# Where are all the disc brake bikes in the TdF?



## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Figured this subject would whip the hopeless liberal disc brake lovers into a small frenzy.

Where's the beef? I admit surprise. With all the talk of disc brakes taking the tour by storm, watching Stage 1 in the famous race, what would you say the ratio of rim brake to disc to be? Probably 5 rim brake bikes to 1 disc. Anybody have a source for stats on disc brake usage in the peloton?

Seemed as though we were heading for 50/50 rim/disc population by all the conversation and big bike brands pushing disc brakes at every bike shop but oh no. Pro teams and riders still vote with what they prefer vastly, rim brake race bikes. Rim brakes are still the rule and disc brakes the exception.

Ok, discuss.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Some of us are recording it to watch later, Einstein.

Thanks for the spoiler.

PS. wrong forum [email protected]


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> Some of us are recording it to watch later, Einstein.
> 
> Thanks for the spoiler.
> 
> PS. wrong forum [email protected]


Hey clueless, I said nothing of any result of the stage. If it were just you, I would because you are such a sweetheart.

Because you may handle menial jobs well...that isn't even a certainty, I will put you in charge of freeze framing coverage and counting the number of disc versus rim brake bikes and reporting back...lol.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> Hey clueless, I said nothing of any result of the stage. If it were just you, I would because you are such a sweetheart.


Stick to drafting a thesis about the intricacies of handlebars.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> Stick to drafting a thesis about the intricacies of handlebars.


You got it backwards. You are my puppet. :cornut:


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## Sproiteboike (Jun 9, 2018)

Harley?? wtf mate, I'm sick...I'm fat.... it's like, I caab the **** up mate, but I faint before I even got in the caabs mate! I need more sproite when I boike!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

The UCI didn't give them a free pass on Salbutamol overdose.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Once again, disc brakes really don't make a lot of sense in the upper echelon of cycle racing. You and I would probably love to have discs on those long, fast mountain descents, but the pros almost never hit their brakes. 60mph around a tight turn? Yes, if that's what they need to stay ahead of the competition.

Last year, there were a few sprinters using discs, but I assume that was more for advertising visibility.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Oh no, not again. :mad2:


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## Sproiteboike (Jun 9, 2018)

ya tbh i'm not a fan of disc brakes, mostly from an aesthetics point of view and I think that my 105 brakes are more than good enough. It's tough looking for my new bike since it seems almost all endurance geometry bikes are going disc these days.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Once again, disc brakes really don't make a lot of sense in the upper echelon of cycle racing. You and I would probably love to have discs on those long, fast mountain descents, but the pros almost never hit their brakes. 60mph around a tight turn? Yes, if that's what they need to stay ahead of the competition.
> 
> Last year, there were a few sprinters using discs, but I assume that was more for advertising visibility.


The rub is forgive the pun...lets say disc versus rim is a 'push'. One would think marketing would mandate the pros to ride disc brakes to brainwash the public into buying them. Yes, we agree in the mountains you and I want disc brakes. Pretty clear though watching Stage 1 the pros don't want them. What is remarkable is...the pros aren't on them in spite of not wanting them...because they are paid by teams. At this point in time, even more of an indictment the pros want rim brakes or the entire peloton would be on disc based upon higher profit for bike brands. Race on Sunday, buy on Monday as the marketing slogan goes.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Oh no, not again. :mad2:


This disc thread is going be different; this time we we resolve it once and for all


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## askmass (Sep 28, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Oh no, not again. :mad2:


And some people wonder who/what/when/where and why so many of the former regulars fled this place, right?

Nothing has changed (back) for the better, I see, so I'll be moving along again.

Best to those who remain to endure and suffer the diarrhea-like drivel spewed.

Keep it upright.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

askmass said:


> *And some people wonder who/what/when/where and why so many of the former regulars fled this place, right?*
> 
> Nothing has changed (back) for the better, I see, so I'll be moving along again.
> 
> Best to the majority of you, keep it upright.


Forum spammers essentially shut this place down....and that was after years of admin indifference to user-wants: for example that massive column of useless forum bloat to the right that does nothing for anyone than slow down page loding.


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## askmass (Sep 28, 2009)

factory feel said:


> Stick to drafting a thesis about the intricacies of handlebars.


I'm certain he has a world of experience with drafting.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Detractors of this thread are too ignorant to comprehend the nuance of why this is worth discussing. 2018 was the year of the disc. Most of the super bikes are now sold with disc. The TdF is the market child of all that is carbon and expensive which translates to profit for bike brands. Very few disc brake bikes in the peloton. Belies reason. Bike brands pay the riders to ride. Their bread is buttered by hydraulic disc brakes. 

Perhaps you guys don't follow the sport very closely. The TdF this season was supposed to be the coming out party for disc brakes so bike brands could celebrate the windfall. Didn't happen. UCI weight limit isn't the impediment. Disc brake bikes can come in at 15 lbs. Surprising really.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> Detractors of this thread are too ignorant to comprehend the nuance of why this is worth discussing. 2018 was the year of the disc. Most of the super bikes are now sold with disc. The TdF is the market child of all that is carbon and expensive which translates to profit for bike brands. Very few disc brake bikes in the peloton. Belies reason. Bike brands pay the riders to ride. Their bread is buttered by hydraulic disc brakes.
> 
> Perhaps you guys don't follow the sport very closely. The TdF this season was supposed to be the coming out party for disc brakes *so bike brands could celebrate* the windfall. Didn't happen. UCI weight limit isn't the impediment. Disc brake bikes can come in at 15 lbs. Surprising really.


Hopefully Gravel bikes pulled them through the Fiscal year.

derp


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

askmass said:


> I'm certain he has a world of experience with drafting.


He sure doesn't pull much, always riding our coattails.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> Hopefully Gravel bikes pulled them through the Fiscal year.
> 
> derp


Nope. Not gravel bikes. Only hillbillies ride gravel and most of them don't have much money. 

Large bike brands have made their bread on all the carbon rim brake bikes they have sold with Di2 because Di2 doesn't slow you down...which includes pro bikes in this year's TdF. Good amateurs as well who see through the hype. Real men are all on rim brakes. :thumbsup:
PS: if you guys don't want to have a substantive discussion, I can bend the arc of the narrative because I am just that good. :8:


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

11spd said:


> Detractors of this thread are too ignorant to comprehend the nuance of why this is worth discussing. 2018 was the year of the disc. Most of the super bikes are now sold with disc. The TdF is the market child of all that is carbon and expensive which translates to profit for bike brands. Very few disc brake bikes in the peloton. Belies reason. Bike brands pay the riders to ride. Their bread is buttered by hydraulic disc brakes.
> 
> Perhaps you guys don't follow the sport very closely. The TdF this season was supposed to be the coming out party for disc brakes so bike brands could celebrate the windfall. Didn't happen. UCI weight limit isn't the impediment. Disc brake bikes can come in at 15 lbs. Surprising really.



I've known terriers less persistent, and broken record players less broken.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Marc said:


> I've known terriers less persistent, and broken record players less broken.


I have known posters...not all, who only troll because they completely lack critical thought.

Because nobody has a good response, I will craft one for you.

"11spd you make a great point. Here-to-fore there were many headwinds to adopting disc brakes in pro racing. But no longer. With major bike brands promoting disc brakes, independent of the efficacy of discs, even if no value added, one would think they would be all over team sponsored pro racing, but they aren't. Only plausible reason is either the team...perhaps logistics of wheel changes and/or pro riders don't believe they are as competitive on disc brake bikes. Evidence is overwhelming. Path is clear for disc brakes but pros aren't signing up perhaps 'in spite of major manufacturers wanting to sell them'. I admit surprise like you. I would have thought minimum 50% of the peloton would be on disc brake bikes this year and yet only a fraction are on them. Some are so on the fence about them, I even witnessed team sponsored bikes with 1 rim brake and 1 disc. That is really splitting the baby."


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> I have known posters...not all, who only troll because they completely lack critical thought.
> 
> Because nobody has a good response, I will craft one for you.
> 
> "11spd you make a great point. Here-to-fore there were many headwinds to adopting disc brakes in pro racing. But no longer. With major bike brands promoting disc brakes, independent of the efficacy of discs, even if no value added, one would think they would be all over team sponsored pro racing, but they aren't. Only plausible reason is either the team...perhaps logistics of wheel changes and/or pro riders don't believe they are as competitive on disc brake bikes. Evidence is overwhelming. Path is clear for disc brakes but pros aren't signing up perhaps 'in spite of major manufacturers wanting to sell them'. I admit surprise like you. I would have thought minimum 50% of the peloton would be on disc brake bikes this year and yet only a fraction are one them"


Good reply but we went full circle and ad nauseum with this discussion two years ago when Disc Brakes were gonna be the greatest thing since Yoga Pants.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> Good reply but we went full circle and ad nauseum with this discussion two years ago when Disc Brakes were gonna be the greatest thing since Yoga Pants.


Point is ff, the goalposts have moved. Disc brakes were projected to be all over the peloton in this year's TdF. Even if they aren't perceived to be an advantage, by virtue of pure promotion they were expected. Hasn't turned out that way.


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

I am consistently baffled by how much people care about this particular discussion. Disc's work, rim brakes work, pick whichever you prefer and be done with it. 

It feels like everyone with a impassioned opinion either way is just trying to justify the decision they made to disc or not to disc. 

Please let this die.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

11spd said:


> Nope. Not gravel bikes. Only hillbillies ride gravel and most of them don't have much money.


This is the most entertaining thing I've read on the interwebs in a long time. Thank you, it made my day.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 11spd again.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

11spd said:


> *Point is ff, the goalposts have moved. * Disc brakes were projected to be all over the peloton in this year's TdF. Even if they aren't perceived to be an advantage, by virtue of pure promotion they were expected. Hasn't turned out that way.


Indeed they have..."11spd" is so 5 years old. Cool kids now have 13 speed.

https://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/rotor-1x13-groupset-details-specs-52573/


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

wait, I saw some while watching... on Specialised bikes too... i think it was quick step (it was #101)

also at least 2 guys on treks.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

where are the disc brakes in the TdF?? why on the podium, in Yellow, and in Green today, lol

Tour de France bikes: Fernando Gaviria's Specialized S-Works Venge – Gallery | Cyclingnews.com


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

BCSaltchucker said:


> where are the disc brakes in the TdF?? why on the podium, in Yellow, and in Green today, lol
> 
> Tour de France bikes: Fernando Gaviria's Specialized S-Works Venge – Gallery | Cyclingnews.com


I know you guys are struggling to understand. Precisely the point. Gaviria won on discs. Of course the Venge because the way it is designed won't stop with rim brakes...lol. A little secret the bicycle illiterate don't know was the Venge in its first edition was originally designed for disc brakes until the UCI ban changed the course of the design toward rim brake which was a disaster.

Point is, riders can win on disc. Look at the five stages last year's greatest sprinter won on his Venge VIAS disc Marcel Kittel?...who came in 3rd this year in stage one. Kittel now doesn't get the lead out from his new team and so it maybe Gaviria who gets all the glory this year.

So disc brakes don't slow down the top sprinters when aero drag at the highest speed is most critical. Its been proven. But in spite of that, the vast majority of the peloton is on rim brake bikes. That is the proverbial rub which defies why big brand bike makers sponsor teams...to sell their most expensive bikes they all offer in disc for highest profit. Even if at the pro level disc versus rim doesn't matter which is pretty clear, pros choose rim repeatedly...or teams do. Only plausible explanation is...the final say so is determined by the team mechanics..lol.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

El Scorcho said:


> I am consistently baffled by how much people care about this particular discussion. Disc's work, rim brakes work, pick whichever you prefer and be done with it.
> 
> It feels like everyone with a impassioned opinion either way is just trying to justify the decision they made to disc or not to disc.
> 
> Please let this die.


Honestly, you being baffled is as baffling as at this juncture with big bike brands going all in on disc that 'any' riders in the peloton are on rim brakes. Its been proven that each brake type work at the pro level...repeatedly. Ancillary to the point. 

You also don't understand, I have no dog in this hunt. I am not passionate about either brake type. I respect both brake types for their strengths and weaknesses having owned both. That further buttresses the incredulity of a dominant brake type. There shouldn't be but clearly is. That is the point you miss and others as well. This isn't two years ago when the debate raged. The debate no longer rages as of today. Rim brakes are dominant in the peloton when the path is clear for disc to dominate.

Marketing and profit is why big bike brands spend thousands to showcase their flagship bikes which are highest profit. The fact you don't understand why this is noteworthy is an indictment against you. Why are you here if you know nothing of cycling?...lol.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Marc said:


> I've known terriers less persistent, and broken record players less broken.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Marc again.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

11spd said:


> Perhaps you guys don't follow the sport very closely. The TdF this season was supposed to be the coming out party for disc brakes so bike brands could celebrate the windfall. Didn't happen. UCI weight limit isn't the impediment. Disc brake bikes can come in at 15 lbs. Surprising really.


Of the bikes I've noticed so far:

Sky and Moviestar are on rim brakes (and assume Katusha).

WGG is on disc brakes (Wilier). 

Bora and Quickstep are on discs (Specialized)

Trek is on discs (Trek). 

Drapac is on discs (Cannondale)

BMC is on discs (BMC)


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Direct Energie on discs
Lotto Soudal on discs (Ridley).


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

11spd said:


> Honestly, you being baffled is as baffling as at this juncture with big bike brands going all in on disc that 'any' riders in the peloton are on rim brakes. Its been proven that each brake type work at the pro level...repeatedly. Ancillary to the point.
> 
> You also don't understand, I have no dog in this hunt. I am not passionate about either brake type.


I am sorry that you feel the need to malign my intellect. My comment, if you read it again, is regarding how passionate people are about this. I was not responding to your query as to why there is a lack of discs in the pro peleton. 
I will admit your point is mildly interesting, but I don't feel it deserves the ardent attention you are giving it. Especially when you add that you have no dog in the hunt. Methinks thou doth protest too much.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

pedalbiker said:


> Direct Energie on discs
> Lotto Soudal on discs (Ridley).


Pedalbiker, do you know the ratio of rim to disc brakes in the peloton?
thanks


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

El Scorcho said:


> I am sorry that you feel the need to malign my intellect. My comment, if you read it again, is regarding how passionate people are about this. I was not responding to your query as to why there is a lack of discs in the pro peleton.
> I will admit your point is mildly interesting, but I don't feel it deserves the ardent attention you are giving it. Especially when you add that you have no dog in the hunt. Methinks thou doth protest too much.


And I believe your thinking is off whether you indict your own intellect or not. Whose passionate about it? Its just brakes. Its a subject...like how many bikes are carbon in the peloton...or how many have two and not three wheels.

This is not a protest. It is commentary in a vacuum without substantive response...lol.
Let's see...what else can you be wrong about? :aureola:


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

11spd said:


> Pedalbiker, do you know the ratio of rim to disc brakes in the peloton?
> thanks


No idea, just going off what I see on the tv. Doesn't seem anyone's done a big tech review yet, either, so hard to determine just off pics. Maybe in a few days they'll do a rundown of all the bikes. 

MTM looks to be on rim (Cervelo). 
FDJ on rim (Lapierre).

Also possible that some guys on the same team are on rim and some on disc, though I'd think that'd cause issues with wheel changes. 

Curious to see how a disc wheel change goes, too, if they'll just change the whole bike or actually try to change the wheel.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> Curious to see how a disc wheel change goes, too, if they'll just change the whole bike or actually try to change the wheel.


Bob Roll (or whoever the commentator is) was explaining this yesterday. They change the whole bike.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

11spd said:


> So disc brakes don't slow down the top sprinters when aero drag at the highest speed is most critical. Its been proven.


They redesign the area of fork for more aero shape where the rim brake was. It's a wash. https://youtu.be/9HRhvIHUFG0?t=64 



> But in spite of that, the vast majority of the peloton is on rim brake bikes.


Possibly due to the issue I responded to above.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

bvber said:


> They redesign the area of fork for more aero shape where the rim brake was. It's a wash. https://youtu.be/9HRhvIHUFG0?t=64
> 
> 
> Possibly due to the issue I responded to above.


Agree...or pretty close


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

bvber said:


> Bob Roll (or whoever the commentator is) was explaining this yesterday. They change the whole bike.


Yes, seems to be the case.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

pedalbiker said:


> No idea, just going off what I see on the tv. Doesn't seem anyone's done a big tech review yet, either, so hard to determine just off pics. Maybe in a few days they'll do a rundown of all the bikes.
> 
> MTM looks to be on rim (Cervelo).
> FDJ on rim (Lapierre).
> ...


Will be interesting. Maybe more disc brakes in the race than I originally saw. Hoping there is a bike list published at some point as you say.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

11spd said:


> Will be interesting. Maybe more disc brakes in the race than I originally saw. Hoping there is a bike list published at some point as you say.


Maybe not many on "flat" stages. :confused5:


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

pedalbiker said:


> Direct Energie on discs
> Lotto Soudal on discs (Ridley).


At least some of the BMC team are riding the new BMC TimeMachine Road 01 (It's disc only - not available in a Rim brake version).


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

I am sooooooo, sooooooooo tired of the disc vs rim threads.

Just ride. You know what you need/prefer/want. 
It's to the point nobody cares. 
No body.

edit: Moderators can there PUHLEASE be a new subforum = Disc vs Rim. Tired of seeing these threads everywhere but Retro.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

SantaCruz said:


> I am sooooooo, sooooooooo tired of the disc vs rim threads.
> 
> Just ride. You know what you need/prefer/want.
> It's to the point nobody cares.
> ...


What is more tiring? You coming here and deriding the thread. Please go start your own threads or denigrate others.
You miss the point as others have. This isn't about which brake type is better or what you or somebody else prefers. Nobody cares what you prefer or me. Its about bike makers going all in with disc brakes on the type of bikes that are raced in the TdF and yet the high presence of rim brake bikes. Its notable. It isn't finding a cure for the common cold. It is only an observation about brake type in the biggest tour of the year where bike brands showcase their wares to bend the arc of demand.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

bvber said:


> Maybe not many on "flat" stages. :confused5:


Another good point and of course thought of that when I posted. We all know the top riders ride different bikes for the same brand.
Sagan was on his Venge disc for Stage 2 and we know the success he has had on his Tarmac with rim brakes and Roubaix he raced in the Classic race by the same name. An oddity which further bucks the disc trend is his custom built Roubaix which is only available as disc to the public, speaking of flat stages, for the Roubaix race Peter's Roubaix is rim brake. So much for adhering to what big manufacturers sell the public. Will be interesting if more tailoring occurs aka horses for courses and if Sagan is on his Tarmac on the climbing stages and whether it will be rim brake versus the first two flat stages he has been on his Venge starting the race this year where its pretty clear that aero is preferred. We know he will be on his time trial bike for stage 3 tomorrow.


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

Hey, there are three to four hundred reasons, as in extra dollars for disc brakes on retail road bikes v their rim counterparts.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

GlobalGuy said:


> Hey, there are three to four hundred reasons, as in extra dollars for disc brakes on retail road bikes v their rim counterparts.


The whole point. Why pros aren't universally shilling what the big bike makers derive the most profit from i.e disc brakes. Many are of course. Way more disc brakes in this year's TdF than last year.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Marc again.


gave it all to donna huh?


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

11spd said:


> Detractors of this thread are too ignorant to comprehend the nuance of why this is worth discussing.


Maybe you would have better luck if you moved this thread to the "Nuanced Discussions" sub forum?


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## rideit (Feb 8, 2005)

Ima sum up this thread.
1: there are plenty of disc bikes in the TDF
2: 11spd has an irrational dislike/fear of this reality


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> gave it all to donna huh?


Are you just jealous because I never gave it to you, Factory Feel?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

rideit said:


> Ima sum up this thread.
> 1: there are plenty of disc bikes in the TDF
> 2: 11spd has an irrational dislike of this reality


3: Nobody in their right mind gives a s#!t.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Are you just jealous because I never gave it to you, Factory Feel?


no, just amused.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

seems just a matter of time before most all are on disk. 2019?

now, if most all are on disk for the roubaix stage, that will be a big milestone.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

blackfrancois said:


> seems just a matter of time before most all are on disk. 2019?
> 
> now, if most all are on disk for the roubaix stage, that will be a big milestone.


flat tires will be the juggernaut.

no more wheel changes on the side of the road.

disc rub is real.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

In ten (five?) years when disc brake bikes are the only bikes being ridden in the TdF, this is going to be a funny thread to read.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

masont said:


> In ten (five?) years when disc brake bikes are the only bikes being ridden in the TdF, this is going to be a funny thread to read.


No it wouldn't be. Only an acknowledgement of the slow evolution to disc brakes in the peloton in spite of big bike brands going all in on disc on their most expensive bikes raced in the biggest tour of the year. Perhaps the biggest headwind are wheel changes and this year, it looks as though teams simply change out the whole bicycle.

What will be more notable is in 5 years when there will be still be bikes raced in tour events on rim brakes...when they make a comeback. Of course if a name brand rider gets hacked by a disc in the peloton this year with all the riders hitting the deck, that will start the geese flying in the opposite direction back toward rim brakes sooner when once again wheel changes will be made by the side of the road versus entire bicycle.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> flat tires will be the juggernaut.
> 
> no more wheel changes on the side of the road.
> 
> disc rub is real.


Disc rub is real...but wheel changes on disc brake bikes are slower anyway. With rim brake, riders on the fly can tune rub via the cam lever that opens for wheel changes.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

factory feel said:


> Some of us are recording it to watch later, Einstein.
> 
> Thanks for the spoiler.
> 
> PS. wrong forum [email protected]



"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to factory feel again."


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Haven't been any TT bikes in Stage 3 with discs yet.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

factory feel said:


> flat tires will be the juggernaut.
> 
> no more wheel changes on the side of the road.
> 
> disc rub is real.


This is a big issue. For most of the teams the change to disc also means a change to the established rim brake wheel change procedure. Plus more risk that neutral support may not have a wheel that works. So for some teams it may not be worth the risk and better to stay with we well known entity. 

It is different however for those who don't a team car following the with spare wheels. I personally was never going to get some guy to give me a new wheel anyway so any issues with brake rub after you change wheel are moot.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

factory feel said:


> disc rub is real.


Bike companies may develop something just for the racing situation, say, wider gap between the calipers and the pads moves longer distance when activated...?


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

bvber said:


> Bike companies may develop something just for the racing situation, say, wider gap between the calipers and the pads moves longer distance when activated...?
> View attachment 323067


Agree that likely disc brakes are in the stone age of development. Rotor edge issue for example hasn't even been addressed.
I believe pad centering, sticky pistons and as you say, a sure fire way to address lateral rotor position variation..there maybe a friendlier design out there over time.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

11spd said:


> Agree that likely disc brakes are in the stone age of development.* Rotor edge issue for example hasn't even been addressed.*
> I believe pad centering, sticky pistons and as you say, a sure fire way to address lateral rotor position variation..there maybe a friendlier design out there over time.


You should actually learn about these things before you speak...otherwise you only prove the low opinion people have of your knowledge.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Marc said:


> You should actually learn about these things before you speak...otherwise you only prove the low opinion people have of your knowledge.


.......or lack thereof.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Marc said:


> You should actually learn about these things before you speak...otherwise you only prove the low opinion people have of your knowledge.


Feeling is mutual. You in particular. Current solution is inadequate sad troll.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

11spd said:


> Feeling is mutual. You in particular. Current solution is inadequate sad troll.



Indeed it is....I mean if you read cycling tech news you'd know that all the "issues" you claim are "issues" were addressed....years ago. And here you are thinking you're sticking it to the rest of us.

Please keep it up. You're a riot.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Marc said:


> Indeed it is....I mean if you read cycling tech news you'd know that all the "issues" you claim are "issues" were addressed....years ago. And here you are thinking you're sticking it to the rest of us.
> 
> Please keep it up. You're a riot.


not sticking it to anybody. You are sticking it to yourself. I come from the world of tech. Pretty clear you don't.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

11spd said:


> not sticking it to anybody. You are sticking it to yourself. I come from the world of tech. Pretty clear you don't.



Tell you what, here's a tutorial:

LMGTFY


----------



## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Marc said:


> Tell you what, here's a tutorial:
> 
> LMGTFY


your desperation to make a cogent point is...well, you don't have one...lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FArL-T4Oyaw


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> Agree that likely disc brakes are in the stone age of development. Rotor edge issue for example hasn't even been addressed.
> I believe pad centering, sticky pistons and as you say, a sure fire way to address lateral rotor position variation..there maybe a friendlier design out there over time.


This post confirms my previous suspicions of your intellect.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> This post confirms my previous suspicions of your intellect.


Thanks to the few that participated in earnest.

Goodbye to the trolls.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)




----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*

Ok kids, play nice or I will pull this thread over. . .


----------



## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> Ok kids, play nice or I will pull this thread over. . .


please do, maybe close it due to spoilers and there is a pro cycling sub forums for spoilers. Please shoot this nag of a thread!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

my money is on rim brake bike winning the Yellow in this year's Tour.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Please lock thread in case of accidental tdf spoiler.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Did you guys hear?

BMC beats Froome's Sky to win the team time trial.

What do you guy's mean about a spoiler? I don't look at it that way. Was an even playing field. BMC didn't spoil Team Sky, they just flat outrode them. Everybody given an even chance.

Btw, back OT, I would say the ratio of rim to disc in the TT was 15:1. Very few disc brake TT bikes in the tour this year.

Thought you should know factory feel and thanks for coming back to the thread.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> my money is on rim brake bike winning the Yellow in this year's Tour.


Nope. Not gonna happen.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

kiwisimon said:


> please do, maybe close it due to spoilers and there is a pro cycling sub forums for spoilers. Please shoot this nag of a thread!


What good will that do? Then 11sp and Factory Feel will just start another one out of boredom.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Lombard said:


> What good will that do? Then 11sp and Factory Feel will just start another one out of boredom.


I am up for banning all disc threads for a month


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## dir-t (Oct 14, 2005)

11spd said:


> Btw, back OT, I would say the ratio of rim to disc in the TT was 15:1. Very few disc brake TT bikes in the tour this year.


The number one selling vehicle in Montana is the Chevy Silverado followed by the Subaru Outback.

IOW, who gives a f---?


----------



## vic bastige (Jan 22, 2004)

If I have it right the UCI approved discs for road racing in May of this year. Late May at that. Perhaps the reason you don't see as many discs in the peloton is that gives Teams almost no planning/practice/full experience on them in time for the biggest race of the year? My guess is if the ruling holds, and I'm gue$$ing it will, you will see a much higher percentage next year. But hey, I've had two big boy beers already tonight.

and FWIW, I have a Bianchi Infinito CV without and an Aeroad with. I like with WAY better regardless of what the experts tell me I should like.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

kiwisimon said:


> please do, maybe close it due to spoilers and there is a pro cycling sub forums for spoilers. Please shoot this nag of a thread!





factory feel said:


> Please lock thread in case of accidental tdf spoiler.





Lombard said:


> What good will that do? Then 11sp and Factory Feel will just start another one out of boredom.





DaveG said:


> I am up for banning all disc threads for a month


There's quite a bit of traffic on a thread that so many repeat customers want locked down.

Was it Kevin Costner that said something to the effect of

"Build a Thread and They Will Come"


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> What good will that do? Then 11sp and Factory Feel will just start another one out of boredom.


says the poster with over 7,000 posts in 4 years!


----------



## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Lombard said:


> What good will that do? Then 11sp and Factory Feel will just start another one out of boredom.


Resistance is futile. Embrace the force Luke.
Good news is, come to the thread tomorrow and I will keep it updated with Stage 4 in real time.
Always good to keep up on who is getting it done on the world stage and whether they are running disc brakes.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

DaveG said:


> I am up for banning all disc threads for a month


Sorry, like others here, your opinion doesn't matter. My thread and I create the narrative.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Does anyone in here actually seriously watch any whole bicycle race? I have never been able to, not since Sky became dominant. Seriously I rather just watch "Final kilometers" on youtube. Bicycle races do make for great watching when you're on the trainer though!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> Does anyone in here actually seriously watch any whole bicycle race? I have never been able to, not since Sky became dominant. Seriously I rather just watch "Final kilometers" on youtube. Bicycle races do make for great watching when you're on the trainer though!


I mostly do.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> Sorry, like others here, your opinion doesn't matter. My thread and I create the narrative.


Side Show more accurately describes your thread participation.


----------



## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)




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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> Did you guys hear?
> 
> BMC beats Froome's Sky to win the team time trial.
> 
> ...


Not exactly the apology I was looking for, but it will suffice.


----------



## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Finx said:


> At least some of the BMC team are riding the new BMC TimeMachine Road 01 (It's disc only - not available in a Rim brake version).


And THIS, Mr. El Scorcho, is why people are so passionate about it. I don't want or need disc brakes, but if manufacturers have their way, they are the ONLY brake that will be available on high-end race (and many other) bikes. Specialized has already publicly said exactly this. 

Your argument (pick what you want) has been made before when 9, 10, 11 speed group sets came out. Just try to buy a race bike with 9 speed today. Now of course, more speeds provided an advantage whereas discs are a big step BACKWARD in terms of weight, aero, maintainability, field servicability etc.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

OldChipper said:


> And THIS, Mr. El Scorcho, is why people are so passionate about it. I don't want or need disc brakes, but if manufacturers have their way, they are the ONLY brake that will be available on high-end race (and many other) bikes. Specialized has already publicly said exactly this.
> 
> Your argument (pick what you want) has been made before when 9, 10, 11 speed group sets came out. Just try to buy a race bike with 9 speed today. Now of course, more speeds provided an advantage whereas discs are a big step BACKWARD in terms of weight, aero, maintainability, field servicability etc.


I like your style, Dude.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

velodog said:


> Was it Kevin Costner that said something to the effect of
> 
> "Build a Thread and They Will Come"


Waterworld=he has no credibility, and I think he plagiarized that little maxim.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Trek claims that their Madone Disc is more aero than their Madone rim. Ughg, ok, I don't see how that can be given that their rim brakes are hidden on the Madone, but yeah ok whatever. 

But then Trek didn't use disc on their TT bikes, did they, where aero is pretty damn important for a TT bike. Liar liar pants on fire, Trek.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> Trek claims that their Madone Disc is more aero than their Madone rim. Ughg, ok, I don't see how that can be given that their rim brakes are hidden on the Madone, but yeah ok whatever.
> 
> But then Trek didn't use disc on their TT bikes, did they, where aero is pretty damn important for a TT bike. Liar liar pants on fire, Trek.


Trek still makes both Madones, so pick which you want (unless you just like being mad, then do that). 

Disc TT bikes are still relatively rare, as the market is smaller and the manufacturers have greatly slowed the roll-out of newer TT/Tri bikes as demand is lower and there is large supplies of barely used pretty fast bikes out there (a used Shiv, Speedconcept, P3C, or P4 or P5 are all very fast). From an aero gains perspective there is very gains to be made over the current gen super bikes. That said, most of them stop like crap given the carbon rims, poor brake positioning, and long convoluted brake cable routing- and in a vacuum hydro-disc brakes would be perfect for this. But the groups (especially levers) and wheels aren't ready for prime time like regular road stuff quite yet- especially if it jumps to thru-axel.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> But then Trek didn't use disc on their TT bikes, did they, where aero is pretty damn important for a TT bike. Liar liar pants on fire, Trek.


I see the brake master cylinder and reservoir being a problem for TT bikes. They will inevitably be larger than the brake levers are on a typical TT bike but I have no doubt they can be just as aero if shaped correctly. It will be a very specialized and probably expensive component.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Fajita Dave said:


> I see the brake master cylinder and reservoir being a problem for TT bikes. They will inevitably be larger than the brake levers are on a typical TT bike but I have no doubt they can be just as aero if shaped correctly. It will be a very specialized and probably expensive component.


It would be cool and aero as hell to hide that in the frame. Some $$$$ though.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> It would be cool and aero as hell to hide that in the frame. Some $$$$ though.


Could probably hide the reservoir/cylinder in the bullhorn bar with a longer bar-plug for the brake lever.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

WiFi remote servos are the next thing which will put the servo in the caliper and totally eliminate the need for any cables at all. Archer have one for MTB shifters and brakes must be on the drawing board already.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Giant already has a master cylinder option that bolts on to the front of the stem. It's ugly as hell, and from what I'm told, it's had a few issues, but this is probably the general direction that TT bikes will go in the future. Stashing a module like that in the down tube wouldn't take a lot of engineering. 

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/ie/conduct-master-cyclinder


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Finx said:


> Giant already has a master cylinder option that bolts on to the front of the stem. It's ugly as hell, and from what I'm told, it's had a few issues, but this is probably the general direction that TT bikes will go in the future. Stashing a module like that in the down tube wouldn't take a lot of engineering.
> 
> https://www.giant-bicycles.com/ie/conduct-master-cyclinder


SRAM already have TT brake levers with the cylinder/reservoir built into the lever.

https://www.sram.com/sram/road/products/sram-s-900-aero-hrd-disc-brake

As do TRP:

https://www.trpcycling.com/product/hd-t910/

Odds are Giant's effort will be a unique proprietary thing that doesn't catch on I'd wager.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Looking through the photos on the tdf website most teams seem to be on rim brake bikes. BMC has some scattered disc brakes though it seems most were on rim for stage 4. Anyone on the new venge will be disk (so all the sprint stage winners up through stage 4). Anyone on the cannondale supersix will be on disc as well, but considering all the talk about discs taking over the percentage seems pretty low. 

Other than when on bikes only available in disc, the teams don't seem to be using them all that much. Sky, AG2R, rim. Anyone riding Canyons and Cervelo, Lapierre, Kuota, merida, Wilier, Cube also seem to be on rim as well. 

So far new disc only aero bikes seem to be the only discs I see. What will be more telling is how many of the specialized, trek, cdale riders stick to discs once we hit the mountains.

As a side note, based on an 11spd comment earlier in the thread, a rim brake roubaix is now available as a frame only option from specialized.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Cannondale had a slice last year with disc brakes that everyone was using. That the guys didn't use it yesterday is very interesting. 

Cervelo, likewise has a disc model, but apparently everyone hates them anyway and Cavendish openly complains that his Cervelo road bike is outdated and slow.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Cavendish might just like to whine in general, the S5 is still one of the fastest bikes out there in terms of aero and consistently does really well in the tour magazine aero tests. It lost out to the ViAS and Madone last time around but the difference was really small (pure aero numbers). Overall I think it still beat the venge due to not being as heavy with the madone being the overall winner.

https://www.tour-magazin.de/raeder/rennraeder/rad-test-aero-gegen-leichtbau/a45739.html


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

taodemon said:


> Cavendish might just like to whine in general, the S5 is still one of the fastest bikes out there in terms of aero and consistently does really well in the tour magazine aero tests.


LOL. might?


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Marc said:


> LOL. might?


I was trying to be nice.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

taodemon said:


> Looking through the photos on the tdf website most teams seem to be on rim brake bikes. BMC has some scattered disc brakes though it seems most were on rim for stage 4. Anyone on the new venge will be disk (so all the sprint stage winners up through stage 4). Anyone on the cannondale supersix will be on disc as well, but considering all the talk about discs taking over the percentage seems pretty low.
> 
> Other than when on bikes only available in disc, the teams don't seem to be using them all that much. Sky, AG2R, rim. Anyone riding Canyons and Cervelo, Lapierre, Kuota, merida, Wilier, Cube also seem to be on rim as well.
> 
> ...


There have been a few earnest posters but your response ranks among one of the best in a sea of trolling in this thread.
You ID'ed the notable dynamic. Surprising how few disc bikes in the peloton in spite of major bike brands so vehemently pushing discs and for obvious reasons. Pros aren't buying...or majority at least.

Thanks for your comment about the Roubaix being offered as a frameset with rim brakes. The Roubaix has been such a disappointment with the future shock. I look forward to the day when Spesh gets back to a performance endurance bike instead of turning the Roubaix into a gravel bike that can't fit gravel wide tires...something more like the Trek Domane gravel that will fit 35mm...a better bike without the pogo stick maintenance nightmare connected to the steerer.

Tomorrow on Stage 5 as CAT climbs come into play, look for even fewer discs as you suggest. Digging the racing this year. Today's stage was terrific without giving it away.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

First off who cares what pros are using? They have different requirements and ride under closed road conditions, so the pros "not buying" them doesn't really say anything about disc brakes. Additionally, Pros are just as much stuck in their ways as anyone and if I was a pro I would want to stick with what I know too. Unless everyone makes the switch to disc at the same time so there is no advantage/disadvantage (real or perceived), many riders are going to be cautious about making such a big change.
Peter Sagan illustrates the main thing holding back riders from using disc, wheel changes and neutral support 
https://www.velonews.com/2018/07/tour-de-france/sagan-commits-disc-brakes-not-roubaix-stage_471498



> Sagan said he will be racing on disc brakes throughout the Tour, but he is making an exception for the Roubaix stage because of concerns about swapping out wheels in case of a puncture or other mechanicals. Wheel changes can be a bit slower with disc brake-mounted wheels, but that concern is compounded over the cobblestones when punctures are more likely and chaos between team and neutral support ramps up out on the road.
> 
> Otherwise, Sagan said he is firmly committed to disc brakes in road racing.
> 
> “I was racing at the Tour de Suisse with the disc brakes, and I can say it’s a big advantage,” he said. “There is a big difference [with braking] compared to the rim brakes.”


With the weight limit and disc brake bikes already below that, you can't point to weight as being a disadvantage. And seeing how disc bikes keep winning on the flat stages, aero is not holding them back either.


Obviously the manufacturers are not pushing disc brakes that hard or all the pros would be using them, that is their job, they are part of the marketing machine everyone loves to hate.





.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't think any of the aero disc bikes are below the 6.8kg limit yet (new venge 7.1kg, Custom Sagan 7.69kg), the lightweight/climber bikes with disc yes. Both trek and specialized have their climbing bikes available with disc so we will see how many disc tarmacs and emondas show up since they seem to be the main disc representatives in the peloton. Despite his talk of braking advantage with discs I have a feeling Sagan will still be on his rim tarmac in the mountains.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> First off who cares what pros are using? They have different requirements and ride under closed road conditions, so the pros "not buying" them doesn't really say anything about disc brakes. Additionally, Pros are just as much stuck in their ways as anyone and if I was a pro I would want to stick with what I know too. Unless everyone makes the switch to disc at the same time so there is no advantage/disadvantage (real or perceived), many riders are going to be cautious about making such a big change.
> Peter Sagan illustrates the main thing holding back riders from using disc, wheel changes and neutral support
> https://www.velonews.com/2018/07/tour-de-france/sagan-commits-disc-brakes-not-roubaix-stage_471498
> 
> ...


You make some good points. Who cares? Every strong amateur who throws down 5 large for a bicycle. All below pro level on a bicycle are Walter Mitty wannabees...many poseurs. They emulate the pros to a fault. They run 5 inches of drop and never use the drops when they have such poor fitness and core strength their handlebar should be above their saddle height. That is how the world actually works. Maybe you are above it all. If so, you would be quite a rare critical thinker.

There is a point about the utilization of brakes comparing pros to amateur for sure and it is even geography specific or at least influenced by where we each live. Many in the mountains for example ride their brakes more than pros and may appreciate disc brakes on their bike when descending. The pros only want to descend faster. Where I come from too much braking will crash the pace line and get you kicked off the club ride. Strong braking is discouraged. My rim brakes are perhaps my least concern on the bike. That is why I look at manufacturers pushing discs with a cynical eye more directed toward their greed than my desire.

As to what the pros ride. I hope you know at some level it doesn't matter to them or to us. To a guy like Sagan he is going to beat most in the peloton on rim or disc or maybe by just dragging his feet. He is that good.

What is surprising and really the purpose of this thread and certainly not to relitigate the benefit of disc versus rim, but rather your last sentence. Big bike brands participate in races like the TdF for one reason and one reason only. For press aka Marketing. So far for example it has worked out pretty well for them if you have been watching the race. Of course they have the best riders in the world on their product which doesn't hurt. What is surprising of course is really the voice or lobby of pro teams and pros themselves. Because of the UCI weight limit, aero improvements etc with disc, it really doesn't matter what pros race but 'in spite of loss of marketing directing sheep aka Joe six pack to buying a disc brake bike' pros still choose rim brake bikes. Now that is striking and the reason for this thread. We the consumer don't always get we want, have a voice or stuck with crappy designs if led...from press fit BB's to single bolt proprietary seat posts.

Many of us want a choice of rim versus disc because of where we live and how we ride. Will see how it plays out but the trajectory of more disc brake bikes hasn't been favorable for many of us that see a sea change. Btw, I want the option of a disc brake bike for road and off road. Just don't want rim brakes to go away on the road and pros are fighting the trend as well at least at this point.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

taodemon said:


> I don't think any of the aero disc bikes are below the 6.8kg limit yet (new venge 7.1kg, Custom Sagan 7.69kg), the lightweight/climber bikes with disc yes. Both trek and specialized have their climbing bikes available with disc so we will see how many disc tarmacs and emondas show up since they seem to be the main disc representatives in the peloton. Despite his talk of braking advantage with discs I have a feeling Sagan will still be on his rim tarmac in the mountains.


Your last point is the best and can't wait to see tomorrow. Strong hunch in spite of Sagan riding his Venge VIAS disc on flat stages, look for his trusty Tarmac rim in the mountains, right on the 15 lb UCI limit.


----------



## rideit (Feb 8, 2005)

Finx said:


> Giant already has a master cylinder option that bolts on to the front of the stem. It's ugly as hell, and from what I'm told, it's had a few issues, but this is probably the general direction that TT bikes will go in the future. Stashing a module like that in the down tube wouldn't take a lot of engineering.
> 
> https://www.giant-bicycles.com/ie/conduct-master-cyclinder


I just threw one of those away...didn't even bother trying to e-bay it.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

It doesn’t matter what the pros are riding because historically they’re a bunch of luddites. I’m not to well versed in the history of pro cycling but I’m pretty sure it took them a surprisingly long time to adpot anything new. How long did it take pros to accept carbon frames, 9/10/11 speed, compact cranks, a cassette with anything larger than 25t, electronic shifting, wider tires, aero wheels, aero frames, aero road helmets and shorter crank arms? Despite most of those having clear cut advantages in racing. Especially aero frames / wheels and wider tires which are undoubtably faster.

After taking into account they’re a bunch of stuck up luddites you then need to factor in the mixed support for wheels in case of a flat. Given the peloton’s history the disc usage this year is about what I expected.


----------



## zephxiii (Nov 22, 2013)

I wonder how many legs are gonna get sliced off this year. I'll be watching closely with popcorn for the bloodbath(s)!


----------



## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Coolhand said:


> It would be cool and aero as hell to hide that in the frame. Some $$$$ though.


That would be nice but I’m not sure if it can be done. The reservoir needs to be the highest point so air naturally rises to the top and out of the braking system. I’m pretty sure the master cylinder needs to be right at the lever too. Unless they use a cable or wifi servo to actuate the brakes from inside the frame.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> It doesn’t matter what the pros are riding because historically they’re a bunch of luddites. I’m not to well versed in the history of pro cycling but I’m pretty sure it took them a surprisingly long time to adpot anything new. How long did it take pros to accept carbon frames, 9/10/11 speed, compact cranks, a cassette with anything larger than 25t, electronic shifting, wider tires, aero wheels, aero frames, aero road helmets and shorter crank arms? Despite most of those having clear cut advantages in racing. Especially aero frames / wheels and wider tires which are undoubtably faster.
> 
> After taking into account they’re a bunch of stuck up luddites you then need to factor in the mixed support for wheels in case of a flat. Given the peloton’s history the disc usage this year is about what I expected.


I will simply modify what you wrote. Pros stick to convention because they are all champions beating the competition on the equipment they raced. They dance with their partner they know to be reliable.

You are a bit sweeping in your comments about 'being faster' Do you think disc brakes are faster than rim? I don't. How about electric shifting? I don't How about aero frames in the mountains? I don't. Look for Sagan to switch from his Venge to his Tarmac in the mountains. You will see tomorrow.


----------



## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

zephxiii said:


> I wonder how many legs are gonna get sliced off this year. I'll be watching closely with popcorn for the bloodbath(s)!


The elephant in the peloton. Perhaps the biggest divide between pros and us...well maybe not. 
But, they end up on the deck 'a lot more' than we do. Blood sport. Not if another pro is going to get hacked by a rotor, but rather when. Question is, what will be done about it.


----------



## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Despite it being a flat I've seen photos of at least two bora riders on rim tarmacs on today's stage. I recognized one as Rafa, no idea on the other. For quickstep I saw at least one on a rim tarmac as well (Philippe Gilbert I believe). 

There is a good chance the pro teams never even got the disc tarmacs at all, and if there was some clear advantage to having them I'm sure they would have requested them.


----------



## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

taodemon said:


> Despite it being a flat I've seen photos of at least two bora riders on rim tarmacs on today's stage. I recognized one as Rafa, no idea on the other. For quickstep I saw at least one on a rim tarmac as well (Philippe Gilbert I believe).
> 
> There is a good chance the pro teams never even got the disc tarmacs at all, and if there was some clear advantage to having them I'm sure they would have requested them.


^^ +1


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> You make some good points. Who cares? Every strong amateur who throws down 5 large for a bicycle. All below pro level on a bicycle are Walter Mitty wannabees...many poseurs. They emulate the pros to a fault. They run 5 inches of drop and never use the drops when they have such poor fitness and core strength their handlebar should be above their saddle height. That is how the world actually works. Maybe you are above it all. If so, you would be quite a rare critical thinker.



I think you vastly over estimate how many "wannabes" emulate the pros. I can't think of anyone I've ever met that cares what the pros ride, let alone try and be like them, most people in the US don't even follow racing and if they do it's causally
I also have been working part time at a friends bike shop and have never had anyone reference any pros in their purchase, in fact all of the big "poseurs" who bought seriously expensive bikes ($10-15k+) got conservative bike fits that put them in a rather upright position. Another friend owns a shop and i asked him about this a while back and he said the only time people have asked for something that pros have is when they are trying to find something like a pair of cool glasses they saw. 





> There is a point about the utilization of brakes comparing pros to amateur for sure and it is even geography specific or at least influenced by where we each live. Many in the mountains for example ride their brakes more than pros and may appreciate disc brakes on their bike when descending. The pros only want to descend faster. My rim brakes are perhaps my least concern on the bike.


Because you are a flatlander. I do not ride my brakes down the mountain, I am a fast and aggressive descender most of the time, I very much appreciate disc brakes. But unlike a pro, I still have to worry about cars and other hazards on the road and I can't cut across all lanes of the road to straighten the line out so I have to brake and slow more going into corners than a pro would. Pros don't need to use the brakes as much, so there is less advantage to disc brakes for them than a consumer, so it is no surprise that they aren't rushing to disc brakes. Not to mention, it's a big risk to try and win a race on the descent, both in strategy and safety. 




> Where I come from too much braking will crash the pace line and get you kicked off the club ride. Strong braking is discouraged.


Yeah and? That is the same in any group ride and if you are trying to imply that disc brakes are more dangerous for that you would be wrong. In fact, I was surprised when I went disc at how much better they were for controlling your speed in a peloton than it was on rim brakes, you know better modulation does that. 




> That is why I look at manufacturers pushing discs with a cynical eye more directed toward their greed than my desire.


So if they were pushing something that you desired is it not greed then? 

When I first started riding consumers and pros were on 22lb+ bikes, but now we are on 15lb bikes because of all that greedy innovation, where's your outrage? 







> What is surprising and really the purpose of this thread and certainly not to relitigate the benefit of disc versus rim, but rather your last sentence. Big bike brands participate in races like the TdF for one reason and one reason only.  For press aka Marketing. So far for example it has worked out pretty well for them if you have been watching the race. Of course they have the best riders in the world on their product which doesn't hurt. What is surprising of course is really the voice or lobby of pro teams and pros themselves. Because of the UCI weight limit, aero improvements etc with disc, it really doesn't matter what pros race but 'in spite of loss of marketing directing sheep aka Joe six pack to buying a disc brake bike' pros still choose rim brake bikes. Now that is striking and the reason for this thread. We the consumer don't always get we want, have a voice or stuck with crappy designs if led...from press fit BB's to single bolt proprietary seat posts.


any thread that references disc brakes is going to become a disc v rim debate because the anti-disc crowd can't help themselves from complaining about it. 
And again, you are assuming the reasoning for the pros not using disc is because they don't see any performance gain, but you are ignoring all the other factors like wheel changes and logistics that are more likely the reasoning behind the decision as noted in Sagans comments 
And the marketing in pro racing is more about brand recognition than selling a specific product that the pros ride. In fact it just the opposite, if they even remotely care about racing in the first place, people more often buy the bike then follow the pro team that uses that brand. 
And considering that the shop I'm at sells bikes that come both ways and we've sold almost all of them as disc brake shows me that not many care that the pros are not using disc




And finally, everything I just wrote I have written many times before in all the other disc brake threads, why did you even need to start this thread? There is nothing new to be learned and it is the same thing over and over again 


.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> You are a bit sweeping in your comments about 'being faster' Do you think disc brakes are faster than rim? I don't. How about electric shifting? I don't How about aero frames in the mountains? I don't. Look for Sagan to switch from his Venge to his Tarmac in the mountains. You will see tomorrow.


I don’t feel like discs are faster than rim at the moment. Even on technical descents in the dry. Going fast on technical descents is all about corner speed and being as aerodynamic as possible. You may gain a few tenths of a second in a braking zone with better brakes but that is pretty insignificant. I do see discs being faster in the future with more aerodynamic wheels and frames along with being able to use a better selection of tires. Cannondale’s SystemSix data seems to show using disc brakes allows them to design a more aerodynamic bike.

I don’t think electronic shifting is quicker but it is more reliable and less effort to shift.

The pros are riding aero frames that are only about 1lbs heavier than a climbing bike which will make no difference if a rider’s legs are good that day. If you do lose a few seconds on a climb from that 1lbs a more aerodynamic bike can gain far more time back at 50+mph on a downhill.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

11spd said:


> You make some good points. Who cares? Every strong amateur who throws down 5 large for a bicycle. All below pro level on a bicycle are Walter Mitty wannabees...many poseurs. They emulate the pros to a fault. They run 5 inches of drop and never use the drops when they have such poor fitness and core strength their handlebar should be above their saddle height. That is how the world actually works. Maybe you are above it all. If so, you would be quite a rare critical thinker.


I'm a weak amateur and I dropped 5 large on my SW Tarmac Disc because I liked the components, the color, and I felt that the discs offered me a bit more where my fat butt was concerned on downhills. I have spacers, run a 100mm stem, use the drops when I feel like it, and wear lots of PI kit. I am guilty of tying my kit together to the point of being told I'm a fashionista, but that's about it. 

Oh yea, I've since bought a ViAS disc (another killer deal) and an Allez (the one used by Hagens Berman, and no not for that reason). 

So I guess my point is I ride what I want, not what the pros do. I ride what I like, and what gives me the best performance for the type of riding that I do, at a price I am comfortable with. In other words, I'm my own man. Yay.



11spd said:


> There is a point about the utilization of brakes comparing pros to amateur for sure and it is even geography specific or at least influenced by where we each live. Many in the mountains for example ride their brakes more than pros and may appreciate disc brakes on their bike when descending. The pros only want to descend faster. Where I come from too much braking will crash the pace line and get you kicked off the club ride. Strong braking is discouraged. My rim brakes are perhaps my least concern on the bike. That is why I look at manufacturers pushing discs with a cynical eye more directed toward their greed than my desire.


Good points that I agree with to an extent, but I feel that discs do allow for you to go faster while also allowing for harder, later braking. Pretty sure I've seen that said more than once, but maybe not.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> I think you vastly over estimate how many "wannabes" emulate the pros. I can't think of anyone I've ever met that cares what the pros ride, let alone try and be like them, most people in the US don't even follow racing and if they do it's causally
> I also have been working part time at a friends bike shop and have never had anyone reference any pros in their purchase, in fact all of the big "poseurs" who bought seriously expensive bikes ($10-15k+) got conservative bike fits that put them in a rather upright position. Another friend owns a shop and i asked him about this a while back and he said the only time people have asked for something that pros have is when they are trying to find something like a pair of cool glasses they saw.
> 
> 
> ...


Your last sentence really underscores the blind spot people have when it comes to disc versus rim discussion. I have stated probably five times in this thread why it was started and it has nothing to do with the efficacy of either brake type.

Pretty clear however this thread is well outside the scope of this forum. I do believe a handful of people here understand why it worthy of discussion as it relates to the TdF but you don't.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Wetworks said:


> I'm a weak amateur and I dropped 5 large on my SW Tarmac Disc because I liked the components, the color, and I felt that the discs offered me a bit more where my fat butt was concerned on downhills. I have spacers, run a 100mm stem, use the drops when I feel like it, and wear lots of PI kit. I am guilty of tying my kit together to the point of being told I'm a fashionista, but that's about it.
> 
> Oh yea, I've since bought a ViAS disc (another killer deal) and an Allez (the one used by Hagens Berman, and no not for that reason).
> 
> ...


No you don't. You ride what the pros do. Venge, Tarmac and even Al Allez Sprint is raced at the pro level. You ride what the pros do. You are simply in denial like most Walter Mitty aks fashionista aka fat (your words) poseurs.
Sorry, but you disagreed with me and pretty clear you are wrong. Very few in life go their own way because of that thing Freud coined ego...maybe you have heard of it. 
All said, you are of course perfectly within your right and what pays the light bill at Specialized.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> Your last sentence really underscores the blind spot people have when it comes to disc versus rim discussion. I have stated probably five times in this thread why it was started and it has nothing to do with the efficacy of either brake type.
> 
> Pretty clear however this thread is well outside the scope of this forum. I do believe a handful of people here understand why it worthy of discussion as it relates to the TdF but you don't.



Nonsense! You belie this secret discussion you are claiming with comments like "That is why I look at manufacturers pushing discs with a cynical eye more directed toward their greed than my desire." and talk of the sheep being directed to buy disc brakes, and the "pros aren't buying them, etc.. Clearly your motive is to try and show that disc brakes are not needed on road bikes because pros don't want them. You've tried to make this point many times before in all the other disc brake threads 

You knew well it would turn into a rim vs disc debate, it always does. Someone could make a post asking about which disc brake to buy and inevitably someone will come in and start whining about how disc brakes are heavier, more maintenance, how they can skid with rim brakes, etc.. 





.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> No you don't. You ride what the pros do. Venge, Tarmac and even Al Allez Sprint is raced at the pro level. You ride what the pros do. You are simply in denial like most Walter Mitty aks fashionista aka fat (your words) poseurs.
> Sorry, but you disagreed with me and pretty clear you are wrong. Very few in life go their own way because of that thing Freud coined ego...maybe you have heard of it.
> All said, you are of course perfectly within your right and what pays the light bill at Specialized.



Or maybe he went into the bike shop and liked the way they looked and rode 



.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Nonsense! You belie this secret discussion you are claiming with comments like "That is why I look at manufacturers pushing discs with a cynical eye more directed toward their greed than my desire." and talk of the sheep being directed to buy disc brakes, and the "pros aren't buying them, etc.. Clearly your motive is to try and show that disc brakes are not needed on road bikes because pros don't want them. You've tried to make this point many times before in all the other disc brake threads
> 
> You knew well it would turn into a rim vs disc debate, it always does. Someone could make a post asking about which disc brake to buy and inevitably someone will come in and start whining about how disc brakes are heavier, more maintenance, how they can skid with rim brakes, etc..
> .


You can think that but you failed the high school English class theme assignment we all hated btw but because you miss the point of the thread.
The theme of this thread is...preference the pros have for rim, supercedes marketing pressure no doubt big brand sellers are putting on teams and pros to ride disc because they have gone all in to tool disc brake bikes among their flagship models.

TdF is a coming out celebration aka marketing extravagancy for high end bicycles Joe six pack can afford but doesn't need.

The backlash that pros and teams feel is less important than riding what they 'believe will win' aka predominantly rim brake bikes.

The dynamic is notable. You conflate it with more generic disc versus rim debates. Not what it is about. It is about surprise the teams and pros feel so strongly to request rim brake bikes knowing there will be big brand resistance because bike guys pick up on pros preferring rim brakes when time to buy. Its is about the TdF, the biggest marketing effort of the year for bike brands.

I spelled it out for you 'again'. Take it for what it is...not a generic rim versus disc brake thread.


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

11spd said:


> Pretty clear however this thread is well outside the scope of this forum.


Yeah, maybe the MENSA forum has a sub-forum on disc brakes.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11speed isn't into the whole Brevity thing.

derp


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ok boys, this is just in, Peter Sagan's Venge Disc bike for TdF. Take a look.






I shall clue you in to the fun part. Go to the *6:44* mark and watch the guy spin the rear wheel. Notice anything? Disc pads rubbing sound. Yep, that pinging sound, disc rub. Fun.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> You can think that but you failed the high school English class theme assignment we all hated btw but because you miss the point of the thread.
> The theme of this thread is...preference the pros have for rim, supercedes marketing pressure no doubt big brand sellers are putting on teams and pros to ride disc because they have gone all in to tool disc brake bikes among their flagship models.
> 
> TdF is a coming out celebration aka marketing extravagancy for high end bicycles Joe six pack can afford but doesn't need.
> ...



Seems it is you you who failed English class, what I said is no matter what you think or want the theme of the discussion to be about, the moment you made it about disc brakes it became a rim vs disc brake thread. Again, someone could make an innocuous post asking which disc bike to buy and people will inevitably turn it into a disc v rim brake discussion. I'm not conflating it with anything other than the reality of the internets and the crybabies who have to constantly complain about disc brakes. For as smart as you claim to be, you should have been able to recognize that.
And what point could you possibly be making by frequently rehashing your idea that the pros are shunning disc brakes for rim other than insinuating that disc brake is inferior? Did you forget all the posts in all the other threads you have made in the past? You set a precedent 

And only the biased anti-disc bike guys are picking up on pros "preferring" rim brakes, the rest of us are smart enough to realize that the pros reasons have no bearing on consumer riders and don't care what the pros ride when it is time to buy. Again, it is about branding more than the specific product, a Pinarello is still a brand that won the TDF whether it's rim or disc, Gan or F10. And again, if the big brand sellers were really putting all this marketing pressure on the pros to ride discs as you say, they would be riding them, that's their job


And lastly, only a handful of riders are on aero bikes despite the manufacturers also marketing those as being better/faster, why aren't you making threads about how many pros are resisting aero bikes? And you never answered, is it still greed on the manufacturers part if they were pushing to market something that you think you want? 



.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> ok boys, this is just in, Peter Sagan's Venge Disc bike for TdF. Take a look.
> 
> 
> 
> I shall clue you in to the fun part. Go to the *6:44* mark and watch the guy spin the rear wheel. Notice anything? Disc pads rubbing sound. Yep, that pinging sound, disc rub. Fun.


Beyond the ping of his fingers leaving the spokes, it's hard to tell if it is the freewheel (mine sounds just like that and my brakes don't rub) or the disc. If it is disc rub, all that says is that his mechanics didn't do a good job of setting it up. 



.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I just came back from a week in the French Alps. On the last day I rode La Marmotte with 7500 riders. I barely saw a single disc equipped bike. These are among the most serious amateur riders out there.

By the way, this is an incredible race. Highly recommend it. I rode it after doing a four day tour in the alps starting near Geneva and finishing in the village of alpe de huez(all in France)


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Seems it is you you who failed English class, what I said is no matter what you think or want the theme of the discussion to be about, the moment you made it about disc brakes it became a rim vs disc brake thread. Again, someone could make an innocuous post asking which disc bike to buy and people will inevitably turn it into a disc v rim brake discussion. I'm not conflating it with anything other than the reality of the internets and the crybabies who have to constantly complain about disc brakes. For as smart as you claim to be, you should have been able to recognize that.
> And what point could you possibly be making by frequently rehashing your idea that the pros are shunning disc brakes for rim other than insinuating that disc brake is inferior? Did you forget all the posts in all the other threads you have made in the past? You set a precedent
> 
> And only the biased anti-disc bike guys are picking up on pros "preferring" rim brakes, the rest of us are smart enough to realize that the pros reasons have no bearing on consumer riders and don't care what the pros ride when it is time to buy. Again, it is about branding more than the specific product, a Pinarello is still a brand that won the TDF whether it's rim or disc, Gan or F10. And again, if the big brand sellers were really putting all this marketing pressure on the pros to ride discs as you say, they would be riding them, that's their job
> ...


You make two points even though I believe you are wrong and the rest you default to rim versus disc drivel. Sorry if I disagree with much of what you write. I don't line up with the pros. Your post contains a toxic reaction to me because you believe I am in the anti disc camp. I am not. I am in the observational camp...a camp that seems to elude much of the forum including you who hyper focus on the veracity of disc versus rim...you being a disc fan boy. If I lived in the mountains, I would be on disc. I have said it many times before. You watch Stage 5 in the TdF this morning...the first climbing stage. You will see rim out number disc brake bikes likely 5:1...maybe 10:1. You watch. The opposite of how I feel because I can build a light enough disc bike to get up the mountain and I want the security of disc going down it because I will be on the brakes a lot more than the pros. I hope you understand the difference between pros and I...where we come down. On flat stages where disc brakes aren't needed, I want rim brakes like the pros because discs have no advantage. In fact there are more discs on flat stages you will find in the peloton....or least notable because stage winners have been on the Venge Disc which was a failure with rim brakes...the bike wouldn't stop even after a design change after a year the VIAS was released and so Specialized went to disc for the VIAS. Aero Madone doesn't have that problem with integrated rim brakes for aerodynamics. Failure of Specialized engineers to make the VIAS rim version stop.

*You wrote:*
*And only the biased anti-disc bike guys are picking up on pros "preferring" rim brakes, the rest of us are smart enough to realize that the pros reasons have no bearing on consumer riders and don't care what the pros ride when it is time to buy. 
*
Who said anybody that buys race bikes are smart? Most of the fast guys I know are sheep. They know nothing of bike tech. I help them in fact with their bike shop failures. I am the tech guru of my club and help members solve their most difficult problems. They buy what is on the bike shop floor. Oh, disc brakes stop better. Disc must be better. Sheep. Big brand makes rely on the lemming mentality. Its called marketing. That is what is notable and the purpose of this thread...pro riders and teams bucking the trend of marketing which pays their bills. As bike makers shill disc brakes 'because of higher profit' amateur bike riders aka sheep line up at the local bike shop where now 80% of top race bikes on the floor are disc. Sheep. Not saying you are a sheep. You might be. You seem to have an unhealthy dose of disc love.:blush2: You may have your reasons for wanting disc. I hope you live somewhere with elevation change. If you are riding them on the flat you are wasting your money unless you ride in the rain with carbon wheels all the time.


Second issue.
*You wrote:
**And lastly, only a handful of riders are on aero bikes despite the manufacturers also marketing those as being better/faster, why aren't you making threads about how many pros are resisting aero bikes? And you never answered, is it still greed on the manufacturers part if they were pushing to market something that you think you want? 
*
If you don't understand why pros in some stages are on aero specific bikes versus on more conventional tube bikes in climbing stages, then you don't understand bike tech. This may in fact explain your disc love...lack of technical grasp.

More and more bikes...all bikes are becoming aero. Pinarello that you mention even has a F8 version of their tall 'endurance bike' with aero cues. Specialized has incorporated aero cues in their round tube Tarmac you will see more in the climbing stages. The peloton was on the VIAS for flat stages if Specialized sponsored.

Aero and climbing properties tend to conflict. Not sure you get that. Many of the aero bikes in peloton like the VIAS that has won two stages and with seconds, was not at the 15 lb UCI limit as mentioned in this thread by an adroit poster. Round tube bikes climb better. They are lighter and are stiffer where desired to get up the mountain better. You will see more round tube bikes in the climbing stages. Also, ironically and again the purpose of this thread, you will see more round tube bikes with 'rim brakes' in the climbing stages. Pros have no trouble getting down the mountain on rim brakes where amateurs 'may' be better served by disc. 

The point of this thread lost is there is way more rim brake bikes in the pro peloton in spite of big brand mfrs who make more profit on disc brake bikes shilling disc brake bikes and crowding out rim brake race bikes on bike shop floors. A disconnect of marketing and supply. A rare defiance of this choreographed dance of marketing supply. Maybe you don't come from the world of big business and don't get it. 

As Trek_5200 mentioned, many racers still prefer rim brake bikes 'in spite of the marketing push of big brand bike makers'. That is what is notable. The rest is 'your' rehashing of rim versus disc, which is better. There is no universal better in spite of big bike brands making it harder to buy a top rim brake racing bike.
​<strike></strike>
​


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## vic bastige (Jan 22, 2004)

Man, you sure have commitment. Is this really that cat from down under?


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

vic bastige said:


> Man, you sure have commitment. Is this really that cat from down under?


Make a cogent point or leave the thread. I am the man.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Trek_5200 said:


> I just came back from a week in the French Alps. On the last day I rode La Marmotte with 7500 riders. I barely saw a single disc equipped bike. These are among the most serious amateur riders out there.
> 
> By the way, this is an incredible race. Highly recommend it. I rode it after doing a four day tour in the alps starting near Geneva and finishing in the village of alpe de huez(all in France)


Thanks for that. What a treat. Living the dream. Wonderful. Hope to do it one day.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> ok boys, this is just in, Peter Sagan's Venge Disc bike for TdF. Take a look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why he came in second in the sprint? :wink:

Excellent video. Thanks for sharing that. Would like to learn more about Sagan's VIAS 'threaded BB'. If Praxis like threaded BB30 type...or the BB is actually threaded. Wouldn't be surprised if the BB is actually threaded as many of the pro bikes are custom and wouldn't be surprised if we are stuck with crappy BB30 and a pro like Sagan gets a threaded BB. Lets see. What kind of watts can Sagan lay down in the sprint and he does just fine on a threaded BB?
Press fit has to be the biggest stain on the bike industry. For all those that fail to the palpable irony of marketing in this thread, look no farther that the plethora of BB's spawned by 'each bike company' to set themselves apart, to make their bicycles 'exclusive'. Different. Notice I didn't say better. Quite the contrary. The road is littered with broken and creaky BB's with owners scratching their heads after paying $5K for bicycle.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

11spd said:


> Make a cogent point or leave the thread.


We will when you do.



11spd said:


> I am the man.


:Yawn:


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Lombard said:


> We will when you do.
> 
> 
> 
> :Yawn:


Still waiting. 
Its like invention. I don't get it someone asked. Why wasn't the cell phone invented in the last century.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Specialized teams were almost all on aero bikes with a few exceptions on tarmacs which are "aero" climbing bikes. Does sky use anything besides the F10s (aero bike)? 

Personally I'll go with an aero bike almost every time unless there is a noticeable weight penalty, which has mostly been the case with new wave of disc aero bikes though not due to discs specifically though they don't help in this aspect. The older generation of aero bikes while not having the weight penalty probably didn't ride (comfort) or have the same handling qualities of the climbing bikes. That said these things have slowly been converging. They have been working on making aero bikes ride more like climbing bikes while attempting to reduce weight and for climbing bikes they have been working in aero aspects. Someday we might have a single bike for both but we aren't quite there yet.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

MoPho said:


> Or maybe he went into the bike shop and liked the way they looked and rode
> 
> 
> 
> .


No no, he's right. Clearly I'm unable to make up my own mind and am simply a slave to marketing whims. His pseudo-psychoanalysis is brilliant. I'm going to seek out a therapist now.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> I shall clue you in to the fun part. Go to the *6:44* mark and watch the guy spin the rear wheel. Notice anything? Disc pads rubbing sound. Yep, that pinging sound, disc rub. Fun.


That's insane. I wouldn't ride that bike specifically because of that. Absolutely nuts when the world champion riding the (supposedly) best equipment available with his own mechanic at the world's biggest race has that issue.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

TT bike with Disc goodness. https://www.bmc-switzerland.com/us-en/timemachine-disc/


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Beyond the ping of his fingers leaving the spokes, it's hard to tell if it is the freewheel (mine sounds just like that and my brakes don't rub) or the disc.


No, that's not hard to tell at all. It's VERY distinct (you can hear it when he winds it up in the opposite direction and then after he lets go) and completely different from the freehub.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

11spd said:


> As Trek_5200 mentioned, *many racers still prefer rim brake bikes* 'in spite of the marketing push of big brand bike makers'. That is what is notable. The rest is 'your' rehashing of rim versus disc, which is better. There is no universal better in spite of big bike brands making it harder to buy a top rim brake racing bike.
> ​<strike></strike>
> ​


I'm a cat 1 and race in quite a few big races across 9-10 states. There is one elite team on discs (Trek Emondas) and a smattering of individual guys on disc brakes at all of the big races I've done in the region. Everyone else is on rim brakes. 

And these are all cat 1s and 2s who care only about performance. 

I've seen some 4s and 5s with disc brakes, but a very small minority.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> That's insane. I wouldn't ride that bike specifically because of that. Absolutely nuts when the world champion riding the (supposedly) best equipment available with his own mechanic at the world's biggest race has that issue.


thank you mah mang. See man I know you have a racer mentality at heart and this sort of imperfection is indeed grabbing your attention. We're talking Word Tour level equipment for a World Tour big name, and this happens. I wonder how would they fix this issue during a race? swap bike?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

11spd said:


> Excellent video. Thanks for sharing that. Would like to learn more about Sagan's VIAS 'threaded BB'. If Praxis like threaded BB30 type...or the BB is actually threaded. Wouldn't be surprised if the BB is actually threaded as many of the pro bikes are custom and wouldn't be surprised if we are stuck with crappy BB30 and a pro like Sagan gets a threaded BB.


There's a rule that riders can't have anything custom that isn't available to the general public. 

It's specifically why Adam Hansen has to offer to make and sell shoes for people(like the ones he wears). Also why the $22000 US Felt track bike was offered for sale to the general public (still haven't heard of anyone buying one, but maybe they're out there).


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> You make two points even though I believe you are wrong and the rest you default to rim versus disc drivel. Sorry if I disagree with much of what you write. I don't line up with the pros. Your post contains a toxic reaction to me because you believe I am in the anti disc camp. I am not. I am in the observational camp...a camp that seems to elude much of the forum including you who hyper focus on the veracity of disc versus rim...you being a disc fan boy. If I lived in the mountains, I would be on disc. I have said it many times before. You watch Stage 5 in the TdF this morning...the first climbing stage. You will see rim out number disc brake bikes likely 5:1...maybe 10:1. You watch. The opposite of how I feel because I can build a light enough disc bike to get up the mountain and I want the security of disc going down it because I will be on the brakes a lot more than the pros. I hope you understand the difference between pros and I...where we come down. On flat stages where disc brakes aren't needed, I want rim brakes like the pros because discs have no advantage. In fact there are more discs on flat stages you will find in the peloton....or least notable because stage winners have been on the Venge Disc which was a failure with rim brakes...the bike wouldn't stop even after a design change after a year the VIAS was released and so Specialized went to disc for the VIAS. Aero Madone doesn't have that problem with integrated rim brakes for aerodynamics. Failure of Specialized engineers to make the VIAS rim version stop.
> 
> *You wrote:*
> *And only the biased anti-disc bike guys are picking up on pros "preferring" rim brakes, the rest of us are smart enough to realize that the pros reasons have no bearing on consumer riders and don't care what the pros ride when it is time to buy.
> ...



I am also in the observational camp and I observe your are full of sh!t. You also seem to have severe short and long term memory loss as you can't even remember what you wrote from top to bottom nor anything you've written in the past (we've played this game many times before and I've told you why I like disc more times than I can count). You completely contradict yourself, you start off saying you support the idea of disc brakes and don't align with the pros then follow up in the next paragraph with the bike companies shill disc brakes to sheep/lemmings. you can't have it both ways chief. 


And spare me the condescending explanation of aero bikes, the point is if they are so much better all the pros would be on aero bikes for the flat stages and then switch to climbing bikes for the mountains, but most of the pros are not on aero bikes even on flat stages so your same stupid point that they are bucking the marketing by choosing not to use aero bikes could be applied







.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> No, that's not hard to tell at all. It's VERY distinct (you can hear it when he winds it up in the opposite direction and then after he lets go) and completely different from the freehub.



Again, that's an issue with the mechanic. Noises on my bike drive me crazy, I have 12k miles on my disc bike and the only time I get any rub noise is after a hard braking event it will happen for about 15s until the brakes cool, and even then it depends on which wheels I am using. I've also built maybe a dozen disc brake bikes and you can make it so they are quiet
Additionally, rim brakes are not immune to rub either, I rode them for 25 years and have experienced it plenty, in fact on my previous bike I had to carry around a brake centering wrench because the Sram Red caliper would frequently go out of whack and rub the wheel (especially annoying on carbon wheels)


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Why he came in second in the sprint? :wink:
> 
> Excellent video. Thanks for sharing that. Would like to learn more about Sagan's VIAS 'threaded BB'. If Praxis like threaded BB30 type...or the BB is actually threaded. Wouldn't be surprised if the BB is actually threaded as many of the pro bikes are custom and wouldn't be surprised if we are stuck with crappy BB30 and a pro like Sagan gets a threaded BB. Lets see. What kind of watts can Sagan lay down in the sprint and he does just fine on a threaded BB?
> Press fit has to be the biggest stain on the bike industry. For all those that fail to the palpable irony of marketing in this thread, look no farther that the plethora of BB's spawned by 'each bike company' to set themselves apart, to make their bicycles 'exclusive'. Different. Notice I didn't say better. Quite the contrary. The road is littered with broken and creaky BB's with owners scratching their heads after paying $5K for bicycle.


He's probably using this BB https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/sport/shop/bottom-brackets/bb30-shimano-road/ Around the bearings is still "press fit" into the frame but the center threads together. I put a Wheels Manufacturing BB with the same design into my bike to fit my Ultegra crank which replaced a Praxis PF30. It's an awesome design and I think the manufactures would be complete fools if they don't adopt it as the sole BB design (which they probably won't). The threads pull the BB together seating the bearings into the frame. If you need to remove the BB then simply unthread it and the bearings are pushed out. No creaking and the manufactures don't need to cut threads into a BB shell.

That is pretty pathetic to hear disc rub. He might like a very tight brake lever which will inevitably make the pads very close to the rotor. Shimano have already been trying to find ways around this with their "servo wave action" to space out the pads without making the brake lever have a long pull. They've had it for years now and it helps a little but hopefully someone can improve on it.

None of my bikes have disc rub but you need to accept at least some free play in the brake lever to achieve it.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Again, that's an issue with the mechanic. Noises on my bike drive me crazy, I have 12k miles on my disc bike and the only time I get any rub noise is after a hard braking event it will happen for about 15s until the brakes cool, and even then it depends on which wheels I am using. I've also built maybe a dozen disc brake bikes and you can make it so they are quiet
> Additionally, rim brakes are not immune to rub either, I rode them for 25 years and have experienced it plenty, in fact on my previous bike I had to carry around a brake centering wrench because the Sram Red caliper would frequently go out of whack and rub the wheel (especially annoying on carbon wheels)


Shocker MoPho you had issues with brake rub on rim brake bikes being the bike wizard you are...lol.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Shocker MoPho you had issues with brake rub on rim brake bikes being the bike wizard you are...lol.


So you've never had a post mount caliper twist a tiny bit causing brake rub before?


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> He's probably using this BB https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/sport/shop/bottom-brackets/bb30-shimano-road/ Around the bearings is still "press fit" into the frame but the center threads together. I put a Wheels Manufacturing BB with the same design into my bike to fit my Ultegra crank which replaced a Praxis PF30. It's an awesome design and I think the manufactures would be complete fools if they don't adopt it as the sole BB design (which they probably won't). The threads pull the BB together seating the bearings into the frame. If you need to remove the BB then simply unthread it and the bearings are pushed out. No creaking and the manufactures don't need to cut threads into a BB shell.
> 
> That is pretty pathetic to hear disc rub. He might like a very tight brake lever which will inevitably make the pads very close to the rotor. Shimano have already been trying to find ways around this with their "servo wave action" to space out the pads without making the brake lever have a long pull. They've had it for years now and it helps a little but hopefully someone can improve on it.
> 
> None of my bikes have disc rub but you need to accept at least some free play in the brake lever to achieve it.


Good catch. Thanks Dave. Believe you are correct. Pretty funny, or sad when a race team deviates from design intent for the BB i.e. away from BB30 and mount bearings outside the BB shell. Sad that bike makers simply don't go BSA and the public is stuck with the bill if we want to go to a sleeve as well. Certainly cheaper solutions versus what the great Sagan uses.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> So you've never had a post mount caliper twist a tiny bit causing brake rub before?


You don't know my background nor do I care to discuss it here. No...or not at least in the last 30 years for bikes I have set up. If a bike is in a crash, sure. I also don't run my brakes too tight...prefer a bit of travel to the lever.

As often discussed but way over the head of MoPho and his pay grade is...saving grace with rim brakes is ability to loosen the cam on the caliper to open the spacing between pads 'on the fly' aka on the bike in the heat of the race. Don't have this capability with disc brakes and this matters to racers because as many know brake rub slows you down and racers don't like that. 

A further nuance of the excellent evolution of rim caliper brakes is...this cam action is generally 'serrated' in function such that pad spacing can be 'tuned' on the fly for still effective brake function when increasing spacing. Not a binary all open function for example which would render the brake ineffective if opening it up all the way to get the wheel off. Now MoPho will read this and not understand. But I am sure some of you other guys will get it...for you.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> I am also in the observational camp and I observe your are full of sh!t. You also seem to have severe short and long term memory loss as you can't even remember what you wrote from top to bottom nor anything you've written in the past (we've played this game many times before and I've told you why I like disc more times than I can count). You completely contradict yourself, you start off saying you support the idea of disc brakes and don't align with the pros then follow up in the next paragraph with the bike companies shill disc brakes to sheep/lemmings. you can't have it both ways chief.
> 
> 
> And spare me the condescending explanation of aero bikes, the point is if they are so much better all the pros would be on aero bikes for the flat stages and then switch to climbing bikes for the mountains, but most of the pros are not on aero bikes even on flat stages so your same stupid point that they are bucking the marketing by choosing not to use aero bikes could be applied.


Sorry to condescend as you put it. How can I help by your faux analysis?...not only of my critique but your rim versus disc stilted reality aka parallel universe. 
But carry on and you will...lol.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

pedalbiker said:


> There's a rule that riders can't have anything custom that isn't available to the general public.
> 
> It's specifically why Adam Hansen has to offer to make and sell shoes for people(like the ones he wears). Also why the $22000 US Felt track bike was offered for sale to the general public (still haven't heard of anyone buying one, but maybe they're out there).


Great point and wondered about that actually...if it were so called law. Reason is...Sagan's new Roubaix race bike 'with future shock' is rim brake. Many know the relative flat Paris Roubaix race...most racers prefer rim brakes. Of course you can't buy a full bike Roubaix with rim brakes. But an observant poster noted that Specialized has released a 'rim brake' version of the Sworks Roubaix as a frameset. For those that must have one, $4000. No thanks.

Some that follow the TdF this year have witnessed that tour organizers have really spruced up the stages by adding more peril and therefore intrigue. Good for us and tougher for the riders. They added a cobble stage this year with 23km of pave or cobbles which is coming up this weekend. Should be a compelling watch. A mini Paris Roubaix. What variety this year. Likely...not a certainty...that Sagan will be on his rim brake Roubaix for this stage. Great for race fans. Digging the race this year.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

tell us more mr wizard.....


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*

Stick to the points, not your trenchant personal observations about each other.

FYI- rim brakes are just REALLY BIG mechanic disc brakes. Now I bet you all feel silly. . . .


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> You don't know my background nor do I care to discuss it here. No...or not at least in the last 30 years for bikes I have set up. If a bike is in a crash, sure. I also don't run my brakes too tight...prefer a bit of travel to the lever.


Although I don’t have your 30 years of experience I’ve already had two bikes with post mount calipers that would slowly drift one way. My first road bike with Tektro brakes did. I disassembled the caliper, cleaned, greased and tightened everything accordingly and it would still rotate. I had to use carbon paste on the mounting post and tighten it more than I was comfortable with into the carbon fork to solve the problem. Same issue on a used 01’ Specialized Sequoia with 105 brakes for my wife but even carbon paste wouldn’t hold those. Post mount is just a poor design compared to direct mount.

Using the quick release is a pretty lame trick that shouldn’t be necessary but in racing after a crash I’m sure it can be useful. I still don’t understand why post mount calipers exist when direct mount isn’t prone to twisting.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Coolhand said:


> Stick to the points, not your trenchant personal observations about each other.
> 
> FYI- rim brakes are just REALLY BIG mechanic disc brakes. Now I bet you all feel silly. . . .


Personal observations are just friendly musing. 
I have heard it put another way. Why have redundant discs on bicycles? Rim brake bikes already have two large discs.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Although I don’t have your 30 years of experience I’ve already had two bikes with post mount calipers that would slowly drift one way. My first road bike with Tektro brakes did. I disassembled the caliper, cleaned, greased and tightened everything accordingly and it would still rotate. I had to use carbon paste on the mounting post and tighten it more than I was comfortable with into the carbon fork to solve the problem. Same issue on a used 01’ Specialized Sequoia with 105 brakes for my wife but even carbon paste wouldn’t hold those. Post mount is just a poor design compared to direct mount.
> 
> Using the quick release is a pretty lame trick that shouldn’t be necessary but in racing after a crash I’m sure it can be useful. I still don’t understand why post mount calipers exist when direct mount isn’t prone to twisting.


Dave,
Would love to see your setups. Caliper twisting should never be an issue. I only hope you are using a serrated washer as your interface between caliper and fork...or caliper and rear seatstay bridge in back. Makes all the difference and special washer resists any torsion provided single post retention nut is torqued properly.

I literally never have a problem provided the correct washer is used to mitigate rotation. Without the washer which offers torsional resistance to twisting, the caliper can pretty easily go out of alignment. Hope that helps.

Something like this or equivalent:
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Mount-pivot-star-washer/dp/B003UW9VSW


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Good catch. Thanks Dave. Believe you are correct. Pretty funny, or sad when a race team deviates from design intent for the BB i.e. away from BB30 and mount bearings outside the BB shell. Sad that bike makers simply don't go BSA and the public is stuck with the bill if we want to go to a sleeve as well. Certainly cheaper solutions versus what the great Sagan uses.


Sagan’s bike doesn’t deviate from the design intent on the Venge. Outboard bearings still need a narrow BB shell in the frame to maintain the correct final width after the bearings are factored in. It’s just a BB with a threaded collar in the middle instead of needing press and removal tools to press the bearing cups in.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Non-sarcastic answer-- I truly despise wheel rub and the trend of stiff carbon aero bikes has made this a major thing, especially in full race set ups and especially with bigger 25c tires in tighter rear triangles. Discs take that out of the equation for me. Discs on thru axel hubs really do so. The better braking and much lower sensitivity to wheel trueness is a bonus.
Picture added to keep up the tone.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Sagan’s bike doesn’t deviate from the design intent on the Venge. Outboard bearings still need a narrow BB shell in the frame to maintain the correct final width after the bearings are factored in. It’s just a BB with a threaded collar in the middle instead of needing press and removal tools to press the bearing cups in.


Sorry Dave to correct you but design is what I do for a living. Sagan's bike does deviate from design intent by his set up.

The sleeve you reference mounts bearings outside of the BB shell. BB30's design intent is bearings pressed into the shell or inside the shell. As it turns out a small part of the impetus of BB30 is lower Q factor not achievable by outboard bearing configurations. Sagan's bike is not in accordance with Specialiized engineers intent to have bearing pressed into the BB30.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Dave,
> Would love to see your setups. Caliper twisting should never be an issue. I only hope you are using a serrated washer as your interface between caliper and fork...or caliper and rear seatstay bridge in back. Makes all the difference and special washer resists any torsion provided single post retention nut is torqued properly.
> 
> I literally never have a problem provided the correct washer is used to mitigate rotation. Without the washer which offers torsional resistance to twisting, the caliper can pretty easily go out of alignment. Hope that helps.


Those two bikes are sold now. On the Fuji SST with Tektro brakes the serrated surface was built into the threaded collar that goes through from the backside. The spacer from the front side where it mates to the frame was similar to the ends of a quick release hub where it meets the frame. I reassembed it the way it was taken apart but that could have been wrong. When I bought the bike there was a small spacer ontop of the headset cap that was supposed to be underneith so the cap was rubbing the frame. Maybe Fuji had some manufacturing issues at the time. I don’t remeber what the washer setup was on the Sequoia.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Coolhand said:


> Non-sarcastic answer-- I truly despise wheel rub and the trend of stiff carbon aero bikes has made this a major thing, especially in full race set ups and especially with bigger 25c tires in tighter rear triangles. Discs take that out of the equation for me. Discs on thru axel hubs really do so. The better braking and much lower sensitivity to wheel trueness is a bonus.
> Picture added to keep up the tone.


Really striking the dichotomy of view points about rim versus disc. Seems almost universally most pan discs for rotor rub...the difficulty of tuning it out and yet that is one of the reasons you appreciate disc brakes. Go figure.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Those two bikes are sold now. On the Fuji SST with Tektro brakes the serrated surface was built into the threaded collar that goes through from the backside. The spacer from the front side where it mates to the frame was similar to the ends of a quick release hub where it meets the frame. I reassembed it the way it was taken apart but that could have been wrong. When I bought the bike there was a small spacer ontop of the headset cap that was supposed to be underneith so the cap was rubbing the frame. Maybe Fuji had some manufacturing issues at the time. I don’t remeber what the washer setup was on the Sequoia.


If you showed breakdown pictures of each, we could figure it out.
Point is, calipers shouldn't rotate unless say bumped in a crash...provided everything is set up properly with modern caliper brakes. Reason single post exists is because torsional forces on the caliper are 'very low' and easily controlled with serrated washer and correct retention nut torque. You need an abrasive interface however a serrate washer provides. You also need a true rim that doesn't rotate the caliper under braking force. You also need to center the caliper properly during set up. My experience.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Sorry Dave to correct you but design is what I do for a living. Sagan's bike does deviate from design intent by his set up.
> 
> The sleeve you reference mounts bearings outside of the BB shell. BB30's design intent is bearings pressed into the shell or inside the shell. As it turns out a small part of the impetus of BB30 is lower Q factor not achievable by outboard bearing configurations. Sagan's bike is not in accordance with Specialiized engineers intent to have bearing pressed into the BB30.


Seems like a versitile design to me since it is just a big smooth hole in the frame. Looks like they’ve used a variety of different BBs within that same hole in the frame so I don’t think anyone can claim there was an original intent. Now they’re just using the best design BB they’ve found yet to put in it.

I’m definitely not the only one who’s had issues with post mount calipers twisting but I have no doubt you’re right something wasn’t setup correctly. Not concerned about it now as my direct mount calipers are much better in braking performance and they can’t twist. My wife loves her disc brakes and so do I when I take her bike for a spin.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Seems like a versitile design to me since it is just a big smooth hole in the frame. Looks like they’ve used a variety of different BBs within that same hole in the frame so I don’t think anyone can claim there was an original intent. Now they’re just using the best design BB they’ve found yet to put in it.


I can. Not a smooth hole. That is what PF30 is. BB30 is an insert alloy sleeve molded in the carbon shell which precisely machined bores and snap rings designed for press fit of 30mm bearings. The Ceramic bearing sleeve discussed is a design kluge aka workaround...not design intent. 

OK, that is what it isn't...not design intent. Therefore what is it? Many would say this workaround or design kluge is an improvement over design intent. It is the whole predicate for the success of Praxis for example who really spawned a plethora of this type of solution for those that don't want to press separate bearings into a frame which btw works best with Loctite.

Drilling down on design, the flaw of press fit is the percentage of lateral forces on the BB. Having an axial threaded sleeve just like a threaded BB, mitigates these lateral forces. Many including me, believe a threaded interface to be more robust. Sagan's race mechanics use the sleeve largely for expediency. It works. Ceramic bearings overkill for average weekend warrior offer the lowest bearing drag. Drop it in an go. Its viable. Many don't like the price tag. A Shimano based ceramic threaded BB (cups) works as well at a fraction of the price. A ruse perpetrated by bike manufacturers. The great company Pinarello went back to BSA on their top of the line bikes. Kudos to them. Others should follow but likely won't anytime soon.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> I can. Not a smooth hole. That is what PF30 is. BB30 is an insert alloy sleeve molded in the carbon shell which precisely machined bores and snap rings designed for press fit of 30mm bearings. The Ceramic bearing sleeve discussed is a design kluge aka workaround...not design intent.
> 
> OK, that is what it isn't...not design intent. Therefore what is it? Many would say this workaround or design kluge is an improvement over design intent. It is the whole predicate for the success of Praxis for example who really spawned a plethora of this type of solution for those that don't want to press separate bearings into a frame which btw works best with Loctite.
> 
> Drilling down on design, the flaw of press fit is the percentage of lateral forces on the BB. Having an axial threaded sleeve just like a threaded BB, mitigates these lateral forces. Many including me, believe a threaded interface to be more robust. Sagan's race mechanics use the sleeve largely for expediency. It works. Ceramic bearings overkill for average weekend warrior offer the lowest bearing drag. Drop it in an go. Its viable. Many don't like the price tag. A Shimano based ceramic threaded BB (cups) works as well at a fraction of the price. A ruse perpetrated by bike manufacturers. The great company Pinarello went back to BSA on their top of the line bikes. Kudos to them. Others should follow but likely won't anytime soon.


Seems like Specialized has been using the BB design in Sagan’s bike since 2017 in all of their Venge models. Maybe they left it smooth now with BB30 sizing and Specialized just calls all of them OSBB?


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Seems like a versitile design to me since it is just a big smooth hole in the frame. Looks like they’ve used a variety of different BBs within that same hole in the frame so I don’t think anyone can claim there was an original intent. Now they’re just using the best design BB they’ve found yet to put in it.
> 
> I’m definitely not the only one who’s had issues with post mount calipers twisting but I have no doubt you’re right something wasn’t setup correctly. Not concerned about it now as my direct mount calipers are much better in braking performance and they can’t twist. My wife loves her disc brakes and so do I when I take her bike for a spin.


Design, ergo the world of R&D could be a four letter word  or more appropriately coined 'trade off'. No design is perfect. I share your appreciation for dual post aka direct mount brakes. I like them on whole for a variety of reasons. But, Joe six pack will struggle more with their set up because loss of degree of freedom of the single post pivot which places greater emphasis on adjusting the dual pivot mechanism. Now a trained mechanic won't have an issue with this after a learning curve, but not as intuitive to set up compared to single post. In design, no free lunch.

A parallel of this concept for example is the initial Venge VIAS redesign with rim brakes which Specialized discontinued largely due to poor reviews. These were pretty high tech aero integrated rim brakes. Some believe...I believe its partly true...that the Venge VIAS rim brake system isn't flawed. The engineers that created them believed in them. The flaw in the design is the complexity of setting the brakes up properly which eludes the 'average' bike shop mechanic and why the bike and brake system was panned.

There is a concept in design referred to as robustness which encompasses many domains. Robustness to manufacturing tolerance variation for example but moreover to set up. If a system is too hard to adjust or set up reliably, then its performance will suffer in the field. This btw has applicability to press fit BB's as well. 
Hope this make sense.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Coolhand said:


> TT bike with Disc goodness. https://www.bmc-switzerland.com/us-en/timemachine-disc/


yes, and with disc covers, and without which the overall impact to aerodynamics would be worse. I don't know man, but I don't think I'd want starting to put covers and hoods on my daily road bikes. Might as well ride a bent with a full on bubble, no?


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Seems like Specialized has been using the BB design in Sagan’s bike since 2017 in all of their Venge models. Maybe they left it smooth now with BB30 sizing and Specialized just calls all of them OSBB?


The saga of Specialized when it comes to BB's isn't pretty. More like a disaster. For several years Specialized sold what they coined carbon OSBB which was effectively a proprietary version of PF30...only 61mm wide. Owners of $8-10K Sworks race bikes struggled mightily with this design before after about 5 years of screwing people, a couple of years ago Specialized converted all their flagship bikes to BB30 which they call OSBB to retain their exclusivity when they are anything but. FWIW BB30 is leaps and bounds more reliable than PF30 so Specialized finally did the right thing about killing this design which they released for 'marketing advantage only' because industry insiders knew it was crap and 'cheaper for Specialized to manufacture' AND they could advertise at a lower weight. Truthfully if you really understand design and witnessed the desperation of Specialized to tame their version of PF30, the people at that company that knowingly did this to the unsuspecting bike riding public, they should be punished on some level. Grievous. 

BB30 aka current design is better. It can be successfully tamed with Locitite and proper set up...or a sleeve like Peter's race team uses. Truthfully, Praxis came into being largely due to Specialized's f-up.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> BB30 aka current design is better. It can be successfully tamed with Locitite and proper set up...or a sleeve like Peter's race team uses. Truthfully, Praxis came into being largely due to Specialized's f-up.


One of the reason's I'll never buy a Specialized is their push to always have some proprietary design. In this case Fuji seemed to adopt it with the PF30 but Wheels Manufacturing had the perfect replacement which I researched before I bought the bike.

FWIW my Fuji Transonic 2.3 is a PF30 and the Praxis PF30 that I took out of it was a piece of sh!t in my opinion. Not the bearings but the design. https://praxiscycles.com/bottom-brackets/conversion-bb/ Even with tons of copper anti-seize on the threads from the factory install it was basically seized in place. I needed to use a seat post for extra leverage on my 3/8 drive breaker bar to break the threaded end loose. Which was more than enough torque to twist the metal collar that goes through the frame. Maybe it was over tightened from the factory but there is supposed to be zero torque on them and only tightened until touching the frame. My new BB is the same design as the Ceramic Speed one I linked earlier and I don't think it would matter whether it uses the PF30 or BB30 size shell in the frame. Piece of cake to install, no thread lock needed and creaking should never be a problem.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

11spd said:


> The great company Pinarello went back to BSA on their top of the line bikes. Kudos to them. Others should follow but likely won't anytime soon.


this site should keep an inventory of major companies and model which still offer BSA. yeah kudos to Pinarello


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> One of the reason's I'll never buy a Specialized is their push to always have some proprietary design. In this case Fuji seemed to adopt it with the PF30 but Wheels Manufacturing had the perfect replacement which I researched before I bought the bike.
> 
> FWIW my Fuji Transonic 2.3 is a PF30 and the Praxis PF30 that I took out of it was a piece of sh!t in my opinion. Not the bearings but the design. https://praxiscycles.com/bottom-brackets/conversion-bb/ Even with tons of copper anti-seize on the threads from the factory install it was basically seized in place. I needed to use a seat post for extra leverage on my 3/8 drive breaker bar to break the threaded end loose. Which was more than enough torque to twist the metal collar that goes through the frame. Maybe it was over tightened from the factory but there is supposed to be zero torque on them and only tightened until touching the frame. My new BB is the same design as the Ceramic Speed one I linked earlier and I don't think it would matter whether it uses the PF30 or BB30 size shell in the frame. Piece of cake to install, no thread lock needed and creaking should never be a problem.


Well done Dave. Praxis for PF30 is generally favorably reviewed in the industry. Sounds like some level of abuse installing it as you suspect.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Coolhand said:


> FYI- rim brakes are just REALLY BIG mechanic disc brakes. Now I bet you all feel silly. . . .


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Coolhand again.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Again, that's an issue with the mechanic. Noises on my bike drive me crazy, I have 12k miles on my disc bike and the only time I get any rub noise is after a hard braking event it will happen for about 15s until the brakes cool, and even then it depends on which wheels I am using. I've also built maybe a dozen disc brake bikes and you can make it so they are quiet
> Additionally, rim brakes are not immune to rub either, I rode them for 25 years and have experienced it plenty, in fact on my previous bike I had to carry around a brake centering wrench because the Sram Red caliper would frequently go out of whack and rub the wheel (especially annoying on carbon wheels)


Like I said before:

World champion in the world's biggest race on supposedly the world's best equipment. WITH HIS OWN MECHANIC. 

Whatever you got to tell yourself, bro.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> Like I said before:
> 
> World champion in the world's biggest race on supposedly the world's best equipment. WITH HIS OWN MECHANIC.
> 
> Whatever you got to tell yourself, bro.



I don't have to tell myself anything, I know, and I am telling you, bro.
You don't know what the situation is with the bike, as noted they were getting an early first look at it and he was one of the first to even see the bike, it's possible Sagans mechanic may not have done the final go through or someone else built it and his mech hasn't even touched it yet.
And I am still not convinced that is disc rub you're hearing, it sounds like the DT Swiss ratchet freewheel, mine sounds just like that.

.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

aclinjury said:


> ok boys, this is just in, Peter Sagan's Venge Disc bike for TdF. Take a look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So so fun. As someone who swaps disced wheelsets on my road/gravel bike (3T Exploro...one set 650b/47mm for mixed surface, one set 700c/26mm for pure road) I can attest to what a PitA it is. Same exact hubs, same exact rotors. Should work like a charm. Nope. Always requires a brake adjustment. And to make matters worse, Shimano with their flat mount push is forcing framemakers to offer flat mount frames, which at least for me make adjustment even more difficult because of mounting bolt positions (underneath chainstay on rear brake).


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MattMay said:


> So so fun. As someone who swaps disced wheelsets on my road/gravel bike (3T Exploro...one set 650b/47mm for mixed surface, one set 700c/26mm for pure road) I can attest to what a PitA it is. Same exact hubs, same exact rotors. Should work like a charm. Nope. Always requires a brake adjustment. And to make matters worse, Shimano with their flat mount push is forcing framemakers to offer flat mount frames, which at least for me make adjustment even more difficult because of mounting bolt positions (underneath chainstay on rear brake).



I swap between wheel sets and don't have to make any adjustments, and that is with different hubs (DT Swiss and Giant hubs) and rotors. It's WAY easier than when I had to swap rim brake wheels which required changing all the pads (CF v Al) and making adjustments for the different wheel widths, now that was a total PITA.
And they make shims for your rotors so you don't have to make such adjustments if your hubs are different. 



.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

MoPho said:


> And I am still not convinced that is disc rub you're hearing, it sounds like the DT Swiss ratchet freewheel, mine sounds just like that.
> 
> .


It was definitely disc brake rub. The DT Swiss star ratchet doesn't make any sounds that even remotely resemble it. To be honest though I very much doubt the amount of brake rub we hear in the video is worth even half a watt of power. The friction just isn't high enough between two very hard surfaces until the brakes are actually applied. It could mess with someones head just hearing that during a stage though.

When I had two wheel sets there was no issue with brake rub when swapping them out. Manufactures might just need to put more attention into machining their hubs but I see discs being a bigger issue. There are slight variances between most discs so even if all of the hubs are absolutely identical there could still be brake rub in a quick wheel swap during a race.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

MoPho said:


> I swap between wheel sets and don't have to make any adjustments, and that is with different hubs (DT Swiss and Giant hubs) and rotors. It's WAY easier than when I had to swap rim brake wheels which required changing all the pads (CF v Al) and making adjustments for the different wheel widths, now that was a total PITA.
> And they make shims for your rotors so you don't have to make such adjustments if your hubs are different.


I need your setup! What brakes do you use out of curiosity? On my mtb I can swap without issue...Shimano XTR 9000. But on this flat mount 3T frame with SRAM Force brakes, centerloc IceTecs, I can’t. Weird. Maybe one rotor is slightly tweaked, but the whole setup is just a month old and I can’t see any warp. Maybe just rotor manufacturing variance? The adjustment is usually just on the rear and the only thing I can think is uneven use between sets, so tiny differences in wear on the rotors may result in minor rub? Or there’s a warp and I can’t detect it and fix to a point where I’m not possibly causing further issues. It’s not major, not a full rub, just a twang, but I hate noise. The adjustment is always minor, but still needs to be made. Front wheel swap is more trouble free, maybe because I don’t use the front brakes as much as rear. Thoughts?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MattMay said:


> So so fun. As someone who swaps disced wheelsets on my road/gravel bike (3T Exploro...one set 650b/47mm for mixed surface, one set 700c/26mm for pure road) I can attest to what a PitA it is. Same exact hubs, same exact rotors. Should work like a charm. Nope. Always requires a brake adjustment. And to make matters worse, Shimano with their flat mount push is forcing framemakers to offer flat mount frames, which at least for me make adjustment even more difficult because of mounting bolt positions (underneath chainstay on rear brake).


you baller you, that 3T Exploro has always been on my mind ever since it came out for the nice hard pack trails we have around here.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

MattMay said:


> I need your setup! What brakes do you use out of curiosity? On my mtb I can swap without issue...Shimano XTR 9000. But on this flat mount 3T frame with SRAM Force brakes, centerloc IceTecs, I can’t. Weird. Maybe one rotor is slightly tweaked, but the whole setup is just a month old and I can’t see any warp. Maybe just rotor manufacturing variance? The adjustment is usually just on the rear and the only thing I can think is uneven use between sets, so tiny differences in wear on the rotors may result in minor rub? Or there’s a warp and I can’t detect it and fix to a point where I’m not possibly causing further issues. It’s not major, not a full rub, just a twang, but I hate noise. The adjustment is always minor, but still needs to be made. Front wheel swap is more trouble free, maybe because I don’t use the front brakes as much as rear. Thoughts?


Next time you swap wheels use the same rotors and see what happens. If it still rubs it's probably the hub. If not the disc is slightly off which is very common. You can use Park Tool's truing tool to make the rotor match the rest of them. Or just true it to work with that specific wheel set.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

aclinjury said:


> you baller you, that 3T Exploro has always been on my mind ever since it came out for the nice hard pack trails we have around here.


Love it. Rapidly becoming my go to ride. 80% on the 650b/47mm setup. Not to derail thread but...


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

Fajita Dave said:


> Next time you swap wheels use the same rotors and see what happens. If it still rubs it's probably the hub. If not the disc is slightly off which is very common. You can use Park Tool's truing tool to make the rotor match the rest of them. Or just true it to work with that specific wheel set.


Will do. Given that I have centerloc rotors, it was probably dumb overkill to have redundant rotors rather than just swap.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Fajita Dave said:


> It was definitely disc brake rub. The DT Swiss star ratchet doesn't make any sounds that even remotely resemble it. To be honest though I very much doubt the amount of brake rub we hear in the video is worth even half a watt of power. The friction just isn't high enough between two very hard surfaces until the brakes are actually applied. It could mess with someones head just hearing that during a stage though.
> 
> When I had two wheel sets there was no issue with brake rub when swapping them out. Manufactures might just need to put more attention into machining their hubs but I see discs being a bigger issue. There are slight variances between most discs so even if all of the hubs are absolutely identical there could still be brake rub in a quick wheel swap during a race.



My DT Swiss hubs do sound like that, they make an uneven pulsing whir. in fact I once had another rider roll up next to me and try and go off on a rant about disc brakes thinking mine were rubbing, and then I started pedaling and the noise went away... I've even mistaken the noise as brake rub

That said, I can't say for sure that is what it is in the video, but my it was first impression and then I watched the rest of the video and he confirmed it was a DT Swiss free hub



.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MattMay said:


> I need your setup! What brakes do you use out of curiosity? On my mtb I can swap without issue...Shimano XTR 9000. But on this flat mount 3T frame with SRAM Force brakes, centerloc IceTecs, I can’t. Weird. Maybe one rotor is slightly tweaked, but the whole setup is just a month old and I can’t see any warp. Maybe just rotor manufacturing variance? The adjustment is usually just on the rear and the only thing I can think is uneven use between sets, so tiny differences in wear on the rotors may result in minor rub? Or there’s a warp and I can’t detect it and fix to a point where I’m not possibly causing further issues. It’s not major, not a full rub, just a twang, but I hate noise. The adjustment is always minor, but still needs to be made. Front wheel swap is more trouble free, maybe because I don’t use the front brakes as much as rear. Thoughts?



I have Shimano RS805 flat mount calipers and use Dura-Ace rotors on one set of wheels and RT-81/99 on the other. Now it seems I just got lucky that they swap so easily, but they do make shims to get the alignment right, so it should be fixable. 
You can also try folding a business card over the rotor and insert it into the caliper to help push the pistons out a bit and give you some more pad clearance. Its also a little harder to get the clearance when the pads are new



.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

Love that biz card hack!


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> I don't have to tell myself anything, I know, and I am telling you, bro.
> You don't know what the situation is with the bike, as noted they were getting an early first look at it and he was one of the first to even see the bike, it's possible Sagans mechanic may not have done the final go through or someone else built it and his mech hasn't even touched it yet.
> And I am still not convinced that is disc rub you're hearing, it sounds like the DT Swiss ratchet freewheel, mine sounds just like that.
> 
> .


Its not freehub rub. Its disc pad rub. But you are correct, that it may not be status of the bike before it entered a big race. Hope not.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

I think all of Quickstep were on rim tarmacs today. Sagan and at least one other Bora guy still on the venge.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> I have Shimano RS805 flat mount calipers and use Dura-Ace rotors on one set of wheels and RT-81/99 on the other. Now it seems I just got lucky that they swap so easily, but they do make shims to get the alignment right, so it should be fixable.
> You can also try folding a business card over the rotor and insert it into the caliper to help push the pistons out a bit and give you some more pad clearance. Its also a little harder to get the clearance when the pads are new
> .


Point is...I have built my share of both hydraulic disc bikes and rim brake...latter much more over 40 years of owning countless roadbikes. Pad rub is more of an issue on disc bikes than rim brake. There is NO controversy on this other than from somebody who doesn't know any better. Not saying disc brake bikes are unridable….lol. The credit card technique is a pretty good one and helps. I posted the video where the disc brake expert shows his tip to push pistons in by yanking on the rotor local to the rub.

For many of us, certainly not for all that own disc brake bikes...rim brake sets ups are less fiddly. To me, this is no debate and not even close. Others of course who defend disc brake design, they believe disc pad rub to be a non issue. It is probably the no.1 issue of why there are more rim brake bikes in the pro peloton however...wheel changes without enough time to vet any pad rub issue like we hear on Sagan's race bike in the video after a wheel change with slightly different tolerances.. An amateur rider who doesn't race however however doesn't have this constraint. All the time in the world to fiddle with his disc brakes at home to set them up so they don't rub...at least for a while until they do.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

taodemon said:


> I think all of Quickstep were on rim tarmacs today. Sagan and at least one other Bora guy still on the venge.


Hi Tao,
Thanks for the observation. I was more riveted by the congressional hearing today and was toggling between that and the race.
I admit some further surprise. I expected Sagan to be on this rim brake Tarmac for the last two climbing states but no. Maybe we will see him roll it out in the more climbing specific stages...or in the cobble stage coming up..or his rim brake Roubaix. Because cobbles are 'only' for 23km, he might just gut it out on his Tarmac. We will see. Don't think we will see the Venge disc on the cobbled stage.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> Point is...I have built my share of both hydraulic disc bikes and rim brake...latter much more over 40 years of owning countless roadbikes. Pad rub is more of an issue on disc bikes than rim brake. There is NO controversy on this other than from somebody who doesn't know any better. Not saying disc brake bikes are unridable….lol. The credit card technique is a pretty good one and helps. I posted the video where the disc brake expert shows his tip to push pistons in by yanking on the rotor local to the rub.
> 
> For many of us, certainly not for all that own disc brake bikes...rim brake sets ups are less fiddly. To me, this is no debate and not even close. Others of course who defend disc brake design, they believe disc pad rub to be a non issue. It is probably the no.1 issue of why there are more rim brake bikes in the pro peloton however...wheel changes without enough time to vet and pad rub issue like we hear in Sagan's race bike in the video.



40 years now? Before it was 30 :lol:

I never said it is not an issue, I said it is fixable just like it is fixable on rim brakes which makes it not a deal killer as some of the disc naysayers would like people to believe. 
And as I noted, brake rub is an issue on rim brakes too, not just from the caliper moving but from the rim moving. I hear brake rub all the time when folks get out of the saddle and have had several people recently bringing their bikes in to the shop complaining about it. Sure you can adjust the spread of the caliper, but that degrades the throw and the brake performance 
And you're not the only one with experience here 





.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> 40 years now? Before it was 30 :lol:
> 
> I never said it is not an issue, I said it is fixable just like it is fixable on rim brakes which makes it not a deal killer as some of the disc naysayers would like people to believe.
> And as I noted, brake rub is an issue on rim brakes too, not just from the caliper moving but from the rim moving. I hear brake rub all the time when folks get out of the saddle and have had several people recently bringing their bikes in to the shop complaining about it. Sure you can adjust the spread of the caliper, but that degrades the throw and the brake performance
> ...


Both 30 and 40 years are correct. I am 64 and got my first 10 speed with caliper brakes when I was 12. 52 years gulp, hard to type. 

Disc brake pad rub is a problem on automobiles, motorcycles and now bicycles since the beginning of time. Had it one time or another on all three:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT3-v7D_EUM


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

MattMay said:


> Love it. Rapidly becoming my go to ride. 80% on the 650b/47mm setup. Not to derail thread but...


What's going on here? http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/latest-wheel-build-365086.html#post5244186


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

Awesome! Greats minds....


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

11spd said:


> Both 30 and 40 years are correct. *I am 64* and got my first 10 speed with caliper brakes when I was 12. 52 years.
> 
> Disc brake pad rub is a problem on automobiles, motorcycles and now bicycles since the beginning of time:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT3-v7D_EUM


really? damn from you debate energy, I was assuming you to be much younger! That's a compliment, aight.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

MoPho said:


> My DT Swiss hubs do sound like that, they make an uneven pulsing whir. in fact I once had another rider roll up next to me and try and go off on a rant about disc brakes thinking mine were rubbing, and then I started pedaling and the noise went away... I've even mistaken the noise as brake rub
> 
> That said, I can't say for sure that is what it is in the video, but my it was first impression and then I watched the rest of the video and he confirmed it was a DT Swiss free hub
> 
> ...


I use DT Swiss hubs and have had the 18, 36 and 54 tooth ratchets. I know the pulsing sound you’re talking about but I’ve never heard them make the metallic resonating sound a disc makes with some pad rub. Which I did hear pretty clearly in the video.

If it were pad rub I’m sure it was fixed before he went racing on it anyway.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> really? damn from you debate energy, I was assuming you to be much younger! That's a compliment, aight.


I look 50.  I bike and swim just about everyday. Just got out of the pool. 
Pretty young hearted and still ride with the young boys. My LTHR is 170 so I literally have a young heart. 

But no mistake, no escaping father time. 60's is a [email protected] and likely 70's will be much worse. I have a friend who is 72 and he can pull in his own air 22mph mile after mile. My nickname for him is the diesel. He just keeps coming. I should be so lucky.
Thanks


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MattMay said:


> Love it. Rapidly becoming my go to ride. 80% on the 650b/47mm setup. Not to derail thread but...


Cool bike. My thread and my rules which I don't make  ...anything bike or hot chick related. 
May I ask how much does it weigh approximately?
You mentioned 650/47mm wide tires. What ratio of road to gravel or single track do you ride?
Looks to be a fun all arounder.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

Thanks! Got the idea for the bike and setup from Dave Zabriskie, who now runs a gravel camp here in So Cal (dznuthouse.com). I’m only a few weeks into it but it’s probably 70-30 to 60-40 dirt-road. We don’t have true “gravel” but a lot of dirt fire roads and the roads/bike lanes are often rough. Tried some bumpier single track I ride on my mtb...definitely doable but not optimal for this bike. Still, wouldn’t hesitate to mash it altogether in a single ride and in my advanced age (58) not wanting to “shred gnar” much anymore I could envision this being my only bike and being ok with it.

Weight is 17.25 as pictured with 650b setup and pedals. 

Weight is about a pound less with 700c and Schwalbe Pro Ones set up tubeless.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

MoPho said:


> I don't have to tell myself anything, I know, and I am telling you, bro.
> You don't know what the situation is with the bike, as noted they were getting an early first look at it and he was one of the first to even see the bike, it's possible Sagans mechanic may not have done the final go through or someone else built it and his mech hasn't even touched it yet.
> And I am still not convinced that is disc rub you're hearing, it sounds like the DT Swiss ratchet freewheel, mine sounds just like that.
> 
> .


That you try to argue something as obvious as that disc rub sound is pretty telling. He turns the wheels in BOTH directions and it makes that noise! Seriously, get with it. 

And no, your DT Swiss freehub does not sound like that, unless you too have a disc rubbing. 

Again, you keep telling yourself what you need to, but proselytizing your delusion is tiresome and pointless. No one buys it.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> That you try to argue something as obvious as that disc rub sound is pretty telling. He turns the wheels in BOTH directions and it makes that noise! Seriously, get with it.
> 
> And no, your DT Swiss freehub does not sound like that, unless you too have a disc rubbing.
> 
> Again, you keep telling yourself what you need to, but proselytizing your delusion is tiresome and pointless. No one buys it.



Maybe it's my speakers on my computer, but no, it is not obvious . Or perhaps you want it to be disc rub so bad that you've convinced yourself that it is what you're hearing. Like I already said, it's not clear to me and I can't say for sure that's what it is (it's a youtube video recorded from a few feet away and he only turns it backwards quarter of a turn for a split second, the noise you hear could be his fingers on the spokes, or not), but again I had someone mistake my freewheel noise for disc rub while riding next to me and I've heard it sound like that too. I'd make a video but I don't have the wheels with me.
Now what is tiresome is you and others constantly whining and railing against disc for exaggerated "issues" and in this case something that is a fixable set up error. If it was a rim brake rubbing would you be trying to convince others not to buy rim brakes? 



( Edit to add: Even in the comments of the video there was debate as to whether it was the disc or the free hub, or perhaps they rushed the bike for the video as I noted and that it is an easy fix if the brake )





.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

11spd said:


> I look 50.  I bike and swim just about everyday. Just got out of the pool.
> Pretty young hearted and still ride with the young boys. My LTHR is 170 so I literally have a young heart.
> 
> But no mistake, no escaping father time. 60's is a [email protected] and likely 70's will be much worse. I have a friend who is 72 and he can pull in his own air 22mph mile after mile. My nickname for him is the diesel. He just keeps coming. I should be so lucky.
> Thanks


stay young my mannn!!


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MattMay said:


> Thanks! Got the idea for the bike and setup from Dave Zabriskie, who now runs a gravel camp here in So Cal (dznuthouse.com). I’m only a few weeks into it but it’s probably 70-30 to 60-40 dirt-road. We don’t have true “gravel” but a lot of dirt fire roads and the roads/bike lanes are often rough. Tried some bumpier single track I ride on my mtb...definitely doable but not optimal for this bike. Still, wouldn’t hesitate to mash it altogether in a single ride and in my advanced age (58) not wanting to “shred gnar” much anymore I could envision this being my only bike and being ok with it.
> 
> Weight is 17.25 as pictured with 650b setup and pedals.
> 
> Weight is about a pound less with 700c and Schwalbe Pro Ones set up tubeless.


Thanks Matt...nice and light for your wheel/tire size. Love the 650/47, nice hedge against static and rotational mass. Had a 29er with your tire width and added weight and spool up was noticeable. Once up to speed however, the thing rocked.

I share your line between too rough and smooth dirt for a drop bar. But being even a bit older, even on the dirt with advancing years, I prefer a flat bar and tires around your size. Rougher track and a front shock comes in handy which can be locked out on smoother stuff. Love the versatility of that kind of bike however...being able to run 700c and shorter, lighter and skinner rubber if spending more time on tarmac. I also like 1x driveline provided not too much climbing...love the simplicity of only shifting only 1 derailleur.
Ride safe and thanks for sharing your cool bike. Disc is the only way to fly when tire/rim width increases and spending more time off the smooth stuff.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> stay young my mannn!!


Lucky I suppose to have made it this far. Will try and thanks for the words of encouragement!
I guess I have never wanted the party to end. I never liked work and was always sneaking out the back door to be outside and play.  This in spite of my training but could never be as serious as others and keep my nose to the grindstone...lol.
Life's short and older you get seems to go faster. Less sand in the hour glass.
Play hard and ride safe.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

11spd said:


> Thanks Matt...nice and light for your wheel/tire size. Love the 650/47, nice hedge against static and rotational mass. Had a 29er with your tire width and added weight and spool up was noticeable. Once up to speed however, the thing rocked.
> 
> I share your line between too rough and smooth dirt for a drop bar. But being even a bit older, even on the dirt with advancing years, I prefer a flat bar and tires around your size. Rougher track and a front shock comes in handy which can be locked out on smoother stuff. Love the versatility of that kind of bike however...being able to run 700c and shorter, lighter and skinner rubber if spending more time on tarmac. I also like 1x driveline provided not too much climbing...love the simplicity of only shifting only 1 derailleur.
> Ride safe and thanks for sharing your cool bike. Disc is the only way to fly when tire/rim width increases and spending more time off the smooth stuff.


Thanks! I found the same thing on my hardtail. I “graveled” my 29er hardtail for a long time, with 45mm tires, then trail demoing the 3T on a long ride, before pulling the trigger on the 3T. On mixed surface rides over say 50 miles or so I’m more comfortable with drop bars give several hand positions and bike geo. Considered 140mm rotors but decided 160mm was the way to go. Glad I did, this bike is capable of speeds that can scare me.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

11spd said:


> Lucky I suppose to have made it this far. Will try and thanks for the words of encouragement!
> I guess I have never wanted the party to end. I never liked work and was always sneaking out the back door to be outside and play.  This in spite of my training but could never be as serious as others and keep my nose to the grindstone...lol.
> Life's short and older you get seems to go faster. Less sand in the hour glass.
> Play hard and ride safe.


dude, I know a few guys like you around here (Socal), hmm actually a lot of older cyclists around here are like you, they enjoy life and don't worry about work much. Most have kids that are all grown up, houses probably paid off, and now it's their time to take it easy. These are the ones that will not hesitate buying an expensive bike on a whim, ride to coffee shops and sit there all day, or ride a century weekly. Guys in my age group don't have these sort of hours to play. Every time I wanna do a 100 miler, they be like "nope can't do, gotta be home by 11 am",, blah blah always gotta be home this gotta be home that!


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> dude, I know a few guys like you around here (Socal), hmm actually a lot of older cyclists around here are like you, they enjoy life and don't worry about work much. Most have kids that are all grown up, houses probably paid off, and now it's their time to take it easy. These are the ones that will not hesitate buying an expensive bike on a whim, ride to coffee shops and sit there all day


Damn that sounds awesome. . .


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Coolhand said:


> Damn that sounds awesome. . .


oh it is, I'd pass them in the morning on my rides, 2 hours later when I'm on my way back, I still see some of them sitting there, waving at me. I wave back and holla at them "hey you guys still here!" and we laugh out loud together like if we know each other from college,,, but when in fact we don't even know each other's name, but isn't that cool part of life?


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> oh it is, I'd pass them in the morning on my rides, 2 hours later when I'm on my way back, I still see some of them sitting there, waving at me.


You never know, they may have finished another ride (even passed you both ways) and came back for second break...


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

bvber said:


> You never know, they may have finished another ride (even passed you both ways) and came back for second break...
> View attachment 323116


I never sit around at coffee houses...I don't like sitting around even though I have the time. I do like taking a hot, fit young lady cyclist to outside café breakfast ride however.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> dude, I know a few guys like you around here (Socal), hmm actually a lot of older cyclists around here are like you, they enjoy life and don't worry about work much. Most have kids that are all grown up, houses probably paid off, and now it's their time to take it easy. These are the ones that will not hesitate buying an expensive bike on a whim, ride to coffee shops and sit there all day, or ride a century weekly. * Guys in my age group don't have these sort of hours to play.* Every time I wanna do a 100 miler, they be like "nope can't do, gotta be home by 11 am",, blah blah always gotta be home this gotta be home that!


In bold, you will brother. Enjoy your youth and I am sure you are. No replacement for the body feeling so good like when you are young. I always looked young for my age and never wanted to grow up or be responsible..lol. Grown ups suck as most that like to play know.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> I never sit around at coffee houses...I don't like sitting around even though I have the time. I do like taking a hot, fit young lady cyclist to outside café breakfast ride however.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Somewhat back on topic Sagan was on a rim roubaix for stage 9.

Back off topic I'm always impressed by how some of these 60+ year old guys ride. One of my goals is to still be riding that well at that age.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

taodemon said:


> Somewhat back on topic Sagan was on a rim roubaix for stage 9.
> 
> Back off topic I'm always impressed by how some of these 60+ year old guys ride. One of my goals is to still be riding that well at that age.


Tao,
Thanks for that..was going to ask you. Because the Roubaix stage was combination of cobbles and smooth tarmac...gosh some of those cobbled sections were rough. GC guys did surprisingly well keeping up. There is only one section of road I used to ride on my Specialized Roubaix that I would occasionally blast at 25mph or so with strong riders and it was 'brutal'. Only a short section...not all those kilos. The guys in that race are a special stock. Very tough guys.

I thought Sagan maybe on his rim brake Tarmac but no he defaulted all the way to his Roubaix for that stage. I figured he would ditch the Venge for that brutal stage which was apparently the case. Thanks for update and btw all your contributions to this thread.


A word to 30-40 somethings on this forum that love to ride hard and hold onto your youth. I was just like you. Time goes by as fast as you ride. My advice is guard your health and watch your weight by disciplined eating and exercise and enjoy the long ride. A guy in his 60's can still keep up with younger riders 'to a degree'. A guy like me can drop untrained younger riders. I have only medium good genes for cycling. Was never a top rider.

A quick story. A bit over a year ago I met a young college swimmer. We met at the pool and he noticed right away I was a good swimmer and likely a competitive swimmer in my prime. Immediately we became friends and he ended up teaching me some the latest swimming techniques...adding further refinement to my form after decades of swimming. This of course astounded me because I taught swimming and thought I knew more about it than any 'kid'. We also competed and it wasn't close. He beat me more under the water than on top of it with his dolphin kicks off the wall, him being more of a pure butterflier than me. We could make races but only with a good handicap. He told me that he and myself were closer in speed than him compared to the best swimmers in the world which was a compliment because this college swimmer was so incredibly fast in the water. 

Cycling came up. I told him I likely could beat him on a bike and he somewhat scoffed at me because he grew up riding BMX and he had such an advantage in the pool. I set up one of my road bikes to his size and off we went with a lot of interested spectators...fellow riders and swimmers. It wasn't close. He was untrained on the bike and when he tried to attack me on a 30 mile ride, I would just draft him as he went anaerobic around 25mph or so, I jumped out of saddle out of the draft as he gassed and dropped him. When he saw how much more speed I had, he somewhat gave up. I had better cardio than this kid with all his training in the pool...specific to cycling. Of course I had better technique, better position on the bike etc. There was bigger difference on the bike than in the pool in my favor. I could drop him easily. I have raced many twenty somethings that didn't have nearly the same experience as me on the bike and I could drop most easily.

Take away is, to me the fountain of youth is cycling. But along the way, you need to keep a fit, strong light body. This isn't hard with discipline. So keep fighting the good fight, lining up with fast guys to push you. You can hold onto your power. Yes there a few strong riders in my town that can drop me and maybe even one or two ex racers my age...or close. But speed on the bike doesn't necessarily correlate to age. At the elite level, age matters of course. You won't see any 45 y.o.'s in the TdF.

Ride safe you guys.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

11spd said:


> Tao,
> Thanks for that..was going to ask you. Because the Roubaix stage was combination of cobbles and smooth tarmac...gosh some of those cobbled sections were rough. GC guys did surprisingly well keeping up. There is only one section of road I used to ride on my Specialized Roubaix that I would occasionally blast at 25mph or so with strong riders and it was 'brutal'. Only a short section...not all those kilos. The guys in that race are a special stock. Very tough guys.
> 
> I thought Sagan maybe on his rim brake Tarmac but no he defaulted all the way to his Roubaix for that stage. I figured he would ditch the Venge for that brutal stage which was apparently the case. Thanks for update and btw all your contributions to this thread.
> ...


you one of these old dudes that subtly sneak up the back wheel of a young guy and stalk him to see what he's got in those legs and plan your attack???


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> you one of these old dudes that subtly sneak up the back wheel of a young guy and stalk him to see what he's got in those legs and plan your attack???


First, I don't look old. I have good genes for aging.  I don't have gray hair. I am narrow waisted. I do 2 minute planks daily  
Also, not the stalker type. I am more overt. I pull up to the young guy riding in full kit with $2K carbon wheels and start a conversation while half wheeling him and looking back and giving him 'the look' (Lance). I keep talking to him as I ride faster and faster. As he tries to keep up, I notice his more labored breathing and difficult time keeping pace. Eventually, I may notice the rider emitting a body part like a pancreas or a spleen....but generally only in extreme cases.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

I posted this link here a week ago where Sagan said he was going to ride a rim brake bike on the Roubaix stage because of the flat tires and chaos with team and neutral support. The stage was also won on a disc bike BTW

Older fast guys and gals are a common site around here, makes for a lot of inspiration (and demoralization) for sure. There are also two 75yo guys who come out on the faster group rides and they both still race and have state and national championships to their names. Another rider here is 83yo and every week for the past 500+ consecutive weeks he has climbed the 3850ft local mountain. 
Not quite as "old", Former US Postal rider Darren Baker is a local and I believe he is in his 50's, regularly tears the legs off folks on the fast House of Pain ride. Also one of my neighbors has the 1hr world record for the 55-59 age group







.


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

It appears stage 9 had at least 3 teams on disc brakes: Trek-Segafredo, Direct-Energie, and Team Sunweb.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> I posted this link here a week ago where Sagan said he was going to ride a rim brake bike on the Roubaix stage because of the flat tires and chaos with team and neutral support. The stage was also won on a disc bike BTW
> 
> Older fast guys and gals are a common site around here, makes for a lot of inspiration (and demoralization) for sure. There are also two 75yo guys who come out on the faster group rides and they both still race and have state and national championships to their names. Another rider here is 83yo and every week for the past 500+ consecutive weeks he has climbed the 3850ft local mountain.
> Not quite as "old", Former US Postal rider Darren Baker is a local and I believe he is in his 50's, regularly tears the legs off folks on the fast House of Pain ride. Also one of my neighbors has the 1hr world record for the 55-59 age group
> ...


There is a 65 y.o. guy that is member of our group who rides about 5 inches of drop on his high zoot Giant TCR with carbon wheels. He is always in full kit and pushing the pace. He races in the nationals and has a coach and always going for KOM on Strava. He is a very fast dude and if he tries hard enough, he can drop me. In spite of being very fit, he also looks like everybodies' grandpa, so that is my nickname for him...grandpa. We are close to the same age and he looks twenty years older. Too many free radicals from over training.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

GearDaddy said:


> It appears stage 9 had at least 3 teams on disc brakes: Trek-Segafredo, Direct-Energie, and Team Sunweb.


Out of how many teams total in the TdF, GD...do you know?

There is palpable irony to most that follow the Roubaix race and this specific stage of the TdF. The Specialized Roubaix like most endurance genre bikes is only available as full bike with disc brake. And yet, Sagan, has his custom Roubaix made with rim brakes...and Peter races his Venge with disc brakes because that is the best config for that bike. But, he goes off the reservation with a custom bike with rim brakes for the Roubaix race when the stock bike is only available with disc. A bit surprising.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

11spd said:


> First, I don't look old. I have good genes for aging.  I don't have gray hair. I am narrow waisted. I do 2 minute planks daily
> Also, not the stalker type. I am more overt. I pull up to the young guy riding in full kit with $2K carbon wheels and start a conversation while half wheeling him and looking back and giving him 'the look' (Lance). I keep talking to him as I ride faster and faster. As he tries to keep up, I notice his more labored breathing and difficult time keeping pace. Eventually, I may notice the rider emitting a body part like a pancreas or a spleen....but generally only in extreme cases.


ah catcha, you the sneaky type. I know your type. Half wheeling while pushing the tempo every so slightly eh.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> ah catcha, you the sneaky type. I know your type. Half wheeling while pushing the tempo every so slightly eh.


I really am not. I am the friendly counter puncher type. Oh, I sometimes make people pay that push the pace but generally I ride along. Sometimes they make me pay...lol. I mean riding fast, we all pay right? I also have slower riding friends. If I need more a work out, I generally pull for them or ride in a higher gear. I sometimes am curious about the fitness of others and see what they got.  I learned a long time ago there are some with surprising speed out there. I am better than most and not as good as some. Nor am I willing to train harder to get faster. That 10-20% of extra effort for 1-2% of better fitness isn't worth it to me. I also have to guard against injury. Old guys are more fragile. :wink5:


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Out of how many teams total in the TdF, GD...do you know?
> 
> There is palpable irony to most that follow the Roubaix race and this specific stage of the TdF. The Specialized Roubaix like most endurance genre bikes is only available as full bike with disc brake. And yet, Sagan, has his custom Roubaix made with rim brakes...and Peter races his Venge with disc brakes because that is the best config for that bike. But, he goes off the reservation with a custom bike with rim brakes for the Roubaix race when the stock bike is only available with disc. A bit surprising.


Well since stage 9 was won on a disc bike it's fair to say Sagan would have won if he rode the production Specialized Roubaix.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Well since stage 9 was won on a disc bike it's fair to say Sagan would have won if he rode the production Specialized Roubaix.


Not exactly. His Roubaix for what its worth is more Tarmac than Roubaix....effectively a Tarmac with future shock...certainly in geometry....nothing Roubaix about it other than tire clearance. Marketing at its worst.

But agree that type of brakes had nothing to do with who won that brutal stage and being objective a credit to disc brake integrity for making it over that brutal surface. We know disc's can take the beating because they are virtually all that is available off road. Perhaps surprising that Sagan would even request a rim brake version of the Roubaix other than to keep weight down with heavier wheelset because his Roubaix is ridden only on flat rough stages where the braking power of discs is more obscured.

Perhaps the most striking take away of that stage that bloodied the best riders in the world...surface was just brutal in spots...was how fast they averaged at close to 30 miles per hour of getting pounded for hours. Supermen.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

11spd said:


> Not exactly. His Roubaix for what its worth is more Tarmac than Roubaix....effectively a Tarmac with future shock...certainly in geometry....nothing Roubaix about it other than tire clearance. Marketing at its worst.
> 
> But agree that type of brakes had nothing to do with who won that brutal stage and being objective a credit to disc brake integrity for making it over that brutal surface. We know disc's can take the beating because they are virtually all that is available off road. Perhaps surprising that Sagan would even request a rim brake version of the Roubaix other than to keep weight down with heavier wheelset because his Roubaix is ridden only on flat rough stages where the braking power of discs is more obscured.
> 
> Perhaps the most striking take away of that stage that bloodied the best riders in the world...surface was just brutal in spots...was how fast they averaged at close to 30 miles per hour of *getting pounded for hours*. Supermen.



For hours? Try less than one, all totaled. Stage 9 was 160 km long and only had 22km of pave, which even at a "slow" pace (for the ProTour) 40kph, is only 30 minutes.

For perspective the Dirty Kanza 200 race is 200 miles of completely not-paved fun ...and this year the winner average 19 MPH or about 10 hours (actually "getting pounded for hours")...Fun Fact, Jensie Voigt was at DK200 this year, and finished 100-down or so....he had many creative and memorable things to say about doing it.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Not exactly. His Roubaix for what its worth is more Tarmac than Roubaix....effectively a Tarmac with future shock...certainly in geometry....nothing Roubaix about it other than tire clearance. Marketing at its worst.
> 
> But agree that type of brakes had nothing to do with who won that brutal stage and being objective a credit to disc brake integrity for making it over that brutal surface. We know disc's can take the beating because they are virtually all that is available off road. Perhaps surprising that Sagan would even request a rim brake version of the Roubaix other than to keep weight down with heavier wheelset because his Roubaix is ridden only on flat rough stages where the braking power of discs is more obscured.
> 
> Perhaps the most striking take away of that stage that bloodied the best riders in the world...surface was just brutal in spots...was how fast they averaged at close to 30 miles per hour of getting pounded for hours. Supermen.


You missed my point. Disc brakes aren’t slower under any circumstances despite all of the push back against them. They are more aero than rim brakes. Moving the draggy parts to the center of the wheel where air flow is turbulent at best anyway instead of having a rim brake caliper screwing up the air flow across the entire frame. Now air can flow smoothly around the upper fork and steer tube. At the very lease there is no disadvantage to having disc brakes on a flat stage and it opens up tire choices especially for rough roads.

For climbing the pro’s climbing bikes will be at minumim weight with or without disc brakes. The discs allow for lighter rims since they don’t need a beefy brake track. Instead the weight is moved to the center if the wheel where is has less inertia which can improve acceleration for attacks. Again at the very least they aren’t a disadvantage.

To boot discs have smooth, predictable and precise braking quality.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> You missed my point. Disc brakes aren’t slower under any circumstances despite all of the push back against them. They are more aero than rim brakes. Moving the draggy parts to the center of the wheel where air flow is turbulent at best anyway instead of having a rim brake caliper screwing up the air flow across the entire frame. Now air can flow smoothly around the upper fork and steer tube. At the very lease there is no disadvantage to having disc brakes on a flat stage and it opens up tire choices especially for rough roads.
> 
> For climbing the pro’s climbing bikes will be at minumim weight with or without disc brakes. The discs allow for lighter rims since they don’t need a beefy brake track. Instead the weight is moved to the center if the wheel where is has less inertia which can improve acceleration for attacks. Again at the very least they aren’t a disadvantage.
> 
> To boot discs have smooth, predictable and precise braking quality.


You don't know me but I don't really miss many points. I have been at this for decades buttressed by a design background I am sure that nobody here has.

We almost universally disagree and too tedious to dissect what you wrote point by point...including all bikes at the UCI weight limit you posit which is absurd. 

FWIW in the climbing stage today, the guy who won the race was on a rim brake Tarmac. Vast majority of bikes were rim brake in the climbing stage. No coincidence in spite of what you wrote which I disagree with.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> You don't know me but I don't really miss many points. I have been at this for decades buttressed by a design background I am sure that nobody here has.
> 
> We almost universally disagree and too tedious to dissect what you wrote point by point...including all bikes at the UCI weight limit you posit which is absurd.
> 
> FWIW in the climbing stage today, the guy who won the race was on a rim brake Tarmac. Vast majority of bikes were rim brake in the climbing stage. No coincidence in spite of what you wrote which I disagree with.


I’d love for you to explain how disc brakes are a disadvantage with data to back it up.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Marc said:


> For hours? Try less than one, all totaled. Stage 9 was 160 km long and only had 22km of pave, which even at a "slow" pace (for the ProTour) 40kph, is only 30 minutes.
> 
> For perspective the Dirty Kanza 200 race is 200 miles of completely not-paved fun ...and this year the winner average 19 MPH or about 10 hours (actually "getting pounded for hours")...Fun Fact, Jensie Voigt was at DK200 this year, and finished 100-down or so....he had many creative and memorable things to say about doing it.


Good perspective Marc and you are right. Poor description on my part.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> I’d love for you to explain how disc brakes are a disadvantage with data to back it up.


Plan wasn't to relitigate disc versus rim in this thread. Plenty of threads Dave that dissect the aerodynamic and weight difference.

Suffice to say that Specialized provides the bikes to the teams who race for them. The winner of the climbing stage today chose a rim brake version of the Tarmac. No surprise the Tarmac was chosen over the Venge for the climbing stage. Unlike what you wrote, the Tarmac can come in at 15 lbs and many of the Venge discs that have even won stages this year as Tao mentioned are not at the 15 lb UCI limit. The competitor that won the stage could have chosen to ride a Tarmac disc. He didn't. Specializes sells both. He chose the rim brake version. He could have also been on the more aero Venge with disc brake. He wasn't. He chose the rim brake version of the more round tube Tarmac with aero cues for this year. You will see more and more rim brake...and a few less aero bikes in the forthcoming climbing stages. This is largely due to weight difference. In this TdF, 10 stages in, the peloton is still almost overwhelmingly choosing rim brake bikes. Yes, the flat stages have been won on disc brake bikes...mostly aero framesets...the Venge having a lot of success only sold 'now' with disc. 

There are reasons for the choices of the pros including old conventions die hard and point of thread, this is in spite of an overwhelming push to sell more expensive hydraulic disc brakes on flagship model bikes sold at bike shops that are raced in the TdF.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

Sagan chose rim brakes for stage 9 due to faster tire change and more neutral support for rim brake wheels. Given the way the TDF is run wheel support can make the difference in such a stage. 

The real question is if anyone ran tubeless for Stage 9....


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> Sagan chose rim brakes for stage 9 due to faster tire change and more neutral support for rim brake wheels. Given the way the TDF is run wheel support can make the difference in such a stage.
> 
> The real question is if anyone ran tubeless for Stage 9....


I believe you are right about Sagan in the cobble stage. Perhaps what is surprising 'at the pro level' is...amateurs obsess about the inadequacy of descending at 60 mph on rim brakes. Pros on the other hand, don't care. They almost universally choose rim brakes on climbing stages and more disc bikes which by comparison are still vastly in the minority on flat stages. Aside from wheel versus full bike changes which is the elephant in the peloton without a doubt, oddly the biggest discriminator is 'weight' between rim and disc in spite of UCI limit of 15 lbs. Braking power or efficiency seems to have little to do with it because intuitively they would choose disc brakes for climbing aka descending stages and yet they almost universally choose rim brakes for these stages.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

JoePAz said:


> Sagan chose rim brakes for stage 9 due to faster tire change and more neutral support for rim brake wheels. Given the way the TDF is run wheel support can make the difference in such a stage.
> 
> The real question is if anyone ran tubeless for Stage 9....


I think Sagan's decision made sense. Getting a flat on the cobble is a solid possibility and with the narrow roads the the team cars were a long way off and getting a new wheel could cause a serious loss of time. Perhaps at some point the peloton will consolidate on a disc wheel standard and this issue may be moot


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

DaveG said:


> I think Sagan's decision made sense. Getting a flat on the cobble is a solid possibility and with the narrow roads the the team cars were a long way off and getting a new wheel could cause a serious loss of time. Perhaps at some point the peloton will consolidate on a disc wheel standard and this issue may be moot


Not exactly. If full bike replacement cannot be implemented due to the narrow roads you mention aka access of team cars then it will come down to 'speed of wheel changes'. Most studies suggests a conventional rim brake wheel can be changed faster. Further we have talked about potential for disc rotor/pad rub when implementing a wheel change due to variance in wheel tolerances. Rim brake bikes are less sensitive to rub and can be tuned on the fly by the cam opener.

There is nuance to these decisions. But yes, as you say, perhaps further migration to disc will occur in future years as some of these things are addressed...or not.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> I believe you are right about Sagan in the cobble stage. Perhaps what is surprising 'at the pro level' is...amateurs obsess about the inadequacy of descending at 60 mph on rim brakes. Pros on the other hand, don't care. They almost universally choose rim brakes on climbing stages and more disc bikes which by comparison are still vastly in the minority on flats stages. Aside from wheel versus full bike changes which is the elephant in the peloton without a doubt, oddly the biggest discriminator is 'weight' between rim and disc in spite of UCI limit of 15 lbs. Braking power or efficiency seems to have little to do with it because intuitively they would choose disc brakes for climbing aka descending stages and yet they almost universally choose rim brakes for these stages.


Since you keep referencing the Tarmac, both the rim and disc versions are below the UCI minimum weight with the rim brake version only 10oz less (according to Specialized). Both bikes would need ballast to meet the requirements, so the weight argument doesn't hold up. In fact I rode with someone yesterday on a new tarmac disc that was a size 58cm and it was at a hair over 15lbs with pedals, a power meter, and cages. So that only leaves the wheel change issue, whether real or perceived (seems they are even doing bike swaps on rim brake bikes) as the most likely reason. 
Additionally, as I have mentioned many times before, the pros "don't care" because they are riding on closed roads where they can cut across corners to straighten them out without worry of oncoming cars and don't need to brake as much into corners as a consumer would have to. As I have also said many times before, though I have experienced first hand the difference in late braking on disc vs rim, the risk involved in trying to out brake a competitor into a corner is probably not worth taking in most cases.









.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> The winner of the climbing stage today chose a rim brake version of the Tarmac. No surprise the Tarmac was chosen over the Venge for the climbing stage.


 hey mr. *"I'm buttressed by a design background"*, some of us haven't watched the stage yet so spare us the spoilers!


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

After today's stage (10), I was expecting Sagan to be riding the tarmac rim brake. But he was still on the venge disc. Rafal Majka was on the rim brake tarmac... So was majority of the peloton (rim brakes). I guess rim brakes are still king on mountain stages.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Since you keep referencing the Tarmac, both the rim and disc versions are below the UCI minimum weight with the rim brake version only 10oz less (according to Specialized). Both bikes would need ballast to meet the requirements, so the weight argument doesn't hold up. In fact I rode with someone yesterday on a new tarmac disc that was a size 58cm and it was at a hair over 15lbs with pedals, a power meter, and cages. So that only leaves the wheel change issue, whether real or perceived (seems they are even doing bike swaps on rim brake bikes) as the most likely reason.
> Additionally, as I have mentioned many times before, the pros "don't care" because they are riding on closed roads where they can cut across corners to straighten them out without worry of oncoming cars and don't need to brake as much into corners as a consumer would have to. As I have also said many times before, though I have experienced first hand the difference in late braking on disc vs rim, the risk involved in trying to out brake a competitor into a corner is probably not worth taking in most cases.


You just stacked the deck in favor of disc. In spite of that, pros choose rim not disc. Surely you don't believe your judgement is better than theirs.

How about pros actually prefer braking of rim brakes? Doesn't seem feasible does it. And yet, I bet if you count in the peloton Tarmac SL6 bikes, vast majority are rim versus disc in spite of you saying no weight penalty.

I believe your closed road thesis is valid btw. There isn't a lot of braking in the peloton. Point is, for the way they ride, they vote by what they ride because I am sure Specialized would want them all on disc, no question which translates to higher profit.

So for 60 mph descents, they are 'choosing' rim brake bikes is the point. I wouldn't have guessed this dynamic and the purpose of the thread, to speak to it. But it is what it is as the saying goes.

Wheel changes and/or potential for disc rub without the opportunity to tune it out if it happens has to be the overarching reason for vast majority of disc brakes in the peloton this year versus very few teams on disc. What is shocking if this takeaway is extrapolated is...wheel change ability trumps difference in braking performance. That is perhaps most surprising. But time doesn't lie and without question teams test and in fact ride both types extensively...certainly Sagan does...and yet will still choose rim brake for a lot of his riding.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

eugenetsang said:


> After today's stage (10), I was expecting Sagan to be riding the tarmac rim brake. But he was still on the venge disc. Rafal Majka was on the rim brake tarmac... So was majority of the peloton (rim brakes). I guess rim brakes are still king on mountain stages.


So it seems. Lets see when the roads really start to point up if Sagan doesn't pull the Tarmac rim out of the shed. He must be digging that Venge disc tho.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> hey mr. *"I'm buttressed by a design background"*, some of us haven't watched the stage yet so spare us the spoilers!


Ain't gonna happen in my thread. Why should I appease a troll like you? Just know there is going to be discussion about the tour as it relates to disc versus rim and 'don't come here'.

Go troll somewhere else. You never had a single substantive contribution to this thread. If you continue to troll here, I will post who won the stage.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

11spd said:


> So it seems. Lets see when the roads really start to point up if Sagan doesn't pull the Tarmac rim out of the shed. He must be digging that Venge disc tho.


IMO, since specialized is paying a big chunk of his salary and created a "Sagan" line for him to market for all his fanboys/girls... I'm guessing somewhere in his contract specifies that he needs to ride/market his Venge disc... Especially since the next few days are mountain stages, he has no chance of winning... It's a good PR campaign for Specialized/Sagan. 

Since Rafal Majka is Team Bora Hansgrohe's GC/mountain stage contender, he's riding the lightest bike possible... I'm with you 11Speed, let's see what Sagan does when the routes get super steep. I'm hoping he switches over to the Tarmac rim brakes!


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

eugenetsang said:


> IMO, since specialized is paying a big chunk of his salary and created a "Sagan" line for him to market for all his fanboys/girls... I'm guessing somewhere in his contract specifies that he needs to ride/market his Venge disc... Especially since the next few days are mountain stages, he has no chance of winning... It's a good PR campaign for Specialized/Sagan.
> 
> Since Rafal Majka is Team Bora Hansgrohe's GC/mountain stage contender, he's riding the lightest bike possible... I'm with you 11Speed, let's see what Sagan does when the routes get super steep. I'm hoping he switches over to the Tarmac rim brakes!


And I am with you eugene. You nailed what I believe to be at the core and the purpose of thread. What is shocking is...the other guys in the peloton that race for Specialized aren't 'all' on disc brake versions of their bike because that is what Specialized are shilling at their bike shops. Truly is remarkable. Most of us know that discs stop better than rim. Of course many of us don't want to bother with discs but the riders don't have to pay or wrench on their bikes.  They are being paid to ride by Specialized. I expected discs to vastly trump rim brake bikes this year. Its hard to find a $7K road bike at a bike shop that isn't disc. Opposite dynamic is true. Rim brakes probably outnumber disc 5 to 1, maybe more...in spite of 'why companies like Specialized, Trek, Giant, Pinarello are even at the race. Advertising their products.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

11spd said:


> So it seems. Lets see when the roads really start to point up if Sagan doesn't pull the Tarmac rim out of the shed. He must be digging that Venge disc tho.


There is a Tarmac Peter Sagan Special edition also. Both are painted the same and look pretty similar at quick glance. The easist way to tell is the Venge as thicker looking downtube as compared to the Tarmac. Easy to see side by side, but not so easy I think on the road if you don't have one to compare to. The seat post and stem are different, but those are harder to spot when a rider is on the bike. 

Just remember they have Sagan selling e-bikes now... Ok maybe not selling, but showing how even he can be beat up hill by grandma on an e-bike.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

11spd, I knew what you were getting at when you had created this thread. I too was expecting the entire peloton to transition from rim brakes to disc brakes in 2018 (since all the bike manufacturers were pushing disc only at the LBS). But was shocked to see a good amount of riders were still on the trusty rim brake setup! 

More importantly, I was more angry that it's nearly impossible for me to walk into my LBS in 2018 to purchase a bike with rim brakes! And having their sales associates trying to convince me to switch over to disc? Why? Because they can make commission off of me? Or bike manufacturers are trying to brainwash their consumers that discs are better than rims? I understand that discs are better, no doubt about that. But for a lot of us, discs are not necessary. I don't ride in crappy conditions. I ride maybe 6 months or so out of the entire year. I'm in the NY/NJ area where weather sucks... My SL2 tarmac does just fine with rim brakes and 
Swiss Stops Princee pads!


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> There is a Tarmac Peter Sagan Special edition also. Both are painted the same and look pretty similar at quick glance. The easist way to tell is the Venge as thicker looking downtube as compared to the Tarmac. Easy to see side by side, but not so easy I think on the road if you don't have one to compare to. The seat post and stem are different, but those are harder to spot when a rider is on the bike.
> 
> Just remember they have Sagan selling e-bikes now... Ok maybe not selling, but showing how even he can be beat up hill by grandma on an e-bike.


Good points. Honestly Spesh made the Tarmac even more compelling with the latest redesign by incorporating aero cues. 

One of the biggest laughs when riding with my friends was getting passed by grandpa on an e-bike up a steep hill where we ride.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Actually, Sagan was on his disc brake tarmac for today's stage and not the disc brake venge. I believe that they only made his "Sagan Collection" Tarmac in disc so unless he wanted to ride his old tarmac instead of marketing his new one he didn't have much choice but to use the disc one. Stage was won on a rim tarmac though. Not sure how far out the breakaway started but I'm sure having a climbing bike that is as aero as the original venge didn't hurt.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

eugenetsang said:


> 11spd, I knew what you were getting at when you had created this thread. I too was expecting the entire peloton to transition from rim brakes to disc brakes in 2018 (since all the bike manufacturers were pushing disc only at the LBS). But was shocked to see a good amount of riders were still on the trusty rim brake setup!
> 
> More importantly, I was more angry that it's nearly impossible for me to walk into my LBS in 2018 to purchase a bike with rim brakes! And having their sales associates trying to convince me to switch over to disc? Why? Because they can make commission off of me? Or bike manufacturers are trying to brainwash their consumers that discs are better than rims? I understand that discs are better, no doubt about that. But for a lot of us, discs are not necessary. I don't ride in crappy conditions. I ride maybe 6 months or so out of the entire year. I'm in the NY/NJ area where weather sucks... My SL2 tarmac does just fine with rim brakes and
> Swiss Stops Princee pads!


We are on the same page. I don't have the same level of Specialized hate as expressed on the web. I own two Specialized bikes.
But...their marketing apparatus is in full song and exactly the purpose of the thread. We know and many have been victim of bad designs being perpetrated under the guise of 'being better' and paying a lot more. Disc brakes have tradeoffs like rim brakes. Just different tradeoffs. Non tech guys who can't find a rim brake roadbike like the sheep they are, end up with a disc brake bike, good, bad or indifferent.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

taodemon said:


> Actually, Sagan was on his disc brake tarmac for today's stage and not the disc brake venge. I believe that they only made his "Sagan Collection" Tarmac in disc so unless he wanted to ride his old tarmac instead of marketing his new one he didn't have much choice but to use the disc one. Stage was won on a rim tarmac though. Not sure how far out the breakaway started but I'm sure having a climbing bike that is as aero as the original venge didn't hurt.


You always come through with great perspective Tao, thanks.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> You just stacked the deck in favor of disc. In spite of that, pros choose rim not disc. Surely you don't believe your judgement is better than theirs.


Huh?! :skep:



> How about pros actually prefer braking of rim brakes? Doesn't seem feasible does it. And yet, I bet if you count in the peloton Tarmac SL6 bikes, vast majority are rim versus disc in spite of you saying no weight penalty.


You are making assumptions, we don't know what they prefer and pro riders notoriously are resistant to change. Even still, from what I've seen, many pros are riding disc for training, and since there is no pressure on wheel changes, one could also make an assumption that they prefer disc when they are riding on their own 




> I believe your closed road thesis is valid btw. There isn't a lot of braking in the peloton. Point is, for the way they ride, they vote by what they ride because I am sure Specialized would want them all on disc, no question which translates to higher profit.


No, it appears they vote on not losing time because of a potential wheel change issue.

And again, marketing is about brand recognition not selling a particular item. If it was really about direct marketing disc for profit, all the riders would be forced on disc. 
And as I've noted so many times before, most people become fans of the team after they bought the bike, not the other way around. People are drawn to bikes more on looks, brand loyalty, or what is available locally more than who is racing on them.



> So for 60 mph descents, they are 'choosing' rim brake bikes is the point. I wouldn't have guessed this dynamic and the purpose of the thread, to speak to it. But it is what it is as the saying goes.


The speed they reach is irrelevant if they don't have to slow much for the corners and obviously rim brakes have worked "good enough" for their situation, so why take a wheel change risk on something else?




> Wheel changes and/or potential for disc rub without the opportunity to tune it out if it happens has to be the overarching reason for vast majority of disc brakes in the peloton this year versus very few teams on disc. What is shocking if this takeaway is extrapolated is...wheel change ability trumps difference in braking performance. That is perhaps most surprising. But time doesn't lie and without question teams test and in fact ride both types extensively...certainly Sagan does...and yet will still choose rim brake for a lot of his riding.


No, wheel change ability trumps braking performance that they don't have the need to take advantage of. 
If you had read the article I've posted twice now, Sagan says he prefers disc and that he planned to ride the Venge disc the whole race with exception to the cobble stages because of flats.
And seeing how he is probably the most sought after rider in pro racing, I am sure he gets to dictate what he rides or doesn't ride more than anyone. I know a regional pro who dictates in her contract that she won't ride Sram even when the team is sponsored by them, so if someone at that level can make such demands, no doubt Sagan can.

Now I still fail to see what the point of all this discussion is other than to try and prove that since, according to you, the "pros prefer rim brakes" therefore we should all prefer rim brakes. By that argument, no one should buy an aero bike, since the pros seem to not prefer them either. 

The fact is, you are fooling yourself if you think the bike actually makes a difference, the only reason why a disc brake bike hasn't won a climbing stage yet is because the top climbers are afraid to take a chance on them. PERIOD









.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

11spd said:


> You always come through with great perspective Tao, thanks.


Thanks Tao for the correction. I thought it was his Venge! As JoePaz had said, they both look so much alike at quick glance


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

eugenetsang said:


> Thanks Tao for the correction. I thought it was his Venge! As JoePaz had said, they both look so much alike at quick glance


I was unsure at first glance as I had seen the discs (it was actually a different picture I saw) but then I picked up the tube shapes and in the case of this picture the exposed brake cables which on his venge are all hidden away in the stem.

I would venture a guess that his would be the only disc brake tarmac you will see in the tour as everyone else will likely be on the same rim brake tarmacs they have used all season when not riding the venge on the flat stages.

Maybe next year will be a better show for disc brake usage in the peloton? Until we see disc wheel swaps being as fast as rim brake swaps there is a good chance they mostly stick to rim brakes.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Huh?! :skep:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for proving the case for all the rim brakes in the peloton. Your words should line up with reality.

And, like Sagan other than winning a couple of flat stages, like he even has a voice of what matters in the race.
Where is he now? About 50th place after 10 stages? After the climbing stages? Middle of pack if he finishes. Like what he rides even matters and probably why he rides disc, more for marketing than to be competitive which he can't be. 
You do know that Sagan rode rim in the Roubaix stage right? Now why would he do that? Because one of the few stages he had a shot at winning even though he got beat. He is never going to win the TdF on any bike.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

I honestly think disc brakes are superior technology to rim brakes. By decoupling the braking function from the rim you can optimized both braking and rim performance factors. That said we are still early in development and while the disc systems work it not clear to me they have been fully optimized for disc. Much of disc road braking tech is dereived from Mtn bikes and that is a solid base, but not entirely the same. Rim technology is really not yet optimized for disc as few if any rim have been redesigned. It it just simpler to use the same rim than create a new one. 

If I were buying a new road bike these days I would ask "why NOT disc" rather than why disc. There are reasons not to for the consumer. Those could include a supply of nice rim brake wheels. Lower purchase price or simply not wanting to go away from what you know. Rim brakes are ok for the most part, but like in Mtn biking I see them going away over time. You will be able to get spares for a long time, but new bikes just won't have rim brakes. The cost increases are actually pretty low given the establish based for Mtn bikes. They have cheap disc brakes for cheap bikes and it not that hard to make those into cheap road discs too. It is not like electric shifting where there currently is no "cheap low end version". And we know the speed impact to electronic shifting vs cable is not existent. However the feel to a rider is very different.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> Thanks for proving the case for all the rim brakes in the peloton. Your words should line up with reality.


Yes, but not your "reality" 


.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

taodemon said:


> I was unsure at first glance as I had seen the discs (it was actually a different picture I saw) but then I picked up the tube shapes and in the case of this picture the exposed brake cables which on his venge are all hidden away in the stem.


I can also see the 4 bolts of the normal style stem as compared to the aero style on the Venge. 

As for the rest of the filed. Some of this may have to do with how the teams get bikes. Sagan would be on the latest and greatest from Specialized since he is their rolling billboard. For some of the other teams I don't know how often they get new bikes and equipment. If the team has to buy that stuff then save money and ride the rim brake bikes for at least a season and put money elese where. Don't forget about the cost for extra wheels they have laying around. Now if the teams get bikes cheap or even for free the Mfg may not have a full set of bikes for a team right now. If they have to select who gets the latest and greatest some teams may not be on the list for 2018. Maybe it will for 2019.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Yes, but not your "reality"
> 
> 
> .


No, I accept the world as it is. Pros choose rim. You want the world to be as you see it as a hopeless disc fanboi.
In case you don't know, this is philosophy. Your view is called ideological. My view is pragmatic.
I want my car to fly dam it...lol.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

taodemon said:


> Maybe next year will be a better show for disc brake usage in the peloton? Until we see disc wheel swaps being as fast as rim brake swaps there is a good chance they mostly stick to rim brakes.


Tao, don't quote me on this, but I think it was Bob Roll on NBC Sports that said Team Quick Step uses power tools to speed up their tire changes. I was hoping to see Quick Step get a puncture and see them use their power tools in action. Too bad that never happened.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> I honestly think disc brakes are superior technology to rim brakes. By decoupling the braking function from the rim you can optimized both braking and rim performance factors. That said we are still early in development and while the disc systems work it not clear to me they have been fully optimized for disc. Much of disc road braking tech is dereived from Mtn bikes and that is a solid base, but not entirely the same. Rim technology is really not yet optimized for disc as few if any rim have been redesigned. It it just simpler to use the same rim than create a new one.
> 
> If I were buying a new road bike these days I would ask "why NOT disc" rather than why disc. There are reasons not to for the consumer. Those could include a supply of nice rim brake wheels. Lower purchase price or simply not wanting to go away from what you know. Rim brakes are ok for the most part, but like in Mtn biking I see them going away over time. You will be able to get spares for a long time, but new bikes just won't have rim brakes. The cost increases are actually pretty low given the establish based for Mtn bikes. They have cheap disc brakes for cheap bikes and it not that hard to make those into cheap road discs too. It is not like electric shifting where there currently is no "cheap low end version". And we know the speed impact to electronic shifting vs cable is not existent. However the feel to a rider is very different.


You and pros don't agree. If there is superior technology, it is rim brakes for the simple reason of design evolution. Rim brakes of today are a quantum leap forward of rim brakes of 30 years ago. Disc brakes are in their infancy and have a long way to go.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> No, I accept the world as it is. Pros choose rim. You want the world to be as you see it as a hopeless disc fanboi.
> In case you don't know, this is philosophy. Your view is called ideological. My view is pragmatic.
> I want my car to fly dam it...lol.














.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

11spd said:


> No, I accept the world as it is. Pros choose rim. You want the world to be as you see it as a hopeless disc fanboi.
> In case you don't know, this is philosophy. Your view is called ideological. My view is pragmatic.
> I want my car to fly dam it...lol.


If my race depended on getting spare wheel from neutral support I would run rim brakes. Heck even if I could get disc wheel it was going to take 15 seconds longer than rim I would go rim. That 15 seconds on peleton moving at 25mph is alot of ground to make up. Since I don't have any expectation of quick road side wheel changes I chose to get a disc brake road bike with thru axles. Probably alot slower, but so be it. Heck my new mtn bike uses thru bolts so I need tool to remove them. That is longer than moving lever that was on my older thru axle bikes. The bolt however is lighter. Is that an issue even during a race? No because any flat in a race is a big deal and a few seconds in 15 minute change is not. Tubeless tires on mtn bikes really reduces the occurrence of flats making quick release wheels less critical.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> If my race depended on getting spare wheel from neutral support I would run rim brakes. Heck even if I could get disc wheel it was going to take 15 seconds longer than rim I would go rim. That 15 seconds on peleton moving at 25mph is alot of ground to make up. Since I don't have any expectation of quick road side wheel changes I chose to get a disc brake road bike with thru axles. Probably alot slower, but so be it. Heck my new mtn bike uses thru bolts so I need tool to remove them. That is longer than moving lever that was on my older thru axle bikes. The bolt however is lighter. Is that an issue even during a race? No because any flat in a race is a big deal and a few seconds in 15 minute change is not. Tubeless tires on mtn bikes really reduces the occurrence of flats making quick release wheels less critical.



Yup, I would too. 11sp is up on his high horse trying to appoint a bunch of other reasons for it, all which can be debunked except for the wheel change issue. 



.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

And even the wheel change issue is more perception than reality







I can probably change my front wheel as fast if not faster with disc and thru-axle vs a quick release with a lawyer tab which often takes a couple of tries to get the tension right (not that it even matters to anyone but pro riders)


.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> If my race depended on getting spare wheel from neutral support I would run rim brakes. Heck even if I could get disc wheel it was going to take 15 seconds longer than rim I would go rim. That 15 seconds on peleton moving at 25mph is alot of ground to make up. Since I don't have any expectation of quick road side wheel changes I chose to get a disc brake road bike with thru axles. Probably alot slower, but so be it. Heck my new mtn bike uses thru bolts so I need tool to remove them. That is longer than moving lever that was on my older thru axle bikes. The bolt however is lighter. Is that an issue even during a race? No because any flat in a race is a big deal and a few seconds in 15 minute change is not. Tubeless tires on mtn bikes really reduces the occurrence of flats making quick release wheels less critical.


But respectfully, and this is a big deal. You are absolutely right. Likely comes down to wheel changes and related time rim versus disc at the pro level. What does that say about the braking performance difference between rim versus brake. Minituia. Braking performance difference pales to the time difference between changing a wheel on a rim versus disc brake. These are pros riding at much higher speeds than any amateur will ride, you or me. So, all the disc love, all the coveting of disc braking performance, the pros turn a blind eye to it in favor of expedient wheel changes...this at the speeds pros race their bicycle at the elite level.
To me the true benefit of a disc relative to the downside of cost and maintenance isn't worth it unless an amateur wants the security in the mountains. Pros don't 'need' discs brakes. Has the TdF race winner ever been on disc? No. Froome hasn't and isn't this year. 

I think I will invent something new for the modern bicycle and then through marketing convince all the Poly Sci majors they have to have it. Maybe a new kind of chain and convince everybody its better even though its more complicated, costs more and is higher maintenance and matters 0 to performance and pay Sagan to ride it.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Yup, I would too. 11sp is up on his high horse trying to appoint a bunch of other reasons for it, all which can be debunked except for the wheel change issue.
> 
> .


My horse is so high MoPho, I can barely see your point.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

eugenetsang said:


> Tao, don't quote me on this, but I think it was Bob Roll on NBC Sports that said Team Quick Step uses power tools to speed up their tire changes. I was hoping to see Quick Step get a puncture and see them use their power tools in action. Too bad that never happened.


This shows a still photo (#5) on them using it. I cant see in the photo what the "drill" is actually latching on to. I could see where with some practice you could do this almost as fast by hand though


https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/bike-hacks-world-tour-mechanic-edition-49023/


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

DaveG said:


> This shows a still photo (#5) on them using it. I cant see in the photo what the "drill" is actually latching on to. I could see where with some practice you could do this almost as fast by hand though
> 
> 
> https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/bike-hacks-world-tour-mechanic-edition-49023/


Don't know if you saw the mechanic in the race that had a bionic arm with integrated disc brake axle wrench. Of course he was working on one of the few disc brake teams and next year, maybe out of a job. :wink5:


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> And even the wheel change issue is more perception than reality
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They could have changed it faster but had smoked too much ganja and were talking too much jive.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

11spd said:


> You and pros don't agree. If there is superior technology, it is rim brakes for the simple reason of design evolution. Rim brakes of today are a quantum leap forward of rim brakes of 30 years ago. Disc brakes are in their infancy and have a long way to go.


Disc brakes have not been optimized for use in the Pro peleton yet. That does not mean they are inferior technology. The first automobiles were inferior to horses if you had to get from point A to point B. However cars were superior technology. Just needed development. In autoracing you often see advancements and rarely are they instantly the best and winning. Often times early on the new technogly needs more development before it surpases the tried and true. However it always occurs. Ferrari stuck with drum brakes for years until the they were beating badly by disc brakes and finally gave in. Same with front vs rear engine. It look a few seasons for teams to understand the importance of aero downforce on race cars, but in time all use them. 

The improment may not be dramatic, but it is there. However for 2018? I doubt with over winner and all the major placings will be dictated by brake type. That unless there is a horrible change from a GC rider who can't get disc to work. Any advantage that rider may have would be so small as to not be noticeable even if existed.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> But respectfully, and this is a big deal. You are absolutely right. Likely comes down to wheel changes and related time rim versus disc at the pro level. What does that say about the braking performance difference between rim versus brake. Minituia. Braking performance difference pales to the time difference between changing a wheel on a rim versus disc brake. These are pros riding at much higher speeds than any amateur will ride, you or me. So, all the disc love, all the coveting of disc braking performance, the pros turn a blind eye to it in favor of expedient wheels changes...this at the speeds pros race their bicycle at the elite level.


What it says is nothing!
Apparently you don't learn, I just pointed out to you how the speeds they ride is irrelevant if they don't have to use the brakes much because of the closed roads, so of course they will want expedited wheel changes over better brakes, they have more to lose in a failed wheel change than they do to gain on a descent. 




> These are pros riding at much higher speeds than any amateur will ride, you or me.


Speak for yourself old man flatlander 







> To me the true benefit of a disc relative to the downside of cost and maintenance isn't worth it unless an amateur wants the security in the mountains. Pros don't 'need' discs brakes. Has the TdF race winner ever been on disc? No. Froome hasn't and isn't this year.
> 
> I think I will invent something new for the modern bicycle and then through marketing convince all the Poly Sci majors they have to have it. Maybe a new kind of chain and convince everybody its better even though its more complicated, costs more and is higher maintenance and matters 0 to performance and pay Sagan to ride it.
> 10 Minutes Ago








.


.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

> Has the TdF race winner ever been on disc?



:lol::shocked::lol::rolleyes5:


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> Disc brakes have not been optimized for use in the Pro peleton yet. That does not mean they are inferior technology. The first automobiles were inferior to horses if you had to get from point A to point B. However cars were superior technology. Just needed development. In autoracing you often see advancements and rarely are they instantly the best and winning. Often times early on the new technogly needs more development before it surpases the tried and true. However it always occurs. Ferrari stuck with drum brakes for years until the they were beating badly by disc brakes and finally gave in. Same with front vs rear engine. It look a few seasons for teams to understand the importance of aero downforce on race cars, but in time all use them.
> 
> The improment may not be dramatic, but it is there. However for 2018? I doubt with over winner and all the major placings will be dictated by brake type. That unless there is a horrible change from a GC rider who can't get disc to work. Any advantage that rider may have would be so small as to not be noticeable even if existed.


I agree. Comes down to definition of superior technology. One could submit that 'for roadbikes in racing'...not the greater mass of autos or motorcycles, that rim brakes are superior technology compared to disc brakes, because they are lighter, more aerodynamic and not fraught with wheel change encumbrances. Over time this pendulum could swing to disc brakes but in 2018 at least within the pro racing community, pro teams deem rim brakes without the redundancy of rotors to be the better technology.

In some ways, the disc versus rim debate is not unlike the electric versus gasoline car debate. Maybe one day, electric cars will take over as battery and motor tech continue to evolve and computers become more refined aka AI becomes more integrated into the architecture. But that day hasn't come yet.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

11spd said:


> ..
> I think I will invent something new for the modern bicycle and then through marketing convince all the Poly Sci majors they have to have it. Maybe a new kind of chain and convince everybody its better even though its more complicated, costs more and is higher maintenance and matters 0 to performance and pay Sagan to ride it.


Too late Specialzied already did that. It is called the "Sagan Collection" Same frame/bike but with special paint with Sagan's name on it for $750 more than normal bike. 

Salesman: " Here the new S-works Venge and here is the Sagan S-works Venge" 
Joe Blow consumer: "What is the difference?" 
Salesman: "See this picture on the wall? That is Sagan winning that Tour on this bike!". 
Joe Blow consumer: "You mean he raced this bike and and won?"
Salesman: (with a big smile) "Yes"
Joe Blow consumer: "This exact frame?"
Salesman: (with a worry starting to appear) "Yes"
Joe Blow consumer: "I thought Sagan rode a 56? and this is 54!"
Salesman: (really worried now) "Yeah ok it just looks like that bike he rode"
Joe Blow consumer: "What about the cheaper one? Is that that same frame and same parts with different paint? For $750 more?"
Salesmane: (dejected) "Yeah"
Joe Blow consumer: "Man that is crazy. I will just go with the regular Sworks"


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

11spd said:


> .
> In some ways, the disc versus rim debate is not unlike the electric versus gasoline car debate. Maybe one day, electric cars will take over as battery and motor tech continue to evolve and computers become more refined aka AI becomes more integrated into the architecture. But that day hasn't come yet.


when it comes to electric cars there are two problems. One emotional and the other practical. Emotional is that electric cars are rather bland. They don't live and breath like combustion engines. That passion is big part of car culture. However it is irrational. The practical issue has nothing to do with the motors. Electric motors are pretty well advanced as you can see in trains and diesel electric trains and wire powered trains. The issue is batteries and energy storage. A tank of gas is very energy dense and quickly refilled plus has a very large installed base. Batteries and their required charging systems are not where near as practical right now and it will take a major leap in technology to get there. I won't even bring up the material/environmental challenges in battery design and development, but that stuff is not free and clean as some like to make it out to be. One day those technological changes may be overcome, but it will take very long time. Disc brakes are already the standard for Mtn bikes and road cars with only a few minor issues to make them fully common place in bike racing. Still we are talking a few years and expect less than 5.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> Too late Specialzied already did that. It is called the "Sagan Collection" Same frame/bike but with special paint with Sagan's name on it for $750 more than normal bike.
> 
> Salesman: " Here the new S-works Venge and here is the Sagan S-works Venge"
> Joe Blow consumer: "What is the difference?"
> ...


haha. But the only frameset that I am willing to pay over the "regular" model is the "Sagan Superstar"! That paint scheme is so sexy!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> when it comes to electric cars there are two problems. One emotional and the other practical. Emotional is that electric cars are rather bland. They don't live and breath like combustion engines. That passion is big part of car culture. However it is irrational. The practical issue has nothing to do with the motors. Electric motors are pretty well advanced as you can see in trains and diesel electric trains and wire powered trains. The issue is batteries and energy storage. A tank of gas is very energy dense and quickly refilled plus has a very large installed base. Batteries and their required charging systems are not where near as practical right now and it will take a major leap in technology to get there. I won't even bring up the material/environmental challenges in battery design and development, but that stuff is not free and clean as some like to make it out to be. One day those technological changes may be overcome, but it will take very long time. Disc brakes are already the standard for Mtn bikes and road cars with only a few minor issues to make them fully common place in bike racing. Still we are talking a few years and expect less than 5.


ugh, Formula E... is not boring at all. It's just getting started. Battery tech is still improving quite a bit as we speak and it's no where near its peak, lots of talks about using nano tech and graphene to improve battery energy density. It'll come. As for electricity infrastructure it will take time, but it's also intentionally HINDERED by the oil and established car manufacturers (in the US). However, in China, adoption rate of EVs is much much more rapidly because that's what their government wants and they aren't boggled with any established car industry. Charging stations in the big cities are quite impressive if you ask me. US needs to get with the EV program on infrastructure.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Since you keep referencing the Tarmac, both the rim and disc versions are below the UCI minimum weight with the rim brake version only 10oz less (according to Specialized). Both bikes would need ballast to meet the requirements, so the weight argument doesn't hold up. *In fact I rode with someone yesterday on a new tarmac disc that was a size 58cm and it was at a hair over 15lbs with pedals, a power meter, and cages.* So that only leaves the wheel change issue, whether real or perceived (seems they are even doing bike swaps on rim brake bikes) as the most likely reason.
> Additionally, as I have mentioned many times before, the pros "don't care" because they are riding on closed roads where they can cut across corners to straighten them out without worry of oncoming cars and don't need to brake as much into corners as a consumer would have to. As I have also said many times before, though I have experienced first hand the difference in late braking on disc vs rim, the risk involved in trying to out brake a competitor into a corner is probably not worth taking in most cases.


bol sh!t. 58cm disc and 15lb don't exist, not even with tubular. But hey when the UCI is gonna drop the weight limit to 12 lbs, then what you gonna do then, mr "I'm a late braker". See you at the top slowpoke. LMAO


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> bol sh!t. 58cm disc and 15lb don't exist, not even with tubular. But hey when the UCI is gonna drop the weight limit to 12 lbs, then what you gonna do then, mr "I'm a late braker". See you at the top slowpoke. LMAO



I'll wait for you at the bottom Mr Napoleon complex :lol:

Bike Check: Fairwheel Bikes’ 5.1kg Factor O2 disc brake road bike | road.cc


Oh, and a 6.63kg Tarmac disc 

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=147530&start=360#p1388573





.


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

11spd said:


> I believe you are right about Sagan in the cobble stage. Perhaps what is surprising 'at the pro level' is...amateurs obsess about the inadequacy of descending at 60 mph on rim brakes. Pros on the other hand, don't care. They almost universally choose rim brakes on climbing stages and more disc bikes which by comparison are still vastly in the minority on flat stages. Aside from wheel versus full bike changes which is the elephant in the peloton without a doubt, oddly the biggest discriminator is 'weight' between rim and disc in spite of UCI limit of 15 lbs. Braking power or efficiency seems to have little to do with it because intuitively they would choose disc brakes for climbing aka descending stages and yet they almost universally choose rim brakes for these stages.


Riders in the tour avoid breaking in the downhills at all cost—too much lost energy. Break type is not at the top of the priority list as long as it does the basic job. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

this thread is the cycling equivalent of the Monty Python Argument sketch https://youtu.be/Lvcnx6-0GhA


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> this thread is the cycling equivalent of the Monty Python Argument sketch https://youtu.be/Lvcnx6-0GhA


It most certainly does not!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> I'll wait for you at the bottom Mr Napoleon complex :lol:
> 
> Bike Check: Fairwheel Bikes’ 5.1kg Factor O2 disc brake road bike | road.cc
> 
> ...


LOL that Factor bike is fragile, stuff for a ballerina. Fork legs thinner than chicken legs. Disc are like pretzels. I guarantee you that no pro is gonna ride that thing, self preservation.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Coolhand said:


> this thread is the cycling equivalent of the Monty Python Argument sketch https://youtu.be/Lvcnx6-0GhA


and what's your favorite apple pie when riding disc bike?


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Coolhand said:


> this thread is the cycling equivalent of the Monty Python Argument sketch https://youtu.be/Lvcnx6-0GhA


What this thread shows is people sharing their opinion AND good nature with friendly ribbing as it should be. What I hoped after the trolls cleared out of the way. Nobody taking other's opinions to heart which is as it should be. Disc versus rim is nothing more than personal preference.

Back to the TdF and summary of rim versus disc. To preface, for guys who love to watch professional bike racing, one of the greatest stages...stage 11 in modern history. Remarkable racing and won't say any more than that. Watch it you guys.

Disc versus rim brake summary of big Alps climbing stage 11:
165 riders and 14 teams. 162 bikes were rim and 3 bikes were disc. This just in. Race organizers just reported that of the 3 disc bikes in the race, and this is big, all disc brake bikes were imposters and not disc bikes at all. Closer inspection revealed they were rim brake bikes with 'cardboard discs pasted on and painted silver' to look like a disc brake bike to spectators. No question this was only done to save face for all the disc lovers after such an elaborate big brand disc rollout to be showcased in the most important bicycle race of the year. Racers were interviewed after the stage and all said the same thing in chorus, nobody wanted to drag those heavy rotors up the mountain. In others words, they all wanted a fighting chance to win the stage and why they all chose rim brakes.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> LOL that Factor bike is fragile, stuff for a ballerina. Fork legs thinner than chicken legs. Disc are like pretzels. I guarantee you that no pro is gonna ride that thing, self preservation.


Yawn

Uh, that Factor frame with chicken leg fork is being ridden in the tour now. It would take the same kind of fragile weight weenie parts to get a rim brake bike down to this imaginary 12lbs minimum of yours. Even with the 15lb min many pros are riding rim brake bikes that are above that. And back in the real world, most consumers are riding around on 16lb+ rim brake bikes. So right back at ya Monty





.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Yawn
> 
> Uh, that Factor frame with chicken leg fork is being ridden in the tour now. It would take the same kind of fragile weight weenie parts to get a rim brake bike down to this imaginary 12lbs minimum of yours. Even with the 15lb min many pros are riding rim brake bikes that are above that. And back in the real world, *most consumers are riding around on 16lb+ rim brake bikes*. So right back at ya Monty
> .


and in bold, which would weigh a lb more with disc which nobody who cares about performance wants to lug around.:wink5:


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> and in bold, which would weigh a lb more with disc which nobody who cares about performance wants to lug around.:wink5:



Why would it even matter to you flatlander? :wink:


.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> Why would it even matter to you flatlander? :wink:
> .


there is a bridge I have to ascend on my ride and don't want to drag those rotors up over it.  Don't carry three water bottles for the same reason, or a boom box to listen to tunes. 
Plus, I hate checking for rotor drag and I have sketchy team car support if I flat and want to keep up with my group ride.
And for further disclosure, the one arm bandit with bionic arm with integrated disc axle tool, he lives a town over and not always available when I ride. :wink5:


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Yawn
> 
> Uh, that Factor frame with chicken leg fork is being ridden in the tour now. It would take the same kind of fragile weight weenie parts to get a rim brake bike down to this imaginary 12lbs minimum of yours. Even with the 15lb min many pros are riding rim brake bikes that are above that. And back in the real world, most consumers are riding around on 16lb+ rim brake bikes. So right back at ya Monty
> 
> ...


hold on Valentino, if most rim brake bikes are 16 lbs, then ya better add another 1.5 lbs for most disc brake bikes too. That's right, do you really think that most disc bikes will be in the equivalent class of Sworks Tarmacs riding on Dura Ace components and Enve 3.4? Most disc bikes (not top end ones) are heavy clunkers. Cherry picking is no bueno, amigo.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> hold on Valentino, if most rim brake bikes are 16 lbs, then ya better add another 1.5 lbs for most disc brake bikes too. That's right, do you really think that most disc bikes will be Tarmacs riding on Dura Ace components and Enve 3.4? Most disc bikes (not top end ones) are heavy clunkers. Cherry picking is no bueno, amigo.



Uh, weren't we talking about high end bikes in the TDF when I proved you wrong amigo? 

And I like how you keep adding extra weight, it's less than a pound 


Is your paycheck coming from winning races that you think you need all these marginal gains, or is it just your fragile ego telling you that you need a light bike to beat your strava time up a hill? :lol:




.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Not all the disc tarmacs fall under uci limit. Bob Jungels comes in at 7.1kg (56). Same bike would be lighter in rim. Though if it were true that all climbing disc bikes were under or at the uci limit other than wheel changes (mainly a concern on cobbles) why aren't there more being used? With "equal" weights due to ballast added to rim variations shouldn't you expect to see more discs due to superior braking and no weight penalty? For riders that don't have to follow uci regulations I would expect the argument for using rims would be greater from the weight savings but the opposite seems to occur. 

Basically pros who don't benefit from weight savings are still choosing "inferior" braking where as the typical rider more often than before is going with discs despite a weight penalty while rarely riding in the terrain/conditions where they make a difference.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

taodemon said:


> Not all the disc tarmacs fall under uci limit. Bob Jungels comes in at 7.1kg (56). Same bike would be lighter in rim. Though if it were true that all climbing disc bikes were under or at the uci limit other than wheel changes (mainly a concern on cobbles) why aren't there more being used? With "equal" weights due to ballast added to rim variations shouldn't you expect to see more discs due to superior braking and no weight penalty? For riders that don't have to follow uci regulations I would expect the argument for using rims would be greater from the weight savings but the opposite seems to occur.
> 
> Basically pros who don't benefit from weight savings are still choosing "inferior" braking where as the typical rider more often than before is going with discs despite a weight penalty while rarely riding in the terrain/conditions where they make a difference.


The point being, disc bikes can be made to the weight limit, so that argument doesn't hold water anymore, doesn't matter if not all of them are that light, not all rim brakes bikes in the tour are that light either. 
As noted many times in the discussion, it is apparently the wheel change and logistics issue more than anything. And also noted many times now, pros are descending on closed roads and don't need to use their brakes as much. The fact that pros can sit tucked down on their top tubes through many corners is evidence that they are not so worried about better braking. A slow wheel change would cost more than any time they could save under braking. 
The typical rider needs better braking more than they need light weight, but many have been convinced by marketing that they need a light bike, in fact it is one of the first things people ask when looking at road bikes. It was this same need by the manufacturers to sell you new stuff that light weight bikes were developed. When I first started riding, the bikes in the Tour weighed 22lbs or more, and they worked just fine. 



.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

taodemon said:


> Not all the disc tarmacs fall under uci limit. Bob Jungels comes in at 7.1kg (56). Same bike would be lighter in rim. Though if it were true that all climbing disc bikes were under or at the uci limit other than wheel changes (mainly a concern on cobbles) why aren't there more being used? With "equal" weights due to ballast added to rim variations shouldn't you expect to see more discs due to superior braking and no weight penalty? For riders that don't have to follow uci regulations I would expect the argument for using rims would be greater from the weight savings but the opposite seems to occur.
> 
> Basically pros who don't benefit from weight savings are still choosing "inferior" braking where as the typical rider more often than before is going with discs despite a weight penalty while rarely riding in the terrain/conditions where they make a difference.


We agree. Weight and UCI minimum is clearly in the calculus. But real reasons aren't being shared with the public. Racers know however and mechanics know as well as their livelihood depends on it. 

Didn't see many discs today among the climbing boys aka GC leaders in the race today. Any discs in the race seemed to be hanging off the back of the peloton trying not to DQ due to excessive time lost. One of the best stages I can recall seeing. What a pleasure to witness...racing at its finest.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

*I envision a time in the not too distant future when rim brakes will no longer be...*

En Vogue, or in accordance with current social fashions.

I can see the off putting looks us Luddites will get when the Disc rider pulls in to the Caffeine refill station and notes our rim brakes.

Forget what is better or unneeded, it is soon to be what is perceived as Cool.


Like Sheep, the herd is moving in that direction.

It won't be terrible, it might be good.

Not many people like change, most resist change, but in the end it will be better.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

The funny thing is that all this talk about brakes can't be stopped, no matter disc or rim.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

That's a good analogy. 

Even with the advent of Di2 we were able to shift to other topics.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Actually, my thread solved the riddle. Disc brakes will be discontinued next model year due to lack of demand at the TdF...where the lemmings go to be brainwashed as to what kind of bike they need to pose on.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I think there will be a snobbish reaction to non disc bike riders eventually.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> I think there will be a snobbish reaction to non disc bike riders eventually.


right now the dynamic is the opposite. All the fast guys I know think disc riders are rubes and pretty apparent that pros aint feelin the love either. But yes, that could change.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

11spd said:


> right now the dynamic is the opposite. All the fast guys I know think disc riders are rubes and pretty apparent that pros aint feelin the love either. But yes, that could change.


It will be caused by a false perception that non-disc likely equals other less noticeable outdated technology.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> It will be caused by a false perception that non-disc likely equals other less noticeable outdated technology.


...or less equal and unnoticeable perception that technology has been undated causing a chain reaction and a wheelie.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Humans aren't wired that way.

We are attracted to shiny objects.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> Humans aren't wired that way.
> 
> We are attracted to shiny objects.


Just isn't so. Matte frames have replaced gloss paint jobs and muddin in trucks seals the deal.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I forgot about the Mutants.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

factory feel said:


> I forgot about the Mutants.


Come on! Look at all the fat guys in full kit on $7K bikes with disc brakes. They are taking over.


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## gloverb103 (Apr 30, 2018)

I put up with having to fart around with touchy calipers to avoid disc rub on my mountain bike because I see the benefit of highly modulated and powerful braking.. I brake 500x more on a mtb ride than I do on my road bike. On the road Im perfectly fine with slightly less stopping power over the hassle


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

11spd said:


> Come on! Look at all the fat guys in full kit on $7K bikes with disc brakes. They are taking over.


Maybe the superior stopping power of disc brakes really is a benefit to fat guys, but the marketing guys just can't find a way to say that politely.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

gloverb103 said:


> I put up with having to fart around with touchy calipers to avoid disc rub on my mountain bike because I see the benefit of highly modulated and powerful braking.. I brake 500x more on a mtb ride than I do on my road bike. On the road Im perfectly fine with slightly less stopping power over the hassle


^^^ +1


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

velodog said:


> Maybe the superior stopping power of disc brakes really is a benefit to fat guys, but the marketing guys just can't find a way to say that politely.


And some I suppose like the security...false or otherwise of strong brakes. I am more concerned about going faster.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

One thing no has mentioned ( I don’t think) is the nature of the weight. Rotors are rotating weight, and I’m guessing at that elite level the impact on climbing might be a consideration, even if a mental one. On the other hand rims made for disc brakes are a wee bit lighter than rims for rim brakes. Point: not all grams are equal. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes might feel heavier especially climbing on a stage like today’s than a 15 lb bike w rim brakes. Thoughts?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

gloverb103 said:


> I brake 500x more on a mtb ride than I do on my road bike.


well said.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Just isn't so. Matte frames have replaced gloss paint jobs and muddin in trucks seals the deal.


Around here in central Virginia big trucks are kept shiny and never taken off-road. Gravel is also to dusty and requires an emergency cleaning + tire shine.



gloverb103 said:


> I put up with having to fart around with touchy calipers to avoid disc rub on my mountain bike because I see the benefit of highly modulated and powerful braking.. I brake 500x more on a mtb ride than I do on my road bike. On the road Im perfectly fine with slightly less stopping power over the hassle


If disc brakes are a hassle you're doing it wrong.... or have Sram brakes.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

MattMay said:


> One thing no has mentioned ( I don’t think) is the nature of the weight. Rotors are rotating weight, and I’m guessing at that elite level the impact on climbing might be a consideration, even if a mental one. On the other hand rims made for disc brakes are a wee bit lighter than rims for rim brakes. Point: not all grams are equal. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes might feel heavier especially climbing on a stage like today’s than a 15 lb bike w rim brakes. Thoughts?


"A lighter rim means the rotating mass of the wheel is reduced, allowing it to spin up quicker in acceleration, and will also be noticed when going uphill. Yes, there is a weight gain as a rotor is fitted, but it is at the hub and is centralised so the effect is reduced,” he said." Article is from 2016 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/cycling-weekly/bikes-disc-brakes-faster-219255 

Disc wheels will climb faster assuming the rim is optimized for it regardless of what the notorious luddites of the TdF choose to ride. The above link does say there is a 1-5 watt loss in aero efficiency with disc but that is on a bike and wheel set not optimized to use disc brakes. Cannondale's data for the new SystemSix suggests it's the most aerodynamic road bike made to date because it uses disc brakes. Obviously the bike was designed to be optimized for use with discs rather than some disc brakes being slapped on to an existing aero bike like other manufactures have done.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MattMay said:


> One thing no has mentioned ( I don’t think) is the nature of the weight. Rotors are rotating weight, and I’m guessing at that elite level the impact on climbing might be a consideration, even if a mental one. On the other hand rims made for disc brakes are a wee bit lighter than rims for rim brakes. Point: not all grams are equal. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes might feel heavier especially climbing on a stage like today’s than a 15 lb bike w rim brakes. Thoughts?


HED Belgium Plus clincher rim and disc rim are exactly the same weight: 465g. So why does HED choose to make them the same weight? In theory, one could conceivably remove some material from the brake track of a disc rim, and thus making the rim a tad lighter. However, in practice, the "brake track" still needs to be robust on disc rim so that it can take a hit from a pothole at say 30 mph. Now if road tires were voluminous as MTB tires, then the brake track can be made lighter due to the protection of the voluminous tire. But road tires are small, and higher pressure, so the brake track still need to be robust on disc rim


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

factory feel said:


> I can see the off putting looks us Luddites will get when the Disc rider pulls in to the Caffeine refill station and notes our rim brakes.


It would be like present day reaction of seeing a bike with these?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

bvber said:


> It would be like present day reaction of seeing a bike with these?
> View attachment 323158
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, like prejudging the rider by thinking “he can’t be very good if his bicycle has friction shifters, or he must be slow if he doesn’t have the need for disc brakes”!


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> "A lighter rim means the rotating mass of the wheel is reduced, allowing it to spin up quicker in acceleration, and will also be noticed when going uphill. Yes, there is a weight gain as a rotor is fitted, but it is at the hub and is centralised so the effect is reduced,” he said." Article is from 2016 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/cycling-weekly/bikes-disc-brakes-faster-219255
> 
> Disc wheels will climb faster assuming the rim is optimized for it regardless of what the notorious luddites of the TdF choose to ride. The above link does say there is a 1-5 watt loss in aero efficiency with disc but that is on a bike and wheel set not optimized to use disc brakes. Cannondale's data for the new SystemSix suggests it's the most aerodynamic road bike made to date because it uses disc brakes. Obviously the bike was designed to be optimized for use with discs rather than some disc brakes being slapped on to an existing aero bike like other manufactures have done.


Disc wheels don't go up the mountain without a disc attached unless you don't want to stop going down. 

To Matt's question, no, moment of inertia doesn't matter hardly at all with disc wheels plus rotors because as Dave points out mass concentration is close to the axle and moment of inertia and angular momentum are a function of radius from the axle center. But static weight is still static weight. Carrying more weight up the mountain slows you down. Not so much on the flat other than burst accelerations and there are many in the peloton, but again, angular momentum of disc brake difference is miniscule because mass concentration of rotors is close to axle centerline.

You are the luddite Dave for not seeing the forest through the trees, not the pros that race bikes for a living. You remind me of the 18 handicap golfer telling the pro on the range that his stance is too closed.

Reason that pros choose rim over disc are:

- slight aero penalty of discs you reference...again slight
- dragging more weight up the hill if the bike can't be built to the UCI limit and many bikes in the peloton can't. 
- wheel changes are more problematic in terms of time expediency. Time loss = lost race.
- potential for rotor drag based upon replacement wheel/rotor/hub tolerances. Disc pads run closer to the rotor than rim brake pads run to the rim making replacement wheel tolerances more sensitive. If any rub due to ill fitting rim brake wheel, the caliper cam can be opened fractionally to alleviate rubbing "while the rider is racing the bike".

Team managers, pros that race for a living and the mechanics that work on the bikes all know the score and why a deliberate decision is made to race rim brakes in the biggest race of the year. Its ok you don't get it. Much escapes the public who don't compete at the highest level. And btw, as often lamented, disc brakes maybe best for you Dave, a guy who doesn't race for his livelihood because you are best served by the security of improved braking. The pros have to look at the complete menu of tradeoffs which they do and why rim brakes outnumber disc by 5:1 in the peloton and will see it again today climbing the steepest part of the Alps. Adherence to old tradition aka your false assertion of best riders in the world being luddites couldn't be farther from the truth. This is your reason for you not seeing the complete picture. Every pro in the peloton has tested disc brakes extensively. Many pros like Sagan for example ride both and even have a custom bike built with rim brakes for a particular Classics race. All the top manufacturers sell both types. The purpose of this thread is to illustrate that pros choose rim over disc 'in spite of big brand bike makers', the guys who write the checks for the pro, big brands wanting pros on disc brakes so they can derive a higher profit by selling higher zoot bikes when most know after a certain point, the bike has little to do with speed. That is why you see bike shops flooded with disc brake bikes in spite of the best riders in the world preferring rim because in aggregate pros are faster on rim brakes 'if you factor in all the logistics' for reasons mentioned. Your simplistic luddite assertion is bogus.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Disc wheels don't go up the mountain without a disc attached unless you don't want to stop going down.
> 
> To Matt's question, no, moment of inertia doesn't matter hardly at all with disc wheels plus rotors because as Dave points out mass concentration is close to the axle and moment of inertia and angular momentum are a function of radius from the axle center. But static weight is still static weight. Carrying more weight up the mountain slows you down. Not so much on the flat other than burst accelerations and there are many in the peloton, but again, angular momentum of disc brake difference is miniscule because mass concentration of rotors is close to axle centerline.
> 
> ...


I just like to stir the pot a little.

I’m pretty certain all of the climbing bikes you’ll see in the TdF this year with or without disc will be at the minumim weight (unless they opt for aero wheels). There are multiple manufactures making sub 11lbs rim brake road bikes right now. If any team is not at the minumim weight that is an epic fail for the manufacture. Excluding aero bikes of course. So no, pros on a disc climbing bike will not be carrying a weight penalty. 

There could definitely be a penalty in terminal volocity on the way down with discs which could be worth a whole lot of time if you’re solo off the front. I’d never deny that on a bike not optimized for disc brakes could lose a few mph at terminal volocity. Cannondale’s SystemSix seems to suggest you need wide deep section rims to make discs aero which would be poor for climbing grades steeper than 6%. FWIW most pro’s don’t descend in the most aerodynamic position which would be worth more than a few mph. Also that terminal volocity will only matter if you’re completely solo with no one to draft. If you have someone within 30ft their draft will pull you straight in.

You’re reasoning that pro’s will always choose the best equipment simply doesn’t hold water. I’ve mentioned before they historically resist new bike tech. Almost every single advancement has been met with resistance usually for at least a few years. I definitely agree with you that their needs are different from ours. At the moment they don’t have anything to gain by using disc brakes. I believe the biggest limiting factor right now is simply the lack of disc wheels availible for a wheel change. For practicality it needs to be all of one or the other and there are still kinks to work out with disc brakes as you’ve mentioned with disc rub.

Disc wheel changes aren’t slower by the way. There is no fiddling around with tension on a quick release and it only takes a second the unthread/thread the axle. A guide built into the brake caliper would make a wheel change nearly fool proof with disc brakes. On the fly adjustability and disc rub are definitely problems that need a solution before it’s a viable option in racing.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Fajita Dave said:


> I just like to stir the pot a little.
> 
> Disc wheel changes aren’t slower by the way. There is no fiddling around with tension on a quick release and it only takes a second the unthread/thread the axle.


Tullio Campagnolo must be rolling over in his grave about now.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

mfdemicco said:


> Tullio Campagnolo must be rolling over in his grave about now.


Quick release is only quick without lawer tabs and being set perfectly for the bike it’s going on. Which is only going to happen if it’s from the bike they just came off of.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Quick release is only quick without lawer tabs and being set perfectly for the bike it’s going on. Which is only going to happen if it’s from the bike they just came off of.


Well then Dave, since disc brakes stop better than rim and the top 50 riders to just finish stage 12 are all on rim brake bikes, and disc wheel changes aren't slower according to you, then it must be 'fairy dust' why all teams are opting for rim.

Denial makes the world go around like the flat earth society alive and well on facebook.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Fajita Dave said:


> Quick release is only quick without lawer tabs and being set perfectly for the bike it’s going on. Which is only going to happen if it’s from the bike they just came off of.


Do the pros have lawyer tabs on their forks? 

I was told by Mavic neutral support that the teams with disc are doing complete bike changes rather than wheel changes. That's got to be slower especially if there's no team car nearby. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

mfdemicco said:


> Do the pros have lawyer tabs on their forks?
> 
> *I was told by Mavic neutral support that the teams with disc are doing complete bike changes rather than wheel changes. That's got to be slower especially if there's no team car nearby.
> *
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Pretty sure that is the reason why Sagan had Specialized make him a rim brake bike for the Roubaix and related stages. Speed of wheel changes versus car support and supply of full replacement bike.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Obviously I’m not a pro team mechanic and wheel change speed isn’t important for me. With that being said I can remove and install the wheels on our disc road bike just as fast as on the rim brake bike. I’ve seen plenty of very slow wheel changes because of quick release skewers needing adjustment which doesn’t even come into play with TA. A quick spin and making it snug is all it takes. The axle type is not slowing down wheel changes.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> Actually, my thread solved the riddle. Disc brakes will be discontinued next model year due to lack of demand at the TdF...where the lemmings go to be brainwashed as to what kind of bike they need to pose on.



A lot of irony considering you're the lemming arguing that we should look to what the pros at the TDF are riding as evidence of what consumers should ride. You're probably the guy who buys the titanium hammer for the 2 times a year you would use it because you saw a house builder use it 



> And btw, as often lamented, disc brakes maybe best for you Dave, a guy who doesn't race for his livelihood because you are best served by the security of improved braking.


That would include you



11spd said:


> Much escapes the public who don't compete at the highest level.


Much escapes the fool who looks to the pros as evidence of what to ride. 



> The purpose of this thread is to illustrate that pros choose rim over disc 'in spite of big brand bike makers', the guys who write the checks for the pro, big brands wanting pros on disc brakes so they can derive a higher profit by selling higher zoot bikes when most know after a certain point, the bike has little to do with speed.


Well then you should be equally as outraged at aero bikes and pretty much every other innovation that has come along. These pros you put on a pedestal did just fine when bikes weighed 25+lbs and had down tube friction shifters and toe clips too. 

How about you start a thread: "Where are all the steel bikes in the TDF?"


And I would say for you or me (or anyone else), at no point does the bike have anything to do with speed, nor does it even matter since you're not paying your bills by riding. 





11spd said:


> Well then Dave, since disc brakes stop better than rim and the top 50 riders to just finish stage 12 are all on rim brake bikes, and disc wheel changes aren't slower according to you, then it must be 'fairy dust' why all teams are opting for rim.
> 
> Denial makes the world go around like the flat earth society alive and well on facebook.


Seems you're the one in denial (or just dense), I think it's been four times in this thread alone I've told you that pros have closed roads and don't need to use the brakes much. Did you even watch, they were going through corners tucked down on their down tubes the other day? Of course they don't care as much about braking. Their needs have very little relevance to consumers


Your entire premise in this thread is nonsense, pros are not the end all be all of bike knowledge. Bikes aren't that complicated and racing doesn't necessarily make you know bikes any better than someone that has been riding recreationally (sometimes longer than many of the pros have even been alive). In fact, I'm sure many don't even know how to wrench on their own bike or even pay that much attention to equipment beyond what they need to get their job done.
Similarly, I am a commercial photographer, I am constantly being asked by people what cameras they should buy and the fact is I usually have no idea. My needs are much different than theirs and I don't typically use or research consumer cameras to know what would be best for them. 





11spd said:


> And some I suppose like the security...false or otherwise of strong brakes. I am more concerned about going faster.


Being the old man flatlander that you are, you don't hold much credibility when it comes to knowing about going fast or needing to slow down on descents :lol:


.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Fajita Dave said:


> Obviously I’m not a pro team mechanic and wheel change speed isn’t important for me. With that being said I can remove and install the wheels on our disc road bike just as fast as on the rim brake bike. I’ve seen plenty of very slow wheel changes because of quick release skewers needing adjustment which doesn’t even come into play with TA. A quick spin and making it snug is all it takes. The axle type is not slowing down wheel changes.



Yup! Front wheel is so much faster and easier. And Bikes are required by the UCI to have the lawyer tabs.
The back wheel on disc is _slightly_ trickier though as you have to align both the disc and cassette when inserting. The issue of course is neutral support or wheels that are not set for the bike they are going into. 


.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Sorry to report...did you guys see the stage today? Both MoPho and Dave were dropped off the back of the peloton today and DQ'ed from the race due to excessive time. There were no disc brake bikes in the front of the race today. All disc riders fell off the back...too much weight to carry up the Alps and also reports of pad drag. They also lost time descending due to increase in aero drag which robbed their speed down the mountain. When interviewed after the stage, all the disc brake racers said they same thing, the whole experience was a total drag and they regret selling out to the big brands to shill those heavy and draggy brakes just so they could make higher profit.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Sorry to report...did you guys see the stage today? Both MoPho and Dave were dropped off the back of the peloton today and DQ'ed from the race due to excessive time. There were no disc brake bikes in the front of the race today. All disc riders fell off the back...too much weight to carry up the Alps and also reports of pad drag. They also lost time descending due to increase in aero drag which robbed their speed down the mountain. When interviewed after the stage, all the disc brake racers said they same thing, the whole experience was a total drag and they regret selling out to the big brands to shill those heavy and draggy brakes just so they could make higher profit.


You keep saying disc brakes on road bikes are just a money grab by manufactures. Meanwhile I can buy a $4,000 mountain bike with a carbon frame strong enough to handle large rocks bashing into the down tube, excellent long travel suspension, sophisticated rear suspension designs and even hydraulic disc brakes. So when you buy a $4,000 rim brake road bike with extremely basic componenty in comparison where exactly is all of that money going?



MoPho said:


> Yup! Front wheel is so much faster and easier. And Bikes are required by the UCI to have the lawyer tabs.
> The back wheel on disc is _slightly_ trickier though as you have to align both the disc and cassette when inserting. The issue of course is neutral support or wheels that are not set for the bike they are going into. Possibly suprior design that remains largly unchanged in the past 100 years? Which is a testimate to just how effecient these amazing machines are.
> 
> 
> .


I found the rear wheel to be easier with TA. On my rim bikes the end of the QR gets hung up at the derailleur hanger which isn’t an issue with TA. Sometimes the disc doesn’t slot straight in to the caliper but manufactures can easily design a guide into the caliper.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Fajita Dave said:


> You keep saying disc brakes on road bikes are just a money grab by manufactures. Meanwhile I can buy a $4,000 mountain bike with a carbon frame strong enough to handle large rocks bashing into the down tube, excellent long travel suspension, sophisticated rear suspension designs and even hydraulic disc brakes. So when you buy a $4,000 rim brake road bike with extremely basic componenty in comparison where exactly is all of that money going?



Come on Dave, don't you know all that engineering goes into creating light weight carbon fiber frames made from 100% carbon so they can shill to guys like 11sp, then he can tell everyone on the internet how the half pound he saved made him .00025mph faster over his 15ft 1.5% grade climb on the MUT that takes him to Starbucks.





> I found the rear wheel to be easier with TA. On my rim bikes the end of the QR gets hung up at the derailleur hanger which isn’t an issue with TA. Sometimes the disc doesn’t slot straight in to the caliper but manufactures can easily design a guide into the caliper.



That's true, plus there is very little if any alignment issues, many a time I've gone down the road after changing a flat with QR only to have the chain jumping under load because the wheel wasn't quite seated all the way, so would have to stop and fix it. And then there was the added bonus that if you bumped the brake caliper, you would have to realign that too. The Sram red on my old bike was so sensitive, the slightest touch would knock it out and moving it by hand wouldn't fix it, so I had to carry a brake tool in my pocket. And not to mention axle creaking with QR don't tighten it enough, that would drive me crazy. Don't have these issues with TA
But what I meant is it sometimes take a little longer to align disc into the caliper while lining up the chain at the same time, especially if you are older like 11sp when your hand/eye coordination starts deteriorating. The extra second or two could cause him to be 8th or 9th in line at Starbucks instead of 7th, good thing he has neutral support to follow him around his Orlando retirement community :thumbsup:


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> You keep saying disc brakes on road bikes are just a money grab by manufactures. Meanwhile I can buy a $4,000 mountain bike with a carbon frame strong enough to handle large rocks bashing into the down tube, excellent long travel suspension, sophisticated rear suspension designs and even hydraulic disc brakes. So when you buy a $4,000 rim brake road bike with extremely basic componenty in comparison where exactly is all of that money going?
> 
> 
> 
> I found the rear wheel to be easier with TA. On my rim bikes the end of the QR gets hung up at the derailleur hanger which isn’t an issue with TA. Sometimes the disc doesn’t slot straight in to the caliper but manufactures can easily design a guide into the caliper.


Dave, yes disc brakes are a money grab by big bike brands appealing to the psyche of guys like MoPho who didn't give up their teddy bear and blanket until mid teens who need the security of big brakes to slow them down going down their driveway.

Some guys just need more security because they are afraid of being out on the road. Real men want to ride faster. What brakes?


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

MoPho said:


> Yup! Front wheel is so much faster and easier. And Bikes are required by the UCI to have the lawyer tabs.
> The back wheel on disc is _slightly_ trickier though as you have to align both the disc and cassette when inserting. The issue of course is neutral support or wheels that are not set for the bike they are going into.
> 
> 
> .


I don't agree because the hub has to be lined up with the holes on the frame and fork in order to insert the thru axle. With quick release, the axle ends fit into the dropouts so there is less monkeying around to align things. Also, the quick release is captured by the wheel but the thru axle is separate and could get lost in the weeds aside the road when in a hurry. Finally thru axles are not necessarily interchangeable so don't lose the ones that came with the bike. If you're not in a hurry this is no big deal, but in a race where seconds matter, I have a hard time believing that thru axle is faster than quick release in wheel changes. 

This argument is moot because rim brake bikes do not come with thru axles and the added complexity of getting the rotor in the caliper will make wheel changes take longer for disc brake bikes on average.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> I don't agree because the hub has to be lined up with the holes on the frame and fork in order to insert the thru axle. With quick release, the axle ends fit into the dropouts so there is less monkeying around to align things. Also, the quick release is captured by the wheel but the thru axle is separate and could get lost in the weeds aside the road when in a hurry. Finally thru axles are not necessarily interchangeable so don't lose the ones that came with the bike. If you're not in a hurry this is no big deal, but in a race where seconds matter, I have a hard time believing that thru axle is faster than quick release in wheel changes.
> 
> This argument is moot because rim brake bikes do not come with thru axles and the added complexity of getting the rotor in the caliper will make wheel changes take longer for disc brake bikes on average.


Have you ever used thru axle? Frames are slotted for the hub, the holes line up every time, no such monkeying around. 
Sure, I suppose you could lose the thru axle if you're the type who has no impulse control and just throws the axles off into the bushes after taking it out, but that could happen with a QR too, except you throw the whole wheel into the bushes :lol:





.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

MoPho said:


> Have you ever used thru axle? Frames are slotted for the hub, the holes line up every time, no such monkeying around.
> Sure, I suppose you could lose the thru axle if you're the type who has no impulse control and just throws the axles off into the bushes after taking it out, but that could happen with a QR too, except you throw the whole wheel into the bushes :lol:
> 
> 
> ...


Not according to this video https://youtu.be/2ssBzGNWO20 so the fit is not universal. On my mountain bike the rear is that way but on the fork the hub has to be aligned.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> Not according to this video https://youtu.be/2ssBzGNWO20 so the fit is not universal. On my mountain bike the rear is that way but on the fork the hub has to be aligned.



 Video shows the slots for lining up the wheel


.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

MoPho said:


> Video shows the slots for lining up the wheel.


Yes, you're right. This is a better video anyway https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w6uqN_Pips


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

mfdemicco said:


> I don't agree because the hub has to be lined up with the holes on the frame and fork in order to insert the thru axle. With quick release, the axle ends fit into the dropouts so there is less monkeying around to align things. Also, the quick release is captured by the wheel but the thru axle is separate and could get lost in the weeds aside the road when in a hurry. Finally thru axles are not necessarily interchangeable so don't lose the ones that came with the bike. If you're not in a hurry this is no big deal, but in a race where seconds matter, I have a hard time believing that thru axle is faster than quick release in wheel changes.
> 
> This argument is moot because rim brake bikes do not come with thru axles and the added complexity of getting the rotor in the caliper will make wheel changes take longer for disc brake bikes on average.


I can definitely see a mechanic doing something dumb like throwing the axle while in a hurry. As for the rest I'm hopeful that if discs do take over the tour manufactures can agree on making a standard size and thread. My TA bikes the hub slots in perfectly with no alignment necessary. Getting the disc aligned can be an issue but there are solutions to that.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Dave, yes disc brakes are a money grab by big bike brands appealing to the psyche of guys like MoPho who didn't give up their teddy bear and blanket until mid teens who need the security of big brakes to slow them down going down their driveway.
> 
> Some guys just need more security because they are afraid of being out on the road. Real men want to ride faster. What brakes?


Manufactures aren't making a higher profit margin on disc brakes. They are simply a more expensive component set than rim brakes. Which I agree has a certain degree of suck, however, braking performance is better and in my experience they require less cleaning and upkeep. A rim brake caliper is a beautifully simple piece of equipment that doesn't require ceramic pistons, precision machined calipers with a tiny but reliable master cylinder built into the hoods along with organic brake pads and a separate brake rotor. Rim brake calipers have been around a long time now and they're simply cheaper to manufacture. Besides all of that if an extra $300 is an outrage for you to spend on a $2k+ bicycle than you probably shouldn't be doing any major road cycling in the first place.

I have no doubt disc brakes are helping sell bikes in road cycling but only because many riders do see a practical reason to own them. Biopace chainwheels had all sorts of claims about performance gain but they sucked so people didn't buy them. Disc brakes don't suck regardless of how much you're in denial of that reality. Manufactures are supplying us with them because they see the appeal for the masses.

At the moment disc brakes are a disadvantage in pro cycling purely due to the lack of disc wheel replacements on support vehicles and severe lack of development. If speed is the key in wheel changes the wheels need to be designed for the cassette and disc to stay in place in the frame while the axle/wheel is removed and new wheel installed. This solves the issue of aligning a brake disc and cassette altogether with wheel changes. It's common place with endurance motorcycle racing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha_I8ZzqgZU It doesn't take any complicated mechanisms to achieve this either. Bike manufactures, the pro peloton, and people like you are simply to caught up in tradition to push for innovation.

Edit: Forgot to mention that anyone buying a modern road bike seems to be getting screwed by the prices with or without discs. I look at my mountain bike and see a marvel of engineering with the rear suspension having multiple pivot points that control chain stretch and provide just the right amount of anti-sag while climbing to keep the rear end high but eliminate bobbing up and down. Even the rider weight on the pedals is engineered to keep the suspension supported on downhill hits via pedal kickback built into the design. Along with the kashima coated suspension with tiny externally adjustable valving inside the damping chamber to provide an incredibly smooth and stable ride over terrain that once was only accessible on foot. Last but not least the sweet disc brakes that have never failed me in any conditions at any speed. Discs that I haven't cleaned the rotors on in 1,400 miles and counting. Meanwhile my road bike was nearly the same price, it has a frame bonded to be one single piece, wheels, rim brakes and shifters. You should have been complaining about road bike prices a very, very long time ago before they came equipped with disc brakes.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> Yes, you're right. This is a better video anyway https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w6uqN_Pips



Still not sure what the video proves that hasn't been said. 
I can't see how you could lose the thru-axle short of doing something really dumb. You either stick it back in the frame or set it down next to the frame while changing the tire, not hard. And you're not immune from losing the end cap and spring on a quick release axle if you loosen it too much trying to clear the lawyer tabs, I've had that happen and it bounced across the garage floor and I had to go digging for it. That would leave you stranded too and seems to me a more likely scenario.
Also in his wheel change, he never released/reset the brake which would have added some more time (of course some thinner tires will clear without opening the brake) and he didn't ride the bike after, possible the wheel wasn't seated properly which would have cost even more time. Thru axle eliminates that issue. 
Of course the speed of a wheel change is a completely moot point unless you are a pro racer 


.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> Manufactures aren't making a higher profit margin on disc brakes. They are simply a more expensive component set than rim brakes. Which I agree has a certain degree of suck, however, braking performance is better and in my experience they require less cleaning and upkeep. A rim brake caliper is a beautifully simple piece of equipment that doesn't require ceramic pistons, precision machined calipers with a tiny but reliable master cylinder built into the hoods along with organic brake pads and a separate brake rotor. Rim brake calipers have been around a long time now and they're simply cheaper to manufacture. Besides all of that if an extra $300 is an outrage for you to spend on a $2k+ bicycle than you probably shouldn't be doing any major road cycling in the first place.
> 
> I have no doubt disc brakes are helping sell bikes in road cycling but only because many riders do see a practical reason to own them. Biopace chainwheels had all sorts of claims about performance gain but they sucked so people didn't buy them. Disc brakes don't suck regardless of how much you're in denial of that reality. Manufactures are supplying us with them because they see the appeal for the masses.
> 
> ...


Dave,

You should really stop with your false assertions. Big bike brands make 'much more profit' with disc brake bikes...why they are flooding the bike shop floor, plus they are a 'hook' to sell a new road bike because they are different and advertised to be 'better'. You simply drink the koolaid and so their marketing has worked on you. It is like advertising a Pressed fit BB as a lighter and more efficient translation of power from the cranks to the rear wheel even though most know a Pressed fit BB to be more detriment than advantage.

Your other comment about cost influencing my decision is ridiculous. I can afford a garage full of high end carbon bikes. There is a reason I have the money I have. I don't waste it. FWIW I paid $2K just for my frameset on my main roadbike. Some may believe that is a waste of money as well. I don't have 4 piston Brembo brakes on my SUV because I don't need them either. They are out there. I could put bigger brakes on my car that I don't race. But a waste of money.

Look, if you want greater security of disc brakes that is fine. I agree they stop fractionally better. I virtually never do a panic stop on my bike or rarely and can lock the wheels up and I don't suffer the modulation error some have with rim brakes because I am a skilled bike rider. For more ham fisted guys who are a bit more phobic about riding their bike in traffic, then maybe the security of disc brakes will appeal them...or guys that ride in the rain all the time. 

Point is, disc just like in the peloton should be the vast exception and not the rule on a road bike. I don't want a heavier and more fiddly brake system on my bike. I want simple and lower cost that stops just fine which is what latest rim brake technology delivers and pros that race bikes for their livelihood agree as both choices are readily available and in fact big bike brands promote disc over rim.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> Dave,
> 
> You should really stop with your false assertions. Big bike brands make 'much more profit' with disc brake bikes...why they are flooding the bike shop floor, plus they are a 'hook' to sell a new road bike because they are different and advertised to be 'better'. You simply drink the koolaid and so their marketing has worked on you. It is like advertising a Pressed fit BB as a lighter and more efficient translation of power from the cranks to the rear wheel even though most know a Pressed fit BB to be more detriment than advantage.
> 
> ...



You should really stop with your false assertions. Big bike brands make 'much more profit' with* carbon fiber* bikes...why they are flooding the bike shop floor, plus they are a 'hook' to sell a new road bike because they are different and advertised to be 'better' and "lighter", "more aero". You simply drink the koolaid and so their marketing has worked on you.

So you don't race, why do you need a $2k frameset? Oh right, you drank the Kool-aid 
You don't need to climb why do you need a light bike? Kool-aid
Your main bike? Why do you need more than one? Kool-aid
You keep asserting you pick what to ride based on what the pros ride, Kool - aid

Seems you're a big sucker for the marketing. Pot to kettle

And you don't need better brakes because you don't ride in a way that taxes them, your opinions about brakes are worthless



.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MoPho said:


> You should really stop with your false assertions. Big bike brands make 'much more profit' with* carbon fiber* bikes...why they are flooding the bike shop floor, plus they are a 'hook' to sell a new road bike because they are different and advertised to be 'better' and "lighter", "more aero". You simply drink the koolaid and so their marketing has worked on you.
> 
> So you don't race, why do you need a $2k frameset? Oh right, you drank the Kool-aid
> You don't need to climb why do you need a light bike? Kool-aid
> ...


MoPho,
Nobody rides rim brakes in a way that they need disc brakes is the point...lol.
Btw, you said you are a photographer I believe. Makes sense you are a technical illiterate. They are the biggest suckers for tech they don't need. Photographers, botanists and cooks..lol...maybe opera singers and bird watchers are in there as well with honorable mention to envelope stuffers, page turners, water boys and cashiers at Walmart. 

I develop tech. Its my job to determine fact from fiction and why I am a bicycle savant and you aren't.

But there is a much deeper issue at play with your posts that is plaguing the forum. Why is it the period of your last sentence is always so many lines below the end of your last sentence?

Not saying this is as peculiar as your steadfast adherence to disc brakes that real cyclists don't want on the road but still peculiar.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

11spd said:


> Dave,
> 
> You should really stop with your false assertions. Big bike brands make 'much more profit' with disc brake bikes...why they are flooding the bike shop floor, plus they are a 'hook' to sell a new road bike because they are different and advertised to be 'better'. You simply drink the koolaid and so their marketing has worked on you. It is like advertising a Pressed fit BB as a lighter and more efficient translawasn'' of power from the cranks to the rear wheel even though most know a Pressed fit BB to be more detriment than advantage.
> 
> ...


As already explained a simple stamped aluminum rim brake caliper is much cheaper than a disc system. Naturally the price of the equipment goes up in the exact same way a carbon frame is more expensive than aluminum. That is reality, if you think otherwise you're delusional.

According to your logic if you're bike has any of the following you drank the Kool Aid of these greedy bicycle manufactures.
Carbon frame
Titanium frame
Aluminum frame
Dual pivot caliper rim brakes
Disc brakes
Electronic shifting
Anything to improve aerodynamics
Anything that saves a marginal amount of weight
Clip in pedals
Modern shifters
8,9,10,11,12 speed cassettes
Compact cranks
Multiple gears of any kind
Any BB standard besides internal threaded
Tires narrower than 25c (or even 28)
A frame, seat post or bars with flex engineered into it

None of my assertions have been false. Disc brakes have better braking performance and require less maintenance which makes them a better piece of equipment on a bicycle. The 14oz weight penalty has absolutely no effect on our riding (especially yours on flat land) and the 1-4 watts of aero is the difference between your chain 100 miles after lubrication and having fresh lube on it. There is zero real world detriment in performance by using disc brakes. You only gain braking performance and drop the need of replacing rims because of a worn out brake track.

You're argument that only unskilled riders need the security of disc brakes is nothing short of trolling. When braking performance is not absolute in it's predictability it is impossible to perform an optimal stop for emergencies regardless of skill level. For you that would be someone turning left across your lane, for me it's deer in a national park. I have 21 years of motocross racing experience since the age of 9 along with 40,000 miles of commuting and track time on a sport bike. I've spent hours of practice dedicated just for braking and even continue to practice now in road cycling. Directly comparing the new R8000 Ultegra group sets the disc brakes are far superior at every aspect of braking performance. Obviously this is at the extreme end of braking and emergency stops don't happen often. Speed greatly changes the necessity of such good braking as well so needs for this will vary greatly from person to person. 

I'll state the fact again there is no real world loss in performance using disc brakes on a road bike but you gain better braking performance. It isn't a quantum leap in bicycle technology, it's just another small improvement added onto all of the other small improvements over the past few decades. Which means disc brakes should be the rule in road cycling and not the exception. Nothing to lose, marginal gains.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

(TdF stage 13 semi spoiler alert)

Today’s stage winner attributed his photo finish sprint win solely to the fact that his bike had disc brakes. 







JK 🤣


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

I am still waiting on your thread, "Where are all the Titanium and Steel bikes in the TDF?"
Are you going to tell the people that buy alloy bikes that they are lemmings and should keep away because Pros don't use them?


As luck would have it, I rode with a retired pro today (won a stage of the Giro and the green jersey in the TDF, among other achievements) and the topic of disc brakes came up, he both confirmed and contradicted my position. He confirmed that they don't really use the brakes much descending because of the closed roads and that consumers shouldn't entirely be looking to what pros need. He also said that if anything, disc brakes offer too much braking, saying that almost every crash he has been in he was hit from behind and that the crashes happen because someone hits the brakes and the riders behind can't react in time. More braking performance would increase that risk. He said that for their purposes rim brakes are even too powerful ( so go ahead 11sp, put some crappy brakes on your bike, pros don't even need no stinkin' brakes). 
The *main* reason they are not adapting so quick, is they are still afraid of getting cut by the rotor. 
And since Pros are the experts that 11sp lives his life by, he should also make sure he is on tubs at all times because he noted that pros only use tubulars so that when the tire blows out from the rim brake heat generated, they can still ride for a bit so they are not dropped that much while they wait for the team car to arrive, but you already knew that and I am sure you wouldn't be caught dead on clinchers, right? 




Oh, and the extra period is because this forum crowds the text too close to the bottom and it bothers me


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Some teams are riding them and some teams aren't. There are probably lots of different reasons why those decisions were made. The end. 

https://road.cc/content/feature/244...e-france-whos-riding-what-worlds-biggest-race

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/g22088960/new-bikes-gear-2018-tour-de-france/


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Rashadabd said:


> Some teams are riding them and some teams aren't. There are probably lots of different reasons why those decisions were made. The end.
> 
> https://road.cc/content/feature/244...e-france-whos-riding-what-worlds-biggest-race
> 
> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/g22088960/new-bikes-gear-2018-tour-de-france/


Vast majority of teams in the TdF are on rim. At least 5:1 and there are many reasons they choose rim over disc.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

11spd said:


> Vast majority of teams in the TdF are on rim. At least 5:1 and there are many reasons they choose rim over disc.


I guess you didn’t read what I wrote. I never argued against that ratio. I just meant what I said. Some are riding disc, some are not and there are probably lots of things that went into those decisions either way. Why are you such a weirdo about this topic. It’s like arguing about disc brakes turns you on or something or like you have nothing else going on in life. So strange.....


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

One disappears for several weeks to hit the N.A. racing circuit, come back home to Yurrip to relax, get fat again, and check out the forum (among other things), and this (this thread) is what has been happening? Really? 

I mean, in the PO section you expect some sort of confrontational looney-bin sticks & stones behavior, but here......in the General section......and no less than 7 pages of sheer "_mine is bigger than yours_"-ness?


Good heavens, the 'general' forum has swirled down the same drain of the human condition that a certain U.S. President is a shining example of. And Lombard is involved in this too? Man, this is an alternate reality...lol............


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

Somewhat on point: 2 of the top 4 finishers in the Tour today were on disc brake bikes, including a certain aforementioned world champion.










Just sayin.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Sagan is not riding a Venge ViAS.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

crit_boy said:


> Sagan is not riding a Venge ViAS.


Thanks, he won a couple of stages on one. What is funny is, Specialized has retooled the Tarmac with aero cues which further blurs the line between the Tarmac and Venge making it hard to tell the bikes apart.. Probably the biggest difference now is 1 gram of drag at 30mph versus 200 grams of weight.:wink5:


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

11spd said:


> Thanks, he won a couple of stages on one. What is funny is, Specialized has retooled the Tarmac with aero cues which further blurs the line between the Tarmac and Venge making it hard to tell the bikes apart.. Probably the biggest difference now is 1 gram of drag at 30mph versus 200 grams of weight.:wink5:


Nope. Sagan has not ridden a Venge ViAS in the 2018 tour. The Instagram photo above is a venge. It is not a tarmac. It is not a venge ViAS.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

crit_boy said:


> Nope. Sagan has not ridden a Venge ViAS in the 2018 tour. The Instagram photo above is a venge. It is not a tarmac. It is not a venge ViAS.


You are correct crit_boy and thanks for the clarification. For 2018, Specialized dropped the VIAS designation when they tweaked the design.

Here are the spec's on this 2018 bike:
https://road.cc/content/tech-news/2...-peter-sagans-specialized-s-works-venge-video

And here is his 2017 VIAS spec's:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...er-sagans-specialized-venge-vias-video-180977

Net result of the redesign is a 460g weight save or just over 1 lb.

Further, Spesh got rid of that hideous gooseneck stem. New Venge as a result looks cleaner.

Thanks again.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

11spd said:


> Further, Spesh got rid of that hideous gooseneck stem.


I wonder if clearance sale is going on...


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

bvber said:


> I wonder if clearance sale is going on...


I think Spesh would be hard pressed to sell them even at a discount. There has been a fair amount of outcry about how ugly that stem is/was and good on Spesh for atoning by redesigning it for the latest Venge which makes the front of the bike much cleaner. Some know many that own the Venge VIAS go off the reservation anyway and opt for a stock stem and route cables very closely but slightly outside the stem which looks pretty clean and no doubt is pretty aero.

Also Spesh has to be credited for averting what some believe to be huge mistake which are integrated stem and handlebars which not only makes a stem change a $500 bill, but consumer loses the ability to 'tune' handlebar angle which is a big deal to guys like me that are fussy about hand position on the hoods and ergonomics.

Lastly a comical note. Handlebar and stem shape and integrated cable routing doesn't just portend to bicycles but motorcycles as well. Below is a rider view of the muscle cruiser I built a few years back as a lark...I am not really a cruiser guy but I always wanted to build a fast and custom cruiser for fun. From a taste standpoint, I am not a fan of over the top custom choppers like OCC fabricates on TV although once in a while they make a more sensible bike without the ridiculous rake and outrageous proportion. And FWIW Paul Jr, who makes some of these crazy looking motorcycles is brilliant designer who succumbs to making outrageous motorcycles even though he is a man of taste. A bit of digression but a plug for Jr. who is a great guy and widely misunderstood by those not close to the hobby.

I dig to this day a very sleek and integrated muscle cruiser with real clean aesthetic. Still appeals to me even though I prefer other genres of motorcycle to ride. To this end, on this bike, I changed the handlebar to be integrated with the stem which are called risers on a motorcycle and note the very clean aesthetic which was the intent. This type of handlebar on a motorcycle is referred to as a drag bar and in first gear, this bike would literally try to rip the arms off your body with its massive torque. This motorcycle really was a work of art in spite of MoPho's ignorant comments.

Lastly, I regret the tone of this thread and have asked Coolhand to delete it. There is no place on a forum such as this where we share same passion for road cycling where low level of discourse should be tolerated. I am sure many if not most agree. I think of other analogies in cycling and only thing that comes to mind is a group ride gone bad which many of us have witnessed at some point. I did in fact the other day where riders started attacking one another which I hadn't seen in quite a while. It was hot that day however. 

A handlebar pic of my departed Vegas as I remember building it ironically related to discussion:


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

BelgianHammer said:


> One disappears for several weeks to hit the N.A. racing circuit, come back home to Yurrip to relax, get fat again, and check out the forum (among other things), and this (this thread) is what has been happening? Really?
> 
> I mean, in the PO section you expect some sort of confrontational looney-bin sticks & stones behavior, but here......in the General section......and no less than 7 pages of sheer "_mine is bigger than yours_"-ness?


More of a "Mine is bigger than yours, but the discussion is so nuanced that only a few people (who agree with me) can grasp the subtleties of my argument."


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Sagan's custom paint bikes he is using in the tour are only available in disc, both tarmac and venge, and specialized is making a large $750 premium on selling the Sagan Collection frames/bikes so other than the roubaix (not available in the new collection colors) it is unlikely you will see Sagan on a rim bike. 

I Just did a long ride with three cat 2 climbs and an HC (96 miles 9281 ft of climbing) and didn't feel I needed more braking on the way down any of them. Definitely easier gears on the first two climbs but discs would have provided no benefits at all so it definitely isn't just flatlanders or pros that don't need discs.

Sagan's tarmac is likely at or very close to the uci limit so technically other than wheel changes he has no performance loss by opting for discs. A similar rim tarmac when not subject to uci rules can be built up to sub 14lbs without going to extremes.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

taodemon said:


> Sagan's custom paint bikes he is using in the tour are only available in disc, both tarmac and venge, and specialized is making a large $750 premium on selling the Sagan Collection frames/bikes so other than the roubaix (not available in the new collection colors) it is unlikely you will see Sagan on a rim bike.
> 
> I Just did a long ride with three cat 2 climbs and an HC (96 miles 9281 ft of climbing) and didn't feel I needed more braking on the way down any of them. Definitely easier gears on the first two climbs but discs would have provided no benefits at all so it definitely isn't just flatlanders or pros that don't need discs.
> 
> Sagan's tarmac is likely at or very close to the uci limit so technically other than wheel changes he has no performance loss by opting for discs. A similar rim tarmac when not subject to uci rules can be built up to sub 14lbs without going to extremes.


Thanks for all your contributions taodemon. You understand the subject well and thanks for sharing your insight.

When this thread headed south with all the trolling, I was hoping Coolhand would delete it.

I am leaving the thread and the forum for a good long break...better for everybody.

Ride safe and thanks again.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*

Thread has been cleaned up, but seeing everyone inexplicably loves this topic I am leaving the thread open for now. Please don't make me regret this.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

Another way to look at things...first two weeks of the Tour, first year discs allowed, 6 of 15 stages saw discs on the winning bikes:

1 Gaviria: disc
2 Sagan: disc
3 BMC: rim
4 Gaviria: disc
5 Sagan: disc
6 Martin: rim
7 Groenewegen: rim
8 Groenewegen: rim
9 Degenkolb: disc
10 Alaphillipe: rim
11 Thomas: rim
12 Thomas: rim
13 Sagan: disc 
14 Fraile: disc
15 Nielsen: rim

So one answer to OP’s question: they are across the finish line first.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

MattMay said:


> Another way to look at things...first two weeks of the Tour, first year discs allowed, 6 of 15 stages saw discs on the winning bikes:
> 
> 1 Gaviria: disc
> 2 Sagan: disc
> ...


My conclusion: the best rider won each day


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

Well of course! And your implied point is a good one: I agree these differences in equipment choose are non-differentiators when it comes to who wins or loses.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Coolhand said:


> Thread has been cleaned up, but seeing everyone inexplicably loves this topic I am leaving the thread open for now. Please don't make me regret this.


are you watching this thread with your flinty eyes??


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

I wouldn't really count any sprint/flattish stages as a win for discs as neither the "benefits" or "drawbacks" of discs are really a factor on these stages. How many mountain stages have been won on disc would be more telling number as that is where they are supposed to make a difference.

Today there were two descending crashes, both on rim brakes, though from the footage I don't think discs would have helped, and the winning rider was also on rim brakes.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

taodemon said:


> I wouldn't really count any sprint/flattish stages as a win for discs as neither the "benefits" or "drawbacks" of discs are really a factor on these stages. How many mountain stages have been won on disc would be more telling number as that is where they are supposed to make a difference.
> 
> Today there were two descending crashes, both on rim brakes, though from the footage I don't think discs would have helped, and the winning rider was also on rim brakes.


If you're talking about Yates crash, I don't think it was a braking issue... He leaned into his front wheel too much on the descent... and his front wheel just slipped underneath him.. 

Phil Gilbert fly over the wall... I definitely agree, I don't think discs would have prevented Gilbert from crashing... He was going too fast and was on the wrong line when he decided to grab his brakes.

Both discs and rims would have caused him to lock up his rear wheel and cause him to skid to a dead stop. Unfortunately for Gilbert, he went too hot and off line. Only thing that literally stopped him was the wall.

I'm glad that it was a short fall and didn't happen during the other stages without any barriers!


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

DaveG said:


> My conclusion: the best rider won each day


IMO, I think it also has to do with manufacturers that offers both options for the TdF. I only noticed Specialized offering options for rim/discs for their riders to choose from.

For example, specialized/quickstep offers the tarmac in both rim and disc. Alaphilippe chose rim brakes and won his stages on rim brakes.

Specialized/Bora Hansgrohe too offers their riders rim/disc version of their tarmacs... GC contender Rafal Majka chose to ride the rim brakes...

Trek on the other hand won a few stages on discs... But it looks like Trek only offers disc only for this year's tour (I could be wrong).

So if you ask me... It seems like if riders were given an option, rim would be their choice?


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

eugenetsang said:


> IMO, I think it also has to do with manufacturers that offers both options for the TdF. I only noticed Specialized offering options for rim/discs for their riders to choose from.
> 
> For example, specialized/quickstep offers the tarmac in both rim and disc. Alaphilippe chose rim brakes and won his stages on rim brakes.
> 
> ...



They are not choosing aero bikes either, so if looking to the pro results, aero is only good if you are a sprinter.
Pros choosing tech they are familiar with and know works for them only points to bias, if the top climbers and GC guys were riding disc, they would still win just the same. 
The bike makes little to no difference, take the engines out and a Ferrari and a Prius are only as fast as the guy pushing.


And it is _possible_ that Gilbert might not have locked up his brakes (less likely to lock up the brakes with disc) and been able to scrub more speed with disc, but it is hard to know how much of a panic he was in. 



.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Actually, pros are using aero bikes. Sky is all on F10s which is more aero than it is light. Almost all of the specialized teams were on venges on the stages that called for them, including the non sprinters, and even their climbing bike the tarmac is now an aero bike. I'm pretty sure the trek guys were also on aero bikes for the flat stages, though I'm not certain of the breakdown. I don't know enough of about the other brands aero bikes but I'm sure they were well represented on non mountain stages. 

Including the the aero tarmac and f10, at least 11 (4/11 mountain) of the 16 stages this year have been won on aero bikes, 12 if you include the TTT.

Gilbert must have hit the brake for a second, it wasn't enough time to scrub speed, discs don't allow for that much late braking when you take a bad line into a set of opposite turns, especially when the second turn is sharper than the first. He was also the only one to crash on that spot.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

MoPho,

I guess what I am trying to say is... Only specialized that I know of offers their riders a rim/disc version of the Tarmac. Venge on the other hand only comes in disc. Specialized made that know already from the get go that there will be no rim brakes. But as for the Tarmac, they have both versions for their riders to choose from.

This is a hard debate since the other manufacturers are not as flexible as Specialized is with their teams... It'll be interesting to see what the riders would choose if the manufacturers gives them an option like Specialized... 

Not trying to beat a dead horse on this topic. But it's definitely an interesting topic to debate over..


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

taodemon said:


> Actually, pros are using aero bikes. Sky is all on F10s which is more aero than it is light. Almost all of the specialized teams were on venges *on the stages that called for them*, including the non sprinters, and even their climbing bike the tarmac is now an aero bike. I'm pretty sure the trek guys were also *on aero bikes for the flat stages*, though I'm not certain of the breakdown. I don't know enough of about the other brands aero bikes but I'm sure they were well represented on non mountain stages.
> 
> Including the the aero tarmac and f10, at least 11 (4/11 mountain) of the 16 stages this year have been won on aero bikes, 12 if you include the TTT.
> 
> Gilbert must have hit the brake for a second, it wasn't enough time to scrub speed, discs don't allow for that much late braking when you take a bad line into a set of opposite turns, especially when the second turn is sharper than the first. He was also the only one to crash on that spot.


Right, they were used on flat stages, and then most riders ditched them for the climbs. So if you are going to suggest that the pros not choosing disc for the climbing stages as evidence that they are not needed by consumers, the same logic could be made regarding aero bikes, not needed, except for flat riding. 


While the Tarmac and F10 may have aero features, they are not full aero bikes. Pinarello only has the one bike, so you can't look at the F10 as a choice.
The problem with cycling is there are so many variables you can't point to anything as evidence of success. Sky isn't dominating because they are riding Pinarellos, they dominate because they have the most money to spend on good riders and support.


As I see it, Gilbert wasn't able to scrub more speed because he locked the brake, the bike twitched, and he lost focus/control (wrong line through the corner aside). Had he not locked the brakes he may have been able to not panic, slow more and make the turn. Of course it is all speculation and impossible to know, but don't be so quick to dismiss that disc brake wouldn't help in that situation.



.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Right, they were used on flat stages, and then most riders ditched them for the climbs. So if you are going to suggest that the pros not choosing disc for the climbing stages as evidence that they are not needed by consumers, the same logic could be made regarding aero bikes, not needed, except for flat riding.
> 
> 
> While the Tarmac and F10 may have aero features, they are not full aero bikes. Pinarello only has the one bike, so you can't look at the F10 as a choice.
> ...


nah, Gilbert overcooked it, and paid the price. 199 other riders, disc and rim, went thru without a single incident, and no, not a single disc-equiped bike overtake any rim bike in that corner (as much as you'd like to see huh). Sorry, Gilbert overcooked, any motorcycle rider who has gone in hot trailbraking see it. Only you fantasize such notion that disc would have saved his ass. There is no substitute for skills.

And did you see how Alaphilippe railed downhill on his way to victory, rim brake eh. That was skills, skills that would have left most anyone riding disc... in the dust. 75 km/h around partially blind sweepers, serious skills and commitment.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

aclinjury said:


> and no, not a single disc-equiped bike overtake any rim bike in that corner (as much as you'd like to see huh).


How can you possibly know this?


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> nah, Gilbert overcooked it, and paid the price. 199 other riders, disc and rim, went thru without a single incident, and no, not a single disc-equiped bike overtake any rim bike in that corner (as much as you'd like to see huh). Sorry, Gilbert overcooked, any motorcycle rider who has gone in hot trailbraking see it. Only you fantasize such notion that disc would have saved his ass. There is no substitute for skills.
> 
> And did you see how Alaphilippe railed downhill on his way to victory, rim brake eh. That was skills, skills that would have left most anyone riding disc... in the dust. 75 km/h around partially blind sweepers, serious skills and commitment.



As usual, you fail at reading comprehension and just make up a bunch of crap. Whether he overcooked it, has "skills", or that 199 other riders made it through is completely irrelevant to my point. You can see after he overcooked the corner he locked up the rear wheels and the bike went squirrely and he lost control then hit the wall. Had he not locked the brake he might not have lost control and navigated the corner, albeit not well, but he might not have gone over the wall. As I noted, it is speculation, but not inconceivable 

And where did I say anything about overtaking in that corner? In fact, I've repeatedly said in many of these discussions that you have been involved in that I think it wouldn't be worth the risk to try and out brake someone into a tight corner.



> That was skills, skills that would have left most anyone riding disc... in the dust. 75 km/h around partially blind sweepers, serious skills and commitment


You keep repeating this kind of nonsense in every thread about disc, no one has ever suggested that disc brakes are a substitute for skills, so I don't know why you are so fixated on this. Skills are skills, doesn't matter what they are riding (and is actually my point that equipment doesn't matter that much). Your comment that he would leave anyone riding disc in the dust is baseless and assumes that the person on disc brakes doesn't also have skills.




Finx said:


> How can you possibly know this?


He doesn't


.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

Since equipment doesn’t matter much, where are all the 45 pound one speed beach cruisers with coaster brakes?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Finx said:


> How can you possibly know this?


a very good and sound educated guess based on how pro riders usually go around fast and tight corner like that, in one single long line. We're not talking about idiotic amateur loca crit heroes who think they can divebomb into such corner only to sometime put other guys and themselves onto the ground. That's how I know. Of course every now and then even a pro will make a mistake by overcooking, but it would be a mistake, not by design.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MattMay said:


> Since equipment doesn’t matter much, where are all the 45 pound one speed beach cruisers with coaster brakes?


At the beach?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> As usual, you fail at reading comprehension and just make up a bunch of crap. *Whether he overcooked it, has "skills", or that 199 other riders made it through is completely irrelevant to my point. You can see after he overcooked the corner he locked up the rear wheels and the bike went squirrely and he lost control then hit the wall. Had he not locked the brake he might not have lost control and navigated the corner, albeit not well, but he might not have gone over the wall. As I noted, it is speculation, but not inconceivable *
> 
> And where did I say anything about overtaking in that corner? In fact, I've repeatedly said in many of these discussions that you have been involved in that I think it wouldn't be worth the risk to try and out brake someone into a tight corner.
> 
> ...


only a person who has never pushed a 2-wheel vehicle to the edge of traction would fancy such notion that Gilbert might have been able to save it with disc. He crashed because he carried more speed around that corner than traction was able to afford him. Period. What he should have done was to stand the bike up a tad earlier (this would have required him to recognize that there was no way he was going to make the turn) and brake hard using only the front brake and don't touch the rear. Ever see motorcycle racers brake hard into corners? rear wheel slightly lifting off the ground, and zero rear braking. Gilbert made a mistake going into too hot, then he made another mistake trying to negotiate the corner it when he should have just stood the bike up and brake the front hard. He might still have hit the wall, but he might not. But trying to brake like he did to negotiate such corner at such speed scream "noob". 
Of course I would not fault him for making such mistake because he was racing and probably very tire so hist mental faculty was compromised. When Gilbert and his team go back to analyze the mistake, they would come back with the conclusion that he went in to hard and then didn't react fast and proper enough. He would not have wondered if disc would save his ass. But you're not tired, your mental faculty is not compromised, yet you choose to fantasize that disc would have save him. Good thing you're not a pro racer, you would not last long with such assessment!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

He shoulda turned in to the corner and went for it and hoped for some extra grip.

Nano second to decide.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> only a person who has never pushed a 2-wheel vehicle to the edge of traction would fancy such notion that Gilbert might have been able to save it with disc. He crashed because he carried more speed around that corner than traction was able to afford him. Period. What he should have done was to stand the bike up a tad earlier (this would have required him to recognize that there was no way he was going to make the turn) and brake hard using only the front brake and don't touch the rear. Ever see motorcycle racers brake hard into corners? rear wheel slightly lifting off the ground, and zero rear braking. Gilbert made a mistake going into too hot, then he made another mistake trying to negotiate the corner it when he should have just stood the bike up and brake the front hard. He might still have hit the wall, but he might not. But trying to brake like he did to negotiate such corner at such speed scream "noob".
> Of course I would not fault him for making such mistake because he was racing and probably very tire so hist mental faculty was compromised. When Gilbert and his team go back to analyze the mistake, they would come back with the conclusion that he went in to hard and then didn't react fast and proper enough. He would not have wondered if disc would save his ass. But you're not tired, your mental faculty is not compromised, yet you choose to fantasize that disc would have save him. Good thing you're not a pro racer, you would not last long with such assessment!



You might want to watch the footage again because you are completely wrong




> He crashed because he carried more speed around that corner than traction was able to afford him. Period.


Except he never managed to navigate around the corner and never lost traction except for his rear wheel skidding under braking while he went straight into the wall



> What he should have done was to stand the bike up a tad earlier


The bike was never leaned over for him to stand it up, he was going straight on a completely wrong line



> brake hard using only the front brake and don't touch the rear. Ever see motorcycle racers brake hard into corners? rear wheel *slightly lifting off the ground*, and zero rear braking.


Again, he was going straight and you can see after the initial skid, his rear wheel got off the ground as he tried to turn just before he hit the wall.



> But trying to brake like he did to negotiate such corner at such speed scream "noob".
> Of course I would not fault him for making such mistake because he was racing and probably very tire so hist mental faculty was compromised.


But wait, how can that be, he is a pro that we are supposed to look up to as gods who know what's good for us, right? As a pro he should have so much experience that he should know what to do even when tired, ya know, muscle memory, etc... 
Or perhaps descending a mountain pass, perhaps for your first time, is nothing like riding your motorcycle around a race track where you have all the corners memorized and you can trail brake and slide through corners 

The only mistake he made was misreading the road







Now I have been riding for over 25 years and am a very good descender, so spare me your condescending BS! I have had my rear rim brakes lock up like that quite a few times over the years but not so with disc brakes because rim brakes are more grabby than disc brakes. If you don't realize that you are in denial. 
As someone who claims to know so much about motorcycle riding, you of all people should be able to appreciate the benefit of having good feel through the brake lever, unless of course you're all big talk for a little man :lol:


And get it though your head, I am not saying that disc brakes would have saved him for sure, but no doubt it would have given him a better chance


.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> You might want to watch the footage again because you are completely wrong
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see that I have hurt your feelings a bit there big man. Ooo 25 years of experience, and you think disc could have save his ass? yes 25 years of nothing burger eh!!
Yes I have experience in motorcycle. "Brake lever feeling" is a learned thing man, your so called "good feeling" and all your bs talk about modulation is a learned reaction that you learn on the track. You'd surprised how the human brain and hands can work together. You talk like a noob who likes to blame his lack of skills on equipment, you're the type that likes to think that you got beat because of poor equipment. Yep, noob mentality from the get go. Gilbert was tired, object-fixated on that corner, never ever had a chance to make it, yet you choose to fantasize how disc suddenly can buy him skills? Let's talk the difference between brake and rim brake in term of power, they're almost EQUAL! Go watch the GCN videos, those guys tested them to be almost the same. But ok, you say it's not outright power, its the "lever feel" that disc offers that could have saved Gilbert's ass right? Sorry pal, but in this case for Gilbert, it ain't about "finessing the lever", it's all about being able to recognize ahead of time that you weren't gonna make it, and then being able to brake hard enough under such emergency. Gilbert would have needed to practice emergency braking like that, but I reckon most of the time he doesn't. Trailbraking under normal condition ain't the same as emergency braking under extreme condition. But yeah, go ahead and live the fantasy of disc.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

factory feel said:


> He shoulda turned in to the corner and went for it and hoped for some extra grip.
> 
> Nano second to decide.


I think he might be able to make the corner if he didn't fixate. Once he got spook, it was game over. Nano second to decide is right. Noob mistake by him, but a mentally tired mind will do that even to pros


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> I see that I have hurt your feelings a bit there big man. Ooo 25 years of experience, and you think disc could have save his ass? yes 25 years of nothing burger eh!!
> Yes I have experience in motorcycle. "Brake lever feeling" is a learned thing man, your so called "good feeling" and all your bs talk about modulation is a learned reaction that you learn on the track. You'd surprised how the human brain and hands can work together. You talk like a noob who likes to blame his lack of skills on equipment, you're the type that likes to think that you got beat because of poor equipment. Yep, noob mentality from the get go. Gilbert was tired, object-fixated on that corner, never ever had a chance to make it, yet you choose to fantasize how disc suddenly can buy him skills? Let's talk the difference between brake and rim brake in term of power, they're almost EQUAL! Go watch the GCN videos, those guys tested them to be almost the same. But ok, you say it's not outright power, its the "lever feel" that disc offers that could have saved Gilbert's ass right? Sorry pal, but in this case for Gilbert, it ain't about "finessing the lever", it's all about being able to recognize ahead of time that you weren't gonna make it, and then being able to brake hard enough under such emergency. Gilbert would have needed to practice emergency braking like that, but I reckon most of the time he doesn't. Trailbraking under normal condition ain't the same as emergency braking under extreme condition. But yeah, go ahead and live the fantasy of disc.



So in other words, you are now butt hurt that I proved your points wrong and you've resorted to hurling insults, again.
And yes, if with disc he didn't lock the rear wheel as abruptly and the bike didn't go squirrelly it could have saved his ass, all he needed was a little more control and few inches and he would have scraped the wall instead of going over it. 
Now how about you stop trying to prove what a "big man" you are, you know nothing of my skills napoleon. 





.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Disc brakes wouldn't have helped. He got spooked, uncliped, and body weight totally shifted wrong. If he would've stayed clipped in and shifted his weight back he could've maintained traction and not endo'd. If your rear wheel is off the ground, you're doing it wrong.

I don't know if I could've navigated that turn from the bad line, but no doubt I could've stopped before that wall.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

tlg said:


> Disc brakes wouldn't have helped. He got spooked, uncliped, and body weight totally shifted wrong. If he would've stayed clipped in and shifted his weight back he could've maintained traction and not endo'd. If your rear wheel is off the ground, you're doing it wrong.
> 
> I don't know if I could've navigated that turn from the bad line, but no doubt I could've stopped before that wall.


But wait, napoleon here says his rear wheel should have been off the ground like in motorcycle racing around a track. :lol:

I disagree, disc brakes could have have helped. Again, we're all speculating, but my experience with disc (13k miles on road disc, lots of fast technical descending) has been that rear brake lock is less likely. But you're right, his position is totally wrong, but I think it would have been hard for anyone not to panic in that situation.



.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

MoPho said:


> They are not choosing aero bikes either, so if looking to the pro results, aero is only good if you are a sprinter.


They are choosing them on flat stages where they should be choosing them. It isn't only sprinters using them, and as I mentioned, mountain stage wins on aero bikes so "only good for sprinters" doesn't hold water. 



MoPho said:


> Right, they were used on flat stages, and then most riders ditched them for the climbs. So if you are going to suggest that the pros not choosing disc for the climbing stages as evidence that they are not needed by consumers, the same logic could be made regarding aero bikes, not needed, except for flat riding.


Not the same logic at all, pros are ditching discs precisely where they should be most needed while using aero bikes precisely where they are most useful and designed to be used. Discs are being used by pros where they are least needed or make a difference, the flat stages. This whole thread is about the curiosity of this opposing dynamic despite bike manufacturers big push for disc everywhere. 

As far as consumers, if you live where you are mostly climbing mountains especially where grades are typically 7%+, a heavier aero bike is likely a poor purchase, same goes for discs where it is flat, especially if you don't regularly ride in the rain. Are there situations why consumers should get discs? Sure, but for me, I have yet to ride anything including the only HC climb in the state that made me think I was better off on discs. I will likely get a disc bike at some point but only because that is all that the aero bikes are coming in now and not because of any improvement in braking.



MoPho said:


> While the Tarmac and F10 may have aero features, they are not full aero bikes. Pinarello only has the one bike, so you can't look at the F10 as a choice.


The F10 is pretty damn close to being a full aero bike and the aero testing proves it. The Tarmac while not quite as aero is just as aero as the first generation venge which was a full aero bike, so I wouldn't just call them "aero features". While the F10 might not be a "choice" it an example of how your argument that aero is only good for sprinters really doesn't hold any water.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

MoPho said:


> I disagree, disc brakes could have have helped. Again, we're all speculating, but my experience with disc (13k miles on road disc, lots of fast technical descending) has been that rear brake lock is less likely. But you're right, his position is totally wrong, but I think it would have been hard for anyone not to panic in that situation.


If your rear wheel is off the ground, the type of brake is irrelevant. If you're unclipped looking to bail, the type of brake is irrelevant. 

Yea many people would panic in that situation. Would be expected for a young 21yro rider. Little surprised at Philippe though. He's been pro for 15 years.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> But wait, napoleon here says his rear wheel should have been off the ground like in motorcycle racing around a track. :lol:
> 
> I disagree, disc brakes could have have helped. Again, we're all speculating, but my experience with disc (13k miles on road disc, lots of fast technical descending) has been that rear brake lock is less likely. But you're right, his position is totally wrong, but I think it would have been hard for anyone not to panic in that situation.
> 
> ...


No big guy. Again, you are showing your noobism all over the place.
I said that once Gilbert got spooked and decided to bail his line, then the best option would have been to brake hard using only the front (in this case) brake as that would have provided the most stopping power and not touch his rear brake at all. He may or may not hit the wall, but this would have been the best option once he decided to bail his line. 

I did not say for him to brake with his rear had he decided to attempt to make the corner. Do you understand the difference there?

But let's also analyzing something that also reveals your noobism fantasy for disc. The discrepancy between rim brake and disc brake in the dry is VERY LITTLE, both in terms of STOPPING POWER and MODULATION. This has been shown quite adequately by the GCN guys by 2 of their videos. Furthermore, the notion of "modulation" is nothing magical in disc. Modulation is a learn hand motor response that guys will develop into muscle memory thru practice. It is an subjective feeling. So for you to keep boasting that the modulation of disc would have somehow allow Gilber to not lock the rear,... show how little you understand braking techniques and what's involved in it.

So now that we've established that there is very little difference between rim and disc brake in the dry, then we logically conclude that that the "difference in error" that a rider makes has to be very "minimal" in order for disc to compensate. Correct? Well guess what pal, the error by Gilbert was nothing minimal. It was an epic error, maybe it was target fixation, maybe it was lack of mental alertness leading to a slow decision making, be it debris on the road, whatever it was, it was an EPIC error that only a parachute could have saved him. But yeah, you go ahead and keep up the disc fantasy.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

He should have committed to the corner and used the rock wall as a berm!

braaaap!


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

MoPho said:


> You might want to watch the footage again because you are completely wrong
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's that rectangular white thing in the road on the inside of the corner? Maybe that affected his line trying to avoid it. I don't think his line going into the corner was all that bad (the motorcycle in front took a worse line). He definitely locked up the rear brake and the rear tire started to wash out and he clipped out the left foot. You have to straighten up the bike to recover and by then there's no way to make it around the corner. Braking in corners is to be avoided anyway.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

Sagan crashed today. He was on disc. Bottom line, rider error has more to do with crashes than rim vs disc debate. 

This is what Sagan said after he crossed the finish line. “I made a mistake. I crashed on a corner,” Sagan said. “I was braking but it was not enough. I flew into the forest and I hit a big rock with my ass.”

Gilbert's crash yesterday, he was on rim... Sagan's crash, he was on disc... Both riders made mistakes that led to their crashes. Speed and rider error are most likely the culprit. Yate's crash, he was also on rim brakes. But that was due to rider error. Not speed.

So we now have 3 crash scenarios where we can examine... Crashes has more to do with riders' error than anything else.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> No big guy. Again, you are showing your noobism all over the place.
> I said that once Gilbert got spooked and decided to bail his line, then the best option would have been to brake hard using only the front (in this case) brake as that would have provided the most stopping power and not touch his rear brake at all. He may or may not hit the wall, but this would have been the best option once he decided to bail his line.


No little guy, that is not what you said. 



> I did not say for him to brake with his rear had he decided to attempt to make the corner. Do you understand the difference there?


And where did I suggest you said that? 



> But let's also analyzing something that also reveals your noobism fantasy for disc. The discrepancy between rim brake and disc brake in the dry is VERY LITTLE, both in terms of STOPPING POWER and MODULATION. This has been shown quite adequately by the GCN guys by 2 of their videos.


Haha, GCN! Yeah, that was a total BS test. I used to work for a major car magazine and would often help with the brake testing and the GCN testing procedure was completely bogus. 
Proper testing would have been done with the same rider, measuring distance over a variety of speeds and in different directions. And to also test how braking deteriorates over multiple high speed stops. 
Their down the mountain test was also flawed, allowed too much rider inconsistency to be used as evidence of anything. But to be fair, it would be pretty impossible to even get a truly conclusive info out of a test like that, too many variables.



> Furthermore, the notion of "modulation" is nothing magical in disc. Modulation is a learn hand motor response that guys will develop into muscle memory thru practice. It is an subjective feeling. So for you to keep boasting that the modulation of disc would have somehow allow Gilber to not lock the rear,... show how little you understand braking techniques and what's involved in it.


Yes, you are such an "expert" on the subject, I bow to your highness. 

You confuse human coordination with mechanical modulation. I don't care how much practice you have in your hands, without feedback from the tool you are using it is worthless. There is a reason engineers of sports cars, sport bikes, etc., go to great lengths to get good feel in the touch points such as brakes, steering, suspension, and shifting, information is key to getting the most out of the vehicle. And it adds more fun to the experience. Have you ever driven a car with really dead steering or squishy brakes? 
You might also want to go do some more research on the engineering reasons why hydro disc gives more modulation and feedback over rim brakes. 
But hey, if you don't want to believe it, feel free to ditch those hydraulic disc brakes on your motorcycle for something cable operated, I am sure it will be just great! 



> So now that we've established that there is very little difference between rim and disc brake in the dry, then we logically conclude that that the "difference in error" that a rider makes has to be very "minimal" in order for disc to compensate. Correct? Well guess what pal, the error by Gilbert was nothing minimal. It was an epic error, maybe it was target fixation, maybe it was lack of mental alertness leading to a slow decision making, be it debris on the road, whatever it was, it was an EPIC error that only a parachute could have saved him. But yeah, you go ahead and keep up the disc fantasy.


Your chest beating doesn't establish anything. It seems you fail to understand the difference between speculate and substantiate. And just like you are, I am speculating (as I have repeatedly said). My point was very clear in that you can't simply dismiss that the outcome might have been different had he been on discs, but of course there is no way to prove one way or another. Now how about you get a life and stop with the insults already


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

eugenetsang said:


> Sagan crashed today. He was on disc. Bottom line, rider error has more to do with crashes than rim vs disc debate.
> 
> This is what Sagan said after he crossed the finish line. “I made a mistake. I crashed on a corner,” Sagan said. “I was braking but it was not enough. I flew into the forest and I hit a big rock with my ass.”
> 
> ...



Have not suggested otherwise. But the comments that you guys were so "sure" that disc wouldn't have helped Gilbert are not necessarily true, but there is no way to no either way for sure

.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> No little guy, that is not what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sure big guy, outcome could have been different if he was on disc, or if he had a parachute on him, or if he wears a different color helmet. I mean sh8t anything is possible and conceivable to make an argument, an argument that only you in here seems to buy wholeheartedly. 25 years of experience and you gave us that awesome analysis of yours? LMAO


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> sure big guy, outcome could have been different if he was on disc, or if he had a parachute on him, or if he wears a different color helmet. I mean sh8t anything is possible and conceivable to make an argument, an argument that only you in here seems to buy wholeheartedly. 25 years of experience and you gave us that awesome analysis of yours? LMAO



That's right little guy, it was much more awesome than the BS pretend expertise you gave us. :thumbsup:
Now go ask your mom if you can leave the basement



.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Have not suggested otherwise. But the comments that you guys were so "sure" that disc wouldn't have helped Gilbert are not necessarily true, but there is no way to no either way for sure
> 
> .


nah those with experience know for sure Gilbert would have eaten sh8t with disc too. But you, being a blind staunch pro disc guy in here, go to great extreme to argue about the "what if". Tell you what, bring your disc argument and try to sell it to motorcycle racers, you'll be laughed at. But hey, go ahead and think that disc can allow you to save an epic user error. Let's hope you're not as over confident in your descending skills as your ninja argumentative skills in here eh, "disc could have saved him", LMAO


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> nah those with experience know for sure Gilbert would have eaten sh8t with disc too. But you, being a blind staunch pro disc guy in here, go to great extreme to argue about the "what if". Tell you what, bring your disc argument and try to sell it to motorcycle racers, you'll be laughed at. But hey, go ahead and think that disc can allow you to save an epic user error. Let's hope you're not as over confident in your descending skills as your ninja argumentative skills in here eh



Actually, it would seem motorcycle racers fully believe in disc brakes. Like I said, feel free to ditch yours for something cable operated, then you can use the same death grip on your brake levers as you use on your little Penis. As you say, it's all in your hands... :lol:


.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Actually, it would seem motorcycle racers fully believe in disc brakes. Like I said, feel free to ditch yours for something cable operated, then you can use the same death grip on your brake levers as you use on your little Penis. As you say, it's all in your hands... :lol:
> 
> 
> .


oh my so now you're fixating on my "Penis" (with a capital P) now? what's the matter big guy, can't defend your argument at this point? You must feel a little hurt that Sagan, the ultimate bike handler in the peloton, using disc the ultimate stopping power, has crashed on the descent huh? Oh dear Sagan crashing is like a death blow to your disc fantasy eh. From disc to Penis, serious ninja skills! Next! I'm done with this fake descender.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> oh my so now you're fixating on my "Penis" (with a capital P) now? what's the matter big guy, can't defend your argument at this point? You must feel a little hurt that Sagan, the ultimate bike handler in the peloton, using disc the ultimate stopping power, has crashed on the descent huh? Oh dear Sagan crashing is like a death blow to your disc fantasy eh. From disc to Penis, serious ninja skills! Next! I'm done with this fake descender.


Awe, you really got me on that one Napoleon. :cryin:




.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> Furthermore, the notion of "modulation" is nothing magical in disc. Modulation is a learn hand motor response that guys will develop into muscle memory thru practice. It is an subjective feeling. So for you to keep boasting that the modulation of disc would have somehow allow Gilber to not lock the rear,... show how little you understand braking techniques and what's involved in it.


This is a paragraph that could only be produced by someone who has never used hydraulic disc brakes on steep, twisting mountain descents.


Muscle memory comes from repeated identical response/outcome encounters. Low pressure braking on high speed contaminated surfaces with poor heat dissipation never produce the kind of similarity that high pressure braking on low speed surfaces with high quality heat distribution and contaminate ejection does.


The precision of the modulation of hydraulic discs while under extreme deceleration is head and shoulders above that of rim brakes. With discs, it is common to charge hard into hairpins with weight far aft and to control the low pitch rear tire squawking with incredible precision. The inconsistency of the rim temperature and the gathering of contaminates with no exit ports does not produce similar precision.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*



MoPho said:


> Actually, it would seem motorcycle racers fully believe in disc brakes. Like I said, feel free to ditch yours for something cable operated, then you can use the same death grip on your brake levers as you use on your little Penis. As you say, it's all in your hands... :lol:
> 
> 
> .


In what world was this post a good idea? Not this one.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> This is a paragraph that could only be produced by someone who has never used hydraulic disc brakes on steep, twisting mountain descents.
> 
> 
> Muscle memory comes from repeated identical response/outcome encounters. Low pressure braking on high speed contaminated surfaces with poor heat dissipation never produce the kind of similarity that high pressure braking on low speed surfaces with high quality heat distribution and contaminate ejection does.
> ...


yet, in stage 17 TdF, with only about 40 miles and 10,000 ft elevation gained, filled with technical fast descents, Peter Sagan on his hydro disc crashed out on a descent while everyone else on rim made it. Your argument, like MoPho, doesn't hold water. In reality, skills will trump whatever small imaginable benefits you can think of for disc over rim.

But hey, go ahead and pretend that you could charge into hairpin, dive into corners, and late braking on your weekend rides like MotoGP racers. What nonsense. These are overtaking maneuvers, not used for fast and flowy riding. You have much to learn. Let's hope you don't ride like you reason here, it'd be scarry.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Is there any footage of Sagan's crash? I can't seem to find any online. He doesn't fall that often so I wonder what happened. The brake type on his bike likely had zero influence on his fall just like they weren't a factor on Gilbert's crash.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

taodemon said:


> Is there any footage of Sagan's crash? I can't seem to find any online. He doesn't fall that often so I wonder what happened. The brake type on his bike likely had zero influence on his fall just like they weren't a factor on Gilbert's crash.



There were no footage of Sagan's crash. He was in the back of the pack and wasn't contending for the stage win, so there were no cameras following him that day.

As I had posted a few pages back, Sagan told Velo News this: “I was braking but it was not enough. I flew into the forest and I hit a big rock with my ass.”

He admitted that he was descending too fast and wasn't on the (disc) brakes early enough.. Which caused him to wipe out... And again, proof is in the pudding. Sagan, Yates, Gilbert, Quintana, and etc all crashed. All were either on rim or discs... Most crashes occurs due to rider error. Not because of what type of brakes they were using. Sure, we can all agree that discs are "better" than rims... But why aren't the pros using them?

Back to the topic at hand, 11spd and I were both wondering where are all the disc brakes this year for the TdF? We were only asking this because at the LBS, it's virtually impossible to purchase a new bike on rim brakes. Since the bike industry is moving towards disc brakes on all their bikes, how come that doesn't translate into the pro tour? 

We assumed that the Tour de France would be the biggest stage for companies like Specialized to market their "technology of the future"... But contrary to that, we all witnessed that the archaic rim brakes are still the majority for this year's tour... Which contradicts what the manufactures/LBS are telling us...

I really don't know how a simple conversation about where are all the disc brakes in this years TdF turned into a bunch of personal insults to one another....


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

eugenetsang said:


> But contrary to that, we all witnessed that the archaic rim brakes are still the majority for this year's tour...


One example of that would be Quntana's win yesterday despite the wheel problem he suffered before making the successful attack. They were able to change his front wheel twice in short time, once with his teammate and once when the team car caught up to him.


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

I think pros in almost every sport are reluctant to change equipment. In tennis, unless there’s a widely publicized racquet change at the very top ranks (like Federer a couple years ago, Djokovic this year), what’s sold in stores is nowhere near what’s in a pro’s hands. It’s usually the racquet they’ve been using for years painted to look like what’s sold in stores. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but when the “new” (but now standard) compact frame geo (sloping top tube etc) was introduced, wasn’t it a few years before it became extinct in the peloton? Same with indexed shifting, then electronic shifting? I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a majority shift in the first year. 

In mountain biking, only this year did 29er wheels become the norm in downhill...last year only a rider or two chanced to try it out. 

Same in golf...the clubs most top flite pros use are not what the stores sell. Forged steel vs cast iron for example. 

I think it takes time to get familiar and confident with such changes, and I know enough retired pros (most now coaching) in the various sports listed above and they all tell me that during competition, especially a “grand” level one, is not where you try out new stuff. It’s the last place. Adoption always happens over time, “offline” in practice, with hours and hours and hours put in testing...then at smaller competitions to build confidence.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

bvber said:


> One example of that would be Quntana's win yesterday despite the wheel problem he suffered before making the successful attack. They were able to change his front wheel twice in short time, once with his teammate and once when the team car caught up to him.


That is the basic gist of this thread. Not which system is "better". But more so, which "system" do pro riders prefer when every single second counts... By the looks of it, most pro riders prefer rim brake setup because of the ease and quickness that a rider can swap out wheels, without losing valuable time.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> yet, in stage 17 TdF, with only about 40 miles and 10,000 ft elevation gained, filled with technical fast descents, Peter Sagan on his hydro disc crashed out on a descent while everyone else on rim made it. Your argument, like MoPho, doesn't hold water. In reality, skills will trump whatever small imaginable benefits you can think of for disc over rim.
> 
> But hey, go ahead and pretend that you could charge into hairpin, dive into corners, and late braking on your weekend rides like MotoGP racers. What nonsense. These are overtaking maneuvers, not used for fast and flowy riding. You have much to learn. Let's hope you don't ride like you reason here, it'd be scarry.


Your continued use of isolated anecdotal evidence as proof of anything is telling. You'd do well to get some experience with hydraulic discs on steep twisting descents (think 9%+) and get back to us.


These disc threads mostly consist of arguments pulled out of one's ass. Suggesting that "riders ride what their sponsors tell them" one time and "what riders ride with is proof of the superiority of a technology" 4 post later has become common.


RBR would be doing a favor to those looking for valid product reviews by prohibiting those who are not certified users from posting their fantasies about new technology.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Your continued use of isolated anecdotal evidence as proof of anything is telling. You'd do well to get some experience with hydraulic discs on steep twisting descents (think 9%+) and get back to us.
> 
> 
> These disc threads mostly consist of arguments pulled out of one's ass. Suggesting that "riders ride what their sponsors tell them" one time and "what riders ride with is proof of the superiority of a technology" 4 post later has become common.
> ...


So let me get this straight. When a rider (Gilbert) on rim brakes crashes, the pro-disc crowds wonder if disc would have saved him. But when best bike handler (Sagan) on disc crashes out, it's just an anecdote and not to be used? Cherry picking the evidence, gotcha.

I and plenty of other riders around here have done plenty of 10-12% avg for 4 miles long with plenty of twisties, on rim brakes. I'll tell you what, more cyclists have been hit and killed by cars than have died from descending the mountains around here.

"modulation" vs. "capacity to modulate" vs "muscle memory" and how all that play into "brake feel at the lever". You need to understand this before attempting to pout the advantage of disc. Disc has certain advantages over rim that are quantitatively measurable. But the notion of "brake modulation" is not quantitatively measurable because it depends on human subject factors such as feel and muscle memory.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Sagan, and most of Bora other than maybe Rafa, have been using disc tarmacs on the mountain stages lately. Sagan crashed on a 7% average descent while using discs while most riders made it down just fine on rim brakes. 

Most of us aren't descending the alps or pyrenees on a regular basis. We do have some descents that are 8-11% with some sharp turns on them around here, though obviously not on the level of the alps/pyreness, but I've never felt my rim brakes were not more than enough braking. Maybe discs would allow me to literally ride the brakes and go all the way without going over 15mph without having to worry about braking technique but what would be the fun in that?

Descent Sagan crashed on with disc brakes:
https://www.strava.com/segments/2231628



There is no segment for the descent but here is the full route (Gilbert crashed on first descent).
https://www.strava.com/activities/1724702137

Where Gilbert Crashed:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42....2/@42.9479864,0.8215244,17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0


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## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

Sorry. I couldn't stomach reading thru this. I only made it thru the first page. As far as I could tell the biggest hindrance to discs for the pros is wheel changes for flats.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

mackgoo said:


> Sorry. I couldn't stomach reading thru this. I only made it thru the first page. As far as I could tell the biggest hindrance to discs for the pros is wheel changes for flats.


Yup. They were showing the Mavic neutral support last night and all the wheel types they have to carry. There's like 6-8 different wheel types. One of the stages they grabbed a 160mm wheel for a 140mm bike. Big delay.

Conventional quick release wheels
140mm rotor disc wheels (with multiple axle systems)
160mm rotor wheels (with multiple axle systems)


Until they dictate a rotor size and axle type, disc will never be widely adopted. The risk of a botched wheel change is too great.


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

eugenetsang said:


> I really don't know how a simple conversation about where are all the disc brakes in this years TdF turned into a bunch of personal insults to one another....


The first sentence of the first post set the tone.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

eugenetsang said:


> We assumed that the Tour de France would be the biggest stage for companies like Specialized to market their "technology of the future"... But contrary to that, we all witnessed that the archaic rim brakes are still the majority for this year's tour...


You know what they say about assuming right?

I think you've answered your own question of why it turned into a name calling sausage fest when you stated that "archaic rim brakes are still the majority".

No one likes their equipment choice looked down upon.


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## eugenetsang (Jun 9, 2011)

factory feel said:


> You know what they say about assuming right?
> 
> I think you've answered your own question of why it turned into a name calling sausage fest when you stated that "archaic rim brakes are still the majority".
> 
> No one likes their equipment choice looked down upon.


Archaic isn't necessarily a bad term. I prefer the "archaic" system. On this year's tour, rim brakes are still the majority. Despite what the LBS and manufacturers are pushing, I'm just stating the obvious


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> So let me get this straight. When a rider (Gilbert) on rim brakes crashes, the pro-disc crowds wonder if disc would have saved him. But when best bike handler (Sagan) on disc crashes out, it's just an anecdote and not to be used? Cherry picking the evidence, gotcha.
> 
> I and plenty of other riders around here have done plenty of 10-12% avg for 4 miles long with plenty of twisties, on rim brakes. I'll tell you what, more cyclists have been hit and killed by cars than have died from descending the mountains around here.
> 
> "modulation" vs. "capacity to modulate" vs "muscle memory" and how all that play into "brake feel at the lever". You need to understand this before attempting to pout the advantage of disc. Disc has certain advantages over rim that are quantitatively measurable. But the notion of "brake modulation" is not quantitatively measurable because it depends on human subject factors such as feel and muscle memory.


I have no idea nor have I made comment about "Gilbert". 

Your notion about modulation precision of discs verses rim brakes is clearly the biproduct of a lack of experience. Few legitimate / experienced users of hydraulic disc brakes on steep twisting routes would make such a claim.


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

taodemon said:


> Most of us aren't descending the alps or pyrenees on a regular basis. We do have some descents that are 8-11% with some sharp turns on them around here, though obviously not on the level of the alps/pyreness, but I've never felt my rim brakes were not more than enough braking. Maybe discs would allow me to literally ride the brakes and go all the way without going over 15mph without having to worry about braking technique but what would be the fun in that?


My somewhat unscientific analysis based on the difference between disc and rim braking with mountain bikes on a trail is that the disc brakes are definitely superior in regards to brake modulation. Discs are also more predictable in how much braking power you get at different times. Even with dry conditions rim brakes will often have a slight lag in the braking power before they kick-in fully, depending on whatever film has built up on the rim. Overall the result I've seen is that the disc brakes give me a lot more confidence that when I grab the brakes they will more precisely give the braking power that I want.

And of course we all had the experience of how rim brakes are quite different in their braking power when the rim gets wet. I've had the very non-warm-fuzzy feeling of doing a road race in the rain, shoulder-to-shoulder in a peloton at high speeds, and then grabbing a little bit of brake and pretty much nothing happens. Riding on faith that nothing bad happens indeed.

All that being said, Gilbert clearly took a wrong line into a turn. Maybe it is possible in trying to correct his mistake and scrub speed he experienced a bit of that rim brake lag that can happen, and then it was really too late to scrub enough speed. Probably not though in this case, and disc brake probably wouldn't have helped.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> RBR would be doing a favor to those looking for valid product reviews by prohibiting those who are not certified users from posting their fantasies about new technology.


Swift,

This thread is in a certain sense about a product review, by riders at the highest level. Their attitude towards discs in the TdF is based on their experience with discs – on their “review” of them, if you wish.

The conclusion? The majority doesn’t ride them, even when Shimano et al. dearly wish they would. It’s a fairly negative review (although not entirely).

The reason is probably that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. The biggest disadvantage are the risky wheel changes. Everybody here seems to agree on this (and L’Equipe mentioned it too). 

But what are the advantages? This is where it gets interesting. In this TdF there hasn’t been one single objective indication that discs have relevant advantages over rims on the highest level. 

It may be different for the average cyclist. But I must admit I find this a bit hard to believe. I’m willing to accept the existence of technological evolutions that give the pros a relevant advantage, but not the average cyclist. That’s because I’m willing to accept that the pros find themselves daily in that little corner were details become important (aero frames may be in this category). 

The opposite sounds slightly implausible, though. How can discs be an advantage for the average cyclist, but not for the pros? Does the advantage disappear on a certain skill level? That would mean discs mask a lack of skills. I have no problem with this – I know my skills are below par - but it’s a message that some proponents of discs perhaps don’t like to hear. 

To be clear: I don’t claim experience with discs. I’m only trying to understand the review of discs as presented by the practices and the results of the pros riding the TdF 2018.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

There is a difference relative the braking of disc vs rim and the Gilbert crash. 
Gilbert crashed because he exceeding the capabilities of his equipment and abilities. This happened not because his skills were poor or his bike was bad. He was racing and push both limits and exceeded them. Give him a bike with 25% better braking I think he still would have crashed because he would have been going faster in the first place. No reason when leading and trying to push hard on a descent to leave anything left on the table. Race car drivers with most capable cars in the world and the highest skills still crash. It happens.

Now for the rest of us we don't push the limits so having more capability for emergency situations is always nice. I know I feel more confident in braking from 30-40 mph to 10 mph on 7-8% grades on disc than rim. The braking during the decel is more consistent and linear. The rims would start strong and start to fade and feel jerky and not smooth.


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

Gilbert's crash IMO was 100 percent rider error. No other factors were functionally or significantly involved.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

HFroller said:


> Swift,
> 
> This thread is in a certain sense about a product review, by riders at the highest level. Their attitude towards discs in the TdF is based on their experience with discs – on their “review” of them, if you wish.
> 
> ...


Not intending to be offensive, but you have this exactly backwards. 

Pros descend in extremely controlled conditions. There are no uphill cars or busses, no tourists running across the road oblivious to the idea that there may be a quiet vehicle coming around the curve at high speed, no serious pot holes in the middle of hairpins, and no oblivious drivers going nearly the same speed that can only be passed going into or out of hairpins.


The recreational rider racing his riding partners down mountain passes often finds it necessary to get out of his drops in order to get his ass well behind the seat in anticipapation of a road blocking obstacle suddenly appearing in the upcoming hairpin (usually a tour buss with a long wheelbase that blocks the entire hairpin). This is the only way to keep both tires in play during serious steep downshill braking. He may also require some height to look over the edge for uphill traffic that will keep him from cutting the apex. Both require superb braking from the hoods--something that is not required in the controlled environment of tour racing. 

Finally, the recreational rider has to make do with a much tighter radius right hand turn than pros due to the potential of uphill traffic. It is in these turns (coming out) that he has the opportunity to pass an auto that have been holding him up.


In short, recreational downhilling with your friends is more like a thrilling video game and requires complete awareness of the ongoing possibility of something popping up in front of you (sometimes coming at you from the opposite direction) that requires and teaches acute and calm emergency braking skills.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

tlg said:


> Yup. They were showing the Mavic neutral support last night and all the wheel types they have to carry. There's like 6-8 different wheel types. One of the stages they grabbed a 160mm wheel for a 140mm bike. Big delay.
> 
> Conventional quick release wheels
> 140mm rotor disc wheels (with multiple axle systems)
> ...


This seems like a little hyperbole to me.

There are two rotor sizes, but there is only one axle type used (12mm) on disc brake road bikes. At least as far as the hubs are concerned. Sure the frame itself may have a different thread or whatever, but you don't swap axles when you swap wheels. The hubs are all the same. 

Standardizing on 140mm front and 160mm rear (or 140 for both if that is what they want) is the solution.


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

For road bikes:

Disc brakes overall are more effective than rims in braking effectiveness. This is especially true in wet weather or greasy or wet dirty road conditions.

Disc brakes cost significantly more than rim brakes. 

The potential cost to maintain and repair or replace disc brakes is significantly more than rim brakes and they have more areas of potential problems.

Disc brakes are better on _steep_ descents than rib brakes. 

What else is there to say except pick what is right for you or what you want!

I prefer rim brakes because of the ease to maintain, less cost, the great year-round weather where I live and few of my descents are steep enough to require hard and sustained breaking. (Actually only one comes to mind.)

If I lived in a different place without the great year-round weather or good dry roads and or I did steep descents regularly I would get disc brakes.


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## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

Finx said:


> This seems like a little hyperbole to me.
> 
> There are two rotor sizes, but there is only one axle type used (12mm) on disc brake road bikes. At least as far as the hubs are concerned. Sure the frame itself may have a different thread or whatever, but you don't swap axles when you swap wheels. The hubs are all the same.
> 
> Standardizing on 140mm front and 160mm rear (or 140 for both if that is what they want) is the solution.


The point I was making is, there's no quick release. You either take a few minutes, a minute anyway to change the wheel or they carry spare bikes instead of wheels. The spare bike route is the way they were going.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

GlobalGuy said:


> Disc brakes cost significantly more than rim brakes.
> 
> The potential cost to maintain and repair or replace disc brakes is significantly more than rim brakes and they have more areas of potential problems.


Are you talking about hydraulic disc brakes?


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

bvber said:


> Are you talking about hydraulic disc brakes?


Correct.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/07/29/disc-brakes-in-the-tour-de-france/


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## MattMay (Jul 9, 2018)

^ Great article. Pretty much sums this whole thread up and brings it to conclusion, nay?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

The final answer is that rim brakes are really the same as disc brakes except they have a bigger rotor, the wheel.

And their simplicity is unparalleled.

This isn't mountain bike racing, it's road racing.

I think the "industry" may be getting ready to take a Big financial hit after disc brakes are proven not to be wanted.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

factory feel said:


> I think the "industry" may be getting ready to take a Big financial hit after disc brakes are proven not to be wanted.


Just because they may not be preferred in professional racing doesn't mean they are a failure in the marketplace. After all, the pros use sewups and 99.9% of the rest of us don't.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

mfdemicco said:


> Just because they may not be preferred in professional racing doesn't mean they are a failure in the marketplace. After all, the pros use sewups and 99.9% of the rest of us don't.


Good point. And the LBS salesman telling customers that disc brakes “are the future so you don’t want get caught out” is another. 

If I were relatively new or returning to cycling after a prolonged lay off I could see myself going for a disc bike without hesitation because it looks like it makes sense due to the fact that cars and motorcycles and mountain bikes have them it must be a way to future proof your new purchase. 

Alternatively, knowing what I know now, I would hesitate on which way to go. 

The bad thing is, and there’s no way around it is you must decide one way or the other because nothings interchangeable except a few odds and ends. 

Either go disc or risk getting an instantly outdated mode of braking. 

Tough call and I can see where Donald the Dentist would easily be convinced of the disc brake bikes prowess and sexiness. 

And then there’s the peer pressure and that’s a whole other Oprah........


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

^yeah, mtbs came with both for a long long time, gave everyone the choice and use whichever they wanted until discs became ubiquitous...and this for a bunch of people that WANTED discs. Would have thought giving frames both for a consumer base that maybe maybe not wants discs would be an idea.

and yes i know the weight issue..but it would still make sense really


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

mfdemicco said:


> Just because they may not be preferred in professional racing doesn't mean they are a failure in the marketplace. After all, the pros use sewups and 99.9% of the rest of us don't.


It's hard to fail in the marketplace when for instance the largest bike company in the world, Trek, in the lastest line of road bikes from top to bottom don't offer a choice of rim or disc. It is 90 percent disk. Actually more like 100 percent for the newest and also top of the model lines.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

GlobalGuy said:


> It's hard to fail in the marketplace when for instance the largest bike company in the world, Trek, in the lastest line of road bikes from top to bottom don't offer a choice of rim or disc. It is 90 percent disk. Actually more like 100 percent for the newest and also top of the model lines.


This is exactly the part I dislike about the way discs have come to market, that the manufacturers are dictating the change and not necessarily consumers. I don't have an issue with discs as a technology, I just don't like being bullied. The thugs from Trek with have to pry my rim brake bikes out of my dead hands!


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

GlobalGuy said:


> It's hard to fail in the marketplace when for instance the largest bike company in the world, Trek,


Trek isn't the largest.



DaveG said:


> This is exactly the part I dislike about the way discs have come to market, that the manufacturers are dictating the change and not necessarily consumers. I don't have an issue with discs as a technology, I just don't like being bullied. The thugs from Trek with have to pry my rim brake bikes out of my dead hands!


And this is different than any other industry how? Try and find a car with manual transmission. How about a car without anti-lock brakes. Front wheel drive. Electronic fuel injection.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> There is a difference relative the braking of disc vs rim and the Gilbert crash.
> Gilbert crashed because he exceeding the capabilities of his equipment and abilities. This happened not because his skills were poor or his bike was bad. He was racing and push both limits and exceeded them. Give him a bike with 25% better braking I think he still would have crashed because he would have been going faster in the first place. No reason when leading and trying to push hard on a descent to leave anything left on the table. Race car drivers with most capable cars in the world and the highest skills still crash. It happens.
> 
> Now for the rest of us we don't push the limits so having more capability for emergency situations is always nice. I know I feel more confident in braking from 30-40 mph to 10 mph on 7-8% grades on disc than rim. The braking during the decel is more consistent and linear. The rims would start strong and start to fade and feel jerky and not smooth.


apparently judging from this thread, a lot of recreational riders think disc will allow them to suddenly grow new courage and late brake into corners. It's a false sense of security. And speaking of emergency situation, when was the last time anybody practice such emergency situation? Conditioned response requires on-going and regular practice to keep the reflex sharp. Idealizing that disc (or any) brake will suddenly magically allow you to react to an emergency response is a false sense of security.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

tlg said:


> ...Try and find a car with manual transmission...


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

tlg said:


> Try and find a car with manual transmission.


I haven't been following car industry recently and am surprised to hear this.  If true, I'm going for _sleeper car_ (and bicycle).


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

bvber said:


> I haven't been following car industry recently and am surprised to hear this.  If true, I'm going for _sleeper car_ (and bicycle).


Not impossible but getting hard. Especially in a middle of the road car. Some bare bones base models and top of the line performance models. I recently bought my first new car since 2006. It was surprising.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> apparently judging from this thread, a lot of recreational riders think disc will allow them to suddenly grow new courage and late brake into corners. It's a false sense of security. And speaking of emergency situation, when was the last time anybody practice such emergency situation? Conditioned response requires on-going and regular practice to keep the reflex sharp. Idealizing that disc (or any) brake will suddenly magically allow you to react to an emergency response is a false sense of security.


There are some misconceptions here. 

First, the human mind teaches us survival skills--lest we not survive. We are conditioned to approach danger with some margin to deal with variations we have experienced in the past. Rim brakes have taught us that heat, moisture, wear, and/or grit will produce a less effective braking outcome than cool, dry, new, clean rims and pads. We often use a small early test deceleration to get an idea of what we will be dealt within the upcoming hairpin and we error of the side of survival.


To whatever degree we eliminate those variables or their impact we reduce the danger. When we know with certainty that our brakes will act the same way every time the survival instinct makes the adjustment to the new reality.

Secondly, an emergency is an unexpected event. By definition, we can not set out to practice unexpected events. While it is possible to set up a test environment whereby a variety of different problems arise at random times, the knowledge that it is going to happen changes the mindset and diminishes the effectiveness.

Finally, few actual users of hydraulic disc brakes would agree with your speculation that they will not / did not provide a significant advantage while racing your riding buddies (still on rim brakes) on steep twisting mountain descents.

Again, you would do well to get some actual experience of hydraulic disc brakes in this environment. Do not, however, expect to make the adjustment in one such descent.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

velodog said:


> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/07/29/disc-brakes-in-the-tour-de-france/


excellent article


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> There are some misconceptions here.
> 
> First, the human mind teaches us survival skills--lest we not survive. We are conditioned to approach danger with some margin to deal with variations we have experienced in the past. Rim brakes have taught us that heat, moisture, wear, and/or grit will produce a less effective braking outcome than cool, dry, new, clean rims and pads. We often use a small early test deceleration to get an idea of what we will be dealt within the upcoming hairpin and we error of the side of survival.
> 
> ...


if gradient is 10% or more, I'm passing the motos and cars with disc brakes on the downhill, and you can take that to the bank. Yes, all on rim brakes and skinny tires. I'd say that's pretty good experience.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> if gradient is 10% or more, I'm passing the motos and cars with disc brakes on the downhill, and you can take that to the bank. Yes, all on rim brakes and skinny tires. I'd say that's pretty good experience.


Yes, your rim brake experience does give you intimate knowledge of the effectiveness of disc brakes--especially with your passing of cars and motorcycles with disc brakes. 

I passed a new Ferrari with my 2005 suburban last year (it has drum brakes on the rear wheels) substantiating your theory of the superiority of rim brakes. 

Your grasp of rational thought processes is something that you should be very proud of.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I think we should all come to a compromise, and as used previously for years.... 
Put disks on the front and rim brakes on the back.
I think it would the the absolute best of both worlds, you have the low level control for the rear and the brute force control on the front. 
Then how many wheels would mavic have to have in the car?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

duriel said:


> I think we should all come to a compromise, and as used previously for years....
> Put disks on the front and rim brakes on the back.
> I think it would the the absolute best of both worlds, you have the low level control for the rear and the brute force control on the front.
> Then how many wheels would mavic have to have in the car?


I apologize for giving you grief before, I didn't realize you were......


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