# Why the hate for disc brakes? (serious)



## JasonC71 (May 3, 2015)

Hi...disclosure time...I am a long time mountan biker that has recently been bitten by the road bug. I am curious as to why there is so much push back towards disc brakes on road bikes.

I know that there are threads about the topic, but I was interested in a discussion about CURRENT tech, as well as tech that is coming within say the next year.

Honestly...and again coming from the mtb world...I have yet to ride a road bike that has the modulation or stopping power of something on the level of xt or xtr brakes. 

That said, I know that I'm comparing apples to oranges, and I really do want to understand.

Thanks for answering (if you do lol), and if this should be in the beginner forum, I apologize....move away.

Oh...and no matter what...have fun on your bike.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

simple, they're completely unnecessary.

it's just a marketing ploy to provide something that's 'new and improved'...


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## JasonC71 (May 3, 2015)

Fair enough. 

But what makes them unnecessary?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

JasonC71 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But what makes them unnecessary?


Any rim brake, properly setup, can exert enough stopping power to throw you over the handlebars.

The only real advantage is for high-mileage users who actually wear out their rims by wearing through the brake track.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

JasonC71 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But what makes them unnecessary?


Because when I'm racing my bike, I want to use my brakes to modulate my speed *just a little*. Conserving is the name of the game. I don't need to drag brakes all over the place, nor do I need to drag brakes down descents. 

I've never had a situation where I've wished for stronger brakes than the curren calipers, even on carbon rims.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

dont hate... just get tired of people saying they are flat out better in all situations.. tuned out of thread now, before they come.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Agree. There are too many people trying to convince discs are better for everyone.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

I'm not convinced that disk brakes are in fact better for 99 percent of the riding that I do. I'll grant you that a disk is probably the killer set up for 'cross (mud, etc.), or on a really wet ride with a fast descent...but for road riding a good rim brake gets it done with less weight, less complication, less expense, and equal performance.

Actually, the one thing that sort of freaks me out about disk brakes is the fact the braking force is applied to the hub...which transfers the braking force to the rim/tire by loading half the spokes and unloading the other half... I gotta think that wheel life has to suffer compared to a rim brake...or that you could induce a marginal rim to collapse from the rotational "pull" inward on the spokes. Just a guess, however.


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## JasonC71 (May 3, 2015)

lol. Sorry for the question ....I dunno who "they" are, but I guess I'll find out. 

In all honesty, I'm not asking to stir anything up...just trying to understand the differences as I incorporate road riding into my life.

Cheers!


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

It's not that disc brakes are hated, it's just excess anything is looked down upon. Bicycles should be simple machines, but companies, in their quest to rake in more money, shove various BB standards, head tube diameters, electronic shifting, disc brakes, etc., in our faces and claim they will help make us faster, or feel better on our bikes. Yes, there will always be those retro grouches that say disc brakes on road bikes look awful, but honestly, for the vast majority a simple bike with rim brakes, a square taper BB, and 1" head tube is all we need.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

They are non-traditional, goofy and scream Fred on a road bike and as others have said unnecessary.
They also add dish to the front wheel.
There seems to be a fad right now towards what people call " gravel bikes".
I suppose it could be fun for some, but I prefer to ride on paved roads.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

stanseven said:


> Agree. There are too many people trying to convince discs are better for everyone.


Most of them are probably getting paid.


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## crossracer01 (Apr 21, 2015)

thru axles front and rear I can see a nice gain since it should tie the bike together well. Disk brakes where I live would be a waste. 
In heavy rain locations I could see the need , but for the most part it's all marketing. Imho


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm from Missouri and a Luddite.
I haven't seen a compelling reason and caliper brakes work for me and are hassle free. If i had to bleed my brakes I'd probably smash the bike in frustration.

I also have a very skeptical view of most everything. The guys pushing disc brakes in my mind fall into those looking to sell new bikes or users looking to see others follow them so they can get affirmation over their own decision.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Even thru-axles are unnecessary for the vast majority of road bikes. They predate quick releases (the earliest I've seen personally was an 1893 Wright Brothers bike with a front thru-axle) and they still have not conquered the market.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

JasonC71 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But what makes them unnecessary?


If i routinely did major climbs and descents with significant mileage , more than what i see here. Caliper brakes can heat the rims. But nothing in NY even comes close to needing that.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

crossracer01 said:


> but for the most part it's all marketing. Imho


I agree and I started out my cycling hobby on mountain bikes with disc brakes for years before I got into road riding. I live in an area with several 40-50mph descents 8-15 miles long and I've never felt the need for anything stronger than my caliper brakes.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

crossracer01 said:


> thru axles front and rear I can see a nice gain since it should tie the bike together well. Disk brakes where I live would be a waste.
> In heavy rain locations I could see the need , but for the most part it's all marketing. Imho



plus 1


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## JasonC71 (May 3, 2015)

Thanks guys. I'm guessing I need to upgrade the brakes on my bike. Currently...well they suck. Both modulation and stopping power are a joke vs my mtb. Granted, the mtb is oufitted with xt and ice tech rotors...so one finger stopping and modulation is very real on that bike. My road bike? Not so much.

I will continue the discussion in beginners on what to get. Thanks.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

JasonC71 said:


> Thanks guys. I'm guessing I need to upgrade the brakes on my bike. Currently...well they suck. Both modulation and stopping power are a joke vs my mtb. Granted, the mtb is oufitted with xt and ice tech rotors...so one finger stopping and modulation is very real on that bike. My road bike? Not so much.
> 
> I will continue the discussion in beginners on what to get. Thanks.


My race bike uses Ultegra Di2 levers, Shimano brake cable/housing and Ultegra calipers. 

Even with a carbon rim, it's single finger braking for all but the biggest panic situations.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Still, despite how many of us feel, it's your money and your bike. Get what you want. I would never poke fun at disc brakes, PF BBs, or suspension on a road bike. The important thing is that no one should assert their superiority over other options. And that's the problem, companies introduce new tech and the whole industry runs off with it, leaving tried and trued stuff in the dust. I think that's why many of us are so apprehensive to begin with.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Tachycardic said:


> I would never poke fun at disc brakes, PF BBs, or suspension on a road bike. T


I do....but only when they prove to work terribly in practice. I.e. PF BBs that creak no matter what you do...or disc brakes that screech loud enough to wake the dead when used.


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## PMC (Jan 29, 2004)

I have the 11 speed Shimano 685 Hydro levers and brakes on my gravel race bike and they're spectacular. You should get a road bike with those and you'll be happy as you'll ever be with your brakes going forward.

For my road bike I'll stick with rim brakes as they work just fine and are lighter.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

JasonC71 said:


> Thanks guys. I'm guessing I need to upgrade the brakes on my bike. Currently...well they suck. Both modulation and stopping power are a joke vs my mtb. .


Depeding on what you have now, a significant improvement may be as inexpensive and easy as better pads. OEM pads on many otherwise good calipers are poor performers, and upgrading to something like Kool Stop salmon can be a huge improvement.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

in a similar vein, check out the thread on full-suspension road bikes.

mfgs have to keep coming up with new gee-whiz stuff to sell the to rubes...


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

JasonC71 said:


> I am a long time mountan biker that has recently been bitten by the road bug. I am curious as to why there is so much push back towards disc brakes on road bikes.


I use rim brakes but have no ill will or negative feelings toward disc brakes or those that think they or better or prefer them over rim brakes for whatever reason. (I do think that when buying a new production road-bike that amount of extra cost they charge for disc brakes on the otherwise same model is ridiculously steep.)

"The more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain" is in general a pretty good philosophy for me. But that's just me. And it's a general standard not an absolute. 

A road bike by my standards IMO can't stop worth a damn under the best of circumstances anyway regardless of whether you have disc or rim brakes. Each type though offer different advantages over the other in different circumstances. However, when it comes to stopping whether or not it's a car, motorcycle or bicycle the less rubber you have on the road the quicker things can go wrong in stopping and in certain types of cornering. 

But you are right, some folks whether its cyclists or people in general get "emotional" and "personal" over simple individual choices others make that are different from theirs. From that minority class of people comes the "haters."


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## SwimCycle09 (Apr 22, 2014)

+1 on upgrading pads if you are looking to get the most out of your current brakes. I just did this with my Tektro brakes that are still on my bike and the increase in stopping power & modulation has been significant, especially in wet conditions. It's a lot cheaper than buying new brake calipers too.


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## fixinta (Sep 24, 2014)

There are only a few times when I wished for better brakes than my old rim brakes. Those few times were when I'm hauling a 70# load on my BOB trailer and need to stop fast. Not very often. I hate fads and tend to lean on tried and true old school components. I commute and bike camp. I refuse to pay $8K for the latest tech that, like computers and phones, become outdated in 6 months.


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## Doug B (Sep 11, 2009)

How well do disc brakes work when wet? I know my caliper brakes aren't worth a carp in the rain.


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## SwimCycle09 (Apr 22, 2014)

OP if you haven't read through the other threads about disc brakes on here, don't bother. There is a lot of hate for them and in my opinion it's not needed. Most of the people who are really upset about it have a lot invested in rim brake wheelsets and bikes. Oddly, or maybe not really, if you look at the same discussions on road disc brakes over on the Mtbr forums the general consensus over there is they are fantastic. Bottom line no one is forcing anybody to ride disc brakes on the road. Do discs have advantages over rim brakes in certain situations? Absolutely. More consistent in poor weather conditions, I don't think anyone can deny that. As already mentioned, the lack of rim wear is very appealing to many people as well. 

Personally, I haven't tried any of the road hydraulic disc options (aside from TRP R-Hydro, which is a hybrid..) yet but of the mechanical systems I have tried briefly, some worked just as well or better than a good set of rim brakes and others were terrible. As with any brakes, I am sure setup had a lot to do with the lever feel, but that is what disappointed me the most. Pretty much all the mechanical road disc systems I tried felt mushier than my current road calipers (R-Hydros felt and worked awesome). It seems to me the cable pull ratio for most mechanical disc systems with STI or drop bar brake levers hasn't been perfected resulting in poor lever feel. I imagine this isn't an issue with the hydraulic systems. That, along with the price of current road hydraulic disc systems are my two complaints about disc coming to road. Overall, I still think discs have their place for certain applications on drop bar bikes and will continue to improve with time.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

The hate/bashing thing I don't get. I have both, cable and hdy disc and nearly every shimano level dual pivot claipers/rim brakes.

Tool for the job. I have not ridden a disc bike since I was not willing to trash rims on wheels I built up over winter for the DRY SEASON [see how I did that?]

Rim brakes with kool stop salmons stop fine wet IMO, they do for me. I for one AM NOT going to tear up my Pacenti SL23 and HED Belgium rims on my wheels 10x as fast doing it. If you want to, go ahead. Maybe you will only experience 4x trash.

I do 'HATE' cleaning the mess up after a wet ride I can tell you. You are cleaning your money away in the form of dark grey aluminum sludge that used to be on you rims. I won't even talk about off piste, other than to say I have ruined a rim in one ride wet woods rolling...

I could care less as far as trying to convince anyone which one they should use/buy/get.

Haters, hate, go ahead. Stop trying to convert everyone else to your gig...

As for the Sheep that follow that nonsense, get a life that is maybe actually your own ??


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

It's very easy to understand when you realize that road bikers have traditionally been against all innovation. If not for mountain biking, road bikers would still be on steel bikes with friction shifting on the down tube. Indexed shifting, tubeless tires, carbon frames and wheels and now disc brakes have all been on the hate list. Eventually, the market forces these Luddites to try these inventions of the devil and they reluctantly come around (usually about 10 years after the benefit has become obvious to the rational world). 

Do understand that their world has been invaded by us effing mountain bikers and their traditional image as arrogant RBP's is being watered down.

If you're waiting for road bikers to embrace any new innovation that comes along, don't hold your breath


JasonC71 said:


> Hi...disclosure time...I am a long time mountan biker that has recently been bitten by the road bug. I am curious as to why there is so much push back towards disc brakes on road bikes.
> 
> I know that there are threads about the topic, but I was interested in a discussion about CURRENT tech, as well as tech that is coming within say the next year.
> 
> ...


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

"There are only a few times when I wished for better brakes than my old rim brakes. Those few times were when I'm hauling a 70# load on my BOB trailer and need to stop fast."

Ummm... unless you put the brakes on the trailer itself you probably don't want to stop too quickly with that heavy of a trailer - unless you enjoy the sensation of jack knifing... 

For me, I don't like either the extra weight, extra complication or the metal-on-metal feel of disc brakes. Nor do I like the feeling that the bike companies are going to force them down our throats within a few years (I am worried that there will be no other option before too long).


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

a rim brake is a disc with a 700 cc rotor


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## SwimCycle09 (Apr 22, 2014)

Well said. And I agree, it's about the right tool for the job.


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## timeless (Jun 2, 2007)

Marc said:


> Any rim brake, properly setup, can exert enough stopping power to throw you over the handlebars.
> 
> The only real advantage is for high-mileage users who actually wear out their rims by wearing through the brake track.


same amount of stopping power yes.
But no where close to the same amount of control.

Give you a rough idea. At max pressure rim brake it at around 200 psi. Compared to a Disc brake at 1000 psi. This is for the same amount of stopping power. It boils down to there is just a lot more room to play on a disc brake.
It is about control. Disc brakes have a lot more control.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> It's very easy to understand when you realize that road bikers have traditionally been against all innovation. If not for mountain biking, road bikers would still be on steel bikes with friction shifting on the down tube. Indexed shifting, tubeless tires, carbon frames and wheels and now disc brakes have all been on the hate list. Eventually, the market forces these Luddites to try these inventions of the devil and they reluctantly come around (usually about 10 years after the benefit has become obvious to the rational world).
> 
> Do understand that their world has been invaded by us effing mountain bikers and their traditional image as arrogant RBP's is being watered down.
> 
> If you're waiting for road bikers to embrace any new innovation that comes along, don't hold your breath


you feel all superior now? at least I hope you got a good wank out of the rant.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> a rim brake is a disc with a 700 cc rotor


700 cc?

The diameter of a 700C rim is 622 mm at the bead seat. The "c" does not stand for "centimeter," and certainly not "cubic centimeter."


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

What you keep rid'in your brakes for? Quit slowing down at every little thing!
Stopping is not a big part of riding.

Well.... what does the 'c' stand for?


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## walrus (Jan 29, 2004)

My next road bike will have disk brakes. I ride a lot of long steep hills and my rim, side pull brakes with coolstop pads don't have the stopping power I want.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

timeless said:


> same amount of stopping power yes.
> But no where close to the same amount of control.
> 
> Give you a rough idea. At max pressure rim brake it at around 200 psi. Compared to a Disc brake at 1000 psi. This is for the same amount of stopping power. It boils down to there is just a lot more room to play on a disc brake.
> It is about control. Disc brakes have a lot more control.



:thumbsup: It's really amazing that no matter how many times this fact is pointed out, people still come back with the same tired argument about how they don't need more braking "power" :mad2:




duriel said:


> What you keep rid'in your brakes for? Quit slowing down at every little thing!
> Stopping is not a big part of riding.


It is if you do a lot of technical descending. As pointed out, right tool for the job. You don't need disc brakes until you do.

On the local Thursday night mountain ride, myself and another rider who works at a LBS are the fastest descenders of the group, we usually really go for it chasing our best times down a very technical descent. He gets to demo bikes from the shop and when he is on a rim brake bike I can keep up with him, but recently he has had a disc bike and I don't stand a chance. On the disc bike he can brake much later and every corner he just gets away from me a little more. In fact, one time I took off while he was still putting on his jacket and had a good lead on him, about halfway down he blows past me screaming "disc brakes are awesome!", he beat me to the bottom by over 30s

Between that and my own personal experience with disc on my mtb bike, I am sold, the feel alone is worth it. Just waiting for the tech to settle down and more options to become available.


People just whine because they hate the idea of stuff they spent a lot of money on becoming obsolete. Electronic shifting isn't necessary, but that sure sells well. 11-speed isn't necessary. Why do you need paddle shifters when down-tube worked great? Clipless pedals?.... 


( And BTW, you can still get down tube shifters, 7-speed cassettes, and toe clips if you want them )

.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Doug B said:


> How well do disc brakes work when wet? I know my caliper brakes aren't worth a carp in the rain.


Yeah, Carp don't work well for slowing a bike down, they do keep some mossy lakes clean though.  Disc brakes work great in the rain - that's the only reason I have 1 road bike with them - it's my rain / Winter full fender bike. The only time that bike get's used in inclimate weather really. 

As far as the more clamping pressure with a disc vs a rim brake - that logic is seriously flawed - Force time lever arm - there's a lot more leverage to stop at the rim than at the rotor so you don't need any where near as much force to stop at the same rate.


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## jeremy_s (May 6, 2015)

I just don't want the added weight. I have xt/ice tech centerlock on my fsb and they're great. Also completely unnecessary on a road bike. Traction limits remain the same no matter what is allying the braking force. I can lock up a rear tire with disc or rim and I can endo a bike with disc or rim. Why would I add weight to a bike I bought specifically the be light? On a mountain bike you need discs, it gets wet, filthy, etc. on a road bike, I don't see the point. I test rode one with disc before buying my Altamira and they were meh at best.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

I bought a synapse with shimano disc brakes as a rain/winter bike and wow - the brakes are incredible. I am pretty sure I am going to replace the maguras on my epic with xt or xtr brakes - the shimano are THAT good.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Who in their right mind thinks this is a good idea?

Dude goes riding on FLAT dirt roads for FOUR hours with almost no braking and looses all of his pad compound? Repeatedly even, no matter organic or metallic.

This tells me crystal clear the SRAM provides a dangerous, undeveloped, overly expensive to maintain and inferior product vs. standard rim brakes.


So if I want to ride on a dirt road I cannot use SRAM brakes, period. And the Shimano ones get torn up pretty bad too, with virtually no braking involved...

Yeah, really good idea for the gravel/adventure crowd... really well done.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

JasonC71 said:


> Why the hate for disc brakes?


I think the hate is more directed at the marketing B.S. than the brakes themselves. The marketing is convincing people that discs are the be all end all and will magically change bike riding.

I ride MTB. I have bikes with hydraulic disc and rim brakes. I do technical riding and in almost all circumstances the rim brakes work perfectly fine. Most people riding disc MTB on regular 'ole singletrack don't really get any benefit. 

The same goes for the road. Most people aren't going to benefit from them. People I ride with are jumping onto the disc bandwagon. I still beat them down hills with my rim brakes. 

I'm currently planning a new road bike build for the winter and bad weather. It's going to have hydraulic disc. So I'm surely not a hater.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

You can tell who has never ridden with disc brakes by the opinionated responses.

As a rider of MTB and road for 28 years, I've been waiting for disc brakes to come to the road for about 11 years. Having them on several XC bikes, I learned early how great they work in all conditions. I love the modulation you gain over rim brakes. 

Are they for everyone? Of course not. I wanted them because I have years of enjoying them. The anti-disc people have little or no time on them so their arguments are more theory based than reality based. That's fine. I don't care if discs are popular or not as long as I can continue using them.

BTW, mine are cable actuated hydraulics. This allows the use of standard shifters while retaining most of the power and modulation an all hydraulic system has.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

It's interesting that disc brakes receive hate, when they work well in the rain and reduce hand fatigue on long downhills where you have to be on the brakes, yet everyone seems to think that expensive carbon rims are so great.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Don't hate them. I just don't want to look silly with them on.
They might have a place on a commuter bike, if you lived where it rains all the time, and they might have a place on a mountain bike, but on a road bike? Give me a break.

"Dick" brakes and Gravel bikes, along with Fat bikes, are the way to get people to throw more money into the bike companies coffers.

(Yes. Carbon wheels, for the masses, are the same thing)


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Not intended to imply that there is anything wrong with the traditional Luddite tendencies of road bikers. Their desire to keep things the way they were in the past deserves serious consideration. I am among those who would like to own a 1932 Ford coupe or an pre-WWII road bike--just not as my primary mode of transportation. 

I am also not suggesting that the desire for constant and never ending improvement typical of mountain bikers is anything but different.

No offense was intended and I understand the desire to maintain the pre-MTB image that road bikers enjoyed perpetuating.

Incidentally, I trained for another sport on road bikes long before the MTB movement was born so I only see myself as a mountain biker in my bias toward innovation.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

You forget that mountain biking was in it's infancy, with single speed and coaster brakes, when indexed shifting, aluminum frames, and lighter steel frames moved into production for road bikes. There were even titanium frames available, at that time.
Disc brakes are still a solution to a problem that does not exist for any racing bike.
I might be able to see the use on a commuter bike, but only if you live in an area where it rains 300 days a year.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I guess we'll see how rim brakes compare in mountain stages of both pro and amateur road races once discs are approved for use. Until then! 


MR_GRUMPY said:


> You forget that mountain biking was in it's infancy, with single speed and coaster brakes, when indexed shifting, aluminum frames, and lighter steel frames moved into production for road bikes. There were even titanium frames available, at that time.
> Disc brakes are still a solution to a problem that does not exist for any racing bike.
> I might be able to see the use on a commuter bike, but only if you live in an area where it rains 300 days a year.


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## HyperCycle (Sep 5, 2012)

I've been looking into the Trek Domane 4.5 and 4.5 Disc.

The 4.5's MSRP is $2,629.99
The 4.5 Disc's MSRP is $3,259.99

A difference of $630. That's a lot of extra money for disc brakes. My latest mountain bike has disc brakes and I like them... but I'll probably stick with rim brakes on my future road bikes.


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## SNS1938 (Aug 9, 2013)

My next road bike will have them (my next road bike might be a cx/gravel bike too though). I want them for two reasons:

1) I have some decent (up to 1100m) descents near me, that I have to sit on the brakes basically the whole way down. I don't like this with rim brakes, as it heats the tire and also wears the rims.
2) I want some shallow/mid section carbon rims, but don't want to have carbon braking surfaces. So, sure, I could get the Shimano carbon/alloy rims, but I'd rather go disc brake.
3) Disc's will give me more tire clearance, so I can stretch the bike from road rides to gravel rides and maybe even light cx use.
4) Braking in the wet will be far far better. I don't do the big climbs in the wet, just because I don't like the down.

I think that 1/2 the people who rag about disc's being unneeded now, will change their minds once they try them. People (me included) said so many of the changes in bike design were not needed, but now we love them. Carbon frames, 9 speed ... 11 speed, compact cranks, power meters etc.

I am in no hurry to change though, as the technology (with shifter/brake levers) is still developing, and FSA entering the market could mix things up, and my new 6800 brakes are amazing ( replaced 7800 brakes ).


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

I don't have a specific opinion about disc brakes, but I do dislike the general trend that I see of bikes becoming more and more unserviceable by the owner unless one is willing to acquire fairly specialized knowledge and an expensive set of tools.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Don't hate them. I just don't want to look silly with them on.
> They might have a place on a commuter bike, if you lived where it rains all the time, and they might have a place on a mountain bike, but on a road bike? Give me a break.
> 
> "Dick" brakes and Gravel bikes, along with Fat bikes, are the way to get people to throw more money into the bike companies coffers.
> ...



Well then it's a good thing you don't look silly on your vintage toe-clipped 3-speed steel bike in all your wool clothing glory, you know because all those extra gears, clipless pedals, paddle shifters, exotic material, aero, spandex clothing, etc., are all just solutions to problems that didn't exist, merely concocted by bike companies to part you from your money. :thumbsup:


.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

I've maintained all along that it's going to be a major PITA to adopt on race bikes. Tolerances aren't close enough, not enough standardization. We'll see what happens in August at the ProTour level, hopefully it goes smoothly. 

But...

I can't wait to have a road bike w/ thru-axles and hydro disc brakes. Probably electronic shifting as well. One thing I've never said is that they 'don't work' or 'aren't needed'. I've always been a fan of more powerful and easily modulated brakes. Why use CC BRS200's when I can have a dual-pivot caliper? Not the equivalent is why use dual-pivots when you can have discs? They definitely work, and are very controllable. I have no worries about needing to do quick wheel changes any more, so I don't care about that. They just flat out work and make my life easier and more fun on longer descents. Who gives a rats ass what anyone else thinks? And the only people that think they 'look silly' are so out of touch their opinions are meaningless anyway.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

Here's the deal: I don't hate disc brakes. I am very open minded. 

BUT:
It is true that rim caliper brakes seem to work almost perfectly adequately, an I do a lot of long, steep, mountain descents. My brakes don't fade and my hands don't get tired. 

So we are all waiting for a tangible benefit, other than that they "work better" or have "better control". I just don't really feel like I need better control. 

Are they lighter ? 
That would help on the uphill portions.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

It's amazing that 'hate' could even be a part of what choices a person may make regarding their bicycles. The resemblance to religion here is more than noticeable. So many people are just predisposed to oppose anyone that does not think like themselves, which of course is what religion is all about. And then there are the 'marketing/manufacturer/corporation haters that think the component makers are out to 'get' us by shoving unnecessary technology down our throats. Really? Is that how you view things? Get real, people, do whatever you want and keep it to yourself. I'll do the same.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I am going to add: a 700C rotor is a nice disc. 

Also add this, I have some newer cable pull ratio rim Ultegra calipers with older STIs. And with the new SL23 Pacenti rims and the original newer Shimano brake pads and calipers. The performance is outstanding!! My fav out of all my bikes/brakes. My 29er Juicys a close second. 

After riding a Buell front disc for years I have no problem modulating around the ratio, but admit I do get a faster rear wheel lockup a bit. As i did on the Buell from a constant light rear wheel from a lot of unintentional nose brake wheelies. 

I also have single pivot on my Paramount. I can tell you I feel like I did a hand exorcize session after a ride. My little finger bi-ceps  are pumped literately.

On yet another note: carbon rims and disc brake was my plan for the disc Roubaix I bought 8/2014. Until I felt how stiff that thing was. I went with lower profile Pacenti rims instead. Rained on my plan for the carbon wheel build. Because no carbon wheel brake performance I have experienced personally has made me feel to confident with the system frankly. Although the early Zipp 404s I had with the AL brake surface were fine, until I had to get the rims warranteed that is. But that was a million tech years ago.

I will close with suggesting taking data on the subject in forums with your analytical caps on as to potential lack of veracity/reality.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

The same thing happened in the MTB world. People complained about the half pound weight gain. That they weren't necessary, they stopped fine on rim brakes, they didn't want to have to bleed brakes, that they didn't understand what "modulation" means, or that they thought they'd flip over the bars all the time. 

Now disc is all you see on MTB, because they do a better job of stopping/slowing down, which is a pretty major part of what most people want a brake to do. They have the same benefit on road bikes, which is why within a few years disc brakes will be a vast majority of what you see in shops for sale. 

Eventually most of the grumpy luddites will be on disc brakes, just like they're on STI shifters, freehubs, derailleurs, compact doubles (most of them anyway, I'm sure some triple only guy will reply to this), 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 speed, and every other technical advancement that has been resisted by people who for whatever reason don't like to see positive change in the industry. Though I've got to admit, they were right on bb30. 

Until then, we'll just listen to the luddites whine for a few years.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

masont said:


> The same thing happened in the MTB world. People complained about the half pound weight gain. That they weren't necessary, they stopped fine on rim brakes, they didn't want to have to bleed brakes, that they didn't understand what "modulation" means, or that they thought they'd flip over the bars all the time.


...You're forgetting the part where the first few generations of disc-rotor brakes had teething issues...like cooking hub bearings....and like hydraulic brakes having fluid boil due to inadequate cooling...Also brake power loss due to pads melting...


But please, do continue on as though everything about disc brakes was all on "luddites" and everything hardware wise has always been puppies, rainbows, and unicorns.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

I got road hydraulic disc brakes (and Di2) a year ago on a new custom bike. I live in the Santa Cruz mtns and do 90% of my riding on roads with the suffix "grade" on their name (>10% grades are not uncommon), and I do a lot of off-road stuff on mtn bike trails, and also wanted the extra confidence inspiration after breaking my ankle, so I went for the Shimano hydraulic disc Ultegra brakes (essentially the same at XT, btw). I'm not a bit sorry. If you want them, don't be talked out of them. They are the easiest brakes to bleed I have ever worked with, by the way, and I am a not a highly competent bike mechanic.

Having said that, I do find I went through pads and rotors quickly, especially at the beginning, when I was recovering from the psychological effects of the injury, and tended to drag the brakes too much. If you use them heavily, they are more of a PITA to maintain than are (good) rim brakes.

So like anything else, there are pros and cons (in addition to the expense -- which can be reduced by proper braking technique and DIY routine maintenance). They are definitely not for everyone.


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

I've been riding discs on my commuter and road bike for over a decade, I'm more than happy to never have to deal with rim brakes again. There's advantages and disadvantages to each component on all bikes, I'm not going to suggest to anyone how they should set up theirs, whatever you choose is fine by me. I could care less what people think of my rides.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Completely unnecessary in my area. I would fear that some sort of n00b racer would grab a disc brake during a race. 

There is a racer in this forum in the PacNW and thinks they'd be useful for descending mountains and it rains a lot up there. This kind of use makes more sense.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

disc brakes on a road bike not a bad idea at all. But I live in hilly and mountainous terrain, and it rains for 4 months straight here too.

I once descended Alpe DHuez in a donwpour with 100,000 other cyclists one late afternoon after watching a stage. I had my stock Shimano brakes. Man that was scary as heck. levers bottomed to the bars and bike still accelerating in some of the switchbacks. People who say you don't need to slow down on a road bike must live in the Midwest, LOL. The discs would have been a godsend for that, though I did not spill using the cable rim braks

But I am in no hurry to move to disc brakes, as it requires a whole new bike and the brakes weigh more. I use the Koolstops and they are great. In dry conditions, I see no advantage of discs-over-koolstops whatsoever. So I ride a cross bike with disc brakes only in rainy winter.

I did have a rim sidewall blow completely off on me once, with a huge bang. But that was a mountain bike w rim brakes. Obviously disc brakes revolutionized braking for mtn bikes.

USed to be the pros would risk rolling a tubular off the rim in descents with rim brakes. Because the heat would soften the glue. I presume they have solved that problem with better adhesives?


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## timeless (Jun 2, 2007)

MoPho said:


> :thumbsup: It's really amazing that no matter how many times this fact is pointed out, people still come back with the same tired argument about how they don't need more braking "power" :mad2:
> 
> .


Yeah I used to be among that group. It was not until I learned it was about control that was key.
Having 5 times more control would be great. One thing I miss about my cheap alloy rims compared to my carbon is they have so much more control on braking. Carbons feel like they are either on for they are off. The control is not there. The Alloys rims I had a lot more control over the braking power. 
Yeah I can still scrub some speed if need be on the carbons but no where close to the control I had on my alloys which frankly sucked compared to the control I have on disc brakes on a mountain.

Disc are coming and it will be over control and constant braking power no matter the condition.

The hold outs will figure that out at some point.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Marc said:


> ...You're forgetting the part where the first few generations of disc-rotor brakes had teething issues...like cooking hub bearings....and like hydraulic brakes having fluid boil due to inadequate cooling...Also brake power loss due to pads melting...
> 
> 
> But please, do continue on as though everything about disc brakes was all on "luddites" and everything hardware wise has always been puppies, rainbows, and unicorns.



So what you are saying is that the "luddites" didn't learn from history and continue to jump to conclusions about new tech without first giving it a chance?











Teething problems are to be expected with new technology, fortunately there are people out there who are willing to be early adapters or we would probably still have $20k flat screen Tv's that burn the image into the screen when you paused it. 


.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Oh one more reason for the disc brakes. My wife has carbon rims. I put on the Koostop carbon-specific pads for her. She wore them to the nubs in less than two months! Either they are poorly engineered pads, or this could be a good case for disc brakes.

I am going to try the top end Swiss stops on her brakes now.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

JasonC71,
I bet you weren't expecting this many posts of nitpicking opinions and bickering, eh? Roadies can over-*anal*yze anything, redefining "minutiae" in the process. 
Sit back and enjoy the show!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

MoPho said:


> So what you are saying is that the "luddites" didn't learn from history and continue to jump to conclusions about new tech without first giving it a chance?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ironically "burn in" is still very much a problem with displays. Technically it isn't "burn in" most of the time, on LCDs it is image permanence. Go to any airport with LCD monitors, and you can see image permanence. Go to a cellphone store, see ghost images from burn in. The problem hasn't yet gone away.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

motoricker said:


> Here's the deal: I don't hate disc brakes. I am very open minded.
> 
> BUT:
> It is true that rim caliper brakes seem to work almost perfectly adequately, an I do a lot of long, steep, mountain descents. My brakes don't fade and my hands don't get tired.
> ...


Have you tried them? I thought the same thing you do...right up until the first time I rode them down a hill. A small one, only 1 mile. Only about 30mph. Didn't matter. So much nicer than rim brakes. I've historically been a skeptic of many 'new & better' things, but holy sh*t...the Shimano road discs are very nice. The fact that they remove the rim from the brake system is a plus as well, now all they have to do is hold a tire and look good.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Marc said:


> Ironically "burn in" is still very much a problem with displays. Technically it isn't "burn in" most of the time, on LCDs it is image permanence. Go to any airport with LCD monitors, and you can see image permanence. Go to a cellphone store, see ghost images from burn in. The problem hasn't yet gone away.



It is tremendously better than it was in those days and these TV's now cost $400 and practically everyone has one…. But way to avoid the real point :thumbsup:




.


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## JasonC71 (May 3, 2015)

Tig said:


> JasonC71,
> I bet you weren't expecting this many posts of nitpicking opinions and bickering, eh? Roadies can over-*anal*yze anything, redefining "minutiae" in the process.
> Sit back and enjoy the show!


I was not. Sorta afraid to say anything else lol.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

duriel said:


> What you keep rid'in your brakes for? Quit slowing down at every little thing!
> Stopping is not a big part of riding.
> 
> Well.... what does the 'c' stand for?


The 700 is a nominal outside diameter of the tire. There have been various iterations of that size, with the 700C version being the one that caught on with the vast majority of bicycle makers. 700D was a version used by GT in the 80s - good luck finding replacement rims or tires for that one.

700A = 642mm bead diameter
700B = 635mm bead diameter
700C = 622mm bead diameter
700D = 587mm bead diameter


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Oxtox said:


> simple, they're completely unnecessary.
> 
> it's just a marketing ploy to provide something that's 'new and improved'...





Marc said:


> Any rim brake, properly setup, can exert enough stopping power to throw you over the handlebars.
> 
> The only real advantage is for high-mileage users who actually wear out their rims by wearing through the brake track.


But the marketing people said the disk brakes are a total evolution of road bike riding.................


On the serious side, I will go over this again since it does not seem to sink in

Modulation/ease of use.


Rim brakes stop fine. I too can go over the bars with _x_ force applied to the brake levers. With disks, I get to go over the bars with _x-50%. _Now, put that on a 3200 ft descent with lots of turns. 

Disks have a good feel or modulation compared to rim brakes. While not linear, the increased control is very noticeable.

If you live in Florida or Kansas, I can see the "completely unnecessary" statement.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

robt57 said:


> The hate/bashing thing I don't get. I have both, cable and hdy disc and nearly every shimano level dual pivot claipers/rim brakes.
> 
> Tool for the job. I have not ridden a disc bike since I was not willing to trash rims on wheels I built up over winter for the DRY SEASON [see how I did that?]
> 
> ...


We are the Borg
Resistance is futile


I too hate riding in the rain. I'd rather ride indoors on rollers.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

spdntrxi said:


> dont hate... just get tired of people saying they are flat out better in all situations.. tuned out of thread now, before they come.


Not in all situations, but many.

I can think of one where they suck.......in a crash. Although, for as many times as I crashed on my mtb, I have never been cut or burned by a rotor.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Oxtox said:


> simple, they're completely unnecessary.
> 
> it's just a marketing ploy to provide something that's 'new and improved'...





Tig said:


> JasonC71,
> I bet you weren't expecting this many posts of nitpicking opinions and bickering, eh? Roadies can over-*anal*yze anything, redefining "minutiae" in the process.
> Sit back and enjoy the show!


Wait, we have never discussed this topic before.........................


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Oxtox said:


> simple, they're completely unnecessary.
> 
> it's just a marketing ploy to provide something that's 'new and improved'...





robdamanii said:


> Because when I'm racing my bike, I want to use my brakes to modulate my speed *just a little*. Conserving is the name of the game. I don't need to drag brakes all over the place, nor do I need to drag brakes down descents.
> 
> I've never had a situation where I've wished for stronger brakes than the curren calipers, even on carbon rims.


Disks are not about the power of the brakes.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> Rim brakes stop fine. I too can go over the bars with _x_ force applied to the brake levers. With disks, I get to go over the bars with _x-50%. _Now, put that on a 3200 ft descent with lots of turns.


what's the issue with a km drop and lots of turns with rim brakes? if you fatigue you probably want to look at other causes.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> *Do understand that their world has been invaded by us effing mountain bikers* and their traditional image as arrogant RBP's is being watered down.
> 
> If you're waiting for road bikers to embrace any new innovation that comes along, don't hold your breath


LOL, I resemble that remark...................... with my mtb shoes, pedals, cassette and RD all from the mtb world.....


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Oxtox said:


> simple, they're completely unnecessary.


Unless you live someplace like the Pacific Northwest, ride in the rain, and wear through rims every year or two.

I moved instead of dealing with that problem.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

den bakker said:


> what's the issue with a km drop and lots of turns with rim brakes? if you fatigue you probably want to look at other causes.


^Never ridden disc brakes I'm assuming.^ You don't _*need*_ indexed shifting or brake lever shifters or more than 5 cogs but I'll bet you have them, and probably adapted kicking and screaming the whole way.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ziscwg said:


> But the marketing people said the disk brakes are a total evolution of road bike riding.................
> 
> 
> On the serious side, I will go over this again since it does not seem to sink in
> ...


So do you think companies should stop building frames that accomodate these "inferior" caliper brakes?

Because my guess is that's where the market is headed...it sure seems that way with cyclocross bikes.


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## proclaimer888 (Jul 24, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> Wait, we have never discussed this topic before.........................


I don't hate disk brakes...I hate yellow jackets.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Question for the disc fans.
Are Disc brakes always superior to caliper and cantilever brakes or do the worst disc examples perform worse than the best of the caliper or cantilever(i threw in cantiliver because i know someone building a bike that is going in this direction). Seems I hear the term disc thrown without talking spec or producer, not always, but lots of times.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Unless you live someplace like the Pacific Northwest, ride in the rain, and wear through rims every year or two.
> 
> I moved instead of dealing with that problem.


Riding in the rain is not fun. If it looks like rain I stay home, If it's only a drizzle or a light shower for a short while, caliper brakes can handle that. And if it does rain, I won't push boundries in any event.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

I live and race in the PNW. 10-15% downhills are nothing out of the ordinary. I also ride those with my kid who weighs next to nothing so I have to squeeze my brakes the whole way down those hills to stay back with him. Oh, and I ride carbon rims (in all fairness, they're Zipps and they probably are a little more sturdy than the average carbon rim). I also have aluminum clinchers and pads that I'll throw on for descents where I know I'll be cooking the rims for more than a mile or so. 

That being said, my CX bike has discs. 

Between my two bikes, I still prefer my road bike going down hills. Yeah, the discs are fine, but maybe I'm just used to the modulation on the rim brakes. I've never been into a braking situation with my rim brakes (even on carbon in the rain) where I was concerned for my safety. 

Why do I not like discs? Partially because I'm not that familiar with them. I don't know what standards there are. I don't know how easy it is to swap parts across platforms. I don't know how easy or hard it will be to get a wheel from neutral support should I need one. They're heavier and they make terrible noises that make me feel like my bike is falling apart. They grab way to hard and quickly for me and I like being able to grab a little rear brake while still pedaling into a corner to just scrub off 1 to 2 MPH and not cause the train behind me to go down like a Thai hooker. I can't see my pads when I glance down so I don't have that confidence in knowing that I have 1/2" left of material and I don't always inspect before I go out and ride. 

Maybe it's also b/c I have expensive wheels and don't really want to replace them. Heck, I've put 3,000 miles on those things and they still look brand new with no signs of wear. I should get another 20K easily out of them. Sure, I could probably just pay to have the hubs replaced and when I get a new frame, get one with disc mounts, but I don't want to. 

I don't have any hate for discs, I just don't see any need for them in my particular situation.


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

> LOL, I resemble that remark...................... with my mtb shoes, pedals, cassette and RD all from the mtb world.....


Ditto 

There's little to no reason to go out and replace perfectly fine spendy wheels and frames to switch to discs, just like there wasn't any great reason to switch from downtube shifters. They still shifted just fine right? Lighter, all the same arguments when new tech comes on the scene with the clunky V1 stuff up against the highly refined old stuff.

That being said, for the non competitive weekend warrior or group rider the bikes aimed for you will likely have discs in the future. And through axles which are great IMO.

I can see the potential danger of crashing in the peloton with discs, but I've crashed on my mtb plenty and have never had an issue. I've seen people sliced up from chainrings and seatpost binder bolts, but never a disc. I'm sure it happens, just not very often.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

harryman said:


> I can see the potential danger of crashing in the peloton with discs, but I've crashed on my mtb plenty and have never had an issue. I've seen people sliced up from chainrings and seatpost binder bolts, but never a disc. I'm sure it happens, just not very often.


Crashing on an MTB and on a road bike are dramatically different though. On an MTB, it's 1, maybe 2 guys, a tree, a rock, and a suicidal squirrel at most. In a peloton, it could be 20-30 guys. That guy who's laying on your bike could have his face on your disc rotor getting a new tattoo on his face. Or that guy who puts his arms out to keep him from certain doom (but ensuring a broken collar bone) might just put his fingers into that rotating rotor and shave off a few grams.


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

Well, yeah, that's why I said "I can see the danger of crashing in the peloton". Crashing solo on the road or mtn, i think the danger is minimal. I don't race, i think a fair assumption is that most roadies don't and if someone goes down on a group ride, it's not going to be a big pile up. It's a consideration to be sure, but not a worry for me.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

proclaimer888 said:


> I don't hate disk brakes...I hate yellow jackets.



Holy crappola
I have disk brakes and a yellow wind/commute jacket. If you say you hate the RedHots candy, we gotta problem


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> Question for the disc fans.
> Are Disc brakes always superior to caliper and cantilever brakes or do the worst disc examples perform worse than the best of the caliper or cantilever(i threw in cantiliver because i know someone building a bike that is going in this direction). Seems I hear the term disc thrown without talking spec or producer, not always, but lots of times.


crappy disk brakes are crappy. They don't rival rim brakes.

Good rim brakes are good, but good disks have some advantages over the good rim brakes.

Now, you get new problems too with disk brakes. The first will probably be set up. Disk brake setup is crucial, but not too hard once you have done it. Rim brakes are a lot more tolerant as long as you get the pads close.

You also get some of the old problems in a different wrapper (metaphor). For example, pad choice. You have to have the right pads/rotor for the job. The same for rim brakes, but you are matching the rim to the pad.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

cxwrench said:


> ^Never ridden disc brakes I'm assuming.^ You don't _*need*_ indexed shifting or brake lever shifters or more than 5 cogs but I'll bet you have them, and probably adapted kicking and screaming the whole way.


thanks for the non answer. keep on betting instead. should make someone happy.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Special Eyes said:


> It's amazing that 'hate' could even be a part of what choices a person may make regarding their bicycles. The resemblance to religion here is more than noticeable. So many people are just predisposed to oppose anyone that does not think like themselves, which of course is what religion is all about. And then there are the 'marketing/manufacturer/corporation haters that think the component makers are out to 'get' us by shoving unnecessary technology down our throats. Really? Is that how you view things? Get real, people, do whatever you want and keep it to yourself. I'll do the same.


I oppose this entirely.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

den bakker said:


> thanks for the non answer. keep on betting instead. should make someone happy.


I though the analogous cited conundrum was on point personally. Or at least made the point that we surely have a perpensity to make luxuries into necessities.


Do you need a translation? Or did I imagine the point which seemed to be made??


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

den bakker said:


> what's the issue with a km drop and lots of turns with rim brakes? if you fatigue you probably want to look at other causes.



It's an ease of use and fatigue. Every pull for the brakes requires energy. Now, it's not too big a deal on shorter descents or shorter rides. However, you put big descents on long rides, they hands don't feel as "fresh" as you might want. 

I like to rip the DH sections, not conserve energy. If I'm not pedaling out of a corner, it's because I'm setting up for the next turn, or I'm above 35 mph or so and spun out. So, I gain and scrub speed a lot. I descent in the drops, so I have the leverage on the brakes.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Tschai said:


> I oppose this entirely.


Yeah, me too. Or maybe I oppose the opposite. 
Or something. But not entirely. More like mostly.
More or less.



robt57 said:


> I though the analogous cited conundrum was on point personally. Or at least made the point that we surely have a perpensity to make luxuries into necessities.
> 
> 
> Do you need a translation? Or did I imagine the point which seemed to be made??


Yes.


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

I can tell you one application I'm thinking of, my girlfriend who struggles with decents among other things. (It took her a full season to master clip-less pedals. She fell so routinely, I actually cut an old pair of tube socks to make knee pads to reduce the scuff.)

Never really thought about it, but riding my Felt Virtue 3 with hydraulic disk yesterday, I really appreciated how little "squeeze" was needed to get a lot of stopping power. 

Yes I know the real answer is for her to learn to ride better, but that has been seriously slow in coming. In the meantime, I'm thinking about disc road for her to build a little confidence. She often gets tired holding the brakes for extended periods going down hill, or stops way in advance of when she needs to…all because she's afraid she can't stop on command.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

When are we going to find out that we need to get dual front disk brakes to eliminate front dish and get the more better modulation that we need with our 25mm tires.

I can't wait, the wheel will be stronger than these single disk dished wheels, the brakes will have more stopping power, will fade less and be easier to modulate.
Of course they probably won't be marketed until the single front disk brake market has been saturated.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

den bakker said:


> thanks for the non answer. keep on betting instead. should make someone happy.


All righty then. Guess I won't be selling you a disc brake bike anytime soon.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Pirx said:


> Yes.


yes, translation or imagine? Being the making necessities out of luxuries covers the translation [I think], I will take the reply as facetious, or feces-i-ous...


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## Rogus (Nov 10, 2010)

It's not anything scientific, but more and more in our club are on road bikes with disc brakes. When all have been asked how they like them, they all have said they like them better than rim brakes especially those with the Shimano hydraulic brakes. I'm sure there are some who have actually spent time riding with disc brakes who have felt differently, but I haven't come across them. I think most of the people saying no way likely haven't ridden with them. I'm right at 3 months with them, 2,370 miles with 194,990' of climbing.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

velodog said:


> When are we going to find out that we need to get dual front disk brakes to eliminate front dish and get the more better modulation that we need with our 25mm tires.


Absolutely, that's the logical next step. Ventilated disks, too. With lots of holes and slots. Coz' holes and slots are seriously cool. Red calipers, too, that say something like "Brembo" in big, bold letters. Or "Porsche".



robt57 said:


> yes, translation or imagine? Being the making necessities out of luxuries covers the translation [I think], I will take the reply as facetious, or feces-i-ous...


You got it.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

6 pot big reds... bring them on.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

I personally prefer disc brakes... but only for the sake of compatibility. I'd rather own a road bike, a cross bike, a gravel bike, and a touring bike (not necessarily four different bikes) and I like the ability to run wider tires and swap parts around. Beyond that, I don't see much of a point. My mini-v's on the touring/gravel bike and the road calipers on my road bike are more than sufficient for stopping power and it takes forever to wear a rim down from braking.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

MaxKatt said:


> In the meantime, I'm thinking about disc road for her to build a little confidence. She often gets tired holding the brakes for extended periods going down hill, or stops way in advance of when she needs to…all because she's afraid she can't stop on command.


OK, you know what happened when she was learning to unclip? Now imagine what is going to happen when she has a panic stop with dual disk 6 piston bremo's!


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Marc said:


> ...You're forgetting the part where the first few generations of disc-rotor brakes had teething issues...like cooking hub bearings....and like hydraulic brakes having fluid boil due to inadequate cooling...Also brake power loss due to pads melting...
> 
> 
> But please, do continue on as though everything about disc brakes was all on "luddites" and everything hardware wise has always been puppies, rainbows, and unicorns.


So what you're saying is that MTB guys had some good points against disc brakes, but now that we've figured all of those issues out, there aren't any good arguments against road disc?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> It's an ease of use and fatigue. Every pull for the brakes requires energy. Now, it's not too big a deal on shorter descents or shorter rides. However, you put big descents on long rides, they hands don't feel as "fresh" as you might want.


thanks. 
has not been a problem for me but varying mileage


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Discs have completely taken over mtn. It taking over cross. Its taking over gravel bikes. And now has started on pure road bikes. Why? They work better. And for carbon wheels, they make more sense. But if you don't like them, then don't use them- nobody is forcing you.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Oh one more reason for the disc brakes. My wife has carbon rims. I put on the Koostop carbon-specific pads for her. She wore them to the nubs in less than two months! Either they are poorly engineered pads, or this could be a good case for disc brakes.


Wow. Something is wrong. Do you ride in mountainous areas? Does she ride the brakes constantly?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

bradkay said:


> The 700 is a nominal outside diameter of the tire. There have been various iterations of that size, with the 700C version being the one that caught on with the vast majority of bicycle makers. 700D was a version used by GT in the 80s - good luck finding replacement rims or tires for that one.
> 
> 700A = 642mm bead diameter
> 700B = 635mm bead diameter
> ...


To amplify and clarify, and answer the direct question: the "c" is an obsolete designation for tire size. There were a, b, c and d (each larger than the last). A 700C rim is a size that gives an outside wheel diameter of about 700 mm with a C tire. 700D would be smaller rim, because it gets the 700 mm diameter with a fatter tire.

It's a confusing system, which is why a more straightforward system was introduced decades ago. Trouble is, manufacturers continue to use the old one alongside it. Your tires likely say "622-25" as well as "700-25C."

It does confuse people, but with any understanding of the metric system it would be obvious that the "c" has nothing to do with centimeters. I once heard a bike shop employee tell a customer, "this one has 700 centimeter wheels." That would be a really big wheel -- about 22 feet. I resisted the temptation to correct the guy. The customer was equally clueless.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> But if you don't like them, then don't use them- nobody is forcing you.


actually I think in 5 years or so the OEMs WILL be forcing us. I am not sure we get a vote just like on the myriad of bottom brackets standards they've foisted on us. I probably would not buy disc brakes if given the choice just because I don't live in a mountainous area and ride when its dry. Eventually, if that is what comes standard, I'll accept it


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Good point. Riders might be forced to go custom builder to get caliper brakes. It is already that way with threaded bottom brackets.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Rogus said:


> It's not anything scientific, but more and more in our club are on road bikes with disc brakes. When all have been asked how they like them, they all have said they like them better than rim brakes especially those with the Shimano hydraulic brakes. *I'm sure there are some who have actually spent time riding with disc brakes who have felt differently, but I haven't come across them.* I think most of the people saying no way likely haven't ridden with them. I'm right at 3 months with them, 2,370 miles with 194,990' of climbing.


Neither have I. Haven't seen any in this thread either. I'm sure they're around, but you'd think there'd at least be one person who had ridden them that wasn't a fan. 

Pretty universally, if you ride them, you like them. If you don't ride them, though, it makes it easier to complain about them on the internet.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

So if the biggest appeal of disc brakes is the more precise modulation, why aren't hydro rim brakes all the rage? The downside is that the wet stopping power probably isn't as good as disc, but on the plus side you get the finer modulation and avoid most of the weight, aero and safety issues. I suppose rim life is still a con too, but realistically how many of us have had to retire a rim due to brake wear- I'm guessing a very small percentage of the general riding population. And yes I know SRAM had a big recall issue with the hydro brakes awhile back, but this was undoubtedly a design flaw rather than an inherent flaw in operational principle.


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## BigTex91 (Nov 5, 2013)

I get that people who have a lot of money invested in wheels and bikes that are nicely cross-compatible would not embrace disks. Makes perfect sense. 

But ponder this. Pretend you don't. Maybe you don't have a bike at all, or your current bike has nothing you would want to carry over, and you're in the market for a bike. Do you go disk then? Does that change your attitude? 

Yes, that's my situation... My current and only road bike has crappy rims that I have no interest in putting on a new bike. I will be buying a new bike soon, have nothing invested in road wheels and nothing against disk brakes (most of my riding is MTB). Not worried about being a Fred - my current bike still has a triple, and if I'm ever NOT considered a Fred by road bikers, I'll go back to MTB exclusively because I'm obviously taking it too seriously.

So, new bike, no current investment in rim brake technology... do those of you who are anti-disk still go with rim brakes?


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Rogus said:


> It's not anything scientific, but more and more in our club are on road bikes with disc brakes. When all have been asked how they like them, they all have said they like them better than rim brakes especially those with the Shimano hydraulic brakes. I'm sure there are some who have actually spent time riding with disc brakes who have felt differently, but I haven't come across them. I think most of the people saying no way likely haven't ridden with them. I'm right at 3 months with them, 2,370 miles with 194,990' of climbing.


sounds like the Di2 conversation. Once you use disc's, it's not imposssible to go back to rim, but you get the overall feeling it's just better. Marginally yes, but still better.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Rogus said:


> It's not anything scientific, but more and more in our club are on road bikes with disc brakes. *When all have been asked how they like them, they all have said they like them better than rim brakes especially those with the Shimano hydraulic brakes.* I'm sure there are some who have actually spent time riding with disc brakes who have felt differently, but I haven't come across them. I think most of the people saying no way likely haven't ridden with them. I'm right at 3 months with them, 2,370 miles with 194,990' of climbing.


Shimano seems to have the disk hydraulic dialed really well. One of the "go to" brakes on the mtb side is the Shimano XT. They are not to expensive and work stupidly well. I heard that the Shimano road disk brakes are very similar to the XT mtb brakes. If that is the case, then I might have to dump my double taps when I finally have all in my fleet running disk


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

BigTex91 said:


> I get that people who have a lot of money invested in wheels and bikes that are nicely cross-compatible would not embrace disks. Makes perfect sense.
> 
> But ponder this. Pretend you don't. Maybe you don't have a bike at all, or your current bike has nothing you would want to carry over, and you're in the market for a bike. Do you go disk then? Does that change your attitude?
> 
> ...


My thought is that in going for disc you are either increasing your bike budget, or short-changing yourself somewhere else on the bike in order to afford the disc option.

Maintenance, on caliper brakes is also cheaper, and it's easy to monitor when its time to change pads. I'm not anti disc so much as not buying into the need for most riders including myself. Like I said earlier, there are situations where it makes sense.

Part of me likes what I see happening though, I see companies like Shimano increasing their wallet share out of each bike purchase with more buyers embracing electronic shifting, hydro-disc brakes , power meters and other goodies. And I own a few Shimano shares which have nicely gone up.


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

> Shimano road disk brakes are very similar to the XT mtb brakes.


I can't speak for Shimano, but with SRAM, you can use any caliper you'd like, road or mtb. I'd assume it's the same. 

IME, older versions of mtb rotors couldn't handle the heat of extended road descents very well without warping, the difference being that mtb is high frequency off/on/off, while on the road, you can have longer intense braking sessions. Visualize ripping into a switchback and braking heavy in the approach. Newer rotors from the past couple of years work well on the road now.

As for maintenance, yup, it's a pain to cut hydraulic hoses and bleed a system, messier and slighty harder than dealing with cables and wire. On the plus side, unless something fails, which happens less and less as systems evolve, it's pretty much set it and forget it. You are supposed to flush them as part of maintenance, @ yearly, but in the real world, you can leave them until you notice an issue. How often you flush your car's brakes? Yup, same deal. Changing the pads takes seconds.

I find them lower maintenance than calipers in the end. I don't miss picking aluminum slivers out of my rubber pads at all.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> Who in their right mind thinks this is a good idea?
> 
> Dude goes riding on FLAT dirt roads for FOUR hours with almost no braking and looses all of his pad compound? Repeatedly even, no matter organic or metallic.
> 
> ...


So not a single comment or replay to this?

I take it nobody plans on riding in the rain where there's any dirt involved then.


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## eriku16 (Jul 27, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> I guess we'll see how rim brakes compare in mountain stages of both pro and amateur road races once discs are approved for use. Until then!


It will not make any difference.... It has always been the rider's weight, aerodynamics, skill and above all, fearlessness that determines who reaches the bottom first. The thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death... :thumbsup:


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> So not a single comment or replay to this?
> 
> I take it nobody plans on riding in the rain where there's any dirt involved then.


Not only do I plan to, as I said [IN THIS THREAD] I take a disc bike. This is a winter thing here and for me... Dry, I take a pure go fast road bike usually with rim brakes. Well, they are supposed to go fast, with me on them it is debatable...


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

> So not a single comment or replay to this?


I've never had an issue with discs in the dirt & mud on my mtb. I ride my road bikes in the rain, but not that sort of slop, so I can't comment directly. Maybe riding in a pack you get a spray of slurry at disc level you don't get riding alone? Dunno.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

harryman said:


> I've never had an issue with discs in the dirt & mud on my mtb. I ride my road bikes in the rain, but not that sort of slop, so I can't comment directly. Maybe riding in a pack you get a spray of slurry at disc level you don't get riding alone? Dunno.


He went out alone after the event to do another test with different compound. Then he went out alone again to test another brand entirely. The amount of people had nothing to do with it.


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## timeless (Jun 2, 2007)

MMsRepBike said:


> Who in their right mind thinks this is a good idea?
> 
> Dude goes riding on FLAT dirt roads for FOUR hours with almost no braking and looses all of his pad compound? Repeatedly even, no matter organic or metallic.
> 
> ...


and in that same set up. Lets see how rim brakes would hold up. 
Yes there would be a lot of pad left as they are farther from the rim but while riding you would have zero braking power at all. No braking is very dangerous as well no matter what type of road you are on.
Carbon rims would be a no go on that stuff as any braking would destroy the rim due to the sand paper like effect but that is a different argument. Braking on that surface would do heavy damage to the rims even alloy due to sand paper effect.

Now yeah the guy had some very good possible theory. The mud and gun caused a sand paper like effect on the pads that it is clear there is some design issue that need to be worked out for that extreme. As sram might of been thinking these are for Road. That is more the mess that mountain bikes would see not what you would see at road speeds or distance. 

Just remember rim brakes there would have no stopping power.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

timeless said:


> and in that same set up. Lets see how rim brakes would hold up.


There were several people on rim brakes. None of them had any trouble. Try again. Flat roads. Seriously... flat roads.

So road bikes aren't allowed on dirt roads now?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

timeless said:


> and in that same set up. Lets see how rim brakes would hold up.
> Yes there would be a lot of pad left as they are farther from the rim but while riding you would have zero braking power at all. No braking is very dangerous as well no matter what type of road you are on.
> Carbon rims would be a no go on that stuff as any braking would destroy the rim due to the sand paper like effect but that is a different argument. Braking on that surface would do heavy damage to the rims even alloy due to sand paper effect.
> 
> ...


There's always cantilever brakes. Tried and True.
Shimano is simply a better product than SRAM if your brand shopping.


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## timeless (Jun 2, 2007)

MMsRepBike said:


> There were several people on rim brakes. None of them had any trouble. Try again. Flat roads. Seriously... flat roads.


Again how much stopping power did they have. The answer is not much. Big time when compared to disc. 
Just because a road is flat does not remove the need for braking. 
It may make things more forgiving but does not remove the need. You do not need good braking power until you need it and then you really need it. Everyone has had to slam on their brakes at some point. 
Long story short. I think you missed my point.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

timeless said:


> Again how much stopping power did they have. The answer is not much. Big time when compared to disc.
> Just because a road is flat does not remove the need for braking.
> It may make things more forgiving but does not remove the need. You do not need good braking power until you need it and then you really need it. Everyone has had to slam on their brakes at some point.
> Long story short. I think you missed my point.


Never thought I needed anti-lock brakes on my car either. I still don't. Drive smart and responsibly and you don't get into that situation that ABS might or might not make a difference. Similar thinking applies to road bikes. Ride smart


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

timeless said:


> Just remember rim brakes there would have no stopping power.


I don't think that's true. Although it would be horrible for rim brake track wear, the extra grit would augment and not hinder the wet braking action. The metal grinding action of the slurry would slow the wheel down just as if you touched a honing stone or sandpaper to the rim. Not that I'm advocating rim brakes would be preferable in that situation, brake pads are cheaper/easier to replace than bike rims.

Just think of all the extra energy the rider burned to wear his brake pads down to metal like that... yikes!


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## timeless (Jun 2, 2007)

Trek_5200 said:


> Never thought I needed anti-lock brakes on my car either. I still don't. Drive smart and responsibly and you don't get into that situation that ABS might or might not make a difference. Similar thinking applies to road bikes. Ride smart


And I can give a list of 100s of things that even driving or riding smart would not help you. Thinking otherwise is well let's be blunt stupid and just asking for trouble. Over conference kills just as fast as stupidity. 

Abs in everything but a small handful of conditions stops cars faster.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

timeless said:


> And I can give a list of 100s of things that even driving or riding smart would not help you. Thinking otherwise is well let's be blunt stupid and just asking for trouble. Over conference kills just as fast as stupidity.
> 
> Abs in everything but a small handful of conditions stops cars faster.


Well in the case of ABS I've seen it produce over-confident drivers who take actions that get them in trouble. I'm not outright dismissing that these devices are not beneficial, but sometimes the claims are hyped a bit.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> There were several people on rim brakes. None of them had any trouble. Try again. Flat roads. Seriously... flat roads.
> 
> So road bikes aren't allowed on dirt roads now?



So when you take a road bike on gravel roads and then get a flat tire do you go on forums stating that road tires suck? 
How about when you use an aluminum rim brake pad on a carbon wheel and it doesn't work well? Campy cassette on a Shimano freewheel? 

When you said "Who in their right mind thinks this is a good idea?" I was thinking, yeah, who rides a road bike for 4+ hours in conditions like that. A cross bike, or one of these new gravel bikes, sure, but a road bike? Most people have taken a road bike on a dirt road for a short stint, but that is extreme.

We're talking about 1st generation road disc brakes and pads that are being designed to deal with the potential and unique issues of heat on road descents (which means special compound pads) and you're completely knocking disc brakes because someone threw some outlier situation they were not designed for at them and they didn't work?! ut: 

Disc brakes/pads that have been designed with those conditions in mind have been working for years, flat roads or not it's called right tool for the job. Try again…..


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> Never thought I needed anti-lock brakes on my car either. I still don't. Drive smart and responsibly and you don't get into that situation that ABS might or might not make a difference. Similar thinking applies to road bikes. Ride smart



You don't need ABS, until you do…..



.


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## hill_reaper (Jun 4, 2015)

cooskull said:


> So if the biggest appeal of disc brakes is the more precise modulation, why aren't hydro rim brakes all the rage? The downside is that the wet stopping power probably isn't as good as disc, but on the plus side you get the finer modulation and avoid most of the weight, aero and safety issues. I suppose rim life is still a con too, but realistically how many of us have had to retire a rim due to brake wear- I'm guessing a very small percentage of the general riding population. And yes I know SRAM had a big recall issue with the hydro brakes awhile back, but this was undoubtedly a design flaw rather than an inherent flaw in operational principle.



Easy, they aren't different enough to market!
Totally valid point, very similar benefits to hydro disks. 
the only argument I've heard is that the disk takes the heat off of the rim braking surface. Less likely to blow out a tire on a hot day with lots of braking if using a disk?


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MMsRepBike said:


> There were several people on rim brakes. None of them had any trouble. Try again. Flat roads. Seriously... flat roads.
> 
> *So road bikes aren't allowed on dirt roads now*?


I wondered what those mtb guys were saying to me as I was passing them on that fireroad last week.

Now I know.......


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## hill_reaper (Jun 4, 2015)

I'll toss the racer perspective in here:

cons-
Changing to disks means a nightmare mid-race if you flat. Aligning the rotor in the caliper takes longer and unless it is an identical hub and rotor, chances are its going to rub. 
That said, in the lower levels of racing, where riders are learning to ride in a group, sensitive braking might be more harm than help. I think this will be exaggerated with some racers using disks and other still on rim. At higher levels of racing, it will just be something that needs to be learned. 
I'm also not excited about having to bleed my road brakes, buy more expensive pads, take more time to set them up or listen to screaming rotors (especially from that guy in the race that just doesn't take care of his stuff).

pros-
If I were building up a winter bike to train on, disk would be a no brainer for me. Great, consistent stopping power across all conditions. There no risk of blowing the clincher off the rim on a techy descent with heavy braking especially on carbon wheels. Incredible control in wet weather even in full fingered gloves. 

Another benefit is related to the modern advent of aerodynamics interest and internal routing. Very few modern frames still have external cable routing. No matter what you do, internal routing means friction. Friction means cruddy brake feel. Hydro eliminates the issue. It does make routing significantly more difficult, but it sure feels nice.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

MMsRepBike said:


> So not a single comment or replay to this?
> 
> I take it nobody plans on riding in the rain where there's any dirt involved then.


Shimano good, SRAM bad. So what else is new? Clearance between the pad and rotor may be the issue. I'm always fighting pad rubbing the rotor with my Hayes brakes on my mountain bike. Shimano has a lot of engineers and they do R&D. I don't think SRAM does much in comparison.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> Discs have completely taken over mtn. It taking over cross. Its taking over gravel bikes. And now has started on pure road bikes. Why? They work better. And for carbon wheels, they make more sense. But if you don't like them, then don't use them- nobody is forcing you.


Except most companies seem TO BE forcing us to adopt this "change for the better."

The last thing I want is some overzealous a**hat grabbing a handful of (way too powerful) disc brakes and taking me or a teammate out when he panics.

The simple fact remains: discs don't do anything that my Ultegra calipers (or Red calipers, FTM) can't. 

And yes, I've ridden enough discs to know the difference. BFD. They stop. So what?



timeless said:


> and in that same set up. Lets see how rim brakes would hold up.
> Yes there would be a lot of pad left as they are farther from the rim but while riding you would have zero braking power at all. No braking is very dangerous as well no matter what type of road you are on.
> Carbon rims would be a no go on that stuff as any braking would destroy the rim due to the sand paper like effect but that is a different argument. Braking on that surface would do heavy damage to the rims even alloy due to sand paper effect.
> 
> ...


What the hell are you riding that has "zero braking power at all?" I've ridden Battenkill in sh*tty weather fer chrissakes, and had no stopping issues when the brakes were needed. 1/10th of a second to clear the water from the rim and you're good to go.

If you're having such trouble, stop using cork pads on your carbon rims. They suck.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Except most companies seem TO BE forcing us to adopt this "change for the better."



Yes, because these bike companies are going to take you down to the shed and beat you till you buy a bike with disc brakes









By the time you are "forced" to adapt, you won't care anymore…. Or are you still crying over the lack of downtube shifter bosses on bike? 

In the current real world, there is a lack of good road disc options and the main players just introduced even more rim brake bikes, the "end of the world" is hardly near









> The last thing I want is some overzealous a**hat grabbing a handful of (way too powerful) disc brakes and taking me or a teammate out when he panics.



But, but, but, you just said disc brakes don't do anything your Ultegra/Red calipers can't….. Same a**hat can take you out with a nice rim [brake] job




.


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

As soon as the pros can use disc brakes, (August 2015?), they will eventually be used by them starting on a limited basis but eventually everyone will use them. After that they will become the standard as opposed to the option on new production bikes. The one other thing is the atrocious premium price it costs to get them on a new production model road bike now will go away.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

The pros will use them because the sponsors will supply them, and then the fan boys will buy them because the pros use them.

Marketing


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

MoPho said:


> Yes, because these bike companies are going to take you down to the shed and beat you till you buy a bike with disc brakes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, they are not forcing us today but they are making the transition and eventually that will be all you can buy. It will take a while though. They'll need to get the wheel manufacturers on board and those that make forks. And, as you say there will need to be more players in the disc brake market. However, I see all this as inevitable because it offers then an opportunity to sell us more stuff


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

DaveG said:


> No, they are not forcing us today but they are making the transition and eventually that will be all you can buy. It will take a while though. They'll need to get the wheel manufacturers on board and those that make forks. And, as you say there will need to be more players in the disc brake market. However, I see all this as inevitable because it offers then an opportunity to sell us more stuff



As I just said, by the time it happens you likely won't care anymore. And they are not going to be forcing you then either, you don't have to buy a new bike, you can always keep riding what you have now or turn to the custom and/or used markets if you still believe rim brakes are better 10 years from now. 


Of course these companies need to sell us more stuff, it's innovate or die, that's how business works. Only small niche companies can survive building the same product year in year out. The irony is all the people whining about companies creating stuff just to sell us are likely riding bikes [happily] with stuff the companies came up with to sell us. Where is all the outrage at aero-frames? Clipless pedals? Paddle shifters? Carbon frames and parts? Electronic shifting? 7,8,9,10,&11 speed? Etc…..? Oh right, they got over it.:lol:





.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Guitar Ted Productions: Disc Brakes For Gravel Bikes- The Good And The Bad

I'm thinking disc brakes on most gravel road rides are over kill, are heavier than alternative cable actuated cantilevers, and due to the loose surfaces on most gravel roads, disc brake "power" is never able to be utilized effectively.


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## hill_reaper (Jun 4, 2015)

GlobalGuy said:


> As soon as the pros can use disc brakes, (August 2015?), they will eventually be used by them starting on a limited basis but eventually everyone will use them. After that they will become the standard as opposed to the option on new production bikes. The one other thing is the atrocious premium price it costs to get them on a new production model road bike now will go away.


You know, I thought the same thing. However, at this year's Paris-Roubaix race, the UCI let everyone use disks brakes. I didn't see hardly a rider with disks even though they had the option to and even though they were all riding more "plush" rigs from their sponsors (Etixx-Quickstep rode the Specialized Roubaix which is available in disk versions, Trek Factory, Giant-Alpecin, etc., all had plenty of opportunity to use disks if they wanted). The opportunity to use disks was there and the bikes were available and would have been well suited for the event (incredible tire clearance), yet I didn't see a pro that wasn't riding rim brakes. Even the Orica-Green Edge team that had a large portion of their riders on Scott cyclocross bikes used cantilevers, not disks. 

I not so sure the pros will adopt them right away even when the UCI lifts the ban.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

hill_reaper said:


> You know, I thought the same thing. However, at this year's Paris-Roubaix race, the UCI let everyone use disks brakes. I didn't see hardly a rider with disks even though they had the option to and even though they were all riding more "plush" rigs from their sponsors (Etixx-Quickstep rode the Specialized Roubaix which is available in disk versions, Trek Factory, Giant-Alpecin, etc., all had plenty of opportunity to use disks if they wanted). The opportunity to use disks was there and the bikes were available and would have been well suited for the event (incredible tire clearance), yet I didn't see a pro that wasn't riding rim brakes. Even the Orica-Green Edge team that had a large portion of their riders on Scott cyclocross bikes used cantilevers, not disks.
> 
> I not so sure the pros will adopt them right away even when the UCI lifts the ban.


Not clear, Some riders may be opposed to the weight and aero penalty. It might also depend on the course.


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## hill_reaper (Jun 4, 2015)

Trek_5200 said:


> Not clear, Some riders may be opposed to the weight and aero penalty. It might also depend on the course.


Exactly.
Just because the ban on disks might get lifted in August doesn't mean that suddenly all the Pros will be riding them and then it will trickle down to all consumer level bikes. 

My guess as to why they didn't use them at Roubaix is because of the number of flat tires that occur. That is one of the few races where riders regularly take wheels from Mavic neutral support. Trying to get a disk wheel when needed may have been impossible. 
Also, it was a dry day on a flat course. If it'd been wet, maybe it would have been different.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

MoPho said:


> As I just said, by the time it happens you likely won't care anymore. And they are not going to be forcing you then either, you don't have to buy a new bike, you can always keep riding what you have now or turn to the custom and/or used markets if you still believe rim brakes are better 10 years from now.
> 
> 
> Of course these companies need to sell us more stuff, it's innovate or die, that's how business works. Only small niche companies can survive building the same product year in year out. The irony is all the people whining about companies creating stuff just to sell us are likely riding bikes [happily] with stuff the companies came up with to sell us. Where is all the outrage at aero-frames? Clipless pedals? Paddle shifters? Carbon frames and parts? Electronic shifting? 7,8,9,10,&11 speed? Etc…..? Oh right, they got over it.:lol:
> ...


I think the point you're missing here is, those things were solutions to problems. Aero frame, solves issues of drag in solo efforts. Clipless pedals, safer, easier, and more effective than toe clips. Paddle shifters, keep your hands on the hoods near the brakes - faster shifting and safer when you need to grab the brakes quickly. Carbon frames and parts, all about critical weight savings - makes a huge difference over the course of time. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 speed, more gear choices gives you better options for multiple terrains. 

Notice I skipped electronic shifting. I just don't see it solving any problems (which is one reason I don't have it on my bike). 

What problem does a disc brake solve? Nothing. I can stop my bike just fine in any condition at any time using my existing brake technology. Why would I want to spend tons of money to get ride of my existing wheels (I personally have 3 sets - all of which would be rendered useless) to solve something that's not a problem?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

well caliper brakes don't work well once the tire width becomes too big(or so I've been led to believe), but there's always cantilever brakes


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

GlobalGuy said:


> As soon as the pros can use disc brakes, (August 2015?), they will eventually be used by them starting on a limited basis but eventually everyone will use them. After that they will become the standard as opposed to the option on new production bikes.


We'll see. It all depends on how it goes. If something happens where a race contender loses several minutes because of a wheel change issue, the whole disc idea will be rethought.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> well caliper brakes don't work well once the tire width becomes too big(or so I've been led to believe), but there's always cantilever brakes


What???
Just what size tires are you running?
Even with me throwing on some 30mm tires, my calipers work fine.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

tlg said:


> We'll see. It all depends on how it goes. If something happens where a race contender loses several minutes because of a wheel change issue, the whole disc idea will be rethought.


Totally agree.
Notice how, for the past 2 years, you've seen pros moving more and more towards electronic shifting, now this year, you're seeing more and more pros who are running mechanical setups? Even some of the big name guys. Solutions looking for problems typically don't stick around long. Hopefully that's the case here.

Oh, and for those who think that it's the supreme solution for a LONG descent, just wait until your disc super heats from that and starts melting pads or god forbid, hubs that are close by.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I suspect the teams with primary sponsors that 'are' the bike makers will exude more influence on the hardware utilized ultimately. Probably going to be more about the quest to have the disc bike buying public seeing them and wanting them then the riders seeing them and not wanting them.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

hill_reaper said:


> Exactly.
> Just because the ban on disks might get lifted in August doesn't mean that suddenly all the Pros will be riding them and then it will trickle down to all consumer level bikes.
> 
> My guess as to why they didn't use them at Roubaix is because of the number of flat tires that occur. That is one of the few races where riders regularly take wheels from Mavic neutral support. Trying to get a disk wheel when needed may have been impossible.
> Also, it was a dry day on a flat course. If it'd been wet, maybe it would have been different.


Roubaix already permits cantilivers, which solves the problem of braking on the larger tires.

Top cyclocross pros still stick-in-the-muds as regards disc brakes - VeloNews.com

But an informal survey of the elite men’s and women’s races turned up not a single disc brake. While riders in Europe have embraced new wheel, tire, frame, and drivetrain technologies in recent years, they remain steadfastly faithful to the cantilever brake designs that have hardly changed in decades.
While to some the reluctance to adopt this single piece of new technology might seem incongruous, riders and mechanics offered a myriad of compelling reasons for continuing to race with their familiar, traditional brakesets.
“If you look at it from a really practical point of view, cyclocross is not a discipline that’s about braking,” said Stefan Wyman, husband and mechanic to British champion Helen Wyman (Kona). “It’s a discipline that’s about not braking.

Read more at Top cyclocross pros still stick-in-the-muds as regards disc brakes - VeloNews.com


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Corenfa said:


> What problem does a disc brake solve? Nothing. I can stop my bike just fine in any condition at any time using my existing brake technology. Why would I want to spend tons of money to get ride of my existing wheels (I personally have 3 sets - all of which would be rendered useless) to solve something that's not a problem?


While I agree there isn't a problem being solved with disks, it's an improvement. Carbon frames were an improvement over Al frames in weight and ride quality.

The only problems I can see disks solving,

1) The worn brake track. I have never worn a brake track, but people do.
2) Braking with carbon wheels in the wet. This has improved recently, but it's still not up to Al rim with kool stop salmon pads.

No one is forcing you to get disks at this point, not like mtb and 26" bikes. Go try and buy a decent mtb in 26" right now. You can't. 

I think at some point, most of the new road bikes will have disks. It will be slower than mtb and dumping 26" bikes. Mtb riders beat the piss out of their bikes and need new parts and bikes more often.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Corenfa said:


> I think the point you're missing here is, those things were solutions to problems. Aero frame, solves issues of drag in solo efforts. Clipless pedals, safer, easier, and more effective than toe clips. Paddle shifters, keep your hands on the hoods near the brakes - faster shifting and safer when you need to grab the brakes quickly. Carbon frames and parts, all about critical weight savings - makes a huge difference over the course of time. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 speed, more gear choices gives you better options for multiple terrains.
> 
> Notice I skipped electronic shifting. I just don't see it solving any problems (which is one reason I don't have it on my bike).
> 
> What problem does a disc brake solve? Nothing. I can stop my bike just fine in any condition at any time using my existing brake technology. Why would I want to spend tons of money to get ride of my existing wheels (I personally have 3 sets - all of which would be rendered useless) to solve something that's not a problem?



Nice try but none of those things you listed were "problems" until someone came up with a solution to it:
Aeroframes - completely unnecessary until someone came out with an aero frame
Clipless pedals - people used toe clips for decades just fine
Paddle shifters- People used downtube shifters for decades just fine
Weight savings - again, no one needed light carbon until someone came out with it. Hardly critical even now. 
Gear choices - People got by on 5 speeds or less for decades

Nothing there is a solution to a problem, they are merely improvements to existing technology and no one knew they needed any of it until it came out. 

Now on the other hand, disc is both an improvement and a solution to a problem. The problem (for some) is overheating carbon rims (or any rim) and poor wet weather performance. 
The improvement is better feel and modulation. And disc brakes allow for later braking into corners on technical descents, which saves time and makes you faster, so that would make it just as useful as having a light bike or an aero frame. As an aggressive and fast descender, this would be useful to me. And on a safety level, I don't have to worry about overheating my rims when I get stuck in traffic on a descent or have to come to a sudden complete stop from high speed. Just like most of the stuff on my bike, I don't need it, I want it. 

As I noted earlier it seems the real problem is not with disc brakes but with the fact that you have too much invested in rim brakes (as do I), but why not just admit that instead of coming up with continuous BS as to why disc brakes "suck" or aren't needed?


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> well caliper brakes don't work well once the tire width becomes too big(or so I've been led to believe), but there's always cantilever brakes


How so? The calipers for discs are mounted lower, where the opening is wider.

tire width is an issue for regular rim brakes.

I ditched the cantis on my cross bike for mini-V brakes because I hated the lack thereof braking on cantis.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Nice try but none of those things you listed were "problems" until someone came up with a solution to it:
> Aeroframes - completely unnecessary until someone came out with an aero frame
> Clipless pedals - people used toe clips for decades just fine
> Paddle shifters- People used downtube shifters for decades just fine
> ...


Sorry - no. Do you even ride bro? 

I've never had a problem hard braking into a corner, in the wet, with carbon. I've never had a problem with modulation. Ever. And if someone is locking hard on a brake into a corner, then they're going to cause issues behind them. 

As for your assertion that the other things weren't "problems" until the solution was found is utter bull sh*t.

People knew that bikes weren't aero enough in their current (previous) configurations and sought out ways to make them more aero. Hence all of the different design configurations that were trialled. 

Downtube shifters - people used them just fine, but many complained that it was difficult to respond to quick attacks and could easily over or under shift. 

To say that no one needed a lighter bike until carbon came out is just misinformed and frankly stupid. People were always looking for ways to make bikes lighter. Literally as far as grinding off excess metal or paint, using alternative materials, moving to Ti in the 80s, etc. People have always looked for a performance edge.

Disc brakes does not SOLVE any problem. And as I mentioned, I DO have a bike with discs and I do ride it. On the road. A lot. Do you? Have you ever actually taken a 5 mile descent where you lose 4,000' of altitude? I have. On rim brakes. No problems.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> Guitar Ted Productions: Disc Brakes For Gravel Bikes- The Good And The Bad
> 
> I'm thinking disc brakes on most gravel road rides are over kill, are heavier than alternative cable actuated cantilevers, and due to the loose surfaces on most gravel roads, disc brake "power" is never able to be utilized effectively.


Uhhhhhhhh
Maybe it's Ted, but disk brakes are NOT about the power. It's about the modulation and ease of use. That modulation is key on looser terrain like gravel.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ziscwg said:


> Uhhhhhhhh
> Maybe it's Ted, but disk brakes are NOT about the power. It's about the modulation and ease of use. That modulation is key on looser terrain like gravel.


Saying you have "poor modulation" on your caliper brakes is congruent to saying you have dumb fingers. 

You simply don't need the same modulation that a mountain bike would need because you're not riding on the same terrain. 

There's plenty of modulation in calipers if you bother to correctly set distance from the rim and pad compound.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

And with over 160 posts, the keyboard penis size contest continues...










...Still waiting for the anti-disc people to actually ride a road or CX bike with disc before they type. Only two have actual experience so far.


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

Disc extra weight of pro racer frames not a problem. Their bikes are so light now that they have to add "extra" weight to meet the minimum weight standard. The disc setup would simply be part of the extra weight added to meet minimum.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Corenfa said:


> *Notice how, for the past 2 years, you've seen pros moving more and more towards electronic shifting, now this year, you're seeing more and more pros who are running mechanical setups? Even some of the big name guys. * Solutions looking for problems typically don't stick around long. Hopefully that's the case here..


where are you getting this info? i'm quite curious.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Tig said:


> And with over 160 posts, the keyboard penis size contest continues...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are too busy screaming at people to get off their lawn.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Corenfa said:


> Sorry - no. Do you even ride bro?
> 
> I've never had a problem hard braking into a corner, in the wet, with carbon. I've never had a problem with modulation. Ever. And if someone is locking hard on a brake into a corner, then they're going to cause issues behind them.
> 
> ...



Sorry "bro", but looking for a performance edge does not equal real problems that need to be solved, nor is any of it something you actually need unless your paycheck comes from winning races. Everything you are arguing is merely an incremental improvement of existing technology, just the same as disc brakes. 

And yes, I do a 5+ mile 40-50mph, very technical descent several times a week. And yes I do it with rim brakes no problem, but why settle?! If you had actually read my first post in this discussion I noted how one of the guys I ride with on our regular Thursday night mountain ride gets away from me on his disc bike but not on his rim brake bike. He alternates quite often, it was not a fluke. Seems like a real performance edge to me and many reviewers have noted the same thing of disc road bikes. 









.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Saying you have "poor modulation" on your caliper brakes is congruent to saying you have dumb fingers.
> 
> You simply don't need the same modulation that a mountain bike would need because you're not riding on the same terrain.
> 
> There's plenty of modulation in calipers if you bother to correctly set distance from the rim and pad compound.


His reference of who I quoted was about similar terrain....fire roads.

As for calipers, I would not call the modulation poor in general (especially with the SwissStop BXP pads). However, the disk modulation is way better and takes half the effort.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> They are too busy screaming at people to get off their lawn.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MoPho said:


> Sorry "bro", but looking for a performance edge does not equal real problems that need to be solved, nor is any of it something you actually need unless your paycheck comes from winning races. Everything you are arguing is merely an incremental improvement of existing technology, just the same as disc brakes.
> 
> And yes, I do a 5+ mile 40-50mph, very technical descent several times a week. And yes I do it with rim brakes no problem, but why settle?! If you had actually read my first post in this discussion I noted how one of the guys I ride with on our regular Thursday night mountain ride gets away from me on his disc bike but not on his rim brake bike. He alternates quite often, it was not a fluke. *Seems like a real performance edge to me and many reviewers have noted the same thing of disc road bikes. *
> 
> ...



Get off my lawn!!!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Tig said:


> And with over 160 posts, the keyboard penis size contest continues...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ridden both.

Don't care. Nothing special that my Ultegra or Red doesn't do.

If you complain about "modulation" consider working on your grip strength.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Didn't someone recently request an old fogey forum? Did this happen already and I missed it?!


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## dir-t (Oct 14, 2005)

Tig said:


> And with over 160 posts, the keyboard penis size contest continues...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I'll make it three then. 

I haven't read most of this thread so I don't know what those other guys opinions are. Here's my observations after a year on a CX bike with, uh, shoot I forget what kind of cable actuated discs. I think some sort of Hayes model. I have about 9 years on my road bike with Ultegra rim brakes. Also about 14 years on MTBs with a variety of discs and currently on 2013 XT discs.

I don't ride my road bike in the rain so I wouldn't spend the extra $ or weight on discs. My rim brakes work fine for all of my riding on the road. In fact, I'm still on the original pads. I ride road about 1k per year and don't drag my brakes on the downhills. I think that's a big variable - folks coming from a MTB background may be more used to "pumping" the brakes rather than dragging them. 

In fact, the discs on my CX bike have been so finicky (hard to keep the rotor from rubbing) I sometimes wish I would have bought something with rim brakes instead. I really don't notice a great improvement in braking although I blame that on them being cable actuated by a road bike lever. I do think the mech that built my CX bike was a bit sloppy with dialing everything in though and I need to take some time to do that. But I really don't notice a giant difference in braking performance between the road and CX bike. 

All of my hydraulic MTB brakes have been amazing and the current set up kicks ***. Shimano's "Ice Technology" seems to have almost doubled the amount of mileage I can get on a set of pads.

As far as the folks complaining about short pad wear, just keep in mind that a trashed rotor can ruin a pad in short order. Both me and my wife have let rotors wear down to the point where we were only getting a few rides out of a set of pads.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Sorry "bro", but looking for a performance edge does not equal real problems that need to be solved, nor is any of it something you actually need unless your paycheck comes from winning races. Everything you are arguing is merely an incremental improvement of existing technology, just the same as disc brakes.
> 
> And yes, I do a 5+ mile 40-50mph, very technical descent several times a week. And yes I do it with rim brakes no problem, but why settle?! If you had actually read my first post in this discussion I noted how one of the guys I ride with on our regular Thursday night mountain ride gets away from me on his disc bike but not on his rim brake bike. He alternates quite often, it was not a fluke. Seems like a real performance edge to me and many reviewers have noted the same thing of disc road bikes.
> .


First, "Bro" that was a play on "Do you even lift, bro?" As in - a JOKE. 

Second, yes, performance improvement by nature implies a solution to a problem. That's precisely what the concept of systems engineering - an entire engineering discipline - is about. The "problem" is that a bike is overweight and causes a rider to go slower up hills. The solution is a lighter bike. The path towards that solution comes from alternative materials (one alternative), removing components (another alternative), placing mass at different points (another alternative), or a combination (yet another alternative). 

You see, this is called an "Analysis of Alternatives" which is an engineering process associated with determining a solution to a...wait for it... PROBLEM. 

Please tell me precisely what "problem" is solved by disc brakes?

The bike won't stop fast enough - Nope, the bike stops fast enough using calipers.
The brakes don't modulate - Nope, modulation is fine on the calipers.
The rim blows out - Nope, there have been technical innovations that have helped this a great deal and rim blow outs aren't very common anymore.

So again, I ask, what "problem" is being solved by discs?

And for the record, I'm one of the people referenced here that rides both. I don't care what's on the bike. I'll ride it. There's just no problem being solved here.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

r1lee said:


> where are you getting this info? i'm quite curious.


Hi r1lee - 
Check out GCN videos. They do a lot of profiling of pro bikes of the peloton. A surprising number of those bikes they profile have mechanical groupsets on them now. This is empirical at best, I know, but it's still telling when you see some of the big names opting for mechanical.

Granted, I think the HUGE advantage of the electronic sets are the sprint or climber's shift buttons. That's hugely convenient!


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Corenfa said:


> First, "Bro" that was a play on "Do you even lift, bro?" As in - a JOKE.
> 
> Second, yes, performance improvement by nature implies a solution to a problem. That's precisely what the concept of systems engineering - an entire engineering discipline - is about. The "problem" is that a bike is overweight and causes a rider to go slower up hills. The solution is a lighter bike. The path towards that solution comes from alternative materials (one alternative), removing components (another alternative), placing mass at different points (another alternative), or a combination (yet another alternative).
> 
> ...


Corenfa,

Your post is pretty funny.

Let's take weight for example.

What problem is the Trek Emonda solving? And if it's indeed solving a problem, can you quantify the results? 

My current bike seems to climb "fast enough" so I'm curious.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

arai_speed said:


> Corenfa,
> 
> Your post is pretty funny.
> 
> ...


Ha. In that case - point of diminishing returns. Or maybe trek felt that your wallet weight was too heavy. 

Part of systems engineering that I brought up before is a trade off. If you shave off weight, do you impact safety? And if so, how much risk is one willing to assume?

Me? I'm not willing to assume the risk or spending $15k on a bike that says Trek on it, so the trade off for me is pretty simple. 

I also want to point out, I'm definitely not a Luddite. Hell, even my pedals are carbon. Bring me every performance gain I can buy short of Lance's blood and I'm good.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

stanseven said:


> Wow. Something is wrong. Do you ride in mountainous areas? Does she ride the brakes constantly?


it is mountainous. She does not ride the brakes, she is lightweight person. Trying the Shimano carbon rim brake pads now. And will try Swiss stop if she kills the Shimano


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

arai_speed said:


> Corenfa,
> 
> Your post is pretty funny.
> 
> Let's take weight for example.


Yes lets take weight.  (For example.)

Regarding the performance of a road bike weight is an important factor. No doubt about it. It's just not as proportionately physically as important as some make it out to be. Not even close. 

Gosh, just love this thread...it's a good example of why I waited three years of reading the site until I decided to join. Reading some of the posts makes the site seem at times like its the "Jerry Springer Online Road Bike Show."


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Corenfa said:


> First, "Bro" that was a play on "Do you even lift, bro?" As in - a JOKE.
> 
> Second, yes, performance improvement by nature implies a solution to a problem. That's precisely what the concept of systems engineering - an entire engineering discipline - is about. The "problem" is that a bike is overweight and causes a rider to go slower up hills. The solution is a lighter bike. The path towards that solution comes from alternative materials (one alternative), removing components (another alternative), placing mass at different points (another alternative), or a combination (yet another alternative).
> 
> ...




Do you even descend, bro?!

I already pointed you towards an improvement in performance with disc brakes (and yes, the bike can stop faster, and yes, there can be more modulation, and yes, rims do still blow out, and tire pressures change when you put heat into the rim), so there is your "solution to a problem" 

NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!




.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

JasonC71 said:


> Thanks guys. I'm guessing I need to upgrade the brakes on my bike. Currently...well they suck. Both modulation and stopping power are a joke vs my mtb. Granted, the mtb is oufitted with xt and ice tech rotors...so one finger stopping and modulation is very real on that bike. My road bike? Not so much.
> 
> I will continue the discussion in beginners on what to get. Thanks.


I too came over from mtb. I have never understood the disc is better debate. My 
1993 GT mtb with stock Deore LX brakes is heads and heels better than my road bike brakes(Athena) and my new 29er's disc brakes.
I will not make the switch, however I don't get the big deal with regards to the issue. It just seems that people with disc brakes or Di2 want to jam it down the throats of anybody who does not have or want them. I am of the mind that says to get what you want. In a previous thread a poster actually wrote that only people who couldnt afford them did not want them. For me, it is attitudes like that which turn me off of the debate. It's a personal preference just like frame material or brand of groupset.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

GlobalGuy said:


> Gosh, just love this thread...it's a good example of why I waited three years of reading the site until I decided to join. Reading some of the posts makes the site seem at times like its the "Jerry Springer Online Road Bike Show."


Interesting statement. So, what made you join? I will note in passing that you do seem to enjoy making posts that contribute absolutely, positively nothing to this thread or the forum at large, judging from this particular example.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Shuffleman said:


> I too came over from mtb. I have never understood the disc is better debate. My
> 1993 GT mtb with stock Deore LX brakes is heads and heels better than my road bike brakes(Athena) and my new 29er's disc brakes.


I am throwing the -- BS flag -- 

You must have some really bad disc brakes on your new 29er. 

I rode early 90s cantilevers, mid/late 90's v-brakes, as well as newer shimano hydraulic discs. The assertion that early 90s cantis are better than modern hydraulic discs is completely ridiculous. 

If your 93 gt has those POS under the chain stay u-pull caliper brakes, I know you are lying. I don't recall when GT gave up on that design, but I know I worked on more than a few of those chunks of crap.

FWIW: I don't currently own a road bike with discs. But, I did end up getting rained on for two hours of my ride earlier today. It would have been nice to have brakes that would have actually worked during that time. I decided to change my planned route b/c i did not want to do one of the descents in the rain with my normal (2014 ultegra on alloy) rim brakes.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Corenfa said:


> First, "Bro" that was a play on "Do you even lift, bro?" As in - a JOKE.
> 
> Second, yes, performance improvement by nature implies a solution to a problem. That's precisely what the concept of systems engineering - an entire engineering discipline - is about. The "problem" is that a bike is overweight and causes a rider to go slower up hills. The solution is a lighter bike. The path towards that solution comes from alternative materials (one alternative), removing components (another alternative), placing mass at different points (another alternative), or a combination (yet another alternative).
> 
> ...


Engineers don't wait for problems to come up to fix. They create their own problems by thinking that can improve upon an existing design.



Corenfa said:


> Ha. In that case - point of diminishing returns. Or maybe trek felt that your wallet weight was too heavy.
> 
> Part of systems engineering that I brought up before is a trade off. If you shave off weight, do you impact safety? And if so, how much risk is one willing to assume?
> 
> ...


AoA isn't technically a core part of the SE V-model. It always starts with an input of "Requirements".

So somewhere along the lines, at a bike company someone identified an issue(s) with the current dual pivot brakes.

But, yes, at the bottom of the V, integration of a MTB disc brake concept got to a design review (with the AoA/Trade-off studies, etc).... where someone of a higher level decision authority said approved of the disc brake over HTFU (do nothing option).

What were the original requirements or customer needs? I don't work for a bike company, so I wouldn't know.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

tednugent said:


> Engineers don't wait for problems to come up to fix. They create their own problems by thinking that can improve upon an existing design.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, very true. Though, ideally, a problem *would* present itself and that would kick off the V. And yeah, the AoA isn't a core part, but it is part of requirements and architecture analysis early in the V. 

But yeah, that's true.

Original requirements or needs can come from many sources. They can conduct surveys, they can get expert input, or they can pull it from their rectum. Just one of many ways to determine what is or is not a problem.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

It looks like the disc brake hate is for mechanical disc brakes and none of it is for good hydro (shimano) disc brakes. Rain was forecasted for last nights ride so I parked the bike with zipp 303s and rode the synapse with hydros. brakes were fantastic...much easier to modulate and prevent lockup. I can also prevent locking up the rear wight the zips but I have to worry about it a lot more.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Nobody is saying that disc brakes don't work. Only that for a great many riders they are providing a solution to a problem we're not experiencing. The 'hate' comes from a dislike of the marketing b.s. that is both forcing this solution down our throats and raising the cost of buying and maintaining a bike. Pretty soon a bike will cost more than a car. A new bike can easily exceed the cost of a used car at this time already.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

dir-t said:


> Here's my observations after a year on a CX bike with, uh, shoot I forget what kind of cable actuated discs. I think some sort of Hayes model.
> 
> In fact, the discs on my CX bike have been so finicky (hard to keep the rotor from rubbing) I sometimes wish I would have bought something with rim brakes instead. I really don't notice a great improvement in braking although I blame that on them being cable actuated by a road bike lever. I do think the mech that built my CX bike was a bit sloppy with dialing everything in though and I need to take some time to do that. But I really don't notice a giant difference in braking performance between the road and CX bike.


Yeah, the Hayes cable discs on my 29'er aren't nearly as useful as my full suspension XC's _old _hydraulics. I have to manually center them frequently. When CX shopping I avoided all cable discs. 

The good news is the TRP HY/RD Cable-Actuated Hydraulic use any existing brake levers so you can retrofit them and gain most of the power and feel an all hydraulic system has. 
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=trp+hy/rd+cable/hydro+disc


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## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> Nobody is saying that disc brakes don't work. Only that for a great many riders they are providing a solution to a problem we're not experiencing. The 'hate' comes from a dislike of the marketing b.s. that is both forcing this solution down our throats and raising the cost of buying and maintaining a bike. Pretty soon a bike will cost more than a car. A new bike can easily exceed the cost of a used car at this time already.


^This.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> Nobody is saying that disc brakes don't work. Only that for a great many riders they are providing a solution to a problem we're not experiencing. The 'hate' comes from a dislike of the marketing b.s. that is both forcing this solution down our throats and raising the cost of buying and maintaining a bike. Pretty soon a bike will cost more than a car. A new bike can easily exceed the cost of a used car at this time already.


You can say this every time manufacturers add another cog to the cassette.... shimano adding electronic shifting...

but the difference is, people with deep pockets easily accepted the new technology for issues that may not have existed, but since the pros are using it.... they want to be using the latest and greatest.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

hill_reaper said:


> Easy, they aren't different enough to market!
> Totally valid point, very similar benefits to hydro disks.
> the only argument I've heard is that the disk takes the heat off of the rim braking surface. Less likely to blow out a tire on a hot day with lots of braking if using a disk?


I have Magura RT8's on my TT bike and I really like them. They are kind of a waste on that bike for me though as I rarely apply them while riding that bike. 
Based on the RT8's I wouldn't mind a hydro rim brake on my road bike. It seems like it would be the best of both worlds. 

I was watching the Tour de Suisse the other day and they did a segment on UCI races and disc brakes. If I remember correctly they said that they would allow each team to run discs for 2 events of their choice in the 2016 season and then open it up to all races in 2017. I think after that by 18' or 19' almost all high end road bikes will be disc equipped just like mountain and cross bikes. Only lower level bikes, Tiagra, Sore, Apex will come with rim brakes. 

That's not something I'm looking forward to but it's going to happen with the main driver being to sell more bikes and equipment.


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

tednugent said:


> but the difference is, people with deep pockets easily accepted the new technology for issues that may not have existed, but since the pros are using it.... they want to be using the latest and greatest.


But the pros aren't using it. This time it's going backwards. It's being put on the pros to use from the consumer market, not the other way. It's not trickling down like it should, it's trickling up. Disc road bikes have been out for years now. 

This is not some technology born in racing and given to us mortals. It's not working like that here. We're beta testers for what they'll want to force on the pros, the whole thing just stinks.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

8 pages of argument club. Monty Python would approve


----------



## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

12345


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> Nobody is saying that disc brakes don't work. Only that for a great many riders they are providing a solution to a problem we're not experiencing. The 'hate' comes from a dislike of the marketing b.s. that is both forcing this solution down our throats and raising the cost of buying and maintaining a bike. Pretty soon a bike will cost more than a car. A new bike can easily exceed the cost of a used car at this time already.


So what problem does carbon fiber rims solve? Why are they so popular?


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## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> 8 pages of argument club. Monty Python would approve


No he wouldn't.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> But the pros aren't using it. This time it's going backwards. It's being put on the pros to use from the consumer market, not the other way. *It's not trickling down like it should, it's trickling up. *


What makes you think bike tech "trickling down" should be the natural order of things? Me thinks you have it backwards on which rider group the bike manufacturers make their money on and which group is the drain on said money. Currently the baby boomer crowd is buying most of the new bikes out there and that's exactly who most bike makers are going to schmooze. Like it or not, bike makers are simply following the money trail.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Coolhand said:


> 8 pages of argument club. Monty Python would approve



No they wouldn't!!


----------



## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

cooskull said:


> What makes you think bike tech "trickling down" should be the natural order of things? Me thinks you have it backwards on which rider group the bike manufacturers make their money on and which group is the drain on said money. Currently the baby boomer crowd is buying most of the new bikes out there and that's exactly who most bike makers are going to schmooze. Like it or not, bike makers are simply following the money trail.


Most people should be focused on what makes riding better for them, not what the pros are riding. So many are, what is the word, poseurs, wankers, whatever...


----------



## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> I am throwing the -- BS flag --
> 
> You must have some really bad disc brakes on your new 29er.
> 
> ...


I am quite certain that the brakes on my 29er are on the lower end (Tektro Novela, Mechanical disc, 160mm). Regardless, they do not stop as well as my old GT that I mentioned earlier. I am not impressed by them but that is what came on the bike. I am not sure what you used to work on but the old GT's were very solid bikes and not "chunks of crap". In fact, prior to their selling the company, I would put the old triple triangle up there with any bike.
Your attitude is really what turns many of us off when it comes to Di2 and disc brakes. If somebody does not agree with you they are simply "BS". We all have different experiences and different opinions. Let people enjoy what they enjoy without being labled or blasted because their experience is not the same as yours or because you view whatever you ride as superior.
By the way, back in the 80's and early 90's what mtb did you ride? What were the top brands back then?


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> So what problem does carbon fiber rims solve? Why are they so popular?


Well, actually, the purpose there was to create a wheel with greater aerodynamic properties while minimizing weight. Imagine an aluminum disc wheel or even a 50mm mid-deep section made from aluminum. It just also happens to have trickled down to low profile/box sections as well (though, for the life of me, I can't figure out why).


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

mfdemicco said:


> So what problem does carbon fiber rims solve? Why are they so popular?


talking to the wrong guy on this one. i'm on dura ace c-24's which barely qualify.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Coolhand said:


> 8 pages of argument club. Monty Python would approve


The good news is, a subject has finally emerged (disc brakes on road bikes) that gets more clicks and discussion than the best chain lube.


----------



## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

ibericb said:


> The good news is, a subject has finally emerged (disc brakes on road bikes) that gets more clicks and discussion than the best chain lube.


Does Trek make good bikes?


----------



## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Corenfa said:


> Does Trek make good bikes?


No, they're made in China.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> No, they're made in China.


Wait, they're made in China? I thought all Treks were made in Wisconsin, and all Pinarellos were made in Italy, and all BMCs were made in Germany, China makes bikes? I hope they don't make wheels, especially with disc brakes! :-O


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Corenfa said:


> Wait, they're made in China? I thought all Treks were made in Wisconsin, and all Pinarellos were made in Italy, and all BMCs were made in Germany, China makes bikes? I hope they don't make wheels, especially with disc brakes! :-O


Trek only makes a small percentage of their bikes in the U.S. these days. Their top end bikes, typically the high end Madone. The cost advantage is simply too much for the bean counters to ignore.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> Trek only makes a small percentage of their bikes in the U.S. these days. Their top end bikes, typically the high end Madone. The cost advantage is simply too much for the bean counters to ignore.


I was joking... ;-)


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

GlobalGuy said:


> Yes lets take weight.  (For example.)
> 
> Regarding the performance of a road bike weight is an important factor. No doubt about it. It's just not as proportionately physically as important as some make it out to be. Not even close.
> 
> Gosh, just love this thread...it's a good example of why I waited three years of reading the site until I decided to join. Reading some of the posts makes the site seem at times like its the "*Jerry Springer Online Road Bike Show.*"


Thank you for the compliment.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MoPho said:


> Do you even descend, bro?!
> 
> I already pointed you towards an improvement in performance with disc brakes (and yes, the bike can stop faster, and yes, there can be more modulation, and yes, rims do still blow out, and tire pressures change when you put heat into the rim), so there is your "solution to a problem"
> 
> ...


He's on your lawn too?????
We might have to report him.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Pirx said:


> Interesting statement. So, what made you join? I will note in passing that* you do seem to enjoy making posts that contribute absolutely, positively nothing to this thread or the forum at large*, judging from this particular example.


WTF
That is my job, useless comments with little or no relevance


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Shuffleman said:


> I too came over from mtb. I have never understood the disc is better debate. My
> 1993 GT mtb with stock Deore LX brakes is heads and heels better than my road bike brakes(Athena) and my new 29er's disc brakes.
> I will not make the switch, however I don't get the big deal with regards to the issue. It just seems that people with disc brakes or Di2 want to jam it down the throats of anybody who does not have or want them. I am of the mind that says to get what you want. In a previous thread a poster actually wrote that only people who couldnt afford them did not want them. For me, it is attitudes like that which turn me off of the debate. It's a personal preference just like frame material or brand of groupset.





crit_boy said:


> I am throwing the -- BS flag --
> 
> You must have some really bad disc brakes on your new 29er.
> 
> ...



I agree with critboy here. My first thought that his 29er brakes are set up horribly wrong or the pads are contaminated.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

tednugent said:


> Engineers don't wait for problems to come up to fix.* They create their own problems by thinking that can improve upon an existing design.*


Ain't that the truth...............LOL

oh, I am one of those.

I had a landscaped designer that I worked out with many yrs back that summed up engineers well. 

He said,
*"Engineers are taught a little bit about everything. Yet, the think the know everything about everything."
*


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Donn12 said:


> It looks like the disc brake hate is for mechanical disc brakes and none of it is for good hydro (shimano) disc brakes. Rain was forecasted for last nights ride so I parked the bike with zipp 303s and rode the synapse with hydros. brakes were fantastic...much easier to modulate and prevent lockup. I can also prevent locking up the rear wight the zips but I have to worry about it a lot more.


Get off my lawn...............

The weird thing is I'm only referring to disk brakes that are hydro. I have ridden on CX bike with BB7 Road disks (older cdale). While it was nicer on the DH, they still pale in comparison to the road hydros I have ridden.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Coolhand Luke said:


> 8 pages of argument club. Monty Python would approve





Love Handle Commander said:


> 12345



It must be my settings on RBR as I have 3 pages on this thread. My goal is to have 5 pages of insightful comments and useful dialog by then end of the week.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

mfdemicco said:


> Most people should be focused on what makes riding better for them, not what the pros are riding. So many are, what is the word, poseurs, wankers, whatever...


I think only a few are actual poseurs. You know, the ones that buy the big $$$ bike and ride to the coffee shop to hang out. That is a poseur to me.

Here on RBR and similar sites, I think riders see a pro or elite guy with "those rims" or the DI2 and think, "If I have that, I'll be better"

While that might be true, the gains are marginal at best and only start to matter when you do many of them. When you add the marginal gains together, you can see improvement, but an empty wallet. This concept still ignores the most important fact in going faster.................the engine.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Shuffleman said:


> *I am quite certain that the brakes on my 29er are on the lower end (Tektro Novela, Mechanical disc, 160mm). *Regardless, they do not stop as well as my old GT that I mentioned earlier. I am not impressed by them but that is what came on the bike. I am not sure what you used to work on but the old GT's were very solid bikes and not "chunks of crap". In fact, prior to their selling the company, I would put the old triple triangle up there with any bike.
> Your attitude is really what turns many of us off when it comes to Di2 and disc brakes. If somebody does not agree with you they are simply "BS". We all have different experiences and different opinions. Let people enjoy what they enjoy without being labled or blasted because their experience is not the same as yours or because you view whatever you ride as superior.
> By the way, back in the 80's and early 90's what mtb did you ride? What were the top brands back then?


Now I see the problem. Tektro and mechanical disk on mtb.

Either one of those are not great for mtb. Put them together and I'd rather stop with my feet.

If you want real brakes for your mtb, go get some Shimano SLX with Icetech rotors. Then, you will see what we are taking about. Oh, be careful the first time you ride with them. The stopping power could toss you over the bars with one finger.

Happy trails..........


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Corenfa said:


> Well, actually, the purpose there was to create a wheel with greater aerodynamic properties while minimizing weight.* Imagine an aluminum disc wheel or even a 50mm mid-deep section made from aluminum. I*t just also happens to have trickled down to low profile/box sections as well (though, for the life of me, I can't figure out why).


They call them Fixie wheels and they come in all sorts of colors, but only single speed hubs


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> I think only a few are actual poseurs. You know, the ones that buy the big $$$ bike and ride to the coffee shop to hang out. That is a poseur to me.
> 
> Here on RBR and similar sites, I think riders see a pro or elite guy with "those rims" or the DI2 and think, "If I have that, I'll be better"
> 
> While that might be true, the gains are marginal at best and only start to matter when you do many of them. When you add the marginal gains together, you can see improvement, but an empty wallet. This concept still ignores the most important fact in going faster.................the engine.



But those marginal gains were problems in need of a solution, so it makes it ok :idea:


.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> They call them Fixie wheels and they come in all sorts of colors, but only single speed hubs



Them fixie riders don't even need no brakes, rim brakes are just a solution looking for a problem 



.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> 8 pages of argument club. Monty Python would approve





ibericb said:


> The good news is, a subject has finally emerged (disc brakes on road bikes) that gets more clicks and discussion than the best chain lube.


Wait, I thought we were going OT and discussing Brit humor now. Oh crap. I'm going back to cleaning my tongue with sandpapper


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MoPho said:


> But those marginal gains were problems in need of a solution, so it makes it ok :idea:
> 
> 
> .


Not really problems, more like a desire to get better while ignoring the 800 lb gorilla.

I do fine on my 1600 gr, 30 mm deep wheels that only have the ancient 10 speed cassette on them. Are they a problem??? No. Would I do marginally better on some 1400 gr carbon wheels???? Yep.....

However, I found I'd rather work on the engine with my limited training time. So, I got a power meter instead. The power meter has benefits across all my riding disciplines, not just road. 

Ya think those 1400 gr carbon road wheels are doing me any good climbing that Downieville XC race climb (5.5 mi, 9% starting elev 4200 ft)????? Nope, but the power meter will.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

What was the OP original question??

Who makes the best in store bakery apple pie??

Or was it

Which dogs are better, Corgis or Goldens?


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

ziscwg said:


> It must be my settings on RBR as I have 3 pages on this thread. My goal is to have 5 pages of insightful comments and useful dialog by then end of the week.


I would like to contribute with this:






I'm sure this applies to the topic at hand on some level.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Having experienced the dramatic improvement in stiffness brought to me by BB30, I can hardly wait for disc brakes.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Holly warped discs Batman.

No one has posted to the bloated thread in the last hr.............


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> Now I see the problem. Tektro and mechanical disk on mtb.
> 
> Either one of those are not great for mtb. Put them together and I'd rather stop with my feet.
> 
> ...


It may well be the brakes because those things truly only slow the bike down. There is no stopping power. My old GT will throw you over the bars and that is what I thought I was getting with my 29er. No big deal. Either way I don't want that stopping power on my road bike. Nor do I want new group riders having that stopping power. I can see a new guy mashing those now.


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## JasonC71 (May 3, 2015)

Holy crap. As the OP....err....went to Nashville for a couple of days with the wife....came back to 10 pages???

Good lord. I've got some catching up to do lol.

Thanks everyone for answering. Honestly. Sorry for stirring up a sheet storm.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

JasonC71 said:


> Good lord. I've got some catching up to do...


meh, you didn't miss much.

some people like disks, some don't. some are just disappointed that they will become an industry standard for no particularly good reason.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Oxtox said:


> meh, you didn't miss much.
> 
> some people like disks, some don't. some are just disappointed that they will become an industry standard for no particularly good reason.


my only hope that aero becomes so important it makes thoughts of going disc nuts and with the recent crop of aero bikes coming..(madone,venge).. it's looking better.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

ibericb said:


> The good news is, a subject has finally emerged (disc brakes on road bikes) that gets more clicks and discussion than the best chain lube.


Well, since you mentioned it, what is the best chain lube? I've been using Dumonde but recently switch to ProGold. I've been happier since the switch. Anything else out there that works well?


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

ziscwg said:


> I think only a few are actual poseurs. You know, the ones that buy the big $$$ bike and ride to the coffee shop to hang out. That is a poseur to me.


Why the labeling? Buying a nice bike and riding it to the coffee shop is a perfectly legitimate way to enjoy life through cycling. Geez.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Love Commander said:


> I'm sure this applies to the topic at hand on some level.


Mine (albeit only two) were what compelled me to get disc brakes.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I can see the need for disc brakes for some people. Many people are slow descenders and are on their brakes a lot, some ride in the rain, others descend steep terrain where they have to ride the brakes. I wouldn't get a bike with them, but they make more sense to me than carbon rims do.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The failure of our education system is demonstrated clearly in this thread. The notion that the biking industry will force disc brakes or any other innovation on the market is an example of being taught what to think instead of how to think.

I'm guessing that those who hold that view believe that the Hugh market for rim brakes will go unsatisfied? The superiority of friction shifting on the down tube is anther example of these bass turds forcing crap on the market? Hundreds of thousands will have no ability to buy a high end bike with rim brakes because of this massive conspiracy to piss off what currently appears to be about half of the market--those who know the real truth?

Will it be illegal for custom builders and small companies to market to this unfulfilled segment of truthers?

Or is it that this Hugh segment of the market will be brainwashed into believing in this inferior braking system and the truthers will become extinct?


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Anyone remember the late Jobst Brandt ranting against double pivot brakes? All anyone needed in his opinion was single pivots and stronger hands, like God intended...

The truth at we don't need more force is in the switch by Campy (at least) to "differential"--a recognition that some people couldn't be trusted with extra braking power--and bad luck for you if you were racing or pace-lining with them...

More modulation?--I'm intrigued, but unconvinced. If you have crap braking and bad modulation with rim brakes, check your equipment and your whole set-up...

I'm another geezer who has never had trouble with either on conventional rim brakes.

OTOH, I'd love to try the hydraulic disks, not least because for years my late father would wax poetic that this was what the biking community needed (while we rolled our eyes). He'd be delighted that they work, and I would be happy to try them out in his memory.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Trek_5200 said:


> Question for the disc fans.
> Are Disc brakes always superior to caliper and cantilever brakes or do the worst disc examples perform worse than the best of the caliper or cantilever(i threw in cantiliver because i know someone building a bike that is going in this direction). Seems I hear the term disc thrown without talking spec or producer, not always, but lots of times.


I think most with experience agree that at this point shimano hydro road discs are setting the standard that others will have to meet. And yes, where slowing down with precision is the objective, they are superior. For those who ride where slowing down is unnecessary, not so much.


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## Mergetrio (May 28, 2012)

To each his own. Why the fuss?

I ride both mountain and road bikes. My MB has disc brakes which I appreciate very much. Granted, I have 105 brakes on my Cannondale which needs upgrading as it takes a bit to stop and the modulation is not so great. As I was thinking to upgrade my brakes I came to the realization that disc brakes on road bikes were all the rage. Mind you, I've not shopped for bikes since I got mine in 2012. I tried out several bikes with disc brakes and I personally love it. It offers similar braking experience as on my MB.

Today, to change up my ride, I took out my MB and did a 35 mile ride on a course I do with my Cannondale. I immediately realized that disc brakes were working out far better than my 105 calipers on turns and descents.

Again, to each his own but my next road bike will have disc brakes. Di2s? Now, that I don't need.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Disc brake?


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

I can only hope that the guy I saw going down LCC here today with 2 whole kids in a burley type bike trailer had disc brakes. Salt Lake Cycling - Salt Lake area rides - Little Cottonwood Canyon. I was pretty horrified, in my head he did have an MTB. There is no way he would have done it with a road bike, right?


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Alfonsina said:


> I can only hope that the guy I saw going down LCC here today with 2 whole kids in a burley type bike trailer had disc brakes. Salt Lake Cycling - Salt Lake area rides - Little Cottonwood Canyon. I was pretty horrified, in my head he did have an MTB. There is no way he would have done it with a road bike, right?


I've done that (when the kids were little). Kids love that kind of shi'ite.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> Trek only makes a small percentage of their bikes in the U.S. these days. Their top end bikes, typically the high end Madone. The cost advantage is simply too much for the bean counters to ignore.


Not bean counters, consumers who vote with their wallet.


----------



## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

JasonC71 said:


> Hi...disclosure time...I am a long time mountan biker that has recently been bitten by the road bug. I am curious as to why there is so much push back towards disc brakes on road bikes.
> 
> I know that there are threads about the topic, but I was interested in a discussion about CURRENT tech, as well as tech that is coming within say the next year.
> 
> ...


I have discs on my MTB and love them. My road bike has Chorus 10 and the rim brakes work fine. We live by the mountains and I do many long climbs, steep descents. When I do the same descents on MTB I notice much less hand force is required. It's not so beneficial I would go buy a new road bike with discs immediately, but if I do get a new road bike eventually, I might well go with discs. Hopefully by then the price difference has come down as well.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

velodog said:


> The pros will use them because the sponsors will supply them, and then the fan boys will buy them because the pros use them.
> 
> Marketing


I think you have this right except exactly backwards. The manufacturers are having a hard time keeping up with the current demand for disc brakes. The invasion of mountain biking into the sport has brought with it people who actually know how brakes should work. Those who've been riding hydro disc mtb's are typically blown away with the piss poor braking that even the best rim brakes provide on steep winding descents.

As for those that believe that the current level of braking provided by rim brakes is sufficient, consider that while It is true that the experienced riders of the penny farthing had no trouble stopping and Experience drivers of the ford model A also had no trouble, neither should be used as the final metric for determining what constitutes precision braking


----------



## Corey213 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cyclocross bikes i feel they are necessary. Road bikes not unless you are riding in rain and and mountain bikes yes


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Corey213 said:


> Cyclocross bikes i feel they are necessary. Road bikes not unless you are riding in rain and and mountain bikes yes


I'm currently riding road bikes in the Dolomites which are famous for serious hair pin turns. There is no question that discs can charge in harder and brake later than rims. The outcome is clear as three of us with discs are riding with many others of equal or better riding cred entails and skill.

This debate will be clearly settled when discs are used against rims in major events. I think this is so clear to all pro teams that none will even bother to show with rims. A mature racing will follow and quickly eliminate the argument of being paid to ride discs. The exception will be flat stages where discs offer little advantage


----------



## Corey213 (Jan 11, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> I'm currently riding road bikes in the Dolomites which are famous for serious hair pin turns. There is no question that discs can charge in harder and brake later than rims. The outcome is clear as three of us with discs are riding with many others of equal or better riding cred entails and skill.
> 
> This debate will be clearly settled when discs are used against rims in major events. I think this is so clear to all pro teams that none will even bother to show with rims. A mature racing will follow and quickly eliminate the argument of being paid to ride discs. The exception will be flat stages where discs offer little advantage


Definitely. Time will tell


----------



## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> I'm currently riding road bikes in the Dolomites which are famous for serious hair pin turns. There is no question that discs can charge in harder and brake later than rims. The outcome is clear as three of us with discs are riding with many others of equal or better riding cred entails and skill.
> 
> This debate will be clearly settled when discs are used against rims in major events. I think this is so clear to all pro teams that none will even bother to show with rims. A mature racing will follow and quickly eliminate the argument of being paid to ride discs. The exception will be flat stages where discs offer little advantage


I am not sure that it matters what racers or pros do. In the end it will come down to personal preference and money. Are they better or not, is really a matter of preference. In that case, who cares, get what you want. Then it boils down to money. If they are better, and I am not saying they are, what is the price point that makes a difference? In other words, how much are you willing to pay for that difference. Is it the same between Ultegra and Dura Ace, where there is very little return for the big price difference. I personally would not pay for Dura Ace because of the law of diminishing return for me. 
I also would not pay for disc brakes because I do not see that paying that much more provides me with much of a return. I also live in Florida, where hills are not to be found. Thus, disc brakes hold no allure to me. I would rather upgrade something else on my bike or save the money completely. I suspect that most others are in this same boat for now but time will tell as you stated.


----------



## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

250 posts, mostly debating brakes on bikes people don't even own.

"obsessive behavior" defined.


----------



## sgtrobo (Aug 26, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> Those who've been riding hydro disc mtb's are typically blown away with the piss poor braking that even the best rim brakes provide on steep winding descents.


this is 100% me. I started off MTB and doing what I'll call non-competition "monstercross" riding. going from the Shimano XT hydros on my MTB to the BB7 mechanical discs on my Fargo 'monstercross' was painful enough. When I went into the market for road bikes, I tried several road bikes with rim brakes and was amazed at how tired my hands got trying to brake on moderate downhills. As it stands, I ended up getting a bike with Shimano 785 hydros, because I really really like being able to have complete control and modulation, regardless of the hill, by using only 1 finger on the brake despite my 250 lbs of heft and tiny 140mm ice tech rotors. I just like it. *shrugs*

I'm not an expert. I'm not saying rim brakes are worthless. I'm not saying that everyone should buy disc brakes. I will say that there can be no logical comparison for stopping power though because the hydros are obviously orders of magnitude better in that respect.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Tig said:


> 250 posts, mostly debating brakes on bikes people don't even own.
> 
> "obsessive behavior" defined.


Look,
I may not be a disk brake bike owner in real life, but I play one on the internet.


----------



## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

My next road bike will have disc brakes. In normal day-to-day riding they work better but especially on long, steep, and sharply winding at spots descents. (I just replaced my front pads yesterday after the type of descent I describe.)


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

sgtrobo said:


> this is 100% me. I started off MTB and doing what I'll call non-competition "monstercross" riding. going from the Shimano XT hydros on my MTB to the BB7 mechanical discs on my Fargo 'monstercross' was painful enough. When I went into the market for road bikes, I tried several road bikes with rim brakes and was amazed at how tired my hands got trying to brake on moderate downhills. As it stands, I ended up getting a bike with Shimano 785 hydros, because I really really like being able to have complete control and modulation, regardless of the hill, by using only 1 finger on the brake despite my 250 lbs of heft and tiny 140mm ice tech rotors. I just like it. *shrugs*
> 
> I'm not an expert. I'm not saying rim brakes are worthless. I'm not saying that everyone should buy disc brakes. I will say that there can be no logical comparison for stopping power though because the hydros are obviously orders of magnitude better in that respect.


Not to nit pick, but you went on about the modulation and one finger braking. To me those are the main selling points of disks for road.

So, did you feel the rim brakes did have enough stopping power. I have never had a problem stopping, the power was always there. It was the effort required and "feel" that I struggled with.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Tig said:


> 250 posts, mostly debating brakes on bikes people don't even own.
> 
> "obsessive behavior" defined.


That means none of us (you included) are ever allowed to have an opinion on ANYTHING you don't own or partake in.

Since I doubt you're a professional athelte, you're not allowed to have an opinion about that either. 

Your logic on this is stupid. Everyone is entitled to make their point with the evidence they have. If they've tried it and don't like it, that's their prerogative.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

ziscwg said:


> Not to nit pick, but you went on about the modulation and one finger braking. To me those are the main selling points of disks for road.
> 
> So, did you feel the rim brakes did have enough stopping power. I have never had a problem stopping, the power was always there. It was the effort required and "feel" that I struggled with.


Not to answer for him but I think predictability /consistency is the element that is primary. Our brains have a built in survival instinct that computes the probabilities and forces us to error on the side of survival. When brakes throb or often take a revolution or two to scrub dirt, dust, or moisture off the rim those factors are adjusted for and we automatically compensate. When those issues become insignificant, security of consistency and predictability builds confidence--allowing faster approaches, especially when other riders are making cutting the apex of a hair pin impossible. Certainly precision control plays a big role for the same reason.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

masont said:


> Not bean counters, consumers who vote with their wallet.


It's more like how much profit can I make by making the bikes in China and not pass the savings to the customer.


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## rmsmith (Feb 15, 2007)

ziscwg said:


> I think only a few are actual poseurs. You know, the ones that buy the big $$$ bike and ride to the coffee shop to hang out. That is a poseur to me.


Back on topic, i.e., disc brakes and stopping power.


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## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

I just returned last night from a ride camp in Mallorca, Spain. 18,000ft of climbing over four days with the corresponding amount of descending. I read this thread before I left for Mallorca so during my rides I pondered whether I could've used more stopping power to make my experiences more enjoyable/safer; the answer - for me - was, "No." Your results may vary.
Very respectfully, Tim Hunter


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

mrwirey said:


> I just returned last night from a ride camp in Mallorca, Spain. 18,000ft of climbing over four days with the corresponding amount of descending. I read this thread before I left for Mallorca so during my rides I pondered whether I could've used more stopping power to make my experiences more enjoyable/safer; the answer - for me - was, "No." Your results may vary.
> Very respectfully, Tim Hunter


You could have charged those corners faster and braked later. It's important to you.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> That means none of us (you included) are ever allowed to have an opinion on ANYTHING you don't own or partake in.
> 
> Your logic on this is stupid. Everyone is entitled to make their point with the evidence they have. If they've tried it and don't like it, that's their prerogative.


I'm sorry that placing a mirror anywhere near you got you so upset. I forget that not everyone enjoys reality or confronting our own weaknesses and shortcomings. A note of wisdom: _We never grow or improve when we stay in our warm comfort zone.

_


> Since I doubt you're a professional athelte, you're not allowed to have an opinion about that either.


Of course, only a professional "athelte" can have opinions. I'm glad you cleared that up for us. I was never close to becoming professional with just one state championship jersey, so I should sell my computers too. 



> Everyone is entitled to make their point with the evidence they have.


I see you missed the point about people debating over things they have no experience (evidence) of, huh, Sparky?

I _will _take note of my "logic being stupid". Geez, that was so funny I almost couldn't type it! You're a hoot and I'd love to hang out sometime over some bourbons...


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## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

*Not so much...*



MMsRepBike said:


> You could have charged those corners faster and braked later. It's important to you.


Important to me? Not so much. I'm the guy who gets too brave then falls off and at 55 years old; I don't have the healing powers I once did. Riding down to Sa Collabra (21 hairpins with an average 7% grade on a magnificently twisty road designed by an Italian) on a standard road bike (Trek Domane 5.9) was more than exciting enough for me. 

I think I charged the corners plenty fast enough, given my legs had already been softened up from climbing the 'Col de Soller' and the 'Puig Major' prior to this descent and with the knowledge I would be climbing back up this same (steep ass) road once I reached the ocean at the bottom. I braked as late as I deemed prudent to keep the adrenaline flowing and to retain the big grin on my face. In my extremely humble opinion, disc brakes would not have added to my cycling enjoyment. 

Very respectfully, Tim


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

mrwirey said:


> I just returned last night from a ride camp in Mallorca, Spain. 18,000ft of climbing over four days with the corresponding amount of descending. I read this thread before I left for Mallorca so during my rides I pondered whether I could've used more stopping power to make my experiences more enjoyable/safer; the answer - for me - was, "No." Your results may vary.
> Very respectfully, Tim Hunter


OK, no more power needed, but how about better brake control and ease of engagement?


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

rmsmith said:


> Back on topic, i.e., disc brakes and stopping power.


On topic? I keep seeing shiny..................

.........................

....things.



Comparing a touring bike and road race type bike is like comparing a Corvette and a Lexus GS350 sedan. Both are great, but one is comfort with a little sport. The other is almost all sport and less comfort. Sure you can do 100-200 miles or so on your road rig with support. However, pulling off a brevet would be harder for sure without a bike that can carry support with it.

Those touring bikes are a great candidate for disk brakes. They encounter all kinds of conditions that can be hard to predict. Weight is less of an issue, but reliability in many conditions is.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

mrwirey said:


> Important to me? Not so much. I'm the guy who gets too brave then falls off and at 55 years old; I don't have the healing powers I once did. Riding down to Sa Collabra (21 hairpins with an average 7% grade on a magnificently twisty road designed by an Italian) on a standard road bike (Trek Domane 5.9) was more than exciting enough for me.
> 
> I think I charged the corners plenty fast enough, given my legs had already been softened up from climbing the 'Col de Soller' and the 'Puig Major' prior to this descent and with the knowledge I would be climbing back up this same (steep ass) road once I reached the ocean at the bottom. I braked as late as I deemed prudent to keep the adrenaline flowing and to retain the big grin on my face. In my extremely humble opinion, disc brakes would not have added to my cycling enjoyment.
> 
> Very respectfully, Tim



If you had fun on your bike, that's all that matters. I actually don't like descents with tight hair pins. I like the S-turn type descents where I can maintain some speed and lean the bike.


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## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

ziscwg said:


> OK, no more power needed, but how about better brake control and ease of engagement?


I really have no need of more power and as far as control ... I have no issues with control. I guess if I was running inferior brakes or had gacked-up cables it might be an issue, but I don't. 

I imagine if my cycling goal was to stop as quickly as possible it would be advantageous; however, for me, I just need to reduce my speed enough to go around turns. I expend so much energy getting up to speed I really don’t like to slow down more than absolutely necessary. I just can't see myself ever wanting disc brakes on my road bikes, but I don’t ride in nasty weather unless forced to do so and most of my descending on roads with more than 10% grades is extremely limited.

Very respectfully, Tim


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> Comparing a touring bike and road race type bike is like comparing a Corvette and a Lexus GS350 sedan.


The Lexus driver has nice hair and dresses well, and the Corvette is driven by a balding older dude with gold chains. lol. I've seen it many times.


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## rmsmith (Feb 15, 2007)

> On topic? I keep seeing shiny...


Nothing wrong with a custom frame, dura-ace/xtr, avid-s downhill, chris king, thomson, brooks, garmin edge 1k w/24k topo, etc., which is supporting the "main-street" economy.

Maybe you should consider adding a vertical dimension to your outdoor sporting activities, soften that hard-on a bit?


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Notvintage said:


> The Lexus driver has nice hair and dresses well, and the Corvette is driven by a balding older dude with gold chains. lol. I've seen it many times.


both of which can beat your a$$ to the top of that 3200 ft climb because they have disk brakes...................


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

mrwirey said:


> In my extremely humble opinion, disc brakes would not have added to my cycling enjoyment.


Great posts on you braking experience and ride on that great challenge of 18,000 feet of ascents and descents. 

It sound like IMO that the main reason you favor rim brakes over disc brakes is that the rim brakes work just fine for you and meet all your subjective needs. If so that's the way it is for me also. Then there is the additional up front costs for getting disc brakes. (Way more than I want to pay. The price difference on new bike models that are only different in one has rim brakes and the other disc is insultingly high.)

What would be interesting though would be if someone of your experience and expertise would do that same ride or some other challenging descents that would allow you to compare performance difference of pad v disc. 

Happy riding!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mrwirey said:


> Important to me? Not so much. I'm the guy who gets too brave then falls off and at 55 years old; I don't have the healing powers I once did. Riding down to Sa Collabra (21 hairpins with an average 7% grade on a magnificently twisty road designed by an Italian) on a standard road bike (Trek Domane 5.9) was more than exciting enough for me.
> 
> I think I charged the corners plenty fast enough, given my legs had already been softened up from climbing the 'Col de Soller' and the 'Puig Major' prior to this descent and with the knowledge I would be climbing back up this same (steep ass) road once I reached the ocean at the bottom. I braked as late as I deemed prudent to keep the adrenaline flowing and to retain the big grin on my face. In my extremely humble opinion, disc brakes would not have added to my cycling enjoyment.
> 
> Very respectfully, Tim


But you won't ever know 'til you try them. I'm as skeptical as they come where 'new' technology is concerned. Until it's proven, I'll stick w/ 'tried and true'. 

But...

One ride w/ hydro discs was all it took for me. I've NEVER had any issues slowing down or stopping w/ whatever brakes are on my bike. That said, the Shimano hydro disc brakes were amazing. Needed upgrade? No. One that ANY rider can take advantage of if they want to? Absolutely. Power? Yes. Control? Yes. It's my opinion that pretty much anyone can have fun on pretty much any descent w/ nice disc brakes. You don't have to push any limits, you can just slow down w/ lots of modulation and very little effort, MUCH less effort than any cable actuated road caliper on this planet.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

every "disc brake" related thread on RBR eventually turns epic. Why is that?


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> every "disc brake" related thread on RBR eventually turns epic. Why is that?


I think they, those crazy mtb riders, have steeper grades and more weight. Am I calling them fat???? could be......

The "main" issue with many on mtb side is that too many were SRAM. The "dreaded turkey gobble" threads are epic because SRAM refused to abandon this stacked washer mounting design. The best fix for this gobble was to buy Shimano XT brakes.

I had to use an SRAM brake after a crash. I mounted it on a Formula adapter and never had an issue.

That SRAM taper bore piston issue was fun too. It just seemed like SRAM should not make brakes. 

There were far fewer Shimano brake problem threads. 

I also think the mtb community tends to "ask for help" more. You couple that with people like me who are not bike mechanics, but play one on the internet, and for all his friends, and you get a lot of epic threads.

I think with the integrated nature of the disk brakes from SRAM and Shimano, the threads will be fewer. I'm a big fan of the Shimano IceTech system. The bikes I have ridden with it were great to pull the lever on. I love demoing and renting bikes when I travel to places. I only plan to get bike with Shimano Icetech disk brakes on it. Even though I love the SRAM double tap, I'll give up my double tap for the Shimano disk setup.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

JasonC71 said:


> Holy crap. As the OP....err....went to Nashville for a couple of days with the wife....came back to 10 pages???
> Good lord. I've got some catching up to do lol.


You may have well started a 26 vs 29 thread on mtbr. 

I have a similar disc setup as you (XT, icetechs) and they are sweet. You won't get anything close to that with a rim brake on a road bike.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Kristatos said:


> You may have well started a 26 vs 29 thread on mtbr.
> 
> I have a similar disc setup as you (XT, icetechs) and they are sweet. You won't get anything close to that with a rim brake on a road bike.


OMG, 29er do not maneuver around nearly as well as 26er. It's not even close. You put the wheel flex and weight in there too and you may as well hook them to a chain and toss them off the side of a ship.


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## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

GlobalGuy,


GlobalGuy said:


> It sound like IMO that the main reason you favor rim brakes over disc brakes is that the rim brakes work just fine for you and meet all your subjective needs.


Very true. I've never felt modern caliper brakes (Shimano, SRAM, or Campagnolo) lacked in sufficient stopping power or modulation for my cycling needs. Of course I'm by no means a pro-caliber rider and I have no unrealistic aspirations, misperceptions, or delusions of my cycling abilities. 

That said, I would not be surprised to learn disc brakes do have more power and better modulation than even my best caliper brakes as I have them on my 29er mountain bike; I just don't think it would be a game-changing event for me on the road and I don't think the pros would outway the cons ... well my cons anyway. Let me try to explain.

I've ridden with lots of new technologies over the years, clipless pedals, indexed shifting, integrated shifters, Di2, GPS systems, wide rims, tubeless road tires etc. I have adopted many of them, but I've not always found every new technoligy to be better in application than what I was using preveiously. Many of them I just found to be different and for me unnecessary.

The technologies I am most likely to refuse are those, which limit my ability to 'tinker' regardless of how much better they are than the technology they would replace. (I am the consumate tinkerer.) Di2 is a prime example. You adjust it and it shifts the same every time; it's much like a precision timepiece. That said, I found an annoying clunk when downshifting certain gears I was never able to adjust out of the system. I like being able to fiddle with cable adjustment when riding to get the shifting just so and avoid the clunks and I missed that flexibility. Additionally, the Di2 shifter buttons felt vague when using full fingered gloves. These are my admitted quirks, yes, but no matter where I go there I am. Nothing against Di2 from a performance perspecitive, but it just didn't work for me. I went back to mechanical systems. No harm; no foul. 

I do not know if disc road brakes would fall into the technology fail category for me due to my quirkiness, but I really have no need or desire to find out. I enjoy the adjustability of caliper brakes and I am quite satisfied with their performance (power & modulation) ... again, for my limited, semi-old-guy, road riding applications.

Very respectfully, Tim

P.S. You wouldn't happen to know Stuart Carter would you? He is a retired AF COL who established the AF participation in RAGBRAI 21 years ago. He is a friend of mine.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Tig said:


> I'm sorry that placing a mirror anywhere near you got you so upset. I forget that not everyone enjoys reality or confronting our own weaknesses and shortcomings. A note of wisdom: _We never grow or improve when we stay in our warm comfort zone.
> 
> _
> 
> ...


So you can debate politics with no experience in them?

Fascinating. You're a contradiction in terms. And gullible too if someone's selling you disc brakes on your road bike. Or drunk. You did mention bourbon...


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> So you can debate politics with no experience in them?
> 
> Fascinating. You're a contradiction in terms. And gullible too if someone's selling you disc brakes on your road bike. Or drunk. You did mention bourbon...


politics has never been about experience or knowing what is going on. We elected Obama didn't we??


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ziscwg said:


> politics has never been about experience or knowing what is going on. We elected Obama didn't we??


You do have a point there....


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> politics has never been about experience or knowing what is going on. We elected Obama didn't we??



Twice, yes, the guy that lectured constitutional law basically. We also elected the dufus.. er...genius from Texas who's main attribute was his puppet strings. Not that Obama doesn't have those, but at least he can think for himself... 

Example being: "Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a -- you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." --Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004

Another; "I would say the best moment of all was when I caught a 7.5 pound largemouth bass in my lake." When asked what his best moment in office was, interview with the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag.

So give the non political thread a freaking break..

And/or feel free to rebut the quote in the politics forum.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

ziscwg said:


> OMG, 29er do not maneuver around nearly as well as 26er. It's not even close. You put the wheel flex and weight in there too and you may as well hook them to a chain and toss them off the side of a ship.




How tall are you?


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> OMG, 29er do not maneuver around nearly as well as 26er. It's not even close. You put the wheel flex and weight in there too and you may as well hook them to a chain and toss them off the side of a ship.





Donn12 said:


> How tall are you?


It is true that a 29er isn't as maneuverable as a 29er, they have their drawbacks and disadvantages. 27.5 seems to be a happy medium.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Donn12 said:


> How tall are you?


4 ft 11 in


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

tednugent said:


> It is true that a 29er isn't as maneuverable as a 29er, they have their drawbacks and disadvantages. 27.5 seems to be a happy medium.


So, the 650b 27.5 does nothing well???


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> So you can debate politics with no experience in them?
> 
> Fascinating. You're a contradiction in terms. And gullible too if someone's selling you disc brakes on your road bike. Or drunk. You did mention bourbon...


Don't let them rile you. They're the same idiots that think the earth is round. Eventually they'll all fall off the edge


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Don't let them rile you. They're the same idiots that think the earth is round. Eventually they'll all fall off the edge



Not with discs, they will stop just in time...


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## nigel91 (May 16, 2012)

Disc brake question:

As the disc is mounted on the wheel which you have to accelerate up to speed, plus any additional weight to make the wheel strong enough that the braking forces can happen in the centre, does this make the wheel feel slower to spin up than an equivalent rim brake setup?

I find Ultegra 6700 rim brakes with Shimano C35 wheels (metal brake tracks)good enough descending in the dry, and a little scary when it's really wet but I wouldn't swap slightly better wet braking for extra weight and wheels that feel like they accelerate sluggishly.

Anyone who has ridden similar setups on disc & rim braked bikes care to comment?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

nigel91 said:


> Disc brake question:
> 
> As the disc is mounted on the wheel which you have to accelerate up to speed, plus any additional weight to make the wheel strong enough that the braking forces can happen in the centre, does this make the wheel feel slower to spin up than an equivalent rim brake setup?
> 
> ...


Google: Moment of Inertia. 

No, you don't even notice they're there. 






They're there...see what I did there?


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> So you can debate politics with no experience in them?
> 
> Fascinating. You're a contradiction in terms. And gullible too if someone's selling you disc brakes on your road bike. Or drunk. You did mention bourbon...


I do hate to see a grown man cry. Dry your tears, little man. 

Don't forget that you asked for this when you got personal in your attack. It is like pulling a knife on someone yet you are the only one that gets cut.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> Don't let them rile you. They're the same idiots that think the earth is round. Eventually they'll all fall off the edge


Now, now... Don't be mean to the short bus kids. They can't help it. :smilewinkgrin:


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

ziscwg said:


> So, the 650b 27.5 does nothing well???


If you put hydro disc brakes on one it will be way better than any POS with cable brakes


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i have been riding bb7s on my road/cross/gravel bike for over 5 years now. aside from ease of setup/use, i like the fact i can have a pretty untrue wheel and not worry about brake rub. for instance, i hit dirt pothole pretty hard and my rear rim had a pretty big wobble. with rim brakes i would have been rubbing the entire way home, even with the brake fully open.

my issue is changing standards, especially with mounting...


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## shoemakerpom2010 (Apr 25, 2011)

I think when they do become excepted in the road world the road wheel will be redesigned across the board from all the major manufactures to take advantages of the strength gained from not having to worry about rim heat. It will change the brake industry the same way the first V-brake did 20 or so years ago because the same arguments were made then against cantilevers......In fact the car industry changed completely with the disc brake.....


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

shoemakerpom2010 said:


> I think when they do become *excepted* in the road world the road wheel will be redesigned across the board from all the major manufactures to take advantages of the strength gained from not having to worry about rim heat. It will change the brake industry the same way the first V-brake did 20 or so years ago because the same arguments were made then against cantilevers......In fact the car industry changed completely with the disc brake.....


What? And your last sentence...I get your idea but that's pretty wacky.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

shoemakerpom2010 said:


> I think when they do become excepted in the road world the road wheel will be redesigned across the board from all the major manufactures to take advantages of the strength gained from not having to worry about rim heat. It will change the brake industry the same way the first V-brake did 20 or so years ago because the same arguments were made then against cantilevers......In fact the car industry changed completely with the disc brake.....





cxwrench said:


> What? And your last sentence...I get your idea but that's pretty wacky.


COOL!!!! Antilock brakes on my road bike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh no.

I think there will be some moderate design changes, but they are not going to reinvent the wheel.

At first glance, the first thing I see on disk wheels is saying bye bye to radial front lacing.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

shoemakerpom2010 said:


> I think when they do become excepted in the road world the road wheel will be redesigned across the board from all the major manufactures to take advantages of the strength gained from not having to worry about rim heat. It will change the brake industry the same way the first V-brake did 20 or so years ago because the same arguments were made then against cantilevers......In fact the car industry changed completely with the disc brake.....


like MTB rims?

Heck, with clinches, Specialized has already gone a step further with their carbon rims without a bead hook.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

shoemakerpom2010 said:


> I think when they do become excepted in the road world the road wheel will be redesigned across the board from all the major manufactures to take advantages of the strength gained from not having to worry about rim heat. It will change the brake industry the same way the first V-brake did 20 or so years ago because the same arguments were made then against cantilevers......In fact the car industry changed completely with the disc brake.....





tednugent said:


> like MTB rims?
> 
> Heck, with clinches, Specialized has already gone a step further with their carbon rims without a bead hook.


Well, Spec was not the first to introduce it, but they were the first to put in their mass produced product. Then again, Spec has always had this little thing for tubeless. Their 2bliss designation for tubeless ready tire was on most of their tires since 2006. UST was barely a blip in the market then. Spec was already 1 step beyond UST with their version of "tubeless ready". 

I ran Spec tires for a number of yrs for this reason. Everyone else had something UST, but I hated the weight. I was not going anywhere near a Stans conversion. That just seemed like a crazy variable.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

It's been awhile since we have seen boobies, so..........

I love kissing boobies


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

I also love the way boobies move when the female dances.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Just saw some SRAM s-700 disk brake levers/shifters that were 10 speed.

It appears to be trickling down fast.


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## jtbraun (Sep 20, 2002)

Got caught in the rain this afternoon. Super Record calipers. As I was waiting for the pads to grab, I started thinking about disc brakes.


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## Shegens (Sep 14, 2013)

jtbraun said:


> Got caught in the rain this afternoon. Super Record calipers. As I was waiting for the pads to grab, I started thinking about disc brakes.


I have one bike with disc brakes and one without. I'll take disc brakes any day. If I'm just riding the road in dry weather I can't tell much difference and the road bike is fine. I often take the MTB along a creek that tends to run over the road but made the mistake of taking the road bike once. The disc brakes will stop me and I found out that the caliper brakes with pads won't. No brainer as far as I'm concerned. Any bike I have from now on will have disc brakes.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

jtbraun said:


> Got caught in the rain this afternoon. Super Record calipers. As I was waiting for the pads to grab, I started thinking about disc brakes.


Luckily you made it home in one piece. I guess you still have time to think about those disc brakes.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

jtbraun said:


> Got caught in the rain this afternoon. Super Record calipers. As I was waiting for the pads to grab, I started thinking about disc brakes.





velodog said:


> Luckily you made it home in one piece. I guess you still have time to think about those disc brakes.


I'm sure a bit of exaggeration, but it can seem like forever when you pull the brake and nothing happens right away.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I remember a long time when bikes had chrome plated steel rims, forget about stopping those in the rain.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

jnbrown said:


> I remember a long time when bikes had chrome plated steel rims, forget about stopping those in the rain.


Steel rims and disc brakes for all the non weight weanies.


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

velodog said:


> Steel rims and disc brakes for all the non weight weanies.


Yeah, if you're going to be racing, and you're worried about weight, then go for rim brakes. 

If you're doing endurance (or any off-road training), and you want to be able to stop in any weather condition, get disc brakes. 

GH


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

ColaJacket said:


> Yeah, if you're going to be racing, and you're worried about weight, then go for rim brakes.


If you're racing, you're usually not too worried about brakes. Sure, on *some* descents, you need to grab a handful, but so many of the races I've done, I never so much as touch the brakes.


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## xml-2277 (Dec 31, 2014)

Didn't someone recently request an old fogey forum? Did this happen already and I missed it?!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

xml-2277 said:


> Didn't someone recently request an old fogey forum? Did this happen already and I missed it?!


thinking about it, those guys over 30 are over the hill and should have their own place to scream "get off my lawn!!!!!!!"


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

ziscwg said:


> thinking about it, those guys over 30 are over the hill and should have their own place to scream "get off my lawn!!!!!!!"


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

The guys over 30 are the only ones with enough money to buy really great gear.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Alfonsina said:


> The guys over 30 are the only ones with enough money to buy really great gear.


or the under 30 guys that work at shops and get it cheap.


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

ziscwg said:


> COOL!!!! Antilock brakes on my road bike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh no.
> 
> ...


Computer controlled anti-lock brakes isn't all that crazy. 

I also fish. Most bait casters typically use magnets and other mechanical devices to slow down the spool to prevent over-runs (aka "bird nests") 

The same Shimano that makes bike equipment makes a baitcaster with digital control…a computer powered on the cast calculates the optimal point to slow down the bait, and apply braking, as you thumb the spool gently to land it.

I finally broke down and bought one, but I have yet to get out and test it.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Interesting article on Velo. Of course the Bike companies are pushing UCI on disc since there's a lot of cyclists who just want to ride what the pros ride. Interestingly the pros are not lobbying for approval, and they mention safety concerns in the event of an accident.

Gilbert unconvinced that disc brakes belong in road racing - VeloNews.com

Gilbert also pointed out concerns among many that the disc presents a real and present danger in the bunch, especially in the case of massive pileups and high-speed mash-ups that are part and parcel of road racing.
“If you land on a disc brake, it’s warm, it can open you up. If you get it on a vein … boof,” Gilbert said. “I am worried about the security. It’s not the same as a chain ring. I would be more scared about a disc brake.”


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> Interesting article on Velo. Of course the Bike companies are pushing UCI on disc since there's a lot of cyclists who just want to ride what the pros ride. Interestingly the pros are not lobbying for approval, and they mention safety concerns in the event of an accident.
> 
> Gilbert unconvinced that disc brakes belong in road racing - VeloNews.com
> 
> ...


We need to start a new thread entitled "Why do pros hate disc brakes?". If the UCI doesn't allow them it will interesting to see how that impacts sales


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

gave me a good laugh. thank you


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

Trek_5200 said:


> “If you land on a disc brake it can open you up. If you get it on a vein … boof”


My front disc has a sharp edge but the rear doesn't. It wouldn't take a minute to file the edge enough to dull it so I don't think this part of the argument is valid.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Randy99CL said:


> My front disc has a sharp edge but the rear doesn't. It wouldn't take a minute to file the edge enough to dull it so I don't think this part of the argument is valid.


They can require rounded edge rotors. The reason they are so sharp is because that is how they are stamped out. Taking an extra step is more cost. 

If UCI is ok with them, they can require any disk brake use approved rotors. 

I don't the the bike mfgs have paid the UCI enough bribe uhhh, evaluation money yet.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> Interesting article on Velo. Of course the Bike companies are pushing UCI on disc since there's a lot of cyclists who just want to ride what the pros ride. Interestingly the pros are not lobbying for approval, and they mention safety concerns in the event of an accident.
> 
> Gilbert unconvinced that disc brakes belong in road racing - VeloNews.com
> 
> ...


Just glanced at that but the president of the UCI says disk brakes stop you better. So much for the opponents that say they stop you the same.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

After seeing our guide seriously slice his hand on a Patagonia trip, I have been spending the 2 minutes required to radius the edges of my discs. There is no loss of performance and the UCI could do us all a favor by requiring all discs used in their races to meet a minimum radius requirement. And no, they will not require rework during a normal lifespan.



Trek_5200 said:


> Interesting article on Velo. Of course the Bike companies are pushing UCI on disc since there's a lot of cyclists who just want to ride what the pros ride. Interestingly the pros are not lobbying for approval, and they mention safety concerns in the event of an accident.
> 
> Gilbert unconvinced that disc brakes belong in road racing - VeloNews.com
> 
> ...


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

In thinking this over, the move to disc brakes in the peletons is perhaps not at all about safety , but in seeing faster downhill times which are good for ratings. Any safety improvement would be more than offset by an increase in the speed of cyclists descending. UCI approval of disc brakes may have the opposite effect of what most assume, which is safer rides. I'm thinking there's just too much money at stake, from ratings and from bike companies eager to sell more disc product to an audience eager to emulate the pros.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

That ship has sailed. At this point the market is doing a hell of a job driving the road disc movement. The pros are now reduced to emulating the market or being seen as clinging to antiquated technology.


Trek_5200 said:


> In thinking this over, the move to disc brakes in the peletons is perhaps not at all about safety , but in seeing faster downhill times which are good for ratings. Any safety improvement would be more than offset by an increase in the speed of cyclists descending. UCI approval of disc brakes may have the opposite effect of what most assume, which is safer rides. I'm thinking there's just too much money at stake, from ratings and from bike companies eager to sell more disc product to an audience eager to emulate the pros.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> That ship has sailed. At this point the market is doing a hell of a job driving the road disc movement. The pros are now reduced to emulating the market or being seen as clinging to antiquated technology.


perhaps, but some serious accidents could alter that. If disc brakes mean cyclists descending at speeds in excess of 70 mph I'm not sure how that's safer.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> I don't the the bike mfgs have paid the UCI enough bribe uhhh, evaluation money yet.


What do you think this is, FIFA?


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

Hmm, I've been doing quite a bit of rain riding myself. Not that I've intended to, just worked out that way. I've got DA 7800 w/Kool Stop Salmon pads and I don't seem to have problem. Maybe someone can explain what I'm doing wrong? Yeah I have to adjust my braking and I don't stop as well as in the dry but I can still be fair aggressive on the brakes.

Anyways, isn't about time for another compact vs standard discussion or Di2 vs mechanical shifting?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

exracer said:


> Hmm, I've been doing quite a bit of rain riding myself. Not that I've intended to, just worked out that way. I've got DA 7800 w/Kool Stop Salmon pads and I don't seem to have problem. Maybe someone can explain what I'm doing wrong? Yeah I have to adjust my braking and I don't stop as well as in the dry but I can still be fair aggressive on the brakes.
> 
> 
> Anyways, isn't about time for another compact vs standard discussion or Di2 vs mechanical shifting?


Nothing. Not to say that Disc Brakes don't work, but Caliper brakes have really improved over the years. The Caliper brakes being put out today by Shimano are light years ahead of what was available back in the 1970's/1980's.


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## Rogus (Nov 10, 2010)

exracer said:


> Anyways, isn't about time for another compact vs standard discussion or Di2 vs mechanical shifting?


I have disc brakes, Di2 and a compact on my bike. Bikes without that combination are dangerous and should be replaced immediately. You're welcome.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

I think the biggest lesson we learn in these disc threads is that people are VERY passionate about their opinions. 



ColaJacket said:


> Yeah, if you're going to be racing, and you're worried about weight, then go for rim brakes.
> If you're doing endurance (or any off-road training), and you want to be able to stop in any weather condition, get disc brakes.
> GH


I'd say you're close- if you're going to be racing or live in a flat area or somewhere blessed w/ massive amounts of sunshine, rim brakes offer more than you will ever need.
If you're doing gravel rides, endurance rides, touring, ride often in wet weather, commuting, then I think disc brakes have more to offer.
Is there a tradeoff? Absolutely! If you're road racing, you'd be crazy to run discs, due to weight, safety and wheel changes. 

I've got TRP Hy/Rd's on my Ti-Rove and like them a lot. I am really looking forward to my new CX bike w/ Di2 and full hydro disc brakes in the next month or so. 
Disclaimer: I live in Seattle, where it pisses rain like 9 months out of the year. If I lived in Cali, I'd have rim brakes.
I've used 5 different bikes to commute with over the last 3 years. In the crappy weather, the Rove w/ the discs was by far the most confidence-inspiring to ride.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

Because in a road race a bike flying through the air with disc brakes seems a lot scarier than a bike without disc brakes flying through the air. 

Vuelta d' Acadiana cat 5 crash this past weekend. Wait until about 8:00 minutes. 


https://youtu.be/flOxeZvp8e4?t=7m53s


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

DaveG said:


> What do you think this is, FIFA?


Yeah..................

It may not be exactly the same, but really how clean do you think it really is? You have FIFA and the Olympic committees. Do you really think the UCI is that squeaky and clean???


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

exracer said:


> Hmm, I've been doing quite a bit of rain riding myself. Not that I've intended to, just worked out that way. I've got DA 7800 w/Kool Stop Salmon pads and I don't seem to have problem. Maybe someone can explain what I'm doing wrong?* Yeah I have to adjust my braking and I don't stop as well as in the dry* but I can still be fair aggressive on the brakes.
> 
> Anyways, isn't about time for another compact vs standard discussion or Di2 vs mechanical shifting?


You kind of answered your own question there. 

There's little difference in stopping in the wet vs dry with disks is regards to the power once the pads contact the rotor. 

You still have to worry about traction no matter what brake system you have.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Rogus said:


> I have disc brakes, Di2 and a compact on my bike. Bikes without that combination are dangerous and should be replaced immediately. You're welcome.


Wasn't that a campaign promise from Obama in 2102???


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

Dude - ziscwg - I hope you realize about half of the posts on this thread are yours. Let it go. The horse is dead. You like discs. Cool. Not everyone else does. Also cool. Done.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

On a serious note here...

Who's going to be the first with carbon ceramic rotors?

Some bikes carry the logos of super cars, it's only fitting they'd have the proper rotor material. Plus of course, more carbon is moar bettah. There's carbon fiber automobile wheels and just about everything else. I don't see why carbon ceramic brakes won't show up. Maybe the rotors are too thin? If discs are going to go on all of the super bikes they'll need something fancier than ice tech.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> Who's going to be the first with carbon ceramic rotors?


Kettle has been making them for a couple of years, but had problems and don't seem to be in production right now. Or their website is broken.
SiCCC – SFL – Bicycle Brake Rotors


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

Bicycles being bicycles don't stop well regardless of brake types. 

My next bike will have disc brakes solely based upon several steep twisting descents I ride at times and on those same descents where sections are steep and straight but also are extremely rough road so I really have to keep your speed down. 

All other situations conventional rim brakes are satisfactory for me.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Corenfa said:


> Dude - ziscwg - I hope you realize about half of the posts on this thread are yours. Let it go. The horse is dead. You like discs. Cool. Not everyone else does. Also cool. Done.


No, I have a mission to have this thread active until all bike everywhere have disc brakes on them...............!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Randy99CL said:


> Kettle has been making them for a couple of years, but had problems and don't seem to be in production right now. Or their website is broken.
> SiCCC – SFL – Bicycle Brake Rotors


Yeah, those guys tried their butts off to make those work. Great idea, but they just did not work right or consistently. I think Shimano has the be best disc set up now with it's two outer layers sandwiching an Al layer (IceTech)


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

GlobalGuy said:


> Bicycles being bicycles don't stop well regardless of brake types.
> 
> My next bike will have disc brakes solely based upon several steep twisting descents I ride at times and on same descents the parts are steep and straight are also extremely rough road so I really have to keep your speed down.
> 
> All other situations conventional rim brakes are satisfactory for me.


Wait, you are not getting discs because I posted here promoting discs 4,000,000 times??


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> Wait, you are not getting discs because I posted here promoting discs 4,000,000 times??


You're slacking. 4 & that many zeros not eunf...


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## Rogus (Nov 10, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> Wasn't that a campaign promise from Obama in 2102???


No, NO, NOOOOOO!! Don't tell me Obama is going to be running for president in "2102"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> Wasn't that a campaign promise from Obama in 2102???





Rogus said:


> No, NO, NOOOOOO!! Don't tell me Obama is going to be running for president in "2102"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah, he's a young guy
If he rides his bike with disc brakes, he'll be able to live that long. Long live disc brakes and King Obama!!!!


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

I love disc brakes ... like the look and feel of it ... smooth and razor sharp at the same time ... :8:

But do I regret building my road bike with rim brakes in 2009? Noooo! Back then, there was not much in terms of offering ... I am not a cable guy.

If I am building a road bike now, I will go with hydraulic disc brakes. It is a personal preference ... just like colour


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> I love disc brakes ... like the look and feel of it ... smooth and razor sharp at the same time ... :8:
> 
> But do I regret building my road bike with rim brakes in 2009? Noooo! Back then, there was not much in terms of offering ... I am not a cable guy.
> 
> If I am building a road bike now, I will go with hydraulic disc brakes. It is a personal preference ... just like colour


grab your dremel and the bit below and break those sharp disc edges. I think it takes me a whole 5 minutes to do one.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

A fun look at misnomers plus real world pro's and con's.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tig said:


> A fun look at misnomers plus real world pro's and con's.


I had seen that. I loved the chorizo "test". 
I was hoping they'd hit the rotor and caliper with an infrared thermometer. I'd like to know how hot it actually was. 

I've got a new di2 hydraulic disc group set sitting at home waiting to be built. Glad to know I won't burn my wiener off. Just gotta keep it out of the spokes.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

I have been putting in a fair amount of miles on my Giant TCX with the Shimano hydro disc brakes, so far I love it. Once I got them broke in I can honestly say they are awesome.

I ride this bike as my crappy weather bike instead of getting my Giant Propel Advanced out. The Propel has Di2 and carbon wheels, they do OK in the rain but the disc brakes on the TCX are just a night and day difference in the wet.

Given that I just built the Propel up last year it will be at least 3 more years unless something happens before I build again, when that times comes I am betting disc will be on every road bike out. So I am pretty sure the next built will stay with carbon frame, carbon wheels w/ disc brakes and which ever electronic shifting there is at the time.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I use a file. it takes about 30 seconds per side in a truing stand. I think the manufacturers will soon be required to deal with this so we won't have to.


ziscwg said:


> grab your dremel and the bit below and break those sharp disc edges. I think it takes me a whole 5 minutes to do one.
> 
> View attachment 307652


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> I use a file. it takes about 30 seconds per side in a truing stand. I think the manufacturers will soon be required to deal with this so we won't have to.


If we can just get one mfg that brags about "safely rounded rotor edges" they'd all start doing it.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Tig said:


> A fun look at misnomers plus real world pro's and con's.


Not a very informative video. Nice scenery though. I'd like to see a timed event where a pro descends with discs and with rim brakes. Didn't see in the video that discs made any difference in descending times, because they both rode together. 500g is a lot of weight when comparing a disc vs. an equivalent rim brake bike, although pros often have to add weight to get their bike up to the minimum weight. However, I would not want to add 500g to my bike.


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## motolombardo (Jul 16, 2007)

I have a TCX advanced Pro 1 that for now is my primary road bike. On the first ride I had instant buyers remorse- I stopped no less than 5 times in 20 miles to try to cure a minor rub that was driving me up a wall. Long story short, they are sorted now and i am pleased but not blown away. better than road calipers as far as stopping power is concerned (and you can scrub small amounts of speed in a paceline, i was worried about that too) but for primary road duties I don't see a huge benefit over rim calipers. I suppose it depends on what you are doing- riding in the wet or racing cross a lot? Sure the discs are better.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Regardless of the merits, Once UCI approves we'll see standardization and an explosion in new sales and demand with Shimano getting the lion share of business, so in that regard there's no hate here. I own a few shares.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> Not a very informative video. Nice scenery though. I'd like to see a timed event where a pro descends with discs and with rim brakes. Didn't see in the video that discs made any difference in descending times, because they both rode together. 500g is a lot of weight when comparing a disc vs. an equivalent rim brake bike, although *pros often have to add weight to get their bike up to the minimum weight*. However, I would not want to add 500g to my bike.


the UCI is about to rescind this mininum weigth rule. Well be interesting to see


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> the UCI is about to rescind this mininum weigth rule. Well be interesting to see


Rescind it altogether or lower it?


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## HEMIjer (Oct 18, 2008)

Corenfa said:


> Totally agree.
> Notice how, for the past 2 years, you've seen pros moving more and more towards electronic shifting, now this year, you're seeing more and more pros who are running mechanical setups? Even some of the big name guys. Solutions looking for problems typically don't stick around long. Hopefully that's the case here.
> 
> Oh, and for those who think that it's the supreme solution for a LONG descent, just wait until your disc super heats from that and starts melting pads or god forbid, hubs that are close by.


Seriously you cannot believe that will really happen right, I could care less what others ride I like my disc brakes especially in the mtns and on dirt roads. but heat buildup and shedding is not a con to disc brakes, don't touch them when hot but they wont melt anything, if you brake too much with the rear you might smell some burning but if you brake correctly and are not afraid to use the front brake this is just ridiculous.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> the UCI is about to rescind this mininum weigth rule. Well be interesting to see


If so, that will probably kill disc brakes for pro racing. Who would want to add 500g to their bike?


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

mfdemicco said:


> If so, that will probably kill disc brakes for pro racing. Who would want to add 500g to their bike?



Off topic novice question; why is there a weight requirement anyway?

I googled and found a ton of other UCI rules in wiki that explained the effectively prevented recumbents since 1934. I get that.

I figured all the other dimension requirements essentially define what "bike" is and looks like. However, if you can make one looks like that, but with lighter components, why wouldn't you?


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

MaxKatt said:


> Off topic novice question; why is there a weight requirement anyway?


Some bikes were built that were quite unsafe. The weight requirement helps keep the sport on a level playing field so you don't have a few guys risking their health with unsafe bikes and others feeling like those guys have an unfair advantage. Basically without a weight limit it was a race to the bottom. Tyler Hamilton crashed once because his rear wheel was modified to remove some of the freewheel pawls. Guys will go to the edge to get a *perceived* advantage. 



MaxKatt said:


> However, if you can make one looks like that, but with lighter components, why wouldn't you?


Because safety and ride quality. Really outside of the perceived advantage you don't really get much faster with ultralight stuff. People chase weight savings in grams but really unless you are talking about several pounds it will not make much difference. Also, often stupid light stuff does not ride well with flex or waste of energy from undersized bearings or poor power transfer (i.e. pedals with small platforms don't work well). Chainrings and shifting components that flex can shift poorly. Sometimes lighter is not really better.


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

farnsworth said:


> Some bikes were built that were quite unsafe. The weight requirement helps keep the sport on a level playing field so you don't have a few guys risking their health with unsafe bikes and others feeling like those guys have an unfair advantage. Basically without a weight limit it was a race to the bottom. Tyler Hamilton crashed once because his rear wheel was modified to remove some of the freewheel pawls. Guys will go to the edge to get a *perceived* advantage.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply. Makes sense.
> ...


----------



## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

farnsworth said:


> Because safety and ride quality. Really outside of the perceived advantage you don't really get much faster with ultralight stuff. People chase weight savings in grams but really unless you are talking about several pounds it will not make much difference. Also, often stupid light stuff does not ride well with flex or waste of energy from undersized bearings or poor power transfer (i.e. pedals with small platforms don't work well). Chainrings and shifting components that flex can shift poorly. Sometimes lighter is not really better.


I think there are some gross over-simplifications here. 

First, just because a bike is lighter, doesn't mean it rides worse or flexes more. In fact, some of the ultra-light bikes I've ridden are some of the stiffest bikes I've ever felt. Bianchi Oltre for example. I've ridden a 13lb specimen of this bike and it was every bit as stiff as any other bike I've ridden.

The same goes for ride quality too. Ride quality can be dependent upon material choice, but it often involves more - like placement and shape of tubes, thickness or lack thereof of specific sections of tube, rake angle, heat tube height, and much more. 

As for weight savings not providing a real advantage - I'd say you haven't done that many long grade hills - like 10 miles with a 6% grade. 1 pound can make a HUGE difference in that distance. Even more modest climbs, you'll see gains. 

As for safety...again, more to it than just weight. In a recent crit crash, I went down with my bike (15.5 lbs) and a friend went down on their mid-range Boardman (18 lbs). His snapped clean in half, mine suffered no more than a scuffed bar tape. Our falls and speeds were quite similar. 

Lumping "light" bikes into a category that means uncomfortable, unsafe, and prone to break is just largely incorrect.


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

Corenfa said:


> Lumping "light" bikes into a category that means uncomfortable, unsafe, and prone to break is just largely incorrect.


I was responding to the reason the rule exists. Yes, some light bikes can be strong and some heavy bikes can be made poorly. That said, I think it is a good rule because high end race equipment is already plenty expensive. Part of the reason I think cycling today is less competitive in the US vs. the 80s and 90s is because the sport appears to be so expensive. The result of a smaller pool of athletes is a little sad.

Cheap, Lite, Durable.... pick two.

Back to disk brakes; one aspect is that without a brake track rims are potentially lighter so even if the overall weight is higher the rotational weight can be reduced.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Perhaps if they lower it to 12 lbs it will be close. Try to remember that 500 grams is 2/3rds of a water bottle. 

You will answer your own question when you race some of your friends down a steep and twisting mountain pass with hydro discs. Rent a bike with shimano hydro discs for a couple of days in the mountains and get back to us.


mfdemicco said:


> If so, that will probably kill disc brakes for pro racing. Who would want to add 500g to their bike?


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Corenfa said:


> As for weight savings not providing a real advantage - I'd say you haven't done that many long grade hills - like 10 miles with a 6% grade. 1 pound can make a HUGE difference in that distance. Even more modest climbs, you'll see gains. .


On a 10.1 mile 6% climb a 175lb rider on a 14.7 lb bike can get to the top in 1:28:47 if the road is smooth, he is alone, there is no wind, and he can produce 253 watts. It will take him 27 seconds longer if he adds a pound to his bike and everything else remains the same.

Would you like me to do the downhill?


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

MaxKatt said:


> Off topic novice question; why is there a weight requirement anyway?
> 
> I googled and found a ton of other UCI rules in wiki that explained the effectively prevented recumbents since 1934. I get that.
> 
> I figured all the other dimension requirements essentially define what "bike" is and looks like. However, if you can make one looks like that, but with lighter components, why wouldn't you?


Probably because they don't want an arms race in making the lightest bike. They want racing to be a contest between athletes, not a technology contest or a monetary one where the one that has the most money can get an advantage.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> On a 10.1 mile 6% climb a 175lb rider on a 14.7 lb bike can get to the top in 1:28:47 if the road is smooth, he is alone, there is no wind, and he can produce 253 watts. It will take him 27 seconds longer if he adds a pound to his bike and everything else remains the same.
> 
> Would you like me to do the downhill?


Unsubstantiated conjecture. Your tires only have so much grip. I can lock up my rim brakes, so they have plenty of power.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> Unsubstantiated conjecture. Your tires only have so much grip. I can lock up my rim brakes, so they have plenty of power.


Careful, your ignorance is showing.


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## JasonC71 (May 3, 2015)

mfdemicco said:


> Unsubstantiated conjecture. Your tires only have so much grip. I can lock up my rim brakes, so they have plenty of power.


Having now actually ridden a road bike with good hyro disc brakes (since posting this question), I gotta say I think your missing the point.

Any decent braking system can lock the wheels...but that doesn't stop you quick. What I liked about the disc brakes was how quickly I could stop...without locking things up. It was very easy to take the brakes right up to the point prior to lock. I could do it with one finger, and the feedback and feel was superb. 

Now to be fair...I have NOT ridden a high quality rim brake....they may very well be capable of the same thing.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

As someone else pointed out, shoving a stick in your spokes supplies plenty of power, it's just that the modulation and precision can sometimes be less than ideal.


mfdemicco said:


> Unsubstantiated conjecture. Your tires only have so much grip. I can lock up my rim brakes, so they have plenty of power.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

JasonC71 said:


> Having now actually ridden a road bike with good hyro disc brakes (since posting this question), I gotta say I think your missing the point.
> 
> Any decent braking system can lock the wheels...but that doesn't stop you quick. What I liked about the disc brakes was how quickly I could stop...without locking things up. It was very easy to take the brakes right up to the point prior to lock. I could do it with one finger, and the feedback and feel was superb.
> 
> Now to be fair...I have NOT ridden a high quality rim brake....they may very well be capable of the same thing.


I rode all over the Santa Cruz Mountains for a week recently. Not once did I think "Gee, my rim brakes suck. Wish I had disc brakes." Blissful ignorance, maybe, but I had no problems with my brakes. I also have a hard tail mountain bike with V brakes and one with discs. The V brakes work pretty darned well for dirt descents down Mt. Diablo. Dry conditions, yes. I rarely ever ride in the rain.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Actually, my calculator on my iphone is a bit screwed up. Here are the real numbers and they closely match actual experience.

A 183 lb rider on a 14.7 lb bike can climb a 10 mile 6% grade in 67.3 minutes if he can produce 250 watts and the average altitude is 4200 and the temperature is 58 degrees. If you add a pound to his bike, it will take him 67.59 or .29 of a minute longer (17.4 seconds)


mfdemicco said:


> Unsubstantiated conjecture. Your tires only have so much grip. I can lock up my rim brakes, so they have plenty of power.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> I rode all over the Santa Cruz Mountains for a week recently. Not once did I think "Gee, my rim brakes suck. Wish I had disc brakes." Blissful ignorance, maybe, but I had no problems with my brakes. I also have a hard tail mountain bike with V brakes and one with discs. The V brakes work pretty darned well for dirt descents down Mt. Diablo. Dry conditions, yes. I rarely ever ride in the rain.


But you've never ridden them so you really can't even have an 'opinion' that means squat. Until you try them just stop posting they're not worth it.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> But you've never ridden them so you really can't even have an 'opinion' that means squat. Until you try them just stop posting they're not worth it.


Just built up and maiden voyage on a new steel custom wood/gravel disc machine.

I put a TRP cable actuated hydr hybrid caliper and 180mm rotor on the front. I am in awe at the power as compared to the TRP-SLC and 160s on the Roubiax I sold off to build this.

Feels as good as my AVID Juicies on my Gary 29er... [160 rotors on that].

I love when folks make cometary on things with no actual empirical experience. MEH


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> But you've never ridden them so you really can't even have an 'opinion' that means squat. Until you try them just stop posting they're not worth it.


I'm going to let this one slide, but you really should adjust your attitude.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

JasonC71 said:


> Now to be fair...I have NOT ridden a high quality rim brake....they may very well be capable of the same thing.


They are. Similar to the other arguments here, if you haven't ridden Shimano 6800 or 9000 rim brakes, your opinion on modern rim brakes doesn't count.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Actually, my calculator on my iphone is a bit screwed up. Here are the real numbers and they closely match actual experience.


Did you do calculations on,your phone? If so are you aware of places like analytic cycling? Just plug the numbers in and up comes the results.

BTW it agrees with your results.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> I'm going to let this one slide, but you really should adjust your attitude.


That is the adjusted version.  He is usually more terse. ;O


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> I'm going to let this one slide, but you really should adjust your attitude.


I feel honored you've decided to 'let it slide'. If you can't deal w/ attitude maybe you should put me on ignore. 

Or figure out when to stay out of a thread you're not equipped to take part in.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

mfdemicco said:


> Not a very informative video. Nice scenery though. I'd like to see a timed event where a pro descends with discs and with rim brakes. Didn't see in the video that discs made any difference in descending times, because they both rode together. 500g is a lot of weight when comparing a disc vs. an equivalent rim brake bike, although pros often have to add weight to get their bike up to the minimum weight. However, I would not want to add 500g to my bike.


the guys at GCN are retired pros, hence their opinion about disc brakes being ready for the pro-peloton.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> I feel honored you've decided to 'let it slide'. If you can't deal w/ attitude maybe you should put me on ignore.
> 
> Or figure out when to stay out of a thread you're not equipped to take part in.


Whatever... This is an open forum and everyone is entitled to express their opinions and engage in discussion without insult, personal attack or intimidation. I'm sure the forum operators/moderators expect and desire to keep it that way. 

Please enlighten me how disc brakes will improve my road riding when I almost always ride in dry conditions. Also tell me why my experience with hydraulic mountain bike brakes, that I've ridden and maintained for 10 years, is irrelevant to the discussion. 

I'm not against disc brakes for road bikes. I don't think they'd do much for me and I'm not about to spend big money on a new bike on a whim that I'd find out otherwise.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> Not a very informative video. Nice scenery though. I'd like to see a timed event where a pro descends with discs and with rim brakes. Didn't see in the video that discs made any difference in descending times, because they both rode together. 500g is a lot of weight when comparing a disc vs. an equivalent rim brake bike, although pros often have to add weight to get their bike up to the minimum weight. However, I would not want to add 500g to my bike.


I agree, thought it was a bit silly that they just casually rode down together

I Copied and pasted this from my post on page 2:



> On the local Thursday night mountain ride, myself and another rider who works at a LBS are the fastest descenders of the group, we usually really go for it chasing our best times down a very technical descent. He gets to demo bikes from the shop and when he is on a rim brake bike I can keep up with him, but recently he has had a disc bike and I don't stand a chance. On the disc bike he can brake much later and every corner he just gets away from me a little more. In fact, one time I took off while he was still putting on his jacket and had a good lead on him, about halfway down he blows past me screaming "disc brakes are awesome!", he beat me to the bottom by over 30s


A bit anecdotal I know, but for something of a pro "comparison", my best time down the mountain is only 26s off of Fast Freddy Rodriguez (who was KOM for a while) and probably half of that time is lost on the uphill section where I can't maintain the same kind of speed he could. 

And also to note, the above other rider is primarily a MTB racer, so the notion made by another poster that mountain bike riders don't know how to brake is absurd.




mfdemicco said:


> I rode all over the Santa Cruz Mountains for a week recently. Not once did I think "Gee, my rim brakes suck. Wish I had disc brakes." Blissful ignorance, maybe, but I had no problems with my brakes. I also have a hard tail mountain bike with V brakes and one with discs. The V brakes work pretty darned well for dirt descents down Mt. Diablo. Dry conditions, yes. I rarely ever ride in the rain.


The above descent is also Mt Diablo, on the road, and I too have never thought my rim brakes "suck" and I obviously manage with rim brakes. I've also never thought them all that great either and certainly there is a lot of room for improvement. Just seeing how my ride partner rode away from me, and his comments about how amazing the disc brakes (which I've heard from quite a few others I know as well) were is proof enough for me. And more importantly than just being able to go faster down the hill, I want to be able to go slower down the hill; when I get stuck behind a car or other slow traffic and have to ride the brakes is when I worry about my rim brakes.





.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

robt57 said:


> Just built up and maiden voyage on a new steel custom wood/gravel disc machine.
> 
> I put a TRP cable actuated hydr hybrid caliper and *180mm rotor* on the front. I am in awe at the power as compared to the TRP-SLC and 160s on the Roubiax I sold off to build this.
> 
> ...


the thing with big rotors is that they also tend to warp faster over time compared to the smaller ones, and when they are warped (but still usable) they also tend to then make lots of loud squealing noise on long descents when heat builds up. You don't need 180mm for a gravel bike.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> Whatever... This is an open forum and everyone is entitled to express their opinions and engage in discussion without insult, personal attack or intimidation. I'm sure the forum operators/moderators expect and desire to keep it that way.
> 
> Please enlighten me how disc brakes will improve my road riding when I almost always ride in dry conditions. Also tell me why my experience with hydraulic mountain bike brakes, that I've ridden and maintained for 10 years, is irrelevant to the discussion.
> 
> I'm not against disc brakes for road bikes. I don't think they'd do much for me and I'm not about to spend big money on a new bike on a whim that I'd find out otherwise.


If you think anyone here is telling you to go out and buy a new bike you're seriously confused. What I'm saying is I have an issue w/ you saying that no one will benefit from disc brakes based on your 'never ridden them but don't have any problems w/ rim brakes' experience. I'm not the only one saying this, if you haven't noticed.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> If you think anyone here is telling you to go out and buy a new bike you're seriously confused. What I'm saying is I have an issue w/ you saying that no one will benefit from disc brakes based on your 'never ridden them but don't have any problems w/ rim brakes' experience. I'm not the only one saying this, if you haven't noticed.


I know I had a benefit when riding a bike with them. I love them hills and mtns.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> If you think anyone here is telling you to go out and buy a new bike you're seriously confused. What I'm saying is I have an issue w/ you saying that no one will benefit from disc brakes based on your 'never ridden them but don't have any problems w/ rim brakes' experience. I'm not the only one saying this, if you haven't noticed.


My, and I think many disc-opponents' points, are that a) for most competent riders in most conditions, disc brakes have more cons than pros (documented exhaustively elsewhere) and b) if everyone follows the bike/component manufacturers' direction in a sheep-like fashion, then those of us who neither need nor want road disc bikes will have no option but to adopt them when it comes time to purchase a new bike (witness Giant's Defy Advanced is only available with disc) and high-end replacement parts/wheels/etc. for rim brake equipped bikes will become unavailable. 

You know, kind of like when the technically-inferior VHS videotape system eliminated Beta from the market due solely to superior marketing/licensing and peoples' collective ignorance of the *real* pros/cons of each system. I do NOT want my road riding experience to be "Betamaxed" and be forced into buying, on balance, inferior technology for my needs. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

OldChipper said:


> My, and I think many disc-opponents' points, are that a) for most competent riders in most conditions, disc brakes have more cons than pros (documented exhaustively elsewhere) and b) if everyone follows the bike/component manufacturers' direction in a sheep-like fashion, then those of us who neither need nor want road disc bikes will have no option but to adopt them when it comes time to purchase a new bike (witness Giant's Defy Advanced is only available with disc) and high-end replacement parts/wheels/etc. for rim brake equipped bikes will become unavailable.
> 
> You know, kind of like when the technically-inferior VHS videotape system eliminated Beta from the market due solely to superior marketing/licensing and peoples' collective ignorance of the *real* pros/cons of each system. I do NOT want my road riding experience to be "Betamaxed" and be forced into buying, on balance, inferior technology for my needs. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.


I can understand and respect this. But...just to know, what kind of brakes do you have now? How many gears on your bike? Pedals? Just 'cuz I'm interested in that kind of thing.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

I just wanted to say that this thread is well on it's way to surpassing the 53/39 thread.

Carry on!


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

arai_speed said:


> I just wanted to say that this thread is well on it's way to surpassing the 53/39 thread.
> 
> Carry on!










Go team!


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

cxwrench said:


> ^Never ridden disc brakes I'm assuming.^ You don't _*need*_ indexed shifting or brake lever shifters or more than 5 cogs but I'll bet you have them, and probably adapted kicking and screaming the whole way.


Personally I am not a fan of brake lever shifters or large cog sets. My bikes run single speed or when geared use nine speed and bar end shifters. On the other hand I love my full hydro TRP disk brakes.

Different strokes for different folks. There will always be options so you can build a modern bike today with 5 cogs, down tube shifting, canti-brakes, etc. 

Disk brakes are an option; your next bike can be the bike you dream of. If you don't like disks go with rim brakes and be happy.

We don't all need to be sheep so mix retro with modern bike can mix stuff up to become your vision. Disk brakes are just one more option

One thing that I like about disk is that with sliding dropouts they work very well for single speed because when the rear wheel is moved to adjust chain tension the brake also moves to maintain alignment. Rim brakes do not work as well for this application.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> I can understand and respect this. But...just to know, what kind of brakes do you have now? How many gears on your bike? Pedals? Just 'cuz I'm interested in that kind of thing.


DA 9000, 11, Time Xpresso. All because they solved real problems (well OK 11 speeds not so much but as noted above that's what's available in high-end components because all the sheeple insisted on following the manufacturers' lead)


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm thinking that some real money can be made by rushing out and buying up all the rim brake bikes, calipers, and pads you can. Imagine how the value will increase when those bass turd marketers force everyone (against their will) into riding those useless disc braked monstrosities. 

You, and those who know the real truth, will be laughing all the way to the bank as you ride past those idiots on disc brakes. 

Because of my generosity, I'm not even going to ask for a piece of the action.


OldChipper said:


> DA 9000, 11, Time Xpresso. All because they solved real problems (well OK 11 speeds not so much but as noted above that's what's available in high-end components because all the sheeple insisted on following the manufacturers' lead)


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

arai_speed said:


> I just wanted to say that this thread is well on it's way to surpassing the 53/39 thread.
> 
> Carry on!


Well, you have to have disc brakes to stop when running a 53/.39. With those gears you are going like 90 mph in the small ring.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> I'm thinking that some real money can be made by rushing out and buying up all the rim brake bikes, calipers, and pads you can. Imagine how the value will increase when those bass turd marketers force everyone (against their will) into riding those useless disc braked monstrosities.
> 
> You, and those who know the real truth, will be laughing all the way to the bank as you ride past those idiots on disc brakes.
> 
> Because of my generosity, I'm not even going to ask for a piece of the action.


There are just enough sheeple that will buy into the disc brake thing that mfg won't see any real margin in making those bikes. Now, Shimano seems to "hold on" for a bit longer than most on still making older stuff.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Why is it that if disc brakes are so great, they are not recommended for tandem front brakes http://santanatandems.com/Techno/BrakePower.html


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

mfdemicco said:


> Why is it that if disc brakes are so great, they are not recommended for tandem front brakes Hierarchy of Braking Power


Comparing tandem and road bikes is like comparing comparing a Honda Accord to a full off road capable Jeep.

The stresses put on bike/vehicle are different and need to be accounted for in each design and it's intended discipline. 

However, you are welcome to put a rear disc brake with an 200 mm rotor on your road rig. Then, put a powerful V-Brake on the front wheel. Post pics when you finish.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

mfdemicco said:


> Why is it that if disc brakes are so great, they are not recommended for tandem front brakes Hierarchy of Braking Power


Do you have a tandem and wanted full on disc brakes?


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

> Why is it that if disc brakes are so great, they are not recommended for tandem front brakes Hierarchy of Braking Power


Because this giant rotor: Disc Brake Technology

Won't fit on conventional forks.



> Additionally, due to Santana's 160mm rear spacing we've got plenty of room for our brake's larger disc and more powerful calipers. The spacing constraints of a road tandem's standard front fork means fitting a front disc will require either a special wider hub and fork (read nonstandard front wheel and fork) or a severely dished front wheel that is prone to collapse during a tandem's low-speed turns.


Full blather here: Gear-To-Go Tandem Bicycles and Recumbents

I can Google too!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

harryman said:


> Because this giant rotor: Disc Brake Technology
> 
> Won't fit on conventional forks.
> 
> ...


I gotta get me a road rig with those on the front and back!!!!

The power, the modulation. I'd be OTB pulling with my nose hairs!!!!!!!!!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ohh Hot chic pic time


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

Upgraded GF from a Specialized Dolce Elite to a Specialized Ruby Elite with hydraulic disc yesterday. She struggled with decent, so I thought the added ez braking would help. 

Result...first test proved it to be a big win. Beyond the discs themselves, the shop moved the brakes closer to the bars. Her ride was quicker, and she claims better control. Probably the 25's over her old 23's which was a benefit I hadn't factored in. The new ride is also carbon vs. former aluminum.

Concern1...the wheels don't spin free. Took them back to the shop, which improved, but did not completely mitigate. They said tolerance small, and pad wear would rectify. Googling seemed to confirm, but needless to say I wasn't thrilled to see on a new bike. Will see if miles prove this out.

Concern2...shop explained that if you squeezed the brake while the wheel was off you'd lock the brake up and create a big problem. Gave us a plastic device to slip in and prevent. Just odd to me, as I've had hydraulic disc on my MTB for almost 10 years...never knew of the issue...apparently never locked myself up. Apparent miracle as we transport inside the SUV so the wheels come off virtually every ride.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

1) Same as mountain bike brakes. They should be able to set them up so they don't rub. I do it all the time. Non issue. 

2) Same as mountain bike brakes. You've obviously been doing it right for years, doubtful you'll start having issues now.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

ziscwg said:


> ohh Hot chic pic time
> 
> View attachment 308720


Today is Sunday, and she's about to get six ways from it.

On topic, I had a question regarding disc vs rim brakes in wet weather when you also have fenders. Do fenders in any way reduce the water on the rims and lessen the need for discs? I imagine the water picked up by the tires off the road would drip down, but the fender would also be blocking the falling rain.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SauronHimself said:


> Today is Sunday, and she's about to get six ways from it.
> 
> On topic, I had a question regarding disc vs rim brakes in wet weather when you also have fenders. Do fenders in any way reduce the water on the rims and lessen the need for discs? I imagine the water picked up by the tires off the road would drip down, but the fender would also be blocking the falling rain.


I have just assembled a bike with full coverage Honjo fenders, and with limited experience riding in wet conditions(2 or 3 wet rides) I can honestly say that the rims get as wet as ever. 

The bottom bracket and tubes don't get covered in road scum, but the tires are still running through puddles and mud and all the rest of it, the crap just gets deflected away from the bike and rider by the fenders.

But even with that, I can't say that I have a _need_ for discs. In fact after riding with fenders, I'd say that fenders are a better upgrade than disc brakes.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SauronHimself said:


> Today is Sunday, and she's about to get six ways from it.
> 
> On topic, I had a question regarding disc vs rim brakes in wet weather when you also have fenders. Do fenders in any way reduce the water on the rims and lessen the need for discs? I imagine the water picked up by the tires off the road would drip down, but the fender would also be blocking the falling rain.


The rims will still get wet unless you are riding at 2 mph. If you have the need for fenders, discs will be an advantage. They are not required, just a nice thing to have in the wet.


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## xml-2277 (Dec 31, 2014)

Good point. Riders might be forced to go custom builder to get caliper brakes. It is already that way with threaded bottom brackets.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

durace works great.

Shimano R785 road hydraulic disc caliper failure - BikeRadar USA


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## HEMIjer (Oct 18, 2008)

Seem me all the reputable new tandems that come to mind come with big old front disc, Cannondale for road bike and Salsa for mountain bike. Seven seems to be the king of custom tandems and am guessing will be build whatever you will pay for but not a coincidence the pictures on there website are all disc tandems.

When my kids get big enough to fit on one we will own one of the above (or something similar)!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Rokh Hard said:


> durace works great.
> 
> Shimano R785 road hydraulic disc caliper failure - BikeRadar USA


One cracked caliper piston causing failure.

The nice thing about rim brakes and cables is that NO ONE has ever pulled the brake and broken a cable. The cable/caliper interface is so idiot proof that if you leave the brake quick release up, it closes for you. We all know if you leave it up, your braking for that wheel is nearly non existent.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

ziscwg said:


> We all know if you leave it up, your braking for that wheel is nearly non existent.


Unless your quick-release is in the lever, like it is with Campagnolo. Once you take the extra play out of the lever, braking with the Campy release in the open position is no different than braking with the release in the closed position.

Never experienced an open Shimano release "closing for you." Clue me in.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> One cracked caliper piston causing failure.
> 
> The nice thing about rim brakes and cables is that NO ONE has ever pulled the brake and broken a cable. *The cable/caliper interface is so idiot proof that if you leave the brake quick release up, it closes for you*. We all know if you leave it up, your braking for that wheel is nearly non existent.


I beg to differ.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> One cracked caliper piston causing failure.
> 
> The nice thing about rim brakes and cables is that NO ONE has ever pulled the brake and broken a cable. The cable/caliper interface is so idiot proof that if you leave the brake quick release up, it closes for you. We all know if you leave it up, your braking for that wheel is nearly non existent.





cxwrench said:


> I beg to differ.


No begging for sarcasm. I deliver it no matter what.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> One cracked caliper piston causing failure.



well....that we know about, that shimano is discussing, and of course no more will happen.



> The nice thing about rim brakes and cables is that NO ONE has ever pulled the brake and broken a cable.


unlike the ease of inspection, service, cost and replacement of a ceramic brake caliper pistons (which my 16yr old daughter can do, while fiddling with her iphone/facetime with her girlfriends and putting on play makeup) similar inspection, service, cost and replacement of traditional rim brake cables takes a high level degree in mechanical engineering and a butt load of specialized tools to execute.....and the cost of that cable, take out a second on the house to remedy.





> The cable/caliper interface is so idiot proof that if you leave the brake quick release up, it closes for you. We all know if you leave it up, your braking for that wheel is nearly non existent.



couple of thoughtful suggestions


1) pull your brake lever before you ride, commonly known as a "brake check".

2) pull your brake lever before you ride, esp a before a decent, commonly known as "brake check".

3) check your bike over (including your brakes) before you ride, commonly known as "bike check".




> No begging for sarcasm. I deliver it no matter what.



more begging please, you look so good doing it.​


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

So Santana claims you can not lock up a rear disk on a tandem, but you can with rim brakes. I have two mountain bikes; one with V brakes and one with discs. I do not think the disc one has more powerful brakes, though the disc ones have a little better modulation. So, why the need for disc brakes on road bikes? Someone had a new Giant one on a ride yesterday. Puny rotors and no thru axle.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Disc brakes systems run the spectrum from good to poor. Currently Shimano hydro discs set the bar for the road disc industry. Full Hydro disc systems are generally considered superior for mountain bikes as well. 

Don't know what Santanas motives are since they seem to promote the idea that all disc brakes are created equal


mfdemicco said:


> So Santana claims you can not lock up a rear disk on a tandem, but you can with rim brakes. I have two mountain bikes; one with V brakes and one with discs. I do not think the disc one has more powerful brakes, though the disc ones have a little better modulation. So, why the need for disc brakes on road bikes? Someone had a new Giant one on a ride yesterday. Puny rotors and no thru axle.


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

> 2) Same as mountain bike brakes. You've obviously been doing it right for years, doubtful you'll start having issues now.


Yep, unless you're an idiot and squeeze the lever a bunch of times, you're not going to send the pistons all the way in. Plus, even if you do, you can pry them back out, slide your wheel in and they will self adjust to the rotor.

Those little blocks are just to give brake manufacturers customer service reps an out.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> No begging for sarcasm. I deliver it no matter what.





cxwrench said:


> I beg to differ.





ziscwg said:


> One cracked caliper piston causing failure.
> 
> The nice thing about rim brakes and cables is that NO ONE has ever pulled the brake and broken a cable. The cable/caliper interface is so idiot proof that if you leave the brake quick release up, it closes for you. We all know if you leave it up, your braking for that wheel is nearly non existent.





Rokh Hard said:


> well....that we know about, that shimano is discussing, and of course no more will happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ya know, I guess I wrote my original part incorrectly as I intended it to all be sarcasm. 

I got the impression from my org quote of Rokh Hard that he was the "See, one failed. They are all bad." type of thing. I'm a big proponent of road disc. I have loved it on all the bikes I have ridden with them. They are not perfect, but are an improvement.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> Ya know, I guess I wrote my original part incorrectly as I intended it to all be sarcasm.
> 
> I got the impression from my org quote of Rokh Hard that he was the "See, one failed. They are all bad." type of thing. I'm a big proponent of road disc. I have loved it on all the bikes I have ridden with them. They are not perfect, but are an improvement.




its ok....this site is all love. carry on.....just check your brakes before you do.


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## MercRidnMike (Dec 19, 2006)

Discs have their place, but adapting them to road use seems to be the issue. On the mtb, I have modulation, no fading and gobs of power....great for the kind of riding I do where finessing the brakes and having immediate massive power can both be needed. Granted, I'm not running the originals that came with my mtb (they were s#!t and quickly replaced with something good).

For road bikes, part of the issue is the teething pains of trying to adapt good hydraulic discs to the levers and weight expectations of the road crowd. I've seen a number of cable-actuated discs on road bikes...but I was never a fan and with long descents, I could see those warping hard...all it takes is a little lapse in maintenance with the non-moving pad and...well....loud and warped come to mind.

In the wet, I love the discs....at least with the right pads. I know a lot of folks who don't know what pads work best for what conditions (organics, metallics, semi-metalics)....just like proper pads are a must with carbon rims vs. alu rims, it's good to match the disc pads to what / where you ride.

I think there are numerous issues as to why discs are getting "hate." Part of it has been the quality of the initial offerings (it was the same way for mtbs), part of it is the weight-weenieness, part is growing pains in finding what is acceptable and part performance (noise, power and modulation). Realistically, I think discs will eventually be the norm...but there will be a fair bit of growing pains between now and then.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

HEMIjer said:


> Seem me all the reputable new tandems that come to mind come with big old front disc, Cannondale for road bike and Salsa for mountain bike. Seven seems to be the king of custom tandems and am guessing will be build whatever you will pay for but not a coincidence the pictures on there website are all disc tandems.
> 
> When my kids get big enough to fit on one we will own one of the above (or something similar)!


The sheeple believe that disc brakes are better and want them on their tandems, whether they are, in reality, better or not. Most companies give their customers what they want. Santana did testing and believes otherwise. That probably cost them some sales. In my opinion, bravo for them.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> Ya know, I guess I wrote my original part incorrectly as I intended it to all be sarcasm.
> 
> I got the impression from my org quote of Rokh Hard that he was the "See, one failed. They are all bad." type of thing. I'm a big proponent of road disc. I have loved it on all the bikes I have ridden with them. They are not perfect, but are an improvement.


I'm gonna make a million developing a 'sarcasm' font. Just watch, you'll see!


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> I'm gonna make a million developing a 'sarcasm' font. Just watch, you'll see!


Somebody already tried--the short-lived and infamous "Sarmarc"

Article here: The Rise and Fall of the Infamous SarcMark - The Daily Beast

Perfect for people who have reading comprehension problems, and who are not alive to irony and sarcasm....


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> The sheeple believe that disc brakes are better and want them on their tandems, whether they are, in reality, better or not. Most companies give their customers what they want. Santana did testing and believes otherwise. That probably cost them some sales. In my opinion, bravo for them.


Don't even start w/ this.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> *So Santana claims you can not lock up a rear disk on a tandem, but you can with rim brakes.* I have two mountain bikes; one with V brakes and one with discs. I do not think the disc one has more powerful brakes, though the disc ones have a little better modulation. So, why the need for disc brakes on road bikes? Someone had a new Giant one on a ride yesterday. Puny rotors and no thru axle.


And you believe that? I just rode a customers Seven tandem. Cable discs. With 2 people, no problem locking the rear wheel. Would be even easier w/ hydros. Who you gonna belive?


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> And you believe that? I just rode a customers Seven tandem. Cable discs. With 2 people, no problem locking the rear wheel. Would be even easier w/ hydros. Who you gonna belive?


This is what was written:

"Single bike riders (along with the engineers at Shimano and Avid) will reply that disc brakes have more than enough power for single bikes. We agree. On a single bike, a rear 8-inch disc has enough power to lock the rear wheel. On a tandem, however, an 8-inch disc isn’t powerful enough to skid the rear tire. Think we’re wrong? Take any road tandem with a rear disc and (with a stoker aboard) attempt a rear wheel skid on smooth, dry, level pavement (without applying the front brake at the same time). People who try this test are invariably disappointed when they fail to skid the tire. Next, perform the same test on any tandem with a rear V-brake to prove to yourself that rim brakes are considerably more powerful, and will easily skid a tandem’s rear tire."

Did your test conditions differ from this? Hard to believe they (Santana) couldn't lock up their brake with the monster rotor though.

Another thing, this is from an instruction manual (BRM-665 SLX) for Shimano disc brakes: 

"Shimano disc brake systems are not compatible with tandem bicycles. Because tandem bicycles have a high overall weight, the load on the brake system increases during brake operation. If hydraulic disc brakes are used with tandem bicycles, the oil temperature will become too high and vapor locks or ruptures in the brake hoses may occur, and this will cause the brakes to fail."

So my question is, does Shimano have any hydraulic disc brakes they say can be used for tandems?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> This is what was written:
> 
> "Single bike riders (along with the engineers at Shimano and Avid) will reply that disc brakes have more than enough power for single bikes. We agree. On a single bike, a rear 8-inch disc has enough power to lock the rear wheel. On a tandem, however, an 8-inch disc isn’t powerful enough to skid the rear tire. Think we’re wrong? Take any road tandem with a rear disc and (with a stoker aboard) attempt a rear wheel skid on smooth, dry, level pavement (without applying the front brake at the same time). People who try this test are invariably disappointed when they fail to skid the tire. Next, perform the same test on any tandem with a rear V-brake to prove to yourself that rim brakes are considerably more powerful, and will easily skid a tandem’s rear tire."
> 
> ...


I live in CA...it's ALWAYS dry. Smoothish pavement. I was on the back, 170ish pounds. Rear wheel locked up no problem. 180mm rotors.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Yep, while this Shimano hydro disc system has been on mountain bikes for a long time, Shimano has been paying off the mountain bikers and all of us hydro road disc users to keep our mouths shut about this pervasive failure. In the two seasons that I've been on shimano hydro discs I've made millions. 

I just hope that nobody exposes this vast conspiracy.


Rokh Hard said:


> well....that we know about, that shimano is discussing, and of course no more will happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

MercRidnMike said:


> Discs have their place, but adapting them to road use seems to be the issue. On the mtb, I have modulation, no fading and gobs of power....great for the kind of riding I do where finessing the brakes and having immediate massive power can both be needed. Granted, I'm not running the originals that came with my mtb (they were s#!t and quickly replaced with something good).
> 
> For road bikes, part of the issue is the teething pains of trying to adapt good hydraulic discs to the levers and weight expectations of the road crowd. I've seen a number of cable-actuated discs on road bikes...but I was never a fan and with long descents, I could see those warping hard...all it takes is a little lapse in maintenance with the non-moving pad and...well....loud and warped come to mind.
> 
> ...


I now have two seasons on Shimano hydro discs and have used both organic and metalic in both dry and wet conditions. I've had no problems with either. I have had a minor noise issue caused by contaminated organic pads, but it was easily fixed (melted asphalt on rotors--changed pads and cleaned rotor).

I've had no other problems. The increased precision and consistent behavior has significantly improved my speed on twisting descents. Hydro discs have raised the fun factor substantially on my vacations riding the hairpins of the Dolomites for the past two years.

You are correct that Sram was clueless with their failed first attempt. I'm a Campy fan and am anxious to see their contribution to the party when it finally hits the market. On the other hand, I'm hard pressed to find any problem with my Shimano Dura ace di2 hydro discs except aesthetics.


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## Peter_T (Jun 3, 2009)

I can see why disc brakes are popular with MTB riders and road riders who want to do BMX-style tricks. But as a distance / endurance road cyclist I am not remotely tempted by disc brakes yet. With disc brakes I'll wear out rims less quickly but at the cost of more weight and greater cost and trouble maintaining brakes in between. A zero sum game, at best. I note also that disc brakes are still rare with pro road racing people: people who are so obsessed with small advantages that they fiddle minutely with the right gasoline / oil mix for chain lubrication; people who are willing to eat nothing but thorns and ground squirrel feces, if they think that will make them the slightest bit faster.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Peter_T said:


> ... I note also that disc brakes are still rare with pro road racing people: people who are so obsessed with small advantages that they fiddle minutely with the right gasoline / oil mix for chain lubrication; people who are willing to eat nothing but thorns and ground squirrel feces, if they think that will make them the slightest bit faster.


Maybe they have been rare with the pro road folks because UCI did NOT allow them until this year, and then that was restricted to two race trials. Let's see what happens next year.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

remember google glasses?


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

Sven Nys now running Shimano hydro disc brakes. Also running 1X11 setup (11-26T cassette and 48T front chainring).

Pro Bike Profile: Sven Nys' Trek Boone at the CrossVegas World Cup - Cyclocross Magazine - Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos

It's coming people. You won't stop it.


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