# Can you have too much pedal float?



## Radman64 (Sep 8, 2011)

Just swaped out my shimano 105s for a pair of Time RXS ti pedals.They seem to have a lot of side to side float, i guess it's a good thing,but my feet move around more than i am used to. Don't see any kind of adjustment for in /out or side to side. I guess i will just have to get used to it.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Can you have too much pedal float? 

Yes; To me, any float is too much pedal float
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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Agree with Grumpy here: any float is too much float for me.

But on to your issue: While some rider's knees can suffer from too much float, it's not a common thing. Time RXS pedals give you 5 degrees left and right rotational float, so the total rotational float arc is just 10 degrees as compared to Speedplay's 15 degrees. The RXS lateral float is only 2.5 mm, so I doubt you can even notice that.

My guess is that you have the re-centering force set at the lowest setting (there are three), giving you the sensation of "too much float." But even at that lowest re-centering force setting, you should get used to the RXS pedals in short order. Speedplays, for example, have no re-centering force at all and people get used to those very quickly.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

yes. at leat for me. I have a damaged ACL in right knee. SpeedPlay Xs allowed too much float and toe pointed in, heel out way too much. With Zeros i can adjust and control the float.


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## Unknown Arch (Aug 17, 2011)

I recently switched from Look red cleats (more float) to gray cleats (less float) and found that not only do my knees hurt less, discomfort I was experiencing was probably due to poor adjustment. Less float and good cleat positioning seems to be the best route to me.


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## Radman64 (Sep 8, 2011)

Wim, you say there are 3 re-centering force setting on the RXS pedals, i don't see any kind of adjustment on mine.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*It's personal*



Radman64 said:


> Just swaped out my shimano 105s for a pair of Time RXS ti pedals.They seem to have a lot of side to side float, i guess it's a good thing,but my feet move around more than i am used to. Don't see any kind of adjustment for in /out or side to side. I guess i will just have to get used to it.


The short answer is that some people can have too much float, but most people don't have a problem with it. Many people get relief by switching to Speedplays, which have the most float of any major pedal brand. For some people, Speedplays are a problem. I don't know that there is any way to predict who will be affected either way.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

Radman64 said:


> Wim, you say there are 3 re-centering force setting on the RXS pedals, i don't see any kind of adjustment on mine.


New guy here. My first post! 

There is a small aluminum barrel-shaped screw on the crank side of each pedal. I think it takes a 2, 2.5, or 3mm allen wrench. The screw has three flats on it, and turning it allows you to adjust spring tension for cleat release, but I don't know if it actually affects float tension. You can also swap the two cleats around (left cleat to right shoe and right cleat to left shoe), which gives you more or less Q-factor (distance between pedals).

I like the RXS pedals because of the limited float AND the self-centering float.


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## svt boost (Feb 12, 2010)

I have just come from the MTN world (speed play frogs) to TIME gray cleats...I need more float definately, I feel "trapped" in my pedals.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

marathon marke said:


> There is a small aluminum barrel-shaped screw on the crank side of each pedal. I think it takes a 2, 2.5, or 3mm allen wrench. The screw has three flats on it, and turning it allows you to adjust spring tension for cleat release, but I don't know if it actually affects float tension..


That's it exactly. Takes a 2.5 mm wrench. In typical French instruction manual fashion, the photo is terrible, but you get the idea. (The shiny cylindrical object to the right is the pedal axle.)

The screw doesn't really adjust cleat release tension, although it might feel that way. It adjusts the tension of the self-centering spring. So it adjusts the force that brings your foot back to center, but at the same time, the force that resists the attempt of your foot to induce rotational float. The "maximum float" in parentheses at the end of the paragraph is shoddy writing / translating / editing. That screw does not adjust float in the sense of angular or linear displacement.

Hope I haven't led you astray. It's been a while since I adjusted an RSX pedal and I hope that Time hasn't dropped that feature. I know it's not on all models, but yours should have it.

.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

@ Grumpy and wim. Steve Hogg seems to disagree with you:



> I get a bit sick of first time clients telling me before a fit “I don’t like freeplay because my foot slops around”. If the rider is reasonably functional pelvically, and if their position is good and the amount of foot correction ideal and the balance of correction between arch support and wedging perfect, the feet don’t slop around no matter how much rotational movement there is.


Quoted from: Blog and fitting info » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

kbwh said:


> @ Grumpy and wim. Steve Hogg seems to disagree with you:
> 
> 
> 
> Quoted from: Blog and fitting info » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website


 Well, there is a pretty big "if" in there, for people that do have an anatomical issue or injury. On the other hand, a lot of folks that have problems with float also have their cleats positioned less that ideally. A lot of complaints also seem to come from people that have their cleats more forward than they probably ought. Either way, most benefit from float when properly set up. A few don't.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

kbwh said:


> @ Grumpy and wim. Steve Hogg seems to disagree with you


Can only speak for myself, but not really. I've never felt that my foot "flops around" with float or that I have "less power" with float. 

The simple reality is that float makes my knees hurt, fixed doesn't. I believe that I have only a very small amount of tibial rotation ("torsion") during the crank revolution, and that my tendons are still flexible enough to easily accommodate the small amount of figure-eight knee tracking that I do have. Why float hurts my knees I don't know. But it's possible that some of the muscles which stabilize my joints are weak. And of course, theyre not strengthened by riding fixed.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

The only float that is too much for me is when there is so much I can't release. My foot seems to know the angle it needs to be at on the bike...when walking, when running, etc... I can even ride a bike with flat pedals.


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## MerlinDS (May 21, 2004)

It was tough going from look or d/a to speed play, gave it a month, had to go back. My knees didn't like it.


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## Radman64 (Sep 8, 2011)

I found the adjustment screw (duu) i will give it a try. Thank you for your help.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

wim said:


> Can only speak for myself, but not really. I've never felt that my foot "flops around" with float or that I have "less power" with float.
> 
> The simple reality is that float makes my knees hurt, fixed doesn't. I believe that I have only a very small amount of tibial rotation ("torsion") during the crank revolution, and that my tendons are still flexible enough to easily accommodate the small amount of figure-eight knee tracking that I do have. Why float hurts my knees I don't know. But it's possible that some of the muscles which stabilize my joints are weak. And of course, theyre not strengthened by riding fixed.


I hope someone knowledgable on this subject can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression that the tibial rotation only occurs within the last 10 degrees or so of knee extention. If that's true, this should not even be an issue when the rider is properly positioned.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

marathon marke said:


> New guy here. My first post!
> 
> There is a small aluminum barrel-shaped screw on the crank side of each pedal. I think it takes a 2, 2.5, or 3mm allen wrench. The screw has three flats on it, and turning it allows you to adjust spring tension for cleat release, but I don't know if it actually affects float tension. You can also swap the two cleats around (left cleat to right shoe and right cleat to left shoe), which gives you more or less Q-factor (distance between pedals).
> 
> I like the RXS pedals because of the limited float AND the self-centering float.


And my knees and hips hated them for the same reason.

Here  is a good article comparing pedals.

I am now running Speedplay Zero's after trying the Speedplay X's.
I have dialled in the float and position I want with the Zero's.
I could not get used to the massive amount of float the X's offered.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I suffer from definite "foot flop".

If I could, I'd go go back to a deep plastic cleat, and double toe straps. Since I can't, I'll stick with black "Delta" cleats.


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## MerlinDS (May 21, 2004)

Have u tried speed plays with a huge amount of float, compared to looks 6%? I had to turn my heel way out to get unclipped, that twisting really hurt my knees, but I have been riding clipless mavic, look or d/a fixed for over 20 yrs now.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

To me one of the benefits of the Speedplay Zero is that I can fine tune the float/release point without having to move the cleat.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

MerlinDS said:


> Have u tried speed plays with a huge amount of float, compared to looks 6%? I had to turn my heel way out to get unclipped, that twisting really hurt my knees, but I have been riding clipless mavic, look or d/a fixed for over 20 yrs now.


Sounds like you are talking about X's or have not set the Zero's up properly.
Not an issue with the Zero's once you dial in the position and float that works best for you.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

marathon marke said:


> I hope someone knowledgable on this subject can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression that the tibial rotation only occurs within the last 10 degrees or so of knee extention. .


You are correct when talking about an unconstrained foot with no force applied. But tibial rotation can occur long before that when pedaling. As soon as large pedaling forces are exerted on the foot through the off-center ankle bone, the foot tends to pronate. That, in turn, can produce tibial rotation long before a knee angle of 30 degrees. The fact that the foot is locked to the always-horizontal pedal surface and can no longer evert or invert is an important point to remember.

The whole float thing is a complex subject. You almost need a 3-dimensionally mobile articulated model in front of you to see this clearly. I wish I had one in front of me right now to be able to better explain my point.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

Personally don't get the issue with too much float of the Speedplay 'X' series...

True when I got mine and rode them the first time on the trainer it was fricken hilarious, my feet were everywhere! Now my feet just sit where they naturally would, no wild movement.

No matter how hard I crank or fast I spin I never get the sensation of uncontrollable float, everything just feel smooth and tight...


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## sadisticnoob (Dec 6, 2009)

I personally tried all 3 look ken pedals. I really hated the 9 degrees (red) where I dont like to clip out cuz I have to twist my ankles all the way for the pedal to be unclipped


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## scryan (Jan 24, 2011)

Unknown Arch said:


> I recently switched from Look red cleats (more float) to gray cleats (less float) and found that not only do my knees hurt less, discomfort I was experiencing was probably due to poor adjustment. Less float and good cleat positioning seems to be the best route to me.


I hated the red simply because it was so hard to get out.

Cant be too much float imo as far as riding is concerned... As it does not force ankle movement it just allows it... But all I need is a tiny wiggle, and anything more makes clipping out slower and more cumbersom since you have to twist so far


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Radman64 said:


> Just swaped out my shimano 105s for a pair of Time RXS ti pedals.They seem to have a lot of side to side float, i guess it's a good thing,but my feet move around more than i am used to. Don't see any kind of adjustment for in /out or side to side. I guess i will just have to get used to it.


With more float you need to move farther to unclip. Some people have problems getting out of Bebops which are 5 degrees heel-in and 15 degrees heel out.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

wim said:


> You are correct when talking about an unconstrained foot with no force applied. But tibial rotation can occur long before that when pedaling. As soon as large pedaling forces are exerted on the foot through the off-center ankle bone, the foot tends to pronate. That, in turn, can produce tibial rotation long before a knee angle of 30 degrees. The fact that the foot is locked to the always-horizontal pedal surface and can no longer evert or invert is an important point to remember.
> 
> The whole float thing is a complex subject. You almost need a 3-dimensionally mobile articulated model in front of you to see this clearly. I wish I had one in front of me right now to be able to better explain my point.


Thanks for your reply. I use cleat wedges and custom orthotics to minimize pronation. Do you think this would affect the tibial rotation in a case like this?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

marathon marke said:


> Thanks for your reply. I use cleat wedges and custom orthotics to minimize pronation. Do you think this would affect the tibial rotation in a case like this?


Yes, cleat wedges and orthotics affect tibial rotation, with orthotics being the better approach in the long run. Because modern cycling shoe soles are very stiff, varus/valgus wedging the cleat (which is under the forefoot) means wedging the entire foot, obviously including the rear foot. The problem with this is that the rear foot may be wedged inappropriately. If that is so, cleat wedging could, over time, cause some problems.

As a side note: many years ago, a cycling podiatrist developed and marketed a pedal which, in addition to rotational float, also allowed free foot eversion and inversion with a side-to-side rocking pedal surface. Riders didn't buy into it and it was a commercial failure.

.


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## Radman64 (Sep 8, 2011)

Ok,i adjusted the centering tension on my time RXS pedals, less float but VERY difficult to clip in. They are used pedals and cleats so i would think it would be easier . Maybe i don't weigh enough. NOT happy,so put my 105s back on,1/2 lb more ,but less float and easy to clip in. RXSs on craigs list.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Can you have too much pedal float?
> 
> Yes; To me, any float is too much pedal float
> .
> ...


I have to have float. My toes naturally like to point out a tad. So, I have to put a bit of heel in float on my Speedplay Zeros. I used to have knee issues until I figured this out with the help of one of those Specialized fit dudes.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

With Speedplay X-series pedals it iis not necessary to rotate out to a release point. They will release from any angle by rolling your foot off. It's easy and has a natural feel.
My wife and I have ridden X-1 pedals for more than 10 years. I see no reason to limit rotational float.
My old arthritic knees feel much better on Speedplays.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Personally I think the adage that most people will benefit from lots of float is bunk. Most people will benefit from having their cleats set up in the right position without having to have float to compensate for having them set up wrong. The amount of float some pedals allow is ridiculous.


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