# Does ToC or Giro have the stronger field?



## thegock (May 16, 2006)

Seems like some good riders in both fields. Which is better?


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

the Giro.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

*for real? The TOC stage today was....*

B-o-r-i-n-g! Yeah, there are some big name riders and some strong teams but what I saw today (about the last 40k, online on the TOC webcast)...those guys should have been ashamed to take the pay for that performance. It looked more like a charity century ride...Bunch guys riding along comfortably joking and talking laughing out for a Sunday spin..24mph average on a downhill stage...Whoopie....

At least in the Giro, the riders are racing all the time...The TOC today, they should have just had a 4 lap crit and we all could have gone bowling or played golf instead of hoping to watch a real bike race...

Cavendish did almost get caught there in the sprint...a fleeting moment of excitment..

Well maybe we will get some actual racing tomorrow instead having most of those "stars" just phone it in..


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Gnarly 928 said:


> B-o-r-i-n-g! Yeah, there are some big name riders and some strong teams but what I saw today (about the last 40k, online on the TOC webcast)...those guys should have been ashamed to take the pay for that performance. It looked more like a charity century ride...Bunch guys riding along comfortably joking and talking laughing out for a Sunday spin..24mph average on a downhill stage...Whoopie....
> 
> At least in the Giro, the riders are racing all the time...The TOC today, they should have just had a 4 lap crit and we all could have gone bowling or played golf instead of hoping to watch a real bike race...
> 
> ...



This does not answer the OP question in any way. 
The ToC has stronger field, in my opinion. Whether everyone is taking every single stage and GC at ToC as seriously as in Giro is a different question, but the field (as in: list of participating riders and their palmares) is better at ToC.

Today's stage was a sprinter's stage. Anyone who follows cycling knows that this kind of stage ends up with a bunch sprint, 9 times out of 10. What you got is a bunch sprint. HTC got a perfect lead out and the fastest sprinter in the world, Cavendish won. Great stage. Not sure what you are complaining about.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

yeah tomorrow will suck, rain, weather, lots of climbing. next day around Devil's slide, back up to skyline, back to coast, up and over Bonny Dune, past UCSC and a sprint finish by the Santa Cruz boardwalk. Next day serious climbing again...lather rinse repeat,, boring...just ask O'grady and Boonen how boring crits are??lol


watch and ride what you like just ride.....


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

The Giro has by far the stronger field. 

These ProTour teams are missing totally from the ToC field:
Cassie, Lampre, Fuji, Astana, Ag2R, Katusha, Milram and Sky. I suppose you could add in Bbox and Cofidis also as major teams missing from the ToC field. 

The Giro is missing the following ToC teams:
Radio Shack, Bissell, Fly V, Jelly Belly, Kelly, Planet Energy, Type 1 and United Healthcare.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

AdamM said:


> The Giro has by far the stronger field.
> 
> These ProTour teams are missing totally from the ToC field:
> Cassie, Lampre, Fuji, Astana, Ag2R, Katusha, Milram and Sky. I suppose you could add in Bbox and Cofidis also as major teams missing from the ToC field.
> ...


it's the riders, not the team names that matter. I can't say Milram or Fuji are terribly missed at ToC.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

The answer may be which matters more at this time and to answer that question this is all that needs to be said:

Announcers:

TOC: Phil and Paul
Giro: Some guy names GoGo and his sidekick (?)

That should say it all right there


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## M-theory (Jul 16, 2009)

Gnarly 928 said:


> B-o-r-i-n-g! Yeah, there are some big name riders and some strong teams but what I saw today (about the last 40k, online on the TOC webcast)...those guys should have been ashamed to take the pay for that performance. It looked more like a charity century ride...Bunch guys riding along comfortably joking and talking laughing out for a Sunday spin..24mph average on a downhill stage...Whoopie....
> 
> At least in the Giro, the riders are racing all the time...The TOC today, they should have just had a 4 lap crit and we all could have gone bowling or played golf instead of hoping to watch a real bike race...
> 
> ...


Agree completely. Compared to the Giro, the TOC looks like joke. 

I even prefer GoGo and his sidekick to the 'oh so boring' Phil Liggett.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

55x11 said:


> it's the riders, not the team names that matter. I can't say Milram or Fuji are terribly missed at ToC.


It's also the combination of the two.
Cunego, Garzelli, Basso, Evans, Vinokourov, Wiggins & Millar + Montalcino, Zoncolan, Plan de Corones, Mortirol, Gavia has to trump Armstrong, Leipheimer, Cavendish + Sacramento, Big Bear Lake etc.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

Apples and oranges. The Giro teams are riding to win the Giro. The ToC teams are riding to win the Tour de France.

Well, except for Bissell and Jelly Belly.


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## M-theory (Jul 16, 2009)

JohnHemlock said:


> Apples and oranges. The Giro teams are riding to win the Giro. The ToC teams are riding to win the Tour de France.
> 
> Well, except for Bissell and Jelly Belly.



Precisely. The TOC is an easy week for these guys with little to no pressure since very little is at stake.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Giro has better GC guys, TofC better sprinters.

TofC may have better TdF riders than the Giro though.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

ultimobici said:


> It's also the combination of the two.
> Cunego, Garzelli, Basso, Evans, Vinokourov, Wiggins & Millar + Montalcino, Zoncolan, Plan de Corones, Mortirol, Gavia has to trump Armstrong, Leipheimer, Cavendish + Sacramento, Big Bear Lake etc.


GC riders.
ToC: Armstrong, Schleck, Leipheimer
Giro: Evans, Vino, Sastre, Basso.

about even - Giro has numbers but ToC has bigger names.

Sprinters:
ToC: Cavendish, Boonen, Hunter
Giro: Farrar, Petacchi, Greipel, McEwen (last three are not on top form, at all)

edge: ToC

Spring Classics:
ToC: Cancellara, Boonen, Schleck, O'Grady
Giro: Evans, Vino, Cunego

edge: ToC

Time trialists:
ToC: Cancellara, Rogers, Leipheimer, Armstrong, Zabriskie, Boom.
Giro: Wiggins, Millar, Evans.

edge: ToC

Popular and likeable riders/domestiques:

ToC: Voigt, Cancellara, O'Grady, Hincapie, Popo, Zabriskie, Horner, Armstrong, Danielson, Levi, Boonen, Cav, Sutherland, Friedman.

Giro: Vino, Basso, Millar, Cunego, Simoni, Evans, Wiggins, Garzelli. 

Not even close: ToC


Overall: edge to ToC


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Popular and likeable riders/domestiques:
> 
> Popo, Danielson, Sutherland, Friedman.


That's funny.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

M-theory said:


> I even prefer GoGo and his sidekick to the 'oh so boring' Phil Liggett.


You are crazy. Go-Go and whatshisname know next to nothing about cycling...and most of the time they get the names of riders wrong--when it counts at the line.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Gnarly 928 said:


> At least in the Giro, the riders are racing all the time...The TOC today, they should have just had a 4 lap crit and we all could have gone bowling or played golf instead of hoping to watch a real bike race...


This year, unlike a year ago the riders in the Giro are actually racing...last year (IIRC), everyone was wheelsucking and "preparing for the TdF", and no one showed up to race and win.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

55x11 said:


> ToC: Voigt
> 
> Overall: edge to ToC


no doubt.

The Giro has the better race. ToC the better field (on a training ride).


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

grrrah said:


> no doubt.
> 
> The Giro has the better race. ToC the better field (on a training ride).


For the record, I also think this has been a very exciting Giro so far and it will probably be a very exciting in the last week as well. Too early to tell and therefore I am not sure if ToC will live up to the same standard - for once, the bad weather at the Giro actually makes it more interesting - the muddy stage won by Evans was epic, and today's stage was a bit insane with the amount of flooding. 

It is quite possible that ToC will end up being a week-long commercial for California bureau of tourism, but the field assembled in ToC is better than in Giro. The gamble of moving the race to May obviously paid off.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Having some names doesn't make a great race. Only Levi seriously tries to win ToC, the other top names are just there for a training ride. Add that the ToC stages will prevent any sort of drama for the fight for the overall.

I think it's much better to have slightly smaller names but actually racing on the 50x more interesting route of the Giro than having poster boys just logging miles and working their tans in California. And bigger names is an opinion, it may be for americans but I think that for the GC, the Giro has more bigger names. Andy Schleck is the only big name GC rider in California IMO. Lance and Levi are good for marketing but right now, I'd put them under Cadel Evans and Vino as far as actually doing something in races. Having Tour riders in California doesn't matter if they don't really race, they'll matter in the Tour... and of the ToC big names, only Andy Schleck will matter in July.

For the records, I don't care much about sprinters and sprint stages. I find them boring, I'd just watch the last 500m... My opinion only, I respect different ones.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Dan Gerous said:


> Having some names doesn't make a great race.


Agreed. 
The title of this discussion is "Does ToC or Giro have the stronger field?".

There are other, totally unrelated questions one could ask:
"Is Giro more exciting than ToC?"
"Is the weather in Giro better than in ToC?"
"Does Giro last longer than ToC?"
"Is winning Giro more prestigious than winning ToC?"
"Does Giro on Universal have better commentators than ToC on Versus?"

Unfortunately, these questions are not the question posed in the title. But in case you are wondering, correct answers are: maybe/probably yes (since one race just started yesterday and another one is only 9 days into 3 weeks), no, yes, yes and no.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

M-theory said:


> ... very little is at stake.


That's a very short sighted comment. 

What do you think means more to the growth of cycling, Giro or ToC? What market is mature vs the one with growth potential? Where might one look for untapped sponsorship dollars, bankrupt Italy or the not quite bankrupt USA? California itself has a similar sized economy to Italy.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Sogno and I watched ToC and the Giro back-to-back, last night (Tivo'd, of course).

The differences were striking. Apart from the absolutely superior hi-def images that Versus brought, the Giro was a better show in every way. The guys in the Giro were racing. The guys in the ToC were cruising. You could instantly see which bunch of riders were traveling more quickly. The guys in the Giro were suffering. Did you see the look on Sorensen's face? Universal Sports' Schlanger & Gogulski were engaged and excited. They were 'in the moment.' Phil & Paul sounded sleepy, like they hadn't put the kettle on yet.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

ToC has some great big name individuals riding (Got to keep the Sponsors happy), but the Giro is far and away the stronger field.


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> ... not quite bankrupt USA...


bwahahahahahhhaha!!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

question was stronger field, not better race. ToC has more pedigree in terms of racers, Giro obviously a harder race (but not nearly as hard as the Tour de France - Hunter Allen compared power meter files from the Giro and the Tour and the Tour was substantially a harder race.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

But what good is a stronger field if they're not giving it their all or even close to it? Or if they are not in shape yet? Or if they're old and will not get that strong later in the season?

I'm not ready to say the ToC field is stronger than the Giro field. I think Cadel and Vino, right now, would spank Schleck, Levi, Zabriskie and every big names in California right now. Maybe not in July but is the thread called 'Will the ToC field be stronger in July than the Giro field is right now?' I think the guys in the Giro are stronger right now than the guys in California right now...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> But what good is a stronger field if they're not giving it their all or even close to it? Or if they are not in shape yet?
> 
> I'm not ready to say the ToC field is stronger than the Giro field. I think Cadel and Vino, right now, would spank, Schleck, Levi, Zabriskie and every big names in California right now. Maybe not in July but is the thread called 'Will the ToC field be stronger in July than the Giro field is right now?' I think the guys in the Giro are stronger right now than the guys in California right now...


This is for example the first start for Cancellara in over a month..... he could probably be sharper.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

haha.. you guys continue to argue symantics about specific thread titles/questions.

but just to point out, I've already agreed that the Giro was a better "race". Also agree that the ToC riders probably aren't giving the same effort.

BUT, you can't compare yesterday's stage saying they looked like they were just going for a sunday cruise. That was one stage, and played out exactly how I would of expected it to play out if it were at the TdF or the Giro. 

I was at the finish line watching the live video on the big screen without commentary. Afterwards, I skimmed through the versus broadcast later at night. Here were my observations:

On Versus: Breakaway, boring... cut to the final circut lap, short clip of saxobank up front, then cavendish wins boring sprint, not much details of the crashes.

what I saw on the live feed.
Breakaway, then the field leaving it to HTC to work the chase. HTC worked hard to bring it down from four to two minutes, then sat up because they still had 40km to go as to not catch too soon. Then the domestic teams (Jelly Belly in particular) then take a part of chase for no reason but to mix it up. Possibly to re-group early and cause more breaks/confusion. (this appeared to be cut out of the televised action, but I may be wrong because I was skimming through the dvr). If this came out to 24mph average on a downhill stage, well that has more to do with the time gaps than wanting to just cruise.

At the finish, I saw:
1st of the three circuit laps - HTC has the whole team up front leading a strong train/pace to avoid any sneaky breaks.
2nd lap - JVoight and Saxobank mix it up by forming their own train, appearing to try to launch cancellara. HTC scrambling to take control back.
3rd lap - All teams trying battle for position. lots of jockying, 2 crashes, one of which takes out Boonen, Cancellara, Hincapie, Haussler. Cavendish still has Renshaw and wins the sprint from a small field (after crash).

Granted, I haven't seen that many stage races live in person, but I thought the action was pretty decent for a "boring sunday ride".


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Well I think you have to go to Italy now, you know, to really compare!


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Popular and likeable riders/domestiques:
> 
> ToC: Voigt, Cancellara, O'Grady, Hincapie, Popo, Zabriskie, Horner, Armstrong, Danielson, Levi, Boonen, Cav, Sutherland, Friedman.
> 
> ...


You have scored this last section as not even close, but you had to bulk out the ToC list with Danielson, Friedman and Sutherland, which speaks for itself. I'd say that for a US audience the ToC edges it, but because of Voigt and Hincapie who everyone likes.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

Dan Gerous said:


> Well I think you have to go to Italy now, you know, to really compare!


Good chance for next year!

really though I already said I agree with you about the level of 'racing' and can tell based on the USports broadcasts. I just wanted to point out my observations yesterday to the people that were saying "25 mph on a downhill course, wtf? they looked like they were on a joyride".


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Interesting but*

I think the better question would be which race has more in-form GC riders? Based on what I've seen so far, it's the Giro.

The point raised by some posters that for many riders, the TOC is openly treated as a good way to prep for the TDF. This also gets down to the differences in the race, one's three weeks and the other is eight days. Length and parcours are very distinct from each other.

The parcour for the Giro this year is massively different from that presented last year. A cynic would say that the 2009 version was the promoter's concession to attract Lance. This year's version has gone the other way and so far, has proved to be extremely competitive and entertaining.

I'm sure that some of the riders in the Giro the last few days would much rather be riding in California. It's probably a program that Sastre, with little race miles this year, should have used.








thegock said:


> Seems like some good riders in both fields. Which is better?


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> question was stronger field, not better race. ToC has more pedigree in terms of racers,


Really? I suppose that's true if the only teams that count are Radio Shack, Columbia and Andy Schleck, but stepping back from the merican flag waving perspective, you don't have anything close to a stronger field, when half of the ProTour teams are missing from the ToC. 

As a poster noted earlier, Andy Schleck is probably the only TDF podium contenter in the ToC field - maybe Armstrong too, but that's doubtful by his own admission. The Giro field has GC riders Evans, Wiggins, Cunego, Sastre, VdV (prior to his crash), Vino, Basso, Karpets, Scarponi and Nibali is a gamer too.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

AdamM said:


> Really? I suppose that's true if the only teams that count are Radio Shack, Columbia and Andy Schleck, but stepping back from the merican flag waving perspective, you don't have anything close to a stronger field, when half of the ProTour teams are missing from the ToC.
> 
> As a poster noted earlier, Andy Schleck is probably the only TDF podium contenter in the ToC field - maybe Armstrong too, but that's doubtful by his own admission. The Giro field has GC riders Evans, Wiggins, Cunego, Sastre, VdV (prior to his crash), Vino, Basso, Karpets, Scarponi and Nibali is a gamer too.


Facts:
TdF podium 2009: Contador, Schleck, Armstrong. 

ToC, 2 :: Giro, 0

In what universe are Cunego, Karpets and Scarponi are serious GC threats? In TdF? So Armstrong is "doubtful" but Karpets is mentioned with no asterisk? 

Popo, Levi, Zubeldia, Chechu, and even Danielson have objectively better GC record than Scarponi, Karpets and even (depending how you slice it) Wiggins and Nibali. 

And it's not all about GC men - that's not how the "field" is measured. There are sprinters, time trialists, classics and one-day racers, such as Cavendish, Hunter, Voigt, Boonen, Cancellara, O'Grady etc.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Giro.


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## tedgrant (Jun 13, 2006)

just rode up the bonny doon climb in Santa Cruz yesterday in perfect 68 degree weather. 
It will not be that nice tomorrow at all
as a fit recreational cyclist, its a somewhat hard climb, it takes awhile. but I did it with 10 miles in my legs, not 85, takes me about an hour. the riders go up it in about 35 minutes.

I was on the steepest pitch last year, saw lance , levi, et al go up it fast (12mph). saw some stragglers on the back really suffering, all over their faces. It wont be as cold this year.

the giro this year is for racers who dont feel they can beat contador (evans, sastre). lance HAS to take on contador, for better or worse (I think lance is sandbagging but contador will beat him anyway) Im 42 and Im nowhere near i was 10 years ago.
we are all lucky they are both at the same time and bikesnob is commenting on both...


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## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

I'm just echoing back some of the voiced out sentiments, and based on history, Giro's been around since the likes of galetti, coppi, merkx, et al; the TOC since AS (a.k.a. T3) was governor. So comparing the fields between TOC and Giro is just one part of the equation, we should also be comparing the races themselves (since one is a warm-up, the other is an already established race, a true grand tour). In the TOC, a higher-ranked GC rider (based on UCI rankings) not yet peaked would potentially be weaker than a lower-ranked rider who's already peaked and gunning for the maglia rosa. So, Giro.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

The Giro riders are racing for a reason, stage win, GC contender or points. The ToC riders are riding for a race in July.
The races are equally important for the riders in each. If I had the choice of winning only one it would be the Giro.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

PhatTalc said:


> You have scored this last section as not even close, but you had to bulk out the ToC list with Danielson, Friedman and Sutherland, which speaks for itself. I'd say that for a US audience the ToC edges it, but because of Voigt and Hincapie who everyone likes.


Voigt and Cancellara - in terms of likeability/panache those two are enough to beat all of the italians at Giro, combined. Last time I checked they were not american.


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

Just to add my 2¢, The Giro, is a race with history and cache. It is "one" of the grand tours, the TOC has a little catching up to do, if it last... I think RadioShack is there for marketing considerations, if the race was later, say in June, I think the Shack would have to be at the Giro. These guys are all getting ready for the TDF, and the Giro might be just a bit too much before the big one in July. Will Evans and Vinokurov be done by the time the TDF comes around? Remember Lance did the Giro for the first time last year, and he admitted it was harder than he thought it would be. The guys in the Giro are racing for keeps. As pro rider, would you rather have Giro or TOC win in your resume? That being said, while I like the names at the TOC, the Giro to me seems to have the better field. And, as far as excitement factor, you have to admit the Giro has been really fun to watch this year, totally unpredictable... I don't know about the TOC since I cant seem to get versus to cooperate...it certainly isn't easy to catch.. so far.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

boneman said:


> The parcour for the Giro this year is massively different from that presented last year. A cynic would say that the 2009 version was the promoter's concession to attract Lance. This year's version has gone the other way and so far, has proved to be extremely competitive and entertaining.


I agree, but I don't think the Giro made concessions last year for lance. Its the fact that most ofthe riderst that are prepping for the TdF including the sprinters and super domestiques are at ToC. I think the Giro (well both races) benefited greatly from having the ToC moving to the same time.

If it hadn't moved, the Giro may still have the same great racing, but it would be overshadowed and there would be a letdown once Cav, Boonen, and maybe others quit on the Giro while LA, Schleck, etc. just softpedal their way in. Just like last year; pretty good racing (minus the doping), but a negative vibe left by the guys that are now at the ToC.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

dougydee said:


> The Giro riders are racing for a reason, stage win, GC contender or points. The ToC riders are riding for a race in July.
> The races are equally important for the riders in each. If I had the choice of winning only one it would be the Giro.


that's not true - ToC is important for teams with US sponsorship - Columbia, Radioshack, Garmin, Saxo (trying to find a new sponsor, reportedly a US tech company). Leipheimer, Rogers, Zabriske, Schleck all aiming for a GC win.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Voigt and Cancellara - in terms of likeability/panache those two are enough to beat all of the italians at Giro, combined. Last time I checked they were not american.


Did anyone say they were American?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

55x11 said:


> In what universe are Cunego, Karpets and Scarponi are serious GC threats? In TdF? So Armstrong is "doubtful" but Karpets is mentioned with no asterisk?
> 
> Popo, Levi, Zubeldia, Chechu, and even Danielson have objectively better GC record than Scarponi, Karpets and even (depending how you slice it) Wiggins and Nibali. .


Lest's see....
Cunego has a Giro win plus 4 stages, the young rider jersey from the Tour and Wiggins has a 4th place compared to Danielson's record of zero placing in either the Giro or Tour. Granted he has placed in the top 10 of the Vuelta but that's it and he's older than both of them! TD has won SFA of note in his career and yet is still hyped as a huge talent, why?


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## zphogan (Jan 27, 2007)

Dan Gerous said:


> Lance and Levi are good for marketing but right now, I'd put them under Cadel Evans and Vino as far as actually doing something in races. Having Tour riders in California doesn't matter if they don't really race, they'll matter in the Tour... and of the ToC big names, only Andy Schleck will matter in July.


You must be mildly retarded.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Dan Gerous said:


> Having Tour riders in California doesn't matter if they don't really race, they'll matter in the Tour... and of the ToC big names, only Andy Schleck, *Mark Cavendish, Lance Armstrong, Fabian Cancellara, Dave Zabriskie, Jens Voigt, Tom Boonen, Levi Leipheimer, Stuart O'Grady, Michael Rogers, Tony Martin, Henrick Haussler, George Hincapie and Lars Boom* will matter in July..


 fixed it for ya.


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## neilg1 (Sep 23, 2009)

^^^Not really many GC contenders in your "fixed" list.
The ToC really can't compare to the Giro for so many reasons -- prestige, difficulty, and depth of the field.


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## neilg1 (Sep 23, 2009)

Look how little of the peloton made it over the mountains today in California and one can see that this field is not deep.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

thegock said:


> Seems like some good riders in both fields. Which is better?


If you have to ask..


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