# Serotta & Enve forks 43mm vs 50mm rake. How will handling be affected?



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I would like to know how a bike would handle if going from a fork with 43mm rake to a fork with 50mm rake.

Headtube angle of bike is 73 degrees.

Both forks are full carbon. One is a Serrotta F3 fork with 43mm rake. The other is an Enve 2.0 fork with 50mm rake. The Serrotta is weaved carbon while the Envi is unidirectional, and according to specs, the Enve is something like 20-30 grams lighter (which I really don't about the weight saving here). Don't know how much of a difference in handling is affect by weave vs. unidirectional.

I've done some internet research and so far here's what I'm reading:

- longer rake will make the bike more stable on fast highspeed straightline descents, but slower steering around corners

- longer rake will also mean when you ride no handed, the front wheel will tend to be more wobbly (makes sense because you know have less weight pushing down on the front due to the longer rake)

- for most people, a 5mm difference in rake usually will not translate to much real world difference on their actual ride. However, I'm not most people because I love to go fast on the down, and in my case it is a 7mm difference in rake. So maybe at 7mm delta, the difference will be pronounced?


Currently, the bike is a Serotta with the Serotta fork with 43mm rake. While I'm quite happy with the handling of the bike around corners and sweepers, there are times when I do wish for a bit of a longer wheelbase for that flat out straightline high speed descents. The range of speed I'm talking about is 45 - 55 mph, straightline descent. While my current setup does not give me any problem, no head wobbles, no head shake of any kind.. I'm just wondering if I would stand to gain any benefits with a longer raked fork? without sacrificing too much crispiness around those sweepers.

Please chime in. Your opinions and experience are wanted.


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## Nater (Feb 7, 2003)

Your conclusions are the opposite of what will happen, except your statement about it being harder to ride no handed. More offset will make it harder to ride in a straight line no handed.

The longer fork offset (rake) will reduce trail and make the bike less stable...the bike will want to dive into turns sooner. Assuming everything else stays the same. 

Is the axle-to-crown length the same between forks?


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Bike fork rake is not the same as motorcycle fork rake (which in bicycle terms would be 90 - head tube angle).

Bike fork rake is really fork offset, and more means less trail and less self-centering force.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Nater said:


> Your conclusions are the opposite of what will happen, except your statement about it being harder to ride no handed. More offset will make it harder to ride in a straight line no handed.
> 
> The longer fork offset (rake) will reduce trail and make the bike less stable...the bike will want to dive into turns sooner. Assuming everything else stays the same.
> 
> Is the axle-to-crown length the same between forks?


This is right.

73 degree head tube with 50mm of rake will make for an extremely twitchy bike. I have that exact Enve fork, with 71.5 degree heat tube angle. It's got a trail of 53mm. It's super fast handling and zips beautifully around corners. But that handling is not for everyone. A frame built for that should have a pretty big BB drop, 73-75mm to lower center of gravity and make it more stable.

As a comparison, most grand tour type bikes and many racing bikes have a trail of 66 to 70mm for stability. Racers like to be able to ride no-hands to do stuff like remove jackets, open bars, etc. You need a higher trail number to support that, but if you go too much trail, cornering gets pretty bad.

I don't know that I'd want any more than 46mm of rake with a 73 degree HT angle.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

The differences between 43 and 50mm will be HUGE. Don't do it.

I was hit by a car years ago and had the entire front end of my bike rebuilt, from the seat tube forward. I didn't like the steering as it was hard to turn so, knowing the existing specs, I asked him to change the front end to 73 degrees with a 50mm rake (25mm tires).

The bike felt like it was on a caffeine binge. The front wheel felt as if I was riding on ice and the bike fought me in turns. That's the Cliff's notes version.

I called the builder fully expecting to buy a new fork with less rake. Instead, he took the fork and merely bent the blades, removing 5mm of rake and increasing the trail to a more normal figure. The builder said any more than 5mm of tweaking and he'd have to build a new fork.

What a change! The bike rode like virtually any run of the mill bike out there; just all around pleasant.

Learn from my mistake!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't know if the axel-crown are the same.

However, after reading the replies in here, I think I will just stick with my current setup. If it ain't broke...

Thanks for the replies guys.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I like to be able to ride "no-handed" and have one frame on which that was impossible with a 43mm rake fork. When I switched to a fork with 40mm (both Ouzo Pro), then "hands off" became possible.

So in the right circumstances even a 3mm change can make a noticeable difference.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> I don't know if the axel-crown are the same.
> 
> However, after reading the replies in here, I think I will just stick with my current setup. If it ain't broke...
> 
> Thanks for the replies guys.


Wise decision. Plus, those Serrotta forks are nice. I wish they stll made them. I've been looking for a 1" carbon fork for several months. Wound Up makes them, but only in 45 and 40 rake, and I need a 43. I almost got the 45, but the guy at my LSB who does fitting advised me not to. He said even 2mm would make a difference.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

pmf said:


> Wise decision. Plus, those Serrotta forks are nice. I wish they stll made them. I've been looking for a 1" carbon fork for several months. Wound Up makes them, but only in 45 and 40 rake, and I need a 43. I almost got the 45, but the guy at my LSB who does fitting advised me not to. He said even 2mm would make a difference.


Serotta still makes their forks, both in 1" and 1 1/8" in a wide variety of rakes and configurations.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

DaveT said:


> Serotta still makes their forks, both in 1" and 1 1/8" in a wide variety of rakes and configurations.


You sure about that? Last tiem I checked, it looked like they were out of business. I tired e-mailing them about buying one proir to that and got no response. Know where I can find one?


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

pmf said:


> You sure about that? Last tiem I checked, it looked like they were out of business. I tired e-mailing them about buying one proir to that and got no response. Know where I can find one?


I'm absolutely sure. I had a custom bike built not too long ago and specified a Serotta fork for it. Got it no issues.

During the last year or so, Serotta has been undergoing changes and has been re-organized. They're back now and seemingly as good as new. I'd suggest you contact them: [email protected] and see what they have to say about their fork availability. The forks are made at Serotta's carbon facility in Poway, California. The forks aren't cheap but they are extraordinarily good.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Yeah Serotta has been undergoing reorganization. They now have some big partner. Customer Service is slipping a bit during the transition but Ben Serotta himself has acknowledge this on his blog and they're working to get back on track with customer service.

I have the Meivici model with the F3 carbon fork in the stiffest layup (I think Serotta calls it 6.7 layup, or is it 7.7 layup?). And I have to say the clear coating on their frames and forks make the carbon weave pop out ala 3D when in sunlight! My friend who also recently purchased a totally custom "money is no object" frame & fork from Serotta, and he went with the matte carbon (because he wanted save a few grams).. and now whenever we put our bikes side by side, he wishes he had gotten the clear coating too.

The main reason I was asking about the Enve was because I wanted to see how a fork with a different 50mm rake would feel. But after reading the replies in here, it would be a big mistake for me to go to the Enve both performance wise and definitely aesthetic wise.


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