# Is it doping if you can buy it over the counter?



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

Ok, so a common doper treatment is testosterone and EPO. Both of which are illegal though we all know you can get it if you really want to and are willing to take the chance of going to jail as well as deal with the fact that you are a cheater. Not that you don't still have to work hard to obtain your goals mind you but you are still cheating!

Ok with that out of the way, I was wondering if anyone tried stacking supplements in an effort to create this same sort of affect. Basically you can buy any number of testosterone boosters over the counter. You aren't really taking in additional testosterone but rather causing your body to better use and even increase the levels of testosterone that it already makes. Basically better utilizing free test that is naturally occuring in your body now.

I can say that at a couple of years ago I did try one of these over the counter test boosters with good results. I can't remember which one it was or if it is even on the market today. But I can say that during my stint as a gym rat it did boost my strength and I did seem to recover faster between workouts. I never experienced any side affects though I did only take it for about a month.

This past summer while in the search for something to help prevent me from cramping I tried Optigen along with EFS and had great results as well. The Optigen was a little expensive ($48 on Amazon for 1 bottle = 1 month) and EFS typically runs about $25/can.

I am wondering if the combination of the 3 might help to boost ones strength, recovery, as well as stamina out on the bike. 

I have heard many say that the over the counter test boosters don't do anything. But I can say that from first hand experience, my strength definitely shot up and I did recover faster. With that information I will simply say that the one I tried worked for me.

I am now thinking that I may just try such a stack out in the spring but was just curious if anyone else might have considered doing this. Also curious if you guys would still consider this doping even though it is all legal as you can pick up any of these products at GNC or your local nutrition store (I actually think it is harder to find Optigen and EFS than the test booster honestly).


----------



## teknohippy (May 20, 2011)

Just worth noting some things are legal to buy but illegal to race.


----------



## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Whether a drug is available OTC or by prescription only has nothing to do with whether it is prohibited by sports organizations. Plenty of banned drugs can be bought OTC, including testosterone supplements, stimulants (like pseudoephedrine) and many others.

So, yeah, it could be doping, even if it's "legal."


----------



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

Good point! Unfotunately I haven't raced in years so I don't even know what you can and can't use any more. Ok, with that said i'll have to go see what is legal and not legal as far as ameture racing is concerned. 

None the less, has anyone tried anything like this?


----------



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

Not sure I will get my liscense this up coming year or not. I simply don't have that sort of time to dedicate to training. I may however partake in some of our local training races held weekly in my area just to get that competitve buzz out of me. I really don't forsee me taking any sort of test booster for an extended amount of time if I do end up giving this any more thought.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Buy the most expensive product you can find because its effect is due solely to your expectation that it will work (the product itself doesn't do anything mechanistically since prohormones were banned). The more expensive, the more expectation that it wlll work. All part of the placebo effect. Also, forget you read this so the effect doesn't go away...


----------



## teknohippy (May 20, 2011)

http://www.wada-ama.org/documents/w...ed-list/2012/wada_prohibited_list_2012_en.pdf


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Legal or not, against the rules or not, I think it's lame that you don't have time to dedicate to training but you are posting and asking about PEDs.


----------



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

I can honestly say that the idea came to mind as I am reading "the doper next door". And yes, my schedule sucks but I'm sure I could make a little more time for training if indeed I do decide to race. I can also say that I'm an honest person and if the substance is/was not legal to race with then I wouldn't be taking it. I do feel that it could give you a dishonest edge which in my book would be considered cheating. 

However, if I am simply trying to improve my ride quality and overall fittness then it really shouldn't make a difference. No one harps on Gatorade, Optigen, EFS, EPO Boost or any other otc's that you can pick up at the bike shop so how is this any different. They all claim to help you improve in one fashion or another. Though I do agree that some may not be legal in sanctioned racing and I agree w/ and support that. This was all just a simple wuetion to fellow board members out there. 

As far as the placebo affect I agree and disagree. I have had supplements go both ways for me. I have experienced true results w/ some and none w/ others that I honestly thought were working. I do agree that most often the most expensive product is often the one w/ the most publicity and false claims. Muscle Tech comes to mind actually. 

Just as an fyi, I do plan on trying to ride/train this winter. We will see how things go and what the kids/family schedule looks like as the summer grows closer before I make a decision to race or not. Worst case is that I do my normal couple of mtb races and some supported rides. None of which require me to be on some sort of PED plan as mentioned above.


----------



## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Placebo effect. This has been discussed ad nauseum in bodybuilding forums. These are just snake oils that don't do jack for your T levels. If they did, they'd be illegal and banned. You seem to think that natural/synthetic is how they draw their lines for banning, but it's what works or doesn't work. Remember when ephedrine supplements were banned? This includes Ma Haung which is a natural herb. That's because it really works. T boosters do not.



1spd said:


> I have heard many say that the over the counter test boosters don't do anything. But I can say that from first hand experience, my strength definitely shot up and I did recover faster. With that information I will simply say that the one I tried worked for me.
> 
> .


----------



## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

pretender said:


> Legal or not, against the rules or not, I think it's lame that you don't have time to dedicate to training but you are posting and asking about PEDs.


PED is really just a matter of degree or opinion. 

How many of us use gels? Hydration drinks? Energy bars? 

Those are all performance enhancing. 

Then you can get into various supplements and amino acids.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

NJBiker72 said:


> PED is really just a matter of degree or opinion.
> 
> How many of us use gels? Hydration drinks? Energy bars?
> 
> ...


food. the new super dope


----------



## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> Buy the most expensive product you can find because its effect is due solely to your expectation that it will work (the product itself doesn't do anything mechanistically since prohormones were banned). The more expensive, the more expectation that it wlll work. All part of the placebo effect. *Also, forget you read this so the effect doesn't go away...*


----------



## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

NJBiker72 said:


> PED is really just a matter of degree or opinion.
> 
> How many of us use gels? Hydration drinks? Energy bars?
> 
> ...


You left out water.


----------



## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

None of those are pharmacologicals. Most people draw their line there...thus *P*eformance *E*nhancing *Drugs*




NJBiker72 said:


> PED is really just a matter of degree or opinion.
> 
> How many of us use gels? Hydration drinks? Energy bars?
> 
> ...


----------



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

I remember back in 95 when I was stationed in Panama and was officially a gym rat. I took a preworkout supplement called Hot Stuff. I took half the dose about 30 min before my work out at abot 4:30 PM. At 2 AM I was wide eyed in bed sweating yet cold! It had Ma Haung in it. I never took it again! 

I agree as far as whether it works or not as far as making new testosterone. That it does not. The newer test boosters are not designed to work like the real thing or like a prohormone that basically converts to the real thing once it is in your body. Instead, it helps to free up the testosterone your body already makes. I thought I read that they actually help to block estrogen receptors which thus allows the testosterone your body already makes be more readily available.

Again, regardless of the placebo effect or whatever. I can say that I saw strength gains. It did not happen an hour after I took it but rather about 2 weeks or so after taking it daily. It was not significant but I can say that I increased the amount lifted in every lift I performed. Now lets say it was a placebo effect that I experienced. If I managed to increase in strength after taking this product that did absolutely nothing but cost me $40 then I still think that the mental boost was worth the $40 spent. 

Research has actually shown that testosterone production in males has actually been linked to ones mental state. It is hard for research to be conducted thru the benefits and use of test. I mean you can't simply grab a bunch of jocks or average joes and start injecting them with different doses while putting them all on the same training plan to see what happens. I work for the National Institutes of Health and actually know a little bit about medical research and how it is supposed to be conducted, the grant process, and work with medical researches on a daily basis in the medical research facility that I not only work at but manage. Trust me, if research could be done in such a fashion every supplement company would be all over it.

Again, however, like you said and you are correct, substances are pulled because of what they can do and not by what they claim or whether they are natural or synthetics.


----------



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

Well then, with that said, the test boosters that I am referring to that can be purchased otc are technically considered "supplements" and have not been evaluated by the FDA. Technically they are not PE"Drugs". So let's just call the PES's for now. And now that we are calling the supplements, they are now in the same class as whey protein and creatine. Supplements that many of us have taken at one point or another.


----------



## Used2Run (Sep 5, 2012)

The problem with a lot of stuff you can buy OTC and at GNC is that they are laced with things that are illegal. Most of these companies will not back you up if you take their supplement and test positive because there's always the chance that "something got mixed in" the supplement you bought. If they didn't have EPO or testosterone at the factory then this wouldn't be a problem. Many supplements are very sketchy at best. Be careful...


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Dang with all the time spent typing you could be out riding your bike.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

GNC is the last place to go. Overpriced and clueless. 

Friends don't let friends buy from GNC.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

There are many performance enhancers which have nothing to do with drugs or potions. 

Take an afternoon nap, learn about training or get a coach, make sure to get a full night's sleep, eat healthy & whole foods and when you must supplement just make a whey protein shake...OTC supplements that may cause you to test positive (and may not have any performance enhancing benefits) should be low on the list. If you want an edge over your competition train smart and hard; ride hard AND rest hard.


----------



## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> There are many performance enhancers which have nothing to do with drugs or potions.
> 
> Take an afternoon nap, learn about training or get a coach, make sure to get a full night's sleep, eat healthy & whole foods and when you must supplement just make a whey protein shake...OTC supplements that may cause you to test positive (and may not have any performance enhancing benefits) should be low on the list. If you want an edge over your competition train smart and hard; ride hard AND rest hard.


Move to Leadville, CO and train at that altitude ( > 10,000').


----------



## Sean.B (Jul 20, 2012)

It's not like this guy is taking X pill is replacing hours of training, proper nutrition and rest. It's not like if I got all hoped up on EPO, I'll be able to ride the Tour next year. 

I've taken test boosters before, and personally, I haven't noticed any huge performance gains, at least during swimming/cycling workouts. When I used to lift weights, I noticed a small increase, like the difference between getting that last rep or not. And it was easier for me to put on lean mass. 

My opinion, as long as your not racing, or whatever your taking is allowed in said race, than do whatever you want. 

To the original poster, I'm currently using Ultragen, same manufacturer as Optigen, and I really like it. It leaves me feeling very satisfied after a hard workout. It is pretty expensive, like the rest of First Endurance's stuff.


----------



## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

den bakker said:


> food. the new super dope


Ever read the contents of some of those? Hardly all natural. I have used gels and drinks with Argenine and or caffeine. Aren't those performance enhancing? Both legal. Both available in foods although maybe not in the same form.


----------



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

*I Doped*

Well not really. 

I had a race coming up and about three weeks before my asthma was out of control. The doctor gave me a very strong pack of drugs that were prescribed to normalize my inflamed lungs. I don't remember the entire list of drugs, but there was a steroid, a pill with a bunch of caffeine, an inhaler to open my lungs. It was a nasty dose that gave me insomnia for a week or so. 

I realized there was a chance that the drugs could either help or hinder my performance. I reckoned the steroid was not the right type, but here's to hoping, and the caffeine and increasing my ability to take oxygen with an inhaler might help. There may have been an antihistamine in there too. I was aware that these had been a preferred method of doping in during the Merckx years.

Anyway, I took the pills through the training leading up to the race. No hard work outs though. 

Then on race day, I popped my pills and took a puff from the inhaler. The doctor said, I could race, but to "not over do it."

I felt really good for forty minutes. The hill climb was excellent. I passed several strong riders. I thought there might have been something to it. I felt light and easy. 

Then the cramps started. First in the calf. Then I lost all energy. Then my quads cramped as I tried to get of my bike. Then My leg got stuck in a cramp at 90 degrees over the top tube as quads and hamstrings conspired against me. I was a physical mess. The pills had had the opposite effect. I could manage 14-17mph top speed. 

My lesson in over the counter doping.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Doping is already defined for us by WADA in their Prohibited list, we need not concern ourselves with trying to decide what is and isn't doping. Read the list. Simple.

If you want to understand how something (a substance or method) is declared to be doping, then read the WADA code. It's pretty straightforward.

Performance enhancing alone is an insufficient criteria to be classed as doping. Likewise, there are things classified as doping but are not performance enhancing per se.


Further to that, when considering supplements or methods of various kinds, there are of course other considerations such as:

- rules of the sport (e.g. code of conduct)
- legality (i.e. the laws governing the State you are in)
- ethical considerations (e.g. pumping an 11 year old with 500mg of caffeine)

but these are not _doping _questions as such.


----------



## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

to the O.P.

you're starting to sound like the 'poor man's' Joe Papp


----------



## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Dajianshan said:


> an inhaler to open my lungs


Inhalers commonly contain clenbuterol.

Anyone ever hear of that one?


----------



## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Doping is already defined for us by WADA in their Prohibited list, we need not concern ourselves with trying to decide what is and isn't doping. Read the list. Simple.
> 
> If you want to understand how something (a substance or method) is declared to be doping, then read the WADA code. It's pretty straightforward.
> 
> ...


That is wada's definition. Unless you are competing in an event sanctioned by them or using the rules they make up, why does their opinion matter more than anyone else's?


----------



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

I can honestly say that I don't want to feel like I am cheating in any sort of competition. Honestly, I like coming out of it feeling like I did my best and I survived. I have good days and bad days just like eveyrone else. I managed a 3rd place 2 years ago in my first ever mtb race. I raced in the beginners class (10.5 miles). Even though I had years of racing on the road and many years riding a mtb off and on, I never actually raced one. I also hadn't ridden my mtb more than 22 miles leading up to that race at any given time so trying to race a 20 miler just didn't seem logical. I raced in the 35-40 yr old class. I rode a steel 26" rigid single speed. I was one of 3 others that did the same out of a group of 43. In the end I felt great about my placing but couldn't help feel that perhaps I should have competed in a harder class. My 3rd place time in my class was equal to the 5 place time in the next younger age grouping that started 2 minutes ahead of us. I was accused of sandbagging by some of my friends but they also knew that I probably would have gassed out at mile 15 had I done the Sport class race. It is what it is.

As far as supplements go, I have tried many things in my life time. Somethings worked for me and some didn't. Some worked great for friends of mine but did nothing for me and vice versa. Our bodies are all different. I may or may not try such a stack as I mentioned but was simply curious if anyone else had thought of it. I did not however think about what would be considered legal as far as being on it in competition and for that I do apologize.

Lastly, I don't shop at GNC. That place is a rip off. I am also a personal trainer part time and have been for over 12 years now. I have quite a few friends that are either nutritionists, supplement freaks, roid freaks, or scientists. Often supplement discussions come up. Test boosters have for sure and we have all agreed that while there was no substantial gains we all did notice a bit of an increase here and there when we tried them. As mentioned, able to make that last rep, or add 5 lls to the lift over what we did last time and still get a solid number of reps in with it. We all toned up a little though no one really put on any quatifiable amount of weight while using it. I will say that none of use it for more than a month so we don't know what could have happened had we continued. I suspect much of nothing which is why we sort of all stopped taking it to start with. But that was all geared towards lifting and not riding which is what has me a little curious at this point.


----------



## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

1spd said:


> I can honestly say that I don't want to feel like I am cheating in any sort of competition.


There's cheating and there's cheating.

If you take something, not knowing that there's some ban on one of the ingredients, and go racing, I wouldn't say your cheating. Cheating, in my mind, has a measure in intent. If you took something to gain an edge, knowing full-well that it was a banned substance, then yes, that's cheating. If you honestly don't know and compete, you're breaking the rules.

Either way, it's rule-breaking, and should be treated as such.

Sometimes calling someone a "cheat" isn't exactly fair or appropriate, but if the shoe fits ....


----------



## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

1spd you're going down the wrong path imo. Searching for a "legal PED" rather than learn about real nutrition and how to train to improve performance is much like a lawyer finding a loophole in the system to get what the client wants w/o fixing the problem. Sorry man, lame.


----------



## Sean.B (Jul 20, 2012)

Do you guys think body builders that juice just go to the gym and put in a half ass work out, than go home an have pizza and ice cream, and maintain single digit body fat percentage? 

Its the same for a cyclist, he's not taking one thing that is going to fix everything.


----------



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

Good Ol' Joe. Sorry you feel that way. 

My diet is in check and I actually eat quite well. I have good rest habbits, cycle my training between different activities though I am trying to work out a winter riding plan that will help to build up my endurance. I'm hoping to do a couple fo organized century rides as well as maybe participate in a couple weekly held local training races and group rides. Not even sure if I will do my normal round of mtb races this up coming year at this point. I just know that I want to be able to get out there and ride a little harder, faster, and longer this up coming year. So it will definitely be more about the training than the supplements (other than optigen and EFS as that really helped me to get my cramping under control). 

Yes, I had a cramping issue and 3 different doctors weren't sure why. I appeared to be hydrated according to my blood levels but for whatever reason, my body couldn't seem to distribute/flush the lactic acid regardless of how much I was drinking. So one of them suggested I try the EFS and Optigen and it worked quite well for me. Aside from taking a protein shake here and there I think that is probably all I'll end up using.


----------



## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Clenbuterol is not used in the U.S. because of its long half life. You have to go to Mexico (or elsewhere) to get it.



metoou2 said:


> Inhalers commonly contain clenbuterol.
> 
> Anyone ever hear of that one?


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Many inhalers have albuteral.


----------



## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Robert1 said:


> Clenbuterol is not used in the U.S. because of its long half life. You have to go to Mexico (or elsewhere) to get it.


Have an inhaler in the old medicine cabinet right now................Clenbuterol. 

It is (1) yr old and I no longer use it. Are you saying it was recently banned?

No, don't answer that................I don't care.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

1spd said:


> Good Ol' Joe. Sorry you feel that way.
> 
> My diet is in check and I actually eat quite well. I have good rest habbits, cycle my training between different activities though I am trying to work out a winter riding plan that will help to build up my endurance. I'm hoping to do a couple fo organized century rides as well as maybe participate in a couple weekly held local training races and group rides. Not even sure if I will do my normal round of mtb races this up coming year at this point. I just know that I want to be able to get out there and ride a little harder, faster, and longer this up coming year. So it will definitely be more about the training than the supplements (other than optigen and EFS as that really helped me to get my cramping under control).
> 
> Yes, I had a cramping issue and 3 different doctors weren't sure why. I appeared to be hydrated according to my blood levels but for whatever reason, my body couldn't seem to distribute/flush the lactic acid regardless of how much I was drinking. So one of them suggested I try the EFS and Optigen and it worked quite well for me. Aside from taking a protein shake here and there I think that is probably all I'll end up using.


Did you really talk to three separate physicians about your leg cramps? Were you doctor shopping? And did a licensed physician really tell you to try EFS and Optigen? Really? 

Next, the idea of "riding just a little harder, faster, longer" has no end. You're best bet is hard training and proper rest. If that doesn't work maybe you should accept your physical limitations. That said, I don't mean to be harsh. Good luck with your training and racing.


----------



## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

*Asthma*

What do asthma sufferers use today? Is it legal? If not, are they supposed to just suffer asthma attacks mid race while non asthmatics pass on by?


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> What do asthma sufferers use today? Is it legal? If not, are they supposed to just suffer asthma attacks mid race while non asthmatics pass on by?


One of my friends at the track has an albuteral inhaler. He was diagnosed with asthma as a child. 

He uses it openly. Nobody complains.


----------



## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> One of my friends at the track has an albuteral inhaler. He was diagnosed with asthma as a child.
> 
> He uses it openly. Nobody complains.


From WADA's banned substance list:

_All beta-2 agonists (including both optical isomers where relevant) are prohibited except salbutamol (maximum 1600 micrograms over 24 hours), formoterol (maximum 36 micrograms over 24 hours) and salmeterol when taken by inhalation in accordance with the manufacturers’ recommended therapeutic regime.

The presence in urine of salbutamol in excess of 1000 ng/mL or formoterol in excess of 30 ng/mL is presumed not to be an intended therapeutic use of the substance and will be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding unless the Athlete proves, through a controlled pharmacokinetic study, that the abnormal result was the consequence of the use of the therapeutic inhaled dose up to the maximum indicated above._

From what I've been able to gather, salbutamol and albuterol are the same thing.


----------



## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Clenbuterol has never been approved for use in the U.S. Other countries, yes you can get it legally.



metoou2 said:


> Have an inhaler in the old medicine cabinet right now................Clenbuterol.
> 
> It is (1) yr old and I no longer use it. Are you saying it was recently banned?
> 
> No, don't answer that................I don't care.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

mpre53 said:


> From WADA's banned substance list:
> 
> _All beta-2 agonists (including both optical isomers where relevant) are prohibited except salbutamol (maximum 1600 micrograms over 24 hours), formoterol (maximum 36 micrograms over 24 hours) and salmeterol when taken by inhalation in accordance with the manufacturers’ recommended therapeutic regime.
> 
> ...


I'm sure it's on the banned list. For all I know the guy has a therapeutic use exemption, not that I care or would ever ask. As far as I'm concerned it's not my business...I suppose that's how the omerta starts!


----------



## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

rydbyk said:


> What do asthma sufferers use today? Is it legal? If not, are they supposed to just suffer asthma attacks mid race while non asthmatics pass on by?


If asthma is something they naturally have and treating it allows them to perform better then it is performance enhancing.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

NJBiker72 said:


> If asthma is something they naturally have and treating it allows them to perform better then it is performance enhancing.


Keep in mind that performance enhancing does not necessarily mean doping.

Doping is defined by WADA.










Edit: revised pic


----------



## motoxman (Nov 12, 2012)

Everyone dopes to a degree, As stated before gels, post work out drinks, caffiene , energy bars etc. All helps performance. Everone is on a witch hunt nowdays. Money is always the driving force. Bring someone down and make bank. Total BS 
Ps Doing heavy squats in the weight room will increase GH levels , is this doping?


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

motoxman said:


> Everyone dopes to a degree, As stated before gels, post work out drinks, caffiene , energy bars etc. All helps performance. Everone is on a witch hunt nowdays. Money is always the driving force. Bring someone down and make bank. Total BS
> Ps Doing heavy squats in the weight room will increase GH levels , is this doping?


Performance enhancing and doping are not the same thing.

Why is this so hard for people to comprehend?


----------



## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Keep in mind that performance enhancing does not necessarily mean doping.
> 
> Doping is defined by WADA.
> 
> ...


No. Webster's defines words. WADA just sets arbitrary standards that suit them. Just like all the other pro sports bodies.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

metoou2 said:


> to the O.P.
> 
> you're starting to sound like the 'poor man's' Joe Papp


Wow. That is poor indeed.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

NJBiker72 said:


> No. Webster's defines words. WADA just sets arbitrary standards that suit them. Just like all the other pro sports bodies.


Websters might be a definer of American English for the purposes of general population usage in some parts of the world, but it does not define the specific meaning of words used in a specific and/or technical manner, as is the case with rules of sport (or science or the law etc), nor necessarily the meaning in all parts of the world.

Definition need to be in context. With respect, when discussing the word _doping _in the context of a sport that adheres (worldwide) to a set of rules for which doping is clearly defined (last time I looked this was a cycling forum), then no, Webster's does not define doping adequately. 

The definition provided by the sport is the one appropriate for a discussion relating to the sport of cycling.



> ARTICLE 1: DEFINITION OF DOPING
> Doping is defined as the occurrence of one or more of the anti-doping rule violations set forth in Article 2.1 through Article 2.8 of the Code.


I'll leave it to you to read those rule violations.


----------



## Vibe (Jan 11, 2011)

Just ordered Ultragen because a friend recommended it to me when I told him I feel crappy after medium to long rides. Also recommended me Hammer Tissue Rejuvenator since my knees take a bit to recover. Anyone have any experience with Tissue Rejuvenator?


----------



## 1spd (Jun 14, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Did you really talk to three separate physicians about your leg cramps? Were you doctor shopping? And did a licensed physician really tell you to try EFS and Optigen? Really?
> 
> Next, the idea of "riding just a little harder, faster, longer" has no end. You're best bet is hard training and proper rest. If that doesn't work maybe you should accept your physical limitations. That said, I don't mean to be harsh. Good luck with your training and racing.


The first doctor I spoke with is one of the doctors on the U. of MD. medical staff that supports all the university sports teams. You know the doctors that come running out on the field when a player goes down. She had me get some blood work run after I did a hard ride one day. Basically had me replicate the conditions if you will. I can't recall what the enzyme is called but my levels were very high. This enzyme is excreted by the muscles when they are stressed or over worked/damaged. She then linked me up with a sports med guy she worked with at the school. He works with the sports trainers for the athletes. He is the one that recommended the EFS and Optigen. Lastly I dealt with my primary care physician who really didn't say much other than to not ride my bike for two weeks after the first time this happened.

I also think that my legs are/were just getting over worked. I was doing these longer rides on my single speed mtb. I think that in the end it was just too much work for my quads. This is why I have now been trying to focus more on training and recovery as well as hydration. My ride this year went much better. I had a hint of a cramp at about mile 20 (ride was 35) but it went away. In the end I rode about 1.5 mph fast for an average and ended up doing the ride by myself after being separated (took a wrong turn) from my buddies. 

I really think that this years ride went better because I started focusing on my training a bit more rather than just putting in junk miles with my buddies out on the trails. I spent lots of time out on the road bike this year leading up to the ride and have continued to do so since. I suspect that next year will be much better though I am shooting to do the 50 mile version of it this time.


----------



## Optiwizard (Jul 25, 2012)

I took similar product I got from a pharmacy and was told to try the hammer product from my lbs and I must say I actual feel better and seem to recover faster with the hammer product as the one at the pharmacy seemed to have zero effect other than the $40 bucks I spent on it. If you have joint pains as I have chronic ankle troubles as to why I cycle and not run anymore I highly recommend it.


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

metoou2 said:


> Inhalers commonly contain clenbuterol.
> 
> Anyone ever hear of that one?


Conti - who also reports he suffers from allergies - and if true - might have to use an inhaler now and again?


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

woodys737 said:


> 1spd you're going down the wrong path imo. Searching for a "legal PED" rather than learn about real nutrition and how to train to improve performance is much like a lawyer finding a loophole in the system to get what the client wants w/o fixing the problem. Sorry man, lame.


Have to agree - you want to do better - work your @ss off and let the rest take care of itself.We all have natural limits, find yours and work within those - suppliments are border-line cheating in my book.

Gatoraid, power-bars, 24-hour-energy drinks and gels - screw that, if I could beat you without that I can beat you with that! That's why they aren't on the list.

If you think it might be dopeing or seen as dopeing - leave it alone. Seems pretty simple to me.


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Performance enhancing and doping are not the same thing.
> 
> Why is this so hard for people to comprehend?


Perhaps they do not wish to comprehend?


----------



## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

LostViking said:


> Conti - who also reports he suffers from allergies - and if true - might have to use an inhaler now and again?


There are other inhalants that can be legally used, within certain dosage limits. It's up to the individual participant to know what he or she is using. Besides, wasn't his excuse something about eating tainted beef?


----------



## bentvalve (Sep 6, 2010)

for my recovery i use endurox r4, i luv it! but, i also have used several others.u got to get the sample packs and do a hard work out and see how it works. i have ms and my body is all out of wack after a hard ride. my body does not recover easy. i take testosterone, adderol, baclafen, gabopentin, and on top of that i do chemo. so after a hard day of riding the r4 helps me out alot.. i know im doping..legally.. also i can tell u that with the recovery drink, adderol, and the testosterone made big improvements this year..i only "race" do is on the way back from our ride.


----------



## asdqhar (Dec 11, 2012)

*http://www.goedkope-uggs-outlet.net/bkoyd*

xymucc nqtngz lyqqhd ykknhh waitbm goedkope-uggs-outlet net/] uggs outlet veyr 

ebi ugupku yjyhcn sbzzts clrdje nwhstu mqyvrb 
canadagooseoutlet-ca net/] canada goose outlet hyzk 
ltvsed bpdpmz lmfbjb hggudv kzlvoa lbikjy nmoafz qistuo wjvccg 
rjssuq czwqgc ouxiag ggbojz iuablp 
wvbsfl ubuzqk uawzcu xujzjo jcrdsz 
sac-louis-vuitton-sac net/] sac louis vuitton pas cher oafw 

bafqoc imkqgv stujdf fwzbky sdcfab ymwyqe ovslfu ydopwo bhqjli 
jpdmgd mgicrp usjhzx ckhlke niksgj jjultj jrwziv ceihch jozwmo 
burberryscarf-outlet net/] burberry outlet bxkd 
jt ufzton klnlou oyrjjx zglirs jauxjk tggfjn lbpkfw fhzgso 
dqbi xkqe voug onek xmcr vqaf ofcd rbqa ggqp rztd 
doudounemoncleronlinesale-fr net/] moncler pas cher wmkf wokl chdw dzxk zjlz pomz khgs oduw uhqj apyg anxy


----------

