# Why I bought a Motobecane



## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

Sorry, not a shill for Bikes Direct. Maybe the moderator/s has access to my ip address, and if they do then they know that. And hold off on the flames until you at least read my post because this is more about my local LBS's and less about BD

First off, I've been bike commuting for years. I've had some old "garage sale" bikes and they have worked out well. I'm a runner with injuries and cannot run much anymore. My second choice of exercising has been biking and now it's my first choice. After putting in hundreds of hard miles on my old bike I decided that I was killing myself and that I needed a better bike. So I began searching and researching bikes, frames, etc.

By the time I was ready to take some test rides, it was mid-July. I went to 5 shops and rode 6 or 7 different bikes. I then went home and checked out weights and geometry on the bikes in my price range and soon realized that the geometry on these bikes was very similar, so similar that I knew that I, as a first-time roadie, wouldn't be albe to tell the difference. So it came down to price and weight. I wanted to get the lightest bike I could find for under $1600, the lighter and the cheaper the better.

I headed back to the local LBS's to check out the rides again. And this is where things got interesting. Some of the local LBS's are like boutique shops. When you walk in the sales people really just can't be bothered. At one shop the owner turned me over to some kid who didn't know much about bikes because the owner got frustrated about the number of questions I was asking. Then the kid tries to tell me that the Specialized Roubaix was named for a famous climb in the Tour de France, and this while the Tour was being shown on a big screen in the middle of the store. So I left there not wanting to go back. Someone once said that, "The sale starts at the point of contact." The guy that runs that shop must have missed that.

So I'm off to shop # 2. They had Felts, which I liked, just not the warranty. But these guys are really not known for customer service. In fact I only went in there to see the Felts. I was worried about service down the road and I just didn't feel that these guys would take care of me. I once tried to buy some ski gear from them but I changed my mind at the last minute because there was something funny with how they operated.

So now it's to shop # 3. These guys sell Giants and Le Monds. They had a Giant carbon for about $1800. Out of my price range. These guys are enthusiasts, racers. I bought a MTB from them and I have no complaints. But the bikes they had were too expensive and they weighed close to 20 lbs. I knew I could do better.

Shop # 4. Another boutique shop where the staff was too important to come out from behind the counter. They finally got a bike down for me. A Jamis. I liked the bike. It was $1200 or so. It felt almost as good as the Giant carbon, my favorite. But I couldn't get on to the big chain ring. I took it back. The mechanic couldn't get the damn thing to work. They put me on another bike, larger than what I would want. It wasn't the same. Then, while I was talking to the guy, he got a call on his cell phone. I stood around until I realized where his priorities lie and then I left.

Shop # 5. REI. Well these guys, at least at our local REI, have always been good and they didn't let me down this time either. I went out on a Scott Speedster 10. I liked the bike and it was on sale for $1700. A little out of my price range but I knew that if I had any problems with this bike that REI would make it right, no questions asked. The bike was more $ than I wanted to spend and it weighed closed to 20 lbs but all that was okay. Only they didn't have my size and they couldn't get one in my size. Case closed.

And the moral of this story so far is that if you don't take your customers seriously, then how do you expect your customers to take you seriously? LBS's with cool, nose in the air staff will not make the cut because as they say, "The customer is always right."

So I went online and found BD. They had a bike in my price range and it was lighter than anything I looked at. Customer service? Oh, yeah. Where was I going to get that? From one of the boutque shops that couldn't be bothered to even sell me a bike? Or how about from the uptight owner of the one shop that had better things to do than to answer my stupd questions. Outside of REI and the guys who were selling the Giants, I figured that I'd have nothing but trouble at the other shops. So, you got trouble with your bike and then you have trouble with the LBS. Talk about lose/lose.

More research. I checked out the reviews of the bikes here on this site. Nothing great and nothing really bad. Check out enough reviews and you'll find the same thing for almost all the bike out there. Someone does not like something about the bike you love. Gauranteed!

So I buy the bike, a Le Champion with full Ultegra 10 drive train. It comes as promised. The wheels were true and I was riding it in three hours. I've already increased my avg speed by 7 mph. I guess that's to be expected considering the weight difference between the new and old bikes.

This is my first real roadbike. As an entry level bike I just don't know how I can go wrong. Maybe later on I'll want something better, something high dollar, but this isn't a status symbol. I intend to use it. It's not going to sit in the garage gathering dust. It works well. It has the right components. With the 12 oz pedals that were included with the bike, the bike comes in right at 18 lbs. That's with the pedals which makes this bike easily 2 lbs lighter than any of the other bikes I looked at. I've put close to 800 miles on it so far. I had a problem with the rear derailleur (you can find my first post on this forum about that if you care to do a search) but that was fixed by a local mechanic who didn't even want to charge me for the tweak. I insisted and he took 5 bucks. 

We have a couple of mechanics in town who work out of their garages. They do good work. I know that from experience. Had I bought a bike locally, I always intended to have any necessary work done by one of these guys anyway mainly because they're closer than REI or the Giant store. Warranty, well that's another issue. But with regard to BD and the warranty: If you look on Ebay at all the BD stores, or supposed stores, you'll see that they have a pretty good customer satisfaction rating. They have to. That is one good thing about the internet. If you have a problem with someone, well, you can let the world know about it. Just like the guy who reviewed the Felt bike on the reveiw part of this site. He said his frame cracked in a year. So, according to the Felt warranty, if your frame cracks it's your frame. Not trying to flame Felt. I liked their bike just not their local outlet or their warranty.

Oh, yeah, and about BD just buying the Motobecane name. I knew going in that these guys had nothing to do with the old Motobecane. But that is nothing new. Back in the mid-70's, yes, I'm that old, I bought my first 10 speed to use as a bicycle messenger in NYC. I had a choice between a Motobecane and a Windsor. I picked the Windsor because it had steel rims and I wasn't sure how well the Motobecane's alloy wheels would hold up. I always thought the Windsor was an English bike until one day I flipped it over to do some work on it and notice that it was "Hecho en Mexico." 

And while I'm at it I would add that wikipedia says that the Motobecanes are old Fuji's but, unless the Motos are built on pre-2004 Fuji frames for which I cannot find geometry, this does not appear to be the case.

I hope I didn't miss anything. It's a long post, that's for sure. Don't flame me too badly. I don't live in Houston or Dallas and am nothing to Bikes Direct but a customer. 

See ya.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

No, nobody here is going to accuse you of being a shill.


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## mayukawa (Mar 14, 2006)

Hmmmm....so your average speed increased by 7mph, huh?


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

Big Bad John said:


> No, nobody here is going to accuse you of being a shill.



Why would anyone.

At some point we all post a thread full of inconsistency, claiming every LBS is full of snobs that refuse to talk to people with only a mere $1600 to spend, suggesting that Felt sucks and sighting 7 MPH speed gains.

Happens all the time.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

mayukawa said:


> Hmmmm....so your average speed increased by 7mph, huh?


After all the difference between a 20lb bike and a 15lb one is huge...if the rider is a mouse.


hmmmmmmm.

PS-the the OP about Wiki, "do you belive everything you read on teh Ei|\|t3Rw3bs?"


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

Big Bad John said:


> No, nobody here is going to accuse you of being a shill.


I could have bought from any of the online dealers and done so for the exact same reasons and posted that here and I guess that would make me a shill for the likes of RScycles, Performance, or Colorado Cyclist?


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

mayukawa said:


> Hmmmm....so your average speed increased by 7mph, huh?


I had been riding at an avg speed of 15 mph and killing myself to do that on a 26 lb Schwinn. And okay, the 7 mph increas is wrong. I did that the other day but not on a very long ride. Actually I guess I'd have to say it's more like 5 mph.


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

Lifelover said:


> Why would anyone.
> 
> At some point we all post a thread full of inconsistency, claiming every LBS is full of snobs that refuse to talk to people with only a mere $1600 to spend, suggesting that Felt sucks and sighting 7 MPH speed gains.
> 
> Happens all the time.


Glad to hear that I'm putting this information on the right site. And actually if you read the review section of this web site you will find where someone cracked their one-year old Felt. I just read it, that's all.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2006)

Lifelover said:


> Why would anyone.
> 
> At some point we all post a thread full of inconsistency, claiming every LBS is full of snobs that refuse to talk to people with only a mere $1600 to spend, suggesting that Felt sucks and sighting 7 MPH speed gains.
> 
> Happens all the time.


You SAW a speed gain going by??

What did it look like??


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

toomanybikes said:


> You SAW a speed gain going by??
> 
> What did it look like??


It look exactly like a Fuji Team!


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Your recount is at once both touching and inspiring. It makes me want to open another Explorer window and buy a Le Champion, _right now._ You see, I too hate LBSs and if criminal mischief wasn't illegal I'd be throwing bricks through the front windows of evey one that's ever hooked me up with a teenaged saleman thinking that bikes are named after some hill in France. Dumb-ass kids piss me off even more than the stores they work in.

But back to my impending Le Champion. I can only dream of sharing the joy, as I'm sitting on the 26th floor of a hotel in Shanghai and I don't think they'll ship it to me here. Even if they would, I don't have my shoes and helmet with me.

Thanks though for sharing - it's meant a great deal to someone lonely on the other side of the world.

Oh yea - enjoy that new bike!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

terry b said:


> Your recount is at once both touching and inspiring. It makes me want to open another Explorer window and buy a Le Champion, _right now._ You see, I too hate LBSs and if criminal mischief wasn't illegal I'd be throwing bricks through the front windows of evey one that's ever hooked me up with a teenaged saleman thinking that bikes are named after some hill in France. Dumb-ass kids piss me off even more than the stores they work in.
> 
> But back to my impending Le Champion. I can only dream of sharing the joy, as I'm sitting on the 26th floor of a hotel in Shanghai and I don't think they'll ship it to me here. Even if they would, I don't have my shoes and helmet with me.
> 
> ...


ba dum---Crash


yer welcome folks, he'll be here all night &etc.


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## croswell1 (Feb 19, 2005)

*Appreciate your post..............*

and sorry about your bad experiences with the bike shops you visited. The Motobcane, and especially the Ultegra 10 components should serve you well and give you lots of riding pleasure. :thumbsup:


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

terry b said:


> Your recount is at once both touching and inspiring.
> 
> You see, I too hate LBSs and if criminal mischief wasn't illegal I'd be throwing bricks through the front windows of evey one that's ever hooked me up with a teenaged saleman thinking that bikes are named after some hill in France. Dumb-ass kids piss me off even more than the stores they work in.
> 
> Thanks though for sharing - it's meant a great deal to someone lonely on the other side of the world.


I'm so glad my account has inspired you, but to what? I don't hate my local LBS's. I did my best to buy from one but, alas, that was not to be. You, on the other hand, expose a darkness of thought and reasoning that is both troubling and concerning. Have you considered "anger management?" 

terry b, bricks are for building not for throwing. Now you get those nasty thoughts right out of your head. Think about something positive, calming. That's it. That's it. Whew. Thought for a moment we'd lost you.


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

Lifelover said:


> It look exactly like a Fuji Team!


Yeah, I read that on Wikipedia. But the geometry is off in a couple of places. And the material is different: aluminum but different types. But all I can find on the Fuji site is info going back to 2004 so the assumption could be right but I would like to verify that, if possible, before I tell someone it's a older Fuji frame with different decals.


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## colker1 (Jan 2, 2003)

and am nothing to Bikes Direct but a customer. 

See ya.[/QUOTE]

how much are they paying for this line of work? sounds like a lot of effort for a meager discount.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

tsalconoci4891 said:


> Yeah, I read that on Wikipedia. But the geometry is off in a couple of places. And the material is different: aluminum but different types. But all I can find on the Fuji site is info going back to 2004 so the assumption could be right but I would like to verify that, if possible, before I tell someone it's a older Fuji frame with different decals.



Another Wikipedia defination:

"iconoclast"
The more common meaning in current usage is that an iconoclast is a person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditional institutions, etc., as being based on error or superstition.[1]
Modern iconoclasts may carry out symbolic or quixotic acts of protest against authority figures, the connotation being that the iconoclast opposes the imposition of authority itself rather than any particular policy or action.


Are you attacking our cherished belief that BD Sucks?


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## Mdeth1313 (Nov 1, 2001)

*and this is why.....*

....I still use the bike shop I used when I lived 15 min away in NJ. Now I'm in upstate NY, about an hour and 15 min away. Once you find a place that's reliable, honest, willing to work w/ you and does quality work at a fair price, you get spoiled. 
I tried 4 or 5 shops in my area- they either mis-diagnosed, did shoddy work, didn't have the time for me (or my bike) or wanted to charge me a fortune-- on that one, I know the difference between mail order and LBS prices- I know when I'm getting taken for a ride.
Most of the work I can do myself, if I can't, it's off to NJ-- the best part is when I"m there, these people bring in junker bikes and they get the same red carpet treatment, even w/ all the sick Litespeeds, Cervelos, Giants, Colnagos and god know what else hanging in that place.
buy from whoever treats you right!


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Please post a picture of your new Moto...I would love to see it...

or better yet, how about a ride report?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

i had written a lengthy response, but i'll post this instead...

i haven't felt comfortable in any of my LBS's - some are well meaning but clueless and other's try to sell you carbon orgasms every chance they get. the one store that is well known for snobbery actually did me right - and i went there as a last resort. and the best part is they have been very helpful and eager to make me happy.

i mail ordered in 2001 and thought i'd have to do it again - glad the LBS has come around and i thank the internet for that. so thanks for the cleverly disguised marketing or the satisfied customer posting - so much of the LBS comments are on point. 

i'm so independent, i pay retail minus 10-20% and don't wear team kit :wink:


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## handsomerob (Oct 5, 2005)

tsalconoci4891 said:


> Glad to hear that I'm putting this information on the right site. And actually if you read the review section of this web site you will find where someone cracked their one-year old Felt. I just read it, that's all.


 About 30 miles into the ride on Saturday I got behind a big guy on a 05 Felt. I told him that something was funny about the way his rear wheel was pivoting on the axle when he made any steering input. 40 miles later when we were back at the shop and he was going to get a squeeky BB looked at as well as the tire. Off our bikes, he pushed the wheel laterally to see if he could reproduce what I was talking about...... it did. COMPLETELY cracked right chain stay Probably put 70 miles on a rear wheel connected to a tripod I don't know whether to be impressed that he didn't have a catastrophic failure with only one chainstay or just very skeptical about Felt carbon frames.


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## colker1 (Jan 2, 2003)

one of the wonderfull coincidences is that all these authenthic, spontaneous , personal accounts of motobecane happy buyings come from guys who always have less than 10 posts. incredible isn't it?


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## Vetallist (Jul 4, 2006)

I, personally, can't see myself buying a Motobecane in the foreseeable future because I know that whatever money I might save by getting one I will have to spend at LBS on service, and possibly much more because I currently suck at wrenching.

However, I did read quite a few Motobecane/BD threads on this forum, and I have not seen a single word of constructive criticism towards them, and if I missed it kindly point me to one. 
For all I know, all their bike components, except for frames, come from well established brands. And I don't know much about frames, but I do know that 90% of them on U.S. market are made in Mao Zedong sweatshops, so I don't know how much difference could there really be between frames made with the same material and geometry.


I applaud Bikesdirect for their marketing strategy, the only mistake they made is that instead of sending shills to this forum they should've come out openly, explained what product they sell, and why people should buy it by having an open conversation with forum members. They could've gotten valuable feedback and improved their product to boot. Other bike manufacturers could do the same btw - I am sure everyone here has questions to ask and suggestions to make to their bike's manufacturer.


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Please post a picture of your new Moto...I would love to see it...
> 
> or better yet, how about a ride report?


I don't have a picture. But here's a ride report: I have the frame with the carbon seat stays. This frame is very stiff. I don't know if the stays help dampen vibrations or not. My old Schwinn is smoother, that's for sure. Where I ride, 99% on rec trails, there are tons of pavement breaks. I hate pavement breaks. The rear end of the bike will bounce sometimes. 

But as I said, though apparently few actually believe it, this is my first real road bike. It seems to ride as well as any of the other bikes I test rode, except for the Specialized Roubaix which, for some reason, just did not feel right. Also when I cranked the Felt I could flex the bottom bracket and cause the chain ring to rub the derailleur. 

I will also add this, at my own peril, that I wanted the Felt. I sold myself on that bike even before I rode it. But, as I said originally, the LBS doesn't have much of an after-the-sale service reputation.

I will also add one more thing. At least once per week and usually twice a week, I throroughly inspect the frame of this much maligned bike for any flaws, new or inherent. So far so good.


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

*Just some final thoughts before moving on*

A few years ago I took up downhill skiing. I rented some gear and wasn't very good. But I liked it. I decided that I wanted to get my own set up and I bought skis over the internet, bought boots at a ski swap, and bought bindings at the local REI. It was a cheap set up. I couldn't see spending big bucks on gear that might end up gathering dust in the garage. But the thing was that gear got me skiing. I now have a better set up and I've got about $1000 into it. Thing is in another year or two I'll need to upgrade and that's okay because I'll get plenty of use out of that set up, too.

My point is that I now have a decent bike. Sure, it's not Ti or carbon and sure it's not from a status manufacturer, but it's got me riding. I've hit 26 mph on this thing on the flats and for someone who used to struggle trying to hit 18 mph well it's a rush. I'm following Eric Harr's "Ride Fast" plan (and yes I expect more flames for that because you guys probably think he's a hack, oh, and sure, I'm a shill for him too, I guess) with the idea in mind that I could enter some races next spring. So this bike has me riding a lot. I've actually cut back on the miles since I started Harr's plan. Anyway, I'm riding. A couple of years down the road I'll probably want a new bike. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow so it's hard for me to say where I'll get that new bike. I'm thinking now that I might want to build it myself. But that's just right now.

I'm old enough to remember life before big box stores. Back eons ago, service was a given. You were not profiled. Now it seems that service is a dying art and I wanted to illustrate that. Fortunately we now have the internet and if we don't like the way we're treated locally we can buy elswhere. I could care less about some of these LBS's. In a couple of them I was treated as if I was a nuisance. 

I don't know what will happen between Bikes Direct and myself if I have a warranty issue. All the parts on the bike, besides the frame and the fork, are from Ritchey or Shimano. I don't know if BD will intercede in the event I have a problem with any of these parts. Nor do I know what to expect from BD should there be a problem with the frame or fork. Time will tell. One thing for sure, if I do have an issue that involves Bikes Direct and the issue is resolved satsifactorily you can bet I won't post that here. Why bother? I'll just be accused of being a shill. No fun in that. 

So once again, my point in starting this thread was to illustrate how some LBS's handle customers and how the internet has empowered us mere mortals.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

*Preaching to the Chior*



Vetallist said:


> I, personally, can't see myself buying a Motobecane in the foreseeable future because I know that whatever money I might save by getting one I will have to spend at LBS on service, and possibly much more because I currently suck at wrenching.
> 
> However, I did read quite a few Motobecane/BD threads on this forum, and I have not seen a single word of constructive criticism towards them, and if I missed it kindly point me to one.
> For all I know, all their bike components, except for frames, come from well established brands. And I don't know much about frames, but I do know that 90% of them on U.S. market are made in Mao Zedong sweatshops, so I don't know how much difference could there really be between frames made with the same material and geometry.
> ...


There has really never been any question in regards to the bikes. By all accounts they will perform just as well as any other bike in the price range. Hell any bike $700 up would provide damn near all of us with enough performance.

Many other bike companies have posted in the past. However, in the long run, there is no upside for them or BD to do it. Some people will love them for it and others will b!tch and whine about everything they say. Unless they want to host the site there is no significant upside to participating and you can ask Tony Ellsworth for the truth about it.

It comes down to the person you want to give you money too. Based on the format of their website, the tone of their ebay adds, and not being able to talk with anyone directly, I would just not want to bless them with my hard earned money.

If someone is looking to get a killer deal and is willing to do the researched required for any internet bike purchase, used is the way to go. In the used market $1400 will get you a bike that will perform just as well (if not better) from a company that has history in the biking culture.

There is not another internet specific bike store that generates the response that BD gets in threads like this. Most of them get overwhelmingly positive reviews. I just couldn't see myself taking the leap of faith to send them my money. Cause in the end every internet purchase is a leap of faith.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

*Motobecane bikesdirect warranty frames and assorted topics*

Mr. tsalconoci4891, thank you for your purchase. I am not sure which le Champion you purchased but I am sure you will love it.

Your detailed purchase experience was bought to my attention by an employee who forwarded the link. You bought up several issues that I would like to address but I do not know your e-mail address. If you wish to have more details than I provide here, just e-mail us.

This is my first entry on roadbikereview and will probably be my last. My attitude is that our products speak for themselves. HOWEVER, since I strongly believe in our company my entry here may sound like a sales pitch. I understand that; so I will try to tone it down.

SHOPS – I am very sorry you have trouble in your area with bike shops. You are not alone, unfortunately. I own several bike shops. Over the last 30 years my shops, my staff, and the bicycle business has changed a lot. Most of the changes in equipment have been for the better. Most of the changes in the retail shop business have been for the worse. I think all ‘old-hands’ in the cycle business would agree.
For years I owned the largest chain of bike shops in the country. And I was very proud of the service and value I delivered to customers. Today, I only own the number of shops that I think I can maintain my ideal of customer support in. 
There is not enough room here to discuss the issue of what has happened to the retail specialty store business. Some may think the internet is the problem. That is clearly not the case; the problems in bike shops started in 1982 before the internet had any impact. The summary is; owning a bike shop is not as much fun as it used to be.
I would like to add, all customers should get great service. But my major concern has never been that the bike enthusiast who spends a lot and understands his equipment is short changed. My major concern has & is that the mom who wants tp spend $300 to have a bike & baby seat to safely take her kid for a ride can not get anyone’s attention. My employees know that I expect customers who really need our help will get it.

WARRANTY – Mr tsalconoci4891, the main reason I am writing this is your concern over warranty. Secondly I am writing over your concern about frames. Warranty is an important feature on a bike. Bikesdirect gives full warranty support on every bike we sell, period. If there is a defect on a bike we sold, we will fix it. If there is defect on a bike we sold and it is beyond the stated time limit of the manufacturer, we will still fix it.
As you know, it is easy to have UPS pickup things and bring them to us. And easy for us to send them. We handle any and all warranty issues quickly and always give the customer the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I would say 50% of the issues we fix are not defects anyway.
The truth is high grade bikes from anyone have very very few defects. In addition, I always pick the highest level of item in bike spec where there is a choice [told you it might sound like a sales pitch]. But think about it, handling warranty issues is expense; picking the high grade part vs the lower is a slight difference. I also like using name brand items from Shimano, FSA, Ritchey, American Classic, Sram, where I know the support is solid. 
The chance you will ever have a defect is way less than 1 in 1000. The chance that we would handle it if you do have a defect is 100%.

FRAME – Mr tsalconoci4891, the frame you have is from Kinesis. Unless your bike is a le Champion SL; in which case it is a frame from Alu-Mate that we share with Fuji. Le Champion models use the most expensive aluminum with carbon SS frame made by Kinesis. The SL model is made by Ideal [owner of Fuji] and shares the frame of the old Fuji Team SL. I like staying with proven frames unless there is a reason to change. Both of these frames are proven by thousands of happy customers.
Kinesis is the largest frame maker in the orient. Their frames are used by just about everyone. They manufacture in a large plant in China and a smaller specialty plant in Taiwan. Le Champion frames are from Taiwan. We have never seen a defect on a le Champion frame. If your frame is the first, it will be replaced for free just like any other customer. I will not sell a bike without free lifetime warranty frame defect protection for the customer.
Bicycle Frames are one of the marketing successes of the specialty bike business. Manufacturers have marketed the frame as the most expensive and technical item on the bike. However, most frames are very inexpensive compared to cranks, wheels, shifters, etc. This is not to say the frames are not valuable; but the way they are produced brings the cost way down. {Frames are the highest markup item sold by any manufacturer; many are sold at over 10 times their cost} 
Most Aluminum Frames are $20 to $40 OEM, most Aluminum Frames with carbon rear SS are $60 to $80 OEM, most full carbon frames are $230 to $300 OEM. Compared to a nice set of wheels or cranks; the frame is easy on the designer’s decision process. In my case it is easy, I always take the most expense frame in its class. {the entire long story of my attitude involves Phil Wood, a guy who wrecked his tandum I sold him in ft worth, a bunch of lawyers, and several other shops and insurance companies. I can just say I will never be put in a position to answer a question about why I decided to save $10 on lower grade specs.}
Bottom line on frames and other components for me is clear. If I can save $100 a bike by not running an 800 line and put it in better equipment, I will. If I can spec a carbon frame from Taiwan instead of China and pay for it by savings on operating expenses, I will. And this attitude has always been the same; even before the internet. In the ‘old days’ I used to sell full Campy Record bikes with Colnago, Mercian, Viner, etc frames for $995. I was about $1000 under other shops; all of the discount was due to high volume, excellent buying, and low overhead. {This may also sound like a sales pitch; but it is just true. Even if you dislike Wal-Mart as I do; they are lower priced on CanadaDry GingerAle than other retailers; Why? high volume, excellent buying, low overhead}.


Mr tsalconoci4891, I am glad you bought a Motobecane. I have been involved in Motobecane design since 1979 and I very happy with the current offerings. I do not think there is any bike in our price ranges that give you more bang for the buck. 
Your choice over a Felt is to my benefit and I think yours. But I would like to comment on Felt as responses here are not completely as I would see things. FELTs are great bikes; everytime I see Bill I tell him his bikes look great. I think he is doing a great job. Felt bikes are high quality and good value. 
Felt’s aluminum frames are Kinesis, I do not know who makes the Carbon fiber ones {I think ADK, which is an excellent builder}]. I am sure Bill would never spec a risky low grade frame to save $10 and thus the comments about frame failures on Felts should not be taken as indicative of the brand’s quality. I am certain the chance of a Felt frame failure is exactly equal to the chance of any other brand having the same. Plus Bill is a standup guy and I am sure will handle any true defect professionally and fairly.
Plus Bill’s best employee Penny is the only person I have ever let watch my kids at the bike show out of my sight. And I am the most overprotective parent on earth.

Mr tsalconoci4891, you and I know that any comments here about you being a so-called shill are completely ground-less. And any one who knows me knows I would never pay someone to sound off about my business; I would put the funds in better specs which can speak for themselves.

mike Spratt
CEO - bikesdirect


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

*Repositioning earlier post*

A few years ago I took up downhill skiing. I rented some gear and wasn't very good. But I liked it. I decided that I wanted to get my own set up and I bought skis over the internet, bought boots at a ski swap, and bought bindings at the local REI. It was a cheap set up. I couldn't see spending big bucks on gear that might end up gathering dust in the garage. But the thing was that gear got me skiing. I now have a better set up and I've got about $1000 into it. Thing is in another year or two I'll need to upgrade and that's okay because I'll get plenty of use out of that set up, too.

My point is that I now have a decent bike. Sure, it's not Ti or carbon and sure it's not from a status manufacturer, but it's got me riding. I've hit 26 mph on this thing on the flats and for someone who used to struggle trying to hit 18 mph well it's a rush. I'm following Eric Harr's "Ride Fast" plan (and yes I expect more flames for that because you guys probably think he's a hack, oh, and sure, I'm a shill for him too, I guess) with the idea in mind that I could enter some races next spring. So this bike has me riding a lot. I've actually cut back on the miles since I started Harr's plan. Anyway, I'm riding. A couple of years down the road I'll probably want a new bike. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow so it's hard for me to say where I'll get that new bike. I'm thinking now that I might want to build it myself. But that's just right now.

I'm old enough to remember life before big box stores. Back eons ago, service was a given. You were not profiled. Now it seems that service is a dying art and I wanted to illustrate that. Fortunately we now have the internet and if we don't like the way we're treated locally we can buy elswhere. I could care less about some of these LBS's. In a couple of them I was treated as if I was a nuisance.

I don't know what will happen between Bikes Direct and myself if I have a warranty issue. All the parts on the bike, besides the frame and the fork, are from Ritchey or Shimano. I don't know if BD will intercede in the event I have a problem with any of these parts. Nor do I know what to expect from BD should there be a problem with the frame or fork. Time will tell. One thing for sure, if I do have an issue that involves Bikes Direct and the issue is resolved satsifactorily you can bet I won't post that here. Why bother? I'll just be accused of being a shill. No fun in that.

So once again, my point in starting this thread was to illustrate how some LBS's handle customers and how the internet has empowered us mere mortals.


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## BShow (Jun 30, 2006)

IIRC, this frame that you bought is the exact same frame that a lot of other companies use, including Felt. I forget who makes it, but I think its Kinesis. Those motobecane bikes are a smokin' deal. If I didnt have a good LBS, I would really consider buying one.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> mike Spratt
> CEO - bikesdirect


Hey, how about a phone number?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Mike, first of all thank you for taking the time to respond. You offer some excellent insight into the industry..If your employees that monitor this forum would only do the same and be open about their association with your company, I believe most the BD controversy would die...


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## blandin (Jan 9, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> . . . mike Spratt, CEO - bikesdirect


I sent Mike Spratt a PM regarding his post that I am copying below at his request. He has indicated he would like to respond to it in the forum. I have made reference to another cycling forum I also frequent, so I apologize in advance if that ruffles any feathers. That being said, my PM and Pratt's response follow.

Dear Mr. Pratt,

I purchased a Motobecane Super Mirage from you in 1998 and rode if for several years with zero problems and eventually sold it, which I regret at this point because it was a handsome lugged steel frame that I wish I still had. Just last week I encouraged a close friend to buy your Immortal Force special offering, which she did and we are both anxiously awaiting the bike to arrive.

With that background in mind, I would like to share some thoughts with you.

First off, I greatly appreciate your detailed explanation of your sources and philosophy on putting together your bike offerings, it puts to rest much speculation that I have seen here and on bikeforums.net. I would highly recommend you provide the same/similar information in a post at bikeforums.net as well.

Secondly, both here and on bikeforums newbie posters with no other comments ever made in the forums will pop up with bikes directs related posts along the lines of, "Looking for a new bike, what do you guys think of the "fill in the blank" at www.bikesdirect.com. This begins a long flame filled thread with shill accusations and statements that BD bikes are crap and there is no warranty. You state that you are not behind these posts, and I take people at their word unless proven otherwise and have no reason to believe you aren't being truthful.

Bottom line, I think you provide a valuable service to the cycling consumer, and from my first hand experience, I believe your offerings are high quality and good value for the money. I think you should be more proactive in defining your business model and practices as you did in your post here to forestall the naysayers and the damage they maybe causing your business. I am certain that no matter how many bikes you are selling now, that you would like to sell more!

I will close by asking you once again to post a similar statement at bikeforums.net where you will find numerous members who own your bikes, and sometimes more than one. These owners make a good case for your bikes but there positive messages get lost in the din of dissension from the BD detractors.

Best regards,

Brad Landin
Sacramento, CA 


Thank you for your message. I am not sure I am using the correct way to respond. I have never been on cyclingforums.net and I am unsure how to sign up. I will enlist help from my staff.

I have heard complaints from customers that they are criticized on forums for buying our bikes or shopping online in general. I just assumed that negative comments were from dealers who do not like competing with the Internet.

Could I ask you to post your message on roadbikereview - so I can respond there? Or to let me post and respond to it?

By the way, your friend will love the Immortal Force. It is a very fine bike at a fantastic price. And the Immortal Pro special were ran has resulted in a sell out very quickly.

Thanks for your support
mike


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

*Branded for all eternity*

This has certainly turned out to be an interesting thread. I had originally located this site as a result of a google search for reviews of Felt Bicycles. After I purchased my bike from BD, I posted a question here, late July, about a chain noise. That turned out to be a derailleur issue and was easily resolved..

I came back here looking for answers to training questions and bike parts. I found all the flames about BD and decided to post the reasons why I chose them over our LBS's. And now I see that Mike Spratt has become involved. Well, that's probably a good thing. Someone needed to clear the air and all the little tidbits and insights into the bike industry made for some juicey reading. I always knew where the Shimano and Ritchey parts came from and now I know the frame's origin. Good stuff.

Meanwhile back at the ranch...I put 26 miles on my bike this A.M. I'm doing this Eric Harr training program so I was riding at a relatively low speed, based on my heart rate, on the way out. On the way back I just had to push it. I got up close to 25 mph but just could not hold it. I settled for 22 mph for most of the last several miles. My goal is to be able to reach and hold 25 mph for 2 hours. When, and/or if, I can do that, I should be ready to race next spring. But you have to know that I ain't no spring chicken. And I couldn't help but notice that Dave Millar won that time trial today at an avg speed close to (gee, I hope I did that conversion correctly) 30 mph. That's not for me. I can't imagine riding that fast on any bike, (except down the hill) not even that Pinarello that they're giving away at Bicycling. 

So this is probably it for me on this thread, but not this site. I do intend to stick around. I do intend to ask questions about parts, upgrades, and training as I move toward 25 mph. And, though I know this will fall on deaf ears, I'm not shilling for anybody...I just happen to like my ride.


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## fran2537 (Aug 28, 2006)

*Bikes direct customer*

i too bought a MB from BD recently. am happy with it and just uploaded a photo of it to the other thread in this forum.

I was intrigued to see the response from BD's CEO. While i am a happy customer so far and found their response to my emails to be swift and informative for the most part-- a few stumbles like when i asked for sizing info and they sent me to the MB website when they could have just as easily answered the question.

I too would like to see a better customer service hiearchy in place in case i have a problem. how much can an "800" cost? they already have people manning the computers to answer emails, why not a phone or two.

I have not had the misfortunes that salconoci4891routinely support my LBS in lower westchester county which i think does a great job--bought 1 mtb and 2 kids bikes as well as plenty of service work. but they couldnt match the price of the MB. i may come to regret to the BD purchase or i may love the bike and get as much fun out of it as i did the used cannondale i bought when i moved from MTB'ng to road. only time will tell. i will committ to updating the forum here--with i hope continued good news but with full disclosure of any bad experiences as well.


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## cpbrowne (Sep 3, 2006)

I see in another thread that site owner Gregg has asked for a truce in the BD-LBS debate. I could not agree more. I've spent a great deal of time reading through several forums trying to seperate fact from fiction, and the flames on both sides are just not helpful to those like me who are trying to make a decision. 

But enough editorial. I thought I would post in what might be excruciating detail, my experience with my purchase decision thus far. Yes, this is my first post, but no - I don't have an axe to grind eithe way. I'll start by saying that I currently own 2 bikes - a '05 Specialized FSR Elite Disc MTB (purchased at a great LBS - I got the service contract as well) and an '89 Cannondale R500 (Black Lightning). Up to now, I hadn't felt the need to upgrade my road bike, as I live in Marin County, and China Camp, amongst other MTB rides beckoned. Recently a buddy of mine bought a very nice Trek 5200, and kept bugging me to go riding with him. I pulled out the old C-Dale and went on a couple of 40 milers with him. The bike is pretty stiff, and I felt pretty beat up at the end of those rides, and the gearing wasn't all that condusive for hills. First I thought about upgrading components and perhaps getting a carbon fork to smooth out the ride, but I was kind of drooling over the Trek. I was a bit concerned about carbon fiber bikes, having heard a few things about flexing, etc, as I'm 6'4" and about 215. So I go online to get educated. I check out eBay for used Treks. Google takes me to this site, and I start reading reviews (why Bicycling Mag doesn't archive them is beyond me) and get some idea of costs and customer satisfaction. You click around enough and you run into the HOT DEALS section where I checked out all the e-tailers, including BikesDirect where I see their Motobecane deals. One cannot help but have a healthy dose of skepticism when checking out that site - prices that are so low that one assumes there must be something fishy, inferior product, no phone number, etc - things that have been rehashed all to many times in this and other forums. The reason for my knowledge of this is that, because of the prices, one is pretty much compelled to seek more information on the quality of the offering.

So, back to the forums I go - where I find maybe one in 10-20 postings has any information of value. Most postings are either by shills or haters, with relatively few folks offering real first hand experience with the product or the e-tailer. One has to do a LOT of reading in order to try an make the best decision for THEM. Folks all have different needs, and a solution for one might not be the best for another. I figured I would chronicle my experience attempting as best I can to clearly state both facts and opinions, and be clear about which is which.

After doing my review, I decided on the Motobecane Immortal Force. I was quoted $1095 for a CF frame and a 105/Ultegra Triple blend drive train. This price was available for the first 10 days of this month. Nothing against my LBS, but for me, that price was good enough to justify the risk of going with Moto and BD. My downside, IMHO, would be that I could take the components and put them on the C-Dale. Like I said, I like my LBS, but I figured that for the price difference, and that I can wrench a little bit, and that I was prepared to deal with any humiliation for having purchased on line but assembled at my LBS, it justified the risk. The answer is yes, I am a cheap SOB.

At first, I was stoked - I thought I was getting a killer deal. Then another buddy of mine, who has a friend that is a Specialized rep, got a Roubaix with Dura Ace for about $1300. I asked Iif I could be his friend too, but to no avail. I mention this only to point out that if he can get a bike at that price on a hook-up, that all of a sudden the BD stuff doesn't seem that crazy. Bitterness set in. Then, more bitterness - Friday afternoon I noticed that BD dropped the price on the Immortal Force w/ full Ultegra to $1295, but they only had 50cm in black or white and 62cm in white. I wanted to change my order the the white 62cm IF, one for the better component group from only $200 more and that it would ship before the Pro (The IP was scheduled to ship in October). I emailed Friday afternoon and sweated it out over the weekend. Finally Anne Johnston at BD responded that my order had been changed. Stoked again!

BD reissued the invoice, with the change in price, but still had the IP as the description. I had to email back to confirm that I was in fact getting the IF, and my response came fairly quickly. I had a couple of more emails regarding shipping, and Anne eventually included a number to call if I had any questions. The bike is currently en route.

So I fully acknowledge that I'm taking a bit of a risk here. Might the frame be crap? Might it not fit right? Might dealing with any problems with BD be a royal pain? We'll see. I'll take photos of the bike when it arrives and chronicle my experience with the set up and riding impressions. For me, I'll be happy if the bike shows up generally as advertised, doesn't require an excessive amount of wrenching, a long ride don't leave me feel beat up, I feel reasonalbly safe at speed, and that I don't experience some kind of failure that leads to injury of my person. If any of those things happen, I'll be reporting them back here. If I have any regrets about not going through an LBS, I'll try to be honest about that - i.e. if fitting is a problem. Likewise, if my experience is good, I'll also be happy to sing the praises of the manufacturer and the e-tailer.

I also recognize that there are probably some things in my selection process I could have done better (like test ride the bike!). Please no flame or shill accusations - I really just want to provide some (reasonably) objective information to help folks make an informed decision.

CPB


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

There is no way to compare apples here, but when I went out on my test rides the Giant entry-level carbon (with 105 grupo and priced at $1850 +/- a smidgen) had the smoothest ride of all. But that was just in the parking lot of the strip mall where the bike shop was located. I rode two Giants that same afternoon, the other had a full aluminum frame. The difference was jarring. Hopefully you'll be reporting back about just how smooth that IF rides.

And do post some pics and a ride report. I'm 145 lbs so flex is not something I'd be thinking about on any bike. It'll be interesting to hear if that is an issue. 

My 54cm MB le Champ, with the included 12oz pedals, wieghs in right around 18 lbs. I bet, even at 62cm, the IF with what ever clipless pedals you use will come in under 19 lbs.

The assmebly isn't that tough. I had to attach the front brake. The front wheel. Had to put on the headset and the stem. Had to attach the handlebars to the stem. The handlebars were already wrapped and had the shifters mounted. Then the seat tube and seat. Then You've got to attach the cables. I think both derailleurs and the rear brake were already attached. I think. I do remember cutting the cable for the front brake. 

The only issue I've seen mentioned was a wheel that was not true. Mine were okay.

I rode my bike for a couple of days and then took it to a mechanic and he tweaked the derailleurs. That's all it's needed so far.

I will go pass the 800 mile mark before this week is through. 

And one more thing, with that Ultegra 6600 10 grupo, you might find that hills your used to riding don't seem to be as steep as you remember.


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## geraldatwork (Jul 15, 2005)

tsalconoci4891 said:


> There is no way to compare apples here, but when I went out on my test rides the Giant entry-level carbon (with 105 grupo and priced at $1850 +/- a smidgen) had the smoothest ride of all. But that was just in the parking lot of the strip mall where the bike shop was located. I rode two Giants that same afternoon, the other had a full aluminum frame. The difference was jarring. Hopefully you'll be reporting back about just how smooth that IF rides.
> 
> And do post some pics and a ride report. I'm 145 lbs so flex is not something I'd be thinking about on any bike. It'll be interesting to hear if that is an issue.
> 
> ...


I had a similar assembly experience as you when I got my Windsor a little over a year ago. The main difference I didn't have to install the head set. Are you sure that's what you meant. I could do everything except install the front brake because I couldn't crimp the cable and I was unsure how to tape the handlebars.. But for $30 bucks the LBS installed the brake and tape and made minor adjustments to the bike. One thing I have found a little to my surprise is the LB shops have no problem working on my bike eventhough they know I got it on the internet. I was a little concerned about that prior to purchase. A photo of the bike is in my user gallery.

So far I have had the bike 13 months and after this evenings ride have 2599 miles on the bike. Tonight I did a 27 mile ride at 17.3 mph with 1248 feet of climbing. For me at least that is one of my best solo rides. I know there are a lot of better riders out there though.


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## tsalconoci4891 (Jul 30, 2006)

Gerald, about that assembly. Actually, now that I think about it, I'm confusing the steering tube spacers with the head set, I think. Not bike mechanic by any means. Yeah, I just unscrewed the cap on the top of the steering tube, slid the stem over that, put the cap back on, cinch the stem down tight, and attached the handlebars.

When I got the bike I had two big concerns: Would the wheels be true and would the handlebars be wrapped? As soon as I pulled everything out of the box, I knew I was in good shape.

And I remain...


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## cpbrowne (Sep 3, 2006)

Just as a point of clarification to my initial post, the bike I first put a deposit on was the Immortal Pro (105/Ultegra blend) not the Force. I later upgraded to the full Ultegra Force for $1295.


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## whitney (Jun 19, 2006)

CPB,

We are in very similar situations regarding the Motobecane Immortal Force. I too ordered a black 59cm Immortal Pro (IP) when it was on sale and then decided to purchase the 62cm Immortal Force (IF) at $1295. It was just too good of deal to pass up for the upgraded wheels and components. 

I'm sort of in between a 59cm and a 62cm bike. Either will work if I switch out a stem and play around with the seat etc. I already received the IP and I had it professionally assembled at a bike shop. The bike arrived on time and in perfect condition. There were no hassles concerning shipping or the condition of the bike. It is exactly what Bikes Direct advertised. It is a beautiful bike. Even the people at the bike shop were amazed that I purchased this bike near $1000 and without tax or shipping. The shop owner who assmbled the bike actually was complimentary regarding the bike but seemed a little irritated that he could in no way compete with the price I got. However, I realize I'm not gonna be getting any free service from any local shops.

I'm not sure if you are aware but the Immortal series frame is identical to the frame and fork sold by Louis Garneau last year for over $2500--just for the frame and fork alone. Many people who already have this bike simply love it. Go to the Immortal Force thread at bikeforums.net for a lot more detail.

You need not worry about the quality of the bike or it's ride characteristics. I went for a short ride up a local mountain (Mt. Diablo for those who know No. California rides) yesterday and it rode beautifully. It is a much more comfortable bike than even my scandium frame with carbon stays. Although it's comfortable, the frame feels stiff and the bike climbs well. It also did not feel at all twitchy when descending. The American Classic wheels are also very nice. They are a new 2007 model so there are no reviews of these wheels on the Internet yet. 

I know I'll probably be accused for being a shill but honestly I'm not. I just want to relay to you that my experience with Bikes Direct has been painless and this product seems to me to be an incredible value especially at these sale prices.

My only task now is to sell my IP before the IF gets here. Two essentially identical bikes, one black, and one white is a bit much. So, if anyone is interested in a professionally-assembled, brand-new, black 59cm Immortal Pro at the original sale price of $1095 let me know.


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

*Mike*



bikesdirect said:


> I have been talking all week with my employees about this forum and the shill issue.
> And have had a small problem due to the fact that all I talk about is bikes and my personal hero; the first American - Franklin. Therefore, I have had the Silence Dogood letters agrument thrown in my face more than once.
> 
> But the problem seems to be LIARs such as the "Mr Scuzzo". Plus people who make 'educated guesses' about things they just know nothing about.
> ...



Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to address the concerns regarding the shilling on this site. I have never ordered a BD bike, and I may/may not in the future. The concerns from some of the established posters as I see them, seem to focus around a thread developing about a newbie needing a bike. He then asks an opinion about online bike purchasing in order to save money. Many of us will respond, as I would, that for a FIRST bike purchase...it's probably not a great idea, as he probably does not know his way around the bike as far as fitting, and wrenching. He will also require a lot of other gear. To this end, establishing a relationship with an LBS is probably the better thing to do. Is it the ONLY way to go....of course not. Well, the thread will go along nicely, until someone with <5 posts chimes in that BD is the only way to go that all of their merchandise is perfect and they attain greater speeds then possible on any other bike and all kinds of outlandish claims. This is where the hostility starts. Personally, I have ordered a bike or two from my LBS, and I have ordered online-used in the past. I, however, can do almost all of my own wrenching, and IF NOT, I have a good relationship with 2 LBS's in town, and I know EXACTLY what my size, and desires are as far as geometry, and stiffness characteristics. I would never malign BD, as I have not ordered from them, I am considering doing so in the future. I think the problem is people from BOTH sides who claim that one way is the ONLY way to go, and the other side is full of bs. If people would just look at this objectively, then most of extreme arguments might go the way of the dodo. Thanks again for your time.

Regards,

Michael


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## gregg (Oct 30, 2000)

Okay, that's it.

This thread is some good stuff, followed by some bad stuff, followed by more good stuff, then again into some bad stuff.

I'm locking this one up. Scuzzo and bd, you've both had some say here and I'm going to leave it at that. Any further discourse between you both, will have to occur elsewhere.

-gregg

(EDIT: some recent posts have been removed at the original poster's request. also some posts quoting said posts have also been removed.)


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