# Ride Report: Ambrosio Nemesis Tubular



## DM.Aelis (Jun 19, 2007)

So I bought a tubular wheelset off of the bay in order to complete my cross bike build. My thought: Why not get a bomb-proof high quality tubular set that's cheap to fix, strong, and still reasonably light?

So I found a set of Ambrosio Nemesis Tubular rims laced to Campy Record hubs, 32 3x with Sapim Race spokes. $350 shipped with wheel bags and glued with Challenge Criterium tubular tires. Sold as used but in like-new condition, and that's exactly what they were. True, unblemished, classic. So I was excited to try them out at the races this past weekend; ITT, criterium, and road race.

I'm 140 lbs, 5'8", a climber if anything but I'm just a middling collegiate rider who loves riding his bike. These wheels are way more than I deserve. First off, I'm sold on tubular. If you're using them for racing only, man, it's hard to beat the ride. Smooth, fast, and unbelievable in corners. I don't know if all tubies are like this, or if it's just my tires, but I was GLUED to the road in some really sketchy corners that had other guys skidding/crashing. I could have pushed them even harder, and felt incredibly confident on these wheels.

This is apparently a carbon copy of the sets that pros lace up for Paris-Roubaix and other cobbled classics. I can imagine why. Lighter than my record/open pros, just as strong, faster, corner better, more puncture resistant, sexyyyyyyy, the list goes on.

I'm a 100% satisfied rider, and I encourage anyone to consider the virtues of keeping a nice tubie wheelset like this that can be kept for race day (and double as a race set for cyclocross in the off season, or on season if you prefer).

+10000 for the Ambrosio Nemesis/Record Hub combo.


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

thanks for the report. they have long been on my list of dream wheels. seeing all the pros break their contracts so they can ride them at paris-roubaix certainly makes you take a second look at them.


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## rdolson (Sep 2, 2003)

I built up a set last season from suggestions on this forum. Just with DT Comps instead.

I can agree with you 100%.

I have been riding tubulars for 26yrs (yikes, has it been that long?) and these are my favorite wheels by far.

I wanted the Paris-Roubaix set-up as well, but stopped short of tieing, soldering, and painting. I'm a heavier rider, 6' 195lbs, and these are remarkably nice wheels and go well with my '06 Colnago Master XL with Chorus.

I would recommend them to anybody.


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## kupe (Sep 20, 2005)

I just got an e-mail from Comp. Cyclist today about these exact wheels already glued up w/ Vittoria Pave CG's, but at a much higher price. Looks like you scored pretty good.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...Now+_+khukyu&utm_term=Ambrosio+Nemesis+092209


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## kef3844 (May 30, 2008)

kupe said:


> I just got an e-mail from Comp. Cyclist today about these exact wheels already glued up w/ Vittoria Pave CG's, but at a much higher price. Looks like you scored pretty good.
> 
> http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...Now+_+khukyu&utm_term=Ambrosio+Nemesis+092209



I'm sure that is a nice set of wheels but at that price there are WAY better alternatives. Their copy is entertaining though.... 

I mean you could get Kinlin 25 mm tubular, sapim spokes 20/24 and Alchemy hubs, and be way lighter/ aero.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

so how light is the Ambrosio/campy/sapim wheelset? How light is the entire tubular tire wheelset combo? Just trying to comapre overall wheel weight between clincher/tire-tube and tubular wheelset/ glued tire setups.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

ive just committed to a dura ace/nemesis wheel build and this thread makes me very happy about my decision.

do you guys have a good source for challenge tubulars as i have been looking to try this tyre as well.


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

I just took the leap. You can find the Nemesis on ebay for around $200. Some Italian-o-phile shop in NY. Also got DA 7900 hubset for $200 from them. Doing a fairly standard build with DT aero spokes. Should be fun. After pulling my hair out building carbon wheels the last couple weeks, looking forward to a classic build. May even tie and soder them just for grins.
p.s anyone know how to tie and soder? I have it in a book somewhere but never actually did it. Hey what can go wrong, putting a hot torch to your wheels?


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## DM.Aelis (Jun 19, 2007)

cmg said:


> so how light is the Ambrosio/campy/sapim wheelset? How light is the entire tubular tire wheelset combo? Just trying to comapre overall wheel weight between clincher/tire-tube and tubular wheelset/ glued tire setups.


If i get access to a scale I'll let you know in a jiffy!


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

kupe said:


> I just got an e-mail from Comp. Cyclist today about these exact wheels already glued up w/ Vittoria Pave CG's, but at a much higher price. Looks like you scored pretty good.
> 
> http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...Now+_+khukyu&utm_term=Ambrosio+Nemesis+092209



He did score and that CC price is way over the top. I recently had a set built with new style/black 32h Record hubs and black Sapim CX-Ray spokes 3X for much less money than what CC is charging... and the spokes CC specs aren't even as nice, IMO.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

kef3844 said:


> I'm sure that is a nice set of wheels but at that price there are WAY better alternatives. Their copy is entertaining though....
> 
> I mean you could get Kinlin 25 mm tubular, sapim spokes 20/24 and Alchemy hubs, and be way lighter/ aero.



I'd rather have Nemesis rims and Campy Record hubs plus they can be had for significantly less than CC's price.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

zoikz said:


> I just took the leap. You can find the Nemesis on ebay for around $200. Some Italian-o-phile shop in NY.


Ital-Tecno (the same shop in Niagara Falls, NY) sells them on their own site for $80 each. 



zoikz said:


> May even tie and soder them just for grins.
> p.s anyone know how to tie and soder? I have it in a book somewhere but never actually did it. Hey what can go wrong, putting a hot torch to your wheels?


Tying and soldering spokes essentially serves no other purpose than to keep spokes in place if they break. The only spokes I've had break (2 ever in more than 25 years) were on the rear drive side and those wheels went so far out of true that I couldn't ride home even if those broken spokes were tied in place so as to not flop around.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

its very simple to do: just wrap around beekeeper wire in a figure eight pattern to start, and then wrap around for an even finsih, touch hot soldering iron to the outside wrap to heat up the wire, apply solder and it fills itself in nicely

estimate cx-rays+record+nemisis to be around 1520g on the nose...

personally, don't understand using cxrays in such a build, but to each their own...


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

craaap. got ripped off. website is $80 a pop and I paid over 200 on e-bay to buy them from the same guys. groan. so much for doing homework.
soldering just sounded cool. those aero spokes are craazy expensive. may just go with the DT DB, keep it simple and save $150.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

rocco said:


> Ital-Tecno (the same shop in Niagara Falls, NY) sells them on their own site for $80 each.


i have bought a few things from ital tecno's ebay store without problems but i am having a lot of problems trying to get in contact with them about the nemesis rims

have any of you guys had any issues with getting hold of them? need to get a shipping quote as i am outside the US.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

yep, that would be my choice as well.. nemesis is neither WW nor aero, so skip the cx-rays and go with the ubiquitous, cheaper and stiffer dt comp or sapim race...


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

alexb618 said:


> i have bought a few things from ital tecno's ebay store without problems but i am having a lot of problems trying to get in contact with them about the nemesis rims
> 
> have any of you guys had any issues with getting hold of them? need to get a shipping quote as i am outside the US.



Contacting them can be spotty. They don't answer their phone some times and their voice mail boxes are usually full. I even tried calling them on their 800 number once and got a message saying it was not in service.

If you're outside of the US then why not order them from somewhere else like All 4 Cycling in Italy?


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

wankski said:


> its very simple to do: just wrap around beekeeper wire in a figure eight pattern to start, and then wrap around for an even finsih, touch hot soldering iron to the outside wrap to heat up the wire, apply solder and it fills itself in nicely
> 
> estimate cx-rays+record+nemisis to be around 1520g on the nose...
> 
> personally, don't understand using cxrays in such a build, but to each their own...



Personally, I don't understand why anyone would bother tying and soldering their spokes. It does little if anything to make the wheel anymore stiff or durable. At best it does keep a spoke from flopping around in the rare event one breaks and even that can be pointless if it's on the rear drive side. To top it off it only complicates replacing the broken spoke.

Sapim spokes are the spoke of preference with my wheel builder and I've been quite pleased with them on the various Campy wheels I've used over the years. 

CX-Rays are light, very strong and reputedly are good for building laterally stiff wheels. They were also readily available at the time and they look great. 

The aero advantage of CX-Rays in of itself doesn't hurt nor as far as I know is it canceled out by the traditional box section rim... Campy certainly doesn't think so considering they use them on their Hyperon wheels. 

When available George Noyes certainly prefers to use aero spokes (DT or Sapim) on the wheels he builds with Nemesis rims... On the other hand, he is so old school that he also prefers lower spoke tension and tying and soldering the spokes on the rear wheel. So yeah, to each their own. 

P.S. 1520g ain't bad at all for an alloy wheel you can use and abuse every day for years on end. The weight of these wheels probably won't be the cause of a loss in a road race


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

rocco said:


> Personally, I don't understand why anyone would bother tying and soldering their spokes. It doesn't make the wheel anymore stiff or durable. At best it keeps a spoke from flopping around in the rare event one breaks and even that can be pointless if it's on the rear drive side. To top it off it only complicates replacing the broken spoke.


yeah, I only do it on request, which has been once, on a very old school build, and it looked good. IIRC some of the ones in paris-roubaix were tied, and thats a good enuff reason i s'pose if you're going for replicas... 


rocco said:


> The aero advantage of CX-Rays in of itself doesn't hurt nor as far as I know is it canceled out by the traditional box section rim... Campy certainly doesn't think so... Sapim spokes are the spoke of preference with my wheel builder, ... George Noyes certainly prefers to use aero spokes (DT or Sapim) on the wheels he builds with Nemesis rims...


The sapim cx-ray and dt aerolite are simply rolled lazer and revolution spokes - which means they carry the same weight and stiffness as the above spokes... That's it... claimed (small) aero benefit, but otherwise the same. Largely an aesthetic... The main reason builders including myself like to build with them is for a WW spoke, they are easy to tension and true as you can hold them by the blade with the special tool. Round Lazer and Revos are among the worst spokes when it comes to wind up, but for a competent builder its no problem, it just takes longer and is not as fun... personally i'd save the cash.
Part of the problem with elevating prices in this industry is that someone comes out with a product 3x as costly, and people make the assumption that its 3x better. 
I guess as far as recommendations for Nemesis goes my brain works like this: Its not light, the customer knows its a popular Paris-Roubaix wheel, tough as hell rim and obviously likes that: why not accentuate this by using similar spokes, eg, race and comp... IIRC, almost 40% stiffer than aforementioned WW spokes... (maybe i cant do quick math in my head, IIRC 2.0-1.8 is around 83% as stiff as straight 2.0, and the lighter 2.0-1.5 around 62%...)
So bugger the weight i think (around 90-100g), save the cash, maximize the stiffness. Of course, if you want that 100g back, you can opt for lazer or revo and achieve the same thing at 1/3 the cost... 
talking about aero is pointless, at 13mm and completely flat, these rims are probably the least aero still in production. (still funny how the pros don't mind!! P-R speeds are still plenty high!)
cx-rays have their place IMO, eg, edge rims or similar. @ >$800ea cost goes out the window, and aero helps...
ultimately if trying to claw back weight, the OP may be better served on the cheaper and much lighter crono f20 rim... would build a pretty WW alu set...


rocco said:


> P.S. 1520g ain't bad at all for an alloy wheel you can use and abuse every day for years on end. The weight of these wheels probably won't cause a loss in a race


word.

that said my inexpensive 34mm alloy clinchers are the exact same weight coincidentally, and as a race and everyday wheel, work pretty damn well. JMO :thumbsup: 

if someone wants the classic 32h 3x pattern, build it strong.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

wankski said:


> yeah, I only do it on request, which has been once, on a very old school build, and it looked good. IIRC some of the ones in paris-roubaix were tied, and thats a good enuff reason i s'pose if you're going for replicas...
> 
> The sapim cx-ray and dt aerolite are simply rolled lazer and revolution spokes - which means they carry the same weight and stiffness as the above spokes... That's it... claimed (small) aero benefit, but otherwise the same. Largely an aesthetic... The main reason builders including myself like to build with them is for a WW spoke, they are easy to tension and true as you can hold them by the blade with the special tool. Round Lazer and Revos are among the worst spokes when it comes to wind up, but for a competent builder its no problem, it just takes longer and is not as fun... personally i'd save the cash.
> Part of the problem with elevating prices in this industry is that someone comes out with a product 3x as costly, and people make the assumption that its 3x better.
> ...


When I had these wheels built I wanted a strong set that I could enjoy using and abusing every day while bombing down the local twisty, gusty canyon roads without the bad handling characters in cross winds that I experienced with my Bora wheels. I also didn't want to go through the bad experience I had with my last set of POC Mavic Reflexs again... they cracked at the eyelets after less than 2 years of relatively light use.

Originally I was planning on using black Lazers and maybe Races on the rear DS but when I had these wheels built the black CX-Rays were readily available at that moment. I also like being able to easily take the twist out with the special little slotted wrench when truing them 

IMO, Crono f20 rims aren't much of a money savings compared to Nemesis rims and all reports I've read here, at WW and other sites indicate they aren't nearly as good either.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

rocco said:


> Originally I was planning on using black Lazers and maybe Races on the rear DS but when I had these wheels built the black CX-Rays were readily available at that moment. I also like being able to easily take the twist out with the special little slotted wrench when truing them


fair enuff. :thumbsup: 


rocco said:


> IMO, Crono f20 rims aren't much of a money savings compared to Nemesis rims and all reports I've read here, at WW and other sites indicate they aren't nearly as good either.


hmm, probably, certainly not as durable as its 430g brother (vs ~370g), but if you want lighter in the same style, its the only choice... Can't speak from experience, but i'd be surprised if long term truing problems are due to the rim... I've put 70-80kg guys on AC350 rims as everyday and race wheels, and being a clincher and 24mm and the exact same weight, it ostensibly has thinner walls and is more fragile... but they've been great! 

I've read alot against the ACs as well.


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

Thanks for some really smart feedback. I'm a big guy and tend to get a lot of pinch flats, hence the tubulars. Lot's of really nasty roads in the NE. In particular I've flatted out of my favorite race the last 2 years and if nothing else these are going to be the wheels for that race. 
Tire wise I'm pretty sold on the Conti Sprinter Gatorskins. I've been racing them this year and loved their reliability. Didn't like the limited sizes. I don't know of any other tires that have the sidewall protection they have. Plenty of options with good flat protection, but the sidewalls are exposed. Riding the dirt and rocks at Battenkill I got plenty of sidewall cuts, one of which took me out. If anyone knows of a tubie with good sidewall protection in a 25c lemme know.
Anyone know for sure the spoke lengths for DA 7900, Nemesis, 3 cross, 32 hole?


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

rocco said:


> Contacting them can be spotty. They don't answer their phone some times and their voice mail boxes are usually full. I even tried calling them on their 800 number once and got a message saying it was not in service.
> 
> If you're outside of the US then why not order them from somewhere else like All 4 Cycling in Italy?


finally got in touch with them, no stock.

i always thought all4cycling were crazy with the postage but i just checked and it doesnt look too bad... pretty close to pulling the trigger. thanks for the tip


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

made the purchase. build will be dura ace 7800 hubs, 32h nemesis rims, dt comp spokes 2x fromt 3x rear (my standard lacing & spoke setup) and vittoria corsa evo cx 21mm

now to look for appropriate brake pads so i dont trash the braking surface too much


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

Congrats. Just finished my build. Pretty close to what you're doing. DA7800. 2x ft and nondrive, 3x drive side. 32 hole. Sapim laser DB spokes.
You can tell a lot about a wheel by how easily they built. Once they were tensioned, dished and trued the round was nearly spot on. Very fast build.
Still mulling over what tires to use. I really want some tires with sidewall protection. Also want a 25c width.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

evo pave are 24... would look great!


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## Nielly (Sep 21, 2009)

zoikz said:


> Thanks for some really smart feedback. I'm a big guy and tend to get a lot of pinch flats, hence the tubulars. Lot's of really nasty roads in the NE. In particular I've flatted out of my favorite race the last 2 years and if nothing else these are going to be the wheels for that race.
> Tire wise I'm pretty sold on the Conti Sprinter Gatorskins. I've been racing them this year and loved their reliability. Didn't like the limited sizes. I don't know of any other tires that have the sidewall protection they have. Plenty of options with good flat protection, but the sidewalls are exposed. Riding the dirt and rocks at Battenkill I got plenty of sidewall cuts, one of which took me out. If anyone knows of a tubie with good sidewall protection in a 25c lemme know.
> Anyone know for sure the spoke lengths for DA 7900, Nemesis, 3 cross, 32 hole?


Maybe look at Tufo - they make a 23 Elite Ride that has sidewall protection and they also offer a 25 (look on biketiresdirect.com). They aren't cheap and I didn't especially like the Tufo's I tried but that was quite a while ago that I tried them and not this particular tire.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

bump - my wheels are almost good to go
any suggestions for brake pads that will be gentle on the rims?


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

If anyone is interested, I carry the Torelli Triumph rim (made for Torelli by Ambrosio) which is a clincher alternative to the Ambrosio Nemesis. I think it is identical to the Ambrosio balance rim.

Ambrosio rims are really nice. Someone wanted to try my personal wheelset today, and he ended up buying them from me...


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## wildboar (Nov 27, 2008)

valleycyclist said:


> If anyone is interested, I carry the Torelli Triumph rim (made for Torelli by Ambrosio) which is a clincher alternative to the Ambrosio Nemesis. I think it is identical to the Ambrosio balance rim.


Torelli Triumph = Ambrosio Excellence. Also relabeled as the Colnago rims.


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## Nielly (Sep 21, 2009)

alexb618 said:


> bump - my wheels are almost good to go
> any suggestions for brake pads that will be gentle on the rims?


I've found that both swiss stop and kool stop play nice with aluminum rims. Maybe the edge to swiss stop though, not by much though.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

thanks for that, i have heard that swisstop greens are fairly gentle...


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## Nielly (Sep 21, 2009)

They do tend to wear a bit quicker but it's cheaper and easier to replace the pads than the rims.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

Look at these beauties I just built. Torelli Triumph rims, White Industries H2/H3 hubs, and Sapim Race spokes. It isn't the lightest wheelset, but it wasn't built to be light. Front 792g, rear 941g, combined 1733g.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

so i have done a few races with these wheels now, 32h, DA7800 hubs, swisstop green pads and vittoria corsa 21mm tyres

very very happy, super stiff wheels (though thats probably the builder) combined with the vittoria tyres inspires a lot of confidence cornering at high speed

the low profile looks very business like on a carbon frame too, and doesnt make a whole heap of noise like a deep wheelset does so you can surprise the field without the obvious wooshing noises as you come around the outisde


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## duboisdeflute (Sep 10, 2009)

Hi , I can,t find online spoke lenght calculator . the sapim and Dtswiss online calculator don,t give the hubs choice ,( only maviv and DT ) .
the rims are Ambrosio Nemesis tubular rim with Campagnolo Record 9 speed 36 h rear ;and Chorus 1997 32 h front.
some help.?
many thanks.


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## RussellS (Feb 1, 2010)

duboisdeflute said:


> Hi , I can,t find online spoke lenght calculator . the sapim and Dtswiss online calculator don,t give the hubs choice ,( only maviv and DT ) .
> the rims are Ambrosio Nemesis tubular rim with Campagnolo Record 9 speed 36 h rear ;and Chorus 1997 32 h front.
> some help.?
> many thanks.


http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm
Damon Rinard's spocalc has the parts you list.


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## GLBorchert (Sep 4, 2008)

I know this is an old thread but thought I'd respond anyway. I just built up some Ambrosio Nemesis rims with Chris King R45 hubs and Sapim CX Ray spokes in 32-3x configuration. I did the hubs in blue for a modern take on a classic wheelset. 1484 grams total. Glued on some Veloflex Roubaix's (24mm), which has become my favorite tire for general use.
Best wheels I've ever ridden, and I own some Mavic Ultimates (which I also like) I paid more than $3000 for. Ride quality is just phenomenal, they corner with the best, and they climb well too. 
The funny thing is that people spend far more for commercially-made wheels, and end up with crap by comparison.


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## addictR1 (Jun 19, 2012)

alexb618 said:


> so i have done a few races with these wheels now, 32h, DA7800 hubs, swisstop green pads and vittoria corsa 21mm tyres
> 
> very very happy, super stiff wheels (though thats probably the builder) combined with the vittoria tyres inspires a lot of confidence cornering at high speed
> 
> the low profile looks very business like on a carbon frame too, and doesnt make a whole heap of noise like a deep wheelset does so you can surprise the field without the obvious wooshing noises as you come around the outisde


sorry to bring back this thread.. but would like to know how your wheelset is built. i'm looking to get the nemesis rim and thinking to either use DT240 hubs or some DA hubs. since this post has been a while, i'm thinking to also use CX Rays spokes as well.

thoughts on what lacing pattern to use? i weigh about 70Kg. thanks~


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I'd recommend the DT over the current Dura Ace for 11 speed. The flange spacing really suffers and tension on the left is comparatively low. Since you can't crank down the tension that high on Nemesis rims I don't think it's enough without using some sort of thread lock (chemical or mechanical). 

I'd also recommend saving the money and sticking with round, double butted spokes. The cost upgrade to CX-Rays will not improve the wheels in any way but looks. These are not aero wheels by any stretch.


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## addictR1 (Jun 19, 2012)

Ergott, thanks for the tip. Then I'll go with DT240s road hubs 32H. For spokes which version of the double butt round would be the lightest one you'd recommend?


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