# Fake Dogmas will be harder to spot



## BunnV

Now that Keen has made the seat tube aero and added a braze on derailluer mount. 
How do these companies get away with blatant forgery?? Why doesn't Pinarello sue?
GreatKeen Bike Sport Equipment Co.,Ltd


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## mykol77

This sucks for real Dogma owners myself included. I'm hoping that the fake ones have horrible paint quality as a badge of shame. LOL!


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## merckxman

Pinarello is aware and is taking legal action. 

Having said that it remains to be seen how successful they will be.


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## mykol77

I'm kinda pissed, I payed a lot for my Dogma just to have someone make a knock-off of it.


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## spas

Wow - it looks like they have fake Bora Ultra Two's as well - how safe would you feel riding on those :blush2:


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## BunnV

spas said:


> Wow - it looks like they have fake Bora Ultra Two's as well - how safe would you feel riding on those :blush2:


Yeah! I forgot to mention those! What about the fake Most bars? I could never tell those from original.


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## louise

PinarelloChina.com | Buy Pinarello Carbon Bike Frame from China, OEM Carbon Bike Frame


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## vontress

I've never seen any kind of chinese fake that was the same as the original. It might be good enough for some, but it's not the real thing. They copy it because it's a fantastic product. People buy it because they are envious. Just be glad your riding a highly sought out bike that many wish they could have. None of these buyers chose this bike over the pinnarello. Schwinn should be upset, that's who's customer was stolen.


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## ParkCity

wow - just wow...


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## Frankie13

As long as I know my Prince and now my Dogma2 are the real deal, that's all what's important to me!


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## kyrider

*a fake is a fake*

If you pay attention to details you can tell very easily it is a fake, for example:
1) Chain stays are not the correct shape, these are straight but a read Dogma's have a break in them
2) The top tube doesn't have the same shape at head tube like a read Dogma, the dogma top tube has a pronounced rib that goes around the head tube
3) Down tube at the BB are has only one main rib whereas the Dogma frame has 3 ribs in that area
and so on... there are so many "little" details that gives it up as a fake and not read Dogma frame.


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## hambike

What immediately caught my eye on the Keen pictures are the 1) rear brake cable hole in the top tube that is lower down on the side than on my Dogma 60.1, and 2) the two screws holding the front derailleur braze-on versus the four "rivets" on the Dogma. 

There is absolutely no problem with the PinarelloChina.com site, however. One need not look at any of the pictures - just look at the specifications: 1) english BB, 2) standard 1-1/8 headset, 3) even-numbered sizing only, and my personal favorite, 4) Toray T700 carbon, which makes for a fine badminton racket. 

Really no excuse for anyone to get fooled by these two Pinarello cheats.


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## savechief

mykol77 said:


> I'm kinda pissed, I payed a lot for my Dogma just to have someone make a knock-off of it.


No reason to get pissed off if you bought your real Dogma for the performance rather than the prestige and "look at me" factor.


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## LouisVuitton

I think its perfectly fine to have bought the Dogma for its looks and prestige. It is a work of fine art as well as a performance machine. I am pissed also that fakes exist.


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## config

Why get pissed if you bought a real one? People purchase high-end brand names for a reason (myself included) while there are literally thousands of fakes out there that can be had for much less. I understand being pissed if you paid full price and you got a fake or replica. The people who bought fakes know they have fakes.

If you own the real deal, well you should feel good about yourself because you obviously thought it was worth what you paid for. If not, you wouldn't have bought it in the first place. I'm not patronizing fakes I've just accepted that they are a fact of economics. In fact I've read stats that say it actually helps the original company gain advertising. Like it or not, it's wrong but it's not going to go away soon when we have other things more important to deal with and combat like world peace and hunger ;-)


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## BunnV

config said:


> The people who bought fakes know they have fakes.


Not necessarily. There have been some fakes on eBay that were not disclosed as fake. It’s possible that people have unwittingly bought fakes from unscrupulous sellers. I saw a fake on eBay sell for almost $1600. 
Even the counterfeiters don’t ask that much. They list them for *“Frame/fork totally price : 828$ USD Free Shipping to Global.” *It’s crazy!
I can't believe how brazen they are. They have a website with a phone number and address- meanwhile they list their product as a* “2012 Pinarello Dogma 2 Carbon Road Bike Frame & Fork” * WTF????


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## elviento

I will be utterly frank to everyone here. Most of Pinarello buyers do it for the performance, the looks, and the prestige, AND THAT IS OKAY!!! No need to get too idealistic about it. Fakes are ripoffs, there is no changing that. Some people who want to pay 15% of the price for 90% of the looks and the prestige and 20% of the performance, will always entice these guys to keep knocking off the Dogma 2s, the Dogma 3s. 

Hambike's analysis of the distinctions will also serve to help Keen and Yong refine their next gen fakes. In addition, many factories are faking them. Pinarello is the LV of the bike industry right now. The solution? Should be a combination of law and consumer's own behavior. I saw on WW the other day some guy tauting his new Fakgma and everyone jumps to compliment how nice looking it is. Even worse, we have people on forums saying everyone else with a real Dog is f'ing stupid and overpaid $4K (or 3K in the case BunnV spotted).


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## savechief

elviento said:


> 90% of the looks and the prestige and 20% of the performance


I honestly would be very curious to read a real-world report from somebody that has ridden both a fake Dogma and a real one. Not claiming the performance is 100% of the real deal, but I doubt it's as low as 20%, either.


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## BunnV

savechief said:


> I honestly would be very curious to read a real-world report from somebody that has ridden both a fake Dogma and a real one. Not claiming the performance is 100% of the real deal, but I doubt it's as low as 20%, either.


Here is just such a guy.....

Picture 2 shows the fake in the background, real in the foreground. He actually has Lightweights on the fake!


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## mykol77

savechief said:


> No reason to get pissed off if you bought your real Dogma for the performance rather than the prestige and "look at me" factor.


I perfectly understand your point but I also understand that typical guys like me wouldn't ever
get all the performance out of a frame like a Dogma. I bought the Dogma because I wanted to
experience "the best" before I get too old to appreciate that fact and also because I wanted to reward myself. I don't know whether it's a valid point or not, but to me these fakes somewhat takes away from the whole "rewarding myself" point.


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## savechief

mykol77 said:


> I perfectly understand your point but I also understand that typical guys like me wouldn't ever
> get all the performance out of a frame like a Dogma. I bought the Dogma because I wanted to
> experience "the best" before I get too old to appreciate that fact and also because I wanted to reward myself. I don't know whether it's a valid point or not, but to me these fakes somewhat takes away from the whole "rewarding myself" point.


If you wanted to reward yourself with "the best", and feel that a real Pinarello meets this criteria, then your money has been well spent. 

In my mind, there are two camps of consumers that should be upset about the existence of OEM/fake Pinarellos:

1) Those that bought a Pinarello for the look and to show off. Most of the people they are trying to impress probably couldn't tell a real from a fake, so their money was not well spent. 

2) Those that bought their Pinarello for the performance, but are concerned that the fakes aren't too far off in terms of performance and their skill/ability/fitness wouldn't allow them to discern the differences between the real and the fake in a blind ride (don't try this at home...far too dangerous). 

Both of these groups of people wonder if maybe...just maybe...they would have satisfied their goals by saving several thousand dollars and picking up a fake instead. Just one guy's opinion.


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## dharrison

kyrider said:


> If you pay attention to details you can tell very easily it is a fake, for example:
> 1) Chain stays are not the correct shape, these are straight but a read Dogma's have a break in them
> 2) The top tube doesn't have the same shape at head tube like a read Dogma, the dogma top tube has a pronounced rib that goes around the head tube
> 3) Down tube at the BB are has only one main rib whereas the Dogma frame has 3 ribs in that area
> and so on... there are so many "little" details that gives it up as a fake and not read Dogma frame.


I think someone played a joke on you and switched your "D" and "L" keys. :blush2:


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## AnthonyL88

I bought a Dogma 2 because it's one of the best frame out there. Also, people think just because you bought such an expensive frame, you must be rich. Not true, it will take a while to save up my money for the frame, but if I want it, this is what I must do. I would never buy any fake products. If I can't afford something, I just won't buy it. I will never buy a fake product and try to hack it off as the real thing. CLASSLESS!!

Why do people buy fake bike frames? Some people might say, well I'm not rich like some people and I can't afford to buy an Authentic Dogma 2 frame. Well, that's fine, but why buy a fake Dogma 2 frame? Because they want to give the impression the fake Dogma 2 frame is real? Couldn't the person use the money on an Authentic frame from many great bike companies, who makes nice frames at a good price.

Whenever you're the best, people will always try to make fake products. Rolex, Louis Vuitton, Prada, Pinarello, Colnago etc.


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## mykol77

AnthonyL88 said:


> I bought a Dogma 2 because it's one of the best frame out there. Also, people think just because you bought such an expensive frame, you must be rich. Not true, it will take a while to save up my money for the frame, but if I want it, this is what I must do. I would never buy any fake products. If I can't afford something, I just won't buy it. I will never buy a fake product and try to hack it off as the real thing. CLASSLESS!!
> 
> Why do people buy fake bike frames? Some people might say, well I'm not rich like some people and I can't afford to buy an Authentic Dogma 2 frame. Well, that's fine, but why buy a fake Dogma 2 frame? Because they want to give the impression the fake Dogma 2 frame is real? Couldn't the person use the money on an Authentic frame from many great bike companies, who makes nice frames at a good price.
> 
> Whenever you're the best, people will always try to make fake products. Rolex, Louis Vuitton, Prada, Pinarello, Colnago etc.


well said, my thoughts exactly.


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## BunnV

So, I saw another Chinarello sell for almost $2000 on eBay and I noticed that the seller used the term "OEM" (original equipment manufacturer) in his title, along with "Pinarello Dogma 60.1" I think adding "OEM" is the sellers sneaky way of disclosing that it is a fake without saying it's a fake. OEM's make products for many different brands. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, it still doesn't make the seller any less of a scum bag.


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## vladvm

main reason is 99% of general public won't be able to tell or even care about the difference. Personally I can't tell, especially when the bike is moving. besides those who own the fake are 100% satisfied with their purchase knowingly paying a measly $500 for fake carbon frame. 

Do you know how BORED a regular person would be if you point out the difference between Dogma and Prince/Paris, yet along the difference between the fake and the real Dogma? Majority of people just care about aesthetics, a guy here has a real Rolex diver's watch and a fake one. He wears the real one on special occations and the fake one on a daily basis. He's happy with both, does not worry about ruining the fake one and he's proud to wear the real deal when it counts.

ride the bike, don't regret/get pissed. just be happy if you have the real deal. you are not missing anything on the fakes. I'd be more worried not to get a chain suck or crash on the real Pinarello's, so maybe get a fake ones as a beater?


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## T-Dog

You can copy design but you cant copy quality.

The reason the fakes appear is becuase the orginals are just way overpriced.


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## RC28

vladvm said:


> you are not missing anything on the fakes. I'd be more worried not to get a chain suck or crash on the real Pinarello's, s*o maybe get a fake ones as a beater*?


Like this guy??


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## enzo269

BunnV said:


> So, I saw another Chinarello sell for almost $2000 on eBay and I noticed that the seller used the term "OEM" (original equipment manufacturer) in his title, along with "Pinarello Dogma 60.1" I think adding "OEM" is the sellers sneaky way of disclosing that it is a fake without saying it's a fake. OEM's make products for many different brands. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, it still doesn't make the seller any less of a scum bag.


Agreed! And Ebay should be held accountable as well for letting this go on on their auctions.. They do pull some auctions but many go through until the end and buyers are getting ripped off thinking they have bought the real deal..


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## MRFIXALL4

Pinarrello quality is a myth and warranty is a joke. My close friend had two of the same model and year because the first frame broke around the seat tube exactly after the 2 year warranty period. He liked the model so well that he bought another one. And guess what happened. One month after the warranty that frame broke around the seat tube exactly the same. He had all his paperwork and he even still had the first frame and he went to the dealer. Even the dealer agreed that Pinarello should accept some responsiblity but Nope. If you actually believe that you are getting more because you are paying more you are a fool. And as for Chinese quality, I can argue that one all day because I have a Chinese frame and I've beat the crap out of it for a year now. It's holding up just fine. As for Chinese warranty, who cares, I can buy alot of frames and still not touch the price of one frame from Pinarello.


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## RichardL

MRFIXALL4 said:


> Pinarrello quality is a myth and warranty is a joke. My close friend had two of the same model and year because the first frame broke around the seat tube exactly after the 2 year warranty period. He liked the model so well that he bought another one. And guess what happened. One month after the warranty that frame broke around the seat tube exactly the same. He had all his paperwork and he even still had the first frame and he went to the dealer. Even the dealer agreed that Pinarello should accept some responsiblity but Nope. If you actually believe that you are getting more because you are paying more you are a fool. And as for Chinese quality, I can argue that one all day because I have a Chinese frame and I've beat the crap out of it for a year now. It's holding up just fine. As for Chinese warranty, who cares, I can buy alot of frames and still not touch the price of one frame from Pinarello.


Well good luck to you (and your Chinese frame!) but I don't understand why you feel obliged to come onto this forum and moan about Pinarellos despite the fact that you don't own one! There seems to be a "reverse snobbery" from people who buy cheap frames and then feel that everybody else is obliged to as well! What people forget is that there is also real pleasure to be gained from just owning a nice bike in the same way as owning a piece of art or a nice car!


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## RJP Diver

AnthonyL88 said:


> Whenever you're [snip] the best [/snip] a popular, high-priced brand people will always try to make fake products. Rolex, Louis Vuitton, Prada, Pinarello, Colnago etc.


Fixed it for you

Rolex? Best? [giggle]


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## MRFIXALL4

My post was in response to T-Dog saying that you can copy design but you don't get the quality. I wonder who has done any testing to back that up. Lets see the proof. And so you understand why I moan it's because of the price. I just can't imagine what idiot thinks a bicycle can be worth $16,500 unless it's trimmings are 24kt gold. And as for the Dogma there's nothing there that makes this bike stand out from any other machine. It's not like a sports car either, it won't help you get noticed by any hot girls at a club ride. So what's the attraction that would make someone spend that much money?


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## RichardL

MRFIXALL4 said:


> And as for the Dogma there's nothing there that makes this bike stand out from any other machine.


Now that's just nonsense - whether you love or hate the Dogma (and I can understand why people might hate it!) there is no way you could say that it doesn't stand out!


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## antihero77

MRFIXALL4 said:


> My post was in response to T-Dog saying that you can copy design but you don't get the quality. I wonder who has done any testing to back that up. Lets see the proof. And so you understand why I moan it's because of the price. I just can't imagine what idiot thinks a bicycle can be worth $16,500 unless it's trimmings are 24kt gold. And as for the Dogma there's nothing there that makes this bike stand out from any other machine. It's not like a sports car either, it won't help you get noticed by any hot girls at a club ride. So what's the attraction that would make someone spend that much money?


With that attitude it clearly shows you drive a honda and snub your nose to those who drive ferraris. Get on a real pin and understand why people pay for the real deal.


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## Tri Slow Poke

vontress said:


> I've never seen any kind of chinese fake that was the same as the original. It might be good enough for some, but it's not the real thing. They copy it because it's a fantastic product. People buy it because they are envious. Just be glad your riding a highly sought out bike that many wish they could have. None of these buyers chose this bike over the pinnarello. Schwinn should be upset, that's who's customer was stolen.


I also think the fakes affect those wanting to sell their legit Pinarellos. I'm a big fan of buying used bikes, but I would only buy a Pinarello from an authorized retailer. It would be more expensive, but at least I know it was legit.


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## MRFIXALL4

If I were to go with the real deal it would be Colnago. At least they stand behind their product. More history and fame. And their bikes don't resemble crooked sticks.


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## revolator

antihero77 said:


> With that attitude it clearly shows you drive a honda and snub your nose to those who drive ferraris. Get on a real pin and understand why people pay for the real deal.


HEY, HEY! What's wrong with a Honda??? (not that I drive one of course  )


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## AnthonyL88

There's nothing wrong with driving a Honda, I wouldn't mind driving a NSX =). 

There are many beautiful frames to choose from, it's just which frame do you like better? Colnago, Pinarello, Wilier, Time and Look etc.

I almost bought the Colnago C59 frame, but decided on the Pinarello Dogma 2 di2 frame.


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## RichardL

revolator said:


> HEY, HEY! What's wrong with a Honda??? (not that I drive one of course  )


Nothing wrong with my S2000 or my FP5 (especially since I put a complete new 11 speed Campag groupset on it this week!)


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## antihero77

There is nothing wrong with driving a Honda. I just don't c what the point is going on a pinarello discussion to bash the bike.


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## zacolnago

This is what happens when you sell your soul for profits and move your framebuilding offshore. Pinarello has no one to blame but themselves for this mess. Their designs are their soul, their intelectual capital, yet for a quick buck they're prepared to hand these over to a bunch of foreigners and turn their IP into cookie cutters for everyone else to rip off.


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## AnthonyL88

zacolnago said:


> This is what happens when you sell your soul for profits and move your framebuilding offshore. Pinarello has no one to blame but themselves for this mess. Their designs are their soul, their intelectual capital, yet for a quick buck they're prepared to hand these over to a bunch of foreigners and turn their IP into cookie cutters for everyone else to rip off.


Pinarello Dogma frames are made in Italy. Other Pinarello frames are made in Taiwan, just like majority of the bike companies. A lot of stuff which aren't made in China are copy by the Chinese.


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## mykol77

AnthonyL88 said:


> Pinarello Dogma frames are made in Italy. Other Pinarello frames are made in Taiwan, just like majority of the bike companies. A lot of stuff which aren't made in China are copy by the Chinese.


I thought that was the case that Dogma frames are built in Italy but somewhere I read that now all frames are made in Taiwan but the Dogmas are painted in Italy. That's why Pinarello can get away with the "made in Italy" stamp because according to EU rules if a certain amount of work is done in a particular country it can be labeled as such, even if it wasn't
entirely made in that particular country (Italy in this case).


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## PlatyPius

savechief said:


> If you wanted to reward yourself with "the best", and feel that a real Pinarello meets this criteria, then your money has been well spent.
> 
> In my mind, there are two camps of consumers that should be upset about the existence of OEM/fake Pinarellos:
> 
> 1) Those that bought a Pinarello for the look and to show off. Most of the people they are trying to impress probably couldn't tell a real from a fake, so their money was not well spent.
> 
> 2) Those that bought their Pinarello for the performance, but are concerned that the fakes aren't too far off in terms of performance and their skill/ability/fitness wouldn't allow them to discern the differences between the real and the fake in a blind ride (don't try this at home...far too dangerous).
> 
> Both of these groups of people wonder if maybe...just maybe...they would have satisfied their goals by saving several thousand dollars and picking up a fake instead. Just one guy's opinion.



You forgot
3) Those who don't own a Pinarello, but are sickened by the existence of fake Pinarellos and the people who buy them. Those who despise theft and counterfeiting. And those who detest people who want the look of something good and real but think they should be able to get it for next to nothing, so they buy this crap.


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## mykol77

PlatyPius said:


> You forgot
> 3) Those who don't own a Pinarello, but are sickened by the existence of fake Pinarellos and the people who buy them. Those who despise theft and counterfeiting. And those who detest people who want the look of something good and real but think they should be able to get it for next to nothing, so they buy this crap.


Very well said sir. I just had a discussion with a couple of my ride buddies who do not understand the concept of why I don't patronize FAKE goods. What you said above succinctly captures my philosophy.


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## Cinelli 82220

AnthonyL88 said:


> Pinarello Dogma frames are made in Italy.


Bare carbon Dogma frames are made in Taiwan, this is well known and acknowledged by Pinarello themselves.

A certain amount of value is added to the frame in Italy, and it qualifies as "Made in Italy" under EU rules.


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## AnthonyL88

mykol77 said:


> I thought that was the case that Dogma frames are built in Italy but somewhere I read that now all frames are made in Taiwan but the Dogmas are painted in Italy. That's why Pinarello can get away with the "made in Italy" stamp because according to EU rules if a certain amount of work is done in a particular country it can be labeled as such, even if it wasn't
> entirely made in that particular country (Italy in this case).


I sent Pinarello in Italy an email and they said the Dogma frame is Made in Italy (Not just painted in Italy). I asked the owner of Wrench Science where is the Dogma frame being made, he told me the Dogma frame is 100% made in Italy. I bought my Dogma 2 frame from Wrench Science.


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## shoegazer

AnthonyL88 said:


> I sent Pinarello in Italy an email and they said the Dogma frame is Made in Italy (Not just painted in Italy). I asked the owner of Wrench Science where is the Dogma frame being made, he told me the Dogma frame is 100% made in Italy. I bought my Dogma 2 frame from Wrench Science.


That's my understanding of the 2011 Kobh as well.


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## BunnV

AnthonyL88, Will you post that e mail?


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## AnthonyL88

BunnV said:


> AnthonyL88, Will you post that e mail?


I will see if I still got it, but I doubt it!! I can just email Pinarello again and wait for their email again.


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## merckxman

This is pretty clear:
ITALIAN CYCLING JOURNAL: Pinarello Factory Tour, 2009

and to add about "Made in Italy" it's as others have said. The EU permits products made elsewhere to be brought in, have some x amount of work done to them, and then they can be labeled as being made in Italy for example.


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## RC28

AnthonyL88 said:


> Pinarello Dogma frames are made in Italy. Other Pinarello frames are made in Taiwan, just like majority of the bike companies. A lot of stuff which aren't made in China are copy by the Chinese.



Oh no they are not!

Built in Taiwan and finished/painted in Italy. That's how they get around placing the Made in Italy sticker.


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## razorz

What a joke.. fake swiss watches I can understand, but replica bike frames? C'mon lol

Though it would be freaking AWESOME to be on a club ride with someone on a fake Pinarello and have the frame crack on him.


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## RC28

razorz said:


> What a joke.. fake swiss watches I can understand, but replica bike frames? C'mon lol
> 
> Though it would be freaking AWESOME to be on a club ride with someone on a fake Pinarello and have the frame crack on him.



Or what is even more awesome, be on a club ride with a REAL Pinarello (or Cervelo, or Trek, or Specialized, for that matter)and have THAT crack on him. ;-)

True story. Happened in one of our local rides .


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## Kilo7

I really cannot believe i am about to post in this section, I read the real Dogma supporters and the supporters of the fake one's. All I have to say is wow..As an ex pro athlete(13 years) I got into cycling to save my knees. and fell in love with it. started with a cycle cross, just moved up to a road bike, with my eyes on a 62cm Pinarello, because it actually fits me. I just have to make a few points. In my years of playing sports here and in Europe, I have never ran across the arrogance, self entitlement of cyclist. I have a friend that owns a team in Italy and he says the same. So what's my point. Its hard to listen to a Pinarello owner that has turned there noses up to me until they knew what I did, because my previous cycle cross wasn't up to their (elite) standards. maybe the focus should be on furthering cycling with a positive attitude that doesn't involve self righteousness, arrogance and and posturing, then you might have more supporter of your argument in your corner. I would rather ride with a guy on a fake Pinarello, who was a cool person to ride with, than one that postures at every cafe shop, waiting to look up and down every bike that passes. Maybe that the real reason people will buy a fake, Pinarello, Rolex, etc. Many people just want to just fit in,so the society of social consciousnesses is misplaced. Would a Pinarello owned call a riding buddy that has a $900 road bike..you tell me? But from the intense debates of fundamentalism I think not, I loved to be wrong. Geez and to hope someone bike frame cracks to prove a point..wow


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## robdamanii

Kilo7 said:


> I really cannot believe i am about to post in this section, I read the real Dogma supporters and the supporters of the fake one's. All I have to say is wow..As an ex pro athlete(13 years) I got into cycling to save my knees. and fell in love with it. started with a cycle cross, just moved up to a road bike, with my eyes on a 62cm Pinarello, because it actually fits me. I just have to make a few points. In my years of playing sports here and in Europe, I have never ran across the arrogance, self entitlement of cyclist. I have a friend that owns a team in Italy and he says the same. So what's my point. Its hard to listen to a Pinarello owner that has turned there noses up to me until they knew what I did, because my previous cycle cross wasn't up to their (elite) standards. maybe the focus should be on furthering cycling with a positive attitude that doesn't involve self righteousness, arrogance and and posturing, then you might have more supporter of your argument in your corner. I would rather ride with a guy on a fake Pinarello, who was a cool person to ride with, than one that postures at every cafe shop, waiting to look up and down every bike that passes. Maybe that the real reason people will buy a fake, Pinarello, Rolex, etc. Many people just want to just fit in,so the society of social consciousnesses is misplaced. Would a Pinarello owned call a riding buddy that has a $900 road bike..you tell me? But from the intense debates of fundamentalism I think not, I loved to be wrong. Geez and to hope someone bike frame cracks to prove a point..wow


Dear god man. Grammar, punctuation, proper use of english.

I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're saying cyclists are dicks.

Only the ones who buy counterfeits.


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## PlatyPius

Kilo7 said:


> I really cannot believe i am about to post in this section, I read the real Dogma supporters and the supporters of the fake one's. All I have to say is wow..As an ex pro athlete(13 years) I got into cycling to save my knees. and fell in love with it. started with a cycle cross, just moved up to a road bike, with my eyes on a 62cm Pinarello, because it actually fits me. I just have to make a few points. In my years of playing sports here and in Europe, I have never ran across the arrogance, self entitlement of cyclist. I have a friend that owns a team in Italy and he says the same. So what's my point. Its hard to listen to a Pinarello owner that has turned there noses up to me until they knew what I did, because my previous cycle cross wasn't up to their (elite) standards. maybe the focus should be on furthering cycling with a positive attitude that doesn't involve self righteousness, arrogance and and posturing, then you might have more supporter of your argument in your corner. I would rather ride with a guy on a fake Pinarello, who was a cool person to ride with, than one that postures at every cafe shop, waiting to look up and down every bike that passes. Maybe that the real reason people will buy a fake, Pinarello, Rolex, etc. Many people just want to just fit in,so the society of social consciousnesses is misplaced. Would a Pinarello owned call a riding buddy that has a $900 road bike..you tell me? But from the intense debates of fundamentalism I think not, I loved to be wrong. Geez and to hope someone bike frame cracks to prove a point..wow


I don't know what kind of people you hang out with, but I've never met these mythical snobby roadies who look down on people with $900 bikes.

Now, people who ride counterfeit bikes or wear counterfeit Rolex watches....they *deserve* to be looked down upon. They're the ones who are trying to look a part that they can't afford. I can't afford a Pinarello. I sure as hell ain't gonna go buy a fake one so that people will think I'm wealthy/a racer/cooler than sweet baby jesus with a snowcone.

People who knowingly buy counterfeits lead to the breakdown of society, global warming, and Methodists. It's just wrong.


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## razorz

In response to the 3 page essay.

If you can't afford the real thing buy a brand name bike you CAN afford and don't be a fake your whole life. If your buddies think you suck because you can only afford a $1000 bike you need new buddies.


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## Kilo7

First of all, never said they were my friends, secondly look up zipcode 94920 and you tell me I what I can afford. I often ride through marin county , the points wasn't about counterfeit bikes but us as riders, you would be naive to believe bike snobs don't exist, even in an open forum I cannot express my views....proves my Point. By The way i dont buy fake, not to prove a point just my preference, and will not Judge others


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## BunnV

robdamanii said:


> Dear god man. Grammar, punctuation, proper use of english.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're saying cyclists are dicks.
> 
> Only the ones who buy counterfeits.



LOL! 

Exactly! 

+1


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## AnthonyL88

Kilo7 said:


> I really cannot believe i am about to post in this section, I read the real Dogma supporters and the supporters of the fake one's. All I have to say is wow..As an ex pro athlete(13 years) I got into cycling to save my knees. and fell in love with it. started with a cycle cross, just moved up to a road bike, with my eyes on a 62cm Pinarello, because it actually fits me. I just have to make a few points. In my years of playing sports here and in Europe, I have never ran across the arrogance, self entitlement of cyclist. I have a friend that owns a team in Italy and he says the same. So what's my point. Its hard to listen to a Pinarello owner that has turned there noses up to me until they knew what I did, because my previous cycle cross wasn't up to their (elite) standards. maybe the focus should be on furthering cycling with a positive attitude that doesn't involve self righteousness, arrogance and and posturing, then you might have more supporter of your argument in your corner. I would rather ride with a guy on a fake Pinarello, who was a cool person to ride with, than one that postures at every cafe shop, waiting to look up and down every bike that passes. Maybe that the real reason people will buy a fake, Pinarello, Rolex, etc. Many people just want to just fit in,so the society of social consciousnesses is misplaced. Would a Pinarello owned call a riding buddy that has a $900 road bike..you tell me? But from the intense debates of fundamentalism I think not, I loved to be wrong. Geez and to hope someone bike frame cracks to prove a point..wow


I really don't care what bike you're riding and you can always ride with me. But why buy a fake frame or bike, when you can buy the real thing from many amazing bike brands? Instead of buying a fake Pinarello frame for $1000-$1500, u can buy an authentic Cannondale CAAD10 bike or something else. What's the point of buying a fake frame or bike? I'm just a hard working person who saved up to buy the Pinarello bike.


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## config

Kilo7 said:


> First of all, never said they were my friends, secondly look up zipcode 94920 and you tell me I what I can afford. I often ride through marin county , the points wasn't about counterfeit bikes but us as riders, you would be naive to believe bike snobs don't exist, even in an open forum I cannot express my views....proves my Point. By The way i dont buy fake, not to prove a point just my preference, and will not Judge others


Do bike snobs really exist? No way... ...oh wait a second, this is the Pinarello forum. Happy New Year to ALL bicycle riders!


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## Kilo7

I would not have a problem riding with you, that's the one thing about cycling i love, going for a ride and meeting up with people you have never met and exploring new routes and developing new friendships


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## Kilo7

hey AnthonyL88, do you live in Marin?


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## Kilo7

lol...I played NBA, if you said some players where arrogant, I would have to agree, doesn't mean all are, but it doesn't take a majority to make a case... well its the same for me with cycling


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## Kilo7

your actually worried about my grammar, did you understand my point. I was on my android using swype. Mistakes happen. Another point of arrogance and elitism. How many Americans have gone to Europe with improper grammar and expect Europeans to figure it out,.... Gimme a break....I lived in Italy, Spain , France , Holland and Japan.


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## PlatyPius

Kilo7 said:


> your actually worried about my grammar, did you understand my point. I was on my android using swype. Mistakes happen. Another point of arrogance and elitism. How many Americans have gone to Europe with improper grammar and expect Europeans to figure it out,.... Gimme a break....I lived in Italy, Spain , France , Holland and Japan.


The only arrogance and elitism I'm seeing is from you....


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## robdamanii

Kilo7 said:


> your actually worried about my grammar, did you understand my point. I was on my android using swype. Mistakes happen. Another point of arrogance and elitism. How many Americans have gone to Europe with improper grammar and expect Europeans to figure it out,.... Gimme a break....I lived in Italy, Spain , France , Holland and Japan.


You're right. If you showed up to a ride being a sanctimonious ass, I would snub you and pull out the "elitist" routine. I don't care who you were or what you did, when you start whining about snobs and elitists then you're someone I wish to avoid.


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## Cinelli 82220

I have a couple of pricey bikes. But I also have a couple of cheap ones.

Being a snob, I look down my nose at myself.


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## PlatyPius

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I have a couple of pricey bikes. But I also have a couple of cheap ones.
> 
> Being a snob, I look down my nose at myself.


Ditto. I have a Cyfac Vintage Rando w/Athena 11, but was all excited about getting a 2011 Redline Conquest Sport (Shimano 2300). I try not to think about it, as I might disappear in a puff of elitism...


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## Cinelli 82220

*Pot>Kettle>etc...*



Kilo7 said:


> I would rather ride with a guy on a fake Pinarello, who was a cool person to ride with, than one that postures at every cafe shop, waiting to look up and down every bike that passes.


Don't tell me someone who has FAKE decals on a FAKE bike isn't posturing!


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## PlatyPius

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Don't tell me someone who has FAKE decals on a FAKE bike isn't posturing!


Or someone who posts their zip code to demonstrate their ability to buy any bike they want. Look at me! Where I live defines me!


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## Kilo7

PlatyPius said:


> Ditto. I have a Cyfac Vintage Rando w/Athena 11, but was all excited about getting a 2011 Redline Conquest Sport (Shimano 2300). I try not to think about it, as I might disappear in a puff of elitism...



lol...nice one..someone suggested a cyfac for my next bike. I said at 6'6" 250lb I looked like an elephant escaping from the zoo..nice looking bikes though, I just haven't gotten used to the steel frame look,


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## Kilo7

robdamanii said:


> You're right. If you showed up to a ride being a sanctimonious ass, I would snub you and pull out the "elitist" routine. I don't care who you were or what you did, when you start whining about snobs and elitists then you're someone I wish to avoid.


actually I don't really say a lot when I ride, but I understand if you would want to avoid me..lol..no worries. I have met numerous friends from riding, from helping out those on the road when they have a flat, help with directions. Funny thing is, I never attacked anyone specifically here just made in observation. I'll remember next time when there is a topic to not have a different point of view and just go along with the conversation and play it safe so everyone feels good. Once again I never said i would buy a fake, just that there's a lot of energy discussing what kind of people buy fakes and how we judge them, not looking for people to agree with me, just making an observation. So you guys win, I lost the conversation.


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## Kilo7

Oh and by the way...HAPPY NEW YEAR, hope you had a great night, as for the previous grammar. I was on my android with one hand, beer/champagne in the other and keeping a conversation going with my wife. Have a safe 2012!!!


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## AnthonyL88

Kilo7 said:


> hey AnthonyL88, do you live in Marin?


Sorry, I'm in the NY area.


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## Kilo7

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Don't tell me someone who has FAKE decals on a FAKE bike isn't posturing!


Good Morning, Happy New Year!!!

Posturing?..possible. I guess I have a problem with those on the real Pinarello looking down on lesser or fake bikes, like I have a problem with the ones on the fakes bike saying how stupid it is to spend that type of money on a bike. One thing I found out about buying a bike is the amount of research I had to do and what I learned in the last 2 years of falling in love with this passion. Learning about BB, compliance, groupset..oh, and the wheels!!, especially for my size, that was a tricky one, can't go too light. So i respect the price point. Not that I would buy fake, I don't think I could take a chance because of the torque I create. I broke I cassette after 18 months on my previous bike.


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## robdamanii

Kilo7 said:


> Good Morning, Happy New Year!!!
> 
> Posturing?..possible. I guess I have a problem with those on the real Pinarello looking down on lesser *or fake bikes*, like I have a problem with the ones on the fakes bike saying how stupid it is to spend that type of money on a bike. One thing I found out about buying a bike is the amount of research I had to do and what I learned in the last 2 years of falling in love with this passion. Learning about BB, compliance, groupset..oh, and the wheels!!, especially for my size, that was a tricky one, can't go too light. So i respect the price point. Not that I would buy fake, I don't think I could take a chance because of the torque I create. I broke I cassette after 18 months on my previous bike.


WTF wouldn't someone on a real Pinarello look down upon some asshat who thinks it's fine to buy a counterfeit bike just to pretend he's got a pricey bike that people will "ooh and ahh" over?

If you can't afford a Pinarello, buy something you can afford. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with buying within your budget. There is a HUGE problem with buying a cheap counterfeit bike in order to pretend you own something you don't.


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## config

Kilo7 said:


> actually I don't really say a lot when I ride, but I understand if you would want to avoid me..lol..no worries. I have met numerous friends from riding, from helping out those on the road when they have a flat, help with directions. Funny thing is, I never attacked anyone specifically here just made in observation. I'll remember next time when there is a topic to not have a different point of view and just go along with the conversation and play it safe so everyone feels good. Once again I never said i would buy a fake, just that there's a lot of energy discussing what kind of people buy fakes and how we judge them, not looking for people to agree with me, just making an observation. So you guys win, I lost the conversation.


Kilo7 - don't take this wrong but this particular forum brings out the best of people. You have to be "all in" with them, don't offer any observations, disagreements, or opinions non in-line with theirs especially if you want to fit in. Kind of reminds me of high school;-)


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## RC28

I can't believe it's a new year yet people don't seem to get tired of the same old arguments.

Keep it up folks and this just might become as lame as bikeforums...


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## robdamanii

RC28 said:


> I can't believe it's a new year yet people don't seem to get tired of the same old arguments.
> 
> Keep it up folks and this just might become as lame as bikeforums...


Well if people would stop doing stupid sh!t like buying counterfeit bikes, these conversations would go away...

You know...the obvious.


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## todayilearned

Fake watches and fake bikes are very different. Your life depends on one of them while being used...

I personally don't care when people buy counterfeits but one of the biggest problems is this give Pinarello bikes a bad name.

If someone bought fake and it had a catastrophic failure people who might not know it's a fake might assume Pinarello bikes have shoddy workmanship.


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## RC28

And just like that, Rob proves me right.

I rest my case.


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## RC28

todayilearned said:


> Fake watches and fake bikes are very different. Your life depends on one of them while being used...
> 
> I personally don't care when people buy counterfeits but one of the biggest problems is this give Pinarello bikes a bad name.
> 
> If someone bought fake and it had a catastrophic failure people who might not know it's a fake might assume Pinarello bikes have shoddy workmanship.


Aren't we still waiting for the catastrophic failures you speak of? Considering the high number of these that are out there, you would think that reports would be numerous yet I've counted TWO (and both fall under the realm of improper assembly/installation). On the other hand, many more are documented on authentic brand name bikes. Madone forks failing under Trek sponsored riders a year or so ago, anyone????


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## robdamanii

RC28 said:


> And just like that, Rob proves me right.
> 
> I rest my case.


As long as people buy immoral crap, I'll complain about it as is my right to do.

If you're so jaded that you don't care, then don't read the threads.


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## robdamanii

RC28 said:


> Aren't we still waiting for the catastrophic failures you speak of? Considering the high number of these that are out there, you would think that reports would be numerous yet I've counted TWO (and both fall under the realm of improper assembly/installation). On the other hand, many more are documented on authentic brand name bikes. Madone forks failing under Trek sponsored riders a year or so ago, anyone????


Yeah, about that. I'd wager $10 that there are FAR more authentic brand bikes out there than counterfeit pieces of crap.

But common sense doesn't apply here, right?


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## Cinelli 82220

Theft of intellectual property is...theft.
What is so hard to understand? Maybe people who have never produced anything valuable will never understand. 
Maybe instead of laughing at someone because their fake frame broke, it would be funny to see their fake frame seized, them prosecuted for buying it, and the makers prosecuted for making them.
Kilo, you claim to be former NBA? How would you feel if there was free reign to fake NBA merchandise and pirate NBA broadcasts? That would take a big bite out of revenue and salaries wouldn't it? But you'd be okay with it because it piracy is no big deal, right?


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## Kilo7

config said:


> Kilo7 - don't take this wrong but this particular forum brings out the best of people. You have to be "all in" with them, don't offer any observations, disagreements, or opinions non in-line with theirs especially if you want to fit in. Kind of reminds me of high school;-)


Thanks Config, had to be thick skinned playing sports, this is entertaining, not here to judge anyone's way of expressing themselves or their feeling toward me, people have a right to their opinion , no worries, I got in a nice 50 mile ride with some cool people today, weather was a nice 55 degrees. Looking forward to another one tomorrow. mentoring kids and helping people is a nice passion I have, makes it kind of hard to take this personal...lol. be safe on the road, and enjoy the week.


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## Kilo7

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Theft of intellectual property is...theft.
> What is so hard to understand? Maybe people who have never produced anything valuable will never understand.
> Maybe instead of laughing at someone because their fake frame broke, it would be funny to see their fake frame seized, them prosecuted for buying it, and the makers prosecuted for making them.
> Kilo, you claim to be former NBA? How would you feel if there was free reign to fake NBA merchandise and pirate NBA broadcasts? That would take a big bite out of revenue and salaries wouldn't it? But you'd be okay with it because it piracy is no big deal, right?


I said ex pro athlete/NBA, and that was to explain why I love cycling, its a close as i'm going to get to the rush I used to have. I never said it wasn't wrong, I just said there a lot of emotions build up about it. It does make for a great topic/discussion, I just added my 2 cents..just trying to participate. I also would not have a problem with item being seized. As far as merchandise goes with any sports, do you know how many fake jerseys, caps, sweats, tee shirts there are, from soccer, basketball, football and Cycling. I just don't get too bent out of shape over it. I have more friends that have lost even more money from prated/stolen music, lets be honest, anyone here download music and apps for free...hmmm...just saying. FYI , I like your idea of the frame being seized. if the companies want to play the game, they have to pay the price, and that goes for the consumers as well. I'm just trying not to judge every delinquent behavior. As I stated before, I fell in love with the Pinarello, because I saw a 62cm frame that looked awesome and it might just work for my size, This is how I stumbled onto this site, I actually never knew they made fakes (and I'm still not interested in a fake one). The funny thing is, there are a lot of people that are becoming educated on that fake Pinarello exist, which is a shame.


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## todayilearned

Kilo7 said:


> *I said ex pro athlete/NBA, and that was to explain why I love cycling*, its a close as i'm going to get to the rush I used to have. I never said it wasn't wrong, I just said there a lot of emotions build up about it. It does make for a great topic/discussion, I just added my 2 cents..just trying to participate. I also would not have a problem with item being seized. As far as merchandise goes with any sports, do you know how many fake jerseys, caps, sweats, tee shirts there are, from soccer, basketball, football and Cycling. I just don't get too bent out of shape over it. I have more friends that have lost even more money from prated/stolen music, lets be honest, anyone here download music and apps for free...hmmm...just saying. FYI , I like your idea of the frame being seized. if the companies want to play the game, they have to pay the price, and that goes for the consumers as well. I'm just trying not to judge every delinquent behavior. As I stated before, I fell in love with the Pinarello, because I saw a 62cm frame that looked awesome and it might just work for my size, This is how I stumbled onto this site, I actually never knew they made fakes (and I'm still not interested in a fake one). The funny thing is, there are a lot of people that are becoming educated on that fake Pinarello exist, which is a shame.


Just so you know... we can see what it said before you edited it.


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## Kilo7

no worries, I just looked and I did say NBA, that's why I edited it. Geez


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## LouisVuitton

The main problem is with fakes, trying to misrepresent something that is not the genuine product. If you wanted to make fake pinarellos fine, but dont call it a pinarello and associate it with an established brand. I havent seen another cyclist riding a fake Pinarello but if i did, i would be pissed and yes i would look down on them if they rode next to me. Why? Because they are a poseur.

If i didnt go to harvard, why would i buy a fake harvard diploma and ride around town with the fake diploma displayed all over my car? Its the same thing. Make up a fake diploma of something else thats not real. Dont associate with an existing, established brand with a reputation. If you cant afford the real thing, you simply dont buy it. There are tons of other great brands and models around besides Pinarello. 

And this goes with all counterfeit products....Dont buy them! When you buy them you are supporting the illigal manufacuring of these goods and hurting the genuine company of their sales and their image. Plus when you buy, it fuels them to keep producing these illegal products. If you dont buy it, they are less likely to keep making counterfeit products that dont sell. 

Being a nice person and a cool cyclist has nothing to do with any of this. Anyone supporting this no matter how nice they are shouldnt be purchasing these fake goods. Very simple


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## Kilo7

LouisVuitton said:


> The main problem is with fakes, trying to misrepresent something that is not the genuine product. If you wanted to make fake pinarellos fine, but dont call it a pinarello and associate it with an established brand. I havent seen another cyclist riding a fake Pinarello but if i did, i would be pissed and yes i would look down on them if they rode next to me. Why? Because they are a poseur.
> 
> If i didnt go to harvard, why would i buy a fake harvard diploma and ride around town with the fake diploma displayed all over my car? Its the same thing. Make up a fake diploma of something else thats not real. Dont associate with an existing, established brand with a reputation. If you cant afford the real thing, you simply dont buy it. There are tons of other great brands and models around besides Pinarello.
> 
> And this goes with all counterfeit products....Dont buy them! When you buy them you are supporting the illigal manufacuring of these goods and hurting the genuine company of their sales and their image. Plus when you buy, it fuels them to keep producing these illegal products. If you dont buy it, they are less likely to keep making counterfeit products that dont sell.
> 
> Being a nice person and a cool cyclist has nothing to do with any of this. Anyone supporting this no matter how nice they are shouldnt be purchasing these fake goods. Very simple


Guys, I said if someone gets caught and loose their bike, I got no problem with it, I never said I supported it, its just how a lot of energy is expending on the topic, and I'm not saying that a bad thing, I just had my views on it, we are not always supposed to agree on topics, that's why its a forum. I have also heard other point of view to make me think of things regarding Pinarello, like where are the original ones fabricated and where are the badge. I never said I was a cool or nice person, I said I have met some cool and nice people from my personal experience riding. Its funny how its seems to be easy to pick out what will cause more debate instead of some of the things I did agree with..smh


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## config

Kilo7 said:


> Guys, I said if someone gets caught and loose their bike, I got no problem with it, I never said I supported it, its just how a lot of energy is expending on the topic, and I'm not saying that a bad thing, I just had my views on it, we are not always supposed to agree on topics, that's why its a forum. I have also heard other point of view to make me think of things regarding Pinarello, like where are the original ones fabricated and where are the badge. I never said I was a cool or nice person, I said I have met some cool and nice people from my personal experience riding. Its funny how its seems to be easy to pick out what will cause more debate instead of some of the things I did agree with..smh


I'm with you Kilo7 but let me ask you something. 

If I buy my wife a 'real' Louis Vuitton bag and my kid a 'real' Cinelli bicycle does it give me full rights to use those names? Who's posing and/or how far does the copyright infringement go? This is too funny!


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## Chris-X

I actually like the RFM201. Can you buy it nude?

One sanctimonious poster here actually writes for livestrong, Is that .com or .org? Talk about RICO violations!


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## zizi

Fake is FAKE 
No need to elaborate further


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## robdamanii

Chris-X said:


> I actually like the RFM201. Can you buy it nude?
> 
> One sanctimonious poster here actually writes for livestrong, Is that .com or .org? Talk about RICO violations!


I'm frankly surprised anyone gives the time of day with all the manner of f*ckery that you prattle on about.

How's that hitman hire coming? You scratch up the pennies to take out your obsession yet?


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