# Titanium frames



## tele (Mar 10, 2005)

I have searched and couldn't find a suitable answer: 
opinions on frames such as Sibex or Soul for about $1300 vs. Dean/Merlin frames for $2000.

Are the less costly frames risky?
thanks for the input


----------



## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

If you're trying to find a bargain, look at Habanero. Lot's of Hab lovers and the price is right.

http://www.habcycles.com/


----------



## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

If you ride a 58, Excel sports has the Sampson frames on sale. Otherwise the Habanero and Sibex are good values.


----------



## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

lynsky all over for 1600


----------



## shinsplints (Oct 24, 2007)

Hey tele,

I think that, like other materials, there is a difference among the different builders. As many other posters will write, geometry will affect the ride characteristics. Also, the quality of welds has an impact -- not sure how exactly, but I know that a beautiful weld is more than just craftmanship, it's art. And, I haven't seen Sibex or Soul welds, but I've seen Dean, Merlin, Lemond, and a local house brand welds, and there was an aesthetic difference. 

BTW, I PM'd you as I have a Dean-welded frame for sale if you're interested.


----------



## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

if you're in a rush avoid the dean


----------



## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Sierra Trading Post has a couple of Lynskey frames. You should be able to find a coupon to lower the prices even more.

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/...-Bike-Frame-with-Alpha-Q-Grand-Tour-Fork.html

[Edit: Use ADMYCOUPONS8 to bring the price down to $1742.]


----------



## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

its the same as any other material, steel bikes range from lower end everyday beaters to top of the line custom. sizing is the most important thing and then comes budget. good luck.


----------



## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

jorgy said:


> Sierra Trading Post has a couple of Lynskey frames. You should be able to find a coupon to lower the prices even more.
> 
> http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/...-Bike-Frame-with-Alpha-Q-Grand-Tour-Fork.html
> 
> [Edit: Use ADMYCOUPONS8 to bring the price down to $1742.]




the usually exclude bikes from coupon


----------



## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

FatTireFred said:


> the usually exclude bikes from coupon


Not from this one. I added it to my cart then entered the coupon, which brought the price down to $1742. I wouldn't have posted it if it excluded bikes (like a current 25% off one).

I had one that was good only yesterday for 20% off any single item, and it worked for anything.


----------



## tele (Mar 10, 2005)

do you all think the Lynskey R120 is a good fit for my "style"? 
I am 5'7" and almost 160. I usually ride 25-100 miles during weekends and summer, and also would use the bike for commuting to work about 20 miles round trip for most of the year.
input?


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

tele said:


> do you all think the Lynskey R120 is a good fit for my "style"?
> I am 5'7" and almost 160. I usually ride 25-100 miles during weekends and summer, and also would use the bike for commuting to work about 20 miles round trip for most of the year.
> input?


Sounds like a pretty good match. 

Bikes like Soul, Sibex, Habenero, etc, will be fine bikes, likely. They'll tend to be a bit heavier - the difference in price is essentially the labor for butting and shaping tubes to eke out the last few percentage points of stiffness/weight ratio.

Just to risk the flames, check out the titanium bikes over at BikesDirect. The Ti Fantom Cross might could be an interesting choice for a commuter / weekend bike.


----------



## tele (Mar 10, 2005)

i just saw performance has a ti frame from Lynskey for $1499 before any coupons. They are out of stock right now, anyone know about them?


----------



## NealH (May 2, 2004)

If you can ride a "ML" size, Lynskey will sell you an R320 with fork for $1849. 

http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a/pages/hot-deals/08-r320.php

Now that's a deal.


----------



## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

I have a Soul. Really nice bike. Sean was great to deal with. Fits me like a glove, granted it was custom made for me, so it should. The welds, fit and finish are top notch compared to other ti frames I've seen up close from the likes of Merlin/Litespeed/etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the Soul stuff is made in the same factory as some of the other big names in Ti. Believe my frame came from Taiwan.


----------



## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Fully equipped used Merlins have been very inexpensive on eBay lately.

Have no idea why. Maybe their name recognition has decreased over the last few years.

Anyway you could get a Merlin bike, sell all the parts and wheels on eBay, and your net cost would be very low.

It's not like ti frames are going to wear out.


----------



## Roadplay (Jan 2, 2007)

I picked up a never used 2006 Merlin CR Works frame and fork for just under $1,100 on eBay. I had watched for TI frames in my size for a couple months. I thought it was a good deal. Anyway, watch eBay and bid often, sometimes they go cheap.

Good Luck.


----------



## tele (Mar 10, 2005)

that sounds like a great deal. I am hoping things start showing up more often with the state of the economy and all that, we will see.


----------



## hoehnt (Nov 7, 2008)

whats better Merlin or litespeed?


----------



## Roadplay (Jan 2, 2007)

Merlin is made by Litespeed, but I haven't owned both brands, so I couldn't tell you. I would guess if you compared like geometries and like material composition there wouldn't be much difference. Sometimes brand name alone can bring more sales/profit for the manufactures.


----------



## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

hoehnt said:


> whats better Merlin or litespeed?


Roark (made outside of Indianapolis) makes some great Ti frames. Completely custom and beautiful workmanship.

http://www.roarkcycle.com/


----------



## wdtpga (Jun 21, 2007)

Both frames are welded in the same shop by the same welders. Go figure.


----------



## cyclust (Sep 8, 2004)

MerlinAma said:


> Fully equipped used Merlins have been very inexpensive on eBay lately.
> 
> Have no idea why. Maybe their name recognition has decreased over the last few years.
> 
> ...


Ti bikes are a real bargain on ebay these days. With carbon being all the rage, ti just dosen't get much respect. A ti bike that sold for $5000 several years ago can often be had for $1000-$1500 these days. And even if the frame is a little banged up, an hour with a scotchbrite pad and some new decals will have it looking showroom new.


----------



## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

cyclust said:


> Ti bikes are a real bargain on ebay these days. With carbon being all the rage, ti just dosen't get much respect. A ti bike that sold for $5000 several years ago can often be had for $1000-$1500 these days. And even if the frame is a little banged up, an hour with a scotchbrite pad and some new decals will have it looking showroom new.


IMO, this is true... a GREAT deal can be found on ebay for a high end ti bike... This summer I found and bought a seven 2005 odonata w/full campy record for 2,500, even has some token carbon! http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=146273

It is just a matter of waiting and finding your size. 

Ti bike are nice, they ride great and last and last..... I would still be riding my 10+ year old merlin (actually I am it is a dedicated trainer bike now) but it was damaged in a car/bike collision.


----------



## smudge (Feb 8, 2005)

shinsplints said:


> Hey tele,
> ... Also, the quality of welds has an impact -- not sure how exactly, but I know that a beautiful weld is more than just craftmanship, it's art. And, I haven't seen Sibex or Soul welds, but I've seen Dean, Merlin, Lemond, and a local house brand welds, and there was an aesthetic difference. ...


Just to stop the spread of misinformation...

The aesthetics of the welds don't make a darn bit of difference in the ride quality of the frame. The QUALITY of the welds is what's going to determine the longevity of the frame. By QUALITY I mean that the weld has proper penetration (possibly including a root pass), a proper fillet, no undercut and was purged correctly inside and out. If one of those wasn't done correctly, you won't notice it in the feel of the ride, but you will take notice sometime in the future when you're sliding on the asphalt.

Anyone who knows what they're looking for can see if the weld is undercut or not, but you're NOT going to see if it has penetrated properly or if there are any voids in the fillet. Exterior contamination can be cleaned up so if you're buying a ti bike and have an opportunity to look inside the BB shell, head tube and seat tube, look for blue or purple discoloration inside. If you see it, pass on the frame.


----------



## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

tele said:


> I have searched and couldn't find a suitable answer:
> opinions on frames such as Sibex or Soul for about $1300 vs. Dean/Merlin frames for $2000.
> 
> Are the less costly frames risky?
> thanks for the input


The biggest difference between budget titanium frames and the fancy pants ti frames is country of origin. Sibex is built in Russia by a reputable company that produces ti frames for many European brands. Soul and many other budget ti frames are built in China or Taiwan. There is often no or little quality difference between brands of ti frames. You just can't cut corners when you build a ti frame.


----------



## tidi (Jan 11, 2008)

i know this is an old thread but i'm wanting a stiff ti frame. can anyone recomend something that isn't a noodle. So far the dean el diente has my attention due to big ti tubes but help appreciated.
regards


----------



## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

tidi said:


> i know this is an old thread but i'm wanting a stiff ti frame. can anyone recomend something that isn't a noodle. So far the dean el diente has my attention due to big ti tubes but help appreciated.
> regards


Lynskey Helix?

I also wanted to add it is necessarily about the material the frame uses, but how it is designed. You can have a super stiff ti bike or a flexy alu bike, etc. it isn't a function of the material. Especially when you get into custom spec.


----------



## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

tidi said:


> i know this is an old thread but i'm wanting a stiff ti frame. can anyone recomend something that isn't a noodle. So far the dean el diente has my attention due to big ti tubes but help appreciated.
> regards


FYI, tread carefully http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=595629&highlight=dean


----------



## 6-Speed (Sep 9, 2010)

I wanted a Merlin Cyrene frame a few years back, but did not want to pay full price, so I waited for Excel's end of year clearance sale (in Oct) and picked one up for a substantial discount. I am very happy with the frame.


----------



## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

FatTireFred said:


> JUST PLAIN avoid the dean


fixed it for you FTF!


----------



## jaimemmm (Apr 17, 2007)

HELIX IS JUST A MAKETING PLOY. i HAVE HAD BOTH LITESPEED AND MERLIN. MERLIN IS THE WAY TO GO. i AGREE THAT TI IS THE BEST BARGAIN AT E-BAY. People only buy carbon because it is cheaper. But little do they know ti is going at a great price. I got a merlin cyrene for 850.00 brand new at e-bay. regualar 2,300.00. carbon is poor man ti. good luck with longivity If you are concered about wheight just take a good dump in the morning. Weight weenies would do better just to loose wieght than pay hundeds to lessen the weight of the bike. It would also cost less.


----------



## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

I wouldn't touch a used carbon frame, but a properly built ti frame should last several lifetimes. I bought my Merckx AX ti about 5 years ago and I've ridden probably 15,000 miles on it. I am the third owner of the frame, so who knows how many miles are on it, but it still looks like new. BTW, I got my Merckx ti for $500 for the frame, fork and headset -- best deal I ever got.


----------



## smoo (Sep 20, 2007)

Have a look at the Enigma Excel - full 6Al-4V titanium. Th tubes are narrower than in Enigma's own 3Al-2.5V frames but apparently the power transfer is better.

http://www.enigmabikes.com/excel.html


----------



## carveitup (Oct 25, 2008)

My wife has an Enigma (custom) and really likes it. I think the latest issue of Cycling Plus has a review of some Ti bikes. It may not be on newsstands yet.


----------



## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Lynskey Helix OS has been the best frame I've ever owned in 25 years of racing and now just riding. I've tried Litespeeds, Merlins, and have owned some top carbon frames from Look and BMC and the Lynskey trumps them all in my opinion. I haven't tried the Moots RSL but that frame gets great reviews.

There are a lot of great frames out there in both carbon and ti but the Lynskey works for me. I purchased an early standard Helix a couple of years ago because the frame was discounted and didn't really expect much from the helix tubing but it really works and the OS version is super stiff. 

Demo a Helix before discounting the frame as a marketing ploy and then decide.


----------



## spastook (Nov 30, 2007)

I've owned both a Litespeed and a Merlin Extralight. The Merlin is a better product however mine is an older Merlin from the Massachusetts facility. Can't say if it makes much difference seeing how they both come from the same plant these days. As far as materials go I currently have 4 road bikes. Steel,Aluminum, Titanium and Carbon. All top of the line bikes similar high end components. They're kind of like my kids, I love them all but for different reasons. The steel bikes a tad heavy but just floats over the rough stuff and the aluminum one is mega light and stiff enough to loosen fillings. The titanium and carbon ones fall somewhere in the middle. They are ALL good materials just slightly different.


----------



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I will second what TerryB said. Habanero. I have their cross frame and it is unbelievable. $995 for their road frame, and a 1/2 price crash replacement plan is free. You can even get custom geometry for only $300 more. Small shop with three guys, and they will remember your name when you call back.


----------



## Sir Francis (Aug 26, 2010)

havent read much of the Moots RSL on here, or Moots for that matter. ill be receiving the RSL in about 6 weeks - CANT WAIT!!! for what a merlin, litespeed and other brands cost i feel that in few years time a moots will hold the most value. i guess that is for a good reason.

id like to get some opinions, comments on this.


----------



## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Congrats on the RSL, it has received some great reviews.

As to a Moots (or any bike for that matter) "holding its value," good luck on that.


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Sir Francis said:


> havent read much of the Moots RSL on here, or Moots for that matter. ill be receiving the RSL in about 6 weeks - CANT WAIT!!! for what a merlin, litespeed and other brands cost i feel that in few years time a moots will hold the most value. i guess that is for a good reason.
> 
> id like to get some opinions, comments on this.


Love my Moots.
Owned it longer than any bike I have ever owned (and I have been through a few):


----------



## Ohm (Dec 14, 2009)

Can anybody say why Moots is The titanium frame nowadays? There are several companies making extremely good looking frames from what I have seen. Merlin was The company once and I still think so - have nothing to do with my own Extralight of course...
Nevermind Merlin which have nearly died but why is Moots the greatest nowadays?


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

I would not say Moots is THE buuilder.
Blacksheep, Baum, Strong, Kish and Form (and many others) all make some quality stuff too.
Baum is the ONLY one of these that I would swap my Moots for though.


----------



## tidi (Jan 11, 2008)

i've ordered a Lynskey Cooper. excellent price from crc with the clover dropouts in a ml size. i can't wait for it.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

wdtpga said:


> Both frames are welded in the same shop by the same welders. Go figure.



You would be shocked at how many people feel the quality of a frame is somehow related to the decalstuck on it.


----------



## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

Here on the other side of the Atlantic (Europe), I'd definitely look at Qoroz and Vannicholas for Titanium that does not break the bank. On a more generous budget, there's too many to list...


----------



## campyhag (Feb 4, 2004)

FTR said:


> I would not say Moots is THE buuilder.
> Blacksheep, Baum, Strong, Kish and Form (and many others) all make some quality stuff too.
> Baum is the ONLY one of these that I would swap my Moots for though.



+1


----------



## Ohm (Dec 14, 2009)

It looks nice but 95% of that is because of the white paint... 

It would be very nice to have the actual dimensions of the tubes in order to be able to compare frames. As of now it is very hard to get a grip on the stiffnes of the frame. 
Factory bought tube dimension can't be that many but quite a few add their own machining into the equation.


----------



## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Ohm said:


> It looks nice but 95% of that is because of the white paint...
> 
> It would be very nice to have the actual dimensions of the tubes in order to be able to compare frames. As of now it is very hard to get a grip on the stiffnes of the frame.
> Factory bought tube dimension can't be that many but quite a few add their own machining into the equation.


Ummm, having seen a number of Baum's, I can assure you it could be plain ti and it would be gorgeous.
As I said, I have a Moots Compact and would give it up for a Baum.


----------



## jayp (Sep 19, 2010)

tidi said:


> i've ordered a Lynskey Cooper. excellent price from crc with the clover dropouts in a ml size. i can't wait for it.


I don't think you'll regret your decision. I had the same concern about titanium being too flexy, but have ridden a Lynskey R230 for the past couple of months and like it a lot. As a 200 lb rider with an XL sized frame who likes to climb rolling hills by mashing on the pedals in the middle gears while standing, I can tell you that the frame does not flex appeciably or steal energy. Power transfer seems efficient. Ride quality is firm, with some firm springiness in the vertical direction when going over bumps, but that's what the R230 model is designed to do with its curved seat stays. The Cooper should be stiffer than my R230, as it has straight seat stays, especially in a ML size vs. my XL. 

I suspect that titanium's reputation for being flexy came about from some low budget models or inexperienced builders who used round tubing without shaping it. I'm not familiar with other companies, but Lynskey works the tubes into oval, diamond, or helix shapes (depending on the model). This increases structural rigidity due to the shape, but also I think the act of working the metal probably makes the metal stiffer.


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

Ohm said:


> It would be very nice to have the actual dimensions of the tubes in order to be able to compare frames. As of now it is very hard to get a grip on the stiffnes of the frame.
> Factory bought tube dimension can't be that many but quite a few add their own machining into the equation.


Darren Baum will make the frame with tube diameters to suit you and your requirements, including butting* each tube as required. When I was there last year I saw frames with tubes from 32 to 44mm OD** and from 0.4 to 0.9 mm wall thickness.

I spent a fair bit of time talking to Darren last year about doing something very specific for me. In the end I couldn't afford to have him do what I wanted but I walked away very impressed by his attention to detail and the extraordinary craftsmanship that goes into his frames.

* With one exception I know of, "butted" Ti tubes are actually externally ground after the tubing is drawn.

** within a small error percentage, the stiffness of a metal frame is given by the product of the mass and the square of the tubing diameter.


----------



## Ohm (Dec 14, 2009)

You are sure about 'square to the diameter'?
I remember the stiffness being proportional to the diameter raised to the power of 4 and the strength proportional to the diameter raised to the power of 3 - the stiffness incresing more than the strength with increased diameter. I could (probably is) wrong as its a long time since studying such things.

I will hold on to my Extralight (internal butting) but will look into the Baum.


----------



## dgeesaman (Jun 9, 2010)

jayp said:


> I'm not familiar with other companies, but Lynskey works the tubes into oval, diamond, or helix shapes (depending on the model). This increases structural rigidity due to the shape, but also I think the act of working the metal probably makes the metal stiffer.


Technically speaking, working the metal makes it stronger and the shape makes the structure more rigid, but the metal itself cannot be made stiffer.

David


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

Ohm said:


> You are sure about 'square to the diameter'?
> I remember the stiffness being proportional to the diameter raised to the power of 4 and the strength proportional to the diameter raised to the power of 3 - the stiffness incresing more than the strength with increased diameter. I could (probably is) wrong as its a long time since studying such things.


I said that it was proportional to the mass times the square of the diameter, not simply to the square of the diameter.

Stiffness increases as the fourth power of diameter if all proportions remain constant. Under these conditions the mass will increase as the square of the diameter. Dividing one by the other, the stiffness per unit mass increases as the square of the diameter. Overall stiffness is stiffness per unit mass x mass so it is proportional to diameter squared x mass.

Similarly the strength per unit mass increases proportionally with diameter, so overall strength is proportional to mass x diameter.*

These are approximations assuming that the ratios between different tube diameters remains constant but the errors are actually fairly small. The approximation doesn't include "shaped" tubes but you can simply assume that a shaped tube will be weaker and less stiff than the equivalent round tube, marketing <i> merde</i> notwithstanding.

* this assumption assumes that you don't fall foul of the "beer can law" - for mass to remain constant the wall thickness must decrease as the tube diameter increases, so the ratio between them reduces with the square of the diameter. As the ratio approaches 0.01 you start to fall foul of localised shell buckling. This is sometimes called the beer can law because an empty beer can is in theory a very strong stiff structure but in practice it isn't. If I am very careful I can stand on one foot on a perfectly formed empty beer can, but if someone then pokes the side of the can with one finger it will crumple straight away.

This limits the tubing diameter you can use at a given frame mass: the denser the material the smaller the tube diameter at which you hit these problems. This is one reason why you'll never see a steel frame with the kinds of tubing diameters common on aluminium frames: it would be either very heavy or it would crumple if you squeezed the tubes. 

Ti is of course about halfway between the two; I personally wouldn't ride a frame that used tubing of greater than 40mm diameter.


----------



## tidi (Jan 11, 2008)

*thanx*



jayp said:


> I don't think you'll regret your decision. I had the same concern about titanium being too flexy, but have ridden a Lynskey R230 for the past couple of months and like it a lot. As a 200 lb rider with an XL sized frame who likes to climb rolling hills by mashing on the pedals in the middle gears while standing, I can tell you that the frame does not flex appeciably or steal energy. Power transfer seems efficient. Ride quality is firm, with some firm springiness in the vertical direction when going over bumps, but that's what the R230 model is designed to do with its curved seat stays. The Cooper should be stiffer than my R230, as it has straight seat stays, especially in a ML size vs. my XL.
> 
> I suspect that titanium's reputation for being flexy came about from some low budget models or inexperienced builders who used round tubing without shaping it. I'm not familiar with other companies, but Lynskey works the tubes into oval, diamond, or helix shapes (depending on the model). This increases structural rigidity due to the shape, but also I think the act of working the metal probably makes the metal stiffer.


i've owned a tst ti frame and a 96 de rosa titanio. the tst was excellent but was to big so i let it go and the de rosa fit me perfect but it wa like riding a horse i imagine as it just felt soft al over. i was really dissapointed in the de rosa but i sold it so have moved on. can't wait for the lynskey cooper


----------



## Ohm (Dec 14, 2009)

Yes you said and I was speaking of the diameter only... 

Thanks for the explaination but I do remember the beer can effect and I like to stand on cans or try out en egg shells amazing strength (in compression). But is it not that the strength is not increasing at the same rate/order as stiffness? Strength being proportional to the product of mass (  ) and diameter only? The ratio between strength and stiffnes sliding down when incresing the diameter meaning you can't flex the tubing?
It was years ago I studied as I said so I could be very wrong though.


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

Since stiffness increases as D^2 x m and strength as d x m, the ratio of strength to stiffness does indeed decrease with increasing diameter. 

Stated the other way around, the ratio of stiffness to strength increases with diameter.

I'm not sure that either metric is particularly germane to frame design. Looking at what's out there, it seems to me that the product of stiffness x strength falls in a pretty narrow range. With some reasonable assumptions regarding tube geometry, assuming an equal product of stiffness x strength across metal frames yields a mass of around 1400 g for steel, 1200 g for Ti and 1000g for Al (for a nominal 55 cm frame). For each case the highest strength commonly available alloy was assumed and the results don't seem too far off the ballpark. 

With these assumptions the steel frame will be the strongest but least stiff, the Al frame will be the stiffest but least strong and the TI frame will be a nice middle ground (and will have the highest fatigue strength of all)


----------

