# UCI disc brake update?



## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

The most recent threads on the disc ban are a year old. Since cross season is well underway I'm curious if there's been any rumor of the ban being lifted next year.
Also, I searched and couldn't find a statement from the UCI on why the ban is in place. Velonews has had some articles on front brake shudder and it revived this topic in my head.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

There is no update because nothing is going to happen. Nobody at a high level of racing cares. This topic will keep coming up because some slow people think they need more powerful brakes, but it won't change anything.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

jmoote said:


> There is no update because nothing is going to happen. Nobody at a high level of racing cares. This topic will keep coming up because some slow people think they need more powerful brakes, but it won't change anything.


Perfectly said!


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

......


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

disc brakes on road bikes will never fly, why would you want to increase the weight of the chainstays, forks, wheels and components to have marginally better braking. Not to mention the wacked out dish of the wheels when adding a disc hub. Don't be stupid, this is one thing the uci got right the first time.


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

Wow, what a bunch of ignorant snooty roadie responses! I can tell you guys have never ridden disc.

@ Alias- there ARE road bikes with disc...genius. Trek, Salsa, Seven, just to name a few. and marginal braking with disc? are you kidding? Really? Having owned disc and canti, I can confidently tell you are dead wrong. Cantis are the worst performing brakes out there. Disc are by a far margin, the strongest brakes available for a bicycle. 

@jmoote- I can tell you don't own discs either. Disc for cross allows you to scrap speed alot later into a corner than canti, allowing for more control into the turns. Then there is the advantage of disc in mud and foul weather. There is another school of thought that controlled/intelligent application of braking=more speed.

Racers don't care? Please point out one podium finisher mtn. biker who isn'triding disc. I'll give you a hint: they ALL are riding disc, and none of them who are riding rim brakes are riding canti equipped mtn bikes, NONE. 

As far as I see it UCI CX needs to wake up and embrace innovation instead of embracing ignorance. Discs are good for the sport of CX.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

kata said:


> Wow, what a bunch of ignorant snooty roadie responses! I can tell you guys have never ridden disc.
> 
> @ Alias- there ARE road bikes with disc, Genius. Trek, Salsa, Seven, just to name a few. and marginal braking with disc? are you kidding? Really? Having owned disc and canti, I can confidently tell you are dead wrong. Cantis are the worst performing brakes out there. Disc are by a far margin, the strongest brakes available for a bicycle.
> 
> ...


jmoote: "This topic will keep coming up because some slow people think they need more powerful brakes, but it won't change anything."

jmoote called it, atmo. Also, here we go again....


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

double post "deleted"


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

Let be get this straight: you (jmoote, wunlap togo, mayor, wunlap) don't answer the original question in an intelligent respectful manner. In addition, you mock peoples choices in components. Yeah, you guys sound creditable. What grade are you in? 

Kata is right, discs are inevitable in CX. If there are any other rational reasons why disc shouldn't be allowed, I would like to see them because I have yet to read one. 

Please people, let's base our conclusions on facts rather than assumptions. I just don't understand the hillbilly mentality of CX. Ignorance is bliss.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Nony and Kata,
Thank you for setting us straight.
But...have you ever ridden a cross race?
Really?


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

Can we make it a tradition to have the good old "UCI rules about Disc Brakes" conversation each year on Christmas day? It always warms my heart and it's a great way to create memories.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

I've raced in all sorts of CX conditions, and I really never have felt the need for more braking power. Ok... maybe a couple of times- but not really enough to justify something heavier & more expensive. I just HTFU'd and dealt. 
The example that all podium finishers in a MTB race isn't really valid in this argument- on a MTB course, you're much more likely to encounter a situation in which you need more braking power. 
I'm guessing that the road bikes that are disc-compatible are being marketed as touring bikes (more braking power needed for loaded hill descents). Just an assumption, though. Of the three, I've got a lot more experience with the other two.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

Disk brakes are better and if the weight penalty could be negated I'd use them on my road bike too. I have good brakes on my cross bike with good pads set up right and they are still so-so when the conditions turn foul. I brake for a longer time waiting for the rim to clear and end up going slower as a result. I'd be more than happy to have a setup that hauled the bike right down in a hurry.

All that said, there are too many compromises for me to use brakes, including the need for special wheels I can't use for anything else and the weight I mentioned before. They also seemed to drag a bit when I rode hard out of the saddle. Beyond that, they are superior to cantis.

I doubt UCI riders will care unless they have a weight limit for their bikes and are looking for a way to add weight.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

kata said:


> Racers don't care? Please point out one podium finisher mtn. biker who isn'triding disc. I'll give you a hint: they ALL are riding disc, and none of them who are riding rim brakes are riding canti equipped mtn bikes, NONE.


Mountain bikes and Cyclocross bikes are the same how?


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

jroden, weight should be a non-issue. FRAME: There are full disc hardtails in the 15# range, and that's a mtn bike! So I see no reason why CX bikes can't achieve similar if not lower weights for CX frames. 

WHEELS: Mtn bike disc wheelsets have dropped down to 1400grams without being stupid light. 1500gm wheels are very typical for non-carbon CX wheelsets at least what I noticed this season. So again, no reason why a CX wheelset can't achieve the same weight given CX riders are much easier on their wheelsets than mtn. bikers. 

My canti experience is similar to yours, so-so in foul weather. I was amazed when I upgraded to disc on my CX bike, didn't have to be cautious in bad weather, I can just apply the brake and it worked. 

Brake drag can be eliminated simply by moving the disc pads away from the rotor, just like on a rim brake. 

@ Andrea138, Treks markets the Portland as a commuter and club bike. I've dropped the weight of my PDX down to #20 which is very similar to CX weights. There is also a guy in my club with a custom 18# Seven road bike with disc, full DA, and no touring rack. It's very much a full-on road bike. Seems like there are other custom frame mfg offering the same options.


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## joness (Dec 6, 2006)

Sometimes the brake that doesn't work as well is the better choice. In the sloppy conditions that cause rim brakes to not work so well there is usually little traction with the tires and the ground - remember that cross tires have a much smaller footprint than mountain, and it usually isn't as steep. Often a disc is overkill because if you brake harder the wheel may lock up. I saw this with a couple guys who had discs in the non-UCI classes at nationals who touched the brakes a bit hard then hit the ground.

I've been running discs on all my mountain bikes for 8 years. I don't need nor want them on my cross bike.


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

> I've been running discs on all my mountain bikes for 8 years. I don't need nor want them on my cross bike.


Finally, a rational "opposing view" response based on facts and experience. Thanks.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Andrea138 said:


> I've raced in all sorts of CX conditions, and I really never have felt the need for more braking power.


I use to say the same thing about disc brakes and mountain bikes....until, I tried my first mountain bike with disc brakes and then never looked back. 

It's really not about more braking power, it's more about the modulation, control, and ease of braking.

Even if UCI approved disc brakes, doesn't imply that everyone will be forced to use them. Individuals can make their own choice on what kind of brakes they wish to run. If that means a weight penalty for discs, so be it for them.

Finally, don't see why there is such arrogance (perhaps masking ignorance and/or insecurity) amonst those self-appointed know-it-alls that post such condescending contrary opinions.


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

OnTheRivet said:


> Mountain bikes and Cyclocross bikes are the same how?


I got kata's reasoning: Look at precedence as an future indicator. Once disc was allowed in XC races, top racers eventually chose to ride disc over rim.


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

the mayor said:


> Nony and Kata,
> Thank you for setting us straight.
> But...have you ever ridden a cross race?
> Really?


The real question is: do YOU ride CX? Because my CX teammates have shown much better sportsmanship than what you have demonstrated on this thread. Here in Portland CX, we support each other (teammates or not) and refrain from low-ball insults at other riders.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

nony said:


> The real question is: do YOU ride CX? Because my CX teammates have shown much better sportsmanship than what you have demonstrated on this thread. Here in Portland CX, we support each other (teammates or not) and refrain from low-ball insults at other riders.


All you really have to say is:

"No, I have never raced a 'cross."


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

wunlap togo said:


> All you really have to say is:
> 
> "No, I have never raced a 'cross."


Speaking of another person demonstrating poor sportsman like behavior. Way to keep it classy, Wunlap.


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## cy1 (Dec 7, 2004)

Unless you're racing in a UCI race, I think you're free to use disc brakes, and I haven't seen them take over in non UCI races yet. Very few of us here are racing UCI races regularly.

Most cross race courses are not like mountain bike races as there are rarely ever any large changes of elevation that might require the braking power of discs. Another point that was mentioned earlier was that the 35 mm max sized tires in UCI races are probably the limiting factor in braking anyway.

If they ever could make disc brakes as light as rim brakes, I think there would be some advantages in control, but I think they might be negated by the slower wheel changes compared to rim brakes.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

nony said:


> Speaking of another person demonstrating poor sportsman like behavior. Way to keep it classy, Wunlap.


:thumbsup:


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

First off all, I just want to say that I love this entire thread, from the original question, to the fact that everyone is breaking out the "impatient d-bag" response style on Christmas Day, and that "team disc brake" isn't backing down. This stuff is money.

Ok, to the post:



kata said:


> jroden, weight should be a non-issue. FRAME: There are full disc hardtails in the 15# range, and that's a mtn bike!


Link to a 15 lb 29'er hardtail please? I have never seen one even close to 15 lbs.



kata said:


> WHEELS: Mtn bike disc wheelsets have dropped down to 1400grams without being stupid light.


1400g before you put the disc on there, maybe. Meanwhile you've got 303s or Edge 1.68s in the 1100g range... I would take a 300g reduction in rotation weight over a disc wheel in a SECOND. And don't tell me you can build a 303 with a disc hub at 1100g, if you're stopping the wheel at the hub (instead of the rim) you're gonna need more spokes in addition to a beefier hub.

I don't know how you guys roll in Portland, but we don't have that many heavy braking sections out here in New England. When it gets muddy here, the course is so heavy you barely need to brake... so why discs? Brake clearance, maybe. And when it's dry I have lock-em-up power with cantis if I really jam it. To switch to discs I'd have to throw out my entire wheel collection, buy new frames, all for an "improvement" that I'd barely use.

I don't think the UCI needs to ban them, if they were really a lot better, wouldn't they have taken the OBRA and ACA scenes by storm?


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## ®andyA (Nov 14, 2006)

adimiro said:


> ...Even if UCI approved disc brakes, doesn't imply that everyone will be forced to use them. Individuals can make their own choice on what kind of brakes they wish to run. If that means a weight penalty for discs, so be it for them...


adimiro gets it IMO.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

This is really so tiring, having the same 3 discussions about disc brakes, whether tubulars are any good and sandbaggers that it can be awful hard to cut through the crap to find the thoughtful cross discussion here.



kata said:


> @jmoote- I can tell you don't own discs either.


No, I do not own a cross bike with discs. All of my mountain bikes have disc brakes, and I love them too. My mtb also weighs about 7 lbs more than my cross bike and has these big fat tires, and a flat bar, and smaller chainrings, and... oh yeah, it's not a cross bike.



nony said:


> joness said:
> 
> 
> > I've been running discs on all my mountain bikes for 8 years. I don't need nor want them on my cross bike.
> ...


How is this any more a rational view than the first few responses in the thread? We didn't say anything about disc brakes in other disciplines. For *cyclocross* (see that forum title up top?) the disc brake discussion is overdone and irrelevant.



colinr said:


> 1400g before you put the disc on there, maybe. Meanwhile you've got 303s or Edge 1.68s in the 1100g range... I would take a 300g reduction in rotation weight over a disc wheel in a SECOND. And don't tell me you can build a 303 with a disc hub at 1100g, if you're stopping the wheel at the hub (instead of the rim) you're gonna need more spokes in addition to a beefier hub.
> 
> I don't know how you guys roll in Portland, but we don't have that many heavy braking sections out here in New England. When it gets muddy here, the course is so heavy you barely need to brake... so why discs? Brake clearance, maybe. And when it's dry I have lock-em-up power with cantis if I really jam it. To switch to discs I'd have to throw out my entire wheel collection, buy new frames, all for an "improvement" that I'd barely use.


Exactly.


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

colinr said:


> Link to a 15 lb 29'er hardtail please? I have never seen one even close to 15 lbs.
> 
> 1400g before you put the disc on there, maybe.
> 
> ...


16.5# not 15# my bad. I'm sure if you had a rigid fork, it would be closer to #15.
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/first-look-cannondales-1656lb-flash-carbon-hardtail-22233

No not maybe, my friend, 1200grams disc only:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/first-look-cannondales-1656lb-flash-carbon-hardtail-22233

I've even seen 1100 gram mtn bike disc wheelset on the race course somewhere. I was just referring to 1400gram number since that seems the norm for non-carbon CX wheelsets. 



> if you're stopping the wheel at the hub (instead of the rim) you're gonna need more spokes in addition to a beefier hub.


Yes, BUT you can eliminate the brake track at the rim on a disc wheelset (less rotating mass at the perimeter where weight matters), and put it in the hub to resist rotor forces where the extra mass has less effect on rotational weight. Hence, in some cases, disc wheelsets actually feels faster than a rim wheelset of the same weight. 

Portland/Seattle has a lot of elevation gain which requires heavy braking on the downhill end where disc comes in handy. Then there is the rain. There actually has been a consistent INCREASE in disc brake bike usage every year in the Cross Crusade series, an ORBA event, which often has 1000 racers PER race. 



> To switch to discs I'd have to throw out my entire wheel collection, buy new frames, all for an "improvement" that I'd barely use.


Not necessarily, you can start like I did, purchased my first disc bike, but kept my rim brake CX bike as a pit bike on wet days. I would then use my disc bike as my pit bike on dry days. Easy. 

I just wish UCI would give CX the choice to use disc.


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

cy1 said:


> Most cross race courses are not like mountain bike races as there are rarely ever any large changes of elevation that might require the braking power of discs. Another point that was mentioned earlier was that the 35 mm max sized tires in UCI races are probably the limiting factor in braking anyway.
> 
> If they ever could make disc brakes as light as rim brakes, I think there would be some advantages in control, but I think they might be negated by the slower wheel changes compared to rim brakes.


2009 CX here had 300 vertical ft of climbing on several races. Mtn. bikes are allowed in the local CX races. No tire limits here, either. 

As I stated above, Ritchey offers a 1200gram disc wheelest. Discs are ALREADY as light as CX wheels. 

Here are the steps to install a wheel in a wheel change:

Rim Brakes: insert wheel, close lever, re-straddle canti or v brakes
(3 steps)

Disc Brakes: insert wheel, close lever 
(rotor is automatically align with the disc calipers)
(2 steps)


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

adimiro said:


> It's really not about more braking power, it's more about the modulation, control, and ease of braking.


Exactly, I've never owned a carbon CX fork but the article and responses on Velonews make it sound like the brake bosses flex and the braking is shuddery and not very controlled. Who wouldn't want more consistent braking?
I used to race cross regularly when I lived in New England and frequently won in both Junior and open so know what it feels like to go fast in sloppy CX conditions.
This thread can end cuz all I wanted to know is if anything is changing with the UCI. Apparently not, so enjoy your cantis boys.


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## joness (Dec 6, 2006)

Lelandjt said:


> Exactly, I've never owned a carbon CX fork but the article and responses on Velonews make it sound like the brake bosses flex and the braking is shuddery and not very controlled. Who wouldn't want more consistent braking?
> I used to race cross regularly when I lived in New England and frequently won in both Junior and open so know what it feels like to go fast in sloppy CX conditions.
> This thread can end cuz all I wanted to know is if anything is changing with the UCI. Apparently not, so enjoy your cantis boys.



I own two carbon forks on two bikes- an Alpha Q CX20 and a Wound Up. I have not experienced chatter with either ever.


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

jmoote said:


> No, I do not own a cross bike with discs. All of my mountain bikes have disc brakes, and I love them too. My mtb also weighs about 7 lbs more than my cross bike and has these big fat tires, and a flat bar, and smaller chainrings, and... oh yeah, it's not a cross bike.


Your mtn. bike may be a boat anchor, but as Kata just pointed out, there is such a beast as a #16 disc bike. So the disc weight rant is bunk. 



jmoote said:


> How is this any more a rational view than the first few responses in the thread? We didn't say anything about disc brakes in other disciplines. For *cyclocross* (see that forum title up top?) the disc brake discussion is overdone and irrelevant.


It's more relevant than your comment because he didn't insult anyone to make his point. 

As he also pointed out, mtn. bikes/ flat bar bikes are allowed in some CX races. So mtn bikes are relevant. 

Kata backed up his points with FACTS. Where are your facts? Still waiting for you and your playground bullies to contribute anything positive to this thread. 

Oh, and it looks like kata just bunked that wheel rant, too. Exactly.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

The weight issue is now arguable. Cannondale for 2010 has a mountain bike model with a 110mm travel front fork and disc brakes that is just 16.6lbs for the complete bike.

Plus disc specific rim designs can be made lighter and stronger since you don't have to have a braking suface built in.

I recall reading a tweet from Lance Armstong himself that said he would love to have a road bike with disc brakes for mountain stages.

The future is now.


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

joness said:


> I own two carbon forks on two bikes- an Alpha Q CX20 and a Wound Up. I have not experienced chatter with either ever.


Same here, no chatter. Though I wonder if it's related to the fact that I use a softer pad?


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## Ray_from_SA (Jun 15, 2005)

My personal opinion as to a negative on the whole disc on a cross/road bike deal is around the fact that it would need to be a mechanical disc such as an Avid BB7 which I am not a fan of. The day you can have a hydraulic disc though on one, I am on board with that idea!


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## Unoveloce (Apr 13, 2005)

Everyone that want's disc brakes on cross bikes always acts like all you need to do is just swap wheels and braze on a mount and you are ready. There's more to it than that. Does anyone know what the standard OLD (that's over locknut dimension) is for disc wheels? It's 135mm. A cross bike is 130, unless it comes stock from the manufacturer with discs, then it's 135mm, usually. There have been a few instances of 130mm disc hubs (FSA made them). So what's the big deal about a lousy 5mm? Well the disc needs to be a set distance from the mount so that all of the existing disc brakes will work. You can't just slap a wider wheel and a new hub with a rotor on in any old frame. The disc won't work. If you think that the bike industry is going to completely re-invent a small segment of the market like cross, where they are freely able to steal and borrow road technology, you are completely wrong.

On a side note, why is it that whenever this subject comes up, the people wanting discs always come off as the type that run clinchers and never have spare bikes and or wheels for cross races? I'm probably way off and generalizing, but that's the way it seems to me.

Now if I had a bike I commuted on in foul weather, over large hills, maybe toured lightly on, took off road a bunch, and raced cross occasionally,then discs would seem more appealing. Oh wait, I have a bike for that. Still no discs, as it is also my pit bike come cross season and I need to be able to switch wheels.


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## Hand/of/Midas (Apr 15, 2008)

Jeez, both sides are being partially silly.

I dont care, go ahead and let the other guys use Discs on their cx bike. I'll keep using cantis. Come on UCI, who cares. dont buy it if you dont want it everyone else.

Discs could be very close to the same weight as Cantis for the system. Ive seen mtn wheels as low as 990grams.(yea sub-kilo disc wheels), and with not needing to have a brake track the rim can be lighter with the same strength because it can be any shape not just square.

, but cable discs are still holding that back from being cool, (and cantis just look better,more classic, and work fine). If somebody makes Dropbar SS hydro levers id give em a try on a 2nd bike, sounds fun, dont think it'd be a huge advantage, but neat, and less mudd grinding noise.


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## homebrew (Oct 28, 2004)

Awsome thread


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

colinr said:


> 1400g before you put the disc on there, maybe. Meanwhile you've got 303s or Edge 1.68s in the 1100g range... I would take a 300g reduction in rotation weight over a disc wheel in a SECOND. And don't tell me you can build a 303 with a disc hub at 1100g, if you're stopping the wheel at the hub (instead of the rim) you're gonna need more spokes in addition to a beefier hub.



I'm telling you that you can build a 303 with a disc hub. Nothing needs to be beefy about it. I don't know where you are getting your info from. The whole wheel weight issue is moot. The only difference is the hub and you add a 97g disc (there are definitely lighter discs). 

If one would build a disc equipped bike at the legal weight limit, there would be no valid argument against it. 


The misinformation and lack of open thought on this CX forum is mind boggling.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Unoveloce said:


> On a side note, why is it that whenever this subject comes up, the people wanting discs always come off as the type that run clinchers and never have spare bikes and or wheels for cross races? I'm probably way off and generalizing, but that's the way it seems to me.



Wow ..........dripping with elitism. So if you don't have two bikes or multiple sets of tubulars your opinion doesn't matter? 

<----Has two CX wheelsets.........actually more if you count my 26" disc wheels which can be tossed in the frame in a jiffy. So that makes......4 wheelsets....Oh and my 650b wheels which also fit my CX frame....So I have 5 sets. But none are tubular, and only 3 sets of them are tubeless (1 CX specific). How about those back-up bikes? Oh, how about 3. 2 mountain bikes and one SS CX in the making (not disc). 

Does my opinion count now?

I represent the avg joe........who makes up most of the sport anyway.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I agree. The weight thing is not much of a penalty. My bike weighs 18.2lbs with Shimano BR505R mechanical discs and I could probably go much lower if I wanted to $pend for it. I think a UCI decision in favor of discs would encourage more companies to develop disc frames and advance the technology. It is conceivable to build disc sets that are comparable in weight to other brake systems. Unfortunately for technologists, cycling is a vain sport and for many customers, it is important to look UCI certified, whether they race UCI races or not. Big shiny discs on a bike are a clear sign that you are not a "real" racer... and some people just need that ambiguity.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

The view from someone who has raced cross for over 20 years:

How does the UCI's rule affect you?
It probably doesn't...unless you ride in Pro men or womens at UCI events( I only see 3 people here that do)

There are several manufacturers that make disc braked cross bikes. But they don't sell too well. If you want one...buy one.I'm know you can get a killer deal on them. Ride it..race it...the UCI rule doesn't mean anything to you.

When disc brakes went into production for mtb's in the 90's...I was lucky enough to be riding out of a shop that got early models...they were awesome ( and have gotten better). We also got disc braked cross bikes ....extra weight and braking power you didn't need( it's very easy to over power a skinny cross tire) made them pointless.

Cross racing and mtb are very different sports. Use the right tool for the right job. Take a look at Speedway motorcycles...they don't even have brakes. Why? Because they don't need them for that type of racing.

Fork /brake shudder is caused by brakes that aren't set up correctly...period.

Man...this forum gets weirder every year.

Merry CX-mas...and Happy New Year.

See you next cross season.

I'm going riding.


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 23, 2008)

Ray_from_SA said:


> The day you can have a hydraulic disc though on one, I am on board with that idea!


Hope makes them.



















I imagine if Shimano thought there was some profitability, you'd see them producing one considering the XTR M975 lever is so close in form to what a hydraulic road bike STI would need to be.


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

misterdangerpants said:


> Hope makes them.]


Santana has offered a hydraulic adapter for almost 10 years now for tandems, though I'm sure you and retro fit to a CX if you wanted.


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

joness said:


> Often a disc is overkill because if you brake harder the wheel may lock up. I saw this with a couple guys who had discs in the non-UCI classes at nationals who touched the brakes a bit hard then hit the ground.
> 
> I've been running discs on all my mountain bikes for 8 years. I don't need nor want them on my cross bike.


You don't want them because you haven't tried them on a CX. 

People say disc is too powerful and don't need them for CX, but that's a superficial argument. You have to evaluate disc on a more holistic scale. 

Discs can be modulated for power just like any other brake. With disc, you have a lot if pwr of you want it. With cantis you can adjust all day long, but you will never get pwr out of them. In other words, you start with a lot of power with disc and then you adjust them to tone down the stopping power for your use. Cantis start weak and you adjust to eek out more stopping power out of them. What you observed was most likely a stock disc step up at full power. 

I run 160mm front and 140mm rotor in the rear. The smaller rotor decreases mech advantage slightly. In addition, I adjust pad contact 80% through the brake lever travel so that I never lock out my discs as the lever throw will bottom out on the handlebar. I can also run organic pads instead of metallic pads to further decrease power.

You can ride stupid with cantis, too.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

the mayor said:


> The view from someone who has raced cross for over 20 years:


Mayor, your knowledge and experience would be much better received and appreciated if your delivery was not so elitist and condescending. 

PS. You might want to correct your profile that states you began cycling in 1991 (the math just don;t add up to over 20 years).


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

the mayor said:


> The view from someone who has raced cross for over 20 years:
> 
> How does the UCI's rule affect you?
> It probably doesn't...unless you ride in Pro men or womens at UCI events( I only see 3 people here that do)
> ...



1) UCI rules strongly dictate what manufacturer's will and won't build. I would love to see C-dale build a racing frame with disc tabs. No manufacturer will spend the money to make a race machine since the legitimate racers won't be able to use them in UCI events. 

2) Allowing them won't mean a thing to those who don't want them. It will mean a lot to those of us who do want them.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

88 rex said:


> 1) UCI rules strongly dictate what manufacturer's will and won't build. I would love to see C-dale build a racing frame with disc tabs. No manufacturer will spend the money to make a race machine since the legitimate racers won't be able to use them in UCI events.
> 
> 2) Allowing them won't mean a thing to those who don't want them. It will mean a lot to those of us who do want them.


Cannondale DID make one for years....but it wasn't a big seller. You can still find them on dealers floors..I'm sure Cdale has them in the warehouse.Trek made them too.
I was psyched when we got the Cdales with discs....but we quickly found they weren't all that for cross( but I would never go back to cantis on a mtb)
You are right...allowing them won't mean a thing to those who don't want them...and not many people want them.
UCI rules dictate what a few Pro's use....less than 1 % of cross bikes that are made. If there was a market, Manufacturers would be all over it. The Manufacturers "thought" there was a market for them a few years ago....no one bought them( and it had nothing to do with UCI rules)...they won't be going down that road very soon again.
I can think of half a dozen disc frames and forks that are available...buy one.
For cross racing....there isn't a need or call.
If you're using it for trail and dirt roads....buy a light 29er frame...problem solved.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

wunlap togo said:


> Can we make it a tradition to have the good old "UCI rules about Disc Brakes" conversation each year on Christmas day? It always warms my heart and it's a great way to create memories.


Pass me your UCI approved mug, Wunlap. I'll pour you some UCI approved nog to celebrate this UCI approved Holiday season.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

adimiro said:


> Mayor, your knowledge and experience would be much better received and appreciated if your delivery was not so elitist and condescending.


It could also be said that the questions from newcomers to the sport would be much better received if they were presented with some respect for the sport and its heritage. I fall closer to the novice end of things, but I've gotten to where I am with cross because of my respect and admiration for those who are faster than me, not by thinking I know better than them.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

jmoote said:


> It could also be said that the questions from newcomers to the sport would be much better received if they were presented with some respect for the sport and its heritage. I fall closer to the novice end of things, but I've gotten to where I am with cross because of my respect and admiration for those who are faster than me, not by thinking I know better than them.



(1) Being a 'newcomer' and knowing the complete sports heritage seems a little contradictory

(2) Looking into and asking about evolving technology is in no way disrepectful of the sports heritage

(3) The OP just asked about any new UCI disc brake info before the 'self-appointed' experts began ridicule and the 'facepalm' photo etc. No respect there.

(4) Other than the weight issue (that some have challenged with some acual fact instead of opinions), I have not yet heard convincing data to support the anti-disc movement.

(5) Whether one agrees or not, IMHO the UCI approval of disc brakes in cyclocross racing is ineveitable (you can search this post again in 1-2 years).


PS You make alot of ASSumptions on who you think is a newbie to this sport


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

jmoote said:


> It could also be said that the questions from newcomers to the sport would be much better received if they were presented with some respect for the sport and its heritage. I fall closer to the novice end of things, but I've gotten to where I am with cross because of my respect and admiration for those who are faster than me, not by thinking I know better than them.


Well said.

It's like complaining that Major League baseball does not allow players to use aluminum bats, which hit the ball further than wooden bats. Wooden bats, like cantis, are about tradition and about consistency in the sport. There's no one stopping any one from riding with disc brakes when they ride locally, just like there's no one preventing the use of aluminum bats at your local softball game.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

adimiro said:


> (4) Other than the weight issue (that some have challenged with some acual fact instead of opinions), I have not yet heard convincing data to support the anti-disc movement.


I personally prefer not having a sharp-edged heated rotor being held at face level when the guy next to me is shouldering his bike. In crowded races, I've been hit by several different bike parts, adding a more dangerous one into the mix seems like a bad idea to me.


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

Disc brakes on a CX? Run 'em if you've got 'em. I love them on my MTB but for me there is no real advantage to putting them on my race CX or road bikes. If I was building an all-rounder I might consider it...

Unless you are racing in a UCI event why argue about it? The UCI will approve technology that improves the sport at the highest levels. Disc in MTB? No brainer. For CX YMMV. If they did approve them how many of the worlds best would run them unless they were paid to do so? They won't make you pedal faster that is for sure. 

Jeff


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

laffeaux said:


> Well said.
> 
> It's like complaining that Major League baseball does not allow players to use aluminum bats, which hit the ball further than wooden bats. Wooden bats, like cantis, are about tradition and about consistency in the sport. There's no one stopping any one from riding with disc brakes when they ride locally, just like there's no one preventing the use of aluminum bats at your local softball game.



Not even close to the same.

And if you want to get back to tradition, how about limiting frames to steel only? Let's see how fast you "traditionalists" want to throw away your carbon and aluminum. No one would stop you from riding your aluminum bike. Would that be cool or what....and just oozing with tradition.


Zoom, the UCI does not always approve technology. In fact this ban only went into effect a few years ago. (Same for flat bars I think)


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

adimiro said:


> (1) Being a 'newcomer' and knowing the complete sports heritage seems a little contradictory


...when you equate "some" with "complete"



> PS You make alot of ASSumptions on who you think is a newbie to this sport


The only person I named as such was myself... placing other people's words certainly doesn't help your credibility here.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

88 rex said:


> Not even close to the same.


Why not? Wooden bats are used purely out of tradition. I'm interested to hear why you disagree.


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## Ray_from_SA (Jun 15, 2005)

88 rex said:


> Not even close to the same.
> 
> And if you want to get back to tradition, how about limiting frames to steel only? Let's see how fast you "traditionalists" want to throw away your carbon and aluminum. No one would stop you from riding your aluminum bike. Would that be cool or what....and just oozing with tradition.
> 
> ...


The UCI doesn't limit the frame material, but they do limit the frame design. Design must me 'double diamond' construction.

If we're going to look at rules and regulations in the context of this argument, you need to make sure you look at the rule you're quoting in the complete context of the rule.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

Well, now that this has gone around and around (again...) and we've seen the rational (and not so rational) arguments for and against disc brakes (and the brainless heckling, thanks to me and a few others); I'd like to be the first to say:

USE THE SEARCH FEATURE PEOPLE!

This discussion is getting lots of intentionally un-helpful and sarcastic responses because it has been ARGUED TO DEATH AGAIN AND AGAIN on this very board. Nothing new has come of it this go-'round.

To recap:

The UCI doesn't allow disc brakes in Elite events. No matter how much we argue about it, this is unlikely to change. 

There are cyclocross frames/forks that are already being made that will accept disc brakes. If you want one, go buy one. If you aren't racing UCI Elite races, you can set up your bike with disc brakes and have an unfair advantage over your competitors (sorry, it's virtually impossible for me to talk about this without being sarcastic).

If the UCI did lift the ban on discs, all kinds of things might happen- Shimano might make a hydraulic shift/brake lever (With electric shifting! Just imagine it!) for use with discs and it might become the gold standard for Sven Nys and everyone else at the very top of international cyclocross racing. Canti's may well become forgotten technology, just like in mountain bikes- it's easy to imagine! Naturally, road bikes would follow suit (why not put discs on ALL racing bikes?). 

However; in reality, there are many reasons that are quite obvious to anyone who races a lot of 'cross that really great brakes don't win you races. Tires, tire pressure, bike fit, bike weight, wheel weight, pedal choice and gearing selection are all factors that top racers know can affect their result. Braking performance isn't even on the list. To those who don't race 'cross this may seem insane, so when experienced racers say it non-racers accuse them of being elitist snobs. 

Is the fact that they're unnecessary a reason for the UCI to BAN discs? No, and I have no idea why they would rule one way or another about this. I do know that the only complaints that I ever hear regarding discs in cross come from people who are annoyed by rules like this, and accuse the UCI of being stodgy and dumb (which they are). Usually, these people are not Elite racers so it's a pointless conversation.

Anyway, it WAS a fun way to spend christmas and I hope we can have this conversation again next year (and hopefully not sooner).


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## cogswell23 (Aug 15, 2007)

A lot of the heavy arguers on here are people with only like 20 or so posts. With all due respect, what you guys might not realize is just how many times this argument has occurred before on this forum. The attitude that you are getting from some folks isn't so misplaced, if you remember that context. You're coming in and shouting about something that's already been beaten to death on multiple occasions. Some people feel one way about it, others feel another way, and you're not really going to change each other's minds. Even if you were to change each other's minds, so what? You're not the UCI. You're a bunch of dudes wasting time arguing on the internet.

I mean, this is pretty boring when you think about it, isn't it?

BTW, I thought the wooden bat analogy was an apt one.

EDIT: Wunlap posted while I was writing mine I guess. Please just allow me to echo his points.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

jmoote said:


> ...certainly doesn't help your credibility here.



Credibility here??!!?! I'm not under any delusions of grandeur...my opinion is worth as much (or as little) as anyone elses who posts on this forum. 

Disc brakes or anything else, have advantages or disadvantages. I don't run disc brakes on my CX bike, but I just don't like arbitrary, old-boys club institutions that resist change or decree what is 'needed' vs 'uneeded' especially without any objective arguments.

PS: The OP asked about updates...if instead of sarcastic BS from those-who-have-heard-it-all before, someone could have just given a genuine answer about new (if any) updates, this thread would be 3 replies instead of 3 pages.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

cogswell23 said:


> BTW, I thought the wooden bat analogy was an apt one.


It's really not when you actually think about 1) why pro bats are wooden 2) the size of baseball as a sport and 3) the structure of the MLB.

I think the fact that this is debated so frequently and with such passion on these forums is only proof that there is a place for this equipment in the sport. I don't really think you would see one single thread with "I really hope they ban disc brakes" if disc brakes were to ever be made legal.

And I will continue to tirelessly express my opinion and thoughts on this topic simply because there is so much misinformation on this forum about discs in general. So many people have such strong opinions against them on this board and most have no experience with them. They are simply against them just because they think they are preserving something.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

laffeaux said:


> Why not? Wooden bats are used purely out of tradition. I'm interested to hear why you disagree.


Aluminum bats are a clear advantage over wooden bats. They are able to provide a much greater velocity on the baseball and in doing so create an environment of a rediculous amount of home runs, but also a safety issue for pitchers who are occassionly in direct fire of baseballs. Head injuries is one of the fears among players and league organizers. Also, it's not like you can just pick any old wood, you are limited to certain woods, and even then the debate of maple over ash is a problem. Some fearing, reasonably, the splintering of maple. 

According to most "canti only" proponents, discs don't deliver any advantage what so ever and that is part of their reasoning to do so. In fact they claim if anything, it delivers a weight penalty with no benefit in braking. So I guess my question is, why prevent something you feel to be inferior?


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

But I want disc brakes for my Sunday afternoon rides on fire roads. Wah!


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

88 rex said:


> So many people have such strong opinions against them on this board and most have no experience with them.


This is the part of the argument that so many get wrong. I would argue that most people have ridden a mtb with disc brakes (it's not common to find one without these days) and many of us race mtb for as many months of the year as we do cross.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

pretender said:


> But I want disc brakes for my Sunday afternoon rides on fire roads. Wah!


Yeah, me too! Stupid UCI!


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

It's like a herd of trolls in this forum.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

laffeaux said:


> I personally prefer not having a sharp-edged heated rotor being held at face level when the guy next to me is shouldering his bike. In crowded races, I've been hit by several different bike parts, adding a more dangerous one into the mix seems like a bad idea to me.


Yeah... this, too. I don't know how it is in the men's races, but in the P1/2 women's races, things get physical. Bikes or parts of bikes can be "put" in your way (both intentionally and unintentionally) when you're dismounted and trying to run past someone. Women are mean... heaven forbid you give us an extra weapon


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## the pope (Mar 28, 2004)

I keep imagining a disc flying off like Oddjob's bowler.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

while this issue has been discussed before a time or two, I don't see it as any more inane than all the questions people ask about using a cross bike as a "do it all" bike to ride aroud fire roads and maybe race someday, or not, where to find tubular tires and the best kind of bike pedals to use for commuting on a cross bike. It's just the nature of this medium. 

I think in part this forum also degenerates into a small handful of people arguing about little picky crap which turns off the rest of the potential posters leading to a small sandbox. I suspect if long time users of this forum made an effort to be a wee bit nicer to people, perhaps it would be a less tedious rehash of pedal choices, monster cross tires and stopping brake squeal in the avid shorty model.


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## aking legs (Aug 30, 2009)

*Just a small contribution from a low post count newbie*

One point I must offer as a fellow who has a job as an ME without the ME degree..

A smaller contact patch (ie: narrow tire) does not necessarily constitute less traction. I learned this very quickly many years ago driving over the mountains in VT with a little lightweight Honda: Narrow tires on slippery surface = better traction. 

I have been witness to several posts declaring "CX bikes have narrow tires, thusly less traction" - Physics do not agree with this statement. Anyone who races Mountain bikes can tell you - narrower tires (not ridiculously of course) work better in mud. 

Thought I'd fuel the heated exchange


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## Ray_from_SA (Jun 15, 2005)

aking legs said:


> One point I must offer as a fellow who has a job as an ME without the ME degree..
> 
> A smaller contact patch (ie: narrow tire) does not necessarily constitute less traction. I learned this very quickly many years ago driving over the mountains in VT with a little lightweight Honda: Narrow tires on slippery surface = better traction.
> 
> ...


You're observations are correct as to having better traction in snow/ice and mud conditions with narrow tires, you're understanding as to why may be falling short though.

It has nothing to do with a smaller contact patch.


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

*lycra vs wool*

just wondered-without using the search engine, what you folks thought of this comparison.

just kidding...

Liked the traditional steel comment-no carbon, or alu/scandium. Just thought I'd throw the wool wear out there too.


Without pasteing the many good...and bad quotes in this thread, that I have agreed with, it's been damn entertaining.

I for one, have a disc crosser. I built up a leftover Salsa las Cruces this season, and couldn't be happier. It's no feather weight-20.8lbs, but it's only 1lb heavier than my bro in law's Ridley Cross Fire with tubies...and I run 38' clinchers to boot. Both are modest builds, his Ultegra, mine Rival. My Las Cruces has better braking than my old CDale crosser ever thought of having, and my new carbon roadie with Red, has better breaking than my old bikes with 105 or ultegra.

The old CDale crosser is getting it's winter road duty here in Central New York now. Once the salt, sand, snow, slush, and ice enter the picture, the braking sucks. The three wheelsets are all beat up and the braking surfaces gouged to hell, but that's what having a winter beater is all about isn't.



An honest difference of opinion, is often a healthy sign of progress.

The progress, should be the growth of the sport, cyclocross in particular, but cycling in general. Can we simply agree that we disagree. We all want what we want, and not always for the same or a sane reason.

How can the cyclocross events themselves, and most of the racers/fans at them, be so damn accepting and encouraging to newbies...but many of you on here not be?

No belguin beer for you!


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

Magdaddy said:


> How can the cyclocross events themselves, and most of the racers/fans at them, be so damn accepting and encouraging to newbies...but many of you on here not be?


We like to suck them in, and convert them to stuffy cyclocross curmudgeons as soon as they appear to be hooked, thus perpetuating the status quo  

Seriously, the whole disc-UCI debate only applies to elite racing. Weekend warriors can do whatever they want but the *rules* are made to shape what the highest levels of the sport look like. What goes on in the lower categories should resemble this to some extent, but less of the rules are applied in order to make it accessible.

I would never tell someone who showed up for a local non-UCI cross event they couldn't race with their disc brakes. I wouldn't even mention it. One assumes that when you come to a cross forum and ask about a UCI rule, you are asking because you care about what is happening at that level. The responses here reflect that, as they should. Why that's so hard for some to stomach?


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

aking legs said:


> One point I must offer as a fellow who has a job as an ME without the ME degree..
> 
> A smaller contact patch (ie: narrow tire) does not necessarily constitute less traction. I learned this very quickly many years ago driving over the mountains in VT with a little lightweight Honda: Narrow tires on slippery surface = better traction.
> 
> ...


You might tell that to all the pros who ran low pressure 34s in Bend a couple weeks ago. 
See the CX magazine post on what the pros were running. No hi psi 28s or 30s being run to improve traction on the, ice mud, or slippery grass. Not being snarky here, but an aggressive tread pattern with lower pressure will give a racer better control in most muddy or slippery conditions. 

Its one of those depends answers, you won't know what is the best tire for a course is until you try all those available to you. Its just wrong to say a skinny tire will always give better traction on slippery surfaces.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Magdaddy said:


> How can the cyclocross events themselves, and most of the racers/fans at them, be so damn accepting and encouraging to newbies...but many of you on here not be?


Because nobody minds having another dork to beat. 5th out of 60 seems more impressive than 5th out of 20.


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

jmoote said:


> Seriously, the whole disc-UCI debate only applies to elite racing.
> One assumes that when you come to a cross forum and ask about a UCI rule, you are asking because you care about what is happening at that level. The responses here reflect that, as they should. Why that's so hard for some to stomach?


Personally, I'd like to see them made legal, to spur the technological development of new products. Certainly, we should all be able to agree that technology drives the sport.

Although mtn bike racing is a whole other animal, technology has radically changed what the bikes look like at the cross country elite level. Look at just the changes in this last decade, and how the sport as a whole...at every level has benefitted from it.

Who would have thought even a few years ago, that a XC championship could be won riding a FS bike...let alone a 29erFS. It's rare at the starting line to see an elite racer not on a FS/disc/26" racer, very, very few hardtails left. Technology made the elite xc bikes lighter and faster, and the trickle down has driven an industry.

Racing improves the breed, and technology improves racing.

But then again, if it ain't broke?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Magdaddy said:


> Who would have thought even a few years ago, that a XC championship could be won riding a FS bike...let alone a 29erFS. It's rare at the starting line to see an elite racer not on a FS/disc/26" racer, very, very few hardtails left. Technology made the elite xc bikes lighter and faster, and the trickle down has driven an industry.
> 
> Racing improves the breed, and technology improves racing.
> 
> But then again, if it ain't broke?


Although I agree with you on allowing discs, and the overall improvements in technology that mountain biking has benefitted from..............the hardtail is still the go to bike for Elite Racers.


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## aking legs (Aug 30, 2009)

Your absolutley right of course. 

Tire pressure in tandem (not on a tandem) with knob shape, knob orientation, knob spacing, knob height, sidewall thickness, sidewall height, internal thread pattern, durometer, material composition and beading all come into play. 

I probably missed some things.


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## aking legs (Aug 30, 2009)

misterdangerpants said:


> Hope makes them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What is the lever thingy for at the top of the headset?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

aking legs said:


> What is the lever thingy for at the top of the headset?



That's a lockout for the headshock. The bike appears to be a Cannondale.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

When will the UCI allow wooden bats in cyclocross?


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

jroden said:


> I don't see it as any more inane than all the questions people ask about using a cross bike as a "do it all" bike to ride aroud fire roads and maybe race someday, or not, where to find tubular tires and the best kind of bike pedals to use for commuting on a cross bike.


Hey guys, I have this crazy idea to ride my cross bike year round and sell my road bike! Do you think that would work??


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

colinr said:


> Hey guys, I have this crazy idea to ride my cross bike year round and sell my road bike! Do you think that would work??


Does the UCI allow this?
Seeing you are one of the few here that actually rides in a UCI catergory...you tell us.
IMHO...you'd have to change your bar tape to make it work.....and use a wooden bat


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Some forum threads are blessed with posts that include intelligent wit and humor...shame mostly 3rd grade level 'cl-ass clowns' have followed this one.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

pleaase, just because some people get a little obsessive about disc brakes is no reason to call them a "cl-ass clown" (whatever that is). show a little respekt.

and now i must go back to arguing about the need to adopt the metric system in the US over in another forum.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

the mayor said:


> How does the UCI's rule affect you?


It affects everyone. As long as discs are banned in UCI races companies won't have the incentive to develop hydro dropbar levers. All the other parts of the equation (light hubs, rims, calipers, discs) have been refined on the MTB XC side. Do you think that would have happened if the parts couldn't have been showcased and tested at the highest level of competition? I feel comfortable saying that if discs were banned in UCI MTB XC they wouldn't be as refined and prevelent as they are today. Since they are a better brake system (indisputable) all MTBers have benefited from this.

I DON'T own a disc cross bike cuz I'm waiting for hydros. I think I'll be waiting a long time with the current situation.


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## yo mamma (Aug 10, 2009)

Road lever-compatible hydraulic disc brakes are a solution in search of a problem.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

jmoote said:


> We like to suck them in, and convert them to stuffy cyclocross curmudgeons as soon as they appear to be hooked, thus perpetuating the status quo
> 
> Seriously, the whole disc-UCI debate only applies to elite racing. Weekend warriors can do whatever they want but the *rules* are made to shape what the highest levels of the sport look like. What goes on in the lower categories should resemble this to some extent, but less of the rules are applied in order to make it accessible.
> 
> I would never tell someone who showed up for a local non-UCI cross event they couldn't race with their disc brakes. I wouldn't even mention it. One assumes that when you come to a cross forum and ask about a UCI rule, you are asking because you care about what is happening at that level. The responses here reflect that, as they should. Why that's so hard for some to stomach?


As a non-crosser, The thing I have found most entertaining is the logic displayed here. "Disc brakes are slow and heavy and therefore the UCI banned them--presumably to take away the unfair advantage that some have" (since slow and heavy is the objective?). Do you guys race to finish as far behind the others as possible? If so, the rule and its' defenders make perfect sense. Perhaps discs are better for long track stands? Have you considered bikes with a reverse gear?

Come on--who the hell ever heard of a racing authority banning things that are not an advantage?


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

yo mamma said:


> Road lever-compatible hydraulic disc brakes are a solution in search of a problem.


We won't know that until the best racers are offered them as an option. Would your world be turned upside down if half the pro field preferred them? If the weight is the same and the braking is more consistent and controlled why don't you think they'd become more popular? Cantis would only be used by traditionalists or non-UCI riders building ultra-light bikes (just like in MTB).
Remember, we are arguing about a hypothetical setup that won't exist until manufacturers are motivated to built it.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> Come on--who the hell ever heard of a racing authority banning things that are not an advantage?


You don't sound like someone who's familiar with how the UCI works...


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

d2p said:


> pleaase, just because some people get a little obsessive about disc brakes is no reason to call them a "cl-ass clown" (whatever that is). show a little respekt.
> 
> and now i must go back to arguing about the need to adopt the metric system in the US over in another forum.


Agreed. Calling the pro-disc crowd names isn't going to help anything.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*and cx mag*



aking legs said:


> Your absolutley right of course.
> 
> Tire pressure in tandem (not on a tandem) with knob shape, knob orientation, knob spacing, knob height, sidewall thickness, sidewall height, internal thread pattern, durometer, material composition and beading all come into play.
> 
> I probably missed some things.


earlier this year did a test and it showed lower psi was actually faster in certain conditions
I've seen and felt it when narrower/higher psi tires sank into the mire while the other tires 'floated' on the top
think of ATVs


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

Lelandjt said:


> If the weight is the same and the braking is more consistent and controlled why don't you think they'd become more popular?
> 
> Remember, we are arguing about a hypothetical setup that won't exist until manufacturers are motivated to built it.


I don't think they'd become more popular because braking is almost never a factor that determines the outcome of cyclocross races. 

Manufacturers already have lots of reasons to build hydro shift/brake levers and corresponding road and cross frame/forks. The UCI ban has nothing to do with it. 

If Shimano/Campy/Sram thought there was money to be made by developing this technology, they would invest the time/resources into creating it. It would be a bonus for them if top racers could use it to "prove" it to the public, but I don't think that's what's holding them back. The public is already hungry for "new" technology (think 11 speed and electric shifting)- discs could be easily marketed to the 99.9% of the cycling market that doesn't race.

But it seems that at this point, they don't feel that the money is there- simple as that.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

wunlap togo said:


> braking is almost never a factor that determines the outcome of cyclocross races.



Almost and not are two different things. If someone at the elite level thinks the "almost never" factor means "sometimes a win is on the line" then you will start to see changes. And at the elite level, sometimes its just those fractions that matter. Personally, I don't think it will matter if Pretender comes in 6th with or without discs. He will most likely still be 6th, despite the "weight penalty." The point is that the rule is in place for no legitimate reason. It would be nice to see what could happen with drops and disc brakes and CX racing..........of course the need for STI hydro shifters could be somewhat negated if the "flat bar" rule were also removed. (Now that's opening a whole new can of worms)


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

88 rex said:


> Almost and not are two different things. If someone at the elite level thinks the "almost never" factor means "sometimes a win is on the line" then you will start to see changes. And at the elite level, sometimes its just those fractions that matter. Personally, I don't think it will matter if Pretender comes in 6th with or without discs. He will most likely still be 6th, despite the "weight penalty." The point is that the rule is in place for no legitimate reason. It would be nice to see what could happen with drops and disc brakes and CX racing..........of course the need for STI hydro shifters could be somewhat negated if the "flat bar" rule were also removed. (Now that's opening a whole new can of worms)


There is a place where you can run disc brakes and flat bars at the Pro level...it's called mountain biking.And YOU can run flat bars...WITH disc brakes.. in cross races...except at UCI races in the pro class.
So...what was the point of all this again?
A request for disc ready cross frames? They're available...but not many buy them.
Disc brakes....mechanicals are available
Hydro levers? They are available( for flat bars)...but not many use them
Flat bars? You can use them...but not many do.
This all reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer designs the car of his dreams...one that he would never buy.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

88 rex said:


> Almost and not are two different things. If someone at the elite level thinks the "almost never" factor means "sometimes a win is on the line" then you will start to see changes. And at the elite level, sometimes its just those fractions that matter. Personally, I don't think it will matter if Pretender comes in 6th with or without discs. He will most likely still be 6th, despite the "weight penalty." The point is that the rule is in place for no legitimate reason. It would be nice to see what could happen with drops and disc brakes and CX racing..........of course the need for STI hydro shifters could be somewhat negated if the "flat bar" rule were also removed. (Now that's opening a whole new can of worms)


In this case, "almost never" means not often enough for serious racers to care. 

I agree that the rule is silly and there's no need for it. But because I know that disc brakes are overkill for cyclocross and that even if they were widely available to elites they still wouldn't get much use, this rule is sort of dear to me since it gets folks (mostly non racers with a mtb background) all worked up.


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

wunlap togo said:


> In this case, "almost never" means not often enough for serious racers to care.
> 
> I agree that the rule is silly and there's no need for it. But because I know that disc brakes are overkill for cyclocross and that even if they were widely available to elites they still wouldn't get much use, this rule is sort of dear to me since it gets folks (mostly non racers with a mtb background) all worked up.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Most real elite CX has a mtn. bike background (Trebon, and Dunlap just to name a few) and I've even personally heard at bend nat. that they wouldn't hesitate to go disc at UCI events. Even local pros are grumbling about not being able to use disc. I'm sure in your part of the country more CX may have road backgrounds which may account for the differences in opinions about disc. 

I think that discussion gets heated because of miss-information about disc. The majority doesn't like to see public display of stupidity from the rim camp, we do think you have worthwhile intellectual, fact based contributions to make, but we are all puzzled it's absent. 

BTW, if brakes are not needed to win a CX race, then why not remove them all together? I mean, isn't cantis weighing you down for something you don't use? Isn't weight on of your reasons not to use disc?

This is no different than when mtn. biking moved from V to disc in early part of this decade. There were die-hard rim brake elites questioning disc with the same amount of ignorance. CX is in a similar transitional movement, though the difference is that disc is now a matured technology that hasn't been smartly allied to CX and not because its inferior. In the late 90's disc really was inferior, but through tinkering at the elite level, disc had matured beyond rim. I recall going to mtn bike races and seeing prototype disc along with rear suspension designs at every team tent. Some worked, some failed spectacularly. 

That's what's missing in CX right now, all that tinkering and excitement of unproven innovation. You do see sparks of innovation in the way of chain gaurds at ben nat. as seen on cycling news, but its pretty tame.

CX has the potential of elevating disc to another level of innovation through more weight reduction, smarter frame integration, and wheel tech. These are far easier challenges than what mtn. bikes had to endure with disc in the 90's. Lessons learned from CX disc will no doubt benifit mtn. bike disc in return. I even see CX disc as a critical proving ground for "race" road disc tech. That's why passing off disc as heavy is really a shallow way of viewing CX.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Seems to me that the "pro disc" camp mostly wants UCI to just remove the disc ban and let racers, manufacturers, etc make there choices from there

Seems the "anti-disc" camp feels they have a crystal ball into the future and argue that cyclocross will 'never need or want" new braking technology, that and the intimidation argument that unless you are an 'elite' racer you shouldn't care and should not even participate in the discussion.


In the mountain biking world, disc brakes and full suspension are 2 examples of new technology that when first appeared many said "...why would I need more braking power?" or "Heavier full suspension bikes will never be used for racing..." Heck, I said that myself and I was wrong which is one big reason why I feel strongly about this subject. If there had been such a near-sighted approach, we would not have the amazing lightweight FS racing rigs of today. Oh yeah, and only now are tubeless tires entering the road and Cx market after years (maybe even a decade) in the off-road world.


Whether the disc brake ban affects us individually as racers or not is irrelevant. There is no objective argument that I have heard on why they should remain bannned at any level. On the other hand, I have heard many solid reason why lifitng the ban would be beneficial to many, mostly via trickle down racing technology (EDIT:nicely expressed above nony)

Who can predict technology evolution? What seems impossible or unecessary today is the standard of tomorrow ( as we have seen over and over in all aspects of life, from cell phones to the internet to name but 2)


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

> The public is already hungry for "new" technology (think 11 speed and electric shifting)- discs could be easily marketed to the 99.9% of the cycling market that doesn't race.


Yes, but 99.9% of the market wants to look like they DO race.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

adimiro said:


> Seems to me that the "pro disc" camp mostly wants UCI to just remove the disc ban and let racers, manufacturers, etc make there choices from there
> 
> Seems the "anti-disc" camp feels they have a crystal ball into the future and argue that cyclocross will 'never need or want" new braking technology, that and the intimidation argument that unless you are an 'elite' racer you shouldn't care and should not even participate in the discussion.


Seems that I'm in both camps- I think the rule should be lifted and I also think that when it does get lifted, you will see very few pros using it.

If you are not an elite racer.... wait for it.... YOU CAN ALREADY USE DISC BRAKES.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

Dajianshan said:


> Yes, but 99.9% of the market wants to look like they DO race.


And for them, there will always be the poor performance and dashing good looks of cantis!


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

wunlap togo said:


> get lifted, you will see very few pros using it.


Don't take the is the wrong way, but based on what evidence? Nony and adimiro expressed their opinions and backed up their theory with historical trends in cycling. Can you provide evidence that can support your theory? Any links? Written essays from respected critics in cycling? Pictures? Diagrams? Mathematical equations? notes from your mom or urologist?


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

wunlap togo said:


> Seems that I'm in both camps- I think the rule should be lifted and I also think that when it does get lifted, you will see very few pros using it.
> 
> If you are not an elite racer.... wait for it.... YOU CAN ALREADY USE DISC BRAKES.



uhhh, where did I say I couldn't??? But you seem to think non-elite racers shouldn't even be allowed to participate in this discussion. 

Please refer to above post by kata and instead of continuing your fact-less INTIMIDATION and INSULTING tactics and sweeping predicitions of the future, try to present a congent argument.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I think a big part of it is that the pros often determine what the consumer will buy and thus the UCI ban on discs ultimately limits the choices available to the consumer. So, although you can already use disc brakes, you are limited to a handful of suitable frames. This won't change unless some pros start using discs and then all the amateurs can freely use discs without looking amateur.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

kata said:


> Don't take the is the wrong way, but based on what evidence?


Based on personal experience. 

I raced about ~20 UCI events a year in 2004, 2005 and 2006 in the US and one year I raced for a month in Belgium. For the last 3 years I've been racing locally here in northern California- not UCI races, but hard well attended events where cross is very popular. I've had good success nationally and locally- top 20 at nat's one year, 12th place at a USGP once and 12 wins in 25 local starts last year. This year was good too- 5 wins, overall win in the Bay Area Super Prestige series and a 4th place in the 30-34 race at Nat's.

I've worked as a mechanic for pro teams and individual racers on the road and in cyclocross (wrenched for the Canadian national team at CX World Championships in St. Wendel Germany). I have my own business as a private mechanic for people in my area (marin/ SF) and I've been supporting myself as a wrench for the last 3 years. I worked for 10 years in bike shops before that, and I went to UBI when I was 19. 

I have discs on my mtb. I've ridden cx bikes with discs. I've worked on hundreds and hundreds of bikes with disc brakes. 

In my opinion; because of the unique nature of cyclocross racing, extremely good brakes are of little importance. This will be very difficult to believe if you have not raced cyclocross, or even if you have not raced much cyclocross. This is no reason to outlaw them for UCI Elites, and I'm sure some racers would try them if they could (especially when they're paid to ride them...) but I'm going to bet that after a short time they'd disappear from the top racer's bikes. 

Now, back to being an asshat and making fun of this tired, tired discussion.


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

wunlap togo said:


> Based on personal experience.


Hmmm, I would work on presenting us with a note from your mom or urologist, because I can invent fictitious, unverifiable facts about my life, too. Any other VERIFIABLE evidence? 



> I have discs on my mtb. I've ridden cx bikes with discs. I've worked on hundreds and hundreds of bikes with disc brakes.


Yet you seem to know so little about discs...


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

wow.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

wunlap togo said:


> Based on personal experience.
> 
> I raced about ~20 UCI events a year in 2004, 2005 and 2006 in the US and one year I raced for a month in Belgium.


Very impressive resume that I'll buy into, but I don't find your qualifications on knowing what future bike racing (braking or otherwise) technology looms in the horizon. Your opinion is well, your opinion...no better or worse than those who disagree.

Shame you don't share your extensive knowledge and experience in a more constructive way





wunlap togo said:


> Now, back to being an asshat and making fun of this tired, tired discussion


The simple solution to this tired discussion for you is to stop posting comments. However, the asshat part requires a more creative solution.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

"Very impressive resume that I'll buy into, but I don't find your qualifications on knowing what future bike racing (braking or otherwise) technology looms in the horizon. Your opinion is well, your opinion...no better or worse than those who disagree."

Definitely just my opinion! I've never claimed otherwise.

"Shame you don't share your extensive knowledge and experience in a more constructive way"

Oh, come on. Sarcasm and mockery can be constructive.

"The simple solution to this tired discussion for you is to stop posting comments. However, the asshat part requires a more creative solution."

Not necessarily.:thumbsup:


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## bikenerd (Jan 22, 2004)

adimiro said:


> Shame you don't share your extensive knowledge and experience in a more constructive way


Were you to do a search, you would find that he has done just that, repeatedly, for the last several years. And being that his experience includes racing and wrenching at the Elite level, his opinions, although not applicable to everyone, are backed by more experience than most of us have. I've chatted with him at races, and he's a good guy off the internet as well.




adimiro said:


> The simple solution to this tired discussion for you is to stop posting comments.


This option is available to you too . . .


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

bikenerd said:


> Were you to do a search, you would find that he has done just that, repeatedly, for the last several years. And being that his experience includes racing and wrenching at the Elite level, his opinions, although not applicable to everyone, are backed by more experience than most of us have. I've chatted with him at races, and he's a good guy off the internet as well.


And if you do your search on this thread, his responses are condescending and immature which do not support your claim of a good guy. His behavior certainly do not describe an elite level cyclist. People of such experience are PROFESSIONALS and do not stoop down to belittle people of different opinions. (sarcasm)

In addition, he has yet to even acknowledge his disgraceful condescending behavior and apologize for throwing insults. Yeah, elite level here.

Wunlap, I'm trying to offer constructive criticism, but cheaterbar.blogspot.com/ sounds like a porn site. Just sayun.


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

jmoote said:


> wow.


No schit huh? It's like if you ride discs your penis isn't big enough so you have to compensate.....


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

Yeah, wunlap does a top 5 in one of the fastest fields at Nats and gets accused of fabricating his credentials. This place is awesome.


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## Unoveloce (Apr 13, 2005)

wunlap togo said:


> I don't think they'd become more popular because braking is almost never a factor that determines the outcome of cyclocross races.
> 
> Manufacturers already have lots of reasons to build hydro shift/brake levers and corresponding road and cross frame/forks. The UCI ban has nothing to do with it.
> 
> ...


Wunlap hits on a great point. Often manufacturers use the pros to sell what they are making. Take for instance Shimano and electric shifting. Do you think there were pros demanding that their shift cables be replaced with servos, or is Shimano using their sponsored athletes and industry might to help move product. It happens all the time with good and bad product. And, quite often the pros are used to beta test the product before it comes to market. However, if the manufacturers really thought that discs on *cross race bikes* used at the highest level were financially successful, then we would have seen them in development before the rule took place. I imagine their will be a time when many of the bikes come with disc brakes, just not in the immediate future. (5-10 years) and even then I doubt it at the elite level regardless of any UCI rules.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

from someone who posts long, silly posts - "People of such experience are PROFESSIONALS and do not stoop down to belittle people of different opinions." 

oh please, are you living in fantasy land?


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

*Take your case to the UCI*

Nony and Adimiro, 

It is clear that you have superior polemic skills and are open and progressive minded individuals. Narrow minded individuals like me that really do not need another reason to sink another 2K in this high paying hobby are not too worried how the UCI feels about how I stop my bike during an cx race. 

The technology of disc brakes is well proven. All the way up to 787s. I loove disc brakes on my mtn bike, but in the end any type of racing is about the fastest guy or gal to the finish under the same set of rules. Yeah the UCI is lame in their reasoning....... that is why they exist - to be lame. But it doesn't affect you or me, or 99.99% of the cx racers in the USA let alone those that do not race.

The good news is that given your passion about bringing this technology to cx, you are the best individuals to take the case to the UCI for a change. While you are at it, can you petition the Olympic committee to admit cx as a winter sport? Or, you can use this technology to your advantage at the next race against the canti luddite crowd and claim the top step on the podium. Because after its all said and done, at a cx race that's all that matters. Well, that and the beer that is served afterward.

Best to not waste your skills here, you have much bigger fish to fry with the UCI.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

I just love that the Salsa "La Cruz. Steel. Disc Only. Cross." ad is running non-stop on the top of this thread.


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

bikenerd said:


> Were you to do a search, you would find that he has done just that, repeatedly, for the last several y.


Bikenerd, with all due respect, you seriously have to work hard to ignore wunlup behavior on this thread. Considering he didn't hesitate to dis-credit other posters, karma maybe giving a can-o-woop-a$$ right back at him. Did he advocate fairness and respect on this thread? I'd say not. 

What's worse? joe-troll talking smack, or a former CX champ who has resorted to playground bully tactics? I think the latter is worse as I tend to hold elite riders to a higher standard. After seeing his behavior, I would put wunlup in the, "has been" category along with suspected dopers. That's fine if you and others can look past poor behavior. 

This forum is now a permanent record of his condescending behavior for future CX folks to refer the next time they hear some poor sap say, "he's a great guy".

As a business owner, I have to wonder why on earth would you demonstrate such bad behavior in the same community you make a living in?


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

PaleAleYum said:


> Nony and Adimiro,
> 
> Best to not waste your skills here, you have much bigger fish to fry with the UCI.



As far as I can tell, this forum is open to all who wish to express their ideas. Different ideas and opinions, when expressed respectfully, benefit everyone. 

Should disc brakes be allowed at all racing levels? 
Yes, unless the UCI presents a logical argument why not. The fact that it is allowed at _all other_ levels except Elite class, to me is illogical.

Do I run discs on my CX bike? 
No. But I sure would like to see the technology evolve to where it (maybe) becomes something I do want. 

Should Cx be an Olympic Sport? 
In my heart, yes of course. Unfortunately, BMX was just added in Bejing (and something was taken away, can't remember which event). My understanding is the Olympic Committee's has set a ceiling to number of competions. Also, I suspect that US CX racers need to become more competitive on an international level before USA Olympic cycling governing body petitions on their behalf (a discussion worthy of it's own thread).

Finally, everyone who posts on this forum is clearly passionate about cyclocross. This passion is bettter channeled into mutual respect instead of ammunition to attack each other.


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

PaleAleYum said:


> Nony and Adimiro,
> 
> Best to not waste your skills here, you have much bigger fish to fry with the UCI.


I'd also like to add that the original outrage on this tread was about a small group of self proclaimed elitists publicly humiliating a certain segment of the CX community. That same group has proven unable to positively and intellectually engage in a constructive debate. 

The result was, well, they got served.

I think the lesson here is if you want respect, then dish out respect to others.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

pacificaslim said:


> I just love that the Salsa "La Cruz. Steel. Disc Only. Cross." ad is running non-stop on the top of this thread.


I think Webster could use that for THE definition of irony!


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

adimiro said:


> As far as I can tell, this forum is open to all who wish to express their ideas. Different ideas and opinions, when expressed respectfully, benefit everyone.
> 
> Do I run discs on my CX bike?
> No. But I sure would like to see the technology evolve to where it (maybe) becomes something I do want.
> ...


So after all this...you don't run discs...and probably never will. But you want them there, just in case.
And we should all sit around the campfire, hugging and singing Kumbaya.
Ok then.
Please say hello to the Teletubbies for me.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

kata said:


> I'd also like to add that the original outrage on this tread was about a small group of self proclaimed elitists publicly humiliating a certain segment of the CX community. That same group has proven unable to positively and intellectually engage in a constructive debate.
> 
> The result was, well, they got served.
> 
> I think the lesson here is if you want respect, then dish out respect to others.


Someone "got served"?( I loved that movie...wasn't as good as " Breakin 2: Electric Boogallo" though)
I missed the dance off again?


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

kata said:


> I'd also like to add that the original outrage on this tread was about a small group of self proclaimed elitists publicly humiliating a certain segment of the CX community. That same group has proven unable to positively and intellectually engage in a constructive debate.


Actually, if you'll go back to the first few responses you'll see that the original "outrage" was from me and a few others who post here a lot (and race cyclocross a lot) regarding the fact that we're going to have to talk about this AGAIN. 

The ensuing hilarity was the result of some informed and normally very helpful cyclocross racers pretending to engage some singularly determined disc enthusiasts (presumably non-racers?) in a pointless and protracted debate about the UCI and their stuffy rules ON CHRISTMAS. 

The whole thing has been very silly. As well it should be, this dead horse got well beat long ago. If you had gotten involved in this conversation 5 or 6 years ago when folks first began proclaiming that discs would soon become standard equipment on cyclocross bikes you would have gotten some more carefully thought out responses. Nowadays, not so much.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

wunlap togo said:


> Actually, if you'll go back to the first few responses you'll see that the original "outrage" was from me and a few others who post here a lot (and race cyclocross a lot) regarding the fact that we're going to have to talk about this AGAIN.
> 
> The ensuing hilarity was the result of some informed and normally very helpful cyclocross racers pretending to engage some singularly determined disc enthusiasts (presumably non-racers?) in a pointless and protracted debate about the UCI and their stuffy rules ON CHRISTMAS.
> 
> The whole thing has been very silly. As well it should be, this dead horse got well beat long ago. If you had gotten involved in this conversation 5 or 6 years ago when folks first began proclaiming that discs would soon become standard equipment on cyclocross bikes you would have gotten some more carefully thought out responses. Nowadays, not so much.


Oh yeah!
Who do you think you are?!? You hurt my inner child!
Oh wait...I know who you are...and I'm on your side.
Damn...I'm so confused!
Somebody hug me!!!!
Kumbaya my Lord...Kumbaya.....everybody sing along....


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

the mayor said:


> Oh yeah!
> Who do you think you are?!? You hurt my inner child!
> Oh wait...I know who you are...and I'm on your side.
> Damn...I'm so confused!
> ...



kumbayaaaaa my lord....

Wait! I know how we can heal the horrible wounds, and I can restore my permanently tarnished reputation. Let's start over, with a new conversation.

What's better, tubulars or clinchers? Has anyone tried setting up tubeless for cyclocross?


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

wunlap togo said:


> Actually, if you'll go back to the first few responses you'll see that the original "outrage" was from me and a few others who post here a lot (and race cyclocross a lot) regarding the fact that we're going to have to talk about this AGAIN.


Spoken like a true doper. We all know you don't really race, clean at least. 

Don't like to see this topic spoken again? Then move on and don't humiliate those who do want to talk about it.

Yeah, I have to agree your blogspot address sounds really bad, too.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

wunlap togo said:


> kumbayaaaaa my lord....
> 
> Wait! I know how we can heal the horrible wounds, and I can restore my permanently tarnished reputation. Let's start over, with a new conversation.
> 
> What's better, tubulars or clinchers? Has anyone tried setting up tubeless for cyclocross?


Lordy Lordy!
The healing has begun!
Maybe we can get Rodney King to say a few words.And look who's here!!


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

kata said:


> Spoken like a true doper. We all know you don't really race, clean at least.
> 
> Don't like to see this topic spoken again? Then move on and don't humiliate those who do want to talk about it.
> 
> Yeah, I have to agree your blogspot address sounds really bad, too.


WOW!!
Did you take too many Estrogen pills today?


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

Wow, i just wasted an entire lunch break reading this. Definitely more entertaining than the last few times we discussed this issue. The new guys on here really have some endurance on this subject. Oh & Josh (Wunlap) I'm not sure I can be friends with you anymore you elitest roadie snob. kidding of course.

DP


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

kata said:


> Spoken like a true doper. We all know you don't really race, clean at least.
> 
> Don't like to see this topic spoken again? Then move on and don't humiliate those who do want to talk about it.
> 
> Yeah, I have to agree your blogspot address sounds really bad, too.


Hahahahaaha.... thread. over. Yes, your local A racer winner must be doping. That's the only explanation. I mean his blog is called "cheater bar" could it be any more obvious?? Surely a *cheater bar* is a drinking establishment where dudes do shots of EPO? You can't really expect me to google it, right?


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Lelandjt said:


> Exactly, I've never owned a carbon CX fork but the article and responses on Velonews make it sound like the brake bosses flex and the braking is shuddery and not very controlled. Who wouldn't want more consistent braking?
> I used to race cross regularly when I lived in New England and frequently won in both Junior and open so know what it feels like to go fast in sloppy CX conditions.
> This thread can end cuz all I wanted to know is if anything is changing with the UCI. Apparently not, so enjoy your cantis boys.


You know...we should have taken your advice and ended this days ago.
But oh, what fun we've had, eh?
When were you in New England?
Come on back...you can do close to 30 races in our season.
And unless you are running Elite at one of the 14 UCI races...you can run discs.
Hell...I got a couple of disc bikes I've been trying to sell for years ( but no one wants disc frames??)


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

kata said:


> Spoken like a true doper. We all know you don't really race, clean at least.
> 
> Don't like to see this topic spoken again? Then move on and don't humiliate those who do want to talk about it.
> 
> Yeah, I have to agree your blogspot address sounds really bad, too.


This belongs in the RBR Poast Hall of Fame.....


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## Thom H (Aug 25, 2009)

Wow, Who put the gunpowder in the cornflakes for Christmas?( For those that don't know about that question. Hillbillys, dog fighters and dope growers put a pinch of it in in the dog food to make the dogs mean and agressive.) I do not condone that, but use the phrase as I sort of ignored this thread over the Holiday because it has been beat to death much like the tubular/ clincher debate and if Lance dopes discussions. For those that don't use the search function, it has been discussed a lot on this forum. I did notice not much love on the site for Christmas. I also will predict that a week after worlds traffic will die on this forum till late July just like always does. And we will bring up these discussions where we left off.
I bought my first cross bike in 1972. It had canties as do every other cross bike I ever bought since. I never once thought "Wow I sure need better brakes on my cross bike" I thought that plenty of times on my mtbs in the early 80s as I was going over the cliff. I still have a V-brake mtb that I am happy with and a Moots mtb with discs that I totally love. I agree disc brakes work better than cantis. I will never own a cross bike with disc brakes as my four ti cross bikes should last me the 20 or so years I have in my life left (God willing).
When Jerry in Vermont and Wunlap speak, I generally listen to them as those two guys race info is available on USACycling results page and both are fast, experienced and have wrench/engineering backgrounds. They both think like I do. But I don't own any external Bearing BB and have a supply enough of Campy/Phil BB and cranks to replace any one I need in the next 20 years. And I believe they both run external bb.
I did notice the first salvos were fired by NONY" You guys sound creditable what grade are you in?" and then Kata says" Ignorant snotty Roadie responses" in the first few posts setting the tone. Then some of the old regulars send a few salvos back and the games begin.
Bottom line I don't give a rats if the UCI changes their position and all the bikes come with discs. Won't change a thing for me in my lifetime. My road and cross bikes will have rim brakes and the new mtbs will have discs. With my 20 some horses in the stable I probably won't buy another road or cross bike but may buy a 29er some day. (With Discs)
So I think we should disclose what exactly NONY and Kata have done on their Cross Resumes so we can learn to respect their expert knowledge and background as reference people on this forum much like we do with Jerry, the mayor, and Wunlap. What about it guys? Are we going to unveil the or stay in the shadows of the cyberworld?
Happy Holidays and a brave New Year. Thom


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Thom H said:


> Wow, Who put the gunpowder in the cornflakes for Christmas?( For those that don't know about that question. Hillbillys, dog fighters and dope growers put a pinch of it in in the dog food to make the dogs mean and agressive.)
> Bottom line I don't give a rats if the UCI changes their position and all the bikes come with discs. Won't change a thing for me in my lifetime. My road and cross bikes will have rim brakes and the new mtbs will have discs. With my 20 some horses in the stable I probably won't buy another road or cross bike but may buy a 29er some day. (With Discs)
> So I think we should disclose what exactly NONY and Kata have done on their Cross Resumes so we can learn to respect their expert knowledge and background as reference people on this forum much like we do with Jerry, the mayor, and Wunlap. What about it guys? Are we going to unveil the or stay in the shadows of the cyberworld?
> Happy Holidays and a brave New Year. Thom


Spoken like a true doper!
In a good way....in a gunpowder in cornflakes good way.
Although I think you would be a better person if you'd a least try disc brakes on your cross bike...just to see they ain't "all that"( like I did)
And get a 29er...you will like it ( or else!)...discs and all .
Happy H-days back at cha!


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

ZoomBoy said:


> This belongs in the RBR Poast Hall of Fame.....


I already nominated it in "2009 end of season awards" thread...ftw!


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

Thom H said:


> Wow, Who put the gunpowder in the cornflakes for Christmas?( For those that don't know about that question. Hillbillys, dog fighters and dope growers put a pinch of it in in the dog food to make the dogs mean and agressive.) I do not condone that, but use the phrase as I sort of ignored this thread over the Holiday because it has been beat to death much like the tubular/ clincher debate and if Lance dopes discussions. For those that don't use the search function, it has been discussed a lot on this forum. I did notice not much love on the site for Christmas. I also will predict that a week after worlds traffic will die on this forum till late July just like always does. And we will bring up these discussions where we left off.
> I bought my first cross bike in 1972. It had canties as do every other cross bike I ever bought since. I never once thought "Wow I sure need better brakes on my cross bike" I thought that plenty of times on my mtbs in the early 80s as I was going over the cliff. I still have a V-brake mtb that I am happy with and a Moots mtb with discs that I totally love. I agree disc brakes work better than cantis. I will never own a cross bike with disc brakes as my four ti cross bikes should last me the 20 or so years I have in my life left (God willing).
> When Jerry in Vermont and Wunlap speak, I generally listen to them as those two guys race info is available on USACycling results page and both are fast, experienced and have wrench/engineering backgrounds. They both think like I do. But I don't own any external Bearing BB and have a supply enough of Campy/Phil BB and cranks to replace any one I need in the next 20 years. And I believe they both run external bb.
> I did notice the first salvos were fired by NONY" You guys sound creditable what grade are you in?" and then Kata says" Ignorant snotty Roadie responses" in the first few posts setting the tone. Then some of the old regulars send a few salvos back and the games begin.
> ...


gets it! well said


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

DPCX said:


> gets it! well said


Dear DPCX ( if that is your real name!),
It is very humiliating when you say ThomH gets it and do not acknowledge other's contributions. This hurts our self esteem and may cause bed wetting.
We are all winners here.
Kumbaya......


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Oh...now I understand the tactics for getting into the >1000 RBR posts club.!


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

the mayor said:


> Dear DPCX ( if that is your real name!),
> It is very humiliating when you say ThomH gets it and do not acknowledge other's contributions. This hurts our self esteem and may cause bed wetting.
> We are all winners here.
> Kumbaya......


mayor. I appologize. i only had 30 minutes to power read this thread & didnt get a chance to recognize everyone that i agree with. 

the Mayor get its too!!! :thumbsup: 

DP (my secret initials)


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

adimiro said:


> Oh...now I understand the tactics for getting into the >1000 RBR posts club.!


You're catching on. 
Kumbaya.....


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

DPCX said:


> mayor. I appologize. i only had 30 minutes to power read this thread & didnt get a chance to recognize everyone that i agree with.
> 
> the Mayor get its too!!! :thumbsup:
> 
> DP (my secret initials)


oh thank you...thank you....
I'm a winner!
My seat just got a little wet...
but that just means less on the mattress tonight!!


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## Thom H (Aug 25, 2009)

So Mr. Mayor can you find an extra 6K$ in the city budget to get me a new cross bike with discs to try? I am pretty happy with my Matt Chester, Moots , and Kish ti cross bikes as well as the two Jakes of Snake and Soulcraft (steel for real) without the discs. But if the Mayor insists, I can do a disc cross bike and am open to changing my ideas


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## bikenerd (Jan 22, 2004)

kata said:


> Yeah, I have to agree your blogspot address sounds really bad, too.


Since kata brought it up, and in an effort to steer this annoying, bloated, no-longer-relevant (think Rosie O'Donnell, Rush Limbaugh) thread in a productive direction, I'd like to point out to Josh that his blog has not been updated for 13 months. I know you haven't spend ALL of that time trying to get your cantis to stop as well as discs, so what gives? We need some updates! You could even blog about his thread . . . .


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

the mayor said:


> You're catching on.
> Kumbaya.....


Thanks Mayor, your approval means everything....and I got 1 more post for saying so.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Thom H said:


> So Mr. Mayor can you find an extra 6K$ in the city budget to get me a new cross bike with discs to try? I am pretty happy with my Matt Chester, Moots , and Kish ti cross bikes as well as the two Jakes of Snake and Soulcraft (steel for real) without the discs. But if the Mayor insists, I can do a disc cross bike and am open to changing my ideas


Be careful what you wish for!
I rode disc mtb's in the 90's...and never went back ( even though discs were quirky back then)
I rode disc cross bikes back in 2000ish.
I was hot on the idea...until I realized I had to build up 3 disc tubular wheelsets...that didn't work on anything else...where I used to be able to use my road wheels.
They worked ok...but weighed more.
And I couldn't borrow a wheel in an emergency.
And it took for ever to sell the bike ( I still have one that's a winter bike because I couldn't get rid of it).And the discs are overkill on the road...but oddly, I have discs on my road tandem, because slowing down 350 lbs is very different than 180lbs.
But...if you'd like to submit form ou812-69 in triplicate and bring it to the clerks office between the hours of 16:00 and never...we would be glad to see if it will fit in the budget(which has already been decided)


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

bikenerd said:


> Since kata brought it up, and in an effort to steer this annoying, bloated, no-longer-relevant (think Rosie O'Donnell, Rush Limbaugh) thread in a productive direction, I'd like to point out to Josh that his blog has not been updated for 13 months. I know you haven't spend ALL of that time trying to get your cantis to stop as well as discs, so what gives? We need some updates! You could even blog about his thread . . . .


Wait a minute!
Wunlap hasn't been keeping his blog up to date?
He shall be banished from the forum immediately!


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

adimiro said:


> Thanks Mayor, your approval means everything....and I got 1 more post for saying so.


I neither approve or disapprove...I merely observe.
You have learned well, Grasshopper.
The Fork is strong in this one.
Use the Fork!


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

the mayor said:


> I neither approve or disapprove...I merely observe.
> You have learned well, Grasshopper.
> The Fork is strong in this one.
> Use the Fork!



use the fork unless it weighs more than 620 grams atmo.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

e-RICHIE said:


> use the fork unless it weighs more than 620 grams atmo.


The Master enters the room.
All bow!


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

the mayor said:


> The Master enters the room.
> All bow!


i thought i should weigh in once in a while atmo.
ps josh snead is the real deal, huh.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

e-RICHIE said:


> i thought i should weigh in once in a while atmo.
> ps josh snead is the real deal, huh.


He was the real deal...till I found out he hasn't updated his blog...no more street cred IMHO.
If I actually read blogs...I'd be mad and blog about it.(where other people wouldn't read my blog...and so on)


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

bikenerd said:


> Since kata brought it up, and in an effort to steer this annoying, bloated, no-longer-relevant (think Rosie O'Donnell, Rush Limbaugh) thread in a productive direction, I'd like to point out to Josh that his blog has not been updated for 13 months. I know you haven't spend ALL of that time trying to get your cantis to stop as well as discs, so what gives? We need some updates! You could even blog about his thread . . . .


And for the record:
Rosie O'Donnell will always be relevant...I just got a thing for over eating melon headed gals. They make me tingle.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

bikenerd said:


> Since kata brought it up, and in an effort to steer this annoying, bloated, no-longer-relevant (think Rosie O'Donnell, Rush Limbaugh) thread in a productive direction, I'd like to point out to Josh that his blog has not been updated for 13 months. I know you haven't spend ALL of that time trying to get your cantis to stop as well as discs, so what gives? We need some updates! You could even blog about his thread . . . .


Yeah, I should post on the blog. As I've kind of decided to keep things local for the last few years, most of my friends who are concerned with my results or races are at the races watching so I've kind of just tried to "say it with my legs" and not make too much of a big deal about my success or lack thereof on the internet. I also usually don't like reading race reports, so I don't want to subject everyone to mine.

You can see most of my best performances from this year on TheNCCScene page on youtube. They have really good footage with commentary and interviews at the end; watching videos is way more fun than reading race reports. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNCCScene

I guess I could use the blog to talk about stuff other than my races. Maybe I'll see about getting back into writing on there, I know my mom likes to read it.


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## Thom H (Aug 25, 2009)

But Mayor, Can't I just fill out the Obama quick form, cure the National debt, reform healthcare and solve the age old problem of tubulars vs clinchers vs tubeless once and for all and get a free new bike with three sets of King wheels with FMBS disc approved of course? Why did I vote for you twice in the last election any hows?


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

Man, I leave for 12 hours and now we're discussing post counts and e-RICHIE joins in. I definitely agree that this round of the canti/disc debate has been way more entertaining than the last few.

Now we need to get the same people arguing about tubeless cross tires or whether a steel cross bike can win races


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

the mayor said:


> You know...we should have taken your advice and ended this days ago.
> But oh, what fun we've had, eh?


Seriously, I sure did stir up some sh*t with a simple request for an update.


the mayor said:


> When were you in New England?


Lived and raced in New England until graduating from UMASS in 2003. Have you ever raced the CX on our campus? It was a lot of fun.


the mayor said:


> Unless you are running Elite at one of the 14 UCI races...you can run discs.


Yeah, but before I'd consider it there would have to be light, nice hydro drop levers. My guess is that these won't be developed so long as they can't be used and advertised at the top level.

I honestly don't care that much about the ban. I'd just be curious see where things would go if the ban were lifted. Of course, then we'd have to find another hypothetical to argue about but I'm sure we could come up with something


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

jmoote said:


> Man, I leave for 12 hours and now we're discussing post counts and e-RICHIE joins in. I definitely agree that this round of the canti/disc debate has been way more entertaining than the last few.
> 
> Now we need to get the same people arguing about tubeless cross tires or whether a steel cross bike can win races



i won five in 09 and dan won six.
pookums won a few as well.
i reckon our advantage is the 26.0 'bars.

we'll take the odds atmo.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

e-RICHIE said:


> i won five in 09 and dan won six.
> pookums won a few as well.
> i reckon our advantage is the 26.0 'bars.
> 
> we'll take the odds atmo.


No way you guys could have done it without those heavy wheels too


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## Thom H (Aug 25, 2009)

The sounds of the Christmas Canti post jumping the shark. Sploosh....So I guess if you stray far enough from the original topic and move into the WTF reality of the obtuse the OP and buddies gave up on these bunch of whack jobs?. 
Do the e-ritchie bikes use mechanical or hydro discs on their round tube Fe based potmetal frames? Hmmm? Or do they put canties on those boat anchors to make them lighter? Well at least they didn't have a bar fight on top of those beauties at Nats like last year.
You mean it isn't about the bike, but rider skill and fitness have something to do with winning cross races? Oh my, guess all my bikes need to go up on the bay today.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Send me a couple in a size 52 and I will... er... run some... er... controlled field tests on them. Maybe a model with disc tabs, one without and one with no brakes at all as the control. It'll be like Mythbusters with bikes.


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## Hand/of/Midas (Apr 15, 2008)

Seriously. stop. end thread. time for a commercial break. come back next year. goodbye.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

This get so slow around here come January... it's not an election year... there needs to be something to fight about.


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## morganfletcher (Oct 18, 2004)

nony said:


> Hmmm, I would work on presenting us with a note from your mom or urologist, because I can invent fictitious, unverifiable facts about my life, too. Any other VERIFIABLE evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you seem to know so little about discs...


I know Wunlap Togo, he's a local racer that wins most of the A races here in NorCal. He shits you not. He is both a faster racer than almost all others in our region, and a more experienced mechanic. 

I can't believe I've read this thread this far. It's like monkeys flinging poo. You are all making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Morgan


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