# Would you have doped?



## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

Put yourself in the shoes of 19 year old, with loads of potential; circa 1999. You just moved to Europe to pursue your dream of being a pro-cyclist and riding a grand tour. But once you get there you realize that doping is an institutionalized tradition. You either dope or you don't make it, period. Would you have participated in the doping or would you've gone back home to work at your LBS?

I can honestly say, with 100% certainty, that yes, I would have doped. If that's what it took to make it at that time, and everyone around me was doing it, hell yes. Cheek or shoulder doc?

This is why I hate to pass judgement on riders from that time,because in my heart I know I would've done the same thing. Ride to TDF or actually work for a living? That's the most rhetorical question you can ask a 19 year old cyclist.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I don't think you'd get too many real answers here. 

I think the 2nd part of your question should include some assurance that you wouldn't get caught. In that case, most riders would without question.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

I have absolutely no idea. I do know that when I was about that age and my friends were taking stuff, I refused and found new friends. That's the closest parallel I can draw.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Did some more thinking. 19 year old me would have passed because I was an idealist and schmuck. Current me has been walked all over for many years and being the nice guy has gotten me nowhere. Yes, I would consider it if I had the chance to ride and the assurance that we'd beat the system. 

At my current level of racing? Nah. I'm not very good and all the EPO in the world isn't going to change that.


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## mariomal99 (Mar 4, 2012)

of course

I'm sure the ryders of today are doping also with some new types of drug


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Probably. I did a lot of stupid crap at age 19. 

You know what else I would have taken? Classes at a university. Despite all my stupid crap I still managed to put myself through school. 

Even a traveling pro can take classes through a correspondence school. At the very least I would pick up an associates degree and then work for a bachelors in exercise physiology so that I would have a coaching/trainer career as a fallback. Or I would take classes completely unrelated to cycling. I'm just not the type to put all my eggs in one basket.


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## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

I can answer yes with some experience. I was a Track and Field athlete in college in the mid '90's. I knew that you needed an edge to make it to Elite status post-college. Was pretty cut and dry. I didn't need it for college, but if I wanted to make it to Athens in '00, there wasn't much of a choice. As it was, I got hurt and missed my Senior year, so my opportunity to prove myself to people who could help was lost. So I never had the opportunity to say yes or no, but I was ready to answer yes if asked.

BTW, in hindsight and an honest review of my talents, I was never gonna make it to Athens, but I believed at the time that a few more years of proper coaching and some "help" I could. I guess my point is my myopic 21 year old self still had a lot to learn.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Probably. I did a lot of stupid crap at age 19.
> 
> You know what else I would have taken? Classes at a university. Despite all my stupid crap I still managed to put myself through school.
> 
> Even a traveling pro can take classes through a correspondence school. At the very least I would pick up an associates degree and then work for a bachelors in exercise physiology so that I would have a coaching/trainer career as a fallback. Or I would take classes completely unrelated to cycling. I'm just not the type to put all my eggs in one basket.


No doubt that you and I have taken a "few" years of college. I don't know enough professional cyclists to really know how well most would do in college. My college had a lot of bassit bawl players. We'll just say they weren't in my biology or chemistry classes. We kinda wondered if professors padded their GPA to keep them on the team....

Regardless, when you have a pretty unique skill set, it's not easy to have a 2nd strong skill set. What would you do if your job were to end tomorrow and you had to move into an entirely different profession? I personally have no clue what I'd do.


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## tjeepdrv (Sep 15, 2008)

Probably not. I never did any kind of drugs. Never even smoked weed. The few times a doctor even prescribed painkillers, I never took them. So I probably wouldn't have. 

Me now at 29 though? I'm looking at a bunch of people who got to do what they wanted, become millionaires doing it, and all they have to do now is write a few paragraphs and live the good life...


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

tjeepdrv said:


> Probably not. I never did any kind of drugs. Never even smoked weed. The few times a doctor even prescribed painkillers, I never took them. So I probably wouldn't have.
> 
> Me now at 29 though? I'm looking at a bunch of people who got to do what they wanted, become millionaires doing it, and *all they have to do now is write a few paragraphs and live the good life*...


Do you think they wrote those paragraphs? 

Every confession seems so scripted: Faced with a bad decision. Everyone was doing it. Had to in order to keep up. Regret it. Quit in 2006. So sorry. Now things are better. So happy. Young riders wont have to face the same choices.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

SFTifoso said:


> Put yourself in the shoes of 19 year old, with loads of potential; circa 1999. You just moved to Europe to pursue your dream of being a pro-cyclist and riding a grand tour. But once you get there you realize that doping is an institutionalized tradition. You either dope or you don't make it, period. Would you have participated in the doping or would you've gone back home to work at your LBS?
> 
> I can honestly say, with 100% certainty, that yes, I would have doped. If that's what it took to make it at that time, and everyone around me was doing it, hell yes. Cheek or shoulder doc?
> 
> This is why I hate to pass judgement on riders from that time,because in my heart I know I would've done the same thing. Ride to TDF or actually work for a living? That's the most rhetorical question you can ask a 19 year old cyclist.


Well said. 

All of us would have. Too much money and competitiveness to not.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

I think I wouldn't have. A couple of people didn't. The reason why is because I'm lucky enough to be able to go to university and do something else, same as say, Scott Mercier. So I would have had other options. 

Someone who's 19 and doesn't have other interesting prospects for their future is a different story altogether. In that situation it would be a lot harder to say no.


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

19, if I had promise to go big? Most probably. 

Not that I had athletic promise at anything... And I was in college but I would have preferred (at the time) to be tearing all over Europe with a bunch of world-class athletes. At least I think the 19 yr old me would have. 

But I can definitely pass judgment on my 19 year old ass now. I was a doosh and needed to get my butt kicked and my mind right.

I also remember some folks who I am pretty sure would not have.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

I still dope, gotta run with the big dogs...


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## superjesus (Jul 26, 2010)

A 19 yr old me, on the cusp of a pro cycling career? Unquestionably, I would have doped. The extent to which, I cannot say for certain. I'd have been paranoid 24/7. But I'd have also worked harder and trained more obsessively than any other rider in the peloton, too. That's just who I was at that age. Young and dumb. At 19, I was doing much dumber things than EPO and blood boosting for arguably zero gains.


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## smartyiak (Sep 28, 2005)

I used to think that drug cheats were the scourge of all sports and the worst kind of person, but then I saw an interview with a former MLB pitcher (I want to say Jason Grimsley, but not positive)...

He was asked about "feeling bad" about cheating. He went on to explain that he was a marginal MLB pitcher and w/o drugs, he would have probably languished in AAA ball. Because of the drugs he played a number of years in MLB and made several million dollars. He was able to invest his $$$ so he can live comfortably and send his kids to college. He said he wouldn't have any of that comfort had he not cheated.

After hearing that interview, I realized how tough it would have been to say no. I'm not sure if I would, but I wouldn't be surprised if I did.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Under medical supervision, with about a .05% chance of getting caught?

Most people would do it in a heartbeat.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

by 19, I'd tried alcohol, marijuana, hashish, LSD, MDA, peyote, psilocybin, cocaine, methamphetamines, barbiturates, and a few dozen other things listed in the ol' Physician's Desk Reference.

so, taking PEDs would likely not have been much of an ethical issue. hell, they're probably like vitamins compared to some of the other stuff...


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## bbaker22 (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't honestly know... I would like to think that I would have said no. I was a fairly promising track and field athlete in the late 80's, with a scholarship to a division I school in the US. Eventually, I saw education as a more promising outlet than athletics and gave up my scholarship to spend more time with academics. I didn't have a million dollar contract in my future, no matter how many PED's I did, so it would have been fairly easy for me to say no. With the proposed scenario of being 19 in europe with a professional future, it wouldn't have been as easy to just give up my athletic dreams.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Oxtox said:


> by 19, I'd tried alcohol, marijuana, hashish, LSD, MDA, peyote, psilocybin, cocaine, methamphetamines, barbiturates, and a few dozen other things listed in the ol' Physician's Desk Reference.
> 
> so, taking PEDs would likely not have been much of an ethical issue. hell, they're probably like vitamins compared to some of the other stuff...


Wouldn't have touched anything outside of alcohol back in those days. That being said, there was a LOT of alcohol back then. I suppose I might have warmed up to the idea of EPO after a bottle of Jack.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

For certain.


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## profpenguin (Mar 1, 2012)

This is a good question, and I honestly don't know for sure, but I would think yes I would have.

With everyone around doping, there would have been next to no chance of any success. Also, with nobody being caught or punished, it would not be for me "Hey I can get away with it" but more "It's not right they can get away with it and be successful and I need to do the same to at least keep up."

The only thing that might have stopped me would be the danger involved and not understanding any long term effects. It might have scared me away.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

I can confidently say "no". I've always been the boring straightedge dude when it comes to these things, and I've always been irrational in other ways. Rode myself into two trips to ER due to over-exertion, first time being when I was 17 and then (coincidentally) 19. Almost happened a 3rd time this year after a month off the bike in winter, pretty impatient in being up at my previous pace. 

Pretty sure I'd be doing that in a desperate attempt to get better instead of doping, hell I bet I'd be doing it now if haven't maintained decent enough conditioning.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Good question. For this VERY reason, I have an issue with the "Dopers Suck" clothing etc.

If the person wearing the "Dopers Suck" jersey is referring to some Cat2 guy who dopes, then yeh...they suck!

21 year old international pro you ask? Meh...they are a very unique individual. They are in a very unique situation.

We can armchair quaterback all day long, but we wil never know will we?

.02


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Yes. Although I would have really had to have gotten over my needle phobia to do the blood doping. That just creeps me out. It makes me queasy just thinking about it.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

I would have doped. I would not have intimidated others to dope, ruin careers, go after wives, and all the rest of the crap Armstrong did.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

I am planning to do the Etape next year and having only the weekend to ride, and as such only 1 day of the weekend, family commitments ... I think I am going to need some form of supplement to help me.

And I am not even racing ...


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## TheMilkMan (Apr 30, 2012)

My answer would be yes - the thing is at that time everyone was doping. To not dope would have been the end of your cycling life at least professionally. That wouldn't have been something I could have given up. Giving up your dream is a hard thing to do especially if you are on the cusp. 

Also is it really cheating if everyone else is doing it and does it diminsh what was accomplished?

One last thing this isn't only sports related. I had plenty of friends in college - people in law school, med school, or other professional programs turn to illegal forms of stimulatuion to find that extra engery to deal with the pressure and stress of these programs.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Yes. Although I would have really had to have gotten over my needle phobia to do the blood doping. That just creeps me out. It makes me queasy just thinking about it.


Same here. Couldn't bear the thought of needles on a regular basis, as for blood doping, yuk, no way! Actually drugs of any kind have never held even the remotest fascination for me. Most of the people I've met who smoked weed were boring in the extreme with little in the way of personality.

No, I can honestly say that I would walk away.


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## Skinner222 (Aug 31, 2012)

Tschai said:


> I would have doped. I would not have intimidated others to dope, ruin careers, go after wives, and all the rest of the crap Armstrong did.


+1 to this. My sentiments exactly.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

I was a middle distance runner at a top 10 division 1 program back in the early 80's and passed on the opportunity to do steroids with a teammate who had a source. He went on to set a school record in our primary event which still stands 30 years later. More recently I raced cycling Masters in NC/SC with and against a number of guys who were using various methods...again I passed. Have had some success, including a state title, but obviously could have had more...but it is nice being able to look myself in the mirror every day, plus not worry about disgracing myself in my profession and with my family if something came out.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

I would have hit that sh!t like I was at a party with Amy Winehouse, Ozzy Osbourne, and Tommy Chong. 

I would like to think that I would be smart enough not to look foolish by denying the obvious if I was caught.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

If I knew I would have the chance to get to the top levels, the cost was covered and I had Dr. supervision...Heck yea.

Seriously...the amount of money to be made could set you and your family up for life with the only real consequence...possibly a couple years off your life, why wouldn't you? Conscious? Seriously...you can get over that with a little therapy ... and still be set up for life!


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Why wouldn't you ? I don't know, maybe because it's cheating ? The moral standards of some people is quite interesting. 
Btw I'm not much older than 19, so I'm not looking back 20 years to tell you that no, for sure, I would absolutely not have done it. On the other hand, being a fair cat 2 /lowly lowly cat 1, it probably wouldn't have netted me much more than maybe a domestic contract with a lot of work.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I think this is a really worthwhile thread. I think knowing what we know now, most of us wouldn't. We see the harm and the wreckage it brought or is bringing into people's lives and the dissapointment it has brought cycling fans. But if you put me in 1999 and it was all that was standing between me and cycling glory, I have to admit it would have been tough. The one thing I would have going for me is that, like DZ, I had some childhood experiences that have left me strongly opposed to drug use and alcohol, I'm not really even comfortable being around people that are really intoxicated or drinking heavily. I also saw the dark side of steroid use while in high school when a couple of teammates tried it. I am hoping that would have got me to think long and hard about it and ultimately say I'll pass regardless of the consequences, but I recognize that the potential is there to compartmentalize things like EPO and recreational drugs, so I have to wonder whether I would have been strong enough. Glad that I don't have to find out...


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

moskowe said:


> Why wouldn't you ? I don't know, maybe because it's cheating ? The moral standards of some people is quite interesting.
> Btw I'm not much older than 19, so I'm not looking back 20 years to tell you that no, for sure, I would absolutely not have done it. On the other hand, being a fair cat 2 /lowly lowly cat 1, it probably wouldn't have netted me much more than maybe a domestic contract with a lot of work.


If you were a dominant Cat. 1 @ 19 yrs/old with the sole dream of racing the TdF (and it being realistic at this point), you might see it differently. Besides, we're learning that it wasn't cheating, it was merely against the rules.

I've read the scripted confessions and I'd bet it was an easy decision, for all of them. Cycling is a very closed environment. These guys didn't have many outside influences, especially ones that knew anything about what a training cyclist's life was really like.

I'm about the same age as LA and these guys. If I thought I could make it at the time, yes, I think I'd have done it.


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

Yep. Next question.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

I'm pretty sure the answer would be no. I was pretty straight laced back then, and it's not likely I would have doped. I was also quite the realist, and if it wasn't working for me without the dope, I probably would have gone home. I changed my major in college four times, as I realized the current course was not going to work. I would have seen the writing on the wall with pro cycling.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

The answer would be "*Hell Yes!" *if Sheryl Crow was involved.










Having Robin Williams as a my #1 Fanboy constantly hanging outside my team bus...not so much.


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

tjeepdrv said:


> Probably not. I never did any kind of drugs. *Never even smoked weed* .


Nobodies perfect


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Is that how it really happened? Did all those guys go over to Europe and only then learn about doping? They must have been really naive.

At 19 I knew that many pro athletes used PEDs. Common, I knew high school kids that used steroids to improve their performance in football. Would I really believe that the Pros we natural?

With that said, I would say my answer would been no. I didn't take PEDs in high school or in college (despite others encouraging words). Would they have helped? Probably, but it wasn't worth it to me to go from DII to DI college football, and it wouldn't have mattered if it they would have raised my ability to the pro level.

Looking back, I think we would all do it because we know where we are now and we all have a passion for cycling. So, it is really easy to say yes, I would do it. That's because you aren't really faced with the pressure of actually doing it.


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

I have to say that I probably would not have doped, but not for any moral or ethical reasoning. I've never had much of a win/loose mentality. Any competitive sport I may have engaged in, I did it simply for the sake of doing it. There was nothing in my life that cultivates the sort of motivation that I think leads to cheating in racing.

I don't think that makes me better than other or really all that different. It certainly doesn't put me in a position where I can put on a DOPERS SUCK jersey or judge those I might consider to be cheaters. I can't do it because I honestly can't say what might have happened if things had turned out differently for. Had I the talent and motivation to become a pro cyclist and had been offered a shot in exchange for a lucrative career racing bikes when I was 19, I can't honestly say I would have walked away.


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## noelb (Feb 1, 2009)

Absolutely yes. I was a paratrooper in the Canadian Army when I was 19. I was fiercely loyal to my regiment and would have done anything to be "on the team". Had I been a pro cyclist, and everyone else was doping, and it was not only encouraged but expected; I would have been juiced. It is a rare man who try's to be a team mate while doing his own thing.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

bbaker22 said:


> I don't honestly know... I would like to think that I would have said no. I was a fairly promising track and field athlete in the late 80's, with a scholarship to a division I school in the US. Eventually, I saw education as a more promising outlet than athletics and gave up my scholarship to spend more time with academics. I didn't have a million dollar contract in my future, no matter how many PED's I did, so it would have been fairly easy for me to say no. With the proposed scenario of being 19 in europe with a professional future, it wouldn't have been as easy to just give up my athletic dreams.


I was in the same boat- ran track for D1 school. Was good, but not going to the Olympics by a long shot. 

I never even drank until I was 22, but I bet I would have doped. The sight of a syringe would scare me to some extent, but a true doctor explaining the medical pros and cons to me would have probably settled my nerves. If it was a fellow teammate trying to convince me with a bag of needles by his side, no way. I don't trust people enough. 

For many up-and-coming cyclist there is no downside. Let's say you do NOT dope. Then you go home, and get a real job. You DO dope. You might make it pro, might make more money, and you get to tour around with the team. What's there to lose? 

Like someone else said though, in hindsight, the mistake seems to be to NOT take it. Put out a press release after you retire, and all is well.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I have never been on the verge of realizing a dream like becoming a pro cyclist. I would imagine that many cyclists have faced this question, and some have said no way, and some have did what it took to fulfill that dream.
With enthusiasts like we have on this forum who could only dream about being a pro, I think the response would be in favor of doping as a means to excel, especially when one is maxed out on all other aspects of the training and diet.
Peer pressure is a powerful thing, along with a coach and doctors that you learn to trust. I would say that if I were put in a position like that I most certainly would have.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

I hate needles with a passion. If I had the potential for BIG contracts, then probably.......but the thought of constant needles terrifies me.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

"there is a lot of needles in pro cycling". I wasn't even 16 when I heard this (mid 80s...before the 'good stuff' was even being used). If I heard this in a small cornfield middle of nowhere town, at that time. So hard for me to buy ignorance from someone who has successfully worked up the CATs.

(put me in the 'idealistic youth' category)


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm currently thinking about it to up my Strava times 


I honestly don't know cuz I was never in that situation. I had an alcoholic in the family, I saw a lot of my friends get into problems with drugs at a young age..so I'd love to say no, but I'll drink wine now.. tried pot in college. I don't know.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

In that context I probably would have.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I had a guy on a group ride tell me he used supplemental testosterone. He read an article in bicycling magazine about a guy that did it, so he went to his doctor and got a prescription. The guy is in his mid 40's. I think I read somewhere that the age group with the highest number of cheaters is guys in their 40's. Go figure. Me, being in my mid 40's, I don't want to do something that might affect my longevity or quality of life. In my teens and 20's no problem though.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

nOOky said:


> I had a guy on a group ride tell me he used supplemental testosterone.... . I don't want to do something that might affect my longevity or quality of life.


From what I have read, testosterone injections might improve your quality of life. Not sure either has an effect on the longevity of life.


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> I am planning to do the Etape next year and having only the weekend to ride, and as such only 1 day of the weekend, family commitments ... I think I am going to need some form of supplement to help me.
> 
> And I am not even racing ...


You do realize that anyone who rides in the Etape is subject to random drug testing by the French authorities. And, I am not joking. I know someone who was tested a few years ago, Fortunately for him, the only "supplements" that he had before the event were good wine, cheese and other specialitie of the region.


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

Kestreljr said:


> From what I have read, testosterone injections might improve your quality of life. Not sure either has an effect on the longevity of life.


Although the subject is disputed, there is a belief among some physicians that testosterone supplements that are used by people who do not have abnormally low testosterone levels can cause or accelerate prostate cancer.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

So if you have low testosterone and you have injections to get it into a normal range, would that even be acceptable? I assume if you have a doctors approval it wouldn't be given unless it was abnormal to begin with.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

I have low HCT/RBC/HGB values which my endocrinologist believes is related to low testosterone. I declined to go on supplemental testosterone because a) I don't feel any ill effects and b) supplemental testosterone is a lifetime therapy once you start,

Many banned substances have legitimate medical use. You'd have to read the WADA protocols to see whether they can be used with medical authorization.


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## tomcho (Jan 30, 2010)

Without a question, can I buy EPO online?


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## nymackem (Oct 12, 2012)

*Probably yes*

I've lurked on here a while, but the recent discussions have been so interesting I couldn't resist.

I'll go a step further and say that not only would I likely have doped as a 19 yr old trying to get into the sport if that was the only way to succeed, but as a 39 year old now doing Ironman as an age-grouper, I've thought about it seriously (but not yet done it).

Why? Take a look at the Kona qualifying times for amateurs. I'm convinced some of those age groupers are doping. A set of aero wheels costs $2K and buys you maybe 10 mins on the bike leg of an Ironman. A course of EPO costs less than $1K and buys you more time over the entire event.

Economics, baby.

Realize I may sound a bit controversial.


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## sandiegosteve (Mar 29, 2004)

The dope I did at 19 wasn't too performance enhancing...

Everyone at the top of their activity looks for an edge. Ethics is a blurry line and at 19 not top of mind.

Why is 19 the magic number? How many older folks are taking ******? That is a performance enhancer? I suppose most on this forum have good circulation, but it likely has the same biological impact or worse than EPO. So don't pull the health line for not doping.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

nymackem said:


> I've lurked on here a while, but the recent discussions have been so interesting I couldn't resist.
> 
> I'll go a step further and say that not only would I likely have doped as a 19 yr old trying to get into the sport if that was the only way to succeed, but as a 39 year old now doing Ironman as an age-grouper, I've thought about it seriously (but not yet done it).
> 
> ...


Exactly what is wrong with this sport. A guy trying to qualify for an amateur event who feels like he needs to dope. For what ? Isn't doing an ironman a personal achievement ? This is seriously messed up.

Scratch that, it seems to be what's wrong in every sport. It's just so damn unfair that cycling is the only one putting an emphasis on it and trying to catch the dopers. Apparently since most of you would have been okay with it maybe we should just cut funding to all the anti-doping organisations and revert back to doing what every other sport does: nothing. We could test athletes just for show, and throw the urine samples away right after taking them, just to say we took them.


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## nymackem (Oct 12, 2012)

moskowe said:


> Exactly what is wrong with this sport. A guy trying to qualify for an amateur event who feels like he needs to dope. For what ? Isn't doing an ironman a personal achievement ? This is seriously messed up.
> 
> Scratch that, it seems to be what's wrong in every sport. It's just so damn unfair that cycling is the only one putting an emphasis on it and trying to catch the dopers. Apparently since most of you would have been okay with it maybe we should just cut funding to all the anti-doping organisations and revert back to doing what every other sport does: nothing. We could test athletes just for show, and throw the urine samples away right after taking them, just to say we took them.


I agree with you mostly... the part I don't agree with is that it's something wrong with sport. It's not. It's what's wrong with human nature. Many folks will take every advantage they can get to put up the best performance they can, even when the only outcome is the personal satisfaction of the time on the clock. These advantages will include nutrition, training plans, aero bike gear, elastic laces, where to draw the line?

Repeat btw I've not done it. It's possible to consider deeply the possibilities without being a douchebag : )


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

For me the line is draw at the point where you are artificially improving your body's performance through unnatural substances.
An aero TT bike is only a tool, it doesn't affect your body's performance. Proper training is also a tool, and can be achieved naturally. The same can be said about nutrition. 
The moment a human-designed substance artificially enhances performance, it changes the outcome of the race from "who is the best" to "who has the best doping"
Obviously there are more "natural" performance enhancers like caffeine which are allowed (and widely used) but I would draw the line at the use of an artificial substance (human-constructed EPO, for instance, as opposed to your body's EPO) to artificially enhance performance. I'm not extremely knowledgeable on the substances themselves so I'm sure it's not a good definition but that's how I see it.

I see cycling, essentially, as a sport where suffering plays a huge part in both the pleasure cyclists take in sport and in the outcome of the races themselves. It's a weird sport where people almost enjoy the suffering that comes with going to the limit of your endurance, and where you know in order to beat others up the mountain you're going to have to suffer a lot. This is why performance enhancers have such a huge impact, and probably also why it's the sport where people call out on dopers the most. It feels (at least to me) as though those who dope don't deserve the win because they didn't suffer properly for it. 
In other sports where "suffering" and the sense of accomplishment of having gone through it doesn't matter as much, or in other aspects of life where entitlement comes in different ways, I assume people don't care as much for those who cheat. Regardless, you are right, it is probably an aspect of human nature. Doesn't make it acceptable.


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## bruce_wayne (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm not familiar with the pro cycling scene of the '90s or today for that matter but I've been reading USADA's Reasoned Decision. OP's question seems to assume that EVERY pro tour team had a well-established doping program similar to USPS/Discovery. Is this really true (with documented evidence)?
Say it ain't so, Joe!


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Yes, this is really true. Whether the team had an organized program or the riders found the drugs themselves with the benediction of their DS, they were all on the dope.
The evidence is out there. The number of riders popped is astounding, the number of riders currently being outed and/or investigated in the wake of the USADA investigation and the Italian Ferrari one is also huge. 

I suggest you read the supporting documents provided with the reasoned decision. They already give a pretty good picture of how the system worked, even outside of USPS.


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## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

Oxtox said:


> by 19, I'd tried alcohol, marijuana, hashish, LSD, MDA, peyote, psilocybin, cocaine, methamphetamines, barbiturates, and a few dozen other things listed in the ol' Physician's Desk Reference.
> 
> so, taking PEDs would likely not have been much of an ethical issue. hell, they're probably like vitamins compared to some of the other stuff...


Wow. By 19 I had done six of those.


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## Handbrake (May 29, 2012)

moskowe said:


> Scratch that, it seems to be what's wrong in every sport. It's just so damn unfair that cycling is the only one putting an emphasis on it and trying to catch the dopers. Apparently since most of you would have been okay with it maybe we should just cut funding to all the anti-doping organisations and revert back to doing what every other sport does: nothing./QUOTE]
> 
> That is actually one option for a solution. Recognizing the futility of ridding sport of drugs would be an exercise in facing facts that would be good for fans and organizers to go through. People are willing to use drugs to cheat to win $50 trophies. They are willing to take a hit of meth to win absolutely nothing. We can spend billi


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

superjesus said:


> A 19 yr old me, on the cusp of a pro cycling career? Unquestionably, I would have doped. The extent to which, I cannot say for certain. I'd have been paranoid 24/7. *But I'd have also worked harder and trained more obsessively than any other rider in the peloton, too.* That's just who I was at that age. Young and dumb. At 19, I was doing much dumber things than EPO and blood boosting for arguably zero gains.


It's easy while sitting down comfortably infront of the computer to look back and say you would have pushed harder than anyone else. That is, until your only job is not to get dropped and you're on the bike suffering like a dog trying to hang on. That previous threshold of pain you thought was the ceiling? You're beyond it. You've been beyond it for quite some time now. Your body is shivering with pain in ways you never thought possible. The only coherent thoughts you can muster through the chaos of the agony... are the desperate, begging pleas, "make it end... please... make it end." As you fall off the back utterly defeated, another rider slowly and desperately makes his way around you... this man genuinely looks (and sounds) to be on the verge of death. The summit of the climb is nowhere in sight, and yet he continues hopelessly. This man is riding as though his life depended on it. He is riding as though a gun were to his head, like some tormented soul with nothing to lose. In this moment, you manage to actually feel sorry for *him*. Then you understand... 

No, you wouldn't have. Probably not even close, actually.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Cableguy said:


> It's easy while sitting down comfortably infront of the computer to look back and say you would have pushed harder than anyone else. That is, until your only job is not to get dropped and you're on the bike suffering like a dog trying to hang on. That previous threshold of pain you thought was the ceiling? You're beyond it. You've been beyond it for quite some time now. Your body is shivering with pain in ways you never thought possible. The only coherent thoughts you can muster through the chaos of the agony... are the desperate, begging pleas, "make it end... please... make it end." As you fall off the back utterly defeated, another rider slowly and desperately makes his way around you... this man genuinely looks (and sounds) to be on the verge of death. The summit of the climb is nowhere in sight, and yet he continues hopelessly. This man is riding as though his life depended on it. He is riding as though a gun were to his head, like some tormented soul with nothing to lose. In this moment, you manage to actually feel sorry for *him*. Then you understand...
> 
> No, you wouldn't have. Probably not even close, actually.


Wow - this could be the next Strava tv commercial for next season.


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## S.humrich (Oct 12, 2012)

Under the same cercomstances I'd say yes I would. To me it's kind of sad when I think you have to do it just to keep up with everyone else that's doing it but then again setting yourself up for the rest of your life isn't bad either.


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