# Shut the TDF down? Yes or No



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

IMO, shut it down and send a message.


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## EasyRider47 (Sep 18, 2005)

*Shut it Down - Quick..Before...*

Shut it down - quick! Before a few more positives...a few more teams leave....and no one is left!


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## drainyoo (Jul 14, 2007)

Instead of shutting down how about banning for life the riders who have tested positive? That will send a stronger message imho.


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## gebbyfish (Apr 26, 2002)

drainyoo said:


> Instead of shutting down how about banning for life the riders who have tested positive? That will send a stronger message imho.


I agree with one failed test and done, but I wouldn't be adverse to them bagging the whole thing. Hard to believe that they aren't ALL cheating, or at least only the smallest minority are clean. I really don't want to see someone do a super-human effort and then find out that it isn't within the realm of true human performance at all! Felt the same way last year after the Landis debacle. Feel the same way about baseball and the home run record. Who cares if you cheated to do something! Cheapens the record!


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

It's a business. They can't and won't shut it down unless the economics of a shutdown make more sense than the alternatives.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

OH MY! We need shut down all of humanity right now before someone cheats again!


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

ttug said:


> IMO, shut it down and send a message.


The message being what? Throw out the baby with the bathwater?


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

I think the message would be that we have cured the disease by killing the patient.


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## bikeboy389 (May 4, 2004)

If they shut down the Tour, the terrorists, umm...dopers I mean, win.


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## Chain (Dec 28, 2006)

Pablo said:


> I think the message would be that we have cured the disease by killing the patient.


Good analogy Pablo. If shutting down the sporting events was the cure to doping we wouldn't have any olympics, football, baseball, basketball, table tennis.... left handed poker playing...

They need to keep on testing and throwing out entire teams. Maybe even suspend entire teams for part of the season or the entire season. Then the teams will take it seriously. I think throwing out Astana and Cofidis teams instead of just a rider is a good direction. It just might take the cycling world a while to catch on. Hopefully they will before there is nothing left


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

I feel torn about positive tests. On the one hand, it hurts the sport and makes me question the legitimacy. On the other, if riders are not caught, how do we know the tests are working? What a Catch-22.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

The UCI and especially the Chatenay-Malabry lab lack the credibility needed to have a once and your out policy.

The UCI needs to cleans itself up (no more leaks to L'Equipe, for example) and come up with bombproof (no tampering possible) testing procedures first.

I'd start by having its administrators sign as tough of an agreement as the riders have to. Blab confidential information, you lose a year's salary.

But, honestly, the folks that are ready to give up on cycling because of the positives of the last two days--Has your head been in the sand the last 15 years???



gebbyfish said:


> I agree with one failed test and done, but I wouldn't be adverse to them bagging the whole thing. Hard to believe that they aren't ALL cheating, or at least only the smallest minority are clean. I really don't want to see someone do a super-human effort and then find out that it isn't within the realm of true human performance at all! Felt the same way last year after the Landis debacle. Feel the same way about baseball and the home run record. Who cares if you cheated to do something! Cheapens the record!


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## bikeboy389 (May 4, 2004)

Chain said:


> Good analogy Pablo. If shutting down the sporting events was the cure to doping we wouldn't have any olympics, football, baseball, basketball, table tennis.... left handed poker playing...
> 
> They need to keep on testing and throwing out entire teams. Maybe even suspend entire teams for part of the season or the entire season. Then the teams will take it seriously. I think throwing out Astana and Cofidis teams instead of just a rider is a good direction. It just might take the cycling world a while to catch on. Hopefully they will before there is nothing left


I agree that they have to make the teams really suffer from the doping. It's not sufficient anymore to take them at their word when they say they had no idea, or just sack the DS. They need to take a hit from top to bottom, and getting bounced from events is one way to do it. Having sponsors jump ship at the first sign of trouble is another.

The teams aren't the whole answer, but they are a major part of it, as they have definitely turned a blind eye, and in some cases encouraged and abetted doping. Making it costly for the teams is a good start. They are in the best position to stop doping and/or keep dopers from competing. The can't stop it all, but they need to be convinced that it's worthwhile to try.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

The TdF should be shut down for a year pending a wholesale revision of pro cycling's enforcement & testing process and restore its destroyed credibility. Reading details regarding testing procedures (inc. Landis proceedings, scientific articles on reliability of tests, WADA/UCI's own testing rules/protocols, etc.) has made me sick of the entire thing. The damn system cannot (or will not) develop reliable testing methods, or even follow its own rules!!! Landis is convicted (so far) by a lab of questionable reliability & whose employees admitted under oath to violating testing protocols. OTOH- Rasmussen can be unavailable FOUR TIMES for random tests (in essence refuse testing) and remain in the yellow jersey. If this matter were drunk driving in the US rather than pro cycling, Landis would be free and Rasmussen would be gone (since refusing an alcohol test = lost driver's license). Unfortunately, pro cycling's current anti-doping system is like a cross between the Spanish Inquisition and the Pink Panther. As a fan I cannot know if any specific rider cheated or not, but I am convinced that the present system allows many guilty to slip through the cracks and at least some innocent to be unfairly convicted. 

Time to shut the whole thing down and retool!!!!


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

No way that they could fix the whole thing in a year.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

NO.....ASO could ban racers and teams for life from their races.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*not quite*



rocco said:


> OH MY! We need shut down all of humanity right now before someone cheats again!


As I stated, IMO, it might work.

Sure, at first all thiose clean folks get hacked off. Then IMO, and I stress, IMO, I believe that folks will get the message and that those who do cheat cost, themselves and others money. Not just prestige. IMO, I bet that dopers as we know them would lessen. WHY? Because, once you start pissing off enough people, enough becomes enough.

Will it cure doping? NO.

Will it cease all known issues with cheating NO.

However, once you start dropping sponsors and shutting down events odds are if you dope, NOBODY will want you.....


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## ibfeet (Jul 13, 2006)

*Legal*

I say just make it legal and have a super Tour. Then they can drug test and if the rider test negative they ban him for life for not trying hard enough to win....


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Oldteen said:


> Rasmussen would be gone


Rassmussen is gone....


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## roadnewguy (Feb 11, 2006)

nate said:


> It's a business. They can't and won't shut it down unless the economics of a shutdown make more sense than the alternatives.


Spanish media (www.marca.com) is reporting that T-Mobile is questioning their continuing sponsorship of the cycling team. They quoted a company executive with saying: "Sponsonring Cycling is not good for business"...

I'll bet you that will prompt some to action.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

Man, this sport is eating itself alive. :cryin:


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

roadnewguy said:


> Spanish media (www.marca.com) is reporting that T-Mobile is questioning their continuing sponsorship of the cycling team. They quoted a company executive with saying: "Sponsonring Cycling is not good for business"...
> 
> I'll bet you that will prompt some to action.



Cofidis is also talking about pulling out, Rabobank is shaky and Disco probably won't find another sponsor. And what will Astana do now?


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Smaller sponsors are on the way.


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## Walt12 (Jan 4, 2007)

I said this yesterday - stop the Tour now, send everyone home. Who's to say Contador is not next? Where does it stop? How far do we get down the GC before we find a rider who is ALLEGEDLY clean?

Back to basics - why do they cheat? Answer - because there is money and fame to be gained. Therefore remove the money and see where that leaves them. The big sponsors will probably pull out anyway, so what's the harm is saying that there will be no prize-money next year. Make it so they can't earn an living from the sport so that the only people competing are doing so for the love of the sport.

It's gone well past the "kill the patient" stuff. IT IS DEAD. Completely. Outside of the cycling community the sport is considered a joke.

Incremental improvements are a complete waste of time. These guys just don't get it. There is no "honour" amongst them. Even those that are clean MUST know those who aren't and they keep their silence. They're as guilty as if they had stuck a needle in their own arms.

As for the economics of a shutdown, well, if the sponsors pull out (as they must surely be considering) then what economics? It all becomes kind of moot doesn't it.

Time for radical action and leadership instead of this slow, painful, drawn out death we are seeing daily ...


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Shut it down.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Shut it down now and leave all the sponsors hanging? No way. Besides, now it's a bit more interesting to see who is going to win.


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## Walt12 (Jan 4, 2007)

The sponsors are hanging ... close it down and refund whatever is left of the operating budget. I'm sure they'd prefer that than continue to be associated with this freak show with daily black headlines in the world press ...


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

ttug said:


> As I stated, IMO, it might work.
> 
> Sure, at first all thiose clean folks get hacked off. Then IMO, and I stress, IMO, I believe that folks will get the message and that those who do cheat cost, themselves and others money. Not just prestige. IMO, I bet that dopers as we know them would lessen. WHY? Because, once you start pissing off enough people, enough becomes enough.
> 
> ...



Well now that the Chicken has been fried and who knows what's up with Contador... fried condor anyone?... then maybe ASO should send everyone packing tonight. This whole thing is completely off of the hook now.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

ibfeet said:


> I say just make it legal and have a super Tour. Then they can drug test and if the rider test negative they ban him for life for not trying hard enough to win....


Maybe you're right.
This evening's show on Versus was ironic as hell. Starts off with a synopsis of cheating in other sports (steroids in baseball & golf (yes, golf!), and (alleged) gambling & point-fixing by NBA ref), then on to the sadly ever-growing number of doping/cheating episodes in cycling. Then it moves on to a segment on the route of next year's Tour of California....sponsored by AMGEN (makers of EPO). I almost choked on my chocolate milk 
This sport is indeed eating itself alive.


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## robertburns3 (Jan 11, 2007)

I don't think they should shut it down, but they should test everyone regularly and permanently throw everyone out that tests positive. I am guessing this will bring us to the point that it does shut down the whole thing for this year. That way nobody can second guess anyone's decision to shut it down, it can all be blamed on the dopers.

Then they need to vow to be just as harsh on testing next year. Maybe then we can plan on next year being clean.

I would love my kid to get into biking, but racing...heck no.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

Walt12 said:


> Back to basics - why do they cheat? Answer - because there is money and fame to be gained. Therefore remove the money and see where that leaves them. The big sponsors will probably pull out anyway, so what's the harm is saying that there will be no prize-money next year. Make it so they can't earn an living from the sport so that the only people competing are doing so for the love of the sport.


Who are these people that can take off at the very least 3 weeks to go ride a bike around France just for the fun of it? And could we really call that a 'sport' as much as 'rich people riding bikes'?


Walt12 said:


> It's gone well past the "kill the patient" stuff. IT IS DEAD. Completely. Outside of the cycling community the sport is considered a joke.


So the sport is dead because people who never actually watched it won't watch it now? Awesome.


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## Walt12 (Jan 4, 2007)

coreyb said:


> Who are these people that can take off at the very least 3 weeks to go ride a bike around France just for the fun of it? And could we really call that a 'sport' as much as 'rich people riding bikes'?


Sure we could - a sport is about more than the showpiece at the top. Forget about televsion rights, sponsors, you name it.

Look, of course my comments need to be read with just a little grain of salt. I'm being demonstrative to make my point. Rome is burning and the UCI et al are fiddling with buckets of water ...



coreyb said:


> So the sport is dead because people who never actually watched it won't watch it now? Awesome.


The Tour de France is proud of it's status as one of the most watched (both in person and TV) events world-wide. Many people get interested in cycling from watching the feats of athletic achievement on their screens. It's part of the process of renewal. The sporting public (and the sporting dollar) will go elsewhere unless cycling has credibility.

Or are you happy with a small closed community of hardcore enthusiasts who will watch any old tripe they are served up? Well you might be, but I can assure you that sponsors will not be. And for the Tour to continue it needs those sponsors.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*huh*



Walt12 said:


> Sure we could - a sport is about more than the showpiece at the top. Forget about televsion rights, sponsors, you name it.
> 
> Look, of course my comments need to be read with just a little grain of salt. I'm being demonstrative to make my point. Rome is burning and the UCI et al are fiddling with buckets of water ...
> 
> ...


Shut it down now.

They all dope and this sport is a joke to many new comers. I believe Mohair said that we would throw the baby out with the bath water if we shut it down.

Well, the baby is dead tough guy and this circus is a freak show for sure.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

I was thinking today that Levi should keep riding hard and give it everything he has because maybe those above him would hit a dog or get tossed for doping. Kind of pathetic to be thinking like that, really.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

I find the whole situation sad. I look forward to the extensive coverage of a significant bike race that occurs with the TDF each year. Now I am afraid this might be the last year we will get significant TV coverage of any cycling event in the near future. I just hope it does not filter down and harm recreational and amateur racing and cycling. 

I am still not convinced that cycling has a bigger problem than most other sports in regards to doping, but the public perception now will be that it is much worse than other sports.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

No, let the many dopers get caught, and the remaining 3 can stand on the podium in Paris. The other 146 will be eliminated before then anyway!

Truthfully, it will not be shut down. The ASO would never allow such a huge direct financial loss.


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## Walt12 (Jan 4, 2007)

Of course it won't be shut down ... the piecemeal approach of the power-that-be in cycling guarantees that the Tour will stagger on through the final week to a glorious reception on the Champs Elysees ... yeah right ...


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## TrekJeff (Mar 14, 2007)

I do like the idea of One team member pops positive, the entire team is thrown out. Kinda eliminates the knowing and not telling dilemma. It also puts some responsability on the shoulders of the sponsors. As far as shutting it down...come on...somone slap that guy.:idea:


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*naive*



Walt12 said:


> I said this
> 
> It's gone well past the "kill the patient" stuff. IT IS DEAD.
> 
> Time for radical action and leadership instead of this slow, painful, drawn out death we are seeing daily ...


You are not a racing fan. Prize money is important because it's expensive to race. No prize money would mean that we would not get to see our sport at it's best.

And cycling is NOT dead and is not dying. A real fan would see that.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*Lets shut down the entire world*

Lets shut down the entire world. It isn't working properly anyway, There is poverty and killing and war and human loss and suffering, and it should not be allowed to go on this way. It's immoral, so we need to put an end to it! Let's just shut it down for awhile until we figure something out.

This may sound like a completely stupid idea, but not hearly as stupid as saying that the Tour should be shut down. Sorry, but as a long time cyclist and Tour fan, I find that to be one of the dumbest things that I've ever heard.


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## Walt12 (Jan 4, 2007)

Oh come on - look beyond the words people!

What I'm saying is do something decisive! what we have at the moment is ridiculous. You choose the flavor of action, but don't sit idly by and pretend you're enjoying watching the Tour when the very next day the guy you're foloowing could very well go down in infamy ...


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

One failed test = 2 yr ban and hefty fine

2nd failed test = life ban and very hefty fine.

That should scare more people.

and, test them all the time. weekly at least.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Leave it going. It's a sport...it entertains me.


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## A4B45200 (Aug 28, 2004)

Walt12 said:


> Oh come on - look beyond the words people!
> 
> What I'm saying is do something decisive! what we have at the moment is ridiculous. You choose the flavor of action, but don't sit idly by and pretend you're enjoying watching the Tour when the very next day the guy you're foloowing could very well go down in infamy ...


Put yourself in the Tour...you're a clean rider. Would you want it cancelled because of 3 cheaters? Believe what you want, but the Tour has to continue. If I was rooting for Vino and he got caught, too bad. There's still a race to be won.

In your extreme view, the NFL should have cancelled the season and the Superbowl when Shawn Merrimen of the Chargers got busted for steroids. Because, who knows if everyone else doped right?

Same with MLB...might as well cancel this season due to the situation with Barry Bonds. 

Bottom line...cancelling the sports show case event is not the answer...its not the Tour's fault there are cheaters. By shutting it down, you hurt all the fans, sponsors, and clean riders. If you were the top official of this race, I'd like to see you make that call. I bet that will be the last call you make.  What other sport or business shut down, cleaned slate and started over? If you did that, its highly unlikely you'd be able to start it back up anytime soon (if ever again).


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## Lumbergh (Aug 19, 2005)

drainyoo said:


> Instead of shutting down how about banning for life the riders who have tested positive? That will send a stronger message imho.


How about banning the Team Directors when their riders are caught, along with the riders themselves.

It is huge hypocrisy - tell me the teams don't know what's happening. I don't buy it for a minute.


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## Lumbergh (Aug 19, 2005)

drainyoo said:


> Instead of shutting down how about banning for life the riders who have tested positive? That will send a stronger message imho.


How about banning the Team Directors when their riders are caught, along with the riders themselves, and yanking ProTour licenses? 

It is huge hypocrisy - tell me the teams don't know what's happening. I don't buy it for a minute.


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## GearDaddy (Apr 1, 2004)

C'mon, you guys have weak stomachs. The reality is that there are as many dopers as the years where Anqetiel, Merckx, Thevenet, Delgado, Riis, and Pantani won. It's just been swept under the rug for a long time.

This year guys are actually getting popped with evidence of doping, and teams are actually going beyond what they've done in the past in dealing with the conduct of riders. This year's TDF shouldn't be shut down, rather it should be applauded.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2007)

Sad thing is that all this bad publicity is bound to turn off youngster watching the tour and maybe getting into cycling in the future.

It is a shame because cycling can only blame itself...those who made a choice to dope did just that; a choice.....that it may destroy the sport in the future must have seemed (to them) a fair price.

Myself I will still watch the top 3 battle it out with anticipation, but for sure the whole thing has lost much sheen...this seems even worse than '98 for me.....a descent into travesty.


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## Walt12 (Jan 4, 2007)

I watched a full replay of the battle up L'Aubisque. What a fantastic stage, yet at the same time in the back of my mind I knew already Rasmussen's fate. It just takes all the joy out of watching it. I am a dedicated follower, how cynical must the casual obsever be? The types of people that the sponsors pay good money to have their names put in front of?


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## team_sheepshead (Jan 17, 2003)

+1 Shut down the entire sport until all parties (cyclists, organizers and sponsors) can reach agreement on universial principles for testing, punishment, eligibility, etc. Oldteen is right in that many guilty are slipping through, and likely more than a few innocent are being falsely punished.

People claim that catching cheats is good for the sport...even in the middle of the TdF. Try telling that to the sponsors who are now stuck in this freakshow. Marketing people are going to have a hard time justifying these sponsorship dollars now. I think we'll see sponsors drop in droves.

Again, you are looking at a sport that really seems to have no leadership whatsoever. Teams are running their own anti-doping programs, national federations are running others, the UCI and WADA are fighting over anti-doping measures. Apparently, Rabobank didn't even call Pat McQuaid at the UCI to tell him they were pulling out. This is the very epitome of one f'ed up organization.

I remember baseball in the 1980s when we had labor disputes, strikes, players on trial for dealing cocaine, etc. A low point akin to what's happening in cycling now. But cycling's troubles are different somehow. Doping has been ingrained in the sport for more than a century, and directly affects outcomes. How to change this? Shut it down for a year until they have a plan.

As it is, cycling has become World Wresting Entertainment.



Oldteen said:


> The TdF should be shut down for a year pending a wholesale revision of pro cycling's enforcement & testing process and restore its destroyed credibility. Reading details regarding testing procedures (inc. Landis proceedings, scientific articles on reliability of tests, WADA/UCI's own testing rules/protocols, etc.) has made me sick of the entire thing. The damn system cannot (or will not) develop reliable testing methods, or even follow its own rules!!! Landis is convicted (so far) by a lab of questionable reliability & whose employees admitted under oath to violating testing protocols. OTOH- Rasmussen can be unavailable FOUR TIMES for random tests (in essence refuse testing) and remain in the yellow jersey. If this matter were drunk driving in the US rather than pro cycling, Landis would be free and Rasmussen would be gone (since refusing an alcohol test = lost driver's license). Unfortunately, pro cycling's current anti-doping system is like a cross between the Spanish Inquisition and the Pink Panther. As a fan I cannot know if any specific rider cheated or not, but I am convinced that the present system allows many guilty to slip through the cracks and at least some innocent to be unfairly convicted.
> 
> Time to shut the whole thing down and retool!!!!


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## team_sheepshead (Jan 17, 2003)

Your NFL and MLB analogies are interesting, but don't work. What's happening in cycling is akin to Peyton Manning being pulled from the Super Bowl at halftime because he allegedly lied about his whereabouts. Or Barry Bonds stepping up to the plate with 754 home runs and not only getting fired by the Giants, but having MLB force the Giants to forfeit the game, because he failed a blood test.

The NFL and MLB are on one end of the spectrum: they only pay lip service to doping. Cycling is at the other extreme, with confused doping policy (policies) rife with rumor, innuendo and politics, dirty labs, shady journalists and cheating doctors.

The answer must lie somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.



A4B45200 said:


> Put yourself in the Tour...you're a clean rider. Would you want it cancelled because of 3 cheaters? Believe what you want, but the Tour has to continue. If I was rooting for Vino and he got caught, too bad. There's still a race to be won.
> 
> In your extreme view, the NFL should have cancelled the season and the Superbowl when Shawn Merrimen of the Chargers got busted for steroids. Because, who knows if everyone else doped right?
> 
> ...


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

team_sheepshead said:


> Your NFL and MLB analogies are interesting, but don't work. What's happening in cycling is akin to Peyton Manning being pulled from the Super Bowl at halftime because he allegedly lied about his whereabouts. Or Barry Bonds stepping up to the plate with 754 home runs and not only getting fired by the Giants, but having MLB force the Giants to forfeit the game, because he failed a blood test.
> 
> The NFL and MLB are on one end of the spectrum: they only pay lip service to doping. Cycling is at the other extreme, with confused doping policy (policies) rife with rumor, innuendo and politics, dirty labs, shady journalists and cheating doctors.
> 
> The answer must lie somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.


There's a clear answer to the problem of losing a leader mid-race: have one day races only. These GTs with leaders, testing between stages, etc. are no good because of all the positive tests and issues surrounding them.

Cycling has a lot of problems (lack of rider union, lack of unity against doping issues, disagreements between UCI and race organizers) but I see no confusion on doping policy or dirty labs or journalists...sounds like typical American propaganda.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

TrekJeff said:


> I do like the idea of One team member pops positive, the entire team is thrown out. Kinda eliminates the knowing and not telling dilemma. It also puts some responsability on the shoulders of the sponsors. As far as shutting it down...come on...somone slap that guy.:idea:


So you have a older rider, on the verge of retirement, trying to stretch it out for one more year, who hits the dope. Johan Museeuw, perhaps. What is the risk to him? If he gets caught, he simply retires. Suspend him forever--it's irrelevant. Who does get punished under your plan? The team. Everyone except the doping rider gets punished. Where is the fairness in that?


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## TrekJeff (Mar 14, 2007)

mohair_chair said:


> So you have a older rider, on the verge of retirement, trying to stretch it out for one more year, who hits the dope. Johan Museeuw, perhaps. What is the risk to him? If he gets caught, he simply retires. Suspend him forever--it's irrelevant. Who does get punished under your plan? The team. Everyone except the doping rider gets punished. Where is the fairness in that?



Very good point, that would be one flaw, then again you'll never please everyone. I guess a severe monitary fine for such an individual..who knows, but very good point. Outside of that, what else do you see?


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