# Alexander Vinokourov



## edwin headwind (Aug 23, 2004)

The guy's just an animal. I mean seriously, look at the people he picked off today on the climb. 
Totally underrated veteran of the sport!


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

Maybe it has something to do with him being the last straw that resulted in Astana getting kicked out of the Tour in 2007?

His racing pedigree is amazing, but he is one of those guys Id rather cheer against than for myself...


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i wouldnt say he is under-rated. getting caught really destroyed his reputation. Now, when you see him go off the front you cant help but wonder...


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

weltyed said:


> i wouldnt say he is under-rated. getting caught really destroyed his reputation. Now, when you see him go off the front you cant help but wonder...


True. I found myself thinking that yesterday. It is great, though, to see a big name do some attacking rather than playing the waiting game.

There's a difference between winning because you have the best time in Paris, and winning because you beat everyone else on the road.


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## dbonbass (May 19, 2009)

I think you might have cursed him by starting this thread.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

: (....


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## serpico7 (Jul 11, 2006)

Opus51569 said:


> True. I found myself thinking that yesterday. It is great, though, to see a big name do some attacking rather than playing the waiting game.


I don't think anyone, including Vino himself, views him as a serious GC contender. So no surprise that he is gunning for stage wins. Also no surprise that the GC contenders are content to let him go.

That said, I've always been a fan because of his aggressiveness.

As for the anti-Vino comments because of doping - oh please, as if everyone at the top isn't doing it.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

*Broken pelvis?*

Just reported that Vino has a broken pelvis, probbably the end of his career.
Not a good way to go out, I'm sorry to see that.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

serpico7 said:


> As for the anti-Vino comments because of doping - oh please, as if everyone at the top isn't doing it.


exactly. I was always surprised at how many cycling fans single out Vino, while getting their head in the sand about the rest of the offenders - including Millar, Basso, Frank Schleck, Contador, Valverde, DiLuca, Scarponi, and according to more recent developments, guys like Armstrong, Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Hincapie and others.

When one cannot appreciate the beauty of Vino's attacking style without thinking "must be drugs", I feel really sorry for them - they might as well give up watching pro cycling races now.


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## mwgash (Jun 27, 2010)

Definitely one of my favorite riders out there, sad to see him go. And WTF was up with that service vehicle that took out a few riders?


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

I def have my reservations about Vino (being a un repentant doper and all) but seeing him go out like that sucks for him and the race.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Just reported that Vino has a broken pelvis, probbably the end of his career.
> Not a good way to go out, I'm sorry to see that.


Head of femur, as it appeared.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Just reported that Vino has a broken pelvis, probbably the end of his career.
> Not a good way to go out, I'm sorry to see that.


Head of a femur, as it appeared.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

He was an animal on the chase in many years of the Tour. Clean or not he raced with heart always. I agree that this is the end for him. A fractured femur is a huge recovery and at his age likely the end. Joseba Beloki was much younger and a broken femur took him from TDF contender to pack filler for a year till he retired.


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## Doctor Who (Feb 22, 2005)

He is one of my favorite riders, despite the doping history, but he paid for that mistake and came back to liven races back up. I am supremely bummed out that he's injured and out of the race. Best of luck to the guy.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I got over his past and was really rooting for him yesterday to get in yellow. His riding style was unique and rare and I enjoyed watching him race.


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## tetter (Jun 28, 2008)

Vino had something special. even when i wasn't that into cycling and was just watching with my dad i felt he was the guy i should root for. when i had really started to get into cycling he was caught doping and i felt like someone took away the dark horse from race. his style was balls to the walls when he attacked and he was un-apologetic about it. he showed that style yesterday and it almost worked once again. even with the doping scandal he has been a great rider and a lot of fun to watch. i hope he heals quickly even if he never competes again.


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## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

tetter said:


> Vino had something special. even when i wasn't that into cycling and was just watching with my dad i felt he was the guy i should root for. when i had really started to get into cycling he was caught doping and i felt like someone took away the dark horse from race. his style was balls to the walls when he attacked and he was un-apologetic about it. he showed that style yesterday and it almost worked once again. even with the doping scandal he has been a great rider and a lot of fun to watch. i hope he heals quickly even if he never competes again.


I totally agree. I did think it was interesting that the whole of Astana stood around and waited for him, even going so far as having him lean on one of them. If that happened to Contador, I could see Saxo glancing over, glancing at each other, and then saying, "Oh, well!" as they pedaled on.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

karatemom said:


> I totally agree. I did think it was interesting that the whole of Astana stood around and waited for him, even going so far as having him lean on one of them. If that happened to Contador, I could see Saxo glancing over, glancing at each other, and then saying, "Oh, well!" as they pedaled on.


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

I wish more TdF riders would race like Vino. Rides with guts and instincts. He's not one to wait around and see what may happen. The Tour will continue be it won't be the say without him.


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## tinman143 (Aug 14, 2009)

mwgash said:


> Definitely one of my favorite riders out there, sad to see him go. And WTF was up with that service vehicle that took out a few riders?


Just saw that wow! Poor Johnny went into the barb wired fence holy ****


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## jwcurry83 (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't wish a crash on anyone but someone has to say it.. karma Vino.. karma.


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## ohvrolla (Aug 2, 2009)

Sux about Vino. You could always count on him to shake things up. Really about all a race needs is Vino and Voeckler in it, that's sure to animate things.


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## TheDon (Feb 3, 2006)

jwcurry83 said:


> I don't wish a crash on anyone but someone has to say it.. karma Vino.. karma.


I don't see how a broken femur is ever deserved.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> I def have my reservations about Vino (being a un repentant doper and all) but seeing him go out like that sucks for him and the race.


Repenting isn't part of the terms of serving a suspension. Moreover, most riders are only sorry they were caught and this hardly means they're legitimately remorseful. There have been a few riders who were sorry, but doped again, too. 

Regardless, Vino animated races and I was looking forward to seeing more of his style of attacks. Hopefully he'll reconsider giving the Tour one more shot since he crashed out this year. 

Doper or not, I wish more riders rode like him.


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## jwcurry83 (Jun 21, 2010)

TheDon said:


> I don't see how a broken femur is ever deserved.


I never said it was deserved, and I will miss watching him in the Tour. That being said... you cheat the Tour, and the Tour will cheat you.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jwcurry83 said:


> I never said it was deserved, and I will miss watching him in the Tour. That being said... you cheat the Tour, and the Tour will cheat you.


Ummmmm, you do realize that a certain amount of cheating has been part of the Tour since day one, right? Otherwise you wouldn't be _educating_ us, right??????


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Vino will be missed. He's been one of my favorite pro cyclists for years. The drug scandal tarnished his reputation quite a bit, but I pretty much assume that all of the top cyclists are dopers.... which is a sad statement about pro cycling in general.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

jwcurry83 said:


> I never said it was deserved, and I will miss watching him in the Tour. That being said... you cheat the Tour, and the Tour will cheat you.


I guess that explains the crash filled tour this year then


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## Dynastar (Jun 8, 2007)

Here is a bit of irony for Vino fans, one myself. I just read an article in one of the bike magazines. According to one DS Vino was such a gifted rider that had the peloton been clean Vino would have definitely won at least one Tour.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*not how*

I wanted to see him end his last TdF and career

but cycling is a cold cruel mistress

heal well Vino, we'll see you behind the wheel I assume


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## Oldguybikingnewb (Jan 25, 2011)

I for one, will miss his constant attacking style of riding. The TdF will be less of a race without him.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

wasn't a fan of Vino and definitely not of Astana, but it's a damn shame to exit your final Tour the way he did.

heal quickly, brah.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

He looked good, but the attack backfired. He got caught by the pack before the line, finished 22nd.

(I had to check online to see his placing on Super Besse, cause the tv coverage skipped it.)

But he wasn't one to just sit on wheels every day. And, he got some tv time. Shame about the crash.


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## jwcurry83 (Jun 21, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Ummmmm, you do realize that a certain amount of cheating has been part of the Tour since day one, right? Otherwise you wouldn't be _educating_ us, right??????


I am not trying to educate anyone... just my opinion. And I do realize that cheating will always be a part of all sports, but that doesn't make it right or accepted. More often than not the cheaters have got their dues over the years, and I expect that to continue.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

mmoose said:


> He looked good, but the attack backfired. He got caught by the pack before the line, finished 22nd.
> 
> (I had to check online to see his placing on Super Besse, cause the tv coverage skipped it.)
> 
> But he wasn't one to just sit on wheels every day. And, he got some tv time. Shame about the crash.


I think most solo attacks are doomed - it is virtually impossible to hold off a hard-charging peloton of 100+ riders, especially if a few teams are interested in pulling the rider back, which is why nobody attacks.

Having said that, Vino had the most amazing track record of success in solo breaks, defying all logic and statistics. I would argue that he indeed *WAS* extremely tactically astute, more so than most of the GC contenders. It doesn't take much tactics knowledge to sit back and follow wheels, but to know when to hit the peloton with a supercharged attack and make it stick takes a lot of tactical wisdom.

I hope Vino reconsiders retirement and comes back for another season. Heck, he is "only" 37. Look at Horner or Voigt.


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## ilmaestro (May 3, 2008)

I hate to think of someone's career being ended by a wreck. I guess that's how it goes sometimes.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Repenting isn't part of the terms of serving a suspension. Moreover, most riders are only sorry they were caught and this hardly means they're legitimately remorseful. There have been a few riders who were sorry, but doped again, too.
> 
> Regardless, Vino animated races and I was looking forward to seeing more of his style of attacks. Hopefully he'll reconsider giving the Tour one more shot since he crashed out this year.
> 
> Doper or not, I wish more riders rode like him.


Nope repenting isn't part of it but it does effect how I view the rider, for instance I think Basso is a total douchbag because basicly expects people to accept his I never doped BS line I don't care if he served his suspention I will never enjoy watching him race even if I agree he served his time and can race.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

jwcurry83 said:


> I am not trying to educate anyone... just my opinion. And I do realize that cheating will always be a part of all sports, but that doesn't make it right or accepted. More often than not the cheaters have got their dues over the years, and I expect that to continue.


it's really sick, or let's say "extreme" to wish physical injury to someone - anyone - for something that:
a) happened long time ago and didn't affect your life in any way 
b) most riders are involved in doping of some sort, apparently
c) difficult or even impossible to assign a "victim" 
d) the rider in question - Vino - has already served 2 year suspension (many never did - see Contador, Frank Schleck)

Let's say Horner or Hoogerland are implicated in a doping scandal - would that make their concussion and barbed wire crash cosmically totally justified, in your mind? Would you gloat if Basso or Millar crashed and broke bones?


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## jwcurry83 (Jun 21, 2010)

55x11 said:


> it's really sick, or let's say "extreme" to wish physical injury to someone - anyone - for something that:
> a) happened long time ago and didn't affect your life in any way
> b) most riders are involved in doping of some sort, apparently
> c) difficult or even impossible to assign a "victim"
> ...


So I guess you are choosing to ignore basically my entire post where I clearly stated that I don't wish a crash on anyone... not to mention my subsequent posts that further clarify the fact that I will miss watching Vino in the remainder of this year's Tour. Well played sir, lol 

I will make things a little clearer so you don't get confused again:

a) I believe in karma; I am pretty sure I am entitled to my own beliefs last time I checked; and as far as I know forums are a place to share said beliefs and opinions. 
b) In no way do I wish harm on anyone.
c) In no way am I gloating about anything, especially someone else getting hurt.
d) In no way is any crash "justified."

Now go ahead and jump to conclusions and insinuate whatever you want from that, you have already done an excellent job of that.


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

Johan Museuww is about the only rider I can think of that successfully came back from a broken femur. Recovery will take months and that is before training can begin. Been through it and don't wish it on anyone. Either a rod and screws will reconnect the femur head or it will be replaced.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*I'll say it...*

I don't miss Schumacher, Rasmussen or Tyler. I won't miss Vino. He was arrogant, unrepentant and spat at the Tour by loading up and destroying the ITT stage with a full body bandage when better riders fell in his wake. It was absurd then and ridiculously unbelievable. His arrogance at being caught continued for years and he was anything but contrite and forthcoming. No I don't miss Ricco or Landis and I won't miss Vino. His arrogance is perhaps only surpassed by Lance. And Armstrong's legacy is already crumbling. Some people will eventually "get it" and will accept their part in the cheating (of themselves, the fans and the event that they participated in). Others will not (i.e., Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Armstrong, Ricco, Vino). The sooner those folks disappear into oblivion, the better off the rest of us will be. Heal up Vino, and vanish from the cycling scene quietly in disgrace.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Nealrab, you took the words out of my mouth. The only thing I admired about Vino is his quads. That's it.


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## Rajdog (Dec 9, 2009)

*... in three, two, one...*

Moved to the "Doping" forum in three, two, one...


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Why did this thread have to go this way? Karma or not, cheating in a bike race doesn't warrant broken bones that will trouble someone for the rest of their life. This sucks for vino and it sucks that this conversation had to degenerate into unnecessary and immature babble irrelevant for the purposes of this thread and misplaced according to the protocol defined by the moderators.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

nealrab said:


> I don't miss Schumacher, Rasmussen or Tyler. I won't miss Vino. He was arrogant, unrepentant and spat at the Tour by loading up and destroying the ITT stage with a full body bandage when better riders fell in his wake. It was absurd then and ridiculously unbelievable. His arrogance at being caught continued for years and he was anything but contrite and forthcoming. No I don't miss Ricco or Landis and I won't miss Vino. His arrogance is perhaps only surpassed by Lance. And Armstrong's legacy is already crumbling. Some people will eventually "get it" and will accept their part in the cheating (of themselves, the fans and the event that they participated in). Others will not (i.e., Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Armstrong, Ricco, Vino). The sooner those folks disappear into oblivion, the better off the rest of us will be. Heal up Vino, and vanish from the cycling scene quietly in disgrace.


Nealrab - seriously? If you are treating professional athletes as your morality and ethics role models, you are just setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*55x11...*

Moral behavior and strength of character are important in all facets of life, be it sports, occupational/professional life or avocational activity. Because one is an athlete does not absolve one from behaving in a morally correct fashion. Those athletes that I choose to watch are not my role models nor do I expect them to act exactly as I do. However, if one is fortunate enough to participate in professional sports of any kind, one should agree to follow some standardized set of rules. If one does not do so, the sporting event deteriorates into chaos and nonsense. To put it simply...either follow the rules that guide your privileged endeavors or FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO!! Vino was one of the bad eggs who refused to take responsibility for his rule breaking after being caught. Yes it was immoral as well, but do not mistake my condemnation of him for some sort of shattered hero worship image of him. I am commenting on his actions, not on him as a hero/standard bearer of moral convictions. Do not confuse the two. I am simply stating that I will not miss him in the pro peloton. Much of this thread was devoted to some kind of sympathy rant for poor poor Vino and his sad ending in the Tour. I am glad he is gone and am glad all the others I mentioned are also gone...for whatever reasons. If you are sad to see him gone, so be it. I am not.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

nealrab said:


> Moral behavior and strength of character are important in all facets of life, be it sports, occupational/professional life or avocational activity. Because one is an athlete does not absolve one from behaving in a morally correct fashion. Those athletes that I choose to watch are not my role models nor do I expect them to act exactly as I do. However, if one is fortunate enough to participate in professional sports of any kind, one should agree to follow some standardized set of rules. If one does not do so, the sporting event deteriorates into chaos and nonsense. To put it simply...either follow the rules that guide your privileged endeavors or FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO!! Vino was one of the bad eggs who refused to take responsibility for his rule breaking after being caught. Yes it was immoral as well, but do not mistake my condemnation of him for some sort of shattered hero worship image of him. I am commenting on his actions, not on him as a hero/standard bearer of moral convictions. Do not confuse the two. I am simply stating that I will not miss him in the pro peloton. Much of this thread was devoted to some kind of sympathy rant for poor poor Vino and his sad ending in the Tour. I am glad he is gone and am glad all the others I mentioned are also gone...for whatever reasons. If you are sad to see him gone, so be it. I am not.


I just think that it is dangerous to have such absolutist viewpoint in a sport where a large fraction of peloton, quite likely majority, is guilty of the same thing as Vino. I am not sure this is because all of them immoral, terrible, evil human beings - nor do I care very much, since it's all entertainment to me - I can enjoy Charlie Sheen on "two and a half men", or rock-n-roll, without worrying too much about moral failures of using drugs and indiscriminate sex.

But we are being philosophical here. I do wonder, however, if you (and others) will have exactly the same feelings towards everyone who may be involved in doping - say, Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Armstrong, and the list may very well include entire pro peloton for all we know, or is it just Vino that is singled out. Somehow I doubt that once, say, Hincapie's testimony becomes public and he decides to retire from pro cycling, you and others will have as much animosity and "good riddance, jerk-hole" and even "I hope you crash, ain't karma a *****" type attitude that I see expressed so often towards Vino.

Maybe it's just me, but there's a huge double-standard in fan attitudes (compare to Basso, Zirbel, Contador, Valverde, DiLuca, Millar, Virenque, Hamilton, etc.).


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Points are well taken...*

and I understand the problems that come with condemning everyone that is guilty of the same thing...You are correct in your assertion that my view is a bit absolute. I would have Millar out of competition. Same with Basso, Valverde, Garzelli, Scarponi, etc. If I were enforcing the rules and regs none would be allowed to compete after a failed test. You know who'd be left...the cream of the crop. Bettini, Gilbert, Chavanel, Cancellara, Hushovd, Leipheimer, Dean, McEwen, Evans, Wiggins, Flecha, Friere and the recent crop of young, clean riders (Garmin boys, Schlecks, Sky). There are tons of honest competitors out there. Those are the riders who should be applauded and viewed with respect and honor. Certainly NOT Vino and those like him who fail to come 100% clean after making a mockery of the races they participated in. We all know how rampant cheating has been in the 90's and 00's. Maybe none of those performances were real. But you must take that into account when evaluating an athlete's accomplishments. I believe Armstrong's performances were tainted just as McGwire's, Bonds' and Sosa's were. None should be honored or rewarded or praised. I wish Vino had not returned at all. The boos that were rained down on him at last year's LBL spoke volumes as to the fans' opinion of him. I second those boos and remain glad he is gone.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I'm not glad he's gone. It's the end of an era. 

No more watching Vino go on suicide attacks and refuse to give up. His do or die attitude will be sorely missed.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

nealrab said:


> and I understand the problems that come with condemning everyone that is guilty of the same thing...You are correct in your assertion that my view is a bit absolute. I would have Millar out of competition. Same with Basso, Valverde, Garzelli, Scarponi, etc. If I were enforcing the rules and regs none would be allowed to compete after a failed test. You know who'd be left...the cream of the crop. Bettini, Gilbert, Chavanel, Cancellara, Hushovd, Leipheimer, Dean, McEwen, Evans, Wiggins, Flecha, Friere and the recent crop of young, clean riders (Garmin boys, Schlecks, Sky). There are tons of honest competitors out there. Those are the riders who should be applauded and viewed with respect and honor. Certainly NOT Vino and those like him who fail to come 100% clean after making a mockery of the races they participated in. We all know how rampant cheating has been in the 90's and 00's. Maybe none of those performances were real. But you must take that into account when evaluating an athlete's accomplishments. I believe Armstrong's performances were tainted just as McGwire's, Bonds' and Sosa's were. None should be honored or rewarded or praised. I wish Vino had not returned at all. The boos that were rained down on him at last year's LBL spoke volumes as to the fans' opinion of him. I second those boos and remain glad he is gone.


The Schlecks?  You do know they were paying Fuentes for training plans... And we all know a gynecologist who dopes athletes on the side is known for his training plans...  And the way Bettini said he would never, ever give his ADN in the fight against doping sure made him look a bit guilty... And Leipheimer, even his old team boss says he was doping...

Your view is a bit absolute yes, but also very subjective IMO.


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> The Schlecks?  You do know they were paying Fuentes for training plans... And we all know a gynecologist who dopes athletes on the side is known for his training plans...  And the way Bettini said he would never, ever give his ADN in the fight against doping sure made him look a bit guilty... And Leipheimer, even his old team boss says he was doping...
> 
> Your view is a bit absolute yes, but also very subjective IMO.


Leipheimer didn't just get accused of doping, he tested positive. See this thread.

There have also been allegations about others on his list.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*OK, not going to the wall...*

on any riders I mentioned, but everyone here gets the drift. Leipheimer "maybe" used, Schlecks have not been shown to be positive for anything or had stored blood bags, but that's not even the point here. There may be guys in the gray area, but none can be remotely compared to Vinokourov in any way. So let's not get off track with the "who may have" or "who may not have" argument. The point is that there are tons of riders today who are "probably" clean (i.e., Gilbert) and there are tons of riders like Vino who have spat on the competitions they participated in. Vino, Landis, Ricco and Virenque are among the worst. Their cheating was blatant and arrogant and their denials made their actions even more abhorrent from an athletic performance perspective. There is simply no place in sports for that kind of arrogant disregard for the rules. Anyone who was happy with Vino's return and win at LBL simply has no respect for sporting rules in competition. Do we want Ben Johnson or Marion Jones or Tyler to compete in another Olympics (forgetting their age for the moment)? 
OK, so everyone on this thread "loves" Vino's attacking style, blah, blah, blah. So we are sad that his cheating style is gone from the peloton. I'd watch and respect 50 Johnny Hoogs in the peloton before I'd want to see 10 seconds of a Vino breakaway. Maybe he was a good rider once (before he morphed into a Telekom tool/cheat) but that may have been for 6 months after his first pro contract. Goodbye to Sinkewitz, Kohl, et al whose legacies may all be tainted just like Vinokourov's. Boy, I sure didn't hear anyone mourn the loss of Ricco from the peloton for his "attacking style" in the mountains. And he had more racing talent in his pinky finger than Vino had in his entire fueled body. Just cause a guy crashes and has to leave a race doesn't mean he deserves accolades and a statue for being an arrogant cheat his entire cycling career. Please, spare me the real (yet misplaced) "hero worship" displayed in this thread. It's nauseating. Really.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

heathb said:


> I'm not glad he's gone. It's the end of an era.
> 
> No more watching Vino go on suicide attacks and refuse to give up. His do or die attitude will be sorely missed.


His 'do or dope' attitude most certainly won't. :thumbsup:


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

sir duke said:


> His 'do or dope' attitude most certainly won't. :thumbsup:


Did xyou understand what you said?


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

al0 said:


> Did xyou understand what you said?


Certainly did, how about xyou?


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

I guess you said just opposite to what you were intended to say 
Your "do or dope" likely to be interpreted that doping hinders performance.


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