# true bikesdirect weights on high end purchases? (Le Champion ti titanium)



## khouse123 (Mar 7, 2018)

Has anyone recently purchased one of the smaller high end BD bikes? Hopefully the top tier le champion Ti bikes? Can you comment on their weights? Are bikes direct bikes general 1-2 pounds over quotes?

I'm interested in buying a dura ace, or etap bike, in 48cm size, it's currently a little under $3000 at bikesdirect. Figuring it's an investment. I've done some looking around to see if there are any used bikes. After contacting 5 sellers (on craigslist) I've noticed 51 cm bikes seem considerably heavier than I thought they'd be.

I've come across ultegra kits, not dura ace, but responses are always the same that the 51 cm titanium motobecane le champions are mid 18-19lbs this seems far from manufacture specs, the ultegra bikes are listed at 16.4 to 17.25 lbs, yes for a 48 cm, but 51 cm it's that much larger seems heavy for a $2000+ bike

From what I've understood the main differences between the higher end shimano components is often weight and durability. I'm sure the TI frame is likely too blame, but what's the point of a $2000-3,000 bike, with likely B grade oem parts that weighs almost 19lbs, probably over 20lbs for a larger frame? 

The le champions on bikesdirect have older generation parts (maybe B grade / lower quality oem than typical lbs sale). After doing some research on what I thought would be a simple purchase I'm having doubts about buying from BD. 

My thoughts are for $2100-3,000 I can get a broker to find me a quality bike vs throwing the dice on a bikes direct bike that I might be very unhappy with, if I received a 48 cm bike that was close to mid 18s/19lbs I'd return it for $3000 i'd rather return and pay a few hundred than keep, I dunno maybe I'm being cheap, or my expectations are to high, they do use "quotes."


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Wait...Bikes Direct and 'top tier' in the same sentence?


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Don't put your trust in weights listed on the internet or reported to you by owners. If weight is as important to you as it seems to be, you need to be able to weigh the product yourself before you pony up the cash.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I recently put a bike together that ran almost $6000 and it weighs 20 lbs. You're not going to notice the difference between a 16 lbs bike and a 19 lbs bike. And titanium hasn't been the 'gee whiz that's light' material for a long time. My 56 cm titanium bike with Campy Chorus 11 speed and custom wheels that weigh 1550 grams is maybe 18 lbs. If you want a really light bike, look at carbon fiber, and don't look at Bikes Direct. And plan to spend a lot more than $2000. 

That said, for $3000, the titanium bikes direct offering is a pretty good deal. You can always peel off the Motobecane decals and buy some from Litespeed decals -- then no one would know that you are so frugal. The Shimano parts they list are 8000 and 9100 -- the most current, not 'grade B' parts. I'm not familiar with SRAM components, so I have no idea what version they're using. 

Try contacting BD. The guy who owns them used to post here.

Bikes Direct has my vote for being the saddle sore of roadbikereview forums. It just keeps coming back, and none of us can resist picking at the oozing sore that it is.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

pmf said:


> Try contacting BD. The guy who owns them used to post here


That used to be Mike Spratt or Dr. Mike Spratt. Not sure if he still owns the outfit. But if he does, perhaps posting his name here will lure him out of hiding. 

Don't expect too much information. BikesDirect basically forwards boxed-up bikes from a country of origin to the buyer. I don't think they would weigh a bike for you because it would mean unboxing and assembling it. But who knows, things change.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

' B grade parts'?? what is this rumour?

if you get a derailleur which says Ultegra or Dura Ace on it, you got the real thing. Shimano (nor the others) doesn't dump rejects on the market

With BD, you basically get a nice build kit, and a free frame, the way I see it. Then can go frame shopping in a couple years to try something different


----------



## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I got a cheap MTB of theirs a few years back. While most of it was decent, it's the things people don't pay attention to is what you discover once you try upgrading it: the bars alone were insanely heavy. The same goes for the stem. Cheap discs, headset, basic iron bolts. You'll spend like $300 to $500 to upgrade those to standard parts.
That being said, as PMF said, don't stress too much on weight. I went from a 16.5lb carbon bike to a 21lb steel bike. And yes, I'm happier with the ride!


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I've been looking at the BD titanium bike with Shimano Dura Ace 9100

Save Up to 60% OFf Shimano Dura Ace DA9100 Dura Ace 9100 Road Bikes | Titanium Road Bikes | Roadbikes - Motobecane Le Champion Team Ti

As much as we all like to dis BD, its pretty impressive set up for the money. I put a 9100 group on my wife's Colnago (yeah, I know ...) last year -- it ran me around $1500 at one of those UK web vendors. The BD has a full 9100 group on it -- no cheesy FSA cranks, Tektro brakes, or other cheap substitutions. The tubes are claimed to be butted 3/2.5 alloy -- not straight gauge. The welds look OK -- not too gloppy. There's no carbon bars or anything fancy, but Ritchey WCS stuff is decent. I'm not a fan of Mavic Ksyrium wheels, but they're better than what comes on most bikes that cost $2800. The pedals are crap, but so what, that's a personal thing everyone changes anyway. All in all, it's a great deal for the money. I bet the decals come right off with some acetone.


----------



## Mcfarton (May 23, 2014)

That bike seems like a bargain to me. That group set is very nice and it comes with a whole bike. I don’t think that it will be light but that is not what TI bikes are all about. If you are not happy with the bike I would swap out the group set for something cheaper and sell the bike on Craigslist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

You get what you pay for. As the saying goes in the world of bikes:

1) Light
2) Durable
3) Cheap

Pick two.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Lombard said:


> You get what you pay for. As the saying goes in the world of bikes:
> 
> 1) Light
> 2) Durable
> ...


No. It's light, stiff, cheap ... pick two


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pmf said:


> No. It's light, stiff, cheap ... pick two


Regardless, you're not getting more than 2 out of any of these.


----------



## jmoryl (Sep 5, 2004)

Two things: Quoted bike weights from vendors are often for the smallest frame without things you would normally have on a bike: e.g. pedals, bottle cages, etc. As was said above, if you want light, don't look at Ti.

The low end Bikesdirect bikes often have brand X stuff outside of the derailleurs or other showcase parts, but this tends to be not so much the case as you go up the hierarchy. Look at the BB or brakes on a low end bike from a major brand and you might see something similar. To their BD's credit, they give a list with the make and model of every component, so you can decide. Someone I ride with has a Motobecane carbon bike with eTap, and it is all decent stuff: Ritchey WCS and Mavic Ksyrium wheels. I don't care for the graphics of the frame, but it appears to be your basic made in Taiwan monocoque, and he is very happy with it.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Lombard said:


> Regardless, you're not getting more than 2 out of any of these.


No. You're correct Lombard. The saying is:

1) Light
2) Durable
3) Cheap

Pick two. Performance used to make the Scattante XRL frameset that was fairly light and stiff and sold for $299. I remember seeing a few CAT5 and CAT4 racers on these. They delivered the goods. Back in 2011, the bike shop a buddy of mine worked at had a customer with one built up with full Dura Ace 7800, Speedplays, Ritchey WCS cockpit and Ksyriums SL wheels. It was just under 17 lbs. I test rode one of their Scattante R660s and that bike was pretty darn stiff.


----------



## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

I bought that model of Ti bike (2012) from them in a size 53. I've had very few complaints. I didn't weigh it but it feels light to me. Their sizing does run a bit large. The 53 is a little big and the 51 would have been a little small for me.

I had to iron out a few small issues with it like getting seat clamp to hold but overall, I'm very happy with the purchase. I really wanted a titanium bike and the price at BD can't be beaten.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

terbennett said:


> No. You're correct Lombard. The saying is:
> 
> 1) Light
> 2) Durable
> ...


But it wasn't durable?

The 'light, cheap, stiff' saying might be getting dated. I first heard it when the only company making aluminum bikes was Vitus ... and they weren't stiff, although Sean Kelly may beg to differ. 

This was back when gee whiz light was anything under 20 lbs. So the BD titanium bike does pass the test back when that saying was coined, and I assume its durable to boot.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pmf said:


> But it wasn't durable?
> 
> The 'light, cheap, stiff' saying might be getting dated. I first heard it when the only company making aluminum bikes was Vitus ... and they weren't stiff, although Sean Kelly may beg to differ.
> 
> This was back when gee whiz light was anything under 20 lbs. So the BD titanium bike does pass the test back when that saying was coined, and I assume its durable to boot.



And you know what happens when you a$$-ume.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

It was durable, and fairly light, but the frameset wasn't as light as some higher end framesets of the time. A full Dura Ace equipped aluminum race bike with Ksyrium SLs isn't that light at 17 lbs with just pedals and FSA SLK components. the CAAD10-1 in 2011 was 1 lb. lighter with 7900 Dura Ace shifters derailleurs and 6700 Ultegra brakes, chain, and cassette. The CAAD also had Shimanos RS80 wheels, which were a good 100 grams heavier than what the Scattante had.


----------



## khouse123 (Mar 7, 2018)

I feel like buying a used aluminum or carbon bike, maybe even a vintage ti, for something around $1000 might be better for me. I thought I'd get a significant weight savings with a larger budget, thinking their $3k bikes might actually be around mid to low 17 lbs like the quote (I ride a xs or small frame and have been looking for those frames- BD are 18-19 lbs for ultegra bikes the upgraded bike will likely be about give or take a pound lighter, putting it at high 17/18lbs).

I can probably pick up something made in the last 10 years maybe not the most modern gear ratios but likely similar/modern geometry same weight 18 -19 lbs for a 48-50cm. I've owned a cheap $150 off brand bike that weighed 23lbs with brifters, pedals, reflectors, cage etc. I currently own an almost 10 year old single speed that is slightly under 19lbs and could weigh less if I upgraded the wheel set. I didn't want to go up in weight because I feel like I do notice a difference in the 19-23lbs, but $3k for a bike that actually weighs minimally less, or potentially more, doesn't make sense. yeah I know it's like apples and oranges....but hey I'm cheap.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

khouse123 said:


> I feel like buying a used aluminum or carbon bike, maybe even a vintage ti, for something around $1000 might be better for me.


I wouldn't touch a used carbon bike. And you will never find a $1000 Ti bike unless it's been beaten up.



khouse123 said:


> I thought I'd get a significant weight savings with a larger budget, thinking their $3k bikes might actually be around mid to low 17 lbs like the quote (I ride a xs or small frame and have been looking for those frames- BD are 18-19 lbs for ultegra bikes the upgraded bike will likely be about give or take a pound lighter, putting it at high 17/18lbs).


So let me ask you this. How much do you think your average speed will improve on the 18lb. bike vs. the 19lb. bike?


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

pmf said:


> But it wasn't durable?
> 
> The 'light, cheap, stiff' saying might be getting dated. I first heard it when the only company making aluminum bikes was Vitus ... and they weren't stiff, although Sean Kelly may beg to differ.
> 
> This was back when gee whiz light was anything under 20 lbs. So the BD titanium bike does pass the test back when that saying was coined, and I assume its durable to boot.


Oh yes! The Vitus aluminum frames! I remember riding one of those. I had never noticed frame flex until riding one of those. Still amazes me that Sean Kelly wasn't annoyed by climbing on that. I was.


----------



## khouse123 (Mar 7, 2018)

Bikesdirect won't list the bike as 17-18lbs because there are known brand name entry level bikes that can compete with that price and weight.... which means it's actually not as good of a deal as buyers think. 

Overall I would not suggest buying a new stock bike from bd over $1000, unless it was a clearance option and a few hundred off the typcial bd prices. When you buy with them you don't have the brand privilege and service you get with a regular bike shop. A lot of local shops can offer great bikes around the $1500-2500 range with fitting and servicing etc. It's likely all the motobecane bikes weigh 1-2lbs over quoted weights, my bike is about 1.5 lbs over.

I was lucky enough to end up getting an older Le Champion for around $750 in like new condition off of craigslist. It's a stock 51cm titanium Motobecane Ultegra Le Champion which is the entry level TI bike.

My thoughts are, bikes are only as valuable as what people want to pay for them. Most people probably buy Motobecanes to get a "better deal for your money." However, there should be more transparency on bikesdirect's behalf, you get Zero service with them. Buying with them is all about saving money and getting a "better bike", the question is are the bikes actually better? Some cases yes, others no. Their discount site bikeisland.com offers the most competitive deals. I feel like if you don't get what you think you're getting it's really questionable if it's a better deal.

The website should accurately represent the bike weights, you should get what's quoted or have the right to return the bike for *free*. I'm betting major bike brands do not have as much discrepancy as BD.

My motobecane ultegra bike model is quoted to be 16.4 - 17.25 lbs. The actual weight is a few grams under 18 lbs **without pedals** in accordance to quoted weights. I doubt the 48 cm is even close to 16.4 - 17.25 lbs. Am I happy with 18lb, yes because I didn't pay $2300, which is the current price. Would I be as happy if I paid $2300 probably not.

The Dura-Ace le champion 48 cm is quoted to be 15.5 - 16.9 lbs; I find it hard to believe that they could shed over 2lbs.

In general weight doesn't truly matter. We all get caught up in trying to get the lightest bike, but for most cyclists we don't race or ride in capacities that it truly matters.


----------



## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Just a general comment about Ti frames...A friend of mine owns Vassago. If I understood him correctly a light 3/2.5 Ti frame that rides well would come in around 1200g. Put a less than light fork and mid tier group and weigh it with pedals, cages, computer mounts etc...it can quickly add up to 19 lbs. Point is, if you're really concerned about a pound or three Ti frames are not for you.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

woodys737 said:


> Just a general comment about Ti frames...A friend of mine owns Vassago. If I understood him correctly a light 3/2.5 Ti frame that rides well would come in around 1200g. Put a less than light fork and mid tier group and weigh it with pedals, cages, computer mounts etc...it can quickly add up to 19 lbs. Point is, if you're really concerned about a pound or three Ti frames are not for you.


Agree. My Lynskey Ti bike weighs 19.5 lbs with a Potenza groups and standard wheels. The bare frame is 1750grams. My steel Colnago weighs 19.3 lbs. Both are large frames (59c-c). There are good reasons to buy Ti but its not a weight weenie material anymore


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

You make some good points. I especially like the one where a few pounds isn't going to make a noticeable difference to most cyclists. 

A LBS does provide services that BD doesn't. And the consumer pays for those services as higher prices. The question I'd ask is, are these services worth the higher bike prices? I think the more experience you get with cycling equipment, the less its worth it. For people just starting out, the LBS services are probably well worth the money, rather than ending up with an ill fitting bike.


----------



## greatscott (Jan 31, 2019)

I know a guy who has an older version of the Motobecane Ti bike, can't recall when he bought it but maybe 6 years ago. Anyway it did weigh about 3/4ths of a pound to a pound MORE than they said it would, but that's not a big deal. At the time it was a good deal for a TI bike, and he still rides it a lot today and never had any issues with it. Not sure if the newer models have kept up with the quality of back then but the prices have certainly gone up to the point where I'm not sure you could get a similar deal from someone else. I know that you can get a Reilly Gradient fully equipped with 105 for about $400 more than a Motobecane, but the Reilly would have more resale value if that's important to you. Otherwise, and again this based on a 6 year old or so Moto, that from what I've seen of it, and from what my friend talks about it, it's a great bike. The only weak spot on the Moto is the fork, the stock fork is a bit flexy which I assume that was done for comfort since most people buying from Bikes Direct are not going to be fast mountain burners; so one could change out the fork after some time to say a Envy 2.0 that would be a lot stiffer. Again though after 6 years of a lot mountain riding (we both live in California) he hasn't done anything to it other than pedals, saddle and of course tires, chains and one set of cables, he hasn't even changed out the wheels which according to most people that's where the Moto lacked the most back when he got his, the new version uses DT Swiss wheels, not sure if they are better or not then older models wheels but DT Swiss makes decent stuff. Actually the included pedals and saddle were the worse he swapped those out fast. But the welds look really well done, the frame has a shiny texture to it, it use to be made by ORA which is a highly recognized Asian TI builder, I'm not sure if the new ones are still made by ORA. If you buy one I think all you need is the Ultegra level, but that's up to you of course, but to go with DA is more for racing and they aren't quite as robust as Ultegra which means you could be replacing stuff some time down the road and DA replacement parts are not cheap (that statement I just made will cause an uproar, but I'll stay out it).

LBS isn't going to save you any money over labor charges or parts costs if you buy a bike directly from them vs from someone else, I've around bikes and LBS's for a long time and they don't discrimate like that. My friend with the Moto took his bike down to the LBS to have them put it together, make sure everything was properly lubed and adjust everything and the whole bill came to about $70...that's not bad, I had known the guy was going to buy the Moto I would have done it for him for free, but he surprised me with it. The LBS even offered to do a profit for him which he had done. 

As far as an ill fitting bike goes, you know what? these are off the shelf bike sizes, just as LBS's carry, most LBS employees are young college kids who really don't know how to fit a bike to you other than ask for your height and the away they go hoping they have something close to right size in stock for you; crying out loud you can get the same information at Bikes Direct website where it says sizing chart, look up your size and there you go. Off the shelf bikes at an LBS will have the same issue as a Bikes Direct bike in size problems, like is the stem too short or too long for you? A stock bike from an LBS will come with whatever stem was supplied by the manufacture and not the LBS, in fact you won't even know at an LBS if the stem is too long or too short until you had the bike a while. I've known people who went to LBS's to buy a bike and later found out the bike shop sold them the wrong size bike that didn't even match the height of the person to the frame size! So really? If making sure you get the absolute correct size for you is extremely important then go the custom frame build route where the frame builder will have you measure several different areas of your body parts and will design a bike frame custom made to fit you, and even then you still might need a profit done!

All of this don't buy on the internet is all scare tactics, people are scared that you're going to run a LBS out of business because you didn't buy from them...get over it guys, we live in capitalistic society and that type of society generates competition and things change which is why Sears can't keep up because they couldn't change, so should we all race down to Sears to keep them in business? NO, the same is true with an LBS. LBS's will NEVER disappear from the face of the earth unlike Sears, they offer a needed service and will be around a very long time. They still garnish a huge percentage of all bicycle and cycling related sales over any other type of internet stores or big box stores.

Off the side a bit; but Sears had the chance to become what Amazon is today, the idea was promoted to Sears but Sears didn't think it would work, Amazon was formed about a month or two after Sears thought it wouldn't work. I find that odd since Sears started out as a catalog store I would have thought they would have grabbed the Amazon concept full hog, but instead they rejected the idea, and the rest is history and so is Sears.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Great Scott ... that's a longass post.


----------



## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

OP is probably long gone but a few things about this thread hurt my head.

Okay, maybe there aren't enough details to really judge, but posting in Beginner forum about shopping for your first road bike and already knowing you want a 9100 or eTAP sub-17 pound bike... my guess is the 1 pound being freaked out about is going to end up being meaningless. Anyway, I think the weight obsession in this case would go away after some test rides of bikes at a shop (real rides, not a lap around the parking lot).

"I thought I'd get a significant weight savings with a larger budget"... all a matter of perspective, what is your definition of significant and what is your definition of larger budget? Price of weight savings is certainly not linear when it comes to bikes. And $3000 is "bike of my dreams" for some and cheap/average for others.

I'm pretty BD-neutral, never have bought from them. I have one friend with one of these Ti Motobecanes and he swears by it, it's definitely a nice ride, and I don't know the exact weight but his is definitely sub-16 if I remember what he said about it. Anyway, listing "no service" as a knock when you're buying online is sort of like, "duh". It's not long before you have to pay for most service anyway after a free tune-up or two... and most LBS are going to charge the same price regardless of where you got the bike. Find a shop where you like the mechanics and they like you, where the bike originally came from is not going to matter.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Your last comment is spot on. The "free" tune ups bike shops offer are worth what you pay for them. If there's a serious problem, it won't be free. I have a bike shop I've been frequenting for years. I know most of the mechanics (and none of the sales people) by name. I like them. They like me. At least it seems that way. A lot of times I'm having some kind of issue and I take the bike in and they fix it for free. I've never bought a bike at the shop because they don't sell the type of bikes I like. I do buy stuff there and whenever I need to have a bike built up, I pay them to do it. My wife rides a lot too and I'm tasked with taking care of her bikes as well.


----------



## greatscott (Jan 31, 2019)

I have friends who bought bikes from bike shops with those free tuneups for life type of deals and some had them for the first year only, but regardless I took my friend and her bike to shop to have her free tuneup done and it took the mechanic all but 5 minutes to do, so what's the shop really out? Another time she went in there and it took I think 15 minutes and charged her for a chain and cables which I thought neither were done for yet but the mechanic convinced her she needed that done every year, but it cost my friend money because she chose to do the recommended repairs even though I tried to tell her it wasn't necessary, but it was her bike not mine. So I think too that those free services don't turn out so free, it's just a way to get you in the door and try to replace something. So I'm not a fan of free tuneups, I can take it or leave it, it's not a selling point to me.


----------

