# Schlecks versus Armstrong and Contador



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

THIS IS FREAKING COOL

I am waiting for an eyecball to pop out. TOTAL INTENSITY


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

this is a real pain to follow via the live report at cyclingnews


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Did Armstrong put that block on Wiggins on purpose? He seams to be playing the teammate.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*agreed*



coreyb said:


> this is a real pain to follow via the live report at cyclingnews


NOTE how Wiggins is hanging tough


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Thor was the man today. Hat's off, he earned that Green jersey today!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

jd3 said:


> Did Armstrong put that block on Wiggins on purpose? He seams to be playing the teammate.


He is playing the teammate, but I'm sure he would have stayed with Contador and the Schlecks if possible. Since he got dropped with Wiggins, it makes sense to mark Wiggins to both help Contador and help Astana's attempt to keep more than one podium spot. Now that Wiggins is with him, he is stuck even if he gets his legs back. He can't drag Wiggins back up to the others.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

So if I understand team tactics correctly, since Wiggins is in the second group Lance should be trying to slow them down right? So does Lance potentially lose a podium spot to protect AC from Wiggins?


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*good point*



nate said:


> He is playing the teammate, but I'm sure he would have stayed with Contador and the Schlecks if possible. Since he got dropped with Wiggins, it makes sense to mark Wiggins to both help Contador and help Astana's attempt to keep more than one podium spot. Now that Wiggins is with him, he is stuck even if he gets his legs back. He can't drag Wiggins back up to the others.


AND, we have ANOTHER climb to go


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

bmxhacksaw said:


> So if I understand team tactics correctly, since Wiggins is in the second group Lance should be trying to slow them down right? So does Lance potentially lose a podium spot to protect AC from Wiggins?


That is exactly what is happening. What we don't know is if Lance is doing it because he's playing teammate or that's all he's got. I think we'll see on the last climb.


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## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

LA got stuck with Wiggins. No way he is gonna make that kinda time up without bringing up Wiggins.


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## Snakebit (Mar 18, 2002)

bmxhacksaw said:


> So if I understand team tactics correctly, since Wiggins is in the second group Lance should be trying to slow them down right? So does Lance potentially lose a podium spot to protect AC from Wiggins?


I don't know what Lance has left in the tank but I'm certain that he does. He is completely aware of both where he stands right now and what his goals for the Tour are and what he has to do to realize them. We have another climb today and a Time trial coming up. Lance ustacould TT. ????


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Props up for Vandevelde being a great domestique for Wiggins. He's digging really deep with no egos in the way.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

LA was just going a lot faster than VdV and Wiggins. He backed off and dropped behind them.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*tricky descent*



jd3 said:


> LA was just going a lot faster than VdV and Wiggins. He backed off and dropped behind them.


The last climb should be dry, the descent prior was slick


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

My theory; LA knows he is no longer a Tour winner. A podium finish is not as important to him as keeping Conti in yellow and on Team Nike/Livestrong next year.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*maybe*



jd3 said:


> My theory; LA knows he is no longer a Tour winner. A podium finish is not as important to him as keeping Conti in yellow and on Team Nike/Livestrong next year.


AC does not look happy at the prospect of having to attck on this last climb. The Schlecks are makeing sure he takes it up the pooper today


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

ouch.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Conti attacks


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

Lost Kloden.


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## jldickerson3 (Mar 9, 2006)

What are you talking about that comment makes no sense. Conti has no need to attack the Schleck's he's a better TTer than them both, his two closest competitors that can TT are nearly 2'00" down, and Kloden is already over 2'30" back as it is. He has absolutely no need to do anything but follow andy schleck.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

why did conti attack?


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Omg*



jd3 said:


> Conti attacks


he is waiting for Kloeden. WTF GO MAN GO NOW


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

llama31 said:


> why did conti attack?


Trying to lose the Schlecks...didn't work...and worse yet, lost Kloden.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

He had no reason to lose the Schlecks...he's got a lead and a better TT. Now he's pissed off Kloden. Conti is a good rider but an idiot.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*well*



jldickerson3 said:


> What are you talking about that comment makes no sense. Conti has no need to attack the Schleck's he's a better TTer than them both, his two closest competitors that can TT are nearly 2'00" down, and Kloden is already over 2'30" back as it is. He has absolutely no need to do anything but follow andy schleck.


Well, he just attacked and waitied to see Kloeden get dropped, the he tried to ask the Schlecks to not attack. This is STUPID TACTICS


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## jldickerson3 (Mar 9, 2006)

llama31 said:


> He had no reason to lose the Schlecks...he's got a lead and a better TT. Now he's pissed off Kloden. Conti is a good rider but an idiot.


Kloden has a descent shot at getting close to rejoining on the downhill. It at least 10 KM to the bottom. But I agree unnecessary move.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

Nice! I wonder if Lance can catch and drag Kloden back up?


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

ttug said:


> he is waiting for Kloeden. WTF GO MAN GO NOW


Yeah, if he wanted to keep Kloden with you, don't attack. If he wanted to attack, don't wait for Kloden.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Armstrong attacks Wiggens and he's dropped him...bridge up to Kloden and they can work together on the descent.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

LA attacking and dropping Wiggins


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Lance!*

Lance is countering...Wiggins cant follow.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

nate said:


> He is playing the teammate, but I'm sure he would have stayed with Contador and the Schlecks if possible. Since he got dropped with Wiggins, it makes sense to mark Wiggins to both help Contador and help Astana's attempt to keep more than one podium spot. Now that Wiggins is with him, he is stuck even if he gets his legs back. He can't drag Wiggins back up to the others.


I would have thought by now that you people would have learned that Armstrong is probably the smartest racer on the road.

You really should never count him out.

No matter what age he is.


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## Snakebit (Mar 18, 2002)

jldickerson3 said:


> Kloden has a descent shot at getting close to rejoining on the downhill. It at least 10 KM to the bottom. But I agree unnecessary move.


Lance is over the top now and riding for himself. We'll see.


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## jpelaston (Jun 8, 2008)

what an attack by armstrong! nice acceleration


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Doesn't LA go downhill way better than Andy?


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

jd3 said:


> Doesn't LA go downhill way better than Andy?


Most people do.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*AC, WTF is your deal*

AC is chatting with the Sclecks....WTF is this MORON DOING???!?!?!?!?

He drops Kloeden, STOPS THE ATTACK THAT DROPPED KLOEDEN and is now chatting with the Schlecks. 

WTF is going on?!?!?


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## Snakebit (Mar 18, 2002)

jd3 said:


> Doesn't LA go downhill way better than Andy?


He's flying now.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

Looks like Treks are pretty good bikes.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Nibali is awesome.. this guy can be a future podium finisher.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

ttug said:


> AC is chatting with the Sclecks....WTF is this MORON DOING???!?!?!?!?
> 
> He drops Kloeden, STOPS THE ATTACK THAT DROPPED KLOEDEN and is now chatting with the Schlecks.
> 
> WTF is going on?!?!?


I'm no expert, but I think Contador is maybe more susceptible to Wiggins on the ITT than Kloeden is. I would imagine he was trying to continue to put time into Wiggins, and he's probably telling the Schlecks the same thing - that they need time on Wiggins to have any chance. Just a theory.

Could also be that Kloeden was supposed go with the attack but couldn't, and that's why AC shut it down so quickly.

I think it's too soon to assume that it wasn't team tactics that backfired because Kloeden couldn't go.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

> AC is chatting with the Sclecks....WTF is this MORON DOING???!?!?!?!?
> 
> He drops Kloeden, STOPS THE ATTACK THAT DROPPED KLOEDEN and is now chatting with the Schlecks.
> 
> WTF is going on?!?!?


I really don't know...maybe he's giving away the stage...maybe he's chatting good investment strategies...maybe he's interviewing for a spot on Saxo next year...


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## jpelaston (Jun 8, 2008)

Contador is a snake.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

contador, thats not thinking with your dipstick


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

im reading conty is losing some space on eth switchbacks. to the schlecks!
was that idiot trying to barter a stage win with teh brothers?

i hope LA catches and helps kloden.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

> I think it's too soon to assume that it wasn't team tactics that backfired because Kloeden couldn't go.


Good point....I guess that's possible


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

CN had it right: if Contador keeps trying to take third wheel, one of the schlecks should block/soft pedal.
im just waiting for that to happen.

and why is he attacking? OMG, i piled on LA for tweating conti had a lot to learn. but jeebus, he was right.


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## AIE (Feb 2, 2004)

ttug said:


> AC is chatting with the Sclecks....WTF is this MORON DOING???!?!?!?!?
> 
> He drops Kloeden, STOPS THE ATTACK THAT DROPPED KLOEDEN and is now chatting with the Schlecks.
> 
> WTF is going on?!?!?


Discussing the stage victory. Give it to Frank.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Unfreaking Real*



Alex-in-Evanston said:


> Discussing the stage victory. Give it to Frank.



HE GAVE THE STAGE AWAY.

THAT ^&&*^&*^*&^ EATING (*(*&#[email protected]#@ RAT &*^&^&*6 ARD

WTF?

AND HE SCREWED HIS MATES OVER. %^$HOLE!!!!!


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## AIE (Feb 2, 2004)

weltyed said:


> CN had it right: if Contador keeps trying to take third wheel, one of the schlecks should block/soft pedal.
> im just waiting for that to happen.
> 
> and why is he attacking? OMG, i piled on LA for tweating conti had a lot to learn. but jeebus, he was right.


The only guys who can take some time out of Contador are Wiggins and Armstrong - in the TT. Contador gave the stage to Frank in return for the Schlecks help in increasing his gap to the TT threats.


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## AIE (Feb 2, 2004)

ttug said:


> HE GAVE THE STAGE AWAY.
> 
> THAT ^&&*^&*^*&^ EATING (*(*&#[email protected]#@ RAT &*^&^&*6 ARD
> 
> ...


He doesn't appear to have any mates, so he's making it up as he goes along. Doing a good job of it, too.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Alex-in-Evanston said:


> The only guys who can take some time out of Contador are Wiggins and Armstrong - in the TT. Contador gave the stage to Frank in return for the Schlecks help in increasing his gap to the TT threats.


Bingo, that's what the talking was about.


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## AIE (Feb 2, 2004)

Frank Schleck now in 3rd place?


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Alex-in-Evanston said:


> The only guys who can take some time out of Contador are Wiggins and Armstrong - in the TT. Contador gave the stage to Frank in return for the Schlecks help in increasing his gap to the TT threats.


That's my guess. Protect the yellow jersey first by continuing to bury Wiggins. No else has a chance to leap over Contador. Why not attack when LA is tied to him like an anchor? The team's goal isn't Kloeden's result.


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

Alex-in-Evanston said:


> The only guys who can take some time out of Contador are Wiggins and Armstrong - in the TT. Contador gave the stage to Frank in return for the Schlecks help in increasing his gap to the TT threats.


I dunno, he did do well in his first TT. I just don't understand why he tried to lose the schlecks were he did. It looked flatter than the previous section and kloden was already dying there. (They did talk for a few seconds but about what?)

I won't assume it was his decision until the interviews.


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## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Is AC that much worse on the ITT than Armstrong or Wiggins that they can make up that much time tommorow? Anycase if thats the case then AC will just make whatever gap back up on Ventoux. This has turned into AC race to win. Everyone else is fighting for second it seems. If LA stayed with the Schlecks and AC I would give him an outside chance for a victory. Not anymore. Maybe premature on my part but thats how it looks to my TDF noob eyes. Wish Popo or Zub marked Wiggins instead of LA.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

OEH is very, very happy. Y'all know why. 

That is all.



Amazing job by all.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Alex-in-Evanston said:


> Frank Schleck now in 3rd place?


Yes, Andy 2ed. It will all change again tomorrow.


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

andy can get 3rd overall i think after tt and ventoux....

tml hopefully andy still top 3 after tt.. frank doubt so,,,

congrats to schleck brothers,amazing performance today


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

Alex-in-Evanston said:


> Frank Schleck now in 3rd place?


Contador
Andy
Frank
Lance
Kloden
Wiggins


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## jpelaston (Jun 8, 2008)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> OEH is very, very happy. Y'all know why.
> 
> That is all.
> 
> ...



OEH, being a LA fan myself, I ask you; did LA checking out on Wiggins give hope for a possible great showing on Ventoux?


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

After putting time into Wiggins today. LA will fight to stay with Andy & Frank on Ventoux.
He may well gain enough time over them in the TT to pass them on GC and hold it on Ventoux.


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## Joemero (Jul 19, 2008)

llama31 said:


> He had no reason to lose the Schlecks...he's got a lead and a better TT. Now he's pissed off Kloden. Conti is a good rider but an idiot.


AGREED!


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

jpelaston said:


> OEH, being a LA fan myself, I ask you; did LA checking out on Wiggins give hope for a possible great showing on Ventoux?


No. He knows his limitations and that's why he waited for the final kilometer of the climb. Stick a fork in it, that possum's done.


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## jldickerson3 (Mar 9, 2006)

Contador's ride was straight gangster. Getting the Schleck's to push was critical as it distances everyone that could overtake him in the TT. Forget Ventoux. He has no business waiting for that stage, when he can take time now, and have somebody else putting in the effort. I think Astana is pretty well lined up for 1,2,3 finish in Paris, or at least 1,2/1,3.

The stage was probably a gift to Frank, and dropping Kloden was probably not the intention of the attack. They were talking before on the stage and Contador kept looking back after his attack. Seemed like he didn't want to drop Kloden.


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## Joemero (Jul 19, 2008)

Twitter: @Levileipheimer "If Andreas finishes 4th in GC by less than 2" from 3rd, we know where he lost it..."

LOL even Levi despises Contador!


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*ditto*



OldEndicottHiway said:


> OEH is very, very happy. Y'all know why.
> 
> That is all.
> 
> ...


I think a green light is now on for Ventoux.....I WONDAH who it is for......


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Alex-in-Evanston said:


> The only guys who can take some time out of Contador are Wiggins and Armstrong - in the TT. Contador gave the stage to Frank in return for the Schlecks help in increasing his gap to the TT threats.


Alex-in-Evanston is one of the few on this thread who understood the tactics today. Some of the rest of the people on here must either be drunk or been watching too much NASCAR.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Snakebitten said:


> Is AC that much worse on the ITT than Armstrong or Wiggins that they can make up that much time tommorow? Anycase if thats the case then AC will just make whatever gap back up on Ventoux. This has turned into AC race to win. Everyone else is fighting for second it seems. If LA stayed with the Schlecks and AC I would give him an outside chance for a victory. Not anymore. Maybe premature on my part but thats how it looks to my TDF noob eyes. Wish Popo or Zub marked Wiggins instead of LA.


Well, I think the thinking is that Wiggins looks strong, and the TT is his strength in this race.

Contador admitted that the attack might have been a mistake in hindsight, considering AK was dropped, but he did say it was meant to continue hitting Wiggins.

It looks very good to me for Astana to be able to put two on the podium (outside shot at 3) as both AK and LA are better time trialers than the Schlecks, and they each need only a minute or two on the Schlecks.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Joemero said:


> Twitter: @Levileipheimer "If Andreas finishes 4th in GC by less than 2" from 3rd, we know where he lost it..."
> 
> LOL even Levi despises Contador!


Lance's buddies despise Contador? Say it ain't so.  

I'm sure Contador really gives a rat's ass because Lance's crew is mad at him.


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## bnoojin (Mar 24, 2002)

weltyed said:


> CN had it right: if Contador keeps trying to take third wheel, one of the schlecks should block/soft pedal.
> im just waiting for that to happen.
> 
> and why is he attacking? OMG, i piled on LA for tweating conti had a lot to learn. but jeebus, he was right.



yeah, I was waiting for the Schleck block/attack from front, but man, the tactics of these guys were so shoddy. they just about ruined the sprint for the line, too. AC probably could've taken the stage if he'd gone for it.

my pet theory is these younger generation of pros are addicted to radios for race tactics and have trouble just reacting to oppotunities.

LA showed tactical supremacy today, older riders (that didn't grow up with radios) just seem to have a much better racing brain.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Wiggins was the real threat. Frank is a horrible time trialist so he has no chance at a podium and Andy isn't much better either.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

toomanybikes said:


> I would have thought by now that you people would have learned that Armstrong is probably the smartest racer on the road.
> 
> You really should never count him out.
> 
> No matter what age he is.


Yes he is a genius, he pulled wiggo for a while then pulled nibali. He is the greatest teammate in the world.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*agreed*



Alex-in-Evanston said:


> He doesn't appear to have any mates, so he's making it up as he goes along. Doing a good job of it, too.


The team dinner table will be silent as they all pass the salt with middle fingers extended.


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## Blue Sugar (Jun 14, 2005)

ttug said:


> AC is chatting with the Sclecks....WTF is this MORON DOING???!?!?!?!?
> 
> He drops Kloeden, STOPS THE ATTACK THAT DROPPED KLOEDEN and is now chatting with the Schlecks.
> 
> WTF is going on?!?!?


You clearly don't understand tactics. They're bargaining for the stage win.


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## Falling Snow (Apr 2, 2008)

rogger said:


> No. He knows his limitations and that's why he waited for the final kilometer of the climb. Stick a fork in it, that possum's done.


The way I saw it, he waited and attacked immediately once the lead riders went across the top of the climb. I would guess there was something of an agreement for him to wait until then after his earlier effort didn't dislodge Wiggins right away. I think LA could have dropped Wiggins and gotten close(r) to the lead group much earlier, but not without giving some time back to Wiggins which the team obviously didn't want. That's why he waited.

It'll be interesting to see where the standings are after tomorrow. And I think LA will be strong, but not at the front, on Ventoux. I think he can make the podium, and if he misses - it will be a very near miss.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*question*



Alex-in-Evanston said:


> The only guys who can take some time out of Contador are Wiggins and Armstrong - in the TT. Contador gave the stage to Frank in return for the Schlecks help in increasing his gap to the TT threats.


If you gift a stage, wont others perceive that as a weakness?

There is one huge mountain stage left.....AND the TT?


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## NextTime (Oct 13, 2007)

Contador played right into the Schleck's hands. Supremely bad tactics being driven by selfish motives. Well done Contador.

Kudos to the Schlecks.

LA was the consummate teammate today.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

Alex-in-Evanston said:


> The only guys who can take some time out of Contador are Wiggins and Armstrong - in the TT. Contador gave the stage to Frank in return for the Schlecks help in increasing his gap to the TT threats.


but the schlecks had numbers. the schlecks needed time gaps, as did conti. contador was gonna have to work in that final break no matter what. 
like CN said, let conti take third wheel and create space. BING! you have your tim gaps and stage win. 

i still dont get why conti attacked when he did, and then waited for kloden to try and catch back on. to me that showed the schlecks that he (conti) was more cooked than he thought. im surprised they didnt get the go-ahead to try and bury him.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Joemero said:


> Twitter: @Levileipheimer "If Andreas finishes 4th in GC by less than 2" from 3rd, we know where he lost it..."
> 
> LOL even Levi despises Contador!


Kloeden came into the Tour with no GC aspirations. If you or Levi honestly believe that the team objective at the top of the climb should have been for Contador to nurse Kloeden along and protect his potential for a podium spot, you might want to think again.

Astana's No. 1 goal is to have the yellow jersey put time into ALL contenders, and Wiggins was a vulnerable contender. The end. Anything beyond that (like an all-Astana podium) is gravy.

Kloeden couldn't go and the Schlecks could. I still fail to see how that's Contador's fault.


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## Blue Sugar (Jun 14, 2005)

NextTime said:


> Contador played right into the Schleck's hands. Supremely bad tactics being driven by selfish motives. Well done Contador.
> 
> Kudos to the Schlecks.
> 
> LA was the consummate teammate today.


Please explain yourself here. Your theory doesn't make any sense to me.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

> Alex-in-Evanston is one of the few on this thread who understood the tactics today. Some of the rest of the people on here must either be drunk or been watching too much NASCAR.


BS! The Schlecks have even more reason to gain time on Wiggins and Armstrong. And if Conti wanted more time on Wiggins and LA, then he should just come to the front and up the pace, that would maybe keep Kloden with him and he'd keep the group together which all needed to gain time on Wiggins & LA. Instead he launched a hard attack, dropping Schlecks and Kloden. It was dumb.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Imo*



jptaylorsg said:


> Kloeden came into the Tour with no GC aspirations. If you or Levi honestly believe that the team objective at the top of the climb should have been for Contador to nurse Kloeden along and protect his potential for a podium spot, you might want to think again.
> 
> Astana's No. 1 goal is to have the yellow jersey put time into ALL contenders, and Wiggins was a vulnerable contender. The end. Anything beyond that (like an all-Astana podium) is gravy.
> 
> Kloeden couldn't go and the Schlecks could. I still fail to see how that's Contador's fault.


Because had he not attacked, he would had Kloeden and would not have had to gift a stage. IMO.


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

earlier on,we can see that frank schleck was trying to force contador to work but contador simply cant,shud be team order not to work as much as he wan to gain more time on the rest...

so frank bargained for stage win in the end...

its a win win situation for both contador and schlecks.. but of course,for astana,its not... kloden and lance lost time to the schlecks...


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

Contador just can't control himself. He's clearly strongest and just likes to stomp on his competitors. Not a bad thing, but sometimes it ain't smart. Everybody in that last group had a reason to keep gaining time on Wiggins and LA. By attacking he almost ruined the opportunity to work together. The fact that the he sat up pretty quickly tells me he just wasn't thinking and JB probably screamed in his ear to ease up.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

jptaylorsg said:


> Kloeden came into the Tour with no GC aspirations. If you or Levi honestly believe that the team objective at the top of the climb should have been for Contador to nurse Kloeden along and protect his potential for a podium spot, you might want to think again.
> 
> Astana's No. 1 goal is to have the yellow jersey put time into ALL contenders, and Wiggins was a vulnerable contender. The end. Anything beyond that (like an all-Astana podium) is gravy.
> 
> Kloeden couldn't go and the Schlecks could. I still fail to see how that's Contador's fault.


This might make sense if Contador had kept attacking.


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

contador earlier said he wanted to pad his time difference against all the other contenders. that attack was to try to create space between him and the schlecks. It failed, and Kloden was a casualty. 

Should AC be scolded for that? No. Just like the Schkecls should not be scolded for pulling contadors ass up that mountain and keeping him "fresh" for the ITT. 

I have lost all respect for Levi and Lance, and the rest of Astana.


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## tecnosabba (Jan 10, 2007)

*LA passing the Schlecks ?*



jd3 said:


> After putting time into Wiggins today. LA will fight to stay with Andy & Frank on Ventoux.
> He may well gain enough time over them in the TT to pass them on GC and hold it on Ventoux.



I do not think so.

He might pass Frank in the ITT, but it might be more difficult with Andy, who's got a decent margin.

The Ventoux is steep, Frank and Andy love steep climbs...I do not think LA will hold their pace, and there will be no descent to gain the time lost.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

ttug said:


> Because had he not attacked, he would had Kloeden and would not have had to gift a stage. IMO.


Possible, but it assumes Kloeden could have hung on, and I have three reasons to believe he couldn't:

1. He didn't
2. He couldn't even keep away from LA when he bridged.
3. He and AC talked just before AC went, and he could have either told him he was going to follow but then couldn't or he told him he was cracked. I doubt the conversation was, "Don't attack, I can't go. F- you, I'm going anyway!"

These are subjective observations, I understand, but that's what opinions are made of.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

What a wonderful stage!

Seeing the GC standings at the end was a true shocker. That's because the announcers really have to do a better job following how the breaks are affecting the GC time gaps.

Kloden was cooked btw. No way he would have hung on to that last climb. The Schlecks did realllly well. They just needed to change the tempo and attack here and there on the last climb.

General classification: 
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 72:27:09 
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:02:26 
3 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:03:25 
4 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:03:55 
5 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:04:44 
6 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:04:53 
7 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0:05:09 
8 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Garmin - Slipstream 0:08:08 
9 Christophe Le Mevel (Fra) Française des Jeux 0:09:19


I wish Lance took off earlier and hooked up with Kloden at the start of the last descent. That would have made a difference.


fc


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## Cogito (Nov 7, 2005)

NextTime said:


> Contador played right into the Schleck's hands. Supremely bad tactics being driven by selfish motives. Well done Contador.
> 
> Kudos to the Schlecks.
> 
> LA was the consummate teammate today.


Agreed.
But... perhaps it wasn't a selfish move as much as a dumb one. He would have been better off with Kloden at the finish for many reasons.
Why wouldn't a former podium finisher have GC aspirations?
I also wonder if the language barrier between Contador and Kloden is a factor.


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## ksanbon (Jul 19, 2008)

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Schlecks
:mad2: :confused5: . Conti


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

coreyb said:


> Yeah, if he wanted to keep Kloden with you, don't attack. If he wanted to attack, don't wait for Kloden.



They clearly talked about a move a few minutes before. I just think Kloden did not have the legs to follow the wheels.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*agreed*



jptaylorsg said:


> Possible, but it assumes Kloeden could have hung on, and I have three reasons to believe he couldn't:
> 
> 1. He didn't
> 2. He couldn't even keep away from LA when he bridged.
> ...


Great observations, all could be valid...however, gifting a stage while wearing yellow, as Lance also did on Ventoux...NOT the way to race, IMO


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

some say he was gifting a stage for all the work schlecks did.. but he seems to be at his limit toward the sprint at the line as well...


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

Sasquatch said:


> contador earlier said he wanted to pad his time difference against all the other contenders. that attack was to try to create space between him and the schlecks. It failed, and Kloden was a casualty.
> 
> Should AC be scolded for that? No. Just like the Schkecls should not be scolded for pulling contadors ass up that mountain and keeping him "fresh" for the ITT.
> 
> I have lost all respect for Levi and Lance, and the rest of Astana.


The attack did not fail!! He had a gap on the Schlecks but he sat up when he saw Kloden was dropped. It made no sense.

Granted, he's put up wiht a ton of BS from Astana and he showed that none of it mattered because he's far stronger than the rest. But he's still dumb.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

nims said:


> It looked flatter than the previous section..



Don't trust the television it is really hard to judge slop from the feeds. 

With the scouting of the rides that goes on these days, it might have pitched up or gotten rougher 100 meters up the road, and it was one of the pre-chosen "good" attack points. Just speculation of course, I don't know why he went in that spot.


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## soup67 (Feb 26, 2004)

Joemero said:


> Twitter: @Levileipheimer "If Andreas finishes 4th in GC by less than 2" from 3rd, we know where he lost it..."
> 
> LOL even Levi despises Contador!


Wouldn't the Schlecks have tried to shed Kloden eventually? I think it was only a matter of time before he was dropped, granted it would have been closer to the top. This doesn't forgive AC's bonehead attack, however.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Kloden and AC were talking before AC's attack. They HAD to attack the Schlecks to try to split them up. Kloden probably didn't have the legs, so AC had to attack. Kloden cracked bad, nobody was going to wait for him.

AC's worry might have been Wiggins, and he needed to put more time into him. 

He let his legs do the talking instead of whining on twitter.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*nope*



Blue Sugar said:


> You clearly don't understand tactics. They're bargaining for the stage win.


The necessity of the stage gift is what I am questioning. Has AC not dropped Kloeden, IMO, we would not be here. No other attacks were initiated that could not be covered. It went from 2 on 2 to 2 to 1.

Bad tactics, IMO.

As to me not getting the tactics, gee, last I recall, to get yellow, you muight want some support, once in a while especially when you have a TT (which if you are AC, could be OK) and Ventoux on the horizon. Its dumb, IMO


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## Cogito (Nov 7, 2005)

Yes Francois, it was a wonderful stage.
I'll concede that Kloden may not have held the wheel anyway but Contador's attack was brief and didn't help him or his team.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

j3fri said:


> some say he was gifting a stage for all the work schlecks did.. but he seems to be at his limit toward the sprint at the line as well...


Are you clairvoyant?


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Cogito said:


> Contador's attack was brief and didn't help him or his team.


Why should he even give a crap about the rest of the team?

The way Contador "helps his team" is by winning the Tour de France. Full stop.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*did he, why*



Spunout said:


> Kloden and AC were talking before AC's attack. They HAD to attack the Schlecks to try to split them up. Kloden probably didn't have the legs, so AC had to attack. Kloden cracked bad, nobody was going to wait for him.
> 
> AC's worry might have been Wiggins, and he needed to put more time into him.
> 
> He let his legs do the talking instead of whining on twitter.


Why did he HAVE TO split them? They were fine, and it would have been even as far as a 2 on 2.

The logic is, you attck, to drop a team mate so you then have to fight it out 2 to 1, and better yet, the 2 are brothers?

Sorry, no soap for me


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*did he, why*



Spunout said:


> Kloden and AC were talking before AC's attack. They HAD to attack the Schlecks to try to split them up. Kloden probably didn't have the legs, so AC had to attack. Kloden cracked bad, nobody was going to wait for him.
> 
> AC's worry might have been Wiggins, and he needed to put more time into him.
> 
> He let his legs do the talking instead of whining on twitter.


Why did he HAVE TO split them? They were fine, and it would have been even as far as a 2 on 2.

The logic is, you attck, to drop a team mate so you then have to fight it out 2 to 1, and better yet, the 2 are brothers?

Sorry, no soap for me


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*did he, why*



Spunout said:


> Kloden and AC were talking before AC's attack. They HAD to attack the Schlecks to try to split them up. Kloden probably didn't have the legs, so AC had to attack. Kloden cracked bad, nobody was going to wait for him.
> 
> AC's worry might have been Wiggins, and he needed to put more time into him.
> 
> He let his legs do the talking instead of whining on twitter.


Why did he HAVE TO split them? They were fine, and it would have been even as far as a 2 on 2.

The logic is, you attck, to drop a team mate so you then have to fight it out 2 to 1, and better yet, the 2 are brothers?

Sorry, no soap for me


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

coreyb said:


> This might make sense if Contador had kept attacking.


As I said, he attacked, and he couldn't shake them. They hung on today. How many times do you want him to attack? He bumped the pace, they hung on, then he let them continue to set the higher pace (as evidenced by the gap to Wiggins and everyone else continuing to increase), and he rode their wheels to the end. Might have ended up a tactical mistake (as Contador suggested after the race), but assuming it was HIS mistake and not the team's is a bit ridiculous without all the facts.


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## Cogito (Nov 7, 2005)

pretender said:


> Why should he even give a crap about the rest of the team?
> 
> The way Contador "helps his team" is by winning the Tour de France. Full stop.


OK. It didn't help him. Full stop.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*you dont race do you*



pretender said:


> Why should he even give a crap about the rest of the team?
> 
> The way Contador "helps his team" is by winning the Tour de France. Full stop.


Sorry the team helps the Yellow Jersey win the race. If you get it backwards, you become very unpopular and its funny when how folks dont help a person in need during a rec when their true colors are how great I am...It does not work.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

ttug said:


> The necessity of the stage gift is what I am questioning.



Ummmmmm, gifts are never "necessary". They are gifts!

With no time bonuses involved it did not hurt AC at all to give the stage to the guy who did most of the work on the day. And it might help out in years to come.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Cogito said:


> OK. It didn't help him. Full stop.


The end result was getting a free ride to the finish line courtesy of his closest rivals the day before a time trial, so it seems to have worked out pretty well for him, I'd say.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

*Those ignorant youngsters!*



bnoojin said:


> my pet theory is these younger generation of pros are addicted to radios for race tactics and have trouble just reacting to oppotunities.
> 
> LA showed tactical supremacy today, older riders (that didn't grow up with radios) just seem to have a much better racing brain.


Only on RBR... Armstrong turned pro (around 1992) just when race radios started gaining momentum... In fact he apparently liked them;

http://bicycling.com/tourdefrance/article/0,6802,s1-7-403-20025-1,00.html


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Alex-in-Evanston said:


> He doesn't appear to have any mates, so he's making it up as he goes along. Doing a good job of it, too.


Finally! Someone gets it. :thumbsup: 
Goodbye Disco/Astana/Bruyneel/Armstrong hello Caisse and a peloton boss his rivals can respect.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Lots of speculation going on....

AC actually spoke about Kloeden after the stage, saying that he asked him if he would come along if he attacked, and then was surprised to find that he couldn't follow. That's why he sat up, that's why he waited.

AC is there to win the Tour, and talk of his tactics being wrong seem to ignore the fact that he is doing exactly that. In a group of 4, your maximum speed is limited by the slowest rider; Klo couldn't make it, so why should AC compromise his position?

He can out climb the Shlecks, he can out TT them too, so he's cool enough with giving them a stage win; makes them ride him in to the finish...


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## Cogito (Nov 7, 2005)

pretender said:


> The end result was getting a free ride to the finish line courtesy of his closest rivals the day before a time trial, so it seems to have worked out pretty well for him, I'd say.


Yes, you have a good point.
Astana shouldn't put all their eggs in one basket yet. Jens said that they could fall prey to bears on Mt Ventoux!


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

*Astana*

Someone please explain to me again how this stage did not work out great for Astana.

They locked up the Yellow jersey - barring something catastrophic happening to AC.

They have two teammates also in position to compete for the podium. These teammates are great time-trialists, and they only trail mediocre to poor time-trialists by 1-2 or so minutes each. LA is in great position to overtake at least Frank tomorrow, and it's not outside the realm of possibility to think that LA and AK can overtake them both.

I will admit that there are a couple of ways it could have gone better, but (in honor of Jens) bears could have attacked the Schleck boys, too. Why ask for perfect, when you already have it much, much better than every other team.

Why all the moaining about tactics?


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

AC is in a great position for tomorrow. He didn't have to take the wind at all on the run in. 

He will grab a few more minutes in the TT. He'll try to push Armstrong or Kloden up Ventoux to gift them the win, not sure how they'll like that though


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## AIE (Feb 2, 2004)

Armstrong drove a broken peloton on Stage 2(?), and put 30 seconds into Contador, on a flat stage.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Ok some people don't understand tactics it seems.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*good point*



dr hoo said:


> Ummmmmm, gifts are never "necessary". They are gifts!
> 
> With no time bonuses involved it did not hurt AC at all to give the stage to the guy who did most of the work on the day. And it might help out in years to come.


Yes, in the years to come it may. But in the here and now......I dont agree.

As to the necessity of the gift, its 2 on one........your attack dropped your team mate and left you alone....yeah......IMO...thats not a great thing


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

ttug said:


> AC is chatting with the Sclecks....WTF is this MORON DOING???!?!?!?!?
> 
> He drops Kloeden, STOPS THE ATTACK THAT DROPPED KLOEDEN and is now chatting with the Schlecks.
> 
> WTF is going on?!?!?


Dude... You are in a rage over nothing. Contador was a PERFECT teammate in reality today.

As much as you can't see it of course.


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## seeborough (Feb 3, 2004)

pretender said:


> The end result was getting a free ride to the finish line courtesy of his closest rivals the day before a time trial, so it seems to have worked out pretty well for him, I'd say.


Except for the fact that he could have had that without dropping his teammate close to out of contention for a podium spot.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*oh, I get it*



MG537 said:


> Finally! Someone gets it. :thumbsup:
> Goodbye Disco/Astana/Bruyneel/Armstrong hello Caisse and a peloton boss his rivals can respect.


So screwing your team over for the win, when you would have the win anyway is a good thing?

Ever hear of Hinault? That went great too.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Spunout said:


> AC is in a great position for tomorrow. He didn't have to take the wind at all on the run in.
> 
> He will grab a few more minutes in the TT. He'll try to push Armstrong or Kloden up Ventoux to gift them the win, not sure how they'll like that though


Yes and I'm sure both Schlecks are just gonna sit there and follow wheels while they watch Contador pull Kloden and Armstrong up the platform to gift them the win.
Furthermore neither Schleck will mind being off or nearly off the podium after the time trial.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

uzziefly said:


> Ok some people don't understand tactics it seems.


It's possible to disagree about such matters.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

ttug said:


> So screwing your team over for the win, when you would have the win anyway is a good thing?
> 
> Ever hear of Hinault? That went great too.


Yes Hinault was nearing the end of his career at that time and his overall record is surpassed by few (I can only think of Merckx off the top of my head).

Contador OTOH, is nowhere near the end of his career. And speaking of being screwed. The man who has won all three grand tours at 25 was being looked over in order to favor a 38 year old coming out of retirement ex-champion? At the same time you have Bruyneel running by Lance's side everytime the latter gets the hiccups.
And please don't use the "all your eggs in one basket" metaphor. Bruyneel as DS won 7 tours doing just that.


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

gh1 said:


> Yes he is a genius, he pulled wiggo for a while then pulled nibali. He is the greatest teammate in the world.


Unless I don't get what you are trying to say, what you just said was totally not what happened today. He tried to get rid of wiggins but wiggins wasn't tired enough yet so he stop going. He could have made the gap but didn't. He didn't pull anyone, hell when nibali reached him, he quit his kamikaze decent. Nibali was getting mad that Lance wasn't helping. Watch the rerun at 8


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

MG537 said:


> Yes Hinault was nearing the end of his career at that time and his overall record is surpassed by few (I can only think of Merckx off the top of my head).
> 
> Contador OTOH, is nowhere near the end of his career. And speaking of being screwed. The man who has won all three grand tours at 25 was being looked over in order to favor a 38 year old coming out of retirement ex-champion? At the same time you have Bruyneel running by Lance's side everytime the latter gets the hiccups.
> And please don't use the "all your eggs in one basket" metaphor. Bruyneel as DS won 7 tours doing just that.


Actually, I haven't hear anyone say that lance was the leader of astana ever. Maybe co-leader and as good as Contador is, you can't deny that lance had a shot (still might have a shot). He won his leader jersey fair and square so now contador is leader and nobody is contesting it. The day contador pull on the yellow jersey, JB said contador wanted to attack before the race and that lance was happy where he was. I don't see JB trying to jersey block contador on this one. His stunt on arcalis was a little foolish because it wasn't yet the time to do it and I don't think he got as much complaint form the other astana folks as the press made it out to be.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

jpelaston said:


> OEH, being a LA fan myself, I ask you; did LA checking out on Wiggins give hope for a possible great showing on Ventoux?



Dunno. 

Contrary to some people here, I'd like to see him do well. And contrary to some people here, I can also wish his nemesis well even though I don't necessarily find him appealing.
I hope LA recovers fully, because if he does then yes, he'll take that mountain. He's getting stronger every day.

As I've said, I just like to see the riders race their best races. Lance did that today. Kloden was also amazing, VdV I know was hoping for better but I thought he was awesome, and I know Wiggins has to be disappointed although again he was a surprise. Nibali in pain but awesome too. Fun to see the Schleck Bros celebrate. Good to see Cont be a good sportsman. 

Although... I will say I heartily enjoyed seeing THOR sticking it to junior today.


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## cogswell23 (Aug 15, 2007)

dr hoo said:


> They clearly talked about a move a few minutes before. I just think Kloden did not have the legs to follow the wheels.


True. Klodi coudn't hang, and the Schlecks neutralized the attack. 

AC didn't attack, then change his mind; his move was countered, and he was hoping Klodi would catch back on, but no go. 

Perhaps the smart thing to do would have been to stick together, or wait for the brothers to attack to counter their move. If that had been the case though, the end result would be essentially the same--Kloeden would not have hung on. He was totally cooked. It still would have been AC versus the bros.

Now clearly, JB was unhappy about the move, but by my way of thinking, I like that AC took the race to the Schlecks rather than waiting for them to go.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

I watched the race and dont need a rerun. If one of Lances teammates would have done what LA did today, he would have kicked them off the Discovery team.

Oops, wrong place


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

nims said:


> Unless I don't get what you are trying to say, what you just said was totally not what happened today. He tried to get rid of wiggins but wiggins wasn't tired enough yet so he stop going. He could have made the gap but didn't. He didn't pull anyone, hell when nibali reached him, he quit his kamikaze decent. Nibali was getting mad that Lance wasn't helping. Watch the rerun at 8


My TV doesnt get the LanceOVision that yours seems to. I saw Lance pulling both of them.

I watched the race and dont need a rerun. If one of Lances teammates would have done what LA did today, he would have kicked them off the Discovery team.


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## wsriii (May 23, 2006)

Go Andy!!!


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