# Armstrong v. Hamilton accidental showdown



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...spen-restaurant-after-Armstrong-argument.aspx

I guess this belongs in Doping Forum?


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

That's just disappointing. Lance just wanted to talk to his old buddy...


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Notice how quickly it became a "he said, I said," argument. Even in the presence of witnesses.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

So if you're not a friend of Lance you can't eat there? Guess that's one Aspen restaurant I can avoid this summer. The better restaurants are down valley anyway.


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## C6Rider (Nov 15, 2008)

*typical Lance*



xjbaylor said:


> That's just disappointing.



yes, very disappointing, but not surprising, either.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I was wondering when these two would cross paths since they both live in Colorado. 

I'm picturing a restraining order in the future.


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## PDex (Mar 23, 2004)

heathb said:


> I was wondering when these two would cross paths since they both live in Colorado.
> 
> I'm picturing a restraining order in the future.


Boulder (Hamilton) and Aspen (Armstrong) are 200 miles from each other.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Mootsie said:


> So if you're not a friend of Lance you can't eat there? Guess that's one Aspen restaurant I can avoid this summer. The better restaurants are down valley anyway.


Probably cost you $100/person to eat there anyway.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

It's really sad that an adult would act that way.

It's also sad that very few would be surprised if Hamilton's account were true.

Len


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Just became more of a fan of Hamilton and Vaughters.

Less of a fan of Lance... But I really can't stand the guy anyway, so I guess it's irrelevant.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Sounds like JV has already made his appearance for the grand jury.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

I really would have loved to be there to see that, actually, but I do my best to avoid poseur restaurants with pretentious names.
I had a good chuckle at JV's twitter comment: "bullies have a special place in my little black heart" He certainly has a way with words.


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## Durt (Jul 28, 2008)

If true, could LA's behavior be construed as witness intimidation?


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Durt said:


> If true, could LA's behavior be construed as witness intimidation?


He either isn't following the advice of his lawyers or they aren't doing a good job of advising him. With witnesses piling up against him, the last thing he should be doing is confronting or "blocking the path" of one of his accusers in front of a restaurant full of people. Surely some of them are Armstrong's friends, but many of them are probably not. And it would take the feds only a couple of days to track down everyone there at the time of the incident through credit card receipts and and complete their interviews.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Mootsie said:


> So if you're not a friend of Lance you can't eat there? Guess that's one Aspen restaurant I can avoid this summer. The better restaurants are down valley anyway.


Got any recommendations? 

I'm flying out there one month from tomorrow for a short vacation with my dad. I'm hoping to try to climb North Maroon Peak. And in the evenings I'll be looking for great food in restaurants with a great atmosphere.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Hamilton was "shaken" by the event was he? If so he needs to get in to more bar room brawls and HTFU.


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## gregario (Nov 19, 2001)

I thought for years that Armstrong was a bully. I can stand that guy less and less.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Hamilton doesn't want to admit it, but Armstrong followed him into the bathroom and twisted his arm, and made him cry. After giving him an Atomic Wedgie, Armstrong stuck Hamilton's head into the toilet and gave him a swirley.

Don't get Armstrong ticked off. Specially if you are a little guy like Hamilton.

"Hamilton was "shaken" by the event?? "

I have a feeling that he "wet" himself.

Armstrong is MY type of guy.

The above May, or May not be true......Nobody's talking.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Hamilton doesn't want to admit it, but Armstrong followed him into the bathroom and twisted his arm, and made him cry. After giving him an Atomic Wedgie, Armstrong stuck Hamilton's head into the toilet and gave him a swirley.
> 
> Don't get Armstrong ticked off. Specially if you are a little guy like Hamilton.
> 
> ...


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

I'd have some words for Hamilton as well. What's wrong with a little chat? He had no problem talking publicly to millions of people. If he wants to give private testimony, that's one thing, but he was brave enough to go public with all kinds of dirt. Now be brave enough and tell the guy whom you publicly accused why. I'm indifferent about Lance, but I would have done the same thing.


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## enac (Aug 24, 2007)

So Lance Armstrong is a STALKER now?


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

Gatorback said:


> Got any recommendations?
> 
> I'm flying out there one month from tomorrow for a short vacation with my dad. I'm hoping to try to climb North Maroon Peak. And in the evenings I'll be looking for great food in restaurants with a great atmosphere.


Six89 in Carbondale.


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## ragweed (Jan 2, 2009)

*Tyler Hamilton's lawyers notify feds*

This is an interesting update by Bonnie Ford, including some details on what transpired as told by Tyler's attorney:


> ". . . Armstrong repeatedly asked how much he had been paid to do the television interview, and added that his legal team would "(expletive) destroy you," "tear you apart on the witness stand," and "make your life a living (expletive) hell."


And as to the possible consequences of LA's alleged actions:


> Per a former Federal prosecutor, ""This, to me, is a game-changer." A charge of witness tampering could also affect any statute of limitations issues prosecutors might be facing by extending the timeline forward to the present day, Cutler added.


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## superjesus (Jul 26, 2010)

I like this Yahoo blogger's take on the situation (via Yahoo!)



> So, to sum up, Hamilton narcs on Armstrong on national television, hasn't spoken to him since then, goes to a city in which he lives, eats at one of his main hangouts and then is surprised when he runs into him and there's a minor confrontation? Bro, I amicably broke up with a girl 10 years ago and still dodge the coffee shop she used to frequent. And she moved out of the state in 2006! If you don't want to run into Lance, avoid the places you know he'll be. If you don't heed that advice, understand that it's going to lead to some conflict.


I'm certainly not trying to take Lance's side, but perhaps Hamilton's choice in dining establishments was bit naive.


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## garbec (Mar 3, 2006)

I thought the Weiner incident was going on in New York.??


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## ashpelham (Jan 19, 2006)

Neither of these guys weighs more than, what, 160 lbs wet? Armstrong might be a bit chunkier now, but TH is just a lightweight, no two ways about it. So, the thought of this confrontation sort of makes me giggle. 
FYI, I'm 6'1 and about 200, minus or plus what dinner was. Not that lightweight guys can't be tough...Seen lots of scrappy, kick ass men smaller than these two. 

Still, I just get a chuckle thinking about it...Pussies.


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## Rage_Cycling (Dec 30, 2009)

Snitches get Stitches is that what Lance said to him? lol


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*And the soap opera continues......*



ragweed said:


> This is an interesting update by Bonnie Ford, including some details on what transpired as told by Tyler's attorney:
> 
> 
> And as to the possible consequences of LA's alleged actions:


Did Lance say "Whazzup?" to Hamilton passing outside the men's room, and did Hamilton got upset, question his bill rudely with the waiter, who finally told Hamilton he wasn't welcome there? Did Hamilton then tell journalists Lance threatened to "destroy him" in court? Was Hamilton spreading more half truths or outright lies to the press, in his ongoing effort to conquer his guilt for doping and being stripped of his Olympic championship, which destroyed his career as a professional bike racer?

Will the arrogant, supremely self-confident Armstrong, ruthless winner of 7 straight TDF victories, continue to act as victim of innuendo, unsubstantiated, and perhaps lies, to bring him down with Hamilton and the other confessed dopers? Will those eager to take Lance down pit him against a charge of "witness intimidation" in his brief exchange with Hamilton? Will the restauranteur's testimony be believed over Hamilton's description of Lance's threats?

Stay tuned for the next heart wrenching episode, as the world turns!


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Bring out the pop corn!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Duplicate post


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

superjesus said:


> I like this Yahoo blogger's take on the situation (via Yahoo!)
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certainly not trying to take Lance's side, but perhaps Hamilton's choice in dining establishments was bit naive.


Is there a list of "Lance Hangouts" available at the Tourist office?


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## peabody (Oct 17, 2005)

ashpelham said:


> Neither of these guys weighs more than, what, 160 lbs wet? Armstrong might be a bit chunkier now, but TH is just a lightweight, no two ways about it. So, the thought of this confrontation sort of makes me giggle.
> FYI, I'm 6'1 and about 200, minus or plus what dinner was. Not that lightweight guys can't be tough...Seen lots of scrappy, kick ass men smaller than these two.
> 
> Still, I just get a chuckle thinking about it...Pussies.


wow you're huge


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Interesting that the only witness so far to refute Hamilton's account is described as a personal friend of Armstrong as well as co-owner of the restaurant.

Couple that with this bit and you have to wonder how credible her version is...



> After a few minutes, Hamilton told Manderson that he returned to his friends at the table, where the waiter who had taken their order made it clear he was no longer welcome. They finished their coffee and dessert and left. Larner said she spoke to Hamilton on his way out and asked him never to come back because people at his table had been rude to her staff and failed to tip. (Hamilton told Manderson there was a "misunderstanding" about the bill that was resolved before he and his friends left.)


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## slamy (Mar 15, 2004)

ashpelham said:


> Neither of these guys weighs more than, what, 160 lbs wet? Armstrong might be a bit chunkier now, but TH is just a lightweight, no two ways about it. So, the thought of this confrontation sort of makes me giggle.
> FYI, I'm 6'1 and about 200, minus or plus what dinner was. Not that lightweight guys can't be tough...Seen lots of scrappy, kick ass men smaller than these two.
> 
> Still, I just get a chuckle thinking about it...Pussies.


Yeah you sound tough. I bet a 5'6 guy named Pacquiao would pummel you. Some of the toughest guys I've ever met were small. Most guys who are big never have to fight since they think they can intimidate with their size. But when they run into someone who is tough, they get their asses kicked. 

BTW Lance is a punk and I hope he gets all that is coming to him. Enjoy the witness tampering charge Lance; real smooth.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

ultimobici said:


> Interesting that the only witness so far to refute Hamilton's account is described as a personal friend of Armstrong as well as co-owner of the restaurant.
> 
> Couple that with this bit and you have to wonder how credible her version is...


Seems kind of odd that others were apparently asses to the wait staff (provoked or unprovoked) yet Hamilton is somehow banned because he happened to bump into Armstrong outside the restroom and at least according to the owner nothing happened.

I wonder how many times this owner of a high-end restaurant in Aspen has **** on some relative nobody to placate a star of one sort or another?


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## 3rensho (Aug 26, 2003)

Much facepalming among the LA legal team without a doubt. IF valid, this seems like witness intimidation right? I mean, if I had a pending investigation swirling around me for stealing money from my company and I engage a potential witness (like a former co-worker, maybe) in public with a hostile confrontation, wouldn't that look REALLY bad for me? Size, pride, and manhood aside, this is a really bad idea. 
Is Lance this stupid? Is it ego? Regardless of the truth, reports like this go a long way to make LA look like he's melting down. 

OK, now who had the baked Alaska? Oh, they left? Well shoot. AND no TIP? those bstrds.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

ragweed said:


> This is an interesting update by Bonnie Ford, including some details on what transpired as told by Tyler's attorney:
> 
> 
> And as to the possible consequences of LA's alleged actions:


It's an interesting update for sure, but Hamilton's attorney is not exactly an unbiased party. The closest we have to an unbiased observation that I can find so far is from the VeloNation article, by Outside editor Abe Streep. We'll see how this goes.



> Hamilton was in Aspen leading bike rides at an annual summit hosted by Outside. Hamilton mistakenly believed Armstrong to be out of town and went to the Cache Cache restaurant to eat. According to Outside Online, the Texan happened to be there and blocked Hamilton’s path when he exited the bathroom.
> 
> “He wanted to get into it,” Outside magazine editor Abe Streep reported Hamilton as telling him. “I was like, ‘Let’s step outside and talk away from the crowd, but he wouldn’t. He said, ‘No one cares.’"
> 
> ...


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

superjesus said:


> I like this Yahoo blogger's take on the situation (via Yahoo!)
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certainly not trying to take Lance's side, but perhaps Hamilton's choice in dining establishments was bit naive.


Or an outright setup.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ultimobici said:


> Interesting that the only witness so far to refute Hamilton's account is described as a personal friend of Armstrong as well as co-owner of the restaurant.
> 
> Couple that with this bit and you have to wonder how credible her version is...


so he was told to p!ss off and then they complain he did not tip?


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## bnoojin (Mar 24, 2002)

*so...*

Tyler Hamilton, Lance Armstrong and their legal teams walk into a bar...


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## tron (Jul 18, 2004)

I'm certainly not trying to take Lance's side, but perhaps Hamilton's choice in dining establishments was bit naive.[/QUOTE]

Sure but lance was conducting a charity ride in Tennessee that day. Hamilton was doing something with Outside magazine which would have been known to the general public. He might not even have had a choice of restaurants. In any event, it was stupid for Lance to confront him publicly like this even if Hamilton was looking for it. 

The other funny comment i read somewhere was that Hamilton was asked to leave because his table was rude and didnt tip. Funny since they were asked to leave during their meal and the tip wouldnt have been known. I cant imagine they would expect a tip after banning someone for life.


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

Durt said:


> If true, could LA's behavior be construed as witness intimidation?


Of course not. Hamilton made a breakaway to the men's room and Lance "was simply following his wheel".


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## jlgoodin78 (Dec 13, 2007)

*His Lanceness*

Looks like LA has an interesting way of chasing tail. A public restroom. Is a tap of the foot the next thing we'll be hearing about?

Seriously, though, LA was at a charity ride earlier in the day, it's not as if Hamilton had his schedule to know he'd be back in Aspen, and it's a public restaurant. I've ran into people very awkwardly before and the thing you do is just ignore the situation, let your blood boil a bit, and remain calm enough to let it pass, being the bigger person and not making a scene. I'd think that to be even more true in this situation given the celebrity attention, the investigation, and the sure fire explosiveness that could ensue with such an awkward encounter. Sure, it could be true that there was a certain element of set-up on Hamilton's part as some have suggested, but I've seen plenty of mice steal the cheese and leave the trap set. Surely LA and his legal/publicity handlers are smart enough to coach him to gaining the upper hand and stealing the cheese in a sense, but it doesn't appear to have happened in this case.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Witnesses anyone???

On one hand, you've got one guy who has never been caught in a lie.
On the other, you have a confirmed, and admitted liar, and doper

.


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## theo3000 (Oct 5, 2010)

Armstrong is a lot of things, good and bad; but smart isn't one of them.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Shhh....OMERTA!!


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Either LA needs to fire his entire legal team for not giving him adequate advice or LA is one of the biggest morons around. 

What he just did makes for a "slam dunk" case for the investigators. Pivotal turning point. He's done.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Mootsie said:


> Six89 in Carbondale.


Thanks for the tip. I'll look it up when I'm out there. (Assuming I don't get caught up in some crossfire and end up in the hospital or something.)


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

Gatorback said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'll look it up when I'm out there. (Assuming I don't get caught up in some crossfire and end up in the hospital or something.)[/QUOTE
> 
> This little "event" is out of the ordinary for Aspen. It's pretty laid back. I am sure you'll have fun there. If you're riding, do the road up to the Maroon Bells and also Independence Pass, then buy yourself a cocktail at the Jerome Bar or the bar at the Little Nell. You never know who you might bump elbows with.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

Breaking News:

Contador's tainted beef said to come from Aspen based restaurant Cache Cache.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Just boa lace 'em up and get it on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDFQQseeslg


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Should have turned into a bar fight!! Two guys doped on EPO...man that fight could last hours!


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## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

This story is just too weird...something is definitely not right here. My BS meter is approaching redline.

I'm not defending Lance, except to say that he is no dummy. Tyler, on the other hand, I'm not so sure.


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## goloso (Feb 4, 2004)

tron said:


> I'm certainly not trying to take Lance's side, but perhaps Hamilton's choice in dining establishments was bit naive.


Sure but lance was conducting a charity ride in Tennessee that day. Hamilton was doing something with Outside magazine which would have been known to the general public. He might not even have had a choice of restaurants. In any event, it was stupid for Lance to confront him publicly like this even if Hamilton was looking for it. 


> Could this have been a setup by the Outside guys looking for a story or maybe the owner of the restraunt called LA when Tyler showed up?


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Mootsie said:


> Gatorback said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the tip. I'll look it up when I'm out there. (Assuming I don't get caught up in some crossfire and end up in the hospital or something.)[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

Gatorback said:


> Mootsie said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be riding a couple days, probably road and mountain, and may try to climb North Maroon Peak (with a guide and on foot of course). Last year I climbed Pyramid Peak, my first 14er, and it was both a blast and one of the toughest things I've done in my life. I'll definitely ride a bike up toward the Bells one day and am looking forward to the climb up Independence Pass.
> ...


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I gotta feeling that Lance can probably throw a few punches if he wants, he used to get into some hot headed fights in his younger days racing crits back in Texas.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

*Whatever*

If I frequented any establishment anywhere where I am the preferred customer, and someone I did not like was there, I would expect the same, or would you comfortably enjoy your meal knowing that a "non-friend" (a convicted cheater mind you) was in your midst?

Just being realistic.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

carbonLORD said:


> If I frequented any establishment anywhere where I am the preferred customer, and someone I did not like was there, I would expect the same, or would you comfortably enjoy your meal knowing that a "non-friend" (a convicted cheater mind you) was in your midst?
> 
> Just being realistic.


I've eaten at restaurants while someone I didn't like was also eating there. I can't imagine being petty enough to ask for them to be removed from the restaurant.


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## jlgoodin78 (Dec 13, 2007)

*Sorority*



carbonLORD said:


> If I frequented any establishment anywhere where I am the preferred customer, and someone I did not like was there, I would expect the same, or would you comfortably enjoy your meal knowing that a "non-friend" (a convicted cheater mind you) was in your midst?
> 
> Just being realistic.


And how was it being queen of your sorority?


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

Henry Porter said:


> I've eaten at restaurants while someone I didn't like was also eating there. I can't imagine being petty enough to ask for them to be removed from the restaurant.


I think the stakes are a little higher in Lance's case.

This is not a petty argument to say the least.


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

carbonLORD said:


> If I frequented any establishment anywhere where I am the preferred customer, and someone I did not like was there, I would expect the same, or would you comfortably enjoy your meal knowing that a "non-friend" (a convicted cheater mind you) was in your midst?
> 
> Just being realistic.


There are places for people who feel the way they you do. They are called private clubs. The exclusive ones have "one black ball" rules so that you can nix the prospective membership of anyone that you do not want to see on the premises.

A restaurant, however, is a place of public accommodation. If you don't want to be in the same place with someone and he happens to be in the restaurant, your remedy is to leave, not to have the other person evicted.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

The whole confronting someone in a restaurant or bar seems a little bit juvenile and immature to me. I am envisioning the movie The Sandlot and the incident ending with one of them throwing the final verbal blow by telling the other "oh yeah, well you ride bikes like a GIRL" before Armstrong then challenges Hamilton to a race up his favorite local hill. 

You know it wouldn't sound so bad if they got in a fistfight over a woman or something.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*The question is, however...*



MarkS said:


> There are places for people who feel the way they you do. They are called private clubs. The exclusive ones have "one black ball" rules so that you can nix the prospective membership of anyone that you do not want to see on the premises.
> 
> A restaurant, however, is a place of public accommodation. If you don't want to be in the same place with someone and he happens to be in the restaurant, your remedy is to leave, not to have the other person evicted.


Did Hamilton create issues with the management, questioning his bill, probably somewhat rudely? That would be an appropriate reason to ask Hamilton not to come back, not necessarily that Lance demanded it. I don't believe the full dynamics of the fracas has been told. It's possible Hamilton behaved badly, too, and took it out on the management.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Fredrico said:


> Did Hamilton create issues with the management, questioning his bill, probably somewhat rudely? That would be an appropriate reason to ask Hamilton not to come back, not necessarily that Lance demanded it. I don't believe the full dynamics of the fracas has been told. It's possible Hamilton behaved badly, too, and took it out on the management.


The quotes from the Outside Magazine editor who was there suggest it went down a little differently.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Did Hamilton create issues with the management, questioning his bill, probably somewhat rudely? That would be an appropriate reason to ask Hamilton not to come back, not necessarily that Lance demanded it. I don't believe the full dynamics of the fracas has been told. It's possible Hamilton behaved badly, too, and took it out on the management.


Bearing in mind he was in Aspen at the invitation of the magazine, I'd be surprised if they weren't picking up the bill. So it is unlikely that he had anything to do with the dispute over the bill, or tip for that matter.

Also, does anyone else find it amusing that LA's surname is an anagram of Strong-arm? Quite appropriate based on his behaviour down the years.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

The owner calls up a bully so he can harass you, then tells you never to come back....and then expects a tip? Really? 

The question is not if Armstrong will be charged with tampering but how many times he will be charged. Tyler is not the only witness who has been the target of his petty bully tactics.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

jlgoodin78 said:


> And how was it being queen of your sorority?


Petty response for a petty thread.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

MarkS said:


> If you don't want to be in the same place with someone and he happens to be in the restaurant, your remedy is to leave, not to have the other person evicted.


Unless of course you are Lance Armstrong and the owner weighs the option of which customer he/she prefers to cater to.

Like I said, this isn't two random people arguing over who's bike is lighter...

Or would any of you really want to be around someone making such accusations, (on 60 minutes), and keep in mind you are proclaiming innocence, have 7 TDF victories to defend, a million dollar industry and a reputation to say the least.

When you phrase it as some bar fight or some petty argument, sure, that might be a little extreme but no, I personally agree with Lance's stance and if/when he is actually found guilty of some wrong doing, then he can go into hiding, or write a book deal but for now I'm still in his court and if I were in the mans shoes would not want some confessed, washed up cyclist to be in my personal affairs or around my dinner table.

Sorry if you disagree.

I guess if Hamilton wants to clear his conscience perhaps he should focus more on his many personal wrong doings instead of others, otherwise he'll have to take everything that comes with speaking publicly against others... like being asked to leave the restaurant.

Didn't any of your parents tell you not to stick your nose in other peoples affairs? You get what you give. If Lance is guilty of anything, he will have his day. Till then he will likely defend himself to the fullest.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

carbonLORD said:


> Unless of course you are Lance Armstrong and the owner weighs the option of which customer he/she prefers to cater to.
> 
> Like I said, this isn't two random people arguing over who's bike is lighter...
> 
> ...


Like Armstrong did to Bassons, Simeoni, and Lemond?


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Like Armstrong did to Bassons, Simeoni, and Lemond?


I must have missed that 60 minutes.

And I'm sure, if Armstrong is ever at their hang out spot, he too might be asked to leave.

I am not Lance Armstrong nor Tyler Hamelton, but I know better then to talk poorly in public about anyone and expect things to be hunky-dory if I happen to bump into them either.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

Gatorback said:


> You know it wouldn't sound so bad if they got in a fistfight over a woman or something.


Yeah cause defending the reputation of a 7 time TDF winner and the name behind Livestrong is just too silly to be upset over...


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Gatorback said:


> The quotes from the Outside Magazine editor who was there suggest it went down a little differently.


Isn't the Outside editor's comment the closest we have so far to an unbiased observer? 

Plus, has there been any information whether Armstrong made the restaurant owner ask Hamilton to never come back? I think this is extrapolation by posters on this thread, I don't think I have read this anywhere else.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

carbonLORD said:


> Yeah cause defending the reputation of a 7 time TDF winner and the name behind Livestrong is just too silly to be upset over...


the blind defense of a myth is a good thing?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

carbonLORD said:


> I must have missed that 60 minutes.
> 
> And I'm sure, if Armstrong is ever at their hang out spot, he too might be asked to leave.
> 
> I am not Lance Armstrong nor Tyler Hamelton, but I know better then to talk poorly in public about anyone and expect things to be hunky-dory if I happen to bump into them either.


If it was not on 60 Minutes it never happened? 

Are you the subject of a Federal investigation? You chose to ignore that this incident is more then just a disagreement between two former friends. Threatening a witness in your case is never a smart move.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

ashpelham said:


> Neither of these guys weighs more than, what, 160 lbs wet? Armstrong might be a bit chunkier now, but TH is just a lightweight, no two ways about it. So, the thought of this confrontation sort of makes me giggle.
> FYI, I'm 6'1 and about 200, minus or plus what dinner was. Not that lightweight guys can't be tough...Seen lots of scrappy, kick ass men smaller than these two.
> 
> Still, I just get a chuckle thinking about it...Pussies.


I have seen a bunch of big guys over the years play tough who turned out to be complete pussieeees. Just sayin', it can go both ways. I fear a smaller scrappy guy more than a dude who is 200+ pounds of chewed bubble gum.

A lot of athletes walking around a 160lbs have the strength of an average guy walking around at 200+. Also, considering their above average cardio... I wouldn't be so quick to judge next time..

If you watch the earliest UFC fights from the 90s before they created weight classes, you will see that weight and height don't always matter. Off hand, I am recalling a fighter that looked like 140lb. Joe Dirt who took down a fighter who was 300lbs and about 6'3".


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Yes, but entirely understandable.*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> If it was not on 60 Minutes it never happened?
> 
> Are you the subject of a Federal investigation? You chose to ignore that this incident is more then just a disagreement between two former friends. Threatening a witness in your case is never a smart move.


If Armstrong had thrown punches, he could be charged with assault. Witness tampering seems to me to be way more than Lance's verbal fencing with Hamilton. Some threat. Witness tampering is more like coaching the witness on what to say, or trying to change his testimony in court. None of that's happened yet.

It was Hamilton who got kicked out of the restaurant, not Lance. What did Hamilton do to deserve that?  I kind of doubt it was refusal to pay the tip.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> If Armstrong had thrown punches, he could be charged with assault. Witness tampering seems to me to be way more than Lance's verbal fencing with Hamilton. Some threat. Witness tampering is more like coaching the witness on what to say, or trying to change his testimony in court. None of that's happened yet.
> 
> It was Hamilton who got kicked out of the restaurant, not Lance. What did Hamilton do to deserve that?  I kind of doubt it was refusal to pay the tip.


Here is what the law says



> “knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to—
> (1) influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding.”


Here is what Armstrong said to Tyler


> legal team would ‘[expletive] destroy you,’ ‘tear you apart on the witness stand,’ and ‘make your life a living [expletive] hell.’


”

What did Tyler do to get kick out? He told the truth. Something Lance, and his groupies, hate.


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## Comer (Jan 13, 2009)

Allegedly, Doc. Don't let your hatred of LA cause you to judge too quickly. 

Plus, if it did happen as you say it did, wouldn't TH expect his attorney's to try to destroy him and make his life hell? I just don't see the witness tampering.

Also, the restaurant is a private establishment. The owner can serve whomever he wants. 







Doctor Falsetti said:


> Here is what the law says
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> If Armstrong had thrown punches, he could be charged with assault. Witness tampering seems to me to be way more than Lance's verbal fencing with Hamilton. Some threat. Witness tampering is more like coaching the witness on what to say, or trying to change his testimony in court. None of that's happened yet.
> It was Hamilton who got kicked out of the restaurant, not Lance. What did Hamilton do to deserve that?  I kind of doubt it was refusal to pay the tip.


What account have you read? Nowhere is there any refereence to Hamilton himself causing the dinner party to be asked to leave. Indeed, the restaurant owner merely commented that someone in the party was rude to the waiter & left no tip after there had been a dispute over the bill. Only then was it stated that they should not return. Somewhat different to being kicked out, wouldn't you say?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Comer said:


> Allegedly, Doc. Don't let your hatred of LA cause you to judge too quickly.
> 
> Plus, if it did happen as you say it did, wouldn't TH expect his attorney's to try to destroy him and make his life hell? I just don't see the witness tampering.
> 
> Also, the restaurant is a private establishment. The owner can serve whomever he wants.


This is not a court of law, but if that helps you continue to hold on to that myth then by all means suspend rational thought and continue to believe the myth

You do not need to hate LA to know that he has a long history of petty bullying. His actions last week are in line with what he has been doing for years. You may not see it as witness tampering but the Feds do see a reason to look into it further. As they have already been investigating other efforts by Lance to suppress information and interfere with the investigation it is not a surprise that they see value in this incident as well.

When the owner of the restaurant called Armstrong to tell him that Tyler would be there that night what do you think Armstrong's intentions were when he rushed to the restaurant?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*The story gets more interesting!*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> This is not a court of law, but if that helps you continue to hold on to that myth then by all means suspend rational thought and continue to believe the myth
> 
> You do not need to hate LA to know that he has a long history of petty bullying. His actions last week are in line with what he has been doing for years. You may not see it as witness tampering but the Feds do see a reason to look into it further. As they have already been investigating other efforts by Lance to suppress information and interfere with the investigation it is not a surprise that they see value in this incident as well.
> 
> *When the owner of the restaurant called Armstrong to tell him that Tyler would be there that night what do you think Armstrong's intentions were when he rushed to the restaurant?*


Hang Armstrong! His intimidation effort was premeditated! Calculated to scare Hamilton off the witness stand! (Or at least moderate his testimony, so his accusations couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt!)

I never liked LA. From day one, I thought he was a pretentious a$$. But he, drugged or not drugged, did some great racing. He beat cancer and started a foundation to prevent others from suffering with it. Big egos most often redeem themselves with extraordinary good works. I'd give Lance the benefit of the doubt.

I disliked Bernarnd Hinault, too. I thought Greg LeMond came across as a bit of a prima donna, too. The list goes on. Racers are by definition egotistical, and the best can be insufferable. Look at Mark Cavendish! What a spoiled kid!

What stinks about this deconstruction of Lance Armstrong is it's being enabled through the testimony of two riders who's victories were taken away from them when they tested positive. Quite natural, they would want to bring down Lance with them. I'd put money on both of them keeping their mouths shut if they'd gotten away with it, like Lance did. Tough. Life isn't always just. :shocked:


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Same difference.*



ultimobici said:


> What account have you read? Nowhere is there any refereence to Hamilton himself causing the dinner party to be asked to leave. Indeed, the restaurant owner merely commented that someone in the party was rude to the waiter & left no tip after there had been a dispute over the bill. Only then was it stated that they should not return. Somewhat different to being kicked out, wouldn't you say?


But yes, being bodily thrown out the door by a bouncer and being asked not to come back are slightly different things!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> Hang Armstrong! His intimidation effort was premeditated! Calculated to scare Hamilton off the witness stand! (Or at least moderate his testimony, so his accusations couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt!)
> 
> I never liked LA. From day one, I thought he was a pretentious a$$. But he, drugged or not drugged, did some great racing. He beat cancer and started a foundation to prevent others from suffering with it. Big egos most often redeem themselves with extraordinary good works. I'd give Lance the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> ...


George Hincapie tested positive?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Proves my point.*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> George Hincapie tested positive?


Hincapie got away with it and has kept his mouth shut publicly! :thumbsup:


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> Hincapie got away with it and has kept his mouth shut publicly! :thumbsup:


You do realize your post makes no sense right? 

Hincapie, Livingston, Steffen, and others will do far more for the "deconstruction of Lance Armstrong" then Floyd.

If you think it is bad now what do you think it will be after the plea deal? Incarceration is far worse then the current damage to the public image


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*As the world turns.......*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> You do realize your post makes no sense right?
> 
> Hincapie, Livingston, Steffen, and others will do far more for the "deconstruction of Lance Armstrong" then Floyd.
> 
> If you think it is bad now what do you think it will be after the plea deal? Incarceration is far worse then the current damage to the public image


Will the Inspecter and his crack team, after years of relentlessly gathering evidence, countless hours of testimony from admitted drug users, finally drive the final nail in the coffin of Lance Armstrong's stellar achievements, leaving the race organizers, the cycling governing bodies, the drug testing agencies looking like fools, or worse, paid co-conspirators?

Will Javert and his team let off those nailing Armstrong with a two year probation or better, in exchange for testimony nailing Armstrong? Will the cancer survivor and 7 time Tour de France winner spend time in prison, stripped of his medals and his reputation, and sued for all his money, fraudulently obtained?

Will anyone trust any of the participants in the great sport of cycling ever again?

Stay tuned. Learn more shocking details in the next heart wrenching episode of As The World Turns!


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

Comer said:


> Also, the restaurant is a private establishment. The owner can serve whomever he wants.


The Civil Rights Act says not so fast. Banning someone because LA doesn't like him is not legal. 

Also...

The owner stated that TH was banned for not tipping, but it is reported that she told TH that he can finish his meal. That sounds like bs. Who tips while eating the meal.

From Outside Magazine:
"Hamilton went back to his table and the restaurant’s owner, Jodi Larner, a good friend of Armstrong’s, told Hamilton that he could finish his meal but wasn’t welcome back at the restaurant."


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

HikenBike said:


> From Outside Magazine:
> "Hamilton went back to his table and the restaurant’s owner, Jodi Larner, a good friend of Armstrong’s, told Hamilton that he could finish his meal but wasn’t welcome back at the restaurant."


I hope he left no tip.


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## ArkRider (Jul 27, 2007)

HikenBike said:


> The Civil Rights Act says not so fast. Banning someone because LA doesn't like him is not legal.


I'm not so sure "on Armstrong's sh*t-list" is a protected class.


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## LouD-Reno (Mar 28, 2006)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> I hope he left no tip.


He left his "tip" with the feds, no ?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Fredrico
> *What did Hamilton do to deserve that?*


uhhhh..... snitched, ratted, narc'd, etc..... there still exists places where such actions are not celebrated as enthusiastically as they are among some here..... perhaps this restaurant is such a place ???? :idea:


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

ArkRider said:


> I'm not so sure "on Armstrong's sh*t-list" is a protected class.


True, but it is discriminatory nevertheless. Restaurants can't deny service to individuals based on arbitrary conditions. Being "on Armstrong's sh*t-list" is most likely an arbitrary condition.


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## gregario (Nov 19, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Like Armstrong did to Bassons, Simeoni, and Lemond?


The thing that ticks me off most about Armstrong is his bullying of Bassons and Simeoni. That to me showed his true colors.


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## ArkRider (Jul 27, 2007)

HikenBike said:


> True, but it is discriminatory nevertheless. Restaurants can't deny service to individuals based on arbitrary conditions. Being "on Armstrong's sh*t-list" is most likely an arbitrary condition.


There may be some jurisdiction that has state law to that effect, but that's not the case under federal/U.S. Constitutional law. You can discriminate against anyone you want, as long as the discrimination is not directed towards one of the protected classes (i.e., race, religion, national origin, gender). Ever hear of the concept of "freedom of association"?

The law that I think you are relying on is based upon the "Civil War Amendments," and I'm pretty sure those were directed at protecting people on Armstrong's sh*t-list.


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## ArkRider (Jul 27, 2007)

HikenBike said:


> True, but it is discriminatory nevertheless. Restaurants can't deny service to individuals based on arbitrary conditions. Being "on Armstrong's sh*t-list" is most likely an arbitrary condition.


There may be some jurisdiction that has state law to that effect, but that's not the case under federal/U.S. Constitutional law. You can discriminate against anyone you want, as long as it is not a prohibited discrimination (discrimination against a member of a protected class - _i.e._, race, religion, national origin, gender).


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

i would imagine the feds have already pulled the phone records...


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## Axe (Sep 21, 2004)

HikenBike said:


> Restaurants can't deny service to individuals based on arbitrary conditions.


They sure can. No soup for you.



HikenBike said:


> The Civil Rights Act says not so fast. Banning someone because LA doesn't like him is not legal.


It is legal if it is not based on any protected class traits. Exact lists varies by state - with common denominator being federally protected classes. In California it is Age, Ancestry, Color, Creed, Disability, Genetics, Marital Status,National Origin,Race,Religion, Sex, Sexual Orientation (copying from mandatory manager's training they just made me complete. 2hr every two years. What a waste of time).

If LA hate is not based on any of those, they sure can kick anybody out.


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

alexb618 said:


> i would imagine the feds have already pulled the phone records...


Agreed, that is why 'Ol Jodie fessed up to the investigators that she phoned the bracelet guy. She appreciates his regular business enough to ban an out of town guy for life, but telling less than the truth to the Feds.......... well, that's another thing.


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## Veloflash (Apr 21, 2002)

*More Information*

The bill for Hamilton's table was reported to be $888

The part owner of the restaurant, Ms. Jodi Larner, firstly claimed there were only surveillance cameras in the kitchen area. Then later she added the cameras in the dining area were "not functioning".

She informed that when she arrived at the restaurant the next day, Sunday, there were numerous complaints on her voicemail over the previous night's incidents. This must have been from diners as the story and its later legal ramifications only got legs when blogged later by _Outside Magazine_

Here is one diner's review of the restaurant posted to a site on the Monday after. He appears to be a witness to the exclusion of Hamilton at the peacocking of Armstrong:


http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=1zTRJaiycsESooduxGkpAw

_well, the foods fine and all, but the ethics dept is lacking.
watched mgmt throw a guy out for no reason other than a local celeb told them to.
i was a spineless display and really ruined my experience, and left a bad taste in my mouth about this place.
i won't be back._


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## lastchild (Jul 4, 2009)

Veloflash said:


> The bill for Hamilton's table was reported to be $888
> 
> The part owner of the restaurant, Ms. Jodi Larner, firstly claimed there were only surveillance cameras in the kitchen area. Then later she added the cameras in the dining area were "not functioning".
> 
> ...



Sure Veloflash, whatever you say.

If you saw it on Yelp it _must_ be true


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

It appears someone did not get the joke:idea:


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## Veloflash (Apr 21, 2002)

*Joke?*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> It appears someone did not get the joke:idea:


Moi?

I believe you are getting mixed up with "Trip Advisor"

These are the joke reviews that were referred to on the _CyclingNews_ forum.

The review I referred to on _Yelp_ by timing and content appears to be no joke and the poster has a straight track record with _Yelp_. I would expect the FBI to be making contact with that diner for his independent eye witness account.


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## lastchild (Jul 4, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> It appears someone did not get the joke:idea:


all i need to do is read your posts and the joke becomes quite clear.


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