# Non Specialized stems on carbon Specialized steerers



## Tarmac CK (Nov 2, 2010)

So I was thumbing through the instructions that came with my tarmac pro frame and came across something that got me a little worried...

"Specialized recommends against the use of stems with large bore holes in contact with the steerer tube. Large bore holes reduce the clamping surface area and concentrate the load onto the carbon steerer tube." 

It goes on to mention that the warranty does not cover any failure of the steerer tube in which a non-Specialized stem with large bore hole is used.


I just purchased a Ritchey WCS 4-Axis alloy stem and it has one of these large bore holes, like in the photo below. Should I be concerned at all about riding/racing with this stem on the steerer?


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## Hairy Legs (Sep 19, 2006)

I ran a 4-Axis on my Tarmac for 2 years, no problems at all. I have been running a 3T for the last year, same story, no problems. I have worked at a Specialized dealer for the last 5 years and i have never ran into any warranty issues regaurding your concern.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I started a thread (below) due to the same concerns, but ultimately went with a Ritchey stem on my recent (Pro) build because the length/ angle ended up being my best option.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=231957

JMO's, but I think Specialized is conservative in their recommendations. Also, their 'expander plug' effectively reinforces the area where the stem is clamped. If you notice, they supply a top cap with their framesets that doesn't work with their brand stems, so they know that wrenches are using other brands.

That said, I think Specs wording gives them an out (if they so choose) in the event of a steerer tube failure. I'm a pretty light rider, so I opted to go this route, but as always, YMMV.


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## roadie01 (Apr 13, 2010)

I wouldn't be to concerned as long as you use an expander plug that supports the inside of the steerer tube and is aligned with the stem. 

I had a EA90 on my Tarmac SL for years with no issues. Then switched to a 3T pro and still no issues. I do fall in the camp that recomends at lest a 5mm spacer on top of the stem to allow the stem to clamp evenly around the steerer. 

I think if my steeerer could survive this and not break you should be okay unless your jumping your road bike and putting undue stress on the steerer.


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## Tarmac CK (Nov 2, 2010)

No jumps, but I am less graceful and more rough when it comes to throwing weight around on my bike, so I was a little concerned. Will definitely take the 5mm spacer on top into consideration though.

Thanks for the replies guys.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Tarmac CK said:


> No jumps, but I am less graceful and more rough when it comes to throwing weight around on my bike, so I was a little concerned. *Will definitely take the 5mm spacer on top into consideration though.*
> 
> Thanks for the replies guys.


Your call, but if you check the literature provided with your frameset, you'll find that Specialized recommends against using spacers above the stem. They explain why in the literature, but here's a excerpt...
WARNING! Do not permanently place stem spacers above the stem (Fig. 3). Placing spacers above the stem defeats the purpose of the expander plug’s ability to support the steerer tube and stem.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I think this was pre-emptive conservatism on Specialized's part to cover themselves after a rash of Trek Madone carbon steerer failures.

I use the Ritchey 4-axis stem too. And I have spacers above the stem just in case I become less flexible as I get older. I am otherwise very careful about setting things up to spec, maintaining the bike, and inspecting it for problems. There's also that big warranty disclaimer on the box that the frame came in ... but I trust my wrenching more than some random individual in the store.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Tarmac CK,
Verify that all the _inside_ edges of the stem do not have any sharp edges or burrs, and you should have no problems. Also read below:

PJ352 ,
When I installed fork & stem onto my 2009 Sworks SL2, I measured that the steerer tube internal expander plug should be able to fully & properly support the compressive force of the 3T stem clamp, even with a 10mm spacer above stem.

No concerns or issues so far! IIRC, the 3T stem has a 40mm height and the expander plug extens a bit below and above the stem clamp ... a stem with more height might not be OK


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tom_h said:


> PJ352 ,
> When I installed fork & stem onto my 2009 Sworks SL2, I measured that the steerer tube internal expander plug should be able to fully & properly support the compressive force of the 3T stem clamp, even with a 10mm spacer above stem.
> 
> No concerns or issues so far! IIRC, the 3T stem has a 40mm height and the expander plug extens a bit below and above the stem clamp ... a stem with more height might not be OK


Understood. I was simply offering (as a FYI) what Spec recommended in the event the OP wasn't aware of it.

I opted to run a Ritchey stem without the added spacer, partly because of Specs recommendation, but also for aesthetics. 

I also agree that Specs recommendations are consistently conservative and (based on the recent updates to the FAQ section), seem to be getting _more_ conservative. We may choose to abide by or ignore recommendations, but fact is if something were to happen, the latter gives Spec an out on a warranty claim.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

In any given mechanical situation where a compression clamp is used over a round post of any kind, there needs to be a tight tolerance of ID and OD dimensions. If the gap is too large then only limited surfaces of the mating parts will contact, creating a stressful situation and possible failure. The diagram a few posts up is a good representation of this requirement. Do you know the fit tolerance of a wrist pin in a piston? Tighter than most of us can understand.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Special Eyes said:


> In any given mechanical situation where a compression clamp is used over a round post of any kind, there needs to be a tight tolerance of ID and OD dimensions. If the gap is too large then only limited surfaces of the mating parts will contact, creating a stressful situation and possible failure. The diagram a few posts up is a good representation of this requirement. Do you know the fit tolerance of a wrist pin in a piston? Tighter than most of us can understand.


Another good reason to check the inside of stem for any burrs or ridges.

In the untightened state, the tolerance of my 3T stem to the Specialized steerer is pretty snug ... definitely does not slide or spin freely. The parts seem to match up well.


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## tomato (May 16, 2002)

Apologies for being late to the discussion. 

My question is, reading the Specialized guidelines for stems, can it be interpreted that Specialized are asking owners to use only Specialized stems?

Could a non-Specialized stem with a large bore hole be otherwise given a 'shim' (sorry if the term is not appropriate) to cover the hole and provide consistent contact with the steerer? I have noticed that many manufacturer's stems come with or without a shim to cover the hole, even for one model like the Ritchey WCS.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tomato said:


> Apologies for being late to the discussion.
> 
> My question is, reading the Specialized guidelines for stems, *can it be interpreted that Specialized are asking owners to use only Specialized stems?*
> 
> Could a non-Specialized stem with a large bore hole be otherwise given a 'shim' (sorry if the term is not appropriate) to cover the hole and provide consistent contact with the steerer? I have noticed that many manufacturer's stems come with or without a shim to cover the hole, even for one model like the Ritchey WCS.


I suppose it could be interpreted that way, but I think what they're saying is that because the shim they employ is an integral part of their stem system that renforces the steerer at points of contact (specifically where the stems with large bore holes don't) , if the system is not used, the fork warranty is void.

Re: the shims. What you're referring to are shims that used to be provided with 1 1/8" stems allowing their use with 1" steerers. I know at one point Ritchey provided them and have heard that, if requested, they still do. Since 1 1/8" steerers have become (more or less) the standard, they are no longer provided. But the bottom line is they wouldn't help with this situation.

FWIW, I and many others here have opted for non-Specialized stems and (at least to my knowledge) no one's reported a steerer failure. As always, YMMV.


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## tomato (May 16, 2002)

PJ352, Thanks for the quick reply.


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## Tarmac CK (Nov 2, 2010)

Coming off of what PJ said, my 4-axis did come with a shim but there is no way it would fit. The stem to steerer fit is extremely tight as it is.


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## PrivateAddress (Jul 30, 2011)

*Specialized customer support recommendations re stems on carbon steerers......*

Here is some info provided by Specialized customer support. As you will see, they (1) state that non-Specialized stems should in general have a spacer above the stem (although they then claimed that does not apply to Ritchey stems), but (2) they recommend against using such non-Specialized stems on their carbon steerers because of the large cut-out (bore-hole) into the horizontal part of the stem which makes stresses on the steerer uneven, and (3) they recommend that their own stems with shim be used WITHOUT spacer above the stem:

================
You dealer has a good point about the amount of steer tube to cut off and having spacers above the stem. Frankly I'm impressed that they are up to date on this very general important industry information. In general it has been determined that for a carbon steer tube to retain sufficient overall strength 1-2 spacers should be left above the stem. This does help the overall strength of the steer tube/headset integration. However as you have read on the information with our Multi-Set stems with the shim we recommend running no spacers above the stem. Again, it could be run with spacers above and in some ways is stronger. Our engineers have determined that because of that shim most shops will go ahead and just put spacers above the stem and they will simply put the pressure of the headset top cap down onto the shim. This isn't anything extremely dangerous but really the pressure should be on the stem itself. So yes with the Multi-Set stem I would not recommend using spacers above that stem.
We appreciate your feedback and thank you for using our products.
Have a great weekend.
Bob
==========
I would not suggest that. The Ritchie stems don't play well being dropped with a spacer above them. Frankly there is not enough stem material surrounding the steertube/compression plug. Sorry... 
Thanks
Robert Walgamott
Consumer Representative
Specialized Customer Service/Online Store
1475 S. 5070 W. Ste. A
Salt Lake City, UT 84104
Phone: 877-808-8154 ext.5467
Fax: 877-672-7237
==============


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

PrivateAddress said:


> Here is some info provided by Specialized customer support.


I may have missed something, but I find your post confusing. There's apparently a contradictory answer to an unknown question, then another opinion from another Spec rep. IIRC, for a very short time he posted questionable advice on this forum, then was gone. I'd be interested in the full text and date of that writeup. 

Re: stem/ spacer configuration, consumers have to decide for themselves, but if they want to go by the book (as in, what's recommended by Specialized), to my knowledge, this is the latest related documentation:
http://service.specialized.com/coll...Fork---Carbon-Road-Fork-Instruction-Guide.pdf


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## PrivateAddress (Jul 30, 2011)

*Clarification of Specialized's responses*

Advice from Specialized tech support is generally confusing. The first response above was in answer to my asking if they still recommend against spacers above the stem because a Specialized dealer had recommended that I do keep a spacer above the stem on my new 2012 Tarmac SL Pro frame. The second response was an answer to a message in which I explained that I am using a Ritchey WCS 4-axis stem (because of the original Specialized response differentiating between Spechalized and non-Specialized stems) and asked whether or not with that stem I should have a spacer above it. As you can see, the person then said Ritchey stems "don't play well" due to "not enough material" (presumably referring to the cut-out). I then contacted Ritchey about this and they said "Our first recommendation is to follow the manufacturer's recommendations." BTW, I do not know whether or not Robert and Bob are the same person.


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## PrivateAddress (Jul 30, 2011)

In terms of the date, that above Specialized advice was received just last week, December 2011.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

PrivateAddress said:


> Advice from Specialized tech support is generally confusing. The first response above was in answer to my asking if they still recommend against spacers above the stem because a Specialized dealer had recommended that I do keep a spacer above the stem on my new 2012 Tarmac SL Pro frame. The second response was an answer to a message in which I explained that I am using a Ritchey WCS 4-axis stem (because of the original Specialized response differentiating between Spechalized and non-Specialized stems) and asked whether or not with that stem I should have a spacer above it. As you can see, the person then said Ritchey stems "don't play well" due to "not enough material" (presumably referring to the cut-out). I then contacted Ritchey about this and they said "Our first recommendation is to follow the manufacturer's recommendations." BTW, I do not know whether or not Robert and Bob are the same person.


Besides being contradictory, I think your tech support contact(s) are missing one fundamental issue, which is that the expander plug and (Specs) stem, shim and top cap are a part of their system, to be used together - with spacers configured as illustrated. If you read the documentation, it references how the long expander plugs purpose (to reinforce) is undermined with the use of a spacer atop a stem, and figure #3 illustrates the same. This (IMO) holds true no matter the stem used. 

Bottom line is that a consumer has to decide for themselves which path to follow, but (IMO) any that stray from the documented recommendations may jeopardize the processing of a warranty claim.

For the record, I opted to go with max spacers, a Ritchey stem and no spacers above it, but I do so at my own risk.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

I have 4 Tarmacs in my household...two 2008 Experts and two 2010 Experts...All with Ritchey 4-Axis WCS stems, all with one spacer on top...

All are fine...


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## PrivateAddress (Jul 30, 2011)

Just keeping everyone updated on the advice directly from Specialized. Below reprinted in correct chronological order. "Response" means written by Specialized. "Customer" means asked by me:

Response Via Email 12/08/2011 12:49 PM
The Ritchie stems don't play well being dropped with a spacer above them. Frankly there is not enough stem material surrounding the steertube/compression plug. Sorry... 

Customer By Web Form 12/08/2011 01:27 PM
I would appreciate it if you could help me understand in more detail.
(1) So for this Ritchey stem you recommend to not have any spacers at all above the stem when installed on the steerer of the Tarmac SL4?
(2) In a previous email you mentioned that with non-Specialized stems it is in fact better to have a spacer in the stem (you added that for Specialized stems the written instructions say that it is not recommended because the spacer would apply pressure to the shim and not the stem per se) and that you were impressed with a dealer's recommendation to keep a spacer above the stem. That recommendation does not apply to the Ritchey line of stems because of not enough stem material around the steerer?

Customer By Web Form 12/08/2011 04:16 PM
And if I do buy a new Specialized stem (S-Works pro-set or S-Works CLP) to replace the Ritchey stem on this newly built-up Tarmac SL4 Pro (bought as a frameset), then in that case do you recommend for or against having 5 or 10 mm of spacers above the stem?

Response Via Email	12/12/2011 07:40 AM
Can you send a photo of the steertube with the compression plug in place but the stem and spacers removed? Despite what you were told before, If it's the type of compression plug system I am thinking it is, it won't work...

Customer By Web Form 12/12/2011 09:16 AM
Here are the pictures that should show the info you're looking for. This is the way it was set up by the Specialized dealer: there is a 10mm and a 2mm spacer below the stem (they added the 2 mm one because they slightly miscalculated where to cut the steerer) and there is a 10 mm spacer above the stem. The expansion plug as well as the top cap supposedly are the ones that came with the frameset (at least I didn't give them any other ones and didn't ask for any other ones and they didn't tell me anything about not using the ones that came with the frame).
This past weekend I have ordered a Specialized Pro-set stem from your web site. So if you strongly recommend to switch to a Specialized stem and no spacer above it, then I can have that new stem installed in that manner later this week.

Response Via Email 12/13/2011 11:08 AM
Here's the skinny. So the compression plug that comes stock with your bike is about 1.5" long (deep). Your stem needs to clamp to the portion of the steertube that is backed up by the compression plug on the inside. Since you cannot insert the compression plug any further into the steertube to 'follow' the stem as is slides downwards to accommodate more spacers, you only have a couple of options. 1) do not run spacers or if you must limit yourself to a 5mm space above the stem or 2) use a longer compression plug. Using a longer compression plug (Ridley makes on that is 3.5" long) gets you into a bit of a gray area. We cannot really recommend that you do this, because it is not a part that we have tested in concert with our stock steertube. So... if you try it, just realize you are trying it at your own risk. And if it causes an issue, since it is a not stock part, it will not be covered under the warranty. To be frank, if you must use more than 5mm of spacers above the stem, I would recommend trying the longer compression plug. It would undoubtedly be safer than running the spacers with the stock plug provided... I hope this information is helpful... Thanks. Robert Walgamott


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