# Beware: ti hardware and 3T stems



## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

Just a word of caution: I was putting on a new 3T ARX Team stem and the heads on two ti bolts snapped off well before the torque wrench reached 5nm. I'm glad that didn't occur while riding. The ease at which the heads snapped scared the [email protected] out of me. I replaced those ti parts with steel ones from a 3T ARX Pro stem. I had only bought the stem for the color and didn't realize the bolts were titanium until I checked the package listing.

I did a quick Google search and read that it has happened to others with 3T stems - cheap ti hardware. I'm going to replace the hardware on my other ARX Team stem with stainless steel bolts.

Just wanted to give folks a heads up and note that it's best to keep your weight weenie-ness in check.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

veloduffer said:


> I'm going to replace the hardware on my other ARX Team stem with stainless steel bolts.
> 
> .


Stainless is not a good alternative either. Regular steel bolts are much stronger and no weight penalty when considering stainless.


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

Proper torque specs are usually based on the strength of the hardware, which in turn is matched to the application by the company who makes the product.

Changing the material of the hardware requires an adjustment in tightening torque to prevent failure like the OPs. But that may lead to inadequate holding power on the clamp. To properly substitute Ti hardware for steel, you'd have to use a larger bolt to maintain the same strength. That would mean re-engineering the part completely.


----------



## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

FBinNY said:


> Proper torque specs are usually based on the strength of the hardware, which in turn is matched to the application by the company who makes the product.
> 
> Changing the material of the hardware requires an adjustment in tightening torque to prevent failure like the OPs. But that may lead to inadequate holding power on the clamp. To properly substitute Ti hardware for steel, you'd have to use a larger bolt to maintain the same strength. That would mean re-engineering the part completely.


Not really, those torque specs exist to avoid snapping the handlebar, not damaging the stem. If you look carefully, the same torque spec range is given for all stems and in all different materials used bar a few exceptions : between 4.5 to 6nm. 

A bolt failing is not a big problem. At least less than snapping the handlebars. That's the reason they sell stems with buttery aluminium or titanium bolts : it avoids people overtorquing them.


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

As you point out, the torque spec *starts* with the engineers determining the target clamping force,.

Then the suitable hardware is chosen. Since we're in a weight driven industry, that hardware is generally selected to be the lightest (weakest) hardware adequate to the task. This is also good engineering practice, because screw fasteners are least likely to vibrate loose if they're elongated slightly when tightened to spec,. Another benefit to not using overly strong screws is that act sort of like a fuse, breaking if over torqued before the more expensive parts they're holding. 

Once the right hardware is selected the tension needed to achieve the desired clamping force is translated to a torque value based on the thread's helix angle, and allowing for thread friction. That's the final torque.

But it's at the end of a chain of calculations, and changing any of the elements in that chain changes things entirely.

It's no big deal if a screw breaks while being tightened, unless it breaks flush in an expensive part. But it could be a big deal if hardware of insufficient strength is substituted and used in any assembly and breaks in use. Ask anyone who works on aircraft about how serious they are about using the EXACT spec. screws, and their concerns about the issue of counterfeit screws that don't match the spec. they're marked as.

So you're right, torque isn't about the screw, it's about the clamp, but since it's the screw that provides that clamping force it's about the screw after all.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

T0mi said:


> Not really, those torque specs exist to avoid snapping the handlebar, not damaging the stem.


You misunderstand the concept of torque, which is a unit of _rotationa_l force. With fasteners, torque is used to indicate to which point a fastener should be tightened, i.e., how much it should be stretched.

Stems put a clamping force on a handlebar, not torque. The stem manufacturer generally doesn't know and would never hazard a guess as to what a safe clamping force would be for a _particular_ handlebar.

Edit: I see now that FBinNY explained it better than I could.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

T0mi said:


> Not really, those torque specs exist to avoid snapping the handlebar, not damaging the stem. If you look carefully, the same torque spec range is given for all stems and in all different materials used bar a few exceptions : between 4.5 to 6nm.
> 
> A bolt failing is not a big problem. At least less than snapping the handlebars. That's the reason they sell stems with buttery aluminium or titanium bolts : it avoids people overtorquing them.


Whole lot of misinformation here.

FB said it right the first time. No need to go over it again.


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

OP, did you happen to lubricate the threads with either grease or anti-sieze? Either of those could cause a joint to be over-torqued.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

FWIW, I have a 3T stem with Ti screws. I've heard this warning before and been concerned as I remove and reinstall my bars on occasion for airline travel. I always use a Ritchey 5nm torque key or a click type torque wrench and have not yet had a problem. I have had FSA stems with Ti screws and had no issues with them either. I guess it's possible that 3T has a batch of defective screws out there. It may not make any difference but I do take care to tighten the screws incrementally. I do use Ti-prep on the threads.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Ti bolts on stems are unecessarily stupid. Save weight somewhere else.


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

GirchyGirchy said:


> OP, did you happen to lubricate the threads with either grease or anti-sieze? Either of those could cause a joint to be over-torqued.


This misses the point, and is one of the reasons, I'm not a fan of mindlessly using a torque wrench and following a spec without knowing the implications.

Generally all torque specs for screw fasteners are "wet" meaning correct for lubricated threads. This is because it's standard practice to lubricate a thread. If a spec is for dry threads, it's incumbent on the published spec. to make that clear.

The OPs breakage of a Ti screw is predictable. The assembly called for a screw of a given strength. He substituted a same size screw of weaker material, resulting in a screw of significantly less strength, and it (predictably) failed. Fortunately it failed on assembly and not while riding.

By analogy, If you were lifting an elevator with 2 1/2" steel cables, would you feel safe using only one, or maybe 2 1/2" cotton ropes?


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Stems usually require narrow head bolts, which is not an ideal application for Ti. That being said, a lot of my Ritchey stems came with Ti bolts and I haven't snapped any of them yet.


----------



## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

FBinNY said:


> This misses the point, and is one of the reasons, I'm not a fan of mindlessly using a torque wrench and following a spec without knowing the implications.
> 
> Generally all torque specs for screw fasteners are "wet" meaning correct for lubricated threads. This is because it's standard practice to lubricate a thread. If a spec is for dry threads, it's incumbent on the published spec. to make that clear.
> 
> ...


The hardware is the original with the stem, not a substitute (by me). 3T uses ti bolts on the ARX Team stems vs steel in the ARX Pro. The bolts are exactly the same size and length, and they come with anti-seize prep.

My concern was that the heads snapped off well before they were fully tightened (to torque spec). Being a force/weight bearing contact point and more importantly on a control function, it almost seems to be negligent on 3T's part.

I figured it was worth warning others from a potentially catastrophic event.:yesnod:


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Not lubricating the bolts/threads seems like a really bad idea considering the Ti is going into Aluminum. I use anti-seize on all Ti bolts to avoid galling.


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

veloduffer said:


> The hardware is the original with the stem, not a substitute (by me). 3T uses ti bolts on the ARX Team stems vs steel in the ARX Pro. The bolts are exactly the same size and length, and they come with anti-seize prep.
> 
> My concern was that the heads snapped off well before they were fully tightened (to torque spec). Being a force/weight bearing contact point and more importantly on a control function, it almost seems to be negligent on 3T's part.


That's a horse of a different color. I'm curious, does 3t publish a different torque spec for the steel and Ti hardware?. On the one hand if the spec is low enough for Ti to be OK, then it's OK for both, but if the spec was designed around steel hardware, than Ti might be inadequate to the task. 

As I said, I'm not a fan of blindly following torque specs, partly because I don't trust the sources. I've spoken to too many professional mechanics who've found, like you, some parts break below the max torque, and others won't hold properly unless you exceed max torque.

When assembling things like posts or stems I always try to use the minimum tightness that does the job (with a reserve). On superlight stuff, I use my lapping compound trick to improve the hold and lower the needed clamping force to buy myself a bigger margin of safety.


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

FBinNY said:


> Generally all torque specs for screw fasteners are "wet" meaning correct for lubricated threads. This is because it's standard practice to lubricate a thread. If a spec is for dry threads, it's incumbent on the published spec. to make that clear.


If you switch out your 'wet' and 'dry' terms in that statement, you will end up being correct. Sorry, but standard industrial torque specs are dry. If they are given for lubricated threads, then the lubricant is specified.

Who knows what bicycle manufacturers provide though, since they never state one or the other. Often it just doesn't matter because there are so many other variables....fastener material, thread quality, fastener coating, surface finish between the fastener and whatever it's threading into, etc.


----------



## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

It maybe cheap Ti bolts.. Torque specs is good and all but I think ensuring all loads and torque are distributed evenly is the key.
I found smearing some grease on the back of the bolthead helps all the bolts turn evenly. I also use a thin hex key or anything with a even thickness to check the gap all around the face plate before I start.

One problem I have ran into when the face plate was not evenly distributed, this means the bolt heads dig into the plate at an angle and it will either sheer the plate or the bolt. Yes, speaking from experience.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

PoorCyclist said:


> It maybe cheap Ti bolts..


Perhaps, perhaps not. But none of that alters the fact that if you have two bolts of the same diameter with one made of Ti and the other made of steel, the Ti bolt will be the significantly weaker one. As FBinNY pointed out, if you substitute a Ti bolt for a for steel bolt, you need to spec a larger-diameter bolt and redesign the component to accept that larger-diameter bolt. Hardly anyone in the bike business does that, so Ti bike stuff simply breaks easier than steel bike stuff.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

GirchyGirchy said:


> ...Sorry, but standard industrial torque specs are dry. If they are given for lubricated threads, then the lubricant is specified.


This is true in my experience in motorcycles, aircraft and other manufacturing situations. In the case of stems, Ritchey calls out for "greasing the threads" in their stem manual and FSA calls out for using "Ti-Prep". 3T offers no such instruction, though the torque spec and screw sizes, and general screw materials are the same as for FSA and Ritchey stems.


----------



## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

I popped a 3T ARX Team ti bolt as well. Only replaced the steerer bolts with steel as it's what I've got on hand and that's where it happened. Handlebar clamp section was never a problem, probably because clamping torque is distributed among 4 bolts as opposed to 2.

On the otherhand, I never popped a Zipp SC SL Ti bolt, which uses a torx head. Instead, I'm nearly stripping the head.


----------



## Hanna (Dec 14, 2011)

I purchased a 3t stem with ti bolts new online. Installed with a Spin Doctor click type torque wrench to spec and a bolt snapped. There are a lot of variables here. Defective screw? Wrong torque specs.? Defective torque wrench? Error somehow on my part? 

The bolts are fragile that we know. 3t basically told me to pound sand and the online retailer decided to make me jump through hoops with shipping the stem and still no guarantee they would warranty it. I just asked them to ship me 1 bolt and they declined.

I found a bolt in my parts bin and used it. 3t can keep the bolt.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

trailrunner68 said:


> Ti bolts on stems are unecessarily stupid. Save weight somewhere else.


It's about sweat and corrosion for me. With trainer time and all these killer mtns around here, I drip a lot


----------



## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

PoorCyclist said:


> It maybe cheap Ti bolts.. Torque specs is good and all but I think ensuring all loads and torque are distributed evenly is the key.
> I found smearing some grease on the back of the bolthead helps all the bolts turn evenly. I also use a thin hex key or anything with a even thickness to check the gap all around the face plate before I start.
> 
> One problem I have ran into when the face plate was not evenly distributed, this means the bolt heads dig into the plate at an angle and it will either sheer the plate or the bolt. Yes, speaking from experience.


Just to add another detail, I did distribute the force evenly by making 1 to 1.5 turns on each bolt and moving in a cross pattern, like you would tightening lug nuts on an auto wheel.


----------



## hamsey (Aug 16, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> It's about sweat and corrosion for me. With trainer time and all these killer mtns around here, I drip a lot


My steel stem bolts are rusting. I ordered Ti bolts to replace the steel ones. Thinking otherwise after reading this thread.

Any alternative to rusting steel bolts?


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

hamsey said:


> Any alternative to rusting steel bolts?


Just get some new zinc-plated steel bolts.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Second Girchy's advice. Stainless and Ti is weaker and costs more, so forget it.

FWIW: If the rust is only inside the hex head recess, just clean it out and don't bother with new bolts. It might just be from the tightening tool, anyway.


----------



## sadisticnoob (Dec 6, 2009)

yea i broke 1 ti bolt last year 

3t stem 

swapped to a new longer ti bolt (presumably better) and nothing happen ever since


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

sadisticnoob said:


> swapped to a new longer ti bolt (presumably better) and nothing happen ever since


Good luck with that.


----------



## reptilezs (Aug 21, 2007)

the ti bolts on 3t stems break all the time. pure ****


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

GirchyGirchy said:


> Just get some new zinc-plated steel bolts.


What grade?


----------



## hamsey (Aug 16, 2010)

Can't seem to find the dome head. I can find socket heads in 5mmx18mm. I ordered some FSA Ti bolts. Should I not install them? Rust is inside the socket head and on between the washer.


----------



## sadisticnoob (Dec 6, 2009)

i din noe Ti can rust.


I used Stainless steel bolts for my bottle cages so far so good


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

sadisticnoob said:


> I used Stainless steel bolts for my bottle cages so far so good


Those are fine for bottle cages, but we're talking about stems! Stainless is not as strong as a good zinc-plated steel capscrew. Rust is the least of anyone's worries.


----------



## 2cflyr (Apr 9, 2002)

sadisticnoob said:


> i din noe Ti can rust.
> 
> 
> I used Stainless steel bolts for my bottle cages so far so good


don't all metals oxidize? it isn't the red/brown "rust" like you'd know on iron/steel, but the grey haze that ti can get is considered a form of oxide.


----------



## sadisticnoob (Dec 6, 2009)

2cflyr said:


> don't all metals oxidize? it isn't the red/brown "rust" like you'd know on iron/steel, but the grey haze that ti can get is considered a form of oxide.


i thot Ti was chosen because it has 


wikipedia said:


> Due to their high tensile strength to density ratio,[7] high corrosion resistance,[3] fatigue resistance, high crack resistance,[53] and ability to withstand moderately high temperatures without creeping


I mean if Ti alloys are used in aircraft i dun see how my tiny bolts cant withstand 5nm. 


GirchyGirchy said:


> Those are fine for bottle cages, but we're talking about stems! Stainless is not as strong as a good zinc-plated steel capscrew. Rust is the least of anyone's worries.


how come stainless steel is not as good as zinc plated screw?

zinc plating is known as galvanizing which "sacrifice" the zinc to rust instead of the inner steel or iron to rust 

as opposed to stainless steel which is iron mixed with other metal to form a protective oxide coating


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

sadisticnoob said:


> i thot Ti was chosen because it has
> 
> I mean if Ti alloys are used in aircraft i dun see how my tiny bolts cant withstand 5nm.
> 
> ...


It isn't whether a material* can *be used, but how it's used. Titanium is stronger than steel pound for pound which makes it well suited for aircraft. 

*BUT* it's much weaker than steel by volume. So an equally strong titanium part will be lighter than it's steel counterpart, but also bigger. So there's no reason that a stem can't use titanium hardware, but you'd have to replace the 5mm screw with, say. a 6mm, or maybe even larger, screw to match the strength.

By analogy, imagine replacing a steel tow cable with a polyester rope, No problem but the rope will have to be fatter than the steel cable is.


----------



## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

hamsey said:


> My steel stem bolts are rusting. I ordered Ti bolts to replace the steel ones. Thinking otherwise after reading this thread.
> 
> Any alternative to rusting steel bolts?


I own 7 bikes and have been using Ti bolts since 1992, because I rust everything, I have never used a torque wrench and I've never broken a bolt, crushed a frame or broke a part. 

Almost everytime I hear about something braking it is when someone is using a torque wrench.


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

raymonda said:


> I own 7 bikes and have been using Ti bolts since 1992, because I rust everything, I have never used a torque wrench and I've never broken a bolt, crushed a frame or broke a part.
> 
> Almost everytime I hear about something braking it is when someone is using a torque wrench.


Of course you've been using a torque wrench, but don't think about it. Turn wrenches enough and you develop what I call calibrated fingers. You feel the torque ramp up, and have the experience to know when to stop for any size screw. 

Like you I find that those who blindly turn bolts to spec with a torque wrench, tend to break more bolts than folks who read the bolt with their fingers. 

I liken this to painting painting by numbers vs. making art.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

FBinNY said:


> Of course you've been using a torque wrench, but don't think about it. Turn wrenches enough and you develop what I call calibrated fingers. You feel the torque ramp up, and have the experience to know when to stop for any size screw.
> 
> Like you I find that those who blindly turn bolts to spec with a torque wrench, tend to break more bolts than folks who read the bolt with their fingers.
> 
> I liken this to painting painting by numbers vs. making art.


Can you explain to me how you calibrate your fingers to deliver 4.5 Nm or 6.2 Nm and 13.6 Nm or 14.8 Nm? I can't believe you are actually advising people not to use a precision instrument like a torque wrench and rather rely on reading the bolt with their fingers?
How many hundreds/thousands of bolts one must shear before this magic finger calibration happens? How do you know you are not under tightening bolts? Just because you are not shearing the head off the bolt, it does not mean you are properly tightening the bolt.
Go buy yourself a good quality torque wrench like Park or Spin Doctor, read your owners manual and use that gooey thing behind your eyes


----------



## arkitect (Apr 25, 2011)

Ummmm, guess what happened to my ti bolts tonight in my 3T ARX team stem? I bought a new Park Tool torque wrench as I adjusted my stem recently and was worried about over tightening them. Can you guess what comes next????

Not only did I snap one bolt before it got tight, I figured it must have been a fluke.....so I went to a SECOND bolt on the stem and snapped it too!!!

&&@$!!!!! I was able to remove both of the bolts after an hour of drilling, etc. Keep in mind it was 10:30 pm when this happened so I freaked out! Tomorrow I go to the hardware store to find steel bolts to trade these out for. 

I haven't dealt with carbon bars and Ti bolts too much so thought I was being responsible by buying a torque wrench......


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I have to ask if you know how to use a torque wrench. I have various types and sizes and found that the ratchet type may get stuck if you rotate them too slow. When you apply force with a quick brisk motion then the mechanism breaks (clicks) when it reaches the dial setting.


----------



## Elpimpo (Jan 16, 2012)

Hanna said:


> 3t basically told me to pound sand and the online retailer decided to make me jump through hoops with shipping the stem and still no guarantee they would warranty it. I just asked them to ship me 1 bolt and they declined. I found a bolt in my parts bin and used it. 3t can keep the bolt.


Damn, If 3T won't stand by their product, I'm not messing with them.

This is discerning, and to be honest filthy way to do business.

Ive gotten parts replaced from lesser manufacturers without hassle.

They won't give you ONE bolt. wonder what happens when those $900 aerobars have a problem.


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

2cflyr said:


> don't all metals oxidize? it isn't the red/brown "rust" like you'd know on iron/steel, but the grey haze that ti can get is considered a form of oxide.


Indeed. Also I've seen galvanic corrosion on Ti. Mushy stuff.


----------



## cocomo (Apr 13, 2011)

Torque spec is like a speed limit. It is a max, not a target.


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

I give up.


----------



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I think the problems could be not quite the torque but how do you tighten the screws

do you tight them evenly ( so a bit of each one in a crossed X shape ) ?

if you have overtightened one of them then the other will go inside skewed and not straight and that could lead to breakage.


----------



## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

dcgriz said:


> Can you explain to me how you calibrate your fingers to deliver 4.5 Nm or 6.2 Nm and 13.6 Nm or 14.8 Nm? I can't believe you are actually advising people not to use a precision instrument like a torque wrench and rather rely on reading the bolt with their fingers?
> How many hundreds/thousands of bolts one must shear before this magic finger calibration happens? How do you know you are not under tightening bolts? Just because you are not shearing the head off the bolt, it does not mean you are properly tightening the bolt.
> Go buy yourself a good quality torque wrench like Park or Spin Doctor, read your owners manual and use that gooey thing behind your eyes


I can't speak for the FBinNY but rather for myself. When I started with bikes no one used a torque wrench. You could go into any shop or pit at a race and not one mechanic had a torque wrench. Everything was done by feel and checking for security. 

It is only recently that torque wrenches have come into popularity. Still, many mechanics don't use them and shops I respect the most don't use them. It doesn't mean I would respect them less if they did. My respect for them has nothing to do with the wrench they use.

I'm not recommending anyone to do otherwise, but rather reflecting on my experience with steel, aluminum, Ti and carbon. I just don't find a need for a torque wrench and after thousands of hours working on bikes I have never had a problem with tighting a bolt, breaking a carbon tube or crushing aluminum.

I do often read here about people crushing their carbon and breaking bolts when they use torque wrenches. Does that mean that more people are breaking things when using a TW, maybe not, but rather get frustrated when they break things using a tool that is suppose to prevent breakage. Who knows?

In general, I am just commenting on my observations and experience with such things.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

raymonda said:


> I can't speak for the FBinNY but rather for myself. When I started with bikes no one used a torque wrench. You could go into any shop or pit at a race and not one mechanic had a torque wrench. Everything was done by feel and checking for security.
> 
> It is only recently that torque wrenches have come into popularity. Still, many mechanics don't use them and shops I respect the most don't use them. It doesn't mean I would respect them less if they did. My respect for them has nothing to do with the wrench they use.
> 
> ...


I have been recreationally working on engines all my life. Back in the days of steel block we did not use torque wrenches for various reasons, cost and accuracy being on top.
Then aluminum blocks came into place and with them flimsier bolts and things started breaking more redily than before. Then we started using torque wrenches and paid much more attention to applied torque overall.
Same thing happened with the introduction of carbon for bike frames, seat posts, bars etc. 
We also found that you can "fool" a torque wrench if you do not use it proporely, especially if its a bar type.
My only point in all of this discussion is the tool is available to be used and should not be blamed for operator error that may be from improper usage, storage, calibration, etc.


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

dcgriz said:


> Can you explain to me how you calibrate your fingers to deliver 4.5 Nm or 6.2 Nm and 13.6 Nm or 14.8 Nm? I can't believe you are actually advising people not to use a precision instrument like a torque wrench and rather rely on reading the bolt with their fingers?
> How many hundreds/thousands of bolts one must shear before this magic finger calibration happens? How do you know you are not under tightening bolts? Just because you are not shearing the head off the bolt, it does not mean you are properly tightening the bolt.
> Go buy yourself a good quality torque wrench like Park or Spin Doctor, read your owners manual and use that gooey thing behind your eyes


Of course, I can't calibrate my fingers to sense precisely 4.5N]Nm or any other precise value, and in all likelihood your torque wrench can't either. But that isn't the point.

Torque on a fastener isn't the end goal, it's just a means to reach it, but not the only means. The end goal is (in this case) a clamped bar that doesn't slip, and a fastener tightened to elongate enough to prevent loosening by vibration. If the part is properly designed both will happen together, with a margin for error. If the screws are under spec.d the screw will snap before the bar is tight, and if over spec. you won't be able the second goal.

Assuming the part is engineered correctly, you can feel the proper torque not as a precise fixed value, but by how it changes as you tighten. The screw will free spin at first, then begin to resist as it brings the parts together and loads them, as you near the end, the rate at which resists will increase sharply as the parts bottom and the screw stretches. It's in this area that the proper torque is felt and you stop turning. 

If the part slips, you don't go back and break the screw, but look for ways to improve the grip at lower clamping force. You might use lapping compound or carbon paste as a grip aid, or switch to stronger fasteners.

There seems to be an attitude these days (especially on this forum) that it's the tools that make the mechanic. But that isn't the case. It's skill and experience that make a good mechanic, and better tools might make the job easier or faster, but are not a substitute for that skill. 

Those who blindly rely on torque wrenches rather than learn to read the bolts they're wrenching will continue to break hardware while experienced mechanics won't, torque wrench or no. Speak to any professional mechanic in this industry and he'll tell you how often he overrides the torque wrench using his brain and gingers to do the job properly.

BTW- in 45 years of using and making tools for bicycles I can count on one hand the number of screws I've broken.


----------



## arkitect (Apr 25, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> I have to ask if you know how to use a torque wrench. I have various types and sizes and found that the ratchet type may get stuck if you rotate them too slow. When you apply force with a quick brisk motion then the mechanism breaks (clicks) when it reaches the dial setting.


I believe I do. I have more experience with higher torque bolts so I was a little concerned about over tightening the titanium stem bolts, thus my purchase. I used anti-seize and backed out the bolts before I started to torque. I still had problems. I even viewed Park's video for their wrench to see if their wrench was any different from other torque wrenches I used Park Tool Co. » TW-5 : Ratcheting

To use a torque wrench, or not to use one, that is one of the many questions cyclists must answer  Everyone is entitled to their opinions and that is why this forum is so informative (and humorous).

Scott

PS - I purchased steel replacement bolts this morning and will install them tonight, seems silly to save a few grams on these 6 bolts.


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

FBinNY said:


> Those who blindly rely on torque wrenches rather than learn to read the bolts they're wrenching will continue to break hardware while experienced mechanics won't, torque wrench or no. Speak to any professional mechanic in this industry and he'll tell you how often he overrides the torque wrench using his brain and gingers to do the job properly.
> 
> BTW- in 45 years of using and making tools for bicycles I can count on one hand the number of screws I've broken.


That may be true, but IMO, if you have to override the torque specs then one of the following is true:

1) The torque specs are incorrect (which honestly sounds like the 3T problem)
2) Something related to the joint and fastener is wrong - incorrect/poor coating on the fastener, fastener hardness not to spec, burrs in the threads, flange on the fastener damaged, mating surface on the part damaged, threads incorrectly lubed/not lubed, threads out of spec - could be any number of things.

Given good parts and specs, torque values should be good enough to reliably and repeatably produce the desired amount of clamp load. If they're being overridden, something else is wrong.


----------



## hamsey (Aug 16, 2010)

Well after reading this thread I switched the 3T components to FSA. Talked to my LBS and they never heard of a Ti bolt snapping. 3T did not have an item in stock until the end of April so it was an easy decision.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

arkitect said:


> I believe I do. I have more experience with higher torque bolts so I was a little concerned about over tightening the titanium stem bolts, thus my purchase. I used anti-seize and backed out the bolts before I started to torque. I still had problems. I even viewed Park's video for their wrench to see if their wrench was any different from other torque wrenches I used Park Tool Co. » TW-5 : Ratcheting
> 
> To use a torque wrench, or not to use one, that is one of the many questions cyclists must answer  Everyone is entitled to their opinions and that is why this forum is so informative (and humorous).
> 
> ...


Although, the anti-seize acts as a lubricant and effectivelly results to more torque applied to the bolt, I dont believe that on its own is enough to shear the bolt if everything else is fine. 
For example, the stem to steerer bolts typically show a torque range from 4.2 Nm to 6 Nm printed right on the foot of the stem. Most people tighten them to 5 NM. Unless your torque wrench is grossly out of calibration you should have enough fudge factor to keep the bolt in one piece.
One thing I have noticed with the light duty ratching torque wrenches is that sometimes they get stuck and do not disengage. What I do to waken them up is set them up for a few NM less than the setting I need and go over twice. If I do a seat post at 6.2 NM, I torque it first at 4 NM, I hear it click and then finish off at 6.2 NM.
There have been instances where it did not disengage and had to further reduce the setting. I dont know what is causing this but my guess is infrequent use, drying of the lubricant inside, storing at tension and overall low quality.
I wonder if this is what most people here who have problems with these things are experiencing.
Nevertheless, considering all the bolts that embarassingly have managed to liberate themselves from me over the years, I will continue with my torque wrenches and I will respect you no less if you throw yours away.
BTW, totally agree that the 0.2 grams worth of weight savings do not justify all this hassle.
Cheers


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

GirchyGirchy said:


> That may be true, but IMO, if you have to override the torque specs then one of the following is true:
> 
> 1) The torque specs are incorrect (which honestly sounds like the 3T problem)
> 2) Something related to the joint and fastener is wrong - incorrect/poor coating on the fastener, fastener hardness not to spec, burrs in the threads, flange on the fastener damaged, mating surface on the part damaged, threads incorrectly lubed/not lubed, threads out of spec - could be any number of things.
> ...


*I agree*, add to your list, torque wrenches out of calibration, or used incorrectly. Or hardware lubed or dry when the torque spec is for the opposite, or any number of other variables. If all is right with the world, doing it by the numbers will work fine, but in my experience that's a big if, and not something I like to rely on.

Don't misunderstand me. i don't have a problem with using torque wrenches, or going by torque specs. My problem is the notion that a tool and a spec, are a substitute for mechanic skill. In some cases it can be, and many aspects of bike assembly can be done perfectly via "paint by numbers" techniques. But that doesn't provide for all the possible things that can go wrong.


----------



## Hanna (Dec 14, 2011)

hamsey said:


> Well after reading this thread I switched the 3T components to FSA. Talked to my LBS and they never heard of a Ti bolt snapping. 3T did not have an item in stock until the end of April so it was an easy decision.


I have some carbon square taper FSA cranks from 1999 on my mountain bike. That bike has seen more hard miles/crashes/weather/rocks than I can remember. They have been removed and remounted many times to change out bottom brackets over and over without a torque wrench. They have never creaked or loosen. They have some serious battle scars on them. And to this day they are bulletproof.

Sadly I don't feel 3t can make a product this durable. And my experience proves they will not back you up when something even minor happens. I regret coming in late on this thread. The forum did you a service.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

FBinNY said:


> Don't misunderstand me. i don't have a problem with using torque wrenches, or going by torque specs. My problem is the notion that a tool and a spec, are a substitute for mechanic skill. In some cases it can be, and many aspects of bike assembly can be done perfectly via "paint by numbers" techniques. But that doesn't provide for all the possible things that can go wrong.


I don't think any of the previous posts on this thread made a claim that a tool, any tool, is an even substitute for mechanic's skills. We have been challenging the notion that the so called calibrated fingers are an even substitute for torque wrenches and possibly arguing that although it may be a very small part of being a good mechanic it sets the stage for one's attention to details.

I do believe that use of proper tools will help good mechanics become better mechanics. I also believe that statements denouncing the manufacturers suggested precision in the specification of components do not enhance ones mechanical skills; on the contrary, they diminish them. 

Cheers


----------



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

All that had me thinking.

For many years I worked on bikes without a torque wrench, never broke anything nor had parts underadjusted, it was all made by feel.

When I bought the torque wrench I was surprised to see how all my bolts seemed to be undertorqued I could tighten then a lot more before the click.

Notice what I said before " I never had under adjusted bolts problems before"

Since I have the wrench I don't need to "feel" the bolt anymore. I just set the value and turn until it clicks.

I realise that I could be over tightening everything unnecessarily because I just now trust the wrench.

What if the wrench is calibrated wrong? I could be doing everything wrong indeed.


----------



## wayne (Aug 3, 2006)

*Another Victim*

Had my 3t stem on one bike but decided to use it on another. Made it to 4.5nm using Park torque wrench when the stem bolt for steered tube side snapped. Where can I order replacement (Steel) bolts? Seems to be 1 shot deal with ti.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

dcgriz said:


> Although, the anti-seize acts as a lubricant and effectivelly results to more torque applied to the bolt,


No. The screw basically experiences the same torque whether it's lubricated or not. What is different is that the lubricated screw will experience a higher tension at a given torque.


----------



## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

dcgriz said:


> Can you explain to me how you calibrate your fingers to deliver 4.5 Nm or 6.2 Nm and 13.6 Nm or 14.8 Nm? I can't believe you are actually advising people not to use a precision instrument like a torque wrench and rather rely on reading the bolt with their fingers?
> How many hundreds/thousands of bolts one must shear before this magic finger calibration happens? How do you know you are not under tightening bolts? Just because you are not shearing the head off the bolt, it does not mean you are properly tightening the bolt.
> Go buy yourself a good quality torque wrench like Park or Spin Doctor, read your owners manual and use that gooey thing behind your eyes


I have a very nice TW and I use it all the time. I stopped on handlebars when I cracked a carbon pair, following the specs on the bar and the stem. Now I go by a two finger feel and never tore/stripped a ti bolt or cracked bars.

Every bolt on my bike is now Ti or aluminum with ZERO issues. I had issues with Extralite's 2mm ti bolts and the head rounding out. They acknowledged that Ti was too soft and increased the bolt size.

I have installed 10-15 3T stems with ti bolts on my bikes or others with zero issues.


----------



## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

looigi said:


> No. The screw basically experiences the same torque whether it's lubricated or not. What is different is that the lubricated screw will experience a higher tension at a given torque.


The point I am trying to pass along here is that if you are installing a fastener that has a dry torque spec ( like the stem - bar clamp) and you coat the bolt threads with a lubricant (anti-seize), you will need to decrease the specified torque (usually between 15% to 25%, 50% for teflon based lubes) because the slippery surfaces reduce friction. If you do not adjust for that, you could severely over tighten the bolt and if your wrench also happens to be out of calibration you could even shear the bolt off. Torquing plated bolts at settings for non plated bolts will also tend to over tighten them by a factor of 15-25% as the plating acts as a lubricant. On the other hand, burrs in the thread will result to the opposite.

So, my two bits, for anybody interested, are if you decide to use a precision instrument like a torque wrench, spend the time to know your tool, buy good quality (hint: $35 torque wrench typically is not good quality, $80 is average quality, $200 is very good quality), do not use it as a regular wrench (i.e loosening bolts), check the calibration occasionally and store it with the tension removed in its case. If you do that and you understand the basics about tightening bolts ( which is not much; see first paragraph), then chances are you have sheared off your last bolt.

Cheers 🍻


----------



## arkitect (Apr 25, 2011)

Lowes has (2) m5 x 16mm steel bolts for 80 cents.


----------



## Jaybo (Mar 5, 2002)

Why bother with ti hardware?


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Won't clamping force change at the same torque depending on whether the bolt has been used before? I think I remember reading that somewhere.

It seems like there are a lot of things that cause the clamping force to vary even when the same torque is applied.


----------



## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

As much as I've seen, most recommended torque values are suggested *maximum*. You don't have to go as high as that number, and I rarely do.



Salsa_Lover said:


> All that had me thinking.
> 
> For many years I worked on bikes without a torque wrench, never broke anything nor had parts underadjusted, it was all made by feel.
> 
> ...


----------



## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> Won't clamping force change at the same torque depending on whether the bolt has been used before? I think I remember reading that somewhere.
> .


Maybe, but not significantly, all other things being equal. 

The relationship between the force applied under the head (screw tension) and the torque depends on the helix angle of the thread and the turning friction, which is why wet and dry torque are different. The condition of the thread surface also affects friction, as would any distortion, but in the real world these changes are very small, and shouldn't affect things beyond the normal tolerance.

And yes, there are lots of things that can affect the relationship between torque and clamping force, but the biggest variables are lubrication, and thread condition. Also don't forget that friction is different between static (some call this sticktion) and sliding, which is why you need to come to the final torque in one continuous movement. If you stop just shy of the desired torque, you won't be able to tighten any more without exceeding the spec to break the screw loose.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

I found the article I remember reading.

Whatever: Torque Wrenches and Bicycles


----------



## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

So I've had a couple stems with ti bolts some with blue loctite on them. anyone know how that would affect the recommended torque?


----------



## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

I think that blue stuff may not be locktite. It may be a anti-seaze. 

I snapped ti bolts on a new FSA stem this weekend and had used a Ritchey 5nm tool to install. I think the bolts must be bad, maybe counterfit or lack of quality control by FSA.


----------



## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

YB1 said:


> I think that blue stuff may not be locktite. It may be a anti-seaze.
> 
> I snapped ti bolts on a new FSA stem this weekend and had used a Ritchey 5nm tool to install. I think the bolts must be bad, maybe counterfit or lack of quality control by FSA.


Never seen an anti-seize in blue. But blue loctite is very common and common to use on bike threads.

I don't think the Ritchey keys are very accurate. You're better off with the CDI (Snap-on) versions. Tested 5 times with test results of each key on the package.


----------



## Rex Chan (Apr 7, 2012)

Hey guys! First post (new to road bikes), but have dealt with torque wrenches/Japanese motorcycle engines (CBR600RR) for the last 3 years (Formula SAE - undergrad engineering design competition). We use the deflecting beam type torque wrench (Warren & Brown brand). I see that Park Tool make some like this (TW-1). We use them because that's what we have access to, but I like them because I believe the claims that they are more accurate/repeatable because they rely only on a non-moving parts (beam elastically deforms each time). Thus, that is the type of torque wrench I would use.

To the people who say torque values are a maximum: that is very wrong. PLease read the other posts that explain that a torque value is *specified* to give a certain clamping force. Any less, and you're not gripping the parts enough (according to the engineer who did the calcs). 

Trailrunner: (This is what I understand) If a bolt has been stretched past it's elastic limit, it will undergo permanent plastic deformation. Sometimes a torque is specified that causes the bolt to go into this on purpose (engine head bolts). I think it has something to do with being more consistent once in the plastic region, but not really sure about that. Ah yes, now that I think abut it - once a metal starts to yield (well into plastic region), it won't support any more (clamping) force.

Not sure if the above helps - does seem like a lot of broken Ti M5 bolts in here... (We do up M6 bolts to 12Nm - I'm sure a bit of Googling can find what a "normal" M5 bolt can take)


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

We use a lot of 3T stems because we do so many fittings - the Ti bolts are unreliable in the hands of pros using torque wrenches - we've broken enough that we stopped stocking that model. We've even had two bolts break at the same time while tightening one of them. This is not a technique issue - the 3T Ti bolts are not strong enough for the design.

Ti does not galvanically corrode. It does gall. 

The argument over torque vs. clamping force is ridiculous. 5nM torque keys came out when carbon steerers and carbon bars showed up. While it is a hardware rating, the application is there to spare the parts being clamped as there is no method to directly measure clamping force. I can't believe some of you guys argued about this for several pages - hardware failure was never the issue.


----------



## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

Rex Chan said:


> To the people who say torque values are a maximum: that is very wrong.


Then why do they often specify quite clearly - *"maximum torque"* on the part itself?


----------



## Rex Chan (Apr 7, 2012)

Marathon Marke: I do not know. I suspect it is because torque values above the "max" should result in part breakage (or stripped threads in my case - steel bolts in alum threads). Torque values below most likely result in things slipping, which is also a "failure", but less obvious (in engines, most likely result would be things coming loose over time). As many people have stated, the point is to get a certain clamping force - too much will break something, too little, and it won't do the job. Not sure why the confusion.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Rex Chan said:


> Marathon Marke: I do not know. I suspect it is because torque values above the "max" should result in part breakage (or stripped threads in my case - steel bolts in alum threads). Torque values below most likely result in things slipping, which is also a "failure", but less obvious (in engines, most likely result would be things coming loose over time). As many people have stated, the point is to get a certain clamping force - too much will break something, too little, and it won't do the job. Not sure why the confusion.


Again, I'm going to disagree.

In the cycling industry, torque values are almost always stated as a range or given as a single number that is a maximum. If you exceed that range or the single number all bets are off.

You should use whatever torque is sufficient to hold the bike part in place without damaging it.

People like to compare bikes with cars, airplanes, motorcycles, sailboats, etc. But they are nothing like those things and have their own set of rules for dealing with their light, often delicate structures and low rpm parts. Optimally, everything on the bike would be assembled below max torque - this isn't like worrying that a turbine is going to throw itself apart.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

3TTT doesn't make anything, do they? All their product is contracted out.


----------



## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Kontact said:


> You should use whatever torque is sufficient to hold the bike part in place without damaging it.


Exactly. I also like to take into consideration the resulting consequence and risk for either under or over torque. If I under torque a stem, the consequence is a slip. I can probably baby the bike home without much drama. Over torquing could lead to a sudden failure of the bolts, which could be very bad while riding. 

Cassette lock rings are opposite. Under torquing from my experience can cause the cogs to loosen mid ride causing damage. In this application, I choose to tighten to torque.


----------



## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

Kontact said:


> People like to compare bikes with cars, airplanes, motorcycles, sailboats, etc. But they are nothing like those things and have their own set of rules for dealing with their light, often delicate structures and low rpm parts. Optimally, everything on the bike would be assembled below max torque - this isn't like worrying that a turbine is going to throw itself apart.


So the stated torque specs go against everything taught to mechanics everywhere else in the world, in every industry? Is there a class in college which tells mech engineers to go against the norm only when applying to bicycles?


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

GirchyGirchy said:


> So the stated torque specs go against everything taught to mechanics everywhere else in the world, in every industry? Is there a class in college which tells mech engineers to go against the norm only when applying to bicycles?


Mech engineers don't get jobs at bike shops. Bicycle parts manuals are simple consumer documents meant to make it easy to assemble bikes, not engineering specs.

Don't kid yourself about the bike industry - it may have some engineers working for it, but it has always been driven by independent or industry trained people who don't care how things are done anywhere else. The automotive and aviation industries are offshoots of the bicycle industry, not the other way around.

Bicycle companies are constantly making up their own rules, especially when it comes to composites. And the adaptation of composite parts to existing clamping stems is certainly not borrowed from any other industry.


----------



## jmoryl (Sep 5, 2004)

Nice to see that 3T is keeping up traditions despite moving production from Italy to Asia!
I have a nice light 3T Zepp stem with Ti hardware from back in the days when maufacturing was Italian. I'm a bit afraid to use it, because there was a history of the Ti screws holding the front plate snapping. The problem, in this case, was said to be the inadequate length of the threaded part of the fastener - and it was supposedly fixed by the provision of longer screws. I still think I will replace the screws with SS before using the thing...

When I worked on mechanical systems (mainly lab equipment, e.g. vacuum chambers) it was standard practice to always lubricate threads so that they could be smoothly brought up to the specified torque. And if a stem has a single specified toruqe, I should think that is what you should aim for (it shouldn't be specified as a maximum). There should be enough leeway in the design so the exact torque can be off by some fraction without endangering the user. Otherwise it is crap engineering.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

jmoryl said:


> Nice to see that 3T is keeping up traditions despite moving production from Italy to Asia!
> I have a nice light 3T Zepp stem with Ti hardware from back in the days when maufacturing was Italian. I'm a bit afraid to use it, because there was a history of the Ti screws holding the front plate snapping. The problem, in this case, was said to be the inadequate length of the threaded part of the fastener - and it was supposedly fixed by the provision of longer screws. I still think I will replace the screws with SS before using the thing...
> 
> When I worked on mechanical systems (mainly lab equipment, e.g. vacuum chambers) it was standard practice to always lubricate threads so that they could be smoothly brought up to the specified torque. And if a stem has a single specified toruqe, I should think that is what you should aim for (it shouldn't be specified as a maximum). There should be enough leeway in the design so the exact torque can be off by some fraction without endangering the user. Otherwise it is crap engineering.


I'm certain that a stated 5nm "max" has plenty of leeway.

Everybody needs to remember that there are only very loose standards at work here. Diameters, wall thicknesses, clamp shape, etc. It isn't like we're bolting a Honda handlebar to a Honda stem to a Honda fork. Everything must be a little sloppy, and any sort of limit is a very, very safe limit.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

trailrunner68 said:


> Ti bolts on stems are unecessarily stupid. Save weight somewhere else.


Exactly. I can't believe people are willing to spend $20 for a pair of TI bolts for stupid stuff like water bottle cages that might save them a half a gram. But you know, it's hobby, and if they have more money then they know what to do with then they'll spend it for completely useless stuff.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

froze said:


> Exactly. I can't believe people are willing to spend $20 for a pair of TI bolts for stupid stuff like water bottle cages that might save them a half a gram. But you know, it's hobby, and if they have more money then they know what to do with then they'll spend it for completely useless stuff.


Considering that the actual cost of a pair of Ti bolts is $5, not $20, that seems like a pretty cheap "upgrade" compared to most of the things people get excited about around here.

http://www.torontocycles.com/Selling/Titanium_Bolts.html


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

froze said:


> Exactly. I can't believe people are willing to spend $20 for a pair of TI bolts for stupid stuff like water bottle cages that might save them a half a gram. But you know, it's hobby, and if they have more money then they know what to do with then they'll spend it for completely useless stuff.



Or, they hate the rust that happens when you sweat all over them. I have Ti in some places and SS in others. SS is much easier to get. Imho, it costs 1/3 the price of Ti, weighs the same as steel, but does not rust.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kontact said:


> Considering that the actual cost of a pair of Ti bolts is $5, not $20, that seems like a pretty cheap "upgrade" compared to most of the things people get excited about around here.
> 
> Titanium Bolts, Titanium Fasteners, Ti Nuts, Ti Accessories


Well you got me on that one, but even so the weight savings is nil thus not worth the price, nor could I find them for less then $10 a pair, which is half what I thought. And one poster mentioned rust, I use stainless steel and they don't rust, weigh almost as much as TI, cost less then a dollar each, and last forever.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

froze said:


> Well you got me on that one, but even so the weight savings is nil thus not worth the price, nor could I find them for less then $10 a pair, which is half what I thought. And one poster mentioned rust, I use stainless steel and they don't rust, weigh almost as much as TI, cost less then a dollar each, and last forever.


Couldn't look around on that page, eh?

The "Titanium Non-taper Head Bolts" are on the left side of the page, and are sold individually for $2.40 up to $2.65. (You would double that number for a pair price.)

The point being that a Sram Red rear derailleur is $360 and only an once lighter than Force at $175 - about $10 a gram. But people spend the money and recommend Red for that minuscule difference all the time.

So you making it sound like Ti bolts are purchased only by fools seems like pretty selective reasoning to me. The cost/benefit of nearly every upgrade in cycling is a "useless" waste of money by the standard you propose.


I'd recommend either letting people's choices of where to spend their money slide, or laying into everyone who buys anything nicer than a Tiagra equipped $1000 bike.


----------



## jmoryl (Sep 5, 2004)

It is valid question as to why sometimes rational people would spend $185 more (Kontact's numbers) for Red vs. Force. For most of us the engine is the problem, not the freaking bolts on our stems.


----------



## RiDE (May 28, 2004)

They did a recall of their zepp xl stems 8 years ago for the same reason. Never trusted a ti bolt after mine snapped so now I just put them on my bottle cages.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kontact said:


> So you making it sound like Ti bolts are purchased only by fools seems like pretty selective reasoning to me. The cost/benefit of nearly every upgrade in cycling is a "useless" waste of money by the standard you propose.
> 
> 
> I'd recommend either letting people's choices of where to spend their money slide, or laying into everyone who buys anything nicer than a Tiagra equipped $1000 bike.


I was using the TI bolt thing as an example. Your example of the difference between Red and Force was a better example. But usually when you buy a bike brand new and the bike comes with the option or either Red or Force, or Ultregra and Dura Ace, or Chorus and Record, the price difference is a lot smaller due to the component price break and thus would be a lot less then $10 an ounce. But people will spend huge amounts of money to get a weight savings of 20 grams or so, there are lot of examples from water bottle cages to seat posts to handle bars to...you name it, and since a lot of this stuff isn't even rotational weight their never ever going to notice it.

My post was not intended to tell people how to spend their money, we all spend money where we see fit, and I even said that in my first post on this subject here. 

But as Jmoryl said, and we've heard this said a thousand times before, it's not about the weight it's about the engine. You could put Lance Armstrong on a 45 pound Schwinn Varsity and I bet he would still beat at least 99% of the riders on this forum riding any high tech bike of their chosing.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

froze said:


> I was using the TI bolt thing as an example. Your example of the difference between Red and Force was a better example. But usually when you buy a bike brand new and the bike comes with the option or either Red or Force, or Ultregra and Dura Ace, or Chorus and Record, the price difference is a lot smaller due to the component price break and thus would be a lot less then $10 an ounce. But people will spend huge amounts of money to get a weight savings of 20 grams or so, there are lot of examples from water bottle cages to seat posts to handle bars to...you name it, and since a lot of this stuff isn't even rotational weight their never ever going to notice it.
> 
> My post was not intended to tell people how to spend their money, we all spend money where we see fit, and I even said that in my first post on this subject here.
> 
> But as Jmoryl said, and we've heard this said a thousand times before, it's not about the weight it's about the engine. You could put Lance Armstrong on a 45 pound Schwinn Varsity and I bet he would still beat at least 99% of the riders on this forum riding any high tech bike of their chosing.


It really isn't about the engine.

Cycling is not a pure sport dedicated only to personal bests. It is about ride qualities, aesthetics, community, exploration, customization, pride and a whole bunch of other intangibles that Record, Force, ti bolts, bright jerseys and messy tubeless tires serve to make the sport more enjoyable. 

Talking about the engine is a slight of hand where one appears to distill the sport down to its supposed core, single purpose. But I usually see this statement used to shut down "frivolous" discussion about other aspects of cycling that people are passionate about, so I don't see it as positive.

Ti bolts are neat-o. They aren't a good idea for stems, but we are very lucky to live in an age when such dramatic materials are easy to obtain.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Ti does not rust. For example, it's used in some medical implants. If your Ti screws are rusting, they aint Ti.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

looigi said:


> Ti does not rust. For example, it's used in some medical implants. If your Ti screws are rusting, they aint Ti.


Ti does oxidize, but the oxide layer is thin, stable and chemically neutral. It also forms in seconds.

I don't think anyone said that Ti rusts. "Rust" is red iron oxide - the term doesn't apply to any other metal.


----------



## jmoryl (Sep 5, 2004)

Kontact said:


> ....Cycling is not a pure sport dedicated only to personal bests. It is about ride qualities, aesthetics, community, exploration, customization, pride and a whole bunch of other intangibles that Record, Force, ti bolts, bright jerseys and messy tubeless tires serve to make the sport more enjoyable.....


You forgot the part where cycling is about doing a face plant into the road because you tried to save 2g on a Ti stem screw....


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

jmoryl said:


> You forgot the part where cycling is about doing a face plant into the road because you tried to save 2g on a Ti stem screw....


Funny, I thought I specifically said ti bolts weren't good for stems.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kontact said:


> Funny, I thought I specifically said ti bolts weren't good for stems.


I know I would never want a TI stud in my stem.


----------



## parity (Feb 28, 2006)

I had the same thing happen to me a while ago with the stock 3T Ti bolts. I used different Ti bolts without any problems. I think the quality of their bolts aren't very good. Also having a properly calibrated torque wrench is important. After this incident, I sent my torque wrench back for calibration and it was a little bit off but not by a huge margin. And I don't think would have caused the bolt to snap. But it makes me wonder if people are using properly calibrated torque wrenches. Also I am not a fan of clicker torque wrench after snapping the bolt. I prefer a digital torque wrench and as I can see what I torqued it to (assuming properly calibrated). Maybe over kill but I feel more confident


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

parity said:


> I had the same thing happen to me a while ago with the stock 3T Ti bolts. I used different Ti bolts without any problems. I think the quality of their bolts aren't very good. Also having a properly calibrated torque wrench is important. After this incident, I sent my torque wrench back for calibration and it was a little bit off but not by a huge margin. And I don't think would have caused the bolt to snap. But it makes me wonder if people are using properly calibrated torque wrenches. Also I am not a fan of clicker torque wrench after snapping the bolt. I prefer a digital torque wrench and as I can see what I torqued it to (assuming properly calibrated). Maybe over kill but I feel more confident



A digital torque wrench is not any more or less accurate then a clicker. Because the digital looks high tech people assume it's the most accurate, it's still functions mechanically. Actually the dial type is the most accurate because it's the only type that is uneffected by the hand hold position of the wrench, but the dial cannot always be read well if at all if the bolt being torqued is in a unique position that puts the dial in a unfavored viewing position. And even the dial type will need to be calibrated if you want the most accurate read. And dial type can be difficult to use if at all in tight places.

Click type are the most popular because you don't need to have a scale to read in some ackward position, you just listen to the clicks, and they allow access to tighter spaces due to their shape. But click type need to be stored properly or they will go out of calibration, any time the unit won't be used for more then a half an hour you'll need to store it according to manufactures instructions which usually means setting it for 20% of scale; then just before using set it for 50% of scale and use it 4 or 5 times to exercise (for lack of a better word) the spring. Also click type and beam type do not like being dropped, if that happens it will need to be sent back for calibration. Never loosen a bolt with a torque wrench.

Most decent torque wrenches are good for about 5,000 uses before calibration would be required and cost between $60 to $90 to calibrate, not financially wise to do on a $50 Harbor Freight type of wrench!

Also all torque wrenches are the most accurate in the middle zone of their capability, and the least accurate on the lowest end and the top end of the wrench, thus it's important you buy a torque wrench based on what it will be used on and not trying to buy one that can do a wide range of loads to save money. 

When it's all done and said get torque wrench that the torque settings for your bike will fall in the center half of the scale on that wrench. This means if your doing all the wrenching on your bike you'll need two wrenches, a bigger inch pound wrench for heavier stuff that will fall in the 240 to 480 inch pound ranges, so find a wrench that will put those figures mostly in the center half of the scale. The lighter stuff starts at 20 and goes up to about 175; that range is going to be impossible to find a torque wrench that will put those numbers in the center half, this is why you need to know what torque settings your bike/components uses so you can get the right wrenches.


----------



## 53Phil (May 20, 2012)

whoa crazy.. I was recently installing a 3T stem and snapped 2 bolts (couldn't believe I did the 2nd one after the first one snapped). I thought it was just me or my torque wrench was crap or something. Just happened to come across this thread now. They were a pain in the arse to get out too, they snapped flush with the stem part. Ended up using a reverse thread screw thing to get them out.


----------



## hitman (Jun 3, 2012)

Sadly the same thing has just happened to me - tightening a 3T Arx stem and the bolt just snapped. I couldn't believe it, checked my torque which was set to 5NM. So I tightened the next bolt a turn and snap, that one broke. I'm in shock at how easily they broke, came online and this is the second of a series of posts which I have read on the same topic. Now I'm faced with getting the bolts out and then sourcing some replacement Ti bolts. Still, slightly reassured that I haven't damaged my new carbon Ergonova bars - not sure whether I should send the stem back? Any thoughts?


----------



## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

I have 2 ARX stems w/ Ti hardware and a Craftsman digital wrench, and I think i see the problem.

In order not to snap your bolts -

Fit the front plate finger-tight so that the gap between the plate and main body is as close to identical as possible at all 4 locations. Next, tighten each bolt, in order, no more that ~ 1/4 turn at a time until they reach the correct torque value.

What will happen if you do effectively the reverse of this is that an angular gap will form between the bolt and the face plate. Continuing to tighten at that point shears the bolt head.


----------



## hitman (Jun 3, 2012)

I spent ages gradually tightening each stem bolt in order (following the sequence detailed on the packaging with the stem). All of a sudden on one of the turns the bolt snapped. I thought that it must have been a faulty bolt, tried the next one and exactly the same thing happened. I was using a calibrated torque wrench and have never had a bolt fail on me before.


----------



## hamsey (Aug 16, 2010)

FSA makes Ti stem bolts. Used them instead of the 3T ones.


----------



## hitman (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks Hamsey
have been offered a new stem or the shop will pay for replacement Ti bolts
Any ideas where I can get the FSA bolts from (I'm in the UK)
Or can anyone recommend a good 130mm stem +/- 6-10degrees at less than £100/$150 
cheers


----------



## hitman (Jun 3, 2012)

Actually I think those FSA bolts are too long - 18mm versus 15mm for 3T


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

I am using KCNC stems with Ti bolts and have read of problems with the faceplate snapping into 2 pieces and so have been quite careful when torquing up the bolts. 

I have noticed that you do not need to get up to 5NM torque to secure the handlebar. I am using 3T Ergonova handlebars and so there is the roughened surface for contact with the stem.


----------



## DCE (Jul 14, 2010)

I was just installing a 3T ARX Team stem and one of the titanium bolts snapped. I was well below the 5nm torque setting. 

It's a bummer that they use such sub par bolts.


----------



## RAFIUDEEN (Apr 6, 2012)

guys need a suggestion please tell me where can i find the yorks and ti bolt set for 3t drocio seat post i was climbing and the seat just came off could not find the bolt or the york near by hence got to buy to make the seat post functional-need online since i am from india


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

RAFIUDEEN said:


> guys need a suggestion please tell me where can i find the yorks and ti bolt set for 3t drocio seat post i was climbing and the seat just came off could not find the bolt or the york near by hence got to buy to make the seat post functional-need online since i am from india


I have an older 3T seat post that the bolt bent and discovered I couldn't get parts for it from 3T, this may be true with all seat posts. However an LBS I went to had the same length and threaded seat post bolt in a spare parts nuts and bolts scrap box. A lot of bike shops scrap broken parts and keep the good parts for repairs; I would try going to several Bike Shops and see if you can dig up suitable repair parts. Problem you may run into is that you may find lots of steel parts that would work, but TI parts could be a huge problem finding. However not getting a TI bolt really is not a big deal, sure it may weigh 2 grams more but that weight is nothing, however TI bolts do have a tendency to loosen due to stretching over time which is what happened to yours...steel won't do that. If you get lucky and find a TI bolt make sure you check the bolt's tension (tightness) every time you clean and lube the chain. I'm a bit surprised you didn't notice that the seat was loose long before it came off though.

If parts scrounging fails then you have no choice but to buy an new post or find a used one.


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

You're looking for a seatpost yoke, not york. Google "seatpost yoke" and you should be able to find a replacement. The bolt you can easily get through a place like TorontoCycles, all you need are the bolt head size, diameter, thread length and bolt length.


----------



## RAFIUDEEN (Apr 6, 2012)

could not find it their yoke


----------



## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

You don't need their yoke, pretty much any yoke that has the same M size threaded bolt hole will do. You can buy an entire replacement set (bolts and yokes) that match, although you'll probably still have to buy Ti bolts because the set likely does not have them (Ritchey for example uses Ti bolts on their WCS stems (except the new 260), but not their seatposts). Most yokes (but not all) are interchangable because the seat rails are standard.

Also just to point it out, you have a DORICO seatpost.


----------



## RAFIUDEEN (Apr 6, 2012)

DrSmile said:


> You don't need their yoke, pretty much any yoke that has the same M size threaded bolt hole will do. You can buy an entire replacement set (bolts and yokes) that match, although you'll probably still have to buy Ti bolts because the set likely does not have them (Ritchey for example uses Ti bolts on their WCS stems (except the new 260), but not their seatposts). Most yokes (but not all) are interchangable because the seat rails are standard.
> 
> Also just to point it out, you have a DORICO seatpost.


YES IT IS dorico seatpost


----------



## joejeweler (Jun 29, 2012)

froze said:


> I was using the TI bolt thing as an example. Your example of the difference between Red and Force was a better example. But usually when you buy a bike brand new and the bike comes with the option or either Red or Force, or Ultregra and Dura Ace, or Chorus and Record, the price difference is a lot smaller due to the component price break and thus would be a lot less then $10 an ounce. But people will spend huge amounts of money to get a weight savings of 20 grams or so, there are lot of examples from water bottle cages to seat posts to handle bars to...you name it, and since a lot of this stuff isn't even rotational weight their never ever going to notice it.
> 
> My post was not intended to tell people how to spend their money, we all spend money where we see fit, and I even said that in my first post on this subject here.
> 
> But as Jmoryl said, and we've heard this said a thousand times before, it's not about the weight it's about the engine.*You could put Lance Armstrong on a 45 pound Schwinn Varsity and I bet he would still beat at least 99% of the riders on this forum riding any high tech bike of their chosing.*




*Depending on "if" he had his juice or not that morning *

Seriously though, it makes me wonder about using my bonrager titanium front skewer??? Bought in on ebay and love the weight, but i've never quite felt as secure as with a good CM steel one in place. Some of those old Dura Ace skewelrs i have are pretty heavy though, but i kinda like that in a criticle area. :thumbsup:

Seem to remember reading that the strength to open and close a TI skewer is far less than the breaking point of the titanium shaft??? But after 35 years as a bench jeweler, i have some pretty stout forearms and grip. 

....titanium spokes on one of my wheelsets is another worry, both in safey and getting replacements. (Cane Creek Aerohead wheelset) The light spoke count a factor there too. Just couldn't resist the ebay BIN of $109.00 w/shipping from CA to NY!
Never had a problem yet, bth, but the previous owner replaced one of the rear spokes with a stainless steel one before i got it. Original spokes tough to find for these.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I haven't heard of any issues with modern TI skewers, maybe someone here has. The problems I heard of was going back 15 or more years ago. If you followed the directions on how to make sure your skewer will properly clamp then you should be good to go with no worries. Most skewers are set up so that you start to feel resistance when the skewer arm is at 90 degrees from closed, I assume TI skewers are the same.


----------

