# Torn about Powertap wheel decision: please help



## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

Me: 187cm, 73kg, 38yo
I ride 100-150 miles a week, some of those in fast group rides and would like to get competitive again. 
Currently ride Fulcrum Racing Zeros and love those wheels. Rigid, true, nearly maintenance free. I find them to be a very good match for my frame (Look 585).

Now I want to add power measurement to make the most of those precious few hours I get to ride. I am set on Powertap and I'll ride those wheels every day.

Rims will be either H+Son Archetype or HED Belgium (the 23mm version).

Front wheel should be pretty easy, radial lacing 20H if archetype or 24H if Belgium. Hub could be WI, DT240s or Powertap.

The rear wheel is where I am stuck. Should I go 28H with the Powertap G3 or 24H with the soon-to-be released Powertap GS?

The G3 is made by Joytech and is available in all drillings from 20 to 32H.
The GS is made by DT Swiss and will only be made in 24H drillings for straight pull spokes.

What I find really attractive about the GS is that the bearing maintenance interval should be significantly greater than with the G3 (per powertap). Given the $350 price tag asked by Powertap to change bearings, the increased price of the GS vs the G3 ($1089 vs $789) would be offset within 5 years.

BUT the GS will only be made in 24H version and for my weight I am wondering if this would be adequate. The HED and H+Son rims are both ~475g, which should help with the lower spoke option.

Soooooooo, what do you all think? GS or G3? Any advise appreciated.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

You have some thinking to do!!!!

The first word you used in describing your Zero's is "Rigid". So lets look at your choices from this prospective.
The Zero rear is 20.5/15, 30mm deep and has 21 spokes. The HED is 23/17 and 24mm deep. The HED offers more rigidity due to its extra width but less rigidity due to the shorter depth; how much more (or less) I am not sure but my guess is the Zero is a more rigid rim than either the HED or the Archetype.

Going with this assumption we will need to make-up the lost rigidity with the spokes. This is accomplished with either sturdier spokes (larger crossection) or greater number or both. The Zero uses the wide bladed butted spokes; wider and heavier than what is commercially available (i.e. CX-Rays). So our main fallback in arriving to the same rigidity as the Zero with the new wheels is to use a significantly higher number of spokes. For your predicament, IMO, this equates to 28 and therefore the G3. 

The geometry of the G3 shows an average bracing angle and good Tnds so no problems from that end. I dont know what the geometry of the new GS is.

I hope it helps.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

How much of a hurry are you in?

The GS seems to be "vaporware" at this point, and no announced released date at the website URL you provided.

Furthermore, the G3 can be considered "mature" technology now. Potential issues with GS are unknown.

I think the issues with Powertap bearings are overstated, if you mainly ride in dry weather. Many, if not most, of the bearing problems seem to arise from frequent rides in wet weather or dusty conditions.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

the G3 is a fine hub… I would not wait for a GS personally.. I don't see it as late special.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

Alright, the wheel builders have voted! 3:0 for the G3. No love for the GS here.

What spokes/lacing would you chose for the rear wheel? 
I am considering DT comp/3x/3x but could also use DT rev on the NDS to help with tension balance.

I ride in SF bay area and will likely only ride the bike with powertap on dry days. For wet days, I have my Breakway with some rain tires.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

You weigh about same as me, ~160-ish lbs. 

I had an older Powertap "Elite Pro" custom built, and erred on the overbuilt side: 28 Sapim CX-ray laced 2x.

Super durable, but in hindsight I would have been fine on 24 spokes laced 2x. 3x lacing just seems overkill, for training & racing at our body weights. But if I was commuting or touring with heavy loads, sure.

I don't build wheels and can't meaningfully comment on your spoke model suggestions, but I will say I have nothing but love for the Sapim CX-ray "aero" spokes.

CX-ray are on 3 of my wheelsets:

older Powertap (since sold)
Campy Zonda (my everyday wheel).
Zipp 404 (race wheel).


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## Eyorerox (Feb 19, 2008)

Why not have the cycleops powertap wheel. They use the Velocity A23 rim?


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

Eyorerox said:


> Why not have the cycleops powertap wheel. They use the Velocity A23 rim?


Two things:
1- these are 32/3x front and rear 
2- The HED C2 is a higher quality rim than the A23.

Now I could get the Powertap Ardennes for $1900 but I can build the Powertap/HED Belgium 24/28 set for close to $1000


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

FuelForThought said:


> What spokes/lacing would you chose for the rear wheel?
> I am considering DT comp/3x/3x but could also use DT rev on the NDS to help with tension balance.
> 
> .


I would do 2x/2x. This lacing pattern is fine with Powertap and will slightly favor the bracing angle over Tnds which is a fine trade off considering that at around 60kgf Tnds is still fine (Tds=125-130kgf). The 3x pattern decreases the bracing angle by about .2 deg and adds about 2 kgf to the Tnds.
Splitting hair here but its a custom wheel afterall.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

I will simply add that I think you're looking at a good set of wheels. Having had the Powertap alloy wheels and having a decent amount of problems with them getting something else made up it probably a good idea. I think my set was built of poorly or something, they didn't stay true very long and I had one set warrantied since it would stay true even after a few rides. I'm considerably heavier than you at 220 but a 32 spoke wheel shouldn't be having troubles.

I have replaced those wheels with the archetypes build to 105 hubs and they are a solid wheel. I really like the rim. I imagine the HED is even better. The extra depth on the HED and H+ son seems to keep the rim a little more stiff than the A23's as well, though I like the A23 in general if built up better than what the powertap set was.

I think double butted spokes are better than straight gauge. I've never broken double butted spokes but I've broken a reasonable amount of straight gauge for whatever reason. Usually straight gauge are on factory built stock wheels that I've had which I'm sure has a lot to do with it as well.

Boyd Cycling also has a powertap build that can be done that is quite similar to what you are looking for. It would cost more than the $1000 you mentioned though.
2013 Vitesse alloy clincher - Boyd Cycling


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Cool rim profile diagram:


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

looigi said:


> Cool rim profile diagram:
> 
> View attachment 288870


Interesting


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Yeah, that's an even cooler diagram! Is that rims available? What's the weight?


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

looigi said:


> Yeah, that's an even cooler diagram! Is that rims available? What's the weight?


Is this a Zipp 101? Probably not because shape is not torroidal.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

looigi said:


> Cool rim profile diagram:
> 
> View attachment 288870


I'd be curious to see how the new HED Belgium profile compares to the old one that is on the diagram.


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## porterhouse (Jan 27, 2009)

I am a little shorter and a little heavier than you but my daily wheels are C2s with a Chris King front hub and Powertap pro, 24/28, radial up front and 2x on both sides on the rear. Originally I was looking to do something with less spokes but wanted the durability of 28 spokes in the rear and could not find a C2 20 hole rim for the front so I ended up with the 24. The shop that laced them up for me commented that it was and easy build, the rims were straight and stayed true as the tension was brought up.

Other than being a little heavy, I have no regrets with the build. They ride nice and have been bombproof despite all of the conditions I have ridden them in over the past 18 months or so.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

FuelForThought said:


> I'd be curious to see how the new HED Belgium profile compares to the old one that is on the diagram.


I believe this diagram is straight from prowheelbuilder.com as they're promoting custom builds with the wider rims. I think the new C2 is just 2 mm wider (Ardennes +). It's on HED's website.



> Quote Originally Posted by looigi View Post
> Yeah, that's an even cooler diagram! Is that rims available? What's the weight?
> Is this a Zipp 101? Probably not because shape is not torroidal.


I'm pretty sure that's Boyd's rim since he posted the altered image up and his wasn't included in the regular diagram


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

bikerector said:


> I'm pretty sure that's Boyd's rim since he posted the altered image up and his wasn't included in the regular diagram


Well yeah, but when I checked the Boyd site and didn't see. Perhaps it's something that's in the works?


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

looigi said:


> Well yeah, but when I checked the Boyd site and didn't see. Perhaps it's something that's in the works?


I was assuming it was the vittesse wheel but the diagram shows 24mm wide and 30mm tall and the description of the vitesse is only 23mm wide and 28mm tall. My error.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

OP, use the G3 and get 28 spokes with DT Aero Comp spokes on the drive side and CX-Rays or Aerolites on the non drive side.

That will give you a robust wheel that will be accurate, stable, laterally and torsionally stiff, and most importantly, durable. No sense quibbling over the final 20g. I would use either the Hed, Archetype or Pacenti SL23.

Three years from you now you won't regret it.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

ergott said:


> OP, use the G3 and get 28 spokes with DT Aero Comp spokes on the drive side and CX-Rays or Aerolites on the non drive side.


Thanks Eric. That is exactly the info that I was looking for. This reinforces what has already been said in the thread and I can now feel 100% confident that I'll get the right wheel.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

FuelForThought said:


> Thanks Eric. That is exactly the info that I was looking for. This reinforces what has already been said in the thread and I can now feel 100% confident that I'll get the right wheel.


You are quite welcome. All the best with your wheel.


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