# Road race - who the heck is pulling 23+mph???



## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

There's always snarky comments on the board about how "everyone on the internet avg's 20+mph"...

Well, I am now consistently averaging ~20.5mph on relatively flat courses, riding solo, anywhere from 10-25 miles. Just had a triathlon split for 17 miles at 22.2mph on my regular road bike setup. Drafted a little for about 1/4 of it...

All the road races (30+miles) in my area for Cat4/5 and Cat5 avg just over 23mph... 

I want to know how many of you can really avg that speed solo or pull for long stretches at that pace during races??? There's obviously a couple guys that can sit out front and pull like that. It's fairly impressive to me to lead races at that speed... I'm not close to that yet, still riding alloy clinchers...

In your experiences, what % of the people in this race class can pull those speeds for extended periods? Is it just a couple of dudes setting the pace and then the rest of us wheelsuckers???


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Masters and 1/2/3 races in the NYC area average 26-27.5MPH. Average distance 40+ miles. If you are in a break that is going to stay away yes you are pulling at that speed or higher. That said you are taking short pulls and rotating. I ride in these races and generally finish in the front 1/3 of the pack. I can not go out and do an hour ride anywhere close to those speeds though.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sonomasnap said:


> Masters and 1/2/3 races in the NYC area average 26-27.5MPH. Average distance 40+ miles. If you are in a break that is going to stay away yes you are pulling at that speed or higher. That said you are taking short pulls and rotating. I ride in these races and generally finish in the front 1/3 of the pack. I can not go out and do an hour ride anywhere close to those speeds though.


Exactly. Teams out here regularly do averages above 25mph on the flats. I don't race but I can pull in a 6+ group at 23+mph for a couple minutes at a time. Then recover at the end of the line. I believe the number is that it is ~30% easier to be in the draft, so you are doing significantly less work when off the front.


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

The last crit I did for 12 miles was around a 25mph avg. About 8 of us in a paceline off the front, but it was really only 1 or 2 guys rotating on the front...not a true rotating paceline. I could hang on the flats at that pace... 

I guess Im wondering if the guys that are leading these races can just go out and ride at 23mph for an hour... I would have to assume going over a 25mph avg there has to be rotating on the front and guys working together.


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## tiflow_21 (Nov 21, 2005)

clones2 said:


> There's always snarky comments on the board about how "everyone on the internet avg's 20+mph"...
> 
> Well, I am now consistently averaging ~20.5mph on relatively flat courses, riding solo, anywhere from 10-25 miles. Just had a triathlon split for 17 miles at 22.2mph on my regular road bike setup. Drafted a little for about 1/4 of it...
> 
> ...


10 to 25 miles is fairly short. Our weekly hammerfest is just under 50 miles, for the fast ~40 miles it's fairly normal for the group to avg 25-28 mph. There are a number of guys in the group that could probably sustain 23 mph for the entire ride if they wanted, which allows us to sustain higher speeds while working together. The key is working together, which doesn't always happen on hammerfest drop rides. There are far too many other factors to take into account aside from mph alone when trying to see how you stack up against others. MPH on the exact same route (also assuming the same wind) would be much more meaningful. In other words there's no magical number that indicates you will or won't be able to hang with guys in a race, many times being able to accelerate repeatedly makes as much or more of the difference than being able to sustain a consistent average. You can't always sit at threshold or just below in a race or group ride, you're at the mercy of whoever decides to attack, the wind, your position, etc.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

My last 20K ITT I averaged just under 28.2 mph and hope to average around that (or better) next week in a 40K ITT (That's very flat).

On a group ride a few weeks back to get in a good 20 minute interval on a flat part of the ride I sat on the front of the group and pulled at 25 mph for 20 minutes sitting just below threshold power for the duration.

In an actual race...I'd never do that as it would be a stupid waste of energy...unless I was near the end and on a break away going for the win.

Most of my training rides I only average around 18-20 mph though. You have to factor in climbing when you look at average speed. When you see group rides that average mid 20 mph range they are super flat rides and likely have less than 1000 feet of climbing over 50 miles...Factor in another 4000 feet of climbing and those speed numbers drop rapidly.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> I guess Im wondering if the guys that are leading these races can just go out and ride at 23mph for an hour... I would have to assume going over a 25mph avg there has to be rotating on the front and guys working together.


A good time trialist will be able to do a 40k Merckx style (no areo aids) in under an hour. Basically 25 mph for an hour, no drafting. In most states to win higher categories and masters with the full aero set ups you'll need to average over 30mph for a 40k time trial.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

There's always a few sand baggers in the Cat5 fields around my area...guys that were 3s a couple years ago and let their license lapse, guys that race infrequently and never upgrade, etc. Not unusual to see 4 or 5 guys do the lion's share of the work in a 5s race. Just sit in near the front and if you end up pulling take a quick one and than fall back in, staying in the top 15 or so. I know Cat 5s that could probably hold a high average in a TT or a training ride but never win any races, and I know Cat 2s that probably average less than 20 mph on their training rides and don't really ever enter time trials or launch solo break aways.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

Average speed really varies by situation, as described above.

For me, most my solo riding averages around 17mph (lots of zone 2). Could be a little higher but I have to climb a 500 foot straight up climb to my house every ride, and then cool down. 

When I race the higher categories (Master 1-2-3, and local crit "A" flights), it's those 30s to one minute brutal accelerations that kill. If I could average 500W for one minute, and do it several times, then it would make the difference between staying and popping off. Most times I pop off. In these race situations, average speed is really meaningless (even though it's still pretty high).


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

clones2 said:


> I want to know how many of you can really avg that speed solo or pull for long stretches at that pace during races??? There's obviously a couple guys that can sit out front and pull like that. It's fairly impressive to me to lead races at that speed... I'm not close to that yet, still riding *alloy clinchers*...


they're not holding you back...


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

Depends on the race. Here they are ether dead flat or have massive climbs. The last flat race I did I pulled at 37mph to close a brake. Then I popped and ended up riding around mostly alone.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Kristatos said:


> There's always a few sand baggers in the Cat5 fields around my area...guys that were 3s a couple years ago and let their license lapse, guys that race infrequently and never upgrade, etc. Not unusual to see 4 or 5 guys do the lion's share of the work in a 5s race. Just sit in near the front and if you end up pulling take a quick one and than fall back in, staying in the top 15 or so. I know Cat 5s that could probably hold a high average in a TT or a training ride but never win any races, and I know Cat 2s that probably average less than 20 mph on their training rides and don't really ever enter time trials or launch solo break aways.


Sandbaggers seem to stay in Cat 4 IME, but sometimes you'll have guys on the fast track to Cat 1-2 that are just waiting to upgrade. I ran into one of these guys last year in Cat 4 and he was so ridiculously strong that I thought something was seriously wrong with me. I was really looking at my training routine to see where I went wrong and almost debated quitting racing. Things got a lot easier when he upgraded.


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> they're not holding you back...


Well...no and a little yes. On a flat course... an alloy clincher with a conti gp4000s, will be slower than someone on a lighter, 60mm aero carbon wheel with evo corsa or similar racing tire... How much? I won't even start that debate...

And no they aren't holding me back in the sense that I need to ride more and pedal faster.  It's a work in progress....


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

clones2 said:


> I guess Im wondering if the guys that are leading these races can just go out and ride at 23mph for an hour..


To find out, search for local or district-wide individual time trial results on the net that list elapsed time AND distance. Assuming that everyone goes as hard as they can in an individual time trial, you can at least get an idea of how fast people can go. And as you know, the "for-how-long" is crucial. I'm 69 years old and can easily hold 28 mph—for about 3 seconds.

Keep in mind that an individual time trial takes much longer to complete than even a long pull in a crit, so you can add at least one mile per hour to the speeds you find. If you need a calculator to figure average, here's one of many others out there:
Speed Distance Time Calculators


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

The fast guys in my local club rides can hold 24mph and we all take turns up front to keep the speed constant. I can get to 30 mph for a little while maybe to bridge a gap. 24mph is nothing special. There is always someone faster than you, that's the rule. 

Keep in mind that these speeds are easier to accomplish with the help of a group. Seems like your out riding on your own, which is a bit more difficult.


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## clonechemist (Sep 8, 2006)

clones2 said:


> On a flat course... an alloy clincher with a conti gp4000s, will be slower than someone on a lighter, 60mm aero carbon wheel with evo corsa or similar racing tire... How much? I won't even start that debate....


Assuming you are not on a solo breakaway, the difference for these cases is close enough to 0 that you can just go ahead and call it 0. No difference. And until you can ride 23+ mph solo for an hour on your alloy clinchers, a solo breakaway is not going to be your best bet.

Plus, if there are any significant crosswinds, you'll likely waste more energy fighting them than you would gain from such a deep rim.

Finally, what 60mm carbon clincher rim is available that is 'lighter' (your words) than a decent non-aero alloy equivalent? I'd love to know, that would be quite a technological achievement.

With all that said, don't let me dissuade you from shelling out $2k for an aero carbon wheelset...


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

clonechemist said:


> Finally, what 60mm carbon clincher rim is available that is 'lighter' (your words) than a decent non-aero alloy equivalent? I'd love to know, that would be quite a technological achievement.


Good point - I was assuming Tubular...not clincher carbon. And lighter at that rim depth is less that 100g difference than what I have now.

This is all good information. Its tough for me to benchmark myself against others when I spend the majority of my time wheelsucking with so many others during races.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Sonomasnap said:


> Masters and 1/2/3 races in the NYC area average 26-27.5MPH. Average distance 40+ miles.


Thats because people in NYC don't believe in turns.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

kbiker3111 said:


> Thats because people in NYC don't believe in turns.


So true. You never use the brake at Branchbrook (Newark) ...


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## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

Does anyone have any data on when drafting becomes more effective? I ask this for several reasons. Having less than 2 yrs experience, I've noticed a huge drafting advantage when going 25 mph or more. The same group travelling up a false flat or into some wind at 17-19 mph, I can barely feel the draft (I still feel like I'm working a lot). I can only imagine how nice it would be riding flats at 28 mph in a huge group hiding in the middle.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

clones2 said:


> Well...no and a little yes. On a flat course... an alloy clincher with a conti gp4000s, will be slower than someone on a lighter, 60mm aero carbon wheel with evo corsa or similar racing tire... How much? I won't even start that debate...
> 
> And no they aren't holding me back in the sense that I need to ride more and pedal faster.  It's a work in progress....


i work for a pro womens team. one of our girls won what is probably one of the 2 or 3 biggest twilight crits in the country...solo...on Zipp 101's. alloy. clincher. race averaged more than 25mph, and she was away for the last 6mi or so. they didn't hold her back any. 

yes, the deeper carbon wheels are 'faster'. they wouldn't bother making them if they weren't. but if you want to go fast, you'll go fast...no matter what wheels you're using.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

You drafted on the bike portion of a triathlon? Isn't that illegal?





clones2 said:


> There's always snarky comments on the board about how "everyone on the internet avg's 20+mph"...
> 
> Well, I am now consistently averaging ~20.5mph on relatively flat courses, riding solo, anywhere from 10-25 miles. Just had a triathlon split for 17 miles at 22.2mph on my regular road bike setup. Drafted a little for about 1/4 of it...
> 
> ...


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

new2rd said:


> Does anyone have any data on when drafting becomes more effective? I ask this for several reasons. Having less than 2 yrs experience, I've noticed a huge drafting advantage when going 25 mph or more. The same group travelling up a false flat or into some wind at 17-19 mph, I can barely feel the draft (I still feel like I'm working a lot). I can only imagine how nice it would be riding flats at 28 mph in a huge group hiding in the middle.


Conventional wisdom is about 18-20 mph... but prevailing winds make a big difference of course... I've been in pacelines moving 14 mph into gale force head / crosswinds and thankful to have a wheel to draft. 

And yes, it's really easy to sit in a big group on a flat road with no wind.


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

nOOky said:


> You drafted on the bike portion of a triathlon? Isn't that illegal?


SHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! "It's discouraged..." I finished 50th out of 300 (19th in bike time), so it wasn't like I was trying to place.

The 1/4 of it I was behind a guy on a TT bike and I was probably 6ft off his wheel...so I wasn't truly drafting or wheelsucking, but it helped. It wasn't a USA Tri sponsored event or anything like that either.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

You lost me at:


clones2 said:


> still riding alloy clinchers...


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

^^^ Very informative. Thank you.

Sorry - but I am not at the skill level yet to outride the 7 guys in front of me with stiffer, deep aero carbon wheels and lower rolling resistance racing tires...


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

clones2 said:


> Sorry - but I am not at the skill level yet to outride the 7 guys in front of me with stiffer, deep aero carbon wheels and lower rolling resistance racing tires...


Dude. It's not the bike (assuming your fit is good), wheels, or "race" tires. Seriously, I don't know how many people have to tell you that. Go RIDE MORE and type less.....


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

seppo17 said:


> Dude. It's not the bike (assuming your fit is good), wheels, or "race" tires. Seriously, I don't know how many people have to tell you that. Go RIDE MORE and type less.....


Dude.... Seriously.... I know I need to ride more. The thread started with a simple question... The purpose wasn't how to buy more speed.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> they're not holding you back...


^^^This.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

clones2 said:


> Dude.... Seriously.... I know I need to ride more. The thread started with a simple question... The purpose wasn't how to buy more speed.


To answer your question (I think). There is not one guy, or even two guys, up front setting the 23+mph pace for the entire road race. If you have seen this, I would say you are racing with an idiot. Why spend your whole race up front, in the wind, working hard, while others are sitting in and using less energy.

There will be different people at the front of a race. The pace will fluctuate based on what is going on. If there is an attack...the pace will increase (as someone else mentioned, this can be significant). If there is a big break with multiple teams represented...the pace may be slower. People also have roles to fill. If a team's sprinter is up front pulling all day, they won't be fresh for the sprint. So, their role is to sit in and "wheel suck" until it is time to perform. 

I would recommend doing some road races and crits. I would also recommend paying attention to what is going on. If you do this, you will see what happens. Based on your noted TT ability, you should be able to hang with a Cat 5 road race. Check it out and enjoy!


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

Wookiebiker said:


> Most of my training rides I only average around 18-20 mph though. You have to factor in climbing when you look at average speed. When you see group rides that average mid 20 mph range they are super flat rides and likely have less than 1000 feet of climbing over 50 miles...Factor in another 4000 feet of climbing and those speed numbers drop rapidly.


That, exactly. I go about 18 to 20, here in Eastern MA on solo rides, but group rides are mucho fastero. 

I got passed by a schoolbus on Monday, on a long 3 mile stretch of quiet road. Shifted up, got 20 feet behind, and went 26 to 28 for 3 miles. Now THERES a draft for ya! (Dont tell my wife)


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

clones2 said:


> Sorry - but I am not at the skill level yet to outride the 7 guys in front of me with stiffer, deep aero carbon wheels and lower rolling resistance racing tires...


So you're implying that those 7 guys are faster because they have stiff, deep, aero, carbon wheels? Not sure I understand your point.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

spade2you said:


> Things got a lot easier when he upgraded.


So true!! Hard to choose between racing with the young guns or the ex-pros and olympians in the masters fields. Just thinking about it makes me want to take up billiards or something.


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## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

36 km for bit more than an hour, I do it, specially on the highway rather than in the 3 km loop I train on week days, it is easier to mantain 37 - 38 kh on a straight road


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

ph0enix said:


> So you're implying that those 7 guys are faster because they have stiff, deep, aero, carbon wheels? Not sure I understand your point.


Well... it sure doesn't hurt...  Upgraded my ride for tomorrow...


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

And before you give me crap about the bike setup.

I know the nub needs to be cut.
The bars need to be leveled after a slight adjustment I just made
The seat is that way because I had it further forward for a triathlon last weekend.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Your seat post is...ah never mind. It's perfect for this thread.


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

woodys737 said:


> Your seat post is...ah never mind. It's perfect for this thread.


Seat post is that way because I needed it reversed for a triathlon last weekend... The seat was 2 cm forward, seat angle was 77 degrees and the bars were lower... 

It's back where it needs to be for road, but I haven't flipped it back yet....


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## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

Saddle is tilted. Bars do not see what isnwrong with them


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

woodys737 said:


> Your seat post is...ah never mind. It's perfect for this thread.


Slam that stem?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

clones2 said:


> Seat post is that way because I needed it reversed for a triathlon last weekend... The seat was 2 cm forward, seat angle was 77 degrees and the bars were lower...
> 
> It's back where it needs to be for road, but I haven't flipped it back yet....


No worries. My post was in jest and just before your next explanation it appears. To be honest I wish more seat post did what the xXx's do so those of us who want to make a poor mans tt bike can do it more easily...

As for pulling at 23...not fast but not slow. A steady 23 is way different than 20 with surges to 30+ to average 23.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

clones2 said:


> Well... it sure doesn't hurt...  Upgraded my ride for tomorrow...


Nice looking wheels!
What's going to be your excuse if you don't drop those 7 riders tomorrow? 

...oh, and the saddle is not level.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

you should mount your computer sensor on the front of the fork...trust me on this one. especially if those aren't your wheels. don't argue, just do it.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> you should mount your computer sensor on the front of the fork...trust me on this one. especially if those aren't your wheels. don't argue, just do it.


+1

Mistake waiting to happen.


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## Stuart B (Feb 26, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> you should mount your computer sensor on the front of the fork...trust me on this one. especially if those aren't your wheels. don't argue, just do it.


good call


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Some of us can pull for hours at 23-24mph on a flat road with no headwind. Some guys can ride hard and average higher for extended periods of time. 

That said, the majority of _racers_ try to stay off the front. There are usually only a few guys who ride in the wind. The remaining 10-100 riders in a road race are getting some sort of a draft. Nobody wants to work only to get passed at the end. This leads to negative racing, where nobody wants to pull through. 

Then few things might happen. Sometimes a few guys go to the front and set a leisurely pace and everyone just sits in. This often happens in road races with some hills -- guys sit in on the flats knowing that the hills will decide the race. 

If riders don't pull through when the guys up front flick their elbow it can be frustrating. Frustrated riders attack (only to get tired and then the slow pace sets back in), which makes things surgy. 

Sometimes cagey riders counter-attack, either after a surge or at a good time on the course, forming a break-away. The the field has a choice of staying with the break or letting it go._ I almost always try to get in the break. _


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Then few things might happen. Sometimes a few guys go to the front and set a leisurely pace and everyone just sits in. This often happens in road races with some hills -- guys sit in on the flats knowing that the hills will decide the race.
> [/I]


This is exactly what happened in my race yesterday. Cat4/5 combined. We had 5 hard climbs to do. Along with another half dozen "rollers" I guess you would call them. I had zero issues with the speed of the race... Close to a dozen guys were dropped... I managed to stay right in the thick of things with just over 1 mile to go. It was a hilltop finish so most were saving themselves for that. 

My cardio was in good shape, the brain said go...but the legs said "no way". Ended up finishing right in the middle overall. Pretty great for my first road race...

Oh - and the wheels. Had to keep checking to make sure they were on the ground... they just float.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

good job:thumbsup:

did you fix the computer sensor yet?


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## anotherguy (Dec 9, 2010)

Who is pulling 23+mph?

Me.

On recovery days.


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> good job:thumbsup:
> 
> did you fix the computer sensor yet?


Thanks. Not yet, but I suppose I will. I understand if it gets in the spokes either the spoke or sensor will have to give... The sensor needs to be turned towards the spoke a bit due to it being more than 1cm away if its straight inline with the fork. If its front of the fork...I'm worried that wind resistance will push it towards the spokes. But its worth a shot I guess...I'll know it won't work if I hear the clicking of the spoke on the sensor. Better than something breaking.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

clones2 said:


> Thanks. Not yet, but I suppose I will. I understand if it gets in the spokes either the spoke or sensor will have to give... The sensor needs to be turned towards the spoke a bit due to it being more than 1cm away if its straight inline with the fork. If its front of the fork...I'm worried that wind resistance will push it towards the spokes. But its worth a shot I guess...I'll know it won't work if I hear the clicking of the spoke on the sensor. Better than something breaking.


How new are you to cycling?

Somehow, you have managed hit several "new rider" issues in just one thread. 


Since you finished mid-pack in your race, while using carbon aero wheels, I assume you are now ready to work on your engine. If you stop and listen (or in this case read), you can learn a great deal from this forum.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Engine and tactics. Yes, learn!!!


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

jspharmd said:


> How new are you to cycling?
> 
> Somehow, you have managed hit several "new rider" issues in just one thread.
> 
> ...


I've been reading for months... I decided I was going to be a cyclist exactly 2 months ago. I started some multisport stuff last year. So I invested in a nice carbon bike, down to 16 lbs as of today, and been training my butt off. Dropped myself 10 lbs down to 175. Ive done 2 races. Top 10 in a Cat 5 crit in a race I was leading last lap, and now mid pack in a Cat 4/5 road race.

It's been a learning experience. I race pretty conservatively unless an opportunity presents itself. Just getting used to riding in different parts of the pack and getting acclimated to racing. I'll usually wait for someone else to make a move and grab their wheel if they start to move up. Otherwise I'm happy to sit in and see how everything plays out. The goal has been to not get dropped and finish. 

I'm also learning my bike inside and out and trying new things to see what works. Keeping a nice bike in top top shape is important to me. Can't believe the racing year is over... It's been a great couple of months.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

clones2 said:


> Thanks. Not yet, but I suppose I will. I understand if it gets in the spokes either the spoke or sensor will have to give... The sensor needs to be turned towards the spoke a bit due to it being more than 1cm away if its straight inline with the fork. If its front of the fork...I'm worried that wind resistance will push it towards the spokes. But its worth a shot I guess...I'll know it won't work if I hear the clicking of the spoke on the sensor. Better than something breaking.


trust me on this one. you REALLY should put it on the front. i'm speaking from rather substantial experience. in the highly unlikely event the 'wind pushes it towards the spokes', it'll just get knocked back away from the spoke. on the other hand, if it's behind the fork and gets into the spoke the sensor is 100% toast, possibly taking some spokes w/ it.


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