# Headset for a new-ish Chinese carbon frame



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

It has 1-1/8" carbon steerer tube and came with some no name headset that keeps wiggling. What are reasonably priced alternatives? The bike is very light right now, so I don't want to spoil that with a heavy component.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Wow...could you provide any less information? Integrated headset? Pressed-in cups? If it's integrated, which standard is it? 
And...
The fact that it loosens up is most likely not the fault of the headset.

You're not going to gain or lose much weight w/ the headset so don't worry much about that. 

Give us some more info and maybe we can come up w/ some advice.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Here is the picture I took before I installed the fork. I am glad I found it, otherwise I would have to disassemble this part of the bicycle.

It's true that I don't have the headset's top cap pressing down onto the stem, because I have not cut the steerer tube yet, so it's too long right now to install the crown nut unless I put a lot of spacers below the top cap (which is indeed a viable but silly solution). But I do push the stem as hard as I can down onto the spacers before I tighten the pinch bolts to squeeze the stem tight onto the steerer tube. So that should be sufficient to keep the headset tight as long as the stem remains rigid and immobile against the steerer tube. I also used a screwdriver to tap the compression ring evenly onto the top bearing before I install the spacers and stem.

Notice the right-most metal ring, the crown race, that presses against the cartridge bearing to its left. That interface is strange: the thin left-side edge of the crown race barely contacts the edge of the cartridge bearing, and that seems too small a contact area to support half the weight of the rider.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

A most likely cause of the wiggle is that the compression ring on top needs to be re-seated onto the top bearing. You can see the compression ring as the left most piece in my picture.

The CF piece (not shown in the picture) that is on top of the compression ring binds rather tightly against the steerer tube, so pushing down on the stem by hand won't provide enough pressure to seat a compression ring that has come loose. Maybe that is why using a top cap and star nut to do this pushing down is mandatory.

Hence I need to cut my CF steerer tube. But how do I do that cleanly?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

From the picture (I'm using my phone, so the pic is small), it looks like the fork has an integrated lower race. Ergo, you shouldn't be using the metal race that came with the headset. It will never, ever be tight if it has 2 races. Also, you can't get an integrated headset tight enough without the top cap. That would be top cap/expander - NOT star nut. You never, ever, EVER use a star nut in a carbon steerer tube.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Looking at the photo, I believe that Platy is correct.

Meaning you will have to dissassemble the thing anyway.

Sounds like you need some experienced help. There are serious safety implications to messing things up with a headset install.

Either get help, or research enough that you have a proper understanding as to what you are doing.

We have a saying "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The headset I have on it now will need the metal lower race to fit properly, since the integrated lower race you speak of is much too large in diameter for the lower cartridge bearing.

I can get a whole new headset meant for CF steerer tubes, with suitable top cap and expander, but are you sure the top of the fork is meant to press up against the lower bearing directly, assuming I get a suitable new headset? This headset came with the bike frame, and the frame supplier claims it is supposed to work with this fork.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

It's pretty obvious to me that something is wrong w/ the lower bearing/crown race that you have...like you have a 1.5" tapered fork and a headset that is for 1.25" tapered steerers, or maybe 1.375"(like Cervelo). Given your level on expertise, head to a good local shop and get some help. Do NOT attempt to assemble something that is this important to your long term well being if you don't understand what is going on.


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## High-Roller (May 29, 2011)

Cxwrench has it. Looks like your headset is totally wrong. Bring your china carbon to your shop, deal with the humiliation it, and get it done right. Needing help may suck, but breaking your bike sucks more. You also need to trim that Steerer to get it to tighten up at all, unless you pile on spacers. But then you have to do the same task again. 
Like Platy said, if you use a star-nut in your carbon, we will laugh at your misery. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE use a compression plug. Breaking your own stuff sucks, that's why CXwrench, Platy, myself, and lots of other wrenches do this.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Thanks, guys, for all your input.

I'll go get a headset designed for a carbon fork and a steerer tube with an integrated 1-1/2" lower race then, so that the lower cartridge bearing will fit smoothly, gently, snugly, and directly onto the top of the fork.

I hope I have all the right terminology.

I bought my SRAM Red gruppo from the LBS, and I've bought many small parts from the LBG (local bike garage, which mostly does servicing, not sales), so I know both those shops well, and I am on very good terms with the people in both those places. I got my carbon tubular rear tire patched up with Tufo sealant and it works fine now, so all I need is a new headset on this bike.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Have them install it and cut the steerer tube too...trust me.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I was planning on getting a used one off eBay and installing it myself.

As for cutting the steerer tube, that should be a fun challenge.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I was planning on getting a used one off eBay and installing it myself.
> 
> As for cutting the steerer tube, that should be a fun challenge.


A used headset? You can buy a new one for less than $50.00...and have the damn shop install it. Seeing all the questions you've been asking I seriously doubt your ability to do the job correctly.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

myhui said:


> I was planning on getting a used one off eBay and installing it myself.
> 
> As for cutting the steerer tube, that should be a fun challenge.


I hope you are joking. Sometimes humor does not translate so well on the internet.

Your questions indicate that you don't have a clue.

Looking at your photo I'm not convinced it's the wrong headset, it may just be that you don't need the crown race. 

Get help.


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## ericTheHalf (Apr 5, 2008)

myhui said:


> Here is the picture I took before I installed the fork. I am glad I found it, otherwise I would have to disassemble this part of the bicycle.
> 
> It's true that I don't have the headset's top cap pressing down onto the stem, because I have not cut the steerer tube yet, so it's too long right now to install the crown nut unless I put a lot of spacers below the top cap (which is indeed a viable but silly solution). But I do push the stem as hard as I can down onto the spacers before I tighten the pinch bolts to squeeze the stem tight onto the steerer tube. So that should be sufficient to keep the headset tight as long as the stem remains rigid and immobile against the steerer tube. I also used a screwdriver to tap the compression ring evenly onto the top bearing before I install the spacers and stem.
> 
> ...


Myhui, do you have a photo of the the headset assembled? That might be helpful.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

These should work, new:

Headset Accessories

Integrated

















I should be able to install these myself, since I already installed the ill-fitting ones myself and they work sort-of OK.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

ericTheHalf said:


> Myhui, do you have a photo of the the headset assembled? That might be helpful.


Yes, but it's all hidden underneath the carbon of the frame, so you won't see anything. It looks "flush" from the outside, as if the bike is properly fitted, and the bike rides just fine. I don't notice the wiggle when I'm riding, only when I'm lifting up the bike.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

myhui said:


> Yes, but it's all hidden underneath the carbon of the frame, so you won't see anything. It looks "flush" from the outside, as if the bike is properly fitted, and the bike rides just fine. I don't notice the wiggle when I'm riding, only when I'm lifting up the bike.


If you have actually ridden the bike, the fork may already be trashed.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Here is the view from the outside.

You are exaggerating when you say the fork is trashed.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

See, no stickers on my bike!


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## ericTheHalf (Apr 5, 2008)

myhui said:


> Here is the view from the outside.
> 
> You are exaggerating when you say the fork is trashed.


That is the shot I was looking for. I suspect the headset is fine and the problem is that the compression cap is not able to its job. When the cap is tightened it needs to press against the stem, or maybe a spacer above the stem in order to pull everything together. The stem bolts are then tightened. The wiggling is likely because the whole assembly is a bit loose.

You have a lot of spacers under you stem, maybe too many. Getting some professional help from your LBS certainly isn't a bad suggestion.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

No, the bottom race should not be at such a small diameter. It is just riding 1cm above the top of the fork, with nothing to support it from below. So, indeed, the way it is seated now makes it very likely that it is grinding away at that narrow piece of carbon.

As I mentioned above, the carbon piece that lowers onto the compression ring is binding against the steerer tube, so I need to solve that before the top cap can successfully push down onto the compression ring by way of the spacers and stem.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> No, the bottom race should not be at such a small diameter. It is just riding 1cm above the top of the fork, with nothing to support it from below. So, indeed, the way it is seated now makes it very likely that it is grinding away at that narrow piece of carbon.
> 
> As I mentioned above, the carbon piece that lowers onto the compression ring is binding against the steerer tube, so I need to solve that before the top cap can successfully push down onto the compression ring by way of the spacers and stem.


Headsets are pretty damn simple, IF you know what you're doing. If not, they can be quite the mystery. After reading your posts, I know what's going on w/ you...and it's not simple. Go to a shop and have an experienced mechanic sort this for you before you ruin your nifty new chinoise frame/fork and possibly your smile.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I know 100% what I'm doing except for how the headset is supposed to sit on this specific fork. Distilling the very much appreciated advice you guys have given me, I think that is the only piece of info I'm lacking.

I just rode that exact bike out to the local pizza joint a half mile away to see if I can feel any wiggling, and I cannot. So, it is not that bad. I suspect if I remove the CF piece on top of the compression ring and reseat that ring, and cut the steerer tube, and add the proper top cap with expander, then tighten everything up, it will feel perfect.

And yet, I don't want to run the bike like that, since I know, plainly, that the bottom cartridge bearing is not properly resting on the forks.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Here is the pizza joint.

I love this bike!


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Here is the drawing from Chris King's No Thread Set.









All I am concerned about is the thin metal interface between L and M for the headset I am using (which is not a Chris King, of course).

I used to be concerned about M being too thin in the vertical dimension (as you look at it in the diagram above), but now I look at my own photograph again, mine is at least 5mm thick, so there is a 5mm band encircling the steerer tube that supports the weight. It looks like Chris King's headset design is the same in this regard, so I think I can safely conclude that the headset I have is not deficient in this respect, thus agreeing with what ericTheHalf said earlier.

Now, back to the question I asked earlier: is M supposed to "ride" a few mm or even 1cm above the top of the fork, so M is intentionally smaller in diameter than the bottom of the steerer tube, so it "rides" high on the steerer tube? It seems like the answer could be "yes". But I don't know and that's what I am asking.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

You still haven't finished the damn cables and housing and it's been how long? You're building a bike, not a house. The whole project should have taken at most 2 hours. You know basically nothing about how to put a bike together and if you start riding that thing around you're gonna have some major problems. You've asked for advice and then ignored what people have offered. I'm done trying to tell you what you should do. I don't need to waste my time and experience on someone who asks for it then ignores it.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I have been riding that bike all over the place, including non-stop rides of over 40 minutes continuously on the saddle. The bike works fine, especially with tubular tires on both front and rear. The acceleration is phenomenal, but the angular momentum is lacking in those super-light wheels, so the moment I stop peddling, the wind blows me backwards real hard. I do have the parts to re-do the cables now, but I want to do the cables and headset replacement at the same time, to avoid re-work. I don't see the cables as being hazardous the way they are now. I do appreciate your worries over the cables being hazardous. But I assure you they are not hazardous.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

myhui said:


> I know 100% what I'm doing except for how the headset is supposed to sit on this specific fork.


So basically you don't know 100% what you're doing.

OP is stubborn and won't listen to the professional wrenches. Nothing more to see here. Carry on.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

myhui said:


> No, the bottom race should not be at such a small diameter. It is just riding 1cm above the top of the fork, with nothing to support it from below. So, indeed, the way it is seated now makes it very likely that it is grinding away at that narrow piece of carbon.
> 
> As I mentioned above, the carbon piece that lowers onto the compression ring is binding against the steerer tube, so I need to solve that before the top cap can successfully push down onto the compression ring by way of the spacers and stem.


The carbon cone spacer is SUPPOSED to "bind" against the steerer tube... it has an o-ring in it. That helps to hold the fork in the bike when you're working on it in the stand with the stem removed. It's supposed to be really tight.

And yes...if you have ridden the bike much at all, it is likely that there is now a stress crack/groove around the steerer tube where the bearing has been riding that will fail spectacularly at some point in the future, resulting in missing teeth, broken bones, and possibly sweet, sweet death.


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## DCash (Jun 20, 2012)

There is a local legend about the first person to buy a Chinese carbon frame: His fork snapped and he went over the bars at 40mph. He no longer cycles, has full dentures, and after two skin graphs almost his original nose.

The guys I saw riding Chinese carbon bikes all had Easton forks because of this story. 

This is the story I hear every time I tell someone I have a Hong Fu.

Most people haven't heard the part where he bought the wrong headset and filed down the carbon steering tube so it would fit. 

Please take your bike to a shop and have them cut the steering tube and properly install the headset. Tell them you rode the bike without the top cap and if they say the fork is bad, believe them. 

Your first bike build is a learning experience. Some things you learn before some you learn after.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I will soon disassemble this part of the bike and see what is going on.

No one has said so far how the crown race is supposed to sit on the steerer tube.

That is the information I'm seeking.

Can anyone comment on whether my conclusions about the Chris King headset is correct?

I need informed opinion, not directions on where to take my bike. If you don't have informed opinion, then please preface your remarks with that disclosure.


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

You can't possibly say that you know what you're doing when you're riding around on a bike with that much steerer tube and cables going every which way. I hope for your sake that those tubulars are glued correctly or else you're in for a whole bucket of fun when you roll one of those and snap your steerer tube.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I will soon disassemble this part of the bike and see what is going on.
> 
> No one has said so far how the crown race is supposed to sit on the steerer tube.
> 
> ...


I have a very informed opinion. The crown race is supposed to sit on the fork CROWN. Do you understand? That means all the way down the steerer, as far as it will go. That's why it's called a CROWN race. Jesus...


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## cmdrpiffle (Mar 28, 2006)

Myhui, you're being an ass. You asked for help, and received some very good advice, mainly, and not limited to: take it to a shop that knows what they're doing. 

_"Can anyone comment on whether my conclusions about the Chris King headset is correct?

I need informed opinion, not directions on where to take my bike. If you don't have informed opinion, then please preface your remarks with that disclosure."_

You've been getting informed opinion, well informed. One of those opinions was to take it to a shop since you've subtly demonstrated you really don't understand what you're doing.
Nobody on an internet forum is going to be able to tell you exactly what you need since you've never supplied complete information on anything. You respond to serious questions with ' oh look, here's the pizza shop'? 

Rant off :thumbsup:


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

myhui said:


> I will soon disassemble this part of the bike and see what is going on.
> 
> No one has said so far *how the crown race is supposed to sit on the steerer tube.*
> 
> ...


YOU DON'T F##KING USE ONE!!!!1

The fork has an integrated crown race. You DO NOT use another one. If you had a normal fork, you would use a slide hammer-like tool to seat the crown race all of the way to the bottom of the steerer tube/top of the fork crown. In other words, it would occupy the space that your carbon "race" is currently occupying.

With the current idiotic setup, you'll never have a tight headset, as the redundant crown race will keep moving (and cutting into the steerer tube) and causing the headset to get loose again and again. I would suspect that sweet, sweet death would occur before it loosened 3 times, though.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

A while ago I proposed that we have a ranking system for threads - in different categories of course, so that there would be top 10 threads in each. Could be "most humorous", "most futile", "most idiotic" etc. Would help to while away the time during the long winter evenings.

Meanwhile, I'll just have to bookmark my favorites. Thanks Platy and all - OP too of course.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Ah, so now we finally are getting your informed opinion.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> The carbon cone spacer is SUPPOSED to "bind" against the steerer tube... it has an o-ring in it. That helps to hold the fork in the bike when you're working on it in the stand with the stem removed.


Thank you for that opinion.

In the case of my bike, there is no o-ring. It is just manufacturing tolerance that cause the binding. So I thought there is no need for that binding, since it prevents the top cap from pushing down onto the compression ring.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> YOU DON'T F##KING USE ONE!!!!1
> 
> The fork has an integrated crown race. You DO NOT use another one.


I'm not sure the specific fork I showed in my picture really has an integrated crown race.

I'll assume it does, and try a headset meant for those types of forks to see how it fits.


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

You seem to be pretty resistant to going a shop and having someone who knows what they are doing fix this problem for you. If that's the case, at least email the manufacturer of the frame/fork to ask them. They make the thing so they should be able to help you out more than a bunch of random dudes on the internet who have never seen your bike in person.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The fork, frame, and headset were sold as a kit that is meant to fit each other.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I trust you guys as much as I trust the LBS.

I don't want to go off topic, but there was this mildly funny scenario where the junior staff at the LBG (G for garage) called his boss on the phone to ask a question on my behalf, and the junior staff ended his call by telling his boss that "no, this guy likes to do everything himself".


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## DCash (Jun 20, 2012)

myhui said:


> Thank you for that opinion.
> 
> In the case of my bike, there is no o-ring. It is just manufacturing tolerance that cause the binding. So I thought there is no need for that binding, since it prevents the top cap from pushing down onto the compression ring.


Is the inside lined with rubber? Have you cut the fork, installed the expander nut, torqued the top cap and stem in place? Have you removed some of the 100mm(?) of spacers under the stem? 



myhui said:


> I'm not sure the specific fork I showed in my picture really has an integrated crown race.


I'd put $100 that it doesn't.



myhui said:


> I'll assume it does, and try a headset meant for those types of forks to see how it fits.


So you're willing to spend money on a part based on the opinion of someone looking at poorly lit picture on his phone but refuse to take it to the bike shop? 



myhui said:


> I trust you guys as much as I trust the LBS.


None of us would ride your bike in it's current state. All would agree you are dealing with something a little beyond your knowledge and need a hands-on second opinion.



myhui said:


> I don't want to go off topic, but there was this mildly funny scenario where the junior staff at the LBG (G for garage) called his boss on the phone to ask a question on my behalf, and the junior staff ended his call by telling his boss that "no, this guy likes to do everything himself".


Oh, you're _that_ guy.


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## davcruz (Oct 9, 2007)

I have an idea and I am surprised no one mentioned it yet.

How about you review the technical documents for your frame/fork they should list the exact style headset your fork requires. Oh, I bet you don't have any of those documents for your frame do you. Next idea, contact the manufacturer for technical support to determine what headset you need and whether you require a crown race or it is integral. Oh, I bet you can't do that either...


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I'll ask for the drawings for the fork.

But the manufacturer was claiming that this headset fits this fork.

I did not choose the headset myself.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm still experimenting with handlebar height, so I don't want to cut the fork yet.

I love riding my bike!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

If this is a troll I'll give credit where it's due.....hats off, nice work.

If you're for real, oh man, you're a special one.


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## DCash (Jun 20, 2012)

myhui said:


> I'm still experimenting with handlebar height, so I don't want to cut the fork yet.
> 
> I love riding my bike!


Maximum recommended spacers for a carbon fork is 40mm! You are asking online advice because you don't trust the part that holds your front end together. You are missing the expander plug and top cap or have them install so far above the stem they don't matter. You are basically riding with a 4" tube pointed straight at your face/neck/chest. Picture is too dark to see all you cables but whatever is going on with the rear derailleur is wrong!

I looked at you older post and saw that you built a bike for and ride with your daughter. 

Please finish your bike before riding it again.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I'll disassemble the front end this weekend. The crown race may have slid down the steerer tube to rest on top of the fork. If it is there now, then I'm all set and I'll leave it like that.


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## davcruz (Oct 9, 2007)

myhui said:


> I'll ask for the drawings for the fork.
> 
> But the manufacturer was claiming that this headset fits this fork.
> 
> I did not choose the headset myself.


I was being quite sarcastic sir. Being a China knock-off frame it does not have documentation or technical support channels...you are your own tech support when you buy one of these frames, that is why they are so cheap, they have no overhead, I'd be surprised if some of the sellers have a working phone.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

They do supply drawings for their components.

Please, guys, stay on topic.

I'm the only one who can go off topic.


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## Kenrow (Dec 21, 2010)

:crazy::crazy:


RaptorTC said:


> You can't possibly say that you know what you're doing when you're riding around on a bike with that much steerer tube and cables going every which way.


Cut the OP some slack, this isn't his first build  : http://forums.roadbikereview.com/components-wrenching/re-building-felt-f24-my-child-290575.html

His intentions seem well placed but it does appear he might lack the skill/knowledge needed.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I use short pieces of rope to tie the full length cable housings to the frame of my daughter's bike.

Ready to faint in unison?


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## Kenrow (Dec 21, 2010)

Maybe this will help 
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/storage/insidetech/items/EN_40208726-3a50-4467-89af-51b9ecda3fe0_ZS074-Headset_Instructions_v3.pdf

I believe many of the Chinese no name brands use this headset.
NECO-Chiih Chinn Industry Co., Ltd.

Read Post #2795
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bi...ect-version-5-0-a-241785-112.html#post3479581


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The headset is properly seated on the steerer tube. There is a notch on the steerer tube where the crown race is resting on. So it's putting pressure on exactly the right spot. The picture was taken tonight, after having rode the bike for twenty hours at least since new with no adjustments made to the headset.

The headset has the markings TH INDUSTRIES 1.5" ACB 36[SUP]o[/SUP] 45[SUP]o[/SUP] 073#

I should have just taken the damn thing apart and showed you guys this picture on the first post of this thread, and say that it's working fine instead of say it's not working fine.

The crown race slips into the cartridge bearing when the headset is loaded. I didn't know that would happen. So now, with the whole thing compressed, it looks much more "normal" compared to what I showed earlier with each individual piece brand new that has never been pressed together before.

Here is the high-res picture hosted on photobucket:

https://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac305/myhui/IMG_0714.jpg


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Thank you for the FSA headset instructions. They give a lot of detail on how the fork may (just may) need to be filed smooth in order to properly seat the crown race.

On post 2795, after I bring up the Neco headset picture, I notice that the bottom race is similar in shape to the one I have, and it is just as thin too.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

DCash said:


> Is the inside lined with rubber?


I just checked that tonight again and indeed there are two o-rings inside the CF piece that pushes down onto the compression ring. It's designed to grip the steerer tube, as another poster said earlier.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Bravo Sir! I think you know pretty much there is to know. I think it's time to build a mountain bike.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Witty comments aside,

I'm not able to reconcile the disassembled picture showing the lower bearing about 1cm high, with the assembled picture where everything looks OK. ie Why isn't there a 1 cm gap?

A picture shot up at an angle from below of the empty headtube to show the cup might shed some light.

But something is not right.


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## lbkwak (Feb 22, 2012)

Wow.

You have a kid. Your safety is not just for you. Think before you ride that thing.

1. You are not suppose to ride your bike before cutting the steer and set the preload.

2. Your crown race is sitting on the fork's integrated crown race. 

3. Maximum steer length of 3~4cm is usual for carbon forks.

4. If you have used starnut, replace your fork.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

You guys are just insatiable ...

I'll try to line up a "somebody" around this area to do an on camera critique of the headset and fork. It may never happen, but that is what I think the next step should be.

I live in Lake Forest, CA.

Feel free to suggest a luminary to do this on camera review.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The reason the lower bearing looks normal is because after the whole thing has been assembled and put under compression, the crown race's top edge goes into the bearing slightly, hence the whole assembly now looks and works just fine.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

myhui said:


> The reason the lower bearing looks normal is because after the whole thing has been assembled and put under compression, the crown race's top edge goes into the bearing slightly, hence the whole assembly now looks and works just fine.


Let's pretend that's true. I'd like you to look at the following diagrams and tell me what you think has happened.

This is a press fit fork crown. There is a special tool that cuts these that bike shops have, so all press fit crowns of the same diameter are the same shape. They have parallel sides and square inside edge:







A real one:







Here's another one with the crown race about to be hammered down onto it:








Now here's an integrated fork crown, where the crown race at the bearing sits on is molded into the carbon and has about a 45 degree chamfer:







And here is what a real one looks like:








And now here's what you posted:







I've added some highlights for you. 
Green is the width of the base of the crown, measured that the red marks.
Yellow is the width of the inside diameter of the crown race. I've put the Green crown width next to it for comparison.
The two purple lines are the apparent shape of the base of the crown, which look like an integrated headset with 45 degree beveled sides.


Here's the site that has this sort of information
Headset Fit Finder

*So, if your fork has a beveled, 45 degree crown, like an integrated headset; and press fit crown forks have parallel sides, which kind of fork do you have?*


Keep in mind that crown races are as hard as a knife and have a sharply machined edge, and that carbon fiber is about as tough as hard wood and as dense as pine. So saying that it must be okay since the race couldn't have possibly gone over the wide integrated crown is wrong - your body weight is more than enough to slice and crush the carbon until the crown race bottoms out.

Also keep in mind that your carbon frame maker doesn't make headsets. They get the headsets from another company, and that company may include crown races whether they are needed or not, and the frame maker may not bother to open the bag and take the unnecessary crown race out when they package the frame.


I think, like nearly everyone else here, you destroyed your fork when you smashed the unnecessary steel crown race down on the soft carbon integrated race when you rode the bike, after ignoring everyone's advice. That critical juncture of steerer tube and fork crown has likely been scraped and crushed to the point that only a tiny portion of its original strength still exists. This will severely injure you when it fails.

We could all certainly be wrong, but why would you take that chance with your life?


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

My fork looks to be a press-fit type with parallel sides.

The fork's design could have been made "dual purpose", so that it can work with either standard, even though one standard would have to be at a larger diameter to the other one so that they don't interfere with each other.

The fork looks fine. Here are close-up pictures, thanks to the macro mode on my HTC One phone.

_( All my numerous camera equipment cannot do macro as well as this phone camera can, so I use the phone camera. I do have a beautiful Canon FD-mount macro lens, but that mates to a film camera body, not a digital camera body. The FD-mount 85mm f/1.2 "L" lens is my preferred lens for taking portraits, but it won't do macro. All my daughter's baby pictures were taken with that 85mm lens, and they look gorgeous. I bought that 85mm lens used from a nearby camera store, and that store is still around, and they processed all the baby pictures I took of my daughter on their E-6 line. )_

The fork crown looks fine. Notice the bottom of the steel crown race is at a 90 degree angle to its sides, but the transition is done with a radius rather than done with a sharp 90 degree edge.









This is how the frame and fork manufacturer suggests I install the headset that they also supplied to me.

Notice that the top of the steel crown race is at 45 degrees (approx.), and it mates perfectly with the bottom of the bearing cartridge. I was wrong when I said that it was a thin steel band that mates with the bottom of the bearing cartridge. The mating method shown in the pictures do give plenty of surface area to distribute the load.






























This is how Kontact suggests I install the headset, although Kontact was assuming (based on bad pictures) that my fork had an integrated crown race, which it may well have, but the headset I have is designed for a press fit fork:
















The above configuration produces some looseness in the fit, and the bottom bearing is not mating with the 45 degree portion of the integrated crown race that this fork seems to have as well. If I get a headset meant for an integrated crown race and make sure it is the right diameter to fit the (apparent) integrated crown race present on this fork, then I suppose that is an alternative that can work.

_( The concert tonight at Royce Hall in UCLA was fantastic. Two jazz giants leading a bunch of young-uns. )_


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

lbkwak said:


> Wow.
> 
> You have a kid. Your safety is not just for you. Think before you ride that thing.


I ride that bike side-by-side with my kid, and that's one of the most fun things I've ever done. She keeps complaining that why is her bike always heavier than my bike. Sigh ... So then the Amtrak luggage handler lifts my bike up from the ground to the luggage car, and freaks out over how light it is. Despite that disadvantage, my kid can out-accelerate me anytime. My body weight plus my bike weight is still a lot heavier than my kid's combined weight. My wild guess is US$500k worth of tooling can get you a 24" carbon tubular wheel and a "kid's size" carbon frame for that wheel. Then you go door to door on a VW camper van to sell that over-the-top kid's carbon bike to all the ultra-high-end bike stores in the rich neighborhoods.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

It looks to me like your fork is designed to have a crown race pressed on, then the bearing. There are no 'dual-purpose' forks that can either work w/ a crown race or not...they don't exist. 
There are special tools (the CRS1 shown in Kontact's photo) made just for setting crown races. You obviously don't have nor know how to use one, so I'm worried that your fork is damaged from basically riding the crown race into position. 
You obviously also have a family, but don't seem to be to concerned about staying alive for them. This also leads me to believe that you are most likely one of the biggest trolls ever seen on this forum...or you're just plain stupid. Or a good helping of both. I cannot understand why any 'normal' person would avoid taking something like this to a bike shop when there are probably dozens within easy driving distance. My advice to you is to stop riding that bike immediately, don't make any smart-ass "I love riding my un-finished bike" comments and take the damn thing to a good mechanic and have him check out the fork and finish whatever else you've left in a half-ass state.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The crown race slipped into place when I installed it. The fit was tight, as I expect it should be. But no it wasn't seated by riding the bike. It was seated by hand upon first install.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

DCash said:


> There is a local legend about the first person to buy a Chinese carbon frame: His fork snapped and he went over the bars at 40mph. He no longer cycles ...


I didn't need to do any mechanical modifications to the fork when I slipped the correct crown race onto the steerer tube in the correct orientation and it fit snugly.

In that situation, there is no need for me to ask my LBS for help with that part of the build even though I asked them for help in some other parts of my build, and there is no need for me to stop using the fork that came with the frame and switch to an Easton carbon fiber fork just because someone else's fork failed after he made modifications.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> YOU DON'T F##KING USE ONE!!!!1
> 
> The fork has an integrated crown race. You DO NOT use another one.


The fork does not have an integrated crown race, so I need to use a steel crown race.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Tachycardic said:


> Bravo Sir! I think you know pretty much there is to know. I think it's time to build a mountain bike.


I don't have the time or the guts to go mountain biking. I do love to ski downhill on state of the art, super stiff Volkl skis though. But falling on even hard packed snow is still easier to take than falling on a narrow mountain trail lined with boulders and cactus.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

bikerjulio said:


> Witty comments aside,
> 
> I'm not able to reconcile the disassembled picture showing the lower bearing about 1cm high, with the assembled picture where everything looks OK. ie Why isn't there a 1 cm gap?


The bottom 1cm of the steerer tube has parallel sides, so the crown race slips down past that section and rests snugly on the top of the fork.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I don't use a top cap and expander on top of the steerer tube while I'm riding the bike since those parts are only necessary for installation of the headset. Once the clamp bolts are tight on the stem, I remove the top cap and expander.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

myhui said:


> I don't use a top cap and expander on top of the steerer tube while I'm riding the bike since those parts are only necessary for installation of the headset. Once the clamp bolts are tight on the stem, I remove the top cap and expander.


The expander is there to take the crush force from the stem. Without it, your steerer tube may crack and fail.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> The expander is there to take the crush force from the stem. Without it, your steerer tube may crack and fail.


Now I see your point.

It is much like how a cylinder is much stronger if there are end plates as opposed to just hollow at both ends.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> I cannot understand why any 'normal' person would avoid taking something like this to a bike shop when there are probably dozens within easy driving distance. My advice to you is to stop riding that bike immediately, don't make any smart-ass "I love riding my un-finished bike" comments and take the damn thing to a good mechanic and have him check out the fork and finish whatever else you've left in a half-ass state.


The purpose of my question was to canvass your opinions.

If I want the opinion of the LBS, I would go ask them, which I have, but that's a different discussion altogether.

I do love riding my bike. That part is absolutely true.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Here is the manufacturer of the headset I have: TH INDUSTRIES

Here is their FAQ page: TH INDUSTRIES-FAQ

At the end of the second page they describe several popular standards. The one I have is the Cane Creek standard with 36[SUP]o[/SUP] x 45[SUP]o[/SUP] faces. I don't know exactly which model I have.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Here is a good top cap to use with carbon steerer tubes:

FSA TH 881CF 1 Carbon Steerer Expander Plug Top Cap 1 1 8" Black | eBay


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I don't use a top cap and expander on top of the steerer tube while I'm riding the bike since those parts are only necessary for installation of the headset. Once the clamp bolts are tight on the stem, I remove the top cap and expander.


You. Are. An. Idiot.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> You. Are. An. Idiot.


The steerer tube showed no sign of wear whatsoever after twenty hours of use in this "open-ended" mode.

I have my empirical data. And you ... you only have your hot air?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> The steerer tube showed no sign of wear whatsoever after twenty hours of use in this "open-ended" mode.
> 
> I have my empirical data. And you ... you only have your hot air?


You have nothing more than 20hrs of good luck. I have 20 years of experience at the highest levels of the sport. I win.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I wonder if the Boeing 787's fuselage, made of carbon fiber, will crack if the bulkhead sections are removed? Yeah, I suppose it will be a lot weaker.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

myhui said:


> I wonder if the Boeing 787's fuselage, made of carbon fiber, will crack if the bulkhead sections are removed? Yeah, I suppose it will be a lot weaker.


You didn't know what the top cap was for, but now you're a composite expert????

A fool isn't someone who doesn't know, it's someone who refuses to learn.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I knew it was for pressing down onto the stem, but never thought that it also served to prevent the steerer tube from being crushed by the stem's clamp bolts.

It is indeed true that a cylinder with rigidly attached end caps is much stronger than one with its end left hollow. I was trying to illustrate that principle with my reference to the 787. It has no relationship to whether it is constructed of carbon fiber or not.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Kontact said:


> You didn't know what the top cap was for


This is the type of argument I learned not to make if I don't want to be caught out as being ignorant of prior statements made in the proceedings.


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## High-Roller (May 29, 2011)

You should quit while your (sort of) ahead. You are trying to go against a bunch of experienced mechanics, and you aren't going to win. If you go into this industry, you need to understand the guys in this field with lots of experience know alot more than you do. We are happy to help, just don't be a dick. We are trying to keep you from trashing your china crap frame and your body potentially.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

myhui said:


> I knew it was for pressing down onto the stem, but never thought that it also served to prevent the steerer tube from being crushed by the stem's clamp bolts.
> 
> It is indeed true that a cylinder with rigidly attached end caps is much stronger than one with its end left hollow. I was trying to illustrate that principle with my reference to the 787. It has no relationship to whether it is constructed of carbon fiber or not.


My point, which you are again missing, is that there are clearly large holes in both your procedural knowledge of modern bike mechanics, but also in the theory of how this stuff is engineered.

A well trained mechanic doesn't have to understand why stuff works - they just do things by the book. A really gifted craftsman might not know what the manual says, but has an intuitive understanding of the materials and basic parts to avoid creating dangerous assemblies.

You are currently neither of those type of people. You're operating on personal theories (like about what top caps are for) that you don't have any basis for having, and don't have the mechanical sense to realize that things are often more complicated than what your limited experience has led you to believe.


There is a ton of excellent education material and manuals on the internet that a new mechanic might take advantage of to learn the basics. And until you have a much greater amount of experience than you now have, you need to stick to the procedures in those manuals like Moses brought them down off a mountain. 

Stopping arguing and telling yourself you're smart enough - you're not. Bikes are pretty tough, but ONLY if they are assembled correctly. When they aren't, the delicate, light weight materials can quickly become damaged in a way that is not immediately visible. That's why composite airplanes are frequently X-rayed - the internal cracks aren't detectable by eye or staining techniques that work on metals.

And just so you're clear on who you're talking to, Platy is a shop owner and mechanic, CX is a shop and pro race mechanic, and I'm former mechanic, service manager and military pilot. We're not being insulting because we're territorial - we're trying to get your attention and warn other newbies reading this thread that this stuff is serious and potentially lethal if you get it wrong. Bicycles aren't toys - any vehicle that can go 50 mph down a reasonably steep hill and shares roads with cars must be assembled with the same care as a motorcycle or an airplane.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Kontact said:


> My point, which you are again missing, is that there are clearly large holes in both your procedural knowledge of modern bike mechanics, but also in the theory of how this stuff is engineered.
> 
> A well trained mechanic doesn't have to understand why stuff works - they just do things by the book. A really gifted craftsman might not know what the manual says, but has an intuitive understanding of the materials and basic parts to avoid creating dangerous assemblies.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that post, you're much better at putting our similar thoughts to words than I am. I could never come close to putting as succinctly as you just did. Many :thumbsup:


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

myhui said:


> I know 100% what I'm doing except for how the headset is supposed to sit on this specific fork.


You don't know 100% what you're doing. You're setting yourself up for broken carbon and / or bones. I hope you can get this fixed before that becomes an issue.

1. A crown race should not go on easily. It needs to be installed with a fair bit of effort. Here's an example of how it's done.
Crown Race Installation - YouTube

I use a PVC pipe with the appropriate internal diameter instead of the 'tamp' shown in the video.

I can't tell if your crown race is the correct size or not, but you could measure the internal diameter of the crown race to know for sure!

2. Clearly, the fork needs to be cut. It's as easy as getting a fine tooth hacksaw (>32 tpi) and a mitre box to keep the cut straight.

3. Please reduce the number of spacers you have under the stem. Many manufacturers (Easton, 3T, etc.) recommend that you have no more than 8cm of steer tube above the headset . It's just not safe. I would guess that your stem clamp is well above that.

4. The top compression cap is generally necessary to take out the small amount of 'play' that you can feel.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The crown race feels snug against the steerer tube when I slipped it on by hand without doing any modifications to anything.

I have total spacer height of 2-1/4 inches. That is right on the limit.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I learned a lot from most of your posts, as have hundreds of other readers, so please keep the good vibes going.

Having multiple builds represented here gives other readers a big advantage, as it shows how a procedure may differ slightly when you do it at home compared to how it is described here: If your crown race feels snug against the steerer tube but does not need to be tapped down like it is done in the video, then that is fine too.

I suspect, right there, I'll catch some grieve over just how snug the crown race should be, as this is an interference fit, so there is a spec on how much interference should there be.

Let me recall a conversation I had with my neighbor when he asked me what the water pressure in my house should be at, when I suggested 50psi and he wasn't sure that was the correct pressure. My answer to him was: set it to whatever you want it to be.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Like I said earlier: to be useful to the community, please stay on topic. You, sir, haven't made your point in a quantitative manner. Please edit your post and try again.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Show us a single reference to a crown race or any other interference fit where hand pressure is sufficient. It isn't, and you are just making this crap up.

If it were up to me, I'd ban you and edit out your horrid misinformation as a public service to anyone who might mistake the stupidity you've posted here for reality.

If you want to just make things up as you go, switch to cooking.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I made up the interference fit requirement. I admit to that.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

myhui said:


> I made up the interference fit requirement. I admit to that.


That's stupid. Please keep that sort of crappola to yourself.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

It was beston who said that it should be an interference fit. Use your logic, lad.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

myhui said:


> It was beston who said that it should be an interference fit. Use your logic, lad.


It IS an interference fit. You invented the slip on crown race. 

If the race goes on without a hammer, something's wrong. Your uneducated opinion doesn't change reality.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

But I suspect not for a carbon fiber steerer tube. The video showed a metallic steerer tube.

Carbon fiber is very brittle, so I believe having too much interference is bad. Hence just a snug fit will do. If I had a fork with an integrated crown race, then I won't need to worry about this at all.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> But I suspect not for a carbon fiber steerer tube. The video showed a metallic steerer tube.
> 
> Carbon fiber is very brittle, so I believe having too much interference is bad. Hence just a snug fit will do. If I had a fork with an integrated crown race, then I won't need to worry about this at all.


Please see my post at the top of this page. You are an idiot, a troll, and are somehow surviving by blind sh*thouse luck. You need to hammer a crown race onto ANY fork, regardless of material. Steel, Aluminum, Carbon...doesn't matter. You should NEVER be able to slide a crown race on by hand. I'd ban your trolling *ss too...but it'll never happen because the mods on this site are basically non-existent. Just do us responsible types a favor and quit telling us what you're doing. Someone that doesn't know any better might just mistake your drivel for real advice.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Pictures from this morning.

The Felt has the Microshift short reach controls.

I've ordered the saw guide and blade from Park Tools to cut the steerer tube. Meanwhile, the integrated expander and top cap work well, squeezing down on the compression ring really tight and all signs of play disappears. I removed the two o-rings from inside the carbon piece that squeezes down onto the compression ring to reduce binding, since that gets in the way of the top cap pushing down onto the stack. I know, the o-rings are there to make it somewhat water proof as well as to "prevent the fork from dropping out once you loosen the stem clamp bolts", but I don't need it to be water proof and I don't need it to prevent the fork from dropping out once I loosen the stem clamp bolts.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

The maximum spacer stack is 40mm between the top of the headset and the bottom of the stem.

But you knew that, of course.


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

interesting use of black duct tape. ...The signs of a seasoned mechanic!

Is the front shifter cable installed?

I'd trim up the cable housing going to the rear brake to reduce cable friction. Actually, there are a lot of things that I'd do differently here (starting with the use of duct tape)


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Kontact said:


> The maximum spacer stack is 40mm between the top of the headset and the bottom of the stem.
> 
> But you knew that, of course.


Yes, the LBG mechanic told me that too.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

beston said:


> interesting use of black duct tape. ...The signs of a seasoned mechanic!
> 
> Is the front shifter cable installed?
> 
> I'd trim up the cable housing going to the rear brake to reduce cable friction. Actually, there are a lot of things that I'd do differently here (starting with the use of duct tape)


There is no front der and no front der cable.

The rear brake cable is like that to minimize the cable pushing down onto the brake.

The duct tape aligns the housing with the entry into the down tube.


----------



## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

myhui said:


> The rear brake cable is like that to minimize the cable pushing down onto the brake.
> 
> The duct tape aligns the housing with the entry into the down tube.


Both are unnecessary (and not necessarily true either). 
-With appropriate brake installation and cable length, the brake will not move due to the force of housing.
-Duct tape has never been 'needed' (until now) to align housing with the tube. Again, with the right length of cable, you'll magically eliminate the need for duct tape.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I agree with you on both points.

But given the limited time and budget I have, I'll go riding like this for a while, and then clean it up later.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

myhui said:


> I agree with you on both points.
> 
> But given the limited time and budget I have, I'll go riding like this for a while, and then clean it up later.


Jeebus


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

You should NOT BE RIDING THAT BIKE W/ THE STEERER TUBE THAT FAR ABOVE THE STEM. I will only tell you once...it's dangerous. There is nothing supporting the steerer tube internally. The mechanical expander does 2 things...it allows you to adjust the headset properly AND it supports the steerer tube. The steerer tube that at this point is being subjected to much more force than it should be because you have too many spacers under your stem. 

Cut your housing to proper length and get rid of the damn duct tape. And while you're at it, stop pretending to be a mechanic before someone gets hurt.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> And while you're at it, stop pretending to be a mechanic before someone gets hurt.


I do appreciate your advice ... really I do.

But I date back to the dark ages when men were men and modems were half duplex. This new-fangled world of having a Kelly blue book value for your bike and documentation for its providence is completely foreign to me. Maybe I don't hang out with rich-enough folks to discuss those issues regularly.

I have always fixed my own bike since I was a wee lad. Besides, I'm aiming to only live 15 more years, so I have a bucket list just like everyone else does, and working on my own bike is on that list.

But, really now ... After I closed the top of the steerer tube with the proper expander, and tightened the headset stack properly, and noting that the stem clamp's shape conforms to the tube's shape, I suspect your worries of the steerer tube being over-stressed are overblown.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

tihsepa said:


> Jeebus


I do have a day job and other hobbies.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

My rear der cable entered the right side of the tube while the control is also on the right side. That was my mistake. It should enter the left side of the tube.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I do appreciate your advice ... really I do.
> 
> But I date back to the dark ages when men were men and modems were half duplex. This new-fangled world of having a Kelly blue book value for your bike and documentation for its providence is completely foreign to me. Maybe I don't hang out with rich-enough folks to discuss those issues regularly.
> 
> ...


Again...I've been doing this a long time at a pretty high level. My worries are definitely not 'overblown'. You may be planning on another 15 years, but you'll be luck to make it 15 weeks if you keep riding that bike like it's set up now. 
Seriously...why on earth would i spout crap if it wasn't fact? I probably wouldn't give 2 sh*ts if you didn't have a kid, but you're being a 'wee' bit irresponsible, using a word you'd understand.


----------



## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

Just let darwin sort em out.


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## BikeInCanada (Jul 23, 2013)

This rocks.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

And I'm a Canadian too!


----------



## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

myhui said:


> My rear der cable entered the right side of the tube while the control is also on the right side. That was my mistake. It should enter the left side of the tube.


Not a mistake. This was one of the few things that you got right! Most Frames are designed such that the cable routing should be routed to the same side of the shifters.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

myhui said:


> And I'm a Canadian too!


But yes, that explains a lot 

Good job :thumbsup:


----------



## BikeInCanada (Jul 23, 2013)

bikerjulio said:


> But yes, that explains a lot
> 
> Good job :thumbsup:


Uh ... Huh? Lets not paint all of us with the same brush, thank you.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> And I'm a Canadian too!


Which one...Terrance or Phillip?


----------



## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

This just turned into the best thread on the Intertubez today.....


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

the mayor said:


> This just turned into the best thread on the Intertubez today.....


I ate black pepper bacon this morning. It was out of this world delicious.


----------



## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

myhui said:


> I ate black pepper bacon this morning. It was out of this world delicious.


Normally, I would congratulate you on the bacon...especially peppered.
But after following your follies on this thread....I'm sure you some how screwed up the bacon too.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

beston said:


> Not a mistake. This was one of the few things that you got right! Most Frames are designed such that the cable routing should be routed to the same side of the shifters.


I said that based on two observations:

1) The cable exits the handlebar about 3cm off center, so right now it is doing almost a u-turn to get into the down tube on the same side. The cable will bend less if it enters the down tube on the other side.

2) I read somewhere that the shift cables must not cross more than once as they go through the down tube. That is of course obvious. But that also gave me this idea that maybe cables should cross. The rear der cable goes into the right side chain stay. But I don't use a front der anyway, so there is only one cable in the down tube.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

myhui said:


> The steerer tube showed no sign of wear whatsoever after twenty hours of use in this "open-ended" mode.
> 
> I have my empirical data. And you ... you only have your hot air?


OK, but just make sure your hospital has an internet connection you can use and you have a tablet. We can chat with you while you are there recovering


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

myhui said:


> Pictures from this morning.
> 
> The Felt has the Microshift short reach controls.
> 
> I've ordered the saw guide and blade from Park Tools to cut the steerer tube. Meanwhile, the integrated expander and top cap work well, squeezing down on the compression ring really tight and all signs of play disappears. I removed the two o-rings from inside the carbon piece that squeezes down onto the compression ring to reduce binding, since that gets in the way of the top cap pushing down onto the stack. I know, the o-rings are there to make it somewhat water proof as well as to "prevent the fork from dropping out once you loosen the stem clamp bolts", but I don't need it to be water proof and I don't need it to prevent the fork from dropping out once I loosen the stem clamp bolts.


All that money on lite carbon and you put downhill mtn bike pedals on it???


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> All that money on lite carbon and you put downhill mtn bike pedals on it???


All a part of the wind-up.

All the best comedians are Canadian.


----------



## BikeInCanada (Jul 23, 2013)

bikerjulio said:


> All a part of the wind-up.
> 
> All the best comedians are Canadian.


Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad ....


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

bikerjulio said:


> But yes, that explains a lot
> 
> Good job :thumbsup:





myhui said:


> And I'm a Canadian too!





BikeInCanada said:


> Uh ... Huh? Lets not paint all of us with the same brush, thank you.


Yeah, I just painted you that way with your user name. Sorry, it's just hard not to associate you with him now. But you can still redeem yourself if you guys "up there" can win the Stanley Cup this year.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

bikerjulio said:


> But yes, that explains a lot
> 
> Good job :thumbsup:





myhui said:


> And I'm a Canadian too!





BikeInCanada said:


> Uh ... Huh? Lets not paint all of us with the same brush, thank you.





ziscwg said:


> All that money on lite carbon and you put downhill mtn bike pedals on it???





bikerjulio said:


> All a part of the wind-up.
> 
> All the best comedians are Canadian.





BikeInCanada said:


> Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad ....


I guess so. Those pedals are great at scraping shins because they assume you are wearing knee shin guards when riding. Then, there's the shoes. I would not call them stiff by any means. I'd call them firm running shoes. 

I would drop out of a group ride with someone with those pedals. Any crash and those things are dangerous.

This has got to be some kind of prank as there are just too many things that are dangerous.


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## BikeInCanada (Jul 23, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> Yeah, I just painted you that way with your user name. Sorry, it's just hard not to associate you with him now. But you can still redeem yourself if you guys "up there" can win the Stanley Cup this year.


Fair enough 

And I'd love for a Canadian team to win the cup but it's not likely to happen. Doh.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> Yeah, I just painted you that way with your user name. Sorry, it's just hard not to associate you with him now. But you can still redeem yourself if you guys "up there" can win the Stanley Cup this year.





BikeInCanada said:


> Uh ... Huh? Lets not paint all of us with the same brush, thank you.


+1 on redeeming yourself as your Calgary Flames let my Sharks win on Saturday. It was really fun as the Flames seemed to always have a guy in the penalty box.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> +1 on redeeming yourself as you Calgary Flames let my Sharks win on Saturday. It was really fun as the Flames seemed to always have a guy in the penalty box.


A fellow Sharks fan? I always knew you were a good guy!:thumbsup:


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I have nothing meaningful to add to this thread, so I'll just say I love riding my bike, too.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I used LOOK clip-on pedals in 1998, then switched to Speedplay a few years later, and after that I went back to leather straps on cage pedals.

For this bike, I wanted something basic just to get it on the road.

I have bought a set of leather straps, but the mounting holes for the toe clips don't match these pedals. Otherwise I would have put the leather straps on.

There is nothing wrong in my mind with mixing components from different worlds of cycling.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I used LOOK clip-on pedals in 1998, then switched to Speedplay a few years later, and after that I went back to leather straps on cage pedals.
> 
> For this bike, I wanted something basic just to get it on the road.
> 
> ...


All righty then...you come back 5 weeks later to post that?


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> All righty then...you come back 5 weeks later to post that?


We all have our limits.

In my day job, we are doing the year end employee evaluations now. I think mine just finished. So I wanted to give this forum a break while upper management painfully analyzes every post I make here to try to find something good or bad in it.

I'm going to cut my carbon steerer tube this afternoon using the proper saw blade and saw guide I just bought new from Park Tools.

I try to do everything in moderation, but I never succeed.

CxWrench is right most of the time, except when he says I'm completely wrong, and then we have a little friendly debate.

Thirty hours on a too-long steerer tube and no cracks so far.

Remember that math genius who gave out criticism in three degrees: wrong, completely wrong, and not even wrong.

I hope I only fall into the first category sporadically, and never ever into the second or third categories.

My daughter can say Epic Fail in a really cute voice. I thought I would record it for all you guys to hear, but she says it is for my ears only.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Here are the photos for cutting the steerer tube. Boy that dust is nasty. I forgot to drape a wet paper towel over the whole thing. I quickly went to grab a breathing mask before continuing the cutting. The saw blade has this random pattern instead of a regular sawtooth pattern. That's interesting.

I clamped the saw guide to a piece of Ikea table frame with the table top removed. It worked just fine.

Before cutting:








After cutting:








Another view of top of tube after cutting:








Check length sticking out:








Put in one spacer, yes it does stick out above top of tube, so that's good:








It turns out two spacers are needed to really tighten the expansion cap:








Close-up view of the cut-off part of the tube, showing a clean cut with just one fragment sticking out:


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Continued here:

Crankset side loading adjustment for SRAM Red 2012 BB30 and other cranksets


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

Glad to see that you took the steps to cut the steerer correctly.

That being said, that's still a whole lot of steerer tube above the headtube. And is there no cable going into the front brake? And bartape?


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

RaptorTC said:


> still a whole lot of steerer tube above the headtube. And is there no cable going into the front brake? And bartape?


The steerer tube is supposed to poke out that far, since having it too short is very bad, as the stem clamp may be clamping onto a section of tube that does not have the expander cap inside.

The front brake cable was disconnected to allow the fork and steerer tube to be completely removed from the bike. I thought this through over a few days: how to remove the fork from the bike without disassembling too many things. I finally figured it out.

I did buy bar tape. I just haven't put it on yet, since I know I'll be adjusting the lengths of brake and shifter cables, and this handlebar has internal cable routing, so the moment I touch those cables the bar tape will have to come off.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

The headset bearing should have exact specifications printed on it. Otherwise, good luck guessing, get some calipers and try to figure it out.

Then you can get some help.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

zigmeister said:


> The headset bearing should have exact specifications printed on it


It does, but only in the form of a few numbers without a lot of relevance to the critical dimensions. I took a picture of that marking and posted what I saw with my eyes.


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## Ricey155 (Feb 17, 2012)

Ask a local bike shop, steerer has too much carbon showing, your putting a lot of force through it and it could snap at that length


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Ricey155 said:


> Ask a local bike shop, steerer has too much carbon showing, your putting a lot of force through it and it could snap at that length


You are very, very late to the party (but it's fashionable to be late).


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> Here are the photos for cutting the steerer tube. Boy that dust is nasty. I forgot to drape a wet paper towel over the whole thing. I quickly went to grab a breathing mask before continuing the cutting. The saw blade has this random pattern instead of a regular sawtooth pattern. That's interesting.
> 
> I clamped the saw guide to a piece of Ikea table frame with the table top removed. It worked just fine.


I'm trying really hard to not sound like a pompous *ss, but where you and I are concerned, I'm always going to be correct. You got exactly the right tools to cut your steerer tube, that carbide saw is awesome. It will never wear out under normal conditions. BUT...
You still have too much steerer tube under your stem. The mechanical expander that is inside the steerer tube does 2 things...well, 3 actually.
1) It allows you to preload the headset bearings.
2) It supports the steerer tube inside the stem.
3) This is the most critically important in your case..._It supports the steerer inside the upper headset bearing._ Your steerer is not supported at all inside the upper bearing, so the top of the bearing cover is the fulcrum against which you are going to eventually break your steerer. Nearly every manufacturer in the industry has a specified limit to the amount of steerer that can extend above the headset. Nearly every manufacturer has agreed on roughly 90mm _including the stem_. Since most stems take up between 35-40mm, and most bearing covers between 10-20mm, this leaves you w/ about 2-3cm of space that can be taken up by actual spacers. You've probably doubled that from what I can tell. 
If you think you're smart enough and experienced enough to say that the entire bicycle industry is mistaken, you're a fool.


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

What cxwrench is saying is what I was trying to say, but he did it better.










In order to fix this you have 3 options as I see it:
1. Lower your stem. If you can't do this due to flexibility issues, then you can...
2. Lose that integrated handlebar setup and get a stem that you can set to point upwards to raise the handlebars.
3. Buy a new frame with a taller headtube that will suit you better (and probably still lose that integrated handlebar since I doubt you'll find a frame with THAT much more headtube). 

Unless you have some flexibility issues that leaves you unable to ride a bike in the normal road bike position (if this is the case then why did you buy one), then a combination of options 1 and 2 should get you down to a safe steerer tube length. If you don't heed this advice that many have told you then I surely hope you have good dental/health insurance.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

ROTFLMAO
This has got to be one of the biggest troll threads that I've ever read through.
Seriously guys, why are you answering this BS


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

mikerp said:


> Seriously guys, why are you answering this BS


1) because they care about my health.

2) because they care about other builders' health.


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## BikeInCanada (Jul 23, 2013)

myhui said:


> 1) because they care about my health.
> 
> 2) because they care about other builders' health.


I'm really not positive that's the reason man.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

myhui said:


> 1) because they care about my health.
> 
> 2) because they care about other builders' health.


I dont care about either. You still need to trim the steer tube.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The steerer tube is good enough.

I'm not going to modify it anymore.

This is causing me enough grief that I may go do my other hobbies and not touch this hobby for a while.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> *The steerer tube is good enough*.
> 
> I'm not going to modify it anymore.
> 
> This is causing me enough grief that I may go do my other hobbies and not touch this hobby for a while.


No, it's not. You've been told why time and time again. Go for it. We're all over this by now.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> You've been told why time and time again. Go for it. We're all over this by now.


That will lower the stem too far and my posture will suffer, I believe. That is my main concern.

I'm not procrastinating because I need to disassemble the headset again.

I know, I can use a riser stem, but that'll kill the weight of the bike.

If I can get a riser stem in the form of an integrated handlebar, that'll be perfect. But I can't find such a thing, so far.

( oh dear ... the impractical side of me is getting the brain's attention again ... )

I'll put a TITANIUM TUBE inside the steerer tube.

None of these have a large enough O.D.:

Order Titanium Grade 2 Tube in Small Quantities at OnlineMetals.com

But I'll keep looking.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> That will lower the stem too far and my posture will suffer, I believe. That is my main concern.
> 
> I'm not procrastinating because I need to disassemble the headset again.
> 
> ...


Or you could have just bought a damn frame that actually accommodated your fitting needs. But that would make too much sense, right?


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> Or you could have just bought a damn frame that actually accommodated your fitting needs.


Incredible!!! This bike weights 14.1 lbs, including saddle and those mountain bike pedals, but no front derailleur and the associated cable, but including the smaller chain ring just there for stiffness (and no paint, no stickers, no handlebar tape, no reflectors, no valve stem covers, no inner tube inside the tires).

I had a one size larger frame on my last bike, and that always felt slightly awkward when I had everything adjusted to position, so I decided to try one size smaller this time.

I bought from the frame supplier another handlebar with integrated stem that has 1cm longer stem, so once I swap that in, the fit should be almost perfect. It's too bad I have to ride it some and then make small adjustments, as that takes a long time to get all the positions just right. A pro fitter with all the equipment can get that done in an hour.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I just ordered a Giro Aeon Fluorescent Orange helmet from the LBS.

Thank you all for admonishing me to please wear a helmet.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

Is should have been a full face helmet, considering the build.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

serious said:


> Is should have been a full face helmet, considering the build.


If you can find me a model with fluorescent paint, super light weight, good aero, and full face, I'll call up the LBS and change my order.

This guy survived many, many years at the professional level with no helmet:









As of now, www.biketiresdirect.com has the large size of that new color, but I love my LBS, so I'll pay MSRP to buy it from my LBS.

_Or maybe it has something to do with me putting the book on my bike's left crank instead of the right crank._


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

Myhui, you're one of the better chain-yankers that's appeared on this forum. Congrats!


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

DaveT said:


> Myhui, you're one of the better chain-yankers that's appeared on this forum. Congrats!


When you're over the hill, you start to gather speed!


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

It's even more hilarious ... in a 100% wholesome way ... when CBC starts broadcasting hockey play-by-play in Hindi, since Indian Canadians love hockey too.


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

Anyone who posts a picture of Guy Lafleur in a bike forum is king. Go habs go!


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

pete2528ca said:


> Anyone who posts a picture of Guy Lafleur in a bike forum is king. Go habs go!


canoe.ca : Who are the richest NHLers of all-time?

Lifetime earnings start at Cdn$69 million for the 21st richest to Cdn$117 million for the top player.


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