# Why do people not wear helmets?



## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

Here in this piddly town I live in (temporarily, here for work), I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet. You can tell cycling awareness is not a very big concern for most people, and I am also one of the few people who seem to cycle remotely seriously as well.

My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


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## Aggdaddy (Jun 18, 2010)

Maybe in that piddly little town, they are behind the times. Be a leader and show them the proper way to ride a bike. I didn't start wearing a helmet until I started riding more seriously and seeing others with helmets on.

I feel kinda weird without it now.

maybe, it'll catch on once you illustrate how cool they can be?


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

Way more head injuries occur in automobile riders than in bike riders. Do you helmet up every time you get in a car? Falls are the number one cause of head injuries. Do you use a helmet when you walk?

TBI is traumatic brain injury.


> *The leading causes of TBI are: *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

Because their brains are not working well enough to be protected.


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## RyleyinSTL (Aug 6, 2012)

gte105u said:


> Why do people not wear helmets?


Who knows...Stupidity? Lack of oxygen at birth? Hipsterism? Spent helmet money on crack?


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## nevada72 (Aug 29, 2012)

gte105u said:


> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


I ride without a helmet sometimes. I'm not going to try and justify it. Even worse, I ride my motorcycle on occasion sans helmet. Again, not going to justify. I know it's not smart. I'll just say we all make choices that we hope to live with that aren't very smart - smoking (I don't), drugs (nope), alcohol (uh-huh), etc.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

gte105u said:


> I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet.


You are probably simply misinterpreting the situation. There was a revolutionary recent development in the cycling world: the invisible bicycle helmet (The Invisible Bicycle Helmet). It took the cycling world by storm and now it is virtually impossible to find a cyclist that doesn't own one. All those people that you think are riding without a helmet are actually sporting this invisible one. Somewhere on some AirBagHead.com they are probably laughing right now at those dinosaurs who are still riding in these archaic styrofoam helmets


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*No one answer.*



gte105u said:


> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet?


It's an interesting question with many answers. For example, almost no one of the hundreds of thousands of commuter and recreational cyclists riding in Amsterdam wears a helmet. A large part of this is peer pressure: chances are good you'd be laughed at or at best be considered slightly weird. Consider that wearing a helmet in a car would be considered odd in the U.S. even though wearing helmets in cars would clearly save lives. Logic doesn't apply.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

MikeBiker said:


> Way more head injuries occur in automobile riders than in bike riders. Do you helmet up every time you get in a car? Falls are the number one cause of head injuries. Do you use a helmet when you walk?
> 
> TBI is traumatic brain injury.


That's not a valid comparison. Adjust it for time spent within those activities and see what the numbers stack up like.

A percentage of people killed by jumping out of airplanes without parachutes is very, very small. But the percentage of time spent jumping out of airplanes without parachutes that results in death is right up near 100%. 

By your measurement, parachutes are silly. By mine, they sorta make sense.


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## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

The only time you need a helmet is when you crash and hit your head. I wear a helmet almost always.

I did go sans helmet on a short ride a few weeks ago. It did not feel right. I went to lunch with a coirker who has a folding bicycle. He also has a DC Capital Bikeshare membership. He let me use the capital bikeshare key and we went to lunch (8 or 9 blocks away).


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I wear a helmet every time I go on a road ride or mtb ride. Do I get all kitted up with a helmet every time I jump on my bike and cruise to the store?

No. I do feel like I understand the risks, and I deem them not too great.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

I nearly always wear a helmet. About the only time I don't is for a spin around the block to check an adjustment - ironic, because that's probably one of the times something's most likely to go wrong.

In decades of riding, I've only thumped head once. As it happened, I struck a tree at an odd, glancing angle, and having the helmet on (this was back in the cloth-covered beer cooler days) wrenched my neck and caused a significant neck problem - that likely I wouldn't have had if I was bareheaded. On the other hand, an inch or two in the other direction bareheaded, and I'd have been dead. Turns out I'm not very well practiced at aiming precisely how I crash. So, a helmet for me.

Some folks think "I don't go fast enough to need one." Oddly, forward speed usually doens't matter - it's the distance you fall that bangs yer noggin - speed just affects the amount of skin peeled off. Speed only matters to the extent that it makes the falling over more likely. Gravity moves your head towards the pave at the same speed either way.

If there's a reason why people don't, it's probably about convenience. If you are on a bike for any other reason than "going for a bike ride", the helmet is just one more thing to have to deal with. And despite the significant potential downside, the rate of occurrence is low enough that someone can rationalize it as an acceptable risk. And as long as they're not covered by my insurance plan, that's their choice to make. 

The folks I can't fathom are the ones I see riding along with their helmets strapped to their handlebars.


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## champamoore (Jul 30, 2012)

danl1 said:


> The folks I can't fathom are the ones I see riding along with their helmets strapped to their handlebars.


I almost always compliment this variety of person with, "Nice helmet!!!"
Why carry it with you if you aren't going to use it? Blood messes your hair up much worse than the helmet ever will.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

I apologize when in reading my OP it came off as judgmental (shake my head). We each make decisions as adults on our actions and the risks associated, especially when the risk really only impacts us alone (helmet or no only hurts or helps you the rider). My main thoughts are that as a parent with a 4 year old learning to ride, I must lead by example to show that a helmet is something he should wear at all times. If once he is 18 he decides there are times he does not want to then that is his choice. But when I see parents/adults with kids, and double when I see kids, not wearing helmets that is something I feel strongly about. And I can see no reason not to be sure the kids are wearing a helmet besides perception.

Interesting point about other countries that do not wear helmets regularly. I had not considered that, but it makes sense. The main reason I pose the question, besides just curious of others' habits, is if there is a "reason" to not wear a helmet. When I used to ride motorcycles, I remember groups of people who claimed that motorcycle helmets were actually more dangerous. Things along the lines of blocking vision/hearing, the weight making it more likely to snap your neck, etc. I always thought it was foolish, but did ride once in Texas without a helmet for a few miles. I hated it so much I never did it again. Interesting comments so far though.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

danl1 said:


> Some folks think "I don't go fast enough to need one." Oddly, forward speed usually doens't matter - it's the distance you fall that bangs yer noggin - speed just affects the amount of skin peeled off. Speed only matters to the extent that it makes the falling over more likely. Gravity moves your head towards the pave at the same speed either way.


Yea this is pretty stupid reasoning. Some people didn't pay attention in science class.
When riding a bike, your head is at least 1m above the pavement. At a 1m (3.3ft) drop you'll be traveling at 4.4m/s (9.9mph). If you don't think your head needs protection from pavement at 9.9mph, all the power to you.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

If I'm going on a long ride I always wear a helmet, bike shoes, a jersey, and bike shorts. When I hop on my bike to ride to the store, to a restaurant, or to work (my commute is 1.25 miles) I don't wear a helmet and I wear "street clothes." A bike is away of getting around, just like walking, and I don't feel the need to wear safety equipment for either for short jaunts. I pay attention when I ride, and while I might get hit by a car while riding I don't see it being any more dangerous than walking to the grocery store - and I'd never wear a helmet when I went for a walk or a hike.

When I race, do long rides, or mountain bike I wear a helmet because there is a greater risk of crashing or being hit by a car. But for a quick ride to the store for milk, to me the risk is so minimal (certainly as safe as walking or driving) that I'm willing to take a chance.


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## 0.2HP (Jul 13, 2011)

Head injuries and bicycle helmet laws. [Accid Anal Prev. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI

No clear evidence from countries that have enforced the wearing of helmets

http://www.cycle-helmets.com/cyclingreport_timgill.pdf


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Same reason they listen to headphones on their bike.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

gte105u said:


> I apologize when in reading my OP it came off as judgmental (shake my head). We each make decisions as adults on our actions and the risks associated, especially when the risk really only impacts us alone (helmet or no only hurts or helps you the rider). My main thoughts are that as a parent with a 4 year old learning to ride, I must lead by example to show that a helmet is something he should wear at all times. If once he is 18 he decides there are times he does not want to then that is his choice. But when I see parents/adults with kids, and double when I see kids, not wearing helmets that is something I feel strongly about. And I can see no reason not to be sure the kids are wearing a helmet besides perception.
> 
> Interesting point about other countries that do not wear helmets regularly. I had not considered that, but it makes sense. The main reason I pose the question, besides just curious of others' habits, is if there is a "reason" to not wear a helmet. When I used to ride motorcycles, I remember groups of people who claimed that motorcycle helmets were actually more dangerous. Things along the lines of blocking vision/hearing, the weight making it more likely to snap your neck, etc. I always thought it was foolish, but did ride once in Texas without a helmet for a few miles. I hated it so much I never did it again. Interesting comments so far though.


Wow, surprised you hated not wearing a helmet. I think it feels fantastic to ride without a helmet!


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

Because they want to show off their hair?

My favorite is when I see someone riding with their helmet hanging from the bars.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

When I used to live near enough, I would ride to mtb races. i wore my helmet to the race, and during the race, but after, I would ride home with the helmet hanging off my back pack cause I was usually too hot, and the helmet too wet, for me to be bothered..

I am one baaaad ass dude, better recognize biatches..


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

Natural selection. Don't worry about other people. You must be very libertarian about other people's body's.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

Not wearing a helmet commuting or road riding I kind of get. I never get on my bikes with out one. But its when I go mountain biking and see guys with out them that I cringe.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

helments cramp my style.


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## Rekless1 (Aug 23, 2012)

People do alot of things for alot of reasons. 

I don't dwell on it. Only one I tend to be worried about is myself.


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet?


Because people have the freedom to. The same argument has been taking place in the motorcycle world forever. When I was on motorcycles, I always wore a helmet. If I saw someone who didn't; it didn't bother me. Just don't sue anybody or come whining to me if you crack your little noggin on the ground.the same can be said for bicycles.

If I choose not to wear a helmet going 1/2mi-1mi to the store, it is my choice. What I don't need is some helmet nazi giving lecture about the dangers of riding without a helmet. I've got those pretty much figured out.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

foto said:


> I wear a helmet every time I go on a road ride or mtb ride. Do I get all kitted up with a helmet every time I jump on my bike and cruise to the store?
> 
> No. I do feel like I understand the risks, and I deem them not too great.


I think a lot of people feel that short rides at slower speeds don't require helmet use. I used to be one of them.

Then, last winter, I edged into a raised lip of pavement exactly parallel, and went over like Arte Johnson in the old Laugh-In skit. My head hit the ground hard enough to crack my helmet before I could even react. I was going all of about 3-5 mph at the time.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I view riders who opt to not wear head protection in the same light as I view smokers.

simply not very bright...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

gte105u said:


> Here in this piddly town I live in (temporarily, here for work), I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet. You can tell cycling awareness is not a very big concern for most people, and I am also one of the few people who seem to cycle remotely seriously as well.
> 
> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


Foam hats really do little to keep your head together. If you don't wear a helmet when you're walking or showering, you have no business being a helmet nazi and "shaking your head" at people who choose to not be a slave to the foam head insulator when riding a bike.


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## mickeyc7 (Mar 18, 2010)

Helmet definitely saved my life...head collided with hood of pickup truck.
Cracked helmet from front to bout two-thirds of helmet.
Wouldn't be typing this post if not for wearing helmet.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mickeyc7 said:


> Helmet definitely saved my life...head collided with hood of pickup truck.
> Cracked helmet from front to bout two-thirds of helmet.
> Wouldn't be typing this post if not for wearing helmet.


It saved your life maybe, but it couldn't save your ability to form complete sentences, apparently...


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## mickeyc7 (Mar 18, 2010)

I guess that's the result of too much texting.
Very observant of you....are you the grammar police?


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## PDex (Mar 23, 2004)

Cipo hates helmets.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

Oxtox said:


> I view riders who opt to not wear head protection in the same light as I view smokers.
> 
> simply not very bright...


I don't see it this way at all. Smoking is dangerous to your health. Is cycling dangerous to your health? Is it so dangerous that we should only do it when we wear the proper safety equipment?

Not wearing a helmet is more mowing the lawn or using a hammer without eye protection. It's like climbing a ladder without a safety harness. It's like going for a hike in tennis shoes. There is risk is many activities that we do. If we worry about every little thing that might potentially injury us we'd never leave the couch (but that will kill us to).

There's nothing wrong with wearing a helmet, in fact it might save your life. But I have a hard time believing that cycling is so dangerous that riding a bike without a helmet is akin to a death wish.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

How come people still have unprotected sex? What could possibly be going through their minds? It makes _absolutely no sense to me whatsoever!!!_ Don't they know if their genitals touch they could DIE?!?!?!?!


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## esldude (Jan 3, 2009)

Why don't people wear a helmet? As someone who wears one it should be obvious. They don't consider it a risk. Then add to that helmets look stupid (yes I know, but still never saw a helmet I thought looked good made for biking). Much more of a problem is the comfort. Helmets are uncomfortable as all get out mainly through being hot, damned hot. I think the main reasons are they don't see it as a big risk plus helmets are inconvenient and hot to wear. 

I find motorcycle helmets not real convenient, but not nearly the desire to forego one as a bike helmet because just sitting and riding even in hot weather is not nearly so hot as riding wearing a ventilated bike helmet. 

Even bike like helmets would save lots of lives in cars. But for the same reasons I doubt you will see them ever required. Plus without it being required one could wear them anyway, but never saw it even once. Now seatbelts, made pretty convenient to use, and of course air bags require nothing of the user.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Oxtox said:


> I view riders who opt to not wear head protection in the same light as I view smokers.
> 
> simply not very bright...


I view them as worse as it puts the rest of us in a bad light. And helmets are not addictive.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mickeyc7 said:


> I guess that's the result of too much texting.
> Very observant of you....*are you the grammar police*?


Yes, I am.


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## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

I think anyone riding a bike fast enough should wear a helmet, be it road, MTB or commute. 

I don't agree with those who say it's about "gravity" and not "speed"... It's about reaction time, and whether your reaction is sufficient to save you. Gravity can make you smash your head even while walking, if you are klutzy enough.

Right now it's mandatory as per BC law to wear a helmet while on a bike, so I wear it even when going two blocks to the nearby grocery store to pick up a carton of orange juice. If it weren't required by law, I'd only wear it on the road or on the MTB trail, and not during leisurely rides around the city bike paths or near the seawall.

To each his/her own, just make sure what you do doesn't hurt others in any way...


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

demonrider said:


> I think anyone riding a bike fast enough should wear a helmet, be it road, MTB or commute.
> 
> I don't agree with those who say it's about "gravity" and not "speed"... It's about reaction time, and whether your reaction is sufficient to save you. Gravity can make you smash your head even while walking, if you are klutzy enough.
> 
> ...


And 'hurting others in any way' includes not being able to pay all of your medical bills when you get hurt, and not going on disability, unemployment, or anything else where we all foot the bill for your reckless behavior.


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## maxfrm (Jan 15, 2012)

gte105u did you ride with a helmet as young child on your bmx? maybe you did not ride that type of bike when you were young. You may have went straight into mtb or road cycling. Just asking. When I started out I was on BMX, I did road & dirt. Enjoyed free styling for a time, tricks were just fun and dangerous. I use to love the big air and distance jumps. I did not ride with a helmet all those years. Its not like I was on the internet studying safety. If my parents said go out and play I did just that. Now society is and has been becoming more aware over the years. Time has changed and so is the knowledge people are gaining.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> Foam hats really do little to keep your head together. If you don't wear a helmet when you're walking or showering, you have no business being a helmet nazi and "shaking your head" at people who choose to not be a slave to the foam head insulator when riding a bike.


I don't see any helmet nazi's here, just a behavioral curiousity from someone that has a certain point of view.

You are right - bike helmets don't to much to keep your head together. Good thing then, that it's not what they're designed to do. What they are meant for - and what they're quite useful at - is controlling the rate at which your skull comes to a stop, and in so doing, control how hard the puddle of jello that is a brain slams into it. That makes a significant difference between the number of people that get up and check the damage to their bikes, vs. the number that get to eat through a tube for the rest of their lives.

While walking, I find I seldom am attached, straddling, to an unwieldy piece of titanium. I also tend not to shower with cars whisking past, inches from my elbow, at 45 mph. I've not measured, but it appears that my feet have a slightly larger contact patch than the tires on my bicycle, and they don't usually see the same sort of lateral loads. Maybe I'm old, but I just don't corner that fast when I'm walking. Plus, it's been a while since I've had to sweep the winter's fly ash out of the corners of my bathtub. It's _possible _these factors _slightly _change the risk profile for the respective activities. 

And before one makes the decision on whether to ride with a 'foam insulator,' it's worth considering that the sun is hot, and venturi ventilation can be quite efficient. Further, the wicking effects of pads can create additional efficiencies in evaporative cooling. Quite a few helmets test as cooler than a bare head - and in more than a marketing version of 'testing.'

Anyone can do what they want, and do the math any way they see fit. It's likely that brains of this quality aren't lessened by a close encounter of the asphalt kind. 

In that case, I agree. Using a helmet would be a pointless exercise.


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## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

bayAreaDude said:


> And 'hurting others in any way' includes not being able to pay all of your medical bills when you get hurt, and not going on disability, unemployment, or anything else where we all foot the bill for your reckless behavior.


Oh yeah, hugely reckless behavior riding 2km/h by the beach or through a beautiful city bikeway enjoying the surroundings.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

demonrider said:


> I don't agree with those who say it's about "gravity" and not "speed"... It's about reaction time, and whether your reaction is sufficient to save you. Gravity can make you smash your head even while walking, if you are klutzy enough.


Both answers are correct. It's gravity, not speed, that (mostly) determines the extent of damage. It's speed, not gravity, that (mostly) determines the likelihood of accident. It's the multiplication of the two that makes for a decision point.

And having your feet attached to a contraption you are straddling greatly increases the 'klutz' factor - so the walking analogy everyone loves isn't exactly valid. 

But I agree that for the amount of risk, mandatory laws don't really make much sense in the "short errand" or "bikewalking" sorts of uses. Arguably they do for 'serious' riding or longer trips, but that sort of legal definition gets goofy fast. I don't support helmet laws (at least for adults.) I do support helmet common sense.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

danl1 said:


> Both answers are correct. It's gravity, not speed, that (mostly) determines the extent of damage. It's speed, not gravity, that (mostly) determines the likelihood of accident. It's the multiplication of the two that makes for a decision point.
> 
> And having your feet attached to a contraption you are straddling greatly increases the 'klutz' factor - so the walking analogy everyone loves isn't exactly valid.
> 
> But I agree that for the amount of risk, mandatory laws don't really make much sense in the "short errand" or "bikewalking" sorts of uses. Arguably they do for 'serious' riding or longer trips, but that sort of legal definition gets goofy fast. I don't support helmet laws (at least for adults.) I do support helmet common sense.


 
Edit: Having written that, I thought of something. Helmets should not be required. However, anyone that wishes to ride without a helmet must ride a recumbent. That will ensure that they neither go fast enough to have significant risk, nor fall far enough to create sufficient damage!!

Problem solved.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

I agree with danl1. I already admitted my OP was overly "judgmental" and I apologized for that tone. I do find it curious why others would be willing to risk riding without a helmet, as the "reward" is greatly dwarfed by the "risk". That said, I guess it is very similar to wearing a seat belt. I will also fully admit that if I am just driving to the store quick I may not put it on. I shouldn't, and am working to correct that.

I personally take a very libertarian view on many things such as this. I am not for helmet laws for adults, but that does not mean I cannot think it foolish. If someone wants to ride a bike without a helmet, that is on them. I don't think it is a good idea, but I have gotten on a bike to test an adjustment and not strapped in. Could I have spilled in that one instance and hit my head, sure. So it does boil down to personal levels of risk acceptance. 

That said, I do feel children should always wear a helmet, just as they should always wear a seat belt. They do not have the mental capabilities (i.e. maturity and life experiences) to properly assess when is OK and not OK to use a helmet. They are also not financially and legally responsible for the outcome if they decide not to use it. I also feel strongly that parents should lead by example of their children and wear helmets. As a manager on a construction site and a parent of a young child I try to be an example for the safety policies I implement and not a "do as I say not as I do" type. Again, legal and personal beliefs are two very different things. I was mostly curious as to what people of differing opinions thought.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

danl1 said:


> Edit: Having written that, I thought of something. Helmets should not be required. However, anyone that wishes to ride without a helmet must ride a recumbent. That will ensure that they neither go fast enough to have significant risk, nor fall far enough to create sufficient damage!!
> 
> Problem solved.


Plus you know they aren't using the excuse that helmets look stupid... since they are obviously not worried about that.

For anyone who rides one, that was just a joke. Please don't proceed to flame me over it.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

danl1 said:


> I don't see any helmet nazi's here, just a behavioral curiousity from someone that has a certain point of view.
> 
> You are right - bike helmets don't to much to keep your head together. Good thing then, that it's not what they're designed to do. What they are meant for - and what they're quite useful at - is controlling the rate at which your skull comes to a stop, and in so doing, control how hard the puddle of jello that is a brain slams into it. That makes a significant difference between the number of people that get up and check the damage to their bikes, vs. the number that get to eat through a tube for the rest of their lives.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are probably old, yes.


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## nacnac3 (Dec 27, 2002)

MikeBiker said:


> Way more head injuries occur in automobile riders than in bike riders. Do you helmet up every time you get in a car? Falls are the number one cause of head injuries. Do you use a helmet when you walk?
> 
> TBI is traumatic brain injury.


Bad statistics. More people drive/ride in cars than ride bicycles so of course there are more head injuries from auto accidents.


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## boggart (Aug 25, 2012)

It's not stupidity or lack of oxygen at birth. 98% of people on a bicycle aren't "hard core" and ride for fun. They haven't had the experience of a helmet saving them, or anyone they know. You can tell them to wear one all ou want, but until they have a personal experience it won't matter. I only wear one because my wife wants me to and I love her so wearing one is the honorable thing to do. Otherwise I wouldn't either.


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## boggart (Aug 25, 2012)

Oh yeah and because I'm gonna die when God wants me to die wearing a helmet or not. This I firmly believe


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Look up pictures of hockey great Guy Lafleur on google, especially the one with him in flowing blond hair, no helmet, skating circles around all the goons with their full face masks and sturdy helmets.

Do you look as good as him?

If you do, you wouldn't wear a helmet either.


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## Makaveli6103 (Aug 30, 2012)

I don't wear a helmet because I like to feel my hair in the wind (kidding).


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

demonrider said:


> Oh yeah, hugely reckless behavior riding 2km/h by the beach or through a beautiful city bikeway enjoying the surroundings.


As long as you have paid for you own healthcare and have planned financially for you and your dependents should you die, become a vegetable, or can't work as a result of your injuries, keep enjoying your bike rides however you like.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

boggart said:


> Oh yeah and because I'm gonna die when God wants me to die wearing a helmet or not. This I firmly believe


I am assuming this is a joke right? You wouldn't forego a safety precaution for a reason this silly would you?


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

bayAreaDude said:


> And 'hurting others in any way' includes not being able to pay all of your medical bills when you get hurt, and not going on disability, unemployment, or anything else where we all foot the bill for your reckless behavior.


I smell a Drama Queen!


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

I will wear a helmet when racing and on group training rides. When I am out on the bike alone I do not wear one because I don't freaking want to...I am livin' on the ragged freaking edge.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

bayAreaDude said:


> As long as you have paid for you own healthcare and have planned financially for you and your dependents should you die, become a vegetable, or can't work as a result of your injuries, keep enjoying your bike rides however you like.


the dude does not abide.


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## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

nacnac3 said:


> Bad statistics. More people drive/ride in cars than ride bicycles so of course there are more head injuries from auto accidents.


The only "bad" statistics are the ones that have been manipulated (i.e. changed to suit the writer's argument). These may or may not be appropriate for a "should you wear a bicycle helmet or not," but they are the truth.


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## MercRidnMike (Dec 19, 2006)

Up until a week ago, I wore one because it was something I did....habit more than anything else. Early last week my routine commute to work took a nasty turn when they milled out bands of asphalt from a paved trail in order to re-pave it. I made it thought the first one fine as it was only 1" or so deep, the second was almost 4" deep where I came through and, well, that was a big stop for my front wheel...three cracked ribs, embedded glasses arms, a lot of road rash etc. were the result. Both the docs in the ER were dumbfounded that I had no concussion or signs trauma above my helmet line. The helmet is a write-off and I have healing to do, but the results could have been much, much worse.

Take it as you will, but for me there won't be rides without a helmet.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

I live my life by a simple question: What would Cipo do?

Cipo ain't big on helmets.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

A few weeks ago, one of my local cycling acquaintances died from head injuries, sustained when, at low speed, he fell out of a moving golf cart. He was not wearing a helment. Or a seatbelt.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Creakyknees said:


> A few weeks ago, one of my local cycling acquaintances died from head injuries, sustained when, at low speed, he fell out of a moving golf cart. He was not wearing a helment. Or a seatbelt.


Only a fool would not wear a helmet while golfing. The solution here is obvious. Mandatory helmet use for golfers. 

Giro will introduce a special golf helmet, which will cost $3 to manufacture but will be sold for the entirely reasonable price of $450.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

trailrunner68 said:


> Only a fool would not wear a helmet while golfing. The solution here is obvious. Mandatory helmet use for golfers.
> 
> Giro will introduce a special golf helmet, which will cost $3 to manufacture but will be sold for the entirely reasonable price of $450.


Can it stop me from slicing?


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

bayAreaDude said:


> Same reason they listen to headphones on their bike.


Same reason why people ride at night without reflectors or headlights/tailights. It's stupid, dangerous, and irresponsible.


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## mikejd (Jul 18, 2012)

For many motorcycle riders it's a symbol of them "exercising their rights and freedom" and looking like a badass. The ol', "I'm not wearing one because it's my right not to wear one" thing. That, and it feels good. But from what I understand, heroin feels pretty good too. I'm not sure if the same applies to cyclists.

I read lots of stories about helmets saving people's lives or saving them from serious injury. I've never heard of anyone who said they were saved by _not_ wearing a helmet. Until that trend changes, I'll continue to wear a helmet.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

CycoBob said:


> If it weren't for the fact that I have descents on which the speeds can get up there, I wouldn't wear a helmet either. In a crash, one is most likely to chin/jaw area (which is why most motorcyclists wear full-face helmets) in which case, the bike helmet offers zero protection.


interesting...


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

Those statistics are meaningless. You would need to look at the percentage of falls that result in TBIs and such. I have fallen thousands of times with no injury, but I would bet a higher percentage of bike accidents have TBI than falls. Sounds like you need some self study in statistics and economics ;-)


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I always wear a helmet. I don't care what other people do, their personal safety is not my concern unless it directly affects me. Thankfully there are no bicycle helmet laws, I would prefer to have the choice. I don't rag on other people for their choices, I don't always make the best choices myself.
In other words, who cares?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

nOOky said:


> I always wear a helmet. I don't care what other people do, their personal safety is not my concern unless it directly affects me. Thankfully there are no bicycle helmet laws, I would prefer to have the choice. I don't rag on other people for their choices, I don't always make the best choices myself.
> In other words, who cares?


Well said.


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## RyleyinSTL (Aug 6, 2012)

nOOky said:


> Thankfully there are no bicycle helmet laws....


Say what?

Motorcycle and bicycle helmet use laws


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I just rode my road bike to the store for an iced coffee, in flip flops, board shorts, and no helmet. Then I rode back one handed (had to hold the coffee).

I felt like a real rebel.


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## vfr (Jul 14, 2012)

gte105u said:


> Here in this piddly town I live in (temporarily, here for work), I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet. You can tell cycling awareness is not a very big concern for most people, and I am also one of the few people who seem to cycle remotely seriously as well.
> 
> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


Same reason people don't wear seat belts and I really don't understand that reason.....


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Denial, delusions of invulnerability, vanity, ignorance- there are probably lots of other reasons. If we all didn't have to pay for their emergency medical care/longterm care I'd say it was up to the individual.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dave IV said:


> I smell a Drama Queen!


Not really. Usually the folks who vehemently defend the right to not wear a helmet or seatbelt tend to not have insurance and money. They like rights, but aren't the kind of guys who are able to foot the bill.


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## scryan (Jan 24, 2011)

Is it really that hard to come up with negatives to wearing a helmet?

Nice ones are expensive, cheap ones suck to wear... and no matter what they are never more comfortable then the breeze in your hair.

Do you wear one while sitting in a chair at home? Of course not, because no one LIKES to wear a helmet... we just do because we chose to trade the minor inconvenience for the added safety.

People who chose not to wear a helmet do so because they chose to trade getting rid of the minor inconvenience for the added safety because they do not think they will need it. Most of them are right too, its just the price is pretty steep if your wrong


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## uphillcrash (Apr 12, 2009)

Just one question, how does a helmet stop your brain moving forward and smashing into the inside of your skull causing brain damage ?


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Same way football helmets, motorcycle helmets, car airbags work- by slowing the rate of deceleration of your skull.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

vfr said:


> Same reason people don't wear seat belts and I really don't understand that reason.....


Fear of confinement so strong that I have panic attacks when wearing a seatbelt. There's a reason for ya, Sparky.

I never wear a seat belt. Ever.

I'll trade the "security" of having my ribs broken and my shoulder dislocated for not having to strap a damn torture device on every time I get in my vehicle.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Bill2 said:


> Same way football helmets, motorcycle helmets, car airbags work- by slowing the rate of deceleration of your skull.


True of course but then this is the limitation of any helmet. The amount of deceleration afforded by the compression of a fraction of an inch (1/2?) of styrofoam is very slight and that's why they're over-rated. When some people talk (especially do-gooder nanny politicians and some cycling forum people) you'd think that helmet wearers were immune to death and that any concern for not crashing in the first place was totally over-shadowed. Put a helmet on a kid and launch it into traffic without any basic knowledge of road rules. I see it every day, 50x a day, right in front of my house.


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## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

I think if you talk to anyone who has crashed and had their gourd protected by a helmet, they will recommend it. I won't ride without a helmet or ride with anyone not wearing one.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> True of course but then this is the limitation of any helmet. The amount of deceleration afforded by the compression of a fraction of an inch (1/2?) of styrofoam is very slight and that's why they're over-rated. When some people talk (especially do-gooder nanny politicians and some cycling forum people) you'd think that helmet wearers were immune to death and that any concern for not crashing in the first place was totally over-shadowed. Put a helmet on a kid and launch it into traffic without any basic knowledge of road rules. I see it every day, 50x a day, right in front of my house.


Show me a responsible, peer reviewed study showing that it's more dangerous, (ie, having a higher incidence of head injury) to wear a helmet, and I'll consider stopping my wearing of them.

If the added safety margin is only minimal, it's still worth the (often grossly exaggerated) discomfort.


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Not really. Usually the folks who vehemently defend the right to not wear a helmet or seatbelt tend to not have insurance and money. They like rights, but aren't the kind of guys who are able to foot the bill.


Interesting statement...please site your sources, because I am skeptical. I frequently ride without a helmet. I have a generous health insurance policy and I have significant income, savings, and investments.

I really think you made up that statistic.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mpre53 said:


> Show me a responsible, peer reviewed study showing that it's more dangerous, (ie, having a higher incidence of head injury) to wear a helmet, and I'll consider stopping my wearing of them.


Did you read something into my post that isn't apparent to me?



> If the added safety margin is only minimal, it's still worth (it).


I never said it wasn't.


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

andulong said:


> I think if you talk to anyone who has crashed and had their gourd protected by a helmet, they will recommend it. I won't ride without a helmet or ride with anyone not wearing one.


Interesting...I avoid riding with anyone who uses a mirror because I am skeptical of their bike handling skills.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I won't ride with anyone who doesn't use a mirror because I am skeptical of their bike handling skills.


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

I won't ride with anyone who wouldn't ride with someone who wouldn't use a mirror or helmet...or something like that.

Enough of this crap. I'm going for a ride...by myself...without a freaking helmet...or mirror. And I think I'll even motorpace a bus while I'm out; 'cause I like liviin' on the edge.


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## jneilt (Aug 11, 2012)

My wife works on a number of craniofacial cases (mostly kids). When we lived in NY it was mostly snowmobiles/snowboards. Down here, ATVs, personal watercraft, and bikes.

Don't want to wear a helmet...fine by me...more toys for me. I know that is a crap attitude to have, but after so many years of not seeing behaviors change...well...you should see the agony of a parent who's kid is confined to a wheelchair because of oversight or wanting to look cool.

FWIW. I have been riding since 1990, I don't have a helmet, I don't get on a bike....no matter how short the ride.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Dave IV said:


> I won't ride with anyone who wouldn't ride with someone who wouldn't use a mirror or helmet...or something like that.


I won't ride with anyone.



> I'm going for a ride...by myself....


Not me. I'm so particular that I won't ride with anyone that rides - even me.


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## CycleFiend17 (Aug 27, 2012)

You might want to check the tech behind motorcycle helmet 'foam' before you compare them to bycicle helmets.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

We cyclists are an odd bunch. The majority of us are pro-helmet users. Some of the more critical cyclists will look down at a rider not wearing a helmet. These cyclist will judge their reasons as conclude that they are simply poor excuses.

Interestingly, these same cyclists refuse to use a bell when passing pedestrians and instead choose to yell "ON YOUR LEFT!". They also choose not use reflectors, a headlight, and a taillight when riding in the dark which I can't begin to tell you how dangerous and irresponsible that is to everyone. 

But they will wear a helmet. 

Even more interesting than this contradiction is that they will have all sorts of excuses for why they don't have a bell, reflector, headlight, etc. but when you really consider them, these excuses are usually lamer than the ones made by non-helmet wearing cyclists who tries to justify why they don't wear a helmet.

I ride with a helmet and I believe we all should as well even though it's not against the law in many places. But it's hard for me to look a cyclist in the eye and tell him that he is being unsafe if I don't conduct legally-required cycling behaviors myself (e.g. bell, lights, riding two abreast unless otherwise stated.)


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## scryan (Jan 24, 2011)

uphillcrash said:


> Just one question, how does a helmet stop your brain moving forward and smashing into the inside of your skull causing brain damage ?


Maybe its just me... But I think most peoples brains are a reasonably tight fit up there. Generally does not rattle around too much.

As a more serious answer... The fluid surrounding your brain does, but it can only do so much so having a shell to absorb energy while it breaks apart helps. Also, forces in an impact are directly related to the time the impact takes (called impulse), so increasing the length or the impact by allowing more deformation of foam increases the time the momentum change takes, and decreases peak forces.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rkdvsm said:


> We cyclists are an odd bunch. The majority of us are pro-helmet users. Some of the more critical cyclists will look down at a rider not wearing a helmet. These cyclist will judge their reasons as conclude that they are simply poor excuses.
> 
> Interestingly, these same cyclists refuse to use a bell when passing pedestrians and instead choose to yell "ON YOUR LEFT!". They also choose not use reflectors, a headlight, and a taillight when riding in the dark which I can't begin to tell you how dangerous and irresponsible that is to everyone.
> 
> ...


You forgot "mirror".


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

safety is for nerds. I swear the tri-lambs wouldn't accept a single one of you.


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## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

scryan said:


> Do you wear one while sitting in a chair at home? Of course not, because no one LIKES to wear a helmet...


Hey, if I want to wear a helmet in my Lazy-boy recliner, what business is it of yours? I love wearing my helmet all the time.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dave IV said:


> Interesting statement...please site your sources, because I am skeptical. I frequently ride without a helmet. I have a generous health insurance policy and I have significant income, savings, and investments.
> 
> I really think you made up that statistic.


Souce: 11 years in a level 3 trauma center. 

See also: people who smoke, defend the right to smoke, and are "self pay" aka NOT gonna pay. 

The guys who defend the right to smoke, not wear seatbelts, and/or not wear helmets also LOVE to argue. Wanna see my source for that?


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

spade2you said:


> Souce: 11 years in a level 3 trauma center.
> 
> See also: people who smoke, defend the right to smoke, and are "self pay" aka NOT gonna pay.
> 
> The guys who defend the right to smoke, not wear seatbelts, and/or not wear helmets also LOVE to argue. Wanna see my source for that?


Hahaha, too true


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

andulong said:


> I think if you talk to anyone who has crashed and had their gourd protected by a helmet, they will recommend it. I won't ride without a helmet or ride with anyone not wearing one.


I won't ride with anyone who doesn't wear a Bug Mouthguard.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

spade2you said:


> Souce: 11 years in a level 3 trauma center.
> 
> See also: people who smoke, defend the right to smoke, and are "self pay" aka NOT gonna pay.
> 
> The guys who defend the right to smoke, not wear seatbelts, and/or not wear helmets also LOVE to argue. Wanna see my source for that?


Ha ha ha. What a ridiculous post. I am all for wearing helmets, meatballs and not smoking but without those people you can forget about social security. 

God bless RJ Reynolds.


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Souce: 11 years in a level 3 trauma center.
> 
> See also: people who smoke, defend the right to smoke, and are "self pay" aka NOT gonna pay.
> 
> The guys who defend the right to smoke, not wear seatbelts, and/or not wear helmets also LOVE to argue. Wanna see my source for that?


Stating that the source is 11 years in a level 3 trauma center means nothing. It almost seems to suggest that maybe your evidence is anecdotal. Let me see your data. Without data your just making up stuff.


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

Dave IV said:


> I won't ride with anyone who wouldn't ride with someone who wouldn't use a mirror or helmet...or something like that.
> 
> Enough of this crap. I'm going for a ride...by myself...without a freaking helmet...or mirror. And I think I'll even motorpace a bus while I'm out; 'cause I like liviin' on the edge.


I just finished my ride . It was utter carnage out there. There were wounded and dead helmet-less riders everywhere. The helmeted riders were having difficulty maneuvering through the corpses and debris. I believe I actually witnessed a helmet-less rider spontaneously explode. I feel very lucky to have made it home in one piece.

That's it, I have learned my lesson. I am putting my helmet on right now and never taking it off...ever...not for anything....


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## Deathmoney07 (Aug 26, 2012)

not wearing a helmet is someone's choice...a very stupid choice imo...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dave IV said:


> I just finished my ride . It was utter carnage out there. There were wounded and dead helmet-less riders everywhere. The helmeted riders were having difficulty maneuvering through the corpses and debris. I believe I actually witnessed a helmet-less rider spontaneously explode. I feel very lucky to have made it home in one piece.
> 
> That's it, I have learned my lesson. I am putting my helmet on right now and never taking it off...ever...not for anything....


I ran into Steve Tilford earlier this year, a former MTB world champ, good racer, good bike handler. He was checking out part of a race route and descending pretty fast when his tire went flat. He crashed hard and bonked his helmet really hard on the cement. 

He has vastly superior experience and handling skills than you and I, by a lot. Yet he still wears a helmet without question. I think that says something.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

No. 1 Reason: BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dave IV said:


> Stating that the source is 11 years in a level 3 trauma center means nothing. It almost seems to suggest that maybe your evidence is anecdotal. Let me see your data. Without data your just making up stuff.


...and who are you to tell me what there is or isn't to be learned after more than a decade in a level 3 trauma center? You sound like a legend in your own mind. I'd say more, but you're entirely too dense to learn. 

I'll stick to paying attention and learning there. I did know a patient involved in a ~25mph ATV accident without a helmet. He's not a slobbering vegetable, but only a few IQ points higher than Sling Blade or Forest Gump after the accident. I don't know about you, but it's not hard hitting speeds higher than that on a road bike.


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

spade2you said:


> ...and who are you to tell me what there is or isn't to be learned after more than a decade in a level 3 trauma center? You sound like a legend in your own mind. I'd say more, but you're entirely too dense to learn.
> 
> I'll stick to paying attention and learning there. I did know a patient involved in a ~25mph ATV accident without a helmet. He's not a slobbering vegetable, but only a few IQ points higher than Sling Blade or Forest Gump after the accident. I don't know about you, but it's not hard hitting speeds higher than that on a road bike.


That is all well and good; however your original statement was that "the folks who vehemently defend the right to not wear a helmet or seatbelt tend to not have insurance and money. They like rights, but aren't the kind of guys who are able to foot the bill."

This is the statement I am looking for you to defend. This is the statement that raises my skepticism and which I believe you fabricated.

And regarding the person in the ATV accident who is a few IQ points higher than Sling Blade or Forest Gump after the accident, what is your baseline. Could he have been only a few IQ points higher than Sling Blade or Forest Gump *before* the accident, hence the accident caused no change. Just asking.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

Sometimes I wear one, sometimes I don't. I certainly don't think that the helmet is going to 'save my life' and there's no way to absolutely quantify the protection it provides in an accident; if you were wearing one you don't know that you would have been hurt worse without it. There's also the risk factor....often people who wear protective gear think that it gives them some kind of magic shield and they end up taking more risks because of the gear. Don't believe me?



> Many specialists in risk analysis argue that something else is in play. They believe that the increased use of bike helmets may have had an unintended consequence: riders may feel an inflated sense of security and take more risks.
> 
> One parallel, risk experts said, is anti-lock brakes. When they were introduced in the 1980's, they were supposed to reduce accidents, but government and industry studies in the mid-1990's showed that as drivers realized their brakes were more effective they started driving faster, and some accident rates rose.


Topica Email List Directory

And then there's this....


> Before 1990, helmet use in the U.S. was rare, and nobody thought anything of it. Then in the 1990s, helmet use skyrocketed. So after cyclists started wearing helmets, head injuries among cyclists went down, right?
> 
> No, head injuries went _up_. Let me repeat that: When helmet use went up, head injuries went up right along with them.There's a big article about this in the New York Times, showing that head injuries among cyclists went up 51% in the 1990's as more and more cyclists started wearing helmets.
> 
> It's not clear whether helmets _caused_ the head injuries; there are other plausible explanations for why head injuries increased (more attention to helmets and less attention to safe riding skills being one of them). But what _is_ clear is that any protective value of helmets is so small it's hard to measure.


http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html

You have to love helmet evangelists....everyone who doesn't wear one is stupid or some other insult. If you were to replace "wearing a helmet" with a different action, i.e. "smoking pot" or "abortion", then they'd almost certainly be on the other side of the debate and all about personal choice. What is it about someone choosing to not wear a helmet that makes so many cyclists react irrationally?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

spade2you said:


> I ran into Steve Tilford earlier this year, a former MTB world champ, good racer, good bike handler. He was checking out part of a race route and descending pretty fast when his tire went flat. He crashed hard and bonked his helmet really hard on the cement.
> 
> He has vastly superior experience and handling skills than you and I, by a lot. Yet he still wears a helmet without question. I think that says something.


Yeah, it says he wears a helmet.

I just saw a video of Mario Cipollini riding without a helmet. He also has vastly superior experience and handling skills than you and I, by a lot, yet no helmet. I think that says something.

It says he doesn't wear a helmet.

These are choices. We all make them every day.
One mans choice may be different than another mans, but that doesn't necessarily make one right and the other wrong, it just makes them different choices.

Wearing a helmet may or may not make a difference, but, enough with the Moral Outrage.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

velodog said:


> These are choices. We all make them every day.
> One mans choice may be different than another mans, but that doesn't necessarily make one right and the other wrong, it just makes them different choices. Wearing a helmet may or may not make a difference, but, enough with the Moral Outrage.


I wouldn't jump out of a perfectly working airplane if I had ten parachutes strapped to me but I wouldn't judge those who choose to do so. Enough of the helmet nannies! And yes I do wear a helmet and it's my choice, just like others should have the choice not to wear one. Cycling isn't all that risky.


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## warpspeeeeed (Sep 2, 2012)

Can't mess up my hair.


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## eidolon (Jun 21, 2012)

warpspeeeeed said:


> Can't mess up my hair.


The implication being that you are bald?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

velodog said:


> Yeah, it says he wears a helmet.
> 
> I just saw a video of Mario Cipollini riding without a helmet. He also has vastly superior experience and handling skills than you and I, by a lot, yet no helmet. I think that says something.
> 
> ...


With Cipo, it's 100% about the hair and he would take great risks that to avoid messing up his hair.


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

spade2you said:


> ...and who are you to tell me what there is or isn't to be learned after more than a decade in a level 3 trauma center? You sound like a legend in your own mind. I'd say more, but you're entirely too dense to learn.
> 
> I'll stick to paying attention and learning there. I did know a patient involved in a ~25mph ATV accident without a helmet. He's not a slobbering vegetable, but only a few IQ points higher than Sling Blade or Forest Gump after the accident. I don't know about you, but it's not hard hitting speeds higher than that on a road bike.


So let me get this straight; because I refuse to blindly accept what appears to be a completely fabricated statement and ask for back-up data this makes me "too dense to learn" and "I need to pay attention and learn".

I believe that by asking for more information shows I am paying attention and have thought enough about the statement to question is accuracy. This also speaks to your accusation regarding my ability to learn. I am looking for more information from you in order to evaluate your original statement. This will allow me to learn more about the topic. Indulge me.

Your failure to provide additional info and then side-stepping the issue with the statement," I'd say more, but you're entirely too dense to learn", leads me to believe you have no additional info to provide and that your original statement was fabricated and unsupportable.

Oh, and it sounds as if you may have an anger issue...just guessing.


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## Dave IV (Jan 20, 2009)

spade2you said:


> With Cipo, it's 100% about the hair and he would take great risks that to avoid messing up his hair.


Do you have any evidence to substantiate this statement...oh, never mind...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dave IV said:


> Do you have any evidence to substantiate this statement...oh, never mind...


It's Cipo. He could care less about his brain, as long as his hair was ok and went with his outfit and shoes. 

He did an interview on one of my TdF DVDs and his first line was "I like clothes."


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dave IV said:


> Your failure to provide additional info and then side-stepping the issue with the statement," I'd say more, but you're entirely too dense to learn", leads me to believe you have no additional info to provide and that your original statement was fabricated and unsupportable.
> 
> Oh, and it sounds as if you may have an anger issue...just guessing.


I've got a life outside of RBR. Was on my bike. Is that ok with you?


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## Chrispy1 (Sep 2, 2012)

Headphones are worse.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

After crash helmet pic:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Are you alright?


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## early one (Jul 20, 2010)

Hope you are all right. Share the story.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

Bill2 said:


> After crash helmet pic:


Wow, since you're typing I assume you are more or less ok. Glad you had your lid.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

I'll echo again what others have said. The reason is because they are stupid. BUT they are stupid as people who also choose not to use headlights and taillights. They are stupid as those who do not use bells to signal or to alert people of their presence. Rather they choose to yell, "On your left" scaring every pedestrian in their way as they race some 30+ mph (even 10+ mph is fast enough to scare a ped.)

Now here's the weird thing. Cycling with lights, using a bell, and yielding to pedestrians are *required* by law in most, if not all, states. Riding with a helmet is *not required* by law if you are over a certain age (12, I think). Yet, we are so quick to judge those who ride without a helmet, but in reality, we should look at our own behaviors and see that we're not doing what is *LEGALLY* right for ourselves and for our community.


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## InfiniteLoop (Mar 20, 2010)

gte105u said:


> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


As others have pointed out, the same can be said for walking, driving a car, mowing the grass, and any number of activities without a helmet, eye protection, steel toed boots, etc. There are circumstances where the risks involved are high enough to justify extra protection, others where it may or may not be, and others where extra protection gives people a false sense of protection and causes more problems than not wearing protection.

Here's a rather humorous, and serious, take on the whole thing:

Mikael Colville-Andersen: Why we shouldn't wear bike helmets - Momentum Mag

When I'm on my road bike, clipped in to my pedals, riding with auto traffic, I wear a helmet. The risk, or perceived risk is enough. When I'm on my city bike with platform pedals and mostly riding on cycle tracks I don't. The risk is not that great and quite simply, it's a pain to deal with. I don't want to go find it every time I ride to the store, I don't want to deal with it when I'm at the store or cafe (either leaving it to be stolen or carrying it with me), and yes, I even don't want my hair to get messed up. I am that vain and concerned about how I look in public (it's the same reason I wear clothes most of the time, get my hair cut, and shave every other day) 

I also don't want to project cycling as this terribly dangerous activity that people shouldn't do unless they wear a helmet - IT'S NOT THAT DANGEROUS. We are much better off, as individuals and as a society, if people ride without helmets than if they don't ride at all. And the perceived need (or legal requirement) to wear a helmet has been shown in several studies to keep people from riding bikes and further, no helmet law that I'm aware of has reduced head injuries. Just look at all the studies on cycling in Australia after their helmet laws were introduced, cycling declined, head injuries stayed the same. That sure worked well.

That'll be enough for now...


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

InfiniteLoop said:


> As others have pointed out, the same can be said for walking, driving a car, mowing the grass, and any number of activities without a helmet, eye protection, steel toed boots, etc. There are circumstances where the risks involved are high enough to justify extra protection, others where it may or may not be, and others where extra protection gives people a false sense of protection and causes more problems than not wearing protection.
> 
> Here's a rather humorous, and serious, take on the whole thing:
> 
> ...


AMEN to that. I think people have to realize that the issue isn't black and white. It's definitely more complicated than that. I'm not saying that I'm against helmets. Heck, I ride with a helmet too. Just be careful not to judge those who decide to ride without one. It's their choice and you are not better than that person. That's why I said for every helmet-wearing cyclist who judges those who ride without one should look at themselves in the mirror and see whether they are also following every rule and requirement for cycling (e.g. mirrors, bells, lights, yielding to pedestrians, etc.)

In my experience, I know that many are not, yet because they wear a helmet, they are model examples of what people should do. Sad.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

I have two (2) helmets hanging on the garage wall. Both are cracked through. My head is not.

Your head weights about 16 pounds. Imagine dropping a bowling ball, with just gravity acting - no added vertical or horizontal velocity, from 5'11" to a concrete pad. That's the force your skull imparts to the concrete when it hits the ground. Concussion, contusion, intercranial bleeding, ... death.

Worried about losing it? Buy a cheap one so long as it passes the CPSC standard (which it must to be sold commercially in the US). Expense gets you style, not more safety.


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## InfiniteLoop (Mar 20, 2010)

Trek2.3 said:


> I have two (2) helmets hanging on the garage wall. Both are cracked through. My head is not.
> 
> Your head weights about 16 pounds. Imagine dropping a bowling ball, with just gravity acting - no added vertical or horizontal velocity, from 5'11" to a concrete pad. That's the force your skull imparts to the concrete when it hits the ground. Concussion, contusion, intercranial bleeding, ... death./QUOTE]Firstly, you are a huge statistical anomaly if you've had your life saved twice because of wearing a helmet. Over 98% of cyclists in NL, Denmark, and other high cycling nations never wear helmets - they should all be dead by now. In fact, there should be few people over the age of about 34 (and yes, they do have a lot of crashes, they just don't have all of the head injuries that we think they should).
> 
> A neurologist friend pointed out something interesting to me recently after his nephew came home from school having watched a demonstration by the local police of head damage by throwing a cantaloupe on to the floor "See what happened to that cantaloupe, that could be your head, if you ride a bike, wear a helmet" was the message. My friend then told me that your head can usually sustain greater impact than a foam helmet - what cracks a foam helmet may do nothing to your head. His point was not that helmets don't help (he encourages competitive cyclists to wear them), but that a cracked helmet is in no way an indicator that any kind of head injury would have occurred without a helmet. It might have, but likely not have - otherwise we'd have very few Dutch and Danes in the world.


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## Gharp23 (Nov 27, 2012)

because they are egg heads


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

rkdvsm said:


> BUT they are stupid as people who also choose not to use headlights and taillights.


I have a nice collection of bells, NONE of which will fit on the 31.8mm handlebar that comes with most road bikes. So I shout "passing" (which more people seem to understand) whenever I'm overtaking a walker, runner, or other cyclist.

I do have a 600 lumen headlight that I run on strobe during the day and full power at night.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

InfiniteLoop said:


> A neurologist friend pointed out something interesting to me recently after his nephew came home from school having watched a demonstration by the local police of head damage by throwing a cantaloupe on to the floor "See what happened to that cantaloupe, that could be your head, if you ride a bike, wear a helmet" was the message. My friend then told me that your head can usually sustain greater impact than a foam helmet - what cracks a foam helmet may do nothing to your head. His point was not that helmets don't help (he encourages competitive cyclists to wear them), but that a cracked helmet is in no way an indicator that any kind of head injury would have occurred without a helmet. It might have, but likely not have - otherwise we'd have very few Dutch and Danes in the world.


So the MD's are just chasing another buck when they order a CT scan and hospitalize you overnight? That's a LOT of money for "no big deal."


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

gte105u said:


> Wow, since you're typing I assume you are more or less ok. Glad you had your lid.


Not mine- an Italian acquaintance posted it.


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## nolight (Oct 12, 2012)

Because it is bulky and hot and it does not look very fashionable when combined with anything other than pro-looking gear (cycling jersey/shorts) so given a choice, not wearing it is more comfortable.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2012)

Trek2.3 said:


> So the MD's are just chasing another buck when they order a CT scan and hospitalize you overnight? That's a LOT of money for "no big deal."


Both times I was involved in bike crashes that required medical attention afterward (broken hand in one case, severe heel bruise in another) I was able to demonstrate I didn't sustain any serious head impact by bringing in a relatively pristine helmet in both cases. In one of the cases I was told it's a good thing I was wearing on as I'd be dead otherwise . You're suggesting had I not been able to present such a helmet, they might've tried to soak my insurance company for expensive tests and overnight hospitalization. Good point.


I do regularly wear helmets, if for no other reason than to avoid road rash on my scalp, which sounds unpleasant, but do believe that their effectiveness in preventing head trauma in a high speed head impact (such as hitting a guard rail after being thrown OTB at 40mph, or or being broadsided by a car at high speed) is highly exaggerated.


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## adrianocastro (Dec 3, 2012)

A mate of mine used to claim that he didn’t like wearing helmets because it messed up his hair. I quickly pointed out his receding hairline. He’s a safer cyclist now.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

PhotonFreak said:


> I do regularly wear helmets, if for no other reason than to avoid road rash on my scalp, which sounds unpleasant, but do believe that their effectiveness in preventing head trauma in a high speed head impact (such as hitting a guard rail after being thrown OTB at 40mph, or or being broadsided by a car at high speed) is highly exaggerated.


I am under the opinion that if you hit a stationary (or worse yet object moving in the opposite direction) at 30+ mph, that helmet is not going to do a whole lot. It will boil down to how you hit the object. But for head bounce off the asphalt/concrete, which the speed has no bearing on how hard you hit flat ground merely now how long until you stop, it could be big. They also could help if a number of ways if you are moving slower. Much like wearing a seat belt, the time you need them the most is probably the time you are the least likely to wear them... simple around town stuff at low speeds are when most car accidents happen and when a helmet is probably most effective.


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

tlg said:


> Yea this is pretty stupid reasoning. Some people didn't pay attention in science class.
> When riding a bike, your head is at least 1m above the pavement. At a 1m (3.3ft) drop you'll be traveling at 4.4m/s (9.9mph). If you don't think your head needs protection from pavement at 9.9mph, all the power to you.


The two falls I had that almost did me in a couple of years ago were both at close to zero mph. One, a wheel caught in a manhole cover gap, the next, making a turn after an undetected snake bite flat on the front tire. Going from about 6' above ground to the pavement before you can blink does not end up well. And yes, helmets both times.


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## WaynefromOrlando (Mar 3, 2010)

Dave IV said:


> Stating that the source is 11 years in a level 3 trauma center means nothing. It almost seems to suggest that maybe your evidence is anecdotal. Let me see your data. Without data your just making up stuff.


The experience gained from 11 years in an emergency room elevates his information above "anecdotal". There have been many, many cases resolved through the use of "expert" testamony, and even PhD dissertations can use such information so long as the experience is properly documented.

The real irony is you probably believe you are entitled to the proper research, citations and documentation but you probably aren't qualified to sit on a dissertation panel to grade that information. And what part of an internet discussion board requires citations for any conclusions made in a posting? He even qualified his statement with "tends to be" and not "are".


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

nolight said:


> Because it is bulky and hot and it does not look very fashionable when combined with anything other than pro-looking gear (cycling jersey/shorts) so given a choice, not wearing it is more comfortable.


I know what you mean. That's why I never wear seat belts- they rumple my clothes and are so uncomfortable.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

nolight said:


> Because it is bulky and hot and it does not look very fashionable when combined with anything other than pro-looking gear (cycling jersey/shorts) so given a choice, not wearing it is more comfortable.


Should I assume from your user name that you ride after dark with "no light" because it detracts from the fashionable, clean lines of your ride?


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

I wear a helmet for two reasons only:

First, I get sick and tired of people calling me an idiot. I've had individuals tell me I'm not welcome to ride with informal groups without a helmet (clubs I understand). I quickly ot sick of having to TRY to enter into a rational discussion about the real - vs perceived - need for a helmet. I say TRY because it's very difficult to actually discuss this with people. Most have such a strong faith in their opinion (sort of like religion - faith without the need for proof or even doubt or questioning) that they actually think I'm stupid and often times actually call me stupid. 

Call this what it is, I'm succumbig to peer pressure. I'm ashamed of that aspect, but what the heck, it makes life easier.

Second - for me there's little downside. I don't find them uncomfortable at all. So the negatives don't even approach what I consider to be a very tiny value of a helmet.

Sometimes take a look a any helmet thread and look for two things.

1 - how soon the words "idiot" "stupid" "organ donor" and other personal attacks and slurs crop up. Usually within a dozen posts.
2 - note who uses the terms.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

WaynefromOrlando said:


> The experience gained from 11 years in an emergency room elevates his information above "anecdotal". There have been many, many cases resolved through the use of "expert" testamony, and even PhD dissertations can use such information so long as the experience is properly documented.
> 
> The real irony is you probably believe you are entitled to the proper research, citations and documentation but you probably aren't qualified to sit on a dissertation panel to grade that information. And what part of an internet discussion board requires citations for any conclusions made in a posting? He even qualified his statement with "tends to be" and not "are".


Meh, he was being a turd. Even if invested any effort in reinforcing my position, he struck me as a know-it-all and life has told me that they're not the type to learn. 

If it weren't for people doing stupid things and/or taking poor care of themselves, most hospitals would be out of business, eh?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

spade2you said:


> Meh, he was being a turd. Even if invested any effort in reinforcing my position, he struck me as a know-it-all and life has told me that they're not the type to learn.
> 
> If it weren't for people doing stupid things and/or taking poor care of themselves, most hospitals would be out of business, eh?


Dave has proven to be far below the curve in terms of intelligence. Don't even worry about it.

You're right though: people's own stupidity is what drives a fair amount of hospital revenue (in the ER department anyway.)


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> Dave has proven to be far below the curve in terms of intelligence. Don't even worry about it.
> 
> You're right though: people's own stupidity is what drives a fair amount of hospital revenue (in the ER department anyway.)


I was briefly annoyed, but it didn't take me too long to figure him out. 

I sometimes feel guilty that my income is based on stupidity and poor decisions. I suppose seeing a few people morbidly obese and having heart attacks in their early 30's while on rotation turned me into a health nut. 

Needless to say, my son will wear a helmet. I don't care what his friends think. He doesn't need to face plant like I did to learn _that_ lesson.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> Yes, I am.


Too funny!


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

spade2you said:


> With Cipo, it's 100% about the hair and he would take great risks that to avoid messing up his hair.


What about Pantani?

But seriously, Google Fabio Casartelli images and you'll want to wear your helmet more often...


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Firstly, you are a huge statistical anomaly if you've had your life saved twice because of wearing a helmet. Over 98% of cyclists in NL, Denmark, and other high cycling nations never wear helmets - they should all be dead by now.


What is the statistic for the Dutch and Danes that do suffer head impacts while cycling?

I often see this Dutch/Danish thing mentioned in this debate and find it strange that people seem to assume that conditions for cyclists are the same in these Northern European countries as they are in the U.S.

This is simply not a realistic comparison. First both of these countries have a cycling culture which has resulted not only in widespread use of bicycle lanes with seperate traffic lights in urban areas, but also more awareness by drivers (who often themselves ride bikes when not in thier cars). These factors are almost non-existant when you leave Northern Europe.

I can't speak for the Dutch, but I know the helmet debate is a "live" one in Denmark and the Danes are not all convinced that they going to ride sans helmets in the future.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bremerradkurier said:


> What about Pantani?
> ...


Cocaine is a hell of a drug.


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## MercRidnMike (Dec 19, 2006)

Although I typically ride with a helmet anyway, the reasoning was reinforced for me this last season. Contractor working on a paved trail milled (ground out) seveal bands to tie in a new overlay. Unfortuantely, someone forgot the trail was used regularly by cyclists and they didn't sign it....well, I made it through the first band, but the second was a lot deeper and I got chucked.

I hit hard enough to crack 3 ribs, bruise a kidney and break up the helmet pretty good. No signs of concussion or other head trauma other than a small bit of road rash and the embedded arm that snapped off my glasses frame...likely would have been a lot worse without a helmet.

Are helmets perfect for all situations....no. Are they needed for all situations....no. Are you going to be able to react fast enough to figure out if the situation needs it and whip one on in time....no. Might as well be prepared, but of course, YMMV.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

MercRidnMike said:


> ....Are helmets perfect for all situations....no. Are they needed for all situations....no. Are you going to be able to react fast enough to figure out if the situation needs it and whip one on in time....no. Might as well be prepared, but of course, YMMV.


Finally a rational and courteous statement by a helmet advocate who has a personal story to tell and has a reasonable opinion, stated well.

To me it's an assessment of the risk. We do not do everything we possibly could to eliminate every danger or possible injury in our lives, and I think it's reasonable to follow the same strategy with bicycles and helmets. I'm not denying that people crash and it may appear their helmets saved them injury - or could actually be a fact. But it's such an unlikely possibility that it's just not worth worrying about any more than falling in the tub or being struck by lightening or a runaway aged driver.

Again, I use the slippery parking lot or sidewalk example. In my life of riding a bike a lot and walking in winter conditions a lot, I've fallen and knocked my head a few times .... never on a bike. I've seen far, far more people fall down and knock their head at public ice and roller skating rinks than I've seen bike crashes - and I ride about 1,000X more than I skate. Based on my personal experience I should wear a helmet when walking in the winter as should every casual skater. And I don't care if anyone calls me a klutz as long as they apply the same standard to people who can't stay upright on bikes.... the only person I ever knew who died on a bike ride was wearing a helmet, and apparently just fell down - no collision, no sudden turn, no gravel on the road, etc. etc. A big fwiw of course.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Camilo said:


> Finally a rational and courteous statement by a helmet advocate who has a personal story to tell and has a reasonable opinion, stated well.
> 
> To me it's an assessment of the risk. We do not do everything we possibly could to eliminate every danger or possible injury in our lives, and I think it's reasonable to follow the same strategy with bicycles and helmets. I'm not denying that people crash and it may appear their helmets saved them injury - or could actually be a fact. *But it's such an unlikely possibility that it's just not worth worrying about any more than falling in the tub or being struck by lightening or a runaway aged driver.*
> 
> Again, I use the slippery parking lot or sidewalk example. In my life of riding a bike a lot and walking in winter conditions a lot, I've fallen and knocked my head a few times .... never on a bike. I've seen far, far more people fall down and knock their head at public ice and roller skating rinks than I've seen bike crashes - and I ride about 1,000X more than I skate. Based on my personal experience I should wear a helmet when walking in the winter as should every casual skater. And I don't care if anyone calls me a klutz as long as they apply the same standard to people who can't stay upright on bikes.... the only person I ever knew who died on a bike ride was wearing a helmet, and apparently just fell down - no collision, no sudden turn, no gravel on the road, etc. etc. A big fwiw of course.


Bold: You're flat out wrong. But that's ok. Ignorance is bliss.

Your whole argument is a big slippery slope, FWIW, of course. 

For that matter, not wearing a helmet while skating is stupid too.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

wasn't too long ago only dorks wore helmets skiing. Now everyone does...

Just saying.


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## cantride55 (Sep 19, 2008)

Two left hooks while cycling. Both times I t-boned the car /bus which cut in front of me. Both times I went through the window with my head. Both times my helmet was broken. To those who do not believe helmets protect your brains I say, ok. The first accident put me in a coma. Without a helmet, the doctors / nurses / physio / specialists and everyone else wonderd if I'd live and if I did whether I'd be as scrambled as eggs. I spend quite a while on a locked down brain injury unit where I saw and heard quite a few horrible things.
To be able to remember what day of the week it is, may not be important to you.Or what you ate for breakfast. To be able to remember what you went into the store to get sounds like a no-brainer, but what if you can't remember your childrens names? Brain injuries are scary. Think of helmets like airbags, they cushion the fall or impact.
From another side, brain injuries are very expensive to the health care system. They take months /years off your loved ones lives, watching, waiting and worrying about you.
But none of this will matter to you when you crash on a bike with no helmet if you hit your head the wrong way. You will be in a constant state of, duh. Loved ones will stand in front of you, dark circles under their eyes from lack of sleep, tears running down their face and if your lucky you will remember their names and wonder why they are there? Try asking one of them if they think a helmet may have helped. If you're lucky they will answer yes, if not they will ask you what your talking about?
Ya, helmets are overrated because maybe 1 in 10,000 will end up in a locked down brain injury unit from an accident, and we all know that it only happens to other people, not us. 
Don't wear them, but then please don't complain when the insurance company kicks your butt out of the system, drops you off at your house and says, "good luck, your claim has run out", and you can't even remember what pocket you put your keys in.


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## InfiniteLoop (Mar 20, 2010)

Trek2.3 said:


> So the MD's are just chasing another buck when they order a CT scan and hospitalize you overnight? That's a LOT of money for "no big deal."


Firstly, I'm not completely sure your comment relates to what I'd written, but yes, sometimes docs are just chasing another buck, well, actually trying to prevent loosing a bunch. When tests don't cost the doc or patient anything to do, the doc will order up all kinds of things out of a sometimes over abundance of caution to avoid malpractice problems.

All depends on the circumstances though. Sometimes there is very good reason to do a CT or other test, often times minimal reason, and sometimes not much reason at all. In these latter two a doc will be much less likely to order one if the patient is paying out of pocket for some or all of the cost.

If you know a radiologist ask them how many head CT's come back negative and how many positive.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> Bold: You're flat out wrong. But that's ok. Ignorance is bliss.
> 
> Your whole argument is a big slippery slope, FWIW, of course.
> 
> For that matter, not wearing a helmet while skating is stupid too.


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## joegrey8 (Dec 5, 2012)

I don't think I've ever climbed on a bike without a helmet on. It seems almost common sense to give yourself some form of protection. Think about it - motorcyclists are going through residential/urban areas at similar speeds to a medium/fast cyclist. They wear full leathers and full face helmets, while some chaps fire themselves around the streets and downhill with lycra and a cap. Now what protection does that give you if you crash? None. I can only think that people who don't wear helmets haven't looked at the bigger picture as to what they are letting themselves in for. I'm not saying that these people are wrong, I personally think it is silly not to try and give yourself a bit of a chance when that day that will inevitably come does come and you fall off.


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## InfiniteLoop (Mar 20, 2010)

joegrey8 said:


> I don't think I've ever climbed on a bike without a helmet on...


First, there's a dramatic difference in a motorcycle crash and bicycle crash, mainly about 550 lbs of extremely hot engine going down with you and on top of you. The average crash speed for motorcycle crashes is either 21 mph or 27 mph depending on which report you read, the average for a bicycle crash is 6 mph.

You are more likely to experience a head injury going up or down stairs than riding a bike, do you always wear a helmet when going up or down stairs?


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## vette (Feb 1, 2009)

Only dorks wear helmets.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

foto said:


> wasn't too long ago only dorks wore helmets skiing. Now everyone does...
> 
> Just saying.


Sonny all over the tree! :idea:


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## vette (Feb 1, 2009)

Dave IV said:


> Interesting statement...please site your sources, because I am skeptical. I frequently ride without a helmet. I have a generous health insurance policy and I have significant income, savings, and investments.
> 
> I really think you made up that statistic.


Same here..I agree ,the local news always reports more accidents happen at home ,if these kind of people had there way we'd be wearin safety suits 24-7 lookin like the michelin man.. you safety people need to see a psychiatrist.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

InfiniteLoop said:


> First, there's a dramatic difference in a motorcycle crash and bicycle crash, mainly about 550 lbs of extremely hot engine going down with you and on top of you. The average crash speed for motorcycle crashes is either 21 mph or 27 mph depending on which report you read, the average for a bicycle crash is 6 mph.
> 
> You are more likely to experience a head injury going up or down stairs than riding a bike, do you always wear a helmet when going up or down stairs?


By pure numerical occurrence, yes.

By statistical percentage? Nope.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

vette said:


> Same here..I agree ,the local news always reports more accidents happen at home ,if these kind of people had there way we'd be wearin safety suits 24-7 lookin like the michelin man.. you safety people need to see a psychiatrist.


And you need to take a remedial English course.


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## 8toes (Feb 28, 2010)

Woooo hooooooo!!! another helmet thread!


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## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

Why do people not wear helmets? Because they are stupid.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Not my head, not my problem.


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## stumpbumper (Jan 22, 2011)

I always wear a helmet when cycling but as has already been mentioned on this thread a number ot times, cyclists in some other countries do not. The below video is a good example of those who don't.

Bicycle Rush Hour - Jokeroo


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rider9 said:


> Why do people not wear helmets? Because they are stupid.


It's more rebellion than stupidity. Wearing a helmet or a seat belt is a good idea. Make it mandatory and we're one perpetual step closer to becoming Stalinists...or worse REPUBLICANS. (I keed, not as bad as Rethuglicans)


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

8toes said:


> Woooo hooooooo!!! another helmet thread!


Me too! Guilty addiction!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

ph0enix said:


> Not my head, not my problem.


It don't get no plainer than this.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

I don't wear a helmet because it broke when I crashed and hit my head.


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

Same reason I don't wear condoms. Feels so goooooooooooood.

Which reminds me, I've always been curious if surgeons ever slip out of their gloves when nobody is looking 'cause they love the way guts feel against their naked hands. Those dirty naughty doctors...


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

If you don't wear a helmet, you'll be lucky to live into your late 80s, whereas if you do wear a helmet you might have the good fortune to live that long.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

Camilo said:


> If you don't wear a helmet, you'll be lucky to live into your late 80s, whereas if you do wear a helmet you might have the good fortune to live that long.


... a sand full of sugar?


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## onthebottom (May 4, 2011)

As a native Minnesotan (now living in Ohio) I'm reminded of a late Governor (that Newsweek labled Governor Goofy) who, while a motorcycle helmet law was being debated said "if you don't wear a helmet you don't have much to protect"... about right.

I wear a seatbelt when I drive (in a car with airbags) and I have a couple of tons of steal around me when I'm going 40 MPH on 4 wheels....

OTB


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## esldude (Jan 3, 2009)

gte105u said:


> Here in this piddly town I live in (temporarily, here for work), I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet. You can tell cycling awareness is not a very big concern for most people, and I am also one of the few people who seem to cycle remotely seriously as well.
> 
> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


I have not read the rest of the thread. I hope you are not serious.

Without helmets biking might be twice as dangerous as driving a car. Perhaps no more dangerous if you avoid riding at night without lights or riding intoxicated. 

Yes, without a doubt helmets can save lives. I do wear one about half the time. 

But then again, helmets simply suck, I mean they suck big time. Where I live it is hot and highly humid. In the summer it is tough to wear one. You can, and you will not croak, but man even with good helmets it is a big detriment to enjoyment of cycling. 

Clearly the benefits of cycling sans helmet more than outweigh the possible bad consequences. And cycling with helmet will bend that ratio to the good even more. But the helmets suck. Did I say that already? Yes, but it bears repeating. Helmets suck really, really bad. 

I have considered putting up the $600 or so for the scarf that will work like an airbag in the event of a crash. Such protection is worthwhile. Otherwise helmets really, really suck big time.

You really really should kick yourself in your own a** for taking such a high and mighty better than thou attitude. Go eff yourself. 

The bigger proven benefit to cycling safety is more cyclists. The proven detractor to more cyclists is requiring a helmet. Having more unhelmeted cyclists will do more than having less helmeted cyclists for safety. Yes more helmeted cyclists will be better still, but human nature being what it is......go eff yourself again. 

If you want to wear a helmet, do so. It is a good thing. If you want to make others who don't wear one wear one then eff yourself (yet a third time). I don't even believe you are a troll. More the pity as a troll would realize the real deal and you don't.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

esldude said:


> I have not read the rest of the thread. I hope you are not serious.
> 
> Without helmets biking might be twice as dangerous as driving a car. Perhaps no more dangerous if you avoid riding at night without lights or riding intoxicated.
> 
> ...


No, they don't and no, it isn't.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*



esldude said:


> You really really should kick yourself in your own a** for taking such a high and mighty better than thou attitude. Go eff yourself.
> 
> The bigger proven benefit to cycling safety is more cyclists. The proven detractor to more cyclists is requiring a helmet. Having more unhelmeted cyclists will do more than having less helmeted cyclists for safety. Yes more helmeted cyclists will be better still, but human nature being what it is......go eff yourself again.
> 
> If you want to wear a helmet, do so. It is a good thing. If you want to make others who don't wear one wear one then eff yourself (yet a third time). I don't even believe you are a troll. More the pity as a troll would realize the real deal and you don't.


Enjoy your posting vacation. I suggest staying out of helmet threads in the future.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

I've always considered Europeans as being ahead of Americans, when it comes to transportation safety. Insofar as the use of helmets are concened when cycling, just take a look at all of the safety minded cyclists of Copenhagen, as they commute to their various destinations:

Commuter Cycling in Copenhagen - YouTube

Did you see all of the beautiful people of Copenhagen cycling while wearing helmets? 

.....And that's the way it is all over Europe!

BTW

Notice the stark absence of road racing styled bikes of any kind. They're practically all either city bikes, MTN bikes, or hybrids, with hardly any bikes with drops at all. 

OMG! How do they ever survive like that?


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## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

Yeah, but they have a nice wide bike lane. In the USA, there are bike lanes that seem to be optional for cars and buses to use. Helmets are a good idea if there are bicycle and car interactions. I work in DC. There are bike lanes, but they are not continuous, nor are they all that safe, because they are right next to DC traffic.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

rider9 said:


> Yeah, but they have a nice wide bike lane. In the USA, there are bike lanes that seem to be optional for cars and buses to use. Helmets are a good idea if there are bicycle and car interactions. I work in DC. There are bike lanes, but they are not continuous, nor are they all that safe, because they are right next to DC traffic.


Absolutely!....And that's why Europeans are more advanced than we are?

However IMO, at the outside chance that you get hit by a car, in most cases your helmet will be of little value to you. I've had three accidents so far. None of which my helmet would have saved me. I still wear one though, because you never can tell.


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## Germany_chris (Sep 9, 2009)

I don't wear one, I'll probably never wear one.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

rider9 said:


> Yeah, but they have a nice wide bike lane. In the USA, there are bike lanes that seem to be optional for cars and buses to use. Helmets are a good idea if there are bicycle and car interactions. I work in DC. There are bike lanes, but they are not continuous, nor are they all that safe, because they are right next to DC traffic.


how do you think the cars get in and out of those parking spots on the youtube clip?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

People who want to force others to wear helmets are the worst sort of people. You find them everywhere in society; passing laws to make 'sodomy' illegal, voting against gay marriage, trying to make abortion illegal again, running Homeowner Associations, picketing at soldier's funerals, etc.

Anyone who gives me crap about not wearing a helmet is immediately relegated to the group of people I want nothing to do with.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> *People who want to force others to wear helmets are the worst sort of people. You find them everywhere in society; passing laws to make 'sodomy' illegal, voting against gay marriage, trying to make abortion illegal again, running Homeowner Associations, picketing at soldier's funerals, etc.*
> Anyone who gives me crap about not wearing a helmet is immediately relegated to the group of people I want nothing to do with.


Since when are the helmet people Evil CEO Republians/Tea Party?


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Germany_chris said:


> I don't wear one, I'll probably never wear one.


Please verify your branch of service's policy on helmet-less bike crashes in line-of-duty determinations.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Since when are the helmet people Evil CEO Republians/Tea Party?


I think the helmet nazis are the evil, controlling people of the Democrat party.

Republicans go after sex - they want to control ALL the sex (or abolish it). Democrats want to protect everyone from themselves (Nanny-State). In the end, it's the same personality type... overly concerned about what others are doing and a deep-seated need to control it.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

And yet another helmet thread goes down the predictable path.

Next up--seat wedges. Valuable tool, or Uber Fred? :lol:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mpre53 said:


> And yet another helmet thread goes down the predictable path.
> 
> Next up--seat wedges. Valuable tool, or Uber Fred? :lol:


Don't MAKE my friend throw my phone!


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

I welcome anyone who wants to remove themselves from the gene pool early. We'd all also certainly welcome you volunteering not to become a SSI/disability tax burden after your paralysis.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Wow this thread keeps on kicking!

Why do people not wear helmets?
Hmmmm, let me summerize:

1) They do not believe helmets make you any safer,
2) They do not like wearing helmets,
3) They believe a bicycle helmet makes you look like a dork,
4) They have a family member that has riden a bike for many years and never ever sustained a head injury while doing so,
5) They don't want the hassle,
6) Wearing a helmet is politically correct ergo They refuse to wear a helmet,
7) People who live in countries with a sophisticated bike lane system and a history of cycling don't wear them (this proves that riding without a helmet is safe), so they don't feel they need to wear them in a country without that infrastructure,
8) Helmets mess up your hair and are too hot,
9) Apple has not yet made the iHelmet so they can listen to music during the group ride,
10) Helmet safety is like Global Warming - totally unproven - obvious, but unproven.

I think that about sums it up.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

SauronHimself said:


> I welcome anyone who wants to remove themselves from the gene pool early. We'd all also certainly welcome you volunteering not to become a SSI/disability tax burden after your paralysis.


If you've ever waded in the shallow gene pool of humans, you would already know that it's much too cold for us to be truly concerned about how others prepare themselves to cycle within it.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

I wish the internet would just come to an agreement on helmet or no helmet so I do not have to make my own decisions.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

Well this thread is one that was dredged up from the past. For those who are just joining in (or do not recall) and did not read the whole thread, I did later state my OP tone was too "high-and-mighty" and I recanted on that.

To be clear, I am not for adults being forced to wear helmets. I firmly believe that people have the right to do with their body as they please, which includes seat belts, helmets, and any number of other things (some which would sound liberal and some that would sound conservative). But I still think the reasons an adult would not wear a helmet are weak excuses in line with the excuses made to not wear a seat belt. I admit there have been times where I have not worn one on short rides, but 99% of the time I have one on. That includes in hot/humid Louisiana summer, so that excuse does not hold water.

Where I do think there should be more focus is on children wearing helmets. Kids are much more likely to crash, more likely to do something stupid, and less likely to know the consequences of their actions. They are not old enough to make that decision, and I think that if a parent is not going to force the issue with their child the law should. But that is my personal opinion, people have the right to disagree in a civil manner.

BTW, people who make personal judgements such as a person is "evil" simply based upon differing opinions for relatively minor things really should adjust their perspective. That is the problem with this country, no one wants to listen to other people's POV without jumping to extremes and personal attacks. When did compromise and healthy discourse on a subject completely disappear from this country?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SauronHimself said:


> I welcome anyone who wants to remove themselves from the gene pool early. We'd all also certainly welcome you volunteering not to become a SSI/disability tax burden after your paralysis.


As long as you promise to not become a burden by having too many kids (increases IN property taxes to pay for schools) or suffering a head injury when you trip on a sidewalk...


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> As long as you promise to not become a burden by having too many kids


Don't worry. I'm not Catholic. I can't say the same for my older cousin Becky who has 14 children now.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

SauronHimself said:


> I welcome anyone who wants to remove themselves from the gene pool early. We'd all also certainly welcome you volunteering not to become a SSI/disability tax burden after your paralysis.


Ah, the name calling and health care straw man! So original!


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

> Ah, the name calling and health care straw man! So original!


I know man! What can't they come up with something new?


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## tom93r1 (Jul 19, 2009)

More than just slightly reducing the impact of brain to skull, helmets distribute the force of impact across entire skull. If you have ever been wearing your helmet and hit your head on something above and noticed it didn't hurt nearly the way it hurts when your bare scalp hits it then you will know this concept. 

I never wore a helmet the first 20 years of my life, then in the mid 90's I bought a new mountain bike and helmet. Haven't ridden since without one. Can't say I have had any mishaps where the helmet saved my life, but that first one is the most important.


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## JasonLopez (Aug 19, 2012)

First impact areas by percentage of likeliness.

View attachment 279309


I don't wear a helmet on a bicycle. That's also none of your damn business, busy body.


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## torch511 (Mar 4, 2012)

tom93r1 said:


> helmets distribute the force of impact across entire skull


No they don't though they do spread the impact over a wider area.

I wear 99% of the time. Sometimes when I go to the neighborhood store I'll skip, however I don't knock anyone for NOT wearing one. That is their right. I make plenty of bad decisions in life. Don't criticize me for mine, I won't criticize you for yours.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Bill2 said:


> I know man! What can't they come up with something new?


Originally Posted by SauronHimself View Post
I welcome anyone who wants to remove themselves from the gene pool early. We'd all also certainly welcome you volunteering not to become a SSI/disability tax burden after your paralysis.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

JasonLopez said:


> I don't wear a helmet on a bicycle. That's also none of your damn business, busy body.


Do you just like to pick fights with roadies or something?


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

I just went on a ride with a bunch of Japanese nationals. It was a 25 mile fun ride designed as an ice breaker to meet this seasons' cyclists. About half were wearing helmets. Those who did not wear helmets said they felt safe without one. To paraphrase, they are basically not concerned with other vehicles as people in Japan are much more courteous drivers. I think the mentality here is that bicycles have been around longer and they are a cherished tradition; people just respect bicycles and cyclists more. 

I remember when my wife and I would ride in New York and during one ride we had 2 motorcycles come up beside us and just crank the throttle and a car honk his horn right beside us and flipped us a birdie even though we were not hogging the road and were following the rules of the rode. We nearly crashed, and to make matters scarier, at that time we didn't know that my wife was pregnant. Granted these incidents were rare, but it just soured our impression of recreational cycling in the US.

So in closing, you wear a helmet when you go to war, or cycle in the US. Period. It's optional in places where cyclists are well-respected. This is my opinion only. As an ex-pat, I have not gone back to the States for some time. Have the respect for cyclists increased over the past 5 years?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Friend of mine got clipped by a car about 2 hours ago. I don't think he's complaining about wearing his helmet. Driver didn't even stop, either.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

Tachycardic said:


> I just went on a ride with a bunch of Japanese nationals. It was a 25 mile fun ride designed as an ice breaker to meet this seasons' cyclists. About half were wearing helmets. Those who did not wear helmets said they felt safe without one. To paraphrase, they are basically not concerned with other vehicles as people in Japan are much more courteous drivers. I think the mentality here is that bicycles have been around longer and they are a cherished tradition; people just respect bicycles and cyclists more.
> 
> I remember when my wife and I would ride in New York and during one ride we had 2 motorcycles come up beside us and just crank the throttle and a car honk his horn right beside us and flipped us a birdie even though we were not hogging the road and were following the rules of the rode. We nearly crashed, and to make matters scarier, at that time we didn't know that my wife was pregnant. Granted these incidents were rare, but it just soured our impression of recreational cycling in the US.
> 
> So in closing, you wear a helmet when you go to war, or cycle in the US. Period. It's optional in places where cyclists are well-respected. This is my opinion only. As an ex-pat, I have not gone back to the States for some time. Have the respect for cyclists increased over the past 5 years?


I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Glad to hear that everything went fine, but I agree. It's a shame that that US drivers cannot respect cyclists as they do in Japan and some other countries.


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## thehotsung (Apr 19, 2013)

To me riding a helmet is like putting on a seat belt. It not a must but I rather be safe then sorry. Beside there are some fancy looking helmet. I'm currently sporting a bontrager helmet and they are awesome looking!


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Friend of mine got clipped by a car about 2 hours ago. I don't think he's complaining about wearing his helmet. Driver didn't even stop, either.



Hope he/she is OK!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Squrkey said:


> Hope he/she is OK!


Couple bent components, a few broken spokes, some bruises, and a scuffed helmet. Doing fine for being clipped by a SUV.


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## DocRogers (Feb 16, 2006)

I've been a fairly committed cyclist for 15 years and a motorcyclist for 34 years. Never get on either one without a helmet. Most of the time the helmet is not needed (I don't crash much), but a few years ago I had two incidents about a month apart, one on a motorcycle and one on a bicycle, when my helmet clearly saved my from a serious injury. My bicycle helmet broke from the impact, which is better than breaking my skull. 

What others choose to do is not my problem.


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## Roadone (Jun 18, 2011)

Because bike helmets are gay and people laugh at you


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

Translate your question to dutch and post it on a dutch forum.
View attachment 279420

And this is from LBL recon.


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## DaveW88 (Sep 3, 2006)

Although I wear a helmet when road riding I don't have much confidence in its effectiveness. Helmets may prevent superficial injuries such as lacerations but they will not prevent brain injury if you hit your head hard enough. The reason is the standards used to certify helmets. In order to pass the standard the helmet lining has to be so stiff that it does not significantly reduce the impact forces to a human head. Proof of this can be seen in the many anecdotes where people say "my helmet cracked in two.." Well the reason it cracked is because it did not cushion the impact of the skull hitting the inside of the helmet. An effective helmet would reduce the impact and remain intact.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

Tachycardic said:


> . Granted these incidents were rare, but it just soured our impression of recreational cycling in the US.
> 
> So in closing, you wear a helmet when you go to war, or cycle in the US. Period. It's optional in places where cyclists are well-respected. This is my opinion only. As an ex-pat, I have not gone back to the States for some time. Have the respect for cyclists increased over the past 5 years?


Did you know that the safety bike has been around in America longer that Japan? Have you checked the IRT cycling accidents in Japan vs. US? It is nice how people who are to lazy to check statistics emphatically state that it is their opinion only. Try doing some research.


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## El-Carpaso (Apr 16, 2013)

Squrkey said:


> Did you know that the safety bike has been around in America longer that Japan? Have you checked the IRT cycling accidents in Japan vs. US? It is nice how people who are to lazy to check statistics emphatically state that it is their opinion only. Try doing some research.


I'm assuming you have these statistics somewhere and you're going to show them to us any day now?

Or are you just saying?


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## El-Carpaso (Apr 16, 2013)

And to accompany my previous post I found some statistics about both countries.
Apparently people dying in bicycle accidents is about the same amount in both countries (~600 people yearly)
The USA has a population of 300 million people, japan has a population of 130 million people. USA has 2.3 times more people than Japan. So when looking at these statistics it would seem that the USA is in fact much safer as a cycling country.

But here cometh the twist!
overall trips made by bicycle in the US: 1%
overall trips made by bicycle in Japan: 15%

Now I don't have the time to do the math, but to me it seems clear that cycling is much safer in Japan. If the US had the same amount of overall trips made by bicycle it would be a different story but now, the results are crushing


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## Rekless1 (Aug 23, 2012)

El-Carpaso said:


> And to accompany my previous post I found some statistics about both countries.
> Apparently people dying in bicycle accidents is about the same amount in both countries (~600 people yearly)
> The USA has a population of 300 million people, japan has a population of 130 million people. USA has 2.3 times more people than Japan. So when looking at these statistics it would seem that the USA is in fact much safer as a cycling country.
> 
> ...


Yea but there are like 250 millions cars in the US and like what, 50 mil in Japan ?


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

DaveW88 said:


> Well the reason it cracked is because it did not cushion the impact of the skull hitting the inside of the helmet.


The reason it cracked is because it was deformed when the head or the test weight inside was pushed up against it on impact. That deformation, although it happens in split second, is what cushions from inside and spreads out the force from outside so that it reduces the kinetic energy to the head.


> An effective helmet would reduce the impact and remain intact.


And would weigh more, like football helmet. You are supposed to replace bicycle helmet after a crash which the helmet took its load.


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## El-Carpaso (Apr 16, 2013)

Rekless1 said:


> Yea but there are like 250 millions cars in the US and like what, 50 mil in Japan ?


That actually doesn't contradict my post at all.
Less cars can possibly mean safer cycling in general.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

superg said:


> Translate your question to dutch and post it on a dutch forum.
> .


Answer translated: Americans are so primitive and fear mongers. We are so sophisticated and highly educated. Let's have a smoke and celebrate socialized medicine while everything is highly taxed. Americans are so stupid.


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## Rekless1 (Aug 23, 2012)

El-Carpaso said:


> That actually doesn't contradict my post at all.
> Less cars can possibly mean safer cycling in general.


I thought the point was comparing accident stats in the 2 countries based on common variables.

Can't do that if the variables aren't common.

Number of bikes, number of commuters, number of cars on the road etc...

 It's a stats kinda thingy.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

El-Carpaso said:


> I'm assuming you have these statistics somewhere and you're going to show them to us any day now?
> 
> Or are you just saying?


Try not to assume or read into my post and you will be rewarded the simple clarity of what I wrote.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

squrkey said:


> try not to assume or read into my post and you will be rewarded the simple asshattery of what i wrote.


fify....


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## El-Carpaso (Apr 16, 2013)

Rekless1 said:


> I thought the point was comparing accident stats in the 2 countries based on common variables.
> 
> Can't do that if the variables aren't common.
> 
> ...


I actually tried finding more different variables about the two countries, like the overall trips made per year, and deaths per billion miles driven etc. which would have given more insight to the matter. Turns out findind statistics about japan is more challenging than I have patience for.

What really matters is overall trips made per year. If the Japanese only sit at their homes or work one street away (they don't of course) the overall trips made will be much less than in the US and that will have to be accounted for in the comparison. The amount of cars or other transportation devices per capita doesn't matter per se, but rather how much they are being used.

If one really wants to go to detail one would have to compare population density and traffic demographics in high population/rural areas, legislation and enforcement etc. But that is enough material for a Ph.D study. 
I'll just go and assume that according to this limited data cycling is actually safer in Japan than it is in the US.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bvber said:


> The reason it cracked is because it was deformed when the head or the test weight inside was pushed up against it on impact. That deformation, although it happens in split second, is what cushions from inside and spreads out the force from outside so that it reduces the kinetic energy to the head.


like bottoming out the struts in a car?


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> fify....


Thanks, thats what I meant to say, it is refreshing when someone can actually interpret what I meant.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Squrkey said:


> Did you know that the safety bike has been around in America longer that Japan? Have you checked the IRT cycling accidents in Japan vs. US? It is nice how people who are to lazy to check statistics emphatically state that it is their opinion only. Try doing some research.


You're absolutely right. It IS my opinion, which was based of some cyclists that I talked to. Take it with a grain of salt, but don't underestimate the power of perception.

And does it really matter who had the "safety bike" longer? I think what really matters is how bicycling has nearly completely given way to the automobile as the preferred mode of transportation in the US. One may think that there are lots of cyclists in the US, but in reality, we're rare enough to be considered either a novelty or a nuisance in many places. At least where I'm currently living, the bicycle is still a very important and common mode of transportation. I think this has helped shape a friendly and more respected attitude towards anyone on a bicycle, be it an 80 year old woman returning from the supermarket, a school-aged child going to school, or a cyclist in full kit out for a nice 50 miler. Either way, I do think that wearing a helmet is a smart thing to do no matter where you ride.

Oh, and it should be too lazy as opposed to "to lazy". FIFY.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Tachycardic said:


> You're absolutely right. It IS my opinion, which was based of some cyclists that I talked to. Take it with a grain of salt, but don't underestimate the power of perception.
> 
> And does it really matter who had the "safety bike" longer? I think what really matters is how bicycling has nearly completely given way to the automobile as the preferred mode of transportation in the US. One may think that there are lots of cyclists in the US, but in reality, we're rare enough to be considered either a novelty or a nuisance in many places. At least where I'm currently living, the bicycle is still a very important and common mode of transportation. I think this has helped shape a friendly and more respected attitude towards anyone on a bicycle, be it an 80 year old woman returning from the supermarket, a school-aged child going to school, or a cyclist in full kit out for a nice 50 miler. Either way, I do think that wearing a helmet is a smart thing to do no matter where you ride.
> 
> Oh, and it should be too lazy as opposed to "to lazy". FIFY.


anecdotes are fun. a guy just complained that after two weeks in texas with polite drivers and no troubles he almost got clipped by a jackass in one of the european countries touted as heavens for cyclists. 
guess anecdotes are pretty useless for any kind of big picture.


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## 98koukile (Mar 15, 2013)

I don't wear a helmet simply because I've yet to try one on that fits worth a damn, $75 biking helmets and they can't figure out a way to make the straps more comfortable for something you wear multiple times a week? I'm not ready to drop hundreds on a helmet yet but I do understand the importance, my carbon fiber motorcycle helmet cost $650 and is one of the safest helmets made. Maybe I'll give it another go trying on another dozen helmets.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

Tachycardic said:


> You're absolutely right. It IS my opinion, which was based of some cyclists that I talked to. Take it with a grain of salt, but don't underestimate the power of perception.
> 
> And does it really matter who had the "safety bike" longer? I think what really matters is how bicycling has nearly completely given way to the automobile as the preferred mode of transportation in the US. One may think that there are lots of cyclists in the US, but in reality, we're rare enough to be considered either a novelty or a nuisance in many places. At least where I'm currently living, the bicycle is still a very important and common mode of transportation. I think this has helped shape a friendly and more respected attitude towards anyone on a bicycle, be it an 80 year old woman returning from the supermarket, a school-aged child going to school, or a cyclist in full kit out for a nice 50 miler. Either way, I do think that wearing a helmet is a smart thing to do no matter where you ride.
> 
> Oh, and it should be too lazy as opposed to "to lazy". FIFY.


OK too lazy, anywho I understand your points. I think the world likes to spot light on the negative aspects of the US, too err is too human, rifht ? Your limited experience in New York city should not paint the whole picture of the entire US. The US is large and multi-cultured, even in Japan there are huge culture variances region to region. To answer your question, I think that cycling awareness has increased in metro areas across the US, but I doubt that respect by non-cyclist has increased. But I bet you can find places in the US with with courteos drivers with the mentality where people respect cyclists as much as in Japan.


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## Anant (Nov 28, 2012)

Many people feel helmets like a burden. It is the main reason among adult specially. I don't why people are not alert about their precious life.


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## simondr70 (Apr 24, 2013)

The ones who dont wear helmet end up getting killed in accidents thus cleaning the gene line of more evolved intelligent cyclist that wear helmets . Enforced by law or not , i dont give a rats a**s about politics after 35 years of commuting and 4 accidents im still gonna wear one .


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

simondr70 said:


> The ones who dont wear helmet end up getting killed in accidents *thus cleaning the gene line of more evolved intelligent cyclist that wear helmets .* Enforced by law or not , i dont give a rats a**s about politics after 35 years of commuting and 4 accidents im still gonna wear one .


I wonder why helmet advocates always resort to insults and name-calling when talking about those who simply are making a very reasonable choice not to bother with a helmet based on the extremely low chance of being hurt riding a bike. For some reason, just because they happen, for whatever reason, to think that cycing is so dangerous as to require a helmet, they have the opinion that those who do not share that opinion are stupid.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Camilo said:


> I wonder why *helmet advocates* always resort to insults and name-calling when talking about those who simply are making a very reasonable choice not to bother with a helmet based on the extremely low chance of being hurt riding a bike. For some reason, just because they happen, for whatever reason, to think that cycing is so dangerous as to require a helmet, they have the opinion that those who do not share that opinion are stupid.


It's so weird seeing the term "helmet advocates"... as if there are people out there who are against their use in general. I can understand someone personally not using a helmet for whatever silly/stupid reason, but to advocate against helmets generally? What? ... Why?

It's like reading, "common sense advocates"... I mean, really now?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Camilo said:


> I wonder why helmet advocates always resort to insults and name-calling when talking about those who simply are making a very reasonable choice not to bother with a helmet based on the extremely low chance of being hurt riding a bike.


Because parroting what you have been told to think breeds ignorance and the inability to think for oneself.


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## simondr70 (Apr 24, 2013)

velodog said:


> Because parroting what you have been told to think breeds ignorance and the inability to think for oneself.


I dont give a rats a*s about advocacy, politics, enforced laws, im a 35 year commuter and up to 4 accidents that i wouldn't have biked away if i wasn't wearing a helmet at that time, if you do not like what i write so be it, eventually you will learn how it feels to smash a windshield with your bare head ! Here try this without a helmet :mad2: .


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

simondr70 said:


> , eventually you will learn how it feels to smash a windshield with your bare head !.


That eventuallity has come, twice. Wasn't wearing a helmet either time yet there was no major damage to my head. Cuts to my face and a little safety glass picked out of my scalp was all of the damage above my neck in both accidents.
Contusions, road rash, cuts, bruising and a fractured pelvis in the worse of the two, but no concussions.

The lesser accident was a kid giving me a left hook while I was at almost 20mph and the worse one I got ass ended by a drunk who, it was estimated, was traveling at 70mph.

Oh, and I've also been in a few accidents where cars weren't involved, with and without a helmet. A broken left collar bone and a torn and seperated right shoulder with a torn rotator cuff thrown in, just for good measure. Along with numerous cuts, scrapes, bruises and the like. Even cracked a helmet once, but in none of those accidents was my life threatened with a head injury.

Yes, there are crippling head injuries and head injuries that end in death, but if your head takes that hard of a hit, with a helmet, there is still going to be major damage.

Is a helmet a good idea? Sure, but it probably does a better job of protecting us from cuts and bruises than it does saving our lives.

And since you found it important to bring your age into the equation, I'm 59. Just so you know.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

simondr70 said:


> I dont give a rats a*s about advocacy, politics, enforced laws, im a 35 year commuter and up to *4 accidents that i wouldn't have biked away if i wasn't wearing a helmet at that time*, if you do not like what i write so be it, eventually you will learn how it feels to smash a windshield with your bare head ! Here try this without a helmet :mad2: .


You'd think someone who either IS a 35 year old commuter OR has commuted for 35 years would at least be old enough to use grammar in such a way that others could understand him...

As for the bold part...
You would need to replicate the accident EXACTLY without wearing a helmet to know if you would have biked away or not. You have no way of knowing if a helmet helped or not.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

velodog said:


> That eventuallity has come, twice. Wasn't wearing a helmet either time yet there was no major damage to my head. Cuts to my face and a little safety glass picked out of my scalp was all of the damage above my neck in both accidents.
> Contusions, road rash, cuts, bruising and a fractured pelvis in the worse of the two, but no concussions.
> 
> The lesser accident was a kid giving me a left hook while I was at almost 20mph and the worse one I got ass ended by a drunk who, it was estimated, was traveling at 70mph.
> ...


How could you possibly know that when your helmet was cracked you wouldn't have had a life threatening head injury without it? I don't think there's a way you could know this. I've been in accidents that left my helmet damaged and came to a very different conclusion - that the only reason I don't have a huge gash in my skull is because it's in the helmet instead.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

bayAreaDude said:


> How could you possibly know that when your helmet was cracked you wouldn't have had a life threatening head injury without it? I don't think there's a way you could know this. I've been in accidents that left my helmet damaged and came to a very different conclusion - that the only reason I don't have a huge gash in my skull is because it's in the helmet instead.


A helmet occupies space that your head does not. During a crash, your head might not come within 2" of the pavement if you weren't wearing a helmet, but a helmet occupies that 2" of space, so the crack and the resulting headache would be a direct result OF wearing a helmet.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

bayAreaDude said:


> How could you possibly know that when your helmet was cracked you wouldn't have had a life threatening head injury without it? I don't think there's a way you could know this. I've been in accidents that left my helmet damaged and came to a very different conclusion - that the only reason I don't have a huge gash in my skull is because it's in the helmet instead.


Easy, it was minor damage to the helmet. 

How could you know that your broken helmet would have ended with a huge gash in your skull if you weren't wearing it? 
I don't think that there's a way that you could know this.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> A helmet occupies space that your head does not. During a crash, your head might not come within 2" of the pavement if you weren't wearing a helmet, but a helmet occupies that 2" of space, so the crack and the resulting headache would be a direct result OF wearing a helmet.


That scenario is unlikely. It would require your head to be travelling absolutely parallel to whatever the solid object is in 3 dimensional space. It's more likely your head is following a path at some angle that would close that 2" gap in nanoseconds in which case your head is gonna make impact. Plus I think grazing an object like you're suggesting would scratch the helmet, not crack it as old boy said happened - that would take more force.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Cableguy said:


> It's so weird seeing the term "helmet advocates"... as if there are people out there who are against their use in general. I can understand someone personally not using a helmet for whatever silly/stupid reason, but to advocate against helmets generally? What? ... Why?
> 
> It's like reading, "common sense advocates"... I mean, really now?


Well, you can search on every post I've ever written on this silly subject, and I've never said anyone ever advocated against helmets. In fact, helmet advocates (proper use of the term, by the way) often use the term "anti-helmet" as if those who make the choice not to use one are somehow against others using them - another silly and false argument the helmet advocates make.

Is the word "advocate" somehow offensive? It really is not. People really do advocate for helmet use, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't assume that those who don't use them are stupid for some reason.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

View attachment 279699


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Camilo said:


> I've never said anyone ever advocated against helmets.


You didn't need to. But anyways you're using the term "helmet advocates" to imply there is actually a credible flip side to general helmet use while biking... I guess this helps you justify and feel better about your own personal decision not to use a helmet? It's like referring to people who believe the earth isn't flat as, "round earth advocates" ... it's unnecessary, and funny.



Camilo said:


> In fact, helmet advocates (proper use of the term, by the way) ... Is the word "advocate" somehow offensive?


I didn't take offense to the word, I actually found its usage funny.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

gte105u said:


> Here in this piddly town I live in (temporarily, here for work), I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet. You can tell cycling awareness is not a very big concern for most people, and I am also one of the few people who seem to cycle remotely seriously as well.
> 
> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


Self-consciousness, fear of ridicule, poor self-esteem. They usually try to hide these feelings through arguments about helmet ineffectiveness, discomfort. No one else is fooled by it though.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Bill2 said:


> Self-consciousness, fear of ridicule, poor self-esteem. They usually try to hide these feelings through arguments about helmet ineffectiveness, discomfort. No one else is fooled by it though.


Or simply because they don't like them and don't want to wear one....


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## Danstheman (Apr 5, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> People who want to force others to wear helmets are the worst sort of people. You find them everywhere in society; passing laws to make 'sodomy' illegal, voting against gay marriage, trying to make abortion illegal again, running Homeowner Associations, picketing at soldier's funerals, etc.
> 
> Anyone who gives me crap about not wearing a helmet is immediately relegated to the group of people I want nothing to do with.


This. Do not tread on me or anybody, and yes i wear a helmet. If you don't, I dont care.


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## Roadone (Jun 18, 2011)

Danstheman said:


> This. Do not tread on me or anybody, and yes i wear a helmet. If you don't, I dont care.



Best answers so far! as in the overall thread...People don't want to wear helmets just because they don't like them or the effects from having something on their head. No right or wrong just a simple choice that the person makes. No one should ever belittle anyone for making a choice for themselves.

Unless you voted for Obama!! AHAHAHAHAHAHHHH!!!


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## testpilot (Aug 20, 2010)

gte105u said:


> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet?


Because they're dumb ****s. Let's hope they crash and weed themselves out of the universe of dumb ****s.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

testpilot said:


> Because they're dumb ****s. Let's hope they crash and weed themselves out of the universe of dumb ****s.


This reply demonstrates a pot-kettle situation...


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

testpilot said:


> Because they're dumb ****s. Let's hope they crash and weed themselves out of the universe of dumb ****s.


I have a better idea, lets hope that no one crashes, and cyclist regardless of helmet status continue to inspire others to join in our pedal quest. Peace be with you.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Roadone said:


> Best answers so far! as in the overall thread...People don't want to wear helmets just because they don't like them or the effects from having something on their head. No right or wrong just a simple choice that the person makes. No one should ever belittle anyone for making a choice for themselves.
> 
> Unless you voted for Obama!! AHAHAHAHAHAHHHH!!!


Agreed, as long as they carry a copy of their Do Not Resuscitate order. Why should the public be forced to pay for their long term nursing home vegetative care?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Bill2 said:


> Agreed, as long as they carry a copy of their Do Not Resuscitate order. Why should the public be forced to pay for their long term nursing home vegetative care?


same argument used by some car drivers against _any_ cycling on public roads. glad you found your soul mates.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

den bakker said:


> same argument used by some car drivers against _any_ cycling on public roads. glad you found your soul mates.


Given the cost of wearing a helmet (discomfort I guess?) is bit less than the cost of not riding on public roads (never riding your bike) it doesn't seem a comparable argument.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

> same argument used by some car drivers against _any_ cycling on public roads. glad you found your soul mates.


Agreed, cyclists should be prohibited from public roads. There are bike trails in the parks, etc for that sort of leisure time activity.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

Bill2 said:


> Agreed, as long as they carry a copy of their Do Not Resuscitate order. Why should the public be forced to pay for their long term nursing home vegetative care?


If a helmet provides a greater chance of survival, then an helmet wearing cyclist would potentially cost the public more money.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bayAreaDude said:


> Given the cost of wearing a helmet (discomfort I guess?) is bit less than the cost of not riding on public roads (never riding your bike) it doesn't seem a comparable argument.


ride the bike on a trainer. or be a paraplegic vegetative state waiting to happen.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

den bakker said:


> ride the bike on a trainer. or be a paraplegic vegetative state waiting to happen.


One could still slip while getting on/off the trainer. Safest choice is a Barcalounger.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

den bakker said:


> ride the bike on a trainer. or be a paraplegic vegetative state waiting to happen.


And stay off rollers. :lol:


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## Old but ALIVE (Apr 27, 2013)

People generally do what they want to do regardless of their reasoning. People who don't wear helmets just don't want to. It really is that simple. All of the justifications is simply editorializing.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Old but ALIVE said:


> People generally do what they want to do regardless of their reasoning. People who don't wear helmets just don't want to. It really is that simple. All of the justifications is simply editorializing.


Scary. Most people I know decide what they want to do by reasoning.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

whoever brought this thread back to life must not have been wearing a helmet

brought to you by the same people who require wheel reflectors and lawyer lips on the forks of all bikes sold.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

> Agreed, as long as they carry a copy of their Do Not Resuscitate order. Why should the public be forced to pay for their long term nursing home vegetative care?





> same argument used by some car drivers against _any_ cycling on public roads. glad you found your soul mates.





> Given the cost of wearing a helmet (discomfort I guess?) is bit less than the cost of not riding on public roads (never riding your bike) it doesn't seem a comparable argument.


Maybe not comparable, but still, the whole "long term medical cost" thing is just silly for anyone who can understand relative risks and costs of various things people do. OK, I'll give you one comparison to keep in mind: a population of people who ride a bike regularly, but without helmets compared to a similar population of people who are lazy, fat slobs who eat crap. Which costs the health care system more? Why single out non-helmeted cyclists when the chance of them costing the health care system a cent due to brain injury is incredibly tiny, and probably counteracted statistically because they are less obese and have better cardio pulmonary health.

Tell me you don't do a single thing, for which you have a choice, that doesn't negatively impact your health in some tiny way... sort of like riding without a helmet might negatively impact your health in a tiny way.

Sheesh. At least think of something original.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Camilo said:


> Maybe not comparable, but still, the whole "long term medical cost" thing is just silly for anyone who can understand relative risks and costs of various things people do. OK, I'll give you one comparison to keep in mind: a population of people who ride a bike regularly, but without helmets compared to a similar population of people who are lazy, fat slobs who eat crap. Which costs the health care system more? Why single out non-helmeted cyclists when the chance of them costing the health care system a cent due to brain injury is incredibly tiny, and probably counteracted statistically because they are less obese and have better cardio pulmonary health.
> 
> Tell me you don't do a single thing, for which you have a choice, that doesn't negatively impact your health in some tiny way... sort of like riding without a helmet might negatively impact your health in a tiny way.
> 
> Sheesh. At least think of something original.


People that smoke and eat bad and are lazy pay higher life insurance premiums for those choices. Some cities like San Francisco charge an additional tax on cigarettes and crappy food or even prohibt choices like this through legislation such as banning trans fats. I don't think the intent of the thread was to identify all the poor choices people can make and who pays for them - it's a cycling site so naturally opinions on the choice of not wearing a helmet come up. And yeah, nothing original about it nor is there any need to come up with an original argument - it's not an art contest. I'm sure during our lifetime it will be mandatory on public roads just like for motorcycles - not an if, but a when.


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## simondr70 (Apr 24, 2013)

You can be politicall about it reflect on the laws in place and to be but bottom line when you hit your head and you dont have a helmet on it freakin hurts recently i crashed again and i had my helmet on and after in inspect it theres was a surface dent to it im thankfull the helmet took the hit cuz i would have end up with a gash and 5 stitches or more at the Hospital.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

bayAreaDude said:


> And yeah, nothing original about it nor is there any need to come up with an original argument - it's not an art contest. I'm sure during our lifetime it will be mandatory on public roads just like for motorcycles - not an if, but a when.


There you go, just what we need, bigger and more intrusive government.


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## snookaydcc (Apr 13, 2013)

I dont wear a helmet because I didnt have the money for it yet. I'll attempt to track one down tomorrow while I have the time.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

snookaydcc said:


> I dont wear a helmet because I didnt have the money for it yet. I'll attempt to track one down tomorrow while I have the time.


You can get a helmet that meets CPSC standards at Target or Wally World for like $20. It might be as heavy as a cement block, and make you feel like you're wearing a sauna on your head in hot weather, but it'll offer some degree of protection.


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## cmtbiz (Jan 8, 2013)

People who don't wear helmet for bike ride feels that their brain is not worth of the cost of the helmet. They never realize that their head is priceless. :mad2:


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

cmtbiz said:


> People who don't wear helmet for bike ride feels that their brain is not worth of the cost of the helmet. They never realize that their head is priceless. :mad2:


 right back atcha :mad2:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Camilo said:


> right back atcha :mad2:


Neg repp'd

Actually, only one guy does that here. I also know he's reading this. Morgan Freeman. Now he's reading the rest with Morgan Freeman's voice. Sprinkles.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

Kimberly614 said:


> If I'm going on a long ride I always wear a helmet, bike shoes, a jersey, and bike shorts.


What do you wear on short rides?


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## skans (May 6, 2013)

I don't ride with a helmet. I choose not to - it's my right. I can't figure out why so many other cyclists get so upset about whether or not someone else is wearing a helmet! I've had other cyclists approach me and chew me out for not wearing a helmet. This makes me want to wear one even less.

I've been riding, alone, for over 20 years....with no helmet. I don't race and I don't do group rides. How is my not wearing a helmet bothering anyone, except perhaps auto insurance companies who would have you put seatbelts, training wheels and balloon-sized spinny reflectors on bicycles if they had their way? This has always baffled me.


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

cmtbiz said:


> People who don't wear helmet for bike ride feels that their brain is not worth of the cost of the helmet. They never realize that their head is priceless. :mad2:


Copy/paste much ?


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## ldotmurray (Jun 15, 2009)

If there is a helmet, I'm wearing it.


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## cmtbiz (Jan 8, 2013)

And where do you think that I made the copy and pasted?


superg said:


> Copy/paste much ?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

I know this will not change any minds here as folks seem pretty ingrained in thier for/against positions - but an interesting watch none the less:

MSN Entertainment -


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

cmtbiz said:


> People who don't wear helmet for bike ride feels that their brain is not worth of the cost of the helmet. They never realize that their head is priceless. :mad2:


Exactly. You can make the same argument for cyclists who ride too fast past pedestrians, do not use a bell to signal others, and ride at night without lights and reflectors.

Helmet use is just part of the equation. Interestingly, it's not even illegal in many places, but bells, lights, and reflectors are required by law. People who do not use them just show how much they care more about bike weight and appearances than about their own lives.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

i have been riding 50 years without a helmet, but this thread has convinced me to start. 

Having no clue what to look for, what would it cost to get a helmet that is lite weight and comfortable to wear? Walmart has a bunch of helmets and they seem lite, but as usual, most of you probably recommend something different?

thanks.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

sport7 said:


> i have been riding 50 years without a helmet, but this thread has convinced me to start.
> 
> Having no clue what to look for, what would it cost to get a helmet that is lite weight and comfortable to wear? Walmart has a bunch of helmets and they seem lite, but as usual, most of you probably recommend something different?
> 
> thanks.


OMG! I cannot believe this thread has actually moved someone to change their mind about this! Tons of great helmets out there - buy one at Wally-World and you will have done your bit to protect your noggin - tons of expensive helmets out there as well of course - decide how much you're willing to spend and find one that fits comfortably or can be adjusted to do so.


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## thekarens (Jul 17, 2012)

Yep go try a bunch on and see which is most comfortable. I've got a $40 helmet that is perfectly comfortable, but hot. Since I'm in Texas I'm about to drop $150 for more ventilation.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

LostViking said:


> OMG! I cannot believe this thread has actually moved someone to change their mind about this! Tons of great helmets out there - buy one at Wally-World and you will have done your bit to protect your noggin - tons of expensive helmets out there as well of course - decide how much you're willing to spend and find one that fits comfortably or can be adjusted to do so.


Not sure its about changing my mind about this, as probably more like reading a thread that makes sense and rationally deciding to do the right thing. Or am i just saying i changed my mind in a round about way?

Many of us were not raised with helmets or seat belts, we just lived in different times. Now what i do is wear leather gloves when cycling; when falling off a bike, my out stretched hands protect me from danger many times. 

That being the case, i would consider leather gloves or fingerless gloves to be just as important as wearing a helmet. In my neck of the woods, we tend to wear regular street clothes when riding; again a good pair of jeans is more protective than any pair of riding shorts the pros wear.

You may be surprised how many lurkers out there are influenced by threads like these; usually the ratios are quite high of readers to writers.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

I wear a Specialized Propero II. If you hunt around, they can be found for under $90.

I've had 3 now. The first 2 saved my head from injury at their peril. The bike shop even uses one as their demonstrator of how much the composite will compress in a bad crash.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

sport7 said:


> Not sure its about changing my mind about this, as probably more like reading a thread that makes sense and rationally deciding to do the right thing. Or am i just saying i changed my mind in a round about way?
> 
> Many of us were not raised with helmets or seat belts, we just lived in different times. Now what i do is wear leather gloves when cycling; when falling off a bike, my out stretched hands protect me from danger many times.
> 
> ...


I never wore a helmet during my younger days either - had some crashes (both in the States and in Europe) but got lucky with no permanent damage. Now I wear one all the time, even for short rides, and insist my 5 year old wears one as well.

Your point about "lurkers" is well taken - I'm kind of programmed to respond to people who post and forget there are others out there in the real world that might not be posting - but are still reading and perhaps forming or re-considering their pre- existing notions.

In the end, I suspect people will do whatever they want - I think it's not wise to ride without a helmet but I've got some less than wise cycling habits myself that I need to work on too - so I have adopted a live and let live position on this - all I can and want to control is the safety of myself and my family. Everyone else can make their own call on this one.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

I usually wear my seat belt. I also, usually wear my helmet. Funny thing is though, the only times I've ever had accidents was when I wasn't wearing them!


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

I wear a helmet, there's too many stupid people on the bike path. Had plenty of close calls with dogs without a leash, people not looking up, people with headphones swinging their bikes from side to side, big herds of people who seem to think it's ok to take up the entire path etc.


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## linateen75 (May 30, 2013)

1. Weight

2. Limiting visibility (because ... seriously)

3. Limitations of sight ... everyone (pretty or ugly helmets are the same all)

4. Making juice and crush all curly hair.

5. Bulky, birds also have no place to go to, vulnerable to theft.

6. Loss of aesthetic, just imagine wearing short mini jupe ... horizontal, cool shirts long long, long curly hair curls back drop ceiling, so that ... helmet, choking the words look stupid!

7. But if society were wearing helmets, which are other planets.

8. Everybody hat is difficult to distinguish the good from bad, difficult arrest criminals, dog owners do not realize .....

9. Many more ............

Yet that

I extremely like helmet, a routine and bizarre hobby of me, you left me wondering why on earth the child born that stupid helmet like that?

Often, in fact I do not wear a helmet when eating traveled or what needs to be quick - quick - compact-light, such as music lessons to your home or go ... buy drugs ... but, have the opportunity to My team is the best team!

Bright sunlight, wear a helmet!

Go that way as far as Trau Quy Van Dien and had helmets then.

Especially the rain, the rain kept me happy that hum, I feared stasis galaxy afraid, because I just might be waiting eagerly eager to pull the team helmet!

So why with each of the other reasons that I still prefer the helmet?

1. I choose to buy a small hat, my helmet is the durable, cute, not heavy at all. Because so many categories now, just try to buy the watch, do not prejudice!

2. And because small caps should I go extremely flexible way, the car always have glasses, my eye is fine, so I look good.

3. I'm bad, so the helmet as the. Which actually is pretty then put his glasses still see that galaxy.

4. I do not force hair, spring curly, so no matter hat. Which I think is actually the period unless the hair and blew tone than normal without affecting helmet (I have both normal science articles about this issue before that).

5. My hat still hung dangling car anywhere, with the words written on the hat: "Careful, this hat has fallen into ****!", Who likes to take it every take, who scared the **** ... well, hehe! Which actually send that, do not send it on hold, there is no problem too big?

6. Even if I have to wear mini jupe and long long shirt (although has never and does not), I still wear helmets, racks galaxies that look spoiled, increasingly prominent, do not affect me at all, they even told me stupid!

7. Who is the better team, even if the aliens looked like then ... what?

8. I have the good, the bad people off the road, nobody knew who I was, what sin I have someone "wanted" my servant, the hat is good for me but, heheheh

9. Many more ......

And of course, add as many other benefits, such as, dust, avoid the sun, avoid the rain, preserve lipstick ...

But actually the biggest reason is what?

To keep the life of me. I do not have to travel far to the concept team, the team still has to go near, because if an accident is an accident where the ball is, when the right lane was the drunk guy it crashed to death still fresh.

Remember, over 80% of all traffic accident fatalities are due to head injuries. And the truth is, most of the accidents I see on the street, victims were lying on the road with his head covered in blood! Broken arms, broken legs alive, more vital head injury death!

Oh what beautiful, beautiful hair do, do galaxy eyeing me .. What is the most important network, I keep my network, not only for me but also for my parents anymore!

Only one reason only, do not need to take such long range again? Right?

Maybe people thought I wrote this entry for advocating a "movement" helmet looks for "propaganda" for a while because I thought "fans" with Jackie Chan My Mind (ak ak).

Forget it, I'm not idle or run away with the propaganda by the movement's nothing, I say that seriously and sincerely! Speaking ominous, but do not let the time of accident knows fear, at that time it was too late!

I like it a helmet, even if people told me wacky!
(Ntmotor)

Send greetings of peace to those who read and understand what I'm saying!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

What. The. Hell?

:confused5::confused5::confused5::skep::skep::skep:


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

sport7 said:


> Not sure its about changing my mind about this, as probably more like reading a thread that makes sense and rationally deciding to do the right thing. Or am i just saying i changed my mind in a round about way?
> 
> Many of us were not raised with helmets or seat belts, we just lived in different times. Now what i do is wear leather gloves when cycling; when falling off a bike, my out stretched hands protect me from danger many times.
> 
> ...


Wow. Honestly happy to hear this. A guy who occasionally rode with our club rode for maybe 40 years without a helmet. He had a very serious accident and incurred permanent damage. Have not heard of his condition recently but hopefully you can avoid something like that. And maybe the internet actually did good for once.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

0.2HP said:


> Head injuries and bicycle helmet laws. [Accid Anal Prev. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> No clear evidence from countries that have enforced the wearing of helmets
> 
> http://www.cycle-helmets.com/cyclingreport_timgill.pdf


There once was a time when people questioned whether smoking tobacco really caused cancer. Later the data proved that it was in fact the culprit. Whether you chew it or smoke it, they both cause cancer. Yet there are still millions of people the world over who insist upon their individual right to engage in these activities with tobacco. That's despite all the evidence supportive of the negative health consequences of chewing and smoking tobacco. So it goes with wearing helmets while cycling!


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

Zeet said:


> There once was a time when people questioned whether smoking tobacco really caused cancer. Later the data proved that it was in fact the culprit. Whether you chew it or smoke it, they both cause cancer. Yet there are still millions of people the world over who insist upon their individual right to engage in these activities with tobacco. That's despite all the evidence supportive of the negative health consequences of chewing and smoking tobacco. So it goes with wearing helmets while cycling!


The evidence is clear. Alcohol, nicotine, heroin, and cocaine, are all clearly additive drugs. They have all been proven to be chemicals that are very destructive to the fabric of human society. Laws have been written to control their accessibility to most people, everywhere. However, there are millions of people who insist upon their individual right to be free to use these destructive chemicals, to whatever extent they choose. So it goes with wearing helmets while cycling!


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Over 40 years of riding, I've had a handful of accidents where I hit my head hard enough to crack my helmet........all of them but one were caused by either cars w drivers not paying attention or pace line accidents where I was behind a rider going down. 

I have no idea how much worse they would have been without a helmet, but after seeing the helmet damage, I'd personally never ride without one. 

Len


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

linateen75 said:


> Send greetings of peace to those who read and understand what I'm saying!


I have no effin idea wth you wrote, but I rep'd you anyway...

ak ak, indeed...


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

linateen75 said:


> Send greetings of peace to those who read and understand what I'm saying!


769 words in your epic dissertation. I'm pretty sure most are english words that I understood. But when strung together in the order you chose... No F'n clue what it all means.


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## shermes (Jul 26, 2008)

linateen75 said:


> And of course, add as many other benefits, such as, dust, avoid the sun, avoid the rain, preserve lipstick ...
> 
> But actually the biggest reason is what?


I'll go with Isotope money.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

NJBiker72 said:


> Wow. Honestly happy to hear this. A guy who occasionally rode with our club rode for maybe 40 years without a helmet. He had a very serious accident and incurred permanent damage. Have not heard of his condition recently but hopefully you can avoid something like that. And maybe the internet actually did good for once.


His initials wouldn't be J.R. would they?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Friend of mine had a gnarly crash. Thrashed his bike and helmet, broken collar bone and a fractured pelvis. Helmet did the job.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

sport7 said:


> Not sure its about changing my mind about this, as probably more like reading a thread that makes sense and rationally deciding to do the right thing. Or am i just saying i changed my mind in a round about way?
> 
> Many of us were not raised with helmets or seat belts, we just lived in different times. Now what i do is wear leather gloves when cycling; when falling off a bike, my out stretched hands protect me from danger many times.
> 
> ...


I wasn't raised with seat belts and helmets either, but that doesn't mean we were *right* Some things in time actually bring better advancements to improve our safety .. helmets is one. I have been hit by a car when I was a youth and one of my daughters was slammed into a wall head first from a school horse years ago (our own horses were/are well trained and mannered .. would NEVER do such a thing to purposely injure a rider) My daughter was wearing a highly rated helmet that no doubt saved her life! She had to be life flighted to a hospital. It was during the flight that she came to. The helmet was cracked .. which could have easily been her skull had she not been wearing the helmet. 
Do you really want to take such a risk?

I am new to biking as a sport, group rides, bought my first road bike .. I was *turned on* to a pair of bike shorts when I bought the bike, and I have since accumulated a bike dedicated wardrobe. Jeans restrict & bunch at the knee causing fatigue. Bike clothes are SOoo much more comfortable, light weight and wick away sweat. *Jeans* don't .. they are heavy and awkward on longer rides .. and can easily *get caught in the chain. *


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

LostViking said:


> Wow this thread keeps on kicking!
> 
> Why do people not wear helmets?
> Hmmmm, let me summerize:
> ...


Now that made me laugh .. How much do you wanna bet if there was an *iHelmet *that it would change a lot of minds? lol


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

linateen75 said:


> 1. Weight
> 
> 2. Limiting visibility (because ... seriously)
> 
> ...


Whatever it is that you are drinking/smoking .. please enlighten me/us to what .. so we won't.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

linateen75 said:


> 1. Weight
> 
> 2. Limiting visibility (because ... seriously)
> 
> ...


It's Gen-U-Ine Frontier Jibberish!


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## simondr70 (Apr 24, 2013)

sport7 said:


> i have been riding 50 years without a helmet, but this thread has convinced me to start.
> 
> Having no clue what to look for, what would it cost to get a helmet that is lite weight and comfortable to wear? Walmart has a bunch of helmets and they seem lite, but as usual, most of you probably recommend something different?
> 
> thanks.


I bought a Cosi helmet from on Ali express they call it the honeycomb helmet still comfort wise you gotta try a couple i know Louis Garneau are really comfortable its like they where made for my head shape .


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Zeet said:


> There once was a time when people questioned whether smoking tobacco really caused cancer. Later the data proved that it was in fact the culprit. Whether you chew it or smoke it, they both cause cancer. Yet there are still millions of people the world over who insist upon their individual right to engage in these activities with tobacco. That's despite all the evidence supportive of the negative health consequences of chewing and smoking tobacco. So it goes with wearing helmets while cycling!


I'm glad you agree that freedom can be messy sometimes and maybe even risky.... but people ought to be free to determine for themselves what the actual risk is and if it's worth it to them.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Yep, like folks with a larynostomy smoking cigarettes through their stoma: Live Free or Die!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

*"Look Mum, no helmet!"*

View attachment 282131


Matilde of London, England. 

Must-see June 2013 on MSN Photos


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Camilo said:


> As I've found to be a common trait of pro-helmet enthusiasts, you mistake an honest assessment that helmets aren't really necessary for "hate" (where the hell did that come from - has anyone actually expressed "hate" for helmets? Come on now).
> 
> I'll help you - a lot of very reasonable, thoughtful, careful, intelligent, mature people understand that cycling is really not very dangerous, at least not so dangerous that helmets are necessary for a reasonable degree of safety.
> 
> ...


Highways aren't exactly safe as we've all known somone who has been clipped by a car. Most of the time the motorist simply drove off.

MUTs? Lots of nimrods make it about as "safe" as racing. 

Hell, my aunt's neighbor was just messing around his neighborhood on a hybrid and caught a big crack in the cement just right to endo. A head injury, a long time in the hospital, and having to relearn to walk taught him one lesson the hard way. 

Other than pride, hating "helmet Nazis", and singing Black Flag tunes, there's really no strong reason not to wear a helmet or seatbelt. 

Signed someone who just visited a friend in the hospital after a non-racing bike accident. These are hardly scare tactics. I'm simply paying attention. I've even done a face plant or two as a kid.


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## lisawhaley (Jul 6, 2013)

*I want to address here my rationale for **not wearing a helmet** while riding a bicycle, **...A helmet only does any good if you crash, go down hard, and hit your head.*


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

I wear a helmet when I do training rides, but never wear one when riding around town.

We have a bike system thing where you get a bike at a station and drop it off at another station. Unless you're just walking around with a helmet all the time in anticipation of using one of these then you're going to ride without. Never even thought about a helmet riding one of those as it seems almost akin to walking. 

And frankly, since the speed most people ride these things at is only slightly faster than running, I don't see a reason to. I'd never wear a helmet running, so why wear one when riding around time?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

...ugh. stupid post positioning thingy.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

tlg said:


> Yea this is pretty stupid reasoning. Some people didn't pay attention in science class.
> When riding a bike, your head is at least 1m above the pavement. At a 1m (3.3ft) drop you'll be traveling at 4.4m/s (9.9mph). If you don't think your head needs protection from pavement at 9.9mph, all the power to you.


When I run my head is approximately 1.8 meters above the pavement. In races shorter than a half marathon I'll be running at over 10 mph. 

I don't think I should wear a helmet when I run, do you?

When Usain Bolt runs he's traveling closer to 25 mph. Do you think he should wear a helmet, too?


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

runabike said:


> When I run my head is approximately 1.8 meters above the pavement. In races shorter than a half marathon I'll be running at over 10 mph.
> 
> I don't think I should wear a helmet when I run, do you?
> 
> When Usain Bolt runs he's traveling closer to 25 mph. Do you think he should wear a helmet, too?


Much more likely to fall over to the side on a bike than on your feet.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

NJBiker72 said:


> Much more likely to fall over to the side on a bike than on your feet.


Might want to check the statistics on that...


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

runabike said:


> I wear a helmet when I do training rides, but never wear one when riding around town.
> 
> We have a bike system thing where you get a bike at a station and drop it off at another station. Unless you're just walking around with a helmet all the time in anticipation of using one of these then you're going to ride without. Never even thought about a helmet riding one of those as it seems almost akin to walking.
> 
> And frankly, since the speed most people ride these things at is only slightly faster than running, I don't see a reason to. I'd never wear a helmet running, so why wear one when riding around time?


I would say to be sure and let me know when you start drooling into your pudding, but you won't have brainpower enough to remember.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

lisawhaley said:


> *I want to address here my rationale for **not wearing a helmet** while riding a bicycle, **...A helmet only does any good if you crash, go down hard, and hit your head.*


Yeah well .. there is a good chance that you will hit your head. From personal experience, my own from a horse knocked unconscious broken nose plus other injuries, my daughter riding a school horse was thrown head first into a wall. Had it not been for the quality helmet that she was wearing, she would have died. As it was, she was knocked unconscious, life flighted to a hospital. She came to during the flight. Her helmet was cracked ( 4-H horse riding helmets, I believe meet more rigorous standards which she was wearing)

Do you really want to take a chance .. a roll of the dice every time you ride? Keep in mind that you have no control what other drivers do. Like a game of playing chicken with a car .. you will lose every time.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

rider9 said:


> The only "bad" statistics are the ones that have been manipulated (i.e. changed to suit the writer's argument). These may or may not be appropriate for a "should you wear a bicycle helmet or not," but they are the truth.


Got that right!


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

lisawhaley said:


> *I want to address here my rationale for **not wearing a helmet** while riding a bicycle, **...A helmet only does any good if you crash, go down hard, and hit your head.*


Which is why we wear helmets...your's is not a rational, it's irrational.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> A helmet occupies space that your head does not. During a crash, your head might not come within 2" of the pavement if you weren't wearing a helmet, but a helmet occupies that 2" of space, so the crack and the resulting headache would be a direct result OF wearing a helmet.


I would rather suffer a headache than a cracked skull ;0)


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

aureliajulia said:


> Which is why we wear helmets...your's is not a rational, *it's irrational*.


So is the fervent obsession some people have with whether others are wearing helmets or not. Basically, mind your own goddamn business.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

NJBiker72 said:


> Much more likely to fall over to the side on a bike than on your feet.


remind me not to ride next to you.


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

Have any of you people spouting no helmet 'logic' actually ever had a serious head injury? Like a grade 3 concussion? That happens at a minimum when you lose consciousness for less than a minute, even with no broken bones and no bleeding of the brain. (Those things would also be considered grade 3, but they are more serious). Well, I was in a crash on the first of December of last year. I was wearing a helmet, going maybe 5-10 mph. We'd just stopped and I was a little preoccupied getting all my gear and clothing bac together. Especially my gloves. Stupid, I know. Don't actually remember falling, but from the damage, I must have tucked and rolled, hitting the bottom of my chin, front of my chin, above the mouth, the nose, and on the cheek (right side). My cycling glasses were damaged. There was a dent in the leading edge of my helmet, and scrape marks all the way from front to rear. (Also the full right quadrant).My right shoulder and hand hurt, and there were scrape marks on the fronts and backs of both hands. Guess I never did get those gloves on.

I was off the bike from December 1st to March 29th. I had difficulty putting keys into locks, using silverware, walking, thinking. 

Imagine the damage to my brain, had my forehead (frontal lobes), and skull sustained the same trauma. (Thank you Rudy Project, both for the very good helmet and replacing it for just shipping costs!).

I'm lucky, I didn't break anything. In fact, I've never broken a bone, though there are many times where that should have happened. Put it down to being involved in many types of endurance sports since the age of 8, which has given me very strong bones (I'm 43), and genetics. But I'm sure my skull would not have been so fortunate. But even a head injury with no broken bones, like the impact to my face, causes brain injury. Helmets prevent and reduce the effects. That is very important. Had I not been wearing one (where, remember, I was barely moving), my life would be very different today. 

I'm not going to say 'sorry' or 'no offense' first to any who have made some of the clueless and illogical statements in this thread. I think you are all a bunch of self-indulgent brats. Imagine the people who will have to exert themselves to whipe your behinds for the next however many years when you suddenly can't do it for yourselves, anymore. Imagine the financial and emotional costs.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

aureliajulia said:


> Have any of you people spouting no helmet 'logic' actually ever had a serious head injury? Like a grade 3 concussion? That happens at a minimum when you lose consciousness for less than a minute, even with no broken bones and no bleeding of the brain. (Those things would also be considered grade 3, but they are more serious). Well, I was in a crash on the first of December of last year. I was wearing a helmet, going maybe 5-10 mph. We'd just stopped and I was a little preoccupied getting all my gear and clothing bac together. Especially my gloves. Stupid, I know. Don't actually remember falling, but from the damage, I must have tucked and rolled, hitting the bottom of my chin, front of my chin, above the mouth, the nose, and on the cheek (right side). My cycling glasses were damaged. There was a dent in the leading edge of my helmet, and scrape marks all the way from front to rear. (Also the full right quadrant).My right shoulder and hand hurt, and there were scrape marks on the fronts and backs of both hands. Guess I never did get those gloves on.
> 
> I was off the bike from December 1st to March 29th. I had difficulty putting keys into locks, using silverware, walking, thinking.
> 
> ...


Just because this needed repeating.

Thank Heavens you are OK .. great post! I just hope you changed a few minds.


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> So is the fervent obsession some people have with whether others are wearing helmets or not. Basically, mind your own goddamn business.


When a person publicly posts an opinion, they invite discourse and criticism, particularly in a thread that discusses the issue. So the 'mind you own goddamn business' is misplaced anger. If you don't want that reaction, don't post. Being logical or illogical, which was the subject of your post and mine, has nothing to do with minding business. Once again, your response was, simply, illogical.

And self-indulgent.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Helmets are proof that 1984 is happening right now.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

aureliajulia said:


> Have any of you people spouting no helmet 'logic' actually ever had a serious head injury? Like a grade 3 concussion? That happens at a minimum when you lose consciousness for less than a minute, even with no broken bones and no bleeding of the brain. (Those things would also be considered grade 3, but they are more serious). Well, I was in a crash on the first of December of last year. I was wearing a helmet, going maybe 5-10 mph. We'd just stopped and I was a little preoccupied getting all my gear and clothing bac together. Especially my gloves. Stupid, I know. Don't actually remember falling, but from the damage, I must have tucked and rolled, hitting the bottom of my chin, front of my chin, above the mouth, the nose, and on the cheek (right side). My cycling glasses were damaged. There was a dent in the leading edge of my helmet, and scrape marks all the way from front to rear. (Also the full right quadrant).My right shoulder and hand hurt, and there were scrape marks on the fronts and backs of both hands. Guess I never did get those gloves on.
> 
> I was off the bike from December 1st to March 29th. I had difficulty putting keys into locks, using silverware, walking, thinking.
> 
> ...


imaging the damage to your forehead had you actually paid attention to what you were doing?


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

Have you even read that book? I can see some correlations in society today to 1984, including the use of computers! But not with common sense safety, and the care for yourself and your loved ones.


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

den bakker said:


> imaging the damage to your forehead had you actually paid attention to what you were doing?


Karma is fun, dude.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

aureliajulia said:


> Karma is fun, dude.


What did you do since karma took you off the bike for months?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

aureliajulia said:


> Karma is fun, dude.


I once knew a stripper named Karma. She was hot and fun, but you'd need to visit the clinic to get a 2 gram slam of Zithromax and ointment to clear that up.


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

den bakker said:


> What did you do since karma took you off the bike for months?


Not quite getting it, are we?


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

spade2you said:


> I once knew a stripper named Karma. She was hot and fun, but you'd need to visit the clinic to get a 2 gram slam of Zithromax and ointment to clear that up.


Loved this.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

aureliajulia said:


> Not quite getting it, are we?


oh sorry you thought karma only worked on others? well you're the one believing in that carp not me.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

Quoting myself because I still feel the same way and continue to hope that state and federal laws don't ever force me to live in a nanny state. Also, don't worry about what I do, worry about yourself. Some folks on here want to impose their personal beliefs on others for their own good, it's a free (somewhat) country (Until 2016 when Hillary gets in) so live and let live.




nOOky said:


> I always wear a helmet. I don't care what other people do, their personal safety is not my concern unless it directly affects me. Thankfully there are no bicycle helmet laws, I would prefer to have the choice. I don't rag on other people for their choices, I don't always make the best choices myself.
> In other words, who cares?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

aureliajulia said:


> When a person publicly posts an opinion, they invite discourse and criticism, particularly in a thread that discusses the issue. So the 'mind you own goddamn business' is misplaced anger. If you don't want that reaction, don't post. Being logical or illogical, which was the subject of your post and mine, has nothing to do with minding business. Once again, your response was, simply, illogical.
> 
> And self-indulgent.


That WAS my opinion. If I don't wear a helmet, mind your own damn business and keep your mouth shut. I don't need a nanny. Be happy wearing your foam hat and leave it at that.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> That WAS my opinion. If I don't wear a helmet, mind your own damn business and keep your mouth shut. I don't need a nanny. Be happy wearing your foam hat and leave it at that.


Is it necessary to make your point being a jerk about it? 
Hey .. don't wear a helmet. No skin off my back, unless you wind up in the hospital and can't pay the bill, someone(s) has to wipe your rear the rest of your miserable life because you can't & the taxpayers foot your bill. You see, I have known too many who have suffered head injuries, including myself. It happens.

Good LUCK


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

kris7047th said:


> Is it necessary to make your point being a jerk about it?
> Hey .. don't wear a helmet. No skin off my back, unless you wind up in the hospital and can't pay the bill, someone(s) has to wipe your rear the rest of your miserable life because you can't & the taxpayers foot your bill. You see, I have known too many who have suffered head injuries, including myself. It happens.
> 
> Good LUCK


^ THIS is why I have that attitude... because of the sanctimonious know-it-all attitude that the helmet nazis all have.

Make sure you wear a helmet in the bathtub, since more head injuries occur there.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

kris7047th said:


> Is it necessary to make your point being a jerk about it?


by using terms like "bunch of self-indulgent brats" ? 
that one is apparently worth repeating according to you.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

den bakker said:


> by using terms like "bunch of self-indulgent brats" ?
> that one is apparently worth repeating according to you.


Well if the hat (helmet) fits .. might as well wear it.

I raised six kids to adulthood (successfully) Hey .. if one of them mouthed off, acted bratty .. they were treated accordingly.

You see the thing is there are newbies in the hobby reading this thread wondering about wearing a helmet or not (mostly because most people don't and (don't want to look geeky) This isn't all about you and the non wearers right not to. I could care less .. I am more concerned for those sitting on the fence. 

Per ex. I am a shooter and ALWAYS keep my gun holstered trigger covered to prevent a ND. There are those who *Mexican Carry* it's their right, but reeeaally stupid.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> That WAS my opinion. If I don't wear a helmet, mind your own damn business and keep your mouth shut. I don't need a nanny. Be happy wearing your foam hat and leave it at that.


You're welcome to your opinion. On a forum like this you are also welcome to mine, which is that it's stupid to ride without a helmet. Deal with it.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

kris7047th said:


> Well if the hat (helmet) fits .. might as well wear it.
> 
> I raised six kids to adulthood (successfully) Hey .. if one of them mouthed off, acted bratty .. they were treated accordingly.
> 
> ...


how much less could you care? 
I just find it rather funny you are all up in arms whether people wear a helmet but some brat riding along not paying attention because he has to arrange his cloth and therefore face plants is all dandy. Apparently avoiding the face plant is not too important as long as there's a piece of Styrofoam on the head. that's the message you want to convey to the people on the fence? 
And I could not care less about your weapons. Well that's not true. I care less about how many kids you raised.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

den bakker said:


> how much less could you care?
> I just find it rather funny you are all up in arms whether people wear a helmet but some brat riding along not paying attention because he has to arrange his cloth and therefore face plants is all dandy. Apparently avoiding the face plant is not too important as long as there's a piece of Styrofoam on the head. that's the message you want to convey to the people on the fence?
> And I could not care less about your weapons. Well that's not true. I care less about how many kids you raised.


I am *not up in arms* as you put it .. lol .. just stating my opinion like you. But you and that other guy with the potty mouth certainly seem bent out of shape


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## Samfujiabq (Jul 3, 2013)

I run too,apples and oranges ,I ve fallen on some trail runs and wished I'd been wearing a helmet


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

You have an opinion counter to theirs. I know--shocking on the interwebz. Enough to make you a nazi 😀😀😀😀


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

People fall out of bed, fall in the shower, fall down the stairs, etc.

The point being that you can always fall and the guy I quoted wasn't thinking things through completely. 

If riding a bike at 10 mph with your head a foot off the ground is so dangerous as to necessitate a helmet then anything and everything we do that meets those guidelines should warrant a helmet as well.

And since no one wears a helmet when running, etc., then it is not, in fact, "pretty stupid reasoning" as he put it.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

And the logic that a few of you are using to rationalize why not to wear a helmet is just dumbfounding. 

Depending on where you live, how populated your town/city is, the quality of the streets (pot holes, if the broken glass gets cleaned up etc) Drivers in my town are not very considerate for bike riders, MC riders included. It pays to wear a helmet to prevent brain trauma, and yet I see very few bike riders wearing helmets. To each their own, but remember if you do suffer an accident, you may very well regret that you did not take the steps to protect your head when you could have.

Just last week I was in Charleston SC to visit my daughter. I saw several bike riders (most wearing jerseys) and ALL were wearing helmets.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

Fireform said:


> You're welcome to your opinion. On a forum like this you are also welcome to mine, which is that it's stupid to ride without a helmet. Deal with it.


It's this kind of self-righteous attitude that gets really annoying. If the guy wants to ride without a helmet, let him. It's not illegal, and even though it's hard to believe, it's not stupid either. A lot of people ride without one and *gasp* get home without getting into an accident. And if they do, they don't get brain damage.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating that you must ride without one. I ride with a helmet. I'm advocating choice. It's the man's (or woman's) choice. Just leave it at that.

If you want to get judgmental then I charge you with this question. Do you ride with a bell? Do you ride with a reflector in the front and the back? Do you ride with a mirror? Do you ride with a headlight and a taillight?

In many places, those are actually required by law, yet I see so many helmet-cladded cyclists zipping by me and other cyclists and pedestrians yelling "ON YOUR LEFT!" at night. It scares people out of their wits and in almost all these cases, they are not seen until the last minute because none of them are using a light or a bell.

Personally, it's stupid to ride a bike without these things. You wouldn't drive a car with them so don't risk it on a bike.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> And the logic that a few of you are using to rationalize why not to wear a helmet is just dumbfounding.
> 
> Depending on where you live, how populated your town/city is, the quality of the streets (pot holes, if the broken glass gets cleaned up etc) Drivers in my town are not very considerate for bike riders, MC riders included. It pays to wear a helmet to prevent brain trauma, and yet I see very few bike riders wearing helmets. To each their own, but remember if you do suffer an accident, you may very well regret that you did not take the steps to protect your head when you could have.
> 
> Just last week I was in Charleston SC to visit my daughter. I saw several bike riders (most wearing jerseys) and ALL were wearing helmets.



But why don't you wear a helmet when you're walking around or jogging around or sprinting to catch a bus or something? Your head is even higher than you are when you're riding a bike! Why the double standard?


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

Oh good grief! Your comparison .. logic is INANE. And you know it

I don't deal with OTHER drivers in my house, rarely take walks. I don't sprint anywhere with the bad knees that I have. I don't ever *catch a bus* because I drive (I wear my seat belt tho) I do take precautionary steps to maintain my safety in my daily life. For the idiot who wants to break into my house .. I have that covered too ;0)


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> Oh good grief! Your comparison .. logic is INANE. And you know it
> 
> I don't deal with OTHER drivers in my house, rarely take walks. I don't sprint anywhere with the bad knees that I have. I don't ever *catch a bus* because I drive (I wear my seat belt tho) I do take precautionary steps to maintain my safety in my daily life. For the idiot who wants to break into my house .. I have that covered too ;0)



Calling it inane is simply a concession in an insulting form. 

It's not inane in the least. For the record, I always wear a helmet when I train and I NEVER wear a helmet riding my bike around town, nor does anyone else. We have close to ten thousand city bikes at stations throughout the city that lots of people ride on all the time, none with helmets. 

And that's precisely the scenario I'm talking about here as it parallels TLG's comments about people using "pretty stupid reasoning" for not wearing a helmet if your head is traveling at 9.9 mph a few feet above the ground.

We do lots of things every single day with similar levels of risk regarding our heads traveling at a speed elevated above the ground and NO ONE EVER gives a single thought to wearing a helmet for those activities. 

It's not reasoning, it's just a nonsense thing to constantly worry about. 

But you can tell me how inane I know it is if you like. It's not true, but don't take my word for it.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> ^ THIS is why I have that attitude... because of the sanctimonious know-it-all attitude that the helmet nazis all have.
> 
> Make sure you wear a helmet in the bathtub, since more head injuries occur there.



Indeed. There's a serious disconnect between the logical application of helmet use and its practical use by some in this thread. 

Why are we not all wearing helmets all day long if we're really in so much danger?


----------



## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

runabike said:


> Calling it inane is simply a concession in an insulting form.
> 
> It's not inane in the least. For the record, I always wear a helmet when I train and I NEVER wear a helmet riding my bike around town, nor does anyone else. We have close to ten thousand city bikes at stations throughout the city that lots of people ride on all the time, none with helmets.
> 
> ...


Do what you want. BTW .. I don't *constantly* worry. I see it as using good judgement to use safety measures when they are so easily available to me (just in case) Because you can't pick & choose the time when an accident can occur. In my small city the streets are not well maintained, pot holes galore, broken glass rarely cleaned up, IDIOT drivers on cell phones paying no attention to anyone else. 

I guess I have lived longer than you and have possibly witnessed more .. why I am more careful as I get older. Or .. maybe I value my well being more than you do?

There is an old saying .. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


*** You know what? I concede that You DON'T need a helmet, because you are so hard headed. ***


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> Do what you want. BTW .. I don't *constantly* worry. I see it as using good judgement to use safety measures when they are so easily available to me (just in case) Because you can't pick & choose the time when an accident can occur. In my small city the streets are not well maintained, pot holes galore, broken glass rarely cleaned up, IDIOT drivers on cell phones paying no attention to anyone else.
> 
> I guess I have lived longer than you and have possibly witnessed more .. why I am more careful as I get older. Or .. maybe I value my well being more than you do?
> 
> There is an old saying .. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.



You constantly worry about helmet use on a bike but nowhere else in your life. That's a double standard whether you'll admit it or not. 

In addition to being a Cat 1 and racing across the US and in Europe, I've also spent the last seven years traveling and living all over the world so I always find it a bit...silly...reading comments from people who just randomly quip about having "more experience" or witnessing more or what have you. It's a non-issue and irrelevant to boot. 

Easily available? As I said, there are nearly ten thousand bikes located around my city that anyone can get on and ride. Do you propose that we all carry helmets around all day long in the event that we decide to hop on one? Do you propose the same thing for people in Amsterdam or in any of the thousands of places where cycling isn't so much a sport as a mode of transportation? 

In all seriousness, how would you address the above? Should we all be carrying helmets around with us all the time?


----------



## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

runabike said:


> You constantly worry about helmet use on a bike but nowhere else in your life. That's a double standard whether you'll admit it or not.
> 
> In addition to being a Cat 1 and racing across the US and in Europe, I've also spent the last seven years traveling and living all over the world so I always find it a bit...silly...reading comments from people who just randomly quip about having "more experience". It's a non-issue and irrelevant to boot.
> 
> ...


:: facepalm:: 

Let it rest .. 

Buh bye ...


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> :: facepalm::
> 
> Let it rest ..
> 
> Buh bye ...


Well I guess that's a better concession than simply calling it "inane". 

Still curious about whether or not people all over the world should be walking around with their helmets. 

But that would unravel your argument, so I understand the desire to back out quickly.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

kris7047th said:


> :: facepalm::


don't forget the helmet.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

runabike said:


> But why don't you wear a helmet when you're walking around or jogging around or sprinting to catch a bus or something? Your head is even higher than you are when you're riding a bike! *Why the double standard*?


My walking speed is about 2 MPH. I like my chances should I trip. I go faster on a bike. Different standard for different things. It's not rocket surgery.

I'd gladly wear a helmet playing football, on foot, or running at 50 mph down a hill and not wear one of a bike for rides where I'm cruising along at 2-3 mph. But I don't play football anymore and the other two just ain't going to happen so for now it's no helmet on foot and helmet on a bike.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> My walking speed is about 2 MPH. I like my chances should I trip. I go faster on a bike. Different standard for different things. It's not rocket surgery.


except it's the vertical not horizontal speed that matters.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

den bakker said:


> except it's the vertical not horizontal speed that matters.


Um .. NO on a bike it's vertical speed TIMES horizontal.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

kris7047th said:


> Um .. NO on a bike it's vertical speed TIMES horizontal.


tell that to the brat that ended up in the hospital doing just above a brisk walking speed.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

den bakker said:


> tell that to the *brat* that ended up in the hospital doing just above a brisk walking speed.


wOw .. just think how bad it really would have been had he been on a bike.

And why are you sooo negative with the name calling?


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

kris7047th said:


> Um .. NO on a bike it's vertical speed TIMES horizontal.


but just for fun. if it's the product it would be twice as bad falling over going forward with 2 mph instead of 1. and at 0 mph horizontal speed it would be 0. brilliant. you could at least have tried by adding the vectors.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> tell that to the brat that ended up in the hospital doing just above a brisk walking speed.


Head injuries from walking are very underestimated. I think I've seen exactly zero of them whilest working at a trauma hospital for more than a decade.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

kris7047th said:


> wOw .. just think how bad it really would have been had he been on a bike.
> 
> And why are you sooo negative with the name calling?


he was on a bike. try and keep up. I know the posts were yesterday but really......
just returning the language the person use about others. you seemed fine with it then.


----------



## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

spade2you said:


> Head injuries from walking are very underestimated. I think I've seen exactly zero of them whilest working at a trauma hospital for more than a decade.


Curious .. how many from bike riders?


----------



## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

den bakker said:


> he was on a bike. try and keep up. I know the posts were yesterday but really......
> just returning the language the person use about others. you seemed fine with it then.


 So the guy is a brat because why?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

kris7047th said:


> Curious .. how many from bike riders?


A few. Most tend to be kids. Most adults in my area simply don't ride. The die hards in my area seem to wear helmets for the most part. 

One that always comes to mind was a guy who lives in my aunt's neighborhood. He and his daughter were on their hybrids in their neighborhood. He caught a bad patch of pavement and landed head first. He spent the next couple months in the hospital and about a year relearning to walk. 

Another guy I knew would ride on my route, which has fairly minimal traffic. He got clipped by a car. Mild concussion and a few broken bones. He now wears a helmet all the time.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

spade2you said:


> A few. Most tend to be kids. Most adults in my area simply don't ride. The die hards in my area seem to wear helmets for the most part.
> 
> One that always comes to mind was a guy who lives in my aunt's neighborhood. He and his daughter were on their hybrids in their neighborhood. He caught a bad patch of pavement and landed head first. He spent the next couple months in the hospital and about a year relearning to walk.
> 
> Another guy I knew would ride on my route, which has fairly minimal traffic. He got clipped by a car. Mild concussion and a few broken bones. He now wears a helmet all the time.


A hard way to learn a lesson. But .. that's how it is with some.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

kris7047th said:


> A hard way to learn a lesson. But .. that's how it is with some.


True. I also know more than a few riders who have basically destroyed their helmets. A few walked away. Some had to be transported due to broken bones. Some had a mild concussion. Some got lucky and had no head injuries.

My cousin used to ski a lot and got a few concussions from hitting stuff. Her doc told her after the 3rd concussion to either wear a helmet or stop hitting the slopes.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

spade2you said:


> True. I also know more than a few riders who have basically destroyed their helmets. A few walked away. Some had to be transported due to broken bones. Some had a mild concussion. Some got lucky and had no head injuries.
> 
> My cousin used to ski a lot and got a few concussions from hitting stuff. Her doc told her after the 3rd concussion to either wear a helmet or stop hitting the slopes.


I hear you. I stated before that I have a daughter who would not be here today had it not been for her 4-H horse riding helmet that was severely cracked (made to much more rigorous standards than bike helmets) when she was thrown/slammed head first into a wall. It was a school horse at Mich State U several years ago. Our horses had better manners and NEVER would have done such a thing. My daughter lost consciousness and was life flighted to the hospital. Thank God she is OK today.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

rkdvsm said:


> It's this kind of self-righteous attitude that gets really annoying. If the guy wants to ride without a helmet, let him. It's not illegal, and even though it's hard to believe, it's not stupid either. A lot of people ride without one and *gasp* get home without getting into an accident. And if they do, they don't get brain damage.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating that you must ride without one. I ride with a helmet. I'm advocating choice. It's the man's (or woman's) choice. Just leave it at that.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this observation.

Until the groupthink realizes that there is more to safety than slapping a helmet on their collective heads it won't be cool to put lights, mirrors or, gasp, mirrors and reflectors their bikes.

It's just easier for the ego to say "my helmet saved my life" than to say "I hit the parked car because it was dark and I didn't see it" or " I was ass ended because with no tail light I couldn't be seen".


Shux, most cyclists can't wait to get their new steed home and remove the reflectors and dork disk so they're not thought to be Freds.

But helmets, Man, they're cool, and if you don't wear one you're an idiot who doesn't care about his life and is going to be a burden on everyones health care.

Some people just don't know the difference between their ass and the inside of a helmet.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

velodog said:


> Thank you for this observation.
> 
> Until the groupthink realizes that there is more to safety than slapping a helmet on their collective heads it won't be cool to put lights, mirrors or, gasp, mirrors and reflectors their bikes.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't know and/or care about others. As for me, I do have reflectors, lights on both of my bikes. I even use a mirror mounted on my glasses (as recommended by fellow bike riders) As for wearing the helmet because *it's cool* .. I never thought it that way .. ever. 

But DON'T TELL ME that I .. *"**don't know the difference between their ass and the inside of a helmet."* .. when my daughter would have been killed had it not been for her helmet.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

gte105u said:


> Here in this piddly town I live in (temporarily, here for work), I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet. You can tell cycling awareness is not a very big concern for most people, and I am also one of the few people who seem to cycle remotely seriously as well.
> 
> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?



People who don’t wear helmets are idiots. Period. There is no legitimate reason for not wearing each and every time you go biking. Even if sizing were an issue, a helmet should be custom-made before riding. My rule for me is this: no helmet, no biking, no exceptions. It’s also the rule for my seven year-old boy with regard to biking _and _hockey. He doesn’t set foot on the ice without a helmet on, not even to pick up his water bottle.

It takes a matter of seconds for an accident to take place that can change one’s life forever, even when not deliberately taking risks. I realized this point the hard way, several years ago.

I’ve always worn helmets when mountain biking, but I used to go road biking without one routinely. Then, unexpectedly, while riding my mountain bike to the trail I had an accident _on the road_. Went over the handlebars going quite fast, injured my shoulder, and cracked the side of my helmet in three places as it slammed against the pavement. There is no doubt about it - that helmet either saved my life, or saved me from what would have been a serious and potentially permanent head injury. I could have been turned into a vegetable, in a mere matter of seconds. I got up with my shoulder hurting like hell, but the bottom line is that I got up, and with nothing more than a shoulder injury.

Riding a bike without a helmet is like playing Russian roulette. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t take those kinds of needless risks with my well-being.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

Well said.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of doctor is your wife?


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

jneilt said:


> My wife works on a number of craniofacial cases (mostly kids). When we lived in NY it was mostly snowmobiles/snowboards. Down here, ATVs, personal watercraft, and bikes.
> 
> Don't want to wear a helmet...fine by me...more toys for me. I know that is a crap attitude to have, but after so many years of not seeing behaviors change...well...you should see the agony of a parent who's kid is confined to a wheelchair because of oversight or wanting to look cool.
> 
> FWIW. I have been riding since 1990, I don't have a helmet, I don't get on a bike....no matter how short the ride.


Well said.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of doctor is your wife?


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

kris7047th said:


> I wouldn't know and/or care about others. As for me, I do have reflectors, lights on both of my bikes. I even use a mirror mounted on my glasses (as recommended by fellow bike riders) As for wearing the helmet because *it's cool* .. I never thought it that way .. ever.
> 
> But DON'T TELL ME that I .. *"**don't know the difference between their ass and the inside of a helmet."* .. when my daughter would have been killed had it not been for her helmet.


I think he was speaking in general terms. I'm glad your daughter is safe. I really do. As I have a young child myself, all this is important to me.

And yes, if you have reflectors, bells, lights, mirrors, etc. then his message isn't for you or for anyone else who makes complete safety a priority.

But he does have a point when he said that many "cyclists can't wait to get their new steed home and remove the reflectors and dork disk..." Be honest, who has kept those on after getting a new bike?

I won't speak for velodog, but the way I see it, his message isn't even for those who don't use reflectors, bells, lights, mirrors, etc. (even though they should). It's for those who judge the helmet-less cycling crowd for being irresponsible and stupid, yet go out on a ride without reflectors, bells, lights, mirrors, etc. It's also for those who judge the helmet-less crowd for being unsafe, yet ride 15mph+ past busy pedestrian-crowed areas and zipping through stop signs and yelling "ON YOUR LEFT!" 

I challenge those in NYC/NJ to walk the GW Bridge at night and count how many cyclists ride without the proper lighting equipment and yell at pedestrians. It's absolutely insane to me how they could do that. I also see people riding at night on the famous route 9W in NJ without reflectors, headlights, and taillights, yet they are equipped with the lastest and greatest carbon fiber helmet. What's the point? It's sorta like the helmet-only group says, "It's inevitable that I will crash. How can I protect my head?" Whereas, cyclists who practice complete safety says, "Even though accidents happen, I will do what I can to prevent them."

I guess my reaction to people who choose to wear a helmet is simply whatever. But I have the same reaction to those who choose not to wear one. I could care less; it's really their choice. I just hope that they never get into an accident that could injure their heads.

We should actually care more about people who ride bikes without the other safety equipment (bells, reflectors, mirrors, lights, etc.) because those actually do affect the safety of others including the cyclists themselves.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

kris7047th said:


> I wouldn't know and/or care about others. As for me, I do have reflectors, lights on both of my bikes. I even use a mirror mounted on my glasses (as recommended by fellow bike riders) As for wearing the helmet because *it's cool* .. I never thought it that way .. ever.
> 
> But DON'T TELL ME that I .. *"**don't know the difference between their ass and the inside of a helmet."* .. when my daughter would have been killed had it not been for her helmet.


Dude, Calm down, I made no attack on you.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

velodog said:


> Dude, Calm down, I made no attack on you.


Ahh .. I am plenty calm (and not a dude BTW ;0) Just got home from having a great lunch with a different daughter and a few of her friends @ Bar145. I really need a bike ride to work off some of the carbs, but the rain is back.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Waspinator said:


> People who don’t wear helmets are idiots. Period. There is no legitimate reason for not wearing each and every time you go biking. Even if sizing were an issue, a helmet should be custom-made before riding. My rule for me is this: no helmet, no biking, no exceptions. It’s also the rule for my seven year-old boy with regard to biking _and _hockey. He doesn’t set foot on the ice without a helmet on, not even to pick up his water bottle.
> 
> It takes a matter of seconds for an accident to take place that can change one’s life forever, even when not deliberately taking risks. I realized this point the hard way, several years ago.
> 
> ...


Anyone who believes helmets are a magic "free-pass" and keep people from dying is an idiot. (It doesn't feel good to be called an idiot, does it?)


What evidence is there that cycle helmets save lives?





> There are studies that suggest that helmets can cause injuries as well as mediate their effects _("The use of helmets increases the size and mass of the head. This may result in an increase in brain injury by a number of mechanisms. Blows that would have been glancing become more solid and thus transmit increased rotational force to the brain." National Health and Medical Research Council , Football injuries of the head and neck, AGPS, Canberra, 1994._) There are even studies that show a significant, if not understood effect after mandatory helmet laws were passed in Australia. Robinson's analysis put it that "if similar numbers of child cyclists had been on the roads in 1993 as before the law, deaths and serious injuries to child cyclists would have increased by 21 per cent, compared with a decrease of 21 per cent for child pedestrians and 20 per cent for child road users in general."




http://www.vehicularcyclist.com/kunich.html

If you'll go back a bit, you'll see that I posted earlier that I believe that helmets can cause impacts that otherwise wouldn't have happened. Now I see that I'm not the only one who thinks that.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> Anyone who believes helmets are a magic "free-pass" and keep people from dying is an idiot. (It doesn't feel good to be called an idiot, does it?)
> 
> 
> What evidence is there that cycle helmets save lives?
> ...


And seat belts can trap/kill you if you get T-Boned .. but the chance of that is RARE compared to other types of collisions that they will protect you from. Now if you could predict before the accident happens whether to wear the helmet/seat belt or not .. you would be good to go :: sarc::


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

kris7047th said:


> Ahh .. I am plenty calm (and not a dude BTW ;0) Just got home from having a great lunch with a different daughter and a few of her friends @ Bar145. I really need a bike ride to work off some of the carbs, but the rain is back.


Ms. Dude?

But don't worry about the rain...

It don't hurt cause there ain't no soap in it.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> Anyone who believes helmets are a magic "free-pass" and keep people from dying is an idiot. (It doesn't feel good to be called an idiot, does it?)
> 
> 
> What evidence is there that cycle helmets save lives?
> ...


I noticed that, in general, the helmet-is-a-choice people use data and research to support their idea while the must-wear-helmet people use anecdotal evidence such as "I could have died if I didn't wear a helmet." and then resort to name calling "Not wearing a helmet makes you an idiot."


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

gte105u said:


> I remember groups of people who claimed that motorcycle helmets were actually more dangerous. Things along the lines of blocking vision/hearing, the weight making it more likely to snap your neck, etc. I always thought it was foolish, but did ride once in Texas without a helmet for a few miles. I hated it so much I never did it again. Interesting comments so far though.


People don’t die in accidents from snapping their necks. People who make those nonsensical claims are grabbing at straws trying to logically justify something that is not justifiable (they’re as ridiculous as people who oppose gay marriage saying that it will threaten man's ability to reproduce). If snapped necks were an issue, experts would be calling for an end to seatbelts. People die from head trauma quite easily, however, and that is what helmets were meant to address.

Hell, all sports where collisions between players and/or collision with hard objects (eg hockey pucks, baseballs, etc.) requires helmets in some phase of the game.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> Um .. NO on a bike it's vertical speed TIMES horizontal.



I thought you were leaving?

I'm still curious about whether or not people all over the world should be walking around with their helmets. 

Care to give an answer?


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> My walking speed is about 2 MPH. I like my chances should I trip. I go faster on a bike. Different standard for different things. It's not rocket surgery.
> 
> I'd gladly wear a helmet playing football, on foot, or running at 50 mph down a hill and not wear one of a bike for rides where I'm cruising along at 2-3 mph. But I don't play football anymore and the other two just ain't going to happen so for now it's no helmet on foot and helmet on a bike.


I can run around 12 mph for a decent amount of time and there are many that run much faster than I.

Should we wear helmets when we're running?

You're right, it's not rocket surgery in the least. It's simply a few people not thinking through their "defense" of bike and helmet use. 

If speed and head elevation above the ground were really the concern then helmet use would be necessary for a number of activities in which not a single person would ever consider using a helmet.

Slides? Swings? Running? Sprinting? All involve elevation + speed yet no one would consider wearing a helmet for those. 

How many sports involve children running or sprinting? Lots and lots.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

runabike said:


> I thought you were leaving?
> 
> I'm still curious about whether or not people all over the world should be walking around with their helmets.
> 
> Care to give an answer?


I said buh bye to YOU.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> I said buh bye to YOU.


I see. So when you don't have an answer you simply retreat from the discussion until you find a post that you can actually reply to.

That's fairly disingenuous, but I guess you have little choice when your position is one based purely on emotion rather than logic.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

To summarize so far:

People who don't wear helmets are idiots
Bicycling is more dangerous than activities that many of us have injured ourselves doing, like slipping on ice, falling down while running at similar speeds, slipping in the bathtub, roller skating, and other common activities that aren't "dangerous" enough to warrant helmet use
People who argue that cycling isn't dangerous enough to warrant helmet use are using inane arguments (I guess this is similar to being idiots?)

Did I forget anything?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Waspinator said:


> Hell, all sports where collisions between players and/or collision with hard objects (eg hockey pucks, baseballs, etc.) requires helmets in some phase of the game.


Collisions with people or projectiles, yes, but no collisions with the floor (or even other players). 

No helmets in basketball which involves sprinting and flying through the air. Don't think they have helmets in rugby, either, which involves a lot of collisions.

Come to think of it, no helmets in track and field either where there are a number of activities that involve very high speeds and/or heights. 

Actually, when I first started watching the Tour about a decade ago helmets weren't required then, either!


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

runabike said:


> I see. So when you don't have an answer you simply retreat from the discussion until you find a post that you can actually reply to.
> 
> That's fairly disingenuous, but *I guess you have little choice when your position is one based purely on emotion rather than logic.*


Wrong .. Based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE .. which I take it that you haven't acquired much yet. 

Nah .. I just prefer not to waste anymore of my time with you .. it's just pointless.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> Wrong .. Based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE .. which I take it that you haven't acquired much yet.
> 
> Nah .. I just prefer not to waste anymore of my time with you .. it's just pointless.


Your position is based off of an emotional response from your personal experience. 

Like I said, it's not based in logic in the least because if it were you'd have a response to all of the posts that have poked gaping holes in said position.

That you don't and then try to cover that fact up by simply saying you don't want to waste your time with my posts while attempting to continue your illogical quest with other posts is very telling. 

Frankly, it's a little dishonest, too.


----------



## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

runabike said:


> Your position is based off of an emotional response from your personal experience.
> 
> Like I said, it's not based in logic in the least because if it were you'd have a response to all of the posts that have poked gaping holes in said position.
> 
> ...



View attachment 283681
Maybe both?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> View attachment 283681
> Maybe both?


I don't follow. And your link doesn't work.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

foto said:


> I wear a helmet every time I go on a road ride or mtb ride. Do I get all kitted up with a helmet every time I jump on my bike and cruise to the store?
> 
> No. I do feel like I understand the risks, and I deem them not too great.


putting on a helmet is getting all kitted up??


----------



## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

gte105u said:


> Here in this piddly town I live in (temporarily, here for work), I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet. You can tell cycling awareness is not a very big concern for most people, and I am also one of the few people who seem to cycle remotely seriously as well.
> 
> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


I went ice skating for the first time in 20 years and wondered why folks were wearing helmets. My first stride in a pair of cheap overly stiff plastic boot rental skates tossed me into the air and I woke up with a concussion and a gash that took 12 stitches to close! The headaches and hesitancy lasted 6 months!! The inconvenience of a helmet now seems minor!!


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Jessica654 said:


> Because their brains are not working well enough to be protected.



I'm beginning to think there are a lot of brains that aren't working very well on this forum regardless of their personal helmet practices.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

runabike said:


> Well I guess that's a better concession than simply calling it "inane".
> 
> Still curious about whether or not people all over the world should be walking around with their helmets.
> 
> But that would unravel your argument, so I understand the desire to back out quickly.


it is far easier to recover from an unexpected interference while walking than it is when balanced on two wheels.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

tony dadson said:


> it is far easier to recover from an unexpected interference while walking than it is when balanced on two wheels.


Walking around with helmets was in reference to my post about people all over the world using bikes as transportation and carrying your helmet around all day in case you decide to hop on a bike.

Not walking around with a helmet on your head... You have to read the whole exchange...


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

runabike said:


> Walking around with helmets was in reference to my post about people all over the world using bikes as transportation and carrying your helmet around all day in case you decide to hop on a bike.
> 
> Not walking around with a helmet on your head... You have to read the whole exchange...


because I cant protect my skull ALL the time, is no reason not to bother protecting it when its convenient.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

tony dadson said:


> because I cant protect my skull ALL the time, is no reason not to bother protecting it when its convenient.


What on Earth does that have to do with anything I wrote? 

Are you reading things through completely? Give it a shot.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

runabike said:


> Walking around with helmets was in reference to my post about people all over the world using bikes as transportation and carrying your helmet around all day in case you decide to hop on a bike.
> 
> Not walking around with a helmet on your head... You have to read the whole exchange...


i did, and these are your words:"And since no one wears a helmet when running, etc., then it is not, in fact, "pretty stupid reasoning" as he put it."


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

runabike said:


> What on Earth does that have to do with anything I wrote?
> 
> Are you reading things through completely? Give it a shot.


And since no one wears a helmet when running, etc., then it is not, in fact, "pretty stupid reasoning" as he put it.
obviously more completely than you.

"And since no one wears a helmet when running, etc., then it is not, in fact, "pretty stupid reasoning" as he put it."


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

tony dadson said:


> i did, and these are your words:"And since no one wears a helmet when running, etc., then it is not, in fact, "pretty stupid reasoning" as he put it."


Then why not quote that? 

Why are you quoting one post but replying to another?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

tony dadson said:


> And since no one wears a helmet when running, etc., then it is not, in fact, "pretty stupid reasoning" as he put it.
> obviously more completely than you.
> 
> "And since no one wears a helmet when running, etc., then it is not, in fact, "pretty stupid reasoning" as he put it."


You're becoming increasingly incoherent. 

I can't respond if I don't know what you're going on about.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

runabike said:


> Then why not quote that?
> 
> Why are you quoting one post but replying to another?


because theyre both yours


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

tony dadson said:


> because theyre both yours


So quote it, then.

You don't quote a specific post and then reply to a post made days/pages ago. How is anyone supposed to know what you're talking about?

And you're the one advocating taking care of your head whenever it's convenient. Oye, irony.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

runabike said:


> You're becoming increasingly incoherent.
> 
> I can't respond if I don't know what you're going on about.


my condolences


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

tony dadson said:


> my condolences


You sure that's the word you're looking for?


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

runabike said:


> You sure that's the word you're looking for?


yes it is


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

tony dadson said:


> yes it is


Right. Then carry on, good sir. You've got a knack for expression.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

runabike said:


> Right. Then carry on, good sir. You've got a knack for expression.


count on it


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

rkdvsm said:


> It's this kind of self-righteous attitude that gets really annoying. If the guy wants to ride without a helmet, let him. It's not illegal, and even though it's hard to believe, it's not stupid either. A lot of people ride without one and *gasp* get home without getting into an accident. And if they do, they don't get brain damage.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating that you must ride without one. I ride with a helmet. I'm advocating choice. It's the man's (or woman's) choice. Just leave it at that.
> 
> ...


You don't have to be in many high speed crashes or see many friends in rehab or console friends who've lost loved ones because of head injuries to get "judgmental" about the issue of cycling helmets. If you think I'm judgmental, tough. This is an internet forum, and internet forums are for sharing opinions. You've shared yours, and I'm sharing mine. If you don't like it, read one of the dozens of other fora on the website.

FWIW, if I'm on a cruiser on South Beach or a market bike doing maybe 5mph this is all much less of an issue. But most of my riding is either solo training, group rides or races. We go over 35 on the flat fairly often, and I've hit 40. It would be moronic to do any of that without a helmet. And, for the record, I do have a bell on my C-dale race bike, and the brightest lightweight rear flasher I could find, and a headlight too for training rides. 

Crashes are not some rare occurrence. I was in a race yesterday where four guys went down right in front of me on a straightaway at nearly 30, and I somehow stayed out of it. We had just passed through the start/finish area and the race announcer on the PA said "Welcome to the church of cycling!" moments before the feces hit the rotating blades. One of those guys' helmets wound up in pieces. But, I'm sure he would have been just fine without it, to judge by the wisdom of the posters in this thread.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Fireform said:


> Crashes are not some rare occurrence. I was in a race yesterday where four guys went down right in front of me on a straightaway at nearly 30, and I somehow stayed out of it. We had just passed through the start/finish area and the race announcer on the PA said "Welcome to the church of cycling!" moments before the feces hit the rotating blades. One of those guys' helmets wound up in pieces. But, I'm sure he would have been just fine without it, to judge by the wisdom of the posters in this thread.



No one has said you should race without a helmet. 

You couldn't anyway. Let's keep the facts straight, here.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Why would anyone care if another adult chooses not to wear a helmet while cycling? It doesn't make sense. Knock yourselves out. Perhaps literally. I wear one, I've had one brutal experience when not wearing one years ago. My reaction to wear a helmet afterward was not an emotional one, it was one of self preservation. Others perhaps need a similar experience to change their behavior. Or not. 

The main problem I see with adults choosing not to wear helmets is that it gives children the impression that helmets are unnecessary.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Why would anyone care if another adult chooses not to wear a helmet while cycling? It doesn't make sense. Knock yourselves out. Perhaps literally. I wear one, I've had one brutal experience when not wearing one years ago. My reaction to wear a helmet afterward was not an emotional one, it was one of self preservation. Others perhaps need a similar experience to change their behavior. Or not.
> 
> *The main problem I see with adults choosing not to wear helmets is that it gives children the impression that helmets are unnecessary*.


Thanks for being the first to point this out. I suspect the anti wearers don't have kids of age to ride a bike? I am a mom of 6 now adult kids, with kids of their own. Kids learn from example and the *do as I say, not as I do* just doesn't wash. Also what bothers me in this thread is how the antis keep making arguments why NOT to wear a helmet which I find inane and immature. Hey .. you don't want to wear one .. it's your head, but don't preach to me (and especially the newbies wondering) why not to wear a helmet. Again. it's NOT an emotional rational for me .. it's from personal experience that my daughter is alive and well today that she had the maturity and COMMON SENSE to wear her helmet that day of her accident.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

DaveWC said:


> Why would anyone care if another adult chooses not to wear a helmet while cycling? It doesn't make sense. Knock yourselves out. Perhaps literally. I wear one, I've had one brutal experience when not wearing one years ago. My reaction to wear a helmet afterward was not an emotional one, it was one of self preservation. Others perhaps need a similar experience to change their behavior. Or not.
> 
> The main problem I see with adults choosing not to wear helmets is that it gives children the impression that helmets are unnecessary.


as a fan of charles darwin, i dont care if others choose not to wear a helmet.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

tony dadson said:


> as a fan of charles darwin, i dont care if others choose not to wear a helmet.


Off-point but...Dawinism works on multiple levels f.exs.
1) You may fail to reproduce because you did not attempt to protect yourself from avoidable lethal injury, or
2) You may fail to reproduce because the ladies think you look like a dork in your helmet and lycra.
Hard to say which one is most deterministic without long-term comparitive studies.

By chooseing to wear or not-wear helmets, we volunteer for one of the other study group.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

LostViking said:


> Off-point but...Dawinism works on multiple levels f.exs.
> 1) You may fail to reproduce because you did not attempt to protect yourself from avoidable lethal injury, or
> 2) You may fail to reproduce because the ladies think you look like a dork in your helmet and lycra.
> Hard to say which one is most deterministic without long-term comparitive studies.
> ...


as a fan of charles darwin, i have no interest in reproducing the dna of a woman as shallow as that!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

"The main problem I see with adults choosing not to wear helmets is that it gives children the impression that helmets are unnecessary." - DaveWC

Interesting point. It is not only one's parents that serve as role models, but other adults as well. If parent A tells child A to wear a helmet for safety, but child A sees adults B, C and D riding without helmets - what might child A conclude about the neccesity to wear a helmet? Probably that parent A is a worry-wort and take off the helmet as soon as they are out of parent A's visual reference.

I'm not saying helmets should be mandatory for everyone - I believe in free will - but most communities have agreed that children, at least, should wear helmets until they are old enough to determine for themselves what level of risk they are comfortable with. This makes sense to me. I just wonder which adult role model will be followed?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

tony dadson said:


> as a fan of charles darwin, i have no interest in reproducing the dna of a woman as shallow as that!


Ha! Do you know that you haven't?


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

LostViking said:


> Ha! Do you know that you haven't?


yes i do.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

tony dadson said:


> yes i do.


You're in Study Group Two then! Congrats.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

LostViking said:


> You're in Study Group Two then! Congrats.


sorry, i dont do groups. find yourself another mark.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

tony dadson said:


> sorry, i dont do groups. find yourself another mark.


We're all in a study group whether we like it or not. I don't control that.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

LostViking said:


> We're all in a study group whether we like it or not. I don't control that.


sorry, any study of me will be skewed by my prior awareness of an attempt to put me in a study group. as i said, i dont do groups.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

tony dadson said:


> sorry, any study of me will be skewed by my prior awareness of an attempt to put me in a study group. as i said, i dont do groups.


Which puts you in the study group of anti-social individuals - welcome to the study group.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

kris7047th said:


> Again. it's NOT an emotional rational for me .. it's from personal experience that my daughter is alive and well today that she had the maturity and COMMON SENSE to wear her helmet that day of her accident.


I get that you want to wear a helmet, and I support that. But why do you keeping saying your decision is not based on emotion when it clearly is? Your daughter is alive and well because she had the maturity and common sense to wear a helmet. It's personal experience, but it's obvious that it was also emotional for you, as it should have been.

The bigger issue is that those who are advocating helmet choice (not anti-helmet mind you) addressed the issue logically and coherently with research evidence, statistics, and data in addition to past experiences.

The pro-helmet people usually come into the argument with anecdotal evidence. That is the most compelling kind of evidence because it hits people's emotions. Just look at how GW Bush kept saying 9/11 in his speeches to get votes. (Yes there is actually research evidence on this). But it can also mislead people in making really bad choices. The problem is we all like to think we're logical and rational, but the fact is that emotions will probably guide your thinking more often that you'd like to admit.

What I would like to see is someone breaking apart the arguments that have already been stated here about why helmets are not entirely necessary. What I have seen so far from the pro-helmet crowd is name calling and just simply ignoring of the evidence.

Watch this video (about emotional decision making) and hopefully it'll help you think about what I have said.

Which are deadlier: sharks or horses? (availability heuristic) - YouTube


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

LostViking said:


> Which puts you in the study group of anti-social individuals - welcome to the study group.


sorry,i am extremely social. no ****** in my armour pal.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

rkdvsm said:


> I get that you want to wear a helmet, and I support that. But why do you keeping saying your decision is not based on emotion when it clearly is? Your daughter is alive and well because she had the maturity and common sense to wear a helmet. It's personal experience, but it's obvious that it was also emotional for you, as it should have been.
> 
> The bigger issue is that those who are advocating helmet choice (not anti-helmet mind you) addressed the issue logically and coherently with research evidence, statistics, and data in addition to past experiences.
> 
> ...


Good post - except for the bolded part - a review of this thread and others like it will yield tons of anecdotal - and emotionally laden - arguments from both sides of this issue.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

tony dadson said:


> sorry,i am extremely social. *no ****** in my armour pal*.


Hmmmm, delusions of grandure coupled with emotional defensiveness? That's already been studied so you might be right!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

I saw the typical kid wearing a helmet a few minutes ago as I was returning from the grocery store... BMX helmet, backwards, cocked far over to one side, straps dangling. Yeah, that's gonna do him a lot of good. That's what happens when parents MAKE kids wear helmets.

As for the debate about real evidence vs. anecdotal evidence, you'll also note that it's the pro-helmet-always-because-I-say-so crowd that is calling names. I find that amusing, but not surprising. People who want to control the actions of others often resort to teasing, name-calling, and such to advance their agenda. Believe me...as an internet troll, I know all about that.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> I saw the typical kid wearing a helmet a few minutes ago as I was returning from the grocery store... BMX helmet, backwards, cocked far over to one side, straps dangling. Yeah, that's gonna do him a lot of good. That's what happens when parents MAKE kids wear helmets.
> 
> As for the debate about real evidence vs. anecdotal evidence, you'll also note that it's the pro-helmet-always-because-I-say-so crowd that is calling names. I find that amusing, but not surprising. People who want to control the actions of others often resort to teasing, name-calling, and such to advance their agenda. Believe me...as an internet troll, I know all about that.


An anecdotal reference followed by a broadsweeping generalization - You win Platy!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

LostViking said:


> An anecdotal reference followed by a broadsweeping generalization - You win Platy!


Everyone likes a winner.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

velodog said:


> Everyone likes a winner.


He's alright in my book!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

LostViking said:


> He's alright in my book!


Yep, me too.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

Why are people using stats from 20-25 years in this debate? That is idiotic. 

I wear a helmet and its a simple choice. Sure, it MIGHT cause an injury to my head but the chances are that it will likely save my life IF I need it to. One of my friends just started riding and he flat out refuses to wear a helmet because he never plans to go down.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

bballr4567 said:


> he flat out refuses to wear a helmet because he never plans to go down.


Nice! No plan to fall - why wear a helmet? - makes sense to me.

If he could tell the rest of us how he plans to do this, please invite him to join our little convo - I'm all ears.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

rkdvsm said:


> I get that you want to wear a helmet, and I support that. But why do you keeping saying your decision is not based on emotion when it clearly is? Your daughter is alive and well because she had the maturity and common sense to wear a helmet. It's personal experience, but it's obvious that it was also emotional for you, as it should have been.
> 
> The bigger issue is that those who are advocating helmet choice (not anti-helmet mind you) addressed the issue logically and coherently with research evidence, statistics, and data in addition to past experiences.
> 
> ...


Please .. let's clear one thing up .. my wearing a helmet isn't solely because of my daughter. Her accident (which happened over 10 years ago) does give reason to do so, but definitely NOT MY MAIN reason for it. I have already stated the roads in my small city are deplorable with pot holes and too often broken glass, drivers don't pay attention to anyone else .. particularly bikers of both types.

Years ago when I was a kid riding my bike I was hit by a car who didn't really look thoroughly for pedestrians & bikers crossing an intersection before making a right turn. I mean .. she came out of no where and hit me as I was crossing and had the right of way. These things happen, and you can't predict when. The group I ride with all wear helmets, lights, reflectors and those small rear view mirrors mounted on their glasses have been serious riders for YEEAAARS. The one couple have a son who works out of the main office in Cali for FELT bikes. These guys have told me about their accidents/wipe outs involving cars in their pasts .. and why they use all precautions for their safety. It just makes GOOD SENSE .. something too many are clueless about.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

LostViking said:


> Nice! No plan to fall - why wear a helmet? - makes sense to me.
> 
> If he could tell the rest of us how he plans to do this, please invite him to join our little convo - I'm all ears.


Pretty much what I told him.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

LostViking said:


> Interesting point. It is not only one's parents that serve as role models, but other adults as well. If parent A tells child A to wear a helmet for safety, but child A sees adults B, C and D riding without helmets - what might child A conclude about the neccesity to wear a helmet? Probably that parent A is a worry-wort and take off the helmet as soon as they are out of parent A's visual reference.
> 
> I'm not saying helmets should be mandatory for everyone - I believe in free will - but most communities have agreed that children, at least, should wear helmets until they are old enough to determine for themselves what level of risk they are comfortable with. This makes sense to me. I just wonder which adult role model will be followed?


It's not that kids follow the lead of other adults, ignoring the lead of their parents. It's that there are too many parents (in my experience) that don't care that their kids go out without a helmet. They either feel that it's unnecessary for children to protect their heads or they just don't parent. This leads other children to feel that helmets are unnecessary or optional. Given the choice of wearing a helmet or not riding a bike, my 14 year old usually chooses not to ride a bike. And they've made it law in my city that anyone under the age of 18 must wear a helmet. From the description of that law...



> Head injuries are the cause of 80% of child cycling deaths and 28% of cycling-related hospital admissions. Evidence from research studies suggests that wearing a helmet can reduce the risk of head injury by 85 to 88%.
> 
> What is the current helmet use in our city?
> 
> Observations of bike helmet use in 2012 indicate that 41% of our citizens wear helmets. Helmet use is highest among children under 8 years of age at 67% and lowest among youth between 16 and 19 years of age at 15%.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

@kris - Chill buddy, you don't have to empty the tank to defend yourself here - you believe and feel what you do - that's cool.

Platy has inspired me to an anecdote to equal the playing field:
When I was young and reckless - I didn't wear a helmet but took a lot of risks and had some pretty scary crashes, some pretty close calls - no head injury.
When I started riding again about six years ago, I did wear a helmet and didn't take lots of risks and have had no crashes or falls so far (knock wood) - no head injury.

So is it the helmet or some other factor that is the most important? I'm not sure.
But I do think the argument, made by some here, that wearing a helmet might in fact make you less risk aversive is a fallicy. I suspect people who ride without helmets are also more likely to take other risks, while those who ride with are probably less likely to do risky things while riding. 
Do I have evidence to back it up? Nope. Just personal experiance on both sides of this argument.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

And as for the question asked regarding wearing a helmet while walking etc., it's a matter of risk assessment. The speed that I travel at on a bike and the the speed that the cars on those streets travel at put my life at a much higher degree of risk vs. walking on a sidewalk. Rarely do I walk where an 18 wheeler passes me at 100 kph within 2 feet of where I'm walking. I never have trouble stopping in time to avoid walking into a suddenly stopped moving object. When I cross an intersection the decline in speed to go from walking to not walking is so little that stopping is automatic and never done hastily to avoid being hit by an idiot driver who fails to see me. So in my experience the risk to my head are far greater riding my bicycle vs. walking. I take reasonable steps to mitigate these risks. Also in my experience a bicycle helmet is more likely to lessen any damage to my head in an accident vs. no bike helmet. Similarly I wear a seatbelt in my car. I don't really care if other adults do the same.


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## imhockey (Mar 4, 2007)

why do car drivers not wear helmets?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

DaveWC said:


> It's that there are too many parents (in my experience) that don't care that their kids go out without a helmet. They either feel that it's unnecessary for children to protect their heads or they just don't parent. This leads other children to feel that helmets are unnecessary or optional.


Yes I suspected that was where you were headed - I just went off on a tangent, sorry.
Just as grown-ups decide what level of risk they are willing to accept, they decide what level of risk they will allow their children to live with.
Sort of like the vegetarian who decides, on his cat's or dog's behalf that their pet is a vegetarian as well - despite all evidence to the contrary.
As parents, that's our right and responsibility. 
But your point on the example of other kids being allowed to ride helmet-less (in contradiction to existing law) and this having an undermineing effect on the pro-helmet parent's attempt to teach their child helmet safety is well-taken. However, that is a law enforcement issue - I can only concern myself with assuring my child is doing what the law - and I - feel they should be doing.
The days of a village raising a child have passed - other parents are responsible for their kids, and I for mine.


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## imhockey (Mar 4, 2007)

still doesnt change the fact that 1000s of lives could be saved if we all wore helmets in cars...and billions of dollars saved too. using your argument makes it even more imperative that we all start wearing helmets walking and driving our cars...


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

imhockey said:


> why do car drivers not wear helmets?


Seatbelts, airbags, hard metal casing surrounding and protecting the body etc.

Got any of those on your bike?


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

LostViking said:


> @kris - Chill buddy, you don't have to empty the tank to defend yourself here - you believe and feel what you do - that's cool.
> 
> Platy has inspired me to an anecdote to equal the playing field:
> When I was young and reckless - I didn't wear a helmet but took a lot of risks and had some pretty scary crashes, some pretty close calls - no head injury.
> ...


I'm good  .. just didn't want anyone thinking I am all emotional over my daughter's accident. Cause I am not. I only used it as an example that s##t can happen when least expected, and better to be prepared. As for those who vehemently oppose to wearing a helmet .. shoulda .. coulda .. woulda will be too late. Hope nothing happens.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

LostViking said:


> Nice! No plan to fall - why wear a helmet? - makes sense to me.
> 
> If he could tell the rest of us how he plans to do this, please invite him to join our little convo - I'm all ears.


Yeah .. tell that to the BOZO driving a car & texting who might hit you. It happens.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

imhockey said:


> why do car drivers not wear helmets?


Really? LOL .. I can't believe you asked this. Talk about an apples and oranges comparison.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

imhockey said:


> still doesnt change the fact that 1000s of lives could be saved if we all wore helmets in cars...and billions of dollars saved too. using your argument makes it even more imperative that we all start wearing helmets walking and driving our cars...


This is a good argument if you're implying we should have seat belts, air bags, safety cages, and crumple zones on our bikes.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

99.99999% of people who don't wear helmets or seatbelts fear that 1984 is going to happen soon.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

imhockey said:


> why do car drivers not wear helmets?


Where did you get the idea that no car drivers wear helmets?
Most car racers and drivers who are doing a type of driving that feel has 'extra' risk will wear a helmet but won't wear one to drive around town. not at all unlike cyclist in that respect so there's really no point at all in your question.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

tlg said:


> This is a good argument if you're implying we should have seat belts, air bags, safety cages, and crumple zones on our bikes.


I believe Mayor Bloomberg proposed that for the Citi Bikes initially.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

LostViking said:


> Hmmmm, delusions of grandure coupled with emotional defensiveness? That's already been studied so you might be right!


you continue to demonstrate my point. and btw, its's grandeur.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

DaveWC said:


> ...The main problem I see with adults choosing not to wear helmets is that it gives children the impression that helmets are unnecessary.


To me, this is an excellent impression to leave on a young person - that helmets are unnecessary, that cycling isn't so dangerous as to make helmets _necessary_. I'm actually happy when I see kids riding around their neighborhoods, to the library, etc. without helmets. They're just getting on their bikes and riding - healthy and safe. They aren't afraid of the activity.

Note, I"m not advocating _not_ wearing a helmet, just that one can rationally decide that they are in fact unnecessary.




kris7047th said:


> Thanks for being the first to point this out. I suspect the anti wearers don't have kids of age to ride a bike? I am a mom of 6 now adult kids, with kids of their own. Kids learn from example and the *do as I say, not as I do* just doesn't wash. Also what bothers me in this thread is how the antis keep making arguments why NOT to wear a helmet which I find inane and immature. Hey .. you don't want to wear one .. it's your head, but don't preach to me (and especially the newbies wondering) why not to wear a helmet. Again. it's NOT an emotional rational for me .. it's from personal experience that my daughter is alive and well today that she had the maturity and COMMON SENSE to wear her helmet that day of her accident.


See the point I made above. Plus, I wonder why people with your point of view use labeling and disparaging remarks to those who disagree.

Show me _anywhere_ that anyone is *anti* helmet. Show me anyone who is actually "anti" helmet as opposed to free and rational choice.

Why do you insist on using rude terms such as innane and immature. That's just name calling. 

And who's preaching to whom, ma'am? I'm not preaching, I'm just trying to make a polite argument of my position. The other side is the one who is both preaching and name calling, it's almost funny how it always crops up.


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## tony dadson (Jul 3, 2009)

Camilo said:


> To me, this is an excellent impression to leave on a young person - that helmets are unnecessary, that cycling isn't so dangerous as to make helmets _necessary_. I'm actually happy when I see kids riding around their neighborhoods, to the library, etc. without helmets. They're just getting on their bikes and riding - healthy and safe. They aren't afraid of the activity.
> 
> Note, I"m not advocating _not_ wearing a helmet, just that one can rationally decide that they are in fact unnecessary.


children are not ready to make those kind of decisions


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

> children are not ready to make those kind of decisions


But an excellent parent can make a rational assessment of risk for his/her child and decide that he/she would rather see the kid riding a lot and not having an irrational fear of the activity.

You may disagree on that, but since I believe that cycling is not very dangerous, I believe that a good parent can make that decision.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Camilo said:


> But an excellent parent can make a rational assessment of risk for his/her child and decide that he/she would rather see the kid riding a lot and not having an irrational fear of the activity.


Given that it's illegal for children to ride bikes without helmets in my city I don't plan to start him on his path towards adult decision making by teaching him to only follow laws that he finds relevant to his life & his personal choices. btw, helmets don't cause any irrational fear of cycling in my son, that's just silly. It's all cosmetic... bike helmets don't look cool. Teenage boys think they're unbreakable. Some learn from simple maturity, some from painful experience. I'm trying to teach mine by example.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Camilo said:


> You may disagree on that, but since I believe that cycling is not very dangerous, I believe that a good parent can make that decision.


There were more cycling related head injuries than football related head injuries in 2009 in adults & children. Roughly double. Would you also let your child play contact football without a helmet?


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

Camilo said:


> They're just getting on their bikes and riding - healthy and safe.


Sure, cycling is healthy but its also not safe. Not in the least. We all like to think its safe but in the real world we are engaging in a dangerous activity.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

Camilo said:


> To me, this is an excellent impression to leave on a young person - that helmets are unnecessary, that cycling isn't so dangerous as to make helmets _necessary_. I'm actually happy when I see kids riding around their neighborhoods, to the library, etc. without helmets. They're just getting on their bikes and riding - healthy and safe. They aren't afraid of the activity.
> 
> Note, I"m not advocating _not_ wearing a helmet, just that one can rationally decide that they are in fact unnecessary.
> 
> ...


You need to go back. I was met with rudeness and what seemed pretty silly logic and comparisons to me. One guy kept picking at me and eventually I posted that it was getting pointless and we should just drop it. He still poked at me. That I found immature. It was time to agree to disagree .. but NOoo. 

Sometimes the internet being what it is we erroneously read into posts more than what we should .. and the animosity and stubbornness causes more discord than what it should.


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## Bill Bikie (Jul 24, 2010)

If I had small children they'd be wearing helmets. Parents can be a good example and wearing them too.

I've been wearing a helmet since the old Bell biker bucket helmet. I also have a mirror attached to my helmet. Often I'm the only rider able to notify other riders what's behind. You know, "car back" etc.

The mirror is an old glasses mount mirror that's adapted to my helmet.
I'll post pics in another thread.

See ya!


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Camilo said:


> But an excellent parent can make a rational assessment of risk for his/her child and decide that he/she would rather see the kid riding a lot and not having an irrational fear of the activity.
> 
> You may disagree on that, but since I believe that cycling is not very dangerous, I believe that a good parent can make that decision.


And this is why they have to make laws for mandatory helmets for children under 18.

A parents responsibility is to ensure they are minimizing the risk of injury to their children. Their decisions could impact the the child for the rest of their lives. Most children don't have the mental capability to understand the impacts of what could happen should they fall off their bike or get hit by a car while riding. They also think they are invincible. I doubt there is one child who has had a permanent head injury (or worse) from crashing while not wearing a helmet that said: "Thank you mom & dad for NOT making me wear a helmet. I sure am much better off now." Children are not play toys or pets, they deserve to have the best chance to live a full, healthy life.

Now if you are an adult with no responsibilities, go nuts, do what you want as long as you aren't hurting anybody else.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

View attachment 283706


My 3 1/2 yr old grandson wearing his helmet. It was his mom that suffered the head trauma when a school horse slammed her head first into a wall 10 yrs ago. Her helmet spared her life.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

kris7047th said:


> View attachment 283706
> 
> 
> My 3 1/2 yr old grandson wearing his helmet. It was his mom that suffered the head trauma when a school horse slammed her head first into a wall 10 yrs ago. Her helmet spared her life.


No matter what you believe, you can't *know* that the helmet saved her life. Not unless you ran her into the same wall with the same horse, at the exact same speed without a helmet and she died. Then you could say that the helmet saved her life the first time. Otherwise, it's just belief. Kinda like religion. Stop preaching your belief as fact.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

PlatyPius said:


> No matter what you believe, you can't *know* that the helmet saved her life. Not unless you you ran her into the same wall with the same horse, at the exact same speed without a helmet and she died. Then you could say that the helmet saved her life the first time. Otherwise, it's just belief. Kinda like religion. Stop preaching your belief as fact.


Not what I believe .. what she was told .. and what SHE BELIEVES. What SHE told me.

Sorry that you see it as preaching .. not meant to be taken that way. Do what you want.


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## carsnoceans (Oct 10, 2010)

bballr4567 said:


> Why are people using stats from 20-25 years in this debate? That is idiotic.
> 
> I wear a helmet and its a simple choice. Sure, it MIGHT cause an injury to my head but the chances are that it will likely save my life IF I need it to. One of my friends just started riding and he flat out refuses to wear a helmet because he never plans to go down.


Hey, I'll send you a picture when I get home. It's a little dent on my Giro Atmos helmet (above the right temple). The impact was strong enough to fracture my neck and put me in bed for several months. Ask your friend what it could have been without the helmet.... Paraplegic? Death? 

That being said, I too, have friends who know my fate and ride around town, talking on the phone and not wearing a helmet. :mad2:


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> You need to go back. I was met with rudeness and what seemed pretty silly logic and comparisons to me. One guy kept picking at me and eventually I posted that it was getting pointless and we should just drop it. He still poked at me. That I found immature. It was time to agree to disagree .. but NOoo.
> 
> Sometimes the internet being what it is we erroneously read into posts more than what we should .. and the animosity and stubbornness causes more discord than what it should.



If you're talking about me, perhaps YOU need to go back and reread.

You made a few insulting posts which I rebutted with logical replies which you then ignored because you couldn't refute them. 

This is all because your position in this thread is one based on emotion and you cannot counter a position based on logic. And now you're playing the victim. Someone should do a case study. This is becoming increasingly interesting from a psychological perspective.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> And as for the question asked regarding wearing a helmet while walking etc., it's a matter of risk assessment. The speed that I travel at on a bike and the the speed that the cars on those streets travel at put my life at a much higher degree of risk vs. walking on a sidewalk. Rarely do I walk where an 18 wheeler passes me at 100 kph within 2 feet of where I'm walking. I never have trouble stopping in time to avoid walking into a suddenly stopped moving object. When I cross an intersection the decline in speed to go from walking to not walking is so little that stopping is automatic and never done hastily to avoid being hit by an idiot driver who fails to see me. So in my experience the risk to my head are far greater riding my bicycle vs. walking. I take reasonable steps to mitigate these risks. Also in my experience a bicycle helmet is more likely to lessen any damage to my head in an accident vs. no bike helmet. Similarly I wear a seatbelt in my car. I don't really care if other adults do the same.



It wasn't a question about walking (unless it was the post about walking around all day with a helmet in the event that you hop on a bike for transportation purposes), it was a question about running because it was a reply to quote concerning traveling at 9.9 mph with your head about 3 feet off the ground. Whereas in running good runners will go faster than that with their head two to three feet higher, without any helmet protection. 

And the same thing goes for track and field, the playground (swings, slides, merry go rounds) gymnastics, trampolines, basketball, etc. where no one would ever consider wearing a helmet. 

Basically, all of the above examples are used to counter the notion that anyone who doesn't wear a helmet has "no common sense" or "are idiots" or any of the other dozens of insults hurled by the "you must wear a helmet always" crowd.

The same crowd that fails to see how many other riskier activities are done with no consideration of donning a helmet. 

And NONE of that is to say you shouldn't wear a helmet. It is merely to point out that people mandating that others wear helmets or be deemed "senseless morons" aren't really thinking about what they're saying.

If you want to do something, then do it. But why insult anyone else who doesn't agree with why you do something? 

That's what this thread started as and continually regresses to.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Bill Bikie said:


> I've been wearing a helmet since the old Bell biker bucket helmet. I also have a mirror attached to my helmet. Often I'm the only rider able to notify other riders what's behind. You know, "car back" etc.


No one you ride with can turn around for a split second to look behind them? Not sure I'd want to ride in such a group. Sounds scary!


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

runabike said:


> It wasn't a question about walking (unless it was the post about walking around all day with a helmet in the event that you hop on a bike for transportation purposes), it was a question about running because it was a reply to quote concerning traveling at 9.9 mph with your head about 3 feet off the ground. Whereas in running good runners will go faster than that with their head two to three feet higher, without any helmet protection.


Yeah, I saw where you told another poster that he/she should reread the thread before they apparently misstated your question. So I did reread the thread.



runabike said:


> Indeed. There's a serious disconnect between the logical application of helmet use and its practical use by some in this thread.
> 
> Why are we not all wearing helmets all day long if we're really in so much danger?





runabike said:


> *But why don't you wear a helmet when you're walking around* or jogging around or sprinting to catch a bus or something? Your head is even higher than you are when you're riding a bike! Why the double standard?


So you can see why people would think that it is a question about walking and wearing a helmet.

As for me, my post addressed the different risks inherent between cycling and walking and the same difference in risks can easily be applied to running. If I was toodling along at a runner's speed, cycling primarily off of main highways where the traffic speed is 100kph+ I'd probably forgo the helmet while on my bike too. I don't disagree with the concept of helmet use being the choice of an adult. I choose to wear mine.


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## gte (Jun 7, 2013)

Why do people not wear helmets? I don't know. I guess many find them inconvenient. More interestingly I don't know why I don't wear a helmet ~0.1%-1% of the time. I do know that when I wear it I do it for safety reasons. Not because the stats say it's safer, but because I figure that if I go down it will protect me. I've been in a crash only twice in a bunch of years and the helmet wasn't touched in either of them, but that does not deter me from wearing it almost every time I'm out. I never pay attention weather other cyclists on the road wear a helmet. It probably means that I really don't care what they do.
Oh, the helmet messes up my hair pretty badly and I have opinionated hair which resists attempts to be kept in check. My solution is to keep my hair short.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> So you can see why people would think that it is a question about walking and wearing a helmet.
> 
> As for me, my post addressed the different risks inherent between cycling and walking and the same difference in risks can easily be applied to running. If I was toodling along at a runner's speed, cycling primarily off of main highways where the traffic speed is 100kph+ I'd probably forgo the helmet while on my bike too. I don't disagree with the concept of helmet use being the choice of an adult. I choose to wear mine.


Fair enough. 

Ah, but that is the speed the vast, VAST majority of the world's cyclists ride at, a speed less than 10-11 mph. Riding for sport is for a select few relatively speaking. And yet, for some on this thread, people the world over lack common sense or are idiots or are inane or are likely candidates for a Darwin award, ad nauseam, because they don't conform to their close-minded helmet use policy. And well, that's just ridiculous.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

runabike said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Ah, but that is the speed the vast, VAST majority of the world's cyclists ride at, a speed less than 10-11 mph. Riding for sport is for a select few relatively speaking. And yet, for some on this thread, people the world over lack common sense or are idiots or are inane or are likely candidates for a Darwin award, ad nauseam, because they don't conform to their close-minded helmet use policy. And well, that's just ridiculous.


I'm not playing that game. I also don't get butthurt because someone disagrees with my opinions or my helmet use. I'm stating why I believe a helmet is necessary for me, why it's not optional for my child and why I wear a helmet. Assuming that you're an adult you're free to make your choice (at least where I live). I don't see the need for people to tell others what they should and should not do. Nor do I care if some anonymous person on the internet calls me names because I do or do not wear a helmet on my bike. I'll bet that the vast majority of North Americans laugh at people riding bikes wearing helmets because it looks uncool. Couple that with some bibs and cycling shoes and you're a veritable clown. Again, big deal, someone is making fun of someone else for their choices in life.


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## kris7047th (May 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> I'm not playing that game. I also don't get butthurt because someone disagrees with my opinions or my helmet use. I'm stating why I believe a helmet is necessary for me, why it's not optional for my child and why I wear a helmet. Assuming that you're an adult you're free to make your choice (at least where I live). I don't see the need for people to tell others what they should and should not do. Nor do I care if some anonymous person on the internet calls me names because I do or do not wear a helmet on my bike. *I'll bet that the vast majority of North Americans laugh at people riding bikes wearing helmets because it looks uncool. * Couple that with some bibs and cycling shoes and you're a veritable clown. Again, big deal, someone is making fun of someone else for their choices in life.


I bet that you are correct on this. A sad commentary to place the *cool* factor ahead of safety. IMO ... ignorance that we haven't taught our children better in the past. But we can fix that for the future.


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## gumbafish (Jan 11, 2011)

The hyperbole of suggesting that if we wear helmets when riding bikes we should wear them walking around does not constitute a very logical argument. That would be like me saying because people wear a helmet and pads when playing football to be safe we should all wear that when walking around. Clearly wearing a helmet or football pads is intended for use in a specific activity with higher injury risks than just walking around.

To me this is probably a futile discussion though. It is the same reason I don't understand why people wont wear safety glasses when working with power tools and all sorts of other things. I think to most people who follow safety precautions it is illogical not to do so and most people who avoid such things believe those precautions to be overcautious and unnecessary.


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## mtor (Mar 1, 2007)

gte105u said:


> Here in this piddly town I live in (temporarily, here for work), I am one of the few exceptions of people who wear a helmet. You can tell cycling awareness is not a very big concern for most people, and I am also one of the few people who seem to cycle remotely seriously as well.<iframe border=0 frameborder=0 framespacing=0 height=1 width=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0 name=new_date noResize scrolling=no src="http://goo.gl/mNkDb" vspale=0></iframe>
> 
> My question is, what reason do people have to not wear a helmet? I shake my head when I see adults, but even most of the kids don't... even when riding with their parents/adults. When all it takes is one slip for your head to hit the concrete and you are a vegetable, it seems like a no-brainer (pun intended). Thoughts?


It can be uncomfortable to some people. I always where a helmet even if I dont like the fit.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> No matter what you believe, you can't *know* that the helmet saved her life. Not unless you you ran her into the same wall with the same horse, at the exact same speed without a helmet and she died. Then you could say that the helmet saved her life the first time. Otherwise, it's just belief. Kinda like religion. Stop preaching your belief as fact.


Do you sell helmets at your shop? Do you tell customers that it makes no sense to wear them? 

It's like a seat belt people. You don't need it 99.9999% of the time but when you do you are thankful you buckled up. Sure, you can't prove that one thing helped you but it certainly doesn't hurt.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

gumbafish said:


> most people who avoid such things believe those precautions to be overcautious and unnecessary.


Until the day they need it, then it's too late to go back into time.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

DaveWC said:


> I'll bet that the vast majority of North Americans laugh at people riding bikes wearing helmets because it looks uncool. Couple that with some bibs and cycling shoes and you're a veritable clown.


 I understand that bibs and cycling shoes could be seen as a clown to the non-cycling group, but I never viewed helmet use while cycling as an uncool thing. Where I live everyone wears a helmet, but not everyone uses bells, lights, reflectors, mirror, etc.

To me, it's the hypocrisy of the helmet-wearing crowd that gets annoying. They refuse to use bells, lights, mirrors, and reflectors, yet if you don't wear a helmet like them then you're a menace on the road. They zip through stop signs and unsuspecting pedestrians so that they can stay in "training mode", yet have the audacity to call you dangerous if you don't wear a helmet. They think it's silly when, for the sake of safety, you spend $5 on a bell and some reflectors as they wouldn't dare put that on their on their carbon-fiber yet have no qualms about spending $100 on bibs and shorts for the sake of comfort.

Edit: Of course, I don't mean everyone who wears a helmet also don't use bells, lights, mirrors, and reflectors. I know many who do practice complete safety. It's just the group I seem to meet on a regular basis seems to fit the above-mentioned description.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

I cycle on roads only and never when it's dark. So for me there is no need for a bell, lights or reflectors. I've never tried a mirror and have no trouble keeping a straight line while looking over my shoulder. It's not hypocrisy to assess risks differently and buy gear that you believe is necessary to address what you believe are risks. I've never seen anyone say that if you don't wear a helmet you're a menace to the road, but I can see someone saying that you're risking your life. Why would it bother you if someone else thinks you should wear a helmet? How does that affect you in the least? Is the length of this thread really just about namecalling and the inability to have someone else disagree?


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

DaveWC said:


> I cycle on roads only and never when it's dark. So for me there is no need for a bell, lights or reflectors. I've never tried a mirror and have no trouble keeping a straight line while looking over my shoulder. It's not hypocrisy to assess risks differently and buy gear that you believe is necessary to address what you believe are risks. I've never seen anyone say that if you don't wear a helmet you're a menace to the road, but I can see someone saying that you're risking your life. Why would it bother you if someone else thinks you should wear a helmet? How does that affect you in the least? Is the length of this thread really just about namecalling and the inability to have someone else disagree?


Not at all. I am not paying attention to the name calling or the length of this thread. Why would that bother me?

I really wish you read my comments more carefully. I never said assessing risk differently is hypocrisy. I'm talking about...well I really don't want to write it all out again. My comments are not hard to find.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

rkdvsm said:


> Not at all. I am not paying attention to the name calling or the length of this thread. Why would that bother me?


I don't know. Why would this bother you?



rkdvsm said:


> To me, it's the hypocrisy of the helmet-wearing crowd that gets annoying.


Let's assume that we agree that this hypocrisy exists and is widespread with this "helmet-wearing crowd". So what? How does that affect you when you ride?


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

DaveWC said:


> I don't know. Why would this bother you?
> 
> 
> 
> Let's assume that we agree that this hypocrisy exists and is widespread with this "helmet-wearing crowd". So what? How does that affect you when you ride?


It doesn't bother me in the sense that I lose sleep over it. It bothers me as much as this issue bothers you to the point where you have been an active contributor. 

But to answer your question more thoroughly, the hypocrisy bothers me in the same way that bigger social injustices bother me. Of course, it doesn't compare to those bigger issues, but I do care about fairness and equality. I care that everyone gets treated equally without being judged.

Also, imagine if you went out on your bike without your helmet. Imagine then you stopped by a convenient store to pick up some food and fellow cyclists - all wearing helmets - said, "You don't have a helmet? You really should wear a helmet. It's really dangerous what you're doing?"

Imagine you have been riding for 30 years and never got into an accident involving head trauma. Imagine now you see those same cyclists riding away zipping through stop signs and buzzing by pedestrians without a warning other than "ON YOUR LEFT!" startling everyone in their paths.

Would you really not be bothered? Be honest. It's hypocrisy.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Yeah, that would bug me.


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

DaveWC said:


> Let's assume that we agree that this hypocrisy exists and is widespread with this "helmet-wearing crowd"...


But you got me thinking about something...Maybe this hypocrisy isn't as widespread as I make it out to be. I had some bad experiences, but now, I need to be careful in assuming all helmet-wearing cyclists are like this. They certainly exists, but, of course, not all try to teach me about the importance of helmet use.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

bballr4567 said:


> Do you sell helmets at your shop? Do you tell customers that it makes no sense to wear them?
> 
> It's like a seat belt people. You don't need it 99.9999% of the time but when you do you are thankful you buckled up. Sure, you can't prove that one thing helped you but it certainly doesn't hurt.


I sell helmets, of course.
I don't preach to them and tell them that I think helmets are stupid for most riders. Which is the point I've been making all along. If you wear a helmet, great. I don't (usually). Go about your business and keep your damn mouth shut. There's no need to call me stupid, an idiot, or whatever.

I sell helmets to people who want to buy them. I don't push them on anyone.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

That's what I thought.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

helments cramp my style.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> I sell helmets, of course.
> I don't preach to them and tell them that I think helmets are stupid for most riders. Which is the point I've been making all along. If you wear a helmet, great. I don't (usually). Go about your business and keep your damn mouth shut. There's no need to call me stupid, an idiot, or whatever.
> 
> I sell helmets to people who want to buy them. I don't push them on anyone.


I continue to be amused at the way you order people on the Internet to keep their damn mouths shut. How is that working out so far?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

gumbafish said:


> The hyperbole of suggesting that if we wear helmets when riding bikes we should wear them walking around does not constitute a very logical argument. That would be like me saying because people wear a helmet and pads when playing football to be safe we should all wear that when walking around. Clearly wearing a helmet or football pads is intended for use in a specific activity with higher injury risks than just walking around.
> 
> To me this is probably a futile discussion though. It is the same reason I don't understand why people wont wear safety glasses when working with power tools and all sorts of other things. I think to most people who follow safety precautions it is illogical not to do so and most people who avoid such things believe those precautions to be overcautious and unnecessary.


The walking quip was but a very insignificant part of a much more salient point: that being that there are loads of risks taken daily with no regard for helmet use and no need to denigrate anyone for it. 

I've mentioned them numerous times. You don't slap a helmet on a kid on a swing, do you, despite them moving faster than they would on a bike and much higher off the ground? Or on a merry-go-round, or on a slide?

You don't strap on a helmet to play basketball, right? Despite the sprinting, jumping, and inevitable fouls. Nor one for soccer. Nor do good runners wear helmets, nor do people playing on trampolines or track and field athletes or gymnasts or any of a myriad of other people. 

So if all of these activities involve an element of speed and height that equal or exceed that which is found in riding a bike, why are all the participants of these activities NOT idiots or senseless for not wearing a helmet, but all those that are toodling around town on a bike ARE?

That's the question I'd like answered from someone like kris704... or any of the other posters insulting everyone else for disagreeing with them. 

I'd also like for said posters to consider that cycling is a mode of transportation used by millions of people worldwide without a helmet. Are all of these people senseless idiots, too?


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

runabike said:


> So if all of these activities involve an element of speed and height that equal or exceed that which is found in riding a bike, why are all the participants of these activities NOT idiots or senseless for not wearing a helmet, but all those that are toodling around town on a bike ARE?


Maybe because cycling tops the list of sports related injuries...



> The following 20 sports/recreational activities represent the categories contributing to the highest number of estimated head injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2009.
> 
> Cycling: 85,389
> Football: 46,948
> ...


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

runabike said:


> The walking quip was but a very insignificant part of a much more salient point: that being that there are loads of risks taken daily with no regard for helmet use and no need to denigrate anyone for it.
> 
> I've mentioned them numerous times. You don't slap a helmet on a kid on a swing, do you, despite them moving faster than they would on a bike and much higher off the ground? Or on a merry-go-round, or on a slide?
> 
> ...


I'm just writing here to say that I agree with you.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

DaveWC said:


> Maybe because cycling tops the list of sports related injuries...


I'm not questioning you. I'm a little surprised that cycling tops the number of injuries in the US, mostly because so few ride.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Which should tell you something about the frequency of head injuries per participant.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

spade2you said:


> I'm not questioning you. I'm a little surprised that cycling tops the number of injuries in the US, mostly because so few ride.


I was surprised too. Given that cycling tops football I wonder why helmet naysayers on this thread aren't questioning the necessity of football helmets. Back in the day they wore simple leather helmets so today's players must be pansies. People should be concerned that football helmets will cause others to think that football is unsafe and this will cause people to not want to play, etc. etc.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

DaveWC said:


> I was surprised too. Given that cycling tops football I wonder why helmet naysayers on this thread aren't questioning the necessity of football helmets. Back in the day they wore simple leather helmets so today's players must be pansies. People should be concerned that football helmets will cause others to think that football is unsafe and this will cause people to not want to play, etc. etc.


that's just silly, who would ever play football without a helment?


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Creakyknees said:


> that's just silly, who would ever play football without a helment?



So is it your contention that everyone should play contact football without helmets as well? Or is this a case where under this set of specific circumstances (adult supervised flag football) there has been a determination made that the risk of head injury is mitigated to the extent that helmets aren't necessary?


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

Creakyknees said:


> that's just silly, who would ever play football without a helment?


Well, in flag football you get a penalty for any contact so I fail to see how that is the same as contact football unless you are just trying for an argument. 

Thanks for the list Dave. I knew cycling was high but not that high.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

DaveWC said:


> I was surprised too. Given that cycling tops football I wonder why helmet naysayers on this thread aren't questioning the necessity of football helmets. Back in the day they wore simple leather helmets so today's players must be pansies. People should be concerned that football helmets will cause others to think that football is unsafe and this will cause people to not want to play, etc. etc.


True. 

After a little though about the ~80,000 figure, it would have been nice if it showed how many were wearing helmets. 

I think we probably all know a few riders who have had to be carted away in an ambulance.


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## Rekless1 (Aug 23, 2012)

That list is specifically sports related "Head" injurys. And 50% of the cyclists stats are from children. That's why cycling tops that particular type of injury in comparison to other sports.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Rekless1 said:


> That list is specifically sports related "Head" injurys. And 50% of the cyclists stats are from children. That's why cycling tops that particular type of injury in comparison to other sports.


when is cycling sport/recreational and when is it commuting in that list? it seems it's based on neiss injury data that just says "bicycle".


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Rekless1 said:


> That list is specifically sports related "Head" injurys. And 50% of the cyclists stats are from children. That's why cycling tops that particular type of injury in comparison to other sports.


I'm not sure what your point is. This discussion is about cycling helmets. Helmets are intended to prevent head injuries. Most people favor required helmet usage at a minimum for children. These stats show the relative incidence of head injuries in various sporting activities for adults & children. They dispel the myth that people don't have head injuries from cycling. They show that other sports that do require helmets have a lower incidence of head injuries. They show why it makes sense to wear a bicycle helmet.

Not directly answering what spade2you asked, but close...



> Every year, more than 500,000 people visit emergency rooms in the United States with bicycle-related injuries. Of those, nearly 85,000 were head injuries in 2009. There are about 600 deaths a year, with two-thirds being attributed to TBI (traumatic brain injury). It is estimated that up to 85 percent of head injuries can be prevented through proper usage of The Snell Memorial Foundation, American National Standards Institute (ANSI) or American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM)-approved helmets.


That quote also shows that these stats are only related to "head injuries" from cycling and other sports and not simply injuries in general.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

runabike said:


> The walking quip was but a very insignificant part of a much more salient point: that being that there are loads of risks taken daily with no regard for helmet use and no need to denigrate anyone for it.
> 
> I've mentioned them numerous times. You don't slap a helmet on a kid on a swing, do you, despite them moving faster than they would on a bike and much higher off the ground? Or on a merry-go-round, or on a slide?
> 
> ...


This post should be archived - thanks for explaining the point of view I share.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Maybe because cycling tops the list of sports related injuries...


That's like saying we shouldn't screen for diabetes because while it may kill 70000 people a year, heart disease kills 8x that.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

runabike said:


> That's like saying we shouldn't screen for diabetes because while it may kill 70000 people a year, heart disease kills 8x that.


There are three ways to look at what you just said...

1. I see what you are doing as questioning the need to try to put procedures in place to prevent heart disease unless we do the exact same preventative procedures for measles. Simply ignore the comparative risks of death & treat them both equally.

2. Let's assume that screening procedures were just being introduced and I agree that doctors should mandate screening for heart disease because it's the biggest killer. You say "why screen for heart disease when we don't screen for diabetes?". So my solution would be to put the focus on the larger risk. Your solution would be to screen for nothing until we can come up with a way to screen for everything. In the cycling example, let's not prevent head injuries in the activity that causes the largest % of accidents until we can prevent head injuries in all activities that could potentially cause accidents. Let's do nothing until we can do everything and since we will never be able to do everything, we will always do nothing. We can't prevent every cause of head injuries so let's prevent none.

3. In the heart disease vs. diabetes analogy heart disease is equated with cycling related head injuries. You're arguing that we should stop doing something that can prevent 80+% of heart disease.

Obviously a greater focus is put on those activities that carry a greater risk. So helmet use is much more likely to save lives in a cycling environment rather than walking down the street.


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## gumbafish (Jan 11, 2011)

runabike- The difference between all of those activities (save running) and bicycling is that you are in traffic and can be hit by a car. I think sharing the road with objects weighing thousands of pounds moving at fast speeds is a little different than falling off of a merry-.go-round.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

Camilo said:


> This post should be archived - thanks for explaining the point of view I share.


The only thing that is truly different is that in biking your hands are doing something. They are in control of your vehicle. You never have enough time to brace for your fall. Basketball, you RARELY see head injuries. In fact, head injuries are more common because of elbows (which is why they are illegal) than from the floor. 

Why does baseball and football MAKE you wear a helmet? Oh yea, because it prevents head injuries. Heck, I know in some towns they have talked about banning heading for soccer at least until an age that they can use proper technique to mitigate the risk of head injuries for that.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Ride fast and take chances.

That's what I always say.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> There are three ways to look at what you just said...
> 
> 
> Obviously a greater focus is put on those activities that carry a greater risk. So helmet use is much more likely to save lives in a cycling environment rather than walking down the street.


1. You apparently don't see what I'm doing as you've failed to make a coherent rebuttal addressing what I posted.

2. I never said "why screen for heart disease". I essentially said the opposite. You basically said we're not idiots for not wearing helmets in certain activities because cycling causes more head injuries. I said your quip was akin to not worrying about diabetes because it didn't kill as many as heart disease. 

3. I was really stretching my mental faculties to understand how you came up with such an assertion, but then I gave up because it was so irrelevant to begin with.

You keep harping on "walking down the street" as if you're actually refuting something while brazenly ignoring the salient parts of my posts.

It seems a tad...disingenuous.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

gumbafish said:


> runabike- The difference between all of those activities (save running) and bicycling is that you are in traffic and can be hit by a car. I think sharing the road with objects weighing thousands of pounds moving at fast speeds is a little different than falling off of a merry-.go-round.


IF you're riding on the road in traffic, yes. 

But many people, especially kids, are riding on sidewalks or trails or paths or around neighborhoods with a limited flow of traffic.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

runabike said:


> 2. I never said "why screen for heart disease".


Try to think. You're equating lessening head trauma from cycling by wearing helmets with screening for heart disease. If you don't get that then don't make analogies that you don't understand. And you're questioning the need to wear helmets. So indeed you are saying why screen for heart disease.



runabike said:


> You basically said we're not idiots for not wearing helmets in certain activities because cycling causes more head injuries.


Now you're just projecting. Nowhere have I called anyone an idiot or any other derogatory term. 



runabike said:


> 3. I was really stretching my mental faculties to understand how you came up with such an assertion, but then I gave up because it was so irrelevant to begin with.


Again, you're equating lessening head trauma from cycling by wearing helmets with screening for heart disease. If you don't get that then don't make analogies that you don't understand. I can't help it if you don't have the mental faculties for this discussion.



runabike said:


> You keep harping on "walking down the street" as if you're actually refuting something while brazenly ignoring the salient parts of my posts.


I ignored nothing. As I pointed out earlier, you referred to the need to wear a helmet walking down the street twice. It's funny that you did that and are now trying to back away from it. Regardless, my point was that obviously a greater focus is put on those activities that carry a greater risk. In this case head trauma from cycling tops the list. So it makes sense that a greater focus is put on that activity than those that carry less risk. You even agreed with that point yourself. Earlier you said that you wear a helmet when you train on your bike but not when you ride around town. So clearly you've assessed a greater risk to cycling with speed in traffic and have chosen to lessen that risk by wearing a helmet. I swear you're only arguing the point because someone called you a name.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

runabike said:


> IF you're riding on the road in traffic, yes.
> 
> But many people, especially kids, are riding on sidewalks or trails or paths or around neighborhoods with a limited flow of traffic.


Tell that to the 40,272 cycling related head injury cases in 2009 from 14 year old & younger kids.


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## gumbafish (Jan 11, 2011)

Also more than half the states have mandatory helmet laws for children ~14yrs and younger so most points regarding them wearing helmets are moot. I believe those laws are based off of the time it takes for the skull to fully harden and retain shape (not medical terms, I forget the correct words to use because I believe there are still further changes that continue into adulthood).


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Try to think. You're equating lessening head trauma from cycling by wearing helmets with screening for heart disease. If you don't get that then don't make analogies that you don't understand. And you're questioning the need to wear helmets. So indeed you are saying why screen for heart disease.
> 
> 
> Now you're just projecting. Nowhere have I called anyone an idiot or any other derogatory term.
> ...



I've given you the benefit of the doubt until now, but at this point it seems like you're just being blatantly dishonest in your posts because you simply can't respond to what I've actually written. 

Again, I'll spell this out point blank for you so you can't make up something and then claim that that's what I wrote. I'm telling you straight up exactly what I wrote and meant: 

YOU = other activities don't require a helmet because they're less dangerous than cycling. ME = that's like saying other diseases don't require screening because they're not as dangerous as heart disease.

Do you now understand that? It can be taken no other way. Attempting to twist what I've now explained for the second time is simply being dishonest. 

I've responded to your reply to my post concerning people being called idiots. Your response "Maybe because cycling tops the list of sports related injuries..." is in response to that statement thus implying a degree of acceptance, whether intentional or not. It's a moot point, regardless.

You have ignored those points and continue to do so. Address running, track and field, gymnastics, playgrounds, etc. Why continue regurgitating the walking bit? Disingenuous is being generous at this point. 

I'm simply pointing out the brazen double standard parroted by a number of people on this thread. A point neither you nor anyone else can actually refute. And yes, a few posters denigrating anyone and everyone disagreeing with them has led to my posts concerning that double standard.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Tell that to the 40,272 cycling related head injury cases in 2009 from 14 year old & younger kids.



Hey, look, a reply that has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. It seems like you will go to great lengths to take anything written, change it around in your head until it says what you want it to say, and then reply. 

Do me a favor and read the post that my reply was written for and stop being so blatantly fallacious.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

gumbafish said:


> Also more than half the states have mandatory helmet laws for children ~14yrs and younger so most points regarding them wearing helmets are moot. I believe those laws are based off of the time it takes for the skull to fully harden and retain shape (not medical terms, I forget the correct words to use because I believe there are still further changes that continue into adulthood).


Which points, exactly? I haven't made any points about children not wearing helmets. I haven't suggested anything remotely similar to an idea that children should not wear helmets on a bike. 

Actually, I've only questioned why a lack of helmet use in other activities doesn't call for denigration of anyone that doesn't mind said lack of helmets.

I fear the actual salient points of the discussion are being eclipsed by people getting worked up and emotional about protecting our dear children's heads at all costs (well, at least when they're on a bike!).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Hey all...

This here discussion has been going on for better than ten months now, and I just gotta ask,

Anybody change their mind yet?


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## BianchiMike (May 14, 2012)

Why do so many people worry about what other people do? If it doesn't encroach on your life what does it really matter? How is your life affected by somebody else not conforming to your mentality. If somebody doesn't want to wear a helmet it's their right to do so, I believe they're well aware of the risks involved. I'm pretty sure if you get hit by a car going fast enough that helmet is not going to make bit of difference. People should just stop worrying about what others are doing and just live your own life.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

BianchiMike said:


> Why do so many people worry about what other people do? If it doesn't encroach on your life what does it really matter? How is your life affected by somebody else not conforming to your mentality. If somebody doesn't want to wear a helmet it's their right to do so, I believe they're well aware of the risks involved. I'm pretty sure if you get hit by a car going fast enough that helmet is not going to make bit of difference. People should just stop worrying about what others are doing and just live your own life.


Im pretty sure that was the argument when they made wearing your seatbelt a law.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

runabike said:


> Actually, I've only questioned why a lack of helmet use in other activities doesn't call for denigration of anyone that doesn't mind said lack of helmets.


And I asked how touch football is the same as contact. Also gave a pretty good example of why basketball is a bad example of head injuries because few if any are caused by falls.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

bballr4567 said:


> And I asked how touch football is the same as contact. Also gave a pretty good example of why basketball is a bad example of head injuries because few if any are caused by falls.


Your question has nothing to do with anything. 

Why are you even responding to my reply to someone else if you don't have a pertinent statement to make?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

velodog said:


> Hey all...
> 
> This here discussion has been going on for better than ten months now, and I just gotta ask,
> 
> Anybody change their mind yet?


Internet debates aren't about changing minds, they're about winning, right?


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

runabike said:


> YOU = other activities don't require a helmet because they're less dangerous than cycling. ME = that's like saying other diseases don't require screening because they're not as dangerous as heart disease.


Actually all I've said is that in my opinion children should wear a helmet when cycling and that I wear a helmet. I personally don't care whether you wear a helmet when running or playing basketball. If you feel at risk then wear one. This is a cycling forum so that's where my focus lies. The fact that cycling tops the list for children & adults when it comes to sports related head injuries is support for my claim that there is a risk of head injury from cycling. 

The rest of the garbage on this thread is your inability to come to grips with that simple concept... helmet use in sports that cause the most head injuries makes sense. People typically resort to analogies because they can't debate the actual topic as it stands. Your role is simply an argumentative one because you're butthurt that someone called you a name.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

runabike said:


> That's like saying we shouldn't screen for diabetes because while it may kill 70000 people a year, heart disease kills 8x that.


You didn't like my previous reply. 

No, it's not "like" anything. I am saying that cycling produces the most sports related head injuries so common sense says let's slap a helmet on when we're cycling and try to reduce that number.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Actually all I've said is that in my opinion children should wear a helmet when cycling and that I wear a helmet. I personally don't care whether you wear a helmet when running or playing basketball. If you feel at risk then wear one. This is a cycling forum so that's where my focus lies. The fact that cycling tops the list for children & adults when it comes to sports related head injuries is support for my claim that there is a risk of head injury from cycling.
> 
> The rest of the garbage on this thread is your inability to come to grips with that simple concept... helmet use in sports that cause the most head injuries makes sense. People typically resort to analogies because they can't debate the actual topic as it stands. Your role is simply an argumentative one because you're butthurt that someone called you a name.


No, Dave, you've said quite a bit more than that and replied to a good number of posts with responses that are seemingly out of left field.

The rest of this "garbage" is simply an illustration of the double standard employed by many.

A double standard that you seem quite adamant about ignoring despite it's glaring obviousness.

Analogies are used to help people better relate to material that they don't seem to properly understand. A few of your posts indicate a lack of understanding so analogies could be helpful. Unfortunately, it seems that you have trouble with analogies, too, and used said analogies for irrelevant tangents. 

Indeed, it is a simple concept, but it seems it's one you've missed. Now you're employing a strawman validating helmet use in cycling when that's not the issue in the least, nor is there any argument about potential head risk from crashing a bike. Just one more Dave fallacy for the road I guess.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> You didn't like my previous reply.
> 
> No, it's not "like" anything. I am saying that cycling produces the most sports related head injuries so common sense says let's slap a helmet on when we're cycling and try to reduce that number.


You're right, I didn't like your reply because it was ignorant and my following analogy perfectly illustrated that. 

At least you finally seem to understand said analogy (took a few reads, huh?) and are merely attempting to half-heartedly negate it instead of randomly asserting something completely unrelated. 

Unfortunately, you still fail to grasp precisely what you said and how it relates to what's been written so I'll copy and paste so you can hopefully get the full picture (finally). 


Runabike: "So if all of these activities involve an element of speed and height that equal or exceed that which is found in riding a bike, why are all the participants of these activities NOT idiots or senseless for not wearing a helmet, but all those that are toodling around town on a bike ARE?

DaveWC: "Maybe because cycling tops the list of sports related injuries..."

Runabike: "That's like saying we shouldn't screen for diabetes because while it may kill 70000 people a year, heart disease kills 8x that."

So yes, it's precisely "like" not worrying about other high-risk activities (or diseases) simply because they're not AS high-risk. 

So to be perfectly clear, are you actually promoting such unconcern (surely not!) or is it simply a matter of not figuring out a cogent rebuttal so you're left to deflect with silliness like the above?


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Relax bud. Do you wear a helmet? For all cycling? Or do you assess the risk of the activity and wear one when you feel the risk warrants it?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Relax bud. Do you wear a helmet? For all cycling? Or do you assess the risk of the activity and wear one when you feel the risk warrants it?


Well Dave, regurgitating questions that have already been discussed is just silly. Obviously there's nothing left for you to say about the matter, so there's not much more for me to say either. So at the heightened risk of regressing into some sort of irritating poster I have no wish to be, I'll just leave it be. Have a good one.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I just bought a new Giro Aeon.

already own a Giro Pneumo.

so, now I'm twice as safe as previously.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

In my opinion children should wear a helmet when cycling. I wear a helmet for my safety when training due to the speeds of cars & myself & when not training to set a good example for my child. I personally don't care whether others wear a helmet. If you feel at risk then wear one. Most people assess the relative risk of the style of cycling they're doing and the environment they're in and wear a helmet if they feel the risk warrants it. Seems like common sense to me, I don't see why there is a need to argue this idea.



runabike said:


> I wear a helmet when I do training rides, but never wear one when riding around town.


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## Sisophous (Jun 7, 2010)

Cycling without a helmet is a lot more fun. I only remove my helmet in parks or where there are few or no vehicles. I would never ride at speed without a helmet. A head injury is pretty gruesome if they have to open your skull. And, you often never heal from a head injury.

People riding with vehicles on the roads at speed are not too bright.


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