# Stage 3 - Raodioshack tactics



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

After watching yesterdays stage 3, I came away not understanding RS's tactics when Armstrong flatted.

The situation before the flat was as follows:

- lone rider in lead (Not GC contender)
- Chase 1 included Scheck, Evans, Cancellera & Thor and a few others totalling about 10 riders
- Chase 2 had Armstrong, Contador, Vinekurov, Wiggens, Menchov, there were 25 or so riders in this group. They were approx 1:20 back from chase 1

all of the strong GC teams were represented in these 2 chase groups

- Chase 3 was a larger group which included 5 Radio Sshack riders (Popovich, Leipheimer, Kloden, Horner & Brajkovic). This group was about 60 or so riders & was about 1:25 back from chase 2.

The situation immediately after the flat.

- Because of the support rules around the narrow roads, there were no support vehicles until after Chase group 3. In addition, because the team cars were in order of the highest ranked team member, the Radioshack car was well back in the line. Hence Lance fell a minute or more behind chase 3. Brunyeel, (presumably) sent Popo back to assist Armstong in chasing back up to the group.

So here is what I don't get. Why only send Popovich back? I realize that they may still consider Leipheimer a GC contender, but they had 3 other guys besides him and Popovich still available. It seems to me that the more they send back, the less effort Armstrong has to expend to get back on (Plus you don't burn out Popovich), and the quicker he gets back on. In addition, when they do get back on, they now have 6 riders to drive the group chase of Chase 2. (Presumably, they were the only team with motivation to chase since all the other major teams except them had riders in Chase 1 or Chase 2).

So why only send Popovich?

Possible answers:

- Bruyneel screwed up
- Armstrong isn't the team leader
- They had already given up on chasing down chase group 2 & were trying to minimize their losses
- Other??????

So help me out here. I don't get just sending one guy back and allowing your Team Leader to expend so much energy getting back on (and taking extra time), and then not leading the chase of the group with your Team Leaders biggest rivals in it. It took so much energy and time for Armstrong to get bvack to group 3, no real chase of Group 2 ever happened.

Educate me, because the more I think about it, the worse the tactics seem.

Len


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Len J said:


> After watching yesterdays stage 3, I came away not understanding RS's tactics when Armstrong flatted.
> 
> The situation before the flat was as follows:
> 
> ...


Popo and Lance were always ahead of Leipheimer, Kloden and Brajkovic (who all had flats too, apparently).


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

That was not the situation. Armstrong and Popo where in chase 2 together. The other Shack riders were not in Chase 3, but rather farther back. Jani crashed w/ F Schleck. The first rider to reach Lance was Rast, who gave him his tire. Popovych waited, and the rest was what was seen on TV. Kloden had a mechanical before any of this happened and was very far back.

EDit: what 55x11 ssaid


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Popo and Lance were always ahead of Leipheimer, Kloden and Brajkovic (who all had flats too, apparently).


No.....they were not...watch the tape. after the flat, Lance fell behind all of them.

len


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

That's what I thought too. Lance and he were in Chase 2, Popo looks around and doesn't see Lance, so he waits as the group goes by and then helps Lance get back as far as he can. Admittedly, I saw this on VS, so don't have all the details, but I never saw Armstrong ride past all the RS team and you'd think they would have sure put in the effort to stay with him, if he had come from behind them wouldn't you?


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

gegarrenton said:


> That was not the situation. Armstrong and Popo where in chase 2 together. The other Shack riders were not in Chase 3, but rather farther back. Jani crashed w/ F Schleck. The first rider to reach Lance was Rast, who gave him his tire. Popovych waited, and the rest was what was seen on TV. Kloden had a mechanical before any of this happened and was very far back.
> 
> EDit: what 55x11 ssaid


look at who is in the group that Lance latches onto after the flat...it includes the 4 other radioShack members I mentioned.

Look at how they all finished.....are you suggesting that they all chased back and caught Lance?

Watch the tape.

len


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

Also if your in any doubt about armsrtong is still leader, all you have to do is take a look at his positioning in his team paceline..the leader is usually where he is sitting now, 2nd last wheel, the guy behind in known as the gatekeeper [think rear gunnar]


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

muscleendurance said:


> Also if your in any doubt about armsrtong is still leader, all you have to do is take a look at his positioning in his team paceline..the leader is usually where he is sitting now, 2nd last wheel, the guy behind in known as the gatekeeper [think rear gunnar]


Then why only send one rider back?

Len


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

The boys on Versus stated that Lance fell behind everyone, including Chavanel, but I don't think that's what really happened. What 55x11 said is what really went down.

edit: Lance was isolated until the very end. and finished in Cav's group as the lone Radioshack guy.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

wiz525 said:


> The boys on Versus stated that Lance fell behind everyone, including Chavanel, but I don't think that's what really happened. What 55x11 said is what really went down.


I DVR'd it and palyed it back & forth. What I described is where they were before the flat and after the flat. What 55X11 wrote is incorrect.

How do you explain that the group he latched onto after he chased back included Klodin, leipheimer, Horner, & brajkovic otherwise? Look at how they finished.

Len


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## slamy (Mar 15, 2004)

What I can't figure out is how poorly Radio Shack was in equipment choice. I read Cadel this morning talking about how important the tires, wheels, bikes and gears were studied before this stage. I know there is bad luck out there, but it seemed that most of Radio Shack's favorites suffered from mechanicals. Personally I'm surprised with as important of a stage as this was, that they weren't better prepared for it.


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## 1313 (Feb 5, 2008)

LA was in the 2:08 group. Levi and crew finished in the 2:25 group. LA and Popo were in front of the rest of the team when he flatted.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

*fully agree*



slamy said:


> What I can't figure out is how poorly Radio Shack was in equipment choice. I read Cadel this morning talking about how important the tires, wheels, bikes and gears were studied before this stage. I know there is bad luck out there, but it seemed that most of Radio Shack's favorites suffered from mechanicals. Personally I'm surprised with as important of a stage as this was, that they weren't better prepared for it.


I fully agree. This wasn't luck playing out against LA and Radio Shack, this was LA playing with luck and he lost. Deep dish wheels are not suitable for cobbles - just cause they work in flanders doesn't mean they will in roubaix. Guess what, all cobbles are not the same. Go figure. La has also never, ever lined up for Roubaix, but neither has conti, but look at their wheels. LA was on deep dish and he got a replacement wheel from the one team mate who does have some time on roabaix roads and what was he riding - box section spoked wheels. Aero wheels do you no good unless you get there without a change and that's not what happened in LA's case. Sure it was a flat and not a broken wheel, but I would bet a lot that a box section wheel wouldn't have had the same effect.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

ronderman said:


> LA was on deep dish and he got a replacement wheel from the one team mate who does have some time on roabaix roads and what was he riding - box section spoked wheels. Aero wheels do you no good unless you get there without a change and that's not what happened in LA's case. Sure it was a flat and not a broken wheel, but I would bet a lot that a box section wheel wouldn't have had the same effect.


Weren't Thor and Fabian on deep dish wheels, though? I could be wrong, and correct me if I am, but from this picture ...


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

Len J said:


> I DVR'd it and palyed it back & forth. What I described is where they were before the flat and after the flat. What 55X11 wrote is incorrect.
> 
> How do you explain that the group he latched onto after he chased back included Klodin, leipheimer, Horner, & brajkovic otherwise? Look at how they finished.
> 
> Len


Go back and watch again. There were three RS riders together when Schleck hit the deck. Popo LA and Jani. Jani went down, and LA and Popo went right through. All other RS riders were behind at that point. LA flatted with only he and Pop riding together, right as the tree blocked the view. You see Popo come out, with no LA. He then waits till Rast catches, and off they go. Kloden had a mechanical way before all of this, he even said so himself via twitter, and in interviews.

55x11 is correct.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

There was an interview with Armstrong after the stage saying that he took G. Rast's wheel after he flatted to get him on his way and that took ~45sec. I have no idea how close the rest of the team was at that point, He ended up with only 17 seconds on the group that the majority of the team (Levi, Kloden, Popo, JB, Horner) with Horner leading that pack to the line. So that group seemingly made quite a bit of time on the group that Armstrong finished with in the last 10k.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

*zipp 202*



jptaylorsg said:


> Weren't Thor and Fabian on deep dish wheels, though? I could be wrong, and correct me if I am, but from this picture ...


They're carbon wheels, but I would say they aren't deep dish. Both of them are on zipp 202s which are like 130mm and LA was on some bontragers that are deep dish and like 150mm. I will say this, the 202s seem to be race-proven in roubaix. So they are not some aluminum box section wheels, but they aren't deep dish. Even poppo wasn't on deep dish, I have no idea why LA did that especially given his talk about testing equipment - it just doesn't play into how he does things.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

gegarrenton said:


> Go back and watch again. There were three RS riders together when Schleck hit the deck. Popo LA and Jani. Jani went down, and LA and Popo went right through. All other RS riders were behind at that point. LA flatted with only he and Pop riding together, right as the tree blocked the view. You see Popo come out, with no LA. He then waits till Rast catches, and off they go. Kloden had a mechanical way before all of this, he even said so himself via twitter, and in interviews.
> 
> 55x11 is correct.


Nope.

Watch when Armstrong catches the group after he drops Popovich. Count the number of RadioShack jerseys in that group....you will find that there are 4 besides him. 

Len


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

I didn't watch the stage close enough to comment on who was where when it all went down.

Other than Rast and Popo are there really that many guys on RS's Tour team that could have helped Lance in this situation? Levi, Horner, and Janz aren't exactly built for the cobbles (Horner has a great quote about why he doesn't ride PR). Kloden is a maybe, but definitely not ideal for the pave (he finished with Levi). 

I just wonder how much a part team make up played. They built a team to protect LA in the mountains (which is obviously the smart move), and maybe just didn't have the horsepower on the pave to chase much when things went bad. 

Classy ride by Lance yesterday, classy comments at the finish too.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

Len J said:


> Nope.
> 
> Watch when Armstrong catches the group after he drops Popovich. Count the number of RadioShack jerseys in that group....you will find that there are 4 besides him.
> 
> Len


Just did. No RS riders? Couple Garmin, couple Lampre (including Petacchi) Cofidis. LS solos from Popo to that group, riding amongst the cars.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

slamy said:
 

> What I can't figure out is how poorly Radio Shack was in equipment choice. I read Cadel this morning talking about how important the tires, wheels, bikes and gears were studied before this stage. I know there is bad luck out there, but it seemed that most of Radio Shack's favorites suffered from mechanicals. Personally I'm surprised with as important of a stage as this was, that they weren't better prepared for it.


If Cadel knows so much about tire choice, why did he flat in the crucial mountain stage at last year's Vuelta which cost him the overall?


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

gegarrenton said:


> Just did. No RS riders. Couple Garmin, couple Lampre (including Petacchi) Cofidis. LS solos from Popo to that group, riding amongst the cars.


I'm talking about the big group he catches, where he goes over to the right gutter to move up in that group, not the small groups he catches as he is chasing...there were riders all over the road. look in the front middle.

len


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't remember who was where, when and I didn't tape it. I can speculate that there was only one guy dragging LA back to the field because on that kind of course one person is all you probably want/need. Cobbles aren't conducive to typical paceline riding. Basically, you want one person to pace you who can give you a wheel/bike if you need it. Eventually, though, it looked to me like Popo either ran out of gas or couldn't supply the pace LA wanted so he took off on his own to pull back some time.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

slamy said:


> What I can't figure out is how poorly Radio Shack was in equipment choice. I read Cadel this morning talking about how important the tires, wheels, bikes and gears were studied before this stage. I know there is bad luck out there, but it seemed that most of Radio Shack's favorites suffered from mechanicals. Personally I'm surprised with as important of a stage as this was, that they weren't better prepared for it.


Cobbles are always a crap shoot..........where you ride (Peak where it is chattery as hell = fewer flats, gutters = more flats)....where you are when someone has a problem & what you have to ride into to avoid it.........as well as just luck. I'd suspect that there weren't many riders out there yesterday that didn't have at least one mechanical........and I'd almost guarantee that there was no team immune to them.

Watch Paris-Robuix sometime, it's an equipment nightmare. It takes a combination of luck and skill to win.

len


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it? The Petacchi group is the one he finishes with. What km to go are you looking at?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Opus51569 said:


> I don't remember who was where, when and I didn't tape it. I can speculate that there was only one guy dragging LA back to the field because on that kind of course one person is all you probably want/need. Cobbles aren't conducive to typical paceline riding. Basically, you want one person to pace you who can give you a wheel/bike if you need it.


I'm sure Andy would agree, Cancellara was only there as a wheel boy


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

gegarrenton said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it? The Petacchi group is the one he finishes with. What km to go are you looking at?


I looked at it last night, I'm at work and don't have the tape, so I can't say waht KM it was.

Len


PS. If what you are saying were true, then after chasing back and making up over a minute on the Petacchi group, a group which made no time up on the Chase 2 (Contador) group , Yet, he only finished 17 seconds ahead of the Horner group. That would imply that the Horner group made up a significant amount of time up in the last 7 K or so.............That seems unreasonable if RS was the only team motivated to chase (which they were). What I saw on the DVR last night was Armstrong caught the large Horner group , and then on the last set of Cobbles, a smaller group including pettachi & Armstrong, split from the large group and finsihed 17 seconds ahead of them.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

It seemed really noticeable to me how LA was getting bucked around on his bike while Contador looked much smoother. I was also thinking the deep dish wheels were not a good choice. I don't recall what wheels Contador was riding. Maybe LA thought he needed every advantage he could get not realizing he took it too far.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

What I just watched a few minutes ago, LA caught the exact group he finished with by himself. Cavendish in there, Petacchi, et al. The group with Horner and LL came through a few seconds later.


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## slamy (Mar 15, 2004)

fornaca68 said:


> If Cadel knows so much about tire choice, why did he flat in the crucial mountain stage at last year's Vuelta which cost him the overall?


Who knows. I'm not sure what a Mnt stage has to do with cobbles. Cobbles are a whole different element then a random puncture on a MNT. This really is a stupid comment.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Len J said:


> Nope.
> 
> Watch when Armstrong catches the group after he drops Popovich. Count the number of RadioShack jerseys in that group....you will find that there are 4 besides him.
> 
> Len


you sure that aren't Cofidis riders?


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## 1313 (Feb 5, 2008)

The Horner/RS group that was just behind LA included Basso, Rogers, Gesink, Sastre, Rodriguez, etc, so yes they were also motivated in the last 7km.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Len J said:


> Watch Paris-Robuix sometime, it's an equipment nightmare. It takes a combination of luck and skill to win.


and a hidden motor in the seat tube :thumbsup:


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

jnbrown said:


> It seemed really noticeable to me how LA was getting bucked around on his bike while Contador looked much smoother. I was also thinking the deep dish wheels were not a good choice. I don't recall what wheels Contador was riding. Maybe LA thought he needed every advantage he could get not realizing he took it too far.


I ride a Specialized Roubaix. The thing really does live up to it's advertising. It is smoother over the rough stuff. I'm not a Specy fanboy nor trying to sell the Roubaix. I have other bikes, on the rough stuff, I want the Roubaix.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*i would be the only dork in the TdF*

I would be the only dork in the TdF riding flat-proof tires, like the bontrager hardcase race lites. but hey, i am a dork who always rides on flat-proof tires.

the weight difference is a bit less than a half pound.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

PJay said:


> I would be the only dork in the TdF riding flat-proof tires, like the bontrager hardcase race lites. but hey, i am a dork who always rides on flat-proof tires.
> 
> the weight difference is a bit less than a half pound.


take the cobbles at 50km/h after a 200km ride on them and let us know how they feel.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

den bakker said:


> take the cobbles at 50km/h after a 200km ride on them and let us know how they feel.


And show everyone how flat-"proof" they are.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

pretender said:


> And show everyone how flat-"proof" they are.


some of them have no air in them..... (well bubbles but no single air compartment)


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## slamy (Mar 15, 2004)

jd3 said:


> I ride a Specialized Roubaix. The thing really does live up to it's advertising. It is smoother over the rough stuff. I'm not a Specy fanboy nor trying to sell the Roubaix. I have other bikes, on the rough stuff, I want the Roubaix.



I guess this article says it all. It just seems to me that Saxo was ready for this stage. 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/teams-bring-out-the-classic-gear-for-stage-3-cobbles


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

den bakker said:


> I'm sure Andy would agree, Cancellara was only there as a wheel boy


No, FC was there to pace Andy through...and also get back in yellow


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

here, all the tactical details and positions at stage 3: http://blog.oregonlive.com/horner/2010/07/tour_de_france_stage_3_chris_h.html


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Opus51569 said:


> No, FC was there to pace Andy through...and also get back in yellow


so make up your mind is it a benefit or not? How about the rather long pieces between the cobbles? The ones where e.g. Evans pulled or where Andy pulled?


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

sokudo said:


> here, all the tactical details and positions at stage 3: http://blog.oregonlive.com/horner/2010/07/tour_de_france_stage_3_chris_h.html


Yep. Read that last night, and the vid confirms that, just watched from crash to end. If you look at the wreck, Lance and Popo squeeze through while Jani gets a bit hung up, then slides in with Horner and Levi. Go to minute 158 ( about Km 16.9 to go) and you can see Lance flat as he goes under the tree with Popo riding on oblivious for about 10 seconds or so. The Contador group with Levi go by and Levi flats at that exact moment, can't see Jani in there handing the wheel over, but per Horner's blog, I guess that is what happened. About minute 160 (16.1 km to go), you can see the group coming through, with Pop on the shoulder, and Lance streaking up through the middle, all other RS members gone by now. As mentioned, Kloden out long ago. Lance and Pop then hook up with Cofidis rider for a few, till LA drops all of em and charges solo to Petacchi group


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## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

Hey Len, could you be confuse w/ BMC riders? They do wear similar colors jerseys and I get a little confuse sometime until the camera zoom in a bit. Like most, I too taught that Rast, Popo, and LA were well ahead of rest of the RS. My understanding was LA was 20 to 30 seconds ahead of Conti group, which gaining on LA. Then the flat happened. LA got in between group 3 and 4. Group 4 was the rest of RS. Group 3 which LA caught up with. Group 2 was Conti. This was the way I saw it, could be wrong though.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

WAZCO said:


> Hey Len, could you be confuse w/ BMC riders? They do wear similar colors jerseys and I get a little confuse sometime until the camera zoom in a bit. Like most, I too taught that Rast, Popo, and LA were well ahead of rest of the RS. My understanding was LA was 20 to 30 seconds ahead of Conti group, which gaining on LA. Then the flat happened. LA got in between group 3 and 4. Group 4 was the rest of RS. Group 3 which LA caught up with. Group 2 was Conti. This was the way I saw it, could be wrong though.


I find myself confusing the RS/BMC jerseys too.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

gegarrenton said:


> Yep. Read that last night, and the vid confirms that, just watched from crash to end. If you look at the wreck, Lance and Popo squeeze through while Jani gets a bit hung up, then slides in with Horner and Levi. Go to minute 158 ( about Km 16.9 to go) and you can see Lance flat as he goes under the tree with Popo riding on oblivious for about 10 seconds or so. The Contador group with Levi go by and Levi flats at that exact moment, can't see Jani in there handing the wheel over, but per Horner's blog, I guess that is what happened. About minute 160 (16.1 km to go), you can see the group coming through, with Pop on the shoulder, and Lance streaking up through the middle, all other RS members gone by now. As mentioned, Kloden out long ago. Lance and Pop then hook up with Cofidis rider for a few, till LA drops all of em and charges solo to Petacchi group


I guess I'm wrong....it still doesn't explain how there was more than a 1:30 gap from the Petacci group to the Horner group when Armstrong got back on his bike (If armstrong made up an over 1:15 gap and the Horner group never passed him), the petacchi group doesn't lose any time to the hard charging Contador group & the Horner group only ends up 17 seconds behind the petacchi group (a group that assuming you are right that Armstrong was in a group they were chasing, had no teams driving the chase of that group)...it makes no sense that they would pick up that much time in the last 10K.

One thing is certain, the television coverage of that carnage was not terrific. :blush2: 

len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

il sogno said:


> I find myself confusing the RS/BMC jerseys too.


It's certainly possible, but it doesn't explain the final time gaps.

Len


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

jnbrown said:


> It seemed really noticeable to me how LA was getting bucked around on his bike while Contador looked much smoother. I was also thinking the deep dish wheels were not a good choice. I don't recall what wheels Contador was riding. Maybe LA thought he needed every advantage he could get not realizing he took it too far.


Conti for the most part, rode the crown of the road. Lance was all over the place, going from side to side, trying to catch the dirt shoulders.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

Len J said:


> I guess I'm wrong....it still doesn't explain how there was more than a 1:30 gap from the Petacci group to the Horner group when Armstrong got back on his bike (If armstrong made up an over 1:15 gap and the Horner group never passed him), the petacchi group doesn't lose any time to the hard charging Contador group & the Horner group only ends up 17 seconds behind the petacchi group (a group that assuming you are right that Armstrong was in a group they were chasing, had no teams driving the chase of that group)...it makes no sense that they would pick up that much time in the last 10K.
> 
> One thing is certain, the television coverage of that carnage was not terrific. :blush2:
> 
> len


Well, Basso et al were in that (Horner)group, so I imagine they were absolutely charging hard as all get out. Levi literally flatted right by Lance, so I think that is where the confusion is coming from. They had just come up to Lance as he fell off the group in front with the puncture, where Popo is looking back wondering where the hell Lance went, and then jani has to ditch his wheel to levi (this part is lost in a cutaway apparently), so there was nobody in front to come back and help other than Popo, unfortunately. I don't see where it would be very out of this world for an entire group to come up to within 17 seconds of Pettachi's when Lance was able to solo the same gap by himself plus the extra 17 seconds (with help from Popo I will add).

I think the coverage suffered from ill timed cutaways, and lack of on the road cameras once the field had become soooo split. Oh well. Still a good watch in general I think!


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Which group*

Len, I am at the office, too, but I watched it twice last night and I do not see what you see.

I see Lance working with Popovych (only) after taking Rast's wheel off-camera, dropping Popo, and catching up with that sprinter group ahead. Those Cofidis kits looked a lot like RS ones to me, I had to look twice.

I never saw Lance riding near Leipheimer, Kloden, etc, after all of the madness started. They appeared to be always behind him.

I will look again tonight at the moment of the catch, I remember it specifically, when the officials pull out the cars that Lance is drafting off of, and he makes the junction on his own, breathes a bit, then moves up in that group.


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## atown117 (Dec 1, 2008)

ronderman said:


> They're carbon wheels, but I would say they aren't deep dish. Both of them are on zipp 202s which are like 130mm and LA was on some bontragers that are deep dish and like 150mm. I will say this, the 202s seem to be race-proven in roubaix. So they are not some aluminum box section wheels, but they aren't deep dish. Even poppo wasn't on deep dish, I have no idea why LA did that especially given his talk about testing equipment - it just doesn't play into how he does things.



Those look like 303's to me.


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## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

atown117 said:


> Those look like 303's to me.


They do look like 303 to me too


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