# Fill me in cuz I don't get it?



## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

I don't see why everyone, well most people, think Cavendish is an A$$? Sorry, that crash @ Swiss really wasn't his fault or anyones. In my opinion it was just an unfortunate situations. If you look at the video, I see Hausler putting a little shove but I'm sure he was just protecting himself but that shove was enough to create a dominio effect. I also believe they both were crossing each other lines. At that moment, everything was flying so fast, a *slight* turn in a tight situation is hard to control when everyone is fighting for the position. Come on people? Really? I really like both Cav and Haus and I'm not putting a blame on either of them. Before that, I don't believe he's as cocky as everyone makes him to be. I'm open to be wrong here but I've been on top of cylcing news and find it amusing that most cyclists in RBR don't appreciate him. Fill me in, I'm open to be wrong and will look at it with an open mind.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

WAZCO said:


> I don't see why everyone, well most people, think Cavendish is an A$$? Sorry, that crash @ Swiss really wasn't his fault or anyones. In my opinion it was just an unfortunate situations. If you look at the video, I see Hausler putting a little shove but I'm sure he was just protecting himself but that shove was enough to create a dominio effect. I also believe they both were crossing each other lines. At that moment, everything was flying so fast, a *slight* turn in a tight situation is hard to control when everyone is fighting for the position. Come on people? Really? I really like both Cav and Haus and I'm not putting a blame on either of them. Before that, I don't believe he's as cocky as everyone makes him to be. I'm open to be wrong here but I've been on top of cylcing news and find it amusing that most cyclists in RBR don't appreciate him. Fill me in, I'm open to be wrong and will look at it with an open mind.


Because nice people share--you know--like the top spot on the podium! Now losing--that's something different. It's what nice people do!


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## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> Because nice people share--you know--like the top spot on the podium! Now losing--that's something different. It's what nice people do!


Could you be a little more specific? Like I said, I'm here w/ an open mind and that response is not enough to convince me otherwise.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Maybe cause Cav spit on Haussler while he was still down? Maybe cause he's shown time and time again that he's got no respect for anyone?


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## redlizard (Jul 26, 2007)

I don't believe the dislike is limited to RBR. :thumbsup: 

The video I see (and apparently the one the race officials viewed) shows Cav moving *all* the way from the right side to the left. Denial - it ain't just a river in Africa.

Let's try this another way....what has he done in the last year to make anyone want to like him?? Caused crash, spit on Haus, thump his chest, piss & moan, make excuses, drop out mid-race...even played the grandma card. 

He needs to apprentice under Jens Voight for a season.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

Its his general lack of humility that gets to me. His lack of respect makes me not want to like him.


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## ghost6 (Sep 4, 2009)

Cavendish didn't make a "slight" turn. He was out of line and caused the crash. I agree with redlizard.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

WAZCO said:


> Could you be a little more specific? Like I said, I'm here w/ an open mind and that response is not enough to convince me otherwise.


The truth is, everybody hates a winner. Win once or twice and the masses will respect you. Win consistently and they will manufacture reasons to hate you. Winning eventually becomes a lonely endeavor--especially when your inevitable weakness begins to show. 

From the actual evidence and what I have seen, Cav is about as nice a guy as you are likely to meet.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Look, lots of bike racers are totally different people "off the bike" as opposed to the last kilometer. 

And, it's easy to be a nice guy "off the bike". But in the last K, we find out who's going to step over the line for the sake of a win. 

That's why Cav is an ass.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

SwiftSolo said:


> The truth is, everybody hates a winner.


Not all winners are hated. Roger Federer and Tiger Woods (prior to scandal) come to mind as two sportsman who consistently win but aren't hated.

Champions who win and loose with the same grace will always be respected. Winners who are bad losers become there own worst enemies.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

Cav has raw talent, but lacks maturity. Cipo was sort of a yam bag too on the bike, but did it with fine Italian style.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

I'm with you.

Ive held my hands previously but there were cyclists, a lot of cyclists all over the place and far more aggressive only seconds before he final sprinters formed the lead. Watch the video, there's at least 3 guys back there who are weaving literally 5 feet left to right and back. Cav weaved about a foot or less to his left before the accident happened. This is far from an intentional block. Given the fact that it is a pro tour, these other so called sprinters should have had their act together and reacted accordingly but I digress, accidents do happen.

Here is how I see it. Its exactly like a rear end accident in an automobile. Regardless if I brake checked you, regardless if I went from 60mph to a grinding halt in the snow, if you rear end me, you are at fault. You should be aware and responsive in the car, and as a pro level cyclist and sprinter.

Cav was in the lead at the time the accident occurred. We know he was in *front* because the guy behind him ran over his wheel. Cav didn't run over his own wheel and cause an accident because he was in the *front*, he was #1. When you are in the front, you can't very well look behind you during a 35 mph sprint to see what else is going on in the *back*.

Lets face it, the chest pounding two finger salute is what Cav is paying for, this was just an excuse to humble him. I looked at the video's, Ive read the comments and Ive seen the illustrations. Fact remains Cav was not any more out of line then any of the other sprinters. Fact is, someone ran over Cav's wheel and broke it in half, not because of Cav, because someone else didn't have the good sense to sprint, weave, avoid and do what it takes to be the #1 sprinter.

But this was clearly an unfortunate accident and a part of racing. To blame Cavendish entirely is unfair but hopefully everyone learned a lesson. Hopefully Cav is a little more refined and does not give up good legs. Hopefully the rest of the field will "respect" the person who is up front, or, they can just run over another wheel and cry unfair on the next grand spill.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

I got to talk to Cav a couple of times at the Tour of MO. He was nice to me and the rest of the crowd. Much more so that some of the other pros around at the same time. Yes he can be brash and cocky. Many winners are. I'll stay a fan.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

dougydee said:


> Not all winners are hated. Roger Federer and Tiger Woods (prior to scandal) come to mind as two sportsman who consistently win but aren't hated.
> 
> Champions who win and loose with the same grace will always be respected. Winners who are bad losers become there own worst enemies.


Some responses to the question "why do people hate Roger Federer" resulting from a simple search. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080512054753AAmGb6l

_"Obviously you have either never watched a post match press conference after a loss or you have watched with rose colored glasses. Federer will NEVER and I mean NEVER outright compliment his opponent's play when he has lost nor does he outright accept defeat graciously. Any acknowledgment of his opponent's play in defeating him is always a back handed compliment at best and he never accepts defeat based on the merit of his opponent or his poor play on a given day. As far as Federer is concerned, every time he loses there is an excuse. The sun, the noise, the ref, a mysterious illness that is never mentioned until he loses .....on and on it goes. Federer comes off as smug, arrogant, and way too full of himself. None of us are in the locker room and yes, he is regarded as one of the more friendly players on the tour. Got me !! All I know is that long ago, back when he hadn't won a thing yet, I was a big Federer fan. The bloom came off that rose really quickly. I will say it: I can't stand the sight of him. I couldn't be more pleased with his results in 2008 so far. Maybe he started believing his own press and thought he walked on water. Oops, I just heard a resounding splash "_

2nd response:
_"I'd have to agree with a lot of what Bleeding Pinstripes has said. Federer is a very gracious winner but he is a sore loser, most of the time. His interview after his loss to Djokovic at the Aust Open was a disgrace to his reputation and to the tournament - (talking about not watching the final and not caring about result..) No one likes to lose, esp when you are No.1 but don't be disrespectful. I don't hate him though. i just don't think he's as 'nice' as people may think."_

*Remember this truism: "show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser"*


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Too many of his distasteful antics. Crashing into Haussler the most recent example. But also things like pointing at his crotch while he crossed the line as winner didn't help build a good reputation.


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

dougydee said:


> Its his general lack of humility that gets to me. His lack of respect makes me not want to like him.


But your description fits Lance, to my mind at least, perfectly, yet people love him. 

There's a nice opinion piece on Cav here: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/474216/the-wednesday-comment.html

I don't have a strong opinion on Cav really, but I really dislike the modern tendency to believe that making bland, media friendly comments in interviews is a virtue, and I like it that Cav doesn't


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

moabbiker said:


> Too many of his distasteful antics. Crashing into Haussler the most recent example. But also things like pointing at his crotch while he crossed the line as winner didn't help build a good reputation.


this one stuck out to me as pretty classless.

I do think the refs/organizers look at his sprints with a fine tooth comb compared to others though.

Chad


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

*No class*



redlizard said:


> I don't believe the dislike is limited to RBR. :thumbsup:
> 
> The video I see (and apparently the one the race officials viewed) shows Cav moving *all* the way from the right side to the left. Denial - it ain't just a river in Africa.
> 
> ...


You forgot the "FU all" gesture. Mario would celebrate a win with class, make you happy for him. Mark's celebrations come off as disrespectful. He turns off fans for the same reasons Terrel Owens turned off fans. You like watching him sprint, but you get turned off when he wins.


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## redlizard (Jul 26, 2007)

Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Joe Montana, Greg Norman

Michael Tyson, Barry Bonds, Terrell Owens, Dennis Rodman

See the difference here? Class vs a$$.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

Jesse D Smith said:


> You forgot the "FU all" gesture. Mario would celebrate a win with class, make you happy for him. Mark's celebrations come off as disrespectful. He turns off fans for the same reasons Terrel Owens turned off fans. You like watching him sprint, but you get turned off when he wins.


What is he doing int he 1st picture?

and is the last picture suppose to be the "bird"?

Chad


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

moabbiker said:


> Too many of his distasteful antics. Crashing into Haussler the most recent example. But also things like pointing at his crotch while he crossed the line as winner didn't help build a good reputation.


Apparently the result of a bet with DZ who markets chamois cream DZ Nuts.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Nimitz said:


> What is he doing int he 1st picture?
> 
> and is the last picture suppose to be the "bird"?
> 
> Chad


Cleaning his Oakleys in the first.
Last one is an old English expression that predates "the bird" by several centuries. The two fingered salute originated at Agincourt as a result of the French threat to cut off the index and middle fingers of any English archer they captured. Hence the taunting salute. Now it just means F*** Off!


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

just noticed that Thor H. was already downshifting in that 2nd picture.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

ultimobici said:


> Cleaning his Oakleys in the first.
> Last one is an old English expression that predates "the bird" by several centuries. The two fingered salute originated at Agincourt as a result of the French threat to cut off the index and middle fingers of any English archer they captured. Hence the taunting salute. Now it just means F*** Off!



thanks I learned something:thumbsup: 

Chad


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

He just seems a jerk! "Cocky" is not attractive likable behavior, it is just plain arrogance and mean-spiritedness. 

So what if you are a really fast sprinter? Does that excuse you from being a good fellow? "Mee Mee me....It's all about ME!" That's what I get from Cavendish's public persona...

This "Winners are all in a class by themselves...that is why they are winners" BS is a sad commentary on how some people think. Dirt-bag behavior is excusable behavior, as long as it gets you the win? That's why we have problems with PEDs. That is why Cav went all the way across that street to bump Hausler, who 'dared' to match him in a sprint..

He should also learn to finish stage races. Totally de-classe when a strong guy like him quits cause he gets dropped on climbs..Maybe he should take up Kirin or track racing. Or professional wrestling. Or drive a NASCAR...


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## ghost6 (Sep 4, 2009)

carbonLORD said:


> Fact is, someone ran over Cav's wheel and broke it in half, not because of Cav, because someone else didn't have the good sense to sprint, weave, avoid and do what it takes to be the #1 sprinter.



To me, it's clear that Cavendish veered from left to right. As a result, Cavendish collided with Hausler who was holding his line. I'd argue that Cavendish's veering caused the crash. Hausler "ran over his wheel" because Cavendish "ran over" into Hausler's line. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RNAYR3KPIg


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

*This is not NASCAR*



ghost6 said:


> To me, it's clear that Cavendish veered from left to right. As a result, Cavendish collided with Hausler who was holding his line. I'd argue that Cavendish's veering caused the crash. Hausler "ran over his wheel" because Cavendish "ran over" into Hausler's line.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RNAYR3KPIg


This is not NASCAR where you hold a line in a corner. This is a sprint, Hausler did not react, he basically did what Danica Patrick constantly does which is hold a line and run into someone instead of making the necessary adjustments to get to the finish line.

Danica constantly holds her line to the point that she crashes out of every race, then blames the other guy because she didn't make corrections or use tact.

If someone veers into my path, I make an adjustment. This is a bicycle race and a sprint no less. If Cav ran over Hauslers wheel I bet he still would have been to blame, because he was being penalized for previous actions IMO.

Hausler and Danica should go on a date.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> The truth is, everybody hates a winner. Win once or twice and the masses will respect you. Win consistently and they will manufacture reasons to hate you. Winning eventually becomes a lonely endeavor--especially when your inevitable weakness begins to show.
> 
> From the actual evidence and what I have seen, Cav is about as nice a guy as you are likely to meet.


I really like Cav. Cippo was arrogant too, btw - whoever said he had "class" needs to go back to some of the stuff he pulled off. So was McEwen - who was crossing lines and causing crashes left and right in his prime, and then blamed others. It's ironic that McEwen is now outraged at Cav's crash (which was 60% Cav's fault and 40% Haussler's - watch it again, people). Arrogance is often part of sprinter attitude, and part of it is confidence needed to win. Maybe Thor, Farrar or Petacchi would win more races if they were as cocky/arrogant/self-confident as Cav. To win a sprint you have to be able to go a little berserk.

I think last year's TdF stage wins by Cav were incredible, culminated with a great final stage win. I hope he is in the same shape this year - I watch the tour for athletic feats and competition, not to find out who is the most polite and nicest guy in the peloton so that we can award green jersey to that person.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

If the accounts are true that Cav spit on Hausler while he was laying there then that pretty much settles it for me. Completely assish and one's true colors come out in the heat of the battle. Now if he were to humble himself and say he was wrong and apologize to Hausler it would go pretty far to ameliorate some of the ill will going his way.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

He's a winner. 
This season he looks vulnerable, as a result of cosmetic dental work, this gives his critics hope - forlorn in my opinion.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

55x11 said:


> It's ironic that McEwen is now outraged at Cav's crash (which was 60% Cav's fault and 40% Haussler's - watch it again, people).


It's an utter fallacy that McEwen was "outraged" at Cav's crash. McEwen mentioned the *spitting on Haussler* as problematic and the reason for the protest, not the crash _per se_, which he acknowledged happens sometimes.

And 9 out of 10 people watching that video see that Cav veered off his line several times more than Haussler did. Cav was trying to block Ciolek, which he certainly accomplished.

It's also important to note that Cav was the one penalized by the race officials, not Haussler.


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## empty_set (Nov 1, 2006)

WAZCO said:


> I don't see why everyone, well most people, think Cavendish is an A$$? Sorry, that crash @ Swiss really wasn't his fault or anyones. In my opinion it was just an unfortunate situations. If you look at the video, I see Hausler putting a little shove but I'm sure he was just protecting himself but that shove was enough to create a dominio effect. I also believe they both were crossing each other lines. At that moment, everything was flying so fast, a *slight* turn in a tight situation is hard to control when everyone is fighting for the position. Come on people? Really? I really like both Cav and Haus and I'm not putting a blame on either of them. Before that, I don't believe he's as cocky as everyone makes him to be. I'm open to be wrong here but I've been on top of cylcing news and find it amusing that most cyclists in RBR don't appreciate him. Fill me in, I'm open to be wrong and will look at it with an open mind.


He has the palmares, no doubt. But, in order to be appreciated as a winner, it takes a bit of class to back up the sass. Frankly, I don't think Cavendish has any yet. If you're gonna act like a dick, be prepared to be treated like one.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

If you haven't seen all of the disrespect Cavendish has offered to the sport and his fellow competitors, you haven't been watching.

I will admit that domestic US sport is pretty uptight, but he'd have been penalized many more times.


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## ghost6 (Sep 4, 2009)

carbonLORD said:


> This is not NASCAR where you hold a line in a corner. This is a sprint, Hausler did not react, he basically did what Danica Patrick constantly does which is hold a line and run into someone instead of making the necessary adjustments to get to the finish line.
> 
> Danica constantly holds her line to the point that she crashes out of every race, then blames the other guy because she didn't make corrections or use tact.
> 
> ...


I get your point that you're a Cavendish fan. I'm not sure what you mean by "hold a line in a corner" since they weren't anywhere near or in a corner. On this sprint, Cavendish looks like a bull in a china shop. At the crash point, none of the other sprinters were veering like Cavendish. So your Danica Patrick parallel doesn't work unless you want to call all of them Danica Patrick. There's a difference between being aggressive and careless in a sprint. The video shows a careless rider who caused a crash and was fined and penalized as a result.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> The truth is, everybody hates a winner. Win once or twice and the masses will respect you. Win consistently and they will manufacture reasons to hate you. Winning eventually becomes a lonely endeavor--especially when your inevitable weakness begins to show.
> 
> From the actual evidence and what I have seen, Cav is about as nice a guy as you are likely to meet.


Everyone hates Eddy Merckx?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

carbonLORD[B said:


> ]This is not NASCAR where you hold a line in a corner[/B]. This is a sprint, Hausler did not react, he basically did what Danica Patrick constantly does which is hold a line and run into someone instead of making the necessary adjustments to get to the finish line.
> 
> Danica constantly holds her line to the point that she crashes out of every race, then blames the other guy because she didn't make corrections or use tact.
> 
> ...


all your argument is wrong

in Pro Cycling there are rules for a field sprint. You can't put in danger the other sprinters, you MUST hold your line and don't obstruct the others...

He was already penalized for doing the same on the last TDF, the guy never learns.


check it out here from 4:30 and onwards


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> all your argument is wrong
> 
> in Pro Cycling there are rules for a field sprint. You can't put in danger the other sprinters, you MUST hold your line and don't obstruct the others...
> 
> He was already penalized for doing the same on the last TDF, the guy never learns.


I agree with the TDF but just don't see him intentionally, or overstating his position any more then the rest of the field in stage 4's incident, but we all have our opinions.

...and FTR I'm not a Cav fan, but I don't dislike the fella either. Just calling it like "I" see it.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Pointing at his crotch
Giving the bird
Spitting on Haussler
Immature 
Whining over losses

I used to like Cavendish but not any more. I think he's a fast, talented, immature, classless jerk.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

carbonLORD said:


> I agree with the TDF but just don't see him intentionally, or overstating his position any more then the rest of the field in stage 4's incident, but we all have our opinions.
> 
> ...and FTR I'm not a Cav fan, but I don't dislike the fella either. Just calling it like "I" see it.


Then you're seeing it wrong.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

You forgot "making excuses".
Other than that, I'm with you- I want to like him. He's unbelievably talented, but really showing himself to be an ass.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

jorgy said:


> It's an utter fallacy that McEwen was "outraged" at Cav's crash. McEwen mentioned the *spitting on Haussler* as problematic and the reason for the protest, not the crash _per se_, which he acknowledged happens sometimes.
> 
> And 9 out of 10 people watching that video see that Cav veered off his line several times more than Haussler did. Cav was trying to block Ciolek, which he certainly accomplished.
> 
> It's also important to note that Cav was the one penalized by the race officials, not Haussler.


9 out of 10 people? "Several times more than Haussler"? Really?
They were both on each side of Ciolek, both went around him, merged and cut-off Ciolek and collided almost precisely in front of Ciolek, maybe slightly to his left. Haussler did at least 40% of the merging, with Cav doing the remaining 60%. "Several times more" is equally as ridiculous as saying that Haussler deserves all the blame. Look at the photos below and note the location of Ciolek.










https://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9856/fullscreencapture625201.png


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

mmm.... not really ... see the trayectories here, Haussler was just holding his line and even riding away Cav











picture from www.velominati.com


https://www.velominati.com/blog/velominati-super-prestige/velominati-super-prestige-tour-de-suisse/


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

RRRoubaix said:


> You forgot "making excuses".
> Other than that, I'm with you- I want to like him. He's unbelievably talented, but really showing himself to be an ass.


I think that pretty much sums it up. 

Also, keep in mind, Robbi McEwen has mellowed with age. He has had plenty of irregular sprints and had a pretty quick temper back in the day.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

But McEwen pulled wheelies!


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Despite their humungous size, those pictures don't prove your point.

In fact, the arrow appears to be not pointing straight ahead and, instead, points to the right. That little _trump l'oeil _makes it appear like Cav veered less than he really did and Haussler more than he really did.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> mmm.... not really ... see the trayectories here, Haussler was just holding his line and even riding away Cav
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please spare us this tired, poorly stitched picture. My grandfather can do a better job with Photoshop, srsly.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

jorgy said:


> Despite their humungous size, those pictures don't prove your point.
> 
> In fact, the arrow appears to be not pointing straight ahead and, instead, points to the right. That little _trump l'oeil _makes it appear like Cav veered less than he really did and Haussler more than he really did.


Sorry, but that just shows your bias, as the arrows are *precisely* vertical, as this is how software does it by default. If you really want the arrow to be pointing to the right and you stare at it for a long time, then surely enough, the arrow points to the right. Just like if you really want to blame Cav 100%, you can rationalize it away.

Forget the arrows, just note the relative position of Cav and Hessler with respect to Ciolek in the "before" photo, and then where they ended up colliding (right in front of him). Cav moves to left, Hessler moves almost (but not quite) equal amount to the right.

In your photos Ciolek *also* moves to the left, as does everyone else, but it's the relative motion that matters in this situation.

Don't take my word for it - Paul Sherwen said basically the same thing, but he may just be one of those 1 out of 10 people who know nothing about cycling.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

dont forget, he was relegated during last years tour fro dangerous riding.

he is also brash, which many people find irritating.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> The truth is, everybody hates a winner. Win once or twice and the masses will respect you. Win consistently and they will manufacture reasons to hate you. Winning eventually becomes a lonely endeavor--especially when your inevitable weakness begins to show.
> 
> From the actual evidence and what I have seen, Cav is about as nice a guy as you are likely to meet.


Yeah, everybody hated Erik Zabel and Sean Kelly.


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## smoo (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe it's just because my formative years were in the punk era, but I quite like a bit of harmless disrespect now and again. Often people take offence at things for no real reason (or because of their own insecurities) while calmly accepting other things that are genuinely offensive. It's good to have people who challenge this now and again by pushing the boundaries. It kind of annoys me that cav was pulled out of a race just for giving the two fingers, it's not as if it was racist, symbolic of any other genuinely offensive opinions or directed at any individual in particular. Sure, some people are bound not to like it, but so what? Cav isn't a lout (unlike many footballers for instance), he seems to be a mostly pleasant, considerate, thoughtful person who happens to have a fiery temperament and doesn't hide behind a public persona. I can think of plenty other people in the pelaton I'd sooner dislike, or at least be suspicious of. Maybe the TdS crash was mostly his fault, maybe it wasn't, but it was an accident and if it had been anyone else they wouldn't have got so much stick for it.


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## loubnc (May 8, 2008)

The best part of the crash is at the end of the video is when Boonen seems to "aim" directly for Cav's head while stopping.:thumbsup:


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

rufus said:


> Yeah, everybody hated Erik Zabel and Sean Kelly.


Eric Vanderaerden wasn't Kelly's biggest fan. 1985 Tour stage in Rheims saw both of them relegated to the back of the pack for fighting during the sprint.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

This is what I don't understand - if Cavendish actually spat on Hausler in the finishing straight, how come there doesn't appear to be a single clip of it online? This allegedly occurred in an area that was covered by a multitude of cameras and yet no mention of it from any official source? I call BS.


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## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

smoo said:


> Maybe it's just because my formative years were in the punk era, but I quite like a bit of harmless disrespect now and again.


It's not just now and again. It's all the time, in the race, after the race, in print...

I get that you don't have to give everyone so much respect that you leave yourself open to be beat, but a little humility goes a long way.

Until Cav goes out on the attack and steals a stage win the way HH did (without hiding behind a train), he will never command the same respect for talent from me that I have for others.


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## smoo (Sep 20, 2007)

> Until Cav goes out on the attack and steals a stage win the way HH did (without hiding behind a train), he will never command the same respect for talent from me that I have for others.


That's just daft, Cav is 100% a pure sprinter, Haussler is a sprinter / classics specialist. You may as well just say you don't have respect for pure sprinters, because Cavendish is certainly the most talented one around at the moment.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

The Weasel said:


> It's not just now and again. It's all the time, in the race, after the race, in print...
> 
> I get that you don't have to give everyone so much respect that you leave yourself open to be beat, but a little humility goes a long way.
> 
> Until Cav goes out on the attack and steals a stage win the way HH did (without hiding behind a train), he will never command the same respect for talent from me that I have for others.


Huh?
Cippolini
Bontempi
Hoste
Zabel
Abdoujaparov 
McEwen

All sprinters, not noted for jumping away from the peleton without a leadout of some sort, all incredible talents. And for the record, I can't stand McEwen, but respect him as a rider just as I do Cavendish.

Plus, if you compare their respective records in the Tour, Cavendish has won 10 stages in only 3 attempts. Contrast that with the rest and it is interesting

Cavendish 10 from 3
Cippolini 12 from 6
Bontempi 6 from 4
Hoste 5 from 3
Zabel 12 from 6+
Abdoujaparov 9 from 6
McEwen 12 from 11


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## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

ultimobici said:


> Huh?
> Cippolini
> Bontempi
> Hoste
> ...


What do you want me to say? I agree they are all talented. But in my mind if you are a more vesitile rider and can win both bunch sprints and escape to victory, like Hausler or a Boonan, you deserve more credit and are more multitalented. I wasn't around for a bunch of those named (in their prime), so I can't speak much to them.

And this is still more about Cav being a general a-hole. There is a fine line between confidence and cockiness.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

The Weasel said:


> What do you want me to say? I agree they are all talented. But in my mind if you are a more vesitile rider and can win both bunch sprints and escape to victory, like Hausler or a Boonan, you deserve more credit and are more multitalented. I wasn't around for a bunch of those named (in their prime), so I can't speak much to them.
> 
> And this is still more about Cav being a general a-hole. There is a fine line between confidence and cockiness.


You might want to look up the history of the Green Jersey contenders. Cippo & Abdu were at each other's throats with threats etc. Abdu was renowned for his head down charge for the line that precluded him seeing even giant Coke bottles in hi path! Kelly & Vanderaerden were DQ'd for a fist fight ON the bike in the finishing straight at 60kmh. None of them had won a Monument at 25 let alone 23. Kelly was 27 and Cippo was 30 odd. Only Vanderaerden won big that early with 3 stages by the age of 22 and the epic 1985 Ronde at 23. But he was also a grade A prima donna to boot and was fired from one of his later teams for braking into the hotel kitchen for a midnight feast!

Off the bike Cav is anything but a ********. He comes across as a shy and somewhat starstruck lad. On the bike he takes risks, but he has caused few crashes to my knowledge. As for the spitting allegation - show me the film. No pics, no case.


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## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

ultimobici said:


> You might want to look up the history of the Green Jersey contenders. Cippo & Abdu were at each other's throats with threats etc. Abdu was renowned for his head down charge for the line that precluded him seeing even giant Coke bottles in hi path! Kelly & Vanderaerden were DQ'd for a fist fight ON the bike in the finishing straight at 60kmh. None of them had won a Monument at 25 let alone 23. Kelly was 27 and Cippo was 30 odd. Only Vanderaerden won big that early with 3 stages by the age of 22 and the epic 1985 Ronde at 23. But he was also a grade A prima donna to boot and was fired from one of his later teams for braking into the hotel kitchen for a midnight feast!
> 
> Off the bike Cav is anything but a ********. He comes across as a shy and somewhat starstruck lad. On the bike he takes risks, but he has caused few crashes to my knowledge. As for the spitting allegation - show me the film. No pics, no case.


I don't need to look up anything as this lesson in history has nothing to do with the topic at hand (but thank you for the interesting note). All I have is Cavendish's actions and words to formulate my own opinion, and it is not very high.
Everybody has their own opinion and they are not easily changed. By Cav's own words, he has never been shy about talking himself up and talking down about others. That's not a good character quality in my book.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

The Weasel said:


> I don't need to look up anything as this lesson in history has nothing to do with the topic at hand (but thank you for the interesting note). All I have is Cavendish's actions and words to formulate my own opinion, and it is not very high.
> Everybody has their own opinion and they are not easily changed. By Cav's own words, he has never been shy about talking himself up and talking down about others. That's not a good character quality in my book.


I think the point that ultimobici is trying to make is that sprinters are generally often cocky and brash (not just in cycling by the way - does anyone follow track and field?), and the relative young age of Cavendish and huge success he had at this age may be partially attributable to his interviews and trash-talking. I don't think people should be using pro athletes for moral guidance, and since I watch and enjoy pro cycling primarily for its entertainment value, I think Cavendish is great, and trash-talking raises the stakes. 

As for being a "vesitile rider" (sic) such as "Hausler or a Boonan" (sic), I must agree with other posters - Cavendish is a pure sprinter, and you have to respect his skill just like one respects Contador's or Sastre's climbing skills or Cancellara's time trialing ability. Cavendish does not go in solo breakaways or tries to escape the peloton for the same reason he doesn't attack in the mountains or attempts to win 40K time trials - he is best as what he does best. It's probably the same reason Sastre or Contador don't content the sprints. I have nothing against versatility in general, and Hushovd's solos in the mountains was quite impressive (albeit traditionally unnecessary for keeping the green), but to imply that somehow Cavendish is not a complete sprinter until he wins in a solo breakaway in the last km is bogus argument to make.

If anything, one could argue that the precise reason Hushovd felt he needed to collect those sprint points on mountain stage is that he conceded that he cannot possibly beat Cavendish head-to-head in a bunch sprint.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

55x11 said:


> I think the point that ultimobici is trying to make is that sprinters are generally often cocky and brash (not just in cycling by the way - does anyone follow track and field?), and the relative young age of Cavendish and huge success he had at this age may be partially attributable to his interviews and trash-talking. I don't think people should be using pro athletes for moral guidance, and since I watch and enjoy pro cycling primarily for its entertainment value, I think Cavendish is great, and trash-talking raises the stakes.
> 
> As for being a "vesitile rider" (sic) such as "Hausler or a Boonan" (sic), I must agree with other posters - Cavendish is a pure sprinter, and you have to respect his skill just like one respects Contador's or Sastre's climbing skills or Cancellara's time trialing ability. Cavendish does not go in solo breakaways or tries to escape the peloton for the same reason he doesn't attack in the mountains or attempts to win 40K time trials - he is best as what he does best. It's probably the same reason Sastre or Contador don't content the sprints. I have nothing against versatility in general, and Hushovd's solos in the mountains was quite impressive (albeit traditionally unnecessary for keeping the green), but to imply that somehow Cavendish is not a complete sprinter until he wins in a solo breakaway in the last km is bogus argument to make.
> 
> If anything, one could argue that the precise reason Hushovd felt he needed to collect those sprint points on mountain stage is that he conceded that he cannot possibly beat Cavendish head-to-head in a bunch sprint.


Exactly. Thankyou.


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## wheezer (Sep 21, 2004)

Forget about the John Madden lines and just look at the ones painted on the side of the road. The one Haussler is on in the last 200 m. is clearly a straight one (I know ity's rounded before but becomes dead straight at the last 200 m) and HH clearly stays true to his line. Cav comes ALL THE WAY over from his line and takes him out. There's a word for that. It's called douchebag.


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