# carbon weaves



## by666 (Mar 22, 2004)

is there any difference in ride quality between a frame made with a 3k carbon weave and a frame with a 12k carbon weave. is one better than the other?


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

By all accounts of people in the know, the carbon weave is cosmetic and has no impact to how the frame performs.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Ride quality*



by666 said:


> is there any difference in ride quality between a frame made with a 3k carbon weave and a frame with a 12k carbon weave. is one better than the other?


Wouldn't that depend on tube wall thickness, tube shape, tube diameter, quality of build, and a bunch of other factors?


----------



## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

http://carb.com/s.nl/it.I/id.2/.f

All else being equal, a 3k frame will be stronger. All else is never equal and frame ride usually depends on constructions techniques and such. Also worth noting, 3k/12k weave often refers to the cosmetic layer, not the actual structural fibers.


----------



## IAmCosmo (Jul 26, 2005)

The structural carbon just looks black. The "weave" is laid on last for cosmetic purposes. If you took a painted frame and stripped the paint off, you wouldn't see much of a weave at all.


----------



## eldarko (Oct 27, 2007)

From what I understand the bikes that look "carbon" are from a cosmetic outer layer. Some companies even leave this off to save weight. The C'dale Super Six is an example.


----------



## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

Yes, there is a difference if frames with a different weave have other differences such as different carbon fibers. E.g., compare Pedal Force frames with Motobecane/Bottecchia and 2008 Scattante. They are different.


----------



## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> Wouldn't that depend on tube wall thickness, tube shape, tube diameter, quality of build, and a bunch of other factors?


Nope. Not at all. It's entirely material dependent. I'm pretty sure that I saw a test somewhere that showed that a bike frame made from solid chromoly 1.5" bar has a lively, yet comfortable ride while all the CF bikes that frame was tested against caused traumatic tooth loss and several strangulated hemorrhoids. Unfortunately none of the CF bike tests were able to run to completion since all of the CF frames exploded well before the end of the tests.


----------



## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

IAmCosmo said:


> The structural carbon just looks black. The "weave" is laid on last for cosmetic purposes. If you took a painted frame and stripped the paint off, you wouldn't see much of a weave at all.


This is true only in part. UD CF is black; however, a few CF frame makers have said that woven CF matte can be and is used as a structural component.


----------



## david462 (Jan 3, 2008)

well what does 3k and 12k even mean? i think it has to do with the weave, but what do the numbers tell you?


----------



## IAmCosmo (Jul 26, 2005)

Forrest Root said:


> This is true only in part. UD CF is black; however, a few CF frame makers have said that woven CF matte can be and is used as a structural component.


I'm just posting what I was told by a couple frame builders. I don't claim to have any carbon knowledge...


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

david462 said:


> well what does 3k and 12k even mean? i think it has to do with the weave, but what do the numbers tell you?


A single carbon fiber is actually a bundle of many carbon filaments. One 3k fiber is a bundle of 3,000 filaments, one 6k fiber is a bundle of 6,000 filaments, and so on. The photo shows one carbon filament (lower left to upper right) compared to a human hair.

Obviously, a 3k fiber is smaller than a 6k or 12k fiber. You have to get fairly close to a part to recognize a weave made with 3k fibers, so it's used in making a weave for small parts. If you want the weave to be visible from further away on a frame or fork, you'd specify one made with 12k or larger fibers. These are only the cosmetic considerations. There are large strength and weight differences between the different size fibers as well.


----------



## georgiacyclist (Apr 5, 2008)

*Website for 3k vs 12k carbon weaver*

Check out this website. I am not claiming everything they say is accurate but they appear to know much more about carbon layups than I do. There is also a good PDF file at the bottom with additional results.
http://www.corecomposites.com/feature.cfm


----------



## timtak (May 16, 2009)

georgiacyclist said:


> Check out this website. I am not claiming everything they say is accurate but they appear to know much more about carbon layups than I do. There is also a good PDF file at the bottom with additional results.
> http://www.corecomposites.com/feature.cfm


Thanks. That site comes out in favour of 12k (as used in my frame. I wondered what the check pattern was) as being stronger, since the fibres in a looser weave are crimped (zigzagging) less.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

so all that really means is the that cosmetic layer or 2 on your frame are slightly stronger than those on a 3k layer. the actual structure of your frame doesn't look anything like the outer layer.


----------



## timtak (May 16, 2009)

Fair enough. It may be 3k underneath. 

But my guess is that the info on that site is not widely known, and that generally the higher the K, the finer the weave, the better stronger the fibre is believed to be. So if the lower layer were 3k then I think it unlikely that the bike manufacturer would have covered it in a cosmetic layer of 12K for those who have read the report above. But you never know.


----------



## latman (Apr 24, 2004)

As far as I know the well known 12K "weave" was actually something done in asia as an aesthetic layer when boeing and airbus had cornered the world market in woven 3K. It was actually regular uni-directional carbon pre-preg with extra strands laid at plus/minus 45 degrees, they have continued to make it as it still sells and was cheaper than 3K woven.


----------



## timtak (May 16, 2009)

That website (quoted above) is attempting to sell 12k weave as something that should be considered bearing in mind the shortage of 3k due to millitary aerospace demands (mentioning the Raptor jet). 

They seem to be *claiming* in a sense that 3K is hype, since while the weave of 12K is coarser, the coarsesness demands less crinkling of the fibres, and a more even distribution of the resin, and more mold layering flexibility (they use a different phrase) and thus in fact (? - they present data) results in a stronger composite (please see the detailed pdf). 

At the same time the pdf reads like an excuse for purchasing/selling the stuff that the jet manufacturers do not want to buy. 

My OEM, cheapo (but lovely!) carbon bike has the 12K checkered pattern that you can see in the pdf under the 3K weave. It does not seem to have anything at 45 degrees. 

I am not really bothered. The bike is fine. I came here because I wanted to know what the difference between the various weaves is, because I was translating an advert for 3K weave carbon wheels. 

The pdf is interesting though. 

Again, the site
http://www.corecomposites.com/feature.cfm
and the pdf
http://www.corecomposites.com/media/penetrationImpactTestResults.pdf


----------



## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

Here's my raw carbon Parlee Z3 with 3k lugs (and Deda seatpost) and unidirectional tubes (by Edge). I'm still debating on having it painted, or at least clear-coated. It's pretty stealth, now.


----------



## timtak (May 16, 2009)

*what kind of clear laquer for carbon?*

Nice. Here is my bike with a 12k frame and 3k stemp and seat post. 

Apologies to the poster above. The 12k does seem to be at 45 degrees, at least to the frame. Perhaps that is what was meant. 

By the way what is a good thing to paint ones carbon bike with for protection? I do not care all that much about looks. Clear would be fine.


----------



## jonjones13 (Jul 22, 2007)

carbon's typically painted to give it UV protection -same goes with clear-coating the stuff. If you have a 'nude' un-lacquered finish then you should coat it with some UV protection regularly


----------



## timtak (May 16, 2009)

Thank you for your response. I am not sure if my weave is nuded or not. 

I have a lacquered looking finish (in that it is glossy) but I can see the weave. 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nihonbunka/3527621951/sizes/o/

Should I bother with (re)lacqureing? Is the lacquer that which is painted on cars? Is there a UV blocking variety to aim for?

It is very sunny where I live.


----------



## testpilot (Aug 20, 2010)

For excellent UV protection, apply two coats of house paint with a roller. Sherwin Williams works best.
Seriously, shiny finish means it's clear coated. Most use automotive finishes from companies like PPG and DuPont, etc., which provide excellent UV protection.


----------

