# New company/shop looking for feedback



## canthidefromme (Jun 29, 2006)

One of my acquaintances is part of a group that has started up a company called Mission Bicycles (http://missionbicycle.com/). So far they're planning on producing just 1 steel, lugged, fixed bike based on a sort of San Fransisco fixed gear aesthetic and running on a philosophy of highly customizable colors/parts. Just this week, they finished their prototype build, and it looks pretty sharp. 

I'm not trying to push the bikes/get free advertising or anything like that; in fact, you couldn't buy a bike yet anyways. I was just, on their behalf, trying to get some feedback from the rbr fixed community. Check out the website and look at the pretty pictures.

Thanks


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

first off, that bike pictured is not lugged... in fact, it looks a whole lot like an IRO. I'd suspect they get few pre-orders with as little details as are on the website... is the only hook pretty "custom" colors for all the bits?


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## Applesauce (Aug 4, 2007)

Think as hard about the geometry and the way the bike is going to handle and be used than about how cool it or its parts will be. Looking at it right now, I'm guessing it has about a 72 degree head angle and 45-50 mm rake. To me, that doesn't seem like the best idea for an urban fixie that, like all other urban fixies, is trying its hardest to nip at the heels of proper track cycling without actually requiring the commitment of a proper track bike. Or maybe it does... Richard Sachs has said something to the effect of, "build lots and lots of bikes and ride lots and lots of bikes, and then start thinking about how bikes work, and then start designing bikes." Your bike doesn't, to me, exude an ethos like that.

And as an aside, regardless of their dispensibility to you, have your powder coaters wear masks. Or at least don't publish pictures of them huffing powdercoat.


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## JohnnyTooBad (Apr 5, 2004)

I just bought my first SS/Fixie (picked it up yesterday), and that bike would not have made the list. There's a lot of other bikes at much lower price points that fill the same niche. The idea of custom colors is noce, but considering I payed under $350 for my new bike, I could get a damn nice custom powdercoat job and still have spent a whole lot less. I don't like flat/rider bars either, but that's easy enough to swap. They should have bullhorns standard, with flat or drops as options.

There is no info on the bike at the site (or not easy to find). All the specs and components should be listed right up front. A $950 fixie should be pretty high-end. And high-end bikes need to have details listed. People in the market for something like that, know what's what on a bike.

In other words.... Naaah.


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## canthidefromme (Jun 29, 2006)

Lugged: for some reason I thought it would be lugged. I guess they scrapped that idea. That frame is clearly not lugged.

Preorders: They're only producing small production runs so far, and according to the website, have been successfully receiving a high percentage of pre-orders.

Bars: I said the same thing. Drops, instead of risers, are also an option. I'm sure horns could be accommodated as well.

Components/price: I don't know what kind of components are/will be on the bikes.

Also, if you're interested and have some design skills, you can have the opportunity to design a decal kit. Check it out: http://missionbicycle.com/design_projecthttp://missionbicycle.com/design_project


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Reading the "How Mission Bicycles Began" page, it does not appear that this guys knows much about the bicycle industry. From what I can tell, he never even heard of Interbike until September 2007.

His primary (if not singular) focus seems to be aesthetics, which makes the POS quill stem on that prototype all the more sad. He seems to want to make a semi-production version of the kludged together beaters seen on FGG, powdercoat them and sell them for 30% more than one can buy a decent bike with some credibility.

I hate to pile on a guy with a passion for bikes and a desire to make a living, but this reeks of shallow pop-culture apropriation. My advice: get that site down before BSNYC gets whiff of it.


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## Val_Garou (Apr 30, 2002)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> My advice: get that site down before BSNYC gets whiff of it.


Surely someone's sent him a link by now, no?


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Val_Garou said:


> Surely someone's sent him a link by now, no?


I'm sure. Very sure.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

looks like a sanchez, but more expensive. and not galvanized.
edited to add that after looking around the site, specifically the order page, I think theyll probably do great. it's a perfect bike for someone that's not actually going to <i>ride</i> their bike but instead <i>be seen with</i> their bike. allowing the buyer to choose the build components based not on something practical but rather color is brilliant. 
the mision cycle #1
<img src="https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2245/1736260973_4e2357c8bd.jpg?v=0">

the sanchez
<img src="https://www.swobo.com/cImages/Website_0/type_543/SBB08002_116543.jpg">


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

I perused the website for a little while, and saw nothing in any of the pictures of "the shop" that resembled a jig or any frame-building equipment. 

By "building" bikes, do these guys mean "painting" them and hanging parts?


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

*About Mission Bicycles*

My name is Zack, and I'm the guy helping start Mission Bicycles.

I have very little business or credentials in posting on this forum or any other bike forum for that matter. I've never assembled a bike. I've never raced a bike. And despite the fact I've been very involved in starting a bicycle company I doubt I will ever know as much about bikes and the bicycle industry as most of you on this forum.... at least not for a very long time. I do however know a good deal about starting businesses, and designing + marketing product and I love biking my POS stock Fuji track bike around San Francisco.

That said, my business partner John is a different story. He has been building, racing, and selling bicycles since he was 14. He helped get a successful retail bike shop off the ground couple years ago and knows a great deal about building bicycles and the bicycle industry.

Let me also preface this by saying we don't consider *you* or anyone who hand assembles bikes our customers. We started the company as way to get awesome bikes into the hands of people that don't have the time our knowledge to build one themselves. I'm not expecting to change anyones value judgments on what amount of bike is worth what amount of money - that's relative to the person and their situation and people in your situation probably won't buy our bicycle, and that's just fine with us.

I'll do my best to answer questions and criticisms posted here. I would love it if you could keep the comments and criticism specific and substantial as opposed to snarky and spiteful, but hey it's the internet - chances are I will never meet you and I'm sure that's just fine with the both of us.

_Reading the "How Mission Bicycles Began" page, it does not appear that this guys knows much about the bicycle industry. From what I can tell, he never even heard of Interbike until September 2007._


No. If you read the post you'll notice that John never mentioned anything like 'hearing about Interbike for the first time'. He simply had a conversation with a friend in which he came to realization that it would be very wise to figure out how to get down to Interbike that year. What helped spurn this was the fact that his friend who was talking to was going and offered to help crash him and help get him entrence tickets.

_
There is no info on the bike at the site (or not easy to find). All the specs and components should be listed right up front.
_

Good call. We will be updating our website today or tomorrow to include the specs for the bike on the order form. 

Here they are:

frame - Tig welded chromoly frame
rim- Velocity Deep-V
hubs- Formula Track sealed-cartridge bearing
spokes- Dt Swiss 
brake - Tektro road caliper brake
crank- Origin 46t track crankset
bottom bracket- Shimano UN-54
chain- KMC 1/2 x 1/8 
cog- 16tooth steel cog
seatpost- 27.2 Alloy micro-adjust post
seat- Odyssey Mike Aitken saddle
tire- Vittoria Rubino 700 x 23c
grips- Oury MTB grip
handlebar- allow riser/ track drop-bar
stem- 1-1/8 threadless allow stem
headset- 1-1/8 sealed threadless headset
pedals- wellgo platform pedal


If you add up the cost of our components and the cost of a powder-coat the retail value of our bikes is about $100 less than what you'd pay to build it yourself.

_
His primary (if not singular) focus seems to be aesthetics, which makes the POS quill stem on that prototype all the more sad. He seems to want to make a semi-production version of the kludged together beaters seen on FGG, powdercoat them and sell them for 30% more than one can buy a decent bike with some credibility.
--
Looks like a sanchez, but more expensive. and not galvanized.
--
There's a lot of other bikes at much lower price points that fill the same niche. The idea of custom colors is noce, but considering I payed under $350 for my new bike, I could get a damn nice custom powdercoat job and still have spent a whole lot less.
_

Our bicycles are different than the stock fixies you will see in store: 

1) They have higher quality components 
2) They look a hell of a lot better
3) We have a lot of customization options - different parts and color options
4) They cost $950 which is a lot more than $600 and $350

You get what you pay for and if you don't want color customization and you don't care much about aesthetics you probably shouldn't buy our bikes. 

_First off, that bike pictured is not lugged... in fact, it looks a whole lot like an IRO_

It in fact is an IRO. We were originally planning on getting lugged frames but our manufacturer fell through and got a really good deal with IRO. That and IRO is a real pleasure to work with.

_I perused the website for a little while, and saw nothing in any of the pictures of "the shop" that resembled a jig or any frame-building equipment. By "building" bikes, do these guys mean "painting" them and hanging parts?_

No, we don't design our frames and we certainly don't manufacturer them. Some day (maybe). We think our "value" is else where -- getting affordable high quality awesome looking bikes in our customers in hands as quickly as possible. Manufacturing the frames from scratch would not allow us to do that.

_Have your powder coaters wear masks. Or at least don't publish pictures of them huffing powdercoat._

Thanks for the safety tip. These are not 'our' powder coaters -- they work for an existing powdercoating company we work with. That said I'll mention it next time we see them.

_My advice: get that site down before BSNYC gets whiff of it._

Ha! We're huge Bike Snob fans. If he wants to rip on us honestly I'd be fine with it, it'd probably be hilarious and help us sell a few bikes. *shrug*


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## SSSasky (Apr 8, 2004)

So, let me get this straight. You're actually just reselling IROs with different paint jobs.

Man, my lbs will order you an EAI brassknuckle frame in any colour you want, and build it with basically exactly the same parts (any colour deep-vs) as your stock frame (except nicer cranks), and sell it for $625. Change a couple minor things and it's $550. $950 is outrageous. I know what the cost is like on all that stuff, and you have almost no overhea

They could probably beat your price even if they were doing Bareknuckles, which is definitely a much nicer, prettier frame.

Here's a sneak peak of a prototype for 2008 from Steelwool Bicycles, a company owned by some of my best friends:










It's retail price will only be marginally higher (about $100), and *it is lugged*. It's a custom designed frame with some really innovative features and a sick 7-step wet paint process. Spec pretty similar to the above, but with Nitto track drops and a leather seat. Seems like a lot better value to me.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

SSSasky: Respectfully, I don't think you understand how (bike) business works. There is a reason brassknuckle frames retail for ~$600 but if your a manufacturer you can get almost all the parts together for a brassknuckle bike for about the same price. The difference between the retail price of bikes and the manufacturing cost of components is the margin, and it pays for the cost of designing, assembling, distributing, and marketing of bicycles and parts -- and it keeps the industry alive. 

If our customers wanted to they could go out and purchase the components of our bicycle and hand assemble them. It would cost them about $100 more to buy the components retail than the cost of our bicycles (including the custom powdercoat). This doesn't include time spent helping fit customers for bikes and assembling components. I know of a few shops selling built up brassknuckles in stock colors for ~$1,200 with comparable components. So no, I don't at all feel that we ripping people off.

That Steelwool bike looks hot -- can't wait to see it in person. We have plans for a lugged Mission Bicycle in the relatively near future.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

zacker said:


> Our bicycles are signifigantly different than the stock fixies you will see in store:
> 
> 1) They have higher quality components
> 2) They look a hell of a lot better
> ...


Which components are higher quality? The Deep Vs are the only stand-out on that list. Everything else is generic "alloy" this or that. Determining the retail price by adding up the cost of buying everything separately at retail further suggests that this company doesn't know anythig about the bike industry. _The whole point of buying a complete bike is that it is *significantly* cheaper than buying everything separately_. Knocking off a lousy $100 isn't going to fly for anyone who knows their seat-tube from a hole in the ground. And that doesn't even take into account that most people cobble this type of bike together from various close-out/free/parts bin components. Nobody goes out and pays full retail for a complete Tranz-X build kit for their IRO frameset.

_Specifically_, your prices are way too high and the rationale is fallacious. If your company needs to charge $950 for that build, it is not ready for prime time. You need to do some more research into the industry, develop some better connections and come back to the table when you can add more than $100 of value on a complete bike.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

zacker said:


> frame - Tig welded chromoly frame
> rim- Velocity Deep-V
> hubs- Formula Track sealed-cartridge bearing
> spokes- Dt Swiss
> ...


I love a good "pile on"

I'm not even a Fixie type but it is clear that there is nothing special about that build.

You can get a geared bike with better components for that price.

What kind of color options are available at that price. Single color Powder, Panels, Flames?

Does the price include a reach around?


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## fiddlr40 (Sep 18, 2007)

Good luck to you! The world willl be a better place when more small shop bike builder/sellers can survive, kinda like the micro-brewery business of 20 years ago. 

That being said, I don't think I see much of a niche for the bike you're producing. I think the harder-core fixed gear riders like to build/kludge together their own bikes, which leaves you with a market of less knowledgeable types, but that may be enough.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

PeanutButterSandwitch: 


_Which components are higher quality? The Deep Vs are the only stand-out on that list._

Here is the retail price difference between the comparable components of the Mission Bicycle and the Swobo Sanchez. 

Headset: 
Tange-Seiki, threadless vs. Ritchey Headset
$12 difference

Brake:
Nothing vs. Tektro Cross brake lever + Shimano Sora brake: 
$40 difference

Crankset: 
TruVativ Touro, 48T vs Sugino RD-48 crankset
$50 difference

Seat:
Swobo Cart Saddle vs, Odyssey Mike Aitken Seat 
$25 difference

Wheels:
Alex vs Deep V
$40 difference

Tires: 
Continental UltraSport, 700x23C vs. Vittoria Rubino 700 x 23c
$40 difference

Paint:
1 color vs. Custom powdercoat
$150 difference

Total: $357

_The whole point of buying a complete bike is that it is significantly cheaper than buying everything separately. Knocking off a lousy $100 isn't going to fly for anyone who knows their seat-tube from a hole in the ground. And that doesn't even take into account that most people cobble this type of bike together from various close-out/free/parts bin components. Nobody goes out and pays full retail for a complete Tranz-X build kit for their IRO frameset. _

Again:

* The retail cost of our bicycle is comparable to the cost of other stock bikes - ours cost more but so do the components, not to mention the added time and costs required for us to customize these bikes, hand build the wheels, and build them to-order.
* There are a lot of people out there that would rather buy a new bicycle than build it from used components. Most bicycle owners don't have the knowledge or desire to be their own bike mechanics.

_Specifically, your prices are way too high and the rationale is fallacious. If your company needs to charge $950 for that build, it is not ready for prime time. You need to do some more research into the industry, develop some better connections and come back to the table when you can add more than $100 of value on a complete bike._

If the company fails you may have a point. So far it looks like you're wrong.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

*Thanks Fiddler!*

Agreed that there isn't really an existing niche for store-bought fixies -- most of the fixed gear riders currently build their own. We're hoping to help change that. In the end we hope this translates to more people who love their bikes and love bicycling even if they _"don't know the difference between their seat-tube from a hole in the ground"_


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

What about top tube pads and cards in the spokes?


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Zacker, I hate to say it, but here goes: "meh." You're entering a very crowded marketplace and I just don't see much that makes your bikes really stand out from other stock fixies. Yeah, year, you're bikes can be customized, which brings me to this: I'm also confused about selling custom fixies. It seems antithetical to the whole ethos of most fixie riders who want an original bike and are willing and knowledgeable to get specific parts and trick them out. Ah, well. Good luck nonetheless.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Again, the retail price differences are irrelevant. Your costs & pricing should be based on OEM or at least wholesale. Otherwise you are ripping off anyone ignorant enough to buy your "logic". I don't care if an Aitken saddle retails for $25 more than a Swobo saddle (dubious claim). I _know_ how much that saddle whoesales for so your argument doesn't cut much ice.



zacker said:


> *The retail cost of our bicycle is comparable to the cost of other stock bikes - ours cost more but so do the components, not to mention the added time and costs required for us to customize these bikes, hand build the wheels, and build them to-order.


Your prices are not comparable -- they are 50% greater! Scratching the Zoom label off a stem does not make it worth more, no matter how much time you waste "customizing" it.



zacker said:


> ** There are a lot of people out there that would rather buy a new bicycle than build it from used components. Most bicycle owners don't have the knowledge or desire to be their own bike mechanics.


From what you've posted, it sounds like youre are mainly talking about _yourselves_. FGG is full of _thousands_ of people expounding the satisfaction and edification of building up one's own bike. They are making something that is worth more (to them) than the sum of its parts. You are simply _charging_ more than the sum of its parts. Did you any of those riders in Dolores park who inspired this enterprise if they would have rather bought their bike complete from some guy with a trunk full of timber and a dream?



zacker said:


> If the company fails you may have a point. So far it looks like you're wrong.


What have you sold so far?


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

like Pablo said, there isn't very much to differentiate you from the other firms in the market, it looks like your market is the hipster/can't build their own bike crowd, which I should think is very small, particularly the latter. I don't know how it is in S.F but it doesn't look like hipsters around here are made of dough, especially the money you're asking. Hopefully you know better. I always thought fixed riders took pride in tooling their own bikes together, and making them look as weird and ghetto as possible. It seems more like you're catering to IKEA types more than anything. but the other guys are right you will need to be a little more competitive with parts and pricing if you're to do well, and or even add to your variety of paint or even allow custom paint jobs. your positive communication skills and customer service are a credit to your company though, keep it up. Goodluck


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Again, the retail price differences are irrelevant. Your costs & pricing should be based on OEM or at least wholesale. Otherwise you are ripping off anyone ignorant enough to buy your "logic". I don't care if an Aitken saddle retails for $25 more than a Swobo saddle (dubious claim). I _know_ how much that saddle whoesales for so your argument doesn't cut much ice.
> 
> Your prices are not comparable -- they are 50% greater! Scratching the Zoom label off a stem does not make it worth more, no matter how much time you waste "customizing" it.


What do you mean the retail prices are irrelevant? .... That's the most relevant price to the customer who will be making the value judgment about how much a bike is worth. 

Yes, bike manufacturers and stores get wholesale cost that are dramatically less than retal -- re my response to SSSalvage, I don't think you understand how this industry works.



> From what you've posted, it sounds like youre are mainly talking about _yourselves_. FGG is full of _thousands_ of people expounding the satisfaction and edification of building up one's own bike. They are making something that is worth more (to them) than the sum of its parts. You are simply _charging_ more than the sum of its parts. Did you any of those riders in Dolores park who inspired this enterprise if they would have rather bought their bike complete from some guy with a trunk full of timber and a dream?
> 
> What have you sold so far?


FGG and members of this forum are not our target market. We've sold out our first run of 5 in Oct. The next test will be our run of 15 bikes in December.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

Pablo + OneGear: You're right in that the market doesn't currently exist. But we're betting that we can help start one.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

OneGear said:


> like Pablo said, there isn't very much to differentiate you from the other firms in the market, it looks like your market is the hipster/can't build their own bike crowd, which I should think is very small, particularly the latter. I don't know how it is in S.F but it doesn't look like hipsters around here are made of dough, especially the money you're asking. Hopefully you know better. I always thought fixed riders took pride in tooling their own bikes together, and making them look as weird and ghetto as possible. It seems more like you're catering to IKEA types more than anything. but the other guys are right you will need to be a little more competitive with parts and pricing if you're to do well, and or even add to your variety of paint or even allow custom paint jobs. your positive communication skills and customer service are a credit to your company though, keep it up. Goodluck


Agree 100% with this. In Seattle the hipsters who can't build their own find other hipster with modest wrenching skills to build their bikes for them. I think most people are gonna figure out this is just a rebadged IRO.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

zacker said:


> FGG and members of this forum are not our target market. We've sold out our first run of 5 in Oct. The next test will be our run of 15 bikes in December.


That's the most important point, really. I think you'll do well, at least for as long as the fad lasts. there's enough people that want fixies as fashion accessories as opposed to utilitarian or performance machines to keep you in business. for now. you couldn't compete with surly or soma mail order but you're not really trying to if your just rebadging and repainting IRO's. totally not for me, but theres a market.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

zacker said:


> What do you mean the retail prices are irrelevant? .... That's the most relevant price to the customer who will be making the value judgment about how much a bike is worth.


They should be irrelevant to _your_ pricing. Legitimate bicycle manufacturers do not set their pricing by tallying up the cost of paying retail for each individual part!



zacker said:


> Yes, bike manufacturers and stores get wholesale cost that are dramatically less than retal -- re my response to SSSalvage, I don't think you understand how this industry works.


Lets rewind. . .


zacker said:


> I have very little business or credentials in posting on this forum or any other bike forum for that matter. I've never assembled a bike. I've never raced a bike. And despite the fact I've been very involved in starting a bicycle company I doubt I will ever know as much about bikes and the bicycle industry as most of you on this forum.... at least not for a very long time.


QED


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> They should be irrelevant to _your_ pricing. Legitimate bicycle manufacturers do not set their pricing by tallying up the cost of paying retail for each individual part!


I think it's legitimate for bicycle manufacturers to set the price of bicycles based on the retail price of other bikes in the market place, the comparative quality of components, as well as the level of customer service provided. Add it up and our bikes are priced fairly.



PeanutButterBreath said:


> I have very little business or credentials in posting on this forum or any other bike forum for that matter. I've never assembled a bike. I've never raced a bike. And despite the fact I've been very involved in starting a bicycle company I doubt I will ever know as much about bikes and the bicycle industry as *most* of you on this forum.... at least not for a very long time.


Keyword: *"most"*

I'm kinda done arguing these points PB. Let's agree to disagree. Best of luck in your endeavors.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

blackhat said:


> That's the most important point, really. I think you'll do well, at least for as long as the fad lasts. there's enough people that want fixies as fashion accessories as opposed to utilitarian or performance machines to keep you in business. for now. you couldn't compete with surly or soma mail order but you're not really trying to if your just rebadging and repainting IRO's. totally not for me, but theres a market.


Yep. But if you're just interested in selling crap to people who don't really need it, won't really use it, who mostly just want to be part of some stupid fad, why not pick something other than bikes? Also, I'm predicting that cheap 80s mountain bikes are gonna be the next big thing.


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## wchane (Aug 8, 2006)

wow. definitely a no go. poserbike to the masses, and a business owner who does not adjust to critique well. great. 

i'd rather buy a pake, soma, or surly.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

In the end, I don't think I could muster much sympathy for the type of person who would pay what you are asking for what you are selling so what-the-hey -- good luck to you.

If it doesn't work out, maybe you can get Christina to bankroll a Chipotle franchise on Valencia.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> If it doesn't work out, maybe you can get Christina to bankroll a Chipotle franchise on Valencia.


lols -- nice one pb


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Henry Chinaski said:


> But if you're just interested in selling crap to people who don't really need it, won't really use it, who mostly just want to be part of some stupid fad, why not pick something other than bikes?


he's in SF, pretty much ground zero for the irrational exuberance of the FG market. Zo bags being the ultimate example.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

blackhat said:


> he's in SF, pretty much ground zero for the irrational exuberance of the FG market. Zo bags being the ultimate example.


Is Zo actually selling any bags these days? If I remember right Zo was started by the son of the guy who used to own Velo City (which I think closed in the late 90s). I lived in SF for most of the 90s and worked at half the bike shops in the city. I remember the Zo guy wouldn't sell his stuff to shops if he didn't think they were cool enough for him, and so as a result he wasn't selling many bags (most of the shops I worked at sold Timbuk2). And his dad used to make all the girls who walked into Velo City cry.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Is Zo actually selling any bags these days? If I remember right Zo was started by the son of the guy who used to own Velo City (which I think closed in the late 90s). I lived in SF for most of the 90s and worked at half the bike shops in the city. I remember the Zo guy wouldn't sell his stuff to shops if he didn't think they were cool enough for him, and so as a result he wasn't selling many bags (most of the shops I worked at sold Timbuk2). And his dad used to make all the girls who walked into Velo City cry.


that was Zo's appeal, as I understand it. he didn't sell his bags, you bought them from him if he deemed you worthy. not kidding. I had one I bought on CL for $40 before they blew up-it was so-so, a good bag but just that. certainly well made. he's moved onto ebay and appears to be less discriminating in who he'll sell to. http://myworld.ebay.com/kaiben_v/


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

I've got a few ?'s. 

Can you describe the custom powder options a little better? Is it a one color frame & fork powder job in a selection of colors? How many colors? Can you get metallic or pearl or maybe some flames or panels, etc.? 

I see that you can customize your own decals. Is there a stock set to choose from for those of use who are maybe not so handy with design? How many designs and colors? 

Who builds the wheels? Is it in house, outsourced or machine built? What are the hub options, fixed only, fixed/fixed, fixed/free? What is the spacing? Are there color options for the rims? Are there different drillings available?

You definetly need to add a bullhorn option. You also need to add a bar tape option as opposed to grips. 

I'd offer a selection of saddles too. I've never heard of that saddle.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

zacker said:


> Pablo + OneGear: You're right in that the market doesn't currently exist. But we're betting that we can help start one.


I'll take that bet.

We will go straight up for a $1000. If in 2 years you are producing 500 units a year wiht the same, name, pricing, etc. than you win.

If not I win.

I'll even let you pay by sending me one of your left overs!


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Lifelover said:


> I'll even let you pay by sending me one of your left overs!


Ask for two or its a sucker deal for you.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

Lifelover: How about 1 bike for 250 orders in 08.

I win you buy a bike, you win I give you one of our leftovers.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

innergel said:


> I've got a few ?'s.


Sure!



innergel said:


> Can you describe the custom powder options a little better? Is it a one color frame & fork powder job in a selection of colors? How many colors? Can you get metallic or pearl or maybe some flames or panels, etc.?


We can do the set colors on the order form for the standard rate -- we have a ton of other options but they will cost more ($20 - $100 depending on how crazy). Metallics and pearls are an option, we can't do flame patterns in paint (yet) but we can figure out how to do them w/ vinyl.

What are you thinking?



innergel said:


> I see that you can customize your own decals. Is there a stock set to choose from for those of use who are maybe not so handy with design? How many designs and colors?


Artists will be designing 5+ sets of decals that you can choose from. We will also be sending blank sheets of vinyl so you can design and cut your own.



innergel said:


> Who builds the wheels? Is it in house, outsourced or machine built?


We are hand building the wheels.



> What are the hub options, fixed only, fixed/fixed, fixed/free? What is the spacing? Are there color options for the rims? Are there different drillings available?


The hubs are flip flop 120mm. For now we can only offer 32 count drillings, but we can look into this for you -- what do you want?



> You definetly need to add a bullhorn option. You also need to add a bar tape option as opposed to grips.


Yes. We will be offering drops or bullhorns w/ grip tape as opposed to risers with grips.



> I'd offer a selection of saddles too. I've never heard of that saddle.


We are looking into other saddle options. What are you looking for?


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

how experienced are your powdercoaters (with coating bikes) and your wheelbuilders and bike builders?


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

FatTireFred said:


> how experienced are your powdercoaters (with coating bikes) and your wheelbuilders and bike builders?


Our wheel builder right now is John -- he has 6 year professional experience as a bike mechanic and 3 years helping run a bike shop. Our powder coater is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) powder coat operations in the Bay Area. They have 5+ FT employees and from what i can tell do 25+ bikes a week.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

zacker said:


> Lifelover: How about 1 bike for 250 orders in 08.


Only 250 bikes and you're planning to make how much money per bike? You got two people in the company and rent to pay in SF? You guys got a trust fund?


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Only 250 bikes and you're planning to make how much money per bike? You got two people in the company and rent to pay in SF? You guys got a trust fund?


Only one FTE (John) -- I'm an investor and an active partner (I'm a founder/partner at a tech company which is my full time job). 250 bikes a year would be break even for us. And no, we don't have a trust fund, it's entirely self funded.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

zacker said:


> Only one FTE (John) -- I'm an investor and an active partner (I'm a founder/partner at a tech company which is my full time job). 250 bikes a year would be break even for us.


Have you factored in the liability insurance? When someone's kid moves to SF after college and gets run over by the J Church mom's gonna come after you guys...


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

yes... we have factored in liability insurance.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

zacker said:


> yes... we have factored in liability insurance.


Cool. Well, good luck with it. If you're just going for break even, I think it would be more interesting to put your energies into something like Pedal Revoltion.

http://www.pedalrevolution.com/


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks.

Pedal Rev is 4 blocks from my house -- it's a great operation. We're trying something pretty different from what they've got going though.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

zacker said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Pedal Rev is 4 blocks from my house -- it's a great operation. We're trying something pretty different from what they've got going though.


Yeah, cool outfit. I hired a few kids from them and used to give them a bunch of spare parts.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

zacker said:


> Agreed that there isn't really an existing niche for store-bought fixies -- most of the fixed gear riders currently build their own. We're hoping to help change that. In the end we hope this translates to more people who love their bikes and love bicycling even if they _"don't know the difference between their seat-tube from a hole in the ground"_


I think these guys were on that train about 2 - 3 years ago.
http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=255&products_id=1576

Store bought, store customized, delivered to your door ready to ride .... and its a Waterford to boot!


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

zacker said:


> Sure!
> 
> We can do the set colors on the order form for the standard rate -- we have a ton of other options but they will cost more ($20 - $100 depending on how crazy). Metallics and pearls are an option, we can't do flame patterns in paint (yet) but we can figure out how to do them w/ vinyl.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the responses Zack. I appreciate the quick turnaround. I'm not particularly interested in this specific bike for myself. I'm proficient at building my own. But I am interested in the business model and your approach. 

What I am trying to do is figure out how your bike is differentiated from say an IRO frame from Nomco (http://stores.ebay.com/The-Neil-O-Murphy-Bicycle-Company)? Aside from the fact that they sell frame/fork and parts. And the assembly is left to the buyer. I mean you can get an IRO at a lot of places.

IMO, it looks like you are selling two things here:
1. The ability to "customize" the aesthetics of the bike to some extent.
2. The fact that it's preassembled. 

While the aesthetics are interesting, I think you need more options. Hence the ?'s about color choices and special paint options, etc. If I were you, I'd really work hard on expanding the options in this area. The reality of the situation is that you can buy the same frame at a lot of places and have it powdercoated a single color for $100 extra if you didn't like the stock color. If you could offer the frame with more color/paint/powder options at the same price, you'd have a strong differentiator to buy from you instead of someone else. Get some really good painters/powder guys on retainer and let them go to town with the designs. Let your customers work directly with them. THEN you'd really have a custom bike. 

In the motorcycle world, American Ironhorse does this. You get to choose from a few basic designs on the tank and fenders, etc, but you can basically trick out the paint with a large number of options for no upgrade in price. 

All the parts ?'s were there because I think you will need a wider parts selection. The reality in the bike world is that people will usually swap out the saddle and bars almost immediately. If you had the options up front, once again included in the base price, it would be more appealing. 

There is nothing wrong with a preassembled bike. Many people would prefer that option. I think the fixed gear crowd is a little more hands on as far as maintenance goes, but maybe not. I'd work hard on upgrading the parts spec. 

I'm not bagging on you or your company here. Just offering some constructive criticism. I'm all for getting more people on bikes however we can.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

zacker said:


> Lifelover: How about 1 bike for 250 orders in 08.
> 
> I win you buy a bike, you win I give you one of our leftovers.


I certainly like you stakes allot more than mine but I would want you order numbers to have to meet a figure that means you company is doing better than breaking even.

Good luck with it.

If it works out keep posting here. As you can see most are very skeptical of investing in the "bike industry".

It would be nice to follow a successful story.

If you guys are around in a couple of years I will give it serious consideration.


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

fiddlr40 said:


> The world willl be a better place when more small shop bike builder/sellers can survive, kinda like the micro-brewery business of 20 years ago.
> .


While I agree that more bikes = a better world, the microbrewery analogy isn't right.

This is more like someone buying a keg of Sierra Nevada, putting it in his own botttles with a different label on it, and selling it for more.

It's bandwagon-jumping in its purest form. Mission is essentially exploiting the fixie trend and preying on the ignorance of bike-illiterate hipsters by selling them something they could get far cheaper under the guise of a "custom frame," when all they're really doing is repainting IROs and marking up the price. 

It's shrewd, not especially clever, and will probably be a huge hit. But it sure leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


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## lml1x (Jan 2, 2003)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Is Zo actually selling any bags these days? If I remember right Zo was started by the son of the guy who used to own Velo City (which I think closed in the late 90s). I lived in SF for most of the 90s and worked at half the bike shops in the city. I remember the Zo guy wouldn't sell his stuff to shops if he didn't think they were cool enough for him, and so as a result he wasn't selling many bags (most of the shops I worked at sold Timbuk2). And his dad used to make all the girls who walked into Velo City cry.


Is that right? I dropped by the shop a few times to poke around. One of the guys was explaining to me the concept of inherent energy in a frame which he demonstrated by sitting on a bike, making one pedal revolution and then seeing how far the bike would go. A nice enough fella in a hippie sort of way.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

innergel said:


> What I am trying to do is figure out how your bike is differentiated from say an IRO frame from Nomco (http://stores.ebay.com/The-Neil-O-Murphy-Bicycle-Company)? Aside from the fact that they sell frame/fork and parts. And the assembly is left to the buyer. I mean you can get an IRO at a lot of places.
> 
> IMO, it looks like you are selling two things here:
> 1. The ability to "customize" the aesthetics of the bike to some extent.
> 2. The fact that it's preassembled.


Good question. I think you've got it. The fact that we sell a complete assembled bicycle that a customer can ride home on and the fact that they have a lot of control over how it looks are our biggest selling points over IRO retailers. If you can do the work of a bike mechanic this probably doesn't mean as much to you as someone who can't or doesn't want to. But for majority of people that buy and ride bikes aren't their own mechanics, which means they are going to purchase their bike in a store, and IMO currently almost nobody is selling any interesting affordable fixed gear bikes in stores.



innergel said:


> While the aesthetics are interesting, I think you need more options. Hence the ?'s about color choices and special paint options, etc. If I were you, I'd really work hard on expanding the options in this area. The reality of the situation is that you can buy the same frame at a lot of places and have it powdercoated a single color for $100 extra if you didn't like the stock color. If you could offer the frame with more color/paint/powder options at the same price, you'd have a strong differentiator to buy from you instead of someone else. Get some really good painters/powder guys on retainer and let them go to town with the designs. Let your customers work directly with them. THEN you'd really have a custom bike.
> 
> In the motorcycle world, American Ironhorse does this. You get to choose from a few basic designs on the tank and fenders, etc, but you can basically trick out the paint with a large number of options for no upgrade in price.


Yes. Very good idea. The plan actually is to build a referral network of artists that specialize in working on bicycles. So if people want customization beyond color choice and decals we can bring in an artist to work with them. This probably won't be something we offer until Q1 08. 



innergel said:


> All the parts ?'s were there because I think you will need a wider parts selection. The reality in the bike world is that people will usually swap out the saddle and bars almost immediately. If you had the options up front, once again included in the base price, it would be more appealing.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a preassembled bike. Many people would prefer that option. I think the fixed gear crowd is a little more hands on as far as maintenance goes, but maybe not. I'd work hard on upgrading the parts spec.


Yes, you're right. We are working on providing a much larger choice in components. It's likely we will let people upgrade their seat, cranks, etc some time in the next six months.



innergel said:


> I'm not bagging on you or your company here. Just offering some constructive criticism. I'm all for getting more people on bikes however we can.


Thank you.


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

wchane said:


> poserbike to the masses, and a business owner who does not adjust to critique well. great.


Couldn't have said it better. I was even deemed worthy of a PM in which I was called "dumb." 

Considering that the comments below are the way Zacker introduced his company to the general fixie public, I'd advise any prospective buyers to avoid them. 

_"we don't consider you...our customers."

"people in your situation probably won't buy our bicycle, and that's just fine with us."

"chances are I will never meet you and I'm sure that's just fine with the both of us."
_


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

BianchiJoe said:


> I was even deemed worthy of a PM in which I was called "dumb."



wow... just wow


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Overly abundant exuberance is forgivable. Overly abundant cynicism is not. They must have a pretty low opinion of the fixed gear community in SF to not only perpetrate this sucker appeal to vanity, but to tip their hand on a public forum. And then they blast skeptics for being too knowledable about bikes to understand their intended customer.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Overly abundant exuberance is forgivable.  Overly abundant cynicism is not. They must have a pretty low opinion of the fixed gear community in SF to not only perpetrate this sucker appeal to vanity, but to tip their hand on a public forum. And then they blast skeptics for being too knowledable about bikes to understand their intended customer.



what's a fixed gear community. is it like a gated subdivision for non freewheeling rapscallions? 
think of this bike as the 2 wheeled equivalent of an ipod nano and maybe you won't be so vexed by it. lots of pretty colors to choose from, better than adequate functionality and somewhat overpriced. there's a market for it, it's just not a bike nerd's bike. at least not in it's present form.
edited to add that before we get too carried away making fun of color only customization, anyone who was in any way involved in the 90's mtb scene should stfu. there weren't a ton of practical or performance reasons to be swapping out every bolt for annodized green ringle bits then, not much difference here.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Okay then, "cycling community".

I don't have a problem with color-centric customization, btw. But a) its been done to death and b) a $600 bike + Deep Vs != a $950 bike.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

I wonder why you guys are all over this company?
Sure they are getting on a fad but who hasn't? 
How many of us were using the internet prior to 1995? Guess we jumped on that fad.
You are probably using a computer running a Mac or Microsoft OS. Both those companys have a history of buying up other products and relabelling. Guess your cars have airbags and abs as well. Bandwagon riders? No you are just following fashions. Bet most users on this forum have jumped on the singlespeed thing within the last 10 years. If this company has found a niche that works then good luck to them. More cyclists riding has got to be a good thing unless your a bike snob. 
One question though, if we aren't the target market why the heck post here in the first place? Could have saved Zacky a lot of grief.
As to breaking even in the first year, most start ups would take that. Good luck.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

SSSasky said:


> .


that head tube is fugly as all get up. are the rivets an option or are they put in all of their bikes?


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

You are comparing an IRO with color matched Deep Vs to the internet, MacOS, Windows, airbags & ABS?  I don't see what you are getting at. But I don't consider any of those fashions either.

Is there really a significant number of people out there who are waiting for a company like this to come along before they become cyclists? Doubt it.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> You are comparing an IRO with color matched Deep Vs to the internet, MacOS, Windows, airbags & ABS?  I don't see what you are getting at. But I don't consider any of those fashions either.


what he said. the 'net, mac OS, windows, antilock brakes and airbags were all new developments, most of them revolutionary. there's nothing new or at all revolutionary about taking a low end frame, respraying it and bolting low end parts on it. and there's nothing wrong with that headtube, though there is something horribly wrong with people who use the word "fugly"... something has to hold the badge on, would you prefer glue?


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

kiwisimon said:


> I wonder why you guys are all over this company?
> Sure they are getting on a fad but who hasn't?


The issue isn't whether they're jumping on a trend, it's that they're pretending to be "designing" and "building" bikes when in reality they're painting IROs, assembling parts on them, then marking up the price, in a blatant effort to hoodwink the unknowing hipster into paying more than he needs to for a fixie. 

An IRO Angus complete goes for $629.00. Mission powdercoats the same frame, puts deep Vs on it and charges _$950 !!_ 

If having "no visible branding" and a pair of $50 rims is worth $325, this is your bike.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

BianchiJoe said:


> An IRO Angus complete goes for $629.00. Mission powdercoats the same frame, puts deep Vs on it and charges _$950 !!_
> 
> If having "no visible branding" and a pair of $50 rims is worth $325, this is your bike.


http://www.irofixedgear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1

Base Price: $629.00

Add on upgrades!
Front Brake - from $50
Deluxe Wheelset - from $160
Custom Color Powder Coat - $150

Total: $989


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Just get me a decent frameset and I'll build my own!


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

roadfix said:


> Just get me a decent frameset and I'll build my own!



but remember, you or anyone who hand assembles bikes are not their customers... people in your situation probably won't buy their bicycle, and that's just fine with them. but I guess they forgot that noobs sometimes seek out more experienced riders for advice... so after all this, will anyone here recommend them???


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## anthony.delorenzo (May 8, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Again, the retail price differences are irrelevant. Your costs & pricing should be based on OEM or at least wholesale. Otherwise you are ripping off anyone ignorant enough to buy your "logic".


I think what isn't well understood in this thread is that the cost of the bicycle is completely irrelevant. This is a market-driven economy where the price is set by what people (the market) are willing to pay, not by what the product costs. If that bike sells well enough at $950 to make the business profitable, it doesn't matter a hill of beans if it cost $100 or $900 to make it.

If the consumer is happy to pay $950 for the bike, then they feel the price is fair. If they don't, then obviously the product isn't appealing to the market at that price and you either change the product or change the price. Either way, nobody is getting "ripped off" in that transaction. 

Regards, 
Anthony


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## anthony.delorenzo (May 8, 2007)

BianchiJoe said:


> It's bandwagon-jumping in its purest form. Mission is essentially exploiting the fixie trend and preying on the ignorance of bike-illiterate hipsters by selling them something they could get far cheaper under the guise of a "custom frame," when all they're really doing is repainting IROs and marking up the price.


Cripes, this thread is making me see red today. Get a grip everybody, this is a BUSINESS not some kind of social development program. 

You call it "jumping on a trend" whereas anyone with any business sense would call it "responding to market demand." If the bikes have no value to the market, people won't pay the price asked. If they do, they will. Nothing else matters sh*t.


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

zacker said:


> http://www.irofixedgear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1
> 
> Base Price: $629.00
> 
> ...


Yep, if I wanted to pay $160 for Deep-Vs, twice the going rate for powdercoating a frame and $50 for an invisible brake like the one on your website bike, that would be one hell of a bargain.  

Oh, and I got the IRO price wrong -- it's really $579, not $629. My bad.

http://www.irofixedgear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=7


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

If the deterimination of worth is rooted in ignorance, than someone _may be_ getting ripped off. If I sell you a hunk of lead spray-painted gold and you believe that it is real gold, you are an idiot but I am still ripping you off. Believing you have real gold does not make it worth its weight in gold.

Personally, I think that anyone who shells out $950 for this bike would only do so under the impression that they are getting more than what this company is selling. If it motivates them to learn more about cycling, one of the first lessons they will learn is that they paid more for their bike than the sum of its parts (and that people are staring at them for all the wrong reasons).

Aesthetically (and isn't that what these guys are all about?), a person could achieve the same effect for a fraction of the cost by buying a Deep V wheelset and powdercoating any old frame to match. Granted, they might not have a bunch of high-falutin' _alloy_ parts hanging off it, but we _are_ talking about people who don't know jack about bikes so what do they care?


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

PBB, 

I have read all your post, and agree with every word of them. Yet, I get to the end of the post, and I have a bad taste in my mouth for clowning on a guy trying to start up a bike buisness. As anthony.delorenzo pointed out, this is a business and just because he is selling bikes does not mean he needs to give the customers a great deal. 

I understand your point, and some guy (unrelated to the company) *did* ask for opinions. The owner just came on to defend his new start up.

I would like to ask you: when was the last time that you walked into a small boutique in a huge metropolitan area and got a great deal? Never. No big deal...just go shop on e-bay or the RBR classifieds and keep your neck out of the boutiques.


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

Kestreljr said:


> just go shop on e-bay or the RBR classifieds and keep your neck out of the boutiques.


If a Taiwanese IRO with a white powdercoat is now considered "boutique," one of us is very confused.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

True, true. But the larger point, and what *anthony.delorenzo* left out, is that _this forum is part of the market_. *zackster* may not want to hear the immediate and overwhelming skepticism, he may not like people poking holes in his business model or his price structure, but he ignores this feedback at his own peril.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

PB: what would you consider a fair price for the Mission Bicycle?


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

BianchiJoe said:


> If a Taiwanese IRO with a white powdercoat is now considered "boutique," one of us is very confused.


I would agree, but I live in Georgetown with a bunch of boutiques that include polo and a store that sells levis jeans. They sell the same polo shirts at TJ max for $19.99 that they sell in georgetown for $69. The levi's orginal 501's go for $75 in G-Town. They sell the exact same pair at JC Penny's for $46. 

I am not saying these are good deals, but somebody keeps these places in business.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

zacker said:


> PB: what would you consider a fair price for the Mission Bicycle?


I think the Mission Bicycle is ill-concieved. None of your "upgrades" over the $600 IROs or Swobos are particular stand-outs, save the Deep Vs which make a statement but are not a premium product. A Deep V/Forumla wheelset is not a premium wheelset by any means. Presumably these companies are doing more than breaking even on their bikes, so if you are merely breaking even selling the same bike + upgrades priced at full retail, something is amiss.

If you think your niche is people who want a cool looking bike, but are not bike geeks, then focus your business on that. Forget the component options and upgrades, they are wasted on your target audience and will prevent you from realizing your already limited economies of scale. Offer a basic build kit that includes Deep Vs but goes no-frills on absolutely everything else. My employer has custom saddles made by Velo -- maybe look into that. Design the kit so that it can be priced to reflect the value that _your customer_ will recognize over a basic IRO. i.e. an IRO + 2 Deep V rims and maybe a saddle. If you source your parts right, you should be able to move plenty of solid, eye catching bikes at a price that is competitive with what is already on the market.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

PB: what about the custom powder coat? If we just sold Deep Vs + the powder coat at the market rates (what IRO and other retailers sell them for) we're at ~$850: $600 stock + $150 for the powdercoat + $100 for the hand built Deep V wheel-set. 

Would you consider that a good value?


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

blackhat said:


> here is something horribly wrong with people who use the word "fugly"... there's nothing wrong with that headtube, though there is something horribly wrong with people who use the word "fugly"... something has to hold the badge on, would you prefer glue?


yep, the rivets stick out like dogs bollocks. 
heres something really fugly.http://www.fugly.com/pictures/15635/lego_penguins.html


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

zacker said:


> PB: what about the custom powder coat? If we just sold Deep Vs + the powder coat at the market rates (what IRO and other retailers sell them for) we're at ~$850: $550 stock + $150 for the powdercoat + $150 for the hand built Deep V wheel-set.
> 
> Would you consider that a good value?


You are adding the cost of the Deep V wheelset to their complete bike price. However, you are actually _substituting_ the wheels. IRO retails wheels for $200, presumably they pay $150 max for them. You should be charging much less than $150 for substituting the Deep V wheelset -- $50 max.

That makes it $550 stock + $150 for PC + $50 for the wheel upgrade: $750.

If you can get the price down to $750, I think it would be a no-brainer for anyone in The City interested in an IRO or similar to give you guys a call first. Solid bike, looks nicer than competitors, no shipping, fully assembled, local support.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

PB: It's a good idea. We have been putting thought into what a scaled down less pricey version of the MB would be that we would try to get local retailers to carry. What you laid out is actually pretty close to what we are thinking.


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## bluemarinoni (Mar 15, 2007)

Wow. Got tired of reading this thread about 1/3 of the way through. 

Don't know if Mission will make it- maybe, maybe not, doubt their profit margin will be anywhere near acceptable, whether their bikes are overpriced or not. I think you could probably slide that price up or down as much as you wanted/could and it wouldn't change much. Might sell more but at less profit...

Perhaps if they took some suggestions, pushed even more toward the boutique end... eh. Higher skill and better execution (oh wait- that costs more! whoops.)

Just goes to show you, doing business in the US is a fools propostion. We are all well practiced consumers, bargaining our way out of our own economic power.

Prediction: 15years. For business in the US to remain able, a majority of jobs- even service industry jobs- will become contract based. A majority of companies will not have their own employees, and will rather purchase per job via headhunters/agents, or independent workers. Agencies offering benifits (unions) will be outsold because their prices will be higher than a large number of independent headhunters in the market.

Why? Because we're all cheap f-ers.

The only people to do well will be large business owners, and upper-echelon information handlers.

All health insurance gone. Retirement funds totally up to the individual. Only for those who can purchase individually. Fallout? Critical economic failure in sixty years.

Just a thought.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

By local retailers, are you talking LBSs or non-bike boutiques catering to the same audience?


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

Talking about LBS -- Places like Pedal Rev in SF.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Seems like if you play your cards right you will have more orders than you can handle with only one FTE. But it never hurts to have options.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

kiwisimon said:


> yep, the rivets stick out like dogs bollocks.


you're entitled to your opinion but you could say the same thing about lugs on a sachs frame-that they stick out- but that doesn't make them ugly. <a href="https://www.headbadges.com/">custom</a> headbadges are attached with either screws like that or tape. If Im shelling out $55+ for a headbadge, Ill take screws.

<img src="https://www.headbadges.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/monolith.jpg.w300h400.jpg">


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## asterisk (Oct 21, 2003)

Interesting idea but I think it needs some further development. I'll save echoing what others have said as far as what's currently offered but maybe you can expand on the idea of marketing to non-bike geeks.

If someone doesn't have the skills to put an "urban fixed gear" bike together they probably won't be too well versed in things like repair or maintenance so perhaps offer a warranty or included service plan for anything that may go wrong or offer one-on-one lessons in tire changing or something. 

I think Montano Velo in Oakland already sells custom-ish repainted IROs so you might have to look for other avenues for bringing people in.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bsnyc <a href="http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2007/11/bsnyc-interview-mission-bicycles.html">speaks</a>!


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## bluemarinoni (Mar 15, 2007)

Course, I'm thinking about it again, and though I'm not their intended audience, I put together my steel merckx fixie for just a hairs breath over 1000, and that included nitto bars/stem, (good) suzue hubs, and yes (sorry folks) Deep V's

Course again, I'm resourceful and didn't buy everything new.


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## bluemarinoni (Mar 15, 2007)

Are non-bike-geeks going to get it? How cool is UNBRANDED to people who aren't part of the culture, and can't recognize it by sight at 100yrds?

Status sells, we all know that, we're (bike snobs) heavy hitters in those markets. We'll pay the extra bucks for the Deda when last year's Ritchey would do just as well.

Will a less than knowledgeable, status driven customer bite an un-branded no-status no-where'd ya get that i'm so jealous bike,-- Especially when the status surrounding these bikes has more to do with the home-grown, street-beat, use it like you want to, master of my own destiny style than the fact that it's a fixie?


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

blackhat said:


> bsnyc <a href="http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2007/11/bsnyc-interview-mission-bicycles.html">speaks</a>!


A lot less biting wit than usual.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Pablo said:


> A lot less biting wit than usual.


oh but the comments are biting


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## knucklesandwich (Feb 23, 2007)

If you know this forum is not the target market, I don't see why you got on here and started posting/defending your company. Maybe you should take your feedback-gathering to the Dwell or Wallpaper message boards...


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

FatTireFred said:


> oh but the comments are biting


Yeah, but this thread tired me out on this brand. Bleh.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Pablo said:


> Yeah, but this thread tired me out on this brand. Bleh.



oh wow, Delancy = Maxway Y6R03... or so it would appear








https://www.maxway.com.tw/cgi-bin/productfn/pdt_detail_lst.pl?ProdID=98


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## Buck Satan (Nov 21, 2005)

Maybe I'm not getting it, but aren't there already a lot of big, reputable bike companies like Specialized, Cannondale, Giant and Bianchi already building fixed-gear/SS bikes for less money on better frames? I breezed through the specs on a Pista and fail to see how the MB is what, $400 better? And it's double-butted.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

Buck Satan, here is a retail component price breakdown between the Swobo Sanchez, Bianchi Pista, and the Mission Bicycle

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pzcuZZ6yJ8Ypr0raMAYqBFg

Bottom line:

Swobo Sanchez
Retail part value: $537 
Bike retail: $600 

Bianchi Pista
Retail part value: $565.9
Bike retail: $550

Mission Bicycle
Retail part value: $996
Bike retail: $950

All numbers behind the spreadsheet are publicly available through google searching. I encourage you to try to debunk them.


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## mraceebb (Aug 8, 2007)

Coming out of lurk mode for this.

Seems like instead of taking the low end parts usually found on stock fixed gears, MB is putting other slightly higher, but still low end parts on the bikes. I would think that if most people were going to upgrade a part from other stock fixed gears, they would upgrade to something that offers an advantage or more of a step up in quality.

IE many of your upgrade like upgrading from: 
seatpost: Generic	$7 to	27.2 Alloy micro-adjust post	$20 
seems like a waste of an increase in cost based on who your primary customers are going to be.

Your quote on 150 for stock color powder coat upgrade price also seems kind of high to me and if you are paying close to that much, you might want to investigate other powder coaters. In fact, if you don't mind me asking, how much are you going to be paying on your end per powder coat? Also, I am assuming you are ordering the iro's unpainted? so then the price you are paying should be a little cheaper somewhere I would think.

Now if you just went with the base components and dropped your all your upgrades (which really aren't substantial upgrades especially for your target audience of non bike knowledgable people) minus the colored deep vs (which your target audience does like), you would have a cheaper bottom line and a cheaper bike. I think there is definitely a market for fixed gears with a customizable color scheme, both for yuppies and hipsters in SF, but getting your price point a little closer to all the other stock fixed bikes would definitely help imho.

That's just my opinion on your business model, minus my thoughts on your business itself and the bikes you are selling and your retail pricing rationale. More bikes being sold is better then less, and more bikes being sold that are ridden actively is even better.


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## Buck Satan (Nov 21, 2005)

zacker:

What I don’t think you’re getting is that I don’t really care about retail component prices unless, as has been said, the differences are greater. I don’t see your component selections as “upgrades”, they’re still cheap parts that I wouldn’t use unless I wanted a bargain. That’s acceptable on a $550 bike, but not on a $950 bike.. The frame is what I really care about, and straight-gauge steel isn’t cutting it. I still perceive the Bianchi as a better bike, because of the manufacturer, warranty and better frame. Hell, the Trek T1 sells for $150 more than your bike and there is absolutely no comparison between the quality of that frame and yours, plus IMO the wheels are better still, and the components are at least as good. 

Then again, myself and the people here care about bikes, not fashion accessories.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

mraceebb, Buck Satan, and my old friend PB: I think I'm coming around on this. While I still do believe that our bikes components are a substantial step up in quality from other stock fixies -- and that this shows in the retail price difference for those who do research or know a lot about bike components -- this probably isn't going to cut it. 

For the most part very knowledgeable bikers aren't going to make value judgments by going through our spec and comparison shopping on components of our bike vs. other bikes. They are simply going to look at the price tag, think to themselves about what kind of bike is worth that amount of money to them, then look at our bikes spec and make a value judgment.

We have a couple things working against us:

1. If someone is not using to ascribing much value to the aesthetics of a purchased bike we're a lost cause. Yes, you're definitely paying more for aesthetics with our bike - it costs us a lot of money to get the bikes and parts powdercoated 1 by 1.

2. While our crankset / wheels / wheelset / seat / post are a cut above what comes on a stock $600 fixie, most of the components aren't easily recognizable as any better. Folks will notice the Deep V wheelset, but won't know (and then care) that the Origin8 crankset is better than the TruVatiV on the Sanchez. In this way we think we 'split the difference' 

We aren't going to do anything about #1, but we are definitely going to try to do something about #2.

Thoughts?


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

zacker said:


> Folks will notice the Deep V wheelset, but won't know (and then care) that the Origin8 crankset is better than the TruVatiV on the Sanchez. In this way we think we 'split the difference'


Mission is selling a paint job and a pair of deep Vs. Period.

You're trying to justify the bloated $950 price tag by substituting parts that are only marginally better than what your competitors spec.

If the target-market aesthetes don't care about frame material, they certainly won't quibble over a seatpost. Spec the cheap stuff and drop the price.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Buck Satan said:


> The frame is what I really care about, and straight-gauge steel isn’t cutting it.


does a bike that's designed to be ridden to the coffee shop really need a butted front triangle and if so, why?


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

BIanchiJoe, PB: If we dropped everything to generic the retail component cost would be $830. I don't think we would be able to stay alive with the margin we'd get if we sold them for $750, and considering how Bianchi's + Sanchez's are priced we would be really undershooting things.

Would $800 be fair in your view?


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## JohnnyTooBad (Apr 5, 2004)

Zacker,

I think you're starting to get the drift. You need to consider your market. They are not bike snobs. They want a good looking bike as a fashion statement. So put cheap parts on it. Except for the aero wheelset, they can't tell the difference between a Thompson seatpost and a cheap POS. Same goes for every other part on the bike. They aren't going to put power to the pedals that will stress a crankset, either. Take a look at Speedgoat.com. Basically, you spec and build your own bike. Almost everything that comes out of there is a one-off custom build. You could offer something similar, where you have some options for upgrades, and build it to the customer's spec, but keep it in the fairly low-end to keep it cheap. You might also be able to have a selection of bikes built up on various color frames, ready to go, so that people don't have to wait for it to get painted. They can just say, "OOohhh, I like the purrty bike, I'll take that one". I also agree you shouldn't be paying $150/bike for the powder coating. If you are giving someone enough business and will guarantee that you'll send them all your frames (assuming the turnaround time and quality contol is met), they should be doing them for a lot cheaper (under $100, easy). I could go to any good quality PC place and have a single frame done for $150.


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## RoyIII (Feb 24, 2007)

I had my old steel Derby cycles columbus thron frame powdercoated and it cost me $175. I think what Mission is doing is good. Just slow trail SWOBO and they'll be all right.


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

blackhat said:


> does a bike that's designed to be ridden to the coffee shop really need a butted front triangle and if so, why?


It doesn't. But for $950 one would certainly expect it. 

I understand that the $275 SE Draft (made of hi-ten steel) is flying out of stores.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

RoyIII said:


> I had my old steel Derby cycles columbus thron frame powdercoated and it cost me $175. I think what Mission is doing is good. Just slow trail SWOBO and they'll be all right.



but presumably your derby was also blasted, whereas these maxways would require less prep


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

FTF -- we're a small fry, not sourced through MaxWay. We're blasting like the rest of you.


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

zacker said:


> BIanchiJoe, PB: If we dropped everything to generic the retail component cost would be $830. I don't think we would be able to stay alive with the margin we'd get if we sold them for $750, and considering how Bianchi's + Sanchez's are priced we would be really undershooting things.
> 
> Would $800 be fair in your view?


On paper, I guess. Just hope that the consumer doesn't catch wind of the rock-bottom SE Draft for $275, or that he/she values aesthetics enough to justify the $525 difference. 

Now, of course you know and I know that the SE bike is crap, but the customer you're appealing to theoretically doesn't. The paradox is, if you educate the customer on why the SE Draft is crap, he's liable to figure out that _your_ bike can be had for hundreds less. 

So I guess my objection all along is that the customer's ignorance seems to be the key to Mission's success. You're gambling on the fact that the customer doesn't know squat about bikes or that he values aesthetics to the point that he doesn't care if he pays a lot more for mediocrity. The gamble may very well pay off for you, but I'd be pretty hesitant to be an investor in this.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

BianchiJoe said:


> It doesn't. But for $950 one would certainly expect it.
> 
> I understand that the $275 SE Draft (made of hi-ten steel) is flying out of stores.


it's 4130 isn't it? thats not high-tensile steel. I don't think butting makes much difference on a bike for this purpose other than making it more marketable.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

$800 would be the cost of a similar bike, plus the full retail cost of a powder coat at $150, plus $50 for the Deep V upgrade. That seems okay. I think that you should bridge the gap between the retail cost of powder and your cost. As a bike company, the value you are adding is the money saved with economies of scale, OEM & wholesale relationships etc.

I still question the logic of paying 33% of the cost of the bike to custom powdercoat the frame, fork and rims. But if you can find a steady stream of such customers, I don't think $800 is too much to ask.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

I forgot you're getting 'em straight from IRO... so, if someone wants one that is same color it comes from IRO, are you gonna knock back the price $150? and when you become big(ger) time and can source from Maxway, will the prices drop?


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## Buck Satan (Nov 21, 2005)

blackhat said:


> does a bike that's designed to be ridden to the coffee shop really need a butted front triangle and if so, why?


 No, it wouldn't but that's the thing - I wouldn't buy one to ride the the coffee shop, I'd buy one to do winter training on. So again, I may not be the target audience. Nevertheless, a straight-gauge frame should be cheaper than a butted one. 

BTW I just priced a Bowery at my LBS for $499, I think I'll be getting one.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Buck Satan said:


> I'd buy one to do winter training on..


that's what I mainly do on my Pista. It's swell.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

FatTireFred said:


> I forgot you're getting 'em straight from IRO... so, if someone wants one that is same color it comes from IRO, are you gonna knock back the price $150? and when you become big(ger) time and can source from Maxway, will the prices drop?


If someone wants a stock frame instead of a powdercoated one we can work something out. When we get bigger, yes we will drop our price.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

one more... for local buyers, will you offer free tune-ups, per usual at most LBS?


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah -- that will be included in our official warranty plan when it is ready. Something like 6 mo free tune-ups + part replacement.


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## midlife_xs's (Jun 18, 2004)

zacker said:


> FTF -- we're a small fry, not sourced through MaxWay. We're blasting like the rest of you.


I think what the company needs is an investor to infuse liquidity so you can import/make or source locally your own frames. Apparently, putting a different collar on the same dog wont cut it unless you can price it lower, (same parts) which is highly improbable. Right now you are in the business of customizing. You get an order, ask what the customer wants and transform the bike. Low start up capital and minimal risk. 

IMO, business is like gambling, if you don't bet big you wont win big. Except lottery where your odd's of losing is also greatest.


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

blackhat said:


> it's 4130 isn't it? thats not high-tensile steel. I don't think butting makes much difference on a bike for this purpose other than making it more marketable.


a) I didn't equate 4130 with Hi-Ten. My point was that if the bike is only being used to go to the coffee shop, one _might as well _ride Hi-Ten. 

b) I already acknowledged that butting doesn't matter on a coffeeshop bike.

c) The point remains that $950 is a lot of money for a straight-guage bike. This very frame is sold by IRO as a complete bike for less than $600.


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## mraceebb (Aug 8, 2007)

zacker said:


> 2. While our crankset / wheels / wheelset / seat / post are a cut above what comes on a stock $600 fixie, most of the components aren't easily recognizable as any better. Folks will notice the Deep V wheelset, but won't know (and then care) that the Origin8 crankset is better than the TruVatiV on the Sanchez. In this way we think we 'split the difference'



I don't know if I would say your parts are a cut above. Also, you seem to be interchangeably saying for cranks sugino rd and the origin 8. Maybe I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the origin 8 is not just a relabeled sugino, it uses a different bb (118mm) weighs 100g more and as I understand it's slightly cheaper quality. Basically the difference between that and the truvativ is pretty damn minimal imo.

Instead of going with tier 1 parts you are choosing tier 2, and then labeling your bike as having "high quality parts" and justifying the high price tag. I find the "high quality parts" thing misleading and if anything would guess that it is a big part of the negative response you are getting here.

You are targeting the people who want a fashion color bike. Just put the tier 1 parts on it, drop the higher quality comments (because vs $600 complete bike competition, the frame is the same or lower quality and the parts difference is quite minimal), then drop the price. There is a market out there for trendy, fashiony color bikes.

The other thing that I think is bothering people is the slightly underhanded and non-transparent way you are running things. It took a while for it to come out that you are just blasting and repainting iros and your website says nothing about this or the actual parts breakdown. Rather then acting like you are selling something that you designed and contracted, which you seem to indicate, I think it would be better to be up front. Offer people either the normal stock iro color with the matching colored accessories or give people the option to get the bike powder coated. Calling it your own, when it's just a recolored iro is misleading, and makes the price increase seem even more suspicious. You are more of a customizable bike store, then a bike company.

Finally, your retail price upgrade cost argument just doesn't come across well. I know you are a small company (sold 5 bikes so far?) so you obviously aren't getting great wholesale prices yourself, but the whole retail price upgrade cost justification leaves a bad taste for myself and I think many others.

You are a small company and best of luck to you, just trying to explain why you seem to be getting such a negative response here and from the bikesnob interview.


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## Not Eddie Roman (Nov 5, 2007)

*Spec*

As many have said before me, you can't worry about the retail price of components when pricing a complete bike. What matters is whether the stuff WORKS. I have no idea how much the Truvativ cranks/bottom bracket on my four-year-old Pista would have retailed for. What I DO know is that they haven't come loose or had to be serviced once in all that time. Ditto the hubs (generic sealed high-flange jobs engraved with the Bianchi logo). Formula hubs may retail for more, but I sure wouldn't pay it. Why would I when the no-name stuff gets the job done? Besides, the whole POINT of buying a complete bike at retail in the first place is getting the whole for less than the sum of its parts. Right?

The way I see it, the Mission isn't set up right. Either make it a lot cheaper and skimp on everything but the paint and wheels (as others have suggested--a truly non-rider customer won't recognize or care about the difference) or make it a TRUE high-end bike (Dura-Ace cranks, Chris King headset, Thomson post, MKS pedals etc., etc.) and go all out. Paying $950 for a bike that is--at best--marginally better than a stock Pista or Fuji Track just doesn't seem like a good idea. No matter what color you paint it.


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## Not Eddie Roman (Nov 5, 2007)

Great. I totally put my response in the wrong place. Whoops.

Apologies.


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

*We're adjusting our pricing model*

PB, Bianchi Joe, Eddie Roman, Braceebb, and everyone else who has given us helpful feedback on pricing the Mission Bicycles. Tomorrow we will be posting an announcement that we will be adjusting our pricing model for the Mission Bicycle significantly. Mission Bicycles will be available at a *base price of $790.*

Here is the _tentative_ revised spec sheet:

Chromoly track geometry frame
Front hub TH51 sealed cartridge
Rear hub TH51 Formula sealed cartridge
DT Champion spokes
Velocity Deep-V rims (hand assembled wheelset)
KMC chain
Steel cog
Steel lockring
Origin8 crank
Shimano bottom bracket
Sealed bearing headset
Alloy stem
Alloy handlebar
Alloy seatpost
Saddle
Tektra brake
Tektro lever
Ourey Grips

Customization options:
Custom powdercoat
Rim color
Grip color

It's mostly the same bike but with more generic tires, saddle, and cog + lock ring.

We will also _(probably)_ be offering the following part upgrades:

Phil Wood hubs: $225
DT Double Butted spokes: $25
Stronglight track crank: $150
Stronglight speed city road crank: $50
Stronglight BB JP400: $15
Soma Track Bar: $25
Vittoria Rubion tires: $40
FSA Vision Sizemore Stem: $20
Mike Aitken saddle $15
Selle Italia saddle: $35 
Rockwerks chromoly track cog: $10
Thomson seatpost: $50
Thomson stem: $70
Stronglight Lite LX headset: $40

Would love to hear your thoughts.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

what about 'normal' rims? not everyone likes deep Vs or colored rims... I suppose you would have to cut the price tho, since the Vs are being touted as a significant upgrade


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

FatTireFred said:


> what about 'normal' rims? not everyone likes deep Vs or colored rims... I suppose you would have to cut the price tho, since the Vs are being touted as a significant upgrade


We are keeping the hand built Deep V's to differentiate the Mission Bicycle from store bought fixies.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

zacker said:


> We are keeping the hand built Deep V's to differentiate the Mission Bicycle from store bought fixies.



will there be sticker kits available for the deep Vs?


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## zacker (Oct 26, 2007)

haha. yes the decals will stick fine to the deep V's and we're expecting a number of artists to design patters for the rims.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Y'all better hurry. According to other threads, this fixie thing's almost over. How're the nuvo-old school BMXers coming along?


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## BianchiJoe (Jul 22, 2005)

zacker said:


> Mission Bicycles will be available at a *base price of $790.*
> Would love to hear your thoughts.


I think the new pricing and the parts options are definitely a move in the right direction. I personally have a psychological barrier when a tried-and-true bike like the Pista retails for $150 less, but maybe that's just me.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bsnyc <a href="http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2007/11/this-just-in.html">says</a> Mission Bicycles have lowered their price from $950 to $790. better deal. if you're into that sort of thing.


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