# V-Brakes vs Cantilevers for Cyclocross/Road use



## rallyrabbit

Hi guys, I've poured through as much data on bikeforums.net and roadbikeform trying to get anything that might help me.

My wife made me get rid of my bikes and allowed me one (small house). So, I got a cyclocross bike to help me to fit into all 3 worlds (cross, mountain, trail, road).

So, I read over and over how spongy cantilevers can be and that people don't recommend them for the road. or that they just can't stop you fast. So, for the past 2 years I used Tektro RX3 with Travel Agent. I was satisfied until both springs and moving parts gave out on the brake arms. So, I switched to the RX5, which they sucked and the springs were garbage (they just wouldn't retract) and now to the BX3v which also can't seem to stay in adjustment and squeal like crazy even with Kool Stop pads. I mean, seriously can't get it to stop.

The LBS is telling me to upgrade to Shimano XT or XTR V-Brakes because of their engineered movement that moves the pad parallel with the rim.

But at this point, I need cantilever opinions. Considering I ride on the road, are they an option? I can't find any listed on the Shimano website, but Sram has the Shorty Ultimate, 4 and 6. Are there any cantis that are going to give me good road stopping power?

Or, are there any opinions on a better V-Brake to get than the Tektro?

Any opinions? Can cantilever be safe enough for a road bike race where I need to stop in tons of traffic or coming down a mountain?


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## tober1

I have never been a fan of cantis - just can't get them adjusted as well as I want. With V's I just fiddle with the screws a little and they're set. Easy to toe-in and easy to replace. 
I have an Acera set on my commuter and they've been flawless thus far. Great braking even when I'm carrying two panniers. Haven't had much wet experience though. 

Keep in mind the pads you opt for will have a large effect on your braking. I seem to have landed on Kool-Stops and they're great.


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## limba

If you don't race in mud then there's no reason to use cantis. Get some TRP mini-v's and be done with it.

and yes, Kool Stop salmon pads are a proven winner.


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## ts8169

I have a set of Cane Creek cantis on my cross bike which I ride 90% on the road. Don't really care for them and have been watching the 2013 disk brake CX bikes very closely. Probably won't be able to go disk this year so I'm stuck with the cantis. They stop ok on the road but not an ideal brake IMO. I've been told there's more drag (aero) but I don't care about that. Never heard of these 'Salmon' pads. Are they just the color? Most Kool Stops I've seen are black. My CX bike has gray. My MTB has green (ceramic wheels).


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## limba

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html


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## ts8169

This is great, thanks a lot for the link! Can't believe I've never heard of these.


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## rallyrabbit

So, if I am reading right:

Linear Pull:
Can be better braking potential, more mechanical advantage with Travel Agent, but doesn't give good clearance

Short Cantilever
Hard to set up, less braking power than linear pull, seem to be squealing complaints, hit or miss with squealing, better clearance than V

Long throw cantilever
Great clearance, not as great stopping ability as the other two, the choice for use on cross bikes

So, with that, it is either go linear pull or short throw cantilever. If the later is the case, does one go Avid Short 4 or 6, or something like a Shimano XT?


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## ts8169

If the "Travel Agent" mentioned here is the device I'm thinking of, I would avoid IMO. I used these years ago when converting my mountain bike from cantis to V-brakes and wanted to keep my old high-end brake levers. The travel agents created a nasty kink in the brake cable that quickly frayed and started to rip apart within the season. I removed the agents for safety and got new V-brake levers. Unfortunately there are no road levers compatible with v-brakes that I know of. Anyway, not a risk I would take for the sake of V-brakes personally.


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## jrm

*Full sized V brakes*

ive gone back and forth and always returned to v brakes on my CX builds. Even though they limit your shifter options theyre still my go to set up.


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## limba

Forget about any Avid brakes not named Ultimate. You probably don't want mtn. v-brakes either. You need to match the TRP mini V to your shifters. If you ride on dry roads/trails mini v's are your best choice.

Check these out. TRP

TRP


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## OnTheRivet

Mini-V's. How is this still not getting through to people. You can outfit your bike with a set of 926 Tektro's for $30.00 and they don't need a leverage adjuster (travel agent) and they stop as good as discs in the dry.


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## pretender

Seems like some people find any reason to complain about brakes, and others just brake.


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## OnTheRivet

FYI, just weighed my 926's with aluminum bolts and Kool Stop road pad holders, 151gs for the pair. Total of $40.00 invested for the same weight as 8.4's.


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## AndrwSwitch

OP - I have the Tektro BX3v. Got 'em this season. (And for others, this is a mini-V with an 85mm arm. I have no idea why Tektro has so many 85mm mini-Vs, but whatever.)

They work great. I haven't had them that long, but so far, so good...

What kind of brake levers are you using? They're made to go with road levers.


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## TXBDan

I'm happy with my CR720 cantis and here's why. On the road, i feel they stop fine. I've never had an oh **** moment of felt i needed more. It does take some effort though for the most power.

Off road, the CR720s still almost stop too hard. You need to be able to accurately modulate the brakes on loose surfaces. Locking up a wheel is the last thing you want to do. Too much brake on our little tires in the dirt and you'll be skidding and washing out all over. Mini-Vs and especially discs would be like on/off switches

Max clearance and weigh only 126g each.


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## OnTheRivet

TXBDan said:


> I'm happy with my CR720 cantis and here's why. On the road, i feel they stop fine. I've never had an oh **** moment of felt i needed more. It does take some effort though for the most power.
> 
> Off road, the CR720s still almost stop too hard. You need to be able to accurately modulate the brakes on loose surfaces. Locking up a wheel is the last thing you want to do. Too much brake on our little tires in the dirt and you'll be skidding and washing out all over. Mini-Vs and especially discs would be like on/off switches
> 
> Max clearance and weigh only 126g each.


I've had cr720s, and e end set up perfectly the were mediocre at best. Its not about outright power its about hand force needed to stop the bike. While your in the drops yanking on the levers with 4 fingers to get your 720s to stop I'm using one finger from the hoods to accomplish the same thing.


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## CAD10

limba said:


> Forget about any Avid brakes not named Ultimate. You probably don't want mtn. v-brakes either. You need to match the TRP mini V to your shifters. If you ride on dry roads/trails mini v's are your best choice.
> 
> Check these out. TRP
> 
> TRP


I love my TRP canti's....set up with a good set of Kool Stops it will toss you over the bars.

I use the euro x magnesiums but the plain old euro x's work just as well but not as light.


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## rallyrabbit

Well, the past few weeks I have been on the cheap, disappotining Tektro mini-Vs with the dual compound Kool Stop pads.

So the LBS said they had some used Avid Shorty 4 Cantilevers, and threw them on. My goodness are they worse. Stopping power is darn near dangerous on the road. And, they shudder and squeal like crazy.

So, I think with that, I am going back to V-brake and my try the TRP CX8.4 that people seem happy with and I'll dump my travel agents too


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## OnTheRivet

rallyrabbit said:


> Well, the past few weeks I have been on the cheap, disappotining Tektro mini-Vs with the dual compound Kool Stop pads.
> 
> So the LBS said they had some used Avid Shorty 4 Cantilevers, and threw them on. My goodness are they worse. Stopping power is darn near dangerous on the road. And, they shudder and squeal like crazy.
> 
> So, I think with that, I am going back to V-brake and my try the TRP CX8.4 that people seem happy with and I'll dump my travel agents too


I'm confused. You say "you'll dump the travel agent" but also say you're using"cheap tektro mini-v's". That doesn't make sense, why would you use a travel agent with mini-v's?


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## rallyrabbit

Because the mini-v's with the longer arms still give poor performance with sram levers.


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## Lazy Spinner

CX 9 or 8.4 mini V - end of discussion. I've had no issues with them on dry roads, sloppy CX mud fests, or gravel grinding. I'm so enamored of them that I see no real reason to go disc on my next CX whip.


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## rallyrabbit

That's the way I'm leaning, thanks for the opinions guys.


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## acg

TRP 8.4 with my Centaur brshifters set-up. I run them with 42mm tires. No issues at all. I love the stopping power!


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## rallyrabbit

I guess the ultimate question is. How do the TRP CX8.4 compare to Shimano in quality and setup?

My biggest complaint with using the Tektro BX3v and 926AL is that they are a complete pain to get setup because of hose the pad is drawn to the rim, because the springs are weak, the pad is never brought fully centered onto the wheel. No matter what adjustment I made, it would never last more than 1 hour. The RX5 weren't nearly as bad.

So considering I was also weighing a Shimano XT or XTR with travel agent vs the TRP CX8.4, any thoughts to that?


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## bmxhacksaw

rallyrabbit said:


> My bikes made me get rid of my wife so now I have 47 bikes and I'm much happier...


Fixed it for ya


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## GRAVELBIKE

I run RX5s on one of my bikes, and they're silent. Zero problems with springs, too. Pads are Yokozuna salmon, and levers are Campy Centaur. In dry weather they stop as well, if not better than my Avid discs.


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## AndrwSwitch

rallyrabbit said:


> My biggest complaint with using the Tektro BX3v and 926AL is that they are a complete pain to get setup because of hose the pad is drawn to the rim, because the springs are weak, the pad is never brought fully centered onto the wheel. No matter what adjustment I made, it would never last more than 1 hour. The RX5 weren't nearly as bad.


Take your bike to a shop and get some help.

Mine were set and forget. I'm studying mechanical engineering, but I'm in Systems and Controls. Not Rocket Science. I really don't think they're that hard to set up.


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## addictR1

sorry to bring this thread back to life.. but currently running sram RED shifter with my cross bike and using it with avid ultimate shorty... which is horrible. couldn't stop for the life of me.

i found this thread and saw Tektro brake mentioned. anyone know which one will work with my SRAM red shifters?


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## GRAVELBIKE

addictR1 said:


> sorry to bring this thread back to life.. but currently running sram RED shifter with my cross bike and using it with avid ultimate shorty... which is horrible. couldn't stop for the life of me.
> 
> i found this thread and saw Tektro brake mentioned. anyone know which one will work with my SRAM red shifters?


Which Tektro? If you're referring to mini-v-brakes, you want something with an arm length of 85mm (or less).


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## krisdrum

GRAVELBIKE said:


> Which Tektro? If you're referring to mini-v-brakes, you want something with an arm length of 85mm (or less).


+1. Tektro would be the 926AL or similar (look at arm length). TRP would be the 8.4s.


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## skinewmexico

Replaced my Avid Shortys with TRP CX8.4 mini-Vs. Greatest thing ever. Better braking, less hassle.


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## addictR1

Does the Tektro or TRP allow brake pad replacement? Can I slide my current pads for CF wheel on there?


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## krisdrum

addictR1 said:


> Does the Tektro or TRP allow brake pad replacement? Can I slide my current pads for CF wheel on there?


Believe TRP has replaceable pad holders. Tektros do not, but are easy enough to purchase and install if needed.


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## addictR1

Thanks krisdrum. What's the difference between TRP8.4 vs 9


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## krisdrum

addictR1 said:


> Thanks krisdrum. What's the difference between TRP8.4 vs 9


Arm length. The 9s are supposedly better paired with the newer Shimano lever pull. 8.4s for SRAM and Campy (and older Shimano, I believe).


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## GRAVELBIKE

krisdrum said:


> Arm length. The 9s are supposedly better paired with the newer Shimano lever pull. 8.4s for SRAM and Campy (and older Shimano, I believe).


Correct. Here's a table of v-brake arm lengths:
Tech Tip: V-Brake Arm Lengths | GRAVELBIKE.com


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## Corndog

krisdrum said:


> Arm length. The 9s are supposedly better paired with the newer Shimano lever pull. 8.4s for SRAM and Campy (and older Shimano, I believe).


But, they aren't better in actual use. Even the new style Shimano levers work much better with the 8.4. You still gets tons of stopping power, with better modulation and pad clearance.


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## krisdrum

Corndog said:


> But, they aren't better in actual use. Even the new style Shimano levers work much better with the 8.4. You still gets tons of stopping power, with better modulation and pad clearance.


Doesn't surprise me. I think with mini-V's, shorter arms are better. I went with an 80mm arm. Can't imagine needing more power.


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## addictR1

i went onto TRP's site and found this article:
CX9 or CX8.4...Which One Is Right For You?

In the article, the video seems to show that the 9.0 provides a closer distance to the rim to provide immediate stopping power, whereas 8.4 allows users for more adjustment and brake pad won't be as close to the rim. at least that's what i gathered from the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ze3-IBaCJE

also does longer the arm = weaker stopping power or stronger? i see the 8.4 cost more than the 9.0 version and kinda surprised by it.


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## Dream Plus

I'm using cx8.4s on my bike with MiniV's. I had issues with cantilever's on that bike. and I wanted something for when I rode trails. That said, I have Ultimate Shorty Cantilever brakes on my race bike and have zero issues with them. They modulate fine. Stop great and are more than enough for CX racing or gravel riding.


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## addictR1

I'm using that ultimate shorty now and last weekend came down the hill from a 15% grade and couldn't stop on a dime. Tried pulsating and was ok.. but if I need to press hard to stop.. it wouldnt. I even have it on narrow stance.


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## krisdrum

addictR1 said:


> i went onto TRP's site and found this article:
> CX9 or CX8.4...Which One Is Right For You?
> 
> In the article, the video seems to show that the 9.0 provides a closer distance to the rim to provide immediate stopping power, whereas 8.4 allows users for more adjustment and brake pad won't be as close to the rim. at least that's what i gathered from the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ze3-IBaCJE
> 
> also does longer the arm = weaker stopping power or stronger? i see the 8.4 cost more than the 9.0 version and kinda surprised by it.


Longer arm = more power. I think you get better modulation with a shorter arm, as the pad has a longer travel distance, giving you more nuance between full off and full on.


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## krisdrum

addictR1 said:


> I'm using that ultimate shorty now and last weekend came down the hill from a 15% grade and couldn't stop on a dime. Tried pulsating and was ok.. but if I need to press hard to stop.. it wouldnt. I even have it on narrow stance.


What pads are you running?


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## addictR1

I'm running black prince that came with my carbon wheelset.


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## krisdrum

addictR1 said:


> I'm running black prince that came with my carbon wheelset.


I'm new to the carbon game, but my impression is carbon doesn't stop on a dime. So that may be a factor of the rim not the brake.


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## addictR1

Well, I have the same set on my addict r1 with calipers and it stops on a dime. Just feels the ultimate shorty is mushy.


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## AndrwSwitch

It's all about mechanical advantage. I don't know if your cantilever brakes are set up low profile or wide. Cantilever brakes set up with a narrow profile, so relatively vertical arms for the cables, are pretty sensitive to the way the straddle cable is set up. It's less important in the wide position.

Dual-pivot sidepulls had their behavior set by the engineer, before they ever got forged. Same with mini-Vs. In general, I feel like they make good choices. Mini-Vs are a little tougher because giving them good tire clearance requires a longer arm, which means a touchier setup. That's why mountain bikes use a different amount of cable pull.

Stopping power and modulation are pretty much self-contradictory in a system with no flex. Flexy systems just suck at everything. 

Can you post a picture of your brakes? Maybe there's something that will jump out at one of us, before you get out the credit card.


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## addictR1

here are the photos of my setup. they look about right.. but how come no stopping power? i ordered the TRP 8.4 mini v, so hopefully this will solve my problem.


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## krisdrum

A bit hard to tell with smaller slicks on, but your straddle wires look long to me.

I'd try dropping the straddle holder and shortening up the wire. Of course, looks like you'll need to re-run the cable from the levers, since you don't have much room to play with below the carrier currently.


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## AndrwSwitch

^^^
Agree.

With low-profile cantilevers, the mechanical advantage comes from both arm length and mechanical advantage on the straddle cable itself. If the angle between the straddle cable and the arms is anything other than 90 degrees, the force isn't being applied in as favorable a direction. I'd try to hit that when they're applied. So it'll be less when you're not squeezing the brake. Sometimes the tire interferes with being able to set up a cantilever brake that way, which is why Vs were such a big deal when they came out for mountain bikes.


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## pretender

+2

Another disadvantage of high straddle on the low-pro cantis is that the pull-ratio actually changes over the range of the lever pull. One season I ran my straddle really high and it made braking exciting. I've discovered that low-pro cantis with low straddle cable have plenty of rim clearance and braking is superior.


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## Richard L

I sprung for Paul's Mini-V's for my new bike, and really like them. They were easy to set up, came stock with Kool-Stop Salmon pads, and work great. Paul also makes a standard length v-brake, and two different canti models. Yeh, I know they are expensive.

Paul Component Engineering


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## changingleaf

The Euro style, wide canti's have very weak braking power. All the local cross racers have switched to cantilevers or mini-v's. Having a very true wheel is necessary for the mini-v's and the mud clearance isn't much, but the guys that I race with (non-pro) prefer the breaking power to more mud clearance. Of course disc brake riders are approaching 50% of the field now.


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## ZoomBoy

Richard L said:


> I sprung for Paul's Mini-V's for my new bike, and really like them. They were easy to set up, came stock with Kool-Stop Salmon pads, and work great. Paul also makes a standard length v-brake, and two different canti models. Yeh, I know they are expensive.
> 
> Paul Component Engineering


I run Paul Neo-Retros with Kool-Stop Salmon pads and have no complaints about them at all. Plenty of power/modulation when needed in most conditions.


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## addictR1

changingleaf: I went with the shorty because I can set it with narrow stance for better braking power. But notice coming downhill the braking is not always there.  

I got some new pads for my cf rim and will try that out and see if that improves it.


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## krisdrum

addictR1 said:


> changingleaf: I went with the shorty because I can set it with narrow stance for better braking power. But notice coming downhill the braking is not always there.
> 
> I got some new pads for my cf rim and will try that out and see if that improves it.


Hope you got those straddle wires down a bit , in adition to trying some new pads.


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## addictR1

I'm going to try it first as is to see if it's the pad issue, then readjust the straddle wires and retest again. 

update: i changed to a different brake pad (blue) which was also recommended by the CF mfg and readjusted the straddle cable and lower the holder so the straddle cable and the canti brakes are now more 90° angle. 

right away, felt a big difference. it's very grabby now and will test it on the road tomorrow.

readjusted front








readjusted back








original black pads.. now looks like crap after 100 miles. brake track is still good.


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## lml999

rallyrabbit said:


> Hi guys, I've poured through as much data on bikeforums.net and roadbikeform trying to get anything that might help me.
> 
> My wife made me get rid of my bikes and allowed me one (small house)...
> 
> (Stuff Snipped)
> Any opinions?


How long have you been married? 

In my house, multiple bikes is a non-negotiable term of our relationship. My wife occasionally questions a new bike "when did you get that one" or "I don't remember that bike, is it new?". And to be honest, the basement is teeming with bikes and wheelsets (which does make it easier for another to blend in.)

We just celebrated our 28th anniversary...and only because we both listen more than we talk. It took me a long while to figure that out...

Just explain to her the N+1 theory of bike ownership. I'm sure that will go over well.


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## lml999

krisdrum said:


> Believe TRP has replaceable pad holders. Tektros do not, but are easy enough to purchase and install if needed.


Yes, standard Shimano road pad shape. Swisstop BXPs rock.


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## Richard L

Here's a link to Shimano's website with their CX70 and CX50 cantilever brakes. No experience with them.

CX70 and CX50


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## tednugent

krisdrum said:


> Believe TRP has replaceable pad holders. Tektros do not, but are easy enough to purchase and install if needed.


Tektro CR720 does.
Tektro CR710 does not.
Tektro Mini-V does not (but you can get the Kool Stop Cross Pad/holder, which uses Dura Ace inserts, which is what I have on my mini-V)


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## ozbikebuddy

it now: N+1 where it < D (where d =divorce)


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