# Bike Virginia Death and Destruction, a vent not a rant.



## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

Last week we participated in Bike Virginia. Probably the 4th or 5th time we have done the ride. I am not sure why we signed up this time, I guess because Miss M's sister wanted to do it. We didn't bother training since we were having too much fun paddling and just riding around town.

The route was mostly in West Virginia. An area we know well having done countless centuries, brevets and overnighters there. Not any real climbing but endless steep rollers. Lots of railroad crossings, small towns, twisty turny busted up roads and plenty of riding in and out of the shade of overhanging trees.

Scenic in the extreme.

Now picture 2,000 cyclists of all abilities on these country roads. The organizers were quite clear in asking everyone to ride single file and only double up when passing. They also reminded everyone to not cross over the yellow line, obey the traffic signs and get off the road when stopped. All this is the way we normally ride. 

I guess folks can't read or something.....


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## drmayer (Mar 24, 2009)

There are some people, that when doing large group rides, gain a sense of security by having the other riders around and don't follow the rules of the road, or they don't know any better in the first place.

We did a metric century a few weeks ago, and the route was shared with the people doing shorter distances. We were coming up on a group of four riders; 3 of them were on the right, and the 4th was in the middle of the oncoming lane, going up a hill! We overtook them, and I asked the rider politely to ride on the right. They apologized, almost as if this wasn't the first time they've been told this.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

We like to ride at a nice steady effort, picking up a bit on the uphills and mostly coasting the downhills. We are very cautious riding in West Virginia never knowing what exactly is going to be there around the next bend.

We saw a couple of accidents the first day; looked to be the usual overlapping of wheels or folks falling over on an overgeared uphill. Talking it over that night we decided that we wouldn't ride with anyone we didn't know and wouldn't let anyone ride on our wheels.

Still saw plenty of accidents and hurt cyclists at the rest stops (great rest stops BTW). It actually got so bad that Miss M started chewing out folks that got on her wheel or tryed to ride next to her (first time I had seen her do anything like that).

And alas, on the last day we saw a cyclist die.

A sizable group passed us on a downhill with a clearly marked railroad crossing on the bottom. Near as we could tell from 100 feet behind someone in the middle of the group got sideways and airborne then landed head first. 

The group stopped all over the road, as soon as we saw what the accident was we walked around the tracks and kept on going.

Clearly there was nothing we could do to help and we really wanted to get away from any other riders until we got off those roads. 

The quiet lasted for only about 15 minutes before riders started flying by us on the downhills again.

I don't think we will be doing any group rides with strangers any more......


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

I'm sorry MB1. I haven't done a tshirt ride in fifteen years, partly because of this issue.

Not to excuse the n00bs and squirrels, but FWIW, I had a girl do a header into a guardrail right behind me in a bike race in '02. She did not survive. She had been one of the most accomplished Masters' racers in the region, and was a multiple CO state champion. Accidents happen, even to good bike handlers.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

lonefrontranger said:


> I'm sorry MB1. I haven't done a tshirt ride in fifteen years, partly because of this issue.
> 
> Not to excuse the n00bs and squirrels, but FWIW, I had a girl do a header into a guardrail right behind me in a bike race in '02. She did not survive. She had been one of the most accomplished Masters' racers in the region, and was a multiple CO state champion. Accidents happen, even to good bike handlers.


Ya, but it was so pointless. It was just a bike ride in the country. No mass start, no medals, no points, no bragging rights.

And predictable.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

I haven't done one of those in years. A couple of diehard Lardbutts were there this year. I gave it a pass. It dawned on me a while back that Bike Virginia draws the same calibre of rider as the Sea Gull Century; i.e "mixed experience levels and abilities." 

I don't do the Sea Gull any more either.

At the last Bike Virginia that I rode, a friend of mine got some sort of hideous dysentery from some bad water that he got at a rest stop. He was actually hospitalized. 

Did you camp? The "Tent City" (aka "Fredstock") was always a lot of fun. We always found that the most important part of the camping experience was finding the proper location for the tent. We always tried to pick a spot that was near enough to the porta johns so that you didn't have to get out the hiking boots to go take a pee, but not so close that you were in the olafactory kill zone. The aroma that a block of chemical toilets is able to generate in 100 degree heat redefines "shock and awe."


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## sometimerider (Sep 21, 2007)

It's sad to be in any way involved when folks get hurt. And bike riding isn't supposed to be that way.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

That sucks. I still do occasional rallies but totally agree with everything MB1 said. Have seen some nasty crashes. 

My thought these days is more along the lines of, hey, those pretty country roads are there every weekend, let's get a few trusted friends and go for a ride there some other time.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

MB1 said:


> And alas, on the last day we saw a cyclist die.
> 
> I don't think we will be doing any group rides with strangers any more......


Oh wow.... Didn't see this when I posted below.


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## azpeterb (Jun 1, 2006)

Oh, that's awful. Sorry to hear about the death of the rider....must have been a horrible thing to see.

For the same reasons as you, I decided to quit my favorite mass event here in Tucson, El Tour de Tucson, a few years ago. It was getting way too crowded (9000 riders), they wouldn't close the roads/lanes to car traffic, and I saw the aftermath in the 2008 ride of the worst accident in the ride's history. A guy my same age, with young kids at home, suffered severe brain damage after an elderly driver got confused and turned in front of a pack of riders going at top speed. I decided then and there that the safety of the ride (or lack thereof) had reached the point where I wasn't going to be a part of it any more. It's just not worth it. Sure, riding solo doesn't prevent me from being victimized by drivers, but I still feel it's much safer than being a part of TDT's mass mayhem again.


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

It is for this reason I stay away from these type of rides/brevets/fondos etc. I will only do them when there is 10,000ft+ of elevation as it tends to only attract the more serious cyclists. Although this does not mean there are not any asshats along the ride. 

It is sad and stupid when people die for no reason


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

MB1 said:


> And alas, on the last day we saw a cyclist die.
> 
> A sizable group passed us on a downhill with a clearly marked railroad crossing on the bottom. Near as we could tell from 100 feet behind someone in the middle of the group got sideways and airborne then landed head first.


I came very close to crashing yesterday on railroad tracks that I have ridden over hundreds of time on my old commuting route. Friday's storm had deposited some sand near the tracks and when I slipped, my front tire caught for an instant in the tracks. If I had been riding with a group, I surely would have taken out a rider or two. 

As someone wrote above, people on group rides seems to think that there is safety in numbers. In actuality, the opposite often is the case. I came upon the aftermath of a cyclist who crashed on a bridge (and flipped over it into the stream below) on the Civil War Century 8 or 9 years ago. The guy lived, but had a broken back. Ever since then I have been wary of group rides, even though I still do some of them.

Assuming that Miss M will allow me to ride near her, we should do a ride some day. I am in horrible shape, but after I do RAGBRAI, I will have enough miles in my legs to give riding with all of you a try.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

psycleridr said:


> It is for this reason I stay away from these type of rides/brevets/fondos etc. I will only do them when there is 10,000ft+ of elevation as it tends to only attract the more serious cyclists. Although this does not mean there are not any asshats along the ride.


The downside is that such a ride brings out the descending tools, and the ones that believe everyone should be comfortable with the occasional shoulder bump. IME, the ones that treat the non-races as races do a lot of the law-breaking stupidity. In comparison, the noob stupidity seems more annoying than outright dangerous, sweeping generalizations notwithstanding.

I'm not completely convinced that it's a question of novice vs. experienced, more that it's the mixture that can be problematic.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

Sorry about the bad experience and the trajedy.

Our bike club does the Seagull every year. They are all real fast and paceline the whole ride yelling on your left and I don't know you get off my wheel. I have never gone because I don't see how dodging newbs at 25mph is any fun.

Assault on Mt. Mitchell was pretty crazy for the first 30 miles or so.


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## Antonio_B (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm sorry you had to witness that, MB and I can't blame you for swearing off this type of 'fun' ride. 

The Mrs and I signed up for the Tour de Cure a couple of weeks ago. I got so angry at some of the riders that, it stopped being enjoyable. 

Whether it was the experienced riders calling out what seemed like every hazard at the tops of their lungs or the newbs in the same group clearly out of their comfort zone on descents, I vowed not to allow myself or my wife near any more idiots like that. I hope I can keep good on my promise.


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## indysteel (Jul 21, 2006)

Girchy and I have complained bitterly about this kind of a thing every year at the Horsey Hundred in Kentucky. It's become less and less fun because of it. I've never had a huge desire to do any of the bigger weeklong tours like Bike Virginia or RAGBRAI for this reason. The only one I've done and enjoyed is the Bicycle Ride Across Tennessee. It's a much smaller group (200-300 riders) and they're all pretty experienced and respectful of traffic laws and common courtesy. 

In any event, I'm sad someone died, even if it was, potentially, because of their own recklessness.


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## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

Antonio_B said:


> Whether it was the experienced riders calling out what seemed like every hazard at the tops of their lungs or the newbs in the same group clearly out of their comfort zone on descents, I vowed not to allow myself or my wife near any more idiots like that. I hope I can keep good on my promise.


My favorites are the giant pacelines which pass, without warning, within inches of your elbow at speeds about 10 mph higher than what you're traveling.


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## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

indysteel said:


> Girchy and I have complained bitterly about this kind of a thing every year at the Horsey Hundred in Kentucky.


What did that idiot say to you? "Way to keep the bike steady"?


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

Gregory Taylor said:


> I haven't done one of those in years. A couple of diehard Lardbutts were there this year. ....
> 
> Did you camp? ...


I saw 2 Lardbutts in full kit at the race track rest stop. They qualified. 

The littlest Lardbutt doesn't camp out. We stayed in pretty nice hotels with hot and cold running room service......:blush2:


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

MB1 said:


> I saw 2 Lardbutts in full kit at the race track rest stop. They qualified.
> 
> The littlest Lardbutt doesn't camp out. We stayed in pretty nice hotels with hot and cold running room service......:blush2:


I don't blame her a bit. 

Well I hope that my buddies were behaving themselves. One of them is an inspiring story - he was diagnosed with a glioma in his head more than a year ago, had the tumor removed (it was pretty big - think tennis ball), and is on a treatment plan. He does Bike Virginia every year, and didn't want to miss it.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

MarkS said:


> ...Assuming that Miss M will allow me to ride near her, we should do a ride some day. I am in horrible shape, but after I do RAGBRAI, I will have enough miles in my legs to give riding with all of you a try.


If and when it cools off a bit I'm thinking a tour of Balmer would be just the thing. :thumbsup:


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Did the 5 Boro Bike Tour around NYC a couple times, but that's it. 40,000+ riders of all levels- luckily they close the streets down, but still......The organizers finally got around to capping the amount of riders that can enter. Nothing like bicycle traffic jams 

Meanwhile, just read that a rider died during an endurance ride in CA. He was descending and crashed into a tree. First timer (for that race, anyway.)


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

MB1 said:


> If and when it cools off a bit I'm thinking a tour of Balmer would be just the thing. :thumbsup:


Sounds good to me. I can put together a combo urban/country ride similar to the one that Ridgetop did a few years ago. http://forums.roadbikereview.com/co...altimore-adventure-courtesy-marks-178007.html


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## Antonio_B (Dec 9, 2005)

GirchyGirchy said:


> My favorites are the giant pacelines which pass, without warning, within inches of your elbow at speeds about 10 mph higher than what you're traveling.


Fortunately, those guys were on the track, racking up their century miles. Even then, they were courteous enough to give everyone ample space.


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## indysteel (Jul 21, 2006)

GirchyGirchy said:


> What did that idiot say to you? "Way to keep the bike steady"?


She said that I was brave to ride in the gutter. I was riding in the gutter only because the ginormous and obnoxious paceline she was in basically forced me to, which I what I yelled in reply. 

I like riding in a paceline, but there's a time and place fir them--and it's not at the start of a big event ride.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

MB1 said:


> I don't think we will be doing any group rides with strangers any more......


Yeah, I made this decision about ten years ago. That sucks that someone died.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Yeesh.

Sorry MB1.

No one sets out on these rides thinking "I might die today."

I mostly avoid big (greater than 500 riders) event- rides, for exactly the reasons you observed. If the course is closed then it's not as big an issue.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

azpeterb said:


> For the same reasons as you, I decided to quit my favorite mass event here in Tucson, El Tour de Tucson, a few years ago. It was getting way too crowded (9000 riders), they wouldn't close the roads/lanes to car traffic, and I saw the aftermath in the 2008 ride of the worst accident in the ride's history. A guy my same age, with young kids at home, suffered severe brain damage after an elderly driver got confused and turned in front of a pack of riders going at top speed. I decided then and there that the safety of the ride (or lack thereof) had reached the point where I wasn't going to be a part of it any more. It's just not worth it. Sure, riding solo doesn't prevent me from being victimized by drivers, but I still feel it's much safer than being a part of TDT's mass mayhem again.


I haven't done it in years either, for pretty much the same reasons. I hated seeing riders on the deck at the RR crossing on the last third. And I hated getting lectured by a group that I had to cross the yellow line to pass. Of course they were riding 6 abreast on that hill on Kolb.

Too many citizens mixed in with too many wannabe racer studs.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> ...No one sets out on these rides thinking "I might die today."...


Actually most of the activities we have taken up in our declining years seem to include the possibility of death.

Which is why we think carefully about how we do what we do and take all reasonable precautions which includes trying to avoid self stupidity at all times.

Nothing wrong with ending it doing what you love but no reason to rush things either.


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## 10ae1203 (Jan 14, 2007)

Sounds like a damned mess. And a shame.



MB1 said:


> ... we think carefully about how we do what we do and take all reasonable precautions which includes trying to avoid self stupidity at all times.
> 
> ...


This is much of the battle.


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

MB1 said:


> I don't think we will be doing any group rides with strangers any more......


That's one of the things that's always kept me away from the AIDS ride: thousands of inexperienced riders on PCH ... a highway that's dangerous enough to begin with. I've gotten mixed up with them before as they were finishing up the last leg, and seen the sketchiness first hand.

No. Thanks. 

Same concept kept me away from trying my hand at racing ... Back when I was relatively fast.


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

Also, sorry you had to see that.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i have been on very few organized rides. all the charity rides are like that. a few club rides are like that, too.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

Still, we enjoyed the riding on familiar roads and every afternoon we would go hit the river.

We were having a good time.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

I didn't realize a cyclist was killed at the RR crossing. We had heard that it was a motorist.

Most of the time, I don't find it hard staying away from the crowds of riders on Bike VA and similar events. The hardest part, however, is the hills -- where most everyone slows down, weaves back and forth, or moves toward the center line. I had to cross the yellow line a number of times to avoid other cyclists on the longer, steeper hills.


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## goodwij (Sep 15, 2008)

My buddy got caught up in the aftermath of that accident. They stopped the ride and re-routed him another way. We had something similar on the first day of CNC last year. The route took us down a long hill with some nasty turns. Part way down there was gravel in the road. Somebody went down hard just in front of us. That is no fun at all! He had people helping him so we continued. It was also not fun seeing the ambulance and emergency vehicles speeding by.


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