# SRAM will have a tough time spinning this into something good.



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

_Garmin-Cervélo riders will be shifting and braking on Japanese parts for the 2012 season instead of the SRAM they rode this season. Shimano, however, is not a new sponsor. Cervélo, the bike manufacturer, is purchasing Shimano groups for the team after repeated requests for Shimano from team members.

The Garmin team used Shimano components until the 2011 season, when it merged with the former Cervélo TestTeam.

Home training bikes for team members are being built with cable-pull Dura-Ace but the team plans to race on the electric-shift Di2 on both road and time trial bikes.

Other equipment sponsors remain the same, with Mavic providing wheels and tires and Rotor providing cranks. The team will also use Garmin’s new Vector power-measuring pedals.
_

Garmin-Cervélo switches to Shimano


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## Aindreas (Sep 1, 2010)

SRAM could always say that Garmin-Cervelo was having a tough time meeting the minimum weight requirement, and needed the extra grams from Shimano.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

What don't they like about SRAM?


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## Aindreas (Sep 1, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Not much different from when Leopard/Trek went with Shimano.
> 
> I don't think it's going to even phase them much.


Agreed. SRAM's market share keeps growing, and pretty quickly too IIRC. And for good reason IMHO. Not that Shimano isn't (really) good, but SRAM makes killer components, too.

Maybe Shimano gave the team a better deal?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Not much different from when Leopard/Trek went with Shimano.

I don't think it's going to even phase them much.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Dunno. Perhaps Shimano isn't a named team sponsor, but on the other hand, Shimano's well known for playing with a strong hand in the OEM market. 

Easy to see them saying to Cervelo "Convince the team to ride Shimano, and we'll improve your unit pricing for built bikes by $xx a set."

I have both, and while I currently do happen to prefer SRAM, they both do a a fine job. Just my opinion, but I can't see the riders banging down the door for the difference. I'm even less sold on the (current-production) manner of Di2 - though it's very possible they have stuff we don't, and the difference between mutts and best in show is very small, when you get down to it. 

Most rider interviews I've seen on the topic say on the lines of 'I ride what they put on the bike.'


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

LMAO! I guess riders always don't ride that they are told to ride! Constantly here this here. Well, the riders demanded Shimano over SRAM and got it! BUT, BUT i bet its strictly about Di2 and NOT mech DA.

This will hurt SRAM sales a little. I have said over and over, I don't believe in their road products yet. MTB, hell yeah!


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> LMAO! I guess riders always don't ride that they are told to ride! Constantly here this here. Well, the riders demanded Shimano over SRAM and got it! BUT, BUT i bet its strictly about Di2 and NOT mech DA.
> 
> This will hurt SRAM sales a little. I have said over and over, I don't believe in their road products yet. MTB, hell yeah!


Di2 for their race bikes, mechanical DA for their practice bikes. Garmin is still using Rotor cranks so that would preclude a Shimano sponsorship deal (just as Campy doesn't allow breaking up groups for sponsorship either).


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> LMAO! I guess riders always don't ride that they are told to ride! Constantly here this here. Well, the riders demanded Shimano over SRAM and got it! BUT, BUT i bet its strictly about Di2 and NOT mech DA.
> 
> This will hurt SRAM sales a little.* I have said over and over, I don't believe in their road products yet*. MTB, hell yeah!


Then you're about 4 years behind the times.

I'm guessing you don't believe in electronic shifting either (unless it's Campy, of course.)


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Dura ace rules!


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

It's for the Di2. Obviously races are still won on cable-actuated systems but I think the pro ranks will be exclusively electronic as soon as SRAM has a prototype system going...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Mr. Scary said:


> Di2 for their race bikes, mechanical DA for their practice bikes. Garmin is still using Rotor cranks so that would preclude a Shimano sponsorship deal (just as Campy doesn't allow breaking up groups for sponsorship either).


Correct. But I am sure its more about race days and Di2.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> Then you're about 4 years behind the times.
> 
> I'm guessing you don't believe in electronic shifting either (unless it's Campy, of course.)


What are you talking about? SRAM road bike stuff? yeah, I don't like it and it basically sucks! Don't get me started on the truvativ cranks.

Electronic shifting is the future and Shimano started it. Di2 is nice, but I don't car for the Shimano hood shapes and think the new cranks are ugly. Now Shimano v Campy for electronic, it more about aesthetics, but like what I see form Campy.

It's the future folks.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> I'm guessing you don't believe in electronic shifting either (unless it's Campy, of course.)


You got me too. 

Seems to me that SRAM is mostly about financial growth and less about the dependability of their products. Almost the inverse of Campagnolo.

That "Batteries not necessary"-campaign smells like OH ****! too.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> What are you talking about? SRAM road bike stuff? yeah, I don't like it and it basically sucks! Don't get me started on the truvativ cranks.
> 
> Electronic shifting is the future and Shimano started it. Di2 is nice, but I don't car for the Shimano hood shapes and think the new cranks are ugly. Now Shimano v Campy for electronic, it more about aesthetics, but like what I see form Campy.
> 
> *It's the future folks.*


It's not the future because it will never be cheap enough to be OEM on the largest group of bikes sold: the ones under $1000.

I'd think a brilliant industry insider like you could figure it out, but apparently that's beyond your brainpower.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

kbwh said:


> You got me too.
> 
> Seems to me that SRAM is mostly about financial growth and less about the dependability of their products. Almost the inverse of Campagnolo.
> 
> That "Batteries not necessary"-campaign smells like OH ****! too.


 SRAM will have a electronic group out by the end of 2012, watch.
Maybe even 12speed.

I miss the days, when I had an insider at SRAM.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> It's not the future because it will never be cheap enough to be OEM on the largest group of bikes sold: the ones under $1000.
> 
> I'd think a brilliant industry insider like you could figure it out, but apparently that's beyond your brainpower.


How do you know? God, your an idiot! You really think that? LMAO! Give it a few years when the technology is paid for. Its wires, a few switches and batteries. Like everything else, it will trickle down. Just to be the future, it does NOT have to be on OEM bike that are sub $1000.

It will be cheap enough for most bikes that are used for recreational cycling enthusiasts are racers. Don't be surprised in 2-3 years, you can get a 105 Level Electric group on able at your LBS for $100-200 more than a mech version. Say sub $1500.

Same reason why lots of OEM bikes over under $1000 don't use the same technological advancements as higher end bikes. Yet, those use items that are now the FUTURE and industry standard, your moron.
They said the same thing about the combustible engine over horse drawn power.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> How do you know? God, your an idiot! You really think that? LMAO! Give it a few years when the technology is paid for. Its wires, a few switches and batteries. Like everything else, it will trickle down. Just to be the future, it does NOT have to be on OEM bike that are sub $1000.
> 
> It will be cheap enough for most bikes that are used for recreational cycling enthusiasts are racers. Don't be surprised in 2-3 years, you can get a 105 Level Electric group on able at your LBS for $100-200 more than a mech version. Say sub $1500.
> 
> ...


Sub $1500 won't put it on a bike that costs $1000-$1500, which is by far the largest price point of bikes sold in the LBS. 

The FUTURE does not mean cutting edge technological advancement, it means the industry standard. Electronic shifting will NEVER be the industry standard, much like your precious Campy will never be industry standard because of price alone.

If you're having a hard time understanding, that's ok. We'll help you.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

If one pro team switching to Shimano were really such a PR disaster, what shape would Campy be in? Which teams use Campy in the pro peloton? I can only think of EuropCar's Campy-equipped Colnagos off the top of my head.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

For 2012 add
Movistar (but of course...)
Omega Pharma-Quick Step
Lampre


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> What are you talking about? *SRAM road bike stuff? yeah, I don't like it and it basically sucks! Don't get me started on the truvativ cranks.*
> 
> Electronic shifting is the future and Shimano started it. Di2 is nice, but I don't car for the Shimano hood shapes and think the new cranks are ugly. Now Shimano v Campy for electronic, it more about aesthetics, but like what I see form Campy.
> 
> It's the future folks.


Spill it! Long time user of Shimano DA7800 and switch over to SRAM a year or so ago and really enjoy the stuff for a variety of reasons. I enjoyed Shimano for a variety of reasons as well. Neither of the groups suck but, I'm always interested when guys make dramatic and nebulous statements such as "it basically sucks!"


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

DIRT BOY said:


> What are you talking about? SRAM road bike stuff? yeah, I don't like it and it basically sucks! Don't get me started on the truvativ cranks.
> 
> *Electronic shifting is the future and Shimano started it.* Di2 is nice, but I don't car for the Shimano hood shapes and think the new cranks are ugly. Now Shimano v Campy for electronic, it more about aesthetics, but like what I see form Campy.
> 
> It's the future folks.


False.
Mavic had electronic shifting long before Shimano. Campy started developing their electronic shifting before Shimano.

Shimano is credited with much more than they deserve. Shimano released their electronic shifting before Campy, but they didn't "start it".


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

qatarbhoy said:


> If one pro team switching to Shimano were really such a PR disaster, what shape would Campy be in? Which teams use Campy in the pro peloton? I can only think of EuropCar's Campy-equipped Colnagos off the top of my head.


Movistar and OP/Quickstep also use campy, I believe.

It doesn't matter what the pro teams use; it's all a circus that changes every year or two, based upon which sponsors come and go.

Some of the teams can't even be "sponsored" because they already have other equipment sponsors, but they may receive discounted or free parts.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> False.
> Mavic had electronic shifting long before Shimano. Campy started developing their electronic shifting before Shimano.
> 
> Shimano is credited with much more than they deserve. Shimano released their electronic shifting before Campy, but they didn't "start it".


Correct, I mean started the new future of electronic shifting, without failing like Mavic did.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

woodys737 said:


> Spill it! Long time user of Shimano DA7800 and switch over to SRAM a year or so ago and really enjoy the stuff for a variety of reasons. I enjoyed Shimano for a variety of reasons as well. Neither of the groups suck but, I'm always interested when guys make suck dramatic and nebulous statements suck as "it basically sucks!"


There cranks and BB suck, period. I mean their shifting style sucks for me personally. But overall, I don't feel that the SRAM overall quality is there yet. It will get there. As I feel their MTB shifters are superior to Shimano on the dirt.
But I do feel, Shimano cassettes and chainrings are the smoothest.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Meh, Pro teams pick their sponsors based on (a) cash, (b) cash, (c) cash and (d) free product. 

Now that you can get a Campy SRM, there really is no real difference- minor hood shape differences, minor weight differences. It all works now. Any of the elite groups will get you a sub UCI weight limit bike _very_ easily. Campy splines may limit what wheels you can use, but even that probably isn't an issue at the ProTour level. 

I like the SRAM stuff when I am paying, but if Shimano or Campy wanted to sponsor my racing I would gleefully take it.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> Meh, *Pro teams pick their sponsors based on (a) cash, (b) cash, (c) cash and (d) free product. *
> 
> Now that you can get a Campy SRM, there really is no real difference- minor hood shape differences, minor weight differences. It all works now. Any of the elite groups will get you a sub UCI weight limit bike _very_ easily. Campy splines may limit what wheels you can use, but even that probably isn't an issue at the ProTour level.
> 
> I like the SRAM stuff when I am paying, but if Shimano or Campy wanted to sponsor my racing I would gleefully take it.


For this reason I don't understand why people are constantly arguing/discussing/fighting over what group is better because "XXX pro team uses them." They're paid to ride what they ride.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

DIRT BOY said:


> As I feel their MTB shifters are superior to Shimano on the dirt.


I'm a SRAM fan through and through, but even I can say that Shimano Dyna-Sys quality kicks the **** out of SRAM's 10sp stuff.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

-dustin said:


> I'm a SRAM fan through and through, but even I can say that Shimano Dyna-Sys quality kicks the **** out of SRAM's 10sp stuff.


Ok. I have not been on the MTB for 5 years and hated Shimano STI for the dirt and pre STI RF shifters. But I am a SRAM twist guy! :thumbsup:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> For this reason I don't understand why people are constantly arguing/discussing/fighting over what group is better because "XXX pro team uses them." They're paid to ride what they ride.


Again, did you READ the article? Some teams/riders will buy and use what THEY prefer in situations. 

Its not about free stuff or what they are paid to ride 100% of the time. But in general, they will ride what they are paid or given to ride.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Again, did you READ the article? Some teams/riders will buy and use what THEY prefer in situations.
> 
> Its not about free stuff or what they are paid to ride 100% of the time. But in general, they will ride what they are paid or given to ride.


So Cadel Evans is going to buy and campy on his Team Machine even though Shimano sponsors BMC? Not happening. Wheels are a tricky thing nowadays and plenty of rebadging goes on, but you're never going to see groupsets from SRAM/Campy on a Shimano sponsored team. If there's no proper component sponsor, then by all means, go buy whatever the hell you like.

But you just like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I don't expect you to understand this concept, so I'll spell it out. Garmin is not sponsored. They are buying parts. 

And to quote the article to clarify it for your simple mind:


> Shimano, however, is not a new sponsor.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

-dustin said:


> Oh. Yes. Gripshift kicks all sorts of ass. And it's coming back, 10sp stylee.


I heard. But no need for it in flat Florida. 9 speed is more than enough for me. I use a spd 11-27 DA Cassette


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh. Yes. Gripshift kicks all sorts of ass. And it's coming back, 10sp stylee.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Just a reminder, stay on point- we don't need a redo of the homebrew lube thread disaster.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

OnTheRivet said:


> _Garmin-Cervélo riders will be shifting and braking on Japanese parts for the 2012 season instead of the SRAM they rode this season. Shimano, however, is not a new sponsor. Cervélo, the bike manufacturer, is purchasing Shimano groups for the team after repeated requests for Shimano from team members.
> 
> The Garmin team used Shimano components until the 2011 season, when it merged with the former Cervélo TestTeam.
> 
> ...


Could it be this is just implicit marketing? VN is not exactly a publication with the highest standard. Who told the author about G-C riders asking for Shimano, team G-C? 

If they switch back to SRAM in the future, they can helpfully drop hints that SRAM has more than caught up to Shimano, blahblahblah. Smells like spin to me.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Then you're about 4 years behind the times.


That's what I was thinking....


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> So Cadel Evans is going to buy and campy on his Team Machine even though Shimano sponsors BMC? Not happening. Wheels are a tricky thing nowadays and plenty of rebadging goes on, but you're never going to see groupsets from SRAM/Campy on a Shimano sponsored team. If there's no proper component sponsor, then by all means, go buy whatever the hell you like.
> 
> But you just like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I don't expect you to understand this concept, so I'll spell it out. Garmin is not sponsored. They are buying parts.
> 
> And to quote the article to clarify it for your simple mind:


Your the simple mind! Garmin was a SRAM sponsored team. Due to rider DEMAND, Garmin chose to BUY Shimano stuff and forgo SRAM sponsorship. What don't you get? I don't care what group you like or I like. The fact is Garmin riders wanted Shimano over SRAM, even if the team has to pay for it! Kudos to Garmin for wanting to make their riders happy!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

BunnV said:


> That's what I was thinking....


Why? Because the crap I have seen SRAM come out with? Like bad Force brakes and exploding RD? Crappy GPX BBs? Bad shifting and loud Red dome cassettes? Should I go on? Yes, many things have been fixed now, but the cranks still suck. I along with many riders don't care for double tap shifting! Ergonomically, I like SRAM hoods over Shimano.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Your the simple mind smuck! Garmin was a SRAM sponsored team. Due to rider DEMAND, Garmin chose to BUY Shimano stuff and forgo SRAM sponsorship. What don't you get? I don't care what group you like or I like. The fact is Garmin riders wanted Shimano over SRAM, even if the team has to pay for it! Kudos to Garmin for wanting to make their riders happy!


The fact is you're blindly following what VeloNews claims and you don't know the terms of last year's SRAM deal, for that matter. Perhaps it was a 1 year deal, perhaps it was a carryover from the Cervelo merger, perhaps they didn't want to provide the same level of support.

All you're doing is stomping your feet and arguing because you believe that "everyone wants Di2" and "it's the future." You're also ranting and raving about how crappy SRAM parts are, yet you're one of the very few who are so vehemently anti-SRAM. We could just as easily talk about the inevitable destruction of rear Shimano shifters or the highway robbery that is Shimano chainrings. Maybe we can talk about the idiocy of a $100 chain tool for an 11 speed chain? 

All manufacturers have their quirks. You're the only one losing their mind over it. Get over yourself and your blind personal bias.


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## minutemaidman (Jun 14, 2010)

88 rex said:


> What don't they like about SRAM?


could be "the mechanical advantage. No batteries required."

or the clumsy FD shifting that SRAM is famous for.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*



DIRT BOY said:


> Your the simple mind smuck!



The fact you did this AFTER my warning mean you're lucky its just an infraction (the second of this thread). Next violation in the thread from anyone is a *posting vacation*. 

Thread is open for now.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Why? Because the crap I have seen SRAM come out with? Like bad Force brakes and exploding RD? Crappy GPX BBs? Bad shifting and loud Red dome cassettes? Should I go on? Yes, many things have been fixed now, but the cranks still suck. I along with many riders don't care for double tap shifting! Ergonomically, I like SRAM hoods over Shimano.


No, it's just that SRAM has become a major player in the pro peloton. It seems to me that whether the riders choose it or not, many teams are using it with great results. 

The teething pains you mention are well documented but the fact is, SRAM stuff works. If you like Double Tap, SRAM is a viable alternative to Shimano or Campagnolo.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> There cranks and BB suck, period. I mean their shifting style sucks for me personally. But overall, I don't feel that the SRAM overall quality is there yet. It will get there. As I feel their MTB shifters are superior to Shimano on the dirt.
> But I do feel, Shimano cassettes and chainrings are the smoothest.


Since I use a S900 crank with the GXP BB I'm interested in understanding what you mean by "suck". I only ask because after some fairly heavy use I don't feel or have experienced anything different compared to the 7800 crank and BB. To be fair I've only used SRAM for about a year and a half. 

Is the SRAM stuff less durable in your opinion or is there some engineering difference I'm not understanding that makes SRAM inferior?


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## tiflow_21 (Nov 21, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> There cranks and BB suck, period. I mean their shifting style sucks for me personally. But overall, I don't feel that the SRAM overall quality is there yet. It will get there. As I feel their MTB shifters are superior to Shimano on the dirt.
> But I do feel, Shimano cassettes and chainrings are the smoothest.


That's funny, I mainly race mtb and do not like SRAM shifters or components. I currently have 10sp X0 and 10sp XTR on two different bikes, XTR is FAR superior. Less adjustments, ability to multi-shift, more graceful shifting... I could go on. I feel like SRAM's quality isn't on par with shimano but hopefully it'll get closer with time. I see far more SRAM components getting warrantied than shimano, and while the guys at my LBS favor SRAM due to their quickness of warrantying defective products (and I'm guessing profit margin), they agree that there are far less problems with shimano.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I wonder if it will be painted as sram.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

YES!!!

I can't _wait_ for the day when I have to clean, lube, inflate, *and recharge* my bike between rides. Hopefully, someday I can also add to that: repolarize, check fluids, and defragment to the list of crappy tasks riding a bike will require.

This is the future, and it is beautiful.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Why have they become a player? Money, not function like everyone claims here.
> 
> I know they have become a player


You're the only one so vehemently claiming it's junk.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

BunnV said:


> No, it's just that SRAM has become a major player in the pro peloton. It seems to me that whether the riders choose it or not, many teams are using it with great results.
> 
> The teething pains you mention are well documented but the fact is, SRAM stuff works. If you like Double Tap, SRAM is a viable alternative to Shimano or Campagnolo.


Why have they become a player? Money, not function like everyone claims here.

I know they have become a player


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

tiflow_21 said:


> That's funny, I mainly race mtb and do not like SRAM shifters or components. I currently have 10sp X0 and 10sp XTR on two different bikes, XTR is FAR superior. Less adjustments, ability to multi-shift, more graceful shifting... I could go on. I feel like SRAM's quality isn't on par with shimano but hopefully it'll get closer with time. I see far more SRAM components getting warrantied than shimano, and while the guys at my LBS favor SRAM due to their quickness of warrantying defective products (and I'm guessing profit margin), they agree that there are far less problems with shimano.


That's cool. I have ZERO experience with the 10 spd MTB stuff, so you may be right. But 9 speed was not even close when it came to adjustments, shifting in poor conditions and so on. I guess Shimano got their act together on the MTB side after SRAM made HUGE in roads. I guess we are seeing it again on the road side now.


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## Ppopp (Jun 20, 2011)

I have a friend here in Boulder who works for the team in a support capacity, and he commented to me halfway through last season that the riders weren't all that happy with their SRAM kit. Not that there was anything wrong with SRAM, but after riding an entire season on Di2 going back to any mechanical system would be a disappointment.

I was at the Garmin team presentation last night at Boulder theater, and at one point someone from team management read off a long list of equipment sponsors to thank (Cervelo, Mavic, Rotor, etc.), but mention of any brake or shift component supplier was conspicuously absent.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> You're the only one so vehemently claiming it's junk.


And RBR is the only source for this debate? Its no obvious that if someone does not agree with you, they are wrong, simple minded, a cheapskate, etc. I guess that's how you roll...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> And RBR is the only source for this debate? Its no obvious that if someone does not agree with you, they are wrong, simple minded, a cheapskate, etc. I guess that's how you roll...


Pot...kettle? 

SRAM is as good as any other manufacturer. Each manufacturer has its pros and cons and each company has gone through its share of growing pains and missteps. Each person has different preferences as to why they chose what they did, which may not line up with your own. Shifters are as personal as the bar tape you select, and what works well and feels good for one person may be a nightmare for another. We get it, you hate SRAM and love Campy. You drool over electronic shifting. Are you really going to keep arguing about this? You've said your piece, so drop it and move on.

The thread discussion is how the switch by Garmin will this affect SRAM as a company and how will they make a positive out of it. Honestly, the whole thing's not going to make much of a splash in the market as a whole, as 95% of people who buy a bike aren't going to look at what pro team rides what components. That's for obsessive cyclists like those of us posting on these boards, not Joe SixPack who walks into Performance Bike and says he wants to buy a bike. The only thing they may have a clue about is who won the Tour and what bike they were on. Your fallacy is in believing that your clique of weight weenies and forum junkies represents the mass market, which it surely does not. This is the same fallacy that leads you to believe that electronic shifting will be mainstream on sub $1.5k bicycles in the near future, which it will not, because it is simply cost prohibitive.

You're perfectly welcome to your opinions, but don't get yourself all worked up when presented with a counterpoint to them, as you've done in many threads, from Apple products to shifting to chain lube.

Since your main goal here is simply to cause trouble, I'll put you on my ignore list where you belong so I don't have read your biased rants.


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

This situation is not completely without precedent. Back in the CSC days the team bought Shimano 7800 but used FSA cranksets. Also Cervelo Test Team did this in its first year, using Rotor cranksets. And last year Geox-TMC used 7900 groups with TRP brakes, Rotor cranks, and KMC chains. These teams were officially not sponsored by Shimano but may have received support of some form.

In general Shimano sponsored teams have to take whole package of groups plus wheels. Obviously Leopard last year was excepted from this using Bontrager wheels, but since Trek is such a big customer I am sure a deal was worked out. There were print ads for Shimano Di2 featuring Andy Schleck and Fabian Cancellara so they were obviously a Shimano supported team. But other teams like Sky, Rabobank, FdJ, and Euskatel use both groups and wheelsets. Not sure where BMC fell last year, they had Di2 but Easton wheels so maybe the same deal as Leopard.

At any rate, the interesting thing about this story is that according to VN and Nick Legan it was the riders who were requesting to go back to Shimano. Obviously there were reasons for this, maybe just that most of the team's stars had been riding Shimano for the past few years and did not like the change.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Eric_H said:


> This situation is not completely without precedent. Back in the CSC days the team bought Shimano 7800 but used FSA cranksets. Also Cervelo Test Team did this in its first year, using Rotor cranksets. And last year Geox-TMC used 7900 groups with TRP brakes, Rotor cranks, and KMC chains. These teams were officially not sponsored by Shimano but may have received support of some form.
> 
> In general Shimano sponsored teams have to take whole package of groups plus wheels. Obviously Leopard last year was excepted from this using Bontrager wheels, but since Trek is such a big customer I am sure a deal was worked out. There were print ads for Shimano Di2 featuring Andy Schleck and Fabian Cancellara so they were obviously a Shimano supported team. But other teams like Sky, Rabobank, FdJ, and Euskatel use both groups and wheelsets. Not sure where BMC fell last year, they had Di2 but Easton wheels so maybe the same deal as Leopard.
> 
> At any rate, the interesting thing about this story is that according to VN and Nick Legan it was the riders who were requesting to go back to Shimano. Obviously there were reasons for this, *maybe just that most of the team's stars had been riding Shimano for the past few years and did not like the change*.


That's why I wonder if it was part of the merger agreement between the two teams, and since the new year has come and contracts/sponsorships are being put together, now would be the time to make a change. 

Does anyone know if SRAM signed on for more than a single year with Cervelo Test?


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## speed metal (Feb 8, 2007)

I didn't read many post on this topic and this has probably been posted. They prefer Shimano.....REALLY? Shimano offered them a better sponsorship package. I bet at one time they said the same about SRAM. I bet they demanded Cervelo, Clif Bar, DZ Nuts, Mavic..............


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> Pot...kettle?
> 
> SRAM is as good as any other manufacturer. Each manufacturer has its pros and cons and each company has gone through its share of growing pains and missteps. Each person has different preferences as to why they chose what they did, which may not line up with your own. Shifters are as personal as the bar tape you select, and what works well and feels good for one person may be a nightmare for another. We get it, you hate SRAM and love Campy. You drool over electronic shifting. Are you really going to keep arguing about this? You've said your piece, so drop it and move on.
> 
> ...


That was funny and again stresses my point. You are clueless and no one may have an opinion different than you, period.

The lube thread proved my point. You had NOTHING to back your claims and called people cheapskates because they did not agree.

Again, clueless. Joe Si Pack DOES look at what a pro rider uses and wants the same stuff. Just look at everyone trying to emulate a pro with their riding position.

I only argue points when I have a strong opinion or I can back it with FACTS, period. You don't. We don't agree with you, we are clueless and have no idea what we are talking about.

God, .......:mad2:

Thanks for the ignore listing. :thumbsup:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Eric_H;3654313T said:


> At any rate, the interesting thing about this story is that according to VN and Nick Legan it was the riders who were requesting to go back to Shimano. Obviously there were reasons for this, maybe just that most of the team's stars had been riding Shimano for the past few years and did not like the change.


 I think that's it. Top riders just preferred not to change from Shimano. Now how this affect SRAM as a company, we will see. Its depends how Garmin does on racing year. If they win a lot of races or have a bunch of top placings, they avg person will look at their bikes and see Shimano, not SRAm That may sway their buying decisions. It should not, but it will.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

speed metal said:


> I didn't many post on this topic and this has probably been posted. They prefer Shimano.....REALLY? Shimano offered them a better sponsorship package. I bet at one time they said about SRAM. I bet they demanded Cervelo, Clif Bar, DZ Nuts, Mavic..............


Also worth mentioning, there are *certain* manufacturers that offer *addtional* podium bonuses to winning riders, in addition to the regular set of sponsorship perks.

Though I'm sure that would have *nothing* to do with any possible rider preference.


Human interest observation: 

I'm fascinated by the way people will read something, and believe it without question if it supports their pre-conceived notions, and blast all over it should it happen to fly in the face of what they already believe. For example, I have no doubt that VN is faithfully reporting what someone told them about alleged rider preferences. I have no particular reason to believe that statement, as compared to believing that it's marketing spin to cover a larger, more heavyhanded backroom deal by Shimano. I recall some people in this thread have previously accused Shimano of doing such things, when teams switched from (notSRAM) to Shimano.

Curious.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

*It's Business not Performance*

I don't think this is a performance debate at all. Pro riders and pro teams exist to sell stuff. That's what they are paid for and they are professionals at it. They are probably all happy that someone came to the table with more sponsorship money. Shimano probably had some funds to go around since HTC Highroad folded.

Shimano has invested heavily in electronic and now that Campy are in the game, they are likely ready to poor some money into marketing. 

SRAM had to blow lots of money on sponsorships to get established but since Shimano and Campy are beating them to market with electronic shifting they are probably bumping their R&D expenditures. They will also be targeting a public offering of shares so I'm sure they want to be showing good cash flow. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Campy doesn't pick up a new team this year since they will want to hype their EPS group.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Chainstay said:


> I don't think this is a performance debate at all. Pro riders and pro teams exist to sell stuff. That's what they are paid for and they are professionals at it. They are probably all happy that someone came to the table with more sponsorship money. Shimano probably had some funds to go around since HTC Highroad folded.
> 
> Shimano has invested heavily in electronic and now that Campy are in the game, they are likely ready to poor some money into marketing.
> 
> ...


Seriously, try reading the article before commenting. Garmin is purchasing the Shimano kits, Shimano is not a sponsor. Also note they use Rotor cranks (that is listed as a sponsor) and Shimano and Campy both take a dim view of supporting a breakup of components (translation: they won't do it).

Also, please cite your source for SRAM going public. They received a cash infusion from Lehman Brothers back in late 2008, I have not heard or read anything that they were seeking to do an IPO but I could be mistaken or simply have forgotten as well...

**edit** I found the announcement from May 2011, not sure the action has happened yet though.


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## dr4cats (Aug 8, 2010)

Shimano rules the world of bicycling.

I have a few bikes. Some with Sram, some with Shimano. My opinion is that Shimano shifts much better, more precisely and is much more reliable. That applies to brakes, cables, cable guides, shifters, derailleurs, crank bearings and shifting in general.

Just my $0.02. So I truly understand why pros would insist on Shimano. Cervelo is probably the best all around team in the world, so for the riders to request Shimano, it speaks for itself...I just happen to agree with those riders......I am just a lot slower than them....


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> We could just as easily talk about the inevitable destruction of rear Shimano shifters or the highway robbery that is Shimano chainrings.


Wait a minute: Are you saying that there's a company whose chainrings are even more expensive than Campy's? 



robdamanii said:


> Maybe we can talk about the idiocy of a $100 chain tool for an 11 speed chain?


Hey, now, you're crossing a line here...  
It's a very pretty chain tool, too! Plus, those chains last forever, so the money you spend on the tool you're going to save in chains over a year or two.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

dr4cats said:


> I have a few bikes. Some with Sram, some with Shimano.


So, you don't know anything about Campagnolo, I take it.



dr4cats said:


> So I truly understand why pros would insist on Shimano.


Pffft, you don't understand anything, unless you understand why pros would insist on Campagnolo. 

Seriously, though, other than awesome marketing, I wouldn't make too much out of that Garmin-Cervelo decision.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

Honestly, I think most people are reading too deeply into this story. I really doubt a protour team would specifically hire a journalist to bash on a specific component in public. With the power that SRAM has garnered in the last few years that could be a terrible move somewhere down the line. 

The reason the quote about the rider preference probably came from Nicks connections to the mechanics that work on the Garmin bikes. Pro Mechanics talk and gossip a lot amongst themselves about equipment and riders, at least from what I have seen. If Nick heard the quote from a rider the quote is unattributed because no rider in his right mind would allow that opinion to be printed.

I find it entertaining that many think that since Pro riders are paid to ride a certain component they don't think about it or care. This is true in some cases, but there are just as many (or more) pros that think extremely critically about their equipment. I know a couple of guys that breathed a huge sigh of relief when their team decided to switch back to Shimano from SRAM. Ive also seen guys curse their luck when they lost the chance to use SRAM. 

You will rarely ever hear a comment like that from a rider, because they are paid professionals. Guys talk amongst themselves during races about issues with equipment but will almost never mention it to anyone outside the pro peloton. 

Being a pro and liking the equipment you are on can be troublesome at times. When it comes to telling people you like your gear (especially on the net) many assume you are just a paid shill for the company. If a pro talks openly, freely and warmly about their stuff they 99% really do like it. If they say nothing or something along the lines of "yeah, its good" they either dont care about what they are riding or are holding their tongues on the subject


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## Aindreas (Sep 1, 2010)

DIRT BOY said:


> Again, clueless. Joe Si Pack DOES look at what a pro rider uses and wants the same stuff. Just look at everyone trying to emulate a pro with their riding position.


I disagree. The term "Joe Sixpack" refers to an average person. The average person walking into most bike shops doesn't know diddly about components, pro-tour teams, or much of anything except that Lance is the most bestest ever and he won a lot of races in France. The guys who know components and pro-tour stuff are hardly Joe Six-packs.

As for SRAM: I disagree that their road components are crap. We've had no problems with them at the shop and I'd wager to bet that many of the issues people have had are the result of nothing more than lack of familiarity with how SRAM stuff works. Our judgement is they make parts of very high quality, and my very subjective personal preference is SRAM over Shimano.

I've had Rival on my rode bike for most of the year, and it works flawlessly. Love it. The only thing tricky to set up was the BB, and that's just because I wasn't familiar with GXP stuff. The head mechanic solved the problem in like 5 seconds. E-Z-as-pie. Everything else was a breeze to set up and tune. Heck, most of the guys who bring their race bikes to us have RED. No one complains, everyone seems more than happy with SRAM. 

I can totally understand someone preferring to have Shimano or Campy or SRAM on their bike(s), but to say one of those companies makes grossly inferior products just seems factually incorrect to me.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

duplicate


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> Seriously, try reading the article before commenting. Garmin is purchasing the Shimano kits, Shimano is not a sponsor. Also note they use Rotor cranks (that is listed as a sponsor) and Shimano and Campy both take a dim view of supporting a breakup of components (translation: they won't do it).
> 
> Also, please cite your source for SRAM going public. They received a cash infusion from Lehman Brothers back in late 2008, I have not heard or read anything that they were seeking to do an IPO but I could be mistaken or simply have forgotten as well...
> 
> **edit** I found the announcement from May 2011, not sure the action has happened yet though.


However the Garmin PR people chose to phrase this there are strong business reasons at play. Garmin has too large a budget with too much credibility to forgo a component sponsor like SRAM and get nothing in return.

The IPO press was in the Chicago Tribune on Nov 1

SRAM International targets $300M in IPO - chicagotribune.com


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> they avg person will look at their bikes and see Shimano


The average person, seriously doesn't care.  The average person goes out to buy a bike at a certain price that they feel they can afford, ride it maybe a year and then store it away in their garage until the day comes when they try to sell it for X dollars and are surprised to find it is only worth 1/4 what they paid for it. I am sure at that point they are asking themselves, "$hit, if only I had gotten XXXXXXX components on this bike, I'd be able to sell for $XXXX!" That's your average person, at least in the US. This decision will make absolutely no difference in any company's bottom line and for you to think it will, seriously calls into question your ability to understand market forces.

Now as for SRAM sucking, I've had Shimano and Campy since the early 80s and been witness to the continual evolution of both. I've never been one to say one is better than the other, as mostly it depends on rider preference. In fact, I preferred Superbe Pro for many years and we see what happened to them. Having said all that, I was an early adopter of SRAM and now it is what I prefer, but not exclusively. I have Dura Ace 7900 as well as SRAM Red and I like them both and both are trouble free, for me. It might be your opinion that SRAM sucks, it is just that to me, that is such a bogus and irrational statement to make.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Aindreas said:


> I disagree. The term "Joe Sixpack" refers to an average person. The average person walking into most bike shops doesn't know diddly about components, pro-tour teams, or much of anything except that Lance is the most bestest ever and he won a lot of races in France. The guys who know components and pro-tour stuff are hardly Joe Six-packs.
> 
> As for SRAM: I disagree that their road components are crap. We've had no problems with them at the shop and I'd wager to bet that many of the issues people have had are the result of nothing more than lack of familiarity with how SRAM stuff works. Our judgement is they make parts of very high quality, and my very subjective personal preference is SRAM over Shimano.
> 
> ...


Yet, I know riders that have had FORCE shifters keep braking. FD shifting issues across the board and not the best brakes.

What I have said time again and again, is SRAM's Double tap shifting sucks! Not so much the product itself. Hat hate the DT shifting system. The product itself in ok-fine. But they still have a sub-par group compared to Shimano and Campagnolo overall.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

danl1 said:


> Dunno. Perhaps Shimano isn't a named team sponsor, but on the other hand, Shimano's well known for playing with a strong hand in the OEM market.


I'm going to say that's the real reason.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> *The average person, seriously doesn't care.*  The average person goes out to buy a bike at a certain price that they feel they can afford, ride it maybe a year and then store it away in their garage until the day comes when they try to sell it for X dollars and are surprised to find it is only worth 1/4 what they paid for it. I am sure at that point they are asking themselves, "$hit, if only I had gotten XXXXXXX components on this bike, I'd be able to sell for $XXXX!" That's your average person, at least in the US. This decision will make absolutely no difference in any company's bottom line and for you to think it will, seriously calls into question your ability to understand market forces.
> 
> Now as for SRAM sucking, I've had Shimano and Campy since the early 80s and been witness to the continual evolution of both. I've never been one to say one is better than the other, as mostly it depends on rider preference. In fact, I preferred Superbe Pro for many years and we see what happened to them. Having said all that, I was an early adopter of SRAM and now it is what I prefer, but not exclusively. I have Dura Ace 7900 as well as SRAM Red and I like them both and both are trouble free, for me. It might be your opinion that SRAM sucks, it is just that to me, that is such a bogus and irrational statement to make.


The average *person* does care, to a degree. I can't even count the number of times a customer has brought in a mangled pos bso from X-Mart and proceeded to tell me how great it is because it has "Shimano/ShiMayNo/Shim-a-no" on it. They were amazed that they could buy a bike for $80 that had such high quality parts on it. I always want to tell them that those "high quality" rear derailleurs can be purchased for about $1.25 by me, so you know it's cheaper for the OEM.

So, for the average person, it does matter. Joe Blow on the street doesn't want a SRAM bike from X-Mart because a) it isn't Shimano and b) he can't pronounce SRAM.

Now, if we're talking the average *cyclist*, then that's different....


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

chase196126 said:


> Honestly, I think most people are reading too deeply into this story. I really doubt a protour team would specifically hire a journalist to bash on a specific component in public. With the power that SRAM has garnered in the last few years that could be a terrible move somewhere down the line.
> 
> The reason the quote about the rider preference probably came from Nicks connections to the mechanics that work on the Garmin bikes. Pro Mechanics talk and gossip a lot amongst themselves about equipment and riders, at least from what I have seen. If Nick heard the quote from a rider the quote is unattributed because no rider in his right mind would allow that opinion to be printed.


That's why the best would have been for Nick Legan to write, "VeloNews heard from xxx that yyy asked for zzz," instead of, "yyy asked for zzz." Otherwise everybody is free to guess who xxx might be. 



> I find it entertaining that many think that since Pro riders are paid to ride a certain component they don't think about it or care. This is true in some cases, but there are just as many (or more) pros that think extremely critically about their equipment. I know a couple of guys that breathed a huge sigh of relief when their team decided to switch back to Shimano from SRAM. Ive also seen guys curse their luck when they lost the chance to use SRAM.
> 
> You will rarely ever hear a comment like that from a rider, because they are paid professionals. Guys talk amongst themselves during races about issues with equipment but will almost never mention it to anyone outside the pro peloton.
> 
> Being a pro and liking the equipment you are on can be troublesome at times. When it comes to telling people you like your gear (especially on the net) many assume you are just a paid shill for the company. If a pro talks openly, freely and warmly about their stuff they 99% really do like it. If they say nothing or something along the lines of "yeah, its good" they either dont care about what they are riding or are holding their tongues on the subject


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

orange_julius said:


> That's why the best would have been for Nick Legan to write, "VeloNews heard from xxx that yyy asked for zzz," instead of, "yyy asked for zzz." Otherwise everybody is free to guess who xxx might be.


That would be a serious dick move on Nick's part, that would get several people in trouble. With his experience wrenching for the pros I doubt he would ever consider listing names in a case like this. 

Or the info he got might have been as vague as "a bunch of guys wanted Shimano", with no names given.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> The average *person* does care, to a degree. I can't even count the number of times a customer has brought in a mangled pos bso from X-Mart and proceeded to tell me how great it is because it has "Shimano/ShiMayNo/Shim-a-no" on it. They were amazed that they could buy a bike for $80 that had such high quality parts on it. I always want to tell them that those "high quality" rear derailleurs can be purchased for about $1.25 by me, so you know it's cheaper for the OEM.
> 
> So, for the average person, it does matter. Joe Blow on the street doesn't want a SRAM bike from X-Mart because a) it isn't Shimano and b) he can't pronounce SRAM.
> 
> Now, if we're talking the average *cyclist*, then that's different....


What about the group that walks in and wishes to spend about $1200-$1500 on a bike? They're probably not fans who watch cycling on TV or read much about the difference in components. I'm thinking of the kind of customer who reads that cycling is cool in Outside mag and comes to you for a bike.

I guess what I'm asking is how many prospective buyers are going to even see that press release, read that "xxxx prefers Shimano" and say that "I have to have Shimano because Garmin riders use it?" I'm thinking the number will be a pretty small percentage, just like the number of "cyclists" (I use the term loosely) follow the tour day by day, post on forums like these and actually read magazines like Velonews.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it just doesn't seem that a Velonews press release is going to sway the average consumer much.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> Now, if we're talking the average *cyclist*, then that's different....


When I say avg joe, I mean avg cyclist like you said. I should be more clear.


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

It was either switch to Shimano or hold out for Suntour to make a come back


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## MojoHamuki (Feb 20, 2009)

I think it has more to do just like with any other business - business. When Jonathan Vaughters started as CEO of Chipotle team he worked with Shimano and they used the DI2 - then when Garmin Cervelo merged with TestTeam Cervelo had ties with Sram. Now after the results of this years tour I'm sure Vaughters and the riders from Chipotle had more pull over Cervelo.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Garmin slipstream rode DA, right?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

MojoHamuki said:


> I think it has more to do just like with any other business - business. When Jonathan Vaughters started as CEO of Chipotle team he worked with Shimano and they used the DI2 - then when Garmin Cervelo merged with TestTeam Cervelo had ties with Sram. Now after the results of this years tour I'm sure Vaughters and the riders from Chipotle had more pull over Cervelo.


Vaughter's management company has the Protour license that the team raced under, they always had more pull over Cervelo.


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## Neal71 (Dec 2, 2010)

DIRT BOY said:


> Yet, I know riders that have had FORCE shifters keep braking.


Are you eliminating the possibility or user error? 


The double tap is something you like or don't. You sound naive when you say it "sucks". It might not be appealing to you personally, but the product is clearly appealing to a very large number of people. Just going on the increase in SRAM's market share over the past few years. Numbers typically don't lie. Not something most can say about the media (attempting to keep on topic). 

Neal


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

I read on another forum...since Garmin will be using their own power meter and Quarq is owned by SRAM?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

AvantDale said:


> I read on another forum...since Garmin will be using their own power meter and Quarq is owned by SRAM?


The team will also use Garmin’s new Vector power-measuring pedals (made by Exuster).

Garmin Vector - YouTube


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

PlatyPius said:


> The average *person* does care, to a degree. I can't even count the number of times a customer has brought in a mangled pos bso from X-Mart and proceeded to tell me how great it is because it has "Shimano/ShiMayNo/Shim-a-no" on it. They were amazed that they could buy a bike for $80 that had such high quality parts on it. I always want to tell them that those "high quality" rear derailleurs can be purchased for about $1.25 by me, so you know it's cheaper for the OEM.
> 
> So, for the average person, it does matter. Joe Blow on the street doesn't want a SRAM bike from X-Mart because a) it isn't Shimano and b) he can't pronounce SRAM.
> 
> Now, if we're talking the average *cyclist*, then that's different....



I don't know if I'm actually disagreeing with your point, because it seems that you're saying that lots of "average" cyclists know the brand Shimano. I won't argue with that.

But in my own family's stable of 11 bikes (5 mtb's, 1 hybrid, 4 road bikes, one tandem) and 4 riders, we have Sram road and mtb components, Shimano road and mtb components, and even an old Suntour mtb group. 

Of all that.... only one rider even knows what's on the bike. The other three (encompassing 8 of the 11 bikes) have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what brand of componentry is on the bike, and have absolutely no idea what a "shimano" or "sram" is.

In my sample, in only 1 of 4 riders, 3 of 11 bikes is the brand even known, and even I and my 3 bikes don't really care. And even for me, a serious "enthusiast" - I have all three of the above named groups, and even though I tinker a lot and ride a lot, when push comes to shove, it doesn't really matter to me either!. I have absolutely no interest in what the pro riders are using, and the others don't even know that there are such a thing as pro riders (not really, but they don't have any significant knowledge or interest).


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

sorry for the double post.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

I've been on the original Sram Rival and Force for years. I have had ZERO problems and LOVE the way double tap works compared to Shimano. And, I have been riding my TruVativ cranks for thousands of miles, also with no problems. Silly me, I had no idea that they "SUCK"!


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Garmin slipstream rode DA, right?


Yes, Di2 on Felts. I really liked those bikes!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

T K said:


> I've been on the original Sram Rival and Force for years. I have had ZERO problems and LOVE the way double tap works compared to Shimano. And, I have been riding my TruVativ cranks for thousands of miles, also with no problems. Silly me, I had no idea that they "SUCK"!


Great and glad your happy. I just don't like DT shifting. I also hate vanilla ice cream.

And yes, Issues with FORCE RD, brakes, Red power dome cassettes and SRAM/Truvativ GPX BB are very well documented. Are most in the past? yes, except for the BB. I still see issues with friends, customers and clients. Does Shimano have issues? yes, Campy? Sure.

Again, I personally don't care for SRAMs DT System and overall quality right now. So sue me.  I like the hoods ergonomics though.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Word has it that SRAM is making an announcement this week.


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Chainstay said:


> *SRAM had to blow lots of money on sponsorships to get established* but since Shimano and Campy are beating them to market with electronic shifting they are probably bumping their R&D expenditures. They will also be targeting a public offering of shares so I'm sure they want to be showing good cash flow.


I'm wondering if this isn't part of the case. Look at how aggressively SRAM started pushing their stuff to pro teams (don't forget about continental teams!). I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed hard to get a market share and establish their road groups and now will pull back a little and devote more time to R&D for the next iteration of Red and what I can only assume to be some form of electronic shifting (however I think that SRAM would have to completely re-work their shifting ergonomics to work with what seems to be the general concept of electronic shifting).


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

No way. SRAM is going to corner the market on cable actuated high end gear. That's what I would do. Electronic shifting is a about as awesome as Biopace.

What would be sweet, though, is _wireless_ shifting. And rigging your shifter up to change _someone else's_ gear. Now that would be a real advantage in competition.

I mean just imagine the entire peloton shifting each other's bikes all at the same time. That would be hilarious.


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## allenpg (Sep 13, 2006)

I'm wondering if Cervelo doesn't have Di2 specific frames in development and debuting next year with the team. Nothing that much different with frame design except for places to stow batteries, wires, etc.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

MojoHamuki said:


> I think it has more to do just like with any other business - business. When Jonathan Vaughters started as CEO of Chipotle team he worked with Shimano and they used the DI2 - then when Garmin Cervelo merged with TestTeam Cervelo had ties with Sram. Now after the results of this years tour I'm sure Vaughters and the riders from Chipotle had more pull over Cervelo.


I wonder if the use of Sram last season was a byproduct of the merger with CTT. If there was a year left on the contract between Cervèlo & Sram then perhaps Slipstream agreed to honour it and now are free to return to using Shimano. Certainly makes more sense than changing because the riders threw a hissy fit, IMO.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ultimobici said:


> I wonder if the use of Sram last season was a byproduct of the merger with CTT. If there was a year left on the contract between Cervèlo & Sram then perhaps Slipstream agreed to honour it and now are free to return to using Shimano. Certainly makes more sense than changing because the riders threw a hissy fit, IMO.


That would probably be a pretty good guess. If I recall, CTT started off using Shimano their first season.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> That's why you don't work at SRAM.
> 
> Maybe if you want to corner *sub $1000 bikes* and Walmart.


That's where the money is. I don't know about walmart, basic to midrange bikes, volumes must be higher. I got my resume all typed up and ready to go. SRAM and foto, ready for world domination!

I suggest you all start kissing my butt now. I will be sure to remember those that believed in me.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

foto said:


> No way. SRAM is going to corner the market on cable actuated high end gear. That's what I would do. e the entire peloton shifting each other's bikes all at the same time. That would be hilarious.


That's why you don't work at SRAM.

Maybe if you want to corner sub $1000 bikes and Walmart.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

foto said:


> That's where the money is. I don't know about walmart, basic to midrange bikes, volumes must be higher. I got my resume all typed up and ready to go. SRAM and foto, ready for world domination!
> 
> I suggest you all start kissing my butt now. I will be sure to remember those that believed in me.


LMAO! Sorry, electronic shifting will only get cheaper. I bet the old days, FG and SS riders said RD would never work.

hey, why do we combustion engines? He have horses that can pull our buggies. :thumbsup:

Like it or not, electronic shifting WILL be the future. Its neat and all, but I still like mechanical shifting right now.

Imagine when Apple merges with say ARAM, and Siri will shift your bike buy voice, LOL.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

DIRT BOY said:


> LMAO! Sorry, electronic shifting will only get cheaper. I bet the old days, FG and SS riders said RD would never work.
> 
> hey, why do we combustion engines? He have horses that can pull our buggies. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


My personal opinion (worth what you're paying for it) is that the future of simplified, electronic shifting is exactly in the casual user market. Anything that will give a casual rider a decent range of gears for making it up hills without the fussiness of the two derailleur set up. Be honest now, how many casual riders do you know who actually know how to efficiently and properly use the two derailleurs? A two button smart shifting system that just shifts up and down and decides which front and rear gears to use, at a Walmart bike price point is the future. Only maintenance is to change batteries which I believe the average user will be competent at and won't consider a hassle.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Jump to 12 speed.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

SRAM is not going electronic. They've had a "batteries not required" campaign, and check out this. I think that means that they are going to turn the dial up to eleven. At least it will differentiate compared to Shimano, for a couple of years anyway. Presumably it will also have to be lighter, stiffer, prettier, etc. Maybe their Quarq cranks will be fully rebranded and brought into the group set?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Camilo said:


> My personal opinion (worth what you're paying for it) is that the future of simplified, electronic shifting is exactly in the casual user market. Anything that will give a casual rider a decent range of gears for making it up hills without the fussiness of the two derailleur set up. Be honest now, how many casual riders do you know who actually know how to efficiently and properly use the two derailleurs? A two button smart shifting system that just shifts up and down and decides which front and rear gears to use, at a Walmart bike price point is the future. Only maintenance is to change batteries which I believe the average user will be competent at and won't consider a hassle.


I agree, but that might be 5-10 years out, before these pricing drops low enough.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

In all seriousness, it is stupid to try to compete with shimano by coming out with another version of the same product. High end cable actuated gear at an affordable pricepoint makes a lot more sense then trying to go toe to toe with the shimano with something that is gimmicky at best.

don't need an MBA to figure that out.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> In all seriousness, it is stupid to try to compete with shimano by coming out with another version of the same product. High end cable actuated gear at an affordable pricepoint makes a lot more sense then trying to go toe to toe with the shimano with something that is gimmicky at best.
> 
> don't need an MBA to figure that out.


But you do need a MBA to figure out the notion of perceived value and technological leadership by the consumer and how to maintain an edge on your competition. In two years time making the claim that "my cable actuated system is the best" won't mean nearly as much. Electronic shifting is as gimmicky as a cell phone...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> That was funny and again stresses my point. You are clueless and no one may have an opinion different than you, period.
> The lube thread proved my point. You had NOTHING to back your claims and called people cheapskates because they did not agree.


Yeah his name-calling/hissy-fit/bullying/tantrum might have worked on the grade 4 girls at school but we're big people here. I guess he didn't learn from the sad lube thread.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Yeah his name-calling/hissy-fit/bullying/tantrum might have worked on the grade 4 girls at school but we're big people here. I guess he didn't learn from the sad lube thread.


If you make ridiculous comments like your silly friend there, you'll get a similarly ridiculous response.

Dirt Boy's palpable bias reduces his commentary to a joke.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

MBAs were not needed in this thread.


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

DIRT BOY said:


> God, your an idiot!.


We need an "irony" emoticon!


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

Local Hero said:


> MBAs were not needed in this thread.


I would disagree, but then I always understood MBA meant *M*aster *B*ull$hit *A*rtist.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> But you do need a MBA to figure out the notion of perceived value and technological leadership by the consumer and how to maintain an edge on your competition. In two years time making the claim that "my cable actuated system is the best" won't mean nearly as much. Electronic shifting is as gimmicky as a cell phone...


So you are trying to say that SRAM is going to go for "perceived technological leadership" by coming late to market with a technology Shimano has already trickled down to ultegra? And that campy is releasing in their own "as good, but less so" version?

Riiiight. Is that what they teach you in business school?

My guess is that SRAM is going to follow the model they employed with their MTB stuff, high quality at a reasonable price. Like the 2x10 thing they are doing, and I personally really like x9; for what you pay it is really nice. Definitely not as "high tech" as the Shimano xtr sti abc pdq crap they sell to goons with more money than sense. Just saying.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

PRB said:


> I would disagree, but then I always understood MBA meant *M*aster *B*ull$hit *A*rtist.


you can just type bullshit, you know.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

foto said:


> you can just type bullshit, you know.


Hmmm...usually it filters 'bad words' out. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> So you are trying to say that SRAM is going to go for "perceived technological leadership" by coming late to market with a technology Shimano has already trickled down to ultegra? And that campy is releasing in their own "as good, but less so" version?
> 
> Riiiight. Is that what they teach you in business school?
> 
> My guess is that SRAM is going to follow the model they employed with their MTB stuff, high quality at a reasonable price. Like the 2x10 thing they are doing, and I personally really like x9; for what you pay it is really nice. Definitely not as "high tech" as the Shimano xtr sti abc pdq crap they sell to goons with more money than sense. Just saying.


I'm saying if they don't produce their own iteration of an electronic group they will be perceived as being behind their competition eventually (sooner rather than later). SRAM most likely will incorporate some sort of hydraulic brake in their next generation road stuff, that's going to cost money. As for BS artist, most of what you have responded with is just that and indicates a distinct lack of understanding since you believe SRAM is high quality. SRAM is competitively priced, their products work, but the materials and fit and finish on most of their products is not in the same league as Shimano or Campy. I ride XX on the mtb, and it works fine but I'm not under any illusion that it's better than 980 XTR. It sounds like you have some class envy, since anybody on XTR is a goon who apparently needs to pass some set of performance criteria that Foto establishes as opposed to simply paying the price of admission.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> ...I ride XX on the mtb, and it works fine but I'm not under any illusion that it's better than 980 XTR. It sounds like you have some class envy, since anybody on XTR is a goon who apparently needs to pass some set of performance criteria that Foto establishes as opposed to simply paying the price of admission.


Never said it was better. Look, I didn't make the rules, I just play the game. In fact I totally agree with you. If you paid out of pocket for XTR, you _absolutely have _paid the price of admission. You paid to get into Clown Town. Unfortunately as many people later find out, you can get into Clown Town for free. Although some people would rather pay anyway lest everyone finds out they come from a modest background and value the _experience_ more than the gear. Heavens!

Anyway, I will never have top of the line stuff. Not because of my class, which is solidly upper middle, but because I embarrass myself out there enough without doing it on pro level gear to boot.

By the way, if you give me $5 I will act impressed by your bike.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> Never said it was better. Look, I didn't make the rules, I just play the game. In fact I totally agree with you. If you paid out of pocket for XTR, you _absolutely have _paid the price of admission. You paid to get into Clown Town. Unfortunately as many people later find out, you can get into Clown Town for free. Although some people would rather pay anyway lest everyone finds out they come from a modest background and value the _experience_ more than the gear. Heavens!
> 
> Anyway, I will never have top of the line stuff. Not because of my class, which is solidly upper middle, but because I embarrass myself out there enough without doing it on pro level gear to boot.
> 
> By the way, if you give me $5 I will act impressed by your bike.


Better yet, why not ask me what a one handed clap sounds like...?:idea:


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

This thread got real serious real fast. 

I heard scuttlebutt that sram is going hydraulic road...which doesn't make too much sense now that cross season is coming to a close and the UCI hasn't given the green light for discs on the road. I also heard about new cables. And I hear the news is coming out this week. 

I'd be interested in the hydraulic road/aero shifters. I have elixers on my CX rig...we shall see.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Pots, meet kettle's.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> This thread got real serious real fast.
> 
> I heard scuttlebutt that sram is going hydraulic road...which doesn't make too much sense now that cross season is coming to a close and the UCI hasn't given the green light for discs on the road. I also heard about new cables. And I hear the news is coming out this week.
> 
> I'd be interested in the hydraulic road/aero shifters. I have elixers on my CX rig...we shall see.


There was also some rumor out there that the Zipp VumaQuad crank would be redesigned and SRAM branded.

Hydraulic levers might certainly be an interesting innovation. If they are limited to road disc brakes though, it seems like a bad time considering they can't put their prized product to use in the peloton. 

Now if they came out with a hydraulic version of their standard calipers, that may be interesting.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> There was also some rumor out there that the Zipp VumaQuad crank would be redesigned and SRAM branded.
> 
> Hydraulic levers might certainly be an interesting innovation. If they are limited to road disc brakes though, it seems like a bad time considering they can't put their prized product to use in the peloton.
> 
> Now if they came out with a hydraulic version of their standard calipers, that may be interesting.


A friend of mine is running hydro discs on his CX bike that are actuated from standard Shimano levers. No reason why the same cannot work with SRAM or Camp levers AFAIK.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> A friend of mine is running hydro discs on his CX bike that are actuated from standard Shimano levers. No reason why the same cannot work with SRAM or Camp levers AFAIK.


I know that they have the adapters to run hydros with regular levers, although I've never used them. I'm speculating that they're building hydro specific levers. But it doesn't make much sense with discs not allowed in sanctioned competitions. It would work nicely for cx, but not really for road (not to mention the lack of disc compatible road frames.)

Plenty of rumors flying around though...no way to know until they make an announcement.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

I agree that it would seem strange to spend a lot of time and money on developing a hydro system that cannot be raced.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I heard that the hydraulic fluid will double as the conductor for the new electronic shifters.

Recommended you cease licking your derailers.

Also in the works, mammary drive, via BSNYC


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> This thread got real serious real fast.
> 
> I heard scuttlebutt that sram is going hydraulic road...which doesn't make too much sense now that cross season is coming to a close and the UCI hasn't given the green light for discs on the road. I also heard about new cables. And I hear the news is coming out this week.
> 
> I'd be interested in the hydraulic road/aero shifters. I have elixers on my CX rig...we shall see.


Cross season is just getting ramped up in Europe. Discs on pro road race bikes doesn't compute.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

55x11 said:


> is that true that most pros run Di2 on race bikes? I read somewhere that top sprinters are going back to mechanical DA because they don't trust electronic shifting. Which is a bit ironic since Shimano has been pushing sprinter-buttons and all...


Cancellara rode mechanical this season as well.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Mr. Scary said:


> Di2 for their race bikes, mechanical DA for their practice bikes. Garmin is still using Rotor cranks so that would preclude a Shimano sponsorship deal (just as Campy doesn't allow breaking up groups for sponsorship either).


is that true that most pros run Di2 on race bikes? I read somewhere that top sprinters are going back to mechanical DA because they don't trust electronic shifting. Which is a bit ironic since Shimano has been pushing sprinter-buttons and all...


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Cancellara rode mechanical this season as well.


What a Luddite. He sucks at riding too.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

foto said:


> What a Luddite. He sucks at riding too.


I think he used Di2 on the TT bikes.

I'm sure if he used the "future of shifting" he would have won Flanders and Roubaix. And the world championship road race. And the tour. And the Giro. And the Vuelta.

Ad nauseum.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Correct, I mean started the new future of electronic shifting, without failing like Mavic did.


To be fair to Mavic, they didn't so much fail rather they fell foul of the UCI ruling on spinaci bars. Their lever shape was deemed too long so was doomed to failure.

As for the differences between Campag & Shimano electronic being aesthetic, reading the various tests since the EPS launch, they appear to be very different. Shimano is purely touch button whereas Campag is still lever operated. EPS has its diagnostic function integrated but DI2 requires a £275 kit to suss out where a fault lies. DI2 is heavier in its stock format than Record. Admittedly, DI2 has already been hacked to make it as light as standard Dura Ace, but it's only a matter of time before someone has the balls to do the same to EPS.

Most importantly, Shimano only goes to 10, Campagnolo EPS goes to 11!:wink5:


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> To be fair to Mavic, they didn't so much fail rather they fell foul of the UCI ruling on spinaci bars. Their lever shape was deemed too long so was doomed to failure.
> 
> As for the differences between Campag & Shimano electronic being aesthetic, reading the various tests since the EPS launch, they appear to be very different. Shimano is purely touch button whereas Campag is still lever operated. EPS has its diagnostic function integrated but* DI2 requires a £275 kit to suss out where a fault lies.* DI2 is heavier in its stock format than Record. Admittedly, DI2 has already been hacked to make it as light as standard Dura Ace, but it's only a matter of time before someone has the balls to do the same to EPS.
> 
> Most importantly, Shimano only goes to 10, Campagnolo EPS goes to 11!:wink5:


Awesome! It just keeps sounding better and better!


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

Best thread in a while... :thumbsup:



>


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> I think he used Di2 on the TT bikes.
> 
> I'm sure if he used the "future of shifting" he would have won Flanders and Roubaix. And the world championship road race. And the tour. And the Giro. And the Vuelta.
> 
> Ad nauseum.


And BMC switched from Campy to Shimano this season because of Di2 (Movistar had the exclusive contract for Campy EPS in 2011), I think there was a guy on BMC that did pretty good at a big race, I'm not sure but seems to me I remember something like that... 

Electronic shifting is not necessarily any better, but it is the future and it is what's being invested in and developed by two of the three component makers. It's not going to get filed in the trash can anytime soon. Electric cars and hybrid cars do not represent large volumes for the automotive industry today either but they still represent various technologies that will lessen the need for the internal combustion engine (with the Chevy Volt a three cylinder engine acts only as a generator for the battery, it doesn't power the wheels). The Tesla vehicles don't have a combustion engine at all, but I suppose the Luddites here will tell the Tesla investors they don't know what they are doing since the cars are expensive blah, blah, blah?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> And BMC switched from Campy to Shimano this season because of Di2 (Movistar had the exclusive contract for Campy EPS in 2011), I think there was a guy on BMC that did pretty good at a big race, I'm not sure but seems to me I remember something like that...
> 
> Electronic shifting is not necessarily any better, but it is the future and it is what's being invested in and developed by two of the three component makers. It's not going to get filed in the trash can anytime soon. Electric cars and hybrid cars do not represent large volumes for the automotive industry today either but they still represent various technologies that will lessen the need for the internal combustion engine (with the Chevy Volt a three cylinder engine acts only as a generator for the battery, it doesn't power the wheels). The Tesla vehicles don't have a combustion engine at all, but I suppose the Luddites here will tell the Tesla investors they don't know what they are doing since the cars are expensive blah, blah, blah?


You are missing the point.

SRAM is not a luxury bicycle components boutique. Their big inroads in the road market are "competitively priced" parts that "work well" (your words, by the way) for mid-range OEM, and aftermarket kits for enthusiasts and amateur racers that are paying their own way. They are taking business from Shimano in the Tiagra/105 customer range. Not so much the Dura Ace/Super Record types that are unlikely to buy SRAM based purely on status or cache let alone performance.

Like I said before, it would be stupid for SRAM, that already has a no-frills workhorse kind of rep (read your posts on XX for example) to try to compete with Shimampy for a slice of the preening peacock/dentist/banker market, a tiny niche that is already saturated with gimmicky crap that would require a lot of investment to even start getting competitive in.

Come on guy, brain it out a little.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> And BMC switched from Campy to Shimano this season because of DI2


No they didn't. Campagnolo decided to insist on compliance with their requirement that teams use groups & wheels (Campagnolo or Fulcrum) for 2011. BMC had an existing deal to use Easton so no go with Campagnolo.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I bet a lot of you on here already know about this, but Here is a neat bikerumor review on ultegra di2 with an overview on how to diagnose why your bike isn't shifting using a neat little PC based application.

Looking forward to carrying my laptop with me on rides in case I get a "shifting fault".


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

foto said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> SRAM is not a luxury bicycle components boutique. Their big inroads in the road market are "competitively priced" parts that "work well" (your words, by the way) for mid-range OEM, and aftermarket kits for enthusiasts and amateur racers that are paying their own way. They are taking business from Shimano in the Tiagra/105 customer range. Not so much the Dura Ace/Super Record types that are unlikely to buy SRAM based purely on status or cache let alone performance.
> 
> ...


So the point you are making is- no way will SRAM do an electric road group? I wouldn't be so sure. Have you ridden Di2, it works good.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> No they didn't. Campagnolo decided to insist on compliance with their requirement that teams use groups & wheels (Campagnolo or Fulcrum) for 2011. BMC had an existing deal to use Easton so no go with Campagnolo.


The wheel issue was part of the reason (and why they lost Liquigas as well), but BMC was interested in electronic shifting and in conjunction with their wheel commitment going to Easton caused the split.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> SRAM is not a luxury bicycle components boutique. Their big inroads in the road market are "competitively priced" parts that "work well" (your words, by the way) for mid-range OEM, and aftermarket kits for enthusiasts and amateur racers that are paying their own way. They are taking business from Shimano in the Tiagra/105 customer range. Not so much the Dura Ace/Super Record types that are unlikely to buy SRAM based purely on status or cache let alone performance.
> 
> ...


I've brained it enough, obviously you miss the entire racing slant of electronic shifting. Just as Ferrari builds production cars to fund F1 racing, electronic shifting is the pinnacle of racing equipment for cycling. And racing does drive sales otherwise why fund it? Armstrong's dominance in the Tour certainly helped Trek did it not?

Also you misinterpret what I said about XX, it is SRAM's high end mtb group and was brought out to hit Shimano head on (2x cranksets, shorter crank spindles, 10 speeds, etc). What I was iterating that while it worked well I didn't believe it was superior to XTR 980 now but it offered options that 970 XTR did not and forced Shimano to respond. Contrary to what you seem to think, SRAM is in this for development of high end product that they trickle through to lower end groups in ensuing years...

I'm done arguing with you though, I can tell you know it all Cliff (Claven).


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Mr. Scary said:


> I've brained it enough, obviously you miss the entire racing slant of electronic shifting. Just as Ferrari builds production cars to fund F1 racing, electronic shifting is the pinnacle of racing equipment for cycling. And racing does drive sales otherwise why fund it? Armstrong's dominance in the Tour certainly helped Trek did it not?
> 
> Also you misinterpret what I said about XX, it is SRAM's high end mtb group and was brought out to hit Shimano head on (2x cranksets, shorter crank spindles, 10 speeds, etc). What I was iterating that while it worked well I didn't believe it was superior to XTR 980 now but it offered options that 970 XTR did not and forced Shimano to respond. Contrary to what you seem to think, SRAM is in this for development of high end product that they trickle through to lower end groups in ensuing years...
> 
> I'm done arguing with you though, I can tell you know it all Cliff (Claven).


Dont't confuse Foto with the facts. So SRAM did not develop and wants to sell RED to compete with DA and RECORD?

These are the same curmudgeons whose ancestors complained about the combustion engine over horse and buggies and now Hybrid, Electrical, and Hydrogen engines.

Technology always moves us forward. I am sure when Gentullio (Tullio) Campagnolo gave us the modern RD, complained about that too, saying one gear was enough for real men. :thumbsup:


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## peabody (Oct 17, 2005)

foto said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> SRAM is not a luxury bicycle components boutique. Their big inroads in the road market are "competitively priced" parts that "work well" (your words, by the way) for mid-range OEM, and aftermarket kits for enthusiasts and amateur racers that are paying their own way. They are taking business from Shimano in the Tiagra/105 customer range. Not so much the Dura Ace/Super Record types that are unlikely to buy SRAM based purely on status or cache let alone performance.
> 
> ...


you really are clueless, fact is electronic shifting and disc brakes are coming, you may not be able to afford them but that is the future. you really think sram isn't going to develop this and just stick to competing with tiagra? you think red just competes with tiagra now, and record/da are in their own little world.....some people are really dumb


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Mr. Scary said:


> And BMC switched from Campy to Shimano this season because of Di2 (Movistar had the exclusive contract for Campy EPS in 2011), I think there was a guy on BMC that did pretty good at a big race, I'm not sure but seems to me I remember something like that...
> 
> Electronic shifting is not necessarily any better, but it is the future and it is what's being invested in and developed by two of the three component makers. It's not going to get filed in the trash can anytime soon. Electric cars and hybrid cars do not represent large volumes for the automotive industry today either but they still represent various technologies that will lessen the need for the internal combustion engine (with the Chevy Volt a three cylinder engine acts only as a generator for the battery, it doesn't power the wheels). The Tesla vehicles don't have a combustion engine at all, but I suppose the Luddites here will tell the Tesla investors they don't know what they are doing since the cars are expensive blah, blah, blah?


People who don't want electronic shifting won't buy it in any iteration, from any manufacturer. 

It's not the future, and I'll tell you why: it will never replace cable operated shifting. Do you honestly see Shimano and Campy stopping production of their cable operated groups?

Electric cars will become more mainstream as the cost of fuel rises and environmental concerns continue to plague us. Last I checked, fuel was not a requirement for a bike (except a burger for the rider) and electronic shifting is not a pre-requisite to minimize the environmental impact of riding a bike. Actually, it will cause more environmental impact due to the electricity needed to charge the batteries, so one could argue electronic shifters on a bike make it less environmentally friendly. 

Actually...that's more a PO topic, so let's not go there.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Again, please stay on topic, Personal insults are not help to your argument, and will get you an infraction or worse. Let work together to keep an interesting thread open. 

Thanks!


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

DIRT BOY said:


> Technology always moves us forward. I am sure when Gentullio (Tullio) Campagnolo gave us the modern RD, complained about that too, saying one gear was enough for real men. :thumbsup:


I do not think Campagnolo was first with the parallelogram RD, so I'll rephrase just to be sure:

_ I am sure when Gentullio (Tullio) Campagnolo gave us the *quick release*, [some] complained about that too, saying *wing nuts* was enough for real men. :thumbsup:_


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> People who don't want electronic shifting won't buy it in any iteration, from any manufacturer.
> 
> It's not the future, and I'll tell you why: it will never replace cable operated shifting. Do you honestly see Shimano and Campy stopping production of their cable operated groups?
> 
> ...


I see them eventually stopping mechanical cable actuation for groups like Dura Ace or Super Record level etc. That level will be the domain of electronic shifting. 

You can still buy a horse too so who needs a car?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

For all of the naysayers, I hope you are checking your heart rate via two fingers on the pulse and a mechanical stop watch while riding right? Is that a Garmin on your bike? What do you need that for, man has commenced with migratory patterns long before satellites and GPS, etc? Besides you guys are so intelligent surely you always know where you are going I suspect anyways...

And nobody has ever experienced a broken shifter cable in the field, nope that always happens at home in the workstand.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

kbwh said:


> I do not think Campagnolo was first with the parallelogram RD, so I'll rephrase just to be sure:
> 
> _ I am sure when Gentullio (Tullio) Campagnolo gave us the *quick release*, [some] complained about that too, saying *wing nuts* was enough for real men. :thumbsup:_


Both. First the QR then the RD as we know today:

History!!

Tullio Campagnolo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

And too robdamanii who THINKS he knows everything, Electric cars are NBOT going to be come mainstream strictly on fuel costs. What most people do not realize, who do you get that electricity? Fossil fuels, Coal, Nuclear, Hydro or possibly wind. And you REALLY think Power Companies are going to sit back and not stat raiser prices, maybe even higher than current fuels prices down the road? Again, for PO.

But yes, I see the top companies have ONLY electrical sifting for their tops groups, with mech for really cheap bikes or as a secondary option for mid-level groups. As its gets cheap, everyday joe on his hybrid bike, can shift smoothly, efficiently with NO MAINTENANCE like his antiquated cable system of shifting.

It's the future folks. Love it, or hate it, but get use to it.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

eh nevermind. I wish I didn't post anything. I am going to go back to truing my R-SYS. In the mean time, here is something we can all agree is totally cutting edge.


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