# Sagan?



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Have you ever seen a classics rider recover this fast? I hate to be cliché just because he is doing well, but he was gutted at E3 by Cancellara and he has the legs to go again today finishing solo. Does that sound like amazing recovery to anyone else? Cancellara dropped at the feed zone because he was cooked. Sagan is riding 3 days of De Panne on Tuesday next. When endurance seems too strong...sometimes it is.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

He probably "warmed down" after E3, Fabs probably didn't.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

He must have used "Sky's" 20 minutes of threshold work on the trainer after the race for recovery :thumbsup:


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## rayej68 (Sep 18, 2011)

spookyload said:


> Have you ever seen a classics rider recover this fast? I hate to be cliché just because he is doing well, but he was gutted at E3 by Cancellara and he has the legs to go again today finishing solo. Does that sound like amazing recovery to anyone else? Cancellara dropped at the feed zone because he was cooked. Sagan is riding 3 days of De Panne on Tuesday next. When endurance seems too strong...sometimes it is.


People recover at different rates. Sagan is 23 and Cancellara is 32. That could play a big role. 

But honestly Fabian has done the same thing in the past. So has Sagan, Boonen, Gilbert, ect. So yes I've seen it before. Recently. Look at the top 10 finishers in all the recent classics and you'll see more than just Sagan riding well day in and day out. 

Getting good results 2 days in a row does not mean doping was involved.


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## Slartibartfast (Jul 22, 2007)

Wookiebiker said:


> He must have used "Sky's" 20 minutes of threshold work on the trainer after the race for recovery :thumbsup:


Or maybe Ultragen. That's what I use.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

FRS used to work for Lance and his team


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

spookyload said:


> Have you ever seen a classics rider recover this fast? I hate to be cliché just because he is doing well, but he was gutted at E3 by Cancellara and he has the legs to go again today finishing solo. Does that sound like amazing recovery to anyone else? Cancellara dropped at the feed zone because he was cooked. Sagan is riding 3 days of De Panne on Tuesday next. When endurance seems too strong...sometimes it is.



It's sad, but in this day and age it's not unreasonable to question whether a winning rider is doping.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ehm well that's a tough one. 
no it's not really. who won GW and E3 in 2012? 

by the way after these races you still want to stand by: 
"I think that card is played out now and he will have to use his team as everyone else does. Except for moser, his team doesn't have it." ?


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Sagan is almost as quick as Cav in a bunch sprint (quicker according to some), can keep up with Spartacus when he puts down huge watts, and in last year's tour dropped Sammy Sanchez on a Cat 1. 

He is remarkable - and I'm struggling to think of a clean remarkable cyclist... Actually a clean cyclist WOULD be remarkable


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

That's the problem. One has to presume every remarkable result - especially by old guys - to be doped.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Anyone who does a wheelie is on drugs.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I read the article about the race over at VeloNews. The comments to the article read like the recent doping scandals had never happened.


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

Aren't these guys being tested? Speculating on whether or not Sagan's doping is awfully interesting not to mention Great Fun, but the proof of the pudding will be in blood testing.

So, was Sagan tested before any stage in any race he's ridden in recently?


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

They tested Lance Armstrong, George Hincapie, and his orchestra.


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## rayej68 (Sep 18, 2011)

Samadhi said:


> Aren't these guys being tested? Speculating on whether or not Sagan's doping is awfully interesting not to mention Great Fun, but the proof of the pudding will be in blood testing.
> 
> So, was Sagan tested before any stage in any race he's ridden in recently?


Yes he was tested after each win and possibly before as well. 

The issue is every one of the guys who've recently confessed to doping for 10 plus years were also tested for 10 years. 

There are still drugs thank can't be tested for. There are still ways to beat the tests.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

David Loving said:


> I read the article about the race over at VeloNews. The comments to the article read like the recent doping scandals had never happened.


They should spend more time in the doping subforum echo chamber!


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

rayej68 said:


> There are still drugs thank can't be tested for. There are still ways to beat the tests.


Not only that ... but new drugs are being developed all the time that are undetectable by current testing standards.

Then add in the potential for genetic doping, of which there is no real way to test for right now and athletes can again use PED's with no chance of getting caught, much like the 90's with EPO.

It's unfortunate ... but all great and even good performances have to be questioned. If a rider is truly clean, good for them, they can sleep at night knowing they are clean and still performing well. They can't prove they are not clean other then by having a group of reporters spend 24 hours a day with them in every environment for years at a time ... so no privacy at all during any point of the day for years on end. Even then I'm sure there could be questions raised.

I don't feel bad for them though ... they did it to themselves by allowing it in the first place. You sleep in the bed you make!


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

They have the blood passport now. They don't even need to detect the drug itself, but merely a big enough aberration in your normal blood levels. I am certainly not going to say that any rider isn't doping, but if he's passing the current controls, which are personalized for each specific rider, he's doing a damn fine job of doping. If Sagan is doping, he's a more talented doper than he is a rider.


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

rayej68 said:


> Yes he was tested after each win and possibly before as well.
> 
> The issue is every one of the guys who've recently confessed to doping for 10 plus years were also tested for 10 years.
> 
> There are still drugs thank can't be tested for. There are still ways to beat the tests.


Then if there are rules that can't be enforced, then they aren't rules at all. They are a waste of time. If Sagan is taking PEDs that can't be detected, then he can hardly be said to be cheating. Nothing is proven.

It's a shame, if that's the case.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

The Human G-Nome said:


> They have the blood passport now. They don't even need to detect the drug itself, but merely a big enough aberration in your normal blood levels. I am certainly not going to say that any rider isn't doping, but if he's passing the current controls, which are personalized for each specific rider, he's doing a damn fine job of doping. If Sagan is doping, he's a more talented doper than he is a rider.


The problem with the Bio-Passport is that any decent doctor could monitor a riders levels to make sure no aberrations turn up. You simply just have to dope year round and make sure the numbers are not going to raise any "Major" red flags during the season.

It's easy to tell when a clean rider starts doping ... but hard to tell when one has been doping all along. Basically ... get a good doctor that knows what he/she is doing and a rider can pass the bio-passport without issue. 

People like to look at it as the "Game Changer" but the reality is it's a smoke screen to say "Look, we have this program that will catch dopers and have a clean sport now" ... However, the Bio-Passport has been in effect for a while and riders have been using PED's during it's time without raising red flags or getting caught. It's great in concept, but not in application since it's really not catching dopers (well, it does help catch the stupid or poor ones that can't afford a good doctor), just making them get better doctors.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

roddjbrown said:


> Sagan is almost as quick as Cav in a bunch sprint (quicker according to some), can keep up with Spartacus when he puts down huge watts, and in last year's tour dropped Sammy Sanchez on a Cat 1.
> 
> He is remarkable - and I'm struggling to think of a clean remarkable cyclist... Actually a clean cyclist WOULD be remarkable


can keep up with Fabian when he puts down watts, when he's sucking his wheel

I like Sagan but he has not shown anything like Fabian or Boonen's solo exploits in the classics


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> can keep up with Fabian when he puts down watts, when he's sucking his wheel
> 
> I like Sagan but he has not shown anything like Fabian or Boonen's solo exploits in the classics



Agree.


The big boys of the peleton.


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## regnaD kciN (Mar 2, 2013)

roddjbrown said:


> Actually a clean cyclist WOULD be remarkable


I can assure you I'm clean -- but anyone who would consider me "remarkable"...well, they'd have to be on drugs!


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Sagan again - recovered from the weekend to win the first of the Three Days of the Panne.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

roddjbrown said:


> Sagan again - recovered from the weekend to win the first of the Three Days of the Panne.


Well that proves it. 
What is it again?


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Nope.
He's that good.
Really.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Another excellent thread with lots of deep insights into professional cycling.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

den bakker said:


> Well that proves it.
> What is it again?


Did I say it proved anything?


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

foto said:


> Another excellent thread with lots of deep insights into professional cycling.




You got that right, Eddy  :lol: !


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

roddjbrown said:


> Did I say it proved anything?


no you did not say anything in fact relevant for the current forum


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> Not only that ... but new drugs are being developed all the time that are undetectable by current testing standards.
> 
> Then add in the potential for genetic doping, of which there is no real way to test for right now and athletes can again use PED's with no chance of getting caught, much like the 90's with EPO.
> 
> ...


The reason the biopassport hasn't caught anyone is because everyone stopped doping in 2007. 

I typed this with a straight face. Honestly.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

den bakker said:


> no you did not say anything in fact relevant for the current forum


Huh, I mentioned Sagan winning... In a thread about Sagan...


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## SMK-SLC (May 3, 2012)

Wookiebiker said:


> Not only that ...
> 
> Then add in the potential for genetic doping....


Yes, word is they're pumping Sagan with Dolly Parton's DNA. That way he's got the lung capacity of a real diva. Plan is no one will suspect anything until he starts to grow breastesses. 




Wookiebiker said:


> You sleep in the bed you make!


So are you saying Team Cannondale cannot afford to put up their athletes in hotels with maid service? Oh because they're spending so much on Dolly DNA!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

SMK-SLC said:


> Yes, word is they're pumping Sagan with Dolly Parton's DNA. That way he's got the lung capacity of a real diva. Plan is no one will suspect anything until he starts to grow breastesses.


That might make Sagan the next Liz Hatch?


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

SMK-SLC said:


> Yes, word is they're pumping Sagan with Dolly Parton's DNA. That way he's got the lung capacity of a real diva. Plan is no one will suspect anything until he starts to grow breastesses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it legal to slip this DNA to your girlfriend?


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

It is kind of heartening to see some healthy skepticism re: young Sagan. Almost makes up for the lack of suspicion re: Froome and Porte's comedy rides at the recent Criterium International.


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## rayej68 (Sep 18, 2011)

Sagan's quote after the race win "I did more good training today, rather than a true race"


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

No matter what age and what style of racing, Sagan has always kicked butt.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

roddjbrown said:


> Is it legal to slip this DNA to your girlfriend?


I'll slip some DNA to her if you want.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

The Tedinator said:


> It is kind of heartening to see some healthy skepticism re: young Sagan. Almost makes up for the lack of suspicion re: Froome and Porte's comedy rides at the recent Criterium International.


not really that healthy imo.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> I'll slip some DNA to her if you want.


Wouldn't suit you - parcours is too flat


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

spade2you said:


> The reason the biopassport hasn't caught anyone is because everyone stopped doping in 2007.
> 
> I typed this with a straight face. Honestly.


They all came together, held hands, and unanimously quit doping 8 years ago, to this very day, just outside the statute of limitations for getting caught... tomorrow, this date will increment by one.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

roddjbrown said:


> Sagan is almost as quick as Cav in a bunch sprint (quicker according to some), can keep up with Spartacus when he puts down huge watts, and in last year's tour dropped Sammy Sanchez on a Cat 1.
> 
> He is remarkable - and I'm struggling to think of a clean remarkable cyclist... Actually a clean cyclist WOULD be remarkable


This makes no sense. Cav is pretty much proven, as well as Cancellara to be clean. They ranked pretty much the lowest on the Passport leaked data from 2010 TDF.

Hence, if they are clean, then it must be possible for another human being to be clean, and be as fast as them yes? He just happens to be a good medium climber/sprinter combo.

He can't climb big mountains like Froome/Contadar/Purito and the rest of the pure climbers, he is too fat.

Plus, the kid is just a phenom and has been getting better the past 2-3yrs. His younger brother is supposed to be as talented as well. There might be yet another Sagan in the news the next few years.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

rayej68 said:


> Sagan's quote after the race win "I did more good training today, rather than a true race"


Yeah, then decided to drop out of the rest of the race and rest for the next big classic...haha...

What we need now is power data to be released. Like his late acceleration for the solo victory a few days back...would be interesting.

You could tell when he crossed the line, he was cooked, breathing real deep, could barely pop a wheelie...rofl.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

_This makes no sense. Cav is pretty much proven, as well as Cancellara to be clean._

No one can know this for a certainty.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Wookiebiker said:


> Not only that ... but new drugs are being developed all the time that are undetectable by current testing standards.
> 
> Then add in the potential for genetic doping, of which there is no real way to test for right now and athletes can again use PED's with no chance of getting caught, much like the 90's with EPO.


This is giving the sport of cycling way more credit than it deserves. Drugs are developed by drug companies, not sports teams. They use what they can get their hands on and there is very little money in cycling compared to other sports after all, individual football/basketball/baseball players earn more than entire team budgets in cycling. That one of the most notorious drug "kingpins" was a gynecologist should illustrate that enough.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Don't you ever

EVER

doubt my boy Petey Sagan. Probably not TdF ready, but he is the new face of cycling. The next Chosen One.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Ventruck said:


> Don't you ever
> 
> EVER
> 
> doubt my boy Petey Sagan. Probably not TdF ready, but he is the new face of cycling. The next Chosen One.


Yup. And everyone better pray that he never gets popped, because it'll be just one more nail in the sport's coffin. :wink:


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

mpre53 said:


> Yup. And everyone better pray that he never gets popped, because it'll be just one more nail in the sport's coffin. :wink:


I bet that would make a lot of people here really happy.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

foto said:


> I bet that would make a lot of people here really happy.


It would blow me away! I mean, doping stopped in 2006. Hincapie, Danielson, Zabriskie, and CVV have assured us of this.


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## Eyorerox (Feb 19, 2008)

This is an interesting read
inrng : peter sagan, the early years


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Ventruck said:


> Don't you ever
> 
> EVER
> 
> doubt my boy Petey Sagan. Probably not TdF ready, but he is the new face of cycling. The next Chosen One.


So are you condemning him now as a future superstar doper to be eventually caught?



My perspective:

Top five riders in any given Tour and Classics: Dopers. Period.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

The Tedinator said:


> It would blow me away! I mean, doping stopped in 2006. Hincapie, Danielson, Zabriskie, and CVV have assured us of this.


Of course it did. Damn that tainted beef, and the scum that sabotaged Schleck's urine sample. :lol:


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

cda 455 said:


> So are you condemning him now as a future superstar doper to be eventually caught?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the finger would be pointed at 6-10 if 1-5 didn't show up!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> And the finger would be pointed at 6-10 if 1-5 didn't show up!


In the GT CG, 6-10 seemed just as bad most years.


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## Bruce372 (Mar 8, 2009)

View attachment 278201


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

I think Sagan, at this point is just a really talented kid. Since he is young he will have better recovery than those passing their 30's coming in on 40...BUT as we saw today he can over reach due to his experience.

I would be concerned if I suddenly saw him chasing Froome in the Mountains, Fabian or Wiggins in the TT etc. 

I think the main thing that has him looking so damn well is that he is a rider we don't see let off the leash anymore, a damn good rouleur. Usually these guys in the more specialized and focused realm of modern cycling end up as domestiques to GC guys or Sprinters because they can be a huge help getting the "Star" to the line. C-Dale however is letting him be the "Star" which is simply not all that common anymore. If we were watching this play out in the 1970's before the doping hey day we would not be batting an eye because these guys were allowed to do this more routinely than today.


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