# Sagan is motorpacing his way to a win again



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

So I get they get help getting back on after a crash. It burns my butt to see Sagan stand around and get comfy with no sense of urgency knowing he can motorpace his way back to the main group. It worked yesterday and he took the win. How many bottles did he take on to get back to the group today? I counted four in the span of a few minutes getting a healthy sling every time. Add to that a mechanic who game him a nice push while leaning out to do nothing to his bike. Why does he bother racing at all if he wants to get pushed/pulled to the last 5km for a sprint? Try getting pulled up a climb in your local race and see what the officials do. I guess it is like the NBA players taking four long strides to make the dunk and not get called for traveling.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

den bakker said:


> so you don't think it is a disadvantage compared to ride with the bunch and no mechanical? Add a crash to the mix in this case.....


The crash was a fall over, and it is bad luck. Luck is part of the sport. Ask Cav about luck. Should he get a second chance at a sprint because someone crashed him in the last 400m? I think the rules for motor pacing should be enforced. Would Sagan have won had he not been motorpaced yesterday? Sorry you got a flat, but that is more bad luck.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spookyload said:


> So I get they get help getting back on after a crash. It burns my butt to see Sagan stand around and get comfy with no sense of urgency knowing he can motorpace his way back to the main group. It worked yesterday and he took the win. How many bottles did he take on to get back to the group today? I counted four in the span of a few minutes getting a healthy sling every time. Add to that a mechanic who game him a nice push while leaning out to do nothing to his bike. Why does he bother racing at all if he wants to get pushed/pulled to the last 5km for a sprint? Try getting pulled up a climb in your local race and see what the officials do. I guess it is like the NBA players taking four long strides to make the dunk and not get called for traveling.


so you don't think it is a disadvantage compared to ride with the bunch and no mechanical? Add a crash to the mix in this case.....


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Here's to hoping this was not a total spoiler thread title.

As far as yesterday is concerned, I did not see where he hesitated to gain any type of rest in the draft of cars. He passed them quickly and did not linger in the draft. Were the cars beneficial? Sure. Would that same benefit been there for anyone else? Sure.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

With a brutal fine of 35 swiss francs, I'm surprised that anyone is willing to risk motorpacing back into the peloton.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

no spoiler... at this moment they are still racing


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

It is what it is man. If the race officials aren't going to call it, the riders will do it. That being said, Sagan has a tremendous future in front of him, and his composure under pressure is impressive for a young guy.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Here's to hoping this was not a total spoiler thread title.
> 
> As far as yesterday is concerned, I did not see where he hesitated to gain any type of rest in the draft of cars. He passed them quickly and did not linger in the draft. Were the cars beneficial? Sure. Would that same benefit been there for anyone else? Sure.


Stage had 55km to go when I posted this. No spoiler unless I am psychic.

He was fined 35 SF for motorpacing. The fine is a joke. I am for Stephen Roche's overhaul of this rule. He ended up motorpacing his way back up twice today. The second time for no particular reason except to drop back and chat with his car.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

spookyload said:


> Stage had 55km to go when I posted this. No spoiler unless I am psychic.
> 
> He was fined 35 SF for motorpacing. The fine is a joke. I am for Stephen Roche's overhaul of this rule. He ended up motorpacing his way back up twice today. The second time for no particular reason except to drop back and chat with his car.


and you think that affected the outcome of the race? The cyclists don't worry about it so you shouldn't either. If anything, he showed some incredible bike handling skills taking a bottle on a descent with his car inches from him through a corner as his team car came within inches of another car. Kid has some stones.


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## EDUC8-or (Jan 2, 2009)

spookyload said:


> Stage had 55km to go when I posted this. No spoiler unless I am psychic.
> 
> He was fined 35 SF for motorpacing. The fine is a joke. I am for Stephen Roche's overhaul of this rule. He ended up motorpacing his way back up twice today. The second time for no particular reason except to drop back and chat with his car.


And change a front wheel.


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## Imaking20 (Mar 2, 2012)

spookyload said:


> So I get they get help getting back on after a crash. It burns my butt to see Sagan stand around and get comfy with no sense of urgency knowing he can motorpace his way back to the main group. It worked yesterday and he took the win. How many bottles did he take on to get back to the group today? I counted four in the span of a few minutes getting a healthy sling every time. Add to that a mechanic who game him a nice push while leaning out to do nothing to his bike. Why does he bother racing at all if he wants to get pushed/pulled to the last 5km for a sprint? Try getting pulled up a climb in your local race and see what the officials do. I guess it is like the NBA players taking four long strides to make the dunk and not get called for traveling.





spookyload said:


> Stage had 55km to go when I posted this. No spoiler unless I am psychic.
> 
> He was fined 35 SF for motorpacing. The fine is a joke. I am for Stephen Roche's overhaul of this rule. He ended up motorpacing his way back up twice today. The second time for no particular reason except to drop back and chat with his car.


You don't think you're exaggerating just a smidgen? I didn't watch yesterday but in today's race there is absolutely no way the vehicles "helped" him. I think he deserves even MORE credit considering he had - what, 3 cases of misfortune today? I raced with a guy last week who quit after one - he kept riding but at "riding to church on Sunday" pace. Bah.

I thought today's race was impressive and thoroughly enjoyed it


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## MRFIXALL4 (May 19, 2003)

I watched this kid last year and knew someday ( if luck stays on his side ) he'll be one of the top favorites someday. I think the Tour of California is not one of the races the top world class riders really care about and Peter was told he can have his moment. There is no doubt he is a good bike rider. I'm happy to see him making a name for himself. I don't have a problem with the way he paced himself back, they all have the same opportunity and take full advantage if they needed to. Each car he pases even beeps the horn to let the next car ahead know there is a rider coming up. So that says this is an accepted practice. I believe like last year he will stand down when told and let the favorites get their glory in the major tours and races. All that said, they say he is a sprinter, I would love to see him beat Cav's punk azz.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

MRFIXALL4 said:


> I watched this kid last year and knew someday ( if luck stays on his side ) he'll be one of the top favorites someday. I think the Tour of California is not one of the races the top world class riders really care about and Peter was told he can have his moment. There is no doubt he is a good bike rider. I'm happy to see him making a name for himself. I don't have a problem with the way he paced himself back, they all have the same opportunity and take full advantage if they needed to. Each car he pases even beeps the horn to let the next car ahead know there is a rider coming up. So that says this is an accepted practice. I believe like last year he will stand down when told and let the favorites get their glory in the major tours and races. All that said, they say he is a sprinter, I would love to see him beat Cav's punk azz.


agreed, it's almost like an unspoken agreement the teams have that it's "ok" to do. 

As for a 1 up drag race w/ Cav, as much as I love Sagan's riding and exuberance I think Cav just is that much faster. Now if it's on one of those up and down races like today Sagan showed that he's got a bit more in the legs than Cav would on these types of stages


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

MRFIXALL4 said:


> I watched this kid last year and knew someday ( if luck stays on his side ) he'll be one of the top favorites someday. I think the Tour of California is not one of the races the top world class riders really care about and Peter was told he can have his moment. There is no doubt he is a good bike rider. I'm happy to see him making a name for himself. I don't have a problem with the way he paced himself back, they all have the same opportunity and take full advantage if they needed to. Each car he pases even beeps the horn to let the next car ahead know there is a rider coming up. So that says this is an accepted practice. I believe like last year he will stand down when told and let the favorites get their glory in the major tours and races. *All that said, they say he is a sprinter, I would love to see him beat Cav's punk azz*.


Hhahahahaha!!!

Riiiight.

You can to try deny the sky is blue, that water is wet, that cav isn't the fastest. Denial doesn't make it true.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

seriously, i don't get the cav hate.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

foto said:


> seriously, i don't get the cav hate.


In fairness, Cav's head isn't the size it used to be a year or two ago. That is where a fair bit of it comes from. It is fine being brilliant at what you do, but if you let it go to your head...


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Marc said:


> In fairness, Cav's head isn't the size it used to be a year or two ago. That is where a fair bit of it comes from. It is fine being brilliant at what you do, but if you let it go to your head...



This is true about Cav and it is something that comes with age. 

Sagan is becoming a rock star and I have certainly been cheering for him this season... Was I the only one yesterday though that found the face he made when he crossed the line a bit punchable?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> and you think that affected the outcome of the race? The cyclists don't worry about it so you shouldn't either. If anything, he showed some incredible bike handling skills taking a bottle on a descent with his car inches from him through a corner as his team car came within inches of another car. Kid has some stones.


[SARCASM]
I think we need to make sure that we have more randomness thrown in the races. Too many races and stages are NOT decided by mechanicals and crashes (some are not even affected by them at all!) and I hope UCI addresses this. No radios is a good start.
The outcome should be decided not by who is the best climber, sprinter, etc. - instead the mechanicals, crashes and bad luck should be deciding the races! In fact there should be no support at all and once you have a flat, drop a chain or crash you should drop out of the race. Let the random lucky rider win! [/SARCASM]


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Marc said:


> In fairness, Cav's head isn't the size it used to be a year or two ago. That is where a fair bit of it comes from. It is fine being brilliant at what you do, but if you let it go to your head...


Interesting, I miss all the bragging and super-casual, rub-salt-in-the-wound victory salutes.

That was badass.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

thechriswebb said:


> Was I the only one yesterday though that found the face he made when he crossed the line a bit punchable?


There was a little something to his celebration.


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

foto said:


> Hhahahahaha!!!
> 
> Riiiight.
> 
> You can to try deny the sky is blue, that water is wet, that cav isn't the fastest. Denial doesn't make it true.


I think in a fairly flat run in, Cav beats Sagan most of the time. However, if you start throwing a little elevation around in the final kms, Sagan gets the edge.

I hear all these so and so is the fastest and I'd like to see so and so beat such and such. Personally, that's one of the reasons I like the sprints so much. The riders spend 150-220km shaking out what's going to go down in the final 500m. While drag race finishes are exciting, I like having some interesting terrain (no mountains, maybe a cat V-IV) not far from the line. Maybe a couple bumps along the way too. Then who is going to be the fastest will be more up in the air.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

wtfbbq said:


> I think in a fairly flat run in, Cav beats Sagan most of the time. However, if you start throwing a little elevation around in the final kms, Sagan gets the edge.
> 
> I hear all these so and so is the fastest and I'd like to see so and so beat such and such. Personally, that's one of the reasons I like the sprints so much. The riders spend 150-220km shaking out what's going to go down in the final 500m. While drag race finishes are exciting, I like having some interesting terrain (no mountains, maybe a cat V-IV) not far from the line. Maybe a couple bumps along the way too. Then who is going to be the fastest will be more up in the air.


Sagan can climb a bit too. He's going to kick some ass moving forward. 

Prior to HTC's perfecting the leadout train, Cav was just a jumpy sprinter. He can win without a train towing him down a long run-in. From what I understand, most sprinters don't like the forever long, straight drive to the line. 

The longer and straighter the finish, the more attacks come up the sides, the more the field vortexes, and the harder the train has to work to keep from getting swarmed. I think Cav actually said that he likes things to be more interesting on the way in. A little riser or some twisty bits string out the field.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

foto said:


> Interesting, I miss all the bragging and super-casual, rub-salt-in-the-wound victory salutes.
> 
> That was badass.


There's a difference between a victory salute, which everyone does...and Cav's slightly younger days where off the bike in front of a microphone he was more than a bit of a loud-mouthed ass...which wasn't helped by Phil/Paul/Sean/Carlton and all the other commentators going gaga over him, talking about him when he wasn't even in the stage-race they were commentating on live. 

Like I said, his head is much more deflated now compared to then.

Look at Jens Voigt. Man almost never wins a stage, and has a huge following simply as a man who can dish out punishment who isquite honestly funny as hell off the bike. Cavs attitude off-the bike was a large turn-off not too long ago.


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

Sagan seems a bit more rounded to me. He has been racking up stage wins for a few years now and he bagged the GC at a week long stage race last year. I'll be curious to see how he progresses.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Marc said:


> There's a difference between a victory salute, which everyone does...and Cav's slightly younger days where off the bike in front of a microphone he was more than a bit of a loud-mouthed ass...which wasn't helped by Phil/Paul/Sean/Carlton and all the other commentators going gaga over him, talking about him when he wasn't even in the stage-race they were commentating on live.
> 
> Like I said, his head is much more deflated now compared to then.
> 
> Look at Jens Voigt. Man almost never wins a stage, and has a huge following simply as a man who can dish out punishment who isquite honestly funny as hell off the bike. Cavs attitude off-the bike was a large turn-off not too long ago.


Whatever. Voigt is a domestique. Not exactly a fair comparison.

One of the great things about cycling is the wide range of personalities, and parcours. Its funny and entertaining to have a Cavendish. In my opinion he is more fun to watch and listen to, especially in his braggart phase, than Petacchi for example. Even this year his interviews are all pretty much the same, over and over. It's not even really worth listening to 3/4 of these guys. "Thanks to the team, I owe it to the team" or "We are disappointed but that's racing and we are confident going in to next weeks -----". 

Its the same thing with people getting all bent out of shape about Cipollini's machismo. That shiit was hilarious, and his legacy is awesome. Thank gawd he didn't conform.










This is most of these guys. Booooring!


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Cav is good if it's flat, and he wouldn't win as much without a sprint train. Sagan is probably not as fast on a flat, classic sprint but is a very good rider in more than just one type of courses. He's excellent in slightly uphill sprints, he can hang on pretty hard climbs, he's an amazing bike handler (his win in Tour de Suisse last year where he climbed with the lead break, of which Andy Schleck was dropped, then caught Cunego on the crazy descent and won the sprint shows his polyvalence part 1 - part 2) and he can do like Freire and use other teams to win... This year, he also showed glimpses of a future winner in the spring classics... He was also on the podium of World Championships in CX and MTB as a youngster, he's a natural phenomenon on two wheels.

As for the motorpacing, they all do it. When the guy doing it wins, some people complain, when it's someone who doesn't win, nobody cares. Sagan used the cars but nothing that bad, the fact that he was doing it so calmly just shows how he is, he never panics, he uses his head, that's part of why he's that good IMO.

I also agree about Cav's personality, it adds spices to the cycling circus. Pro cycling would be boring if they were all like Petacchi and Menchov!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Dan Gerous said:


> Cav is good if it's flat, *and he wouldn't win as much without a sprint train. *Sagan is probably not as fast on a flat, classic sprint but is a very good rider in more than just one type of courses. He's excellent in slightly uphill sprints, he can hang on pretty hard climbs, he's an amazing bike handler (his win in Tour de Suisse last year where he climbed with the lead break, of which Andy Schleck was dropped, then caught Cunego on the crazy descent and won the sprint shows his polyvalence part 1 - part 2) and he can do like Freire and use other teams to win... This year, he also showed glimpses of a future winner in the spring classics... He was also on the podium of World Championships in CX and MTB as a youngster, he's a natural phenomenon on two wheels.
> 
> As for the motorpacing, they all do it. When the guy doing it wins, some people complain, when it's someone who doesn't win, nobody cares. Sagan used the cars but nothing that bad, the fact that he was doing it so calmly just shows how he is, he never panics, he uses his head, that's part of why he's that good IMO.
> 
> I also agree about Cav's personality, it adds spices to the cycling circus. Pro cycling would be boring if they were all like Petacchi and Menchov!


Fill in the blank:

[ ] wouldn't win so many [ ] without the help of his team.

I also agree, Sagan so totally outclassed the field yesterday, who cares about the cars? Maybe if there wasn't a car, he would have had to raise is heart rate slightly, but he probably still would have won.


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

One other detail - there are no race radios in AToC. So Sagan was having to go back and get his wheel changed and from what I could see the rest of the team did not have knowledge, hence they were riding on the front pretty hard. It was not until Sagan was back to almost the back of the field that Oss saw him, then Oss rode to the front and called off the team. I have no way of knowing if Oss knew Sagan was back there all along, or if Oss knew the rest of the team was riding on the front. 

Again, with radios probably 2 teammates would have dropped back to help him and his needs for assistance from his team car and the caravan would be reduced. Plus, it would be safer for him and quicker for him to get the team car if he could radio to them. But the numbnuts at the UCI decided radios are killing racing....


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Eric_H said:


> One other detail - there are no race radios in AToC. So Sagan was having to go back and get his wheel changed and from what I could see the rest of the team did not have knowledge, hence they were riding on the front pretty hard. It was not until Sagan was back to almost the back of the field that Oss saw him, then Oss rode to the front and called off the team. I have no way of knowing if Oss knew Sagan was back there all along, or if Oss knew the rest of the team was riding on the front.
> 
> Again, with radios probably 2 teammates would have dropped back to help him and his needs for assistance from his team car and the caravan would be reduced. Plus, it would be safer for him and quicker for him to get the team car if he could radio to them. But the numbnuts at the UCI decided radios are killing racing....


I would like to see radios go away.


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## sponger78 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dan Gerous said:


> Cav is good if it's flat, and he wouldn't win as much without a sprint train. Sagan is probably not as fast on a flat, classic sprint but is a very good rider in more than just one type of courses. He's excellent in slightly uphill sprints, he can hang on pretty hard climbs, he's an amazing bike handler (his win in Tour de Suisse last year where he climbed with the lead break, of which Andy Schleck was dropped, then caught Cunego on the crazy descent and won the sprint shows his polyvalence part 1 - part 2) and he can do like Freire and use other teams to win... This year, he also showed glimpses of a future winner in the spring classics... He was also on the podium of World Championships in CX and MTB as a youngster, he's a natural phenomenon on two wheels.
> 
> Watched him for the past few seasons and I've been a fan. ^ This last year was my favorite with the crazy descent. Even though he is a sprinter he has a big engine so it's what really draws me to be a fan and I like seeing Cannondale winning some races. As for celebrations I like the wheelie like today after stage 3. Go Sagan:thumbsup:


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## peter584 (Aug 17, 2008)

If you watch him going through the caravan, he's not getting a freeride. In both cases the roads were narrow and twisty. He actually has to go around and pass cars. If there not there, it's a much shorter line. I would like to see riders get disqualified for large infractions such as holding onto cars excessively, but that ain't the case in this example.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

can someone explain to me why rory sutherland was saying that the liquigas team showed disrespect for the peleton when they were driving hard and then sat up. it all makes sense what eric_h said, no race radios so that's probably why they didnt know and when they did they sat up. So where's the disrespect coming from?


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## Imaking20 (Mar 2, 2012)

I believe I missed the obsessive motorpacing these last two days...


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

foofighter said:


> can someone explain to me why rory sutherland was saying that the liquigas team showed disrespect for the peleton when they were driving hard and then sat up. it all makes sense what eric_h said, no race radios so that's probably why they didnt know and when they did they sat up. So where's the disrespect coming from?


I am not sure why he would say that, though I have noticed towards the end they tend to let the other sprint teams chase the breaks down while their sprinter is in yellow. Santa Cruz was a good example. All the other teams killed it for the last 5k, Liquigas sat in and their sprinter was good enough to do it on his own. I don't think anyone can say Timmy Duggan isn't putting all into the race this year. His face is a face of pain when he is on the front.


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

Speaking of motorpacing, Boonen did a fair amount of it yesterday as well.

Since everyone does it at some point, it's a non issue to me.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Question for the Historians - who was the last guy to win four stages in a row in a single race?

This has been an amazing show of strength - Cav-like in his sprinting dominance.

And still so young...


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I know Cipo did it in the '99 Tour de France. I'm not sure if it has happened since then.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

thechriswebb said:


> I know Cipo did it in the '99 Tour de France. I'm not sure if it has happened since then.


Boasson-Hagen won 4 stages in a row and the overall of the 2009 Tour of Britain.


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