# Is this a joke?



## Wesquire

Wait all year for the one race with decent TV coverage in the US and they DQ the most interesting rider of the event over a routine sprinting accident. Unacceptable.


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## MMsRepBike

They're charging people 15,000 euro to make vlogs from the event too.

Limited coverage of limited riders.

No thanks, I'll go ride my bike instead. Maybe watch a highlight every few days or so. ASO can pound sand.


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## bikerjulio

That was a


> a routine sprinting accident


 like Vettel on Hamilton was a routine racing accident.


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## Wesquire

bikerjulio said:


> That was a like Vettel on Hamilton was a routine racing accident.


Cav had more room to move over, and he was behind Sagan. It wasn't solely Sagan's fault.


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## OldZaskar

Such bullshit - Cav was into Sagan WAY before the elbow came out. Look at helicopter view - right before they are obscured by the trees... Cav was already into Sagan. This look like yet another Cav-caused-crash. Cav was trying to sneak by in a gap that was already closing. There was chaos to Sagan's left - he was moving away from that.


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## spdntrxi

yeah I don't agree with the disqual... the bigger elbow flick is after the fact. The "nudge" was a normal get off me..especially when Cav was leaning his head already.


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## Handbrake

OldZaskar said:


> Such bullshit - Cav was into Sagan WAY before the elbow came out.


It looks like that is the case because Sagan wasn't holding his line, and he was well away from the goings on to his left

In any case it looks like they put the penalty on him due to the elbow, which he most certainly threw.


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## JasonB176

They should have just left it at a time and point penalty - even that I don't really agree with - but to disqualify him...?!


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## 9W9W

I have disliked Cavendish for quite a few years now. In addition to being a whiny female dog he is also a reckless has been who will do anything to prove himself to/with the currently relevant riders. 

He should ride out the rest of his contract on rollers. Dunce.


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## tommybike

MMsRepBike said:


> They're charging people 15,000 euro to make vlogs from the event too.
> 
> Limited coverage of limited riders.
> 
> No thanks, I'll go ride my bike instead. Maybe watch a highlight every few days or so. ASO can pound sand.


This. I am so glad I did not have time to watch and did not pay yet. Now no chance I will. BS decision. 

It was as much Cav or Demarre fault as Sagan. 

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## gofast2wheeler

That's bull! Cav was trying to make an opening and Sagan was defending his turf. A little excessive throwing elbow but a lot is at stake and emotions take over. Let Cav by and possibly not win or block cubicle Cav was trying to squeeze through. Pour judgment on both riders but disqualify Sagan, the only real attraction worth watching cycling for?


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## BTSyndrome

I'm a random nobody, but the very first thing I was taught when introduced to cycling a decade ago..... "You are responsible for protecting your front wheel at all times, and to not put yourself into a position you can't get out of!!"

When crash yourself out stupidity isn't enough... why not inflict your usual poor decision making on others (when you don't have the legs) so they can get punished.

At least now I don't have to waste my free time watching the rest of the tour. A single paragraph saying who wins will suffice.


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## AlanE

I agree that Cav was as much at fault as Sagan. Take a close look at the photo. Notice how close together their tires are. Inches. Sagan has the right to defend his position, and Cav was trying to force himself thru where the wasn't enough space.


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## tommybike

Listening to the commentary there is not one commentator who even thought this was a possibility. Look at the comments from other riders. This is bizarre. 

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## jacksdad

is there no video of what actually happened between Sagan and Cavendish when they disappeared under the trees? I'm a Sagan fan but what CAN be seen appears overly agressive by Sagan.


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## Marc

tommybike said:


> Listening to the commentary there is not one commentator who even thought this was a possibility. Look at the comments from other riders. This is bizarre.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Yea...because commentators were trying to dodge the issue of penalties before it was a thing. It is the same thing with interviewers not telling Kellyanne Conway she's a whacko-they're looking out for the jobs by not pissing off one or the other demographic watching.

You have only to look at threads on forums to see why. Half the internet is certain Sagan is at fault, the other half is certain Cav was at fault-and both think those that think otherwise are crazy.



I'll admit watching it live...I figured Sagan would get dinged with a fine, or relegated for this... I figured they'd let him skate on DQ, because well, he is (well was) going to be the green jersey winner almost inevitably in 3 weeks.


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## tommybike

Marc said:


> Yea...because commentators were trying to dodge the issue of penalties before it was a thing. It is the same thing with interviewers not telling Kellyanne Conway she's a whacko-they're looking out for the jobs by not pissing off one or the other demographic watching.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have only to look at threads on forums to see why. Half the internet is certain Sagan is at fault, the other half is certain Cav was at fault-and both think those that think otherwise are crazy.


Not one commentator raised the possibility of a penalty before the ridiculous Dimension Data people came on. 

Not one rider, current or former has agreed with the decision. 

You can say that either was at fault. Probably a little of both. 

But a DQ is absolutely ridiculous. 

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## Notvintage

No joke, Sagan clearly threw his right elbow out causing a dangerous chain of crashes. The second I saw the footage I said "throw his cheating ass out."


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## Notvintage

Wesquire said:


> Cav had more room to move over, and he was behind Sagan. It wasn't solely Sagan's fault.


Bull*****. Sagan is getting a rep for throwing elbows. I don't even like Cavendish, but you can't throw elbows out which Sagan clearly did.


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## pedalbiker

9W9W said:


> I have disliked Cavendish for quite a few years now. In addition to being a whiny female dog he is also a reckless has been who will do anything to prove himself to/with the currently relevant riders.
> 
> He should ride out the rest of his contract on rollers. Dunce.


Four stage wins last year show you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Second most stages in TdF history. 

Get a clue.


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## pedalbiker

Notvintage said:


> Bull*****. Sagan is getting a rep for throwing elbows. I don't even like Cavendish, but you can't throw elbows out which Sagan clearly did.


Exactly. Numerous sprinters have said just that, including Greipel.



> “I asked André. He was quite pissed by the attitude of Sagan, making some moves which he shouldn’t make. Yesterday it was the same thing in the intermediate sprint, he gave an elbow to André and he was a little bit pissed yesterday already. Twice in a row is too much. Greipel was saying, ‘He isn’t my friend anymore from now on.’ That was 20 metres past the finish line.”


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## tommybike

pedalbiker said:


> Exactly. Numerous sprinters have said just that, including Greipel.


Then Greipel watched the video and apologized to Sagan. 

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## Wood Devil

Notvintage said:


> No joke, Sagan clearly threw his right elbow out causing a dangerous chain of crashes. The second I saw the footage I said "throw his cheating ass out."


The way I see it is that Cavendish was just being Cavendish, being aggressive and putting himself in a situation that was going to cause a crash. He panicked when he got too close to the wall and started to lean into Sagan. Sagan looked to have gotten a little off balance because of Cavendish being an idiot, and the elbow came out not only to shove off Cavendish, but also as a check of balance.

Cavendish was at fault. 

Very disappointed the idiots in charge of the TdF kicked Sagan out for that. So much so that I probably won't be paying much attention to the race from this point out.


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## Notvintage

Marc said:


> I'll admit watching it live...I figured Sagan would get dinged with a fine, or relegated for this...


Here's the thing, the Tour referees spoke to the sprinters and said they would be very closely watching the sprint finishes for shenanigans and taking a hard line on offenders. Sagan screwed up at the wrong race.


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## KoroninK

Wait, so now that Sagan is out for a DQ it's ok to not be interested in watching the Tour anymore. Yet some of you were getting on me (and thus other fans of Alejandro) for being done with the Tour after he crashed out of the TT with a serious injury.


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## coldash

Sagan implicated in crash at 1.5Km to go. Tried to get thru a gap between two FdJ guys and brought one of them down which caused the peloton pile up.


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## ddave12000

Notvintage said:


> Bull*****. Sagan is getting a rep for throwing elbows. I don't even like Cavendish, but you can't throw elbows out which Sagan clearly did.


That may be true, and yet in this case, you can clearly see from the front on video footage, that the elbow came out after Cav is already going down. Looking at Sagan's left leg, I think it is clear the elbow is the result of keeping his balance after being nudged in the hip by Cav. 

I'm not sure Sagan doesn't have some responsibility here, but I don't understand the DQ.


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## aclinjury

KoroninK said:


> Wait, so now that Sagan is out for a DQ it's ok to not be interested in watching the Tour anymore. Yet some of you were getting on me (and thus other fans of Alejandro) for being done with the Tour after he crashed out of the TT with a serious injury.


he he he you got them back amigo


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## aclinjury

here's is one person's analysis on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ-dvVH811k#t=75.721

watching the above video, it's clear that Cav was the instigator by first putting his head into Sagan's body. In other words, Cav was encroaching into Sagan's space; their tires were too close to each other so something had to give. Sagan reacted by throwing his elbow out to fend off Cav and to also balance himself, which made it look like Sagan threw the elbow to cause the fall, but IMO the elbow was just a reaction to Cav's head.

Anyway, this should have been a racing incident that maybe worth some point deduction. But to DQ a star on a controversial call is ridiculous. 

But before we're quick to jump on Sagan, let's get one thing straight here, Cav isn't a saint either, he has done this to many others in his career.


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## Handbrake

ddave12000 said:


> That may be true, and yet in this case, you can clearly see from the front on video footage, that the elbow came out after Cav is already going down.


It is out here, and if Cav is in the process of crashing he is able to do so while making up enough ground to ride into the elbow.

Sagan had just been passed by Démare and was trying to close down that inside line. The elbow looked like a last resort once he knew someone else was passing him in there.


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## Handbrake

And "here" is:


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## aclinjury

Handbrake said:


> It is out here, and if Cav is in the process of crashing he is able to do so while making up enough ground to ride into the elbow.
> 
> Sagan had just been passed by Démare and was trying to close down that inside line. The elbow looked like a last resort once he knew someone else was passing him in there.


Dude watch the above video, Cav's head ran into Sagan's body first, then Sagan's elbow come out second. Chain of event, matters.


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## Handbrake

aclinjury said:


> Dude watch the above video, Cav's head ran into Sagan's body first, then Sagan's elbow come out second. Chain of event, matters.


Dude, I did. Dude, Sagan rode into Cav's line. Dude, the elbow was intended to prevent Cav from passing. Dude, riders can defend their space (see Cav using his head) but they can't elbow other riders into the barriers. Dude.


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## tommybike

Handbrake said:


> Dude, I did. Dude, Sagan rode into Cav's line. Dude, the elbow was intended to prevent Cav from passing. Dude, riders can defend their space (see Cav using his head) but they can't elbow other riders into the barriers. Dude.


Did you watch it? He did not elbow him. Cav ran into Sagan as the entire group drifted right. The only people that can't see that are Dimension Dummies and the TdF jury. 

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## spdntrxi

Handbrake said:


> And "here" is:


elbow in thin air.. hitting nothing is what I see


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## Handbrake

tommybike said:


> Did you watch it? He did not elbow him. Cav ran into Sagan as the entire group drifted right. The only people that can't see that are Dimension Dummies and the TdF jury.


Yes I watched it. There was no one next to Sagan pushing him right, he rode that way on his own to close down the inside line so he wouldn't be passed again.



spdntrxi said:


> elbow in thin air.. hitting nothing is what I see


Thank you for reinforcing my point. That you did so unwittingly is frosts the discussion nicely.


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## aclinjury

here's a pic BEFORE Sagan's elbow comes out









Notice that at this point, Sagan's body is inline with Demare (the FDJ rider in front) and that Sagan is not leaning his body. The only person that is leaning is Cav, and Cav is leaning his head into Sagan's body. Cav is behind Sagan. Then shortly after this, Sagan's elbow come flying out, and that to me is racing.

Furthermore, Cav still has well over a foot of space to his right, so clearly Cav could have moved to his right if he wanted to avoid leaning into Sagan. But, moving to his right is not how Cav operates. I trust that everyone in here knows that Cav's modus operandi is to lean into other and fight for position at all cost, and he has done this throughout his career to great success. It's just that this is a rare few time that he got a taste of his own medicine.


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## spdntrxi

Handbrake said:


> Yes I watched it. There was no one next to Sagan pushing him right, he rode that way on his own to close down the inside line so he wouldn't be passed again.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for reinforcing my point. That you did so unwittingly is frosts the discussion nicely.


whats your point again?... I know I have never said that Sagan didn't have an elbow out...just that it was nothing and not what caused the crash.


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## aclinjury

and of course a split second later, Sagan's elbow comes flying out, but also notice that Cav is still leaning into Sagan as Sagan's elbow starts to come out


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## Handbrake

aclinjury said:


> Furthermore, Cav still has well over a foot of space to his right


No he doesn't, the red walkway barriers extend out from the white road barriers. Though that is irrelevant because Cav's line is Cav's and the slower Sagan shouldn't have ridden into it.

Sagan was in line with Démare only temporarily because Démare was going hard left, having just sprinted past Sagan via the same line Cav using to do same. Sagan was closing the lane to prevent that and, per his own words, he didn't know Cav was there until he closed into him and reacted by elbowing him into the barriers.


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## aclinjury

Handbrake said:


> Yes I watched it. *There was no one next to Sagan pushing him right, he rode that way on his own to close down the inside line so he wouldn't be passed again.*
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for reinforcing my point. That you did so unwittingly is frosts the discussion nicely.


Seriously, that's your analysis? I'm sorry, but Sagan was riding that way because he was following someone's wheel, that's racing, right? Or do you expect Sagan to sit up and *politely move aside* and let Cav and et al go by and around him?


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## aclinjury

Handbrake said:


> No he doesn't, the red walkway barriers extend out from the white road barriers. Though that is irrelevant because Cav's line is Cav's and the slower Sagan shouldn't have ridden into it.
> 
> Sagan was in line with Démare only temporarily because Démare was going hard left, having just sprinted past Sagan via the same line Cav using to do same. Sagan was closing the lane to prevent that and, per his own words, he didn't know Cav was there until he closed into him and reacted by elbowing him into the barriers.


Ususally, it's the guy who's coming from behind (and approaching the guy in front of him) who will be doing the leaning. Cav was coming from behind and leant into Sagan. Should Sagan have been more polite and sit up and let Cav thru? Ridiculous to think so. Guys at this level are paid to win, almost at all cost. Cav knows the deal. He went, he gambled, and he failed, this time. In past, he has gotten away with more than his lion's share of faults.


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## Handbrake

aclinjury said:


> Seriously, that's your analysis? I'm sorry, but Sagan was riding that way because he was following someone's wheel


Whose wheel was he following? Not Démare's because he was up the road before Sagan knew he was there. He stays consistently too far right of Bouhanni to be in his slipstream.


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## DaveG

aclinjury said:


> Seriously, that's your analysis? I'm sorry, but Sagan was riding that way because he was following someone's wheel, that's racing, right? Or do you expect Sagan to sit up and *politely move aside* and let Cav and et al go by and around him?


I wonder if officials interviewed the other riders in that sprint as well as Cav and Sagan. Maybe they learned something we didn't see. I watched it a bunch of times and based on just the video, I tend to agree that Cav started the chain of events with his aggressive move. I probably would have been OK with just a penalty for Sagan


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## Handbrake

DaveG said:


> I tend to agree that Cav started the chain of events with his aggressive move.


Who started it is relevant only on the playground and in internet fan fiction disguised as posts. The rules are the rules and as generally interpreted contact like rubbing gets a pass. Even deviating from a line, like Sagan did today, usually does unless it is accompanied by elbowing someone into the barriers. 

Look at the stage they kicked Renshaw out over. Dean initiated the contact, but since the jury is composed of grownups that wasn't the deciding factor.


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## tommybike

Handbrake said:


> Who started it is relevant only on the playground and in internet fan fiction disguised as posts. The rules are the rules and as generally interpreted contact like rubbing gets a pass. Even deviating from a line, like Sagan did today, usually does unless it is accompanied by elbowing someone into the barriers.
> 
> Look at the stage they kicked Renshaw out over. Dean initiated the contact, but since the jury is composed of grownups that wasn't the deciding factor.


So running into someone is perfectly fine but trying to balance yourself is Not?

Interesting adult view. 

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## Oxtox

Cav is just working off some bad karma from years of his sketchy tactics.


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## Handbrake

tommybike said:


> So running into someone is perfectly fine but trying to balance yourself is Not?


If you mean the Renshaw/Dean situation, Renshaw was doing more than trying to balance himself.

If you mean Sagan/Cavendish you are mistaken, because Sagan both ran into Cav by deviating from his line as well as tried to balance himself by elbowing Cav into the barriers. Were they in the middle of the course the line deviation might not have been an issue as Cav would have had room to go around him. Deviating so as to use the barriers to endanger another rider is regularly punished.


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## SFTifoso

aclinjury said:


> here's a pic BEFORE Sagan's elbow comes out
> 
> View attachment 319644
> 
> 
> Notice that at this point, Sagan's body is inline with Demare (the FDJ rider in front) and that Sagan is not leaning his body. The only person that is leaning is Cav, and Cav is leaning his head into Sagan's body. Cav is behind Sagan. Then shortly after this, Sagan's elbow come flying out, and that to me is racing.
> 
> Furthermore, Cav still has well over a foot of space to his right, so clearly Cav could have moved to his right if he wanted to avoid leaning into Sagan. But, moving to his right is not how Cav operates. I trust that everyone in here knows that Cav's modus operandi is to lean into other and fight for position at all cost, and he has done this throughout his career to great success. It's just that this is a rare few time that he got a taste of his own medicine.


Sagan did not "throw" an elbow at all. Cavs brake hood caught his arm and he was trying to dislodge it, hence why his elbow came out. This accident is 90% on Cav. UCI ****** up... again.


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## tommybike

Handbrake said:


> If you mean the Renshaw/Dean situation, Dean was doing more than trying to balance himself.
> 
> If you mean Sagan/Cavendish you are mistaken, because Sagan both ran into cav by deviating from his line as well as tried to balance himself by elbowing Cav into the barriers.


Watch the video. Cav went into an opening that was not there. He pushed his head and wheel into Sagan. Did Sagan drift right like the entire group? Yes. Worst case this is racing. Both had some fault. Listen to what the other racers said. Greipel apologized for blaming Sagan and said the DQ was unwarranted. Read Jens Voigt tweets. Listen to the commentators. 

There was no reason for a DQ. 

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## tuffguy1500

tommybike said:


> Watch the video. Cav went into an opening that was not there. He pushed his head and wheel into Sagan.


^^
This. Watched the replay at a bar with a fellow who has no clue about racing and even he could see Cav make contact with Sagans legs before he hits with his head, before Sagan puts an elbow out, and you can clearly see Cav leaning LEFT into Sagan. Cav even said in his post-crash interview that he just wants to know what happened with the elbow. He and Sagan "get along", but Cav was clearly not fired up per his usual post-crash antics. He knows he caused it, he's guilty, and Sagan should not have been DQ'd.


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## 195cranky

During the TV coverage with no dvr recording saw in the numerous video repeats from the front camera view that Cav's left brake hood contacted and slid up Sagan's inside forearm and as Cav was starting to fall to the right the pull on Sagan's forearm by the brake hood caused Sagan's elbow to come up and out. Watch it close and you will see the same. 

Don't know how the jury could miss that. They were distracted by all the other conspiracy theories floating and looked at the elbow as the cause but not the effect. Cav tried to squeeze thru, brake hood hits Sagan's arm, Sagan under sprint load feels it and moves his elbow up and out. That all there is there. How can other's not see that??


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## SFTifoso

KoroninK said:


> Wait, so now that Sagan is out for a DQ it's ok to not be interested in watching the Tour anymore. Yet some of you were getting on me (and thus other fans of Alejandro) for being done with the Tour after he crashed out of the TT with a serious injury.


Both suck. I was gutted when La Bala was out, because I know that guaranteed another yellow for froome. Valverde was on spectacular form this year.

I blame the UCI and ASO for these incidents. They keep putting up those stupid metal barriers and riders keep getting hurt. Even some sand bags in front of of those barriers might've saved Valverde's tour. And with Sagan they got it 100% wrong. Cav's hood caught his arm, he didn't throw an elbow.


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## Handbrake

tommybike said:


> Watch the video. Cav went into an opening that was not there.


It was the same opening Démare had just used to sprint past Sagan and it was just as wide when Cav hit it. At least a bike length between Sagan and the barriers.










It was narrow when Cav went down because Sagan deviated from his line to close it.


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## Rashadabd

Nothing to offer other than to say it's a sucky outcome all the way around. I like both of these guys and it's a disappointment to see so many good riders already out of the race. 

That being said, that's the way it goes down sometimes. As for me, I like bike racing more than I like one or two riders or hate the UCI and ASO, so the TdF is far from over for me. I understand where people are coming from though, Sagan is one of my two favorites (along with Kwiatkowski), but I am still not going to stop watching this or any other race simply because he is out of it. In fact, I watch races they don't even line up for. Everyone has to do what makes them happy though. So, do you. I just hate to see races end like this for folks. It's really a shame.


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## tommybike

Handbrake said:


> It was the same opening Démare had just used to sprint past Sagan and it was just as wide when Cav hit it. At least a bike length between Sagan and the barriers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was narrow when Cav went down because Sagan deviated from his line to close it.


Why do you keep watching that bad video. Watch the front shot that actually shows what happens. The group was moving right. Cav tries to squeeze in where there was no space then pushes Sagan. You are the only one that can't see this. 

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## Rashadabd

Oh.... and I don't get people that say Sagan and/or Cavendish "suck." They are clearly two of the best in the world, period. If you can't grasp that, you don't understand pro cycling. You are basically outing yourself as a groupie and publicly acknowledging you are not truly a pro cycling fan. No hate, I'm just saying....


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## tommybike

Rashadabd said:


> Nothing to offer other than to say it's a sucky outcome all the way around. I like both of these guys and it's a disappointment to see so many good riders already out of the race.
> 
> That being said, that's the way it goes down sometimes. As for me, I like bike racing more than I like one or two riders or hate the UCI and ASO, so the TdF is far from over for me. I understand where people are coming from though, Sagan is one of my two favorites (along with Kwiatkowski), but I am still not going to stop watching this or any other race simply because he is out of it. In fact, I watch races they don't even line up for. Everyone has to do what makes them happy though. So, do you. I just hate to see races end like this for folks. It's really a shame.


Normally I would agree but when an organization does something this blatantly biases or stupid I refuse to support them. 

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## Handbrake

tommybike said:


> Why do you keep watching that bad video. Watch the front shot that actually shows what happens. The group was moving right. Cav tries to squeeze in where there was no space then pushes Sagan. You are the only one that can't see this.


I don't keep watching it, though I have posted a couple of screenshots from it. Regardless does reflect the reality of the situation and better shows Sagan deviating from his line. The front on shot, even the slowed version posted earlier, clearly shows that as well.

The riders ahead of Sagan were moving right, apart from Démare who'd passed them all. The difference is there were no riders to the right of Bouhanni and the rider to his left. In Sagan's case there was a rider to his right who he drove into the barrier.

Earlier you were blaming Démarre (sic), now it is the whole group. I can understand the Démare angle as his blowing past Sagan made clear the presence of the lane, but the rest of the group?


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## tommybike

Handbrake said:


> I don't keep watching it, though I have posted a couple of screenshots from it. Regardless does reflect the reality of the situation and better shows Sagan deviating from his line. The front on shot, even the slowed version posted earlier, clearly shows that as well.
> 
> The riders ahead of Sagan were moving right, apart from Démare who'd passed them all. The difference is there were no riders to the right of Bouhanni and the rider to his left. In Sagan's case there was a rider to his right who he drove into the barrier.
> 
> Earlier you were blaming Démarre (sic), now it is the whole group. I can understand the Démare angle as his blowing past Sagan made clear the presence of the lane, but the rest of the group?


No. But watch the video. Yes Demarre moves. That is not just me. That is the commentators. That is Jens Voigt. 

Sagan does not elbow Cav. Cav runs into Sagan. There was no lane. Not sure what your angle is but you have the wrong one. 

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## Handbrake

tommybike said:


> There was no lane. Not sure what your angle is but you have the wrong one.


My angle is reality and I am at ease in dealing in it.

So you think both Démare and Cav were at fault in choosing a sprint lane that was at least a bike length wide? How much of a berth should riders give Sagan?


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## tommybike

Handbrake said:


> My angle is reality and I am at ease in dealing in it.
> 
> So you think both Démare and Cav were at fault in choosing a sprint lane that was at least a bike length wide? How much of a berth should riders give Sagan?


I think it was racing. And I think one answer is not to run directly into them and lean left. 

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## tommybike

tommybike said:


> No. But watch the video. Yes Demarre moves. That is not just me. That is the commentators. That is Jens Voigt.
> 
> Sagan does not elbow Cav. Cav runs into Sagan. There was no lane. Not sure what your angle is but you have the wrong one.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Chris Horner as well.
https://twitter.com/hornerakg/status/882318776544501760


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## spookyload

Just like the commentators, none of you bike geniuses have even mentioned Demarre deviated so far from his line that Bouhani(who I hate) did miracles to stay upright. Demarre should be relegated as well. Watch Bouhani and see what happens to him


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## tommybike

spookyload said:


> Just like the commentators, none of you bike geniuses have even mentioned Demarre deviated so far from his line that Bouhani(who I hate) did miracles to stay upright. Demarre should be relegated as well. Watch Bouhani and see what happens to him


Jens Voigt agrees with you
"Take your time and watch the replay in slowmotion. Then forget about Peter and Cav. Focus on Demarre. He is the first to change trajectoire"

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## Handbrake

spookyload said:


> Just like the commentators, none of you bike geniuses have even mentioned Demarre deviated so far from his line that Bouhani(who I hate) did miracles to stay upright.


The is about Sagan's DQ so Démare's antics aren't topical.


----------



## aclinjury

Cav has done this sht plenty of times in his career.

Remember how he took out Veelers in the 2013 Tour? Cav said he was trying to follow Kitel's wheel (whom Veeler was leading out) and Veelers was in the way so Cav tried to jump to Kitel's wheel by bull rushing Veelers.





(start watching at the 0:50 mark)

Did they the Tour DQ'ed Cav for taking out Veelers then? No!

Cav ain't no saint. He just got unluckly this time, that's racing. I'm pissed that they DQ'd Sagan in this whole thing. I'm not crying for Cav. And anyone who's trying to argue oh Sagan did this or shouldn't have done that... must be new to watching Cavendish racing?? Seriously

I'm posting the video above not to argue who's in the wrong and what not. But I wanted to make a point that this stuff happened in the Tour in the past, and it involved Cav in the past, plenty. Yet I don't recall any DQ'ing? So why the DQ now? How is incident now any worse than the one in 2013? I see both incidents as same sh*t.


----------



## spookyload

Handbrake said:


> The is about Sagan's DQ so Démare's antics aren't topical.


By all means, continue to argue over third place.


----------



## OldChipper

tommybike said:


> Not one commentator raised the possibility of a penalty before the ridiculous Dimension Data people came on.
> 
> Not one rider, current or former has agreed with the decision.
> 
> You can say that either was at fault. Probably a little of both.
> 
> But a DQ is absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Really? Not one commentator, whose jobs depend on having charismatic characters in the race so people will watch, called for a Sagan DQ??? Shocking!


----------



## tommybike

OldChipper said:


> Really? Not one commentator, whose jobs depend on having charismatic characters in the race so people will watch, called for a Sagan DQ??? Shocking!


No. The decision was absurd. Here is Velonews report of it.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/commentary/jury-wrong-sagans-dq_442744/amp

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## OldChipper

tommybike said:


> No. The decision was absurd. Here is Velonews report of it.
> 
> Why the jury is wrong on Sagan's DSQ | VeloNews.com
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Oh well, VeloNews agrees. I totally admit I'm wrong now. 

They were warned. There's been too much of this BS in pro sprinting for some time now. Maybe they'll pay attention now.


----------



## MMsRepBike

I smell politics as well.

The more the footage is reviewed, the more it seems as though Sagan had no malicious intent. The deeper you dive, the more it looks like racing... with some bad line deviations by a few.

As they reviewed the footage, the penalties increased. 

Race chief or whatever that douchebag calls himself decided to disappear before his underlings announced their decision.


----------



## Handbrake

spookyload said:


> By all means, continue to argue over third place.


Thanks!

As you can see, everyone was waiting for you to give us the go ahead.


----------



## dnice

my two cents: cav was at fault for the initial contact. sagan reacted to avoid a potential crash (elbow was part of keeping balance/part of pushing back), but it didn't matter; cav was going down at that point.

initial penalty was sufficient; i would not have DQ'd him from race for that.


----------



## KoroninK

SFTifoso said:


> Both suck. I was gutted when La Bala was out, because I know that guaranteed another yellow for froome. Valverde was on spectacular form this year.
> 
> I blame the UCI and ASO for these incidents. They keep putting up those stupid metal barriers and riders keep getting hurt. Even some sand bags in front of of those barriers might've saved Valverde's tour. And with Sagan they got it 100% wrong. Cav's hood caught his arm, he didn't throw an elbow.


He was, and he was aiming for another Vuelta title, which was actually his big goal for the season. The good news in his case is the doctors (team and at the hospital) expect him to cover 100% from all injuries and be racing by the end of Feb.

I agree, they have done basically nothing to address rider safety. Heck auto racing has install foam barriers around tracks, but the UCI and ASO still use metal fences that continue to injure riders. They could put something softer over them at the least. Sandbags would have prevented Bala from being as seriously injured as he is. Not sure about Izagirre. Don't know how he hit to fracture his lumbar.


----------



## duriel

There was plenty of room to Sagan's left to hold his line there. The 'elbow' is a problem. I not a fan of Cav, but they race directors have made a decision to have the sprinters dial the contact back and it has to start somewhere.


----------



## thenazz

That's what I see. Cav's wreck has already started, he's off balance and headed towards the barriers by the time Sagan's elbow comes out. Bullshit decision.


----------



## 9W9W

pedalbiker said:


> Four stage wins last year show you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Second most stages in TdF history.
> 
> Get a clue.


Four sounds like a lot but it's cherry picking stats. You have you have to go back to 2012 when he was riding for Sky 
and got three, most recent years between then have been 1 and done with the tour, if that. At this level they all have impressive palmares. 2010 was a good year but that was quite a bit of time has passed since (I'm not as old as you are). He's still a whiny schmuck who always has an excuse for lack of production, and always (always) blames others.


----------



## 9W9W

In this video : https://twitter.com/Smoothedan (should be right up top or a short scroll)

you can CLEARLY see Cav's brake hood get jammed up in Sagan's bars and he flicks he elbow to dislodge the hood. I suppose we see what we want to see but both bikes tug, so to speak, in the same direction after Cav leans in.


----------



## aclinjury

The decision is at a minimum has to favor Demare, a hopeful sprinter on the French FDJ team. With Sagan out, Demare has more chances. And now with Cav may be out too, well icing on the cake.


----------



## SFTifoso

The elbow was a result of Cavs brake hood catching and hooking Sagan arm. This is on Cav. God, when will the uci stop being so stupid??? I hate that org. Stupid rules, politics, and a complete disregard for rider safety.


----------



## coldash

Voigt, McEwen and others have said that they think the -80 points was fair enough (the original jury decision) but that a DQ from the TdF (the revised decision) is too severe. I.e. In their view Sagan is guilty, the question is over the sentence. It would be useful to know why the jury revised their decision (input from other teams is not allowed). Maybe it was because they believed that Sagan also caused the earlier crash at 1.5Km to go or was seen head butting Greipel the previous day and took these into account. I doubt we'll find out.

Anyway for me, the TdF goes on and I'm looking forward to a good enjoyable event. I don't care who wins but do want to see a good competition.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

Wesquire said:


> Wait all year for the one race with decent TV coverage in the US and they DQ the most interesting rider of the event over a routine sprinting accident. Unacceptable.


it is seriously Fd up. The Jury members are blind and were likely never pro sprinters themselves.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

MMsRepBike said:


> I smell politics as well.
> 
> The more the footage is reviewed, the more it seems as though Sagan had no malicious intent. The deeper you dive, the more it looks like racing... with some bad line deviations by a few.
> 
> As they reviewed the footage, the penalties increased.
> 
> Race chief or whatever that douchebag calls himself decided to disappear before his underlings announced their decision.


You refer to Prudhomme (Race director)? He works for ASO, and ASO has the most to lose from this DQ of cycling's Tiger Woods.. ASO is not the UCI, nor is the ASO a promoter of 'French nation pride,' but rather they are a corporation focused on making profits from the many major races they own like the Vuelta a Espana, Tour de Yorkshire and heck they also own the the Dakar Rally. They have no input on the UCI commissaires which are mandated to act independently like a supreme court of justices.

It was the UCI commissaire jury which pulled this turd from the hat. Supposedly they spent hours reviewing the video, but seems of all the cyclists and teams out there only Cav and Aldag insist the entire crash was Sagan's fault. And yet the jury agreed with those two.

It's a frickin disaster of a Tour so far I think. Valverde gone! Both Cav and Sagan gone. Yellow jersey and Froome and dozens of others crashing on the tarmac already.


----------



## coldash

It is clearly not true that Cavendish and Alda are the "only" ones who think Sagan is guilty; others but not Cav, see above, have agreed that Sagan was at fault, even Sagan said it was partly his fault. The area of dispute is the penalty. IMHO the 80 points was the maximum they should have imposed unless they also took into account Sagan's role in the earlier incident that brought the peloton down but until and if the jury says anything, we won't know 

... and Cav did not blame Sagan. He said the move was one thing but he didn't understand the elbow and wanted to talk to Sagan about it i.e. He was seeking clarification not making accusations.


----------



## Old Man

No way to slice it.. Crap move by the jury. The whole bunch was tracking right, Demare was still in front of Cav and Sagan when Cav tried to squeeze through on the right (of a right tracking bunch close to the barriers). No doubt the detail shot shows Cav leaning into Sagan before he went down, and like others have said, as Cav was going down his brake hood is inside Sagan's arm which is the main cause for the elbow...
What about Demare crossing the others and impeding their sprint? 

Such a crap decision..


----------



## Marc

Old Man said:


> No way to slice it.. Crap move by the jury. The whole bunch was tracking right, Demare was still in front of Cav and Sagan when Cav tried to squeeze through on the right (of a right tracking bunch close to the barriers). No doubt the detail shot shows Cav leaning into Sagan before he went down, and like others have said, as Cav was going down his brake hood is inside Sagan's arm which is the main cause for the elbow...
> What about Demare crossing the others and impeding their sprint?
> 
> Such a crap decision..


Did Demare cause a crash?


The jury, historically, tends to let hockey-fight sprinting fly...up until someone gets hurt. Whatever DeMare did, no one was taken out.


----------



## Old Man

No, Demare did not, but, you can't cherry pick how you impose the rules and or fines.


----------



## coldash

No doubt about it. Sagan caused the crash. The penalty is the main point of dispute. Sagan was also instrumental in the crash at 1.5Km and was elbowing Bouhanni on the left side of the course prior to turning his attention on Cavandish.

... and the previous day Sagan head butted Greipel in one of the intermediate sprints. That's a DQ on its own - ask Mark Renshaw. 

If it had been Bouhanni instead of Sagan the people would have been calling for a DQ sine die.


----------



## Marc

Old Man said:


> No, Demare did not, but, you can't cherry pick how you impose the rules and or fines.



Oh but they are put in the position of having to.

Last year I want to say, on a mountain stage half the peloton did not make the time cut...including all the sprinters. The sprinters all soft pedaled and figured they'd call the commissaires bluff and didn't race. Calling the jury's bluff, they were right and the jury didn't kick them out. Because a peloton of 200 would suddenly become a peloton of 100-including the likes of Cav and Sagan IIRC all poofed. I personally thought it would have been funny as hell and a teachable moment, and the right thing, for the jury to toss them-but the ASO would have gotten hell from all the teams...something politically they cannot afford.

Should they have DQ'd every sprinter in contention in the final 200m? All of them were as much or more involved in Cav going down as DeMare was.




Don't get me wrong....not a Cav fan at all (he is much less of a hot head now than years back).


----------



## gofast2wheeler

Cav seemed speechless when they interviewed him and told him Sagan was DQ, he probably said to himself my winning is over because Cav always races like that his opponent either has to get out of the way to let him by or face hitting the deck. This time Sagan being the great bike handler he is only did what he needed to do to stay upright and defend his space. I like Cav but shame on him for creating this mess he should off backed off but Cav is Cav nerves of steal does not care if he hits ground. Some ex pro said it best the commissioners should be ex riders so they have an understanding on what it's like in a Sprint but they don't. Poorest decision ever, the riders should have striked until Sagan was reinstated. I personally think they used this to get rid of Sagan because it looked like he was going to win green again, that was urking somebody for sure.


----------



## gofast2wheeler

Mark Renshaw will never oppose Cav that's his boy, and rightfully so. Only opinions in my eyes that matter are ex pros who been there done that and it seems their against Dq, but hey what do I know I'm a hobbiest. Just glad nobody was seriously hurt so that's a good thing could have been much worst for sure, the guts of these guys amazes me.


----------



## velodog




----------



## Marc

gofast2wheeler said:


> Cav seemed speechless when they interviewed him and told him Sagan was DQ, he probably said to himself my winning is over because Cav always races like that his opponent either has to get out of the way to let him by or face hitting the deck. This time Sagan being the great bike handler he is only did what he needed to do to stay upright and defend his space. I like Cav but shame on him for creating this mess he should off backed off but Cav is Cav nerves of steal does not care if he hits ground. Some ex pro said it best the commissioners should be ex riders so they have an understanding on what it's like in a Sprint but they don't. *Poorest decision ever,* the riders should have striked until Sagan was reinstated. I personally think they used this to get rid of Sagan because it looked like he was going to win green again, that was urking somebody for sure.


No. Not by a long shot.

The sprinters were warned this year by the ASO/UCI they were going to be tighter in jurying sprints...Sagan/Cav decided to dare the moderators in the heat of the moment. Cav's recompense was a broken shoulder, and Sagan got a DQ.


----------



## tlg

If you lean into me with your head at 50kph, I'm leaning back into you & lifting my elbow to maintain balance so I do not go down.
No doubt Cavendish caused this chain of events.

I love watching Cavendish sprint. But he's definitely one of the most reckless sprinters EVER. Always forcing himself through openings, pushing, shoving, causing crashes and crashing himself.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Here is the problem, plain and simple.

The ASO are lying.

They repeatedly claim that Sagan elbowed Cav in the head.

Not just ASO, but DD and rest who called for the expulsion.

That's a lie.

End of story.

Demare got no penalty at all for his very dangerous deviation in the same sprint.

Politics. Nothing more. Lies and politics.

Not that I care about PS, I don't. But I'm fed up with ASO. They're directly responsible for the crashes in the first stage. They pull this **** now. Done with them. The rest of the tour and the vuelta can pound it.

It's not about the race anymore. It's not about bike racing in general. I can't watch a race where the organizer's corruption is destroying it. One where their politics come before safe and hard real racing.

Might just be done watching any ASO event or caring about it. Really pisses me off that I can't watch vlogs or anything from their events either. Fuuuuuck them.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Marc said:


> The sprinters were warned this year by the ASO/UCI they were going to be tighter in jurying sprints...Sagan/Cav decided to dare the moderators in the heat of the moment. Cav's recompense was a broken shoulder, and Sagan got a DQ.


You're full of it.

Read any of their statements, they are lies.

Read any of what DD is saying. Lies.

If what you said was true, Demare would be relegated. So you're just as full of it as ASO are. You are, in fact, enabling their behavior and are just as bad as they are.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Marc said:


> Did Demare cause a crash?
> 
> 
> The jury, historically, tends to let hockey-fight sprinting fly...up until someone gets hurt. Whatever DeMare did, no one was taken out.


Oh yeah, how about that historical Renshaw headbutt?

How many people crashed?

Again, you're full of it.


----------



## Marc

MMsRepBike said:


> You're full of it.
> 
> Read any of their statements, they are lies.
> 
> Read any of what DD is saying. Lies.
> 
> If what you said was true, Demare would be relegated. So you're just as full of it as ASO are. You are, in fact, enabling their behavior and are just as bad as they are.


How many people crashed as an immediate result of Demare's riding? Race organizers tend to let it slide, so long as people don't get hurt.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Marc said:


> How many people crashed as an immediate result of Demare's riding? Race organizers tend to let it slide, so long as people don't get hurt.


Read above, you're lying again.

They ejected Renshaw. No crash. Nobody hurt.

Full of it.


----------



## Marc

MMsRepBike said:


> Read above, you're lying again.
> 
> They ejected Renshaw. No crash. Nobody hurt.
> 
> Full of it.


That is one exception...in the last 17 years and what 300 some odd stages.


Fine, I'm full of it. Then again, it is only a bike race to me...and I have no real vested interest or feelings in either Sagan or Cav needing to be in TdF....and calling for the cancellation of millions of tourism dollars to tiny french towns that didn't do anything wrong...all because Sagan and Cav cannot be bothered to ride in a straight line.


----------



## fast ferd

You know how everybody tells you not to apologize to the other party (after an automobile accident), because it tends to make you appear to admit fault? Well, Sagan went to Cav immediately after the race to apologize. I think he knew.


----------



## tlg

fast ferd said:


> You know how everybody tells you not to apologize to the other party (after an automobile accident), because it tends to make you appear to admit fault? Well, Sagan went to Cav immediately after the race to apologize. I think he knew.


He went to see how Cavendish was. He didn't necessarily apologize. All he said was he was sorry Cavendish was hurt. Not that he was responsible.


----------



## LostViking

Seems there is a lot of blame to go around. If you're going to DQ Sagan, perhaps you should do the same to Cav and a few others? A bad call.


----------



## 50x25

tlg said:


> I love watching Cavendish sprint. But he's definitely one of the most reckless sprinters EVER. Always forcing himself through openings, pushing, shoving, causing crashes and crashing himself.


Yeah I couldn't really tell what happened until I saw the headon slowmo this morning. When I watched that you could see cav was leaning into sagan and was falling well before the elbow came out which never made contact. This was cav's fault 100% trying to barge his way through a hole that wasn't there. Unfortunately the overhead shot which was shown repeatedly obscured too much info and made it look like sagan's elbow caused it.

Cav being typically douchie because he knew what really happened but he kept his mouth shut. He knew the elbow never made contact, his actions caused the crash sagan was just trying to keep himself upright, throwing his left knee and his right elbow out for ballast. 

You can't make a decision until you see the headon slow, Greipel who originally blamed pete changed his tune overnight


----------



## dcb

Well I'm bummed as a viewer and fan as I like watching Sagan and Cav. It would have been fun to see if Cav could have made a run at the record for stage wins and Sagan animates races like no other these days. 

Separate issue: Demare's line deviation was blatant and impacted Bouhanni for sure. I can't see why this wasn't addressed. I guess now there actually has to be a crash for any action to take place? We will see. 

Bouhanni: Demare cut me up in Tour de France sprint | Cyclingnews.com


----------



## taodemon

MMsRepBike said:


> Here is the problem, plain and simple.
> 
> The ASO are lying.
> 
> They repeatedly claim that Sagan elbowed Cav in the head.
> 
> Not just ASO, but DD and rest who called for the expulsion.
> 
> That's a lie.
> 
> End of story.
> 
> Demare got no penalty at all for his very dangerous deviation in the same sprint.
> 
> Politics. Nothing more. Lies and politics.


Pretty much this. You can clearly see Cav's hood pulling out Sagan's arm and you also see Sagan's body being pulled in that direction by Cav falling and maintaining his balance despite this. 

Sagan might have been at some fault for deviating from his line but the whole bunch was deviating there at the end and Cav made a bad call in attempting to pass where he did. Cav lost his balance from the initial contact at the head/shoulder and that is pretty obvious. The elbow only came out because of the hood catching Sagan's arm and even then well after Cav was already going down. Unfortunate as it was it just seems like normal racing. 

If they were going to dock points for not maintaining lines there should be several riders docked points on that sprint as the whole group was cutting back and forth across the road. 

I like Cav but he has done this type of stuff before, even as recently as the olympics. This time it didn't go his way. 

The disqualification was completely uncalled for and smells of politics. What better way to remove Sagan's monopoly on the green jersey than to remove him completely.


----------



## upstateSC-rider

I think Cav tried to go through a quickly-closing door and caused the event, too bad it's Sagan that got the ban stick. I have respect for Cav as a sprinter but he doesn't wear a halo during sprints but has been better during recent years.


----------



## pedalbiker

9W9W said:


> Four sounds like a lot but it's cherry picking stats. You have you have to go back to 2012 when he was riding for Sky
> and got three, most recent years between then have been 1 and done with the tour, if that. At this level they all have impressive palmares. 2010 was a good year but that was quite a bit of time has passed since (I'm not as old as you are). He's still a whiny schmuck who always has an excuse for lack of production, and always (always) blames others.


What kind of ridiculous attempt at a rebuttal is that? 

Four stage wins LAST YEAR. How is that cherry picking anything? 

You've got a failure to comprehend going on or something.


----------



## n2deep

A little pushing and shoving is to be expected, or we can all play nice and give all sprinters a gold star for the day!! Are they not racing for the most coveted prize in cycling? The DQ sucks-its stupid-its wrong, I do not believe that Sagan purposefully elbowed Cav into the fence. Cav was in the wrong spot at the right time and sometimes a gamble is just that. The officials that handed out this decision stupidly diminished the status of the tour and bike racing.


----------



## taxidermy man

9W9W said:


> I have disliked Cavendish for quite a few years now. In addition to being a whiny female dog he is also a reckless has been who will do anything to prove himself to/with the currently relevant riders.
> 
> He should ride out the rest of his contract on rollers. Dunce.


Totally agree.


----------



## pmf

LostViking said:


> Seems there is a lot of blame to go around. If you're going to DQ Sagan, perhaps you should do the same to Cav and a few others? A bad call.


Didn't Cav kind of DQ himself?

The whole thing is Cav's fault IMO. He clearly tried to muscle his way through a gap that wasn't there. He's desperate for a win this year. I've watched Sagan race for several years and he isn't an aggressive rider. Cav, OTOH has a history of aggressive racing. Too bad the jury didn't take that into account. 

I guess we'll see Sagan at the Vuelta. Unfortunately, coverage of that race on TV is pretty much nonexistent.


----------



## LostViking

pmf said:


> Didn't Cav kind of DQ himself?
> 
> The whole thing is Cav's fault IMO.


True that. Hate to see some of the most high-profile sprinters out of the race though.
Still a few good ones in it though - thinking Matthews might get the Green in Paris now.


----------



## Marc

pmf said:


> Didn't Cav kind of DQ himself?
> 
> The whole thing is Cav's fault IMO. He clearly tried to muscle his way through a gap that wasn't there. He's desperate for a win this year. I've watched Sagan race for several years and he isn't an aggressive rider. Cav, OTOH has a history of aggressive racing. Too bad the jury didn't take that into account.
> 
> I guess we'll see Sagan at the Vuelta. Unfortunately, coverage of that race on TV is pretty much nonexistent.


They're both tools in their own way. Cav was a hot head...Remember Peter the PG-Butt-Pincher?


----------



## wfl3

Marc said:


> How many people crashed as an immediate result of Demare's riding? Race organizers tend to let it slide, so long as people don't get hurt.


Only because Bouhani checked up and didn't clip Demare's rear wheel when he cut across him. Cav (and many others) probably wouldn't have checked up and there would have been a crash. So I guess as long as the other riders demure to your will it's all good?


----------



## OldZaskar

Other than Cav's team, I've heard/read/seen NO ONE in the industry (other current and past racers, commentators, team directors, etc) say this was all or mostly Sagan's fault or that the penalty is fair. NBC Sports is running a fan poll - 88% disagree with the DQ. 

Why the $%#*@ are you guys still arguing that Sagan was treated fairly?


----------



## fast ferd

The consensus here seems the same - Sagan did not deserve expulsion.
Seconds before the crash, he clearly drifted right to take Demare's wheel from Cav. And, therefore, should know of Cav's whereabouts. For that, he should get relegated. Good chance Cav would otherwise take the sprint.


----------



## wfl3

fast ferd said:


> The consensus here seems the same - Sagan did not deserve expulsion.
> Seconds before the crash, he clearly drifted right to take Demare's wheel from Cav. And, therefore, should know of Cav's whereabouts. For that, he should get relegated. Good chance Cav would otherwise take the sprint.


Sorry, It wasn't Sagan's job to take care of Cavendish or make room for him. 

Did Demare get relegated for cutting across everyone and causing Bouhanni to check up or crash?


----------



## T K

Has Sagan's team issued a statement? 
I was almost surprised to see them in the race today. I would have not blamed them if they pulled out in protest.


----------



## fast ferd

wfl3 said:


> Sorry, It wasn't Sagan's job to take care of Cavendish or make room for him.


Well, I never said that. I responded to OldZaskar's post.
People are focusing on the crash and phantom elbow throw.
In my mind, Sagan's infraction occurred when he drifted across to take Demare's wheel from Cav.


----------



## wfl3

fast ferd said:


> Well, I never said that. I responded to OldZaskar's post.
> People are focusing on the crash and phantom elbow throw.
> In my mind, Sagan's infraction occurred when he drifted across to take Demare's wheel from Cav.


Cav NEVER had Demare's wheel?????

If everyone that "drifted" got relegated then the whole sprint field would get relegated most of the time? Demare did a lot more than drift though.


----------



## fast ferd

wfl3 said:


> Cav NEVER had Demare's wheel?????


Here ya go, sport.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOyNOuZSuUw

This one is even better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg


----------



## ExChefinMA

fast ferd said:


> Here ya go, sport.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOyNOuZSuUw
> 
> This one is even better:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg


Maybe I'm blind but it looks like Demare drifted right then cut back left, Cav tried to follow INTO Sagan. 

If you look at around the :50 second mark, of the second link you posted, until the crash, you will see what I am talking about. 

EEC


----------



## n2deep

fast ferd said:


> Here ya go, sport.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOyNOuZSuUw
> 
> This one is even better:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg


Respectfully disagree,, Cav started the sprint knowing that the envelope was closing and tried to muscle thru,, sometimes a gamble pays, sometimes not.. How do you hold the line when the whole group is shifting, its just right place, wrong time.. 

This decision is biased and relegates the tour to a popularity contest, nothing more.. Next stage all sprinters will get a participation medal or a gold star..


----------



## aclinjury

aw come mon boys can we please stop with the back and forth little debates based on youtube videos and pics. Guys will see what they wanna see based on the videos, call it homerism. Whatever.

What is clear is this:

1. sprinting is always going to involve bumping and shoving
2. Cav has done this stuff, he's the gold standard on this
3. Tour has let this stuff gone on in the past since, forever, for hundreds of times

So, why the disqualification now? Was Sagan's action an intent? The only reason I would see for a DQ is if Sagan's action was intent. But every videos I've seen has shown that Sagan's action was either:

1. the resulting reaction of Cav's action
2. it was unintentional (racing incident)

So I'm, like most people in here, and most commentators and ex pros, baffled by the decision to disqualified Sagan. I would like to hear the reasons and/or justification for dq'ing Sagan. And if there is no legit justifications based on legit evidence and past occurrences and past punishment of other riders doing the same sh*t, then I conclude that the decision was based on *political bs*. Who's in here disagree with this assessment?


----------



## thumper8888

fast ferd said:


> The consensus here seems the same - Sagan did not deserve expulsion.
> Seconds before the crash, he clearly drifted right to take Demare's wheel from Cav. And, therefore, should know of Cav's whereabouts. For that, he should get relegated. Good chance Cav would otherwise take the sprint.


This is exactly right.

Compensate for the slo mo, check the overhead view, looking at the gap between Sagan and the wall before they go under the tree, then the gap AFTER they come out.
He had drifted right, but then clearly made a second, sharper cut to the right.
He came violently over into space that Cav owned already. Forget the shove(s). THey're a distraction. Sagan behaved in an extremely dangerous fashion with the sharp right jerk that took up a full lane.
Then read the articles in velonews and cycling news quoting various members of the pro peloton and team officials. NO one says Sagan wasn't guilty. Some don't assign guilt, but that speaks volumes. It would be easy to say it was 50/50 etc.
Those who DO assign guilt say exactly what I say above in one way or another.
He broke the rules, and it caused a bad crash.
The only real debate is over whether he should have been tossed out of the race, and I agree with the now widespread view in and out of the peloton that he should have only been relegated.
But that's not the same thing as saying he behaved properly during the sprint.


----------



## Marc

OldZaskar said:


> Other than Cav's team, I've heard/read/seen NO ONE in the industry (other current and past racers, commentators, team directors, etc) say this was all or mostly Sagan's fault or that the penalty is fair. *NBC Sports is running a fan poll - 88% disagree with the DQ.
> *
> Why the $%#*@ are you guys still arguing that Sagan was treated fairly?


Awesome, 88 % believe that...in a country where 42% believe in creationist fairy tales, and 46% voted for Donald Trump. Heck NBC viewers probably believed Lance was clean back in the day, too.


The stock of what Americans believe or agree with is a pretty low value currency.


----------



## mikerp

velodog said:


> View attachment 319647


LOL
Nice one. IMO it was a bad and heavy handed call to DQ PS from the TdF, it does nothing for the race or sport. Everyone involved in this case was a sprinter, they all know what the deal is at this point.


----------



## T K

I think you are spot on ACL.


----------



## viciouscycle

9W9W said:


> In this video : https://twitter.com/Smoothedan (should be right up top or a short scroll)
> 
> you can CLEARLY see Cav's brake hood get jammed up in Sagan's bars and he flicks he elbow to dislodge the hood. I suppose we see what we want to see but both bikes tug, so to speak, in the same direction after Cav leans in.


You could even argue that the brake hood pulled up on the elbow enough to make it look like he threw it, complete BS call either way.


----------



## wfl3

fast ferd said:


> Here ya go, sport.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOyNOuZSuUw
> 
> This one is even better:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg


OK, I'll retract the NEVER.

Demare cut hard left across everyone, I guess it was Sagan's job to move over so Cav could do what he wanted???

LOL


----------



## spookyload

Robbie McCewen reported today that several riders were telling him off the record that Sagan caused the crash at 1.6k to go. He said maybe they saw that and went heavy handed on Cavs crash after being involved in two crashes in the final 2k. I am trying to find good video of that crash still


----------



## PBL450

Marc said:


> Oh but they are put in the position of having to.
> 
> Last year I want to say, on a mountain stage half the peloton did not make the time cut...including all the sprinters. The sprinters all soft pedaled and figured they'd call the commissaires bluff and didn't race. Calling the jury's bluff, they were right and the jury didn't kick them out. Because a peloton of 200 would suddenly become a peloton of 100-including the likes of Cav and Sagan IIRC all poofed. I personally thought it would have been funny as hell and a teachable moment, and the right thing, for the jury to toss them-but the ASO would have gotten hell from all the teams...something politically they cannot afford.
> 
> Should they have DQ'd every sprinter in contention in the final 200m? All of them were as much or more involved in Cav going down as DeMare was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong....not a Cav fan at all (he is much less of a hot head now than years back).


Word. Well said. They make sh*t up at random often enough. It's a major problem to me as a fan.


----------



## PBL450

T K said:


> Has Sagan's team issued a statement?
> I was almost surprised to see them in the race today. I would have not blamed them if they pulled out in protest.


Bora came in hunting for green and polka dots. They are still hunting for polka dots.


----------



## SNS1938

Handbrake said:


> It was the same opening Démare had just used to sprint past Sagan and it was just as wide when Cav hit it. At least a bike length between Sagan and the barriers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was narrow when Cav went down because Sagan deviated from his line to close it.


Yes! This is my take on it too. If I draw a line parallel to the barriers, that is Cav's lane, and it's wide enough. Sagan (with everyone else) slides right and Cav is forced to lean left into Sagan, but Sagan continues to come over until Cav is out. What's Cav to do? He found a way around, he comes up alongside Sagan, and Sagan starts forcing him over. 

DQ too much, but should have been a big enough points cut that it made it really hard (but not Impossible) for Sagan to win Green


----------



## aclinjury

SNS1938 said:


> Yes! This is my take on it too. If I draw a line parallel to the barriers, that is Cav's lane, and it's wide enough. Sagan (with everyone else) slides right and Cav is forced to lean left into Sagan, but Sagan continues to come over until Cav is out. What's Cav to do? He found a way around, he comes up alongside Sagan, and Sagan starts forcing him over.
> 
> DQ too much, but should have been a big enough points cut that it made it really hard (but not Impossible) for Sagan to win Green


and you are over analyzing and injecting a lot of movements into a still pic. Stop beating a dead horse regarding the analysis of a still photo. Show us something new, new video evidence in high-def that can potentially shed more meaning.

PS: you do realize that Andre Griepel, who was blaming Sagan, has recanted his words after seeing the video, right? And you do understand that for a sprinter like Greipel (who is not a friend of Sagan) to recant is words, means SOMETHING, right??? Yes, it means that Greipel now sees this as a racing incident. I trust Greipel more than tweeter racers and RBR analysts.


----------



## aclinjury

and here's Lance Armstrong's view on the incident, don't kill the messenger aight!


----------



## coldash

spookyload said:


> Robbie McCewen reported today that several riders were telling him off the record that Sagan caused the crash at 1.6k to go. He said maybe they saw that and went heavy handed on Cavs crash after being involved in two crashes in the final 2k. I am trying to find good video of that crash still


I've mentioned this before. Sagan barged into a FdJ guy causing him to fall and this caused the peloton pile up and there was also the head incident with Greipel on stage 3. Unless the jury says anymore and I doubt they will I guess that they will have taken Sagan's earlier dangerous riding into account before his final demonstration. 

I suppose in some way we should be thanfull for Sagan taking other riders down in two smaller tranches - at least he avoided bringing everyone down in one go which could have be catastrophic


----------



## aclinjury

here's Cav's drivel on the incident,
reading the comments section is perhaps more entertaining though


----------



## aclinjury

some riders' reaction, particularly interesting to this thread is one of George Bennett's


----------



## upstateSC-rider

spookyload said:


> Robbie McCewen reported today that several riders were telling him off the record that Sagan caused the crash at 1.6k to go. He said maybe they saw that and went heavy handed on Cavs crash after being involved in two crashes in the final 2k. I am trying to find good video of that crash still


I can't find any video of it either, it's got to be out there because they're already ramping up their efforts at that point and some fan has to have something.


----------



## MMsRepBike

upstateSC-rider said:


> I can't find any video of it either, it's got to be out there because they're already ramping up their efforts at that point and some fan has to have something.


I've seen two videos of the first crash. Neither one shows Sagan doing anything wrong, but neither one clearly shows the first touch or whatever that caused the accident.

Zero proof anywhere that I can find about the first crash being the fault of Sagan. Just rider accounts. Same sort of rider accounts about Demare taking a team car tow at MSR. But at least those accounts had hard data via strava to back it up.

No, the jury did not make their call based on rider accounts of the first accident. They were quite clear saying that Sagan threw an elbow at Cav, crashing Cav into the barriers and endangering those behind who also crashed. They straight up blamed Sagan for the crash, called it a violent action, and said it was so bad they just had to kick him out for it. As one of the insiders said, they had to show that they were the boss and they were in control. They wanted to make a statement. They were afraid of not kicking him out. They never even bothered to rewatch the footage in slow motion, they were spending all of their time worried about their image and not the facts.


----------



## Wetworks

SNS1938 said:


> Yes! This is my take on it too. If I draw a line parallel to the barriers, that is Cav's lane, and it's wide enough. Sagan (with everyone else) slides right and Cav is forced to lean left into Sagan, but Sagan continues to come over until Cav is out. What's Cav to do? He found a way around, he comes up alongside Sagan, and Sagan starts forcing him over.
> 
> DQ too much, but should have been a big enough points cut that it made it really hard (but not Impossible) for Sagan to win Green


It's the incorrect take. The reason Sagan starts to "come over" towards Cav is because Bouhani begins to lean into Sagan in reaction to Demare taking Bouhani's line. Very clear to see in the front-on video. At that point it's on Cav to come to terms with having a bad line or throw caution to the wind. He chose the latter. 

As for everyone still insisting Sagan threw an elbow:


----------



## aclinjury

Wetworks said:


> It's the incorrect take. The reason Sagan starts to "come over" towards Cav is because Bouhani begins to lean into Sagan in reaction to Demare taking Bouhani's line. Very clear to see in the front-on video. At that point it's on Cav to come to terms with having a bad line or throw caution to the wind. He chose the latter.
> 
> As for everyone still insisting Sagan threw an elbow:


that's pretty damn convincing evidence regarding the fake elbow by Sagan


----------



## coldash

Can't see why anybody is giving Cavandish a hard time on this unless they are mentally impaired. He has been completely straight and neutral on this and has had a good conversation with Sagan.

Meanwhile the lawyers are getting involved. Sagan's team to appeal to CAS

https://www.bora-hansgrohe.com/en/n...de-france-ausschluss-von-peter-sagan/10983587


----------



## aclinjury

MMsRepBike said:


> I've seen two videos of the first crash. Neither one shows Sagan doing anything wrong, but neither one clearly shows the first touch or whatever that caused the accident.
> 
> Zero proof anywhere that I can find about the first crash being the fault of Sagan. Just rider accounts. Same sort of rider accounts about Demare taking a team car tow at MSR. But at least those accounts had hard data via strava to back it up.
> 
> No, the jury did not make their call based on rider accounts of the first accident. They were quite clear saying that Sagan threw an elbow at Cav, crashing Cav into the barriers and endangering those behind who also crashed. They straight up blamed Sagan for the crash, called it a violent action, and said it was so bad they just had to kick him out for it. As one of the insiders said, they had to show that they were the boss and they were in control. They wanted to make a statement. They were afraid of not kicking him out. They never even bothered to rewatch the footage in slow motion, they were spending all of their time worried about their image and not the facts.


Dimension Data = big sponsor, $$$ talks
Demare = French boy is now has to be a Green jersey favorite

Follow the money, follow the homerism, and the reasoned decision to kick Sagan suddenly becomes clear. Further video analysis at this point is just for academic fun, for internet people to argue, for fun.


----------



## coldash

aclinjury said:


> Dimension Data = big sponsor, $$$ talks
> Demare = French boy is now has to be a Green jersey favorite
> 
> Follow the money, follow the homerism, and the reasoned decision to kick Sagan suddenly becomes clear. Further video analysis at this point is just for academic fun, for internet people to argue, for fun.


That is complete garbage.

What do DD have to gain from Sagan's expulsion - nothing. 

Why would the jury (Belgian) favor FdJ (French)? (Unless you are the type of person who thinks that "they are all the same")

Why would ASO alienate any sponsors when ASO are driven by revenue income?

Why would the UCI court controversy and potentially put people off the sport?

They may/may not have made a bad call but this conspiracy crap is on the Moon landings level.


----------



## MMsRepBike

coldash said:


> Can't see why anybody is giving Cavandish a hard time on this unless they are mentally impaired. He has been completely straight and neutral on this and has had a good conversation with Sagan.
> 
> Meanwhile the lawyers are getting involved. Sagan's team to appeal to CAS
> 
> https://www.bora-hansgrohe.com/en/n...de-france-ausschluss-von-peter-sagan/10983587


Bullshit. He's being his normal self. Not taking responsibility for his actions, blaming others, causing problems.

Sagan never hit him with an elbow. That's a fact. But all the while he keeps on complaining about the elbow. His DS going crazy saying that Cav was elbowed in the head. Bullshit.

He tries to play both sides of the fence, he's a little scum. "I was just on Demare's wheel and Peter just came over. I know what gaps I can fit in. I get on with Peter, I'd like to know why he threw the elbow is all."

He and his DS made up a bullshit story and he knows it. He also tries saying that he knew immediately that Peter wasn't doing anything malicious. He in the next breath claims that he was hit by an elbow that Peter threw at him and he's just curious why Peter would do that to him because they're friends.

He's a lying little two faced baby that can't take responsibility for himself. He's always been this way and he hasn't changed. Nobody cares that he's 32 or whatever. Nobody cares that he has a family. Nobody cares that he won 30 tour stages. That does not make him a grown up, he's still a petulant child. People can see this clearly.

You must be the one that's mentally impaired not being able to see this.


----------



## JSR

I'm not on the jury, but it looked to me like nothing more than the ol' argey-bargey, as the Aussies call it.

Speaking of Aussies, Robbie McEwen is not much bigger than Cav. Of his many sprints involving contact with other riders I don't remember him ever ending up in the barrier. A lot of other guys biffed, but not Robbie. 

However correct the jury ruling may be, I'll bet Cavendish regrets taking that line.


----------



## coldash

MMsRepBike said:


> Bullshit. He's being his normal self. Not taking responsibility for his actions, blaming others, causing problems.
> 
> Sagan never hit him with an elbow. That's a fact. But all the while he keeps on complaining about the elbow. His DS going crazy saying that Cav was elbowed in the head. Bullshit.
> 
> He tries to play both sides of the fence, he's a little scum. "I was just on Demare's wheel and Peter just came over. I know what gaps I can fit in. I get on with Peter, I'd like to know why he threw the elbow is all."
> 
> He and his DS made up a bullshit story and he knows it. He also tries saying that he knew immediately that Peter wasn't doing anything malicious. He in the next breath claims that he was hit by an elbow that Peter threw at him and he's just curious why Peter would do that to him because they're friends.
> 
> He's a lying little two faced baby that can't take responsibility for himself. He's always been this way and he hasn't changed. Nobody cares that he's 32 or whatever. Nobody cares that he has a family. Nobody cares that he won 30 tour stages. That does not make him a grown up, he's still a petulant child. People can see this clearly.
> 
> You must be the one that's mentally impaired not being able to see this.


Have you stop taking your meds? Watch that BP as well.

Cavendish and his team had no access to the jury before the decision so can't have influenced them. Neither did Sagan and his team but that is another matter

I don't think the comments on the Cavendish video are made by Sagan or even general Cycling fans. 

Sorry, maybe I should have added a few more "Bullshit"s 

BTW. Care to comment on Sagan's head butt on Greipel or Sagan bringing down the FdJ guy at 1.5Km to go. I expect they and their DSs were also making it up!


----------



## aclinjury

T K said:


> I think you are spot on ACL.


i'm not holding my breath for ASO (ugh, I mean UCI) to give us their explanations. They're keeping quiet because they know they had (intentionally) made a bad bs call on Sagan.


----------



## aclinjury

coldash said:


> That is complete garbage.
> 
> What do DD have to gain from Sagan's expulsion - nothing.
> 
> Why would the jury (Belgian) favor FdJ (French)? (Unless you are the type of person who thinks that "they are all the same")
> 
> Why would ASO alienate any sponsors when ASO are driven by revenue income?
> 
> Why would the UCI court controversy and potentially put people off the sport?
> 
> They may/may not have made a bad call but this conspiracy crap is on the Moon landings level.


Wake up. Let's get one thing straight here. They made a BAD CALL. Don't try to sugarcoat it with words like "may or may not". By now, it's a bad call, and I'm going by what the current pro's and ex pro's say. Do you agree that I should value Greipel opinion more than your own?

ASO is taking a gamble and hoping that this one time bad call decision will not lose them any fans. After all, what the hell are cycling going to watch if they don't watch the TdF??? For cycling fans, TdF is it, it's the dog sh*t. And despite some folks throwing a fist in protest about the bad call, they'll still be watching TdF, oh yeah.


----------



## coldash

aclinjury said:


> Wake up. Let's get one thing straight here. They made a BAD CALL. Don't try to sugarcoat it with words like "may or may not". By now, it's a bad call, and I'm going by what the current pro's and ex pro's say. Do you agree that I should value Greipel opinion more than your own?
> 
> ASO is taking a gamble and hoping that this one time bad call decision will not lose them any fans. After all, what the hell are cycling going to watch if they don't watch the TdF??? For cycling fans, TdF is it, it's the dog sh*t. And despite some folks throwing a fist in protest about the bad call, they'll still be watching TdF, oh yeah.


I'll await the CAS decision on this. Your opinion is an opinion not a fact. Other (ex)pros don't dispute that a sanction was called for; they dispute the severity of the sanction.

I repeat the question. What is in it for the UCI and ASO other than a loss of revenue?

The decision may / may not be a bad call but to call it premeditated and suggest a conspiracy is just nonsense

UPDATE. CAS have rejected the Bora-Hansgrohe / Sagan appeal

CAS reject Bora-Hansgrohe appeal to return Sagan to Tour de France | Cyclingnews.com


----------



## Rashadabd

coldash said:


> I'll await the CAS decision on this. Your opinion is an opinion not a fact. Other (ex)pros don't dispute that a sanction was called for; they dispute the severity of the sanction.
> 
> I repeat the question. What is in it for the UCI and ASO other than a loss of revenue?
> 
> The decision may / may not be a bad call but to call it premeditated and suggest a conspiracy is just nonsense
> 
> UPDATE. CAS have rejected the Bora-Hansgrohe / Sagan appeal
> 
> CAS reject Bora-Hansgrohe appeal to return Sagan to Tour de France | Cyclingnews.com


UPDATE: CAS rejects Bora-Hansgrohe appeal of Sagan expulsion | VeloNews.com


----------



## tommybike

coldash said:


> I'll await the CAS decision on this. Your opinion is an opinion not a fact. Other (ex)pros don't dispute that a sanction was called for; they dispute the severity of the sanction.
> 
> I repeat the question. What is in it for the UCI and ASO other than a loss of revenue?
> 
> The decision may / may not be a bad call but to call it premeditated and suggest a conspiracy is just nonsense
> 
> UPDATE. CAS have rejected the Bora-Hansgrohe / Sagan appeal
> 
> CAS reject Bora-Hansgrohe appeal to return Sagan to Tour de France | Cyclingnews.com


I agree, tough to figure out what is in it for them. But also tough to rationalize the call unless there is. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## aclinjury

coldash said:


> I'll await the CAS decision on this. Your opinion is an opinion not a fact. *Other (ex)pros don't dispute that a sanction was called for; they dispute the severity of the sanction.*
> 
> I repeat the question. What is in it for the UCI and ASO other than a loss of revenue?
> 
> The decision may / may not be a bad call but to call it premeditated and suggest a conspiracy is just nonsense
> 
> UPDATE. CAS have rejected the Bora-Hansgrohe / Sagan appeal
> 
> CAS reject Bora-Hansgrohe appeal to return Sagan to Tour de France | Cyclingnews.com


what the hell have we been debating about again? Are we still debating who's at fault here at this point? Don't you think we've past that stage now? Sheesh. Every guy who has ever voiced their opinion pretty damn much say both guys were at fault and that's racing incident. Of course we're talking about whether the disqualificaiton of Sagan was warranted. Am I missing anything?

As to your repeated question, well I don't know their revenues. Do you know their revenues and whether this would affect them? I certainly don't know. What I do know is that the TdF organizers have been desparately wanting a French champion on a French team in any way shape or form they can get. Along comes Demare on FDJ, a French team, a Green favorite with Sagan out of the pic.

Don't you think it's pretty damning that we haven't heard of the official explanation from the UCI? Oh yeah, I'd like to hear how they judge this incident in light of other past racing incidents. Remember, the jury already made their main ground that "Sagan threw the elbow out causing Cav to fall"... They made that as their solid initial decision to disqualify him eh. But upon further review, it looks like it ain't the elbow at all, in fact if anything it was Cav's brake hood that cause Sagan's elbow to fly out. Yea, pretty effi'n hard for the jury to recant their original accusation now eh. Better to just keep their mouth shut and let this storm blow thru. Pretty stupid premature decision to DQ don't you think? So how is this even a good call (based on your stance that it "may or may not be bad" as you like to leave room for error in case it still may be a good call).


----------



## KoroninK

I'm still of the opinion there should have been a penalty, but tossing him was going over board. As for what the UCI/ASO gets from it who knows. As for loss of fans most of Valverde's fans currently aren't watching the Tour as it is, so they had already lost a portion of fans through not having a safe TT course.


----------



## arshak

Pussification of Pro racing proceeds at a rapid clip. Soon we will be watching the Pro Women's race series for real action.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SFTifoso

Sagan/Bora should sue the UCI and ASO for straight money. Without peter Sagan in the tour both parties lost money, and need to be made whole. With the video evidence, they have a pretty solid case. Make those *******s look like the idiots they are; they can't follow their own rules.

Also with the FDJ sprinter, I can totally see ASO and the UCI trying to help him get the green jersey. Revenue wise it would be huge for both organizations to finally have a French champion. Remember the UCI is the same org that looked the other way during the Armstrong era.


----------



## Dresden

Take a look at this(it's not my webpage, btw. I saw it on reddit):

https://m.imgur.com/iZIngF8

Demare moves left to avoid drain cover. Cavendish hits it. Loses balance. Hooks Sagan's arm with his brake hood. The third video at the link shows it pretty well(narration isn't in English though.)


Sorry, it's actually the 2nd video. The google link doesn't really count as a video.


----------



## Marc

arshak said:


> Pussification of Pro racing proceeds at a rapid clip. Soon we will be watching the Pro Women's race series for real action.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Hopefully so.

Men's grand tours, particularly "sprinters stages" are less interesting to watch and less combative than golf.




SFTifoso said:


> Sagan/Bora should sue the UCI and ASO for straight money. Without peter Sagan in the tour both parties lost money, and need to be made whole. With the video evidence, they have a pretty solid case. Make those *******s look like the idiots they are; they can't follow their own rules.





SFTifoso said:


> Also with the FDJ sprinter, I can totally see ASO and the UCI trying to help him get the green jersey. Revenue wise it would be huge for both organizations to finally have a French champion. Remember the UCI is the same org that looked the other way during the Armstrong era.




Nothing more American the suing.


----------



## tlg

Dresden said:


> Take a look at this(it's not my webpage, btw. I saw it on reddit):
> 
> https://m.imgur.com/iZIngF8
> 
> Demare moves left to avoid drain cover. Cavendish hits it. Loses balance. Hooks Sagan's arm with his brake hood. The third video at the link shows it pretty well(narration isn't in English though.)


I thought I noticed Cavendish hitting a sewer grate while watching it live in HD. 
I haven't been able to spot it in any online videos with compressed resolution.


----------



## tlg

So this is interesting. I guess all the rules are more... guidelines.

Bora-Hansgrohe argue that the UCI rules were violated by the panel because they should have listened to Sagan's side of the story before arriving at a decision under Rule 12.2.006 ("The Commissaires Panel may judge the matter only if the offending party has had a chance to defend his point of view […]").

The team argue that Sagan was never given an opportunity to give his version of events to the panel before being expelled from the race.


----------



## Dresden

tlg said:


> I thought I noticed Cavendish hitting a sewer grate while watching it live in HD.
> I haven't been able to spot it in any online videos with compressed resolution.


About 3 1/2 minutes into the 3rd video at that link is where it's easiest to spot the grate. The guy who put the video up pauses it. The main part of the grate is difficult to see because there are shadows on the road making it hard to pick out, but you can locate it by the portion of the grate that extends up the curb.

Sorry, it's actually the 2nd video. I don't know why I counted the google street view link as a video. Duh.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Exactly. As I said before, the jury was not considering whether or not Sagan broke rules, they were not deliberating about what he did or didn't do. They did not review any footage in slow motion or anything.


They ASSUMED that Sagan elbowed Cav into the barriers. The DD DS was freaking out, pressuring the jury, Cav was crying about being elbowed constantly. The jury was only considering it's image.


They assumed that they were in a position where they should kick Peter out. This then overruled all common sense and sense otherwise. This overruled the rules themselves. They freaked out, thought they were going to look like favoritism pussies if they didn't kick him out, they acted like little image conscious high school kids.


They didn't follow any rules. They didn't interview either party. They didn't watch any replays. They hastily acted to protect their bad boy image instead of doing their job. 


The jury is the definition of what a jury should not be. Corrupt, image conscious, not procedure following.


----------



## taodemon

I don't think that the act of riding over the grate caused it, but Cav trying to go left to avoid it and pushing into Sagan unsuccessfully and losing his balance seems like a likely possibility.


----------



## zero85ZEN

taodemon said:


> I don't think that the act of riding over the grate caused it, but Cav trying to go left to avoid it and pushing into Sagan unsuccessfully and losing his balance seems like a likely possibility.


Whatever the exact cause of Cav's crash it sure looks like the drain contributed. Also, it is very apparent in slow motion that his brake hood hooked Sagan's forearm and is the impetus behind the "elbow" going out. Since the jury used the elbow as the major reason for DQ I find it very damning counter evidence against the jury's ruling.

This whole episode totally killed my interest in the Tour this year. The initial penalty of relegation to last place on the stage and points deduction seemed reasonable. DQ was totally shocking, outrageous and completely unjustified.


----------



## Dresden

The video looks like something causes Cavendish's rear wheel to slide out. The grate he rode over wasn't flat and seems to me could have easily done that. Enlarge the google street view image of the grate:

https://goo.gl/maps/53V6aDZ6Sc92


----------



## taodemon

zero85ZEN said:


> Whatever the exact cause of Cav's crash it sure looks like the drain contributed. Also, it is very apparent in slow motion that his brake hood hooked Sagan's forearm and is the impetus behind the "elbow" going out. Since the jury used the elbow as the major reason for DQ I find it very damning counter evidence against the jury's ruling.
> 
> This whole episode totally killed my interest in the Tour this year. The initial penalty of relegation to last place on the stage and points deduction seemed reasonable. DQ was totally shocking, outrageous and completely unjustified.


Agreed, I've seen the brake hood hooking his arm. 

In regards to the grate its possible that it caused his back wheel to slide in combination to bumping against Sagan. I still think him bumping and pushing against Sagan was the bigger factor in him losing his balance, him being a smaller guy vs Sagans larger mass, but the grate or attempting to avoid it could have contributed.


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## coldash

tlg said:


> So this is interesting. I guess all the rules are more... guidelines.
> 
> Bora-Hansgrohe argue that the UCI rules were violated by the panel because they should have listened to Sagan's side of the story before arriving at a decision under Rule 12.2.006 ("The Commissaires Panel may judge the matter only if the offending party has had a chance to defend his point of view […]").
> 
> The team argue that Sagan was never given an opportunity to give his version of events to the panel before being expelled from the race.


I think that has always been the case. Renshaw was DQed by the jury without interview and the opportunity of appeal. The jury can always apply discretion e.g. When Armstrong cut that corner and did a bit of XC, the jury said "no problem"

In the latest case the DD DS and team had no access to the jury prior to their decision (s). Anything the jury does, it does behind closed doors before it makes an announcement 

None of that might be satisfactory but that is the way it currently is; not that means it shouldn't be changed.


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## aclinjury

Well there it is folks, every piece of evidence is out there at this point. So at this point, is there anyone who still think Sagan's DQ was anything remotely close to just? Doubt it.

At this point, it's game over for Sagan as far the TdF 2017 goes. But I still wonder what will continue to go on behind the scene though. It's hard for me to believe that this incident will not have consequences of some sort, be it rules changes, be it rules clarification, be it the review process, etc, whatever. The reaction from fans by now is almost universal. Even the staunchest Cav supporters will have to give up on this one.

On another lighter point, Sagan proved why he's the baddest of badass bike handler in the peloton. Anyone guy would have gone down with Cav. That was amazing bike handling (it hell fooled with his elbow and only slow-mo would allow us to see that his elbow reaction is one of grasshopper like movement, it's like automatic primal instinct that cold only be either innate or acquired at a young age!)


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## spookyload

This is the biggest Sagan fanboy thread since the classics when everyone spent weeks explaining how the guy with the jacket caused the crash at the end. Fanboy is strong with Sagan.


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## Dresden

I don't care if Sagan ever wins anything. It was just interesting to me to try to figure out what caused the crash. I don't even follow pro cycling generally much anymore.


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## Marc

spookyload said:


> This is the biggest Sagan fanboy thread since the classics when everyone spent weeks explaining how the guy with the jacket caused the crash at the end. Fanboy is strong with Sagan.


Cycling Jesus has lots of followers


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## No Time Toulouse

Wesquire said:


> Wait all year for the one race with decent TV coverage in the US and they DQ the most interesting rider of the event over a routine sprinting accident. Unacceptable.


It's funny how people "minimize" the severity when it's 'their guy' who gets caught. This has to be the single most blatant instance of crashing-out your rival I've seen since the famous Senna-Prost 1st turn in F1 years ago. All else aside, the elbow alone show malicious intent, end of question. If you want to support crashes like this, you should be watching demolition derby, not cycling.

Sagan deserved to be DQ'd, and deep down we all know it.


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## bvber

Marc said:


> Cycling Jesus has lots of followers


LOL! :lol:

I wonder what it would look like if the forum reputation throttle is off...


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## MMsRepBike

No Time Toulouse said:


> It's funny how people "minimize" the severity when it's 'their guy' who gets caught. This has to be the single most blatant instance of crashing-out your rival I've seen since the famous Senna-Prost 1st turn in F1 years ago. All else aside, the elbow alone show malicious intent, end of question. If you want to support crashes like this, you should be watching demolition derby, not cycling.
> 
> Sagan deserved to be DQ'd, and deep down we all know it.


Hey guys look! I found one!


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## tommybike

No Time Toulouse said:


> It's funny how people "minimize" the severity when it's 'their guy' who gets caught. This has to be the single most blatant instance of crashing-out your rival I've seen since the famous Senna-Prost 1st turn in F1 years ago. All else aside, the elbow alone show malicious intent, end of question. If you want to support crashes like this, you should be watching demolition derby, not cycling.
> 
> Sagan deserved to be DQ'd, and deep down we all know it.


Based on what??? I like Sagan because he is a great racer. But I am not a fan of any one rider. I even like Cav. 

The facts simply do not match the penalty. Not even close. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## KoroninK

aclinjury said:


> Wake up. Let's get one thing straight here. They made a BAD CALL. Don't try to sugarcoat it with words like "may or may not". By now, it's a bad call, and I'm going by what the current pro's and ex pro's say. Do you agree that I should value Greipel opinion more than your own?
> 
> ASO is taking a gamble and hoping that this one time bad call decision will not lose them any fans. After all, what the hell are cycling going to watch if they don't watch the TdF??? For cycling fans, TdF is it, it's the dog sh*t. And despite some folks throwing a fist in protest about the bad call, they'll still be watching TdF, oh yeah.


Uh, us fans of Valverde actually have not been watching since he got hurt. Now granted totally different reason, but we aren't watching because we can't bring ourselves to watch. It's too soon, esp stages where he would have flourished. What are we doing instead, watching the last 3 to 5 K of the stages long after they are over if we think it's worth it and riding our bikes and finding other things to do. At this point we are begging Movistar to give Fernandez and Soler co leadership of the team for the Vuelta.

As for the Sagan thing, yeah a bad call as far as tossing him from the race. I however do think he should have been regulated for the stage, docked points and maybe fined, but definitely not tossed out of the race. On the other hand for us Sagan being in the race or not doesn't matter and has no effect on our watching the race.


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## KoroninK

No Time Toulouse said:


> It's funny how people "minimize" the severity when it's 'their guy' who gets caught. This has to be the single most blatant instance of crashing-out your rival I've seen since the famous Senna-Prost 1st turn in F1 years ago. All else aside, the elbow alone show malicious intent, end of question. If you want to support crashes like this, you should be watching demolition derby, not cycling.
> 
> Sagan deserved to be DQ'd, and deep down we all know it.


Based on what? I'm a fan of Valverde's. Ask the guys they'll tell you that. Sagan isn't in my top 5 favorite riders. However, I don't think he should have been tossed out of the race. Penalized yes, but tossed out of the race was an overreaction.


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## MoonHowl

KoroninK said:


> Uh, us fans of Valverde actually have not been watching since he got hurt. Now granted totally different reason, but we aren't watching because we can't bring ourselves to watch. It's too soon, esp stages where he would have flourished. What are we doing instead, watching the last 3 to 5 K of the stages long after they are over if we think it's worth it and riding our bikes and finding other things to do. At this point we are begging Movistar to give Fernandez and Soler co leadership of the team for the Vuelta.
> 
> As for the Sagan thing, yeah a bad call as far as tossing him from the race. I however do think he should have been regulated for the stage, docked points and maybe fined, but definitely not tossed out of the race. On the other hand for us Sagan being in the race or not doesn't matter and has no effect on our watching the race.


Yea, the commissaires are a bunch of tossers.


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## PBL450

Watched every super slow mo and read every post, listened to all the commentary... can't get past this thought. Lean on a rider trying to overtake them on a dead out sprint at 45mph and they throw you into a fence... Deal. Go recover from the broken stuff without sounding like a little b*tch. That goes for your DS too. Doesn't matter if he did or didn't make contact with the elbow. You did something dangerously stupid and malicious and ate a fence. No crybabies.


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## tommybike

PBL450 said:


> Watched every super slow mo and read every post, listened to all the commentary... can't get past this thought. Lean on a rider trying to overtake them on a dead out sprint at 45mph and they throw you into a fence... Deal. Go recover from the broken stuff without sounding like a little b*tch. That goes for your DS too. Doesn't matter if he did or didn't make contact with the elbow. You did something dangerously stupid and malicious and ate a fence. No crybabies.


Well said!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## 768Q

PBL450 said:


> Watched every super slow mo and read every post, listened to all the commentary... can't get past this thought. Lean on a rider trying to overtake them on a dead out sprint at 45mph and they throw you into a fence... Deal. Go recover from the broken stuff without sounding like a little b*tch. That goes for your DS too. Doesn't matter if he did or didn't make contact with the elbow. You did something dangerously stupid and malicious and ate a fence. No crybabies.


^^^This!


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## MMsRepBike

PBL450 said:


> Watched every super slow mo and read every post, listened to all the commentary... can't get past this thought. Lean on a rider trying to overtake them on a dead out sprint at 45mph and they throw you into a fence... Deal. Go recover from the broken stuff without sounding like a little b*tch. That goes for your DS too. Doesn't matter if he did or didn't make contact with the elbow. You did something dangerously stupid and malicious and ate a fence. No crybabies.


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## No Time Toulouse

What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that the TdF, just like F1 and other racing organizations is a *business*, not a governmental agency. You sign up and agree to follow the business' rules, and abide by the business' decisions. Despite that Cavendish's move was ill-advised and risky, Sagan was caught from 5 different camera angles 'taking him out'. One favorite injured out of the event. As a strictly BUSINESS decision, keeping Sagan in would cause more controversy than just DQ'ing him.

Besides, I still think that Sagan did a "d!ck" move, which resulted in injuring Cavendish. If this had happened outside of racing, an assault charge would've been possible. Yes, Cavendish did a "stupid" move, but that in now way makes Sagan's move acceptable. Sorry if I'm in the minority here.


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## tommybike

No Time Toulouse said:


> What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that the TdF, just like F1 and other racing organizations is a *business*, not a governmental agency. You sign up and agree to follow the business' rules, and abide by the business' decisions. Despite that Cavendish's move was ill-advised and risky, Sagan was caught from 5 different camera angles 'taking him out'. One favorite injured out of the event. As a strictly BUSINESS decision, keeping Sagan in would cause more controversy than just DQ'ing him.
> 
> Besides, I still think that Sagan did a "d!ck" move, which resulted in injuring Cavendish. If this had happened outside of racing, an assault charge would've been possible. Yes, Cavendish did a "stupid" move, but that in now way makes Sagan's move acceptable. Sorry if I'm in the minority here.


Just not sure what 5 cameras you saw. Yes it is a business. That is why it is incredibly stupid to kick out one of the riders that people want to see for no real reason. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## Oldbikah

Sagan's expulsion and injuries to the other great cyclists on this year's TdF are disappointing for all fans of the sport. Real cycling fans understand that mistakes and poor judgements are made by everyone at some point. Even Cycling "Jesus" Sagan (I really liked that one in a post a little ways back!) is not immune. A lot of things can go sideways in a hurry when you're not expecting it, especially in the heat of battle for position at high speed. Just ask Richie Porte about this. 

I'm a cyclist at the very low end of the food chain compared to these guys but still enjoy pushing to challenge myself as much as I can. The pro cyclists that participate in the Tour are an amazing group. We all have our favorites, and I'm sure we all don't like to see our fellow cyclists injured. 

Give these guys a break. The Sagan/Cavendish meeting was a racing incident. The punishment was all emotion and not very well analysed or judged. Unfortunate on many levels. 

On the other hand, Kittel seems to really be enjoying some of these vacancies!


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## bvber

*Deja vu!*

This is from today's stage (11). Watch the sprinter on the right at 12 second mark.


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## tlg

bvber said:


> This is from today's stage (11). Watch the sprinter on the right at 12 second mark.


Yup. I noticed that. The difference, unlike Cavendish, he realized the door was closing. Didn't force his way through and accepted his loss. 
I'm still baffled why sprinters always gravitate towards the walls only to get themselves cut off. Makes sense for the guy leading. Not for the one passing. You'll notice Kittle @ 8sec, he's 3rd wheel. He breaks towards the middle of the road. Not towards the wall. And has the entire road to work with.


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## dcorn

The head on view shows the stage 4 sprint pretty well, but only when you also see the overhead and know that Cav was on Demare's wheel following him up the right side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg

- Sprint starts around 50 seconds or so in the vid. Cav behind Demare behind Sagan. 
- Demare comes off Sagan's wheel and Cav follows
- Demare blows past Sagan with Cav in tow
- Sagan cuts over to jump on Demare's wheel and totally cuts off Cav. Probably the reason why Cav's hood hooked Sagan's arm is because he was already going so much faster, he literally ran up the side of Sagan and jammed the hood in there. 
- Cav tries to balance himself by shifting left towards Sagan because he is getting forced into the barrier. 
- Sagan keeps himself balanced as well and continues pushing Cav towards the barrier.
- Cav falls into the wall, then slams into a red padded advertisement sticking way out from the barrier, which pushes him into the middle of the road. Then he and his bike collect other riders. Who the hell approved advertisements that stick out into the road in a bike race?? WTF

So basically Sagan is at fault. I love both riders, but Cav wasn't trying to take a gap that wasn't there. The gap was there because he was following Demare through it, and Sagan decided to drastically deviate from his line and slam the door on Cav. I agree the elbow was totally incidental and didn't cause the crash. 


** On another note, right as the crash is going down, check out how hard Demare shoots left across the entire sprint field to go around the Katusha rider and almost takes down a Cofidis rider. Remarkable that guy didn't go down and cause another pile-up.


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## cq20

David Walsh commented on Peter Sagan’s disqualification in the Sunday Times


> Many people consider the race jury’s overly harsh but quietly many riders suggested he had it coming. Too often, according to them, he pushes his weight around and gets away with it. The Lord collects his debts without money.


Don’t shoot the messenger.


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## bvber

tlg said:


> Yup. I noticed that. The difference, unlike Cavendish, he realized the door was closing. Didn't force his way through and accepted his loss.


Door was closing because the sprinter in front of him started to veer to his right. Isn't that a violation of sprint rule?


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## Oldbikah

Obvious that Sagan has a set of eyes on the back side of his head and reacted to Cav's line to shut him down. That's the real reason Sagan was booted. Those extra set of eyes are not UCI legal. 

It was a racing incident involving the red mist of battle, and goes back to Sagan's elbow movement which was not a malicious move in any way. Watch the super slow motion analysis available on YouTube. Sagan's arm was unhooking from Cav's left brake hood.

How else can you move your arm out of the way in an instance like this when you're in an all out sprint down in the drops?


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## tlg

bvber said:


> Door was closing because the sprinter in front of him started to veer to his right. Isn't that a violation of sprint rule?


Yes. But doesn't mean you barge through the door causing crashes.

And is this something new? No. 
Like I said... I'm still baffled why sprinters always gravitate towards the walls only to get themselves cut off.


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## bvber

tlg said:


> Yes. But doesn't mean you barge through the door causing crashes.
> 
> And is this something new? No.
> Like I said... I'm still baffled why sprinters always gravitate towards the walls only to get themselves cut off.


I've seen plenty of sprint finishes in which the winner, including Cav, did that without getting cut off.
Besides, Cav was already accelerating (faster than Sagan) via that route and it all happened very fast.


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## dcorn

tlg said:


> Yes. But doesn't mean you barge through the door causing crashes.


Kinda hard to just slam on the brakes when you're in an all out sprint and some guy comes smashing into the side of you. That comparison sprint isn't even close to the same situation. Cav had already overlapped Sagan's back wheel when Sagan came over. Sagan literally came over into the side of Cav while Cav was going faster, he didn't just close the gap in front of him. 


Again, I'm saying the punishment was way too harsh. But I'm also saying Sagan caused the crash by deviating from his line. Demare should have received nearly the same punishment for badly cutting off the Cofidis rider and almost causing another crash in the middle of the road, but nobody noticed it because the Cav crash was already happening in the background.


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## den bakker

tlg said:


> Yes. But doesn't mean you barge through the door causing crashes.
> 
> And is this something new? No.
> Like I said... I'm still baffled why sprinters always gravitate towards the walls only to get themselves cut off.


because Kittel was to the left when the moving left and right started.


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## bvber

den bakker said:


> because Kittel was to the left when the moving left and right started.


He was but plenty left enough for 2 rider widths.


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## den bakker

bvber said:


> He was but plenty left enough for 2 rider widths.


@ 10 seconds when the decision is made?


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## bvber

den bakker said:


> @ 10 seconds when the decision is made?


That's when the rider in front started to veer to right even before Kittel passed him.


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## den bakker

bvber said:


> That's when the rider in front started to veer to right even before Kittel passed him.


going left he would have hit kittel's front wheel.


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## bvber

den bakker said:


> going left he would have hit kittel's front wheel.


At 10 second mark? Not the way it shows on my screen. :confused5:
Besides, I was referring to the sprinter who closed the "door" on him.


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## atpjunkie

tlg said:


> Yup. I noticed that. The difference, unlike Cavendish, he realized the door was closing. Didn't force his way through and accepted his loss.
> I'm still baffled why sprinters always gravitate towards the walls only to get themselves cut off. Makes sense for the guy leading. Not for the one passing. You'll notice Kittle @ 8sec, he's 3rd wheel. He breaks towards the middle of the road. Not towards the wall. And has the entire road to work with.


Demare pulled the same move Cav did 2 days after the crash. Squeezed along the boards, used his head to leverage into and around the rider next to him. The difference? In Demare's case the rider he head wedged sat up and waved his hand in complaint (and Demare went around him) and in Cavendish's case, Sagan kept riding and held his position


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