# Heard a little bit from the rumor mill on Disc brakes



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

In speaking with some engineers for a bike company, it appears there is a push to have disc equipped CX bikes in full swing by 2013. It seems that one of the big companies has a hydraulic road disc deep in the R&D phase, and another was caught off guard and is scrambling to play catch up despite their success with mechanical discs. 

Just what I heard round the water fountain. FWIW


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

Dajianshan said:


> In speaking with some engineers for a bike company, it appears there is a push to have disc equipped CX bikes in full swing by 2013. It seems that one of the big companies has a hydraulic road disc deep in the R&D phase, and another was caught off guard and is scrambling to play catch up despite their success with mechanical discs.
> 
> Just what I heard round the water fountain. FWIW



well, that mystery mechanical disc brake manufacturer...should just produce a lighter weight version of their BB7-oops...most popular brake setup. Lighter calipers, lighter brake pads-group them with Power Cordz to lighten things up more, and give extra feel. Lightweight rotors amount to little, but-get a hi-line wheel manufacturer-Easton/HED/Renyolds/etc to make a super lightweight disc only 700c wheelset.

I bet it would be very easy to get a hi-end carbon complete bike near the UCI limit, if not below. Mechanicals are all you need for skinny tire bikes. The current technology is more than good enough, don't need hydro's IMHO.

That would put them out in front of the curve, while R&D catch's up. 

Still hoping to see a full zoot carbon crosser with disc tab's only for 2012. I'm ready to spend stupid money, so where's my ride?

the perfect bike, just like my 09 Giant TCR Advanced SL0-full carbon, integrated seat tube, full Sram Red, and Zipp 404's...imagine that in a cross frame with disc's...awesome baby.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Magdaddy said:


> -get a hi-line wheel manufacturer-Easton/HED/Renyolds/etc to make a super lightweight disc only 700c wheelset.


Why do you need a proprietary wheelset? Its easy enough to make a wicked set of 700c disc wheels. (Tune or DT swiss hubs, CX ray spokes, Edge rims)


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I didn't ask. This is the second hint at hydraulic road specific discs. When I asked about one company moving forward on a disc concept with the new UCI rules for CX, they responded that CX was too dirty for what they had in mind. It was also too niche to be concerned about.


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## toddre (May 17, 2004)

Magdaddy said:


> well, that mystery mechanical disc brake manufacturer...should just produce a lighter weight version of their BB7-oops...most popular brake setup. Lighter calipers, lighter brake pads-group them with Power Cordz to lighten things up more, and give extra feel. Lightweight rotors amount to little, but-get a hi-line wheel manufacturer-Easton/HED/Renyolds/etc to make a super lightweight disc only 700c wheelset.
> 
> I bet it would be very easy to get a hi-end carbon complete bike near the UCI limit, if not below. Mechanicals are all you need for skinny tire bikes. The current technology is more than good enough, don't need hydro's IMHO.
> 
> ...



This brings up a good point...If a certain company that made a BB7 came up with a "cross" version (lighter, smaller, etc), do we really need hydraulics? We've done fine with cable actuated cantis up to this point...


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

toddre said:


> This brings up a good point...If a certain company that made a BB7 came up with a "cross" version (lighter, smaller, etc), do we really need hydraulics? We've done fine with cable actuated cantis up to this point...


not just cross specific, road also...much larger potential market.

Think about it-lighter mechanicals, lighter brake pads, SMALLER rotors(have to change some design for that) and a specific wheelset.

Why a specific wheelset-there is no 700c disc only rim, is there? Everyone uses a 29er rim for the application. The last wheelset I had built up (Speed Dream Wheels) used Velocity rims that had an unmachined sidewall-but that extra material is there-doing nothing really. The 29er rims have to be constructed to take bigger tires, and absorb lots more punishment don't they-that means heavier than needed IMHO.

Renyolds can build one now-with they're 29er carbon rim, so can Stan's. A road/cross specific 700c rim could be lighter couldn't it? Currently we're using mtn spacing rear hubs too...a little weight saving here and there could shed quite a bit of weight overall.


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

1 - Hydraulic disc is most likely overkill imho
2 - This is a three part problem - frame/fork, disc, and WHEELS
3 - I think you drank too much kool-aid


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## toddre (May 17, 2004)

It's inevitable... I just wonder if the companies trying to do a hydraulic instead of an appropriate mechanical is slowing the process down


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## CycloCross (Feb 26, 2004)

cable actuated disc suck plan and simple, poor feel, modulation, everything. The only way to get a better service life and more positive feeling modulation is thru hydraulic. Lighter as well.


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## onrhodes (Feb 19, 2004)

CycloCross said:


> cable actuated disc suck plan and simple, poor feel, modulation, everything. The only way to get a better service life and more positive feeling modulation is thru hydraulic. Lighter as well.


Only if you don't know how to setup them up. The only true statement you make above is weight.
With the right cables and housing, there is virtually no significant difference in brake performance between my two mtn bikes. One is cable acuated and the other is hydraulic.


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## CycloCross (Feb 26, 2004)

well actually hydraulic fluid compresses much less than a cable and housing and lever arm would on a cable disc brake set up so essentially there is no possible way that you could set them up to work as well as a fully sealed hydraulic disc brake. thanks for playing


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## Sadlebred (Nov 19, 2002)

Hydraulics eliminate bad breaking in mud. Even disk brake mechanical's cables can get screwed up by mud.


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## toddre (May 17, 2004)

Proper set up can get the mechanical set up pretty even or on par with hydros and if Avid stepped up and did a redesign, could probably get them even lighter than hydros


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## onrhodes (Feb 19, 2004)

CycloCross said:


> well actually hydraulic fluid compresses much less than a cable and housing and lever arm would on a cable disc brake set up so essentially there is no possible way that you could set them up to work as well as a fully sealed hydraulic disc brake. thanks for playing


Your statement does nothing to prove that cable actuated "suck" as your first statement implies. The only thing this statement says is that there is less compression with hydraulic.
I've setup mechanical with full metal jacket setup, alligator housing from price point and yokozuna brake house and cables, and crap loads of other cable/housing choices. I will say again, there is no significant difference in my two mtn bikes. I know what I am doing, I've wrenched on bikes for over 20 years now.
Sure the hydraulic have more overall stopping on a dime type power, but both setup can be adjusted for excellent power and modulation. Your original statement said they suck, which in all honestly and from the exprience of some one who has setup dozens of both types, you're just plain wrong.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

From my experience braking isn't really a big issue in mud....
Just sayin....


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## kalare (Oct 10, 2008)

Why do people constantly bring up the "mechanical discs are just as good" argument over and over? The fact is, the are not just as good as hydraulic. Sure, you can make them work, and they work perfectly fine, but the advantages of hydraulic don't go away just because mechanical is an adequate braking system. This is like saying drum brakes on cars do the job fine and have modulation good enough, discs aren't required. Sure...discs aren't required, but I sure as heck wouldn't buy a car without them (ABS aside), discs just provide better performance, much the same as hydraulics will provide better performance than mechanics. 

Even if you made a lighter caliper, all but one design only move ONE pad. The one company that produces mechanical calipers that move both pads are not common (think hard to get parts) and the calipers weigh a ton. Not only that, but there are many more moving parts in these mechanical calipers that can brake down. Back to standard calipers that only move one pad...well, they're non-self adjusting. You have to adjust them as the pads wear or else the gap between pads just gets bigger and bigger and the rotor is not centered. They BEND the rotor when they apply braking force, not the most ideal situation even though it works. 

Hydraulics are better in so many ways. Self adjusting, rotor always centered, easy to center caliper, lighter, closed system, easy to maintain (set and forget...no mechanical system is set and forget if you ride alot), much better modulation (I don't care if you think your mechanicals can modulate...hydraulics can do it better), much better power (not that it's needed, but with modulation & power, better braking always makes for a faster rider/car/bike/motorcycle...whatever), no cables that stretch, the list can go on.

Before you ask, I have both mechanicals (BB7 and tektro) and hydraulics (XTR, XT and Avids) and the hydraulics are hands down easier to set up (MUCH MUCH easier) and provide better performance. 

On that note, I would expect a redesigned and lighter mechanical caliper from Avid in the near future...but I would also expect new Hydro designs from both SRAM/Avid and Shimano hopefully in the next couple of years that are integrated into their systems once more big bike companies start thinking about releasing cross/commuter type bikes with discs on them (higher end).


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

I am for V-brakes. Way, way lighter and better feel then Hydraulics. Bottom-line, if you think brakes are keeping you off the podium, you don't understand what it takes to get there.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

rockdude said:


> Bottom-line, if you think brakes are keeping you off the podium, you don't understand what it takes to get there.


rockdude Wins!!!!!!!!!
This is a funny thread about dics......
Rumors around the water fountain, indeed.


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## kalare (Oct 10, 2008)

rockdude said:


> I am for V-brakes. Way, way lighter and better feel then Hydraulics. Bottom-line, if you think brakes are keeping you off the podium, you don't understand what it takes to get there.


Obviously the major component is the motor...but if you think all things equal brakes can't help you get to the podium, you may not understand what it takes to get there. Better modulation and predictable power (especially in the mud) can allow a person who knows how to use those things to enter and exit corners faster, simple.


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## onrhodes (Feb 19, 2004)

Wasn't it Adam Craig who recently said the reason most people insist on still using the old style wide cantilever brakes is "because they suck at riding" or something like that?
I don't think this thread is is necessarily about disc being better than canti. I weigh 130lbs, most brakes stop me fine. My bikes and me combined weigh maybe 155 on my heaviest bike. My Cross bike and I weigh like 148-150ish. 
Canti, hydraulic disc, mechanical disc, V-brake, etc. Mud, dry, etc. The only time I have had issues with braking is when ice builds up on the rim or pads in early or late season riding. That sucks no matter what brake system I am using.
For as many people that diss the disc systems, you're going to find some one who loves them. 

Another old saying....first to brake is the first to lose..........


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Well...cross season starts in less than 6 months....
Those rumoring engineers better get busy with their dics...


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

If all things are equal, saddles can help you get to the podium. Better shape equals more power in & out of the corners, gripper tops means no sliding around in ice / mud and requires less core strength, and more comfort means your junk doesn't get bunked. 

I can hear it next year at the Master's World Championship when interviewing the winner. "Yes, Yes, great race today. I was on my game, I want to thank all the other riders for a great race today but most of all I want to think my Saddle. Without my saddle I wouldn't be here today......." 

I am all for Disc Brakes but they will not be in my future for CX. In the middle of a race, when I am hypoxia with hands that are a sleep, I don't want to go into a rough corner with a feathery touch brake, If I am going to brake, I want a fist full of brake. For CX racing, stopping power is not so important, you just need to scrub speed.


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

the mayor said:


> Well...cross season starts in less than 6 months....
> Those rumoring engineers better get busy with their dics...



Seems that the dics crowd has tired of the canti crowd and have now turned on themselves. 

Overheard at the start of the start of the 2012 cx season

"My dic is lighter cause its cable actuated. " 

"No way dude, my hydro dic modulates way more than your setup"

"Oh yeah"

"yeah" 

Cause we all know that important matters like dics are best settled on the interwebs. Who needs a race course?

Can't wait for the Christmas debate of 2011. The 2010 debate kind of let me down. :arf:


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

rockdude said:


> I am for V-brakes. Way, way lighter and better feel then Hydraulics. Bottom-line, if you think brakes are keeping you off the podium, you don't understand what it takes to get there.



It ain't about getting on the podium. Disc brakes perform better for me, I have no problem modulating my way to a solid near back of the pack finish with mechanical discs.

It's about utilizing the bike in all conditions. Good for you that your true cross bike is used only on race weekends. Good for you that you have an exact spare for the pits, that buddies can wash between every lap. Good for you that you have more set's of tubies that wool socks...Good for you!

My cross bike has mechanical disc brakes. It's also my Central New York winter road bike...full fenders and all. It also sees a handful of off road destination races each year, as well as lots of singletrack and canal path miles.

And ya know what, in every one of those damn instances-the disc brakes out perform the old V type-linear pull brakes I had on my old cross bike-PERIOD!

Ain't technology a wonderful thing


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

onrhodes said:


> Wasn't it Adam Craig who recently said the reason most people insist on still using the old style wide cantilever brakes is "because they suck at riding" or something like that?


I guess he was 7th at nats to 6 guys who suck at riding.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Magdaddy said:


> Ain't technology a wonderful thing


It allows people to write nonsensical rants.


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

Magdaddy said:


> . It also sees a handful of off road destination races each year, as well as lots of singletrack and canal path miles.
> 
> Ain't technology a wonderful thing


Good for you and your high performance disc on those canal paths.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

There was some discussion of the technical difficulties involved in creating such a small cylinder to power a hydraulic brake and finding a way to integrate it into the grips or possibly the handlebar. Interesting stuff.


p.s.


Does this post count as the year's "Big Annual Contentious Disc Thread"?


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

Dajianshan said:


> Does this post count as the year's "Big Annual Contentious Disc Thread"?



If it makes it past three pages, you got my vote


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Dajianshan said:


> There was some discussion of the technical difficulties involved in creating such a small cylinder to power a hydraulic brake and finding a way to integrate it into the grips or possibly the handlebar.


The obvious solution is to keep the same form factor of current road shifters but with electronic shifting. That way the space formerly taken up by the ratcheting/wrap of the gear shift mechanism could be utilized for the hydraulic brake system.


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

rockdude said:


> For CX racing, stopping power is not so important, you just need to scrub speed.


In any form of racing with wheels, better brakes=faster. Later braking, means carrying more speed into and out of the turns. Late braking means that the guy/gal behind you watching for your braking point, might overcook the turn trying to stay tight to you. Better brakes=better.

Build it and they will come.

Crumundguns said the same thing about both disc's, and tubless tires for mtn bikes years ago. Today, both those technologies are the accepted-hell...the preferred norm. Build it and they will come-customers that is.

Non sensical rant #2 off


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## m_s (Nov 20, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> The obvious solution is to keep the same form factor of current road shifters but with electronic shifting. That way the space formerly taken up by the ratcheting/wrap of the gear shift mechanism could be utilized for the hydraulic brake system.


God help us all. I think I'll start racing on a fixie. Tmoicog on the disc mount.


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## MTT (Oct 14, 2005)

And you guys are assuming that most Cross bikes are bought to race. I wonder what percentage of them never race, and are used for commuting? My Cross bike will race this year, but I have been riding it to work with full fenders since 06. Thing is a wider selection of disc brakes will be great for that group that wants a fast burly bike to commute on, and all of you racers will drive innovation. Everyone wins!!!

I would buy H disc brakes for a commuter tomorrow, based on how much I love them on my MTBike, and I don't care that much how much my commuter weighs.................MTT :thumbsup:


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## kalare (Oct 10, 2008)

Magdaddy said:


> In any form of racing with wheels, better brakes=faster. Later braking, means carrying more speed into and out of the turns. Late braking means that the guy/gal behind you watching for your braking point, might overcook the turn trying to stay tight to you. Better brakes=better.
> 
> Build it and they will come.
> 
> ...



Thank you for someone that knows what's going on. I don't understand how some people can't see that late and tail braking can give you the edge no matter what kind of race you're performing. Anything that can offer you a degree of more control even it means more control in slowing you down, will get you there faster. I'm not a great racer, sure discs won't make me beat someone more fit than myself who's on v brakes...but that doesn't mean the discs aren't better. 

And MTT, we aren't assuming all cross bikes are built to race, but companies that develop all of these technoligies and equipment develop for racing and then "trickle down". Nobody wants to spend tons of money on R&D for commuter stuff that has only a piece of hte marking and no exposure. Companies want to give their parts to high profile people that can advertise their stuff, there aren't so many high profile tourers and commuters.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Magdaddy said:


> In any form of racing with wheels, better brakes=faster. Later braking, means carrying more speed into and out of the turns. Late braking means that the guy/gal behind you watching for your braking point, might overcook the turn trying to stay tight to you. Better brakes=better.


I agree that "you don't need to brake for cross" is a weak argument. But the weak link in cross braking isn't necessarily the caliper, but tire traction.

Actually, cross might be right at the tipping point. Road hasn't adopted discs because rim brakes (under most conditions) are more than good enough, given the narrow contact patch of the tire.

It looks as though high-end disc systems are coming on board, but frankly I don't think the demand for them is overwhelming. I think adoption of discs will continue gradually, and perhaps never 100%.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...-chris-king-candy_161870/attachment/img_9428#

Gotta find me a Ritchy fork..... and some $$


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## kalare (Oct 10, 2008)

pretender said:


> I agree that "you don't need to brake for cross" is a weak argument. But the weak link in cross braking isn't necessarily the caliper, but tire traction.
> 
> Actually, cross might be right at the tipping point. Road hasn't adopted discs because rim brakes (under most conditions) are more than good enough, given the narrow contact patch of the tire.
> 
> It looks as though high-end disc systems are coming on board, but frankly I don't think the demand for them is overwhelming. I think adoption of discs will continue gradually, and perhaps never 100%.


The same holds true for MTB...I can lock the heck out of my tires with cantis, but discs are still better. Tire traction vs braking force is not everything. It's how that force is applied and the conditions and predictability that you can apply those forces is where discs will shine. I agree that discs coming to CX/road my be slow going, however I believe the move will be made 100% in time (at least in CX)...maybe a long time, but it'll come. Disc brakes have been around in MTB for eons, but only popular and available everywhere in the last decade.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

However, the more robust disc only wheels may provide a real advantage down the line. Not to mention hydro discs make a crosser more useful for other stuff. FWIW. . . 

/still like my Pauls though


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## wibly wobly (Apr 23, 2009)

Are coaster brakes legal? They worked really well when I was 6, I bet they be sweet on a cross bike. Simple to.


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

88 rex said:


> http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...-chris-king-candy_161870/attachment/img_9428#
> 
> Gotta find me a Ritchy fork..... and some $$


beautiful bike, love the wheelset...would love to know the details on them. Looks like some pretty hefty tubbies also.

Come on...who can't love that bike?...and wanna throw a leg over it for a lap or two!


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## Doctor Who (Feb 22, 2005)

I would love to have a hydraulic disc-brake equipped road bike. I'm not the only one, either. 

If they can engineer the braking systems and a good fork, I bet you'll see lots of folks trying them out. 

Remember when Di2 or Campy 11 came out and everyone said no one would buy it? Heh.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*it isn't a cross bike*



Magdaddy said:


> beautiful bike, love the wheelset...would love to know the details on them. Looks like some pretty hefty tubbies also.
> 
> Come on...who can't love that bike?...and wanna throw a leg over it for a lap or two!



it's a drop bar MTB or a Monster Cross. Those tires are dugast Rhino MTB tires


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

atpjunkie said:


> it's a drop bar MTB or a Monster Cross. Those tires are dugast Rhino MTB tires


Who the heck cares what you call it. It's a sweet bike. This semantics crap is getting out of control.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Doctor Who said:


> I would love to have a hydraulic disc-brake equipped road bike. I'm not the only one, either.
> 
> If they can engineer the braking systems and a good fork, I bet you'll see lots of folks trying them out.
> 
> Remember when Di2 or Campy 11 came out and everyone said no one would buy it? Heh.



Agree there Dr !! Volagi have done well with a disc equipped road bike (built as one from scratch), but still cable operated, but upgradeable to hdro's when they come !!!

Wonder when we will see the first of the Hydro STI's .....


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## singlecross (Nov 1, 2006)

kalare Nobody wants to spend tons of money on R&D for commuter stuff that has only a piece of the marking and no exposure. Companies want to give their parts to high profile people that can advertise their stuff said:


> Let us remember that cyclocross racing is a very small "piece of the marketing" with hardly any "exposure" and without any "high profile people" in the greater cycling pool. It's really a niche sport within a niche sport. Commuters and Sport riders outnumber cross racers by a factor of 10 I would imagine. If I owned a bike component company I'd be promoting disc brake use to those commuters and sport riders... many, many more opportunities for some real sales numbers to pay for R&D IMHO.
> 
> I say three pages is too few for this thread... four pages at least.
> 
> singlecross


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

That is what one company rep said. They were pretty much thinking of going straight to general road discs and then if Cyclocross wants to use the technology, then so be it. It wasn't worth it to invest the R&D and other company resources in a niche sport like cyclocross when there are bigger markets to conquer.


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## singlecross (Nov 1, 2006)

Dajianshan said:


> That is what one company rep said. They were pretty much thinking of going straight to general road discs and then if Cyclocross wants to use the technology, then so be it. It wasn't worth it to invest the R&D and other company resources in a niche sport like cyclocross when there are bigger markets to conquer.


Just to help push this thread towards 4 pages...

I think there is a sweet spot here for some nice, practical bicycles to be produced. These will fall into the Disc Brake Cyclocross Bike category but most will not be raced. Think of all the roadies that could be induced into a dirt road bike with discs, or the MTBers that want a light, fast disc 29er for gravel grinding. The bike industry would pull from both these established markets and maybe create a pool of new riders with some practical Cross/Sport/Commuting disc bikes.

Brakes have also been a common hinderance as to what wheel size and width tires can be used... imagine a single braking system (ISO discs) that can be used on a common platform (cross bikes) to vary the wheel size and tire width for different conditions. A reasonable middle ground of tire sizes on two wheelsets (say 700x25c & 650Bx42) for the same bike easily changed out with disc brakes.

And fenders.

Grant Peterson and Jan Heine will be proud... fathers of the next bike boom.  

singlecross


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Oddly...with all this rumorous rumors of rumor of Shimano cross disc brakes...
Shimano just released 2...not 1 but 2...new cross cantilevers brakes.
snicker......


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

the mayor said:


> Oddly...with all this rumorous rumors of rumor of Shimano cross disc brakes...
> Shimano just released 2...not 1 but 2...new cross cantilevers brakes.
> snicker......


Dang, the mayor beat me to it. Shame too, hydro Di2 are the only dics I can really see riding. If they released an Ultegra level, hydro Di2... I'd switch to the other team. Hell, I'd pay money to get with those hot dics. 

Also, since there have already been a few comments posted by well meaning new participants in what may be this year's Contentious Dics Thread, let me be the first to encourage everyone hoping to seriously discus this issue to PLEASE, use the search feature so as to get an idea of how many times and to what depth this topic has already been discussed (and on occasion, sunk to).

Are we to 3 pages yet?


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

wunlap togo said:


> Are we to 3 pages yet?


Let's use unicorns to get there....
unicorns


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

I heard a fact based rumor from a unicorn.....and there were pictures to back up the rumor....
that Felt is developing a carbon cross bike...
And it has canti mounts....
And it doesn't have disc mounts.
The unicorn does not lie.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

This Lapierre is close.........Carbon, CX, Di2, Disc Mounts.



















http://bikehugger.com/images/blog/lapierre disc mount.jpg


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

The Unicorn likes that LaPeepee.
You could use those mounts for a trailer hitch or a rack


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

wunlap togo said:


> Also, since there have already been a few comments posted by well meaning new participants in what may be this year's Contentious Dics Thread, let me be the first to encourage everyone hoping to seriously discus this issue to PLEASE, use the search feature so as to get an idea of how many times and to what depth this topic has already been discussed (and on occasion, sunk to).
> 
> Are we to 3 pages yet?



yes 3 pages...

The significant difference between previous Disc threads and this one...companies are actually engaged in R&D for Road/cross hydro disc brakes. They will be available soon enough...and before them, I imagine many disc specific hi-end road/cross framesets.

joy!:thumbsup:


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## m_s (Nov 20, 2007)

Nothing to add about discs, but man that DA crank sure looks stupid without a DA outer ring.


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

A ZIPP rep is coming to my LBS's Grub N Grog this Thursday...I'll be quizzig him on all things 700c disc brake.

I'll report back this time next week...

Bump for page 4


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## singlecross (Nov 1, 2006)

Magdaddy said:


> A ZIPP rep is coming to my LBS's Grub N Grog this Thursday...I'll be quizzig him on all things 700c disc brake.
> 
> I'll report back this time next week...
> 
> Bump for page 4


Ask him to confirm the rumor I heard about carbon fiber disc brake rotors... Just like Formula 1 cars but for your bike! ZIPP is way out in front on this one!

4...4...4...


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

singlecross said:


> Ask him to confirm the rumor I heard about carbon fiber disc brake rotors... Just like Formula 1 cars but for your bike! ZIPP is way out in front on this one!
> 
> 4...4...4...


Really?!

How would you keep the operating temp's up enough to be useful? Maybe because of the super light mass, and thiness of these rotors-let alone the overall weight of the bike/rider-operating temps wouldn't be an issue.

I'll ask that one, I had no idea.

I'm just hoping for a road/cross specific all carbon deep dish disc wheelst that is featherlight,1100-1200 gr set....maybe even less for tubies. That would take a pound off most bike builds right there. There are plenty of tubie wheelsets in that weight range now, just rim brake versions.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Ummmm...you guys do realize that disc brakes aren't legal for road racing, right?
So why would mfgr's be developing them?


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Magdaddy said:


> Really?!
> 
> How would you keep the operating temp's up enough to be useful? Maybe because of the super light mass, and thiness of these rotors-let alone the overall weight of the bike/rider-operating temps wouldn't be an issue.
> 
> ...


Carbon isn't the hot set up for a disc....unless it gets really hot. It works on moto road racing...but does NOT work for moto off road because of much less heat ( and add dirt)

A disc wheel will be heavier because of the hub...spokes to take the stress of the brake...and although you can save a little weight where the braking surface was, you have to beef up the spoke bed.


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

the mayor said:


> Ummmm...you guys do realize that disc brakes aren't legal for road racing, right?
> So why would mfgr's be developing them?



Ummmm, yes. you do realize that 90+% of all road bikes sold won't be raced, but ridden in various conditions,...right?

When the technology comes, the rules will change.

This constant back and forth about need/benefit of disc brakes on skinny tire bikes is just laughable. Technology, and it's advancement drives every segment of commerce, doesn't it? How does the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality apply here?

Better is better, right?

Not just change for the sake of change, but change for the better. That is the drive for disc brakes as far as I'm concerned. I've put thousands of miles on road and cross bikes-as many of you have also. Tell me there hasn't been any condition/situation where you needed better braking power or modulation. Disc brakes certainly won't be the end all application, but they are step in the right direction.

While disc brakes are all that you see on higher end mtn bikes, I honestly don't believe that you will ever see canti's completely gone from road and cross bikes. Under most conditions on road bikes, even in the extreme wet, you have good enough brakes. That being said, the technology is coming...shouldn't we all welcome the advancement?

Technology is good right? If you don't want it, simply don't buy it.

But enough of the whine ass, bad mouthing disc vs canti for cross crap that appears in these threads. Shouldn't we be happy that cross bikes, and cyclocross in general is the fastest growing segment of the bicycle market?

If that brings more bike choices, AND better components...what's not to like?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Magdaddy said:


> Ummmm, yes. you do realize that 90+% of all road bikes sold won't be raced, but ridden in various conditions,...right?
> 
> When the technology comes, the rules will change.
> 
> ...


Please don't feed the trolls. No need to degrade this thread.


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

> Ummmm, yes. you do realize that 90+% of all road bikes sold won't be raced, but ridden in various conditions,...right?
> 
> When the technology comes, the rules will change.
> 
> ...


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

Here is the problem with this thread. To many commuters and touring bike owners are spewing what they desire and believe here on the Cyclocross forum instead of over at the Commuter/touring forum. Just because your bike has canti brakes does not make you a Cyclocross rider. This is the Cyclocross forum and topics should be about the sport and racing of Cyclocross. Any discussion about disc brake should be looked at through the eyes of Cyclocross racing. If you want to talk about your commuting, general riding or any other type of riding besides Cyclocross racing with disc brakes there is another forum for that topic.

Page 4 here we come.....


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

I was unaware this was the cyclocross RACING forum...

And, everyone here has it wrong. Disc brakes will come to cross and the road because it makes all the current bikes out there obsolete. Manufacturers are in the business of selling bikes, not giving us the best tool for the job. Often those to coincide but they ultimately want to sell bikes and will try to create the market.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

A couple good points above. I have been told the UCI was pressured by a major manufacturer to open up cyclocross racing for disc brakes. 

The manufacturer had a product to bring to market and needed the UCI to approve it to better sell the product (in this case disc brakes) because average consumers do not want to be average and want whatever the professionals are using too feel more "authentic". 

Most recreational riders can ride a disc equipped bike in CX races, but it took the UCI to sanction it to ensure the sales. Everyone wants to look like they could be a pro. 

It really highlights the importance of professional cycling in the marketing of bicycle components.


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## deuxdiesel (May 16, 2007)

I've had disc cross bikes for a few years. Racing in mud and snow and grit really wears out rims and pads quickly. At least with discs, like my BB7's, the only thing I have to replace is the pads (easy), and those outlast rim brake pads by a mile. They may be a little heavier, but the increased stopping performance and reduced wear makes it a logical choice for me .


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I was unaware this was the cyclocross RACING forum...
> 
> And, everyone here has it wrong. Disc brakes will come to cross and the road* because it can add a bump to manufacturer's sales potential*. Manufacturers are in the business of selling bikes, not giving us the best tool for the job. *Sometimes* those two coincide but they ultimately want to sell bikes and will try to create the market.


On the topic of what is cyclocross- 

This one has been beat to death each year. Search the archives to relive the "fun" of this useless discussion. 

Fixed your second paragraph for ya.


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I was unaware this was the cyclocross RACING forum...
> 
> And, everyone here has it wrong. Disc brakes will come to cross and the road because it makes all the current bikes out there obsolete. Manufacturers are in the business of selling bikes, not giving us the best tool for the job. Often those to coincide but they ultimately want to sell bikes and will try to create the market.



On your 1st point, Cyclocross is a verb not a noun.

On your 2nd point, you might be spot on. The ski industry is the worst about this.


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## bikenerd (Jan 22, 2004)

VeldrijdenAddict said:


> > The UCI has a long history of putting the brakes on technological advances in cycling.
> 
> 
> Disc brakes or cantilever brakes? Actually the UCI would probably prefer rod brakes. . .


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I was unaware this was the cyclocross RACING forum...


Do people "ride" cyclocross? I don't know anybody who does. It kinda is a racing community...


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## mattgVT (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW - I think any kind of innovation in cycling is awesome. I think some of these things have just taken too long, and are really inevitable. Like tubeless tires, for example. Less friction than with tubes, better variability in setup, easier to setup than tubular. So why not have disc brakes? I think one of the best arguments is rim life. Let's face it, rim braking is old school and carbon is not the ideal braking surface. I've gouged aluminum rims from road/dirt grim - can't imagine carbon would take that abuse much better. Honestly - I don't see adding hydraulic disc brakes to a road bike as some major engineering problem, either. I mean, have you seen how big road levers are - surely they could squeeze a reservoir in there somewhere. What's the hold up?

Can't wait.


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## m_s (Nov 20, 2007)

The dics are coming, folks. Look out.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

People who want a cyclocross bike with upright bars and disc brakes for commuting/trail riding are like people who buy a pickup truck instead of a minivan.


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## gandhi (Feb 17, 2006)

So far I've seen two team issue full carbon cyclocross bikes. Stevens and Merida. I would not say no to riding one of those.

http://merida-bikes.com/en_int/cms/1559/en_int-team_bikes_cyclo_cross
View attachment 226101


http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...ing-hankas-disc-brake-equipped-stevens_139068
View attachment 226099


/K


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## Thom H (Aug 25, 2009)

Can we end this by saying some people will have nice disks on their bikes and others will ride canties or v-brakes? Please die thread.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Thom H said:


> Can we end this by saying some people will have nice disks on their bikes and others will ride canties or v-brakes? Please die thread.


Or you can simply not click on it and stop whinging? (I for one liked those shots of the Merida and Stevens.)


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## kalare (Oct 10, 2008)

pretender said:


> Or you can simply not click on it and stop whinging? (I for one liked those shots of the Merida and Stevens.)


+1. Team bikes with discs...but wait, I thought no pros would ever ride a disc? We shall see in the coming season and maybe people will change their minds about discs.


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## gandhi (Feb 17, 2006)

The Stevens bike on display is the German top cyclist Hanka Kupfernagel's race bike for the 2011 season. So yes, the pros will ride discs. "You can not resist the power of the Dark Side" ;-)
/K


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

pretender said:


> (I for one liked those shots of the Merida and Stevens.)


Agreed!

I'm really hoping C-dale enters the fray as well. A Super X disc would be extremely tempting.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Hope


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

If wheel makers can ignore the brake track and focus on making a super wheel we all might benefit from a decrease in rotational mass. I love disk brakes and like the idea of cooking a pad instead of my rim. I hope that in a few years we see full on road race bikes equipped with disks.. I'm guessing a small 3 inchish rotor would be sufficient.. I'm all for this technology.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

I wonder how the calipers do in roadsalt? My winter bike has the squealing canti brakes that barely stop me in the slush, I'd love to have a disc front brake for that application if it didn/t seize in place after a winter


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

jroden said:


> I wonder how the calipers do in roadsalt? My winter bike has the squealing canti brakes that barely stop me in the slush, I'd love to have a disc front brake for that application if it didn/t seize in place after a winter



I ride mine year round. No problems. It has seen lots and lots of salt. So much so that my lovely orange bike was a two tone creamscicle. The only time you'll run into problems with discs is in a very sandy, extremely soupy type mud mix..........it eats pads quick. You stop fine, until your pads are gone......then you still stop, but just not as nicely. I've never seen a BB7 completely seize up, but because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.


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## Killroy (Feb 9, 2006)

I have been running hydro discs for 5 years on mountain bikes and after trying and failing to get mechanicals to work right on a new commuter rig, I say hydros are a must.

Good thing I like flat bars because I run a mountain bike hydro discs on my cross bike and I'm saving weight to boot. Shhhh, I don't want the secret to get out that my setup is lighter than cantilever brakes. :cornut:

Specialized was running discs in local cross races, so I bet they will have something by 2012.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

88 rex said:


> I ride mine year round. No problems. It has seen lots and lots of salt. So much so that my lovely orange bike was a two tone creamscicle. The only time you'll run into problems with discs is in a very sandy, extremely soupy type mud mix..........it eats pads quick. You stop fine, until your pads are gone......then you still stop, but just not as nicely. I've never seen a BB7 completely seize up, but because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.


Those same conditions will eat rims with other brakes. I like my mechanical discs.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

rockdude said:


> Here is the problem with this thread. To many commuters and touring bike owners are spewing what they desire and believe here on the Cyclocross forum instead of over at the Commuter/touring forum. Just because your bike has canti brakes does not make you a Cyclocross rider. This is the Cyclocross forum and topics should be about the sport and racing of Cyclocross. Any discussion about disc brake should be looked at through the eyes of Cyclocross racing. If you want to talk about your commuting, general riding or any other type of riding besides Cyclocross racing with disc brakes there is another forum for that topic.
> 
> Page 4 here we come.....


Great minds think a like? Hehehehe

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=216263


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## toddre (May 17, 2004)

What the hell, let's stir the pot just a bit more.
From Cyclocross Mag.'s website...

"Trebon on ’Cross Discs?
Twitter is a great way to stay up on what is going on in the world of ’cross and pro cycling as well. This week we caught drift, thanks to twitter, that Trebon has been testing a disc-equipped, full carbon ’cross rig from Felt. The photo’s we’ve seen don’t give up much, but, the frame is clearly a disc only ’cross bike – no cantilever brake bosses to be found. The only question we still have is when we are going to see the hydraulic discs for ’cross? Or is this one of the after market versions that we’ve seen a few times over the past year that utilizes the cable portion in order to operate the hydraulic disc calipers? Hopefully we’ll have more details soon."


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

That must be fallacious. There is no place for discs in cyclocross racing!


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## joness (Dec 6, 2006)

toddre said:


> The photo’s we’ve seen don’t give up much, but, the frame is clearly a disc only ’cross bike – no cantilever brake bosses to be found.


https://twitpic.com/4bv6gu


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

PowerCordz said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Matt with Power Cordz here. I just wanted to agree that adding Power Cordz to a set up would shave-off anywhere from 45-60g of the total weight vs. traditional steel (or about 75% of steel weight). If you have any questions, let me know. matt at iodupont dot com.


Matt

I've been running Power Cordz on my mechanical disc brake mtb-Avid BB7's, since 2006. The difference in feel, and modulation verses standard cables is simply amazing. My long time mechanic says they feel better at the lever than many hydro's do.

I've never changed over to them on my disc crosser-Sram Rival/BB7 Road combo, but have thought about a full set shifters/brake cordz when it's time.

Great product Matt, just wanted to say.


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## SunnyinCO (Oct 26, 2010)

Page 5, paging page 5. 
Just trying to help out


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## radiocraig (Jan 26, 2011)

love disc (hydro) on my MTB...would love to have even mech on my roadbike


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Here is the first wave before the big three introduce their fully integrated hydraulic disc groupsets.

Eurobike 2011: Disc Brakes For Cyclo-cross Taking Off | Cyclingnews.com


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

radiocraig said:


> love disc (hydro) on my MTB...would love to have even mech on my roadbike


Volagi have apparently planned to realease their bike with the TRP converter and hydro brakes for 2012, as well as a Di2 specific frame.

Whilst I don't like the kludge of the TRP's and similar, the 1st true hydro braked road bike is getting closer. :thumbsup:


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

The "kludges" are very unattractive, bulky, and a bit heavy. Until someone makes a brake handle that houses the hydraulic fluid reservoir and piston, I'm not going to be a buyer. It should be pretty easy to do, especially for a Di2 system since the shifting mechanism no longer needs to be built inside the brake lever - use that freed up space to put the hydraulics and then just slap the shift buttons on the outside wherever is ergonomic.


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## maxxevv (Jan 18, 2009)

pacificaslim said:


> The "kludges" are very unattractive, bulky, and a bit heavy. Until someone makes a brake handle that houses the hydraulic fluid reservoir and piston, I'm not going to be a buyer. It should be pretty easy to do, especially for a Di2 system since the shifting mechanism no longer needs to be built inside the brake lever - use that freed up space to put the hydraulics and then just slap the shift buttons on the outside wherever is ergonomic.


Though on the surface it seems ' easy' , when you actually go through all the engineering limitations of displaced volume versus stroke length, versus ergonomic requirements of grip size versus mounting/assembly constraints... it ain't easy at all. But it will come, it just takes more time than most people think to do it... 

You would have seen it by now if it was so 'straightforward'....


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

maxxevv said:


> Though on the surface it seems ' easy' , when you actually go through all the engineering limitations of displaced volume versus stroke length, versus ergonomic requirements of grip size versus mounting/assembly constraints... it ain't easy at all. But it will come, it just takes more time than most people think to do it...
> 
> You would have seen it by now if it was so 'straightforward'....


We just saw a 10 speed gripshifter for the first time in 2 years. Was that hard to make? No, just no one saw a need for it. Same goes for hydro levers. It is easy. It's not rocket science, it just takes money and hopefully a return on that investment.


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## Killroy (Feb 9, 2006)

OMG, how will they ever engineer it.










If you run a flat bar or run your drop bars like a flat bar, problem solved with off the shelf gear. 

Heck, if you run cyclocross brake levers--I like to call them "Belt and Suspenders", then you secretly wished you had a flat bar set-up. Its a LOT lighter. STI leavers are heavy. Of course, your bike wont look like a traditional cross bike. It will look like my bike.


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## maxxevv (Jan 18, 2009)

88 rex said:


> We just saw a 10 speed gripshifter for the first time in 2 years. Was that hard to make? No, just no one saw a need for it. Same goes for hydro levers. It is easy. It's not rocket science, it just takes money and hopefully a return on that investment.


You're talking about 2 different things here. 

One which had a precedent working design. The other which had no directly comparable precedent design that integrates a hydraulic piston cylinder into an integrated shifter/brake lever unibody. 

Now seriously, you're way underestimating the amount of work required for the differences between the 2 things you listed. Its like comparing between building a 1.8litre 4 cylinder and a 2litre 4 cylinder car in the former and 3 litre in-line 4 cylinder, 2x4 drive saloon and a 3 litre V6, 4x4 drive sports saloon. 

The former just needs some tweaking from its earlier incarnation and the latter requires a total rethink of the drivetrain and layout of its chassis.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Exactly!!!


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

maxxevv said:


> You're talking about 2 different things here.
> 
> One which had a precedent working design. The other which had no directly comparable precedent design that integrates a hydraulic piston cylinder into an integrated shifter/brake lever unibody.
> 
> ...


As someone who's gone from 1.5l to 1.8l including chassis adjustments and transmission revamping.............it's not rocket science. We're just talking hydraulics here and fitting it into an aesthetically and ergonomically appealing design.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

The rumor is... that Shimano already had its designs on pulling the market toward disc brakes and stongarmed the UCI into the rule change. There is a lot of $$$ to be made here on "upgrades"... even "upgrades" from this intermediate stuff we are seeing this year. Brilliant sales strategy. As I mentioned before, the other groupset manufacturers have been busy on their own designs. This shift to hydraulic discs seems to have been in the works for the past 5-6 years.


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## Killroy (Feb 9, 2006)

Dajianshan said:


> The rumor is... that Shimano already had its designs on pulling the market toward disc brakes and stongarmed the UCI into the rule change. There is a lot of $$$ to be made here on "upgrades"... even "upgrades" from this intermediate stuff we are seeing this year. Brilliant sales strategy. As I mentioned before, the other groupset manufacturers have been busy on their own designs. This shift to hydraulic discs seems to have been in the works for the past 5-6 years.


Yes -"Upgrades"

Remember that Pro Racing = Marketing.


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## Plum (Mar 27, 2005)

maxxevv said:


> You're talking about 2 different things here.
> 
> One which had a precedent working design. The other which had no directly comparable precedent design that integrates a hydraulic piston cylinder into an integrated shifter/brake lever unibody.
> 
> ...



Shimano HAS an integrated, side to side shifter brake lever already:

Shimano Xtr M965 966 Brake Shifter Kit 006750020900 at Cambriabike

I'm not seeing a large leap from the M965 to a drop bar configuration, the mechanics are already there. Reorient the hydraulic master location, tweak the fit of the lever and create a hood.

I really wouldn't guess they're starting from scratch with this design. SRAM, yes, Shimano, not so much.

Plum


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Plum said:


> Reorient the hydraulic master location, tweak the fit of the lever and create a hood.


And eliminate the shift mechanism and stick a button on the side for electronic shifting. The hydraulics really should be able to fit in something similar to the size/shape of a current shift/brake lever.


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## Plum (Mar 27, 2005)

pacificaslim said:


> And eliminate the shift mechanism and stick a button on the side for electronic shifting. The hydraulics really should be able to fit in something similar to the size/shape of a current shift/brake lever.



Would dominate the market if folks could afford it, especially for cross. No more muddy cables and operable brakes, what will they think of next?

Plum


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

It will be interesting to see what eventuates wrt the latest rumour missls for Shimano with 11sp and hyd discs for 2013.

With the latest version of the Di2 groupset (Ultegra level), the opportunities open up, especially for road bikes.

More and more disc specific cross frames are coming out (On-One and the tiawanese supplier), and there are now road specific carbon disc forks (axle to crown length is 370mm and max tyre size is 28C) that are produced by Evo in Tiawan.

You can buy them from SJS Cycles in the UK at GBP 199 incl. VAT which is not cheap.

Evolution A647 Carbon Road Disc Forks








[/quote]

Just got an email back from SJS stating that the A647 from them (as per the above link) has an Axle to Crown length of 370mm

Meaning it's a direct replacement for a road fork, rather than a cyclocross one .


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## bb.rock (Nov 19, 2011)

Any word from Trek on CX disc??


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## SunnyinCO (Oct 26, 2010)

bb.rock said:


> Any word from Trek on CX disc??


Did not know Trek made CX bikes, at least for "racing" CX. Have never noticed one here is Colorado at a "race".

Helping out for page 6...


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## ms6073 (Jul 7, 2005)

SunnyinCO said:


> Did not know Trek made CX bikes, at least for "racing" CX.


Yes, Trek does market cyclocross bikes.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

Top level american rider wins on discs...

Tim Johnson scores at 2011 Jingle Cross Rock finale; Meredith Miller wins for 2nd time


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

TJ's first win of the season, first major/semi-major win on disc brakes? But that doesn't matter, have you seen his mustache?


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

SunnyinCO said:


> Did not know Trek made CX bikes, at least for "racing" CX. Have never noticed one here is Colorado at a "race".
> .


Time was, the elite field in CO was dominated by Trek XO-1s - for several years.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

One of the first plastic bikes that I REALLY want.


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## shapelike (Sep 13, 2009)

Saw a revised version of this prototype yesterday at a local race. Updates included rear calliper mounted inside the stays and internally routed cables. Keep an eye out for your local Cannondale dealers riding around on unbranded black 'cross frames w/ disc brakes in the near future.


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## Magdaddy (Feb 23, 2007)

Dan Gerous said:


> TJ's first win of the season, first major/semi-major win on disc brakes? But that doesn't matter, have you seen his mustache?


man that front rotor looks SMALL. You can't even see the rear in the photo. Any details on rotor sizes F&R?

Love the Cdale's! Maybe my next crosser will be a CDale just like my first.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Magdaddy said:


> man that front rotor looks SMALL. You can't even see the rear in the photo. Any details on rotor sizes F&R?
> 
> Love the Cdale's! Maybe my next crosser will be a CDale just like my first.


They're both 140mm. It's more than enough to lock the wheels with a single finger on a cross bike (small tires/contact patch compared to mtb, much easier for the brakes to overpower the tire's grip). With no long descents in cx races, modulation is much more important than raw power and heat dissipation. Of course you'll be able to use adaptors if you want bigger rotors but even on my XC mountain bike, I use a 140mm rotor on the rear and I prefer it to the more common 160mm, slightly better control, less likely to lock the wheel and it's lighter too.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

That is the Cannondale I had heard about. Sorry, I couldn't call it by name a few months ago and get some hard working people in trouble.


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