# Armstrong's Redemption?



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

_“I think that there is potential for redemption for him and anyone, really. I think it all depends on what [Armstrong] said to the commission and if he was prepared to talk about his or other people’s involvement and whether he’s genuinely contrite and deserving of redemption,” Cookson said. 

“I think it has to be said that what Lance did, not that he was the only one or only one involved, but it all depends on what Lance said to the commission and what they come up with. … we have to acknowledge and approve of any redemption in the sentence in the sanctions that he got. I think that [USADA CEO] Travis Tygart has been saying the same sort of thing anyway and I don’t think there is any conflict there between USADA, but let’s see what Lance has been saying to the commission.”_

Read more at UCI president: â€˜Potentialâ€™ for Armstrong redemption - VeloNews.com


*Could Armstrong redeem himself? *

1. Yes
2. No, never
3. It depends on his commission omissions​
*If yes, what would Armstrong have to do in order to redeem himself?*

1. Kill himself. But first donate his body to science and all his money to anti-doping.
2. Rat out the real bad guys and play it cool moving forward, telling kids to stay in school and all that. He could ride Fondues. Whatever. 
3. Other:__________​


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

It would be interesting if he told us Nike funded his doping career. As far as redemption, yes, time will allow for that. It might be too soon still.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

rydbyk said:


> It would be interesting if he told us Nike funded his doping career. As far as redemption, yes, time will allow for that. It might be too soon still.


Well, I figure he would never pay himself when he could get someone else to pay. This is a strictly a do the math thing perhaps. As usual the guy at the bottom gets reamed. Although 'bottom' is relative.  But the guy driving the Bendz/BMRer paid for my corp lease that made the decisions does not. 

It is the same and music industry business model, although these days the top athletes actually reap some real coin, unlike days past... Is the rest really all that diff.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

What does redemption look like? 

A 40 year old athlete getting his lifetime ban reduced to 8 years? 
His lasting image being the guy who sat on Oprah's couch and only was sorry he got caught? Telling fat jokes and admitting 'I had to look up cheating in the dictionary.'
A potentially multi-zillion dollar Qui Tam suit, dragging on for years? 
Going to CIRC for mostly selfish reasons?

The CIRC can pave the way for him to ride in Gran Fodos. It can not "redem" him, or repair everything that is screwed up in his life.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

This may sound simplistic, but the reality is that he wasn't the only doper...

I think he needs to apologize for being a dick. The doping really isn't the big issue IMO. It was more the campaign he involved himself in to create the alternate reality that he was king **** and anyone who was against him was just wrong and should be punished.

If he worked to right the wrongs on a personal level, I think that'd go a lot farther than just coming clean on doping and fingering others involved.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

100% agree. I could probably forgive the doping doping given most of his competitors doped. I can't forgive the threats, bullying, intimidation, and cover-ups that he engaged in. I don't think Lance is sorry for anything other that getting caught. One of the OP's options was "rat out the real bad guys". I think he was the real bad guy, everyone else around him was being manipulated/coerced by him


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

DaveG said:


> 100% agree. I could probably forgive the doping doping given most of his competitors doped. I can't forgive the threats, bullying, intimidation, and cover-ups that he engaged in. I don't think Lance is sorry for anything other that getting caught. One of the OP's options was "rat out the real bad guys". I think he was the real bad guy, everyone else around him was being manipulated/coerced by him


Not the first time one of the suits was embedded into the team.
And he is not the first bully in cycling by any means, and they have been cheating since the beginning of time.

If I only had $.0000001 for each byte wasted on the convo. i would even give credit back for my own keystrokes...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Meanwhile Contador has 6 GT wins under his belt and would have had 8 if it weren't for Carne Astana.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

It was a long time ago. I would drop the sanctions at this point. I figure 2 years would have been enough and removal of his victories that are involved.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

"Rehabilitated? Well, now, let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means ... I know what you think it means, sonny. To me, it's just a made-up word. A politician's word, sonny. Young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie and have a job. What do you really want to know?"

Lance has taken a beating over the last few years, and he earned it. Do I think he should be allowed to compete again (in any sport)? Nope. Not just because he was a doper, because there were a lot of them. Some to a greater degree, some to a lesser degree. Not just because he's a giant douche, because there are a lot of them in cycling as well (as in all walks of life). Not just because of the things he did to protect his lies and protect the myth. It a combination of all of these. The guy is toxic and polarizing, and the sport call ill afford to allow him back.

To be honest, I have no problem with him riding in a non-competitive Gran Fondo. That Hincapie used USAC to sanction it isn't surprising, since the main benefit they provide events is insurance. That USAC enforced the rule isn't surprising here either, because they can't be seen as soft on Lance at this point.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lance does one day ride a non-USAC sanctioned Hincapie Gran Fondo. One of those rich guys that hangs around with George will sponsor it, and all of the old Postal boys will be back together again. Maybe it will provide some closure for those who testified against him and allow them to put him in perspective.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Alaska Mike said:


> View attachment 301426
> 
> "Rehabilitated? Well, now, let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means ... I know what you think it means, sonny. To me, it's just a made-up word. A politician's word, sonny. Young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie and have a job. What do you really want to know?"


+1.....


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

For Lance to find some measure of redemption would require him to show genuine remorse and contrition for the things he's done, not a series of self serving media events. But he doesn't appear to have a contrite bone in his body. So it's going to be hard for him.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Fireform said:


> For Lance to find some measure of redemption would require him to show genuine remorse and contrition for the things he's done, not a series of self serving media events. But he doesn't appear to have a contrite bone in his body. So it's going to be hard for him.




1) Genuine Remorse/Contrition
or
B) Self Serving Media Event

Who decides?


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Fireform said:


> For Lance to find some measure of redemption would require him to show genuine remorse and contrition for the things he's done, not a series of self serving media events. But he doesn't appear to have a contrite bone in his body. So it's going to be hard for him.


Everybody shows their emotions differently. Some are very private and others wear their heart on their sleeves, so to speak. Unless you are his confident or his therapist, you probably don't know exactly what he's feeling. 

I do believe he feels that there would be no wins, or even a team to win on, had he and his teammates didn't dope. And that IMHO is not his fault, but the fault of team managers, doctors and officials. He deserves no more or no less than any other doper from that era.

Now what he did in his business life is a different story and should not have any reflection on his punishment as a doper. The courts should be the ones that decide Lance's fate.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> 1) Genuine Remorse/Contrition
> or
> B) Self Serving Media Event
> 
> Who decides?


He just needs to fart and the media are all over him because he stirs up controversy. It's the media who are self serving.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

love4himies said:


> Everybody shows their emotions differently. Some are very private and others wear their heart on their sleeves, so to speak. Unless you are his confident or his therapist, you probably don't know exactly what he's feeling.
> 
> I do believe he feels that there would be no wins, or even a team to win on, had he and his teammates didn't dope. And that IMHO is not his fault, but the fault of team managers, doctors and officials. He deserves no more or no less than any other doper from that era.
> 
> Now what he did in his business life is a different story and should not have any reflection on his punishment as a doper. The courts should be the ones that decide Lance's fate.


who else did sh!t like this? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40cMEIZiDMw


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> For Lance to find some measure of redemption would require him to show genuine remorse and contrition for the things he's done, not a series of self serving media events. But he doesn't appear to have a contrite bone in his body. So it's going to be hard for him.


Would he have paid less of a price if he were sorry? Probably not. 

Many years ago I recall the forum being mad at Vino because he wasn't sorry. He gets to go out with an Olympic win and manages a team that just won the TdF. I'm sure he's crying inside.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

love4himies said:


> Everybody shows their emotions differently. Some are very private and others wear their heart on their sleeves, so to speak. Unless you are his confident or his therapist, you probably don't know exactly what he's feeling.


While I am no psychiatrist, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. What Lance has shown of his personality in the past indicates the one emotion he demonstrates in public is anger. He lashes out when he feels he is threatened. I think quiet acceptance is about the best we can hope for with him, and that may be a stretch. IF I were one of his advisors, I would keep him bottled up as long as possible, because the general public will eventually soften up and allow him some sort of return if he stays out of the news. Hopefully USADA never does.


love4himies said:


> I do believe he feels that there would be no wins, or even a team to win on, had he and his teammates didn't dope. And that IMHO is not his fault, but the fault of team managers, doctors and officials. He deserves no more or no less than any other doper from that era.


I've always thought that Lance was the perfect storm for the EPO era. He had the win-at-any-cost mentality, a body that was very responsive to doping, the charisma to inspire others, the right DS and doctor, and the resources to make it all happen. There were certainly those who took more EPO than he did (some died from it and others are DSs for Russian-backed teams). I don't think he transfused more blood than anyone else. I think they had a fine-tuned system to maximize the gains, and they exploited the hell out of it. They pushed the limits and got away with it for a long time. Some people find this admirable, being the most efficient doper in a field of dopers. I don't. It's an empty achievement. To say "everyone did it" makes it a yes/no issue, and ignores the varying levels riders were willing to go to in order to remain in the peloton. It also ignores the guys that did it clean, who are currently painted with the same brush as the dopers as part of the "EPO generation". Those are the guys that deserve admiration, but we can't know for sure who they are and have to go on faith. Unfortunately, Lance demonstrated that faith is all too easily misplaced.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Farrar doesn't have the same "win at all costs" attitude and everyone thinks he needs to retire and that they're tougher.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Farrar is well-regarded in Flanders, which kinda trumps the internet when you're talking about hard man credentials.

Never liked him as a rider, possibly partly for his team affiliation, but he has a resume a lot of riders would envy.

Should he hang it up? 
As a sprinter? Yes. His best days are behind him.
As a lead-out man or super-domestique/possible contender for Classics? No. He's still got a lot of miles left in the legs. I think the change of team should have happened a few years ago.

In the end, the market will decide whether or not he has the option to continue, and not a internet forum.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Would he have paid less of a price if he were sorry? Probably not.
> 
> Many years ago I recall the forum being mad at Vino because he wasn't sorry. He gets to go out with an Olympic win and manages a team that just won the TdF. I'm sure he's crying inside.


If Armstrong had confessed, the USADA likely would have reduced his sentence. That could have set him up to run a team, have a Gran Fodo, etc... down the line. 

Vino isn't a good comparison to Armstrong, because Vino only got busted for one instance (so far). It's be better to compare Vino to a guy like Millar.

The rest depends on what you are talking about as "redemption." Do you mean 'sporting bans' or do you mean 'popularity with fans / marketability?' 

Ricco and Hamilton have the same kind of 'sporting ban' - multiple sanctions, resulting in basically career ending bans. But Hamilton has since confessed and seems sincerely contrite. Ricco has never accepted responsibility for his doping. 

So Hamilton can sell books and make media appearances, while Ricco is the butt of "IQ lower than his hemocrit" jokes. 

I'll be interested to hear what comes out about Vino in the CIRC. I dunno, maybe he won't have that gold medal or team forever...


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> 1) Genuine Remorse/Contrition
> or
> B) Self Serving Media Event
> 
> Who decides?


Well, I think each person decides for themselves. When enough people decide a versus b, we get some kind of consensus. But heck, lets do an RBR poll. Why not?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Alaska Mike said:


> Farrar is well-regarded in Flanders, which kinda trumps the internet when you're talking about hard man credentials.
> 
> Never liked him as a rider, possibly partly for his team affiliation, but he has a resume a lot of riders would envy.
> 
> ...


Tyler was perhaps the first clean rider we've had for a while and quite slagged. Cuddles was another possibly clean rider, perhaps one of the only clean GT winners in a long time. 

Inherenrly, the problem is that the competition is willing to win at all costs. Clearly, ya can't always have it both ways. The US cycling sports base wants big wins, but doesn't want to get their hands dirty.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Alaska Mike said:


> While I am no psychiatrist, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. What Lance has shown of his personality in the past indicates the one emotion he demonstrates in public is anger. He lashes out when he feels he is threatened. I think quiet acceptance is about the best we can hope for with him, and that may be a stretch. IF I were one of his advisors, I would keep him bottled up as long as possible, because the general public will eventually soften up and allow him some sort of return if he stays out of the news. Hopefully USADA never does.
> 
> I've always thought that Lance was the perfect storm for the EPO era. He had the win-at-any-cost mentality, a body that was very responsive to doping, the charisma to inspire others, the right DS and doctor, and the resources to make it all happen. There were certainly those who took more EPO than he did (some died from it and others are DSs for Russian-backed teams). I don't think he transfused more blood than anyone else. I think they had a fine-tuned system to maximize the gains, and they exploited the hell out of it. They pushed the limits and got away with it for a long time. Some people find this admirable, being the most efficient doper in a field of dopers. I don't. It's an empty achievement. To say "everyone did it" makes it a yes/no issue, and ignores the varying levels riders were willing to go to in order to remain in the peloton. It also ignores the guys that did it clean, who are currently painted with the same brush as the dopers as part of the "EPO generation". Those are the guys that deserve admiration, but we can't know for sure who they are and have to go on faith. Unfortunately, Lance demonstrated that faith is all too easily misplaced.


I agree with what you say. There is little doubt in my mind that he is NOT sorry for doping. For the reasons I posted above (that was the only way he could win and for the team to stay viable). I do think he MAY be sorry for how he treated people, especially those he was once close to, but that is just my opinion as I am not inside his head to know what he is feeling.

I do think dopers should be punished for the reasons you stated above. I just don't think one should be punished more than others who were at the same level just because of you are an a$$hole (Ryder got nothing. Really, nothing for confessed doping?? DON'T agree to that and I love Ryder. Broke my heart when I learned of it). I do believe that those in positions of authority (management, doctors, team leaders like Lance) should be sanctioned harder than more junior, younger riders.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

spade2you said:


> Meanwhile Contador has 6 GT wins under his belt and would have had 8 if it weren't for Carne Astana.


Carne Astana, yer killing me

he can never redeem being an a hole


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

*what a mess*

Enjoy your schadenfreude, dopers. Lance Armstrong says cycling is still in a mess after drugs confession

From the article it sounds like a few Freds put the hurt on him in a grandfondue. Armstrong _now only rides a bike about once a week, resulting in him suffering in the recent 125km Mike Nosco Bicycle Ride charity event in California.

“The route was very hard, much more than what I expected. I’m not used to these kind of climbs,” he told the website – a digital edition of the Ouest France newspaper.

“I don’t train that much anymore, not more than once a week. And when I do a bike ride, it’s mostly on my mountain bike. And in Austin, where I live, the routes are not as hilly.”_
...
_In an effort to move on with his life, Armstrong continues to attempt to reduce his ban, but admits that he doesn’t follow the cycling scene with much interest any more.

And after the death of his friend Robin Williams, Armstrong insists he is determined to live life to the full, with that mostly being off the bike.
...
“Needless to say that the end of my career was complicated. It is even still a mess… but I’ve moved on from it.

“When you’ve devoted your life to a sport, you realise at the end of your career that you’ve missed a lot. I’ve been trying to make up for lost time, either with my children or by travelling. I’ve also been dedicating time to the fight against cancer.”_


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I watched the 'Stop At Nothing' Docu-what ever that was. Whew, really painted LA for the Douche he is. 

I don't really feel any sorrow for Lemond. They are similar rich douches on some levels, although LA is truly the king. GM is still worth 40million space bucks net worth according to the internets. Can LA really have hurt him the way he plastered the 'little' people. As hard as it appears he tried. [did?]

Maybe because I came from meager starts, the douch-baggery toward the 'little people' and especially Andreaus is pretty sickening. Although I would not say they are poor either, just working middle class folk ?


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Bluenote said:


> +1.....


+2....


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

love4himies said:


> He just needs to fart and the media are all over him because he stirs up controversy. It's the media who are self serving.



True re:fart/media. But the media is just the proxy for the viewers really.

No viewer, no need for a proxy kinda/sorta...


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

robt57 said:


> True re:fart/media. But the media is just the proxy for the viewers really.
> 
> No viewer, no need for a proxy kinda/sorta...


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

Does Vince McMahon have an ownership stake in the UCI?


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## ABR (May 18, 2012)

Asking ourselves the question of whether or not Armstrong can "redeem himself" is to perpetuate the undeserved claim he makes on our attention.

We'll never even know the names of those who we should have talking about all these years instead of Armstrong and his ilk, and that can never be set right. As with any criminal, his redemption is something that should be worked out privately--but with Armstrong of course, even that will be a media event.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

ABR said:


> Asking ourselves the question of whether or not Armstrong can "redeem himself" is to perpetuate the undeserved claim he makes on our attention.
> 
> We'll never even know the names of those who we should have talking about all these years instead of Armstrong and his ilk, and that can never be set right.


It's certainly true that Armstrong took opportunity from others. But he was really only able to take TdF titles from single individuals. And all the runner ups are known dopers too. That isn't to say that everyone in Armstrong's wake was guilty, there was a small handful of innocent victims like Bassons and Emma O'Reilly. 

But your "Armstrong and his ilk," comment extends the range well beyond fellow dopers and a few innocents. What you are talking about is making right with all the clean riders who never made it because of the culture of doping. Armstrong isn't responsible for endemic drug use in cycling, even if he was the worst of the worst.

Asking--or expecting--Armstrong to some how make right with all the victims of doping during the doping era is making him a scapegoat.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Here's a start.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> Here's a start.


That was a great read.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Alaska Mike said:


> Here's a start.


Yes. I've been a Matt Cooke fan since he was on Exergy with a guy I know. Ironically enough, that former friend is now serving a doping suspension. 

In a related story, there's a local 23 year old who is doped to the gills. Many local racers are aware of his doping and still want to be around him, shaking his hand after races or going on training rides with him. Not me, I called him out, reported him to USADA (who did nothing), and ran him off our team. He was quickly scooped up by another team, in-spite of me telling guys that he's on drugs. I wonder why I am the only one to give him grief.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

'Cause you are a Local Hero?


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