# Lighter Wheels Myth ?



## Hubs (Jun 15, 2013)

Would the consensus here that dropping 500 grams of a wheel set will make no difference on a recreational club rider who can average 17 mph on a 50 mile ride with rolling hills . 
Or 
Just the love of bike riding and the need to change things up that I am about to purchase some new lighter wheels and then justify purchase after first ride with superlatives about how much better the overall ride quality and cornering and quicker spin up . With no measurable improvement in average speed . :mad2: :thumbsup:
Love to ride my bike . Cheers !


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

They will spin up faster as there is less mass to move. The bike will "feel" more lively but that's short lived as it's a relative feeling. Once up to speed there will be no difference. When you let off the power they will slow faster than the heavier wheels. Accelerations are but a small part of any ride. You will have less weight to carry up hills. Club rides are rarely done at maximum speed. Those are the facts.

In the real world though if you did a whole year of rides on the heavier wheels (and kept times and average speeds) and then a whole year on the lighter wheels, kept the same data and did a comparison, assuming the same levels of fitness (and I have done all this) then you will see that there is no actual, measurable difference.

After all, how much faster would you expect to be with 1.25 waterbottles versus 2 full waterbottles? A full small waterbottle weighs 648g.


----------



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

With that much loss of weight your bike will feel snappier, and there will be a placebo effect, but your average speed will change imperceptibly in the kind of riding you describe.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

If the weight were shed from the rims only, then absolutely.

If the weight were shed from the rims, spokes, and nipples; the answer would be yes.

If the weight were shed from the hubs, then no.


Do you plan to ever race competitively? If the answer is no, then durability would be more important than lighter weight.


----------



## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

I dropped 500g from my wheels...I now leave flaming ruts in the ground when I ride.

I also got stuck in 1955 the last time I did a downhill high speed run. Let me assure you, once you hit 88 mph...your going to see some serious sh*t.

All joking aside, I really did cut 500g from my rather heavy stock wheels. The difference in ride feel was immediate...that could be for many reasons outside of just weight, but I know I love the way they ride.

500g is 500g. Trimming a bike one component at a time adds up eventually. Not to be a weight weenie, but 500g is 1.1 lb. if you can trim that 2-3 times off of a bike that came stock at 18lbs...you'll have a pretty light rig (not that 18lbs isn't light already).


----------



## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Aside from lighter weight the increase in riding or placebo affect, and increase in durability that can be had from a new wheelset are worth it to many riders that are not necessarily looking for more speed.


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

cda 455 said:


> If the weight were shed from the rims only, then absolutely.
> 
> If the weight were shed from the rims, spokes, and nipples; the answer would be yes.
> 
> If the weight were shed from the hubs, then no.


Not really. Like Mike said, you will notice the difference in the first few pedal strokes when you accelerate, but the actual speed differences are small. Lighter wheels have less gyroscopic effects so they will change the way the bike handles (quicker steering). It's different, but it depends on the rider if they like it. It also depends on the bike. I have had snappy handling bikes the I didn't like lighter wheels on as much. I prefer a heavier, more aero rim on that bike. My other bike has slower, more stable steering and lighter wheels make a positive effect on the steering feel.

Trust me I have road bike wheels that have rim weights that vary from 220g to 500g on the same bike. That's your 500g right there and I didn't even get to the lighter tires. My top speed is no slower on the heavier wheels. There are other factors that effect climbing speed like your fitness, what you ate and how long the ride is that make a much bigger difference. You won't be able to point to lighter wheels to make your PR over a climb with all the other factors. I do enjoy the "feel" of lighter wheels, but I'm being realistic.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Hubs said:


> Would the consensus here that dropping 500 grams of a wheel set will make no difference on a recreational club rider who can average 17 mph on a 50 mile ride with rolling hills...


It depends what "no" means. In my experience, the difference won't be perceptible or affect your ability to hang with the group.


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ergott said:


> Not really. Like Mike said, you will notice the difference in the first few pedal strokes when you accelerate, but the actual speed differences are small. Lighter wheels have less gyroscopic effects so they will change the way the bike handles (quicker steering). It's different, but it depends on the rider if they like it. It also depends on the bike. I have had snappy handling bikes the I didn't like lighter wheels on as much. I prefer a heavier, more aero rim on that bike. My other bike has slower, more stable steering and lighter wheels make a positive effect on the steering feel.
> 
> Trust me I have road bike wheels that have rim weights that vary from 220g to 500g on the same bike. That's your 500g right there and I didn't even get to the lighter tires. My top speed is no slower on the heavier wheels. There are other factors that effect climbing speed like your fitness, what you ate and how long the ride is that make a much bigger difference. You won't be able to point to lighter wheels to make your PR over a climb with all the other factors. I do enjoy the "feel" of lighter wheels, but I'm being realistic.


I have done many many tests between wheelsets and tires on the same bike and have recorded all the results (5 years of them now; over 500 tests). I remember one of them well - between wheels and tires I shed 508 grams (close enough to 18oz) overnight and went for the same very hard 31-miler. My time was no faster even though the lighter wheels and tires felt much more nimble. As I said before - they accelerate a little bit faster, cruise the same as if 508 grams less water was being carried (ie - no difference) and decelerate faster. Net result - if there is a difference it's well within the daily fluctuations caused by many other much larger variables.

Some days I go out on a hard ride and I'm (let's say) 1mph faster than the ride before. If I was unrealistic (which I'm not) and had changed wheels between rides, I'd claim the difference was due to the wheels. But then I repeat the ride a few days later with the light wheels still fitted and I drag my arse. So what the heck happened? We both will never be swayed by the placebo effect of any bike or bike part. I'll prove it (the best I can without scientific instruments) or it doesn't exist. Others findings or opinions may vary.

So peeps should choose wheels (or any bike part) for the right reasons and not unrealistic ones.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I'm sure it's only in my mind but I actually feel faster on a rolling or flat course with the heavier of my wheels. Basically that boils down to maintaining speed being a bigger factor in most rides than acceleration is and it 'feels' as if deceleration is slower.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

Hubs said:


> Would the consensus here that dropping 500 grams of a wheel set will make no difference on a recreational club rider who can average 17 mph on a 50 mile ride with rolling hills.


the new wheels may be more attractive aesthetically and they may inspire you to ride more.

other than those advantages, you won't see squat in terms of faster average speeds.

buy them because you want them, not because they will improve your performance.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

cda 455 said:


> If the weight were shed from the rims only, then absolutely.
> 
> If the weight were shed from the rims, spokes, and nipples; the answer would be yes.
> 
> If the weight were shed from the hubs, then no.



well, you got one right anyways...


----------



## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm sure it's only in my mind but I actually feel faster on a rolling or flat course with the heavier of my wheels. Basically that boils down to maintaining speed being a bigger factor in most rides than acceleration is and it 'feels' as if deceleration is slower.


i definitely know the feeling you're talking about. The heavy discs and trispoke that i used felt like they wanted to maintain speed like a train. However, i much prefered my 50mm light weight wheels for all around riding.


----------



## Bog (Feb 2, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm sure it's only in my mind but I actually feel faster on a rolling or flat course with the heavier of my wheels. Basically that boils down to maintaining speed being a bigger factor in most rides than acceleration is and it 'feels' as if deceleration is slower.


I basically agree with this. I built up a heavier set of wheels and tyres for my steel framed Winter training bike and I just love the way it seems to roll along. I don't really notice the extra weight on climbs either. Maybe I will when I jump back on the carbon bike for events in the Summer!


----------



## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

Lighter wheels will be easier to climb since your pushing less weight uphill. The bike will likely steer quicker and feel more responsive. But as stated above, once up to speed, weight makes no difference. 
I ride in South Florida, very flat, windy. After trying several wheels from the $200 Oval wheels I have to Enve 3.4 and a few models between in cost, I actually like my heavy OEM wheels.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

The posts from Mike and Ergott on this subject could not be more on target. 

The point that Ergott made about considering the bike front end handling specifics when selecting wheels seems to have gone under the radar judging from the posts that followed. It is absolutely true.

One thing I may add is that the developed rec rider that can sustain AA pace club rides and rides with a bunch that can do and follow tight pacelines may benefit from the lighter and/or aero wheels because the one second difference they make may be enough to stay with the group or get dropped if you are at the end of your power output. Every other case, including the case the OP mentioned, no difference whatsover worth the money you spend for them unless one puts value in the the placebo euphoria that is shortlived anyway.


----------



## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> They will spin up faster as there is less mass to move. The bike will "feel" more lively but that's short lived as it's a relative feeling. Once up to speed there will be no difference. When you let off the power they will slow faster than the heavier wheels. Accelerations are but a small part of any ride. You will have less weight to carry up hills. Club rides are rarely done at maximum speed. Those are the facts.
> 
> In the real world though if you did a whole year of rides on the heavier wheels (and kept times and average speeds) and then a whole year on the lighter wheels, kept the same data and did a comparison, assuming the same levels of fitness (and I have done all this) then you will see that there is no actual, measurable difference.
> 
> After all, how much faster would you expect to be with 1.25 waterbottles versus 2 full waterbottles? A full small waterbottle weighs 648g.


How much faster? I don't know, but certainly faster. If I'm working at my absolute limit and you reduce the amount of resistance than I can go faster. Ever see pros jetison water bottles or spray water out before a climb or sprint. There's a popular myth on this board that small improvements don't make a difference. Those riders must be riding well below their limits. Ride at your limit. Time your rides or sections. Switch to lighter or more aero gear or change to a more aero position and you will see a difference in time and average speed.


----------



## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

Even 200-300g makes a real difference. I don't buy the whole "once up to speed" argument at all; Once up to speed, then you have to slow down again because of traffic, a stop sign, a red light or a dozen other things. How many times are you going to be spinning up?

I don't think heavier wheels take longer to slow down, either. Wheels slowing down depends on rider position on the bike (wind resistance) and rider+bike weight. 

Lighter wheels matter.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Lelandjt said:


> *Those riders must be riding well below their limits.* Ride at your limit. Time your rides or sections. Switch to lighter or more aero gear or change to a more aero position and you will see a difference in time and average speed.


Exactly. Most people are like "I bought aero wheels and didn't really feel a difference at 18 mph". Try riding a solo 28 MPH crit lap, it hurts a lot less with an aero wheel. Do most people "need" this difference, no, but it's definitely there.

In addition to climbing I managed to cut off 20-25 seconds off a 20 minute climb by using my lighter bike. I weighed the same each time and held 295 watts average for both climbs.


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I think you guys need to quantify words terms like "a lot" and "real difference"

You are welcome to crunch the physics yourself if you like.
http://analyticcycling.com/


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Lelandjt said:


> How much faster? I don't know, but certainly faster. If I'm working at my absolute limit and you reduce the amount of resistance than I can go faster. Ever see pros jetison water bottles or spray water out before a climb or sprint. There's a popular myth on this board that small improvements don't make a difference. Those riders must be riding well below their limits. Ride at your limit. Time your rides or sections. Switch to lighter or more aero gear or change to a more aero position and you will see a difference in time and average speed.


If you are working at your absolute limit then it is called a RACE not a REC ride. When you race you do what you need to do to give yourself an advantage to win. Some throw their bottles out as you said and some others pee in their pants.

Club rides, which are the point of this thread, are not races; especially rec rides with a 17 mph AMS the OP is referring to. Your statement "_There's a popular myth on this board that small improvements don't make a difference._" is true if its one's bank account what you are referring to, at least within the range of activity the OP is asking about. Because its working for some top echelon athlete that has covered all other bases including his posture, it does not mean it will work the same for the weekend warrior riding under totally different conditions.

Cycling is the only sport I know where all the equipment the top racers use are specifically marketed to the masses. (Well, basketball shoes may be the second closest.... ). I always suggest to people to use their head before plopping their dollars.


----------



## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

> Try riding a solo 28 MPH crit lap, it hurts a lot less with an aero wheel. Do most people "need" this difference, no, but it's definitely there.


Define "a lot less." Saving 15-20 watts (best case scenario at the right yaw angle) when you're putting out 500-600 watts for a few minutes isn't all that significant. If all of the better racers are running deep section wheels it gives you no comparative advantage. If the guy you're contesting has shallow AL wheels but an extra 75 watts on your FTP it probably doesn't matter either.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Dunbar said:


> Define "a lot less." Saving 15-20 watts (best case scenario at the right yaw angle) when you're putting out 500-600 watts for a few minutes isn't all that significant. If all of the better racers are running deep section wheels it gives you no comparative advantage. If the guy you're contesting has shallow AL wheels but an extra 75 watts on your FTP it probably doesn't matter either.


So let's say 30 watts (box section to good quality aero wheel). My 3 minute power is 375 watts. I've held for 345 for 8 minutes before. That 30 watts means I can ride at the same speed for an extra 5 minutes. I'd call that significant.


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

deviousalex said:


> In addition to climbing I managed to cut off 20-25 seconds off a 20 minute climb by using my lighter bike. I weighed the same each time and held 295 watts average for both climbs.


That's about a 4-5lb drop in weight for that sort of time savings.


----------



## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> So let's say 30 watts (box section to good quality aero wheel). My 3 minute power is 375 watts. I've held for 345 for 8 minutes before. That 30 watts means I can ride at the same speed for an extra 5 minutes. I'd call that significant.


I've never seen anybody claim aero wheels save 30 watts on a road bike. Nobody who cares about aerodynamics ride box section rims. November Bicycles is pretty honest with their aero drag savings numbers. Here's what they say their Rail (and the benchmark Zipp 404 FC) save compared to the old Velocity A23 based FSW23 wheel. The A23 is a shallow fairly un-aero aluminum wheel.

BTW, how fast are you going on 375 watts? Because if you're going 25mph you can see the savings are under 10 watts best to worst.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Dunbar said:


> Nobody who cares about aerodynamics ride box section rims.


I'm not arguing that, what I'm arguing is that people say "aero wheels don't help". My point is they do.



> BTW, how fast are you going on 375 watts? Because if you're going 25mph you can see the savings are under 10 watts best to worst.


That was a 28 mph lap and there was a significant headwind on one part of the lap IIRC.


----------



## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

I did a real world experiment yesterday. Let me first say I'm an enthusiast. I don't race or compete other than with myself. I took my heaviest bike (Lynskey titanium R230) and mounted my heaviest wheels (Hed Jet 4) and also the most aero wheels I own. I set out on a familiar ride that's 65 miles and has 3,000 feet of total climbing. One hill is 1,600 feet up and about 5.5 miles long. The rest of the ride is either reasonably flat or rollers. The Hed's are 250 grams heavier than the normal wheels I have on this bike. Tires are the same. As it turned out my ride time was within two minutes of my best and the big climb posted a third best time for me. I believe the wind will also always have an effect as no two rides are the same in that aspect. I "felt" like I was working harder on the climb but the HR data said I wasn't. I "felt" like I had a small advantage on the flats but the segment data didn't show it. The "overall" performance was pretty much spot on to my normal outcome. I guess what I'm trying to say is, it seemed to come down to the feel on the wheels under different parts of the ride. I'm going to continue these tests for the next two weeks while rotating three sets of wheels. Kind of interesting.


----------



## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> I'm not arguing that, what I'm arguing is that people say "aero wheels don't help". My point is they do.


 ~10W savings when you're belting out 375 watts is not that big.



> That was a 28 mph lap and there was a significant headwind on one part of the lap IIRC.


28mph seems pretty fast on only 375 watts. Especially if you were fighting a significant headwind on part of the course.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

willieboy said:


> I did a real world experiment yesterday. Let me first say I'm an enthusiast. I don't race or compete other than with myself. I took my heaviest bike (Lynskey titanium R230) and mounted my heaviest wheels (Hed Jet 4) and also the most aero wheels I own. I set out on a familiar ride that's 65 miles and has 3,000 feet of total climbing. One hill is 1,600 feet up and about 5.5 miles long. The rest of the ride is either reasonably flat or rollers. The Hed's are 250 grams heavier than the normal wheels I have on this bike. Tires are the same. As it turned out my ride time was within two minutes of my best and the big climb posted a third best time for me. I believe the wind will also always have an effect as no two rides are the same in that aspect. I "felt" like I was working harder on the climb but the HR data said I wasn't. I "felt" like I had a small advantage on the flats but the segment data didn't show it. The "overall" performance was pretty much spot on to my normal outcome. I guess what I'm trying to say is, it seemed to come down to the feel on the wheels under different parts of the ride. I'm going to continue these tests for the next two weeks while rotating three sets of wheels. Kind of interesting.


Doing the same ride twice is not even close to a scientific test. People post stuff like this all the time. Wind conditions change, stop lights, how good you're feeling, etc will all effect this. HR is not consistent as well either.


----------



## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> Doing the same ride twice is not even close to a scientific test. People post stuff like this all the time. Wind conditions change, stop lights, how good you're feeling, etc will all effect this. HR is not consistent as well either.


That's why I'm going to continue the tests.


----------



## skitorski (Dec 4, 2012)

ergott said:


> I think you guys need to quantify words terms like "a lot" and "real difference"
> 
> You are welcome to crunch the physics yourself if you like.
> Analytic Cycling, Interactive Methods for Estimating Cycling Performance Parameters. Tom Compton


The best thing I have seen posted on this forum, ever.


----------



## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

deviousalex said:


> Try riding a solo 28 MPH crit lap, it hurts a lot less with an aero wheel.


Then you are doing it wrong. It should hurt the same, you should just be going faster.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> So let's say 30 watts (box section to good quality aero wheel).


Sure, "let's say" 100 watts to really make it interesting.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Sure, "let's say" 100 watts to really make it interesting.


let's say 8 watts to make it accurate :idea:


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dcgriz said:


> let's say 8 watts to make it accurate :idea:


hey this is the internet you know. Accurate? (in case you didn't realize lack of accuracy saying 30 watts was pretty much my point)


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> hey this is the internet you know. Accurate? (in case you didn't realize lack of accuracy saying 30 watts was pretty much my point)


Oohh, I must have missed it. I kinda got dizzy reading this thread but it "felt" right


----------



## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Sure, "let's say" 100 watts to really make it interesting.


1.21 gigawatt would be even more interesting and would be more useful after reading this thread.


----------



## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Sure, "let's say" 100 watts to really make it interesting.


1.21 gigawatts would be even more interesting and would be more useful after reading this thread.


----------



## Hubs (Jun 15, 2013)

Willieboy , looking forward to seeing your future results . I went ahead and ordered my lighter wheelset . Will post back when I ride them this spring on the placebo effect . :thumbsup: Thanks guys for all the opinions on lighter wheels .


----------



## aa.mclaren (Jun 25, 2008)

The first consideration should always be whether a given wheelset is strong enough for a given rider, and there have been improvements in wheel component design that have enabled lighter wheels with less spokes to be constructed for relatively heavier riders up to a point.

But on the whole I think the greater benefit is from aerodynamic design (less spokes, deeper rim design) than light weight parts. I raced with the original Roval wheels in the early 90s and they were not all that light compared to what is now available, though definitely had an aero advantage compared to the conventional wheels of the day, as well as having much wider rims than most early aero wheels (I preferred them to my Mavic Cosmic (aluminium) Pro wheels). Admittedly, in a hill-climb TT or a crit with a lot of accelerations, the lighter rims helped a bit, but probably the greatest advantage of light rims is in track racing sprints, when it's often from a standstill.

Under-built wheels that go out of true are a greater disadvantage, than the slight increase in rotational mass of the deeper rim with less spokes, or the addition of more spokes with the lighter rim. And you can't always chose the road conditions (potholes) nor your position in the pack (whoops!) which makes lighter (sometimes more $$ than anything else on your bike) rims vulnerable to damage. If you can't afford to replace them in those circumstances, avoid riding them.


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

willieboy said:


> That's why I'm going to continue the tests.


I hate to be the one to tell you, but you don't have sensitive enough equipment to achieve any results that mean much. The margin of error you build up with the methods you are attempting are far greater than the performance differences between different wheels. We are talking about differences of 10-20w for aerodynamics. The performance differences of the weight loss is easy enough to calculate using the above calc I posted.


----------



## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

ergott said:


> I hate to be the one to tell you, but you don't have sensitive enough equipment to achieve any results that mean much. The margin of error you build up with the methods you are attempting are far greater than the performance differences between different wheels. We are talking about differences of 10-20w for aerodynamics. The performance differences of the weight loss is easy enough to calculate using the above calc I posted.


Appreciate your opinion as I'm the farthest person from scientific you will encounter however, I'm not calculating watts. I'm testing my real world differences in feel and performance between wheels. I fully understand the amount of variables involved concerning conditions and they will always be different.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

willieboy said:


> Appreciate your opinion as I'm the farthest person from scientific you will encounter however, I'm not calculating watts. I'm testing my real world differences in feel and performance between wheels. I fully understand the amount of variables involved concerning conditions and they will always be different.


So if you're not going to be measuring effort (which is really watts per kilogram) what metrics are you using?


----------



## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> So if you're not going to be measuring effort (which is really watts per kilogram) what metrics are you using?


I will use the metrics I have such as average speed, HR, cadence, elevation etc. the overall test is about feel. Is a lighter wheel always better when climbing or slower on the flats? Is an aero wheel always better at speed? If you buy into it the answer is yes and that may very well be the case. Each ride or route are different but with similar conditions I can make a judgement on performance differences but mostly feel. Duplicating routes using different wheels under similar conditions will be informative to me. Definitely not scientific but that's not what I'm after. In the end I may not learn anything but maybe I will


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

demonrider said:


> I don't think heavier wheels take longer to slow down, either.


Cool. But what does physics say? Oh, too bad. Physics says you're just plain wrong. The math is direct, inescapable, and incontrovertible. Heavier wheels are carrying more kinetic energy and therefore will take longer to dissipate that energy against whatever (consistent) retarding forces are happening. Your statement suggests that a heavier flywheel will slow down at the same speed as a lighter flywheel. Just plain wrong.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

willieboy said:


> I will use the metrics I have such as average speed, HR, cadence, elevation etc. the overall test is about feel. Is a lighter wheel always better when climbing or slower on the flats? Is an aero wheel always better at speed? If you buy into it the answer is yes and that may very well be the case. Each ride or route are different but with similar conditions I can make a judgement on performance differences but mostly feel. Duplicating routes using different wheels under similar conditions will be informative to me. Definitely not scientific but that's not what I'm after. In the end I may not learn anything but maybe I will


I think you have effectively confirmed that you are "the farthest person from scientific you will encounter." We already know that lighter wheels are faster on climbs (just as removing any other weight from you or your bike would be) and we know that aero wheels are faster. The point is whether you will be able to actually measure any of this with the "data" you are collecting. And we already know that the answer is "no."


----------



## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Kerry Irons said:


> I think you have effectively confirmed that you are "the farthest person from scientific you will encounter." We already know that lighter wheels are faster on climbs (just as removing any other weight from you or your bike would be) and we know that aero wheels are faster. The point is whether you will be able to actually measure any of this with the "data" you are collecting. And we already know that the answer is "no."


There's no doubt I don't have your knowledge and expertise but I'm having fun with it. Perhaps it's best that I continue my process while keeping the results to myself.


----------



## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

willieboy said:


> There's no doubt I don't have your knowledge and expertise but I'm having fun with it. Perhaps it's best that I continue my process while keeping the results to myself.



Light wheels for climbs. Shoe covers do about as much as aero wheels.


----------



## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

willieboy said:


> There's no doubt I don't have your knowledge and expertise but I'm having fun with it. Perhaps it's best that I continue my process while keeping the results to myself.


If you keep the results to yourself, you'll never know if you're actually right or wrong. Unless you have data to which you can compare yours, it's useless.


----------



## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

SauronHimself said:


> If you keep the results to yourself, you'll never know if you're actually right or wrong. Unless you have data to which you can compare yours, it's useless.


Respectfully disagree. It's about what I feel works for me. Hope that doesn't sound selfish. At 55 in a week, I'm not the fastest guy. But I'm very consistent with my training. I will determine what I'm after. At the end of the day it gives me something to focus on which motivates me.


----------



## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Hey Willie, if you are having fun with it then go for it. Isn't that what cycling is supposed to be about, having fun?


----------



## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

T K said:


> Hey Willie, if you are having fun with it then go for it. Isn't that what cycling is supposed to be about, having fun?


Amen. You are spot on. It's changed my life.


----------



## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

Kerry Irons said:


> Cool. But what does physics say? Oh, too bad. Physics says you're just plain wrong. The math is direct, inescapable, and incontrovertible. Heavier wheels are carrying more kinetic energy and therefore will take longer to dissipate that energy against whatever (consistent) retarding forces are happening. Your statement suggests that a heavier flywheel will slow down at the same speed as a lighter flywheel. Just plain wrong.


Sir, you conveniently disregarded the rest of my post where I mentioned rider weight and position on the bike.

I do not argue with physics here, you are 100% right about the flywheel effect. It will have a _noticeable_ effect on the performance of a wheel *by itself*. Say a kid in an impoverished country driving a wheel down the road with a stick... he will definitely feel the heavier rim taking longer to slow down.

But what happens when you add a 170lb rider+frame+drivetrain and other weight such as water bottles and end up with a total of 200+lb on top of the wheels. How much more inertia will the 100g heavier rims give in this case? 

Imperceptible amounts.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> They will spin up faster as there is less mass to move. The bike will "feel" more lively but that's short lived as it's a relative feeling. Once up to speed there will be no difference. When you let off the power they will slow faster than the heavier wheels. Accelerations are but a small part of any ride. You will have less weight to carry up hills. Club rides are rarely done at maximum speed. Those are the facts.
> 
> In the real world though if you did a whole year of rides on the heavier wheels (and kept times and average speeds) and then a whole year on the lighter wheels, kept the same data and did a comparison, assuming the same levels of fitness (and I have done all this) then you will see that there is no actual, measurable difference.
> 
> After all, how much faster would you expect to be with 1.25 waterbottles versus 2 full waterbottles? A full small waterbottle weighs 648g.



Agree with this, but wish to add upgrades are not usually strictly about weight. In spending extra dollars, the new wheels may have a superior build(wider flange, better hub, bearings, etc). I went from Rolf Prima Comp vector's to Mavic kyrysium Elites to Shimano Dura Ace c-24's, and more than the wheel weight changed. Each had different designs.


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> Agree with this, but wish to add upgrades are not usually strictly about weight. In spending extra dollars, the new wheels may have a superior build(wider flange, better hub, bearings, etc). I went from Rolf Prima Comp vector's to Mavic kyrysium Elites to Shimano Dura Ace c-24's, and more than the wheel weight changed. Each had different designs.


I know this and you know this but the OP's question was solely on the topic of "Lighter Wheels Myth". Now whether the other things you mentioned have any real world benefits or drawbacks is another topic.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

May I dare to suggest that would be best if folks rode the wheels that tickle their fancy more and make them ride longer and more often and stop trying to justify the purchase to performance benefits. 
Being out there riding your bike is what is all about so you are ahead of the curve no matter how you look at it!

I finished my ride this afternoon in the middle of another snowstorm. I'm sick and tired of this snow!!!!!! Give me some global warming, please!!!!!


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

dcgriz said:


> May I dare to suggest that would be best if folks rode the wheels that tickle their fancy more and make them ride longer and more often and stop trying to justify the purchase to performance benefits.
> Being out there riding your bike is what is all about so you are ahead of the curve no matter how you look at it!


Amen to that!


----------



## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

I second the notion of buying wheels you like and not worrying too much about performance upgrades. I bought carbon clinchers because I like the way deep rims look on a bike. Plus, I had a genuine opportunity to do so since my ROLs got destroyed by a drunk driver. I wasn't expecting any noticeable improvements in speed because I was realistic, but I did have other expectations from the substantially wider rims (19mm to 25mm) that were met. Other rational reasons to buy different wheels would include rim strength, hub quality and durability, and spoke strength and durability. Hence why we see a lot of people getting Pacenti SL23 or HED Belgium C2 rims with CX-Ray spokes and 
T11 hubs.


----------



## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

If you can, get 55 in the day of 55.
Science is one thing, feel is another.


----------



## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

I agree with the "use what makes you happy" crowd.

So many here will debate physics and math and tests and leave out the very thing most will boil down any "this bike vs that bike" conversation to.

The rider.

Like so many here say...no bike is faster than the next...it's the rider that is faster.

If I feel pro, I will strive to ride like one. The mental side to anything physical is quite possibly the most important element to it. People can "think" themselves into amazing things.

When someone says "I bought xx brand set of wheels and have been seeing 1-2mph gains on my rides..." So many of you are lightning fast to come on here, bash the holy hell out of the guy, bring up your fancy tests, discuss pointless watts/aero/whatever and completely ignore the human element.

The very thing you will then resort to with 100% certainty when it comes to the topic of "what makes a a bike fast".

Seriously...so many of you need to lighten up.

Whatever makes a cyclist feel faster/stronger will often have the effect of them actually being faster...even if there is no "math" to back it up...there is no math for the human element fellas.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

demonrider said:


> Sir, you conveniently disregarded the rest of my post where I mentioned rider weight and position on the bike.


I didn't conveniently ignore anything. You made the straight up statement that "I don't think heavier wheels take longer to slow down." 

I have some old calculations that aren't quite what is being asked but the advantage of light wheels (rim and tire weight reduction) vs. saving the same weight elsewhere says about 0.4% per hour for repeated accelerations and braking. That would be 10 watts if you are putting out 250 watts.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Typetwelve said:


> When someone says "I bought xx brand set of wheels and have been seeing 1-2mph gains on my rides..." So many of you are lightning fast to come on here, bash the holy hell out of the guy, bring up your fancy tests, discuss pointless watts/aero/whatever and completely ignore the human element.


We get it. You don't like objective data. But what happens here is NOT "I got new wheels and they make me so enthusiastic to ride that I'm going 1-2 mph faster." What happens here is a clear implication that "my new wheels reduced drag so much that I'm going 1-2 mph faster." It is this kind of misinformation pervades cycling, and "pointless watts/aero/whatever" is the language of physics that actually describes what is happening. Letting people waste money on new wheels because they accept the speed claims doesn't seem a charitable thing to do to fellow riders.


----------



## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

Kerry Irons said:


> We get it. You don't like objective data. But what happens here is NOT "I got new wheels and they make me so enthusiastic to ride that I'm going 1-2 mph faster." What happens here is a clear implication that "my new wheels reduced drag so much that I'm going 1-2 mph faster." It is this kind of misinformation pervades cycling, and "pointless watts/aero/whatever" is the language of physics that actually describes what is happening. Letting people waste money on new wheels because they accept the speed claims doesn't seem a charitable thing to do to fellow riders.


I get that too…thinking there is some sort of snake oil out there that will make you something your not is a problem with many…

But it isn't that way with everybody...


----------



## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

I will admit that I am somewhat of a weight weenie. I have tried to get my bikes as light as reasonably possible. But in the end, I have come to the exact same conclusions as most here...a lighter bike just feels more nimble and more responsive, especially when getting out of the saddle to strongly finish off a climb. But in the big scheme of things, I definitely do not notice any true perceptible performance differences between my two bikes. In fact, some of my best times on longer climbs have been on my heavier rig. About a pound difference between the two bikes.


----------



## Social Climber (Jan 16, 2013)

I replaced my stock wheels with wider rimmed wheels (HED Ardennes). They are lighter than the old wheels and I do feel, subjectively, that I climb better with them. But I did not buy them expecting any noticeable performance upgrade. The real difference, though, is in comfort. They are just a lot more comfortable to ride on. Plus I feel more confident in sharp turns and downhills. So I do think it was money well spent.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

demonrider said:


> Even 200-300g makes a real difference.


What is a "real" difference. Can you quantify that in mph, watts, time, or some other useful measurement?



> I don't buy the whole "once up to speed" argument at all; Once up to speed, then you have to slow down again because of traffic, a stop sign, a red light or a dozen other things. How many times are you going to be spinning up?


I'm going to be spinning up 15 times. How much faster will I be with 500g lighter wheels?



> I don't think heavier wheels take longer to slow down, either. Wheels slowing down depends on rider position on the bike (wind resistance) and rider+bike weight.


Where the rider is, his weight, and wind resistance is irrelevant. If comparing two wheels, using the same position, same rider, and same wind, the heavier wheel will take longer to slow down. Every single time. You can't avoid physics.


----------



## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

tlg said:


> What is a "real" difference. Can you quantify that in mph, watts, time, or some other useful measurement?


A real difference is what matters to the rider, every individual. To me spinning up right away, better cornering, a great ride and good looks matter far more than numbers on spreadsheets. 



> I'm going to be spinning up 15 times. How much faster will I be with 500g lighter wheels?


A little faster, and much happier, every single one of those "15 times". Of course, you're welcome to keep plodding along with a pair of boat anchors, while sporting a grin.




> Where the rider is, his weight, and wind resistance is irrelevant. If comparing two wheels, using the same position, same rider, and same wind, the heavier wheel will take longer to slow down. Every single time. You can't avoid physics.


No, sorry, that is just plain wrong. Wind resistance and the rider's inertia is more than enough to negate the effect of wheels that are only a few hundred grams heavier. 

Besides, you haven't given me numbers, either. If you had, I would feel obligated to counter your claims with more numbers, but all I see is just plain finger pointing saying "yer wrong!".


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tlg said:


> You can't avoid physics.


But you can ignore it.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

demonrider said:


> A real difference is what matters to the rider, every individual. To me spinning up right away, better cornering, a great ride and good looks matter far more than numbers on spreadsheets.


No, that is a perceived difference. You obviously don't understand the difference between real and perceived. 




> Besides, you haven't given me numbers, either. If you had, I would feel obligated to counter your claims with more numbers, but all I see is just plain finger pointing saying "yer wrong!".


In other words you have no clue what you're talking about. YOU made the assertion with YOUR claims. Therefore the burden of proof is on you... not me.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

demonrider said:


> No, sorry, that is just plain wrong. Wind resistance and the rider's inertia is more than enough to negate the effect of wheels that are only a few hundred grams heavier.


That big woosh you just heard over your head wasn't jet it was his point.

By the way why do riders have intertia but wheels don't (according to you that is)?


----------



## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> By the way why do riders have intertia but wheels don't (according to you that is)?


I just don't think a 2kg wheelset, when part of a 80+kg system, will have a real effect on the system (rider+bike) as a whole. 

Individual wheels that are heavier, WILL FOR CERTAIN roll longer, but when you attach them to a bike, I don't think their weight, relative to the weight of the rider, will impact how long the wheels "roll" when just coasting. 

The other forces involved are too disproportionally large in comparison to the little inertia some 500g extra will give.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

demonrider said:


> *I just don't think a 2kg wheelset, when part of a 80+kg system, will have a real effect on the system (rider+bike) as a whole.*
> 
> Individual wheels that are heavier, WILL FOR CERTAIN roll longer, but when you attach them to a bike, I don't think their weight, relative to the weight of the rider, will impact how long the wheels "roll" when just coasting.
> 
> The other forces involved are too disproportionally large in comparison to the little inertia some 500g extra will give.


yet that's exactly what you have been claiming all along except with an even smaller relative difference.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

demonrider said:


> I just don't think a 2kg wheelset, when part of a 80+kg system, will have a real effect on the system (rider+bike) as a whole.
> 
> Individual wheels that are heavier, WILL FOR CERTAIN roll longer, but when you attach them to a bike, I don't think their weight, relative to the weight of the rider, will impact how long the wheels "roll" when just coasting.


Let me get this straight... you "think" lighter wheels give you a "real" difference spinning up "relative to the weight of the rider"... but "think" heavier wheels don't give you a "real" difference slowing down "relative to the weight of the rider"?


----------



## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

tlg said:


> Let me get this straight... you "think" lighter wheels give you a "real" difference spinning up "relative to the weight of the rider"... but "think" heavier wheels don't give you a "real" difference slowing down "relative to the weight of the rider"?


We get back to perception. When I use my lighter wheels, I can unmistakably perceive a real kick to my acceleration and handling. But when I put the heavier wheels on, I cannot perceive, even a little bit, the fact that they increase my coasting distance. I do however, feel their sluggishness when getting up to speed and the fact that they are a biatch to maintain decent speeds on. (anything over 30kph, probably due to drag)

Turning those perceptions into quantifiable physics claims is well beyond my resources and abilities, but posting my opinion here is not. I aired my opinion, you claimed it was wrong, without anything more real than my own post about perception. No burdens of proof here, just a discussion.

I can only talk about what is real to me as a rider, minute forces that cannot be felt are not my concern as I am not a physicist researcher.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

demonrider said:


> We get back to perception.


Exactly. You can't use "real" and "perceive" in the same sentence. Well.. obviously you do... but it's wrong.



> When I use my lighter wheels, I can unmistakably perceive a real kick to my acceleration and handling.


So how much faster does that "real" kick make you over 1, 5, 10, 15 mi? 



> Turning those perceptions into quantifiable physics claims is well beyond my resources and abilities, but posting my opinion here is not. I aired my opinion, you claimed it was wrong, without anything more real than my own post about perception. No burdens of proof here, just a discussion.


Except that your OP said "Even 200-300g makes a real difference." That sure sounds like a claim of fact, not opinion. Only now do you backpedal and admit that it's what you perceive. Yet we have no clue how much that "kick" is benefiting you. Well actually... many of us know that you're not any faster.


----------



## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

tlg said:


> Exactly. You can't use "real" and "perceive" in the same sentence. Well.. obviously you do... but it's wrong.
> 
> So how much faster does that "real" kick make you over 1, 5, 10, 15 mi?
> 
> Except that your OP said "Even 200-300g makes a real difference." That sure sounds like a claim of fact, not opinion. Only now do you backpedal and admit that it's what you perceive. Yet we have no clue how much that "kick" is benefiting you. Well actually... many of us know that you're not any faster.


Yeah I agree, I should have made my OP clearer, rather than mixing the wording up.

Still, you haven't proven me any more wrong than I perceived myself right. In the end, you too are simply throwing around your perception of what you think matters.


----------



## apapage (Sep 12, 2012)

Seems like everyone has the concepts mostly correct, but the degree of the change doesn't seem to be answered. Hopefully this helps.

The equation for Inertia is I=mr^2, where m = mass, r = radius of the wheel. F=ma, where a = acceleration. So I = (F/a)r^2). Also, a = (F/I)r^2 and F=Iar^2. 

These tell us that you need more force to accelerate a wheel with a higher inertia, which everyone understands. More importantly, these variable (F, I, m, a) are proportional to each other. So, a 5% difference in mass (e.g., a 20g g reduction off a 400g rim) should result in a 5% increase in acceleration at common force or a decrease in the force necessary to achieve a common acceleration (note these ignore friction, drag, etc., so in reality expect less). Note, a 500g decrease in the weight of a wheelset is mostly in the hubs which have a minimal difference in inertia. 

The improvement attributed to the inertia is only during acceleration (and deceleration). So, a 5% difference in the mass of a rim is noticeable, but it is most beneficial in racing. Regular rides, probably not so much unless there is a lot of stop and go type traffic. I rode the NYC century last year and literally 80 miles of it was stop signs and red lights every tenth of a mile. I suspect that lighter wheels would have made a difference on fatigue. 

Not all benefits can be measured in terms of time and acceleration though. Different wheels/materials/designs perform differently in cornering, downhill, etc. So how can I test a custom set of wheels before I buy?


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

apapage said:


> Seems like everyone has the concepts mostly correct, but the degree of the change doesn't seem to be answered. Hopefully this helps.
> 
> The equation for Inertia is I=mr^2, where m = mass, r = radius of the wheel. F=ma, where a = acceleration. So I = (F/a)r^2). Also, a = (F/I)r^2 and F=Iar^2.
> 
> ...


So it is your contention that a 5% difference in the mass of a rim (roughly 20 gm) is noticeable compared to the total mass of a bike and rider. By my crude math that 20 gm is something like 0.026% of the mass of a 150 lb rider and bike. Because that mass is rotating as well as moving down the road, accelerating it takes 2X the energy of accelerating 20 gm elsewhere on the bike, so now we are up to 0.05% more energy to accelerate 20 additional gm. 

Do you want to explain your claim that "a 5% difference in the mass of a rim is noticeable."? In the context of this discussion I presume that by "noticeable" you somehow mean "significant to performance."


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

apapage said:


> Seems like everyone has the concepts mostly correct, but the degree of the change doesn't seem to be answered. Hopefully this helps.
> 
> The equation for Inertia is I=mr^2, where m = mass, r = radius of the wheel. F=ma, where a = acceleration. So I = (F/a)r^2). Also, a = (F/I)r^2 and F=Iar^2.
> 
> ...


You already answered part of my question.


Going off your highlighted point:
If a rider were to do a century and have the luxury like a stage in a TDF where the entire 100 miles is uninterrupted (No stop and go), would said rider still benefit even if the wheelset were a little heavier than a true lightweight wheelset but not as heavy as a commuter wheelset? Or is there little noticeable difference between using a heavy commuter wheelset vs a semi-heavy wheelset on said century?


I would like to eventually do double centuries some day and maybe even attempt the Furnace Creek 508. And being that I can't afford spare wheelsets I need to build a wheelset that's durable (Pothole-proof) yet be as light as possible. 

In a perfect world I would have a support vehicle with 6 super light front spare wheelsets and 6 super light rear wheelsets.


----------



## apapage (Sep 12, 2012)

I tried to answer the question of whether or not a lighter wheel makes a difference in performance. The answer is tied to inertia, not the weight of the rider and the gear. The gravitational forces acting on the rider are a different concept as is friction and drag. Each contribution must be considered separately. I think what you are trying to say is that the other have a bigger impact on performance, which is true. 

Minimizing drag from my understanding results in the best performance improvement. Consider drafting can decrease force on the rider by 25%. Weight of the rider and gear would probably be second. For example, consider the performance by adding 100 pounds of gear on a ride. When we are talking 1 to 2 pounds, the performance gain may not be very significant. Lastly, there is the forces on the wheels. Heavy wheels (+500 grams), for example) add to the gravitational forces against the rider while climbing and also the inertia necessary to get them spinning. In the first instance, the entire weight of the wheel is considered (500g), as well as the weight of the rider and gear, whereas in the later the weight of the rim is important (20g) not the weight of the rider and gear. 

Noticeable doesn't mean significant performance. Rather, that it can be felt by the rider. For example, I ride between 4 bikes (carbon road, aluminum road, mountain, and folding bike. The carbon uses 23c tires on somewhat aero rims whereas the aluminum uses 25c on shallow mavic rims. I can feel the difference accelerating between the two in that I can get the carbon to spin just a little more quickly. The mountain bike wheels in comparison are outwardly heavy and take more effort to spin (although they are 26 inch which reduces the inertia as compared to 700c). Finally, the folding bike has 20 inch wheels are the heaviest, which are the most difficult to get spinning. Note, these differences are all quite small, but I can feel them nonetheless. For me, that performance difference is insignificant simply because of my riding style. In theory, a racer that accelerates often may be able to shave a few seconds off a long race, which is significant.

Going back to the weight overall, the folding bike weighs 30 +pounds and I can feel the difference over every hill in comparison to the lights bike at 17 pounds. Not surprisingly, I am quickest on the lightest bike on hill climbing. The time difference is probably a few seconds, but a measurable difference in comparison to inertia. Finally, drag. As you would expect, the road bikes are much more aero and thus much quicker at higher speeds.


----------



## apapage (Sep 12, 2012)

In theory, there should be no difference in the impact of inertia. The overall weight of the wheels may make hill climbing just a little more difficult, but I read somewhere that a couple of pounds only makes a few minutes difference over a long distance ride like a century. I rode a couple of centuries, one on my road bike and another on my mountain bike. The difference between the two was probably around 30-40 minutes. When I was riding the mountain bike, I passed a number of road bikes that were having trouble with their wheels because of the pot holes. My preference is on reliable medium weight wheels (about 1800-1900). For example, I ride xtr on my mountain bike and 105 on my road bike. My commuter wheels are anchors.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

apapage said:


> I tried to answer the question of whether or not a lighter wheel makes a difference in performance. The answer is tied to inertia, not the weight of the rider and the gear. The gravitational forces acting on the rider are a different concept as is friction and drag. Each contribution must be considered separately. I think what you are trying to say is that the other have a bigger impact on performance, which is true.
> 
> Minimizing drag from my understanding results in the best performance improvement. Consider drafting can decrease force on the rider by 25%. Weight of the rider and gear would probably be second. For example, consider the performance by adding 100 pounds of gear on a ride. When we are talking 1 to 2 pounds, the performance gain may not be very significant. Lastly, there is the forces on the wheels. Heavy wheels (+500 grams), for example) add to the gravitational forces against the rider while climbing and also the inertia necessary to get them spinning. In the first instance, the entire weight of the wheel is considered (500g), as well as the weight of the rider and gear, whereas in the later the weight of the rim is important (20g) not the weight of the rider and gear.
> 
> ...


Reading this I feel like looking at the leaf of one tree but missing the forest surrounding it.

Referring to the example of the heavier wheel by 20 gram, I find the claim that the effect of the 20 grams added weight can be felt by the rider incorrect. We have talked about the formulas and the percentages before so I will not repeat them again other than saying that the effects of the added weight are:
a.) present but are so small to be effectively eclipsed by the gravitational and drag forces acting upon the rest of the system as a whole, and
b.) small enough to be disguised within the day to day variations one experiences riding a bicycle in the open.

I find your experience with your 4 different bicycles quite common but irrelevant to the discussion topic because the induced "feelings" are greatly influenced by the plethora of the variables involved between riding different bikes, of different construction, of different geometry, of different riding posture, etc, etc.
A more precise "experiment", if you wish, would have been riding the exact same bike and alternating between a 460 gram and a 480 gram wheel, all else being equal. We know the answer to that...


----------



## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

So much science, some many opinions. I wish garmin devices were around back in, say, the early 1990's. Then we could compare riding steel bikes with standard wheels to the carbon machines/deep section wheels of today. My guess is that there would be little difference in gained speed, even despite the huge improvement in training methods. While certainly not a compelling scientific observation, its interesting to note the average speed at the Tour de France has remained virtually unchanged in the last 30 years. The 2 small blips in average speed gain were between 1986-1988, probably because of Greg Lemond's influence in greatly improving the pay structure of the riders (making Tour stage wins more lucrative to the riders) and 1992 when EPO was in full throttle. From 1992-present, despite going from heavy steel to carbon, no speed difference.


----------



## apapage (Sep 12, 2012)

The forest is made up of many leaves, some bigger than others. The question presented was whether this one small leaf makes a difference in this vast forest. A small leaf will hardly be noticed which we all agree. If you want to thin out the leaves in the forest it makes sense to start with the biggest (drag) followed by the smaller (overall weight). When all those are gone the small leaves will be left behind (inertia, friction, etc.). For most of us, a few small leaves left behind will not make a difference. 

I agree, the examples between the different bikes aren't the perfect experiment because of all of these other factors that come into play as you point out. A better example is recently changing the tires on my mountain bike which added about 100g to the weight of each wheel. I estimate that this is about 10% increase directly on the rim over the previous rim/tire combo. Everything else remained the same. The difference was unmistakable. Maybe a 5% difference is so small that it won't be perceived, but then again I read the reviews comparing wheels in the way they spin that say otherwise. Maybe the pros are more sensitive that the average rider. Does the 10% increase make a difference in the performance? Yes. Does it matter? Not to me. 

Personally, I wouldn't replace a medium weight set of wheels with a light weight (maybe saving 100-200g) in the process because most of the savings are going to be in the hubs. But I would and have replaced a heavy weight with a light weight set, but only because there was a significant difference in the weight of the new rims over the ones that came with the bike (over 100g each). Specifically, I replaced the original wheels on my MTB with xtr mavic 512 combo. I have a backup set of wheels with a lower model shimano hub but the same 512 rims. Because the weight of the rims and tires are identical, the inertia of the wheel is essentially the same so the feel during acceleration is almost identical. They are heavier though, which can be felt when climbing and carrying the bike. In a race I would prefer the xtr wheels. All other times the lower model works just as well.

My road bikes, however, have medium weight wheels. I have no desire to replace 105 wheels on the aluminum bike with ultegra for obvious reasons. I have been itchy lately to try a light weight combo on my Tarmac that has Alex 2.0 wheels. I think they weigh in at 2000g or so, but most of the weight savings is going to be in the hub. Thinking mavic open pro with novatec hubs and db spokes 28f and 32r laced x3. Ultimately, I don't think that the performance difference will be all that great.

But, i just found the following opinion on the alex wheels:

"I purchased a 2012 Specialized Roubaix Comp, which came with the DT Axis 3.0 Wheelset. I am an experienced rider, having raced competitively for several years. I purchased the Roubaix for winter riding and commuting to work. Regrettably, I did not research the Axis wheels before purchasing the bike, but they looked bullet proof, which was what I was looking for. After one ride I decided to toss them. They take forever to wind up and have a terrible, dead and heavy road feel. In short, they are junk. Specialized should be embarrassed to put them on the bike. I swapped the wheels out for a pair of Mavic Ksyrium Elite (lighter yet still durable) with Michelin Lithion.2 23mm tires. I took the bike out for a ride today, and honestly it feels like a completely different bike. The most notable difference is descending. Just a more stable and smoother road feel."

The Mavics weigh about 1600g.


----------



## PTJ (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm assuming everyone arguing the point that wheel weight is mostly irrelevant is riding a 20lb+ bike with dependable 32 spoke box rims to race or just throw down on there local Tuesday night pissing match. 

If the answer in your case is no then could I get some reasons why you are riding a sub 18lb rig with sub 2000 gram wheels?


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Plenty of people out there killing the local scenes on said 20+lb bike. I know a few of them. I don't race anymore, but I do dish it out on a bike with fenders and lights all the time. 20lb+? I'm sure well over 20lbs. I don't bother weighing it.

I also have a sub 15lb screamer of a bike with 950g wheels. I absolutely love that bike, carbon, titanium, Super Record, you name it. I've ridden on the best equipment out there. That doesn't mean I think I need it to win a race. It's ALL about the engine for 98% of us who race/ride.

The equipment gains matter most at the level when you get sponsored, not the local Cat 3. Besides, what are you actually winning if you do? Doesn't make sense to buy $10k bike to win $200. You have to be real with yourself. Just enjoy the fancy stuff while you are healthy enough to use it.


----------



## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ergott said:


> Just enjoy the fancy stuff while you are healthy enough to use it.


Amen to that, brother.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

PTJ said:


> If the answer in your case is no then could I get some reasons why you are riding a sub 18lb rig with sub 2000 gram wheels?


Because it fits and I enjoy riding it. Sorry, but justifying it to a stranger on the internet in relation to a debate over wheel weight wasn't much of a consideration when I bought it.


----------



## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Think about this topic for recreation riders...
I spent a few days last summer riding on the Cape Cod bike trail. In certain sections there are quite a few road crossings, requiring riders to stop or almost stop, then accelerate back to speed. 

The argument that energy put into accelerating rims and tires is recovered only holds if one coasts to a stop without braking. Otherwise, energy put into accelerating heavier rims and tires from a stop is completely lost with hard braking to a stop, and NOT recovered. This would also apply to commuters or anyone riding in the city with frequent lights. 

This probably is not that big a deal with a 20 g weight delta, but 100 to 150 g delta for rims (per wheel) + another 200-300 g delta for tires and tubes (per wheel) is definitely going to be felt with repeated stops and starts. 

Talking about Mavic Open Pro rims at 435 g or BWW Pure Race rims at 430 g vs. DT RR585 g rims here. Not hubs or spokes. Only things that effect the moment of inertia (I) at the end of the spokes. That is where the angular acceleration is felt. 

I have a mountain bike with 26 x 2.00 Serfas drifter tires, and I can certainly feel the difference between this and tubular tires. This may be 2 extremes, but it's not entirely absurd. 

For the same pedal force, the lighter wheels will accelerate faster, or alternately, require less pedal force to accelerate at the same rate as heavy wheels. And if you brake to stop, the energy put into heavier rims and tires will not be recovered.


----------

