# Campy, it's time for a 11-28!



## DrSmile

The 12-29 is nice but that was over 3 years ago, what have you done for us lately? Yes people really don't need the 50x11, but guess what, they want it! Sram and Shimano not only have 11 speed 11-28, but they're both touting 11-32 (not a fan of the necessary mid-length RDs), so it seems to be a pretty large market segment that's unwise to ignore.

Oh, and do it like Sram... keep the 16 and space out the big cogs.


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## Donn12

I thought they did but they don't ? I picked 12/25 for the tighter ratios but I could swear 11/28 was a choice. The only place I found that listed them was comp cyclist 

Campagnolo Super Record 11 Cassette - Competitive Cyclist


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## vhk30

50/34 need 11 in the mountains. (down) 

You have to buy for example Chorus 11-23 and Super Record 12-29! More money :mad2: 

Chorus: 11,12,13,14,15+/16-17-18/+/19-21-23/

Super Record: 12,13,14,15,16+/17-19-21/+/23-26-29/

Than you can made first 5 (11,12,13,14,15) from Chorus and last 6 /17-19-21/+/23-26-29/ from SR sprocket. :idea:

Than you have a "new" 11-29 Super Record sprocket! 

But it works. :thumbsup:


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## pulser955

I just want an 11x26 like sram has.


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## C-40

If you really need gearing that low, then just get a 12-29 and suffer without the 11.

Campy has a gearing philosophy that rejects the idea of large, unevenly spaced jumps between the cogs, so an 11-28 is unlikely.

The mixing of an 11-23 with a 12-29 to produce an 11-29 can be done without resorting to any SR cogs. Chorus cassettes can be had in the same 11-23 and 12-29 versions. The problem with this idea is the 15-17 shift is likely to be poor. I tried this same type of mix with 10 speed to make a 12-29 from a 12-25 and 13-29, but the 15-17 shift was lousy, due to improper cog timing.


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## DrSmile

C-40 said:


> Campy has a gearing philosophy that rejects the idea of large, unevenly spaced jumps between the cogs, so an 11-28 is unlikely.


I would have accepted this before the 12-29. But how is this:

11 speed 11-28: 11-12-13-14-15-16-17----19-------22-------25-------28 Sram

Spacing 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-3-3-3

significantly different in terms of spacing from this:

11 Speed 12-29: xx-12-13-14-15-16-17----19----21----23-------26-------29 Campagnolo

Spacing 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-3-3

In fact Shimano's 11-28 is spaced with less large jumps:

11 speed 11-28: 11-12-13-14-15----17----19----21----23----25-------28 Shimano

Spacing 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-3 

Campy just said this week that they want to get into the OEM market in a big way. They will have no choice but to offer the 11-28 if they want to succeed in this.


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## C-40

It's not the number of teeth that should be compared, but the percentage difference at each shift.

A 1-tooth change is about 8% between the 11-12 and gets smaller, as the cogs get larger, until it's only 6% at the 16-17 shift. If you skip the 16T, the 15-17 becomes a large 12% difference. Campy rarely makes a cassette without the 16, but they did make an 11-25 10 speed without it.

SRAM's 11-28 has a large percentage change of almost 14% at the 19-22 shift, that reduces back down to 12% at the 22-25 shift.

Campy keeps the percentages lower, until the last three cogs. which makes more sense, since the larger percentage jumps are not only tolerable, but often needed when riding steep climbs. The 12-29 makes perfect sense. If they had 12 speed, then they could make a great 11-29.


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## mikerp

DrSmile said:


> The 12-29 is nice but that was over 3 years ago, what have you done for us lately? Yes people really don't need the 50x11, but guess what, they want it! Sram and Shimano not only have 11 speed 11-28, but they're both touting 11-32 (not a fan of the necessary mid-length RDs), so it seems to be a pretty large market segment that's unwise to ignore.
> 
> Oh, and do it like Sram... keep the 16 and space out the big cogs.


My guess is Campy knows what market they are after and it's not a 1 for 1 with the other suppliers.
What chain ring are you actually looking to running with a 28? (I'm trying to understand what you are looking for)


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## DrSmile

C-40 said:


> It's not the number of teeth that should be compared, but the percentage difference at each shift.
> 
> A 1-tooth change is about 8% between the 11-12 and gets smaller, as the cogs get larger, until it's only 6% at the 16-17 shift. If you skip the 16T, the 15-17 becomes a large 12% difference. Campy rarely makes a cassette without the 16, but they did make an 11-25 10 speed without it.
> 
> SRAM's 11-28 has a large percentage change of almost 14% at the 19-22 shift, that reduces back down to 12% at the 22-25 shift.
> 
> Campy keeps the percentages lower, until the last three cogs. which makes more sense, since the larger percentage jumps are not only tolerable, but often needed when riding steep climbs. The 12-29 makes perfect sense. If they had 12 speed, then they could make a great 11-29.


I only listed spacing because you stated spacing (no disrespect C-40!). But the percentage change doesn't support your argument either:

11 speed 11-28: 11-12-13-14-15-16-17----19-------22-------25-------28 Sram

Spacing 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-3-3-3

Percent change: 9-8-7-7-6-6-12-16-14-12


11 Speed 12-29: xx-12-13-14-15-16-17----19----21----23-------26-------29 Campagnolo

Spacing 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-3-3

Percent change: 8-8-7-7-6-12-11-10-13-12


11 speed 11-28: 11-12-13-14-15----17----19----21----23----25-------28 Shimano

Spacing 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-3 

Percent change: 9-8-7-7-13-12-11-10-9-12

If you're arguing that you want lower percentage changes until you get to the larger cogs, clearly the Sram cassette would be the way to go.

I'll put my money where my mouth is and prognosticate... Campy said they will enter the OEM market in a big way, and I believe them. I therefore forecast a Campy 11-28 cassette within the next year to support the OEM compact trend.


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## natedg200202

I would disagree - the 11-28 is in no way attractive to me. Something larger than a 29 - that could be compelling.


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## DrSmile

natedg200202 said:


> I would disagree - the 11-28 is in no way attractive to me. Something larger than a 29 - that could be compelling.


Compared to the 11-25 that Campy currently offers the 11-28 would be way more attractive to OEMs looking for a compact drivetrain they can sell to more recreational cyclists. Obviously anything beyond that would require a mid-length RD. Sram and Shimano are two tiers ahead on the wide range compact drivetrains - they offer the 11-28 AND they offer 11-32 with a mid-length RD.


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## mikerp

I'm missing something.
Using http://www.ritzelrechner.de/# with a 34/50 with the 12/29 vs 11/28.
I'm not seeing a benefit for a recreational rider.


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## SystemShock

Donn12 said:


> I thought they did but they don't ? I picked 12/25 for the tighter ratios but I could swear 11/28 was a choice. The only place I found that listed them was competitive cyclist .
> 
> Campagnolo Super Record 11 Cassette - Competitive Cyclist


There's no Campy 11-28 listed in the link you provided.

But you can certainly find the cassettes Campy actually does make all over the Internet, not just at Competitive Cyclist.


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## SystemShock

DrSmile said:


> *Campy, it's time for an 11-28!*


I agree. 

Wide-range 11-X cassettes have become very popular on the Shimano/SRAM side of things in recent years (particularly in OEM), and I'm not sure why Campy stubbornly insists on continuing to shoot themselves in the foot by not offering one.

Now that Shimano and SRAM have 11-speed systems out or coming out soon, and both offer 11-28 in those, it makes even less sense for Campy to continue to turn a blind eye.

But y'know, I don't care all _that_ much... Campy will either listen to the marketplace and do well, or play deaf and continue to niche-ify itself further and further. Their call, and I'm not emotionally invested in the outcome.


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## Donn12

I wrote my post a little goofy but the campy cassettes are listed in the link.


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## SystemShock

Donn12 said:


> I wrote my post a little goofy but the campy cassettes are listed in the link.


I know. There's just no 11-28 listed at your link. They don't make one.


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## Fai Mao

A 50 tooth chain ring and a 11 tooth cog is 35.5 mph at 100 rpm
A 50 tooth chain ring and a 12 tooth cog is 32.6 mph at100 rpm

May I humbly suggest that anyone who could spin a 50/11 for any length of time probably doesn't need a 28 tooth cog in back.

I wish Campy made a 10 speed cog set for middle aged guys like me with bad knees a 13-30 10 speed


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## ultimobici

Fai Mao said:


> A 50 tooth chain ring and a 11 tooth cog is 35.5 mph at 100 rpm
> A 50 tooth chain ring and a 12 tooth cog is 32.6 mph at100 rpm
> 
> May I humbly suggest that anyone who could spin a 50/11 for any length of time probably doesn't need a 28 tooth cog in back.
> 
> I wish Campy made a 10 speed cog set for middle aged guys like me with bad knees a 13-30 10 speed


They do. Centaur 12-30 has just been released, taking over from the 13-29.

As for the 11 speed set ups, they have just announced a 11-27 cassette ratio.

If you _think_ you _need_ an 11 up cassette, learn to _pedal_.


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## SystemShock

ultimobici said:


> As for the 11 speed set ups, they have just announced a 11-27 cassette ratio.


Whoa... link? 

If so, cool. They definitely needed to.


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## ultimobici

SystemShock said:


> Whoa... link?
> 
> If so, cool. They definitely needed to.


Oops, 2014! Should say I have seen the codes on their b2b and our order for them. Late summer/early autumn.


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## ultimobici

I think Campagnolo's view is that if you need a 28 or bigger, you're unlikely to actually need an 11. Having ridden many of the climbs in the Italian Alps and Dolomites, I can see their point. You are easily hitting 70kmh+ coasting on roads where you can see for miles. Pedalling would be pointless and on more technical stuff 50X12 is plenty good enough.


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## SystemShock

ultimobici said:


> I think Campagnolo's view is that if you need a 28 or bigger, you're unlikely to actually need an 11. Having ridden many of the climbs in the Italian Alps and Dolomites, I can see their point. You are easily hitting 70kmh+ coasting on roads where you can see for miles. Pedalling would be pointless and on more technical stuff 50X12 is plenty good enough.


They can have that view all they like, but fact is, 11-28 is very common now.

Campy can think "Well, you don't really need that", but if the buying public thinks they DO, then Campy is simply ace-ing themselves out of some sales. 

Again, they're free to do that if they really want to. 

But if, as you said, they've finally relented and decided to release an 11-27 later this year, then why bother to defend their previous thinking? It's no longer relevant, as obviously their stance has changed.


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## Fai Mao

ultimobici said:


> I think Campagnolo's view is that if you need a 28 or bigger, you're unlikely to actually need an 11. Having ridden many of the climbs in the Italian Alps and Dolomites, I can see their point. You are easily hitting 70kmh+ coasting on roads where you can see for miles. Pedalling would be pointless and on more technical stuff 50X12 is plenty good enough.


That is the point I was trying to make. Riders like me with a physical issue are never going to need a 11 tooth cog unless I have something like a 22/32/42 on a road bike, if then but I will use a 30. I don't see the need for an 11 tooth cog with a 30 in back

I like the 12/30 10 speed but I'd like a 13/30 even more


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## ultimobici

Last summer I rode the Bonnette on a Frankenstein 11-29 cassette, first part of an 11-23 mated to the backend of a 12-29. It worked ok but it wasn't ideal. Campagnolo may be able to make it work but if it's at the expense of racing functionality it will require a new mech as SRAM have made.


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## ultimobici

If you're running Campagnolo and want nonstandard ratios buy a Miche Supertype cassette. You can make up whatever ratio you want then.


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## aclinjury

big guys riding long hills using compact WILL want 11-28. I see plenty of bigs spinning out 50x11 going down 3-4% grade where pedalling is still advantageous. Now if it gets over 6% then they can tuck


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## Fai Mao

aclinjury said:


> big guys riding long hills using compact WILL want 11-28. I see plenty of bigs spinning out 50x11 going down 3-4% grade where pedalling is still advantageous. Now if it gets over 6% then they can tuck


*
Before you start calling me names do the math on this.* 

Unless you ride with 28 year old versions of Gregg Lemond, Alberto Contador, Eddy Merckx and Laurent Figon you are not seeing guys "spin out" an 11 tooth cog with a road crank even down hill. I am not sure you'd see it even if you rode with those greats in their prime

Look at the speeds I listed above. Those are the speeds at 100 cadence with a 50/11 combination and a 172.5 crank length. To spin out of a gear is at least 20 rpm more probably 35 more but we'll use 120 for the numbers here.

A 50/11-172.5 at 120 cadence is about 42.6 mph.
A 53/11-172.5 at 120 cadence is about 45.2 mph 

That is the simple physics of the matter. Are you seeing guys hitting 45+ mph down a hill but still need more speed? Not very often

So no you don't see guys who can "spin out" using either a 50/11 or 53/11 on a a shallow to moderate grade even assuming a rather low spin out cadence of 120. If you regularly see riders that pump up to the 70 /75 mph speed range down long hills then tell me where they are so that I can avoid those roads because that would be unbelievably dangerous and I hate to have to stop and give first aid to idiots 
*
Once again do the math before you call me names*. 

Look at the actual speeds that "Spinning out" of a 50/11 would be assuming that spinning out is a 120 cadence. You do not need an 11 tooth cog, nobody does. It is just marketing. In fact you can make a better argument that you don't even need a 12 than that you need an 11. The 11 just makes you feel like a racer.

The simple truth is that NOBODY who is not a paid rider, if them, needs an 11 tooth cog *unless they have a 46 tooth or smaller large chain ring.* Figuring the speeds at cadence will show you that is true. It is just that simple. People who push an 11 tooth cog on a large chain ring, even down a hill, are just asking to blow out their knees. 

BTW I am using the late great Sheldon Brown's gearing chart to get these speeds. You can see it yourself here:
Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Gear Calculator


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## tom_h

Unless you're doing a lot of training @ 120 rpm, that is difficult to maintain for any significant length of time. 
Excluding elite sprinters or track enthusiasts, vast majority of self-selected cadences for an intermediate-to-advanced rider will be 85-105 rpm.
The very high RPMs are very oxygen-uptake inefficient. Probably why you typically only see it during anaerobic (or nearly so) sprints.


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## ultimobici

Fai Mao said:


> The simple truth is that NOBODY who is not a paid rider, if them, needs an 11 tooth cog *unless they have a 46 tooth or smaller large chain ring.*


There is one legitimate reason for having an 11-up cassette.

I started out on 52/42 & 13-21 in my teens, graduating eventually to 53/42 & 12-25. After a trip to Italy I swapped the chainset out for a compact. It drove me crazy, not when I was riding hard, rather when I was tapping along at a relaxed pace. 42 x16 was my preferred gear, which equates to 34x13. Problem is that causes the chain to clip the inside of the 50, not to mention being inefficient. An 11-up cassette allows me to use the 34x13 with no issues. My riding is predominantly in the Home Counties of England, with occasional trips to Italy & France. At home I'm almost exclusively on 50/38 & 11-23 or 11-25. For trips to the Italian Lakes I swap out the 38 for a 34. If I'm spending extended time in the Alps or Dolomites I use an 11-29 made up from a Chorus 11-23 and the top end of a SR11 12-29.

Anyway, for those who don't believe they're coming here's a few pics to whet your appetites. Enjoy!

View attachment 282128
View attachment 282129
View attachment 282130


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## tom_h

ultimobici,

Any idea what cogs will be on those 11-27?
It would be most annoying if the 16t cog was skipped.

A hypothetical,

11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 19 - 21 - 23 - 27
OR
11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 19 - 21 - 24- 27,

both have disadvantages. 

A huge 17% jump from 23 to 27 is (barely) tolerable if it's being used as a "bail out" or "emergency" gear.

21 to 24 is more likely to be within the typical range of use, but is still a very large 14%.


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## SystemShock

ultimobici said:


> There is one legitimate reason for having an 11-up cassette.
> 
> I started out on 52/42 & 13-21 in my teens, graduating eventually to 53/42 & 12-25. After a trip to Italy I swapped the chainset out for a compact. It drove me crazy, not when I was riding hard, rather when I was tapping along at a relaxed pace. 42 x16 was my preferred gear, which equates to 34x13. Problem is that causes the chain to clip the inside of the 50, not to mention being inefficient. An 11-up cassette allows me to use the 34x13 with no issues. My riding is predominantly in the Home Counties of England, with occasional trips to Italy & France. At home I'm almost exclusively on 50/38 & 11-23 or 11-25. For trips to the Italian Lakes I swap out the 38 for a 34. If I'm spending extended time in the Alps or Dolomites I use an 11-29 made up from a Chorus 11-23 and the top end of a SR11 12-29.


Sounds like a 36t inner ring would've solved pretty much all your problems, while still giving you a low bottom gear.


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## C-40

A 42/16 is the same as a 50/19. Makes more sense than a 34/13.


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## ultimobici

C-40 said:


> A 42/16 is the same as a 50/19. Makes more sense than a 34/13.


Not really, when you have to troll through 15km of London traffic before you get out onto clearer roads.


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## Fai Mao

tom_h said:


> Unless you're doing a lot of training @ 120 rpm, that is difficult to maintain for any significant length of time.
> Excluding elite sprinters or track enthusiasts, vast majority of self-selected cadences for an intermediate-to-advanced rider will be 85-105 rpm.
> The very high RPMs are very oxygen-uptake inefficient. Probably why you typically only see it during anaerobic (or nearly so) sprints.


That is my point. When someone says that they see riders spinning out of a 12 tooth gear and needing an 11 tooth cog. Nobody needs that because nobody can spin that gear fast enough or long enough. Your cadence should be around 95 to 105 not 120 - 135 but not 65 to 85 either

I am assuming that the term "Spinning out" still means having to pedal really fast with very little force in the 120 to 135 range


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## Fai Mao

ultimobici said:


> There is one legitimate reason for having an 11-up cassette.
> 
> I started out on 52/42 & 13-21 in my teens, graduating eventually to 53/42 & 12-25. After a trip to Italy I swapped the chainset out for a compact. It drove me crazy, not when I was riding hard, rather when I was tapping along at a relaxed pace. 42 x16 was my preferred gear, which equates to 34x13. Problem is that causes the chain to clip the inside of the 50, not to mention being inefficient. An 11-up cassette allows me to use the 34x13 with no issues. My riding is predominantly in the Home Counties of England, with occasional trips to Italy & France. At home I'm almost exclusively on 50/38 & 11-23 or 11-25. For trips to the Italian Lakes I swap out the 38 for a 34. If I'm spending extended time in the Alps or Dolomites I use an 11-29 made up from a Chorus 11-23 and the top end of a SR11 12-29.
> 
> Anyway, for those who don't believe they're coming here's a few pics to whet your appetites. Enjoy!
> 
> View attachment 282128
> View attachment 282129
> View attachment 282130


You are right. If you use a middle ring like a 36 with an 11 it is a useful gear.


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## aclinjury

Fai Mao said:


> That is my point. When someone says that they see riders spinning out of a 12 tooth gear and needing an 11 tooth cog. Nobody needs that because nobody can spin that gear fast enough or long enough. Your cadence should be around 95 to 105 not 120 - 135 but not 65 to 85 either
> 
> I am assuming that the term "Spinning out" still means having to pedal really fast with very little force in the 120 to 135 range


I regularly hit 116 rpm with 50x11 on a 3-4% downhill gradient. While 116 rpm may not be 120 rpm, but it's approaching it. Even though I'm barely putting any force into the pedals, but the sustained high rpm (over a distance of 5-6 miles) is enough to make me gasp harder than when I was climbing. I see the big guys next to me spinning at about the same cadence and they're just about to blow up, even though they're barely putting much force into the pedals.

Track racers can hit 120-130+ rpm, but they do this over how long? 30 seconds? or over 5-6 miles?

Do you agree that for a given power output (say 300W-350W), a cadence of say 95-105 is more efficient than at say 120 rpm?


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## Fai Mao

aclinjury said:


> I regularly hit 116 rpm with 50x11 on a 3-4% downhill gradient. While 116 rpm may not be 120 rpm, but it's approaching it. Even though I'm barely putting any force into the pedals, but the sustained high rpm (over a distance of 5-6 miles) is enough to make me gasp harder than when I was climbing. I see the big guys next to me spinning at about the same cadence and they're just about to blow up, even though they're barely putting much force into the pedals.
> 
> Track racers can hit 120-130+ rpm, but they do this over how long? 30 seconds? or over 5-6 miles?
> 
> Do you agree that for a given power output (say 300W-350W), a cadence of say 95-105 is more efficient than at say 120 rpm?


Yes I do but that is the point. The poster said that people going down a slop would "spin out" of a 12 and NEED an 11 where more speed is needed but if you look at the speeds achieved at cadence I just can't see it. Maybe I just had better bearings or tires than you but going down long hills I didn't have to pedal to reach 40 mph You don't generally sprint down long hills at speeds of better than 40 mph.

It is just almost physiologically impossible to have the strength to spin out (i.e. very high cadence over 120) of a 53/12 much less a 53/11 for all but the most elite riders for any length of time, especially on level land. I think that for most riders, even the majority of racers, they would have very difficult time pushing 95-100 in a 53/11 on level land.

I realize I am somewhat against the common thought on this. But I feel I am right. riders are better off measuring cadence and staying at a pace they can sustain rather pushing a huge gear and ending up with blown out knees by age 27


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## tom_h

Several previous comments to the effect "no body needs" an 11t cog.

Well, today I went on the local hammerfest group ride, didn't have time to isntall the 11-25 cassette, and rode with the 12-27 (with 50t chainring).

After cresting one hill, there's section of 3-4% downhill before the road flattens. On that gentle downhill, 
42 mph (5 sec)
130 rpm peak
430 watts (5 sec)
and I am sliding backwards in the pack.

Sometimes you really do need an 11t !


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## vhk30

Hello tom_h!

Sorry, I don't speak very good english, and i'm not ultimobici. 

11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 19 - 21 - 24 - 27?

It is very good, but Campa unfortunately doesn't think that.

View attachment 282220


It is:

11-12-13-14-15+ /17-19-21/ + /23-25-27/

The picture was here:

Campagnolo unveil Bora Ultra 35 wheelset (+ first ride) | Road Cycling UK

Campa didn't make a new one. You can do it at home from 11-23 or 11-25 (first 5) 11speed cassette + 12-27 11speed cassette (last 6)


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## masi85

Fai Mao said:


> Yes I do but that is the point. The poster said that people going down a slop would "spin out" of a 12 and NEED an 11 where more speed is needed but if you look at the speeds achieved at cadence I just can't see it. Maybe I just had better bearings or tires than you but going down long hills I didn't have to pedal to reach 40 mph You don't generally sprint down long hills at speeds of better than 40 mph.
> 
> It is just almost physiologically impossible to have the strength to spin out (i.e. very high cadence over 120) of a 53/12 much less a 53/11 for all but the most elite riders for any length of time, especially on level land. I think that for most riders, even the majority of racers, they would have very difficult time pushing 95-100 in a 53/11 on level land.
> 
> I realize I am somewhat against the common thought on this. But I feel I am right. riders are better off measuring cadence and staying at a pace they can sustain rather pushing a huge gear and ending up with blown out knees by age 27


I feel like I am spun out all the time going down hill in the Palo Verdes area of Los Angeles on the 11 tooth sprocket. I don't know what my cadence is but I am seriously thinking about going to a 52/36 crankset to the get a higher top speed I need to improve my Strava times on certain down hill segments!


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## SystemShock

vhk30 said:


> Hello tom_h!
> 
> Sorry, I don't speak very good english, and i'm not ultimobici.
> 
> 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 19 - 21 - 24 - 27?
> 
> It is very good, but Campa unfortunately doesn't think that.
> 
> View attachment 282220
> 
> 
> It is:
> 
> 11-12-13-14-15+ /17-19-21/ + /23-25-27/
> 
> The picture was here:
> 
> Campagnolo unveil Bora Ultra 35 wheelset (+ first ride) | Road Cycling UK
> 
> Campa didn't make a new one. You can do it at home from 11-23 or 11-25 (first 5) 11speed cassette + 12-27 11speed cassette (last 6)



I'm a bit surprised by this. I thought Campy didn't like to ditch the 16t cog, especially on their 11-speed clusters... but now they have? :confused5:


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## DrSmile

vhk30 said:


> It is:
> 
> 11-12-13-14-15+ /17-19-21/ + /23-25-27/


This is quite disappointing for two reasons:

1) It's essentially a Shimano 11-28, substituting a 27 for a 28... Shimano wins. :cryin:
2) The Sram 11-32 has the same gearing up to and including the 19, but from then on offers 5 more cogs of gearing! People buy these cassettes for bailout gears, not nice and even steps.


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## kjdhawkhill

Fai Mao said:


> Look at the speeds I listed above. Those are the speeds at 100 cadence with a 50/11 combination and a *172.5 crank length*. To spin out of a gear is at least 20 rpm more probably 35 more but we'll use 120 for the numbers here.
> 
> A 50/11-*172.5* at 120 cadence is about 42.6 mph.
> A 53/11-*172.5* at 120 cadence is about 45.2 mph......
> 
> BTW I am using the late great Sheldon Brown's gearing chart to get these speeds. You can see it yourself here:
> Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Gear Calculator


Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not math or physics major, but crank length has nothing to do with your calculation. What matters is how fast the chainrings are spinning (the 50 teeth are the same circumference, and are what are directly pulling the chain), not how much leverage the pedal and foot have on those teeth. Sure, it affects power/torque needed to and fit, but once you've gotten to the calculated RPM, crank-length is moot.


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## ultimobici

vhk30 said:


> Hello tom_h!
> 
> Sorry, I don't speak very good english, and i'm not ultimobici.
> 
> 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 19 - 21 - 24 - 27?
> 
> It is very good, but Campa unfortunately doesn't think that.
> 
> View attachment 282220
> 
> 
> It is:
> 
> 11-12-13-14-15+ /17-19-21/ + /23-25-27/
> 
> The picture was here:
> 
> Campagnolo unveil Bora Ultra 35 wheelset (+ first ride) | Road Cycling UK
> 
> Campa didn't make a new one. You can do it at home from 11-23 or 11-25 (first 5) 11speed cassette + 12-27 11speed cassette (last 6)


It will be interesting to see if the parts are the same as the existing ones for the 17/19/21 or if they modify the triplet to accommodate a 15 to 17 shift. If not then your assumption is correct. I have an 11-29 for big mountains, made from the first 5 from a Chorus 11-23 and the back 6 from a Super Record 12-29.

We'll see in time what they've done to achieve this.


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## kbwh

tom_h said:


> Several previous comments to the effect "no body needs" an 11t cog.
> 
> Well, today I went on the local hammerfest group ride, didn't have time to isntall the 11-25 cassette, and rode with the 12-27 (with 50t chainring).
> 
> After cresting one hill, there's section of 3-4% downhill before the road flattens. On that gentle downhill,
> 42 mph (5 sec)
> 130 rpm peak
> 430 watts (5 sec)
> and I am sliding backwards in the pack.
> 
> Sometimes you really do need an 11t !


Indeed. For double paceline riding a 50x11 (or the slightly shorter 53x12) is necessary imo. I can rotate at 75 km/h with that gear. I'm more than fine with 34x25 on all the climbs in my area, which only kick above 10% in short sections and very seldom are longer than 5 km. For trips to the Alps I would not need a longer gear than 50x12 (I can tuck), so a 12-27 or 12-29 would be just fine.

That new 11-27 is botched. No 16 is a failure. Hey, I run a 11-23 on my "race" wheels and I miss the 18 when I put on the wheels with 11-25!

Superflous crank arm lenght info in Fai Mao's post, yes.


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## vhk30

ultimobici said:


> It will be interesting to see if the parts are the same as the existing ones for the 17/19/21 or if they modify the triplet to accommodate a 15 to 17 shift. If not then your assumption is correct. I have an 11-29 for big mountains, made from the first 5 from a Chorus 11-23 and the back 6 from a Super Record 12-29.
> 
> We'll see in time what they've done to achieve this.


I bet it will be the same 

View attachment 282319


Left is /17-19-21/ from Record11 12-27cassette. Right is SR11 /17-19-21/ from 12-29cassette. These are the same.  This is just one example.
Where I live 50/34 with 11-23 is enough.
But!
I've done 11-29 as you. :thumbsup: In Italy sometimes you need 29  (Zoncolan, Plan de Corones...) And also 11, if I heve plain + downwind , long slope...


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## ultimobici

They are the same bar the fact that SR11 uses Ti for the sprockets.

Record, Super Record & Chorus use exactly the same parts for their cassettes from the 11 or 12 to the 5th sprocket. From there Chorus & Record share the same parts for the middle 3, and Record & Super Record share the last 3. Simples!

The interesting thing will be if Campagnolo simply use the same parts for the 11-27 as they do in the 12-27. I'll check the Chorus & Super Record we received last week tomorrow.


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## vhk30

ultimobici said:


> They are the same bar the fact that SR11 uses Ti for the sprockets.
> 
> Record, Super Record & Chorus use exactly the same parts for their cassettes from the 11 or 12 to the 5th sprocket. From there Chorus & Record share the same parts for the middle 3, and Record & Super Record share the last 3. Simples!
> 
> The interesting thing will be if Campagnolo simply use the same parts for the 11-27 as they do in the 12-27. I'll check the Chorus & Super Record we received last week tomorrow.


Okay!

It is 12-29

View attachment 282320


You see how the chain running. ( in red) If I made 11-29, they have this same "line".
And it is important.
It works.
I think, home made will be the same 11-27, as the original.


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## Fai Mao

I was using Sheldon Brown's Gain Ratio formula which includes crank length. A longer crank arm at the same cadence will be slightly faster. 


Also my perception may be somewhat skewed because i am an ex-Triathlon guy and there is no drafting so no pace line. But I have found that keeping a cadence at about 95 to 105 allows me to maintain a better pace and end with a better average time. When I first started riding my cadence was not that fast it took me a couple of years to get so that the 100 cadence felt natural.


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## tom_h

FYI, it was reported TdF climbing phenom Nairo Quintana is using the 11-27 cassette + std 53/39 crank
www.cyclingnews.com/features/pro-bike-nairo-quintanas-pinarello-dogma-65-1-think-2


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## Fai Mao

tom_h said:


> FYI, it was reported TdF climbing phenom Nairo Quintana is using the 11-27 cassette + std 53/39 crank
> www.cyclingnews.com/features/pro-bike-nairo-quintanas-pinarello-dogma-65-1-think-2


LOL - That's why I am not in the Td'F.

The only way I could make some of those climbs with my ankle is with a motorized vehicle!


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