# Dropout screws with a knob- where do I get 'em?



## Auriaprottu (Oct 27, 2002)

I'm looking for some dropout adjusting screws for my road frame conversion... the kind that screw into the hole of horizontal dropouts. But I need (read: would like) some that have a big knurled knob on the end rather than a screwdriver slot. I'm sure I've seen some on the WWW, but I can't remember where.


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## Dave_Stohler (Jan 22, 2004)

http://www.thethirdhand.com/index.c...ting Screws&item_id=LS-0102SF&id=927861111587


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## Auriaprottu (Oct 27, 2002)

Thanks for the link, but there wasn't anything there that I don't already have. What I'm looking for is a screw that has a big plastic knob at the end (again, I'm sure I've seen these on at least one photo of a road fixed conversion). It's the kind of thing you'd see on a bike that has a flip-flop hub so that the rider can change over and reset for the different size cog without having to carry around (or fiddle with in the cold/rain) a tiny screwdriver. I just want the added convenience.


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## TUT2222 (Jul 22, 2002)

*Make your own?*

I don't know the thread size offhand, but couldn't you get a screw a little longer, cut the end off, and superglue or epoxy an acorn nut or something similar to it? It seems like it would work, as long as the threads were not too tight in the frame.


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## joe friday (Jun 15, 2003)

these are divine and only $35...(welding not included)....
http://www.paulcomp.com/


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## Dad Man Walking (Sep 19, 2002)

*Don't know why you'd want them on a road conversion*

The track ends that joe friday shows are nifty. Note that they will hold the wheel in alignment and prevent it from shifting forward as you ride.

The screws you are looking for are limiters which screw in from the back, and won't help to prevent forward creep. My road frame conversion had them and the LBS removed them during the conversion. I thought they would make aligning the rear wheel easier, but having lived without them I now believe that they would be a hassle, and provide absolutely no benefit. They won't keep the wheel from shifting forward. You would have to fuss with them regularly as the chain lengthens; I think that they might also provide a false sense of security that the wheel is properly positioned when you hit the stops...when in fact it might be centered nicely but not properly tensioned.

I pull the wheel back until it is tight, start to close the QR until it is barely snug, then center the wheel between the chainstays and seatstays. Takes no time at all, and I do it before every ride (since I use QR's and the wheel always creeps forward a bit during my rides). My (admittedly unsolicited) advice would be to practice the technique a few times in the garage until you are comfortable with it, then just go ride. 

That being said, I do appreciate that I just answered a question you didn't ask. Forgive me, it's an occupational hazard.


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## tube_ee (Aug 25, 2003)

Dad Man Walking said:


> The track ends that joe friday shows are nifty. Note that they will hold the wheel in alignment and prevent it from shifting forward as you ride.
> 
> The screws you are looking for are limiters which screw in from the back, and won't help to prevent forward creep. My road frame conversion had them and the LBS removed them during the conversion. I thought they would make aligning the rear wheel easier, but having lived without them I now believe that they would be a hassle, and provide absolutely no benefit. They won't keep the wheel from shifting forward. You would have to fuss with them regularly as the chain lengthens; I think that they might also provide a false sense of security that the wheel is properly positioned when you hit the stops...when in fact it might be centered nicely but not properly tensioned.
> 
> ...


If you backed the adjustment screws all the way out, then set and centered the rear wheel as you describe, and then tighened the screws until they were in contact with the axle, wouldn't that give you a repeatable reference point for chain tension, and center the wheel for you?

You'ld periodically have to re-set the screws to allow for chain wear, but this would even provide you with a handy "time to replace the chain" reference. Just figure out how many turns of the screws gives the maximum chain "stretch" you're comfortable with, and when you hit that point, get a new chain.

Obviously they're not neccessary, but I can see where they'd be of some use. My fixe doesn't have them, and I wish it did.

--Shannon


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## Dad Man Walking (Sep 19, 2002)

tube_ee said:


> If you backed the adjustment screws all the way out, then set and centered the rear wheel as you describe, and then tighened the screws until they were in contact with the axle, wouldn't that give you a repeatable reference point for chain tension, and center the wheel for you?
> 
> You'ld periodically have to re-set the screws to allow for chain wear, but this would even provide you with a handy "time to replace the chain" reference. Just figure out how many turns of the screws gives the maximum chain "stretch" you're comfortable with, and when you hit that point, get a new chain.
> 
> ...


You could do just as you describe, but I don't think it changes my conclusion. You are still using an "eyeballed" position as your reference point. And after you've done it a few times, it does not seem difficult (at least for me) to pull the wheel back until the chain is tight, center it, then tighten the QR.

The problem I experienced at first was keeping the wheel from twisting around in the frame (by shifting forward in the dropouts) while tightening the fasteners. (I use QR's.) I found that I could pull the wheel back against the tension of the chain, which helped tension the chain while helping to hold the wheel where you wanted it. I agree that properly set limit adjusters would also give you a bearing point help hold the wheel in alignment. Now that I've done this a few hundred times, I just don't think that they are needed, and the possible downside is, as noted above, that if you got lazy and didn't adjust them periodically you would not be properly tensioning your chain. Since I pull back against the chain every time I adjust the wheel, I am getting proper tension and alignment in one step, without extra bits on the bike.

Like I said earlier...just unsolicited advice, and my feelings won't be hurt if anyone disagrees.

I think that some discourse on the origins and purpose of limit screws would be interesting. My understanding is that "back in the day" (like maybe the 1980's and earlier) frame builders were maybe not as precise as they are today, and lots of builders "cold set" their frames after they were brazed. Which basically means that they bent them into alignment if they started life crooked. With this tweaking of the frame, you might end up with dropouts that were not "perfectly" positioned, and you used the limit adjusters to fine-tune the alignment of the wheel. I understand that the other use for them was to tune the handling of the bike by shortening the wheelbase for crits and stretching it out for longer rides. On my bike, I just set them in the middle and forgot about them for 15 years. They were essential for a race mechanic, who had to slam a rear wheel home and have it positioned properly the first time. All of this changed with vertical dropouts, which apparently were less forgiving of sloppy frame building technique but better in just about every other respect (except that they make lousy fixie conversions!). But the above is mostly just hearsay and speculation (as opposed to my original post, which is gospel, right?)

Adios!


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## tube_ee (Aug 25, 2003)

Dad Man Walking said:


> I think that some discourse on the origins and purpose of limit screws would be interesting. My understanding is that "back in the day" (like maybe the 1980's and earlier) frame builders were maybe not as precise as they are today, and lots of builders "cold set" their frames after they were brazed. Which basically means that they bent them into alignment if they started life crooked. With this tweaking of the frame, you might end up with dropouts that were not "perfectly" positioned, and you used the limit adjusters to fine-tune the alignment of the wheel. I understand that the other use for them was to tune the handling of the bike by shortening the wheelbase for crits and stretching it out for longer rides. On my bike, I just set them in the middle and forgot about them for 15 years. They were essential for a race mechanic, who had to slam a rear wheel home and have it positioned properly the first time. All of this changed with vertical dropouts, which apparently were less forgiving of sloppy frame building technique but better in just about every other respect (except that they make lousy fixie conversions!). But the above is mostly just hearsay and speculation (as opposed to my original post, which is gospel, right?)
> 
> Adios!


Post-build alignment, or cold-setting, is still part of the framebuilding process. It's cheaper and faster to bend the frame back into alignment than it is to build it straight in the first place. Vertical dropouts do need to final frame to be pretty straight, but it's still cheaper to do it after the fact, I think.

Vertical dropouts have a few advantages. They're cheaper, not by much, but when you are buying millions of them, it adds up. The wheel, and thus the gear cluster, is always in the same place relative to the derailleur, which probably helps with indexed shifting. One of the things that horizontals are good for is they allow you to move the wheel farther away from the derailluer hanger, and so clear a rear cog one or 2 teeth larger than your derailleur will normally allow, but this variability is not what an indexed drivetrain really wants to see. And they make rear-wheel changes a little bit faster, which I suppose matters for support-vehicle racing.

For normal riders and normal riding, it's a wash, but horizontals definitely increase the flexibility of a frame, if only by allowing fixed / singlespeed use. I also find that they can allow me to run a slightly bigger tire, by moving the wheel back in the slot to get some extra chainstay clearance.

--Shannon


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## Auriaprottu (Oct 27, 2002)

joe friday said:


> these are divine and only $35...(welding not included)....
> http://www.paulcomp.com/


Man, if I was building a frame, I'd buy those track ends in a minute. It looks like the screws are exactly what I need as it is, but I don't know if they're the same diameter as the normal dropout screws that came standard with 80-90s frames. Guess I could email Paul and find out.


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## jh_on_the_cape (Apr 14, 2004)

Auriaprottu said:


> I'm looking for some dropout adjusting screws for my road frame conversion... the kind that screw into the hole of horizontal dropouts. But I need (read: would like) some that have a big knurled knob on the end rather than a screwdriver slot. I'm sure I've seen some on the WWW, but I can't remember where.


remove the screw and head to the hardware store. find a wingnut or any nut that fits the threads (just try them out). then thread it all the way on there and fix it down with another bolt. you might need longer screws, so get some while you are at the hardware store.


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