# SRAM RED 2011 vs 2012 shifters?



## dndrich

I cannot figure out if there is any difference between the 2011 and 2012 RED shifters. Does anybody know if they are different in any way?


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## cxwrench

yep, they're different. no trim click on left. longer shift paddles, and slightly different shape overall. grippy texture on hoods. all the guys at the shop thought they feel a little smoother than the previous shifters.


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## dndrich

OK, interesting. What about that missing trim click? I actually found that trim click a bit annoying when trying the Rival version of that shifter.


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## redondoaveb

dndrich said:


> OK, interesting. What about that missing trim click? I actually found that trim click a bit annoying when trying the Rival version of that shifter.


New FD doesn't have trim feature. It has yaw, rotates to stay inline with chain.


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## dndrich

redondoaveb said:


> New FD doesn't have trim feature. It has yaw, rotates to stay inline with chain.


OK, very interesting. So then, in that case, if I went for the 2012 RED shifter, would it not work with say a Force front derailer? I know that the 2011 will work with other trim lines.


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## dndrich

redondoaveb said:


> That I'm not sure about. If I were to upgrade to 2012 shifters I would go with the new FD also. According to my LBS, the new FD works really nice.


I'm building a Frankenbike, and want to limit cost to some degree. But I understand the Red shifters are so great, that they are worth the extra money. So I want to go Red front shifters, force cranks and front derailer, force brakes, and rival medium cage rear derailer for the 11/32 cassette I plan to put there. So, perhaps under the circumstances I am better off with the 2011 Red shifters, which appear to be about $200 less.


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## redondoaveb

dndrich said:


> OK, very interesting. So then, in that case, if I went for the 2012 RED shifter, would it not work with say a Force front derailer? I know that the 2011 will work with other trim lines.


That I'm not sure about. If I were to upgrade to 2012 shifters I would go with the new FD also. According to my LBS, the new FD works really nice.


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## Bluffplace

If you upgrade the shifters, also upgrade the FD.


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## dndrich

Bluffplace said:


> If you upgrade the shifters, also upgrade the FD.


This is a new build. What do you mean by that?


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## Bluffplace

dndrich said:


> This is a new build. What do you mean by that?


comment was for dndrich


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## dndrich

Bluffplace said:


> comment was for dndrich


I know, that is me! I am starting a new build, and want to go with Red shifters, and Force front derailleur to save money...


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## cxwrench

redondoaveb said:


> New FD doesn't have trim feature. It has yaw, rotates to stay inline with chain.


derailleurs don't have 'trim' or not, the shifters do. for the OP, if you want to save $$$ use the 'old' Red w/ the Force derailleur. if you want the new stuff, use the new Red shifters w/ the new Red front derailleur.


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## redondoaveb

cxwrench said:


> derailleurs don't have 'trim' or not, the shifters do. for the OP, if you want to save $$$ use the 'old' Red w/ the Force derailleur. if you want the new stuff, use the new Red shifters w/ the new Red front derailleur.


Correct, I worded that wrong. I guess I should have said that with the new "yaw" feature, the derailleur doesn't need the shifter trim :blush2:


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## dndrich

cxwrench said:


> derailleurs don't have 'trim' or not, the shifters do. for the OP, if you want to save $$$ use the 'old' Red w/ the Force derailleur. if you want the new stuff, use the new Red shifters w/ the new Red front derailleur.


OK, that is what I am going to do. Thanks, folks.


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## Camilo

Does the new Red derailleur work with the old Red shifters?


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## redondoaveb

Here is Finish Line Rituals

- Several folks have requested a ride review of the new SRAM Red. Here goes:

* The biggest mechanical change is the movement of the front derailleur. The angular sweep of SRAM's Yaw design is a big improvement from first-generation Red. Is it in the same ballpark as Dura Ace Di2? Sadly, it's not. The tiptronic-like way Di2 commands your chainrings is dramatically superior to the clutch-popping clatter of mechanical shifting. I realize this is less a comment on Red than an observation about the wonders of electronic shifting. Nevertheless, the new Red is a substantial improvement, and remains (as I explain below) a drivetrain worthy of serious consideration.

* The new Red has the best braking I've ever felt. It has a light touch, light action and great modulation. This is a huge difference compared to Shimano and Campy, as well as first generation Red. I attribute this to the vastly improved cables (this is not good for our aftermarket Yokozuna sales) as well as the new lever shape.

* The adjustability of the Doubletap levers is a big deal. The proliferation of custom frame building and fit studios in the last several years is proof of the market viability of excruciatingly individualized bike fit. The new Red Doubletap levers encourage this sort of personalization.

* When you're cruising down the road, the new Red is significantly quieter than the first generation. SRAM's noise reduction efforts, particularly in the cassette and rear derailleur, work. But make no mistake, rear shifting is still super-loud because of the clacking sound in the right Doubletap lever, which is the trade off for such quick rear shifts.

* The lightness of the new Red is its main line of defense in the marketplace against Shimano's electronic shifting. It's 545g lighter than the current generation Dura Ace Di2 and 864g lighter than Ultegra Di2. (This includes all on-the-bike hardware required to mount Di2.) If you're building a BB30 bike, the weight differences are even more dramatic.

So which should you build your bike with, Red or Di2? There's no questioning that Dura Ace Di2 offers superior shifting. But on an otherwise equivalent bike, Dura Ace Di2 will cost an extra $2,000 and weigh an additional 1.25lbs. If money is no object, you're probably saving plenty of weight elsewhere already, so Dura Ace Di2 is the better option. But if money is a significant consideration, then the better comparison is between Red and Ultegra Di2, since they're both about the same price. Ultegra is less sleek than Dura Ace Di2. And, as mentioned above, it adds about the weight of an entire second frame to your bike. In factoring in price, performance, and aesthetics, our recommendation is Red. The superior shifting Di2 can't outweigh Ultegra's shortcomings.

* Finally, there has been a lack of clear information about compatibility specifics between first and second generation Red components. If you plan on upgrading in a piecemeal fashion, it's crucial that you install the second generation front derailleur, shifters, and crankset all at the same time due to the unique rotation of the Yaw front derailleur. You can pretty much assume that the Yaw front derailleur won't work with any other crankset out there.

Because the the Yaw front derailleur is an all-new design for SRAM, before building a bike with the new Red, be sure to watch this video beforehand to understand the all-new set up.

As for the rest, the first generation Red rear derailleur, cassette, chain, and brakes are compatible with second generation Red shifters, and vice-versa.

- Remind yourself why you fell in love with bike racing by watching the last few minutes of Stage 4 of this year's Tirreno Adriatico. It was a 251km, seven and a half hour marathon where simply reaching the finish line was an accomplishment. The attacking in the last few minutes make the race seem like a form of collective attempted murder:some info from Competitive Cyclist on the 2012 Sram Red.


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## Bluffplace

Camilo said:


> Does the new Red derailleur work with the old Red shifters?


The new rear derailluer is compatible with old and new shifters..

The new front derailluer should only be used with the new shifters.


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## redondoaveb

*Some info from Velonews*

SRAM’s new Red group is a clear step up from the previous Red generation, providing vastly improved front shifting, drastically reduced drivetrain noise, and a further reduction in weight. But can some of those improvements be had without buying the whole group? SRAM says no, but after testing on our own, we disagree.

The company claims that the new group, particularly the front shifting components, is designed as a system and should therefore only be used as such, with all the correct parts in place. We swapped old SRAM and even some Shimano parts into the mix to see how the drivetrain performed without the full complement of new Red components. Here are the results.
Full coverage of new SRAM Red launch >>

Rear shifting
The old SRAM rear shifter and the new rear derailleur are 100% compatible and work flawlessly. You miss out on the improved ergonomics of the new shifters, but performance does not suffer. The same goes for using the new rear shifter with an old derailleur: no issues whatsoever.

Using an old SRAM cassette (or a Shimano cassette) with the new derailleur works perfectly as well. The drivetrain is a bit louder than when used with the new Red cassette.

Front shifting
SRAM isn’t lying; the full complement of new Red shift components (shifter, front derailleur, crankset and chainrings) provides the best performance. No huge surprise there, though. Shimano puts forth the same claim, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get very, very good shifting with aftermarket or old parts.

However, there are a number of small changes to the new Red group that make the individual components play a little less nicely with their predecessors. Most obviously, the front shifter no longer has any trim function. The chainrings also use new ramp/pin timing and are spaced slightly differently than they have been in the past. The Yaw front derailleur is designed with these two changes in mind.

Nonetheless, every combination of old and new we tried still worked; not quite as well as the full system, but still better than the old group. Here’s the rundown, along with a little grading scale to give an indication of how much performance is lost. 10/10 is optimal performance using the entire new Red system. Old Red gets a 5/10. All the mix-matches we tried fell somewhere in between the two.

Disclaimer: Setup always varies slightly from frame-to-frame. We tested on a Trek Madone provided by SRAM. Just because we were able to get a certain mix of parts to work isn’t a guarantee that you will be able to — and vice versa.
Compatibility Grades

New shifters + new front derailleur + old SRAM SRM crank + old SRAM Force chainrings: 8/10
As expected, the new crankset and rings are responsible for a significant share of the shifting improvement over the old group. The different spacing of the old rings made front derailleur alignment during setup quite tricky, though. You’ll need to be a decent mechanic or have a lot of patience to get the group rolling with minimal chain rub, and even so, the small/small combo will likely be noisy. (But who rides in the 39/11? Certainly not our well-informed readers.)

Tech tip: Derailleur alignment is absolutely critical with the Yaw front derailleur, even more when not using the new Red crankset. Align the Yaw front derailleur’s setup lines with the big ring, as SRAM suggests, then twist the tail out just a hair before clamping the derailleur down.

Old shifters + new front derailleur + new crankset: 10/10
Performance appears flawless, but you get an extra trim stop out of the front shifter that is not needed thanks to the design of the front derailleur. Depending on which generation of SRAM shifter you have, that extra stop may be for the big or small chainring. Older shifters, which have the trim stop for the smaller chainring, actually work better with the new front derailleur, because the chain rub is most prevalent in the small/small gear combo.

Old shifters + new front derailleur + old crank: 9/10
Throwing on the new Yaw front derailleur offers up the same performance increase as the first setup, except you also get the superfluous trim stop provided by the old front shifter.

If you want the new front derailleur and the new shifters, you need the new crank as well unless you don’t mind chain rub.

New shifters + old front derailleur + new crankset: 6/10
The old derailleur still shifts poorly, no surprise there. But the new chainrings do help a bit. Again, we could not eliminate chain rub in the small/small combo, but that doesn’t matter much.

Old shifters + old front derailleur + new crankset: 8/10
We still experienced a bit of chain rub, and we couldn’t shift under power as you can with the new FD and crankset. But the shifting is still better than with old Red.

New shifters + Shimano Dura-Ace front derailleur + new crankset: 8/10
Good, except for the chain rub issue in the small/small gear combo. (Noticing a theme?)

Old shifters + Shimano Dura-Ace front derailleur + new crankset: 9/10
With its stiffer steel cage, Shimano’s 7900 front derailleur is vastly superior to the old Red front derailleur, so it is no surprise that it mates well with the new, stiffer chainrings of the new Red crankset. The new crank is very light, so this single upgrade is a good option for the weight weenies out there.

Tech tip: The neat little chain catcher that comes with the new Red front derailleur also works on braze-on Shimano and old SRAM front derailleurs.

Swapping chainrings
The improvements in front shifting come from a combination of the new Yaw front derailleur and drastically improved chainrings, which have been made significantly stiffer and include improved ramp and pin timing. Why not, therefore, just put the new rings on an old crankset and save some cash?

Turns out that is not such a good idea. The new rings may still be five-arm with a 130BCD (bolt circle diameter), just like other standard road rings, but SRAM now uses a hidden bolt behind the crankarm rather than five independent spider arms. That means that the new Red rings have to be rotated 180% in order to mount up to a regular crankset. The pin that normally sits behind the crankarm to prevent chain jam sits either to the left or right of the crankarm, making it useless.

Further, the inner ring doesn’t fit on a regular crankset at all unless you’re willing to file it down a bit. The tab that is intended to sit behind the crankarm on the new Red crank is a bit too long to attach to a five-arm spider on a regular crankset. Running an old little ring seems to mess up the spacing sufficiently to negate the advantage brought by using the new big ring.

Whether the improvement in shift quality that comes from the new rings is worth the risk of jamming the chain in between the rings and crankarm, and spending time filing the little ring, is up to you.
Conclusions

The takeaways from this testing are rather simple. With both the new front derailleur and new crankset, no trim is needed so you can use any generation of shifters. If you want the new shifters, though, you must buy both the crankset and the front derailleur unless you don’t mind chain rub.

If you don’t mind chain rub (in gears you shouldn’t be riding in anyway), you can mix and match just about anything, with varying degrees of performance. But as long as the front derailleur is aligned correctly, any make and model of crankset should function just fine.

If we had a bike with old SRAM Red, our first upgrade step would be to pick up the new front derailleur. With our old shifters and old crankset, the new front derailleur would improve shifting considerably with minimal mechanical headache.

Next up would be the crankset, which drops quite a bit of weight. With the new FD and new crankset, front shifting performance is as good as it is going to get from SRAM. We’ll have an extra trim stop in our left shifter, but that doesn’t matter.

Following the front shifting upgrades, the decision is between the new cassette and the new brakes. The cassette is even lighter than before and completely quiet, but the new brakes are designed around, and work much better with, the new wide rims we love. So, since we ride wide (25mm+) rims often, we’d go with the brakes first. If your rims are narrow, go with the cassette.

After that we would buy the new shifters for their improved ergonomics and shift feel. Then, finally, we’d pick up the new rear derailleur.


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## CHL

From what I have read, the new Sram Red Shifters have a taller hood like what you have with DA7800. How much taller is the hood on the new Sram Red shifters? Would you actually notice much difference? I wouldn't mind having a shifter with a slimmer profile and taller hoods.

From your post, I would need to purchase the Shifters and the Front Derailleur for the best possible shifting, absent the new crankset.

C.


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## cxwrench

CHL said:


> From what I have read, the new Sram Red Shifters have a taller hood like what you have with DA7800. How much taller is the hood on the new Sram Red shifters? Would you actually notice much difference? I wouldn't mind having a shifter with a slimmer profile and taller hoods.
> 
> From your post, I would need to purchase the Shifters and the Front Derailleur for the best possible shifting, absent the new crankset.
> 
> C.


take a look at this...the shifter paddle is also deeper than previously.


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## des16

*SRAM 2012 with Dura-ace crank*

I am building a new bike and was wondering if I can mix my Dura-ace crank, brakes and cassette with SRAM 2012 and/or 2011. My lbs (who will do the build) says no problem, but I am skeptical.


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## NWS Alpine

des16 said:


> I am building a new bike and was wondering if I can mix my Dura-ace crank, brakes and cassette with SRAM 2012 and/or 2011. My lbs (who will do the build) says no problem, but I am skeptical.


Only issue might be the brakes if they are 7900 dura-ace. The cable pull is different and the brakes are made for that 4:1 pull. Older stuff is 3:1. It will still work but modulation will be a little off.


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## robaixdude1

Just wanted to Chime in on how much I absolutely love my SRAM Red 2011. Incredibly durable and long-lasting. I tend to ride my gear into the ground here in Seattle metro area. This component set has been so durable, even with extended periods of no maintenance. Highly reco over and Shimano Flight deck stuff.


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## dcorn

redondoaveb said:


> * Finally, there has been a lack of clear information about compatibility specifics between first and second generation Red components. If you plan on upgrading in a piecemeal fashion, it's crucial that you install the second generation front derailleur, shifters, and crankset all at the same time due to the unique rotation of the Yaw front derailleur. You can pretty much assume that the Yaw front derailleur won't work with any other crankset out there.
> .





Bluffplace said:


> The new rear derailluer is compatible with old and new shifters..
> 
> The new front derailluer should only be used with the new shifters.





redondoaveb said:


> Old shifters + new front derailleur + new crankset: 10/10
> Performance appears flawless, but you get an extra trim stop out of the front shifter that is not needed thanks to the design of the front derailleur. Depending on which generation of SRAM shifter you have, that extra stop may be for the big or small chainring. Older shifters, which have the trim stop for the smaller chainring, actually work better with the new front derailleur, because the chain rub is most prevalent in the small/small gear combo.
> 
> Old shifters + new front derailleur + old crank: 9/10
> Throwing on the new Yaw front derailleur offers up the same performance increase as the first setup, except you also get the superfluous trim stop provided by the old front shifter.
> 
> If we had a bike with old SRAM Red, our first upgrade step would be to pick up the new front derailleur. With our old shifters and old crankset, the new front derailleur would improve shifting considerably with minimal mechanical headache.


Makes me wonder if all these bike shops are trying to get everyone to spend thousands on a full new groupset by lying to them about compatibility. I plan on just upgrading my FD because everything else works perfectly. Plus, I have smaller hands, so I don't like the looks of even big hoods and brake levers on the new Red.


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## cxwrench

dcorn said:


> Makes me wonder if all these bike shops are trying to get everyone to spend thousands on a full new groupset by lying to them about compatibility. I plan on just upgrading my FD because everything else works perfectly. Plus, I have smaller hands, so I don't like the looks of even big hoods and brake levers on the new Red.


yes, the new front derailleur works w/ the old shifters. but...just because the new levers are longer does NOT mean they'll be worse for people w/ small hands. if you've done your research, and i'm not sure you have...you'd know that SRAM has adjustable reach for the brake lever and shifter paddle. so, you can adjust the reach in to work for even very small hands and the longer lever gives a very nice feel, almost like having a bit more leverage.


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## NWS Alpine

I would even argue the new Red levers specifically make it easier for smaller hands to use them. More leverage and shorter reach from the drops. I have large hands and with compact bars I can shift and brake with 1 finger from anywhere on the hoods or drops. The leverage is great.


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## Feetay

*SRAM Yaw works with 2011 RED*

Yes it works!

I fitted Yaw to 2011 Red and it works fine. May not be the same for every bike but it definiely works on mine (BMC RM01). I know SRAM say it won't work but it does.

I can't post links yet but if you search VeloNews for SRAM RED 2012 2011 they have a write up on what works.


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## NWS Alpine

Yeah I don't think that people were saying that it doesn't. Sram just recommends certain configs for best possible performance. Using the old shifters works fine but they have trim positions that aren't needed. Still works better than using the old front mech. 

Using the old front mech with the new shifters will work but the new shifters have no trim so you will have chain rub with that combo if you cross chain at all.


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## buggymancan

I am looking to set up my CX bike as follows:

New 12' Sram red Ergodynamic Shifters
New 12' Sram Yaw FD
11' Sram Red/Black CX Crankset GXP 110 BCD w/ Wickworks compact 34/44 chainrings. 
My questions is will the new 12' Yaw front derailleur plays well with the compact chainrings? I am aware that the 12 Sram Exo Crank and rings may be spaced slightly differently than the 11' Red Black, but I understand that it all works provided one avoids the small- small gear combo. Anyone able to comment on this setup?


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## Wildcard

I have 2011 SRAM RED love it (force breaks), and the only mod I have made is to put 2012 FD on which took it to a whole nother level. If you wanna save cassh and get SRAM Red groupset would recomend this setup. My next bike will be a full 2012 build, but till then this gives me one of the main upgrades of the 2012 groupset with very minimal spend.


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## jmoy76

FWIW, I bought a bike w/ full Rival and ended up upgrading some parts one at a time w/ new Red. Have had no problems w/ the following:

- New Red Exogram cranks, the rest Rival
- New Red cranks and Yaw FD, the rest Rival

Am planning on getting the new shifters as well.


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