# Vino to Astana??



## Spin42 (Sep 8, 2004)

Be interesting if Vino races again....


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Rock and Kasak hard place*

I wonder if Bruyneel could be put in a tough place with this develpement? Could the Kazak sponsors compel Bruyneel into taking back Vino? The press and governing bodies will come down quite hard on whoever takes him back. I would guess no TDF start if they take Vino back...


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## jupiterrn (Sep 22, 2006)

Yeah, that is interesting that he wants back at Astana. That would pretty much make sure of no TDF invite this year or next or the next.


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## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

I don't see Bruyneel and LA tolerating Vino on the team. Contador, also has no love for Vino. Strings will be pulled to keep Vino, out of competition for another year and then they will jump to another sponsor and let Vino "have" Astana for what it will be worth (less than nothing). 
Currently Bruyneel has built a Tour winning team with Contador and Lance. He has brought Zubeldia onto the team to help Contador and Rubiera for Armstrong. Vino would turn the team into a Kazak circus.


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## zphogan (Jan 27, 2007)

Keep dreamin' Vino. Not going to happen.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

He's probably friends with the higher ups in Kazakhstan, but I'm sure Bruyneel _et all_ will invest some money into a doping prosecution fund against him.


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## roadie92 (Jan 21, 2008)

Hopefully he won't be wearing the Astana colors next year!


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

It'd be absolutely stupid for Astana (everyone there) to take him back. There is NO WAY Astana would be invited to the Tour with Vino back in (or at least, 95% unlikely).

It'd just be a huge mess. 

Then again, Basso would be allowed to compete but then, he didn't really take any stuff but just thought of it. So maybe that's the reason.


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## kretzel (Aug 1, 2007)

*If only...*

it were April 1. Then this would all make sense. Being October, this is crazy talk. 

Earth to Vino - put down the bong, step back slowly, noone gets hurt.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

In order to come back, Vino will have to pay the one year salary penalty he agreed to before he rode his last tour. Apparently Vino's salary in 2007 was $1.7 million, so unless he has that kind of cash lying around, or the Kazakh backers of Astana are going to kick in for him, I don't see Vino ever riding again.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

The best part about this is it means we are one step closer to Ulrich coming back. 

Procycling is the cockroach of the sporting world. Not matter how absurd it gets it will never die.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> In order to come back, Vino will have to pay the one year salary penalty he agreed to before he rode his last tour. Apparently Vino's salary in 2007 was $1.7 million, so unless he has that kind of cash lying around, or the Kazakh backers of Astana are going to kick in for him, I don't see Vino ever riding again.


Also, the UCI intends to appeal to extend his ban should he decide to really come back. So that could be a factor as well.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

On the other hand, imagine a team:
LA, AC, Leipheimer, Kloden, Vino, Zubeldia, Chechu, Horner + Iglinsky or Mizurov as a second kazakh.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

correct me if i'm wrong, but he got booted from the 07 tour, then retired. I don't think he's been suspended, has he? if not, then he should be suspended for 2 years, 'till 2010, and another 2 out of the protour. So he could return in 2012. ASO would NEVER let him back to the tour, regardless of what team he's on, or if he's served a dozen suspended years. I don't recall his suspensions, or what happen to him.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

jhamlin38 said:


> correct me if i'm wrong, but he got booted from the 07 tour, then retired. I don't think he's been suspended, has he? if not, then he should be suspended for 2 years, 'till 2010, and another 2 out of the protour. So he could return in 2012. ASO would NEVER let him back to the tour, regardless of what team he's on, or if he's served a dozen suspended years. I don't recall his suspensions, or what happen to him.


He was given a 1 year sentence by the Kazakh Fed, which just happens to be run by the owners of the Astana team. The UCI did not fight the shorter ban becuase Vino said he retired. He tried to come back for the Olympics but the IOC said no way, a positive test means a longer ban for the Olympics. 

No worries, a nice "Donation" and he is back.


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## teffisk (Mar 24, 2006)

I kinda hope he comes back. Don't get me wrong I hate dopers but I kinda have a thing for Vino. And I believe in second chances. I mean seriously, he served his term. Its over. If he was meant to be punished for longer they would have done it from the beginning. That whole subject ticks me off.


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## Edgecrusher (Jan 12, 2006)

I would love to see Vino back in the fold.
Astana or another team. Vino is such an unpredictable
and thrilling rider to see in action. he throws the peloton
into a panic and a frenzy when he is the fight. :thumbsup:


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

I know this is flame bait, but I enjoyed watching TDF when names like Vinokourov and Ullrich were in the peloton. Call me whatever, but if Vino is back, I will watch. If Jan is back, I will watch all 21stages.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=reu-vinokourov&prov=reuters&type=lgns


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

That does it -- Levi will turn 50 before he's eligible to lead the team.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Karma, Bruynel.... Karma


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## clint eastwood (Sep 14, 2008)

I really hope he returns to Astana. You can say whatever you like but Vino practically set up the whole team himself. It would be hypocrit not to let him join the team!

The only thing that really bothers me is that Lance and Contador are riding in the same team. This way there is no real compition in the tour. They can't attack eachother? That's what I call a gamefraud. It's simply not right. 
The whole issue of riding the tour is to see who's doing best. competing with eachother. It's a race in the end, no?
If these guys, I mean LA an Alberto, ride together, they might as well put all the favourites in the same team. Refusing Vino would be a big mistake, not to mention a joke.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Having Vino race again with Astana is sooo right on so many levels.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

from cyclingnews....

"He would like to ride for his former team Astana, although he has not yet held talks with the team. "But my fans would find it strange if I rode somewhere else," Vinokourov said. "The team was made for me because I wanted to win the Tour.""

Not a chance. He seems to have forgotten that the team was built for him <i>before</i> he was busted for doping. Despite the fact that he's Kazach, Astana wouldn't want him anyways, they already have the two best stage racers at the moment and it sounds like it's already set in stone that Armstrong will be riding for them next season. Contador, Leipheimer and Armstrong will produce so much more press coverage than Vino could hope to.....and the only press he'd generate would be negative. Beyond that, how many grand tour leaders does a single team need?


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## tricycletalent (Apr 2, 2005)

I hope he bribes some UCI officials, and I hope he is coming back, so we can have some REAL drama going on in the Astana squad. Haha, the house will be on FIRE! Team mates attacking each other, not gathering around one single member. Will be fun.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> The best part about this is it means we are one step closer to Ulrich coming back.


If Ullrich comes back, I hope he joins Astana.


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## celeste55 (Aug 15, 2007)

Vino is the man. Hands down. He was the most exciting racer to watch. I hope he comes back, and returns Astana to the badass team that it used to be before Bruyneel came along and ruined it by americanizing it with Trek, nike, and worst of all, Levi.


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## btinder (Aug 25, 2007)

celeste55 said:


> Vino is the man. Hands down. He was the most exciting racer to watch. I hope he comes back, and returns Astana to the badass team that it used to be before Bruyneel came along and ruined it by americanizing it with Trek, nike, and worst of all, Levi.


Oh man is so badass to be disgraced on an international level, get kicked out of the Tour de France, and require a near complete revision of a team. SOOOO BADASS  

Astana is more successful now that it ever would have been under Vino. No way he's coming back. No way he *should* come back.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

It really up to the sponsors here. Let's see what they want.


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

if they activate his 2 year suspension he won't be eligible til late 2009.. plus i think he owes the library some late fees.... 

I still remember his last tour when he got injured and lost a lot of time, then blew apart the peloton and won a TT.. even tho he doped, that was probably one of the most exciting Tours i've seen.

I really hope he gets to ride.. and yes, game fraud is the right word. everyone should get their own team, that'd make it interesting... Ullrich needs to revive Tmobile.. and this time he needs to win.


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## celeste55 (Aug 15, 2007)

btinder said:


> Oh man is so badass to be disgraced on an international level, get kicked out of the Tour de France, and require a near complete revision of a team. SOOOO BADASS
> 
> Astana is more successful now that it ever would have been under Vino. No way he's coming back. No way he *should* come back.


i dont care how successful they are now, they lost what made them such a cool team: vino, and that euro panache.


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## btinder (Aug 25, 2007)

celeste55 said:


> i dont care how successful they are now, they lost what made them such a cool team: vino, and that euro panache.


Oh please, thats your opinion of whats exciting. My opinion of exciting is Lance and Leipheimer.


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

btinder said:


> Oh please, thats your opinion of whats exciting. My opinion of exciting is Lance and Leipheimer.



I like Lance and Leipheimer, but that could be the boringest Tour we'd ever see. wait... I seem to recall a few of those years starting in 99...


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## btinder (Aug 25, 2007)

OneGear said:


> I like Lance and Leipheimer, but that could be the boringest Tour we'd ever see. wait... I seem to recall a few of those years starting in 99...


The Lance years were about Lance vs. Ullrich, and amounted to some of the greatest sport in a long time.


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## celeste55 (Aug 15, 2007)

i liked lance, and im not sure what i think about his return. Levi is just about the most boring person to watch race, behind cadel probably. levi should retire. asap.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

btinder said:


> amounted to some of the greatest sport in a long time.


that is just hilarious!


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

celeste55 said:


> i dont care how successful they are now, they lost what made them such a cool team: vino, and that euro panache.


Yes...I guess that Euro panache that your refer to means....ugly a** sunglasses and miracleous timre trialing? Oh yeah...we need much more of that. If Vino gets to race with Astana and Bruyneel and LA go along with that then I am done with them. Why would LA associate himself with a disgraced rider? I don't see it happening.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

celeste55 said:


> i liked lance, and im not sure what i think about his return. Levi is just about the most boring person to watch race, behind cadel probably. levi should retire. asap.


At least Levi doesn't complain about his team publicly and he does attack more than Cadel does in general anyway.

Just sayin.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

clint eastwood said:


> but the fact is that Contador and LA will ride in the same team for sure and it means 2 contenders for the tour are riding together. They will not compete with eachother. It is game fraude.


WTF are you talking about? Pro cycling is a TEAM sport. The riders on each team are *supposed* to collectively help each other meet the team's goals, which in this case is to win the TdF GC. When a hockey player or euro footballer passes to his team mate to set up a goal, is that also fraud?


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## teffisk (Mar 24, 2006)

Circlip said:


> WTF are you talking about? Pro cycling is a TEAM sport. The riders on each team are *supposed* to collectively help each other meet the team's goals, which in this case is to win the TdF GC. When a hockey player or euro footballer passes to his team mate to set up a goal, is that also fraud?


He is just saying it sucks that potentially two best riders have to help each other. It would be a much better show to see them compete against each other. Thats the fraud.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

btinder said:


> Lance never tested positive, Vino did.
> 
> Astana was *taken away* from Vino when he disgraced himself, the team, and cycling, by doping. Its under new management and has new riders. Vino is as foreign to Astana as he would have been to Postal.


But don't forget that the people financing Astana are still the ones Vino put there himself, that they are also the ones giving him a ridiculous suspension and that they are very likely to call Johan and say that if he wants his budget, he has to take Vino and actually have him race the races he wants to...


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

teffisk said:


> Thats the fraud.


Time to swallow a dose of reality. For every hardcore enthusiast that would appreciate a good GC battle, there are many, many people in the general populace who will only see the headlines of who wins. The advertising dollars of the sponsors, and in turn the income of the team's owners, are far more dependent on the reach of media into the general public. The more they can do to guarantee themselves a win the better they are positioning themselves to achieve their business goals.

Sure, it sucks from the perspective of a true cycling fan, but professional cycling like any other professional sport is a business, plain and simple.


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## clint eastwood (Sep 14, 2008)

That's what I didn't like about US Postal and Discovery Channel in the first place.
They always had the very best pro's in their team. LA never had any real competition from other teams except for 1 or 2 years. His teammates were still riding in the front while other favourites from other teams already had to slow down.
They have to except Vino in this perspective, it would be hypocrite not to!

I know it isn't a doping form but when you say LA isn't associating himself with disgraced riders we are forgetting that a lot of his former teammates appeared to be dopers. Heras, Hamilton, Landis, Gusev, Beltran, Padrnos, etc..
Sorry guys, but I don't believe these guys started after riding fo LA.
Vino is probably no exception. Let him back on the team I say.
And I think Basso should also make his come back really soon. (not in Astana) This way we'll have some competition!


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## btinder (Aug 25, 2007)

clint eastwood said:


> That's what I didn't like about US Postal and Discovery Channel in the first place.
> They always had the very best pro's in their team. LA never had any real competition from other teams except for 1 or 2 years. His teammates were still riding in the front while other favourites from other teams already had to slow down.
> They have to except Vino in this perspective, it would be hypocrite not to!
> 
> ...


I disagree. Armstrong had to contend with Basso, Ullrich, Mayo, Boleki, Vino, etc. throughout his 7 tours. Postal/Disco never had any real GC riders under Armstrong except for Landis and Hamilton, both who road against Lance in the latter tours.


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## clint eastwood (Sep 14, 2008)

that's what I'm saying. He had a lot of GC riders but they had to work for LA. Heras, Landis, Hamilton, Levi, etc..


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

btinder said:


> The Lance years were about Lance vs. Ullrich, and amounted to some of the greatest sport in a long time.


have you been watching 'The Big Six' again? 

Yeah, it was a good battle, but LA had helpers that could have been GC leaders on different teams. He had specialists in all categories. Now if those pros were on a different team, it would have been a lot more exciting. Instead during those years there were some good GC men with no stand out support. It's no wonder LA can always kick it up a notch to win it, or put massive time on his opponents.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

I don't care what happens as long as Hinault throws somebody off a stage.


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## kneejerk (Feb 2, 2007)

If Vino comes back to Astana, that would just go to show that pro cyclists and cycling has little concern about doping. I think that would be pretty darn sleazy.


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## clint eastwood (Sep 14, 2008)

we can say the same about LA


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Vino's agent said he is shopping him around to other teams and Astana is not the only option.


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

Why do some think Vino will ride next year? Floyd Landis has a better chance of riding one of the GrandTours than Vino. Vino will have to serve another year before he could come back. AT BEST, Vino could possibly race after July 09. But I doubt whatever team he is on will get a Veulta invite.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

The guy who runs the Astana Team, Nikolai Proskurin, says he is happy to have Vino return

http://sport.gazeta.kz/art/?aid=34784

The UCI may have a different view.....but a nice donation may change their mind.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

bigpinkt said:


> The guy who runs the Astana Team, Nikolai Proskurin, says he is happy to have Vino return
> 
> http://sport.gazeta.kz/art/?aid=34784
> 
> The UCI may have a different view.....but a nice donation may change their mind.


UCI - different view than who?

What Proskurin said: "Vino, most likely, will come back to Astana. Of course, only if UCI gives him a permission to compete. We will gladly accept him."

Q: A large number of team leaders, would not that be a problem for the team?

Proskurin: No problem at all. We planned everything already: a leader for Giro is Lance Armstrong. TdF - Contador. And Vuelta - whoever feels better - we have Levi, Kloden, perhaps Vino may join.


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

sokudo said:


> UCI - different view than who?
> 
> What Proskurin said: "Vino, most likely, will come back to Astana. Of course, only if UCI gives him a permission to compete. We will gladly accept him."
> 
> ...


Are you in favour of him coming back into the sport? Or should I say, do you believe he should be allowed?

Edit!!! No need to answer that...doesn't matter...just read through the thread and am pretty surprised at some of the positive responses towards his return, to say the least...anyways, this is not the approprite forum for that discussion, so I'll drop it...

Cycling and that cockroach analogy by BigPinkt is more apt every year though...Car crash tv is another...If he does come back, there really is no point to this...any of it....
The irony, if it does happen, of a doper being forced upon Bruyneel!!!!


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

sokudo said:


> UCI - different view than who?


Proskurin. 

Proskurin says he is happy to have him back, but the UCI may not approve. The Kazakh Fed only gave him a one year penalty, when two is the rule. The UCI did not pursue it as Vino said he was retiring. Now that he is not retiring the UCI has said that they have an issue with the shorter term.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

How so?

Proskurin said that he is happy to have Vino back if UCI approves it.

The difference between his words and your interpretation (based on your phrasing) is that for him UCI comes first,and without UCI approval Vino would not be accepted into a team, while you are're saying that he will accept Vino first and then deal with UCI. And that clearly is opposite what he said.

Besides, keep in mind that an interview was for an internal audience. Of course, Proskurin would love to have back a national hero and the second most famous nation's sportsman. 



bigpinkt said:


> Proskurin.
> 
> Proskurin says he is happy to have him back, but the UCI may not approve. The Kazakh Fed only gave him a one year penalty, when two is the rule. The UCI did not pursue it as Vino said he was retiring. Now that he is not retiring the UCI has said that they have an issue with the shorter term.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

What is your view of baseball? 
American football? Do you think the whole league should be thrown away?
How are things in NBA?
Or what about euro soccer?
What kind of testing is done in tennis?

As far as doping in cycling, it would be nice to ensure a level playing field and to prevent use of drugs that may cause serious and unrecoverable health damage.
A predictable and equal treatment of doping cases would be nice, too. 

However, a current hysterical climate is not helpful. When you see politicos in Germany essentialy forcing a closure of the sport in the country or innocent Bastianelli getting 2 year suspension for effectively nothing, while Hamilton is still an olympic champion and the results of 2008 Giro are left unchanged, the question of Vino's return after his suspension is not of much moral importance. It is up to other riders, such as Kloden, to say whether to accept him. 



Digger28 said:


> Are you in favour of him coming back into the sport? Or should I say, do you believe he should be allowed?
> 
> Edit!!! No need to answer that...doesn't matter...just read through the thread and am pretty surprised at some of the positive responses towards his return, to say the least...anyways, this is not the approprite forum for that discussion, so I'll drop it...
> 
> ...


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

sokudo said:


> How so?
> 
> Proskurin said that he is happy to have Vino back if UCI approves it.
> 
> ...


I am not sure I understand your semantics however I think it is clear that Proskurin would like Vino back, regardless of what the UCI says. They are long time personal friends. They started and built the team together and as you say Vino is a National Hero. 

The UCI may have a different opinion, in fact they have already said they do. Vino has said that that he has already sent his notice to the UCI saying he wants to come back, in April. That would be at least 3 months earlier then the UCI may be comfortable with. It will be interesting to see their response.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

Are you talking about mind crimes?

Proskurin said that he will follow UCI, and would not act unless UCI approves Vino's return. Why is that not enough for you? Are we worried about purity of Proskurin's thoughts and motives?

To give an example of similar appoach, if X would like to dope, i.e., has a passive wish to dope that X does not act upon, that is not a crime. When X dopes or at least has an actionable intent to dope , then it becomes a crime. I guess Ivan Basso falls into the latter category.

Proskurin has a wish to see Vino back. That is understandable and some people do not like it but that is not a crime. Proskurin claims he would not act unless UCI approves. Whatever is opinion of UCI Proskurin will follow it. That should suffice unless we're looking for mind crimes.

I guess UCI will tell Vino to come back after TdF to have him out for at least 2 years. But they will approve him at some point. That will put Bruyneel in a pickle. Bruyneel will talk to tour organizers and make sure that Astana for TdF 2010 has no Vino. Giro 2010 will likely accept him. I have no idea whether new Vuelta director would like Vino in Vuelta 2009 or ever but Astana will acomodate it.
Other unknown is a team reaction: whether any of the stars may feel strongly against riding with Vino upon his UCI-approved return. That, I guess, can be resolved.

I wonder whether they UCI may apply 4 year ban retroactively.

Upon that final thought, I am to complete beating of the dead horse.



bigpinkt said:


> I am not sure I understand your semantics however I think it is clear that Proskurin would like Vino back, regardless of what the UCI says. They are long time personal friends. They started and built the team together and as you say Vino is a National Hero.
> 
> The UCI may have a different opinion, in fact they have already said they do. Vino has said that that he has already sent his notice to the UCI saying he wants to come back, in April. That would be at least 3 months earlier then the UCI may be comfortable with. It will be interesting to see their response.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

sokudo said:


> Are you talking about mind crimes?
> 
> Proskurin said that he will follow UCI, and would not act unless UCI approves Vino's return. Why is that not enough for you? Are we worried about purity of Proskurin's thoughts and motives?
> 
> ...


While you lost me on the UCI/Proskurin mind crime stuff....but you raise a good point on the 4 year ban.

It appears the Pro Tour still exists. Does this mean that Vino cannot ride for Astana becuase of the 4 year Pro Tour ban? Vino also signed the agreement that he would forfeit a years salary if he tested positive. The UCI has been clear that riders will need to pay if they want to get back in the sport and Vino has said the agreement is not worth the paper is was written on. He also recently said he would not mind waiting until July to return 

It should be interesting to see how/if the UCI responds and if the rules are bent.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

bigpinkt said:


> ....but you raise a good point on the 4 year ban.
> 
> It appears the Pro Tour still exists. Does this mean that Vino cannot ride for Astana becuase of the 4 year Pro Tour ban?


What is the shape of the PT on '09? Inquiring minds want to know!

Wasn't the extra time imposed by the PT actually supposed to be double the WADA-prescribed ban? So a two-year ban turned into four years.

In Vino's case, since the Kazakh federation imposed a one-year ban, the UCI could potentially "compromise" on two total years.

JSR


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

sokudo said:


> What is your view of baseball?
> American football? Do you think the whole league should be thrown away?
> How are things in NBA?
> Or what about euro soccer?
> ...


To be fair to you, I was wrong to reply to your particular post...Apologies...
I was genuinely annoyed with some of the positive vibes about his return, both on this forum and elsewhere...For me, if someone like him is welcomed back, we're pi**ing against the wind...
As I say thoughr, you make some pertinent and fair points...And engaging with you on this topic, would be like preaching to the converted, as we certainly seem to be on the same side of the fence...
I suppose two wrongs don't make a right though...Incidentally, for me personally, the German reaction is positive for the most part...It brings things to a head in a big, big cycling audience...the fear though is that the UCI will cover things up to save their pot of gold....

P.S. I am European, so my knowledge of those particular US sports doesn't stretch far beyong BALCO!!!!


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## bianchi77 (Jul 15, 2008)

is Vino joining with Armstrong in Astana ? Anyone know the information ?


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