# Extremely weak breaking on my new Zipp 202 Firecrest clinchers, Help!



## MacLaren F1 (Apr 11, 2013)

I have a set of new Zipp 202 Firecrest’s with the stock gray pads. I love the way these wheels cut thought the air, roll uphill and of course the way they look! However, the lack of braking is downright scary!!! My two major concerns are:</SPAN>


Any gains made with these wheels on up-hills are given back with longer braking distances downhill. </SPAN>
The breaking is so week that on an emergency stop (first stop / not a hot wheel on a major downhill) the breaking distance is about twice that of my old Mavic Syrium SL’s. </SPAN>
From March 13, - April 10[SUP]th</SPAN>[/SUP] I have the following for break in……</SPAN>

Count:</SPAN>
11 Activities</SPAN>
Distance:</SPAN>
260.11 mi</SPAN>
Elevation Gain:</SPAN>
11,060 ft</SPAN>


<TBODY>

</TBODY>
Rider weight is 150 lbs. Bike is a 2010 S-Works Tarmac running 2013 Sram Red.</SPAN>

I have read many of the reviews online and every one of them has said breaking performance is right there with a typical aluminum rim, however, with the slightest drop in power in the wet. I am completely willing to suffer a small lack of wet performance (it doesn’t really rain much in Colorado anyway). 

Should I try another pad? What are my options? Am I expecting too much from a carbon wheel? Thank you.</SPAN>


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## The Nemo (Apr 8, 2012)

I have found Swissstop yellow pads work best on Zipp carbon.


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## springs (Jun 26, 2011)

If it was an emergency stop, how would you know how the braking distance compares with your old wheelset? Unless you had an emergency stop in the exact same place under the exact same conditions using the old wheels, your guess that the 202s took twice the distance seems unjustified.

I have a new set of 202s and I haven't had to make an emergency stop yet, but regular braking is indistinguishable from Al rims. I expect slightly poorer braking in extreme conditions.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Try the black Zipp carbon specific pads. Don't bother with anything else.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Give the Reynolds Cryo Blue pads a shot. People rave about them with their braking power. Second choice would be Swisstop Prince pads. They have the rep for being grabby, which might not hurt your situation.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

spookyload said:


> Give the Reynolds Cryo Blue pads a shot. People rave about them with their braking power. Second choice would be Swisstop Prince pads. They have the rep for being grabby, which might not hurt your situation.


bad advice...if you'd bothered to check the list of Zipp approved pads you'd know these aren't on it. 
i built a bike w/ Zipp 202's on wednesday and used the cork pads w/ the Red AeroLink brakes. they stopped the bike very well. i've personally used the yellow Swissstop pads and they're good as well. i have a feeling your brakes aren't set up well...are the pads hitting the rim square? are your levers set very tight? if so, loosen them up a bit and see what happens.


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## MacLaren F1 (Apr 11, 2013)

*Thanks.....*

Good call, I saw the list of approved pads and agree staying within those is worth doing. On Settup: it should be perfect as it's been done twise by one of the best shops in town (SRAM / Zipp dealer) and checked closely by me. I am close to trying the corks but I don't want to just through parts at it. Wish there was a quality source like even the brake pad manufactures which listed the level of friction each pad is designed to create. For expample: Zipp Cork - high, Swiss Stop Yellow - medium etc. 





cxwrench said:


> bad advice...if you'd bothered to check the list of Zipp approved pads you'd know these aren't on it.
> i built a bike w/ Zipp 202's on wednesday and used the cork pads w/ the Red AeroLink brakes. they stopped the bike very well. i've personally used the yellow Swissstop pads and they're good as well. i have a feeling your brakes aren't set up well...are the pads hitting the rim square? are your levers set very tight? if so, loosen them up a bit and see what happens.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

cxwrench said:


> bad advice...if you'd bothered to check the list of Zipp approved pads you'd know these aren't on it.


Really? A Reynolds product isn't on a Zipp products recommended page? What a total shocker. You will notice the only pads they have "tested" are their pads and Swisstop (wonder who makes their pads). If it doesn't void a warranty, why not use a pad that works. Do a quick google search and you will find people singing the praises of the blue pad (not made by swisstop) with Zipp rims. Lets be honest, a pad that works on one carbon rim will work on another without doing damage. People get too freaked out from irrational fear over brake pads. Companies sell the hype too by "making" their own pads and frightening consumers into buying them do to the voodoo magic "their" carbon rims having special magic powers. I use the blue pads on my Reynolds wheels because they claim the warranty is void if you don't. That is a good reason for me, but I can't see the same issue on the zipp website with warranty. It only says it "could' void the warranty.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Try Bontrager Cork Pads - I find them to be better than the Zipp Corks.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

spookyload said:


> Really? A Reynolds product isn't on a Zipp products recommended page? What a total shocker. You will notice the only pads they have "tested" are their pads and Swisstop (wonder who makes their pads). If it doesn't void a warranty, why not use a pad that works. Do a quick google search and you will find people singing the praises of the blue pad (not made by swisstop) with Zipp rims. Lets be honest, a pad that works on one carbon rim will work on another without doing damage. People get too freaked out from irrational fear over brake pads. Companies sell the hype too by "making" their own pads and frightening consumers into buying them do to the voodoo magic "their" carbon rims having special magic powers. I use the blue pads on my Reynolds wheels because they claim the warranty is void if you don't. That is a good reason for me, but I can't see the same issue on the zipp website with warranty. It only says it "could' void the warranty.


i'm guessing you don't work in the business. and that you've never made warranty claims which were denied because the wrong pads were used. it 'will' void the warranty. ask me how i know. 
i'm surprised that you insist on giving advice like this knowing what an issue brake pad compound and heat are w/ carbon clinchers. i'm sure you must be a composite engineer or something like that to be so sure of yourself after testing all of the different pads available to know that a 'pad that works on one carbon rim will work on another w/o doing damage'. 
i'm pretty sure i've seen more heat damaged carbon rims than you, and i can say w/ certainty that pads played a part in some instances. better safe (and w/ a valid warranty) than sorry.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> i'm pretty sure i've seen more heat damaged carbon rims than you, and i can say w/ certainty that pads played a part in some instances. better safe (and w/ a valid warranty) than sorry.


Heat is from the energy dissipated. Temperature is a product of the the rate of heat input, conduction paths, dissipation mechanisms, and the specific heat of the materials. As an engineer, how do you figure pad material plays into this?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

looigi said:


> Heat is from the energy dissipated. Temperature is a product of the the rate of heat input, conduction paths, dissipation mechanisms, and the specific heat of the materials. As an engineer, how do you figure pad material plays into this?


if it didn't matter why are there different pad materials? if it didn't matter all pads would be fine. i'm not saying they generate different amounts of heat, physics class taught up that given a speed, a weight and a stopping distance, the amount of heat (energy) dissipated should be the same. 
i'm saying that it's stupid to recommend pads that aren't approved by the wheel maker and that i've seen rims damaged by non-approved pads/warranty coverage denied because of the same. 
if a certain compound pad doesn't create the proper friction w/ the brake track on the rim, the brakes will have to used more to keep speed in check. if you over-use brakes, you know what happens.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

springs said:


> If it was an emergency stop, how would you know how the braking distance compares with your old wheelset? Unless you had an emergency stop in the exact same place under the exact same conditions using the old wheels, your guess that the 202s took twice the distance seems unjustified.
> 
> I have a new set of 202s and I haven't had to make an emergency stop yet, but regular braking is indistinguishable from Al rims. I expect slightly poorer braking in extreme conditions.


So are your regular stops all "exact same place under the exact same conditions"? Or, perhaps, the first paragraph is being a bit pedantic?


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

Just to add to the pad discussion. I have a pair of Edge/Enve 45 clinchers, rims from 2009. I also have a pair of Reynolds 66 clinchers, rims before they went to the Ctg brake track. I was always using Swiss Stop yellow, and I noticed the brake track would get "yellowed" by pad deposit over time and the brakes would get more and more grabby. Last year I started using Reynolds blue pads on both and I no longer have an issue with pad residue, and the braking is much more linear and predictable on both wheelsets.

For sheer stopping power, the SS yellow are awesome. But I think that power comes at a cost and that is heat into the rim.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

looigi said:


> As an engineer, how do you figure pad material plays into this?


As an engineer, I'd say heat is generated at the pad/rim interface. That heat is dissipated directly to the air, through the rim, and through the pad. The pad material is as relevant as the rim's.


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## LouisVuitton (Aug 31, 2009)

Just call up Zipp customer service and let them know that you're experiencing crappy brake performance and ask them for a couple of better recommendations that won't void their warranty. I've used Swiss Stop Yellows and Zipp stated that using them won't void my Zipp warranty. No issues with braking performance.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

It's amazing how peoples experience differ.
ive had the Firecrest 202's for a couple of months now, running the stock Zipp Platinum Evo pads with DuraAce 9000 calipers and levers on my S-works Roubaix SL4. They are truly some of the best braking I have ever felt. My other bike has DuraAce C24 or C50 wheels with Ultegra brakes and Swissstop Black or the new Blue pads. The Zipps are as good if not better than them. I ride hills all the time, love fast downhiils and am pretty hard on the brakes, Ive run them down hill at over 90kp/h into a T junction and pulled em up ok.

the only small quibble is they squeal like a bastard under heavy braking, but no problems.

i dont see any reason to use anything other than the stock recommended Zipp Platinum EVO pads, they work fine. Maybe your bike isnt set up correctly or you have some sort of contaminent on your rims???


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

I have 303s with tangente pads and super record brakes. the stopping power is unbelievable! I think its better than my Dura ace C24s which have an aluminum brake track. I have not tried them in the wet so I don't know if that will be good or not.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

Same here, Zipp 303 FC tubulars. Zipp platinum pads, breaking is very good. I use the same pads on my Deep V Taiwanese generic clinchers also, breaking is fine.

The new Zipp black (Swisstops) are supposed to be even better with stopping and heat dissipation.


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