# Road frame with the shortest chainstays? and steepest headtube?



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm interested in a road frame with very short chainstays (< 400mm), and steep headtube (74+ degrees). It can be either carbon, steel, or aluminm. But it has to be a standard road frame (w/130mm rear dropout) and not a track frame or time-trial frame.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> I'm interested in a road frame with very short chainstays (< 400mm), and steep headtube (74+ degrees). It can be either carbon, steel, or aluminm. But it has to be a standard road frame (w/130mm rear dropout) and not a track frame or time-trial frame.


Seeing as you're open to steel, have you talked to a framebuilder?

There are some very competent builders that are reasonably priced.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

velodog said:


> Seeing as you're open to steel, have you talked to a framebuilder?
> 
> There are some very competent builders that are reasonably priced.


I'm opened to going the custom steel frame route. But just thought if there is already a frame out there that I can just buy. I've been checking the Italian steel frame of the 90s as those usually have an agreesive geometry (short chainstays, steep head angle)... but find one in my size 51 - 51.5cm effective top tube) is pretty much impossible.. but I guess I'll use 52cm effective top tube if I had to, but 52 is not my ideal size (I already tried a 52cm).

I've been looking at a couple custom builders, one in the US, one in Italy. 

The one in the US has a good reputation for quality. My only hesitation with him (and with many US builders) is that he doesn't have much experience in building a racing geometry. He has built many mountain bikes frames, touring and tandem, but I don't see any race frames. This is the case for a lot of the US builders too.

The Italian builder is defintely and old school guy (he's in his late 60s), only builds road frames. This guy used to build frames for Ciocc and Cinelli back in the heydays of steel. So he knows racing geometry, especially for smaller riders (since he himself is a small guy). The real hesitation with going with an Italian builder is that well he's in Italy, and I'm in the US.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Are you Akira Sato?

Sprinter della Casa: Equipment - Bike Timeline, Part 7 - Tsunami Bikes
Sprinter della Casa: Equipment - Tsunami (Orange) Updates


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Vintage RIGI with split seat tube so tire fits through....??


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Nope not Akira Sato.

Interesting Rigi!

I'm looking for something a bit more modern though. Might go all out and do a custom with Columbus XCR with an Italian builder. Price would be about $2500; I think that's a bargain.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

With geometry like that, you're probably looking for very good lateral stiffness in the frame and fork, no?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> I'm interested in a road frame with very short chainstays (< 400mm).


May I ask why you would want that?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

looigi said:


> With geometry like that, you're probably looking for very good lateral stiffness in the frame and fork, no?


Exacta-mundo! Looking to run it either an Enve 2.0 or Serotta F3 fork.

I want a stiff frame and fork, but more importantly the frame and fork should have matching stiffness level. (eg, I think it'd be overkill to put an Alpha Q fork).

Basically the bike I envision is a "compact bike". Short chainstays (400mm), short wheelbase, steep head angle, has good stiffness, but it has to have balance too,... to me this means the bike will be on the fast and twitchy side of handling, yet still won't fishtail the rear during a high-G corner.

Now so fat I got a chance to talked with 2 US custom builders. They have good crafstmanship. But when I asked them specifically about a racing frame, their answers were sort of generic: "yeah we can custom your frame according to your needs". That didn't impart too much confidence in me. I mean I sort of have an idea what I want, but I still need the builder to have the experience to provide feedback. I don't want to be a guinea pig project.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> May I ask why you would want that?


I want a bike that turns fast.

Basically I already have Serottas for duties as long haul couches, Cyfac Nerv for overall racing. I'm yearning for a "track like" bike that can be ridden on the mountains. 

I have a steel Casati from the 90s but I cracked the downtube and it's been repaired (metal plated) but that's relegated to flatland use; dare not take her to the mountains again (just in case). You can say part of the reason of finding a shortstays bike is so i can find an excuse to build a steel bike that i can ride the mountains again (descending on steel is fun). Let the self-propheycy be fulfilled!

after looking at many many modern carbon bikes, it's apparent to me that most of these have 405 - 410 mm chainstays (surely for comfort and straightline stability). I wanted something a bit more aggressive. And the thing is, it appears I can get a custom steel frame using top notched steel (Columbus XCR) for much less than the price of a typical top line carbon frames from the likes of Spesh, Cdale, Trek, etc..


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> I'm opened to going the custom steel frame route. But just thought if there is already a frame out there that I can just buy. I've been checking the Italian steel frame of the 90s as those usually have an agreesive geometry (short chainstays, steep head angle)... but find one in my size 51 - 51.5cm effective top tube) is pretty much impossible.. but I guess I'll use 52cm effective top tube if I had to, but 52 is not my ideal size (I already tried a 52cm).
> 
> I've been looking at a couple custom builders, one in the US, one in Italy.
> 
> ...


I got my Della Santa last year and have been quite enamored with it. I ordered it around Thanksgiving and it arrived at my door early April, about 4.5 months.

The measurements he wanted from me were the ST length and angle and TT length. I asked for a 59cm x 73deg ST with a 57.5cm TT. He built the bike with those measurements and a 73.5 HT angle. The chainstays aren't marked on the build sheet, but a rough measurement gave me 41.5cm middle of BB to wheel axle. The tubeset is Dedacciai Zero Uno.

The man's been building Race Bikes a long time, he used to build Lemonds bikes. 

I sent a message through his web page and got his phone number from the guy who runs it. I was able to call and talk to Roland and he is a pretty straight forward kind of guy. I'm sure that if you called he'd have the time to talk to you about what you're looking for.

The only embellishment that I asked for was a flat fork crown. No chrome, one color clear coated paint, front derailer braze on and two water bottle mounts for less than two grand. Mine is set up for a quill stem, what I wanted, but I imagine that he does threadless also. I don't know about 1 1/8th.

It's a hell of a nice bike.

Della Santa custom built frames

There ain't much on the web page but a few pictures and contact info so I'd recommend writing and getting his phone number and have a talk.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Velodog,
thanks. I'll get in touch with him after New Year and see.

Not sure if I'm really knowledgable enough to know exactly what numbers to give him. I mean only have an idea of what my chainstays, and head angle should be about, and effective top tube length. But I'm not quite knowledgable about the exact number, especially the head angle, since the fork rake also comes into play, and this ultimately affect fork trail and overall bike handling. 

Ideally, I want a builder who already has built many race frames espeically for the small riders (like me). IMO, building a balanced frame for a small rider is a lot harder than building one for a larger rider.

I often wonder why that a small frame (xsmall) should have the same (or very similar) chainstay length as that of a much larger frame? But this is what you get with a lot mass-produced frames; they're trying to make a one size fit all rear triangle or something!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> Velodog,
> thanks. I'll get in touch with him after New Year and see.
> 
> Not sure if I'm really knowledgable enough to know exactly what numbers to give him. I mean only have an idea of what my chainstays, and head angle should be about, and effective top tube length. But I'm not quite knowledgable about the exact number, especially the head angle, since the fork rake also comes into play, and this ultimately affect fork trail and overall bike handling.
> ...


Yeah, most of the geometry questions are above my head also, but He's been building race bikes for 30 some years, maybe more, and I'm mighty pleased with the bike he built me.

Roland has got the knowledge and the skill, and if you tell him what you want and why, I'm sure he'll know the hows and whys of how to get it done. 

Classic Rendezvous, has Phone number.

Dellasanta main

And this video is why I decided to go with him.






When I got mine he told me that he was semi retired.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I think you're going to find most framebuilders with sufficient experience will turn you away. Your design if far outside of conventional frames.

You might be able to design a more balanced bike around your geometry with 650c wheels but that will involve other compromises.

Your best option is to seek a framebuilder with less experience that's new to the business. I'd expect respected framebuilders wouldn't want to risk their reptuation on your frame's design. 

Those are my observations. While you're looking for a framebuilder that will take the job, you might want to play with Bike CAD to see what problems you may run into.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

You are clearly confused about what makes a bike turn quickly. The front end of the bike (trail) has MUCH more to do w/ turning than how short or long the chain stays are.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Peter P. said:


> I think you're going to find most framebuilders with sufficient experience will turn you away. Your design if far outside of conventional frames.
> 
> You might be able to design a more balanced bike around your geometry with 650c wheels but that will involve other compromises.
> 
> ...


This, plus the comments from Mike T. and cxwrench pretty much sums it up. Short chainstays make for shifting problems, an uncomfortable ride, and don't make the bike turn faster. No experienced builder would make such a bike without at least arguing with you long and hard. The customer may always be right but that doesn't mean that a builder would want to put their name on it.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> This, plus the comments from Mike T. and cxwrench pretty much sums it up. Short chainstays make for shifting problems, an uncomfortable ride, and don't make the bike turn faster. No experienced builder would make such a bike without at least arguing with you long and hard. The customer may always be right but that doesn't mean that a builder would want to put their name on it.


I didn't think I'd made a comment outside of a questioning "May I ask why you would want that?" (polite ain't I?) I had comments that I could have made, based on the many custom frames I've ordered but he didn't ask for comments; just a searching question - "Road frame with the shortest chainstays? and steepest headtube?" 

I guess the shortest, steepest frame he could get would be one he speced out himself. I'm sure lots of builders (not all) would build almost anything even though all of them would have an opinion on "short & steep". But the OP might not like what most of them have to say. Over the decades I've seen all the frame fads come & go and not many of the bizarre ones stay around for long. I've seen the curved seat tube/split seat tube/no seat tube crazes in the quest to get the shortest chainstays possible. But they all suffered from compromised shifting. I didn't know how good shifting could be until I got my current custom frame (a titanium Kish). With the Kish I went to a 10-cog cassette up from a 9-cog on my prior frame - an Argon18. I left the chainstay length up to Jim and he nailed it to perfection - 41.5cm, which allows me to access all 10 cogs without any front derailer rub or the need to trim the f/derailer. Heck I couldn't do that with *9 cogs* on the Argon. (BTW - I don't access all 10 cogs from one chainring; I just have the ability to do so)

I too am of the belief that the fastest frame is the one that's balanced, fits and is comfortable. That's what most builders want to build - probably because they have enough experience to know what works and what doesn't.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

shorter wheelbase makes for a more agile bike. And you get a shorter wheelbase by making the wheels, be it the front wheel or rear wheel or both, right?

My old Casati has a 401mm wheelbase, not sure of the head angle, but it also has an overall short wheelbase when compared to a modern carbon bike of the same size. That thing tips into corners with ease, a lot easier than all my other modern bikes. I always feel like on my other bikes I'm always having to work too hard to make the bike turn. For example, their front end is always wanting to push wide, and this makes me have to reposition my body to make the front turn. But repositioning the body is itself a tricky thing too because if you unload the rear too much to make the front turn, then the rear can break loose. I don't want to have to shift my body, or shift as little as possible, if I can help it via machine setup. 

On the Casati, I feel that when I'm in a turn, the bike geometry is such that I'm in a neutral position, pretty much I don't need to do much correction, except to look and lean. But on the Casasti I'm also running skinny 22mm tires, not 23c. The smaller tires probably contribute to the agility of the turn in too. So I have a generally solid idea of what works.

All my other modern bikes have chainstays that are in the 406-410mm, and I feel that they are a bit long to be super agile. If the Casati can be 401mm, with still some room to spare, then there is reason for me to think that a bike with perhaps a 400mm stays can be made agile. No?

Looking around the current bikes out there, I see that the Cinelli XCR in size xsmall (51.5cm effective top tube) has a 403mm chainstays and a relatively short wheelbase. Head angle is a little slack, but the spec'ed fork has a 45mm rake, which mean it I wanted to, I could conceivably use an Enve 2.0 43mm raked fork (which I already have laying around) and experiment. So this is an option, albeit an expensive one, if no builders want to take up the build. And to be honest, I would not want any builder with little experience in building an agressive frame for me either, because they'll be just guessing. 

In fact, with one US builder, I asked him if I gave him the geometry specs of the Cinelli XCR, could he build one just exactly like it, or maybe even a little bit more agressive. His initial answer was a soft "yes", but then he went on to tell me that an agressive frame rides too harsh, and that I shouldn't be wanting such a frame. Also went on to say that lots of his clients find that his frames are comfortable riding. That was when I sort of walked away, because the builder did not exactly gravitate toward the notion of an agressive frame, which tells me he doesn't have much experience on building this sort of frame.

It would probably easier if I just get the Cinelli and be done. But I thought I would get a truely custom super agile steel bike, with my own paint scheme. Always wanted a custom painted steel. But perhaps after reading all the responses in here, I'm realizing I'm better off getting something proven, and Cinelli is certainly proven, classic Italian handling an all. 

Can't go wrong with Cinelli XCR right! Hell I already have a Shimano Ultegra 6800 mechanical groupset sitting at home begging to be put on a frame! No Campy, but pretty sure it'll still look pretty on the Cinelli!

And I realize short chainstays make for crapping shifting, especially if crosschaining. I've been riding xsmall frames all my life so this is nothing new. I don't expect smooth shifting, that's why I keep the gear ratio close.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

As pointed out, chainstay length mainly figures in in how it affects wheelbase. Shorting the chainstays by 1 cm affects wheelbase by ~1%, which will have a very small, likely imperceptible, effect. If you want to feel what riding a bike with ridiculously long chainstays/wheelbase feels like, ride a tandem solo.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

looigi said:


> As pointed out, chainstay length mainly figures in in how it affects wheelbase. Shorting the chainstays by 1 cm affects wheelbase by ~1%, which will have a very small, likely imperceptible, effect. If you want to feel what riding a bike with ridiculously long chainstays/wheelbase feels like, ride a tandem solo.


Many moons ago I used to race mtb tandems. They sucked. The only good thing about a tandem is you can bomb straight down over big rocks with immunity, without fearing of going over the bar or fishtailing. No need to pick your lines, no need to position your body much, just let her rip, in a straight line.

I can't quantify how much of a change is 1 cm going to make. But on my Casati with a shorter stays and wheelbase, I can definitely feel the difference, and there is no question about this. And back in the days when I was dipping my feet into motorcycling, shortening the wheelbase on my CBR600 by 1 cm can result in subtle change that I would feel the difference in certain situations. Don't feel down the straight, maybe make a tad more wheelie prone, but in cambered corners, I felt the difference. So I think 1 cm change in wheelbase is significant change on a bicycle based on my experience.

of course I could also change my body position to compensate for a longer wheelbase, to make the bike turn in faster, but body position is always there whether you're on a short or longer bike. But if I can make the bike works for me, optimize it for my style, while requiring little effort from the rider, then why not? Like I say body position is always there, but geometry is sort of fix once a bicycle is built. So it's crucial to get is prefect. (On a motorcycle you can change how the bike turn in by playing with the shocks and fork, rear end height, but that's another story).

but me think building a fast frame for a small rider is not an easy thing to do without dipping into the 650 wheels. And judging by the reaction of some people in here, it's almost like a taboo even. But think about it. A 405, 410, 415mm chaistays are on bikes made for an "average" guy, who 1) is assumed to like a stable and comfortable bike, and 2) is himself bigger than me. I don't see why a smaller rider who likes a more agressive frame should riding the same chainstays as a bigger rider who likes a more comfortable frame. I understand chainstays is not everything in the equation of bike handling, but when you want an agressive bike, you start to ask questions like.. "what else I do to make it turn faster".. while still keeping the frame a traditional road frame. And when looking at the Casati and comparing it to the Serottas and Cyfac and a friend's Cdale Caad, I can certainly see that the chainstays can be made to 400mm without much issue. Hell I can almost run 28c gravel tires in my Serottas! Definitely has room to shorten.

or hmm I think I just shut up and get the Cinelli XCR already. Man, that's a 3-4 months wait period. Maybe order now and get it by Spring!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> Many moons ago I used to race mtb tandems. They sucked. The only good thing about a tandem is you can bomb straight down over big rocks with immunity, without fearing of going over the bar or fishtailing. No need to pick your lines, no need to position your body much, just let her rip, in a straight line.
> 
> I can't quantify how much of a change is 1 cm going to make. But on my Casati with a shorter stays and wheelbase, I can definitely feel the difference, and there is no question about this. And back in the days when I was dipping my feet into motorcycling, shortening the wheelbase on my CBR600 by 1 cm can result in subtle change that I would feel the difference in certain situations. Don't feel down the straight, maybe make a tad more wheelie prone, but in cambered corners, I felt the difference. So I think 1 cm change in wheelbase is significant change on a bicycle based on my experience.
> 
> ...


Since you want track geometry, why not get a track frame and see for yourself?

Get a soma rush, cold set to rear end to 130, and you're done. The older ones even had bottom bracket cable guides, but even if they are gone now that's not to hard to fix...


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

If you're bikes are "pushing wide" I would suggest getting a longer stem, and sliding your seat forward a bit to move the center of mass further toward the front of the bike. That should make the handling much more positive.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Seeing as you seem to know what you want, why don't you contact loads of custom builders to see who will build you a 34cm chainstay frame? That's about as short as you could go with a 700c wheel and a 23mm tire. Of course you won't be able to have a traditional seat tube but that's been dealt with many decades ago via the Baines' Flying Gate frame or the Jack Taylor curved seat tube (Google Image 'em). But as you're not tall, how about smaller wheels than 700c? Then you can get shorter chainstays than 34cm. About 30-40 years ago I saw a guy race crits many times with a bike custom made with a small front wheel (24"?) so he could draft better. It's just a matter of thinking outside the box and finding a willing welder.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> *shorter wheelbase makes for a more agile bike*. And you get a shorter wheelbase by making the wheels, be it the front wheel or rear wheel or both, right?
> 
> My old Casati has a 401mm wheelbase, *not sure of the head angle*, but it also has an overall short wheelbase when compared to a modern carbon bike of the same size. That thing tips into corners with ease, a lot easier than all my other modern bikes. I always feel like on my other bikes I'm always having to work too hard to make the bike turn. For example, their front end is always wanting to push wide, and this makes me have to reposition my body to make the front turn. But repositioning the body is itself a tricky thing too because if you unload the rear too much to make the front turn, then the rear can break loose. I don't want to have to shift my body, or shift as little as possible, if I can help it via machine setup.
> 
> ...


All of the things you're saying point to the fact that you really don't know very much about what makes a bike handle in any give way. The reason the frame builder was reluctant to build that frame for you is because he knows your line of thinking is incorrect...not because he's "not experienced at building aggressive frames". It's pretty damn easy to make a pair of chain stays 10mm shorter, all you do is cut and miter them. 

Like I (and others) have said before, _the front end of the bike will determine how it steers_. If you refuse to believe this fact, go ahead and waste all the money you want on 'experimenting'. You'll figure it out sooner or later.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> ...waste all the money you want on 'experimenting'. ...


While I agree with your opinions, cxwrench, I think you delivered them with a little too much hostility.

Only aclinjury can decide whether his geometry will work for him. His biggest problem will be finding a builder willing to take the commission. I don't think any of the marquee brands will accept it, so he'll have to risk a little by going with a freshman or sophomore builder, one who won't mind the money and could use the experience.

In fact, I hope the OP DOES find a builder because I'd love to see the final product and hear a ride report.


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## Blue Star (Jun 9, 2012)

I ride a Marinoni with 405mm chainstays and really like the way the bike handles and climbs. You've already identified the Cinelli and the other option is the de Rosa Corum, which can be purchased from Wiggle.

Marinoni Piumas are available in either titanium or Spirit steel and the Primo (same geometry as the Piuma), which is made with a combination of Zona and Life steel.

This kind of tight frame has an established niche and I doubt that you'd have problems getting any frame builder to set you up with one.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

There is so much more that goes into handling than just short chainstays. HT Angle, and trail make a huge difference. BB drop also factors in. Along with tube stiffnesses, ST angle, overall body position, stem length, etc.

74 degree HT with a 45mm fork rake yields a trail of 50mm. That's pretty tight. I ride a bike with 73 degree HT and a 50mm fork rake, trail is 51mm. But I've also got 75mm of BB drop, which is a little more than normal - this lowers my center of gravity and helps keep the bike from getting too twitchy. The chainstays are short. Center of BB to dropout is 405mm. There is not enough clearance for 25mm tires. The bike has super quick handling, but still stable enough for my needs. It was a custom build, by Guru.

Every adjustment you make to geometry requires a tradeoff somewhere else. Make sure you either work with a framebuilder that has a very good understanding of geometry and what factors affect handling and all the trade offs involved with each decision, or really spend a lot of time to educate yourself. Even better, do both.

You can find a basic trail calculator at: Bicycle Trail Calculator | yojimg.net


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

foto said:


> Since you want track geometry, why not get a track frame and see for yourself?
> 
> Get a soma rush, cold set to rear end to 130, and you're done. The older ones even had bottom bracket cable guides, but even if they are gone now that's not to hard to fix...


I have a Look trackie. I tried it on the road (smooth road mostly) a couple times, and that was enough to convince me that I can't ride a track frame on the real world road, and definitely not on a climb. Already tinker with this idea!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

foto said:


> If you're bikes are "pushing wide" I would suggest getting a longer stem, and sliding your seat forward a bit to move the center of mass further toward the front of the bike. That should make the handling much more positive.


And like I said earlier, I can correct this with body positioning, weight shifting. Nothing new, done it many times on the motorcycle. But on the bicycle, if not carefule, unloading the rear too much can cause a catasrophic slide! Man, I popped a rear tire on such slide and ate it. It's always better to get the bike setup correctly first though.

My frame as it is has a 51.5cm effective top tube, I'm using a 40cm wide handlebar with a 90mm stem. If I go 100mm stem, then my shoulders hurt majorly on a long climb or in a prolong tuck position. So I went back to 90mm.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Peter P. said:


> While I agree with your opinions, cxwrench, I think you delivered them with a little too much hostility.
> 
> Only aclinjury can decide whether his geometry will work for him. His biggest problem will be finding a builder willing to take the commission. I don't think any of the marquee brands will accept it, so he'll have to risk a little by going with a freshman or sophomore builder, one who won't mind the money and could use the experience.
> 
> In fact, I hope the OP DOES find a builder because I'd love to see the final product and hear a ride report.


It's not true that nobody wants to take up the project.

I have tried a couple US builders, and based on my conversation with them, I did not find that they are experienced in building race frames. I do not doubt their workmanship, but doubt their abilit to help me. Think going to OCC Choppers and asking them to build you a race bike. That was how I felt the 2 builders were. They soft of telling me that my idea would yield an uncomfortable frame and wanted me to go with something more traditional geometry (which I already have plenty of bikes for). 

I have not tried contacting other US builders. But I may after the new year.

I have contacted one Italian builder, and he has said it's possible to do what I want, not a problem. He has built many race frames for Ciocc and Cinelli himself. And as I have said, my hesitation is that he's in Italy, and requires a 50% deposit. Time would be 3-4 months minumun. So this is the hesitation with the Italian guy.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Blue Star said:


> I ride a Marinoni with 405mm chainstays and really like the way the bike handles and climbs. You've already identified the Cinelli and the other option is the de Rosa Corum, which can be purchased from Wiggle.
> 
> Marinoni Piumas are available in either titanium or Spirit steel and the Primo (same geometry as the Piuma), which is made with a combination of Zona and Life steel.
> 
> This kind of tight frame has an established niche and I doubt that you'd have problems getting any frame builder to set you up with one.


I'll start looking into the frames mentioned up there. I've been looking at old steel frame geometry and trackie to find what's possible, what's not, what I can realistically expect to find.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

JoelS said:


> There is so much more that goes into handling than just short chainstays. HT Angle, and trail make a huge difference. BB drop also factors in. Along with tube stiffnesses, ST angle, overall body position, stem length, etc.
> 
> 74 degree HT with a 45mm fork rake yields a trail of 50mm. That's pretty tight. I ride a bike with 73 degree HT and a 50mm fork rake, trail is 51mm. But I've also got 75mm of BB drop, which is a little more than normal - this lowers my center of gravity and helps keep the bike from getting too twitchy. The chainstays are short. Center of BB to dropout is 405mm. There is not enough clearance for 25mm tires. The bike has super quick handling, but still stable enough for my needs. It was a custom build, by Guru.
> 
> ...


And this is exactly what I'm doing! Educating myself on what's possible, what's not, what's practical, what's not.. while looking for a guy who has experience with race frames for the small guys. In fact, I've been thinking about it for a few months now, this question just didn't appear overnight because I wanted a short chainstays. 

I should have entitled the post to be "What is an agressive race geometry bike". Seems like some people in here are hell bent focused on chainstays except for you! Good job pointing it out.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> Seems like some people in here are hell bent focused on chainstays.


Maybe, jusssst maybe because your post title was *"Road frame with the shortest chainstays?"* and the opening line was *"I'm interested in a road frame with very short chainstays (< 400mm)".* But silly us for jumping to conclusions eh?


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> And this is exactly what I'm doing! Educating myself on what's possible, what's not, what's practical, what's not.. while looking for a guy who has experience with race frames for the small guys. In fact, I've been thinking about it for a few months now, this question just didn't appear overnight because I wanted a short chainstays.
> 
> I should have entitled the post to be "What is an agressive race geometry bike". Seems like some people in here are hell bent focused on chainstays except for you! Good job pointing it out.


For whatever it's worth, Guru has built a frameset for me, and one for my wife (she's about 5'4"). We're both very happy with them. I'm not so tall either, 5'7". They do steel, I think the frameset is something like $2200 to start. They also do custom geometry and tube selection. Worth a look anyway.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Seeing as you seem to know what you want, why don't you contact loads of custom builders to see who will build you a 34cm chainstay frame? That's about as short as you could go with a 700c wheel and a 23mm tire. Of course you won't be able to have a traditional seat tube but that's been dealt with many decades ago via the Baines' Flying Gate frame or the Jack Taylor curved seat tube (Google Image 'em). But as you're not tall, how about smaller wheels than 700c? Then you can get shorter chainstays than 34cm. About 30-40 years ago I saw a guy race crits many times with a bike custom made with a small front wheel (24"?) so he could draft better. It's just a matter of thinking outside the box and finding a willing welder.


I wanna stick with 700c wheels, and if possible traditional seat tube. Don't really want to get into the realm of split and curved seat tube. I want a compact bike, yet want to keep it a classic roadie.

And speaking of 24" wheels, saw this guy on a ride once with a slammed bmx bike (it appeared to be) with 20" wheel up front, 24" wheel out back. In the middle of the front triangle is a contraption to carry bricks, lots of bricks! Guess what's he using the bike for?? Downhill sledding! No kidding. Dude would put on fullface helmet, body armor, and rip, it's quite amazing to see it in person when he's railing past some motorcycles in corners.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Maybe, jusssst maybe because your post title was *"Road frame with the shortest chainstays?"* and the opening line was *"I'm interested in a road frame with very short chainstays (< 400mm)".* But silly us for jumping to conclusions eh?


not silly. But you guys have been reading my thread, so you should have known that I'm looking for an agressive race geometry by now, regardless of thread title. You (and cxwrench) of all pepole are knowledgable enough to have picked it up, but you chose to fixate on the chainstays, no? How come other posters came in here and they were able to see what I want? Hey man don't sweat it, it's xmas. If you have constructive opininions then let's hear it! If your opinion is of the "he's a dumbass, but I'm gonna slam him anyway".. then move along eh.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> All of the things you're saying point to the fact that you really don't know very much about what makes a bike handle in any give way. The reason the frame builder was reluctant to build that frame for you is because he knows your line of thinking is incorrect...not because he's "not experienced at building aggressive frames". It's pretty damn easy to make a pair of chain stays 10mm shorter, all you do is cut and miter them.
> 
> Like I (and others) have said before, _the front end of the bike will determine how it steers_. If you refuse to believe this fact, go ahead and waste all the money you want on 'experimenting'. You'll figure it out sooner or later.


Cool. I think I can figure this out without further input from you.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

JoelS said:


> For whatever it's worth, Guru has built a frameset for me, and one for my wife (she's about 5'4"). We're both very happy with them. I'm not so tall either, 5'7". They do steel, I think the frameset is something like $2200 to start. They also do custom geometry and tube selection. Worth a look anyway.


I'm 5'7 too, apparently with short back and long legs. I will sent Guru an email to see what they say! If they do XCR steel, than it gets more interesting for me.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Just an update (for those interested).

I have just received an email from a small builder in Arizona. Heard of this guy thru friends from the local crit scene here in Socal. Originally I only sent him an email asking about his frame geometry, but as it turns out, he does not have a stock frame in my size of my wanting. But he said that if I'm really serious about, he can certainly build me one, said it even better if I come to Arizona! He said what I'm asking is doable, maybe some tweaks here and there once he knows my actual body measurement, but doable. But he only does carbon fiber (that's his forte). No steel. I did ask him about stiffness data, but he said he hasn't really tested his frame and has no data for me, but he's confident he can make it stiff, as stiff as I want it to be. Intriguing to say the least. We haven't discussed pricing yet. But I'm hesitant to lead him on because I prefer a steel frame, preferably XCR steel, and I'm also afraid a custom carbon fiber will also be a lot more expensive than steel. Intriguing nonetheless though.

I figure if I'm having to spend a lot of money, then I migh as well go with the Cinelli XCR as this will surely hold its value down the road. Also because I've always wanted a steel Cinelli. We'll see..


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Just a bit of caution when you consider stiffness. 'Stiff enough' is what you want. Too stiff and the bike is unrideable. But you need it stiff enough to corner, and the chainstays/BB to be stiff for power transfer. There's a fine balance there. 

If you can spend some time being very introspective (and test ride a whole bunch of off the shelf bikes for comparison) and figure out exactly what you like, what you don't like, and how you want the bike to ride, then a good builder can deliver exactly what you want.

The nervous part for me was waiting for the bike and not knowing if what I *thought* I wanted really was what I *did* want. Turns out I got it right. My wife went through the same uncertainty. We got hers right too. Not everyone does. Once you order a custom frame, there's no returning it if you aren't happy. Be absolutely sure of what you want before you order.

Best of luck to you. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk further. I'm happy to share what limited knowledge I have. There's always more to learn!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

JoelS said:


> Just a bit of caution when you consider stiffness. 'Stiff enough' is what you want. Too stiff and the bike is unrideable. But you need it stiff enough to corner, and the chainstays/BB to be stiff for power transfer. There's a fine balance there.
> 
> If you can spend some time being very introspective (and test ride a whole bunch of off the shelf bikes for comparison) and figure out exactly what you like, what you don't like, and how you want the bike to ride, then a good builder can deliver exactly what you want.
> 
> ...


yeah exactly I think you're right as I have discovered in the last several months. I keep asking myself this and that, what if this, what if that. I'm not an expert, but I know some, I have a strong idea what i want out of a bike. But this alone is not enough. I will need the builder to also have the experience to "read my mind" too. If I can't feel that the builder has this, then I won't commit.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> yeah exactly I think you're right as I have discovered in the last several months. I keep asking myself this and that, what if this, what if that. I'm not an expert, but I know some, I have a strong idea what i want out of a bike. But this alone is not enough. I will need the builder to also have the experience to "read my mind" too. If I can't feel that the builder has this, then I won't commit.


I'm just curious.....with the strongest riders and best descenders in the world seemingly getting by just fine with rather ordinary geo and stiffness what is it about you that creates such an out of the box need or want?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> not silly. But you guys have been reading my thread, so you should have known that I'm looking for an agressive race geometry by now, regardless of thread title. You (and cxwrench) of all pepole are knowledgable enough to have picked it up, but you chose to fixate on the chainstays, no? How come other posters came in here and they were able to see what I want? Hey man don't sweat it, it's xmas. If you have constructive opininions then let's hear it! If your opinion is of the "he's a dumbass, but I'm gonna slam him anyway".. then move along eh.


I'll ignore your rant at me....eh. If you're considering Guru, consider Marinoni - not far away from Guru, in Montreal. They'll do steel or aluminum. I've had (and have) a few of their frames dating back to the mid '70s. No-one in N. America has built as many custom frames as they have. Their frames, painted and decaled in various trade team colors, have won many big races. Connie Carpenter-Phinney, LA in '84 comes to mind.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> I'll ignore your rant at me....eh. If you're considering Guru, consider Marinoni - not far away from Guru, in Montreal. They'll do steel or aluminum. I've had (and have) a few of their frames dating back to the mid '70s. No-one in N. America has built as many custom frames as they have. Their frames, painted and decaled in various trade team colors, have won many big races. Connie Carpenter-Phinney, LA in '84 comes to mind.


thanks for ignoring my rant! eh.

thank you that's what I wanna hear! You're the second person mentioning Marinoni now. What I think I'll do is drop them an email, and Guru too, and see what they have to say. At this point, I have no doubt that what I want is pleasable, and very well do-able. The question is starting to shift toward pricing. At first, I thought I'd get just an "old school" steel frame and build a fun bike that would give the feeling like the Casati; that Casati is flexy compared to a modern carbon fiber frame, but on the descent it provided impeccable road feedback that I have yet to feel in any of my other bikes (and I've ridden plenty of $10,000 bikes). But finding an old school frame in size 51cm, in good shape, is almost an impossible thing to do (yep, have been searching craigslist and ebay for almost a year now).

But if I'm going to go custom, then I will have more considerations, like material, paint, reputation of builder, the ability of the builder to make the bike "timeless" with a balanced mix of old school geometry and new school features. I'll be honese, money is always a factor of course. And I'm a bit partial to classic Italian geometry (again it's based on the Casati experience). I have looked at a few XCR based frame from a few big names builders in the US, and frankly those frames don't move me. One builder used a 44mm wideheadtube on what seems to be a medium sized frame.. jssh! makes the frame look like a brute and outta place with the rest of the other tubes.. pretty sure he has a good reason to use a 44mm h/t.. but..


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> You're the second person mentioning Marinoni now. What I think I'll do is drop them an email, and Guru too, The question is starting to shift toward pricing.


The Marinoni will be about 1/2 the price of the Guru. I'm not saying that's bad or good; it's just a fact. Marinoni, over the last 40 years, has got awful fast at making frames. Plus they do everything in-house - paint, chrome, aluminum heat-treat.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm just curious.....with the strongest riders and best descenders in the world seemingly getting by just fine with rather ordinary geo and stiffness what is it about you that creates such an out of the box need or want?


First of all, you should not compare me, you, or any ordinary rider in here with pros. Pros are pros because they are good at what they do. Secondly, some of the best pros have custom geometry frame. Material wise, their frames may be made of the same material using the same techniques as any topline carbon bike frame you can buy at the LBS, but the devil is in the geometry details.

Ask any guy who has raced motorcycle, why is it that he can't get a bike to turn into a corner or stop on a dime, yet while his teammate is railing it and flicking it at will. Same bike. The devil is in the setup details, the real secret. Same thing if that's what you wanna do with a bicycle.

What works for the pros don't necessarily means it'll work for you. I would never setup my motorcycle like say Valentino Rossi because of such skill difference. I would never setup my bike like a Sagan because my torso is much shorter than his when compared to my legs. Sagan rides a custom geometry Cdale, of course.

For me personally, I have actually ridden a bike with shorter chainstays (the Casati) and I KNOW what works for me. Furthermore, I'm a smaller guy, shorter than an average guy, and no doubt that many of the frames on the market right now are built with a bigger person in mind. That's what mass produced frame is all about, building a frame that works for everyone, and in most cases, I'd say it's ok. I have no issue riding mass produced frame, but the best frames that I ride fastest on (especially on the descent) have been boutique frames (Casati, Cyfac).

And lastly, what I'm looking to get is in fact nothing out of the ordinary in the realm of bicycle geometry. It is classic Italian race geometry for the short riders. The only thing that is "out of the box" is that that these sort of frames are 1) difficult to find on today's market in new condition, 2) are not welcomed because the bike industry has determined that people are better off riding frame with a more relaxed geometry with so much emphasis on "comfort" and "century" (well they sell this as "progress"). 

Right now I can still manage riding a tight race frame without much issue because I'm still flexible. You don't get younger, figure hey why not enjoy a tight frame now before I'll get to 60, then I'll be shopping for a "roubaix" frame like the mass. Do something now while I still have the ability.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> The Marinoni will be about 1/2 the price of the Guru. I'm not saying that's bad or good; it's just a fact. Marinoni, over the last 40 years, has got awful fast at making frames. Plus they do everything in-house - paint, chrome, aluminum heat-treat.


thanks for the info about pricing. And I don't think pricing necessarily and automatically prescribe anything about a frame. I've bought expensive frames that would later make me think "boy, I've overpaid for that". I get feeling a lot for the big brand names. So far all my keeper frames (4 of them) have been all boutique frames, and I would never sell them because I know it can be extremely difficult for me to replace a finely tuned geometry in size xsmall.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> First of all, *you should not compare me, you, or any ordinary rider in here with pros. Pros are pros because they are good at what they do.* Secondly, some of the best pros have custom geometry frame. Material wise, their frames may be made of the same material using the same techniques as any topline carbon bike frame you can buy at the LBS, but the devil is in the geometry details.
> 
> Ask any guy who has raced motorcycle, why is it that he can't get a bike to turn into a corner or stop on a dime, yet while his teammate is railing it and flicking it at will. Same bike. The devil is in the setup details, the real secret. Same thing if that's what you wanna do with a bicycle.
> 
> ...


-I'm not trying to compare you to a pro but wondering why your needs for stiffness would exceed theirs when I would think their riding and power would be much more likely to flex a frame to the point where it's a negative than 99% of non pros.

-I'm certainly not a frame geometry historian so I'm not saying you are wrong but I'm not aware of a 74 degree HTA on a small frame ever being considered in the box, so to speak.

Have you looked at Gaulzetti? I actually don't know the numbers of the geometry but I know they advertize that they use classic Italian race geo and the people I know who have one say they are pure quick hadling race bikes that are very stiff. Alloy only, I think.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

FWIW: I heard Guru filed chapter 11 last June...are they back in operation again?


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

looigi said:


> FWIW: I heard Guru filed chapter 11 last June...are they back in operation again?


I've been in contact with them. There is no truth to that. They did sell the DFU to Dorel.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

looigi said:


> FWIW: I heard Guru filed chapter 11 last June...are they back in operation again?


I don't know about last June but they had their assets repossessed by their bank 4ish years ago and got them back 3ish years ago. Never stopped operating as far as I know. Definitely never Chapter 11, specifically, because they are Canadian so that couldn't happen.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> Cool. I think I can figure this out without further input from you.


I was going to offer some clarification on the exact things I was talking about, but it sounds like you're not interested.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

*"Cool. I think I can figure this out without further input from you."*



cxwrench said:


> I was going to offer some clarification on the exact things I was talking about, but it sounds like you're not interested.


BwaaaHaaaHaaaa, you got told cx.  ROFL.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Not sure anyone mentioned it but for fun check out the gios compact from the 80's. It had ridiciusouly short chain stays. Some models had a double seat tube the wheel came in thru. But I'm remembering 25 years ago, so I might be a bit wrong. Lol lol

Bill


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> I have a Look trackie. I tried it on the road (smooth road mostly) a couple times, and that was enough to convince me that I can't ride a track frame on the real world road, and definitely not on a climb. Already tinker with this idea!


And what was it about the track frame you didn't like?


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I don't know about last June but they had their assets repossessed by their bank 4ish years ago and got them back 3ish years ago. Never stopped operating as far as I know. Definitely never Chapter 11, specifically, because they are Canadian so that couldn't happen.


Yeah it was something like that. Memory is fuzzy. They got bought by Dorel???


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Here it is not a gios


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> *"Cool. I think I can figure this out without further input from you."*
> 
> 
> BwaaaHaaaHaaaa, you got told cx.  ROFL.





aclinjury said:


> I have a Look trackie. I tried it on the road (smooth road mostly) a couple times, and that was enough to convince me that I can't ride a track frame on the real world road, and definitely not on a climb. Already tinker with this idea!


So it wasn't exactly the fact that it was a 'track' frame but more the gear ratio, correct? When track bikes or 'fixed gear' bikes are ridden on the road they are fitted w/ much easier gear ratios than when used on velodromes. Typical mass start gear is 90", typical road gear is 70". 50x15 vs 46x18, roughly.


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## hppy4u (Sep 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> I'm interested in a road frame with very short chainstays (< 400mm), and steep headtube (74+ degrees). It can be either carbon, steel, or aluminm. But it has to be a standard road frame (w/130mm rear dropout) and not a track frame or time-trial frame.


Some frames that might fit your criteria are (in no particular order):
1. Serenity Marvel frames (steep head and seat tube angles in addition to short chain stays). I have ridden the road and track versions and surprisingly, they are very stable bikes.

2. Derosa bikes (these used to have steep angles-especially seat tube angles and short chain stays)

3. Gios bicycles (these used to be easily available from Excel sports about a decade ago and were nice because they had adjustable dropouts that would allow you to play with chain stay length)

I have ridden all these bikes and would highly recommend the serenity or derosa bikes because they are both extremely responsive at speed.


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## sante pollastri (Dec 2, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> shorter wheelbase makes for a more agile bike. And you get a shorter wheelbase by making the wheels, be it the front wheel or rear wheel or both, right?
> 
> My old Casati has a 401mm wheelbase, not sure of the head angle, but it also has an overall short wheelbase when compared to a modern carbon bike of the same size. That thing tips into corners with ease, a lot easier than all my other modern bikes. I always feel like on my other bikes I'm always having to work too hard to make the bike turn. For example, their front end is always wanting to push wide, and this makes me have to reposition my body to make the front turn. But repositioning the body is itself a tricky thing too because if you unload the rear too much to make the front turn, then the rear can break loose. I don't want to have to shift my body, or shift as little as possible, if I can help it via machine setup.
> 
> ...


cicli Barco ciclibarco
Barco make the Cinelli xcr,and also the same frame with Barco name,by far less expensive of the Cinelli one.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> I was going to offer some clarification on the exact things I was talking about, but it sounds like you're not interested.


Thanks CX. I know you're an old grouch in here. And I know you have lots of advices!! Don't get me wrong, I know that you know a lot! But at this point, and even before making this post, I sort of had an idea what I wanted already.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

sante pollastri said:


> cicli Barco ciclibarco
> Barco make the Cinelli xcr,and also the same frame with Barco name,by far less expensive of the Cinelli one.


Thank you for this very informative info!!! ))


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Guys,

an update... (for those interested)

I did a lot of long hard thinking, about all the pros and cons of every suggested frame, brand names, material, and of course (most important of all) my own personal desire... and basically I am pretty much settled on the Cinelli XCR. I had contacted an official Cinelli dealer in Europe so the ball is starting to roll...

..that is, until Mr Sante above posted the info about Barco. I will probably check into Barco, but if the price difference is less than $500, I'd probably still go with Cinelli anyway


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## Burnette (Mar 25, 2013)

*Great Info*

aclinjury, I just read your thread today. I'm in the same boat as far as stature and bike needs.
At 5' 3" and my bike size is a 51, I feel ya on the handling issues for us. The guys ragging you about stock geometries of rack bikes don't know what we experience when we ride. The handling on my current bike is too realxed, feels like I'm dragging it around corners, it's hard to pitch into turns, feel too long, like I'm pulling a trailer.

My journey has led me to consider stainless steel 953 custom or custom titanium. Your thread has been very helpful and given me some things to consider. I was aware of the Cinelli XCR, I can go custom for a cheaper price or close to the same price of the Cinelli, but they do make a pretty bike with no wait, big plus there.
NAHBS is coming to Charlotte, NC this year, about an hour and a half away from me. Going to talk with some builders there about my needs.
Going custom takes money and you're married to the results, have to get it right the first time, so I tread here lightly.
I love the look of the Cinelli XCR and want to know all about the buying and build process you go through and of course, how it handles for you. PM me or post here, really interested in what you discover going this route.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Burnette said:


> aclinjury, I just read your thread today. I'm in the same boat as far as stature and bike needs.
> At 5' 3" and my bike size is a 51, I feel ya on the handling issues for us. The guys ragging you about stock geometries of rack bikes don't know what we experience when we ride. The handling on my current bike is too realxed, feels like I'm dragging it around corners, it's hard to pitch into turns, feel too long, like I'm pulling a trailer.
> 
> My journey has led me to consider stainless steel 953 custom or custom titanium. Your thread has been very helpful and given me some things to consider. I was aware of the Cinelli XCR, I can go custom for a cheaper price or close to the same price of the Cinelli, but they do make a pretty bike with no wait, big plus there.
> ...


Glad to see you got some info outta my thread. Yeah I've asking around about the custom route. Asked a few builders in the US. Basically the cheapest I can expect is about $2600 (frame and fork), and goes to over $4000ish. $2600 is from a lesser known builder, and $4000ish is from a more known builders.

the Cinelli XCR falls right inline with the $4000ish category.

The Cinelli XCR is a build-to-order bike though. They don't build it until you place an order, and it does have a wait time of 3 months. This would jive with the information that Sante Pollastri posted above (about Barco building Cinelli XCR). Cinelli XCR does not offer custom geo, but their size xs (with a 51.5cm effective top tube) fits me to a tee!

However, the Barco XCR is also very niiiceee. If Barco offers full custom geo AND paint, well... I will need to think some more! I just sent an email to Barco, let's see how this will go...

at this point.. Cinelli XCr or Barco XCr,.. it will happen!


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

aclinjury said:


> Glad to see you got some info outta my thread. Yeah I've asking around about the custom route. Asked a few builders in the US. Basically the cheapest I can expect is about $2600 (frame and fork), and goes to over $4000ish. $2600 is from a lesser known builder, and $4000ish is from a more known builders.
> 
> the Cinelli XCR falls right inline with the $4000ish category.
> 
> ...


Barco looks cool!

A couple of thoughts, though. Have you thought to bring your Casati with you when you talk to a custom builder? The ones I know of often will start with what you like about your current ride, or often will try to riff on what you have--and possibly improving it by using current generation lighter tubes etc... I have known of people ordering what are essentially modern copies of old favorites that they love.

As far as the custom process (and this from someone who has not yet had to do it), I think from your self-description you might well be a candidate (short torso, long legs)-and I think you are right to look for a builder who will inspire trust in you--that even if you have only a partial grasp of what it is you are looking for, and perhaps even lack the technical expertise to describe where you want to end up, the builder will listen patiently, extract the essence of what you are saying, and then translate it into the frame you will love. The use of an existing bike as a starting point helps, because it does not require slippery words to facillitate a meeting of the minds.


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## chewgl (Jul 24, 2008)

I picked up on this thread on Google. Have you considered older model Litespeed Ultimates? Well known for their short chainstays (38+cm), and had curved seat tubes / cut-out seat tubes to manage that. Might be difficult to find one in your size though.




aclinjury said:


> Glad to see you got some info outta my thread. Yeah I've asking around about the custom route. Asked a few builders in the US. Basically the cheapest I can expect is about $2600 (frame and fork), and goes to over $4000ish. $2600 is from a lesser known builder, and $4000ish is from a more known builders.
> 
> the Cinelli XCR falls right inline with the $4000ish category.
> 
> ...


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