# Zirbel



## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

I think it was a tainted supplement. I only hope we find out which one it was.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I wonder if this is why he wasn't listed on Garmin's roster.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

I hope it turns out to be a tainted supplement as well.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

Source doesn't matter. See Moninger and Hamilton as reference.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

Maybe not in the end result (suspension) but from my point of view being someone who's followed Zirbel and wanted to see him do well there's a big difference between taking some whey protein (just an example) and finding out its tainted and picking up a bottle of DHEA and knowingly breaking the rules.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I am really surprised 

and disappointed.




I hope the B sample is good


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Sherpa23 said:


> I think it was a tainted supplement. I only hope we find out which one it was.


Tainted? As in spiked or did Zirbel not read the packaging properly?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ultimobici said:


> Tainted? As in spiked or did Zirbel not read the packaging properly?


many a supplement has been proven positive for substances not written on the label. 
However, since that is rather well known, one should be even more careful with random snake oil. Especially if it's your living that's on the line.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

The Velonews story link:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/12/news/zirbel-a-sample-positive-for-dhea_102111


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Sherpa23 said:


> I think it was a tainted supplement. I only hope we find out which one it was.


This story was leaked a few days before Christmas when he was left off Garmin's roster.I hope it was a tainted supplement, but I certainly don't think so.

Zirbel's power during his TT is pushing 6.3 w/kg. Not proven doping at all and is considered the upper-end of natural.

However, this is for normal sized riders. Zirbel is closer to 200lbs. Let's say 195lbs, so 88kg. This would be a power of 540-560 watts, which is not natural.

I didn't believe it at the TT championships and I won't believe it now. I'm actually surprised he "only" tested positive for DHEA.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I'm inclined to believe if he's putting up a fight and calling for the B sample that he probably didn't knowingly do something wrong. Had he knowingly done something, I think he would have let himself fade into obscurity. FWIW, do YOU watch everything you ingest? 

In high school, he used to kick ass in cross country despite his size. I don't know what his power to weight ratio was back then. He didn't run with a power tap.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I'm inclined to believe if he's putting up a fight and calling for the B sample that he probably didn't knowingly do something wrong. Had he knowingly done something, I think he would have let himself fade into obscurity. FWIW, do YOU watch everything you ingest?
> 
> In high school, he used to kick ass in cross country despite his size. I don't know what his power to weight ratio was back then. He didn't run with a power tap.


I am not governed by WADA rules as I don't race. I am governed by the law so am up the swanny if I were to test positive for Cocaine, marajuana or Heroin though!


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Don't know Zirbel but I was/am pulling for him*

For no other reason than he was a US rider who seemed to be working his way up through the ranks.

I would say that fans of US racing need to be prepared for positive results coming back. The domestic scene probably has more than a few dopers in their ranks. We (fans of US domestic racing) cannot be so naive to think that the locals are not doping too.

Just my 2 cents.

bt


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

ultimobici said:


> I am not governed by WADA rules as I don't race. I am governed by the law so am up the swanny if I were to test positive for Cocaine, marajuana or Heroin though!


You have to work at getting those substances in your system.( track down a dealer, pay money,etc)
DHEA, besides being available in every drug store, is in quite a few vitamins/supliments...and may or may not be on the label.
Whether he was eating it by the hand full, using it to mask something else...or just got it by mistake...remains to be seen.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

i followed him for years and was delighted to hear of him getting a shot in europe with Garmin. Such a bummer.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> I'm inclined to believe if he's putting up a fight and calling for the B sample that he probably didn't knowingly do something wrong. Had he knowingly done something, I think he would have let himself fade into obscurity. FWIW, do YOU watch everything you ingest?
> 
> In high school, he used to kick ass in cross country despite his size. I don't know what his power to weight ratio was back then. He didn't run with a power tap.


Or you ask for the b sample in hope you pull a Hamburger and lucks out.


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## MJCBH (Nov 25, 2002)

I hope his "B" sample is negative too but I can't recall too many "B" samples coming back negative following the "A" sample positive.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

the mayor said:


> You have to work at getting those substances in your system.( track down a dealer, pay money,etc)
> DHEA, besides being available in every drug store, is in quite a few vitamins/supliments...and may or may not be on the label.
> Whether he was eating it by the hand full, using it to mask something else...or just got it by mistake...remains to be seen.


OK, but I can use caffeine, asprin etc without any sanction other than the damage it may or may not do to my body. If I mistake a regular latte for a decaff, no one will complain other than the owner of the coffee!

If you are a sportsperson, amateur or professional, it is your responsibility to determine that anything you ingest is within the rules. If in doubt, don't take it. Full F***ing Stop. Not rocket science is it?


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> If you are a sportsperson, amateur or professional, it is your responsibility to determine that anything you ingest is within the rules. If in doubt, don't take it. Full F***ing Stop. Not rocket science is it?


Is that why they are so freaking thin? They can't eat anything for fear of turning up positive in a drug test?


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

ultimobici said:


> OK, but I can use caffeine, asprin etc without any sanction other than the damage it may or may not do to my body. If I mistake a regular latte for a decaff, no one will complain other than the owner of the coffee!
> 
> If you are a sportsperson, amateur or professional, it is your responsibility to determine that anything you ingest is within the rules. If in doubt, don't take it. Full F***ing Stop. Not rocket science is it?


Spoken like a true non racer.(not that there's anything wrong with that)
I race Masters...and I'm mid pack at best.. and have been tested twice in the last 5 years.
1/2 of the banned list is stuff that is over the counter...stuff you probably take for colds or what ever.
But I have to stress over every label...hoping that the correct info is there...so I can enjoy my hobby?
Nope...not rocket science...
It doesn't affect you...but it does everyone who does race...so your perspective will be a little different.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

iliveonnitro said:


> However, this is for normal sized riders. Zirbel is closer to 200lbs. Let's say 195lbs, so 88kg. This would be a power of 540-560 watts, which is not natural.
> 
> I didn't believe it at the TT championships and I won't believe it now. I'm actually surprised he "only" tested positive for DHEA.


Seriously? Have you ever raced in a truly world class field? Have you ever raced against Tom? Do you even know the guy? 

I have a hard time thinking that if you could say yes to any of those questions, you would never say any of what you said. You have absolutely zero perspective to say what you did.

This is probably coming off as rude but I really think that if you really knew what really fast guys ride like, you wouldn't say that. Power meters don't tell nearly the story you seem to think. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, as the saying goes.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

spade2you said:


> I'm inclined to believe if he's putting up a fight and calling for the B sample that he probably didn't knowingly do something wrong. Had he knowingly done something, I think he would have let himself fade into obscurity.


spade2you,

In all honesty, you sound a bit naive there. 

Putting up a fight and calling for the 2nd sample, is SOP for dopers.

Just read back through the endless pages of the Doping forum. Or Google "doping cycling".


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

dave2pvd said:


> spade2you,
> 
> In all honesty, you sound a bit naive there.
> 
> ...


I know most will protest and fight, even in the wrong to protect their source of income, but Zirbel is a certified midwesterner. No point in picking a fight if you know you can't win it.  

Although the mentioning in today's article that he plans on considering alternate paths might be a slight indication of guilt, but I'll wait to pass any judgement until vial B.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

Zirbel's power during his TT is pushing 6.3 w/kg. Not proven doping at all and is considered the upper-end of natural.

However, this is for normal sized riders. Zirbel is closer to 200lbs. Let's say 195lbs, so 88kg. This would be a power of 540-560 watts, which is not natural.

I didn't believe it at the TT championships and I won't believe it now. I'm actually surprised he "only" tested positive for DHEA.[/QUOTE]

Wow guilty till proven innocent. Ever hear of Merkx or Indurain? 2 larger riders with exceptional abilities that have shown that hard work does indeed pay off.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Sherpa23 said:


> Seriously? Have you ever raced in a truly world class field? Have you ever raced against Tom? Do you even know the guy?
> 
> I have a hard time thinking that if you could say yes to any of those questions, you would never say any of what you said. You have absolutely zero perspective to say what you did.
> 
> This is probably coming off as rude but I really think that if you really knew what really fast guys ride like, you wouldn't say that. Power meters don't tell nearly the story you seem to think. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, as the saying goes.


Truly world class would be ProTour, so no, I have obviously not raced protour. I've raced with people in the protour, among many domestic pros. I have not raced against Tom, but against people who have beaten him -- but that's not too difficult, as Zirbel is not paid to win crits. Zirbel is a phenomenal person on the bike and in person, which is what makes this positive so difficult to swallow.

I was actually regurgitating some information. I do get to ride/race with a few pros who have raced with Zirbel, raced against protour teams, etc. Most people are really on the border when thinking about if he is clean or not. If he is clean, he really is maximizing what is humanly possible. If he isn't, however, few would be surprised based on his numbers and performance.

Now that he's tested positive, it's difficult to believe what he has accomplished is natural.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Hey Wookie,*



Wookiebiker said:


> Is that why they are so freaking thin? They can't eat anything for fear of turning up positive in a drug test?


Not for nuthin' ....but I just popped over to your blog through your signature link. A few thoughts;

1) You need to updatet the content
2) Your road bike is schweet!
3) I notice you don't have a cross bike, you need to get one
4) You're pretty ugly. 
5) You need to stop the Andro, you'll loose some of that upper body mass and immediately be as fast as the 1's 

Just thought you'd want some unsolicited input.

bt


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## empty_set (Nov 1, 2006)

spade2you said:


> I'm inclined to believe if he's putting up a fight and calling for the B sample that he probably didn't knowingly do something wrong. Had he knowingly done something, I think he would have let himself fade into obscurity. FWIW, do YOU watch everything you ingest?
> 
> In high school, he used to kick ass in cross country despite his size. I don't know what his power to weight ratio was back then. He didn't run with a power tap.


The deny everything/profess innocence is the modus operandi of the pro peloton.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

iliveonnitro said:


> Truly world class would be ProTour, so no, I have obviously not raced protour. I've raced with people in the protour, among many domestic pros. I have not raced against Tom, but against people who have beaten him -- but that's not too difficult, as Zirbel is not paid to win crits. Zirbel is a phenomenal person on the bike and in person, which is what makes this positive so difficult to swallow.
> 
> I was actually regurgitating some information. I do get to ride/race with a few pros who have raced with Zirbel, raced against protour teams, etc. Most people are really on the border when thinking about if he is clean or not. If he is clean, he really is maximizing what is humanly possible. If he isn't, however, few would be surprised based on his numbers and performance.
> 
> Now that he's tested positive, it's difficult to believe what he has accomplished is natural.


Okay, with all due respect, you don't know what his numbers are. You are speculating as to what his numbers are. Let's be clear about that.

Also, racing in a field with one or two guys who are on development squads of a team with a ProTour arm or one or two ProTour riders isn't even close. I am talking about a field like a World Cup or World Championship, that has all three reigning Olympic medalists and the reigning world champ and medalists. When you race in a whole field like that, you will get a whole new perspective on what fast is really like. And maybe not everyone is clean, but I feel like the majority probably are.

Furthermore, if Tom is really doped up with real stuff, it wouldn't be just TT's that he would win. Take it from someone who's been in breaks with him. For you to "be surprised that he 'only' tested positive for DHEA" doesn't really say anything other than you are pretty naive about what fast really is.

I'm not saying that no one can ever say that they suspect anyone else of taking stuff. But I'll tell you right now that if I suspect someone of taking something, it's not because of what I speculate their power to be. It's because I have ridden and raced with them extensively over a reasonable period of time and, in my view, things don't add up.

It seems that all you're saying is that the dude must be on something because he is reasonably fast.

I have a strong suspicion, based on a couple of articles distributed to us from USADA and the OTC that DHEA might be in a lot of normal protein and recovery supplements that are not labeled to contain it. Knowing Tom and having raced against him as much as I have, I would not be surprised if this is the case with his positive test. As I said, the only thing that I hope is that we find out what supplement he was taking that triggered the test.

By the way, the public was never informed as to what Kirk Obee (also on Bissell) tested positive for earlier this year and he was sacked right away and took his ban. Bissell is sort of standing by Tom so there is something here that is a little different than that other glaringly positive test.

I'm not saying that I have all the answers, because I don't. But I do know what I'm not saying...


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

Sherpa23 said:


> Okay, with all due respect, you don't know what his numbers are. You are speculating as to what his numbers are. Let's be clear about that.
> 
> Also, racing in a field with one or two guys who are on development squads of a team with a ProTour arm or one or two ProTour riders isn't even close. I am talking about a field like a World Cup or World Championship, that has all three reigning Olympic medalists and the reigning world champ and medalists. When you race in a whole field like that, you will get a whole new perspective on what fast is really like. And maybe not everyone is clean, but I feel like the majority probably are.
> 
> ...


+1 

And if 4th at WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS isn't world class, WTF IS?!?!?!

He says he's clean, I believe him, lets just all hope that the B is neg, shall we. I don't think they should ever publish the results of just the A sample, until the B is positive as well. Why bother, you need both, that's why there are two, because these tests have specificity and error rates, which two samples HELP eliminate. What does that mean, the DHEA test will light up when there are other substances present, not just DHEA, as with all these tests. So lets just hold on to our hats. Lets not try this man in the court of public opinion before he gets his real date in arbitration (which is mildly ridiculous in itself). 

This whole process is messed up. A sample positive, it gets leaked to the press and everyone is out with a pitchfork and noose. The guy is looking at a two year suspension which would mean it's over for him essentially, when he could very well be 100% innocent.... Put yourself in his shoes for 4 seconds. We don't know if he's guilty, you can't prove a negative, and now that these idiots have leaked the A sample result, well, no matter what people will think he's a doper. Have some compassion.

Why do people _*want *_someone to be guilty, which is bad for the sport and bad for all of us? Esp. considering all we know is a half paragraph someone typed up at velonews? The process hasn't even started yet, and everyone has already damned him.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Sherpa23 said:


> Seriously? Have you ever raced in a truly world class field? Have you ever raced against Tom? Do you even know the guy?
> 
> I have a hard time thinking that if you could say yes to any of those questions, you would never say any of what you said. You have absolutely zero perspective to say what you did.
> 
> This is probably coming off as rude but I really think that if you really knew what really fast guys ride like, you wouldn't say that. Power meters don't tell nearly the story you seem to think. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, as the saying goes.


So he used to bang your sister or whatever your personal connection is so that raises him above the level of scrutiny? He tested positive (obviously seeking to aid his performance for the step up to the Pro Tour and Garmin) and is most likely a doper (I say most likely until his "B" sample comes back positive and then the "most likely" disappears).


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Deleted


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> So he used to bang your sister or whatever your personal connection is so that raises him above the level of scrutiny? He tested positive (obviously seeking to aid his performance for the step up to the Pro Tour and Garmin) and is most likely a doper (I say most likely until his "B" sample comes back positive and then the "most likely" disappears).


Yeah, hang the f***er!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

why would a racer intentionally choose DHEA? There's no evidence it raises testosterone or has any other performance-enhancing effects. A dumb amateur racer now and then gets caught taking it (the recent masters track guy), but a pro racer getting tested 20+ times a year would have to be really stupid or desperate, and Zirbel doesn't seem like either.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Sherpa23 said:


> I think it was a tainted supplement. I only hope we find out which one it was.


Lol. It was the whiskey.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

Mr. Scary said:


> So he used to bang your sister or whatever your personal connection is so that raises him above the level of scrutiny? He tested positive (obviously seeking to aid his performance for the step up to the Pro Tour and Garmin) and is most likely a doper (I say most likely until his "B" sample comes back positive and then the "most likely" disappears).


Please. My sister is too smart to date bike racers.

I don't think that you read my post correctly. Any personal or professional connection doesn't put him above the level of scrutiny but his being reasonably fast at TT's doesn't make him positive. My point is this: If James pedaled 5 pedal strokes around guys who are great bike racers on the world level, he wouldn't be so quick to say what he did about Zirbel. People who race on the world level are fast. Guys who win national championship medals in international disciplines are fast. Guys who race World Cups, Worlds, Games, etc. are fast. Not otherworldly fast; just fast. And just because he's fast, it doesn't make him guilty.

I don't think his B sample is going to be negative. Things never work that way. For it to be negative, that would mean a failure of the test, which doesn't really happen. But it's not my place to take sides. Sure, I feel bad for the guy if it was an unintentional positive because my feeling is that is that it was exactly that - an unintentional ingestion. Nonetheless, I take a lot of hope that maybe the testing is working and that's a big deal to me.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

gamara said:


> Zirbel's power during his TT is pushing 6.3 w/kg. Not proven doping at all and is considered the upper-end of natural.
> 
> However, this is for normal sized riders. Zirbel is closer to 200lbs. Let's say 195lbs, so 88kg. This would be a power of 540-560 watts, which is not natural.
> 
> I didn't believe it at the TT championships and I won't believe it now. I'm actually surprised he "only" tested positive for DHEA.


Wow guilty till proven innocent. Ever hear of Merkx or Indurain? 2 larger riders with exceptional abilities that have shown that hard work does indeed pay off.[/QUOTE]

agreed. There's no "magic line" in terms of power, VO2max etc. that is a clear-cut indication of "doping". What about Cancellara? Zabriskie?

a few thoughts though - it appears a lot more people defend Zirbel than I see in cases of typical euro pro case (Schumacher, DiLuka, Valverde etc.). Is that the case? Do we tend to give US riders more slack because they are american? I am guilty when it comes to Hamilton, Landis, etc. - at least in early stages of their doping offenses, I used to think it could be some sort of mistake.

Second - if Zirbel was knowingly doping (IF!), he didn't seem to be afraid to go to Garmin-Transition, which likes to boast the toughest anti-doping regime. True - he got caught before he started riding for them, but are we supposed to believe Zirbel would stop as soon as he transferred? Makes me believe that even the Garmin's testing is a bit of a joke, really.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

chuckice said:


> Lol. It was the whiskey.


Only used by swimmers


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

eyebob said:


> Not for nuthin' ....but I just popped over to your blog through your signature link. A few thoughts;
> 
> 1) You need to update the content


Yea...it's the winter so not much to really update. The weather has been nicer than normal though so I've been out on my single speed a lot. I'll probably update it sometime in the near future though 



> 2) Your road bike is schweet!


Thanks....it's a very nice bike and since my team is sponsored by Velo Vie we get a nice deal on them 



> 3) I notice you don't have a cross bike, you need to get one


I had one, raced some cross last year and didn't really like it, though I had some descent results. I found there was way to many people (130+ people per field and they race 2-3 fields at a time) and this year the fields were even bigger. The cross crusade here had over 1700 participants this year for an 8 race series. Then there is the fact that cross racing extends the season from February to December....So no real off season 



> 4) You're pretty ugly.


I won't disagree with you there...my wife probably wouldn't either  



> 5) You need to stop the Andro, you'll loose some of that upper body mass and immediately be as fast as the 1's


If only 

I used to be a collegiate hammer thrower and haven't really lifted weights in years....Though in my youth I could throw some pretty serious weight around. So the upper body mass isn't going away any time soon. 

If the race is flat I can stay with the 1/2's...but throw in some hills and I'm toast 



> Just thought you'd want some unsolicited input.


Thanks for the input


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

I spent a little too much time away from this thread, apparently. I'll do my best at responding to everything. And, before I start, Ryan S, I'll go ahead and say that your personal attacks are pretty low. Maybe you were on the equivalent level of Zirbel on the track, but track is different than the road. I'd be willing to be there are far fewer dopers in track than on the road, so you're also competing against a cleaner field. Unless I have you confused as a different person...


Sherpa23 said:


> Okay, with all due respect, you don't know what his numbers are.


Of course. 


Sherpa23 said:


> When you race in a whole field like that, you will get a whole new perspective on what fast is really like. And maybe not everyone is clean, but I feel like the majority probably are.


Not denying or doubting that. I can agree that a vast majority of US pros are likely clean.


Sherpa23 said:


> Furthermore, if Tom is really doped up with real stuff, it wouldn't be just TT's that he would win. Take it from someone who's been in breaks with him.


You're right. He has won a ton of important races that aren't just TTs. His road results are amazing.


Sherpa23 said:


> I'm not saying that no one can ever say that they suspect anyone else of taking stuff. But I'll tell you right now that if I suspect someone of taking something, it's not because of what I speculate their power to be. It's because I have ridden and raced with them extensively over a reasonable period of time and, in my view, things don't add up. It seems that all you're saying is that the dude must be on something because he is reasonably fast.


Again, unless you're someone other than who I think you are, I don't exactly see your results lining up next to Zirbel on the road. You don't do his stage races, so how would you know Zirbel as well as you think you do? Genuinely curious, here. Also, I am definitely not saying he is on something because he is "reasonably fast." For one, he's more than reasonably fast. For two, don't forget HE TESTED POSITIVE, so he's obviously on something that the World Anti-Doping Agency thought was performance enhancing.


Sherpa23 said:


> By the way, the public was never informed as to what Kirk Obee (also on Bissell) tested positive for earlier this year and he was sacked right away and took his ban. Bissell is sort of standing by Tom so there is something here that is a little different than that other glaringly positive test.


This means nothing and you know it.


Sherpa23 said:


> I don't think that you read my post correctly. Any personal or professional connection doesn't put him above the level of scrutiny but his being reasonably fast at TT's doesn't make it surefire bet that he's positive either...And just because he's fast, it doesn't make him guilty.


RE: your response to Mr. Scary: He didn't put it eloquently, but he has a point. Also, either you read my post incorrectly, you are are lying by saying that he isn't above scrutiny. He's not guilty because he's fast, he's guilty because he tested positive. It's just more believable because he's fast and that's the simple nature of it.


Sherpa23 said:


> ...you are pretty naive about what fast really is.


Fast is pretty relative, so don't bother imposing that on anyone.


gamara said:


> Wow guilty till proven innocent. Ever hear of Merkx or Indurain? 2 larger riders with exceptional abilities that have shown that hard work does indeed pay off.


You may want to read more on history before you throw out names.

I would like to believe 55x11's theory the most. Why go to Garmin, a strict anti-doping team, if he knew he was on it. I'm hoping that he either didn't know (likely), Garmin couldn't have known (also likely), or there is seriously something wrong with Garmin (I pray not).


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## jms (Jan 9, 2008)

*Thanks.*



Sherpa23 said:


> I don't think his B sample is going to be negative. Things never work that way. For it to be negative, that would mean a failure of the test, which doesn't really happen. But it's not my place to take sides. Sure, I feel bad for the guy if it was an unintentional positive because my feeling is that is that it was exactly that - an unintentional ingestion. Nonetheless, I take a lot of hope that maybe the testing is working and that's a big deal to me.


Thanks for the insights. I always find your posts well though out, informative and interesting, especially those in the pro cycling forum. Your respect for your compatriots and your profession is admirable. I hope your faith isn't misplaced in this instance.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

The claim about Zirbel putting out 6.3 watts per kilo is utter BS. Here is one of his power files from 2006: http://www.fascatcoaching.com/powerfiles.html

His threshold is listed at 450 watts, which at 88 kilos makes his power to weight roughly 5.1. He is very large though and his power levels wash out the weight of his bike a bit, so a person who is roughly 70 kilos would have to produce around 5.3-5.4 watts per kilo to go the same pace uphill. 

Those are very good numbers but nowhere near 6.3. 

I raced Tour of Utah while Zirbel was there. For the Mt. Nebo and Snowbird stages I was in front of and behind Zirbel by 2-3 minutes respectively. According to my powertap I was doing around 4.5-5.0 watts/kilo for those climbs. The leaders of the stages were doing around 5.0-5.5 from talking to riders who were in the front group. Even if Zirbel were having a bad round of form, if his threshold were 6.3 he would have crushed everyone in the race. 

For the TT in the middle part of the race I averaged about 340-350 while riding a P4 with Reynolds SDV 66 wheels. Zirbel put roughly 1.5 minutes into me, finishing with 17:00 flat, I finished at about 18:40. If any aero weenies want to compute the wattage difference feel free. I have a good aero position, better than average. 

For the most part I believe the power estimates made by "experts" are hideously inaccurate, usually trending to the very high side of things.


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## CHL (Jun 24, 2005)

Hi Guys:

I don't race and don't have a clue as to what type regiment a professional bike racer requires. How frequently are these "banned substances" found in normal food? Also, what types of supplements do professional bike racers take? Are we talking about sports and recovery drinks that all of us can purchase from the local mega-mart or local health supply store? 

I have never heard of the substance he supposedly ingested. Reminds me a bit of the case with Danilo Hondo where doping control uncovered the presence of some obscure "banned substance." Do you guys believe WADA/UCI has gone a bit bonkers with some of the products that have become "banned?" 

CHL


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

iliveonnitro said:


> I spent a little too much time away from this thread, apparently. I'll do my best at responding to everything. And, before I start, Ryan S, I'll go ahead and say that your personal attacks are pretty low. Maybe you were on the equivalent level of Zirbel on the track, but track is different than the road. I'd be willing to be there are far fewer dopers in track than on the road, so you're also competing against a cleaner field. Unless I have you confused as a different person...
> 
> Of course.
> 
> ...


Okay, a couple of things here:

First, this is not a personal attack. None of it has been. A personal attack is a belittling comment on your personality, ability either intellectually or physically, etc. There has been none of that and there won't be. Let's make that clear.

Now, go back and read your original comment. You said, and please tell me how I have this wrong, that he puts out and unnatural amount of power and you're surprised that he only got popped for DHEA.

You basically said Tom is so fast that he must be on something. My point is that you don't know what his actual power is, and if you have really raced against top guys in a top field, your understanding of what realistic capabilities are would change. The good guys are faster than what you seem to be giving them credit for. That is the only point I am making.

Look at what Chase posted. If you can't look at that and admit that your original comment was way off base, then I am curious as to how accurate you think it was.

As for me, you don't really know what I do or how I do it. I've been away from the sport for 5 years and this was my first full season back on a bike. Since my focus is international track events, I could not afford with that much time away from the sport to try and win road events AND track events. So I race road events purely for the training. get in a lot of breaks, I chase a lot of things down, and I work for teammates. Usually, if I'm not leading out at teammate, I stay out of the sprints these days. That gives me the depth to be good where I want to be without totally burning me out. I raced from March all the way through December and I won two pro/elite national championship silver medals on the way, barely losing a national championship in one event, something I'm still not over. I was back racing world cups and would still be racing and hopefully preparing for Worlds if I didn't have a bad fall 3 weeks ago that resulted in a broken pelvis. I would never be able to do all of that if I raced road races purely for results. Maybe next year I will have better base to win more road races. If not, no big deal; I have bigger fish to fry.

To answer your question: Do I race at Tom's level on the road? No but it's not my focus. He's tried to be at my level on the track and couldn't do it. I couldn't be nearly the TT'ist that he is. We each have our strengths and if the goal is to be world champion or whatever, we have to play to our strengths. Have I beaten him in road events? Sure I have. Has he beaten me in road races? Sure he has. But all of that is utterly irrelevant. Why do I feel how I feel? Because I have been in breaks with him in certain races and I know how he rides. I have also been in breaks with guys that I am pretty sure are on something and I know how they ride. I don't know the guy well enough to say anything definitively about his choices but I have good intuition and I ridden hard alongside him enough to feel out what's what. 

As I said, I don't have all the answers and I don't pretend to but I am using personal experience from racing with the guy to form my opinion of this, which I believe in obviously.

So, now that I have put out more about me than I feel comfortable with, what else are you curious about?


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

Sherpa23 said:


> Please. My sister is too smart to date bike racers.
> 
> I don't think that you read my post correctly. Any personal or professional connection doesn't put him above the level of scrutiny but his being reasonably fast at TT's doesn't make him positive. My point is this: If James pedaled 5 pedal strokes around guys who are great bike racers on the world level, he wouldn't be so quick to say what he did about Zirbel. People who race on the world level are fast. Guys who win national championship medals in international disciplines are fast. Guys who race World Cups, Worlds, Games, etc. are fast. Not otherworldly fast; just fast. And just because he's fast, it doesn't make him guilty.
> 
> I don't think his B sample is going to be negative. Things never work that way. For it to be negative, that would mean a failure of the test, which doesn't really happen. But it's not my place to take sides. Sure, I feel bad for the guy if it was an unintentional positive because my feeling is that is that it was exactly that - an unintentional ingestion. Nonetheless, I take a lot of hope that maybe the testing is working and that's a big deal to me.


The chances of the B sample coming back negative are slim, granted, but people deserve to at least attempt to prove their innocence before they are burnt at the stake. Anyways, I don't believe he took something intentionally, and frankly I think he's done, he's probably going to get a two year ban, and that means it's curtains for him, and even if the B comes back negative, according to a amendment to the velonews article, he's not on garmin anymore. 

Hell of a price to pay if it's a mistake, losing everything you ever wanted, and worked for for the last 10 years. If he did dope, then he deserves his punishment, but again, I don't think he did, and at the moment there isn't enough evidence to say he did. I don't think he's above the level of scrutiny, I simply don't think he's been fully scrutinized yet, and perhaps we should wait until the process is complete. 

I know you aren't saying he should be torched, I just am continuing my point, you seem to be the most level headed person in this thread, probably more so than me.


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## Zipp0 (Aug 19, 2008)

Sherpa23 said:


> I have also been in breaks with guys that I am pretty sure are on something and I know how they ride.
> 
> So, now that I have put out more about me than I feel comfortable with, what else are you curious about?


Yeah - who are the guys you are suspicious of?  

Just kidding. Thanks for your insightful posts. I also suspect that the positive was due to contamination, as the performance benefit from DHEA is too small (or non-existent) to justify the risk of knowingly taking it. Also, the fact that he was negative in recent prior tests and a test 3 days later lead me to believe it was a very small amount due to contamination.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Ryan - Feel free to edit/delete parts of your post if you weren't comfortable posting it. It wasn't a difficult a search to find your results or who you are, though. I'll copy some of chase's post for reference.



chase196126 said:


> The claim about Zirbel putting out 6.3 watts per kilo is utter BS. Here is one of his power files from 2006: http://www.fascatcoaching.com/powerfiles.html
> 
> His threshold is listed at 450 watts, which at 88 kilos makes his power to weight roughly 5.1. He is very large though and his power levels wash out the weight of his bike a bit, so a person who is roughly 70 kilos would have to produce around 5.3-5.4 watts per kilo to go the same pace uphill.


FWIW, Zirbel was a neo-pro in 2006. Since then, it has been 3 years of full-time training and racing. His power and capabilities are much better than they were in 2006. How much can one expect to gain after turning pro and racing full-time for 3 years?

450w would be conservative, _if_ that's all it was in 2006. I'm having a hard time believing he does so well at only 5.1w/kg. You'd have a tough time winning a State TT Championship, let alone National TT, let alone 4th in the Worlds TT.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I am inclined to believe it was a tainted sample. I maintain a strong stance against doping and support dopers being punished, but this case seems a bit different. It suppose it is possible that I am biased here because I am a fan of Zirbel and was really looking forward to watching his career progress. I don't _want_ him to be guilty in the same way that I admittedly felt a bit of relief when Ricco got popped (that was probably the wrong way for me to feel, but I am human and I admit that I felt that). Zirbel has a talent that I think has been under-appreciated for the past few years and I was really looking forward to seeing him race in Europe. I am disappointed. 

That having been said, he tested positive for DHEA. Isn't that what Tyler got popped for earlier this year? I remember reading about it then, and after reading about it I found that I moved into a position with a bit more sympathy for Hamilton. I recall that Hamilton did not quarrel with the result or his ban, and instead made the simple statement that his taking of the supplement had absolutely nothing to do with a performance enhancing benefit. I believe him. Now, on the dawn of the biggest move of Zirbel's career that was going to allow him to excel on the international stage, after a decade of working his way up the domestic ranks, and to the pro tour team that is presumed to have the most aggressive anti-doping regime in the peloton, why in God's name would he take DHEA? It is a known banned substance that shows up easily in drug tests, and the scientific evidence for it's benefits is ambiguous at best. EPO and "blood doping" have unquestionable performance enhancing benefits and are in some ways easier to conceal. If Zirbel was going to dope, why would he risk his entire career on a drug that is difficult to conceal and may not actually carry any kind of real benefit to his performance. The fact that DHEA is available over the counter and widespread and legal out of professional sports makes it fairly easy to believe that it could have been ingested accidentally in a supplement. It really just doesn't add up to me. It is probably inevitable that he is going to receive a two year ban, but this isn't Ricco strutting around and belittling everyone's weakness or DiLuca insulting other riders that don't attack as often as he did, both at the same time that they were producing "superhuman" performances. Lets wait until all the facts come out and put off raking him over the coals until the situation is more clear. 

Though Zirbel has demonstrated an impressive talent and worthiness to compete against world class riders in the pro tour, I don't think that his performances have shown him to be beyond the realm of human capability.

-Chris-


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

iliveonnitro said:


> Ryan - Feel free to edit/delete parts of your post if you weren't comfortable posting it. It wasn't a difficult a search to find your results or who you are, though. I'll copy some of chase's post for reference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


why do you keep quoting w/kg for a time trialist?


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

A little wizz on the fire:
Does anyone know when DHEA went on the list?
Does anyone know what the life of DHEA is in the bloodsteam?
I'm sure it hasn't been released as to how much DHEA was in his system....but that level and how long it stays in the system would be real indicators of a tainted supplement vs dosing.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> 450w would be conservative, _if_ that's all it was in 2006. I'm having a hard time believing he does so well at only 5.1w/kg. You'd have a tough time winning a State TT Championship, let alone National TT, let alone 4th in the Worlds TT.



I think you are vastly over estimating the power produced by these individuals. For example, Matthew Busche did less than 5 watts per kilo at the Wisconsin state TT to take the win, averaging 347 watts for roughly 51 minutes. http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink,guid,572c0515-e51f-4903-92e6-127ed289cb4a.aspx

I myself have averaged 30.7 MPH on a flat course with 370 watts (powertap wattage, P4, disk and Zipp 808 front wheel for reference). 

I have a real hard time believing that he (Busche) was anywhere close to 6.3 watts per kilo at Tour of Utah, and he was going much better than Zirbel in all of the climbs. I train with several riders who were in the top 10 and 15 overall, as well as placing in the top 3 on the climbing stages. Sustainably they are doing around 5.3-5.5 watts/kilo. This is verified by my own power meter, not just by their word of mouth. 

Zirbel is very good, but he is not 6.3 watts/kilo good. Not even close. I would say 450 is right on for his threshold wattage.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

I believe him. He is not a stupid person and you would have to be stupid to take the stuff and think you would get away with it.

I like what he said in the recent interview with VN. If he doesn't get exonerated he wants to go teach HS science. To me he just seems like a really well grounded individual, too well grounded to cheat like this.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

serious non troll question :

can anyone show a case where a sample has been proven to have been 'tainted' per the claims of someone who has just failed a test?


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

chase196126 said:


> I think you are vastly over estimating the power produced by these individuals. For example, Matthew Busche did less than 5 watts per kilo at the Wisconsin state TT to take the win, averaging 347 watts for roughly 51 minutes. http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink,guid,572c0515-e51f-4903-92e6-127ed289cb4a.aspx
> 
> I myself have averaged 30.7 MPH on a flat course with 370 watts (powertap wattage, P4, disk and Zipp 808 front wheel for reference).
> 
> ...


A few things on Matt Busche, as I'm more than familiar with the course, him, and the competition. Matt's only real competition was from Eric Bean and Ryan Baumann. Eric is a phenomenal athlete in his own right, including multiple top 1/3/10 at Kona, AZ, Collegiate Triathlon Nationals, or other Ironman events. I would put him as his only real competition. Ryan elected to do the TT ala-Merckx, with drop bars, etc. If he was in his TT gear, it most likely would have been a different story.

Also, the numbers are a bit misleading, as he spent 30+ sec off the course, plus being confused, on top if it pouring rain that day, so he was being conservative for a lot of it. There is no doubt in my mind that Busche's FTP is higher than 4.9w/kg. Hell, you admitted it by saying "the top 3 on the climbing stages" were at 5.3-5.5w/kg...and Busche was there. It's certainly not 6.3w/kg, as that in the upper echelon of world class. Maybe soon, as it would be beyond awesome to see Matt do so well at the PT level. The kid is just developing as a cyclist.

Anyways, try winning a state TT in CA or CO, among other states, and you'd be a lucky man to do it on 5w/kg.

Back to the topic. I'm playing devils advocate because we should hold our own riders in the US to the same scrutiny as we would riders in other countries. Don't fall for the "DHEA isn't on the same level as other drugs" idea. DHEA can be used to mask testosterone use or be used in the off-cycle of steroids.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

the mayor said:


> Spoken like a true non racer.(not that there's anything wrong with that)
> I race Masters...and I'm mid pack at best.. and have been tested twice in the last 5 years.
> 1/2 of the banned list is stuff that is over the counter...stuff you probably take for colds or what ever.
> But I have to stress over every label...hoping that the correct info is there...so I can enjoy my hobby?
> ...


Weird- I race Masters and have never been tested. But I only use the First Endurance stuff because I am paranoid about cross contamination and they are extremely carefully about suppliers, have all the certificates ect.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

alexb618 said:


> serious non troll question :
> 
> can anyone show a case where a sample has been proven to have been 'tainted' per the claims of someone who has just failed a test?


http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2008/neben_court_case08


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> Weird- I race Masters and have never been tested. But I only use the First Endurance stuff because I am paranoid about cross contamination and they are extremely carefully about suppliers, have all the certificates ect.


I can't imagine any local level races testing, even at state championship events....regardless of the level....unless it's a pro race or a national level race. 

The cost is too prohibitive for promoters who are generally just squeaking by as it is...add in the extra cost of random drug testing and testing the winners would kill most race promoters.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

55x11 said:


> a few thoughts though - it appears a lot more people defend Zirbel than I see in cases of typical euro pro case (Schumacher, DiLuka, Valverde etc.). Is that the case? Do we tend to give US riders more slack because they are american? I am guilty when it comes to Hamilton, Landis, etc. - at least in early stages of their doping offenses, I used to think it could be some sort of mistake.
> 
> Second - if Zirbel was knowingly doping (IF!), he didn't seem to be afraid to go to Garmin-Transition, which likes to boast the toughest anti-doping regime. True - he got caught before he started riding for them, but are we supposed to believe Zirbel would stop as soon as he transferred? Makes me believe that even the Garmin's testing is a bit of a joke, really.


I don't believe its a patriotic thing that we are defending OUR riders vs euro pros. I cheer for all the guys but of course I have my own favorites. In terms of defending Zirbel or any one for that matter, you have to look at context. 

What has that individual done previously & is his results in line with what he is capable of?? Case in point is Schumacher. This guy is known as a classics rider & thats his rep. All of a sudden this guy is blowing guys out the back on climbs & in individual tt's beating the likes of Cancellara??. Yeah that might raise a couple of eyebrows.

I'm not sure if its the dopers rush letting them think that they are invincible & not get caught or what but it seems that all the guys that have been caught in the past were very blatant about it. Case in point is Ricco. Its not good enough to just win one stage but lets try for back to back to back stages. Rasise any eyebrows??

Going back to Zirbel, does his results in the past raise any alarms?? If his results in the past were due to doping, they sure didn't raise enough alarms to stop Garmin from initially offering him a contract. As Vaughters stated, its not his decision to drop Zirbel. Its the TEAM policy, period. When a team scouts a rider they go by his results & any pending cases against his biological passport. There are exceptions to this of course ie. Valverde who still thinks he's going to be doing the TDF.

Secondly, you have to look at the drug that is involved. If Zirbel was caught with epo, then I would have say that yeah, that guy must have taken it cuz how else would that get into your system?? There is no other explanation unless you had chemo or are anemic. Being a pro rider means that you have to be extremely careful of everything that you take cause anything & everything could possibly trigger a false positive. Not everything is listed on a package. 

That is why I would like to give Zirbel the benefit of the doubt & not publicly persecute the guy before he's been tried.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2008/neben_court_case08


Doesn't prove anything. All that story reports is the suit being filed.

I can't find a conclusion to the case anywhere, so presumably it's ongoing or has been dropped. Presumably, one or other side would shout from the roof tops if they were victorious?


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

alexb618 said:


> serious non troll question :
> 
> can anyone show a case where a sample has been proven to have been 'tainted' per the claims of someone who has just failed a test?


http://www.athleteslawyer.com/documents/Winter2008ABAEntertainmentandSportsLawyer.pdf

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...austrian_skier_wins_settlement_with_drug.html


US supplement manufacturers don't have to state anything that is or isn't in the bottle. There is no certification process and no testing of the products. As long as it's not toxic, they are good to go. In most of Europe, however, the products get tested and have to be certified.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Sherpa23 said:


> US supplement manufacturers don't have to state anything that is or isn't in the bottle. There is no certification process and no testing of the products. As long as it's not toxic, they are good to go. In most of Europe, however, the products get tested and have to be certified.


I'm not against supplements, but as a pharmacist, I tend to stay away as much as possible due to the simple fact that supplements and neutraceuticals are largely unregulated. Medications are monitored and sometimes you'll hear of a recall for contaminants or potency issues, but notice you rarely hear of supplements being recalled. The lack of recalls doesn't mean that purity and potency is good. 

I'm still hoping that Zirbel somehow is allowed to race, but if not, I'd like to see him go after the company who did this and/or perhaps encourage the govt. to tighten laws for supplements. I can't remember the exact year this particular FDA law was passed, but I believe it is something like 50 years or more. I could be wrong as I haven't cracked that book open after I took the exam.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Weird- I race Masters and have never been tested. But I only use the First Endurance stuff because I am paranoid about cross contamination and they are extremely carefully about suppliers, have all the certificates ect.


I've been the random pick twice at Masters Cross Worlds...and it's not because of my dazzleing performances.
You can also get a random or podium test at Nationals.
And although First End makes great stuff...and this is not a slam against them...YOU do not have any guarantee what is in there ...same as any vitamin/supplement. Even some prescription stuff can be iffy.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

I'll ask again:
Does anyone know how long DHEA has been on the list?
How long does it stay in the blood/system?
Is there an "allowed" amount?
I did a little searching...but didn't come up with anything.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

the mayor said:


> I've been the random pick twice at Masters Cross Worlds...and it's not because of my dazzleing performances.
> You can also get a random or podium test at Nationals.
> And although First End makes great stuff...and this is not a slam against them...YOU do not have any guarantee what is in there ...same as any vitamin/supplement. Even some prescription stuff can be iffy.


Yeah, not had the budget for Nationals. FE does guarantee what in there, and tests it too- part of the reason it is more expensive.

http://blog.firstendurance.com/2006/06/certificates-of-analysis/

Always amazes me when people buy crap at GNC et al. . . .


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

the mayor said:


> I'll ask again:
> Does anyone know how long DHEA has been on the list?
> How long does it stay in the blood/system?
> Is there an "allowed" amount?
> I did a little searching...but didn't come up with anything.


iirc, it was added in 1997. But that's from memory so don't quote me. I don't know if there is a threshold or just the detection of synthetic dhea that makes a positive. Sorry.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Yeah, not had the budget for Nationals. FE does guarantee what in there, and tests it too- part of the reason it is more expensive.
> 
> http://blog.firstendurance.com/2006/06/certificates-of-analysis/
> 
> Always amazes me when people buy crap at GNC et al. . . .


When every major drug company has recalls for tainted products...how good is that blog guarantee?
In a quote from Tommy Boy: Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I've got spare time.

But I do use some of their stuff.
And I'd really like answers to my questions on DHEA....cuz I got a little side story to go with it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

the mayor said:


> I'll ask again:
> Does anyone know how long DHEA has been on the list?
> How long does it stay in the blood/system?
> Is there an "allowed" amount?
> I did a little searching...but didn't come up with anything.


I did a quick search and found some pretty wide estimates of half life. I've seen as short as 15 minutes to a couple of days. 

Half life is only a small part of the equation. The rate of decay (linear or natural log) and the peak amount in the bloodstream all relate to how much could be in the bloodstream or urine at the time of the test.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

spade2you said:


> I did a quick search and found some pretty wide estimates of half life. I've seen as short as 15 minutes to a couple of days.
> 
> Half life is only a small part of the equation. The rate of decay (linear or natural log) and the peak amount in the bloodstream all relate to how much could be in the bloodstream or urine at the time of the test.


Thank you spade and Sherpa for your replies.
Here is my deal:In 2000 I had a year of medical issues and injuries, including broken bones, a head injury and a minor heart attack.While dealing with all this, I was also found( among other things) to have slightly low testosterone( I was in my mid 40's).
A doctor suggested DHEA...it was much hyped back then, over the counter ,cheap and testosterone replacement treatment was expensive( and the same doctor said it may be illegal in competition,even with a prescription). I never gave it a thought where it was over the counter and took a 25 mg dose almost everyday for years(along with a multi vitamin, glucosamine and sometimes fish oil/borage).
In 2004, I was random tested at Masters Worlds after a very back of the pack finish( I had taken a 25mg pill that morning..so about 6ish hours before).
It came back clean.
When I did some research and saw DHEA on the list, I stopped taking it. I also didn't notice any change after the stop ( Where I definately noticed changes after some of the prescription things I was given to get me back on my feet in 2000).

So the question is how much is needed to be detected?
How much DHEA is there actually in each pill...and is it consistent?
Is it a fluke that these guys are getting caught...or are they eating it by the handful?Or is the positive the result of something else( good or bad)?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

the mayor said:


> When every major drug company has recalls for tainted products...how good is that blog guarantee?
> In a quote from Tommy Boy: Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I've got spare time.
> 
> But I do use some of their stuff.
> And I'd really like answers to my questions on DHEA....cuz I got a little side story to go with it.


As a pharmacist, perhaps I'm a little biased, but here are a few thoughts on drug recalls. Drugs are prepared in various batch sizes. All ingredients, methods, and any other materials used in the process will be documented. Each batch produced will feature a lot number and multiple samples will be tested. If the test samples are proven to have a problem, the batch can be recalled. They're able to track lot numbers and only recall the batch or batches involved. 

Neutraceutical companies tend to keep lot numbers and doccument what was used, however as I stated in another part of the thread, since testing isn't required, any recall would be due to problems in post marketing analysis and probably would need to happen on a large scale to be noticed. I won't make any claims either way, but I think the impurity could either be a little here n' there or a lot! It's really impossible to say since that market is so unregulated. Simply put, just because you don't hear of recalls doesn't mean there aren't mistakes. It's more like claiming you're innocent because you didn't get caught.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

the mayor said:


> Thank you spade and Sherpa for your replies.
> Here is my deal:In 2000 I had a year of medical issues and injuries, including broken bones, a head injury and a minor heart attack.While dealing with all this, I was also found( among other things) to have slightly low testosterone( I was in my mid 40's).
> A doctor suggested DHEA...it was much hyped back then, over the counter ,cheap and testosterone replacement treatment was expensive( and the same doctor said it may be illegal in competition,even with a prescription). I never gave it a thought where it was over the counter and took a 25 mg dose almost everyday for years(along with a multi vitamin, glucosamine and sometimes fish oil/borage).
> In 2004, I was random tested at Masters Worlds after a very back of the pack finish( I had taken a 25mg pill that morning..so about 6ish hours before).
> ...


I think I recall testosterone/DHEA being popular with cardiology a few years back, then about 5 years later it was all about homocysteine. I don't mean to bash medicine too much, but sometimes it works, sometimes it's just a fad. 

As for the test, that's kind of up to the officials and their equipment. Most substances that are considered "banned" are measured at the minimum detectable level. Something like testosterone is measured within normal levels as hwas hematocrit before we could actually detect synthetic EPO. As to why yours wasn't detected, there are several possibilities. Perhaps the DHEA didn't have any drug in it. Perhaps the 25mg simply isn't enough to have detectable levels. It could be that the drug might take a while to be absorbed and distributed. If'n I'm wrong about all of those, you might have gotten lucky.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

spade2you said:


> I think I recall testosterone/DHEA being popular with cardiology a few years back, then about 5 years later it was all about homocysteine. I don't mean to bash medicine too much, but sometimes it works, sometimes it's just a fad.
> 
> As for the test, that's kind of up to the officials and their equipment. Most substances that are considered "banned" are measured at the minimum detectable level. Something like testosterone is measured within normal levels as hwas hematocrit before we could actually detect synthetic EPO. As to why yours wasn't detected, there are several possibilities. Perhaps the DHEA didn't have any drug in it. Perhaps the 25mg simply isn't enough to have detectable levels. It could be that the drug might take a while to be absorbed and distributed. If'n I'm wrong about all of those, you might have gotten lucky.


I hear you on the medicine deal.I've been busting myself up since I was a kid racing motorcycles. Some of the stuff I was given/told to do makes me wonder how I'm alive.

I used name and house brand DHEA...whatever was on sale. All bottles generally say 1 tab a day...same as the Dr recommended...and that's all I took. Taken dailey for years...taken 6 hours before the test.....but it comes back clean.

Which makes me wonder...how much are these guys taking to get popped? Just like when caffeine was illegal....you were allowed a couple of cups of coffee worth( and Euros tend to drink small cups...as opposed to American super sized)...but guys were getting bagged after 5+ hour races...wtf?

I will say this about DHEA....I never felt any effects at all( I know...don't ask me why I kept taking it). Where as real steroids....bang!...you know it...and you feel it when you quit. Even glucosamine...I can feel the difference in my knees...subtle, but it's there. Same with fish oil/borage. Even stuff like SportsLeggs and Optygen....I feel there is a difference. Maybe it's all mental/placebo effect.

And my results sure didn't improve from it. And I'll be glad to relinquish my 60th and 70th place results to the 3 or 4 people who finished behind me.But I'm not giving up those DFL's


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## jjmstang (May 8, 2009)

Spade2you... I believe back in 1990 or 91' senator Hatch was involved in some type of legislature for the supplements to be controlled by the FDA and it failed too pass.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

jjmstang said:


> Spade2you... I believe back in 1990 or 91' senator Hatch was involved in some type of legislature for the supplements to be controlled by the FDA and it failed too pass.


There is always a couple of these bills floating around. It's the flip flop spin game where an official ( senator, Governor,etc) puts it in motion, but may then vote against it....and then be able to say he was for it or against it, depending on who he was talking to.Always makes the news when some high school hero eats 12 bottles of something before the big hometown game and OD's....and some official tries to save the world( make a name for himself).


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jjmstang said:


> Spade2you... I believe back in 1990 or 91' senator Hatch was involved in some type of legislature for the supplements to be controlled by the FDA and it failed too pass.


That could be. I was only expected to memorized the stuff that passed and was current law.  Until this, I hadn't paid a whole lot of attention to these laws or perhaps the lack thereof.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

jjmstang said:


> Spade2you... I believe back in 1990 or 91' senator Hatch was involved in some type of legislature for the supplements to be controlled by the FDA and it failed too pass.


Given how much of the nutraceutical industry is in Utah, I doubt he was pushing too hard for anything that wasn't in the interest of the industry.


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## jjmstang (May 8, 2009)

Hatch might have been fighting against the legislation. That was a long time ago and my memory is slipping  I just know he was involved one way or another. Thanks.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

alexb618 said:


> serious non troll question :
> 
> can anyone show a case where a sample has been proven to have been 'tainted' per the claims of someone who has just failed a test?


Scott Moniger had a positive a few years back. He proved that it was in a store bought supplement but the suspension stood on the grounds that it was his responsibility to know what was going into his body. He was a pro and accepted it and I think the USCF/USADA recorded it that way as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Moninger


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Probably easy to get a TUE if you needed to in the future.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Just an update.

Rumors are floating around that all of Zirbel's supplements were tested for DHEA and one of his protein powders was tainted. I'm not sure if Garmin paid for it or not, but Garmin went through the same procedure and some of their supplements were also tainted with banned substances.

There's a good chance Zirbel will still get the full ban, though.


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## Zipp0 (Aug 19, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> Just an update.
> 
> Rumors are floating around that all of Zirbel's supplements were tested for DHEA and one of his protein powders was tainted. I'm not sure if Garmin paid for it or not, but Garmin went through the same procedure and some of their supplements were also tainted with banned substances.
> 
> There's a good chance Zirbel will still get the full ban, though.


Hopefully they out the supplement makers so everyone else knows that they are not trustworthy.


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## jjmstang (May 8, 2009)

iliveonnitro said:


> Just an update.
> 
> Rumors are floating around that all of Zirbel's supplements were tested for DHEA and one of his protein powders was tainted. I'm not sure if Garmin paid for it or not, but Garmin went through the same procedure and some of their supplements were also tainted with banned substances.
> 
> There's a good chance Zirbel will still get the full ban, though.


Got a link ??



-John


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## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

My best guess is that he was taking a "male enhancement" product to make him.....hmmmmm....bigger. Many contain DHEA but how embarassing would that be? His B sample and the explaining are yet to come.


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## empty_set (Nov 1, 2006)

And then this brief article from Pez:http://pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=7867&status=True&catname=Latest News


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

empty_set said:


> And then this brief article from Pez:http://pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=7867&status=True&catname=Latest News


I hope we find out the real reason. I've been riding with some pros in Tucson and all of them hate that this happened to Zirbel. They don't know if it was tainted, if it was an accident, if it was real, or what.

Zirbel was tested 3 days before the National TT, at the TT, and again 8 days after. He was also tested over 20 times this year, with only this one non-negative finding.

On the flip side, DHEA is used for end-of-cycle steroid use and having a high enough quantity in your system to set off a positive is difficult to do, even if a supplement is tainted.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

iliveonnitro said:


> I hope we find out the real reason. I've been riding with some pros in Tucson and all of them hate that this happened to Zirbel. They don't know if it was tainted, if it was an accident, if it was real, or what.
> 
> Zirbel was tested 3 days before the National TT, at the TT, and again 8 days after. He was also tested over 20 times this year, with only this one non-negative finding.


Most people test negative many, many times, right up to the point when they post positive. That means nothing.
Pros in Tuscon have as much idea about what Zirbel was taking (or not taking) as you or me.


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## onefascruzan (Dec 28, 2006)

I don't know why people waste their time w/ this stuff. Coffee has more of a benefit and is legal. Tainted product? Doubt it, but that's what I would say, too. I think most domestic pros are clean but I am amazed at how many dirty names keep showing up as DS or whatever. People just don't pay attn. Wasn't Lim Floyd's trainer when he won the tour? Open your eyes, sheeple. Oh, anyone know where I can get a scrip of Dynepo and some sustanon? Maybe a used centrifuge in good condition?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

B sample confirmed positive too.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/zirbel-confirms-b-sample-is-also-positive

It'll be interesting to see what defence is offered, if any.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Defense is already set as a tainted supplement. He won't put up a tough fight.

I'm still up in the air on how I truly feel about this.


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## ronnoX (Mar 30, 2009)

What if...
it does turn out to be a tainted supplement 
it is a team supplied supplement
could he make the team pay him even though he can't race?

If he tests positive because of something they gave him shouldn't they be obligated?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> It'll be interesting to see what defence is offered, if any.


That it's in a lot of supplements and not even listed as an ingredient in an industry that's basically unregulated. You don't like US riders, do you?


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> Defense is already set as a tainted supplement. He won't put up a tough fight.
> 
> I'm still up in the air on how I truly feel about this.



I'm in the same boat. I'm not really sure what to think.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

spade2you said:


> That it's in a lot of supplements and not even listed as an ingredient in an industry that's basically unregulated. You don't like US riders, do you?


I like US riders just as much as French, Italian, Dutch, Belgian, Spanish or British riders thanks. I was brought up on Winning Magazine in the 80's and followed Lemond, Hampsten & 7-11 avidly. I even admire the original Armstrong of the early 90's.

What I don't like is riders who flout the rules, either by design or incompetence.

As an athlete riders sign up to a set of rules. One of those rules is that you are responsible for checking the make up of what you ingest. If there is any doubt then you should not ingest the item in question.

Tom Zirbel has been unfortunate enough to fall foul of this simple rule. 

I find riders like Ricco, Hamilton, Di Luca and Landis to be an insult to my intelligence. As for Zirbel, I'll wait and see what his defence is and more importantly, how it is presented. So far he has been quite candid.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

ronnoX said:


> What if...
> it does turn out to be a tainted supplement
> it is a team supplied supplement
> could he make the team pay him even though he can't race?
> ...


If he was doped unknowingly, he would have to prove it. That won't happen. If it did, however, he would get a very short suspension (at most).

Good luck proving you tested positive for DHEA and someone else had it in for you. Good luck proving a substance is tainted. If he really believes this, it could happen. This is another reason why I am doubting him.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

ronnoX said:


> What if...
> it does turn out to be a tainted supplement
> it is a team supplied supplement
> could he make the team pay him even though he can't race?
> ...



In 2008, Iljio Keisse tested positive for a couple banned stimulants (I don't recall exactly but I think one was cathine) and he blamed one on an OTC cold med and the other on a tainted ZMA supplement supplied by his team, which was sponsored in part by the manufacturer. The manufacturer in question denied this and I think proved that it wasn't their product. He was fired from his team and when they threw out his case last year, his old team refused to take him back in part because of his allegations against the sponsor/team.

Anyways, that's the only story I know that sort of answers your question.

And as for Iljio? He now has a contract with Quickstep...

I guess it


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/zirbel-gets-two-year-ban-retires-from-cycling

still pretends he didnt cheat, retires


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

alexb618 said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/zirbel-gets-two-year-ban-retires-from-cycling
> 
> still pretends he didnt cheat, retires


He's being realistic and realizing that after the suspension, he's probably not going to be able to stay that competitive. 

I don't think he's pretending. It's probably just one of the many tainted supplements, but then again, he's an American and they're all dopers. He's probably friends with Landis, etc.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

ah yes the good old 'tainted supplements'


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

alexb618 said:


> ah yes the good old 'tainted supplements'


Well, half the crap in places like GNC are tainted. _ But why would a Pro be buying stuff like that._ Most teams supply nutrition supplements straight from their sponsors. A lot of people use First Endurance products despite the cost just because they are clean and extremely well tested for contaminants.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

if there are so many tainted substances why hasn't Zirbel announced a specific product in his possession that they tested and found to contain traces of DHEA? Entirely lacks any credibility if there's no smoking gun...


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Good riddance.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

Coolhand said:


> Well, half the crap in places like GNC are tainted. _ But why would a Pro be buying stuff like that._ Most teams supply nutrition supplements straight from their sponsors.


This is a popular misconception. I have raced on three different pro teams over the years and none have ever supplied me with supplements. In fact, I don't think that any have ever been sponsored by a supplement maker. And two of them were teams that did the grand tours (Although, and needless to say, I was never on any of the grand tour squads and I can pretty much guarantee that they had access to things I never had). Granted, this was a few years back but still...

Not to say that it doesn't happen, as I have friends that get supplements through their teams, but it's not nearly the norm everyone seems to think it is. that said, I don't know if Bissell had a supplement supplier or not and if so, if they supplied everything each rider uses.

This is just like any other job where you have to perform your individual tasks properly or you'll be fired. It is the riders individual responsibility to be well prepared to do the job at hand. That means training, nutrition, coaching, etc.

Another popular misconception is that pro cyclists are all coached by the DS or someone else from their team.

Anyway, just wanted to clear that up.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

another misconception is that 'nice guys' are the only ones who stumble upon these mysterious 'tainted supplements'


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