# Cadence for hill climbs?



## the_gormandizer

I am thinking about trying a coupled of hill climbs next year, particularly Mt Ascutney, which is a 3.8 mile climb, at about 15% grade. The really fast guys do it in about 26 minutes.

Recently, I did the climb in 34 minutes using a 39x28 setup. As you can see, though, my cadence was horrible, averaging under 60 rpm. It is really hard to get into a rhythm with my gearing. I'm thinking that a compact crank might be what I need to get my cadence up to around 80+ rpm. Before making the investment, I am just wondering whether there are any insights as to how much it would really help my times?


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## HeluvaSkier

I ride a compact crank and in a hill climb TT I did this year my average cadence was 89rpm (one short climb, one short downhill, and a longer climb). The climb had 15%+ grades so I actually used an 11-28 cassette. I didn't use the 28 much, but it was great to have just in case I needed an easier gear in order to maintain a high cadence (which I did use on the 15% sections of the climb). The strategy worked out alright because I placed third overall and first in my age group. 

...60 climbing cadence seems very low to me, and at that cadence in a race - answering attacks/accelerations and such would be very difficult. ...At least for someone with my low level of strength.


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## perttime

Is it your lungs or legs that are limiting you?

60 sounds low enough that it is time to get out of the saddle, if your lungs can take it. Half an hour climbing is long enough that getting out of the saddle might be good for varying the load on the muscles too.


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## Ventruck

Imo, weight factors in a bit. Lighter riders tend to run lower rpms, although you being in the 28 means you're short of a bail gear (unless you have an xx-32, etc setup).

A compact wouldn't help your times off the bat. I would say, though, that it could help in allowing you to continue improving your riding ability in general. Closer + smaller(lighter) gears = smaller increments in difficulty. You'll likely run the same pace, but probably be more rhythmic and less wiped.


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## the_gormandizer

perttime said:


> Is it your lungs or legs that are limiting you?


On this climb I had to stand on the steep parts, such as the switchbacks. Otherwise I sat in an effort to keep my heart rate down. I don't trust my average recorded heart rate since since there were some spurious highs, but I pretty much stayed at or over my AT the whole climb. The last half mile or so I got pretty anaerobic. My average power was 284W, which is higher than my ftp of 250W. I'm not sure whether I do more with a higher cadence. The race winner who is about my weight averaged about 320W. 

I guess it's a question of wanting to pedal the most efficiently for the climb. My bigger goal is to use the hill climb as a training event for the Mad River Road Race. This a 70 mile race that ends on App Gap, which is a 2 mile climb of similar grades to Ascutney. Of course, there is a big difference in doing App Gap after 68 miles of racing to doing a hill climb on fresh legs. But I definitely needed to spin more on App Gap than I could with my current setup (39/53 + 11/28).


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## PissedOffCil

I switched from a standard to a compact recently for the same reason as you, I wanted higher climbing cadence. I knew I wanted to rise cadence because I climb with higher RPM on the mtb. By switching to a compact, I gained about 15 RPM and a lot of comfort when climbing. I didn't gain any speed directly from the switch and don't expect it to work magic in that regards, it won't. I believe though that it's easier to improve climbing by having a decent cadence that you can push rather that powering a bigger gear.

If you agree with the above, don't hesitate, get a compact. After all, you can always shift 2-3 gears to get the same ratio as with a standard if you want to work pure force.


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## the_gormandizer

Ventruck said:


> Imo, weight factors in a bit. Lighter riders tend to run lower rpms, although you being in the 28 means you're short of a bail gear (unless you have an xx-32, etc setup).
> 
> A compact wouldn't help your times off the bat. I would say, though, that it could help in allowing you to continue improving your riding ability in general. Closer + smaller(lighter) gears = smaller increments in difficulty. You'll likely run the same pace, but probably be more rhythmic and less wiped.


I weigh 152lbs during the riding season. The 28 is the max I can go on my current SRAM Red setup, Generally, this is my bail gear! 

I have seen buddies switch to compacts, but they don't seem go any faster on the steep climbs. But your point about leg fatigue is well taken.


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## Gnarly 928

You should try a compact crank. See for yourself. I wouldn't expect any huge difference though. 

This year I just converted (again) to compact gearing. My hillclimb readouts looked similar to yours with my 39. I was getting dropped on climbs. Now I still get dropped on climbs often, but I think overall, I go uphill better...My legs feel better anyhow, but you still have to do the same work, of course.

It takes some time to get familiar and comfortable using a compact after being on a traditional crankset. You may think you aren't going any quicker uphill...and you probably aren't..at least not by much...But I have found that I have more "kick" in me to respond when someone jumps. (and they always do, don't they?) When climbing maxed-out by your legs...You can send down for "more power" but they just won't respond. When you are spinning at max and limited by your heart/lungs...you can go into the "seeing black spots before your eyes" mode and make a short totally over the top effort...which is sometimes enough stick on or bust everyone's chops on a climb.

Overall on an uphill TT..my times are close no matter what cadence...but on longer climbing days I find I have a bit more at the end, and I've been cramping less.

I am going to keep my compact. I live in a climbing area..every ride has a climb. I use a 33-25(12) for my daily training. Easy days a 23 would work fine and for group rides I use an 11 high gear to keep up on fast descents. 

You can always NOT use your real low gears...turn a big slow cadence gear again on a climb with just a flick of your fingers....if you want.. But after a few thousand miles, I bet you won't do that much.


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## tom_h

I've read that some of the skinny/lighter pro tour riders, like Saxo's Chris Sorensen, have developed a high RPM riding style to get their high power output (FTP high 300s watts)

Power = Torque (pedal force) x RPM.

If you don't have huge muscle strength, but do have a good cardio capability, then higher RPM climbing might suit you.

I think you do have to "re-train" yourself to some extent, so 1-2 rides might not be enough to answer the question, for your physiology. 

I'm finding my best climbing is at 80-85 RPM ... I use compact 50-34 crank and usually 11-25 cassette. It takes conscious effort to adapt to higher RPM, and it's still not 'auto pilot' for me.

Chris Carmichael, Lance's coach, is an advocate of higher RPM in his training books ... obviously worked well for his star athlete ;-)


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## asgelle

tom_h said:


> If you don't have huge muscle strength, but do have a good cardio capability, then higher RPM climbing might suit you.


Strength is pretty much irrelevant. The forces generated while climbing are so low (even on the steepest road climbs) that strength is never a limiter. Anyone who can walk up 3 or 4 steps (not flights) has adequate strength to climb at the pro level. It's all about aerobic power.


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## tom_h

asgelle said:


> Strength is pretty much irrelevant. The forces generated while climbing are so low (even on the steepest road climbs) that strength is never a limiter. Anyone who can walk up 3 or 4 steps (not flights) has adequate strength to climb at the pro level. It's all about aerobic power.


I agree it's _aerobic_ power , and by "muscular power" I should have been clearer -- I definitely don't mean weightlifter or competitive skier levels of strength.

Specific example from one of my recent hill climbs --

Peak 20min (236 watts):
Duration: 20:00
Distance: 4.242 mi
Elevation Gain: 856 ft
Grade: 3.9 % (865 ft)

............. Min Max Avg
Power: .......45 . 390 . 236 watts
Cadence: ...34 .162(?!). 86 rpm
Crank Torque: 24 574.. 235 lb-in 
Speed:... 3.7 16.2 12.7 mph


235 inch-lbs average torque on my 172.5mm crank arms => 34.6 lbs avg force on each pedal, on every "push down".

20 min @ 86 rpm avg cadence => 1720 revolutions. Each leg does 1720 "push downs".

I could have achieved same power with 30% more force (45 lbs) and 30% less cadence (60 RPM), but there's no way I could have sustained that force sitting down, for 1720 repetitions.
Yes, 45 lbs is modest, but I can't do it.
Out of saddle, of course, is different.


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## asgelle

tom_h said:


> I agree it's _aerobic_ power , and by "muscular power" I should have been clearer ...


So help me out because I've never understood this. What is the difference between good "muscular power" and good "cardio capability?" Specifically lets say there are two riders with the same functional threshold power, but one has better cardio capability and the other better muscular power. How will their physiological markers differ, e.g., VO2max, lactate threshold, AWC, and how will their performances be different. I ask because it seems to me that with the same functional threshold power, they should perform the same on a long aerobic effort.


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## tom_h

asgelle said:


> So help me out because I've never understood this. What is the difference between good "muscular power" and good "cardio capability?" Specifically lets say there are two riders with the same functional threshold power, but one has better cardio capability and the other better muscular power. How will their physiological markers differ, e.g., VO2max, lactate threshold, AWC, and how will their performances be different. I ask because it seems to me that with the same functional threshold power, they should perform the same on a long aerobic effort.


yes, that statement is definitely true, almost by definition. 

I am not an exercise physiologist, so I won't speculate on the other questions about physiological markers. There are some hard-core types at the Wattage forum who could answer that, but be aware that forum often seems tart and snippy to newcomers.

Among my riding friends, some appear to have higher cardiovascular capacity (vO2max) and others have higher torque in their legs. Allowing for power-weight ratio (single most important factor in hill climbing, I think), we can all get up a long hill competitvely with each other. 

My lower-cadence friend does suffer more in Crit racing -- he cannot "snap" out of a corner fast enough, and eventually gets spit out the back. But he excels at TT, and now focusses on that, a lot

I think a lower-torque/high-cadence style Vs the opposite, depends on the individual's physiology and genetics. It may take experimentation to figure out what works best. Doing intervals from Carmichael's "Time Crunched training plan" on a trainer, with a powermeter , helped me figure out that I should favor higher cadence. Carmichael's approach in "Time Crunched" is to build up your power at vO2max, so many of the intervals are supposed to be done at high RPM, 90-95 and up is typical. This may not work optimally, for everyone.


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## blackjack

*Meaningful comparisons?*



tom_h said:


> I've read that some of the skinny/lighter pro tour riders, like Saxo's Chris Sorensen, have developed a high RPM riding style to get their high power output (FTP high 300s watts)
> 
> Power = Torque (pedal force) x RPM.
> 
> If you don't have huge muscle strength, but do have a good cardio capability, then higher RPM climbing might suit you.
> 
> I think you do have to "re-train" yourself to some extent, so 1-2 rides might not be enough to answer the question, for your physiology.
> 
> I'm finding my best climbing is at 80-85 RPM ... I use compact 50-34 crank and usually 11-25 cassette. It takes conscious effort to adapt to higher RPM, and it's still not 'auto pilot' for me.
> 
> *Chris Carmichael, Lance's coach, is an advocate of higher RPM in his training books ... obviously worked well for his star athlete* ;-)


http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/joe-parkin-interview


_Parkin Correct. Absolutely. And it really has changed the way that the...even if you compare the way the riders look now, compared to the way we looked in the '80's and before...back then the legs were bigger, and the guys looked more muscular. And now, the riders are looking more overall athletic, but yet smaller. The oxygen uptake is so much greater on those drugs that they can turn the pedals over faster. *Back in the day...I always thought it was funny when you look at a rider like Jan Ullrich climb, compared to everyone else it looked like he was pedaling so slowly, and yet if you look at the way they pedaled in the Merckx era, the '80's...you look at Greg Lemond climb, he pedals slower than Ullrich ever did.* So, it has changed the way races are written. Even the guys that don't or didn't partake of the EPO type drugs, they all had to learn how to pedal faster and to ride differently, so..._

Personally, once I disposed of the high cadence ideas, I started riding much more strongly.

I ride bigger gears at a range of 70 to 90 rpm which isn't really all that slow.


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## tom_h

blackjack said:


> http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/joe-parkin-interview
> _Parkin Correct. Absolutely. And it really has changed the way that the...even if you compare the way the riders look now, compared to the way we looked in the '80's and before...back then the legs were bigger, and the guys looked more muscular. And now, the riders are looking more overall athletic, but yet smaller...._.


Partly supports my point, doesn't it? --- namely, that higher cadence can substitute for higher torque and "oversized" muscles.


The rest of that Joe Parkin interview also included:_*Parkin*: Even the guys that don't or didn't partake of the EPO type drugs, they all had to learn how to pedal faster and to ride differently, so..._
_*schmalz *Yeah they had to match the style in order to be competitve._
_*Parkin*: Exactly._
​"Competitive" also includes ability to launch or respond to attacks, and I think that's a little easier when you're at a higher RPM. I don't mean crazy-high, like 140 rpm, but the benefit is noticeable when comparing 85 vs 70 rpm on an uphill.


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## homebrew

That race calls for a compact. Even very for strong climbers suffer. I road Lincoln gap (next gap over with mile long section of 20% to 24% grade) and the approach to Apalacian gap (east to west, also called the baby gap) will have your legs cooked before you even start the gap proper. The last mile try not to look up. Seeing that wall before you can suck 50watts out of you in a heartbeat. Descending skills will make a big difference as well with some wicked switchbacks that come up on you fast. Good luck


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## the_gormandizer

homebrew said:


> That race calls for a compact. Even very for strong climbers suffer.


I did manage to take a top 10 finish in the Citizen's 4/5 race, which I'm quite proud of. My time for Baby Gap was fine, but I sucked on App Gap. I was in the top 3 after Baby, and watched 4 or 5 guys pass me on App, and I was cramping up for half the climb. I was slower on App Gap than when I did it as part of a 4 gap ride in training. The difference lies in _racing_ 68 miles before App Gap. I think a compact would help on App Gap as well as the pure hill climbs.


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## the_gormandizer

I did it. Compact Quarq, 50/34 with 11/28 cassette. Nowhere to go but up!


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## PissedOffCil

Sweet setup.


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## orangeclymer

Gents I have enjoyed reading this thread (2 times in fact) due to the feedback it has generated from different people..........which brings me to my question.

I'm curious about the actual art of breathing when sustaining a 80-90rpm cadence for say a 3mi climb. Certainly everyone has a different technique accompanied with cardio fitness but in general is it inhale through the nose exhale mouth?? inhale/exhale through the mouth or just simply whatever it takes to get the job done?? are they quick repetitions that are timely with your cadence or something a but slower??

TIA


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## PissedOffCil

Whatever it takes as far as I'm concerned. I try to control my breathing AFTER the climb though, just a couple of deep breaths to help get it back to its normal rate.


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## orangeclymer

PissedOffCil said:


> I try to control my breathing AFTER the climb though, just a couple of deep breaths to help get it back to its normal rate.


I certainly agree with this, i even get 4-5 deep ones in to settle it down but in general my RHR (recovery heart rate) is very good which is an indicator of good cardio fitness.


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## dwgranda

My opinion, for which I have only my own experience as evidence to support, is that on a climb where you are near your limit, you don't control your breathing - it pretty much takes care of itself. That usually means air is coming in and out of all places. If you can control your breathing then you're not going hard enough. Ok, ready for the link to the university paper that says just the opposite.



orangeclymer said:


> Gents I have enjoyed reading this thread (2 times in fact) due to the feedback it has generated from different people..........which brings me to my question.
> 
> I'm curious about the actual art of breathing when sustaining a 80-90rpm cadence for say a 3mi climb. Certainly everyone has a different technique accompanied with cardio fitness but in general is it inhale through the nose exhale mouth?? inhale/exhale through the mouth or just simply whatever it takes to get the job done?? are they quick repetitions that are timely with your cadence or something a but slower??
> 
> TIA


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## orangeclymer

dwgranda said:


> My opinion, for which I have only my own experience as evidence to support, is that on a climb where you are near your limit, you don't control your breathing - it pretty much takes care of itself. That usually means air is coming in and out of all places. If you can control your breathing then you're not going hard enough.


My experience as well but i wanted to throw it out there for people to comment etc in the event i'm missing something.




> Ok, ready for the link to the university paper that says just the opposite.


you funneeeeeee


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## c_rex

I do try to control my breathing in the sense that I make an effort to breathe deeply (mouth and diaphragm open) and mentally relax while keeping my back straight and head up to open my airway so as to get the oxygen in and C02 out. I believe it helps keep things in perspective and expands general awareness as to potential, oncoming events. Tangentially, I've also experimented with exhausting heat by pumping my tongue in and out of my mouth like a dog. Results have not yet been compiled on that last bit.


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## ericm979

I try to belly (diaphram) breathe, and I try to avoid breathing too fast. If I am not paying attention I can start breathing too fast, which is less effective. When it's cold and wet I have asthma (bronchiospasm). To combat that I practice "pursed breathing", closing my mouth part way on the exhale. It feels funny and I'm sure it looks stupid, but the backpressure helps keep my airways open and reduces the wheezing.


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## Gnarly 928

*Another thing to try, as you mess with your climbing cadence...*

....Is to become aware of which muscles you are using, the ones that actually help you up the mountain. As I attempt to refine my own climbing technique, having recently decided to again give higher cadence climbing a try...I've been paying attention to how I use myself going uphill.. 

Besides the obvious things like not excessively rocking back and forth or bobbing up and down...basic stuff...I find that I've been needlessly tensing up. With hours of uphill every week, plenty of time to 'check' what you are doing.. 

I sometimes find my core all "tensed-up". I've discovered myself using one muscle group against another for no reason...Just nerves, or perhaps anticipation of a steep pitch, a rider putting a move on, or whatever.

.As I've increased my average climbing cadence...quite often I've found myself 'locked up", for no useful reason, working my quads against my hamstrings and pulling ahead on the bars while pushing myself back on the saddle....like that...Big waste of energy, O2 and self-esteem (when I get gapped) ...and the further off the pace, the more I sometimes tense up....

With a "dope-slap" to my own helmet, I can let go of myself and climb in a more relaxed and effective way....when I make myself aware of it...

try it.


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## c_rex

reminds me of that joke that ends with "Relax. You're just two tents!"

Couldn't agree more with ya Gnarly. Well put.


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## Gnarly 928

One "tool" I have found for staying out of the "useless effort" mode is to try, when climbing on the saddle, is to try to make myself "heavy". When I am fighting myself, I find I am not really putting any weight on the saddle, but rather I am carrying myself all suspended, bridged. When I concentrate and let my weight go back onto my saddle..I seem to have more strength left over to turn the cranks... No sense (that I can see or feel) in using your legs and arms to take weight off the saddle....So I think "Heavy"...

Having your bike fit just right, that is big, too. If you can let body weight be supported without wasted effort by your saddle, as you concentrate your efforts on making the cranks go round (that, remember, is the only thing that turns the wheels, no matter what else you do) on substantial climbs I do much better...Takes concentration, though, to stay 'centered' on every foot of every climb.


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## orangeclymer

Gnarly 928 said:


> One "tool" I have found for staying out of the "useless effort" mode is to try, when climbing on the saddle, is to try to make myself "heavy". When I am fighting myself, I find I am not really putting any weight on the saddle, but rather I am carrying myself all suspended, bridged. When I concentrate and let my weight go back onto my saddle..I seem to have more strength left over to turn the cranks... No sense (that I can see or feel) in using your legs and arms to take weight off the saddle....So I think "Heavy"...
> 
> Having your bike fit just right, that is big, too. If you can let body weight be supported without wasted effort by your saddle, as you concentrate your efforts on making the cranks go round (that, remember, is the only thing that turns the wheels, no matter what else you do) on substantial climbs I do much better...Takes concentration, though, to stay 'centered' on every foot of every climb.



Mmmmm in short be one with your trusty steed yes?


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## zion rasta

60 rpm is called grinding and mashing. Get some compact crankset and spin like a mofo.


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## spade2you

eliza18812 said:


> i am not able to understand


What mashing is, why not to do it, and/or compact gearing?


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## slegros

Here is an interesting chart from 53x12.com showing power output vs. most efficient cadence for climbing.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=27


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## rm -rf

the_gormandizer said:


> I am thinking about trying a coupled of hill climbs next year, particularly Mt Ascutney, which is a 3.8 mile climb, at about 15% grade. The really fast guys do it in about 26 minutes.
> 
> Recently, I did the climb in 34 minutes using a *39x28* setup. As you can see, though, my cadence was horrible, averaging under *60 rpm*. It is really hard to get into a rhythm with my gearing. I'm thinking that a compact crank might be what I need to get my cadence up to around 80+ rpm. Before making the investment, I am just wondering whether there are any insights as to how much it would really help my times?


Since you already have a 28 cog, the only change would be the chainring going from 39 to 34. That's 39/34 = 1.15 or 15% easier. So your 60 cadence would go to 68-69. 

(A 28 cog is fairly unusual. Maybe you have a 12-27 cog set?)

I like Mike Sherman's Gear Calculator. It updates it's charts on the fly as you make changes. The Speed Over RPM Range chart is the most useful.
For example--a 39-25 between 80 and 100 rpm is approximately 10 mph to 12 mph (red bars are 39 chainring speeds):


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## the_gormandizer

rm -rf said:


> (A 28 cog is fairly unusual. Maybe you have a 12-27 cog set?)


Nope it's an 11-28, available with SRAM Red, Force etc. I could go bigger if I stuck on a medium cage rear derailleur just for the hillclimb. I rode a 12-27 for years with 9 speed Ultegra, but did not compete. 

Still I think that the compact will make a big difference when doing a 30 minute climb at an all-out effort. 15% is 15%! As other posters have pointed out it might not make me faster, but it will save my legs.


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## rm -rf

the_gormandizer said:


> Nope it's an 11-28, available with SRAM Red, Force etc. I could go bigger if I stuck on a medium cage rear derailleur just for the hillclimb. I rode a 12-27 for years with 9 speed Ultegra, but did not compete.
> 
> Still I think that the compact will make a big difference when doing a 30 minute climb at an all-out effort. 15% is 15%! As other posters have pointed out it might not make me faster, but it will save my legs.


Oh, I haven't seen those. 

I have a 34-29 Campagnolo low gear. It's way out of the recommended range for a short cage, but it just barely works on my bike. I really like having one more low gear. I can sit and spin up some grades that I had to stand on.


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## New_user

This article seems to be a good summary of two strategic approaches to the issue of high vs low cadence:

http://coachlevi.com/cycling/high-vs-low-cadence-pedaling-speed/

"If you are riding with a high cadence in an easy gear, pedaling is going to tax your cardiovascular and respiratory systems. If you have a strong heart and lungs, you can probably hold a fast cadence for a long period of time. *Because of the easy gear, it will produce less strain on your muscles*.

Low cadence riding in a hard gear taxes your skeletal muscles, specifically your quads. Since you’re using a big gear, you have to apply lots of force to turn it. If your legs are very big and powerful, this may work well for you.

Turning the big gear slowly has less effect on your heart and lungs, so you’re less likely to be gasping for air or have a skyrocketing heart rate.

However, there is an edge towards the higher cadence riding. *Your heart and lungs can take repeated punishment for long periods of time (and they recovery quickly after hard efforts,) while your muscles will fatigue relatively quickly*.

A high cadence also places less stress and torque on your knees. So if you have bad knees, you’re usually better off spinning faster, in a low gear.

There is also a tactical advantage to using a high cadence. Spinning fast in a low gear allows for faster accelerations, because you can bump up your cadence even more to increase your speed. If you need to shift gears, that’s also easier, since the drivetrain in under less stress."


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## Gnarly 928

FWIW, there is a company (French?) that makes a compact inner chainring as a 33. Fits on my FSA compact set up and gives me the gearing I want..I did have to install some spacers to keep my 9sp chain from rubbing the large chain ring when I was cross chained on the smaller chainring.

I made it up a mile of 15-18% (Dante's View, Death Valley) in the 33/27 which I use for 'everyday' training. Mountain bike gearing would have been better for that, but ya "Run what ya brung" , I guess, when out traveling around and riding..


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## tom_h

With the usual caveat that "we're not all pros" etc, check out this 2009 video of Ryder Hesjedal climbing Haleakala mountain climb, in Maui: 
http://vimeo.com/2805838 

At the very end, the video summarizes his performance : 
*Average Cadence: 89 rpm *
Power Average: 350 watts 
Elevation gain: about 10,000 ft 
Total Distance: 56.8 km (35.3 mile) 
Total time: 2:32 hrs:min 
Average Speed: 22.4 km/hr (13.9 mph) 
Average Heart Rate: 168 bpm 

This is during winter training, so he was _not_ likely in top form (!). 
And, at that elevation (10,000 ft) his power is reduced significantly from sea level. 

High cadence obviously works very well for Ryder!


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## Gnarly 928

Gnarly 928 said:


> FWIW, there is a company (French?) that makes a compact inner chainring as a 33.
> 
> I made it up a mile of 15-18% (Dante's View, Death Valley) in the 33/27
> 
> Whoops! I meant my __/25 rear cog..I have a 27 that I wished I was riding...but for everyday and club rides, the 12/27 is too slow downhill..
> 
> At the Everest Challenge Race, an epic climbing race with the last few thousand feet every day pretty steep, many peeps go to a long cage rear and a compact and use as low as a 34/34....to grind out the last few feet ....But that is a 29,000+ foot race, and only the old guys do the really low gearing.


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## plx

HeluvaSkier said:


> I ride a compact crank and in a hill climb TT I did this year my average cadence was 89rpm (one short climb, one short downhill, and a longer climb). The climb had 15%+ grades so I actually used an 11-28 cassette. I didn't use the 28 much, but it was great to have just in case I needed an easier gear in order to maintain a high cadence (which I did use on the 15% sections of the climb). The strategy worked out alright because I placed third overall and first in my age group.
> 
> ...60 climbing cadence seems very low to me, and at that cadence in a race - answering attacks/accelerations and such would be very difficult. ...At least for someone with my low level of strength.


if you have to respond to an attack on 15% you're in trouble


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## the_gormandizer

*So much for cadence*

As the OP I thought I'd share my experience with a compact. As a background, I am a 50+ Cat 5, but have managed to do o.k. in several road races. My ftp is 270W and my weight is 152 lbs.

*Ascutney Hill Climb*

Ascutney is a 3.8 mile climb, averaging 15% grade.

In 2010, I rode Ascutney as a training ride with my 39/53 standard setup and an 11-28 cassette. I rode to the climb, which took 70 mins, at a NP of 221W (endurance pace). I completed the climb in 34:14, at a NP of 287W and an average cadence of 58rpm.

In 2011 I decided to enter the race. I also got some coaching help. After a recon on Ascutney using my 34/50 compact, the coach recommended I gear even lower. So I installed a mountain derailleur and a 12-36 cassette. For the race, my time was 34:10, at a NP of 288W and an average cadence of 77 rpm.

Clearly, the higher cadence did not help me, nor did it hurt me.

*Mad River Road Race*

The Mad River Road Race is a Citizen's 4/5 Race on the same course as the queen stage of the Green Mountain Stage Race. This race culminates on Appalachian Gap, which is more than 2 miles of 15% (or more) type grades, following "Baby Gap" which is a 3 mile prelude, of lower grade (5-8%).

I did it in 2010 using the 39/53 chain rings and an 11-28 cassette. I did great over Baby Gap, staying with the leaders, but cramped massively on App Gap, and barely hung on to finish in about 7th place.

In 2011, the story repeated. Even with the 34/50 and 11-28 setup, and paying extra attention to on-the-bike hydration and nutrition, I again cramped on App Gap, and slipped out of the top 10.

Again, I think my issue was most likely one of preparation. Having a family with young kids I had not done enough pure endurance training (i.e. long rides). 

*Conclusion*

This is just my anecdotal experience. I love my compact for riding in the mountains, and I think the only time when it should be a disadvantage is a downhill sprint finish. But I think when I have a bailout gear, I tend to use it. Maybe I just lack mental toughness.


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