# Pedal washers or new pedals with q-factor adjustability?



## Kraige (Mar 29, 2005)

Seeking advice on the following dilemma: :idea: 

I just had an pro bike fit that was worth every penny. I need to move my right knee out a few millimeters in order for my knee to track properly. 

The person who fit me said the best way to do this is to move the cleat in towards the pedal. I have crank brothers quattro 3-hole cleats and they don't have side to side adjustability. He suggested that I buy a pedal system (time, look, shimano spd-sl) where the cleats have side to side adjustability. 

One question - which of those three pedal systems have the best side to side adjustability with the cleat or the pedal themselves? 

My other option is to use multiple pedal washers to push my pedal further away from the crank arm. 

Clearly the pedal washer option is the easiest and also the cheapest. The thing I'm worried about is not having enough thread into the crank arm. Is it dangerous to use multiple pedal washers? It seems like it might put too much strain on the spindle. My spindles are chromoly and I'm not interested in ti spindles. 

Anyone have experience with using multiple pedal washers or have advice on the subject? 

Many thanks


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## SDizzle (May 1, 2004)

Kraige said:


> Clearly the pedal washer option is the easiest and also the cheapest. The thing I'm worried about is not having enough thread into the crank arm. Is it dangerous to use multiple pedal washers? It seems like it might put too much strain on the spindle. My spindles are chromoly and I'm not interested in ti spindles.


Unless you're using a lot of washers - four or five at least - I don't think you'd need to worry too much about this. (How many millimeters is "a few"? Each washer is more than a mm thick, I'm guessing.) Just make sure your pedals are tight to eliminate play between the pedal/washer and crank arm that, under power, would damage the crank arm.

However, did Andy Pruitt or one of his cronies do this "worth every penny" bike fit? Pruitt's favorite thing to do is charge people hundreds of dollars for a few pedal washers (Mons and Weds get them on the left foot; Tues and Thurs get them on the right; Fridays get cleat shims), and I'm not totally convinced that it does anything at all. In which case, I would dfinitely go the washer route so you have minimal investment, at least for the time being.


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

Kraige, risking whatever and not intending to take a jab at you, within the realm of good quality, contemporary cycling components, the notions of Q-factor and pro bike fits are best described using the seasonal term, "Baa. Humbug." A few, usually three, millimeters(A couple pennies width) is inconsequential in your riding position, and any fitter who advised such is not a "pro". 

But if you must, I'd try a combination of the three hole adapter / two hole cleat and a dremel tool. Good luck.


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## Kraige (Mar 29, 2005)

*OK - so what about adjustability of specific cleats*

I'll pass on the debate about whether fits are worth it etc. But as someone relatively new to riding (2 years) and with persistent low-grade knee pain, I'm interested to trouleshoot so that I can ride longer, more often and for many years to come.

Thanks for the feedback - sounds like washers could be a good way to go - but I'm still interested if people can comment about the side to side adjustability of specific cleat systems - shimano spd; look keo; time etc. Anybody know? My 3-hole quattro cleats will only move laterally. Does anyone use cleats that they can adjust side to side as well as laterally? 

Thanks


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## tgiboney (Jan 11, 2006)

Kraige

I like you had a profit last winter and agree that it was worth every penny. I use Shimano SPDL and they are adjustable for side to side and front to back. If I look at my cleats they are not aligned an each shoe the same because of the difference in each leg. I also have LA Wedges under my right cleat to make up for a short leg. What a difference it has made not only to my knees but to my hips. Also one more thing I like about the SPDL’s is the wide platform, these are the first pedal and cleat combination that I have never had hot spots or foot fatigue. I can ride a century or more and the feet never get sore.

By the way check out ebay you can get the pedals with cleats at a great price and if you don’t like them resell them or give me a shout and if I can convince my wife I may be able to swing them for spares.


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## Strider (Aug 3, 2004)

Kraige,

FWIW. I know nothing about these things, and am not recommending them, just pointing them out.

http://www.bikescor.com/product/knee.htm


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## SDizzle (May 1, 2004)

Kraige said:


> Thanks for the feedback - sounds like washers could be a good way to go - but I'm still interested if people can comment about the side to side adjustability of specific cleat systems - shimano spd; look keo; time etc. Anybody know? My 3-hole quattro cleats will only move laterally. Does anyone use cleats that they can adjust side to side as well as laterally?


Not to mince words, but I would suggest that "laterally" means "side to side." You might want to by careful using the two as antonyms; someone in a shop might look at you laterall...err, sideways.

Anywhoo, Speedplays have a fair amount of...err, lateral adjustability. They also move a good distance fore-aft, but it's kind of a pain in the arse when you're using the three-hole adapters. (The cleat must be removed, and then the adapter, and then the cleat replaced.) My DA (7800) pedals have about 6-8 mm side to side, 10-15 mm fore-aft. (These are all estimates, bear in mind.) I ride with my cleats moved all the way outboard so my feet are moved all the way inboard, and they just barely don't touch my crank arms. I feel like I could move them WAY out if I wanted do. Looks seem to have lots of adjustment, and I never really cared for their ultra-sticky, very restricted-feeling "float."

As road pedals, Quattros always seemed like afterthoughts. I liked CB's mountain pedals, but their road pedals felt just the same, and they didn't feel right, so I tossed them. You might find that the gobs of unrestricted float offered by Speedplays fixes your knee problems alone - this is certainly worth a try. DA (SPD-SLs, I guess - the ones with the yellow and black plastic cleats) are sort of in between Look and Speedplays when it comes to float, but they're probably about the same when it comes to adjustability. Times are in there some place, too, but their side to side adjustability is fixed - it's either 2.5 mm one way, or 2.5 mm the other. No real adjustment, if you ask me. Also, mine broke. Lots of times...no pun intended.

If I were you, I'd try plain old Speedplays first. If the pedals alone don't solve your problem, then try a small (and increasingly large) washer stack.


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## Kraige (Mar 29, 2005)

*i'm thinking da 7800s will do the trick*

You're right about the lateral fore aft business. My mistake...maybe that's why me right knee bothers me. 

It sounds to me like the shimano dura-ace pedals will give me the side to side adjustability I need and probikekit.com has them for 150. thanks for all the feedback.


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## rossb (Oct 11, 2005)

Look CX-7 pedals have both lateral adjustability up to 1cm and can be angled. They can also be bought quite cheaply now.

I used CX-7s for a couple of years until my knee pain disappeared, then switched to custom orthotics and can use normal Look Keo pedals.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

+1 for trying Speedplays. I have a severe kneecap tracking problem and my knees felt much better after switching to Speedplays. I ride the X1's which have the shortest spindle and the least Q-factor. Speedplay does offer various spindle lengths.

Al


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*Look CX7 has q-factor adjustment*

A couple of washers is probably no problem although its hard to believe that will make much difference. The Look CX-7 pedals are adjustable within the pedle itself for lateral distance from the crank (Q-factor), although they are pricey. Another option is a pedal thread extender. I forget the name of these but they run about $40. They screw onto the crank and then you screw the pedal unto them to move your foot further from the crank


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## ad4e (Mar 25, 2005)

*Q-Factor of Internal vs. External BB*

regarding the "Kneesaver's, a couple things to be aware of:
1. your pedals must be able to be tightened using a wrench, otherwise (as i found out the hard way) you will have to take the spacers to a machine shop & have them drilled out so u can get a 6 mm allen wrench _through_ them!;
2. the smallest size they come in is 20 mm--i wish they offered 5 or 10 mm; &
3. these things are heavy! they're made of stainless-steel. they do offer a titanium version for about double the price. aluminum would be nice too, but no-go.

Now, for my specific issue, i recently purchased a mountain bike w/external bearings...
What I've noticed is that I can ride it without knee-pain, but the same can't be said when riding my 2001 Litespeed Tuscany. The 2005 Salsa has the new XT crankset (using external bearings) while the Litespeed has a 2001 year-model Dura-Ace crankset mated with an Ultegra cartridge-style BB. After some head-scratching, I've concluded it must be the difference in bottom-bracket Q-Factor.

I took some Q-Factor measurements & was surprised at what I found (non scientific, "best-effort" measurements): Litespeed: 140 mm; Salsa: 175 mm. delta = 35 mm = 1.4" or 0.7" per side more spread on the Salsa!

I'm using Time Impact pedals on the road bike, while Time ATAC XS' are on the Dos, such that distance to the pedal-body center is the same for both: 53 mm, & the BB-shell width is the same too: 68 mm.

How can I replicate the same (wider) Q-Factor on my road bike? I tried "kneesavers" (pedal-spacers) but even using the most narrow available (20 mm) they were too wide & impart a strangeness while pedaling. Although I could use some different pedals which allow lateral adjustment, I like the Impacts too much to give them up. So, it looks like it comes down to a "hardware" issue. Any ideas?
Steve W. in Tallahassee, FL


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

---edited due to not reading all of thread first ----


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## Kraige (Mar 29, 2005)

*Thanks ad4e*

THat's some interesting stuff. For me, the 20mm on the knee saver might be the ticket. however, my pedals are removable with an 8mm allen wrench. Would that mean that I can't use the knee savers? 

Perhaps long term I can look for crank/bottom bracket systems with a wider stance. Other posters have also suggested this.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Perhaps long term I can look for crank/bottom bracket systems with a wider stance_


You could, but from what I can see in your cross-post over in Cyclocross, Pauly F is generously offering a good solution to your problem. I'd take him up on his offer.


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## Kraige (Mar 29, 2005)

You're right - it is generous, but I'm not convinced it would work due to the different hex sizes involved. As Pauly writes, the kneesavers only give you 20mm of adjustability. This might work for me or for others, but not for all in this situation.


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## Dinosaur (Jan 29, 2004)

I tried moving my cleats in, which in turn moves your foot out, which is the Q Factor. Fred Matheny said that is has not been proven that the Q Factor really does anything. When I tried it, it messed up everything, I moved them back to where they were before. You might try it (moving you cleats in) and pack a hex wrench with you in case you don't like it. Knees usually don't like changes...as for fittings- I go by what my old body tells me, not by some setting that someone else comes up with..


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

Dinosaur said:


> I tried moving my cleats in, which in turn moves your foot out, which is the Q Factor. Fred Matheny said that is has not been proven that the Q Factor really does anything. When I tried it, it messed up everything, I moved them back to where they were before. You might try it (moving you cleats in) and pack a hex wrench with you in case you don't like it. Knees usually don't like changes...as for fittings- I go by what my old body tells me, not by some setting that someone else comes up with..


+1

My experience has been that for kneecap tracking problems reducing the Q factor is better than increasing it.


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## ad4e (Mar 25, 2005)

*Kneesavers: a minor detail*

Kraige: if the Kneesavers are used they have no cutout (in the spindle) to allow insertion of a hex-key/allen wrench to tighten/untighten the pedal; hence my comment "have them drilled out so u can get a 6 mm allen wrench through them!". they are solid where they thread into the crankarm. 
w/my Time Impacts, you can only use an allen-key--they have no pedal-wrench surface on which to "wrench".


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