# Quality of "Off" Brands for a New Bike



## GT705 (Sep 15, 2005)

I have just decided to take up road biking as part of my goal to try my first sprint triathlon, and I have already gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from this excellent site. I am a 5' 5.5", 135lb, 40 year-old guy in very good shape from running, calisthenics, and weights. My goal is to get the greatest value on the purchase of my first bike without spending over $1,000. I plan to ride it primarily for road training and possibly a little indoor training on something like a CycleOps, no more than two sprint triathlons in the next year, and possibly something like a local MS150 ride about a year from now. I've noticed all the recommendations of familiar brands and it looks like the only unfamiliar brand that made the site's Top200 list is the Motobecane Le Champion SL, but I'd like to hear informed opinions on the Windsor and Mercier brands that Bikesdirect sells, and also IBEX. Are they great deals for the money too, or should I stick to Trek/Cannondale/Giant/Specialized? Thanks in advance.

P.S. My biking-guru friend will hate me if I buy via mail-order. What's so wrong about that? I am very mechanically inclined and easily learn to do all the adjustment/calibration/maintenance stuff myself.


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## team_sheepshead (Jan 17, 2003)

Welcome to the world of road bikes. I hope you enjoy many years of happy riding. Please start with a search of RBR.com for terms like "BikesDirect" and "Motobecane" and "Ibex." After you do a search, you will understand that that "click" you just heard was you stepping on the BikesDirect landmine. 

Anytime someone new posts about BikesDirect, it starts a debate. BikesDirect has been known to send shills to RBR, posing as consumers, to praise their bikes. So possibly prepare yourself for some fervent opinions to be posted here.

The obvious problem with mail order bikes is that you cannot try before you buy. For a new roadie, fit is the most important factor. So some veteran roadies see companies like BikesDirect as preying on roadies who see a great deal while discounting fit and comfort.

I personally dealt with BikesDirect early last year, researching a bike for a newbie friend of mine. We had a good idea of the size and geometry my friend needed. But BikesDirect would not send me the geometry of their bikes. I asked three times and the rep finally said, "Even if the bike does not fit, you can sell it on eBay for a profit." I consider that horrible advice. I will never do business with them again.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*You have answered your question.*



GT705 said:


> My biking-guru friend will hate me if I buy via mail-order.


nmnmndm


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

GT705 said:


> P.S. My biking-guru friend will hate me if I buy via mail-order. What's so wrong about that? I am very mechanically inclined and easily learn to do all the adjustment/calibration/maintenance stuff myself.


If you are lucky enough to have someone who knows how you ride and has watched you ride, take his/her advice. If not really advising, just criticizing, that's another story. - TF


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## HAL9000 (May 1, 2002)

Look at Leader bikes.


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## everydaybike (Feb 25, 2005)

Glad to hear your thinking about a roadie... welcome!

Ther eis nothing wrong with a mail order purchas as long as you do your homework and research. If you're planning on doing your own PM then I think it's a good way to go. Make sure you do your fit calcs however because fit is the most important thing for a new rider as others have mentioned.

I just received the latest clearance mailer from Supergo. Their house brand is the Scanttante which offer a lot of bang for the buck. The R-550 has an Easton Untralight frame, 105 drivetrain, decent wheels and is a very nicely equipted bike for the money. The web site price is $699 v $679 in the mailer. The only thing I did not see quite up to snuff were the Tektro brake calipers but for the savings you can find a pair of 105 or Ultegra. I think it would be in line with the other brands you mentioned. They also have the R-660 whihc is full Ultegra 10 but it's a bit more than you said you wanted to budget for.

Food for thought... good luck and let us know what yo decide.

http://www.supergo.com/profile.cfm?LPROD_ID=26064&lsubcat_id=7618&lcat_id=7604&referpage=

http://www.supergo.com/profile.cfm?LPROD_ID=25871


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## kjkish (Jul 15, 2005)

Check out www.flyte1.com

I have an Airborne Thunderbolt (which is now the Flyte SRS-3 http://www.flyte1.com/soar/janette/store/SRS3.asp )

Mine has all Ultegra and Bontrager components. Just make sure there is a size that fits you. Luckily, it has frame specs very close to the Trek Madone, and I had previously used a Madone during a weekend get away with Trek Travel, so I knew the Thunderbolt would fit me well (56cm).


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

Generally speaking the quality of the "off" brand bikes is good and certainly good enough for the riding you describe.

For what you want to do (and what most of us here do) any bike in the $700 to $1200 range will suffice. Aluminum, steel, carbon fiber combo whatever. Ultegra, 105, even Sora/tiagra. All are decent. However for some reason I would try to stick with 105 or better.

What is the difference is the service. While you might be able to get a slightly better quality bike (ultegra vs 105) from the off brand bikes what you don't get is the in shop service. This service should include help with fit (if not a complete fit process), assembly, tune ups and discounts on accessories.

If you don't think you would end up taking advantage of the services from the LBS than internet maybe the way to go.

If you don't know what size you need, how to assemble and adjust, and enough to buy all you accessories with out any help than you should go with a local bike shop.

If in a year or two from now you are totally eaten up with the road bike bug than you will most likely want to buy something else no matter what you buy today. This is true even though what you buy now would probably be plenty good enough. For many of us the hobby is about the bikes as much as the riding. Sad but true.

If you go with an internet bike than spend an evening doing research. There are easily a dozens sites that all sell similar products at similar prices. 


Leader, Ibex, Flyte, Supergo, performance, nashbar, Randell scott cycles, Iron horse, and even bikesdirect.

Search a few of the sites and pick a couple in your price range that you like the looks of. Don't hesitate to call and ask them about their service, their fit suggestions. I would also recommend that you ask about who they hire to assemble and pack the bike. A few of the above will use seasoned pros and some will use kids.

If you find something at nashbar or performance check the "hot deals" forum or goggle for the latest coupon codes.

My last thoughts. IMO if you are informed enough to buy from an internet seller than you are also informed enough to buy used. It can be a total pain but if you have the time and enjoy doing the research you can get some get deals used. Check craiglist, ebay and the classifieds here. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER pay anyone for anything via Western Union. If you do you will never see your money or the bike. Also, if buying used, IMO, it is a must to talk to the person on the phone.

Good Luck and let us know how it turned out.


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## HAL9000 (May 1, 2002)

GT705, heed what lifelover said. Spot on!


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## everydaybike (Feb 25, 2005)

As Lifelover says

"NEVER, NEVER, NEVER pay anyone for anything via Western Union. If you do you will never see your money or the bike. Also, if buying used, IMO, it is a must to talk to the person on the phone."

This is an absolute!

Cheers...


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## mandovoodoo (Aug 27, 2005)

Don't underestimate the amount of tweeking required for an un set up bike. My wife and I sat down and figured out the geometry she needed. We got an inexpensive eBay new bike, AL w/carbon fork, 105 level. Immediately replaced tires, tubes, rim strips, saddle, pedals, handlebar tape. Wheels took a good deal of tweeking. Had to properly position & adjust everything. Now the bike works great and she loves it. 

If you aren't sure you can do all that tweeking and fitting, then paying a little more for setup is worth it. Developing a relationship with an LBS is also worth a little more $.


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## regan (Jun 17, 2004)

GT705 said:


> I have just decided to take up road biking as part of my goal to try my first sprint triathlon, and I have already gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from this excellent site. I am a 5' 5.5", 135lb, 40 year-old guy in very good shape from running, calisthenics, and weights. My goal is to get the greatest value on the purchase of my first bike without spending over $1,000. I plan to ride it primarily for road training and possibly a little indoor training on something like a CycleOps, no more than two sprint triathlons in the next year, and possibly something like a local MS150 ride about a year from now. I've noticed all the recommendations of familiar brands and it looks like the only unfamiliar brand that made the site's Top200 list is the Motobecane Le Champion SL, but I'd like to hear informed opinions on the Windsor and Mercier brands that Bikesdirect sells, and also IBEX. Are they great deals for the money too, or should I stick to Trek/Cannondale/Giant/Specialized? Thanks in advance.
> 
> P.S. My biking-guru friend will hate me if I buy via mail-order. What's so wrong about that? I am very mechanically inclined and easily learn to do all the adjustment/calibration/maintenance stuff myself.


 In your price range, you're better off buying a name brand 105 level bike from your local LBS. The performance gains or any other perceived gain from buying mail order isn't going to be so severe that you just have to buy mail order.

At the most, you save $100. But you risk having an ill-fitting bike or a bike with mechanical problems. Since you don't have an LBS to return to for help, expect to pay that $100 in service charges over the next couple of months while you try to dial in the bike.

In my opinion, it'd be foolish to buy mail-order when the savings vs. risk is not worth it.


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## cpuffe (Aug 1, 2004)

A year ago I was looking at Ultegra level bikes. I was considering Trek 2100, Cannondale R1000, Lemond Alpe D'Huez, and Felt F65. Each of these bikes had some compromises that I was not happy about, none had true full Ultegra groupsets. One of my friends back East knew a guy that bought a bike from Leader Bike, and was racing on it, so I called him up and discussed it. Long story short, I bought a Leader 735R, bought it direct from Leader Bike brand new on eBay, and I love it. The frame is comparable in ride quality to a Cannondale CAAD8, ultra stiff laterally yet somewhat forgiving over bumps because of the curved chainstays. I got a true full Ultegra groupset, I got to customize all kinds of details like stem length, cassette, and handlebar width that I'd have to pay extra for if I bought a bike from a LBS, and I paid over $600 less than I'd have paid for any comparable bike at a LBS.

However...I have a full set of bike specific tools including a repair stand, as well as the skill to do the full assembly on my own (cutting the carbon steerer was hair raising let me tell you). This thing does not come assembled at all...you get a box with frame, a box with wheels, and a box with pieces parts. It would probably have cost at least $100 to pay a shop to do the build.


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## cthomas (Oct 26, 2003)

*Get a bike fitting...It is worth it*

Great feedback from mandovoodoo. Between me, my wife, and two teenagers we have quite a collection of road bikes. I have purchased from both my LBS and online. The one thing you CANNOT overlook is fit, especially if you are new. Find a bike shop that will do a fitting, whether on a bike (like the Serotta program) or using measurements. The results will tell you what frame geometry, stem, seatpost height, etc. you need to make your bike fit you comfortably. You can't just think a bike fits because you can stand over it.

I have done the Serotta program, and the total cost was $90 for a one hour fitting. May seem like a lot, but in the end I have a complete set of specs that I have adapted for all my bikes. I even had a custom Seven built to the frame geometry set up by the fitting. 

Once you have these specs, then you can pretty much buy with confidence assuming you know the frame geometry.

Final note: I have a pretty complete workshop in my garage and am comfortable doing all the cutting, adjustments, assembly, etc. If you don't, your LBS is probably the right way to go. If you buy your bike from them, they will generally help set the bike up right and will even swap out saddles, stems, etc. to get the right fit for you. (Mind you, I am not a schill for the LBS...I know more about wrenching than most of the people working at mine.)

If you look at LBS brands, I have found that Fuji is one of the best spec'd bike brands for the price. 

Remember, the best bike in the world is the one that fits you. If it doesn't, you won't ride it.


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## IAmCosmo (Jul 26, 2005)

Well, I haven never ridden a Motobecane, but a few people I ride with have them. It seems like their bikes are hit or miss. A couple riders have over 3000 miles on them without the first problem. Another can't ride it 10 miles without something going wrong. So, it looks like a roll of the dice as to whether or not you are going to have a problem.

My opinion, however, is that you should spend the extra cash and buy a brand name locally. In addition to supporting your LBS (which gives you good karma) you can have them help you fit the bike to you, and if anything goes wrong, you have somewhere to take it. To me, that's worth the extra money.

It doesn't matter how good of a deal the bike is if it doesn't fit you correctly.


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## OCRRider (Oct 2, 2005)

Look at the Giant OCR1...$1000 and great components package.


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## fmw (Sep 28, 2005)

I think it's black and white. If you are like me and do your own bicycle maintenance, then you should never pay the prices needed to buy a bike at an LBS. If you are not like me and don't want to do your own maintenance, then that is exactly where you should buy your bike. I think it is that simple. I have never ridden a Giant bike but I have seen the OCR 1 mentioned above and it looks like a pretty good machine for the money. Lots of people are also happy with the Trek 1000 or 1200 which are in your price range.

If you'd like to see what someone like me does with a mail order bike, just click on the first one in my signature. I bought a Motobecane Le Champion from bikesdirect.com. I stripped it, sold the wheels, brakes, bottom bracket, seat post and front derailleur. I bought replacement parts more to my liking and put everything on a beautiful new carbon fiber frameset. The result is a 16 lb. road bike that cost me about $1600 with very good componentry. What did I do with the Motobecane frame (a 2004 Fuji Team SL frame)? Click on bike #2. That bike cost me about $800 , including the custom paint job, and has mostly Campgnolo Chorus componentry. These bikes look like and ride like high end bikes from the LBS. You wouldn't be able to buy bikes like these for twice the money at an LBS. So a place like bikesdirect.com is perfect for me. It is a good place to buy good parts cheaply. If you don't want to get into this type of thing, then I'd recommend the LBS. I mean that sincerely.


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## KSF666 (Oct 4, 2005)

*Felt!!*

Try checking out a Felt F90! Great bike for the money!

http://www.feltracing.com/2005_bikes/2005_f1c.html

I just ordered from my LBS didnt have my size in stock  (60cm)


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## 633 (Feb 10, 2004)

My standard advice to newbies is to get a good idea what size you need by using one of the online fit calculators, like Colorado Cyclist's or Wrench Science's (google "bike fit calculator"), then buy a decent used bike. Don't overspend. Ride it for a year. Once you've figured out what you like and don't like, and once you've adjusted to road riding, then have a professional fit and buy a bike you'll really like.

The advice that newbies should buy from their LBS and get good advice and a good fit always sounds reasonable. Problem is that in the real world, the bike shop floor staff often doesn't know much more about bikes than the average customer, isn't particularly well-trained in doing a fit, and is highly motivated to sell what they have on the shop floor. If you can really find a shop that'll put you on a trainer and adjust your fit by adjusting saddle position, swapping out stems, and so on, then that shop's a keeper. But I've known dozens of guys - and seen many more post here - who've had an LBS fit session that consisted of, "Okay, stand over this bike. Yep, clearance looks OK. That one fits."

The other problem is that if you're totally new to the sport, you don't have bike strength and flexibility built up yet - even if you're in great shape otherwise, your body hasn't adjusted to road cycling. So as you ride more and more, your body adjusts, and so wasting $100 on a professional fit session when you're brand new isn't that productive. Once you've ridden for six months to a year, it can be the best $100 you'll spend.

So I think buying used, or buying new via mail order is a pretty good strategy. If you take to riding, in a year, you'll want something better than an entry level bike anyway, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to spend a lot up front. That's my take, anyway.


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## gambo2166 (Oct 20, 2004)

It all depends on the shop. The shop I work at has a uscf elite level coach and all our bike have free life time tune-ups and a free 1.5 hour fitting. It would be great if all bike shops could offer stuff like this. I know we are in the minority. 
http://bikebarn.net/site/intro.cfm


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## Nathan_P (Jul 28, 2004)

It's one thing when the shop has like, 2 road bikes and 30 cruisers and mountains, and another when you go to a real shop, with just road and mountain, and sometimes more road. I am going to be getting a new bike soon, and I'm going to be driving from Lodi where I live to Davis, which is about an hour drive, so that I can go to the two of the best shops in the area. (Wheelworks and Freewheeler). The funny thing is that the guy that owns wheelworks used to work at freewheeler, but anyway, both are great shops and I'm willing to drive that far to get their kind of service.


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## ibexbikes (Apr 28, 2004)

team_sheepshead said:


> ...start with a search of RBR.com for terms like "BikesDirect" and "Motobecane" and "Ibex." After you do a search, you will understand that that "click" you just heard was you stepping on the BikesDirect landmine...


I'm not sure why you felt compelled to include IBEX in your quip. We at IBEX always post here as Company CSR's, never playing the shill game... we do our utmost to produce the very best bikes possible, provide excellent customer service (both before and after the sale), and we set our prices at least 25% below LBS pricing on comparable big-name-brand models found there (even though we are usually significantly better spec'd than they). I think you will find that the reviews on RoadBikeReview and the comments in this Forum from informed posters prove this out.

In other words, we make mighty fine bikes and sell them significantly below the market. We don't "cut corners" on our bikes, but rather, streamline the distribution process by selling direct to the consumer to keep our prices down. We generally stock over 1500 bikes at any given time, so you will never find us mis-advising potential customers based on only having a particular model or size on-hand as many LBS' are notorious for doing. We produce our own products and know every nut and bolt inside and out like no bike shop ever could. We are tied into the OEM market so that we know what's coming down the pipeline from virtually every major parts producer at least 8-months in advance of the LBS. Next years offerings are introduced for OEM buyers in March, while the LBS' are unlikely to know what's new for the next year until Interbike in October... if they are big enough to attend, which most aren't. We have extensive R&D capability with our own staff and racing teams, so we know what works and we know where to avoid selecting components with potential problems. How many LBS' can say the same?

Jack A.
Owner
IBEX Bicycles


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## whateveronfire (Sep 27, 2005)

I don't post much, but wanted to share my IBEX experience.

I wanted a bike to ride at my folks' house, which I visit three or four times a year. They live in Atlanta and I live in SoCal, so transporting is a little difficult.

I bought the bottom-of-the-line IBEX, the Classic 3300. I went directly to their warehouse and paid to have them assemble it. I swapped out only the pedals and the seat. The 3300 is what it is, a low-end bike. But, for $400, what's to complain about? The steel fork makes it a decently smooth ride, though it's a little heavy. The Sora components are Sora components. I would have preferred brifters to down-tube, but whatever. The bike's fit and finish are excellent. 

The folks at IBEX are nice and helpful, and exactly what they say they are. The bikes are worth looking at. I have even been thinking of an X-Ray as a cross/commuter.


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## KonaMan (Sep 22, 2004)

kjkish said:


> Check out www.flyte1.com
> 
> I have an Airborne Thunderbolt (which is now the Flyte SRS-3 http://www.flyte1.com/soar/janette/store/SRS3.asp )
> 
> Mine has all Ultegra and Bontrager components. Just make sure there is a size that fits you. Luckily, it has frame specs very close to the Trek Madone, and I had previously used a Madone during a weekend get away with Trek Travel, so I knew the Thunderbolt would fit me well (56cm).


The funny thing about those Flyte guys is that they will swear on their mother's grave that the "new" flyte bikes are "absolutely nothing" like the original designs and are "greatly improved"... whatever dude. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, walks like a duck... guess what??? It's a freaking duck!

That being said, the bikes are great quality, no complaints here on my Airborne. But if you want a straight answer on the new flyte bikes, ask on the forum and get input from the owners of the Airborne bikes.


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## Flyte Bicycles (Nov 16, 2005)

KonaMan said:


> The funny thing about those Flyte guys is that they will swear on their mother's grave that the "new" flyte bikes are "absolutely nothing" like the original designs and are "greatly improved"... whatever dude. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, walks like a duck... guess what??? It's a freaking duck!
> 
> That being said, the bikes are great quality, no complaints here on my Airborne. But if you want a straight answer on the new flyte bikes, ask on the forum and get input from the owners of the Airborne bikes.


Ummm Okay.  We have 3 bikes out of 10 (SRS-3, Arsenal, and XLS-3) that are exactly the same as the Airborne bikes but the rest of the line (they might look the same but when you look at geometry and tubing changes, it pretty much makes them nothing like the airborne bikes) is all new designs/geometry. We also have 2-3 new bikes that we hope to have out by the end of this summer that we have never done before.  

You can also ask me for answers. To my knowledge I give straight answers.


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## curtw (Mar 27, 2004)

Lifelover said:


> What is the difference is the service. While you might be able to get a slightly better quality bike (ultegra vs 105) from the off brand bikes what you don't get is the in shop service. This service should include help with fit (if not a complete fit process), assembly, tune ups and discounts on accessories.


You're joking, right? Please point me to this shop. Here in Houston, it's the tune-ups and accessories that are the LBS profit centers. Sure, you can get a free 30-day tune-up, but that's where it ends (and Flyte even offers a rebate to cover this cost when you buy a bike). I'm in the market for a new floor pump, and it looks like I won't be able to walk out the door with one for less than $35. $20 for bottle cages. Toolbags starting at $15. A set of folding Allen wrenches for $20 (even though the same tool is $8 at the hardware shop next door). And those things certainly wouldn't be any cheaper even if they appeared on a ticket with a new Madone.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

*Looked in the mirror lately*



curtw said:


> You're joking, right? Please point me to this shop. Here in Houston, it's the tune-ups and accessories that are the LBS profit centers. Sure, you can get a free 30-day tune-up, but that's where it ends (and Flyte even offers a rebate to cover this cost when you buy a bike). I'm in the market for a new floor pump, and it looks like I won't be able to walk out the door with one for less than $35. $20 for bottle cages. Toolbags starting at $15. A set of folding Allen wrenches for $20 (even though the same tool is $8 at the hardware shop next door). And those things certainly wouldn't be any cheaper even if they appeared on a ticket with a new Madone.


Maybe you have Sucker tattooed on you forehead?

Every shop I've talked with in the Tidewater area offers some level of fitting (some better than others), minimum of 1 year tune ups (as many as you feel you need and many shops offer lifetime), and at least a 10% discount for any accessories bought at the same time (or within 30 days) as the bike.

If you can't get that out of any shops in Houston than you may want to consider moving.

All that said I would highly recommend Flyte. I have an Airborne and it is my understand that they will offer as good or better service than any other E-retailer out there. I have never read a bad review regarding the way they treat customers.


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## KSF666 (Oct 4, 2005)

*Felt is a good choice*




GT705 said:


> I have just decided to take up road biking as part of my goal to try my first sprint triathlon, and I have already gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from this excellent site. I am a 5' 5.5", 135lb, 40 year-old guy in very good shape from running, calisthenics, and weights. My goal is to get the greatest value on the purchase of my first bike without spending over $1,000. I plan to ride it primarily for road training and possibly a little indoor training on something like a CycleOps, no more than two sprint triathlons in the next year, and possibly something like a local MS150 ride about a year from now. I've noticed all the recommendations of familiar brands and it looks like the only unfamiliar brand that made the site's Top200 list is the Motobecane Le Champion SL, but I'd like to hear informed opinions on the Windsor and Mercier brands that Bikesdirect sells, and also IBEX. Are they great deals for the money too, or should I stick to Trek/Cannondale/Giant/Specialized? Thanks in advance.
> 
> P.S. My biking-guru friend will hate me if I buy via mail-order. What's so wrong about that? I am very mechanically inclined and easily learn to do all the adjustment/calibration/maintenance stuff myself.



check out the Felt F90 good alum. frame great price I have been very happy with my 06 Felt.You could pick one up for under $1000.00


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## Cyclehead (Mar 2, 2008)

*reply to GT705's Question re. under $1,000 bikes*

I have just visited one of the 90+ Performance Bike shops that have sprung up almost overnight around the USA.. They are having a breathtaking sale of bikes, specifcally the Fuji Carbon Fiber for just under $1,000. I tried it out on their indoor trainer and was impressed. 
Fuji is one of many brands made by Giant's major competitor in Taiwan [it is a very forgettable name such as Quality Cycles]. Take a gander at Performance on-line, but you may as well buy from one of their stores, because you will have to pay the sales tax due to their doing business in your state or province AND you will have to pay shipping and set it up yourself if you by Mail Order (an old-fashioned phrase if ever there were one).
Cyclehead


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## jtdbsr (Jan 7, 2007)

I don't know if you're still looking, but I just picked up mine from jensonusa.com for $999 with 105 components:


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