# Question for the active racers



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

No, not trolling. I do request responses from those who have raced at least in the last 2 years or plan on starting. Not that I don't appreciate non-racers.....

Has this incident made you not want to race? Would you boycott sanctioned races? 

There is zero change to my plans and I don't plan on racing any less. I heard some local guys claim they were going to only do unsanctioned races, but I don't know how likely they were to race USAC since I didn't really see them much before that.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

No. Still going to race. I work my ass off and it's kind of my outlet from the insanity at work. I have a pretty wide network of guys I know who don't plan on doing anything different either. I just heard a rumor that our region (Arizona) is considering paying $6000 to fund 10 random drug tests. I don't have any other details but I hope they fund it and fully support the effort.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I kinda wonder if Nebraska will do any testing. I kinda doubt it, but don't really think anyone is using EPO. Possibly testosterone as much as the TV suggests replacing "low t". 

Hopefully if they do testing, they'll allow me to pee before the race when I have nervous bladder.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I kinda wonder if Nebraska will do any testing. I kinda doubt it, but don't really think anyone is using EPO. Possibly testosterone as much as the TV suggests replacing "low t".
> 
> Hopefully if they do testing, they'll allow me to pee before the race when I have nervous bladder.


I bet there's more guys on testosterone and maybe steroids than people want to believe. I've heard of too many down here and it really pisses me off. I simply can not understand why they do it? Fing douchbags.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I hear rumors of every kind of substance use down here in south Florida and it pisses me off too. I wonder if some of the brawling that goes on in the pelotons of cash races are t-fueled. No effect on me, as I ride strictly paniagua (and caffeine).


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## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

Yep I have raced and am doing it in 2013. Nope I'm not bothered in any way about the possible testing. Ha I don't even drink, bring on the pee cups!


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Have raced for the past 3 years, more seriously last year, and I don't plan on stopping. It would be a shame if this whole situation kills amateur racing in the US.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Supposed testing in NYC next year! I'm psyched! I can't wait to see which douchy 40+ doctors stop showing up.

I would have raced either way. Doping is what it is and you kinda assume certain people aren't on the straight and narrow. I've had my success and my failures don't have a lot to do with how doped up someone else is. Heck! I even beat that David Anthony creep a few times.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I'll go ahead and be Mr. Clueless.

Which incident?

For me, racing is something I do because I enjoy it, it gives some rhythm and meaning to my season, and it gives me something specific to try to be better at. I like to think that I'm not lining up with people who are cheating, but it's hard for me to imagine something other than, say, a lot of locals getting caught that would really demotivate me.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

I race and I will continue to race regardless of the current situation in pro cycling. I don't think there is much that the amateur racer is going to be able to do now to change the sport to make it cleaner in the Pro Peleton. The whole idea of not purchasing a license like Greg Lemond recommended is just plain silly. I am NOT going to punish myself because of others wrong doings.


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## kevhogaz (Jul 28, 2007)

woodys737 said:


> I bet there's more guys on testosterone and maybe steroids than people want to believe. I've heard of too many down here and it really pisses me off. * I **simply can not understand why they do it*? Fing douchbags.


 It's easier than working for it, and you can get faster, a lot quicker!! I bet I get pulled to be tested, since I have that kind of luck!! You racing the "Valley of the Sun" stage race in Feb.


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## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

I know a female racer with a pretty decent mustache. Wonder if they will test her.:shrug:


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## username (Dec 21, 2007)

I race in oregon, don't need a USA license. Would love to see the US cycling authority shaken up given their connection to Armstrong


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

No but I race mostly mountain bikes. And my races are mostly not sanctioned. I do want to do mountain bike Nats. next year so I guess I will be beeing in a cup. Im no pro I don't think dope is a real problem at my leveal. Im vary compedtive with all the guys I'm racing with. Any one of us can win on any given day.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

spade2you;4190778Has [B said:


> this incident[/B] made you not want to race? Would you boycott sanctioned races?


By "this incident", you mean the investigation by USADA? and all of the other fall out?

I can't begin to fathom how that would make me / make us not want to race locally in sanctioned races. So I'm to punish myself for the misdeeds of the pro's? 

Is there some underground movement that is going to rise up against the local race promoters? 
And the objective would be what? Try and cripple USAC? 

We have local dopers, everyone knows who they are. Their time is coming.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

No, not at all. I will still be racing all the elite level races I raced last season and plan to add more on. I will not boycott USADA, WADA, or USAC for going after dopers. 

Ive raced against past dopers. I have no use in suspecting that they are doping now. I don't want to become cynical and suspect everyone that is winning a race over me is doping. If they get caught Ill then get pissed at them. Becoming cynical will only succeed in ruining the sport I take so much joy in.

Sh!tty god awful stuff happened. Lets learn from it, improve the sport and move on with our lives.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

kevhogaz said:


> It's easier than working for it, and you can get faster, a lot quicker!! I bet I get pulled to be tested, since I have that kind of luck!! You racing the "Valley of the Sun" stage race in Feb.


I can't understand why in terms of the long term negative health aspects...

If you are pulled to test that means you won, so if clean more power to you! I don't think random means pick any entrant and test. Only the winners I assume. 

No to VOS. I was selected to be a chaperone for my kids 6th grade trip to Catalina Island that week end. Hopefully TBC and some other out of state races fit into my schedule though.


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## durianrider (Sep 26, 2009)

Ive raced in the same races as guys that tested poz for test here in Radelaide Australia and in Belgium.

Doesnt piss me off at all cos its a choice everyone has. I don't even race with caffeine. I race for health and fitness vs thrashing my adrenals.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Bring on the piss cup! What page is the banned substance in the handbook?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Which incident?


Some n00b named Lance or something. I think he rides a Trek



woodys737 said:


> I bet there's more guys on testosterone and maybe steroids than people want to believe. I've heard of too many down here and it really pisses me off. I simply can not understand why they do it? Fing douchbags.


In their defense, I think the medical community seems to be pushing it. I'm a hospital pharmacist and part of my job involves medication histories. I'm seeing a lot more supplemental testosterone use than I did 4-5 years ago. Granted, I can honestly say that the guys aren't racers. Seems to be a lot more common on guys 50+.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

I don't race anymore because there aren't any races where I live but...

I came to the (correct) conclusion years ago about what was going on in cycling and it didn't impact my desire to race one iota.


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## yosarian9 (Mar 15, 2010)

kevhogaz said:


> *It's easier than working for it, and you can get faster, a lot quicker!*! I bet I get pulled to be tested, since I have that kind of luck!! You racing the "Valley of the Sun" stage race in Feb.


I though the only way they "get faster, a lot quicker" is by working harder and more often, which the drugs allow them to do, but you seem to imply that they dont have to work for it.
Hows that?
Are you saying that drugs automatically make users "faster, quicker:" because I though drugs give users the ability to work more and harder... which makes them faster, quicker.

Do drugs not "give you the potential, what work you do with it is up to you."?


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

yosarian9 said:


> I though the only way they "get faster, a lot quicker" is by working harder and more often, which the drugs allow them to do, but you seem to imply that they dont have to work for it.
> Hows that?
> Are you saying that drugs automatically make users "faster, quicker:" because I though drugs give users the ability to work more and harder... which makes them faster, quicker.
> 
> Do drugs not "give you the potential, what work you do with it is up to you."?


Is this some PED user sympathy I hear? DRUG TEST THIS MAN AT ONCE! *raises pitch fork*


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Some n00b named Lance or something. I think he rides a Trek


Oh, that guy.

He and I race on totally different circuits. Facetiousness aside, he and I do race on totally different circuits. I guess I do wonder some about the degree of drug use and justifiability of the prescriptions going on in my region, but I also wonder if getting into a lot of drug testing in amateur cycling will just blow up USAC. I guess I don't care for USAC per se all that much, but I'd be sad if it killed my local racing scene.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

Fireform said:


> I hear rumors of every kind of substance use down here in south Florida and it pisses me off too. I wonder if some of the brawling that goes on in the pelotons of cash races are t-fueled. No effect on me, as I ride strictly paniagua (and caffeine).


Funny you should bring up caffeine. I'm mentoring a friend's son who just started high school and joined the mountain bike team. He says that riders are routinely searched at races (backpacks, jerseys, saddle bags, etc) for anything caffeinated as they consider it a banned substance that kids can buy. 

Oh, and by "mentoring", this means I allow him on the Sunday ride, allow my crew to beat the crap out of him with pace, yell at him and make him buy the coffee at the end. We all have to start somewhere... ;o)


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

spade2you said:


> Has this incident made you not want to race?


what "incident" do you mean? the whole Lance saga?

answer: no. that's as far away from my life as the NFL is from the local flag football league.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

I raced against dopers in the past (FU Pete Cannell) and its didn't stop me. I don't worry too much about who might be doping in my fields (P12 and M123). I would be racing next season regardless of all this except I decided to stop racing at he end of the season because I wasn't enjoying racing anymore.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

I'll still race because I love racing.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I already have my race season planned out through April. 

My region tested 17 athletes at the cost of almost $7000 last year. We were able to catch...wait for it...zero dopers. The plan is to test more this year. 

Who will pay for the testing? That's the rub. Maybe USADA, maybe our region. Maybe we'll split the cost. If each sanctioned race raises the entry by $1 we'll raise over $30,000. That should cover about 75 tests if the costs are the same. 

Again, what if we test 75 people and catch two dopers, one who took something legally prescribed, but never got TUEs and one who took something on purpose. Can we then say the program is successful? What if we catch zero? Can we then say it is successful? 

What about the ease at which controls are avoided? They say it's an intelligence test. I did 30+ road races and 20-25 races on the track last year. I cannot--not for one second--vouch for the intelligence of the racers in my region. But I can say that someone properly motivated, someone who read Tyler Hamilton's book, could likely avoid the "glow" period.

If we don't catch anyone this year (we didnt' catch anyone last year) can we say that our region is clean? 

How do we measure success? And just how do we measure deterrence? How do we know if it is money well spent?


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

wesb321 said:


> I know a female racer with a pretty decent mustache. Wonder if they will test her.:shrug:


Aunt Bunny?


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

yosarian9 said:


> I though the only way they "get faster, a lot quicker" is by working harder and more often, which the drugs allow them to do, but you seem to imply that they dont have to work for it.
> Hows that?
> Are you saying that drugs automatically make users "faster, quicker:" because I though drugs give users the ability to work more and harder... which makes them faster, quicker.
> 
> Do drugs not "give you the potential, what work you do with it is up to you."?


Too many people seem to not understand that. They think that PEDs are a magic pill that just automatically allows enhanced performance, no matter how lazy you are. All the HGH in the world wouldn't let me hit a baseball 500' if I couldn't put the sweet spot of the bat on a ball coming at me at 95 mph. I'm never gonna run a sub 10 second 100 meters. And EPO won't let me run a 2:05 marathon.

Nothing makes me laugh as much as seeing a career .260 hitter like Mike Jacobs test positive. It's like, dude, who are you kidding?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> I already have my race season planned out through April.
> 
> My region tested 17 athletes at the cost of almost $7000 last year. We were able to catch...wait for it...zero dopers. The plan is to test more this year.
> 
> ...


Hopefully it's not used widely enough to make the prices go up too much. A few races went up a few bucks over the years and the public outcry was a little annoying. 

Nonetheless, I think this means spending a lot of money to catch a few riders and will mean some dude loses 14th place in a Cat 5 crit or something.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

My desire to race has nothing to do with the Pros. It also has nothing to do with others doping. I competed in bodybuilding and didn't care about other guys doping. I'm doing my own thing and don't care about what others do. Maybe I don't compete against guys that are doping so much that they are killing me.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Is it unfair to hold amateurs to the same standard as professionals? 

What about amateurs who take supplements under innocuous, innocent-sounding names, such as crack?

Belgian Amateur Champion Receives One-year Ban | Cyclingnews.com

Banned from competition until July 1, 2011, Taelman would have liked to take his case to court but lacks the money. Even the Belgian agency for food safety supports his argument that the Methylhexanamine came from a supplement by the name of *Crack*. "I especially looked for a safe supplement and my pharmacist said that *Crack* did not contain any doping," said Taelman. "How can I, along with thousands of recreational sportsmen, know that *Crack* contains Methylhexanamine?"


_______________________________________________________________


Jokes aside, we all know someone who *might* be on something. Maybe you're already thinking of someone in your mind. The guy who regularly beats you to the signpost in the sprints. Or the guy who is always fit. That cannot be natural. _Just what is he on?_ 

Luckily, we don't need evidence to report friends and family. We can anonymously report suspect riders. USADA and USACycling have hotlines. I've already reported two teammates.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)




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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Not really. The costs and long drives to events are the biggest issues for me. The random chuckleheads doping with hormone replacement et al don't matter.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Fogdweller said:


> Funny you should bring up caffeine. I'm mentoring a friend's son who just started high school and joined the mountain bike team. He says that riders are routinely searched at races (backpacks, jerseys, saddle bags, etc) for anything caffeinated as they consider it a banned substance that kids can buy.


Banned by whom? It's a scary thought that there are "educators" in this country who seriously believe that a 15 year old kid can get a significant performance boost from a 12 oz can of Coke. 

What's next? Banning Snickers bars because someone thinks that a sugar high will put a high school athlete over the top in a race? How about bananas?


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

mpre53 said:


> Banned by whom? It's a scary thought that there are "educators" in this country who seriously believe that a 15 year old kid can get a significant performance boost from a 12 oz can of Coke.
> 
> What's next? Banning Snickers bars because someone thinks that a sugar high will put a high school athlete over the top in a race? How about bananas?


Exactly. No one should be allowed to eat one week prior to racing... we don't need tests for drugs, we need tests for food! I don't want to race against someone eating healthier than me.


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

It doesn't discourage me. Amateur racing is still very clean and of those who may dabble in PEDs I suspect their use is haphazard enough to net them little gain. I regularly see people at the amateur level who win by being smarter. Results don't correspond exactly with engine size but there is enough inefficiency in the application of said engines (hopeless attacks, poorly time moves, nervous energy, etc) that brain beats brawn pretty often. I just don't see PEDs significantly affecting the amateur racing scene.

Besides, what kind of message does it say when the honest people walk away from the sport? If doping is happening I would rather get out there, ride a smart race and hand their asses to them. That's better than abstaining.


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## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

Fogdweller said:


> Funny you should bring up caffeine. I'm mentoring a friend's son who just started high school and joined the mountain bike team. He says that riders are routinely searched at races (backpacks, jerseys, saddle bags, etc) for anything caffeinated as they consider it a banned substance that kids can buy.
> 
> Oh, and by "mentoring", this means I allow him on the Sunday ride, allow my crew to beat the crap out of him with pace, yell at him and make him buy the coffee at the end. We all have to start somewhere... ;o)


A few years back a guy at work was dating a girl who was on our local high school track team. They on race days were not allowed any caffeine, chocolate, sodas and other everyday items. We are known very well around the world for our track teams and coaches here so it doesn't surprise me they are so strict.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

So caffeine is on a forbidden list somewhere? Odd. As a youngster, I tended to avoid caffeine. Now as I get older, I'm increasingly more dependent on that nectar in the morning.


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## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

spade2you said:


> So caffeine is on a forbidden list somewhere? Odd. As a youngster, I tended to avoid caffeine. Now as I get older, I'm increasingly more dependent on that nectar in the morning.



It is here Fayetteville, Ar. For cycling the only 'rules' I have heard are on the back of the USAC racing license


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

spade2you said:


> So caffeine is on a forbidden list somewhere? Odd. As a youngster, I tended to avoid caffeine. Now as I get older, I'm increasingly more dependent on that nectar in the morning.


Caffeine above some limit was banned in cycling at some point, but it looks like it's not on WADA's prohibited substances list.

2012 Prohibited List - World Anti-Doping Agency


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

LOL. If caffeine is doping, then call me Doper McDoper. I probably won't stop drinking coffee in the morning either.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I don't take adderal or ritalin. But many adults do. 

I wonder if there is an amphetamine TUE for those with ADHD.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Fogdweller said:


> Oh, and by "mentoring", this means I allow him on the Sunday ride, allow my crew to beat the crap out of him with pace, yell at him and make him buy the coffee at the end. We all have to start somewhere... ;o)


I like your style:thumbsup:
I'm sure he has quickly realized that respect is earned. So many youngsters think respect is some sort of birthright. 

20 yrs from now he will think back to all you had to teach him, no doubt while he is 'mentoring' another youngster.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> How do we measure success? And just how do we measure deterrence? How do we know if it is money well spent?


No real way to measure those parameters. However, testing most certainly bolsters the aspect of deterrence.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> I don't take adderal or ritalin. But many adults do.
> 
> I wonder if there is an amphetamine TUE for those with ADHD.


Funny thing is, instead of getting them hyper wired and agitated, it seems to have a calming effect on kids with ADHD.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Luckily, we don't need evidence to report friends and family. We can anonymously report suspect riders. USADA and USACycling have hotlines. I've already reported two teammates.


Dang!.............. your own teammates? That's pretty cut throat. 
No actually I applaud you actions. 

I was very close to doing the same to a guy I race against, but then he just vanished. Completely gone, no record on any USAC road race results. I think he knew someone was about to drop a bomb in his neighborhood.

You know, that's crazy, you look just like Jim Carey!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

metoou2 said:


> Dang!.............. your own teammates?


No. 


> I was very close to doing the same to a guy I race against


Fascinating. On what grounds? 


> then he just vanished. Completely gone, no record on any USAC road race results


Is it possible that he was merely a figment of your imagination?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

good 'ol Local Hero...............

I was trying to see if you were Trolling. Got my answer.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Will the LA vs USADA saga keep me from racing? Good lord no.
And while I understand where Mr Lemond is coming from -and agree w/ him- I will still hand over my money to USAC- at least for some races. The majority of my racing will be "non-sanctioned" (the horror!!).

I actually think there'll be more fallout from LA vs USADA in bike shops than race courses. (Yes, I understand that may eventually lead to fewer people racing)


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

metoou2 said:


> good 'ol Local Hero...............
> 
> I was trying to see if you were Trolling. Got my answer.


And I thought I was being so clever. Then you came along and outfoxed the fox! 

So, were you really thinking about reporting another racer? If so, why?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

man you are hilarious..................
how many boats have you bought for your Therapist?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

metoou2 said:


> how many boats have you bought for your Therapist?


Reported.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

so then you Troll and then you bully............Bravo!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Pro's doping has little effect on my racing, which I seldom do these days. A far larger effect is lack of interesting events. Would also love to see a Battenkill type race around here. Looking to start doing some MTB races. Still need to have some kind of competitive outlet. 

A few weeks back I was riding with an old friend. He is a former Pro and is in great shape even though he is almost 50. I asked him why he wasn't racing as he clearly in great shape. 
"Too many dopers" He said the Masters fields were just filled with them and he had no desire to be part of it.....even though he knew he could kick most of their asses.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Please explain a 'Battenkill type race'.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Pro's doping has little effect on my racing, which I seldom do these days. A far larger effect is lack of interesting events. Would also love to see a Battenkill type race around here. Looking to start doing some MTB races. Still need to have some kind of competitive outlet.
> 
> A few weeks back I was riding with an old friend. He is a former Pro and is in great shape even though he is almost 50. I asked him why he wasn't racing as he clearly in great shape.
> "Too many dopers" He said the Masters fields were just filled with them and he had no desire to be part of it.....even though he knew he could kick most of their asses.


I've heard the same thing from washed up racers in my area.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

As long as I can get a TUE for my Touretts meds ... it wouldn't bother me at all ... Though, I'm pretty sure anti-convulsants are not on the banned list.

With that said ... if doping in the amateur ranks bothered me, I wouldn't be racing. I'm pretty sure there are guys here that are at a minimum using Testosterone supplements and a few have been caught here in the Pac NW, but racing in Oregon I don't have to worry about it since we have our own racing organization here that doesn't work with (at least any longer) USAC.

As it is ... I'm actually looking at "increasing" my racing under USAC since nationals are in Bend and I'm thinking of racing in the Masters Nationals ITT next September ... gotta make sure I'm in shape though


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

metoou2 said:


> Please explain a 'Battenkill type race'.


Something that has a unique, challenging, course. Anything but another industrial park Crit


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> I've heard the same thing from washed up racers in my area.


Ha!

He is an Olympian, former Pro, ran the top American professional team for years and is now successful in business.......and still flies on the bike. I wish I was that "Washed up"

Better to be a "Has Been" then a "Never Was"


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Something that has a unique, challenging, course. Anything but another industrial park Crit


Again with the crit bashing. We Americans aren't as sophisticated as you.

Also, please restrict the thread to active racers.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Again with the crit bashing. We Americans aren't as sophisticated as you.
> 
> Also, please restrict the thread to active racers.


as an american racer phrased it. "crits are to road racing what a wank is to sex".


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Again with the crit bashing. We Americans aren't as sophisticated as you.
> 
> Also, please restrict the thread to active racers.


It appears you have a limited understanding of the sport. For decades most racing in Germany was Crits. In Belgium the standard race is a kermesse, essentially a Crit with a longer lap. Many Pro's can match their yearly earnings racing Crit's in Holland, Belgium, France and Spain. It has nothing to do with being American, some just prefer a more unique challenge

Are you checking licenses or just trolling again?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> It appears you have a limited understanding of the sport. For decades most racing in Germany was Crits. In Belgium the standard race is a kermesse, essentially a Crit with a longer lap. Many Pro's can match their yearly earnings racing Crit's in Holland, Belgium, France and Spain. It has nothing to do with being American, some just prefer a more unique challenge
> 
> Are you checking licenses or just trolling again?


I disagree with you, so by your standards I am indeed trolling.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> as an american racer phrased it. "crits are to road racing what a wank is to sex".


I'm not a fan of crits, but I don't have the ability to change the prominence or popularity. I'd love if there were more long road races, especially ones with lots of climbing and time trials. 

I generally only partake in crits that are part of a stage race or if there's enough climbing to keep the pack from being too bunched up. They can be fun and I posted my best power in a crit, but I don't like the crash factor.


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## little_shoe (Apr 18, 2008)

Honestly despite the outcome of usada v lance i am still planning on racing next year and in the future. This is despite serious reservations with USAC and USADA and their processes.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I disagree with you, so by your standards I am indeed trolling.


Thanks for proving my point

Your attempt to paint my lack of interest in crits as arrogant and dismissive of Americans was trolling. You even admit you are not a fan of them either, but can't help yourself.....

The babble about "Active racer" only reinforces this, you must have missed that I wrote I am always looking for a competitive outlet. Racing has been part of my life for decades and I can't see that changing anytime soon because of some dopers. 

Surely you can think of better things to do with your time then playing these silly games?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Thanks for proving my point
> 
> Your attempt to paint my lack of interest in crits as arrogant and dismissive of Americans was trolling. You even admit you are not a fan of them either, but can't help yourself.....
> 
> ...


Thank you for proving mine.

I restricted this question to ACTIVE racers because it's easy to claim the field is so crooked when you have absolutely no intentions of actually racing. I could just as easily blame my lackluster results on dopers, but I honestly think doping is minimal or nonexistent in my area and the results from doing so would be minimal at best.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Thank you for proving mine.
> 
> I restricted this question to ACTIVE racers because it's easy to claim the field is so crooked when you have absolutely no intentions of actually racing. I could just as easily blame my lackluster results on dopers, but I honestly think doping is minimal or nonexistent in my area and the results from doing so would be minimal at best.


This weird obsession you have with me and you do not even read what I write?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I just want to thank you guys for proving my points.
















Doctor Falsetti said:


> Better to be a "Has Been" then a "Never Was"


Reported.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Reported.


TROLL!!! REPORTED!!!!111111


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

FabPhyhokePah said:


> Сайт tvoiamyzika ru/]песен под гитару,
> у нас дюже большая подборка гитарных аккордов и песен около гитару
> Зайдя к нам вы будете счастливы качеством и удобством нашего сайта с tvoiamyzika ru/]аккордами под гитару


Reported 













...to USACycling for suspected doping violations.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Reported
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you no sympathy for the country he's from which Lance likely ruined. Ru-eeened!


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

*Do I have a USAC card?* Nope.
*Do I race?* Yep- all non-sanctioned races. If we had USAC races up here, I'd do them, but we don't. To be honest, I prefer it the way it is, given the smaller road racing community we have up here. Several of the riders compete in races outside, including USAC, Lavalman, Xterra... , but for the most part we do our own thing.
*Will this affect my participation?* Nope. I get trounced by pretty much everyone because of my extremely low w/kg numbers. That's a nice way of saying I'm too fat for this sport. I'm far too old to be worried about my "pro career", upgrading to ride with the fast kids, or my chances at Nationals. As long as I can hang with the pack and feel like I've pushed myself, I'm good. YMMV.

As far as crits go, we don't have enough up here. The majority of our races are time trials, followed closely by hill climbs. They're cheap to put on (low logistics), attract a high number of triathletes (increased participation), have a low incidence of injury, and don't take long to run. We run only a handful of road races, which usually are more like hilly circuit races. Crits get the short end of the stick, with only a couple per season.

I'm one of the ones that argues for more crits and longer road races. The low number of mass start events is plainly obvious every time we hold one, because the bike handling skills just aren't there, resulting in a lot of close calls (if not wrecks). I'm hoping we can find the balance between having enough to develop the race-pace pack-riding skills while keeping the carnage at a minimum. With out a competitive group ride culture, where else are we going to develop the skillsets?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

By the way- 
What's everyone paying for a single-day race these days? In my backwater, non-USAC race league, I pay $18 a race, with a $20 annual club membership fee. I consider it a bargain for what I get.

As I see it, if USAC starts pushing promoters to start covering a good portion (or all) anti-doping costs, entry fees could go up significantly. That would likely have a greater impact on participation than the fact that they were testing at all, which could mean fewer opportunities to race as a consequence. Not that I'm against testing, but there are consequences for increased testing on amateur riders that go beyond a positive test here or there.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Around here it's usually around $30 if you pre register and a touch higher day of. Second races run anywhere from $5 to $15 depending on the venue and you usually don't get hit with any day of registration penalties. 

Our association was rumored to be talking about $6000 for 10 random tests. So just a wag but, $1 or so for each entry would easily cover that cost for us.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

$20-30 depending on the event. I think Joe Martin cost a few more bucks, but that race had a hell of a lot of support staff and I was absolutely amazed to have the race results e-mailed to me by the time I was in my car.

I sincerely hope testing doesn't increase the costs too much. I don't mind paying, but I do NOT want to hear the complaining that will ensue. We have a few local complainers that are itchin' for something new to complain about.


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## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

We take the JM stage race pretty serious around here! I worked 2 back to back 11 hour days in the sun on this last one and can't wait to do it again. The women racers are my favorite part other than jeering for fellow team members and watching the men's pros of course. The female racers are so full of attitude it is different than any females around here and hilarious. People keep trying to talk me into racing it. I know I am too slow and I'm just sticking with our local points races.

Our local crits are 10 bucks if you have a USAC card, add another 10 dollars for the one day card if you don't have the real one. We had 6 local crits last year. The areas single day road races avg 35 dollars plus the same 10 dollars if you need the one day card. We have a time trial I was going to do this year. By the time I had signed up for my division and everything it was going to cost either 60 or 90 dollars I can't remember which but I'm not that good and race just for fun so I decided the $$ could be better served else where for me. I probably will race it this year as not doing it when I had the chance ended up making me feel weird in the end. 

If one only raced USAC inside of NWAR and NOT including any Joe Martin events you would pay $120.00 for all the crits, $105.00 for the 3 road races I know of and then $90.00 for the TT and then $35.00 for the Gaylor TT. Adding the $60.00 USAC year card I could race it all for $410.00. When/if I can climb to a higher Cat then the team sponsor would refund 1/2 of that. Including team dues I could race those 11 for 300 bucks. Wow, not too bad.


Some locals do around 60 races a year, I can't imagine their costs.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Didn't read all the posts but in answer to the OPs question....This "incident" came along after I'd already quit racing because of all the doping. 

What is the point of "racing" when anyone on the podium at any race anywhere is likely to have been augmented by various PEDs? I still do some TTs, I ride hard 'against' my buddies and my test myself against own personal best times around known courses, I train just like I'm still racing but I no longer waste my money traveling to stage races, paying entry fees, buying licenses....Racing is a joke anymore....What is the point, when you have to look at the guy who maybe just beat you and think...."is he doping?" after every single race...Silly because the answer is likely to be Yes he is doping.
I have taken up Endurance events now...There are probably a lot of dopers in these events too...but at least I don't see the weight-lifter bodied 'climbers' riding away from everyone on a sustained climb, with their eyes popping out and their pores oozing "T".........
Don Hanson


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Didn't read all the posts but in answer to the OPs question....This "incident" came along after I'd already quit racing because of all the doping.
> 
> What is the point of "racing" when anyone on the podium at any race anywhere is likely to have been augmented by various PEDs? I still do some TTs, I ride hard 'against' my buddies and my test myself against own personal best times around known courses, I train just like I'm still racing but I no longer waste my money traveling to stage races, paying entry fees, buying licenses....Racing is a joke anymore....What is the point, when you have to look at the guy who maybe just beat you and think...."is he doping?" after every single race...Silly because the answer is likely to be Yes he is doping.
> I have taken up Endurance events now...There are probably a lot of dopers in these events too...but at least I don't see the weight-lifter bodied 'climbers' riding away from everyone on a sustained climb, with their eyes popping out and their pores oozing "T".........
> Don Hanson


You're certain that your competition was doping?


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

spade2you said:


> You're certain that your competition was doping?


It's a sorry excuse for not training harder. 

"I lost because the winner doped" mentality is BS! If you give up that easy, then yes you should not compete in any athletic type events.

I can train hard and have a considerable advantage over others. Would that be cheating? No, it's called hard work.

Racing with friends that actually don't compete like you do is pathetic! Is that how you satisfy your sore looser attitude?


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

FYI...I skipped a 10k run today that cost $45. 

I can run 10k for free!


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

spade2you said:


> You're certain that your competition was doping?


 No...

Am I certain I've been beaten fairly by a clean racer, every time? No.

Was there any way to tell the difference, when I raced? No.

The only way to be certain you are racing on a level playing field is to spend bazillion$ on drugs your own self. That was not worth it to me...the money and the health risks and the weird possible side-effects...

Can you look around you at any race and be certain you've been beaten fairly? No. Can you finish a race and think...."I didn't win because I just plain got out trained and out ridden....I have to work harder next time"..? No,

I often found myself thinking..."Wonder what those guys were taking?" so it was no longer any fun...for me. 

YMMV....


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

Yes I will be racing a ton. Do I believe I'm racing against dopers, yes. Will it stop me, nope.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Didn't read all the posts but in answer to the OPs question....This "incident" came along after I'd already quit racing because of all the doping.
> 
> What is the point of "racing" when anyone on the podium at any race anywhere is likely to have been augmented by various PEDs? I still do some TTs, I ride hard 'against' my buddies and my test myself against own personal best times around known courses, I train just like I'm still racing but I no longer waste my money traveling to stage races, paying entry fees, buying licenses....Racing is a joke anymore....What is the point, when you have to look at the guy who maybe just beat you and think...."is he doping?" after every single race...Silly because the answer is likely to be Yes he is doping.
> I have taken up Endurance events now...There are probably a lot of dopers in these events too...but at least I don't see the weight-lifter bodied 'climbers' riding away from everyone on a sustained climb, with their eyes popping out and their pores oozing "T".........
> Don Hanson


You must have been a pro. The way you describe this, there is no other option. Are amateurs doping? Yes, clearly. Is it enough to drive someone from the sport? No....unless they are looking for a way out/excuse to quit due to crappy results due to lack of skill or training sorta thing...


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

rydbyk said:


> You must have been a pro. The way you describe this, there is no other option. Are amateurs doping? Yes, clearly. Is it enough to drive someone from the sport? No....unless they are looking for a way out/excuse to quit due to crappy results due to lack of skill or training sorta thing...


 "Are amateurs doping? Yes, clearly. Is it enough to drive someone from the sport?" 

Absolutely. That was the OP's question and my answer is 'yes'. Since doping has been proven to give a significant boost in performance and it is so wide-spread, racing without your own doping program is probably a bit like starting races 15mins behind the pack. Sure, you can maybe catch up,but you're already in a hole. Same-O when you race against dopers.. You are starting every race at a disadvantage. Racing is hard enough if everyone is riding clean, but when some guys start with a significant advantage, wheres the contest?. 
I don't have the funds, the connections or the inclination to shoot up or have some doctor shoot me up......Seems silly and risky to start doping to compete on an even basis with riders who are "clearly" doping, some of them..So I no longer race bicycles against dopers...simple. 

If there's ever better enforcement I'll race again, but for now I find it stupid to still hope that I might be the statistical exception...the bike racer with so much natural talent that I can beat all the dopers.. We've had positive tests amongst our regional club peloton...I've been in events with proven cheaters...for now, I've had enough of that.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Gnarly 928 said:


> "Are amateurs doping? Yes, clearly. Is it enough to drive someone from the sport?"
> 
> Absolutely. That was the OP's question and my answer is 'yes'. Since doping has been proven to give a significant boost in performance and it is so wide-spread, racing without your own doping program is probably a bit like starting races 15mins behind the pack. Sure, you can maybe catch up,but you're already in a hole. Same-O when you race against dopers.. You are starting every race at a disadvantage. Racing is hard enough if everyone is riding clean, but when some guys start with a significant advantage, wheres the contest?.
> I don't have the funds, the connections or the inclination to shoot up or have some doctor shoot me up......Seems silly and risky to start doping to compete on an even basis with riders who are "clearly" doping, some of them..So I no longer race bicycles against dopers...simple.
> ...


If you truly suspect doping, you should report it. I think a few of us get the vibe that you got your ass kicked and are blaming doping.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Gnarly 928;419909 If there's ever better enforcement I'll race again said:


> You are so bitter that you are letting other people's actions prevent you from doing what you want.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

zone5 said:


> You are so bitter that you are letting other people's actions prevent you from doing what you want.


Or so realistic.
He can still do group rides with nearly the same satisfaction without flushing $30 down the drain.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Or so realistic.
> He can still do group rides with nearly the same satisfaction without flushing $30 down the drain.


Group rides seldom behave the way a race does. 

Even though I tend to focus the most on ITTs, I much prefer an actual race to training. Picking off riders is a great feeling, as is the pressure to perform or you'll be caught and passed. I don't consider it flushing down money when I can do well and have the chance to win. 

That being said, I'm a modest racer at best. Other than possibly a few masters whose physicians convinced them they "suffer" from low testosterone, I'm racing against clean riders who are beating me fairly. If I started training earlier, stayed single, and didn't have such a demanding job, perhaps I could be destroying them. That's not the case and won't change.


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## OHroadie (Jul 12, 2010)

I've been out of the game for a little while ( 6 months or so) but got fired up to train again for next years local spring series despite recent news. IMHO I don't see the difference between grams, aerodynamic co-efficiency and using PED's when it comes to looking for an edge to gain performance in cycling. Call me insane if you will but think about it. The reason people buy into the technology or PED's is to gain an edge over the competition, and we, the wordwide amateur in every sport imaginable, eat it up. They both do the same thing, drive behavior. No body races to come in last. Again IMHO any tangible benefits gained through technology (aero bike, lighter etc) or PED's are minimal at best unless you are at the pro level and even then it's still marginal increases. The time in the saddle means everything, period.

As an amateur CAT 5 racer with plans to move up next year, I have no business riding a 9k road bike but I do, because I can and like cool bike stuff. It's just that simple. 

I won't boycott sanctioned races, I still prefer them because they are generally better run and have better turn outs locally. Racing is as much a test against myself as it is against others. Put any amateur on dope against a clean man or woman put in serious saddle time and that turns themselves inside out on every training ride and my money is on the latter every time.


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## TimV (Mar 20, 2007)

As far as the whole 'doping' scandal goes, I really dont care. It's nothing more than a curiosity for me, at best. I just started racing this year. I finished eight out of ten races on the podium including four wins. I am now a Cat 4 and I will absolutely be racing next year as I plan to move up to Cat 3. I enjoy racing and the actions of some pros isn't going to change that.


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

OHroadie said:


> I've been out of the game for a little while ( 6 months or so) but got fired up to train again for next years local spring series despite recent news. IMHO I don't see the difference between grams, aerodynamic co-efficiency and using PED's when it comes to looking for an edge to gain performance in cycling. Call me insane if you will but think about it. The reason people buy into the technology or PED's is to gain an edge over the competition, and we, the wordwide amateur in every sport imaginable, eat it up. They both do the same thing, drive behavior. No body races to come in last. Again IMHO any tangible benefits gained through technology (aero bike, lighter etc) or PED's are minimal at best unless you are at the pro level and even then it's still marginal increases. The time in the saddle means everything, period.
> 
> As an amateur CAT 5 racer with plans to move up next year, I have no business riding a 9k road bike but I do, because I can and like cool bike stuff. It's just that simple.
> 
> I won't boycott sanctioned races, I still prefer them because they are generally better run and have better turn outs locally. Racing is as much a test against myself as it is against others. Put any amateur on dope against a clean man or woman put in serious saddle time and that turns themselves inside out on every training ride and my money is on the latter every time.


The difference between PEDS and Technology:

Abuse of Di2 won't kill you.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

CabDoctor said:


> The difference between PEDS and Technology:
> 
> Abuse of Di2 won't kill you.


EPO is no more dangerous than orange juice.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

It's quite common knowledge that (9) out of (10) Trolls prefer O.J. to PED's.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

OHroadie said:


> I've been out of the game for a little while ( 6 months or so) but got fired up to train again for next years local spring series despite recent news. IMHO I don't see the difference between grams, aerodynamic co-efficiency and using PED's when it comes to looking for an edge to gain performance in cycling. Call me insane if you will but think about it. The reason people buy into the technology or PED's is to gain an edge over the competition, and we, the wordwide amateur in every sport imaginable, eat it up. They both do the same thing, drive behavior. No body races to come in last. Again IMHO any tangible benefits gained through technology (aero bike, lighter etc) or PED's are minimal at best unless you are at the pro level and even then it's still marginal increases. The time in the saddle means everything, period.
> 
> As an amateur CAT 5 racer with plans to move up next year, I have no business riding a 9k road bike but I do, because I can and like cool bike stuff. It's just that simple.
> 
> I won't boycott sanctioned races, I still prefer them because they are generally better run and have better turn outs locally. Racing is as much a test against myself as it is against others. Put any amateur on dope against a clean man or woman put in serious saddle time and that turns themselves inside out on every training ride and my money is on the latter every time.


Wait. What!?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

It was JV who said that EPO only gives athletes a 2% increase. He must have been referring to what an athlete can get from EPO without setting off the biological passport alarms.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> It was JV who said that EPO only gives athletes a 2% increase. He must have been referring to what an athlete can get from EPO without setting off the biological passport alarms.


Good question. Probably depends on how much the H&H will jump. Since my H&H are fairly high and near "the limit", I wouldn't think I'd benefit much from EPO. If I normally ran lower numbers, I'd think I'd have the potential to have more benefit.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> It was JV who said that EPO only gives athletes a 2% increase. He must have been referring to what an athlete can get from EPO without setting off the biological passport alarms.


2% is huge. In a 4 hour race, that equates to an EPO user finishing nearly 5 minutes ahead of the non EPO user.

Just throwing out a 2% is silly. An athlete with a lower hematocrit that has an efficient engine will see much larger gains vs. an athlete with an already high hematocrit of say 46.

Assuming that both cheaters will want to top out at or near 50 hematocrit, a athlete with a hematocrit of 41 who starts EPO will see much larger overall gains than someone with a 46.

This is a generalization, but this is how it works according to the lit I have read. This is discussed at length in Tyler's book too.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Again, I think what JV was saying is that even with the biological passport, someone can get away with cheating up to 2%. I don't think he argued that the max PEDs can boost you is 2%.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> Again, I think what JV was saying is that even with the biological passport, someone can get away with cheating up to 2%. I don't think he argued that the max PEDs can boost you is 2%.



bio passport. got it.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> 2% is huge. In a 4 hour race, that equates to an EPO user finishing nearly 5 minutes ahead of the non EPO user.


1) Putting out 2% more power does mean you go 2% faster. The effect of wind is non-linear.
2) Drafting. If you want to put that 2% extra power to use, don't be surprised when you wind up just pulling the peloton behind you.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Cableguy said:


> 1) Putting out 2% more power does mean you go 2% faster. The effect of wind is non-linear.
> 2) Drafting. If you want to put that 2% extra power to use, don't be surprised when you wind up just pulling the peloton behind you.


Time. Trial. 
Mountain. Stage.
Break. Away.
Fresher. Legs. While. Drafting.

It was a generalization, what I said. You know what I meant.

Yeh...who wants a 2% increase in performance anyways?

How did we get here talking about EPO use? Haha...funny how these threads can take a turn so easily. Sorry..


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

i like crits


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

So, on the racing forums they are talking about beet juice giving you a 5 to 6% advantage. And EPO is only 2% I am just going to grab some popcorn and keep believing everything I read.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

drug cheating to win a cat 3 criterium is the lamest thing I can possibly think of. Even lamer than downgrading to cat 4 and sandbagging.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> drug cheating to win a cat 3 criterium is the lamest thing I can possibly think of. Even lamer than downgrading to cat 4 and sandbagging.


It's pretty lame in any cat.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> It's pretty lame in any cat.


I agree, but it is lamer the lower the cat. A professional has a profession on the line, many of these guys have no other skill or trade should they fail at cycling. To paraphrase the Great Chris Rock, I am not saying these guys should cheat, but I understand!

Weekend warriors cheating at bike racing is about as lame as it gets, since there is nothing on the line but bragging rights for an event no one actually gives ashit about.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> I agree, but it is lamer the lower the cat. A professional has a profession on the line, many of these guys have no other skill or trade should they fail at cycling. To paraphrase the Great Chris Rock, I am not saying these guys should cheat, but I understand!
> 
> Weekend warriors cheating at bike racing is about as lame as it gets, since there is nothing on the line but bragging rights for an event no one actually gives ashit about.


There are meatheads on steroids who don't compete in anything!


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## OHroadie (Jul 12, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> There are meatheads on steroids who don't compete in anything!


You can say that again...

Back to topic. News is just news, I'll still race.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> There are meatheads on steroids who don't compete in anything!


That's true...but if you are gonna do it, you may as well do it all-in. Go big or go home!!!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

If he dies, he dies.


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## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

The only road specific races I am signed up for are Battenkill and American Zofingen Iron ITT, so I guess I am sort of boycotting UCI races. The others are all endurance or ultra endurance mountain bike races. I plan/hope to do more this year.


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