# Will the GT Grade change the industry?



## Peanya

Very recently, I saw a picture posted on Facebook (By RBR) of a new bike that'll be coming out soon. With one look, I realized that bike was special. It is the GT Grade. Here's what caught my eye:

Super skinny seat stays for a more compliant ride
Disc brakes for safer descents
Taller head tube than other bikes for a more comfortable ride over distances.
Plus, to me, the bike looked sharp. 

I know most bike brands have their race oriented models, and their more relaxed models, but the two are almost always very close in geometry. 
GT takes this "club racer" style and seriously one-ups it. The head tube is about 2cm taller than other brands. The head tube angle is also a little slacker for more stability (yes, some people will definitely NOT like this). 

The effect of these changes will make a big change in the showroom: test rides! I'd bet that this bike will come out feeling better than others. The end result: more sales. It's like when smart phones went from this tiny 3" screen to a 5" screen. Now, everyone wants one. 

I believe this can make other bike brands change their marketing to match this. 

Of course, my curiousity being piqued, and I visited the GT website. Their pitch is almost exactly along the lines of what I was thinking too. (I'll bet there are some here who think I'm a GT Shill haha).
However, I noticed a few other things that really put me in the market for this bike: it has wider rims and clearance for wider tires too! 
My only gripes are small, and easily fixable: the handlebars are wide and flare out. Now, this is a personal preference, but I actually like narrower bars. I'd also prefer a compact option even with the taller gears, as I need all the help I can get when it comes to hills.

What are your thoughts?

p.s. Dear GT.... I'm praising you good, wanna hook up a poor cyclist?


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## tlg

That's nice to see. I've always been a GT fan. My first MTB was a GT. I still have, and ride it. 
Good to see them doing some innovation.

Here's more info.
First Look! Gravel Crushing New GT Grade Adventure Road Bike


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## duriel

Nice, but I don't get the external cable? Just drill the HT and run it down the DT!


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## Peanya

duriel said:


> Nice, but I don't get the external cable? Just drill the HT and run it down the DT!


I agree, that in this day and age, internal routing sure makes a bike look nicer. It also keeps your cables cleaner, which should give a slightly longer life out of them. 
The retro part of me is ok with it. There is one benefit: less chance of getting the cables crossed. I had that happen before, and the shop guy insisted that wasn't the cause of bad shifting. Another shop verified my suspicions, fixed it, and cleared up the shifting.


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## Mapei

I'm not quite ready to call the new bike a revolutionary change, but it does demonstrate that the makers aren't just sitting on their thinly padded laurels, putting new graphics on the same old stuff. Design and material changes have and will continue to occur. New markets and niches are discovered and exploited. I love my new Bianchi Infinito CV for this very reason.


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## Jwiffle

Giant already has the revolt and anyroad, so other manufacturers are already on the ball


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## froze

Super skinny seat stays for less durability, sounds like a plan to me.

Why not just eliminate the seat stays altogether and have them terminate at the seat tube, and put the job of the seat stays to flex and absorb bumps solely on the chain stays?


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## mjduct

No it's not going to revolutionize the industry... Nothing new on that bike that hasn't been done before or that other manufacturers aren't already doing. I've been on a salsa colossal for a year, disc brakes, slacker geometery, 28mm tires, it comes speced with a 50-34 crank, but I rebuilt it with a standard crank and a 12-30 cassette.
The warbird from colossal or the raleigh tamland would get you closer to cross range tire clearances and both come with cross gearing in the front (46-36)
For gravel/ cross riding a flared bar is a good thing, I've been using the salsa cowbell on several bikes for this purpose


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## CleavesF

I see they're still stuck on triple triangle geometry eh?


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## Ventruck

froze said:


> Super skinny seat stays for less durability, sounds like a plan to me.
> 
> Why not just eliminate the seat stays altogether and have them terminate at the seat tube, and put the job of the seat stays to flex and absorb bumps solely on the chain stays?


Cervelo's engineers claimed seat stays mainly play a role with torsional forces as opposed to vertical loading/impacts. I've seen FEA fringe plots that agree with that, but I'd think the additional measure in strengthening the chain stays would make comfort a problem all over again.


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## Luxurious.Liquids

CleavesF said:


> I see they're still stuck on triple triangle geometry eh?


That is just extra weight for aesthetics. I've talked to GT's rep, and they're trying real hard to get back into being seen as a real brand again like the 90's. (Instead of a big-box sell-out to Dick's Sporting Goods and such).


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## mtrac

I own a GT road bike bought on line and would have no idea where to buy a Grade. My favorite bike store is a GT dealer; pretty sure they carry nothing but mountain bikes. Short story is bike stores carry what they carry, and if they don't have what you want then they'll steer you to a comparable Cannondale or Trek.

Anyhoo, I'd be interested in an aluminum Grade for commuting and recreational rides, which is how I use my current bike. Might even consider carbon and turn the current bike into a dedicated commuter.


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## Burnette

*Hyperbole Cereal*

"Change the industry", wow, that ,my friend, is a bridge way too far.
All makes hype dude, and you do have their PR department's playbook written above, but that's all it is.
Like Ventruck said, Cervelo (and others) had that thin seat stay tag line going years ago. Older than this, but here is a two year old blurb about one: Pro bike: Ryder Hesjedal's Garmin-Sharp Cervélo R5ca | Cyclingnews.com

Heck, Rob English has even been banging that thin seat stay drum with his super sweet steel bikes:







Give it a year and GT will come out with "an advanced, upgraded GT Grade that is 12% more something!" And so the industry churns along.


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## Jwiffle

Luxurious.Liquids said:


> That is just extra weight for aesthetics. I've talked to GT's rep, and they're trying real hard to get back into being seen as a real brand again like the 90's. (Instead of a big-box sell-out to Dick's Sporting Goods and such).


The triple triangle is what makes GT's distinctive. As if that little extra bit really adds significant weight. I'm sure you could still build a carbon GT road bike under the UCI weight limit even with that "extra weight."

But yes, the GT guys want their brand to be seen as a high quality shop brand rather than a big-box brand. They only went to the big box stores for one year if I remember correctly (not more than 2) and they are STILL trying to lose that stigma.


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## froze

Ventruck said:


> Cervelo's engineers claimed seat stays mainly play a role with torsional forces as opposed to vertical loading/impacts. I've seen FEA fringe plots that agree with that, but I'd think the additional measure in strengthening the chain stays would make comfort a problem all over again.


I think that depends on the engineer to be quite frank! I've seen studies that showed that a bike made without seat stays was actually more comfortable due to vibration not being sent up the seat stay and into the seat while at the same time more stable according to computer models using oversized chainstays, the problem is not from an engineering standpoint the problem is with UCI that won't allow innovation to proceed and a bike with no seat stays is illegal. Beam bikes proved the effectiveness of the design years ago, now it can be done with a sort of a regular looking bike with a regular seat on the seat tube and not on a beam. And the with carbon fiber they can now build the bottom bracket very stiff by using a yoke instead of a bonded BB shell and because of the yoke you don't need a chainstay 3 times larger than normal, one that is two times larger than normal works just fine. Several bike companies are developing bikes that don't have seat stays like Lotus did with a track bike, and Culprit did with a TT bike. The only reason seat stays stay on is because of UCI which is why they are making bikes with real skinny stays for the time being until hoping for the day to come that UCI changes it minds and the law. There is some movement going on at UCI to allow lighter bikes than the current 15 pound rule because there are bikes that are in the races that are lighter than the rule allows so the teams have to add weight to the bike like the Scott Addict SL for example that weighs 13.2 pounds. The Scott and others did just fine in races without the "lack" of weight in the frame making it weaker. The whole idea behind racing bikes that are below the weight limit is to show UCI that it can be done very safely, how long will it take UCI to open it's eyes and change the rule is the next question, the new President seems to be more open to change so maybe it will happen soon in regards to weight, not sure if they'll accept bikes without seat stays anytime soon but maybe.


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## mpre53

Jwiffle said:


> The triple triangle is what makes GT's distinctive. As if that little extra bit really adds significant weight. I'm sure you could still build a carbon GT road bike under the UCI weight limit even with that "extra weight."
> 
> But yes, the GT guys want their brand to be seen as a high quality shop brand rather than a big-box brand. They only went to the big box stores for one year if I remember correctly (not more than 2) and they are STILL trying to lose that stigma.


What they really have to lose is their reputation for lousy customer service.


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## froze

mpre53 said:


> What they really have to lose is their reputation for lousy customer service.


Since when does bad customer service bother people, most of the junk made in China with known American brands have zero customer service, just try to file a customer service problem with your car company! I've had a few companies with outstanding customer service but for the most part all that has gone down the toilet. Yet people go rushing back to companies that had poor customer service and buy another product from them which teaches companies that customer service is overrated.


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## GRAVELBIKE

Many would argue that the industry was changing years ago, and that GT is a little late to the game.


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## Shuffleman

I am not sure if it is industry changing but it is good to see GT staying up there. I too have my Karakoram 1994 and still ride it. Gary Turner made fine bikes back in the day. I hope that they go back to the LBS route and stop with the mass merchandisers. I also wish that they would find some new artists to design their road bikes. They are not as good looking as they could be.


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## bolandjd

I don't want to sound too trollish, but like others have alluded to, the Grade is just GT's bid to cash in on the gravel bike trend. Nothing new. However, I would agree with the OP that gravel bikes in general are part of an industry-wide change towards more useful and comfortable bikes. Jan Heine and Grant Peterson are no longer the voices in the wilderness crying out for wider tires. Even the pro road racers are moving that direction. So-called "gravel" bikes, with their relaxed geometry and wide tire clearance are a much better choice for the majority of recreational cyclists than the Lance-wannabe roadbikes that have until now dominated the market.


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## bolandjd

Luxurious.Liquids said:


> That is just extra weight for aesthetics. I've talked to GT's rep, and they're trying real hard to get back into being seen as a real brand again like the 90's. (Instead of a big-box sell-out to Dick's Sporting Goods and such).


A little off topic, but I think that ship has sailed. I can't see them ever getting back the street cred they had in the 90's. Does anyone drop big $$$$ on a GT that's not on sale? No one I know. They're stuck in "good components for the price" entry-to-mid tier limbo. Diamondback - same thing. God help Schwinn.


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## ghettocop

bolandjd said:


> A little off topic, but I think that ship has sailed. I can't see them ever getting back the street cred they had in the 90's. Does anyone drop big $$$$ on a GT that's not on sale? No one I know. They're stuck in "good components for the price" entry-to-mid tier limbo. Diamondback - same thing. God help Schwinn.


-THIS- Plus a LOL at myself.......yes God help Schwinn, and God help me. I work at a chain that sells all three you mentioned. sigh.


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## froze

bolandjd said:


> I don't want to sound too trollish, but like others have alluded to, the Grade is just GT's bid to cash in on the gravel bike trend. Nothing new. However, I would agree with the OP that gravel bikes in general are part of an industry-wide change towards more useful and comfortable bikes. Jan Heine and Grant Peterson are no longer the voices in the wilderness crying out for wider tires. Even the pro road racers are moving that direction. So-called "gravel" bikes, with their relaxed geometry and wide tire clearance are a much better choice for the majority of recreational cyclists than the Lance-wannabe roadbikes that have until now dominated the market.


Interesting point. I have been able to ride gravel roads with just 23's but it is easier to do with wider tires that's for sure. I did note that before I purchased my Lynskey they built the bike to handle a 28 tire, maybe noting the trend you mentioned? I don't use 28's but its nice to know I have the option should I ever decide to do that for some particular reason.


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## Jay Strongbow

froze said:


> *Why not just eliminate the seat stays altogether *and have them terminate at the seat tube, and put the job of the seat stays to flex and absorb bumps solely on the chain stays?


UCI regulations.


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## crit_boy

Jay Strongbow said:


> UCI regulations.


Except, according to the Bike Rumor article linked above, "There was absolutely no regard given to UCI design restrictions."


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## froze

Jay Strongbow said:


> UCI regulations.


I did mention the issue with UCI in my post. UCI needs to get a clue, we won't see significant innovations in bikes until UCI starts allowing these sort of innovations to be used. Frame design wise bikes are stuck in the 1903 era of design.


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## AvantDale

Chop the seatstays off of Cervelo - YouTube


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## mjduct

That bike probably had a cracked bottom bracket already, that era of r3's had that issue and cervelo's awesome warranty just gave people current production new ones.


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## Roland44

tlg said:


> That's nice to see. I've always been a GT fan. My first MTB was a GT. I still have, and ride it.
> Good to see them doing some innovation.
> 
> Here's more info.
> First Look! Gravel Crushing New GT Grade Adventure Road Bike


Nice read! I have been a GT fan for more than 10 years now. Way to go GT, keep up the good work!


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## Dajianshan

Nothing is going to revolutionize the industry until riders in the pro tour start riding them. Consumers are stubborn that way. Aside from that, there is nothing really going on with that bike that other makers aren't doing. Skinny seat stays. Giant made a bike like that a couple years ago. 

Then there is a bike without seat stays: Culprit launch disc-equipped Legend bike without seatstays at Taipei International Cycle Show | road.cc

As little marketing savvy as that company has, they are trying to make a bike without seat stays. Something new. I hear it had some trouble in the wind tunnel.

I think a more revolutionary move would be to abandon the fixation with short chain stays. They do not necessarily improve performance.


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## froze

Dajianshan said:


> Nothing is going to revolutionize the industry until riders in the pro tour start riding them. Consumers are stubborn that way. Aside from that, there is nothing really going on with that bike that other makers aren't doing. Skinny seat stays. Giant made a bike like that a couple years ago.
> 
> Then there is a bike without seat stays: Culprit launch disc-equipped Legend bike without seatstays at Taipei International Cycle Show | road.cc
> 
> As little marketing savvy as that company has, they are trying to make a bike without seat stays. Something new. I hear it had some trouble in the wind tunnel.
> 
> I think a more revolutionary move would be to abandon the fixation with short chain stays. They do not necessarily improve performance.


Riders in the pro cannot start riding whatever bike they want so they revolutionize the cycling world, they can only ride bikes that fall into the legal classification of a bike according to UCI, a pro won't even be allowed to race a seatstay less bike in a pro race because it doesn't conform to UCI rules. It's UCI that's holding up revolutionary changes in bike technology, and as long as they hold that up new designs won't see their way down to us because it cost the manufactures too much money to make a bike different from what can be raced on, so most won't bother, some do take liberties though.


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## bingomck

Was just glancing at GT's website and didn't see the top-end aluminum with 105 5800 listed. Just me missing it, I hope?


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## geekjimmy

bingomck said:


> Was just glancing at GT's website and didn't see the top-end aluminum with 105 5800 listed. Just me missing it, I hope?


I think the Grade Alloy X is what you're looking for.


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## bingomck

geekjimmy said:


> I think the Grade Alloy X is what you're looking for.


Yup, you're right, thanks. 

Spec-wise, anyone seen any other 2015 bikes that can match the Grade's components and price points?


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## bingomck

Anyone seen one in the flesh yet?


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## geekjimmy

Performance has alloy models on their website, but neither of the two stores I've visited have them on the floor.


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## Trek_5200

duriel said:


> Nice, but I don't get the external cable? Just drill the HT and run it down the DT!


I see no real advantage to internal cables. If anything makes servicing a bit more difficult.


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## Dippydog3

I considered the GT grade. But in terms of what it achieves I went for something easier to obtain, service, warranty, resell etc.


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## Notvintage

duriel said:


> Nice, but I don't get the external cable? Just drill the HT and run it down the DT!


Internal cables suck. Even more so with mechanical shifting.


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## Crescent

froze said:


> Riders in the pro cannot start riding whatever bike they want so they revolutionize the cycling world, they can only ride bikes that fall into the legal classification of a bike according to UCI, a pro won't even be allowed to race a seatstay less bike in a pro race because it doesn't conform to UCI rules. It's UCI that's holding up revolutionary changes in bike technology, and as long as they hold that up new designs won't see their way down to us because it cost the manufactures too much money to make a bike different from what can be raced on, so most won't bother, some do take liberties though.


Exactly. And there were a couple of protour riders that did, such as one rider who did the fastest prologue in the TdF in 1994 and set the hour record in 1996 on such a bike. And then came the ban.

Manufacturers are moving to gains that are hard to objectively measure using a standard metric or test. Stiffness, compliance, aerodynamics, styling, etc. You'll notice that UCI regulations are limited to what can be measured with simple measuring tools, like a scale or a set of calipers.

Interestingly, some have argued that the reason for the rule was to help protect domestic European production which was versed and invested in metalworking and had little infrastructure or experience with carbon fiber. A steel frame won the TdF in 1994, and aluminum up until the Lance Era. 

Of course now that doesn't really matter anymore, but it saved Movistar and Team Sky from riding step-through Pinarello Espadas.


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## kjdhawkhill

I've only purchased 3 bikes as an adult… And never once did I consider resale value. Houses and cars sure, but as long as a bike still fits me and is durable enough to handle my abuse, I'll ride it. Once one breaks down to the point of no return, I'll buy another in that niche.


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## mpapet

l


froze said:


> Riders in the pro cannot start riding whatever bike they want so they revolutionize the cycling world, they can only ride bikes that fall into the legal classification of a bike according to UCI.


Not even close. What kind of pro are we talking about?
U.S.-based "pro?" Most are required to buy a bike at a discount. They get travel costs reimbursed and that's about it.
World Tour pro? Team issued equipment. They ride what they are given. They'll get a couple of bikes to use for racing. If they are lucky, a bike for training.

Schwinn/GT/Cannondale/Department store bikes is all the same company, Dorel. They buy bikes from OEM's like Giant and Merida and a few others I can't name because they don't have English names. Nothing special going on there.


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## froze

mpapet said:


> l
> 
> Not even close. What kind of pro are we talking about?
> U.S.-based "pro?" Most are required to buy a bike at a discount. They get travel costs reimbursed and that's about it.
> World Tour pro? Team issued equipment. They ride what they are given. They'll get a couple of bikes to use for racing. If they are lucky, a bike for training.
> 
> Schwinn/GT/Cannondale/Department store bikes is all the same company, Dorel. They buy bikes from OEM's like Giant and Merida and a few others I can't name because they don't have English names. Nothing special going on there.


I was speaking of frame design, UCI governs what the frame design should be and if anything new comes along UCI checks to see if it follows their guidelines or not, if not it can't be raced.


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## aclinjury

Crescent said:


> Exactly. And there were a couple of protour riders that did, such as one rider who did the fastest prologue in the TdF in 1994 and set the hour record in 1996 on such a bike. And then came the ban.
> 
> Manufacturers are moving to gains that are hard to objectively measure using a standard metric or test. Stiffness, compliance, aerodynamics, styling, etc. You'll notice that UCI regulations are limited to what can be measured with simple measuring tools, like a scale or a set of calipers.
> 
> Interestingly, some have argued that the reason for the rule was to help protect domestic European production which was versed and invested in metalworking and had *little infrastructure or experience with carbon fiber*. A steel frame won the TdF in 1994, and aluminum up until the Lance Era.
> 
> Of course now that doesn't really matter anymore, but it saved Movistar and Team Sky from riding step-through Pinarello Espadas.


That's nonsense. Europe is the leader in carbon fiber application. Look no further than Formula 1. All the latest supercars with the latest application of carbon fiber and tech wizardary are from Europe.

And in my opinion, the only real *revolutionary* bike in the last century is the Lotus bicycle, and it is from Europe and borned out of the culture of Formula 1. It is not from China, Taiwan, nor America. To say suggest that Europe is anti-innovation, and that the UCI is also anti-progress (because it's European?).. is bunk.


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## froze

aclinjury said:


> That's nonsense. Europe is the leader in carbon fiber application. Look no further than Formula 1. All the latest supercars with the latest application of carbon fiber and tech wizardary are from Europe.
> 
> And in my opinion, the only real *revolutionary* bike in the last century is the Lotus bicycle, and it is from Europe and borned out of the culture of Formula 1. It is not from China, Taiwan, nor America. To say suggest that Europe is anti-innovation, and that the UCI is also anti-progress (because it's European?).. is bunk.


Incorrect! Recumbents are not allowed, beam bikes are not allowed, Trek had a bike banned called the Y-Foil series, as did BMC called the AC01, and Specialized called the Shivt, just to name a few, bikes with no chain stays are banned, you can't even have curved bar extensions because it will put you into an incorrect riding position!


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## aclinjury

froze said:


> Incorrect! Recumbents are not allowed, beam bikes are not allowed, Trek had a bike banned called the Y-Foil series, as did BMC called the AC01, and Specialized called the Shivt, just to name a few, bikes with no chain stays are banned, you can't even have curved bar extensions because it will put you into an incorrect riding position!


The Trek foil is not in the same league as the Lotus. Trek basically cut out the seatpost and that's pretty much all the innovation they did. 

The Lotus, on the other hand, was true revolutionary because of not only the design but the composite material used.

Honestly, I don't put Specialzed, Trek, and BMC in the same league as Lotus. 

And speaking of Specialized, who did Specialized go to for advice when they wanted to make the lightest/stiffest most awesome S-works? McClaren!


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## froze

aclinjury said:


> The Trek foil is not in the same league as the Lotus. Trek basically cut out the seatpost and that's pretty much all the innovation they did.
> 
> The Lotus, on the other hand, was true revolutionary because of not only the design but the composite material used.
> 
> Honestly, I don't put Specialzed, Trek, and BMC in the same league as Lotus.
> 
> And speaking of Specialized, who did Specialized go to for advice when they wanted to make the lightest/stiffest most awesome S-works? McClaren!


My point is innovations like mentioned are not allowed.


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## plag

kjdhawkhill said:


> I've only purchased 3 bikes as an adult… And never once did I consider resale value. Houses and cars sure, but as long as a bike still fits me and is durable enough to handle my abuse, I'll ride it. Once one breaks down to the point of no return, I'll buy another in that niche.


I see this a lot on the golf forums. Some brands are avoided like the plague because their resale drops off the map almost as soon as their released.


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## 92gli

Dippydog3 said:


> I considered the GT grade. But in terms of what it achieves I went for something easier to obtain, service, warranty, resell etc.


Saw a Diverge comp carbon today on my lunch break. Really liked it, but I can't come to grips with the fact that the grade carbon 105 has a similar spec for $700 less. And I think the Stans rims on the GT is a notable upgrade (I want tubeless capability).

Assuming this bike shows up at performance, it's likely that it could end up around 2,200-2300 when they have a sale. Don't think I can avoid buying it.


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## MikeWMass

Sorry I'm late to the party. I think a bike with relaxed geometry is not revolutionary, it is retro! In the 70's and 80's, most people (at least that I knew) rode bikes that were not what the pro's rode. We had longer chain stays, relaxed angles, could mount a rack and fenders. We did group rides with pacelines and all on these bikes, and then I put on my panniers and commuted and shopped on the same bike. Trek tried this recently with the Gary Fischer road bikes, I am sorry they did not fly.


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## Crescent

aclinjury said:


> That's nonsense. Europe is the leader in carbon fiber application. Look no further than Formula 1. All the latest supercars with the latest application of carbon fiber and tech wizardary are from Europe.
> 
> And in my opinion, the only real *revolutionary* bike in the last century is the Lotus bicycle, and it is from Europe and borned out of the culture of Formula 1. It is not from China, Taiwan, nor America. To say suggest that Europe is anti-innovation, and that the UCI is also anti-progress (because it's European?).. is bunk.


When I said European production, I meant by European bicycle firms. The ones in bed with the UCI. At the time of the rule, many, if not most, were still making steel frames, and had branched out into aluminum, but not significantly into carbon fiber. Lotus was a single company, which was actually an automobile company. Basically, the Lotus, Europe based or not, had pretty much nothing to do with the European bicycle industry as a whole. 

Many carbon frames were collaborations with composites manufacturing firms, and not build by the bicycle companies. 

And while we were talking about seat stays and missing tubes, monocoque designs in general were banned by the UCI up until 1990. 

Yes, to answer your question, the UCI by it's arbitrary regulatory nature, is anti-innovation. The only innovation it has spurned is attempts to work around the rules. It's not that the rules never change, but the UCI is determined to make the sport of cycling advance at the pace the UCI, and companies who have influence with the UCI, find acceptable.


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## cs1

Jwiffle said:


> Giant already has the revolt and anyroad, so other manufacturers are already on the ball


Trek tried it a while back with Pilot series. It's a shame they didn't catch on. I would like to see the industry move away from more race oriented style bikes. But it seems that's what drives sales.


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## Chader09

cs1 said:


> Trek tried it a while back with Pilot series. It's a shame they didn't catch on. I would like to see the industry move away from more race oriented style bikes. But it seems that's what drives sales.


I don't have actual number, but I'm pretty sure Trek and Specialized sell more of the Domane and Roubaix than their true race bikes. Maybe those are still to race-like than some people want? Both are more relaxed and focused on comfort.


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## cs1

Chader09 said:


> I don't have actual number, but I'm pretty sure Trek and Specialized sell more of the Domane and Roubaix than their true race bikes. Maybe those are still to race-like than some people want? Both are more relaxed and focused on comfort.


And they are both great bikes. Unfortunately style sells.


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## Pirx

Peanya said:


> What are your thoughts?


Yawn. Let's get back to sleep, which is what you're the expert in. I can see why...


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## heybrady

What tires will fit on the grade? Can a 32c cross tire fit? What about a 40c?

Performance only carries up to the Tiagra model, but even so with their 30% back sale that runs in the fall it would be $1200 less $360 in credit. Good deal.


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## SwiftSolo

Electronic shifting and hydro discs make cables obsolete and internal routing a non issue. I look for all mid range and above bikes to change over in the next 5 years. Cables and housings are an unnecessary pain in the butt to those who ride in the rain. Because electrical wiring and hydro tubes can easily follow multiple reasonably sharp turns, internal routing makes sense for protection.


Trek_5200 said:


> I see no real advantage to internal cables. If anything makes servicing a bit more difficult.


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## eriku16

You forgot to add "IMHO"... What was stated is an undeniable fact. Internal routing is nosier, more difficult to install and service!


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## MaraudingWalrus

bingomck said:


> Anyone seen one in the flesh yet?



I have. Built one a couple weeks ago that we ordered for a customer. Aluminum 105 model. Really great riding bike, it rides significantly nicer than the equivalently equipped Cdale synapse and is a couple hundred bucks cheaper. 

The Grade is a really great riding bike. It looks a little funky, though. Hand finished raw aluminum, so there are random and irregular markings around the whole thing. 


Doubt you're going to find many in shops, as there really aren't many left in stock for dealers to get our hands on with most being out of stock until February or March again.


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## Hiro11

Peanya said:


> I agree, that in this day and age, internal routing sure makes a bike look nicer. It also keeps your cables cleaner, which should give a slightly longer life out of them.


Personally, I'm not a fan of internal cables. Some manufacturers do a better job than others with internal designs, but external cables are always easier to work with.

Regarding the Grade, it seems like a nice bike but isn't this a "gravel" bike? Lots of options are already out there, this isn't really "revolutionary". Personally, I like the look of the new Giant Defy.


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## ruckus

eriku16 said:


> You forgot to add "IMHO"... What was stated is an undeniable fact. Internal routing is nosier, more difficult to install and service!


I don't mind internal cabling, it's the internal cabling from shifters that annoy me. The housing forced at 90 degree angles twice before you connect to the DT. Definitely more friction than the lower models like Claris or older like the Ultegra 6700.


----------



## Jseph-s

The press seems to like it, http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/...duct/review-gt-grade-carbon-ultegra-15-48943/

I'm expecting mine somewhere around February. Bought a carbon 105.
Was looking for a roadbike to join my friends in gravel rides, and a gravel bike that could keep up with my road biking friends. I didn't want to buy two bikes, as I already have to many mountainbikes. 
I don't know if it is an industry changer, but personally I liked the look of the bike. It's something else than the familiar shape of a domane, roubaix or synapse, that are already out there.


----------



## gadufan

I got on the Aluminum 105 model as well at a LBS. I did not like the camouflage look on that, but didn't care because I was going to buy the Carbon 105, which from all the pics and videos looks pretty great. On the short test ride, it was really impressive. I rode through as many bumps and cracks in the road as I could find, took it up and off curbs, into the grass, on some gravel, and on decent pavement. It was extremely comfortable and although the handlebars will take a little getting used to (because they flare out), I think I will end up liking them, particularly through the rougher roads.

It's important to realize that this isn't exactly a gravel bike, per se. It's a road bike that can be taken on gravel without any issues. It felt like a road bike to me and seems to be a nice mix between an endurance frame (like the Roubaix or Defy) and something that can hammer some off-pavement situations really well. The Diverge looks good too, but for just about the same money, the GT Grade gives you a carbon frame, which is considerably lighter, and Notubes Grail wheels, which give you the option of tubeless. Other than that, the specs are very similar, if not identical, so it seems you get a lot for your money with the Grade.

As the previous poster mentioned, there aren't many in stock until February or March, but that depends on size. Mine should come in in a few weeks, and I'll fill you in on what I think after some rural commuting through the early winter season.

To answer another question, apparently you can put on 23-35c tires, and perhaps even larger.


----------



## Jseph-s

Looking at this picture tire clearance looks pretty good. I've been told the tire on the right should be 35c.


----------



## ruckus

It's a niche bike. I don't think it will transform industry and anything like that. If people want a gravel bike, they will buy a gravel bike. If they want an endurance road bike, they will buy an endurance road bike. Not something half in between. It will sell among those who like being unique and having an interesting bike, but I don't think it's going to be popular. It's not a cheap bike to begin with.


----------



## gadufan

While it may not transform the industry, it's also not just a niche bike. If you read the reviews and especially if you see and get on one, you'll recognize it's a road bike (basically an endurance bike) that also can hit the gravel or do well in any kind of commuting conditions. It's not a bike for racing, but I think there are quite a few people out there who want a bike that can "do it all" as best as possible who aren't planning to race. Some of us don't have the money to have multiple bikes for every possible ride we might do, but are willing to pay a bit more for a good quality bike with nice specs that can tackle any kind of road and even trails. Also, as a single bike, it won't change the industry, but GT is not the only company making a bike like this. The Specialized Diverge is another one, not to mention a number of others. The industry seems to be changing (not necessarily because of one bike). So, I don't think people get this kind of bike to be unique or interesting, but rather that it's extremely practical and makes sense for various types of riding. At least, that's why I bought one.


----------



## 92gli

Anybody been able to order a carbon 105? Got a delivery date estimate?


----------



## Jseph-s

Ordered mine in October, carbon 105 in large, should arrive here in the Netherlands end of February.


----------



## WheresWaldo

I must be daft, but I just don't see any innovation here. It is simply a renamed disc brake cross bike. Where Cyclocross has a certain rugged mountain-man type of mystique, calling it a Gravel or All Purpose bike will appeal to the masses. Its still the same bike, just marketing hype.


----------



## Jseph-s

Aren't all bikes only a result of marketing. 

But for me, a cross bike with a more relaxed,"endurance", geometry seems to be an ideal bike for the real world.


----------



## WheresWaldo

Jseph-s said:


> Aren't all bikes only a result of marketing.
> 
> But for me, a cross bike with a more relaxed,"endurance", geometry seems to be an ideal bike for the real world.


I'm still not seeing it. A Medium Grade (listed as 55cm) compares to a 56cm CAADX or SUPERX, and the only real difference I see is in reach, the angles are close enough as to not really make a noticeable difference in handling. There really is _*nothing *_new here.

Nope I take some of this back, the head tube angle is 2° slacker and the wheelbase is a bit longer. Its too bad GT doesn't list trail, but I suspect it will be a slow steering bike, not sure I would prefer that over a more Cross oriented geometry.


----------



## froze

92gli said:


> Anybody been able to order a carbon 105? Got a delivery date estimate?


The only thing I could find on Shimano website or on the internet that was carbon on the 105 component package was only the pedals, which probably means eventually 105 will go entirely carbon. If you can find a site yappin about an entirely 105 carbon component package I would like to read about it.

Keep in mind that in todays world durability for all companies components is the highest at the third tier and 2nd tier components levels where those two levels durability plateaus, it falls of dramatically at the 1st tier level due to finer precision, this is especially true with cassettes and chainrings.


----------



## Jseph-s

WheresWaldo said:


> I'm still not seeing it. A Medium Grade (listed as 55cm) compares to a 56cm CAADX or SUPERX, and the only real difference I see is in reach, the angles are close enough as to not really make a noticeable difference in handling. There really is _*nothing *_new here.
> 
> Nope I take some of this back, the head tube angle is 2° slacker and the wheelbase is a bit longer. Its too bad GT doesn't list trail, but I suspect it will be a slow steering bike, not sure I would prefer that over a more Cross oriented geometry.


I'm not claiming there is anything really new to the bike.

For me it seemed the ideal road bike to do long rides and mix it up with gravel roads to sneak away from traffic. 
The less agile geometry is common aspect for all so-called "endurance" bikes. These bikes claim to be more stable to give a more relaxing ride as opposed to an agile cross or race bike, that has the "tendency to change its cours every time you take your waterbottle from the frame".

But I agree with you, GT has made a bold statement. Not sure if it'll pay off.

But then again, people are talking about GT roadbikes again, so that's a start...


----------



## gadufan

I ordered my 105 Carbon xxl (60cm) in early November and got it early December. I think it was one of the last ones of the first run of them and so there might not be any until February or March but I don't really know. So far the bike has been fantastic!


----------



## mik_git

froze said:


> The only thing I could find on Shimano website or on the internet that was carbon on the 105 component package was only the pedals, which probably means eventually 105 will go entirely carbon. If you can find a site yappin about an entirely 105 carbon component package I would like to read about it.
> 
> Keep in mind that in todays world durability for all companies components is the highest at the third tier and 2nd tier components levels where those two levels durability plateaus, it falls of dramatically at the 1st tier level due to finer precision, this is especially true with cassettes and chainrings.


I think you'll find he's asking about a Carbon Grade with 105 level components, not a carbon 105 groupset...


----------



## 92gli

gadufan said:


> I ordered my 105 Carbon xxl (60cm) in early November and got it early December. I think it was one of the last ones of the first run of them and so there might not be any until February or March but I don't really know. So far the bike has been fantastic!


A local shop finally got back to me and said the same, February or march. Their price offer was $2699, no sales tax (Delaware).

I just saw that Wiggle has some in stock, would cost about $2600 shipped. But if I get charged duty then there is no savings advantage. It could end up costing me more. 



mik_git said:


> I think you'll find he's asking about a Carbon Grade with 105 level components, not a carbon 105 groupset...


Exactly. I thought that reply was from a spam bot at first.


----------



## geekjimmy

I'm not sure if I'd need a 53 or 55, so I'd love to find one in-stock somewhere to take one for a test ride. I'm loathe to buy one without verifying fit.


----------



## 92gli

Looking at the dimensions and comparing them to my past bikes, I'm pretty sure I want a small.

Looks like I'm gonna have to order through the local shop. I noticed a clause in GT's warranty terms that says any issues need to be submitted on the continent the bike was purchased from. If anything goes wrong with that frame, I'm not going to deal with shipping it back to the UK.


----------



## Ventruck

I'm looking for a new aluminum workhorse, and it's hard to deny the 105 and X models' worth. I could always find a way around stack and reach, just probably wouldn't be allowed into any UCI events (lol w/e)

My only real pooper is I literally just bought some new non-disc wheels and they're coming in the mail.


----------



## alexisfire02

Luxurious.Liquids said:


> That is just extra weight for aesthetics. I've talked to GT's rep, and they're trying real hard to get back into being seen as a real brand again like the 90's. (Instead of a big-box sell-out to Dick's Sporting Goods and such).


Ironically, I just heard from a Dicks manager that GT is going to start selling their bikes in Dicks...


----------



## froze

alexisfire02 said:


> Ironically, I just heard from a Dicks manager that GT is going to start selling their bikes in Dicks...


GT is not a brand, it is now just a decal slapped on by Dorel Industries which also owns the name rights to Schwinn, Mongoose, Guru, Sugoi, and now Cannondale. Anything that Dorel makes is low quality, and eventually Cannondale will follow suit.


----------



## 92gli

The local shop I spoke to a few weeks ago backed off of their claim that they could order one for me. I waited a few weeks for two different Performance store managers to get me an answer. No one called me back. I was getting pissed because I told everyone I contacted that I wanted them to take my damn money! 

Yesterday I saw that competitive cyclist had the alloy bikes in stock so I emailed them. Turns out they had a carbon 105 in my size that just came in. I'll have it in my hands on the 26th or 27th. Very psyched. 

They have more on order. Try them if you're looking for a carbon.


----------



## geekjimmy

check back in after some miles and let us know what you think about it!


----------



## geekjimmy

In case anyone cares, Competitive Cyclist's website shows they have the Grade Carbon Ultegra in stock in all sizes.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/g...hZGU6MToxOmd0IGdyYWRl&skidn=GTE000V-RAW-S51CM


----------



## 92gli

geekjimmy said:


> In case anyone cares, Competitive Cyclist's website shows they have the Grade Carbon Ultegra in stock in all sizes.
> 
> GT Grade Carbon Ultegra Complete Bike - 2015 | Competitive Cyclist


Damn. I never noticed that the ultegra model comes with DT 240s. That bike is a really great value. The competition in the low 3k range usually has no name hubs and mixed groups.


----------



## 92gli

Horrible phone pic minutes after unpacking. That's a 53 and its exactly 20lbs as you see it. I only rode it for 1/4 mile but it feels heavily damped and rolls kinda silently, but it jumps when you get up and hammer. Its exactly what I was looking for.










I have some parts from my old bike I'm going to swap on to it. I want to go tubeless and will probably go down to 25s. Rebuilding the wheels with DT240s, revos and black nipples will come later this year.


----------



## froze

92gli said:


> Horrible phone pic minutes after unpacking. That's a 53 and its exactly 20lbs as you see it. I only rode it for 1/4 mile but it feels heavily damped and rolls kinda silently, but it jumps when you get up and hammer. Its exactly what I was looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have some parts from my old bike I'm going to swap on to it. I want to go tubeless and will probably go down to 25s. Rebuilding the wheels with DT240s, revos and black nipples will come later this year.


Interesting frame design, I heard they went without the rear seat stays and it rode the same and thought about doing away with the seat stays entirely which is why they're so spindly looking because they don't do anything, it's the chain stays that are doing the whole thing, the only reason they left them on was due to UCI rules. I am surprised it weighs 20 pounds, I would have thought 16 to 17 max, maybe your scale is off?


----------



## mik_git

froze said:


> Interesting frame design, I heard they went without the rear seat stays and it rode the same and thought about doing away with the seat stays entirely which is why they're so spindly looking because they don't do anything, it's the chain stays that are doing the whole thing, the only reason they left them on was due to UCI rules. I am surprised it weighs 20 pounds, I would have thought 16 to 17 max, maybe your scale is off?


You realise that that bike would never meet the UCI rules as they sit right now whether it had seat stays or not...


----------



## 92gli

froze said:


> I am surprised it weighs 20 pounds, I would have thought 16 to 17 max, maybe your scale is off?


I think the scale is right. It has 28s on it with those really thick cheap tubes in them. Also has heavy formula mountain bike hubs. Someone said the ultegra model in large was 18.8 pounds IIRC.

The things that make this bike a bit porky are the exact reasons I bought it. So I'm good. My old bike is 17.5, but it beats me up and I'm not that confident descending on it.


----------



## MMsRepBike

froze said:


> Interesting frame design, I heard they went without the rear seat stays and it rode the same and thought about doing away with the seat stays entirely which is why they're so spindly looking because they don't do anything, it's the chain stays that are doing the whole thing, the only reason they left them on was due to UCI rules. I am surprised it weighs 20 pounds, I would have thought 16 to 17 max, maybe your scale is off?


I heard this exact thing from Cervelo years and years ago. In fact I've seen Cervelo bikes at their headquarters with the seat stays chopped off that they ride around.


----------



## jackmen

I don't exactly see what is the big deal about this bike. It looks like very similar to a 2015 Defy. The relaxed geometry and disks , even the frame very much resembles a current model defy, which is available in a multitude of builds for various prices.


If I was looking at one I would look at the defy also , and the defy's are more available with pricing that is more competitive. 

Looks like major marketing hype to me.


----------



## 92gli

jackmen said:


> If I was looking at one I would look at the defy also , and the defy's are more available with pricing that is more competitive.
> .


Wrong. The grade ultegra lists for 300 less than the defy advanced pro and adds DT 240 hubs, through axle fork and tubeless rims. The defy advanced one has the same list price as the grade 105 and has does not have the hydro brakes, through axle fork or tubesless rims. Its not marketing hype, just facts from a guy that studied every disc road bike in the 3k range over the last few months.


----------



## crit_boy

Contrary to above seatstay/UCI restriction opinions, per the Bike Rumor article (here provided by tlg in post #2), "There was absolutely no regard given to UCI design restrictions." 

On a totally different topic, the ultegra version comes with a Praxis PF30 adapter. Interesting that this "game changing" bike is manufactured with a press fit BB and sold with an adapter that changes it back to a threaded BB.


----------



## 92gli

The 105 has the praxis bb too. I'm happy to have it because I've experienced press fit creaking/clicking on one of my mountain bikes. This setup gives you a ton of options if you want to change the cranks at some point.


----------



## jackmen

92gli said:


> Wrong. The grade ultegra lists for 300 less than the defy advanced pro and adds DT 240 hubs, through axle fork and tubeless rims. The defy advanced one has the same list price as the grade 105 and has does not have the hydro brakes, through axle fork or tubesless rims. Its not marketing hype, just facts from a guy that studied every disc road bike in the 3k range over the last few months.



Sorry but it appears you are a little misinformed. Grade ultegra MSRP is $3580 and is nearly identically speced to The 2015 Defy Advanced Pro 1 has a list price of $3500.
The coomponenets are all ultergra on both bikes and even the same seat. Brakes are both Rs685 Hydraulic. Wheels being the only difference. The giant P-Sl 0 disc wheels can be ran tubeless like every wheel can with a strip of stans tape around the rim and a tubeless valve stem. I've ran three sets of road wheels with the stans tape (not claimed to be tubeless) and they all ran great. 

One other item is that the grade appears to be a real porker at somewhere between 19-20lbs, with the defy running about 2 lbs less. That is a lot of weight. 

The other difference appears to be the through axle on the Grade, but the jury is still out which is a better option here. I've been running a 29'er mountain bike with hydraulic discs for 5 years and have had no issues with convention non through hubs.

Not only does the large difference in weight swing things to the giant, but having a much larger dealer base and significant larger supply of bikes would equate to getting larger discounts from MSRP which are normally available from giant bikes. 

I have not ridden a grade but with nearly identical components, and geometry that is very similar, it would appear that the grade is a lot of marketing hype and a bike that is an endurance disc bike that is similarly priced and significantly heavier than competitive bikes in its class.


----------



## 92gli

Gt grade ultegra msrp - 2015 GT Grade Carbon ? Peloton
Or call competitive cyclist. Or look on their site and ponder why the price doesn't show a discount. I don't know what else to tell you. 

Why can't people who own or are waiting to get one of these bikes just have a thread about them without people crapping on the brand? Yeah, the thread has a stupid title. And GT promoted the crap out of the bike... Every bike company does HYPE when they have a new model line. So what?


----------



## jackmen

92gli said:


> Gt grade ultegra msrp - 2015 GT Grade Carbon ? Peloton
> Or call competitive cyclist. Or look on their site and ponder why the price doesn't show a discount. I don't know what else to tell you.
> 
> Why can't people who own or are waiting to get one of these bikes just have a thread about them without people crapping on the brand? Yeah, the thread has a stupid title. And GT promoted the crap out of the bike... Every bike company does HYPE when they have a new model line. So what?



You are correct these two locations show the Ultegra MRSP at 3299, but where i got the $3580 was from Gt's own website. 
EnduRoad - Road - Bikes.

Didn't crap on the bike at all just bring some reason to the statements that were made that it represent a marvelous deal better than any other endurance bike, NOT.

I'm sure its a great endurance geometry bike at a good value but it is not radically different or it is not going to change the industry. That is a hype statement that needed to be dispelled with facts. 

It is a an endurance geometry framed bike with ultegra components that is competitively priced with others in this category, but its considerably heavier.

No crap, just facts based on a realistic comparison of components of the bike.


----------



## 92gli

Well, most of that weight is in their choice to do 28 spoke wheels with low grade mountain bike hubs. Appropriate for occasional trail use but not really what I will be using it for. As I mentioned, I'll be doing something with the wheels later in the year once the wife forgets I bought the bike.

They also made a choice to make the frame and fork with caliper mounts that won't take anything less than 160 rotors. That choice I like because the weight saved between 140 and 160 isn't worth the reduction in power IMO. That said - these shimano ice tech rotors are very nice, but they are porky. I can get something much lighter and get all of the money back by selling the shimano rotors on ebay.

Did some part swapping today and had a good result -
-Added my speedplay zero chromoly pedals
-Switched the 110mm stock stem for a 90mm bontrager rxl with ti bolts
-Switch the saddle to a specialized avatar expert
-Switched the alloy steerer spacers to carbon
-Switched the caliper bolts to ti
-Swiched the tires to 23mm hutchinson atom comps with performance ultralight tubes (That was a 480g difference. The stock tubes are 130g each. The stock continental tires are wire bead and 420g. I figured they would be the folding version and I'd be able to sell them. These things are nearly worthless and too big to ship economically. Kinda pissed about that.)
-Added 2 specialized bottle cages and a cateye wireless computer

Now its at 19.2 Lbs. 

Tubeless Schwalbe ones in 25mm are on the way.


----------



## jackmen

Is yours the ultra or the 105 version? The bike looks really nice. Quite stealth looking.
I can't get over how heavy the thing is though. 

In contrast my defy advanced 0 weighs in at M/L size right at 16.5 stock everything except I have 1500 gram 25 x 40 carbon clinchers that I am running with Schwalbe one 25s tubeless with sealant.


----------



## 92gli

Never mind...


----------



## Jseph-s

What is the weight of the standard 105 wheels???

Can`t imagine they are that much heavier than the 240 wheels? Based on the spec I expect the biggest weight saving in converting them to tubeless and different tires.
Had a set of Bontrager wheels on my Mountainbike, also with Formula hubs. The weight of the hub was the least of my problems...


----------



## 92gli

Didnt ask if you think I should be happy with the formula hubs. I like nice hubs. End of story.

Posting here is like being constantly scolded by a teacher. No wonder there is so much less activity compared to mtbr.


----------



## Jseph-s

92gli said:


> Didnt ask if you think I should be happy with the formula hubs. I like nice hubs. End of story.
> 
> Posting here is like being constantly scolded by a teacher. No wonder there is so much less activity compared to mtbr.


Sorry, wasn't trying to insult you. I like nice hubs as well. I was only surprised that the stock wheels were that heavy that you are considering to change them right away. Thought changing the tires at first would be enough to reach a reasonable wheight for the wheels.

I got an 26" MTB wheelset with 240s as a spare, was allready thinking of swaping the hubs at some point, they need to be overhauled and converted to 11spd and 15mm first.


----------



## cbj

Nice bikes the Carbon 105 looks really good. I trying to get the Ultegra Carbon and there are clearly a lot of way to make it lighter. I am going to focus on lighter crankset, carbon bar and thinking about a carbon wheelset.

Since you don't have to worry about break track quality I think a pair Light Bicycles U shaped 35mm rims could be build into something really nice but I want to see how the stock wheels preform first.

My plan is to use the bike for dual purpose ie commuting to work and then more standard road riding in the evening and longer trips on the weekend.


----------



## 92gli

I was considering going with light bikes rims. I have them on my mountain bike and while they are everything I wanted in terms of stiffness, I have had a lot of issues with tire burping, even with bontrager rim strips. So, I'm going to stick with the stans rims for now. Tire sealing is my most important concern with rims for this bike. 

I bought a set of dt350s and revolution spokes are on the way. I just need the qr end caps for the rear hub and I can get started.


----------



## froze

92gli said:


> I was considering going with light bikes rims. I have them on my mountain bike and while they are everything I wanted in terms of stiffness, I have had a lot of issues with tire burping, even with bontrager rim strips. So, I'm going to stick with the stans rims for now. Tire sealing is my most important concern with rims for this bike.
> 
> I bought a set of dt350s and revolution spokes are on the way. I just need the qr end caps for the rear hub and I can get started.


I'm assuming with the spoke choice that you're not riding off road? And I'm assuming this is a higher spoke per wheel count like 32 to 36? And I'm assuming you don't weigh much? And I'm assuming this bike doesn't have disk brakes?

If most of that isn't true than Revolution spokes could cause you problems. I would have gone with DT Super Comp triple butted spokes, or at the very least DT Competition dble butted spokes for durability and long term reliability. Revolution spokes were designed to make a lightweight road rim, not to be used off road with low spoke count wheels with or without disk brakes and or a moderately to more heavy rider.

If you go ahead and use those Rev spokes be careful of spoke wind up during build and during truing sessions afterwards.


----------



## 92gli

I'm content with the choice of revos for 28 spoke disk road with 3x lacing. I've built my current mountain wheels with them and haven't taken a spoke wrench to them yet (18 months so far). I take my time and use spoke prep liberally.


----------



## cbj

Zipp carbon 303 clinchers run 2x and 24 spokes. These are used for cross racing.

If you want light spokes CX Rays are DH rated but still super light.

Thus plenty of options to build much lighter wheels then what comes standard even on the Ultegra version with the 240 hubs.

Of course if you are a super heavy you might want to go for a stronger build.

As I see it what as mentioned would be cool to keep the Stans wheelset for off road and commuting and then build a lighter more aero wheel for weekend road rides. Since I have not ridden a bike or the wheelset this is still just speculations 

A shame this thread has that title 92gli you should really open a GT Grade thread with your bike where potential and current owners can discuss the bike. There is not much information online besides the reviews which all say the same.


----------



## metoou2

92gli said:


> Didnt ask if you think I should be happy with the formula hubs. I like nice hubs. End of story.
> 
> Posting here is like being constantly scolded by a teacher. No wonder there is so much less activity compared to mtbr.


Alright! that's it, go to your room and think about what you said.


----------



## Appendage

*Ordered a Grade Ultegra from CC*

I've been scouring the web for a Grade Ultegra and finally ordered one from Competitive Cyclist. They won't get any until sometime around mid April. Even then, they'll only get seven in my size- 56cm (at least three of which are already sold!). Evans Cycles shows an in-stock date of 3/31, but who knows what that actually means. Maybe the boat gets to the UK sooner.

I was hoping to get it sooner because I have a couple gravel races coming up, but it ain't gonna happen. I was thinking of getting a Norco Search instead, which is available now from Evans at a really good price. But I like the slack head angle of the GT, plus it has nicer wheels.


----------



## cbj

I think ordering in EU and US is separate from each other.

I have the same info about US deliveries ie mid April and hope to get one in April if there are any left to buy.

With you Appendage the wheels on the GT are super nice.


----------



## atpjunkie

Notvintage said:


> Internal cables suck. Even more so with mechanical shifting.


plus they allow more places for water intrusion into the frame
not a good idea on an all-terrain, all weather bike

but some folks prefer fashion over form


----------



## Appendage

cbj, if you order from CC now, they'll reserve one for you they get their allotment. At least that's what they told me. I just checked the order status: *BACKORDERED
Estimated Arrival: Apr 29, 2015.* Gawd, it's killing me.


----------



## cbj

I am not in a hurry I have plenty of bikes to ride and I am sure the Grade is not going away anytime soon. I never sell a bike before I have the replacement.


----------



## 92gli

If you have or are getting a Grade, make sure the drive side cup of the BB is flush with the frame. If its not, it wasn't installed correctly at the factory. I noticed mine was sticking out a bit while playing around with the bike on the stand. (still haven't really ridden it thanks to the horrible weather) 

The praxis BB requires two BB tools and some considerable strength to get it seated properly. When you think its tight enough, it's not. Your selling dealer will need to check it. I did tell CC about it, so hopefully they will be addressing it before shipping from now on. 

Finally got the qr end caps for the dt 350 road rear hub. I'll post some more info after I'm done rebuilding the wheels.


----------



## Appendage

*Evans just moved their Grade Carbon availability date to June!*

Cricky! Evans Cycles just pushed back the Carbon Ultegra availability date to 6/4/15! I just checked with CC and at this point they're sticking with April 29 delivery.


----------



## Jseph-s

Mmm, haven't heard anything from my dealer yet, the bike should be here (the Netherlands) at the end of February. So I'm guessing it is gonna be pushed back as well. 
Better pop in next week and see what's what.


----------



## 92gli

Had a snow day Thursday and got to build both wheels. I cancelled the revos and tried Sapim lasers for the first time, everything went surprisingly well. They needed very little truing as I brought up the tension. The dt front hub was actually 3g heavier than the formula one, but as I expected the rear hub was a big difference - 125g. The total savings was a little over 200g. But more importantly, the OEM wheels were typically built like crap. The tensions were so high on a few of the spokes I stripped the nipples when I was taking the wheels apart, while others were fairly loose. And the spokes were a mix of 7 different lengths. Machine built wheels just suck.

The 105 cassette is pretty porky - 313g. I'm switching that out for an ultegra 11-28, which should save another 4 ounces or so. I don't need a 32t cog anyway, I'd rather have the tighter spacing in the middle of the cassette. 

The vendor I bought tubeless schwalbe ones sent me 23s instead of the 25s I ordered, so I returned those and got bontrager R2 tires instead. They mounted up to the grail rims like butter and hold pressure perfectly, even without the sealant put in yet. 

All the ice and snow will be gone in the next few days so I'll finally be able to put some miles on it.


----------



## born_hard

Hi, 

i `m very interested in ths GT Grade but I´ve read some reviews where for chattering was an issue during braking at low speeds. GT Grade Carbon Ultegra Complete Bike - 2015 | Backcountry.com

Is this still a problem on the series bikes? Have you those of you who bought or ride this bike also have similar experiences? Thanks


----------



## 92gli

I like how the one guy on backcountry.com posts a 2 star "review" and he doesn't even own one.
I've only done one extremely short test ride to this point, but I didn't feel anything during some real hard stops to bed in the brake pads. 
Everything is melting here and with the clocks rolled forward I should be able to do a 15-20 mile ride after work this week. I have a couple long back road descents that I will make sure to hit and I'll report honestly. I have faith there's no issue but GT will never hear the end of me if there is.


----------



## pssyche

born_hard said:


> Hi,
> 
> i `m very interested in ths GT Grade but I´ve read some reviews where for chattering was an issue during braking at low speeds. GT Grade Carbon Ultegra Complete Bike - 2015 | Backcountry.com
> 
> Is this still a problem on the series bikes? Have you those of you who bought or ride this bike also have similar experiences? Thanks


Unfortunately, I can confirm that there is chattering while hard braking at low speed, although I have AL 105 model that has QR fork. I was fiddling with headset preload adjustment, QR, and hoping it might get better when brakes bed in, so this is definitely not a good news. Oh well, love the bike anyway.


----------



## cbj

What is it that is chattering?


----------



## pssyche

By chattering I mean noticeable fork vibration when applying full force on front brake, it's more pronounced at lower speeds. I was thinking it might be brakes setup, some loose bolt or issues with pads or rotor, but I'm pretty disappointed if it is indeed a fork.


----------



## CrankyCarbon

GT has certainly grown up. I'm familiar with them from the 1980's and the BMX boom and their nice Titamium MTBs in the 90's.
Are they now owned by a big bike company.


----------



## 92gli

Shimano hydros do have a somewhat loose pad fit. The ones on my mountain bike rattled a little when they were new. After getting a little "gunked up" it just stopped. I wonder if that has something to do with it? I kinda doubt the forks would flex enough to produce a notable shimmy.


----------



## pssyche

I hope that might be the case, I did find some reports on similar issues people had with HY-RD brakes that went away with time. Since this is my first road bike I did a lot of reading prior buying it, and all reviews were totally positive without anyone mentioning fork problems, plus I really dig the looks of AL 105 (yeah I know I'm one of the few who likes camo bar tape and decals ).


----------



## Appendage

Is there a distinction between "chatter" and "noise"? Chatter/noise would be unacceptable on smooth surfaces, but I wouldn't be surprised if bikes similar to the Grade all chatter under heavy front braking on a rough surface. Given a low or medium volume tire and rigid fork, it's going to make noise as that front wheel plows into bumps at speed with the brake on. If fact, I'l be very pleasantly surprised if it wasn't noisy.


----------



## pssyche

It isn't audible noise, it's feeling of vibration through the fork. It's not noticeable when lowering speed while riding, but most pronounced when coming to a stop.


----------



## Appendage

A friend of mine has a Volagi with a carbon fork and Spyre TRP discs. Same deal. I think when you put a powerful disc brake at the end of two spindly carbon composite fork legs, you're going to get vibration, especially when the fork is designed to be "compliant". I know a few guys with disc-brake road bikes- I should conduct an informal survey.


----------



## 92gli

In the case of the grade carbon, it's not spindly and it has a 15mm axle. Again, I'm not even speaking from experience yet, but I suspect it has more to do with brake pads or rotor than the fork. 

On an unrelated note, with some sealant installed my bontrager R2 tires on the grail rims are holding steady at 90psi for over two days now, which makes me very happy.


----------



## 92gli

Minutes before take off on the maiden voyage -









Did a short out and back 18 miles tonight. Road had some long descents and many traffic lights along the way. For the first 8 miles I tested the front brake with a variety of different pressures on the lever and I'm happy to report that I didn't feel any vibration. 

HOWEVER...

As I was approaching my turn around point I was stopping at a light and noticed a massive decrease in stopping power followed by a howling from the front brake that would shatter glass. My front caliper pissed mineral oil all over the pads and the rotor. This sort of thing is the exact opposite of my experience with these same calipers in XT form that I've been running on my mountain bikes for almost 3 years. Looks like I'll be making a call to competitive cyclist tomorrow...

Everything else was fantastic though.


----------



## Jseph-s

Had a call from my dealer yesterday, my grade should be in on Tuesday, pick-up planned for Friday. So hope to share the my first ride experience with you guys next week!


----------



## davidka

aclinjury said:


> That's nonsense. Europe is the leader in carbon fiber application. Look no further than Formula 1. All the latest supercars with the latest application of carbon fiber and tech wizardary are from Europe.
> .


There is considerably more carbon "wizardry" in our bicycles than in automotive applications. F1 cars are small batch custom shop things where carbon is used because it's lighter than fiberglass. The repetition of a production environment (and liability to 1,000's of paying customers) drive innovation much farther.



froze said:


> GT is not a brand, it is now just a decal slapped on by Dorel Industries which also owns the name rights to Schwinn, Mongoose, Guru, Sugoi, and now Cannondale. Anything that Dorel makes is low quality, and eventually Cannondale will follow suit.


Utter nonsense. There are designers, engineers, product and brand managers who oversee the development of all of those brands, just the same as your favorite bike company has. Many of them live in my city (not in Canada, where Dorel is) where I ride and race with them. Dorel owns those brands but has very little to do with what is actually made.


----------



## Jseph-s

davidka said:


> Utter nonsense. There are designers, engineers, product and brand managers who oversee the development of all of those brands, just the same as your favorite bike company has. Many of them live in my city (not in Canada, where Dorel is) where I ride and race with them. Dorel owns those brands but has very little to do with what is actually made.


I Agree, but to certain extent one could argue whether or not the definition of "real-brand" still exists. 
In one way or another most bikes of the major manufacturers are produced by sub-contractors, in house produced bikes are pretty rare to find in this price-range. 
For me GT is still "building", or better designing, their own bikes. They still have an unique design with their trademark features. Only nowadays these bikes are probably produced in the same Asian factory as Cannondales, Schwinns and maybe Treks, Specialized or even Bianchi or Pinarello...

If you stick by the definition that a "Real Bicycle Brand" develops, designs, and builds their bikes in-house (from scratch), the only "real brands" that are left are the independent frame-builders and Giant...


----------



## Shuffleman

Jseph-s said:


> I Agree, but to certain extent one could argue whether or not the definition of "real-brand" still exists.
> In one way or another most bikes of the major manufacturers are produced by sub-contractors, in house produced bikes are pretty rare to find in this price-range.
> For me GT is still "building", or better designing, their own bikes. They still have an unique design with their trademark features. Only nowadays these bikes are probably produced in the same Asian factory as Cannondales, Schwinns and maybe Treks, Specialized or even Bianchi or Pinarello...
> 
> If you stick by the definition that a "Real Bicycle Brand" develops, designs, and builds their bikes in-house (from scratch), the only "real brands" that are left are the independent frame-builders and Giant...


I think that you are both correct to an extent. I do believe that the brands owned by these large companies tend to sell more bikes but they do suffer in other ways. There is no question that in the 80's and 90's GT was a huge name in mtb and bmx. They built excellent quality bikes that people admired. I remember GT, Klein, Gary Fisher and Cannondale as all being great bikes. When the Co-founder, Richard Long, died the company started its fall. The sale to Pacifica and now Dorel left it in a big box tail spin. The same thing happened to Schwinn. Growing up Schwinn and Raleigh were higher end bikes, not big box bikes. The vision of the new ownership changed from the vision of the previous owners. It is sad. It seems like GT is getting better again but their brand is severely damaged. Cannondale has not suffered that same fate yet but I tend to think that it will given time. 
There is simply the matter of selling more bikes. That is what the big companies want. That is their right. If they can sell far more bikes through big box stores they tend not to care about hard core folks. As much as we all hate it, it is what occurs. I have always ridden GT mtb's since 1990. I still have one and ride it often. I love it. Marriage and a move took me away from biking for years. When I reentered as a road biker I went to GT first. I was amazed that there were none at the LBS. I did some research and painfully switched to another brand, Felt and then Colnago. I did buy a GT Hybrid but it is not the same. I recently got back into mtb and it was hard but I made the switch to Giant. I am brand loyal but their bikes just do not have the same soul. They are ugly and have cheap looking paint jobs.


----------



## davidka

Jseph-s said:


> I Agree, but to certain extent one could argue whether or not the definition of "real-brand" still exists.
> 
> 
> If you stick by the definition that a "Real Bicycle Brand" develops, designs, and builds their bikes in-house (from scratch), the only "real brands" that are left are the independent frame-builders and Giant...


 These points expose the fact that there is an important difference between "brand" and "manufacturer". You clearly value a brand that manufactures on their own ("Real Bicycle Brand") , which is certainly worthwhile. It has just become financially challenging in modern times for growth oriented manufacturers. Trek also builds their highest end carbon bikes in house. There is still an ongoing debate here, "Does Trek make good bikes?". 

The truth is, they are all real brands. They all have a focus and goals. That some of them aren't concerned with us low volume enthusiasts doesn't diminish that. If box store bikes create more new, enthusiastic cyclists then so be it. There will be other brands waiting for them when they look for a bike more focused at their needs down the road.


----------



## froze

davidka said:


> There is considerably more carbon "wizardry" in our bicycles than in automotive applications. F1 cars are small batch custom shop things where carbon is used because it's lighter than fiberglass. The repetition of a production environment (and liability to 1,000's of paying customers) drive innovation much farther.
> 
> 
> 
> Utter nonsense. There are designers, engineers, product and brand managers who oversee the development of all of those brands, just the same as your favorite bike company has. Many of them live in my city (not in Canada, where Dorel is) where I ride and race with them. Dorel owns those brands but has very little to do with what is actually made.


Yup, and Schwinn, Mongoose, and Guru, are such top notch brands to buy.


----------



## davidka

froze said:


> Yup, and Schwinn, Mongoose, and Guru, are such top notch brands to buy.


 They are all pretty competitive in the markets they choose to compete in and they're very good products, just maybe not for *you*.


----------



## 92gli

U


froze said:


> Yup, and Schwinn, Mongoose, and Guru, are such top notch brands to buy.


No one cares what brands you find acceptable. Please go troll elsewhere. 

An update on my brake caliper leak - competitive cyclist is overnighting me a caliper, pads and fluid so I'll be back on the road by the weekend.


----------



## cbj

Agree irrelevant discussion for this thread and I could not care personally.

Cool on the support from CC that is pretty badass.


----------



## nhluhr

92gli said:


> U
> 
> No one cares what brands you find acceptable. Please go troll elsewhere.
> 
> An update on my brake caliper leak - competitive cyclist is overnighting me a caliper, pads and fluid so I'll be back on the road by the weekend.


Are they sending you a bleed kit too?


----------



## 92gli

nhluhr said:


> Are they sending you a bleed kit too?


The Shimano "kit" is just the fluid and a tube, which is what they sent. I have a large syringe that i use as the funnel for the lever side of the equation when I've bled the ones on my mtb.


----------



## Jseph-s

Glad to hear your problem is solved!

I spoke my lbs today, the bike has arrived. Couldn't make it to the shop today, so I'll pick it up tomorrow, can't wait!


----------



## Jseph-s

Picked up my bike this afternoon, just got home after a quick ride. 

First, @92gli, I now know what you mean with those wheels. In comparison to my old road bike these wheels are quite hefty. These tires and tubes will have to be changed, you absolutely feel their weight every time you accelerate. 

But everything else, wow, what a bike. Took it for a short bit offroad, it was flying along those gravel tracks, even on MTB single tracks it didn't feel all that much out of place. The bike kept on pushing and taking every bit of technical track I could find. I couldn't stop smiling while riding it. 
After the short ride I had the feeling it matches it's expectation. A road bike you can take offroad, for me the ideal bike next to my mountainbikes. I am looking forward to take this bikes on some long rides, far away the congested roads filled with cars and bike tourists


----------



## Jseph-s

Oh almost forgot... Pictures!


----------



## masont

I don't think this one bike will change the industry given the amount of bikes other manufacturers are introducing that are similar, but that's a hell of a spec for the price on a cool looking bike.


----------



## Jseph-s

Took the grade for its first long ride this morning. It started out as a quite normal road ride. Averaging about 30km/h on the Tarmac, with a bike that took the impact of potholes and speed bumps, 
After some 20km I decided to take a gravel road that leads up to some mtb-single tracks in a Forrest. The gravel road was great fun to ride, passed some mtb-riders along the way, the grade was just flying over that track. 
The gravel road gave me the confidence to take the bike up the singletracks as well. These are some flowing and twisting tracks, mostly covered in mud. There are no real drops, the most technical are some tree roots on some parts. It was great fun to ride these tracks and the grade really behaved very well. Of course a full blown MTB would be faster, but the grade was no snail either.








Only downside are the standard tires, in the mud they just lack the grip, so you have to be careful as the bike tends to slide a lot. And on some occasions I found the limits to the grip, nothing serious, just dust off and get on.








In the end the Tarmac was only used to take the quickest route to the next gravel section. The bike is such great fun to ride, can't wait for the next ride!


----------



## pssyche

After two months and a bit over 1000 km, one of the spokes on my rear wheel just snapped . That got me thinking about getting another wheelset. Since I'm a bit low on cash atm and there is not much choice of road disc wheels yet anyway, I was considering these. Would they be enough of an upgrade over stock wheels, or should I just replace the spokes if they keep popping and save up for better set?


----------



## Appendage

I'd take 'em to your local wheel guy, have 'em replace the spokes, and check/tweak the tension on both wheels. That'll buy you time while you stuff your piggy bank with pennies for your dream wheelset.


----------



## 92gli

If the front hub isnt convertible to 15mm you're out of luck anyway. 

Not surprised you broke a spoke. The tensions of my original back wheel were all over the place. Really bad machine builds. 

On another note, one thing I've really grown to love is the flare of the handlebars. It makes it much more comfortable for me to ride in the drops. Wish i tried bars like that a long time ago.


----------



## pssyche

Actually mine is aluminium model with QRs on both ends, so it's a bit easier to match wheels. Anyway, bike is in service atm, for now they will replace broken spoke and check the tensions and will see how it goes. I have to agree about handlebars, I have never ridden a road bike before but I find it very comfortable, probably ride in drops 60-70% of time.


----------



## cbj

Just ordered a Carbon 105. Decided to keep my road bike (DA quipped Specialized Roubaix) and the Grade will be my commuter and winter bike.


----------



## sandbagger

Just received my carbon 105. Weight w/o pedals is a pretty hefty 19.5 lbs. I suspect most of that is from the wheels/tires. Planning on having some carbon tubeless wheels built up, which along with running tubeless tires should drop at least 2 lbs. Should be able to drop another pound by replacing a few other bits. Will keep the Grails and put some tubeless CX tires on them for off-road duty.

I also have a Roubaix DA, but would like to replace it with this entirely, as keeping it would put me at S-1


----------



## cbj

I have the same setup with a S-works SL3 DA Roubaix. However I am keeping the Roubaix as my dedicated road bike and using the Grade as my daily commuter and winter bike so I am not super concerned with the weight. I have already made some changes and will later go tubeless and I am shopping for a new bar too.

Can get the Facebook picture link to work with the tags but here is the link

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153231651306223&l=88b628aa5d


----------



## Peanya

Wow, I go away from the forums for a while and look what happened to this post!

It seems much of my point was misunderstood. In "change the industry", I mean that there is now available road bikes for the "normal guy". Someone who wants to ride fast, but also wants comfort. Someone who might take a dirt path without concern. Sure, there will always be a market for race-oriented road bikes, but I can see how the vast majority of us would be better suited on a bike of this type.

Before this came along, you primarily had race, relaxed geometry (albeit very close to race), and flat bar road bikes to choose from. I'd be happy to give up my 16.5lb BMC Road Racer for one of these! I am, however, smitten with the Niner RLT too. 

And Froze, have you ridden this bike, to give a fair opinion of it? I haven't, but sure want to give it a try. As it seems, it's really what I've had in my mind long before this bike was even introduced.


----------



## Opus51569

I like the look of the carbon, but those thin stays would scare the crap out of me as a Clyde.

I'd feel better with the alloy option, but jeebus those are some awful looking welds. Good price point, though.


----------



## Peanya

They are fiberglass filled. Added strength, but also added weight. 


Opus51569 said:


> I like the look of the carbon, but those thin stays would scare the crap out of me as a Clyde.
> 
> I'd feel better with the alloy option, but jeebus those are some awful looking welds. Good price point, though.


----------



## froze

Peanya said:


> Wow, I go away from the forums for a while and look what happened to this post!
> 
> It seems much of my point was misunderstood. In "change the industry", I mean that there is now available road bikes for the "normal guy". Someone who wants to ride fast, but also wants comfort. Someone who might take a dirt path without concern. Sure, there will always be a market for race-oriented road bikes, but I can see how the vast majority of us would be better suited on a bike of this type.
> 
> Before this came along, you primarily had race, relaxed geometry (albeit very close to race), and flat bar road bikes to choose from. I'd be happy to give up my 16.5lb BMC Road Racer for one of these! I am, however, smitten with the Niner RLT too.
> 
> And Froze, have you ridden this bike, to give a fair opinion of it? I haven't, but sure want to give it a try. As it seems, it's really what I've had in my mind long before this bike was even introduced.


Which bike are you talking about? I never said I rode a BMC. I went back through all the posts and can't find which bike you're speaking of, so refresh my pea brain please.


----------



## MMsRepBike

froze said:


> Which bike are you talking about? I never said I rode a BMC. I went back through all the posts and can't find which bike you're speaking of, so refresh my pea brain please.


Maybe you haven't had your coffee yet?

My means possession which means it's his and not yours. The BMC belongs to him. He wants to know if you've ridden the topic of the thread, the Grade. The bike he's speaking of is in the title of the thread, you don't have to look hard to find it.


----------



## froze

MMsRepBike said:


> Maybe you haven't had your coffee yet?
> 
> My means possession which means it's his and not yours. The BMC belongs to him. He wants to know if you've ridden the topic of the thread, the Grade. The bike he's speaking of is in the title of the thread, you don't have to look hard to find it.


I have not ridden the Grade nor plan on it since I have no desire to own one due to being built by Dorel, yes I know, it's Dorels best bike, yabba yabba yabba.


----------



## cbj

Wow this took a crappy turn. If you don't have anything interesting to say why bother.

The frame rides so well. 28s on the rims seems like a really good match. I am still working on air pressure.


----------



## Jseph-s

I´m running the 28mm Hutchinson Sector tires on mine, still running the stock wheels. Used a bit of gorilla tape to get the grails ready for the tubeless setup. 
At the moment I don´t feel the need to change the hubs right away. Quite some weight was lost by simply changing out the tires. The bike feels a lot more responsive now. 

The tubeless setup works very well, had a small cut in the rear tire three weeks ago. The cut closed up right away, only a little bit of latex sprayed out. Since then I´ve done about 400kms on the tire (on and off-road), and it is still holding up.

Still very happy with the bike, it is (for me) the ideal bike to do those nice all day 100+km road-rides. 
The most appealing aspect of the bike is it´s versatility. On a "normal-road-ride" I have no problem keeping up with my friends on more "hard-core" road bikes (Madones and such). And still I am able to take the bike off-road and ride the less crowed gravel or Forrest roads. Or even take the bike off road and ride those nice technical single-tracks around here.


----------



## cbj

I think if you really want to save weight on the wheelset you need to get everything changed out and go to carbon rims with fewer spokes too. Personally I am looking for more durability so the setup is perfect for me. Tubeless will be nice though and will also loose weight where it really matters without compromising durability actually I think it will improve it and improve the ride.

On a different not I have purchased 3T ARX stem and Ergonova bar. The stock stem was too long for me and the bar to wide. Not sure I am in love with the stock bar shape either.


----------



## sandbagger

Finally got mine and went out for a 2-hour road ride. I swapped the stock 28s out for some 23s, which may have been a mistake, as I flatted both front and rear during the ride. It is really hard to seat narrow tubed tires on those rims properly.

My first impressions were that the frame was incredibly compliant. I have a suspension post on my Roubaix, and the Grade felt just as comfy with the stock post. In spite of this, it still managed to feel responsive during standing climbs, and I didn't have any issues keeping with a fast group on the road. I like the shape of the bars, but unfortunately they cause the brake hoods to be tilted inwards, which can make for some sore wrists on long rides. They are a little buzzy also. Will probably swap these out for some carbons. I am going to have light-bicycle.com build up a carbon wheelset. ~ 1250 grams for the set and they can run tubeless road tires. This should bring it down to ~ 17.5 lbs w/o pedals. Will put some gravel tires on the Grails and use them for adventure rides.


----------



## cbj

Show us some pictures of the LB wheelset when you get it. Do they offer center lock hubs? What will you pay for the wheelset and which rim did you choose?

Isn't even the pros moving to 25c and gaining lower rolling resistance?


----------



## sandbagger

Might be awhile before I get those built. Here is a link to the wheelset:
carbon 24mm wheel road bike 700c clincher Light-Bicycle
I am going to have to ship them some hubs since they do not have any 24-hole disk hubs that take a thru axle. Will probably use these:
MTB270 Rear Disk/MTB Hub - 24/28/32h - QR or 12mm Thru Axle
MTB180 Front Disc Hub - QR or 15mm/20mm Thru Axle
Will go with some 25c tubeless tires on these.


----------



## 92gli

Hit 700 miles on mine today at lunch time. Really love it. 

It does tend to catch crosswinds pretty good though. Not sure if thats due to the frame, the discs or both. I'm continuing to get used to it. 

I said before that I loved the bars because of the flare, but I'm beginning to hate them because they dont have flat tops. Might switch to the FSA bars I have in my stash. It appears the only bars on the market that have some flare AND flat tops are very expensive carbon bars. 

The bontrager tires have been working great for me at 80psi. They lose virtually no air between rides. Way less leak down than tubes.


----------



## 92gli

Got rid of the flared bars and went back to the wing pro compacts. My wrists are thanking me. 
In the process, I learned why my rear shifting to smaller cogs was sluggish. The shifting cables exit the disc brake levers further away from the bars. If your bar tape is too tight, it will pull the cable ferrule sideways where it exits the hood and cause some binding. You can either stick something in that gap to provide stability or wrap your tape a little loosely around the lever mount.


----------



## heybrady

92gli said:


> I said before that I loved the bars because of the flare, but I'm beginning to hate them because they dont have flat tops. Might switch to the FSA bars I have in my stash. It appears the only bars on the market that have some flare AND flat tops are very expensive carbon bars.


Check these out. $14 plus some new tape and you have flat tops. Have them on my CAAD and love it. 

Specialized Bicycle Components


----------



## cbj

Not a bad idea from Specialized. I had to switch out the bar as the stock bar was way too wide for me and it much nicer to have the same bare on both my road bikes.

Was involved in an accident Thursday where a cabbie opened his door right into the bike lane. I have not had a chance to get the bike checked out yet but I hope the frame is okay. I think it was more mere than the the bike that took most of the hit but I don't remember the details.


----------



## froze

cbj said:


> Not a bad idea from Specialized. I had to switch out the bar as the stock bar was way too wide for me and it much nicer to have the same bare on both my road bikes.
> 
> Was involved in an accident Thursday where a cabbie opened his door right into the bike lane. I have not had a chance to get the bike checked out yet but I hope the frame is okay. I think it was more mere than the the bike that took most of the hit but I don't remember the details.


I hope you're ok.


----------



## Jseph-s

Hope you are ok, get well soon.

Make sure your frame is properly inspected, had a problem once with a carbon (mountain bike) frame after a crash. Initially the Bike shop said the bike was OK, so no insurance claim was issued. 
But after a year small cracks appeared by the headset, ended up buying a new frame, I still think these cracks were related to the crash the frame had.


----------



## cbj

Jseph-s said:


> Hope you are ok, get well soon.
> 
> Make sure your frame is properly inspected, had a problem once with a carbon (mountain bike) frame after a crash. Initially the Bike shop said the bike was OK, so no insurance claim was issued.
> But after a year small cracks appeared by the headset, ended up buying a new frame, I still think these cracks were related to the crash the frame had.


Totally agree you have to be super careful with carbon frames. I have a good mechanic and will have him give a good inspection.

Doing much better this week. Sore finger and some stiff neck muscles. Waiting for final x-rays and some PT later in the week.


----------



## sandbagger

92gli said:


> In the case of the grade carbon, it's not spindly and it has a 15mm axle. Again, I'm not even speaking from experience yet, but I suspect it has more to do with brake pads or rotor than the fork.
> 
> On an unrelated note, with some sealant installed my bontrager R2 tires on the grail rims are holding steady at 90psi for over two days now, which makes me very happy.


I have been getting the front end vibration on mine as well. I could clearly see the fork deflecting back and forth at the axle when this happened. I have a rigid carbon MTB with discs and street tires that does not do this, but the fork on it is massive compared to the Grade. Not sure what the fix for this would be?


----------



## sandbagger

A shot of my Grade at the old Air Station on top of Mt. Tam in Marin County. Had to ride through that fog bank to get up there. Nice reward, though!


----------



## pssyche

sandbagger said:


> I have been getting the front end vibration on mine as well. I could clearly see the fork deflecting back and forth at the axle when this happened. I have a rigid carbon MTB with discs and street tires that does not do this, but the fork on it is massive compared to the Grade. Not sure what the fix for this would be?


Which model do you have? I suspect on mine stock TRP rotors might be causing it. Today I switched front and back rotor, cleaned the pads with sandpaper, and noticed quite an improvement on the front, but the back does vibrate a bit now. My next step will probably be switching to some Shimano rotors.


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## Appendage

FWIW, my TRP rotors caused lots of vibration. Replaced them with Avid and everything's cool now.


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## sandbagger

I have the 105 Grade w/ Shimano center-lock rotors.


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## cbj

Might be the brakes not the fork then. I have experimented with letting go of the brakes when it happens and it stops right away and I can reapply and brake without a problem.


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## ThomasB

Hi Guys, i'm new to the forum. I am looking into the GT Grade Carbon 105. Read the reviews and the forum and I am really thinking about buying one. I will test ride one at the end of the week.

I really like the bike but I am doubting between the 58(XL) and the 60(XXL). Can share his or her measurements and the bike size of course? I am 188 CM with an inseam of around 88-89 CM. Thanks in advance! (BTW i now have a Trek Madone 5.2 in size 60)

And proud pictures will be posted upon buying one!


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## cbj

ThomasB said:


> Hi Guys, i'm new to the forum. I am looking into the GT Grade Carbon 105. Read the reviews and the forum and I am really thinking about buying one. I will test ride one at the end of the week.
> 
> I really like the bike but I am doubting between the 58(XL) and the 60(XXL). Can share his or her measurements and the bike size of course? I am 188 CM with an inseam of around 88-89 CM. Thanks in advance! (BTW i now have a Trek Madone 5.2 in size 60)
> 
> And proud pictures will be posted upon buying one!


I am 187cm and I ride a 56cm/Large. At our size its normally between 56 and 58 depending on your build. I have long legs and shorter upper body and the 58 is too long for me. I even run a 90mm stem on my 56cm and a short reach handlebar.


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## ThomasB

Many thanks! This will most certainly help. 

I looked around, a bike shop not far from where I work has a 56 ready. I can test ride it this Thursday.


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## cbj

Btw I have the 105 Carbon. I really really like the specs. The new 105 is simply amazing but you still get the upgraded shifters and brakes. Only thing I wish is that it came with some 28c tubeless tires from the factory.


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## pssyche

ThomasB said:


> Hi Guys, i'm new to the forum. I am looking into the GT Grade Carbon 105. Read the reviews and the forum and I am really thinking about buying one. I will test ride one at the end of the week.
> 
> I really like the bike but I am doubting between the 58(XL) and the 60(XXL). Can share his or her measurements and the bike size of course? I am 188 CM with an inseam of around 88-89 CM. Thanks in advance! (BTW i now have a Trek Madone 5.2 in size 60)
> 
> And proud pictures will be posted upon buying one!


I'm the same height as you with 87 inseam and ride 58. Since it is my first road bike, at first I felt it was a bit too long, I even considered getting shorter stem but first tried reversing it and rode it that way for a couple of months. As I got used to road bike posture and my back stretched, I flipped the stem back and now I find it very comfortable, and actually ride in drops most of the time.


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## ThomasB

Thanks, both of you for your quick replies, most helpful!


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## TheoPental

This bike will be my next UK winter Road bike and commuter 

Any opinions on how the carbon will stand up to the abuse from the above usage gladly received. 

I have the budget for a carbon 105 but have a feeling the alloy x is a more robust and sensible choice 

Thanks


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## 92gli

cbj said:


> Might be the brakes not the fork then. I have experimented with letting go of the brakes when it happens and it stops right away and I can reapply and brake without a problem.


I was staring at mine last night and thinking about this issue. I noticed that the dropout on the disc side of the fork is half the thickness of the drive side. Hmmm... 
And then there's the issue of how the formula axle locks into the hub. Perhaps it doesn't grip into the disc side enough when it's tightened. If there is a little play in that interface it could be the issue. 
I'm not having the issue, but if I was I'd start with trying a different brand of disc. If that didn't work maybe there is another brand of axle to try.


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## cbj

TheoPental said:


> This bike will be my next UK winter Road bike and commuter
> 
> Any opinions on how the carbon will stand up to the abuse from the above usage gladly received.
> 
> I have the budget for a carbon 105 but have a feeling the alloy x is a more robust and sensible choice
> 
> Thanks


Its the same use I am putting mine through and I had the same discussion and I talked to everybody I knew that knows anything. My experience is all the wear will have nothing to do with the frame. I will put full fenders on the bike and they will take all the water, sand and road grime so it does not wear on the frame. The Alloy X is a nice bike too except for the boat anchor cranks.


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## cbj

I am very sure its not the center lock on the hubs that is causing this and I am sure this is not an isolated issue on just the Grade. Take a look at this









"Brook Macdonald's Trek Session is equipped with a prototype version of a harmonic damper that's designed to prevent any chattering from the rear end under heavy braking. Combining a light frame with big powerful stoppers like Shimano's Saint brakes can occasionally lead to unwanted vibrations, which is where a device like this comes in handy. Two pieces of rubber with a brass center piece are found inside the unit, technology that Trek originally developed for their hardtail customers, as well as for cyclists seeking a way to reduce the amount of high frequency vibrations transmitted from the road."

Link: Randoms From the Pits: World Cup DH, Leogang - Pinkbike

My experience so far is use less force when braking to eliminate the vibration. If you are on the hoods you are using 3 finger to brake vs on a mtb you can get by with only 1.


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## daralh

pssyche said:


> Which model do you have? I suspect on mine stock TRP rotors might be causing it. Today I switched front and back rotor, cleaned the pads with sandpaper, and noticed quite an improvement on the front, but the back does vibrate a bit now. My next step will probably be switching to some Shimano rotors.


 Have you checked the clearance between the spokes and spyre brake caliper? My spokes were hitting the calipers under hard braking. Shop adjusted it to clearance of less than 0.49 mm. Ended up having it sent back to gt for warranty.


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## GRAVELBIKE

Just received a demo Alloy Sora Grade, and the frame is a lot nicer looking than on the GT website.


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## benInMA

Hey guys... I'm going to test ride an Alloy/105/HyRd Grade this afternoon. I'm pretty excited about this bike but I was just curious about some of the weights I've seen for the Grade.

The 56cm Alloy bike I looked at last night and will go back to ride today weighed a somewhat shocking 22lbs at the bike shop. That does include pedals but it was still a bit surprising.

What are the Carbon 105 and Carbon Ultegra supposed to weigh? I'd assume under 20lbs for the 105 and hopefully less than 19lbs for the Ultegra in a 56?

It seems like the chances of testing riding a Carbon grade are slim to none and if you want to buy the Carbon 105 model there is a long long wait!

I would not be real weight weenie with this style of bike but I already have a heavy steel bike (All City Space horse) that can do gravel duty decently but weights 25-26lbs depending on tire setup.

I am contemplating the grade just because it is getting such rave reviews & the fit looks fantastic for me, but I don't really need all of it's versatility and I want something that is much zippier than my Space Horse. Some of the other bikes I'm looking at (Specialized Roubaix, Cannondale Synapse) are in the 17-18lb range. I'm going to ride a Specialized Diverge Carbon/105 as well and that seemed like it was less than 20lbs.

The geometry & setup of the grade seems top notch though. I was surprised at how long the stems are they are speccing & how wide the bars are, but that's easy to deal with. All the other bikes I'm looking at I would want to change the crank length, and that's much more expensive than changing a stem (free since I have a box of them) or a handle bar (potentially free to maybe $100). (The 56 grade seems to have a 120mm stem + 44cm wide bar at the hoods & 52cm wide at the drops.)


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## cbj

I have the 105 Carbon. Not sure of the weight. I would not call the bike zippy compared to my 15 lbs Roubaix and the main reason is not the total bike weight but the weight of the wheelset. At least that is my analysis right now and the upgrade I am hoping to make next year and run tubeless tires at the same time. Its also worth noting that I use the Grade as a commuter with 28c tires. If I set up the Grade with smaller Conti 4000 and clipless pedals it would make it noticeable faster.

My 56cm Carbon had a 100mm stem and the bar was super wide. My fit works better with a 90mm stem and much narrower bars (Got Cannondales brilliant alu bar in 40cm).


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## mtrac

Can someone confirm how Grades are typically specced? My LBS is a GT dealer, I have a GT road bike I like a lot, and have been interested in the Grade since it was announced. Anyhow, I finally saw one there recently, a customer's bike. It had a flat bar and triple crank. When I asked about a drop bar they steered me toward a Specialized Diverge.


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## Jay Strongbow

mtrac said:


> *Can someone confirm how Grades are typically specced?* My LBS is a GT dealer, I have a GT road bike I like a lot, and have been interested in the Grade since it was announced. Anyhow, I finally saw one there recently, a customer's bike. It had a flat bar and triple crank. When I asked about a drop bar they steered me toward a Specialized Diverge.


Look at GT's website.


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## mtrac

I did before I posted that. The LBS gave the impression they didn't sell them. I was curious why they'd sell flat bars but not the drop bar version. Cheaper? Lack of customer interest? Can't get them?


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## cbj

Impossible to know what happens are you lbs. Maybe look for a better shop does not sound like they care too much.


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## benInMA

Who knows..

My test ride didn't go so well. The bike was OK but I'm not sold on the length of it and the amount of fork rake/trail and head tube angle. 

The one I rode at the TRP HyRd brakes. They had pretty good power/modulation but it did have the chattering issue AFAICT. Nothing real bad or scary but it was there. (My test ride largely consisted of 2 reps up and down a 200ft/6% hill that took me about 4 minutes to climb. (Stoplight in the middle)

It didn't help at all that the bike had a 125mm stem & the wide bars but I don't think that was all of it. I was all stretched out & the bars are too wide but that didn't really make the handling bad or cause me any pain or anything. I think the long wheelbase just puts the front wheel too far away for me.

I went and rode a Specialized Roubaix afterwards and that blew me away after the Grade.. I'd assume the Specialized Diverge would have seemed better too. I was going to ride that one as well but ran out of time. It fits the same as the Roubaix so I'm pretty sure I would have liked the Diverge better than the Grade. (Basically I set the seat up exactly the same as the Grade, got on, and it handled telepathically...)

It does not help at all that you can't ride the Carbon Grade just about anywhere. The shop I tried the Grade at was trying to get me to order the Carbon Ultegra model on the spot before I could even see one. They've already sold their entire first allotment of Carbon Grades and had several riders buy them without test riding a Grade at all. I might have felt somewhat different if I'd gotten to ride the Carbon grade but I don't think so as the geometry is the same. The Alloy grade doesn't seem any special in terms of compliance/comfort though, it's pretty stiff/rough, and so I guess the Carbon one could be much better that way.


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## davidka

benInMA said:


> !
> 
> I would not be real weight weenie with this style of bike but I already have a heavy steel bike (All City Space horse) that can do gravel duty decently but weights 25-26lbs depending on tire setup.
> 
> I am contemplating the grade just because it is getting such rave reviews & the fit looks fantastic for me, but I don't really need all of it's versatility and I want something that is much zippier than my Space Horse. Some of the other bikes I'm looking at (Specialized Roubaix, Cannondale Synapse) are in the 17-18lb range. I'm going to ride a Specialized Diverge Carbon/105 as well and that seemed like it was less than 20lbs.


 If you really like the AC Space Horse, this type of bike wouldn't complement it very well, though you may like a bike with similar capabilities and the advantages of 5+lbs. less weight and disc brakes.


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## benInMA

I might still be open minded about the carbon grade but I'm not sure.

The test ride was really ruined by the seemingly crazy stock stem length on the bike I rode. The shop guy tried to explain it as the Grade being shorter than normal but that doesn't make sense to me.. most 56cm Top-Tubed bikes come stock with a 100mm stem. The grade is maybe 5mm shorter than say the Specialized Bikes, but it's actually less than that because the Grade has a taller Head Tube. Extend the Reach of 386mm on say a 56 Specialized Diverge up 11mm to match the height of the Grade and you end up with all of a 2-3mm difference in reach at that height, you'll just have less spacers on the grade. So anyway it is surprising to me that the stock Grade I rode was specced with a 125mm stem that effectively makes the grade feel much longer than the competition in a test ride.

Kind of peeved as I pulled a muscle in my back climbing with the grade AFAICT.. just getting over it a week later. I would not have thought a 30min test ride could screw me up so bad but I did climb a significant hill (almost the whole test ride was climbing) and I had been riding a lot the last few weeks so had a pretty high level of tension/fatigue to begin with. It's upper back, consistent with climbing a steep grade & pulling on the bars with excessive reach.

I'm not sure I actually like my Space Horse... But it has it's strengths and it's a bike I don't mind locking up at work outside on the rack. If I sold it and replaced it with a carbon grade I'd be much happier in most riding and I bet the grade would do fine with a rack/luggage since it has a long wheelbase but I'd be nervous with it locked up outside. The Space Horse is also compatible with the Burley Trailer I take my son on rides with too. Not many carbon frames can accept the trailer hitch.


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