# Steve Hogg: "No matter how hard you ride, there should be no localized quad soreness"



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

*Steve Hogg: "No matter how hard you ride, there should be no localized quad soreness"*

I'm not sure what to think of this. I've certainly experienced plenty of localized soreness in my quads even though my bike is set up with a ton of saddle setback (5.7 cm with 71cm height) relative to my physical measurements (80cm inseam, 49.5cm calf and 57.8 thigh) and my cleats are mounted as far back as they can go with the standard drilling in my shoe soles. My seat tube angle is 73 and my seat mast head set back is 25mm. The saddle is a SM Regal which is as far back as the rails allow.

www.cyclefitcentre.com/pdf final docs/THINGS YOU MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN ABOUT BIKE POSITION_final.pdf


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

rocco said:


> I'm not sure what to think of this. I've certainly experienced plenty of localized soreness in my quads even though my bike is set up with a ton of saddle setback (5.7 cm with 71cm height) relative to my physical measurements (80cm inseam, 49.5cm calf and 57.8 thigh) and my cleats are mounted as far back as they can go with the standard drilling in my shoe soles. My seat tube angle is 73 and my seat master head set back is 25mm. The saddle is a SSM Regal which is as far back as the rails allow.
> 
> www.cyclefitcentre.com/pdf%20final%20docs/THINGS%20YOU%20MAY%20NOT%20HAVE%20KNOWN%20ABOUT%20BIKE%20POSITION_final.pdf


I don't think he's saying that your quads shouldn't hurt, but that no specific portion of your quads should hurt: That they should feel tired as a muscle. Also that your legs and glutes should feel equally tired/sore. 

If you get off the bike and 'feel it' predominantly in the quads, yeah, it's not ideal. Fine that you've burdened your quads, but a shame that you've not adequately recruited the rest of your muscles. It's simply a question of balanced use.

I'll add that it's not a universally held notion, though mostly so.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Agree with danl1's comment, and like to add that perhaps you need to take Steve Hogg's 2006 take on localized quad soreness with a grain of salt. He says that when your foot and seat are in the right place,

_"...the hamstrings and calves will assist the quadriceps in extending the knee."_

Fast forward to 2009, and Steve Hogg says that the calves _do not _ contribute to forward propulsion during seated riding, but merely stabilize a foot that's held in the "wrong" place on the pedal. (Incidentally, from that he suggests not just moving the cleat back a lot, but arch-pedaling—which takes the calves out of the kinematic chain and thus, is supposed to save energy.) Don't get me wrong, Steve Hogg generally knows what he's talking about. But it seems to me that his 2006 piece on localized quad soreness got dated by his own recent writings.

/w


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

wim & dan,

I'm familiar with Hogg's idea about custom mounted cleats under the arches. Beyond my concern that such a setup would kill my leg speed I haven't considered doing all that it would entail to try it. 

My glutes and hams do often feel tired but never sore like my quads after hard rides. This soreness can be somewhat variable between three locations (lower vastus medialis, vastus lateralis and upper vastus intermedius/rectus femorus) depending on the type of efforts I've done. I've also experienced localized soreness along a line down the back of my calves... again depending what kind of effort I've done.

On subsequent recovery rides my quads can be very tender. After a series of 3 harder efforts (2 to 3.5 hours each in duration) it sometimes takes as many as 3 days/recovery rides (about 1.5 hours each) and even a full day off the bike before my quads completely recover.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Only a guess.*

All I can offer is a personal observation and a guess. In many years of cycling, including racing and training for racing, I've had cramps in my calves so bad they made me stop and get off the bike, cramping of a hip flexor muscle (_psoas major_) while turning a high cadence, and screaming out-loud hamstring cramps hours after a race or hard ride. But in all these years, I''ve never experienced any soreness of the quads after a race or hard ride.

I know for a fact that I deliver most of my force to the pedal from slightly behind top-dead-center (with an extremely dropped heel) to only about 3 o'clock on the crank circle (with my foot level at that point). _I believe that this is what spares my quads_. My guess is (and it really is a shot in the dark) that you start to bring force to the pedal at about the same time than I do, but continue that force for much too long, perhaps even bringing (unused) force onto the pedal at bottom dead center.

The attached diagram has been around forever and has some problems, but it is helpful in visualizing which muscles generally do what. Sorry for the hand-waving guess regarding your problem; hopefully others have more specific advice based on a similar predicament.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I get localized soreness in my quads, at least once a year, after a blindingly hard crit. 
(Yes, it really is possible to turn it up to 11)


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Other than a couple of times that I had cramping in my calves when I was a kid I haven't experienced any other cramping while riding. Occasionally my hamstrings cramp AFTER riding hard but never my quads, no matter how sore they are.

I'm generally doubtful of "always" and "never" type statements but I'm starting to get the impression that the frequency and severity of localized soreness I've experience in my quads for as long as I've been riding is actually unusual. 

I can't imagine riding with any more saddle setback than I already do. Could it be about riding too hard too often... the fast twitch vs slow twitch composition of my quads... my pedaling technique isn't as efficient as I thought?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

rocco said:


> I'm generally doubtful of "always" and "never" type statements but I'm starting to get the impression that the frequency and severity of localized soreness I've experience in my quads for as long as I've been riding is actually unusual.


Appreciate your skepticism, but my "never experiencing something" is based on the best of my recollection. It's entirely possible that after a junior crit in the summer of 1957 I had some localized quad soreness, but forgot about it.

As to your impression, I think you might be right that your pin-point localization of your soreness is, in fact, somewhat unusual. With both your saddle setback and cleat placement at what appears to be the rearward extreme, try changing to the traditional setup (5 cm saddle setback for your size, and ball-of-the-foot cleat placement) and see what happens.

/w


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

wim said:


> Appreciate your skepticism, but my "never experiencing something" is based on the best of my recollection. It's entirely possible that after a junior crit in the summer of 1957 I had some localized quad soreness, but forgot about it.
> 
> As to your impression, I think you might be right that your pin-point localization of your soreness is, in fact, somewhat unusual. With both your saddle setback and cleat placement at what appears to be the rearward extreme, try changing to the traditional setup (5 cm saddle setback for your size, and ball-of-the-foot cleat placement) and see what happens.
> 
> /w



To be clear, my comment about "always" and "never" types of statements was directed at what Steve Hogg had said, not you. I believe you've never... or almost never had this type of soreness. 

I used to have more of a ball-of-the-foot cleat placement and it made no difference as far soreness in the quads but I found I gained power output when I positioned my cleats further back. I've also tried less setback but it never felt right... I just found that my butt would move further back than where it ought to be in relationship to the saddle.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Dunno—difficult to suggest much more on the internet without just more guessing. In very general terms, your quads just seem to do all the work, with some of the other muscles not doing what they could to help—sort of like some breaks in a race.  Why that would be, I don't know. Keep in mind that some muscles can be trained to turn on and off at will, others will change their work pattern only with a position change.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

Your saddle setback is not excsssive or unusual. With a 73cm saddle height, mine's 6-7cm behind the pedal spindle. Saddle nose setback does not tell the whole story either. Depending on the saddle width and your sitbone width, you could be sitting further forward that you think. Also, those with longer torsos may need even more setback to get balanced over the saddle. My height to inseam ratio is 169cm/83cm, so I have a very short torso. One of the tests for sufficient setback is to be able to lower the torso angle and "hover" your hands above the drop section of the bars, with the crankarms horizontal.

Just moving the saddle back does not automatically recruit the glutes. It takes a mental effort to relax the quads and use the glutes, particularly if you've been riding for a long time with the mental idea that the quads are the main muscles driving the bike.

I do not believe in dropping the heel. It usually slows and disrupts a smooth cadence. Using most common formulas for saddle height, if the heel was dropped, the leg would go into full extension at the bottom of the stroke. You don't see that pedaling action to be common among the pro riders. It usually requires about a 3cm rise of the heel to create the recommended 30 degree bend in the leg at the bottom of the stroke. 

To start using the glutes more, practice while climbing, with a lower cadence in the 75-85 range.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

C-40 said:


> I do not believe in dropping the heel. It usually slows and disrupts a smooth cadence Using most common formulas for saddle height, if the heel was dropped, the leg would go into full extension at the bottom of the stroke. You don't see that pedaling action to be common among the pro riders. It usually requires about a 3cm rise of the heel to create the recommended 30 degree bend in the leg at the bottom of the stroke.


Works for me, but that's not a ringing endorsement. And to confirm your math: I've got an 84 cm inseam, but my saddle is at a low 72 cm. That allows me to drop my heel a lot through top dead center (some would say "forces me") and still have my 35-degree leg bend with my foot slightly up from the horizontal at bottom dead center. Tried higher saddles (up to 75 cm): no go for me.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

C-40 said:


> Your saddle setback is not excsssive or unusual. With a 73cm saddle height, mine's 6-7cm behind the pedal spindle. Saddle nose setback does not tell the whole story either. Depending on the saddle width and your sitbone width, you could be sitting further forward that you think. Also, those with longer torsos may need even more setback to get balanced over the saddle. My height to inseam ratio is 169cm/83cm, so I have a very short torso. One of the tests for sufficient setback is to be able to lower the torso angle and "hover" your hands above the drop section of the bars, with the crankarms horizontal.
> 
> Just moving the saddle back does not automatically recruit the glutes. It takes a mental effort to relax the quads and use the glutes, particularly if you've been riding for a long time with the mental idea that the quads are the main muscles driving the bike.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if I correctly understand the "hover" test while in the drop position without using hands. Is it a matter of being able to do it at all (I can) or being able to do it easily/with little effort (I can't)? Should it matter how hard one pedals while doing this test?

I don't believe in focusing effort on dropping my heal either. I believe in and practice maintaining an even, round and smooth stroke. There are almost no true flat roads here and climb 8 to 16%+ grades regularly. I know how to use my glutes and hamstrings and I have no doubt that I do but apparently not enough.

I suppose I need to open up my mind to moving further back. I can replace my classic SSM Regal saddle with a new/modern Regal E (with longer rails) then reassess whether I need to adjust my reach back also.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*

When doing the hover test, you don't have to pedal. You can put the bike in a trainer and keep the crankarms stationary, but horizontal.

One of the fitter/coaches at the Serotta website says if you have to arch your back or work very hard to keep from falling over, then you're not back far enough. I can sit in that position and put my nose down to the stem without any undue strain and I'm using an 11cm drop.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

C-40 said:


> When doing the hover test, you don't have to pedal. You can put the bike in a trainer and keep the crankarms stationary, but horizontal.
> 
> One of the fitter/coaches at the Serotta website says if you have to arch your back or work very hard to keep from falling over, then you're not back far enough. I can sit in that position and put my nose down to the stem without any undue strain and I'm using an 11cm drop.


Well then based on your testimonial I'm convinced that I need more setback because there's no way I can do that with my setup now. That helps put it in better perspective.

Hopefully the additional 10mm rail length on the Regal E will be enough. It seems like I'll need to replace my 130mm stem with a 120mm version as well.

Thank you.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

C-40 said:


> When doing the hover test, you don't have to pedal. You can put the bike in a trainer and keep the crankarms stationary, but horizontal


Correct, but you do have to put some pressure onto the pedals for the hover test to mean anything. On a trainer and not pedaling, you counter the downward pressure of the forward leg with the rearward leg. On the road, you can do the same thing coasting, or pedal in a relatively large gear at a low cadence. No one passes the hover test with little or no pressure on the pedals.

/w


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

C-40 said:


> Your saddle setback is not excsssive or unusual. With a 73cm saddle height, mine's 6-7cm behind the pedal spindle. Saddle nose setback does not tell the whole story either. Depending on the saddle width and your sitbone width, you could be sitting further forward that you think. Also, those with longer torsos may need even more setback to get balanced over the saddle. My height to inseam ratio is 169cm/83cm, so I have a very short torso. One of the tests for sufficient setback is to be able to lower the torso angle and "hover" your hands above the drop section of the bars, with the crankarms horizontal.
> 
> Just moving the saddle back does not automatically recruit the glutes. It takes a mental effort to relax the quads and use the glutes, particularly if you've been riding for a long time with the mental idea that the quads are the main muscles driving the bike.
> 
> ...



Eureka! 

I increased my setback to 7.7cm (from 6.7 - Note: 5.7cm was a typo error) and replaced my 13cm stem with a 12cm one. 

Now I can ride hands free in a full tuck and I'm able to recruit my glutes, hamstring and calves much more while reducing the load on my quads and patellar tendons significantly. Power through the stroke is more balanced (getting through the dead spot better) I feel have more power in general. After hard rides I have no more localized quad pain and comparatively more evenly distributed general tiredness throughout my legs which goes away by the next morning. 

For the time being my glutes, hamstrings and calves feel a bit more tired than my thighs but I suspect this improve over the course of the next few weeks when I've put more hours in riding in this new position. I'm optimistic about being able to reap some nice gains in speed and power ultimately.

Thanks you to C-40 and Wim for your valuable input which spurred me onto trying this adjustment.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

interesting diagram wim. Certainly some seem a little misplaced but i think it's important to remember that, keeping with the clock analogy, you would "feel" you are activating the muscles about 2 hours (or 10 minutes if you use the minute hand ;-) before you want them to actually do something.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

So... this recent (theoretical) little sharp twinge in my right inner quad after long climbing or a few hours in the saddle, that results in an ache and tenderness for a couple days is likely a fit issue despite no change in set-up and therefore I need to....?


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Dajianshan said:


> So... this recent (theoretical) little sharp twinge in my right inner quad after long climbing or a few hours in the saddle, ...


If you mean the inner thigh, that's a different muscle group, the "adductors" I believe.
I occasionally get 'tightness' and momentary, painful, involuntary contractions (spasms) on my right adductors.
For me, It correlates to overuse -- too much increase in mileage or intensity, over too short a time period (day to day, or week to week).


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Front-top-inside of the knee. The inner-most head of the quad. It starts with a sharp sting or two. Then after a few severe surprise stings it becomes a lasting ache. The ache and weakness goes away after a day or two. It makes cycling on it a game of pain management.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Dajianshan said:


> Front-top-inside of the knee. The inner-most head of the quad.



Vastus medialis?


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

On a side note, I erred when I posted this subject in "Components, Wrenching" which brings to mind 3 questions.

1. Who is the moderator for this section?

2. Can the mod please move this thread over to "General Cycling Discussion" or "Racing, Training, Nutrition, Triathlons" if it's not too much trouble?

3. Why not a have "Bike Fit & Mechanics" section that replaces "Electric Assist Bicycles" (Seriously... Electric Assist Bicycles?)


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I can't ever remember having a specific sore spot on my legs after riding. In fact, I rarely even experience soreness. Extreme tiredness, burning sometimes from lactic acid is common for me. If I'm sitting around reading the paper and I poke my quads with a finger, they feel a little sore.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

That might be it right there. Thanks!!!


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Mr. Versatile said:


> I can't ever remember having a specific sore spot on my legs after riding. In fact, I rarely even experience soreness. Extreme tiredness, burning sometimes from lactic acid is common for me. If I'm sitting around reading the paper and I poke my quads with a finger, they feel a little sore.


Then the problem is clear - you need to clip your fingernails.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

danl1 said:


> Then the problem is clear - you need to clip your fingernails.


*HAH!* You're the one who told me to use the ice pick. See if I ever listen to you again!


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