# Quads vs. Hamstring = Position on Bike?



## OldZaskar

Through the first half of last season, my calves would be the first thing to go (cramp) - no matter what I did diet-wise, they'd crack first... and I was effectively done. A friend and fellow racer, suggested moving my cleats back - POW! Problem solved. To this day, it's the No.1 single improvement I've made in my equipment...

So now, as I consider my quads vs. my hams - and the fact that my quads ALWAYS fail (cramp) well before my hams, I'm wondering if an equitable magic bullet exists. 

I was fitted on the bike by a very reputable fitter. I'm comfortable - even on long rides. I ride an Addict SL - 61 cm... I'm about 6'1" - yep, those numbers don't add up huh. I'm all leg. My inseam is over 36". I apparently have really long femurs relative to my height. No clue if this impacts my fit - other than the obvious.

I've read/heard for years that the farther forward you sit, the more load you put on the quads and then sliding back, loads the hams more. 

Given that my quads go well before my hams, would it be worth scooting the seat back a bit? Or, is this going to through off the entire fit - as the stem would now need to be shorter, etc.???

Thanks!


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## StrongPerf

Sorry not to contribute anything to your thread. I'm posting because I have the same problem and am curious if someone comes up with an answer... 

Bump

Thanks


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## crashtestdummy

I'm not an expert, but I believe what you mentioned about moving the saddle is generally correct. I'd give it a shot, just move it a little at a time; after marking your current position.


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## geefactor

I think moving it back or up should invoke more hamstring/glutes and less quad. Take measurements, and make small changes and experiment.


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## heathb

You'll still use your quads regardless of moving the saddle back or up. 

The only key to getting past the cramp cycle is to train until your legs cramp and then keep riding in pain. 

You do that and you'll build up to the point that cramps won't hit come race time when you have no choice but to keep riding.

I cramp up hellish bad and this is the only way I can keep myself out of trouble when racing.


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## Bike Poor

Not really an answer, but I find it hard to believe that an XXL/61 with a top tube of 596 is the right size for you, maybe if you had real short legs for your height, but not with long legs. I guess if your arms are also really long it might would work. Are you running a straight seat post and/or have the seat all of the way foward to make up for the long top tube?


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## tidi

i too am more leg than torso. i'm 178.5cm with an 88.7cm inseam. i used to cramp very bad in both hamstrings after a good climb or a solid long ride. i used 172.5 and 175mm cranks during this time. 175 felt better but still cramped. 
i now use 185mm cranks and have not cramped since. my quads do burn as i now push bigger gears but only cause i'm just trying to smash everyone else on climbs but i can easily spin no problems.


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## zion rasta

Check your blood for sodium...


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## tidi

is there a direct link to low sodium and cramps?


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## OldZaskar

The fitter told me that current thinking in the fitting world, is to NOT have the saddle as high as they used to recommend - just a few years ago. Not a huge difference - a few mms. I think this means I was fitted at the lower end of the height range... and could get away with bumping the saddle up a little without overextending, e.g. rocking, reaching, etc. 

Since this also moves the saddle back, I'll start here - moving the saddle up a few mms. I'll report back.


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## kbiker3111

In addition to moving the saddle forward/back to engage hams/quads, moving it up/down will change what engages. Move it down to engage more of your glutes, up a bit to engage your quads and up to high to get tendinitis in your calves and hammys.


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## OldZaskar

kbiker3111 said:


> In addition to moving the saddle forward/back to engage hams/quads, moving it up/down will change what engages. Move it down to engage more of your glutes, up a bit to engage your quads and up to high to get tendinitis in your calves and hammys.


Hmmm... well, that ^ doesn't jive with my experience today. I raised my saddle 50mm. Did 60 miles today (same ride as last week that resulted in a ride ending - or 50 watt drop in power - cramp in both quads) at a higher average power than last Saturday's ride - this is compared to last Saturday's ride using the miles before the quad cramping. I felt much better today - It really felt more balanced, e.g. quads vs. hams. 

Of course one ride can not be a gauge - diet, sleep, etc. too many variables to compare only two rides' data sets. But it's the feel (not the data) that makes me think it made a difference. 

So saddle higher engages MORE quads huh... I would've guessed it the other way. Oh well, if it's workin... ;-)


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## serious

You are getting cramps because you are not fit enough or the diet may be a little off. I used to get plenty of cramps when racing, but that eventually stopped. Now I don't even get them when doing 8 hour (solo) races. Fitness and nutrition is key.

Bike fit is important too, so do experiment, but with time and improving fitness, I think you will be fine.


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## Bike Poor

OldZaskar said:


> The fitter told me that current thinking in the fitting world, is to NOT have the saddle as high as they used to recommend - just a few years ago. Not a huge difference - a few mms. I think this means I was fitted at the lower end of the height range... and could get away with bumping the saddle up a little without overextending, e.g. rocking, reaching, etc.
> 
> Since this also moves the saddle back, I'll start here - moving the saddle up a few mms. I'll report back.


It sounds like you were fitted to the bike with inseam/seat tube measurement? Which means not fitted to torso/top tube? I don't think that its the cause of your cramps, but the fit still sounds strange.


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## OldZaskar

I did a full dynamic fit - on a trainer for about an hour. We swapped stems, moved the saddle up, back, forward, down... more stems... 

Because of my odd geometry, the initial thinking was a custom frame. The Madone and CR1 didn't feel right. The fitter suggested the Addict SL - something about the more aggressive geometry. It was counterintuitive - seemed like I'd be stretched out even more (the short torso thing) but it worked. When I got off the CR1 and on the Addict, it just clicked - it felt great. 

The fitter did say my flexibility, e.g. being comfortable in more of a "race position" played into the move to the Addict (or similar). When I hopped off the CR1 I said "It uhm... feels like a hybrid" He laughed and said "I think you're going to like the Addict".

Later, the same guy saw my mountain bike (my old, now converted to SS) and said, "Geez, no wonder you like the Addict"

I rode this bike for 14 years...


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## Bike Poor

OldZaskar said:


> I did a full dynamic fit - on a trainer for about an hour. We swapped stems, moved the saddle up, back, forward, down... more stems...
> 
> Because of my odd geometry, the initial thinking was a custom frame. The Madone and CR1 didn't feel right. The fitter suggested the Addict SL - something about the more aggressive geometry. It was counterintuitive - seemed like I'd be stretched out even more (the short torso thing) but it worked. When I got off the CR1 and on the Addict, it just clicked - it felt great.
> 
> The fitter did say my flexibility, e.g. being comfortable in more of a "race position" played into the move to the Addict (or similar). When I hopped off the CR1 I said "It uhm... feels like a hybrid" He laughed and said "I think you're going to like the Addict".
> 
> Later, the same guy saw my mountain bike (my old, now converted to SS) and said, "Geez, no wonder you like the Addict"


That sort of answers my concerns.


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## kbiker3111

OldZaskar said:


> Hmmm... well, that ^ doesn't jive with my experience today. I raised my saddle 50mm. Did 60 miles today (same ride as last week that resulted in a ride ending - or 50 watt drop in power - cramp in both quads) at a higher average power than last Saturday's ride - this is compared to last Saturday's ride using the miles before the quad cramping. I felt much better today - It really felt more balanced, e.g. quads vs. hams.
> 
> Of course one ride can not be a gauge - diet, sleep, etc. too many variables to compare only two rides' data sets. But it's the feel (not the data) that makes me think it made a difference.
> 
> So saddle higher engages MORE quads huh... I would've guessed it the other way. Oh well, if it's workin... ;-)


_50MM_!!! I'd say you could use a proper fitting.


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## DanTourino

Trolled a bit so forgive me if some have already answered these but here we go.....

1) Sodium does not directly relate to cramps, dehydration (a byproduct of a sodium surplus) does. This can be balanced by either increasing potassium intake or decreasing sodium intake.

2) Your ride shouldn't end because a muscle "Cramps" first, it should be an exhaustion factor. If you're cramping, be sure you're remaining hydrated. Used to carry two water bottles, now carry two liter camelback on longer rides; problem solved, no more cramping.

3) if You're actually referring to muscle fatigue, it would make sense that your quads fail first as they're the primary muscle in your leg while calves and quads are secondary. Assuming a perfectly round peddle stroke, you're still using about 70% quad and 30% hamstring. Just the nature of the beast.

I found out the aforementioned the hard way as I am a body-builder and use cycling to keep lean and maintain my endurance. Quads are a primary muscle and are engaged by even the slightest resistance being applied, hamstring merely stabilize your quadriceps when said load is applied. Yes, they're more directly engaged on the upstroke when peddling, but I highly doubt you'd see the same force applied as hams strings naturally cannot bear the same load as the quads.


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## Doggity

kbiker3111 said:


> In addition to moving the saddle forward/back to engage hams/quads, moving it up/down will change what engages. Move it down to engage more of your glutes, up a bit to engage your quads and up to high to get tendinitis in your calves and hammys.


_Thank_ you!! I've got tendonitis in my hammies, and just a bit in my calves. You've confirmed what I was suspecting. I'm gonna drop my saddle about 5mm, see if that helps (not that I can ride right now anyway...). I wasn't having any reaching or rocking with my stroke, but my PT says my right leg's 10mm shorter than my left, so there you have it...


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