# How close does spoke length have to be?



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm building up a front wheel with a Novatec A141SB hub and a HED Belgium C2 rim. According to this site, Edd, an easy to use spoke calculator the spoke length will be 280.8mm. Will 282mm spokes work with this setup?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

deviousalex said:


> I'm building up a front wheel with a Novatec A141SB hub and a HED Belgium C2 rim. According to this site, Edd, an easy to use spoke calculator the spoke length will be 280.8mm. Will 282mm spokes work with this setup?


You should be within +/-1mm. So with 282 you are just 0.2mm over this limit. If it was me I would give it a go. At worst you will gain some experience. But if it's as easy to get 280 then do it.

This is assuming that the calculation was correct - if you didn't measure your own ERD or hubs and used a bad calculator then you're taking a chance.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> This is assuming that the calculation was correct - if you didn't measure your own ERD or hubs and used a bad calculator then you're taking a chance.


OP ---- I'm quoting what Mike said to make sure you don't miss it. Very important to make your own measurements on rims and hubs AND to measure them according to the instructions of the spoke calculator you are using.

Its best to have the spoke supporting the nipple head


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dcgriz said:


> OP ---- I'm quoting what Mike said to make sure you don't miss it. Very important to make your own measurements on rims and hubs AND to measure them according to the instructions of the spoke calculator you are using. Its best to have the spoke supporting the nipple head


I recently used Roger Musson's calculator and the exact method that he uses for hub and rim ERD measurement, just to see how accurately his stuff works and it was perfection. All three spoke lengths ended up exactly where they should - between the bottom of the slot and the top of the head.

I'm sure other calculators work just as well (I've used others in the past with great success) and it is important to measure the way they suggest for their calculators.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2013)

A spoke that is 1.2mm to long will work fine. It does not hurt for the spoke to protrude past the nipple a small amount. However, To long and the nipple will bottom out on the threads.
Edd spoke calculator is a good program. You can also verify your spoke length by watching the video at the top of the Ed spoke calculator page and learn how to go through the measurements yourself. Are spokes that are 281mm unavailable?


I bought a set of spokes last night from Universalcycles.com. Today when I got home from work I had an email that they had shipped my order. However my rim that I bought from Wheelbuilder.com has not sent me a shipped email but I am sure they will in a day or two. Universal cycles did not list the rim I wanted is the reason I did not buy that from them also. I am doing a build on the Velocity A23 OC rim (for the rear). Figuring spoke length on an off center rim is a little harder as you have to compensate the flange distance right and left by the amount of the offset. But obviously your single length spoke decision is for a front wheel. Probably a 1x or 2x given the shorter length.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> A spoke that is 1.2mm to long will work fine. It does not hurt for the spoke to protrude past the nipple a small amount. However, To long and the nipple will bottom out on the threads.
> Edd spoke calculator is a good program. You can also verify your spoke length by watching the video at the top of the Ed spoke calculator page and learn how to go through the measurements yourself. Are spokes that are 281mm unavailable?
> 
> 
> I bought a set of spokes last night from Universalcycles.com. Today when I got home from work I had an email that they had shipped my order. However my rim that I bought from Wheelbuilder.com has not sent me a shipped email but I am sure they will in a day or two. Universal cycles did not list the rim I wanted is the reason I did not buy that from them also. I am doing a build on the Velocity A23 OC rim (for the rear). Figuring spoke length on an off center rim is a little harder as you have to compensate the flange distance right and left by the amount of the offset. But obviously your single length spoke decision is for a front wheel. Probably a 1x or 2x given the shorter length.


This is my first attempt to build a wheel. I saw 280mm spokes and figured they would be too short so I went with 282mm. It will be a 24 spoke front wheel with 1x lacing.


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

deviousalex said:


> This is my first attempt to build a wheel. I saw 280mm spokes and figured they would be too short so I went with 282mm. It will be a 24 spoke front wheel with 1x lacing.


Yeah, lots of places only stock even or odd lengths (for reference universalcycles.com typically stocks all lengths). As others noted 1.2mm should be ok, though for future it is probably safer to round down (I would have used 180 in your case). I have heard +/- 2mm is fine, though 2mm might be pushing it. If you want you could use nipple washers (e.g. sapim polyax round) in your build. This will use up a little more length (I believe the mentioned washers add 1.5mm to ERD) and also helps spread load and ensure a consistent interface for the nipple. I use washers on builds now by default since it adds almost no weight and eases builds when rims might have a less than perfectly smooth spoke hole interface.

I definitely have had rims with ERD that was different from claimed, so now I measure my rims using Roger Musson's relatively easy method -- before ordering spokes. It sucks to get a couple hours into a build and realize the spokes are too long.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

pushstart said:


> If you want you could use nipple washers (e.g. sapim polyax round) in your build. This will use up a little more length (I believe the mentioned washers add 1.5mm to ERD) and also helps spread load and ensure a consistent interface for the nipple. I use washers on builds now by default since it adds almost no weight and eases builds when rims might have a less than perfectly smooth spoke hole interface.


I used them on my recent set of wheels. They measured 0.7mm each with the vernier caliper so your "1.5mm" is fine. To be sure, I installed them onto my dummy spokes for measuring. They weighed 9 grams total (4f, 5r) - a very worthy addition IMO.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

You guys are making me so jealous, I would love to build a nice Pacenti/Kinlin/Hed 23mm rim with an inexpensive hub to give the wide rims a try but have no idea on these spoke lengths. I always "ass"umed you had to take hub flange height into account. Doh.  
Are there any diy "kits" that come with the appropriately sized spokes with washers, rims, and hubs?


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

You do need to take the hub flanges (and spacing) into account. Luckily those numbers are provided by hub manufacturers and can generally be trusted (you don't have to measure them yourself). Getting the right lengths is easy using an online spoke calculator. I recommend reading the book and using calculator from http://www.wheelpro.co.uk

For spokes and cheap-but-good hubs (and Pacenti rims if you like) BikeHubStore.com is a good source.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

The best DIY kit you can buy is Roger Musson's e-book (look it up) and from it, you can learn every aspect of wheelbuilding with nothing left out. And don't do what someone in this thread said - use a manuf's printed specs for any rim or hub. They *have* been wrong and they have been found to have been wrong.


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

Mike T. said:


> The best DIY kit you can buy is Roger Musson's e-book (look it up) and from it, you can learn every aspect of wheelbuilding with nothing left out. And don't do what someone in this thread said - use a manuf's printed specs for any rim or hub. They *have* been wrong and they have been found to have been wrong.


You may recall from Musson's book that he specifically recommends using mfr claimed dimensions for hubs ... they are built to tight tolerances. This is consistent with my experience; I have had wrong rim ERD, but never hub measurements. OTOH, if you have the caliper feel free to measure your hubs.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Thanks guys., great info
Didn't mean to hijack the thread, just very curious.
Back to our originally scheduled content...


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

upstateSC-rider said:


> ... Are there any diy "kits" that come with the appropriately sized spokes with washers, rims, and hubs?


Email the Bike Hub Store. He'll set you up with Pacentis, fine BHS hubs, proper spokes and nipples. ... Or his version of the Kinlin rim.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

looigi said:


> Email the Bike Hub Store. He'll set you up with Pacentis, fine BHS hubs, proper spokes and nipples. ... Or his version of the Kinlin rim.


Yes Brandon will and he's a fine upstanding fellow who would do his absolute best but Upstate (or anyone else) shouldn't get complacent because of this. It might come the day when a rim or hub is bought elsewhere and website specs are believed. And no-one is going to absorb the fallout from the incorrect info - except the unfortunate buyer.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2013)

The Novatech A141SB hub , HED C2 Rim (ERD 592), 24spokes, 1x requires a 280.8 mm length spoke. I would buy 281mm spokes. If unavailable in whatever spoke you want to buy then I would buy 282mm spokes.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Are nipple washers universal? 

Velofuze Round Nipple Washers Fits Stans Notubes Rims ZTR Flow Arch Alpha | eBay

I may just pick up some of those.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

pushstart said:


> You may recall from Musson's book that he specifically recommends using mfr claimed dimensions for hubs ... they are built to tight tolerances. This is consistent with my experience; I have had wrong rim ERD, but never hub measurements. OTOH, if you have the caliper feel free to measure your hubs.


Musson wants to measure the center-to-flange to the inside of the flange. The published information on a lot of hubs does not indicate where their dimensions are taken and unfortunatelly this has become a standard practice with manufacturers publishing dimensions taken on the outside side of the flange to make the hub geometry (read: bracing angles) appear better on paper. A very well known boutique hub manufacturer is guilty on that with their latest 11 speed offering. Shimano is another example of wrong hub dimensions published on their Tech Tips Hub Dimensions pdf.

So unless you know exactly where and how the hubs are measured, measure them yourself for the most accurate results.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

deviousalex said:


> Are nipple washers universal?


Nope. The ones I used were cupped and these look to be flat. The nipples are rounded on their shoulders, fitting the cupped washers perfectly. They claim theirs weigh 2g for 32. 52 of mine weighed 9g so I doubt their weight claim. Brandon at BHS sells the cupped ones.


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

dcgriz said:


> Musson wants to measure the center-to-flange to the inside of the flange. The published information on a lot of hubs does not indicate where their dimensions are taken and unfortunatelly this has become a standard practice with manufacturers publishing dimensions taken on the outside side of the flange to make the hub geometry (read: bracing angles) appear better on paper. A very well known boutique hub manufacturer is guilty on that with their latest 11 speed offering. Shimano is another example of wrong hub dimensions published on their Tech Tips Hub Dimensions pdf.
> 
> So unless you know exactly where and how the hubs are measured, measure them yourself for the most accurate results.


Good points. Yes, I guess I have just lucked out in the past, choosing hubs that are correctly measured (or measured in accordance with calculator expectations).


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