# New wide 23mm Kinlin build



## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

There is a lot of discussion about the new rims from Boyd and Bike Hub Store. Here is a set built by Ron Ruff for me recently.

I particularly like how they came out with the no logos and are built to Alchemy hubs 20/24 with CX Rays. They are extremely stiff even at my weight of 175lbs. I have them set up with 25mm wide tires which is a first for me and I really like the way they ride. This is going to be a popular rim but I think with any other hub I'd do 28h on the rear.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

23x28?
How is the rim finish?


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Yes, 23x28. Rim finish is good but not as nice as HED since there is a seam. I originally wanted the HED C2 but they were not available at the time. I like the fact that they are taller than the HEDs and they do have a very nice rounded leading edge. I've been in some heavy cross winds already and rode with a 215lb buddy on Reynolds 66mm wheels. He was getting tossed around and I was in total control.


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## jjcools (Jun 28, 2011)

Does Alchemy not make a 28? Just curious, I am looking for some wheels and weigh 170. I want them to be light but still reliable, not a racer.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Yes they do make a 28.


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## xtekian (May 17, 2012)

Looks nice! I'm looking for more or less this exact build, +/- different hubs. May I ask how long it took for you to receive the wheels, and the pricing (more or less expensive than the Boyds)?


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

xtekian said:


> Looks nice! I'm looking for more or less this exact build, +/- different hubs. May I ask how long it took for you to receive the wheels, and the pricing (more or less expensive than the Boyds)?


The hubs will have a huge factor in the wheelset price. Alchemy hubs have a very good design, but they cost more than the hubs that come standard on most wheels. The hub choice can change the wheelset cost by hundreds of dollars.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Agree. Pretty much the difference in price is mostly in the hub selection. Alchemy hubs are probably 350 more than the Taiwanese hubs. I realize this is a lot but they are probably the equivalent stiffness of 24/28 of other hub designs or better plus I know who built the wheels so that worth a slight premium to me too.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I didn't know they came out with a 23 wide rim.

I have essentially the same wheels except with xr270's. They should serve you well. I put mine on 11,000 miles ago and that's the last time I thought about wheels. Perform great and really ultra dependable....and I ride hard on some pretty bad roads. Im about 20 pound lighter than you but I'd imagine you'll have great luck with them too.


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## tazdag (Apr 9, 2002)

I've been talking with Ron about the exact same set of wheels. Did you get the KCNC skewers that he uses? If so, what do you think of them?
I know the 25C tires make a lot of sense, I just can't get used to how big they look.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Great choice Mimason, light, durable, and they look good on the TCR!


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

tazdag said:


> I've been talking with Ron about the exact same set of wheels. Did you get the KCNC skewers that he uses? If so, what do you think of them?
> I know the 25C tires make a lot of sense, I just can't get used to how big they look.


Ron builds a nice wheel. You will be very pleased. 
No I did not get the KCNCs from him. They are a good price but I've decided to use a more robust skewer going forward than the light weights. I have a set of KCNC and Far and Near. I like the Far and Near better. The KCNC lasted about 18 months and started to develop creaks. I think I need to resurface the brass face and slightly lube but it got me thinking about safety to the point where I decided to get a stronger set albeit heavier. I am using some Zipps now with a titanium axel. They are sig ificantly thicker and have a nice secure mechanism. Ultimately I'm ok with a few extra oz for this set of wheels. 

This is my first experience with 25s. I don't think they look bad at all with the wide rims. In fact no ones really notices until I tell them. I have another 25 for the rear ready to go but after that I am going to try 23s and then decide what I will ultimately use from there.


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## roadscrape (Apr 22, 2008)

Thanks so much for showing off your new wheels, Mimason. Until now, the only other photos I've seen of the KinLin XC-279 23mm wide rim were Boyds and Mercury. Boyds wheels seem like a great value at $550 and he has a good reputation in the SC/NC/GA racing circles (admittedly I prefer removable decals like your wheels versus Boyds laser etch). Mercury charges $700 for same wheel with White Ind. H3 hubs. 

Ditto on QRs - got some American Classics at a good price.

I was considering H Plus Son Alchemy (available July 8 from QBP for wheel builders) but have more confidence in Kinlin (I have XR300 rims on my wheels) and their reputation with wheel builders like Ron Ruff, Zen and a number of other builders.


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## Uncle Jam's Army (Aug 1, 2006)

Are the Kinlin XC-270 rims available separate as rims only now?


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## RAFIUDEEN (Apr 6, 2012)

where does one get trims which r 28 deep and 23 wide from kinlin


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

RAFIUDEEN said:


> where does one get trims which r 28 deep and 23 wide from kinlin


is this them?

http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/162.htm


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## RAFIUDEEN (Apr 6, 2012)

@mrcreosote needed 20 and 24 holes


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

RAFIUDEEN said:


> @mrcreosote needed 20 and 24 holes


according to the page, they come in 20, 24, 28 and 32, with more stock arriving next week.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

mimason said:


> Alchemy hubs are probably 350 more than the Taiwanese hubs.


Very nice looking bike, mimason!

The *wholesale* price difference would be nearly $350 compared to most Taiwan hubs... ~$475 retail. 

These rims are pretty stiff as you'd expect just from the profile. You don't *need* a lot of spokes... but then I think the old Alpha 340 rim is fine with 24 on the rear and I weigh 170.

Just based on the shape, and my semi-educated guess, I'd wager these are the most aero aluminum rims you can get. 

The rounded shape and light weight means that you will see a little dimpling of the sidewalls near the spoke holes, but not bad.

Note that a 23mm tire will be ~25mm wide on this rim. 

Brandon at BHS is the only one I know of that is currently selling just the rims.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

Are these the rims ... BHS C472W ? Are they Kinlin as well just labelled as BHS? 23mm wide and 28mm depth.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> Are these the rims ... BHS C472W ? Are they Kinlin as well just labelled as BHS? 23mm wide and 28mm depth.


yes..


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## vuong05 (Aug 23, 2010)

mimason said:


> There is a lot of discussion about the new rims from Boyd and Bike Hub Store. Here is a set built by Ron Ruff for me recently.
> 
> I particularly like how they came out with the no logos and are built to Alchemy hubs 20/24 with CX Rays. They are extremely stiff even at my weight of 175lbs. I have them set up with 25mm wide tires which is a first for me and I really like the way they ride. This is going to be a popular rim but I think with any other hub I'd do 28h on the rear.


Any further updates now that you have put some more miles on the wheelset? I weigh exactly as you do but must say I don't stress wheelsets as I'm not a big power sprinter or strong climber. Just looking for an all around wheelset that can can do it all. Sorry if I missed the weight of these wheels, but can you post it again?

I'm essentially looking for the exact same setup and would like some more information on your wheelset. You can PM me if that's easier for you.

Thanks.


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## xtekian (May 17, 2012)

vuong05 said:


> Any further updates now that you have put some more miles on the wheelset? I weigh exactly as you do but must say I don't stress wheelsets as I'm not a big power sprinter or strong climber. Just looking for an all around wheelset that can can do it all. Sorry if I missed the weight of these wheels, but can you post it again?
> 
> I'm essentially looking for the exact same setup and would like some more information on your wheelset. You can PM me if that's easier for you.
> 
> Thanks.


I ended up going the BikeHubStore route and got the BHS C472W rims along with BikeHubStore hubs and Sapim Laser spokes, 20 front 28 rear (I'm 135lbs). Total weight of the wheelset was 1524 grams, paired with some light skewers and Conti GP 4000S 25mm tires the whole system weighs 2287 grams. Not bad for wheels that cost $385 total ($475 for the whole system)!

So how do they feel? Ok to be honest there isn't a big difference in acceleration compared to my old set (Ksyrium Equipes), and it hasn't affected my average speed, but the comfort of my new wheels is night and day! I have a CAAD9 and I have to say at 90psi they have never felt so comfortable before -- my CAAD now feels essentially as smooth as my steel single speed, except much much faster  cornering also feels a lot better, but I'm not the one to take chances


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## vuong05 (Aug 23, 2010)

xtekian: how would you say the BHS hubs compare to the other hubs like the alchemy, tune, Chris King r45, etc...?

For me, durability is key and I don't know much about the BHS hubs other than what is listed on their site. Can you or anyone else with first hand experience comment on them in terms of the ride and durability?

Thanks.


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## xtekian (May 17, 2012)

vuong05 said:


> xtekian: how would you say the BHS hubs compare to the other hubs like the alchemy, tune, Chris King r45, etc...?
> 
> For me, durability is key and I don't know much about the BHS hubs other than what is listed on their site. Can you or anyone else with first hand experience comment on them in terms of the ride and durability?
> 
> Thanks.


Can't really comment since I recently got the wheelset and I've never ridden other name-brand hubs (just Ksyriums), this is my first foray into "custom" wheels. That being said, it's held up well so far and it's pretty quiet as well (quieter than the Ksyriums)


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

QUOTE=vuong05;4032330]Any further updates now that you have put some more miles on the wheelset? I weigh exactly as you do but must say I don't stress wheelsets as I'm not a big power sprinter or strong climber. Just looking for an all around wheelset that can can do it all. Sorry if I missed the weight of these wheels, but can you post it again?

I'm essentially looking for the exact same setup and would like some more information on your wheelset. You can PM me if that's easier for you.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I have close to 1000 miles on them already and they are holding up very well. I recently took them on a trip to GA and climbed and bombed down Brasstown Bald, Unicoi and Hogpen 3 week ago. The ride is completely different from my Shimano tubulars. I would call them smooth and predictable and strong. Compared to the Shimanos they are slower responding but I think this is understood when comparing to the responsiveness of light tubulars. 

BTW I did not weigh them but they are supposed to be around 1450g if you add up the components.

From my original setup I had to make a change to 23mm in back to eliminate frame rub due to frame nonrelated to flex but rather frame/wheel/tire compatability. I am using a 25mm still in the front and will migrate to 23mm when I go through my remaining supply of 25s. I did like the wider tires though and being able to ride a lower pressure.


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## victorscp (Nov 8, 2011)

i want to do this build with 20/24 rims but worried about my weight since i roll around at 215


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## vuong05 (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks for the update mimason.

Sounds like I know exactly what my next wheelset should be. This will be going on a CAAD10 and should help dampen the ride a little.

Are you able to share with us the total cost for this exact setup? If you like, you can PM me.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

A couple of spokes more will not hurt ... I weigh 165lbs and laced my XR19W, 20mm wide, 24/28 using the SL hubs available from BHS.

I am not able to tell the difference between those hubs and my Hope Pro 2 hubs (UK). The engagement on my BHS hubs are better than the Hope on my MTB.


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## RAFIUDEEN (Apr 6, 2012)

victorscp said:


> i want to do this build with 20/24 rims but worried about my weight since i roll around at 215


u got to run it on 24 and 28 spokes atleast


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## Winters (Dec 4, 2011)

RAFIUDEEN said:


> u got to run it on 24 and 28 spokes atleast


.
Ditto to that 
.
.... One of my 210lbs+ friends tried 20/24 this year and he is constantly replacing spokes. 
Not on the Kinlin rims but another major brand.
...
I'm 200lb and have stayed with 32/32 for many years... Never had a spoke break or a rim issue. Using 105, Ultegra, and Dura Ace hubs.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Doh! Duplicate.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

victorscp said:


> i want to do this build with 20/24 rims but worried about my weight since i roll around at 215


Definitely go with 28r... and if you are using BHS hubs use heavier spokes on the DS.

And that is assuming you are not too hard on wheels.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

mimason said:


> The KCNC lasted about 18 months and started to develop creaks. I think I need to resurface the brass face and slightly lube but it got me thinking about safety to the point where I decided to get a stronger set albeit heavier. I am using some Zipps now with a titanium axel. They are sig ificantly thicker and have a nice secure mechanism. Ultimately I'm ok with a few extra oz for this set of wheels.


Are you using the new Zipp aero skewers? I was thinking about carrying those. I have the steel ones on my TT bike and they are nicer to use... especially the nut feels much better on the fingers. 

Now that I look at your pictures, I'm thinking they are the old style Zipps. 

The KCNCs seem to last fine. I have ~20k miles on a set. They do need to be lubed every once in awhile though.


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## victorscp (Nov 8, 2011)

rruff said:


> Definitely go with 28r... and if you are using BHS hubs use heavier spokes on the DS.
> 
> And that is assuming you are not too hard on wheels.


they offer a 16 ds/8 nds hub drilling would that help with strength?

thanks for the advice guys!!:thumbsup:


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

victorscp said:


> they offer a 16 ds/8 nds hub drilling would that help with strength?
> 
> thanks for the advice guys!!:thumbsup:


Those rims are not center drilled, so the 16/8 hub will not work well


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

They sure look center-drilled... unless something changed recently. 

But I don't think triplet is going to be the best solution because the hub isn't designed with a high NDS offset specifically for triplet. Much better off with 28 spokes with heavier ones on the DS.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

rruff said:


> They sure look center-drilled... unless something changed recently.
> 
> But I don't think triplet is going to be the best solution because the hub isn't designed with a high NDS offset specifically for triplet. Much better off with 28 spokes with heavier ones on the DS.


The rims I have used so far have the holes in the center, but they are drilled at angles for better spoke lines. So if two consecutive holes in the rim have spokes coming from the drive side of the hub, one of them would go in the hole that is pointed to the non-drive side. This is unlike XR-270 and XR-300 rims that have the holes drilled straight.

Below is a photo with the valve hole in the center. It is a little hard to see in this picture.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I have one that shows no discernible difference and the other rim has a slight offset... +-~0.5mm, alternating. The hole in the tire bed is pretty much centered though and and when I insert a spoke and nipple in a hole, I can't tell that it favors one side over the other. I think the tiny offset is just a manufacturing tolerance thing. It certainly doesn't resemble any offset drilled rim I'm aware of.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

BHS might be able to clarify here ...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I checked the rim where I measured ~+-0.5mm offset in the spoke hole location. I took a long spoke that I use for measuring ERD with a Wheelsmith aluminum nipple, stuck it in the rim and measured how far the other end of the spoke would easily deflect from the centerline without applying force... ie giving the free range of the nipple in the rim. Checked 6 adjacent spoke holes and took an average of the deflections for 1, 3 and 5 and compared that to 2, 4, and 6. Then I took a Hed C2 which is obviously offset drilled and measured it. This isn't super precise, but it doesn't need to be. 

Kinlin 50mm vs 52mm (not enough difference to be significant)
Hed 87mm vs 37mm 

I don't know why the Kinlin holes are not perfectly in the center, but there doesn't appear to be any real angle or bias to them that would effect how they should be built.


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

The rims have a seam (versus being welded and machined smooth)? Can you feel the seam "thump" when braking, or is it smooth?


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

Wines of WA said:


> The rims have a seam (versus being welded and machined smooth)? Can you feel the seam "thump" when braking, or is it smooth?


I have only put about 100 miles on a front wheel with that rim so far, and I have not felt any brake pulsing.


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## tsunayoshi (Dec 3, 2009)

I got a set of the newest November FSW-23 wheels, which use the XC-279 laced to Novatec hubs. 28/24, 2x rear/radial front. These are an upgrade (for me) from their original FSW which was based on the XC-270 rim w/ 24/24 2x front/rear. I put over 3K miles on the XC-270 set. Nothing wrong with the old set, I just wanted the wider rims since I have an A23 wheelset on my cx bike that I like.

I love the new wheels, I put on 25mm tires @ 90psi and the ride was noticeably different than the 270 set w/ the same tires @100psi. The rear is much stiffer, cornering feel was also different (in a good way). I will be racing on them the next 2 weekends so we'll see how they handle at that level of riding.


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## boomersooner69 (Sep 3, 2009)

tsunayoshi said:


> I got a set of the newest November FSW-23 wheels, which use the XC-279 laced to Novatec hubs. 28/24, 2x rear/radial front. These are an upgrade (for me) from their original FSW which was based on the XC-270 rim w/ 24/24 2x front/rear. I put over 3K miles on the XC-270 set. Nothing wrong with the old set, I just wanted the wider rims since I have an A23 wheelset on my cx bike that I like.
> 
> I love the new wheels, I put on 25mm tires @ 90psi and the ride was noticeably different than the 270 set w/ the same tires @100psi. The rear is much stiffer, cornering feel was also different (in a good way). I will be racing on them the next 2 weekends so we'll see how they handle at that level of riding.


Do you have any pics of the wheels on your bike? I'm seriously considering the FSW23's


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## tsunayoshi (Dec 3, 2009)

*November FSW23 photo*

View attachment 281114

Best one I have...I'm not in the habit of taking pictures of the bike 

The red skewers/hubs turned out looking a lot better on the bike than I expected, but they still have black hub options AFAIK.

Also, this is my 4th November wheelset, all are holding up more than fine: 1st gen FSW, FSWCX (cx race wheels), FSW23 (w/ A23s, pit wheels for my cx bike and for gravel grinders), and the current gen FSW23 w/ the new Kinlins. All have the same Novatec hubs and I have never had an issue, even with 3K miles and no maintenance on the 1st gen FSW.


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