# Stage 12: Bourg-de-Péage to Mende - 210 km



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

I'm gonna confess here: I didn't watch the entire stage. I read about the live finish on CyclingNews and just _had _to see the end. Then I read the fate of Renshaw, and knew the rest of the stage would be dull to watch.

So, Saxo ratched up the pace and were almost able to create a break. That would have been incredible. From what I saw of the stage, it looked like they were going 35-40mph for a long while. Ouch. And then the sprint finish.
All season long Renshaw had complained that he should be the lead sprinter. He had trouble proving his point during the Giro, especially as Cavs was mopping up on his own in other races. When the Tour came around, it seemed the pecking order had been re-established and Renshaw would be the leadout. After blowing at least one leadout (going too soon), they started to click and Cavs was tied with Petacchi and Chavanel with two stage wins. The Boy Racer desperately wanted to add another set of crossed samurai swords to his top tube, and Stage 11 would be the last good chance for quite some time (I think Stage 13 will go to a breakaway - possibly Chavanel or Flecha). Even with all the bodies in the final runup, the lead out looked strong. Then Renshaw went Mel Gibson.
A few headbutts to one Garmin rider, then almost checking Tyler nearly into the boards. I thought Rocket Robbie had switched teams mid-stage. In a post-stage interview he talked about how he is viewed as the cleanest sprinter, and he didn't know what people were complaining about. But he did it with waht I perceived as a smirk. With my foil hat on, part of me thinks he did it on purpose, hoping to get sent home and leaving Cavs without his leadout skills for the rest of the race. "Yeah, Cavs is good...When I'm there for him."
Oh, and Thor lost the Green to Petacchi. 

But now we are on to Stage 12. Back to a hillier stage, and I think I heard the steepest climb of the tour. We go Cat3, Cat3, Srint, Cat2, Cat3, Sprint, Cat2. Thor has been known to go out and pacman the sprint points, even in the mountains, but I think Petacchi can follow him. Plus, Cervelo might still think Sastre can podium, and the next day might be easier for Thor. If it is true and the steepest stage takes place here, I could see Contador working with Andy a bit, then drill him to psychologically beat him. 

The final peak is named after Jalabert. Bastille day didn't go to a Frenchman, will Chavanel try to strike out today? Possibly.Hondo? Pineau is only ahead by 2 points...I say Cungeo and Egoi strike out ahead and Egoi gets it.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

weltyed said:


> All season long Renshaw had complained that he should be the lead sprinter. He had trouble proving his point during the Giro, especially as Cavs was mopping up on his own in other races. When the Tour came around, it seemed the pecking order had been re-established and Renshaw would be the leadout.


Renshaw wasn't racing the Giro this year, he was helping Cav at Tour of California at the time, and I don't remember him ever complaining about being lead-out for Cav. Are you thinking about Greipel, perhaps?


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Will go to a breakaway, but the real action will be the Schleck-Contador fight to the top with 2nd tier GC hopefuls Menchov, S. Sanchez, Van de Broeck trying to fight it out for a podium shot. Contador will need to use this short steep climb to chip away some time, but will not get enough to take yellow, which suits him just fine. Gap will fall to just 20 seconds.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

55x11 said:


> Renshaw wasn't racing the Giro this year, he was helping Cav at Tour of California at the time, and I don't remember him ever complaining about being lead-out for Cav. Are you thinking about Greipel, perhaps?


I think he must mean Greipel. Renshaw knows his place as leadout man. Greipel has wanted to be the number 1 sprinter for HTC last year as well.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I bet the early miles will be brutal fast, since the green jersey contenders will want those points and won't want to let each other get in the break. 

And +1 for the break staying away, but the real action with be Conti and Schleck, testing each other on the steep parts. 

I did a lot of Google street-viewing of this stage; it's up and down all day with skinny twisty roads; lots of opportunities for random TdF craziness to happen.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

How bout a shot in the dark. Chris Horner.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I was gonna say Lance Armstrong but that gradient looks too steep. What the hell, I'll go for big Tex. Lance for the win.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

dougydee said:


> I think he must mean Greipel. Renshaw knows his place as leadout man. Greipel has wanted to be the number 1 sprinter for HTC last year as well.


holy cow, do i feel feel stupid. yeah, im thinking greipel. renshaw has been cavs final leadout man pretty much all season. 

egg, meet face.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

interesting stage developing here. Saxo bank letting the head rule the heart..let the jersey go for the moment untill the pyrenees.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

No clue.

But coffee swilling has commenced here at casa oeh. 

Enjoy the race y'all. If we're lucky, there'll be a five or six riders left at the end who haven't been crashed out, flatted out, or thrown out.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> If we're lucky, there'll be a five or six riders left at the end who haven't been crashed out, flatted out, or thrown out.


Laugh out loud. (Lance says I can't use LOL)


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## clonechemist (Sep 8, 2006)

Go Thor!


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

yep, he got some points for the green jersey ealier on, a good days work whatever happens 

also Kloden [RS], Vino, Hesjedal in the break, if they want to keep the jersey saxo bank have ride, if they continue to chase they are using silly energy keeping a jersey for the next few days before the pyrenees, when they actually will need to work and keep it..and for good reason then, now not so much


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

weltyed said:


> holy cow, do i feel feel stupid. yeah, im thinking greipel. renshaw has been cavs final leadout man pretty much all season.
> 
> *egg, meet face*.



Would it make you feel better if we throw pie instead?


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## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Hesjedal is now in 3rd place GC on the road. Go Ryder!


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Did you see the photographer with the double lens camera?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

TmaxR said:


> Hesjedal is now in 3rd place GC on the road. Go Ryder!



Would be cool if a relative unkown could podium (and redeem Garmin in the process) but I don't think it'll happen with the Pyrenees looming.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

I love it when Sean Kelly talks about his riding career. Just said he won a food mixer for his first international victory in Montreal. when he sat on a break and took the sprint, and "it's still going."


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## Geoffersonspin (Feb 12, 2010)

Farrar abandoned? =,(


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Farrar abandons? That surprises.


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

Tyler Farrar abandoned?

WTF?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

harlond said:


> Farrar abandons? That surprises.



Well there goes the neighborhood. What next? 

   


This race stinks.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I figure some pure climbers deep down in the GC will be allowed a generous leash and may take it to the finish. Schleck and Contador will probably try to establish enough ground between them and the #3 spot. 

No clue who will be gunning for that #3 spot, but I could see something happening in that department today. 




harlond said:


> Farrar abandons? That surprises.


I wonder why. Sure he lost Hunter, but Cav lost Renshaw. Sad.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

IMHO Phil and Paul including the editors were irresponsible in their announcement of Tylers withdraw. The cut to Cav who gave the cut across the throat gesture and mentioned that that was his reaction on the announcement. Cav was just saying that he was not up to the intense pace the peloton was setting... (he was off the back)


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

spade2you said:


> I figure some pure climbers deep down in the GC will be allowed a generous leash and may take it to the finish. Schleck and Contador will probably try to establish enough ground between them and the #3 spot.
> 
> No clue who will be gunning for that #3 spot, but I could see something happening in that department today.
> 
> ...



He was fairly miffed yesterday, Dean was not. Wonder if there are some internal issues at play. Whatever it is, whether fact or not, I wouldn't be surprised if it's written off to tweaking too hard his wrist fracture yesterday and reinjuring himself.

My prediction, Dean will be riding for HTC next year.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

penn_rider said:


> IMHO Phil and Paul including the editors were irresponsible in their announcement of Tylers withdraw. The cut to Cav who gave the cut across the throat gesture and mentioned that that was his reaction on the announcement. Cav was just saying that he was not up to the intense pace the peloton was setting... (he was off the back)


What P&P are talking about has no effect on what we see. The video feed comes from the TdF not VS. P&P had no idea they were going to cut to Cav.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

I did not say VS,,, however it was what they said when that image came up...


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Conti has gaped Andy


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

VINO attacks!


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

penn_rider said:


> IMHO Phil and Paul including the editors were irresponsible in their announcement of Tylers withdraw. *The cut to Cav who gave the cut across the throat gesture and mentioned that that was his reaction on the announcement*. Cav was just saying that he was not up to the intense pace the peloton was setting... (he was off the back)



That ticked me off. Pure sensationalism and spin. Gag.


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## rhauft (Aug 8, 2006)

Forget the race, lets take a minute and talk about that 3pc. bottle...


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

NNOOOOOO!!!!!! ANDY!!!!! Go man GO!


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Brutal hill! 

And look at the little feller in blue go.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

took only one attack to know who's the strongest


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

rhauft said:


> Forget the race, lets take a minute and talk about that 3pc. bottle...


I wish I had thought of that. Really clever. You can get it at...blah blah blah


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

Contador stamping authority on the peloton!


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Levi came in only 18 seconds back. Did he move up in GC?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Oh jeeze. If Contador is going to pass his teammate in the final, he had better win the damn stage.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Andy got a late jump,,, crap.. but only 10 sec lost to ac


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Surprised Levi was just a few seconds off. Really great ride by him. 


Vino's handlebar slap? Hmmmmm....


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## Geoffersonspin (Feb 12, 2010)

Whoa. I was not expecting that. I wonder how Vino feels about what just happened. I really thought he was expecting to get the stage win, but maybe that was all planned to make AC's attack unexpected. Fun finish there.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

mohair_chair said:


> Oh jeeze. If Contador is going to pass his teammate in the final, he had better win the damn stage.



No doubt... Vino has to be pissed...


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

no, Contador saw Rodriguez and VDB on the attack and he jumped on it. Vino was already cooked.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Cont was just showing Vino who's boss.


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## Oracle7775 (Sep 16, 2009)

Schleck seemed to have been caught totally flat-footed there at the end. Good move by Conti to use the element of surprise and get ten seconds back.

I wish I could accellerate like that on a climb. Yow.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

mohair_chair said:


> Oh jeeze. If Contador is going to pass his teammate in the final, he had better win the damn stage.


Nonsense.


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

jd3 said:


> Cont was just showing Vino who's boss.


Seriously, AC is just a total ass. He didn't even have the decency to wait until/if Vino got caught. And then Schleck got what was coming from AC... all I can say is Stage 10.


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## g29er (Mar 28, 2009)

Contador is coming into form. IMHO when Contador is on he is on, and I dont really think that Andy will be able to keep up with Contador's attacks for too long. 

Contador will be in Yellow by Tuesday.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

RS had several high placing riders. I really didn't notice what Caisse did. I wonder if RS took over the team lead.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*well done finish by conti*

contador showed some stuff today.
this post starts with weltyed predicting:
"I could see Contador working with Andy a bit, then drill him to psychologically beat him."
--it looked like that. Toward the end, Contador saw the time to make some more progress on the GC, but saw he there was no way to beat Rodriguez in a head-to-head sprint for the finish - so Conti got pimped by Rod toward the lien, at which point Conti knew he would put the nail in the coffin if he could hang on Rodriguez' wheel for a few strokes.

No shame on Conti for getting 2nd not 1st today. I think he achieved both physical and psychological work.

Man, it would have been cool to have Frank Schleck up there today.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

pretender said:


> Nonsense.


Maybe, but I saw Vino pounding his bars in the background as Rodriguez took the win.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Andy was not smiling much on the podium.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

thesmokingman said:


> Seriously, AC is just a total ass. He didn't even have the decency to wait until/if Vino got caught. And then Schleck got what was coming from AC... all I can say is Stage 10.


Vino was so clearly done had AC waited til he got caught there would have been other riders up the road and the opportunity to attack AS would have passed. You have to strike while the iron is hot.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

the end of this will be very interesting to watch. from the read it sounded like vino might have had the stage, but conti jumped to lose andy. in doing so he towed the eventual winner up to, and ultimately past, vino. vino is the new kloden to AC?

like i said, i havent seen it yet, just read it. someone mentioned a handlebatr slap. not sure if that would be directed at vino himself for not gutting it out or against AC for teh move. i know you scrape for seconds here or there, but we have all seen andy TT vs Conti. what was astana's overall goal leading into that final climb? stage win? more time for AC? what was the priority?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

pretender said:


> Nonsense.


Well, then don't waste Vino trying. You either try to win the stage or you don't, but you don't put a lot of effort into giving it away.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

harlond said:


> I love it when Sean Kelly talks about his riding career. Just said he won a food mixer for his first international victory in Montreal. when he sat on a break and took the sprint, and "it's still going."


Yeah, that was awesome.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

pretender said:


> Nonsense.



It may be just the threads I see, but it seems you have a persistent habit of popping in behind people and "correcting them".

You win this year's Urkel Award.


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

32and3cross said:


> Vino was so clearly done had AC waited til he got caught there would have been other riders up the road and the opportunity to attack AS would have passed. You have to strike while the iron is hot.


Really? He was toast eh? He was 6 seconds ahead of the next group and only 4 behind AC. And what was he striking? Anyone who is anyone is already way over 2 minutes behind, WTH is 10 seconds when there's a huge TT to come and the rest of the mountains. WTH is gaining 10 seconds here at the expense of your teammate in the scope of what's to come yet?


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

harlond said:


> Maybe, but I saw Vino pounding his bars in the background as Rodriguez took the win.


Probably mad at himself for cracking.

A win wasn't in the cards for Astana today. Contador maybe (maybe) could have won the stage if he had forced Rodriguez to do some work (i.e. if he had sat up), but his priority was putting time into Schleck.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

32and3cross said:


> Vino was so clearly done had AC waited til he got caught there would have been other riders up the road and the opportunity to attack AS would have passed. You have to strike while the iron is hot.


Plus, Rodriguez was up the road. Tough spot for AC, on the one hand he was able to reach Rodriguez without bringing anyone along. But on the other, he went to the front and brought Rodriguez up to Vino and then wasn't able to take the win. When you're GC, you gotta take time when you can, but far from an ideal outcome for Astana.


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## Comer (Jan 13, 2009)

If Armstrong would've made the same move as AC most of you guys on here would be going ape-**** bagging on him. It's amusing to watch some justify AC attacking his own man up the road.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Contador has always been brutal, the steeper the grade. 

Look at the profiles for the climbs in the Pyrennes..........and unless Andy has a trick up his sleeve, he is going to be playing Ulrich to Contador's Armstrong.

I also saw LA lost another 3 1/2 minutes....any story there, or just saving himself?

As to Vino/Contador, based on the description I read, Contador had a chance to put time in Andy, he has to take that.

Len


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Comer said:


> If Armstrong would've made the same move as AC most of you guys on here would be going ape-**** bagging on him. It's amusing to watch some justify AC attacking his own man up the road.


Also amusing to remember the ongoing speculation whether Vino would support AC, and now we're debating whether AC hosed Vino. You never know.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Comer said:


> If Armstrong would've made the same move as AC most of you guys on here would be going ape-**** bagging on him. It's amusing to watch some justify AC attacking his own man up the road.


If there were any need for Contador to justify his actions, it would simply be:

_5. Andy Schleck, Team Saxo Bank, at 00:10_

People seem to have forgotten that Schleck is still leading Contador in the GC. This is a genuine bike race, there's no guarantee that Contador will win.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Contador clearly wanted Vino to win the stage. Caught between team loyalty and the need to put time into Schleck, he fell between 2 stools. By dawdling at the end he only gained 10 instead of 20 seconds.

Great ride by Vino - the guy is a Star.........and a bit of a Nut - his work in the breakaway brought Saxobank to its knees. They were shattered. Brilliant support for Contador.


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

pretender said:


> If there were any need for Contador to justify his actions, it would simply be:
> 
> _5. Andy Schleck, Team Saxo Bank, at 00:10_
> 
> People seem to have forgotten that Schleck is still leading Contador in the GC. This is a genuine bike race, there's no guarantee that Contador will win.


But since AC has a superior TT, most estimate him putting 2 minutes into Schleck, why screw his teammate for 10 clicks now.

I can see attacking if it means putting Andy completely away but 40 seconds or 30 seconds seem to be the same thing right now.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

pretender said:


> People seem to have forgotten that Schleck is still leading Contador in the GC. This is a genuine bike race, there's no guarantee that Contador will win.


Given that there is no guarantee that Contador will win, a stage win would sure be nice for Astana, and it was theirs for the taking. But they don't even have that now. Stupid.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

While I think it's crappy to attack your own teammate, the simple fact is it worked for AC. He put 11 seconds into AS and in this case the end justifies the means. I don't think Vino had the fire power at the end and somebody else would have gone off the front and caught him anyway.


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

Comer said:


> If Armstrong would've made the same move as AC most of you guys on here would be going ape-**** bagging on him. It's amusing to watch some justify AC attacking his own man up the road.


Agreed this was a bad move by Contador from a team standpoint. Sure he gained 10 seconds and I know some is dying to mention the Lemond victory margin over Fignon but blowing out a teammate and not winning a stage = bad move.

I hope Vino takes a wheel to Contador's head :idea:


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Didn't Vino.*

kinda stick it to Conti on stage 3? Maybe it was a little bit of payback for him gapping him out? Either way, I don't think Vino would've won.. I think Rodriguez would've caught him.. It would've surely been close though.. 

I think LA is in Simoni mode.. IE: Chilling and enjoying his last race.. Will he work for Levi in the future.. We'll see...


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## mangotreat0808 (Sep 4, 2006)

links on footage of the last kilometers of stage 12?


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

Comer said:


> If Armstrong would've made the same move as AC most of you guys on here would be going ape-**** bagging on him. It's amusing to watch some justify AC attacking his own man up the road.


It's amusing how this became about Lance Armstrong again.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

So I didn't watch the stage, and I'm no expert, but isn't it possible that Contador bridged to Vino on the assumption that 2 Astana riders in front at the end increases the odds that the team will win, but then when he got there, Vino couldn't go with him?

Also, when a rider comes back from a breakaway, he then can help pace his GC man along (see Jens doing this for Andy a couple of days ago). Why couldn't this work the other way? Contador bridges to Vino, and then they ride together with one of them hopefully taking the stage.

Isn't it possible that one of these things happened? Meanwhile, putting time into Andy and doubt into his head is a good thing as the goal is to win the stage.

Granted, the stage win didn't come, but to jump right to "Contador attacked his teammate" might be ignoring a couple of other possibilities.


Contador won his first TDF by 23 seconds. If you think he doesn't treasure every second he can get out there, you're crazy.


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## Ejdo (Mar 14, 2010)

I think AC just wanted to gain a few seconds on Schleck as it may come down to that in the end. Also, he was probably looking at the move as a way to show Schleck just how much power he has. A lot of this is a mental game and AC is just playing right now.

As for Armstrong, I can't help but think he has given up some. I understand no longer riding with the front but at least keep up with the main group. Have some pride in yourself and go out with your head held high. If he doesn't win a couple stages this year or at least help Levi get on the podium it will be like Jordan playing for the Wizards.


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## Ejdo (Mar 14, 2010)

PhatTalc said:


> It's amusing how this became about Lance Armstrong again.


I know Lance isn't going for the GC but lets face it, the man has won 7 times. Going with the Michael Jordan reference, even though the Wizards were never a threat to win a championship people still talked about Jordan and wanted see what he would do. Older or not, you never know when something great may happen.


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## mangotreat0808 (Sep 4, 2006)

here's the link (answered my question - 

Looks like Rod was too much of a sprinter on that flattish section after that short but brutal climb. But AC did climb that last hill with a grimace, carving into the 41-sec deficit. It was like watching the NBA, Vino being the point guard passing the ball to AC, the (small) power forward who drives to the ring and makes the dunk..well almost made the dunk since Rod still won the stage, but 10 seconds is 10 seconds.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

mohair_chair said:


> Given that there is no guarantee that Contador will win, a stage win would sure be nice for Astana, and it was theirs for the taking. But they don't even have that now. Stupid.


Rodriguez attacked and AC followed him. Then when AS couldn't go with the pace, he had to keep going. Astana's goal for this tour is to win it. If AC can take time, he should do it. Maybe it's a shame for Vino, maybe it isn't. But frankly, it's irrelevant to AC winning the tour.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

MattSoutherden said:


> Rodriguez attacked and AC followed him. Then when AS couldn't go with the pace, he had to keep going. Astana's goal for this tour is to win it. If AC can take time, he should do it. Maybe it's a shame for Vino, maybe it isn't. But frankly, it's irrelevant to AC winning the tour.


Once AC went, Vino had no chance. Forget about him. Which means AC should have finished the stage by winning it. I don't understand why people keep harping on the fact that he picked up time. That's completely irrelevant. AC's choice wasn't between winning the stage OR picking up the time. He gets the time either way. The only choice he had to make was whether he wanted to finish first or second, and he chose second.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I just want to thank Weltyed for some great pre-stage commentary. It has been informative and often prophetic. I missed stage 12 due to some international travel, but in checking in, I can read the details above and then get a feel for how the stage turned out. 

Thanks!


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

mohair_chair said:


> The only choice he had to make was whether he wanted to finish first or second, and he chose second.


He did not chose second - it was pretty clear from the coverage that he tried to win the sprint but failed. Contador could do with a stage win.

IMHO, Rodriguez would have easily beaten Vino even if Contador had not countered and assisted. Also, I think Vino was banging the bars because Astana did not get the win, not because he specifically did not get the win. It appeared to me that Vino did what he could to help Contador as he came by, but he didn't have enough left.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

ukbloke said:


> He did not chose second - it was pretty clear from the coverage that he tried to win the sprint but failed. Contador could do with a stage win.
> 
> IMHO, Rodriguez would have easily beaten Vino even if Contador had not countered and assisted. Also, I think Vino was banging the bars because Astana did not get the win, not because he specifically did not get the win. It appeared to me that Vino did what he could to help Contador as he came by, but he didn't have enough left.


The question is whether AC would have had enough left to win the stage if, knowing he had a teammate up the road, AC had sat on Rodriguez, as would generally be expected in this situation, rather than pull Rodriguez up to Vino. He got 10 seconds, and that's obviously good, but he got them by attacking his own teammate, and that's obviously bad. It's less bad if AC wins the stage. In the long run, the good may outweigh the bad, but in the short run, questions about whether AC made the right decision to chase down his own teammate are certainly legitimate.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

harlond said:


> The question is whether AC would have had enough left to win the stage if, knowing he had a teammate up the road, AC had sat on Rodriguez, as would generally be expected in this situation, rather than pull Rodriguez up to Vino.


Got it - good points, thanks for the explanation!


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

harlond said:


> The question is whether AC would have had enough left to win the stage if, knowing he had a teammate up the road, AC had sat on Rodriguez, as would generally be expected in this situation, rather than pull Rodriguez up to Vino. He got 10 seconds, and that's obviously good, but he got them by attacking his own teammate, and that's obviously bad. It's less bad if AC wins the stage. In the long run, the good may outweigh the bad, but in the short run, questions about whether AC made the right decision to chase down his own teammate are certainly legitimate.


So, I'll have to watch the replay but Velonews says "Contador abruptly rocketed out of the yellow-jersey group *in response to an attack by Rodriguez*. The two *quickly caught and dropped* the Kazakh, and fought it out for the stage win, Rodriguez crossing the line first."

This is quite different from your description of the event.

Did he respond and then go around him?

I suppose you could argue that if he had wheel sucked him, then MAYBE Vino would have survived, but this certainly doesn't sound like he "pulled Rodriguez up to Vino."

By the way, Contador said, "The team did a great job today. I am only sorry Vinokourov couldn’t win," but that's probably just immaterial spin.


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

:confused5: 

Why did Contador need to respond to the attack by Rodrgiuez? He's not a GC contender. 

He should have let Rodriguez go and left it up to Vinokourov to win or lose the stage.

I think the etiquette here is missing. This isn't the same as "no gifts" scenario as Contador had a teammate who had a shot to win the stage. 

Vinokourov put in a lot of work today to get a stage win and he was unjustly usurped by a team leader out for stage glory.

The 10 seconds was not worth potential animosity of a teammate.

There wasn't really a point to the attack, imo.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

thesmokingman said:


> Really? He was toast eh? He was 6 seconds ahead of the next group and only 4 behind AC. And what was he striking? Anyone who is anyone is already way over 2 minutes behind, WTH is 10 seconds when there's a huge TT to come and the rest of the mountains. WTH is gaining 10 seconds here at the expense of your teammate in the scope of what's to come yet?


I agree with all of the above, good post.


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## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Hmm. A lot of people down on Contador. For what? Racing? Or not being a gentleman? As I see it, Rodriguez attacked and Contador followed. When he saw Schleck couldn't respond, he seized the opportunity and pressed the attack. The Yellow jersey is on Schleck, remember? Contador should abandon the opportunity to take time so that Vinokourov might have a better chance of winning the stage? I don't think so. The number one goal is to win the Tour. To suggest that he should not take the opportunity because he can get the time he needs in the time trial is foolish. No one can predict the future. What if Schleck attacks on the Tourmelet and Contador can't follow? The point is, every second counts, especially when you are behind in the race. Vino made a valiant effort, but just didn't have enough to finish it off. Like Contador, I am sorry for that, but it is not Contador's fault.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

TmaxR said:


> Hmm. A lot of people down on Contador. For what? Racing? Or not being a gentleman? As I see it, Rodriguez attacked and Contador followed. When he saw Schleck couldn't respond, he seized the opportunity and pressed the attack. The Yellow jersey is on Schleck, remember? Contador should abandon the opportunity to take time so that Vinokourov might have a better chance of winning the stage? I don't think so. The number one goal is to win the Tour. To suggest that he should not take the opportunity because he can get the time he needs in the time trial is foolish. No one can predict the future. What if Schleck attacks on the Tourmelet and Contador can't follow? The point is, every second counts, especially when you are behind in the race. Vino made a valiant effort, but just didn't have enough to finish it off. Like Contador, I am sorry for that, but it is not Contador's fault.


Well sure, if you put it like that.

But Vino looked really thirsty on that last hill. Contador should have given him his water bottle. What a selfish prima donna!


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

First Cav and now Contador! This should be known as the Sour Grapes Forum.

Get over it folks - Farrar has gone home to his Mummy and Lance has lost heart.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

jptaylorsg said:


> So, I'll have to watch the replay but Velonews says "Contador abruptly rocketed out of the yellow-jersey group *in response to an attack by Rodriguez*. The two *quickly caught and dropped* the Kazakh, and fought it out for the stage win, Rodriguez crossing the line first."
> 
> This is quite different from your description of the event.
> 
> ...


Contador led much or most of the way up to Vino.




LesDiablesRouges said:


> Why did Contador need to respond to the attack by Rodrgiuez? He's not a GC contender.
> 
> He should have let Rodriguez go and left it up to Vinokourov to win or lose the stage.
> 
> ...


Disagree. Vino was out in the break all day. No point in letting a fresher guy chase him down if you can come along for the ride without bringing along other guys. And AC achieved that, he got up to Rodriguez without brnging anyone else along. AC is a good teammate to this point. Typically you would expect AC to sit on Rodriguez, keeping himself as fresh as possible, and make Rodriguez do the work of chasing AC's teammate down. But instead AC goes to the front and himself leads the chase up to Vino. We'll be calling AC a genius if he wins the Tour by 5 seconds, but seems pretty clear he reduced the team's chances of taking the stage victory by chasing down his own teammate.


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## mangotreat0808 (Sep 4, 2006)

*So let me get this straight guys n gals..*

You're behind by 41 seconds, your biggest competition has been able to stay with you consistently, meaning that the 41-second constant would most likely remain the same for a while. Then you accelerate, you see that your nearest competitor for the overall tour win wasn't able to respond, you gap him, and you see your best domestique, Vino. Your question now is (1) Should I capitalize on this opportunity to carve in to my 41 sec deficit, (2) Should I sit in and let Vino continue his pace and hopefully he crosses the line before Rod. Option 2 to me means I have to rely on what Vino has left - if he can follow me on my wheel, then all good, I'll let him win the stage, but then you still had to contend with the Rodriguez factor, which means Vino's stage win is not guaranteed. The other risk is that Shleck could potentially close in on my gap, since he has done this meticulously up to this point, which could leave that 41-second constant unchanged. I know AC is no gambler, he seems pretty conservative, which is why he chose option 1, since this would at least guarantee deficit reduction, and option 2 would present the two risks mentioned. Just some 2c thoughts.


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

Just watched the replay of the final 6k. Definitely looked like Vino's Stage until the attack from Rodriguez and then Contador. 

Contador simply is not so cocky as to rely on his time trialing abilities. This is a long race. "Every second counts" etc....


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

Rolando said:


> Just watched the replay of the final 6k. Definitely looked like Vino's Stage until the attack from Rodriguez and then Contador.
> 
> Contador simply is not so cocky as to rely on his time trialing abilities. This is a long race. "Every second counts" etc....


Has nothing to do with TT abilities but rather not letting a teammate have the opportunity to win a stage ...


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## Mordy (Aug 30, 2006)

During our interoffice discussion the probability was raised that Vino might have realized he was toast and relayed it to the team that he might not beat Kloden or another strong rider that could attack. And thus when Rodriguez took off it was obvious that Contador could both gain time on AS and go for the win.


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