# Campy 10sp hubs - industry standard bearings?



## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

From the technical manual on the Campy web site, it looks like the bearings (Part no. HB-RE023) in my post-2000 10-speed Chorus hubs are the same for both sides of the front and rear hubs. These post-2000 bearings seem to be different from the Campy bearing sets available from places like aebike.com, which seem to be for earlier Campy groups with different front and rear bearings:

http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&Category=155&Brand=60&type=T

Are these "modern" HB-RE023 bearings a standard size or will only Campy replacement parts work? If a standard size, what is it? Is there a downside to using non-Campy bearings? I think I once saw that Campy loose bearings are Grade 25, which are the commonly available high tolerance (better) bearings, but I don't know if that's true or if it applies to the "modern" HB-RE023 bearings.

I ask because I just replaced a cartridge bearing on a non-Campy bike and paid "alot" for the one I got from my LBS ($10) before I realized I could order equivalents from www.vxb.com for alot less (ten for $20, including shipping). I'm thinking ahead for future work on my Campy hubs.

Thanks all.


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

*Maybe I found an answer... is this right?*

In Campagnolo's current hub... the retainer is delrin so the balls may be snapped out and new ones snapped in easily. Oh, and they are no longer the weird 7/32", now 5/32".

posted here:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t214397-.html

by:
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org


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## Frenk (Jul 23, 2004)

*class?*

Be careful when you pick the balls, get them class 10 or better from the same lot. The higher the class (lower number) the longer the bearings will last. Balls are not all made equal (neither are men I guess!).


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*grade 25 is fine..*

Grade 25 balls are plenty good enough and only cost a few cents each.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Bearing specs*



PdxMark said:


> I once saw that Campy loose bearings are Grade 25.


Yes, you saw that. It is commonly stated. However, it is wrong. Campy bearings are MUCH better than grade 25. Bearings are like any industrial equipment - a wide range of prices and a wide range of quality. Unless you are going through completely different distribution channels, it's highly unlikely that $2 bearing sets are the same as $10 bearing sets. Of course, buying from a bike shop is going to involve a lot more markup than buying in quantity from a bearing supplier, so you have to look at the specifications to ensure that the two bearings are indeed the same. 

Whether you want to spend the $$ to get high quality replacement bearings gets back to whether you think Campy is worth the $$ in the first place. Quality is one of the things you're paying for. Then there's the question of whether the bearings need to be replaced anyway. Perhaps I've been very lucky over the years, but I have never worn out Campy bearings in hubs, pedals, or BBs. If the bearings turn smoothly without play, there's no need to replace them, IMO.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*sure about that??*

Grade 25 is a pretty well up there. Do you have any info from campy stating that their bearings are grade 10? Grade 25 is the highest grade you'll generally found sold for bike repair.


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## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

C-40 said:


> Grade 25 is a pretty well up there. Do you have any info from campy stating that their bearings are grade 10? Grade 25 is the highest grade you'll generally found sold for bike repair.


Seems to me that Third Hand or Nashbar used to sell bearings in grades 25 and 10, and pitched the 10's as "Campy grade." FWIW


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> Whether you want to spend the $$ to get high quality replacement bearings gets back to whether you think Campy is worth the $$ in the first place. Quality is one of the things you're paying for. Then there's the question of whether the bearings need to be replaced anyway. Perhaps I've been very lucky over the years, but I have never worn out Campy bearings in hubs, pedals, or BBs. If the bearings turn smoothly without play, there's no need to replace them, IMO.


Thanks for the info. You always contribute alot to the board.

I have nothing but appreciation for all my Campy stuff. I've not worn out anything other than brake pads. I just went through a bearing replacement on another non-Campy bike and, as a beginning home mechanic, did the replacement myself. I was surprised by the price differential between LBS bearing prices & open market prices. I like to support my LBS, but in that case the price difference was greater than my arbitrary pain threshold. So, looking forward to eventual possible bearing replacements on my Campy bikes, I started wondering whether industry standard bearings were available that matched the reputed quality of Campy bearings.

It sounds like Grade 25 wouldn't match the quality, and that at least Grade 10 would be necessary. Is that right?

How "often" (miles/conditions/time/whatever) do you overhaul your Campy hubs to keep everything running so well?

Thanks again.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Yes, I'm sure*

Many years ago, Bicycling had an article where they described Campy's bearing selection procedure. By working closely with their bearing suppliers and hand-selecting lots based on the QC data, Campy was reputed to obtain the equivalent of Grade 1, even though that grade is not commercially available. Presently, Campy is not willing to discuss their bearing selection procedures, considering it a highly valuable trade secret. I think it's a reasonable conclusion that they are still using some sort of hand selection of bearing lots or special relations with their suppliers to obtain very high quality. Grade 10 bearings are readily available from bearing supply houses, so I'm sure that Campy is using better than that. Grade 10 is significantly more expensive than Grade 25. I doubt that Grade 10 are "Campy quality" but they are a lot better than most replacement bearings you'll get from a bike shop. Nashbar used to sell loose bearings that they proudly proclaimed to be Grade 100. Made me laugh.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Hub maintenance*



PdxMark said:


> How "often" (miles/conditions/time/whatever) do you overhaul your Campy hubs to keep everything running so well?


Typically I overhaul my hubs annually, which works out to something like every 6-10K miles. Nuovo Record hubs really had no form of seal, so they needed to be done after any significant rain ride. When C-Record came out, the design did an excellent job of protecting the bearings, so annual maintenance was all that was needed. Same experience with Campy HPW hubs. I've just converted to Chorus/Record design, so we'll see how these work out. Based on what I read in bike magazines and forums, I suspect that a lot of people don't adjust their hubs very well. This greatly accelerates wear, whether you have them too tight or too loose. Every Campy hub I have ever had my hands on could be adjusted for no binding AND zero play. I've not had that experience with other brands, and this probably explains the much shorter life often seen. IME, good grease, a thorough annual cleaning, and proper adjustment results in very long life for Campy hubs.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Campy rocks!*



Kerry Irons said:


> Typically I overhaul my hubs annually, which works out to something like every 6-10K miles. Nuovo Record hubs really had no form of seal, so they needed to be done after any significant rain ride. When C-Record came out, the design did an excellent job of protecting the bearings, so annual maintenance was all that was needed. Same experience with Campy HPW hubs. I've just converted to Chorus/Record design, so we'll see how these work out. Based on what I read in bike magazines and forums, I suspect that a lot of people don't adjust their hubs very well. This greatly accelerates wear, whether you have them too tight or too loose. Every Campy hub I have ever had my hands on could be adjusted for no binding AND zero play. I've not had that experience with other brands, and this probably explains the much shorter life often seen. IME, good grease, a thorough annual cleaning, and proper adjustment results in very long life for Campy hubs.


Back in '84, when I got my first Campy wheels, we'd do "spin tests" to see how long our front wheels would spin holding them up in our hands, and marvel at how long the Campys would go. About 45-50,000 miles later, I still have all my Super Record hubs and bottom brackets on two bikes. I clean 'em every 8-10,000 miles, and the bearings are still as silky smooth as they were 20 years ago, no pits, no tell-tale cracks on the balls viewed under a magnifiying glass.

Campy hubs are so nicely machined, they can be adjusted really precisely by feel. You can adjust the play out of them, slap them in the dropouts, and they'll still spin forever.

I can only surmise they are over-designed, possibly to automotive tolerances, but subject to the infinitely less stresses put out by a strong rider rolling less than 200# over the roads at sub-30 mph speeds. The old Super Record crank spindle has grooves around it on either side, which pumps the water out when it gets wet. There are no rubber bushings that destroy that legendary smoothness, and always eventually wear out.

Get the best, and never worry about having to replace them.


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## eddie m (Jul 6, 2002)

I try to use new Campy ball bearings when I can get them. The grades represent the spherousity (roundness) of the balls, but each one may be of a slightly different size, even from the same production run. The best Campy sets are selected for equal diameters, which is why they cost so much more. Small details like that are the reason Record stuff lasts so long.


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## purplepaul (Nov 21, 2002)

Hey Kerry,

Is there a source you can recommend that would walk me through overhauling the hubs on my 2003 Neutrons (HPW)?

They've got over 13,000 miles on them and feel perfectly fine. But your post got me thinking that I might want to do some preventive maintenance. Of course, I don't want to break something that's not broken or misadjust them into early death.

Thanks,

Paul



Kerry Irons said:


> Typically I overhaul my hubs annually, which works out to something like every 6-10K miles. Nuovo Record hubs really had no form of seal, so they needed to be done after any significant rain ride. When C-Record came out, the design did an excellent job of protecting the bearings, so annual maintenance was all that was needed. Same experience with Campy HPW hubs. I've just converted to Chorus/Record design, so we'll see how these work out. Based on what I read in bike magazines and forums, I suspect that a lot of people don't adjust their hubs very well. This greatly accelerates wear, whether you have them too tight or too loose. Every Campy hub I have ever had my hands on could be adjusted for no binding AND zero play. I've not had that experience with other brands, and this probably explains the much shorter life often seen. IME, good grease, a thorough annual cleaning, and proper adjustment results in very long life for Campy hubs.


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## bimini (Jul 2, 2003)

*Yes, 25 is the choice But the matched lot is very important*

Finally a subject that I am a true expert on. I worked as the plant engineer for 5 years at the largest ball bearing factory in the US. We made a million pounds of balls a month. (Thats a lot of balls! as we use to say)

In the higher tollerance bearings, grade 200 and better, matching lots is manditory. The ball to ball tollerance within a lot of grade 25 balls is 0.000025" however the balls can very from the listed nominal size by as much as 0.0001". All balls used in a bearing race must be changed when replacing balls, and all the balls used must come from the same lot. Otherwise you will have balls of different sizes in the bearing and all the load will go on the biggest ball, overloading the ball and the race.

Grade 25 is really an overkill for any bicycle application. But for the few pennies more they don't hurt. I am sure campy uses the 25's just because they feel smoother when spinning the hub by hand. (the look and feel of things are very important to the Italians) You don't have to have grade 25s until you start seeing 5000 RPM's or more, and this is only due to the heat buildup of rougher bearings at those speeds. Grade 10s are only needed in very high speed racing engines and such. We also made a few grade 3's that were used in jet turbine applications at 30,000 to 60,000 RPMs. Those bearings got real pricey, just measuring something within 0.000003 inches tooks some very special and expensive equipment.

Using too smooth of ball can cause lubrication problems. If the ball is too smooth it will not carry the oil or grease around as it rotates. Grade 10 may be a bad choice depending on the type of lubricant being used. For grades lower than 25 the finishing process of the balls change. Grade 200 to 25 have a ground finish and do a good job carrying oils and lubes. Grades 10 and below have a lapped and polished finish and are normally used only in pressurized lubrication systems where oil is constantly forced around the bearings.



C-40 said:


> Grade 25 balls are plenty good enough and only cost a few cents each.


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## bimini (Jul 2, 2003)

*My guess is that Campy is hand grading them then*

For some size critical applications the bearing assembly manufacters will sort the balls within a lot to an "exact size" and then match that exact size to the inner and outer race. The balls within in the lot are measured and then sorted to an exact size. We had simple equipment for doing this automatically. Lets say the balls within a lot varied by as much as .000025 inches from each other we could sort the lot so that the all the balls were within .000010" of each other. The balls still had a grade 25 finish and grade 25 roundness but the average size within each ball of the group was within grade 10 tollerance. 

I really do not know why Campy would need to do this since their bearing races are adjustable. It is normally only done with cartridge bearings and then done to accomodate manufacturing variations of the races, not the balls.

PS: the balls we sold to some of the Schwinn suppliers back in the 80's were grade 500 so it is no wonder Campy has a reputation for good bearings with that sort of competition. (We also sold all our defective lots to Ford, I have never bought a Ford! But that is a whole different discussion)

But, to be honest, grade 500 is perfectly suitable for the application. Bicycle bearings are very far from being considered high speed. It is only an Achedimic discussion of which ones feels the smoothest and which wheel turns the longest with no load on it. In reality there is very little energy lost in a very rough feeling grade 500 bearing. It is still easy to hang onto the hub of an undamaged rough feeling bearing with light finger tip pressure, so how much energy could really be lost? Now if I were able to maintain a cadence of 10,000 RPMs I would want the Grade 10s. Otherwise the bearings would overheat from friction and gall.



Kerry Irons said:


> Yes, you saw that. It is commonly stated. However, it is wrong. Campy bearings are MUCH better than grade 25. Bearings are like any industrial equipment - a wide range of prices and a wide range of quality. Unless you are going through completely different distribution channels, it's highly unlikely that $2 bearing sets are the same as $10 bearing sets. Of course, buying from a bike shop is going to involve a lot more markup than buying in quantity from a bearing supplier, so you have to look at the specifications to ensure that the two bearings are indeed the same.
> 
> Whether you want to spend the $$ to get high quality replacement bearings gets back to whether you think Campy is worth the $$ in the first place. Quality is one of the things you're paying for. Then there's the question of whether the bearings need to be replaced anyway. Perhaps I've been very lucky over the years, but I have never worn out Campy bearings in hubs, pedals, or BBs. If the bearings turn smoothly without play, there's no need to replace them, IMO.


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## winstonc (Nov 18, 2002)

Thanks for giving us information that cuts through all the voodoo!

It's been my experience that bearing smoothness and how long an unloaded wheel turns are not necessarily related. It depends on a lot of things, including aerodymics, the wheel's moment of inertia, and bearing seals. I have old wheels with pitted cones that will spin for a long time, but that's because they're very massive and have no rubber contact seals. On the other hand, I have wheels with King hubs that don't spin as long -- because they have much lighter rims and agressive seals.

It seems to me that wind resistance at the spokes dissipates much more energy than the bearings, unless you have really, really bad bearings.


I'm not sure price of Campy stuff is very indicative their cost; there's currently a thread on rec.bicycles.tech making fun of the price of their chain lube, which is $35-$45 for a 200ml bottle. The modus operandi of a business generally to charge what the market will bear -- and as long as their bearing grades are shrouded in Campy mystique, they'll be able to keep the price high because consumers won't know any better. Is it 25? Is it 10? People don't know, so they'll just buy Campy bearings.


Anyway, what's the difference between grade 25 bearings sorted into lots with .000010" variance and plain old grade 10 bearings? Is the difference in how far off-spec they can be?


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Hub overhaul*

Paul,

Go to http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/NEUTRON_PART2.pdf for instructions for an overhaul - it's pretty straightforward.


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## purplepaul (Nov 21, 2002)

Thanks Kerry.

Just a question or two. How much grease should be used to coat the bearings? Also, I was under the impression that properly adjusting the hubs is a finicky procedure. Is this not correct? Is there some way to feel if it is properly adjusted?

Thanks again.

Paul



Kerry Irons said:


> Paul,
> 
> Go to http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/NEUTRON_PART2.pdf for instructions for an overhaul - it's pretty straightforward.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Grease load*



purplepaul said:


> How much grease should be used to coat the bearings?


Think Baby Bear. Not too much, not too little, but just right. It's a little hard to describe, but there's a pretty broad range so you don't need to stress about it. There should be enough grease so that when you turn the axle, there is grease displaced to the side of the bearings, the bearings are fully coated, and the grease is forming little "hairs" on the bearings. If you picture the amount of toothpaste that they show people putting on their brush in the TV ads (does anybody use that much toothpaste??!!), cut that in half for each side of the hub. What you don't want is so much grease that it's going to be oozing out of every place.



purplepaul said:


> Also, I was under the impression that properly adjusting the hubs is a finicky procedure. Is there some way to feel if it is properly adjusted?


I guess this is in the eye of the beholder. My friends and I taught ourselves to do this when we were in 10th grade working on cheap Normandy hubs, where you turned the cones until you had just a bit of play you could feel with your fingers - cheap hubs will not let you eliminate binding without having a trace of play. With the Campy system now, it is extremely easy, IMO. As I said in another post, you're looking for a situation where you have no binding and no play. No binding means that the axle turns smoothly with your fingertips - if there is any "catch" as you turn the axle there is either some dirt still in there or the bearings are too tight. Cleaning out all the old grease from the hub, cones, and bearings prevents leaving any dirt behind - use a clean rag and keep wiping until your rag comes out clean. 

Wiggling the axle with your fingertips will tell you if there is any play. With the current Campy system, you can fine tune adjustment when the wheel is clamped in the frame - you loosen the allen screw and turn the clamp with your fingers or needle nose pliers. With the wheel in the frame, wiggle the rim and feel for any play. If you have play, turn the clamp a little bit and check again. If you have no play, unscrew the clamp until you feel play and then screw it in just a bit to eliminate the play. Note, play is a clunking feeling as you wiggle the rim, not just being able to move the rim, which may be actual flexing of the wheel.


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## purplepaul (Nov 21, 2002)

Thanks, Kerry. I appreciate it.

Paul




Kerry Irons said:


> Think Baby Bear. Not too much, not too little, but just right. It's a little hard to describe, but there's a pretty broad range so you don't need to stress about it. There should be enough grease so that when you turn the axle, there is grease displaced to the side of the bearings, the bearings are fully coated, and the grease is forming little "hairs" on the bearings. If you picture the amount of toothpaste that they show people putting on their brush in the TV ads (does anybody use that much toothpaste??!!), cut that in half for each side of the hub. What you don't want is so much grease that it's going to be oozing out of every place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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