# And the Dogma entertainment continues....



## enzo269

http://cgi.ebay.com/54CM-Pinarello-Dogma-Frame-fork-/270786736292?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item3f0c25b0a4


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## bikerjulio

hey, if they can do this...........

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1028808--customers-furious-staff-defiant-at-china-s-fake-apple-store?bn=1


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## RC28

enzo269 said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/54CM-Pinarello-Dogma-Frame-fork-/270786736292?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item3f0c25b0a4


Hmmm, something's not right. All items for that seller are for drill bits and related items except for this one.

Hacked account?


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## RC28

bikerjulio said:


> hey, if they can do this...........
> 
> http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1028808--customers-furious-staff-defiant-at-china-s-fake-apple-store?bn=1


YES!!! We were talking about that at work today. They're copying entire Apple stores!!! What's next?


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## bikerjulio

i reported it. let's see what happens.

"We'll review your report carefully and take appropriate action. You don't need to contact us about your report again.

Your report is just one factor we review. To determine the action we take, we'll consider the type of violation you're reporting and how it may impact other eBay members. If the listing doesn't follow our guidelines, it may be removed. However, in some cases, the listing may stay on eBay, and we may contact the member to provide training. We also may place limits on the member's ability to buy or sell on eBay. To protect the privacy of all of our members, we're unable to share the action we take."


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## Erion929

So for the Pina-uninformed, what is up with that frame....what is the giveaway? 


**


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## Cinelli 82220

RC28 said:


> Hmmm, something's not right. All items for that seller are for drill bits and related items except for this one.
> 
> Hacked account?


Looks like it.

I don't care if people sell knockoffs, as long as the sellers acknowledges them as such. Wavy stays have been around since the 1930s. 
It bothers me when sellers call their frames Dogma or Prince, and use the term OEM to skirt the rules on counterfeiting. I report them if the ad is misleading.


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## RC28

Erion929 said:


> So for the Pina-uninformed, what is up with that frame....what is the giveaway?
> 
> 
> **


The easiest one is the round seat tube vs Oval for the real thing. If the picture were to show the driveside of the frame, the Pinarello logo font is a tiny bit different and also there is no braze on for the FD (which the real one has)


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## spas

I wonder what the 2 year replacement warranty provides you :idea:


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## terrain

spas said:


> I wonder what the 2 year replacement warranty provides you :idea:


Dogma 2 but only in Giro Pink.


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## enzo269

It's been pulled..


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## pinarello_fan

There's loads still on ebay - see here


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## RC28

pinarello_fan said:


> There's loads still on ebay - see here


And that's only one seller. THere's a couple more on Ebay...


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## enzo269

As long as they put "replica" on the auction titling, I dont have a proble with it. It is when they try to sell the frame as authentic or OEM is what I have a problem with.. That is what is misleading..


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## masi85

Looks like cyclingyong is openly selling their fakes now on ebay even though they don't say Pinarello in the subject line: http://cgi.ebay.com/OEM-Full-Carbon...30593384172?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item4cf8e6b6ec


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## enzo269

What a joke.. Look at the Campy Bora Ultra Two wheels that he put on the bike in the auction.. So fake it is a joke.. 

If I were Pinarello, Colnago, Campy etc, I would legally have this guy shut down, but who knows what the laws are in China and if they have any legal rights.


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## AnthonyL88

This seller put OEM on all the Pinarello frames he's selling on ebay.

http://stores.ebay.com/TailWind-Bikes?_trksid=p4340.l2563


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## bikerjulio

It's OEM but not a Pinarello

Pinarello Dogma frameset (OEM) Size 56 | eBay


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## merckxman

Seller no longer exists.

QUOTE=AnthonyL88;3478173]This seller put OEM on all the Pinarello frames he's selling on ebay.

http://stores.ebay.com/TailWind-Bikes?_trksid=p4340.l2563[/QUOTE]


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## enzo269

Ebay has pulled quite a few of these "OEM" fake Pinarello auctions..


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## merckxman

I presume this is a fake but would like to know if that assumption is correct based upon the photographs:
280723021021


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## pinarello_fan

merckxman said:


> I presume this is a fake but would like to know if that assumption is correct based upon the photographs:
> 280723021021


Looks like it to me


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## RC28

Yes. It is not a real Dogma.


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## merckxman

Thanks Pinarello Fan and RC28.


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## enzo269

Very, very fake!!


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## AnthonyL88

merckxman said:


> Seller no longer exists.
> 
> QUOTE=AnthonyL88;3478173]This seller put OEM on all the Pinarello frames he's selling on ebay.
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com/TailWind-Bikes?_trksid=p4340.l2563


[/QUOTE]

The seller is gone because I reported all the fake frames to ebay twice. I will continue to reported every single person selling fake Pinarello frames to ebay.


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## merckxman

As I also do...

The seller is gone because I reported all the fake frames to ebay twice. I will continue to reported every single person selling fake Pinarello frames to ebay.[/QUOTE]


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## RC28

Wow, you guys must have a lot of free time on your hands if you're spending it reporting fake Pinarellos.

I mean, whatever floats your boat, I guess but wow...


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## AnthonyL88

It doesn't take a lot of time reporting the fake Pinarello frames to ebay. It will only take a couple of minutes.


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## T-Dog

Dont report them because I'd buy one as a training bike.


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## RC28

AnthonyL88 said:


> It doesn't take a lot of time reporting the fake Pinarello frames to ebay. * It will only take a couple of minutes*.



...plus whatever time you spend actively searching for them on Ebay. Again, whatever floats your boat. Me? I have a lot of other stuff I'd rather spend my time on.


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## enzo269

Shame that someone is going to spend big bucks on it thinking they are getting a genuine Pinarello.. If you guys reported it, EBAY has done nothing.. It is still on there with bids..


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## enzo269

merckxman said:


> I presume this is a fake but would like to know if that assumption is correct based upon the photographs:
> 280723021021



Pulled!


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## AnthonyL88

enzo269 said:


> Shame that someone is going to spend big bucks on it thinking they are getting a genuine Pinarello.. If you guys reported it, EBAY has done nothing.. It is still on there with bids..


Not true, because the ones I reported to Ebay are no longer available. If there are fake Pinarello frames you see on ebay, just send me the link and I will send it to ebay.


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## enzo269

AnthonyL88 said:


> Not true, because the ones I reported to Ebay are no longer available. If there are fake Pinarello frames you see on ebay, just send me the link and I will send it to ebay.


They just pulled the last one (about an hour ago) a Cycling Yong frame that was bidding up to 1600.. It sat on there for two days though with bids..


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## southparkcycles

When in Treviso in July, counterfeit frames and ebay were surprisingly part of the discussion. Fausto specifically mentioned how serious they were taking the fakes and ebay issues. I am sure he would be thankful to know there are others out there helping protect the brand

Cheers!


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## AnthonyL88

It's not just about fake Pinarello frames, but other fake frames like Colnago etc. I also reported the fake Colango frames I saw to ebay. My riding partner is a big Colnago fan and own a couple of Colnago frames and he wanted the fake Colnago frames off ebay too.


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## merckxman

Here is another one: 320743021170
Suspect same as cycling.yong (look at store name).
Also note that it's not only Pinarello, but also Colnago Cervelo, and coming soon Specialized!

This is yet another one 150639342779


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## AnthonyL88

merckxman said:


> Here is another one: 320743021170
> Suspect same as cycling.yong (look at store name).
> Also note that it's not only Pinarello, but also Colnago Cervelo, and coming soon Specialized!
> 
> This is yet another one 150639342779


I already reported it to ebay including 2 other Pinarello frames. 

(160571821134, 150590257574)


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## Cinelli 82220

I report them too, one of the sellers is now selling counterfeit Bontrager XXX carbon stems.

I wonder if Trek is aware of that?


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## cda 455

Does it have to say the counterfeited brand to be counterfeited, or just look like one?

I found one that looks like a Dogma but is sanitized of any name or label.


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## mrbubbles

So much LOL in this thread.



Cinelli 82220 said:


> I report them too, one of the sellers is now selling counterfeit Bontrager XXX carbon stems.
> 
> I wonder if Trek is aware of that?


I have one of those Bontrager XXX Lite seatpost, they're identical to the real ones, similar weights too. Very inexpensive. 

Anyhoo, Pinarello man in Treviso must love you guys for putting your free unpaid time into helping him get rich and uphold his brand.



cda 455 said:


> Does it have to say the counterfeited brand to be counterfeited, or just look like one?
> 
> I found one that looks like a Dogma but is sanitized of any name or label.


Those are not Dogmas. They're carbotec based designs (which Pinarello brought one to be labelled as Dogmas). Quite ubiquitous over ebay for like $400 something, a few of them came with Italian BB threads too.


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## spookyload

So the folks in Italy are getting butt hurt because China is making knockoffs? What the heck did you expect when you outsource your work to them? They make knockoffs when you don't send them the plans, so you send them the plans and expect them to only make them for you? Welcome to the world of international corporate espionage. For the fanboys here, why not just enjoy your bike and ride it. You know what you bought, and know it is legit. Why play world police for a brand? Is it hurting you to know someone is buying a fake that bad? If I go to the local decal shop and have them make pinarello decals for my mtb bike are you going to call eBay and report me?


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## zacolnago

spookyload said:


> So the folks in Italy are getting butt hurt because China is making knockoffs? What the heck did you expect when you outsource your work to them? They make knockoffs when you don't send them the plans, so you send them the plans and expect them to only make them for you? Welcome to the world of international corporate espionage. For the fanboys here, why not just enjoy your bike and ride it. You know what you bought, and know it is legit. Why play world police for a brand? Is it hurting you to know someone is buying a fake that bad? If I go to the local decal shop and have them make pinarello decals for my mtb bike are you going to call eBay and report me?


I think the issue is more about the poor guy that doesn't know that he's buying a fake. Not everyone is as savvy as the people on this forum, so some poor fool is going to get caught out when he could have bought the same frame without branding for $400.


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## T-Dog

Are you guys serious? Why dont you go and report all the fake Gucci handbags, Eames Chairs and Ralph Loren Polo shirts too.

I have a collegue at wpork who has bought a fake frame. He knows it was fake but was happy to pay the $500 for it. He loves it and the finish is beautiful for the non trained Pinarello enthusiast like ourselves its looks perfect.

Why be b#tches and keep running off and reporting them? Some have stated they are replica frames which they can do.

Check my history, I've had Princes, F4:13 and a Dogma. I am as Pinarello as the next guy but I dont have a problem with the replica frames.

Expecially when I know how much they actually cost to manufacture. You would be horrified.


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## merckxman

330602519432


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## enzo269

Cycling Yong is unreal.. He is cloning all the high end brands. The thing with him is that he makes it known in his auction that these are replicas. Still highly illegal, but EBAY allows him to get away with copyright infringement. The thing that pisses me off is others trying to sell his replicas as the real deal and ripping off ebay members.. Those are the ones that I report..


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## merckxman

Re: "Expecially when I know how much they actually cost to manufacture. You would be horrified". How much would that be?



T-Dog said:


> Are you guys serious? Why dont you go and report all the fake Gucci handbags, Eames Chairs and Ralph Loren Polo shirts too.
> 
> I have a collegueExpecially when I know how much they actually cost to manufacture. You would be horrified. at wpork who has bought a fake frame. He knows it was fake but was happy to pay the $500 for it. He Expecially when I know how much they actually cost to manufacture. You would be horrified.it and the finish is beautiful for the non trained Pinarello enthusiast like ourselves its looks perfect.
> 
> Why be b#tches and keep running off and reporting them? Some have stated they are replica frames which they can do.
> 
> Check my history, I've had Princes, F4:13 and a Dogma. I am as Pinarello as the next guy but I dont have a problem with the replica frames.
> 
> Expecially when I know how much they actually cost to manufacture. You would be horrified.


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## Cinelli 82220

T-Dog said:


> Expecially when I know how much they actually cost to manufacture. You would be horrified.


Please post an invoice from the manufacturer to Pinarello so we can all see.


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## AnthonyL88

Here's the rule on ebay.

If an item has a company's name or logo on it, but it wasn't made or endorsed by the company, it's not allowed on eBay.


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## RC28

So people cringe at "replicas" like these too?

Factory Five Racing


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## PsychoMike

Report the fools who sell the stickers/decals too. Its mainly the International sellers that sell the decal kits.
A few sellers on eBay.co.uk have fake decals for almost every manufacturer. Report report report


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## merckxman

Seller carbonxsports sells counterfeits with Pinarello images and says, "Pictures are all original. The bike will come exactly as shown in the pictures." Items 150639342779, 150590257574, 150648632981,


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## merckxman

Seller carbonxsports sells counterfeits with Pinarello images and says, "Pictures are all original. The bike will come exactly as shown in the pictures." Items 150639342779, 150590257574, 150648632981

seller gobike88 is another one, item 330602812906

Ebay rule is: "If an item has a company's name or logo on it, but it wasn't made or endorsed by the company, it's not allowed on eBay."


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## enzo269

merckxman said:


> Seller carbonxsports sells counterfeits with Pinarello images and says, "Pictures are all original. The bike will come exactly as shown in the pictures." Items 150639342779, 150590257574, 150648632981
> 
> seller gobike88 is another one, item 330602812906
> 
> Ebay rule is: "If an item has a company's name or logo on it, but it wasn't made or endorsed by the company, it's not allowed on eBay."



330602812906 Has been pulled. I am sure the others have been reported..


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## enzo269

RC28 said:


> So people cringe at "replicas" like these too?
> 
> Factory Five Racing



If I owned a real Shelby Cobra.. Yes.. I would cringe..


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## AnthonyL88

I reported all those frames being sold by CarbonXSports.


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## RC28

enzo269 said:


> If I owned a real Shelby Cobra.. Yes.. I would cringe..


My point is that I don't see people calling the car magazines and asking them to pull the ads for these replicas.

And, really, the fact that people have taken up wasting time reporting each and every one of these frames to Ebay to me is just hilarious.Way too much time on their hands. But, like I said, whatever floats your boat...


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## merckxman

More entertainment: 280726676690 (seller "bicyclecarbon")


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## AnthonyL88

160626231379, 160618239294, 160618238731, 160618239113, 250861283269, 300581210789, 250861283200, 250874344657, 300588431062, 250874110487, 370532859784


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## notepad

AnthonyL88 said:


> 160626231379, 160618239294, 160618238731, 160618239113, 250861283269, 300581210789, 250861283200, 250874344657, 300588431062, 250874110487, 370532859784


I'm pretty sure nude carbon frames doesn't constitute "counterfeit". Don't you think you're taking this a little too diligently? I hope you're being paid by Pinarello.


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## merckxman

cycling.yong is back with 330605026807


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## malanb

too much time to spend... I guess grumpy old dudes... let people buy whatever they wish


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## AnthonyL88

There are a boat load of fake Pinarello frames on ebay. The seller are using FULL CARBON on their title search and they don't even use PInarello anymore. Here are just a fraction of fake Pinarello frames being sold on ebay.

180714379937, 180712621669, 300589761049, 170649846899, 260836674017, 200640829660, 190566590386, 200640773629, 190568932206, 250863108758, 300587531122, 200637973659, 180712613246, 190566953406, 260837193455, 170681207572, 190569313984, 190561731765, 180712210961, 200635175834, 260834018504, 260834028118, 300587520407, 200642423039, 170685872044, 250875894751, 250878690761, 260839990979, 170672510798, 200640829667, 190562716051, 200642422720, 250878690821, 200642422660, 190563675098, 200642422516, 250875894851, 200640126329, 200642423188, 190566951423, 190568588543, 170683781987, 260837193777, 200643176242, 200640126314, 200637281907, 180714323727, 200642422206, 200640421589, 250877001135, 200637640392, 180714824582, 250878690420, 190559193879, 200640421606, 250875893420, 250878690862, 190568588480, 170683715508, 250875893672, 180712210890, 190558797366, 250875894446, 180712120079, 190558838197, 190567263809, 200642422328, 260839991747, 250875894163, 

All reported to ebay.


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## notepad

merckxman said:


> cycling.yong is back with 330605026807


Wow, he does move those fast, last night there was 10 and today there's 2 left.



AnthonyL88 said:


> There are a boat load of fake Pinarello frames on ebay. The seller are using FULL CARBON on their title search and they don't even use PInarello anymore. Here are just a fraction of fake Pinarello frames being sold on ebay.
> 
> 180714379937, 180712621669, 300589761049, 170649846899, 260836674017, 200640829660, 190566590386, 200640773629, 190568932206, 250863108758, 300587531122, 200637973659, 180712613246, 190566953406, 260837193455, 170681207572, 190569313984, 190561731765, 180712210961, 200635175834, 260834018504, 260834028118, 300587520407, 200642423039, 170685872044, 250875894751, 250878690761, 260839990979, 170672510798, 200640829667, 190562716051, 200642422720, 250878690821, 200642422660, 190563675098, 200642422516, 250875894851, 200640126329, 200642423188, 190566951423, 190568588543, 170683781987, 260837193777, 200643176242, 200640126314, 200637281907, 180714323727, 200642422206, 200640421589, 250877001135, 200637640392, 180714824582, 250878690420, 190559193879, 200640421606, 250875893420, 250878690862, 190568588480, 170683715508, 250875893672, 180712210890, 190558797366, 250875894446, 180712120079, 190558838197, 190567263809, 200642422328, 260839991747, 250875894163,
> 
> All reported to ebay.


Again, they're just nude carbon, don't see how they are fake, carbon dealers have been selling those nude unbranded frames for over a year now.

Btw, what do you think of this? (from the Chinese carbon megathread in bike & frames)










Looks good, non?


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## AnthonyL88

The Pinarello Dogma Bob is basically a nude frame with a clear coat.

So, it really doesn't matter if those fake frames aren't painted or got Pinarello on the frame. Pinarello got a unique frame design unlike any other bike company.


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## notepad

AnthonyL88 said:


> The Pinarello Dogma Bob is basically a nude frame with a clear coat.
> 
> So, it really doesn't matter if those fake frames aren't painted or got Pinarello on the frame. Pinarello got a unique frame design unlike any other bike company.


It does matter. It doesn't say Pinarello and those carbon frames aren't Pinarello, different chainstay, different headtube, different seattube, it is designed by somebody familiar with the companies who designed Pinarellos in Taiwan. 

No patent infringement, hence they've been on ebay for over a year now without problem.


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## AnthonyL88

Are you saying there are no patent infringement at all? Are you kidding me? All those criminals are illegally trying to exploit Pinarello by making all those fake frames. Do you think you'll win, if this was a real case inside a courtroom? I don't think so!!!


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## Coolhand

*Moderator's Note*

Enough with the disparagement of other posters. Infractions and Posting vacations will be issued if needed. Stick to the point please.


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## Cinelli 82220

AnthonyL88 said:


> Are you saying there are no patent infringement at all?!


Anthony, do a Google search for "Hetchins curly frames".
Wavy stays and forks, in many, many variations have been around for a long time. At least since the 1930s. They are not a new idea. Hetchins was not the only builder to use them.
And no, I'm not trolling, I have a Dogma.


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## AnthonyL88

I was looking at some of the Hetchins frames, but the frames and forks look more like curves than wavy. By the way, never thought u were a troll with all the comments u posted.


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## zacolnago

AnthonyL88 said:


> The Pinarello Dogma Bob is basically a nude frame with a clear coat.
> 
> So, it really doesn't matter if those fake frames aren't painted or got Pinarello on the frame. Pinarello got a unique frame design unlike any other bike company.


I haven't been a fan of the wavy Pinarello's, but have to admit that the Dogma 2 BoB is stunning.


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## T-Dog

These paint finishes look better than the real thing.

GreatKeen Bike Sport Equipment Co.,Ltd


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## AnthonyL88

T-Dog said:


> These paint finishes look better than the real thing.
> 
> GreatKeen Bike Sport Equipment Co.,Ltd


I don't think the paint finishes is better than the real thing.


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## RC28

AnthonyL88 said:


> I don't think the paint finishes is better than the real thing.


They're not better than the original Pinarello framesets. I've had both a real one and a "replica" one right next to the other and the Pinarello paint is better...but for that kind of money, it better be!

Having said that...they're VERY good, especially for what Greatkeen charges for the paint jobs. Somewhere around $30-$40 on top of the price of the naked frame.For that kind of money , they're excellent paint jobs...heck, I've seen some local pro painters that would charge several hundred for that and they wouldn't look as nice.


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## enzo269

The paint on these look ok... but they do not look nearly as good as the original.. 
It's actually laughable..


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## T-Dog

enzo269 said:


> The paint on these look ok... but they do not look nearly as good as the original..
> It's actually laughable..


Whats laughable is you actually believe that the original is worth at least $6000 more. Your dreaming.


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## enzo269

T-Dog said:


> Whats laughable is you actually believe that the original is worth at least $6000 more. Your dreaming.


That's a real intelligent response...


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## vladvm

RFM101 naked frames are open mould, anyone can buy it, repaint and put any decals they want on it. nothing illegal. these open mould frames have been on ebay since 2008, the sellers often have 1000+ stars with 99%+ good rating. 

If they sell those in Pinarello color scheme and sell them as pinarello, then that is counterfeit, but if they sell them blank and the buyer asks them to paint them in pinarello scheme before they ship, then that is legal IMO.


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## AnthonyL88

vladvm said:


> RFM101 naked frames are open mould, anyone can buy it, repaint and put any decals they want on it. nothing illegal. these open mould frames have been on ebay since 2008, the sellers often have 1000+ stars with 99%+ good rating.
> 
> If they sell those in Pinarello color scheme and sell them as pinarello, then that is counterfeit, but if they sell them blank and the buyer asks them to paint them in pinarello scheme before they ship, then that is legal IMO.


Pinarello Dogma and Dogma 2 got a color call BOB, it's just a clear coat over the frame. Just because those fake Pinarello frames doesn't have any paint on the frame, doesn't mean those frames on ebay aren't illegal.

Those fake frames on ebay design their frames to look like a Pinarello. That's illegal!!


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## malanb

Can you read??? Open mold! It is not ilegal.the Only people getting mad about this are ones with really expensive frames... (I like real pinarellos too) but I'm not getting a cancer over some one buyin a frame! They are no selling the frames as pinarello. Some people just got too much time just doing nothing. Go ride your bikes and let go...it is legal.


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## mrbubbles

AnthonyL88 said:


> That's illegal!!


Incorrect. Those nude frames have been selling on ebay for quite some time now.


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## enzo269

malanb said:


> Can you read??? Open mold! It is not ilegal.the Only people getting mad about this are ones with really expensive frames... (I like real pinarellos too) but I'm not getting a cancer over some one buyin a frame! They are no selling the frames as pinarello. Some people just got too much time just doing nothing. Go ride your bikes and let go...it is legal.


The nude frames are legal.. Yes... 
The frames that are painted with Pinarello and Dogma 60.1 by people like cycling yong and others are highly illegal..


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