# Bruyneel smack talks Contador



## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

A pretty interesting article.

Certainly, Alberto is still learning, but Bruyneel takes a dig that maybe they can get back together when Contador is older and wiser. Somebody remind the Hog that Contador is one of the handful of riders to ever win all 3 Grand Tours. The guy's not even 27 yet and he's won 4 Grand Tours. 

The bitterness is showing from the Hog. Sure seems as though Contador handled himself with aplomb during the Tour. That whole mess about Contador claiming he won the Tour on his own, well, Zubeldia has already refuted that when he said Contador thanked his teammates personally each night.

Glad to see Contador is rid of the swine.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bruyneel-reflects-on-season-2009

Some interesting Contador stuff here:
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/07/alberto-contador-you-may-not-know.html


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Like LA and to a lesser extent AC, JB could use a lesson in STFU.


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## brentster (Jul 12, 2007)

I've always liked Johan.

My favorite quote:

"What Vinokourov and Kascheskin messed with isn't my mistake and except for those two there's nobody in Kazakhstan. Yes, three domestiques, including two I'm not trusting and a bunch of young guys who aren't ready for the Tour de France. *I'm being judged on the results and the international image of the team, not on the image of the team in a godforsaken country such as Kazakhstan."*


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

harlond said:


> Like LA and to a lesser extent AC, JB could use a lesson in STFU.


I don't know... it's a lot more fun when they all shoot their mouths off, even if it is bullshit sometimes.

Case in point: Glad to see Horner doing well, but it was more fun before he joined LA and JB, back when he would be much more candid.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

Like Bull Durham:

Crash Davis: It's time to work on your interviews. 
Ebby Calvin LaLoosh: My interviews? What do I gotta do? 
Crash Davis: You're gonna have to learn your clichés. You're gonna have to study them, you're gonna have to know them. They're your friends. Write this down: "We gotta play it one day at a time." 
Ebby Calvin LaLoosh: Got to play... it's pretty boring. 
Crash Davis: 'Course it's boring, that's the point. Write it down...


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

It's pretty obvious that someone has a bad case of the sour grapes. 

"Alberto still has much to learn."

Well, if he has lots to learn at this stage, then I'll be expecting a whole lot more GT wins from him in the future when he's learned more. I wonder what the Hog will be whining about by then?


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## SlowMo (Apr 18, 2006)

Ah, come on guys; give Johan a break. If anyone in the sport has earned the right to say it like it is, it's him. He's proven himself to have the right state his opinion, and he was AC's coach for a couple of years, remember? 

It's not like he's an outsider looking in.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

FondriestFan said:


> A pretty interesting article.
> 
> Certainly, Alberto is still learning, but Bruyneel takes a dig that maybe they can get back together when Contador is older and wiser. Somebody remind the Hog that Contador is one of the handful of riders to ever win all 3 Grand Tours. The guy's not even 27 yet and he's won 4 Grand Tours.
> 
> ...


Funny hanging on the moniker "the Hog" and calling _him_ bitter.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Great article, good to see Johan be candid. Looked like he had a lot to get off his chest, especially re the Kazakhs. 

Johan has earned the right to flap his gums and talk smack. When one of us has DS'd 9 TdF wins and won a TdF stage, then maybe we can tell Johan to STFU. Otherwise, we're the ones that should STFU, read what a master like him has to say, and soak it in.

And FWIW, there's nothing he said that is ground-breaking if you've been watching pro cycling the last 3 seasons. Although the story about Frank VDB as a 13-year old hanging with pros to the top of a climb used on the World's RR course was telling about what a great talent he was and would become.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

fornaca68 said:


> Great article, good to see Johan be candid. Looked like he had a lot to get off his chest, especially re the Kazakhs.
> 
> Johan has earned the right to flap his gums and talk smack. When one of us has DS'd 9 TdF wins and won a TdF stage, then maybe we can tell Johan to STFU. Otherwise, we're the ones that should STFU, read what a master like him has to say, and soak it in.
> 
> And FWIW, there's nothing he said that is ground-breaking if you've been watching pro cycling the last 3 seasons. Although the story about Frank VDB as a 13-year old hanging with pros to the top of a climb used on the World's RR course was telling about what a great talent he was and would become.


If you want to soak in all of Johan's BS, then have at it. I'll happily tell Johan to shove it. I think he has the right to complain about the Khazaks, but his comments on Contador are weak and reek of bitterness. 

Oh, and to the other guy, the Hog isn't a name I gave him.

But a few interesting tidbits here, pretty much confirming where his allegiances lay.

What becomes clear throughout the Belgian's commentary on La Grande Boucle is that the focus was on Armstrong, despite Contador's superiority on the road. "Lance realised he wouldn't win the Tour after the first mountain top finish in the Alps, at Verbier. It was clear: Contador attacked and took 1'35" on Lance. Until then it was also unclear to me how strong Lance would be: it was a continuous experiment," admitted Bruyneel.

"We didn't know what level he would achieve because we didn't have any reference points left from the past. And honestly, he surprised me. I saw him at the start of the season, in training and at the Giro: there are no miracles in cycling. You can't suddenly ride away from the best if you were unable to keep up with them a few weeks earlier. The highest possible was that he would be able to keep up with the best," continued Bruyneel. "I would've signed for such a comeback, but not him. He wanted to win the Tour."


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

The stuff about the Kazahk's and VDB was interesting. I have a harder time believing much of the AC stuff, as LA is Johan's gravy train and therefore there's an inherent bias.

Here's the question I'd like to see answered _honestly_ - Why add LA to team that already had the best GT rider in the world, especially considering your rule during LA's run was one leader everyone works for that leader?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

godot said:


> Here's the question I'd like to see answered _honestly_ - Why add LA to team that already had the best GT rider in the world, especially considering your rule during LA's run was one leader everyone works for that leader?


Why get Heras when you have Lance? Why get Savoldelli when you have Lance? Why get Popovych when you have Lance? Why get Basso when you have Contador? And so on, and so on. JB has made a lot of moves like this and they have mostly paid off.


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## T-shirt (Aug 15, 2004)

fornaca68 said:


> Great article, good to see Johan be candid. Looked like he had a lot to get off his chest, especially re the Kazakhs.
> 
> Johan has earned the right to flap his gums and talk smack. When one of us has DS'd 9 TdF wins and won a TdF stage, then maybe we can tell Johan to STFU. Otherwise, we're the ones that should STFU, read what a master like him has to say, and soak it in.
> 
> And FWIW, there's nothing he said that is ground-breaking if you've been watching pro cycling the last 3 seasons. Although the story about Frank VDB as a 13-year old hanging with pros to the top of a climb used on the World's RR course was telling about what a great talent he was and would become.


Totally agree.

Excellent article. This jumped out at me: 
"Bruyneel admitted that Armstrong's crash during the Castilla y Léon almost ended the comeback, however. "At that moment his comeback was on the verge of collapsing. Nobody knew that, except for some insiders. After the operation he was no longer motivated. He didn't want to race anymore."
That's real life.

I enjoyed the talk about how JB turned Astana around from being a pariah that no one wanted to be associated with. The administrative battles with Astana leadership was interesting too. They wanted glory for their countrymen. That's understandable, but I think that JB's thinking was wiser.

Thanks,
Tshirt


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> Why get Heras when you have Lance? Why get Savoldelli when you have Lance? Why get Popovych when you have Lance? Why get Basso when you have Contador? And so on, and so on. JB has made a lot of moves like this and they have mostly paid off.


When it came to the tour those guys when they were on JB's team (heras, paulo, popo) were workers for the leader. LA appears and suddenly it's a good idea to "let the road decide who the leader is"


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Im STILL trying to figure out whay ANY negative word said about AC is sacrosanct. 

YB is now the DS on what is probably going to be AC's team's [whatever it is] biggest rival. Color me shocked YB is getting directly involved in the rivalry.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> Why get Heras when you have Lance? Why get Savoldelli when you have Lance? Why get Popovych when you have Lance? Why get Basso when you have Contador? And so on, and so on. JB has made a lot of moves like this and they have mostly paid off.


You know that argument is BS. Those guys were specifically hired to work for Lance. Lance knew from day one that he was going for the Tour win. JB admitted as much. No way was Lance brought on to help Contador, and you know it.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Funny hanging on the moniker "the Hog" and calling _him_ bitter.


I'm bitter because I called JB by a name given to him in the peloton? That doesn't even make any sense. ut:


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

godot said:


> Why add LA to team that already had the best GT rider in the world, especially considering your rule during LA's run was one leader everyone works for that leader?


Why? So he's not competing against you on another team. Oh, and the fact that they didn't have to pay Lance a salary helped too.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

fornaca68 said:


> Why? So he's not competing against you on another team. Oh, and the fact that they didn't have to pay Lance a salary helped too.


No, he's competing against you on YOUR own team.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

FondriestFan said:


> No, he's competing against you on YOUR own team.


Considering Contador could drop Armstrong at will, that's not really true. Except for being smart enough to be up front when Columbia split the peloton on that one stage, Armstrong never gained any time on Contador that I can recall. And unlike Contador, Armstrong didn't screw over his teammates with dumb and useless attacks, either. There was a lot of petty political crap from both of them throughout the race, but on the course, where it matters, Armstrong was a pretty good teammate and played a strong defensive role in the mountains. You can't say the same about Contador.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> Considering Contador could drop Armstrong at will, that's not really true. Except for being smart enough to be up front when Columbia split the peloton on that one stage, Armstrong never gained any time on Contador that I can recall. And unlike Contador, Armstrong didn't screw over his teammates with dumb and useless attacks, either. There was a lot of petty political crap from both of them throughout the race, but on the course, where it matters, Armstrong was a pretty good teammate and played a strong defensive role in the mountains. You can't say the same about Contador.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree, since I think you are absolutely wrong on all of these points. I guess Armstrong's criticisms of Contador during the Tour on his Twitter page don't matter. Or leaving Contador at the hotel without a ride. Yeah, Armstrong was a good teammate. Come on, do you really believe that stuff?

And the reason Armstrong was even up at the front is because he got the heads up from Hincapie. You think if one of Armstrong's teammates had done that from 1999-2005 he wouldn't have been on the first plane home? Good grief.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

FondriestFan said:


> there are no miracles in cycling. You can't suddenly ride away from the best if you were unable to keep up with them a few weeks earlier.


the hog should know better than to say something like this


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Why get Heras when you have Lance? Why get Savoldelli when you have Lance? Why get Popovych when you have Lance? Why get Basso when you have Contador? And so on, and so on. JB has made a lot of moves like this and they have mostly paid off.


Savoldelli was fetching water bottles for Lance and his lieutenants the same year he won the Giro.
Popovych was there helping Lance all the way. Never dared to challenge him on the road.
Basso was brought in and canned before Contador ever won a grand tour.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> No, he's competing against you on YOUR own team.


FF -- let me take a wild stab in the dark: you're not a fan of Lance or Johan, are you? 

What's wrong with having 2 leaders on a team, especially where one of the 2 has won 7 Tours? What if the one that has "only" won 1 Tour falters for whatever reason? Crash, bonk, etc. If you can have another horse in the lead, don't you want that? Oh, not if that horse is named Lance or his trainer is named Johan.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

RkFast said:


> Im STILL trying to figure out whay ANY negative word said about AC is sacrosanct.
> 
> YB is now the DS on what is probably going to be AC's team's [whatever it is] biggest rival. Color me shocked YB is getting directly involved in the rivalry.


Yohan Bruyneel deserves the right to say what he thinks, in my book. Contador is the most talented GC rider over the past three years, but when it comes to strategy and team tactics, there is nobody better than JB. And JB is talking about strategy and teamwork in his interview, not watts per kilogram - so why doubt what he has to say?

Contador is going into next year as undisputed favorite for TdF. But what has he done exactly without JB? Anyone remember his accomplishments with Seguiros or ONCE? I don't. So only time will tell how well he does on his own.

His loss at Paris Nice this year, after virtually locking down the win, is just one example that Conti may be the strongest rider on the paper, but not necessarily the smartest rider.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

fornaca68 said:


> FF -- let me take a wild stab in the dark: you're not a fan of Lance or Johan, are you?
> 
> What's wrong with having 2 leaders on a team, especially where one of the 2 has won 7 Tours? What if the one that has "only" won 1 Tour falters for whatever reason? Crash, bonk, etc. If you can have another horse in the lead, don't you want that? Oh, not if that horse is named Lance or his trainer is named Johan.


This thread isn't about me, but no, I'm not a fan of JB. 

Lance has never had a co-leader and has directly stated that if anyone on his team ever had personal ambitions, they would have been sent home the next day.

Suddenly, he's no longer the top dog and that whole view changes to, "let's have 2 leaders." It's hypocritical. Furthermore, Lance had no intentions of working with Contador. On Verbier, Kloden was pacing Lance and dragging the others along in tow after Contador. If any one of Lance's teammates had done that during LA's 7 wins, he would have been shipped home in cargo freight.

The facts are against you here, fornaca, and I think you know it.


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## tkavan01 (Jun 24, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> This thread isn't about me, but no, I'm not a fan of JB.
> 
> Lance has never had a co-leader and has directly stated that if anyone on his team ever had personal ambitions, they would have been sent home the next day.
> 
> ...



so a coach is not allowed to change his strategies over the years, be dynamic with the game?


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

I don't know what some of you guys are smoking but you should really get your facts straight. I think the article about JB was pretty insightful into the problems that the team faced this year & how he held everything together DESPITE all the politics involved from not getting payed by the Kazahks, Vino's comeback & attempted power struggle within the team. 

As for Contador being the only grand tour rider winning all 3 tours, he didn't do it in the same year & he only accomplished it after Rasumussen was pulled by his team even though he never tested positive for anything which is the mantra of so many riders today.

As for Lance not being a team player, I'm pretty sure that he played domestique duties working for Levi not just once but in several races this year. 

As for Contador, I think he's a tremendous talent but he is still young so he's learning as he's going. Look what happened at Paris Nice this year as an example. 

As for Basso getting canned well that didn't happen. Operation Puerto is what happened & he got his pee pee slapped by the UCI for having blood doping materials ie 2 year suspension.

Again I'm not saying that I'm a fan of anyone, but that the article about JB was insightful about the difficulities his team faced this year & how he managed to hold everything together. I think that not enough credit is given to good team directors. They're the ones that make everything the team does look easy & professional ie Vaughters, Stapleton & yes JB.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

> _"What Vinokourov and Kascheskin messed with isn't my mistake and except for those two there's nobody in Kazakhstan. Yes, three domestiques, including two I'm not trusting and a bunch of young guys who aren't ready for the Tour de France. I'm being judged on the results and the international image of the team, not on the image of the team in a godforsaken country such as Kazakhstan."_


This is particularily classy. Trash a whole nation on the actions of two of their countrymen in the sporting world.

WRT Contador's lack of racing nous, he is only 27 yet he has 4GTs in his palmares.Not too shabby. Anyone can stuff up in a race as he did in Paris Nice, just ask LA about the Joux Plane incident. Difference is that in a three week event you may be able to save the situation, whereas you can't in a week long event.


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## SlowMo (Apr 18, 2006)

*Agreed....*



gamara said:


> I don't know what some of you guys are smoking but you should really get your facts straight. I think the article about JB was pretty insightful into the problems that the team faced this year & how he held everything together DESPITE all the politics involved from not getting payed by the Kazahks, Vino's comeback & attempted power struggle within the team.
> 
> As for Contador being the only grand tour rider winning all 3 tours, he didn't do it in the same year & he only accomplished it after Rasumussen was pulled by his team even though he never tested positive for anything which is the mantra of so many riders today.
> 
> ...


Figured I'd go ahead an copy all of this so some of you could read it 2x's. JB isn't an idiot when it comes to running a team. All of what gamara states here is correct.

If you haven't read the book "Might As Well Win", I'd encourage you to do so. It will either make those of you to despise JB despise him more, or those of you that like him respect him moreso. I was on the fence, but have come to appreciate where this all started and where he is today.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

55x11 said:


> But what has he done exactly without JB?


He's won the Giro and the Vuelta without JB, not to mention a bunch of other races. Or are you under the impression that JB was the DS at those races too?


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

tkavan01 said:


> so a coach is not allowed to change his strategies over the years, be dynamic with the game?


Change the strategy that won 7 straight Tours? The same strategy that he's going to employ next year when Lance is the team leader at Radio Shack?

Yeah, that's being fluid with the game. What game exactly are you talking about? How many teams do you see with multiple leaders?


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

gamara said:


> I don't know what some of you guys are smoking but you should really get your facts straight. I think the article about JB was pretty insightful into the problems that the team faced this year & how he held everything together DESPITE all the politics involved from not getting payed by the Kazahks, Vino's comeback & attempted power struggle within the team.
> 
> As for Contador being the only grand tour rider winning all 3 tours, he didn't do it in the same year & he only accomplished it after Rasumussen was pulled by his team even though he never tested positive for anything which is the mantra of so many riders today.
> 
> ...


I think this was a good post.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

FondriestFan said:


> Change the strategy that won 7 straight Tours? The same strategy that he's going to employ next year when Lance is the team leader at Radio Shack?
> 
> Yeah, that's being fluid with the game. What game exactly are you talking about? How many teams do you see with multiple leaders?



I think that it is worth considering that the team that JB had with Astana in 07- 09 was different than USP and Discovery before that. With USP, Lance Armstrong was the only person on the team that really had a shot at winning the tour. A good contemporary example would be team Lotto, where Cadel Evans is the only person on the team that has a prayer of a chance to win a Grand Tour. In that situation, the only strategy that really makes sense is to throw the entire team behind that one person. Cadel Evans' like-ability aside, I understand his frustrations when he feels that he did not receive the team support that he needed. 

Team Astana 07-09 was a different situation. It is not correct to make the allegation that the strategy in question was created for Lance Armstrong. TDF 09 was not the only stage race that had multiple Astana members standing on the podium. Before Lance Armstrong un-retired, JB was utilizing the same strategy with Contador and Leipheimer. Of course, Contador didn't like it very much, especially in Vuelta 08 when Leipheimer actually tied him in real time. From a team perspective though, I think it makes a whole lot of sense. 

When considering what strategy works best for competition, the dynamics of the team must be taken into consideration. The recent incarnations of Team Astana may have been composed of the greatest assembly of GT talent in any team in recent TDF history. At the beginning of the TDF 09, Astana had four riders that were capable of racing for the podium, and that would have been the undisputed leader on just about any other racing team. It makes so much sense for them to all race for the highest position that they possibly can, because you never know when somebody might break a collarbone or bonk at a crucial moment. I did see people starting to really complain about this tactic during Vuelta 08, but I never really understood why. I completely comprehend why a team like Lotto or old Discovery/Postal would throw everybody behind one person. What was done in any of the GT's that Astana finished in the past three years with multiple people on the podium that hurt the chances of the overall winner? What was not done in TDF 09 that would have given Astana a greater chance of winning the tour? What did Lance do in this TDF that hurt Contador's chances of winning? What did Levi do in the Vuelta that hurt Contador's chances of winning? Conti mouthed off when Levi blew his wheels off in the final TT, but that did nothing to hamper Contador's chances of winning; if Levi had won that way, it would have been because his overall performance was better than Contador's and I don't understand why it would be a problem for the person with the best performance to win. In ANY of the GT's that Contador finished with another teammate on the podium with him, the only person on the team that EVER attacked his teammates was Contador himself. Not Levi, Lance, nor Kloden ever did anything that was detrimental to Contador's success with the exception of Levi beating him in time trials, which I think is OK. Again, if you lose the race that way, it is because the other guy was better overall. He deserved to win. 

Astana absolutely dominated the TDF 09, and each of the Astana riders in high GC position were so strong that they weren't really suffering for the lack of an entire squad backing them individually. What purpose would have been served for any of them to "sacrifice" themselves for Contador when he wasn't in any trouble anyway? The times that mattered, Lance did the right thing. Contador attacked in the Alps (I can't remember what stage) and though Lance did follow him, he waited until the other people in the group popped before he did so, for the purpose of not bridging them up to Contador. Astana kept putting their best guys up front to hammer away until everyone else broke off. They were all strong enough to do that, and it was GOOD FOR THE TEAM to have so many people on their team finishing with high GC rankings. If Levi hadn't gotten hurt, who knows how high he could have finished. He has a pretty good track record with the final TT in Grand Tours. 

Garmin-Slipstream utilized this exact same tactic, by the way, and I didn't hear anybody complain about it. CVV was the guy on the team that was originally pinned for GC hopes, but when his legs didn't hold up, Wiggins was right there to jump in and race for the podium. There is a strong following amongst a lot of traditional roadies that believe very blindly in the (often logical and correct) strategy of throwing everything in behind one person, believing in that as the only correct strategy and everything else as disrespectful. I suppose that all of these people would have had JV throw Wiggins behind VDV in some showy and purposeless burn out session to "sacrifice" himself and lose time to VDV because he was the "team leader." When Wiggins began to demonstrate his quality, the sportsmanlike VDV stood behind Wiggin's talent instead of pitching some whiny baby-fit about how his team isn't riding exclusively for him and slandering Wiggins' "insubordinance."

All of that said, I hope for Contador's sake that he is able to get off of the Astana squad and race for the kind of team that he wants. He is very talented and I think he deserves that.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

fornaca68 said:


> And FWIW, there's nothing he said that is ground-breaking if you've been watching pro cycling the last 3 seasons. Although the story about Frank VDB as a 13-year old hanging with pros to the top of a climb used on the World's RR course was telling about what a great talent he was and would become.


That's the most interesting part. What a waste of talent... very sad.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

But...Lance Twittered!


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## tkavan01 (Jun 24, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> Change the strategy that won 7 straight Tours? The same strategy that he's going to employ next year when Lance is the team leader at Radio Shack?
> 
> Yeah, that's being fluid with the game. What game exactly are you talking about? How many teams do you see with multiple leaders?



how many teams actually had more then one potential podium finisher?
your blinding yourself to an entire realm of possibilities if you don't take a chance to use the firepower you have... I doubt we will ever see a team so stacked again that it might of had three podium finishers, and to be the one to coach that team would of been glorious...

really why are you so butt hurt about all this?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

FondriestFan said:


> Change the strategy that won 7 straight Tours? The same strategy that he's going to employ next year when Lance is the team leader at Radio Shack?
> 
> Yeah, that's being fluid with the game. What game exactly are you talking about? How many teams do you see with multiple leaders?


Umm, the team that won the TdF last year? Saxo Bank. You know, same team, same tactic this year- and another podium. Blue and White Jersey's, ride Specialized, have the great racer in history (not named Eddy) on their team.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> ...Saxo Bank.... Blue and White Jersey's, ride Specialized, have the great racer in history (not named Eddy) on their team.


????? Are there two Saxo Bank teams. I'm not familiar with the one that has the "great racer".

JSR


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

thechriswebb said:


> I think that it is worth considering that the team that JB had with Astana in 07- 09 was different than USP and Discovery before that. With USP, Lance Armstrong was the only person on the team that really had a shot at winning the tour. A good contemporary example would be team Lotto, where Cadel Evans is the only person on the team that has a prayer of a chance to win a Grand Tour. In that situation, the only strategy that really makes sense is to throw the entire team behind that one person. Cadel Evans' like-ability aside, I understand his frustrations when he feels that he did not receive the team support that he needed.
> 
> Team Astana 07-09 was a different situation. It is not correct to make the allegation that the strategy in question was created for Lance Armstrong. TDF 09 was not the only stage race that had multiple Astana members standing on the podium. Before Lance Armstrong un-retired, JB was utilizing the same strategy with Contador and Leipheimer. Of course, Contador didn't like it very much, especially in Vuelta 08 when Leipheimer actually tied him in real time. From a team perspective though, I think it makes a whole lot of sense.
> 
> ...


Well said. 

Fwiw there was a documentary film crew in the Astana team car during some of the key stages of the tour. Not sure when/if the footage or the piece will come out, but how will Contador's act play if there is footage of him disobeying Johan's direct orders?


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> have the great racer in history (not named Eddy) on their team.


? I thought that Coppi was dead......Did Hinault un-retire?


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

JohnStonebarger said:


> I don't know... it's a lot more fun when they all shoot their mouths off, even if it is bullshit sometimes.
> 
> Case in point: Glad to see Horner doing well, but it was more fun before he joined LA and JB, back when he would be much more candid.


Hoa Noa is an utter dissappointment. He's become just another Armstrong Apparatchik.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

FondriestFan said:


> A pretty interesting article.
> 
> Certainly, Alberto is still learning, but Bruyneel takes a dig that maybe they can get back together when Contador is older and wiser. Somebody remind the Hog that Contador is one of the handful of riders to ever win all 3 Grand Tours. The guy's not even 27 yet and he's won 4 Grand Tours.
> 
> ...



Bruyneel is a classless POS. Any young and promising rider who ever considers riding for him should read this article. He says that Contador believes that he won the tour all by himself. Contador won the race despite the fact that he was being sabotaged by his team and even had LA openly waging a psychological warfare campaign against him.

Contador proved that he was tougher mentally and physically than Dark Helmet. 

At least Dark Helmet won Nevada City against a bunch low echelon pros, and Cat 1/2s and Leadville with the help of 4 domestiques.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

mohair_chair said:


> Considering Contador could drop Armstrong at will, that's not really true. Except for being smart enough to be up front when Columbia split the peloton on that one stage, Armstrong never gained any time on Contador that I can recall. And unlike Contador, Armstrong didn't screw over his teammates with dumb and useless attacks, either. There was a lot of petty political crap from both of them throughout the race, but on the course, where it matters, Armstrong was a pretty good teammate and played a strong defensive role in the mountains. You can't say the same about Contador.


Yeah. His teammates screwed him over every day in the hotel. His team couldn't hurt him without the help of another team. Contador was just paying Astana back. How can you blame him?


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

gamara said:


> .... JB was pretty insightful into the problems that the team faced this year & how he held everything together DESPITE all the politics involved from not getting payed by the Kazahks, Vino's comeback & attempted power struggle within the team....


Actually JB held nothing together. He lost the best stage racer in the business. Of course he replaced him with Lance, who's going to be 38 and probably re-retire after next year.



gamara said:


> .As for Contador being the only grand tour rider winning all 3 tours, he didn't do it in the same year & he only accomplished it after Rasumussen was pulled by his team even though he never tested positive for anything which is the mantra of so many riders today.


So what's your point. Neither did Lance. It took him 7 years to win 7. It took Contador 3 years to win 4. No matter what happened with Rasmussen, Contador is still the 2007 TdF winner. Just like Sastre is still the 2008 winner. 




gamara said:


> As for Lance not being a team player, I'm pretty sure that he played domestique duties working for Levi not just once but in several races this year.


Oh really. What would've impressed me is if Lance played domestique for say.....Paolo Savoldelli when he won the Giro in 2005, some say singlehandedly. Where was JB then? Certainly not in Italy.




gamara said:


> As for Contador, I think he's a tremendous talent but he is still young so he's learning as he's going. Look what happened at Paris Nice this year as an example.


So what? Paris Nice, Vuelta al Pais Vasco, Castilla Y Leon are all icing on the cake. The real prize for Contador as was for Lance back in his day, was the TdF.



gamara said:


> As for Basso getting canned well that didn't happen. Operation Puerto is what happened & he got his pee pee slapped by the UCI for having blood doping materials ie 2 year suspension.


Basso was brought up by me on an earlier post, only because another member said that Basso was brought into Disco when the already had Contador. My reply was, at that point Contador hadn't won a single Grand Tour. And yes Basso's contract was terminated because of Puerto, and later that year Contador won Paris Nice and later the TdF because of Rasmussen getting the boot.



gamara said:


> Again I'm not saying that I'm a fan of anyone, but that the article about JB was insightful about the difficulities his team faced this year & how he managed to hold everything together. I think that not enough credit is given to good team directors. They're the ones that make everything the team does look easy & professional ie Vaughters, Stapleton & yes JB.


JB a good director? At Castilla Y Leon, Lance crashes during the first stage and immediately JB leaves the race to be by his side. While that might've made sense back in 2003, in 2009 his top rider is Contador. Alberto was at that same race. JB thought that holding Lance's hand was more important than being there with his top rider. You know, making sure that the "young and inexperienced" Contador won't take any unnecessary chances at these small races and to make sure he saves himself for THE PRIZE.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> Umm, the team that won the TdF last year? Saxo Bank. You know, same team, same tactic this year- and another podium. Blue and White Jersey's, ride Specialized, have the great racer in history (not named Eddy) on their team.


Congrats, the one exception to the rule.

If you only talked about Jens as much as you defend Lance, you might actually be convincing.


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## gormleyflyer2002 (Sep 12, 2005)

do we really care what the guy in the car following the racers thinks.........how many tdf's would LA have won without him. Since when did JB pedal the dam bike. Nobody would know his name without LA and Lance would have still won every tdf.

The kid from Spain wupped them on the road and took the race into his own hands, their media and childish BS backfired, he won it by himself. 

"Less time tweeting and more time riding".........seems the champ could still learn a few tricks himself. I love it, they are still crying and acting like a couple of sucky bum baby azz loosers. Shut up and bring it in 2010,.......!!!!

i loved the race......although, I'm still trying to figure out how AC smoked fabian cancellara in that last TT......erm.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

FondriestFan said:


> Change the strategy that won 7 straight Tours? The same strategy that he's going to employ next year when Lance is the team leader at Radio Shack?
> 
> Yeah, that's being fluid with the game. What game exactly are you talking about? How many teams do you see with multiple leaders?


Seriously get a room with Contador. You are pretty biased. I am interested to see what happens next year because as you seem to forget Armstrong broke his collarbone 3 mos. prior to the Tour (which didn't help his form). If he is healthy next year I think it could be a real battle, especially since Contador stands to be on a weak team (if forced to stay at Astana). I'm no Armstrong fan but I thought this past Tour was pretty good.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

teoteoteo said:


> Well said.
> 
> Fwiw there was a documentary film crew in the Astana team car during some of the key stages of the tour. Not sure when/if the footage or the piece will come out, but how will Contador's act play if there is footage of him disobeying Johan's direct orders?


How much would AC have acted out had JB shown AC the same respect he did LA and allowed him a team completely dedicated to him? I'm guessing if LA weren't on the tour team the whole deal of him disobeying team orders goes away.

Not saying AC is a tactical genius, and didn't make mistakes. But let's be honest, JB's success is based primarily on LA's success, and he's a smart business man to continue sucking off the teet that made him what he is. Given that fact, one must filter JB's comments with regards to AC based on where his money comes from. 

I'm sure JB had a stressful year dealing with the Borat's, but the stress/drama in dealing wih AC is largely his own making.


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## EricN (Apr 9, 2009)

wow thread devolvement in progress... eject!


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> Seriously get a room with Contador. You are pretty biased. I am interested to see what happens next year because as you seem to forget Armstrong broke his collarbone 3 mos. prior to the Tour (which didn't help his form). If he is healthy next year I think it could be a real battle, especially since Contador stands to be on a weak team (if forced to stay at Astana). I'm no Armstrong fan but I thought this past Tour was pretty good.


Tyler Hamilton was top 5 in the Giro and the Tour with broken collarbones. HTFU, Lance.  
BTW, I'm not sure WTF you're referring to when you're babbling about my forgetting about Lance's collarbone. Did I denigrate the guy's accomplishments? No. I was talking about JB. I think you took a wrong turn somewhere, Sir Likeslancealot.

I certainly hope it is a battle next year.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

DZfan14 said:


> Bruyneel is a classless POS. Any young and promising rider who ever considers riding for him should read this article. He says that Contador believes that he won the tour all by himself. Contador won the race despite the fact that he was being sabotaged by his team and even had LA openly waging a psychological warfare campaign against him.
> 
> Contador proved that he was tougher mentally and physically than Dark Helmet.
> 
> At least Dark Helmet won Nevada City against a bunch low echelon pros, and Cat 1/2s and Leadville with the help of 4 domestiques.


Yes, any young rider considering riding for JB should read this article. If that young rider has any doubts about his ability to recognize the importance of a team or his willingness to learn from more experienced riders and managers, that rider probably should consider another team. 
But he shouldn't be suprised when other managers like Jean-Paul Van Poppel, Vaughters, Patrick Lefevere, Bjarne Riis, or Bob Stapleton, expect the same as Johan. 
A young rider like Janez has spend time with Lance and Johan, and made his decision based on actual personal experience rather than an article.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

MG537 said:


> Actually JB held nothing together. He lost the best stage racer in the business. Of course he replaced him with Lance, who's going to be 38 and probably re-retire after next year.
> 
> Blah, blah, blah......clearly no one is really reading any of the articles. I keep hearing so much semantics in these forums. JB had one more year left in his contract, but cuz of the power struggle between him & Vino, one of them had to go. Well guess who went??
> 
> ...


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Point is, JB was following LA around from the beginning of the season, like a good puppy dog. Even if Contador has one year left in his contract, the least JB could've done, as a good director, is make sure Alberto ends up with the Shack after the 2010 season.

As for JB being a good boss? What's all this talking smack about Astana? They're the ones paying your riders. They're the ones who allowed an outsider to come in, put on the uniform and promote his foundation. Without the support of the taxpayers of Kazakhstan, JB would've been retired with 4 less grand tours under his palmares.

But if you want to take JB's words as gospel go on. The rest of us can strongly suspect that the real boss is LA with JB being little more than a figurehead.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

JSR said:


> ????? Are there two Saxo Bank teams. I'm not familiar with the one that has the "great racer".
> 
> JSR


Jens Voigt, of course.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

FondriestFan said:


> Congrats, the one exception to the rule.
> 
> If you only talked about Jens as much as you defend Lance, you might actually be convincing.


Always back to the Lance obsession with you huh. 

BTW- the one TdF exception_ in the last two years_. I imagine more wouldn't be too hard to find- but none of them will be as funny as last year's winning team.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnns!*



thechriswebb said:


> ? I thought that Coppi was dead......Did Hinault un-retire?


Never under estimate Zombie-Coppi. As soon as the UCI stops discriminating against the undead, Zombie-Coppi is riding for the podium.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Yes, any young rider considering riding for JB should read this article. If that young rider has any doubts about his ability to recognize the importance of a team or his willingness to learn from more experienced riders and managers, that rider probably should consider another team.
> But he shouldn't be suprised when other managers like Jean-Paul Van Poppel, Vaughters, Patrick Lefevere, Bjarne Riis, or Bob Stapleton, expect the same as Johan.
> A young rider like Janez has spend time with Lance and Johan, and made his decision based on actual personal experience rather than an article.


Yeah, because all of those other teams routinely seek to undermine their best riders during the TdF.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

JB is talking the talk, let's see Radio Shanty walk-the-walk in 2010.

Sorry, my money is on the talent - Alberto Contador.

Coolhand - Agreed, Jens is a class-act, in contrast to JB and LA.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> Always back to the Lance obsession with you huh.
> 
> BTW- the one TdF exception_ in the last two years_. I imagine more wouldn't be too hard to find- but none of them will be as funny as last year's winning team.


I'm not the one claiming I love Jens Voigt but policing the boards for anti-Lance comments, Sir Likeslancealot.  

But hey, your act is funny, so I enjoy giving you crap about it. To each his own.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

FondriestFan said:


> Tyler Hamilton was top 5 in the Giro and the Tour with broken collarbones. HTFU, Lance.
> BTW, I'm not sure WTF you're referring to when you're babbling about my forgetting about Lance's collarbone. Did I denigrate the guy's accomplishments? No. I was talking about JB. I think you took a wrong turn somewhere, Sir Likeslancealot.
> 
> I certainly hope it is a battle next year.


Well I'm sure you will be there to help push little Alberto up a climb at some point, you and his brother appear to be his biggest fans (and possibly more)...:idea:


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

From cyclingnews today:

"Contador clashed with Armstrong and Bruyneel over his tactics en route to winning this year's Tour. He refused to respond to Bruyneel's latest statements where he insinuated Contador had become conceited."

Contador yet again taking the high ground, while the Hog wallows in his own feces.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

I really can't understand why there seems to be this hatred towards JB & this fixation about LA vs Contador. I thought the article was pretty enlightening about the difficulties of being a sports director especially a successful one. 

Yet everyone is going on about if it wasn't for LA or AC there would be no JB. Those 2 guys alone made him??? If you look back at the big picture JB is pretty good at his job of recruiting top talent & creating a successful team. Vaughters, Danielson, Leif Hoste, Stijn Devolder, Tom Boonen, Hincapie, Paulo Savoldelli, Julich, CVV. All these guys & many others that have transferred to other teams were lured away by bigger money but they were all winning races under JB. 

I like to know how you guys measure the success of a team director??? What are you're guidelines?? Cause from what I've read, I'm not sure you do. A team director must recruit top talent that will create success on the road & promote a positive image for the sponsor. This will ensure that the sponsor receives positive promotion of their brand name & thus ensure a positive, long term relation between the team & sponsor. 

Bottom line is if a sponsor doesn't get any return on their investment then they're not going to stick around. JB leaves Astana & heads up the Shack. Well the Shack got their pro tour licence & Astana is??? Being a sports director means being a business person also. Obviously its not that easy to get a pro tour licence....look at the teams that lost them this year. 

Contador I like him but I still think he's immature. Why would you go public at a press conference & tell the whole world that you have no respect for one of your teammates & that you won the tour on your own?? How would a sponsor react after hearing that. They pour $$$$$ into a team & this guy says I didn't need them to win. Not very professional & very immature. 

Look at Cavendish vs Thor at the tour. Same type of situation but different outcome. Cav essentially said that Thor wasn't worthy of the green jersey & called him crap on tv. What does Thor do?? He attacked in the mountains gaining points for the jersey. Afterwards Cav showed what real class is & he straighten things out between them on tv.

Yeah so I guess if you use the above as a measure of a successful team director then you guys must be right & JB must be a POS cause if there was no LA or Contador he be no where & the article about him is all crap too.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

FondriestFan said:


> I'm not the one claiming I love Jens Voigt but policing the boards for anti-Lance comments, Sir Likeslancealot.
> 
> But hey, your act is funny, so I enjoy giving you crap about it. To each his own.


You know after several posting vacation for personal attacks, I thought their was a chance you might possible get the idea to knock it off and stick to the point in threads. Seeing you can't, let me help you.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

FondriestFan said:


> You know that argument is BS. Those guys were specifically hired to work for Lance. Lance knew from day one that he was going for the Tour win. JB admitted as much. No way was Lance brought on to help Contador, and you know it.


Yes, taking on LA was a big mistake. It's pretty much killed cycling! What could JB have been thinking? On top of it all, he only captured two of the podium spots--what a loser!

Glad to have you to bring some objectivity to the matter!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

JB and LA are winners, you can't take that away from them.

But what do we expect of champions? Personnaly, I'd like to see some class and sportsmanship - maybe I'm just old-school, but I think that's important as well.

If you put JB/LA face-to-face with AC - IMHO - AC is a classier act.

Performance is important too - LA still has it all over anyone else in the peloton with 7 TdF Victories. But AC seems to have the talent to challenge that as well - time will tell.


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