# Name That Frame



## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Hello everyone and welcome to Name That Frame, the game show where you uncover the make and model of a previously unidentified frame. Today's mystery frame has some history on this forum. I bought it because it seemed to be a gem hidden under a wretched paintjob. It was advertised as a Miyata, but that remains unproven – it seems to lack splined tubing, has a different seat stay cap, and different head tube lugs from the Miyatas in the catalogs.

Braze-ons include a chain hanger, a pump peg, down tube shifter mounts, and mounts for two bottle cages.

It came without decals and covered with thick yellow paint (not original). I only discovered the serial number after stripping it. I then applied a (poor) white and metallic blue paint job and used it as a commuter. It has retired from that role, and because the metallic blue chipped like mad, I've now started stripping it in preparation for a better paint job.

Below are pictures to help you identify the frame. The winner will receive my praise, and is entitled to beer (or other food/drink) if he or she is in Madison, WI.

*The fork:* There's no guarantee the fork is original, but I think it is. You can't see it, but the steering tube has "Tange.5.I" and a 'J' and 'S' in a circle stamped on it. Also, the crown race was originally JIS sized (since cut down to ISO), which indicates a Japanese origin for the fork, if not the frame. Note the shape of the fork crown and the lack of eyelets.










*The whole frame:*










*The bottom of the bottom bracket*, including the serial number. It seams to be “IS513786”. Also note that there is a chainstay bridge.










*Headtube front:* Note how the lugs have points in the middle.










*The dropouts:* The top reads “Shimano”. The bottom reads “EP” or “EF” (it's not clear). Note that there are no eyelets.










*The seat cluster:* Note that the top of the seat stay cap has a flat surface and has nothing written on it.










*Head tube side:* Note the pump peg.










*Bottom Bracket side:* Note the lug shape.










*Downtube shifter mounts:*










*Stays:* Note the chain hanger.










If you think more pictures might help, just let me know where to point the camera.

Happy hunting.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

I should add that I've been searching for this frame's identity for some time, and one thing which has ruled out many frames is the tips on the front of the head tube lugs. Most of the usual suspects (Miyata, Panasonic, etc.) don't seem to have them. If you've seen that style of lug on a bike, that could help narrow down the company. I've seen them on Schwinn and Lotus bikes (example).

Also, does anyone know the format for Miyata serial numbers? I've got my doubts about whether this is really a Miyata, so knowing that could settle this issue. In other words, if you've got a Miyata serial number, post it here and -- even if you don't know what it means -- we can see if it has two letters followed by six numbers.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Nice frame...you can rule out Panasonic...Their serial number was on the head tube lug


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks Dave -- good to know that about Panasonic.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Could be a Bridgestone made Schwinn?


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## gclark (Apr 7, 2009)

looks like my centurtion.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Richard said:


> Could be a Bridgestone made Schwinn?


I've been wondering if it could be a Schwinn -- I know I've seen similar ones. The problem is all the ones I've seen have riveted head tube badges, and this frame definitely doesn't. Also, I think I checked and it didn't fit the Schwinn serial number scheme.

Did some of Schwinn's outsourced bikes have different serial number formats/no head tube badges?


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

gclark said:


> looks like my centurtion.


Interesting. Can you post pictures or give other information? (Model, serial number, etc.)


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

Second that Centurion call. I just had a look at a 1987 Centurion parked outside at the rack, and the bottom bracket lug and bridge look identical. If the paint remnants are original, then that would also support that, as 1980s Centurions had different colored seat and head tubes like the mystery frame appears to. They were usually a lighter color than the rest of the bike, going from memory.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

aptivaboy said:


> Second that Centurion call. I just had a look at a 1987 Centurion parked outside at the rack, and the bottom bracket lug and bridge look identical. If the paint remnants are original, then that would also support that, as 1980s Centurions had different colored seat and head tubes like the mystery frame appears to. They were usually a lighter color than the rest of the bike, going from memory.


The current paint scheme is not original -- the paint I first saw it with was all yellow, but I don't know if that was original either.

One problem with the Centurion theory is that the serial number doesn't fit the theorized format. Of course, that's not set in stone -- if you can find a serial number that counters that theory, that would be interesting.


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## gclark (Apr 7, 2009)

yea that is ture on the serial number theory.but mine has all of the small little details like the pump peg and that little knob above the rear derailer mount.looks identical though.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

If memory serves me right, the Schwinn Prologues and Circuits (Japanese sourced, some from Panasonic and some from Bridgestone, but I'm not sure which) did not have riveted head badges.

Scooper would be the one to know.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I never knew that little knob was a chain holder. Never asked what it was on my last frame.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

I hadn't considered Schwinn since I didn't think the serial number matched, but I had only been looking at the format for bikes made in Chicago. A little googleing shows some serial numbers starting with two letters and ending with 6 numbers. Looks promising. I'll PM Scooper tomorrow.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Looking at no vent/holes underneath the bottom bracket, it looks like an Asian made frame such as a Miyata.
I had many European made frames from the early 80's, and I recall all of the had some sort of draining holes on the bottom....

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_whtVpXkKwlQ/R1oECOqjL0I/AAAAAAAAAEE/fuL7PXFZ7l4/s1600-h/img008.jpg


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Scooper reports that the serial number doesn't fit any of the Schwinn formats he knows, so it looks like Schwinn is out.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Good point -- I agree that the signs point to Japan. Now just to figure out which manufacturer...


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I think you can rule out a Japanese made Fuji also. If memory serves me right, the better Fujis had Suntour dropouts.

Univega maybe?


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Richard said:


> I think you can rule out a Japanese made Fuji also. If memory serves me right, the better Fujis had Suntour dropouts.
> 
> Univega maybe?


That's a good point. I hadn't ruled out Fuji because the serial number almost fit their format (although not quite). Although the 1985 catalog isn't detailed enough to really see the frame, I do see that it's all Suntour, so I think you're right.

I'll look in to Univega.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

I haven't had much luck finding info on Univega serial numbers. Did they have one format or did they vary with the manufacturer?


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

dlenmn said:


> I haven't had much luck finding info on Univega serial numbers. Did they have one format or did they vary with the manufacturer?


Almost all of the Univegas of that level were made by Miyata, but they weren't just "rebadged." Our shop has a long history with Italvega/Univega/Bertoni as it is owned by the son-in-law of the late Ben Lawee. Ben took a direct hand in frame spec and design, witness my Bertoni TSX made by Daccordi. According to our "boss", that frame was a "labor of love" and Ben specced everything from the tubing, the frame angles, the paint, the pantographing, etc. Then he let Daccordi build and sell the same frame in Europe under their name. In Europe, Daccordi called that frame the "Grife" for the "claws" of the fluted headtube lugs, but they were SLX not TSX.

Bertonis were also made by Bianchi and Rossin

But even with Univega there is some confusion. My 1984 Univega Super Strada was Tange # 1 tubing, whereas I understood Miyata specced their own tubesets from Ishiwata.

It could be a Western States Import Centurion, but I don't ever recall them having the "pointed" lugs on the face of the headtube.

Great mystery!!!


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Richard said:


> It could be a Western States Import Centurion, but I don't ever recall them having the "pointed" lugs on the face of the headtube.
> 
> Great mystery!!!



Pointed lugs...Panasonic has pointed lugs but the serial number is in the wrong spot...Panasonic, like Miyata, made frame for others....I'll dig around and see who


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Looks a lot like a KHS that I used to ride in the late 80's. Forget the model.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Richard said:


> Our shop has a long history with Italvega/Univega/Bertoni as it is owned by the son-in-law of the late Ben Lawee.


Do you have access to any Univega catalogs or know the names of models that might be a match? (I'm guessing high end models, since the frame lacks eyelets.) Some of the Univega pictures I've seen online look promising, but without catalogs I can't do an exhaustive search and without model names I can't do a targeted search.

Univega seems to be one of the few brands where there aren't some catalogs online (besides a few mount bike catalogs).


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

The more I think about it, I don't think it's a Univega. Most of the Univegas from that era had the downtube shifter boss on the top of the downtube rather than the more conventional separate bosses on the side like your frame.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Richard said:


> The more I think about it, I don't think it's a Univega. Most of the Univegas from that era had the downtube shifter boss on the top of the downtube rather than the more conventional separate bosses on the side like your frame.


Well, I've had no trouble finding ones with bosses on the sides (from looking at other manufacures it seems bosses on the top were a brief fad in the mid 80s). Take this one for example. Right bottom bracket, chainstays, and dropouts (although most other things are wrong).


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

*Frame dated*

I knew that Shimano liked to put date codes on their equipment, but I just learned this includes their dropouts. So I removed some paint, looked carefully, and sure enough 'IJ' on both dropouts. That means October 1985. So the frame was probably 1986 model year.

Any new thoughts?


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

For what it's worth, that seams to rule out Miyata.The Shimano EF dropouts seem only to be on the Team (for both 85 and 86), and that's simply not a match (85 and 86 pictures).


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Well, continuing along this line, here's what it's not:

Miyata (85-6 catalog comparison -- doesn't match known serial numbers either)
Panasonic (serial number and 85-6 catalog comparison)
Bridgestone (85-6 catalog comparison)
Fuji (serial number)
Centurion (serial number)
Nishiki (serial number)

Questionable but not ruled out:

Univega (more than one serial number format, but I haven't seen one which matches -- example serial numbers)
Lotus (serial number format not established, but does not fit known examples such as this)

Not ruled out:
???

Can anyone help add to the last category. I know Japanese frames were imported under a bazillion names, but most of them were made by a handful of companies (and often used their serial numbers). Many of these companies have already been ruled out -- which ones am I missing?


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## JP (Feb 8, 2005)

Lotus?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Shogun?......


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

JP said:


> Lotus?


Already in the list.


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Shogun?......


There do seem to be Shoguns out there with compatible serial numbers. Anyone know what the mid 80s Shogun lineup was?

Since Shoguns seem to have multiple serial number formats, it stands to reason that they were made by multiple manufactures -- it'd be really know to know who they were.


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## chevyjoe (Nov 10, 2010)

it might be a motobecane grand touring mine has everything but the pump peg


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## dlenmn (Mar 28, 2006)

Interesting. Does your serial number have a similar format? Do you know what year your frame is?

Now I just need to find a 1986 motobecane catalog...

The one picture I found of a 1986 motobecane grand touring doesn't look right:

http://www.bikejournal.com/profiles.asp?rname=ollo_ollo

Possibly dumb question: is the grand touring a touring bike? Because this frame is definitely not a touring frame.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Barney, Sam, Lilly.....no, how about Rusty? Yes, Rusty, I like that name.


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## jet sanchEz (Nov 28, 2005)

I had a Nishiki go through my hands that looks a lot like this, even the colours are the same. 

Bikeforums has a Nishiki database thread here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?390318-Nishiki-Serial-Number-Database&highlight=nishiki


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## axydlbaaxr (Feb 26, 2012)

Looks distinctly like a Takara my brother had in the early/mid 80's.


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## Trower (Apr 28, 2009)

Man that looks like a Bridgestone, I'll check the serial on mine (86 bridgstone 600) and see if it is formatted similarly.


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## Trower (Apr 28, 2009)

Well my Bridgestone has no braised on cable guides on the BB and no serial stamped on the bottom of the BB, so probably not a bridgstone.


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## onespeedbiker (May 28, 2007)

I'm not sure about the serial number. If the bike is an 1986 and the last two numbers are ..86;might be a clue. I also noticed the chain stays are not pinched and I have seen similar lugs and the EF dropouts on Panasonic bikes.


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