# Alberto is alright by me.



## Kevy Metal (Sep 30, 2008)

I've usually found Contador's personality and behavior extremely off-putting from his pistolero gesture and special helmet with the colors of all three Grand Tours of which he is a current or past champion, to his drug use suspicion (I don't buy the tainted meat excuse). The fact remains though that he is the best stage racer we have seen in 20+ years. It also must be recognized that he is certainly riding clean this season because the doping controls are watching him like a hawk. If he is using, then he also the best doper we've seen in 20+ years. The man talks with his actions on the road and brings as good a game as any to his rivals.

From the start I've been behind Cadel in this 2011 Tour. The guy has guts and fights hard. He knows his strengths and limits well, and has ridden a smart race based on that knowledge however restrained the strategy may be. But in this race Contador has been the one of the GC leaders to take initiative and keep the race on the offensive. Maybe it's because he is so far down on time in the third week. Though I think if he were leading he'd still be turning the knife into his opponents. 

So, I'm still hopeful Cadel will pull out the win, but if Alberto drops everyone in the Alps and claims the yellow jumper then so be it. It would be testament to his amazing ability. Let the chips fall where they may.:thumbsup:


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## jswilson64 (May 20, 2008)

I have to say, at least Contador is doing *some*thing. I've always thought he only knows one way to ride, which is attack, attack, attack, showing again and again that he won't listen to his D.S. and often seemingly doesn't consider the situation on the road. The guy just wants to drop the hammer. But at least he is doing something to animate the race, which the swivel-head Schleck bros haven't seemed willing or able to do.

But (at the risk of getting booted to the doping forum) how can you say Contador could be the best doper in the past 20 years? I would think a certain Austinite would take offense at that assertion.


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## F45 (Nov 25, 2010)

Best stage racer in 20+ years? Get outta here.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I like opportunists like Bert. I want entertainment and he delivers.

Andy's whining about downhill finishes really puts me off, btw. I used to like the guy.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

F45 said:


> Best stage racer in 20+ years? Get outta here.


Well love him or hate him he is the only person to win all three grand tours in the last 25 years with Hinault being the last. And one of only 5 that have done so. That would suggest he'd be one of the best.

Personally I'm cheering for Cadel.


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## boarder1995 (May 9, 2006)

Doper or not, a good attacking racer like AC does add quite a bit of drama to a grand tour. Anyone remember, "He's off the back now, no wait, he's attacking off the front now...chasing down his teammate!" Talk about not listening to your DS - I'll miss the antics of a certain Alexander V. I still want Cadel to win, but a Giro/Tour double would be impressive too.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Haters gonna hate.

I'd find it hard to believe he's doing something (at least major) while he's pending trial. It's either him, Cadel, or Tommy V who I hope takes the win.

I kinda dislike the Schlecks not because they're rivals, but they never come off pleasantly. They look silly on their bikes too.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

AC doesn't know how to ride a stage race, he relies almost entirely on his abilities to get him through a race. He attacks on EVERY occasion to try and make up even a small amount of time. He doesn't know how to sit back and conserve energy and give strategic attacks like a good stage racer. He attacks at every instance where he can possibly get 5-10 seconds on the field and have the field attempt to catch him. In the end he wins on his ability, which is amazing, to win tours. Not because he's the best stage racer.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

F45 said:


> Best stage racer in 20+ years? Get outta here.


The argument for Contador is not inconsiderable. At the age of 28 Contador has won 6 grand tours, 3 TdFs, and has no other podium finishes (though he looks likely to score one in this TdF). At the same age, Armstrong had won 1 GT and 1 TdF, Indurain 3 GTs and 2 TdFs. Armstrong ended his career with 7 GT victories and 1 podium, all in the TdF. Indurain ended his career with 7 GT victories (2 in the Giro) and 2 podiums (1 each in the Giro and the Vuelta), plus Indurain did the Giro-TdF double twice. Sure, Contador may never win another GT, and if he doesn't, then you couldn't say he was greater than Armstrong or Indurain. But given his talent compared to everyone else now riding, it is not wildly optimistic to project that he will win several more GTs, and if he gets to 8-10 GTs, I don't see how you wouldn't consider him greater than Armstrong or Indurain. It's still got to happen, but I think it's far from unreasonable to claim now that he is the greatest stage racer of the last 20 years.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

makeitso said:


> AC doesn't know how to ride a stage race, he relies almost entirely on his abilities to get him through a race. He attacks on EVERY occasion to try and make up even a small amount of time. He doesn't know how to sit back and conserve energy and give strategic attacks like a good stage racer. He attacks at every instance where he can possibly get 5-10 seconds on the field and have the field attempt to catch him. In the end he wins on his ability, which is amazing, to win tours. Not because he's the best stage racer.


I didn't realize there was a certain way one has to win in order for it to be considered a true win. Was LA's style okay for you? What about Indurain? Hinault? Merckx? Do their wins count, or do they too lose on style points?

AC is amongst a select group with regards to GT racing. He's got a pretty good streak going in GT's right now. I'm not sure he's the best in 20+ years, but he should be in the discussion.

A win is a win (unless/until you get busted for doping) Saying that someone with AC's palmares does not know how to ride a stage race is just ignorant.


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## davidsthubbins (Jun 15, 2009)

makeitso said:


> AC doesn't know how to ride a stage race, he relies almost entirely on his abilities to get him through a race. He attacks on EVERY occasion to try and make up even a small amount of time. He doesn't know how to sit back and conserve energy and give strategic attacks like a good stage racer. He attacks at every instance where he can possibly get 5-10 seconds on the field and have the field attempt to catch him. In the end he wins on his ability, which is amazing, to win tours. Not because he's the best stage racer.


Really?!?! He should hire you as a coach....then he would really be something. I wonder if you could improve his horrible Grand Tour win percentage.


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## Kevy Metal (Sep 30, 2008)

makeitso said:


> He doesn't know how to sit back and conserve energy and give strategic attacks like a good stage racer.


As he gets older he will learn how to do this out of necessity. He's young enough now that he has many matches to burn. Under Bjarne's tutelage efficient strategy is a skill he will likely acquire.



makeitso said:


> He attacks at every instance where he can possibly get 5-10 seconds on the field and have the field attempt to catch him.


Sounds like a good strategy to me if he can manage it. All those 5-10 seconds he's accumulated add up in the end.



makeitso said:


> In the end he wins on his ability, which is amazing, to win tours. Not because he's the best stage racer.


If it's his ability that makes him better than the rest, how does that make him any less of a racer? I'm sure Merckx won many races on ability alone. He of course has more to learn about strategy and asserting control over a peloton, but he also has plenty of time in his career to mature and wise up to these things.

All valid observations BTW, I just respectfully disagree.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Contador, Evans, Voeckler are turning this into a great TdF. Each is a true racer and sportsman. The Schlecks are just sooo boring.

Contador is, without doubt, the best stage racer of this generation and one of the all time greats.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

jswilson64 said:


> I have to say, at least Contador is doing *some*thing. I've always thought he only knows one way to ride, which is attack, attack, attack, showing again and again that he won't listen to his D.S. and often seemingly doesn't consider the situation on the road. The guy just wants to drop the hammer. But at least he is doing something to animate the race, which the swivel-head Schleck bros haven't seemed willing or able to do.
> 
> But (at the risk of getting booted to the doping forum) how can you say Contador could be the best doper in the past 20 years? I would think a certain Austinite would take offense at that assertion.


(this may get moved - not my fault)

All you american-centric Lance-lovers. Get some global perspective - Contador is definitely a much better doper than Armstrong.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

albert owen said:


> Contador, Evans, Voeckler are turning this into a great TdF. Each is a true racer and sportsman. The Schlecks are just sooo boring.
> 
> Contador is, without doubt, the best stage racer of this generation and one of the all time greats.


Correct! They are the animators and we should all be thankful this TDF is still up for grabs!

fc


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Bah. Best stage racer...so he's good at recovering. So what?

When AC reaches the level of Merckx, then let's talk about him.


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## Kevy Metal (Sep 30, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> Bah. Best stage racer...so he's good at recovering. So what?
> 
> When AC reaches the level of Merckx, then let's talk about him.


Yer funny.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kevy Metal said:


> Yer funny.


And?

There's been no such thing as a complete rider like Merckx. Ever. 

Nowadays, there are classics specialists, grand tour specialists, short stage race specialists...nobody can do it all anymore. 

When someone comes along that can do it all, I'll get really excited.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I shall not hold my breath, robda.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

He's a cheat who will almost certainly be stripped of some of those GT wins, along with whatever placement he ends up with here. I have zero respect for any doped rider and wish he wasn't competing. 

And before anyone asks, I feel the same about LA.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

No respect for Merckx either then I suppose. Carry on.


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## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

I've always sort of liked Contador, mostly because I felt a bit sorry for him, having Lance hijack his team and being a complete bully to him. I admire the fact that he didn't fold--that takes some kind of guts. And you have to admire the way he descended today. At least he's aware of the fact that it's a race, not a gentlemen's agreement or a family reunion.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

godot said:


> I didn't realize there was a certain way one has to win in order for it to be considered a true win. Was LA's style okay for you? What about Indurain? Hinault? Merckx? Do their wins count, or do they too lose on style points?
> 
> AC is amongst a select group with regards to GT racing. He's got a pretty good streak going in GT's right now. I'm not sure he's the best in 20+ years, but he should be in the discussion.
> 
> A win is a win (unless/until you get busted for doping) Saying that someone with AC's palmares does not know how to ride a stage race is just ignorant.


LOL this is all hilarious. He's by FAR not even remotely the smartest racer out there but he is arguably the most gifted. To be considered "the best in the past 20+ years" you need to be a unique talent (check) and a smart racer (fails). He rides on his talent and wins because he is vastly more talented than the current generation of all rounders. Lance raced smart with upper echelon talent and a superior team which helped secure wins. Two very different methods of riding for a win. Unfortunately there's many here that will say "a win is a win" and have no idea how they arrived there. It'll be telling if/how Contador changes his style as he gets older as he's made mistakes (bonking a couple of times, numerous crashes in this year's TDF, last year's TT where he nearly lost it due to fatigue) but his talent has been able to carry him. Who knows if this up and coming crop of GC riders will be able to achieve the same level of fitness as Contador, if they can, he's in trouble unless he learns how to ride a grand tour against same level competetion.


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## Wildcard (Apr 29, 2011)

I must say I have never been a fan, but he is impressing me more and more as this tour goes on.

I was a fan of Andy but he is just looking like a whinging little girl!!

GO Cadel!!


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Ummm... Maybe it took Armstrong the rather unsmartly ridden autumn of 1998 to learn. Just a thought.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

kbwh said:


> I shall not hold my breath, robda.


Neither will I....

I guess until then, we've got what we've got.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Contador is talented for sure, but he's not smart. He's got a LOT to learn before reaching that status. Aside from that, he's a doper. I'm anxiously awaiting the CAS decision. Hoping he gets stripped of his wins and banned for 2 years.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Is he a doper if CAS clears him?


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## BGEPizza (Sep 28, 2009)

bert shouldn't even BE here. He should be serving his 2 year ban at the moment.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

kbwh said:


> Is he a doper if CAS clears him?


I depends entirely on the text of the decision. He was caught with Clenbuterol in his system. He claims tainted meat, yet there is really nothing substantial to back up that claim. According to news reports, there were also very high levels of plasticizers found in his sample. That indicated blood doping. Even though the test used for that isn't admissible as of yet.

So I'll wait to answer that question until the case is complete.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

makeitso said:


> LOL this is all hilarious. He's by FAR not even remotely the smartest racer out there but he is arguably the most gifted. To be considered "the best in the past 20+ years" you need to be a unique talent (check) and a smart racer (fails). He rides on his talent and wins because he is vastly more talented than the current generation of all rounders. Lance raced smart with upper echelon talent and a superior team which helped secure wins. Two very different methods of riding for a win. Unfortunately there's many here that will say "a win is a win" and have no idea how they arrived there. It'll be telling if/how Contador changes his style as he gets older as he's made mistakes (bonking a couple of times, numerous crashes in this year's TDF, last year's TT where he nearly lost it due to fatigue) but his talent has been able to carry him. Who knows if this up and coming crop of GC riders will be able to achieve the same level of fitness as Contador, if they can, he's in trouble unless he learns how to ride a grand tour against same level competetion.


He's won all but one (1!) of the GTs he's entered. If he's not the greatest GT rider of all time, he's certainly the greatest of his generation. Even if he loses this tour, his win% is light years better than Merckx, Hinault, Anquetil or Armstrong.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

kbiker3111 said:


> He's won all but one (1!) of the GTs he's entered. If he's not the greatest GT rider of all time, he's certainly the greatest of his generation. Even if he loses this tour, his win% is light years better than Merckx, Hinault, Anquetil or Armstrong.


What does winning % have to do with anything?

I still contend that being a grand tour specialist is just another specialist. There's no such thing as a complete racer anymore.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Fireform said:


> He's a cheat who will almost certainly be stripped of some of those GT wins, along with whatever placement he ends up with here. I have zero respect for any doped rider and wish he wasn't competing.
> 
> And before anyone asks, I feel the same about LA.


Well, looks like you are addressing the entire peloton. You may want to invest your time elsewhere if doping is such a concern. 

Perhaps ping pong? Meh...they may be doping too


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## Kevy Metal (Sep 30, 2008)

I've never suggested Contador is nearly the complete rider that Merckx was. Which is why I specifically used the term "stage racer" in reference to Contador. Merckx is in a class all to himself. The mere thought of comparing the two is humorous.:wink:

And if this conversation is going the way of doping we may as well consider this thread done and over with. That is a dead horse, and there is another forum for the subject anyway.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

makeitso said:


> AC doesn't know how to ride a stage race, he relies almost entirely on his abilities to get him through a race. He attacks on EVERY occasion to try and make up even a small amount of time. He doesn't know how to sit back and conserve energy and give strategic attacks like a good stage racer. He attacks at every instance where he can possibly get 5-10 seconds on the field and have the field attempt to catch him. In the end he wins on his ability, which is amazing, to win tours. Not because he's the best stage racer.


He is attacking every time now because that's what he NEEDS to do. And in the past he attacked to restore his leadership at Astana.

I actually like his ability to attack "just because I can". Now that Vino is retired, we need guys like Contador and Voeckler, and less guys like Schlecks who appear to be in the process of "safe-riding" themselves off the podium.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

makeitso said:


> LOL this is all hilarious. He's by FAR not even remotely the smartest racer out there but he is arguably the most gifted. To be considered "the best in the past 20+ years" you need to be a unique talent (check) and a smart racer (fails). He rides on his talent and wins because he is vastly more talented than the current generation of all rounders. Lance raced smart with upper echelon talent and a superior team which helped secure wins. Two very different methods of riding for a win. Unfortunately there's many here that will say "a win is a win" and have no idea how they arrived there. It'll be telling if/how Contador changes his style as he gets older as he's made mistakes (bonking a couple of times, numerous crashes in this year's TDF, last year's TT where he nearly lost it due to fatigue) but his talent has been able to carry him. Who knows if this up and coming crop of GC riders will be able to achieve the same level of fitness as Contador, if they can, he's in trouble unless he learns how to ride a grand tour against same level competetion.


So you don't like the way he rides and therefore he's not a champion despite the fact that he keeps winning?

Why does it matter how one wins? LA won one way - first climb and TT's. Indurain won by surviving the climbs and killing TT's. The trick is to maximize your strengths and win the race.

Winning matters (and pays) style points sound great on web forums but really don't matter.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> What does winning % have to do with anything?
> 
> I still contend that being a grand tour specialist is just another specialist. There's no such thing as a complete racer anymore.


I wonder what kind of specialist Merckx would be if he were riding today? He'd be one, that's for sure, probably a GT specialist.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

harlond said:


> I wonder what kind of specialist Merckx would be if he were riding today? He'd be one, that's for sure, probably a GT specialist.


I dunno.

He's talented enough that if he were in the peloton today (and probably using everything the peloton is today) he'd probably still be an all around killer.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

rydbyk said:


> Well, looks like you are addressing the entire peloton. You may want to invest your time elsewhere if doping is such a concern.
> 
> Perhaps ping pong? Meh...they may be doping too


You have a point. As much as I enjoy watching the pro riding, it is mostly pretend. It's not quite pro wrestling, but it is to some degree synthetic especially over the last 20 years or so, and the extent of the problem has greatly lessened my interest in the pro sport. When Landis made that solo breakaway in 2006, how could anyone seriously believe they were watching something real? 

Some people have no problem with it (evidently many of the people here) but I have a hard time understanding how anyone who has kids, especially kids who participate in sports, can look at the facts of pro cycling and shrug. You want your kids to involved in that kind of thing for their swimming, soccer, running, football or whatever? That's where the shrug leads.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Fireform said:


> You have a point. As much as I enjoy watching the riding, it is largely a fantasy. It's not quite pro wrestling, but it is to some degree synthetic especially over the last 20 years or so.
> 
> Some people have no problem with it (evidently many of the people here) but I have a hard time understanding how anyone who has kids, especially kids who participate in sports, can look at the facts of pro cycling and shrug. You want your kids to involved in that kind of thing for their swimming, soccer, running, football or whatever? That's where the shrug leads.


I don't want my kids doing cocaine either but I still like the Rolling Stones.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> What does winning % have to do with anything?
> 
> I still contend that being a grand tour specialist is just another specialist. There's no such thing as a complete racer anymore.


Complete....racer....? 

I was responding to makeitso's assertion that Contador was doing it on talent and blind luck, unlike guys like lance who had strategy. A GT winning percentage like Contadors requires and understanding of how the race will play out.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

godot said:


> So you don't like the way he rides and therefore he's not a champion despite the fact that he keeps winning?
> 
> Why does it matter how one wins? LA won one way - first climb and TT's. Indurain won by surviving the climbs and killing TT's. The trick is to maximize your strengths and win the race.
> 
> Winning matters (and pays) style points sound great on web forums but really don't matter.


All it means is his talent is quite a bit higher than everyone else racing in his generation. Think about it...His biggest rival is Andy Schleck. Schleck (both of them) have issues with downhill and can't TT their way out of a wet paper bag. When your biggest rival can't even be in the top 1/3 of the peloton of two aspects of cycling you know his rivalries just aren't as strong as other generations. Armstrong had MUCH stronger and well rounded rivals in both climbs and TT and were above average descenders. 

The supporters keep bringing up his winning % which has nothing to do with anything other than saying he's much better than his current opposition. Think about it this way Armstrong podiumed out of retirement while playing a team mate of Contador at age 38. Contador's winning % doesn't have anything to do with where he stands all time, just means he's racing against weaker competition. Find another argument. 

Contador isn't a smart rider, he wastes energy like crazy. He's been fortunate enough to find an alliance with SS but true to his style what did the redline effort on the descent to the finish yield? Nothing. He's just fortunate his talent allows him to have a couple more matchbooks than anyone else as his competition just isn't to the same level. Fortunately enough he might have a true opponent in Evans that's on the same level as yesteryear. It's quite telling that majority of the favorites going into this years TDF were people on the downsides of their careers from Armstrong's era.


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## chickenfried (Sep 5, 2007)

makeitso made me think of that movie "white men can't jump"



> Sidney is pleased with the outcome, yet he cannot help mocking Billy about his inability to slam dunk. "White men can't jump," he notes. Billy, however, claims that dunking the basketball is unnecessary grand-standing, while expressing a belief that black guys like Sidney would "rather look good and lose than look bad and win."


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I don't think contador cheated. Plasticizers in his blood? Maybe he ate a Pop-Tart.


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## Tabularosa78 (May 23, 2009)

While I don't love him I respect what he has accomplished. Especially given the fact that he's never had a strong team or brother to protect and guide him.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

It's great feeling the love here for poor, put-upon Bertie. I thought I was the only one here on his side.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

F45 said:


> Best stage racer in 20+ years? Get outta here.


I think he is. Clean or dirty. He wins GTs without great support and he doesn't even seem to be maxing himself out. Personally, I'm not a fan but it's hard to deny his performance.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> And?
> 
> There's been no such thing as a complete rider like Merckx. Ever.
> 
> ...


Nobody is better than Merckx. But I think in the past twenty years, clinic issues aside nobody is better than Alberto.


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## jasjas (Dec 16, 2009)

So far....... he has provided a good deal of the excitment but lets see what today brings......more LOVE?


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

*fanboy time...*

IMO, no one actually beat _him_ in this Tour. Technically yes, when we look at the timesheets and all, but with the crashes+injury, scrutiny, and the Giro, I don't think anyone in that peloton could come anywhere close to what he's done this season, nor do I think there was anyone else who people wished so much to lose. 

Whoever wins, I see them go down in history as the rider who won in 2011, not the guy who acutally beat Contador.

*puts up flame shield*


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

Ventruck said:


> IMO, no one actually beat _him_ in this Tour. Technically yes, when we look at the timesheets and all, but with the crashes+injury, scrutiny, and the Giro, I don't think anyone in that peloton could come anywhere close to what he's done this season, nor do I think there was anyone else who people wished so much to lose.
> 
> Whoever wins, I see them go down in history as the rider who won in 2011, not the guy who acutally beat Contador.
> 
> *puts up flame shield*


The guy who finishes 2nd last year goes 4 minutes up at the base of a HC finishing climb with only a few stages left in the race and Alberto choses to not help in the chase. That was a monumental mistake. Does nothing but barely hang on in the other high mountain stages of the race. Tough for me to see how anyone is backing into the win. Andy did what he had to today, as did Cadel, Voekler should have lent teammates to chase


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

Ventruck said:


> IMO, no one actually beat _him_ in this Tour. Technically yes, when we look at the timesheets and all, but with the crashes+injury, scrutiny, and the Giro, I don't think anyone in that peloton could come anywhere close to what he's done this season, nor do I think there was anyone else who people wished so much to lose.
> 
> Whoever wins, I see them go down in history as the rider who won in 2011, not the guy who acutally beat Contador.
> 
> *puts up flame shield*


The guy who finishes 2nd last year goes 4 minutes up at the base of a HC finishing climb with only a few stages left in the race and Alberto choses to not help in the chase, or to go after him alone. That was a monumental mistake. Does nothing but barely hang on in the other high mountain stages of the race. Tough for me to see how anyone is backing into the win. Andy did what he had to today, as did Cadel, Voekler should have lent teammates to chase


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## peter584 (Aug 17, 2008)

Maybe not enough protein on the rest day.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

SilasCL said:


> I don't want my kids doing cocaine either but I still like the Rolling Stones.


It matters when your kids are playing sports or starting a band. If they don't do either, you don't have to worry about it. Me, I want my kids to be doctors, lawyers, CEO's, etc., where they don't have to dope for a living, just lie. LOL I'm not alright with lying either.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Ventruck said:


> IMO, no one actually beat _him_ in this Tour. Technically yes, when we look at the timesheets and all, but with the crashes+injury, scrutiny, and the Giro, I don't think anyone in that peloton could come anywhere close to what he's done this season, nor do I think there was anyone else who people wished so much to lose.
> 
> Whoever wins, I see them go down in history as the rider who won in 2011, not the guy who acutally beat Contador.
> 
> *puts up flame shield*


wait, what do you men "nobody beat him in this Tour"? What stage did I just watch, or did I dream it all up?

1	Andy Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek	6:07:56
.... 
15	Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Saxo Bank Sungard 0:03:50	

If that's not "beating" I don't know what is...


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Fireform said:


> You have a point. As much as I enjoy watching the pro riding, it is mostly pretend. It's not quite pro wrestling, but it is to some degree synthetic especially over the last 20 years or so, and the extent of the problem has greatly lessened my interest in the pro sport. When Landis made that solo breakaway in 2006, how could anyone seriously believe they were watching something real?
> 
> Some people have no problem with it (evidently many of the people here) but I have a hard time understanding how anyone who has kids, especially kids who participate in sports, can look at the facts of pro cycling and shrug. You want your kids to involved in that kind of thing for their swimming, soccer, running, football or whatever? That's where the shrug leads.


I agree. I don't watch pro sports very much at all nowadays. I get my info from SportsCenter at night, but I haven't even been watching that lately. My entire reason for watching this stuff, along with the last 30 to 60 minutes of each stage, is because so many people want to talk about this stuff. I remember attending a dinner for Ernst & Young when I was 21 and everybody at the table wanted to talk about the Orioles. I never followed baseball and knew nothing about what was going on. I couldn't even participate in the conversation. Didn't get an offer from them and have to wonder if that was a reason.

A buddy/client and I were talking about this yesterday. How neither of us really care for professional sports. I wouldn't miss any sleep if the NFL continued to stay on strike. Meanwhile, my brothers spend Saturday watching college games and Sundays watching pro games during football season. Just too much to do other than spending tons of time watching pro sports.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

teoteoteo said:


> The guy who finishes 2nd last year goes 4 minutes up at the base of a HC finishing climb with only a few stages left in the race and Alberto choses to not help in the chase. That was a monumental mistake. Does nothing but barely hang on in the other high mountain stages of the race. Tough for me to see how anyone is backing into the win. Andy did what he had to today, as did Cadel, Voekler should have lent teammates to chase


I don't get what that had to do with my post. Contador was wiped. Only mistake I see is that he thought he could double up on GT's this year.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

It looks like poor Conti's gone down. Blame it on what you like. For me it's primarily hubris. Thinking he was so much better than everybody else, he could win grand tours all year long. Then again, nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I like Contador because of his ability to launch explosive attacks in the mountains. When he attacks it blows the race apart. He makes every Tour he rides exciting. He might be the most talented racer in the peloton.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Ventruck said:


> IMO, no one actually beat _him_ in this Tour. Technically yes, when we look at the timesheets and all, but with the crashes+injury, scrutiny, and the Giro, I don't think anyone in that peloton could come anywhere close to what he's done this season, nor do I think there was anyone else who people wished so much to lose.


I picked AC to win it, and wanted to see him win it. He got beat fair and square. 

Bad prep (Giro) his fault - either hubris or due to not knowing he'd be allowed into the tour
Crashes - part of the sport
Scrutiny - comes with being a race favorite

To me, it doesn't matter if a less talented rider would have finished a few spots further down on GC given the same circumstances. He lined up for the race, he lost the race, it ends there. (Unless the UCI implements makeitso's new system where winning times are adjusted after the fact based on rider IQ, tactical acumen, strength of peloton, and how they look in their team jersey)


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## jswilson64 (May 20, 2008)

55x11 said:


> wait, what do you men "nobody beat him in this Tour"? What stage did I just watch, or did I dream it all up?
> 
> 1	Andy Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek	6:07:56
> ....
> ...


Don't try bringing logic to an argument with a fanboy. Surely Bert was just conserving his energy for L'Alpe d'Huez. He could have put 15 minutes into Andy in the last 100 meters if he had wanted.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Sounds to me like Contador wants to be the new Merckx, which would be like surpassing Armstrong. Why else would he blow himself up in the Giro d'Italia at the expense of the Tour?

In any case, he's clearly off the drugs this time around. From what it seems watching yesterday. The Schlecks may be boring, but they're not *supposed* to be exciting! They're doing their job, not attracting any attention with their antics or scandals. It's GOOD to be boring; granted, Contador does make you wonder what's gonna happen next.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Christine said:


> Sounds to me like Contador wants to be the new Merckx, which would be like surpassing Armstrong. Why else would he blow himself up in the Giro d'Italia at the expense of the Tour?


Because in April when he announced he would ride the Giro there was a substantial possibility that CAS would render a decision in June and ban him from riding the Tour in July. Alas, CAS postponed its decision to August/September. Contador is getting paid a lot of money to ride, so had he sat out the Giro and then been banned in June, he also would have had to sit out the Tour.


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

Steak or not, I kinda like the guy now. (courtesy of velonews)


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

His sheer will to win and attacking style has been one main reason why this might be the very best TdF in recent times. Today AC's courage and made the stage an all out war which exposed the Schlecks for what they are - boring robots.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

makeitso said:


> AC doesn't know how to ride a stage race, he relies almost entirely on his abilities to get him through a race.


That's funny! I believe most racers rely on their abilities to win. If they didn't, they'd be at home on the computer like the rest of us. 

As far as race acumen, maybe it's not his strongest suit, but when his abilities alone are usually enough to win, he may as well just rely on them. At the rate he is going, he will surpass Armstrong in GT wins long before his abilities get to the point he needs to worry about racing "smart."

I like how he rides. If he's feeling good, he attacks, doesn't wait to see what everyone else is gonna do.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Wile_E_Coyote said:


> Steak or not, I kinda like the guy now. (courtesy of velonews)


Like :thumbsup:


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Jwiffle said:


> That's funny! I believe most racers rely on their abilities to win. If they didn't, they'd be at home on the computer like the rest of us.
> 
> As far as race acumen, maybe it's not his strongest suit, but when his abilities alone are usually enough to win, he may as well just rely on them. At the rate he is going, he will surpass Armstrong in GT wins long before his abilities get to the point he needs to worry about racing "smart."
> 
> I like how he rides. If he's feeling good, he attacks, doesn't wait to see what everyone else is gonna do.


I'm sorry, you seem to have missed the 2nd part of makeitso's argument (the part that apparently really proves their point). The fact that AC is only able to compete on talent alone because the pro peloton is currently made up of riders that would end up getting dropped in your local cat 4 office park crit.

I'm sure it's an honest mistake on your part. :roll eyes: (sarcasm off)


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Wile_E_Coyote said:


> Steak or not, I kinda like the guy now. (courtesy of velonews)


Look at the definition on his forearm. My word, he should've punched Karpets and the GC leaders earlier. Would've changed this Tour.


And lol @ those who seemingly just stopped at the first sentence of my other post.


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## tricycletalent (Apr 2, 2005)

Ventruck said:


> I don't get what that had to do with my post. Contador was wiped. Only mistake I see is that he thought he could double up on GT's this year.


That wasn't really a mistake. Contador would never have gotten invited if he didn't do the Giro, he is on the run after being caught doping. The more he wins, the harder sanctioning him will be. He had no other option. 

When was the last time guys could do the double? Wasn't it Pantani in the EPO til you drop era? And even with the Giro in his legs, Contador would be almost level with the top guys, if he hadn't got obstructed early. Schleck whines about losing the tour due to a slipped chain, a mistake entirely by himself. Contador loses minutes, due to outer circumstances (and ok, maybe a moment of not paying attention to position). 

Adding to all of this, Contador has a huge problem doping when he is under close scrutiny, unlike certain other GC guys. 

I am respecting Contador more by the day. I started to respect him when he didn't let himself get harassed by that focktard Armstrong, and I respect him a LOT after what he attempted today. Talk bout going down with guns blazing.


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## Corsaire (Jun 2, 2006)

If AC hadn't ridden the Giro, he would've blown Andy, Cadel, Voeckler, Basso et al out of the water. When he's 100% he's unbeatable. Cadel and Andy better go for it tomorrow 'cause whoever wins they won't have another chance like this one. Next year it'll be AC's tour for sure. He won't make the same mistake, either that or still do the Giro but smarter by putting better EPO quality. LOL!


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

Contador is bad ass! Unlike the shmuck brothers who are always whining about race conditions or staring at each other instead of attacking. He attacks without hesitation... You guys all know what Contador is capable of doing when in top form. Ask Cadel, who elected not to race the Giro... Yes Conti went to the tour less than 100%. He'll be back next year at the top of his game and the shmuck brothers will be sorry...


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## ronbo613 (Jan 19, 2009)

I'm not a big Contador fan by any means, and I believe by the rules of the game, he's guilty of doping. I wish he never would have "had that steak" and instead put his faith in his own abilities. His attack today without the final GC win possible was pretty classy, and socking the stupid spectator in the face with his biker chicken arms gets him more respect in my book.


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## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

tricycletalent said:


> I am respecting Contador more by the day. I started to respect him when he didn't let himself get harassed by that focktard Armstrong, and I respect him a LOT after what he attempted today. Talk bout going down with guns blazing.


That's when I started to really like Contador. And just before he punched that guy, I had been thinking, Jesus, aren't these fans incredibly annoying? Wouldn't you just want to punch them if you were a pro cyclist?


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## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

It's funny, but those guys with the biker chicken arms are the ones that can really pummel you, and floor you to the base of alp de huez, just look at the top contenders (below heavyweight) in boxing, ufc, martial arts, all chicken arms, and no feathers!


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## serpico7 (Jul 11, 2006)

tricycletalent said:


> I am respecting Contador more by the day. I started to respect him when he didn't let himself get harassed by that focktard Armstrong, and I respect him a LOT after what he attempted today. Talk bout going down with guns blazing.


Yep, the turning point for me was watching him win while his team seemed to ride for Armstrong.

And his aggressiveness this Tour was great. Punching that jackass spectator in the face was fantastic!

Contador loses the Tour this year, but I think his performance has gone a long way in winning cycling fans over.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Like him or hate him, he sure did animate the race!


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Conti was growing on me,,, right up til he switched bikes for the tough climb.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

godot said:


> I picked AC to win it, and wanted to see him win it. He got beat fair and square.
> 
> Bad prep (Giro) his fault - either hubris or due to not knowing he'd be allowed into the tour
> Crashes - part of the sport
> ...


LOL you really don't get it do you. The question was posed if he was the best GC racer in the past 20+ years and simply put... He's not. Is he the best GC racer of this (post-LA) era? Probably. Does he have the same level of competition as the other greats? Probably not. Look back into the records and you'll find the most of the other considered greats had opponents who could do well in the TT, could climb with the best, good bike handlers and were generally top 20 of the peloton in every aspect of cycling short of the sprint. This era? We have specialists, and a lot of them. But then again you couldn't be bothered to think and would rather be a Conti fanboi and there's nothing wrong with that. But just because you're ignorant doesn't make you right. Cheer on!


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Today I jump on the Contador bandwagon. He is a defending champion.

fc


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Wile_E_Coyote said:


> Steak or not, I kinda like the guy now. (courtesy of velonews)


Gotta love Graham Watson. :thumbsup:


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## Tugboat (Jul 17, 2006)

harlond said:


> The argument for Contador is not inconsiderable. At the age of 28 Contador has won 6 grand tours, 3 TdFs, and has no other podium finishes (though he looks likely to score one in this TdF). At the same age, Armstrong had won 1 GT and 1 TdF, Indurain 3 GTs and 2 TdFs. Armstrong ended his career with 7 GT victories and 1 podium, all in the TdF. Indurain ended his career with 7 GT victories (2 in the Giro) and 2 podiums (1 each in the Giro and the Vuelta), plus Indurain did the Giro-TdF double twice. Sure, Contador may never win another GT, and if he doesn't, then you couldn't say he was greater than Armstrong or Indurain. But given his talent compared to everyone else now riding, it is not wildly optimistic to project that he will win several more GTs, and if he gets to 8-10 GTs, I don't see how you wouldn't consider him greater than Armstrong or Indurain. It's still got to happen, but I think it's far from unreasonable to claim now that he is the greatest stage racer of the last 20 years.


I'd like to see him get the Giro/Tour double or at least another couple of GT victories under his belt before he is hailed as "great".


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Tugboat said:


> I'd like to see him get the Giro/Tour double or at least another couple of GT victories under his belt before he is hailed as "great".


Nope, he's already proven his ability with grand tours, having won them all. Few have achieved such status. Giro/Tour double is deemed impossible without some magic orange juice that the last winner took in and ultimately committed suicide over.

What Bert needs to do is win some hilly classic races and a Worlds title to be an overall "great", however.


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## Lynton (Jul 9, 2011)

To be honest I do not like AC and never have, I have never trusted him. 

Having said that, he does have the runs on the board and that is hard to dispute, no one trips into a GT win. As an overall package he has a few shortfalls and to me he really is not it, to me this should be someone that is very good at the majority of the disciplines of the sport, he is brilliant at one or two and terrible at the others (figuratively speaking). 

As for the question of him being one of the greatest GT riders in the last 20 years, I would say it is questionable that he is the best but he is up there. If he was more of a well rounded cyclist, based on his result card I would say yes. The thing with questions like that is they are open to interpretation and to me that question requires a rider that not only achieves the end results but also exerts his authority and demonstrates his superiority in all aspects of the race. 

As for the doping scandal, yes it is supposed to be in its own topic but you can not consider this question regarding this rider without considering this aspect of the riders performance. I am not going to go into the reasons for my attitude as that topic is not wanted here but as far as I am concerned, where there is smoke there is fire. I have little doubt that he has been using some synthetic help along the way and I do not believe his story about the steak one bit. So what happens with this discussion when he is proved to be a drug cheat, is he still the greatest GT rider around or is he then just a dirty drug cheat?


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