# Trek haters...?



## frisbie17 (Jan 17, 2012)

Lot of people on here really do not like Trek Bikes. Just wondering why? Post intelligent comments please with facts about the bikes. Not looking for "Because they suck comments". 

Thanks


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

frisbie17 said:


> Not looking for "Because they suck comments".
> 
> Thanks


Because they suck?

Honestly, you're asking for a a bunch of extra information along with a highly subjective opinion in an arena where the highly subjective opinion is the only thing that matters. You're setting yourself up for disappointment


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

This could be good - may need to get the popper ready.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

ibericb said:


> This could be good - may need to get the popper ready.


I already popped my corn. Extra butter.


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## frisbie17 (Jan 17, 2012)

You are probably right. Just curious why so many people do not like them. I have one and love it.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I don't hate them. I just don't want one.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

I have a trek, trying to sell it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Love my Domane.

Not sure how much of that "hate" is about the bikes, as opposed to the company.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

I own a Madone, but hate Trek.

Yes, I'm a complicated person


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I had one, I gave it away.


WAIT... I had two, I gave both of them away.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Had 2 including 1 kids bike and bought 2 more this month - including a 1.2 pilot for my 10 year old son - I think it's a Ford / Chevy thing, just with bike brands. Some folks want only European cars, some want domestic - to each their own. I have no brand loyalty for bikes, I buy what I see as a good deal that fits me and will do what I want it to do.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

1. because they acquire companies and then ruin them. 2, because most of their early technology was "borrowed" 3. because their early frames sucked, 4. LA. 5. Because they started the trend of suing everyone who used T R E or K in their company's name....


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I bought 2... an old MTB and my wifes 2013 madone. Would I get another for myself... probably not, but they are fine bikes.

I've ridden my wifes bike a number of times and it's a top notch ride. (madone 6 with full 9070 and bontrager Aeolus D3)


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## crowaan (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm sure they make good bikes. They get reviewed well. But my shop competes against a Trek Store so I have to root against them. Plus I don't like how they went from a small company to one of the biggest by tying their stock to a certain Lance Armstrong. Sure, they have cut ties now but they still profited from his cheating.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Retro Grouch said:


> I own a Madone, but hate Trek.
> 
> Yes, I'm a complicated person



Get some SH decals made to cover the T in Trek everywhere in the frame??


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

For the most parts their bikes are fine (though one friend of mine has had to have a disproportionate number of Treks warrantied, though they always took care of it). You always hear the dissenters loudest, so you end up reading more comments by those who don't like them.
Mainly the haters dont like them because they are the largest brand in the US. Same ones who don't like shimano. They think anything popular cannot be good. (Makes little sense, but it is what it is.)


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Oxtox said:


> I don't hate them. I just don't want one.


This.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

My 2012 Madone is a rolling billboard. It has well over 15 Trek or Bontrager logos on it.... great bike.

When looking for a replacement I rode Cannondale. Cervelo, Specialized and a few others only to find the Emonda was the best fit and ride quality. So my 2015 Emonda SLR is a Project One and has no easily visible logos.

So I can have my cake and eat it too.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

I never liked Trek in college as a knob head. I had a Specialized M2 like Ned O. but my first road bike was a Trek Madone. It was a good bike but I never felt the love. I think they make great bikes but always give a Trek rider a second look and watch them for bike handling skills because a lot of newbies buy Treks in my area. There are exceptions but its seems to me that they are either very strong and skilled riders or all over the road......and then there is the whole Trek company sucks stuff.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I do not like their bottom bracket standard. I think it sucks, it's a problem for our shop all the time (unless you see it as a positive). I don't like any press-fit bottom bracket standards to be honest.

I think the quality of their bikes is poor. I recently was working on one of the made in Wisconsin or whatever top end Madone frames. It is by far the cheapest looking "high end" carbon frame I've ever touched. The graphics on it are not painted on, they're not water transferred on, they're cheap stickers. Not even laser cut vinyl stickers either, the old school type that have the clear borders around everything, the really cheap kind. The frame looks like it came from Wal-Mart, I would be disgusted if that was my company's top end offering.

What happened to the Madone anyway? I guess they decided it sucked and it wasn't really worth making anymore. 

So I think their bikes are average at best. The company though has some strong points. The project one idea is a strong point. The Trek University idea is a strong point. And the H1 and H2 headtube/geometry thing is a strong point.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> I think the quality of their bikes is poor. I recently was working on one of the made in Wisconsin or whatever top end Madone frames. It is by far the cheapest looking "high end" carbon frame I've ever touched. The graphics on it are not painted on, they're not water transferred on, they're cheap stickers. Not even laser cut vinyl stickers either, the old school type that have the clear borders around everything, the really cheap kind. The frame looks like it came from Wal-Mart, I would be disgusted if that was my company's top end offering.
> 
> What happened to the Madone anyway? I guess they decided it sucked and it wasn't really worth making anymore.


Odd because the graphics on my 2012 Madone 4.6c are all under the clear coat. And since they are totally flat, i have to assume they are painted on.

The graphics on my 2015 Emonda SLR are most definitely painted and the frame is a very high quality.

In 2013 the Madone morphed into a aero bike and the Emonda took its place. I think Trek felt they had too many options so they only offer the top of the line Madone 7 and a entry level Madone 2. The Emonda comes in S (300 carbon), SL (500 carbon) and SLR (700 carbon).

People hate Trek because it's not as exclusive at Cervelo, Guru, BMC and others. Trek sells everything from $16,000 bikes to $100 kids bikes.. .so does Specialized. I guess people feel that Trek is not "high end" enough for them.

But then Volkswagen also owns Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Porsche.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

I'll echo what others have said...I just don't want one. Not that they are bad bikes, I'm sure they are fine. But they fall into the same catagory as Giant and Specialized, they make lots of bikes, they are popular (no bad things) and they make bikes from cheap to spendy and everywhere inbetween...and they suffer from roof-rack-itis, or in these parts Subaru-roof-rack-itis.

Basically for me, if I needed a new bike for soem reason Today, then a Trek would fit the bill, but if I could wait for somethjing I wanted to turn up, then it wouldn't be a Trek.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

glenn said:


> Odd because the graphics on my 2012 Madone 4.6c are all under the clear coat. And since they are totally flat, i have to assume they are painted on.
> 
> The graphics on my 2015 Emonda SLR are most definitely painted and the frame is a very high quality.
> 
> ...


High end has nothing to do with it in my regard. They are too "vanilla", as are Specialized, Cervello and even Colnago, amongst others. They have all become "go to" brands, and I prefer to ride something a bit out of the ordinary. 

My bikes are nice bikes, not what most would consider "high end", but bikes that are not what everyone else is riding.

I look at it like this; A Trek is like a Schwinn, but I'd rather ride a Waterford.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

velodog said:


> I look at it like this; A Trek is like a Schwinn, but I'd rather ride a Waterford.



My only Schwinn is a 1972 Chrome Paramount, made is Wisconsin BTW. In fact the earliest of the Waterford connection I believe, 

I know what you meant though...


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I do not hate Treks. I just do not want to buy one.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

glenn said:


> Odd because the graphics on my 2012 Madone 4.6c are all under the clear coat. And since they are totally flat, i have to assume they are painted on.
> 
> The graphics on my 2015 Emonda SLR are most definitely painted and the frame is a very high quality.
> 
> ...


really doubt Trek paints any graphics on the Emonda. Painting graphics is too costly and adds a lot of grams. They either use decals (for the cheaper models) or print the graphics on (similar to using an inkjet printer).


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

They bought and destroyed 3 of the first brands of bikes I owned. 

Fischer - bought and killed. 
Klein - bought and killed. 
Bontrager - bought and neutered.

Honestly, I don't really care. If someone likes the bike go to it. I would not rule out riding one. I have never owned a trek brand - at the time trek owned it.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Trek suffers from being everywhere. Decent (some are even excellent) frames and all, but you can't swing a dead cat without hitting one. They crossed the line from popular to 'everybody has one', and who wants to ride what everybody else rides?

Looked hard at Trek (GF) when I was looking to buy my MTB. Tried out a couple and as a bike, I couldn't complain. But I bought a Motobecane instead. 3 years later, I still like my Moto, but the Treks are all 'meh' to me.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

Sounds like a bunch of snobs.

If in a blind side by side test you pick a bike only to find it's made by Trek and won't buy it because its made by Trek is snobbery. 

BTW, Subaru makes a great vehicle. The reason so many dive them is because they are a great vehicle. 

Being different to be different is foolish.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

Being different because another brand has equal quality is not snobbery or foolish. There are many brands because people like choice enough to support the economy of many brands.


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## PMC (Jan 29, 2004)

Had a 5500 back in 03 and was one of the worst riding road bikes I've ever owned. I actually stayed away from carbon for years because of that bike.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

jfaas said:


> Being different because another brand has equal quality is not snobbery or foolish. There are many brands because people like choice enough to support the economy of many brands.


So you're making a political statement. I guess you also won't buy Apple products or shop at Walmart.

Good for you.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

glenn said:


> So you're making a political statement. I guess you also won't by Apple products or shop at Walmart.
> 
> Good for you.


I do shop at Walmart, and yes I prefer not to buy Apple. I have an iPad because it is a superior product. Although I thought that apple would equate to the alternative brand in this debate.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

It's getting interesting. Since it's early, maybe corn flakes instead of popcorn.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

ibericb said:


> It's getting interesting. Since it's early, maybe corn flakes instead of popcorn.


Seems I got into the fray, I still had leftover popcorn this morning.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm seriously considering Trek in my plan to upgrade partly because everyone hates them. 

And because I can get an Ultegra groupset compared to 105 in competing brands at the same price point, and because the Race Series wheels are pretty light aluminum wheels at reasonable prices and get pretty solid reviews and they are tube/tubeless which is nice. So, you are really talking about the frame. Put it on a scale. Right? Unless it can't be set up to feel perfect to the rider is there a significant difference a regular Joe rider is going to notice beyond weight? (And yes, the pressfit BB MSMN raised is one to be paying attention to, thank you for the shout out on that)


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> I'm seriously considering Trek in my plan to upgrade partly because everyone hates them.
> 
> And because I can get an Ultegra groupset compared to 105 in competing brands at the same price point, and because the Race Series wheels are pretty light aluminum wheels at reasonable prices and get pretty solid reviews and they are tube/tubeless which is nice. So, you are really talking about the frame. Put it on a scale. Right? Unless it can't be set up to feel perfect to the rider is there a significant difference a regular Joe rider is going to notice beyond weight? (And yes, the pressfit BB MSMN raised is one to be paying attention to, thank you for the shout out on that)


If the trek is best for you, then get it. Don't pay attention to what others say. This is a thread filled with opinions. I have owned nearly every brand that was under the trek umbrella: Jazz, Klein, Gary Fisher, Trek, Lemond. Only the Jazz was questionable.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

jfaas said:


> I do shop at Walmart, and yes I prefer not to buy Apple. I have an iPad because it is a superior product. Although I thought that apple would equate to the alternative brand in this debate.


So you'll shop at Walmart, a company that if you work full time you can earn $18,000 with no benefits, but they cut you off at 30 hours so your considered part time. They also bully manufacturers to meet their price point or they won't carry their products.

And you won't buy Apple for their practices from their Chinese factories but you do own a ipad. Have you ever used a android tablet? If you have then you would know the ipad is far from superior.

I think most people hate Trek because it's "kewl".


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

glenn said:


> So you'll shop at Walmart, a company that if you work full time you can earn $18,000 with no benefits, but they cut you off at 30 hours so your considered part time. They also bully manufacturers to meet their price point or they won't carry their products.
> 
> And you won't buy Apple for their practices from their Chinese factories but you do own a ipad. Have you ever used a android tablet? If you have then you would know the ipad is far from superior.
> 
> I think most people hate Trek because it's "kewl".


I think you're right about trek being kewl. I shop at Walmart because my choices are limited, I don't like shopping Walmart. The iPad seemed better, on paper.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

glenn said:


> Sounds like a bunch of snobs.
> 
> If in a blind side by side test you pick a bike only to find it's made by Trek and won't buy it because its made by Trek is snobbery.
> 
> ...


There's nothing foolish about being different because you want something else.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

I bought my Trek because:

1. I wanted to support the small, local family owned, 100+ year old bike shop.
2. The bike has everything I wanted at a price I could afford. 
3. It was a new model and no other had all the features/specs.
4. I don't care what anyone else thinks.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you're right it's cool to be a Trek hater. Trek is the official bike of Freds everywhere. The only good riders that have them are sponsored by them and ride because otherwise they would get sued. When a pro on a Trek pulls up to the start line, they always say something like "sorry about bringing a Trek to the race. I just don't want to get sued for racing a bike I actually like." When Armstrong - the guy on whose back Trek rose to fame by defrauding the American public - showed up last year to a ride by me he was on a Parlee. We all had a good laugh about that - including Armstrong....



glenn said:


> So you'll shop at Walmart, a company that if you work full time you can earn $18,000 with no benefits, but they cut you off at 30 hours so your considered part time. They also bully manufacturers to meet their price point or they won't carry their products.
> 
> And you won't buy Apple for their practices from their Chinese factories but you do own a ipad. Have you ever used a android tablet? If you have then you would know the ipad is far from superior.
> 
> I think most people hate Trek because it's "kewl".


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

jfaas said:


> Seems I got into the fray, I still had leftover popcorn this morning.


Now it's getting interesting. Looks like a good time to fire up the popper. Still early, so I'll pass on the butter. Who's up for some Orville Redenbacher?


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Randy99CL said:


> I bought my Trek because:
> 
> 1. I wanted to support the small, local family owned, 100+ year old bike shop.
> 2. The bike has everything I wanted at a price I could afford.
> ...



All good reasons to pick out a bike for you.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

Pictures of when Trek still had a soul



















As with all companies that grow, it's easy to forget the true value of why it started in the first place.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I always just buy a frame and build it up using new and used components. The last time I bought a complete bike was in the early 70's when I bought a Schwinn Letour. My last frame purchased was 2 years ago and I bought a Lighthouse. In April I am going for a ride with some of the guys in Santa Cruz from the 70's and we will end up at the Rock Lobster custom frame shop. He has a tig welded road bike that is economical and probably is popular in Santa Cruz. He is a one man shop the same as Lighthouse bikes. I guess my point is I would just buy a bike like that. Locally made and built they way I would want my bike to be. 

As far as big companies making production frames using outsourcing as their way of making big dollars it's fine with me but I do not want one. So I would not be interested in Trek or any of the big name bikes. If I could ride uphill faster the Contador then I would just ride on whatever they told me to. Then I would zoom up the hill and win and tell everyone for the rest of my life that I do not do drugs. However I cannot zoom particularly fast so I will just ride a bike that I like and keep my job in the Surgery Dept at our local Hosp.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

glenn said:


> Sounds like a bunch of snobs.
> 
> If in a blind side by side test you pick a bike only to find it's made by Trek and won't buy it because its made by Trek is snobbery.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your butt hurt. . It's just a bike, relax.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

glenn said:


> So you'll shop at Walmart, a company that if you work full time you can earn $18,000 with no benefits, but they cut you off at 30 hours so your considered part time. They also bully manufacturers to meet their price point or they won't carry their products.
> 
> And you won't buy Apple for their practices from their Chinese factories but you do own a ipad. Have you ever used a android tablet? If you have then you would know the ipad is far from superior.
> 
> I think most people hate Trek because it's "kewl".


Just so you know, I work at Wal-Mart (and not as management). Made over $20K last year averaged 39.7 hours a week and get full medical benefits including vision and dental. Do they bully manufacturers? No more so than Lowes, Sears, or Kroegers (all of which have been accused of the same business practices). Business is business, and politics are politics. I shopped Wal-Mart before working there because they had more selection and lower prices than K-Mart and Target. Not about cool, just good money management. 

I don't buy Apple because it's over priced. Yeah Apple is more stable than just about everything Windows based, but I could buy 4 of my current smart phone for the cost of 1 IPhone, and nobody want to steal mine. My mp3 player cost 1/8 the cost of IPod classic (at the time I bought it) and is still supported (Phillips) where as the IPod classic went bye-bye. IPad is a superior product, but I have a laptop, so I don't need one at all. Not about cool, just good money management.

Trek does make good bikes, but so does the other 35+ (low ball estimate) bike manufacturers and for the same money, sometimes less. If performance, upkeep, and fit are equivocal, why not buy something different?


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## Carpbum (Feb 10, 2015)

According to Waterford's own website, during that period 15 Paramounts a week were being made in the Chicago plant, while 10 a week were being "outsourced" from Pioneer Manufacturing in Racine. All the frames went to Chicago where serial numbers were applied and there is no way to tell (by the serial #) where the frame was made. 

I have two Paramount frames from that era, which I always assumed were from Chicago. Is there another distinct characteristic I can be looking for, i.e. in the brazing or lug work? 



robt57 said:


> My only Schwinn is a 1972 Chrome Paramount, made is Wisconsin BTW. In fact the earliest of the Waterford connection I believe,
> 
> I know what you meant though...


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

velodog said:


> There's nothing foolish about being different because you want something else.


Then you should buy one of these. You'll be the only one with one.











Keoki said:


> Sounds like your butt hurt. . It's just a bike, relax.


Wrong... I had the opportunity to buy any brand I wanted when I decided to upgrade my Madone. After riding a number of different brands and modes I like the Emonda best. And i did ride the Madone 7 and Domane 6 in comparison.

Just to piss everyone off more... i got it with Sram Red 22. 

Trust me, I don't need anyone's "nice bike" comment. I ride my own route.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Yes, Trek does seem like the official Fred's bike with its super sloppy girly top tube, but the new hate on the block now is shifting toward Specialized. I've never owned a Trek simply because it was everywhere, but tellya what when I ditched my Specialized mtb bike, I felt so liberated, so much so that I felt like I had sucker punched the buyer into buying my Special-ed! Hehe. Never Trek, never Specialized.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> Yes, Trek does seem like the official Fred's bike with its super sloppy *girly* top tube, but the new hate on the block now is shifting toward Specialized. *I've never owned a Trek simply because it was everywhere*, but tellya what when I ditched my Specialized mtb bike, I felt so liberated, so much so that I felt like I had sucker punched the buyer into buying my Special-ed! Hehe. Never Trek, never Specialized.


Sounds like you're more concerned about what others think.

Bike shop must love you since you have to constantly buy a new bike to stay ahead of of the opinion of others.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

frisbie17 said:


> Lot of people on here really do not like Trek Bikes. Just wondering why? Post intelligent comments please with facts about the bikes. Not looking for "Because they suck comments".
> 
> Thanks


Treks are very common. My theory is they like to be different and trek ain't different but at the same time they hate things that are different from them and not trying to be different is different.

Kind of the hipster thing......only people and things unique and different just like me an my things are good.

You know those people you knew in high school that said with a straight face that Led Zepplin and the Beatles sucked and some much less popular (for good reason) band was way better? They probably hate trek now.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Yes, Trek does seem like the official Fred's bike with its super sloppy girly top tube


What is a 'super sloppy girly top tube' if I may ask ??

Do you mean due to the 'slope' of the TopTube and added a second P for pun's sake?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

robt57 said:


> What is a 'super sloppy girly top tube' if I may ask ??
> 
> Do you mean due to the 'slope' of the TopTube and added a second P for pun's sake?


lol back in the days when I was riding a bmx and moved to a 7spd road bike, the way the kids distinguish a boys from a girls bike was the sloppy top tube. Anything less than horizontal was a girly bike. Trek bikes have one of the slopiest top tube out there.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> lol back in the days when I was riding a bmx and moved to a 7spd road bike, the way the kids distinguish a boys from a girls bike was the sloppy top tube. Anything less than horizontal was a girly bike. Trek bikes have one of the slopiest top tube out there.


In a sport where you wear skin tight spendex such sensitivity towards anything a meat head might perceive as less than 100% masculin is a nice touch of irony.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> In a sport where you wear skin tight spendex such sensitivity towards anything a meat head might perceive as less than 100% masculin is a nice touch of irony.


That it is. 


But BMXers wear/wore baggy masculin duds arguably. Nice loose stuff with chains and **** hanging off to catch on **** rather than look girly presumably.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Carpbum said:


> According to Waterford's own website, during that period 15 Paramounts a week were being made in the Chicago plant, while 10 a week were being "outsourced" from Pioneer Manufacturing in Racine. All the frames went to Chicago where serial numbers were applied and there is no way to tell (by the serial #) where the frame was made.
> 
> I have two Paramount frames from that era, which I always assumed were from Chicago. Is there another distinct characteristic I can be looking for, i.e. in the brazing or lug work?


I'm thinking that Scooper would be the guy who would know those answers.

A Paramount has always been a bike on my want list.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

glenn said:


> Then you should buy one of these. You'll be the only one with one.


Aw, you went and hurt my feeling.

But you're wrong, if I got one of those there'd be two of us riding them, that guy and me.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

velodog said:


> I'm thinking that Scooper would be the guy who would know those answers.
> 
> A Paramount has always been a bike on my want list.


I believe the chrome ones are all WI and not Chicago. but I also think or seem to recall the Pioneer Manufacturing had something in the SN specific to being brazed there.

Here is my 72 I got as a frameset and cobbled a retro with modern drive train Sled. I love riding it I can tell you. Like Butta.

It has Nervex silver soldered lugs et al from the research I did back when I got it. Lucky for me it fits me perfectly.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> Yes, Trek does seem like the official Fred's bike with its super sloppy girly top tube, but the new hate on the block now is shifting toward Specialized. I've never owned a Trek simply because it was everywhere, but tellya what when I ditched my Specialized mtb bike, I felt so liberated, so much so that I felt like I had sucker punched the buyer into buying my Special-ed! Hehe. Never Trek, never Specialized.


Speaking of girly, isn't a VW beetle kind of a "girly car"?


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

velodog said:


> Speaking of girly, isn't a VW beetle kind of a "girly car"?



So is a Del Sol, which I drive. And we had a New Beetle for the duration of a lease 15 years back, and I would drive that today, girly or not. I am a 210 lb Clyde and about as non girly as one could be I like to think.  The VW is huge inside, something a clyde can appreciate.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

velodog said:


> Speaking of girly, isn't a VW beetle kind of a "girly car"?


It does the 1/4 mile in 12.7 seconds so the only thing girly is the driver of the mustang next to me screaming that he lost to a 4 cylinder.

Do you really care what others think?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

velodog said:


> Speaking of girly, isn't a VW beetle kind of a "girly car"?


If his comments regarding slope of a top tube on a bike being girly are any indication of what decade he's forming his opinions from I'm guessing VW bugs are Nazi cars.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

robt57 said:


> So is a Del Sol, which I drive.


Make her squeal like a F1 car with a B18C5 engine swap.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

robt57 said:


> And we had a New Beetle


No offense, but mine is a aircooled 1974 Beetle..... You know, a real one.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm guessing VW bugs are Nazi cars.


Actually designed by Ferdinand Porsche. And the early 356s used VW drivetrains and suspensions that Porsche modified.

But speaking of Nazis, Charles Lindberg and Henry Ford were Nazis by choice.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

This train must have square wheels. It has derailed with every other post.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

glenn said:


> No offense, but mine is a aircooled 1974 Beetle..... You know, a real one.



Have had quite a few of those a few decades earlier. I have sucked my share of #3 cyclinder exhaust valves and install my share of rebuilt motors, and froze my ars off in too. I did not fit as well inside I should mention. Even had a Diesel Rabbit Pickup which although I though was the bees knees I sold quickly as I fit in that even worse. 

The Del Sol I drive with the seat one click off the most rearward position. I am quite comfortable and not elbow bruises like the Rabbit and original Beetles. 

Oh, and a 66 micro that the seller had stuck a 36 HP motor in that was the slowest car I have ever driven, but fit in well.


----------



## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

This ain't no 36hp.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

robt57 said:


> I believe the chrome ones are all WI and not Chicago. but I also think or seem to recall the Pioneer Manufacturing had something in the SN specific to being brazed there.
> 
> Here is my 72 I got as a frameset and cobbled a retro with modern drive train Sled. I love riding it I can tell you. Like Butta.
> 
> It has Nervex silver soldered lugs et al from the research I did back when I got it. Lucky for me it fits me perfectly.


Dude, that's a sweet bicycle and it looks like it would fit me too.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

jfaas said:


> This train must have square wheels. It has derailed with every other post.


Time for the second batch - maybe butter this one.


----------



## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

ibericb said:


> Time for the second batch - maybe butter this one.


Extra salt might be more appropriate...


----------



## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

jfaas said:


> This train must have square wheels. It has derailed with every other post.


How did you know I was on a train


----------



## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

I own a Trek and a Time. Both are fine bikes. The Trek is a 2014 Domane 5.9 fitted with Dura Ace 9000 and the Time is a 2006 VXS with DA 7800. Yes, I know it comparison of a an 8 year old frame to a new one but the Domane is more comfortable and feels stiffer when climbing. I will see in April how the Domane descends when I head out to Sonoma.

With the Time is certainly is easy to find my bike in the corral at a large event.

Trek, Specialized, Giant, Felt, Orbea, Cervelo...all pretty similar. Buy what fits and which style excites you. Riding a Time, Colnago, Pinarello or other more "boutique" bike will not make you any faster.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

glenn said:


> How did you know I was on a train


Blind luck.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

frisbie17 said:


> Lot of people on here really do not like Trek Bikes. Just wondering why? Post intelligent comments please with facts about the bikes. Not looking for "Because they suck comments".
> 
> Thanks


Two reasons.
1) Trek's were extremely popular for years which invites eventual backlash.
2) Association with Lance Armstrong.

From a technical perspective Trek isn't any worse than the average brand out there. Of course if we're talking technicals, why not hate Cervelo?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> 1. because they acquire companies and then ruin them. 2, because most of their early technology was "borrowed" 3. because their early frames sucked, 4. LA. 5. Because they started the trend of suing everyone who used T R E or K in their company's name....


That pretty much covers it.
Plus as a bike shop owner, until the last year or so (finally!), "Trek" was used like Brits use "Hoover" for vacuum or morons use "Xerox" for copy, "Kleenex" for tissue, or "BandAid" for bandage. It was a generic. "Do y'all sell Treks?" "No. We sell KHS, Ciocc, DeBernardi, Cyfac, Casati, Ventana, and Eddy Merckx." "I thought you were a bike shop." "We are." "But you don't sell Treks....." or, even better, "How does Cyfac or Casati compare to Trek?" "They don't. That's like comparing French cuisine (or Italian, as the case may be) to a can of Vienna sausages."
Morons.

Trek (as a company) sucks. Can't really say much about their bikes, since they're just Giants.


----------



## Carpbum (Feb 10, 2015)

That's possible but I'm not sure. I visited the Chicago factory in 1974 and still remember the awful smell of the chrome plating operation there. It seems that it would have been much more cost effective to do all the plating in-house. Also, if the serial numbers were applied in Chicago, then I'd assume the chrome was done there also, because you certainly don't want to stamp them on after the chroming is done, the chrome would chip and flake.



robt57 said:


> I believe the chrome ones are all WI and not Chicago. but I also think or seem to recall the Pioneer Manufacturing had something in the SN specific to being brazed there.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

glenn said:


> This ain't no 36hp.



That was obvious enough by your stated 1/4 mile time.


----------



## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

velodog said:


> Dude, that's a sweet bicycle and it looks like it would fit me too.


It not only looks sweet, it has a refined ride quality. I am sure glad I offered 50.00 over his asking price after he sent me the measurements, which are no compromise to me, a lucky lucky happenstance. Else I doubt it would be in my possession. I gladly paid 300.00 for the frameset BB and headset.

To my surprise, looking at it and the BB drop with such long chain stays, etc.
I was sure it would be a noodle for the size [61CM] and my girth, somehow it is not.

The old school cyclists on the roads here in PDX go bonkers when they see me on it. I guess I am sortta one of them. Except I get sheit given to me from strangers about having indexed Shimano 10 speed cassette and barcons. A trick I did not think would work with re-dished and spaced axle. But I ride it for my enjoyment, not the enjoyment of folks that think it is sacrilege for it not to be all original. 


If one passes your way, don't let it pass you of it fits. It is an awesome ride IMO.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Would you guys like Trek (_you can plug the words "Giant" or Specialized" or whatever in_) more if they did these two things:

1) offered to remove any and/or all decals from any of their mid-to-higher frames and/or complete bikes? without costing extra?? 

2) offered component build customization, all stuff also offered as a black label option (i.e. meaning no labels, anywhere, on anything)?


Just curious. I personally have never owned a Trek, Giant, Specialized or any big name brand other than one of the European granddaddy names (Colnago, a 1992 steel Technos). No reason either that I haven't owned them, just haven't had the itch to get one of the other big aforementined names. 

It's funny, living here, European hard core riders in respective countries hate on equal levels brands like Colnago/Pinarellos/Time/Look----whatever is tied to thier homeland----like Americans hate Trek. Ride with my Italian friends (at NATO here there is opportunity to ride with all nationalities) and they will pound on Colnago/Pinarello riders/frames/bikes without mercy. Same goes for French riders and those on Time/Look stuff. Germans? Doesn't matter what you're on, they hate everything unless there's beer involved. Dutch? Exact opposite, they love everything and couldn't give a ratass. Belgians? You are hard pressed to ever hear them say anything nice about Ridley and/or Merckx bikes. 

And it goes on and on and on.............are we all fashion queens in disguise in our attempts to be hard core cyclists, finding it worldly cosmopolitan to hate our respective homeland's big names? Observations to the otherwise are hard to see at times.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

BelgianHammer said:


> ...
> 
> It's funny, living here, European hard core riders in respective countries hate on equal levels brands like Colnago/Pinarellos/Time/Look----whatever is tied to thier homeland----like Americans hate Trek. Ride with my Italian friends (at NATO here there is opportunity to ride with all nationalities) and they will pound on Colnago/Pinarello riders/frames/bikes without mercy. Same goes for French riders and those on Time/Look stuff. Germans? Doesn't matter what you're on, they hate everything unless there's beer involved. Dutch? Exact opposite, they love everything and couldn't give a ratass. Belgians? You are hard pressed to ever hear them say anything nice about Ridley and/or Merckx bikes.
> 
> ...


I love it. Suspect my Dutch wife will too.

So figure how to fit bikes into this:


*Heaven Is Where:*

The French are the chefs
The Italians are the lovers
The British are the police
The Germans are the mechanics
And the Swiss make everything run on time

And you bike is (fill in the blank) 


*Hell is Where:*

The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

And you bike is (fill in the blank)


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

BelgianHammer said:


> Would you guys like Trek (_you can plug the words "Giant" or Specialized" or whatever in_) more if they did these two things:
> 
> 1) offered to remove any and/or all decals from any of their mid-to-higher frames and/or complete bikes? without costing extra??
> 
> 2) offered component build customization, all stuff also offered as a black label option (i.e. meaning no labels, anywhere, on anything)?


The decals have nothing to do with the equation. My taste in bikes is in the steel variety, which are mostly less gaudy than their plastic cousins. And besides that, I like and enjoy my bicycles, so why would I want to hide what they are.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

^^lol ;-)


also,
re: "...I love it. Suspect my Dutch wife will too...."

Boy, did you get lucky. I hit the motherload trifecta with my wife. She is Luxembourgish (German and French) with an Irish descent. Half the time I'm not even sure where I stand, let alone if I am still standing, lol......I think if I could just clone & breed her, I could take over the Earth, no problems, and probably quite quickly too


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

With a Dutch wife, I always know exactly where I stand. If at any time it appears I don't understand, she will explain it to me very clearly with total Dutch efficiency, no meeting required.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

ibericb said:


> *Heaven Is Where:*
> *Hell is Where:*


Excellent.

Did that come from the folklore of a particular country?


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

myhui said:


> Did that come from the folklore of a particular country?


It was probably a collective UN resolution.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> It was probably a collective UN resolution.


I was going to guess Brooklyn...


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

PlatyPius said:


> Can't really say much about their bikes, since they're just Giants.


Odd, mine is made by Trek in Wisconsin.

And I picked mine because it fit and I was able to get it with the gruppo and components I wanted.

Not because it is or isn't a specific brand.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> I was going to guess Brooklyn...



What's the difference?


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

See my signature. 

By the time they are not boring, you might as well have your own bike built.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

ibericb said:


> What's the difference?


The ones in Brooklyn aren't real.

The ones in Europe are real.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

I am withholding my opinion until I find out whether or not Trek makes good bikes. If it is the last thing I ever do I will find out, mark my words; before I die I will find out if Trek makes good bikes.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Can't believe we got this far without talking about what they did to poor sad Greg...........:cryin:


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm more annoyed by what they did to Klein...


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

robt57 said:


> Here is my 72 I got as a frameset and cobbled a retro with modern drive train Sled. I love riding it I can tell you. Like Butta.
> 
> It has Nervex silver soldered lugs et al from the research I did back when I got it. Lucky for me it fits me perfectly.


That is one of the girliest slopiest seat tubes I've seen in a while. 

I guess that helps it ride like Butta :thumbsup: Beautiful ride!


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## crowaan (Aug 13, 2013)

Did Glenn join the forum just to comment on this thread? Massive fan boy.

I would like to hear a better argument for Trek than: ride what fits/suites/catches your fancy (unless its not a Trek).

To summarize the argument against Trek: might be good bikes, we just don't want one for (insert your reason).


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

The Wannabe Racer - nice blog. I especially like your recent series Base Training vs. High Intensity.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

I guess the assumption is that a product produced outside the USA or Europe is, by nature inferior? Like a Chevy is inherently better than a Honda? It doesn't matter what example you use, you can make fun and compelling arguments to support a lot of claims... USA or EURO made are completely made to such higher standards by such completely better artisans that offshore products are just waiting to assplode. So what is a buyer to do? Trust the Far East that makes cars that are the most reliable ever built? Or trust the USA that makes cars that struggle to compete because everyone knows that they are reliability challenged.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

crowaan said:


> Did Glenn join the forum just to comment on this thread?


Actually I joined to post a classified ad for my Madone that i'm selling and figured I should contribute.

The funny thing is, I plan on using the proceeds of the sale to buy another bike. I wanted a hybrid that leans toward the mountain bike side and looked at bikes from all the major brands.

Guess what.... I like the Trek Dual Sport 8.5.

Sorry haters, I tried not to buy another Trek, but it fits my needs best and is a better value than similar bikes from Cannondale, Specialized and some other brands.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

ibericb said:


> I love it. Suspect my Dutch wife will too.
> 
> So figure how to fit bikes into this:
> 
> ...


BikesDirect won't let me rep you for that awesome poast.

Oh wait, this is Trek thread.:mad2:


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## crowaan (Aug 13, 2013)

glenn said:


> Sorry haters, I tried not to buy another Trek, but it fits my needs best and is a better value than similar bikes from Cannondale, Specialized and some other brands.


Good for you. Buy what you want and stop listening to people on forums.


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

I hate Trek because they end up being the most popular bike at US bike shops.
And Trek made sure through advertising that people knew of their existence as people's memories of Schwinn faded (until the Schwinn name showed at at Walmart and Target).

But you won't see me with a Trek
I love my LeMond OCLV .. oh wait.
and my '95 Trek Y MTB

oh, nevermind.


where's the popcorn !?


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

The Trek hate has to do with the establishment, not the actual bikes. 
Trek makes bikes at least as good as most of the other bike manufacturers. Here, I said it. It's on record.

Do Specialized make good haters?


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

crowaan said:


> Good for you. Buy what you want and stop listening to people on forums.


I've been on the internet before there was a internet... remember dial up to a BBS?

I'm a moderator on the largest vintage VW forum and once had to tell someone he was getting advice from a 13 year old kid so he needs to know his source.

Everyone is a expert on the interweb and there are many "keyboard commandos" that use the anonymity of the interweb to stroke their egos.

I listen to others and take into account the source. The longer i know you the more I know to trust or not trust your opinion. And in the end, i make up my own mind.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Nothing wrong with Trek bikes.

They are just too common.....Same with Specialized....Everyone and their uncle has one...
If you ride a Trek, you better be good.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

We have a garage full of them. But I decided against getting a Trek road bike simply because they aren't putting the components I want on the frame I want to ride. (I also prefer steel to carbon, but that isn't a Trek-specific criticism.) In general, I think they charge too much for what you get now, even with kids bikes as compared to 10 years ago. Also, they seem to have some goofy proprietary stuff that leads to incompatibility.


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

robt57 said:


> My only Schwinn is a 1972 Chrome Paramount, made is Wisconsin BTW. In fact the earliest of the Waterford connection I believe,


The 1972 chrome Paramounts were brazed by Don Mainland, owner of Pioneer Manufacturing in Racine, WI. After brazing the frames, the chrome plating and bike assembly was done at Schwinn's Chicago factory. Don's brazing was flawless, and imperfections like sloppy lug shorelines and file marks made during cleanup stand out like sore thumbs on chrome plated frames.

Moving Paramount production to Waterford, WI, in 1980 was part of Ed Schwinn, Jr's plan to update the Paramount line making them more competitive. Marc Muller was put in charge of the Paramount Design Group in Waterford, and redesigned the bikes with more competitive geometry, investment cast lugs, and tighter manufacturing tolerances.

The production of the 1972 chrome Paramounts by Don Mainland in Racine was unrelated to moving Paramount production to Waterford eight years later.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Jeezus, Scooper, I feel old reading your post, especially when in my mind it just seemed like yesterday that my brother's Paramount, which he gave me back before RR got in the White House, was the prettiest damn thing I'd ever seen. What decade is it again??


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> If you ride a Trek, you better be good.


"Good" is a relative term. I'm a "good" B+ rider but a "average" A and a "poor" AA.



wgscott said:


> We have a garage full of them. But I decided against getting a Trek road bike simply because they aren't putting the components I want on the frame I want to ride.


That is one of the reasons I DID buy Trek. I wanted Red 22 and not all of the manufacturers offer it. But with Trek's Project One program I was able to build the bike the way I wanted. And if that wasn't good enough, i could of just bought the frameset and done it any way i wanted.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

glenn said:


> "Good" is a relative term. I'm a "good" B+ rider but a "average" A and a "poor" AA.
> 
> 
> That is one of the reasons I DID buy Trek. I wanted Red 22 and not all of the manufacturers offer it. But with Trek's Project One program I was able to build the bike the way I wanted. And if that wasn't good enough, i could of just bought the frameset and done it any way i wanted.


And it's somehow special that Drek sells just the frame? Most of the brands that I sell come as a frame and we build it how the customer wants it.


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

BelgianHammer said:


> Jeezus, Scooper, I feel old reading your post, especially when in my mind it just seemed like yesterday that my brother's Paramount, which he gave me back before RR got in the White House, was the prettiest damn thing I'd ever seen. What decade is it again??


Heh.. I was thirty years old in 1972 and my dad had been a Schwinn factory regional sales manager for more than 20 years at the time. I had visited the Schwinn factory several times and Schwinn was like a big extended family back then. It's been over four decades, but it seems like yesterday.


----------



## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

PlatyPius said:


> And it's somehow special that Drek sells just the frame? Most of the brands that I sell come as a frame and we build it how the customer wants it.


What!  how is that possible?


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

stevesbike said:


> 1. because they acquire companies and then ruin them. 2, because most of their early technology was "borrowed" 3. because their early frames sucked, 4. LA. 5. Because they started the trend of suing everyone who used T R E or K in their company's name....


The only companies worse are Spech and Speedplay.


----------



## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Add on to my previous post:

I admitted to lack of love by I happened to notice in the garage today my wife's Trek 2.1 and son's Gary Fuhrer so it seems there are good memories still alive.


----------



## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

Does Trek make good bikes?


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

old_fuji said:


> Does Trek make good bikes?


With the exception of the Madone 7, Trek no longer makes bikes. They strictly design and market. Trek 7 is a good bike though, just not what I'd look for in a bike at this point.


----------



## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

crowaan said:


> Good for you. Buy what you want and stop listening to people on forums.


I agree, except for the paradox part. Listen to and, most importantly, believe everyone on forums.


----------



## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

Trek_5200 said:


> With the exception of the Madone 7, Trek no longer makes bikes. They strictly design and market. Trek 7 is a good bike though, just not what I'd look for in a bike at this point.


My Emonda SLR was hand made in Wisconsin.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

glenn said:


> That is one of the reasons I DID buy Trek. I wanted Red 22 and not all of the manufacturers offer it. But with Trek's Project One program I was able to build the bike the way I wanted. And if that wasn't good enough, i could of just bought the frameset and done it any way i wanted.


I decided if I was going to go to that much trouble and cost, I should have a custom bike from a frame-builder, so I got one from my own zip code.

When I got my first Trek, it was out of Waterloo. It was a touring bike and nearly flawless.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> With the exception of the Madone 7, Trek no longer makes bikes. They strictly design and market. Trek 7 is a good bike though, just not what I'd look for in a bike at this point.


All OCLV 700 carbon frames are made in the U.S. Currently that is limited to the Madone 7 and Emonda SLR series frames.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

glenn said:


> People hate Trek because it's not as exclusive at Cervelo, Guru, BMC and others. Trek sells everything from $16,000 bikes to $100 kids bikes.. .so does Specialized. I guess people feel that Trek is But then Volkswagen also owns Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Porsche.


I don't hate Trek, I just feel to buy one is a very boring experience, much like 'Spech. They are bland and are everywhere. And spending over $2k on one is just stupid IMO, as for $3,500 you can buy a Time and they know more about carbon composites than pretty much anyone less Giant.


----------



## Corey213 (Jan 11, 2013)

Like others said, you have the same kind of hate in any category that people have passions. I hate Toyotas but people you have people that love them. You gotta find what you enjoy and like go with it.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

Hate is such a strong word.

I dislike many things, but don't really hate anything other than cancer.


----------



## SwimCycle09 (Apr 22, 2014)

So I am not an experienced road rider by any means (3rd year riding more seriously) but as I have become more interested in the sport and done an unhealthy amount of reading on bikes & gear, it's clear that different brands offer slightly different things and deciding best value is up to the consumer. Trek fits that for a lot of riders and one huge advantage they have being a large bike company is it isn't difficult to find a Trek dealer for support, which can be an issue for other brands.

The big reasons why some people hate trek have already been pretty well summarized in this thread but I think the biggest one is everything they as company were involved in during Lance Armstrong's 7 tour winning years. I wanted more information on the whole Armstrong affair so I again did some serious reading about it (a healthy amount this time lol). How Trek treated Greg Lemond when he spoke out against doping at the time was pretty terrible all around. These kind of actions & similar business practices will make some people not support them in protest. Personally I am still on the fence about them as a company.

Buying/supporting Trek or hating them comes down to:
-if you care about how they treated Lemond and other smaller name bike makers they absorbed
-your opinion on their role in the whole Lance Armstrong lie
- if you care that everyone and their brother has one
-most importantly if their bikes offer what fits your needs best or not. If they do great! They make both nice and marginal bikes. If Trek's bikes don't fill what you are looking for great! There are lots of other choices out there.

All that aside, the Domane and all its innovation looks pretty awesome and I would love to test ride one.


----------



## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

SwimCycle09 said:


> -if you care about how they treated Lemond and *other smaller name bike makers* they absorbed


I don't know the entire history but these guys seems to like being part of Trek.

Gary Fisher


----------



## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

Keith Bontrager


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

glenn said:


> Keith Bontrager


Yeah.... the guys profiting from the company would never lie or sugar-coat to keep their companies/names from being axed.



glenn said:


> I don't know the entire history but these guys seems to like being part of Trek.
> 
> Gary Fisher


----------



## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

PlatyPius said:


> Yeah.... the guys profiting from the company would never lie or sugar-coat to keep their companies/names from being axed.


So jaded...

But i can understand. i won't buy Apple products or their stock even though I can make a profit by doing so.

Everyone has their cause. If Trek is yours, more power to you.


----------



## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

glenn said:


> Hate is such a strong word.
> 
> I dislike many things, but don't really hate anything other than cancer.


Well, for me there are a few more. 'Hate' itself, bigotry, oppression, rape, gluttony & greed to grab a few of the 7 deadlies... and waste...

Big OT post, sorry...

Treks are bikes, tools, instruments. And only one of many many many...

If one has a reason withing their belief system to not buy/ride/use, I will drink to his right to it, even though I neither ride a Trek [would/could though] or drink.


----------



## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

SwimCycle09 said:


> So I am not an experienced road rider by any means (3rd year riding more seriously)
> 
> The big reasons why some people hate trek have already been pretty well summarized in this thread but I think the biggest one is everything they as company were involved in during Lance Armstrong's 7 tour winning years. I wanted more information on the whole Armstrong affair so I again did some serious reading about it (a healthy amount this time lol). How Trek treated Greg Lemond when he spoke out against doping at the time was pretty terrible all around. These kind of actions & similar business practices will make some people not support them in protest. Personally I am still on the fence about them as a company.
> 
> ...


I didn't want a trek long b/f armstrong. Without the benefit of hindsight, Lemond was being an ass. His actions put trek between a rock (bad publicity from a washed-up sport star with a minimal brand) and a hard place (the loads of money armstrong generated for them). 

It is not really how they treated the companies they absorbed, it is how they turned the brands they purchased into lesser versions of themselves and then phased them out. 

But, it is really that everyone and their sister has one. Although, I now ride a niner and a specialized. So, I have little room to talk - doesn't mean I will actually accept my hypocrisy and buy a trek.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

glenn said:


> So jaded...
> 
> But i can understand. i won't buy Apple products or their stock even though I can make a profit by doing so.
> 
> Everyone has their cause. If Trek is yours, more power to you.


I won't buy Apple products either. Trek, Specialized, Speedplay, Fuji, and Apple are my No-Buy companies.


----------



## SwimCycle09 (Apr 22, 2014)

crit_boy said:


> It is not really how they treated the companies they absorbed, it is how they turned the brands they purchased into lesser versions of themselves and then phased them out.


Thanks. This is what I was trying to point out, you explained it way better than I did.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

robt57 said:


> Well, for me there are a few more. 'Hate' itself, bigotry, oppression, rape, gluttony & greed to grab a few of the 7 deadlies... and waste...
> 
> Big OT post, sorry...
> 
> ...


I also don't drink or ride Treks, but if I did drink, I could probably get drunk enough that I would ride a Trek. At least until I sobered up. 

I'd claim a blackout though.


----------



## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> I won't buy Apple products either. Trek, Specialized, Speedplay, Fuji, and Apple are my No-Buy companies.


Just curious, but why Fuji? I was given to believe they were a decent company.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

junior1210 said:


> Just curious, but why Fuji? I was given to believe they were a decent company.


No ide about decent, or not, but Fuji Bikes is a brand owned by Advanced Sports International.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> I won't buy Apple products either. Trek, Specialized, Speedplay, Fuji, and Apple are my No-Buy companies.


That kind of helps to confirm that it is essentially not a rational analysis. (Unless it is a strict adherence to the GNU-Linux ethic, in which case, apologies.)


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

junior1210 said:


> Just curious, but why Fuji? I was given to believe they were a decent company.


Because they sell to bikes direct and performance.


----------



## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> I don't hate Trek, I just feel to buy one is a very boring experience, much like 'Spech. They are bland and are everywhere. And spending over $2k on one is just stupid IMO, as for $3,500 you can buy a Time and they know more about carbon composites than pretty much anyone less Giant.


And when you buy that Trek, unless it's a 7 series, you're buying a frame from the one company that knows more about carbon composites than Time. :wink:


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mpre53 said:


> And when you buy that Trek, unless it's a 7 series, you're buying a frame from the one company that knows more about carbon composites than Time. :wink:


Which one of the three companies that Trek uses to produce it's OCLV frames (other than OCLV 700) would that be?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Because they sell to bikes direct and performance.


Campagnolo, SRAM, and Shimano sell to Performance.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

When did they switch over? My older bikes are made in Wisc., then I have two mtn bikes (one is my wife's) that are ca. 2006 or 2007, and no where on the frame does it say anything one way or the other where they are made, and then we have some newer ones that say designed in Wisc or something similar. At the time, part of my justification for spending a bit more was that it was supporting American jobs.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

wgscott said:


> That kind of helps to confirm that it is essentially not a rational analysis. (Unless it is a strict adherence to the GNU-Linux ethic, in which case, apologies.)


Trek - killed Bontrager, Klein, Lemond, and Fisher (although Fisher has always been a bit of a douche anyway) and will probably soon do the same to Electra. Requires most new dealers to stock 75% of their store with Trek/Bontrager crap. (ie: boring) Crucified Lemond when he accused Lance of doping. Surprise! Lance was doping.

Specialized - I actually do HATE Specialized; the others are only dislike. Aside from the same issues as Trek (They also want a large percentage of your store to be Spec-Ed crap, AND they tell you what other brands you can and can not carry!), Sinyard's company sues the hell out of everyone. The debacle with the Cafe Roubaix bike shop in Canada was the one that made it hate for me. Specialized can go to hell, as can anyone who rides one.

Speedplay - One of the douchiest companies I know of. I refuse to carry them in my store.

Fuji - Only mild dislike for Fuji, and only because they sell (via their parent company) their old models to BikesDirect, rebranded as Motobecane/Mercier/Dawes/etc. And, of course, they sell to Performance.

Apple - purely subjective dislike. I hate fanbois. People would buy a turd if it was an iTurd. People are stupid. People are sheep.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

I've bought Apple computers primarily because they (a) aren't windows, (b) high-quality hardware -- admittedly less so now than a few years ago, and (c) because OS X is a unix operating system -- I would be running linux on PCs otherwise; I need it to be unix.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

wgscott said:


> When did they switch over? My older bikes are made in Wisc., then I have two mtn bikes (one is my wife's) that are ca. 2006 or 2007, and no where on the frame does it say anything one way or the other where they are made, and then we have some newer ones that say designed in Wisc or something similar. At the time, part of my justification for spending a bit more was that it was supporting American jobs.


I don't really know which year, but I suspect it's dependent on frame technology.

As best I know all Al frames have been made in Asia for more than 10 years. Last year I was told by a Trek insider who knows, that essentially all the Al frames are produced for Trek by Giant, and that carbon frames other than OCLV 700 are produced by one of three other manufacturers. From another source I was told that one of the three was Kinesis, but I have no way to confirm that. All OCLV 700 frames are made in Wisconsin.

In a CNBC report last year, Trek stated they would produce between 20,000 and 25,000 bikes in Waterloo, and that would represent about 1 percent of their total production. Stated separately, about 56,000 bikes were made domestically in 2013. From that report it appears that Trek has about a 40% share of domestically produced bikes.

If your bike was made outside the U.S., then there should have been a decal or sticker on it somewhere to identify where it was made. On my 2014 Domane it's on the top of the head tube over the badge, right upfront - "Made in Taiwan". If your bike is aged, it may have been lost along the way. If the frame denotes it was Designed in Wisconsin, then you be pretty sure it was not made in the U.S.


----------



## kookieCANADA (Jan 20, 2011)

Add in there the 6 Series Madones were made in the USA.

If the bike states "Designed in..." it was probably made in Asia.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

kookieCANADA said:


> Add in there the 6 Series Madones were made in the USA.


Those are no longer made, anywhere. The only carbon fames made in The US are the Madone 7 series and the Emonda SLR frames.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

junior1210 said:


> Just curious, but why Fuji? I was given to believe they were a decent company.


They are a decent company. They provide the best bang for your buck. It invites newbies to experience cycling without the draw backs of having crappy frame/components without breaking the bank.

IMO, Fuji is the gateway drug into cycling, then later on you'll get into the harder stuff like the Evo Hi-Mod, etc.


----------



## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> Yeah.... the guys profiting from the company would never lie or sugar-coat to keep their companies/names from being axed.


And/Or they found an outlet where their products or ideas can be provided to the masses.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Trek - killed Bontrager, Klein, Lemond, and Fisher (although Fisher has always been a bit of a douche anyway) and will probably soon do the same to Electra. Requires most new dealers to stock 75% of their store with Trek/Bontrager crap. (ie: boring) Crucified Lemond when he accused Lance of doping. Surprise! Lance was doping.
> 
> Specialized - I actually do HATE Specialized; the others are only dislike. Aside from the same issues as Trek (They also want a large percentage of your store to be Spec-Ed crap, AND they tell you what other brands you can and can not carry!), Sinyard's company sues the hell out of everyone. The debacle with the Cafe Roubaix bike shop in Canada was the one that made it hate for me. Specialized can go to hell, as can anyone who rides one.
> 
> .


I get the dislike for Trek. Awful what they did to Lemond, the man. They did not hurt anyone but themselves when they squandered all of Klein's market value.

Specialized - fell over themselves apologizing profusely for threatening to sue Cafe Roubaix. Was more their hyperreactive lawyers who worried about chinese copies of their products had them on a hair trigger.

Now I grew up in a family bike shop, and we suffered abuses by manufacturers and suppliers at times. Actually Specialized never pulled any funny business on us back then, and I really liked their product (though I rode a Klein back then). But that is a business problem, not something for the consumer to be concerned with. They make marketing decisions, and Specialized benefits or suffers the consequences. It is just business. I have no more and no less affection for the local bike shops here than I do for the manufacturers, BTW.

Not sure why you would say you dislike people who choose to ride a Specialized. I would bet that 99% of such folks are not doing a full on ethical-practices research into anything they buy. And besides, I bought my Specialized frame 8 years used, for a tenth of its msrp new, and I love the bike, but would have bought any of its competing brands if such a frame came on the market (maybe leaning stronger to Cervelo for nationalistic reasons). And I try my level best to avoid doing business with the LBS, LOL. mostly populated by snobby aholes who hate everyone not like them, these shops ... maybe they are too much like ...? ahem I wont say it


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

frisbie17 said:


> Lot of people on here really do not like Trek Bikes. Just wondering why? Post intelligent comments please with facts about the bikes. Not looking for "Because they suck comments".
> 
> Thanks





Oxtox said:


> I don't hate them. I just don't want one.


I don't own one, but I have ridden 2 a decent distance. Nothing bad to say, but I wasn't going "wow, I have to sell my piece of sh!t CAAD10 and get me one of these"

I think the "hate" comes from a history of n00bs jumping on here and asking,
"Does Trek make good bikes"


----------



## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Some people, for whatever psychological reason, seem to hate success. Hence the hate for Walmart, Trek, Specialized, etc. 

Certainly glad I'm not one of this type.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

My first "serious" Trek was a steel-framed touring bike I got in 1989 to replace my Miyata touring bike that got ripped off the night of the 1989 quake when I loaned it to a friend to get home. Although I loved that Miyata, the Trek 520 was a good solid bike, and I rode it down the whole of the West Coast and the only maintenance it needed was a slight tightening of the headset. Subsequent tours were worry-free, and I commuted on it for years, leaving it parked every day in the rain (England) for 3.5 years, and it still worked flawlessly. That bike was very well-made. I finally gave it away about 8 years ago, but it still worked well with all original components, wheels etc. (I replaced the chain and maybe the freewheel). It was based on that experience that I bought my kids a series of Trek bikes, and bought me and my wife Trek full-suspension mtn bikes. All of those have been good purchases.

Three Trek purchases I regret: (1) A ~$900 mtg-bike-like tandem. (2) My very first mtn bike in 1992; it was a torture rack and I thought I hated mtn biking as a consequence, (3) a Gary Fischer/Trek hybrid. All of these, plus my Crackandfail "handmade in the US" commuting bike which I never really was comfortable on, had one thing in common: Aluminum frames. I'm still not sure whether it was the Al itself, or this just coincided with them cheaping out on design, but the only Al bikes I have enjoyed riding are full-suspension mountain bikes (leading me to the very cynical conclusion that shock absorbers are primarily included to hide the frame characteristics).


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

NealH said:


> Some people, for whatever psychological reason, seem to hate success. Hence the hate for Walmart, Trek, Specialized, etc.
> 
> Certainly glad I'm not one of this type.


There are _plenty_ of other reasons to hate Walmart; it isn't just because they are so beautiful.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

NealH said:


> Some people, for whatever psychological reason, seem to hate success. Hence the hate for Walmart, Trek, Specialized, etc.


Many people hate successful megacorps because of their particular ruthless business practices.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

NealH said:


> Some people, for whatever psychological reason, seem to hate success. Hence the hate for Walmart, Trek, Specialized, etc.
> 
> Certainly glad I'm not one of this type.


while other people, for whatever psychological reason, can't seem to resist sophomoric ad hominen attacks.


----------



## T800 (Jan 27, 2014)

wgscott said:


> When did they switch over? My older bikes are made in Wisc., then I have two mtn bikes (one is my wife's) that are ca. 2006 or 2007, and no where on the frame does it say anything one way or the other where they are made, and then we have some newer ones that say designed in Wisc or something similar. At the time, part of my justification for spending a bit more was that it was supporting American jobs.


Giant has been making Trek bikes for a while.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/31/w...es-now-makes-a-point-of-riding-them.html?_r=0


----------



## T800 (Jan 27, 2014)

PlatyPius said:


> I won't buy Apple products either. Trek, Specialized, Speedplay, Fuji, and Apple are my No-Buy companies.


Giant is not on your list?


----------



## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

It's amazing how everyone says it's all about the engine, then turn around and say this x brand is better then t brand


Aren't they pretty much all the same and it's really all about the engine?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

r1lee said:


> It's amazing how everyone says it's all about the engine, then turn around and say this x brand is better then t brand
> 
> 
> Aren't they pretty much all the same and it's really all about the engine?


We likes to argue.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

NealH said:


> Some people, for whatever psychological reason, seem to hate success. Hence the hate for Walmart, Trek, Specialized, etc.
> 
> Certainly glad I'm not one of this type.


depends on the methods used to achieve success...Walmart is especially despicable for its labor practices.

but, if you want to overlook those types of minor details and just admire bottom lines, go right ahead.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Money Honey


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Oxtox said:


> depends on the methods used to achieve success...Walmart is especially despicable for its labor practices.
> 
> but, if you want to overlook those types of minor details and just admire bottom lines, go right ahead.


Anyone whom doesn't have the innner fortitude to use their one life on this earth to get skilled and educated or just innovative, creative or productive ... deserves to work at Walmart. And thus I have no qualms about how they do business, within the limits of existing labour law (and we have crazy tough labour laws here, with Walmarts everywhere)

I have much greater contempt for phony corporate cultures like Lululemon and Disney who try to overwhelm their workers lives with their cult like approach to business. Walmart is not particularly heinous in that regard.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

T800 said:


> Giant has been making Trek bikes for a while.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/31/w...es-now-makes-a-point-of-riding-them.html?_r=0


Interesting read, but (unless I missed it), it didn't say when it began. My 2 bikes that don't say anything one way or the other were from 2007/8 I think. I suspect Giant was making them back then, but Trek was trying to de-emphasize it. I've given away the older children's bikes and the other ones, so I can't check the earlier ones I got around 2000 or so.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

wgscott said:


> My 2 bikes that don't say anything one way or the other were from 2007/8 I think.


From U.S. Customs:

"_In the United States, the marking statute, Section 304, Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1304) requires that, unless excepted, every article of foreign origin (or its container) imported into the U.S. shall be marked with its country of origin._"

If it was manufactured outside the U.S., then when it was sold to the original purchaser it had to have the country of origin marked on the bike.



> I suspect Giant was making them back then, but Trek was trying to de-emphasize it. I've given away the older children's bikes and the other ones, so I can't check the earlier ones I got around 2000 or so.


Giant was doing some of Trek's production certainly in 2005. How much and which frames, I have no clue.


----------



## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

ibericb said:


> Giant was doing some of Trek's production certainly in 2005. How much and which frames, I have no clue.


I believe giant makes all of trek road frames aside from.
7 series madone
Slr emonda


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

r1lee said:


> I believe giant makes all of trek road frames aside from.
> 7 series madone
> Slr emonda


As I posted earlier, a knowledgeable Trek employee last year told me that essentially all of Trek's Al frames were made by Giant, but the OCLV frames other than the 700 series (Madone 7 and Emonda SLR) were made by three other manufacturers in Asia. Later I was told by another that Kinesis does some of Trek's OCLV frame manufacturing, but it wasn't specified which ones. My 2014 Domane 4.7 was made in Taiwan.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

I'm surprised Trek isn't appreciated more by some of the naysayers, since they seem to be the most reluctant of the Holy Trinity to put disk brakes on their road bikes.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Did some searching, but couldn't come up with anything definitive or official. I did find this thread in another forum dated "1 year ago". In that thread one member identified as trekcol posted the following:

"_Trek still manufacture in Wisconsin and their entire engineering, testing, design etc are based at the same building as the carbon assembly, the 5 series and below are outsourced to two seperate Taiwanese companies. They manufacture our frames to our precise spec and precise oclv construction method. Obviously we have full time employees checking quality and continual testing of product to keep controls high. The alloy frames are made in Taiwan by mainly giant. Again these frames are not re-badged giants! We have tight control on designs and tube shapes- and we own a lot of the machines that produce our technology. We do not currently produce in Vietnam, Malaysia etc. we also do not use Merida- who make a stack of other brands frames with great quality.
Alloy prototypes and special one off pro riders frames can still be made in Wisconsin, but these are pretty expensive custom runs.
All treks are designed, and tested by trek- we don't buy 'off the shelf' designs from far eastern companies, which is obviously the cheapest way to produce a frame_"

_Caveat emptor_ - I have no way of determining if what was shared by trekcol is genuine or not, but it generally agrees with what I was told, although trekcol says two and I was told three.


----------



## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Well it might add up to 3... 2 making carbon frames and giant being another making aluminium frames...


----------



## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Anyone whom doesn't have the innner fortitude to use their one life on this earth to get skilled and educated or just innovative, creative or productive ... deserves to work at Walmart.


For whom the grammar tolls. 

What was that about education?


----------



## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to crit_boy again." 

damn it


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mik_git said:


> Well it might add up to 3... 2 making carbon frames and giant being another making aluminium frames...


Good point - could be I misunderstood what I was told.


----------



## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

NealH said:


> Some people, for whatever psychological reason, seem to hate success. Hence the hate for Walmart, Trek, Specialized, etc.
> 
> Certainly glad I'm not one of this type.


And Corporate America thanks you for your continued patronage :thumbsup:


----------



## Jackhammer (Sep 23, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Treks are very common. My theory is they like to be different and trek ain't different but at the same time they hate things that are different from them and not trying to be different is different.
> 
> Kind of the hipster thing......only people and things unique and different just like me an my things are good.
> 
> You know those people you knew in high school that said with a straight face that Led Zepplin and the Beatles sucked and some much less popular (for good reason) band was way better? They probably hate trek now.


Ted Nugent hates Trek?


----------



## Josh8 (Nov 12, 2009)

ibericb said:


> Those are no longer made, anywhere. The only carbon fames made in The US are the Madone 7 series and the Emonda SLR frames.


Also the Session carbon.


----------



## obed (Jan 12, 2014)

not a trek hater... currently I own 3 treks, 1 ridley, 1 Giant and 1 KHS.
I buy what i like and not what the label reads.


----------



## Jackhammer (Sep 23, 2014)

obed said:


> not a trek hater... currently I own 3 treks, 1 ridley, 1 Giant and 1 KHS.
> I buy what i like and not what the label reads.


I don't like them because of their ethics, but the Domane is very clever and I think that anyone would have a hard time denying that.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Josh8 said:


> Also the Session carbon.


That maybe true, but I haven't seen Trek note that recently. Trek used to state (2010) that the OCLV Mountain carbon frames were made only in Waterloo. As of last year, I haven't seen them claim that any more. 

In September last year on a Trek Q&A the question was posed, _"Are there ANY Trek frames still built in the U.S.A. ?"_. The answer from Trek was_"The Emonda SLR and Madone 7 series frames are made in the United States."_

Part of the issue may be export control of the carbon technology used in their high end carbon frames (e.g., OCLV 700 road for sure). For road carbon Trek states that 700 Series OCLV materials are only available in NATO countries. They don't make that distinction for OCLV Mountain carbon.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Jackhammer said:


> I don't like them because of their ethics, ...


Specifically, what ethical issues lead you to not liking Trek?


----------



## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm out of popcorn, this needs to stop until I can get more.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

ibericb said:


> Specifically, what ethical issues lead you to not liking Trek?


They built and supplied the bicycles that facilitated the NAZI invasion of Belgium.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

jfaas said:


> I'm out of popcorn, this needs to stop until I can get more.


I knew this was going to be one of those ... too bad it doesn't come in 3-D


----------



## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

ibericb said:


> T
> Part of the issue may be export control of the carbon technology used in their high end carbon frames (e.g., OCLV 700 road for sure). For road carbon Trek states that 700 Series OCLV materials are only available in NATO countries. They don't make that distinction for OCLV Mountain carbon.


the question is, which countries aren't in NATO.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

r1lee said:


> the question is, which countries aren't in NATO.


None of the ones in Asia making bicycles.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

ibericb said:


> None of the ones in Asia making bicycles.


What about the North Atlantic Asian countries?


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

wgscott said:


> What about the North Atlantic Asian countries?


They aren't in NATO yet, or on the map either. Nobody can find them. They must be drifting at sea.


----------



## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

This was definitely not the time to jump in the conversation. We've gone from does trek make good bikes to fighting over Greenland for minerals.


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jackhammer said:


> I don't like them because of their ethics, but the Domane is very clever and I think that anyone would have a hard time denying that.


The people that make the bike pretty strongly deny it.






Just watch the first minute or so.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> The people that make the bike pretty strongly deny it.
> 
> Just watch the first minute or so.


Just more of the same old marketing war - nothing substantial.

FYI - by a couple of different accounts Giant doesn't produce any of Trek's OCLV frames, just all of Trek's Al frames.


----------



## The_AwesomeSauce_Show (May 22, 2010)

I love my Klein!!!!!


----------



## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

^^lol

you guys are killing me with this NATO & Trek killed Belgium stuff. 

When I go in the NATO gate tomorrow morning, I am going to glance over at all the flags (_you know, the ones where Goldie Hawn circled under them decades ago in her famous Private Benjamin movie...not much has changed since then, haha_) and see if I discern any Asian looking flags. It's the only way we'll know for sure, because quite honestly, NATO is so damn fluid nowadays there isn't anyone who knows for sure who's in and who's out (and we work there!). 

One thing is for dead sure though, if I see Trek's flag flying up on one of the NATO poles, I am turning around and driving straight to Eastern Mother Russia to disappear forever.....Ed Snowden, get a cot out for me


----------



## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

The past is history, if your into history read about it. I personally don't give a FF about what Trek once did. The Germans once wiped out half of Europe, do I hate Germans - NO, it's history get over it, **** happened. 

Now let's settle one of cycling's greatest dilemma's once and for all "Does Trek make good bikes"? YES they do! So does a lot of other companies as well. Now that we have this dilemma solved, get back on the trainers there is only a month and a bit of winter left.


----------



## dir-t (Oct 14, 2005)

glenn said:


> I'm a moderator on the largest vintage VW forum and once had to tell someone he was getting advice from a 13 year old kid so he needs to know his source
> .


You're THAT Glenn? No way! Now when are you going to make seperate T3 and T4 forums?


----------



## frisbie17 (Jan 17, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> Trek - killed Bontrager, Klein, Lemond, and Fisher (although Fisher has always been a bit of a douche anyway) and will probably soon do the same to Electra. Requires most new dealers to stock 75% of their store with Trek/Bontrager crap. (ie: boring) Crucified Lemond when he accused Lance of doping. Surprise! Lance was doping.
> 
> Specialized - I actually do HATE Specialized; the others are only dislike. Aside from the same issues as Trek (They also want a large percentage of your store to be Spec-Ed crap, AND they tell you what other brands you can and can not carry!), Sinyard's company sues the hell out of everyone. The debacle with the Cafe Roubaix bike shop in Canada was the one that made it hate for me. Specialized can go to hell, as can anyone who rides one.
> 
> ...


What is up with Speedplay? Their X series pedals are the most comfortable pedals I have ever used. Love the float. 

Man... Most on here would really hate my bike. It is a mix of brands that most do not think go together. I ride others stuff and purchase the parts I like. I buy a ton of stuff each year to try and ride. I then keep what I like and replaced what I don't. I keep what I felt most comfortable on over time. For now... My 2013 Trek Madone, Bontrager XXX-Lite Stem, Enve Wheels, Chris King hubs, Speedplay x2 pedals, Zipp Bars, Dura-ace 9070 Di2, Stages Power meter, Garmin 1000, etc... Built based on trial and error and the parts that feel the best to me. To me, my bike is amazing to ride. But the build is a collage of what I feel works well.


----------



## frisbie17 (Jan 17, 2012)

Here is a pick for you guy to look at in disgust.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

r1lee said:


> It's amazing how everyone says it's all about the engine, then turn around and say this x brand is better then t brand
> 
> 
> Aren't they pretty much all the same and it's really all about the engine?


It's all about the engine until you beat me up the hill. Then, it's the bikes fault and I need a better one than you have.


----------



## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

ibericb said:


> They aren't in NATO yet, or on the map either. Nobody can find them. They must be drifting at sea.


Or maybe they met their Waterloo.


----------



## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> It's all about the engine until you beat me up the hill. Then, it's the bikes fault and I need a better one than you have.


No one asked for the truth in this thread.


----------



## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

frisbie17 said:


> Here is a pick for you guy to look at in disgust.


Ewww.


----------



## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

crit_boy said:


> No one asked for the truth in this thread.


And that's exactly what you didn't get.


----------



## frisbie17 (Jan 17, 2012)

jfaas said:


> Ewww.


:thumbsup:


----------



## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

I don't like TREK either and wouldn't ride one simply because they are everywhere, but one of the guys I ride with has that high end Madone made in Wisconsin and its beautiful. Not a chance it has stickers on it. I know a few that have 4 and 5 series Madone's and those also do not have stickers. Sorry, but this doesn't sound right.



MMsRepBike said:


> I do not like their bottom bracket standard. I think it sucks, it's a problem for our shop all the time (unless you see it as a positive). I don't like any press-fit bottom bracket standards to be honest.
> 
> I think the quality of their bikes is poor. I recently was working on one of the made in Wisconsin or whatever top end Madone frames. It is by far the cheapest looking "high end" carbon frame I've ever touched. The graphics on it are not painted on, they're not water transferred on, they're cheap stickers. Not even laser cut vinyl stickers either, the old school type that have the clear borders around everything, the really cheap kind. The frame looks like it came from Wal-Mart, I would be disgusted if that was my company's top end offering.
> 
> ...


----------



## AMG_Roadster (Sep 26, 2014)

I think Trek makes some nice, light bikes at reasonable prices. That being said I do not see myself purchasing one. Too many people ride them for me. Same reason I have no interest in Specialized.

I think there are better options out there for the same kind of money.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

AMG_Roadster said:


> I think Trek makes some nice, light bikes at reasonable prices. That being said I do not see myself purchasing one. Too many people ride them for me. Same reason I have no interest in Specialized.
> 
> I think there are better options out there for the same kind of money.


That said there's a great amount of herd mentality amongst bike companies most of which basically design and market, and wind up purchasing the same carbon and build in the same few factories in China. Aero is hot one year so everyone goes aero, then light is in , so everyone has a bike that shaves a few more grams, then oversized bottom brackets are in and every bike has that. It's for that reason I would go custom American Ti for my next bike. Colnago on their high end while not custom does build the c-59 and c-60 remarkably similar to how a custom bike would be built too.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> That said there's a great amount of herd mentality amongst bike companies most of which basically design and market, and wind up purchasing the same carbon and build in the same few factories in China. Aero is hot one year so everyone goes aero, then light is in , so everyone has a bike that shaves a few more grams, then oversized bottom brackets are in and every bike has that. It's for that reason I would go custom American Ti for my next bike. Colnago on their high end while not custom does build the c-59 and c-60 remarkably similar to how a custom bike would be built too.


you keep saying this in various threads, but it's just not true. There's more differentiation among frames today than ever before. Some of us are old enough to remember when there were only a few steel tubesets and the difference in frames were minuscule ones of geometry. People don't dislike Trek because of the functional properties of their frames. They dislike them for their corporate brand and what it represents - again, mostly to those old enough to know their corporate history.


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## AMG_Roadster (Sep 26, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> That said there's a great amount of herd mentality amongst bike companies most of which basically design and market, and wind up purchasing the same carbon and build in the same few factories in China. Aero is hot one year so everyone goes aero, then light is in , so everyone has a bike that shaves a few more grams, then oversized bottom brackets are in and every bike has that. It's for that reason I would go custom American Ti for my next bike. Colnago on their high end while not custom does build the c-59 and c-60 remarkably similar to how a custom bike would be built too.


There is certainly some truth in your statements. My example would be to look at the color schemes of bikes.

However look at all the great options available these days. There are tons of bikes available to consumers these days.

If you really want to be different I say purchase an older steel frame and own it. Lets be honest no one is paying us (the vast majority of riders) to ride. So what does it really matter if you are 2 minutes faster over a 62 mile course.

Ride what you like and enjoy your time on the bike.

Me - I prefer carbon frames.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

AMG_Roadster said:


> There is certainly some truth in your statements. My example would be to look at the color schemes of bikes.
> 
> However look at all the great options available these days. There are tons of bikes available to consumers these days.
> 
> ...


I'm on a c-59. Carbon.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

They are really excellent bikes but,I don't like them for 2 reasons. They're too popular, and the Lance factor.

But what to I know, I ride Cannondales and now everyone and their dog has one.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

jlandry said:


> They are really excellent bikes but,I don't like them for 2 reasons. They're too popular, and the Lance factor.
> 
> But what to I know, I ride Cannondales and now everyone and their dog has one.


I keep waiting for a similar phenomenon to occur with Apple products.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Trek_5200 said:


> I keep waiting for a similar phenomenon to occur with Apple products.


Happened long ago. Once the news report showed people camping out for days and the quote from the fanboi "I'd buy anything that Apple made!", thinking people started disliking Apple. Apple fanbois are like crossfit dorks - they can't shut up about it. That made more people hate them (and brought Apple to the attention of hackers/malware creators.)


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> Happened long ago. Once the news report showed people camping out for days and the quote from the fanboi "I'd buy anything that Apple made!", thinking people started disliking Apple. Apple fanbois are like crossfit dorks - they can't shut up about it. That made more people hate them (and brought Apple to the attention of hackers/malware creators.)


Yo brah, why you hatin on cross-fit brah? I bet I can do more "pull-ups" than you brah.


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## gaislander (Feb 26, 2015)

stevesbike said:


> you're right it's cool to be a Trek hater. Trek is the official bike of Freds everywhere. The only good riders that have them are sponsored by them and ride because otherwise they would get sued. When a pro on a Trek pulls up to the start line, they always say something like "sorry about bringing a Trek to the race.


I am a real "Fred". Second generation actually. I wish I would have read this thread a few months ago. I would have just bought a Trek. It would have saved a lot of research and test riding before I selected and built my Trek Domane 6 Series with DA 9000. It feels, fits, and rides perfectly. It is the best bike I have had including two custom built Serottas. I am glad I lived up to being a real "Fred" for everyone.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

gaislander said:


> I am a real "Fred". Second generation actually. I wish I would have read this thread a few months ago. I would have just bought a Trek. It would have saved a lot of research and test riding before I selected and built my Trek Domane 6 Series with DA 9000. It feels, fits, and rides perfectly. It is the best bike I have had including two custom built Serottas. I am glad I lived up to being a real "Fred" for everyone.


First post here and it's all about you being butthurt and trying to brag at the same time. You might want to just go ahead and delete your account now.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> You might want to just go ahead and delete your account now.


I'm new to "this" forum but have been online since the 90s.

There is more bull sh_!t and political crap here than any forum i've been on. I click on *new posts* and only see left wing crap, right wing crap and haters.

I have yet to see anything helpful or technical and have been checking for decent content less and less each day. 

Most of the posts i've seen here are from people I would not associate in person and must have really sad lives and beat up on others to feel good about themselves. 

If my comments make you mad, then I must of hit a nerve. 

[email protected] gotta hate.

Remember, it's better to be pissed off than pissed on.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

glenn said:


> I'm new to "this" forum but have been online since the 90s.
> 
> There is more bull sh_!t and political crap here than any forum i've been on. I click on *new posts* and only see left wing crap, right wing crap and haters.
> 
> ...


Then you need to start reading some of the older posts. There's tons of useful info here on technical problem solving, new ideas, do it yourself tools and stands, links for builders and repairers, and representatives of various companies giving their opinions and tech help as well. If you don't want politics and BS, stay out of P.O. and the Lounge. If you have a tech problem ask. If it's something new or unusual, folks like Platy, Cxwrench, and MikeT who are professional wrenches or decades of wrenching experience, or somebody like Gregory Taylor, who has literally built bikes from scratch, will do their level best to help you. If you come in with 'What's a good upgrade for my pedals?' or 'What's a good bike to start with?', then yeah prepare for the massive flaming that's coming your way.

This is a great site and there's a lot of good people on it, but it's easy to get tired of trolls, or lazy fools who won't/can't use the search function to find the umteen threads on the best tubes, tires, saddles, Strava times, etc. If you're unsatisfied with what you've found, then don't come back, and leave it for those who like what it is.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

junior1210 said:


> If you don't want politics and BS, stay out of P.O. and the Lounge.


This topic is in *Forum: Bikes, Frames and Forks*. I would expect help here, but the trolls seem to rule.

Then there's this topic in *Forum: General Cycling Discussion*:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/general-cycling-discussion/lightweight-wheels-344873.html
It's started by someone with 23,000 posts.
"I want to increase my average MPH. I've been riding at an average 15 MPH and I've heard I can increase my MPH if I get lightweight wheels. My goal is to average 25MPH. Do you think I can get there if I can drop like 150 grams from my wheels?"


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

glenn said:


> This topic is in *Forum: Bikes, Frames and Forks*. I would expect help here, but the trolls seem to rule.



Seems like Trek posts/threads by Lance Proxy may need some redirection into the Political forums. 

As the the other sited, no doubt...


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

glenn said:


> This topic is in *Forum: Bikes, Frames and Forks*. I would expect help here, but the trolls seem to rule.
> 
> Then there's this topic in *Forum: General Cycling Discussion*:
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/general-cycling-discussion/lightweight-wheels-344873.html
> ...


so, being the net savvy guy you claim to be, the 23K posts was your clue it was an attempt at humor...

this site has its fair share of noise, but there's enough decent content here to satisfy a broad range of experience.

if you dislike it so much, contact the Site Admin and express your criticisms. pretty sure they'll refund your subscription fee.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

Oxtox said:


> if you dislike it so much, contact the Site Admin and express your criticisms. pretty sure they'll refund your subscription fee.


I thought of that, but figured they like it this way.

And you're right... i got what i paid for.

So even avoiding the "troll" forums won't prevent my stepping into the general BS that seems to run rampant. 

*[email protected] gotta hate.
*


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

glenn said:


> I thought of that, but figured they like it this way.
> 
> And you're right... i got what i paid for.
> 
> ...


Lighten up... and shake it off.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

Everyone loves kittens


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Troll.


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## Jackhammer (Sep 23, 2014)

ibericb said:


> Specifically, what ethical issues lead you to not liking Trek?


Destroying people who they know are telling the truth.



MMsRepBike said:


> The people that make the bike pretty strongly deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jon Swanson is a clown. "Authentic?" Also, the "tangible benefits" of both the Roubaix and the Domane have been well documented. I think it's also the seat tube that's predominantly flexing on the Domane, not the top tube.

Also the Cannondale is "completely inadequate as a performance machine."

Swanson takes a big gulp of the Giant Kool Aid. 

I'm sure the Giant is a great bike but the others suck? Whatever Jonny.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Jackhammer said:


> Destroying people who they know are telling the truth.


That pretty nebulous. Who specifically did Trek destroy that they (Trek) knew was telling the truth?


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## Jackhammer (Sep 23, 2014)

ibericb said:


> That pretty nebulous.


Only if you're an Eskimo, or live in a Tibetan monastery.




ibericb said:


> Who specifically did Trek destroy that they (Trek) knew was telling the truth?


I'm not biting.


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## Sierrarider (Feb 26, 2015)

It's not that Trek makes a bad frame, they just make a boring frame. There are soooo many way better frames out there, it amazes me how people get sucked into Trek or Specialized frames. They only look good on top of an old Volkswagen. 

De Rosa
Tommasini
Vellum Edge with
Campy Ultra Lite Carbon Ti group
ZIPP 202 wheels
Everything else carbon


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Sierrarider said:


> It's not that Trek makes a bad frame, they just make a boring frame. There are soooo many way better frames out there, it amazes me how people get sucked into Trek or Specialized frames. They only look good on top of an old Volkswagen.
> 
> De Rosa
> Tommasini
> ...



I remember when a Masi Gran Criterium (Columbus tubing) looked good on an old VW.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Jens' Trek.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

PBL450 said:


> Jens' Trek.


Eddy's.

Even though I'm not a Colnago fan, I like it better than Jens' Trek.









I was hoping to see Fabian ride one like it.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Betcha he would have had a better result with tires on.


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## glenn (Feb 17, 2015)

Sierrarider said:


> They only look good on top of an old Volkswagen.


They also look good with a old guy behind them. 









Rule # 25 The bikes on top of your car should be worth more than the car.

Fortunately my VW is worth more than my bike, so I carry it in my 2001 Civic with 240,000 miles. And it fits inside so it's well protected.


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## Chaz955i (Mar 13, 2006)

glenn said:


> They also look good with a old guy behind them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice bike!! I just ordered an Emonda but one of the lower level ones. Finally retiring my Colnago and making the leap to full carbon. I just dig bikes regardless of the name on the downtube and once the ride starts the brand is the last thing on my mind. Well that and knocking someone else's choice in bikes.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

jlandry said:


> Betcha he would have had a better result with tires on.


As formidable as Merckx was in his day, he didn't need no stinking tires.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

They make good bikes but I don't like them because:
1) Lance
2) when I was a mtb only guy I once bought a trek. The shop was primarily a road shop and they snooted us knobbies. 
3) everybody else has one
4) the bogus made in the USA claim many make. (roughly 10% actually are)
5) I just don't like them
6) did I mention that my wife's previous boyfriend owned the trek shop I hated? (true story but I never knew her until well after he sold it and moved)


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Shuffleman said:


> They make good bikes but I don't like them because:
> ...
> 4) the bogus made in the USA claim many make. (roughly 10% actually are)
> ...


You're off (high) by about a factor of 10 (by Trek's own statements).


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Oxtox said:


> I don't hate them. I just don't want one.


Same here. Actually, it's not the bikes, it's the company. I haven't liked the company's "style" since the first time I encountered a bike with the stupid name "Trek" in the late 70s which to my mind, at the time, was the bicycle equivalent of all the cynical groovy,free, natural marketing being done at that time. Mother Earth News. Herbal Essence Shampoo. Trek bicycles. Also, compared to other bikes, they had absolutely no aesthetic style. 

Decent enough bikes, though, I've come to understand, well-liked by Trek vintage affectionados.

The modern bikes are just fine, no functional reason not to own one if you like the bike, the brand and the service. But people often mistake brand presence and popularity with quality. They're fine, but no better, but sometimes worse, than almost any alternative at the same or less price point. 

So mostly, I have a strong bias against the company, largely irrational no doubt. I'm also pissed that they reaped the rewards of the whole Lance Armstrong thing, buried the Lemond brand and now won't realize any of the fallout from Lance's true colors.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

ibericb said:


> You're off (high) by about a factor of 10 (by Trek's own statements).


I assume you mean that I am off as in they make less than 10% of their bikes in the USA. If so, than you are correct. I was simply speaking in generic terms. I am well aware that the actual figure is much lower.
Personally, I do not care where a bike is made. Trek makes quality bikes regardless of if they are made in China or elsewhere. I am simply turned off by those that claim that they buy Trek because they are made in the USA and are so adamant about it. 
Again, I don't dispute that Trek makes excellent bikes. I simply do not like them and one of the reasons why is those that constantly harp about the things that I previously mentioned. I despise Cannondale for a similar reason. For whatever reason, there seems to be a cult like attitude about them. I do not find their welds any better. They are owned by the same company that owns GT. It breaks my heart what they did to GT but the damage was done. Luckily Cannondale has not gone down that road. Either way, I do not like them.
Most big name bikes are excellent. I just like the ones that are not everywhere. I like the differences in paint and look.
Colnago, Pinarello, Masi, Focus, Boardman, Cube, Canyon, Ghost, LaPierre, Scott, Ridley, Wilier, BMC, Look, Time, Bianchi, Parlee, Moots, 7, Klein, De Rosa, Merckx, Felt, Marin, Kona, Litespeed, Orbea, Neil Pryde, and even Fuji get me excited. I am sure that I missed a few but it sure would be great to see more of my list than the same thing every day.
If I ride with 30 riders, Giant and Trek will make up 22-28 of them. Granted, there is only one shop in my town and that is what they sell.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

PBL450 said:


> Jens' Trek.


Those Germans love to use the F word. When I lived there they used it like we say damn.

Since this thread is headed down the path of the Bikes Direct arena here's a german rhyme on topic:
Trek ist dreck


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Shuffleman said:


> I just like the ones that are not everywhere. I like the differences in paint and look.
> Colnago, Pinarello, Masi, Focus, Boardman, Cube, Canyon,* Ghost*, LaPierre, Scott, Ridley, Wilier, BMC, Look, Time, Bianchi, Parlee, Moots, 7, Klein, De Rosa, Merckx, Felt, Marin, Kona, Litespeed, Orbea, Neil Pryde, and even Fuji get me excited. I am sure that I missed a few but it sure would be great to see more of my list than the same thing every day.
> If I ride with 30 riders, Giant and Trek will make up 22-28 of them. Granted, there is only one shop in my town and that is what they sell.


Ghost is now sold exclusively by REI in the states. Expect them to become ubiquitous.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Ghost is now sold exclusively by REI in the states. Expect them to become ubiquitous.


Hasn't anyone told them about the negative connotations? 









Ghost Bikes | ghost bikes


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> Ghost is now sold exclusively by REI in the states. Expect them to become ubiquitous.


It is only a few of the REI's that sell them. I have no problem with that. They have similar arrangements with Scott and Cannondale as well. Personally, I would like to see more of them around. I like the look. I would not buy one but I like them.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Shuffleman said:


> It is only a few of the REI's that sell them. I have no problem with that. They have similar arrangements with Scott and Cannondale as well. Personally, I would like to see more of them around. I like the look. I would not buy one but I like them.


"SEATTLE (BRAIN) — REI now has Ghost bikes available at its stores and its website.

The Seattle-based co-op announced last year that it would become the exclusive U.S. retailer for the German-based brand, which is owned by Accell Group NV. Accell also owns Raleigh, Diamondback, Torker, Currie, Redline and SBS in the U.S. and has brought in European brands Haibike and Lapierre to the U.S."


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I will never own another Trek again. Not because of their bikes...those are good. I won't ever buy one for what they did to Greg LeMond and LeMond bikes. Their business practices are ruthless, but so are Specialized and I would consider them. Never had a bad experience with any of the Treks I've owned.. and I've owned eight since 1987. They never apologized to Greg and turned out that Greg was right about Lance. I don't


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

terbennett said:


> I will never own another Trek again. Not because of their bikes...those are good. I won't ever buy one for what they did to Greg LeMond and LeMond bikes.



FIRST; Lemonds net worth is now 40 million space bucks!

Second: Your post mades me think of the scene from the movie 'A Bronx Tale' when Chazz Palminteri sez to a young 'Calogero 'C' Anello' regarding Lemond, eerr.. I mean Micky Mantel.


Sonny: "Mickey Mantle? Is that what you're upset about? Mickey Mantle makes $100,000 a year. How much does your father make? You don't know? Well, see if your father can't pay the rent go ask Mickey Mantle and see what he tells you. Mickey Mantle don't care about you, so why should you care about him? Nobody cares. 

Lorenzo: He tried to throw away his baseball cards because he said Mickey Mantle will never pay the rent. 

I threw away my Trek cards in 1998 because of a lack of Klein paint issue being addressed which made me know they did not care if me and my family bought their products anymore. And I/we do not, there!

Lemond, fook him in the scheme of things is the way I look it. Just another picture painting rich douche from my saddle. I'm not bitter. ;O

I am just waiting for the video where either Lemond or Lance is pissing on the grave on the one that leaves life first. 

Please don't take my attempts at humor badly.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

terbennett said:


> I will never own another Trek again. Not because of their bikes...those are good. I won't ever buy one for what they did to Greg LeMond and LeMond bikes. Their business practices are ruthless, but so are Specialized and I would consider them. Never had a bad experience with any of the Treks I've owned.. and I've owned eight since 1987. They never apologized to Greg and turned out that Greg was right about Lance. I don't


This may spin things off a little bit but I am curious. Trek and LeMond had their fallout over his comments about Lance, who was the face of Trek and put them where they are today. Do you think that Trek knew and deliberately set out to deceive people by siding with him?


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## gaislander (Feb 26, 2015)

I think Shuffleman may have some non-cycling history with Trek.

I do think he makes an excellent point about did Trek know what was going on.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

In the past I have owned a Trek 5200 and 5500 and rode them over a 20 years span. They were great bikes. I now ride a Specialized Tarmac SL3 and have no interest in ever buying another Trek. But I am wondering what are all these bikes people mention that a better than Trek or Specialized? They say they exist but then fail to say what they are, what is point of that? Although I don't like Trek or Specialized as a company they have the experience, sales volume, and R&D capability beyond most other companies to produce a superior product. I think Specialized in particular does a good job with R&D. One bike that does interest me is Canyon mostly because Purito and Valverde are paid to ride them and get results, wish there was a way to test ride one.


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## AMG_Roadster (Sep 26, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> I'm on a c-59. Carbon.


I just upgraded to a Willier Zero.7


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

frisbie17 said:


> Lot of people on here really do not like Trek Bikes. Just wondering why? Post intelligent comments please with facts about the bikes. Not looking for "Because they suck comments".
> 
> Thanks


I don't hate bikes, just people.


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## syraleo (Jun 1, 2010)

my 2 cents.

When i was younger, i had a Trek hardtail, super light, accelerates fast, simply an awesome bike.

Been a Trek fan boy since, bought a Trek Remedy and Trek roadie, both awesome too. 

Fast forward to today when i actually have to pay out of my pocket for a bike, I have found that their bikes are expensive just because of branding just like Specialized. I don't see anything special and when their shops charge me ~3.7k (sing dollars) for a bike with XT parts, screw them. 

Merida and Giant will easily sell me a full XT grp mountain bike of similar use (trail) for much less and those 2 brands aren't some random unknown manufacturers either. Merida has a full XT trail bike for 2k (sing dollars) and Giant has one for slightly over 2.2k if i remember correctly.

Trek shops are ridiculously overpriced, I got my rear derailleur HOUSING, note just the HOUSING changed for a shifting issue and was charged 24-ish. and my shifting issue is still there.

went to a LBS nearby, nothing fancy, messy store but the dude fixed the shifting for 2 bucks. (i've since learnt how to build a bike on my own)

I like Trek, but their bikes are not worth the prices they're charging and their dealers better wise up and stop thinking that Trek is some ultra high end luxury bike brand, acting all snobby, sucking up to customers who they "think" have cash.

Last i checked, they're losing everything, no big names in road races other than Cancellara, DH race is gone when they lost Aaron Gwin, Trail races are a joke.

Big prices with nothing to show for.

At least Specialized can "back" their marketing with race results.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Please show me a direct, bike-for-bike comparison (similar frame material, components, etc.) that shows how much more they cost than Specialized, Giant, Cannondale, etc.

I have seen this claim many times and each time I see it, there is no more than abut 5% difference. Please exclude rider-direct brands like Canyon and YT since they follow a completely different distribution model that is not accurately comparable.


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## syraleo (Jun 1, 2010)

The last time i was looking for a mtb, it was 2012.

I dont remember the prices quoted by bike shops now but here's a comparison you can make yourself.

I bought my 2012 Giant XTC 2 at 1600 SGD, singapore dollars, that's roughly 1.1k USD. I bought this bike way back in 2012 though, when it was "new".

It comes with XT parts, SLX brakes and Giant OEM wheels.

In that same year, I saw a Specialized Stumpjumper with SLX/Deore parts, 3.2k SGD, which is ~2.3k USD.

I did call to check Trek's prices, the Fuel EX (not a fair comparison since its a full suspension) 5-6-7 in 2012 were around 2.8k-3.3k SGD? X5 parts? Dont remember.

The Fuel EX 8 jumped to X9 parts, but costs 3.8k SGD.

I know Treks costs more because I was shopping for bikes back in 2012, I didn't come to this conclusion by reading the internet.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

Chader09 said:


> Please show me a direct, bike-for-bike comparison (similar frame material, components, etc.) that shows how much more they cost than Specialized, Giant, Cannondale, etc.
> 
> I have seen this claim many times and each time I see it, there is no more than abut 5% difference. Please exclude rider-direct brands like Canyon and YT since they follow a completely different distribution model that is not accurately comparable.


In fairness there is a perception that Trek is more expensive and that may depend on multiple factors. One being the shop itself, the number of shops around, and lastly the demand for a particular bike. In my experience shops tend to deal a little more on some bikes than others. Some shops are simply more aggressive than others. 
In my area, it seems like Specialized is more expensive or deals less.
In the end most bikes with similiar specs seem to be priced in the same arena. Although I will agree that Giant seems to offer more than the others for the price.
I recently bought a Giant 29er for two reasons--1) My LBS sells Giant and Trek and I wanted to buy from him. 2) The Giant was the better deal.
I think that Trek is a fine bike but I despise them so that was not an option. Giant was not in my top choices but I wanted to support my friend's shop.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

syraleo said:


> The last time i was looking for a mtb, it was 2012.
> 
> I dont remember the prices quoted by bike shops now but here's a comparison you can make yourself.
> 
> ...


Well, vague recollections from 3 years ago are hardly evidence. Pricing is not static and some things that were less expensive go up and the opposite happens. Applying an old observation to companies without re-evaluating the situation ignores the fact that things tend to change over time.

Not to mention that your comparison was very poor. You were comparing two hardtails to several full suspensions bikes from Trek. That observation adds no useful information to the discussion whatsoever. Of course the dualies will cost more assuming you looked at similar part specs. You would need to look at apples-apples unlike what you did.

How about a current comparison between the same style of bike?

Giant XTC Advanced 29er 1, $2700, Carbon HT, SLX/XT build, Fox Evo fork
XTC Advanced 29er 1 (2015) | Giant Bicycles | United States

Specialized Stumpjumper Comp Carbon 29, $2800, Carbon HT, SLX/XT build, Rockshox Reba RL fork
Specialized Bicycle Components

Trek Superfly 9.6 (29), $2500, Carbon HT, Deore/X7/XT build, Rockshox Reba RL fork
Superfly 9.6 - Trek Bicycle

Trek Superfly 9.7 (29), $3040, Carbon HT, SLX/XT build, Fox Evo fork
Superfly 9.7 - Trek Bicycle

Slight differences between each build, but they are all very close in bang for buck ratio. The Trek brackets on either side of Giant and Specialized.

This has been my experience in nearly every category of bike I have checked. When you look at only one bike, you may see a bigger jump. But when you look at the entire range, they are all very close.

So, the blatant claim that one is significantly more or less expensive is completely wrong IMHO.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Shuffleman said:


> In fairness there is a perception that Trek is more expensive and that may depend on multiple factors. One being the shop itself, the number of shops around, and lastly the demand for a particular bike. In my experience shops tend to deal a little more on some bikes than others. Some shops are simply more aggressive than others.
> In my area, it seems like Specialized is more expensive or deals less.
> In the end most bikes with similiar specs seem to be priced in the same arena. Although I will agree that Giant seems to offer more than the others for the price.
> I recently bought a Giant 29er for two reasons--1) My LBS sells Giant and Trek and I wanted to buy from him. 2) The Giant was the better deal.
> I think that Trek is a fine bike but I despise them so that was not an option. Giant was not in my top choices but I wanted to support my friend's shop.


That is my whole point. Perception is just that, perception. When you actually compare MSRP between similar bike types and specifications, they are usually very close. That is the most practical and consistent value to review.

When you factor in specific shops, that throws the comparisons off kilter. One shop may be willing to deal while the other won't. That doesn't necessarily mean Trek or Specialized is more expensive. That dealer may just be taking less margin on the sale for any reason.

They large companies are in tight battles for market share and can't afford to price themselves too high if they don't have a factor (tangible or otherwise) to "justify" the additional expense.

Trek, Specialized & Giant all have a huge line of bikes, great engineering and manufacturing capabilities. Neither has a significant edge over the other. That leads to competitive pricing and similar offerings in the marketplace.

I just dislike when people make broad generalizations based on one model or specific experience. It may well be true in that case, but the overall picture is much closer than most people want to acknowledge.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

Chader09 said:


> Well, vague recollections from 3 years ago are hardly evidence. Pricing is not static and some things that were less expensive go up and the opposite happens. Applying an old observation to companies without re-evaluating the situation ignores the fact that things tend to change over time.
> 
> Not to mention that your comparison was very poor. You were comparing two hardtails to several full suspensions bikes from Trek. That observation adds no useful information to the discussion whatsoever. Of course the dualies will cost more assuming you looked at similar part specs. You would need to look at apples-apples unlike what you did.
> 
> ...


Your evidence puts the Specialized and Trek in the same boat. If you compare the Trek with the Fox shock to the Giant with the Fox shock, you have a $300 spread. All things equal that is a nice savings for the Giant
(For the record-I am in the camp that thinks most comparably spec'd bikes are roughly the same price).
As I write this, I think that there is one point to clarify. There are brands that are good but sell through the discounters that are less than Trek, Specialized and etc.
For example we can get GT, Kestrel, Focus, Airborne, Fuji and a few others for less. Often times, the devils are in the details like FSA cranks instead of Shimano, Campy or SRAMM. These are still great bikes and they do sell for less than Trek, Specialized and etc. They just do not carry the same cred with bike snobs.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Shuffleman said:


> Your evidence puts the Specialized and Trek in the same boat. If you compare the Trek with the Fox shock to the Giant with the Fox shock, you have a $300 spread. All things equal that is a nice savings for the Giant
> (For the record-I am in the camp that thinks most comparably spec'd bikes are roughly the same price).
> As I write this, I think that there is one point to clarify. There are brands that are good but sell through the discounters that are less than Trek, Specialized and etc.
> For example we can get GT, Kestrel, Focus, Airborne, Fuji and a few others for less. Often times, the devils are in the details like FSA cranks instead of Shimano, Campy or SRAMM. These are still great bikes and they do sell for less than Trek, Specialized and etc. They just do not carry the same cred with bike snobs.


Agreed, this example appears to lean towards Giant. I chose this example somewhat at random because the prior commentor was looking at HT's. 

However, I didn't dig any deeper into the comparison beyond the quick high level parts. Sometimes, the crank/cassette/wheelset differences justify the differences in price. That may or may not be the case here. But I don't care about these bikes enough to look that deeply.

OTOH, I have done deeper comparisons on other FS trail & AM bikes that all match very closely between the three brands. As I said, some examples will appear better for one brand than the other, but rarely will it be the same across all models and bike types.

Yes, those "off" brands may appear less expensive, but they differ as you noted. Additionally, some may not offer IBD support that is of value to many riders. Again, not exactly apples-apples. 

Those comparisons are fine as long as the person is willing to recognize the difference and live with any compromises.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

It's funny because I had almost the same discussion a month ago over on MTBR forums. One guy insisted that Trek was crazy expensive. But every bike he tried to point out as too much $, I found similar specs and prices from the brands he claimed were better.

That was DH and AM bikes, but the results were all close enough that $ didn't matter as much as the tangible differences in design, geometry, and such.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

Chader09 said:


> It's funny because I had almost the same discussion a month ago over on MTBR forums. One guy insisted that Trek was crazy expensive. But every bike he tried to point out as too much $, I found similar specs and prices from the brands he claimed were better.
> 
> That was DH and AM bikes, but the results were all close enough that $ didn't matter as much as the tangible differences in design, geometry, and such.


You are not going to change people's perceptions. They may be valid at times based on their experience or just in their head. In my experience shop prices vary depending upon what they have in stock and what they have to order. Outside of that it is simply a matter of some shops being a little more aggressive. It is pretty rare that there is a major flux between bikes of similar specs. My bike is full Campy throughout. I can find it for less with a mix match of components but it is not the same. I have seen many "Ultegra" bikes that go the same way. Full Ultegra is not the same as Ultegra mixed with FSA and etc. Some people simply do not understand that.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Since when is Trek considered an expensive brand? Where I'm from they're considered the cheapest major brand. Maybe it's because there's a lot of dealers and competition, but they're not pricey.


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## syraleo (Jun 1, 2010)

When i did my comparison, i had more bikes and models to compare across the board and the Giant came out cheaper by several hundred bucks.

I only listed those that i can recall, maybe for you if you look online, there's not much of a price difference but when I go to the shops, not including those on sale, part for part, Giant/Merida will always be cheaper.

I'm really not in to proving myself right on the internet, but if you can find Trek/Specialized that is just 5% more expensive, good for you, because in my country, i can't.


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## little_shoe (Apr 18, 2008)

Nice Rungu there. Looks like I just got there after you left. Here's Mine.


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## CampyScotland (Jun 2, 2016)

Had two and not sure if I'd have another one, although the new madden is nice. Originally had a Madone 6.9SSL LeopardTrek edition and it was superb until I had a crash and it was split in two  Got replacement from a local trek dealer but was a 5.9 with the direct mount brakes, thought the breaks were awful and because I use campag, couldn't find suitable replacements. I ended up selling the bike and buying a Fondriest instead.

My late Grandad loved Trek, he owned 4. He had an old Madone that was 17 years old that developed a crack above the bottom bracket and Trek replaced it free of charge for being a loyal customer.


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## smokersteve (May 22, 2016)

I love my 2013 Trek Domane 5.2
I'm guessing guys that I ride with don't like it because all they ever see is my rear end


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

So people don't want to ride treks because everyone does and you want to be different. Grow up, seriously.


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

Trek bikes have no soul


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

jaggrin said:


> Trek bikes have no soul


Subjective opinion..

What bikes do have soul?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

davidka said:


> Subjective opinion..
> 
> What bikes do have soul?


It says something about that on the down tubes of these bikes..

Soulcraft - Top Notch Bicycle Frames - Petaluma, CA - Mountain, Road, Cyclocross, Singlespeed, 29er


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

davidka said:


> Subjective opinion..
> 
> What bikes do have soul?


DeRosa, Cinelli, Masi, Colnago, Pinarello, and many others had soul back when guys in love with bikes were brazing them up in the 70-80s. Italians have a rich road cycling culture based on 100 years of racing. American are more "practical." Freewheeling too, because we have a very different cycling history. Italians build bikes and cars to efficiently handle the twisty old roads in Europe. Americans build luxury cruisers. Comparing a Colnago to a Madone is like comparing a Ferrari to a Shelby Mustang, or a Ducati to a Harley. Soul is the entire repertoire a given bike has, the more complex, the more subtlleties designed into the frame, the more soul. You can appreciate the bike's soul only after spending some time on it.

The folks who started Trek were Americans, new to the game of road biking. They were copying the custom builders in Europe, but also had a practical appreciation of what Americans wanted, all purpose bikes suitable for club rides, events, and getting to work. That's their soul, kind of like Ford cars. Took them 15 years to get into pro racing.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Italians had the edge on everything in the 40s-80s. They lost their edge on Soul by about 1995. Campy has been stabbing in the dark to try and keep up for 20 years now and the frame makers make great plastic that is nearly indistinguishable from the competitors.

American bikes are not crude and sloppy like a Mustang. Maybe they are bland and fast like a Corvette, or really ultra advanced like a Tesla, and yet they are at the pinnacle of performance today. Unlike a Mustang.

Not that I dislike Italian bikes. Given identically equipped bikes that fit and cost the same, put a trek a spec and a Bianchi or Wilier plastic bike for me to choose and I imagine I would ever so slightly prefer the Italian ones. but not because I expect any edge from them, just prettier names. Like how little girls pick out stickers to put on their lunch boxes.

(as is happened, I bought a Spec because it was the first one that came up in my size on the local classifieds for a great price. The name on the frame had little to do with it)


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

My rationale is simple. Words.

Madone
Domane
Emonda

All anagrams of Daemon... which as we all know is an archaic form of the word Demon.

So, buy a Trek... for the exorcise... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Opus51569 said:


> My rationale is simple. Words.
> 
> Madone
> Domane
> ...


Hop on that Trek and get on the Highway to Hell.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I think Trek was a different brand when the bikes had English threaded bottom brackets and the majority of their bikes were built in the U.S. These days I prefer Colnago C-line bikes and Titanium road bikes built by the likes of Firefly and Seven.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

jaggrin said:


> Trek bikes have no soul


My Farley does.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Italians had the edge on everything in the 40s-80s. They lost their edge on Soul by about 1995. Campy has been stabbing in the dark to try and keep up for 20 years now and the frame makers make great plastic that is nearly indistinguishable from the competitors.
> 
> American bikes are not crude and sloppy like a Mustang. Maybe they are bland and fast like a Corvette, or really ultra advanced like a Tesla, and yet they are at the pinnacle of performance today. Unlike a Mustang.
> 
> ...


Well, ok. But bland does not equal great performance, does it?  Bland does define the kind of soul most American bikes/cars present, though. Maybe designers are finally figuring it out, but Deetroit came in late with small, responsive cars with 4 wheel disc brakes and independent suspensions, 4 wheel drive, the things that give European cars soul. Also Colnago and DeRosa have their carbon tubing made in China, but they build their bikes same as before, with lugs and glue, so they can get the geometries right. They shied away from monocoque frames which severely limit geometry options. Ain't no soul in that. :frown2:

Specialized and Cannondale went into pro racing sooner than Trek. IMO, S Works and Synapses reputedly have a little soul, yeah like Corvettes. Hey, Shelby Mustangs are going for big bucks at auction! Then again, so are those POS Chevvys the Mexicans use as jumping cars.

Also hearing Campy has made a comeback, if they ever lost it. Their stuff gets all the details down pat and its all user serviceable. Can't say that about Sh!tmano, and SRAM is its own niche market, also very American, light weight, practical stuff, perhaps lacking the subtleties of Campy and therefore its soul.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

I like bikes that have person's or location's name on them. Why? No reason. I dislike bike brands that are named strictly for marketing purposes.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Camilo said:


> I don't know from "soul" but I remember back in the day - 70s - when the high end, fairly well-known, covet-able bikes were French, Italian and British and a couple of high end American names both manufactured and cutom. I think a lot of the mystique and lasting "soul" came from the fact they had someone's name on them, or at least a place name. Even Schwinn. "Trek" - the company started out as a marketing of image brand, pure and simple. Nobody's name, no place name where it came from, just a marketing brand name based on the 70s US youth culture. Mother Earth News, Whole Earth Catalogue, Herbal Essence shampoo, Trek bikes. The name played to the youth culture to take you on that Trek of self discovery and/or back to nature.
> 
> I don't hate Trek bikes, and even own one because it suited my needs (a used tandem picked up locally). But I have that first and lasting impression (possibly erroneous, possibly irrational -hey I know myself), but still don't like the image and style of their brand, even though it's really no different than Specialized and Giant in any respect. They haven't done anything to change my mind with their marketing of Trek stores, with nothing but Trek and Bontrager accessories. I know it's just business and they're very good at marketing and product development, like Apple - just not better than anyone else in terms of quality or value, so I'm glad there are alternatives.


Yes, Trek came in during the bike boom following OPEC oil shortages and cars lining up a block long at gas stations. Biking was the perfect remedy, especially for boomers, just starting to get fat and taking up aerobic exercise, running being a big one. Ecological awareness came along with the package. The original Trek builders were ideologues, like most other American builders at the time, fighting the scourge of pollution, gridlock and showing the way. 

I guess this holier than thou attitude if you will, still informs their current marketing strategy, and customers see through that to their insistence on exclusivity, i.e. greed. They've got great bikes at all price points, but buyers are turned off by their arrogance, with their accessories and clothing, too! :frown2: Power corrupts. They're acting like General Motors.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Fredrico said:


> .
> 
> I guess this holier than thou attitude if you will, still informs their current marketing strategy, and customers see through that to their insistence on exclusivity, i.e. greed. They've got great bikes at all price points, but buyers are turned off by their arrogance, with their accessories and clothing, too! :frown2: Power corrupts. They're acting like General Motors.


You got all of that from their marketing persona? That's some powerful kool-aid. Marketing was always something I thought they were weak at.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

davidka said:


> You got all of that from their marketing persona? That's some powerful kool-aid. Marketing was always something I thought they were weak at.


Reputations change over the years, but Trek started at the same time Star Trek was hitting the charts, there was that oil shock in the mid 70s, a best selling book on how we better get our sh!t together and clean up our nest, baby boomers were in their late 20s and getting out of shape, running was becoming very popular. 

Put all those together and you have a bunch of idealists who want to save the world. They offer a line of well engineered, do everything bikes, that gain respect in the burgeoning bike community. You're right, they don't do aggressive marketing. That wouldn't be priestly. They sit back, smile condescendly. "Yes, my friend! This bike will endow you with fitness and health, being at one with the world, sweetness and light!" Trek didn't enter the racing game until the 90s. 

Trekkies, anybody remember them? They were nerdy guys with pony tails, blue jeans and t shirts, hugged trees, ate granola, watched Star Trek, and rode Trek bikes. Kind of like Prius owners today, like, "I'm the solution to the problem and you're not."

Trek may finally be shaking that image, ironically thanks to Lance Armstrong. Their current good stuff is reputedly really awesome. Their cheap stuff has been sensible and reliable over the years, earning them customer loyalty.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Good lord... the Star Trek television series ran from '66-69, while Trek did not open their doors until 1976 - so they did not appear at the same time as the television series was hitting the charts. While there may be a lot of good reasons to dislike Trek, yours is one of the silliest - and is rather off-base.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

bradkay said:


> Good lord... the Star Trek television series ran from '66-69, while Trek did not open their doors until 1976 - so they did not appear at the same time as the television series was hitting the charts. While there may be a lot of good reasons to dislike Trek, yours is one of the silliest - and is rather off-base.


You never heard the term "Trekkies," taken from Star Trek fans, applied to Trek owners? Must have been a local Washington, DC, thing. 

I'm not making this up. TV stations were running reruns of the Star Trek episodes throughout the 70s, anyway. It was a marriage made in heaven.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> DeRosa, Cinelli, Masi, Colnago, Pinarello, and many others had soul back when guys in love with bikes were brazing them up in the 70-80s. Italians have a rich road cycling culture based on 100 years of racing. American are more "practical." Freewheeling too, because we have a very different cycling history. Italians build bikes and cars to efficiently handle the twisty old roads in Europe. Americans build luxury cruisers. Comparing a Colnago to a Madone is like comparing a Ferrari to a Shelby Mustang, or a Ducati to a Harley. Soul is the entire repertoire a given bike has, the more complex, the more subtlleties designed into the frame, the more soul. You can appreciate the bike's soul only after spending some time on it.
> 
> The folks who started Trek were Americans, new to the game of road biking. They were copying the custom builders in Europe, but also had a practical appreciation of what Americans wanted, all purpose bikes suitable for club rides, events, and getting to work. That's their soul, kind of like Ford cars. Took them 15 years to get into pro racing.


Umm, Shelby managed to kick Ferrari's azz...granted, not the Mustang version.










I would struggle choosing between the soul of these two:









I spend more time on my Domane than my Time.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> I would struggle choosing between the soul of these two:


The only choice I see is blue.

That Caroll Shelby sure new how to put a car together.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Umm, Shelby managed to kick Ferrari's azz...granted, not the Mustang version.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's interesting. Why do you prefer the Domane over the Time? I'd guess the Domane has better shock absorption characteristics and has understeer rather than oversteer, each bike meeting the different requirements of European stage racing and American club rides/events?

The two cars pictured: The Ferrari is aerodynamic. It'll cut through the wall of air slicker and probably get up to higher speeds than the cute go kart Shelby AC, sure footed on those huge wheels, but with all kinds of air turbulence around front fenders, and windshield. This shows the difference between what Americans do with cars and Europeans do with cars. Same with bikes. Americans race on oval tracks. Europeans race on roads laid down in horse and buggy days.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> The two cars pictured: The Ferrari is aerodynamic. It'll cut through the wall of air slicker and probably get up to higher speeds than the cute go kart Shelby AC, sure footed on those huge wheels, but with all kinds of air turbulence around front fenders, and windshield. This shows the difference between what Americans do with cars and Europeans do with cars. Same with bikes.


Did you notice the 1st black and white photo?

Then there's this


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> Did you notice the 1st black and white photo?
> 
> Then there's this
> 
> View attachment 314508


Just a wild guess: is that a Ferrari? If not, Shelby did a good imitation. Confirms my point. See how they covered the headlights to scrub off wind resistance, put the front wheels out front to fore-aft balance the car? American "muscle cars" may finally be catching up. The drag race and NASCAR mentality is holding them back.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> Just a wild guess: is that a Ferrari?


 Do you really not know what that is or are you J/K?

Cobra (Daytona) coupe. Exact same Cobra chassis with new bodywork that gave it something like 40+ MPH higher top speed. Six were made and a few years ago one auctioned for the highest price ever paid for an automobile.

It was incredible being a car-crazy teenager in the '60s!

Edit: And BTW, I love my Trek!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Randy99CL said:


> Do you really not know what that is or are you J/K?
> 
> Cobra (Daytona) coupe. Exact same Cobra chassis with new bodywork that gave it something like 40+ MPH higher top speed. Six were made and a few years ago one auctioned for the highest price ever paid for an automobile.
> 
> ...


Sure is a good COPY of a Ferrari. Aerodynamics! 40 mph faster! How about that! 

I was a snotty kid growing up on LI, NY. One acquaintance drove a Jaguar XK to school. There were MGs and Austin Healy Sprites in the parking lot. This was in the late Fifties, though, before muscle cars. My first car, bought with the spoils of war in '69, was an Austin Healy 3000 MKII. Inline six, long stroke engine same as used in London taxi cabs, fired up with 3 SU carbs, wire spoked wheels, 6 inches off the ground. Fellow soldiers driving GTOs and Shelby Mustangs laughed at it. I thought it was cool. It handled like that AC Cobra pictured above.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Funny thing about Ferrari in their heyday, they had an affinity for naming their cars after places in the US. I guess they thought soul was across the Atlantic. 

As for comparing a Madone to a Mustang or Harley? You have not ridden one. It is now the road bike by which all others are measured today. No superfluous design elements and yet full of features and details that contribute to what it ultimately is, from a bunch of Midwesterners out in the middle of Dairyland.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

davidka said:


> Funny thing about Ferrari in their heyday, they had an affinity for naming their cars after places in the US. I guess they thought soul was across the Atlantic.
> 
> As for comparing a Madone to a Mustang or Harley? You have not ridden one. It is now the road bike by which all others are measured today. No superfluous design elements and yet full of features and details that contribute to what it ultimately is, from a bunch of Midwesterners out in the middle of Dairyland.


Hey, they started right and got it down! They're just a bit too caught up in themselves, like Prius owners. 

I'd luv to ride a Madone or Emonda. Torsional rigidity, shock absorption, comfort, have been dialed in since the early carbon days back in the 90s. But how does that Trek feed the soul? Different cycling cultures. Italian opera vs. American rock and roll. 

And don't mean to downgrade Midwesterners. My people. They've invented most of the stuff that made us what we are: cars, electronics, you name it. Our writers and artists are mostly from the Midwest. No name guys from little towns in the heartland pulled it together and lead the world out of WW2. The Midwest is as American as apple pie.

Ferrari used American names no doubt to flirt with the huge American market. European cars marketed in the US have always had names that they imagined would appeal to American buyers. Of course "Spyder" no doubt carries different connotations with Italians than with Americans. The Germans play it safe with abstract letters and numbers, like A6, or E400.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> That's interesting. Why do you prefer the Domane over the Time? I'd guess the Domane has better shock absorption characteristics and has understeer rather than oversteer, each bike meeting the different requirements of European stage racing and American club rides/events?
> 
> The two cars pictured: The Ferrari is aerodynamic. It'll cut through the wall of air slicker and probably get up to higher speeds than the cute go kart Shelby AC, sure footed on those huge wheels, but with all kinds of air turbulence around front fenders, and windshield. This shows the difference between what Americans do with cars and Europeans do with cars. Same with bikes. Americans race on oval tracks. Europeans race on roads laid down in horse and buggy days.


The Time is a 2006 VXS, so their Paris/Roubaix model. It is pretty comfortable, just not as comfortable as the Domane. I find the handling to be similar. I do find the Domane to be more responsive going up hills. 

As far as the Cobra vs Daytona Spyder goes, top speed was 165 for a Cobra in standard configuration and 185 mph as a competition model vs 174 mph for the Ferrari. 0-60 was not even close, 4.3 vs 5.4 seconds. Not bad for an older design. By the way, the body on the pictured Ferrari was done by Pininfarina. 

I have not had the pleasure to ride in either, but I did ride in a Superformance Cobra powered by a 427. It was beast. The power and sound was incredible.

In high school one of my buddies had a '66 GT350 (circa 1980). One night we spoke with an older gent in his XKE. His comment was "Geez, those things are pretty fast aren't they?" We just smiled and said "ah, yep"...as we had gotten a ticket a little earlier that evening for an ill advised smokey burn out.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> The Time is a 2006 VXS, so their Paris/Roubaix model. It is pretty comfortable, just not as comfortable as the Domane. I find the handling to be similar. I do find the Domane to be more responsive going up hills.
> 
> As far as the Cobra vs Daytona Spyder goes, top speed was 165 for a Cobra in standard configuration and 185 mph as a competition model vs 174 mph for the Ferrari. 0-60 was not even close, 4.3 vs 5.4 seconds. Not bad for an older design. By the way, the body on the pictured Ferrari was done by Pininfarina.
> 
> ...


Despite the name, blue, i've always thought you were a rubber burnin' *******! 

Yeah, well, Americans always lacked the finesse of the Italians.  The Ferrari had a higher top speed due to its aerodynamics, although it was under powered compared to the AC and off the line it wasn't all that great. That AC was all engine. No wonder it did 60 in 4 seconds! But which car would you rather race across the country as if you owned the road?

The Domane is more comfortable and climbs better? Kudos to Trek bikes. M. Ferrari would approve.


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## Sierrarider (Feb 26, 2015)

*Trek or not to Trek*



frisbie17 said:


> Lot of people on here really do not like Trek Bikes. Just wondering why? Post intelligent comments please with facts about the bikes. Not looking for "Because they suck comments".
> 
> Thanks


With all the other bike companies out there, why buy a mass produced frame like Trek or Specialized. Been riding for over 35 years on De Rosa's and Tomasinni's and now have a Vellum Edge and would never buy a Trek or Specialize, not because they are junk, they are just boring. Most bike shops push Trek or Spec because that's where the profit is if they sell enough of them. Get on a high end bike that actually took some brains and talent to make and one will never look back, and yes, you will have to bite the bullet and spend more, but it is well worth it. 
Vellum Edge-Campy carbon ti components-Zipp 202's - 16 lbs
29er - all carbon - 23 lbs
DeRosa - all campy
Tomasinni - Dura Ace


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Sierrarider said:


> With all the other bike companies out there, why buy a mass produced frame like Trek or Specialized. Been riding for over 35 years on De Rosa's and Tomasinni's and now have a Vellum Edge and would never buy a Trek or Specialize, not because they are junk, they are just boring. Most bike shops push Trek or Spec because that's where the profit is if they sell enough of them. *Get on a high end bike that actually took some brains and talent to make and one will never look back, and yes, you will have to bite the bullet and spend more, but it is well worth it. *
> Vellum Edge-Campy carbon ti components-Zipp 202's - 16 lbs
> 29er - all carbon - 23 lbs
> DeRosa - all campy
> Tomasinni - Dura Ace


I beg to disagree. The high end bikes from Spec & Trek (Tarmac, Roubaix, Emonda, Domane, etc.) are awesome bikes and took plenty of brains and talent to make. Several offer great features the equal or better those from other builders, regardless of their size.

Can you actually state a quantifiable difference that would justify the larger prices you would pay for the other bikes?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Chader09 said:


> I beg to disagree. The high end bikes from Spec & Trek (Tarmac, Roubaix, Emonda, Domane, etc.) are awesome bikes and took plenty of brains and talent to make. Several offer great features the equal or better those from other builders, regardless of their size.
> 
> Can you actually state a quantifiable difference that would justify the larger prices you would pay for the other bikes?


Yeah, when my bike is in a sea of Treks and Specialized mine is the one that stands out. And it doesn't stand out because it's color coordinated.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

velodog said:


> The only choice I see is blue.
> 
> That Caroll Shelby sure new how to put a car together.


I'm by no means a car guy, but I keep reading on the net that the original Cobra was more British than American. The design was by mostly Brit engineers and the manufacturing was in the UK. Not to say Shelby isn't a great car builder.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

The body was an under-powered and underwhelming AC model that Shelby was able to transform. While Shelby was often full of it, in this case AC deserves almost no credit.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

velodog said:


> Yeah, when my bike is in a sea of Treks and Specialized mine is the one that stands out. And it doesn't stand out because it's color coordinated.


So, warm & fuzzy in your tummy. Got it.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

velodog said:


> Yeah, when my bike is in a sea of Treks and Specialized mine is the one that stands out. And it doesn't stand out because it's color coordinated.


When on a group ride food stop, how do they find their dull-gray same-as-everyone-elses Trek or Spec from the among the mass of similar bikes? I probably would tie a colorful ribbon to it like I do with my suitcase at the airport


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

I go with the "Boring" comments. High end Treks and Specializeds are priced in the same ballpark with a lot of well respected independent shops. Of course a lot of R&D has goneinto them, but so has a lot of marketing $$$. Large bike shops in the US definitely have a big incentive to push Trek and Spech bikes/accessories. Maybe it's snobish, but I don't want to drop $5k+ on bike and see my neighbor's six year old riding the same brand.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveG said:


> When on a group ride food stop, how do they find their dull-gray same-as-everyone-elses Trek or Spec from the among the mass of similar bikes? I probably would tie a colorful ribbon to it like I do with my suitcase at the airport


Yeah, those bikes should come with a key fob that flash a light on the bike, or something, to make it easier to find.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Chader09 said:


> So, warm & fuzzy in your tummy. Got it.


Sorry pal, but there ain't nothing "warm and fuzzy" about me, so you ain't got it.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

lampshade said:


> I go with the "Boring" comments. High end Treks and Specializeds are priced in the same ballpark with a lot of well respected independent shops. Of course a lot of R&D has goneinto them, but so has a lot of marketing $$$. Large bike shops in the US definitely have a big incentive to push Trek and Spech bikes/accessories. * Maybe it's snobish*, but I don't want to drop $5k+ on bike and see my neighbor's six year old riding the same brand.


There's no "maybe" about it. That's snobish, typical roadie arrogance.

Skip a Corvette and choose a Porsche instead since Chevy sells a Cruze? Same, lame idea.

Placing that much emphasis on a brand name because of its exclusivity (or lack there of) is lame, narcissistic mentality.

The product is the product... it is good, bad or otherwise on its own.
(A rose by any other name...)


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

velodog said:


> Yeah, when my bike is in a sea of Treks and Specialized mine is the one that stands out. And it doesn't stand out because it's color coordinated.


So you just want to stand out? Similar mentality to high school girls and their clothes. Some of us got into riding just to ride and enjoy ourselves, not make a statement about how "different" and "boutique" our bike is, or to worry about losing it on a group ride. 

If the majority of this forum shares this kind of attitude, I personally won't be staying around for long. Luckily most I have had the chance to talk to here aren't like this, for now.

I have a TREK MTB and a Fuji roadie, and nobody has given me **** for having too mainstream of a bike. This is just ridiculous. You think your bike stands out, but in reality, I guarantee most people could care less what you're riding and don't even pay attention. 

Anyone ever seen the south park episode with the harley riders? That's what I'm feeling here, you know what you are.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Chances are good that most of these people ripping on the "bland bikes" would not say anything to your face. Net bravado and all that great etuffness.

Even if they did, it would only cement the fact that it's not worth knowing them, since that is how they view this topic.

I can buy the fact that some dislike Trek and Specialized based on business practices, product performance, service problems and the like. Something real and substantive with (omg) real logic behind the idea.

Hating on them because they are popular or successful is teenage clique BS.


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

Not really, "Hating." I don't actively "Dislike Trek/Spesh" and would never belittle someone for riding one or "say anything to thier face." It just comes down to personal preference.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I don't throw the word 'hate' around for silly things like bicycle brands.

I do have some brands who's foolish choices, politics and attitude towards their customers have them on my 'avoid giving them my money' list.

Specialized is at the very top, and will likely remain there.

Trek and Cannondale are tied for a distant second.

Edit to add: Trek did score some bonus points with me for employing my all time favorite cyclist (Jensie).


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Those 2 cars look like they should be taken to the junk yard.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> I don't throw the word 'hate' around for silly things like bicycle brands.
> 
> I do have some brands who's foolish choices, politics and attitude towards their customers have them on my 'avoid giving them my money' list.
> 
> ...


We are talking, 90%, about stickers on plastic bicycle frame downtubes? Which one is on your down tube matters? Are you really all that different because you have a different decal on your Giant manufactured frame? Material makes a difference, so does design, sure, but really, how much difference are we talking about? Compared to saddles, wheels, groupo, pedals? Pros seem to be winning races on all these different frames, Spesh and Trek, C'dale, Scott and Colnago... Now, materially speaking, and worth noting, no one races anything other than plastic.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> We are talking, 90%, about stickers on plastic bicycle frame downtubes? Which one is on your down tube matters? Are you really all that different because you have a different decal on your Giant manufactured frame? Material makes a difference, so does design, sure, but really, how much difference are we talking about? Compared to saddles, wheels, groupo, pedals? Pros seem to be winning races on all these different frames, Spesh and Trek, C'dale, Scott and Colnago... Now, materially speaking, and worth noting, no one races anything other than plastic.


yebbut 'soul' dude. 

sure 'soul' is merely a sticker nowadays, but dammit, soul is soul: wrong sticker, no soul. least that seems to be the gist of the thread topic.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

PBL450 said:


> We are talking, 90%, about stickers on plastic bicycle frame downtubes? Which one is on your down tube matters? Are you really all that different because you have a different decal on your Giant manufactured frame? Material makes a difference, so does design, sure, but really, how much difference are we talking about? Compared to saddles, wheels, groupo, pedals? Pros seem to be winning races on all these different frames, Spesh and Trek, C'dale, Scott and Colnago... Now, materially speaking, and worth noting, no one races anything other than plastic.


The thing is that there is more to cycling than just racing. And there are more materials than just plastic to build a bicycle from.

But I guess if someone wants to dress up and play Cowboys and Indians, they may as well get that plastic racing bicycle and chase Strava segments..


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Sierrarider said:


> With all the other bike companies out there, why buy a mass produced frame like Trek or Specialized.


#1 at the high end, there is no such thing as "mass produced", these things are far too sophisticated. 
#2 a larger company like Trek, Specialized or Giant employs more engineers than smaller companies have in total. It's difficult to produce super light carbon frames consistently (read: safely). Do you trust that job to a couple of guys trying to stay afloat?
#3 "Soul" when it comes to mechanical things is a synonym for "adorable flaws".
#4 there is no "plastic" in a carbon fiber frame.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

"Plastic" is technically accurate. The matrix/polymers that the fibers are suspended in meet that definition.

I don't think anyone would call the wings of a 777 dreamliner 'plastic', or the majority of the structure of an F1 car. Those things are about as high tech of thing as you can get, and while technically accurate, no one says 'hey, look at that plastic airplane' or 'hey look, a plastic car'. 

Used in the context of a "Carbon Fiber Bike", "plastic" is really only used as a derogatory term by people who are trying to diminish or devalue them for their own edification.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Migen21 said:


> "Plastic" is technically accurate. The matrixpolymers that the fibers are suspended in meet that definition.
> 
> Used in the context of a "Carbon Fiber Bike", "plastic" is really only used as a derogatory term by people who are trying to diminish or devalue them for their own edification.


naw, I see it as a term of endearment. 'monocoque carbon fibre' is a mouthful, makes one sound like a coque, LOL. Calling them plastic is like how diesel cars are called 'oil burners' and how tubing and fabric planes are called 'rag&tube' planes.

I call em plastic. And I really like my plastic S-works soul-less thing-o-beauty-to-my-eye-and-few-others (though I also have 3 Ti bikes, one alu, and one steel).


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

BCSaltchucker said:


> n'monocoque carbon fibre' is a mouthful, makes one sound like a coque, LOL.


I've never heard anyone call a bike 'monocoque carbon fibre' either...

"Carbon" or "Carbon Fiber" is the most common non-derogotory word.

I've used the word "plastic" myself, but only in a self-deprecating way.. "Hey, is that bike carbon fiber?".. Yea, it's just a plastic bike"..


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

velodog said:


> The thing is that there is more to cycling than just racing. And there are more materials than just plastic to build a bicycle from.
> 
> But I guess if someone wants to dress up and play Cowboys and Indians, they may as well get that plastic racing bicycle and chase Strava segments..


yes, there is more to cycling than racing. Lots more. If performance is your primary goal, either for racing or personal satisfaction, than watching what wins is worth something. If it doesn't matter to you, then good for you, make a decision based on anything you like... Magic? Marketing? Decals? Thin tubes? But frame material isn't going to make a significant difference compared to saddle comfort or what size and pressure are your tires... Getting excited about it is pure theatrics.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

davidka said:


> #1 at the high end, there is no such thing as "mass produced", these things are far too sophisticated.
> #2 a larger company like Trek, Specialized or Giant employs more engineers than smaller companies have in total. It's difficult to produce super light carbon frames consistently (read: safely). Do you trust that job to a couple of guys trying to stay afloat?
> #3 "Soul" when it comes to mechanical things is a synonym for "adorable flaws".
> #4 there is no "plastic" in a carbon fiber frame.


Carbon fiber is fancy... But it is absolutely plastic. Toray will tell you that.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

.


davidka said:


> #1 at the high end, there is no such thing as "mass produced", these things are far too sophisticated.
> #2 a larger company like Trek, Specialized or Giant employs more engineers than smaller companies have in total. It's difficult to produce super light carbon frames consistently (read: safely). Do you trust that job to a couple of guys trying to stay afloat?
> *#3 "Soul" when it comes to mechanical things is a synonym for "adorable flaws".*
> #4 there is no "plastic" in a carbon fiber frame.


Next you'll be suggesting that "LOVE" is not what makes a Subaru a Subaru?

I know that I'd never consider any ski except Soul 7's and only ride on Soul bikes because they are special


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

Chader09 said:


> There's no "maybe" about it. That's snobish, typical roadie arrogance.
> 
> Skip a Corvette and choose a Porsche instead since Chevy sells a Cruze? Same, lame idea.
> 
> ...


Sooooo, I take it you go along with whatever the herd wants to do? "Oh, I see everyone is buying Trek. I'll buy one too". 

That maybe fine for some but not me. If I'm going to spend $6-$8k on a bike, I'm sure as hell not buying something half the people on a group ride have. You may call it arrogance, narcissism, I call it individuality. For the same money I would rather buy a Cyfac or Sarto . Yes, I've ridden a Tarmac. A 2015 S-works Tarmac. Disc brakes, DA9000 di, carbon wheels. Was not overly impressed. Was even less impressed by the 9000di. 

Been riding for 36 yrs. In those 36 yrs I've own 2 big brand bikes; a Spec S-works M2 (great bike, very responsive) and a C-dale Super V (another good bike). When I had the Super V, I rode a friends Titus RacerX. The Titus was a step above the C-dale when it came to suspension, handling and ride. Just did things better. 

Just a bike has the name of a big manufacturer doesn't mean its best at anything. There are a lot of smaller builders out there that make bikes just as good or better than anything from Trek, Spec or C-dale. 

Oh, and yes I would buy a Corvette but with the latest Corvette weighing in at 3500lbs+/-, I consider it rather heavy. For the same money I'd rather have a Cayman GT4.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

DaveG said:


> When on a group ride food stop, how do they find their dull-gray same-as-everyone-elses Trek or Spec from the among the mass of similar bikes? I probably would tie a colorful ribbon to it like I do with my suitcase at the airport


One could just pony up for a Project 1 if they want individualization.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

exracer said:


> Sooooo, I take it you go along with whatever the herd wants to do? "Oh, I see everyone is buying Trek. I'll buy one too".


Nope, I never said or implied that. Buy the product that matches your needs, budget, etc. I take a logical perspective about getting the best product for the job, regardless of the fact they my neighbor may have the same one or something totally different.

Make a simple choice without considering how uniform or unique you may be. I see it as false individuality to have a bike that does the same job and looks a bit different or comes from a boutique brand for the pure reason of being different than the other guys bike.

Do whatever makes you feel better, but it is a bit shallow IMHO if that is the only reason you picked a "special" brand.



exracer said:


> That maybe fine for some but not me. If I'm going to spend $6-$8k on a bike, I'm sure as hell not buying something half the people on a group ride have. You may call it arrogance, narcissism, I call it individuality. For the same money I would rather buy a Cyfac or Sarto . Yes, I've ridden a Tarmac. A 2015 S-works Tarmac. Disc brakes, DA9000 di, carbon wheels. Was not overly impressed. Was even less impressed by the 9000di.
> 
> Been riding for 36 yrs. In those 36 yrs I've own 2 big brand bikes; a Spec S-works M2 (great bike, very responsive) and a C-dale Super V (another good bike). When I had the Super V, I rode a friends Titus RacerX. The Titus was a step above the C-dale when it came to suspension, handling and ride. Just did things better.
> 
> *Just a bike has the name of a big manufacturer doesn't mean its best at anything. *There are a lot of smaller builders out there that make bikes just as good or better than anything from Trek, Spec or C-dale.


Exactly my point. Big and small companies make good and bad products and have good and bad service. Buy the best bike for you needs.

Support the little company, throw a middle-finger to "the man" in the super company or any other substantive reason. But avoiding a perfectly good product because you aren't the only one with it is silly to me.



exracer said:


> Oh, and yes I would buy a Corvette but with the latest Corvette weighing in at 3500lbs+/-, I consider it rather heavy. For the same money I'd rather have a Cayman GT4.


Way OT: Comparing a Vette and Cayman are a bit out of field since weight/power and the like are quite different. The Vette is targeted against the 911 and such in most comparisons I have seen. It has always been a budget supercar while the Cayman/Boxter are the upper crust sports car.

Splitting hairs, I know, but they are different in meaningful ways. All that said, I really like the Cayman other than maintenance cost for the import. Parts and labor for the German ripper are a bit high, in my area at least (remote Montana). A Vette isn't cheap, but generally better.

As much as I love Vette's I would be far more likely to go the Miata route based on bang for buck in the smiles dept. A few well planned mods put onto an affordable used model and you have something that is super fun at reasonable speeds and at an autocross track.

Cheers.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

DaveG said:


> When on a group ride food stop, how do they find their dull-gray same-as-everyone-elses Trek or Spec from the among the mass of similar bikes? I probably would tie a colorful ribbon to it like I do with my suitcase at the airport


I put tennis balls on the bar ends. I can pick out my bike right away.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

exracer said:


> Oh, and yes I would buy a Corvette but with the latest Corvette weighing in at 3500lbs+/-, I consider it rather heavy. For the same money I'd rather have a Cayman GT4.


The Cayman is a ~2,950lbs, with 385 bhp. The extra 265 bhp in the 2016 Z06 certainly makes up for it's extra heft. Plus MSRP is $5k less. It's 7:08 Nurburgring time puts it closer to the 918 (6:57) than than Cayman GT4's 7:40.


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> The Cayman is a ~2,950lbs, with 385 bhp. The extra 265 bhp in the 2016 Z06 certainly makes up for it's extra heft. Plus MSRP is $5k less. It's 7:08 Nurburgring time puts it closer to the 918 (6:57) than than Cayman GT4's 7:40.


How about a 330whp (so around 400bhp) 2500lb miata on 245 wide slicks all around? Gets ALL the point-bys at track days and runs away from AMG Mercedes, mustangs, and corvettes alike (I haven't tried at a Z06 yet) But of course, it's a mainstream car and everyone races miatas and it has no soul, so it must not be any good 

Honestly, people's arguments here for why they like other brands of bikes would be totally valid if they didn't turn it into a "my bike is better than your bike" and "you're stupid because you bought what everyone buys". Then I'll take my proven mainstream Miata that blends in in the paddock, and you can have fun trying to catch me in a Deawoo, you know, becuase it's different.

Blue Cheese, this isn't directed at you, but some of the other more arrogant posters here


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Cleanneon98 said:


> How about a 330whp (so around 400bhp) 2500lb miata on 245 wide slicks all around? Gets ALL the point-bys at track days and runs away from AMG Mercedes, mustangs, and corvettes alike (I haven't tried at a Z06 yet) But of course, it's a mainstream car and everyone races miatas and it has no soul, so it must not be any good
> 
> Honestly, people's arguments here for why they like other brands of bikes would be totally valid if they didn't turn it into a "my bike is better than your bike" and "you're stupid because you bought what everyone buys". Then I'll take my proven mainstream Miata that blends in in the paddock, and you can have fun trying to catch me in a Deawoo, you know, becuase it's different.
> 
> Blue Cheese, this isn't directed at you, but some of the other more arrogant posters here


YMSSRA...

Totally agree on the bike and car stuff. The "I want to be different, just to be different" is funny, vain, irrational, etc.

Based on a fun experience, but harsh realization, I have a hard time spending big money on a car-toy after realizing my 3rd gen WRX was too much money to tie up into car I can't really use to it's potential without breaking the law or on the few AX days I can fit into my riding season.

That's why my next one would be a "girls car" Miata too. Sense of speed, handling and pure driving experience that is unmatched for the $. Add to that, the crazy reliability and it's the most practical impractical sporty car I can think of today.


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

Yea man, my Miata is also in that "spent too much money" category, with a little over 20k just in parts. The nice thing is I can still take the hardtop off and take it for a nice leisurely drive. Unfortunately, since I now have giant louvres in my hood, and slick tires, I have to plan driving it ahead of time. Last track day I went to rained out and I had to go home. Not too sad though, as a guy in a 300zx spun and hit the wall, then bounced and hit it again, totalling the car. I can't take those kinds of chances at this point.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

exracer said:


> That maybe fine for some but not me. If I'm going to spend $6-$8k on a bike, I'm sure as hell not buying something half the people on a group ride have.




Sorry, but I don't understand the logic here. Probably because there isn't any.

You would outright reject (or just not consider) a bike based the fact that other people ride the same bike?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> .
> 
> Next you'll be suggesting that "LOVE" is not what makes a Subaru a Subaru?
> 
> I know that I'd never consider any ski except Soul 7's and only ride on Soul bikes because they are special


Just checked out the link. Good one! :lol:


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> One could just pony up for a Project 1 if they want individualization.


Same bike, different color. That just makes your tattoo a little different than the one everybody else wears.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Migen21 said:


> Sorry, but I don't understand the logic here. Probably because there isn't any.
> 
> You would outright reject (or just not consider) a bike based the fact that other people ride the same bike? [/COLOR]


What others in your area ride is mostly what's available, what riders can afford, and what they like. So not a bad idea to key on the bikes the pros ride, and if riders are consistently winners on them, that's all an unsophisticated, naive, newbie rider needs to make a decision. 

Have to admit that's what i did when lust was strongest back in the 80s. I read the race magazines, saw the bikes racers were winning on, and took a chance, entirely by faith, on DeRosa, the last bike Eddy rode. The purchase paid off exponentially. I've saved hundreds of dollars over the 75,000 miles on that bike in "upgrades." New bikes have come and gone, replaced by the latest bling, but none [until recently! ] have tempted me away from my true love. 

The market has gotten way more complex since then, but still, the highest mark of approval of a particular bike is winning races, same as in cars, even more so, as the rider is the engine. Subtle differences in handling and comfort can very well determine winners and losers by the end of a grueling stage race.

We mortals are lucky. We can save up and spring for what the pros ride, take 'em out on the road, test our grit, and have fun. Not so or prohibitively expensive with cars. No need to be snobbish. Other riders are envious and accuse you of being snobbish, though, frequently after you just waxed the hill in front of him, or bridged a gap. They think you're showing off.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> Sorry, but I don't understand the logic here. Probably because there isn't any.
> 
> You would outright reject (or just not consider) a bike based the fact that other people ride the same bike? [/COLOR]


Next time I get a bike I am just going to make it myself. I like to work in the shop anyway so it will be fun. I have always liked Columbus tubing.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

velodog said:


> Same bike, different color. That just makes your tattoo a little different than the one everybody else wears.


At the end of the day change the name on the down tube does not change a bike from being a bike. People should ride what fits and works for them regardless of the name.

My Time VXS is just like every other Time VXS, but rarely seen in the states. It does not make me ride any faster in a group than if I am on my Domane. There is no difference in self esteem in riding one over the other. 99% percent of people recognize the Time simply as a bicycle and I am good with that, as that is what it is.


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

I still can't believe grown men will go out of their way to spend money on something just to be "different". Maybe its a midlife crisis thing, maybe they just never mentally left HS, who knows. Nevermind that plenty of these brands they love to hate win races (which is what matters right), and get praised by reviewers and pros, but YOU (guy who wants to stand out) know better than all of them, because your bike doesn't get lost in a crowd of riders.



Blue CheeseHead said:


> My Time VXS is just like every other Time VXS, but rarely seen in the states. It does not make me ride any faster in a group than if I am on my Domane. *There is no difference in self esteem in riding one over the other.* 99% percent of people recognize the Time simply as a bicycle and I am good with that, as that is what it is.



That's because you're a cycling enthusiast, not an elitist douche. I think some of the people here get home after a long sweaty ride on their bike that nobody else has, and take a long hard whiff of their chamois, cause they love the smell of their own junk, kind of like those people who love the smell of their own farts (snobs).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Cleanneon98 said:


> I still can't believe grown men will go out of their way to spend money on something just to be "different". Maybe its a midlife crisis thing, maybe they just never mentally left HS, who knows. Nevermind that plenty of these brands they love to hate win races (which is what matters right), and get praised by reviewers and pros, but YOU (guy who wants to stand out) know better than all of them, because your bike doesn't get lost in a crowd of riders.
> 
> 
> That's because you're a cycling enthusiast, not an elitist douche. I think some of the people here get home after a long sweaty ride on their bike that nobody else has, and take a long hard whiff of their chamois, cause they love the smell of their own junk, kind of like those people who love the smell of their own farts (snobs).


Dude, your out here pounding your chest calling a bunch of cyclists that you don't know "junk sniffing elitist douches" because they\we don't want to ride the same bike that you do.

I guess you've got an ego that you need to feed too. Hope you feel better about yourself after your little rant.


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

I actually do feel better. I think I'll take a ride with some friends who have department store bikes and just enjoy the ride and the company, all while not thinking for a second about how much better/more unique my bike is. I won't think less of them for not having proper cycling clothing, or clipless pedals. In fact, I might find a group of Fuji GranFondo owners and ride with them just so I can learn a thing or two, because I don't care about standing out but I realize some people NEED the attention.


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## masi85 (Feb 20, 2007)

Great last paragraph - I haven't laughed so hard in a long time!


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Migen21 said:


> Sorry, but I don't understand the logic here. Probably because there isn't any.
> 
> You would outright reject (or just not consider) a bike based the fact that other people ride the same bike? [/COLOR]


I understand the logic, because I would. There are more-or-less equivalent choices: you can get equivalent bang/buck, fit, color, service, etc. on more than one option. Why not buy something a little different than what you see day to day? Surely, it's no worse than buying a bike based on brand just because that brand is better marketed or popular than others?


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

not that anyone needs to justify to anyone else why they chose their specific bike! The reasoning behind the choice really really doesn't matter to anyone else imho. I mean it sure ain't like choosing a wife.

sheesh

I just like to admire other folks' nice bikes, but have never been been disappointed by anyone else's choice. hey it wasn't my choice, so what's it matter to me??? And come to think of it, I cannot think of any bike that any owner has posted on here that I dislike.

In fact it is only this moment I recall that I own a Trek, and I like it LOL (an old beater MTB, thinking of reviving it to ride at my vacation home down south). And I own a rich in soul Italian bike, and everything in between it seems


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Cleanneon98 said:


> I still can't believe grown men will go out of their way to spend money on something just to be "different". Maybe its a midlife crisis thing, maybe they just never mentally left HS, who knows. Nevermind that plenty of these brands they love to hate win races (which is what matters right), and get praised by reviewers and pros, but YOU (guy who wants to stand out) know better than all of them, because your bike doesn't get lost in a crowd of riders.
> 
> 
> That's because you're a cycling enthusiast, not an elitist douche. I think some of the people here get home after a long sweaty ride on their bike that nobody else has, and take a long hard whiff of their chamois, cause they love the smell of their own junk, kind of like those people who love the smell of their own farts (snobs).


Hey, you're cool riding with your friends on "department store" bikes. But someday you'll want to step up to a hassle free bike that rewards you for your efforts.

Indeed there are lots of snobs riding great bikes, just as there are driving luxury cars, but the overwhelming majority are merely in love with cycling and won't settle for anything less than the good stuff. That's where the fun is, if you're competitive, that is.


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

Fredrico said:


> Hey, you're cool riding with your friends on "department store" bikes. But someday you'll want to step up to a hassle free bike that rewards you for your efforts.
> 
> Indeed there are lots of snobs riding great bikes, just as there are driving luxury cars, but the overwhelming majority are merely in love with cycling and won't settle for anything less than the good stuff. That's where the fun is, if you're competitive, that is.


I agree, and I'm fine riding my $2,000 fuji which some here would consider junk, with people who ride whatever, even if it's a $200 craigslist special

Like someone said, you get to a point where all the components and groups are the same, so what makes your I've never heard of this brand bike with 105 components better than my 105 spec'd bike that has a "brand name" recognition?

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned is that with a trek or a fuji or one of the other big brands, if I have a problem with my bike, I take it to the LBS where I bought it and have them facilitate everything for me. I don't mean a component problem that can be simply repaired, but something like a frame issue. How do these smaller companies handle warranty issues? How long does it take them? Do you ship the bike back to them on your dollar? Maybe I don't know how this works, but it seems like buying a Tesla, great car, but there's no dealerships or service centers, so how do you take care of things when they inevitably go wrong?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Cleanneon98 said:


> I agree, and I'm fine riding my $2,000 fuji which some here would consider junk, with people who ride whatever, even if it's a $200 craigslist special
> 
> Like someone said, you get to a point where all the components and groups are the same, so what makes your I've never heard of this brand bike with 105 components better than my 105 spec'd bike that has a "brand name" recognition?
> 
> One other thing I haven't seen mentioned is that with a trek or a fuji or one of the other big brands, if I have a problem with my bike, I take it to the LBS where I bought it and have them facilitate everything for me. I don't mean a component problem that can be simply repaired, but something like a frame issue. How do these smaller companies handle warranty issues? How long does it take them? Do you ship the bike back to them on your dollar? Maybe I don't know how this works, but it seems like buying a Tesla, great car, but there's no dealerships or service centers, so how do you take care of things when they inevitably go wrong?


High end bikes are as easy, in fact easier to work on than department store bikes. The screws won't strip out when tightening, the components stay in place and keep working way beyond the cheap stuff. Easy to do maintenance yourself. All you need is a stand and a few tools. Bike are way simpler than cars. LBS can take care of BB, headset maintenance and problems you can't figure out, or don't have the tools to fix.

Others may correct me, but generally, small builders are very attentive to product quality. They rely on reputation as they don't aggressively market their product through expensive ad campaigns. You can talk with the builder. Small builders are very responsive to customer complaints. At Target, forget it. 

Tell your buddies to spring a hundred or two on a "real" bike shop quality bike. Most sold on Craig's list probably haven't been ridden much and are in great shape.

A $2,000 Fuji sure is far better than department store, though. You have every right to be a snob along with the Madone and Dogma owners.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Amazing how much some people resent others enjoy themselves.

If you see someone on a junker or a custom Pegoretti, treat them the same. If they are enjoying the ride, that is all that matters.


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

Fredrico said:


> High end bikes are as easy, in fact easier to work on than department store bikes. The screws won't strip out when tightening, the components stay in place and keep working way beyond the cheap stuff. Easy to do maintenance yourself. All you need is a stand and a few tools. Bike are way simpler than cars. LBS can take care of BB, headset maintenance and problems you can't figure out, or don't have the tools to fix.
> 
> Others may correct me, but generally, small builders are very attentive to product quality. They rely on reputation as they don't aggressively market their product through expensive ad campaigns. You can talk with the builder. Small builders are very responsive to customer complaints. At Target, forget it.
> 
> ...


I hope to never become a bike snob, or a snob in any aspect of my life for that matter. Yes, I agree on the perils of department store bikes, and understand their limitations, but that won't stop me from riding with people who own them, or one of the many bikes sold on CL that often have no branding identification at all. 

What I mean is say I own a TREK or a FUJI. If I have a frame issue or something that an LBS can't fix, I feel pretty confident that trek or fuji would have me on the road with a new frame in a rather short turnaround. All I have to do is bring in my bike and that's the end of my work. I've often even heard of TREK upgrading customers with frame defects to newer bikes when an old frame could not be made/found for them. I'm sure the smaller companies are very detail oriented, but everyone has issues. The question then becomes how do they handle these issues, how quickly, and how much headache does the consumer have to go through when there is no dealer to facilitate this process for them. 

To say a consumer is stupid for buying a TREK because everyone else has them is like saying someone is stupid for buying a Honda because everyone has them. Bad brands don't stay around for long, so yes, if on a group ride 6/10 bikes are TREK and the others are all different brands, it's not stupid of a consumer to think that TREK is a good company. 

I bought my TREK FUEL EX9 used so I have no warranty at all, but when I contacted TREK to see if they could down the road possibly get me a frame if I should need it, because the 2016 frames are different. They told me the frames would be available for quite some time, and if not, even though I was out of warranty, they would still work with me if I should need anything my LBS can't provide. An example of this is how on the mtbr forum a customer had an issue with a trek frame that was a few years old. The newer frame they were going to provide the customer would not fit his wheels, fork, the BB had changed, tons of issues, so TREK took back his old bike in it's entirety and gave him a brand new complete bike which had better components on it than what he gave back.


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## the_doctor (Dec 27, 2008)

A lot of folks around here are riding Fuji. The Trek dealership for Massachusetts was located in Metrowest and Boston. They opened a store south of Boston in the recent past. Every other store south of Boston was selling Specialized. Two stores sold Fuji. Since the Trek dealer was physically removed from the people then they went elsewhere.

Trek seems to be more flexible with their sales quotes than Specialized has. Specialized requires you to buy a massive amount of inventory and effectively mandates you to sell Specialized only. Fuji does not make these requirements.

Trek's mountain bike line was doing good for a while. Smaller dealers could sell only their MTB line. They could not be involved in Trek Road bikes, but they could sell Gary Fisher. 

Yet all of a sudden the winds blew. Several dealers were selling them, but then they required you to be a Trek dealer instead of just a Trek MTB dealer. So, this anti-competitive move reduced their MTB exposure in the region.

I think that set a lot of people to ride Fuji. Specialized has some great product but it had some issues over the years. Specialized also sued Cafe Roubaix in Canada. This does not leave customers with a favorable impression of Specialized.

I am seeing lots of Fuji Gran Fondos, Altamiras, and SST bikes when only two stores sell Fuji. Many are selling Specialized.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Cleanneon98 said:


> ...
> To say a consumer is stupid for buying a TREK because everyone else has them is like saying someone is stupid for buying a Honda because everyone has them. Bad brands don't stay around for long, so yes, if on a group ride 6/10 bikes are TREK and the others are all different brands, it's not stupid of a consumer to think that TREK is a good company. ....


This is a strange comment. I really don't think anyone actually thinks someone is "stupid" for buying Trek or any other popular, well known brand. I think what is being said (at least by me, if not others) is that it is a fact that the brand is no better or worse than any other brand at any give price point, that there are alternatives that are equivalent at any price point. Why _not_ buy something different? what's wrong with that? It's no different chosing a brand for that relatively arbitrary reason than buying a brand just because it's well known and familiar.

It doesn't mean I'm smarter than the other guy, but it might mean I know that there's equivalent or better alternatives for the money, and the other guy might not. Maybe he does. Either way, he's not stupid for buying a perfectly good bike and I'm not a snob just because I prefer to buy something that is slightly less popular or common.


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## Ghost_HTX (Jul 15, 2015)

I noticed that there were a LOT of Treks at the last event I rode. It actually seemed that maybe half of the bikes I saw were Treks. That's just fine - I think that you should just ride what works for you.

I would happily own a Trek - I've even considered it in the past. But after building my road bike from the frame up, I wouldn't like to buy another complete bike. I like to pick my own components and know that the person who fitted everything, who tightened everything up is also responsible for not crashing... It's a nice feeling completing a sportive next to a guy on a super bling Pinarello / Cervelo / whatever... on a bike you built yourself for the same cost as his wheel set.

And for the money you spend, well Trek frame sets are quite pricey - especially new out the box. The same is true for pretty much all major brands, though (Specialized, Bianchi, Cervelo etc). For the price of a new Emonda SLR frame set (just shy of 2000USD delivered) I bought and built (on a mixture of new and used parts) a reasonably nice carbon aero road bike with a mixture of Campy Super Record, Athena, Chorus and Centaur bits and 38mm section carbon wheels. The only "china carbon" on my bike is the wheels. The frame is a Gavia; a Norwegian brand (ok, they produce in China, but then so does almost everyone!). 

So for me, Trek is fine. Specialized is fine. I regard them with the same attitude as Hong Fu, Fuji, Cervelo, Bianchi, Colnago, Flyxii, Hard Rockx, Look, Merckx, Everest, Nishiki, Gavia, Willier Triestina, Gekko, Nakamura, Salsa, Surly, Santa Cruz, La Pierre, you name it. A bike is a bike and so long as you get the look, fit and spec you want for the price you are willing to pay then all power to you.


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## jtuds (Jun 14, 2016)

I just bought my first "expensive" bike....for most of you an ALR5 isn't considered an expensive bike but I never thought I'd spend that much on one.

Anyway, I initially didn't want to buy a Trek and specifically didn't look at them. Then one day I got curious about what Trek offers in my price range and I saw how much better-equipped it was than what I had been looking at. 

Once I started to look at my preferred brands to see how much a similar bike would cost, I realized that Trek was offering value I couldn't get elsewhere. 

After that, the only other bike I could considered was a Cannondale CAAD12 but I couldn't find one in my size to test so I bought the Trek. 

The initial deterrent to looking at Trek was the "big box" type image of the brand. It's really no different than why people like to support local bike shops instead of going to big chains. 

But it in the end, that value couldn't be denied and I'm happy with my choice


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

lampshade said:


> Not really, "Hating." I don't actively "Dislike Trek/Spesh" and would never belittle someone for riding one or "say anything to thier face." It just comes down to personal preference.


+1 on this one


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

I don't judge people by brand but by bike fit and impulsiveness. I see a lot of folks around here who on whim decided they wanted an awesome road bike, then I never see them ride again a month later, thousands spent on impulse.

Or my favorite w/ example.

Near me dude bought a really nice Bianchi, beautiful bike w/ Ultrega Di2. He rides it like a moron but just HAD to have a racing bike. So much stack on the steerer. Seat is jammed forward. He's NEVER on the drops, barely on the hoods, almost always on the tops. He clearly doesn't have the flexibility to ride this awesome performance race frame. But you know, he just has to have a Bianchi race frame... I cry inside a little, not for him but the bike, it's being humiliated. IMO he should be riding one of those comfy hybrids w/ straight bar.


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

One thing I would note with these off the shelf bike brands... I'm still amazed they pair them with cheap wheels. I use cheap wheels cause I built a cheap bike, it works for me.

But I find it hilarious I see people everywhere around me riding carbon frames costing thousands upon thousands (Cervelo/Cannondale/Trek/Felt) yet they are riding the stock $150 per pair wheelset I can get from MerlinCycles or Wiggle. It's hilarious for me, because these bikes are loaded with marketing about aero and stiffness, when everywhere I read or watch, best upgrade is an aero stiff carbon wheels 38mm or greater, not a lighter/stiffer or more aero frame.

Was thinking if I wanted a branded Trek, I'd go with an entry level carbon and spend savings on wheel upgrades. 

I was looking at a fantastic Scott CR1, wheelset is the RS11, mind blown. Hopefully cost of wheels will go down and these fantastic frames will be sold with appropriately fantastic for the money wheels.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

ruckus said:


> I don't judge people by brand but by bike fit and impulsiveness. I see a lot of folks around here who on whim decided they wanted an awesome road bike, then I never see them ride again a month later, thousands spent on impulse.
> 
> Or my favorite w/ example.
> 
> Near me dude bought a really nice Bianchi, beautiful bike w/ Ultrega Di2. He rides it like a moron but just HAD to have a racing bike. So much stack on the steerer. Seat is jammed forward. He's NEVER on the drops, barely on the hoods, almost always on the tops. He clearly doesn't have the flexibility to ride this awesome performance race frame. But you know, he just has to have a Bianchi race frame... I cry inside a little, not for him but the bike, it's being humiliated. IMO he should be riding one of those comfy hybrids w/ straight bar.


SO what is worse, him buying a hybrid he doesn't want to/won't ride, or a bike that doesn't really suit him, but he loves to bits?



ruckus said:


> One thing I would note with these off the shelf bike brands... I'm still amazed they pair them with cheap wheels. I use cheap wheels cause I built a cheap bike, it works for me.
> 
> But I find it hilarious I see people everywhere around me riding carbon frames costing thousands upon thousands (Cervelo/Cannondale/Trek/Felt) yet they are riding the stock $150 per pair wheelset I can get from MerlinCycles or Wiggle. It's hilarious for me, because these bikes are loaded with marketing about aero and stiffness, when everywhere I read or watch, best upgrade is an aero stiff carbon wheels 38mm or greater, not a lighter/stiffer or more aero frame.
> 
> ...


But as to wheels, most companies seem to be of the opinion that if you are dropping a chunk on a bike, that you will already have some great wheels, or will be buying some, both to their personal preference. SO why push the price of an already expensive bike up even more when the person buying may not want to be locked into whatever wheels come with the bike. I mean how many peole here would be super excited if their bike came with some high end pricey Mavics? I'd be happy, but a lot of people don't like mavics, so then they have to sell them, but nobody wants them, so not only did they have to pay for them with the bike, they now have to fork out $$$ for the wheels they want, when they could have just had some $150 wheels instead.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

ruckus said:


> I don't judge people by brand but by bike fit and impulsiveness. I see a lot of folks around here who on whim decided they wanted an awesome road bike, then I never see them ride again a month later, thousands spent on impulse.
> 
> Or my favorite w/ example.
> 
> Near me dude bought a really nice Bianchi, beautiful bike w/ Ultrega Di2. He rides it like a moron but just HAD to have a racing bike. So much stack on the steerer. Seat is jammed forward. He's NEVER on the drops, barely on the hoods, almost always on the tops. He clearly doesn't have the flexibility to ride this awesome performance race frame. But you know, he just has to have a Bianchi race frame... I cry inside a little, not for him but the bike, it's being humiliated. IMO he should be riding one of those comfy hybrids w/ straight bar.





ruckus said:


> One thing I would note with these off the shelf bike brands... I'm still amazed they pair them with cheap wheels. I use cheap wheels cause I built a cheap bike, it works for me.
> 
> But I find it hilarious I see people everywhere around me riding carbon frames costing thousands upon thousands (Cervelo/Cannondale/Trek/Felt) yet they are riding the stock $150 per pair wheelset I can get from MerlinCycles or Wiggle. It's hilarious for me, because these bikes are loaded with marketing about aero and stiffness, when everywhere I read or watch, best upgrade is an aero stiff carbon wheels 38mm or greater, not a lighter/stiffer or more aero frame.
> 
> ...


Mate, I gave up judging others a few years ago. If folks are enjoying what they are doing and it isn't endangering me or mine who am I to judge? Most of your reactions are negative, what's the point? Does it make you feel better about yourself? It shouldn't, otherwise you have other more pressing things in your life than other peoples' rides.


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

I think a lot of it comes down to just being a bike nerd at heart. People in this thread keep saying, "Just enjoy the ride." I do, but I also like bike stuff and am fortunate to make enough money to buy some cool products.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

kiwisimon said:


> Mate, I gave up judging others a few years ago. If folks are enjoying what they are doing and it isn't endangering me or mine who am I to judge? Most of your reactions are negative, what's the point? Does it make you feel better about yourself? It shouldn't, otherwise you have other more pressing things in your life than other peoples' rides.


This is where I am in cycling and life. It doesn't matter how much money you have or how much you like bikes (almost all of us here do, right?), this just seems rational to me....


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

mik_git said:


> SO what is worse, him buying a hybrid he doesn't want to/won't ride, or a bike that doesn't really suit him, but he loves to bits?
> 
> 
> 
> But as to wheels, most companies seem to be of the opinion that if you are dropping a chunk on a bike, that you will already have some great wheels, or will be buying some, both to their personal preference. SO why push the price of an already expensive bike up even more when the person buying may not want to be locked into whatever wheels come with the bike. I mean how many peole here would be super excited if their bike came with some high end pricey Mavics? I'd be happy, but a lot of people don't like mavics, so then they have to sell them, but nobody wants them, so not only did they have to pay for them with the bike, they now have to fork out $$$ for the wheels they want, when they could have just had some $150 wheels instead.


Yep. Well said.

Wheels are interchangeable. The best are a fraction of the cost of a new frame.

I got a nice set of wheels and put them on a cheap frame. They made a difference, but the frame is the heart of the system. The new stiff wheels were great, but they didn't compensate for the noodley frame, so the upgrade was wasted. Until, that is, I bought a new frame!


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Yep. Well said.
> 
> Wheels are interchangeable. The best are a fraction of the cost of a new frame.
> 
> I got a nice set of wheels and put them on a cheap frame. They made a difference, but the frame is the heart of the system. The new stiff wheels were great, but they didn't compensate for the noodley frame, so the upgrade was wasted. Until, that is, I bought a new frame!


Giant is providing the best of both worlds on many of their bikes for those that are interested. Nice carbon wheels and a solid frame at a relatively affordable price.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Rashadabd said:


> Giant is providing the best of both worlds on many of their bikes for those that are interested. Nice carbon wheels and a solid frame at a relatively affordable price.


I'll take it! As long as they pronounce it "Gee-ont." :ihih:


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> Giant is providing the best of both worlds on many of their bikes for those that are interested. Nice carbon wheels and a solid frame at a relatively affordable price.


Interested maybe in the future, though not a fan of the look of their frames, especially the Defy since that's the kind of frame I'm looking at. Canyon really does it for me, think they got it down pat but they supply their bikes with junky DT Swiss.


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

How to not "lose your TREK in a crowd on a group ride"? Buy one in Goldenage color!


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## MXL (Jun 26, 2012)

Not that I dislike Trek, when it comes to road bikes I don't like ubiquity - don't know why. Seems like every bike on the road is either Trek, Specificalized, Canondale, Cervelo, et al. I also don't like companies that shifted their manufacture to Asia, including my beloved Colbago. For me, I buy road bikes that are hand made in Europe - or custom steel from small, US makers like Steve Rex.


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## MXL (Jun 26, 2012)

Not that I dislike Trek, when it comes to road bikes I don't like ubiquity - don't know why. Seems like every bike on the road is either Trek, Specificalized, Canondale, Cervelo, et al. I also don't like companies that shifted their manufacture to Asia, including my beloved Colnago. For me, I buy road bikes that are hand made in Europe - or custom steel from small, US makers like Steve Rex. Of course, only bikes adorned in Campy are acceptable.


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## Cleanneon98 (May 30, 2016)

Aren't all carbon bikes hand made to some extent? 

My SL6 is made in Taiwan, the SLR6 has a frame made in the US. The frame is around 350g lighter, but considering the SL6 retailed for $3000 and the SLR6 (same grouppo) retailed for $5500, I couldn't justify the cost increase (sure 700 carbon is better, but 500 is still fantastic)

Chatting with my LBS, they said the only people they see buying SLR frames are either ones with big money, or shop employees that get a STEEP discount from cost for 1 TREK bike per year. It was at this point that one of the shop employees who owns an SLR6 doubled down on that statement and said if it wasn't for his discount, he'd have been content with an SL6.

I guess to some people the country of manufacture matters more than others. I would love to own a bike built in the US, and I always buy Craftsman tools that are US and not China made (even though the warranties are the same), but that has a 10-20% price difference to buy US made, not nearly double as the bikes are.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Cleanneon98 said:


> How to not "lose your TREK in a crowd on a group ride"? Buy one in Goldenage color!
> 
> View attachment 315465


Love that color! My Scott I similar but a touch softer. I was so-so about the color when I bought the bike but I love it now.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

MXL said:


> Not that I dislike Trek, when it comes to road bikes I don't like ubiquity - don't know why. Seems like every bike on the road is either Trek, Specificalized, Canondale, Cervelo, et al. I also don't like companies that shifted their manufacture to Asia, including my beloved Colnago. For me, I buy road bikes that are hand made in Europe - or custom steel from small, US makers like Steve Rex. Of course, only bikes adorned in Campy are acceptable.


That's nice, very quaint, the custom USA steel... All Romanian grouppo? wheels too? Tires are made where? Saddle? Pedals? That's an expensive way to ride bicycles. It's cool and all, if that's what you are into but it doesn't make other people's choices worse than yours. They might have 1/100th less invested in bike parts. They might care more about performance than being interesting, or weight, or a certain feel. Maybe they like a particular LBS and they sell Trek? It's good to have niche market frames and people to buy them, it keeps a guy who makes frames in business. For most people, stretching their cycling dollar, they buy what they see as the best value in their reach. Taiwanese production is no worse, and arguably better than US or Euro production. Is Romanian manufacturing de-facto better than Taiwanese? I think, if you love a style and type of bike, that's great, it's nice to see odd lot frames out on the road. And no knock on Campy... Albeit I love my SRAM double tap and can't see anything but Red as next... The unique bike frame is kind of cool because it's different. But it isn't better. Every rider in Le Tour was on a ubiquitous bike and it seemed to work pretty well for them. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

PBL450 said:


> That's nice, very quaint, the custom USA steel... All Romanian grouppo? wheels too? Tires are made where? Saddle? Pedals? That's an expensive way to ride bicycles. It's cool and all, if that's what you are into but it doesn't make other people's choices worse than yours. They might have 1/100th less invested in bike parts. They might care more about performance than being interesting, or weight, or a certain feel. Maybe they like a particular LBS and they sell Trek? It's good to have niche market frames and people to buy them, it keeps a guy who makes frames in business. For most people, stretching their cycling dollar, they buy what they see as the best value in their reach. Taiwanese production is no worse, and arguably better than US or Euro production. Is Romanian manufacturing de-facto better than Taiwanese? I think, if you love a style and type of bike, that's great, it's nice to see odd lot frames out on the road. And no knock on Campy... Albeit I love my SRAM double tap and can't see anything but Red as next... The unique bike frame is kind of cool because it's different. But it isn't better. Every rider in Le Tour was on a ubiquitous bike and it seemed to work pretty well for them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Everyone should just ride what they like. Speaking of ubiquitous, did anyone see the photo for the USA men's basketball team? They made everyone who doesn't endorse Nike turn their feet, so no other logos (Adidas, Reebok, etc.) were visible .


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## MXL (Jun 26, 2012)

PBL450 said:


> That's nice, very quaint, the custom USA steel... All Romanian grouppo? wheels too? Tires are made where? Saddle? Pedals? That's an expensive way to ride bicycles. It's cool and all, if that's what you are into but it doesn't make other people's choices worse than yours. They might have 1/100th less invested in bike parts. They might care more about performance than being interesting, or weight, or a certain feel. Maybe they like a particular LBS and they sell Trek? It's good to have niche market frames and people to buy them, it keeps a guy who makes frames in business. For most people, stretching their cycling dollar, they buy what they see as the best value in their reach. Taiwanese production is no worse, and arguably better than US or Euro production. Is Romanian manufacturing de-facto better than Taiwanese? I think, if you love a style and type of bike, that's great, it's nice to see odd lot frames out on the road. And no knock on Campy... Albeit I love my SRAM double tap and can't see anything but Red as next... The unique bike frame is kind of cool because it's different. But it isn't better. Every rider in Le Tour was on a ubiquitous bike and it seemed to work pretty well for them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Not knocking anybody else's taste in bikes, just stating my tastes. Truthfully, I've been eyeing SRAM Red - would likely try it if I go with a custom steel bike. Though good components, just don't care for Shimano. Had dura ace on my Landshark. Loved the bike, just couldn't warm up to the shimano group.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

MXL said:


> Not knocking anybody else's taste in bikes, just stating my tastes. Truthfully, I've been eyeing SRAM Red - would likely try it if I go with a custom steel bike. Though good components, just don't care for Shimano. Had dura ace on my Landshark. Loved the bike, just couldn't warm up to the shimano group.


Love my SRAM and will do Red eventually when the daughters college room and board is paid for. Totally going Red as soon as I can afford it. And yes, ride whatever excites you or performs to your level of expectation or what you can afford? It's a crazy e pensive market...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HyperCycle (Sep 5, 2012)

Great thread... very entertaining and sometimes comical to read. 

I'm guilty as charged on being a typical Trek owner... I own 5 of them, most of which are entry level or lower intermediate.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

frisbie17 said:


> Lot of people on here really do not like Trek Bikes. Just wondering why? Post intelligent comments please with facts about the bikes. Not looking for "Because they suck comments".
> 
> Thanks


I like Treks. The frames, that is. It's the Bontrager components the put on them that I am not a fan of.


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