# Chain Durability: 8-speed vs 9-speed vs 10-speed



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Talked to a guy at my local LBS, and got a curious comment from him regarding chain durability. He said he'd expect, on average ('cuz ppl & drivetrains vary widely, obviously) to get about 2000 miles out of a 10-spd chain, and maybe 3000 miles out of an 8-spd, with 9-spd somewhere in the middle.

I thought to myself, "Wha?". Because

1) Back when I rode 7-spd, and was ignorant of such things as the need to replace your chain regularly, I rode the same chain for several YEARS, did nothing to it other than brush off the grit and dab some Triflow on it from time to time, and it worked great forever and ever. Yay. 

2) 8-spd chains are pretty much the same as 7-spd, AFAIK.

Guess what I'm trying to say is, it doesn't seem to be a '50% more durability kind of thing' for 8-spd vs 10-spd. But what's the real deal, in ppl's experience? And would ya say 9-spd chain durability is closer to 8-spd, or closer to 10-spd?


...


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## hayduke1972 (Oct 3, 2007)

I'm not someone who breaks chains (despite my 215lbs) but I have found over the years that my 9 speed chains do not last as long as my 8 speed chains (using a Park chain stretch gauge). I really am not someone who is in to recording my mileage so I don't have exact figures but I know I replace chains more often with 9 speed. I don't ride 10 speed yet (and hope I won't for a while at least) and 11 speed drivetrains sound even more unnecessary (Campagnolo...your Italian...you don't need to prove to the bicycle world that you have a bigger Johnson than the Japanese...its already assumed!).


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

In my narrow, completely limited experience that lacks any authority. Shimano 10sp chains are as soft as butter. Campy 10 are 2-3 times more durable, or more. SRAM 8 spd chains last a very, very long time on a fixed gear bike. All of this is with frequent homebrew lubing.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

No question in my experience that chain life is

8sp>9sp>>>10sp

-assuming similar chain care and riding conditions.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

I've been getting between 5000 and 6000 miles out of my Dura-Ace 9-speed and Campy 10-speed (C-10) chains. I now have about 1200 miles on a Campy UN 5.9 with no apparent elongation. I weigh about 165 lbs. and clean my chains often, on the bike.

Al


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*search...*

Do a search under chain life. I've repeated a lengthy post serveral times, explaining how to measure chain wear.

Of course, as chains become narrower and the surface area carrying the load becomes smaller, chains will not last as long, but it's not as bad as some people contend. Shimano chains wear faster than any brand I've tested, or about 1/3 less life than a Campy chain. Different brands also wear differently, so you have to measure both elongation and roller wear separately if you really want to evaluate a chain's condition.


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## shinsplints (Oct 24, 2007)

I'm trying to figure out what happened with my chain: I've only got about 2000km (~1200 miles) on a SRAM PC 971 chain and I just measured the length it's already stretched by 1/8 of an inch! I've never raced and I'm certainly not hard on pedalling. I clean and re-lube about once a month or if there's a lot of grit build-up and always after getting caught in the rain, so I'm trying to figure out why I got such a short chain life out of this chain. Should I upgrade to a PC 991 chain?


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

C-40 said:


> Of course, as chains become narrower and the surface area carrying the load becomes smaller, chains will not last as long, but it's not as bad as some people contend. Shimano chains wear faster than any brand I've tested, or about 1/3 less life than a Campy chain. Different brands also wear differently, so you have to measure both elongation and roller wear separately if you really want to evaluate a chain's condition.


What do you think of SRAM chains?

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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*



SystemShock said:


> What do you think of SRAM chains?
> 
> ...


I think I've read a lot of reports of failures and poor life. There are better options out there, since most stores ask a lot for their chains. I haven't had the time to test one, though.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*1/8 inch...*



shinsplints said:


> I'm trying to figure out what happened with my chain: I've only got about 2000km (~1200 miles) on a SRAM PC 971 chain and I just measured the length it's already stretched by 1/8 of an inch! I've never raced and I'm certainly not hard on pedalling. I clean and re-lube about once a month or if there's a lot of grit build-up and always after getting caught in the rain, so I'm trying to figure out why I got such a short chain life out of this chain. Should I upgrade to a PC 991 chain?


1/8 inch over how much length? Over a foot, that would be nearly a full pin diameter and twice what's commonly recommened. Over the full length, it's still a lot. The .5% maximum is about 1/4 inch over the full length. Are you sure you're measuring correctly?

To measure over 12 inches, get a presicion 12" scale. Lay the scale on the edge of a pin and check the pin at the opposite end. When new that pin will be completely covered by the scale. With 1/8" of elongation, that pin would be almost completely exposed. After twice that mileage with a Campy chain, you I can rarely detect any elongation over 12". I have to use my home made full-length measuring setup to detect 1/32" over the full length.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

C-40 said:


> I think I've read a lot of reports of failures and poor life. There are better options out there, since most stores ask a lot for their chains. I haven't had the time to test one, though.


Hmm, that sucks.  

How about the other players in the field, like Connex/Wipperman? Or anyone who might be good, i.e. up there with the Campy chains.

...


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

After 3600 miles, my DA 10 speed chain is .2% longer. Using my Park CC-2 tool the max elongation over the 5" the tool measures is 1mm. My chain shows .25mm, or the same as a new chain. Since the Park tool adds bushing wear in with the pin wear, there seems to be no wear at all.
At this rate, I'll get over 10,000 miles before the chain gets close to .8mm (I don't wait to hit 1mm) My 10 speed chain seems to wear a little faster than my 9 speed chains (I would get over 12,000 miles on those)


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## Pieter (Oct 17, 2005)

After 2200km my Ultegra CN-6600 10 speed chain has elongated about 2mm (0.2%). Of this wear, a third occurred during the first 200km. ' Running in' haha.

I am saving this chain for later.. in the mean time running another with is showing comparable wear.

This is about the elongation I got with each of six CN-HG73 9 speed chains after 4500-5000km.

The 10 speed (Ultegra) chain is of different construction compared to the 9 speed Shimanos. Probably made in a different factory. The 10 speed has actually very neat pin bushings formed into the roller cage plates. But maybe the pins are softer. Also the original grease is different.

For all that, the dimensions differ very little between 9 and 10 speed. The rollers are 2mm wide. The cages plates are same thickness. The 10 speed chain just has thinner side plates and shorter pins. So, all else being equal, a 10 speed 'should' be equally durable as a 9.

The LBS of course contends a 10 speed 'should' and 'will' wear more quickly.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*can't be...*

I'm sorry, but that is just NOT possible. The rollers start at .210 inch apart when new and after 3600 miles, I would expect them to measure at least .230 inch and perhaps as much as .240 inch. The roller wear alone would .4-.6%, without the actual elongation. I suggest a more accurate method of measurement, like a full length measurement with a tape measure for elongation and a caliper or plug gage check of the distance between rollers.

Maybe if you ride on totally flat terrain and average less than 100 watts of power output, this might be remotely possible.

The DA 10 chain that I tested was the worst wearing chain I'd ever used. I'm only a 135 lb rider and don't put out a lot of power, but I couldn't even get a much slower wearing Campy 10 chain to last that long. After 6,000 miles a Campy chain may only show .15% elongation, but the distance between the rollers will have increased from .200 to .235-.240 and it is shot. The side clearance will also have increased to nearly twice the original amount. If you leave a single chain in use that long, it will probably wear out some of the cogs and a new chain will skip on those cogs.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

Have not tried 10sp SRAM chains yet, but I've had better life with 8 & 9s SRAM chains on my MTB's than I have Shimano. Only broken chain was due to trail hazard (rocks). Currently trying a 10s Wippermann (w/ProLink lube) on my main roadie, but too soon to comment of durability (only 800mi so far). Hope its better than what I've had with Ultegra 10sp chains.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

On my 9 speed bike, I'm on my third chain and have yet to replace any cassettes (no skipping) Like I said above, I get over 12,000 miles from a 9 speed chain. 
Maybe it's my chain lube.
Two of my friends have campy systems, and my chains always last longer then there's do. (I have a feeling that they replace them before they need to)
I had even better chain life when I had an 8 speed system.
Go figure.

I've checked my 10 speed chain three times, and each time it comes out the same, .25mm elongation. ......Maybe the chain fairies are sneeking into my house at night and changing my chain. 

Maybe the secret is to keep the chain lubed and to prevent abraisives from entering the wear areas.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*poor measuring??*

If all you've ever used to check you chains is Park chain checker, it's not very good information. It's quite common for a Shimano or KMC chain to show .25% elongation when NEW. That's because the distance between the roller starts at about .210, while a Campy chain only measures .200 inch.

I'm real confident that Shimano chains elongate about 4 times faster than a Campy chain and the rollers don't wear any better than Campy rollers either. After the same mileage a Campy chain will have a little less roller wear and a whole lot less elongation. You can't rely on measures of elongation to judge when to change a Campy chain. I measure the roller wear and change when the distance increases by .035-.040 inch.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

If Park had made a defective tool, my 9 speed cassettes would skip like crazy. It seems that either 1) I'm getting "special" long lasting DA chains, 2) My methods of lubrication works better than most people, or 3) Your methods of testing Shimano chains is lacking.
When you consider that I've put 25,000 miles on my main training cassette (9 speed), and I put on a new chain this year (after wearing out two others), without skip, just maybe I'll get similar results with my 10 speed bike. Just in case you're wondering, when I put on my race wheels with low milage cassettes, I don't get skipping. Ditto for 9 speed race wheels.


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

I'm with Grumpy. I replaced my first DA 10 speed chain just cause I thought I should after around 5000 miles. It still measured ok on the Park gauge. I replaced it with a new chain and no skipping with the old cassette. I used prolink or homebrew prolink exclusively and lubed often.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Most people don't know it but Industrial chains are never lubed with a thin lube. They would wear out too quick. Grease would make the ideal lube, but it is too thick to penetrate the side plates, bushings, and rollers. (yes, industrial chains have rollers)

PS The only time thin oil is used as a lube, a drip system is used to keep the chain wet.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Ideally every link should have a grease nipple that lets you grease from the inside out. I figure I can build a chain like this... weighing about 4 pounds and only allowing for shifting in one direction. To shift in the other direction, you simply flip the chain!


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

After every ride, the chain should be removed and cleaned. After cleaning, the chain should be dipped in hot grease, and left until the chain reaches the temperature of the grease. The chain should then be removed and allowed to cool. After cooling, all excess exterior grease should be removed except for a very light coating..........repeat.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> After every ride, the chain should be removed and cleaned. After cleaning, the chain should be dipped in hot grease, and left until the chain reaches the temperature of the grease. The chain should then be removed and allowed to cool. After cooling, all excess exterior grease should be removed except for a very light coating..........repeat.



it's never not a good time to post this: 

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html


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## shinsplints (Oct 24, 2007)

C-40 said:


> 1/8 inch over how much length? Over a foot, that would be nearly a full pin diameter and twice what's commonly recommened. Over the full length, it's still a lot. The .5% maximum is about 1/4 inch over the full length. Are you sure you're measuring correctly?
> 
> To measure over 12 inches, get a presicion 12" scale. Lay the scale on the edge of a pin and check the pin at the opposite end. When new that pin will be completely covered by the scale. With 1/8" of elongation, that pin would be alsmost completely exposed. After twice that mileage with a Campy chain, you I can rarely detect any elongation over 12". I have to use my home made full-length measuring setup to detect 1/32" over the full length.


Hmm... I measured according to what I read on Sheldon Brown's website: using a 12 inch measure. I used a tape measure. My interpretation of Sheldon Brown's advice was that I should measure 12 inches from the center of the pin. When I did that, the pin at the end of the 12 inch measure was 1/8 inch away.

The reason why I thought the chain might need to be replaced is that I've noticed a light grinding feel & clicking noise when I'm in any gear above 19 (on a 12-25 9sp cassette). This started just after the last time I cleaned the chain by taking it off and putting it in a bio-degreaser (organic solvent, mild alkalis) after getting caught in heavy rain. I didn't put it in long (maybe swishing it around for 30 seconds) and wiped it dry with a clean rag. I then put on White Lightning on every link. Maybe it's the White Lightning?

Sorry to hijack the thread.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*



SystemShock said:


> Hmm, that sucks.
> 
> How about the other players in the field, like Connex/Wipperman? Or anyone who might be good, i.e. up there with the Campy chains.
> 
> ...


I don't think any brand will last as long as Campy, but if you're looking for the most bang for the buck, the KMC DX10SC, as sold by Nashbar and Performance is a good chain that will last longer the Shimano and only cost $20-24, if you catch one of their sales.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*nope...*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> If Park had made a defective tool, my 9 speed cassettes would skip like crazy. It seems that either 1) I'm getting "special" long lasting DA chains, 2) My methods of lubrication works better than most people, or 3) Your methods of testing Shimano chains is lacking.
> When you consider that I've put 25,000 miles on my main training cassette (9 speed), and I put on a new chain this year (after wearing out two others), without skip, just maybe I'll get similar results with my 10 speed bike. Just in case you're wondering, when I put on my race wheels with low milage cassettes, I don't get skipping. Ditto for 9 speed race wheels.


Park's chain checker is a poor way to measure chain wear unless you check the chain when new, note the amount of reported wear, consider that the zero point and add from there. Even then, it always over-reports chain wear, since it gives a mixed reading of roller wear and elongation, rather than just elongation.

All I can tell you is that the DA 10 chain I tested has twice the elongation after 2500 miles as a Campy chain with 6,000. That's measured with a precision device over the whole length.

You should try laying one of you old chains over a tape measure and see how much the chain really elongates and take some caliper readings on the rollers. Without info like that, you just don't have anything of value.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> After every ride, the chain should be removed and cleaned. After cleaning, the chain should be dipped in hot grease, and left until the chain reaches the temperature of the grease. The chain should then be removed and allowed to cool. After cooling, all excess exterior grease should be removed except for a very light coating..........repeat.


Oh yeah... something like this, right? :lol:














...


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

That's the ticket.


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## Pieter (Oct 17, 2005)

What are the implications of roller wear? I suppose the chain rides lower on the cog teeth, promoting wear in some fashion or the other.

Maybe the Park tool is not too bad - it gives some kind of 'overall' figure.

I measure the total chain length to gauge elongation, in addition, I made a gauge to check roller wear. It is simply a 80mm piece of 2mm brass plate, machined to be 5.5mm wide one end tapering to 6mm wide the other. I slip it in between rollers : the more the wear, the deeper it goes. But I don't really know how to interpret what I see into what is acceptable or not. 

At the stage where a Park tool condemned a 10 speed Ultegra (2200km) it was elongated 0.2% and the gauge slipped in 40-50mm.

And - interesting to see how new chains differ. The gauge slips 5mm into a 10 speed Ultegra, only just into a 9 speed 105 and not at all into a Wippermann 10-08.


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## gatorling (Jun 25, 2008)

Pieter said:


> What are the implications of roller wear? I suppose the chain rides lower on the cog teeth, promoting wear in some fashion or the other.
> 
> Maybe the Park tool is not too bad - it gives some kind of 'overall' figure.
> 
> ...


I think roller wear is important because as the diameter of the roller's deviate from the norm the alignment of the chain with the cog/chain-ring teeth is messed up. In the end you'll notice chain slippage and trouble shifting.

That's my guess anyways, and my guess of why higher speed chains are less durable than lower speed ones is due to less material being used. I'm figuring the plates have to be thinner since the cog spacing is much tighter (and your chain getting caught between or rubbing cogs would be a bad thing). 
Not sure if the tooth spacing changes, if so then you'd need less chain-wear before you started having issues.

Maybe Grumpy's DA-10 chain has better wear characteristics because the side plates are smaller. With proper cleaning it might be easier to flush out the grit that gets trapped between the plate and rollers?


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