# So much for complete transparency



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

It appears that Armstrong's much discussed internal testing program is so far nothing more then a press conference. 
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2008-11-30-armstrong-anti-doping-plan_N.htm

One of the key parts of any internal testing program is setting baseline figures.Especially for an athlete like Armstrong who has attributed his amazing ability to raise his Hct from 41 to 48.5 to sleeping in an oxygen tent. This level of increase has never come close to being replicated in any study.

Avoiding setting baselines, Catlin falling for the "He is busy" excuse, and not sharing the figures like promised is far from "complete transparency".....but it really will does not matter as many fans will only remember the press release, and ignore reality.


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

I like the part where they ride their bikes.


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

I wondered how this was going to work out in practice. Even I didn't expect to see problems this early. What a ******* joke.
And yes BigPinkt, I thought the exact same thing in relation to the press release. That's all any of his fans will remember. And for the most part, the media won't follow up on this story either. One would think that Ferrari is getting a big say on when Catlin gets to visit. 
Once again, Lance has used the media to great effect - and people who were undecided on whether he was clean or not, will say, 'he had Don Catlin following him around, there's no way he could've escaped detection.'


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Oh come on. You guys are just trying to find fault. The intention to do a program with Catlin was announced on Sep. 26, ~60 days ago. AFIK Catlin had no such program prior to that time, requiring that he put in place all the administration to know LA's whereabouts (use the UCI scheme or their own?), have staff available to do the checks, mechanisms for identification and safe transport of the samples, on-line posting of the results, long-term storage regime, etc. At least one company has gone under trying to do this kind of thing.

"Catlin said that the actual program is still taking shape. "[Lance] has agreed to a couple of a few very fundamental points. One is his data, like T/E ratio and all that kind of stuff that a doping control is allowed to do will be on the web, so you can see it. 'Ah, your T/E ration changed today, what happened?' Like to see if he is taking EPO – all the actors to make it a very public campaign."

"There is nothing that he has asked [for] nor will I accept - it [would be] out of bounds." " http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2008/armstrong_interbike08

They have now said the scheme will be up and running by the TdU. If they fail at that you will have a legitimate beef. Until then LA is participating in the required UCI passport program, so it's not like he's hiding.

Lighten up a little.

JSR


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

JSR, I agree. These things can take some time, especially when you want to avoid them.

No matter the timing it is still concerning that Catlin is still "Negotiating"....isn't his job to be independent and set the rules?


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

bigpinkt said:


> These things can take some time, especially when you want to avoid them.


Ok, point taken! 



bigpinkt said:


> No matter the timing it is still concerning that Catlin is still "Negotiating"....isn't his job to be independent and set the rules?


The way I read it, he had put a proposal in front of LA two weeks ago, and he was waiting for a response. One presumes there may be details regarding rider availablility for testing or some such that might make perfect sense to Catlin, but be unworkable froom LA's perspective.

It's also fair to point out that once the details are agreed, Catlin will then have to do the work of putting all the mechanisms in place. No small task given the holiday period.

We'll see what we will see.

JSR


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

JSR said:


> Oh come on. They have now said the scheme will be up and running by the TdU. If they fail at that you will have a legitimate beef.
> 
> 
> JSR


By Down Under?? He was already jacked at Leadville and Gruene! Lance's partner John Korioth had an normalized power of 357!! Thats an FTP of over 360 watts on a 42-year old cat 2. He would BREAK the masters hour TT record with that. He was jacked for that. Full LiveStrong gear provided when your hanging out with Pharmstrong:thumbsup: 

I'm just gonna get my cat 2 a** off the couch and put 3 minutes into Patrick Mccarty !!!


"John averaged 340watts and had a normalized power reading of 357watts, which makes you wonder how many watts Lance was pushing given that John rode the majority of the race in Lance’s slipstream." :idea: 

And the power data could have been messed up to too make them look slower.... 3 minutes up on Patrick.:mad2:


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

F1nut said:


> And the power data could have been messed up to too make them look slower.... 3 minutes up on Patrick.:mad2:


I think that's the data from the Dealy Plaza TT. If you could also find the numbers for the man on the grassy knoll, that would be awesome!

JSR


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

JSR said:


> I think that's the data from the Dealy Plaza TT. If you could also find the numbers for the man on the grassy knoll, that would be awesome!
> 
> JSR


LOL, it was a 2-man TT. Had a climb in there, kicker hill or two.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

At the press conference Armstrong was very clear."I will do whatever Catlin asks me to" would make himself available for testing "whenever and wherever" Now this turns to a "negotiation". The only source for the "Two Weeks" figure is Lance. Given his inability to remember numbers I would say this time frame is questionable at best.


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## papisimo9807 (May 7, 2007)

*Good Work*

It will be interesting to see how all this "plays" out in the year that follows. 
Good work BPT. There was quite a bit of hoopla surrounding the independent testing program LA was implementing. 
To your credit, it does appear that that the tone of the monitoring program LA implemented has changed drastically.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

I read the article and this part jumped right out of the screen.

"Armstrong came out of retirement to ride for Astana, which was scheduled to begin its preseason camp Sunday in Tenerife, in the Canary Islands."

Doesn't one Dr. Eufemio Fuentes live there?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

MG537 said:


> I read the article and this part jumped right out of the screen.
> 
> "Armstrong came out of retirement to ride for Astana, which was scheduled to begin its preseason camp Sunday in Tenerife, in the Canary Islands."
> 
> Doesn't one Dr. Eufemio Fuentes live there?


IIRC, supposedly it is where his main office was (is) located, which was never raided in OP. But Armstrong was a Ferrari man, who also likes the islands, but I can't remember ever seeing anything linking Ferrarri and Fuentes. The rumours seem to have always been that Armstrong & co. got their oil changed by a group run by ex-ONCE docs.


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

Maby Astana is using the whole system. Their trying to intimidate the other teams by making doping references obvious and public. Certainly they paid their way into the Tour. Astana needs the exposure. They have lots of money so why not use everyone instead of drawing lines....


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

*Lance in Ireland*

Couldn't be ars-ed starting a new thread...this is only to people such as BigPinkt, F1Nut, Serbski, Exciton and Phillipec...
There's talk of Lance coming to Ireland next year for the Irish Tour. Can anyone think of an appropriate way for me to show my displeasure. The stage starts are very open and accessible in Ireland. 
A sign or something? People will say that it makes not one jot of a difference, but I really want to show some solidarity here. I can also safely say that I will at the very least get some very dirty looks, and I will be completely alone. But to hell with it....


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

Digger28 said:


> , and I will be completely alone. But to hell with it....



I would.... Get a big sign, billboard sized. Shaped like Kazakhstan. Painted in the colors of the Astana flag.... A big syringe, injecting into the billboard. :idea: 


You dont have to even make it... INquire it to one of the contacts at The City of Astana Contacts

Dont... Tell them about it, just ask if you can show your support and you want a big, vehicle of sorts to do it.

Then vandalize the hell out of it. :thumbsup:


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/dec08/dec08news2

On September 25th Lance had a press conference announcing that he would be working with Don Catlin. There would be "complete transparency" and Catlin could test him any time, anywhere, with any test. 74 days later and they are still negotiating. 

Yet 24 days since ACE's surprise shutting down of business both Garmin and Columbia were able to evaluate their various options, negotiate agreements, and sign contracts with Catlin. This is two teams of 30 riders, not just one rider who clearly believes the press release is more important then reality.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

bigpinkt said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/dec08/dec08news2
> 
> On September 25th Lance had a press conference announcing that he would be working with Don Catlin. There would be "complete transparency" and Catlin could test him any time, anywhere, with any test. 74 days later and they are still negotiating.
> 
> Yet 24 days since ACE's surprise shutting down of business both Garmin and Columbia were able to evaluate their various options, negotiate agreements, and sign contracts with Catlin. This is two teams of 30 riders, not just one rider who clearly believes the press release is more important then reality.


What I don't get is even if the details haven't been worked out, why could they not have been taking blood and urine samples since the beginning?

It's now not outside the realm of possiblity that any baseline established isn't a true "clean" baseline. I wish there was some faith that the WADA-related tests would establish an earlier baseline, but as yet that whole system is still a work in progress apparently.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> What I don't get is even if the details haven't been worked out, why could they not have been taking blood and urine samples since the beginning?
> 
> It's now not outside the realm of possiblity that any baseline established isn't a true "clean" baseline. I wish there was some faith that the WADA-related tests would establish an earlier baseline, but as yet that whole system is still a work in progress apparently.


Isn't he currently subject to surprise tests by WADA? Why haven't they hit it up for some blood and urine yet? 

Even if he isn't officially on the books and subject to their tests, why doesn't WADA hit him anyway? Can he possibly refuse a voluntary test, without looking pretty stupid?


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Isn't he currently subject to surprise tests by WADA? Why haven't they hit it up for some blood and urine yet?
> 
> Even if he isn't officially on the books and subject to their tests, why doesn't WADA hit him anyway? Can he possibly refuse a voluntary test, without looking pretty stupid?


He has been subject to and taking test from USADA and the UCI. The passport is a UCI project so no surprise it is a mess. Supposedly they do not share info from the tests so drawing an accurate baseline will be a challenge. Given Armstrong's recent claim that his Hct varies from 39 to 48 an off season baseline would be important


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

It was obvious from the press conference where he was already trumpeting his testing as 'the best' that there was some serious bull$hitting going on.

It's ridiculous that Caitlin would be negotiating. Caitlin should come up with a plan, specifying the minimum that need be done to carry his name and also the amount of testing he would recommend (more than minimum). Let everyone see if Lance is picking the minimum or the blue-ribbon plan from Caitlin. That would be "complete transparency."


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

mohair_chair said:


> Isn't he currently subject to surprise tests by WADA? Why haven't they hit it up for some blood and urine yet?


I think he's already been hit up by them for OOC tests more times since coming out of retirement than he was subjected to in entire years prior to his retirement. The problem remains the UCI biopassport program has yet to be shown to have any teeth, whatsoever!

After not pushing for retesting of the Giro samples for CERA or any other samples for that matter, the UCI commitment to oust dopers is still far from 100%.


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

The Ability to Measure Total Blood Volume has been here since 1972

Current Testing Is controlled on Site By UCI, Urine and Blood samples, Thats it 



_"Another test aims to measure the total haemoglobin. With this method, athletes inhale a small amount of carbon monoxide before and after a competition. The odourless gas is able to tie itself more than 200 times better to the red blood cells than oxygen. By measuring the percentage of carbon monoxide bound to the haemoglobin on different time points, the researchers are able to calculate the precise amount of total haemoglobin and thereby get an indication of whether an athlete has been manipulating with his own blood."_


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

JSR said:


> Ok, point taken!
> 
> The way I read it, he had put a proposal in front of LA two weeks ago, and he was waiting for a response. One presumes there may be details regarding rider availablility for testing or some such that might make perfect sense to Catlin, but be unworkable froom LA's perspective.
> 
> ...


Ah mate, you'll spoil the synergy if you refuse to see the conspiracy behind every tree. 

You may be pulled for trying to inject rational thought on the dope forum! After all, these boys are graduates of the Rosie O'donnell college of deductive reasoning.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

If LA ever allows CO testing like that I'll be stunned. It's hard to believe but the whole testing program is an even bigger sham than I thought it would be. There was absolutely nothing to stop samples from being taken and working out the protocol later. Nothing except LA that is.

Wonder what Lemond is thinking at this point?


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

terzo rene said:


> If LA ever allows CO testing like that I'll be stunned. It's hard to believe but the whole testing program is an even bigger sham than I thought it would be. There was absolutely nothing to stop samples from being taken and working out the protocol later. Nothing except LA that is.
> 
> Wonder what Lemond is thinking at this point?


Greg, I vaguely remember saying, has washed his hands of the sport, after Patrice Clerc got fired. To be fair to Greg, I don't blame him in the slightest. Frank Schleck getting off, Ivan Basso at the Giro presentation. 
Paul Kimmage, in his updated version of Rough Ride, wanted to write a 10,000 word Chapter on how Cycling got the champion it deserved in Lance Armstrong. He was right. I've given up completely. The Tour de France organisers themselves are making a genuine attempt, but the UCI, forget about it. Karma is a bit** though.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/ciclismo/es/desarrollo/1188613.html

Apparently Catlin sent a tester down to the Canaries to test Armstrong and Armstrong did not show for the test. 

The title of the article "Armstrong flees from an antidoping control". It appears to quote Catlin saying it was "bad for him" referring to Armstrong.


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

_Es por eso que Dan Catlin considera que es "malo para él" que no se presente a este tipo de pruebas. "Queremos hacer las pruebas y estamos negociando para llevarlas a cabo". Lo que parece claro es que la vuelta del siete veces campeón del Tour de Francia será vista con lupa por los aficionados y, sobre todo, desde el punto de vista de los 'vampiros'._

I dont speak spanish but it seems Lance and ASTANA had their doping doctors on the island to advise when they could be tested. I'm assuming Lance is trying to train really hard, jacked in order to beef up his aerobic memory. 

Maby they are worried that the blood testing will test late right before the start of the stages next year and Lance wont be able to get his heamotocrit above 50. If he cant, he wont win anything. Lance needs to be totaly jacked to do well because he's a good responder to a high Heamotocrit. Thats his main talent anyways.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Aren't all those ex-ONCE docs now at, um, Astana - jeez, it's just one big happy family...

A clear translation of the article here:

Armstrong flees from an antidoping control 

Astana started their preparation this Sunday in Tenerife for the 2009 season with the presence of its principal stars, Contador and Armstrong. The American is newsworthy because he didn’t appear at a doping control which had been arranged by his personal investigator, Dan Catlin. 

.The cyclist himself had contracted the services of Catlin tp prepare for his return to competition after three years of professional inactivity. Both had a basic agreement for a programme of antidoping tests with the compromise of not making the results public. The data would not be able to be made public at Armstrong’s request. 

Catlin gave the assurance that the cyclist has already submitted to the antidoping controls of the US and the UCI, but he didn’t appear for the tests of his personal investigator. It’s this type of news which has always cast doubt on the real capacity of Lance to achieve his exploits. 

This is why Dan Catlin considers that it is ‘bad for him’ that he didnn’t present himself for these sorts of test. ‘We want to do the tests and we are negotiating for them to be carried out’. What appears clear is that the return on the seven times champion of the Tour will be studied with a magnifying glass by the fans and, above all, from the point of view of the ‘vampires.’ 

Also http://eurosport.yahoo.com/19122008/58/drugs-testers-shadowing-armstrong.html

But Don Draper is on twitter (sure that should have an a not an i) - remember, kids, not everyonw on the Internet is a 'real' person or is telling the truth...


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Bianchigirl said:


> Also http://eurosport.yahoo.com/19122008/58/drugs-testers-shadowing-armstrong.html
> 
> But Don Draper is on twitter (sure that should have an a not an i) - remember, kids, not everyonw on the Internet is a 'real' person or is telling the truth...


Don Draper :lol: 

Considering in the past he would repeat over and over the lie that he was "The worlds most tested athlete" when he was taking only 1-2 OOC's a year the possiblity of his 11 number being true is low. 

It would be interesting to see if these are WADA. UCI, or ASO tests as they do not share their information and WADA cannot sanction based on large variances in biomarkers.

I wonder how correct the Marca article is? If looks like a modified version of the AP article. Either way it does not look good. Avoiding tests or three months later avoiding following thru on his commitment to use Catlin and post his numbers on the web.


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

The ASO doesnt run their own tests really... 

What they need are people like Ashenden, Gore, Sharpe, and Martin to run the tests, these physiologists are not corrupted......

In a normal Tour de France or Paris-Nice, the UCI takes the samples, decides when to collect the samples, and acts completely as the chain of custody transport to WADA labs... So, the Independent scientists at WADA have no control over the samples they revieve from the union cycliste international....

The UCI can basically collect samples at the right time to turn a blind eye.... And even if the WADA lab finds a positive the UCI decides what to do... WADA can only say:, this sample is positve or this one is negative.... The UCI can basically say, F- it were not santioning if we dont want to.


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## Aquamarinos (Mar 27, 2008)

Bullshit as usual, big....

The amount of crap you post is truly unbelievable!


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

Yep Aqua... And Contadoper will still likely get his ass kicked by Basso. ahahahaha 

Basso is a great guy, very professional. And... He has a LOT of natural talent. I bet if Basso road the tour clean, he could still do top 15... His VO2 max un-doped is 88.

Ivan the terrible was his name as a young junior... He never lost a race. Very similar to LeMond.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Aquamarinos said:


> Bullshit as usual, big....
> 
> The amount of crap you post is truly unbelievable!


Instead of simply slinging an insult the correct response would be to point out what it is that I have posted that you disagree with then post some evidence to support your claim. It is pretty simple. Resorting to insults does nothing to enhance your position and only serves to make you look foolish.


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

Aside from the amount of time it is taking for Catlin to set up a procedure which Lance is happy with, and the supposed miss test, do people not realise the blatant lie which has already been shown here. He said at that press conference, that all results would be available to the internet and the general public. Now they're not available.
Bigpinkt made a very good point here about two weeks ago. Garmin and Columbia have a full roster of riders to be tested by Don, and they had NO trouble in organising the testing. Lance is on his own, and a compromise still has not been reached. The majority of Lances' fans are not hardcore cycling supporters anyway. So they will have seen the orginal news conference, and will not have come across any information about the difficulties experienced by Don. So, in essence, Lance will, yet again, have won the PR war. A bit like the article in the Guardian a few weeks ago. You have the Sunday Times, Le Monde, and L'Equipe derided as tabloid thrash, yet the Guardian piece is seen as some kind of institution of fine journalism. Why? Because it paints Lance in a positive light.


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

Digger28 said:


> Now they're not available.
> Bigpinkt made a very good point here about two weeks ago. Garmin and Columbia have a full roster of riders to be tested by Don, and they had NO trouble in organising the testing. Lance is on his own, and a compromise still has not been reached. .


Garmin/Slipstream doesnt reveal the test results of ALL their riders, or in the last couple of years ANYof their riders.

If the testing results are made public, everyone and their dog will be looking at the test results. I would be VERY curious to know if Lance is getting back the full test results himself or not. If the results are made known to anyone besides Catlin and his staff, *everyone* will eventually know including Dr. Ferrari.:thumbsup: 

IF there is positives, Catlin can do no sanctioning.

But..... If Catlin time releases the results; then Dr. Ferrari will not know if Lance is testing positive or not. So Lance and Ferrari will be running blind through the WADA testing as far as steroids go. My guess is.... Lance was using steroids at the camp to recover quicker and gain ground, and Catlin easily predicted this. And.... I think all the tests Lance has been doing lately, are bio-passport controls, from the UCI, not WADA. So, basically the only tests Lance has gone through are hormone levels, not actual drug tests. The only actual drug test attempted, was Catlin's attempt......

Based on the fact that Lance ran from Catlin's testing officer; shows that things are not how Lance thought they would be.

And lets not forget..... Lance has use exemption for cortisone, and he has use exemption for testosterone :mad2: , because he only has 1 ball.....



But.... The T/E is basically water under the bridge yo. Lance will try to dope with his own blood during the races like he did before. If he can transfuse before the stages after blood-testing, he will do really well like he did before. Lance is a really good responder to a high heamotocrit. Catlin can stop Lance from using steroids to some degree, but he cant stop Lance from doping with his own blood. 90% of the performance gains are from blood-doping. Thats why LeMond could do so well before EPO.

And I could be wrong about Catlin, he could be corrupt:mad2: 

I dont believe LeMond believes Catlin is crooked, and LeMond seems to know this stuff inside out. That doesnt mean sh** though. The meeting LeMond had with Catlin could have been LeMond trying to convince Catlin to do the right thing. Only LeMond knows for sure.


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

And.... The whole deal with Ferrari, Fuentes, Chechini, and the others is suspicious. They know whats detectable and whats not for *exactly* how long. :mad2: They must have contacts inside WADA.................. :cryin: Conconi worked with WADA for crying out loud. I cant see Ferrari running a practive drug testing Lab himself. :aureola: He's got people on the inside...

And the fact that Fuentes' Clinic on that Canary island has never EVER been raided by police shows me that something is crooked at the very top in Spain. Contadoper was in Puerto, and got off.... Contadoper's parents who I believe work with the Spanish Civil Guard, might be the keys. But... They are VERY powerful people indeed. It would be difficult to take them down....


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

F1nut said:


> They must have contacts inside WADA.................. :cryin: Conconi worked with WADA for crying out loud. I cant see Ferrari running a practive drug testing Lab himself. :aureola: He's got people on the inside...


Conconi actually worked worked for CONI (Italian Olympic committee) not WADA. He "worked" on a test for EPO.....while at the same time he was giving EPO to all of his riders. From most accounts he has seen the error of his ways. He is very critical of his former pupil Ferrari saying that he chased the money and left his ethics behind. 

As for contacts within WADA, that would be tough.....but USADA, maybe. As Mohair pointed out the Nationalism WADA was supposed to replace was only momentarily suspended.


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> Conconi actually worked worked for CONI (Italian Olympic committee) .


Yeah, WADA didnt exist yet then.

Quote from Wikipedia( It is Wiki but its _funny_  )

"_At the Winter Olympics in 1993/94 in Lillehammer, Conconi gave a talk to members of the International Olympic Committee and informed them about his work on an EPO test. He described how he had carried out controlled experiments with 23 amateur triathletes and other athletes with EPO treatments but that he had not come up with a test to detect EPO use. The details of Conconi's 23 amateur athletes were later discovered by police after a raid at the University of Ferrara and that there were no 23 amateurs but elite professionals, six of which were from the Carrera cycling team.[_12]"


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

IF you have any doubts about LeMond, read This diary Entry from Ferrari


*A LeMond encounter* by Michele Ferrari

_I still clearly remember my very brief encounter with Greg LeMond in the January of 1994 in Encinitas, close to San Diego, CA.

We were visiting a popular and well furnished cycling shop called Nytro, and Greg was there too, big and fat as so often happened in the last years of his career.

We introduced ourselves and he did show me an SRM power meter mounted on his bike. I objected that I still preferred to rely on heart rate for the training programs of my athletes, essentially because the latter allowed the evaluation of the so-called 'carico interno' (internal loading) of work that they were subjected to.

In fact, watt measuring gives a rather absolute evaluation, not considering the fluctuations in condition of the athlete: the same load of *400 watts* may change 'meaning' from day to day, according to status of fatigue in the rider.

Today, more than 10 years later, I still tend to evaluate with much prudence all the numbers we get from computers, always integrating them with the feelings and the instinct of the athlete.

And this still continues to make the difference._

Yeah We Know what F- makes the difference you bastard.


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## Exciton (Aug 8, 2008)

F1nut said:


> And the fact that Fuentes' Clinic on that Canary island has never EVER been raided by police shows me that something is crooked at the very top in Spain. Contadoper was in Puerto, and got off.... Contadoper's parents who I believe work with the Spanish Civil Guard, might be the keys. But... They are VERY powerful people indeed. It would be difficult to take them down....


I also believe that there is a fair amount of corruption involved here.
But even if that was not the case it might be hard to catch the dopers. Check out this link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3468895&type=story
which describes a recent Danish study on the efficiency of EPO testing.

The recent success with catching CERA dopers does not mean much in the big picture. There are still far too many ways to dope and too much uncertainty in the testing procedures. So Pharmstrong is likely to get away with it once again ...

F1nut> you mentioned Basso above. You can check his power curve here.: http://www.mapeisport.it/public/IvanBasso/endurancee.pdf
-- that guy can really kick some butt going uphill!


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

Exciton said:


> The recent success with catching CERA dopers does not mean much in the big picture. There are still far too many ways to dope and too much uncertainty in the testing procedures. So Pharmstrong is likely to get away with it once again ...
> 
> F1nut> you mentioned Basso above. You can check his power curve here.: http://www.mapeisport.it/public/IvanBasso/endurancee.pdf
> -- that guy can really kick some butt going uphill!


Yeah, heamotocrit test them all on the start line. Get blood samples late so they cant transfuse their own blood. The CERA was for hiding the blood transfusions, not to dope with. They were idiots, they must have thought they had regular EPO.  

Basso continues to amaze me, he was certainly jacked for both of those tests. He basically held 400 watts for an hour than increased it to 530 increments in the last 25 minutes. I bet his FTP was about 475 for that. His Peak power was 530.... There's gonna be a lot of :cryin: from the 20+Million dollar Mafia goons from ASTANA if Basso is able to return copletely jacked like that. If I remember correctly, Ivan weighs in at about 150 pounds so thats 68kg. Thats 6.9 watts per Kilo at just FTP. At lactate threshold, maby he could get up to what Chicken had before he got kicked out. 

I read on La Gazetta Ivan's VO2 max test from like November when He'd been on the couch. He did 83, presumibly un-doped and out of shape. Thats higher than Pharmstrong EVER got up to in any lab test. Thats deceiving though because the the bio-passport BS, they have to constantly jack slightly and keep heamotocrit at 49.9. 

Surely with that  , thats like blowing Pharmstrong to pieces with a hydrogen bomb. :thumbsup: 

Hopefully the Tours wont be corrupt and manipulate the results by letting Team KAZAKHSTAN jack higher.:mad2: I think if the Tour was raced totally clean, Basso might still win. But there's guys out there with natural VO2 maxes in the low 90's so who F- knows for sure.

Certainly a clean Tour de France would be much, much better entertainment and true human drama and a display of natural talent and not Dr. Enzo, and Dr. Diablo having an arms race. :thumbsup:


----------



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

4 months since the press conference and still no deal.

Maybe this is why
http://www.vagazette.com/la-sp-hgh11-2008nov11,0,7671762.story


----------



## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

Wow!


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

bigpinkt said:


> 4 months since the press conference and still no deal.
> 
> Maybe this is why
> http://www.vagazette.com/la-sp-hgh11-2008nov11,0,7671762.story


Sweet.


----------



## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Haha!


----------



## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> 4 months since the press conference and still no deal.
> 
> Maybe this is why
> http://www.vagazette.com/la-sp-hgh11-2008nov11,0,7671762.story


I mean in all seriousness, how long more can Lance conceivably drag these 'negotiations' on for. At this rate, he'll have done a number of races before he's been tested by Catlin. 
And according to Victor Conte and the BALCO case, the majority of the doping done, when it is done, is done in pre-season.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Five months after the press conference the first test is performed. Guess off season baselines are not important in Catlin's program?

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-...ck-if-i-can-says-armstrong-20090117-7jik.html


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Boy, talk about getting in just under the wire. And now we know, because Lance tells us "... it is the most comprehensive anti-doping plan in the history of sport,".

On a related note, Catlin really needs to work on his web site. There is no news there about LA, Garmin, or Columbia. What are the programs? Where and when will the results be posted? What information is being shared between UCI, WADA, and Catlin? As the acknowledged leader in anti-doping activity in America, he sure doesn't say much.

JSR


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

JSR said:


> Boy, talk about getting in just under the wire. And now we know, because Lance tells us "... it is the most comprehensive anti-doping plan in the history of sport,".
> 
> 
> JSR


Yeah people will buy this line, just like they swallow up the bullsh** about him being the most tested athlete in history.


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## papisimo9807 (May 7, 2007)

Just trying to keep this fresh. Look at the date of BPT's post, the whole circus surrounding the "transparency". To the casual cycling (non)fan all that will be remembered is that huge press conference. Nice tactics.
How long did it actually take for them to come up with an actual testing program?


----------



## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

bigpinkt said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/dec08/dec08news2
> 
> On September 25th Lance had a press conference announcing that he would be working with Don Catlin. There would be "complete transparency" and Catlin could test him any time, anywhere, with any test. 74 days later and they are still negotiating.
> 
> Yet 24 days since ACE's surprise shutting down of business both Garmin and Columbia were able to evaluate their various options, negotiate agreements, and sign contracts with Catlin. This is two teams of 30 riders, not just one rider who clearly believes the press release is more important then reality.



125,126......


----------



## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Lance was visited by the anti-doping controls for the 15th time today. Surely that counts for something with you people? (personally i think it should be the only thing that counts: the opinion of the official testers.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

pacificaslim said:


> Lance was visited by the anti-doping controls for the 15th time today. Surely that counts for something with you people? (personally i think it should be the only thing that counts: the opinion of the official testers.


What? You're simply going to overlook the "facts" picked up in the beauty salons and tabloids and regurgitated here! Next you'll be trying to suggest that anonymous posters on the internet may not be the best source of truth!


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> What? You're simply going to overlook the "facts" picked up in the beauty salons and tabloids and regurgitated here! Next you'll be trying to suggest that anonymous posters on the internet may not be the best source of truth!


You do realize that if all you do is come here to blindly throw rocks that it only reinforces the fact that you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation?

Despite all his claims at the Las Vegas press conference it took over 5 months for the first test from Catlin to happen, last week in Australia. One of the key parts of any in house testing program is setting an off season baseline. This is especially important in a rider like Armstrong who claims the magical ability to increase his Hct from 39 to 48.5. The 5 month delay insured that Catlin would not have a real baseline to work from.

Funny how it took Garmin and Columbia less then 3 weeks to come to an agreement with Catlin to test almost 60 Athletes but Armstrong takes 5 months?


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

bigpinkt said:


> Despite all his claims at the Las Vegas press conference it took over 5 months for the first test from Catlin to happen, last week in Australia.


 I'm a fanboy, but I find this suspicious, too. It is also extremely frustrating that the details of the plan are still not clear. What, exactly, is being tested? Where will the results be posted? How does Catlin interact with WADA and UCI, and to what extent?



bigpinkt said:


> Funny how it took Garmin and Columbia less then 3 weeks to come to an agreement with Catlin to test almost 60 Athletes but Armstrong takes 5 months?


I'm less critical of these facts than you, 't. Before engaging Armstrong there was no plan by Catlin to do this kind of testing. When Garmin and Columbia engaged there had already been several months of planning (one presumes). The Garmin and Columbia agreements got a lot of fanfare, but what is the exact nature of those agreements? Once again, the details are lacking. It's not clear to me that any testing has been done yet.

JSR


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> What? You're simply going to overlook the "facts" picked up in the beauty salons and tabloids and regurgitated here! Next you'll be trying to suggest that anonymous posters on the internet may not be the best source of truth!


The poster's may be anonymous but the dozens of links to media sources and major newspapers and court cases with documents on the official record most certainly are not. I simply can't see how anyone with an open mind could view the information posted in the "what all the Lance Haters" thread and not see that Lance used PED's or took transfusions.

Also, for the record, I am not a hater. I admire the guy for other reasons... but the fact is he and nearly every other winner fromt hat ERA used PED"s about 60% of them have ben caught....

Rant over...


----------



## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

JSR said:


> I'm a fanboy, but I find this suspicious, too. It is also extremely frustrating that the details of the plan are still not clear. What, exactly, is being tested? Where will the results be posted? How does Catlin interact with WADA and UCI, and to what extent?
> 
> I'm less critical of these facts than you, 't. Before engaging Armstrong there was no plan by Catlin to do this kind of testing. When Garmin and Columbia engaged there had already been several months of planning (one presumes). The Garmin and Columbia agreements got a lot of fanfare, but what is the exact nature of those agreements? Once again, the details are lacking. It's not clear to me that any testing has been done yet.
> 
> JSR


Agreements? Planning?

WTF? He could have given vials of blood and peed in a cup the day he made the announcement.. How long does it take to do an HCT? They could have taken the blood at the beginning of the first press conference and had the results by the end. The blood is spun in a centrifuge for like 5 minutes and the calculation is made.

Gimme a f&cking break.


----------



## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Old_school_nik said:


> The poster's may be anonymous but the dozens of links to media sources and major newspapers and court cases with documents on the official record most certainly are not. I simply can't see how anyone with an open mind could view the information posted in the "what all the Lance Haters" thread and not see that Lance used PED's or took transfusions.
> 
> Also, for the record, I am not a hater. I admire the guy for other reasons... but the fact is he and nearly every other winner fromt hat ERA used PED"s about 60% of them have ben caught....
> 
> Rant over...


Do you hate America too?


----------



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

JSR said:


> I'm a fanboy, but I find this suspicious, too. It is also extremely frustrating that the details of the plan are still not clear. What, exactly, is being tested? Where will the results be posted? How does Catlin interact with WADA and UCI, and to what extent?
> 
> I'm less critical of these facts than you, 't. Before engaging Armstrong there was no plan by Catlin to do this kind of testing. When Garmin and Columbia engaged there had already been several months of planning (one presumes). The Garmin and Columbia agreements got a lot of fanfare, but what is the exact nature of those agreements? Once again, the details are lacking. It's not clear to me that any testing has been done yet.
> 
> JSR


When Garmin and Columbia had to look for other companies when ACE went out of business Lance had already been "Negotiating" with Catlin for 6 weeks. Within 3 weeks Garmin and Columbia had a deal with Catlin....it took Lance 5 months. 

Little of what Armstrong announced in Las Vegas has turned out to be true. Perhaps the best example is the "I will not take a salary" then takes $1,000,000 to appear at the Tour Down Under.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bigpinkt said:


> When Garmin and Columbia had to look for other companies when ACE went out of business Lance had already been "Negotiating" with Catlin for 6 weeks. Within 3 weeks Garmin and Columbia had a deal with Catlin....it took Lance 5 months.
> 
> Little of what Armstrong announced in Las Vegas has turned out to be true. Perhaps the best example is the "I will not take a salary" then takes $1,000,000 to appear at the Tour Down Under.


well, give the man a break, he was busy making sure Astanas internal controls would not include him and thus did not have the time to sort things out with Catlin


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

lookrider said:


> WTF? He could have given vials of blood and peed in a cup the day he made the announcement.. How long does it take to do an HCT? They could have taken the blood at the beginning of the first press conference and had the results by the end. The blood is spun in a centrifuge for like 5 minutes and the calculation is made.


Ok, sure, he could have peed in jar right there. I agree that the whole thing has taken way too long.

But the plan (for which planning is required) is not only to test the fluids, but to keep them for years in order to offer retrospective testing. The plan is also to acquire fluids at any time, at any place. For that there must be an infrastructure of qualified pee takers, defined transportation protocol, arrangements with local labs for timely testing, and proper storage facility set up. 

These are all Catlin's responsibility to organize, not Lance's. Why Lance couldn't/wouldn't sign the agreement I do not know. The speculation about Lance avoiding baseline tests is as good as any.

In any case, none of the planning and infrastructure had been done prior to announcing their intention at Las Vegas. It can be presumed that when Garmin and Columbia came along Catlin had done a lot of the necessary work. As previously stated, I have not seen any of the details of these agreements either. Are the agreements actually signed, or just the inention to sign them, a la Lance? What tests have been done, on whom? 

JSR


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

bigpinkt said:


> Perhaps the best example is the "I will not take a salary" then takes $1,000,000 to appear at the Tour Down Under.


As I understand it, he does not take a salary. Appearance money is an entirely separate matter, and you know that.

JSR


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

lookrider said:


> Do you hate America too?


Does this include South America or are we strictly talking about North America?


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

JSR said:


> As I understand it, he does not take a salary. Appearance money is an entirely separate matter, and you know that.
> 
> JSR


Many people would read Armstrong's "No Salary or bonus" statement as evidence that his return was entirely altruistic, that is was for the cancer community and not for personal financial gain. Creating that perception was certainly part of the reason for him saying it.

$1,00,000 for a week for a week of racing is not a bad payday no matter how you label it.


----------



## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

bigpinkt said:


> Many people would read Armstrong's "No Salary or bonus" statement as evidence that his return was entirely altruistic, that is was for the cancer community and not for personal financial gain. Creating that perception was certainly part of the reason for him saying it.
> 
> $1,00,000 for a week for a week of racing is not a bad payday no matter how you label it.


If he donates it to neoplasm research then it's cool w/me.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

MG537 said:


> Does this include South America or are we strictly talking about North America?


Don't forget central America, those guys suck.


----------



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Henry Porter said:


> If he donates it to neoplasm research then it's cool w/me.


Me too, but it wasn't. 

It went to the Bank of Lance


----------



## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

MG537 said:


> Does this include South America or are we strictly talking about North America?



Canada, YES (except Steve Baur and Elvis Stoiko: http://www.skate.org/stojko/)

Most countries in South America, NO - love the Cacao beans..


----------



## safetyguy (Mar 17, 2006)

lookrider said:


> Agreements? Planning?
> 
> WTF? He could have given vials of blood and peed in a cup the day he made the announcement.. How long does it take to do an HCT? They could have taken the blood at the beginning of the first press conference and had the results by the end. The blood is spun in a centrifuge for like 5 minutes and the calculation is made.
> 
> Gimme a f&cking break.


So LA shows up at that press conference on his 6.9, a portable micro lab strapped to his back, he whips it out and pees in his water bottle (it is a bright yellow – as yellow as a TdF jersey), takes an 18 gauge needle and pokes it in his arm and fills his other water bottle (fortunately his blood is red but this took a bit of extra planning on Johan’s part) – has both tested on the spot by Catlin – who has flown in on the Oakley helicopter. His TE ratio is 1.7 to 1. His HCT is 43.7. 

He gets back on his bike, tosses an arm full of yellow Livestrong bands to a few hotties in the crowd. He is heard to be singing - "We all live in a Yellow Submarine" as he pedals away. Floyd and Tyler just shake their heads and wonder how things went so wrong… Dr. Evil feels a warm tingle in his dark heart far, far away in his secret Tuscany laboratory. 

The truth squad on RBR starts SCREAMING, their keyboards melt as they furiously type how this was all a show and a complete fabrication. Look goes on a drinking binge and promptly sets a PR in a 10k run the next day. F1 calculates the watts needed to pee yellow and determines it is not humanly possible because Coppi’s pee in 1947 was rumored to be closer to the color of a beer (he was a freak you know). Big converses with his European sources and correctly notes that Jan tried the same stunt in 1997 but things went haywire when they (the Stassi) didn’t account for the X in his system from the rave the night before.

Safetyguy is enamored with the sheer bravado of the guy – especially the 1.7 and 43.7 – the 7s bing a reminder to all just who is boss. Swift begins making esoteric references to 13th century monks who actually invented index shifting – although there is absolutely no evidence to support this. And RG – whatever happened to that guy – oh yea he was banned – now that guy has the “truth”.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

safetyguy said:


> So LA shows up at that press conference on his 6.9, a portable micro lab strapped to his back, he whips it out and pees in his water bottle (it is a bright yellow – as yellow as a TdF jersey), takes an 18 gauge needle and pokes it in his arm.


He could use the bathroom, with supervision. I've had to. They even fill the toilet up with blue dye before you go in the stall. Does Armstrong have a history of catheterizing his a$$?

All of the teams used to have centrifuges. It's not a complicated thing. They were always checking their hct. If Pharmstrong was around 44 without a lot of training, we'd know his preparations for racing would bring it down to the neighborhood of 40 or 41. It's certainly not going to go up, is it?

At my job I don't recall ever negotiating the drug testing procedures. They just did it, and because I was a troublemaker in their eyes, they did it a lot. As much as they "hated" me, they didn't screw with the results.


----------



## function (Jun 20, 2008)

safetyguy said:


> The truth squad on RBR starts SCREAMING, their keyboards melt as they furiously type how this was all a show and a complete fabrication. Look goes on a drinking binge and promptly sets a PR in a 10k run the next day. F1 calculates the watts needed to pee yellow and determines it is not humanly possible because Coppi’s pee in 1947 was rumored to be closer to the color of a beer (he was a freak you know). Big converses with his European sources and correctly notes that Jan tried the same stunt in 1997 but things went haywire when they (the Stassi) didn’t account for the X in his system from the rave the night before.
> 
> Safetyguy is enamored with the sheer bravado of the guy – especially the 1.7 and 43.7 – the 7s bing a reminder to all just who is boss. Swift begins making esoteric references to 13th century monks who actually invented index shifting – although there is absolutely no evidence to support this. And RG – whatever happened to that guy – oh yea he was banned – now that guy has the “truth”.


 Thanks for the laugh


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> Me too, but it wasn't.
> 
> It went to the Bank of Lance


I supect you actually saw his bank records? Or was this reported by a reliable source close to the president?


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Old_school_nik said:


> The poster's may be anonymous but the dozens of links to media sources and major newspapers and court cases with documents on the official record most certainly are not. I simply can't see how anyone with an open mind could view the information posted in the "what all the Lance Haters" thread and not see that Lance used PED's or took transfusions.
> 
> Also, for the record, I am not a hater. I admire the guy for other reasons... but the fact is he and nearly every other winner fromt hat ERA used PED"s about 60% of them have ben caught....
> 
> Rant over...


Mostly, the "media sources and major newspapers" have been French tabloids. When legitimate news articles are posted, they're dismissed as Lance paid conspiracies. 

The very moment that Lance is found guilty by the cycling authorities, I will issue an apology to the guys who eat and sleep on the dope forum. Until then, I will continue to see these guys for what they are. 

It doesn't take much imagination to figure out that guys who live to bash this one guy may be real "special".


----------



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> I supect you actually saw his bank records? Or was this reported by a reliable source close to the president?


The source is Armstrong himself. 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/200...9/lance_armstrong_tdu_prerace_pressconf_jan09

_"Armstrong also dismissed reports that the appearance fee he has been paid to contest Tour Down Under will go to the charity"_

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/the_we...26.html?aff=rss

_"any fee he receives will not be donated to the Lance Armstrong Foundation. He added that the fee he was receiving was not a 'race fee' but was in line with what he has been paid for public speaking engagements in recent years."_



SwiftSolo said:


> Mostly, the "media sources and major newspapers" have been French tabloids. When legitimate news articles are posted, they're dismissed as Lance paid conspiracies.


Do you have an example of this? Or are you just blowing smoke again?


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> The source is Armstrong himself.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/200...9/lance_armstrong_tdu_prerace_pressconf_jan09
> 
> ...


So let me see if I understand. Up front, Lance says the money went to his bank account not to his charity and that is wrong how? Is your point that he is not doing anything or enough for his charity?


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> Do you have an example of this? Or are you just blowing smoke again?


Well, I've posted this as an example from The Guardian a number of times. You continue to discredit the Guardian and dismise the article.

The strategy of telling the same lies repeatedly only works when there is nobody there to refute those lies each time they're told.


"In a high-court hearing, Mr Justice Gray ruled that the meaning of the article as a whole implied that Armstrong had taken drugs to enhance his performance. He rejected arguments for the paper that the words conveyed no more than the existence of reasonable grounds to suspect.

"The Sunday Times has confirmed to Mr Armstrong that it never intended to accuse him of being guilty of taking any performance-enhancing drugs and sincerely apologised for any such impression," the paper's lawyers said.

You can continue to try to blow smoke up everyones' bung but your fabrications need to have at least an element of truth!


----------



## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> So let me see if I understand. Up front, Lance says the money went to his bank account not to his charity and that is wrong how? Is your point that he is not doing anything or enough for his charity?


Oy veh! 

It was brought up that Lance said he wasn't taking a salary for his comeback, leaving the impression that all proceeds would go to LAF. He's playing word games, kind of like he's doing with his complete transparency ploy.

A million dollar appearance fee is pretty substantial. How much is he sacrificing from his salary?

Hey, if you're that interested in participating and name calling it would be really "special" if you could read the threads.


----------



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> Well, I've posted this as an example from The Guardian a number of times. You continue to discredit the Guardian and dismise the article.
> 
> The strategy of telling the same lies repeatedly only works when there is nobody there to refute those lies each time they're told.
> 
> ...


You are still pimping that? After multiple links were posted proving it, and you, wrong? 

If you think I am fabricating something then instead of insults produce some evidence....real evidence, not the French Conspiracy excuse


----------



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> Mostly, the "media sources and major newspapers" have been French tabloids. When legitimate news articles are posted, they're dismissed as Lance paid conspiracies.
> 
> The very moment that Lance is found guilty by the cycling authorities, I will issue an apology to the guys who eat and sleep on the dope forum. Until then, I will continue to see these guys for what they are.
> 
> It doesn't take much imagination to figure out that guys who live to bash this one guy may be real "special".


As usual you are trolling.

I do not live to bash "One Guy" it is just that one guy has clueless fans who post French conspiracy theories as an explanation for everything. You seldom see Ulrich fans here protesting his innocence.


----------



## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

lookrider said:


> Oy veh!
> 
> It was brought up that Lance said he wasn't taking a salary for his comeback, leaving the impression that all proceeds would go to LAF. He's playing word games, kind of like he's doing with his complete transparency ploy.


Give me a break. I always assumed the point about not taking a salary was so that he wouldn't be taking team salary money away from anyone else. It wasn't intended to come across as a vow of poverty!

As far as Ullrich is concerned, any decent human being would be of the opinion that regardless of what the facts may have been, he was treated very poorly and publicly implicated in a manner that wasn't totally consistent with what the investigators actually turned up against him and what they officially could have proven. 

I'm sick of all the speculation games. If a rider isn't dirty enough to fail and official test and be officially banned, then they are clean enough for me. Better official tests would be a worthy goal to work towards. But official tests are all I'm going off of when making judgments about riders. My apologies to the internet forum doping police.


----------



## papisimo9807 (May 7, 2007)

* The very moment that Lance is found guilty by the cycling authorities, I will issue an apology to the guys who eat and sleep on the dope forum. Until then, I will continue to see these guys for what they are. *
Swiftsolo, I took a peek at your posting history. Empirical evidence suggests that you are one of "*the guys who eat and sleep on the dope forum*"! Apparently about 99% of your posts are found in this forum, yet against all etiquette you continue to consort with the dregs of the cycling community. 
Thank you for your efforts. They are much appreciated and of course, transparent.
I have to admit, I miss Mohair Chair here, he'd probably find the middle ground in all this sh!t.


----------



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

pacificaslim said:


> Give me a break. I always assumed the point about not taking a salary was so that he wouldn't be taking team salary money away from anyone else. It wasn't intended to come across as a vow of poverty!
> 
> As far as Ullrich is concerned, any decent human being would be of the opinion that regardless of what the facts may have been, he was treated very poorly and publicly implicated in a manner that wasn't totally consistent with what the investigators actually turned up against him and what they officially could have proven.
> 
> I'm sick of all the speculation games. If a rider isn't dirty enough to fail and official test and be officially banned, then they are clean enough for me. Better official tests would be a worthy goal to work towards. But official tests are all I'm going off of when making judgments about riders. My apologies to the internet forum doping police.


Official test? Like the DNA test that Jan had that matched the blood bags in Fuentes fridge labeled "Jan" "#1" "Ejo de Rudico" ....son of Rudy (Pevenage)? Certainly his DNA was planted in those bags and is yet another victim of the vast French conspiracy.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> You are still pimping that? After multiple links were posted proving it, and you, wrong?
> 
> If you think I am fabricating something then instead of insults produce some evidence....real evidence, not the French Conspiracy excuse


Actually, not one link was posted that did anything to refute that article. A bunch of unrelated BS was linked in an effort to bore the crap out of the uninitiated. You've neither written or linked anything that would cause any rational person to dispute it.

Your definition of "evidence" may differ just a smidgen from those with deductive reasoning skills. Consider just once that unsubstantiated rumor from french tabloids may not be the ultimate reality.


----------



## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> Actually, not one link was posted that did anything to refute that article. A bunch of unrelated BS was linked in an effort to bore the crap out of the uninitiated. You've neither written or linked anything that would cause any rational person to dispute it.


I see how you works. Actually I, and others, posted numerous articles that embarrassed you and proved you wrong....and now instead being a man about it you again just troll. The fact that the only thing you were able to produce to support your broad accusations is only one article that was proven wrong shows the weakness of your position. 


Here is another link that shows the Guardian article was incorrect.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/...le_272614.html

_And finally, Armstrong said: “We sued David Walsh in the high court and we won that case.”

Not quite. Armstrong sued The Sunday Times over an article written by another member of the paper's staff, Alan English, who wrote about some of the allegations made in David Walsh and Pierre Ballester's book. Armstrong and The Sunday Times settled out of court, which is a very different outcome._

-the book has been NEVER shown to be libelous in court
-Walsh NEVER lost a liable case to Lance
-The Times NEVER lost a liable case to Lance
-Walsh NEVER wrote the times Times article
-The court NEVER ordered the Times to make a settlement to Lance

Lance knew that he would have to pay all costs when he lost so, just like all his other cases on the book, he got out when he could.



SwiftSolo said:


> Your definition of "evidence" may differ just a smidgen from those with deductive reasoning skills. Consider just once that unsubstantiated rumor from french tabloids may not be the ultimate reality.


Do you have an example of these "unsubstantiated rumor from french tabloids"? Or is this just your catch all conspiracy theory?


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> I see how you works. Actually I, and others, posted numerous articles that embarrassed you and proved you wrong....and now instead being a man about it you again just troll. The fact that the only thing you were able to produce to support your broad accusations is only one article that was proven wrong shows the weakness of your position.
> 
> 
> Here is another link that shows the Guardian article was incorrect.
> ...


You know, I only researched your claims above. After 10 minutes I found the Guardian article that completely blew your story apart, as I suspected it would. 

Now you resort to posting the same BS claims over and over. You claim to know what Lance is thinking when he makes decisions. You attack LA every time anything is said about him and every time he is interviewed. It's doesn't take rocket science to deduce that someone has a problem besides LA!

Have you ever considered letting the authorities handle this? If you don't trust the cycling authorities (because LA has paid them all off), file a suit on behalf of your cycling frineds. You guys can prove that you've been damaged (it's obvious). With all the other "proof" you've got they will certainly hang him several times after they give you his assets for your pain and suffering. All that before you even get into his duping of the public for his bogus cancer drive.


----------



## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> You know, I only researched your claims above. After 10 minutes I found the Guardian article that completely blew your story apart, as I suspected it would.
> 
> Now you resort to posting the same BS claims over and over. You claim to know what Lance is thinking when he makes decisions. You attack LA every time anything is said about him and every time he is interviewed. It's doesn't take rocket science to deduce that someone has a problem besides LA!
> 
> Have you ever considered letting the authorities handle this? If you don't trust the cycling authorities (because LA has paid them all off), file a suit on behalf of your cycling frineds. You guys can prove that you've been damaged (it's obvious). With all the other "proof" you've got they will certainly hang him several times after they give you his assets for your pain and suffering. All that before you even get into his duping of the public for his bogus cancer drive.



Are you Tim Herman?


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> You know, I only researched your claims above. After 10 minutes I found the Guardian article that completely blew your story apart, as I suspected it would.
> 
> Now you resort to posting the same BS claims over and over. You claim to know what Lance is thinking when he makes decisions. You attack LA every time anything is said about him and every time he is interviewed. It's doesn't take rocket science to deduce that someone has a problem besides LA!
> 
> Have you ever considered letting the authorities handle this? If you don't trust the cycling authorities (because LA has paid them all off), file a suit on behalf of your cycling frineds. You guys can prove that you've been damaged (it's obvious). With all the other "proof" you've got they will certainly hang him several times after they give you his assets for your pain and suffering. All that before you even get into his duping of the public for his bogus cancer drive.


You are trolling, You have produced nothing but one article that was proven wrong multiple times. As usual when you are embarrassed you start crying and calling names. 

The authorities? You mean like Robin Parisotto, the researcher who developed the EPO test and now works for the UCI running the Biopassport testing. Last week he said this


_"Parisotto adds that there are so many indications that Armstrong has been doped. "The many books in which witnesses put him in connection with doping, the positive EPO tests from 1999 by the French sports newspaper L'Equipe, wrote in 2005. And then the fact that everyone around him was doped and then were he be the only one that was not - it's hard to believe. " 

He adds that the results which showed that the Americans were doped in 1999, from a scientific point of view should be regarded as valid. "And the methods were also validated. It is clear that the question mark, the concerns about whether Armstrong was doped really is more of a legal nature than scientific. So there is scientific evidence that he was doped in 1999 that he took epo then. *To deny it would be to lie.* " _

http://www.feltet.dk/index.php?id_parent=1&id=28&id_nyhed=17128


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Is it your contention that Lance must have been on some sort of secret program that was separate from his teammates at that time, so secret that even his good friend and team captain was unaware of it, that would account for them admitting that they used drugs but never saw Lance do so? Or is it your contention that Andreu is lying about that? And if you do believe he is a liar, why believe what he said about overhearing the men-in-white-coats-who-were-not-lance's-doctors hospital room conversation?


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

pacificaslim said:


> Is it your contention that Lance must have been on some sort of secret program that was separate from his teammates at that time, so secret that even his good friend and team captain was unaware of it, that would account for them admitting that they used drugs but never saw Lance do so? Or is it your contention that Andreu is lying about that? And if you do believe he is a liar, why believe what he said about overhearing the men-in-white-coats-who-were-not-lance's-doctors hospital room conversation?



Nice straw man narrative. 

Andreu knew that Pharmstrong was using Ferrari back in '96.

Andreu chose not to use him.

Do you believe Ferrari is ethical?

Here's a hilarious bit of his testimony....

_ In order to avoid being busted by anti-doping controlles, "Dr. Ferrari recommended I use Emagel the morning before controls, and another product to decrease my haematocrit"[2], Simeoni testified. Ferrari's own indignant testimony in the trial reveals his pragmatic yet very true and honest attitude to the use of illegal substances: "Andriol is easily detectable for several days in a normal urine test," Ferrari explained. "So, it is impossible that I suggested he take one Andriol 20 hours before another race."_

Andreu came out against Pharmstrong and ruined his livelihood because Betsey hates him.

Makes sense to me.:crazy: ut:


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> You are trolling, You have produced nothing but one article that was proven wrong multiple times. As usual when you are embarrassed you start crying and calling names.
> 
> The authorities? You mean like Robin Parisotto, the researcher who developed the EPO test and now works for the UCI running the Biopassport testing. Last week he said this
> 
> ...


Great post.:thumbsup: 
What I'll say again, and something which is fairly amusing....Le Monde, L'Equipe and the Sunday Times are dismissed as tabloid thrash, and 'libellous'. The Guardian is not questioned in any way whatsoever. It is gospel it seems. In reality though that article in the Guardian has shown up numerous examples of inaccuracies - for example they apologised to Betsy Andreu for one of these inaccuracies. To the people who dismiss the first three newspapers as 'tabloid', I would be curious as to whether any of you have actually seen a hard copy of either one.
So essentially, any newspaper which portrays Lance in a positive light is all of a sudden a paragon of virtue, with outstanding journalists. Meanwhile, any newspaper which does the opposite is seen as a tabloid, with only money as their incentive. This reminds me of Joseph Goebbels and Germany.


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

lookrider said:


> Nice straw man narrative.
> 
> Andreu knew that Pharmstrong was using Ferrari back in '96.
> 
> ...


And just to underline this, Lance used to tease Frankie for not availing the services of Ferrari, saying to him that 'you too could get the results, if you weren't so 'cheap'. Probably just training plans that Lance was alluding to though!!
Imagine going to a Doctor who advocates doping in such an open way, to get his body fat measured, as Lance has claimed. That's a fairly expensive fat measuring service Ferrari's got going on. But Frank Schleck paid 7,000 Euro to a man he never met, though he was in the same building as him on a couple of occasions, did not receive services for this money, and did not request a refund. Amazing coincidences going on in the cycling world.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

The fact remains that all of this will always be nothing more than speculation because it has nothing to do with the official rules of the sport as enforced by its organizations. They have not declared Lance a cheater, therefore he is legal to ride and his titles are all legit in the eyes of the sport itself. The rest of you may feel you are somehow more in the know and more worthy to make judgments than the organizations themselves, based on a lot of he said she said bs, but to me that is a ridiculous claim.


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

pacificaslim said:


> The rest of you may feel you are somehow more in the know and more worthy to make judgments than the organizations themselves, based on a lot of he said she said bs, but to me that is a ridiculous claim.


Based on what he said, she said?!! So they're all liars? EPO was never found in his urine. Prescriptions were never post-dated. Activogen was never found. His haematocrit never rose by 7%. He never worked with a known doping doctor. He never told doctors he took PEDs, and the people who said on tape that he told doctors all this, they were lying. IM Conversation between two former team mates was all fabricated...etc etc

How in all seriousness can you believe in this guy?

Note: In an interview from 2001, 
Q: Did you ever visit Michele Ferrari?
A: I did know Michele Ferrari.
Q: Did you ever visit him?
A: Have I been tested by him, gone and been there and consulteed on certain things? Perhaps.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

pacificaslim said:


> The fact remains that all of this will always be nothing more than speculation because it has nothing to do with the official rules of the sport as enforced by its organizations. They have not declared Lance a cheater, therefore he is legal to ride and his titles are all legit in the eyes of the sport itself. The rest of you may feel you are somehow more in the know and more worthy to make judgments than the organizations themselves, based on a lot of he said she said bs, but to me that is a ridiculous claim.


Nothing more then speculation? 6 positives for EPO are more then speculation. High level people at the UCI, ASO, and WADA have all said that Armstrong is a doper and a fraud. 

The official rules of the sport did not catch Basso, Ulrich, Riis, De Lucca, Scarponi, LeoGrande, etc. If it helps you continue to believe in miracles then by all means ignore the evidence and believe the myth, but most rational observers would disagree. 



pacificaslim said:


> his titles are all legit in the eyes of the sport itself.


:idea: 
The sport is NOT the UCI, it is the fans. The vast majority of cycling fans think he is a doper.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

http://www.addleshawgoddard.com/view.asp?content_id=1649&parent_id=1409

What the Guardian article - which is a straight reprint of the press release released by Shilling's, Armstrong's lawyers - neglects to mention is that the Sunday Times went on to successfully appeal Justice Eady's decision, leaving Armstrong with recourse to appealing to the House of Lords or going to trial - strangely, a course of action not taken:

'However, in July this year The Sunday Times hit back with a successful appeal whereby the Court of Appeal restored its defence of qualified privilege. In a judgment which will hearten media defendants *Lord Justice Brooke said that fairness demanded that the merits of the newspaper's Reynolds defence should be properly investigated at trial.* For example, the evidence regarding the sources of the article and the attempts made to put the allegations to Mr Armstrong before publication should be subject to detailed examination at trial. The court held that in this case it was not appropriate for the defence to be disposed of summarily, as it had been by Mr Justice Eady.

So it is Round 2 to The Sunday Times and it remains to be seen whether Mr Armstrong takes an appeal to the House of Lords. Media defendants have been concerned that it appears that the judges have been applying the Reynolds criteria, laid down by Lord Nichols in the House of Lords, as if they are pre-conditions to the defence being available, rather than the more flexible test that Lord Nichols seemed to be contemplating. The Court of Appeal's decision in the Armstrong case may herald a change of approach towards those criteria which media defendants would welcome.'

BTW this took me about 2 minutes to find.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Bianchigirl said:


> http://www.addleshawgoddard.com/view.asp?content_id=1649&parent_id=1409
> 
> What the Guardian article - which is a straight reprint of the press release released by Shilling's, Armstrong's lawyers - neglects to mention is that the Sunday Times went on to successfully appeal Justice Eady's decision, leaving Armstrong with recourse to appealing to the House of Lords or going to trial - strangely, a course of action not taken:
> 
> ...


This must be from a tabloid or part of a French conspiracy.:thumbsup:


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> This must be from a tabloid or part of a French conspiracy.:thumbsup:


David Walsh, the 'libellous wanker' he is, paid the Judge in question to come to this decision!!


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

pacificaslim said:


> The fact remains that all of this will always be nothing more than speculation because it has nothing to do with the official rules of the sport as enforced by its organizations.


Where's the speculation?

- The governing bodies will not impose sanctions or take away titles (i.e. no speculation there)

- Armstrong was proven by scientific methods to have doped, according to experts as quoted in this thread (i.e. no speculation there)



pacificaslim said:


> They have not declared Lance a cheater, therefore he is legal to ride and his titles are all legit in the eyes of the sport itself.


Of course the titles are legit according to the governing bodies. No one is arguing this. The "sport" as you refer to it above, is more than the governing bodies. However, without governing bodies there would still be cycling, and people would still find ways to compete. As passionate fans of both cycling and fair play WE are also the sport. Without us the governing bodies would cease to exist.



pacificaslim said:


> The rest of you may feel you are somehow more in the know and more worthy to make judgments than the organizations themselves,


To put the governing bodies on a pedestal beyond reproach is ignorant. Having dealt with many different levels of governing bodies in cycling and other sports, and experiencing both the best and worst they have to offer, I feel _entirely worthy_ to make decisions for myself that may differ from the official party line. If you lack that self-worth that's a problem between you and your therapist, not the rest of us.



pacificaslim said:


> based on a lot of he said she said bs, but to me that is a ridiculous claim.


Like the he said / she said witness testimony that often makes up key parts of a formal legal proceeding? Yes, what a ridiculous concept indeed.  The fact that it is witness testimony doesn't in itself make it BS, it's the content of that testimony that must be scrutinized.


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

Anyway, some people are waiting for the 'authorities' to make a decision. If Lance was caught tomorrow, these people would say that the sample was spiked. If Lance then admitted that he doped, they'd say he only doped this year and not in the past. And then finally they'd say, but sure they were all at it. 
After all, L'Equipe, the evil crowd they are, miraculously tampered his samples with EPO, just to sell newspapers. Le Monde, the most high brow newspaper in mainland Europe is a 'tabloid'. And the ultimate irony here, is that the likes of me, get labelled, 'conspiracy theorists'.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Digger28 said:


> Anyway, some people are waiting for the 'authorities' to make a decision. If Lance was caught tomorrow, these people would say that the sample was spiked. If Lance then admitted that he doped, they'd say he only doped this year and not in the past. And then finally they'd say, but sure they were all at it.
> After all, L'Equipe, the evil crowd they are, miraculously tampered his samples with EPO, just to sell newspapers. Le Monde, the most high brow newspaper in mainland Europe is a 'tabloid'. And the ultimate irony here, is that the likes of me, get labelled, 'conspiracy theorists'.


And a hater too! I think loser has been bandied about also..

Let me buy you a drink...

It's hopeless, because errrr, well, sometimes you have to dope because everyone else is doing it.

And even though I think he was probably doping, all of the reasons you brought up are wrong, because it's the right of all Americans to be tried in a court of law, and Pharmstrong has given a lot of people hope.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

pacificaslim said:


> The fact remains that all of this will always be nothing more than speculation because it has nothing to do with the official rules of the sport as enforced by its organizations. They have not declared Lance a cheater, therefore he is legal to ride and his titles are all legit in the eyes of the sport itself. The rest of you may feel you are somehow more in the know and more worthy to make judgments than the organizations themselves, based on a lot of he said she said bs, but to me that is a ridiculous claim.



By this logic than most Americans think they "are more in the know" than the courts since the courts let him off the first time. I think most Americans think he did it (murder his ex-wife) though.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> You are trolling, You have produced nothing but one article that was proven wrong multiple times. As usual when you are embarrassed you start crying and calling names.
> 
> The authorities? You mean like Robin Parisotto, the researcher who developed the EPO test and now works for the UCI running the Biopassport testing. Last week he said this
> 
> ...


The article is wrong in your eyes because it refutes what you'd like to believe. You've produced no (zero, none, nada) evidence whatsoever to back up your inane logic. You qoute L'Equipe and then play ignorant about which French tabloid I refer to? You continue to tell us what LA is thinking when he makes decisions. You expect rational people to take you seriously?

If you have the goods, start the litigation mate.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Circlip said:


> To put the governing bodies on a pedestal beyond reproach is ignorant. Having dealt with many different levels of governing bodies in cycling and other sports, and experiencing both the best and worst they have to offer, I feel _entirely worthy_ to make decisions for myself that may differ from the official party line. If you lack that self-worth that's a problem between you and your therapist, not the rest of us.


I think I get it now: you guys are *******s who confuse self-righteousness with self-worth, and enjoy making personal attacks on others and sitting in judment over others. Be it fellow cyclists in discussions here, or various pros you suspect. Very positive way to go through life.

The issues isn't one of putting the governing bodies on a pedestal: it's simply recognizing that they are the final say. They set the rules and enforce them. Can they make mistakes, of course! But you should be working towards making stronger official testing protocols and eliminating doping that way instead of working towards smearing cyclists with newspaper articles and tell-all books and internet posts.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> The article is wrong in your eyes because it refutes what you'd like to believe. You've produced no (zero, none, nada) evidence whatsoever to back up your inane logic. You qoute L'Equipe and then play ignorant about which French tabloid I refer to? You continue to tell us what LA is thinking when he makes decisions. You expect rational people to take you seriously?
> 
> If you have the goods, start the litigation mate.


I, and others (read Bianchigirl's post) have proven you wrong. L'Equipe is not a tabloid, it is the worlds premier sports newspaper. 

You expect rational people to take you seriously?


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