# Does anyone think the TDF is clean?



## Roar (Sep 12, 2009)

Apologies if this is just the dumbest question ever... 

Is there a consensus re whether the 2013 TDF is clean? 

Are there any teams (or individuals) who are reputed to be clean? 

I am curious to know what everyone thinks...


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

I don't think the race is 100% clean. I don't think it ever was, or ever will be, 100% clean. 

Some are. Some aren't.

Some utilize sophisticated methods - micro dosing, cocktails, etc... to dope as much as possible without triggering a positive.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Bluenote said:


> I don't think the race is 100% clean. I don't think it ever was, or ever will be, 100% clean.
> 
> Some are. Some aren't.
> 
> Some utilize sophisticated methods - micro dosing, cocktails, etc... to dope as much as possible without triggering a positive.


What?!?!? But, but, Bob Roll just said that the peloton is now clean. Bob wouldn't lie to us, would he?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

blood transfusions seem to be _de rigueur_ even in the ranks of weekend racers... of course the TdF is rife with those seeking any edge they can get "within the spirit of the rules"


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

The only thing clean in the TdF are the bikes.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

yes, the riders are all clean.

now the officials can focus on real problems like stopping riders from drafting on team cars and getting those little sneaky assists when handing over water bottles...


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Probably "cleaner" than 2005.....or 1998, or 1997.
.
.
"clean" is a relative term....Do you mean cleaner than other sports?
.
.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

asciibaron said:


> blood transfusions seem to be _de rigueur_ even in the ranks of weekend racers... of course the TdF is rife with those seeking any edge they can get "within the spirit of the rules"


Yes, weekend racers get transfusions. Were you the one who quit racing because you claimed your competition was doping?


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

The Tour-day isn't clean now and will never be. As posted above there is doping tech ahead of the testing tech. I have just accepted it, and it diminishes my fandom of pro cycling. I feel like I'm watching Wrestle-Mania on bikes. But I still watch it.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Sure it is clean. Clean cycling is how 7 Cannondale riders rode away from Argos, Omega, and Lotto yesterday! Greipel could hardly contain himself in his post race interview.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Oxtox said:


> yes, the riders are all clean.


Only when they get out of the shower each day


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## Spesh79 (Jul 6, 2013)

Or how Sky crushed everyone today. Porte comes back over the top after setting tempo for Froome to take 2nd? Come on....


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

Spesh79 said:


> Or how Sky crushed everyone today. Porte comes back over the top after setting tempo for Froome to take 2nd? Come on....


From cyclingnews:

5km remaining from 195km16:40:40 CEST
Froome comes through to the front and grinds away from Porte and Quintana. The two Sky riders seem to be on another planet to the rest of the race, not unlike Heras and Armstrong in the Pyrenees in 2002.



pretty much my feeling. Evans was the last "clean" rider to win, and I'm not sure about that either.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

"extraterrestrial" performances today


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

Spesh79 said:


> Or how Sky crushed everyone today. Porte comes back over the top after setting tempo for Froome to take 2nd? Come on....


So for this perfomance, and Cannondale's yesterday, what is the thought RE doping? Are those teams taking blood before the stage and the others aren't? Are they taking more or better recovery drugs prior to? Is their team doping program just better?

The latter I can see when it comes to Sky and the US Postal quote is apt. But I have to think that Contador and Rodriguez and Rojas and Kreuzinger and Hesjedal and Valverde and Schleck and the other leaders are all getting the best PEDs the team can supply. Is it just a question of misjudging the importance of the stage?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

grandprix said:


> So for this perfomance, and Cannondale's yesterday, what is the thought RE doping? Are those teams taking blood before the stage and the others aren't? Are they taking more or better recovery drugs prior to? Is their team doping program just better?
> 
> The latter I can see when it comes to Sky and the US Postal quote is apt. But I have to think that Contador and Rodriguez and Rojas and Kreuzinger and Hesjedal and Valverde and Schleck and the other leaders are all getting the best PEDs the team can supply. Is it just a question of misjudging the importance of the stage?


And then someone (not named for spoiler) today dumps Old Steak Face by almost a minute on a mountain today.


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## Cycho (Mar 18, 2012)

People who use dope are idiots. I am really tired of trying to protect them from their selves. I think all illicit drugs should be made licit and made readily available for any idiot who wants them. I don't mean just performance enhancing substances used in sports. I mean all of them, crack, heroin, meth, etc... It would be much cheaper for us as a society to produce the drugs and deliver them to anyone stupid enough to use them free of charge. They wouldn't have to steal or rob to get their fix, and the money saved on law enforcement, prosecution, and incarceration could be used to treat those who choose to get clean. I would also create a separate category for those who dope in sports. In cycling the leading clean rider would wear a yellow jersey and the lead doper would wear red. Then this BS wouldn't be the open secret it is, and respect can be given accordingly.

Give people all the dope they want and let Darwin sort them out.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Today's numbers (via Veloclinic):

1715m/h aVAM, 1.89% faster than 2002-2007 D(oping)pVAM and about 4.85% faster than 2008-2013 pVAM. Averaging ~6.28 W/Kg, or CPL of 6.5 W/kg. 3rd fastest in tour history behind Laiseka and Pharmstrong in '01. Only by about 20 and 15 seconds.

Extraterrestrial? Most likely.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Marc said:


> And then someone (not named for spoiler) today dumps Old Steak Face by almost a minute on a mountain today.


Other than his tired performance in 2011 due to the Giro, when was the last time someone simply dropped Clenbutador?


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

Marc said:


> And then someone (not named for spoiler) today dumps Old Steak Face by almost a minute on a mountain today.


I don't have much doubt about Froome being on the program, Porte too. I always had Porte down as a rouleur and not a climber. Would never have imagined him having the beating of Dope-a-dor.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I think they are all clean, but they should outlaw them damn aero helmets. Unfair advantage to the teams that aren't using them. And Sky are using aero shoes, supposed to gain you .167 meters over the course of 100 miles, cheaters.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

nOOky said:


> I think they are all clean, but they should outlaw them damn aero helmets. Unfair advantage to the teams that aren't using them. And Sky are using aero shoes, supposed to gain you .167 meters over the course of 100 miles, cheaters.


Don't forget those more aerodynamic 25mm wide rims.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

Marc said:


> And then someone (not named for spoiler) today dumps Old Steak Face by almost a minute on a mountain today.


Yes. One team in one stage going to the front and setting a pace that drops everyone but the top end climbers is believable. Two of their riders (one of whom had been working) then riding away from everyone else is much less so. That Sky is likely to do this again and again over the whole month is even less so.

If all the teams have access to the same PED technology I'm wondering what they are doing with their program that the others aren't, or is it just strategy of what to use and when?

Cannondale I could see. They obviously executed a plan to ride all the other sprinters off their wheel, knowing Sagan would hang. So spending some of the PED budget on that stage could catch the other teams by surprise, whereas it is hard to see a similar surprise working on today's climb.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Don't be a killjoy. Suspend your disbelief.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Don't be a killjoy. Suspend your disbelief.


I'll still watch and still enjoy the thing, actually interested in the PED strategy. It appears to be one of the more important considerations, certainly more important than the things Freds agonize over like disc brakes or not or which tires to ride.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Don't be a killjoy. Suspend your disbelief.


Meh, I just view it as entertainment and scenery when I'm doing my indoor base miles. Besides, it's only bad if dopers aren't nice guys, right?


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

spade2you said:


> Other than his tired performance in 2011 due to the Giro, when was the last time someone simply dropped Clenbutador?


I seem to recall him struggling a bit in the Vuelta last year but recovering in the end to win the race, if my memory serves me properly.



Edit: 

After looking at the 2012 Vuelta results, I see that the minute that Purito had over Contador before he took it back was earned little by little over several stages rather than all at once. Contador got dropped in 2011 when everyone was just figuring that he was tired from the Giro and the last person to drop him before that I suppose was Rasmussen. .

Sky was extraordinary today. I was trying really hard not to think it but it reminded me so much of US Postal that the thoughts were inevitable. Froome and Porte absolutely humiliated three former Tour winners, each with multiple GT podiums. .


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

As Lance said, can't win the TdF (esp like Sky did today) w/o some juice!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

grandprix said:


> I'll still watch and still enjoy the thing, actually interested in the PED strategy.


What can we know about strategy that isn't backdated 3-5 years? 

All we have to go on now is wild speculation. 

Dominating ride? "Oh yeah, he's taking oral EPO/microdosing/genedoping/eating moose antler/fresh off a new blood bag."


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## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

I'm suspicious of anyone who's been involved in Olympic competition a la' Sky Team boss Sir Dave Brailsford's 10 year career as Brit Olympic track team coach


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

I feel sorry for all of you who can't dream big!

Bunch of bone idle wank*rs!


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> What can we know about strategy that isn't backdated 3-5 years?


True, because anti-doping is so poorly managed. But if you roll back 3-5 years, knowing the details of who did what and when to get an advantage over other PED aided teams could be helpful.

Or maybe not.

People assume doping is behind dominating rides because, by and large, it has been proven. Anti-doping agencies have done little to nothing to actually stop it so it is safe to assume that is still is.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Roar said:


> Apologies if this is just the dumbest question ever...
> 
> Is there a consensus re whether the 2013 TDF is clean?
> 
> ...



It's about as clean as a Sewer ... but no less fun to watch


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

Wookiebiker said:


> It's about as clean as a Sewer ... but no less fun to watch


A brand new Sewer is clean...at first!

I like to watch it, too...regardless of the so-called "doping" going on.

All those purists...who don't (or just can't bear to) watch it anymore....really!?!?
*It's like saying, "Oh, I don't listen to or own any albums by such-and-such artist." But, you know that "artist" is (but one of) their guilty pleasures!!!


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

As disconcerted as Froome's performance today made me, the performance of the rest of the GC contenders in comparison to it made me think that _maybe_ I can have faith that the peloton really is, at the very least, a good bit cleaner than it used to be.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I still throw a big question mark at Europacar. They got a pretty free pass last month on the investigation. Something smells fishy in that camp.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

grandprix said:


> I'll still watch and still enjoy the thing, actually interested in the PED strategy. It appears to be one of the more important considerations, certainly more important than the things Freds agonize over like disc brakes or not or which tires to ride.


Oh definitely!
What PEDs Froome and Co are taking, and how they microdose is far, far more important than the choosing which actual compents will be on the bike I ride.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

"I've never tested positive, therefore I've never doped." (by a nameless admitted doper who now reads "O" magazine). 

Are they all clean? Certainly not. Is the Tour clean? Certainly not.


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## tdi-rick (Oct 2, 2007)

After Porte's performance today, do you still think he's on the juice ?

Looked like the result of digging too deep yesterday and the body still hadn't recovered. If there was syn EPO/blood doping/whatever involved he'd still be right with the leading pack.

To me (and call me an idealist), seeing inconsistent performances like we're getting this year looks far more 'clean' than the seemingly superhuman performances we were used to seeing through the nineties/naughties.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

IDK, keep in mind that riders still cracked in the EPO era. Then again, if lots of riders crack equally, perhaps it is.


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

tdi-rick said:


> After Porte's performance today, do you still think he's on the juice ?
> 
> Looked like the result of digging too deep yesterday and the body still hadn't recovered. If there was syn EPO/blood doping/whatever involved he'd still be right with the leading pack.
> 
> To me (and call me an idealist), seeing inconsistent performances like we're getting this year looks far more 'clean' than the seemingly superhuman performances we were used to seeing through the nineties/naughties.


Wow, even after all the Lance drama...some of you still hold out that ALL the GC riders are clean as the driven snow. Porte playing the "I'm really exhausted from yesterday's hard day in the mountains...wink, wink...so I'll lay low today...wink, wink" card...what a fricken sham. 

You guys are so naïve. I know, I know...innocent until proven guilty...they are banking on that....just like Lance and his team did.....for pretty good awhile.

Btw, any of you see Lance (I mean Valverde) put a check on Contador (I mean Quintanna) after he (Quintanna) put a few attacks in on Froome on the last climb today. Quintanna just said, "oh, sorry boss...won't happen again."


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## Eretz (Jul 21, 2012)

Lance said:


> "...once Sky hits speeds in excess of 88mph on the flats, it's sure to draw some attention from the Committee....


What he said^^^^


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

twas ever thus


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

Eretz said:


> What he said^^^^


Since it's in France, it should be in excess of 88*km*h...with a nod to BTTF still!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

I enjoyed the superbowl too. Yeah those guys are clean


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

RTSO2112 said:


> Btw, any of you see Lance (I mean Valverde) put a check on Contador (I mean Quintanna) after he (Quintanna) put a few attacks in on Froome on the last climb today. Quintanna just said, "oh, sorry boss...won't happen again."


what?


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Ride well - doping
Ride badly - doping
There's some classy logic around here

For what it's worth, I think Sky (and i suspect the majority of the peloton) are doping - particularly after Porte has followed in the footsteps of Froome with his sudden transformation. One question I was hoping someone more enlightened in the Dark Arts could help me with: 

Presuming they're having to microdose now to avoid the blood passport (and given that Sky had that meeting around blood values with the UCI this seems likely to be the current approach), how are we still seeing extraordinary power numbers in line with the EPO era? Or are they likely to be using something else...


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

roddjbrown said:


> Ride well - doping
> Ride badly - doping
> There's some classy logic around here


Tour De France 2005: Stage 8 Results | Cyclingnews.com

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that logic.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

The Tedinator said:


> Tour De France 2005: Stage 8 Results | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with that logic.


Except the implication was that Porte was deliberately riding badly (hence that wink or twitchy eye) as evidence of doping. I'm pretty sure Sky were looking for a 1-2 again, not deliberately letting Froome get isolated as part of an elaborate coverup


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

roddjbrown said:


> Except the implication was that Porte was deliberately riding badly (hence that wink or twitchy eye) as evidence of doping. I'm pretty sure Sky were looking for a 1-2 again, not deliberately letting Froome get isolated as part of an elaborate coverup


Oh, I agree with you there. That is even tinfoil hat area that I wouldn't go to. But his awful ride by itself doesn't prove he is clean.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

The Tedinator said:


> Oh, I agree with you there. That is even tinfoil hat area that I wouldn't go to. But his awful ride by itself doesn't prove he is clean.


Indeed it does not, whilst on the flipside his conversion to TT/climbing/team leader/lieutenant specialism is pointing rather obviously in the other direction. 

Hats off to them, I never know who'll be next. Maybe Thomas will take time off to recover from his injury, unfortunately contract a rare Cambodian blood disease called Epothazar and come back next year as the strongest rider in the world.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

The Tedinator said:


> Oh, I agree with you there. That is even tinfoil hat area that I wouldn't go to. But his awful ride by itself doesn't prove he is clean.


True. Anyone who has read the laundry list of doping novels will know that guys who dope have terrible days in the saddle for numerous reasons....often times, the wrong doping regimen/mistakes can have ill affects on said rider.


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## Eretz (Jul 21, 2012)

rydbyk said:


> True. Anyone who has read the laundry list of doping novels will know that guys who dope have terrible days in the saddle for numerous reasons....often times, the wrong doping regimen/mistakes can have ill affects on said rider.


Sometimes a bad day means death too.



Blood Transfusions Early Days said:


> Not all the riders underwent the procedure. One who refused was Connie Carpenter – the mother of Taylor Phinney – who opened the Games with gold in the women's road race. As far as she was concerned, it was the coaching staff who were responsible for allowing transfusions to become part of the squad's preparation: "It's real bad for cycling, and it's real bad for all of us who didn't participate: The blame falls directly on the coaching staff, and from everything I've heard since, *I'm surprised nobody died," she told Sports Illustrated*.
> 
> *later in the article*: "And what is also clear is that as early as 1988 bodies were beginning to pile up on mortuary slabs as athletes in several sports began to experiment with EPO and die in their sleep. Gen-EPO was taking its first, faltering steps."
> 
> A History On Blood Transfusions In Cycling, Part 2 | Cyclingnews.com


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## tdi-rick (Oct 2, 2007)

roddjbrown said:


> For what it's worth, I think Sky (and i suspect the majority of the peloton) are doping - particularly after Porte has followed in the footsteps of Froome with his sudden transformation.


Except Richie hasn't just dropped from the clouds and performed, he's been talked of as a potential GC contender since he came over from Tri's.
Check his history, he's performed well in longer stage races and can TT well. 


I just can't believe they're all totally dirty.

Ok, Ok, I'm an idealist, but to say he deliberately tanked and left Froome unprotected...


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

tdi-rick said:


> Except Richie hasn't just dropped from the clouds and performed, he's been talked of as a potential GC contender since he came over from Tri's.
> Check his history, he's performed well in longer stage races and can TT well.
> 
> 
> ...


How is that not plausible? If it's plausible it's probable. E=MC2 stuff!

Now, how would ya'all think if Porte and Froome took 1-2 again two mountain stages in a row...even MORE suspicious is what I think. I believe they are doping and the strategy was the lesser of two evils approach where Porte "tanks" somewhat and Froome is left all alone. Guys like you think that doesn't seem plausible...that's exactly what they WANT you to think! 

Remember: the greatest lie the Devil (Sky) ever told was to make you think he doesn't exist (dope)! 

***Lance used an eerily 'similar' strategy. "I've had cancer and almost died...I run cancer charities....I'm above reproach........."
Reminds me of that Journey song...Don't Stop Believing....


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

tdi-rick said:


> Except Richie hasn't just dropped from the clouds and performed, he's been talked of as a potential GC contender since he came over from Tri's.
> Check his history, he's performed well in longer stage races and can TT well.
> 
> 
> ...


1) Agreed about not dropping from the sky but he has taken huge leaps forward this year

2) I never suggested they deliberately tanked. Anyone thinking Sky left Froome unprotected to remove suspicion is a lunatic


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

let me get my tin foil hat on..

commence..


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

Marc said:


> And then someone (not named for spoiler) today dumps Old Steak Face by almost a minute on a mountain today.


I think this shows that the race is cleaner, though certainly not clean. Contador suddenly went from the best stage racer in the world to someone that is still good but can no longer time trial with the best and can't quite pop on the climbs. He may or may not still be doping, but to me it is pretty clear he must be cleaner than before he was suspended. Now he seems like a guy that could win a tour, but is no longer the favorite. He isn't old enough to be past his prime though he is close to the tail end, but certainly there are plenty of reasons besides dope that a rider can suddenly get worse. I just think in this case that he got busted and has to be more careful or even stop doping if he wants to keep his pro career.

Froome definitely seems too good to be true, particularly with the similar performance of Wiggins and both being teammates. Both among the top in the world at time trials and climbing. Froome is a better climber, Wiggins better time trial, but both good enough to compare to a doping Contador and a doping Armstrong.

I think it's so hard to figure out because most of the best riders doped, but the ones that could win with both ITT and climbing might just be some of the best dopers. Contador, Armstrong, Anquetil, Merckx, all great at both disciplines and all dopers (of course the last two were using less effective dope, no doubt). On the other hand, the best specialists like the climbers Pantani and Rasmussen were dopers too, so maybe it doesn't really indicate anything when a rider is among the best at both disciplines.


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