# How do you avoid being too thin?



## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

How do you avoid being too thin?

Since deciding over 200 pounds was too much at the end of 2013 (my man boobs met my belly in an uncomfortable sweaty crease) I've only eaten when hungry, eaten whenever I got hungry, and only eaten enough to not be hungry 30 minutes after the last bite. I switched from carbs to meat or mixed nuts for between meals but otherwise eat the same things as before, just less.

Between that and riding I've shrunk to 144 pounds which is still reasonable for me at 5'10" - I make the same power I did in April 2014 at 185 and recover as fast. Ribs and sternum stick out, veins do not, and I have poor definition between my abs.

I'm still shrinking (I was 148 at the beginning of the year so I may be down to half a pound per week, although January was an easy 100 mile a week rest month which is not representative) and at some point it will be too much.

What is that point? 

When I was riding in 1997-1998 the veins on my forearms were like road maps and I seemed fine, although long before power meters I had no idea how I was performing and I wasn't even a scale kind of guy.

Naively I plan to get myself a body analyzer/smart scale (iHealth or Withings - any recommendation?) to watch lean mass and calculate critical power every four weeks when I let my stress balance go positive (long and short efforts to exhaustion don't depend on motivation and pacing like a 20 minute effort to estimate FTP).

If either drops I'll estimate my Calorie deficit at weight change / 3500 and eat the corresponding squares of Ritter Sport dark chocolate hazelnut bars to compensate.

Any better ideas based on experience? Calorie counting inputs is out - I eat too many unquantifiable things for that to work (example - a medium restaurant bowl of ramen with great stock, unspecified quantity of egg noodles, lump of pork belly, soft boiled egg, and the usual spring onions/sprouts).


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

You will stop losing weight when you're at your natural weight.

Seems like you're not there yet.

Soon you should just level out and never have to think about weight again.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

How do you avoid being too thin? Simple eat more, or expend less. It's basically a balance, although manipulating that balance is not so simple, and very individual. 

The body analyzer scales are a waste . They really don't tell you anything you can believe, and thus are pretty useless. A better investment would be to get a body analysis done by someone competent, and use that to fix a body weight, the eat / work to maintain that. The fat you see on the outside doesn't tell you much about overall body composition.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

You'll know you're too thin when you recover poorly, get sick easily, and lose power. 

Body fat scales are useful if you understand their limitations. While they are not accurate they can be reasonably consistent if you take hydration into account. You also need to measure under consistent conditions and measure frequently. I measure daily before breakfast and record the numbers, then use them to identify trends.

But even if we could get accurate bf% readings, no one can tell you what number is "too thin" because it varies between individuals and changes as we age.


When I hit my goal weight/BF% for the season I just eat more. My goal is based on previous experience of being too thin. What's too thin at 55 is heavier than it was at 25- I have put on a few pounds of upper body muscle and I can't handle quite as low body fat.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Let me pass along a few of references on body fat, and measuring it.

Body composition - Yes, just as you can be too fat you can also be too skinny from a long-term health perspective. There is a healthy range for the normal pool, it's different for males and females, and varies a bit with age. The problem is gauging a healthy individual against the pool. As an example - consider a well trained athlete with above average lean muscle mass; as a result f the increased muscle mass their percentage of body fat will often be lower than the "healthy" rang for the pool. The point is it takes more knowledge of the individual than just the numbers. 

A useful and easy to understand guide on body composition is available from the Univ. of Pennsylvania. More here from Kravitz at the University of NM.

Measurement and tracking - The important measure for body fat correlated with health is visceral fat - see this simple explanation from Prof Kravitz at the Univ. of NM. Body fat doesn't vary rapidly, so daily monitoring isn't really needed. The easiest and most reliable method for at-home use is a series of simple measurements done with a good tape rule. For men the key measurement is abdominal circumference, and depending on model may also use hip circumference or neck circumference. A very good and easy model to use in the one developed by the U.S. Navy, online calculator here. For males only weight, height, waist circumference at the navel, and neck circumference or needed (follow the directions on the right closely). The waist measurement methods are well correlated with visceral fat, and are more reliable over time than electrical impedance measurements.

Again, the best approach would be to get a reliable measurement done. DEXA scans (the best) can be had routinely for about $100, or Bod Pod (decent if the operator is good) for $50. That will give you a very good measure of you where you are at that point. With that establish the corresponding weight and measurement values. Then monitor yourself with weight and periodic circumference measurements for the longer haul, with maybe weekly or even monthly checks on circumference.


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

I wish I had that problem....I'm just under 5'10 and around 176lbs right now...usually 168ish in race season.... you're making me feel mega-fat 

Looks like I should be going into trim-down mode now


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

twiggy said:


> I wish I had that problem....I'm just under 5'10 and around 176lbs right now...usually 168ish in race season.... you're making me feel mega-fat
> 
> Looks like I should be going into trim-down mode now


Neither weight alone, nor BMI tells you much at all. On an individual level both are pretty meaningless if they haven't been "calibrated" with some other measurements.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

ibericb said:


> A very good and easy model to use in the one developed by the U.S. Navy, online calculator here. For males only weight, height, waist circumference at the navel, and neck circumference or needed (follow the directions on the right closely). The waist measurement methods are well correlated with visceral fat, and are more reliable over time than electrical impedance measurements.


The navy calculator is off - it tells me 6% (144, 5'10", 27.5" waist it rounds to 28", 14" neck) although I don't have the noticeable vascularity or muscle definition which go with that.

There's a bodpod enroute to my morning ride and office; although where an absolute target isn't possible that doesn't help too much, and since I just need consistency not accuracy on lean mass a smart scale seems to beat $50/month plus SF bay area markup.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> The navy calculator is off - it tells me 6% (144, 5'10", 27.5" waist it rounds to 28", 14" neck) although I don't have the noticeable vascularity or muscle definition which go with that.
> 
> There's a bodpod enroute to my morning ride and office; although where an absolute target isn't possible that doesn't help too much, and since I just need consistency not accuracy on lean mass a smart scale seems to beat $50/month plus SF bay area markup.


Since you have no real measurement by which to judge, how do you know the Navy model is off? Vascularity and definition are not good measures of overall BF.

The idea isn't to do Bod Pod once a month. Nobody would do that. The idea is to do it once (in a great while). At the same time record your weight measurement that you will use daily, and circumference measurements that you will track weekly or monthly. The use the daily weights and periodic circumferences to guide you. They will be more consistent and reliable than the impedance scales. You BF composition won't vary much in the short term unless you are specifically loosing weight. That Navy model may be off, but it will be more reliable and consistent than an impedance based home measurement. As you say, the exact number isn't so important in your case, just consistency and reliability.

If you're really set on the scale, then do both - add the measurements, and get the Bod Pod done the one time. After doing it all for a year come back and tell us what you found.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> How do you avoid being too thin?
> 
> Since deciding over 200 pounds was too much at the end of 2013 (my man boobs met my belly in an uncomfortable sweaty crease) I've only eaten when hungry, eaten whenever I got hungry, and only eaten enough to not be hungry 30 minutes after the last bite. I switched from carbs to meat or mixed nuts for between meals but otherwise eat the same things as before, just less.
> 
> ...


I know I'm too thin when my belt digs into my hip bones, it's uncomfortable to sit on hard surfaces and I'm constantly hungry. Usually I race really well at that point and I've never lost any power. Pretty quickly my hunger beats my self discipline, I gain five pounds and I'm pretty comfortable again.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Found it - pass tis along to you. I had seen this sometime in the not too distant past, but forgot where. Took some searching to find it. Just and FYI FWIW:

From DC Rainmaker - Bod Pod & Consumer Scale Comparison Tests: Part II (The Results).

I had one of the hold-in-hand versions a few years ago. Came well rated. I found it would vary by 3-5 % in reading day-to-day, which for BF measurement is ridiculous. It may have been a bum unit, or a poor model. Newer ones may be better. But I found it generally more confusing than helpful. YMMV.


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## plag (Apr 30, 2007)

5'10 144 sounds thin. Makes me feel huge lol.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Beer.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

I'm going to sound like as ass but have you ever thought of just eating a proper diet with proper food. From what I have read you are not eating healthy at all. FWIW


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

spade2you said:


> Beer.


And bacon


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

CrankyCarbon said:


> And bacon


McDonald's. Worked for Morgan Spurlock.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

CrankyCarbon said:


> And bacon


I recently joined a local bacon club. Had some wonderful fennel and pepper smoked shoulder bacon. Heavenly.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Beer.


I keep my fridge stocked with Sculpin IPA, a live beer like Bridgeport might brew if they weren't afraid of flavor. 









Generally 0 or 1 because I'm not optimal with more, sometimes 2 on Friday or Saturday because they taste so good and I'm too old for 3.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

CrankyCarbon said:


> And bacon


Only on Bacon Thursdays at my office. Several pieces are a nice chaser after 30 miles of riding before work. I'd be open to bacon more often, although that would require me to cook it myself.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

You can pretty much decide on a weight. But you would need to know what you are putting in your mouth. Without that data, everything else is shooting blindly into the dark.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> I keep my fridge stocked with Sculpin IPA, a live beer like Bridgeport might brew if they weren't afraid of flavor.
> 
> View attachment 304147
> 
> ...


Very nice. I've heard good things about Ballast Point beers. They're not available in my area. I had a chance to try some in Las Vegas, but ran out of time/room for more beer. 

I typically have the capacity for 18 cases of home brew and 4 kegs. I treat cycling and beer as rewards.


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Consider yourself lucky you have not been accused of polydismorphic
syndrome. To this point. That is to say, presuming this is not a troll
post. yadda yadda yadda. My cynicism is really getting out of hand.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

phoehn9111 said:


> Consider yourself lucky you have not been accused of polydismorphic
> syndrome. To this point. That is to say, presuming this is not a troll
> post. yadda yadda yadda. My cynicism is really getting out of hand.


No troll. I shrunk 60 pounds and had problems finding small enough jerseys at the beginning of the year. A small Castelli aero jersey was actually baggy.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/apparel-cycling-clothes/xl-xxl-but-no-xs-343589-2.html#post4810660

I'm getting close to where I was at my cycling peak in the 18 years ago in my 20s without slowing down much, and accidentally going "too Rasmussen" seems like a real possibility.









Web articles on cycling weight all seem to come from the other direction or are useless on finding a good size "pick a body fat % around 10% then use a body fat analyzer which can be off 10%" so I thought I'd try forums where people might be more constructive ( watching power and recovery time) about finding that, have reassuring personal stories "the weight loss just stopped after my veins popped out," or something else useful to say.

Some one on the wattage list suggested loosing a lot of weight can screw with hormones and getting things checked was prudent; that's actionable and I'll ask my endocrinologist to bleed me when I see him next week.

Other people had fun suggesting bacon and beer, and I figure I should be able to play too like when co-workers tell me to eat a doughnut.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

It can't hurt seeing a doc. How do you feel on and off the bike? 

I started one season at about 119lbs and had decent results. No power meter that year. I'm at about 118-119lbs these days and seem to be alright. Starting my build phase next week.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

spade2you said:


> It can't hurt seeing a doc. How do you feel on and off the bike?
> 
> I started one season at about 119lbs and had decent results. No power meter that year. I'm at about 118-119lbs these days and seem to be alright. Starting my build phase next week.


Awesome. Everything is great apart from my wife's concern over bony bits poking out. I got back to riding zone 4 and 5 intervals in February (after spending 2014 on a lot of zone 2 with enough 3 and sweet spot to avoid boredom, since that wouldn't make me hungry), am already up 10W, and feel great the next day apart from the usual slight soreness.

As far as I can tell I'm still at the "potential future problem" stage although I'll see what my FTP looks like in a few months.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> No troll. I shrunk 60 pounds and had problems finding small enough jerseys at the beginning of the year. A small Castelli aero jersey was actually baggy. ...


If you are seriously concerned about going too far, which can definitely be hazardous to your long-term health, then two things that might help you define a lower limit are a body composition analysis with DEXA, and a visit to an exercise physiologist who can help you set some boundaries for action. Keeping things in check is largely a matter of energy balance, complicated somewhat by what you eat as well as how much you eat.


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## the_gormandizer (May 12, 2006)

I posted a similar query to yours a while back, as well as one about the diet I am following. I am a similar height (well maybe 1/2" shorter with age-related shrinkage :nonod. I have seen my scale read as low as 137 lbs recently, and estimate my BF to be 8% within +- 2%. However, I have had to work exceedingly hard to get here. Like most people, I find that the more I exercise the hungrier I get. So in order to lose weight I have to carefully run a slight calorie deficit and focus on macro-nutrient timing and overall nutrient quality.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but when I look at your selfie I see a pretty emaciated looking guy without much muscle definition. Even at my advanced age (53) I see more vascularity and definition of abs etc. when I look in the mirror, and I am far from genetically gifted. 

You mentioned adding meat and nuts to your diet, so I presume you are getting enough protein and (good) fats. Do you eat seeds or fish for the Omega 3's, which are good for the endocrine system? More importantly are you doing any off-bike work for core strength and stimulation of the appropriate hormones?

You will know when your endocrine system crashes by symptoms such as depression, insomnia and low energy or poor performance on your hard sessions. But a medical checkup might reveal some other reason for your weight loss beyond exercise.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

the_gormandizer said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, but when I look at your selfie I see a pretty emaciated looking guy without much muscle definition. Even at my advanced age (53) I see more vascularity and definition of abs etc. when I look in the mirror, and I am far from genetically gifted.


Right, getting too Rasmussen. 



> You mentioned adding meat and nuts to your diet, so I presume you are getting enough protein and (good) fats. Do you eat seeds or fish for the Omega 3's, which are good for the endocrine system?


Not enough fish. Many (if not most) Silicon Valley companies feed their employees so we stick around and work more. Unfortunately fish is off the catering menus, presumably for price reasons; although I could lay in a supply of cured salmon.

No seeds now; I'll get sunflower seeds added to the office snack selection.

Avocado a few days a week and it'd be easy (they grow on trees in California) to eat more.




> More importantly are you doing any off-bike work for core strength and stimulation of the appropriate hormones?


No, I should do that. 



> You will know when your endocrine system crashes by symptoms such as depression, insomnia and low energy or poor performance on your hard sessions. But a medical checkup might reveal some other reason for your weight loss beyond exercise.


Yeah, I'm trying to avoid that and am seeing my endocrinologist next week.


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