# Cannondale carbon from China?



## RD-Man (Jan 2, 2003)

Just curious... I have heard that Cannondale gets its carbon from the US, but I've also heard that it's from China or Taiwan. Does anyone know definitively where it's from? Also, does it really matter? Thanks.


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## alienator (Jun 11, 2004)

RD-Man said:


> Just curious... I have heard that Cannondale gets its carbon from the US, but I've also heard that it's from China or Taiwan. Does anyone know definitively where it's from? Also, does it really matter? Thanks.


No, it doesn't matter.


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## Matno (Jan 19, 2002)

RD-Man said:


> does it really matter?


Nope. It doesnt matter. Chinese carbon is Fantastic these days. For what it's worth, I heard that the all carbon bikes (synapse) are made in China, while the carbon- aluminum 6-13s are still u.s. born...


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

RD-Man said:


> Just curious... I have heard that Cannondale gets its carbon from the US, but I've also heard that it's from China or Taiwan. Does anyone know definitively where it's from? Also, does it really matter? Thanks.


The Synapse is made in China. From what I understand there was quite an internal struggle with the decision to do so. The new System 6 however will be made in the Cannondale factory as they spent a lot of time and money to be able to produce the bike themselves.I don't think it really doesn't where the Carbon is made that goes into the bikes. After all they stand behind (lifetime warranty) them and that's what really matters.

Fwiw I had a nice lunch time ride on the new System 6. Sweet bike, very stiff without being too harsh in the compliance department. I have a Six13 and the new bike is certainly different.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

I just picked up my new Synapse Carbon 2 last night. Frame and fork are both marked rather inconspicuously but definitely "Made In China"

(As opposed to, say, the very conspicuous "Made in Taiwan" that graces the front headtube of a Giant TCR Comp.)

Doesn't matter where it's made, just matters that it's made well & supported by a solid company with a reputation for standing behind their product. It is not the consumer's responsibility to ensure the financial solvency of domestic manufacturing industry in the absence of competitive quality.


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## stevecaz (Feb 25, 2005)

*Yes, it does matter! This is Why.*

I've written about this before, and I'll state it again.

It totally matters where the frame is made, unless of course you're hate your country. 
Cannondale has made EVERY FRAME since the day they opened their doors in the US, until the Synapse. They have a very long established track record of US manufacturing, with some of the best people and welders in the business, and being a home-grown American success story with American workers. Yes this is a global economy, and I have no issue with foreign made goods which I buy all the time, but when a total US company starts to outsource, it can be a slippery slope. First they make the Synapse, then if nobody complains and bikes sell, maybe they transfer the lower end frames to China, and then the slope begins. Its at even a greater risk now that they are owned by an investment company. Suddenly less and less Americans are working in the factory. By buying an American made frame, you are supporting the US ecomony by keeping an American worker in their job. I am very, very happy they made the effort to make the new System6 at their Bedford plant. Perhaps the raw carbon is from a foreign source, but that doesn't lay off the existing workforce at Cannondale. Perhaps it was because people like me sent them emails complaining when the Synapse came out. It really can work when we speak up. They should be proud of that US flag adorning the top tube of their frames. 

On the otherhand, Specialized has always had foreign made bikes. They make no pretense about it nor do they have the very pronounced "Made in the USA" label all over their marketing materials like Cannondale. So to me buying a Specialized would be fine. While its not supporting a US worker, its also not kicking one out of a job. 

The same situation is happening with Performance Bike clothing. Every clothing item I've ever bought from Performance since 1988 was made in the US. Then suddenly this year a couple items were foreign made and I found out they laid off all the workers at the NC company that made their stuff, and outsourced some of it overseas. The higher priced items I think are still US made - for now. Same situation as Cannondale, and from now on I will call ahead and make sure any clothing I buy is US made and by a US citizen as was the case at the NC plant. Oh, and the two clothing items I recently bought have seams starting to fall apart which I will be sending back. I will gladly pay a bit more for the US made stuff. 

There is more to what you buy than just the quality based on where it comes from.


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

stevecaz said:


> On the otherhand, Specialized has always had foreign made bikes. They make no pretense about it nor do they have the very pronounced "Made in the USA" label all over their marketing materials like Cannondale. So to me buying a Specialized would be fine. While its not supporting a US worker, its also not kicking one out of a job.



Fwiw Specialized did source several of it's older S-Works models to companies in the United States. I really wasn't into their road bikes at the time but several of the S-Works MTB's I owned were made in the States. Of course, now even the S Works models are sourced overseas.


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## Chase15.5 (Feb 17, 2005)

As the economy is influenced more and more by globalization, I think s big issue is fair trade. If the US has free and "unfettered" access to sell our goods to China, and they us, it will only strengthen our economy (think about access to sell to 1 billion or so Chinese citizens...). That [fair trade etc] IMO is the key. What would Fukuyama say? Increased transparancy of China's banking etc.... 

So, I don't think Canondale making a frame in China hurts the US. In the long run, it may help the US economy. I could be wrong, as I'm not an economist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn recently.:wink:


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## alienator (Jun 11, 2004)

stevecaz said:


> I've written about this before, and I'll state it again.
> 
> It totally matters where the frame is made, unless of course you're hate your country.
> Cannondale has made EVERY FRAME since the day they opened their doors in the US, until the Synapse. They have a very long established track record of US manufacturing, with some of the best people and welders in the business, and being a home-grown American success story with American workers. Yes this is a global economy, and I have no issue with foreign made goods which I buy all the time, but when a total US company starts to outsource, it can be a slippery slope. First they make the Synapse, then if nobody complains and bikes sell, maybe they transfer the lower end frames to China, and then the slope begins. Its at even a greater risk now that they are owned by an investment company. Suddenly less and less Americans are working in the factory. By buying an American made frame, you are supporting the US ecomony by keeping an American worker in their job. I am very, very happy they made the effort to make the new System6 at their Bedford plant. Perhaps the raw carbon is from a foreign source, but that doesn't lay off the existing workforce at Cannondale. Perhaps it was because people like me sent them emails complaining when the Synapse came out. It really can work when we speak up. They should be proud of that US flag adorning the top tube of their frames.


Thanks for the dramatic interlude, dad. It might matter to you, but there is nothing that says it has to matter to anyone else. Don't assume that your values should somehow transfer to someone else. As for the flag...well, it's just a freakin' flag.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Hate to break the news to you, but Cannondale really has one choice only - get on the CF bandwagon or go down the drain for a second (or is it third?) time. The consuming public wants CF frames, the sellers have to have a product in the marketplace. Most sellers do not have the capital available to re-tool to turn themselves into a full line producer of CF frames. It's not cheap - the tooling and R and D alone would crush most companies. The answer is simple - outsource.

Now Canny can continue to use the strength of their brand and retain some of their sales dollars here in the US or they can throw in the towel and get crushed by everyone else flocking to Taiwan's door. If they bend their principles a little bit, they remain in business and employ some Americans. If they stand by the Stars and Stripes and continue to push out fat-tubed aluminum frames when the public is asking for something different, well, they won't make it for long. The choice seems pretty obvious to me. Keep your oddball, glue together frames here and contract the manufacturing of the full CF frames somewhere else.

Don't blame them, blame your fellow cyclists.


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## alienator (Jun 11, 2004)

terry b said:


> Don't blame them, blame your fellow cyclists.


Hell, don't blame anyone: just buy something and ride.


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## Spintogrin (Sep 23, 2005)

Chase15.5 said:


> As the economy is influenced more and more by globalization, I think s big issue is fair trade. If the US has free and "unfettered" access to sell our goods to China, and they us, it will only strengthen our economy (think about access to sell to 1 billion or so Chinese citizens...). That [fair trade etc] IMO is the key. What would Fukuyama say? Increased transparancy of China's banking etc....
> 
> So, I don't think Canondale making a frame in China hurts the US. In the long run, it may help the US economy. I could be wrong, as I'm not an economist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn recently.:wink:


Free trade is only a good thing if it is a two way street. Years ago we shipped high tech, high end goods to China and they shipped happy meal toys and sneakers to the US. Today they ship EVERYTHING to us, Dells, 50"plasma TVs and $3000 bikes, while we ship them raw materials like rags unprocessed logs, waste cardboard etc. PBS had an interview with the head of our largest port on the west coast, I forget which port it was, but she stated that what I have said is the case. China imports things until they can copy it and or counterfeit it. They are notorious for not prosecuting patent and copy right infringements. This is not a simple case of free trade between two nations, one side is not exactly playing fair and we just keep filling our Wal-Mart’s with Chinese goods and they keep importing American green backs - To the Moon and beyond…or maybe a town near you !?


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## alienator (Jun 11, 2004)

Spintogrin said:


> Free trade is only a good thing if it is a two way street. Years ago we shipped high tech, high end goods to China and they shipped happy meal toys and sneakers to the US. Today they ship EVERYTHING to us, Dells, 50"plasma TVs and $3000 bikes, while we ship them raw materials like rags unprocessed logs, waste cardboard etc. PBS had an interview with the head of our largest port on the west coast, I forget which port it was, but she stated that what I have said is the case. China imports things until they can copy it and or counterfeit it. They are notorious for not prosecuting patent and copy right infringements. This is not a simple case of free trade between two nations, one side is not exactly playing fair and we just keep filling our Wal-Mart’s with Chinese goods and they keep importing American green backs - To the Moon and beyond…or maybe a town near you !?


Ok, everyone. We should all buy frames that don't necessarily work for us or appeal to us iffin those frames are made in the US of By God A. So please, step away from those attractive frames or those frames from the Far East that might fit you better 'cuz well, they ain't 'merican. America is all about fairness--why, don't y'all remember that tariff tailored to benefit Harley Davidson: that was all about fairness to our own interests. So please, be fair and patronize all your short sighted 'merican companies so the 'merican worker can have his own self-interests protected.


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## Spintogrin (Sep 23, 2005)

I'm not advocating that any one BUY AMERICAN. I'm the oldest and loudest critic of the American auto industry. I'm just trying to point out that there is the world and then there is China, two very different things and those that just look at china as another competitor, in my mind are missing a very very significant point. Outsourcing everything has its consequences, just be aware of them. 

Two good reads on globalization are: Friedman - The World Is Flat and T.R. Reid - The United States of Europe. To most people these are classified as Non-fiction to me they are horror stories.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

alienator said:


> Hell, don't blame anyone: just buy something and ride.


I'm blaming you....no, wait, you're riding a USA sand bike. Oh never mind.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Spintogrin said:


> I'm not advocating that any one BUY AMERICAN. I'm the oldest and loudest critic of the American auto industry. I'm just trying to point out that there is the world and then there is China, two very different things and those that just look at china as another competitor, in my mind are missing a very very significant point. Outsourcing everything has its consequences, just be aware of them.
> 
> Two good reads on globalization are: Friedman - The World Is Flat and T.R. Reid - The United States of Europe. To most people these are classified as Non-fiction to me they are horror stories.



Read an interesting tidbit the other day. Mainland China has had a positive balance of trade with the west for almost 2000 years. All the way back to the Silk Road. Europe (Rome, Persia, Greece) wanted Chinese silk, porcelin and gold. The west had little or nothing that the Chinese wanted, so the trade imbalance grew. Until China shut itself off from the world. 

Then, along came France and Britain and started the cycle again. Only this time, they forced China to import Opium to level the balance of trade. They had a war over it. Then the imperialists left, China again closed itself off and there was no balance problem until Nixon "re-opened" it. And here we are again.

Too bad the west can't conjure up something aside from Boeings and Airbusses that the Chinese want, eh?


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## Spintogrin (Sep 23, 2005)

The real problem is that now that China has the technology and an educated population, and a space program to go to the moon, I think that before we know it they will be making their own airliners – and ours. I’m not crying that the sky is falling but it sure isn’t ever going to be business as usual again.


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## Chase15.5 (Feb 17, 2005)

Spintogrin said:


> Free trade is only a good thing if it is a two way street. Years ago we shipped high tech, high end goods to China and they shipped happy meal toys and sneakers to the US. Today they ship EVERYTHING to us, Dells, 50"plasma TVs and $3000 bikes, while we ship them raw materials like rags unprocessed logs, waste cardboard etc. PBS had an interview with the head of our largest port on the west coast, I forget which port it was, but she stated that what I have said is the case. China imports things until they can copy it and or counterfeit it. They are notorious for not prosecuting patent and copy right infringements. This is not a simple case of free trade between two nations, one side is not exactly playing fair and we just keep filling our Wal-Mart’s with Chinese goods and they keep importing American green backs - To the Moon and beyond…or maybe a town near you !?


I think I said access to their market, transperancy in banking etc. as recommended many international economists like Fukuyama. If you read what international economists like Fukuyama say - they also mention the problems of patent infringement and other intellectual property rights. What I believe they are pointing out is that an isolationist approach will not be effective in fixing those problems. Of course this is just one persons take on what some experts are saying.


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## magicant (Apr 22, 2006)

Unless you're talking about whether a frame made in China is more liable to fail than a frame made elsewhere, how about taking this debate to PO? That's why it's there.

And just to add my two cents and spark some more debate to push it there.

Companies will do what will make them the most money. Consumers will do what gets them the product they want for the least money. If we want to stem the tide of jobs being outsourced, there are steps are government could take to make it more attractive for businesses to keep their jobs in the US. If the policy makers weren't in bed with the companies doing the outsourcing, that is.


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## tom_o (May 6, 2004)

The Synapse was made in China because Cannondale couldn't turn a profit after tooling up their US factories to crank out the carbon fiber like they wanted to.

So they had to outsource it.

Since then they've re-tooled their factories, and, going forward, will start to produce their carbon bikes in-house. Starting with the six13.


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## stevecaz (Feb 25, 2005)

*A major point of my opinion...*

One major point of my opinion was about companies that have a long history of manufacturing in the US. This is not about an isolationist approach. It is not good when these companies who have had employed the same people for 15, 20 years, then layoff everyone and send the job overseas just to lower the pricepoint. In some cases it might be necessary, but its still not good. A global economy does mean that some part of the product can be made in the US. The only thing actually made in the USA on a Cannondale bike would be the frame, decals, and paint. 

Cannondale has a very proud US history which is why I think they have a hard time justifying making things overseas. This still seems the case even though Joe Montgomery no longer owns the company, and good for them. My Kona was also handmade in the US by Tom Teesdale, of Japanese Tange tubing. My wife's first mountain bike was a Trek 850, yes a very low model, but the frame (in 1996) was made in the US. Those frame workers have long been fired. The bike companies have to compete with $120 Walmart bikes (which used to cost more five years ago) in the bread and butter low end market, so they find a way to sell their $300 bike for $269 to make it more attractive, but still keep it better than the Walmart bike. Walmart has penetrated our minds with a deflation ideal, where products should cost less and less over time. 

Nevertheless, Cannondale still has to earn the consumer and no, alientor, we don't buy frames that don't work just for the sake of buying American. It just happens that Cannondale has made some of the best bikes. But on my next purchase, they will again be put to the test to see if the bike still measures up to the competition. 

Alientor: "As for the flag...well, it's just a freakin' flag."
Are you from the peoples republic of Cambridge, MA? Clearly you hate America, believe there should be no defined country, the USA should be eliminated, and everyone should just come on over freely. By the way "cuz" and "merican" are not a words. Oh I see, you're trying to mix mexican with American. Now we really all know where your point of view lies, hence your user name. 

Terry B: You make an excellent point, and of course that type of scenerio happens often and is a better course of action to keep some jobs. Luckily, Cannondale seems to have found a way to make the System6 here. But then again if they can't sell them and need to lower the price point, you are correct in saying that it would be better to remain a healthy company and build overseas. As for the Synapse, well then to make your point, if someone decided between the Synapse and say, a Giant or Ridley, then buying the Synapse is still supporting the US company with all the local support, administrative, and design staff.


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## Insight Driver (Jan 27, 2006)

There are some strong emotional arguments in this thread. Only history will tell whether becoming a global village is the right thing. Point it, if our standard of living still remains high, then the economy is fine, even as we are becoming a global economy. To compete in this world you must understand that it's not working in metal and plastics that make a country great, it's the brains to innovate and make microprossesors and new ideas. 

(stepping off soapbox)
to OP:

Does it mattte? nope.

If you like the Synapse then realize that if it were made in Bedeford, it woud have cost a lot more.


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## alienator (Jun 11, 2004)

terry b said:


> I'm blaming you....no, wait, you're riding a USA sand bike. Oh never mind.


Yeah, but my tires, stem, current cranks, and chain are made in the Orient.....so it's ok to blame me. I have broad shoulders and active bowels so I can process blame quickly.:devil:


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## Dick Seacup (May 25, 2006)

terry b said:


> //snipped an interesting history lesson//
> 
> Too bad the west can't conjure up something aside from Boeings and Airbusses that the Chinese want, eh?


Oh, I'm sure the CIA will come up with some 'product' from their Latin American operations to export over there as soon as the opportunity presents itself.


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## Boardmill (Oct 15, 2005)

Does it matter where the carbon comes from in terms of quality? Yes and no. The easy answer is that what matters is the factory where it is built. To make the assumption that just because something is made in China, Taiwan, Thailand, etc. it is of lesser quality is nonsense. Again, all that matters is the factory, i.e. the experience, methods, materials and control over the process. 

There are great factories for composites all over Asia. If you toured some of these places you would be blown away. If that is not an option, if you understood the engineering, consistency, Q.C., and environmental standards these great factories run on you would be completely surprised. Many of these factories far exceed U.S. factories in terms of the ISO levels they run at. 

Of course there are also a bunch of poor composite producing factories around. Some of these factories are in Asia, some are here. 

As it relates to Cannondale, the Six13 was a relatively simple process that could be easily done in house (prepreg fabric and air bladder). However, the Synapse or the System Six are much more complicated and labor intensive. It is very UNlikely that Cannondale had/ has the employees in house to produce these two newer models reliably, at least at first. They could hire new guys, retool, etc. but given the competitive market and facilities already in place the decision was probably pretty easy to make.

Many people knock American auto production, but some of the most reliable vehicles available are made in the U.S., they just happen to be Toyotas or BMWs. One of Toyotas most popular cars (the Camry I think) is made with more American parts and labor then the Ford Mustang is. Did the American factory that put out all the Firestone tires causing Explorers to flip over produce a good product? Not in that case. Were/ are the VWs made in Germany better then the same car made in Mexico or Brazil? Yes and Yes. 

I have worked with carbon tubes and components for over 10 years. I have made my own stuff and sourced other stuff from a number of different factories around the world. The worst carbon tubes I have ever seen were made in Finland. I have seen some tubes almost as bad made in Italy and the U.S. The best tubes I see these days come out of Italy (different factory then the poor ones), Thailand, or the U.S. Maclean in Sandy Utah makes world class stuff in house. They are also starting to outsource some stuff to China and it looks really good so far.

I make my own carbon tubes and splice them into broken aluminum or titanium frames similar to how Seven makes their 'hybrid' frames. I do a great job, the bikes work great, and the product is very reliable, light, and consistent. This goes on in my garage. Does this mean that ALL carbon tubes made in U.S. garages are good? Hell no. My garage produces a good product because I happen to have the experience, methods, materials, and control over the process.

One thing most people don't realize is almost all the materials in carbon production is purchased by the factory where the frames are made, not by the company whose stickers are on the frame, components, etc. Since carbon is in high demand these days it makes a big difference. This is especially true when in comes to pre-impregnated fabrics, because prepreg is harder to screw up then hand wet out or resin transfer processes.

Whether foreign production is good for the U.S. economy and our future is another question entirely. Manufacturing is definitely an important aspect of any economy. IMO, the scary thing is the combination of manufacturing being lost and the quality of graduates the U.S. is putting out relative to other countries. There is no way that the U.S. is going to maintain its intellectual property and innovation advantage for much longer.


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## DeaconBlues (Jan 2, 2003)

Large trade imbalances can be harmfull to our economy, not trade itself.

As Chinese workers become more educated, they will demand higher pay for their work and soon manufacturers will look elsewhere for cheap labor. Remember when "everything" was made in Japan a few decades ago? Now it's China and very soon, Vietnam (we're seeing more VN made goods everyday). As Chinese workers become more educated, they will begin to demand more pay for their labor. This will serve to level the cost playing field somewhat and some production of goods will return to the U.S. 

Oh-oh, work is calling so I gotta go.

Deek


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## mattwebster77 (May 11, 2006)

Deek,

I'd like to agree with your comments that the people of China will demand more, but do you remember the "Tienanmen Square incident" ? You ask a Chinese college student about that incident and they will have no idea what you are talking about. Communists are really good at censorship and "deleting" history.


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## Cycle_Spice (Jun 28, 2006)

RD-Man said:


> Just curious... I have heard that Cannondale gets its carbon from the US, but I've also heard that it's from China or Taiwan. Does anyone know definitively where it's from? Also, does it really matter? Thanks.


The strength of Carbon Fibre is in the bond. It the glue not the mat that counts and the difference in the bond from smokin' hot to smokin' not is about $5. True.


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## Insight Driver (Jan 27, 2006)

stevecaz said:


> I've written about this before, and I'll state it again.
> 
> It totally matters where the frame is made, unless of course you're hate your country.
> Cannondale has made EVERY FRAME since the day they opened their doors in the US, until the Synapse. They have a very long established track record of US manufacturing, with some of the best people and welders in the business, and being a home-grown American success story with American workers. Yes this is a global economy, and I have no issue with foreign made goods which I buy all the time, but when a total US company starts to outsource, it can be a slippery slope. First they make the Synapse, then if nobody complains and bikes sell, maybe they transfer the lower end frames to China, and then the slope begins. Its at even a greater risk now that they are owned by an investment company. Suddenly less and less Americans are working in the factory. By buying an American made frame, you are supporting the US ecomony by keeping an American worker in their job. I am very, very happy they made the effort to make the new System6 at their Bedford plant. Perhaps the raw carbon is from a foreign source, but that doesn't lay off the existing workforce at Cannondale. Perhaps it was because people like me sent them emails complaining when the Synapse came out. It really can work when we speak up. They should be proud of that US flag adorning the top tube of their frames.
> ...


Here, folks, is a man who is an isolationist luddite.


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## johnny99 (Apr 2, 2004)

If I have a choice of buying similar products from either China or Taiwan, I will buy the Taiwan product every time. Working conditions and corporate ethics are generally much better in Taiwan.


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## ojingoh (Jul 13, 2006)

for me it comes down to two things:

*1) Do i as an american support democracy (China is not a democracy) and democratic ideas*. In America, we were fortunate when a factory job actually allowed the wage earner the ability to purchase their own house and accumulate wealth. The biggest difference in my mind between the industrialized world and the developing world is that in the industrial world you can own real estate and accumulate wealth. 
In China, sure you can get a job even at a better wage than what you were making at a farm, but in the end you can't own anything, cant afford anything like a factory and ultimately get nothing from working. Only connections to the local goverment assure you the ability to build or accumulate any wealth. Right now in China you are seeing a very wealthy class emerge, a very small land-owning middle class and a working class who will never own anything. How do you get to be an upper-class Chinese? Bribes or favortism. Buying a Chinese bike supports that structure. 

I don't think that this is unique to Chinese manufacture either, for sure there were examples of this behavior throughout history: the US had long periods of the exact same industrial structure. 

*2) how much stuff do I need, and does my life get any better when i own more stuff.* I'm buying a Moots, made in Colorado, made out of American ti. It's a serendipidous choice, I like ti bikes, I like handbuilt things and I like Colorado. I'm not stupid, of course I can buy an epoxy bike ('carbon fiber' sounds so much sexier lol) and get a better bang for the buck, but to be honest, all I'd do with that money I saved is buy more crap. I prefer to think that buying stuff that's built to last, works great and appeals to me aesthetically and ethically is more good overall than just 'i saved $400 on a bike frame.'


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## weather (Feb 6, 2004)

mattwebster77 said:


> Deek,
> 
> I'd like to agree with your comments that the people of China will demand more, but do you remember the "Tienanmen Square incident" ? You ask a Chinese college student about that incident and they will have no idea what you are talking about. Communists are really good at censorship and "deleting" history.



it only shows how ignorant YOU are about China. you ever tried that? by the way in Chinese the Tiananmen massacre is called 六四学运. try ask.


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## regan (Jun 17, 2004)

stevecaz said:


> By the way "cuz" and "merican" are not a words.


i always love it when people correct others' semantics and grammar with their own mistakes.


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## Niwot (Jul 16, 2004)

Interesting discussion.

There is nothing wrong with spending your money in a way that is consistent with your ethics. If that's what you want to do, if you want to avoid made-in-the-PRC bicycles and equipment, go for it. Spend your money at Moots or find a local builder like Holland Cycles or anyone else who builds here.

Agreed that a lot of this is being driven by carbon-mania. Of course carbon-mania is fueled by the cycling companies, who make a much higher profit margin when they can have carbon frames made for cheap in China, slap the decal of a famous European brand on the downtube, and sell the frame for $3000. These "name" companies had much smaller profit margins when their bikes were made by workers in the U.S. or Europe who earned decent wages. 

And now that they've created the carbon monster, everyone in the dam industry thinks they need carbon frames or carbocrap seatstays. Exhibit A is a longtime manufacturer of excellent hand-built steel frames, Brent Steelman, now hawking carbon frames and seatstays.


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## ojingoh (Jul 13, 2006)

Or Ibis. 
I emailed Ibis asking for their perspective. I'm interested to hear what they have to say, or any manufacturer really. I'm limited to what I can experience as a consumer. A manufacturer will have a different perspective for sure. 
A totally fascinating Harvard case study is brewing i can feel it! Anyone know of any?


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## Matno (Jan 19, 2002)

weather said:


> it only shows how ignorant YOU are about China. you ever tried that? by the way in Chinese the Tiananmen massacre is called 六四学运. try ask.


My parents just got back from teaching Chinese PhD students in Shanghai for a year. Among the hundreds of students they taught, about half had never heard of anything happening at Tiananmen square, and about half were vaguely aware of what went on there, but sketchy on the details. However, they did have a handful (4 or 5) who were actually in the area when the massacre took place, and they all said that the number of students killed was WAY off in the western media. According to those who were there, the actual number was much closer to 20,000 than 2,000. That number was corroborated by several other Chinese nationals they met who had been in Beijing at the time. I'm all for free trade (I won't buy stuff JUST because it's made in America - it has to be better or cheaper), but I have a really hard time supporting a government that would do something like that. I miss the good old days when carbon frames were made in Taiwan!

That said, the Communist Party in China is allowing a lot of "free" trade to open up right now because it's a HUGE cash cow for them and a means to reaching their goal of being THE world superpower. They're well on their way (thanks in large part to U.S. dollars). Unfortunately, politically, they haven't changed a whole lot...


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

Spintogrin said:


> The real problem is that now that China has the technology and an educated population, and a space program to go to the moon, I think that before we know it they will be making their own airliners – and ours. I’m not crying that the sky is falling but it sure isn’t ever going to be business as usual again.



So what..........should the U.S and Europe be the only major players in a global economy?? 

Oh and having an educated Chinese population is a problem according to you?? That's right........only U.S citizens have a right to university degrees. Those damn chinese..........if they learn to read and write they'll wake up and start questioning American economic imperialism.


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## ojingoh (Jul 13, 2006)

heh. i got a response from ibis. i wanna ask them (and them is a pretty cool group i might add) if it is cool to exerpt or reprint whole our conversation. VERY INTERESTING STUFF.

cheers

the O


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## ojf (Sep 14, 2005)

Hi:
I work for Delphi Electronics, which used to be a GM company. I have 23 years working for that former GM Company. I would like to take a buy-out, but they are not giving me one. I am not irreplaceable. I have to stay and help keep the equipment running with the replacement operators, “high school juniors" that have been hired to replace the " 50 year old workers". One 18-year-old high school Junior bought a $250.00 bike because his dad wouldn't give him a ride to work. He works 2nd shift and rides home at 11:00 pm. No helmet, no headlight, and no taillight. This is one smart kid! This is one of the kids of our future. A direct quote from him, "I ride smart, the car drivers have to watch out for me". His uncle, "WHO WAS", a Delphi engineer, referred him to be hired. These are some of the young kids out there. 
GM and Delphi both are giving me the shaft. You can buy stuff from who ever you want. We do live with an international economy. GM and Delphi took money out of our United States environment and financed plants in Mexico, smaller Asia countries, and now China. But they tell the bankruptcy court that, "That money is different. That doesn’t affect the US workers here. The retirement laws here say it is okay. Look up what the federal bankruptcy judge “Robert Drain” has to say about that". The US laws seem to be in their favor. I myself will always have a hard time buying a new American anything vehicle. I want a new truck and but will be looking at the new Honda trucks. 
When I needed a new road bike. The first thing I did is to look for the “Made in USA” label. I bought a Cannondale bike. It is great! It has disc brakes. Some people have problems with that. I don’t care. It was handmade in the USA. Now their Synapse is made where? In China? I want to replace my 20-year-old Raleigh mountain bike with a Cannondale Bad Boy Disc bike. Made in the USA guy’s. Anybody have a problem with that guy’s? Oh yeah I forgot the Raleigh had the, “Designed in the USA”, label on it. That was from 24 years ago


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## Sao (Jul 31, 2003)

Hey, I'm hanging on to my lugged, steel 1982 Trek "Made in Wisconsin" frame - truly made there. It's from another time. 

But I would suggest a Toyota truck over the Honda.


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