# Red & Black basic ride difference



## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Does anyone know the basic ride difference (aka feel) between the Red and Black Madones? I am wondering if the Red is just lighter after all is said and done or, does it exhibit a decidedly "stiffer" characteristic also?


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

None, that I could/can tell. Yes, weight different, but not noticeable. The red uses high modulus carbon as opposed to the intermediate modulus on black. Supposedly that gives you a better/stonger/ carbon for red. 

HTH zac

EDIT: fwiw, I think the red is too light. My 6.5 is 15lbs. 9oz. with pedals (D/A) and cages, right out of the box...that's for a 56cm 6.5 Pro. On second thought...nah!


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## kneejerk (Feb 2, 2007)

I haven't ridden any of the "red" carbon frames yet. I have test ridden plenty of the "black". Since the component packages are different, I'm not sure it would be a fair comparison in most aspects. Since the "red" uses a higher modulus carbon mix and is likely thinner / lighter. The comfort should be more while retaining stiffness, but that is just my imagination at work.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

Good point. I have ridden my 6.5 Pro for some 3-4 weeks now. (and unfortunately should not be putting the winter miles on her that I am but it is too much fun to ride).

I had test ridden a 5.2 Performance. There is an obvious difference in wheels, saddle and handlebars so feel is going to be different, as the touchpoints are different. These would all lead to differences in ride feel. I would have to retest the 5.2, but with my wheels. 

As I recall, (and as I was comparing them all to an '05 5.2SL with Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL SSCs) I noted a remarked difference in responsiveness (stiffness) and road feel. Both bikes Red and Black are somewhat lighter than the 5.2SL (I would guess at least 1lb. on the 5.2 to 2+ for the 6.5). I would say that the Red frame has better road feel than the Black frame (for those Trek naysayers...less wooden) The Black frame is very responsive, the Red frame is invisible (It does what you think it to do), but that could just as easily be due somewhat to the difference in wheels. 

Look up the demo days at Trek and see when some 6.Xs are coming your way. That is really the only way to tell.


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

Zac -
Forget the 5.2 SL for a moment. The new RED is only 200g lighter than the new BLACK. That does not equate to anywhere near the 1 lb to 1+ lbs that you indicate in your post - "I would guess at least 1lb. on the 5.2 to 2+ for the 6.5." To be exact, 200 grams = .44 lbs.
All things being equal, with identical components, if the RED rides differently than a BLACK, it could only be attributable to the high modulus carbon and the layup of that carbon.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

08Madone5.2 said:


> Zac -
> Forget the 5.2 SL for a moment. The new RED is only 200g lighter than the new BLACK. That does not equate to anywhere near the 1 lb to 1+ lbs that you indicate in your post - "I would guess at least 1lb. on the 5.2 to 2+ for the 6.5." To be exact, 200 grams = .44 lbs.
> All things being equal, with identical components, if the RED rides differently than a BLACK, it could only be attributable to the high modulus carbon and the layup of that carbon.



Well no, you also have the difference in weight of the component group/outfit and the wheels. I have no idea what an '08 5.2 weighs. I am only guessing based on what I have picked up. I do, however, know what my old 5.2SL weighed, and what my 6.5 weighs. 

You also have the difference between Race Lite wheels on the 5.2 and the completely new Race X Lites on the 6.5. The Race Lites are a very good wheel: they are heavy, but they are bomb proof. Their design hasn't changed since '05/'06. I have two sets of them The Race X Lites are a new wheel for '08. New hubs/spokes/rims. I actually like them (didn't think I would) and this coming from someone who normally rides Cosmic Carbones. 

So I guess what I was trying to say is that wheel selection has a big part of the ride feel. 

Next good day I will throw the RLs on and see if there is a difference. 

My guess is that changes will not be readily apparent.


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

Zac -

Notice I said "All things being equal, with identical components, if the RED rides differently than a BLACK, it could only be attributable to the high modulus carbon and the layup of that carbon."
By all things being equal, I am talking about a RED or BLACK frame outfitted with IDENTICAL components. That being said, the RED is only 200g lighter than the BLACK, or .44 lbs.


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

My 54cm 08 Madone 5.2 with Speedplay Frogs weighs in at 16 1/4 lbs.


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

According to this review:
http://www.chainreaction.com/madone_08_review.htm

The Red frame is only 65g lighter than the Black frame. Thats the equivalent of .143 lbs.
The real difference is the high modulus and the layup of the carbon.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Good find on that review 08Madone5.2. 

I still wish we could find a ride comparison between the red and black. The weight difference is no big deal but, the different lay up schedule on the red could make for a different feeling bike. I guess we will just have to wait until there are more reds out there.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

08Madone5.2 said:


> Zac -
> 
> Notice I said "All things being equal, with identical components, if the RED rides differently than a BLACK, it could only be attributable to the high modulus carbon and the layup of that carbon."
> By all things being equal, I am talking about a RED or BLACK frame outfitted with IDENTICAL components. That being said, the RED is only 200g lighter than the BLACK, or .44 lbs.


What is your point? All things weren't equal, so to attribute the ride differences as you say would be speculation. 
As for components: The differences between Ultrgra and D/A as far as performance (when new or well maintained) are not relevant. The wheels on the other hand are more significant. Hell, even the same wheel can feel different depending on condition, rubber, inflation and environment. As I stated, I tested the Black and Red frames under different controls. That being the case, I related the ride to a common denominator: A prior ride with well over 25,000km on her. 

As I said both frames are very stiff, but there was no doubt with me that the red frame is 
stiffer. As I said, the black is responsive and comfortable. The red is invisible, but yet let's you know the road is there. There is nothing that I could quantify this with, other than over 30 years in the saddle.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

In the matter of the wheel difference, the 08' Race Lite is actually a new wheel too. It has all the same changes from 07 to 08 as the Race X-Lite does. The only part between the Lite and X-Lite that could cause a noticable difference in road feel is the 14g bladed spokes on the Lite versus the lighter guage spokes on the X-Lite. The X-Lite is built on lighter hubs but that would not be noticable on the road. A 5.2 Madone performance weighs 16.4lbs out of the box, give or take depending on size.


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

zac said:


> What is your point? All things weren't equal, so to attribute the ride differences as you say would be speculation.
> As for components: The differences between Ultrgra and D/A as far as performance (when new or well maintained) are not relevant. The wheels on the other hand are more significant. Hell, even the same wheel can feel different depending on condition, rubber, inflation and environment. As I stated, I tested the Black and Red frames under different controls. That being the case, I related the ride to a common denominator: A prior ride with well over 25,000km on her.
> 
> As I said both frames are very stiff, but there was no doubt with me that the red frame is
> stiffer. As I said, the black is responsive and comfortable. The red is invisible, but yet let's you know the road is there. There is nothing that I could quantify this with, other than over 30 years in the saddle.


My point is that there is only a 65G difference in weight, and it would make sense that the red frame is stiffer than the black frame due to its composition and layup, exactly what I said in an earlier response. My reference to all things being EQUAL still applies as the question posed by the OP is how the red frame rides compared to the black frame. You want to make a comparison, its necessary for all components and specs to be identical so you can isolate the difference in feel between the 2 frames. Its not perfect, but its as close as your going to get to making an unbiased evaluation.
As far as making a comparison to a bike with 25K km on her, do you think thats really fair? That bike has no bearing or relevance to a brand new, state of the art RED or BLACK Madone frame.
Thats my point.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Everything is cool guys, and you've been very helpful in bringing infomation to the table. I realize that, in the end I will need to try them both myself and, that is what I want to do (just as soon as my local shop gets some big reds in). However, from what you guys have said I can draw a reasonable picture of what the difference in ride is like. And, that's all I wanted. So thanks for all your comments and, I am looking forward to joining you'll as a "club Madone" member here shortly.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Not to hijack this but what about OCLV White?


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## kneejerk (Feb 2, 2007)

From what I am hearing is that OCLV "White" is going to be dropped pretty soon. It is the same frame as the "Black" (although I have no physical or technical evidence of it). Only that I have seen some of the womens and mens Madone 5.1's with frames labeled both with "white" and "black" dots!???? Once OCLV white is dropped, the Taiwan made 4.5 frame will fill the gap. I'm pretty confident in my feeling of the 4.5 frames being much less comfy than the OCLV stuff, it actually feels more like an Aluminum frame minus some of the vibes that come through on an Aluminum ride.

So, if you are into a bargain. Going out and getting a remaining Madone 5.1 may be a good thing. It appears that the WSD (womens) Madone 5.1 is not slated for the cut in production as the mens is.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

08Madone5.2 said:


> My point is that there is only a 65G difference in weight, and it would make sense that the red frame is stiffer than the black frame due to its composition and layup, exactly what I said in an earlier response. My reference to all things being EQUAL still applies as the question posed by the OP is how the red frame rides compared to the black frame. You want to make a comparison, its necessary for all components and specs to be identical so you can isolate the difference in feel between the 2 frames. Its not perfect, but its as close as your going to get to making an unbiased evaluation.
> As far as making a comparison to a bike with 25K km on her, do you think thats really fair? That bike has no bearing or relevance to a brand new, state of the art RED or BLACK Madone frame.
> Thats my point.


I think we are on the same page.

But I don't understand why you keep going back to weight. I have no idea why and where you are getting the 200g/65g differences in weight. Are you just talking about the frame (sans fork) or the fuselage or the entire bike? Because if it is the former two, your figure is meaningless without size, if the later, there is a 200+gm difference in the wheels alone. But again, I dont see that as important or relevant. Again wheel commonality would be the most significant factor, but as I said, I have yet to compare the two frames under controlled circumstances. At some point I will throw on a set of Bonty RLs on my ride and see how it goes, but I haven't done that.

As for the comparison: Absolutely I am comparing it to a state of the art OCLV 110 5.2SL with 25000 km on her! Are you suggesting that that is not valid, or that that bike is diminished because of use? Those frames don't break down that easily. In 2005 the 5.2SL was the no.2 Trek bike. The frame/fork was identical to the top of the line 5.9SL, other than paint and outfit/wheels. Now I ride one of the best/stiffest wheels made. So that comparison was valid. Despite having superior wheels, the new '08 Madone's offered, in my opinion, a stiffer more responsive (livelier) ride. On top of that they are more comfortable, but yet not dead/wooden, the feel for the road is great. I wouldn't call it better or worse than my 5.2SL, just different (But different in a way that I liked...alot). So what I was doing was comparing the relative rides to a bike I am very familiar with. That was the whole exercise: since I was unable to compare the bikes under identical conditions (all thing being equal as you put it) Plus my point there was to compare the respective rides to a known quantity, that's what you do when you compare. Real comparisons wont begin until I rack up some serious rides on the 6.5. To date I have done nothing over 80kms so long ride comfort really doesn't factor in until I get over 130kms or so. I have not seen anyone who have been able to ride both the Red and Black frames and then write a comparison. As far as I know, I am the only one I know out of hundreds of serious riders in my area, that has even ridden a Red frame.

My initial comparison was not a head to head Red to Black, as I did not ride them that way. Also my other constraint was I had only ridden the Black in a Performance version for a total of about 90kms and 30kms, and that was back in October or September. I was very impressed with the ride. Hell I don't even think Trek was distributing the Red frames yet back then. 

What I came away with on my test rides of the 5.2 Performance (56cm) is somewhat stated above. It is an awesome ride, one of the best bikes I have ever ridden. In baseball terms: Trek hit a grand slam with it. Now, that being said, there are subtle differences to the 6.5 but more likely due to wheels/outift. Again in terms of baseball, Trek hit a grand slam with the Red frames, just an upper-deck shot!

I think the differences in frame layup process go to durability and weight. Trek obtains the same durability/stiffness/responsiveness with the high modulus Red carbon process just with a lesser weight penalty as it does with the Black process. So in terms of ride between the Red and Black, my guess (and pure speculation here) is that they would be very damn near the same.

zac


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

rnhood said:


> Everything is cool guys, and you've been very helpful in bringing infomation to the table. I realize that, in the end I will need to try them both myself and, that is what I want to do (just as soon as my local shop gets some big reds in). However, from what you guys have said I can draw a reasonable picture of what the difference in ride is like. And, that's all I wanted. So thanks for all your comments and, I am looking forward to joining you'll as a "club Madone" member here shortly.



mhood: I don't know your LBS, but I would find it doubtful that they would stock a 6.x. They would only be special orders. But maybe your shop is different.

What I would say is if you are happy with the Black, you will be happy with the Red. Is it worth the extra, only you can answer that? 

For me I didn't look at it from that perspective. I looked at it more for the outfit. That the extra cost just got me to where this ride will be in a year anyway. I have several sets of RL wheels, and have heard nothing but really good stuff on the new RXL wheels. So for a few dollars more than upgrading the bike on my own, I get better, and new to me, wheels; I get full Dura-Ace; and as a bonus get the top end frame/fork. So I pulled the trigger. (Note: I don't strip and sell parts, I keep them and outfit other bikes, or keep them for parts)

Normally, the frame is my primary concern, and wheels the least: because I have wheels, and wheels are always the first things I upgrade anyway. But in this case and for the first time in my riding life, it was the reverse. That is how much I enjoyed the Black frame!

If you can afford the extra cash, go with the Red frame you will not regret it. If budget is a concern, be smart and get the Black frame, you will not regret it. Just a side note, if you have a spare group and wheels, get a Red frameset only. But I think that option is not available until late summer, when the P1s open up.

good luck, I wouldn't loose any sleep over Red-Black?/Black-Red? decision

zac


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

kneejerk said:


> From what I am hearing is that OCLV "White" is going to be dropped pretty soon. It is the same frame as the "Black" (although I have no physical or technical evidence of it). Only that I have seen some of the womens and mens Madone 5.1's with frames labeled both with "white" and "black" dots!???? Once OCLV white is dropped, the Taiwan made 4.5 frame will fill the gap. I'm pretty confident in my feeling of the 4.5 frames being much less comfy than the OCLV stuff, it actually feels more like an Aluminum frame minus some of the vibes that come through on an Aluminum ride.
> 
> So, if you are into a bargain. Going out and getting a remaining Madone 5.1 may be a good thing. It appears that the WSD (womens) Madone 5.1 is not slated for the cut in production as the mens is.


I'm getting the OCLV White TTX actually in a few weeks time.

I checked with Trek's liason and they said that for the TTX, it's all the same in terms of aerodynamics but OCLV white is just heavier and hence, cheaper. Stiffness is only marginally different actually. But, that could be just for the TTX.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

davidka said:


> In the matter of the wheel difference, the 08' Race Lite is actually a new wheel too. It has all the same changes from 07 to 08 as the Race X-Lite does. The only part between the Lite and X-Lite that could cause a noticable difference in road feel is the 14g bladed spokes on the Lite versus the lighter guage spokes on the X-Lite. The X-Lite is built on lighter hubs but that would not be noticable on the road. A 5.2 Madone performance weighs 16.4lbs out of the box, give or take depending on size.


Thanks, didn't know the RLs were new too. Are they the same hoops too as with the previous iterations of RLs and RXLs?


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

The rims are reported to be strenthened in the spokebed to support the 20h drilling on the rear rim. Previous RL and RXLs were 24h rears, the new wheels have crossed spokes on both sides increasing the number of pulling spokes over the previous wheels. I still love my 04' RXL's so I have no desire to change.


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## Roadweenie (Sep 24, 2007)

08Madone5.2 said:


> According to this review:
> http://www.chainreaction.com/madone_08_review.htm
> 
> The Red frame is only 65g lighter than the Black frame. Thats the equivalent of .143 lbs.
> The real difference is the high modulus and the layup of the carbon.


Just for the record, the weight difference is actually 90g for a 56cm, according to an email I received from Scott Daubert of Trek quoted below.

"You've found a discrepancy in our published weights. When the Red was still in development (June-Sept 07), we guessed the weight savings between the Red and Black would be about 160g (size 56cm). As the Red progressed through testing and ride evaluations, it was determined that ride quality started to suffer when the frame lost too much weight. (It should also be mentioned here that the Red bikes changed from the lighter orange color scheme to the heavier white/onyx scheme. The Red bikes got slightly heavier with the color change) 

So, the 90g difference between Red and Black is where we firmed things up. We never aimed to be the lightest bike in class with the new Madone and instead focused on crafting a balanced bike that does everything really well. Preserving the ride quality at the expense of a few grams is the direction we chose.

scott"


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

Well that should put an end to any speculation regarding the weight difference between the RED and BLACK Madone frames. Doesn't get any better than hearing it from Scott.

I know how much I love the ride of my 5.2, so I can only imagine that the 6 series frames will be unbelievable also.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

Just to bring this one up front, since it is relevant to the OCLV Red / Black frame decision:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/reviews/trek_madone6908

zac


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Its a fairly short review but, I think it pretty much answers the questions we all have pondered over - they are both excellent bicycles, with the 5.2 being solidly at the point of diminishing returns from a value and performance standpoint. I applaud Trek for maintaining the ride and handling qualities across the board. You may not be able to afford the best Trek but, you still get the best ride.


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## johnstone3 (Feb 3, 2007)

Yes, that recent Cycling News review sums it up pretty well. No difference in ride characteristics between red and black, but there is a small weight difference in the frame and fork, and a bigger weight difference when you take all the higher end components in to account.

As an aside, I further noticed that the new Cyling News article is claiming a 120 gram difference in weight between Red and Black carbon for a 54cm frame. plus 90 grams for the fork. In the Email from Trek's Scott Duabert that Roadweenie referenced above, Daubert purpotedly claimed a 90gram difference between Red and Black carbon for a 56cm frame, so there still seems to be a little incongruent information there, but probably not a big enough difference to worry about.


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## tg3895 (Mar 14, 2006)

Hey Zac,

Thanks for sharing that. Let's face it. The 5.2 is a solid all-around choice without breaking the bank. There are still those who only want the best and that's fine. But for a working stiff such as myself, I plan to keep this bike for years to come. Trek would probably have to re-invent the entire bike all over again for me to think about purchasing a new one. The article's advice about buying race wheels for the 5.2 and keeping the original wheels for training is on point.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

tg3895 said:


> Hey Zac,
> 
> Thanks for sharing that. Let's face it. The 5.2 is a solid all-around choice without breaking the bank. There are still those who only want the best and that's fine. But for a working stiff such as myself, I plan to keep this bike for years to come. Trek would probably have to re-invent the entire bike all over again for me to think about purchasing a new one. The article's advice about buying race wheels for the 5.2 and keeping the original wheels for training is on point.



No problem, thought it would be better to the thread for more information from other sources. 

Now with close to a thousand on my Red frame, but still unable to ride the 5.2 (Black) again, I must say that I agree with the review, and it was as I feel: that Red/Black is the same ride just with less a weight hit on the Red. But it is nice to see someone do the comparison under more controlled environment (common set of test wheels). If true about what Trek confirmed, pretty cool of them. 

tg: Not only is the 5.2 a solid all around choice, (and I think I said it above): The 5.2 and the 5.5 are the smartest ones to get. Now go out and ride it and prove it. BTW, what were you riding before you got the 5.2?

zac


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## tg3895 (Mar 14, 2006)

Zac, I am crossing over from the world of dirt. I rode a mountain bike exclusively for two years (2006 Trek Fuel EX 9...love that bike!!!) and got into mtb racing. I bought the 5.2 to train on for mtb racing, fell in love with the speed and handling of this bike and switched over to the world of skinny tires. I still ride my mtb here and there as I still enjoy getting out on the trails and being in the woods. In all honesty, I find both riding styles compliment each other nicely and keep things fresh. It's cool being able to switch between the two.

As for why the 5.2? I did my research and felt it was the best choice for a road bike since most mtb racers spend about 80% of their riding time on a road bike training with the remaining time to hone their technical skills on the trail. I was going for a 5.5, but felt the Ultegra SL groupset was good enough for what I needed. Plus I needed the extra bucks for pedals, cages and shoes.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

tg3895 said:


> Zac, I am crossing over from the world of dirt. I rode a mountain bike exclusively for two years (2006 Trek Fuel EX 9...love that bike!!!) and got into mtb racing. I bought the 5.2 to train on for mtb racing, fell in love with the speed and handling of this bike and switched over to the world of skinny tires. I still ride my mtb here and there as I still enjoy getting out on the trails and being in the woods. In all honesty, I find both riding styles compliment each other nicely and keep things fresh. It's cool being able to switch between the two.
> 
> As for why the 5.2? I did my research and felt it was the best choice for a road bike since most mtb racers spend about 80% of their riding time on a road bike training with the remaining time to hone their technical skills on the trail. I was going for a 5.5, but felt the Ultegra SL groupset was good enough for what I needed. Plus I needed the extra bucks for pedals, cages and shoes.



Cool, enjoy! Have to say that you went right to the top for a road machine, and nothing wrong with that. Must suck being in NYC and wanting to get out and ride though.


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