# Quitting



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

So what is this new thing in professional cycling where if you are not on your best form at a race, you just withdraw? I understand if someone is suffering from a serious injury that they don't want make worse, but there seems to be more than that going on here. It's like you don't ride through anything anymore. Does this bother anyone else?

Van Garderen Hits The Reset Button After A Tough Spring | Cyclingnews.com

Chris Froome withdraws from Liege; Rui Costa, Joaquim Rodriguez, Andy Schleck abandon - VeloNews.com

This is a little different since he has already raced so much and performed at a high level, but why did they start him in the race anyway then???

CyclingQuotes.com Kwiatkowski: It was a time to stop and recharge betteries


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

It this new? 

Sometimes rest is better than pushing through, especially if someone is sick, injured, overtrained, or just has a lot of bad luck. I know I've done it, ie skipping the P1/2 race after suffering like a dog in the 35+


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

I guess its new if you never followed cycling.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

Mario Cipollini anyone?


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

It's not that I am saying it is new, what I am saying is that it seems to be happening more frequently. When you contrast it with the fact that just a few years ago the cycling community was celebrating how Hoogerland (and others like him) toughed it out and carried on to finish a stage (stage 9 of the 2011 TdF) with legs that had been shredded by barbed wire, it just seems like right now the sport is starting to place more emphasis on rider recovery, specialization, and being in peak condition than on toughness and going after it every time you line up (even on really difficult days). It's the apparent shift and frequency I am interested in discussing, not a suggestion that this has never happened before.

Johnny Hoogerland stitched up after stage 9 crash - VeloNews.com


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

This shift you are talking about happened in 1990s. 

It depends on the rider. A franchise rider who is preparing for the tour will not risk himself for anything other than the tour. 

A domestique who who needs to stay in the race to provide support or he loses his contract has a little more motivation. 

These earlier races (classics not included) are pretty meaningless to most of the peleton. If they aren't feeling it or have been dropped no reason to keep going.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Beats the trend a few years ago where everyone who showed up at Giro was "training" for TdF...and no one was really racing.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Rashadabd said:


> It's not that I am saying it is new





> So what is this new thing in professional cycling where if you are not on your best form at a race, you just withdraw?


If you follow upper level cycling (amateur cats 2-5 don't count) then you will see that riders do what is *best for the team*. If that means quitting a race, to rest and recover for another day, when they can be of no help to the rest of the team, they're out of contention for the win or not in need of points then, if it is in their best interest, they may quit. I would imagine the team manager plays a major part in this decision.

Now that the racing season is much longer and riders' condition at the start of the year is much higher, any extra rest is probably going to be beneficial to the team.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Thank Mike, I could see that. It's just interesting that they let them start anyway. It seems like with all of the testing these guys do, the DS would know where a particular racer is at before they start a stage or two.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Thank you for the input, but it's not completely accurate. Romandie in particular is a critical part of many GC contenders plans. So much so, that the last few winners of the TdF have also won Romandie. It's why Froome and Nibali are here putting in serious work. 

CyclingQuotes.com Tour de Romandie preview


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> If you follow upper level cycling (amateur cats 2-5 don't count) then you will see that riders do what is *best for the team*. If that means quitting a race, to rest and recover for another day, when they can be of no help to the rest of the team, they're out of contention for the win or not in need of points then, if it is in their best interest, they may quit. I would imagine the team manager plays a major part in this decision.
> 
> Now that the racing season is much longer and riders' condition at the start of the year is much higher, any extra rest is probably going to be beneficial to the team.


For the record, it's not that I'm saying the phenomenon is new, it's the frequency that I am saying is new. There seems to be a trend toward calling it when you are not in contention even if the race is an important one on your calendar or when you have some nagging type of injury, but I guess it could be that these things started in the 1990s as others say.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Rashadabd said:


> Thank Mike, I could see that. It's just interesting that they let them start anyway. It seems like with all of the testing these guys do, the DS would know where a particular racer is at before they start a stage or two.


I'm sure there are many variables - and probably training within a race is better than training outside of a race. With the levels that teams are at (think Sky with their "marginal 1% gains") I would think *everything* they do is in the best interests of the team as a whole whether we understand it or not. If not, they would fix it.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Rashadabd said:


> For the record, it's not that I'm saying the phenomenon is new, it's the frequency that I am saying is new. There seems to be a trend toward calling it when you are not in contention even if the race is an important one on your calendar or when you have some nagging type of injury, but I guess it could be that these things started in the 1990s as others say.


I'll bet everything the teams do, since the '90s days, is different. Hard men of the past like Maertens, Kelly, Hinault, Merckx etc would have a hard time relating but teams' thinking and goals is much different than back then.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> I'll bet everything the teams do, since the '90s days, is different. Hard men of the past like Maertens, Kelly, Hinault, Merckx etc would have a hard time relating but teams' thinking and goals is much different than back then.


 You are probably right man. I guess it makes things like what Hoogerland did 2011 that much more impressive.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

One of the things that helped Chris Horner at the Vuelta last year was the fact that he didn't have a full season of racing behind him. He didn't have the deep set fatigue common in the peloton at the end of the season.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Rashadabd said:


> So what is this new thing in professional cycling where if you are not on your best form at a race, you just withdraw? I understand if someone is suffering from a serious injury that they don't want make worse, but there seems to be more than that going on here. It's like you don't ride through anything anymore. Does this bother anyone else?
> 
> Van Garderen Hits The Reset Button After A Tough Spring | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> ...


It's their job. 

Things are different when you do it to pay the bills. It's not just for fun, it's for your food and shelter and everything else.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

runabike said:


> It's their job.
> 
> Things are different when you do it to pay the bills. It's not just for fun, it's for your food and shelter and everything else.


What is funny is you could turn that statement around and back up the exact opposite viewpoint.

Of the 150-200 who show up to race most will not win ever. What most are doing is making their sponsor happy by getting their jersey on camera. As a sponsor, I'd be ticked if the guys I was paying millions to represent my brand were just quitting a race. Especially someone like say, Andy Schleck, who hasn't won a race in over a year and in recent memory has DNF'd as many races as he's started to my memory...all for what? Not for wins....and certainly not to help anybody else win.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I get the strategy behind it, but I also see the OPs point. Perhaps part of what seems so strange about it, is that we don't have a lot of other examples in other sports. Football and basketball on occasion, if a game is well in-hand...

Imagine if all sports adopted this strategy...


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## yongkun (Aug 9, 2010)

Nobody will want to quit the biggest stage race in the world


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Opus51569 said:


> Imagine if all sports adopted this strategy...


Actually lots of sports do.
Baseball pitchers are often rested instead of using them in unimportant games. Same with quarterbacks. Throwing arms have limits.
Hockey players are benched if they have been over-used/given too much icetime. Very common for defencemen who take a lot of physical abuse to take a few games off to recover. And a tired goalie is no good...they need to be fresh and alert. So they get switched in and out too.

There's no point in Sky running Porte into the ground when he is sick in the spring. All that does is make him less fit for the Tour. If the guy is suffering and finishing well down in the field he isn't acheiving anything anyway.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Actually lots of sports do.
> Baseball pitchers are often rested instead of using them in unimportant games. Same with quarterbacks. Throwing arms have limits.
> Hockey players are benched if they have been over-used/given too much icetime. Very common for defencemen who take a lot of physical abuse to take a few games off to recover. And a tired goalie is no good...they need to be fresh and alert. So they get switched in and out too.
> 
> There's no point in Sky running Porte into the ground when he is sick in the spring. All that does is make him less fit for the Tour. If the guy is suffering and finishing well down in the field he isn't acheiving anything anyway.


I was thinking of more ridiculous examples:

Track and field... Bolt out in front so every other sprinter pulls up and walks off the track to save it for another day. No sense potentially pulling a hammy if it's not the Olympics...
NASCAR... races are dangerous, and cars are expensive, better to park it in the pits if you're not going to win...

As I said, I understand the strategy and god knows I probably couldn't finish a leg of a stage race.


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

Hardmen are still out there. Look at Ted King at last year's Tour. Dude could barely ride, but he still went out there and tried to beat the time limit.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Opus51569 said:


> I was thinking of more ridiculous examples:
> 
> Track and field... Bolt out in front so every other sprinter pulls up and walks off the track to save it for another day. No sense potentially pulling a hammy if it's not the Olympics...
> NASCAR... races are dangerous, and cars are expensive, better to park it in the pits if you're not going to win...
> ...


But see its does happen those sports, runners will ease up it they are not going to advance or even in the final if they are not going to medal if there is no reason to push. In motorsport of you running in 7th and you can't catch 8th you maintain that position and don't burn the motor up trying to catch 8th.

In cycling people sit up all the time in the finish when they can't score (even the hard men. If your sick or injured and there is not reason to ride (no team need support no position to defend) your kinda dumb to straggle along at the back of a early season race only to **** yourself for the rest of the season. 

When you look at examples like Hoorgerland or Hamilton continuing in the tour when injured you looking at guys with tons of form riding in their season goal, there the rules change. 

Add to all that the team structure and the way riders are paid and developed has changed ALOT from back in the day.


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## JStrube (Dec 19, 2013)

Hinault quit the TDF while wearing the yellow jersey in 80, right?... It happens.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

It's harder to dope nowadays. Now they have to take breaks, rather than injections. :thumbsup:


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

eh, pro cyclists are softie athletes, not exactly known for their will power.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Marc said:


> What is funny is you could turn that statement around and back up the exact opposite viewpoint.
> 
> Of the 150-200 who show up to race most will not win ever. What most are doing is making their sponsor happy by getting their jersey on camera. As a sponsor, I'd be ticked if the guys I was paying millions to represent my brand were just quitting a race. Especially someone like say, Andy Schleck, who hasn't won a race in over a year and in recent memory has DNF'd as many races as he's started to my memory...all for what? Not for wins....and certainly not to help anybody else win.


Not really. 

This is a long term viewpoint. A single race isn't much in the context of a season (save for le Tour), especially when talking about a guy like Andy Schleck who has much bigger fish to fry on a much bigger stage. 

What's the point of him suffering through a race he has no chance to do well in? If the legs aren't there then the head isn't there. Training would be much more specific and useful and you can get back to training much sooner. Plus you cut out the whole risk of racing to begin wih.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Opus51569 said:


> I was thinking of more ridiculous examples:
> 
> Track and field... Bolt out in front so every other sprinter pulls up and walks off the track to save it for another day. No sense potentially pulling a hammy if it's not the Olympics...
> 
> ...


Not a good example for Track and Field. 

Runners at all distances will ease up and take it as easy as possible to get through rounds. 

And they absolutely will pull out if they don't have optimal conditions/conditioning when there's a bigger race coming up. 

Just check out Galen Rupp and many of the other US stars.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

32and3cross said:


> When you look at examples like Hoorgerland or Hamilton continuing in the tour when injured you looking at guys with tons of form riding in their season goal, there the rules change.
> 
> Add to all that the team structure and the way riders are paid and developed has changed ALOT from back in the day.


Well put.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

runabike said:


> Not really.
> 
> This is a long term viewpoint. A single race isn't much in the context of a season (save for le Tour), especially when talking about a guy like Andy Schleck who has much bigger fish to fry on a much bigger stage.
> 
> What's the point of him suffering through a race he has no chance to do well in? If the legs aren't there then the head isn't there. Training would be much more specific and useful and you can get back to training much sooner. Plus you cut out the whole risk of racing to begin wih.


Except for the past year Andy (for example) has done professionally squat. All his DNFs and recovery time haven't given any ROI at all. Not on a big stage, not on a small stage. Not on any stage.

And moreover, there's more to a race than the G.C. I honestly don't understand the tunnel-vision over it. All it tells you is who did not **** up that much, and had a team of "helpers" to keep that rider out of trouble.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

JStrube said:


> Hinault quit the TDF while wearing the yellow jersey in 80, right?... It happens.


Knee injury. He was not "taking it easy" or saving it for another day.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Some Doms are asked to go really deep in early sections of classics and then retire. Have them go full on in a chase or trying to blow up the group, and when the blow, call it a day. No reason soft pedaling 50 miles, save it for another race.
For GC Honch's if they don't have it, going on can hurt later races.
Always been that way


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Knee injury. He was not "taking it easy" or saving it for another day.


Rodriguez and Costa were both hurt too, hence their quitting. Rodriguez had some pretty bad ribs from a crash in Amstel Gold, and then crashed again in Fleche Wallone. Costa went down in a crash during the race in L-B-L and abandoned.

Now Schleck's another story entirely. I just don't think his heart's in it anymore, and so he just doesn't want to make the hard efforts, or endure the suffering anymore. When it starts to hurt, he quits.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

rufus said:


> Rodriguez and Costa were both hurt too, hence their quitting. Rodriguez had some pretty bad ribs from a crash in Amstel Gold, and then crashed again in Fleche Wallone. Costa went down in a crash during the race in L-B-L and abandoned.
> 
> Now Schleck's another story entirely. I just don't think his heart's in it anymore, and so he just doesn't want to make the hard efforts, or endure the suffering anymore. When it starts to hurt, he quits.


Guessing this is Andy's last season on a WT team. Frank seems to be showing some potential still.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Rashadabd said:


> It's not that I am saying it is new, what I am saying is that it seems to be happening more frequently.


I'd put "seems" in bold. Unless you have actual data to show a statistically significant difference between current day and some time in the past, all you're doing is stating an unfounded opinion. Given all the sources of bias, for all we know, riders could be dropping out less frequently now than before, but you just don't perceive it that way.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

asgelle said:


> I'd put "seems" in bold. Unless you have actual data to show a statistically significant difference between current day and some time in the past, all you're doing is stating an unfounded opinion. Given all the sources of bias, for all we know, riders could be dropping out less frequently now than before, but you just don't perceive it that way.


Look, I'm not writing a book or trying to get a grant for a study man. I am obviously just guessing and talking about cycling, so no need for scientific research here. Seriously????


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I do think there could be some merit to the thought that we might be seeing the ffects of having a cleaner peloton. Nobody knows for sure, but I could see us entering an era where there are less spectacular finishes and where pros need more time for recovery because more pros are riding completely clean. It's an interesting though...


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Marc said:


> Except for the past year Andy (for example) has done professionally squat. All his DNFs and recovery time haven't given any ROI at all. Not on a big stage, not on a small stage. Not on any stage.
> 
> And moreover, there's more to a race than the G.C. I honestly don't understand the tunnel-vision over it. All it tells you is who did not **** up that much, and had a team of "helpers" to keep that rider out of trouble.


Yet he has the experience and the professional support around him to know what's going on. His past results speak for themselves (and of his drug use...), and he has the leeway to do what he does now because of those results in anticipation of similar results in the future. 

So it comes down to what he and his support staff think versus what you think. And frankly, I imagine their experience and know-how is superior.

Now maybe it's all for naught and he's washed up and done. Still, he's currently riding on past results and the experience he had in getting those results. That's still a pretty big deal.


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