# Power requirements for your races.



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Yours truly has not done much real racing in the past couple of seasons, but life may just permit it again sooner or later here.

I've been fussing about with a powertap, and curious for those who have had the numbers pinned on, what kind of power, and for how long, it has taken to make a move stick, stay with the front group, and what have you, in your races.

For a JRA guy, I was pretty satisfied to see what seemed like solid 5-to-20-minute power numbers on some recent rides, but, yours truly can't sprint worth beans...

In short: People have a lot of opinions about Coggan's estimates. How's that playing out in yorur real world?


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## empty_set (Nov 1, 2006)

Send me a powertap and I'll get back to you.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Requirements: more than I have. Yikes.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Last season at the state championship road race for the Masters 40-49 group I averaged 440 watts for 4 minutes and got dropped on the first climb by about 1.5 minutes on an 8-9 minute climb. Granted I'm 190'ish pounds...however a teammate of mine who blew himself up at the top averaged 5.9 w/kg for the entire climb and was the 6th fastest over the top...I ended up passing him on the backside of the climb because I didn't blow up like he did.

With that said...I usually have anywhere between 320-340 watt averages for 20 minutes that take place somewhere in the race, with a 5 minute average in the 400+ watt range.

My 5 second numbers run anywhere from 1100 - 1350 watt range in sprint finishes. This year I haven't finished outside of the top 5 in any of the races I've entered.

Here are some numbers from road races I've competed in this year:

52.098 miles
2:30:59 ride time
Average power: 257 watts (NP 312 watts)
20 min power: 343 watts
30 min power: 318 watts
60 min power: 300 watts


55.7 miles raced
2:26:58 total time
Average watts: 280 (NP 316 watts)
Max power: 1416 watts
20 min power: 329 watts
60 min power: 313 watts
Average HR: 155 bpm
TSS: 224.2


Total time of race: 2:26:42
Average watts: 236 (NP 308 watts...all the accelerations)
Max watts: 1294
Average speed: 22.6 mph
TSS: 213.4


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Thanks Wookie.

That makes me feel like I ain't that far off.

I didn't have a power meter when I WAS racing, and now that I've got one, I haven't been, as predictably ironic as THAT is. 

The hills around here, they are much shorter than I had -- lots of 3-to-5-minutes. PDX has tons of 10-minute climbs! miss those.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Argentius said:


> In short: People have a lot of opinions about Coggan's estimates. How's that playing out in yorur real world?


Which estimates?


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Which estimates?


The "power profiles." which give a range for estimated categories of competition for given power outputs.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Argentius said:


> The "power profiles." which give a range for estimated categories of competition for given power outputs.


That's not what power profiling is about. Have you read the accompanying notes?


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

I could explain more, but for starters I'll stick with: yes.

I even bought the book and went to a seminar.

What are you trying to say?



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> That's not what power profiling is about. Have you read the accompanying notes?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Argentius said:


> I could explain more, but for starters I'll stick with: yes.
> 
> I even bought the book and went to a seminar.
> 
> What are you trying to say?


That, as the author points out, power profiling is not about race categories or comparing with others (that is the single most common mistake made with those tables). It is about understanding your own self / assessing physiological strengths and weaknesses.

If you want to know what category you can race, you stick a number on your back and go race.

Nevertheless, if you have the threshold W/kg indicated and can't compete in a given category, it's probably not your threshold power output that's holding you back.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Why do you think I asked the forum for their real-world experiences, rather than just looking at the table and calling it macaroni?

The percentage of amateurs racing and training with power has skyrocketed in the time I've been off.



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> That, as the author points out, power profiling is not about race categories or comparing with others (that is the single most common mistake made with those tables). It is about understanding your own self / assessing physiological strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> If you want to know what category you can race, you stick a number on your back and go race.
> 
> Nevertheless, if you have the threshold W/kg indicated and can't compete in a given category, it's probably not your threshold power output that's holding you back.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Argentius said:


> Why do you think I asked the forum for their real-world experiences, rather than just looking at the table and calling it macaroni?


I don't know since I can't see what actionable intelligence will you attain, other than to satisfy curiosity.

I will tell you the answer - some will fall right in the middle of the "levels", some won't, some will say their cat racing in this state is harder / easier than in another state, some will complain about their sprint even though they get to end OK, some will be talking hillclimbs, other crits and so on. what matters in each scenario is quite different.



Argentius said:


> The percentage of amateurs racing and training with power has skyrocketed in the time I've been off.


That's true.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

As Coggan says, " Aside from satisfying people's natural curiosity, though, such category-based values would seem to have limited practical use.,."

Surely you can enjoy stepping back and geeking out about bike racing?

I will not gain any "actionable intelligence" from addressing the beauty or "ride quality" of a Pinarello or the ephemeral qualities of a handmade steel frame, but, there's plenty of space for that, too.



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I don't know since I can't see what actionable intelligence will you attain, *other than to satisfy curiosity.*
> 
> I will tell you the answer - some will fall right in the middle of the "levels", some won't, some will say their cat racing in this state is harder / easier than in another state, some will complain about their sprint even though they get to end OK, some will be talking hillclimbs, other crits and so on. what matters in each scenario is quite different.
> 
> ...


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

I'm heavier than Wookie, if I want to be in the running in local masters' circuit races, my AP will run over 300 for 60-90min, and NP more like 375.

In a nasty hill climb a few weeks ago, my AP was 315 for 2:12:00, and that included a long, gradual descent spent tucked in at 45mph.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Argentius said:


> As Coggan says, " Aside from satisfying people's natural curiosity, though, such category-based values would seem to have limited practical use.,."
> 
> Surely you can enjoy stepping back and geeking out about bike racing?
> 
> I will not gain any "actionable intelligence" from addressing the beauty or "ride quality" of a Pinarello or the ephemeral qualities of a handmade steel frame, but, there's plenty of space for that, too.


I have viewed 10's of thousands of power meter files and so get plenty of geeking time as it is 

Didn't mean to be a wet blanket - just making sure that power profiles are not taken out of context (which they often are).


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## wetpaint (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm ~140 pounds and a cat 3. For road races, my lowest NP was 221 on a very flat race and highest was 245w for 3hrs. Average power for a road race usually ends up 180-190w.

I did one crit last year, AP=250w, NP=285w. A circuit race I did had an AP=241w NP of 313w, average power for both was around.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Argentius, your weight will make a huge difference on your power numbers. So try and compare peoples power numbers that have a weight similar to yours. No point in viewing someone that is 30 pounds lighter as their power numbers will probably be low in context to what you will need to produce to be competitive.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

nightfend said:


> Argentius, your weight will make a huge difference on your power numbers. So try and compare peoples power numbers that have a weight similar to yours. No point in viewing someone that is 30 pounds lighter as their power numbers will probably be low in context to what you will need to produce to be competitive.


Power numbers are important...but a better way to look at it is Power/Weight ratio.

The power numbers in general are important because in every road race this season I've been in a break away won it. On those break away attempts there was a large amount of time spent on the flats with cross winds (which helped create the separation). It was the power/TT riders that were able to break away not the lighter climber type riders. So, if you didn't have a fairly large amount of power (high FTP)...you were not going to win those races regardless of what you weighed. So for flatter races...power numbers are important.

If it's a hilly race, like some of the stage races around here in the NW it's all about power/weight and big guys with big power numbers get blown out of the water, so the big power numbers are not as important in those.

That's why I put both in my response...Mine are power numbers because I generally race flatter races with a few small hills thrown in for good measure. My teammate I put his power/weight number because it took place on a climb.

So it depends on the race as to whether power numbers or power/weight is more important.

With that said...the three most important power ranges to look at when it comes to most races are your 5 second, 1 minute and 5 minute numbers...just because you have to be able to stay with the surges to make a break away, then when it comes time to sprint at the end you need good 1 minute and 5 second numbers. The more climbs you have in a race the more it changes over to 10, 20 and FTP power numbers.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Hey Argentius...at my peak a couple seasons ago I was approximately 4.4 to 4.5 W/kg. I had a fair amount of success in punchy crits, circuits and hilly road races. I got dropped on long climbs when the grade went beyond approx 5-6%. I was 75kg and 5'9". Upgraded to 2 at 40 and had a lot of success in the 40+ world. I did well in cat2 only races but not so well in p1/2 stuff.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Here's what it takes to win the Elite Crit Natz:

http://bit.ly/msr750

http://supersquadra.net/?p=2628


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Thanks for the feedback, folks -- keep 'em coming.

@woodys, over what period of time were you able to generate ~4.5 w/kg?

@nightfend et al, clearly W/kg is the important metric, so, I would be happy to have you include that number in your responses -- or your weight, and I can crunch the numbers.

Yours truly is not exactly grande-sized, so, if he had to consider his performance on a raw wattage output only, he'd have given up long ago...


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Argentius,

Just for reference as far as max power numbers:


My max 5 second power is 1391 watts (15.69 w/kg)
My max 1 minute power is 654 watts (7.73 w/kg)
My max 5 minute power is 438 watts (4.94 w/kg)
My max 20 minute power is 391 watts (which was 4.41 w/kg)
My FTP is around 340 watts (3.83 w/kg)

However, those are max wattage's and not necessarily race wattage's, though I did hit some of those in races. Also remember, I'm a competitive CAT 3/Masters racer who races mostly in Masters 40+ open or 1/2/3 races.

This year I haven't hit some of the wattage's I have in races past, mostly because of the number of breakaways I was involved in this year...and racing smarter.

Last year it wasn't unusual for me to hit 360 - 370 (4.06 w/kg) - 4.17 w/kg) watts for 20 minutes during a race. 

One race last season that was very flat, but had lots of cross winds, I had the following power numbers: 


370 watts (4.17 w/kg) for the first 20 minutes
333 watts (3.75 w/kg) for the first hour
309 watts (3.48 w/kg) for the first 2 hours
Finished with a 1351 watt (15.24 w/kg) sprint.

I however took second in that race because the guy I went out on a 2 man breakaway rode away from me with about 10 miles to go and I then let up to jump in with a 4 man chase group. With that said, the only people to get in the breakaway's were big/strong TT guys who put out a high FTP but not a high w/kg.

I really consider myself to be a TT racer who has a sprint. So if I can get into a small breakaway I have a great chance at placing well because I have a high FTP but can still sprint at the end. 

However, I'm an average climber because I weigh too much to have a high w/kg ratio on anything over 5 minutes....Unless the grade is shallow enough I can get a draft off the group, then i can hang on. Anything over 6% and I'm toast!!! :mad2: The only other way I stay on is if the backside of the climb has a very technical descent because I can fly down hills and generally make up a lot of time lost on the climb.

Overall, my race power outputs are a little lower this year than last year...so something to take into consideration...though I did break my 40k ITT PR by 1.5 minutes this year, however I can't get power numbers from that since I don't have any power measuring devices on my TT bike...though using online calculators it puts me around 340 watts for 54:18 on a TT bike, which might make my FTP on a road bike a bit higher than 340 watts, either that or I have a very good position on my TT bike


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> Argentius,
> 
> 
> My max 5 second power is 1391 watts (15.69 w/kg)
> ...


Those are very good numbers for a Cat.3. Time to upgrade?


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

nightfend said:


> Those are very good numbers for a Cat.3. Time to upgrade?


Nah, I'm old and not getting any younger...the Masters 1/2 guys are fast enough as it is


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Thanks for sharing, again. 

I'm a great example of "watts per kilo isn't everything," I suppose! Still interesting to pretend-compare.

Though, Wookie probably saw me getting dropped by, was it Rathe, at that silly ride in Portland a couple of months ago? He got just out of sight with two other guys, then I took a wrong turn and ended up in the second group on College, then got stuck in no-mans land between those guys and the leaders, took ANOTHER wrong turn, and so forth.

Made me think "hey, in real races have a lead car!"

But, then, also "real races don't have this many hills and they are such a -production- to do!"


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Argentius said:


> Snip...
> @woodys, over what period of time were you able to generate ~4.5 w/kg?


Not 100% but I peaked in the middle of one month and did 4.4w/kg 6 weeks later on a climbing TT. I was injured shortly after that.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

I mean, for how many minutes?



woodys737 said:


> Not 100% but I peaked in the middle of one month and did 4.4w/kg 6 weeks later on a climbing TT. I was injured shortly after that.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Argentius said:


> I mean, for how many minutes?


All based on 20 minute FTP tests. The uphill TT took just over 20 minutes as well. This was 2009 data.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

Usually for local P1/2 Utah races, peak power looks something like this: 
60 min: 280-310ish
20 min: 320-340
5 min:360-390
2 min: 430-500 
1 min: 500-600 
5 second: 1000-1200
Peak: 1250-1300

Peak power for stage 1 of Mt. Hood this year (sea level, coming from altitude)
60: 345
20: 393 (22 minute TT the next day at 370) 
10: 420
5: 430
Dont remember anything past that to be honest... My weight is 150-152 (68ish kilo) 

For most local races, I have found that you can do really well if you can maintain around 280-300 and put in some good 1-2 minute efforts around 400-450.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Thanks for the comparative pro-level feedback, Chase. 

I cannot do the kind of numbers you're talking, but, it makes me feel pretty comfortable for how little real training I've done for the last couple of seasons.

The local race numbers you mention are managable, but Hood, uffda, that was a hard race a few years back, and it STILL sounds hard. I haven't done more than 6w/kg for 5 minutes this season...





chase196126 said:


> Usually for local P1/2 Utah races, peak power looks something like this:
> 60 min: 280-310ish
> 20 min: 320-340
> 5 min:360-390
> ...


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Since everyone else is kicking in:

Bear Mountain '11. Combined cat 3/35+ field. 6th in the 3's, definitely the hardest race this year.

54 miles, 2.5 hrs, 300 watts NP, 400 watts for 9 minutes during the first climb. Natty champ Roger Aspholm road away from me (and everyone else) like I was standing still.

I'm a cat 3 who sucks at breakaways, is a decent climber and can win most field sprints. *edit* and I'm 185 lbs.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

My sprint is my strong suit. If it is a flat semi techinical crit, I'm good to go. I am working on getting to fully use my sprint now that I am a cat 3......(deffinately a bit more gassed at the end compared to the 4's). 

190lbs

Max power over this season
1721 for 1 sec
1542 for 5 sec
628 for 1 min
502 for 2 min
402 for 5 min
331 for 20 min
314 for 60 min

As you can see my power drops off quick. I am good and moving up in a feild but not that good at staying moved up in the final laps. But I have only done 3 cat 3 races and they were big regional ones with top 1/3 placings. Just out of the money (20 deep).


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

Argentius said:


> Thanks for the comparative pro-level feedback, Chase.
> 
> I cannot do the kind of numbers you're talking, but, it makes me feel pretty comfortable for how little real training I've done for the last couple of seasons.
> 
> The local race numbers you mention are managable, but Hood, uffda, that was a hard race a few years back, and it STILL sounds hard. I haven't done more than 6w/kg for 5 minutes this season...


I wouldnt worry about super high peak power numbers too much. As you train more you will just get stronger and stronger! 

The big thing I have found this year is that being able to produce super high numbers is important, but not as important as being able to produce high numbers over and over again. I think so many guys are capable of doing some incredible power once during a race, but if it comes too early they are fried. A lot of times I find that the first hour of a race I am one of the weaker guys but as the miles pile on guys begin to fade. At that point my more middle of the road power stays the same, becoming comparatively stronger to theirs.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Wookiebiker said:


> My max 5 minute power is 438 watts (4.94 w/kg)
> My max 20 minute power is 391 watts (which was 4.41 w/kg)
> My FTP is around 340 watts (3.83 w/kg)


I would say your FTP is probably higher than that. 
4.0 - 4.2 W/kg


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Argentius said:


> Thanks for the comparative pro-level feedback, Chase.
> 
> I cannot do the kind of numbers you're talking, but, it makes me feel pretty comfortable for how little real training I've done for the last couple of seasons.
> 
> The local race numbers you mention are managable, but Hood, uffda, that was a hard race a few years back, and it STILL sounds hard. I haven't done more than 6w/kg for 5 minutes this season...


And for further comparison, for P/1/2 races in NorCal, at about 10 pounds heavier than Chase and racing for more modest results and with likely a different style (i.e., I am drifting back on medium climbs, chasing back on from longer climbs and working for teammates in crits, really only racing "for myself" on courses that are most shaped by power climbs, rollers and wind): 

Specifics race info that I recall as being about all I had to give in the circumstances:
~27 minute SR TT @349 (a slight climb out and a slight descent back; higher number on the out for what I still considered pretty good even pacing; this was my first experience trying to put out a respectable TT (to preserve my own decent overall position) while holding back from an all-out effort because I had a teammate sitting just outside the podium and needed to help him in the crit)
5 times up ~6.5 minute climb averaging 400-430 
over 900 watts over 40 times in a 90 minute crit

Peaks

60: 323
20: 380
10: 387
5: 461
1: 704
:30: 812
:05: 1457
:01: 1547

As I have seen in prior seasons, my "what I can do today" sprinting numbers have fallen off quite a bit as my 20 minute number has gone up somewhat modestly.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

I've got exactly the kind of problem you mention. Being able to hold it in the yellow, as it were, and then drill it well into the red, repeatedly, is really tough. 

I'm just not training hard enough to be competitive right now, but the urge is bouncing around in my head to do it again.

Compared with you, rock star, I'm a semi-burned-out old man -- though I'm a young whippersomethingorother compared to these masters with an axe to grind.

Some people seem to have found the work / life/ race / train balance, but, I have not yet. Geeking out on some other people's race power and living vicariously through that is a nudge of inspiration in the right direction! 



chase196126 said:


> I wouldnt worry about super high peak power numbers too much. As you train more you will just get stronger and stronger!
> 
> The big thing I have found this year is that being able to produce super high numbers is important, but not as important as being able to produce high numbers over and over again. I think so many guys are capable of doing some incredible power once during a race, but if it comes too early they are fried. A lot of times I find that the first hour of a race I am one of the weaker guys but as the miles pile on guys begin to fade. At that point my more middle of the road power stays the same, becoming comparatively stronger to theirs.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Argentius said:


> I've got exactly the kind of problem you mention. Being able to hold it in the yellow, as it were, and then drill it well into the red, repeatedly, is really tough.
> 
> I'm just not training hard enough to be competitive right now, but the urge is bouncing around in my head to do it again.
> 
> ...


I tend to think a lot of the ability to complete repetitive hard efforts comes from a lot of base miles to start the season out with. I'm usually good for about 2 hours of continuous attacks...then I'm done and struggle for the last 30 minutes of most races (assuming they are very hard races).


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

chase196126 said:


> The big thing I have found this year is that being able to produce super high numbers is important, but not as important as being able to produce high numbers over and over again.



So true. This is really lost in the whole Coggan/Hunter power analysis. Everyone reads that first chapter with the power profile thing and wants to make huge peaks but races are longer than 1/5/20 minutes.


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## ridenfish39 (Jun 20, 2008)

Here's my best power since getting a power meter last year, 6'2'', 170lb +/- 3 or 4 lbs depending on beer consumption.
I will NEVER win a crit in a sprint, that's for sure. (unless it's a 1 mile uphill finish)
I did a 394 watt 20 minute last year but didn't download the file.
<table> <tbody><tr> <td>5 sec</td> <td>1130</td> <td>14.7</td> <td>Aug 3, 2010</td> </tr> <tr> <td>30 sec</td> <td>902</td> <td>11.7</td> <td>Jul 11, 2010</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1 min</td> <td>620</td> <td>8.0</td> <td>May 20, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2 min</td> <td>550</td> <td>7.1</td> <td>May 20, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>3 min</td> <td>508</td> <td>6.6</td> <td>May 20, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>4 min</td> <td>498</td> <td>6.5</td> <td>Apr 30, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>5 min</td> <td>485</td> <td>6.3</td> <td>Apr 30, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>10 min</td> <td>386</td> <td>5.0</td> <td>Mar 2, 2010</td> </tr> <tr> <td>15 min</td> <td>384</td> <td>5.0</td> <td>Mar 2, 2010</td> </tr> <tr> <td>20 min</td> <td>384</td> <td>5.0</td> <td>Mar 2, 2010</td> </tr> <tr> <td>30 min</td> <td>349</td> <td>4.5</td> <td>Mar 15, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>40 min</td> <td>346</td> <td>4.5</td> <td>Apr 5, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>60 min</td> <td>332</td> <td>4.3</td> <td>Apr 5, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>90 min</td> <td>287</td> <td>3.7</td> <td>Mar 22, 2011</td> </tr> <tr> <td>120 min</td> <td>268</td> <td>3.5</td> <td>Mar 18, 2011</td> </tr> </tbody></table>


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Argentius said:


> Some people seem to have found the work / life/ race / train balance


there is no such thing... it's more like a shoving match than a balance


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Creakyknees said:


> there is no such thing... it's more like a shoving match than a balance


More like a juggling act where you simply accept you might drop something from time to time.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

spade2you said:


> More like a juggling act where you simply accept you might drop something from time to time.


Or get dropped from time to time


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> Or get dropped from time to time


Or most of the time in my case!


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

kbiker3111 said:


> So true. This is really lost in the whole Coggan/Hunter power analysis. Everyone reads that first chapter with the power profile thing and wants to make huge peaks but races are longer than 1/5/20 minutes.


Yeah - I started out being a wet blanket here as I often see the wrong approach to viewing/interpreting power profile charts.

As for race durations, well some of us do races on the track, such as track TT & pursuits that are 5 minutes and less.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Yeah - I started out being a wet blanket here as I often see the wrong approach to viewing/interpreting power profile charts.
> 
> As for race durations, well some of us do races on the track, such as track TT & pursuits that are 5 minutes and less.


I was going to mention the track, but figured that was OT. The track is probably one of the areas most ripe for power analysis. Did you see Ken Harris's OCD-approach to his masters hour record attempt?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

kbiker3111 said:


> I was going to mention the track, but figured that was OT. The track is probably one of the areas most ripe for power analysis. Did you see Ken Harris's OCD-approach to his masters hour record attempt?


No, but I coached one of my clients to a masters world hour record - 48.317km.

I have a case study presentation I've used as a way to talk through the concepts of training with power. I also wrote more briefly about it on my blog here:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/05/another-hour-of-power.html


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## parity (Feb 28, 2006)

Argentius said:


> For a JRA guy, I was pretty satisfied to see what seemed like solid 5-to-20-minute power numbers on some recent rides, but, yours truly can't sprint worth beans...


Don't know where you live but where I live there are plenty of road races where sprinting isn't needed. And those who can sprint avoid these races like the plague. If you're more of a climber, then really you only have to out sprint the climbers if the finish is relatively flat but the course is hilly/mountainous enough to drop anyone who can sprint. Do you think Andy Schlek cares he can't outsprint Mark Cavendish? Enter the races that suit your strengths then train your ass off. However in the Cat 4/5 races, sprinting a lot more about positioning and timing then all out power.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> Argentius,
> 
> Just for reference as far as max power numbers:
> 
> ...


I appreciate this discussion. I've raced mountain bikes, but have become more of a roadie in the last couple years and have been thinking about jumping into some road races. I'm 42 and don't know where to start. Friends who are experienced racers have told me stay away from the Cat 5 stuff (for safety) and go race with the open masters riders. 

Wookie, thanks for posting your numbers. My numbers are similar to yours in many areas--but I'm a lightweight. My watts/kg is a little higher for 1 minute all the way up to FTP. However, your sprint is higher from a watts/kg perspective and all your raw numbers are way out of my league. I'm guessing I'm one of those guys who could ride away from you on longer climbs, but with a flat or windy race I would stand zero chance at the end because of the big difference in raw power. 

Unfortunately I'm a Classics fan stuck in a climber's body. I joke and say in my next lifetime I'm going to be a Classics rider.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Gatorback said:


> I appreciate this discussion. I've raced mountain bikes, but have become more of a roadie in the last couple years and have been thinking about jumping into some road races. I'm 42 and don't know where to start. Friends who are experienced racers have told me stay away from the Cat 5 stuff (for safety) and go race with the open masters riders.


I don't think that's generally an option (and, no offense, but why reverse the "safety" issue on those more experienced racers?), but even if it is, I don't think it's the better way to learn road racing (unless, I guess, you're strong enough to execute on the tactical and strategic elements of racing in that field).


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

parity said:


> Don't know where you live but where I live there are plenty of road races where sprinting isn't needed. And those who can sprint avoid these races like the plague. If you're more of a climber, then really you only have to out sprint the climbers if the finish is relatively flat but the course is hilly/mountainous enough to drop anyone who can sprint. Do you think Andy Schlek cares he can't outsprint Mark Cavendish? Enter the races that suit your strengths then train your ass off. However in the Cat 4/5 races, sprinting a lot more about positioning and timing then all out power.


I don't think Argi is doing many cat 4/5 races.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

ridenfish39 said:


> Here's my best power since getting a power meter last year, 6'2'', 170lb +/- 3 or 4 lbs depending on beer consumption.


Interesting. We're the same build, and your numbers are practically identical to mine up to 5 mins. Then mine dip away up to 120 mins where they're coming back close to yours again. I think I need to do more 2X20s and HTFU in those TTs.

Thanks for posting.



parity said:


> Do you think Andy Schlek cares he can't outsprint Mark Cavendish?


Maybe he should think about a switch, 'cause he ain't gonna out-climb Bertie.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Around here I think that you'll be just fine. If you can sustain an effort you can stay with the breaks and be just fine. There is a guy at the track who just TTs at the front and usually wins. 

If you're really worried about your sprint you should come on down to the track and do a few points races. That will hone your sprint and threshold for sure. The rental bikes are Raleigh --- 

I race blind so I could only tell you that my race efforts are somewhere between 200 watts and OMG kill me now, please.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Have you SEEN what those sprinters look like? Good god. I'd get slaughtered. Marymoor is not THAT far from Tacoma, but far enough. 100 mile round trip, maybe?

And, my sprint would still suck. This is genetic, I think, I have few fast-twitch muscles. Erm, I'm guessing about that, I've not done a muscle biopsy.

Anyway, if I get back into racing I certainly need to improve my jump, I have not done training that would address this in a couple of seasons, but that is beside my curiosity.

If you ever find out how hard OMG KILL ME NOW is, let me know! 



waldo425 said:


> Around here I think that you'll be just fine. If you can sustain an effort you can stay with the breaks and be just fine. There is a guy at the track who just TTs at the front and usually wins.
> 
> If you're really worried about your sprint you should come on down to the track and do a few points races. That will hone your sprint and threshold for sure. The rental bikes are Raleigh ---
> 
> I race blind so I could only tell you that my race efforts are somewhere between 200 watts and OMG kill me now, please.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Just get out and race!!!

That being said, I'm in the best shape ever, but my field is way stronger than normal. Oh well, I can't do much to change anything but my own fitness. I'll have to be better about things next season.


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## MisterAngular (Feb 6, 2007)

Argentius said:


> The percentage of *amateurs* racing and *training with power* has skyrocketed in the time I've been off.


That would be me! The power meter is a great training tool even if you don't race.

Glad to see/hear you got a power meter, Tyler. Don't worry too much about watts/kg. From what I have read/seen, I think you are fairly modest about your own abilities. :thumbsup:

On a side note, do you ride with the Tacoma Bike guys much/at all? At the risk of embarrassing myself, I'm thinking about checking out the Fight Club ride tonight at 6.

Bradley


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Argentius said:


> Have you SEEN what those sprinters look like? Good god. I'd get slaughtered. Marymoor is not THAT far from Tacoma, but far enough. 100 mile round trip, maybe?
> 
> And, my sprint would still suck. This is genetic, I think, I have few fast-twitch muscles. Erm, I'm guessing about that, I've not done a muscle biopsy.
> 
> ...


I think you would find that in cat 3 track racing road fitness counts for alot. I race aginst big beefy guys who Im sure would kill me in a match sprint but 20 laps into a scratch or a points race they are struggling to hold on.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

Here's more data. Recently upgraded from 4 to 3. 5'10", 160-165 pounds. 44 years old. My strengths are RR with short hills (short by Mountain West standards). 

time Watts W/kg
5 sec	1138	15.5	
30 sec	653	8.9	
1 min	524	7.1	
2 min	419	5.7	
3 min	377	5.1	
4 min	352	4.8	
5 min	346	4.7
10 min	305	4.2	
15 min	293	4.0	
20 min	287	3.9	
30 min	273	3.7

Power data like this fails to measure the ability to hit hard efforts, recovery from them, then hit it again. I'm pretty weak at the finish of crits because of the repeated on-and-off efforts. I seem to do better at long straight finishes, especially if it's a short uphill.

My numbers seem to align well with the Coggan chart, except that I live at altitude (4500+ feet), which I've heard, drops your numbers.


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