if the bike is new. It could also be from a slightly bent hanger from the bike falling over or even catching the rear derailleur on a door jam or other obstruction. The damage may have been done hours, days or weeks prior to the day the hanger broke. The failure could have been caused from a shift into the largest 25t cog. With a slightly inward bend the derailleur could have caught the spokes in the wheel ripping it from the frame and destroying the wheel.
> 
> It isn't common, but it happens, and it has nothing to do with the integrity of the frame.
> 
> I understand you are frustrated and you are certainly welcome to post your frustrations here. This isn't a Felt website, this is a consumer site and "keeping it real" is what makes it great.
> 
> I'm sorry the failure was deemed to fall outside of our warranty against defects, etc...
> 
> Did you ask about our crash replacement policy? We have a generous no-questions-asked discount that you can take advantage of to keep you riding.
> 
> Best of luck,
> -SD


This has all been explained to me...over and over again, including the crash replacement, (which I have no choice but to do). I spoke to the warranty customer service, I have no qualms with Felt, it just blows my mind that this type of mechanical failure happens, then breaks the frame. I thought carbon was stronger than steel! I was only going 10-12 mph at the time and it broke the frame...THAT is my confusion! I don't hold Felt at fault, nor do I discount the good company it has been. It literally just baffles me that something so small would break my carbon frame and trash a $2400 bike less than a year after I bought it! I understand that the forces involved are great but, c'mon! This can't help but make my confidence in Felt frames diminish somewhat! 

Further, I asked the warranty department exactly what they would consider acceptable preventative maintenance. I was told at least once a month. Truthfully though, if this same issue were to take place the day I had my bike tuned up by a Felt dealer, the bike would still not be covered...as it's a mechanical failure.

:mad2: I'll need to spend another $1000 to get a bike back. I'm just venting frustrations here but I think everyone needs to know of these possibilites taking place to them....I wish someone would have explained it to me. It's been a VERY expensive lesson to learn.


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## Camilo

flyinbriyin said:


> ... I have no qualms with Felt, it just blows my mind that this type of mechanical failure happens, then breaks the frame.... It literally just baffles me that something so small would break my carbon frame and trash a $2400 bike less than a year after I bought it! ...This can't help but make my confidence in Felt frames diminish somewhat! ......I'm just venting frustrations here but I think everyone needs to know of these possibilites taking place to them....I wish someone would have explained it to me. It's been a VERY expensive lesson to learn.


Actually, with the same mechanical problem, a steel or aluminum frame could also break, it's not unheard of.

And, there's no reason to diminish your confidence in Felt frames - it has absolutely nothing to do with the company or the material. Someone messed up and that is what caused your bike to break, not the material or the company.

I'm very sorry to hear about your accident, but think of it in terms of if you'd crashed or something - it's the same sort of problem. If you hit a lamp post with your bike and it broke, would you be venting your frustration with Felt on a public forum? I don't think so.

I'm confused - is your entire bike $2,400 or just the frame? If it's the price of the entire bike, then you haven't ruined a $2,400 bike because most if not all the parts could be put on a new frame. 

I hope you get on the road ASAP at a price you can afford.


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## flyinbriyin

This whole ordeal would have been easier to swallow if I had crashed, but I didn't! If I had been hit or hit something, I would have known I was the cause. I was simply pedaling up a hill, when "snap"! If the frame broke as the result of an accident, this would be a lot easier to understand.

I agree, it has nothing to do with Felt or the quality of the worksmanship. I understand this could have happened with any manufacturers frame. Felt bikes are the only road bikes I've ever owned because they've been so reliable. This is just my first very expensive incident, so forgive me for venting.

The bike is an AR5, and the cost of the whole thing was $2400. They are giving me a replacement frame at a discount, but it's still $800. I'm assuming the frame runs around $1500 - $1800 regularly!


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## chudak

flyinbriyin said:


> This whole ordeal would have been easier to swallow if I had crashed, but I didn't! If I had been hit or hit something, I would have known I was the cause. I was simply pedaling up a hill, when "snap"! If the frame broke as the result of an accident, this would be a lot easier to understand.
> 
> I agree, it has nothing to do with Felt or the quality of the worksmanship. I understand this could have happened with any manufacturers frame. Felt bikes are the only road bikes I've ever owned because they've been so reliable. This is just my first very expensive incident, so forgive me for venting.
> 
> The bike is an AR5, and the cost of the whole thing was $2400. They are giving me a replacement frame at a discount, but it's still $800. I'm assuming the frame runs around $1500 - $1800 regularly!


My bike was stolen. Felt should warranty the bike and give me a new one! After all, it wasn't my fault it was stolen. It was the thief's fault. Why should I get stuck with the cost of replacing it?

I have a new bike now but had to pay the insurance deductible of $600. It sure would have been easier to swallow if I'd crashed the bike instead!

/sarcasm

Sounds kinda silly doesn't it?

At least you got a discount on the damaged frame. I had to pay full price for my new bike. :mad2:


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## flyinbriyin

chudak said:


> My bike was stolen. Felt should warranty the bike and give me a new one! After all, it wasn't my fault it was stolen. It was the thief's fault. Why should I get stuck with the cost of replacing it?
> 
> I have a new bike now but had to pay the insurance deductible of $600. It sure would have been easier to swallow if I'd crashed the bike instead!
> 
> /sarcasm
> 
> Sounds kinda silly doesn't it?
> 
> At least you got a discount on the damaged frame. I had to pay full price for my new bike. :mad2:


Sounds like your being pretty condescending. Theft and frame damage are totally different. My qualm is that my frame broke under normal riding conditions. Why can't any of you understand that. I don't appreciate nor need the sarcasm. These forums are simply to voice opinions and experiences so that others may learn.

And ya, sucks for you! And I too am going to be out over another $1000 for essentially a new bike.


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## jmorgan

flyinbriyin said:


> Sounds like your being pretty condescending. Theft and frame damage are totally different. My qualm is that my frame broke under normal riding conditions. Why can't any of you understand that. I don't appreciate nor need the sarcasm. These forums are simply to voice opinions and experiences so that others may learn.
> 
> And ya, sucks for you! And I too am going to be out over another $1000 for essentially a new bike.


Your frame broke from a mechanical issue which you may or may not have caused intentionally or not. Felt is taking care of you by offering you a replacement frame at a substantially reduced cost because it was your fault not the frames fault. Not sure why its so hard for you to realize the difference, no other manufacture would give you a free frame either, they would have all concluded the same thing Felt did. Your complaint or issue should lie with yourself if you wrench on your own bike or possibly your LBS if they wrenched on it and caused the issue. 

My guess is you messed with the rear derailleur at some point and messed with the limit screws and or they were not adjusted by your LBS correctly and this led to your issue. Nothing Felt did caused this issue, something you probably did caused the issue. Loading your bike into your car wrong bending the rear derailleur hanger or the bike hitting something at some point could also have caused it, both of these would be your fault.


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## flyinbriyin

jmorgan said:


> Your frame broke from a mechanical issue which you may or may not have caused intentionally or not. Felt is taking care of you by offering you a replacement frame at a substantially reduced cost because it was your fault not the frames fault. Not sure why its so hard for you to realize the difference, no other manufacture would give you a free frame either, they would have all concluded the same thing Felt did. Your complaint or issue should lie with yourself if you wrench on your own bike or possibly your LBS if they wrenched on it and caused the issue.
> 
> My guess is you messed with the rear derailleur at some point and messed with the limit screws and or they were not adjusted by your LBS correctly and this led to your issue. Nothing Felt did caused this issue, something you probably did caused the issue. Loading your bike into your car wrong bending the rear derailleur hanger or the bike hitting something at some point could also have caused it, both of these would be your fault.


Hi. Um, that's exactly what I have had to face. If you read any earlier you would know that I am not blaming Felt. I was simply surprised at how easily the Felt carbon frame broke...that is all. Yes, it's frustrating....yes, I know whose fault it is....yes, I am glad Felt is offering me another frame at a discount. I know all of this...I am simply venting my frustrations. This was my first carbon bike, and it lasted 11 months! I've ridden aluminum for 12 years without any issues (Felt frames, btw). I was simply under the impression that carbon was MUCH stronger than aluminum. I guess I was wrong.

Now I would appreciate you all laying off of me by lecturing me on what you think Felt should or shouldn't do. I've come to grips that this was a mechanical failure, which I knew from the beginning. I had to check with Felt to be sure, they affirmed it. AGAIN, this is all due to my surprise and confusion at how easily the carbon frame broke! I know that it could have happened to any manufacturer and probably has. I am still confused at the break though...that is all.

Now lay off!


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## jhamlin38

Stuff happens. warranties are limited for a reason. 

This thread is EXACTLY why I look forward to purchasing an Felt F series frameset this winter. 

Despite Felt's willingness to help you out, to make sure your still riding a Felt frame, abuse of the Mfg continues.

The light/stiff CF tubes ARE durable. it doesn't mean they'll never ever fail. They're not steel I-beams. The forces that caused the derailleur to break the frame, at 15 mph are no joke. I'm no rocket surgeon, but that's a $hitload of force. 

I don't understand how you could think something wouldn't break. 

Kudos to Felt for their willingness to provide a replacement at a discounted price, and to address this on an open/public forum.


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## Mr. Clean

And here I was hoping for a good AR vs F vs Z thread...
I would be interested in anyone's opinion on said topic


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## bwbishop

Mr. Clean said:


> And here I was hoping for a good AR vs F vs Z thread...
> I would be interested in anyone's opinion on said topic


Aero, racing, comfort. BOOM! Next question


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## terbennett

I've had two frames replace by Felt in the seven years. Never had a problem. Both times, I took the bike to my LBS and Felt just replaced the frames both times with no fuss. Felt has given me the best customer service I've ever received on any product.


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## flyinbriyin

Mr. Clean said:


> And here I was hoping for a good AR vs F vs Z thread...
> I would be interested in anyone's opinion on said topic


LOL! Sorry. I know this discussion took a turn downwards there. I am still sold on the AR frame personally. You won't find a sleeker looking bike! I loved my F75 though. Rode if for nearly a decade without a single issue. It was a very agressive riding position though. The AR is a bit more comfortable. I've never owned or ridden a Z model.

BTW, I do love my new Felt frame. As I said before, it was a very expensive experience for me though.


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## Andy Pancroft

Comfort is for chicks!! You can, as I have, get a Retul on your bikes and make them roll pain-free but, if anyone says, "My bike is comfortable, they're lying!!! These things a re torture racks and that in and of itself is why many just don't get those of us who push 400 miles a week on skinny, hard little tires, riding on a piece of CF with a thin swatch of leather stretched across. Comfort...pfffft!!!


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