# Why are carbon wheels so expensive?



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

I've always thought of myself as too fat, too slow and too poor to give any consideration to buying carbon wheels. But I am curious, why are they so much more expensive? (The equivalent of my $1100 wheelset is about $3K, which is twice the price of my wife's carbon-framed Specialized bike, and almost 3 times more than my wheels -- which I thought were quite expensive). What would that additional $2K hypothetically buy me? The weight difference doesn't seem huge, so it makes me wonder if the wheels are just inherently better for something of roughly comparable weight? Or is it just a case of recreational cyclists wanting to emulate professional racers, for whom the cost is not a major issue?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

wgscott said:


> I've always thought of myself as too fat, too slow and too poor to give any consideration to buying carbon wheels. But I am curious, why are they so much more expensive? (The equivalent of my $1100 wheelset is about $3K, which is twice the price of my wife's carbon-framed Specialized bike, and almost 3 times more than my wheels -- which I thought were quite expensive). What would that additional $2K hypothetically buy me?


Why does a Porsche 911 cost $60,000 more than a Subaru BRZ?


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Carbon fiber wheels?


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

They don't have to be. Check out companies like November, Boyd, and Flo. Designing their own rims and doing wind tunnel testing and selling for $1200-$1500. The new Flo carbon clinchers were just announced and seem very impressive although not available quite yet. There's some really good information in their blog. While these are still more expensive than a good set of custom alloys it's not by quite as huge margins as those from Zipp, Enve etc.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

That was interesting. I played with the November website. My current wheels come out to the same price I paid. Choosing something similar with their carbon rims is only about $500 more. So I guess it comes down to who makes the rim (and possibly where).


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

wgscott said:


> I've always thought of myself as too fat, too slow and too poor to give any consideration to buying carbon wheels. But I am curious, why are they so much more expensive?


Because Carbon is an exotic, not easy to get material and it's a pain to turn it into a wheel. Is it worth the extra price? That depends on the potential buyer.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

CF has to be laid up by hand. That takes time from a skilled worker. The molds are expensive. They also need equipment to inflate the bladder inside the rim, and a large autoclave for curing. The production takes much longer than aluminium rims. All those make the rim cost much higher.

Aluminium rims are extruded through a die into a coil, then cut and joined into rims. The extrusion machine probably is not cheap but unlike CF molds it can be used for different rims with only a change of dies.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

the decals..





and marketing


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

cobra_kai said:


> The new Flo carbon clinchers were just announced and seem very impressive although not available quite yet. There's some really good information in their blog. While these are still more expensive than a good set of custom alloys it's not by quite as huge margins as those from Zipp, Enve etc.


Wow: ........



> For every set of ceramic bearing wheels sold at FLO, we donate a bike and helmet to a child in need.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

tvad said:


> Why does a Porsche 911 cost $60,000 more than a Subaru BRZ?


Bottom llne: Because people will pay it.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Because they used to be new and cutting edge technology and able to command the price they did. An aluminum rim wheel could not duplicate the aero performance of the carbons at the weight of the carbons. The carbons are also laterally stiffer and can support wheel s with fewer spokes which is considered desirable by many. Now that they are becoming more mainstream, prices (and margins) are being adjusted accordingly.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

ericm979 said:


> CF has to be laid up by hand. That takes time from a skilled worker. The molds are expensive. They also need equipment to inflate the bladder inside the rim, and a large autoclave for curing. The production takes much longer than aluminium rims. All those make the rim cost much higher.
> 
> Aluminium rims are extruded through a die into a coil, then cut and joined into rims. The extrusion machine probably is not cheap but unlike CF molds it can be used for different rims with only a change of dies.


This. I would add that there is probably a lot of engineering added into the cost as well, they need to get paid and the software they use isn't cheap. Mostly though, I think it's the fact that they can't use an automated process like you can for much (all?) of the aluminum rim making.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Bottom llne: Because people will pay it.


Gold star for you Mr. Blue Cheese Head.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Several reasons, not necessarily including but not necessarily limited to the below list:

1. Increased development costs - design, engineering, pre-production testing, etc. Not that there aren’t development costs for aluminum rims, but (a lot) more tends to be done for carbon.
2. Increased incremental part costs. Aluminum rim tooling is actually more expensive than a carbon rim mold. However, once you've paid the tooling, the cost of each aluminum rim is quite low, while each carbon rim is more expensive. Carbon rim construction has higher material costs (by a bunch) and higher unit labor cost. 
3. Insurance. Because we directly import carbon wheels, our insurance policy is 10x (actually more than 10x) what it would be if we bought through a US distributor. This isn't exclusive to carbon, as if you did the same with aluminum rims you would still need the more expensive policy, but an awful lot of “proprietary” aluminum rims (Boyd’s I know are an exception to this) are standard rims you can buy through a domestic source. I’m sure there are plenty of wheel companies that don’t carry appropriate liability insurance. People should also be aware that a lot of offshore vendors may have liability insurance, but it won’t necessarily answer a US claim. 
4. Increased warranty costs. Carbon rims cost more so they cost more to replace if something goes wrong, and carbon rims have a somewhat higher rate of something going wrong than aluminum rims do.
5. Increased holding costs. Our minimum order for carbon rims costs about the same as a several month supply of alloy rims, and we sell a lot more alloy rims than we do carbon. When we place and pay for a carbon order, we wait about 60 days before we see the rims. Alloy rims can easily go from a placed PO to a shipped customer order in 10 days. That doesn’t usually happen (we try to keep about 30 days worth of alloy rims on hand) but it can.
6. Sponsorship. When we investigated sponsoring a team about 18 months ago, we talked with one particular team that we knew was a bit too ambitious to fit with our plans. This was a high-ish level domestic women’s team. The materials bill for sponsoring them would have been around $100k – that’s not a retail number, that’s the cost of our parts. It would have taken weeks to build all the wheels, and another huge pile of money to get anything out of the sponsorship. We learned quite convincingly that sponsorship is a complete waste for us. That example is one reasonably small team. Some companies spend millions on sponsorship, which gets passed to their customers. Alloy rims are at most an afterthought in that whole process – carbon wheels are what’s being promoted there. 

Again, not a complete list, and not everyone of these items is applicable to every carbon wheel out there, but it should give a lot of insight into the cost question.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Thanks. That is quite interesting, especially #6. It has made me wonder, when one sees a certain brand emblazoned all over the place, how much the average Joe who buys the products at full retail (perhaps out of an induced sense of enve), is subsidizing the sponsored team.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

November Dave, you don't believe major brand carbon wheels are priced higher because buyers desire exclusivity (perhaps unwittingly/subconsciously in some cases)? Think Enve, Zipp, Lightweight, Campagnolo...


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

tvad said:


> November Dave, you don't believe major brand carbon wheels are priced higher because buyers desire exclusivity (perhaps unwittingly/subconsciously in some cases)? Think Enve, Zipp, Lightweight, Campagnolo...


Not Dave, but I ride a set of his Pacenti/WI wheels. I would say you have 2 huge cost adders for those guys you mention - sponsorship (no. 6) and distribution (not on the list above, as Dave sells direct to consumers. 
Most big name bikes and and wheels go through 2 layers of distribution. Usually the markup is greater for high end stuff, especially at the point of sale layer (LBS).


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

There are a lot of things that can add to the price of wheels. Prestige premiums and supply/sales chain length are two good ones. Bro deals and brand ambassador programs, too - anything where some pay less in the hope of getting others to pay more. 

What I tried to do in my post was identify the particular things that make carbon wheels discreetly more than aluminum wheels. Not all the things on my list are true for all carbon wheels (some don't have much at all of my #1, whereas ours don't have any of my #6, for two examples). Adding sponsorship to my list is debatable, but my assertion is that where the brand awareness generated by sponsorship extends throughout the brand's range, the sponsorship really exists to drive carbon sales.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

wgscott said:


> Thanks. That is quite interesting, especially #6. It has made me wonder, when one sees a certain brand emblazoned all over the place, how much the average Joe who buys the products at full retail (perhaps out of an induced sense of enve), is subsidizing the sponsored team.


No different with your Nike shoes or whatever else brand you choose. I would suggest that a rather large chunk of the cost of the product goes toward sponsorship dollars of athletes and teams. Shoes as an example are relatively cheap to make, but the average joe pays the high retail price anyway so Tiger Woods can earn his millions....


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Several reasons.

-Their target market is low income utility cyclist who aren't willing to pay a premium for small gains.
-No one thinks they look cool.
-The very best cyclists are never seen on TV using them.
-It's a 300 year old technology and they sell massive volume so production is fully automated and there are massive economies of scale.

Seriously though, what did you expect to hear? You really don't know why things cost a lot?


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks for the detailed answer November Dave!

I would also add that aluminum rims have been around a lot longer and a lot more of them have been made. Therefore, producing an aluminum rim has had many more years to be refined, and they have a greater economy of scale.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

cobra_kai said:


> They don't have to be. Check out companies like November, Boyd, and Flo. Designing their own rims and doing wind tunnel testing and selling for $1200-$1500.


Yes, by using cheap Chinese labor. Zipp pays a living wage and has their wheels made and assembled in the USA. Enve lies about US production.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Notvintage said:


> Yes, by using cheap Chinese labor. Zipp pays a living wage and has their wheels made and assembled in the USA. Enve lies about US production.


It's easy to assume that because parts are made in Asia that it must be done by poverty level "slave" labor. I have enough spent a lot of time in all the factories that produce for us and have never encountered anyou dangerous conditions or anything resembling paying below living levels. In fact at the factory that produces our carbon rims (they are the world's largest producer of hockey sticks) they get an hour and a half lunch and full vacations. 

Sure, they may not make as much as a US worker, but the cost of living is a lot less as well. I've had amazing meals at restaurants that cost me 3 to 4 dollars. I believe everyone has their strengths and weaknesses in manufacturing and engineering. For us that is why we have parts produced in 5 different countries, including the US. Spend enough time hanging out with people in other countries and you start to realize just how great everyone can be in their own way.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Notvintage said:


> Yes, by using cheap Chinese labor. Zipp pays a living wage and has their wheels made and assembled in the USA. Enve lies about US production.


wheels are usa.. the rest not so much.. could be a number of places. Don't let the hatred make you a liar too. By not being specific you are guilty of the same stuff as Enve.


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## tduncan86 (Nov 12, 2014)

If I were to ever purchase another set of carbon rims - I would not buy the cheap chineese ones from ebay (specifically diy-bike). Zipp, Easton, Enve or Shimano or another reputable firm maybe. 
THe cheap set I purchased - were much lighter and faster than the OEM Bontrager aluminum - but were also way more dangerous. Both failed by cracking along the centre of the tube bed (spoke hole to spoke hole). Bad engineering, bad construction or both. 
And my replacement aluminums wheels have been much more comfortable and secure to ride.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

ericm979 said:


> Aluminium rims are extruded through a die into a coil, then cut and joined into rims.


Aluminum extrusions are extruded in straight lengths. Then the rolled and cut.



> The extrusion machine probably is not cheap but unlike CF molds it can be used for different rims with only a change of dies.


No need to own an extruder. I've designed and made extrusions without having a machine. There's a boat load of companies that do custom extrusions. Supply them with a design for a rim profile and they'll manufacture the dies and provide the extrusions. 

Aluminum extrusions are pretty cheap. A custom die will run in the $1500-$2000 range. There will be a min. order, usually the weight of a billet (500 or 1000 lb). Maybe up to 5000lb min. depending on the company.


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## 4slomo (Feb 11, 2008)

I generally only purchase components that are well-engineered, -tested, and -manufactured, and especially for my wheel builds. Too many people judge carbon rims based on their appearance and features, rather than based on their proven reliability in use. There is sufficient competition among the manufacturers to ensure that their prices are competitive. As others have previously demonstrated, there is a lot of costly hand work required to manufacture carbon rims. The design costs, including testing costs, are even more important even if not apparent to those merely looking for the lowest price.


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## cappsmith (May 23, 2008)

Lots of posts on technology and Chinese labor practices. My suggestion is make a trip to your LBS and set up a demo of CF wheels on your bike. You can talk about it until you are blue in the face but until you demo them for a few rides you'll never know whether there is value in a CF wheelset. 
MY LBS put me on a set of Bontrager Aeolus 5's early last year while my Mavic wheels went back to the factory for a warranty rebuild. The most notable difference between my Mavic Ksyrium SL's and the Bontrager CF was the ride quality and a 10-12% increase in my average speed. 
As of January this year i now own the Bontragers in that my Mavics were beyond wear limits for repair after 27,000 miles. 
Expensive? Somewhat, but for someone that rides nearly everyday (retired) it was worth it.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

wgscott said:


> ....my $1100 wheelset....


My carbon wheelset cost half what your wheelset did and weighs 1340g. It's aero and feels fast but stable in gusty winds.
Farsports 38 & 50mm tall "bulged V" rims, 23mm wide.
20/24 CX-Rays, radial front, 2x rear, internal alloy nipples
EdHub hubs

No name brand or stickers and you gotta handle any warranty situation yourself without the help of a bike shop and deal with shipping back and forth to China. But aero 1340g wheels for $550!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

@lelandjt
Check those "internal alloy nipples" once in a while


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

ericm979 said:


> Aluminium rims are extruded through a die into a coil, then cut and joined into rims. The extrusion machine probably is not cheap but unlike CF molds it can be used for different rims with only a change of dies.


Aluminum rims are very simple to make. Squeeze it through the die and roll into a round shape, two simple steps.
Carbon is very labor intensive. Laying up the cloth, putting it in the mold, putting the mold in the machine, baking it, etc. A lot of steps involving people's handiwork.
Labor is the variable that affects the cost.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

dcgriz said:


> @lelandjt
> Check those "internal alloy nipples" once in a while


Fortunately they're anodized Sapims and not the non-anodized Pillars that are so notorious for corroding but still it's nice that I use tubes and a snap-on rim strips so after rain or washing they can be dried out. In the MTB world there was a rash of corroded Pillar nipples in Enves that were tubeless and accumulating moisture.


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

cappsmith said:


> The most notable difference between my Mavic Ksyrium SL's and the Bontrager CF was the ride quality and* a 10-12% increase in my average speed.*


C'mon now..


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

Edit- started new topic..


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Lelandjt said:


> Fortunately they're anodized Sapims and not the non-anodized Pillars that are so notorious for corroding but still it's nice that I use tubes and a snap-on rim strips so after rain or washing they can be dried out. In the MTB world there was a rash of corroded Pillar nipples in Enves that were tubeless and accumulating moisture.


Glad you seem to be aware of what has been reported happening. Possible amonia permeation through the Gorilla tape was blamed as the primary culprit. I'm not sure whether or not this was the only thing happening; hard to tell from these stories as they are retold from multiple people over multiple times.
However, galvanic corrosion between carbon and aluminum is real and can happen under the right environment. A carbon rim with drilled spoke holes leaves the carbon exposed and the anodizing of the nipple could be compromised at the point of contact during the tensioning process. Whether or not that could cause galvanic corrosion issues depends on the environment the wheel is exposed to. 
A safer choice for harsher conditions would be brass nipples but they come with a small weight penalty.


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