# Chorus v Record vs Super Record



## sheldonmyles (May 12, 2011)

Anyone have a view on how to make a decision of campy chorus vs record vs super record, in terms of duability and efficieny (i weigh plenty, so am not concerned about weight differerences)


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

I strongly suspect Chorus is the best buy if you don't care about weight. The higher price for Record and SR buys you mostly slightly lighter weight and prettier bling. Very ilttle functional difference, if any. I think the internal guts of the shift mechanisms are identical, except for some titanium bits in the more expensive ones. Not worth an extra thousand bucks, IMHO.


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## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

Between Chorus and SR, you can get about half of the overall weight reduction and 3/4 of the rotational mass by opting for a SR rear gear cluster. It's about $100.

Functionally there is very little difference, with the advantage IMO to Chorus.

The SR has ceramic bearings, which i personally have little interest in.


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## sheldonmyles (May 12, 2011)

thanks - what's a "SR rear gear cluster" (...i imagine that is not part of the chorus groupset...)


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

sheldonmyles said:


> Anyone have a view on how to make a decision of campy chorus vs record vs super record, in terms of duability and efficieny (i weigh plenty, so am not concerned about weight differerences)


Hell...even the lesser groups are pretty good. Any of these will be fine for any use--just depends on how much money you have to spend.


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## sheldonmyles (May 12, 2011)

never mind...of course...super record ....


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

sheldonmyles said:


> Anyone have a view on how to make a decision of campy chorus vs record vs super record, in terms of duability and efficieny (i weigh plenty, so am not concerned about weight differerences)


R and SR cassettes have more Ti cogs. They wear out much more quickly than their steel Chorus sisters. So I would recommend staying with Chorus cassettes to save on operating cost. 

In terms of durability, Chorus may win a bit against Record based on this alone, everything else have similar durability. I have no experience with SR ceramic bearings, however.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

I have 2011 SR one one bike, and I have Veloce 2011 on my city bike, no difference between them except the weight and bling factor the SR radiates!


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## Eisentraut (Sep 18, 2008)

Chicks dig SR.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I don't understand the need for SR and Record. It just allows Campy to charge an even more ridiculous price for SR while offering very little advantage over Chorus in Record. I liked the Record only days better. I guess I'm becoming a curmudgeon, just like my dad who swooned about the old 70s SR.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I may be off on this, but I think for 2011 Chorus lost the brake pivot bearings. Otherwise there's not much difference besides a little less weight from Ti and alloy bits. And a lot less money.

Somebody once remarked that Chorus was the "thinking man's (or woman's) group." Pretty dead on.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*cassette*



orange_julius said:


> R and SR cassettes have more Ti cogs. They wear out much more quickly than their steel Chorus sisters. So I would recommend staying with Chorus cassettes to save on operating cost.


I have a Record drive train and use Veloce' cassettes. They shift the same, are just as durable as Chorus, and cost a lot less. 40 grams is less than two swallows of water.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

You have to look deep down inside and ask yourself......."Am I a pretentious person".

If the answer is yes, get the Record. 

If you are suffering from "man problems", get the Super Record.


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## onespeedbiker (May 28, 2007)

DrSmile said:


> I don't understand the need for SR and Record. It just allows Campy to charge an even more ridiculous price for SR while offering very little advantage over Chorus in Record. I liked the Record only days better. I guess I'm becoming a curmudgeon, just like my dad who swooned about the old 70s SR.


It's all about supply side economics and the trickle down theory. Someone has to pay for the R&D you eventually enjoy with Chorus and those are the ones that buy Record, and SR. Capisce?


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## BhSimon (May 9, 2011)

It's all about the weight, really. If you don't care about that, go the Chorus. It's a very good groupset.


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## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

Even Athena is good but if you upgrade to the carbon crank and shifters, the cost difference up to Chorus is not much.

Record if you want some bling.

SR if you want super bling.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Chorus is by far the best buy of the three like the others have said. BTW, the SR's ceramic bearings really have little to no rotational advantage over steel bearings of the same quality. They also wear out a lot faster. Chorus is still the better buy. However, Athena is good too if you want to save even more.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

metanoize said:


> I have 2011 SR one one bike, and I have Veloce 2011 on my city bike, no difference between them except the weight and bling factor the SR radiates!


Veloce is eleventy?


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

There's no reason to consider anything less than something Super.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

sheldonmyles said:


> (i weigh plenty, so am not concerned about weight differerences)


If you weigh plenty, then there's no reason to worry about the weight of your groupset. Losing a pound is nothing for you, but it's a thousand bucks in a groupset. Functionally there is no significant difference.


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

I believe current Chorus and Record brifters are identical, and I mean identical, save for the logos. At least that's what Competitive Cyclist says. Of course, if you're a big Campy fan maybe its worth paying more for that Record logo.


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## T-Doc (Apr 4, 2002)

I have used all three and unless you have lots of cash to get the bling, chorus is plenty.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

The only item that I would want to upgrade is the calipers, from Chorus to Record. That is a decent weight savings and they look better. 

Everything else, Chorus rules.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Sablotny said:


> I believe current Chorus and Record brifters are identical, and I mean identical, save for the logos. At least that's what Competitive Cyclist says. Of course, if you're a big Campy fan maybe its worth paying more for that Record logo.


...There's that word again.."brifters."


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Sablotny said:


> I believe current Chorus and Record brifters are identical, and I mean identical, save for the logos. At least that's what Competitive Cyclist says. Of course, if you're a big Campy fan maybe its worth paying more for that Record logo.


Oh that word. Campagnolo don't make brifters, and neither does SRAM. But you can brift with Shimano. I hate that unintented functionality.

There's two holes on the Record Brake levers. Chorus is smooth.


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

Lever vents. Ah, an "upgrade" for 2011!

I enjoy "brifter". It excites a certain set, like sloping top tubes and Shimano on Colnagos.


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

OK, I looked on Campy's web site. They are officially "Controls". So you don't shift or brake on Campy, but Control your speed and gear ratios. 

Anyway, been a Shimano guy for two decades but I think my next road group will be Campy. I'm not a hater.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Yeah, the difference between the three is bling/weight.

I have SR (3 vents!), but my cassettes of choice are Chorus.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

A few people have mentioned the Athena group. Be aware that the "Power Shift" shifters in the Athena family , DO have reduced functionality compared to the "Ultra Shift" mechanism in the Chorus-Record-SuperRecord family. 

Ultra Shift can go up to 3 cogs larger & 5 cogs smaller, with one sweep of the levers.
Power Shift can do 3 larger, but only 1 smaller.

Also, I've read the 'feel" between Ultra- and Power-shift is different, but never personally compared it.

Anyway, IMO Chorus is the best price/performance group. It gives up only modest weight to the Record and SR groups. Athena group is substantially heavier, which may or may not matter to you.

The ceramic bearings on SR crankset might be a good thing if you ride on wet or very dusty roads a lot -- those bearings are more durable. But cleaning the BB shell and/or replacing steel sealed bearings more frequently, likely still comes out ahead in cost.

There are small cosmetic differences that might lead you to mix & match components. Exmpl, I have a '09 Chorus group, but wanted the all black Record brake calipers (Chorus was silver).


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Just checked the parts on the 2011 levers. Chorus & Record have the same assembly part #. SR has it's own but appears identical - probably some minor difference, but not discernable looking at the parts.

Athena, Centaur and Veloce are all "escape" mechs.

Personally, I've got enough of the old stuff to last a long time.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I believe there is a carbon weave insert on the SR upshifter. Optics only, alas.


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## chas0039 (Jun 26, 2007)

bikerjulio said:


> Athena, Centaur and Veloce are all "escape" mechs.
> 
> .


I am aware of the problems with the original Escape mechs; are the Power-Shift mechs really Escape or are you just referring to Power-Shift as "escape" as it relates to the dumbing down of the shifters to the single clicks of the Escape?

Too bad Campy has abandoned the philosophy they had when I started with them, where all the shifters were basically the same features and quality. I never thought I would see a day where Campy shifters became "throw-away" like Shimano.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Mix and match for the best weight savings vs. $, that is what I have done.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

chas0039 said:


> I am aware of the problems with the original Escape mechs; are the Power-Shift mechs really Escape or are you just referring to Power-Shift as "escape" as it relates to the dumbing down of the shifters to the single clicks of the Escape?
> 
> Too bad Campy has abandoned the philosophy they had when I started with them, where all the shifters were basically the same features and quality. I never thought I would see a day where Campy shifters became "throw-away" like Shimano.


my bad. no they are not the same as "escape". To this day I have not seen much in the way of reviews of the Power Shifts.


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

I too am thinking of a a full chorus group, coming from a Sram red bike with force derailleurs. Then thought maybe chorus with record crank, brakes and maybe rear derailleur would be an optimal build for perfomance, weight and cost. 

The chorus rear derailleur (+14 grams over Record) I think i might stick with since I think I can upgrade the pulleys with SR once the stock ones wear out, the brakes Record cause I want the bearings, I've palyed with record and chorus brakes from the 10 speed groups and they always felt nice cause of the bearings. If the 11 chorus brakes with bushings are not noticeable when compared to record, I'll just go for those then. 

My weight comparisons are based on campys site. A chours cassette 30 grams more than record. The Chorus Front Derailleur is 2 grams more than Record and 4 than SR so that's a no brainer to stay with that. Another no brainer is the shifters, chorus and record are the same weight, I like the cut outs and colored 11 logo, but it's not enough to sell me, and SR is only 7 grams less.

However the crank I'm sort of tossed up on, I want the Record cause it's lighter (40 grams), prettier but mostly cause the hollow arms and spider arms seems like it would be stiffer, but then hear that chorus is actually stiffer, so I'm not sure. For a brief moment thought about splurging on a SR Ti Crank, but 80 grams isn't that much really. Any info about cranks would be much appreciated.

Unfortunately I have to relace my edge/enve rear wheel with an 11 speed compatible hub. My white industries H2 is only good with campy 10, the new H3 will work. Sucks, cause when I got the hub I thought I would never consider campy, but with my red approaching, or at 20,000 miles, I'd like a change. Di2 just doesn't seem all that to me after trying it, and Dura ace mechanical is awful, kind of a step backwards from 7800


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## cyclust (Sep 8, 2004)

icsloppl said:


> Between Chorus and SR, you can get about half of the overall weight reduction and 3/4 of the rotational mass by opting for a SR rear gear cluster. It's about $100.
> 
> Functionally there is very little difference, with the advantage IMO to Chorus.
> 
> The SR has ceramic bearings, which i personally have little interest in.


A Super Record cassette for $100? Where? I think they're closer to $300.


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## tracerprix (Mar 19, 2011)

This is exactly the forum I have been looking for. Thanks for all the good posts. I'm debating between these 3 groups. Good info here.


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## dhtucker4 (Jul 7, 2004)

I have a 10-speed Chorus gruppo, but not the crankset. I live on the Gulf Coast, so I see no reason to spring for a 11-speed upgrade. But getting a 10-speed chain and 10-speed Chorus cassette is near next to impossible. I would rather have a Campagnolo chain/cassette combo when I change them. 

I think Chorus is pretty near Dura Ace standard, but I know that the 7900 brifters can get fouled between water, road grit, etc. What was Shimano thinking? You don't see that on the SRAM shifters, and the only problem with Campagnolo is that thumb tab on the shifters - it bugs the hell out of me. Both SRAM and Campagnolo have clean shifters, whereas with the new Shimano shifters - you can see the guts just hanging out for all to see.


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

I went with full chorus, for just a tad less than the price of full record I was able to grab an extra cassette and the vento reacion wheelset. First ride on it all is today. Still debating to get the carbon pads campy makes for the new brakes or just get some nice Red TRP shimano compatible pad holders since I still have swissstops left over, 2 more pairs.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Sablotny said:


> I believe current Chorus and Record brifters are identical, and I mean identical, save for the logos. At least that's what Competitive Cyclist says. Of course, if you're a big Campy fan maybe its worth paying more for that Record logo.


The use of term "brifters" notwithstanding, isn't it the case that Chorus 11 shifters use bushings whereas Record and SR 11 shifters use bearings? To me, the Record 11 shifting feel is a tad smoother than Chorus 11's.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I have Record 11 2009 on one bike and Super Record 2011 on the other.

There is a weight difference, that actually I don't notice, the cassettes are indeed lighter because of the titanium, I did weight some parts ( FD RD brakes) and the weight difference was minimal I guess the big difference is on the Titanium vs Steel parts, but alas my SR crank is the Steel version.

It does have ceramic bearing but I also don't notice such a big difference.

The Record came on my C50 that I got on sale from a shop that was closing.

I did buy the SR11 for less than a R11 because I got it a new take-off from a bike shop, I think the buyer preferred Di2 and then the shop was selling this SR11 at a low price ( still expensive though)

IMHO Chorus is enough, get Record or SR only if you get it at a good price. SR11 looks nice though.


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## blockidog (Aug 22, 2013)

I am currently on the hunt to replace my '01 Campy Chorus and will stay with Campy and go 2013 or 2014 Chorus, Record or a combination of the two.

The posts I have seen have been helpful but are for '11 and older Campy.

Please advise if there are any changes to warrant a different build in '13 or '14 Campy to what has been mentioned here.

I appreciate any perspective.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Up until '13 I don't believe there is any difference. If the '14 catalog is out you could look there.

I'd stay with Chorus throughout as being the best value. I have a Chorus 11 bike and an Athena 11 also. Both good.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

I agree with Don Julio, our local Saint of Campagnolo! 

I switched from the 2001-2006 era 10-sp Chorus/Record to the newer 2009+ 11-sp Chorus/Record and I've been extremely happy. The new hood shape is really nice, shifting is great, and the same durability we are all used to. 

If you intend to do your own build, I advice being a bit careful with cable routing in order to avoid tight bends. You'll also need the newer 11-sp chain tool, I bought the official Campa tool which is pricey (although you can buy below MSRP from Europe) but it is well made and I use it to service 5 bikes anyway. It has essentially paid for itself many times over. You'll also need Torx tools. 

Ultra-Torque is really awesome: stiff, light, pretty, easy to service. You'll need the new BB cup tool and then a suitably long allen key for the center bolt.


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

You really don't need to go higher than record. I actually went from chorus to super record and theres really a small difference, weight and cult bearings, didn't buy the SR cassette. If I was trying to stay in a certain budget I would do chorus shifters, FD, chain and cassette and then Record Crankset. RD and brakes. I have full Chorus on TT bike and SR on my madone and with my SR I tried out the dual piviot rear vs my chorus mono pivot and I think it's a great upgrade for braking if you do a lot of fast down hills.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

I had been a user of Chorus exclusively since 1989. It worked well, and I figured the "upgrade" to Record was not really worth it. But I have to say that over the last few years, I have changed my strategy. Several factors make up my choices: If you shop carefully enough, you can find Record parts for not much more than Chorus. The resale for used Record parts (vs. Chorus) on ebay is such that you can recover the additional cost you paid out initially fairly easily. Chorus chain/cassette are still the best option for durability at not much of a weight difference. Finally, I think the only advantage of the Super Record group is the crankset with CULT bearings. 
So I go with Record groupo with SR crank and Chorus chain/cassette. Works for me.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Kerry Irons said:


> I have a Record drive train and use Veloce' cassettes.


I have a mix of Record and Super Record and use the Veloce cassettes. They work great and cheap.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Notvintage said:


> I have a mix of Record and Super Record and use the Veloce cassettes. They work great and cheap.


Props for frugality, but how do you get 11 speed Veloce cassettes for Super Record? If you actually want 11 cogs you're either using Chorus or a Shimano wheel and cassette.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

DrSmile said:


> Props for frugality, but how do you get 11 speed Veloce cassettes for Super Record? If you actually want 11 cogs you're either using Chorus or a Shimano wheel and cassette.


I'm running 10 speed. I have a Super Record 11 speed crank with Rotor rings. And I screwed up, it's Centaur cassettes I have. Still cheap.


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## blockidog (Aug 22, 2013)

Everyone, thank you for the perspective.

From all the comments I would conclude going Chorus for all bits but the brake calipers (Record) and maybe crank (SR) would be a great mix.

-j


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

blockidog said:


> Everyone, thank you for the perspective.
> 
> From all the comments I would conclude going Chorus for all bits but the brake calipers (Record) and maybe crank (SR) would be a great mix.
> 
> -j


Chorus brakes are also available in both differential and dual pivot flavors. There is a weight difference to Record, but no difference in actual braking whatsoever. Both types have their fans. It's a matter of personal preference. Record saves 21g. and costs $90 more at Ribble.

With SR cranks come ceramic bearings, a 84g weight saving, and an additional $385 load off the wallet compared to Chorus.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Just changed my 2009 SR right shifter body and rear derailleur for 2013 Record. The Campagnolo feel is back!
Fun fact: the only visible differences between the two RDs are the name on the outer plate and the main bolt.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

kbwh said:


> Just changed my 2009 SR right shifter body and rear derailleur for 2013 Record. The Campagnolo feel is back!
> Fun fact: the only visible differences between the two RDs are the name on the outer plate and the main bolt.


So did you have an early production 2009 shifter and it's always been a little soft, or was it due to wear?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

kbwh said:


> Just changed my 2009 SR right shifter body and rear derailleur for 2013 Record. The Campagnolo feel is back!
> Fun fact: the only visible differences between the two RDs are the name on the outer plate and the main bolt.


But SR is full carbon construction instead of having alloy knuckles and carbon outer linkage.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

It was an early '09 SR, soft with little pull in the parallelogram. And pretty lousy precision in the ergopower. 
Now it shifts like the 02 10sp Record on my wife's bike. 
Also noted that the 09 SR did 3 up 5 down whilst the 13 R does 4 up 4 down. 
Just to clarify: I was comparing the 09 SR RD with the 13 R. 13 SR is a whole lot compositier, haha!


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## blockidog (Aug 22, 2013)

So I've decided on going Campy compact on the new group. 

I have been using 172.5 53-39 // 12-25 10 speed Chorus.

I am 165#'s and do pretty fast group rides throughout the North Shore of Boston.

Any recommendations would be helpful. Choice are:

34-50, 52-36

and,

11-23, 11-25,
12-25, 12-27,
12-29-

Thank you.


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## primov8 (Dec 16, 2012)

bikerjulio said:


> Chorus brakes are also available in both differential and dual pivot flavors. There is a weight difference to Record, but no difference in actual braking whatsoever. Both types have their fans. It's a matter of personal preference. Record saves 21g. and costs $90 more at Ribble.


+1. I recently installed SR11-EPS on the De Rosa but stuck with Chorus 11 dual-pivot brakes. I've got a set of the SR dual-pivot brakes on the Ridley and definitely no difference in braking whatsoever, even with the same brand of pads on both brakesets.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

blockidog said:


> So I've decided on going Campy compact on the new group.
> 
> I have been using 172.5 53-39 // 12-25 10 speed Chorus.
> 
> ...



any hills for you? I went with 50/34 and 12/25...the ratios are great! very close so you will always have the perfect gear. I dont miss anything on the top end ever and i love it on the hills.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

I have super record EPS on my main bike and I am going to add chorus to my cx bike. originally I wanted RED but once I took out the demo with EPS it was a done deal!


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

When I switched from Shimano to Campy 2 1/2 years ago I went with Super Record 11. When I wore out my first chain in replaced it with Chorus. When I wore out my SR11 cassette I replaced it with Chorus. I found no difference in either. 

Then I built another bike and used the Chorus group set. No difference in performance or function. I've since tore down the first bike and used the Super record parts on my new BH GC Aero TT bike with the exception of the brake levers/shifters. 

Bottom line, if I was smart about the initial swap from Shimano I never would have bought the Super Record. I didn't need the "top" group then and if I didn't already own it, it wouldn't be on my BH. My opinion is the Chorus group set is just as good as the Super Record. The small weight difference isn't going to make any difference to me. That's my two cents.


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## Sighclone (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks to Kenrow for pointing me here! And just in time! I'm going going to sing with the choir, on my 2012 Pinarello Paris build! Might go with an Omni 11-28 cassette (a range I love on my Scott CR-1 Team / 105)...the Omni is 100 gm less than the lightest Campy, recovering a lot of the weight added by the Chorus. Yes, titanium is harder on chains...


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Titanium is softer than steel, so it's the chain that beats up the cogs. Ti cogs will wear out faster than steel cogs, chain will be unaffected.

Don't know anything about this "Omni" brand, but Campy cassettes are so well-matched and smooth shifting to a Campy drive train, it's not worth it for literally just a few grams. IMO, go with Chorus cassette. Some retailers already have the new Campy 11-27 cassette, if you want that wide range.


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## Sighclone (Mar 26, 2013)

Thank you re Omni. Here is a link/long review:Omni Racer 93 gram 10 speed cassette. - Weight Weenies = lasted 3K miles, probably low for a Chorus. Definitive and specific Vickers/Rockwell comparisons for this unknown Ti nitride vs. unknown steel alloy in Campy chains is not here to settle hardness issue, and hardness comparisons is another thread, I guess. A hundred grams is what, one cheeseburger? So, overall it seems like a tossup, and 11-27 would be very nice - I'm on a 10spd now with 11-28 so that extra ring is really an improvement...I may well stay with Campy...and whimper about the lost cog on the steep ones. Thanks again. Link to 2013 Campy parts catalog -- my, such badge engineering: http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/SPARES2013-PART_A-27-11-12.pdf


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## wtchoe (Nov 12, 2011)

I used to have a Cervelo S2 with Chorus, and currently own a Damocles with Record and Lynskey R340 with Super Record. The Record and SR bikes both shift and brake beautifully and I can't really tell a functional difference between the two. The CULT bearings do spin beautifully, but I only notice the difference on the workbench, never out on the road. The Chorus bike didn't shift as smoothly, but I strongly suspect that was more due to the internal routing on the S2 than anything. The braking was a little coarse though. I used Chorus cassettes for all the bikes.
So from a purely functional standpoint, Record and Super Record are probably identical. Any weight savings are greater at the wallet than on the bike. But SR is pretty.... Only makes sense if you're trying to build the "ultimate" or "dream" bike.
I'm going to build a Lynskey Helix Disc with SR soon and sell off the Damocles/Record in case anyone is interested.


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## mellowmiles (Jan 25, 2014)

*old thread revival*



wtchoe said:


> I used to have a Cervelo S2 with Chorus, and currently own a Damocles with Record and Lynskey R340 with Super Record. The Record and SR bikes both shift and brake beautifully and I can't really tell a functional difference between the two. The CULT bearings do spin beautifully, but I only notice the difference on the workbench, never out on the road. The Chorus bike didn't shift as smoothly, but I strongly suspect that was more due to the internal routing on the S2 than anything. The braking was a little coarse though. I used Chorus cassettes for all the bikes.
> So from a purely functional standpoint, Record and Super Record are probably identical. Any weight savings are greater at the wallet than on the bike. But SR is pretty.... Only makes sense if you're trying to build the "ultimate" or "dream" bike.
> I'm going to build a Lynskey Helix Disc with SR soon and sell off the Damocles/Record in case anyone is interested.


Hi guys, 
new to this site and seeking advice. I noted the hot debate about chorus vs R Vs SR has now lead me to get itchy feet for a groupset update!! I'm relatively new to cycling and newer to Campy to go easy.

So i've got a Ritchey logic which is fairly new and mated to a 2013 Athena carbon. In case one wondered i'm a fan of steel and not yet sure i can justify titanium prices yet and not really sold on carbon (not sure why... i like a bit of retro i guess) so stuck with what i know. I'm more of a sportive rider and no plans to do crits or races etc.
I noted a moderately used 2009/10 SR on sale for a similar ballpark figure to a new 2014 chorus (also on sale). 
my questions are 
1) would the connoisseurs here go for a new chorus or the used SR at similar price?
2) is it even worth the upgrade if not going for the SR??
3) is it worth upgrading now at all? is UT worth the extra?

I guess part of my reasoning is my winter hack is a 9 speed shimano and i looked round the garage and realised that i've now accumulated 4 wheelsets. I'm starting to think perhaps some consolidation of the hardware is in order??

many thanks for your input!!


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> my questions are
> 1) would the connoisseurs here go for a new chorus or the used SR at similar price?
> 2) is it even worth the upgrade if not going for the SR??
> 3) is it worth upgrading now at all? is UT worth the extra?


1. New Chorus over 2009/10 SR.
2. No. Athena is fine.
3. No. The UT advantage is in dissassembly/maintenance/swapping. There's really no functional riding advantage.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

I'm 100% in agreement with *bikerjulio*


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

+2. Bikerjulio is spot on.


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## wtchoe (Nov 12, 2011)

I also would go with 2014 Chorus over 2009 SR. Mostly to avoid the maintenance that is and soon will be required in maintaining the older "moderately used" gruppo.


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## mellowmiles (Jan 25, 2014)

thanks guys! prompt replies as well. I'll be sitting tight in that case.
surprised that people went for the younger chorus but if i need to update i'll bear that in mind.
have that lovely feeling like someone has put money in my bank account now!!
thanks again


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Best bang for buck Campag 11 is a mix of Chorus and Athena. Mechs & callipers from Athena and Chorus for the rest. That way you get all the benefits of Ultrashift & UT Cranks.


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## mellowmiles (Jan 25, 2014)

for the record this was the bullet i nearly bit...
campagnolo super record | eBay


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

mellowmiles said:


> surprised that people went for the younger chorus


No surprise. The shifter internals are the same for SR, Record and Chorus. It's what used to be called "badge engineering" at it's finest.

The only differences are the logos on the brake levers, and the faux "carbon" applique on the SR finger lever.

SR shifters are shown as 7 grams lighter than Chorus, so 3.5g each. Probably in the attaching clamp.

Campy have a long history of doing this kind of thing. Which is why you consistently see Chorus recommended as the best value Campy 11-spd groupset.


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## mellowmiles (Jan 25, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> No surprise. The shifter internals are the same for SR, Record and Chorus. It's what used to be called "badge engineering" at it's finest.
> 
> The only differences are the logos on the brake levers, and the faux "carbon" applique on the SR finger lever.
> 
> ...


Damn it! Wish the bike had come with Chorus and at least i wouldn't think the grass is greener! I'll have to ride the hell out of the Athena to get a reasonable excuse to upgrade.
Do people have 11s as their winter hack as well? I'm starting to panick slightly about the number of wheelsets in the garage is that normal?! Wife thinks i have a problem...


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

mellowmiles said:


> Damn it! Wish the bike had come with Chorus and at least i wouldn't think the grass is greener! I'll have to ride the hell out of the Athena to get a reasonable excuse to upgrade.
> Do people have 11s as their winter hack as well? I'm starting to panick slightly about the number of wheelsets in the garage is that normal?! Wife thinks i have a problem...


I use both Athena and Chorus 11-speeds and like both almost equally.

Right now I have 2 11-spd road bikes, 5 10-speed road bikes, a 10-speed cross bike, and a vintage 7-speed TT bike. And some spare wheels, and a couple of bare frames. Tell your wife that it's a harmless, healthy addiction.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

bikejulio (and any other campy pros out there) -
whats the best budget campy mix for CX bike? I dont want to go cheaper than athena. I only really use it on CX tracks and on towpath rides so I use about 4 gears. 10 speed is fine if its cheaper. I know I need the CX crank, should I go for athena front and rear derailers and chorus shifters? shifting more than one gear at a time would be a little better to me because i'm used to it, but no biggie. its a BB30 bike and while campy is coming out with some bb30 cranksets I dont think it includes the CX stuff. I dont ned brakes and i'm planning on stans ironhorse tubeless wheels as well.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

mellowmiles said:


> for the record this was the bullet i nearly bit...
> campagnolo super record | eBay


800 GBP asking for a 4yo SR group, which also means it could be the problematic 2009 version.

Since Ribble is currently offering 12% off, their price for a complete new and unworn Chorus group is 722 GBP.

The choice should be clear to anyone with half a brain.


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## mellowmiles (Jan 25, 2014)

I bow with respect!!! 
I aspire... 

I think i'll be checking back on this forum much more frequently!


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## mellowmiles (Jan 25, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> 800 GBP asking for a 4yo SR group, which also means it could be the problematic 2009 version.
> 
> Since Ribble is currently offering 12% off, their price for a complete new and unworn Chorus group is 722 GBP.
> 
> The choice should be clear to anyone with half a brain.


Indeed it should but sadly 3/4 of my brain is usually occupied with quite frankly less important things... But that's why i imagine these fora exist to learn from wiser heads lest one puts a foot (and not a cheap one at that) awry


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

Donn12 said:


> bikejulio (and any other campy pros out there) -
> whats the best budget campy mix for CX bike? I dont want to go cheaper than athena. I only really use it on CX tracks and on towpath rides so I use about 4 gears. 10 speed is fine if its cheaper. I know I need the CX crank, should I go for athena front and rear derailers and chorus shifters? shifting more than one gear at a time would be a little better to me because i'm used to it, but no biggie. its a BB30 bike and while campy is coming out with some bb30 cranksets I dont think it includes the CX stuff. I dont ned brakes and i'm planning on stans ironhorse tubeless wheels as well.


IF you are going 50/34 as opposed to 46/36, you aren't limited to a "CX" crank. There is a compact option across the board. 

Campy already makes an adapter cup for UT (ultra torque) to work with BB30. The soon to be released adapter cup will be for a Campy "over torque" which is essentially a BB386 crank. There's really no advantage to putting a wider crank on a BB30 frame, so the most cost-effective and rigid set up would be a native BB30 crank (if you don't mind the mismatched group).

If you go ten speed, for the most part Athena/Centaur/Veloce have the same internals... I don't consider one "cheaper" than another with a few exceptions: Athena has 11 speed indexed ergos, better chain rings (and skeleton brakes). Athena and Centaur have the more modern front-derailleur design with the z-shape arm and m-brace that the Veloce lacks. Otherwise, they are practically identical. Athena is really just the 11speed version of Centaur with a limited number of marginal improvements.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

bikerjulio said:


> 800 GBP asking for a 4yo SR group, which also means it could be the problematic 2009 version.


Out of curiosity and a bit off-topic, but, what's the "problematic" part with the 2009 SR? I've been riding one of these for four years, and never noticed anything problematic. It's been nothing short of perfect all this time.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Donn12 said:


> bikejulio (and any other campy pros out there) -
> whats the best budget campy mix for CX bike? I dont want to go cheaper than athena. I only really use it on CX tracks and on towpath rides so I use about 4 gears. 10 speed is fine if its cheaper. I know I need the CX crank, should I go for athena front and rear derailers and chorus shifters? shifting more than one gear at a time would be a little better to me because i'm used to it, but no biggie. its a BB30 bike and while campy is coming out with some bb30 cranksets I dont think it includes the CX stuff. I dont ned brakes and i'm planning on stans ironhorse tubeless wheels as well.


I think it all depends on what your budget is.

The CX crankset is a compact PT with either 46/26 or regular 50/34 chainrings. The only difference is the CX cups which have an extra seal. Looks to me like they only sell these as threaded cups, not BB30.

So, if you _really_ want Campy CX on a BB30 bike you'd have to convert it to threaded with a press-in threaded sleeve.

So also part of the answer is knowing just how wet and dirty the bike is going to get. 

If you're prepared to forgo the extra seal, then the simplest and cheapest solution is a 10-speed crank and Campy's press-in BB30 cups. I have several years on one bike with these and it's been absolutely fine.

Staying on this topic for a minute, a 10-speed crank will work just fine with an 11-speed chain. There are some good deals out there on NOS UT 10-speed cranks. And for me personally a UT crank is preferable. If you can't find one then, Veloce or Centaur would be the best if on a budget.

The decision on 10 vs. 11 speed is up to you. Obviously 10-speed is cheaper, especially cassettes and would seem to be enough for what you want to do.

In terms of absolute value for money it's Veloce in your case. The single-click upshifting has it's detractors, but speaking personally I think it works fine and might actually be simpler to use if riding on rough terrain.

The Chorus/Athena mix you speak of is a good choice for an 11-speed road bike, but for a limited use CX bike it might be a bit of overkill. It's entirely between you and your wallet.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Pirx said:


> Out of curiosity and a bit off-topic, but, what's the "problematic" part with the 2009 SR? I've been riding one of these for four years, and never noticed anything problematic. It's been nothing short of perfect all this time.


There was both a quality and a design issue with the early production "2009" Shifters, both 10 and 11-speed.

Campy made a quiet running change in about October 2009 which addressed the problems, and bought out a upgrade kit in early 2010 to convert the early shifters.

The quality issue was that there was a very tight clearance between the cable spool where the cable end sits, and the shifter body, such that there were complaints of erratic shifting if you had one where the cable end was hitting the inside of the housing.

Secondly the early detent disc and spring pack gave a very low shifting "feel". In the case of the shifters I had there was no feel at all. The late 2009 revision applied to the detent disk and cable spool which were redesigned to provide a better "click" and avoid the interference problem. The later spools are dark plastic which you can see by looking up into the shifter. The early ones were light grey.

I'm guessing that either you have a later production set, or that like some people you are OK with the very light action.

The internal springs and RD spring were revised one more time, for 2011 I think without looking it up, to again improve shifter "feel" and positivity.

So, I always tell people to avoid a 2009 shifter. It might be fine, it might not. There's no way to tell unless it's in your hands. Shifters and RD's from the past couple of years are best.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

Thank you bikerjulio - that is great information! Ideally I would like the 46/36 crankset with the extra seal as this is my bad weather, rain, snow tow path winter bike. can you tell me exactly what threaded sleeve i need? 
if i go 10sped cx crank with athena derailers front and rear can i even get athena or chorus shifters or does that push me back to 11 speed?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

The sleeve is this. It's the most solid solution.

FSA BB30 Adaptor, Bottom Brackets, BOTTOM BRACKETS

Perhaps there's a typo in your question since both current Athena and Chorus are 11-speed.

I'd turn it around and say that a current 10-speed FD and RD will work fine with 11-speed shifters if you change later. Both my 11-spd bikes have a lot of 10-spd bits.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

bikerjulio said:


> Secondly the early detent disc and spring pack gave a very low shifting "feel". In the case of the shifters I had there was no feel at all. The late 2009 revision applied to the detent disk and cable spool which were redesigned to provide a better "click" and avoid the interference problem. The later spools are dark plastic which you can see by looking up into the shifter. The early ones were light grey.


Hmm, let me check. I do have one of the very first groupsets that made it in the US, but the shifting feels perfectly fine, and is similar to a newer SR groupset I also have. It is possible that I have the newer version of the 09 set; I need to take a look at the color of the spool you mention, I don't remember off the top of my head. Thanks for the detailed explanation!


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

See this old thread. It's possible that either the 11-speeds were different from the start, or that they got the modification earlier than the 10-speeds. As you can see here it was an acknowledged problem that caused Campy to release an upgrade kit. Which I bought and installed.

There was recent mention in the VS forum also where some professionals hang out, and early 11-speeds were included as having problems.

How can I get more pronounced click on 09 Centaur shifter


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Here is the VS thread which included a pro or two discussing the same issue:

Rebuilding Campagnolo 11 shifters


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## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> ...Secondly the early detent disc and spring pack gave a very low shifting "feel". In the case of the shifters I had there was no feel at all. The late 2009 revision applied to the detent disk and cable spool which were redesigned to provide a better "click" and avoid the interference problem. The later spools are dark plastic which you can see by looking up into the shifter. The early ones were light grey....


Trying ID some used record 11 speed levers I picked up. This gray vs dark spool you speak of. If I have the levers off the bars and am looking at them from the back; is it the round-ish part I see below the mounting bracket that is held in place by a small allen head bolt/washer. It is the only part I can easily see that appears to be plastic the rest look to be some form of metal. Looking form the bottom of the lever up through the shift lever nothing looks to be plastic.

Thanks!


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Holding the lever upside down and peeling the cover back one can see the place where the cable threads in. And the thumb button all the way clicked. That is the plastic spool. This is how it looks out of the lever:










Also if you look at the VS link I just posted, the first post has pictures of a dissassembled early shifter with the light grey spool.

The shifter should also show pronounced clicks with both finger and thumb levers.

Before buying second hand levers or RD's, bear in mind that these were improved again in 2011, so it's worth checking the price of a new set, and keeping in mind that a new set includes new cables, normally a $40 item.


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## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks much, picture is truly worth a thousand words. I've been looking for manuals on line but did not find it. Your picture is exactly what I am looking at from behind and very dark/black, so I guess I am good on this set. 

I've had three versions of Record/chorus 10s on various bikes and the levers that have "BB" on the lever have a nice hard, obvious click to them...really like it. They came used. I have an entire 2008 10s group I bought new that has a softer feel. This off season I have been trying to round up the necessary parts to make all my bikes and the wife's 11s so I can easily swap wheels. I've had one 11s record bike for a couple of years but it is for sure 2009 group and never been 100% thrilled with the rear shifting. I'll have to get it a look to check for gray or black spool. Happy that these latest levers might have a better feel to them.

Any obvious tells for the RD?

Ribble + Sale + cables does make it compelling to buy new, but I have been patient and getting them at good prices and I have a bulk stockpile of cable/housing in various colors in the garage.

Thanks much!


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

rplace13 said:


> Thanks much, picture is truly worth a thousand words. I've been looking for manuals on line but did not find it. Your picture is exactly what I am looking at from behind and very dark/black, so I guess I am good on this set.
> 
> I've had three versions of Record/chorus 10s on various bikes and the levers that have "BB" on the lever have a nice hard, obvious click to them...really like it. They came used. I have an entire 2008 10s group I bought new that has a softer feel. This off season I have been trying to round up the necessary parts to make all my bikes and the wife's 11s so I can easily swap wheels. I've had one 11s record bike for a couple of years but it is for sure 2009 group and never been 100% thrilled with the rear shifting. I'll have to get it a look to check for gray or black spool. Happy that these latest levers might have a better feel to them.
> 
> ...


I have several sets of the first version 10-speed "BB System" shifters and they are the best of that series IMO.

Campy later softened the feel a little.

The shifters since 2009 have completely redesigned internals dropping the G springs on favor of a disc spring pack and a detent disc.

The later RD's have a stronger return spring. Not sure how to tell the difference visually.

Camp's tech docs show the internals when you go to the spares section. Also shown on that VS thread above.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

thanks for the help bikerjulio and others! for my birthday my wife surprised me with a carbon athena crank and chorus shifters. I am going to get athena FD with 35mm clamp and RD. I also now need a new set of wheels and Im leaning towards stans tubeless ironhorse. I am more confused than ever one what bottom bracket i need


For my Felt FX65x with BB30 what bottom bracket would I need for 

1 - the athena carbon 11speed PT crankset

2 - the campy cx PT crankset (if i returned the above for the 46/38 that i think i want)


are they the same?

also the bike has avid BB5 disc brakes and the Felt guy said to use the original brake housing or I would have a very soft brake lever....should I think about upgrading brakes since Im doing every thing else?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Donn12 said:


> thanks for the help bikerjulio and others! for my birthday my wife surprised me with a carbon athena crank and chorus shifters. I am going to get athena FD with 35mm clamp and RD. I also now need a new set of wheels and Im leaning towards stans tubeless ironhorse. I am more confused than ever one what bottom bracket i need
> 
> 
> For my Felt FX65x with BB30 what bottom bracket would I need for
> ...


There are a couple of primary approaches to the BB issue.

1. With a regular PT the simplest approach is to press in (dry) the Campy 42mm BB30 adapter cups. Campagnolo Power Torque Integrated Cups, Bottom Brackets, BOTTOM BRACKETS

2. I explained earlier what my understanding of the CX crankset is. I believe the only difference is in the extra seals offered in the CX parts, and I see Campy is claiming some difference in the chainrings too. The complication is that the PT CX cups only come in the threaded versions. Campagnolo Power Torque CX Outboard Cups, Bottom Brackets, BOTTOM BRACKETS So to use this solution (which is probably a more reliable one), is to convert the frame to be BSA threaded with the use of a pressed-in insert. The one commonly available seems to be by FSA. Wiggle | FSA BB30 Conversion Kit | Bottom Brackets

The number of solutions for BB30 to Shimano, or BB30 to SRAM GXP, are far greater. Even BB30 to Campy UT has some other solutions. When it comes to Campy PT, I believe the solutions are pretty much limited to the 2 above.

This issue is also complicated by the widespread confusion between PF30 and BB30. Although both use BB30 cranksets, they use different approaches to bearing installation in shells that are different diameters (42mm for BB30 vs 46mm for PF30). Campy's press-in cups for the 46mm PF30 standard appear to have a lot of problems reported, so if a user want to use a Campy crank of either flavor in a PF30 shell I'm recommending a solution which converts the BB to BSA followed by Campy threaded cups.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

re: brakes... 

Stopping power of the BB5 is sufficient but people complain about pad life. The BB7 is definitely a better caliper (larger pads, longer pad life). BB7 also allows pad adjustment of both pads using an adjusting wheel while the BB5 only has an adjustment wheel for the fixed pad (the moving pad is adjusted by cable tension). 

Personally, if I as building up a Campy bike with disc brakes, I'd pick up a set of TRP Spyres which come in two options... the more expensive Spyre sheds a little weight and has more carbon fiber (but also looks better imho, especially alongside a campy group). The Spyre, like the BB7 uses a larger pad (basically a standard size, in this case shared with Shimano Deore disc brakes). The Spyre also has the added benefit that both pads move instead of just one, which results in more even pad wear between the two.

TRP also makes a hybrid hydraulic/mechanical disc brake (Hy/Rd "high road") but this is, in real world terms, only beneficial if you are changing pads on a daily basis (such as in racing). Hydraulics take away the need to make pad adjustments as it will happen automatically. Personally, I'd rather make adjustments by hand and avoid the headaches of using a hydraulic setup. 

There is also the Hayes CX5 disc brake, but it looks to be a BB5 clone (Hayes/Avid are both SRAM) with a different jacket.

Shimano has some new road disc brake calipers, but they were recalled and I don't currently see them available anywhere.

I wouldn't rush to replace your brakes, but it wouldn't hurt to watch for deals (none at the moment, probably due to all the recalls across brands, at the moment there is a short supply of road disc brakes).

Regarding what the shop mechanic said, brake housing is brake housing in my opinion. Some people swear by "compressionless" cables while others maintain it's a marketing gimmick (it matters for indexed derailleurs more so than brakes). If in doubt, just spend the money on the higher end brake cables but I don't think it matters (and you can mostly just reuse what you already have, anyways).


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Donn12 said:


> I am going to get athena FD with 35mm clamp and RD.


Buy a braze on FD and a separate clamp, this way you will be able to use it on anything.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

mikerp said:


> Buy a braze on FD and a separate clamp, this way you will be able to use it on anything.


agreed.

I have (ahem) several bikes and like to be able to swap parts around sometimes to help while away the long winters here. Braze-on FD's with separate clamps are a much more flexible solution.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> agreed.
> 
> I have (ahem) several bikes and like to be able to swap parts around sometimes to help while away the long winters here. Braze-on FD's with separate clamps are a much more flexible solution.


It took me more than one bike to figure this one out. But I'm there now 

Just picked up a package from Ribble this AM (Chorus group less crank as I have a spare Record and my go with Power2max), this is for my new Century ride (Lynskey R230).


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