# How far back is too far?



## Wild Bill (Apr 2, 2004)

I know this has been talked about before. (KOPS)
But this neutral position is not for everyone. The type of riding you do will vary this position. The type of seatpost you use will also change this.
That said, I would like to know "how far back can you put the saddle before it is too far"?
So many times I see other riders with their saddles back as far as they can put them? FSA even has a seatpost that will set your saddle back 2".
So I am just a little curious as to why this is done?
Thanks to all that reply.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Old school saddle positioning was to slam the saddle back on the rails as far as it would go. I think Greg Lemond mentioned this in a book he wrote. One of the first things that his soigneur did when he went to Europe was look at his position and then raise the seat post and slam the saddle back.


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## johnny99 (Apr 2, 2004)

If your saddle is too far back, you may have a hard time pedalling while riding with your hands on the drops. You can work around that by raising your handlebar, at the expense of aerodynamics.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

hey, whatever works


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*The range*

The typical range for road riding is KOPS +1/-2 cm. Moving forward helps your spin and would tend to be favored by people with short femurs. Moving back gives you more leverage and would tend to be favored by people with long femurs. Even so, it's pretty much personal preference. It's probably true that taller people would see less impact from changes, since each cm of movement would be a smaller fraction of their total leg length and body dimensions.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

*The Green Machine*

That photo is hilarious!


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## Dinosaur (Jan 29, 2004)

*I've read..*

I can't remember where I read this-if your saddle is too far back (or too far forward) it will shorten your stroke. For me- if I am too far back my lower back will start to bother me as it puts more strain on my lower back and hams. If I am too far forward my knees will let me know right away. I sort of forgot about kops and let my body be my guide for setting saddle positon. I like what Peter White says about saddle position, it's about balance.
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/
For what it's worth, if you start messing with your saddle positon, do changes in very small increments or it will lead to injury. I think the deciding factor is when you are riding and don't think about your saddle/position and just think about riding, you have it right.


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## Hopi4 (Apr 10, 2003)

*Old school methods*



Utah CragHopper said:


> Old school saddle positioning was to slam the saddle back on the rails as far as it would go. I think Greg Lemond mentioned this in a book he wrote. One of the first things that his soigneur did when he went to Europe was look at his position and then raise the seat post and slam the saddle back.


Did Greg Lemond ultimately believe this was good or bad move? Thanks.


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## Hopi4 (Apr 10, 2003)

*Old school*



Utah CragHopper said:


> Old school saddle positioning was to slam the saddle back on the rails as far as it would go. I think Greg Lemond mentioned this in a book he wrote. One of the first things that his soigneur did when he went to Europe was look at his position and then raise the seat post and slam the saddle back.


Did Greg Lemond ultimately believe this was a good or bad move? Thanks.


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## cbass94 (May 19, 2004)

What's KOPS?


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

*Kops*



cbass94 said:


> What's KOPS?


Knee Over Pedal Spindle. The idea is to drop a plumb line from the front of the tibial tubercle, the bump in the tibia just below the kneecap. This line should pass through the axis of the pedal spindle for a theoretically perfect fit. I'm not sure what I'm suppose to do since my bone doctor moved my tibial tubercles over and screwed them down. I've got a big knot over one of the screw heads, kind of gross looking.

Al


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

Al1943 said:


> Knee Over Pedal Spindle. The idea is to drop a plumb line from the front of the tibial tubercle, the bump in the tibia just below the kneecap. This line should pass through the axis of the pedal spindle for a theoretically perfect fit. I'm not sure what I'm suppose to do since my bone doctor moved my tibial tubercles over and screwed them down. I've got a big knot over one of the screw heads, kind of gross looking.
> 
> Al


And KOPS is done with the pedal at the 9 O'Clock position (straight forward, parallel with the ground.


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## ramboorider (Sep 25, 2003)

Dinosaur said:


> I can't remember where I read this-if your saddle is too far back (or too far forward) it will shorten your stroke. For me- if I am too far back my lower back will start to bother me as it puts more strain on my lower back and hams. If I am too far forward my knees will let me know right away. I sort of forgot about kops and let my body be my guide for setting saddle positon. I like what Peter White says about saddle position, it's about balance.
> http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/
> For what it's worth, if you start messing with your saddle positon, do changes in very small increments or it will lead to injury. I think the deciding factor is when you are riding and don't think about your saddle/position and just think about riding, you have it right.


I've always like Peter's article about fit also and had essentially used it to guide myself into a position that worked for me for several years and many many thousands of miles. My saddle was relatively low but WAAAAAY back there. Last fall, I had a fit session with Tom Kellog. After looking at me on a couple of my bikes for about 30-45 minutes, he suggested a pretty radical change in my position. He basically told me this position, after several months of adaptation would make me a much more efficient rider and comfort was the question. He identified a position that was a full inch higher and nearly 2cm farther forward with a slightly higher and longer stem. I moved things a few mm at a time until I got to the position Tom recommended and its been a revelation, to say the least. I feel really phenominal on the bike and can tell I'm riding stronger despite my 10 pounds of winter fat and general lack of conditioning this time of year. I don't have much stamina in this position yet, and it'll probably take several months to fully adapt to it, but I can't wait to be riding in this position in June and July when my conditioning is good.

So, yeah, you can get really comfortable using Peter's method, but it never hurts to talk to an expert also - they got where they are for a reason.

-Ray


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*what's way back???*

Curious what STA, the type of seatpost and saddle used, (and was it slammed all the way back) to estimate how far way back is. With an Eston EC-70 or FSA K-force post, you can get a lot further back than is possible with a trditional seatpost.


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## Wild Bill (Apr 2, 2004)

*Too far back benifit*



Wild Bill said:


> I know this has been talked about before. (KOPS)
> But this neutral position is not for everyone. The type of riding you do will vary this position. The type of seatpost you use will also change this.
> That said, I would like to know "how far back can you put the saddle before it is too far"?
> So many times I see other riders with their saddles back as far as they can put them? FSA even has a seatpost that will set your saddle back 2".
> ...


I would still like to hear an explanation on having your saddle all the way back.
I can understand with a seat post that has its clamp straight on the top, but what about the FSA and the Easton seat posts? They are just two examples of posts that go beyond the normal set back post such as; Campy Record or Dura Ace.
If I see 10 riders 7-9 of them will have the saddle back as far as it will go!
I am very curious as to the logic and reasoning of this.


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## khill (Mar 4, 2004)

*Reasonable Fit Range*



Wild Bill said:


> If I see 10 riders 7-9 of them will have the saddle back as far as it will go! I am very curious as to the logic and reasoning of this.


I suspect it's because a lot of riders like frames which are at the small end of their reasonable fit range. 

Generally speaking, there's probably a 2-3cm range of workable frame sizes for an individual. For example, I can usually fit myself to anything between 55cm and 58cm (depending on the frame geometry and builder, of course). 

A lot of people believe that the smaller end of this range is best since it allows a big saddle to bar drop and there is a theory that a smaller frame is stiffer due to the smaller triangle sizes. People who like the smaller frame sizes usually run longer stems and push their saddles all the way back. 

You can use the fit calculator at competitivecyclist.com to see three different fittings based on different philosophies. That might help demonstrate how one person can fit on different sizes of frame and why you might choose a smaller or larger size to achieve a specific goal.

Of course, the Rivendell fit philosophy believes it's better to use a frame on the large end of this reasonable fit range. Just as many people like those sizes as well. It's all individual preference.

- khill


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*frame size shouldn't affect setback..*

Unless a rider is mistakenly moving the saddle back to make up for a too-short TT, the frame size has nothing to do with saddle setback. Saddle setback should only used to achieve a certain position relative to the BB. If a frame has a 73 degree STA for instance, it doesn't matter if the frame is a 52 or 58cm. Once the seatpost is set to the right height, which would be the same, regardless of frame size, the setback would be the same on both sizes of frame.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*the reasoning..*

The usual idea for moving the saddle further back is to permit the application of more torque to the pedals. There has to be a limit to the advantage, whether real or perceived. When I was trying to climb long mountain routes and remain seated in a 39/25 gear, I found that moving the saddle further back did allow me to stay in this gear longer before I finally had to cave in and ride standing. I moved my saddle about 2-3cm further back that it had been for the previous 19 years. I"m still using this position for the mountains, but I also have a more sensible triple crank so I can remain seated on anything I've encountered.


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## Dinosaur (Jan 29, 2004)

*"All the way back"*

I can only speak for myself. I ride a bike with a 73 STA. Depending on which saddle I use (Selle Italia Flite for one) I can get back about 10cm (tip of saddle to center of bb). I found (for me) this was too extreme as I was using my hams and lower back muscles more and I found myself creeping forward on my saddle. Now I'm about 7cm back and I can slide forward or back depending on what I am doing. I am now using a San Marco Regal, which is a long saddle with lot's of room to scoot back and forth.

Greg LeMond rode with his saddle slammed way back (as much as 11cm per Training For Cycling, Daivis Phinny and Connie Carpenter). I was just watching the 1990 TDF and Greg used a San Marco Regal and a lot of times he rode forward with a lot of saddle exposed behind him.

I also found that saddle positon and handlebar positon go hand in hand (or butt to hand). If I change saddles I have to change the angle of my bars by a mm or so.

I still think it's more about balance and tinkering around enough to find out what works and what doesn't.

I give thought also to moving my saddle forward a tad and going to a longer stem, but for now I think I will leave it alone. I've busted seat binder posts by messing with my saddle positon so much. Old retired guys have too much time on their hands to think about stuff like this...


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## ramboorider (Sep 25, 2003)

C-40 said:


> Curious what STA, the type of seatpost and saddle used, (and was it slammed all the way back) to estimate how far way back is. With an Eston EC-70 or FSA K-force post, you can get a lot further back than is possible with a trditional seatpost.


I was using Aliante saddles and American Classic seatposts. I have a pubic bone height (cyclists inseam) of 86cm and a saddle height now at a bit over 77cm (using Look pedals and cleats). I previously had a lower saddle height with the tip of the saddle well over 11cm behind the BB spindle on one bike and about 10cm behind on my "more aggressive" bike. After getting Tom's input, I have my saddle up over 77cm with slightly less than 8cm of setback from BB center to tip of saddle. Surprisingly to me, my KOPS position is still a couple of centimeters behind the bb (almost as far as it had been) because as you move the saddle up higher. it brings your knee further back at the front of the stroke, which evidently compensated for moving the saddle forward by so much.

-Ray


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## TrailNut (May 11, 2004)

*30mm set-back seatpost*

my road race bike has a standard 55.5 Viner sizing and I have my saddle mounted on the mid rail...all's well.

on my smallish top-tube length (22.7" ?) 18" Kona xc mountain bike hardtail i have installed a 30mm setback ti. seatpost, along with 100mm inverted stem with mid-rail mounting of saddle...seems like climbing's a wee bit more difficult, but such percived trade-off's more than makes up for in sprinting and in descending performance...where MTBing gets really fun, even at xc races.... I'm now looking for a longer saddle then my current Selle Ti. Gel Glite, but that also has good nose padding for when i'm scooted up and climbing.


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