# I'm so Naive



## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

I've followed this sport for 3 decades now and I just woke up to what this sport has become, or always was. And for you nay sayers and still hopeful, your awakening will occur. My last straw and final cave in came when a close friend just admitted to doping all the time. He's only a good regional racer, fast but not even a pro or anything, and what's worse he's a Cat 1 who races masters class often, doping all the time. No hope for a contract or future, just like how many guys you know. I guess all the rage is micro-dosing and he felt pressure because as hard as he trains, and magiclly can't keep up to fast guys all of a sudden, just beleives that's the norm. 
Had a friend a few years ago trying to play division 2 football, everyones doing a cycle of roids, he does it too, just to keep up. 
Back to cycling, I heard rumors of others, some even got caught, now I know. 

I think it's funny that everyone yells "everyone is doping" then when one of them breaks the silence, and confesses. Then we disagree and yell "sour grapes" or a sick vindictive man. 
So I'm watching the VS coverage of the history of the Pyrennes and then my heroes, now all dopers. Every name, every face a doper. Virenque, Pantani, Riis, etc. Fast foreword to Lance getting knocked off his bike surrounded by Dopers. Ullrich, Hamilton, Levi, Herras, Basso and Lance Every single one of them doped to the gills, even the near rotten guy down your and my block.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

*+1*



thighmaster said:


> I've followed this sport for 3 decades now and I just woke up to what this sport has become, or always was. And for you nay sayers and still hopeful, your awakening will occur. My last straw and final cave in came when a close friend just admitted to doping all the time. He's only a good regional racer, fast but not even a pro or anything, and what's worse he's a Cat 1 who races masters class often, doping all the time. No hope for a contract or future, just like how many guys you know. I guess all the rage is micro-dosing and he felt pressure because as hard as he trains, and magiclly can't keep up to fast guys all of a sudden, just beleives that's the norm.
> Had a friend a few years ago trying to play division 2 football, everyones doing a cycle of roids, he does it too, just to keep up.
> Back to cycling, I heard rumors of others, some even got caught, now I know.
> 
> ...


Bummer. I know that there are guys in my club that dope or have doped...lame! I have said it before...not sure if YOU read it though. I lose a connection to the pros as I watch them in their amazing efforts during the Spring Classics and TdF. I don't dope, so therefore I can not TOTALLY relate to what I am seeing happen in front of my own eyes. I guess you just need to look at it like professional bodybuilders. They are all on something, BUT still it is the hardest working genetically gifted that wins anyways. SORT OF admirable still right?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

rydbyk said:


> They are all on something, BUT still it is the hardest working genetically gifted that wins anyways. SORT OF admirable still right?


Not always.
Modern doping using blood manipulation skews the results in a way that no amount of Pot Belge could ever do.
Hinault & Fignon both gave similar opinions on the dawn of the EPO age.
Hinault was reported to say that dope couldn't turn a donkey into a racehorse. Fignon commented that he knew things had changed fundamentally when there were riders climbing with him who had "no right to be there".
Speed, cortisone & testosterone have an effect but they were used in an amateur way and the associated risks were relatively low. On the other hand, EPO, HGH & blood transfusions have to be administered in a professional manner or there is a very real risk of death.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm still relying on blind faith when it comes to my club. I chalk up superior performances to superior preparation and genetics.

I'm fat and out of shape (relatively speaking). I won my class (slow guys) in the local stage race this year, so I'm being bumped up a class for next season. To be honest, I'm going to be slaughtered. I have a good 50 lbs on some of those guys, and I can't sprint or climb worth a darn. The only place I can stay with them and actually do something is in a TT. Since I don't want to limit myself to TTs, I'm going to have to re-create myself physically and as a rider in order to hang.

Now a trip down to Mexico or wherever for a "doctor's advice" is a little more expensive for me than for some of you, so that isn't even a remote temptation. To be honest, I've idly thought about it (in the abstract). It seems to be the American way these days, looking for quick results without the work or sacrifice. Weight loss pills, liposuction, "EPO boost", whatever... and those are legal for the average person. Stepping across the line for a more-effective version so you can crush your enemies, Conan-style, seems like just a small moral/ethical jump for some people. 

I know I used all sorts of products from Sports Legs to Endurox R4 to get a small boost in performance this year, so I could train harder and recover faster. The running joke with a riding buddy was that I was on the juice, because all of that training made me a much stronger rider. Am I a doper, even though all of the substances I used to gain an edge were "approved" by a governing body of some type and freely available? I don't think so, but it can be a slippery slope for a competitive-minded individual. I'm not saying Hammer products are gateway drugs, but eventually you plateau with this stuff and some people will do anything to keep climbing.

I don't know how I feel here. I don't think I'd risk my life/health and my family's security taking illegal PEDs just to win a pair of socks or whatever in a prime. However, I risk the same consequences every time I ride on a busy street or red-line on a hill climb. I've knocked 40lbs off my body and built a lot of muscle in the last couple years, which I feel kinda offsets the hazards of the road. Barring an accident or exercise-induced heart attack, I'll be around a long time if I can keep it up and drop more weight. I won't be the 145lb human lung I was 20 years ago, but I'll be closer than I am now. The competitive bastard in me is attracted to racing, and it's one of my big motivations to keep going. I don't like to be left behind. I'll make my eyeballs bleed before that happens. If the barriers to that PED temptation were removed? I can't honestly say. I don't want to know how far I would go for the "easy fix".

As far as the pro peloton goes, I just go with the assumption the all dope to one degree or another. Doping of one sort or another has always been a part of the sport at that level. You can argue that EPO was a game-changer, but to be honest I think it was more of the same thing. They will do what it takes to win (or like me, just to hang on to the pack). I still find things to admire about the pros, and I hope that the UCI is at least keeping the doping to a level where they're not dropping like flies like in the '90s and first part of the century.

Oh well, I'm just rambling here. I'm going to push away from the computer and go for a nice, long ride. My preparation for next year has already begun...


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Considering polls show 5%-7% of high school athletes using PED's...it's not really a big surprise is it? I knew a kid that was 12 and on roids (supplied by his father who was a doctor).

It's also fairly well known that at any given masters race a good 1/2 the field is using one form of PED or another...many times prescribed by their doctor.

When people actually think that the pro field is clean...even part of it...I have to laugh. From the basic levels of the domestic pro's to the top levels of the elite pro's they are using PED's of one form or another. It's just a given to stay competitive with others and when it's what you make your living doing...you either use PED's or you find another way to make money.

This isn't rocket science...it's just reality and it's not just cycling. Look at any pro level sport: Golf, Tennis, Hockey, Football, Baseball, Soccer, etc. and you will find pretty much every player using some form of PED or another. What they are using may work better or worse than others...but they are using something to stay on the field and make money doing something they both love and are very good at.


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## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

Go to USADA and see how few get caught. Lots of THC 3 month bans, I see the US track and field coach is guilty--what about the runners? Then you see a Ping Pong positive. Perhaps the list is only their positives. After my rant I talked to another local Cat 1 and he just stated that locally it's the guys who are pretty good, and then bang, they ride like they are playing with the rest. Equally I'm amazed at a few of the locals who are known potheads. Back in my highschool days I puffed a few, and the last thing I'd want to do is go out and TT. I can't imagine what it possibly coud do for performance. Jeez, to think of being beat by someone who just smoked a bowl.

I would like to add I'm a known fairly fast local master, and I'm 100% clean. I imagine I would climb in the doping boat if my job were on the line. So I don't hate anyone or think of myself as better, just sad. Well as the movie that started me in this lifestyle pointed out, "Everyone cheats". Guess I'll stay on the high road and know I did it the right way.


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

Wookiebiker, I'm a high school teacher. I can tell you that its far more than 5-7% of high school athletes using drugs, at least in the strength sports like football and wrestling, and even perhaps some girl's sports like softball. I work out at the gym favored by one of my school's rivals athletes. I hear them all the time talking about what they're taking, what kind of a boost they're getting, and how much it costs.* I should point out that two years ago, this rival school's starting offensive line was larger than USC's according to their own press guide.* Yes, you heard that right. They're also from an extremely affluent area and can afford PEDs. I mentioned this to my school's former football coach (fired in part because he couldn't beat schools like this), and he just shook his head. He knows all about it, but barring a decision by our school district's leadership to actually dope test our athletes, nothing will change. He actually would like that to happen, but not only is there no money for widespread PED testing, no one wants to deal with the fallout when all of the positive test results become known. 

Its extremely disheartening. Our coaches love working with kids, and I can vouch for their overall disapproval of PEDs. However, the kids want to take them for better abs and biceps (they'll get the girls), to win, but especially to get that athletic scholarship. The parents are also to blame. Many know that their kids are doping, and some help, based upon what I've heard them say in the gym. One dad is a doctor, from what I've overheard, and it wouldn't surprise me if that is his kid's PED funnel. 

Way to take care of our kids...


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## ArkRider (Jul 27, 2007)

aptivaboy said:


> Many know that their kids are doping, and some help, based upon what I've heard them say in the gym. One dad is a doctor, from what I've overheard, and it wouldn't surprise me if that is his kid's PED funnel.


While I can't say that I KNOW any parents who do, there are many whom I wouldn't be surprised if they told their kids to take PEDs -- rationalizing that it will help them get into a good school, get into the pro league after college, etc. Not to mention living vicariously through your offspring.


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

I think you've got it right - they are living vicariously through their kids, the dads in particular. One guy a week ago was telling his son how he was going to bulk him up to knock the other kids around in soccer. The exact quote was, "You'll knock the other guy off of the ball. You''ll' get that red card, and it will be worth it." 

I'm always amazed at how open it all is. In events or venues with no drug testing, why be shy about it?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

I know we laugh at a couple local/regional Masters widely held to be on the juice. Yay- you beat me by cheating- enjoy your shorter lifespan. Seeing USA Cycling barely tests any elite Masters, the level of cheating at the top is basically unknown. Same for triathlon- the level of dopers there (even less testing and more money) is probably staggering at the top end.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Wookiebiker said:


> ...It's also fairly well known that at any given masters race a good 1/2 the field is using one form of PED or another...many times prescribed by their doctor.


WHAT?! Dammit... that is depressing to hear, since I'm about to move up to Masters (from Novice). 
Mebbe I need to look into a home blood-bagging kit or something? 
(No, not really)



Wookiebiker said:


> When people actually think that the pro field is clean...even part of it...I have to laugh. From the basic levels of the domestic pro's to the top levels of the elite pro's they are using PED's of one form or another. It's just a given to stay competitive with others and when it's what you make your living doing...you either use PED's or you find another way to make money.


Poo. I guess I've just been naive to think/hope that only some percentage were dirty. I guess some methods are "cleaner" than others? Or "less dirty" perhaps...


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

I can't relate at all to the OP, but my 2 cents:

I never really regarded Greg LeMond was a nutjob or sour person. I'm well aware/consider him to be very bold in his accusations - and notably making off calculations on AC - but I always figured if I was in that same moment he'd (as well as Hinault and Fignon) describe...

...working his butt off to find previous (lesser) rivals close the performance gap in just a season and sometimes perform (impossibly) better than him, a defending Tour winner...

I'd be fixated on that issue forever - "scared" if you would call it so. There's a big difference between observing who says what/acts, and seeing facing first-hand. Never experienced the latter, but can only imagine how much more it sticks, and see why some people are so inclined to jumping on any lead they've got on a doper.


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## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

Lemond is another example. We ***** about all the dopers, he backs up the doping claims, and then we bash Lemond as some kind of nutjob. Patrick Sinkewitz, Rodriguez and Landis come to mind. I love how Landis lied to cover up his doping (expected). Now he comes clean and is a vindictive loonatic because he "lied" before. Give me a break. All these guys are telling the truth, get over it.
I would suspect that many, (Levi, Basso, Vino, etc) those who seemed to be Lance's next rivals and American hopefulls, riding fantastic, are now fairly clean. You can tell because they suck now. Where is Millar, Zabriske and if Hincapie. Sure they are still good, but not like before. Of course Micro-dosing will do that as well.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

*Vino 4 Ever!*



thighmaster said:


> I would suspect that many, (Levi, Basso, *Vino*, etc) those who seemed to be Lance's next rivals and American hopefulls, riding fantastic, are now fairly clean. *You can tell because they suck now. *


Vino is as old as Lance and totally outdid him at this year's Tour. He actually gave a lot of younger riders a run for their money, and won LBL.










Oh, and Basso's had quite the successful comeback at the Giro.


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

I'll tell you the thing that worries me, and I'm a Lance fan. When Greg started making apparently outlandish claims against Floyd Landis, everyone thought he was a nutcase. His on the stand testimony about child abuse only made him appear more bonkers, in the eyes of many. I mean, really - relevance? I was a Greg fan back in the day, and even I started thinking him slightly unstable. 

But, do you know what? Greg was right. That is what terrifies me, here. Greg was right before with his claims. What if he's right, now? I hope he isn't, but I am worried.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

thighmaster said:


> Lemond is another example.


Of a doper, yes. When Lemond and the Badger come clean (they are the last holdouts of that generation) maybe they be taken seriously in this regard.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Ventruck said:


> Vino is as old as Lance and totally outdid him at this year's Tour. He actually gave a lot of younger riders a run for their money, and won LBL


Better living through Doping, must be nice to control your country's cycling association.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Better living through Doping, must be nice to control your country's cycling association.


I think Thomas Weisel said that too.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

One of the best threads on RBR, ever... Wish I could contribute but I'm still learning about cycling and its history in general.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Wookiebiker said:


> It's also fairly well known that at any given masters race a good 1/2 the field is using one form of PED or another...many times prescribed by their doctor.


_Citation needed._


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

SilasCL said:


> I think Thomas Weisel said that too.


But Vino's living the dream though. . . Be real curious to see how many post-Conti invites Astana gets now.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

thighmaster said:


> I've followed this sport for 3 decades now and I just woke up to what this sport has become, or always was..


On the other hand: MLB, NFL, EPL are/were all loaded with dopers and all are still extremely poplar. Doping IMHO is wrong, but I still love racing and watching racing. Just like I like watching the NFL and EPL ect despited knowing many players are getting "help".


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Only 5-7% of HS athletes are doped???? I don't know where they got that number but it's astoundingly low. Apparently they're more than a little reluctant to confess in a survey, regardless of any assurances of privacy and confidentiality.

Since I spend a lot of time in doctor's offices I've had the immense pleasure of hearing a number of parents taking their girls into the endocrinologist to get HGH simply so they would be better at volleyball or basketball. Very appalling what parents will do to their kids to cure some [often mental] shortcoming of their own.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> On the other hand: MLB, NFL, EPL are/were all loaded with dopers and all are still extremely poplar. Doping IMHO is wrong, but I still love racing and watching racing. Just like I like watching the NFL and EPL ect despited knowing many players are getting "help".



Some members seem to think what you say is perfectly OK. I enjoy all of the mentioned sports too....I would just appreciate what the athletes are doing a bit more IF I KNEW that there were no such thing as PEDs.... wishful thinking... I know..

I am certainly not going to boycott any of the sports mentioned based on PEDs being involved here and there..


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

terzo rene said:


> Only 5-7% of HS athletes are doped???? I don't know where they got that number but it's astoundingly low. Apparently they're more than a little reluctant to confess in a survey, regardless of any assurances of privacy and confidentiality.
> 
> Since I spend a lot of time in doctor's offices I've had the immense pleasure of hearing a number of parents taking their girls into the endocrinologist to get HGH simply so they would be better at volleyball or basketball. Very appalling what parents will do to their kids to cure some [often mental] shortcoming of their own.


Well...the 5% - 7% is from an old study I read, probably close to 8-10 years old...so the numbers could be a lot different today especially with the amount of money available to athletes now (and growing yearly).

However, I would prefer to keep it a bit conservative at this point. I need to do a search for some more recent information to see what the latest studies show...I know it's crazy at this point all things considered.

*EDIT:*

From this article: Steroid abuse in todays society

I pasted the information on the School Aged Children using Steroids. The numbers are low, but in line with what I was quoting. Today, they could be much higher with the use of HGH and less ability to detect it along with fewer overall side effects than 'roids.

School-Age Children

The "Monitoring the Future" study conducted in 2002 determined that since 1991 there has been a significant increase of steroid use by school age children. This annual study, supported by the NIDA and conducted by the Institute for Social Research at the University of Michigan, surveys drug use among eighth, tenth, and twelfth graders in the United States. The first year data was collected on younger students was in 1991. Since 1991 there has been a significant increase in reported steroid use by teenagers. For all three grades, the 2002 levels represent a significant increase from 1991. The following chart illustrates the increase of steroid abuse among teenagers who reported using steroids at least once in their lifetime:

Percent of Students Reporting Steroid Use 1991 - 2002

1991: Eighth grade 1.9% Tenth grade 1.8% Twelfth grade 2.1% 
1999: Eighth grade 2.7% Tenth grade 2.7% Twelfth grade 2.9% 
2002: Eighth grade 2.5% Tenth grade 3.5% Twelfth grade 4.0% 

The 2002 survey also indicated additional data related to steroid abuse by school age children:

Percent of Students Reporting Steroid Use in 2002

Student Steroid Use:

Past month use: Eighth grade 0.8% Tenth grade 1.0% Twelfth grade 1.4% 
Past year use: Eighth grade 1.5% Tenth grade 2.2% Twelfth grade 2.5% 
Lifetime use: Eighth grade 2.5%  Tenth grade 3.5% Twelfth 4.0% 

In addition, the 2002 survey also determined how easy it was for school aged children to obtain steroids. *The survey indicated 22% of eighth graders, 33.2% of tenth graders, and 46.1% of twelfth graders surveyed in 2002 reported that steroids were "fairly easy" or "very easy" to obtain.* More than 57% of twelfth graders surveyed in 2002 reported that using steroids was a "great risk." Also, another study indicated that steroids are used predominately by males. The survey determined the annual prevalence rates were two to four times as high among males as among females.

The "Monitoring the Future" study also determined that misuse and abuse of steroids is a major concern among school aged children. Some of their findings are alarming and indicate a need for concern:

•A survey in 1999 determined that 479,000 students nationwide, or 2.9 percent, had used steroids by their senior year of high school. 

•A survey in 2001 determined the percentage of 12th graders who believed that taking these drugs causes "great risk" to health declined from 68 percent to 62 percent. 

The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducts the Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance Study, a survey of high school students across the United States. *A survey conducted in 2001 indicated that 5% of all high school students reported lifetime use of steroid tablets/injections without a doctor’s prescription. The survey also indicated that 5.8% of ninth graders, 4.9% of tenth graders, 4.3% of eleventh graders, and 4.3% of twelfth graders reported lifetime illegal use of steroids.*

A majority of the studies performed on steroid abuse indicate males are twice as likely to abuse steroids as females.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Wookiebiker said:


> ...A majority of the studies performed on steroid abuse indicate males are twice as likely to abuse steroids as females...


I'm surprised- I would have thought young males were like _50 times_ more likely to abuse steroids!


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Those numbers make more sense given they are based on entire student population rather than just athletes. Too bad it wasn't broken out. I doubt the math club is juicing too much (at least not with steroids).


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

terzo rene said:


> Those numbers make more sense given they are based on entire student population rather than just athletes. Too bad it wasn't broken out. I doubt the math club is juicing too much (at least not with steroids).


Nope, with Adderall and other ADD drugs.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> Nope, with Adderall and other ADD drugs.



add red bull and monster energy. this is now the "orange juice" of yesterday for teens...


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

rydbyk said:


> add red bull and monster energy. this is now the "orange juice" of yesterday for teens...


Have any of you tried Red Bull (or any similar drink) before a bike ride. Does it have the same effect as a few double espressos? I know fellow cyclists that drink that stuff. I personally stay away.


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## Nallen (May 13, 2007)

MG537 said:


> Have any of you tried Red Bull (or any similar drink) before a bike ride. Does it have the same effect as a few double espressos? I know fellow cyclists that drink that stuff. I personally stay away.



Red Bull isn't even close to espresso. 

Espresso is 51.9 mg/oz of caffeine compared to Red Bull's 9.5 mg/oz, it's not even half of a Starbuck's coffee which is 20-22 mg/oz.

Most of the really high caffeine content ones I've never seen. 

I did have a friend snort pure caffeine in college, he said it was like an instant massive headache.

If you're interested in more data:

http://www.energyfiend.com/the-caffeine-database


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## St.Zu (Jun 30, 2010)

It's the 18 cups of sugar in the "energy" drinks along with the caffiene that give the burst of energy...along with the low that you feel after the sugar is burnt off.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

MG537 said:


> Have any of you tried Red Bull (or any similar drink) before a bike ride. Does it have the same effect as a few double espressos? I know fellow cyclists that drink that stuff. I personally stay away.



too much sugar. they do offer it in sugar free option though. it is a diff. kind of "buzz" than espresso....i don't like it anymore.. i never used it before or during a ride so i can't speak to that..


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Nallen said:


> Red Bull isn't even close to espresso.
> 
> Espresso is 51.9 mg/oz of caffeine compared to Red Bull's 9.5 mg/oz, it's not even half of a Starbuck's coffee which is 20-22 mg/oz.
> 
> ...



Whoa....that 5150 drink has 500 mg of caffeine! That sounds dangerous considering that Red Bull has 80 and it makes me feel like I will never sleep again... So...did your buddy graduate with honors or what..haha.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> Nope, with Adderall and other ADD drugs.


Popular on wall street too! But based on what I've read I think actual results are unaffected. End up having better concentration and speed simply to make the same stupid decisions faster and for longer periods at a time.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

terzo rene said:


> Popular on wall street too! But based on what I've read I think actual results are unaffected. End up having better concentration and speed simply to make the same stupid decisions faster and for longer periods at a time.



This is GREAT. Nice one....never looked at it like that, but you just might be correct What's the deal with 5 hour energy...anyone try it? I am going to introduce a "6 hour energy" drink to the market and bankrupt the 5 hour guys... Everybody will totally buy mine because clearly 6 hours of energy is better than just 5. Eventually I will offer a 24 hour version for those who could do without the whole sleep thing...


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## frontierwolf (Jun 21, 2008)

There's already a 6 hour energy out there so I think you probably need to bump yours up a bit to avoid a patent suit.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

frontierwolf said:


> There's already a 6 hour energy out there so I think you probably need to bump yours up a bit to avoid a patent suit.



Fine....6.1 then.


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

I have loved this sport for over 30 years. As a child of Italian immigrants I inherited their cynicism regarding pro bike racers. Biker racers have been doping for over 100 years. They all do it or they get culled form the sport for poor results.

Who cares if they dope? How does it diminish the sport in any way? These 'revelations' will only serve to discard the puritanical johnny come lately fans that I don't really care about.

If people think getting a performance edge somehow diminishes what these guys do (i.e riding across France for a month at an average speed of 46kph including numerous mountain passes) then I feel sorry for them. they have much to learn about the world.


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

_If people think getting a performance edge somehow diminishes what these guys do (i.e riding across France for a month at an average speed of 46kph including numerous mountain passes) then I feel sorry for them. they have much to learn about the world._

So, cheating is alright, then? Seriously, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's what it sounds like you're saying. 

If doping doesn't diminish what doped riders do, then what about clean riders? Doesn't riding in the top pro races clean accentuate what they do? Shouldn't they be recognized and rewarded for riding clean? And, what about those who ride clean yet don't win? Aren't they being penalized for not doping, in a way? There are too many stories about top riders of the '80s suddenly being unable to compete when the EPO-era dawned in full force in the '90s. Guys who once pushed the pace then suddenly struggled to stay in the pack. Didn't the rampant doping of other riders diminish these clean riders' efforts?

I'm not puritannical by any means. However, the rules are clear - no illicit doping. If someone does dope, than they must be punished in some way, as governed by the sport's rules.


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

MG537 said:


> Have any of you tried Red Bull (or any similar drink) before a bike ride. Does it have the same effect as a few double espressos? I know fellow cyclists that drink that stuff. I personally stay away.


Maybe placebo effect - I pour one into a coke slurpee whenever I have long road trips at the and of a day. Keeps me alert, but its probably all in my head.


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

lackluster said:


> You want everyone to be as cynical as you are?


Yes. It will allow you to focus on the awesome spectacle of the race instead of being preoccupied arbitrary judgements of right/wrong.


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

aptivaboy said:


> _If people think getting a performance edge somehow diminishes what these guys do (i.e riding across France for a month at an average speed of 46kph including numerous mountain passes) then I feel sorry for them. they have much to learn about the world._
> 
> So, cheating is alright, then? Seriously, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's what it sounds like you're saying.
> 
> ...


Fignon was one of those guys - he doped too but would not use EPO. Bugno was the same. 

Their complaint was more like, 'all the other guys have better dope than me, no fair.'

Drug policies in cycling have only been enforced recently. Coppi took steroids, opiates and amphetamines. Likewise Anquetiel. Merckx used steroids. So what? 

The US Olympic team had blood doping and ephedrine scandals in 1984. Are we going to take away Alexi Grewal's 1984 Gold Medal?

Just about every champion from every generation has been seriously implicated or admitted to doping. 

So I say drop the witch hunts and just enjoy the racing.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Wookiebiker said:


> It's also fairly well known that at any given masters race a good 1/2 the field is using one form of PED or another...many times prescribed by their doctor.
> 
> When people actually think that the pro field is clean...even part of it...I have to laugh. From the basic levels of the domestic pro's to the top levels of the elite pro's they are using PED's of one form or another. It's just a given to stay competitive with others and when it's what you make your living doing...you either use PED's or you find another way to make money.


FWIW, you are full of sh!t and have no idea what you are talking about. You're losing the respect I had for you.

Cycling is dirty. It's not this dirty.


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

Again, I ask, "What about the clean riders?" Who speaks for them? Your methodology would seem to say, "Its okay, everyone does it, so its alright." I cannot accept that. If the rules are against doping, then riders shouldn't dope. Period. There are rules against cheating. Does your philosophy mean that the so-called "doped bike" should be legal as long as everyone has a chance to illicitly acquire and race one? Again, what about the one guy who chooses to obey the rules? Is he stupid for obeying the rules? 

Also, drug policies have not only been enforced recently. Your own statement proves that - Merckx tested positive on at least two valid occasions, and then the third disputed Giro affair. We can argue over how seriously they were enforced, but they have been. Since 1984, the Olympics have progressively stepped up dope testing, hence the reason the former East German men, er. alleged women now look like more or less normal females. The real issue was the ability of science to test for more modern drugs, especially designer drugs and EPO. To say that athletes weren't tested because the rules weren't enforced, however, is inaccurate. 

Sorry, but I can't "enjoy the racing" when there are cheats out there on the road, claiming to ride clean but who really lying to me. 

Of course, for folks like yourself who are apparently not concerned with doping, there's always this: http://www.hulu.com/watch/4090/saturday-night-live-weekend-update-all-drug-olympics


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> FWIW, you are full of sh!t and have no idea what you are talking about. You're losing the respect I had for you.
> 
> Cycling is dirty. It's not this dirty.



Such is life  

I can only speak from my own experiences and from what I've seen. Having competed at the collegiate level...though smaller regional levels...and seeing/knowing the amount of roids people at that level were using was just flat stupid. 

Realize this is with people that will never have a shot at even making the pro levels of any sport and for the most part are not even playing for scholarships.

Then take into account how many high school athletes are taking PED's....see the study I linked to below...and the numbers are there for you.

All sports are "Dirty" it's just a matter of what people want to believe or not. I choose not to look at things with blinders on. If you want to believe they are clean except for a few at the top...good for you, just don't be surprised when those you thought were clean get popped for using PED's at some point down the road.

As for what PED's they are on...I didn't specify since it can be any number of things...and as I said, most at the masters level are prescribed. Under USAC rules if they are taking something on the banned list and they don't have a TUE they are doping...are they not? Even if prescribed by a doctor.

However, never underestimate the number of people who have the resources to cheat that will. Crap....just the pure number of inhalers I see being used before races cracks me up...there are not that many people racing bikes that have asthma. 

The number is much, much larger than most people are ever willing to admit. Just because you don't believe it or don't want to believe it....doesn't mean it's not happening.

BTW...I could are less if people respect me or my views...they are my views and are based on what I've seen. I'm not posting for popularity, just for discussion :thumbsup:


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

Athletes do not have covenant with us IMO - its with the sponsors who push them for results and encourage them to 'prepare' properly for races. There is a large appetite for watching the races in Europe and most of those fans do not care about PEDs. Racers are moving billboards and the more time they spend at the front the better exposure for their sponsors (camera time).

So these athletes owe us nothing. The spectacle is a by-product of them doing their jobs. Most of them are very careful about answering the 'have you doped' question. 

I don't know why people get so hot about this. 

Also, anon 'internet respect' is the least valuable currency in the universe. Just enjoy the conversation - be thankful that there are another 3-4 people in the world that want to discuss this. Hardly water cooler conversation this...


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