# wasting money on wheel set



## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

Since nobody really ever talks about wheelsets...I have a quick couple of questions as a newer ROAD rider. Been racing MTB and need to get better endurance.

I ride Roubaix SL3 Expert. Real smooth. Ultegra build w DuraAce cables. 

WHEELS: DT Axis 3.0

Most personal reviews state they BLOW.

I can steady at 18 mph all day and rarely go much quicker and usually ride alone. In South Florida, no hills, decent wind.

Are 'quality' rims going to make me better??? Buddy was stating that once up to speed, it won't matter much at all at my level!

Was looking at some Zipp's (330's) but they cost almost as much as the bike. I won't sprint very much or very long. 

Some tell me: Rims are EVERYTHING, others are telling me to wait and get better.

AM I WASTING MY time/money? 

Thanks for letting bring this new topic of rims up:idea:


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Get your fitness level maxed, and then consider new wheels. 

Inevitably, you'll buy new wheels if you're anything like the rest of us knuckleheads. Since your bike is equipped with nice Shimano components, you might consider Dura Ace 9000 C24 wheels. Really nice wheels that can be found for around $800/set by doing a little homework.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Wheel weight means little in Florida where it's very flat. When I lived in Jacksonville for four years I learned that my aero position made a big difference. No wheelset will buy you a ton of speed. If I remember correctly, the average speed difference between a 32-hole Mavic Open Pro wheel and the most expensive carbon aero wheels was 0.4 mph, and the latter probably cost around $5k. Speed will come from training and improving your position and efficiency. If you do really long rides, aero wheels will help you maintain your same speed with less energy expenditure, but it's not a night-and-day difference. If you want new wheels, buy ones that make sense for your budget and ones that are rated for their durability and quality. If you search around this forum, you'll see a lot of rave reviews for Pacenti SL23 rims with CX-Ray spokes and WI T11 hubs. The rims are only 26mm deep, but this particular build is considered the best bang for the buck in terms of weight, stiffness, and durability.


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

Thank you tvad...as a retired MC racer, and new current MTB racer, light rims help 'all the time'.

Do the 'better' lighter more aero wheels help efficiency even when maintaining speed? It was explained to me that at steady speeds an aero rim will be more efficient, but by how much? Significantly etc? Thanks again for your response...and yeah, I'm one of those knuckleheads...my MTB is HOOKED up


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

There are lots reasons to get new/better wheels but going faster generally isn't one of them unless you're talking seconds in a time trial.

If the wheels blow because they won't stay true, break spokes, ride like cinder blocks or flex around corners...you'll benefit from new wheels.

If the reviews you read say the blow because they are slow.....ignore those reviews. 

Nothing wrong with getting better wheels if you have garbage....just don't do it thinking you'll go faster.

I was thrilled when I retired my 'stock' wheels that sucked and it was great move. They were better in every way but one....I didn't get any faster.


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

I'm starting to smell a consensus... I get that 'itch' but really seems like I need to wait, improve! The 'efficiency' sounds AWESOME. But do I wanna spend that kinda coin at my level

Thanks for your reply!


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Jay Strongbow said:


> There are lots reasons to get new/better wheels but going faster generally isn't one of them unless you're talking seconds in a time trial...
> 
> I was thrilled when I retired my 'stock' wheels that sucked and it was great move. They were better in every way but one....I didn't get any faster.


^What he said.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Realistically you're not going to gain much speed from another set of wheels, but I still here form customers telling me incredible stories of how the new wheelset I built them drastically improved their speed or time on their regular route. I think I can attribute it to the placebo affect of having new wheels. It's so exciting for many people to get new equipment that you really end up pushing yourself harder than you did on our old equipment.

Aside from speed though, new wheels can really reduce the weight of the bike, which feels good. A nice set of wheel can also be much more reliable and nicer looking than your previous set. 

I also see a lot of customers switching to tubeless road tires, and although most any rim can be made air-tight with tape and valves, the newer rims are wider and many are designed to work tubeless, therefore the tires will inflate easier without a tube.


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

Are the 'tubeless' like the MTB pete? Stan's etc? I HATE Flats!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

everything motorcycles said:


> Some tell me: Rims are EVERYTHING


You need to ride with less gullible and more truthful "Some" then. There's only *one* thing on or around a bike that is everything and it's you. There is no rim or wheelset whose benefit doesn't get lost in the overall noise and normal variation of everyday riding. If any wheelset provided a minor benefit over another it would be a handful of seconds in a flat-out longish ride. But then you almost never ride flat-out for long rides and if you did you'd be competing against those with similar wheels anyway and not against you on your old wheels.



> others are telling me to wait and get better.


They are the wise ones. Unless you're at the top of your potential then you have the probable ability to improve by many minutes over a long ride. Nothing you can buy for a bike will gain you more than a fraction of a minute.



> AM I WASTING MY time/money?


If you're doing it for the wrong reason then yes. If you're doing it for the right reason (and "because I wanna" is the best one I know and the one I use) then, no.



> Thanks for letting bring this new topic of rims up:idea:


Oh boy, can I tell you're new around here!


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

I rode some DT Axis 4.0 wheels on a loaner Specialized Roubaix SL4. When I went back to my Kinlin XR270 custom wheel set on my SL2 I noticed a pretty significant difference in how much faster they spun up. The DT Axis 4.0 rear wheel also rubbed the brakes on hard acceleration. In terms of upgrades that you can feel, getting some reasonably strong/light $300-500 wheels are a very good bang-for-the-buck. As far as making your faster though you can't really buy speed on a road bike until you're regularly pushing 25-30mph riding out in the wind (as opposed to drafting.)

One other thing, tires are an even better upgrade value than wheels. Get some GP4000S or Pro Race 4 tires if you haven't tried them already.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Well for road tubeless you do have to use tubeless specific tires because they have a very strong bead. Very small holes usually seal in the tubeless road tires without notice. Larger holes will often spray sealant until the pressure drops into the 20's, which is actually rideable do to the stiffness of these tires. Pinch flats, which are my nemesis are non-existent with the tubeless tires. I personally will not go back to tubes, primarily because I can run a reasonable pressure without the worry of pinch flats. Some rims work better than others. I like the Pacenti and Notutbes rims for inflation, but I don't like the fact that they don't use a bead lock so that when you deflate the tire the bead falls into the middle of the rim, but rims are evolving.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

budget...

Roval Fusee SLX ~300 used
Shimano C24.. ~800-900
Roval CLX40 - 1200 slightly used/takeoffs

My wife bike came with axis 3.0.. they weigh a ton.. her bike now has CLX40's


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

I spent an hour with a set of loaner Enve 3.4 tubular wheels. Compared to my Oval 330 aluminum weeks, I found that the Enve wheels handled wind better. Not a massive difference, but noticeable. As for weight, going up over the bridges in South Florida, I could not tell any difference. Accelerating from a stop? Can't say I noticed a difference. 

My typical rides are 25-40 miles, 20-22 mph and sometimes I do long rides, 62 to 100 miles.

No way I could justify a set of Enve 3.4 wheels. Now a set of Reynolds Assault for $879, or something from Stradalli? Ok, perhaps


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

SauronHimself said:


> If I remember correctly, the average speed difference between a 32-hole Mavic Open Pro wheel and the most expensive carbon aero wheels was 0.4 mph, and the latter probably cost around $5k.


That difference in speed is at 25 mph. At 18 mph those super wheels will gain you 0.27 mph. Not much to write home about.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> At 18 mph those super wheels will gain you 0.27 mph. Not much to write home about.


That's about 25% of my average speed daily fluctuation, even without swapping wheels.


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> You need to ride with less gullible and more truthful "Some" then. There's only *one* thing on or around a bike that is everything and it's you. There is no rim or wheelset whose benefit doesn't get lost in the overall noise and normal variation of everyday riding. If any wheelset provided a minor benefit over another it would be a handful of seconds in a flat-out longish ride. But then you almost never ride flat-out for long rides and if you did you'd be competing against those with similar wheels anyway and not against you on your old wheels.
> 
> 
> They are the wise ones. Unless you're at the top of your potential then you have the probable ability to improve by many minutes over a long ride. Nothing you can buy for a bike will gain you more than a fraction of a minute.
> ...


LOL Mike T...my sarcasm about this topic got ya...and yeah...cause 'I want to' is mostly right...or more like... 'cause I can'


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

It amazes me that people spend $2000 on carbon wheels. I see guys commuting to work on the bike trail riding their carbon wheels and carrying 25 lbs of crap in a backpack. 

For $600-$800 you can get a really nice set of custom wheels that weigh around 1500 grams, are super strong and ride really nicely. Far superior to factory wheels that cost that much or more. 

In the end its not whether they will increase your performance, because for most of us they won't, its whether that $2000 expenditure will make you happier than something else you can buy for $2000. None of use really needs expensive bikes, but they sure are fun to ride.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

everything motorcycles said:


> LOL Mike T...my sarcasm about this topic got ya...and yeah...cause 'I want to' is mostly right...or more like... 'cause I can'


Posting the question "AM I WASTING MY time/money? " paints a different picture to the reader about you and your knowledge on cycling performance than "...cause 'I want to' is mostly right...or more like... 'cause I can' ".

Mike T has given you a very solid advice if you were truly wondering whether or not new wheels would give you tangible speed benefits.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

"Are 'quality' rims going to make me better???"

My reference point for great wheels is riding my Campy tubular wheels w/ Continental Sprinter tires. They are incredibly light compared to any other clincher I've ever ridden. But not just light, also more comfortable, responsive, and have the much better "road feel" compared to "standard" OEM wheels found on $2-3K bikes. By that I mean absorb bumps better with less jarring, but also cornering and handling, and yes, feel better climbing. 
Do I enjoy riding them more? yes
Do I ride more when I enjoy it? yes

Does riding more possibly make me "better"? likely yes

Now if I can get clincher wheels that feel like my tubulars, I'll be all set 

My best advise to any newish road rider who wants to get better - get a device on your handlebars that shows you your real-time cadence. I use a Garmin. Don't bother looking at speed or distance, just ride looking at cadence, and shift to keep decent resistance, but always keep cadence above 80, then 85, then 90, and so on. When you can do 30 miles and keep the cadence above 90, you'll likely notice your average speed has gone up considerably. 

Enjoying the ride with more comfort helps a lot though. And in my mind, wheels and tires (the best tires/tubes are lots cheaper than best wheels) are a big part of that.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Z'mer said:


> Now if I can get clincher wheels that feel like my tubulars, I'll be all set


Challenge open tubs with Vittoria latex tubes maybe?





Z'mer said:


> My best advise to any newish road rider who wants to get better - get a device on your handlebars that shows you your real-time cadence. I use a Garmin. Don't bother looking at speed or distance, just ride looking at cadence, and shift to keep decent resistance, but always keep cadence above 80, then 85, then 90, and so on. When you can do 30 miles and keep the cadence above 90, you'll likely notice your average speed has gone up considerably.
> 
> Enjoying the ride with more comfort helps a lot though. And in my mind, wheels and tires (the best tires/tubes are lots cheaper than best wheels) are a big part of that.


Ditto!:thumbsup:


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Z'mer said:


> Now if I can get clincher wheels that feel like my tubulars, I'll be all set


25mm Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX with 50 gram Conti Ultra-lite tubes aired to 80f/90r maybe?



> My best advise to any newish road rider who wants to get better - get a device on your handlebars that shows you your real-time cadence. I use a Garmin. Don't bother looking at speed or distance, just ride looking at cadence, and shift to keep decent resistance, but always keep cadence above 80, then 85, then 90, and so on. When you can do 30 miles and keep the cadence above 90, you'll likely notice your average speed has gone up considerably.


Tritto!

What great advice for a Newby Z'mer. Well done.



> Enjoying the ride with more comfort helps a lot though. And in my mind, wheels and tires (the best tires/tubes are lots cheaper than best wheels) are a big part of that.


If there was one piece of stand-alone good advice it would be about tires - buy the best "racing" clinchers available (heck I got a load of 25mm Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX for $33 each the last time I ordered) and don't inflate them too hard. What else provides as much pleasure, quality, reliability, speed, handling & comfort for so little.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Mike T. said:


> If there was one piece of stand-alone good advice it would be about tires - buy the best "racing" clinchers available (heck I got a load of 25mm Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX for $33 each the last time I ordered) and don't inflate them too hard. What else provides as much pleasure, quality, reliability, speed, handling & comfort for so little.


The Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX tires provide a very silky ride, that's for sure.

One caveat based on personal experience...they can lose traction unexpectedly when cornering on wet pavement. Others have commented on this phenomenon as well. I've read this issue has been addressed with the CX III version, but I have not tried them.

I was running the 25mm version on my Cannondale SuperSix EVO (new bike...only five rides...so hadn't spotted any idiosyncrasies) until two days ago when I discovered the 25mm rear tire was rubbing on the drive side chain stay. Had to swap for 23mm tires.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tvad said:


> The Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX.......One caveat based on personal experience...they can lose traction unexpectedly when cornering on wet pavement. Others have commented on this phenomenon as well. I've read this issue has been addressed with the CX III version, but I have not tried them.


As I don't race anymore (but still train) and rarely never elect to ride in wet conditions, I have no experience of hard cornering in the wet with them. As I have nothing to gain from fast cornering around damp corners, I just take them reasonably. I prefer not to prove or disprove your claim.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Mike T. said:


> As I don't race anymore (but still train) and rarely never elect to ride in wet conditions, I have no experience of hard cornering in the wet with them. As I have nothing to gain from fast cornering around damp corners, I just take them reasonably. I prefer not to prove or disprove your claim.


I was going about 16mph around a hairpin...only maybe 3% grade...and whoosh! Out went my back wheel. 

I hope the new version improves this, because as you say, the tires provide an exceptionally nice ride.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tvad said:


> I was going about 16mph around a hairpin...only maybe 3% grade...and whoosh! Out went my back wheel.


OMG, I don't corner in anger anymore but I certainly go those types of speeds!


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## genux (Jun 18, 2012)

I had that same itch. I had the DT Axis 2.0 wheels that came stock with the Specialized Secteur. They were changed to DT Axis 3.0 after some defects were found in my set.

If these are your first set, it's hard to know exactly what a good or bad tire is, especially since there's no good reference for comparison. You then end up relying on what other people say for what makes a "good" or "bad" wheelset.

Fortunately, my LBS steered me in the right direction and told me NOT to buy anything else given my riding and skill level (i.e. it just wasn't worth it). I finally got to scratch that itch when I scored a set of Mavic Ksyrium SLs at a local swap meet (~1.5 years old, 1,200 miles, true) for under $180. Honestly, the only initial difference I noticed right away was that the new wheelset was louder — my old freehubs were dead quiet, whereas Mavics have that lovely (or annoying) tic-tic-tic sound when coasting.

If you really want to scratch that itch without paying much, consider renting them for a weekend or so. Take 'em for a spin in your favorite routes to see for yourself if it's really worth buying.

I'm sticking to my LBS's advise for now though, which is buy only when you've broken/worn-out the components.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

tvad said:


> I was going about 16mph around a hairpin...only maybe 3% grade...and whoosh! Out went my back wheel.
> 
> I hope the new version improves this, because as you say, the tires provide an exceptionally nice ride.


You probably hit some oil where pretty much any tire would have reacted the same way. 
Roads can get very slippery when wet and your choice of tire ain't going to make much difference if you hit a bad spot. It's pretty rare but if you hit a nice oil patch it's like ice.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Jay Strongbow said:


> You probably hit some oil where pretty much any tire would have reacted the same way.
> Roads can get very slippery when wet and your choice of tire ain't going to make much difference if you hit a bad spot. It's pretty rare but if you hit a nice oil patch it's like ice.


This is true. What you say about oil on the wet road and any tire losing grip cannot be denied.

However, as I mentioned, others have commented on the Vittoria's lack of grip on wet roads, so I'm not alone on this. I've ridden the same corner dozens of times in wet conditions on other tires without problems. Maybe I just didn't hit an oil spot, so I managed to keep the rubber on the road.

I fractured my wrist on that fall...so I choose not to ride the Vittoria tires (CX II version) in wet conditions any longer.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> 25mm Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX .


Mike , how wide they get on 15mm or 17mm inner width rim if you dont mind measuring them?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dcgriz said:


> Mike , how wide they get on 15mm or 17mm inner width rim if you dont mind measuring them?


I don't have any mounted right now (they're summer tires for me) but I've measured them before on Open Pro rims. They were 26mm.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> I don't have any mounted right now (they're summer tires for me) but I've measured them before on Open Pro rims. They were 26mm.


Ok thanks. Then most probably around 27-27.5mm on the 17s


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

What do you think of the ZIPP 202, I'm told it's a 'climbing' wheel. Why, because it is lighter then their 303 'aero' design? 

I can get a or single front for a great deal...they will be lighter better quality then my dt axis 3.0 regardless, no?

There's just no climbing here in So Flo.


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

I chime in with a "don't forget to give ROL a look" often. I have been extremely pleased with the quality of my Race SL wheels. I often get plenty of interest at a LBS with them. I had a mechanic at a local shop talking about the build of them Thursday (he was also checking out my Praxis chain rings). He had it up on a stand playing with the front shifting and noticed how smooth the wheels feel. That started a discussion about them. It's always "hmmm...haven't seen these before."

Either way...I love them, the ride quality is immediate over my stock Fulcrums. At least give them a look if your considering sub $1K wheels...


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

Pretty interesting...as I click on this post...there's an AD for ROL wheels right next to my post! internet is a funny thing eh?


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

everything motorcycles said:


> Pretty interesting...as I click on this post...there's an AD for ROL wheels right next to my post! internet is a funny thing eh?


I believe they're a "sponsor" of this area...thus the ad more than likely.

I stumbled on a review of their stuff on youtube...then I started reading about their wheels and decided to get a set. Funny...I was dead set on Mavic before finding them and HED at the same time. I'm still 50/50 on the whole "HED vs ROL" thing. Possibly, if I have some spare $$ some time, I'll look into their stuff (or even possibly FLO wheels too)...


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## tvJefe (Dec 25, 2012)

My buddy got a set of Rols and swears by them. Seems like a great value. Hub is loud as heck though.


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

tvJefe said:


> My buddy got a set of Rols and swears by them. Seems like a great value. Hub is loud as heck though.


I can't deny that...they are super loud. I ride with one guy that has a set of ZIPP's and they sound quite a bit like them in terms of freehub buzz.

LOL...it annoys the crap out of my wife when I'm working on the bike in the basement and I spin up the wheel, that buzz is loud if I don't hit the brakes.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Typetwelve said:


> I can't deny that...they are super loud. I ride with one guy that has a set of ZIPP's and they sound quite a bit like them in terms of freehub buzz.
> it annoys the crap out of my wife when I'm working on the bike in the basement and I spin up the wheel, that buzz is loud if I don't hit the brakes.


There is a very good chance that a bit of extra lube on the pawls will quieten those hubs down substantially.


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## keppler (May 25, 2007)

Money isn't wasted on a wheelset, if it's the right wheelset.

I had a set of wheels built, had problems with them, I bought Campy Eurus and they have been outstanding, 5 years and still riding them.

I bought used Ambrosio Nemesis tubular wheels, weigh as much as the Eurus, also outstanding to ride on with zero issues.

Neither wheelset as made me faster, or slower, but I can ride them with confidence flat out anytime I want, so I never have to hold back.

I would never get carbon wheels if you don't race, they're super expensive, noisy, have iffy braking (especially in wet), and except for looking cool they are all the wrong reasons to get for daily riding.


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## everything motorcycles (May 2, 2013)

That RoL has an aluminum rim (braking) and CF aero part, looked very cool.Light too.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Mike T. said:


> There is a very good chance that a bit of extra lube on the pawls will quieten those hubs down substantially.


Absolutely correct. Zipp ships their wheels with dry hub shells. Don't know why...but it can cause annoying creaking. When I had my LBS grease the hubs shells and bearings, the creaking went away, and the "ZZZZZ...." freewheeling volume diminished by half.


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

everything motorcycles said:


> That RoL has an aluminum rim (braking) and CF aero part, looked very cool.Light too.


I think FLO does that as well. My Race SL is a "semi aero" 30mm all aluminum wheel though, no CF wrap...


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## disaster999 (Jan 28, 2013)

I rode on Mavic Ksyrium Elites for around 2 years and I got the itch of upgrading to Carbon wheels, just purely for the bling factor. After researching a bit, I decided to buy a set of Zipp 303 FC. It was a perfect all round wheel for climbs and flats and the FC design really helps in cross wind. The Zipp was over 200g lighter than the Mavics and picking up the bike it did feel lighter, but it lacked the wow factor I was hoping.

The bike didnt feel all that lighter when riding, and it didnt seem like I was able to bike faster than before. Cross winds was a lot easier to tackle and I didnt have to constantly fight it. Sprints helped a little as there was less inertia. 

If you are thinking of a major improvement then you will be greatly disappointed, but there is the bling factor going for you....so thats nice


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