# Le Champion SL Ti vs. Immortal Ice



## wolverine14 (Dec 23, 2007)

Suggestions please...
...I have about 1 week to decide between the Titanium Le Champion SL or the Immortal Ice. My intent is to utilize the bike in local (sprint & olympic) triathlons and I have seen Mike describe the Ti bike as a sport bike so I'm hesitating. I understand the differences in frame material and their respective impact on the feel of the ride, so I'd like to know if the geometry is different? If so, is one bike better suited than the other for my intended use (I'll add clip-on aero bars to either)?

I should also mention that I do plan to also ride this casually and have previously done this on my 2005 Trek 2300, full ultegra 30sp.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

wolverine14 said:


> Suggestions please...
> ...I have about 1 week to decide between the Titanium Le Champion SL or the Immortal Ice. My intent is to utilize the bike in local (sprint & olympic) triathlons and I have seen Mike describe the Ti bike as a sport bike so I'm hesitating. I understand the differences in frame material and their respective impact on the feel of the ride, so I'd like to know if the geometry is different? If so, is one bike better suited than the other for my intended use (I'll add clip-on aero bars to either)?
> 
> I should also mention that I do plan to also ride this casually and have previously done this on my 2005 Trek 2300, full ultegra 30sp.


Either bike would be fine for your use but neither will be a improvement over you Trek.

If you are getting a new bike to be "faster" you are wasting your money. If you just want a new bike than get one.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

I too am considering the Immortal Ice to replace my tired 7 year old Lemond. What does a comparable Trek go for these days (full Ultegra) versus the $1795 Ice?


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## wolverine14 (Dec 23, 2007)

I'm looking to replace the Trek as it was stolen recently. As far as replacement costs, it's about $1k more without the Ultegra SL wheelset.

So which bike is closer in geometry to the Trek?


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

I believe the Immortal Ice is. Sounds like its nicer on the wallet too. I would have to tweak the stem for a more upright position (back), but I'd have to do that for most performance bikes. I'm just looking at it as the most bike and components for the buck...


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## wolverine14 (Dec 23, 2007)

*Mike (or other Bikes Direct folks) - any thoughts?*



wolverine14 said:


> Suggestions please...
> ...I have about 1 week to decide between the Titanium Le Champion SL or the Immortal Ice.....so I'd like to know if the geometry is different? If so, is one bike better suited than the other for my intended use (I'll add clip-on aero bars to either)?
> 
> I should also mention that I do plan to also ride this casually and have previously done this on my 2005 Trek 2300, full ultegra 30sp.


BD folks - which will feel more like my old Trek 2300 (geometry-wise)? Per the pictures both look like less of a compact bike than the Trek. Does that mean that either geometry is too much of a sport "touring" style or am I reading too much into Mike's description?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

wolverine14 said:


> BD folks - which will feel more like my old Trek 2300 (geometry-wise)? Per the pictures both look like less of a compact bike than the Trek. Does that mean that either geometry is too much of a sport "touring" style or am I reading too much into Mike's description?


Hi

A Trek 2300 will be different than either of these bikes
But on method of fit - Immortal Ice is closest

Le Champion Ti is semi compact and sizes more like a Trek Pilot

If you want a rael racy feel and more comfort than the 2300 - Immortal Ice
If you want a more upright ride than the 2300 and a ride that is smooth as silk -- Le C Ti


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## wolverine14 (Dec 23, 2007)

Mike - I'm definitely looking for a more race type setup. Thanks, as I have seen previously, you are very helpful. Although I haven't pulled the trigger on a road bike, I will be in line for one your Ti Fly MTBs...this is a deal that can't be passed up.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

*Upright position*

Mike;

What would it take to set up the Immortal Ice to be as upright as the trek Pilot? Is that at all possible? I basically need the handlebars to be almost level with saddle.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

cyclesport45 said:


> Mike;
> 
> What would it take to set up the Immortal Ice to be as upright as the trek Pilot? Is that at all possible? I basically need the handlebars to be almost level with saddle.



It depends on your leg length and height and size you get of course
many riders get adjustable stems and change the angle

myself - I ride bikes that are 'big' for me based on standard sizing techniques
and thus with a bit shorter and more upright stem
I do not have lean over as much

Sizing and setup is a personal matter - not a Science [as some would like to pretend it is]
your sizing and setup can & should change with use and age and even psyhical condition

if you are interested in my dircet input on your best choice
just PM me your height, leg inseam, age, use of bike, style of riding type info
and I'll be glad to give you my advise

thanks


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

Mike;

OK, here goes. Height; 5'11. Leg "inseam" (from Body Scanning at LBS) is 33.8". Age is 47. Bike use... about 4K per year. Club racing, centuries. Riding type... the usual group rides with lots of sprints. The LBS dude who scanned me had these observations... Very inflexible lower back and hamstrings. He strongly suggests handlebars level with saddle (saddle height is 29.5"). And he doesn't want me being stretched out reaching for the bars, thinks I'm losing power fighting my own body that way. Merry Christmas (or, Happy Holidays, you pick)


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

cyclesport45 said:


> Mike;
> 
> OK, here goes. Height; 5'11. Leg "inseam" (from Body Scanning at LBS) is 33.8". Age is 47. Bike use... about 4K per year. Club racing, centuries. Riding type... the usual group rides with lots of sprints. The LBS dude who scanned me had these observations... Very inflexible lower back and hamstrings. He strongly suggests handlebars level with saddle (saddle height is 29.5"). And he doesn't want me being stretched out reaching for the bars, thinks I'm losing power fighting my own body that way. Merry Christmas (or, Happy Holidays, you pick)



You will face a very common dilemma. The 56 will have the right reach but too much drop and the 59 will have the right drop but too much reach. You will be able to get there as long as you are willing to accept an "unconventional" stem. Either way you will want to keep the maximum amount of spacers the fork allows. 

I would guess the 56 would be better.

You may also want to consider the bars. I find that I can ride fine in the hoods with an inch or so bar drop but with "standard" bars I'm uncomfortable in the drops. If you can find a more shallow bar you maybe able to find a happy medium.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

cyclesport45 said:


> Mike;
> 
> OK, here goes. Height; 5'11. Leg "inseam" (from Body Scanning at LBS) is 33.8". Age is 47. Bike use... about 4K per year. Club racing, centuries. Riding type... the usual group rides with lots of sprints. The LBS dude who scanned me had these observations... Very inflexible lower back and hamstrings. He strongly suggests handlebars level with saddle (saddle height is 29.5"). And he doesn't want me being stretched out reaching for the bars, thinks I'm losing power fighting my own body that way. Merry Christmas (or, Happy Holidays, you pick)



I did PM my reccommendations

There are several threads on Ti vs Carbon that you may also find helpful

thanks


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## lotharkumar (May 7, 2011)

Mike(BD), I am new to roadbikereview and am in the market for a new road bike. I am almost 6'4, Age 38, weight 215 lbs. I will be riding about 4-5K per year. I may also do a few 100-200 mile rides in the year. 

I am thinking between Immortal Force and Le Champion CF. Also, where I live there are hills to climb to get home. I was also thinking of what the difference would be between 20 spd and 30 spd here.

Please advise.

Thanks!


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## theplumber (Apr 18, 2012)

lotharkumar said:


> Mike(BD), I am new to roadbikereview and am in the market for a new road bike. I am almost 6'4, Age 38, weight 215 lbs. I will be riding about 4-5K per year. I may also do a few 100-200 mile rides in the year.
> 
> I am thinking between Immortal Force and Le Champion CF. Also, where I live there are hills to climb to get home. I was also thinking of what the difference would be between 20 spd and 30 spd here.
> 
> ...


Bump


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I know I'm the odd duck here, and this is strictly an opinion, but I would try to get a TI bike if you can find one that will fit due to the reliability factor of the TI over the CF. For a hint as to what I'm getting at see the videos on my sig line.


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## RLucky82 (Jul 31, 2012)

froze said:


> I know I'm the odd duck here, and this is strictly an opinion, but I would try to get a TI bike if you can find one that will fit due to the reliability factor of the TI over the CF. For a hint as to what I'm getting at see the videos on my sig line.


Have you seen this video?

Pinkbike Visits The Santa Cruz Test Lab Video - YouTube

Or this one just for fun?

Amazing stunt riding...on a carbon road bike - YouTube


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

RLucky82 said:


> Have you seen this video?
> 
> Pinkbike Visits The Santa Cruz Test Lab Video - YouTube
> 
> ...


Sooooo? It's comparing CF to Al. And I guarantee you would not want to ride the CF after it took just half the weight and distance before it broke, why, did you notice the cracking sounds the CF was making long before it actually broke? I'm sure that frame would be real safe to ride on after that.


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## CycoBob (Aug 1, 2012)

froze said:


> I know I'm the odd duck here, and this is strictly an opinion, but I would try to get a TI bike if you can find one that will fit due to the reliability factor of the TI over the CF. For a hint as to what I'm getting at see the videos on my sig line.


Call me Daffy, too! I currently ride aluminum. My next bike may be Ti. or Al. or even steel; anything but CF. I don't want anything CF- frame nor components; I'm even leery of CF forks (Though I may be persuaded otherwise on that- the jury's still out...). 

Now to watch those vids......


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## CycoBob (Aug 1, 2012)

The jury is now in on carbon forks. No dice!!!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CycoBob said:


> Call me Daffy, too! I currently ride aluminum. My next bike may be Ti. or Al. or even steel; anything but CF. I don't want anything CF- frame nor components; I'm even leery of CF forks (Though I may be persuaded otherwise on that- the jury's still out...).
> 
> Now to watch those vids......


Unfortunately with today's bikes they almost all come with CF forks which I really don't like either. The only way you can get a steel or aluminum fork, but then you have a heavier bike if that means anything, but those are heavier forks, and that kind of defeats the purpose of buying a lighter bike. 

I find it amazing that some go off showing how tough CF is with bogus films, yet no bike manufacture makes a CF touring bike because it just won't handle the weight of fully packed touring bike and even CF manufactures say that CF frames can't handle it. And why is CF unsuitable for touring...duh, it's weaker then steel or even aluminum!! Any internet search for the best frame material for use as touring bicycle will prove this. Of course the CF fanatics say that there's no reason to use CF for touring, but that's actually incorrect, because the touring crowd is always trying to find stuff they need to use on a tour that's light so they can save on packing weight, and if CF could be made into a strong touring bike and save a 3 to 5 pounds or maybe more in travel weight the touring crowd would be jumping on it.

I think as far as forks are concerned if you stay with a major CF name brand fork manufacture you should be ok with one on a road bike, not a touring bike though unless you're only doing credit card tours and won't be carrying more then 30 pounds of gear on the rear and nothing on the front except a handle bar bag.


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## RLucky82 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol I weigh close to 200 lbs and ride a carbon fiber bike. I guess my forks should be snapping soon:blush2:


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## CycoBob (Aug 1, 2012)

froze said:


> Unfortunately with today's bikes they almost all come with CF forks which I really don't like either. The only way you can get a steel or aluminum fork, but then you have a heavier bike if that means anything, but those are heavier forks, and that kind of defeats the purpose of buying a lighter bike.
> 
> I find it amazing that some go off showing how tough CF is with bogus films, yet no bike manufacture makes a CF touring bike because it just won't handle the weight of fully packed touring bike and even CF manufactures say that CF frames can't handle it. And why is CF unsuitable for touring...duh, it's weaker then steel or even aluminum!! Any internet search for the best frame material for use as touring bicycle will prove this. Of course the CF fanatics say that there's no reason to use CF for touring, but that's actually incorrect, because the touring crowd is always trying to find stuff they need to use on a tour that's light so they can save on packing weight, and if CF could be made into a strong touring bike and save a 3 to 5 pounds or maybe more in travel weight the touring crowd would be jumping on it.
> 
> I think as far as forks are concerned if you stay with a major CF name brand fork manufacture you should be ok with one on a road bike, not a touring bike though unless you're only doing credit card tours and won't be carrying more then 30 pounds of gear on the rear and nothing on the front except a handle bar bag.


Good stuff! I like how some manufacturers will guarantee a metal frame for life....but CF only for a year or two- that tells the story. 

I like the vid where they're putting 1200 lbs. of pressure on a carbon fork- but in perfectly administered compression down it's strongest axis- ROTFL! Like that'd happen in real-life.

Do the ti. bikes even come with carbon forks? I'm not a tourer....so at least i don't have to worry about that stuff; just a recreational roadie. I'm gentle on bikes, bike I like things that are durable, and that you don't have to worry about or treat like a Hummel figurine.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CycoBob said:


> Do the ti. bikes even come with carbon forks? I'm not a tourer....so at least i don't have to worry about that stuff; just a recreational roadie. I'm gentle on bikes, bike I like things that are durable, and that you don't have to worry about or treat like a Hummel figurine.


Yup, that's all TI bikes come with is CF forks. Most non racing, ie non ultralight weight forks are plenty strong enough to handle the rigors of normal street riding, but there is always that "if". If you hit a curb, or a chuck hole, or something on the road that could crack the fork. A huge problem for CF forks is damage that can't be seen because it occurred on the inside where you can't see it on the outside.

They can't make TI into forks because it's too flexy, of course they could increase the diameter of the blades but that would ruin the aerodynamics of the fork and make the bike look weird. There are some out there for road bikes, but I know very little about them, are they flexy? are they heavy? are they expensive? I've seen some cheap Chinese made TI road forks but I would avoid those. There may be some good builders of TI forks but I don't who they are.

I'm like you too, I want things to last and that's why all my bikes are steel with the oldest one I bought new in 84 which now has over 160,000 miles on it and still going strong though I've semi retired it this last year to ride some of the others I have laying around. But I was considering the Le Champion Inferno Ti, unfortunately due to an accident that killed the at fault drunk driver and injured my back, and subsequently was laid off due to the back...the bike is on indefinite hold; not a big deal, it was a want not a need anyways. I was wanting a lighter bike for an attempt to reenter racing again for old farts!!


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## CycoBob (Aug 1, 2012)

froze said:


> Yup, that's all TI bikes come with is CF forks. Most non racing, ie non ultralight weight forks are plenty strong enough to handle the rigors of normal street riding, but there is always that "if". If you hit a curb, or a chuck hole, or something on the road that could crack the fork. A huge problem for CF forks is damage that can't be seen because it occurred on the inside where you can't see it on the outside.
> 
> They can't make TI into forks because it's too flexy, of course they could increase the diameter of the blades but that would ruin the aerodynamics of the fork and make the bike look weird. There are some out there for road bikes, but I know very little about them, are they flexy? are they heavy? are they expensive? I've seen some cheap Chinese made TI road forks but I would avoid those. There may be some good builders of TI forks but I don't who they are.
> 
> I'm like you too, I want things to last and that's why all my bikes are steel with the oldest one I bought new in 84 which now has over 160,000 miles on it and still going strong though I've semi retired it this last year to ride some of the others I have laying around. But I was considering the Le Champion Inferno Ti, unfortunately due to an accident that killed the at fault drunk driver and injured my back, and subsequently was laid off due to the back...the bike is on indefinite hold; not a big deal, it was a want not a need anyways. I was wanting a lighter bike for an attempt to reenter racing again for old farts!!


Thanks for all the info. I had not really seriously started to do any research yet, pertaining to upgrading, so you saved me a lot of time.

So, I guess a Ti bike would be kind of flexy then? I like a stiff frame.

I wouldn't be surprised if I end up buying a retro steel frame from the 80's and do my own build.... If I can get a <20 lb. bike out of it, it'd probably be my best option. Or maybe a modern Al. bike and put a steel fork on it (Seriously, what would it ad- a pound?)- Like I said, I'm pretty gentle with bikes, but on narrow rural roads, sometimes ya just can't avoid debris or chuckholes. I hit a c. 2 in. square box-shaped rock the other day with my front tire, and I couldn't believe that I didn't get a pinch flat (I do tend to keep my tires pretty firm)- It shot the rock out like a bullet! (It was a little mine-field of debris at the bottom of a fast descent....poking my way through it, I HAD to hit something!]

Oh, and so sorry to hear of your accident!!! I remember reading the story of it a while back, when I was a lurker. Glad to hear that the bad guy got his comeupance for a change- but it still sucks that you- the innocent party- had to suffer life-changing consequences. It could have been so much worse, but I know that that is no consolation for bodily and financial effects that you have to suffer through now. That drunk committed suicide- it's just a shame that he had to use an innocent person as his means of doing so.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CycoBob said:


> Thanks for all the info. I had not really seriously started to do any research yet, pertaining to upgrading, so you saved me a lot of time.
> 
> So, I guess a Ti bike would be kind of flexy then? I like a stiff frame.
> 
> ...


No, a TI frame would not be flexy because with a TI frame they can make the main triangle larger in diameter, just like they do with aluminum frames, this larger diameter tubing combined with shaped tubing makes the main triangle pretty stiff. But since the stays cannot be make as large as the main triangle they do tend to be a little bit flexy which is good because they can absorb the vibration and take the harshness out of the rear which means you'll feel more comfortable riding it because that's where your butt is and most of your body. Also note that most of the flexy stuff you won't notice if your not racing; but there is a guy here on this forum that bought one of the Ti Champs from BD and he races it and loves it.

It's not a bad idea to buy to retro 80's era frame, if having a lightweight bike is not your thing then why not get a vintage frame? There are some real advantages to older stuff. Older stuff means wider chains and teeth on the gears because they either run 5, 6, or 7 speed chains and gears. which means they last about 5 times longer then today's 10 speed chains and clusters. Good steel if taken care of can more then last a lifetime. But steel is also flexy, especially some of the older stuff and especially to some degree mid and more of a degree with lower end frames. But the drawback to older bikes are some of the parts get increasingly harder to find and more expensive.

As far as the accident goes, I'm sad for his 16 year old daughter because of his choice of behavior...but, it was his choice, so I'm not sad or depressed over the fact that he used me to complete his path on this Earth, but he did that...not me . Yes, I was left with injuries, but life goes on. I could have been injured doing a number of other things, it just so happened to work out that way instead of a different way like falling off a ladder, or crashing a bike, or whatever. I've had a lot of accidents in my life, and brushes with death that being in the military made happen, and I survived those things and I survived yet again another situation where I should have been killed again. So for that I give the glory to God. I'm no special person, but for reasons I don't even know, I was chosen to remain longer on Earth.


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## CycoBob (Aug 1, 2012)

froze said:


> No, a TI frame would not be flexy because with a TI frame they can make the main triangle larger in diameter, just like they do with aluminum frames, this larger diameter tubing combined with shaped tubing makes the main triangle pretty stiff. But since the stays cannot be make as large as the main triangle they do tend to be a little bit flexy which is good because they can absorb the vibration and take the harshness out of the rear which means you'll feel more comfortable riding it because that's where your butt is and most of your body. Also note that most of the flexy stuff you won't notice if your not racing; but there is a guy here on this forum that bought one of the Ti Champs from BD and he races it and loves it.
> 
> It's not a bad idea to buy to retro 80's era frame, if having a lightweight bike is not your thing then why not get a vintage frame? There are some real advantages to older stuff. Older stuff means wider chains and teeth on the gears because they either run 5, 6, or 7 speed chains and gears. which means they last about 5 times longer then today's 10 speed chains and clusters. Good steel if taken care of can more then last a lifetime. But steel is also flexy, especially some of the older stuff and especially to some degree mid and more of a degree with lower end frames. But the drawback to older bikes are some of the parts get increasingly harder to find and more expensive.
> 
> As far as the accident goes, I'm sad for his 16 year old daughter because of his choice of behavior...but, it was his choice, so I'm not sad or depressed over the fact that he used me to complete his path on this Earth, but he did that...not me . Yes, I was left with injuries, but life goes on. I could have been injured doing a number of other things, it just so happened to work out that way instead of a different way like falling off a ladder, or crashing a bike, or whatever. I've had a lot of accidents in my life, and brushes with death that being in the military made happen, and I survived those things and I survived yet again another situation where I should have been killed again. So for that I give the glory to God. I'm no special person, but for reasons I don't even know, I was chosen to remain longer on Earth.


Ah, O-K, gotcha! Ti. bikes are now back on my list! If I had to get a better bike today, I think the choice would be between a Motobecane Ti or an old Klein [pre-Trek, or course] - I'd appreciate your opinion of the Kleins, if you have an opinion on them. (I've not really researched them yet, either- just heard a lot of good stuff on this forum, and the fact that they appeal to me. I think some of them may have BB issues?]

I'm glad that you have such a good perspective about the accident. It might really bother someone else, just being involved with the drunk croaking. Not me though- if I were in your shoes, I'd probably go dance on the guy's grave, or make a puddle on it  - Sucks that he didn't even care enough about his own family to avoid such irresponsible behavior. I can't help but to be glad that someone like that is no longer among the living. 

I've been very blessed also, in that I've managed to get 2/3's of the way through my life without being in any serious accidents- but I can imagine how terrible it must be- and multiple times, no less- Yikes! 

Hang in there, buddy.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CycoBob said:


> Ah, O-K, gotcha! Ti. bikes are now back on my list! If I had to get a better bike today, I think the choice would be between a Motobecane Ti or an old Klein [pre-Trek, or course] - I'd appreciate your opinion of the Kleins, if you have an opinion on them. (I've not really researched them yet, either- just heard a lot of good stuff on this forum, and the fact that they appeal to me. I think some of them may have BB issues?]
> 
> I'm glad that you have such a good perspective about the accident. It might really bother someone else, just being involved with the drunk croaking. Not me though- if I were in your shoes, I'd probably go dance on the guy's grave, or make a puddle on it  - Sucks that he didn't even care enough about his own family to avoid such irresponsible behavior. I can't help but to be glad that someone like that is no longer among the living.
> 
> ...


I use to race with guys that raced on the old Keins, they all said they were great frames, one of the guys I knew that had an old on later bought a post Trek Klien and he had very little good to say about it, he much preferred the old Klein. But having never personally ridden either of the two, that's all I can say about Klein. The only question I have about Klein is the fact their aluminum and aluminum limited life cycle vs TI or Steel; I know the friend that owned both Kleins could no longer ride the old one because the frame after 5 or 6 years of racing broke a chain stay.

Multiple times I can't even discuss here because mentioning these things would probably upset some and make others think the stories aren't true, their that bazaar. I almost didn't mention the drunk accident, but I took a chance with it, even then I waited almost 9 months I think it was before I told the story, but I needed to be sure it was no longer circulated the news for someone here to research it and put the incident together and then my name would be known. I wish to remain private.

But really, I never wished for anyone to be dead, not even a child molester! Not even the enemy I faced!!! Though I understand the hate that rally's such thoughts, and understand the necessity of it. We as a people need to hate the sin and not the person.


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## RLucky82 (Jul 31, 2012)

Martyn Ashton - Road Bike Party "The Outtakes" - YouTube

omg he chipped the fork!


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