# Rear derailleur compatibility across 9,10 and 11 speeds



## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

This is a question that’s been on the back burner for a while now. Thought this would be the perfect time to lay it out here.
1. Rear derailleur works by the pulley moving across the width of the cassette. The cable pull is regulated by the amount of cable pull within the shifter mechanism. What’s stopping me from using a older model 8 speed derailleur with a 11 speed shifter? Or a 9 speed? The cassette hub is a constant fixed width. The only variable is the spacer width and the cog thickness. Theoretically, setting the high and low limits should take care of that. Let’s have the yay’s and nay’s on why it should or shouldn’t work.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Been asked about a bazillion times. 100% Nay won't work. The pull ratios are different.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

8, 9, and 10 are the same cable pull ratio...except for 4700. It's 10 speed but the cable pull is the same as 6800/8000 and 9000/9100. You can use the 8 speed derailleur w/ any 8 or 9 speed shifter, and all 10 speed shifters except 4700 Tiagra. It won't work w/ ANY 11 speed shifter. You can use the 8 speed derailleur w/ any 8 or 9 speed mtb shifter as well, but no 10 speed (Dyna-Sys) shifter will work.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

arshak said:


> This is a question that’s been on the back burner for a while now. Thought this would be the perfect time to lay it out here.
> 1. Rear derailleur works by the pulley moving across the width of the cassette. The cable pull is regulated by the amount of cable pull within the shifter mechanism. What’s stopping me from using a older model 8 speed derailleur with a 11 speed shifter? Or a 9 speed? The cassette hub is a constant fixed width. The only variable is the spacer width and the cog thickness. Theoretically, setting the high and low limits should take care of that. Let’s have the yay’s and nay’s on why it should or shouldn’t work.


As others have noted, as long as the cable pull is consistent then it will work. But when you say "older" derailleur, you might find that a newer 8s derailleur will work better than an older 8s derailleur just because there are improvements in derailleurs over time. Might not be an issue in your specific application.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

So, how exactly are you going to get to 9,10, & 11 speed gears? ... when the shifters only go to ...8?
I think you're going to be missing some gears!


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

duriel said:


> So, how exactly are you going to get to 9,10, & 11 speed gears? ... when the shifters only go to ...8?
> I think you're going to be missing some gears!


Reading comprehension issues or trolling? The OP said "8 speed derailleur with a 11 speed shifter"


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

OK, I got it backwards. I guess I got mixed up with another thread about/with a 11 spd hub/wheel.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> 8, 9, and 10 are the same cable pull ratio...except for 4700. It's 10 speed but the cable pull is the same as 6800/8000 and 9000/9100. You can use the 8 speed derailleur w/ any 8 or 9 speed shifter, and all 10 speed shifters except 4700 Tiagra. It won't work w/ ANY 11 speed shifter. You can use the 8 speed derailleur w/ any 8 or 9 speed mtb shifter as well, but no 10 speed (Dyna-Sys) shifter will work.


Exactly this. Shimano changed the cable pull ratio on 11-speed road and 10-speed mountain to pull more cable.

Unless this 8-speed rear derailleur is one you have lying around your bike parts pile, why would you want to buy an 8-speed one when 11-speed rear derailleurs are relatively cheap anyway?


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

duriel said:


> So, how exactly are you going to get to 9,10, & 11 speed gears? ... when the shifters only go to ...8?
> I think you're going to be missing some gears!


I think you misunderstood me. The shifters will be the change in the constant. If I use 11 speed shifters with 8 speed Dura Ace rear derailleur, the cable pull will be regulated by the shifters themselves. If the hub width remains a constant as well, wouldn’t the 8spd rear derailleur work just as well?


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

Lombard said:


> Exactly this. Shimano changed the cable pull ratio on 11-speed road and 10-speed mountain to pull more cable.
> 
> Unless this 8-speed rear derailleur is one you have lying around your bike parts pile, why would you want to buy an 8-speed one when 11-speed rear derailleurs are relatively cheap anyway?


Lockdown blues and boredom. I have an old DA 8 speed derailleur in the spare parts bin. Will update if my theory holds or not as the case maybe.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

arshak said:


> I think you misunderstood me. The shifters will be the change in the constant. If I use 11 speed shifters with 8 speed Dura Ace rear derailleur, the cable pull will be regulated by the shifters themselves. If the hub width remains a constant as well, wouldn’t the 8spd rear derailleur work just as well?


No, an 11 speed road shifter has a different pull ratio than an 8, 9 or 10 speed. Any 8, 9 or 10 speed road shifter will work with any 8, 9 or 10 speed road rear derailleur (unless it's Tiagra 4700). However, the 11 speed road system pulls more cable per shift and therefore is not backwards compatible.

I'm still not sure what you are trying to do here. What do you have on your bike as far as shifters, rear derailleur and cassette and what is it you are trying to change?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

arshak said:


> I think you misunderstood me. The shifters will be the change in the constant. If I use 11 speed shifters with 8 speed Dura Ace rear derailleur, the cable pull will be regulated by the shifters themselves. If the hub width remains a constant as well, *wouldn’t the 8spd rear derailleur work just as well*?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope. The cable pull is regulated by the shifter but not how much the derailleur moves. That's a combination of cable pull and derailleur geometry.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

Lombard said:


> No, an 11 speed road shifter has a different pull ratio than an 8, 9 or 10 speed. Any 8, 9 or 10 speed road shifter will work with any 8, 9 or 10 speed road rear derailleur (unless it's Tiagra 4700). However, the 11 speed road system pulls more cable per shift and therefore is not backwards compatible.
> 
> I'm still not sure what you are trying to do here. What do you have on your bike as far as shifters, rear derailleur and cassette and what is it you are trying to change?


Like I said, lockdown boredom and the fact that I have an old 8 speed kicking around. Believe it or not I have managed to get a 10 speed Rival derailleur work with a 9 speed cassette with help from 9 speed Campy Daytona. I will keep you updated on this thread as to where the boredom driven rabbit hole leads me. ‘Tis curiouser & curiouser said the bunny wabbit 


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

arshak said:


> Like I said, lockdown boredom and the fact that I have an old 8 speed kicking around. Believe it or not I have managed to get a 10 speed Rival derailleur work with a 9 speed cassette with help from 9 speed Campy Daytona. I will keep you updated on this thread as to where the boredom driven rabbit hole leads me. ‘Tis curiouser & curiouser said the bunny wabbit.


Haha! OK. Not sure about SRAM compatibilities. I'd have to look that up. CXWrench would know for sure. But hey, if you're bored, try 'em all, LOL!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> No, an 11 speed road shifter has a different pull ratio than an 8, 9 or 10 speed. Any 8, 9 or 10 speed road shifter will work with any 8, 9 or 10 speed road rear derailleur (unless it's Tiagra 4700). However, *the 11 speed road system pulls more cable *per shift and therefore is not backwards compatible.


If that's true then theoretically an 8 speed der will over shift because it was designed to move further with less cable being pulled. 

Try it to find out. "more" cable being pulled doesn't necessarily mean it's not still be 'close enough', It won't be perfect but wouldn't shock me if it worked acceptably.


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## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Nope. The cable pull is regulated by the shifter but not how much the derailleur moves. That's a combination of cable pull and derailleur geometry.


Yep. Metaphorically, the derailleur is the big dumb boyfriend doing all the heavy lifting while the shifter is the cute girlfriend calling the shots and telling him where she wants the furniture placed.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> If that's true then theoretically an 8 speed der will over shift because it was designed to move further with less cable being pulled.


Yep.



xxl said:


> Yep. Metaphorically, the derailleur is the big dumb boyfriend doing all the heavy lifting while the shifter is the cute girlfriend calling the shots and telling him where she wants the furniture placed.


Hahah! Good analogy! :lol:


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

xxl said:


> Yep. Metaphorically, the derailleur is the big dumb boyfriend doing all the heavy lifting while the shifter is the cute girlfriend calling the shots and telling him where she wants the furniture placed.


Kind of the opposite in this situation. Instructions on placing the furniture are a given. 
The cable pull from the shifters is what it is no matter what. Different ders make different decisions on placing the furniture with the same instructions.


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## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Kind of the opposite in this situation. Instructions on placing the furniture are a given.
> The cable pull from the shifters is what it is no matter what. Different ders make different decisions on placing the furniture with the same instructions.


I think we're on the same page: The "instructions" are coming from the shifter-dictated cable pull/girlfriend, and the actual shifts of chain are being performed by the derailleur/boyfriend, yes? 

[Of course, IRL, the actual girlfriend is continually updating those instructions as to where the furniture is to be placed, sometimes in boyfriend's mid-lift, so the metaphor isn't perfect.  ]


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

Lombard said:


> Haha! OK. Not sure about SRAM compatibilities. I'd have to look that up. CXWrench would know for sure. But hey, if you're bored, try 'em all, LOL!


Update: I am going over the deep end because of lockdown related nuttiness. I have decided to mess around with my 29er first. Now, I know there are going to be a lot of indignation that I am introducing a (gasp) mtb onto a road bike forum but hear me out. This is a investigatory phase 1.
I am going to replace my well designed and tested Shimano XT/XTR components with Chinese components from Sensah. 
Currently, I have 2x setup. I am jumping to 1x and 11 speed. Got the cassette, chain and brake set. Waiting on the shifters. Will update after install and provide feedback. Besides,it can’t be any worse than SRAM.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

arshak said:


> Update: I am going over the deep end because of lockdown related nuttiness. I have decided to mess around with my 29er first. Now, I know there are going to be a lot of indignation that I am introducing a (gasp) mtb onto a road bike forum but hear me out. This is a investigatory phase 1.
> I am going to replace my well designed and tested Shimano XT/XTR components with Chinese components from Sensah.
> Currently, I have 2x setup. I am jumping to 1x and 11 speed. Got the cassette, chain and brake set. Waiting on the shifters. Will update after install and provide feedback. Besides,it can’t be any worse than SRAM.


What is so bad about SRAM? Their mountain components are excellent and their road components have drastically improved since they started with road stuff. 

Man, if you are really that bored, why don't you just ride your bike more as in until you are so tired you're not thinking about beimg bored anymore? It's much cheaper.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

arshak said:


> Update: I am going over the deep end because of lockdown related nuttiness. I have decided to mess around with my 29er first. Now, I know there are going to be a lot of indignation that I am introducing a (gasp) mtb onto a road bike forum but hear me out. This is a investigatory phase 1.
> I am going to replace my well designed and tested Shimano XT/XTR components with Chinese components from Sensah.
> Currently, I have 2x setup. I am jumping to 1x and 11 speed. Got the cassette, chain and brake set. Waiting on the shifters. Will update after install and provide feedback. Besides,it can’t be any worse than SRAM.
> 
> ...


You don't have a clue about SRAM for one thing...and you need to just go ride your bike for another. But since you're going to do it anyway I am interested to see how the Chinese stuff works. And further down the road how it holds up.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

Lombard said:


> What is so bad about SRAM? Their mountain components are excellent and their road components have drastically improved since they started with road stuff.
> 
> Man, if you are really that bored, why don't you just ride your bike more as in until you are so tired you're not thinking about beimg bored anymore? It's much cheaper.


You are right as to riding my bike which I am doing at dawn for a couple of hours. The bikes components upgrade or downgrade as the case maybe just to satisfy my itch to tinker with my bike(s). I am curious as to how the Chinese stuff works. As to SRAM, I don’t like the way they work or sound when you shift. Almost like something broke. 


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Doesn't an 7 & 8 speed Dura Ace rear derailleur have a different geometry than everything else, that is 8,9, or 10?????

"1997 was a very big year for Dura-Ace. The system went to 9 speeds, and that was the most publicized change. In addition, however, the entire Dura-Ace system was redesigned and made to be inter-compatible with other Shimano components."

"The major difference between pre-1997 Dura-Ace and the rest of the Shimano lines is the cable travel of the rear derailer. Old Dura-Ace used a shorter amount of cable travel per shift. This has to do with the geometry of the cable attachment. Since the cable moved a shorter distance per shift, effects of cable friction or inaccurate cable adjustment were magnified.

With the introduction of the 6-speed 600EX S.I.S. group, the cable attachment on the rear derailer changed, so that the cable had to move farther per shift. This change reduced cable tension, reduced the effects of cable misadjustment and friction, and generally made for a more forgiving system. The same geometry was adapted for 9-speed Dura-Ace when it was introduced in 1997. All subsequent S.I.S. groups match the travel of the 600EX, except the 10-speed "Shadow" XTR derailers and shifters, which have an even longer cable travel.."


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

arshak said:


> You are right as to riding my bike which I am doing at dawn for a couple of hours. The bikes components upgrade or downgrade as the case maybe just to satisfy my itch to tinker with my bike(s). I am curious as to how the Chinese stuff works. As to SRAM, I don’t like the way they work or sound when you shift. Almost like something broke.


Didn't curiosity kill the cat? 

Interesting your take on SRAM. It does have a more defined click compared to Shimano's what has been described as an SBD fart smooth transition. 

I'd be leery about how the Chinese drivetrain holds up, but hey, unlike a bike frame which can fail catastrophically, if it fails, the worst that would happen is that you may one day be limping home on a 2-speed. Depending on the number and grade of the hills on that 2-speed ride, I doubt you will be bored.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

My shifter and derailleur set is in USPS limbo. Can’t even track the damn packet even with registered post and tracking. Last I know is that it’s here in country. DeJoy is taking all the fun out of the anticipation of the package. It’s been a month and a half. Everything else is here. Cassette, Crankset and brake. Beyond bummed. 


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Shipping has been really weird lately. I ordered Campy brake springs from Nashbar and they took 4 weeks, but the 4 orders I got from overseas got here in 3 days (each one!). I think it's a USPS thing because the overseas orders all come by DHL.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> You don't have a clue about SRAM for one thing...and you need to just go ride your bike for another. But since you're going to do it anyway I am interested to see how the Chinese stuff works. And further down the road how it holds up.


As somebody who has SRAM groups on two bikes, that is a statement that doesn’t make sense. I am talking about The group from a purely engineering perspective. I have been riding for more than thirty years now and in that time has ridden everything from 6speed to 10 speed. This includes Shimano, Suntour, Mavic, Campy, and yes, for a brief period, I had Simplex DT shifters on one of my bikes. All groups have their idiosyncrasies in how they work. The original 8 speed Campy Ergo was plain awful compared to any of the Shimano lineup. And I mean 105 vs Record. D/A was no comparison, just blew it out of the water. 
SRAM groups have a tendency to be more finicky because their tolerances are all over the map. Even after 10 years, I still wince every time I shift a gear because it sounds like something broke. Getting the front derailleur adjusted properly to shift involves a lot of swearing compared to Shimano. I haven’t tried the 11 speed yet just because. 


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

arshak said:


> SRAM groups have a tendency to be more finicky because their tolerances are all over the map. Even after 10 years, I still wince every time I shift a gear because it sounds like something broke. Getting the front derailleur adjusted properly to shift involves a lot of swearing compared to Shimano. I haven’t tried the 11 speed yet just because.


Which SRAM groups have you owned that you had so much trouble with?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

arshak said:


> As somebody who has SRAM groups on two bikes, that is a statement that doesn’t make sense. I am talking about The group from a purely engineering perspective. I have been riding for more than thirty years now and in that time has ridden everything from 6speed to 10 speed. This includes Shimano, Suntour, Mavic, Campy, and yes, for a brief period, I had Simplex DT shifters on one of my bikes. All groups have their idiosyncrasies in how they work. The original 8 speed Campy Ergo was plain awful compared to any of the Shimano lineup. And I mean 105 vs Record. D/A was no comparison, just blew it out of the water.
> *SRAM groups have a tendency to be more finicky* because their tolerances are all over the map. Even after 10 years, I still wince every time I shift a gear because it sounds like something broke. Getting the front derailleur adjusted properly to shift involves a lot of swearing compared to Shimano. I haven’t tried the 11 speed yet just because.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's odd. My first pro team experience w/ SRAM was their first season in '05. Every road, mtb, and cx team I've worked for since then has been on SRAM. I've found it to be very forgiving compared to Shimano and I know why. Front derailleurs? Easy. I'm guessing my experience is a little more...uhhhhmmm...in depth than yours.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

Lombard said:


> Which SRAM groups have you owned that you had so much trouble with?


Rival 10 speed on one and Force on another. The Force groupset is better compared to Rival but the front derailleur setup takes time and patience, more so than any other group. I am also worried about durability of the shifters. 


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

arshak said:


> Rival 10 speed on one and Force on another. The Force groupset is better compared to Rival but the front derailleur setup takes time and patience, more so than any other group. *I am also worried about durability of the shifters. *


Why are your worried about durability? Feeling?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

arshak said:


> Rival 10 speed on one and Force on another. The Force groupset is better compared to Rival but the front derailleur setup takes time and patience, more so than any other group. I am also worried about durability of the shifters.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Funny, those 2 shifters use identical internals. And the front derailleur? It's exactly the same set-up as any other 'normal' derailleur. Yaw is a little morr involved, and the new toggle link Shimano derailleurs are much more involved. None of them are difficult, there are just more steps in the process.

You're worried about durability? You have 10 speed parts and they're still working...why are you worried? They're already old.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Funny, those 2 shifters use identical internals.


So what is the difference between Rival and Force? Does anything besides weight and cosmetics make Force "better"?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> So what is the difference between Rival and Force? Does anything besides weight and cosmetics make Force "better"?


Those were the first gen SRAM. The difference was alloy or carbon for the lever. As for as how they function...exactly the same.

ETA: There might have been a difference in the trim on the left lever. I seem to remember the Force trimmed in the big ring and Rival in the small ring but it's been a long time. The right levers were the same.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

Lombard said:


> Why are your worried about durability? Feeling?


Heard too many horror stories. Also, tactile feedback. Like they are going to break. They also need the internals debunked every two years or earlier if left in the garage in winter 


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

arshak said:


> Heard too many horror stories. Also, tactile feedback. Like they are going to break. They also need the internals debunked every two years or earlier if left in the garage in winter. Third, a friend of mine who is a uscf certified mechanic since 1980 hates to work on them because they need constant tlc
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

arshak said:


> *Heard too many horror stories.* Also, tactile feedback. Like they are going to break. They also need the internals debunked every two years or earlier if left in the garage in winter


I'd like to hear about these "horror stories". What happened? Do you know the people who had problems or did you read reviews? Did a shifter actually break?

As far as getting gunked up, that can happen to Shimano as well.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

arshak said:


> Heard too many horror stories. Also, tactile feedback. Like they are going to break. They also need the internals debunked every two years or earlier if left in the garage in winter
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


People like you crack me up.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> People like you crack me up.


? Degunked. Friggin auto correct. I am giving you my viewpoint. I am giving the reasons why I don’t think that sram is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The shifters froze and I had to spend an hour cleaning the internal mechs and lubing. 


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

arshak said:


> ? Degunked. Friggin auto correct. I am giving you my viewpoint. I am giving the reasons why I don’t think that sram is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The shifters froze and I had to spend an hour cleaning the internal mechs and lubing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I'm talking about the 'horror stories' you've heard. Froze as in temperature? How cold? I've never heard of that happening even in the midwest/northeast during cross season. Shimano shifters get sticky and fail to work constantly...some maintenance is involved w/ bikes, is that surprising? Oh wait...it's horrifying.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> No, I'm talking about the 'horror stories' you've heard. Froze as in temperature? How cold? I've never heard of that happening even in the midwest/northeast during cross season. Shimano shifters get sticky and fail to work constantly...some maintenance is involved w/ bikes, is that surprising? Oh wait...it's horrifying.





Lombard said:


> I'd like to hear about these "horror stories". What happened? Do you know the people who had problems or did you read reviews? Did a shifter actually break?
> 
> As far as getting gunked up, that can happen to Shimano as well.


I get the routine maintenance part and I don’t have a problem with it. I guess once you get used to excellence in engineering , SRAM doesn’t cut it for me. To give them credit they came up with some innovative designs but the execution and the machines tolerances are sloppy and all over the map. My shifters are finally here after a month and half. Should be getting them today. Will update as to how they work compared to my current XT/XTR setup. One of the interesting things about this group is that the 11 speed cassette slips on to the 9/10 speed body without a hitch. No spacer needed. Will have a better understanding in the next two days as to how it all works together. Or if it even works.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

arshak said:


> I get the routine maintenance part and I don’t have a problem with it. I guess once you get used to excellence in engineering , SRAM doesn’t cut it for me. To give them credit they came up with some innovative designs but the execution and the machines *tolerances are sloppy and all over the map*. My shifters are finally here after a month and half. Should be getting them today. Will update as to how they work compared to my current XT/XTR setup. One of the interesting things about this group is that the 11 speed cassette slips on to the 9/10 speed body without a hitch. No spacer needed. Will have a better understanding in the next two days as to how it all works together. Or if it even works.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Says who? Thousands and thousands of riders use it and have no problems at all. The big 3 all make groups that perform very well. Even Microshift works well. You keep bringing up this 'tolerance' thing but don't provide any actual examples. I'm quite sure that the volume of my experience w/ bicycles in general and SRAM equipped bicycles in particular is orders of magnitude greater than yours. Trust me, I'll be the first guy to hammer a product if it's derserved. In this case it is not. You sound very much like one of those guys that hears people spout unfounded opnions and you trust them implicitly for whatever reason. 
If you want to talk design/engineering problems how about Shimano shifters and their appetite for cables? Ever heard of a SRAM shifter doing that? Me neither. 
What it comes down to is that you don't like that 'feel' of them. That's fine, you can like or not like whatever you want, but don't give me this crap about 'horror stories' and the like.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> If you want to talk design/engineering problems how about *Shimano shifters and their appetite for cables? *Ever heard of a SRAM shifter doing that? Me neither.


I can vouch for this. Granted that I love the way Shimano shifters work and feel - when they work. However, I have two bikes with Shimano shifters that like to routinely eat cables. I generally have to replace the rear every 1500-2000 miles and my last replacement was after only 800 miles. Next time this happens, I'm going to try an Aligator 31 cable since they are more flexible. If I don't get more mileage out of it, I'm ready to go to SRAM Force 22.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> Says who? Thousands and thousands of riders use it and have no problems at all. The big 3 all make groups that perform very well. Even Microshift works well. You keep bringing up this 'tolerance' thing but don't provide any actual examples. I'm quite sure that the volume of my experience w/ bicycles in general and SRAM equipped bicycles in particular is orders of magnitude greater than yours. Trust me, I'll be the first guy to hammer a product if it's derserved. In this case it is not. You sound very much like one of those guys that hears people spout unfounded opnions and you trust them implicitly for whatever reason.
> If you want to talk design/engineering problems how about Shimano shifters and their appetite for cables? Ever heard of a SRAM shifter doing that? Me neither.
> What it comes down to is that you don't like that 'feel' of them. That's fine, you can like or not like whatever you want, but don't give me this crap about 'horror stories' and the like.


Says me. I may be biased as I have Shimano on all my bikes except the two with SRAM. As to the cables on the Shimano equipped bikes, the only reason I have had to switch out cables is because the cables frayed at the end or I did not do a good job of crimping end caps. 

I got SRAM on one of my bikes in 2013 (Rival 10 speed) and Force in 2015. SRAM Force works better than Rival but I had the annoying problem of my front derailleur cable loosening while in the middle of nowhere on two different occasions. 
The “tolerances crap” is not second hand but my own experience with the friggin’ GXP bottom bracket that requires so much fiddling around to get right. As to Shimano front derailleurs, I haven’t got any new 11 speed or 12 speed experience yet, and maybe I will be *****ing about them as you do but until then, I prefer Shimano. I like Campy too but the replacement cost is prohibitive and the bs about repairable components is just that. BS. Something as simple as a hanger bolt costs the same as 60% of the cost of the whole derailleur or the part is unavailable in the USA. Everything I have written about is my experience with SRAM vs Shimano Comparing 10 speed to 10 speed components. If you think that SRAM is the greatest thing since sliced bread, more power to you.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

arshak said:


> Says me. I may be biased as I have Shimano on all my bikes except the two with SRAM. As to the cables on the Shimano equipped bikes, the only reason I have had to switch out cables is because the cables frayed at the end or I did not do a good job of crimping end caps.
> 
> I got SRAM on one of my bikes in 2013 (Rival 10 speed) and Force in 2015. SRAM *Force works better than Rival* but I had the annoying problem of my front derailleur cable loosening while in the middle of nowhere on two different occasions.
> The “tolerances crap” is not second hand but my own experience with the friggin’ *GXP bottom bracket that requires so much fiddling around to get right.* As to Shimano front derailleurs, I haven’t got any new 11 speed or 12 speed experience yet, and maybe I will *be *****ing about them as you do but until then, I prefer Shimano.* I like Campy too but the replacement cost is prohibitive and the bs about repairable components is just that. BS. Something as simple as a hanger bolt costs the same as 60% of the cost of the whole derailleur or the part is unavailable in the USA. Everything I have written about is my experience with SRAM vs Shimano Comparing 10 speed to 10 speed components. If you think that SRAM is the greatest thing since sliced bread, more power to you.
> ...


2015 Force is 11 speed, not 10. It might feel very slightly different than 10 speed Rival. 
GXP bottom brackets are hard to install? Never heard that before nor experienced it. Screw the cups in, install the crank. Done. There is no adjusting. 
I never *****ed about Shimano front derailleurs, I just said they were more involved and different than any previous derailleur. They shift very, very well.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

arshak said:


> Says me. I may be biased as I have Shimano on all my bikes except the two with SRAM. As to the cables on the Shimano equipped bikes, the only reason I have had to switch out cables is because the cables frayed at the end or I did not do a good job of crimping end caps.
> 
> I got SRAM on one of my bikes in 2013 (Rival 10 speed) and Force in 2015. SRAM Force works better than Rival but I had the annoying problem of my front derailleur cable loosening while in the middle of nowhere on two different occasions.
> The “tolerances crap” is not second hand but my own experience with the friggin’ GXP bottom bracket that requires so much fiddling around to get right. As to Shimano front derailleurs, I haven’t got any new 11 speed or 12 speed experience yet, and maybe I will be *****ing about them as you do but until then, I prefer Shimano. I like Campy too but the replacement cost is prohibitive and the bs about repairable components is just that. BS. Something as simple as a hanger bolt costs the same as 60% of the cost of the whole derailleur or the part is unavailable in the USA. Everything I have written about is my experience with SRAM vs Shimano Comparing 10 speed to 10 speed components. If you think that SRAM is the greatest thing since sliced bread, more power to you.


Nobody here is saying SRAM is the greatest thing since sliced bread. We're just saying it's not the train wreck you make it out to be.

If you don't have any experience with 11-speed Shimano, that may be why you never had a problem with cable chewing shifters. The Shimano cable chewing problem started with 5700/6700, the first generation where the shift cables go under the bar tape. 5600/6600 did not have this problem. FYI, there is no such thing as 12-speed road Shimano yet, only mountain.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Nobody here is saying SRAM is the greatest thing since sliced bread. We're just saying it's not the train wreck you make it out to be.
> 
> If you don't have any experience with 11-speed Shimano, that may be why you never had a problem with cable chewing shifters. The Shimano cable chewing problem started with 5700/6700, the first generation where the shift cables go under the bar tape. 5600/6600 did not have this problem. FYI, there is no such thing as 12-speed road Shimano yet, only mountain.


The older Shimano STI levers did actually eat cables. So did the older Campy Ergo shifters...they'd stab you in the thumb when the fraying started.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> The older Shimano STI levers did actually eat cables. So did the older Campy Ergo shifters...they'd stab you in the thumb when the fraying started.


Well that Trek I showed you has the 5600 Flight Deck shifters and didn't chew till around 6000 miles. I can tolerate that as normal maintenance. 1500-2000 miles is premature which is what I'm dealing with now with the newer shifters. 6000 is acceptable. 1500 is not acceptable. But that's just my humble opinion.


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

Update: Finally got my bike switched out to the CRX group. Between keeping an eye on my kid who is virtually going to school, I haven’t had much time to work on the bike. Then my hydraulic brakes started acting up and finally had a friend of mine troubleshoot them today.
Will ride the bike tomorrow. And give my unscientific opinion about the group.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## arshak (Jun 13, 2005)

My half assed review of the Sensah CRX 11 speed group that I bought on Ali Express to hopefully upgrade my brakes and bring my bike into the modern bike tech gestalt. I had a mixture of XT and XTR on my rigid carbon 29er that I bought online ten years ago in 2010. I had integrated 9 speed XT shifters with XTR front and rear derailleur with a 36/46 XT crank and no, that’s not a typo. This crankset was the downhill specific version that I used on my cross bike for a while. Just to make things interesting my shifters were the brake levers and rapid rise to boot. Brakes were hydraulic XT ice tech. 
I preferred to ride as a rigid set up because of the trails in my backyard were dry, dusty singletrack in the foothills of the Sandia mountains. 
One of the downside of the XT setup was that there was no adjustments to the levers. I have big paws and had to slide my hand to the edge to. Tap up or down on the levers to up or downshift. There were more than a few times when I accidentally downshifted and mumbled curses at the lever shifters design. 
A few months ago, in the beginning of the pandemic, I came across the Chinese group set and I was skeptical but it stuck in my mind and the next month, I decided in the name of research and being stuck at home with a first grader which can explain poor decision making reasons on my side, I plunged into this and then waited and waited and waited because de joy took all the joy out of my plans by slow walking the USPS mail delivery. I finally got them and put them on my bike and finally ride after fixing additional glitches like my BB and brakes with help from a friend. 

The shifters shift and the brakes stop . No revelations. Right now, this is a 1x running 11-36 in the back and the shifting is good. The brakes are a big improvement in feel and modulation at the levers. For some weird reasons, these levers work better than my XT levers although both are hydraulic.


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