# What happens to all the cheap vintage Japanese steel frames?



## Campag12 (Jul 31, 2008)

I need a new all around beater frame (actually this would be the third "beater"  ) for university. Naturally, I checked ebay for those amazing Japanese steels from the like of Miyata, Nishiki, Fuji, and how could I forget, Centurion simply because they were dirt cheap from experience. These days, most of these frames go well over $200, and they are not even in the best of condition. What exactly had happened to the market? I remember the days(maybe 3 years ago?) when I could buy a whole bike at that price. Did someone purchase all the Japanese steel frames and destroy them to increase the price of Chinese made alum frames, and as a result, indirectly drive up the competition for Japanese steels? :mad2: :cryin:


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## carbon13 (Dec 23, 2007)

Dave Hickey bought them all.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Fuji is in Taiwan, but mainly aluminum and CF. 
There is a company in Taiwan called Yi Hsing that used to make steel frames for the Japanese and American brands. They are supposedly a top quality builder. I know a guy who is drawing up plans to build his own steel frames through them...heavily influenced by Colnago and other Italian frame builders, but cheaper.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

LOL...I wish

The truth is that others found out the same thing I did...There were some amazing, great riding 80's Jananese frames...

Tange #1 has become my all time favorite tubeset


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Supply and demand.*



> _What exactly had happened to the market?_


Many of these Japanese-framed bikes are hanging in garages and sheds all over the country and will go into a landfill sooner or later. Because very few ever make it onto the market and because they're desirable, the price is high—just basic economics.

If you scour many Goodwill-type stores often and long enough, you might get lucky and score a Tange bike for $30 or so.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

I have a Centurion Elite RS and a Schwinn Prologue (a "Japanese Paramount")-- and while the Prologue uses better Tange tubing, BOTH are lighter than any of the current "me too" fixed/SS offerings that sell for $500-700. These framesets last forever, and even at $200 they are still a bargain.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Ask your local collection of fixed gear douchebags...:thumbsup:


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## simonton (Mar 11, 2007)

craigslist? yardsales?


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

they are all in new york and have been fitted with mtb bars and pastel deep v rims


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## Campag12 (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi Dave,

Which maker used this steel the most? In other words, what model should I keyword for a cheap tange No.1 frame? 



Dave Hickey said:


> LOL...I wish
> 
> The truth is that others found out the same thing I did...There were some amazing, great riding 80's Jananese frames...
> 
> Tange #1 has become my all time favorite tubeset


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## Campag12 (Jul 31, 2008)

The fixed gear craze, I hope it passes soon. Too many nice frames are reduced to pushing a single cog.:cryin: Methink this world would be a better place if we can cold stretch the rears of all of these frames to fit campag 12 in the near future.



backinthesaddle said:


> Ask your local collection of fixed gear douchebags...:thumbsup:


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Campag12 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Which maker used this steel the most? In other words, what model should I keyword for a cheap tange No.1 frame?


Dave will know for sure. For sheer numbers, my uneducated guess would be Schwinn, which sold a lot of Tange bikes in the 1990s. Some of these were Tange OS Paramounts ("Japamounts"). Try these keywords: Schwinn, PDG, Paramount, Paramount Design Group.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

he doesn't buy _cheap_ bikes...


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Blame the fixed-gear craze. Unfortunately, many of the fixe faddists also are ruining the practical Japanese frames by grinding off the braze-ons for DT shifters, cable guides, etc. Then they dress them up with goofy painted aero wheels, plaid top-tube covers and other trendy gimmicks so they can park them outside the coffee shops.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

> Too many nice frames are reduced to pushing a single cog. Methink this world would be a better place if we can cold stretch the rears of all of these frames to fit campag 12 in the near future.


I used to not think much of it... but after viewing a couple of heart-breakers in the Retro section...:cryin:


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

tarwheel2 said:



> Blame the fixed-gear craze. Unfortunately, many of the fixe faddists also are ruining the practical Japanese frames by grinding off the braze-ons for DT shifters, cable guides, etc. Then they dress them up with goofy painted aero wheels, plaid top-tube covers and other trendy gimmicks so they can park them outside the coffee shops.




oooh, the first shot has been fired across the bow...


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Ahh, lighten up,*

you cranky old guys (can I say that? -- I'm a cranky old guy, too). It's silly to rage at the "fixie craze." So what if somebody grinds off the braze-ons and puts pastel wheels on a "semi-nice" frame. At least the bikes are being ridden. Most of 'em would probably be in landfills otherwise. It's an industrial product, not a sacred archeological object. Keep looking in the garage sales and thrift stores. My favorite fixed is built on a Raleigh Rampar (remember those? Very cheap Japanese steel) that I got for $5. It seems kind of funny to be looking for a "beater" and be complaining that you can't find a certain quality frame at a certain price. There are still a lot of old bikes around.

End of counter-rant ;-)


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## livin4lax09 (Mar 15, 2008)

they're all on craigslist. Cheap beaters are very easy to find on CL, notsomuch on ebay.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

+1...I watched a stove pipe Murray sell for $125 on eBay the other night... I wouldn't pay $10 for one.....

CL is a better choice for a decent older bike but even on CL there is always someone that thinks that their beat up Huffy is worth $500


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## ggphysics (Jul 24, 2007)

I'm finding plenty...in my size (60cm+). I just scooped up a mint Fuji Opus III with Suntour Superbe for just under $300 +shipping. Raleigh Techniums rode pretty well if you can find them.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Panasonic made a number of nice frames out of Tange #1. Look for their DX5000 and 4000 series. But again, these are hard to find. I sure wish i didn't sell my1988 and 1989 DX 5000's.........


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## carbon13 (Dec 23, 2007)

l have to agree l really miss my triple triangle tange 2 shogun ninja, truth be told l liked riding it more than my steel cinelle.


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## bwana (Feb 4, 2005)

I know exactly what happened to the chrome-lugged, paint-over-chrome, Tange Champion #2 1981 Centurion SemiPro that I bought new: it is still the only bike I have owned since then. The only problem I have is that I can't find replacement hoods for the Gran Compe levers.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

They're bought by guys like me to use as commuters. Mine is a Panasonic 1000.


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## Reynolds531 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Tange 2 is better for bigger frames*

Tange 2 is the same quality as Tange 1, but has thicker walls for bigger bikes and adds less than 100 grams to the frame. Tange 1 on anything bigger than a 56 cm or a rider over 180 lbs is too flimsy.

I have a Tnage 2 64 cm Shogun I bought 2 yeasrs ago--complete bike iin great shape with Shimano 600 Arabesqe Group for $120. It is way nice. I also have a 64 cm Tange 5 (straight guage) Cenutrion Elite. Don't sneer at Tange 5--It is also very nice and noticibly stiffer, but not as lively .Tange 5 a whopping 200 grams heavier.

Ishiwata and Miyata made excellent tubesets as well.


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## SVCoop (Aug 20, 2008)

Around here anyway, even 20 year old department store bikes sell for $150 at least. I tried to trade my 2001 Kona MTB for any old road bike and everybody wanted my bike plus cash. I decided I might just convert to a hyrbid of sorts.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

I think "what happened" to those bikes is the Internet; specifically, forums such as this one, where plenty of people recommended frames like Centurion, Miyata, Panasonic, Shogun, etc. I know three years ago *I* never would've looked twice at a 20 year old steel bike...but after reading countless endorsements from folks on roadbikereview.com, bikeforums.net, the Serotta forum, framerbuilder's forum, and rec.bicycles.fetish.let-me-lick-your-framepump.net, I realized these were perhaps a real sleeper. Clearly a lot of other people came to that same realization.

(I eventually scored a 1985 Bridgestone in mint, 100% original condition, for $285 on eBay.)


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## tomk96 (Sep 24, 2007)

CL is silly for bikes by me. everybody is trying to sell 15yr old mountain bikes for $50 less than they paid for them new.

the fixed bikes with ugly pastel rims and cut bars seem way over priced too.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Reynolds531 said:


> Tange 2 is the same quality as Tange 1, but has thicker walls for bigger bikes and adds less than 100 grams to the frame. Tange 1 on anything bigger than a 56 cm or a rider over 180 lbs is too flimsy.
> 
> I have a Tnage 2 64 cm Shogun I bought 2 yeasrs ago--complete bike iin great shape with Shimano 600 Arabesqe Group for $120. It is way nice. I also have a 64 cm Tange 5 (straight guage) Cenutrion Elite. Don't sneer at Tange 5--It is also very nice and noticibly stiffer, but not as lively .Tange 5 a whopping 200 grams heavier.
> 
> Ishiwata and Miyata made excellent tubesets as well.


I think that the uptick in cost is due to folks looking for frames to build as fixies. Anything with horizontal dropouts in the back is automatically worth at least $100 on Craigslist.

I have a Tange 5 Centurion Elite 12 frameset sitting in my workshop (60cn) that has raised an ethical dilemma. I can't ride it (too big) but I do have some friends that might like it as a fixie. Now....do I give it the fixie "treatment" and cut the derailleur tab off and buzz away the brake cable loops, etc., or do I just clean it up and paint it? I feel bad doing this to an otherwise sound frameset (the paint needs work, and I have something cool in mind that I want to try) - once you are done it is useless as a geared bike.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

I think the trend of ppl buying Craigslist bikes is absolutely awesome, whether they're doing it to get a nice commuter for cheap or a fixie. 

It's like Recycling for bikes. So much better than filling up the landfills with perfectly good, usable bikes, eh? :thumbsup:

...


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

Don't forget that the demand for bicycles is way up in general. It's not just people converting them to fixed gear. Gas prices have made new bike sales go up and also have made a lot of people pull 20 year old bikes out of their garage and actually use them instead of dumping them. A lot of these people are presumably commuters and/or people that haven't ridden in a while, so they may be increasing the demand and driving up the price of used bikes rather than buying new. They're just getting their feet wet, and it makes sense to buy something used until they figure out if they'll stick with it.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

:idea: I keep seeing some nice steel Giant frames from the same era. I can probably pick them up for $30-40... how much would these go for in the US.


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## Sojourner2005 (May 16, 2008)

I have a Focus RS-500. Made in Japan. It sat in my sister's basement for about 20 yrs. Suntour Cyclone 600 RD, Tange 900. She was going to let it go in a garage sale and I nabbed it first because I liked its green and yellow coloring. I ride it almost as often as I ride my Diva... just not quite as far.


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

+1 on Bridgestone. 

About 4 yrs ago I bought a Bridgestone RB-2, complete with mostly period correct Dura Ace, for $150.00. I also bought a PDG "Captain America" Paramount, with period correct Dura Ace, for $200.

Man, I wish those days would come back.


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## 7eap4a (Sep 4, 2003)

I bought a Dave Scott Centurion for $50 from a guy I work with a year or 2 ago. It was in great shape, all 105 components & Biopace chainrings which is different & kinda cool. Thought it would be a great bike for the trainer but I actually find it to be a great ride overall. One of my favorite bikes & I like the retro of it


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## peyo (Aug 5, 2008)

I have a soft spot for 80's Nishiki bikes since I started biking on a Nishiki back then. Trying to find a mint condition Nishiki is getting more difficult these days b/c they are being snatched up (on CL) by people who do singlespeed conversions. Either that or they have already been converted. It saddens me when people strip off the components and throw them away.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

*Guilty as charged*



tarwheel2 said:


> Blame the fixed-gear craze. Unfortunately, many of the fixe faddists also are ruining the practical Japanese frames by grinding off the braze-ons for DT shifters, cable guides, etc. Then they dress them up with goofy painted aero wheels, plaid top-tube covers and other trendy gimmicks so they can park them outside the coffee shops.


At least it's seeing daily duty, helping me continue to be productive, tax-paying citizen.
Tange Champion Univega. Cable guides and shifter bosses intact.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I've been scouring for a steel frame myself, but just haven't had the luck. Granted, the time I get is rare. Patience will hopefully pay off.


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

peyo said:


> I have a soft spot for 80's Nishiki bikes since I started biking on a Nishiki back then. Trying to find a mint condition Nishiki is getting more difficult these days b/c they are being snatched up (on CL) by people who do singlespeed conversions. Either that or they have already been converted. It saddens me when people strip off the components and throw them away.


A little rust, including the top of the seat tube, and I replaced a couple of the original cogs a few years ago because they were worn, but otherwise original parts. (Not for sale and not worth much). It's probably a 1986, maybe 1987. I don't remember because I was a teenager when I got it.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I found my Panasonic 1000 used at my LBS. Somebody brought it in for new tires. After more than a year passed he decided to sell it. I bought it for $40. It was real dirty, but otherwise fine. Over the years I've made some upgrades, notably wheels & the seat. I rode the original wheels until they were trashed.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Peanya said:


> I've been scouring for a steel frame myself, but just haven't had the luck. Granted, the time I get is rare. Patience will hopefully pay off.


Here is a Craigslist find. I paid $125.00 

It's a Panasonic DX4000.. The frame is the only thing original...I rattle canned it all white and added red Panasonic logos. 

The original paint was white/pink/green 80's splash paint scheme...


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Dave Hickey said:


> Here is a Craigslist find. I paid $125.00
> 
> It's a Panasonic DX4000.. The frame is the only thing original...I rattle canned it all white and added red Panasonic logos.
> 
> The original paint was white/pink/green 80's splash paint scheme...


That looks great Dave. Nice job. I kept mine the way it was except for the wheels, seat & bars. It still has the Sakae cranks, Shimano derailleurs, 6 spd rear, mystery brakes, etc. I use it only for commuting and foul weather duty.


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