# 2007 Tarmac pro bettini vs. 2010 sl3 frames



## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Ok, just when you've got it all figured out, another option shows up. Was talking to you guys about an expert bike vs. getting an sl3 frame. You convinced me to go with the 2010 
sl3 frame. I was talking about it with a friend at work and he ended up offering to sell me his 2007 Tarmac pro Bettini frame for $1000. This guy has bike OCD and takes insane care of his stuff. So the question is, how does the 2007 bettini compare to the 2010 SL3 frame for a difference of about $2200?

If the bettini frame is anywhere close I could stand to get some great wheels and goodies!

What do you say?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Ok, just when you've got it all figured out, another option shows up. Was talking to you guys about an expert bike vs. getting an sl3 frame. You convinced me to go with the 2010
> sl3 frame. I was talking about it with a friend at work and he ended up offering to sell me his 2007 Tarmac pro Bettini frame for $1000. This guy has bike OCD and takes insane care of his stuff. So the question is, how does the 2007 bettini compare to the 2010 SL3 frame for a difference of about $2200?
> 
> If the bettini frame is anywhere close I could stand to get some great wheels and goodies!
> ...


IMO buying used CF is not worth the risk. Remember, no warranty so if ever there's a problem with that frameset the best you can hope for is working a deal with Spec on a crash replacement (even though it wasn't crashed). Even if the seller takes excellent care of his bikes, that frameset could still suffer a failure and if it does, you're out $1K. Used alu or steel? Sure, why not. At least you're likely to see any defects. CF, no way. 

BTW, I forget what forum I saw it in but there's at least one thread going about how a buyer went the used CF route, it failed and he's out the money.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Yeh, that is a major concern. I'm still curious about the difference in frames vs price.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Yeh, that is a major concern. I'm still curious about the difference in frames vs price.


If you're talking 'on paper' differences you could go to the bike archive and check the specs for the '07. If you're talking subjective (ride/ handling) differences then someone has to come along that's got some saddle time on both. I'm thinking there aren't many.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Yep, well if anyone out there has been on the 07 tarmac pro maybe you can weigh in, I think we know what the sl3 crowd will say.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

The 8r carbon in that 2007 Pro has been pushed all the way down to the base Tarmac model Elite in the 2010 line-up. Now there's more to frames than just material, but this gives some indication as to how much has changed and trickled down in 3 years. I'm sure that the Bettini is a nice frame and will build up into a nice bike, but it sure isn't an SL3. $1000 is probably a little on the high side in my opinion, though maybe justified if the condition is "as new". If this was a really close friend maybe the warranty wouldn't be such an issue because your friend could pursue any warranty claim on your behalf.

Only you can decide whether the extra $2200 is worth it - that's a lot of money and I couldn't justify that on a frame. Or you could split the difference and get a new Pro SL frame-set.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Ha! funny you should mention that. I have decided against the Bettini frame for that reason, why not get the latest greatest. What you said is exactly what I was thinking.......what about the Tarmac Pro sl frame? it's $1900. That would save me $1000 for goodies. Now the question becomes how does the 2010 Tarmac Pro SL frame compare to the mighty SL3 ????


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Ha! funny you should mention that. I have decided against the Bettini frame for that reason, why not get the latest greatest. What you said is exactly what I was thinking.......*what about the Tarmac Pro sl frame?* it's $1900. That would save me $1000 for goodies. Now the question becomes how does the 2010 Tarmac Pro SL frame compare to the mighty SL3 ????


IMO that's an excellent option. I'm admittedly "frugal", so I'd ask myself if the SL3 were $1,000 better. I'd doubt it.


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## mjdwyer23 (Mar 18, 2009)

The Pro SL has the same geometry as last year's SL2. Very nice bike.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

The SL3 is 11r carbon layup and the Pro SL is 10r carbon layup - about 100 grams difference for the frame. I doubt you would even notice that. I'd be willing to bet that stiffness and riding quality are on par with each other too. Sounds like you have your bike!


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Well, I rode the 2009 SL3 this morning. Had it for about 1.5 hours. Rode it down Hawthorne blvd to the coast (2 miles). It was the LBS owners personal bike. He has Record 11 with a compact and an 11/28. I spun it out at about 35 mph going down that hill. I rode it around the coast a bit and hit some decent cracks in the road. It was almost as comfy as a Roubaix, but more comfortable than the Tarmac expert and my Trek 5.5 madone. I was very pleased with the ride quality. Wasn't to thrilled with the campy though. I'm thinking the ride would be just a tad better than the Pro SL, but with that extra $1000 bucks I could get my Ksyrium SL's. I see I have some thinking to do. I can't buy until Feb/March anyway, so it will either be the 2011 frames or if anything on sale of the 2010's are left.


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

I had that same exact frame, ended up cracking my Bettini. Good thing that the frame was under warranty. Specialized gave me a 10r tarmac pro frame. In my opinion, I've noticed a big difference in quality of ride.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

Why all the hand wringing now if you aren't even planning on making your purchase for almost a year? Seems a little premature to me. Things may change drastically from today until next March/April in any number of circumstances.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Hands not be wrung. Have plenty of time to figure out best option. I just know that it takes a while to really find what might be the best option. There are a ton of nice bikes out there. So, as for right now, I seem to have it narrowed down to either an S-Works frame or maybe a Tarmac Expert bike. Now, if something else comes along to challange this choice in the mean time, I'll have the luxury of comparing it and not feeling like I have to choose over night. Because I know when the money is there, I want to move on what I want, not have to make myself nuts wondering which bike out there shoud I buy.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Hands not be wrung. Have plenty of time to figure out best option. I just know that it takes a while to really find what might be the best option. There are a ton of nice bikes out there. So, as for right now, I seem to have it narrowed down to either an S-Works frame or maybe a Tarmac Expert bike. Now, if something else comes along to challange this choice in the mean time, I'll have the luxury of comparing it and not feeling like I have to choose over night. Because I know when the money is there, I want to move on what I want, not have to make myself nuts wondering which bike out there shoud I buy.


I'm not being critical here, because I (casually) spent the better part of two years shopping for my next bike, but chances are good that you'll change your mind a few times before the 11 months is up. 

I rode a Trek 5.2 Pro and came home waxing poetic over it being the best bike I ever rode, but by the third test ride I liked it less... and less. Fast forward a few months and home I came with a Tarmac Comp. 

The moral of the story is that until you get out and start riding bikes you really won't have settled on the finalist. If you're like me, you'll read and research and read some more till all the specs become a blur, but the test rides clear that away and you're left with riding impressions. I think those impressions will ultimately decide this for you.

Fast forward 11 months. Tarmac? Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't really matter. What matters is ending up with the right bike for you.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

i'm on a pro sl with fact 10 cf. It is an exceptional frameset. the geometry is wonderful, and I don't see the Sworks sl3 being "worth it" if you're not going to include a top tier group, top tier wheels, and top tier components. I'm runningPro SL with 08 Record, with assaults, and it is durable, just a tick under 16lbs.
The value of the pro sl is strong! I find it comparable to Cannondale, and Trek., but over a thousand dollars less. The closest competitor value wise would be a tcr advance.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

tanner3155 said:


> Hands not be wrung. Have plenty of time to figure out best option. I just know that it takes a while to really find what might be the best option. There are a ton of nice bikes out there. So, as for right now, I seem to have it narrowed down to either an S-Works frame or maybe a Tarmac Expert bike. Now, if something else comes along to challange this choice in the mean time, I'll have the luxury of comparing it and not feeling like I have to choose over night. Because I know when the money is there, I want to move on what I want, not have to make myself nuts wondering which bike out there shoud I buy.


Sure you were. Should I buy this frame? Should I move my components from this bike to this bike? Hey, I can buy this Bettini frame . . . . You ask the opinion of people on the forum as if the purchase is impending and then you drop the "well, I won't actually be buying it until next March/April." YOU can do a lot of research YOURSELF between now and then and figure out what YOU want to do. People on the forum like helping but if it's just an exercise then it's a waste of time. Probably would have been helpful up front to tell people that you have a year until you buy the bike/frame. That probably would have garnered vastly different responses from the forum participants. Instead, you made it seem as though this was on the immediate horizon.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Doh! Well, I didn't mean to waste your time. I still feel that I've narrowed it down to the Specialized model with the help of your opinions here. Didn't think the fact that it was going to be purchased in 9 months would matter all that much.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Didn't think the fact that it was going to be purchased in 9 months would matter all that much.


For a start there will be 2011 bikes and frames - prices, specs and availability will differ.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

ukbloke said:


> For a start there will be 2011 bikes and frames - prices, specs and availability will differ.


Precisely! Which is why it would be more prudent to start the discussion after to 2011 bikes hit the market. Shoot, if we're talking March/April 2011 as a purchase date why not wait a few more months when the 2012 bikes may start hitting the market? I've read some speculation on the Specialized Mountain Bike forum that Specialized may start releasing certain models of their 2011 bikes early because of the real shortage of certain models. If that holds true in 2011 then there is always the possibility that early releases of the 2012 bikes may occur in 2011.

One may ask why inquiring about a certain bike 9 to 11 months before purchasing it is absurd. Well, as ukbloke so aptly pointed out the frame layup may change, the components may change, prices will most certainly change and, possibly, certain levels of bikes may be discontinued. I wouldn't be suprised if, for example, the baseline Specialized Roubaix doesn't disappear in the near future. The Tarmac doesn't have a model below the Elite and it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have a Roubaix model below the Elite. Which is why I originally wrote that a WHOLE lot can change in the course of a year.

For what it's worth, 90% of this entire discussion has been rendered useless because so many of the assumptions that were used to answer your question(s) are basically mute because many of the posters were basing your question on current or failry recent information. That's like asking what the unemployment rate will be in 9 to 11 months based upon what has happened in the last year.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

I've heard a few accounts that the 2011's will hit the lbs by late June. I guess I'll stop asking questions for 2 months so as not to cause such a fuss.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

tanner3155 said:


> I've heard a few accounts that the 2011's will hit the lbs by late June. I guess I'll stop asking questions for 2 months so as not to cause such a fuss.


Good! I hope your purchasing window does move up to the next couple of months. However, if you wait until the Tour de France you should be able to get your hands on a 2010 for a decent price. Specialized and Trek discounts their bikes during the TdF in order to move the current stock for the next model year bikes. You should try to take advantage of this. I did last year and got my Roubaix for quite a bit less and I mean darn near $1,000 less.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Ahhhh RATS Rosborn! you ruined my day! I wish I had the dough this July to buy during the tour, but I'd have to wait until next years tour. Fact is I'm waiting for next years tax return which I get early, usually in Feb- early March. However, I was referring to the fact that we'll know what the 2011's are all about hopefully in a couple months. I secretly hoping there may still be some 2010's left somewhere at a good deal, but I think they're almost gone now????


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Fact is I'm waiting for next years tax return which I get early, usually in Feb- early March.


If you know that you are getting a big refund on 2010 taxes, why don't you adjust your withholdings appropriately and collect the additional money from each pay check? I don't see any reason to give the IRS a tax-free loan of my money for up to a year. In fact, the under-payment penalty fees are so benign you might as well arrange to be in arrears (assuming you can manage your cash flow appropriately).


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

tanner3155 said:


> Ahhhh RATS Rosborn! you ruined my day! I wish I had the dough this July to buy during the tour, but I'd have to wait until next years tour. Fact is I'm waiting for next years tax return which I get early, usually in Feb- early March. However, I was referring to the fact that we'll know what the 2011's are all about hopefully in a couple months. I secretly hoping there may still be some 2010's left somewhere at a good deal, but I think they're almost gone now????


Crap. Now you're going to have that turd of a Madone until you get your Tarmac. Life sucks. In another thread you mentioned that the bike shop put you on a 60 cm bike but that you really needed a 56/58 cm bike. Anything at all you can do with fore/aft adjustment of the seat or stem change out to make the fit better until you have the funds for the new bike? I mean, dude, you spent a hell of a lot of money on that Madone. By the way, what year is it? I also wonder why you didn't notice the poor fit right away and return the bike for a properly fitted one? Were you just trying to make it work and figure that your body would adjust to it?


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

ukbloke said:


> If you know that you are getting a big refund on 2010 taxes, why don't you adjust your withholdings appropriately and collect the additional money from each pay check? I don't see any reason to give the IRS a tax-free loan of my money for up to a year. In fact, the under-payment penalty fees are so benign you might as well arrange to be in arrears (assuming you can manage your cash flow appropriately).


Yes, believe it or not I understand all of that. But we have found that the reality of it all is that money dissapears like magic, and when you get that $3000 tax return its just plain nice! I know what you're saying though.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

rosborn said:


> Crap. Now you're going to have that turd of a Madone until you get your Tarmac. Life sucks. In another thread you mentioned that the bike shop put you on a 60 cm bike but that you really needed a 56/58 cm bike. Anything at all you can do with fore/aft adjustment of the seat or stem change out to make the fit better until you have the funds for the new bike? I mean, dude, you spent a hell of a lot of money on that Madone. By the way, what year is it? I also wonder why you didn't notice the poor fit right away and return the bike for a properly fitted one? Were you just trying to make it work and figure that your body would adjust to it?



Being a mountain biker I hadn't had any experience with road bikes. After I moved away from my home near all the trails, I rode less and less, and grew more and more. I bought my buddies Trek 5.5 because he had back issues, and I had weight issues. I got a great price $1300. When I first rode it, it felt ok but what did I know about road bike fit? He's 6'2 ish and I'm 5'11". At the time I didn't know any better. Recently I took it to the lbs and got fitted. Changed the saddle and moved it forward. Replaced the 130mm stem with a 90mm (if I recall correctly). Got pedal extensions cause my knees were out of line. So, the lbs told me that the height is actually ok now, but still a little far of a reach than I really need. So that's the whole motivation for a new bike, the one I have would have been just fine, but I know that it's just a little too big for me. it's a 60cm and I'm a 5'11" guy. But it's working as well as it can for now.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

tanner3155 said:


> Being a mountain biker I hadn't had any experience with road bikes. After I moved away from my home near all the trails, I rode less and less, and grew more and more. I bought my buddies Trek 5.5 because he had back issues, and I had weight issues. I got a great price $1300. When I first rode it, it felt ok but what did I know about road bike fit? He's 6'2 ish and I'm 5'11". At the time I didn't know any better. Recently I took it to the lbs and got fitted. Changed the saddle and moved it forward. Replaced the 130mm stem with a 90mm (if I recall correctly). Got pedal extensions cause my knees were out of line. So, the lbs told me that the height is actually ok now, but still a little far of a reach than I really need. So that's the whole motivation for a new bike, the one I have would have been just fine, but I know that it's just a little too big for me. it's a 60cm and I'm a 5'11" guy. But it's working as well as it can for now.


I understand completely. I'm 6' 3" and I don't even ride a 60cm. I'm sorry. $1,300 is a great price for a Madone 5.5 but not if it doesn't fit you. Have you considered buying a bike off of Craiglist - a bike that will fit you? You know, just to ride until you can get your dream bike? How about buying a new but cheaper road bike, like the Allez, just so you can ride something that fits you properly?

You're right about the size you need. At 5' 11" you are at the top end of the 56cm and at the shorter end of the 58cm. Even with the adjustments that the LBS has made the frame is just too damn big for you. You must feel like you're in a Hummer when you want to be in a Ferrari.

I'm sorry about giving you a hard time. I can understand fully now why you want to make sure you get the right bike. Give Craigslist a look and see if you can't find the proper frame sized bike so you can at least ride the way you should be riding.

Rob


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Wow, this must be the thread where all the tall guys hang out! I'm 6'5" and riding a 2009 Tarmac Pro SL, size 58. Admittedly I am pushing the envelope with that sizing - my natural size would have been a 61 but I decided to drop down a size to get the shorter top tube and bring in the reach.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Thanks. Hmmmm, I guess I could see what I could get for the Trek by looking for similar bikes for sale, then see what's available in a smaller size. I don't know, but the bike is actually pretty comfortable now and it rides nice. Love the DA shifiting and brakes and it's pretty responsive. I'll have to give that some thought. I've also got a few hunderd tied up in it because of the fit and parts. Thanks for the idea though, I'll check it out.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

tanner3155 said:


> Thanks. Hmmmm, I guess I could see what I could get for the Trek by looking for similar bikes for sale, then see what's available in a smaller size. I don't know, but the bike is actually pretty comfortable now and it rides nice. Love the DA shifiting and brakes and it's pretty responsive. I'll have to give that some thought. I've also got a few hunderd tied up in it because of the fit and parts. Thanks for the idea though, I'll check it out.


Tanner,

Okay, I believe you. Then why do you want to get rid of it? Why do you want a Tarmac? I think PJ pointed out that the Madone and the Tarmac are virtually identical in geometry. If the Madone fits you well and is comfortable why would you want to get a Tarmac?

Rob


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Well you said it best, it is too big for me. It fits much better than it did before the fitting, but like you said about the frame being too big, there's nothing I can do to quite make the reach work perfect. Put it this way, I'm used to it, but when I test rode the 58cm tarmac expert and roubaix expert I suddenly knew what a perfect fit was like. No reaching, just everything right. Also, on the smaller frame I could swear it felt like more power from each pedal stroke was being realized. Maybe that was placebo effect but everything just seemed right.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

tanner3155 said:


> Well you said it best, it is too big for me. It fits much better than it did before the fitting, but like you said about the frame being too big, there's nothing I can do to quite make the reach work perfect. Put it this way, I'm used to it, but when I test rode the 58cm tarmac expert and roubaix expert I suddenly knew what a perfect fit was like. No reaching, just everything right. Also, on the smaller frame I could swear it felt like more power from each pedal stroke was being realized. Maybe that was placebo effect but everything just seemed right.


Then I would search for that frame size asap. Your riding will suffer until you do find the right frame size.

Rob


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Well you said it best,* it is too big for me*. It fits much better than it did before the fitting, but *like you said about the frame being too big, there's nothing I can do to quite make the reach work perfect.* Put it this way, I'm used to it, but when I test rode the 58cm tarmac expert and roubaix expert I suddenly knew what a perfect fit was like. No reaching, just everything right. Also, on the smaller frame I could swear it felt like more power from each pedal stroke was being realized. *Maybe that was placebo effect* but everything just seemed right.


Sorry to inject my thoughts here, but...
This is the classic case of _making_ a bike fit rather than_ tweaking _fit. Because you started with the wrong size frame, the fitter was left with no choice but to minimize reach by installing a 90mm stem, probably along with making compromises to saddle adjustments that were less than optimal. The end result is a bike that sorta fits but likely strayed from a 40/60 f/r weight distribution, which can affect handling - no matter the bikes geo.

Conversely, starting with a correctly sized bike puts the rider in a near ideal position from the start, so all that's required are minor adjustments to saddle and bars. Correct weight distribution (thus, handling) is preserved. So, no placebo effect.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

And there ya have it! They made the bike fit... kinda ...to buy a little time until it's dream bike time.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> Sorry to inject my thoughts here, but...
> This is the classic case of _making_ a bike fit rather than_ tweaking _fit. Because you started with the wrong size frame, the fitter was left with no choice but to minimize reach by installing a 90mm stem, probably along with making compromises to saddle adjustments that were less than optimal. The end result is a bike that sorta fits but likely strayed from a 40/60 f/r weight distribution, which can affect handling - no matter the bikes geo.
> 
> Conversely, starting with a correctly sized bike puts the rider in a near ideal position from the start, so all that's required are minor adjustments to saddle and bars. Correct weight distribution (thus, handling) is preserved. So, no placebo effect.


Something you said here caught my attention. You are saying 40/60 front/rear. Before the fit I was probably a 65/35. My hands were killing me, and my neck. After the fit I'd say I'm probably a 45/ 55, much more confy with much less pressure on my hands but more on my butt.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Something you said here caught my attention. You are saying 40/60 front/rear. Before the fit I was probably a 65/35. My hands were killing me, and my neck. After the fit I'd say I'm probably a 45/ 55, much more confy with much less pressure on my hands but more on my butt.


If you mean 65 front/ 35 rear, I doubt your initial (bad) fit strayed that far from the 40/60 f/r guideline. But yes, add appreciable weight up front and that weight is borne by the arms and hands. If you've attained 45/55 with your current setup, you're still in an acceptable range, but how the fitter got you there (by necessity) may not have been ideal - like straying from your 'optimal' KOPS, but that's a guess.


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## porterhouse (Jan 27, 2009)

El Caballito said:


> I had that same exact frame, ended up cracking my Bettini. Good thing that the frame was under warranty. Specialized gave me a 10r tarmac pro frame. In my opinion, I've noticed a big difference in quality of ride.


Where did it crack?

I have the same frame and and recently noticed some tiny cracks in the clearcoat right in front of the seat clamp where the top tube joins the seat tube, Need to get it in for inspection...


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## h2o-x (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't know that someone who is 5'11" is on the upper end of a 56 cm bike. I'm 5'12" on the nose, with a 32" inseam, and have always ridden a 56 or 57cm bike. I have a 56 cm Cervelo R3 and am going to pick up a 56 cm Tarmac Pro SL tonight. I rode the 58 cm Tarmac and R3 and it felt like I was driving a semi compared to the 56. 

Both the Tarmac and the R3 have 56.5 cm top tube and a size 11 stem feels great to me. 

When I worked in shops, I saw a lot of guys want to buy their bikes too damn big. I remember a 5'8" customer insisting that he had to have 56 cm Kestrel 4000. After trying to talk him into at the biggest a 54 cm, he bought the 56. He then sent his equally tall friend in to buy the same bike in the same size. They both had their boys resting on the top tubes and 8-9cm Cinelli XA stems, but they were happy to have expensive bikes with Dura Ace gruppos.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

h2o-x said:


> 5'12"


That's a funny way of putting it - I guess I'm 5'17" then!


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## h2o-x (Aug 8, 2008)

5'17" is a LOT taller than 6'5"... at least it sounds that way to me.


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