# EPS Stickers



## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

OK, dudes, I have kind of a little contest for you guys. The winner will receive a gold plated Colnago pin. Heck, I'm even going to throw in a Silver Colnago pin. Take a look at the photos of the Matte Black EPS frameset below. May I draw your attention to the chainstays specifically. We are looking at the clear areas in the clearcoat next to the Omega symbols. (I wonder why they put a symbol for Resistance on the chainstay, you would think a symbol for Power would be more appropriate.)

Now, I receive this frameset with the stickers on the chainstays but took them off faster than you can stay 他 嗎 的! What were these stickers and what did they say? First one with the correct answer wins.


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## BikeNerd2453 (Jul 4, 2005)

Made in 中國


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## corky (Feb 5, 2005)

PBK stickers?


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

*Very Close!*

Bike Nerd, you are extremely close....And the Chinese characters.....well.....damn.....I can't let out any hints that would not be fair....but, lets just say you are VERY warm!


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## one80 (Feb 22, 2006)

Made in Taiwan by PBK?


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

*someone with a MTBK*

Someone out there must have received their bike with this sticker on it. I think someone in Cambiago forgot to take the stickers off when they received them in and just forwarded them to the dealers.

Here is hypothesis related to the EPS. So with the MTBK, as you recall it was the CX-1, an "asian" made bike that first had this finish. Next was the EPS. I believe that the EPS in the MTBK comes directly from the far east as is. Much like the CX-1 does. There is no paint so Italy doesn't need to do anything to it. They just should have checked the boxes before they shipped out the frame. Just my guess on what happened.

The ultimate truth, and likely this will not be shocking, is that not one gram of carbon fibre on any Colnago is made in Italy. It all comes from Asia. It was definitely cold water in the face discovering this out first hand after being spoon fed the lie that any Colnago is 100% made in Italy. The ONLY part of ANY Colnago that comes from Italy is the paint. And this is an indisputable fact.

It is great paint, though. 

Wait....back to the sticker.....Made in Taiwan by PBK is the closest so far......


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

*Humongous Hint!!!!*

See attached:


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## apex (Sep 2, 2009)

Japanese carbon fiber italian technology :cryin: I choose not to acknowledge it.

Apex


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

Winner, winner! Chicken dinner.


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## ctam (Apr 21, 2003)

I like the "made in Italy" sticker on the seat tube....


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## tofumann (Jun 17, 2008)

TIME is the answer


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

ctam said:


> I like the "made in Italy" sticker on the seat tube....


you wonder how bike companies get away with that, huh?


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## one80 (Feb 22, 2006)

So if that's the case, Colnago are no better than Pinarello? It is a bit disappointing to hear, though not very suprising.

Maybe I should get a Dogma instead?


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## BikeNerd2453 (Jul 4, 2005)

I think that with the bankruptcy of their Italian carbon supplier, they were sourcing their carbon from Japan. Whether than means that they are sourcing tubes, or having complete bikes built, I don't know. Toray maybe? I forget.

Anyway, it's kind of a sad day, well, it was a sad day, when they switched. It's still sad today though.


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## Jbartmc (Sep 14, 2007)

Next you'll say my Yugo is not 100% Yugoslavian. I hope not. Scary that an EPS is more than the Yugo was, but in retrospect, not really. I would take a Japanese carbon-tubed Colnago over a crappy car any day.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/05/15-agonizing-automotive-atrocities/11/


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## corky (Feb 5, 2005)

It was gonna happen sooner or later, the economics dictate it. 

Love to know if my EP was Asian or not, just out of academic interest of course.

Thanks for enlightening us Kraken, if only to stop us embarresing ourselves in Internet arguments......


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

*Somewhere in Asia...that vast continent*

JBart, 

You have some great bikes. It would be appreciated if companies were more forthright and honest and most importantly, trustworthy when it came to their products. I wouldn't be surprised if the "Made In Italy" sticker was made in China.


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## Jbartmc (Sep 14, 2007)

The_Kraken said:


> JBart,
> 
> You have some great bikes. It would be appreciated if companies were more forthright and honest and most importantly, trustworthy when it came to their products. I wouldn't be surprised if the "Made In Italy" sticker was made in China.


I agree. I was trying to be funny to take the sting out of the reality of the situation. If the sticker is made in China, I suppose it is loaded with lead or other toxins. 

Your shop is the best, so a happy customer I will remain. My bikes always draw compliments or envy I am glad to have an ATR C50 and Extreme Power with the once-exclusive EPS's and the Columbus Master. I will pass on the C59 as it appears to be a new bike solely for the sake of having a new bike in advance of the grand tours, and otherwise it doesn't impress me.


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## Vientomas (Jul 18, 2007)

Liquidating?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Colna...Road_Bikes&hash=item2ead04b88e#ht_4466wt_1165


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## JeremyP (Apr 30, 2006)

sad day you are no longer selling colnago after this , as i've always said, C50 & EP were the best colnagos.


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## meccio (Sep 29, 2005)

Colnago has always been very clear in declaring where their frames are built. 

Maybe there is an explanation for this. I will ask Colnago in the Italian forum where they normally reply


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

So does this mean that an Indy Fab made out of Taiwanese Columbus tubing is made in Taiwan? Or a 953 Seven is not American made?
Pretty sure they are using Toray CF these days, but that does not mean it's not an Italian made frame. If it does, then Ferrari are no longer Italian either.
I know you are pretty pi$$ed at colnago right now, but lets not stretch the truth here. Be a big boy, if you are that angry drop the line and move on to something else. That would hurt their business more than slagging them on a forum.


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## meccio (Sep 29, 2005)

the issue of the EPS stickers was debated in Italy two months ago. Bottom line, the sticker states that Colnago uses Toray carbon fiber. Colnago confirms that the tubes are made in Italy by their new supplier (which replaced ATR) and assembled by Colnago in Cambiago


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

meccio said:


> the issue of the EPS stickers was debated in Italy two months ago. Bottom line, the sticker states that Colnago uses Toray carbon fiber. Colnago confirms that the tubes are made in Italy by their new supplier (which replaced ATR) and assembled by Colnago in Cambiago


So at what point do we say something is made in Italy? Does the rayon have to be spun, heated, and woven in Italy before we can say that an EPS is Italian made? Or is it enough that Toray raw, or Pre-preg, cloth is formed into tubes in Italy? We all are on the same page that the EPS is bonded, heated, and painted in Italy right? Or are some now trying to debate that?


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

OT, but does anyone know where Edge gets their raw carbon?


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

meccio said:


> the issue of the EPS stickers was debated in Italy two months ago. Bottom line, the sticker states that Colnago uses Toray carbon fiber. Colnago confirms that the tubes are made in Italy by their new supplier (which replaced ATR) and assembled by Colnago in Cambiago


I thought the lugs were now Asian...can you check on this?


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## JetSpeed (Nov 18, 2002)

Now I'm more glad I didn't put too much weight on where my CX-1 came from . . . .


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Its "Made in Italy" in the Italian definition of "Made in Italy," meaning that if a frame is painted in Italy, then there is value added, and the finished product, by Italian commerce laws, is allowed to be called "Made In Italy." 

We Americans tend to have a different definition.

And I always said that they were **all*** made in Taichung, Taiwan, in a facility adjacent to the Giant factory. The reality is that the models... whatever.. none of them were truly made in Italy.. Allof them had massive foreign sourced manufacturing content.

We don't even know who the hell supplies the steel tubes...

Fatta da Colnago.. only in Taichung, Taiwan... by Wang and Yang... At least the American brands are forthright about where their bikes come from.


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## ctam (Apr 21, 2003)

Isn't this frame the matte black version where there is no painting involved. So what exactly was "made in italy" on this frame??


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## meccio (Sep 29, 2005)

as I said before, Colnago states that EPS is made in Italy, as follows: carbon fiber comes from Asia, an Italian based supplier manufactures the tubes in Italy, Colnago buys the tubes and builds the frames in Cambiago. They also stated that the MTBK version is painted, but with a specific paint which gives the matte film we see on the frames

all other carbon frames are declared as being made in Asia.

I have no reason not to believe them. You can see several videos on the internet net which show EPS frames being made in cambiago


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Toray supplies the fiber and Torayca themselves roll tubes. There are tons of generic frame manufacturers in Taiwan and in mainland PRC that sell Torayca built frames. Heck, Torayca even builds tri spoke carbon wheels. 

I highly doubt there's this Italian artisan shop that rolls carbon fiber into bicycle tubes. That involves expensive machinery and I don't see that as a profitable business undertaking. More likely than not, the tubes are shipped over from Taiwan. 

Colnago joins the tubes and lugs, and presto, its Made in Italy! voila!

Here's an example of a store in Shandong province, mainland China selling Toray carbon tubes... just an example.. there are tons of generic no-name *communist* China companies selling this Toray carbon stuff... exclusive $5,500 frame? lol The Chinese sell Toray carbon frames as cheaply as $500.. without the Colnago stickers..

http://langdicfrp2009.en.made-in-ch...mMZQNysbMxWC/carbon-fiber-tube-catalog-1.html


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## varian72 (Jul 18, 2006)

So, in the end are we all suckers? Ok...don't answer that. I know we are all suckers for paying anything over $1K for a bike frame, but...suckers to think we're buying heritage, history?

The tubes still need to be engineered. I guess who is doing the engineering is the question.

If Colnago does nothing but slap some glue on the tubes and lugs and essentially builds a tinker toy, then it IS nothing more than a Taiwanese bike put together by Italians.

If Colnago does the engineering and specs the tubes to be built exclusively for Colnago then by most accounts it is a Colnago and Italian; raw materials from Asia. Maybe they need the Apple label like: "Designed and Assembled in Italy. Carbon Fiber made in Taiwan.


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## nrspeed (Jan 28, 2005)

There is no question about the origins of a Time. 

All this talk makes me want to keep the Extreme Power with a Star fork as the last true all Italian frame from Colnago.


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Make no mistake that the Master pfile tubing, the B-Stays and the HP chainstays all represent Colnago innovation. That puts Colnago at the forefront of cycling.

However, it doesn't mean that Colnago built the bicycle. A s1tload of engineering goes into Toray carbon fiber and its all done in Japan. Rolling of the tubes is probably done in an offshoire Toray location, and no location would make more sense than right at the location of the biggest bike OEMs in the world. In terms of volume, it ain't some suburb of Milan.

There is no shame in selling a Taiwanese made bike. Just fess up to it and don't spew that BS. 

Pinarello and DeRosa price their bikes at the same prices or even higher, so the pricing is market driven, as should be. Just don't give me BS about it having to be expensive because its made in Italy. It is not.


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## varian72 (Jul 18, 2006)

Does look make there own like Time?


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

Looks are made in Asia and Tunisia. It is possible that the track frames are made in France but I doubt it.


I have to say that with the billions of carbon bikes out there it is SHOCKING that only TIME shows you their construction from start to finish. Granted, it would be extremely difficult to reproduce the Resin Transfer Molding process that TIME uses anyways.


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

*Let me put another twist into this . . .*

Actually there is more that meets the eye with the MTBK model, because it needs to have a real nice surface layer of 3K weave. This is really important on a nude carbon frame. I surmise what Colnago does is for paint jobs like the Saronni where most the frame is painted, they select frames with lousy or defective layouts of 3K weave since it's not critical here. As long as portions of the chainstays look good.

Also, Toray CF is probably not 3K, since it's more structural in importance. Toray may make up the bulk of the CF in the tubes, and the 3K weave you see is just cosmetic and may not be Toray fiber.

It might make sense to have the MTBK frames/tubes made in Japan because the workers there are meticulous in laying out the 3K weave. If you've ever seen Japanese craftsmanship, you know what I mean.

Case in point: I once saw a De Rosa Avant frame in an LBS around 6 years ago. It was a nude carbon frame. It had the most perfect, flawless layout of 3K weave I have ever seen on a frame. Gorgeous! Compare that to the patchwork mess on a Paris Carbon, Pinarello's highest end frame at the time. I did some research and found out that De Rosa had the Avants (a budget frame) made in Japan by Mizuno. The rest of their line was still, at that time, made in Italy.

My 2005 C50 was made in Italy but I'm not happy with the 3K weave on the diamond chainstays. In addition, there seems to be some pits or voids that were filled in with resin (maybe that's why Colnago quit using that design). But hey, I can say the frame was made in Italy. Pick your poison rrr:.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

This would mean that Colnago would have put on the sticker. I just can't see Colnago adding that sticker. 



meccio said:


> as I said before, Colnago states that EPS is made in Italy, as follows: carbon fiber comes from Asia, an Italian based supplier manufactures the tubes in Italy, Colnago buys the tubes and builds the frames in Cambiago. They also stated that the MTBK version is painted, but with a specific paint which gives the matte film we see on the frames
> 
> all other carbon frames are declared as being made in Asia.
> 
> I have no reason not to believe them. You can see several videos on the internet net which show EPS frames being made in cambiago


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## meccio (Sep 29, 2005)

you have seen the new Colnago C59, shown in a different thread. A representative of Colnago explained on the Italian website bdc-forum.it that the C 59 is made in cambiago. They have been working on that model since 4 years, and in the last year they have produced 30 different prototypes and test frames, which have been used by various testers ( a few of whom confirmed this on the same website). He added that by manufacturing the frames in Italy it is much easier for Colnago to build and test prototypes in-house.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Again, I thought the lugs are made in Asia...tubing from Toray...all assembled in Colnago factory.


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

chuckice said:


> Again, I thought the lugs are made in Asia...tubing from Toray...all assembled in Colnago factory.


For those of us that live in the world of reality, this is exactly how they are made. Toray tubing may be made of Japanese carbon fibre, but all the tubes are made in China. Think profit margins. 

That C59 rear end looks awfully familiar. CX-1.


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## JeremyP (Apr 30, 2006)

are they still bonded in Italy? or just the custom geo?


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## meccio (Sep 29, 2005)

funny how The Kraken was the strongest supporters of Colnago in the entire universe when he sold their bikes, and now that he no longer sells them he is one of the worst detractors. Is there a conflict of interest?


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## JeremyP (Apr 30, 2006)

he still loves them secretly , otherwise i'd be riding his custom eps


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

He's just telling the truth like it is, which is more than I can say about others.


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## Karbon Kev (Sep 7, 2009)

Once a colnago fan, always a colnago fan surely ......


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

meccio said:


> funny how The Kraken was the strongest supporters of Colnago in the entire universe when he sold their bikes, and now that he no longer sells them he is one of the worst detractors. Is there a conflict of interest?


Simply stating the facts. And one fact is that I can say without a doubt that the custom Zabel EPS that I rode yesterday is the ABSOLUTE BEST bike ever as far as what I like in a bike outside of racing. And aesthetically nothing even comes remotely close.

Given that, the facts remain regarding the origin and production.


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

The_Kraken said:


> Simply stating the facts. And one fact is that I can say without a doubt that the custom Zabel EPS that I rode yesterday is the ABSOLUTE BEST bike ever as far as what I like in a bike outside of racing. And aesthetically nothing even comes remotely close.
> 
> Given that, the facts remain regarding the origin and production.


You're equally enthusiastic about Time, aren't you? How do you really decide on the concept of "best"?


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

iyeoh said:


> You're equally enthusiastic about Time, aren't you? How do you really decide on the concept of "best"?


TIME is unquestionably 100% made in France and technologically nobody comes close. As a RACE bike, it is the best (Boonen and Bettini would probably agree...which reminds me of something....). The TIME, to me, is a more specific bike. The RXR is a race day bike. Stiff, powerful, no nonsense. The World Star is a road race bike that is super light and climbs amazing. But as your every day all rounder, I prefer the EPS.

When Bettini was at the Palace, I remember him being asked which bike he preferred considering all the bikes he has ridden, I'll let you guess what he whispered.


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

The_Kraken said:


> When Bettini was at the Palace, I remember him being asked which bike he preferred considering all the bikes he has ridden, I'll let you guess what he whispered.


Specialized Tarmac SL2!  j/k


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## JeremyP (Apr 30, 2006)

As a race bike, the SL2 would be the better bike period. The RXR looks nice, is a great bike, but I'd have to disagree as to it being a better race bike. 

As to Time and RTM, it is just a technique, does not mean a better produced part. RTM is a great low cost process, also great for large parts i.e. boat building, especially if you don't have a massive autoclave. Does this tell you something? Weaving your own fabric from tow, does not mean better; lower cost possibly. I'd rather have it in fabric form or in prepreg form woven by toray or hexcel. Better still, get them to manufacture the tubes/parts. 

In terms of what is available on the market today, a Colnago, in traditional geometry and a colour scheme such as PR82/PRZA/PR00/PR99 is the most timeless bike out their. Take a look at the Prince, it looks dated. The same will occur with the Dogma when they update to their 2011 colours/graphic, and replace it with a new model, possibly a new Paris. An EPS bought today in the classic colour schemes will look as new today, and attract as many compliments in 10 years time. It's also a bike that looks great with low or medium profile wheels. Something that can't be said of the RXR.


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

The_Kraken said:


> TIME is unquestionably 100% made in France and technologically nobody comes close. As a RACE bike, it is the best (Boonen and Bettini would probably agree...which reminds me of something....). The TIME, to me, is a more specific bike. The RXR is a race day bike. Stiff, powerful, no nonsense. The World Star is a road race bike that is super light and climbs amazing. But as your every day all rounder, I prefer the EPS.


To be very honest with you, the last bike I bought that isn't a Colnago was... never mind.. its been 28 years of Colnagos only,,, (I'm serious) But... I have Kraken Envy... I will ride the Kraken, for sure, and its my size too, except your stem is too short for me and your handlebars are too wide... The Kraken gets me a whole lot more excited than any of the EPSes.


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## WrenchScienceCliff (Feb 12, 2010)

*100% Made in _____?*



The_Kraken said:


> TIME is unquestionably 100% made in France...


TIME builds amazing frames, and certainly does a huge share of their production in-house in France...but they're not exempt from working in a global marketplace. For instance, the TIME Speeder is made in Asia. TIME has a factory in Slovakia that makes small parts and does a lot of the pre-production on frames. And of course, TIME carbon fibers come from Germany, US, and even JAPAN. The end result is still a stellar product, but there's *no question* that it was an international effort from start to finish.

Look around the marketplace and you'll see that everyone makes these apparently contradictory claims about the source of their products - Colnago is not alone. This is because, from a practical standpoint, no bike can truly be 100% made in a single country. To complicate things, there is no universal or legally binding definition of "Made in ___", so there are a lot of funny stickers out there. Pinarello Dogmas are prominently marked with Italian flags and "Made In Italy" next to the words "Toray Carbon." Some Cinelli frames are endowed with "Made in China" stickers under the bottom bracket. Focus bikes are "Made in Germany" although the frames are actually produced in Taiwanese factories (then qc'd, painted, and tested in Germany). The majority of Bianchis are made in Taiwan (by Hodaka...which is partly owned by Giant), though most of the Reparto Corse models have finishing touches done in Treviglio. 
For me, this multinational process doesn't detract from the finished product, nor does it imply some sort of nefarious conspiracy or deception on the part of Colnago or these other brands. They are all high-caliber companies with proud national traditions, and they're doing their best to stay competitive in a cutthroat global industry. Looking at their products, I prefer to discriminate on the basis of multiple criteria - proven history/reputation, design, workmanship, warranty/support, geometry, handling, aesthetics, dollar value, etc - and not on the sole basis of national origin(s).

Further reading:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2004...qa-times-roland-cattin-looks-to-the-pros_7211

http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made-pg328.htm (read this article with a grain of salt)


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*There are some standards fro "Made in ______"*

There are EU rules governing this for bicycles. Here ( http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/04/made-in-italy-or-not-part-ii.html) is a discussion. It would be very helpful if someone that had access to the EU rules could identify the CN code for bicycles and what it says exactly about the tranformation rules. 

QUOTE=WrenchScienceCliff] "To complicate things, there is no universal or legally binding definition of "Made in ___", so there are a lot of funny stickers out there.....".


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## MarcoL (Feb 14, 2008)

*???*



The_Kraken said:


> See attached:


what does it says? I can´t see nothing,just "fiber", I would not like to discuss based on suppositions, remove the wheel, and take the picture again please.-


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## one80 (Feb 22, 2006)

MarcoL said:


> what does it says? I can´t see nothing,just "fiber", I would not like to discuss based on suppositions, remove the wheel, and take the picture again please.-


I believe the M40J (seen on the same sticker) is a type/specification of carbon fibre produced by Torayca. 

In any case, it doesn't suprise or bother me that the raw materials are bought from one of the largest carbon manufacturers in the world. In fact, I'd actually prefer that.


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

iyeoh said:


> Specialized Tarmac SL2!  j/k


alberto contador whispered the same thing about the SL3


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## manandjoe (Apr 14, 2006)

My 2 cents......

You have to free yourself, and come to the terms with the fact that 95% of all frames are made in the east period. End of story !!!!!!! 


I still bought cx-1! got the right price on it... and says colnago


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

WrenchScienceCliff said:


> They are all high-caliber companies with proud national traditions, and they're doing their best to stay competitive in a cutthroat global industry.


<P>
Yeah, so I think your scud missile scored a direct hit! It truly is a cutthroat industry is what it all boils down to. Meaning that companies will do whatever it takes to make money and sell bikes. So you either need to accept a companies what of doing business or move on.

Ironcially, I heard that all 3 of those last ebay auctions on EPS's went to the UK, the home of my favorite website.


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## Karbon Kev (Sep 7, 2009)

Of course they did, cos they were cheaper than going through the UK distributor. As well as PBK, 'Shiny Bikes' are also selling the EPS cheaper than PBK even ...


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