# Please, recommend some 36-hole rims for Audax riding



## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Hello! I own a pair of old Campagnolo Chorus hubs with 36 holes, they are pre-2000.Those hubs are easy to maintain and change bearings in my LBS.I would like to build a wheelset for Audax riding and maybe some very light gravel / forest riding, but no MTB-ing.LBS recommend I get Mavic Open Pros, but they are notorious with problems with noise and eyelets, and a friend of mine had horribles problems with his rims.I will buy from bike-components, since I am located in Europe.They stock most Mavic rims, as well as the excellent - looking DT SWISS 535.
I would not ride with narrower that 700 x 32mm tyres.My Guerciotti Cross Force frame should have clearance for 35-40mm tyres.I was thinking of Vittoria Voyager 700 x 35mm tyres, what are 400g in their folding version.I ride Audax on some quite horrible roads with endless potholes, so I want light, but durable rims.Rider weight is 200 lbs / 90 kg.
The bike-components.de website stocks DT SWISS 535 and Mavic A719 for 20 € each.They are both identical in weight, and 622 x 19C, which means I can safely run as wide as my frame allows it.Which one should I get and why ? The 622 x 15C rims, Mavic CXP 33 and Open Pro are more than twice the price at 50 €.They are a tad lighter and I wonder if a slow guy like me can benefit from that.My average speed is 22 km/h, which is about 13 - 14 mph.I am confused...


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I can highly reccomend H+Son Archetype rims - available in 36H.

They are new wider style, well made, sturdy and build up very easily.

In the US they can be bought in the $50-$65 range.

H Plus Son — Archetype


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Velocity A23, H+Sons, HED Belgiums.

Have no idea on cost or availability over the pond. But I have used the A23s on a few sets, and the HED. Like the HEDs better, but double the cost here. Not tried the Archetypes, yet. May be next on my list after a friend built up a set and spoke highly.


FWIW, I have some Conti Speed Ride 42C that are really about 38-9. I have had them on both 19C and 15C rims. My observation is that when you get over 30mm or so on a tire, the wider rim make less of a profile difference on the way the tire sits. 

Example; The Speed Ride is only about 1 mm wider and lower on the wider rim. Where-as a 25-7mm road tire has more of a 2-3mm difference of the ones I have had on both rims. Also, the feel and improvement IMO, I only notice when I run a 23-5 on the wider rims. YMMV.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks! It seems that Mr. Julio is always helpful, when I need some advice.Unfortunately, those rims are way too expensive and I would not spend a fortune on rims.I know an MTB racer who owns a state of the art $ 5000 bike, and rides it with the cheapest rims - as they are just like napkins - should be cheap and easy to throw away, he says.
I forgot to mention that I will be using mini - V - brakes, the TRP CX 8.4 ones.My Guerciotti Cross Force frame does not support disc brakes.
And finally, the Archetype shop from the link says they do not ship to Bulgaria.Some German shops carry it, but they will be twice the price, compared to both Mavic A719 and DT SWISS 535 rims.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Fixt00l said:


> rides it with the cheapest rims - as they are just like napkins - should be cheap and easy to throw away, he says.



As long as they are stiff enough. For example I do like the HED better in this dept over the A23s. I have fronts built with 24 Spoke HED, and 28 and 32 Spoke A23 wheels all same Shimano hub dimensions and same Sapim Race spokes. The 24 spoke HED wheel is stiffer laterally.

So honestly for wheel i will be riding, I take the comment "cheap and easy to throw away" with a grain of spoke prep. No disrespect to your friend. How much he weighs and size of rims being factors. 26er wheel is inherently stiffer than any 700C I ride I would guess.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Fixt00l said:


> Hello! I own a pair of old Campagnolo Chorus hubs with 36 holes, they are pre-2000.Those hubs are easy to maintain and change bearings in my LBS.I would like to build a wheelset for Audax riding and maybe some very light gravel / forest riding, but no MTB-ing.LBS recommend I get Mavic Open Pros, but they are notorious with problems with noise and eyelets, and a friend of mine had horribles problems with his rims.I will buy from bike-components, since I am located in Europe.They stock most Mavic rims, as well as the excellent - looking DT SWISS 535.
> I would not ride with narrower that 700 x 32mm tyres.My Guerciotti Cross Force frame should have clearance for 35-40mm tyres.I was thinking of Vittoria Voyager 700 x 35mm tyres, what are 400g in their folding version.I ride Audax on some quite horrible roads with endless potholes, so I want light, but durable rims.Rider weight is 200 lbs / 90 kg.
> The bike-components.de website stocks DT SWISS 535 and Mavic A719 for 20 € each.They are both identical in weight, and 622 x 19C, which means I can safely run as wide as my frame allows it.Which one should I get and why ? The 622 x 15C rims, Mavic CXP 33 and Open Pro are more than twice the price at 50 €.They are a tad lighter and I wonder if a slow guy like me can benefit from that.My average speed is 22 km/h, which is about 13 - 14 mph.I am confused...


IMO, neither the 535 nor the A719 is optimal for either your weight or the intended use. I would opt for a rim around 480grams and would lace them 3x with 14/15 butted spokes and brass nipples. For tires I would use the Voyager Hyper not the Voyager.
These would make a nice wheelset for Rando duty. The rims and tires you are thinking about are more suitable for loaded touring than randonneuring or Audax.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm really happy with the DT TK540 on my touring bike... most likely what I'd put on a cross bike too.

That said, I think the H plus Son TB14 would look great with those hubs... Not sure how they stack up for longterm durability.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

bikerjulio said:


> I can highly reccomend H+Son Archetype rims - available in 36H.
> 
> They are new wider style, well made, sturdy and build up very easily.
> 
> ...


I can vouch for H+Son Archetype rims as well. Good price and great quality.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

That is what I meant, the Voyager Hyper tyres.So, you say I should opt for the CXP 33s ? Do they have the quality control issues, creaking noise and eyelet problems like the Open Pro rims ? The CXP 33T weight around 470 grams.The DT SWISS are around 540 grams, this means I am saving 70 grams per rim and 140 grams per pair.Are 140 grams worth paying 3 times the price, as the DT rim is abput 3x cheaper than the CXP 33s ? If I go for a 1200 km randonee like the Paris - Brest - Paris one, or Sliven - Varna - Sofia - Sliven one, I might throw in some Continenal GP 4000 SII tyres to save weight.They are around 280 grams per tyre, and the Voyager Hyper are about 400g per tyre.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Fixt00l said:


> That is what I meant, the Voyager Hyper tyres.So, you say I should opt for the CXP 33s ? Do they have the quality control issues, creaking noise and eyelet problems like the Open Pro rims ? The CXP 33T weight around 470 grams.The DT SWISS are around 540 grams, this means I am saving 70 grams per rim and 140 grams per pair.Are 140 grams worth paying 3 times the price, as the DT rim is abput 3x cheaper than the CXP 33s ? If I go for a 1200 km randonee like the Paris - Brest - Paris one, or Sliven - Varna - Sofia - Sliven one, I might throw in some Continenal GP 4000 SII tyres to save weight.They are around 280 grams per tyre, and the Voyager Hyper are about 400g per tyre.


If DT rims are that much less expensive on your side of the pond, I would have considered the R460. I am a firm believer on wider tires for the long rides on poor tarmac so I would stay with the 35mm Hypers. The Conti 4000S II are still only available in 25mm max and not wide enough IMO; the soon to be available 28mm may be ok but, personally, I would not use anything less than 30mm. 
My favorite setup for Rando duty on 700c wheels are the Archetype in 32h laced with 14/15 ga butted spokes and fitted with Challenge Strada Bianca open 30mm tires.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

I have considered the R460 at first, but they do not come with 36 holes.The LBS mechanic owns a couple of bikes with Open Sport and Open Pro wheels, and he claims that those rims are for gentle riding, and not for pothole touring.To give you an idea why do I fear getting lighter rims like the Open Pro, take a look at the photos :

https://s30.postimg.org/itz02oki9/Picture_075.jpg

https://s24.postimg.org/7pihy4yr9/magistrala_trakiq_oseqna_s_10_santimetrovi_dupki.jpg


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Fixt00l said:


> I have considered the R460 at first, but they do not come with 36 holes.The LBS mechanic owns a couple of bikes with Open Sport and Open Pro wheels, and he claims that those rims are for gentle riding, and not for pothole touring.To give you an idea why do I fear getting lighter rims like the Open Pro, take a look at the photo
> ]


The Open Pro is a lightweight rim not suitable for the 32-35 tire widths you are considering so I would not use it regardless of the number of spokes. Additionally, I don't believe combining a lightweight rim with a lot of heavier spokes cures the ills of the lightweight rims. What I have found to work best for me is to keep the rim and spoke strength proportionally relative. I don't consider the DT R460 being in the same league as the Open Pro because of its weight and width.

Lastly, looking at your pics, I don't see anything abnormally out of the ordinary. I believe defensive riding (i.e avoid the pothole if you can and if you can't, unload your weight by standing up on the pedals prior to hitting it) will help your wheel longevity so if it's not already second nature to you, practice so it would be.

At the end of the day you must use what you feel most comfortable with. From where I'm standing I strongly believe the R460 (or a similar weight wide rim like the Dyad) with 32 double butted 14/15ga spokes, properly laced and tensioned and fitted with 30-35mm tires will complement your Audax riding.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Those roads are waaaay better than what I ride on every day in Toronto. You have it good!

Try avoiding, or jumping potholes, and ride "light".


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Kinlin rims seem to be popular for cheap rims, if those are available over there.

I've used the A23 and H+ son rims with good results on my CX bike and at 100kg lace 32f/32r on shimano hubs.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Unfortunately, Kinlin rims are not available, and it made me jealous.As for our roads being way-y-y-y better than Toronto`s roads, it sounds...well...unbelievable.When riding Audax and passing through very small villages, high in the mountains, sometime I have ridden roads as crappy as this one in the photo below.My old De ROSA Planet could only take 25mm tyres, and it was a nightmare, 5 mile downhill through gravel and asphalt leftovers.Sometimes you ride a few miles through potholes only, like this :

https://www.novini.bg/uploads/news_pictures/2013-45/big/globiha-kmetove-zaradi-dupki-op-pytishtata-178928.jpg

https://www.matochina.hit.bg/stylbitete.jpg


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Many thans to all of you ! A little update...I found a great deal on some french rims, 622 x 19, double-wall.Mach1 210 is the model, I weighted each at 570 gramms.Paired with my old, 9-speed Campagnolo Chorus hubs with 36 holes...The front wheel was built with 2x crossing spokes, and the rear - 3x crossing.Total weight is a hefty 2, 16 kg, but the total price of the rims, spokes and labour was incredibly low -less than 60 US dollars.So, how good is that, and is 2160 grams overly heavy for Audax riding? I average at about 22 km/h at my previous wheelset on a relatively flat terrain, that was 1760 grams.I bought some Vittoria Voyager Hyper foldong tyres, 700 x 34 mm measured, and 405 grams per tyre.I will use the cross bike for Audax riding.Somet sections on nasty asphalt, like this :


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

We have covered the weight of the rim in post #6.

You could do Audax on a wooden cartwheel; whether or not you would want to do that is another story.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

It may depend on what else you may want to do on that bike later, like any plans for touring? If not touring than all the wheels mentioned will work great but if you decide to do some touring you may want to consider getting a wheelset now for that occasion. The strongest rim for the money is the Velocity Chukker followed by the Velocity Dyad, these have 32, 36, 40 and even 48 holes but a 48 is an overkill, but if you intend on doing any real heavy type of touring than 40 is the safest route to go, you can even mix them with 36 in the front and 40 in the rear, or if not touring go with 32 front and 36 rear.

Then simply have it laced with DT Competition spokes and brass nipps.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks ! My bike has no rack mounts / eyletts, so no loaded touring for me. Most racks for this type of bike are utterly expensive, and I do not trust them.The only touring will be Audax riding.In a few years, after serious training, I want to try the 1001 mile challenge in Italia, this is the most serious thing I want to do.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Fixt00l said:


> Thanks ! My bike has no rack mounts / eyletts, so no loaded touring for me. Most racks for this type of bike are utterly expensive, and I do not trust them.The only touring will be Audax riding.In a few years, after serious training, I want to try the 1001 mile challenge in Italia, this is the most serious thing I want to do.


A little update - I scored an incredible deal with free shipping on MACH1 210 rims, 700 x 19, so I can mount eveb MTB tyres, if I wanted to.Put together @ Chorus 36H hubs, the whole wheelset weights at 2140 grams, without skewers.I bought the rims ridiculously cheap, something like $ 15 per piece.But isn`t 2140 grams too heavy for long distance Audax, 400 km and more ?


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Fixt00l said:


> But isn`t 2140 grams too heavy for long distance Audax, 400 km and more ?


No

:thumbsup:


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

My previous wheelset with the same ghubs was 1760 grams, roughly the weight of a Fulcrum Racing 5.And still had trouble to finish a 200 mile randonee event in 18 hours.Damn...I am slow and must HTFU...Would it be worth it to buy some lighter rims, something like to lose 300 grams from my current wheelset, but I have to pay over $ 100 for that ? If riding really long Audax ?


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Fixt00l said:


> My previous wheelset with the same ghubs was 1760 grams, roughly the weight of a Fulcrum Racing 5.And still had trouble to finish a 200 mile randonee event in 18 hours.Damn...I am slow and must HTFU...Would it be worth it to buy some lighter rims, something like to lose 300 grams from my current wheelset, but I have to pay over $ 100 for that ? If riding really long Audax ?


Heavier rims are only a "drag" when accelerating or climbing. For long distance riding, you're pretty much riding the same pace for a really long time. The plus side, heavier wheels carry momentum better than light wheels. They also have a higher giroscopic effect making the bike more stable, slightly, but that means it's a little harder to turn the wheel because you're fighting it's torque (if I remember my freshman physics course correctly).

Heavier wheels are also generally sturdy wheels. A light wheel won't do you any darn good if it doesn't survive the trip.

Most of the effort you put into the ride is fighting the aerodynamic drag of you. Consider some touring style aero bar extensions.

Here's a nice looking setup I found on google, looks to be more loaded for something like a weekend tour than an audaux/brevet.
http://api.ning.com/files/jEeTvJLE1...Oj3B7c5aencAysnqR6oBTup*Lt-4jUz-/IMG_1365.JPG

Wheels I had built up for myself for a similar function were in the 2300 gram range (I way 100 kg). They were a custom built set of velocity atlas wheels. 
https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net...=b3735307011686f5501ad2bd5b828cda&oe=5521E6EB


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Thank you, sir.You all are so helpful in this forum, that makes me feel somewhat guilty - I believe I owe all of you a pack of beers :blush2: The setup in the photo looks excellent, but I never manage to find a handlebar, and a seatpost bag at decent prices in Europe.My Guerciotti Cross Force frame with drop bars has no rack mounts...On second thought, I dream of riding world`s toughest 1200 km brevet, the Bulgarian SVS.Quite crappy roads, 40C in daytime, cold at night, and some 14460M dénivelé...Or worse - 600 km with 11130M.Vittoria Voyager Hyper folding tyres for comfort, 32 or 35C, so this is what I wondered - isn`t 2160 too heavy for such long distances with often climbing ? Maybe fork out the cash for Campagnolo Zonda ? I very much want your expert advices.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Wheel durability trumps wheel weight every time for something of that distance, especially something that's unsupported as most audax type events are.

If you dream of doing a crazy hard brevet I would do a few shorter ones first, see what you like and don't like for the bike setup, and go from there. You definitely don't need to get it all right the first time, you just need to finish :thumbsup:


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

You are so right, sir.I have seen people finish the brevet 2-3 hours before I do, with ridiculous, very old, heavy bikes, sometimes $ 300 MTB ones.I had a sub-9 kg De Rosa with Campagnolo Chorus...and I was able to finish 310 km /1800m denivelee in 18 hours - this is my best achievement so far.I see you are a CX`er.I bought a brand new Guerciotti Cross Force alu frame with CF fork for ridiculous price, something like $ 500 shipped, with 2 cosmetic scratched.I have read that a CX bike offer a more upright riding position, wider tyres like the 400 gram heavy 700 x 35C Vittoria Voyager Hyper, folding version.I bought 3 pairs on sale - I am always after ridiculously good sales.BUT some people say a CX bike would make me hunched over...bend...etc. for Audax brevets.What would you say ?


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Awe, come on, Fixt001: this considered a smooth road where I live (southern Belgium/Northern France).

What the heck are you complaining about :thumbsup:


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, I have visited Paris in Northern France for a few weeks, and Gap in Southern France.I never saw a single hole on the road...I thought more advanced countries in Western Europe like Belgium and France had silky - smooth roads...When riding Audax in Bulgaria, especially hilly ones, you occasionaly get something like XC riding on asphalt, lol...I even bought 700 x 38C folding tyres.Did I go too wide for roads like this ?


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Fixt00l said:


> You are so right, sir.I have seen people finish the brevet 2-3 hours before I do, with ridiculous, very old, heavy bikes, sometimes $ 300 MTB ones.I had a sub-9 kg De Rosa with Campagnolo Chorus...and I was able to finish 310 km /1800m denivelee in 18 hours - this is my best achievement so far.I see you are a CX`er.I bought a brand new Guerciotti Cross Force alu frame with CF fork for ridiculous price, something like $ 500 shipped, with 2 cosmetic scratched.I have read that a CX bike offer a more upright riding position, wider tyres like the 400 gram heavy 700 x 35C Vittoria Voyager Hyper, folding version.I bought 3 pairs on sale - I am always after ridiculously good sales.BUT some people say a CX bike would make me hunched over...bend...etc. for Audax brevets.What would you say ?


As far as using a Cx bike, the "type" of CX bike is really important here since there have been a lot of sub-genre splitting recently, just like there are a ton of styles of road bikes or at least the additional naming conventions. 

A race oriented CX bike CAN make you hunched over more but doesn't have to. I've got to think that for brevets, you're looking for a saddle -bar drop of about level so it should be pretty easy to achieve that with any of them. With a race oriented CX bike will generally have a smaller headtube though meaning you would want more headset spacers. They're also going to be a little twitchier in the front end since they're intended to navigate a CX course which has a lot of turns.

A crossbike intended for utility use, many steel CX bikes fall into this category, will generally have a more plush designed geometry which I think would be perfect for Brevet riding. An example would be a Surly crosscheck which has been used for touring b a good number of people. I personally built up an all-city space horse when I was planning to do more brevet type riding before I caught the racing bug and gave up that idea to focus on training for races.

Basically, it's all about how you set the bike up and what is comfortable for you. I personally can't stand too upright of a position as it kills my rear end, as I found out with my initial setup on the space horse when I had it. It was just too much pressure on the butt and I was used to it being more split between the upper body, butt/crotch, and core.

The twitchy handling is what I would worry about the most if the bike is a true cross racer type. After a dozen hours or so it might feel like you're fighting it a lot more, especially if you're dealing with cross winds or bumpier terrain that forces you to correct your steering a lot.

I have read of plenty of riders completing brevets on regular road bikes without too much issue. Probably not ideal but... ride what you brung, as they say. I have a friend that rides an endurance type road bike without any problems for a 24hr endurance road event. They don't have to carry much on the bike since they just do a lot of laps so they have a pit area but they still ride the bike for a really long time without much stopping. 

With most things, I would recommend riding what you have and seeing what you do and don't like about it so if/when you get a new one you can really dial in the requirements and get a more "perfect" choice for the job.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

This is a very good answer, sir.It will be very informative to anyone who reads this thread.I am now worried about the handling, as the frameset still awaits funds, since last year.I know it is a standart geometry one, and I did some measurements :

Chainstays = 42 cm

Center - to - center top tube and c-t-c seat tube : Both measure 54.5 cm

Headtube measures 15.5 cm. What do you think ? Will it be twitchy and make me tired when Audax riding ?


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Fixt00l said:


> This is a very good answer, sir.It will be very informative to anyone who reads this thread.I am now worried about the handling, as the frameset still awaits funds, since last year.I know it is a standart geometry one, and I did some measurements :
> 
> Chainstays = 42 cm
> 
> ...


Headtube angle and seattube angle? Generally, the larger the headtube angle number the more twitchy it will feel.

Based on the picture, it looks like it would be fine. It will still be less twitchy on pavement than a road racer. I think CX race bikes are right around endurance road type bikes for the headtube angle meaning they're a little slower steering the a road racer but not much.

The chainstay length suggests more of a CX race geometry, as would the carbon fork. 425mm is what race CX bikes use, 430-435mm is the more utilitarian type (though the surly crosscheck is 425mm). Still, I would think it will be fine to ride as CX bikes are incredible versatile, though maybe not ideal for the really long brevets you plan to do down the road.

The "square" seat tube and top tube measurement (same lengths) should be a good sign though, I always like seeing that for a neutral handling bike. I see that on many steel bikes.

The headtube is a decent length, not as short as a racer type and not as long as a "gravel road" bike.

I think the bike is an in-between of a race type and utilitarian type, so kind of an all-purpose design. It should be a good compromise of things to be relaxed but efficient/aero/aggressive for brevet depending on how you fit it. Maybe an extra couple headset spacers and it should be good.

The short chainstay most likely means it won't handle heavier loaded panniers well, at least that's been my experience using cross bikes for commuting or transporting things around with my old bike. Without rack mounts, probably not a great idea anyway to put much weight on the rear triangle if you rig up clamps to do a rear rack.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

With each answer, you keep helping me discover new things about my bike.I found a document about the geometry in German language.I am not sure if my frame is 54 or 55, If it is correct, for Guerciotti Cross Force and Kangaroo - the document says the following about size 55:

Sitzrohr M-O : 59

Sitzrohr : 73,45

Steuerrohr : 73,3 ( *and 73 for size 54, should I be worried ?* )

By the way, I am not a navite English speaker, so I have no idea what does " twitchy " handling mean...

And, since you say so, no rear rack for me.The frame has no mounts, but I would not bother clamping one, since their prices are always skyrocketing.How about something like this ? A guy in town sells his bag and seatpost rack for $ 50.

Topeak® Cycling Accessories ? Products - MTX TrunkBag DX

Topeak® Cycling Accessories ? Products - MTX BeamRack EX


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Fixt00l said:


> With each answer, you keep helping me discover new things about my bike.I found a document about the geometry in German language.I am not sure if my frame is 54 or 55, If it is correct, for Guerciotti Cross Force and Kangaroo - the document says the following about size 55:
> 
> Sitzrohr M-O : 59
> 
> ...


The topeak setup is pretty solid as long as you don't use a weight weenie seatpost. My local shop sells a fair amount of those setups to commuters because it's really easy for the end user to put on and take off. You can't load them with a lot of weight but they're great for small things or carrying lunch for work or a picnic or whatever.

"twitchy" would mean with little input to the handle bars, the bike wants to steer quickly; basically the opposite of stable. "Fast steering" is another term I've heard used. If you think of it like running over a stone or into a pot hole, a "twitchy" handling bike will be re-driected quite easily by the hole or rock. A "stable" bike will either go over it with little input to the handlebars or it will react slower so that you are less likely to be caught off guard. Mountain bikes are considerably more stable than road bikes, as an example. The front wheel of the mountain bike points forward much easier than than the road bike when you start getting into things that want to adjust your line. Gravel roads are a place where this becomes very obvious because you can ride it with either and there's always small amounts of input that wants to redirect your front wheel.

I hope that helps explain it.

About the numbers, I had some help from google translate and I'm not sure what the top one actually represents as a 59cm seat tube on a bike at that size would not make sense to me. The 2nd and 3rd numbers appear to be the angles of the seat tube and head tube. Based on that information, I would say you have a road bike with a longer chainstay. So it will be on the faster end for front end steering. My road race bike has a 73.2 degree front, CX race bike has 72.5, and my all-city space horse that I would have used for brevets had a 72.2 degree. I ride a different size bike than you which will account for some variation but it would seem with the numbers that the bike is kind of a race geometry with a taller headtube.

Big tires should negate a lot of the loss of stability, something that should be taken into account as well. It does seem like you'll have a nimble bike overall though, as opposed to the more stable ride some prefer for longer ride distances.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

For comparison, here's the bike I thought would be about perfect for what you're looking to use the bike for after a lot of research on bike frames available in the US, without going custom.

Space Horse | All-City Cycles


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, I guess I now have an idea of what I got.I am not a serious tourer, so loaded bike, panniers, etc is out of the question.I occasionaly ride Audax, a couple of times per year, and that is all.So, I will get the Topeak and keep hoping that I would not hit it when pedalling.
I still have no idea what those angles mean.You mention big tyres.I scored an incredible deal at PlanetX, and the Vittoria Voyager Hyper 700x35C comes at 410 grams.The 38C comes at 460 grams.Will that negate a loss of stability ? You say this should be taken into account.What steering should I expect from this setup ? Unstable, easy to fall from the bike, difficult cornering ? I am quite confused.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

I should corner very well.

Wider tires, to me, are anything over 25mm. The wider contact patch of the wider tires gives you more side to side stability.

I think you'll have a nice setup for training an things. It wouldn't be my first choice for an all-day type bike but you can do it fine. I've ridden plenty of 100 mile days on my road race bike, though you can feel a little sore by the end from the more aggressive fit and not being used to being in it for so long.

The bike won't be easy to fall from, just less stable than a more relaxed front end. It won't be unstable.

I like vittoria's tire. I don't have experience with the voyager but I really liked the randonneur tire in 32mm, I think the voyager is a similar thing as the randonneur was a tire I rode a few years ago before I started riding exclusively maxxis tires. I think the 35mm tire would be plenty for your uses and still allow room for fenders and such. Most cross frames allow up to 35mm tires but can start getting close on tire clearance if you go too much over that.

C = mm in tire speak so a 35c tire is a 35mm wide tire if sized accurately.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

bikerector, 

Speaking of cross frames, boy it sure does get deflating in your older age when you see some of the youngin's (on the road, group rides) come flying by you on their cross machines, keeping up and sometime ssurpassing the high avg pace of the group. But then I remember, hey, those cross bikes are getting to the point that they are just as road worthy (in terms of performance) as road bikes. At least, that's what I tell my older self. Gawd darn stinking kids: youth is so wasted on the young, lol, I wanna go back....... ;-)


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

A bit light on details but I thought it would be a relevant article for the conversation. The website might have something with better details if you have time to search it.

Touring Aboard a Cyclocross Bike | Adventure Cycling Association


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

I am happy to revive this wonderful thread, but...I have hit a major problem.No LBS would bother assembling my bike ! Someone at PlanetX told me they used to sell Guerciotti frames at low prices, as they have no idea whatsoever - the frames come with no under BB cable guide and no bolts...They sold me a wide one, but it does not fit, as seen in the photos.I have asked at least a dozens shops, and nobody can help me.Now I have expensive parts that took my savings for two years...Does anybody have any idea ?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I can't believe that no LBS can help you with a simple cable guide. Measure the distance between the two holes (center of hole to center) and get a cable guide with those measurements. 

If that fails it's not a big deal to drill a hole or two if necessary into the BB shell to match the cable guide holes. After drilling the holes cover the exposed metal with white paint.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Thank you - after a serious illness, I am back.I am pleased to announce that my Cross Force was finally built today.It rides like a dream, I quite like the handling - I have to use little to no force to make turns, even sharp cornering.Vittoria Voyager Hyper 700 x 38C tyres are a dream on bad roads.An ex-racer has built and fine-tuned my old Campagnolo Chorus 9 speed groupset from 1999, trusty and true, it works...sort of.LBS ruined the fine tuning and...guess what ? Although I warned them a few times to quit trying to sell me shimaNO, they tried again today.
The problem ? My trusty Chorus shifters with pointy hoods lost some springs and broke.I sent them to the UK Campagnolo service center, they were repaired and rebuild - the mechanic told me they are now upgradeable to 10 speed, and also, they have put the new indexing, so I can use post-2000 nine speed rear derailleur.Unfortunately, now my 9 speed year 1998 Chorus rear derailleur does not work well.I found a 2003 Campagnolo Veloce one, it should be Ultra-shift compatible, right ? Should I buy one and try ? This way I can fit a 14-28 cassette.

Campagnolo 2003 Veloce 9 Speed Rear Derailleur for Road Cycling | eBay


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, since I am successfully recovering after some quite serious orthopedic problems that lastet for years, I am happy to say that I won`t get surgery. I started visiting a renowned fitness coach, changed my life completely - I cook my own, healthy food, I bought dozens of kilograms of protein / amino-acids, and for the first time in my life, I moved out to a very nice place, that was built just 3 years ago. Best of all - it has an awesome, roomy basements. My first thought was - I am buying two more bikes, so a total of 4!!!
Back to this thread, I found some British wheels that come with spare spokes, free shipping to Europe. Since I stocked on 700x38 Vittoria Voyager Hyper tyres, I guess these are the wheels that will help me finish all brevets required for qualification to ride the world`s most famous brever, Paris-Brest-Paris. I am tempted to go for the 28/32 spokes wheelset for increased comfort, and maybe be safety, as roads are unbelievably bad here, they were build in the last century... What are your thoughts on these wheelsets, please? 
https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels/products/hunt-4season-aero-road-wheelset-1589g-28deep-22wide
https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels/products/hunt-race-aero-superdura-road-wheelset-1595g-31deep-24wide


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

So.......you expect to compete in the Paris-Brest-Paris with a cheap $400 wheelset???? Is this a troll post?

Edit: OK, now that I've looked trough previous posts, I now realize that this is an 'ongoing troll post'. My bad. Sorry for breaking into your comedy routine....


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fixt00l said:


> Well, since I am successfully recovering after some quite serious orthopedic problems that lastet for years, I am happy to say that I won`t get surgery. I started visiting a renowned fitness coach, changed my life completely - I cook my own, healthy food, I bought dozens of kilograms of protein / amino-acids, and for the first time in my life, I moved out to a very nice place, that was built just 3 years ago. Best of all - it has an awesome, roomy basements. My first thought was - I am buying two more bikes, so a total of 4!!!
> Back to this thread, I found some British wheels that come with spare spokes, free shipping to Europe. Since I stocked on 700x38 Vittoria Voyager Hyper tyres, I guess these are the wheels that will help me finish all brevets required for qualification to ride the world`s most famous brever, Paris-Brest-Paris. I am tempted to go for the 28/32 spokes wheelset for increased comfort, and maybe be safety, as roads are unbelievably bad here, they were build in the last century... What are your thoughts on these wheelsets, please?
> https://www.huntbikewheels.com/coll...season-aero-road-wheelset-1589g-28deep-22wide
> https://www.huntbikewheels.com/coll...o-superdura-road-wheelset-1595g-31deep-24wide


My first question is how much do you weigh now? Unless you are feather light, my gut feeling is to steer away from an aero wheel that weighs under 1600g. Something has to be compromised somewhere. Whether it's the rims or hubs, I can't imagine you will get longevity out of this wheelset. It's up to you whether you think it's worth taking a $422 chance. If you're going for one of these, I would choose the less aero version.

I still think a build with the DT R460's are probably your best bang for the buck. They have an internal width of 18mm which will work fine for your tires of choice.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Lombard said:


> My first question is how much do you weigh now? Unless you are feather light, my gut feeling is to steer away from an aero wheel that weighs under 1600g. Something has to be compromised somewhere. Whether it's the rims or hubs, I can't imagine you will get longevity out of this wheelset. It's up to you whether you think it's worth taking a $422 chance. If you're going for one of these, I would choose the less aero version.
> 
> I still think a build with the DT R460's are probably your best bang for the buck. They have an internal width of 18mm which will work fine for your tires of choice.


Thanks, Mr. Lombard. I currently weight 86 kg, I visit the gym 2-3 times a week and try my best to get a healthy diet, I spent over $ 1 000 on proteins and amino-acids, so I guess I can get to 80 kg in a few months. I am 179 cm tall, and my current wheelset is built on Campagnolo Record - silver hubs, the ones with a hole for oiling. Using the cheapest Mach 1 210 19mm rims, it weights 2160gr, with 36 spokes. Each rim is 530gr. Some people told me this is enough for Audax and touring, as it is reliable and tough (I rode it for at least 1 000 km total for 2 years, when I was 98 kg, with a 15 kg load). Running a Chorus 2x9 setup, that will soon be upgraded to 2x10 by Graeme, so I could run the 13-29. Now I am running a 13-26, with a 34-46 compact carbon crankset (596 gr). Total bike weight, including pedals and a bracketed handlebar bag, is a little less than 11kg. Since I am not a light rider, I was thinking of buying the 32 spokes one, as the seller claims a 130kg rider has tested it...But, nevertheless, it is not a cheap wheelset and I will have to save money for a few months. On the other hand, why not, one has to spend his money somewhere.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fixt00l said:


> Thanks, Mr. Lombard. I currently weight 86 kg, I visit the gym 2-3 times a week and try my best to get a healthy diet, I spent over $ 1 000 on proteins and amino-acids, so I guess I can get to 80 kg in a few months. I am 179 cm tall, and my current wheelset is built on Campagnolo Record - silver hubs, the ones with a hole for oiling. Using the cheapest Mach 1 210 19mm rims, it weights 2160gr, with 36 spokes. Each rim is 530gr. Some people told me this is enough for Audax and touring, as it is reliable and tough (I rode it for at least 1 000 km total for 2 years, when I was 98 kg, with a 15 kg load). Running a Chorus 2x9 setup, that will soon be upgraded to 2x10 by Graeme, so I could run the 13-29. Now I am running a 13-26, with a 34-46 compact carbon crankset (596 gr). Total bike weight, including pedals and a bracketed handlebar bag, is a little less than 11kg. Since I am not a light rider, I was thinking of buying the 32 spokes one, as the seller claims a 130kg rider has tested it...But, nevertheless, it is not a cheap wheelset and I will have to save money for a few months. On the other hand, why not, one has to spend his money somewhere.


Depending on how much torque you put to the pedals, the aluminum freehub body could be a problem. In time, your cassette will gouge the soft aluminum freehub. If you need a bike mechanic to separate your cassette from your freehub, be sure to tip him well as there will be lots of cursing while he's trying to separate them.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

So, what is your advice, what would I do? Having ridden more than 10 000 miles with these hubs and the same cassette, no problems at all...


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Just disregard Lombard.

There is no problem with gouging on Campy freehubs.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Mackers said:


> Just disregard Lombard.
> 
> *There is no problem with gouging on Campy freehubs*.


This.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mackers said:


> Just disregard Lombard.
> 
> There is no problem with gouging on Campy freehubs.


None ever? Do they have anti-bite splines? If so, I stand corrected. If not, then this could easily happen with a stronger or heavier rider.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

You really don't know what you're talking about.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Mackers said:


> You really don't know what you're talking about.


Not to put too fine of a point on it.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mackers said:


> You really don't know what you're talking about.


Seriously now, if you have a valid point to back up your argument, I may defer to your judgment. However, if all you have to say is "you don't know what you are talking about", then you're just an empty windbag not worth listening to.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Seriously now, if you have a valid point to back up your argument, I may defer to your judgment. However, if all you have to say is "you don't know what you are talking about", then you're just an empty windbag not worth listening to.


Besides your say so, do you have any statistics to back up your assumption about gouging Campagnolo free hubs?


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Most his remarks are based on second hand info. Mike T said this, My LBS recommends that, etc. Very little real life personal experience. But he does post a lot.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

velodog said:


> Besides your say so, do you have any statistics to back up your assumption about gouging Campagnolo free hubs?


Campagnolo free hubs specifically, no. Aluminum freehubs in general, yes. I am not bashing Campagnolo. I mearly mentioned that Campagnolo freehubs are aluminum and therefore prone to cassette gouging. I then acknowleged that I could be wrong and asked if they have steel splines which is a solution to alloy freehub gouging. Is this the case or did I simply commit sacrilege against the almighty Campagnolo god.

In the immortal words of Ross Perot, I'm all ears.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

I do appreciate the comments - since I have not had any problems in 10 000 miles, I`d say the older Record hubs are reliable. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of a Hunt wheelsets for my needs, as the Hunt wheels are the best bang for the buck I found in Europe, and I compared a lot of sellers. Since I am a comfort freak, I fear that anything less than 32H will be a torture... But hey, 500g weight savings in the wheels is about 2kg total loss of weight in the bike, that is tempting.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fixt00l said:


> I do appreciate the comments - since I have not had any problems in 10 000 miles, I`d say the older Record hubs are reliable. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of a Hunt wheelsets for my needs, as the Hunt wheels are the best bang for the buck I found in Europe, and I compared a lot of sellers. Since I am a comfort freak, I fear that anything less than 32H will be a torture... But hey, 500g weight savings in the wheels is about 2kg total loss of weight in the bike, that is tempting.


What does spoke count have to do with comfort. Or are you talking figuratively?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> *Campagnolo free hubs specifically, no*. Aluminum freehubs in general, yes. I am not bashing Campagnolo. I mearly mentioned that Record freehubs are aluminum and therefore prone to cassette gouging. I than acknowleged that I could be wrong and asked if they have steel splines which is a solution to alloy freehub gouging. Is this the case *or did I simply commit sacrilege against the almighty Campagnolo god.
> 
> *In the immortal words of Ross Perot, I'm all ears.


I wouldn't call your statements sacrilege, I would call them assumptions based on other makers products. Or should I say "baseless assumptions"?


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, I believe more spokes means more comfort, and increased realiability. Some of the most experienced Audax riders claim that with 32-36 spokes, one can finish the Audax with 1-2 broken spokes, not so with the 24 spoke wheels. Since I have had broken both wrists and the right leg too, I am quite sensitive comfort-wise, unfortunately. One hybrid bike came with 28H wheels, and 35mm tyres. It was quick and lively, but the comfort was bad. I replaced the wheels with 36H, wider rims and 38C tyres...and the difference was quite noticeable. I am sorry that I am an isolated case and I want to make the best out of my bikes in terms of comfort and value - I know many riders can ride faster than me on any bike and any wheelset, without caring for the comfort, but I am not one of them.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

velodog said:


> I wouldn't call your statements sacrilege, I would call them assumptions based on other makers products. Or should I say "baseless assumptions"?


So tell me, what does Campagnolo do to prevent cassette gouging that other aluminum freehubs don't have. Enlighten me.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fixt00l said:


> Well, I believe more spokes means more comfort, and increased realiability. Some of the most experienced Audax riders claim that with 32-36 spokes, one can finish the Audax with 1-2 broken spokes, not so with the 24 spoke wheels. Since I have had broken both wrists and the right leg too, I am quite sensitive comfort-wise, unfortunately. One hybrid bike came with 28H wheels, and 35mm tyres. It was quick and lively, but the comfort was bad. I replaced the wheels with 36H, wider rims and 38C tyres...and the difference was quite noticeable. I am sorry that I am an isolated case and I want to make the best out of my bikes in terms of comfort and value - I know many riders can ride faster than me on any bike and any wheelset, without caring for the comfort, but I am not one of them.


The improvement in comfort had more to do with the tires than wheels.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fixt00l said:


> Well, I believe more spokes means more comfort, and increased realiability. Some of the most experienced Audax riders claim that with 32-36 spokes, one can finish the Audax with 1-2 broken spokes, not so with the 24 spoke wheels. Since I have had broken both wrists and the right leg too, I am quite sensitive comfort-wise, unfortunately. One hybrid bike came with 28H wheels, and 35mm tyres. It was quick and lively, but the comfort was bad. I replaced the wheels with 36H, wider rims and 38C tyres...and the difference was quite noticeable. I am sorry that I am an isolated case and I want to make the best out of my bikes in terms of comfort and value - I know many riders can ride faster than me on any bike and any wheelset, without caring for the comfort, but I am not one of them.


Comfort wise, your tires are the biggest players. All else makes a negligible difference. It was the wider tires you found more comfortable. And the wider the tires are, the less pressure you will need, so more comfort.

More spokes do generally make a more reliable wheel, but on a rim brake bike, the front needs fewer spokes than the rear in order to be reliable. Spokes seldom, if ever, break on a front wheel as there are no twisting forces there. 

I build my rim brake wheelsets 24H front and 32H rear. Could I get away with less? My take is why chance it for negligible weight savings. Some commercial road wheels are actually built 16/20 which doesn't make a lot of sense since for a 16 or 20 spoke wheel to be reliable, the rim must be heavier. But hey, people think 16 spoke radial wheels are sexy. And remember, sex sells!

I should mention that I did break a spoke on a 24 spoke rear wheel during a ride. I was able to adjust other spokes to finish the ride which was 30 more miles, though I was very careful.


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

I respectfully disagree it was the tyres. On the same bike, after I put the newer wheelset, I tried riding with the same Voyager Hyper tyres - first in 700x35, and then, in 700x38c. The difference in comfort was significantly smaller, than the one with the 28H wheelset. But anyway...how about that Hunt wheelset? So you all think that it won`t be less comfortable than my current 36H wheelset, that has basic Mach 1 210 (622x19) rims? The Hunt wheelset is deeper, which suggests a harsher ride.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fixt00l said:


> I respectfully disagree it was the tyres. On the same bike, after I put the newer wheelset, I tried riding with the same Voyager Hyper tyres - first in 700x35, and then, in 700x38c. The difference in comfort was significantly smaller, than the one with the 28H wheelset. But anyway...how about that Hunt wheelset? So you all think that it won`t be less comfortable than my current 36H wheelset, that has basic Mach 1 210 (622x19) rims? The Hunt wheelset is deeper, which suggests a harsher ride.


Hard to believe you can feel the difference. If anything, more spokes will feel stiffer, but to a very small degree. What were the internal dimensions of each of these wheelsets? Wider rims will make the tires effectively wider.

Aero wheels won't make any difference in comfort, but they could be a disadvantage in crosswinds. And if you regularly ride along roads with fast moving trucks, think twice.

I think you already know how I feel about the Hunt wheels. I will let the other Einsteins here chime in since they have already told me I don't know what I am talking about. So they must surely have some good advice for you.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> So.......you expect to compete in the Paris-Brest-Paris with a cheap $400 wheelset???? Is this a troll post?


Why would it be a troll post? 
I'd ride Paris-Brest-Paris on my Campagnolo Zondas without hesitations. And they were only a bit over EUR 400,-


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

To be fair, I had a set of 36h H PLUS SON Archetypes built with 105 hubs by prowheelbuilder.com and they ran just a little over $400. I’d recommend them.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Opus51569 said:


> To be fair, I had a set of 36h H PLUS SON Archetypes built with 105 hubs by prowheelbuilder.com and they ran just a little over $400. I’d recommend them.


I would agree with the H PLUS SON Archetypes paired with 105 hubs. DT R460 rims paired with 105 hubs would also make a great wheelset. Though at 190lbs., unless you are carrying 40+ extra pounds, I think 36H would be overkill. 32H would be fine.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> So tell me, what does Campagnolo do to prevent cassette gouging that other aluminum freehubs don't have. Enlighten me.


Surface area

Lennard Zinn

"_2. Use a Campagnolo freehub body and cassette. The splines are much deeper on Campy freehub bodies, so the pressure is distributed more, and the cogs don’t tend dig into them. If you’re using an 11-speed drivetrain, a Campy wheel is interchangeable with a SRAM or Shimano wheel, generally without derailleur readjustment, because the spacing between cogs is the same with 11-speed cassettes from any of the three brands."

https://www.velonews.com/2016/08/bi...faq-saving-freehubs-aero-is-everywhere_418864

_


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

velodog said:


> Surface area
> 
> Lennard Zinn
> 
> ...


Got it! I learn something new every day.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

If at all possible reuse the hubs you have. From your description I'm guessing you own the steel axle version from the 9 speed era. These are extremely reliable. Have someone clean them, replace the bearing balls and regrease. Then rebuild to rims of your choice.

Shimano 105 hubs, though an incredibly good deal and equally reliable, will not accommodate Campy cassettes, and 10 speed spacing between the two is off enough that I wouldn't want to ride a brevet with compromised shifting.

Depending on your current setup I'd consider trying to find a triple crankset and front derailleur and keep the old wheelset intact. Campy has 50-40-30 triple cranksets.


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