# Wada takes on Russia



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Surprised this hasn't been posted here yet: Russian Athletes Part of State-Sponsored Doping Program, Report Finds - The New York Times
https://apple.news/AdRzRViZvRsyWqgDXAz8LcQ


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## respro100 (Jul 15, 2014)

Snow balls chance that Russia will be banned. There's a back story here. I can smell it. Just don't know what it is yet.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

When this all washes out, a bunch of Russians will be pinpointed for corrupting the system and taking bribes from athletes. A house cleaning will ensue. They will disappear, supposedly to a gulag somewhere in Siberia, but will not be seen again (and will probably never see Siberia, either).


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## doctormike (Oct 13, 2015)

This is why WADA will never be the organization that they want to be. There is a good documentary about WADA on Starz right now called Doped. No one has to use WADA and nations are not forced to be as strict at WADA wants them to be. To tell a country that they have to ban all track and field athletes and not compete in the Olympics is crazy. They wonder why they can't get funding, according to the documentary the number one funding source for WADA is Floyd Mayweather. When I read this story I thought about how the WADA president talked about the lack of funding preventing them from testing like they would like too meaning that there are probably lots of people doping and they just don't have the money to find out. It's good in theory but money beats all and that is why the NFL, NHL, MLB, MLS, ect will not participate or fund WADA. Same thing with professional sports in Europe.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

it appears they are going after the state is because their state run sports programs were corrupt with doping and their state dope testing is as well


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

doctormike said:


> This is why WADA will never be the organization that they want to be. ...


Good points!

WADA compliance is voluntary. It is fundamentally and agreement (contract) by the signatories. Typical with international agreements, when someone doesn't want to play by the rules there's really no regulatory intervention. WADA has no regulatory authority. They have to rely on the goodwill of the signatories.

The real test from this will be what the IOC does. I find it hard to believe they will actually ban Russia for Olympic competition. I suspect they will work to find some terms that look and sound good, that keeps Russia in the games.

For anyone who wants to dig deeper, you can get the full report of the Independent Commission here (all 335 pages). The Executive Summary section, particularly the summaries of the IC's Investigative Findings (page 12) and Recommendations (page 37) are eye-opening to say the least.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

...Russian athletes will continue systematically doping. It's ingrained, and has been for decades. 
That's to not absolve other athletes in other countries. But the attitude about this in Russia is just egregious. Go back and look at some of the comments coming out of them about the use of inert gas doping.
Or the stories published regarding their race walking. Etc etc.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

If Russia gets banned, my hope is that their spies will find some ammo on other countries doping programs to get even. It's hard to ban Russia if other countries are shown to also be non-compliant.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Investigative journalism stories like this are part of why I like The Guardian:

Russian anti-doping centre offers no welcome and no comment | Sport | The Guardian

I wish more outlets would say "gee instead of reading a PDF and writing about it...how about we just send someone who speaks Russian to the street address and interview people?"


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

DrSmile said:


> If Russia gets banned, my hope is that their spies will find some ammo on other countries doping programs to get even. It's hard to ban Russia if other countries are shown to also be non-compliant.


Yes, I would agree with that, if you are talking about other nations with systematic and apparently state-approved and facilitated doping. I don't know which others that would be... except China.
but if you're making a false equivalency with the US, or say, Italy, places where individuals, sports teams and coaches are involved, that's not the same thing.
Russia has a BS attitude at a state level about fair play, China does too, falsifying birth certificates for gymnasts etc etc.
But doping isn't state supported here, or at least there is no credible evidence of it.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

thumper8888 said:


> Yes, I would agree with that, if you are talking about other nations with systematic and apparently state-approved and facilitated doping. I don't know which others that would be... except China.
> but if you're making a false equivalency with the US, or say, Italy, places where individuals, sports teams and coaches are involved, that's not the same thing.
> Russia has a BS attitude at a state level about fair play, China does too, falsifying birth certificates for gymnasts etc etc.
> But doping isn't state supported here, or at least there is no credible evidence of it.


I have no idea who the other countries are. I hope Russia finds out! I certainly wouldn't put it past the US or Great Britain. When you look at the recent German soccer relevations its pretty clear national teams are involved. As to what determines a "nation's" involvement well that's obviously pointless. If it's a nationally ranked individual or team, yeah, I'd say that means the country is on the hook.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

if the Russian Lab is shut down, Russian athletes will have to test at other sites that won't toss their positives. Won't warn them of their testing dates...


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> Yes, I would agree with that, if you are talking about other nations with systematic and apparently state-approved and facilitated doping. I don't know which others that would be... except China.
> but if you're making a false equivalency with the US, or say, Italy, places where individuals, sports teams and coaches are involved, that's not the same thing.
> Russia has a BS attitude at a state level about fair play, China does too, falsifying birth certificates for gymnasts etc etc.
> But doping isn't state supported here, or at least there is no credible evidence of it.


I wouldn't bet against Jamaica doing it. I might throw in Kenya, too. Didn't it come out a year or so ago that out-of-competition testing in Jamaica was non-existent?


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

DrSmile said:


> I have no idea who the other countries are. I hope Russia finds out! I certainly wouldn't put it past the US or Great Britain. When you look at the recent German soccer relevations its pretty clear national teams are involved. As to what determines a "nation's" involvement well that's obviously pointless. If it's a nationally ranked individual or team, yeah, I'd say that means the country is on the hook.


National ranking just isn't pertinent.
The only doper in an entire nation could be its top-ranked runner.
A national soccer team is not pertinent. A nation's soccer governing body in most nations has NOTHING to do with the country's government.
You're mixing and matching logic here.
What Im talking about, and what WADA is talking about is doping that is sanctioned by a national government. That is NOT happening in the United States. It pretty clearly is happening in Russia and almost certainly is in China, North Korea etc.
I'm not buying Germany.
Jamaica and Kenya, maybe.
But the idea of Russia jumping up suddenly and acting as the moral police on this issue is ludicrous...
They pretty clearly at not being falsely accused. The evidence is overwhelming and completely in line with Russia's behavior on a host of fronts, from geopolitical to imprisoning dissidents and political opponents of its thuggish leader, to apparently assassinating journalists.

Doping on national teams, specific pro teams etc is a reasonable issue to point at but unrelated to this topic.


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## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm sympathetic, I mean how you gonna keep up with our dopers if you comply


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

thumper8888 said:


> National ranking just isn't pertinent.
> The only doper in an entire nation could be its top-ranked runner.
> A national soccer team is not pertinent. A nation's soccer governing body in most nations has NOTHING to do with the country's government.


Depends on the country. In futbol for example, smaller and poorer countries get the snot bribed out of them by FIFA. In the FIFA system every country gets the same $$ cut, large economic powerhouse countries like say US for example that $$ amounts to chump change. Smaller countries with a GDP smaller than the annual profit of Comcast (which is 90% of countries on Earth), quite the opposite.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

*IAAF provisionally suspends Russian Member Federation ARAF*

From the IAAF site:

*IAAF provisionally suspends Russian Member Federation ARAF*

_The Council of the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) has provisionally suspended the All-Russia Athletic Federation (ARAF) as an IAAF Member with immediate effect.

The decision was taken at today’s 201st IAAF Council Meeting which was held by teleconference and chaired from London by IAAF President Sebastian Coe. 
...

*CONSEQUENCES OF PROVISIONAL SUSPENSION*

- athletes, and athlete support personnel from Russia may not compete in International Competitions including World Athletics Series competitions and the Olympic Games

- Russia will not be entitled to host the 2016 World Race Walking Team Championships (Cheboksary) and 2016 World Junior Championships (Kazan)*

- that ARAF delegates the conduct of all outstanding doping cases to CAS
_


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ibericb said:


> Good points!
> 
> WADA compliance is voluntary. It is fundamentally and agreement (contract) by the signatories. Typical with international agreements, when someone doesn't want to play by the rules there's really no regulatory intervention. WADA has no regulatory authority. They have to rely on the goodwill of the signatories.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? 

If a sport wants to be in the Olympics have to sign, and follow, the WADA code. Russia's track and field team was banned from competition today. They were stripped of several events. They likely will not be in the Olympics next year. 

UCI was given a similar warning. The IOC came close to tossing cycling out of the Olympics. 

More to come with this. Russia is not the only country targeted.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

mpre53 said:


> I wouldn't bet against Jamaica doing it. I might throw in Kenya, too. Didn't it come out a year or so ago that out-of-competition testing in Jamaica was non-existent?


Jamaica was given a warning and radically changed their testing over the last 2 years. Kenya and Turkey are in serious trouble


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> What are you talking about? ...



The IC investigated only Russia, and Athletics in Russia. That's the total of it. As the IC noted in their report, _"The IC wants to make it clear that Russia is not the only country with an ineffective anti-doping program and that Athletics is not the only sport with an ineffective antidoping program, but Russia and athletics were the subject of the Terms of Reference of the IC."_ Time will tell if WADA intends to go further with more IC's

Time will also tell if Russia actually loses out on the Olympics. As reported elsewhere, Thomas Bach, president of the International Olympic Committee, _"expects Russia will comply with doping regulations in time for its athletes to compete at next year’s Rio Games ..._"

When it comes to regulatory authority, WADA itself is pretty toothless. WADA created the code that was subsequently adopted by governing bodies. It's pretty much focused on the Olympics, hence all those pro sports we know and love just ignore them, choosing not to be a signatory to WADA's code. 

The IC noted, _"WADA continues to face a recalcitrant attitude on the part of many stakeholders that it is merely a service provider and not a regulator"_

What happens following a violation is up to a governing body. WADA can't sanction or penalize anyone. As the IC also stated in their report, _The compliance responsibility does not enable WADA to issue sanctions against a party that is Code non-compliant. WADA is limited, in the event that it identifies non-compliance, to advising the responsible authority, such as the International Olympic Committee (IOC), the applicable international federation (IF) and UNESCO of such non-compliance._ 

But you know all of this, certainly better than me. So what's your real point?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ibericb said:


> The IC investigated only Russia, and Athletics in Russia. That's the total of it. As the IC noted in their report, _"The IC wants to make it clear that Russia is not the only country with an ineffective anti-doping program and that Athletics is not the only sport with an ineffective antidoping program, but Russia and athletics were the subject of the Terms of Reference of the IC."_ Time will tell if WADA intends to go further with more IC's
> 
> Time will also tell if Russia actually loses out on the Olympics. As reported elsewhere, Thomas Bach, president of the International Olympic Committee, _"expects Russia will comply with doping regulations in time for its athletes to compete at next year’s Rio Games ..._"
> 
> ...


So much wrong in this I don't know where to start

This was only part 1 of the IC report. The 2nd part is focused on an ongoing criminal investigation into corruption at the IAAF. Part 2 will be out prior to the end of the year. 

WADA is far from toothless. The rest of the world does not care about the NFL. The rest of the World cares about WADA sports. Track and field, cycling. WADA's most tested sport? Soccer. 

"What happens following a violation is up to a governing body" This is nonsense. The local ADA has to sanction based on the WADA code. If they do not WADA will take take them to CAS. If they continue to not follow the code they, like Russia, be suspended from competition. 

Reedie, the head of WADA, is toothless. But WADA still holds a lot of power in sport


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> So much wrong in this I don't know where to start


Well, since it was largely taken directly from the IC report, I'll leave it to you to explain what exactly is wrong.

The criminal investigation of the IAAF is not being conducted by WADA. All the IC did was identify those specific issues that indicate possible criminal activity, which they have reported to Interpol (WADA has no criminal jurisdiction). As noted in Part I, the IC withheld the specifics they suspect may be consistent with criminal activities so as not to be an interferent to the ensuing investigations by Interpol, and any other law enforcement agency that takes up the issue. As the IAAF has already noted, they are already doing their own vetting. It remains to be seen what Interpol, or more importantly an actual governmental law enforcement agency does.



> Reedie, the head of WADA, is toothless. But WADA still holds a lot of power in sport


WADA's power comes only from the embarrassment they can cause to the governing bodies, and now the parent nations. Their power is purely social.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ibericb said:


> Well, since it was largely taken directly from the IC report, I'll leave it to you to explain what exactly is wrong.
> 
> The criminal investigation of the IAAF is not being conducted by WADA. All the IC did was identify those specific issues that indicate possible criminal activity, which they have reported to Interpol (WADA has no criminal jurisdiction). As noted in Part I, the IC withheld the specifics they suspect may be consistent with criminal activities so as not to be an interferent to the ensuing investigations by Interpol, and any other law enforcement agency that takes up the issue. As the IAAF has already noted, they are already doing their own vetting. It remains to be seen what Interpol, or more importantly an actual governmental law enforcement agency does.
> 
> ...


With all due respect you are making no sense. 

WADA's power is more then just embarrassment. They told UCI if they did not clean up cycling they would be tossed out of the Olympics. They did the same Jamaica.....and with the IAAF and Russia.

Many of the ADA's do have law enforcement power. USADA has a slightly different structure but they haven an evidence sharing agreement with the Feds. Most European ADA's are government agencies. CONI is a great example. Because they are are a Government agency they were able to get Puerto evidence on Basso, Scarponi, and Valverde. Switzerland was able to get evidence on Ullrich. 

WADA is an integral part of the criminal investigation. Pound, and his investigators, are working daily with investigators from France, Switzerland, UK......and have now exposed some very serious corruption in Kenya. 
Kenya in the firing line as Coe faces fresh flak | The Sunday Times


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> With all due respect you are making no sense.
> 
> WADA's power is more then just embarrassment. They told UCI if they did not clean up cycling they would be tossed out of the Olympics. They did the same Jamaica.....and with the IAAF and Russia.


WADA can't toss anyone from anything. They have no authority to do so. They can recommend, but that's it.



> Many of the ADA's do have law enforcement power. USADA has a slightly different structure but they haven an evidence sharing agreement with the Feds. Most European ADA's are government agencies. CONI is a great example. Because they are are a Government agency they were able to get Puerto evidence on Basso, Scarponi, and Valverde. Switzerland was able to get evidence on Ullrich.


None of those are WADA. My comments were strictly about WADA, not any of the national ADA's.



> WADA is an integral part of the criminal investigation. Pound, and his investigators, are working daily with investigators from France, Switzerland, UK......and have now exposed some very serious corruption in Kenya.


Yeah, they're involved as information sources, just as a witness would be. They aren't the criminal investigators, and they have no legal enforcement authority in any country. They can't criminally prosecute anyone, anywhere, for anything. The most they can do is file a criminal complaint with a jurisdictional law enforcement agency.

Let's recognize WADA for what it is - a rule making body with a helluva lot of influence, but nothing more. It comes down to the governing bodies, the IOC, etc.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ibericb said:


> WADA can't toss anyone from anything. They have no authority to do so. They can recommend, but that's it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhh, good of you to admit WADA has a "Helluva lot of influence" and is not "Toothless" 

Some facts

*RADO/NADO's are delegates of WADA. To pretend that they are not connected is silly. WADA chooses who gets in and who gets kicked out
*191 countries signed the UNESCO International Convention against Doping in Sport. This agreement *legally binds* the signatories to align their laws and domestic policy with WADA. They share evidence and work closely on cases. 
* WADA has a significant investigative group, as do it's affiliates. It is one of their primary mandates. They work closely with domestic and international law enforcement. 
* Do you really think if WADA recommends that a sport be tossed from the Olympics that the IOC will ignore them? Really? In today's environment? Cycling and Weightlifting have come close several times because of their lack of compliance.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Ahhh, good of you to admit WADA has a "Helluva lot of influence" and is not "Toothless"


My toothless characterization was regarding WADA's ability to directly penalize. Obviously they have a lot of influence. But that is the extent of their "power". That was the point from the beginning, which should have been amply clear.



> * Do you really think if WADA recommends that a sport be tossed from the Olympics that the IOC will ignore them? Really? Cycling and Weightlifting have come close several times because of their lack of compliance.


No, I suspect that any country that wants to appear as if they are doing the right thing, by a collection of international contractual agreements (nothing necessarily criminal), will seek to at least appear to be compliant with WADA's rules and standards. Some have taken it fairly seriously, others not so much (yet).

WADA is fundamentally a standards organization, and their power comes from governing bodies adopting and enforcing those standards. WADA's true power emanates from their ability to make any program appear to be a sham. In the world of international athletic competition that, no doubt, can be hugely important (mostly because of the money involved). 

An interesting question to ponder is, what if professional cycling or football (soccer) stood apart from UCI or FIFA, respectively, and formed their own governing bodies (a la the NFL, NBA or MLBA), developed their own rules, enforced them entirely on their own, and told WADA to pack sand? Would the sports have any less appeal or be worth less financially? Seems to me there is a Russian who has been promoting that very idea for cycling at least. The problem is the number of countries/teams that would need to agree to such a radical move. But it illustrates the point - compliance is only by contractual agreement, and the desire for the appearance of legitimacy.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ibericb said:


> An interesting question to ponder is, what if professional cycling or football (soccer) stood apart from UCI or FIFA, respectively, and formed their own governing bodies (a la the NFL, NBA or MLBA), developed their own rules, enforced them entirely on their own, and told WADA to pack sand?


The answer to this is simple. Those sports would be tossed out of the Olympics. Do you really think they would risk that? Before you attempt to diminish cycling and the Olympics remember 2012 road cycling had

"the biggest crowd for a single sporting event anywhere in the world."

London 2012 Olympic crowd 'biggest ever' | UK | News | Daily Express

Despite some of the highest ticket prices of the games track cycling was packed


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> The answer to this is simple. Those sports would be tossed out of the Olympics. Do you really think they would risk that? Before you attempt to diminish cycling and the Olympics remember 2012 road cycling had
> 
> "the biggest crowd for a single sporting event anywhere in the world."
> 
> ...


Not necessarily tossed. There can be the pro-version competing outside the purview of the governing bodies tied to the Olympics, and then the Olympic version. Basketball has both. The principle is simple - separate the pro competitive stuff from the Olympic-related competition.

Pro road racing could exist well outside of the UCI (and other similar governing bodies), and the UCI, et al can continue to regulate other events, including that leading to the Olympics.

Both can coexist. The governing bodies and their leaders, however, would fight it tooth and nail as it would put a huge dent in their coffers. Probably more than a few conflicts of interest in that milieu.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ibericb said:


> Not necessarily tossed. There can be the pro-version competing outside the purview of the governing bodies tied to the Olympics, and then the Olympic version. Basketball has both. The principle is simple - separate the pro competitive stuff from the Olympic-related competition.
> 
> Pro road racing could exist well outside of the UCI (and other similar governing bodies), and the UCI, et al can continue to regulate other events, including that leading to the Olympics.
> 
> Both can coexist. The governing bodies and their leaders, however, would fight it tooth and nail as it would put a huge dent in their coffers. Probably more than a few conflicts of interest in that milieu.


This makes no sense. 

The largest revenue stream for the UCI comes from two events. The Pro road world Championships and the Olympics. No way the UCI is giving that up. 66% of the UCI's annual budget comes from Worlds. Why would they give that up?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> ...No way the UCI is giving that up. 66% of the UCI's annual budget comes from Worlds. Why would they give that up?


That was my point. In the end it's about the money.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ibericb said:


> That was my point. In the end it's about the money.


?????

How/why would Pro Cycling abandon the Olympics if there is so much money in it? 

Far from being toothless WADA is the gatekeeper to the Olympics. If you do not follow the WADA code you cannot get into the games. 

The consensus in international sport is not that WADA is "Toothless" but the exactly opposite. Many think they have gotten too powerful. Craig Reedie was put in place in attempt to turn them into more of an administrator.......but this was ruined by the excellent work of the media


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