# Seeking feedback on used bike "possibles"



## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

After posting several times in the _Buying Your First Bike on a Budget_, it seemed more appropriate to start my own thread. I just read through the _New Bike Adventure_ thread, and found it very informative as well as interesting. 

If you want to read through my posts in the first thread linked above, there's a fair amount of background info that I won't repeat here. In a nutshell, I'm an older newb looking for my first road bike. I have a mountain bike, but would like to find something suitable for the road also. I'm pretty out-of-shape since some mishaps on the mountain bike last fall knocked me off the fitness wagon so a primary motivation for me is exercise. I also like and appreciate the aesthetics of machinery, including bikes and I enjoy learning about them. 

Since I've decided to actually start looking for/at bikes, I'm checking the local Craigslist on a daily basis and when I come across a possible candidate, I'd like to post up the ad and info here, along with any questions that come to mind. I'm not fixed on any particular bike--I don't know enough to have much of a preference. I'd like to get a smokin' deal of course, but will settle for a decent bike at a decent price. Just for example's sake, there was an older, 2001 model Lemond Buenos Aires for sale locally for $500 that got snapped up pretty quickly. That bike really appealed to me: cheap, steel, a quality bike in its day and I just liked the look of it.

So to start this thread off, there's a _2011 Specialized Secteur Elite Apex_ for sale. I've done a little research on it and have contacted the seller and set up a time to go take a look at it. It's definitely an entry-level bike, and I'm thinking, might be a little overpriced in terms of value? Especially when I compare its appeal to, say, the $500 Lemond. But I'm viewing this mostly as an opportunity to learn more, check out a bike in person and add to my personal database. Prep for being ready when the "right" bike shows up.

On this particular bike, I found some comparison data between the 2011 and 2012 models of this bike: _here_. I see that the 2011 has a SRAM Apex setup and the 2012 has Shimano Tiagra? Anything particular pro's / con's on these two options?

Also this one has some Speedplay Zero pedals. I've never ridden clipless (mountain bike has flat pedals). These seem to be $150 or so new and have their following. Any feedback on those? They would obviously add to the value of the bike.

I should mention that I've been educated to the need for a proper mechanical and fitting evaluation of any bike that I buy, so no need to go into that here. Anything that you might have to share, including opinions, on a particular bike will be much appreciated.

I'll try to keep additions to this thread shorter and to the point, but can't promise anything.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*FRANCO BALCOM ROAD - Full SRAM RED*

Wow, I'm back already....

Found this bike in the Classified section of the forums here.

_FRANCO BALCOM ROAD - Full SRAM RED - RoadBikeREVIEW.Com_

This bike is definitely outside my desired (sub-$1K) budget, but it struck me as a very nice bike, substantially discounted from it's original price and I'm not totally opposed to spending more if something falls into the "no-brainer" category. Just testing my perceptions--I've never heard of the company before.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Re: the Secteur, used bike prices can vary by region, but if the bike is in as good condition as the seller says, it's not too far from being priced right. 

My logic... the bike MSRP's for $1,450. Take the standard discount of ~10% off and you get ~$1,300. Take another 30% off for being one year old and that brings the price down around $900. Anything below that and you're not doing bad, IMO.

Re: the differences between Apex versus Tiagra, the most notable is that the Apex crankset mates to what's called a Powerspline bottom bracket. It's basically a loosely based version of Shimano's Octalink BB, but (IMO) not as durable. OTOH, the Tiagra crankset mates to a Hollowtech ll BB, using external bearings. IMO/E, a near bulletproof design.

This by no means implies that an Apex equipped bike is bad or inferior. Rather, it simply means (given the choice), I believe the Tiagra crankset/ BB will prove more durable.

Beyond that, the differences between the groups are pretty much ergonomics/ preferences in shifting. Neither is 'better' or 'worse', but many have preferences, so I suggest riding both, then deciding yours.

Re: the classified bike. If it's not local and you can't see it/ test ride it before committing to the purchase, I suggest passing. In other words, keep your bike hunting local - and have any candidates checked for mechanical condition/ fit.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Rode the Secteur today*

"Rode" is an exaggeration. I pedaled it around a parking lot. First time ever on a road bike and it felt very strange. It seemed a little small to me, but not extremely so. I remembered reading here somewhere about looking down at the front hub while pedaling on the seat. When I did, the front hub appeared to be well behind the handlebar. Bike is obviously in just-about-new condition. Asking price is $1,000 and includes a set of Speedplay pedals and Specialized shoes, which appear to be in my size. I'm going to go to some LBS's next week and see what I can do about narrowing down my size.

I wasn't real thrilled about this bike, but I'm also not worried about it being snapped up. Seller said he paid $1,100 for it last year (from the same shop I bought my Yeti). He's had it up for sale for many, many months and said I was the first person to show any serious interest--which is usually a sign of being overpriced for the market.

Need to get the sizing issue down before getting serious though.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> "Rode" is an exaggeration. I pedaled it around a parking lot. First time ever on a road bike and it felt very strange. It seemed a little small to me, but not extremely so. I remembered reading here somewhere about looking down at the front hub while pedaling on the seat. When I did, the front hub appeared to be well behind the handlebar. Bike is obviously in just-about-new condition. Asking price is $1,000 and includes a set of Speedplay pedals and Specialized shoes, which appear to be in my size. I'm going to go to some LBS's next week and see what I can do about narrowing down my size.
> 
> I wasn't real thrilled about this bike, but I'm also not worried about it being snapped up. Seller said he paid $1,100 for it last year (from the same shop I bought my Yeti). He's had it up for sale for many, many months and said I was the first person to show any serious interest--which is usually a sign of being overpriced for the market.
> 
> Need to get the sizing issue down before getting serious though.


Given what you've offered re: price, the bike does sound overpriced for your market, but if you aren't interested in it, the details don't much matter.

Just as a FYI, that hub reference is what I'd call 'ballparking', and because the bike hasn't been fitted to you, it doesn't really tell you much at all.

As we've both mentioned, you need to get your sizing requirements established, and the best way to do that is to opt for a standard fitting. You'd then compare the geo _numbers_ of the test bike (not the frame size) to others of interest, so you'd need to note the year, make, model and frame size ( for purposes of referencing the geo chart).


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback, PJ. 

The lights just went on re the fitting..... Not just getting a "size" but a whole "set" of geo numbers. For some reason, I was thinking that a full standard fitting would be to a particular bike. Duh.... I think I'll go back to the BG fitter and he can give me my ideal geo #'s to compare to specific bikes. After I find it bike then it's back for the fine tuning/adjustment. Sometimes I can be pretty dense.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> Thanks for the feedback, PJ.
> 
> The lights just went on re the fitting..... Not just getting a "size" but a whole "set" of geo numbers. For some reason, I was thinking that a full standard fitting would be to a particular bike. Duh.... I think I'll go back to the BG fitter and he give me my ideal geo #'s to compare to specific bikes. After I find it bike then it's back for the fine tuning/adjustment. Sometimes I can be pretty dense.


Not dense at all. It's perfectly understandable (and common) for folks to equate frame size and sizing. That worked fairly well with traditionally sized bikes with horizontal top tubes because (for example) a 56cm frame size had ~ a 56cm top tube. Now, with compact geo bikes with sloping top tubes, many manufacturers are using differing methods of measuring seat tube length (or various other methods) to size their bikes, misleading cyclists into thinking all are measured and fit the same.

Excellent idea tapping your BG FIT fitter for advice. Once you discuss your plans and ask for a baseline for fit requirements to be established, it'll be much easier to narrow the field for possible choices - new or used. Even if it costs you $50-$75 to get that baseline, I think it'll be well worth it and better your odds of getting a good fit on a new bike.


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## PKS123 (Aug 3, 2012)

I have noticed ridiculous deals on ebay for unused and slight used bikes lately... even with shipping were talking specialized/trek carbon bikes for around 1k. I would check that out... although always a risk buying sight un seen...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

PKS123 said:


> I have noticed ridiculous deals on ebay for unused and slight used bikes lately... even with shipping were talking specialized/trek carbon bikes for around 1k. I would check that out... although always a risk buying sight un seen...


You're basing your opinion only on pics and a sellers description. And since Trek nor Spec allow ebay sales, their bike wouldn't be new/ 'unused'. 

Beyond that, yes, there are a number of risks involved in buying online, which ebay sales are. Can't see the bike, can't test ride it, can't bring it to your LBS for mechanical/ fit assessment - and there's no warranty. Given how CF can fail (internally) and avoid notice, an especially risky prospect.

Buying used, I'd advise anyone to stay local, preferably seeking out LBS's selling used. That way there's some level of sizing/ fit assistance and sometimes a 30 day warranty. And in the case of private sellers, always ask that a LBS check the bike out prior to purchasing.


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## PKS123 (Aug 3, 2012)

*Pj*

I agree with you PJ... I actually opted for buying (my first nice bike) new at a LBS, was professionally fitted, got a good deal (New 2011 Tarmac Elite Apex) for $1599... lifetime service, warranty exc exc... just wanted to point out if someone wants to "roll the dice" on ebay they can... but I completely agree with you.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

PKS123 said:


> I agree with you PJ... *I actually opted for buying (my first nice bike) new at a LBS, was professionally fitted, got a good deal (New 2011 Tarmac Elite Apex) for $1599... lifetime service, warranty *exc exc... just wanted to point out if someone wants to "roll the dice" on ebay they can... but I completely agree with you.


Now_ that's_ what I call a really good deal!! :thumbsup:


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Not dense at all. It's perfectly understandable (and common) for folks to equate frame size and sizing. That worked fairly well with traditionally sized bikes with horizontal top tubes because (for example) a 56cm frame size had ~ a 56cm top tube. Now, with compact geo bikes with sloping top tubes, many manufacturers are using differing methods of measuring seat tube length (or various other methods) to size their bikes, misleading cyclists into thinking all are measured and fit the same.
> 
> Excellent idea tapping your BG FIT fitter for advice. Once you discuss your plans and ask for a baseline for fit requirements to be established, it'll be much easier to narrow the field for possible choices - new or used. Even if it costs you $50-$75 to get that baseline, I think it'll be well worth it and better your odds of getting a good fit on a new bike.


I think the confusion is mostly a matter of semantics. There seems to be a distinction between getting a rider's measurements and coming up with the appropriate geo and the subsequent (or simultaneous) "fitting" of an appropriately-sized bike. Actually I've never heard the term "sizing," before and generally "fitting" seems to be used to denote both these steps. Oh well, no need to split hairs and I'm glad to be getting a better handle on the process.

As a little aside, this conversation brings to mind a book that I read last year, titled "_*It's all About the Bike*_." (_LINK_)
 I found it very entertaining as well as interesting/informative. In a nutshell it's the author's (Robert Penn) chronicle of putting together his lifetime "dream bike," with a lot of cycling lore sprinkled into the mix. He explains his rationale for picking his components and then travels to visit the craftsman or factory involved in producing them. Handlebars from Italy; hubs and headset from Chris King's factory; wheels laced by some legendary ex-hippie in Marin County, CA. Incidentally, while visiting and observing his wheel build, had the opportunity to ride the "Repack" race course, famous in early mountain biking lore, for a ride accompanied by (IIRC) Joe Breezer. His frame was commissioned to a fellow in Great Britain named Brian Rourke, who also has suitably legendary credentials as a master frame-builder. Mr. Rourke's method of "sizing"/"fitting" seems to have been refined to the point where he simply observed the author on his current bike, went for a short ride with him and deciding on the appropriate tweaks in his head! I guess I could fly to England for a consultation....ha! A great read if you like that sort of thing.

I'm off to see what I can find out ASAP! Thanks for the feedback and encouragement. I plan to detail this whole process because I like talking/writing; I like getting feedback and hopefully by the time I find something suitable I'll have learned a lot about the process and maybe other newbies will find the info useful too.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I hedge on even offering this because it's apt to convolute your (seemingly) well mapped out bike buying process, BUT.... I think you're a retro-classic kinda guy. That explains the interest in a steel LeMond and disinterest in an alu Spec Secteur. 

Might wanna consider some more unique/ personal options, like staying with the hunt for an older, steel steed or possibly building up a bike from a frame. You'd still need to pin down sizing requirements and there's the disadvantage that it'll cost more, but it'll be a learning experience, unique and all yours.

Re: the sizing/ fit comments, suffice to say the fit _process_ includes sizing and a fitting. Sizing comes first and has to meet some key rider requirements to attain an optimal fit. Ideally, when a bikes geo is well matched to an individual, only tweaks (or, small adjustments) are all that's needed to dial in fit. We commonly refer to this as a good fit "out of the box".


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> I hedge on even offering this because it's apt to convolute your (seemingly) well mapped out bike buying process, BUT.... I think you're a retro-classic kinda guy. That explains the interest in a steel LeMond and disinterest in an alu Spec Secteur.
> 
> Might wanna consider some more unique/ personal options, like staying with the hunt for an older, steel steed or possibly building up a bike from a frame. You'd still need to pin down sizing requirements and there's the disadvantage that it'll cost more, but it'll be a learning experience, unique and all yours.
> 
> Re: the sizing/ fit comments, suffice to say the fit _process_ includes sizing and a fitting. Sizing comes first and has to meet some key rider requirements to attain an optimal fit. Ideally, when a bikes geo is well matched to an individual, only tweaks (or, small adjustments) are all that's needed to dial in fit. We commonly refer to this as a good fit "out of the box".


PJ, 

No need to hedge. Whatever comments you want to make are fine with me and appreciated. I'm just trying to think this through out loud, so to speak, so I can start to actually understand the concepts so they don't seem so tortuous. I think your comments above re getting a good "out of the box" fit is a real succinct way of putting it. And that's my primary target: to get myself quantified to the point where I can compare "my" geo to any prospective bike and see whether it can be easily tweaked. (Some progress on that to be reported.)

I intend to keep looking--I enjoy that as much as anything, to tell the truth. And maybe another bike like the Lemond will show up. I doubt that I have the patience to build my own--although the thought of it appeals.

I actually went out to 2 LBS this afternoon. First was another certified BG fit shop--different than the one where I bought the Yeti. I spent a good hour with the owner of that shop and got along really well with him. He put me through the MEASUREMENT phase of a system called "The Original Fit Kit." I think there's no point in doing the BG "fit" until you've got an actual bike to work with. I have those measurements and I'm going to post them up here and get some input as there are somethings that I do NOT understand--thought I did in the shop though ;-). 

To paraphrase someone wiser than I: complexity is a sure sign of non-comprehension. 

Interesting development on the inseam though: measured with the proper spring-loaded stick-in-the crotch, my inseam actually measured 35.77". So I don't know why my jeans are 30" inseam????

As soon as I figure out how to post those numbers up here in a legible fashion, I'd certainly appreciate some help with understanding how they relate to the project. I have a feeling there may be a couple missing items, but I could be wrong.

BTW, he had a 2011 Secteur in the shop on close out for $800. Not my size though (he said, confidently. )

There's a later model Lemond Zurich locally. Might be a good deal @ $1,400, but more than I want to spend and it's a used carbon frame....so no go.

Also discovered that my "trusted" LBS seems to have a LOT more expertise in mountain bikes than road models...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> I actually went out to 2 LBS this afternoon. First was another certified BG fit shop--different than the one where I bought the Yeti. I spent a good hour with the owner of that shop and got along really well with him. He put me through the MEASUREMENT phase of a system called "The Original Fit Kit." I think there's no point in doing the BG "fit" until you've got an actual bike to work with. I have those measurements and I'm going to post them up here and get some input as there are somethings that I do NOT understand--thought I did in the shop though ;-).
> 
> To paraphrase someone wiser than I: complexity is a sure sign of non-comprehension.
> 
> ...


FWIW, that Fit Kit has been around awhile. I had one done back in the early 90's, but my fit has since evolved to the point that I chuckle when I look at the recommendations. It's not a pro fit, but still, I think it's good that you're getting some measurements taken and a baseline established. I'll be interested in reading your update, but I think the static and dynamic phases of your fit process will be more telling.

Re: the BG FIT, I'd go a step further and say it's not necessary at this time. If/ when you have some niggling fit issues and/ or aren't assured you have an optimal fit, _then_ consider a pro fit.

Interesting comment re: your trusted LBS and them having more expertise in MTB's versus road. If that opinion came from the other Spec shop, it may be slightly biased. 

Forgot to mention... unless you wear your pants tight against your crotch and dragging on the floor, your cycling inseam will always to longer than your pants inseam.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> FWIW, that Fit Kit has been around awhile. I had one done back in the early 90's, but my fit has since evolved to the point that I chuckle when I look at the recommendations. It's not a pro fit, but still, I think it's good that you're getting some measurements taken and a baseline established. I'll be interested in reading your update, but I think the static and dynamic phases of your fit process will be more telling.


The guy who worked with me (Johnny), is a co-owner of the shop, and he's also a Certified BG Fit technician, but he never even suggested doing a full fit. He did spend a fair amount of time with me, doing the basic "Fit Kit" measurements and then taking me out on the floor to demonstrate some points on a couple of bikes. It's a nice shop; medium-sized a full Specialized dealer. They also sell Orbea's and I'm kind of surprised Specialized lets them do that. He charged me $10 for the "consultation" and refused my offer to pay more, since he spent so much time with me. Good customer service and we got along well.



> Re: the BG FIT, I'd go a step further and say it's not necessary at this time. If/ when you have some niggling fit issues and/ or aren't assured you have an optimal fit, _then_ consider a pro fit.


Yeah...I don't know what the point of a full BG Fit would be at this point as it seems to require an actual BIKE to be fitted to? Johnny seemed to get that and tried to help me as best he could with the Fit Kit measurements. I have a lot of questions on those. I'll try and post a picture of the worksheet up here, but I want to try to sit down and see what I can figure out before I post 10 pages of questions on it!



> Interesting comment re: your trusted LBS and them having more expertise in MTB's versus road. If that opinion came from the other Spec shop, it may be slightly biased.


Nope, not from the other Spesh store. I haven't made it over there yet, but intend to soon.

The "trusted" shop is a more mom-and-pop kind of place and more mountain-bike oriented. They seem to have a loyal clientele here in ABQ and I kind of latched onto them more by reputation than experience. One of the owners is supposed to be a top-notch wheelbuilder and the other has a background in suspension tweaking and tuning. They're also a GIANT dealer, and I thought I should check out a Defy there. After spending the time with Johnny at the Spesh store, I went over to their shop to drop off my wheelset and to hopefully check out a Defy. (I scored a great deal over the winter on a take-off set of DT 240s laced to DT XR400 rims. Those are really light rims for me, and when Stan's put their Flow rims on blow out @ $40/each I decided to just get the DT hubs laced to the Flows.) After we settled on that, I asked about the Defy and all the "sizing" info. Maybe I came across like a blithering idiot, but their response was, basically, "Well, we don't mess with all those numbers, but just put you on different sized bikes and do it by trial and error." I'm sure that makes basic sense because there's probably only 2 possible sizes that would need to be tested. But they didn't have any answers to the kinds of questions I was asking, fresh from the Spesh visit. Since they didn't have a Defy in stock and didn't seem real interested in pursuing the matter. Neither did I, at that point. Now I'm hoping that the wheels actually come out right! There are two other Giant dealers in town if I want to pursue a Defy. At this particular point, I think your assessment of my 'druthers was right--if another Lemond steel bike showed up for $500, I'd probably just snap it up and see what it's about.



> Forgot to mention... unless you wear your pants tight against your crotch and dragging on the floor, your cycling inseam will always to longer than your pants inseam.


Kinda like Jim Morrison back in the day?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> The guy who worked with me (Johnny), is a co-owner of the shop, and he's also a Certified BG Fit technician, but he never even suggested doing a full fit. He did spend a fair amount of time with me, doing the basic "Fit Kit" measurements and then taking me out on the floor to demonstrate some points on a couple of bikes. It's a nice shop; medium-sized a full Specialized dealer. They also sell Orbea's and I'm kind of surprised Specialized lets them do that. He charged me $10 for the "consultation" and refused my offer to pay more, since he spent so much time with me. Good customer service and we got along well.


For a pro fitter to spend an appreciable amount of time with you doing a Fit Kit and charging $10 is dirt cheap. IMO that alone gives his shop an edge, even if it's only to guide and (ultimately) fit you to a bike you choose - new or used. If you decide to use him (more or less) as a consultant, I suggest working out a price for that service. You're just getting into this, so it doesn't have to be now, but something to keep in mind for the future.

As far as him not suggesting a full fit, you'd generally need to have picked out a brand/ model bike to go to that step, or tell him you'd like one because you'd use it as a baseline reference to shop for new / used bikes. 



Porschefan said:


> Yeah...*I don't know what the point of a full BG Fit would be at this point as it seems to require an actual BIKE to be fitted to?* Johnny seemed to get that and tried to help me as best he could with the Fit Kit measurements. I have a lot of questions on those. I'll try and post a picture of the worksheet up here, but I want to try to sit down and see what I can figure out before I post 10 pages of questions on it!


The measurements taken are the first step in either a standard or pro fitting. A BG FIT is a pro fitting, but any level of fitting requires a bike. That's the static fit phase and from there you'd go to the dynamic fit (test ride) phase with tweaks (if needed) to follow. 



Porschefan said:


> Nope, not from the other Spesh store. I haven't made it over there yet, but intend to soon.
> 
> The "trusted" shop is a more mom-and-pop kind of place... I asked about the Defy and all the "sizing" info. Maybe I came across like a blithering idiot, but their response was, basically, "Well, *we don't mess with all those numbers, but just put you on different sized bikes and do it by trial and error." * I'm sure that makes basic sense because there's probably only 2 possible sizes that would need to be tested. But* they didn't have any answers to the kinds of questions I was asking*, fresh from the Spesh visit. Since they didn't have a Defy in stock and didn't seem real interested in pursuing the matter. Neither did I, at that point. Now I'm hoping that the wheels actually come out right! There are two other Giant dealers in town if I want to pursue a Defy. At this particular point, I think your assessment of my 'druthers was right--if another Lemond steel bike showed up for $500, I'd probably just snap it up and see what it's about.


Being more of a mom and pop shop, it stands to reason they'd be more likely to do what's called an 'eyeball fitting', which actually is applying experience to 'size the rider up' during conversation, then put them on a bike in their size range. From there, they might go up/ down a size and once a size was settled on, fit you. 

This method bypasses the 'measurement' phase, but it's a matter of opinion whether the end result suffers any for it. No matter which variation in your path you ultimately choose, you're likely getting a standard fitting from one of the shops in your area, and methods often vary among them. The important thing is that you're comfortable riding your bike when the fitting is completed.

Not knowing what types of questions you asked of that shop, I can't really comment or offer an opinion other than to say if they picked up on your visiting the other shop, it may have dissuaded them from taking more time with you, but that's merely supposition on my part. 



Porschefan said:


> Kinda like Jim Morrison back in the day?


lol... yeah, kinda. :wink5:


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> For a pro fitter to spend an appreciable amount of time with you doing a Fit Kit and charging $10 is dirt cheap. IMO that alone gives his shop an edge, even if it's only to guide and (ultimately) fit you to a bike you choose - new or used. If you decide to use him (more or less) as a consultant, I suggest working out a price for that service. You're just getting into this, so it doesn't have to be now, but something to keep in mind for the future.


His shop is definitely my go-to source at this point because of his helpfulness.



> As far as him not suggesting a full fit, you'd generally need to have picked out a brand/ model bike to go to that step, or tell him you'd like one because you'd use it as a baseline reference to shop for new / used bikes.
> 
> The measurements taken are the first step in either a standard or pro fitting. A BG FIT is a pro fitting, but any level of fitting requires a bike. That's the static fit phase and from there you'd go to the dynamic fit (test ride) phase with tweaks (if needed) to follow.


Yeppers. I've got the basic concept down now for sure. I've got a lot I still want to understand about bike geometry, but even with what I have now I've got something to build the next layer on. I haven't figured out an easy way to post up the worksheets on my measurements, and they might even confuse the thread. There are some points/measurements that I can't quite match up to various bike's frame geo charts. I'm going to re-visit the shop soon and clarify that.

That said, I think I can say that the outside ranges of "sizes" that might be in the ballpark are 54 (not too likely) to 60, with 56-58 probably the sweet spot. Once I figure out how to relate my measurements to geo charts I should be able to recognize something that is at least worth taking to a shop.




> Being more of a mom and pop shop, it stands to reason they'd be more likely to do what's called an 'eyeball fitting', which actually is applying experience to 'size the rider up' during conversation, then put them on a bike in their size range. From there, they might go up/ down a size and once a size was settled on, fit you.


This method bypasses the 'measurement' phase, but it's a matter of opinion whether the end result suffers any for it. No matter which variation in your path you ultimately choose, you're likely getting a standard fitting from one of the shops in your area, and methods often vary among them. The important thing is that you're comfortable riding your bike when the fitting is completed.[/QUOTE]

Yep--understood.



> Not knowing what types of questions you asked of that shop, I can't really comment or offer an opinion other than to say if they picked up on your visiting the other shop, it may have dissuaded them from taking more time with you, but that's merely supposition on my part.


I'm pretty sensitive to that issue and try to keep in-exchange with vendors, shop owners, etc. It's a two-way street though.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*2008 LeMond Zurich*

From local Craigslist. Price keep dropping so I'm going to go look at this one, just for the practice if nothing else.

LeMond Zurich

Given the caveats on getting the bike and carbon frame checked out, this seems like a nice bike. Don't know if the "old" Lemond geo carries forward to their latest bikes, or how the later carbon models stack up. The specs look pretty nice though--full Ultegra and super-low miles. 57 cm might be a bit small now...

Lemond Zurich-Bikepedia

Any big gotcha's or cautions about this bike?

TIA.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> There are some points/measurements that I can't quite match up to various bike's frame geo charts.* I'm going to re-visit the shop soon and clarify that.*
> 
> That said, I think I can say that the outside ranges of "sizes" that might be in the ballpark are 54 (not too likely) to 60, with 56-58 probably the sweet spot. Once I figure out how to relate my measurements to geo charts I should be able to recognize something that is at least worth taking to a shop.


I suspect the problem you're having is that you were given a data sheet with measurements/ numbers (for example, top tube or reach recommendations). Those numbers sometimes include recommendations for stem lengths, necessitating adding/ matching the TT numbers with various stem lengths to get in your recommended reach range. 

This is supposition, so I agree that you need to go back to the fitter for help in deciphering the data.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> From local Craigslist. Price keep dropping so I'm going to go look at this one, just for the practice if nothing else.
> 
> LeMond Zurich
> 
> ...


Three things to be aware of on this bike. First, being full CF, no one's going to know for certain there aren't any internal defects/ flaws unless they have ultrasound equipment lying around in their shop. This means your (and the LBS you bring the bike to) only have the option to visually inspect the bike for cracks/ gouges. 

Second, those Bonty paired spoke wheelsets aren't known for their durability, so be sure to check carefully around the rim spoke holes for signs of cracking/ separating. 

Last, but not least, remember that buying used means you get no warranty, so proceed with caution with this one.

Re: the geo, FWIW I poked around the web and the best I could find is that one seller stated that his 57cm '08 Zurich had a top tube measuring ~575mm. That said, just make sure you get the bike to a reputable LBS for mechanical/ fit assessment before committing to the purchase.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Three things to be aware of on this bike. First, being full CF, no one's going to know for certain there aren't any internal defects/ flaws unless they have ultrasound equipment lying around in their shop. This means your (and the LBS you bring the bike to) only have the option to visually inspect the bike for cracks/ gouges.
> 
> Second, those Bonty paired spoke wheelsets aren't known for their durability, so be sure to check carefully around the rim spoke holes for signs of cracking/ separating.
> 
> ...


Will go to see bike later and possibly take some pix. Have let seller know that a full checkout at a shop will be required.

I'm leaning towards NOT getting this bike, treating visit as "practice." Will see how motivated seller is and how the bike looks and feels. Those wheels do look a little hinky and I've read about Bontrager rims cracking around the spoke holes.


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## Goblox (Aug 7, 2012)

good stuff


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> Will go to see bike later and possibly take some pix. Have let seller know that a full checkout at a shop will be required.
> 
> I'm leaning towards NOT getting this bike, treating visit as "practice." Will see how motivated seller is and how the bike looks and feels. Those wheels do look a little hinky and I've read about Bontrager rims cracking around the spoke holes.


Overall, not a bad plan, IMO. I wanted to give you a heads up on the wheelset because some sellers actually portray them as 'upgrades'. Glad you're already aware...

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

Some thoughts.

My first road bike was an Aluminum Defy, that i bought from a mom-n-pop LBS. They had me ride around the parking lot on a M-L and a L, and I ended up buying the L because in my completely unqualified opinion, I thought the L felt better. When it came time to do an actual fitting a few months down the line, to sort out some fit issues, my fitter had to do some wacky stuff, like completely slamming the stem, not being able to get the saddle in the right spot, and otherwise being unable to get my fit perfect on that particular frame. I eventually sold it for, gosh, $750 a year after i bought it? 

After having stack/reach #'s from my fitter, it was easy to nail down the right frame, but like you guys have been saying, getting a pro-fit before you have developed your riding position doesn't make a ton of sense--so, in short, getting a ball park fitting to help determine frame size is a critical part of the 1st bike buying process. 

Not accusing your mom n pop LBS of this, but there are times when some LBS's will push certain frame sizes on a new buyer because that's what they've got in inventory, and they'd like to move the bike--whether it's the right bike for the buyer or not. 

In general, I find speedplay pedals to be brilliant and love mine. And Lemond isn't known for the CF frames, Lemond's steel tube bikes do have a pretty avid cult following (I'd like to add a steel frame Lemond to my stable)--but Lemond's CF was almost certainly produced to lemond's geometry by Trek's OEM infrastructure, and Trek's CF buidl quality is fine. 

Regarding the used bike market, there are regional variations in pricing. To me, $1000 for that secteur is slightly overpriced. But, also cruising your local CL shows there isn't much supply, so it might explain the pricing. 

I will say this Bianchi speaks to me http://santafe.craigslist.org/bik/3133505324.html, but only because i'm a sucker for celeste. A little overpriced, but not a bad buy at $800, imo.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Fit Kit numbers*

EDIT: Aug 8

I made a *MAJOR* error in transposing the worksheet numbers--substituted a "+" for a "-" (duhhh....!!). Now top tube length makes total sense and I have numbers that are helpful. I've deleted the worksheet pix and will post up correct when I can later today.

My bad.

STP


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Saw the Lemond Zurich*

OK....be sure and talk me down from the ledge if I'm getting overly-enthusiastic/manic :blush2:

Just to refresh, _THIS_ is the bike in question.

The bike appears to be in pretty close to immaculate condition, at least to my unpracticed eye. There are no blemishes on the frame that I can see, but I understand that they might not be visible to the naked eye.

I rode it around a little bit and it felt "OK" to me. It kind of felt _about_ like my Yeti as far as the cockpit goes. Having zero experience, it's hard to tell whether it's right or not. The seller did have another Lemond there--an Alp d'Huez (?) model in the 56cm size. I rode that one around a bit, and I would say that is definitely too small. I felt cramped. I can't believe that 1cm would make such a difference, and it begs the question of whether the 57 might also be too small.

Seller had the original manual and the CD that came with the bike--in untouched condition. He let me take the CD home and I've copied it to my computer and gone through it hopes of finding some geo numbers, but nothing there. Just generic fluff about "Your new bike"--how to take care of it, safety warnings etc.

I've called Trek dealer tech support (number here on MTBR) and asked whether they have any info with no luck. I've also contacted someone I'm acquainted with at Trek to see of there is any chance in hell that I can get the bike registered in my name. Trek still honors Lemond lifetime frame warranties--although they'll just give you a Trek frame. Probably not much chance here--even though the owner never registered the bike. That warranty is worth some $$, so if it's impossible, the price will have to reflect the risk.

I'll check serial number and do what I can to ensure it's not stolen, but after spending some time with the seller, I would be very, very surprised if there were anything shady going on.

Next step, barring a decision to walk, is to take it to High Desert this weekend and have it checked out for condition and size. Then price negotiations. My gut feeling right now, would be that $1K would probably be close to no-brainer price, but I'm in the throes of my "first date." It has the full Ultegra components along with a nice saddle and a Thompson seat post.

PS--Does that stem look unusually angled "up"?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

This is basically a worksheet of your body measurements/ proportions/ flexibility. Had step #4 on the first page been filled in, you'd have a start on using it as a baseline for bike shopping. 

I'm not suggesting you do this because it'll only serve to confuse you, but you could input those numbers into a fit calculator and it'll spit out some recommendations. 

BTW, I'm in no way dissing the fitter in my remarks. Rather, I'm saying that this is a first step in your fit process. As you can tell, there are references to slide charts, so beyond just general info, there's little of value here for the end user.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I'll offer upfront that I think you have next to no chance of getting the bike warrantied. Trek will have a record of the serial number and given the age of the bike and the fact that it's never been registered (which begs the question, why not??) you'll most likely need a receipt in the event of a warranty claim.

As far as fit/ feel and comparing this bike to the Alpe d'Huez, since you haven't been fitted to either, I think you're comparing apples to oranges. A fore/ aft seat repositioning and/ or stem length/ angle differences of even a few mm's can make a noticeable difference in fit, so something to keep in mind if you're considering either bike. 

Also, if you do consider them, I suggest bringing one or both to the Fit Kit fitter for assessment since he's already got a start on your measurements. And I agree that the lack of warranty necessitates price adjustment, for both frameset and wheelset risk. Whether the seller sees it the same way is yet to be determined. 

Re: the flipped up stem, the bike setup in general tells me the frame is too small for the rider, but since I haven't seen him on the bike that's just a guess. If I'm correct, the fitter would have had to resort to these types of compromises to get the desired saddle to bar drop. A lesson in why honing in not only the correct size but the correct geo for a given rider is important. Remember that "good fit out of the box" we talked about? :wink5:


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Here's some info I ran across re: Lemonds geometry. It's an old link, so probably won't help with the CF frameset (although I doubt Lemond geo _ever_ changed).
Lemond Bikes : Geometry


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

charlox5 said:


> Some thoughts.
> 
> My first road bike was an Aluminum Defy, that i bought from a mom-n-pop LBS. They had me ride around the parking lot on a M-L and a L, and I ended up buying the L because in my completely unqualified opinion, I thought the L felt better. When it came time to do an actual fitting a few months down the line, to sort out some fit issues, my fitter had to do some wacky stuff, like completely slamming the stem, not being able to get the saddle in the right spot, and otherwise being unable to get my fit perfect on that particular frame. I eventually sold it for, gosh, $750 a year after i bought it?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input, Charlox. RE the Secteur--the Specialized dealer who did the Fit Kit had a 2011 model on the floor as a clearance item for $800, so I think the Craigslist one is overpriced. Unless you factor in the Speedplay pedals and Specialized shoes.

My ardor for the Lemond Zurich is fading a bit due to the extensive list of negatives--no warranty, bad wheels. I'm going to explore the fit a bit more and possibly make an offer that will likely be refused. Watch here for breaking news.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Here's some info I ran across re: Lemonds geometry. It's an old link, so probably won't help with the CF frameset (although I doubt Lemond geo _ever_ changed).
> Lemond Bikes : Geometry


Thanks PJ. That's the link I had found once and then couldn't locate again. I've downloaded the charts and saved them now. 

I'm going to see if I can go to High Desert this afternoon with the chart and my measurements and see what's up. According to the FitKit my measurements equate to a top tube length (with a 100mm stem) of 763--which can't be right, so I have to find out what's missing.

You're right on the warranty. I checked with my Trek acquaintance and he confirmed no way.


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## ruby1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Porschefan said:


> In a nutshell, I'm an older newb looking for my first road bike. I have a mountain bike, but would like to find something suitable for the road also. I'm pretty out-of-shape since some mishaps on the mountain bike last fall knocked me off the fitness wagon so a primary motivation for me is exercise. I also like and appreciate the aesthetics of machinery, including bikes and I enjoy learning about them.


I'm very similar - except for the reason for falling off the fitness wagon... but I did a lot of reading online and kept my eyes open for 2nd hand bikes. I ended up buying off eBay. Well actually my hubby kindly bid on my behalf (unbeknown to me, though I had been lusting after it for days!). It didn't meet it's reserve price but they decided to offer it to us.

I was a bit worried that it was a wild purchase but I have been overjoyed with it - it is a specialized with a carbon frame and it is immaculate - as it looked in the photos. Barely a mark on it - and I love it to bits! So there are bargains to be had, but ideally you would want to check them out in person first.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re-visit to bike shop....*

I went to see Johnny at High Desert today to clarify the Fit Kit numbers and get his opinion on the Lemond Zurich for sale.

As noted in my edit of my previous post, I goofed by ADDING a stem length to my "total bike length" and thereby getting a ridiculous top tube number. I'll post up the correct numbers when I get to my other computer. Suffice it to say that top tube now makes sense and the Lemond's top tube of 575 cm puts it in the proper ball park.

Johnny noted something that I wasn't even aware of though: the bike has a standard, rather than compact, or at least it looks so in the picture. He told me that as a newb I might find the gearing tough, except for the flat rides around here. There are a lot of hills/mountains around here and he thought that I might have a hard time on anything that wasn't pretty flat. He said that the great majority of riders here employ a compact crankset, himself included. That was news to me! The Zurich has a 2x10 drive train and I thought that meant "compact"--on which I had an earlier confusion too. So there are not only compact frames, but compact cranks. Who knew?

He asked his chief mechanic who had a lot of experience with Trek in the past about the problems with wheels. He said that there was definitely a problem with those Bontragers cracking around the spoke holes. He thought that it had been corrected, but said that 2008 could definitely be old enough to have the problems.

Regarding the flipped stem, he said it's not that unusual, but I'd have to get on the bike and see whether it's too high, could be flipped back, or some spacers removed. My impression is that this might be the crucial measurement. I have a top-tube + stem range now; and the measurement from the pedal to the seat top (at least according to the Fit Kit). I guess the height and position of the bars is something that just needs to be tweaked. I guess some bikes might have a higher/longer head tube and that might be a consideration for someone who couldn't get comfortable on a bike with the proper top-tube + stem length? I'm speculating that makers who specify an "endurance" as opposed to a "racing" geo might have longer head tubes...???? I guess that the more you like to lean forward the longer your stem might have to be.

As far as this bike goes, the crank question needs to be answered as that might be the deal breaker. Buying with the idea of replacing the crankset doesn't make it any kind of a bargain. I'm also thinking that it definitely needs a full tuneup (at least) and maybe tires. It blew a rear tire when I was riding it around yesterday. Scared the bejeesus out of me--sounded just like a pistol shot!

One last thing that Johnny pointed out was the fact that a 2008 Ultegra gruppo isn't necessarily "better" than a newer, but lower spec'd set--like 105's or Tiagra, or however that goes. I know this is certainly true with mountain bike gear.

BTW, Johnny puts NO pressure on me to buy a new bike and has been great as far as being willing to help me out with analyzing bikes. He really doesn't want any money, but I'm going to buy a set of mountain bike tires from him and whatever else I can--really a great guy.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Standard vs. Compact cranks*

I found this link discussing pro's and con's of compact vs. standard:

_Steve Hogg bike fitting site_

He explains things pretty well, but with no experience I don't know. Probably should give serious weight to Johnny's note that not many ride standards here.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Corrected Fit Kit numbers..*

Here are the revised/corrected Fit Kit numbers.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> I went to see Johnny at High Desert today to clarify the Fit Kit numbers and get his opinion on the Lemond Zurich for sale.
> 
> As noted in my edit of my previous post, I goofed by ADDING a stem length to my "total bike length" and thereby getting a ridiculous top tube number. I'll post up the correct numbers when I get to my other computer. Suffice it to say that top tube now makes sense and* the Lemond's top tube of 575 cm puts it in the proper ball park*.


Possibly, but to retain proper f/r weight distribution you don't want to run a too short stem on a ~medium frame size. Also, to calculate (and compare) the effective top tubes of bikes you need to know their seat tube/ head tube angles, because for every degree of change to STA, ETT changes ~8mm's and HTA ~3mm's. Be advised, if you want to know lots about this bike buying experience, you may need to drop a couple of Excedrins every so often. 



Porschefan said:


> Johnny noted something that I wasn't even aware of though: the bike has a standard, rather than compact, or at least it looks so in the picture. He told me that as a newb I might find the gearing tough, except for the flat rides around here. There are a lot of hills/mountains around here and he thought that I might have a hard time on anything that wasn't pretty flat. He said that the great majority of riders here employ a compact crankset, himself included. That was news to me! The Zurich has a 2x10 drive train and I thought that meant "compact"--on which I had an earlier confusion too. *So there are not only compact frames, but compact cranks. Who knew?*


Yup, and mid-compacts and triples as well. I scanned through the Steve Hogg's site and think you'll get a fair amount out of it. 

As far as choosing gearing is concerned, simply put, gearing should match a riders fitness and terrain. Since you and the fitter know both those things better than we do, I suggest going with his suggestion and add, when in doubt, go lower rather than higher. Generally speaking, a recreational rider will be more likely to use something like a 34/25 than a 53/11. 



Porschefan said:


> He asked his chief mechanic who had a lot of experience with Trek in the past about the problems with wheels. He said that there was definitely a problem with those Bontragers cracking around the spoke holes. He thought that it had been corrected, but said that 2008 could definitely be old enough to have the problems.


I agree on all counts. I'd bet that the Bonty's on that Lemond are of the earlier (problematic) vintage. The problems have since been corrected and AFAIK Trek/ Bonty no longer offer paired spoke wheelsets. 



Porschefan said:


> Regarding the flipped stem, he said it's not that unusual, but I'd have to get on the bike and see whether it's too high, could be flipped back, or some spacers removed. My impression is that this might be the crucial measurement. I have a top-tube + stem range now; and the measurement from the pedal to the seat top (at least according to the Fit Kit). I guess the height and position of the bars is something that just needs to be tweaked. I guess some bikes might have a higher/longer head tube and that might be a consideration for someone who couldn't get comfortable on a bike with the proper top-tube + stem length? I'm speculating that makers who specify an "endurance" as opposed to a "racing" geo might have longer head tubes...???? I guess that the more you like to lean forward the longer your stem might have to be.


Most of what you offer here is pretty much spot-on, but you're blurring top tube + stem (reach) and head tube length + stem angle/ spacers (drop) a little too much. 

For certain, part of choosing the right geo (for you) will not only entail focusing on effective top tube lengths, but also head tube lengths. As far as I can tell, your Fit Kit numbers didn't get to the point of honing in on HTL or stem/ spacer setup, but I'm sure your fitter will address that in due time. 

As a general reference, if you flexibility is about average, you'll likely be looking at a saddle to bar drop of ~5cm, or ~2 inches. 



Porschefan said:


> As far as this bike goes, the crank question needs to be answered as that might be the deal breaker. Buying with the idea of replacing the crankset doesn't make it any kind of a bargain. I'm also thinking that it definitely needs a full tuneup (at least) and maybe tires. It blew a rear tire when I was riding it around yesterday. Scared the bejeesus out of me--sounded just like a pistol shot!


I agree, and have reservations re: used CF. All in all, I'd pass on the bike, but that's JMO. 



Porschefan said:


> One last thing that Johnny pointed out was the fact that a 2008 Ultegra gruppo isn't necessarily "better" than a newer, but lower spec'd set--like 105's or Tiagra, or however that goes. I know this is certainly true with mountain bike gear.


Again, I agree. Trickle down technology is a good thing for the consumer. As an example, I run the previous generation 105 (5600) on my 'go to' bike. I've road tested the new 10 speed Tiagra and found it to be on a par with that bike, so a relative bargain from a price/ performance standpoint. 



Porschefan said:


> BTW, Johnny puts NO pressure on me to buy a new bike and has been great as far as being willing to help me out with analyzing bikes. He really doesn't want any money, but *I'm going to buy a set of mountain bike tires from him* and whatever else I can--really a great guy.


Yeah, and maybe a couple of beers and a pizza. :wink5:


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Another Lemond Buenos Aires*

This showed up on Craigslist in Santa Fe. Looks nice, but I think a 60cm might be too big. I wish it were closer so I could get on and see. Don't know the year yet. Any thoughts?

_Lemond Buenos Aires_

Unless the price comes down on the Zurich, I'm going to pass. I've been itching to respond to PJ's last post, but have gotten busy.

FWIW, I think the red Buenos Aires is a very pretty bike!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> This showed up on Craigslist in Santa Fe. Looks nice, but I think a 60cm might be too big. I wish it were closer so I could get on and see. Don't know the year yet. Any thoughts?
> 
> _Lemond Buenos Aires_
> 
> Unless the price comes down on the Zurich, I'm going to pass. I've been itching to respond to PJ's last post, but have gotten busy.


If you believe your Fit Kit data, the Lemond Buenos Aires is too big for you. Your recommended top tube length is 563mm's and the 61cm Lemond's is 605mm's - too long to still run a moderate length stem to preserve f/r weight distribution. TBH, I think it's far enough off on sizing to not be worth the time to check out.

Re: the Zurich, as I mentioned previously, buying used CF with no warranty is risky. If you stay with buying used, I recommend limiting frame materials to steel or alu - and only alu with later models.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> If you believe your Fit Kit data, the Lemond Buenos Aires is too big for you. Your recommended top tube length is 563mm's and the 61cm Lemond's is 605mm's - too long to still run a moderate length stem to preserve f/r weight distribution. TBH, I think it's far enough off on sizing to not be worth the time to check out.


I just checked those Lemond Geo charts that you pointed me too, and you're correct. If the bike were closer I'd go just to check it out and see what it feels like. It's time to start getting some subjective experience into the equation!

RE Lemond geo in general, from everything I've been told, they never really changed it. I did notice on those charts that the top tube length on the "aeroluminum" models is listed as 10mm longer than the Ti or steel. Must be a misprint.

Since I posted last I had a chance to talk briefly with the owner of the local Trek Superstore (I was looking for geo charts on the later bikes) and he said he was the rep for Lemond bikes back in the day and they were all the same.



> Re: the Zurich, as I mentioned previously, buying used CF with no warranty is risky. If you stay with buying used, I recommend limiting frame materials to steel or alu - and only alu with later models.


I understand. If the owner of the Zurich would sell it for $800, I'd probably risk it though. I have kind of reached a plateau, or maybe "point of exhaustion" is more appropriate. Too much theory and too little hands-on at this point. For example, the Zurich is theoretically just about the right size with a 90mm stem (as I figure it). But it didn't feel "perfect" it felt awkward, as I'm sure almost any bike would.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> I just checked those Lemond Geo charts that you pointed me too, and you're correct. If the bike were closer I'd go just to check it out and see what it feels like. It's time to start getting some subjective experience into the equation!
> 
> RE Lemond geo in general, from everything I've been told, they never really changed it. I did notice on those charts that the top tube length on the "aeroluminum" models is listed as 10mm longer than the Ti or steel. Must be a misprint.
> 
> Since I posted last I had a chance to talk briefly with the owner of the local Trek Superstore (I was looking for geo charts on the later bikes) and he said he was the rep for Lemond bikes back in the day and they were all the same.


I agree that, while researching is a good thing, it's now time for you to get out and ride some bikes. IME that's the best way to pin down your preferences.

FWIW, re: the Lemond aeroluminum, except for some differences in sizing, I'm not seeing the top tube discrepancies that you are. But yes, I think we can be pretty certain Lemond geo didn't change. It was, after all, an integral part of his bikes, and (to his credit) I think he was one of the few pro racers that had a good understanding of bike geo/ fit. 



Porschefan said:


> I understand. If the owner of the Zurich would sell it for $800, I'd probably risk it though. I have kind of reached a plateau, or maybe "point of exhaustion" is more appropriate. Too much theory and too little hands-on at this point. For example, the Zurich is theoretically just about the right size with a 90mm stem (as I figure it). But it didn't feel "perfect" it felt awkward, as I'm sure almost any bike would.


Points taken. Mine are just opinions. This is going to be your bike, so you have to do what's right for you. And (again) I agree that it's time for you to find some bikes and get out and ride them. 

Lastly, I wouldn't get too hung up on the Zurich not feeling quite right even though it may have been sized correctly for you. Sizing has to come first, but fitting and the subsequent tweaks/ dialing in fit get the rider that 'fits like a glove' feeling. When you experience that feeling, I suggest you buy the bike. :thumbsup:


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Possibly, but to retain proper f/r weight distribution you don't want to run a too short stem on a ~medium frame size. Also, to calculate (and compare) the effective top tubes of bikes you need to know their seat tube/ head tube angles, because for every degree of change to STA, ETT changes ~8mm's and HTA ~3mm's. Be advised, if you want to know lots about this bike buying experience, you may need to drop a couple of Excedrins every so often.


So my question: IF you have the mfg's geo chart and they give an ETT measurement of "X," haven't they included the effect of the STA and HTA? If not, that makes things a lot more complex--you have plug in those factors. (Reaching for Excedrin now...)



> Yup, and mid-compacts and triples as well. I scanned through the Steve Hogg's site and think you'll get a fair amount out of it.
> 
> As far as choosing gearing is concerned, simply put, gearing should match a riders fitness and terrain. Since you and the fitter know both those things better than we do, I suggest going with his suggestion and add, when in doubt, go lower rather than higher. Generally speaking, a recreational rider will be more likely to use something like a 34/25 than a 53/11.


Arghhhh...more Excedrin! I read through the article and get the general idea. I'm not quite clear whether one can get close to a compact (50/34) gearing by changing the rear cassette on a standard? I guess one plus point of looking at older used bikes is that they are all going to be triples so that doesn't enter into it so much. 



> For certain, part of choosing the right geo (for you) will not only entail focusing on effective top tube lengths, but also head tube lengths. As far as I can tell, your Fit Kit numbers didn't get to the point of honing in on HTL or stem/ spacer setup, but I'm sure your fitter will address that in due time.


I guess so, or I would hope so. In looking at the Lemond geo charts, though, they don't even list a HTL. They do give an angle.



> As a general reference, if you flexibility is about average, you'll likely be looking at a saddle to bar drop of ~5cm, or ~2 inches.


With my saddle height set up to match the Fit Kit measurement. That's kind of a stable datum there then--aim for a saddle-to-bar drop of 5cm using spacers, stem.



> Yeah, and maybe a couple of beers and a pizza. :wink5:


For sure.

For those shaking their heads out in the audience--- I do realize that there's no way I'm going to figure this all out and then go out an buy the perfect bike. I'm going to try and find more bikes to ride and get a seat of the pants feel. There's a fairly limited supply of used bikes that I would be interested in at all around here though. Seems like one a week or even less shows up. I guess new is always an option too.

In the meantime, I'm thinking of doing the measurements at the Competitive Cyclist's website (*Fit Calculator*)

I read through their article about their fitting tech and it seems to make sense. It's pretty easy to do and might provide some additional and comparative data to what I have now.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Trek Domane*

I saw these bikes at the Trek store the other day and I liked the way they look. They're a new model this year and start @ $1,450. They're using all the right buzz words for me: 

"Smooth," "High Performance," "Stable," "Efficient."  Wow! Gotta get me one of those!

They have that trick pivot point between top and seat tube....does that make any sense? Or just marketing blather?

*Domane 2 series*

The link goes to the the entry-level, alu model. They go up to the CF "6" series too. I think the pic is one of the fancier, expensive models.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> So my question: IF you have the mfg's geo chart and they give an ETT measurement of "X," haven't they included the effect of the STA and HTA? If not, that makes things a lot more complex--you have plug in those factors. (*Reaching for Excedrin now*...)


You'll only need one Excedrin. Effective top tube measurements have ST/ HT angles factored in. It's only when you start comparing two bikes with similar but different geo that you need to adjust for any variations in ST/ HT angles and ETT.

That said, given your past 'thorough approach' to bike buying, I'm confident in saying we'll likely travel that road shortly.  



Porschefan said:


> Arghhhh...more Excedrin! I read through the article and get the general idea. * I'm not quite clear whether one can get close to a compact (50/34) gearing by changing the rear cassette on a standard? * I guess one plus point of looking at older used bikes is that they are all going to be triples so that doesn't enter into it so much.


The answer to the bold statement is... it depends. Most standard cranksets are mated to SS (short cage) RD's. This limits the largest cog that can be run. A way to solve that issue is to go with a GS (mid cage) RD, but then you may as well go with a triple crankset.

There are different ways to look at the old versus new bike quandary. On one hand, you may find some used bikes OE'd with triples, but since compacts are fairly new to the scene, unless the seller did a swap, finding them will be unlikely, IMO.

The advantage to buying new is that 1) generally speaking, lower gearing is gaining in popularity and 2) because of the increased popularity, some of the newer groupsets like Shimano's Tiagra and SRAM's Apex accommodate that trend.




Porschefan said:


> I guess so, or I would hope so. In looking at the Lemond geo charts, though, they don't even list a HTL. They do give an angle.
> 
> With my saddle height set up to match the Fit Kit measurement. That's kind of a stable datum there then--aim for a saddle-to-bar drop of 5cm using spacers, stem.


If you buy used and bring your bike to your LBS for fit assessment you'll get some assistance on this. Same if you opt to buy new, so either way it'll get sorted out. But I do think it's something to keep in mind and ~ 5 cm saddle to bar drop is a decent reference/ starting point. 



Porschefan said:


> For those shaking their heads out in the audience--- I do realize that there's no way I'm going to figure this all out and then go out an buy the perfect bike. I'm going to try and find more bikes to ride and get a seat of the pants feel. There's a fairly limited supply of used bikes that I would be interested in at all around here though. Seems like one a week or even less shows up. I guess new is always an option too.
> 
> In the meantime,* I'm thinking of doing the measurements at the Competitive Cyclist's website* (*Fit Calculator*)
> 
> I read through their article about their fitting tech and it seems to make sense. It's pretty easy to do and might provide some additional and comparative data to what I have now.


Your call, but I advise against it. For one, you're essentially retracing your fitters steps. and (no offense) he's presumably better trained in these matters. Also, you're being the analytical type, I think any variations in recommendations (which are likely) will only serve to confuse you further, and by then you may be out of Excedrin! 

In all seriousness, go find some bikes to ride.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I see the Domane as Trek's response to the popular Giant Defy/ Specialized Roubaix/ Secteur, Felt Z series (relaxed geo/ endurance) bikes. 

Most lay claim to some sort of 'suspension'/ vibration quelling 'system', but sans a controlled study (or at least back to back testing under the same conditions), I think they're near impossible to objectively evaluate.

The one piece of advice I have is if you're considering one or any of these, test ride a few before deciding.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Looking at new bike possibles also*

In the interest of possibly finding a bike sooner rather than later, I'm starting to investigate potential NEW bikes also.

When I visited the Trek store, the new Domane had some appeal and it seems to be getting pretty good reviews. As PJ pointed out it's Trek's answer to the Roubaix/Secteur, and the Giant Defy. I'm going to try and visitthe LBS' that carry those brands and see what I can find out.

In the meantime, I've posted the geo chart for the Domane below. ((Link: *Here)* 

The ETT @ 56.7cm in the size 58, seems to be right in my FitKit wheelhouse. I'm wondering if PJ, or anyone else, sees anything in the geo chart that might point to something other than the 58?

TIA.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> In the interest of possibly finding a bike sooner rather than later, I'm starting to investigate potential NEW bikes also.
> 
> When I visited the Trek store, the new Domane had some appeal and it seems to be getting pretty good reviews. As PJ pointed out it's Trek's answer to the Roubaix/Secteur, and the Giant Defy. I'm going to try and visitthe LBS' that carry those brands and see what I can find out.
> 
> ...


Because your Fit Kit results based recommendations only on measurements and not a static fit done on a bike fitted to a stationary trainer, we can only take the recommended ETT of 563mm's at face value. That given and the fact that you've previously mentioned preferring a moderate saddle to bar drop, a 58cm Domane would be the size to start with.

If you were to get more serious about this particular bike, I'd suggest also trying the 56cm, because while HT length is ~2cm's shorter, frame reach is within 3mm's of the 58, so worth a test ride, IMO.

I suspect you'll still prefer the 58, because it'll have a more moderate saddle to bar drop, but since you're new to this and feeling your way, I think riding more bikes and exposing yourself to slightly different fits will help you determine your preferences. 

Speaking of which, along with the relaxed geo bikes previously mentioned, I'd also recommend the C'dale Synapse, Jamis Endura/ Quest (steel), Specialized Secteur (essentially the alu version of their Roubaix), Bianchi Impulso, Raleigh Revenio... lots of choices.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Because your Fit Kit results based recommendations only on measurements and not a static fit done on a bike fitted to a stationary trainer, we can only take the recommended ETT of 563mm's at face value. That given and the fact that you've previously mentioned preferring a moderate saddle to bar drop, a 58cm Domane would be the size to start with.
> 
> If you were to get more serious about this particular bike, I'd suggest also trying the 56cm, because while HT length is ~2cm's shorter, frame reach is within 3mm's of the 58, so worth a test ride, IMO.
> 
> ...


Thanks, PJ. Helpful info, as always.

Funny, between when I posted the Domane info and now, this just came across the CL wire: *Fuji Acr 2.0 Roubaix*.

Here's the link to the geo and specs on that bike: _*Fuji specs*_

Seller says it's "58cm to the top..." ???? If it's a size 58, it might be a candidate for just getting a bike for $500 and starting to ride while is continue looking for my "upgrade" (see Jeepsouth thread). Supposedly bike retailed for $1,500 +, so I'm a little concerned about it being stolen or something. We'll see. An OK bike with 105 components might be a good temporary thing?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> Thanks, PJ. Helpful info, as always.
> 
> Funny, between when I posted the Domane info and now, this just came across the CL wire: *Fuji Acr 2.0 Roubaix*.
> 
> ...


If the seller measured from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the seat tube and got 58cm's, the bike is a 58cm as Fuji measures them. Assuming the bike is in fact a 2010, in this particular year/ make/ model I think a 56cm would be a better fit for you in reach, but similar to the Domane, you lose ~2cm's in HT length, so there would be a compromise in saddle to bar drop - or you'd possibly run a flipped up stem. 

Conversely, on the 58 you'd probably run a slightly shorter stem, but I don't see that as a deal breaker. If you're able, when you check the bike out, check the stem length. I'd guess it's a 110mm, but would be good to know in the event you pursue this bike. 

I share your concern re: the price. It's essentially a 3 year old bike, but if it's only been ridden very little and is in VG condition, I would say it's somewhat under priced, which almost never happens. 

If you're interested, I suggest getting there sooner rather than later to check the bike out (mechanically and for fit), check that the serial number is readable (usually located under the bottom bracket and if all looks ok, ask that the bike be assessed at your LBS. If the seller hedges, I'd raise the red flag and consider walking.

HTH, and let us know how you make out on this one.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> If the seller measured from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the seat tube and got 58cm's, the bike is a 58cm as Fuji measures them. Assuming the bike is in fact a 2010, in this particular year/ make/ model I think a 56cm would be a better fit for you in reach, but similar to the Domane, you lose ~2cm's in HT length, so there would be a compromise in saddle to bar drop - or you'd possibly run a flipped up stem.
> 
> Conversely, on the 58 you'd probably run a slightly shorter stem, but I don't see that as a deal breaker. If you're able, when you check the bike out, check the stem length. I'd guess it's a 110mm, but would be good to know in the event you pursue this bike.
> 
> ...


On the geo points--is one or the other of the compromises preferable? 

On the sale--I'll try to get there in the morning and see what's up. If I don't post anything after a week, notify the authorities. ;-)


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> On the geo points--is one or the other of the compromises preferable?
> 
> On the sale--I'll try to get there in the morning and see what's up. If I don't post anything After a week, notify the authorities. ;-)


Assuming the geo of the bike in question is (overall) a good match to the rider, I place a priority on reach over drop, because starting with the proper ETT and adding a moderate length stem preserves f/r weight distribution. 

There's a little more latitude in adjusting for drop because (to a point) stem angles can be raised/ lowered and spacers added/ deleted to accommodate the rider without adversely affecting weight distribution. Some don't like the look of flipped up stems, but then we're getting into aesthetics, not proper bike fit.

Take 2 Excedrin before venturing out and you'll be fine. :wink5:


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Update on the Fuji....*

Short version: I agreed to buy the bike for $500.00. Will pick up tomorrow AM. Looking forward to it!

Long version: I got up early to call the seller to arrange to see the Fuji. Before placing the call, I Googled his name/email address to see what I might find out. I was surprised and taken aback to discover the seller at two separate websites: "Mugshots.com," and another site that combs public records for police bookings and posts them. The pix were, to say the least uncomplimentary and a bit scary. On the basis of that and the fact that the bike seems to be appreciably under-priced, I decided to just forget about it and move on. I spent the morning doing chores household stuff. Early in the afternoon, the thought of getting a bargain got the best of me and I decided to call the seller and at least meet up and see the bike. I thought it might not even be the same person in the mug shots...and the charge on the mugshots was "violating probation" -- at least it wasn't "violating PAROLE." 

I met the seller at a local McD's and the bad news was that it was, indeed, the guy in mugshots. Good news was that he had cleaned up a lot and didn't seem to be much of a desperado or bad ass; to the contrary he was a fairly pleasant guy.

I examined the bike and rode around the parking lot. As I've mentioned already any road bike feels awfully strange to me, but this one felt at least as good as the Zurich or the Secteur that I had previously ridden around a bit.

I decided not to confront the guy on the mugshots--didn't see much point in that. But I did examine the serial # and I did ask him point-blank whether he had any cause to believe the bike was stolen. He told me that he bought it last year in Colorado for $600 and thus the low price. The serial # had no signs of tampering.

I told him I wanted to take it to the LBS to make sure it was a good enough fit and he had no problem with that. In fact, he put up with me trying to squeeze in a few minutes with the bike shop owner. The shop was SUPER BUSY all day. When I got the OK from the shop to bring it in for a quick inspection after closing time, the seller cooperated and met me at the shop on short notice.

Both shop owner happened to be there and the gist of the conversation was that they thought it was definitely an appropriate size (58cm) and a good deal. After the deal is done tomorrow, I'll take it back there to have it tuned up and get it fitted. I think it's going to require a shorter stem. It's got the stock 110 on it. I don't think it needs much in the way of a tune up either--it shifted very nicely in the parking lot ;-). Cosmetically it's in VG shape---I'd estimate about an 8.5/10.

I'm pretty confident that I can recover the full price when I want to "upgrade." I might even pull a "Jeepsouth" and be able to make a small profit! 

More later.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> Short version: I agreed to buy the bike for $500.00. Will pick up tomorrow AM. Looking forward to it!
> 
> More later.


Wow, you had quite a day. FWIW, I think you handled things very well and are continuing to do so. Gotta laugh, though. You haven't even gotten this bike yet and are already talking about upgrading.  

By all means update us on your progress, but from what you've offered re: the test ride and the LBS's opinions, I think all indications are that the fitting should go well.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Wow, you had quite a day. FWIW, I think you handled things very well and are continuing to do so. Gotta laugh, though. *You haven't even gotten this bike yet and are already talking about upgrading.*


Well, it IS a disease, you know. And I'll admit to having a pretty bad case of it. OTOH, I just file it under "hobbies" and I feel better. :devil:



> By all means update us on your progress, but from what you've offered re: the test ride and the LBS's opinions, I think all indications are that the fitting should go well.


RE updating this thread.... Now that I have a bike, a whole bunch of other questions are coming up. One of the first is shoes and pedals (I've always ridden my Yeti with flats). I thought about veering off on those tangents here, but I wonder if it might be more advisable to start separate threads as these things come up (and search through the archives, of course)?

I seem to have whittled the audience on this thread down to PJ, basically anyway--not that that's a bad thing. One could do a lot worse than just following his suggestions!

I'm happy to continue updating this thread as to matters of fit, etc. and then I envision (ha,ha) segueing into the "next bike". After I start getting used to this bike, I'll have some kind of baseline to compare others to, and I can start visiting bike shops for test rides with a clear conscience. Not to mention that after a few weeks I hope not to look like a complete doofus riding around the parking lot.

Here's a few pix of the bike--no adjustments made yet. Taking to shop later this week to get started with fitting.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Nice bike, congrats!! :thumbsup:

Your call on starting a thread on clipless pedals, but FWIW one is started almost weekly here, so a search should get you some hits. 

Still, if there's something of concern or that's not covered in them, there's no harm in starting another thread.

I've posted this before, but in the event you missed it:
Bike 101-Clipless Pedals


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Nice bike, congrats!! :thumbsup:
> 
> Your call on starting a thread on clipless pedals, but FWIW one is started almost weekly here, so a search should get you some hits.
> 
> ...


I've saved that link in my Bike Stuff folder. I did skim through it before, but I'll study it now. The pedals on this bike are cheap Forte "combo" pedals and I do have a pair of cheap Forte (redundant) SPD shoes so I can play around with those.

Before I even bought the bike last week there was a local bike enthusiast selling off a bunch of stuff and I picked up two pairs of Speedplay pedals/cleats: the Frogs and the "Light Action." Both are in almost new shape, so I can fool around with those too. Both pair for $75. I'll search around to see what there is about Speedplays on the forums. I actually did some research on them when I looked at the Secteur, which came with a pair of SP Zero's. I'm thinking if I like or get used to clipless I can use the Frog's for the Yeti, keep my SPD shoes. Or sell if I want to stay with flats.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

You'll figure it out. From what you offer here, I'd say you're halfway there.

One thing to consider is cleat setup. Being an integral part of bike fit, if it's imminent you're going clipless, if you could decide what you're going with prior to your fitting, that would be a plus because the fitter can then incorporate cleat set up with the fitting.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> You'll figure it out. From what you offer here, I'd say you're halfway there.
> 
> One thing to consider is cleat setup. Being an integral part of bike fit, if it's imminent you're going clipless, if you could decide what you're going with prior to your fitting, that would be a plus because the fitter can then incorporate cleat set up with the fitting.


I'll bring it up when I'm there. Key piece of info is whether I have to commit to a shoe that's compatible with the Speedplays or not--if I end up hating Speedplays I'd like to have a shoe that would accept other styles.

In the meantime, this will be a good opportunity to practice with the existing pedals and my SPD shoes.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> I'll bring it up when I'm there. Key piece of info is whether I have to commit to a shoe that's compatible with the Speedplays or not--*if I end up hating Speedplays I'd like to have a shoe that would accept other styles.*
> 
> In the meantime, this will be a good opportunity to practice with the existing pedals and my SPD shoes.


They're out there. I believe Specialized are, but there are others. That would be something to discuss with your fitter.

My suggestion on shoe selection is pretty simple. Don't cheap out, meaning, get comfortable, well designed shoes with stiff soles. Insoles with arch support, metatarsal buttons and varus wedges are a plus, IMO.


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