# What is your current 20min pwr avg?



## rydbyk

I ran some quick searches and didn't find anything this specific. Sorry if this has been posted/asked already.

There was a thread over on mtbr about this, but this seems like an even more appropriate place to post.

This would be cool to see. Maybe follow this set up here: Post current #s

Weight: 154lbs
Avg 20 min pwr: 280w
w/kg: (ftp of 265w / 69kg) = 3.8 or (4.0 not using ftp)
Category: Cat1 mtb
Typical last season results: Cat1 mtb...mid pack S. Calif.
Season Goal: Get power to 4+w/kg and lose 3 lbs before season begins in March


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## Sonomasnap

Weight 165lbs/75kg
20 min pwr 300
w/kg 4.0


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## rydbyk

Sonomasnap said:


> Weight 165lbs/75kg
> 20 min pwr 300
> w/kg 4.0


Maybe I am wrong, but I assume you need to subtract 5% from your 300w. 
(300 x .95 = 285w)

Now take your ftp of 285w and divide by your weight of 75kg.

This leaves you at 285/75 = 3.8w/kg

.02


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## Wookiebiker

Current or In-season power? There usually is a difference since we are not doing a lot of interval work in the winter. My numbers are based on using a Powertap for power measuring purposes.

*Right now *(Power is an approximate guess):

Weight: 199 pounds
Avg 20 min pwr: 360w
w/kg: 3.98 w/kg
Category: Cat 3/Masters 1/2/3 road

*During the season*:

Weight: 190 pounds
Avg 20 min power: 390 watts
W/KG: 4.51 w/kg
Catagory: No desire to move up from CAT 3 since I rarely race outside of the Masters catagory (other than the TTT state championships)

Season goals this year: Drop to 180 - 185 pounds, keep 20 minute power in the 390 range (FTP in the 360 watt range) and to run a sub 53 minute 40k ITT. If all goes well, I'll give the Masters Nationals ITT championships a go since they are in Bend again.

During the uphill ITT championships this past season I set a 30 minute power record (when adjusted for elevation) of 387 watts for 30:04.


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## kbiker3111

350 watts
179 lbs
You can do the math
3
Win more races.


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## Wookiebiker

rydbyk said:


> Maybe I am wrong, but I assume you need to subtract 5% from your 300w.
> (300 x .95 = 285w)
> 
> Now take your ftp of 285w and divide by your weight of 75kg.
> 
> This leaves you at 285/75 = 3.8w/kg
> 
> .02


Since you asked for 20 minute power and w/kg ... why are you trying to break his down into FTP w/kg? 

For the 20 minute number you asked for ... his is correct


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## rydbyk

Wookiebiker said:


> Since you asked for 20 minute power and w/kg ... why are you trying to break his down into FTP w/kg?
> 
> For the 20 minute number you asked for ... his is correct


I did preface it with "Maybe I am wrong..."

Aren't we supposed to break it down using ftp? Not sure. 

When we read that so and so pro has a 5.6w/kg, I was under the impression that it was based on ftp.

Thoughts?


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## mjengstrom

Weight: 158lbs
Avg 20 min pwr: (havent tested either in a few months)
280w outdoors = 3.9 w/kg
250w indoors = 3.5 w/kg
Category: Cat 5, M45-49 for Triathlons
Typical last season results: Top 10 finishes at local crits (B Group), a few podiums and top 5 for AG in local triathlons. 
Season Goal: Still WIP.... Improve sprinting and 60min power. Finish Tour of the Battenkill, ideally in top 20 for my group (first road race), Lose 5 lbs by April.


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## simonaway427

163lbs
20min pwr - 284
FTP - 268

Multiple podiums in B Cat with overall season points win (road)
4th in the points in A Cat cyclocross

Goals for next year - a few podiums in A cat (road and cx) and buy an MTB so I can race.


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## The Human G-Nome

I know that this doesn't aid the thread, but sometimes I feel like the only racer left out there who isn't training with power.


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## rydbyk

The Human G-Nome said:


> I know that this doesn't aid the thread, but sometimes I feel like the only racer left out there who isn't training with power.


It certainly is not necessary to train with power to get results.

Now...back to the numbers everyone...


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## The Human G-Nome

rydbyk said:


> It certainly is not necessary to train with power to get results.
> 
> Now...back to the numbers everyone...


I just want to be riding like the cool kids. Is that so wrong? Stupid food and shelter... holding me back!


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## kbiker3111

rydbyk said:


> I did preface it with "Maybe I am wrong..."
> 
> Aren't we supposed to break it down using ftp? Not sure.
> 
> When we read that so and so pro has a 5.6w/kg, I was under the impression that it was based on ftp.
> 
> Thoughts?


You usually are supposed to break it down by FTP, but you said 20 minutes so we're doing 20 minutes. 

FTP is based on things other than your 20 minute power, like AWC, so the .95 thing is only useful as a starting point. FWIW, my FTP is ~92% of my 20 minute power.


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## Wookiebiker

rydbyk said:


> I did preface it with "Maybe I am wrong..."
> 
> Aren't we supposed to break it down using ftp? Not sure.
> 
> When we read that so and so pro has a 5.6w/kg, I was under the impression that it was based on ftp.
> 
> Thoughts?


You can break w/kg down by any number ... 5 second, 10 second, 1 minute, 5 minute (generally used for VO2 Max), 20 minute and 1 hour (or beyond). So it depends on what information you want to know.

When talking about FTP it's your 1 hour power, though since it's really hard to do an hour all out, most people do a 20 minute effort and take .95 of that as their FTP and work from there.

However, when it comes to sprints 5 - 10 second power as well as 1 minute power are more important to know.

I don't know what my actual FTP is, but I would guess it's pretty close to 360 watts, but may be a little less. Based on my HR datat from ITT's (I don't have power on my TT bike) I'm really strong in efforts with lengths in the 35-45 minute range, but then my HR takes a dip pretty quickly ... and I can sustain that amount for a while beyond that.

I do know that in a road race I did a couple years ago I held 370 watts for the first 20 minutes (about 15 minutes after the start), 323 after the first hour and 309 watts for 2 hours. This was in a 2 man break away.

Basically if you want to talk about TT's it's about power/drag ... if you want to talk about climbs it's power/weight for the length of the climb ... if you want to talk about spriting it's about "max" (or 5 second) power/weight/drag. So the variable changes based on what you want to know.


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## kbiker3111

Wookiebiker said:


> I do know that in a road race I did a couple years ago I held 370 watts for the first 20 minutes (about 15 minutes after the start), 323 after the first hour and 309 watts for 2 hours. This was in a 2 man break away.


Normalized?


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## Wookiebiker

kbiker3111 said:


> Normalized?


Nope ... actual power ... including periods of non pedaling/coasting. I'd give you the NP numbers if I could, but my dog destroyed the computer that had my Training Peaks software on it :mad2:

I never use normalized power for any training purposes ... you either put the power to the ground our you don't


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## Etod451369

148lbs
20 min power 265
4.0 w/kg

Not currently racing, love to lead the pack and turn up the pace!

On a side note the Brad Wiggins documentary has him at 440w for 30 mins and he is a skinny guy!!!!


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## spade2you

I haven't done 20min power in quite a while. I did 30min a few months ago at 210w at 119lbs (3.88w/kg). Cat 4 climber...stuck in the midwest.


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## kbiker3111

Wookiebiker said:


> Nope ... actual power ... including periods of non pedaling/coasting. I'd give you the NP numbers if I could, but my dog destroyed the computer that had my Training Peaks software on it :mad2:
> 
> I never use normalized power for any training purposes ... you either put the power to the ground our you don't


Er, couldn't you extend that to 'you either go fast or you don't'? Power is pretty much a construct for training. I'll be the first to point out the inconsistencies of NP, but if you're going to use a construct for training you might as well use one that reflects the physiology of whats going on.


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## scottzj

Weight: 189lbs
Avg 20 min pwr: 332w FTP
We just did the max 5 min and 20 min the other day.

Category: Cat4 road/cx
Never raced in my life until this past year and cat'd up mid season....focusing on 3 mid season 2013...
Indoor training class with a pro coach and core coach is going to help for sure!


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## Poncharelli

My FTP P/W varied from 3.0 to ~4.0 this season. Broke my wrist in last November and finally got on the trainer at end the December. Cranking 130W at tempo HR at 170 pounds (ouch). 

Tested FTP=270 in March at 165. Was probably FTP=280 in July at 159ish. Nearly won Nationals in Cat 2 MTB, 45-49. All these power numbers are ~5000 feet elevation BTW. 

Seems like I"m in the same power neighborhood as everyone else. I'm Cat 3, racing Masters 1/2/3 exclusively though, just like Wookie. 

Good FTP gets you in the neighborhood, then it's all the other little things that decides what house you live in. To me, 1 min power is most important, especially when it's "throw down" time in the 4's. 

In Masters 1/2/3, it always throw-down time though.


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## mjengstrom

Poncharelli said:


> Good FTP gets you in the neighborhood, then it's all the other little things that decides what house you live in. To me, 1 min power is most important, especially when it's "throw down" time in the 4's.
> 
> In Masters 1/2/3, it always throw-down time though.


What kind of 1 min power do you think you need for cat 4 or masters 1/2/3? 

I can usually cover breaks but find it hard to keep covering and then have anything left for sprint. My best bet is to break earlier, but find I need a big FTP to hold it long enough. Hoping to make big improvement in FTP this winter so I can stay free. I don't race masters though, but would like to.


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## Rhymenocerus

150lbs/68kg

270watts/68kg

3.97, hopefully im on the conservative side. Non-racer, do a few TTs each year but thats it.


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## Poncharelli

mjengstrom said:


> What kind of 1 min power do you think you need for cat 4 or masters 1/2/3?
> 
> I can usually cover breaks but find it hard to keep covering and then have anything left for sprint. My best bet is to break earlier, but find I need a big FTP to hold it long enough. Hoping to make big improvement in FTP this winter so I can stay free. I don't race masters though, but would like to.


My 1min best is 525W, which I got this season. But it seems more important in the 4's since there is a lot more sitting in and just need to have that good power for the final finish. Prior to really working AC intervals (1-2min), I would always get gassed before the sprint really started. 

In the Master's 1/2/3, there's so many attacks, that after a while it's more about high normalized power (especially in crits), which is somewhat a function of FTP and how quickly one can recover from hard efforts. The general onslaught just kills me, and I'll eventually come off at about 25 minutes in some crits. Once I survived and got 7th at the finish; that was my best Masters A finish.


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## Wookiebiker

Poncharelli said:


> In the Master's 1/2/3, there's so many attacks, that after a while it's more about high normalized power (especially in crits), which is somewhat a function of FTP and how quickly one can recover from hard efforts.


This is very true of most masters races ... attack after attack until a break gets away.

I have yet to be in a Masters 1/2/3 race where a break didn't form and get away. Most of the time the break that gets away is the one that sticks, though I've been in a few where a 2nd break catches the first.

It becomes important to know who is in the peloton in Masters races because you have to know which attacks to jump in and which to ignore.

My 1 minute power max is 654 watts ... which is sometimes good enough at the end of races and sometimes I'm too worn out to hang on for the sprint ... however a sprint in the mid 1300 watt range is usually good enough at the end of a Masters 1/2/3 race to do well because of the general speed of the race, the number of attacks and the fact it usually comes down to a 3-6 man sprint.


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## akka

Hello everybody! My name is Alex,I am from Romania,65kg, 177cm,32years old. 
I dont have a facility to do a real LT test on a calibrated indoor bike, but I can cover 40km (hilly and windy) in 59-60min with a normal bike (no TT setup at all). I rode 140km(70km go and 70km back) flat but windy with an AVG of 37kmh, again no TT setup. That's numbers from the 'real' world
On my TACX trainer, if the power vs speed graphic is right, I can hold around 330-340W for 20'(5.1W/kg) and around 280W for 2 hours(4.3W/kg).
On 11th november I rode a 16km ITT, very bad wind that day and few little climbs and I won the category and also the overall standing. Again, no TT bike cause it is not so cheap.. )
Good day guys!


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## JackDaniels

Going back through my race data from last summer, it looks like the highest 20min power was 405 watts. This was in a crit when I was in a break for most of the race.



Edit. I've since discovered my quarq was reading high


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## Sumguy1

JackDaniels said:


> Going back through my race data from last summer, it looks like the highest 20min power was 405 watts. This was in a crit when I was in a break for most of the race.


Congratulations, you win.


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## JackDaniels

Sumguy1 said:


> Congratulations, you win.


I didn't win, I got last out of the break


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## rydbyk

JackDaniels said:


> Going back through my race data from last summer, it looks like the highest 20min power was 405 watts. This was in a crit when I was in a break for most of the race.


How much do you weigh? Regardless...good numbers most likely.. Crits are nice for the heavier guys/gals bec it is more about power to drag ratio than power to weight for most of race..


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## JackDaniels

Yep, 190 to 195. I get dropped on anything with extended climbing. I'd love to lose 25 lbs with the same power, but that's not gonna happen.


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## cody1

175 Lbs 51 years old 290w hour 305w 20 min. Not a racer, but felt like I was a strong rider till I see some of these numbers of others. Age could be a factor, seems like I lost a lot of strength the last few years. There always will be someone stronger coming along. Also numbers taken on calibrated computrainer.


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## scottzj

JackDaniels said:


> Yep, 190 to 195. I get dropped on anything with extended climbing. I'd love to lose 25 lbs with the same power, but that's not gonna happen.



Never say die bra....I have lost over 121 lbs in he past few years and still have great power at 185-190. I want to be at 170 at 6'3 for this coming race season but wanting to make sure there isn't loss of power doing so.


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## Andy STi

Weight: 163lbs/73.9kg
Height: 6'1"/185.4cm
20 min Power: 330watts or 4.46 w/kg
Cat 1 40+ masters racing. Top 20 in the stage races, like Cascade and Hood (lose in the TT), with a couple wins (road and MTB) throughout the year. Just won 11 cross races this fall.

Goal is to improve my TT ability. Really want to be top ten in the stage races.


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## OHroadie

I know this is the internet but I am quite humbled by the numbers a lot of you are posting. I just did my first FTP test on the road last Friday. My peak last April was a 20 min of 271 watts and FTP of 252 watts during a 2 hour race. I am pretty happy with how my training is going so far this fall since didn't ride much at all from June -Sept.

Cat5
183lbs/ 83 Kg
FTP 249 watts 60 min
3.0w/kg

My goals are to get my FTP near 300 and lose 13lbs by March.


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## cda 455

rydbyk said:


> I ran some quick searches and didn't find anything this specific. Sorry if this has been posted/asked already.
> 
> There was a thread over on mtbr about this, but this seems like an even more appropriate place to post.
> 
> This would be cool to see. Maybe follow this set up here: Post current #s
> 
> Weight: 154lbs
> Avg 20 min pwr: 280w
> w/kg: (ftp of 265w / 69kg) = 3.8 or (4.0 not using ftp)
> Category: Cat1 mtb
> Typical last season results: Cat1 mtb...mid pack S. Calif.
> Season Goal: Get power to 4+w/kg and lose 3 lbs before season begins in March


I have nothing to contribute to the thread, but I couldn't help think of this vid while reading all the poasts  ! (Start at 00:30 for thread topic :wink


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## Undecided

OHroadie said:


> *I know this is the internet* but I am quite humbled by the numbers a lot of you are posting.


[Emphasis added.]

I don't know why, given the (general) anonymity here, anyone would lie, but I accept that you think they may. But FWIW I don't think many cat 2 or better racers who pay a good amount of attention to "the numbers" (or others who are familiar with a lot of decently high-level amateur bike racers) would think anyone would bother to make up the numbers we've seen posted here. They're not crazy. Give yourself some time and training and you may see pretty large gains; consider that some of these people have put several years of continuous training into the sport.


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## cda 455

Undecided said:


> [Emphasis added.]
> 
> I don't know why, given the (general) anonymity here, anyone would lie, but I accept that you think they may. But FWIW I don't think many cat 2 or better racers who pay a good amount of attention to "the numbers" (or others who are familiar with a lot of decently high-level amateur bike racers) would think anyone would bother to make up the numbers we've seen posted here. They're not crazy. Give yourself some time and training and you may see pretty large gains; consider that some of these people have put several years of continuous training into the sport.



We do have at least two pro's that I know of who check in from time to time.


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## Wookiebiker

Undecided said:


> [Emphasis added.]
> 
> I don't know why, given the (general) anonymity here, anyone would lie, but I accept that you think they may. But FWIW I don't think many cat 2 or better racers who pay a good amount of attention to "the numbers" (or others who are familiar with a lot of decently high-level amateur bike racers) would think anyone would bother to make up the numbers we've seen posted here. They're not crazy. Give yourself some time and training and you may see pretty large gains; consider that some of these people have put several years of continuous training into the sport.



The other aspect missed by "The Internet" thoughts, is this ... The sampling size in this thread is from a very large number. There are how many people that frequent this site ... 10,000? 20,000? Out of those, 20 or so people have answered this thread.

Many that have answered are seasoned racers who have spent a lot of time both training and racing ... though the categories vary, most are CAT 3, 2 or 1's.

There are others on this forum that have much better w/kg numbers than what have been posted so far, some of which are in the pro ranks ... they just don't have the time/desire to post on a thread such as this.

When I started riding, I would guess my FTP was somewhere in the low 200's. Entering my 7th year of racing and training it's in the mid 300's and that includes a "Whole" lot of riding, racing and training (currently putting in 16+ hours a week of base miles).

It is the internet ... but not much reason to stretch the truth on this thread and I haven't seen anything truly anomalous so far.

Heck ... I know a guy that doesn't race any longer, but when he was in his early 40's he had an FTP around 410 watts (not sure what his 20 minute power was). He was a bigger guy in the 6'4" 210 range and a former D1 college TE ...So, not on this forum, but would destroy everybody from a pure power perspective.


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## rydbyk

If I were to fabricate numbers, trust me, it would not have been a 4.0w/kg number  I think for my second pwr test that I will find a steady grade climb for 20min and see what happens to my numbers. Also, like Wookie mentioned, a small percentage of visitors to this thread have actually responded. Usually those who have responded feel pretty good about their power numbers and are willing to share. This can be misleading and make some think that these numbers are avg and normal. Kinda like when you go the beach in the summer...you will see a ton of fit people in bathing suits. It makes you feel that everyone in the world is fit and tan..haha. Nah...the people you see are the ones that are fit and just happen to be comfortable cruising around half dressed all day.. In San Diego, it's like they run a shuttle from 24fitness to the beach or something..


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## Andy STi

I have raced with Wookie before, I know he can put down the power and he is a great guy to be in a break with. I totally believe his numbers and I feel most others in here are true also. 

No reason to inflate in this type of forum. Most of us have full time jobs and just enjoy using to the data to make our training more efficient.


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## OHroadie

You guys that responded certainly made great points about the sampling size. It's just seeing one post after another with numbers of 300+ did seem like everybody can do that, like the magic 20mph number. 
Obviously a lot of you have some serious saddle time in order to acquire that fitness level. I noticed that there can be a big difference between normalized and actual power as well, but maybe that is just my own opinion when looking at my own stats. 

I didn't mean to make you guys or gals to be lairs, so I apologize if that came over that way. 

On a side question, how would know if someone with and 20 min of xxx or FTP of xxx just has raw talent? If that is a blatant hijack, I'll repost elsewhere.


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## rydbyk

OHroadie said:


> You guys that responded certainly made great points about the sampling size. It's just seeing one post after another with numbers of 300+ did seem like everybody can do that, like the magic 20mph number.
> Obviously a lot of you have some serious saddle time in order to acquire that fitness level. I noticed that there can be a big difference between normalized and actual power as well, but maybe that is just my own opinion when looking at my own stats.
> 
> I didn't mean to make you guys or gals to be lairs, so I apologize if that came over that way.
> 
> On a side question, how would know if someone with and 20 min of xxx or FTP of xxx just has raw talent? If that is a blatant hijack, I'll repost elsewhere.


Simple really...

If you see someone who spends very little time in the saddle, yet can produce big numbers w/kg, then they have some "raw" talent and should go find a coach asap.

Also, at very high levels of cycling, when everyone is putting in 15+ hours a week and someone has way bigger numbers w/kg, then perhaps that have the genetic gift.

I believe that for the most part, it is dangerous to label folks as raw talent. It seems to be thrown around as a cop out sometimes. Most people have the ability to out train others who have raw talent and school them on race day. AKA, there are a lot of people with raw talent that lack the work ethic for it to even matter. They don't know how to suffer sometimes.

Having said that, someone with raw talent who rides/trains a ton and knows how to dig deep is a machine on a bike!

It is at the higher levels that raw talent can be pointed out imo...like Cat1s to pro levels sorta thing...



OK...back to the numbers folks!:thumbsup:


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## Ghost234

Weight: 64-65kg 
Best 20min: 336w (5.17w/kg)
cat 4, but upgrading to 3 next season

I got a few top 5's in races this season, but I won 7/8 time trials this season. The one exception I lost by 3 seconds. My biggest win margin was nearly 3 minutes over 30km. Sadly, where I live it is very flat and NOBODY lets any breaks get away. I'm not the best sprinter, so I do the best I can.


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## Poncharelli

Ghost234 said:


> Weight: 64-65kg
> Best 20min: 336w (5.17w/kg)
> cat 4, but upgrading to 3 next season
> .


Great numbers!! One of our local young talents is similar in power (at elevation) and weight. He's already moved into the 1's and did his first Pro-1 race this past summer. 

His specialty is field sprints though. He podiumed a field sprint at the Valley of Sun Cat 2, which is a very tough field. He told me his 5s is nearly 1400. That's crazy for such a small dude.


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## Ghost234

Unfortunately, my best 5s is 1027w. I've tried to improve it, but no luck. 

Oddly enough, despite my w/kg I'm definitely NOT a climber. On some of the "big" climbs in our area (I'm talking 100m elevation gain), I'm usually just ahead of the pack. When I travel for some stage races, I'm usually in the top 1/3, but never a leader. However, when it comes to TT's I seem to do much better than much larger riders. I think it is just the different muscles coming into play on climbs rather than flats (which I'm used to).


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## cda 455

I read an article recently about age and power output or something like that.


Who was one of their research subjects? Big Mig! Miguel Indurain.

IIRC, Big Mig was pushing something like 456w on his 20min run.


Not bad for a dude 48 Y.O.


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## rydbyk

Ghost234 said:


> Weight: 64-65kg
> Best 20min: 336w (5.17w/kg)
> cat 4, but upgrading to 3 next season
> 
> I got a few top 5's in races this season, but I won 7/8 time trials this season. The one exception I lost by 3 seconds. My biggest win margin was nearly 3 minutes over 30km. Sadly, where I live it is very flat and NOBODY lets any breaks get away. I'm not the best sprinter, so I do the best I can.


You are not a climber and you are not a sprinter with numbers like that? It seems like you should breeze right on thru the 3's and 2's if those numbers are correct.

Also, with numbers like that and your strength in time trialing, that you should easily be able to get out on a break all by yourself in Cat 4. 

Is your rear break dragging or something on race day!?


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## RaptorTC

I'm getting my 20 min power tested next month for the first time. It'll definitely be interesting to see where I stand compared to all these numbers being thrown around online all the time, especially since I have no road race experiences yet, only mountian bike races. Only downside is it'll be on a trainer, but its part of a competition within the team to see who can put up the biggest watts/kg number so I'll have some extra motivation.


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## kbiker3111

cda 455 said:


> I read an article recently about age and power output or something like that.
> 
> 
> Who was one of their research subjects? Big Mig! Miguel Indurain.
> 
> IIRC, Big Mig was pushing something like 456w on his 20min run.
> 
> 
> Not bad for a dude 48 Y.O.


Er



> Values at the individual lactate threshold (ILT): 4.28 L/min (46.4 mL · kg-1 · min-1), 329 W (3.57 W/kg), 159 beats/min, 2.4 mM


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22868823


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## spade2you

rydbyk said:


> You are not a climber and you are not a sprinter with numbers like that? It seems like you should breeze right on thru the 3's and 2's if those numbers are correct.
> 
> Also, with numbers like that and your strength in time trialing, that you should easily be able to get out on a break all by yourself in Cat 4.
> 
> Is your rear break dragging or something on race day!?


This surprises me as well.


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## akka

Yeah,old Indurain still has some bits of EPO inside..he can crank pretty well at 46years Anyway, Lance Armstrong was even better..in his prime he could put around 495W for half an hour or so..2004 Alpe D'Huez..huge power for around 38minutes,if I remember well.
Don't know but for me it seems impossibile to hold more than few minutes +400W..maybe the trainer resistance is more than they say on the graphic at a given speed..I can do 500squats in 12minutes..but cranking such huge power..I think there's something more needed here)
But looking at the pro's in 2010 or 2011 in TDF, they climbed Alpe D'Huez in no less than 41min(AVG around 20kmh on 7.9% at an 5.9W/kg estimate), Armstrong did it in 2004 with an AVG of 23.5kmh..that's quite a difference! I estimate I can do it with 16-17kmhAvg if a have a 6.8kilo bike like those guys..so can I consider my self a 'tiny' pro?


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## Wookiebiker

akka said:


> But looking at the pro's in 2010 or 2011 in TDF, they climbed Alpe D'Huez in no less than 41min(AVG around 20kmh on 7.9% at an 5.9W/kg estimate), Armstrong did it in 2004 with an AVG of 23.5kmh..that's quite a difference! I estimate I can do it with 16-17kmhAvg if a have a 6.8kilo bike like those guys..so can I consider my self a 'tiny' pro?


One difference in those times was Armstrong's time was during an idividual ITT effort up Alpe D'Huez ... so it didn't follow 90K+ of riding/climbing heading into it like the riders did in 2010/2011.

So ... yea, his numbers are higher and there should be a significant difference in those times.

With that said ... to keep this from being moved to a "Different" forum ... lets stay on topic of the power numbers from people on this forum since there is a big difference between the pro's and average joes :thumbsup:


----------



## spade2you

Wookiebiker said:


> One difference in those times was Armstrong's time was during an idividual ITT effort up Alpe D'Huez ... so it didn't follow 90K+ of riding/climbing heading into it like the riders did in 2010/2011.
> 
> So ... yea, his numbers are higher and there should be a significant difference in those times.
> 
> With that said ... to keep this from being moved to a "Different" forum ... lets stay on topic of the power numbers from people on this forum since there is a big difference between the pro's and average joes :thumbsup:


+1. More than enough bitterness and crying in this forum as of late.


----------



## kbiker3111

akka said:


> Yeah,old Indurain still has some bits of EPO inside..he can crank pretty well at 46years Anyway, Lance Armstrong was even better..in his prime he could put around 495W for half an hour or so..2004 Alpe D'Huez..huge power for around 38minutes,if I remember well.
> Don't know but for me it seems impossibile to hold more than few minutes +400W..maybe the trainer resistance is more than they say on the graphic at a given speed..I can do 500squats in 12minutes..but cranking such huge power..I think there's something more needed here)
> But looking at the pro's in 2010 or 2011 in TDF, they climbed Alpe D'Huez in no less than 41min(AVG around 20kmh on 7.9% at an 5.9W/kg estimate), Armstrong did it in 2004 with an AVG of 23.5kmh..that's quite a difference! I estimate I can do it with 16-17kmhAvg if a have a 6.8kilo bike like those guys..so can I consider my self a 'tiny' pro?


Sweet Jebus, 2 posts and you're trying to ruin a perfectly good thread.


----------



## spade2you

kbiker3111 said:


> Sweet Jebus, 2 posts and you're trying to ruin a perfectly good thread.


Ugg boots. OMG Ugg boots.


----------



## hecbom

For comparison;
58Kg or about 128 lbs
5'6" tall
my Normalized FTP recently checked 210W 
However, I can outclimb guys 1/2 my age (I'm 60) who race cat3 and 4 up to the ski lift at Mt.Baldy. I gave up racing 30 years ago but continue to ride hard.


----------



## Fireform

Major caveat here--I don't have a power meter, so all I can go by are the estimates from the Strava algorithm, for whatever they're worth. 

According to that, my best recent effort came two weeks ago in a two man break in a 90 mile informal road race, 397 watts at 5.2 watts/kg. A year earlier I was 25 pounds heavier and did the same ride in a 3 man break (not coincidentally, with the same guy I attacked with in this year's break), and managed 417 watts at 4.8 w/kg. These are *not* averages, they're best efforts.

I'm about to turn 52 this week, so I think Strava is blowing some major smoke up my skirt with those numbers. The climbs were noticeably easier this year though. I plan on buying a power meter this year if at all possible.


----------



## spade2you

I probably wouldn't put much or any stock in Strava. Too much wind and drafting taken out of the equation.


----------



## Ghost234

rydbyk said:


> You are not a climber and you are not a sprinter with numbers like that? It seems like you should breeze right on thru the 3's and 2's if those numbers are correct.
> 
> Also, with numbers like that and your strength in time trialing, that you should easily be able to get out on a break all by yourself in Cat 4.
> 
> Is your rear break dragging or something on race day!?



I have the upgrade points for 3 - so I will be racing in the 3's next season. A 1000w 5s sprint is pretty pathetic in most fields. I know for a fact that 2 of my competitors in 3 can consistently break 1600w (although they are closer to 80kg).

Additionally, because it is very flat most people will chase down any breaks almost as soon as they happen. In the few breaks that I did initiate last season, we almost always got shut down very quickly, either through disorganization or the pack refusing to relent. All my wins this season were in time trials - with my biggest margin of victory being 3 1/2 minutes over 30km.


----------



## Wookiebiker

Ghost234 said:


> I have the upgrade points for 3 - so I will be racing in the 3's next season. A 1000w 5s sprint is pretty pathetic in most fields. I know for a fact that 2 of my competitors in 3 can consistently break 1600w (although they are closer to 80kg).
> 
> Additionally, because it is very flat most people will chase down any breaks almost as soon as they happen. In the few breaks that I did initiate last season, we almost always got shut down very quickly, either through disorganization or the pack refusing to relent. All my wins this season were in time trials - with my biggest margin of victory being 3 1/2 minutes over 30km.


Sounds like you just need to learn how/when to start a break 

On flat stages like that, if you know the other good TT guys, get together before the start of the race and put together a stratagy of hitting it hard during crosswind sections ... this will blow off the majority of the field since they won't have the FTP to stay in the field/break. Make sure you gutter the field until you are away.

From that point ... it's just a matter of working with one another in a rotating paceline until the finish, then let the best man win at that point.

For what it's worth ... The guy I knew with an FTP in the 410 watt range was much like you. His top end sprint was just under 1100 watts and this was for a 210 pound guy. He also had a hard time on downhills because he couldn't spin over 100 RPM, so he would also get dropped on the downhills. But he could hold a very, very fast pace on the flats and was a great tempo climber and as long as there were no accelerations on the climbs, he would stay with faster racers. He rarely won races, but would be top 10 a lot.


----------



## rydbyk

Ghost234 said:


> I have the upgrade points for 3 - so I will be racing in the 3's next season. A 1000w 5s sprint is pretty pathetic in most fields. I know for a fact that 2 of my competitors in 3 can consistently break 1600w (although they are closer to 80kg).
> 
> Additionally, because it is very flat most people will chase down any breaks almost as soon as they happen. In the few breaks that I did initiate last season, we almost always got shut down very quickly, either through disorganization or the pack refusing to relent. All my wins this season were in time trials - with my biggest margin of victory being 3 1/2 minutes over 30km.


If your numbers are accurate, get a coach to help you dial in a few things. You might surprise yourself how fast/dominant you become after tweeking a few things training-wise.

Good luck out there!


----------



## kmak

I'll be happy to set the low here - getting back in shape after a year off the bike due to an accident. No aspirations to ever race, just enjoy riding and am trying to get better at it. Just did the test last week:

20min avg. power: 200W
Weight 75kg


----------



## cda 455

spade2you said:


> Ugg boots. OMG Ugg boots.



:lol:


----------



## Andy STi

In reality it doesn't matter what your power is. Power numbers don't win a race or make your ride more enjoyable. The numbers are used to set up a training program. 

I bought a power meter this year because I wanted to return to road racing and I wanted to train efficiently. I raced from '86-'99 and continued to ride after but I wanted to maximize my time this year, thus the power meter. I'm sure I've beat riders with higher w/kg this year and I'm sure I've been beaten by riders with lower numbers. So many variables go into a race. It's all fun though.

If I wasn't racing I wouldn't want the extra data - although I know some of us love all the data we can get.


----------



## rydbyk

Andy STi said:


> In reality it doesn't matter what your power is. Power numbers don't win a race or make your ride more enjoyable. The numbers are used to set up a training program.
> 
> I bought a power meter this year because I wanted to return to road racing and I wanted to train efficiently. I raced from '86-'99 and continued to ride after but I wanted to maximize my time this year, thus the power meter. I'm sure I've beat riders with higher w/kg this year and I'm sure I've been beaten by riders with lower numbers. So many variables go into a race. It's all fun though.
> 
> If I wasn't racing I wouldn't want the extra data - although I know some of us love all the data we can get.


I am pretty sure you would push a magic button if you could wake up tomorrow with an extra 100w at 20min. You race. You are competitive. I am not buying this one...sorry.

It is just sorta like saying... it doesn't matter in an NFL quarterback has a good arm or not because there are too many variables involved.


----------



## JackDaniels

spade2you said:


> I probably wouldn't put much or any stock in Strava. Too much wind and drafting taken out of the equation.


If you do have a power meter though, it looks like strava just added some new stuff for power analysis today. Made me think of this thread...


----------



## RaptorTC

Fireform said:


> Major caveat here--I don't have a power meter, so all I can go by are the estimates from the Strava algorithm, for whatever they're worth.


Yeah, I wouldn't put too much faith in those Strava numbers. According to those I put out 564 Watts for 10 minutes a couple months back. What Strava didn't know is that I spent half that time drafting behind a guy while getting pushed along by a nice little tailwind.


----------



## Andy STi

rydbyk said:


> I am pretty sure you would push a magic button if you could wake up tomorrow with an extra 100w at 20min. You race. You are competitive. I am not buying this one...sorry.
> 
> It is just sorta like saying... it doesn't matter in an NFL quarterback has a good arm or not because there are too many variables involved.


Haha, very true. Hell yeah, I want more power, with 50 more watts I could have been in the mix at Nats instead of blowing up while in 5th place with about 4 miles to go. 

I guess I didn't say it correctly. Too many people get hung up on their numbers when in reality it doesn't make your ride more enjoyable. I think power meters for riders who don't race is a waste of money. Sure numbers are cool but just because your 20 min power is 250 doesn't mean you'll get dropped on the local group ride. Knowing how to ride can mean as much as high numbers sometimes.

Power is not the absolute. I don't know if that makes sense.


----------



## new2rd

Picked up a Quarq a few months ago. Did an 8 min Time Crunched Cyclist at 288. My 20 min is around 255-260. I weigh 165, 41 yrs old, and just started riding 2 years ago. I can tell that I've made some good gains this past year, but I have a long way to go. There's something said for cyclists that have 100,000 miles and 10 years on their legs. I have 93,000 left!


----------



## Wookiebiker

Andy STi said:


> I guess I didn't say it correctly. Too many people get hung up on their numbers when in reality it doesn't make your ride more enjoyable. I think power meters for riders who don't race is a waste of money. Sure numbers are cool but just because your 20 min power is 250 doesn't mean you'll get dropped on the local group ride. Knowing how to ride can mean as much as high numbers sometimes.
> 
> Power is not the absolute. I don't know if that makes sense.


There is "Some" truth in this ... but it only applies if you are in the ballpark of the other riders in the field. If you're not ... you're off the back (or off the front if you are way above everybody else).

I think the better number to know for general racing purposes is w/kg as it tells you more about your overall abilities than pure watts.

The best number to know is a combination of two: Your overall FTP and your FTP w/kg because it can tell you a lot about what type of rider you are and where your strengths and weaknesses are.

If you have a 2000 watt sprint ... it does you no good if you have an an FTP of 200 watts or a w/kg of 2.5 at FPT because you will never be there at the end of the race to put those watts out (Unless you are on the track and even then, you may suffer in points races and such).

20 minute power is a good baseline ... but isn't everything, and that's what makes cycling such a great sport ... there are different styles and types of riding to suit abilities of almost every background:

Huge sprint ... go to the track
High FTP ... TT's
High FTP and low weight ... climbing and possibly TT's
High FTP, good weight and good sprint ... all around racer
Decent FTP, great sprint that can be repeated ... crit racer


----------



## spade2you

Andy STi said:


> Haha, very true. Hell yeah, I want more power, with 50 more watts I could have been in the mix at Nats instead of blowing up while in 5th place with about 4 miles to go.
> 
> I guess I didn't say it correctly. Too many people get hung up on their numbers when in reality it doesn't make your ride more enjoyable. I think power meters for riders who don't race is a waste of money. Sure numbers are cool but just because your 20 min power is 250 doesn't mean you'll get dropped on the local group ride. Knowing how to ride can mean as much as high numbers sometimes.
> 
> Power is not the absolute. I don't know if that makes sense.


I won't argue with that, especially when you look at the statistical jargon that was thrown out in the beet root thread.  I took several years of statistics and can't say that I want to incorporate it into cycling. 

That being said, I use my Quarq to set benchmark power numbers, critique performances, and to see if I'm peaking or running more than a few watts flat. Obviously during a road race, you best not be looking at your computer. During ITTs, I use the PM to control my pace since I tended to want to go out too hard on race day.


----------



## OHroadie

Wookiebiker said:


> 20 minute power is a good baseline ... but isn't everything, and that's what makes cycling such a great sport ... there are different styles and types of riding to suit abilities of almost every background:
> 
> Huge sprint ... go to the track
> High FTP ... TT's
> High FTP and low weight ... climbing and possibly TT's
> High FTP, good weight and good sprint ... all around racer
> Decent FTP, great sprint that can be repeated ... crit racer



This is what I was looking for as well...fill in the numbers for each of those types of riders. I have an power profile spreadsheet, but I'd to see opinions of what you all think those numbers should be. (I'm not talking pro-level though)

Power isn't everything but my own fun is derived racing against the guys in my local Tuesday night hammerfest rides. Without semi-equal output it wouldn't be much fun.


----------



## viciouscycle

My spring numbers and then fall numbers, 6 months of training with power.

53 yrs
168 lbs
30 min avg 261 watts
Avg HRT was 162

Sept #'s

165 lbs
285 watts
166 avg HRT


----------



## spade2you

JackDaniels said:


> If you do have a power meter though, it looks like strava just added some new stuff for power analysis today. Made me think of this thread...


Interesting. 

Garmin added normalized power during the late summer. 'Bout time.


----------



## akka

kbiker3111 said:


> Sweet Jebus, 2 posts and you're trying to ruin a perfectly good thread.


 That was not my intention..for sure. Just fooling around..sorry! Anyway.."IF understood life is simply a jest/ Misunderstood ,life becomes a pest/ Once overcome, life is ever at rest!" Hope you like it
And on topic, I find it harder on a trainer to keep a certain wattage that on the road..I dont know why always the normalized power is bigger than the real power-for me the reverse sounds real! Staying constantly for 1-2hours at lets say 250W on the trainer could make you go crazy...on the road..it's different( a little bit easy) from my point of view..
Have a good night !
PS:who is Jebus?!


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST

Fireform said:


> Major caveat here--I don't have a power meter, so all I can go by are the estimates from the Strava algorithm, for whatever they're worth.


Random number generator.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST

akka said:


> And on topic, I find it harder on a trainer to keep a certain wattage that on the road.


That's pretty typical.



akka said:


> I dont know why always the normalized power is bigger than the real power-for me the reverse sounds real!


The normalized power algorithm (applied properly) will always result in NP >= AP.


----------



## Chris96

16yrs
63kg (~139lbs)
20 min average: 349w (5.5w/kg)
FTP : 5.27w/kg


----------



## rydbyk

Chris96 said:


> 16yrs
> 63kg (~139lbs)
> 20 min average: 349w (5.5w/kg)
> FTP : 5.27w/kg


Cool, we will watch for you in the TdF soon then.


----------



## clones2

rydbyk said:


> Cool, we will watch for you in the TdF soon then.


^^^^^^ this.


----------



## StevenG

Just did Threshold test earlier this week. 68.5Kg 284W 20min - 270 FTF 3.94 w/wkg. Cat3 CX, no road & some MTB enduro stuff in spring & summer. Been power training 3 years & still trying to crack 4.0 w/kg.


----------



## Doc_D

These are my peak numbers from last season...

41 Years Old (first year racing last year in cat 5)
130 pounds / 59 Kg
20 Min power: 209 watts 3.54 watt/kg
FTP: 199 watts 3.37 watts/kg

I'm actually not a big fan of comparing people using watts/kg. I'm in a flatter area and watts/kg means just about nothing for comparing two riders. Total wattage is probably a much better predictor of race performance here in flat land. My 3.37 watts/kg at 130 pounds (199 watts) would get destroyed by a 220 pound guy putting out only 2.75 watts/kg (275 watts).


----------



## Vibe

Right now:

Weight: 159
Avg 20 min pwr: 235w normalized (taken from garmin on my ride this morning)
Category: Just upgraded to 4 (haven't raced a 4 race yet)

During the season:

Weight: 140-143
Avg 20 min power: 388 watts

I hope to upgrade to cat 3 within 1.5 yrs...

goals:
- Need to get down to race weight
- Finish at least 5-8 with top 10 finishes
- Finish at least a couple of races with top 5
- Win at least one race
- Finish tour of battenkill top 15-20


----------



## RRRoubaix

Modesty decrees that I should just shut the hell up, but after getting my arse handed to me on a weekly basis in 'cross, my self-worth ain't all that high anyway. 
(Especially embarrassing w/ an ex-teammate here on the forum- hi Ron/Wookie! Hellacious numbers dude!! :thumbsup: Wish I was there to train w/ you.)
Now, I will say that moving up to Seattle has been hell on my fitness, what w/ the move and the househunting and the moving (Yes, that's in there twice) and trying to find new training roads and my mom having a stroke and... and... and... well, you get the idea. It's hasn't been idyllic.

Weight: 190lbs, 5' 10" (Yes, I'm overweight)
Avg 20 min pwr via Powertap: 190w :blush2:
Avg 20 min pwr via Computrainer: 230w
Category: Cat4, Masters 50+ for Cyclocross and MTB
Typical last season results: 70th percentile in Cross
Season Goal: lose some weight, get stronger, be happy.

Old, slow and fat.
Trying to change two of those...


----------



## Creakyknees

Weight: 184lbs
Avg 20 min pwr: 380w
w/kg: 4.5 
Category: masters roadie
Typical last season results: a few wins, lots of strong domestique work
Season Goal: Same thing we do every year, Pinky! Take over the world!


----------



## spade2you

RRRoubaix said:


> Modesty decrees that I should just shut the hell up, but after getting my arse handed to me on a weekly basis in 'cross, my self-worth ain't all that high anyway.
> (Especially embarrassing w/ an ex-teammate here on the forum- hi Ron/Wookie! Hellacious numbers dude!! :thumbsup: Wish I was there to train w/ you.)
> Now, I will say that moving up to Seattle has been hell on my fitness, what w/ the move and the househunting and the moving (Yes, that's in there twice) and trying to find new training roads and my mom having a stroke and... and... and... well, you get the idea. It's hasn't been idyllic.
> 
> Weight: 190lbs, 5' 10" (Yes, I'm overweight)
> Avg 20 min pwr via Powertap: 190w :blush2:
> Avg 20 min pwr via Computrainer: 230w
> Category: Cat4, Masters 50+ for Cyclocross and MTB
> Typical last season results: 70th percentile in Cross
> Season Goal: lose some weight, get stronger, be happy.
> 
> Old, slow and fat.
> Trying to change two of those...


Were those 20min power measurements from the same effort?


----------



## rydbyk

Vibe,

Why are you shooting for Cat3 within the next couple of seasons!?

If you are 142 pounds and can avg 388 for 20 min, you should be racing Cat2 road right now....perhaps Cat 1.

Double check something?


----------



## RRRoubaix

spade2you said:


> Were those 20min power measurements from the same effort?


Yes! Caloric counts were off as well.
Only time I've ever used the Powertap at my Computrainer class, but I've had some insanely unrealistic numbers there. (Both good and bad- I've had a couple times where my avg was 27-28mph and my HR was in the 140's... Mmm hmmm, suuuure it's accurate.)


----------



## spade2you

RRRoubaix said:


> Yes! Caloric counts were off as well.
> Only time I've ever used the Powertap at my Computrainer class, but I've had some insanely unrealistic numbers there. (Both good and bad- I've had a couple times where my avg was 27-28mph and my HR was in the 140's... Mmm hmmm, suuuure it's accurate.)


Interesting. When I was doing VO2 max testing the university's Computrainer and my Quarq were always within a few watts.


----------



## Vibe

rydbyk said:


> Vibe,
> 
> Why are you shooting for Cat3 within the next couple of seasons!?
> 
> If you are 142 pounds and can avg 388 for 20 min, you should be racing Cat2 road right now....perhaps Cat 1.
> 
> Double check something?


Well - according to strava (also have a powertap), i avg'd 388w 20mins but the weight is probably not that low. I was probably 155lbs when that was recorded but my goal is to get down to 140-145lbs weight range for the coming season and maintain the power. 

sorry about that


----------



## RaptorTC

Just did my first test with power today. Was definitely an interesting experience.

20 y/o
197 lb (89.4kg) and 6'3" 
308 Watts
3.45 w/kg

Never raced before, so I guess that'd make me a cat 5.


----------



## spade2you

Did another 30 minute test at 215w for 30 minutes. I might finally get around to testing my 20min power soon.

215w
123lbs (apparently, I've enjoyed too much good cooking and too many homebrews)
3.8w/kg.


----------



## rydbyk

spade2you said:


> Did another 30 minute test at 215w for 30 minutes. I might finally get around to testing my 20min power soon.
> 
> 215w
> 123lbs (apparently, I've enjoyed too much good cooking and too many homebrews)
> 3.8w/kg.


Yeh....at 123lbs..it sounds like you are really letting yourself go there buddy...


----------



## Wookiebiker

I did 363 for 24:29 up a climb last week, but only averaged 155 bpm ... If I was really pushing it I probably would have been closer to 380 watts for the climb. Overall ... Pretty good for this time of the season. Though I'm weighing in around 205 pounds (3.9 w/kg) right now, so I have about 15 to lose (though I'm usually around 215 - 220 pounds this time of the year).

Of course ... after doing that and starting to feel good about my fitness, I got a saddle sore on Wednesday and a cold this weekend (though I did get in 69 miles yesterday). The saddle sore made me miss 3-4 hours of riding during last week and the cold made me miss 3.5 hours of riding today.

At least they both came at the same time! I'm likely going to call in sick tomorrow and if feeling a little better will get out for a good 3 hour endurance ride to open up my lungs and sinuses.


----------



## spade2you

rydbyk said:


> Yeh....at 123lbs..it sounds like you are really letting yourself go there buddy...


LOL, given my power numbers, I had better be light or the recreational riders would whoop me.


----------



## Cableguy

Vibe said:


> Right now:
> 
> Weight: 159
> Avg 20 min pwr: 235w normalized (taken from garmin on my ride this morning)
> Category: Just upgraded to 4 (haven't raced a 4 race yet)
> 
> During the season:
> 
> Weight: 140-143
> Avg 20 min power: 388 watts
> 
> I hope to upgrade to cat 3 within 1.5 yrs...


So... right now you have a Cat 5 power profile, but during the season you transform into a world class cyclist... and you're concerned about getting Cat 3?

lmao

(Don't use Strava for power estimates.)


----------



## The Human G-Nome

Cableguy said:


> So... right now you have a Cat 5 power profile, but during the season you transform into a world class cyclist... and you're concerned about getting Cat 3?
> 
> lmao
> 
> (Don't use Strava for power estimates.)


God, I love the internet.


----------



## serious

Finally got some numbers on my 20 minute ave power. It was part of a 2x20 interval training session. My CycleOps 300Pro showed 255W average (241W on the second interval with 5 minute rest). I weigh 68.6kg, but want to drop to 65kg before race season starts at the end of April. At least that is the plan.


----------



## spade2you

If my 30min is about 215w and my 10min climbing repeat is about 260w, any thoughts on what my 1st 20min attempt should be? ~230w?


----------



## Poncharelli

As I read through all these power numbers, I can only conclude one thing: power numbers are mostlyl good for training guidelines. 

Because it seems that we all have the same power numbers and perform differently in actual racing. 

The Ryan Trebon vs. Adam Craig power analysis was pretty fascinating (two world class mountain bikers). Why could Adam Craig match Ryan Trebon in world cup type races even though Ryan's FTP power was far superior to Craig's?

-Superior riding skills and overall riding efficiency of Craigs'
-Craig's ability to ride twice as long at suprathreshold efforts (they tested this)
-Craig's ability to repeat and recover from suprathreshold efforts (they tested this as well)

These are all things an FTP tests do not capture. FTP tells some of the story but not the whole story.


----------



## Dan333sp

I haven't ever done a power test, and my results would probably be disappointing as a middling cat 4/collegiate C racer. I do know that a guy on my university's team has a powertap and trains ~15 hours a week with an FTP of 300w and hovers around the 6.0 w/Kg mark at 21 years old. He is an absolute beast, and is fishing for a domestic pro contract. I can only wish I had those genetics/time for training.


----------



## Cableguy

Dan333sp said:


> I do know that a guy on my university's team has a powertap and trains ~15 hours a week with an FTP of 300w and hovers around the 6.0 w/Kg mark at 21 years old.


FYI he'd have to weigh about 110lb to have that FTP ratio, so is he an oompa loompa? =P More than likely he's 150-160lb, which would still put him in the "damn fast" category of Cat3-Cat2, but no where near 6.0 w/kg.


----------



## spade2you

Cableguy said:


> so is he an oompa loompa? =P


Hey


----------



## Dan333sp

He's around 135, so he must have meant 5.0 w/Kg. Clearly he spends more time on the bike than in class learning about metric conversions!


----------



## Bridgestone

I do not have a power meter so I was wondering what kinda of wattage one gets at 20MPH on level ground for a 145-165 lb rider.


----------



## cody1

About 215 watts.


----------



## Bridgestone

cody1 said:


> About 215 watts.


Thanks for that, I guess this online calculator is way off as it is telling me 366 watts 
Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST

Bridgestone said:


> Thanks for that, I guess this online calculator is way off as it is telling me 366 watts
> Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator


Both could be correct.

IOW there is insufficient information to answer the question. We'd also need to know your aerodynamic profile, rolling resistance of your tyres and surface, whether you mean steady state or during an acceleration (and if so the rate of acceleration), and wind velocity.

analyticcycling.com is better, but unless you know the inputs, then the answer will always be "it depends".


----------



## Bridgestone

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Both could be correct.
> 
> IOW there is insufficient information to answer the question. We'd also need to know your aerodynamic profile, rolling resistance of your tyres and surface, whether you mean steady state or during an acceleration (and if so the rate of acceleration), and wind velocity.
> 
> analyticcycling.com is better, but unless you know the inputs, then the answer will always be "it depends".


Thanks for that link! I come up with 311 watts for my inputs at 20 mph using that program.


----------



## Andrew L

I may be completely wrong but does it matter if you have zero-averaging on or off? Seems like if you did not take into account zeros it could give you "artificially" high numbers compared to someone that does. I just started training with power and I am curious what most people use as their setting and if this would indeed make a difference...


----------



## Diopena1

Shoot, looking at all your power numbers dwarfs my attempts to even compete. 
Im 194
Dont have 20 min avg, but for 1 hr avg I'm in the 140 watt range, peaking between 600-900 watts when I sprint for about 30 seconds. 
I dont compete, but analyze my ride data to monitor my heart rate vs. power output. (I've been diagnosed with High Blood Pressure, its hereditary, and I will beat it!). 
This is winter weight, I drop to about 180-185 for summer and this will be my first summer with a powermeter.. so Let's see what happens.
I cruise at about 20mph on flats, can crank uphill at 11-18mph somewhat steady.... 
Like I said... my output is dismal compared to you guys, this is my second year on a road bike after an 11yr hiatus off the pedals.


----------



## serious

Andrew L said:


> I may be completely wrong but does it matter if you have zero-averaging on or off? Seems like if you did not take into account zeros it could give you "artificially" high numbers compared to someone that does. I just started training with power and I am curious what most people use as their setting and if this would indeed make a difference...


I think zero averaging should be part of the equation, especially in group rides. One can always look at normalized power to image what could have been. 

But for indoor riding it does not matter. I have zero averaging on, just in case I stop, but I only stop on rides longer than 2 hours and only to change my clothes.


----------



## Jesse R.

I finally got around to punishing myself with another TrainerRoad 20 minute interval. I did my first back in early December when I started my training plan. The numbers then were 225 watts with a 166 HR. Today I managed 255 watts with exactly the same heart rate of 166. I weighed 144 lbs just before the workout. This gives me around a 242 FTP and around 3.7watts/kg... 
I'm pretty content with those numbers this early in the season, and always happy to see improvements! This is my first year racing on the road, so I'm a Cat 5 for the time being, and in my first four races I've yet to finish outside of the top six in very large fields, including a win on Sunday in the Pine Flat Road Race.


----------



## Fireform

Fireform said:


> Major caveat here--I don't have a power meter, so all I can go by are the estimates from the Strava algorithm, for whatever they're worth.
> 
> According to that, my best recent effort came two weeks ago in a two man break in a 90 mile informal road race, 397 watts at 5.2 watts/kg. A year earlier I was 25 pounds heavier and did the same ride in a 3 man break (not coincidentally, with the same guy I attacked with in this year's break), and managed 417 watts at 4.8 w/kg. These are *not* averages, they're best efforts.
> 
> I'm about to turn 52 this week, so I think Strava is blowing some major smoke up my skirt with those numbers. The climbs were noticeably easier this year though. I plan on buying a power meter this year if at all possible.


Here's a good indication of the inflation you get with Strava numbers. I just did a 30 min TT on a trainer with power and came out with a 20 min average of 272 watts at 69.3 kg, or 3.92 w/kg. Ok as a starting point for a 52 year old.


----------



## Chris96

Fireform said:


> Here's a good indication of the inflation you get with Strava numbers. I just did a 30 min TT on a trainer with power and came out with a 20 min average of 272 watts at 69.3 kg, or 3.92 w/kg. Ok as a starting point for a 52 year old.


The strava numbers assume that you are riding on the front and use generic frontal area, rolling resistance and air density figures. If you know these Analytic Cycling is a good way to more accurately estimate power


----------



## Fireform

Actually, my coach just sent my real numbers and they were a little higher-283.7 watts or 4.11 w/kg. So far so good.


----------



## Undecided

Where did he get 11 watts more than you got?


----------



## Fireform

Undecided said:


> Where did he get 11 watts more than you got?


I think the number I saw was an intermediate average. There were a lot of little numbers on his laptop screen.


----------



## kmak

Fireform said:


> I think the number I saw was an intermediate average. There were a lot of little numbers on his laptop screen.


I am guessing normalized power vs. average power?


----------



## Fireform

His number was reported to me as "average power: active"


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## Undecided

I don't know what that means, but could it mean "excluding zeros"?


----------



## Fireform

Undecided said:


> I don't know what that means, but could it mean "excluding zeros"?


Possibly, but there weren't any zeros. I am capable of keeping my cranks turning for 30 minutes straight, incredible as that might sound.


----------



## Undecided

Fireform said:


> Possibly, but there weren't any zeros. I am capable of keeping my cranks turning for 30 minutes straight, incredible as that might sound.


Oh, it's not incredible, and I'm not criticizing, just wondering what accounts for the discrepancy, mostly just so you can use the same method to observe your intervals that your coach is using in looking at the file after the fact. E.g., if you're supposed to do some interval at 93% of threshold, don't you want to know that the average wattage you're seeing on your screen reflects the same view that your coach applied in determining your threshold?


----------



## Fireform

I think the difference was that I didn't know what I was looking at on his screen and he does. He's got nothing to gain from me thinking I'm stronger than I am, that's for sure. If he was going to bias anything at the outset of a training program I would think it would be the other way.


----------



## Vibe

my bad, here's the real thing:


----------



## ZoSoSwiM

Last summer I hovered around 4w/kg. However my repeatability wasn't as high as I wanted it.. Currently at 3.6w/kg or so but I can recover faster.. plus it's still super early in the season and I'm just now moving into the next phase of training.. First season with a coach so it'll be interesting to see where he leads me.


----------



## Duane Gran

I knew this thread would depress me. I only measure power on an indoor CompuTrainer, but here are my recent figures:

Weight: 63kg
Avg 20 min power: 295w
w/kg: 4.68
Cat4, climbing specialist


----------



## Creakyknees

mine's 408


----------



## Wookiebiker

Creakyknees said:


> mine's 408


You forgot the decimal point between the 40 and 8


----------



## spade2you

Creakyknees said:


> mine's 408


watts or kg?


----------



## kbiker3111

kbiker3111 said:


> 350 watts
> 179 lbs
> You can do the math
> 3
> Win more races.


377watts/176pounds... getting closer


----------



## serious

Duane Gran said:


> I knew this thread would depress me. I only measure power on an indoor CompuTrainer, but here are my recent figures:
> 
> Weight: 63kg
> Avg 20 min power: 295w
> w/kg: 4.68
> Cat4, climbing specialist


Yeah, I can see why you are depressed with 4.68 in Cat 4.


----------



## spade2you

serious said:


> Yeah, I can see why you are depressed with 4.68 in Cat 4.


LOL, no wonder I struggle so much in Cat 4 with 20min power like that.


----------



## Wookiebiker

serious said:


> Yeah, I can see why you are depressed with 4.68 in Cat 4.


Nothing like getting dropped by all those other CAT 4 guys with FTP w/kg's of 5+


----------



## The Human G-Nome

With the watts/kg that most of you Cat 4s are putting out, it's hard to understand why you're still Cat 4s. You must either just completely suck at tactics, have the 15 second power of a sloth, or else be the unluckiest racers ever. Most of you put me to shame, and I'm a 3 in a tough district.


----------



## spade2you

It's pretty competitive. I had a 45 minute crit where I was averaging about 4.5w/kg and climbed about 1250 feet in that crit. I was clinging on for dear life before I ultimately couldn't match the climbing pace. 

At the Joe Martin 2.5 mile uphill TT, my ~5.5w/kg ~11 minute effort was barely enough to crack the top 20. I admit that shorter TTs aren't my strong suit, but I was blown away with such a low place with that kind of power. I could have possibly tried to push 6w/kg if I didn't have a road race a few hours later. I sometimes wonder about giving it everything for the ITT, but I recover so poorly when dealing with just a few hours. 

I think my biggest obstacle is that I'm simply not a crit guy and there's only one local race with a nice sustained climb at the end, with everything else usually ending in a bunch sprint. 

With the lack of sustained climbs, I generally focus on time trialing. Even then, my times generally would place better in Cat 3 than Cat 4. It's too hard to upgrade via time trials. 

I can't deny that my luck is generally not very good. I'm usually 1-2 riders behind the split after spending a bunch of time near the front. I've been stuck working during a few really high priority races, only to go home and really stick some impressive power numbers at home.


----------



## Poncharelli

This is why I can make it to the 3s with <4w/kg. 

Stupid roller tricks - YouTube


----------



## The Human G-Nome

I think it's really important to train to your weaknesses because it can be so easy to spend all your time on your strengths. No matter what your power numbers, 75% of the races out there are all about surges and responding to surges. Knowing that to be true, if you're not spending a significant amount of your training on hard jumps, and emulating responding to those types of surges then the rest of your training can end up pretty meaningless. 

As a guy whose responsibility it once was to run a team, strategize for races, and help dictate tactics, I can remember all the times I was sure that some new wunderkind on our team was going to just torch everyone in the next race, but when it came to race day, they were nowhere to be found when it counted. 

I have a teammate who just blows me to pieces in training, no matter the terrain. Be it climbing, sprinting, or just blowing your legs off on the flats. Even though he seems to possess all the attributes that would make for a great crit rider, he almost always fails miserably in the actual race. As a 175 lb guy, his best win was probably 1st place in the 4s in a packed field in a really tough climby race. With his sprint, his overall attributes actually scream crit guy though. When we'd race Masters 1/2/3s together, I'd find myself in the top 10 out of 100, but he'd find himself at the back of the field. Our power numbers, up and down the board, say he crushes me at every duration, 1 sec, 5 sec, 30 sec., 1 minute, 5 minute, etc. 

You are obviously way more of a climber, but I see so many talented riders out there who are just missing that one, super key ingredient that would allow them the points they'd need to Cat up. 



spade2you said:


> It's pretty competitive. I had a 45 minute crit where I was averaging about 4.5w/kg and climbed about 1250 feet in that crit. I was clinging on for dear life before I ultimately couldn't match the climbing pace.
> 
> At the Joe Martin 2.5 mile uphill TT, my ~5.5w/kg ~11 minute effort was barely enough to crack the top 20. I admit that shorter TTs aren't my strong suit, but I was blown away with such a low place with that kind of power. I could have possibly tried to push 6w/kg if I didn't have a road race a few hours later. I sometimes wonder about giving it everything for the ITT, but I recover so poorly when dealing with just a few hours.
> 
> I think my biggest obstacle is that I'm simply not a crit guy and there's only one local race with a nice sustained climb at the end, with everything else usually ending in a bunch sprint.
> 
> With the lack of sustained climbs, I generally focus on time trialing. Even then, my times generally would place better in Cat 3 than Cat 4. It's too hard to upgrade via time trials.
> 
> I can't deny that my luck is generally not very good. I'm usually 1-2 riders behind the split after spending a bunch of time near the front. I've been stuck working during a few really high priority races, only to go home and really stick some impressive power numbers at home.


----------



## spade2you

The Human G-Nome said:


> I think it's really important to train to your weaknesses because it can be so easy to spend all your time on your strengths. No matter what your power numbers, 75% of the races out there are all about surges and responding to surges. Knowing that to be true, if you're not spending a significant amount of your training on hard jumps, and emulating responding to those types of surges then the rest of your training can end up pretty meaningless.
> 
> As a guy whose responsibility it once was to run a team, strategize for races, and help dictate tactics, I can remember all the times I was sure that some new wunderkind on our team was going to just torch everyone in the next race, but when it came to race day, they were nowhere to be found when it counted.
> 
> I have a teammate who just blows me to pieces in training, no matter the terrain. Be it climbing, sprinting, or just blowing your legs off on the flats. Even though he seems to possess all the attributes that would make for a great crit rider, he almost always fails miserably in the actual race. As a 175 lb guy, his best win was probably 1st place in the 4s in a packed field in a really tough climby race. With his sprint, his overall attributes actually scream crit guy though. When we'd race Masters 1/2/3s together, I'd find myself in the top 10 out of 100, but he'd find himself at the back of the field. Our power numbers, up and down the board, say he crushes me at every duration, 1 sec, 5 sec, 30 sec., 1 minute, 5 minute, etc.
> 
> You are obviously way more of a climber, but I see so many talented riders out there who are just missing that one, super key ingredient that would allow them the points they'd need to Cat up.


I'm currently training my shorter power intervals, "sprinting", and my crit efforts. I'm in build 2 at the moment. My sustained climbing intervals are significantly better than last year. 

This early in the year, I haven't really come up with any solid plans at this point. I'm hoping to travel to OR for their uphill time trial championship. Two years ago I tried to head up there but vacation denied by the boss. 

Handling is obviously fairly sketchy in Cat 4, so it becomes a matter of risking crashing when really trying to hold my spot. Tactics can also be just as funky. I don't take many risks because I make my money on Monday.


----------



## The Human G-Nome

I can definitely understand that. When I get a bad sense about a race during the last lap, I don't even bother putting my nose in there anymore. I did Snelling last week, and the run up to the final corner got absurd, and that was parlayed with the terrible pavement. Once I saw two or three just misses that could have taken out 20 guys, I just let the front drift away. Not worth it all to me as I know what it's like to break your arm, wrist, and ribs in a crash. 

This is definitely why I prefer 1/2/3 to 3s though. It tends to be a lot more strung out at the end of the race in the 1/2/3s, and therefore, much safer. The 3s have way too many sideline-to-sideline finishes for my taste by comparison. And I barely remember the 4s, but I do remember enough to know I want no part of a Cat 4 crit unless it's silly technical. 

Anyway, I hope your power intervals start to pay off for you this year. 



spade2you said:


> I'm currently training my shorter power intervals, "sprinting", and my crit efforts. I'm in build 2 at the moment. My sustained climbing intervals are significantly better than last year.
> 
> This early in the year, I haven't really come up with any solid plans at this point. I'm hoping to travel to OR for their uphill time trial championship. Two years ago I tried to head up there but vacation denied by the boss.
> 
> Handling is obviously fairly sketchy in Cat 4, so it becomes a matter of risking crashing when really trying to hold my spot. Tactics can also be just as funky. I don't take many risks because I make my money on Monday.


----------



## Wookiebiker

I think the key to remember here is FTP keeps you "In" the race ... VO2 max helps you "Win" the race.

I know a guy that when he was a few year younger and training all the time had anb FTP of 409 watts (he's about 6'4" tall and race weight was around 205 pounds) ... but his max sprint numbers were only around 1000 watts. He could always stay in the race and was a diesel during the race ... but could never win the races because he had no ability to sprint or hold on for the last 1 - 2 minutes of a race. He also would get blown away on downhills because he had a hard time spinning over 90 - 95 RPM, so while others were spinning a 53x11 at 120 RPM down hill ... he was slowly falling off the back even though he had gravity on his side. Basically a whole lot of slow twitch muscle and almost zero fast twitch.

If you can't drop the pack before the finish line ... you have to be able to beat them at the end, which takes a whole different skill set and power profile. Some people can build it, others just can't due to physical limitations.


----------



## spade2you

Very true. 

Hopefully I get to test out my 30min power to weight this summer.


----------



## Duane Gran

The Human G-Nome said:


> With the watts/kg that most of you Cat 4s are putting out, it's hard to understand why you're still Cat 4s. You must either just completely suck at tactics, have the 15 second power of a sloth, or else be the unluckiest racers ever. Most of you put me to shame, and I'm a 3 in a tough district.


For my part, I've always been candid with others that I have the engine of a cat2 and the race tactics of a cat6. Beyond this, the ability to climb at ~4.5 w/kg is a great thing provided you actually have a mountain top finish. I live in the foothills of the blue ridge mountains, yet there are no races that finish like this. Since I'm 6' tall (1.83m) I project a bit of a surface area so my w/cda is considerably less impressive although I've never had an opportunity to quantify it. Add to this a non-existent sprint (I'm a slow twitcher through and through) and most races don't suit my strengths. That's okay though, because I still enjoy the challenge.


----------



## woodys737

The Human G-Nome said:


> *With the watts/kg that most of you Cat 4s are putting out, it's hard to understand why you're still Cat 4s. You must either just completely suck at tactics, have the 15 second power of a sloth, or else be the unluckiest racers ever. Most of you put me to shame, and I'm a 3 in a tough district.*


Funniest post I've read in a while. Was thinking the same thing. It would be fun to race with some of you guys some time. Should have an RBR get together at a race or two this year...



The Human G-Nome said:


> *I think it's really important to train to your weaknesses* because it can be so easy to spend all your time on your strengths. No matter what your power numbers, 75% of the races out there are all about surges and responding to surges. Knowing that to be true, if you're not spending a significant amount of your training on hard jumps, and emulating responding to those types of surges then the rest of your training can end up pretty meaningless. snip...


True. Which is why (IMHO) most people who think they train, aren't really training. A few of my friends don't understand or don't want to understand this. 



Wookiebiker said:


> *I think the key to remember here is FTP keeps you "In" the race ... VO2 max helps you "Win" the race.*
> 
> snip...


This is an important distinction to understand. I vaguely remember reading an article about 2 pro mountain or cross racers that detailed this distinction. It might have been reposted here and it seems like Alex chimed in talking about T-vent...Anyways, they were similar in weight but had vastly different FTP's yet the lower FTP rider could recover more efficiently from super threshold efforts and therefore remain competitive (depending on the course).


----------



## spade2you

Technically, I might race wookie in OR this summer, provided I get the time off and he decides to do whichever uphill time trial in Aug. We'd be in different categories, but that's the beauty of time trials.


----------



## gus68

> Add to this a non-existent sprint (I'm a slow twitcher through and through) and most races don't suit my strengths. That's okay though, because I still enjoy the challenge.


Yup, same for me.


----------



## seppo17

Weight: 78kg
Avg 20 min power: 322w (recorded 2/9/13)
w/kg: 3.9
cat 3(upgraded in feb), cx2.... 

Pretty much an all-arounder on the roads, decent at everything. Mainly I focus on Cross. I struggled mightly scoring points in the 4's until I learned I had to start my sprint from a long way out. That and the fact that the majority of the "local" racing requires 2+ hrs of driving to get to the race. So I probably only get in 10-12 crit/RR a season.


----------



## The Human G-Nome

Surface area is really interesting to me these days. Mostly, I'm looking at my power numbers and comparing them to my riding partners. Even when I'm putting the hurt on them, mine are mostly lower. In fact, even when they are drafting me in a sprint, mine are still lower. 

This weekend, I got a Strava KOM in one section (only out of 300 riders mind you), but my power for this 1:04 was much less than the next group of people on the list. Similarly, I got a 4th overall out of almost 3 thousand, and same thing.... my numbers are so low by comparison.

This makes me think that a lot of my (very relative) prowess is due to my extremely low position on the bike, and my very small surface area and foot print. I'm not light weight at all at 149 lbs right now (Should be at 144), but I think I have to fight so much less wind than others. Otherwise, it just means that my powertap is garbage. ;-)



Duane Gran said:


> For my part, I've always been candid with others that I have the engine of a cat2 and the race tactics of a cat6. Beyond this, the ability to climb at ~4.5 w/kg is a great thing provided you actually have a mountain top finish. I live in the foothills of the blue ridge mountains, yet there are no races that finish like this. Since I'm 6' tall (1.83m) I project a bit of a surface area so my w/cda is considerably less impressive although I've never had an opportunity to quantify it. Add to this a non-existent sprint (I'm a slow twitcher through and through) and most races don't suit my strengths. That's okay though, because I still enjoy the challenge.


----------



## The Human G-Nome

woodys737 said:


> This is an important distinction to understand. I vaguely remember reading an article about 2 pro mountain or cross racers that detailed this distinction. It might have been reposted here and it seems like Alex chimed in talking about T-vent...Anyways, they were similar in weight but had vastly different FTP's yet the lower FTP rider could recover more efficiently from super threshold efforts and therefore remain competitive (depending on the course).


I think this explains why I am such a good two and three man time trial guy, but such a terrible one man TT guy. I could put in really hard, solid efforts on the front, but I need 10 or 20 seconds to then recover. When I'm doing my intervals, my 55 seconds looks pretty good, and it's very repeatable. When I start hovering toward 2 minutes though, I'm often in trouble. Most of my best results over the years happened in breakaways in that sense, just now solo except for in one instance where I was able to stay away. 

This is the same for rolling terrain. I can put up pretty good power up and over those rollers, and I need that super brief respite on the downhill part to recover, and then I'm good again. I just recover a lot quicker than most even when my overall power numbers are pretty pedestrian. 

Hence, why it's relatively easy for me to jump from one rider's surge to another, remaining at the front of the race and in contention, but difficult (except on finishes ending in a power climb) for me to get any kind of result on something flat, or on something with an extended climb that lasts longer than 2 minutes.


----------



## spade2you

As far as surface area goes, I think this might be part of why I do alright in time trials despite having lower power numbers and not a very aggressive TT posture.


----------



## woodys737

The Human G-Nome said:


> I think this explains why I am such a good two and three man time trial guy, but such a terrible one man TT guy. I could put in really hard, solid efforts on the front, but I need 10 or 20 seconds to then recover. When I'm doing my intervals, my 55 seconds looks pretty good, and it's very repeatable. When I start hovering toward 2 minutes though, I'm often in trouble. Most of my best results over the years happened in breakaways in that sense, just now solo except for in one instance where I was able to stay away.
> 
> This is the same for rolling terrain. I can put up pretty good power up and over those rollers, and I need that super brief respite on the downhill part to recover, and then I'm good again. I just recover a lot quicker than most even when my overall power numbers are pretty pedestrian.
> 
> Hence, why it's relatively easy for me to jump from one rider's surge to another, remaining at the front of the race and in contention, but difficult (except on finishes ending in a power climb) for me to get any kind of result on something flat, or on something with an extended climb that lasts longer than 2 minutes.


I would describe myself in much the same way. My FTP is definitely my weakness so, I end up training it and worrying about it more than any other aspect of the profile. Seems like nearly everyone I know who trains with power has better numbers than I do (w/kg). Yet, performance on the bike just doesn't back up what they say. Maybe they are using normalized power to determine their FTP from a crit or something? I was so baffled last year by this I thought my PM wasn't calibrated correctly! LOL!


----------



## slow.climber

You can get a pretty good estimate by putting in the numbers from a climb into this on line calculator,
Bike Calculator


----------



## kbiker3111

slow.climber said:


> You can get a pretty <s>good</s> *rough* estimate by putting in the numbers from a climb into this on line calculator,
> Bike Calculator


fify


----------



## BassNBrew

Would someone like to give me a suggestion for a power test I'm doing next week? My 20 min number was 264 watts 10 weeks ago. Been riding once a week in a structured studio class and running a good bit over that time (50k, 30k, 26.2 mi run races). Today we finished the class with 3 x 6 min efforts with 3 minutes rest.

Interval 1 - 280 watts at a heart rate 10 bpm below LT.

Interval 2 - 290 watts at a heart rate 5 bpm below LT.

Interval 3 - 333 watts at a heart 3-6 bpm over LT.

I'm pretty confident that my hr would have drifted 5+ bpm higher during those first two intervals given another 5 or so minutes. I suspect my 20 min power to 6 min power ratio is lower than most due to a lack of saddle time. Most of my training outside of this weekly class has been in the zone 1-2 range.

I'm thinking 290 watts for the first 10 min and then going from there would be the best approach, but that may be too conservative.

Not sure if this is helpful information, but I rode a 20 minute interval at 240 watts prior these intervals in mid zone 2. I seemed to have a large power range thru zone 2, but the range thru zone 3 and 4 is small. 

Appreciate any and all suggestions to make this a succesfful test.


----------



## HLS2k6

370w just this week at 79.5 kg. 5 min power is similar at 425w. My sprint numbers, while improving, however, are mediocre to downright dismal. 

Still have never won a Cat 4 race. Would be outrageously happy to win one race & upgrade to Cat 3 by the end of the year. Just gotta get some successful breakaways!


----------



## HLS2k6

370w just this week at 79.5 kg. 5 min power is similar at 425w. My sprint numbers, while improving, however, are mediocre to downright dismal. 

Still have never won a Cat 4 race. Would be outrageously happy to win one race & upgrade to Cat 3 by the end of the year. Just gotta get some successful breakaways!


----------



## Chris96

60min 354w NP sitting at 63kg. 

Peak 60min (282 watts):
Duration: 1:00:10
Work: 1016 kJ
TSS:  108.1 (intensity factor 1.04)
Norm Power:	354
Distance: 39.57 km
Elevation Gain: 706 m
Elevation Loss: 713 m
Grade: -0.0 % (-8 m)
Min	Max	Avg
Power: 0	1212	282 watts
Cadence: 1	135	86 rpm
Speed: 9.3	72.9	39.1 kph
Pace 0:49	6:27	1:32 min/km
Altitude: 125	189	160 m
Crank Torque:	0	174.6 30.9 N-m
Temperature: 16	18	17.1 Celsius


----------



## Undecided

So what was the peak 20 minute power in that hour? Have you tried a 20 minute test? I'm curious as to how it would compare to the NP in that sample. I've had some approximately one hour stretches in small-group breakaways in which my NP was higher (by a few percent) than I was ever able to average for a 20 minute test. With such a big gap between NP and average power in that hour, I'm not sure what I'd assume about CP60 (or CP20). For me, when moving toward and in racing shape, my repeatability for short efforts (which can drive a high NP) improves a lot during the early months of the season, while my CP20 doesn't improve much (which is fine---with "enough" CP20, I'd much rather get some gains on hard, short efforts than devote myself to lifting my CP20 from 5.5 w/kg to 5.7 w/kg).


----------



## Chris96

Peak 20 minute power during the race was 330w. In my most recent 20min test I put out 345w, however this was on a trainer which for me usually results in lower power outputs. I would like to have the chance to do a 20min tt on the road, however it isn't practical where I live.
Andy Coggan states here http://http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/490654/should-i-use-normalized-power-or-average-power-for-determining-ftp that NP for 1 hour and FTP are extremely closely related, even with a large gap between AP and NP.


----------



## woodys737

Undecided said:


> So what was the peak 20 minute power in that hour? Have you tried a 20 minute test? I'm curious as to how it would compare to the NP in that sample. I've had some approximately one hour stretches in small-group breakaways in which my NP was higher (by a few percent) than I was ever able to average for a 20 minute test. With such a big gap between NP and average power in that hour, I'm not sure what I'd assume about CP60 (or CP20). For me, when moving toward and in racing shape, my repeatability for short efforts (which can drive a high NP) improves a lot during the early months of the season, while my CP20 doesn't improve much (which is fine---with "enough" CP20, I'd much rather get some gains on hard, short efforts than devote myself to lifting my CP20 from 5.5 w/kg to 5.7 w/kg).


Wow! I gotta say I'm either genetically f'ed or I'm totally doing it all wrong. A cp20 of 5.5w/kg for me would be 395W or 375 FTP. CP20 at 5.7 w/kg is 410 or FTP of 390W at my weight! That's insane man. I've been killing myself to get close to 5 w/kg. Good lord. What are you guys doing?????????????


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## Andrew L

HLS2k6 said:


> 370w just this week at 79.5 kg. 5 min power is similar at 425w. My sprint numbers, while improving, however, are mediocre to downright dismal.
> 
> Still have never won a Cat 4 race. Would be outrageously happy to win one race & upgrade to Cat 3 by the end of the year. Just gotta get some successful breakaways!


This is not meant to be rude as I just started training with power and really just want to understand more. Based on the power to weight charts you should/could be a Cat 1 with a 20 minute power to weight of 4.65 but you are struggling to win a cat 4 race...are those charts just BS? Based on my 20 minute power I fall into the Cat 5 power but I don't race so I'm not sure how I actually compare. I've also seen other posts with 20 minute power over 5 which would put them in the realm of a domestic pro (they may in fact be one, I don't know). Just trying to understand my 2.8 watt/kg 20 minute power..


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## Ghost234

The chart is BS for the most part. Racing is much more than a power to weight game. In addition unless you live in the mountains, or race there, power to weight won't really have much effect. I live in a pancake flat area, and the strongest riders don't have amazing w/kg but have very high FTP. 

It is very possible to have a w/kg FTP of 5+ and still be a cat 4, it simply depends on the races, your tactics, how others race, and luck. 

Additionally Coggan never tested the various cat 1,2,3,4..., instead he took the highest recorded levels and some amateurs and simply filled in the rest.


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## HLS2k6

That's my 20:00 number, not FTP. I believe I am a strong Cat 4 & that results will come. Yesterday, I broke away solo with 5 miles left & got caught 10 seconds from the line. Yes i finished 30th, but that is not the whole tory. As I get more experienced, I'm hopeful to win a race or two. Big goal for the year is to make it to cat 3.


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## Andrew L

Ghost234 said:


> The chart is BS for the most part. Racing is much more than a power to weight game. In addition unless you live in the mountains, or race there, power to weight won't really have much effect. I live in a pancake flat area, and the strongest riders don't have amazing w/kg but have very high FTP.
> 
> It is very possible to have a w/kg FTP of 5+ and still be a cat 4, it simply depends on the races, your tactics, how others race, and luck.
> 
> Additionally Coggan never tested the various cat 1,2,3,4..., instead he took the highest recorded levels and some amateurs and simply filled in the rest.


Very informative, thanks for the info!!


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## Andrew L

HLS2k6 said:


> That's my 20:00 number, not FTP. I believe I am a strong Cat 4 & that results will come. Yesterday, I broke away solo with 5 miles left & got caught 10 seconds from the line. Yes i finished 30th, but that is not the whole tory. As I get more experienced, I'm hopeful to win a race or two. Big goal for the year is to make it to cat 3.


I hope I didn't offend you in any way. I simply used your example to try to help me understand better.

I've been using this chart and it says 20 minute, should the last column actually be your FTP? I'm just starting to train with power and it is still foreign to me.
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/02/power-to-weight-ratio.html?m=1


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## woodys737

Andrew L said:


> I hope I didn't offend you in any way. I simply used your example to try to help me understand better.
> 
> I've been using this chart and it says 20 minute, should the last column actually be your FTP? I'm just starting to train with power and it is still foreign to me.
> Cozy Beehive: Power to Weight Ratio


Andy I think the 20 minute ref in the cozybeehive is taken from Allen and Coggan's book which references FTP. So take your NP for a 60 minute effort or 5% less of a 20 minute effort for reference. FYI I don't remember where I read it but, I vaguely remember Dr. Coggan writing something to the effect of he wished they had not published the chart as it is taken much too literally. It's a good chart to reference your own changes however.

edit: meaning FTP in Coggan=20 minute column in the cozybeehive chart...


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## DMH2979

I have to agree with woodys on this one. I'm a cat1/masters and after 3 years of structured, hard training just reaching my previous power numbers after 5 years totally off the bike due to injuries. The numbers people list here are much higher than mine but I've been racing for over 15 years so have good tactical sense and know where and when to put out my efforts. 

I think more than pure 20 minute numbers, as others have pointed out, it's the repeatability of these numbers (be it 1, 5, 10, 20 minutes), and knowing when to use the power. I've won a bunch of races (back in the day  in every category in a very hard area (rocky mountains) and I've never seen the numbers people post here. I'd love to have a 5 minute power of 400+, but I'd like it even more if I could repeat 380 15xs with 3 hrs of racing in my legs. That's what these numbers don't show.
So, while it can be a good starting point, the obsession over w/kg (and I've been using a PM for 15 yrs) is, I think, a bit misplaced. All of my coaches have said there are hundreds of things you can do in training before you start to worry about weight (assuming your weight is reasonable, I'm just under 6ft and 70-72 kgs) and it's much better to be well fueled than suffering loss of power by cutting calories. 

I tried that the first year I was a 2 and did not finish a race (also now learning most of the pro teams at national calendar races had their own "special program" but I digress). I then focused on nutrition and fueling and gained 10lbs and got my cat 1 upgrade. So weight and w/kgs obsessed be ware! 

Just my own personal experience. Everyone is different!


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## serious

DMH2979: *I then focused on nutrition and fueling and gained 10lbs and got my cat 1 upgrade. So weight and w/kgs obsessed be ware! *

But clearly you are also focusing on W/Kg.  It just so happens that you had to gain weight to improve your power to weight ratio.


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## Andrew L

Thanks for all of your answers, very helpful. Sorry to jack the thread!


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## new2rd

Interesting hearing everyone talk about their numbers. In regards to racing not counting crits, there's a neccessary power requirement to stay in the group, depending on the size, and pace the power required varies drastically. Try to stay 15 back in a pack of 35-40 and you might be able to survive maintaining 200 watts while the pace setters are using 350 or more... turn this into a tail wind with a strong pace and the group gets strung out requiring a lot more work for everyone especially if an accordian effect takes place. So a person better positioned near the front will have to respond to accelerations, but decreases the risks of large gaps forming and getting dropped. Then if you survive towards the end (be ready for non-sprinters to push the pace towards the end to try and get away), then you need a good 5-10 second power probably after a few minutes of VO2 efforts. 

What I'm getting at is there's more than one requirement to win a race. Sure, someone with a 20 min power of 350 is probably going to survive to the end a bit easier than someone with 250 watts. 2 min or 5 min numbers are great, but most people measure those all out while in a race, the competition isn't going to softpedal for 2 min for you to recover. Then all the work can be thrown out at the end when you aren't positioned well and someone blows by you in the last few seconds even though your 1300 watt sprint is better.


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