# Change the gearing on late 80s Dura Ace?



## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

Hey guys, so I am enjoying the feel of this old steel bike I acquired recently (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/retro-classic/90s-rei-novara-worth-$250-270731.html) I can now understand what people mean when they say 'Steel is real!' Definitely smooths out the road underneath you, without giving you that deadened feeling of carbon.

Anyway, only thing I am not enjoying is the unforgiving gearing on the bike. Currently, I am out of shape and I find myself sticking to the lowest chain ring and the first 3 speeds on the rear; only going up to the second chainring while descending or sprinting. 

I was wondering, how easy/hard is it to change the gearing of the old components on this bike? It's late 80s Dura Ace, which means a 6 speed freewheel and a 39t-54t crank. I looked up freewheel prices online, and they go for upwards of $90 for new old stock(!).. that's half the amount I spent buying this old bike! Maybe I could change out the highest individual sprockets for ones with more teeth? Or I could change out the chainrings in the front to a compact setup (34/50t), since 39/54t is a far cry from the compact crankset i'm familiar with on my newer road bike. Only problem with the sprocket/chainring changes is I'm not sure if it will screw up the deraillers. Anyone have any suggestions?


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## D. W. Davis (Feb 21, 2007)

Assuming the current freewheel, etc., function adequately, I wonder if you might be better off in the long run continuing to ride with what you have. It's my bet that as you ride more, you will begin using more (higher) gears as you fitness level improves.

My old Dura Ace is incompatible with everything else Shimano made at the time, hence my recommendation for consideration.

Best wishes.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

The easiest thing believe it or not is the compact crankset option. THats the most bang for your buck.

Your older dura ace 6 speed set up is nice, but if i am recalling correctly the rear der and shifter have to work only with other dura ace equipment. You couldnt swap in a 105 or 600 part into that set up.

I get that you dont want to spend a ton. SO the compact is your best bet to get lower gears right away. 

Bill


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

So would any modern compact crankset work with this old bike? I have never changed out a crankset before, so would it be easy to learn to do so, or is that a job for the shop? Looks like most of the compacts I am seeing on Froogle go for $50-$80, which is definitely not bad compared to straight $90 for a freewheel. Only thing I am worried about again is compatibility. Will the new crankset play well with the spacing of the FD/bottom bracket/etc?

But the more I think about it, the more D. W. Davis' suggestion looks better. Getting stronger is free, and is something you want to be striving for, anyway! And I am having second thoughts about the size of the bike, too.. feels pretty small compared to my modern road bike, and I think throwing more money at a bike that probably doesn't fit me well would be unwise; at least, before getting a proper fitting, anyway..


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## barkingdog90 (Mar 1, 2012)

Take it easy. Knee surgery and rehab cost more than $90.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

barkingdog90 said:


> Take it easy. Knee surgery and rehab cost more than $90.


Okay? That doesn't really help.

Well, I have decided to cheap out and keep the old gearing since it's still practically new. Also, because I threw money at commuter crap for the damn bike . But assuming I will want to 'upgrade' later down the line to a compact, would the new chainring shapes play well with the older 6-8 speed chains and freewheel?


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## fiataccompli (Jul 27, 2008)

why not get a taller freewheel? I don't think the spacing between the cogs changed between DA & other Shimano or Suntour freewheels (maybe...well, unless you get one of the Suntour Ultra freewheels, I guess...)..anyway, you can get a new (or newer) lesser quality freewheel that gives you something along the lines of 13-27 (+/-) and be fine with the 39/53 crank. I've done this on a lot of older 6 or 7 speed road bikes. I live in eastern TN with lots of hills, so I try to run something in the area of 39/53 in front & 11/25-12/27 in the rear...most bikes 'barn fresh' from the '80s will have something like 42/52 in front & 13/21 in the rear....but, then again, I love it when the flatlanders give up on their corncob geared road bikes and sell them cheap after retiring to TN!


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## D. W. Davis (Feb 21, 2007)

I believe the DA from that period was incompatible with other levels of Shimano or other systems. The idea was that DA users must be racers and therefore would want quicker shifts.


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## ScottInCincinnati (Feb 20, 2004)

Regarding compatibility, I have a bike with 8 speed DA (7400) where the derailluer and levers are DA, but the rear cassette is Shimano 600. It shifts just fine.

I don't know about the 6 speed stuff, I know DA stuff was unique at many times in its life. I just know that the 7400 stuff works fine with other Shimano clusters.


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## fiataccompli (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm 99% sure the variations between DA and the lesser lines of Shimano had to do with cable pull rather than cog spacing, so any cassette or freewheel cogset ought to work with a properly mated shifting system. Also there are good Sheldon Brown www documents on how you can mix & match DA & other lines as well if so inclined.


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## tmf (Mar 7, 2012)

I think your best bet is a new wider-geared freewheel. I believe any standard spaced 6sp freewheel will work just fine (cogs spaced at ~5.5mm). As mentioned above, the Suntour Ultra would not since it has narrow spacing (cogs spaced at ~5.0mm).


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

You never said what your old freewheel is, but from the pics you posted in the other thread it looks like a failrly wide range anyway, so you might not get much from changing it. But it wouldn't be expensive to try. I don't know where you saw $90 for a freewheel, but you don't need that. You don't need Dura-ace. New 6-speed freewheels are still made, and they cost about $25. If i'm not mistaken you have friction shifters, so there's no compatibility issue. Even if they're indexed, the spacing is the same 

So what's your biggest cog now? If it's a 26 or 28 you could get a 14-34 to help you with those hills. Cheap change.

If they are friction shifters, you could even put a 7-speed fw on there.


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

13thcyclist said:


> I was wondering, how easy/hard is it to change the gearing of the old components on this bike? It's late 80s Dura Ace, which means a 6 speed freewheel and a 39t-54t crank. I looked up freewheel prices online, and they go for upwards of $90 for new old stock(!)


Are you sure you have a freewheel and not a cassette? I've replaced individual Dura Ace 6 speed sprockets to get the gearing I need.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

JCavilia said:


> You never said what your old freewheel is, but from the pics you posted in the other thread it looks like a failrly wide range anyway, so you might not get much from changing it. But it wouldn't be expensive to try. I don't know where you saw $90 for a freewheel, but you don't need that. You don't need Dura-ace. New 6-speed freewheels are still made, and they cost about $25. If i'm not mistaken you have friction shifters, so there's no compatibility issue. Even if they're indexed, the spacing is the same
> 
> So what's your biggest cog now? If it's a 26 or 28 you could get a 14-34 to help you with those hills. Cheap change.
> 
> If they are friction shifters, you could even put a 7-speed fw on there.


Not very wide for where I live! 11/12?-24t. Definitely _not_ an acceptable tall gear for the hills I climb, considering I also have to carry a ~20-30 lb backpack on my rack too:mad2:

I got the $90 estimate by searching Froogle for 'dura ace 6 speed freewheel', so I guess it's because it's 'from the era' new Dura Ace freewheels. I guess those are more for antique collectors than commuters like me  . I was led to believe the whole time that the entire drive train _must_ be Dura Ace or your bike will explode . But apparently that doesn't apply to freewheel/cassettes, only the shifters/derailleurs?



Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> Are you sure you have a freewheel and not a cassette? I've replaced individual Dura Ace 6 speed sprockets to get the gearing I need.


I'm not sure actually, but since it's so old (Dura Ace 80s...), I am pretty sure it's a freewheel. How do you check that? Also, how do I remove the freewheel when I do decide to replace it? (which is very soon, now that I see the freewheels aren't absurdly expensive..) And is there a limit to how tall the largest cog can be for a 6 speed Dura Ace RD? I am hoping to get a 34t in there maybe..


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

13thcyclist said:


> I'm not sure actually, but since it's so old (Dura Ace 80s...), I am pretty sure it's a freewheel. How do you check that? Also, how do I remove the freewheel when I do decide to replace it? (which is very soon, now that I see the freewheels aren't absurdly expensive..) And is there a limit to how tall the largest cog can be for a 6 speed Dura Ace RD? I am hoping to get a 34t in there maybe..


First you need to determine whether you have a freewhell hub or cassette hub. I have Dura Ace AX and EX hubs that utilize 6 speed cassettes. That's pretty old, going back to the early '80s. I doubt you will be able to get a 34 to work. If I remember correctly, the Dura Ace cassettes from that time period were Uniglide and any sprocket will be inter-changable except for the very first, which in your case is not a big deal. All the others can be changed out with sprockets of other sizes. Your limiting factor will be the capacity of the derailleur.


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

I find that Loose Screws is a good place for old parts. The links below are to a 13-28 7-speed and a 50 t chainring that will will fit a DA crank. You will have to move the SIS indicator to friction mode on the rear shift lever and fiddle with the adjusting screw on the rear derailler but this will increase your gear range 

Shimano HG 7 speed Freewheel 13-15-17-19-21-24-28 Freewheel Complete Freewheels 7 Speed

Sugino 50T Aluminum Outer Chainring 130mm BCD Crank/Chainring 130mm BCD, 5 bolt


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> Are you sure you have a freewheel and not a cassette? I've replaced individual Dura Ace 6 speed sprockets to get the gearing I need.


Since the boys didn't explain this distinction, here's a picture courtesy of Sheldon Brown, and a link to explain as well.

One thing to add--if the existing chain./rear sprockets are worn, I would replace freewheel and chain at the same time, since the old freewheels tended to wear along with the chain, and sometimes a new freewheel will skip with the old chain.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

I went to the LBS today and asked their opinion on options to take for changing the gearing. Mel, a really helpful guy there, suggested changing the freewheel (he confirmed it is a freewheel) by itself as the cheapest @ $20 +$5 labor. I went for that route. He installed a 14-28 freewheel to replace the anemic 12-24 that was previously on there.

The only problem with the new freewheel is, the old Dura Ace RD was only made to clear a 26t at most. So the B-limit screw is pretty much maxed out, and when I try to backpedal on the 28t, it is really iffy and sometimes 'catches', if that makes sense. Basically, the upper pulley is occasionally rubbing on the 28t sprocket, but only while backpedaling. Mel said that shouldn't be a problem as long as I don't backpedal or run the big-big combination. I hope he's right because backpedaling on that 28t makes some really scary noises .

Aside from that little problem, Mel suggested I also replace the RD to an Acera or other <9speed mtb derailleur so I can clear the 28t or even get myself a 34t! But that also requires a new shifter if I don't want to deal with friction mode, right? Might as well spring for a cassette upgrade to 8 or 9 speed at that point. And he said that a compact crankset would further help get me the hill climbing ratios I need, and it would be compatible if I found a square taper 109-110mm spindle version. Bonus: Don't need to replace the FD or anything, just gotta drop it lower to fit the smaller rings!

But really, I am hesitant to drop even more money on this bike. Like I said before, the bike isn't the most optimal size.. about 2 sizes too small from my ideal 58cm size. But it's usually easier to make a smaller frame work, and it is working well for me so far now that I have the flexibility to deal with the raised seat + flat stems of older bikes. I'll have to see for the next few months if this bike is worth keeping as a commuter. If it is, cool, I have a bike I can ride around in the rain and beat up and not care (too much..) if it gets stolen or something horrible happens. If not, I can resell it for a lot more than I got it for and use the profit for a new-er bike (convert my Giant Defy to the commuter then.)


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

The bike has friction shifters at present? If so, you should be able to shift just about any derailleur with them.

Glad you got some lower gears. I'm currently using a 13-29 since I'm old, and in theory I should have a medium or long cage derailleur to do so, but I'm careful and avoid big-big and it has been fine.


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## stevebul (Dec 6, 2011)

I wonder if that 54-39 crank set is the original one that came on the bike. That's like something a sprinter ( Cipo ) would use on a flat race stage. Most people couldn't even turn over a 54-11 or 12 unless they were going down a really steep desent.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

stevebul said:


> I wonder if that 54-39 crank set is the original one that came on the bike. That's like something a sprinter ( Cipo ) would use on a flat race stage. Most people couldn't even turn over a 54-11 or 12 unless they were going down a really steep desent.


I think I was mistaken on the 54t.. I am pretty sure (don't have the bike in front of me right now) it is actually a standard double 39-52t. If it were a 54t, I really never would use that at my current strength (which is not much as a lightweight climber!)



paredown said:


> The bike has friction shifters at present? If so, you should be able to shift just about any derailleur with them.
> 
> Glad you got some lower gears. I'm currently using a 13-29 since I'm old, and in theory I should have a medium or long cage derailleur to do so, but I'm careful and avoid big-big and it has been fine.


Yep, the new gears haven't been a problem so far after one 30 mile ride. As long as I don't backpedal the small chainring-large sprocket combination (who really backpedals these days?) or run the big-big like you said (common sense), I should be fine with using a short cage Dura Ace RD with such a large cog. Besides, I don't want to sully the vintage nature of this bike by removing the classique Dura Ace for some lowly MTB derailleurs 

Speaking of Dura Ace derailleurs, does anyone know if this Sheldon Brown article holds any truth, specifically the compatibility table: Shimano Dura-Ace Compatibility (yes I am asking if Sheldon Brown is correct, so sue me if I don't have blind faith ) If I really can just upgrade to 8 speed while keeping the current DA RD and get away with just needing a new cassette and shifter for that, I am totally up for it. The problem though is finding an 8 speed indexed Dura Ace DT shifter (yes, I value the vintage look enough to be consistent down to the lettering engraved on the DT shifters ) I am sure I could just get used to friction shifting on the 6 speed indexed DT shifter on there right now, but I'd much prefer the convenience of index shifting. Along with that, does anyone know if I can finally change out the rear wheel for a freehub version w/8 speed cassette, or do I still have to stick with freewheels for the 8 spd upgrade?


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

13thcyclist said:


> I think I was mistaken on the 54t.. I am pretty sure (don't have the bike in front of me right now) it is actually a standard double 39-52t. If it were a 54t, I really never would use that at my current strength (which is not much as a lightweight climber!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If Dave Hickey doesn't see these last Shimano questions you might send him a pm--or start it as a new thread that he will see. I know nothing about Shimano, although I do tend to rely on Sheldon....


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## tmf (Mar 7, 2012)

13thcyclist said:


> Along with that, does anyone know if I can finally change out the rear wheel for a freehub version w/8 speed cassette, or do I still have to stick with freewheels for the 8 spd upgrade?


I believe there is only one option for an 8 spd freewheel - SunRace.

You could change out your wheel to one with an 8 spd freehub, but I don't think you'll have to if the SunRace freewheel works. If you get everything working with the 8 speed freewheel first, you could always add 8 spd freehub wheel into the mix later! (I like having extra wheels hanging around...)

You should be able to find DA 8spd downtube levers on ebay without too much difficulty. The bar end shifters (SL-BS77) might also be an option (if you couldn't find the downtube levers).


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