# Numbness



## Cadore (Aug 13, 2009)

For the first time, after a few years of riding, I am experiencing numbness in my arms and hands after about 1hr. I've been messing with my seat height a little since I bough a new saddle but nothing else is different.

What are some of the causes of numbness in the arms?

Thanks


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cadore said:


> For the first time, after a few years of riding, I am experiencing numbness in my arms and hands after about 1hr. I've been messing with my seat height a little since I bough a new saddle but nothing else is different.
> 
> What are some of the causes of numbness in the arms?
> 
> Thanks


Could be a number of things, but the more common cause is excessive frontal weight.

If everything was fine until you replaced your saddle, my guess is that you either don't have fore/ aft positioned correctly and / or it's not level. First thing to do is ensure that it's level. If it is, you may want to consider tipping the nose up slightly (keyword, slightly). Some riders (me included) prefer this position, but keep it slight. 

Next, check KOPS. It's not because your knee has to be centered over the pedal spindle, but you need a starting point. Once that's checked (depending on its location) either center it if your knee was _ahead_ of the spindle, or adjust it so it's slightly behind (5mm's will do) if it was over. The point here is to relocate your weight slightly rearward, minimizing frontal weight borne by your arms/ hands.

If you need assistance with how to measure KOPS or a method for checking that the saddle is level, update this thread and we'll provide it.

BTW, incorrect saddle height will cause some fit issues, but not arm/ hand numbness, so if you haven't already done so, reset that prior to making the above adjustments.


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## Cadore (Aug 13, 2009)

PJ:

Thanks for your help.

Can you clarify what KOPS is?


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## Jagtec1 (Jul 17, 2011)

Knee Over Pedal Spindle.


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## Cadore (Aug 13, 2009)

Good, I thought is was something like that.

I'll check these things before riding in the morning.

Thanks.


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## Cadore (Aug 13, 2009)

Thought I would update everyone.

KOPS looks good. I lowered my seat slightly and moved the saddle forward slightly and have had some alleviation of the numbness. I am still tweaking these adjustments and hope to get to a perfect place soon.

Thanks everyone.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cadore said:


> Thought I would update everyone.
> 
> KOPS looks good. I lowered my seat slightly and moved the saddle forward slightly and have had some alleviation of the numbness. I am still tweaking these adjustments and hope to get to a perfect place soon.
> 
> Thanks everyone.


Thanks for the update. I'm glad you're zeroing in on minimizing the numbness, but (to be honest) the adjustments you mention run counter to my experiences (with me as well as others). 

I'm not saying you're wrong, because when it comes to fit issues, there is very little that's 'wrong'. Simply offering that it's not following standard practice (for what that's worth). 

Pls keep us updated....


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## Cadore (Aug 13, 2009)

PJ:

I tried your recommendations as well as adjusting the saddle height. I've leveled the seat with a slight tilt up (which is the way I've been riding). 

I do have a question about the KOPS. In your message you mention to relocate weight slightly rearward. This is done by moving the saddle horizontally, right? Also, I assume this will alleviate some weight towards the front because, by being positioned slightly aft of the pedal center, there is slight momentum toward the rear of the bike. 

What you say?

Thanks.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Cadore said:


> PJ:
> 
> I tried your recommendations as well as adjusting the saddle height. I've leveled the seat with a slight tilt up (which is the way I've been riding).
> 
> ...


Your understanding is correct.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cadore said:


> PJ:
> 
> I tried your recommendations as well as adjusting the saddle height. I've leveled the seat with a slight tilt up (which is the way I've been riding).
> 
> ...


The bolded statement is exactly right, and your explanation is spot-on. 

I think when you said you moved the saddle forward, I assumed you did the opposite of what I suggested. Maybe you meant it was too far back, so you relocated it forward (but still behind KOPS)?


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## smokey422 (Feb 22, 2004)

*Here's another possible cure*

Raise the handlebars. With the newer threadless headsets that will mean a new stem but the improvement is often worth it. I personally have Ritchey adjustable stem on my Lemond and have it tilted up as far as it will go. This puts the bars less than an inch below the saddle and made my riding a lot more comfortable. Yes, it looks funny and if the stem police ever saw me, they would give me hell but the main idea is to be comfortable.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

smokey422 said:


> Raise the handlebars.


Possibly, but the problem for many riders experiencing hand/ arm numbness is excessive pressure, oftentimes caused by too much frontal weight. Raising the bars a couple of CM's isn't going to fix that, so (as has been mentioned) saddle adjustments need to be made to move rider weight rearward. 

Also, incorrect bar height usually results in a sore neck and lower back:
http://www.jimlangley.net/crank/bikefit.html
(#5).

That said, as with most fit issues, YMMV.


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## Cadore (Aug 13, 2009)

All right. Just returned from a ride and I think I have it right. No numbness, good position and I feel good.

Now, just to get it straight with regards to KOPS: my knee should be slightly behind the axel at what position. I have it slightly behind at 12 or 6 o'clock.

Thanks.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cadore said:


> All right. Just returned from a ride and I think I have it right. No numbness, good position and I feel good.
> 
> Now, just to get it straight with regards to KOPS: my knee should be slightly behind the axel at what position.* I have it slightly behind at 12 or 6 o'clock*.
> 
> Thanks.


That's not quite right. Using a weighted string (or similar) with the pedal at 9 (and 3), dropping the string from bottom center of your kneecap, the weight should fall slightly behind the pedal spindle. I start at about 5 mm's, with the measurement starting at center of spindle, so the weight would be slightly behind the center.

Follow the dotted line....
View attachment 236638


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## Bombaman (Apr 21, 2011)

I just wanted to say thank you all for this thread, because it helped me to improve my seat position to get rid of numbness in my right hand during riding.

I read here the first time what KOPS is and by searching on the internet I learned more about what I was doing wrong.

Usually I am riding on my TT bike in aero position. There everything is fine. And with the new ISM Adamo seat I also feel no numbness in the seat area. But when I was riding for a longer period of time not in aero position my right hand was getting numb. Not really bad but enough to feel it.

I increased the position of the handle bars a little bit and moved my seat position slightly back. So, I moved to a slightly less agressive position. 

I was riding my bike with the new seat position today and I can tell by now that it is an improvement.

Thanks. 

Do you guys think that a bike fit should be done on a regular basis? What I mean is that even if the bike stays the same there might be adjustments necessary because the rider changes slightly over time.


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## tigeo (Jun 6, 2010)

I suffer from the same problem, numb hands after about 45 min. I always thought it was the stem height so I kept raising it and slid my seat forward a bit. Wow, was I wrong. I just looked at my KOPS and I was a bit forward of the pedal spindle; I slid my seat back and now am on top of it. It will be interesting to see how it feels on the next ride. Thanks!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Bombaman said:


> I just wanted to say thank you all for this thread, because it helped me to improve my seat position to get rid of numbness in my right hand during riding.
> 
> I read here the first time what KOPS is and by searching on the internet I learned more about what I was doing wrong.
> 
> ...


My thoughts on your question....

While it's a given that (for a variety of reasons) fit evolves over time, the bottom line of a good fit is comfort and efficiency. If you can ride in relative comfort and feel efficient (in control) on the bike, I see no reason to have another bike fit. Conversely, if there are niggling fit issues and you don't get that 'fits like a glove' feeling, then yes, I'd schedule a fitting.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tigeo said:


> I suffer from the same problem, numb hands after about 45 min. I always thought it was the stem height so I kept raising it and slid my seat forward a bit. Wow, was I wrong. * I just looked at my KOPS and I was a bit forward of the pedal spindle; I slid my seat back and now am on top of it.* It will be interesting to see how it feels on the next ride. Thanks!


That's a good first step, so pls let us know how the adjustment works for you. 

Also, some things that can help:
- Change hand positions frequently (tops, hoods, drops, etc.)
- Keep the upper torso relaxed, arms slightly bent.
- Consider good quality gel gloves and bar tape.
- Keep a _slightly_ loose grip on the bars (avoid the 'death grip').


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## RoadChaser (Jul 29, 2011)

what about numbness in the foot?


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## gillygong (Jul 14, 2011)

I also get some numbness in my left big toe after about 30-40 minutes. I've tried adjusting cleat position several times to no avail..


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

RoadChaser said:


> what about numbness in the foot?


Could be a number of causes, but the place to start is cleat set up, assuming you're using clipless pedals.

Give us some background info (what shoes, pedals you're using, if you've been fitted, where specifically the numbness occurs and when...).


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

gillygong said:


> I also get some numbness in my left big toe after about 30-40 minutes. I've tried adjusting cleat position several times to no avail..


If it were a fore/ aft cleat position problem the numbness would most likely occur across your toes.

First thing I'd do is reset the cleats to a neutral left/ right position and fore/ aft positioned with ball of foot over or _slightly_ ahead of pedal spindle. Next, try insoles with a metatarsal button to disperse pressure, but sometimes with numbness on the inner side of the toes, it might signal a need for a varus wedge to compensate for your knees natural tendancy to tilt towards the top tube during your pedal stroke. You'd only add it to the left shoe, at least to start. I'd use the wedge in conjunction with the footbeds (both shoes for them).

Specialized sells both the footbeds and wedges.
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=57053


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## ohvrolla (Aug 2, 2009)

As has been pointed out numbness in the hands or arms is generally from too much weight on them, and a lot of times because the seat is too far forward. Just stand flat against a wall and lean forward, can't go too far before losing balance. Step away from the wall and try the same thing. I think some people would be surprised to find out they're actually more comfortable in a more agressive riding position when the seat fore/aft is set up properly.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

I have numbless but only in the left hand about 50% of the time, I have to shake it out.
The hoods are setup just about identical, I can't tell if one hand's weight is more than the other,
I have no idea what I'd need to change, possibly the left hood needs adjustment I just don't know which way. any help there?


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## wanton007 (Mar 9, 2011)

PoorCyclist said:


> I have numbless but only in the left hand about 50% of the time, I have to shake it out.
> The hoods are setup just about identical, I can't tell if one hand's weight is more than the other,
> I have no idea what I'd need to change, possibly the left hood needs adjustment I just don't know which way. any help there?


I have the same thing!! I only get numbness in my left hand too.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

PoorCyclist said:


> I have numbless but only in the left hand about 50% of the time, I have to shake it out.
> The hoods are setup just about identical, I can't tell if one hand's weight is more than the other,
> I have no idea what I'd need to change, possibly the left hood needs adjustment I just don't know which way. any help there?





wanton007 said:


> I have the same thing!! I only get numbness in my left hand too.


The fix may depend on specifically _where_ the numbness occurs and when, but FWIW for a variety of reasons, many of us don't ride in perfect symmetry. You may be leaning to the left to compensate for some anatomical issue, or your left hand is slightly more sensitive to pressure, or it may just be less than ideal form (ex: gripping the hood rather than hooking it, thumb and forefinger), or you're not changing hand positions frequently. 

And, there's always a possibility that your hoods aren't positioned quite as 'exact' as they look, but rather than going through the trouble of adjusting the hood, you could first try tilting the bars up or down slightly, which IME may help.

Lastly, if you don't already use them, consider good quality gel gloves.


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## RoadChaser (Jul 29, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Could be a number of causes, but the place to start is cleat set up, assuming you're using clipless pedals.
> 
> Give us some background info (what shoes, pedals you're using, if you've been fitted, where specifically the numbness occurs and when...).


I use shimano SPD shoes and pedals are speedplay zeros. Numbness occurs about 40 mins in and it's my left foot the ball of my foot and only my left foot right foot is fine no numbness


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

RoadChaser said:


> I use shimano SPD shoes and pedals are speedplay zeros. Numbness occurs about 40 mins in and it's my left foot the ball of my foot and only my left foot right foot is fine no numbness


IME Speedplay's are a little more sensitive in cleat setup than some other systems, so I'd start with adjusting the left cleat back about 2mm's. Depending on your starting point, this should position your forefoot slightly forward of the pedal spindle and will (hopefully) cure the numbness. 

If not, you can repeat the adjustment another couple of mm's, but (assuming that places the ball of foot about 5mm's ahead of pedal spindle) the next thing to look at are footbeds with metatarsal buttons, but start with the cleat adjustment.


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## RoadChaser (Jul 29, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> IME Speedplay's are a little more sensitive in cleat setup than some other systems, so I'd start with adjusting the left cleat back about 2mm's. Depending on your starting point, this should position your forefoot slightly forward of the pedal spindle and will (hopefully) cure the numbness.
> 
> If not, you can repeat the adjustment another couple of mm's, but (assuming that places the ball of foot about 5mm's ahead of pedal spindle) the next thing to look at are footbeds with metatarsal buttons, but start with the cleat adjustment.


thanks PJ352 I'll try that


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## Cadore (Aug 13, 2009)

Okay, now there a new problem has popped up. All of a sudden I'm getting lower back pain. If you remember, I'm the guy that started this thread with numbness in my right arm. Moved my seat, fixed KOPS and numbness is gone. However, now I have back pain after 20-25mins. What gives?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cadore said:


> Okay, now there a new problem has popped up. All of a sudden I'm getting lower back pain. If you remember, I'm the guy that started this thread with numbness in my right arm. Moved my seat, fixed KOPS and numbness is gone. However, now I have back pain after 20-25mins. What gives?


The two most common causes are 1) incorrect saddle to bar drop and 2) incorrect reach. Since you specifically mention _lower_ back, and assuming you now have some saddle to bar drop, my advice is to start by raising the bars 7-10mm's.

Refer to #5 of this link under *Check handlebar height*:
Bike Fit Fitting A Bicycle Seat Adjustment Height Reach Tips by Jim Langley
especially the last bullet under *notes*.

Because it's not fully covered in the link provided, just FYI... depending on your spacer/ stem configuration, this adjustment _may_ require flipping the stem and/ or redistributing the spacers (along with pre-loading the headset bearings), so if you're unfamiliar with the process leave it to your LBS or post and we'll assist.


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## Cadore (Aug 13, 2009)

This is for everyone who has contributed but mostly for PJ.

I have now logged in 100mi. without numbness or back pain. I followed all of PJ's advice and little by little saw improvements. Started by moving my saddle forward, fixing KOPS, and then raising my stem. Although I still feel that a little tweaking is still necessary, I am pain free and can feel everything after my usual 20mi workouts. Thanks everyone.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cadore said:


> This is for everyone who has contributed but mostly for PJ.
> 
> I have now logged in 100mi. without numbness or back pain. I followed all of PJ's advice and little by little saw improvements. Started by moving my saddle forward, fixing KOPS, and then raising my stem. Although I still feel that a little tweaking is still necessary, I am pain free and can feel everything after my usual 20mi workouts. Thanks everyone.


Excellent! I'm glad it all worked out for you, and thanks for the update. Hopefully this thread and your feedback will help others in the future.

Ride safe!!


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## realbiker (Aug 18, 2011)

Maybe you're resting on nerves! It happens to me when I'm sitting incorrectly in the car or train.


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## OutAndBack (Aug 18, 2011)

Way to stick with it Cadore.


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## biker_on_a_budget (Aug 19, 2011)

This happens to me too, I will be adjusting my bike soon!


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## vipergts (Aug 18, 2011)

Same here i get some numbness only in the palm of my left hand. Maybe its a death grip on the side only?


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## dharrison (Oct 27, 2009)

vipergts said:


> Same here i get some numbness only in the palm of my left hand. Maybe its a death grip on the side only?


Same thing here. This is a frequent but minor problem for me. Today, I did 110 (my farthest this year by about 25 miles) and the numbness is the worst its been after a ride. 

I've been thinking its because my left arm is the weaker of the two therefore I am holding with a firmer grip and absorbing road vibrations. Anyone who can offer advice on how to fix single hand numbness (besides 1 handed pushups) wins my adoration. 

I could certainly use some core strengthening too.


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## vipergts (Aug 18, 2011)

dharrison said:


> Same thing here. This is a frequent but minor problem for me. Today, I did 110 (my farthest this year by about 25 miles) and the numbness is the worst its been after a ride.
> 
> I've been thinking its because my left arm is the weaker of the two therefore I am holding with a firmer grip and absorbing road vibrations. Anyone who can offer advice on how to fix single hand numbness (besides 1 handed pushups) wins my adoration.
> 
> I could certainly use some core strengthening too.


Same here. For me its random when it occurs and im beginning to think that im unconsciously doing a death grip with my left hand or even leaning more on my left side as whole. Although from what i can remember rides in which i dont have numbness are those in which i switch my hand position often.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

vipergts said:


> Same here. For me its random when it occurs and *im beginning to think that im unconsciously doing a death grip with my left hand or even leaning more on my left side as whole.* Although from what i can remember rides in which i dont have numbness are those in which i *switch my hand position often*.


You may be answering your own question here, but if you haven't already done so, read my post above that starts with _The fix may depend on_....

Also:
- Change hand positions frequently (tops, hoods, drops, etc.)
- Keep the upper torso relaxed, arms slightly bent.
- Consider good quality gel gloves and bar tape.
- Keep a slightly loose grip on the bars (avoid the 'death grip').

(May also apply to dharrison)


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## J-No (Aug 22, 2007)

Did a search on this and this thread popped up. I am having numbness in my right hand. I think I have it narrowed down to positioning on the hoods. On my 'cross bike I have Salsa Woodchipper bars (super flared, hoods angled inward). No problems. On my road bike I have a regular bar set up and I cannot go 30 min without a numb right hand. 

Set-ups are close, although I have a different saddles. This just came up a year ago.

I have gone so far as to get an EMG on that arm. It was normal. I had numb fingers for a month after doing an ultra.

Any thoughts? I hate putting dirt drop bars on my Spec Roubaix, but I need to be comfortable.


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## rgg01 (Jun 21, 2011)

I watched a video on youtube about aero positions, I forget the guy's name but he seems quite well known older guy, he gave the opinion that a lot of people suffered numbness and discomfort because they had their bars too high, I'd tried a lot of these other remedies and thought it couldn't hurt to try, so removed 2 spacers and angled my bars ever so slightly down and it works brilliantly for me. My next step would otherwise have been to buy a longer stem to increase my reach.


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## todayilearned (Sep 28, 2011)

Most cyclists suffer from ulnar neuropathy because of holding the bars wrong or bad fit.

If you feel numbness in your pinky and 1/2 of your ring finger then it's a branch that goes through guyon's canal (or ulnar canal between the pisiform and hamate bone). If you apply pressure there (ie improperly bending at wrists or wrong fit) then you get neuropathy.

NSAIDs will reduce the inflammation slightly but most importantly try to fix our fit on the bike and get some rest.

Google Guyon's canal syndrome is you need more information.


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## rgg01 (Jun 21, 2011)

Turns out that old guy was John Cobb, I'm rubbish with names, but he seems to know what he's talking about


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

rgg01 said:


> Turns out that old guy was John Cobb, I'm rubbish with names, but he seems to know what he's talking about


He makes a damn good saddle also.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

As far as saddle fore and aft adjustment goes, I understand that when riding with your hands on the top of the bars you should be able to pull your hands off the bars and not fall back onto the tops. If your saddle it too far forward you will not be able to do this. Is this correct?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

J-No said:


> Did a search on this and this thread popped up. I am having numbness in my right hand. I think I have it narrowed down to positioning on the hoods. On my 'cross bike I have Salsa Woodchipper bars (super flared, hoods angled inward). No problems. On my road bike I have a regular bar set up and I cannot go 30 min without a numb right hand.
> 
> Set-ups are close, although I have a different saddles. This just came up a year ago.
> 
> ...


If you've been fitted to the Roubaix I'd be hesitant to suggest you try some tweaks yourself. Rather, I think it would be best to visit the shop and discuss this issue with them, seeking input/ suggestions. Determining specifically when the numbness occurs (climbing, descending, cruising) would be helpful as well.

As with many fit issues, there are a number of possibilities here. Although I think it's unlikely, there could be a slight anatomical difference in your right hand causing the discomfort, it's caused primarily by a fit issue or (as todayilearned mentions), improperly bending your wrists (form). 

Seeing as it's only your right hand and you're (presumably) experiencing no other fit issues, I would suggest double checking that the hoods are positioned at the same height. Even a small discrepancy can cause this type of problem. However, since most of us don't ride in perfect symmetry, even if the hoods _are_ positioned the same, consider adjusting the right one down slightly (2-3mm's might be all that's needed) and see if that has a positive effect. 

It's commonly recommended that riders change hand positions frequently, utilizing the tops, bends, hoods and drops. This tends to minimize the time weight is put on any one pressure point. Also, using good quality gloves, bar tape and maintaining a good posture on the bike all help to minimize excessive pressure (and quell road buzz) which can lead to numbness. This includes keeping a slightly loose grip on the bars/ hoods with arms slightly bent. Correct f/r weight distribution is key to a good fit, so your LBS should check saddle adjustments as well.

These suggestions are listed in the order that I'd try them. Seek out assistance from your LBS, then consider your position on the bike, gloves and bar tape, then consider a small adjustment to the right hood. Also, tilting the bars (hoods down) slightly will lower the right hood (and obviously left), and that avoids re-wrapping the bar tape. It might give you an indication if you're on the right track and if so, you could then reposition the bars and lower the right hood (if needed).

Lastly, JMO, but I don't agree that bars positioned too high play a prominent role in hand/ arm numbness, but I do agree that incorrect bars height can cause a number of fit issues.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

redondoaveb said:


> As far as saddle fore and aft adjustment goes, I understand that when riding with your hands on the top of the bars you should be able to pull your hands off the bars and not fall back onto the tops. If your saddle it too far forward you will not be able to do this. Is this correct?


Actually, the same should be accomplished with hands positioned in the drops. A more accurate way of determining f/r weight distribution is described in the link below, under Weight distribution:
CYCLING PERFORMANCE TIPS -


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## J-No (Aug 22, 2007)

Thanks for the tips. Gloves, check, Padded tape, check. I have changed the position of the R hood and will check it out.

Thanks.


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## Fireman aponte (Oct 10, 2011)

Have tryd asking your lbs


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

I get the same once in awhile. 

For me it is gripping to hard with my right hand. Only the right. My left was reconstructed after a crash and i guess I can't grip too tight. 

Switching positions helps me. Go to the drops or move to the front bar. Mix it up.


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## RickJP (Aug 11, 2011)

It seems the problem discussed in this thread is mostly hand numbing. While I've experienced it a tad, it was because of worn out gloves, which a new pair solved.

Now, here's the clincher; I did a 61 mile training ride on Saturday (10/25). I'm doing a metric century ride on the 30th. Before this ride, my longest ride was 37 1/2 miles, with no issues of numbing of any kind.

Now, after my 61 mile ride, which according to cyclemeter was 3:58:52 ride time and 28:42 stopped time, I am experiencing continuing numbing of in my entire reproductive area. 

I don't think the bike fit is an issue, as I only bought my bike (Felt F85) 2 1/2 months ago and it was perfectly fitted at the shop, and for this ride I wore a padded undershort asides from my padded riding shorts, and I even used BodyGlide Anti-Chafing stick. 

Has anyone experienced this kind of numbing after a very long ride? I'm wondering if I may have done some permanent damage.

Thanks!!!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

RickJP said:


> It seems the problem discussed in this thread is mostly hand numbing. While I've experienced it a tad, it was because of worn out gloves, which a new pair solved.
> 
> Now, here's the clincher;* I did a 61 mile training ride on Saturday* (10/25). I'm doing a metric century ride on the 30th. *Before this ride, my longest ride was 37 1/2 miles*, with no issues of numbing of any kind.
> 
> ...


A couple of thoughts...

The longer we ride, the more likely the weakest link in our otherwise 'good fit' will cause discomfort. That stretch from ~37 to 61 miles may have been enough for you to find this out. 

However, before making any fit adjustments, two other points you may want to consider. First, too much padding is sometimes as bad as too little, so you might want to consider foregoing the undershorts. Also, just as it's important to change hand positions frequently, it equally important to get the pressure off your sit bones for a time. This doesn't mean you need to get fully out of the saddle - you can just raise yourself an inch or so for a time. Also, when it's safe to do so, take your hands off the bars, sit back in the saddle and do on bike stretches. Just changing your pelvic angle may help.

Because you mention numbness ahead of the sit bones, I suspect that the extra padding is doing some harm, but wouldn't rule out a slight saddle adjustment if the padding issue doesn't resolve the numbness. First, make sure the saddle is level, if it's tilted up, level it. If it's level, tilting it down _slightly_. If you opt to do this, keep the adjustments small otherwise you could move to much weight forward. 

Lastly, re: the adjustments. If you're uncertain or unfamiliar on how to make these adjustments, discuss this with your LBS fitter and have him/ her make them. The bottom line is that it's important that you remedy this situation to avoid any permanent damage.


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## RickJP (Aug 11, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> A couple of thoughts...
> 
> The longer we ride, the more likely the weakest link in our otherwise 'good fit' will cause discomfort. That stretch from ~37 to 61 miles may have been enough for you to find this out.
> 
> ...


Interesting what you mention about the extra padding. I briefly read an article on Medicine.net by Dr. Richard Weil, which compares too much padding (using the example of a gel saddle cover) to a matress that's too soft. 

The main reason I opted for the undershorts was because when I did my 37 mile ride, I experienced some skin chafing in the same area, wearing only regular boxer briefs and my riding shorts. 

I've read enough to feel somewhat comfortable with adjusting my bike's saddle, but I've opted for taking my bike back to my LBS to re-check my saddle fit. Perhaps the fit wasn't as "perfect" as I thought in the beginning, and as you said the stretch from 37 - 61 miles, was enough to make it obvious.

Interestingly enough, one article mentioned lowering the handlebars below the level of the saddle. The geometry of my bike, at the current fit, places the saddle at about the same level as the handlebars, if only a tad lower. What's your take on this?

Is there much difference between a saddle with a cut-out and one without? The saddle on my bike is the Felt factory race saddle and it does not have a cut-out. 

Thanks again!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

RickJP said:


> Interesting what you mention about the extra padding. I briefly read an article on Medicine.net by Dr. Richard Weil, which compares too much padding (using the example of a gel saddle cover) to a matress that's too soft.
> 
> The main reason I opted for the undershorts was because when I did my 37 mile ride, I experienced some skin chafing in the same area, wearing only regular boxer briefs and my riding shorts.
> 
> ...


There's really no reason to wear anything under well designed cycling shorts. IME chaffing occurs more with more layers or not fitting correctly, so if you're trying to avoid it, stick with minimal layers and your anti-chaffing creams/ stick.

Re: the bar height question, assuming the fitter is competent and set you up as s/he did, I'm not going to second guess them. Textbook answer is that bars positioned at or below saddle height are acceptable. Where specifically depends on a number of factors (fitness/ flexibility, preferences, riding style, etc.).

I didn't offer it in my previous post, but I think that opting to let the fitter tweak this adjustment is a good move, because (albeit secondary to your fit issue) it'll give them a chance to see you on the bike and reassess the bar height. I say secondary because you don't mention any fit issues that would point to an incorrect height (for you).

re: the saddle cut out question, I don't think it alone is going to make or break a saddle being right (or not so right) for an individual. Rather, it's the design and shape/ contours that will dictate that. JMO, but I think if you're now able to ride a couple of hours with little or no saddle discomfort, tweaking is worth a shot before going with another saddle - at least for now.


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## RickJP (Aug 11, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> There's really no reason to wear anything under well designed cycling shorts. IME chaffing occurs more with more layers or not fitting correctly, so if you're trying to avoid it, stick with minimal layers and your anti-chaffing creams/ stick.
> 
> Re: the bar height question, assuming the fitter is competent and set you up as s/he did, I'm not going to second guess them. Textbook answer is that bars positioned at or below saddle height are acceptable. Where specifically depends on a number of factors (fitness/ flexibility, preferences, riding style, etc.).
> 
> ...


Thanks again PJ. 

I'm not a light rider; I'm 197 and also not a giant (5'7"). This is the draw back from having been into gymnastics and weight lifting during my teenager years (I'm 49). 

Not that I question your advise regarding the undershorts, and I didn't mention this before, but fact is that during my 37 mile ride, asides from chafing, I did experience numbing while on the ride and on my 61 mile ride, I didn't, despite that post-ride numbness was inverse. My cycling shorts are Pearl Izumi Quest cycling shorts. I did buy them online, mainly because the price was much better than at my LBS for the same short, but they're well made. And, although I have done a couple 12 1/2 mile rides with nothing underneath my cycling shorts, I do feel a tad more comfortable with something underneath. I have a set of scuba underwear that's 90% lycra and 10% spandex that I've worn before with my shorts. Perhaps it's time I use that instead. 

I don't know why my LBS set up my bike with two headset extenders, but when I see them tomorrow, I'll ask. They set up my saddle with a tad of downward inclination, so I'll inquire on whether the incline is ok. I think it is though, As you say, I'll let them measure and tweak as, and if, necessary.

In all honesty, I wish I had another week before the metric century ride, so I can test your advise of little or nothing under the cycling shorts on the same 61 mile ride I did on Saturday. But, I'm afraid that I'll only have, at most, two days to ride before the MC ride and the rides will be around 20 miles (I don't want to ride 62 miles after a 5 day hiatus). OTOH, I suppose that if my existing numbing does not exacerbate after doing those rides without the cycling undershorts, I may very well have a good idea how not wearing them will work out on the MC ride. 

Thanks again!!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

RickJP said:


> ... I didn't mention this before, but fact is that *during my 37 mile ride, asides from chafing, I did experience numbing while on the ride* and on my 61 mile ride, I didn't, despite that post-ride numbness was inverse. My cycling shorts are Pearl Izumi Quest cycling shorts. I did buy them online, mainly because the price was much better than at my LBS for the same short, but they're well made. And, although I have done a couple 12 1/2 mile rides with nothing underneath my cycling shorts, I do feel a tad more comfortable with something underneath. I have a set of scuba underwear that's 90% lycra and 10% spandex that I've worn before with my shorts. Perhaps it's time I use that instead.
> 
> I don't know why my LBS set up my bike with two headset extenders, but when I see them tomorrow, I'll ask. They set up my saddle with a tad of downward inclination, so I'll inquire on whether the incline is ok. I think it is though, As you say, I'll let them measure and tweak as, and if, necessary.
> 
> ...


Ah, the plot thickens... 

If you've experienced numbness on the 37 mile rides, (IMO) it notches up the likelihood of a fit issue, although your undershorts _could_ be a contributing factor, as well as riding style. Gotta keep changing positions on those longer rides. 

The slight downward saddle tilt is probably ok (for you) since you aren't experiencing any hand/ arm numbness, but the saddle numbness is something the fitter definitely needs to address.

Lastly, assuming a decent fit, I don't think the PI Quest shorts are the problem. Considering the discomfort you experienced on the longer ride with (essentially) double padding, I wouldn't fret over doing the MC with just the PI's. 

Once you see the fitter, let us know what was decided. I'm always interested in hearing about different remedies for assorted fit issues.


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## RickJP (Aug 11, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Ah, the plot thickens...
> 
> If you've experienced numbness on the 37 mile rides, (IMO) it notches up the likelihood of a fit issue, although your undershorts _could_ be a contributing factor, as well as riding style. Gotta keep changing positions on those longer rides.
> 
> ...


Will do PJ.


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## RickJP (Aug 11, 2011)

As it turns out, the saddle positioning was forward about 1cm too much, and the saddle angle was down about 1 degree too much nose low. I also replaced my factory Felt SL road saddle with a Specialized Avatar Expert (in black, but my LBS is getting it in white to match the accents of my bike). The difference between the two was highly noticeable. 

Once the fore/aft was properly adjusted, the line & weight dropped a tad more forward (about 1/2 cm) than desired. But, according to the fitter, that's all he could move the saddle back given the height of the seat post, which yeilded a perfect angle at the bottom of the pedal stroke. I suppose this could suggest the size of my bike may be a tad too small for me (it's a 51cm). However, the standover height is perfect, so he tweaked things a bit, including the positioning of the cleats, to make the fit better. He said that I'm right at the threshold between a 51 and a 54 on the F85, so they had opted for recommending the smaller size. I suppose that if Felt had made a 52 cm bike on the F85, it would have been my pick. 

After the adjustment, one of the things I noticed right away was that my back was noticeably more straight than before and that switching from riding on the hoods to the drops did not involve much more than a slight effort of bending forward. There was also less pressure on the hands and it was a lot more comfortable to hold bent elbows at either the hoods or the drops.

Hope you don't take offense to this JP, but I double checked your advice about wearing nothing under the riding shorts with several other people. Everyone agrees with you, so that's how I'm doing my MC next Sunday. 

Now the bike is getting its 90 day new bike check and it should be all set for Sunday's ride.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

RickJP said:


> As it turns out, the saddle positioning was forward about 1cm too much, and the saddle angle was down about 1 degree too much nose low. I also replaced my factory Felt SL road saddle with a Specialized Avatar Expert (in black, but my LBS is getting it in white to match the accents of my bike). The difference between the two was highly noticeable.
> 
> Once the fore/aft was properly adjusted, the line & weight dropped a tad more forward (about 1/2 cm) than desired. But, according to the fitter, that's all he could move the saddle back given the height of the seat post, which yeilded a perfect angle at the bottom of the pedal stroke. I suppose this could suggest the size of my bike may be a tad too small for me (it's a 51cm). However, the standover height is perfect, so he tweaked things a bit, including the positioning of the cleats, to make the fit better. He said that I'm right at the threshold between a 51 and a 54 on the F85, so they had opted for recommending the smaller size. I suppose that if Felt had made a 52 cm bike on the F85, it would have been my pick.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Thanks for the update.

Generally speaking, the initial fore/ aft/ tilt saddle positions you describe would move rider weight forward, contributing to hand/ arm discomfort, so it doesn't really coincide with your experiencing numbness ahead of the sit bones. That given, I suspect that the primary problem was the extra padding worn, but if the new saddle is noticeably more comfortable, the fit/ contours of the OE saddle could have been a contributing factor.

The adjustments your fitter made are generally accepted for most recreational riders, so I think they'll have a positive effect on your comfort/ efficiency. IMO it's a positive sign that s/he set you up to have all bar positions comfortable, and all should be utilized.

I didn't really follow the remarks about saddle height and aft adjustment for two reasons. First, the rails are usually the limiter and second, as you move the saddle back, it has to come down a little to compensate for ST angle. 

That aside, if your fitter meant that the post is positioned at the minimum insertion line, then yes, the frame is probably small for you. That's a guess, because I don't know your stem length/ angle/ spacer set up - and haven't seen you on the bike. You may want to ask the fitter about the possibility of using a seat post with more setback, because that would solve the too far forward KOPS position. 

No offense taken on double checking anything I offer here. The more opinions/ info you gather, the more likely you (and others) can make an educated decision. 

Good luck on your MC. Let us know how it goes...


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## mrleon82 (Oct 27, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> That's not quite right. Using a weighted string (or similar) with the pedal at 9 (and 3), dropping the string from bottom center of your kneecap, the weight should fall slightly behind the pedal spindle. I start at about 5 mm's, with the measurement starting at center of spindle, so the weight would be slightly behind the center.
> 
> Follow the dotted line....
> View attachment 236638



Great info..thanks!


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## 9er (Oct 26, 2011)

Great thread. Thanks for all who contribute. I've had several of these issues and now have a direction towards correcting them.


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## RickJP (Aug 11, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the update.
> 
> Generally speaking, the initial fore/ aft/ tilt saddle positions you describe would move rider weight forward, contributing to hand/ arm discomfort, so it doesn't really coincide with your experiencing numbness ahead of the sit bones. That given, I suspect that the primary problem was the extra padding worn, but if the new saddle is noticeably more comfortable, the fit/ contours of the OE saddle could have been a contributing factor.
> 
> ...


I don't think the seat post is positioned at the minimum insertion line, but then again I'm not completely sure it isn't either, since the seat post height has not changed since I took delivery of the bike. It's possible though. 

At any rate, I couldn't handle the Avatar saddle; way too mushy and uncomfortable, even on a quick 12 mile ride. So yesterda I went back to my LBS and they swapped it for a Toupe +. Tried it today on a quick 8 mile ride and I think this one is going to do it. We'll see how it feels on Sunday.

Thanks for the good wishes. I'll post after the MC. Looks like the now defunct Hurricane Rina (it's now a tropical storm) is not going to do anything to mess things up this weekend for us. That's always a good thing.

"Talk" soon :thumbsup:


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