# Michelin Pro 4 Service Course - Anything Better for the $$$?



## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

I ride a Cannondale SuperSix Evo 2 SRAM Red. I weigh around 200 lb. I have the stock Ksyrium Equipe S wheels on the bike with no plans to change any time soon. I ride on fairly hilly secondary (paved) roads in Upstate SC. I ride 2-3 times a week for 32-65 miles per ride. I do not race.

The stock tires are wearing out and need to be replaced. They are the Mavic Yksion Pros, 23. My only experience is with some cheap wire bead Vittorias on a previous bike and with the Michelin Pro 4 Service Course tires I replaced those with. I never had any problems with the Pro 4 tires and am leaning toward buying some new ones for the Evo since I need new tires. I have found them for less than $40.

My question: Are there other tires I should consider? As I said, I have no experience with other brands. Does anyone have experience with other brands and the Michelins. And can you state why that tire may be better than the Pro 4's?

BTW, I plan to stick with the 23 width and I run about 100 psi, front and rear.

Thanks.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

For your weight it's more practical to run 25c tires. That being said, you should consider the Michelin Pro4 endurance for added tread life and a bit better puncture resistance. I also recommend the Continental Grand Prix 4000S and the Vittoria Rubino Pro3. The Contis can be found for around $36-38 each at Pro Bike Kit or Ribble. The Vittorias are $24.73 each at Ribble right now, which is an outstanding deal on those tires.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

SauronHimself said:


> For your weight it's more practical to run 25c tires. That being said, you should consider the Michelin Pro4 endurance for added tread life and a bit better puncture resistance. I also recommend the Continental Grand Prix 4000S and the Vittoria Rubino Pro3. The Contis can be found for around $36-38 each at Pro Bike Kit or Ribble. The Vittorias are $24.73 each at Ribble right now, which is an outstanding deal on those tires.


Thanks for the reply. I will check those other tires out.

Meanwhile, how would I benefit by going to the 25c width? Thanks.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

jeepsouth said:


> Thanks for the reply. I will check those other tires out.
> 
> Meanwhile, how would I benefit by going to the 25c width? Thanks.


With slightly wider tire you can lower the PSI 10 pounds and have a more comfortable ride but still retain the same air volume to prevent pinch flats. Plus, your bike will be more stable under hard efforts and in cornering, which becomes increasingly important as the rider's weight increases.


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## fa63 (Aug 16, 2007)

Larger tire width means more volume, which in turn means you can run lower pressures. That said, at 200 lbs and 100 psi it sounds like you are under-inflating your tires, so you might not want to run too much lower than that even with 25mm tires.

I should warn you on something else also: Michelin 25mm tires tend to run larger than advertised. For instance, my 25mm Pro 4 SC tires measure 28mm on my Reynolds 46 rims (which are 20.8mm wide). This can create issues with clearance, as I am not sure if an Evo can safely accommodate tires that wide.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm a huge fan of Michelins. 
ProBikeKit has been having great sales prices on them.
Even the Michelin Lithion 2 tires are very good.
FWIW, I don't like the feel of the Continentals. Tried them and sold them after a 50 mile ride.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I also like Michelins and have been using Pro3s.
At your weight I think you would be better off with Conti 4000S.
I use them on my tandem and it's also a great tire and more durable than Michelins.
I feel it rides harsher on my single but I weigh 135 lbs.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

I have read about running wider tires on the new wider rims and having a more vertical sidewall, as opposed to the lightbulb shape, seems to make since.

However, aren't my rims around 19mm wide? Wouldn't running a wider tire make them even more lightbulb shaped? Would this not negatively effect handling...just what the wider rims are supposed to help?


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Same weight and roads as you and I run a 25 in the back on a narrow 18mm (external) mavic. 
95 psi in back and 90 in front works for me on Krylion or Pro 4 Endurance Michelins.


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

jeepsouth said:


> I have read about running wider tires on the new wider rims and having a more vertical sidewall, as opposed to the lightbulb shape, seems to make since.
> 
> However, aren't my rims around 19mm wide? Wouldn't running a wider tire make them even more lightbulb shaped? Would this not negatively effect handling...just what the wider rims are supposed to help?


I ride 25's or 28's whenever possible. You will like them too. Gatorskins will give you good life, acceptable ride, and great flat resistance.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

My Own Private Idaho said:


> I ride 25's or 28's whenever possible. You will like them too. Gatorskins will give you good life, acceptable ride, and great flat resistance.


Great suggestions everyone. Thanks.

Short of actually trying the tires on the bike, how do I determine what width my Evo can handle? Do I need to invest in some calipers? Seems like the consensus is that wider is better, though I'm still not clear on why, especially with narrower wheels. But, I want to be sure my bike can handle the greater width. I visually inspected my bike, and there is not a lot of extra clearance.

There has been some discussion of tire pressure. For my weight, what psi should I be running? Would that psi be the same for front and rear, and for both 23 and 25c tires? I ride on everything from fresh asphalt to old pavement full of alligator cracks. I do not ride in wet conditions or on any dirt or gravel.

BTW, I'm still leaning toward the Pro 4's due to the price. Mistake? I know the other tires mentioned are in the ballpark price-wise, but my past experience (limited though it is) has me stuck on the Michelins for some reason. Is there something I'm missing?

Thanks for all of the helpful info.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

I also like the Michelin Pro 4 Endurance. They offer excellent grip, wear well, provide a pretty smooth ride, seem very good against flats. I use the 23mm tires and I am 190lbs. I typically run 100-110 front and 110 rear. The Pro 4 service course tires should grip a little better, be a little lighter, but wear out quicker and be more prone to flats


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I get Pro4s from Ribble for $28 ea. I buy a few, some tubes, etc. to net it up to qualify for free shipping.


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## fa63 (Aug 16, 2007)

jeepsouth said:


> Great suggestions everyone. Thanks.
> 
> Short of actually trying the tires on the bike, how do I determine what width my Evo can handle? Do I need to invest in some calipers? Seems like the consensus is that wider is better, though I'm still not clear on why, especially with narrower wheels. But, I want to be sure my bike can handle the greater width. I visually inspected my bike, and there is not a lot of extra clearance.


Try contacting Cannondale (or the LBS, if you trust them) and see what they have to say.



jeepsouth said:


> There has been some discussion of tire pressure. For my weight, what psi should I be running? Would that psi be the same for front and rear, and for both 23 and 25c tires? I ride on everything from fresh asphalt to old pavement full of alligator cracks. I do not ride in wet conditions or on any dirt or gravel.


I think the numbers in this article provide a good starting point:

http://www.bccclub.org/documents/Tireinflation.pdf


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

jeepsouth said:


> I have read about running wider tires on the new wider rims and having a more vertical sidewall, as opposed to the lightbulb shape, seems to make since.
> 
> However, aren't my rims around 19mm wide? Wouldn't running a wider tire make them even more lightbulb shaped? Would this not negatively effect handling...just what the wider rims are supposed to help?


As with any answer, it depends. And in this case, optimal tire width is directly related to the wheels you're riding. A couple of years ago, Zipp's lead engineer Josh Poertner wrote to Lennard Zinn regarding this issue. I have copied and pasted an interesting nugget of information Velos News' Tech FAQ below:

The question really needs to be in regards to the balance of lower Crr (coefficient of rolling resistance) from the wider tire against the aero penalty. The 303 was designed to be as good as possible with 23mm tires, and as a result, its rim is 28.5mm wide. To behave similarly with the 25mm, it would likely have to be at least 2mm wider. -Poertner

Your Equipes have an external width of 19.5mm, which means that wheel set has been optimized for tires narrower than 25mm. And as someone has noted above, just because a tire states that it is 23mm or 25mm, does not really mean that it's actually 23mm or 25mm wide. Some run narrower and some run wider. You'll just have to experiment what works well for you. 

Oh, and if you don't race, then aero vs. rolling resistance doesn't matter too much; buy what's comfortable and affordable for you and ride!


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

I am not knowledgable enough to recommend tire size/pressure...but I have been running Pro 4 SC tires...

I landed up with a set (via PBK) for cheap last summer. I managed to put some 1000 miles on them and didn't have a single issue with them. They ride well and no flats. Before that I was running Conti 4000s and I have to say, I found the ride of the Pro4 to be much better overall (comfort wise). speed/handling/whatever else...I'm not such a critical rider that I push my bike to the limits so I can't speak on that. Comfort and durability however, I can.

I run a 23mm tire on 23mm wheels and being 175lbs, I'll run them at 95-105psi figuring what I plan to do with them that day.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

jeepsouth said:


> Great suggestions everyone. Thanks.
> 
> Short of actually trying the tires on the bike, how do I determine what width my Evo can handle? Do I need to invest in some calipers? Seems like the consensus is that wider is better, though I'm still not clear on why, especially with narrower wheels. But, I want to be sure my bike can handle the greater width. I visually inspected my bike, and there is not a lot of extra clearance.
> 
> ...


Try this for tire pressure:

http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf

At your weight I think you will find Michelins will wear fast especially the rear tire. You will get more miles out of a Conti 4000S. You could try a Michelin Endurance on the rear and SC on the front. The Endurance won't ride as nice as the SC.


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## bocksta (Mar 22, 2008)

What size EVO frame do you have? Ive been running Conti 4000s 23's after trying 25's and finding them just to close to the rear chain stays. They looked like they would be ok, but rubbed during the ride.


The same wheels fit my CAAD10 just fine with the 25's. I find the EVO rides better than the CAAD 10 even with the 23's anyway.
Both frames are 54's


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Lots of over thinking on the topic of tires.

The Michelins are great tires, so you lose nothing by staying with them. Experimenting with 25mm tires on your next set might be worthwhile...but don't over think it...just do it and judge for yourself. You won't lose anything by trying the 25mm tires, so it won't be a waste of time or money.

If you want to try something different just for the sake of trying something new, then the Continental GP4000S is a good suggestion because they do last longer than other tires I've used (but I don't believe you're going to tell much difference in ride quality or handling). 

Finally, if you want to try a tire that offers an excellent ride quality (which I do believe you would discern), then you could try Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX III - but they wear out quickly and cost more than the Michelins or Continental tires.

FWIW, I also have used the Mavic Yskion Powerlink and Griplink tires, and I believe they are excellent...and they can sometimes be found at ridiculously low prices (I paid $20/ea earlier this year).


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks, everyone for all of the great info and input.

First, I ride a size 56 Evo 2, SRAM Red, 2013 model, if that helps.

What was said about the width of my wheels sort of confirms my line of thinking. I thought one of the main benefits of the wider wheels was in yielding a more vertical sidewall as opposed to the "light bulb" shape. This supposedly allows for the use of a wider tire which could be ridden at a lower psi, thereby increasing comfort. The more vertical sidewall also would provide for better handling. This may be an over-simplification of the matter, and, if I am incorrect somewhere, someone please set me straight.

So, since my wheels are 19.5mm (outside), wouldn't that nullify the gains associated with wider tire, other than a possible increase in ride comfort? As an aside, I am not having any ride comfort problems, though I admit that I have not experienced the ride a wider tire would provide, so the gains may surprise me. Also, I don't race and don't really push the limits of my bike/tires/self in screaming around corners or on hair-raising descents, so, within reason, handling isn't really an issue. However, tire quality, endurance and price are important.

Bottom line now is that I'm now leaning toward the Conti Grand Prix 4000S for their reported long life.

Thanks for the help!:thumbsup:


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Agree with the poster who said Michelin Pro-4 Endurance.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

At this point there's only one way to find out which tire you like better.
If the tire you choose sucks that much you could give it to a friend or fleabay it.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

jeepsouth said:


> Bottom line now is that I'm now leaning toward the Conti Grand Prix 4000S for their reported long life.


I think 23mm Conti GP4000S are excellent next tires for you, and you'll have a good comparison to the Michelin tires.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

tvad said:


> I think 23mm Conti GP4000S are excellent next tires for you, and you'll have a good comparison to the Michelin tires.


Thanks. They seemed to be the most mentioned choice from those that replied.

I appreciate all of the input. I don't have a lot of experience and wanted some input before I put down +/- $100 on some new rubber. Thanks!!!


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

I ran GP4000s early this summer. Got a fatal sidewall cut on my front tire at 250 miles (23mm tire, 23mm wheel, 100psi, 170lb rider). Did a ton of online reading and found this was common with them (sidewall issues, if you don't believe me google "GP4000s sidewall cut")

I decided that getting 250 miles out of a $45 tire was crap so I moved on...I've been very happy with the pro 4s...


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

Typetwelve said:


> I ran GP4000s early this summer. Got a fatal sidewall cut on my front tire at 250 miles (23mm tire, 23mm wheel, 100psi, 170lb rider). Did a ton of online reading and found this was common with them (sidewall issues, if you don't believe me google "GP4000s sidewall cut")
> 
> I decided that getting 250 miles out of a $45 tire was crap so I moved on...I've been very happy with the pro 4s...


Very interesting. Thanks for the heads-up.

Do you ride the Pro 4 SC or the Endurance?


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

I use Michelin Pro 4 SC tire's and are very pleased with there performance. I use to run Pro 3 but was not happy with tread life from mileage and cuts. Was going to switch to Conti but gave Pro 4 a chance. I must say the tires are leaps and bounds better. Tread life on Pro 4 2000 miles of hard riding no cuts on tread Pro 3 800 miles riding the same route tire looked like I razor blade attacked it. Last year went thru 4 Pro 3 due to mileage wearing then out or to badly cut to trust tire any more. This summer replaced tire once. A good comparison because I ride mostly the same mileage each summer and the same route. PRO 4 are great tires all around and can be had from big retailers online for about $28 a tire on there best deals. Don't use your experience with Pro 3 to judge Pro 4. Pro 4 are that much better, Michelin did an excellent job with the revision.


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## Bob Walters (Aug 26, 2013)

I have tried the Rubinos, 4000s, etc. I find the Pro 4 SC clearly superior in terms of comfort, grip, and handling. I run 25mm (I'm 220#).

Bob


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

Bob Walters said:


> I have tried the Rubinos, 4000s, etc. I find the Pro 4 SC clearly superior in terms of comfort, grip, and handling. I run 25mm (I'm 220#).
> 
> Bob


Thanks, all. I've decided to stick with the Pro 4's. They have been ordered and are on the way. Thanks for all of the suggestions. I almost went with the Conti's, but stayed with the Michelins since there was no overwhelming reason not to. As one poster said, I was probably overthinking this anyway.

Any suggestions on psi I should run? Front and rear. Thanks,


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Appropriate pressure depends in the installed tire width (tire size, rim width), rider/bike combined weight and distribution, and road conditions. The brand or model tire it is pretty much immaterial to choosing the optimal pressure.


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## genux (Jun 18, 2012)

Enjoy the Pro4's. Last year (August-December), I experimented with different sets of tires in Northern California riding, whereas previously I used the Conti GP4000S 25 — great tires, but I had a sidewall failure within the first 1000 miles of riding.

I currently ride:
Vittoria Rubino Pro III Slick 23
Michelin Pro4 Service Course 23

For reference, I'm 195lbs and ride both at 110-115psi.

Looking at my ride history, I can push about 2,000-2,250 miles for either brand tire when mounted on the rear, and close to 4,500 miles for the front. The Pro4 tires tend to "square off" when it's nearing the 2,000-mile marker for me.

Cornering and gripping seem to be the same for me, but I'm not as aggressive to find out just how far I can push them. I'd have to give the Rubinos the slight edge in terms of perceived smoothness when it comes to nice, straight roads.

As for puncture resistance, I've had the same equal number of flats. They hold up well against most of the debris on the road, and I've found that their overall riding feel outweighs going back to Armadillos, HardShells, or GatorSkins.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I'd go with Pro 4 Race or Service Course as front tire. Then Pro 4 Endurance as rear tire for longevity. I'd go with this combination before I'll go with the Conti 4000s tires.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

All of these tire longevity reccomendations would mean a lot more IF the inflation pressure and the rider weight are also indicated.

A continously underinflated tire will wear prematurely; it will be subject to sidewall cracking and it will be subject to higher abrasion than necessary.

Just saying.....


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

jeepsouth said:


> Very interesting. Thanks for the heads-up.
> 
> Do you ride the Pro 4 SC or the Endurance?


SC.

I'd love to try out a 25mm but they seem to be harder to find in that size on the "discount" sites like Chainreaction or PBK..


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> All of these tire longevity reccomendations would mean a lot more IF the inflation pressure and the rider weight are also indicated.
> 
> A continously underinflated tire will wear prematurely; it will be subject to sidewall cracking and it will be subject to higher abrasion than necessary.
> 
> Just saying.....


the recommendations are made with the minimal assumption that the rider knows how to follow manufacturer's psi recommendation, and common sense.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> the recommendations are made with the minimal assumption that the rider knows how to follow manufacturer's psi recommendation, and common sense.



Manufacturer's recommendations on max pressure refer to blow-off pressure and nothing more. The stamped pressure is typically way below the actual pressure the tire needs to be at to blow-off the rim. They (manufacturers) install a representative number of tires on the appropriate width and type of rim, put them in a water tank and inflate to twice the stamped pressure before the tire blows-off. That's all the max stamped pressure stands for. It does not represent the optimum tire drop or anything of that sort that could be indicative of performance.

Optimum inflation pressure is quite dynamic and depends on type of rider, type of terrain, type of tire, type of tarmac, etc etc. in other words, there is not one pressure that is optimum for any rider all times.

Typically, however, people tend to under-inflate their skinny tires and over-inflate their fat tires. Under-inflation is liable to cause pinch flats, sidewall damage, accelerated wear etc and that was the point of my previous post.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> Manufacturer's recommendations on max pressure refer to blow-off pressure and nothing more. The stamped pressure is typically way below the actual pressure the tire needs to be at to blow-off the rim. They (manufacturers) install a representative number of tires on the appropriate width and type of rim, put them in a water tank and inflate to twice the stamped pressure before the tire blows-off. That's all the max stamped pressure stands for. It does not represent the optimum tire drop or anything of that sort that could be indicative of performance.
> 
> Optimum inflation pressure is quite dynamic and depends on type of rider, type of terrain, type of tire, type of tarmac, etc etc. in other words, there is not one pressure that is optimum for any rider all times.
> 
> Typically, however, people tend to under-inflate their skinny tires and over-inflate their fat tires. Under-inflation is liable to cause pinch flats, sidewall damage, accelerated wear etc and that was the point of my previous post.


So, i guess I will continue to run a 100 lb. psi front and rear. No problems thus far with excessive flats or ride comfort.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

jeepsouth said:


> So, i guess I will continue to run a 100 lb. psi front and rear. No problems thus far with excessive flats or ride comfort.


If it works for you........ most people though find that reducing the front by 10% works better


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

@jeepsouth

You could start with this
http://www.dorkypantsr.us/bike-tire-pressure-calculator.html
and then adjust up or down until you find the sweet spot for you and the tarmac you are riding on.
Go up for smooth paved roads and down for the rougher/rough stuff.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> @jeepsouth
> 
> You could start with this
> Bicycle tire pressure calculator
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I think I'm like everyone else in that every route I ride has a mixture of pavement types, from smooth, new asphalt to crumbling surfaces (though I try to avoid those areas if I can).


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I either use Conti 4000s, or Michelin Pro3/4 tires. They're both good tires. The Contis run a little larger than the Michelins. Buy a bunch of them at Ribble along with some Michelin tubes. 

Alot of people here are real advocates for larger 25mm tires. Larger means taller, not wider. They only get wider if you buy a wider rim. I was in the market for some custom wheels and went by the LBS to look at a set with wider rims (23 ve 19.5). I was worried that my bike would not have clearance for them. The clearance was the same, but how the tire sat on the rim was different. On the more narrow rims, the tire bulges out on the sides versus being even on the wider wheels. I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I'm going to try a set. 

Frankly, I can't tell much difference between Conti and Michelin tires. They both wear well and I can usually find them at decent prices. I generally get what's cheap. 

I bought some 25 mm tires, but they only fit on one of my three bikes. And as fate would have it, the bike they do fit on I ride the least. Frankly, I don't feel much difference.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

Pro 4's came today. I have mounted them, but probably will not be able to ride until Friday. :cryin:


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Be careful cornering on those until you get them scrubbed in. I found Pro3 and Pro4s to be quite slick at first due to some kind clear waxy coating. You can scrape the tread of new one with a dull knife edge and see lots of "wax" come off onto the blade.


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Curious to how things went. I have a SS EVO 52 cm on order. I normally use 25 mom 4kS tires. I also have new 25 mm Mich P4 service course tires waiting in the wings. I'm concerned about both tires fitting on the SS.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

kps88 said:


> Curious to how things went. I have a SS EVO 52 cm on order. I normally use 25 mom 4kS tires. I also have new 25 mm Mich P4 service course tires waiting in the wings. I'm concerned about both tires fitting on the SS.


I have a 2013 SS EVO. I discovered yesterday that my 25mm Vittoria rear tire was rubbing on the drive side chainstay. I replaced the 25mm with a 23mm and it's all good now.

FWIW...


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Oh, that sucks. Guess I will have to get 23 mm pro 4's.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

kps88 said:


> Curious to how things went. I have a SS EVO 52 cm on order. I normally use 25 mom 4kS tires. I also have new 25 mm Mich P4 service course tires waiting in the wings. I'm concerned about both tires fitting on the SS.



Sorry, I failed to add what size Pro 4 I bought. I went with the 23 c, so I have no new info for you. I will say, even with the 23 width, there is not much room on the SS Evo for anything much bigger.


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Typetwelve said:


> SC.
> 
> I'd love to try out a 25mm but they seem to be harder to find in that size on the "discount" sites like Chainreaction or PBK..


$28 at PBK


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

kps88 said:


> $28 at PBK


As I stated in my original post, I had had a good experience with the 23 c Pro 4's in the past, and I am happy to report that nothing has changed. The tires have good grip in the corners and, for me, they provide a comfortable ride. I am running them at 100 psi, front and rear, and, so far, have no reason to change, though I admit to a lack of experience with varying pressures. Admittedly, I don't race or scream down hills and there may well be much better tires for that type of rider. But, for me, a recreational rider, albeit one who wants and appreciates quality, I am very pleased with the Pro 4's and really have not found anything better for the money, especially since they can almost always be found for $40 or less.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

jeepsouth said:


> Thanks, all. I've decided to stick with the Pro 4's. They have been ordered and are on the way. Thanks for all of the suggestions. I almost went with the Conti's, but stayed with the Michelins since there was no overwhelming reason not to.


The Pro 4 and the GP4000s are both lightweight racing tires. I have had bad flat / cut experiences with both tires, especially the Pro 4. Anecdotally, my group has not done well with these tires either. Also, they are both way, way too expensive at typical US retail prices (less so if you get a deal online). 

Personally, I prioritize flat / cut resistance far above 50-100g of weight for training tires. IMO, if you're not racing, I highly recommend running a slightly heavier tire with better flat / cut resistance. I know you already bought tires, but for the future, I have had great luck with the Nashbar Duro Pro folding tires. They have zero bling appeal, but they're $21 at full price (they go on sale all the time for even less), relatively light (250g), extremely tough, corner really well, work in the wet and ride comfortably. I have ~3K miles on a set with no flats whatsoever. Really bombproof tires. They are made by Maxxis as far as I can tell.


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

Hiro11 said:


> The Pro 4 and the GP4000s are both lightweight racing tires. I have had bad flat / cut experiences with both tires, especially the Pro 4. Anecdotally, my group has not done well with these tires either. Also, they are both way, way too expensive at typical US retail prices (less so if you get a deal online).
> 
> Personally, I prioritize flat / cut resistance far above 50-100g of weight for training tires. IMO, if you're not racing, I highly recommend running a slightly heavier tire with better flat / cut resistance. I know you already bought tires, but for the future, I have had great luck with the Nashbar Duro Pro folding tires. They have zero bling appeal, but they're $21 at full price (they go on sale all the time for even less), relatively light (250g), extremely tough, corner really well, work in the wet and ride comfortably. I have ~3K miles on a set with no flats whatsoever. Really bombproof tires. They are made by Maxxis as far as I can tell.


Thanks for the suggestion. I have the Pro 4's on now, but I may give the Nashbars a try in the future.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

If you missed it, here's a comprehensive review of the Pro 4 lineup

Michelin Pro4 Review - Slowtwitch.com

Key findings - the 25 mm Pro 4 SC measures about 28 mm wide on both wide and narrow rims
"I mounted the 25mm Service Course up to my pair of long-term-test Hed Ardennes+. These are the super-fat new version of the Ardennes, which feature a 20.6mm internal width, and 25.3mm external width. On the fat rims, these ‘25mm’ tires measured a whopping 28.0mm." 
"I asked Michelin’s Eric Doyne to provide me with a measurement on a narrow 15c rim (a Shimano C35 clincher), and it measured 27.9mm (both were measured at 90psi)."

Looks like one needs to be careful with the Pro 4 SC 25 mm version -

"My only gripe is with the labeling. This is not a 25mm tire. At best, I could give them the benefit of the doubt and call it a 27mm tire. I would love to see the label change on this tire, and add a third option of a real 25mm for those with limited frame clearance."

The width of the 23 mm Pro 4 SC

"The tire width was measured on a 15c Mavic Open Pro rim (internal width of 15mm)....MP4SC: width=23.3, mass=202g"

On rolling resistance at about 24 mph with about 187 lb bike + rider load (on 2 tires)
"MP4SC 'on road' Crr = .0043, Power for a pair @40kph=40W"

"Continental GP4000S 23C (same conditions) Crr = .0034, Power for a pair @40kph=31W"

Nice article, worth reading.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

jeepsouth said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I have the Pro 4's on now, but I may give the Nashbars a try in the future.


Or just get Pro 4 Endurance- been bulletproof so far


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

Z'mer said:


> If you missed it, here's a comprehensive review of the Pro 4 lineup
> 
> Michelin Pro4 Review - Slowtwitch.com
> 
> ...


Being a triathlete I saw the ST article too. Good info on differences among Michelin's road tires, but their source's relative Crr results had me scratching my head a bit. 
- Vittoria's OC testing MUCH faster than Zipp Tangente (Crr .0031 vs .0047, or 14W @ 40kph!) despite being (essentially, according to local Zipp rep) same tire except for Zipp's aero speed tweaks. 
- Conti Supersonic sl slower than GP4k, while Conti's own press/testing & every other test I've read (inc Tour mag) finds Supersonic to be significantly faster.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

FYI - I have a 60cm Cannondale EVO Hi-Mod. I run 25mm tires and 25mm HED rims. No issues with the frame. However, I loose brake modulation running such a wide rim. I also look handling.


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## TrekGeek (Nov 8, 2013)

I have 313 km on my Pro 4 Endurance tires and that includes a few rides in mild rain weather. These tires have great grip and are tougher than the factory slicks that were on the bike. I am a 200 lb rider and I am running the 25c tire. Hope you. Enjoy your Pro 4 tires!


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## jeepsouth (Nov 28, 2011)

TrekGeek said:


> I have 313 km on my Pro 4 Endurance tires and that includes a few rides in mild rain weather. These tires have great grip and are tougher than the factory slicks that were on the bike. I am a 200 lb rider and I am running the 25c tire. Hope you. Enjoy your Pro 4 tires!



So far, I'm loving the Pro4's. Light weight, good grip, durable (but no real mileage accumulated yet). Happy with the purchase and I'll update after I pile on some real miles.
Thanks for everyone's help.


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## metalheart (Sep 3, 2010)

I just mounted 25mm Pro4 Service Course on Dt 440 rims. They measure about 26.8mm at 110psi


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

metalheart said:


> I just mounted 25mm Pro4 Service Course on Dt 440 rims. They measure about 26.8mm at 110psi


What do they measure at 85? I imagine very close to the same?


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## metalheart (Sep 3, 2010)

looigi said:


> What do they measure at 85? I imagine very close to the same?


I fitst inflated them to about 90 psi and the measurement was only a couple of tenths less that at 110. I was surprised since others have measured closer to 28mm.


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

According to my lbs, the Mich PSC 4 tires in 25 mm fit my Cannondale Super Six EVO. I have it on layaway and will pick up as soon as weather gets better. I have my fitting Friday and he suggested I have the tires that I will use on. I was worried they would be too wide for the rear chainstay, but he said no problems with the width of the tires. They are on Ksyrium Elite S wheels. Of course, haven't ridden it so not sure how they will be when I start to climb out of saddle. Hopefully no rubbing. If there are any issues, I have a new set of 23 mm as well. Will then sell the 25 mm ones.


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

kps88 said:


> According to my lbs, the Mich PSC 4 tires in 25 mm fit my Cannondale Super Six EVO. I have it on layaway and will pick up as soon as weather gets better. I have my fitting Friday and he *suggested I have the tires that I will use on*. I was worried they would be too wide for the rear chainstay, but he said no problems with the width of the tires. They are on Ksyrium Elite S wheels. Of course, haven't ridden it so not sure how they will be when I start to climb out of saddle. Hopefully no rubbing. If there are any issues, I have a new set of 23 mm as well. Will then sell the 25 mm ones.


What is his reasoning? How in the world do tires have anything to do with a bike fitting, PLEASE EXPLAIN


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

The tires have NOTHING to do with the fitting. We both were not sure tire would fit. Since I would be getting a fitting, he figured bring down the tires/bottle cages/pedals/rear light and saddle bag. He would put it all on for me. We discussed when I pick up bike, I would ride out of shop. Do you realize (probably cuz you didn't read the thread) this thread, for me, has been about the tire width fitting the bike. Does it make any difference when I bring the tire down? He thought if it didn't fit, he would put the original back on for my ride. Seriously...he's not a moron.



Stumpjumper FSR said:


> What is his reasoning? How in the world do tires have anything to do with a bike fitting, PLEASE EXPLAIN


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

kps88 said:


> The tires have NOTHING to do with the fitting. We both were not sure tire would fit. Since I would be getting a fitting, he figured bring down the tires/bottle cages/pedals/rear light and saddle bag. He would put it all on for me. We discussed when I pick up bike, I would ride out of shop. Do you realize (probably cuz you didn't read the thread) this thread, for me, has been about the tire width fitting the bike. Does it make any difference when I bring the tire down? He thought if it didn't fit, he would put the original back on for my ride. Seriously...he's not a moron.


Yes I have read the thread and realize what its about, *you* are the one that brought up having the tires you would use on the bike when you get your fitting which makes no sense. I hope you enjoy your new bike!


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Stumpjumper FSR said:


> I had been extremely worried about fitting 25mm tires on my EVO. I am getting a fitting, the guy said to bring the tire and he would put it on before the fitting. he is a lbs wrench/manager. why in the world would anyone bring a specific tire to a bike fitting?? you asked a question in a rude manner. Those tires are already on the bike. those tires will be my tires for the bike. I am having my fitting friday and he already put the tires on. boom..done. Maybe the "and" confused you. I was just noting I have a bike fitting. 90% of the post was about the tire fitting.
> 
> You could have just noted if there was a reason why I would bring new tires to a fitting. but instead, you are just being rude. It makes no sense to you because you obviously didn't realize my issue with tire sizing.
> hope we are on the same page now.


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

......


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

kps88 said:


> Stumpjumper FSR said:
> 
> 
> > I had been extremely worried about fitting 25mm tires on my EVO. I am getting a fitting, the guy said to bring the tire and he would put it on before the fitting. he is a lbs wrench/manager. why in the world would anyone bring a specific tire to a bike fitting?? you asked a question in a rude manner. Those tires are already on the bike. those tires will be my tires for the bike. I am having my fitting friday and he already put the tires on. boom..done. Maybe the "and" confused you. I was just noting I have a bike fitting. 90% of the post was about the tire fitting.
> ...


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Stumpjumper FSR said:


> kps88 said:
> 
> 
> > I was not being rude, I only responded to what you wrote, perhaps you don't understand? As I said I hope you enjoy your new bike, case closed!
> ...


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

kps88 said:


> Stumpjumper FSR said:
> 
> 
> > I am amazed you still dont get it. I CLEARLY stated that the tires WERE ON THE BIKE ANDTHEY FIT. I just noted I had a bike fitting Friday. That had NOTHING AT ALL todo with my post. It had to do with my tires fitting my bike. Its YOU that doesnt understand and you probably do but just dont want to look stupid and say my bad..I misunderstood. Its no biggie, but dont act as if I am the one that doesnt understand. now, enough. no longer going to respond to you.
> ...


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

appreciate that. Thank you. I ran conti 4000s 25 mm last year. Really liked them. Heard the Pro4 may be a bit better in the handling and feel department. I'm so sick of winter. The roads are horrible around here and gravel/dirt everywhere. Hopefully the townships/boroughs and cities will do their street sweeping soon. Its a mess.



Stumpjumper FSR said:


> kps88 said:
> 
> 
> > I realize your excited getting your new bike but CALM DOWN, I'm really not trying to give you a hard time.
> ...


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