# is a trainer suppose to be harder than the road?



## daivs_T (Feb 2, 2009)

i have kurt kinetic road machine and i put in an hour session today and it seemed to be a LOT harder to get myself up to speed... i could only stay around 17-19mph... whereas when im on the road i can stay at 22-23mph....
are resistance units suppose to do this?


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## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

daivs_T said:


> i have kurt kinetic road machine and i put in an hour session today and it seemed to be a LOT harder to get myself up to speed... i could only stay around 17-19mph... whereas when im on the road i can stay at 22-23mph....
> are *resistance *units suppose to do this?


it's not a bug, it's a feature


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Was your position less aerodynamic than on the road? :idea:


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

daivs_T said:


> i have kurt kinetic road machine and i put in an hour session today and it seemed to be a LOT harder to get myself up to speed... i could only stay around 17-19mph... whereas when im on the road i can stay at 22-23mph....
> are resistance units suppose to do this?


Wheel speeds are meaningless on a trainer.

And yes it should be "harder" to maintain a given power output. Your body is a giant heatsink on the road...with 20mph winds going over and around your person, dissipating heat. On a trainer you're at room temp with virtually NO air circulation, and your body has a far more difficult time sinking heat.


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## zriggle (Apr 16, 2008)

Marc said:


> Wheel speeds are meaningless on a trainer.
> 
> And yes it should be "harder" to maintain a given power output. Your body is a giant heatsink on the road...with 20mph winds going over and around your person, dissipating heat. On a trainer you're at room temp with virtually NO air circulation, and your body has a far more difficult time sinking heat.


Very true. Go invest in a big box fan. Then get a bigger box fan. Good luck finding *any* fans in the midwest.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

daivs_T said:


> i have kurt kinetic road machine and i put in an hour session today and it seemed to be a LOT harder to get myself up to speed... i could only stay around 17-19mph... whereas when im on the road i can stay at 22-23mph....
> are resistance units suppose to do this?


Train by time, not speed.

My trainer's power curve is ridiculous. I average between 11 and 13.5 mph on it. On the road my 40K is under 55 minutes. Who cares how slowly your tire's spinning? It's not like a guy riding a trainer at 50mph is going to get any further than a guy riding at 5mph.

If it really bugs you, just say that on the trainer you average 18, on the road 22.5, and multiply your distance by 22.5/18, and that's your ride distance for the day.


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## daivs_T (Feb 2, 2009)

only reason its kinda wierd is cuz im more a spinner 110-120rpm.. but the trainer says that it gets harder the faster u go lol... but i guess this is good for power training giving my finesse legs the needed power


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

daivs_T said:


> only reason its kinda wierd is cuz im more a spinner 110-120rpm.. but the trainer says that it gets harder the faster u go lol... but i guess this is good for power training giving my finesse legs the needed power


That would be the point of the trainer. If you go 10mph you work less hard than if you go 20mph. Otherwise, it would be impossible to do intervals or any intelligent training. It gets harder when you go faster on the road, too.

If you're a spinner, then just shift down. Ride in your 39T front ring and 18T cog on the back and at 17mph you're going to have a cadence of 100rpm. 39x19 105rpm, 39x20 110rpm, 39x21 116rpm, 39x22 121rpm.

Chances are you're running a 12-25 cassette. This means that to ride between 110 and 120rpm at 17mph you should be in your little ring on the front and you should ride between your 2nd lowest gear and your 4th lowest gear.


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## Uprwstsdr (Jul 17, 2002)

My experience is the same. I have a 1Up trainer, and I find it much more difficult to turn a given gear on the trainer compared to a flat road. 

That being said, after a few trainer sessions, I feel like I'm flyin' when I go back out on the road.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Two big reasons.

1. Not sure what trainer you're using, but my KK was designed to give road speeds similar to what a 180lb rider would feel. Well, I'm only 148, so I don't go as fast as I would on the road.

2. In the real world, your flywheel is the earth. Your trainer has a somewhat smaller flywheel than the circumference of the earth


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Also, I think a lot of trainer users put too much pressure on the rear tire with the resistance unit. I also have a Kurt Kinetic trainer and the bike I use most often has a Powertap rear wheel. I only have to adjust the roller by turning the adjustment screw about 1 1/4 turns after initial contact of the resistance unit with the rear tire to get power readings comparable to road riding using the same gearing and cadence. Anything more and the power required to turn the gear at a given cadence goes up significantly. 

Second the "heatsink" comments above and their effects on the efforts required on a trainer. Even with a fan running on me, I'll have sweat beading up on my arms and that rarely happens to me on the road, even here in SW Florida in August. The inability to dissapate the heat just saps performance in a short period.


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## Uprwstsdr (Jul 17, 2002)

cdhbrad said:


> Also, I think a lot of trainer users put too much pressure on the rear tire with the resistance unit. I also have a Kurt Kinetic trainer and the bike I use most often has a Powertap rear wheel. I only have to adjust the roller by turning the adjustment screw about 1 1/4 turns after initial contact of the resistance unit with the rear tire to get power readings comparable to road riding using the same gearing and cadence. Anything more and the power required to turn the gear at a given cadence goes up significantly.



That's my one gripe about the 1Up, it's difficult to fine tune the pressure of the resistance unit against the rear tire.


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## tbgtbg (Mar 13, 2009)

I've used the Kurt Kinetic trainer for years. Typical workout for me, not including warm up and cool down, is 10miles at near 18mph, in a cool basement with a fan. I'm 5' 8", 140 lbs. I do this all winter, then go outside in the spring, and damn... on my 12mile loop, I average 18mph. The thing of it is, looking at the KK power chart on their web page, I'm putting out about 200W, which doesn't seem much, but sure feels hard.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Of course trainers are harder, they suck the soul out of you.


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## Pokey (Apr 15, 2006)

My biggest problem with the trainer is cornering.

 

Seriously though, the best measurement to use on a trainer is your breathing pattern - timing, rythm, and depth per half pedal stroke.

You have to learn how your body acts at a certain power output level. I found a pattern while on my trainer at a moderate output level and found that when I am out on the road, I can maintain that output level indefinitely.

While on the road, take note of your breathing up an incline - both at moderate-high and at flat-out-high-max output. Then when you are on the trainer doing intervals, up the resistance until you get to that pattern and stay there for the length of your interval.

A fan is an absolute MUST. My output on the trainer is significantly lower without a fan.

The other thing on a trainer is that there are NO breaks. no coasting, no stopping etc, so it's harder in that respect. When I get to an hout, my body has _had_ it on the trainer. But I can ride on real roads for hours (centuries) without feeling that bad.

Good luck...


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## Bertrand (Feb 1, 2005)

Interesting discussion. I've had a hard time getting my heart rate up on a trainer, but over this winter have tried a few things that have helped. The first is using a fan. Keeping cool seems to reduce the subjective level of exertion. The second is using the same bike on the trainer that I use on the road. I had been using my beater Miyata commuter which is hard to pedal at the best of times, and also increased my perceived exertion. Finally, I bought a dedicated wheel and trainer tire, which also seems to help by reducing noise.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

I always used to tell shop customers to try not to think of the trainer as indoor riding because it's so different. I find the oposite as the OP (different trainer) in that to get the intensity levels I want for harder work I'd driving silly fast wheelspeeds so the dynamics of how I'm pedaling aren't the same as outdoors. I'd like a trainer that I can work at much lower speeds with to better simulate uphills where there's not so much spinning wheel momentum.


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## Dresden (May 26, 2009)

Seems like I remember reading somewhere that the KK simulates a 1% climb.


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

is a trainer suppose to be harder than the road? 

Thats what she said!!! sorry lol long day


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Kurt makes a power computer for their trainers, only works for their trainers though. Since they know the amount of power required to get the unit to a certain speed, they can give you a rough estimate of what you are putting out. It's pretty accurate. They are cheap too. Get one. Then do 2 hours at 200W in front of a big fan. Do that twice a week all winter, with some higher end interval work in the early spring and you will be rocking it next year.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mtbbmet said:


> Kurt makes a power computer for their trainers, only works for their trainers though. Since they know the amount of power required to get the unit to a certain speed, they can give you a rough estimate of what you are putting out. It's pretty accurate. They are cheap too. Get one. Then do 2 hours at 200W in front of a big fan. Do that twice a week all winter, with some higher end interval work in the early spring and you will be rocking it next year.


I've seen that. I wonder if CycleOps will come out with something like that. I'd estimate the Kurt power meter wouldn't be horribly inaccurate on something like Fluid 2. Perhaps there'd be a % difference, but you should be able to get an idea of baseline and improvement.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

The reason Kurt is able to do that is because they calibrate the resistance on each unit. Not sure if Cyclops does that or not. I'm pretty sure that it would be mostly useless on any other trainer. A speed increase of 2km/hr would be about 20W on a Kurt, but the same increase could be 50W on a cyclops. And further increases would be totally dependent on how linear, or non-linear, the units power curve is. So in other words, totally inaccurate.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mtbbmet said:


> The reason Kurt is able to do that is because they calibrate the resistance on each unit. Not sure if Cyclops does that or not. I'm pretty sure that it would be mostly useless on any other trainer. A speed increase of 2km/hr would be about 20W on a Kurt, but the same increase could be 50W on a cyclops. And further increases would be totally dependent on how linear, or non-linear, the units power curve is. So in other words, totally inaccurate.


You're probably right, plus if they're just basing it on speed, climbing intervals are probably not as accurate. Resistance is high, but speed is low.


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## rogerstg (Aug 1, 2007)

According to their website, the KK trainers are calibrated to replicate the resistance experience of a rider assumed to be 165 lbs, riding a 23 lb bike with 170mm crank arms up a 1% grade, at sea level with no wind on rough asphalt... etc.

So if you weigh less it will be harder and if you weigh more, it'll be easier.


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## MarkZeus (Jun 12, 2008)

Has anyone experience a KK trainer with a pro 18 lbs flywheel? I was wondering if this is even more challenging than the normal flywheel?


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## rogerstg (Aug 1, 2007)

MarkZeus said:


> Has anyone experience a KK trainer with a pro 18 lbs flywheel? I was wondering if this is even more challenging than the normal flywheel?


I have the 18# flywheel and rarely use it. IMO, it makes the workout easier because it allows more realistic coasting. OTOH, if realistic cycling in a flat area is the goal, it works well for that.


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## Rok63 (Dec 13, 2008)

Emotion has nice Power Calculator excel form for their rollers:
http://www.insideride.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=26&Itemid=69
I use it to know what power I used for the workout.


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## Rok63 (Dec 13, 2008)

Emotion has nice Power Calculator excel form for their rollers:
http://www.insideride.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=26&Itemid=69
I use it to know what power I used for the workout.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Was your position less aerodynamic than on the road? :idea:


I really dont use this often but this is one of the rare occasions that really does deserve it LOL!!


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