# DOGMA 60.1 vs PRINCE - FULL REVIEW



## iridepinarello

I have finally finished the review of my the DOGMA 60.1 versus the PRINCE. To see the complete review, visit the link below. I will happily answer any other questions.

Enjoy....

http://glorycycles.blogspot.com/2009/10/pinarello-dogma-vs-pinarello-prince.html


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## FondriestFan

Good stuff. As tempting as the Dogma is, I really like my Prince in the orange and black.

The Trigon/MoST bars are really nice and exceptionally comfortable. I have yet to see something from Trigon I did not like. Their frames are quite impressive as well. I think Pinarello did well to contract with them.


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## shachah7

interesting comparo. how different are the prince and dogma to the fp7 and fp3. 

are they all a case of dimishing returns or is there a marked difference in stiffness, comfort and handling. 

cheers mate.


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## natethomas2000

Nice comparison - not to be nit-picky, but you wrote 'croup' instead of 'group' in the middle of the write up.

I'd love to have a quick spin on either bike - your wheels on the Prince cost more than my entire bike.


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## southparkcycles

Great Review. 

There is a review of the FP7 somewhere in the Pinarello forum I believe. I would expect it would be a similar experience as the dogma prince review in most ways. The FP7 is a great value though if you can work with the stock setup.


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## BunnV

natethomas2000 said:


> Nice comparison - not to be nit-picky, but you wrote 'croup' instead of 'group' in the middle of the write up.
> 
> I'd love to have a quick spin on either bike - your wheels on the Prince cost more than my entire bike.


The wheels on the Prince are HED Ardennes ($1000), the wheels on the Dogma are Edge Carbon (tubulars?, clinchers?) probably $2500 or more. 

In the write up he said both bikes had the same wheels. Obviously they didn't when he took the pictures. I wonder which wheels he used for the comparison?


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## iridepinarello

BunnV said:


> The wheels on the Prince are HED Ardennes ($1000), the wheels on the Dogma are Edge Carbon (tubulars?, clinchers?) probably $2500 or more.
> 
> In the write up he said both bikes had the same wheels. Obviously they didn't when he took the pictures. I wonder which wheels he used for the comparison?



The EDGE's are Clinchers.

As for what wheels were used during the test... I tested both bikes with identical wheels. The test was as controlled as I could make it. Same course, same bike, groupo, wheels, etc. I switched the wheels from one bike to the other to test.


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## pharding

That is the best, most objective review of the Dogma versus the Prince. Great job.


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## rhauft

Interesting... I'm a 07 Paris / 09 Prince owner. If you inserted/substituted Paris/Prince for Prince/Dogma you would pretty much have my same opinion of the two. The difference is in degrees. When I'm on my Paris I always wonder why they would consider improving such a perfect bike. Then I jump on my Prince a go Hmph! nice! It's subtle and almost intangible but it just feels a couple degrees sweeter. A couple degrees is not enough to get me to "upgrade" to a Dogma. I'll wait until the next generation of Mac friendly digital HD Super Prince SL++ with integrated programable active transmission... with OnStar


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## toonraid

Would have been nice to also read some cycling specific comparisons such as climbing, decsending, sprinting etc rather than just feel of the bike - I did however find it interesting that the new stronger 60k carbon was actually smoother to ride as I would have expected the bike to be a stiffer ride and therefore perform better in a sprint or climb while expecting it not to perform so well in fast descents or comfort due to lack of "give".


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## koyaanisqatsi

*How about another comparison test!*



iridepinarello said:


> I have finally finished the review of my the DOGMA 60.1 versus the PRINCE. To see the complete review, visit the link below. I will happily answer any other questions.
> 
> Enjoy....
> 
> http://glorycycles.blogspot.com/2009/10/pinarello-dogma-vs-pinarello-prince.html


iridepinarello,

I've just purchased, but not yet received, a 2010 Dogma 60.1. I had been looking at a Colnago EPS, but decided against that bike. I can provide the reason(s) for the switch to Pinarello if anyone is interested...but just a brief justification for the switch. The switch upset some in the Colnago forums, for reasons that are not quite clear to me.

Anyway, I've not had the opportunity to ride any high-end racing bikes. I'm wondering if you, or perhaps someone else, can write a short comparison between the Dogma 60.1 and some other high end bike. Of course, I have the Dogma 60.1 vs. Colnago EPS in mind. But the Dogma 60.1 vs. ________(fill in the blank) would be helpful. I have recently received a new Lynskey Custom Level 3 titanium frame bike, but winter has hit where I am, so I'm unable to ride that bike for now except on my trainer. Any comparison information for the Dogma 60.1 or any riding experience description would be helpful.

k.


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## CliveDS

I have recently finished doing demo rides on 5 of the new 2010 bikes. One of them the Dogma 60.1 I should be able to shed some light. 

The bikes I have tested so far for 2010 are Eddy Merckx EMX5, BMC Team Machine SLR01, Pinarello FP7, Pinarello FP3. Other bikes I have owned or ridden are Colnago Extreme Power, Colnago Christallo, Look 595, Look 586, Orbea Orca, Orbea Opal, Colnago Titanio, Pinarello Prince, Litespeed Archon, Scott Addict, Blue RC8, Orbea Onix, BMC Road Racer, BMC Pro Machine, Ridley Damocles, Ridley Excaliber, Time Edge. 

The new Dogma is head and shoulders over any of these bikes, I try not to be a "Dogma Beater" but it's just a fact. Smoother, Stiffer, Feels lighter and handles better than any of the listed bikes. Has is the best characteristic of each bike was all brought down to one frame and it's reflected in the price as well. 

I have reviewed most of these bikes on my blog, call me if you want the blow by blow.


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## toonraid

I think everybody is dying for a top of the range shoot out my list would be;

Dogma - King 3RS - Power EPS - 595 Ultra - Ridley Noah

Trek, Specialized, Wilier, Giant, BMC etc should probably be there too but above would be my top 5.

I hope you get to ride them all side by side one day and give us the mother of all reviews.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Lot's of High End Bikes*



CliveDS said:


> I have recently finished doing demo rides on 5 of the new 2010 bikes. One of them the Dogma 60.1 I should be able to shed some light.
> 
> The bikes I have tested so far for 2010 are Eddy Merckx EMX5, BMC Team Machine SLR01, Pinarello FP7, Pinarello FP3. Other bikes I have owned or ridden are Colnago Extreme Power, Colnago Christallo, Look 595, Look 586, Orbea Orca, Orbea Opal, Colnago Titanio, Pinarello Prince, Litespeed Archon, Scott Addict, Blue RC8, Orbea Onix, BMC Road Racer, BMC Pro Machine, Ridley Damocles, Ridley Excaliber, Time Edge.
> 
> The new Dogma is head and shoulders over any of these bikes, I try not to be a "Dogma Beater" but it's just a fact. Smoother, Stiffer, Feels lighter and handles better than any of the listed bikes. Has is the best characteristic of each bike was all brought down to one frame and it's reflected in the price as well.
> 
> I have reviewed most of these bikes on my blog, call me if you want the blow by blow.


You've certainly had the opportunity to ride many high-end bikes. I'm new to that level of bike. I've just received a Custom Level 3 Lynskey R330 (not even ridden on the road due to weather conditions where I live) and the 2010 Dogma 60.1, which I'll receive in a couple months (in mid-winter here). So you're perspective is helpful.

I noted that, in one of Ward Bates's articles, he writes that a Takara was his first real bike. That was my first real bike as well, although mine had bar-end toggle shift levers. I purchased the Takara in a grungy old bike shop in a beat up arae of Buffalo, NY. The Takara was a great bike for the money. It was the bike for me, although I still can't explain why. Foolishly, I used it as a trade-in on the Trek 520. Other than that bike I've owned or still own a Schwinn Paramount, Trek 520, Specialized Allez (carbon fiber), and a Schwinn Circuit. I never managed to buy a high end bike until now, so I have no perspective on those bikes. And the above bikes are all from the late 1980s...things have certainly changed. Can't wait until the 2010 riding season.

Thanks,
k.


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## toonraid

Clive - what is your general impression of SRAM RED?


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## CliveDS

I think I know how you feel about the older 80's bikes. I had a Viner with suntour superb that my brother bought for me when I was in the military in Africa in 1989. Somewhere in the back of my mind I still think it was the best bike I ever had.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*All pretty much gone*



CliveDS said:


> I think I know how you feel about the older 80's bikes. I had a Viner with suntour superb that my brother bought for me when I was in the military in Africa in 1989. Somewhere in the back of my mind I still think it was the best bike I ever had.


I don't think the Takaras have been made since the early 1980s. I believe mine had Suntour components and Suntour now is mostly gone. I don't recall the Viner name. Things have changed since those days...probably for the better. I googled on "Takara" from time to time. I do get hits, mostly from people wanting to sell an old Takara or looking for parts that will fit their Takara. People don't seem to remember if the Takaras were built in Japan or by craftsman in the U.S.


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## cwdzoot

I was living in Africa so never saw them but Suntour was big when I started racing, pity they fell off the map. 

BTW- Anyone see the new Team Sky Dogma? 

Also coming available at the same time a British Federation color Dogma Red/White/Blue. Both will be available in the US in Jan in limited numbers.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Nice color combination.*



cwdzoot said:


> I was living in Africa so never saw them but Suntour was big when I started racing, pity they fell off the map.
> 
> BTW- Anyone see the new Team Sky Dogma?
> 
> Also coming available at the same time a British Federation color Dogma Red/White/Blue. Both will be available in the US in Jan in limited numbers.


On the Team Sky Dogma that is. I need to stop looking at these new colors...I've already ordered my Black/Silver/Red Dogma 60.1.

Suntour was big in the U.S. in the 1980s and I've read that they were the first to come out with indexed shifting. There was also a Swedish or Swiss company that manufactured a component groups. It was high-end, but pretty obscure. I don't remember their name and don't know if they are around at all any more.


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## bianchi77

how much is it for dogma ??


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Cost of Pinarello Dogma*



bianchi77 said:


> how much is it for dogma ??


The cost of the 2010 Pinarello Dogma 60.1 frame, which is the newest and presumably the best Dogma frame, is $5,499 MSRP. Shop around, vai email, and you might can probably get a better price. Try racycles.com, glorycycles.com, wrenchscience.com and your LBSs. 

The complete bike/build will depend on the components you select. A full Campagnolo Super Record build can easily cost $10,000 and up. For example see the Pinarello factory build at http://www.wrenchscience.com/road/frames/Pinarello/Dogma+60.1+Super+Record+11+Bike+-+2010 . $11,000!

Wrench Science and other retailers can do the roughly the same build as the factory build a little cheaper and with less wait time for the bike. Of course, you can use lesser components to save some money. But I wouldn't cut back on the quality of the components much. The Dogma frame deserves the best or near best.

Good luck,
k.


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## AlexRandall

Its funny how the type of roads the bike is used/tested on determines the perceptions of the bike. I've just visited Nth Sydney, which has arguably some of the crappest patch-ridden roads known to man. The local Pinarello dealer has a few sales of the Dogma already, and the general vibe is that it is extremely harsh. 
Reading between the lines, I think that for rough chip type roads, the ride of the Dogma is probably better than lower-end models, however the higher modulus carbon makes larger jolts travel through to the rider much more.


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## CliveDS

SRAM Red performance is fantastic but it does not give me the same impression as lets say Campy Record or Super Record. On a Dogma somehow it's better to do Campy. 

For the hardcore racer SRAM is the ticket, for the type of riding I do I prefer Campy cause it's so more "solid" not to mention the way it looks and finishes a bike off.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Alex: It seems natural...*



AlexRandall said:


> Its funny how the type of roads the bike is used/tested on determines the perceptions of the bike. I've just visited Nth Sydney, which has arguably some of the crappest patch-ridden roads known to man. The local Pinarello dealer has a few sales of the Dogma already, and the general vibe is that it is extremely harsh.
> Reading between the lines, I think that for rough chip type roads, the ride of the Dogma is probably better than lower-end models, however the higher modulus carbon makes larger jolts travel through to the rider much more.


that the type of road might affect a person's perception of a bike's ride quality. That's assuming that the type of roads that you describe are the only roads available. Of course, the ride qualities of a bike are not really road surface dependent. People's perceptions are. I suppose that, to properly assess the ride quality of a bike one needs to ride the bike on various road surfaces at various speeds. If you're interested in the ride quality of the frame itself, rider weight and the wheelset also make a difference and should be factored in. I've been told by someone in the Colnago forum that the Dogma is best for a criterium, not so good for road racing. That's a puzzling statement, given that I saw the Pinarello Prince/Dogma in the 2009 Giro, the Vuelta, the Milan-San Remo and the world championship road race. An elite pro racer would not put themselves at a competitive disadvantage IMO. In all fairness, the guy who told me this was really upset that I did not buy a Colnago,

I live in an area, Western New York State (WNY) that has all types of roads types. Some with quite smooth surfaces, others with uneven but not patched surfaces, and some with potholes and many patches. Any of these roads may, at some time have debris from farms fields scattered on them. I've recently received a 2009 Lynskey Custom Level 3 (R330) frame bike and have ordered the 2010 Dogma 60.1. I intend to stay well clear of the really rough, patched roads, as well as those that may have debris scattered about. Due to the cold and snow in my area, I don't really expect to be able to ride outside until April 2010. Until then, I need to get on my trainer with one of my older bikes. I haven't ridden in many years, but I really need something to keep my fitness levels up. The bike technology has changed and my Lynskey is Campy Record, my Dogma Campy Super Record. All my older bikes have Shimano Ultegra or 105 mounted on the down tube. It will be like learning to ride a "10-speed" again.

When I ordered by Lynskey, I briefly tested a Felt and a Lynskey Custom Level 4. The CL4 was very stiff. I could feel hairline cracks in the pavement that I would not even been aware of if it had not been a rainy summer and the cracks themselves were dark from a tiny amount of water seepage. The road was actually very smooth, but I felt even the tiniest imperfection. Upon return to the shop, I mentioned that to a mechanic. There were two CL4 owners in the shop and they said that my experience with the CL4 was typical. At lower speeds, the CL4 (and probably the CL3 that I bought) will transmit _any_ road imperfection as harshness. But at speed, all that harshness goes away, on the same road or even a rough road. The wonders of a titanium frame. I'm hoping for a similar ride on my Dogma, smooth that is.

My biggest concern is the structural integrity of the Pinarello frames. I've read way too much about cracked frames. And the warranty is just 2 years.


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## toonraid

CliveDS said:


> SRAM Red performance is fantastic but it does not give me the same impression as lets say Campy Record or Super Record. On a Dogma somehow it's better to do Campy.
> 
> For the hardcore racer SRAM is the ticket, for the type of riding I do I prefer Campy cause it's so more "solid" not to mention the way it looks and finishes a bike off.


I just wanted to know how aware you are of a bike in order to figure out how much weight I should attach to your review of Dogma.

It is a well known fact that SRAM red suffers from gear change problems which is why many including sponsored SRAM pro teams used shimano cassette and chain (DA7800 not 7900 which has its own problems) throughout the 2009 season - even SRAM has admitted to the problem and say that they have improved it for 2010 edition (funnily enough they didn't say that they resolved or fixed the problem - just that they have improved it) - the Chainset also suffers from some flex to the extent that even a Cat 1 cyclist can feel it compared to Record or DA chainsets.


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## CLTracer

toonraid said:


> I just wanted to know how aware you are of a bike in order to figure out how much weight I should attach to your review of Dogma.
> 
> It is a well known fact that SRAM red suffers from gear change problems which is why many including sponsored SRAM pro teams used shimano cassette and chain (DA7800 not 7900 which has its own problems) throughout the 2009 season - even SRAM has admitted to the problem and say that they have improved it for 2010 edition (funnily enough they didn't say that they resolved or fixed the problem - just that they have improved it) - the Chainset also suffers from some flex to the extent that even a Cat 1 cyclist can feel it compared to Record or DA chainsets.


Huh? I've been riding and racing SRAM Red for 2 years now. I've also alternated between Shimano Di2 and Campy Super Record 11. SRAM's performance is as good or better than any of the others.


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## toonraid

Surprised you didn't know this - maybe a good idea to talk to a few pro's who have used them or people with pro tour tech inside knowledge - as I said even a 1st cat sprinter should be able to tell the flex in RED chainset (well atleast my friends who are 1st cat and have used it could tell). For 2010 SRAM in their bulletin announced improved shifting compared to 2009 (think they changed cables). Anyway research it and if unconvinced I will have a look on internet and send you a few links as I am sure it has come up in some reviews as well.


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## CLTracer

toonraid said:


> Surprised you didn't know this - maybe a good idea to talk to a few pro's who have used them or people with pro tour tech inside knowledge - as I said even a 1st cat sprinter should be able to tell the flex in RED chainset (well atleast my friends who are 1st cat and have used it could tell). For 2010 SRAM in their bulletin announced improved shifting compared to 2009 (think they changed cables). Anyway research it and if unconvinced I will have a look on internet and send you a few links as I am sure it has come up in some reviews as well.


I will agree that there is flex in the Red chainrings, but everything else is on par with Campy and DA 7900. I personally don't like the Red cranks, so I run Fulcrums. I have both 2009 and 2010 Red groupsets on bikes that I alternate between and I see no difference in shift quality. Both are great. I'd venture to say that no one, pros included, has lost a race, or an even more coveted county line sprint, because of chainring flex with SRAM Red. Maybe they think they have, but I'd have to say it's a convenient excuse more than a performance issue.


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## toonraid

Of course u r right, in these modern times races are won and lost by cyclists not equipment (unless faulty) - on the other hand there is the feel good factor and it does result in seconds (i.e. when on new bike) - but apart from that I am so merely pointing out technical differences of various sets on the market.


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## apark

Hey CLTracer, what you say is true - no one has lost a race because of it but it seems like several people I know have complained not only of the chainring but of the front derailleur being flexy and not shifting crisply. I know a couple of guys using DA fr der to make up for it, along with DA cassette.

Hey Toonraid, I can see why you are suspicious of iridepinarello's review. It comes across more as an advertisement to buy it than as an objective review. I can provide a slightly different perspective, owning all the bikes in the Pinarello race lineup except the FM1. The Prince Carbon is a lighter, more brittle version of the Dogma 60.1. It is lighter than the Dogma 60.1 (because Dogma's new aero seatpost and fork are heavier, as well as the additional reinforcement Pinarello has put into the carbon weave, which they call nano-somethingorother). I have never had bad luck with my Prince but I have 2 friends whose Prince frames have cracked and were covered by warranty luckily. In fact, one of them paid the difference for the Dogma 60.1. The Prince feels a lot harsher than the new Dogma, partly because of the nano-stuff in the carbon, and partly because Pinarello has strangely made the Dogma 60.1 more VERTICALLY compliant, while laterally stiffer. It is a very strange feeling -- I'll explain what I mean -- it's not good.

When I first climbed on the carbon Doggie, I thought it was sweet because the first thing you'll notice is how smooth it is. Usually, I would argue that a Colnago C50 is one of the smoothest riding bikes made, but the Doggie makes the C50 feel almost harsh by comparison. But my impression went quickly from positive to negative on the first steep climb on the Dogma, because I actually felt a "bouncy" sensation. I guarantee you it was the frame. Here's my build - you'll see nothing on it is flexy:










However, the frame felt like it was flexing vertically right down the middle of the bottom bracket. I notice it on very steep inclines where I'm out of the saddle in a small gear (34x23 - since I have compact with 11-25 on this one). It's not a characteristic I like. On the other hand, I never felt that on my Prince.








.

So I feel Pinarello decided to "market" its way out of the Prince's defect issues and make the Dogma more reliable, slightly heavier (exact same build with LW standard wheels -- yielded about a half pound difference in weight), and smoother, but built in some vertical compliance to achieve the smoothness. In fact, it feels more like the Paris. It would be interesting to see how both bikes (Doggie and Prince) would fare in a more scientific machine-based flex test. Although I would be willing to bet the Prince breaks first....

I also always prefer to feel the road more, as long as it is not a bone-chattering aluminum-inspired harshness. iridepinarello referred to Porsches in his review so I'll use the same analogy -- I'm not sure I would liken the Dogma to a 997 Turbo -- it felt more like a Mercedes (or dare I say Lexus given how much it deadens the road) than a Porsche. The Prince on the other hand, feels more like a Porsche (or even a Lotus given its harshness). I would therefore even argue the Prince is actually faster in most race situations given its weight advantage and stiffness.

Disclaimer: I got rid of my Prince frame, and plan to get rid of my Dogma after next year. The one frame I would NEVER sell however (and I have collected several since they are no longer made), is the magnesium Dogma FPX (not the first gen with the proprietary BB but the latest rev before extinction). This I think is the best kept secret and was unfortunately (or fortunately for some) a marketing failure with the masses going for carbon. I would liken this in the Porsche analogy to the naturally aspirated masterpiece 997 GT3RS. It has the most incredible ride. Only drawback is that it's really a fairweather bike given the properties of magnesium, but you put it on a stationary trainer and you can actually prove to yourself that this bike is much stiffer in the bottom bracket than both the carbon Dogma and the Prince, despite what any bike shop markets. If you ask Fausto Pinarello, which bike is the best they have ever made, and he will tell you personally that it's the magnesium Dogma: (sorry, cell phone photo)










Hope that helps as a credible review. If you're considering getting the Dogma 60.1, I would save the money and buy yourself a set of Boras with a Prince instead.


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## apark

Hey iridepinarello, btw, no disrespect meant in my response above to your review. I just wanted to provide a different perspective for toonraid given his prior question.

We should exchange notes on Pinarellos sometime as it's clearly an obsession for both of us.


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## toonraid

Thanks apark for your alternative review, it is always nice to have different views. All I need now is a unbiased review of Power EPS v Dogma.

As for nanosomethingorother - I think the correct term is nano particle which is used for particles less than 1/100 of micron. Your average carbon frame is made up of 70% Carbon and 30% Glue to bond the layers of carbon. The glue has no stiffness value and so is dead weight but necessary to bond the carbon layers - by using Nano technology Carbon particles of nano dimension are mixed with glue therefore increasing the percentage of Carbon (and reducing the glue %) within a frame enabling the manufacturer to make the frame stiffer or lighter or both. Pretty much most high end frames use this technology to reach sub kilo frame weight.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*A nanoparticle?*



toonraid said:


> Thanks apark for your alternative review, it is always nice to have different views. All I need now is a unbiased review of Power EPS v Dogma.
> 
> As for nanosomethingorother - I think the correct term is nano particle which is used for particles less than 1/100 of micron. Your average carbon frame is made up of 70% Carbon and 30% Glue to bond the layers of carbon. The glue has no stiffness value and so is dead weight but necessary to bond the carbon layers - by using Nano technology Carbon particles of nano dimension are mixed with glue therefore increasing the percentage of Carbon (and reducing the glue %) within a frame enabling the manufacturer to make the frame stiffer or lighter or both. Pretty much most high end frames use this technology to reach sub kilo frame weight.


There is, as far as I've been able to determine, no internationally accepted definition of "nanoparticle". However, the following definition is often used: "A particle having one or more dimensions of the order of 100nm or less." Of course, a nm is one-billionth (10**-9) of a meter. A micron is one-millionth (10**-6) of a meter. So 100nm would be 10**-7 m or 1/10 of a micron. So the above definition might read ""A particle having one or more dimensions of the order of 1/10 of a micron or less." For all practical purposes, this doesn't mean anything. It's just that the definition of nanoparticle by toonraid had been bothering me...couldn't sleep.

I too, want an unbiased comparison review between the EPS and Dogma. Thorough reviews of either bike are hard to find. Bicycling Magazine has an online review of the Dogma 60.1, but not the EPS.


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## toonraid

I stand corrected - definition is indeed less than 100nm.

I have seen reviews of EPS as well as Dogma but never the 2 against each other.


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## pharding

toonraid said:


> ....The glue has no stiffness value and so is dead weight but necessary to bond the carbon layers...


That is not true. Carbon fiber components are composite materials. With both components contributing to the strength of the end product. Epoxy is strong in both compression and in tension, although it is not as strong as carbon fiber. Carbon fiber fabric by itself is not usable to create structural shapes. Working together the two components create structural components that are incredibly light, strong, and moldable.


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## cwdzoot

Fantatic review thank you for the information.


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## CliveDS

I often wonder about this type of "technology" in the bike industry, there is no way to tell if it's real or hoax. 

BTW I have a few reviews of the dogma and a comparative review of the Prince and Colnago EP on my blog.


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## toonraid

pharding said:


> That is not true. Carbon fiber components are composite materials. With both components contributing to the strength of the end product. Epoxy is strong in both compression and in tension, although it is not as strong as carbon fiber. Carbon fiber fabric by itself is not usable to create structural shapes. Working together the two components create structural components that are incredibly light, strong, and moldable.


Why mix the epoxy with nanocarbon then?


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## pharding

To make it even stronger.


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## MinnBobber

*Dogma vs EPS*

++++ I'd also love to see a detailed comparison between the Dogma and Colnago EPS.
I was torn between the two and just placed my order for the one that I thought would serve me better for years to come.

I did talk with several dealers that carry both and got some very interesting comments.


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## koyaanisqatsi

MinnBobber said:


> ++++ I'd also love to see a detailed comparison between the Dogma and Colnago EPS.
> I was torn between the two and just placed my order for the one that I thought would serve me better for years to come.
> 
> I did talk with several dealers that carry both and got some very interesting comments.


I'd be interested in which of those two bikes you chose, although I assume you chose the Dogma because you are posting in this forum. I could be wrong. I'd also be interested in the comments made by dealers. There is no need to mention which dealers made any comments.

I'll say that I ordered a Dogma 60.1 over the Colnago EPS, largely because I did not like Colnago's business practices. Both are fine bikes, but Colnago made the decision easy for me.


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## CliveDS

Easton have a good explanation for this method.







ENHANCED RESIN SYSTEM
The weakest areas in a traditional carbon-fiber component are the tiny spaces between the fibers that contain only resin. To radically improve strength and toughness in these critical areas, Easton Scientists have developed an innovative Enhanced Resin System using carbon nanotubes (CNT). Carbon nanotubes are an array of carbon atoms arranged in a pattern of hexagons and pentagons (similar to the pattern found on soccer balls). These structures can be manufactured in tubular shapes one billionth of a meter in diameter, hence the name nanotube. Carbon nanotubes have been called “the strongest fiber that will ever be made”. Nanotubes have a strength-to-weight ratio orders of magnitude greater than steel. 

Easton’s proprietary process impregnates the resin/fiber matrix with evenly distributed carbon nanotubes. The addition of real carbon nanotubes greatly improves the toughness and strengthens Easton’s already legendary components.


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## toonraid

pharding said:


> To make it even stronger.


............. and lighter - which is what I said - glue does not have the same value as carbon in a frame!


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## nicensleazy

apark said:


> Hey CLTracer, what you say is true - no one has lost a race because of it but it seems like several people I know have complained not only of the chainring but of the front derailleur being flexy and not shifting crisply. I know a couple of guys using DA fr der to make up for it, along with DA cassette.
> 
> Hey Toonraid, I can see why you are suspicious of iridepinarello's review. It comes across more as an advertisement to buy it than as an objective review. I can provide a slightly different perspective, owning all the bikes in the Pinarello race lineup except the FM1. The Prince Carbon is a lighter, more brittle version of the Dogma 60.1. It is lighter than the Dogma 60.1 (because Dogma's new aero seatpost and fork are heavier, as well as the additional reinforcement Pinarello has put into the carbon weave, which they call nano-somethingorother). I have never had bad luck with my Prince but I have 2 friends whose Prince frames have cracked and were covered by warranty luckily. In fact, one of them paid the difference for the Dogma 60.1. The Prince feels a lot harsher than the new Dogma, partly because of the nano-stuff in the carbon, and partly because Pinarello has strangely made the Dogma 60.1 more VERTICALLY compliant, while laterally stiffer. It is a very strange feeling -- I'll explain what I mean -- it's not good.
> 
> When I first climbed on the carbon Doggie, I thought it was sweet because the first thing you'll notice is how smooth it is. Usually, I would argue that a Colnago C50 is one of the smoothest riding bikes made, but the Doggie makes the C50 feel almost harsh by comparison. But my impression went quickly from positive to negative on the first steep climb on the Dogma, because I actually felt a "bouncy" sensation. I guarantee you it was the frame. Here's my build - you'll see nothing on it is flexy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, the frame felt like it was flexing vertically right down the middle of the bottom bracket. I notice it on very steep inclines where I'm out of the saddle in a small gear (34x23 - since I have compact with 11-25 on this one). It's not a characteristic I like. On the other hand, I never felt that on my Prince.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> So I feel Pinarello decided to "market" its way out of the Prince's defect issues and make the Dogma more reliable, slightly heavier (exact same build with LW standard wheels -- yielded about a half pound difference in weight), and smoother, but built in some vertical compliance to achieve the smoothness. In fact, it feels more like the Paris. It would be interesting to see how both bikes (Doggie and Prince) would fare in a more scientific machine-based flex test. Although I would be willing to bet the Prince breaks first....
> 
> I also always prefer to feel the road more, as long as it is not a bone-chattering aluminum-inspired harshness. iridepinarello referred to Porsches in his review so I'll use the same analogy -- I'm not sure I would liken the Dogma to a 997 Turbo -- it felt more like a Mercedes (or dare I say Lexus given how much it deadens the road) than a Porsche. The Prince on the other hand, feels more like a Porsche (or even a Lotus given its harshness). I would therefore even argue the Prince is actually faster in most race situations given its weight advantage and stiffness.
> 
> Disclaimer: I got rid of my Prince frame, and plan to get rid of my Dogma after next year. The one frame I would NEVER sell however (and I have collected several since they are no longer made), is the magnesium Dogma FPX (not the first gen with the proprietary BB but the latest rev before extinction). This I think is the best kept secret and was unfortunately (or fortunately for some) a marketing failure with the masses going for carbon. I would liken this in the Porsche analogy to the naturally aspirated masterpiece 997 GT3RS. It has the most incredible ride. Only drawback is that it's really a fairweather bike given the properties of magnesium, but you put it on a stationary trainer and you can actually prove to yourself that this bike is much stiffer in the bottom bracket than both the carbon Dogma and the Prince, despite what any bike shop markets. If you ask Fausto Pinarello, which bike is the best they have ever made, and he will tell you personally that it's the magnesium Dogma: (sorry, cell phone photo)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps as a credible review. If you're considering getting the Dogma 60.1, I would save the money and buy yourself a set of Boras with a Prince instead.




Informative read - thanks for posting.


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## iridepinarello

apark said:


> Hey iridepinarello, btw, no disrespect meant in my response above to your review. I just wanted to provide a different perspective for toonraid given his prior question.
> 
> We should exchange notes on Pinarellos sometime as it's clearly an obsession for both of us.



LOL... no disrespect taken  This is all in good fun, and yes, we should exchange notes for sure. It's always nice to chat with another obsessed Pinarello fan. 

I would love to hear about you Lightweight wheels. Never had a pair but want to get them.

PM me when you're free and give me your phone #.


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## iridepinarello

CliveDS said:


> Easton have a good explanation for this method.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ENHANCED RESIN SYSTEM
> The weakest areas in a traditional carbon-fiber component are the tiny spaces between the fibers that contain only resin. To radically improve strength and toughness in these critical areas, Easton Scientists have developed an innovative Enhanced Resin System using carbon nanotubes (CNT). Carbon nanotubes are an array of carbon atoms arranged in a pattern of hexagons and pentagons (similar to the pattern found on soccer balls). These structures can be manufactured in tubular shapes one billionth of a meter in diameter, hence the name nanotube. Carbon nanotubes have been called “the strongest fiber that will ever be made”. Nanotubes have a strength-to-weight ratio orders of magnitude greater than steel.
> 
> Easton’s proprietary process impregnates the resin/fiber matrix with evenly distributed carbon nanotubes. The addition of real carbon nanotubes greatly improves the toughness and strengthens Easton’s already legendary components.


Thanks for posting this Clive. Very informative. 

Regardless of the technology, you still have to pedal the damn things


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## MinnBobber

*Dogma vs EPS dealer comments*



koyaanisqatsi said:


> I'd be interested in which of those two bikes you chose, although I assume you chose the Dogma because you are posting in this forum. I could be wrong. I'd also be interested in the comments made by dealers. There is no need to mention which dealers made any comments.
> 
> I'll say that I ordered a Dogma 60.1 over the Colnago EPS, largely because I did not like Colnago's business practices. Both are fine bikes, but Colnago made the decision easy for me.


koyaanisqatsi, I'd love to have either bike but actually chose the EPS over the Dogma. I really wanted to get the Dogma as IMO it is hotter/sexier looking and I really appreciate the technology it uses. But for me, I felt the EPS was the better longterm bike if I looked beyond which had more appeal and really analyzed which fit my needs/wants better. For others, the Dogma may very well be best for them.
I still search out anything I can find on both bikes.
I shopped all over the US as I wanted either a 2010 Dogma or 2009 EPS as I liked the 2009 paint schemes much better than the 2010-again just my opinion.
I tried to talk to as many dealers as possible that sold both. The boiled down descriptions/comments on the two bikes are:
-Dogma- fantastic bike, more modern / modern looking with monocoque construction. Maybe stiffer. Faster handling. Likes more weight on the front. Sharper turning/turn on a dime, you need to show care as it turns so quick. You need to be attentive at all times/ on fast descents as it turns if you even think about turning.
-EPS -themes from dealers: also a great bike. Dogma hotter looking while EPS more classic/traditional looking. Best ride quality of any bike. Best descending bike, like on rails. Great technology but hidden inside the frame, the torsional stiffening while vertically compliant internal bracing.Quick steering but smoother transition from straight to turning than the Dogma. More forgiving. You can descend at 50 mph with hands on upper bars. So solid handling. 
One dealer inspects inside of all frames with bore scope, looking for any cracks or imperfections and he said inside of Colnago is by far the cleanest of any of the 10 top end bikes he sells and no, you don't need this but I think it shows the overall care Colnago takes with the build process. He said he has never seen a Colnago with any hidden frame issues. He would not name the brands/didn't want to throw dirt but said he had seen some other top end brands with frames that had internal cracks/ tools glued into the resin accidently, etc.
Some dealers liked the EPS English threaded bottom bracket over the Italian threaded Dogma.
One said Dogma is getting more popular as Pinarello has much more $$ available for advertising/sponsorship/marketing/creating demand as both list for $5500 and EPS is still 100% made in Italy so Pin has much more profit to spend on creating more demand. That was very interesting comment.That dealer already had orders for 25+ Dogmas, he thought they were two best bikes made, he owned an EPS but also loved the Dogma. 
Dealer comments were that both were absolutely fantastic bikes with slightly different ride characteristics. I hope I love my EPS and would love to own a Dogma in the future. I like how you can get a dogma designed for internal Di2 wiring, so if Di2 ever gets more realistic on pricing you can have hidden wiring.
I would have gotten the black/red/silver Dogma and most dealers who saw that color in person said it was absolutely awesome so your bike should really be a looker.
Bob, still waiting for my delivery.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Interesting Comments*



MinnBobber said:


> koyaanisqatsi, I'd love to have either bike but actually chose the EPS over the Dogma. I really wanted to get the Dogma as IMO it is hotter/sexier looking and I really appreciate the technology it uses. But for me, I felt the EPS was the better longterm bike if I looked beyond which had more appeal and really analyzed which fit my needs/wants better. For others, the Dogma may very well be best for them.
> I still search out anything I can find on both bikes.
> I shopped all over the US as I wanted either a 2010 Dogma or 2009 EPS as I liked the 2009 paint schemes much better than the 2010-again just my opinion.
> I tried to talk to as many dealers as possible that sold both. The boiled down descriptions/comments on the two bikes are:
> -Dogma- fantastic bike, more modern / modern looking with monocoque construction. Maybe stiffer. Faster handling. Likes more weight on the front. Sharper turning/turn on a dime, you need to show care as it turns so quick. You need to be attentive at all times/ on fast descents as it turns if you even think about turning.
> -EPS -themes from dealers: also a great bike. Dogma hotter looking while EPS more classic/traditional looking. Best ride quality of any bike. Best descending bike, like on rails. Great technology but hidden inside the frame, the torsional stiffening while vertically compliant internal bracing.Quick steering but smoother transition from straight to turning than the Dogma. More forgiving. You can descend at 50 mph with hands on upper bars. So solid handling.
> One dealer inspects inside of all frames with bore scope, looking for any cracks or imperfections and he said inside of Colnago is by far the cleanest of any of the 10 top end bikes he sells and no, you don't need this but I think it shows the overall care Colnago takes with the build process. He said he has never seen a Colnago with any hidden frame issues. He would not name the brands/didn't want to throw dirt but said he had seen some other top end brands with frames that had internal cracks/ tools glued into the resin accidently, etc.
> Some dealers liked the EPS English threaded bottom bracket over the Italian threaded Dogma.
> One said Dogma is getting more popular as Pinarello has much more $$ available for advertising/sponsorship/marketing/creating demand as both list for $5500 and EPS is still 100% made in Italy so Pin has much more profit to spend on creating more demand. That was very interesting comment.That dealer already had orders for 25+ Dogmas, he thought they were two best bikes made, he owned an EPS but also loved the Dogma.
> Dealer comments were that both were absolutely fantastic bikes with slightly different ride characteristics. I hope I love my EPS and would love to own a Dogma in the future. I like how you can get a dogma designed for internal Di2 wiring, so if Di2 ever gets more realistic on pricing you can have hidden wiring.
> I would have gotten the black/red/silver Dogma and most dealers who saw that color in person said it was absolutely awesome so your bike should really be a looker.
> Bob, still waiting for my delivery.


I suspect those two bikes are very close in overall handling and ride quality. It's hard to know which bike one would prefer if you you live with and ride both for a couple months. I'm sure you'll like the EPS. Let's face it...there is always some chance that you note some characteristic you just don't like, but that could be due to the components more than the frame. The same could be said of the Dogma. In the RBR Reviews, someone bought a Serotta for $22,000 (yes $22k!), but didn't really like the bike. He may have chose some very high end components that simply didn't work well together. I'm just guessing.

I think I've given my reasons for not going with the EPS...you can get the 2010 EPS in PRZA (R&A claims to have an exclusive on it, but a couple other retailers can get it) although my retailer had to fight for it; you can get the PR82 Saronni if you know who to go to. I liked the MTBK and had one on order. But I got fed up with Colnago's paint scheme and color games. They do not serve the customer or the retailers well and Colnago needs to make clear what is and what is not available. So I changed the order to the Dogma. I'd probably be happy with either fame. Still waiting for my bike as well, but I live in Western NY State and we won't have bikeable weather for at lest 3 months.

k.


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## pharding

Before I bought my Pinarello Prince, I considered the Colnago EPS. Unfortunately the Colnago color schemes are amateurish in my opinion as an architect and Colnago's reputation in the Chicago area is that of being undependable .


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## mriddle

*Dogma vs. EPS*

It's amazing how many people want to compare these two frames.
In actuality, these are two of the most contrasting carbon frames on the market.
I would love to own one, but would never consider the other.....


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## apark

iridepinarello said:


> LOL... no disrespect taken  This is all in good fun, and yes, we should exchange notes for sure. It's always nice to chat with another obsessed Pinarello fan.
> 
> I would love to hear about you Lightweight wheels. Never had a pair but want to get them.
> 
> PM me when you're free and give me your phone #.


Dude, just pm'ed you my info.

LWs are great but not worth the $ diff vs. Boras. They are better climbing wheels due to weight but the carbon/kevlar spokes deaden the ride a bit. Boras are much sexier and give you better road feel. I like feelin' the ride, if you know what I mean. And sexy - I like sexy too.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Reasons for comparisons*



mriddle said:


> It's amazing how many people want to compare these two frames.
> In actuality, these are two of the most contrasting carbon frames on the market.
> I would love to own one, but would never consider the other.....


I think the reason for the comparison is that these two frames are directed at the same groups. Racers, bicycling enthusiasts, and anyone who wants to believe that they have the best possible frame. Of course, these two frames are only among many best frames available. My bike shop owner insists that the best frames are now built in the U.S. But he is a retailer for Pinarello Colnago and others, but not Specialized or Trek.

k.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*I hear you*



pharding said:


> Before I bought my Pinarello Prince, I considered the Colnago EPS. Unfortunately the Colnago color schemes are amateurish in my opinion as an architect and Colnago's reputation in the Chicago area is that of being undependable .


The Colnago paint schemes and colors shown in the Colnago catalogue and at most of their retailer Web sites are not so good. There are only two online retailers for Colnago in the U.S--R&A Cycles and Wrench Science. But there are a bunch of custom colors available for the 2010 EPS: PRZA, PR82, MTBK and others. They fact that they are available but not openly advertised, seemed to be available through only some retailers, etc. sealed the deal to move to Pinarello. I knew what was available and what I could get. Sure Pinarello seems to do some limited production runs of certain colors (Team Sky for example), but I believe they won't covertly favor one retailer over another.

I can't speak to the unreliability of Colnago, but I've heard the same comment as the one you made several times. Pinarello seems to honor warranties and handle issues w/o any problems.


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## JeremyP

MinnBobber, very good description of the two bikes. Saw a Team Sky training bike on the road this morn, looks fast with Di2!


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## vavadidi

Hi,

Soryy for my english... I speak normaly french. I have a question. I would like to change my frame. I have a BMC slc01. I had big problem with BMC and the guarantee. 

I look of another BMC, the SLR01, a TIME RXR and the most beautiful for me, the DOGMA60.1 CliveDS you have tested the BMC and the DOGMA. Could you tell me what the differance, the positiv or negativ points... 

For me the dogma have two negatives points. The weight et the seatpost.

Thank's for answer.


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## Jbartmc

koyaanisqatsi said:


> I think the reason for the comparison is that these two frames are directed at the same groups. Racers, bicycling enthusiasts, and anyone who wants to believe that they have the best possible frame. Of course, these two frames are only among many best frames available. My bike shop owner insists that the best frames are now built in the U.S. But he is a retailer for Pinarello Colnago and others, but not Specialized or Trek.
> 
> k.


I am curious if the shop owner is speaking about small-scale frame makers as opposed to the big manufacturers you mentioned.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*He didn't qualify his statement.*



Jbartmc said:


> I am curious if the shop owner is speaking about small-scale frame makers as opposed to the big manufacturers you mentioned.


He said simply that the best frames are now made in the U.S. [Facing facts, the U.S. isn't the best at much anymore.] So I really can't address your point. I assumed, and I know that usually gets one into hot water, that he meant "in general and of all frames made". I've noted that he sells Pinarello and Colnago (he's not listed as an Colnago-authorized dealer, so no warranty according to Colnago U.S.!!!!!), as well as Felt, Masi, and probably others. And of course, he's the dealer I bought my Lynskey titanium frame/bike from. You can check his Web site @ http://www.tomsprobike.com/ but he doesn't have much listed right now (winter in Buffalo, NY!). That shop is probably the best bike shop in Western New York...I'm unaware of anyone more knowledgeable and who carries strictly pro-level bikes in this area. It's not quite local to me...about 1-1/2 hour drive with autobahn style driving.


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## waypastfast

This thread is a great read! I am wondering if anyone can tell me how much of difference there would be from going from a 2002 Prince SL to a new Dogma Think or 60.1? I love the geometry of my bike but the Prince feels like it lacks the snap of the new carbon frames. Thanks!


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## jathanas

I've owned both, the Prince and the Dogma2. To add my 2 cents to the discussion:

1. The Prince is not lighter than the Dogma2.
2. The Dogma 2 sprints and climbs just as well as the Prince, whilst having a more comfortable ride. I also find it very stable during cornering and descending. 

I'd happily ride either bike for the rest of my life, and feel like a lucky bastard each and every day.


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