# Trouble riding new bike without hands



## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

So I've had bikes since I was a kid. Recently I got my first 'real' bike, a Bianchi Iseo, (I know a lot of you don't like hybrids  ). Anyway, my last bike was an of the shelf schwinn mountain bike and I had no problem riding without hands-even with the untrue wheels. With the Bianchi I just can't stabalize for more than a few seconds ! I love the bike, just wondering if anybody's experienced something similar.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

My Soma is easy. My CAAD10 is tough. Its all in the geo.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Classic symptom of a much too tight headset, aka excessive preload of the headset bearings. Adjust the headset so the front wheel easily flops left or right when picking up the front of the bike and leaning the bike slightly left or right. If you have play, it's too loose.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Your mt bike had wider tires & smaller diameter wheels & significantly different geometry. When you let go of the bars sit up straight or even lean back a tiny bit.


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## thirstyman (May 6, 2007)

rear wheel dish could be off and this will make it tough to go no hands. You wouldn't think it would make such a huge difference but even 1mm difference from center will.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

wim said:


> Classic symptom of a much too tight headset, aka excessive preload of the headset bearings. Adjust the headset so the front wheel easily flops left or right when picking up the front of the bike and leaning the bike slightly left or right. If you have play, it's too loose.


Well it easily leans either way already. I thought maybe the bearings were too loose-I'm an automotive mechanic, but don't know much about bikes. Do I adjust preload with the bolt on top of the headset, where the stem is clamped ?


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

thirstyman said:


> rear wheel dish could be off and this will make it tough to go no hands. You wouldn't think it would make such a huge difference but even 1mm difference from center will.



I hear a lot about dish. What is it exactly ? Is that something you can adjust ?


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

Might it also have to do with the fact that this is my first aluminum framed bike ? All others were steel except my carbon specialized (which I never got to ride : (


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Robbmiami said:


> I hear a lot about dish. What is it exactly ? Is that something you can adjust ?


Dish is how much the rim is offset from the center if the hub.

Check Park Took for headset adjustment procedures. Its easy.


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## impoverishedcyclist (Apr 12, 2011)

The trick is to shift your weight all the way back and sit up. Gotta commit to it.


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## scryan (Jan 24, 2011)

Robbmiami said:


> Well it easily leans either way already. I thought maybe the bearings were too loose-I'm an automotive mechanic, but don't know much about bikes. Do I adjust preload with the bolt on top of the headset, where the stem is clamped ?


If it falls back and forth easy, and isn't loose enough to have axial play your good...
But your almost right on the adjustment. The top cap does nothing when the stem is tightened. The stem clamps onto the steerer tube to hold the preload.
First loosen the stem on the side that attaches to the steerer, then tighten the top cap down to increase pre-load as needed. Re-align and tighten the stem to lock in the preload and your done. 
Your really just using the preload adjustment to eliminate free play so the bearing races don't get beat up with bumps and vibration.

Most likely though its just the fact that road bikes are squirrelly as **** compared to an old Schwinn mnt bike.


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

sepa said:


> My Soma is easy. My CAAD10 is tough. Its all in the geo.


I don't find the CAAD10 particularly challenging.



wim said:


> Classic symptom of a much too tight headset, aka excessive preload of the headset bearings. Adjust the headset so the front wheel easily flops left or right when picking up the front of the bike and leaning the bike slightly left or right. If you have play, it's too loose.


This!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Robbmiami said:


> Might it also have to do with the fact that this is my first aluminum framed bike ? All others were steel except my carbon specialized (which I never got to ride : (


no. Aluminum definitely has nothing to do with it.


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## Pitts Pilot (Dec 5, 2011)

Headset too tight? I don't think so. I've had DOZENS of bikes. Some will sat stable and straight with no hands. Some put me in a ditch before I could get the first sleeve off. I think it's all about the geometry of the bike. My '83 stumpjumper - you could do a handstand on the seat - make a sandwich - and text your buddy (if yo had a phone that could do that then.) My current Giant Defy - you have to really focus and keep on it to keep it going straight. You can play with the headset all day, and that will not change.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Pitts Pilot said:


> Headset too tight? I don't think so.


Well, here's something to change your thinking: Take a bike, any bike, and crank down on the headset until it starts to bind. Then go for a no-hands ride.

You steer a no-hands bike by inducing slight front wheel flop with subtle shifts of your body weight. If the wheel won't flop easily, it's difficult to steer the bike regardless of geometry. A bike with a locked-down headset is unrideable, even with you hands on the bars.

Also keep in mind that OP is trying to ride a very relaxed hybrid bike no-hands, not some race bike.


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

Pitts Pilot said:


> Headset too tight? I don't think so. I've had DOZENS of bikes. Some will sat stable and straight with no hands. Some put me in a ditch before I could get the first sleeve off. I think it's all about the geometry of the bike. My '83 stumpjumper - you could do a handstand on the seat - make a sandwich - and text your buddy (if yo had a phone that could do that then.) My current Giant Defy - you have to really focus and keep on it to keep it going straight. You can play with the headset all day, and that will not change.


I don't think anyone is discounting the fact that some geometries are inherently more stable(slower handling) than others making them easier to ride hands free. That being said, I've directly experienced the too tight headset issue, have you? If the bars aren't able to turn completely freely with minimal friction, then it will be impossible to ride hands free. Give it a try!

Either the OP's headset is too tight, he isn't good/confident at riding hands free, or he's got an extremely unstable geometry bike. I'd say the first two possibilities are far more likely.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Yamabushi said:


> I don't think anyone is discounting the fact that some geometries are inherently more stable(slower handling) than others making them easier to ride hands free.


Exactly—I'm not saying there couldn't be other causes. Just one of several others: if the OP is using the body weight shifts learned and automated with his old bike, he could be "oversteering" or "understeering" his new bike until he has learned to modify his steering input to fit the new bike.

Edit: There goes my New Year's resolution. I was going to spend more time riding my bike and less time riding my computer chair. 

/w


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

Since the headset seems to be tightened correctly, I'm with the "it's the geometry" crowd. I have an older Trek and and older Cannondale, both from 1990 or so, and I can ride the Trek no hands without issue whereas the Cannondale will have me off in the ditch in about 2 seconds flat.


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## Seagoon (Nov 22, 2009)

More likely the O.P is not sitting squarely on the bike thus unbalancing him/her when trying to ride no 
hands.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

wim said:


> Well, here's something to change your thinking: Take a bike, any bike, and crank down on the headset until it starts to bind. Then go for a no-hands ride.
> 
> You steer a no-hands bike by inducing slight front wheel flop with subtle shifts of your body weight. If the wheel won't flop easily, it's difficult to steer the bike regardless of geometry. A bike with a locked-down headset is unrideable, even with you hands on the bars.
> 
> Also keep in mind that OP is trying to ride a very relaxed hybrid bike no-hands, not some race bike.



Though this is a hybrid it defenitaly has a more aggressive geometry. I've never owned a roadbike, but I've rode a few. This bike puts me in a somewhat outstretched position.


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## nshadow (Jul 29, 2010)

The older bike more than likely had heavier wheels, giving them more rotational inertia, making it easier to balance.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

Yamabushi said:


> I don't think anyone is discounting the fact that some geometries are inherently more stable(slower handling) than others making them easier to ride hands free. That being said, I've directly experienced the too tight headset issue, have you? If the bars aren't able to turn completely freely with minimal friction, then it will be impossible to ride hands free. Give it a try!
> 
> Either the OP's headset is too tight, he isn't good/confident at riding hands free, or he's got an extremely unstable geometry bike. I'd say the first two possibilities are far more likely.




It could be my confidence too, I really don't want to drop my new baby either ! I don't ride as much as a lot of you either-I might do 10 miles a week on average. It's going to increase substantially this next week because I'm back in college.


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## askmass (Sep 28, 2009)

Lots of variables could apply here, I would think.

Too easy of a gear makes it near impossible for me to ride hands free, so I've got to be cranking fairly steady and sit fully upright - commit to it as mentioned above.

That said, I am no expert at hands free whatsoever. Even for those who are, one odd rock at the wrong time and place can put you down hard, I have been warned.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

askmass said:


> Lots of variables could apply here, I would think.
> 
> Too easy of a gear makes it near impossible for me to ride hands free, so I've got to be cranking fairly steady and sit fully upright - commit to it as mentioned above.
> 
> That said, I am no expert at hands free whatsoever. Even for those who are, one odd rock at the wrong time and place can put you down hard, I have been warned.


I'm going to try in a higher gear. I was kind of brainwashed by someone who told me that I should be pedaling at higher rpm all the time. I've been riding hands free since I was a kid, but never on this type of bike and only for small trips and short commutes. I've had some close calls from no hands but you can usually catch yourself. Getting hit by cars is my worry-that hurts !


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## Seagoon (Nov 22, 2009)

Do me a favour Robbmiami reduce your seat height by 2" and then try.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

Seagoon said:


> Do me a favour Robbmiami reduce your seat height by 2" and then try.


Well let me ask you something, how important is the angle of my leg when the pedal is all the way down ? I've been told it's very important that it be almost straight.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Robbmiami said:


> Well let me ask you something, how important is the angle of my leg when the pedal is all the way down ? I've been told it's very important that it be almost straight.


It is very important. not straight though. Maybe 10-15 degrees of bend.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Almost straight might be too much. You should have a slight bend in it. You should also be bale to lock your ankle (toes pointed straight up) at the 6 o'clock pedal position. Another way to get it right is adjust the saddle so that it's 88% of your inseam height to the pedal spindle while at the bottom position.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

The problem is not with the bike or riding position. It's the rider. You are used to the way a mountain bike's steering responds to input. Road bikes have much quicker handling. So your timing is off when you are making a correction while riding no hands.

The solution is to practice more. Eventually you'll get it. I had the opposite problem at one point when I got a MTB and was doing a lot of riding on the road to get to the trails. It took a while to learn to think farther ahead because the steering was slower to respond to a weight shift.

Your saddle may be too high for efficient pedalling but that's not going to affect your riding no hands.


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## Seagoon (Nov 22, 2009)

Please just try my idea and see if it works.


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

Not to be a smart ass but can you balance without being on a bike? It could be you and not the bike.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

I got an idea. How about saying fawkit and just leaving your hands on the bars?

The last thing we need is another out of control cyclist on the road.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

Seagoon said:


> Please just try my idea and see if it works.


I plan to when I get home. I'm out for the weekend


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

TWB8s said:


> Not to be a smart ass but can you balance without being on a bike? It could be you and not the bike.


Well what exactly do you mean...I'd guess I have good balance. How would I check my balance in relation to sitting ?


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

Robbmiami said:


> Well what exactly do you mean...I'd guess I have good balance. How would I check my balance in relation to sitting ?


You could try walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Yoga would be beneficial. Not only would it fine tune your balance it will help with your fitness.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

ericm979 said:


> The problem is not with the bike or riding position. It's the rider. You are used to the way a mountain bike's steering responds to input. Road bikes have much quicker handling. So your timing is off when you are making a correction while riding no hands.
> 
> The solution is to practice more. Eventually you'll get it. I had the opposite problem at one point when I got a MTB and was doing a lot of riding on the road to get to the trails. It took a while to learn to think farther ahead because the steering was slower to respond to a weight shift.
> 
> Your saddle may be too high for efficient pedalling but that's not going to affect your riding no hands.



Well I'll definitely get plenty of practice with the semester starting. I don't think my seat is too high. I can put my leg straight, with my ankles locked and lift off the seat a couple of inches. I'm going to see how it feels if I bring it down a little bit.


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## cleansweep13 (Oct 10, 2010)

I noticed one of my bikes was a little harder to ride with no hands. I checked and the headset was too tight so I think there is some excelent advice here!


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

TWB8s said:


> You could try walking and chewing gum at the same time.
> 
> Yoga would be beneficial. Not only would it fine tune your balance it will help with your fitness.



Lmao ! I thought you meant something particular to cycling. I have exceptional balance. I lift weights three times a week. I do in place lunges with 135 x 10 with a barbell on my back (I'm not the hulk nor do I want to be) and I never lose my balance, so I'd figure that's fine. Plus I took my training wheels off last week so...


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

tihsepa said:


> I got an idea. How about saying fawkit and just leaving your hands on the bars?
> 
> The last thing we need is another out of control cyclist on the road.


Your right, but it nice to sit up sometimes


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

cleansweep13 said:


> I noticed one of my bikes was a little harder to ride with no hands. I checked and the headset was too tight so I think there is some excelent advice here!


But I did the test suggested and it moves back and forth fine, I didn't observe any play in it either. When riding it turns smooth as silk


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

ericm979 said:


> The problem is not with the bike or riding position. It's the rider. You are used to the way a mountain bike's steering responds to input. Road bikes have much quicker handling. So your timing is off when you are making a correction while riding no hands.
> 
> The solution is to practice more. Eventually you'll get it.


Read what this guy wrote again. 

The pros can ride no-hands all day long on twitchy race bikes with 19 mm wide tires. But they ride full time, so they also have the most practice at it!


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## velocanman (Jul 15, 2011)

If your bike was too unstable to ride hands-free it would be too unstable to ride. You probably just need to practice. These bikes and wheels are lighter and the tires are narrower. All this means less centripetal force, momentum, and traction to maintain a heading.

Your fit on the bike can also be a factor. If you are too far forward on the saddle and/or your knee-over-pedal is significantly forward, it can make the hands-free handling sketchy. 

Since it sounds like your headset is not too tight, other mechanical issues can include aerobars or other junk on the bars, and/or tight cable housings. 

You didn't really describe what happens--is it a fast oscillation that goes unstable that you can't control, or a slow wobble that eventually heads off in a set direction? The first is geometry, skills, and bike fit. The second could be mechanical.

Like the other guys said, you need to sit up and back fully on the saddle. Use hips, slight leaning, and even pedal pressure to steer. Shift up to two harder gears for the speed than you would normally use and keep pedaling. This is important. Also, use light fingertip pressure before removing your hands.

Try riding one-hand for 30 or more seconds per side and alternating hands. Use light fingertip pressure here, as well.

Good luck, and please be careful.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

Thank you everybody for the advice. I did try adjusting my saddle height but that made no difference. I put it back and just kept practicing, this time leaning back and pedaling slower, at a higher gear. I seem to be getting it now. I guess this bike just has a lot faster handling than I'm used to.


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## thirstyman (May 6, 2007)

After 3 years on the same bike (Trek Madone) and several wheel sets, I put on a new wheel set and found riding without hands suddenly newly challenging. Formerly, I had ridden for minutes at a time no hands without difficulty but now had trouble holding no hands for more than 2 seconds. The only change was the wheels although they were just a newer set of the same thing I had been ridding previously. My front wheel dish was off by almost 1mm and, when corrected, immediately eliminated the problem completely.


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## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

thirstyman said:


> ............................. My front wheel dish was off by almost 1mm and, when corrected, immediately eliminated the problem completely.


Never heard of dishing a front wheel??


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## thirstyman (May 6, 2007)

J24 said:


> Never heard of dishing a front wheel??


Exactly, there shouldn't be any. The wheel was built 1mm off center.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

thirstyman said:


> After 3 years on the same bike (Trek Madone) and several wheel sets, I put on a new wheel set and found riding without hands suddenly newly challenging. Formerly, I had ridden for minutes at a time no hands without difficulty but now had trouble holding no hands for more than 2 seconds. The only change was the wheels although they were just a newer set of the same thing I had been ridding previously. My front wheel dish was off by almost 1mm and, when corrected, immediately eliminated the problem completely.



So what is the correct procedure for checking and correcting dish ? I'm a technician and am very handy but I understand that something as small as 1mm would be very hard to eyeball.


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## velocanman (Jul 15, 2011)

Robbmiami said:


> So what is the correct procedure for checking and correcting dish ? I'm a technician and am very handy but I understand that something as small as 1mm would be very hard to eyeball.


You are basically checking run-out on the wheel to ensure it is centered. Easiest to do with a truing stand and a caliper that bumps against each side of the rim. Also helps to have a centering tool that looks like a tee-wrench or triangle to confirm where center is.

I am somewhat skeptical that a 1mm offset from center could cause that much instability. I suspect the wheel was out of true or out of round which was corrected when they centered it.


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

*riding no hands*



Robbmiami said:


> So I've had bikes since I was a kid. Recently I got my first 'real' bike, a Bianchi Iseo, (I know a lot of you don't like hybrids  ). Anyway, my last bike was an of the shelf schwinn mountain bike and I had no problem riding without hands-even with the untrue wheels. With the Bianchi I just can't stabalize for more than a few seconds ! I love the bike, just wondering if anybody's experienced something similar.


here ya go:thumbsup:


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## thirstyman (May 6, 2007)

velocanman said:


> You are basically checking run-out on the wheel to ensure it is centered. Easiest to do with a truing stand and a caliper that bumps against each side of the rim. Also helps to have a centering tool that looks like a tee-wrench or triangle to confirm where center is.
> 
> I am somewhat skeptical that a 1mm offset from center could cause that much instability. I suspect the wheel was out of true or out of round which was corrected when they centered it.


wheel was .2mm out of round and .35mm off true. as measured by dial calipers. dishing tool showed it off at least 1mm in dish. dishing tools don't generally quantify dish offset but rather indicate the gap from the hub face to the tool. when the tool touches both faces when tested the wheel is centered.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

King Arthur said:


> here ya go:thumbsup:



?!?!?


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I have one bike out of the 20 I own that cannot be ridden no hands - it pulls hard to the left. Might be the headset, might be the wheels, might be that the CF fork is slightly awry - I haven't taken the time to figure it out. The one thing I know is that it's not a geometry thing because it's built to the same measurements as my other custom bikes. You answer probably lies in wheels, tires or fork. I'd be skeptical of the headset unless you feel any drag in side to side movement.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

Well I've been practicing and last night I rode about 9 blocks with no hands. I guess it just feels different than what I was used to. It took a bit of confidence to sit all the way back since the geometry puts me so much further from the handle bars than I'm used to. It also helped that it was about 45 degrees out and I needed to do it to rub my hands together because they were frozen !!


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

Robbmiami said:


> Well I've been practicing and last night I rode about 9 blocks with no hands. I guess it just feels different than what I was used to. It took a bit of confidence to sit all the way back since the geometry puts me so much further from the handle bars than I'm used to. It also helped that it was about 45 degrees out and I needed to do it to rub my hands together because they were frozen !!


Glad to hear it, mate! :thumbsup:


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## wibly wobly (Apr 23, 2009)

The next step now is to be able to put on or take off that vest, do your fingernails, shave, read the paper....


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

So I've been progressing well with no hands-turning, going going forever ! However I was inspecting my bike yesterday and I found the the rear wheel is off center. I noticed when I saw on of the brake pads was touching well the other had a large gap. I adjusted the pads and it was very obvious that the wheel was not centered in the frame. This isn't normal, even for a rear wheel right ?


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

milkbaby said:


> The pros can ride no-hands all day long on twitchy race bikes with 19 mm wide tires. But they ride full time, so they also have the most practice at it!


I'm no pro but I find a quick handing road bike easier to ride no hands than a MTB. The delay between moving my hips and the bike reacting is shorter. With a MTB I have to think farther ahead. 


For the off center wheel, check that it is fully seated in both dropouts. Wheels don't spotaneously change offsets. If the wheels not centered in the brake pads, it's usually either the wheel not being seated in the frame, or the brake rotating on its pivot.


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## Robbmiami (Nov 14, 2011)

I'll check. But its not just the brake pads, it's the frame that it doesn't sit evenly in. Yet the wheel itself seems not to be out of round or have and runout at all.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

I have checked in on this thread several times and I must say it is REALLY painful to read........I'll tell you straight up that if both wheels do NOT track the same AND straight it will be difficult to ride no hands period


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## thirstyman (May 6, 2007)

However I was inspecting my bike yesterday and I found the the rear wheel is off center. I noticed when I saw on of the brake pads was touching well the other had a large gap. I adjusted the pads and it was very obvious that the wheel was not centered in the frame. This isn't normal said:


> Uhhh, that would be the dishing problem that has been mentioned a few times as the likely source of your problem.
> 
> Yes, this has definitely been one of the most painful threads.


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