# SL3 repeated horrendous crank noises



## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

I know this topic has been brought up ad nauseum, but I figured this might be a little more serious than the normal creaking. 

I've been having intermittant issues with my SL3 S-works OSBB making noise. Since I bought the bike in January, it's been making clicking sound once every rotation of the crank. It didn't seem to coordinate with the stregth I put into the pedals, just every time the crank went around once, it would click in about the same spot. I've heard this was an issue with the Tarmac, so I took it to the shop. He cleaned out the BB, put some press fit loctite on the plastic cups as specified by Spesh and it mostly went away. Sometimes I'd hear it when I started riding, but it would eventually go away. 

Back in May, I had a crash where I got left hooked and went over the bars. I'm not sure exactly what happened to the bike after I came off it, but I'm sure it took a tumble or two. The front of the bike is what mainly contacted the car, kind of a broadside that knocked the front wheel slightly out of true and bent the front brake arm just a tad. A few scratches on the hoods and bars, but that's the extent of the damage. Had it checked out by two shops, specifying to check out the BB, and they said it was fine. 

Fast forward to now. I've been back on the bike for at least a month, mabe a bit more. A few weeks ago, I started getting some creaking in the BB that eventually got worse. No noise when I spun lightly, but putting any power down would make the BB creak. And now it was with every push of my legs, so twice per rotation. Every other sort of force I could manage, such as putting all my weight on a single pedal at the bottom of the rotation (either side) would not replicate the noise. It was only when pedalling and when putting power down. It got really loud over the course of one ride so I took it in to the shop again. This time, they changed out the bearings (ceramic apparently) and buttoned it all back up. I did one 30 mile ride with no issues, then the next 45 mile ride, the noise came back to about the same volume. It's to the point where I can feel the noise in my feet as I pedal. Gotta take it back in this week, don't want to ride and screw stuff up even more.

What do you guys think should be done about this? It's pissing me off taking the bike in for service every week and killing my riding time. It usually takes longer than they estimate and I never give them crap for it, but it's getting old. The mechanic really seems like he knows what he's doing and said there is a new way that Spesh has told them recently to fix the issue. Honestly though its getting to the point where I want to get a new bike to get rid of the problem, and this is no cheap frame. I don't think the crash had anything to do with the noise, but I know that could be used against me. I've also inspected the frame around the BB for cracks and found nothing. 

Any advice here? 


Cliff Notes:

-SL3 S-works OSBB (w/Sworks crank) made clicking noises, went away, now making loud creaking
-BB taken apart and reassembled at least 3 times in 7 months (just passed 1k miles on the bike)
-crashed once during ownership, bike checked and cleared for damage by two shops
-noise is back two rides after new bearings are installed


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Do you have a wave washer or the newer spacer with three little bolts taking up the side t oside play in the BB? If its the wave washer, I have found that you must add 1 to 3 spacers between the crank and wave washer. The wave washer alone does NOT take up enough space in the assembly. 

To test this, push the non-drive side crankarm at the BB with both thumbs. If you get movement, that is likely your issue.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

I honestly have no idea what's in there. The mechanic told me he'd take it apart and show me how it's put together, but I haven't had time to stick around when he does it. Are the three bolts internal or external, like can I see them when it's all put together? I'll test the crank when I get home today.

He told me last time specialized has sent new instructions to almost glue in the adapter cups so they stay put. He said the pro teams will epoxy in the cups to keep them from making noise. The whole design seems fishy to me.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

dcorn said:


> I honestly have no idea what's in there. The mechanic told me he'd take it apart and show me how it's put together, but I haven't had time to stick around when he does it. Are the three bolts internal or external, like can I see them when it's all put together? I'll test the crank when I get home today.
> 
> He told me last time specialized has sent new instructions to almost glue in the adapter cups so they stay put. He said the pro teams will epoxy in the cups to keep them from making noise. The whole design seems fishy to me.


actually, the whole design looks really good to me. it is quite easy to take apart and put back together.

the crankset is also quite well thought out - i believe it is licensed from lightening

chaning the spyder requires a special tool - or you have to make one 

you could have some wear on the crankset itself, if it doesn't fit tight inside the bearing, it will rock back and forth and you can do all you want with the cups, and you will still get creaking noises - happened to me on a sram red crankset

the problem with the BB30 and the red crankset is that it can push out the non drive side bearing on install if you aren't careful

also, the crank should be greased on the mounting surface with the bearing

the spec crankset has the joint in the middle so both sides push in

you could have the delrin cups replaced, they aren't very expensive

you should check the pedals as well as the bolts holding the chain rings

sometimes it is simply your quick release, especially those really light weight ones, a little grease can help that


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## wetpaint (Oct 12, 2008)

I've been having the same problem with my SL3, Currently waiting on new BB cups to see if that will work, I swapped everything, and the clicking keeps coming back. Mainly riding my SL2 nowdays since I can't stand riding with clicking every crank rotation.


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## vaetuning (Oct 1, 2009)

*Creaking of OSBB*

Hi all

The problem of creaking is commonly known to many people riding Specialized frames with a carbon OSBB.

There's some new solutions being tested by Specialized themselves!! (Specialized Europe)

The solutions (depending on crankset type used) can be bought directly by the inventor of the product!!

Go to this homepage: Home|C-BEAR.COM Fiets Keramische Lagers voor Bottom Brackets en Wielen

Click on the OSBB on the left on their home page, and on the right you'll see the different solution links, depending on the crankset you use!! click on the one needed and you'll see the cups or adapter to be used.

I'm NOT trying to promote nor sell anything - I've just had some issues of my own with the carbon OSBB, and the people at C-Bear really made a difference and have helped me a lot!!

You need to address this issue very fast, as the frame can get ruined due to rotating of the delrin rings - I know of at least one frame that needed to be replaced, as to much material was grinded away in the OSBB due to the aforementioned rotating delrin rings!!

With respect

MPJ


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

I head a similar issue, and it was my left pedal coming loose. 

Sounds are really hard to pinpoint on a carbon bike...


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Cyclin Dan said:


> I head a similar issue, and it was my left pedal coming loose.
> 
> Sounds are really hard to pinpoint on a carbon bike...


I've thought about that and I've done everything to figure out where it's coming from. I thought it might be the pedal bearings, but both of them going bad at the same time after not even 2 years on a bike? It happens standing or sitting and only when I'm rotating the cranks under some power. Just putting all my weight on one pedal or the other and bouncing up and down does nothing. Pedaling lightly does nothing. Standing and mashing up a hill makes terrible creaking that I can feel in my feet.

The fact that the noise goes away for a while every time the BB is rebuilt means it's probably the BB. 

Thanks for your suggestions guys. I think this time, the mechanic is going to use something a little stronger than press fit loctite to hold the delrin cups in. Hopefully they get replaced as well because they must be wearing out every time they get pressed in, move around, and get pressed out. I'd tell him to just epoxy them in, but if there happens to be something else wrong, I don't want to get screwed out of a warranty or another fix.

That C-bear bottom bracket setup does look really nice, but wow that's not cheap. It does seem to be a good idea with aluminum cups instead of delrin.


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## vaetuning (Oct 1, 2009)

*Stiffer BB*



dcorn said:


> That C-bear bottom bracket setup does look really nice, but wow that's not cheap. It does seem to be a good idea with aluminum cups instead of delrin.


Hi dcorn

Not only is it a good idea with the aluminum cups instead of delrin - it is actually going to be used, from the nearby future, on Spesh frames...!!!

Only problem is, that Specialized has not yet started doing so...!!

Leaving most mechanics unaware that there´s a new solution on its way!!

You should really consider giving it a try - the BB area will get so much stiffer - there really is NO comparison - you'll be surprised!!

With respect

MPJ


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## willstylez (Sep 15, 2011)

Same issue with my 2011 S-Works SL3 & Ultegra cranks. Seems to click when the non-drive side crank arm is at 10 o'clock (if looking at non-drive side of bike). I have been taking the bike back for a rebuild every month and a half or so. The click usually ceases to exist for about 2-3 weeks after the rebuild. It is the shittiest sounding, sexiest bike around, haha.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

will, that's exactly what mine was doing initially with the crank in the same position.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

vaetuning said:


> Hi dcorn
> 
> Not only is it a good idea with the aluminum cups instead of delrin - it is actually going to be used, from the nearby future, on Spesh frames...!!!
> 
> ...


OP,
If I owned a Sworks aka carbon shell OSBB bike, I would go with a C-bear sleeve. Even though Mads and I may disagree on optimal press interference of that sleeve, without question the sleeve is the way to go. The delrin bushings take a compression set over time and SUCK. Shame on Specialized for continuing this design on their flagship bike. I deliberately purchased my Roubaix Pro...one step down from the Sworks...because it had a threaded BB...in effect, an 'integrated sleeve'. 
As a side note, the proliferation of a through bore carbon BB that requires a sleeve to effectively regress it back to a conventional threaded BB shell aka my Roubaix Pro frame that has been perfect, it a disgrace and denigrates their flagship bike. Rant over and good luck with resolving your issue.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Im not seeing how that solution will solve the issue. I would be really hesitant to start putting metal sleeves into a carbon frame. If the Delrin ones are moving around on you, how would the metal ones not? 

Ive had the same issue you all have had and the solution was shimming up the crank. The wave washer alone allows for too much side to side play.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

roadworthy said:


> OP,
> As a side note, the proliferation of a through bore carbon BB that requires a sleeve to effectively regress it back to a conventional threaded BB shell aka my Roubaix Pro frame that has been perfect, it a disgrace and denigrates their flagship bike.


Exactly, if you have to insert a metal sleeve to make the carbon OSBB work, then the carbon OSBB concept is dead.


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## tonytourist (Jan 21, 2009)

My crankset is making a similar clicking, except I think mine is coming from the spider lockring. I'm going to get that checked, and if that doesn't solve the problem I think new cups and bearings (relatively cheap) installed using Specialized's new instructions, plus another S Works crank I have just sitting here, better fix it.. because it is annoying!!!


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

I don't think the carbon BB shell is a bad idea at all, I just think it's stupid to use plastic bearing holders inside other 'plastic' surfaces. Especially when the delrin cups are only inserted into the frame half an inch or so. I don't have internal cables, so why wouldn't the cups go into the BB shell an inch or more. I'd think all that extra surface area would prevent excess play. 

The bike is back at the shop and I'm hoping he'll replace the cups this time. He's going to try the new 'nearly-epoxy' loctite that specialized now recommends and hopefully that will solve the issue. If it's a problem after that, I'm going to start asking about a warranty or something. C-bear seems like a good option, but I'm sure it would nix the warranty on the frame. Ya know, I'd be ok with the repair having to be done every 3-4 months or so, but taking my bike into the shop every other ride is ridiculous. With the release of the 2013 frames, I'm considering stepping over to the Venge, but who's to say I don't have the same problem?


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

tonytourist said:


> My crankset is making a similar clicking, except I think mine is coming from the spider lockring. I'm going to get that checked, and if that doesn't solve the problem I think new cups and bearings (relatively cheap) installed using Specialized's new instructions, plus another S Works crank I have just sitting here, better fix it.. because it is annoying!!!


Tony,
Do you have a link to Specialized "new instructions"?
Thanks


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Well, it looks like the solution is out and its from Ceramic Speed, not the other company mentioned above. 

Going to the Specialized website, updated last night, the S-Works OSBB frames now list "Ceramic Speed Integrated OSBB." I wonder if this is just bearings or are they making a new type of BB, similar to PF30?


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## tonytourist (Jan 21, 2009)

roadworthy said:


> Tony,
> Do you have a link to Specialized "new instructions"?
> Thanks


http://service.specialized.com/collateral/ownersguide/new/assets/pdf/IG0414_revB.pdf
It's the newest manual I've seen, but I haven't checked since April when I had another installed on my other bike.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Just looked up Ceramic Speed's press fit bottom brackets. Over $300! They don't even make an OSBB for retail sale, maybe they are just making them for specialized. Would be nice if specialized started giving those out to people with previous year carbon BB's to replace the stupid noisy delrin parts.

As of that paper, looks like the new instructions actually do involve 2 part epoxy for the BB bearing cups. I'd like to see how tough those are to remove by lightly tapping with a punch from the backside of the cup after they are epoxied in. Hopefully my mechanic uses new cups, because I think he was talking about doing this method.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

dcorn said:


> Just looked up Ceramic Speed's press fit bottom brackets. Over $300! They don't even make an OSBB for retail sale, maybe they are just making them for specialized. Would be nice if specialized started giving those out to people with previous year carbon BB's to replace the stupid noisy delrin parts.
> 
> As of that paper, looks like the new instructions actually do involve 2 part epoxy for the BB bearing cups. I'd like to see how tough those are to remove by lightly tapping with a punch from the backside of the cup after they are epoxied in. Hopefully my mechanic uses new cups, because I think he was talking about doing this method.


If my prize Sworks frame, I would think long and hard about your next step. I would do a lot of research on that 2 part epoxy and contact Specialized to discuss removal because if you stick with delrin bushings, you WILL remove the bushings...likely again and again. For me and again, Specialized maybe evolving their version of PF30 as you have explained, but if you want a solid solution, the C-bear sleeve is it as Mads has explained. Delrin bushings whether epoxied in or not will continue to fail.
Before you epoxy anything, consider at least waiting to see if Specialized for 2013 has changed the bearings as discussed to an integrated bearing/cup assembly...and hopefully the bearing cup is aluminum. I will say, I doubt the integrated bearings will have an AL cup however. This is because installation and removal for service will take its toll on a carbon shell which isn't a good practice for service. This comes fully circle back to C-bear which protects the virgin carbon shell and does a lot better job retaining bearings.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

So what exactly is the C-bear shell? Their site sucks and I couldn't get a great idea from the install pics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to be two aluminum bearing cups connected by a tube. One is pressed into the carbon from one side, and the other side threads into the tube that joins them? The press fit and threading keeps the cups in the shell and further prevents them from moving, and it's basically a semi permanent fixture? Seems like a great idea to me. But can you provide me with a reputible link that I can purchase one from that fits the carbon OSBB?


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

dcorn said:


> So what exactly is the C-bear shell? Their site sucks and I couldn't get a great idea from the install pics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to be two aluminum bearing cups connected by a tube. One is pressed into the carbon from one side, and the other side threads into the tube that joins them? The press fit and threading keeps the cups in the shell and further prevents them from moving, and it's basically a semi permanent fixture? Seems like a great idea to me. But can you provide me with a reputible link that I can purchase one from that fits the carbon OSBB?


Where have you been hiding?  The C-bear sleeve has had dedicated threads about it. Vaetuning aka Mads has written about it in length and I believe introduced it to the forum. It is generally perceived as the best solution to Specialized delrin bushing debacle. One caveat however...the press of the sleeve is pretty high and this has been discussed in length as well. Do a search or somebody will post a link.
Good luck. Only reason to be weary about the C-bear sleeve is warranty voidance IMHO and this could be worked around if you are a clever man.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

roadworthy said:


> Only reason to be weary about the C-bear sleeve is warranty voidance IMHO and this could be worked around if you are a clever man.


Assuming you can remove it without destroying or excessively marring your carbon shell frame!

This sounds very much like the pre-delrin solutions that were used to convert Cannondale BB30 frames back into threaded BB compatible frames. These were considered a semi-permanent install and removal was a delicate task performed by "experts" with no 100% guarantee of success.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

RkFast said:


> Im not seeing how that solution will solve the issue. I would be really hesitant to start putting metal sleeves into a carbon frame. If the Delrin ones are moving around on you, how would the metal ones not?
> 
> Ive had the same issue you all have had and the solution was shimming up the crank. The wave washer alone allows for too much side to side play.


i agree, a metal press fit part could certainly have the same problem and if it started turning in the carbon frame, i would worry

i like delrin, and use it a lot to have things made - i mean a lot of delrin and a lot of things

it is relatively strong and stable material

it is really nothing to take out the old sleeves and put in new ones - my bike shop even gave me some for free

it turned out the problem was the crank

i've had more issues creaking with tried and true threaded inserts in other bikes - including freezing up enough where you had to put the bottom bracket into a vice and turn the bike

i take the bottom bracket apart one or twice a year and relube everything with teflon grease and put it back together

it is very easy to do

i change the bottom bracket bearing every year - going on 12K miles, so far so good

just my contrarian opinion


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

purdyd said:


> it turned out the problem was the crank


I would hope the mechanic would take a look into this, but he may not because Spesh has had so many BB problems. Honestly, it could be slightly bent or messed up from my crash, but the shops that looked at the bike post-crash said it was all fine. I'll bring this up next time. Don't really want to buy a new crank, but if thats the solution, then I guess I have no choice.


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## vaetuning (Oct 1, 2009)

*Warranty / C-Bear Sleeve*



roadworthy said:


> Where have you been hiding?  The C-bear sleeve has had dedicated threads about it. Vaetuning aka Mads has written about it in length and I believe introduced it to the forum. It is generally perceived as the best solution to Specialized delrin bushing debacle. One caveat however...the press of the sleeve is pretty high and this has been discussed in length as well. Do a search or somebody will post a link.
> Good luck. Only reason to be weary about the C-bear sleeve is warranty voidance IMHO and this could be worked around if you are a clever man.


Hi Roadworthy

There should be NO issues with warranty any longer, as Specialized are using those sleeves themselves now!!
Furthermore the press fit is NOT that big - you should maybe try installing one yourself, in an carbon OSBB frame, and find out?? - just a suggestion!!

Maybe I'll make a video showing how to install the sleeve, and how easy it actually goes in - but where should I place that video?? can one download them here or....??

Concerning the aforementioned sleeve - look in this thread everyone:

"SL4 Pro frame OSBB and campy ultra torque crank"

With respect

Mads


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

dcorn said:


> I would hope the mechanic would take a look into this, but he may not because Spesh has had so many BB problems. Honestly, it could be slightly bent or messed up from my crash, but the shops that looked at the bike post-crash said it was all fine. I'll bring this up next time. Don't really want to buy a new crank, but if thats the solution, then I guess I have no choice.


creaks can be really hard to track down

i have this cable end on my brake cable that will rub and you would swear it was the steering tube - a dab of grease twice a year and no more creak

those quick releases can produce creaks that you would swear are from the crank as they react to your pedal stroke

i had a rim that was cracked

for the crank, it had worn so there was some slop against the bearing

every time i would take the bb apart, everything would be fine for a little while

i presume because i would grease up the crank shaft per installation instructions

i would try all of the cheap things first before getting a new crank - i wonder if they can 'loan' you one? new cups? I think you mentioned already getting new bearings

pedals? chain ring bolts?

i've seen the cable from the front deraileur sticking out on more than a couple of bikes and hitting the crank causing a clicking noise


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

vaetuning said:


> Maybe I'll make a video showing how to install the sleeve, and how easy it actually goes in - but where should I place that video?? can one download them here or....??


That would be very helpful. You can upload the video to YouTube, and then post a message here containing the link. You can even even cut-and-paste some tags from YouTube which will in-line the video right into your RBR post, but a simple http link is good enough.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Again, is there a US retailer for the C-bear sleeve anywhere?


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## vaetuning (Oct 1, 2009)

*C-Bear*



dcorn said:


> Again, is there a US retailer for the C-bear sleeve anywhere?


Hi dcorn

Send Bart from C-Bear a mail - he'll help you out in a flash, and he's actually a very nice guy on top of that!!

With respect

Mads


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Mads,
Do you place the C-bear sleeve in the freezer for a length of time prior to pressing it in place? One poster mentioned this worked nicely for him with the C-bear sleeve and wondered if you used this practice as well.
Thanks.


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## vaetuning (Oct 1, 2009)

*Install of sleeve*



roadworthy said:


> Mads,
> Do you place the C-bear sleeve in the freezer for a length of time prior to pressing it in place? One poster mentioned this worked nicely for him with the C-bear sleeve and wondered if you used this practice as well.
> Thanks.


Hi Roadworthy

No, up until now, it has not been necessary for me to do anything, but use the method I described earlier on - I actually put one in, in a Venge S-Works the other day, and that one was a breeze also - made me wonder what all the fuzz was about!?

Granted: Sadly there's some differences in the OSBB carbon tube - sometimes they are not totally spherical and other times they are a little bigger / smaller when you measure them previous to installing the C-Bear sleeve!!

Fact: I have yet to encounter one installation of the above mentioned sleeve, using my method, where I felt uncomfortable or nervous during the install - off all the bikes, where I have installed the sleeve, I have yet to hear a complaint - nothing but happy people out there, using the sleeve!!

Promise: When I feel up to it, and have a given installation of the C-Bear sleeve, I'll make a video, showing how it is done, and hopefully put the confusion and nervousness to rest!!

Until then: Go ahead everyone, order the sleeve, and ride on happy and content - it really does cure the problems with the OSBB!!

With respect

Mads


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Got my bike back last night. The mech said there was a bolt loose somewhere in the bottom bracket... Not sure if he was implying it was his fault or it just randomly came loose. Said he pulled apart and regreased up the BB anyway, put some loctite on whatever bolt was loose, and buttoned it up. He's 'confident' this time it'll last longer without any noise. Either way, the TNR tonight should be a good test with a bunch of sprinting and short, steep climbs. 

I brought up the c-bear and while he was familiar with similar solutions in other BB's, he had not heard of this one (nor had he heard of the new ceramicspeed BB's in the 2013 models). He told me to email him with details and he'd check it out as a viable option for fixing the creaking in the future. Maybe they'll become a dealer and start making a lot of specialized owners very happy haha.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

vaetuning said:


> Hi Roadworthy
> 
> No, up until now, it has not been necessary for me to do anything, but use the method I described earlier on - I actually put one in, in a Venge S-Works the other day, and that one was a breeze also - made me wonder what all the fuzz was about!?
> 
> ...


Hi Mads,
Sounds as though there is some variation in 46.0mm ID hole size from one bike to the next...and perhaps even more in what is called cylindricity...lack of cylinder being a function of lack of same hole axis side to side...in other words the hole through the BB isn't precisely uniform from one bike to the next. Two members of the forum have reported very high installation push in forces. It just seems to me to make sense to freeze the sleeves over night prior to installation but doesn't sound as though this is necessary in your experience and you have the most experience with these sleeves.

I hope you put that video together and thanks for introducing the forum to the best solution for carbon OSBB Sworks bikes. I am still pretty incredulous that Specialized has stuck with the uniform 46mm thru bore BB for 2013.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Did a fast 15 mile ride last night, crank is still making noise. Not nearly as loud as before, but still creaks when I push down with my left foot. It's gotta be something other than the BB itself to constantly have this problem, unless he keeps using the same delrin cups and then I'm guessing the problem will never go away. He said he basically used a gasket maker material this time that is semi-permanent. 

Thinking about taking it into another LBS and just get them to diagnose the problem, but they said it's like $75/hr and they are backed up for over a week. 

I just want to ride my damn expensive-ass bike without it making noises and without spending a bunch of extra money on more parts to fix it. Anyone think this is warranty-able at this point?


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

dcorn said:


> Did a fast 15 mile ride last night, crank is still making noise. Not nearly as loud as before, but still creaks when I push down with my left foot. It's gotta be something other than the BB itself to constantly have this problem, unless he keeps using the same delrin cups and then I'm guessing the problem will never go away. He said he basically used a gasket maker material this time that is semi-permanent.
> 
> Thinking about taking it into another LBS and just get them to diagnose the problem, but they said it's like $75/hr and they are backed up for over a week.
> 
> I just want to ride my damn expensive-ass bike without it making noises and without spending a bunch of extra money on more parts to fix it. Anyone think this is warranty-able at this point?


now you are understanding why some people work on their own bikes

why don't you ask them to change out the delrin cups? that is fairly minor and inexpensive change


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

dcorn said:


> Did a fast 15 mile ride last night, crank is still making noise. Not nearly as loud as before, but still creaks when I push down with my left foot. It's gotta be something other than the BB itself to constantly have this problem, unless he keeps using the same delrin cups and then I'm guessing the problem will never go away. He said he basically used a gasket maker material this time that is semi-permanent.
> 
> Thinking about taking it into another LBS and just get them to diagnose the problem, but they said it's like $75/hr and they are backed up for over a week.
> 
> I just want to ride my damn expensive-ass bike without it making noises and without spending a bunch of extra money on more parts to fix it. *Anyone think this is warranty-able at this point?*


IIRC your bike was involved in a crash and was subsequently checked out by your LBS. I'd be curious just how they checked it out, because while I'm by no means an expert on the topic, from what I've read, fairly sophisticated methods are required to reliably locate defects in CF bikes (ultrasound, embedded optical fiber or thermal imaging). 

Point being, if your frame suffered internal damage at or near the BB shell, no amount of wrenching will likely remedy your BB problems.

Some info on the topic:
Thermal imaging cameras help detect material failures in bikes

Method for detecting cracks in carbon fiber bicycle frame using embedded optical fiber - Huang, An-bin


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Will provide my interpretation having digested all the Sworks BB issues reported on the forum and believe it is essentially the same conclusion Mads has drawn now having worked on a lot of Sworks bikes and sharing his experience here.

First...if you can, learn to work on your own bike. I am evolved to know this just may not be possible however. Some guys aren't mechanical. I am the extreme opposite and so I get it about others as I have many friends like this with other talents...I can't cook or paint a picture either...or compose music. Each of us have different talents. Unfortunately there are more than a few bike shops without excellent technical support. Speaking of which, most know somebody who is an engineer or similar. Use the barter system to exchange favors. If a friend of mine I ride with develops a crank issue, I generally will fix his bike. You need to seek out a guy like that.

Second....the Sworks bikes are among the best in the world. Their BB however is among the worst...or demands the most in terms of maintenance and set up. Delrin has no place in BB's and shame on Specialized for this design. If sticking with the frame which is one of the best out there, pull the crank out and replace the delrin sleeves with C-bear as Mads has brought to our attention. You in effect now convert your BB to an english threaded BB. Sell your Sworks cranks on ebay as they will no longer work with a C-bear sleeve. They will bring good money. Sworks cranks also tend to be a bit dodgy FWIW. They have a threaded separate spider design I think sucks from a design standpoint and some strong guys can flex the chain rings. Get rid of them. Keep in mind, Specialized can and do make many good bicycle components but they aren't a perfect company as we learn on the forum. There is no such thing as a company that makes all products perfect. Further they don't have the technical expertise of Campy or Shimano when it comes to crank design. That is their bread and butter. Replace your Sworks cranks with either Campy Ultra Torque cranks (Campy Power Torque cranks aren't as good with issues of their own) ...or external bearing equivalent like DuraAce. For the money an Ultegra crank is probably best in the world.. Perhaps the best crank in the world independent of cost is DuraAce for its stiffness and shifting performance.. Now you have a reliable bike that will be church mouse quiet.

A side note moving forward. Basically the C-bear sleeve regresses the Sworks bikes to a threaded BB like I have on my 2012 Roubaix SL3 which btw has been perfect with Campy. If Specialized continues to sell both BB30 and their narrow version of PF30...latter causing most of the problems and....I get an itch for a new bike, I would likely buy the Sworks bike knowing the BB is the worst. The reason is, I don't even want to deal with either the BB30 or the Sworks BB as it comes from the factory. I would immediately install a C-bear sleeve in the Sworks frame and essentially make it like the english threaded BB I have on my Roubaix which causes no problems.

Again, I believe its sad and unfortunate that Specialized hasn't moved away from their version of PF30 but if they don't offer a threaded BB option, I am glad they offer an alternative to BB30 at least so their flagship Sworks bike can be converted to a threaded BB with a C-bear sleeve.
My take and good luck.


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

The C-Bear sleeve rocks. I installed mine myself, and it was easy. I used an inverted Delrin cup as a "bushing" on the left side, and was easily able to press the sleeve in with a headset press. The only nerve racking part was getting it in the last couple of millimeters (did so with a rubber mallet), but it worked out great. 

Creaking issues are gone, flex is gone, it's a million times better. 

FWIW, I run Campy Ultra Torque crank on an SL3 S-Works Tarmac.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

PJ352 - I see your point, and I doubt the BB was inspected that closely with advanced machines. I did a close visual inspection on the BB area myself to look for cracks, which should be fairly apparent since I don't think the BB area is painted. Didn't see anything, but doesn't mean they aren't there. However, the fact that the noise usually goes away after cleaning and rebuilding the BB leads me to believe that a crack is not the issue. Unless grease gets in it, makes it quiet for a bit, then eventually clears out and starts creaking again. 

Roadworthy - I'm a mechanical engineer haha. I have a very good grasp on mechanical things, which is why I also do not understand why specialized would use a delrin cup for a bearing to ride on. Especially one that receives so much torque in weird planes. 

I don't work on my own bikes because I've only seriously cycled for 2 years and don't have the tools, and I live in a condo in Washington DC and have zero room to work. I'd have no problems working on my bike if I had my own garage or a dedicated work space at least. 

As far as the c-bear goes, I thought the design just replaced the delrin cups with press fit aluminum and the Specialized bearings went in just as usual? Doesn't say on the site or in anything I've read that the Spesh crank won't fit anymore. I don't want to convert my BB to threaded and especially don't want to shell out money for a new crank. That sucks, guess C-bear isn't an option for me anymore. 


Speaking of knowing people, I'm good friends with an expert machinist who has his own shop and is always willing to help me out. Wonder if I can just get the delrin cups copied in aluminum and press those into the BB.



Edit: Now that I think about it (and read a short article), delrin when greased up should be very resistant to creaking. It's made to be a slippery bushing surface and shouldn't really make any noise. *sigh*


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

dcorn said:


> PJ352 - I see your point, and I doubt the BB was inspected that closely with advanced machines. I did a close visual inspection on the BB area myself to look for cracks, which should be fairly apparent since I don't think the BB area is painted. Didn't see anything, but doesn't mean they aren't there. However, the fact that the noise usually goes away after cleaning and rebuilding the BB leads me to believe that a crack is not the issue. Unless grease gets in it, makes it quiet for a bit, then eventually clears out and starts creaking again.
> 
> Roadworthy - I'm a mechanical engineer haha. I have a very good grasp on mechanical things, which is why I also do not understand why specialized would use a delrin cup for a bearing to ride on. Especially one that receives so much torque in weird planes.
> 
> ...


Sorry I missed the memo you were a ME dcorn.  That changes things...you understand about materials and properties. Since you do...delrin's biggest issue is it will take a compression set over time and change shape. That is when it starts to move around and make noise. It may also make noise when fresh and newly inserted however. This creaking would be due to creep against carbon. Carbon is like a membrane on a speaker...it amplifies sound....or transmission of sound is efficient. So any bushing movement and friction will make noise and why many have turned to loctiting delrin bushings in place. This still doesn't solve the low yield strength issue however. Al is much stronger. The box you are in mostly as I see it, isn't so much the BB as your alligiance to a Spesh crank. Spesh cranks are short spindle aka for BB30 or PF30 and can't be used with exterior cups...what the C-bear sleeve demands. So you are pretty much hosed if you insist on sticking with Spesh cranks which I don't think much of because of threaded spider and chainrings not known for their stiffness.
Again, I believe both Campy and Shimano cranks are better than Spesh cranks but this is just my opinion based upon respective designs.
Good luck with your bike.
PS: discussing Specialized for a second and what they are good at.
- Framesets: they make a fantastic frame...durability, stiffness, ride quality...leaders in carbon fiber.
- Saddles: Best in class IMO.
- Shoes: Excellent shoes

What I believe they suck at:
- BB's: Their BB-30 is pretty std with the industry i.e. marginal but their PF30 is pretty pathetic...and sold on their best framesets. They are moving away from external bearings and threaded BB on all their bikes.
- Cranks: Removable spiders introduce needless complexity and opportunity to loosening and loss of stiffness. Chainrings are known to flex under load
- Seatposts: They are a mixed bag here. I believe their single bolt posts are awful unless torqued very high and can still come loose if a Clyde...and their 2 bolt carbon posts are solid. Their decision to integrate the single bolt design on their suspension post is a terrible decision.

In summary, no company is perfect...from Porsche to Apple and same applies to Specialized.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

dcorn said:


> PJ352 - I see your point, and I doubt the BB was inspected that closely with advanced machines. I did a close visual inspection on the BB area myself to look for cracks, which should be fairly apparent since I don't think the BB area is painted. Didn't see anything, but doesn't mean they aren't there. However, the fact that the noise usually goes away after cleaning and rebuilding the BB leads me to believe that a crack is not the issue. Unless grease gets in it, makes it quiet for a bit, then eventually clears out and starts creaking again.


All valid points IMO, and you know the history here far better than I do. I was simply offering some info as an aside _and_ in response to your question re: Specialized possible involvement. 

FWIW, I agree that (all things considered) the creaking is more likely a BB(30) related issue, and given their seeming prominence, I'm avoiding them altogether. 

That aside, I hope you're successful in remedying yours.... :thumbsup:


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## vaetuning (Oct 1, 2009)

*Aluminum press in cups for Spesh cranks*

[QUOTE=dcorn;

As far as the c-bear goes, I thought the design just replaced the delrin cups with press fit aluminum and the Specialized bearings went in just as usual? Doesn't say on the site or in anything I've read that the Spesh crank won't fit anymore. I don't want to convert my BB to threaded and especially don't want to shell out money for a new crank. That sucks, guess C-bear isn't an option for me anymore. 

Hi dcorn;

C-Bear has just released some very nice aluminum press in cups with hybrid ceramic berings - specially made for: carbon OSBB and Specialized cranks!!!

Those are a hundred times better than the delrin solution will ever be!!

Heard from a reliable source that the cups are being used by the protour teams!!

With respect

Mads


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Just to stir the pot a bit... Are you POSITIVE that your noise is the BB/crank? I had an awful "crack" sound that occurred on each pedal stroke when loaded, seated or standing etc. which I was sure was the BB/something in that area, and it turned out to be the headset. Now I've adjusted my fair share of headsets, and I checked it repeatedly. I finally had to *forcefully* oscillate the bike forward and back with the front brake locked to reproduce the sound. I had to tighten the top cap screw quite a bit more than I normally would to get it to stop. I think this is also a known issue with headsets on some Spesh bikes (mine is a Roubaix SL3). Mainly I'm asking because you mention your crash which mainly impacted the front end of your bike.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

vaetuning said:


> dcorn;
> As far as the c-bear goes said:
> 
> 
> ...


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Guys, thanks for all the help. Sorry if any of my posts sound snooty or standoffish, I really don't mean to be. I'm taking all the suggestions in and just trying to weigh the best options at this point. 

Roadworthy, again I appreciate all the insight and it has really got me thinking. I wasn't being a smart ass about the engineer thing, but when you were saying "some guys aren't mechanical", I figured it was funny so I'd throw it out there  Anywho, the main reason I'd rather not switch cranks is because I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars to replace parts because of an issue caused by my bike from the factory. The thing was NOT cheap so I just expect it to work perfectly, ya know? 

I understand what you're saying about the multi-piece crank and removable spider, but I kind of like that feature. I have standard chainrings now, but I'll probably be swapping to a mid-compact setup, so it's nice to be able to swap out the spider and not the whole crank. I'm going for the Praxis rings which are supposed to be crazy stiff. Also, a quick google search showed the S-works crank on Boonen and Contador's recent SL4s, so it can't be all that bad haha.

Mads, thank you for posting up about the new C-bear OSBB replacement setup. I'm guessing this is what you are talking about? It looks like a promising option. 

http://www.c-bear.com/en/osbb-en/specialized-race-bb-osbb-ceramic-bearings.php


Now for the 2013 speculation, on the CeramicSpeed Facebook page, they posted a bunch of pics of S-works bikes saying their bearings were going to be used in all S-works BB's as well as new Roval carbon wheels. I asked about my problem and here is their response:

"The bearings still rest in delrin cups. But Specialized recently moved away from the system with a wave washer. 
If you have this system on your bike it would maybe be worth lookingfor an upgrade to the new system. I cannot 
promise anything but switching to CeramicSpeed bearings often help solve durability issues. And at the same 
time they reduce the friction in the BB."


I wonder if the wave washer is part of the problem as well. I haven't noticed any lateral play in the crank, but it could be there. If I put the C-bear sleeve in, would I still use the wave washer or could we just use shims or the '3-bolt spacer' in there to set the preload?


OldChipper, good point about the headset. The bars were definitely impacted because my hoods, brake levers and tape were a bit scarred up after the accident. I was worried about the carbon bars, as well as the frame by the headset because it had what appeared to be a chip in it. During the crash inspection, they disassembled the headset to make sure the frame wasn't compromised on the inside where the chip was. All was well.

I'm pretty sure it's the BB mostly because when the creaking gets pretty bad, I can feel it in my feet. That's what got me questioning the pedal bearings as well. Plus the fact that it comes and goes with a BB rebuild. Yesterday I did a short ride with my girlfriend who just got her first road bike. Going slow, I was barely putting any power to the pedals and it still makes noise just rotating. I even heard it when I had my hands off the bars haha.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

roadworthy said:


> Sorry I missed the memo you were a ME dcorn.  That changes things...you understand about materials and properties. Since you do...delrin's biggest issue is it will take a compression set over time and change shape.
> 
> Spesh cranks are short spindle aka for BB30 or PF30 and can't be used with exterior cups...what the C-bear sleeve demands.
> 
> ...


i have to ask, have you ever worked on the specialized Sworks bottom bracket and crank?

there is really no reason for all the hate

there are some good things and bad things about it, I think the good out weighs the bad

it is highly unlikely that the delrin is deforming permanently, it has no where to go, and in my experience under moderate loads for extended periods of time, it has very little creep

and if it does, than it is very easy to replace

if the carbon hole is not round, and you put something into it that forces it to be round, you are going to put a lot of stress into the carbon

there are numerous complaints about the BB30 metal standard and creaking also, in that case you have metal on metal with a retaining ring

PF30 is an industry standard but that is not really what specialized is using, yes it is press fit for a BB30 bearing and accepts a BB30 crankset, no it is not PF30

it is their own

there are numerous other press fit standards and that is probably going to be the future, like it or not

go over to wheels manufacturing and have a gander on how they adapt them using delrin pushings

Wheels Manufacturing BB30, PF30, BBRight, 386EVO Bottom Bracket Adapters

the specialized crank is essentially a lightening crank that I assume they licensed

Lightning Cycle Dynamics -- Welcome!

it is a very light, strong and well thought out crankset. The removable spider has advantages like you can switch from 110 to 130 without have to buy new arms and it makes installing a quark power meter, very elegant

ever look at a canondale hollowgram crankset?

chain rings, since they are removable, you can put other ones one, like, Mr. Contador










to me the real issue is that specialized top of the line frames are OSBB (BB30)

and if you are in love with a crank manufacturer that doesn't have a BB30 crank, now you have a problem because an outboard bearing used in a press fit application seems less than ideal as you put a torque on it

so in my mind if you have to have Campy, i would get a bike with a threaded bottom bracket

shimano, get a threaded bottom bracket or shimano pressfit frame (Trek, Giant)

now I suppose what would really be nice is if the bottom bracket world would consolidate


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

purdyd said:


> i have to ask, have you ever worked on the specialized Sworks bottom bracket and crank?
> 
> there is really no reason for all the hate
> 
> ...


Good to have a difference of opinion and will say in response, it isn't me who has hate...I am not a hater. I am only stating the obvious. Copious owners have had issues with both Specialized version of PF-30 and BB-30. That is fact and not conjecture. As to myself...I deliberately purchased one of the last framesets Specialized will make with a threaded BB...a 2012 Roubaix Pro. Nothing but love btw...it has been perfect...rode 70 miles last night on it pretty hard and the bike has been flawless. I will add integrated BB's have been one the biggest warranty and service issues for all bike makers.

Please explain something if you would. Explain the precise differences between Specialized version of PF-30 aka 62mm wide PF-30 and industry standard PF-30. Would like to hear your thoughts if you would....differences in particular.

As to cranks...sorry just not a fan of a removable spider. IMO the downside of having a component crank for benefit of adaptability to compact and full size bolt circle is needless. Most riders know what their gearing should be...I ride 110mm for example and if riders don't know what gearing they need then they shouldn't be springing for a $500 crankset...lol. I will say further the vast majority of riders would be best served on a 110 BCD. This is for the simple fact you can run bigger than std. compact gearing on a 110 BCD and very few need the gear inches of a full size crank.
The beauty of the Campy crank for example is its simplicity. Yes Lightening/Specialized plagerized Campy's hirth joint but fell short the rest of the way again in this engineer's opinion. You think Lightening knows as much about crank design as Campy or Shimano?...ah no. Glad you like the Spesh crank. Btw...be careful about sighting pro's riding given parts. Many if not most times the components...frames, wheels, cranks etc are nothing like what is available to the public...though sometimes they are off the shelf. This pervades sport btw...not just cycling.
Cheers.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

roadworthy said:


> Good to have a difference of opinion and will say in response, it isn't me who has hate...I am not a hater. I am only stating the obvious. Copious owners have had issues with both Specialized version of PF-30 and BB-30. That is fact and not conjecture. As to myself...I deliberately purchased one of the last framesets Specialized will make with a threaded BB...a 2012 Roubaix Pro. .
> Cheers.


Ok, so you don't have any experience with OSBB or specialized cranks

Which by the way has cups with thick lips on it to get to the 68mm bb30 standard

Which makes it different from PF30. They have different width shells

Like Alberto, I don't use specializes chain rings, you don't have to be a pro

I am excited you think everyone needs a compact crank - I happen to lie mine too, I might consider something different if I lived some where that was flat

I happen to think this is pretty slick too Specialized Quarq Power Meter

It is however a point the op should consider, his spider might need to be tightened

I truly wish that when someone said they were an engineer that it would grant them instant credibility in something they haven't tried

Sadly, after a quarter of a century and a couple of degrees in engineering, I can say from experience, that is not always the case.

You always learn some humility and that results trump paper. 

You may not have hate but your words say otherwise,

"sucks" "disgrace and denigrates"

That is some strong language from someone who has never used osbb


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

purdyd said:


> I just want to argue with you and really don't offer much in terms of substance.


I see that is your problem.
Well...all I can suggest is redirect some of your hostility to the common good of the forum. You may disagree with me which is fine and I accept it. Even if you were a reasonable man which you provide no proof of, it is OK for reasonable men to disagree about things. Tell you what. I don't like Specialized carbon OSBB which *IS* PF-30 in its entirety except shell width...my point that went right over your head...I didn't say your pointed head  and you apparently like the Spesh set up. dcorn...also a ME has had his Sworks bike in twice to the shop and I might add, a common theme...and they haven't been able to quiet his BB. I told him what would fix it...C-bear + a different crank. Why don't you give dCorn some advice? I already know you don't know what you are talking about so no sense arguing with me...lol.


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## tonytourist (Jan 21, 2009)

roadworthy said:


> If my prize Sworks frame, I would think long and hard about your next step. I would do a lot of research on that 2 part epoxy and contact Specialized to discuss removal because if you stick with delrin bushings, you WILL remove the bushings...likely again and again. For me and again, Specialized maybe evolving their version of PF30 as you have explained, but if you want a solid solution, the C-bear sleeve is it as Mads has explained. Delrin bushings whether epoxied in or not will continue to fail.
> Before you epoxy anything, consider at least waiting to see if Specialized for 2013 has changed the bearings as discussed to an integrated bearing/cup assembly...and hopefully the bearing cup is aluminum. I will say, I doubt the integrated bearings will have an AL cup however. This is because installation and removal for service will take its toll on a carbon shell which isn't a good practice for service. This comes fully circle back to C-bear which protects the virgin carbon shell and does a lot better job retaining bearings.


I like my S Works frame, however, if I chose to have the shop install a part per Specialized's instructions and later it cannot be removed/serviced it won't be my problem. Specialized will have to figure out what to do in that situation. Maybe the SL5 will be out by then :thumbsup: I can't recall what the price for the cups and bearings is, however, I can likely buy 3-4 sets for the price of one C Bear sleeve.. which will likely void my warranty anyway. My bike has been ridden for over a year, probably between 13 and 14k miles on the BB parts so it's likely time to replace them anyway. 

I don't know what you're talking about with the Specialized crankset not being stiff enough due to the spider design, because it is plenty stiff for me. I also like the ability to swap spiders if I want to toss a compact on for anything that involves even more climbing than I currently do. Chainrings + spider = a lot cheaper than buying a $500 crankset


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tonytourist said:


> I also like the ability to swap spiders if I want to toss a compact on for anything that involves even more climbing than I currently do. Chainrings + spider = a lot cheaper than buying a $500 crankset


This isn't the first time I've read this, so I have to ask... since there are 49, 50 (Shimano at Amazon for ~$45), 51T 130 BCD chainrings readily available, why the need for removable spiders??


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> This isn't the first time I've read this, so I have to ask... since there are 49, 50 (Shimano at Amazon for ~$45), 51T 130 BCD chainrings readily available, why the need for removable spiders??


Yup...if it made more sense for industry leaders Campag and Shimano to have removable spiders, they would. Specialized has pockets of expertise for sure, but crank design isn't their long suit...basically 'borrowing' their design from Lightening who never had the R&D of either of the top component manufactures.

I believe a loose spider is a bad idea. Its also not only susceptible to coming loose, but spider torque effects overall crank stiffness. It also takes a special tool to tighten the spider. Some know that many times less complexity makes for a better product. Such is the case with cranks. In fact, it is one of the reasons External bearing cranks are superior to square taper where both sides of the spindle are detachable...but there are other reasons as well. Less is more when it comes to better designs in many cases.

The convertibility issue is a non issue for the vast majority of riders. For one, unless you can generate in excess of 1000 watts in a sprint, a rider doesn't need a full size crank. Further, as you state the case for smaller rings on a 130 BCD, larger rings are easily adaptable to a compact aka 110 BCD...so both BCD's can generally be adapted to accomodate marginal riding conditions. As discussed, I ride a Campy carbon compact UT 10s crank with 50/38t on relatively flat terrain...and misunderstanding about gearing is...redundant gear inches is good. With std. compact aka 50/34, there is constant shifting between front rings because of big gear inch gulf. If I run 11t as my smallest cog it takes king kong to push it on the flat with a 50t big ring and one can descend at 40 mph + without spinning out. Will say again, a full size crank is for a big time racer who needs the gear inches and they don't bother with compacts and simply grab a 130 BCD off the shelf or don't show up. If one doesn't race for a living, a 110 BCD is the way to go because of its versatliity. If you live in the mountains and need both short inches for climbing and big gear inches for descending, a triple makes a lot of sense for the non racer...say if taking a bike trip to the Alps. I have owned triples on a few road bikes and have to say they are wonderful really...bicycle equivalent to close ratio gearing. In the case of the best crank makers in the world, Campy and Shimano, they know that less is more with a non removal spider. Many that work in the industry understand this as well. This is the ONLY reason they don't commonize both with removal spider as it would save on tooling cost of having separate crank designs...the *real* reason Specialized does it.
Cheers.


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## tonytourist (Jan 21, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> This isn't the first time I've read this, so I have to ask... since there are 49, 50 (Shimano at Amazon for ~$45), 51T 130 BCD chainrings readily available, why the need for removable spiders??


You can't run a 34 on a 130 :idea:




roadworthy said:


> The convertibility issue is a non issue for the vast majority of riders. For one, unless you can generate in excess of 1000 watts in a sprint, a rider doesn't need a full size crank. .


Good thing I'm always over that


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tonytourist said:


> You can't run a 34 on a 130 :idea:


True, but there are several options available to get to the same (or similar) gear ratios without resorting to a crankset with removable spider - and those with removable spiders have limitations/ disadvantages as well.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Interestingly, Shimano has gone to 110BCD only for the new Dura Ace FC-9000 for 2013, and they claim that they can make the chain rings stiff enough up to 55T. Clearly this helps them with tooling costs and reduce SKUs, but it also allows customers to switch back and forth between standard and compact gearing. For crisp front gear changes you have to swap them in pairs. Of course a pair of Dura Ace chain rings costs about as much as I'm prepared to spend on a new crank-set in total, though presumably this will trickle down to Ultegra by 2014/2015 ...

Specialized's dogged determination with the OSBB is partly because they can then justify Specialized cranks across the range rather than group-set cranks. This is the single most expensive component on the bike, which means additional cost/profit margin for them.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

ukbloke said:


> Interestingly, Shimano has gone to 110BCD only for the new Dura Ace FC-9000 for 2013, and they claim that they can make the chain rings stiff enough up to 55T. Clearly this helps them with tooling costs and reduce SKUs, but it also allows customers to switch back and forth between standard and compact gearing. For crisp front gear changes you have to swap them in pairs. Of course a pair of Dura Ace chain rings costs about as much as I'm prepared to spend on a new crank-set in total, though presumably this will trickle down to Ultegra by 2014/2015 ...
> 
> Specialized's dogged determination with the OSBB is partly because they can then justify Specialized cranks across the range rather than group-set cranks. This is the single most expensive component on the bike, which means additional cost/profit margin for them.


Many good points.
I took a bit of time the other day to study the different BB's on the Roubaix line of new bikes for 2013. Even though the threaded BB is dropped for Pro and Sworks appears to maintain carbon OSBB aka narrow PF30, I am encouraged that Specialized is maintaining a threaded BB for their Expert line of Roubaix's which is a high quality frameset and close equivalent to the Pro...only with threaded BB. This is good news.
What is also interesting are the price points of the Ultegra equipped Roubaix Expert SL4 = $3800 USD and the new higher price of the Pro frameset which is essentially the same frameset only without threaded BB and different paint job. The Pro now costs a whooping $2850 UISD which is less than $1000 more for a complete Roubaix Expert SL4 bike. So the Specialized bean counters are getting a bit cute in an effort to separate the Pro...or an inducement to purchase the top of line Sworks frameset which most know is basically a Pro only with one more level of high modulus carbon...likely not distinguishable to the average rider or even racer for that matter. An interesting tangled web of perceived value versus price point. The Pro for me and certainly for Campy lovers is now less attractive without threaded BB and the Ultegra equipped Roubaix Expert makes a lot of sense for a good recreational rider for sure. If I didn't have a Campy groupset available I would have been happy with DuraAce or Ultegra for my recent Roubaix Pro build....or even electronic Ultegra.
Cheers.


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## wetpaint (Oct 12, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> This isn't the first time I've read this, so I have to ask... since there are 49, 50 (Shimano at Amazon for ~$45), 51T 130 BCD chainrings readily available, why the need for removable spiders??


This is why removable spiders are needed. If not for powermeters, I probably wouldn't care either way


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

wetpaint said:


> This is why removable spiders are needed. If not for powermeters, I probably wouldn't care either way


Gotcha.. never thought of it because I don't use them, but that makes sense..


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

After sending the C-bear link to the mechanic, I got no response. Went in today to buy some brake pads and talked to him for a second. He said they'd probably be ordering a run of the C-bear sleeves and stocking them in the shop! As a pretty high end specialized dealer, I'm guessing they see and fix enough of these OSBB issues to justify the cost. He seemed to have done his research online and even talking to specialized themselves and commented that they were not a fan of the sleeve. I responded "of course, someone else solved their problem and is making money on the deal!"

As for now, my crank issues have minimized quite a bit. I don't hear any noise most of the time and only a small creak here and there when under a ton of load. I'm planning on swapping to 52-36 praxis chainrings, which means I'll have to pull the crank to replace the spider anyway. I'll get them to throw a C-bear sleeve in at the same time and hopefully I'll never have to touch the crank again.


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## hipo_p51 (Jul 6, 2012)

Unless I missed it being mentioned in the thread, but s works framesets come with the ceramic bearings now. Just built my sl4 sworks tarmac and the ceramics came with it. So far the machine runs perfect.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

My SL3 S-works bike came with ceramic BB bearings. Now they are "Ceramicspeed" bearings (a specific company), but they are still pressed into delrin cups in the carbon BB. 

If specialized had changed to aluminum cups, I would have upgraded my bike with their parts. Since they didn't, I'll be going with C-bear.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

roadworthy said:


> I see that is your problem.
> Well...all I can suggest is redirect some of your hostility to the common good of the forum. You may disagree with me which is fine and I accept it. Even if you were a reasonable man which you provide no proof of, it is OK for reasonable men to disagree about things. Tell you what. I don't like Specialized carbon OSBB which *IS* PF-30 in its entirety except shell width...my point that went right over your head...I didn't say your pointed head  and you apparently like the Spesh set up. dcorn...also a ME has had his Sworks bike in twice to the shop and I might add, a common theme...and they haven't been able to quiet his BB. I told him what would fix it...C-bear + a different crank. Why don't you give dCorn some advice? I already know you don't know what you are talking about so no sense arguing with me...lol.


Wow, seriously, you have to make up quotes from me? Apparently if some one disagrees you start to make things up and insult them? That makes you a reasonable person.

I am unreasonable because I have another point of view?

So apparently if you insult some one and put a  it is ok

Apparently you missed MY point, if you buy a press fit 30 bb from SRAM it will NOT work with the osbb frames, you have to use the specialized sleeve

And btw, if you go to a press fit standard, you are going to get a plastic sleeve

I think if you read my comments I offered several suggestions to investigate that didn't involve throwing away the crank, which is a perfectly fine piece of equipment

You on the other hand, have not helped one bit

Apparently the fact that you can mount a power meter in place of the spider, kind of just flew by everyone

And yes there are some compact chain rings that fit on full size spider, it does somewhat limit your options 

And if you had ever installed the crank you would appreciate the advantage the coupling in the middle has over a SRAM bb30 crank

Here is another helpful tip, coat the cups, bearings, and crankshaft with dupont krytox Teflon grease

It is pretty obvious you don't know what you are talking about because you have never serviced or installed and osbb crankset

And osbb is not some vast conspiracy by specialized to sell more cranks, because you can buy any bb30 crankset and install it, and because of its width, you can buy adapters for external bearings

But I would agree, that if you just have to a crankset that would require external bearings on a bb30 bike, I would consider a different bike

External press fit bearings do not make sense to me at all


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

dcorn said:


> PJ352 - I
> Edit: Now that I think about it (and read a short article), delrin when greased up should be very resistant to creaking. It's made to be a slippery bushing surface and shouldn't really make any noise. *sigh*


Yes delrin (acetal) is very slippery

I have been using DuPont krytox grease

If you look at the specialized installation instructions, you should grease the inside and outside of the cup as well as the crank where it rests against the bearing

I still think you should try some other cups, they are relatively inexpensive

Perhaps you can borrow another bb30 crankset?


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