# Hello Sandbagger



## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

Winner of 40+ Bs
http://www.crossresults.com/?n=racers&sn=r&rID=1697


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## vegan (Sep 24, 2007)

There seems to have been a lot of that. I'm not sure it is fair to signal out one person and not post links regarding the others.


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## tomk96 (Sep 24, 2007)

sounds like USAC changed the B's to open.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

How can you race the "B's" as a cat 1?


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

Fair or not on my part, the guy is pro and raced in the Bs, that certainly isn't fair. He also beat some guys I know, so I'm cynical. It's an accomplishment to win any race, good for him, but still...

It makes me wonder why they have these races. Or how they determine who is B/masters/elite and if registration is moderated.


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## vegan (Sep 24, 2007)

I would love to see a better way that they separate these races. I was surprised/dismayed to see quite a few "Elite" racers that either won or took one of the top spots for the "B" races.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

B at Natz is a non championship...and therefore Open race. Anyone can enter it. A lot of folks use it for a warm up.


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

vegan said:


> I would love to see a better way that they separate these races. I was surprised/dismayed to see quite a few "Elite" racers that either won or took one of the top spots for the "B" races.



I agree. It seems the system is setup to rely on personal responsibility and public floggings. Meaning, it's his responsibility as an elite state CX champion to race with his peers at nationals, and our responsibility to out sand baggers on interweb forums. I actually feel a bit guilty after your post for singling him out... 

A better way is to use something like the crossresults.com system. I understand it isn't ColinRs responsibility to manage it all, but perhaps the USAC should look at this type of tracking system or fund CR. My two cents.


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

the mayor said:


> B at Natz is a non championship...and therefore Open race. Anyone can enter it. A lot of folks use it for a warm up.


Oh. I didn't know that. (I'm not being sarcastic)
I thought it was designed for Bs, or CAT 3/4 as a way to participate, other than drinking Mirror Pond's  at Nats.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

hoogerland said:


> Oh. I didn't know that. (I'm not being sarcastic)
> I thought it was designed for Bs, or CAT 3/4 as a way to participate, other than drinking Mirror Pond's  at Nats.


And now you do! ( I am being sarcastic)
Although...I think it would be better without the fast guys.
But, you have older masters who are 3's that are winning championships...
so you'd have to make it a 4 only race???
It's non championship...just a sh1tz and giggles race..which gets a few more guys out there and helps the promoter make some much needed $$$$

I just noticed 55+ guy...who got 2nd in the champ race...did his 2nd race of the day in the 40+B = tough guy!


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## ZenNMotion (May 28, 2004)

Under different (safer) conditions it might have been interesting to reverse the call up order for the B's, if they're gonna sandbag, make em work for it... But a more realistic solution might be in scheduling- ie back-to-back B races and championship races. I'd think twice about a "warmup race" with no recovery time to the real deal. Or just limit registration for higher category riders in B fields, don't open until 2 weeks out. Of course, that requires a competent registration system-


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

No matter who wins B at Natz ...they get called a sand bagger.

At the 2001 Natz in Baltimore....New England B racer ...and head of Boston Cross, Mark Abramson, printed up a "Sand Bagger " Jersey to give to the winner of the B race.

Guess who won?

Mark Abramson....who is now the Board Prez at USAC
Here's a pic http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1303874#poststop


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

National Championship B race is a contradiction in terms?


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

the mayor said:


> No matter who wins B at Natz ...they get called a sand bagger.
> 
> At the 2001 Natz in Baltimore....New England B racer ...and head of Boston Cross, Mark Abramson, printed up a "Sand Bagger " Jersey to give to the winner of the B race.
> 
> ...



That's hilarious.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

pretender said:


> National Championship B race is a contradiction in terms?


Bingo!
Like the Beginner/Cat 3 mtb Nat'l championship( one of which was won by a guy who has been racing, all be it, very slowly, for 15 years.


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## tomk96 (Sep 24, 2007)

pretender said:


> National Championship B race is a contradiction in terms?


sorta, but we have national championship races by categories for other forms of cycling.

i don't think it is unreasonable to have non-elite races at nationals that aren't masters races.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

hoogerland said:


> That's hilarious.


As is much of the history..or myth... of cross.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Side note: Ryan Trebon signed up for the SS race today.
He didn't start because it's too icey...but would that be sand bagging?
It is a NON championship class.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

ZenNMotion said:


> Under different (safer) conditions it might have been interesting to reverse the call up order for the B's, if they're gonna sandbag, make em work for it... But a more realistic solution might be in scheduling- ie back-to-back B races and championship races. I'd think twice about a "warmup race" with no recovery time to the real deal. Or just limit registration for higher category riders in B fields, don't open until 2 weeks out. Of course, that requires a competent registration system-


In some ( or maybe all) of the B races yesterday...they called up riders by random number.

At Masters Worlds...they call up the top guys from last year...and then pick a random number. so if they pick 31, 31 lines up, 32 next and so on...with 30 being the last to the line. They used to draw numbers from a hat...but it started taking too long.


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

the mayor said:


> Side note: Ryan Trebon signed up for the SS race today.
> He didn't start because it's too icey...but would that be sand bagging?
> It is a NON championship class.


Doesn't apply. If there was a B race for SS and he raced it then yes - sand bagger. Since there is just an open SS race (as far as I know) then no - if he won he would deserve to be SS national champion.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

hoogerland said:


> Doesn't apply. If there was a B race for SS and he raced it then yes - sand bagger. Since there is just an open SS race (as far as I know) then no - if he won he would deserve to be SS national champion.


But he wouldn't be SS Nat'l Champ....because it is NOT a championship class.
It is just an open race...just like B is at Natz


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

the big question is - can you run disc brakes in the B races?


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

d2p said:


> the big question is - can you run disc brakes in the B races?


It's not a UCI event...so....


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## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*warm-up*



the mayor said:


> B at Natz is a non championship...and therefore Open race. Anyone can enter it. A lot of folks use it for a warm up.


I think if they were using it as a "warm-up" race, they would drop out before they finished (last lap). He/They were racing to win, period!

Michael


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

KMan said:


> I think if they were using it as a "warm-up" race, they would drop out before they finished (last lap). He/They were racing to win, period!
> 
> Michael


it's an open race, period.
Anyone can enter,period.
yes...they were racing to win,period.
I think I'm getting a period,period!


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

People are getting hung up on the "B" title of the race. If it is an open race, it is an open race. I'm a Cat 2. If I was going to travel all the way out to Bend and I had the chance to race another race other than my Master's Championship race, you are darn tootin' I would. Just because people think the "B race" at Nationals should be for 3s and 4s, doesn't change the facts.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

the mayor said:


> And now you do! ( I am being sarcastic)
> Although...I think it would be better without the fast guys.
> But, you have older masters who are 3's that are winning championships...
> so you'd have to make it a 4 only race???
> ...


Yep, he's tough. Makes you wonder if he'd have done better, or worse, if it hadn't been his second race of the day. 

Anyway, as to the issue of sandbagging in the B races. There's a simple solution that doesn't have anything to do with the relative category of the entrants: you can either race the non-championship B race OR the championship race for your particular category/age group, but not both.


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> People are getting hung up on the "B" title of the race.Just because people think the "B race" at Nationals should be for 3s and 4s, doesn't change the facts.



I think we all got that point. The mayor made it clear and informed us that the race is actually an open race. The issue that most people have is with what the race could be. And that is a race for those outside of the top two categories, a citizens race if you will. The pro's shouldn't be able to use it for practice. You mentioned "Cat 2" but the guy in question is actually a Cat 1 and he won the Illinois state championships as a Cat 1. The 'B' race is what it is, but I think it could be improved.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

tomk96 said:


> i don't think it is unreasonable to have non-elite races at nationals that aren't masters races.


It's not unreasonable to have non-elite races at nationals, but it IS ridiculous to let elite racers compete in them. If the elite racers want to ride them as a warm-up, they should at least have the decency to drop out on the last lap and allow the true "B" racers to get a little glory/satisfaction. If the winner of that race takes any satisfaction whatsoever from winning that race, he should question why he's racing in the first place.


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

A "citizens race" at Nationals! That's rich.


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## ooboohabanero (Nov 4, 2009)

i still wonder how it is that the beginner's category often has plenty of folks that are part of sponsored teams...wow 

i'd like to get a jersey and race for a team...:cryin:


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

i'm gonna go make a sandwich. this thread could get interesting.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

yo mamma said:


> If the winner of that race takes any satisfaction whatsoever from winning that race, he should question why he's racing in the first place.


I didn't compete this year at all, but as a spectator I'm still unclear on what satisfaction any racer gets from winning a B or C race in the first place. "Yeah, i'm faster than everyone...well, except all the guys who are too fast to be in my race." What does that even mean? Taking pleasure in age group or gender group wins is one thing, but "B" races? It's just preparation/qualification to get to the top class and if you aren't going to make it to the top (i won't) then it should just be for fun and personal challenge and the presence of anyone else in the race shouldn't change that.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Sandbagging is a long-established Midwest tradition. What's there to be ashamed of? There were several folks with UCI licenses racing in the other B cats.

I always thought the spirit of the Bs was to give those who aren't going to be competitive in the Masters races a shot at racing at Nats without being lapped and pulled too early. That and provide a lot of exrta revenue for the organizers.

That's not written anywhere, but the title of the race does give a clue. If folks want to use the Bs as openers, there's no way to stop them. My proposal: Anyone who races the Bs must start behind those who didn't race Bs for the Masters champs. That should work pretty effectively. 

SS is there for anyone who wants a warmup race. Could also be an idea to introduce some sort of an open race with decent prizemoney to give those under 30 and anyone else who wishes the chance to race more than once over the weekend and some of the elite folks a chance to get to know the course at race speed..

Would be great to run the Masters 30-34 race on the morning of the elites as well.

Flame away.


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## ooboohabanero (Nov 4, 2009)

yo mamma said:


> It's not unreasonable to have non-elite races at nationals, but it IS ridiculous to let elite racers compete in them. If the elite racers want to ride them as a warm-up, they should at least have the decency to drop out on the last lap and allow the true "B" racers to get a little glory/satisfaction. If the winner of that race takes any satisfaction whatsoever from winning that race, he should question why he's racing in the first place.



just post their faces and results everywhere. heckle them. hand them empty beer cans. etc.


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## jerry_in_VT (Oct 13, 2006)

Let me just say that it is RIDICULOUS to have a "Masters" 30-34 race. That is not MASTERS. That is PRIME TIME.

I feel better now.


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## tomk96 (Sep 24, 2007)

ooboohabanero said:


> i still wonder how it is that the beginner's category often has plenty of folks that are part of sponsored teams...wow
> 
> i'd like to get a jersey and race for a team...:cryin:


most teams/clubs have riders of all skill levels.


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## ooboohabanero (Nov 4, 2009)

tomk96 said:


> most teams/clubs have riders of all skill levels.



so basically anyone can join a team/club? just pay the price, get the jersey, race? 

of course, the carbon frames in cat 4 races don't help solve the sandbuggery...


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

carlosflanders said:


> Sandbagging is a long-established Midwest tradition.


The worst sandbagging I have seen (via the crossresults search) was a guy who won 8 Cat 3 races and another who had ~10 top 3 finishes in Cat 4. Both were in a Wisconsin series. 

So you might be on to something.


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## caseyls (Sep 18, 2007)

Step 1: Make a JV National Champion Jersey

Step 2: Make Winner Wear Jersey For 2 Years at Every USAC race they enter


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

colinr said:


> The worst sandbagging I have seen (via the crossresults search) was a guy who won 8 Cat 3 races and another who had ~10 top 3 finishes in Cat 4. Both were in a Wisconsin series.
> 
> So you might be on to something.


WI was pretty good this year about catting up. All the strong 4s catted up to 3 in good time. Several went from 3 to 2. Don't know if it was voluntary or an official got embarrassed at previous year's shenanigans and decided to enforce the rules. Great for me as I was able to grab a couple of podiums in November before catting up (voluntarily).

However, it gets pretty embarrassing at times here in the Midwest, both in CX and on the road. There was one cat 4 guy who won 50% of all RRs/crits he entered by soloing off the front.Generated a bazillion complaints until even the officials got embarrassed - and that's a high threshold. It got so bad that every time he went OTF the whole pack would combine to chase him down - otherwise he was gone.

Although all those 'baggers definitely did the B race for practice - the idea that a Midwest rider with a UCI license would be even mildly embarrassed at winning a Bs race simply is not on the radar. It would be more embarrassing not to win.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

carlosflanders said:


> Although all those 'baggers definitely did the B race for practice - the idea that a Midwest rider with a UCI license would be even mildly embarrassed at winning a Bs race simply is not on the radar. It would be more embarrassing not to win.


No one was saying he should be embarrassed to win, but rather he shouldn't receive any satisfaction from winning. 

I would say, however, he should be embarrassed to enter a B race, no matter that it was an "open" event.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> A "citizens race" at Nationals! That's rich.


It would only be "rich" if they gave a jersey for it.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

ooboohabanero said:


> so basically anyone can join a team/club? just pay the price, get the jersey, race?
> ..


Yep, didn't you know that? 

Have you been hiding out in a cave in Afghanistan or something?


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

jerry_in_VT said:


> Let me just say that it is RIDICULOUS to have a "Masters" 30-34 race. That is not MASTERS. That is PRIME TIME.
> 
> I feel better now.


Agreed.


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## locobaylor (Mar 11, 2008)

the mayor said:


> Bingo!
> Like the Beginner/Cat 3 mtb Nat'l championship( one of which was won by a guy who has been racing, all be it, very slowly, for 15 years.


Hey now, I also won the Cat 3 mtb "national championship." This was my first year racing, and out of all the cat 3 19-29 racers that lined up, I was the fastest. Let's not make everyone feel like they suck just because they don't race cat 1.


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## ooboohabanero (Nov 4, 2009)

yo mamma said:


> Yep, didn't you know that?
> 
> Have you been hiding out in a cave in Afghanistan or something?



well, i've been training on Mt. Ararat and some in undislosed regions of Afghanistan...(part of an XC black ops brigade that is top secret....  )....

ha, but no, seriously, i've always been a solo XC mountain biker...dropped out for quite awhile...never competed....jumped back in this summer...have ridden nearly every day since july 1...jumped into CX early november...

a whole new world to me...so, all i have to do (if i want to) is find an area club (same as a 'team' ? i wouldn't think so), pay the fee, hang out, ride with them, enter races?

of course, i entered my 3 races under fun (faux?) team names since i didn't want to leave a blank....


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

My sense of the situtation isn't that these guys are looking to sand-bag, but looking to get the most racing they can out of the weekend, given the time and money involved in getting there. I've done the cross-country trip once for Nationals - out to Napa - I wanted to race as much as I could that weekend.


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

jerry_in_VT said:


> Let me just say that it is RIDICULOUS to have a "Masters" 30-34 race. That is not MASTERS. That is PRIME TIME.
> 
> I feel better now.



I agree too and "ridiculous" is a very appropriate way to put it.


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> A "citizens race" at Nationals! That's rich.



Dude??? I wrote "...citizens race if you will" and used the term "citizen" as a euphemism for everyone non-elite. So literal  .


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## gregdogg62 (Aug 9, 2004)

The rider in question came all the way from Chicago, so I completely understand that he would want to race as much as possible. That being said it probably does stink for some of the other racers that made the effort to get to Bend only to get pulled 20 minutes into their race. I think it would be cool, if they added a Cat 1/2 event for riders that don't contest the pro national championship event, and make the B event for 3's and 4's. There is such a big gap between the real pros and a rider like Scott who works 40+ hours a week. He is normally one of the last guys to finish on the lead lap at UCI events. Sadly, I am happy to finish a half lap down to him in the Chicago series  Of course finding time in the schedule might make this difficult though.


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

I understand people wanting to race as much as possible but the "B" races should be for "B" level racers.


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## ooboohabanero (Nov 4, 2009)

i get it...but still sounds greedy since one can displace the many...just go ride and pretend it's a race. i do. and i still usually finish in the bottom 1/2...


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

My solution would be to ditch the B moniker and call it an open race which is what it is. Only limiter, you can't also race the Elite race on Sunday. So any "pro" master who isn't racing Sunday's Elite race, feel free... Am I wrong in thinking that is the current situtation anyway, just the "B" thing is putting people's panties in a bunch.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> My solution would be to ditch the B moniker and call it an open race which is what it is. Only limiter, you can't also race the Elite race on Sunday. So any "pro" master who isn't racing Sunday's Elite race, feel free... Am I wrong in thinking that is the current situtation anyway, just the "B" thing is putting people's panties in a bunch.


I think you're on to something. I know from talking to a few folks 'round here that when they travel out to Nationals, they think of the B race as something for the folks who aren't competitive for or interested in the championship event to do before fulfilling their spectator role on Sunday. By calling it a B event, it misleads them to believe them it's just a bunch of folks like themselves. 

But, changing the name doesn't change the fact that, for those folks, they're really racing against the same guys (or guys just like 'em) who've been whuppin them all season. To be fair to the true B racers, the folks competing in the 'jersey' events shouldn't be allowed to race in the B races. 

So, what I'd suggest, is instead of changing the name to reflect the 'open' aspect of the race, change the entry qualifications so that it's a true B race.


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

yo mamma said:


> But, changing the name doesn't change the fact that, for those folks, they're really racing against the same guys (or guys just like 'em) who've been whuppin them all season. To be fair to the true B racers, the folks competing in the 'jersey' events shouldn't be allowed to race in the B races.
> 
> So, what I'd suggest, is instead of changing the name to reflect the 'open' aspect of the race, change the entry qualifications so that it's a true B race.



I'd go the other way for an event like Nationals weekend. Limit the categories to 1-3. Limit the fields sizes to 100. They'll never do that but a boy can dream.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

make the B races claiming races at $500 or $1,000.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> I'd go the other way for an event like Nationals weekend. Limit the categories to 1-3. Limit the fields sizes to 100. They'll never do that but a boy can dream.


An effective way of cutting attendance in half. Let's make the event as exciting as track nationals.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> I'd go the other way for an event like Nationals weekend. Limit the categories to 1-3. Limit the fields sizes to 100. They'll never do that but a boy can dream.


What you're proposing is what they USED to do for the championship races (at least for the road events, can't speak to whether they've ever done that for 'cross), not the non-championship events. From what I recall, wasn't the whole purpose of having a non-championship 'B' event in the first place to allow the non-championship racers an opportunity to come out against similar racers? 

Why is it they don't hold road races or crits a couple of days before the championship events so the competitors can have a warm up race two days before their events?


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

[/QUOTE]Why is it they don't hold road races or crits a couple of days before the championship events so the competitors can have a warm up race two days before their events?[/QUOTE]

Well they do. Its currently called the B race


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

Why is it they don't hold road races or crits a couple of days before the championship events so the competitors can have a warm up race two days before their events?[/QUOTE]

Well they do. Its currently called the B race [/QUOTE]

I guess it just goes to show you I don't go to road nats, either.


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## roseyscot (Jan 30, 2005)

sandbagging or not, these B races should NOT be open to anyone holding a UCI license. If you are fit enough to race ANY UCI level event, you are too fit for the B race. It should not be an open race. The fact that USAC fails to enforce any limits is because the extra work required to do so, and the decreased entry fee cash would hurt their (lazy) bottom line.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

roseyscot said:


> sandbagging or not, these B races should NOT be open to anyone holding a UCI license. If you are fit enough to race ANY UCI level event, you are too fit for the B race. It should not be an open race. The fact that USAC fails to enforce any limits is because the extra work required to do so, and the decreased entry fee cash would hurt their (lazy) bottom line.


What is a UCI license? Hint: there is no such thing.
USAC doesn't put on the race...a local promoter does. Although USAC does get residual money from every entry...most of it goes to the promoter, who needs every penny. Very easy to lose your shirt putting on Natz.
The B race at Natz is just a sh1tz and giggles Non Championship OPEN race...good for those who just want to be there...and to warm up for other races.No Champ Jersey, just a little cash making time filler.
And none of us are even at Natz...so what does it matter?


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## sbsbiker (Mar 29, 2008)

Amidst all this sandbagging discussion, could someone explain to me why J.Baker, who holds a PRO licence, and is currently racing on the road as sponsered Pro, with top ten Cat1 results on the road is allowed to race for the Elite masters national jersey? I fully understand it's the "Elite" Masters race but i thought USAC rules prevented a licenced Pro (elite) from 'bagging a age group national championship. I have no real beef with his result, I have no chance competeing at this level, my beef is with USAC for allowing Elites to race in masters.
This means that Lance could show up and would be allowed to race in his age group, and snag a national champ jersey. Yes?


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

I thought this thread was going to be about me.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

sbsbiker said:


> Amidst all this sandbagging discussion, could someone explain to me why J.Baker, who holds a PRO licence, and is currently racing on the road as sponsered Pro, with top ten Cat1 results on the road is allowed to race for the Elite masters national jersey? I fully understand it's the "Elite" Masters race but i thought USAC rules prevented a licenced Pro (elite) from 'bagging a age group national championship. I have no real beef with his result, I have no chance competeing at this level, my beef is with USAC for allowing Elites to race in masters.
> This means that Lance could show up and would be allowed to race in his age group, and snag a national champ jersey. Yes?



When in doubt, read the rules. Specifically, to be disqualified from racing masters nationals, a rider would have to meet the following:

_Are or have been a member of any type of UCI team in 2009 Have ridden an elite UCI World Cup, Olympic Games, World Championship or Continental Championship in the same discipline in 2009._

Baker, while holding a Pro license, is not a member of a UCI team and has not ridden an elite UCI World Cup, etc...


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## tomk96 (Sep 24, 2007)

bmxhacksaw said:


> I thought this thread was going to be about me.


it's not about road racing.


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## ts692418 (Dec 15, 2009)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> My sense of the situtation isn't that these guys are looking to sand-bag, but looking to get the most racing they can out of the weekend, given the time and money involved in getting there. I've done the cross-country trip once for Nationals - out to Napa - I wanted to race as much as I could that weekend.



I'm a Cat 3 racer and raced the B race at Nats, so I guess next year I'll race with the elites so I can get the most bang for my buck. I'm sure J Page wouldn't mind me getting in his way next year as he laps me. Afterall, he spoke so highly of racing in the US and of the great sacrifice he made in coming back from Europe to race with his lowely countrymen.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

ts692418 said:


> I'm a Cat 3 racer and raced the B race at Nats, so I guess next year I'll race with the elites so I can get the most bang for my buck. I'm sure J Page wouldn't mind me getting in his way next year as he laps me. Afterall, he spoke so highly of racing in the US and of the great sacrifice he made in coming back from Europe to race with his lowely countrymen.


I know you are joking, but just in case someone misses the sarcasm: any Cat 3 lining up in the elite race at Nats should get kicked in the chamois.


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## ts692418 (Dec 15, 2009)

It would hurt, my chamois was frozen anyways.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

colinr said:


> I know you are joking, but just in case someone misses the sarcasm: any Cat 3 lining up in the elite race at Nats should get kicked in the chamois.


Aside from the race rules not allowing it, I don't see where it would be any worse than a cat 1 lining up in the B race.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

yo mamma said:


> Aside from the race rules not allowing it, I don't see where it would be any worse than a cat 1 lining up in the B race.


It's worse because the B race is a sideshow. We can debate the horror of a cat 1 in the B race all day, but ultimately it doesn't matter who wins the B race(s) at Nationals, because no one cares and no one remembers.

But if a lapped Cat 3 decides the national championship... that's a travesty.


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## ts692418 (Dec 15, 2009)

Can't argue with that, I don't even remember who won the B race and I was in it!


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## murphy1 (Sep 4, 2008)

gregdogg62 said:


> The rider in question came all the way from Chicago, so I completely understand that he would want to race as much as possible. That being said it probably does stink for some of the other racers that made the effort to get to Bend only to get pulled 20 minutes into their race. I think it would be cool, if they added a Cat 1/2 event for riders that don't contest the pro national championship event, and make the B event for 3's and 4's. There is such a big gap between the real pros and a rider like Scott who works 40+ hours a week. He is normally one of the last guys to finish on the lead lap at UCI events. Sadly, I am happy to finish a half lap down to him in the Chicago series  Of course finding time in the schedule might make this difficult though.



Dude- you gotta be joking. Because he travelled all the way from Chicago to race, holding a Cat 1 license its ok for him to race and win a B race? Thats silly. He could have raced the elites and his age class masters race. That should be enough. If he wanted another race that weekend then he should race the single speed. Anyone who is a cat 1 doesnt need to get their $ worth out of a weekend. Thats nuts. We all work a lot of hours and bust ass. There is a big gap between the real pro riders and him because they do it as a job but he didnt get the ability to race with them because he sits on his ass and doesn't train. He's light years ahead of a cat 3 and some cat 2's. Im a cat 2 and there were local pro's that I race against in that race who got their butts kicked who hands down would kick my ass back home. 

Didnt he also race cross vegas?


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## ts692418 (Dec 15, 2009)

pacificaslim said:


> I didn't compete this year at all, but as a spectator I'm still unclear on what satisfaction any racer gets from winning a B or C race in the first place. "Yeah, i'm faster than everyone...well, except all the guys who are too fast to be in my race." What does that even mean? Taking pleasure in age group or gender group wins is one thing, but "B" races? It's just preparation/qualification to get to the top class and if you aren't going to make it to the top (i won't) then it should just be for fun and personal challenge and the presence of anyone else in the race shouldn't change that.


The presence an elite level sandbagger changes things cuz alot of the B racers got lapped by the sandbagger and thus thier race got cut short so he could get his warm-up race in. However, I do agree, it is about fun and it's fun to be competive in a race. But your line of thinking, that there is no satisfaction in winning a B race, is like saying there should be no satisfaction in winning a city basketball league championship since it isn't the NBA.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

ts692418 said:


> The presence an elite level sandbagger changes things cuz alot of the B racers got lapped by the sandbagger and thus thier race got cut short so he could get his warm-up race in. However, I do agree, it is about fun and it's fun to be competive in a race. But your line of thinking, that there is no satisfaction in winning a B race, is like saying there should be no satisfaction in winning a city basketball league championship since it isn't the NBA.


I doubt Shack or Kobe would take any satisfaction in winning a city league championship.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

gregdogg62 said:


> The rider in question came all the way from Chicago, so I completely understand that he would want to race as much as possible. That being said it probably does stink for some of the other racers that made the effort to get to Bend only to get pulled 20 minutes into their race. I think it would be cool, if they added a Cat 1/2 event for riders that don't contest the pro national championship event, and make the B event for 3's and 4's. There is such a big gap between the real pros and a rider like Scott who works 40+ hours a week. He is normally one of the last guys to finish on the lead lap at UCI events. Sadly, I am happy to finish a half lap down to him in the Chicago series  Of course finding time in the schedule might make this difficult though.



Nobody is forcing him to actually win the race, or line up at the front. heck, I raced the 4bs in Chicago last year and, because it wasn't my first year racing, I lined up at the back every time, rolled around for a lap and then tried to catch as many as I could. When I got into the top 10 I turned it off, let a couple of people pass me who were actually racing the series and kept out of the way.

If a lousy 4s rider can avoid 'bagging the 4bs, then surely a Cat 1 can do the decent thing in the nats B race. Not a lot of glory in proving that you can beat up on a bunch of Cat 3s.

However, the Midwest certainly distinguished itself at bagging the Bs this year. Makes ya proud!


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## murphy1 (Sep 4, 2008)

flat out the guy is a cheese ball. Sorry but per my earlier post, if he wanted to race more he could have done 2 races not 3 or done singlespeed. He wanted to get as much racing in as possible, how about the B's who travelled all that way and got 3 laps in. Plus his team says sram factory- so did he even have to pay? A guy who races cross vegas has no business in the B's. 

Im a to the point guy, if I was there watching my friends in the B's and knew this guy was doing this I would call him out right then. Thats BS and it has nothing to do with winning or losing, its just arrogant. Sorry dude you can try to justify it all you want- thats just unacceptable. 
Thats the last Ill talk about this.... 

PS:Nationals was fun wasn't it?


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

I just don't get all the venom. It was an open race. If "B riders" didn't know that, then that is on them. Far as I know, nobody hid their identity - wore different team clothing other than their own, registered under an assumed name or license #. Guys eligible to race entered. Some of them were really good. One of them won. Get over it.


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## ts692418 (Dec 15, 2009)

yo mamma said:


> I doubt Shack or Kobe would take any satisfaction in winning a city league championship.



But I would. That was the point.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

ts692418 said:


> But I would. That was the point.


So, would you feel good about picking on a little kid, too? 

Hey, winning (even in a fight against a kid) is the point, right???


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

murphy1 said:


> flat out the guy is a cheese ball. Sorry but per my earlier post, if he wanted to race more he could have done 2 races not 3 or done singlespeed. He wanted to get as much racing in as possible, how about the B's who travelled all that way and got 3 laps in. Plus his team says sram factory- so did he even have to pay? A guy who races cross vegas has no business in the B's.
> 
> Im a to the point guy, if I was there watching my friends in the B's and knew this guy was doing this I would call him out right then. Thats BS and it has nothing to do with winning or losing, its just arrogant. Sorry dude you can try to justify it all you want- thats just unacceptable.
> Thats the last Ill talk about this....
> ...


Well, here's one more point, one more perspective to consider: until such time that they (USACycling) takes steps to insure that the "B" races are truly "B" races instead of just an open race that doesn't count for a championship, anyone who travels to nationals to compete only in that event should either know they are gonna get their butt whipped or they're just delusional. No sense *****ing about what you knew was going to happen, now is there? Any true "B" rider that traveled all the way to Bend to do that race, expecting to do well in it, is nuts.


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## murphy1 (Sep 4, 2008)

yo mamma said:


> Well, here's one more point, one more perspective to consider: until such time that they (USACycling) takes steps to insure that the "B" races are truly "B" races instead of just an open race that doesn't count for a championship, anyone who travels to nationals to compete only in that event should either know they are gonna get their butt whipped or they're just delusional. No sense *****ing about what you knew was going to happen, now is there? Any true "B" rider that traveled all the way to Bend to do that race, expecting to do well in it, is nuts.



What's your point exactly?


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

murphy1 said:


> What's your point exactly?


Assuming you're not being 'funny', I'll be a 'to the point' kinda guy and not sugarcoat it for you: anyone who traveled all the way to Bend to race in the B race, expecting it to be a "B" race is a dumbass.


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## StevenG (Nov 19, 2005)

Although I could really care less as I don't do nationals, maybe if it is close to home some year. I think if you do the elite races you should not be allowed to do the B race or even the Masters races at that. Pick your category and go with it.


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

StevenG said:


> Although I could really care less as I don't do nationals, maybe if it is close to home some year. I think if you do the elite races you should not be allowed to do the B race or even the Masters races at that. Pick your category and go with it.


I agree with this in theory but it ain't gonna happen. More entries mean more $$$. I wouldn't have a chance at winning the B race ever and I would be kinda pissed if after all the expense involved in getting to Nats being pulled way early because an elite racer lapped me. But it's an open race so you have to deal. 

Jeff


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

ZoomBoy said:


> I would be kinda pissed if after all the expense involved in getting to Nats being pulled way early because an elite racer lapped me. But it's an open race so you have to deal. Jeff



I would contend that when you start getting fields over 100 in a cross race, lapped riders are going to be a problem even without "elite racers". Look at the race that started this debate - 61 guys finished on the lead lap. That doesn't sound bad to me. I looked at the guy who finished 4th. - looks like he raced 35+, Cat 3 or SS most of the 2009 season. He would have lapped nearly as many guys. IMO, if guys are PO'd about getting pulled, their beef is with the promoter/system allowing gads of riders to enter a race, not with the hand full of Cat 1s and 2s that enter an open race.

I guess while I keep up with this discussion is that to me calling someone a sandbagger is a very negative thing. A kin to calling someone a cheater. For me it is someone who purposefully skirts the rules in order to get a result. Not the case here. And that fact that some people seem to be singling this guy out as the sole reason lots of riders got pulled. Again not the case.


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## ts692418 (Dec 15, 2009)

yo mamma said:


> So, would you feel good about picking on a little kid, too?
> 
> Hey, winning (even in a fight against a kid) is the point, right???



Did you even read the original post that started this thread? For a B level racer, winning a B race does mean something. An elite guy sandbagging for the win robs the experience of competition from the B guy. I guarantee that at least 50% of the fans during the elite race at Nats were there because they were also racing that weekend in the other races. Cross is growing because its a grassroots thing that includes everyone. The fan base (which is all the sponsors of the elites care about) are racers themselves, that fact should be respected. I think it would be wise for the folks running Nats next year to police this sandbagging crap, because for them it's about the bottom dollar and they need all those lowely B racer fees. 

Please try to completely read (and comprehend) this this post before responding.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

ts692418 said:


> Please try to completely read (and comprehend) this this post before responding.


B level posting.


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> I would contend that when you start getting fields over 100 in a cross race, lapped riders are going to be a problem even without "elite racers". Look at the race that started this debate - 61 guys finished on the lead lap. That doesn't sound bad to me. I looked at the guy who finished 4th. - looks like he raced 35+, Cat 3 or SS most of the 2009 season. He would have lapped nearly as many guys. IMO, if guys are PO'd about getting pulled, their beef is with the promoter/system allowing gads of riders to enter a race, not with the hand full of Cat 1s and 2s that enter an open race.
> 
> I guess while I keep up with this discussion is that to me calling someone a sandbagger is a very negative thing. A kin to calling someone a cheater. For me it is someone who purposefully skirts the rules in order to get a result. Not the case here. And that fact that some people seem to be singling this guy out as the sole reason lots of riders got pulled. Again not the case.


Sandbagging means to purposely deceive by pretending to be weak. He's an awesome cross racer and I'm sure a nice guy, but he knew he would be called a sandbagger when he suited up, toe'd the line and crossed first. I don't think the term is synonymous with cheating - the connotation isn't as negative -it's almost jovial. Also, cheating isn't allowed in cross, but sandbagging is. Pretty big difference there. Again, the problem I have (and others) is with the term B. I originally thought it meant a race for the Dad's/40+ hour a week folks that bust their asses every weekend for beer primes. Which got me excited. I have since learned that it really doesn't mean anything and is designed as a race for people to ***** about sandbaggers (myself and CX magazine included). Apparently, sandbagging is a long standing cross tradition and one in which I am not going to fight and will accept. Not to be all holy'r than now, but I raced pro BMX and I never even thought about racing beneath my abilities. Peer pressure mostly as my friends would have crucified me. I think the promoter/rule makers should bear most of the criticism, but individual responsibility should also come into play.

I'm going to go get a cup of coffee now. I fully expect VA et al to misconstrue 100% of what I am saying and respond accordingly.


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## ts692418 (Dec 15, 2009)

hoogerland said:


> Not to be all holy'r than now, but I raced pro BMX and I never even thought about racing beneath my abilities.



I think that's the point. Whatever the rules may allow, it's a matter if self-respect, which "sandbaggers" apparently don't have.


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## tomk96 (Sep 24, 2007)

hoogerland said:


> Sandbagging means to purposely deceive by pretending to be weak. He's an awesome cross racer and I'm sure a nice guy, but he knew he would be called a sandbagger when he suited up, toe'd the line and crossed first. I don't think the term is synonymous with cheating - the connotation isn't as negative -it's almost jovial. Also, cheating isn't allowed in cross, but sandbagging is. Pretty big difference there. Again, the problem I have (and others) is with the term B. I originally thought it meant a race for the Dad's/40+ hour a week folks that bust their asses every weekend for beer primes. Which got me excited. I have since learned that it really doesn't mean anything and is designed as a race for people to ***** about sandbaggers (myself and CX magazine included). Apparently, sandbagging is a long standing cross tradition and one in which I am not going to fight and will accept. Not to be all holy'r than now, but I raced pro BMX and I never even thought about racing beneath my abilities. Peer pressure mostly as my friends would have crucified me. I think the promoter/rule makers should bear most of the criticism, but individual responsibility should also come into play.
> 
> I'm going to go get a cup of coffee now. I fully expect VA et al to misconstrue 100% of what I am saying and respond accordingly.


pretty sure the guy in question works 40+ hours/week. i would like to see a true "B" race added rather than have this open race. i'm pretty sure you'll find a decent number of racers in the B races that could have or did compete in the elite race.


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## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

I think we need a "C" race and also a "D" race, that way everyone can be a winner!


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

ts692418 said:


> Did you even read the original post that started this thread? For a B level racer, winning a B race does mean something. An elite guy sandbagging for the win robs the experience of competition from the B guy. I guarantee that at least 50% of the fans during the elite race at Nats were there because they were also racing that weekend in the other races. Cross is growing because its a grassroots thing that includes everyone. The fan base (which is all the sponsors of the elites care about) are racers themselves, that fact should be respected. I think it would be wise for the folks running Nats next year to police this sandbagging crap, because for them it's about the bottom dollar and they need all those lowely B racer fees.
> 
> Please try to completely read (and comprehend) this this post before responding.


Okay,... lets try comprehending this: my comment re: the winner not taking any satisfaction in winning was not intended for a hypothetical winner, but for the sandbagger who actually won. In that vein, I also contend that an NBA star should not take satisfaction in winning a city league tournament.

I was talking about a sandbagger's actions and you seem to be talking about the concerns of an actual B level racer. I think you can see from my earlier posting on this issue I'm on your side.


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## murphy1 (Sep 4, 2008)

yo mamma said:


> Assuming you're not being 'funny', I'll be a 'to the point' kinda guy and not sugarcoat it for you: anyone who traveled all the way to Bend to race in the B race, expecting it to be a "B" race is a dumbass.



Appreciate your sarcasm. While those racing in the B's should be ready to deal w/sandbaggers they shouldn't have to deal with a guy racing ELITES!!!!!! Come on.. Thats stupid.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

murphy1 said:


> Appreciate your sarcasm. While those racing in the B's should be ready to deal w/sandbaggers they shouldn't have to deal with a guy racing ELITES!!!!!! Come on.. Thats stupid.


Again, you've missed the point. Everyone, EVERYONE, knows the B race at 'cross nationals isn't really a B race, but a non-championship event open to all but those not eligible for age-graded races. I've argued the position that they should either change the entry criteria to make it a true B race, or they should drop the B race name and call it what it is, an open, non-championship event. As it is, it isn't really a B race, and anyone going there expecting to be such is not dealing in reality.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Up until a few years ago, almost every cross series had A and B races, later adding a C race. Racers self-selected their level. The B race was for those who weren't up to the A level. 

I believe that Oregon and New England still retain this system, St Louis does as well.

A few years ago USAC started clarifying the CX cat system and most series moved over to the 1/2, 3, 4 system, just like Road.

I think the nats B race was introduced to be in line with the A,B,C system. The B race was intended to be for those who wouldn't be competitive in the A's. And it's still self-selective. The goals are to earn more $$$ for the promoter so that they don't make a loss and to give more people the chance to race at nats and not get pulled after 2 laps.

If the above is wrong, I'm sure folks will let me know.

Anyway, the B race trusts people to be honest about their abilities.

If people want to 'bag it, it's up to them and it's up to us to call them out on it.

Living in the Midwest, I can tell you that the UCI Elite racers who raced the Bs feel absolutely no embarrassment - it simply doesn't occur to them.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

CO uses a strict categorization system. 3s race w/ 3s, 4s w/ 4s, etc... I imagine that other states that have large turnouts do so, as well. The A, B, C thing seems to be used when there aren't enough folks to make a 'field' without combining categories.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

I can't add a lot to this conversation, except that the woman that won the women's B race actually has a UCI point.


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## cardstock (Sep 29, 2008)

oh man, I hate internet drama: So I am going to be as objective as possible with this, and transparent. My name is Ben, I race with Scott all year long. First, I don't think this issue is limited just to Scott, but to the people who finished in the front of most of those B / Open races. They are all great people, but given the circumstances, I do not think racing, contesting and then taking spots on the podium was appropriate. I DO understand that these were Open races, and thus ANYONE is allowed to enter them, but there are reasons the entire Elite field doesn't use these races as warm up. We have our own Elite races to race, right?

Four short reasons I can give you that racing the B race was not necessary for anyone racing any of the other races that weekend. One: there is PLENTY of pre-ride time on the course over the entire weekend. Two: If you wanted to warm up, there were multitudes of opportunities to ride up, in, around and down the mountains of the area. I am pretty sure you could have had a better, more controlled and structured warm up on the road. Three: The course on Thursday morning had drastically different conditions than Friday. And the changes the course went through, compounded from there. So, had I raced at 8:30 AM on Thursday and then raced the Elite race on Sunday using Thursdays race as my mental note of how to ride the course, I would have been riding the course completely wrong. And Four: it was the coldest and earliest racing of the weekend, which isn't a reason not to race, but, it also doesn't make it very enjoyable to race when it is 5 degrees.

It seems that some people here think it is fair that these elite racers showed up and contested the race and to hell with the guys who showed up and thought the B / Open race would be competitive for them as real B racers (Cat2/3). That all the time and effort they put in doesn't matter, just because it is an open race. The problem is, for some of these B racers, it is their ONLY race. Not a "warm up" before their masters race, before their elite race. The solution presented is essentially they should just stay home? That is pretty ignorant, racing CX Nationals is unlike any other race of the year, for every field. And by that reasoning, you are basically saying I should have stayed home and not raced the Elite race just because I am a midpack finisher in the Elite race. Yes I got pulled, but I don't feel that gives me the right to enter the B races. There is a little emotion in there and I know people will pick apart the semantics, but you all understand what I am trying to say right?. Here, what I am saying is, if a racer made the effort to get to Bend and race at Nationals, they should be competing against people of their own ability.

The problem here is, I could have raced the B / Open race, as a Cat1 and had I been competitive, I know (after seeing the results) I would have been contesting a spot on the podium. And that is all fine and dandy, there is nothing in the rules that say you specifically can't do it (I still think it is wrong and why i didn't register). So the best solution I have come up with is this, kind of an all or nothing approach with an added race. 
There should be one Elite race that gets to contest the national title, let us call this the "PRO" race. You would race the PRO race if you have ANY UCI points accumulated. This way the contending national field would be a manageable size where there was little pulling of riders who are all super serious about bike racing. If you are part of this PRO field, you would not be allowed to race any other race at nationals, except maybe U23 and Colegiate, but that is a non-factor at this point in the conversation.
Then there would be the 'Elite" race. A race for Cat1s and 2s who have not accumulated any UCI points and it would not contest the national title. These are riders, like myself, who are not contesting that Elite national title in any form but are still too fast for a B race. If you are in this field you can race any of your respective national titled masters age group categories, but not the B field.
The the masters races would remain unchanged, except that if you are racing in one of the championship masters races, you are not allowed to race in any of the B/Open races.
Then the B races would still remain non-championship events, but they would be full of people who belong in a B race.

Sounds easy enough, but probably won't ever be adapted. I didn't mean to be so long winded, but I know people on both sides of the fence and think that everyone would be benefited with categories that are a little more defined. When I started typing this I cared, not so much anymore.


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## StevenG (Nov 19, 2005)

cardstock said:


> oh man, I hate internet drama: So I am going to be as objective as possible with this, and transparent. My name is Ben, I race with Scott all year long. First, I don't think this issue is limited just to Scott, but to the people who finished in the front of most of those B / Open races. They are all great people, but given the circumstances, I do not think racing, contesting and then taking spots on the podium was appropriate. I DO understand that these were Open races, and thus ANYONE is allowed to enter them, but there are reasons the entire Elite field doesn't use these races as warm up. We have our own Elite races to race, right?
> 
> Four short reasons I can give you that racing the B race was not necessary for anyone racing any of the other races that weekend. One: there is PLENTY of pre-ride time on the course over the entire weekend. Two: If you wanted to warm up, there were multitudes of opportunities to ride up, in, around and down the mountains of the area. I am pretty sure you could have had a better, more controlled and structured warm up on the road. Three: The course on Thursday morning had drastically different conditions than Friday. And the changes the course went through, compounded from there. So, had I raced at 8:30 AM on Thursday and then raced the Elite race on Sunday using Thursdays race as my mental note of how to ride the course, I would have been riding the course completely wrong. And Four: it was the coldest and earliest racing of the weekend, which isn't a reason not to race, but, it also doesn't make it very enjoyable to race when it is 5 degrees.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of this. I've never been to nationals, but follow what is going on every year. I think it is fair if you race the top race you shouldn't do the Masters races. Jacque-Maynes a full time pro, would win his Masters race and still get top 10 in the elite race the next day. I didn't like that, seemed against the spirit of the category. I may just be hatin or something.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

I talked to a guy who raced nats 4 times in the early 90s. As far as I understand, there was a nationals 1/2 race as well as an elite championship. Don't know if there was any crossover. Any old hands here who can shed light on this?


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## cardstock (Sep 29, 2008)

again, I just want to make clear, I am not trying or mean to put down any of the people who stood on the podium at nationals in the B races. Those are just my thoughts on how and why i think USAC should make changes to who can register for what races to make it fair for everyone


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