# New word: Hincapied



## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

It's when you suck wheels the whole day then outsprint the guys who did all the work. It has a nice sound to it, like the cycling version of being knee capped.

Actually, I am very happy George got a chance to finally ride for himself. He made the most of it and it could not have happened to a nicer guy.

What I am really waiting for is for the guys who have been holding a grudge for the last two years against the Euskatel-Eskadi guys for outsprinting Ullrich on Luz Ardiden to come forward and start bad mouthing Hincapie.


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## buffedupboy (Feb 6, 2003)

*I can't make up my mind*

I personally love George. I mean like really love, like have his picture on the wall with like a shrine built around it. Like setting up a website dedicated solely for him.... well, not quite, but I do respect the guy. Worked so many years for the man, not one word out of him, not one. I wish I had half a friend like him.

I watched the stage, George hit the front for something like 5 seconds the whole race. Would I feel sore if I was the one who got outsprinted by someone who didn't do a damn thing? Sure. But having said that, if I was George, would I have done the same thing? Of course. First off, George is not a pure climber, when you are racing and you are up in a break in a TDF mountain stage, and you are probably one of the only non pure climbers in the break, what would you do?


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

That's tactical cycling. Its the exact same thing Boogerd did in 99 to win Amstel over LA; however, the situation was different - it was a one day race and I think that showed little class. George has also been on the receiving end of team tactics, if you can remember Domo with three guys in P-R in 2000 or 2001. 

Fact is they mis-calculated George, they let him in the break knowing he wouldn't do any work thinking he would get dropped or fall back to Lance. That was their risk and they lost. Phonak screwed up again by leading out George for the sprint. He could have at least tried to get on George's wheel for the sprint.

Its not even remotely close to Mayo and Zubeldia in 2003 going around Ullrich.

Keep up the hate.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Nobody held a gun to Pierro's head and told him to tow*

George all the way to the line. They know the rules and why he was in the break. His boss is in Yellow. They should have dropped him (or tried to drop him) on one of the 10% sections.

Bravo George!!!!


-Nik


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

Boogerd tried it again today. He had two guys from Rabobank in the break, sat in, and was still extruded out the back. George not only looked strong enough to win, he deserved to win. He road a good race and could easily have not had the gas to win it. He said he road this course a few weeks prior to the Tour and bonked. He corrected it this time. Good for him!


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## CarbonJoe (Jul 18, 2002)

*OK for sprinters*



Utah CragHopper said:


> It's when you suck wheels the whole day then outsprint the guys who did all the work. It has a nice sound to it, like the cycling version of being knee capped.


 Why is it only OK for sprinters to wheel-suck? Seems to me that most of the big name sprinters don't spend very much time sticking their noses into the wind. So on flat stages it's OK to wheel-suck, but not on mountain stages?


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## tkavan01 (Jun 24, 2004)

CarbonJoe said:


> Why is it only OK for sprinters to wheel-suck? Seems to me that most of the big name sprinters don't spend very much time sticking their noses into the wind. So on flat stages it's OK to wheel-suck, but not on mountain stages?


ding ding we have a winner


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## carlos (May 26, 2004)

it was the ugliest win i have ever seen on a long, long time. but he won, and thats whats count on today cycling, you have to win, doesnt matter how.


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## izibo (Jul 2, 2004)

Actually, this makes no sense. There really is nothing to gain 'wheel-sucking' while climbing a mountain. This is completely different to the major different on a flat stage.

I do understand George didn't work while they were on flats, but that was due to team orders. Once it became clear that the break was going to survive, it didn't even matter.


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## verve825 (Jul 6, 2004)

izibo said:


> Actually, this makes no sense. There really is nothing to gain 'wheel-sucking' while climbing a mountain.


Nothing physical, sure- but psychologically? Absolutely: you've got your opponent in view the whole time, you don't have to worry about setting the pace, all you have to do is put your front hub at his back hub- way easier.


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## Stinky Hippie (Jul 19, 2002)

*I seem to recall that all Euskatel had to gain...*

...was 2nd and 3rd on the stage -- Mayo was hardly a GC threat. Whereas Jan really could have used that 2nd place time bonus . I also don't recall any kind of sprint from them -- just a little last second push over the line. George made it an honest sprint - not some last second punk move at the line. Pereiro (or however you spell it) had many chances to drop back and make George work or he could have tried to drop him altogether. He did neither. 



Utah CragHopper said:


> It's when you suck wheels the whole day then outsprint the guys who did all the work. It has a nice sound to it, like the cycling version of being knee capped.
> 
> Actually, I am very happy George got a chance to finally ride for himself. He made the most of it and it could not have happened to a nicer guy.
> 
> What I am really waiting for is for the guys who have been holding a grudge for the last two years against the Euskatel-Eskadi guys for outsprinting Ullrich on Luz Ardiden to come forward and start bad mouthing Hincapie.


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## Rouleur (Mar 5, 2004)

*George the Classics MAN???*

I understand Pereiro's disappointment in losing the stage, but in theory George shoulda been dropped long before the final few meters. Regardless of how little work he did; seems to me that a Classics Rouleur should have no business surviving over 6 cols with the likes of Caucchioli, Boogard and Pereiro. If the "CLIMBERS" really wanted to win, they should not have waited for a sprint finish. 

The only way he was going to win was to drop George on the last climb. Just shows how strong George is, and how much of an all-rounder he has become. Really no surprise. GH's pacemaking has been dropping many so-called climbers for a few tours now.


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## RodeRash (May 18, 2005)

*As Bobke Pointed Out . . .*

Probably while you were in the kitchen getting another beer . . . No riders in cycling expect a team-mate of the leader wearing the Mailliot Jaune to contribute anything whatever to a break. 

Hincapie's strategy was to wait for Lance to catch the break. Even inside 1,000 metres you see Hincapie looking back to see who's behind him and if Lance is catching up.


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## ivanthetrble (Jul 7, 2004)

Looked it up in the dictionary:

hincapied: verb - doing exactly what he is supposed to do. 

George was in the break group, what is supposed to do? Help them put time on his team leader by taking a strong pull at the front? That makes no sense at all. He was doing what the bonzos at TMob can't seem to do and that is be a team player. As was mentioned before he probably gained very little if any advantage while climbing.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*damn*

It's a f#ckn bike race or have you forgot? Win, Win, Win if you can. George played it perfectly and owned those guys nothing. 

I was in a race last year where 4 guys took off in a break for the last 3 miles. 3 of those guys were on the same team and the fourth guy was alone and refused to work but won the race. The guys went bullsh!t at him and I saw the end of the race as I was back a few hundred yards. Its racing guys, the point is to win in that situation there isn't any room for pleasantries. You only work hard enough to stay away but never exhaust yourself out of obligation to some other guy on another team because he was foolish enough to do so for you

Now when Axel got dropped last year by the f#ck Virenque was totally different. Verinque agreed to stay together and Axel would allow him the money and points of all the mountain climbs then promptly took off. He gave his word then acted otherwise, but its still bike racing and Virenque was always a lewser to begin with no matter how many races he won


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## Stinky Hippie (Jul 19, 2002)

*If George wanted ...*

...he could have taken over pacemaking duties and simply slowed the two of them down, thus giving Lance more time to catch up. Would Pereiro have stayed glued to his wheel then? Or would he have attacked? If he just waited, Lance and Basso would have caught them eventually. If he attacked, Hincapie would have just done what he had already done all day: neutralize the attack. 





ivanthetrble said:


> Looked it up in the dictionary:
> 
> hincapied: verb - doing exactly what he is supposed to do.
> 
> George was in the break group, what is supposed to do? Help them put time on his team leader by taking a strong pull at the front? That makes no sense at all. He was doing what the bonzos at TMob can't seem to do and that is be a team player. As was mentioned before he probably gained very little if any advantage while climbing.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

So if I get the general drift of these posts, the a-hats who were giving Mayo and Zubeldia and Boogerd a hard time had it wrong. Or maybe their opinion just changes because it's an american doing it. Couldn't be, could it?


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Georgey won. Live with it people.


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## ScottS (Jul 27, 2004)

izibo said:


> Actually, this makes no sense. There really is nothing to gain 'wheel-sucking' while climbing a mountain. This is completely different to the major different on a flat stage.
> 
> I do understand George didn't work while they were on flats, but that was due to team orders. Once it became clear that the break was going to survive, it didn't even matter.


Yeah, wasn't it just the day before that Chris Carmichael said they tested out the benefits of hanging on the wheel on big mtn climbs and found there to be no physical power output difference? I concede the mental aspect, but it's not like there's more "work" being done.


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## Sm1Cooler (Jul 13, 2005)

*a thought*



Utah CragHopper said:


> So if I get the general drift of these posts, the a-hats who were giving Mayo and Zubeldia and Boogerd a hard time had it wrong. Or maybe their opinion just changes because it's an american doing it. Couldn't be, could it?



mayo and chump had nothing to gain when they punked Jan. He was in a battle with LA and the Euskies had no shot at the overall and the stage was decided. If it was for the stage, fine, but to grab second and third when it does nothing for you and F***s a Maillot Jaune contender is lame.

In the battle for 1st, there are no friends. Every man for himself.


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## KeeponTrekkin (Aug 29, 2002)

*George deserved the win...*

I can't believe the people (including OLN) who said George did no work... Go ahead and ride that stage with a faster time before you say that again. Team tactics always play a role and in this case, he did not need to pace or lead the breakaway. If he benefitted from the team leader's position in the race, then so be it; that's bike racing. Few in the peleton deserve a win more....


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## Inspector Gadget (Apr 5, 2002)

Utah CragHopper said:


> So if I get the general drift of these posts, the a-hats who were giving Mayo and Zubeldia and Boogerd a hard time had it wrong. Or maybe their opinion just changes because it's an american doing it. Couldn't be, could it?


No, George Euskatelled him, which was a bit disappointing to me, but I thought I heard one of the commentators state that Pereiro hardly pulled on the flats, either, if at all. Besides, where does a climber get off getting outgunned on an HC climb by a Classics specialist at 183 lbs? Wheelsucking or no, I would bet Hincapie's effort was harder than Pereiro's today.
In a perfect world, Hincapie pulling somewhere would have only made it all the better.
I also noticed often that LA and Hincapie were not right on the wheels of Basso and Pereiro, but up alongside to an extent. Proof that wheelsucking is useless on a big climb, or an echelon against cross winds? I don't know.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Sm1Cooler said:


> mayo and chump had nothing to gain when they punked Jan. He was in a battle with LA and the Euskies had no shot at the overall and the stage was decided. If it was for the stage, fine, but to grab second and third when it does nothing for you and F***s a Maillot Jaune contender is lame.


Oh, really. The twelve second bonus Mayo got for outsprinting Ullrich put him within a handfull of seconds from Zubeldia in the G.C. The two finished fifth and sixth, fifteen seconds apart, in Paris with Zubeldia coming out on top. You can bet how they finished relative to one another it meant quite a bit to them.


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## PinarelloAsolo (Feb 14, 2005)

*It's a race!*

*NO GIFTS!!!!* 

Yay for Georgie!


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## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

RodeRash said:


> Hincapie's strategy was to wait for Lance to catch the break. Even inside 1,000 metres you see Hincapie looking back to see who's behind him and if Lance is catching up.


I don't think it was Lance he was looking for. George was being smart and making sure Caucchioli or Boogerd (who both finished within a minute of George) hadn't snuck back up. It was pretty obvious when the breakaway went over the Col de Peyresourde with a twelve minute lead over the yellow jersey group that they would not be caught, much less when they began the Pla d'Adet with a seven minute lead.

I was kind of wondering why George didn't do any work once everyone knew the breakaway would stick, but on Pla d'Adet the onus was certainly on the climbers to drop him. Everyone knew he was the stronger finisher, especially with his fresh legs, so they would have to lose him on the steep parts. They tried, but George was superb and did exactly what he should have done and hung with them, but still forced them to set the pace. I was glad to see him go for it with ~250m to go. Much more classy than the last second pull around you often see.


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## Sm1Cooler (Jul 13, 2005)

*then they should have battled one anohter*



Utah CragHopper said:


> Oh, really. The twelve second bonus Mayo got for outsprinting Ullrich put him within a handfull of seconds from Zubeldia in the G.C. The two finished fifth and sixth, fifteen seconds apart, in Paris with Zubeldia coming out on top. You can bet how they finished relative to one another it meant quite a bit to them.


there was no "battle" between mayo and zubeldia. it seems to me that if they were concerned about their positions relative to one another, they would have raced each other instead of riding Jan's wheel and punking him together without any effort by one Euskie to beat the other. Like I said though, no frieds in the battle for 1st but the Euskies actions were a little more classless than George's since the only person it hurt was Jan and didn't help either Euskie, not in the battle against each other (which they weren't having) and certainly not against Lance. Those orangle pilons did what they did just for pride after being squashed by Lance. I'm Canadian so the whole american favoritism thing doesn't apply, but George was in the pack for a reason, once it became evident that the break would not be caught, then the pack should have asked George to pull or tried to drop him. You don't just let the #1 liutenant of LA to ride your wheel all the way to the end of a stage that has emotional signifigance for them. They had to know by George being there that Lance was planning to take the stage and if he couldn't, then George was going to make sure Disco still got the win.

The difference is that everyone expected George to go for the win, and his strategy was clear as day. Poopskatel on the other hand pulled a last second cheese manouver. Everyone expected Jan to go across second, even Jan since the Poopskies made no effort or indication that they wanted to go around him and since there really was no point to them beating Jan. You need to respect your betters in the peloton but alas, CHEESE IS ORANGE.


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

Then what's Ullrich's problem? Seems to me he has that number 1 stuck in his face the whole day too, but he never seems to be able to take any stages!


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Well...*



KeeponTrekkin said:


> I can't believe the people (including OLN) who said George did no work... Go ahead and ride that stage with a faster time before you say that again. Team tactics always play a role and in this case, he did not need to pace or lead the breakaway. If he benefitted from the team leader's position in the race, then so be it; that's bike racing. Few in the peleton deserve a win more....


George actually didn't do any work at all during the break, the climbs, and the win, but then again, tactically, he wasn't supposed to do any work. He himself and his DS said he got into the break kind of as a fluke, and once he was there, he wasn't going to drop out and go back to the group. He didn't do any work, because he's a good teammate, his leader is in yellow, he's not supposed to do any work, and didn't. He didn't try to hide that. Pereiro tried to drop him on the climbs, but couldn't. Pereiro could have slowed up towards the finish and could have tried to make George come through, but he didn't. 

So yeah, George didn't work, he played it right, and won the biggest race of his life. Good on him I say. George is a good rider, loyal teammate, and all of that good stuff. He deserves it for sure.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*You can't wheelsuck up a hill.*

Didn't you hear Carmichael's comments about his testing with powermeters on climbs? His testing showed that on climbs like yesterday's there is no advantage to riding someone else's wheel. Maybe a psychological benefit.


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

hincapie won, but if i won that way i wouldn´t feel satisfied with myself. while there was a chance of the break being brought back, then i don´t think there was any problem of him sitting in - team orders and tactics - but once the break was clear, and on the last climb when he was alone with pereiro, he should have worked together with him to make sure they didn´t get caught by anyone. it´s the same as the flat stages with breakaways that go right down to the line - if they don´t all work together, then the bunch will sweep them up and win (i too think chris horner wasn´t quite with it the other day). and did no-one see hincapie pull alongside pereiro and talk to him a couple of kms from the line, then drop back and suck his wheel again? i wonder how much the stage cost him...


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Anyone...*



dagger said:


> Didn't you hear Carmichael's comments about his testing with powermeters on climbs? His testing showed that on climbs like yesterday's there is no advantage to riding someone else's wheel. Maybe a psychological benefit.


Anyone who has ever done a race in the hills or anywhere for that matter, knows that going uphill, there is a definite advantage to following a strong wheel / rider. Might not be physiological, but in the head, there is plenty of a benefit.


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## RocketDog (Apr 9, 2005)

dagger said:


> Didn't you hear Carmichael's comments about his testing with powermeters on climbs? His testing showed that on climbs like yesterday's there is no advantage to riding someone else's wheel. Maybe a psychological benefit.


NO, as in none, physiological benefit? I find this very hard to believe. Never trust anyone who speaks in absolutes.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*I guess...*



Live Steam said:


> Again, why hasn't Ullrich been able to use that to his advantage in six Tours of following LA up every Col in France?


I guess in addition to what I saying before, you also have to be strong enough to follow said wheel. If you don't have the power, or the stamina, or combination of the 2, then following wheels doesn't get you very far at all. Have to be able to actually follow the wheel first.


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

Again, why hasn't Ullrich been able to use that to his advantage in six Tours of following LA up every Col in France?


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Thank you for repeating me*



magnolialover said:


> . Might not be physiological, but in the head, there is plenty of a benefit.


As always, very insightful post.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*True...True....True*



Live Steam said:


> Again, why hasn't Ullrich been able to use that to his advantage in six Tours of following LA up every Col in France?


If wheelsucking gives you the advantage then Ullrich should be 8 time winner.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Utah CragHopper said:


> It's when you suck wheels the whole day then outsprint the guys who did all the work. It has a nice sound to it, like the cycling version of being knee capped.


You can't hide on a mountain stage. George had to climb the same mountains they did, plus he has been working harder than any of them pulling Lance around for the past 14 days. Has anyone seen Boogerd at all during the race until yesterday? Talk about wheel sucking. At least OP showed his face in a break on the Galibier the other day, but ironically, when caught, he couldn't keep up with George that day, either. Face it, George was the strongest guy, and he rightfully won.


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## RocketDog (Apr 9, 2005)

*Carmichael Article*

I didn't hear his comments yesterday, but in this article he states that there IS an advantage to sucking wheels on climbs, but a smaller one. Expending 20 or so less watts over the course of climb has got to add up in my estimation.
www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/experts/columns/0,5976,s1-12621-661,00.html


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## mb168 (Jan 3, 2005)

I'll have to rewatch it on Tivo but from what I recall, Pereiro was sitting behind George most of the day until the final climb.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Everyone says*

that the "rule" in the peloton, not just team orders, but some sort of expected tradition, is that if you're in the break and your teammate wears the Maillot Jaune, you don't work. Phil / Bob / Paul said it repeatedly. Like George said, in that position the leader's teammate doesn't really care if the break stays away or not, and I guess like another poster said, other guys in a break wouldn't want someone doing intentionally slow turns or something. It's just "how it goes" in this cylcle racing game.

As far as working on the last climb, do you think GH could have even gotten AROUND OP without wrecking into all the fans?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

George had the golden ticket because everyone in the break understood that he was not going to do any work at that front since he cannot help everybody gain time on the yellow jersey. It was understood, and it was completely ok. As Bobke put it, it was his 'divine right' to not do any work in front. In fact, it was his responsibility to not help the group.

That put George in an ideal spot and he capitalized on the opportunity. Job well done!

Is there any advantage not to be in front at all even on a climbing stage?? Heck ya! Folks are misapplying Carmichael when they use the quote:
"there is no physiological advantage to draftin in an 8% or higher climb"
That does not tell the story here cause these guys were away for 5 climbs. For each climb, there is a downhill and a flat valley. There is definitely a drafting advantage there. Plus there are faster/flatter parts to some of those hills.

So definitely a drafting advantage in that breakaway. Also a big psychological advantage of having someone else set the pace the whole time.

Opportunity was there. And the perfect man capitalized. Bravo!

francois


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## RocketDog (Apr 9, 2005)

*Thanks Francis*

Trying to discount the advantage of riding in a group on climbs is just plain stupid.

I KNOW I'm gonna walk into my LBS and next week and hear somebody repeating this, "there is no physiological advantage to drafting in an 8% or higher climb", baloney.


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## burpee (Jul 7, 2004)

*Me too! I'd be humiliated!*

Yah, I'd be simply ashamed of myself if I just pedaled 205 Kilometers over 4 Cat 1 climbs and a beyond Cat mountaintop finish to win what is probably one of the most difficult stages in the Tour de France. I don't know how I'd be able to look at myself in the mirror every morning...

SHADDAP!



foz said:


> hincapie won, but if i won that way i wouldn?t feel satisfied with myself...


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## mb168 (Jan 3, 2005)

burpee said:


> Yah, I'd be simply ashamed of myself if I just pedaled 205 Kilometers over 4 Cat 1 climbs and a beyond Cat mountaintop finish to win what is probably one of the most difficult stages in the Tour de France. I don't know how I'd be able to look at myself in the mirror every morning...
> 
> SHADDAP!


I'd be ashamed if I was 5'3" and weighed 130lbs in full gear ON the bike and couldn't drop a 6'3" rider weighing 175lbs stripped!!! 

If Johan had told him to STOP on the side of the road, have a seat, and wait for Lance he'd have done it. THAT is the difference in Disco and the others, they KNOW who the leader is and they are there for one reason and that is for him. No "3 pronged attack" or "we'll see after the TT/Mountains who's ahead." Lance is the leader, he and Johan call the shots, PERIOD!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*lighten up folks*

and study George's history a bit. How many classics has he been 'the strongest rider' in a group and gotten beat because other teams had 'tactical advantages'? Twice off the top of my head he was beaten in P-R because teams with a tactical advantage (numbers) and were able to use it against him. so today he had the tactical advantage and played it right. Bravo, congrats. If he can haul his 175 lb classics frame up 6 cols and win the sprint more power to him. Bike racing is about strategy and Discovery played it perfectly and George who's done nothing but turn himself inside out for his leader got a little payback. Kudos plain and simple. I predicted George would do it in the first week (he tried with jens but they were marked) so I'm glad that it came true (albeit far later than I expected) and on a far more meaningful stage. So I'm calling it now. Paolo gets sent marking any break tomorrow.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*That would be great*



atpjunkie said:


> So I'm calling it now. Paolo gets sent marking any break tomorrow.


IL Falco needs a chance to spread his wings.


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## SteveD (Feb 18, 2004)

*Even if he wanted to take a pull...*

there is no way he could have gotten to the front with all those crazy Basque fans lining the roads. I can't imagine riding through a crowd like that, let alone come around front for a pull.

George did a great race and should be congratulated without reservation.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*it just makes sense*

with a downhill run in. that way LA if he catches up has a speed demon helping him get down the mountain. if they don't catch, il Falco gets a shot with the same strategy as George. I mean you have the Giro winner happily fetching water and telling the Tifosi "it's an honor to ride for Lance" and since IMHO LA has a good lead and is feeling far more comfortable and happy to spread the wealth


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*drafting while climbing*



francois said:


> Is there any advantage not to be in front at all even on a climbing stage?? Heck ya! Folks are misapplying Carmichael when they use the quote:
> "there is no physiological advantage to draftin in an 8% or higher climb"
> That does not tell the story here cause these guys were away for 5 climbs.


Importantly, don't forget *these guys climb twice as fast as we do*. If we'd be at 8 mph, they are at 16. I'd take a draft at 16 mph, especially when I need every ounce of energy to get up the hill.


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## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

Fixed said:


> Importantly, don't forget *these guys climb twice as fast as we do*. If we'd be at 8 mph, they are at 16. I'd take a draft at 16 mph, especially when I need every ounce of energy to get up the hill.


Right, and the gradient on these climbs is *averaged*, not fixed. A portion of the time it's over 8%, but a portion it's also *under*, so they will be moving faster and drafting will be that much more important.


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## Fear the Turtle (Feb 17, 2004)

*George said exactly that...*



SteveD said:


> there is no way he could have gotten to the front with all those crazy Basque fans lining the roads. I can't imagine riding through a crowd like that, let alone come around front for a pull.
> 
> George did a great race and should be congratulated without reservation.


...in one of the follow-up interviews I read (Washington Post I think). He told Periero he would help once they got away, but couln't pass him in the crowd.

The opposite happened with T-Mobile, where one of their riders in the break dropped back to help Ulrich finish. Hincapie would have done the same.

Great finish. Storybook.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

izibo said:


> Actually, this makes no sense. There really is nothing to gain 'wheel-sucking' while climbing a mountain. This is completely different to the major different on a flat stage.
> 
> I do understand George didn't work while they were on flats, but that was due to team orders. Once it became clear that the break was going to survive, it didn't even matter.


There is physical benefit if there's any head wind or cross wind.


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## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

Fear the Turtle said:


> ...in one of the follow-up interviews I read (Washington Post I think). He told Periero he would help once they got away, but couln't pass him in the crowd.


I was thinking the same thing watching it. However, after reading Pereiro comments: "He said, 'Let's work together and try to get to the finish line,' then it seemed like I was doing all the work. It just didn't work out for me. This is a sporting competition and sometimes the strongest man doesn't win", I have to wonder why George couldn't have pulled in the last kilometer when the road was open. Maybe at that point he knew they were safely ahead of Caucchioli and Boogered so it was every man for himself?


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## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

*Missing the point*

Well my opinion (after watching a few times) was that when Pereiro attatcked he tried to go out on his own,,,and gh bridged the gap and got on his wheel. then Pereiro knew he was (on paper) a much better climber and tried to drop him but couldn't. he knew there is no way he beats gh at the finish if they are together.

gh did what he as suppossed to like a good leiutenant----but it was to be his day


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## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

mtbykr said:


> Pereiro knew he was (on paper) a much better climber and tried to drop him but couldn't. he knew there is no way he beats gh at the finish if they are together.


Yes, that is quite obvious. What I don't understand is why (according to both Pereiro and apparently Hincapie) George told Oscar with ~4k to go that he would help, but never pulled to the front until his burst a couple hundred meters from the finish. The crowds could certainly account for part of that, but once they were in the barrier section George had ample opportunity to pull. He of course had no reason to, other than whatever was said to Pereiro a few k's back. 

The options as I see them are:
a) George never gave Pereiro reason to think he would help the two stay away from Caucchioli and Boogerd. I haven't read George's comments about this, but Pereiro certainly claims this is not the case. If it is, either he misunderstood George or is trying to slander him in a serious case of sour grapes.
b) George did give Pereiro assurance he would help, but never actually intended to do so, and was acting in a manipulative and duplicious manner (which is probably not that uncommon among professional bike racers, especially as they approach the stage win of a lifetime)
c) George did give Pereiro assurance that he would help keep them ahead of Caucchioli and Boogerd. He was unable/unwilling to risk (which seems perfectly reasonable to me) coming around Pereiro through the crowds, and by the time they crossed the 1k mark the other two were no longer a threat to catch them, so all bets were off.


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## Shockee (Feb 12, 2004)

*Indurain big as Hincapie*



mb168 said:


> I'd be ashamed if I was 5'3" and weighed 130lbs in full gear ON the bike and couldn't drop a 6'3" rider weighing 175lbs stripped!!!
> 
> So you'd be ashamed if were so light and you couldn't drop 5-time winner Miguel Indurain?
> 
> The physiology of cycling is complex. Yes, mass is the biggest enemy in the mtns, but more important than mass is the overall package of muscle/heart/lungs and mass - and the right training. Lots of riders evolve towards better endurance and climbing as they age. Carmichael is the Cyrille Guimard of today.


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> Bravo, congrats. If he can haul his 175 lb classics frame up 6 cols and win the sprint more power to him.
> 
> Bike racing is about strategy. So I'm calling it now. Paolo gets sent marking any break tomorrow.


Good call. Spread the wealth and all. Great to see Paolo get a win.

George won fair and square, it's a bike race people, Rabo had 3 guys in the break and only two were doing anything meaningful, and no sour grapes on that little misfire. If a climber can't drop a classics guy on a mountain finish he does not deserve to win. Period.


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## mb168 (Jan 3, 2005)

Shockee said:


> mb168 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be ashamed if I was 5'3" and weighed 130lbs in full gear ON the bike and couldn't drop a 6'3" rider weighing 175lbs stripped!!!
> ...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*George played it perfectly*

you don't take the lead in the last K unless you want to lose. his bridge up to Pereiro a la Lance Armstrong, which is wait and see what the others do (as you are so confident in your ability to bridge up) when they all look like they've cracked and have no shot of grabbing your wheel and getting a free ride to the leader sprint away. watch the stage over, GH is sitting spinning while the other guys were having to stand. he was clearly fresher as he had no responisbility to work. Rabobank had a tactical advantage for Boogerd and he couldn't pull it off, he was getting a ride for free but maybe they expended too much energy doing KOM sprints to protect Rsamussen. Or maybe Boogerd, being a classics guy just couldn't hang. 6 cols and a 175 lber takes the day, just congratulate him.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

verve825 said:


> Nothing physical, sure- but psychologically? Absolutely: you've got your opponent in view the whole time, you don't have to worry about setting the pace, all you have to do is put your front hub at his back hub- way easier.


Funny, but I climb better in front of my riding buddies. When I'm on the back, its too easy to give up and just ride my own tempo.

'Course I'm not racing the TdF either!

M


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Jeeze, it doesn't have to be that complicated. If Pereiro could have dropped Hincapie, he should have dropped Hincapie before the line and won the race himself. He knew he couldn't, and it's ridiculous for him to blame the loss on Hincapie. 

Hincapie has outclimbed OP and the other guys in the break several times already this tour pulling Lance up the hills. Not to mention pulling Lance and OP and everyone else around on the flats for the last 14 days. Most of those guys should have been able to beat up on Hincapie because of all the work he has done defending the yellow jersey, but they couldn't, because he is clearly stronger. Once OP realizes this, he'll shut up. Maybe Floyd can explain it to him. Case closed.


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## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

mohair_chair said:


> Jeeze, it doesn't have to be that complicated.


Yeah, I suppose not, if you don't mind someone you otherwise hold in high regard potentially acting disingenuously. I found George's quote though; it seems to support my theory "c", and in my mind reinforces rather than denigrates the good name Hincapie has built. 

"I told Pereiro we could work together once we got away, but I couldn't even go past him, there were so many people and no room to go," Hincapie said. "In that situation, I just stayed behind him. I knew if I was within the last kilometer with him, I could win in a sprint for sure."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/17/AR2005071700286_2.html

Apparently George never intended to help Pereiro once inside the last kilometer, and perhaps Oscar understood this, or at least should have with the way things played out. To "not take the lead in the last K unless you want to lose" works well and is to be expected if there are only two riders contending for the stage win, not so much if there are chasers close behind (see: Chris Horner). Maybe Hincapie was being told they had a safe gap, while Pereiro was counting on pushing the pace together a bit further, and finally getting a small break from pulling . 

I'm as excited as the next guy about Hincapie's win, I just hate to see it tarnished by accusations of unfair play. George had no reason to tell Pereiro he would work with him, but he did. The fact that he did not follow through would not reflect well on George, except for the issue of the crowds that prevented him from doing so, and the cutthroat nature of the last kilometer (at least in George's mind, and reasonably so in my opionion). Sorry I find it so complicated, but who ever said bike racing was simple?


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

*You're a touch wrong, old chap.*



CARBON110 said:


> It's a f#ckn bike race or have you forgot? Win, Win, Win if you can. George played it perfectly and owned those guys nothing.


You're a tiny bit wrong, but not by much.

George and Pereiro made a deal with ~3k to go that they'd work together to stay away from the chasers. These deals generally terminate when both of the following are true:

a) You're inside the 1k line.
b) Your chasers are genuinely dropped.

Then it's a duel, and drama we love to see. George said he couldn't get past Pereiro to take a pull on the upper reaches of the climb, before the sheltered last-1k. Anyone who watched the coverage knows this is true. It's a miracle they made it through that sea of orange unscathed. For Pereiro to criticize him for not pulling through there makes no sense.

However, once they got inside the barriers I believe George could have at least taken a 100m pull just as a gesture; I can't believe he didn't know deep down inside that he'd beat Pereiro to the line anyway. Unless he was more baked than we knew, of course. I'm surprised Pereiro didn't force George into the lead as soon as they hit the barriers as well. He could have easily done that.

I believe Carmichael's research is wrong. If you're moving over 20kph you clearly can enjoy the benefit of the draft. Perhaps his comments were restricted to very, very slow climbing. There were some easier ramps in the final climb yesterday where they were going at least 20kph, and as such the wheel suckers had a very small, but measurable, advantage.

I also can't get rid of the image of George sitting on Boonen's wheel for the last 30k of Paris-Roubaix, watching Tom and Flecha do ~90% of the work. He deserved third but got second.

I'm very happy George won and he is obviously a very nice guy. He's never been one of my heroes however since I tend to favor cold-hearted assassins (Lance, Ivan, Petacchi) and wild attackers (Bettini, Horner, Voigt) over team players.

/shirt


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*good point mohair*

I tend to agree that George has done more work over the entire tour than any of the guys in that break. all the defense of the lead etc... and still I think GH was the highest place on GC of any of the break guys. so most were climbers or stagiares who'd been towed most the tour and had still lost over 30 minutes. I'm sure George agreed to help in final 5 K and got snookered by the crowd. at 1 K there's no way in hell you are going to get out front, even as a gesture. after the red kite it's game on and it would have taken George out of the positional advantage. Pereiro broke, he should have kept the gap but George bridged and then had every right to sit on so the deal was a more a gift for Pereiro. 
funny thing is this flame was started by a Richard "I promised Axel Merckx the stage if he let me take all the KOM points and renegged" Virenque fan.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*and furthermore*

I didn't hear George *****ing in 1999 or 2001 after Paris Roubaix saying 'well I was ganged up on by 3 teammates, it's not fair, the strongest man didn't win today"


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## txzen (Apr 6, 2005)

Miles E said:


> Apparently George never intended to help Pereiro once inside the last kilometer, and perhaps Oscar understood this, or at least should have with the way things played out.


If Oscar thought someone would pace him to the line in the last 1k, then he REALLY didn't deserve to win.

On those long breaks, there's a reason that you'll sometimes see the guys shake hands before they hit the 1k mark. They know that the time to work together is over. 

George raced a perfect stage.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*sometimes they'll shake*

and go side by side. when the peloton maybe breathing down their neck and any cat and mouse would cause a catch, they'll shake hands and go mano a mano. this may have helped Chavanel and Horner


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> funny thing is this flame was started by a Richard "I promised Axel Merckx the stage if he let me take all the KOM points and renegged" Virenque fan.


My intention was never to dis Hincapie--well, maybe make fun of the style he won a little. I just want those who were bad mouthing Mayo and Boogerd and are now falling all over themselves with George's victory to explain the difference. Something a little more enlightening than, "It was lame".

BTW, Virenque, master of the long mountain break, rewled. Too bad we couldn't have had him and Chiappucci on the same team. The peloton would never have gotten any rest.


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## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

txzen said:


> If Oscar thought someone would pace him to the line in the last 1k, then he REALLY didn't deserve to win.


"Pacing him to the line" may be a slight exaggeration (not bad for a Texan though!), but it does seem the two had different expectations of how long they would work together. The purpose of any such alliance would be to ensure that one of the two riders would win. It is pretty ridiculous if Oscar expected anything beyond that, even if Hincapie hadn't been able to contribute anything to the effort to that point.


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## nwilkes (Jun 21, 2004)

Utah CragHopper said:


> So if I get the general drift of these posts, the a-hats who were giving Mayo and Zubeldia and Boogerd a hard time had it wrong. Or maybe their opinion just changes because it's an american doing it. Couldn't be, could it?


Don't play the "Americun" card UCH- it is poor taste even for you  .

If Mayo had previously pulled Jan up some vertical cliff face while Jan was eating his weight in strudel and rocking out to the Kraftwerk remix of the Scorpion's classic "Rock you like a hurricane", I would say great for Iban for exacting revenge, but that isn't what happened is it now?

George addressed this dilemma himself by saying that he essentially felt great about marking OP and the Rabo boys because they all sucked Capie's wheel the entire way up the Galibier without once taking a pull (I'm paraphrasing obviously). Then horror of horrors they were _outsmarted_ by George Hincapie. Though it didn't seem to take a whole lot to do that. It is a double edged sword and those other racers were less wiley and savvy Sunday. How do you underestimate a guy who has had a season like Hincapie has had (and who has towed you up many, many climbs already in this race). If it was Julich or Popo they would have tried much harder to drop him.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> m. so today he had the tactical advantage and played it right. Bravo, congrats. If he can haul his 175 lb classics frame up 6 cols and win the sprint more power to him.


Actually I have it on pretty good authority that George's Tour weight is freakishly light for his size, around 165lbs.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

I think it was a great win! I was there (and Saturday, and watched him hump alone up the finish) and he earned that win. I rode the climbs, they were damn hard and it was HOT! For him to not just be out righted dropped on those climbs shows he earned it. And trust me, they weren't doing 16 MPH.

K


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## mb168 (Jan 3, 2005)

I don't see this much different from Stage 10 with Valverde. He rode behind a team mate, Lance, and Rasmussen the whole way until Lance jumped and he saw it since he was sitting on hs wheel and followed him to the line to win the stage. Even though he had a team mate there, he sat on the whole time up.


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