# someone's in trouble for causing the tumble!



## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

very blatant, what will the punishment be?


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

asciibaron said:


> very blatant, what will the punishment be?


I'm not so sure Cav will be punished for that


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Amazingly blatant...I wanted to slap Phil for thinking for even an instant out loud that that was a wheel touch.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

roddjbrown said:


> I'm not so sure Cav will be punished for that


He's gotten fined/relegated for much less. And that was deliberate and completely unnecessary.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

He has indeed and it won't help his cause that he said in an interview he expected there to be elbows in today's sprint. I could be proven wrong - nobody can predict a commissaire - but I think they'll see that as accidental


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

It looked like the other rider slowed down and turned to look to see where Kittel was.
At the same time Cav is launching his sprint and accelerating.
Cav didn't bump him intentionally. It looked like the other rider moved in front of Cav.

Seriously, do you think Cav would knock down someone he is going to pass anyway?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> It looked like the other rider slowed down and turned to look behind him.
> At the same time Cav is launching his sprint and accelerating.
> Cav didn't bump him intentionally. It looked like the pther rider moved in front of Cav.
> 
> Seriously, do you think Cav would knock down someone he is going to pass anyway?


In the overhead, I'm 95% certain the other rider was holding his line....it was cav who deviated into him.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Fair enough Marc.

I don't think it was intentional and I don't think it was blatant.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Not sure what Cav was thinking. It's not like he didn't know he was there... When the heat is on, he turns into a complete D-Bag. Now cue the comments of how he is such a tough competitor bla bla bla... he wins bla bla bla...


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe not 95% but from the overhead I'd say Veelers drifts right as Cav starts to go


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

The crash was certainly Cavendish's fault but I do not think it was intentional. 

Bad stage finish. It was really weird and I couldn't tell the stage was over until after they crossed the line. I was still looking for the line after they crossed it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Whether it was intentional or not doesn't matter for a relegation. Cavendish clearly hooked him and put a shoulder into him while deviating from his line - the overhead shows it pretty well. 



thechriswebb said:


> The crash was certainly Cavendish's fault but I do not think it was intentional.
> 
> Bad stage finish. It was really weird and I couldn't tell the stage was over until after they crossed the line. I was still looking for the line after they crossed it.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

thechriswebb said:


> The crash was certainly Cavendish's fault but I do not think it was intentional.
> 
> Bad stage finish. It was really weird and I couldn't tell the stage was over until after they crossed the line. I was still looking for the line after they crossed it.


After watching it a few more times, I have to agree. Not a hater, I love watching that kid sprint, but that was not smart riding IMO.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Cav's clean; Veelers clearly drifted right. Look at the white pavement stripes.

Can't blame Cav for tucking his shoulder to absorb the incoming blow, and it's not Cav's responsibility to go even further right to avoid collision; not even sure he had the time to make that judgement call anyway.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> Whether it was intentional or not doesn't matter for a relegation. Cavendish clearly hooked him and put a shoulder into him while deviating from his line - the overhead shows it pretty well.


I understand that. It has less to do with judgement of him for relegation purposes and more to do with judgement of whether or not he is an a$$.


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## alegerlotz (Feb 8, 2013)

It looked to me like the guy he punted moved toward him first and hit his wheel (from the overhead view). It seemed to me he punted him as retaliation. Who knows...


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

How many of you people have actually ever made contact with another rider while in a full-out sprint?

Or, ever been in a full-out group sprint?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

I'd like to hear Roberto Ferrari's take on this...he's been in a full-out group sprint.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I have, and I understand the rules enough to know that the rule is about changing 'lanes' in a sprint, not one's line (and Veeler's wasn't 'launching a sprint' so not even applicable). Veelers moved about a foot to the right (drifting, not an abrupt move) and Cav's shoulder is way over his bike well before contact anticipating contact. Cav tried to come around him earlier on the left - which is the only winnable move since the corner was a left one (right was the long way around) then moves back. 

He had already lost the sprint at that point, and it's plausible he was frustrated at Veelers and put a shoulder into him. Veelers was on the hoods and wasn't ready for the impact. Or he was desperate to move left to get on Kittel's wheel and took a dangerous line into Veelers 







Creakyknees said:


> How many of you people have actually ever made contact with another rider while in a full-out sprint?
> 
> Or, ever been in a full-out group sprint?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


> How many of you people have actually ever made contact with another rider while in a full-out sprint?
> 
> Or, ever been in a full-out group sprint?


i have been in a full-out group sprint - it was a crit in the summer of 1992 in Chambersburg, PA - the sprint was for one of the four beer preems - a case of Rolling Rock, on ice.

the race was boringly plain and man was it hot and humid. most people realized winning a case of beer and dropping out was a better idea than actually finishing the race.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

*We see what we first want to believe...*



Creakyknees said:


> Cav's clean; Veelers clearly drifted right. Look at the white pavement stripes.
> 
> Can't blame Cav for tucking his shoulder to absorb the incoming blow, and it's not Cav's responsibility to go even further right to avoid collision; not even sure he had the time to make that judgement call anyway.


Absolutely not seeing reality here^. Yes, please look at the white pavement stripes as well as the left shoulder snapping out like he was throwing a left jab 

...but "seeing" it otherwise is being human...as we all start with a bias that distorts what's real. I'm as guilty of that as the next.

I do think Cav has had a bad time of it dealing with the pressure. A cascade of things from his total meltdown at the bus, tail wagging over the mountains, strong competition with the Germans as well as the Hulk along with the daily reminder that the green is gone and his train into the line is foreign and missing a few cars. 

You could tell in the interview with his gal Peta Todd that she was on a campaign to "smooth" it all over before the stage. She did an outstanding job, very well spoke. She'll be spending more time with the press me thinks.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Creakyknees said:


> How many of you people have actually ever made contact with another rider while in a full-out sprint?
> 
> Or, ever been in a full-out group sprint?


In hindsight, that sounds snarky but that's not what I meant. What I meant was, **** happens fast, you don't get time to think over options, and every rider (at that level) has been trained and practiced (PLENTY!) in managing "contact". 

My guess was, Cav lowering his shoulder is instinctual, not deliberate - just like you or I would do if we were standing there and something comes flying at you out of nowhere. It's the natural reaction of an experience cyclist anticipating incoming contact, and the correct reaction too for self-preservation.

I place fault on Veelers for deviating from his line, whether intentional or not it was Veelers who moved. Especially as a ProTour leadout guy he knows well what happens behind him when he lets off the gas, and he clearly looked behind him TWICE before moving into Cav's line.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> In hindsight, that sounds snarky


Since when have we apologized for snark here?


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

How big is a "lane" in a sprint? 

To me, Veelers is peeling to the right and Cav made a huge move to the right to get around him and then he just cuts left and gives him a huge shoulder bump. There is no doubt that Cav MADE the contact that caused Veelers to fall.

I think Cav is ticked off: 



> 5.20pm BST Mark Cavendish gets a wee bit chippy ...
> In an impromptu post-stage press conference, he says "there are things [his team] could have done better but we'll talk about that later." Moments later, a member of the scrum of reporters asks him if the crash was his fault and Cavendish stares him down, says "was the crash my fault?", snatches the reporter's Dictaphone out of his hand and returns to his team bus.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you need to look at about 1:00 on - Cav sees Kittel on the left and moves into Veelers hard. There was tons of space to pass him - he's way over his bike to make contact and is moving hard toward him. 




[VIDEO] Mark Cavendish headbutts and causes BIG crash in Tour de France Stage 10 - YouTube





Creakyknees said:


> In hindsight, that sounds snarky but that's not what I meant. What I meant was, **** happens fast, you don't get time to think over options, and every rider (at that level) has been trained and practiced (PLENTY!) in managing "contact".
> 
> My guess was, Cav lowering his shoulder is instinctual, not deliberate - just like you or I would do if we were standing there and something comes flying at you out of nowhere. It's the natural reaction of an experience cyclist anticipating incoming contact, and the correct reaction too for self-preservation.
> 
> I place fault on Veelers for deviating from his line, whether intentional or not it was Veelers who moved. Especially as a ProTour leadout guy he knows well what happens behind him when he lets off the gas, and he clearly looked behind him TWICE before moving into Cav's line.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

From what I saw and heard, the rider drifted slightly to the right. That is obvious to see. What I heard them saying at the same time was the road was bending left at the same spot as the crash. So yes, Cav was holding his line through a turn as the rider was drifting to the side. Unfortunate for Cav that he went around that side. Result was a sprinter who knows how to take getting bumped making contact with a leadout man who was smoked and in the Red zone seeing double. He wasn't prepared for contact, thus went down like a fat kid on a ham sandwhich. There wasn't that much contact, so it leads me to believe he was barely gripping the bars as he was decelerating. A little contact and boom. 

On a unrelated note, Cav lost the sprint because he was sitting on the wheel of a leadout man who had done his job and was slowing down. Bad choice on his part. Maybe Kittel or Greipels wheel would have been a smarter choice.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

_That's racing. _


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

That was BS from Cavendish.


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

Looked like the Argos rider was drifting in front of Cavendish's line. Cavendish had to move over. Throwing the elbow was unnecessary but Cavendish was probably pissed off and just being Cavendish. I like it. Makes good entertainment. More elbow rubbing please. Like they say in Nascar, if it ain't rubbing, it ain't racing.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

A little should bumping is different than taking out someone's bars and steering them into the ground.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> Cav's clean; Veelers clearly drifted right. Look at the white pavement stripes.
> 
> Can't blame Cav for tucking his shoulder to absorb the incoming blow, and it's not Cav's responsibility to go even further right to avoid collision; not even sure he had the time to make that judgement call anyway.


This is how I see it, too.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Regardless of fault looks like Cav can't keep his cool even after the whole thing is over.

Cavendish Defends Actions In Tour De France Sprint | Cyclingnews.com

Video of Cav grabbing the reporters recorder
https://vine.co/v/h76bmVrBJwm


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

Veelers is a gassed leadout guy. He's not contesting the sprint, so yeah he's gonna drift off like all the other leadout guys do. Cavendish was on the wrong wheel and on the wrong side of the road and when he tried to compensate for both those mistakes he put someone on the pavement.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

Cav takes another rider out.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

JackDaniels said:


> Veelers is a gassed leadout guy. He's not contesting the sprint, so yeah he's gonna drift off like all the other leadout guys do. Cavendish was on the wrong wheel and on the wrong side of the road and when he tried to compensate for both those mistakes he put someone on the pavement.


Its not so simple as "drift off" when you're inside 200 meters and you know Cav is on your wheel. Veelers looked back TWICE and he knew damn well Cav was on his wheel, it's my contention that Veelers intentionally "drifted" right into Cav, thereby deviating from his line. It's a classic move by leadout guys everywhere to slow down whoever's behind you. 

Had Veelers held a straight line, Cav would have passed cleanly.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

From twitter

William Fotheringham ‏@willfoth 54m 
Just found Jean-Francois Pescheux, who told me that in the comm's' view, Veelers was at fault because he was coming back in the sprint


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

from twitter / Official Mark Cavendish:

"Can all sprint experts on twitter go & try flicking their bike right at 65kph without leaning your body left to balance & come back to me."


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Bunch sprints are crazy and that finish was a mess. After watching it a few times, I think that the usual standard for line deviation is difficult to apply here. Also, something I have learned over time with bunch sprints is that things are not always as they appear. 

I wager that the better part of opinions about what happened there are reflexive of each individual's pre-established opinion of Cavendish.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

I have a slightly different take than any I've seen posted so far. It looked to me like Veelers was trying to get out of the way of the action after his leadout. He first drifted slightly to the left just as Cav was making a move around him to the left. Veelers seemed to see Cav and made a small move to the right. Cav, having been rebuffed on the left, was now making a move to the right on a left curve, and was really motoring. Some contact was inevitable at that point. Cav was prepared for it and Veelers wasn't. Having said all that, I'm surprised Cav wasn't relegated.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

if anything Veelers was moving right because he knew the right line for a sprinter was up the left. Also, he only moved right about a foot while Cav veered right and then cut back left right into him. Cav moves a lot more than Veelers. It was dangerous riding.

For all the talk about drifting right, if you watch the rest of the sprint Kittel later makes a hard right move to go around the gassed Lotto rider, and moves Cav right as well. Cav has to move right because it's the rider in behind that will get taken out with these moves (the way Ferrari took out Cav)- front wheel always loses out when it contacts a rear wheel. If Veelers really blocked Cav by hooking him, Cav would be the one on the ground. 




Creakyknees said:


> Its not so simple as "drift off" when you're inside 200 meters and you know Cav is on your wheel. Veelers looked back TWICE and he knew damn well Cav was on his wheel, it's my contention that Veelers intentionally "drifted" right into Cav, thereby deviating from his line. It's a classic move by leadout guys everywhere to slow down whoever's behind you.
> 
> Had Veelers held a straight line, Cav would have passed cleanly.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> from twitter / Official Mark Cavendish:
> 
> "Can all sprint experts on twitter go & try flicking their bike right at 65kph without leaning your body left to balance & come back to me."


-i don't buy it. cav can deal with a sprint finish without falling over sue to loosing balance.

--like others, i see veelers look back; i think veelers moved to 'pick' cav - and it was a good move - not too abrupt, cav had plenty of time to react, etc. - but another detail is that cav saw daylight opening up in front of him just in front of veelers, if only he could cross in front of veelers - loo at the overhead again and imagine cav taking a line from R to L across the front of veelers - looks possible if only for one human, but cav is that human, but veelers boxes out cav, and veelers guy wins the sprint.

well played veelers.


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## gusmahler (Apr 7, 2012)

Veelers clearly veers to the right



















[/QUOTE]


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

gusmahler said:


> Veelers clearly veers to the right


Yes, using the white line for reference it is obvious.
I think Veelers wanted to box Cav in, or slow him down in the corner.
All this happens in seconds. From Cav's point of view, he sees Veelers drifting into him from the right and pushes back.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

Wow, Cav doesn't deal with criticism well at all.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

JackDaniels said:


> Cavendish was on the wrong wheel and on the wrong side of the road


It's happened a few times, even in the intermediates. Cav needs to get his mojo back.


Cinelli 82220 said:


> I think Veelers wanted to box Cav in, or slow him down in the corner.


I think Veelers was trying to get out of the way. 

Again, that's racing. 

This is a good "non call" by the commies.


EDIT: 
I just watched it again. Veelers swung left, Cav started to move around to the right, then Vellers came back over to the right.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

notice how leaned over Cav's bike is - it looks like he oversteered and almost went down and then smacked Veelers...


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

asciibaron said:


> notice how leaned over Cav's bike is - it looks like he oversteered and almost went down and then smacked Veelers...


Are we watching the same thing? Cav tried to pull around the right and then swing back into the draft of Kittel and Griepel but he cut too severely and clipped Veelers. 

If anything they are both to blame. Cav could of missed him completely and Veelers could of stayed a little more on line.


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## tylerwal (Jul 28, 2011)

Controversal Finish to Stage 10 (2013/tour-de-france)

look @ 1:25, you can clearly see Cav blatantly causing the wreck


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## Old Man (Apr 8, 2012)

I see it as a wrong place at the wrong time accident... At impact Cav's left leg had just turned to BDC and his weight would have been causing left momentum, bike used as counter balance to the right. He braced for impact on left and the would be simple shoulder bump was exaggerated because all is weight and momentum was taking him left. What started this was Veelers move to the right..


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> Its not so simple as "drift off" when you're inside 200 meters and you know Cav is on your wheel. *Veelers looked back TWICE and he knew damn well Cav was on his wheel, it's my contention that Veelers intentionally "drifted" right into Cav, thereby deviating from his line. It's a classic move by leadout guys everywhere to slow down whoever's behind you. * *Had Veelers held a straight line, Cav would have passed cleanly.*


^^^^This.^^^^This.^^^^This.^^^^This. Veelers drifts from the LEFT of the white line to the RIGHT of it while the road itself was bending left and left is where Cav was heading and where Veelers should have himself been going. Cav saw him coming and fended him off. That's how it was and that's how the judges saw it. They've relegated Cav for much less and if there was a grey area they would have done it this time too.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Looking closely at the video linked by stevesbike, I now believe the fault lies entirely with Veelers. The overhead view on the video doesn't show enough of the action, so one has to look at the front view starting at 0:44 sec. Veelers can be seen to the right of line. Cav can't be seen at that point, because he's on Veelers's wheel. 
View attachment 283800


At 0:45 sec Cav's WC stripes are just visible.
View attachment 283805

At 0:47 sec Veelers has moved to white line and is looking back at Cav. Kittel has come off of Cav's wheel blocking an further advance by Cav on that side.
View attachment 283806

At 0:48 Veelers is well left of the line, Cav is openly moving back to the right to find clean air.
View attachment 283807

At 0:50 sec Cav has moved all the way back to the right an gone past Veelers, who now is once again well to the right of the line. Although we all saw Cav lower his shoulder, it is plausible that Veelers went down moments later due to the sonic boom.
View attachment 283808


JSR


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

JSR said:


> At 0:48 Veelers is well left of the line, Cav is openly moving back to the right to find clean air.
> View attachment 283807
> 
> At 0:50 sec Cav has moved all the way back to the right an gone past Veelers, who now is once again well to the right of the line. Although we all saw Cav lower his shoulder, it is plausible that Veelers went down moments later due to the sonic boom.
> ...


Case closed.


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## flyrunride (May 2, 2012)

Sonic Boom FTW!!! :thumbsup:


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

thanks, this sort of shows what everyone needs to see. Using white lane as reference, Veelers is clearly crossing to his right, the first two guys (Kittel and Greipel) move to the left.

I am of the opinion that this stuff routinely happens. They run shoulders, and once in a while someone goes down.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Cavendish is the most relegated and fined sprinter in a long time. Every year, he's involved in an ugly incident and is relegated/fined. He's the only rider I know of that the entire peloton staged a mass protest against (5th stage of 2010 Tour de Suisse) after he caused one of the worst crashes in a long time (and was found responsible for it).

Veelers didn't do anything wrong. There is no rule against his moving right. Cavendish had lots of room to get by him but cut back too soon to try to get on Kittel's wheel after taking the wrong line.

The comment on the screenshot is wrong at 50. Cav is not past him - he's veering back into him, which is clear on the overhead. 



55x11 said:


> thanks, this sort of shows what everyone needs to see. Using white lane as reference, Veelers is clearly crossing to his right, the first two guys (Kittel and Greipel) move to the left.
> 
> I am of the opinion that this stuff routinely happens. They run shoulders, and once in a while someone goes down.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

Just a racing accident from all the pressure to win at any cost. Winning over thinking in my opinion. Anybody saying it was on purpose just nonsense.


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

Not everyone thought it was Cav's fault. I certainly can accept why Cav leaned left like he did.

"Race Jury president Vicente Tortajada Villaroya cleared Cavendish and blamed it on Veelers for losing his concentration and looking down. The riders behind Veelers who'd had to swerve to avoid him, like Australian Matt Goss, badmouthed him to the press."


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

If it had been a big crash (or Veelers seriously hurt) and Cavendish had taken the stage I think there would have been some repercussions.


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## TheSingleGuy (Feb 20, 2009)

JSR said:


> Looking closely...
> 
> JSR


And all this with just a single bullet!


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> Cavendish is the most relegated and fined sprinter in a long time.


I guess how long ago is a long time is a matter of interpretation. I'd say that Robbie McEwen was involved in WAY more argey-bargey than Cavendish. The great ones seem to always be the arge-ER rather than the barge-EE.



> Veelers didn't do anything wrong. There is no rule against his moving right. Cavendish had lots of room to get by him but cut back too soon to try to get on Kittel's wheel after taking the wrong line.


No, but moving left then right when you're at the pointy end of a bunch sprint is very bad form. Some on this thread have suggested that Veelers was using creative license as a spent lead out man, but my initial impression was that he was looking for a place to hide, hence the moves left and right. He may have been trying to do the right thing, but it turned out wrong.



> The comment on the screenshot is wrong at 50. Cav is not past him - he's veering back into him, which is clear on the overhead.


Yes, you're right. It might be more correct to say that he had come off Veelers's wheel and was quickly accelerating by him. With Veelers moving all over the road and an upcoming left curve I don't think Cav can be blamed for asserting himself as he did.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

D*ck.

The little sh*t isn't worth the air-time.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

TheSingleGuy said:


> And all this with just a single bullet!


LOL! I am in no way related to Mr. Zapruder, but I do admire his work.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

tylerwal said:


> Controversal Finish to Stage 10 (2013/tour-de-france)
> 
> look @ 1:25, you can clearly see Cav blatantly causing the wreck


I like this video the best. It shows it head on and how Cav had an outrageous amount of room. I think he was frustrated with Veelers (obvious from the post stage press comments) and just took him down. Sure, Veelers could of stay more to the left but if Cav was trying to get behind Kittel and Greipel in their draft he would still have to cut off Veelers because he went to the wrong side.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

As others have said " that's racing", and what an incredible race it is!

High stakes and great competition makes for an awesome race, loving every stage so far. Love him or hate him Cav makes it interesting, win or lose.


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## ksauers (Sep 3, 2012)

This sounds just like the old nascar and the racing is pretty much the same. cav= earnhardt sr.
the same love him or hate him crash causin and win at all costs. lol


I;m a newbe and this is the first time I've ever been interested in watching the TDF. the course is pretty amazing.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

I see it as "it happens" and won't hate on either of them. However, I think that in similar circumstances in which Cavendish hits the road, he's placed blame on another rider; maybe he'll keep this in mind next time he's the one who gets the short end of the stick.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> Its not so simple as "drift off" when you're inside 200 meters and you know Cav is on your wheel. Veelers looked back TWICE and he knew damn well Cav was on his wheel, it's my contention that Veelers intentionally "drifted" right into Cav, thereby deviating from his line. It's a classic move by leadout guys everywhere to slow down whoever's behind you.
> 
> Had Veelers held a straight line, Cav would have passed cleanly.


I've seen this in a lot of sprints - the lead-out guy should peel off and go far-left - instead he goes a tad left, then drifts back "accidentally" blocking an opposing sprinter forcing them to slow and/ or find an alternate route. I suspect this is exactly what happened here - if I was Cav, I would have decked him as well!
Seems the commissars saw it the same way. :thumbsup: Good non-call.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Cav had room on the right but the road was turning left

Veelers didn't lead out Kittel, he was sitting 3rd. When Kittle started to jump after Griepel Veelers slows and starts going right. You are 3rd in a frigging bunch sprint you hold your frigging line unless passing, this isn't 1K from the finish. 
I wouldn't doubt if it was intentional to slow Cav down and give Kittel a better shot.

Anyone who thinks this was Cavs fault has never sprinted nor rode on a track


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

atpjunkie said:


> Cav had room on the right but the road was turning left
> 
> Veelers didn't lead out Kittel, he was sitting 3rd. When Kittle started to jump after Griepel Veelers slows and starts going right. You are 3rd in a frigging bunch sprint you hold your frigging line unless passing, this isn't 1K from the finish.
> I wouldn't doubt if it was intentional to slow Cav down and give Kittel a better shot.
> ...


It's the same thing in relays. The runner handing off the Paton must stay in his lane, or else he's interfering with all other racers. It's the same here, the lead out man should not be looking back (which causes him to veer) and he should be keeping his line. Let the remaining sprinters go around you.

It's racing, but definitely not Cav's fault.


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> Anyone who thinks this was Cavs fault has never sprinted nor rode on a track


Yup... try to keep going straight at full throttle!

I see a racing incident and as with any racing incident, there's some amount of misjudgment or blame on both parts.

Both Veelers and Cav could have done much better. Fortunately all of them are fine to race another day. I'm surprised it did not become a pile up. There were some riders in Veelers wake.


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## garbec (Mar 3, 2006)

He needs a proper lead out.... He's making a point to his team at the expense of the other sprinters teams...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> D*ck.
> 
> The little sh*t isn't worth the air-time.


You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and aren't worth the time it took to type this. 

How's that?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> you need to look at about 1:00 on - Cav sees Kittel on the left and moves into Veelers hard. There was tons of space to pass him - he's way over his bike to make contact and is moving hard toward him.
> 
> 
> Generally you post pretty good stuff, well thought out, mostly right on the mark.
> ...


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Creakyknees said:


> Cav's clean; Veelers clearly drifted right. Look at the white pavement stripes.
> 
> Can't blame Cav for tucking his shoulder to absorb the incoming blow, and it's not Cav's responsibility to go even further right to avoid collision; not even sure he had the time to make that judgement call anyway.


It is completely cav's fault for not using the ample road space to ride around Veelers. Doesn't matter if he drifted a foot or whatever. Cav was absolutely responsible to avoid a collision (?!!) instead he darted straight for Kittel's wheel, straight through Veelers.



Local Hero said:


> _That's racing. _


BS. If someone took me down that blatantly I'd be waiting for him with a police officer or a tire iron.

]


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

davidka said:


> It is completely cav's fault for not using the ample road space to ride around Veelers. Doesn't matter if he drifted a foot or whatever. Cav was absolutely responsible to avoid a collision (?!!) instead he darted straight for Kittel's wheel, straight through Veelers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You clearly don't pay attention nor have the experience to comment on this either. There is no way the contact was made w/ the intent of crashing Veelers. You can't get away w/ that stuff anymore at races of this level w/ the whole world watching. People that haven't ever been involved in a sprint of any kind, much less one as important and fast as this shouldn't even comment. If you've even raced at all, especially on the track you'd know that if contact is likely you lean into it, not move away from it. Veelers was sketchy as hell as soon as he pulled up and was probably sh*tting himself trying to get out of the way. Goss had some prime words for him after the stage. He (Veelers) needs to figure out how to stay on line when he's done his job and not cause problems like he did today.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Contact happened because Cav chose to make it happen, no other reason.

I've been racing for 30 years but thanks for playing. If you're willing to accept being assaulted like that then that's your prerogative.
Riding through a man that's between you and the wheel you want is not acceptable in any form of racing, at any level.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

davidka said:


> Contact happened because Cav chose to make it happen, no other reason.
> 
> I've been racing for 30 years but thanks for playing. If you're willing to accept being assaulted like that then that's your prerogative.
> Riding through a man that's between you and the wheel you want is not acceptable in any form of racing, at any level.


No bid deal, i know lots of guys that have raced for a long time and still don't get it. I'm sure they'll welcome you to the club w/ open arms.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

QUOTE=cxwrench;4401815]No bid deal, i know lots of guys that have raced for a long time and still don't get it. I'm sure they'll welcome you to the club w/ open arms.[/QUOTE]

"Get" it? WTF are you talking about? There is nothing to get here. Veelers didn't brace for an impact because he rightly didn't expect one. There was plenty of road to ride around him. 

Like I said, if you'd accept a guy taking it to you like that then great, you're a very tolerant person I guess. I would make sure that rider never made that choice ever again which is what the race referees should have done today.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

davidka said:


> QUOTE=cxwrench;4401815]No bid deal, i know lots of guys that have raced for a long time and still don't get it. I'm sure they'll welcome you to the club w/ open arms.


"Get" it? WTF are you talking about? There is nothing to get here. Veelers didn't brace for an impact because he rightly didn't expect one. There was plenty of road to ride around him. 

Like I said, if you'd accept a guy taking it to you like that then great, you're a very tolerant person I guess. I would make sure that rider never made that choice ever again which is what the race referees should have done today.[/QUOTE]

So you are saying they got it wrong? After placing the blame on Cav numerous times in the past, they viewed many replays from more than one viewpoint, over and over again, and somehow managed to blow it? Many, many pro's that were there and others that saw what we saw see it as the race referees did. They have publicly placed the blame on Veelers. There is no pressure on them to do that. They have no favorites or villains like most forum users do. That would seem to put you in the same category as the other armchair race officials that don't understand how contact in racing works. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

davidka said:


> BS. If someone took me down that blatantly I'd be waiting for him with a police officer or a tire iron.


So you're a tough guy who would want revenge for what many accept as an unfortunate accident. But how would you decide between bringing a cop or a weapon?


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> No bid deal, i know lots of guys that have raced for a long time and still don't get it. I'm sure they'll welcome you to the club w/ open arms.


For having so many bikes, you sure are a dick.


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## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

Veelers tried some subtle blocking moves and Cavendish p*ssed off......got too much payback, or not, anyway that's how it goes sometimes.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

davidka said:


> It is completely cav's fault for not using the ample road space to ride around Veelers. Doesn't matter if he drifted a foot or whatever. Cav was absolutely responsible to avoid a collision (?!!) instead he darted straight for Kittel's wheel, straight through Veelers.


Then why did race officials blame Veelers instead of Cav? What do you know that they don't? 

Cavendish said yesterday, "All I do is follow the road..._There will be internet forums with people going mad_ about it but I follow the road, I'm not going to hit the barriers. You can see he moves a little bit right, I move a little bit left...It's not like I took his wheel, I'm following the road...It was the arms that touched anyway..."

Cavendish said that the Tour de France organisers are partly to blame. "The road is going left. Make it a straight sprint [if you don't want any incidents]."

What you can't see in the overhead video, and what Cav is talking about... the road bears left. Why did Veelers keep drifting right? It's obvious where the sprinters were going.. and where Cav (and everyone but Veelers) was following. 
View attachment 283844


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Cav was already off Kittel's wheel by then. If hitting Veelers was such a good move, why did he finish fourth? If he was so clearly in the right, why did he apologize to Veelers?

Some of you need to let a little air out of your tires.


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## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

tlg said:


> Then why did race officials blame Veelers instead of Cav? What do you know that they don't?
> 
> Cavendish said yesterday, "All I do is follow the road..._There will be internet forums with people going mad_ about it but I follow the road, I'm not going to hit the barriers. You can see he moves a little bit right, I move a little bit left...It's not like I took his wheel, I'm following the road...It was the arms that touched anyway..."
> 
> ...


Veelers is a good leadout man he knows anyone he forces to the right is sprinting for 3rd


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Cav had urine thrown on him in the following stage. Sad, although apparently
a reprecussion.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

phoehn9111 said:


> Cav had urine thrown on him in the following stage. Sad, although apparently
> a reprecussion.


The following stage would be todays ITT. Haven't heard about this yet. Where did you hear about it?

Sorry, found it in the live feed.
"13:40:32 CEST
Sadly there are confirmed reports that roadside spectators have thrown urine at Mark Cavendish during his time trial. We'll try and find out more."

WTF is wrong with people?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

jlandry said:


> The following stage would be todays ITT. Haven't heard about this yet. Where did you hear about it?


Velonews.com


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

JackDaniels said:


> For having so many bikes, you sure are a dick.


No he just doesn't coddle fools.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Fireform said:


> Cav was already off Kittel's wheel by then. If hitting Veelers was such a good move, why did he finish fourth? If he was so clearly in the right, why did he apologize to Veelers?
> 
> Some of you need to let a little air out of your tires.


Cav was never on Kittel's Wheel
It was Griepel, Kittel, Veeler and Cav
Veeler was most likely doing some blocking as J24 says. But he didn't lead out Kittel, he was behind him


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Both riders to blame: Cav had room to the right while Veelers was being spaztastic.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> You clearly don't pay attention nor have the experience to comment on this either. There is no way the contact was made w/ the intent of crashing Veelers. You can't get away w/ that stuff anymore at races of this level w/ the whole world watching. People that haven't ever been involved in a sprint of any kind, much less one as important and fast as this shouldn't even comment. If you've even raced at all, especially on the track you'd know that if contact is likely you lean into it, not move away from it. Veelers was sketchy as hell as soon as he pulled up and was probably sh*tting himself trying to get out of the way. Goss had some prime words for him after the stage. He (Veelers) needs to figure out how to stay on line when he's done his job and not cause problems like he did today.


I think his 'job' was creating a gap behind him

it's funny, we used to do these Tues AM Sprint work outs. I did a lead out for a guy in a corner sprint where I jammed us through the 2 lines stopping the inside guys from drifting wide (making them slow) and pinning the outside guys to the road edge. It was tight and fast and the move was so good I finished 4th as a leadout. (my sprinter took it handily)
All the sprinters in the group were talking about what an awesome move it was, most the other folks were chastising us for being reckless. different strokes

I've seen new guys on the track in the final lap blowing up and wanting to pull up track while a handful of guys are attempting to fly by in that space. "But I was gassed" HOLD!!!!!!


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I'm not a Cav hater but the fireworks are almost more entertaining when he loses. He blames the bike, his team, the race organizers--the list is long and he is nowhere on it.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> I think his 'job' was creating a gap behind him
> 
> it's funny, we used to do these Tues AM Sprint work outs. I did a lead out for a guy in a corner sprint where I jammed us through the 2 lines stopping the inside guys from drifting wide (making them slow) and pinning the outside guys to the road edge. It was tight and fast and the move was so good I finished 4th as a leadout. (my sprinter took it handily)
> All the sprinters in the group were talking about what an awesome move it was, most the other folks were chastising us for being reckless. different strokes


Right, if a leadout guy fades it makes sense for him to fade to the outside and open the door on the inside. But Veelers was all over the road, swinging left and then right. With that type of erratic riding it makes sense that Cavendish would try to make his move on the outside. 

Speaking of amateur racing--without video playback from several angles--isn't it tradition to just blame the guy who hits the ground?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

JackDaniels said:


> For having so many bikes, you sure are a dick.


What on earth does having a lot of bikes have to do w/ me understanding reality and calling out someone that obviously doesn't?


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## mtnroadie (Jul 6, 2010)

I feel really bad for Veelers he didn’t deserve to go down like that and when I first saw it my first reaction was … Damn Cav wtf! Nonetheless Veelers should not have relaxed like that not in that situation get out of the way, cross the finish line then you can relax.

My mantra for the sprints this year is…. Please anyone but Griepel!

Alas Cavendish is infallible. If he had lasers on his bike with which he deflated Griepels tires I would still forgive him. Just don’t touch Sagan that guy is awesome, he must sleep on a bed of boobies every night.

Getting doused with urine is going way way over board. Someone must have seen who the dirt bag who did this is. Someone must have him on film or a picture. I think some dookie on that idiots face is in order.

Looking forward to the Renshaw-Cavendish tag team in 2014!

Apparently Cav went off on a reporter after the stage, any video of that yet?


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## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> I think his 'job' was creating a gap behind him


/\ this /\


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, here is my argument in this. Just because you havent done a bunch of sprints at pro speeds doesnt mean you dont know what you are talking about. Should a judge commit murder so that they can punish a criminal? No, of course not so why do some advocate that people dont know crap because they havent done it is rather confusing.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I have enough of a clue about sprinting to know how little guys like Cav make it as sprinters and not to quote Taylor Phinney as an expert on sprinting. Greg Henderson was there and called out Cav for being unprofessional and making a mistake. Ironic that McEwen defended him, since they are both chippy little sprinters. It's the only way they can sprint against bigger guys. Cav made a reckless move and took down Veelers. Pretty simple. 5 seconds later, Kittel moved Cav right across the road. He was sprinting. Veelers wasn't. Big difference. As far as having a clue about sprinting, I learned that difference in about 1989 when I trained weekly with Ken Carpenter. 













cxwrench said:


> stevesbike said:
> 
> 
> > you need to look at about 1:00 on - Cav sees Kittel on the left and moves into Veelers hard. There was tons of space to pass him - he's way over his bike to make contact and is moving hard toward him.
> ...


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

mtnroadie said:


> Just don’t touch Sagan that guy is awesome, he must sleep on a bed of boobies every night.


You win at the internets. LOL


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

bballr4567 said:


> Well, here is my argument in this. Just because you havent done a bunch of sprints at pro speeds doesnt mean you dont know what you are talking about. Should a judge commit murder so that they can punish a criminal? No, of course not so why do some advocate that people dont know crap because they havent done it is rather confusing.


This applies to all sports. Track racing (think 4x1 relay), motorcycle racing etc. Hold your line and don't look back. Unless there's a reason to block like they do in F1, MotoGP for position (but backmarkers like Veeler in this case, doing it would be black flagged). The idea is that you hold your line and don't deter from it.

When your Veeler and you're all over the road, you cause accidents. If this was a track event, the whole team would be disqualified.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

> Greg Henderson was there and called out Cav for being unprofessional and making a mistake.


Shock, horror, gasp. Lead-out man on rival team (who himself went pretty "wide", but, at least didn't weave, on Stage 6) criticizes team's main competitor.

and subsequently back-tracked somewhat



> Dont get me wrong. @MarkCavendish is not a crazy sprinter. Never has been, never will be. He has speed. Today was a mistake by him IMO.


IMV, Veelers is lucky not to have been DQ'ed. for deliberately impeding the progress of a rival.

.. and Veelers has "form" e.g. the Farrar crash last year.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you might want to check out who was leading out the group before Henderson took over (hint, he was wearing a light blue jersey with Omega written on it) and where he moved when he was done... 




coldash said:


> Shock, horror, gasp. Lead-out man on rival team (who himself went pretty "wide", but, at least didn't weave, on Stage 6) criticizes team's main competitor.
> 
> and subsequently back-tracked somewhat
> 
> ...


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

stevesbike said:


> you might want to check out who was leading out the group before Henderson took over (hint, he was wearing a light blue jersey with Omega written on it) and where he moved when he was done...


Irrelevant. Did the rider in question set himself up as the absolute arbiter of what's right and wrong in sprinting? Henderson's comments cannot be regarded as neutral and he should make sure he is squeaky clean (no, not in that sense) before he judges others.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

bballr4567 said:


> Well, here is my argument in this. Just because you havent done a bunch of sprints at pro speeds doesnt mean you dont know what you are talking about. Should a judge commit murder so that they can punish a criminal? No, of course not so why do some advocate that people dont know crap because they havent done it is rather confusing.


That's a really poor analogy and shows that you do not understand the role of a judge. 

Judges spend most of their time and energy determining which attorney has a better legal argument. They decide make judgements on the law. The vast majority of judges were accomplished attorneys who demonstrated mastery of the law prior to their appointment. They are capable of determining which attorney has a superior argument because they know the law and have shown for years their own ability to make sound legal arguments.

Judges do a lot more than just punish criminals. And when they do punish criminals they often follow established guidelines (again, following the law). 

That said, it makes sense someone who has "been in the trenches"--whether as a sprinter or a lawyer--to have more insight than a keyboard warrior layman.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

actually, I was referring to one of Cav's teammates, who drifts right after pulling off - right across the road to shut down that side. Veelers drifts right a few seconds later, not as much, but to suggest he should be Dq'd because of it is silly. With the sprint into a left bend, it's the right direction to go and Cav made a mistake going right. He tried to correct it and moves left too hard and takes out Veelers. Kittel went left and won by taking the shortest route to the finish. I'm not saying Cav did something intentional, just that the crash was due to a mistake he made and a reckess move to correct it. 



coldash said:


> Irrelevant. Did the rider in question set himself up as the absolute arbiter of what's right and wrong in sprinting? Henderson's comments cannot be regarded as neutral and he should make sure he is squeaky clean (no, not in that sense) before he judges others.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

stevesbike said:


> actually, I was referring to one of Cav's teammates


I appreciate that and it doesn't impact on what I stated.



> Veelers drifts right a few seconds later, not as much, but to suggest he should be Dq'd because of it is silly.


Veelers "drift" looks completely premeditated. He has a good look round (twice), sees where Cav is, and then moves into Cav's path. Quelle surprise!!

In any event, the finish looked ill-conceived to me. The final bend was too close to the finish line (IMV) but I'm happy with the final result because I like to see some of the "smaller" teams get a stage win or two.


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## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm a total newb at racing or even watching the TdF for that matter, but it looks to me like it was Veelers' job to slow down and deflect the rocket just enough... And it seems to have worked.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

Yup yup yup and yup ... Everybody is right ... This is call racing. :thumbsup:


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

This was the second time a lead out man got in Cav's way (and the first clearly deviated from his line). I just think Cav was a bit pissed. Cav has done much worse in the past, and maybe that's why the commissars gave him a pass, he was being restrained, given his record. It's just that Veeler's wasn't a sprinter or at least not and experienced one and wasn't used to being pushed around a bit (seriously, most sprinters wouldn't have gone down). So like the Chinaman just said, this is called racing...


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

cxwrench said:


> So you are saying they got it wrong? After placing the blame on Cav numerous times in the past, they viewed many replays from more than one viewpoint, over and over again, and somehow managed to blow it?


Yes, they got it wrong. Looks like others agree that Cav was at fault:

Cavendish not welcome at post-Tour Dutch race after Veelers incident in stage 10



Local Hero said:


> So you're a tough guy who would want revenge for what many accept as an unfortunate accident. But how would you decide between bringing a cop or a weapon?


It wasn't an unfortunate accident. It was a reckless, dangerous decision, one that Cav has made several times in the past (remember him spitting on Haussler just after ending his season?). It'll happen again because he knows there will not be a great enough consequence for doing it.

Are you a guy who would just lie down and let someone assault you?


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

davidka said:


> Yes, they got it wrong. Looks like others agree that Cav was at fault:
> 
> Cavendish not welcome at post-Tour Dutch race after Veelers incident in stage 10



Dutch race
Dutch rider
I guess there's no bias there. Did you even read the article? It was their opinion which was against what the "jury" have decided. But you win for being oblivious.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

davidka said:


> Yes, they got it wrong. Looks like others agree that Cav was at fault:
> 
> Cavendish not welcome at post-Tour Dutch race after Veelers incident in stage 10


So what do you and the Dutch know that the TdF race officials don't know? Because they said it was Veelers fault. 
BTW... are you Dutch... like Veelers?



> Kitttel absolved Cavendish of responsibility, saying: "I cannot imagine that Cavendish did that on purpose, it just happens sometimes in a hectic finale.


 Who is that Kittel guy anyway? Hmmmmm


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I just watched the video again. 

The contact took place on Cav's side of the white line. 

If Veelers had held his line--either to the left of the white line or on it--there would have been no contact.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> That's a really poor analogy and shows that you do not understand the role of a judge.
> 
> Judges spend most of their time and energy determining which attorney has a better legal argument. They decide make judgements on the law. The vast majority of judges were accomplished attorneys who demonstrated mastery of the law prior to their appointment. They are capable of determining which attorney has a superior argument because they know the law and have shown for years their own ability to make sound legal arguments.
> 
> ...


You completely missed my point and I expected someone to come back with that argument. 

Regardless, the arguments of some on here are "you have never done it so you cant know possibly what its like" which is plain idiotic. Should a lawyer defend someone who sold 10 pounds of crack if they have never done it? Of course they will. How many of the race judges have never raced but know the difference between right and wrong?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

bballr4567 said:


> You completely missed my point and I expected someone to come back with that argument.
> 
> Regardless, the arguments of some on here are "you have never done it so you cant know possibly what its like" which is plain idiotic. Should a lawyer defend someone who sold 10 pounds of crack if they have never done it? Of course they will.


Your legal analogy is still nonsensical. Defense lawyers are not experts at selling crack. They don't need to be (and it's better if they are not). Lawyers are experts on the law.



> How many of the race judges have never raced but know the difference between right and wrong?


If someone wants to Monday Morning Quarterback it's better if they played quarterback--or at least football--at some time in their life. Otherwise their opinion may lack credibility and insight.


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## bballr4567 (Jul 17, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Your legal analogy is still nonsensical. Defense lawyers are not experts at selling crack. They don't need to be (and it's better if they are not). *Lawyers are experts on the law*.


As are the cycling judges that might not of been involved in cycling. 

Im just saying that some users are merely suggesting that just because they have raced that they know more about the subject than those that havent raced to the extent that they have. That is poor logic.


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## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)

Check out the sprint about two days before this. The one where cav got 3rd and Sagan got 4th. cav was all over the road and Sagan thought he was going to cut him off.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Go Cavendish!!!


AYHSMB!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Local Hero said:


> I just watched the video again.
> 
> The contact took place on Cav's side of the white line.
> 
> If Veelers had held his line--either to the left of the white line or on it--there would have been no contact.


and the reality is, that late in the game (Sprinters have already gone) leadout riders shouldn't be pulling over. You only change your line in a sprint (road or track) if you are passing


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

I wonder what Abdoujaparov do in that situation...


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

It is every rider's core responsibility to ride safely. Cav could see Veelers and had plenty of road to ride around. Veelers moved less than 2ft to his right- a tiny move by any standard. Cav rode across him to reach Kittel. Cav had every opportunity to stay to the right for another 20 meters but he chose to ride through Veelers to the wheel he wanted. If you can't see that, you're blind and so are the race judges (who are compelled to keep a star rider in the race).


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Veelers was drifting left, looked behind him, saw that Cav was coming on the right, drifted in front of him.

Seems pretty simple


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Veelers was drifting right a little, but the amount of drifting is typical to what any leadout man would do. It's very typical, and nothing dramatic and extreme. Cavendish, being a top sprinter himself, should know this all too well. 

To blame Veelers for the 2ft drift is ludicruous because then one would also need to start blaming every leadout man or men too.

What happened is that Cav was hell bent on bullying his way to breach across to Kittel, and it was already in his mind that he was going to bulldoze Veelers. 

Looking at the snapshot, one could see that Cav had well more than 1 meter between him and Veelers when Cav was already well on his way leaning into Veelers. Veelers' body language does not in anyway indicate that he was expecting Cav to sideswipe him (why should Veelers be? his drifting is typical stuff). And furthermore, there was plenty of room on the right for Cav to avoid Veelers; instead, she went right for Veelers. 

It was an easily avoid accident. But she is a full-tilt primadonna that Cav so she had to have things her way eh. The icing on the cake was when that punk shook his head afterward, as if he was all innocent and expecting the world to yield to his way.

View attachment 283975


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

there was some new footage shown on NBC that also shows Cav grit his teeth and brace for the hit well before contact is made - looks like he's preparing to hit Veelers. Certainly not consistent with the shoulder being the result of accidental contact.



aclinjury said:


> Veelers was drifting right a little, but the amount of drifting is typical to what any leadout man would do. It's very typical, and nothing dramatic and extreme. Cavendish, being a top sprinter himself, should know this all too well.
> 
> To blame Veelers for the 2ft drift is ludicruous because then one would also need to start blaming every leadout man or men too.
> 
> ...


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

stevesbike said:


> there was some new footage shown on NBC that also shows Cav grit his teeth and brace for the hit well before contact is made - looks like he's preparing to hit Veelers. Certainly not consistent with the shoulder being the result of accidental contact.


The head-on footage of the incident may be new to NBC but it was transmitted within a few minutes of the end of the stage and was available to the jury. 

The jury know the game (and the gamesmanship) and that is why using all of the evidence and their experience they said that if anyone was to blame for the incident then it was Veelers.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

stevesbike said:


> there was some new footage shown on NBC that also shows Cav grit his teeth and brace for the hit well before contact is made - looks like he's preparing to hit Veelers. Certainly not consistent with the shoulder being the result of accidental contact.


The snapshot above I got from Sporza network coverage. But in the same video, it can be seen right at the point of contact between Cav and Veelers, Cav quickly and decisively threw out his left elbow that hooked under the forearm of Veelers. I could not post the video because I don't know how to edit videos and I dont think you can post videos on RBR either. 

That was a dirty play. I supposed Veelers would need to keep a line straight as an arrow for the Cav jockers to see the light. Remember, this is the same Cav who defended one of his ex teammates (when they were on the same squad) for headbutting another guy during jostling for position in a sprint. If this **** was going on in a Socal crit, you can bet somebody will chop his wheel and put him down to teach him a lesson already.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

or at least throw their sunglasses at him...



aclinjury said:


> ...
> If this **** was going on in a Socal crit, you can bet somebody will chop his wheel and put him down to teach him a lesson already.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

stevesbike said:


> or at least throw their sunglasses at him...


let me guess you talking about the Rashan Bahatti incident??


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> The snapshot above I got from Sporza network coverage. But in the same video, it can be seen right at the point of contact between Cav and Veelers, Cav quickly and decisively threw out his left elbow that hooked under the forearm of Veelers. I could not post the video because I don't know how to edit videos and I dont think you can post videos on RBR either.
> 
> That was a dirty play. I supposed Veelers would need to keep a line straight as an arrow for the Cav jockers to see the light. Remember, this is the same Cav who defended one of his ex teammates (when they were on the same squad) for headbutting another guy during jostling for position in a sprint. If this **** was going on in a Socal crit, you can bet somebody will chop his wheel and put him down to teach him a lesson already.


LOL

It's true that the P1/2 crits in socal are intense events. Roger Millikan was pretty hectic: Roger millikan memorial crit 2013 Pro1,2 - YouTube

Rubbing is racing, especially in crits and socal is the crit mecca. For that exact reason there would not be any retaliation against a guy who did what Cav did in the final. Anyone who doesn't already hate the guy will chalk this up as "that's racing." 

aclinjury, how do you know so much about the rough and tumble socal crit racing? What category racer are you, 4?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> LOL
> 
> It's true that the P1/2 crits in socal are intense events. Roger Millikan was pretty hectic: Roger millikan memorial crit 2013 Pro1,2 - YouTube
> 
> ...


I'm not a consistent club racer because at 130 lbs I'm not going to win anything in a crit sprint. I have come to this realization, and that's that. I like road racing but road racing in the Socal scene like what, 1 race per month, not enough to even bother. Having said this, I know a lot of the crit guys around here, ride with them on the Saturday hammerfests, Irvine Great park, Colosium, Echo park, etc. There are a few (luckily very few) known self-proclaimed "pros" (you know, the pros who don't get paid but like everyone to acknowledge them as pros) whom and whose said teammates can be aholes. And when a d-bag incident happens, all the other teams know it, everyone talks about it. Usually there's a few old guys who play the enforcers, and these guys I respect because they don't take side (although they may belong to some teams). I think the general unwritten rule amongst the guys is that: if you lost a wheel of your rival because you were blocked by the rival's teammates, well that's just too bad for you, but you don't go chopping other people's wheels in attempt to jump back". Seen a few heated confrontation on- and off- the course because of this. Seen some really nasty shiat confrontation after a practice too, a practice! I equate the socal crit scene rules to playground basketball rules. You don't pull a dirty foul, because if you do, then expect payback. Playground rules; it's that simple. Personally I can't imagine being ostracized as aholes, but I guess that's what some guys are good at!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> I'm not a consistent club racer because at 130 lbs I'm not going to win anything in a crit sprint. I have come to this realization, and that's that. I like road racing but road racing in the Socal scene like what, 1 race per month, not enough to even bother. Having said this, I know a lot of the crit guys around here, ride with them on the Saturday hammerfests, Irvine Great park, Colosium, Echo park, etc. There are a few (luckily very few) known self-proclaimed "pros" (you know, the pros who don't get paid but like everyone to acknowledge them as pros) whom and whose said teammates can be aholes. And when a d-bag incident happens, all the other teams know it, everyone talks about it. Usually there's a few old guys who play the enforcers, and these guys I respect because they don't take side (although they may belong to some teams). I think the general unwritten rule amongst the guys is that: if you lost a wheel of your rival because you were blocked by the rival's teammates, well that's just too bad for you, but you don't go chopping other people's wheels in attempt to jump back". Seen a few heated confrontation on- and off- the course because of this. Seen some really nasty shiat confrontation after a practice too, a practice! I equate the socal crit scene rules to playground basketball rules. You don't pull a dirty foul, because if you do, then expect payback. Playground rules; it's that simple. Personally I can't imagine being ostracized as aholes, but I guess that's what some guys are good at!


So you're Cat 5?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Oh boy. A pissing contest.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> I'm not a consistent club racer because at 130 lbs I'm not going to win anything in a crit sprint.


This is no excuse for not racing.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

foto said:


> This is no excuse for not racing.


It's not for you. It is for him. If you think he's trolling, you're better of not responding then bait him some more.
I think this horse is done been beat to death.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

AJL said:


> It's not for you. It is for him. If you think he's trolling, you're better of not responding then bait him some more.
> I think this horse is done been beat to death.


Not sure what "it" is here. I am gonna assume it's his excuse. If you really think his excuses are for himself, don't you think he would be better off being honest? He doesn't like racing. That's nothing to be ashamed of, and it has nothing to do with his body type.


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## StillKeen (Oct 4, 2005)

spookyload said:


> From what I saw and heard, the rider drifted slightly to the right. That is obvious to see. What I heard them saying at the same time was the road was bending left at the same spot as the crash. So yes, Cav was holding his line through a turn as the rider was drifting to the side. Unfortunate for Cav that he went around that side. Result was a sprinter who knows how to take getting bumped making contact with a leadout man who was smoked and in the Red zone seeing double. He wasn't prepared for contact, thus went down like a fat kid on a ham sandwhich. There wasn't that much contact, so it leads me to believe he was barely gripping the bars as he was decelerating. A little contact and boom.


Totally agree. And when seeing the front on footage, it's even more apparent how much to the left the road goes. You see the front guys are miles over to the left and heading even more left. 

Now if Cav had the green jersey and it was a Cannondale or Lotto lead out man, then it'd be very interesting to see what they'd do. But as it happens, he backed off after the contact, didn't look to take any advantage of knocking the other guy and isn't going to win green. What more can he do after an accident?


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> The snapshot above I got from Sporza network coverage. But in the same video, it can be seen right at the point of contact between Cav and Veelers, Cav quickly and decisively threw out his left elbow that hooked under the forearm of Veelers. I could not post the video because I don't know how to edit videos and I dont think you can post videos on RBR either.
> 
> That was a dirty play. I supposed Veelers would need to keep a line straight as an arrow for the Cav jockers to see the light. Remember, this is the same Cav who defended one of his ex teammates (when they were on the same squad) for headbutting another guy during jostling for position in a sprint. If this **** was going on in a Socal crit, you can bet somebody will chop his wheel and put him down to teach him a lesson already.


I was thinking the complete opposite. In Socal those type of tactics are part of the game and nobody bats and eye or seeks retribution.


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