# Did Lance just confess??



## vetboy (Oct 11, 2005)

On his twitter page, he refers to this piece as "spot on".

http://deadspin.com/5738218/the-case-against-the-case-against-lance-armstrong

@tpletch the piece was spot on. about 4 hours ago via ÜberTwitter in reply to tpletch


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

I read that too. That article seems to justify doping as necessary. Was thinking the same thing myself.
I think when this all finally comes to light and Lance has no other options, he'll say he did it because the ends justified the means (ie "I was able to give hope to so many people with cancer"). I think that time is coming soon.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

It appears that the tone of most Lance supporters is changing from never doped to well, everybody did so its ok. That would be a valid point if it wasnt for Livestrong and him being an icon in sports.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

He has to fess up at the grand jury. Testimony is sealed so he could be facing a Marion Jones type prison sentence if he doesn't at least cop to some of it.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

gh1 said:


> It appears that the tone of most Lance supporters is changing from never doped to well, everybody did so its ok. That would be a valid point if it wasnt for Livestrong and him being an icon in sports.


Actually the "Tone" of most Lance supporters for years has been that he was using PED's...it's just that the Lance haters have ignored those posts for years and are waiting for the "I told you so" moment so they can feel better about themselves


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## Hula Hoop (Feb 4, 2009)

See paragraph three, am I missing something, the author considers professional
tour riding unnatural and as dangerous perse as taking PEDs. This is a specious
analogy and I resent the mindset that 'cyclists are weirdos'. Keep your smug,
sedantary, prescription drug taking, overweight delusional rationalizations to yourself, ahole.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*whoah*



Hula Hoop said:


> See paragraph three, am I missing something, the author considers professional
> tour riding unnatural and as dangerous perse as taking PEDs. This is a specious
> analogy and I resent the mindset that 'cyclists are weirdos'. Keep your smug,
> sedantary, prescription drug taking, overweight delusional rationalizations to yourself, ahole.


I have read the article, I love riding, but look at it this way: We all agree that these foklks are athletes. Trained, etc etc 

SO, after a few days in row in the mountains, thousands of climbing feet, you then the NEXT DAY TT at nearly 30 mph...........ALL NATURAL............

IMO, no way, no how, others, why not. Thats the rub


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

ttug said:


> I have read the article, I love riding, but look at it this way: We all agree that these foklks are athletes. Trained, etc etc
> 
> SO, after a few days in row in the mountains, thousands of climbing feet, you then the NEXT DAY TT at nearly 30 mph...........ALL NATURAL............
> 
> IMO, no way, no how, others, why not. Thats the rub


This has been Fuentes and others justification all along. Namely, it is unhealthy to subject a human body to the stress of professional cycling without "recovery" aids.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*yup*



Dwayne Barry said:


> This has been Fuentes and others justification all along. Namely, it is unhealthy to subject a human body to the stress of professional cycling without "recovery" aids.


I think there is a valid point there. Again, I want to stress, look at Baseball, folks want lots of home runs........TDF, folks want freak fast climbing and a killer blow in a TT.......

Somewhere, a person just says OK..........sure, but its not gonna happen the NATURAL way.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

Anyone who says Lance supporters have always been saying he did PEDs is re-writing history. That is 100% not the case.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

*Wait, 2 things . . .*

Anyone who says Lance supporters have always been saying he did PEDs is re-writing history. That is 100% not the case.

I just read the article - I am certain Armstrong posted it more because of the fact that it says that Novitzky, tramples over rights and is urged on by the media. Not sure I agree with that statement, but that's what it said and I can imagine LA playing that up.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

ttug said:


> I think there is a valid point there. Again, I want to stress, look at Baseball, folks want lots of home runs........TDF, folks want freak fast climbing and a killer blow in a TT.......
> 
> Somewhere, a person just says OK..........sure, but its not gonna happen the NATURAL way.


JMHO. This isn't caused by audience expectations. The crowd just wants to see who wins...who the best is. It's the athlete's themselves and the enablers around them, who subvert the rules to make that happen.

If there was a way to make absolutely sure that the playing field was entirely level, I don't think fans would care if climbs or TTs were slower than before...and if it meant dialing back the difficulty of a grand tour, I think we'd be okay with that too...as long as it was real.


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## vetboy (Oct 11, 2005)

ronderman said:


> Anyone who says Lance supporters have always been saying he did PEDs is re-writing history. That is 100% not the case.
> 
> I just read the article - I am certain Armstrong posted it more because of the fact that it says that Novitzky, tramples over rights and is urged on by the media. Not sure I agree with that statement, but that's what it said and I can imagine LA playing that up.


Isn't Lance smarter than that? I still can't figure out the angle. Why would he call an article that labels him a cheat "spot on" no matter what else it said?


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*good points*



Opus51569 said:


> JMHO. This isn't caused by audience expectations. The crowd just wants to see who wins...who the best is. It's the athlete's themselves and the enablers around them, who subvert the rules to make that happen.
> 
> If there was a way to make absolutely sure that the playing field was entirely level, I don't think fans would care if climbs or TTs were slower than before...and if it meant dialing back the difficulty of a grand tour, I think we'd be okay with that too...as long as it was real.


I agree to the degree that fans are not the actual folks who are commiting the doping, yes, thats the athlete.

However, whats a real TDF? You could have a 20 mile course, and you would still have the dope


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## ghostryder (Dec 28, 2009)

What are they going to do now? take wins away? and if they do, who will they give it to, everyone was doping.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

ghostryder said:


> What are they going to do now? take wins away? and if they do, who will they give it to, everyone was doping.


Seriously? At this point who cares about tour wins, its a man who sells himself daily and built his image into an empire. An empire built on lies, intimidation.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

gh1 said:


> Seriously? At this point who cares about tour wins, its a man who sells himself daily and built his image into an empire. An empire built on lies, intimidation.


<img src=https://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4814230/You-Sit-on-a-Throne-of-lies.jpg>


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

The best thing LA can do is:

1. Laugh
2. Say "Of course I doped. We all do. How could none of you know that?"
3. "Do you all still believe in the toothe fairy also?"
4. "If I just voluntarily turned myself in, a lot of careers would be in jeopardy.."
5. "Next.."

The "Pete Rose" thing is just going to make it worse. I don't know when, but LA will eventually admit it.


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## vetboy (Oct 11, 2005)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> <img src=https://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4814230/You-Sit-on-a-Throne-of-lies.jpg>


Do you think Lance smells like beef and cheese?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

vetboy said:


> Do you think Lance smells like beef and cheese?



No...Conti smells like beef...Spanish beef


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

there used to be a time where you'd be banned from rbr if you bashed lance


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

When was that?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

What if we find out he was clean and there is some sort of proof that comes out.... That would be INSANE...

I would send him $20 for being even more of a bad ass than I thought..

Wishful thinking I guess..


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

rydbyk said:


> What if we find out he was clean and there is some sort of proof that comes out.... That would be INSANE...
> .


I wish that would be the case in all honesty... I would hand out yellow braclets! 

I was a big fan at one time..... but after the 2004 tour Simeoni chase down thing and his zip the lips sign...... I started looking past the surface and just didn't like what I saw.... so I guess somehow I became a 'hater' some would say... but you know I'd love to be wrong.


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## smartyiak (Sep 28, 2005)

*So...if Lance doped?*

Then what? I mean, who cares? I say that a bit flip (obviously people care otherwise this thread wouldn't exist), but on a macro level: who cares?

Tomorrow we find out Lance doped and on Monday...I wake up, take a shower, and go to work. Lance is still the 7x TdF winner...you're still doing...whatever it is you do.

I guess I'm confused after reading posts over the past two years about why it matters. I know someone will chime in saying that "he cheated, so he should be called out". But really, who cares?

I suppose I'm saying: Lance (or Pantani or Vinokuov or Basso or whomever it was that year) was exciting to watch because I love bike racing and competition and seven years (or 5yrs or 10yrs) later it really doesn't matter: they are still the champions. If we say: they doped, so they're not still the champions, then what...who really cares?

-Smarty


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

pedalruns said:


> I wish that would be the case in all honesty... I would hand out yellow braclets!
> 
> I was a big fan at one time..... *but after the 2004 tour Simeoni chase down thing and his zip the lips sign......* I started looking past the surface and just didn't like what I saw.... so I guess somehow I became a 'hater' some would say... but you know I'd love to be wrong.


This was the turning point for me, too.

But it's always best to view people simply as we are: complex, fallible and occasionally beautiful creatures.

He's done a lot of good for so many people, I think I can get over if it ended up he was doping all those years (and I think he surely was). But I wonder how this will effect his non-cycling fans or casual observers. What will happen to the LA Foundation if/when his clean persona crumples?


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

smartyiak said:


> Then what? I mean, who cares? I say that a bit flip (obviously people care otherwise this thread wouldn't exist), but on a macro level: who cares?
> 
> Tomorrow we find out Lance doped and on Monday...I wake up, take a shower, and go to work. Lance is still the 7x TdF winner...you're still doing...whatever it is you do.
> 
> ...


For me it isn't because he 'just doped'... He controlled it, even the media especially here in the U.S. ... he bullied or sued everyone and anyone that got in his way: Bassons, Simeoni, Betsy Andrea, cyclingnews.com, Frankie Andrea, Mike Anderson, Lemond, etc .... and he built an empire on lies... And I don't want history to repeat itself.. A cheat is a cheat and broken law is a broken law... I would love for the young juniors coming up not to have to be in a system(the USOC & usa cycling) where they looked for ways to dope without being detected (this in the SI article)


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

pedalruns said:


> For me it isn't because he 'just doped'... He controlled it, even the media especially here in the U.S. ... he bullied or sued everyone and anyone that got in his way: Bassons, Simeoni, Betsy Andrea, cyclingnews.com, Frankie Andrea, Mike Anderson, Lemond, etc .... and he built an empire on lies... And I don't want history to repeat itself.. A cheat is a cheat and broken law is a broken law... I would love for the young juniors coming up not to have to be in a system(the USOC & usa cycling) where they looked for ways to dope without being detected (this in the SI article)


A cynic in me thinks that athletes in all sports will keep looking for ways to get advantage without being detected. It is human nature. 

As to people who turned on him in 2004 - it was clear he was an arrogant @sshole from day 1. I remember watching his interviews in 1999 on ESPN and thinking: what a jerk. But at least he is our jerk! 

I think Armstrong is an @sshole with a heart of gold (unless you cross him). He is like Vic Mackey from Shield. Criminal, corrupt and unethical, but yet you find yourself rooting for the guy too often. I liked watching him compete. I also enjoyed Hamilton, Landis, Ulrich and others. So what? They were great, made for TV, entertainment, based on activity I enjoy (cycling). If they didn't dope, I would enjoy watching someone else who was doping. The system was setup that way.

From entertainment point of view, the Tour that Sastre won may have been the cleanest and also the most boring Tour. What does it say about the sport?


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> <img src=https://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4814230/You-Sit-on-a-Throne-of-lies.jpg>


Great quote, funny.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

It says that, LA in his arrogance mocks Sastres win and decides to come back because he knows he can beat anyone who races clean even at his age. 
Seperate the two things in your mind, the racer LA and the businessman. I cheered for LA during those TDFs as well, its history. On the other hand should he be dragging down money today(lots of it) and having kids buy his gear if its all a lie?


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

gh1 said:


> I cheered for LA during those TDFs as well, its history. On the other hand should he be dragging down money today(lots of it) and having kids buy his gear if its all a lie?


This question would be fair to ask on some level about all sports, just about any of which are more infulential to kids. Most ball sports athletes are not at risk of doping positives but many of the best are horrible roll models that command much larger fan attention and endorsment dollars. How about Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds (steroids to all time records) Michael Vick (animal murderer)? Tiger Woods and Kobe Bryant (adultery)? Brett Favre (weiner-gate)? Compared to guys like that LA is almost a nobody.


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## ArkRider (Jul 27, 2007)

davidka said:


> This question would be fair to ask on some level about all sports, just about any of which are more infulential to kids. Most ball sports athletes are not at risk of doping positives but many of the best are horrible roll models that command much larger fan attention and endorsment dollars. How about Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds (steroids to all time records) Michael Vick (animal murderer)? Tiger Woods and Kobe Bryant (adultery)? Brett Favre (weiner-gate)? Compared to guys like that LA is almost a nobody.


Would that not mean that the public should demand that dopers in those sports be aggressively prosecuted as well?

I may be misreading your post, but it almost sounds like bad conduct being excused because others are exhibiting worse conduct.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

I'm simply pointing out that if one is concerned about the example that LA sets is bad, there are WAY bigger bad examples out there. LA is nobody in the land of bad examples and isn't worth the attention in that regard.

I believe LA conducted himself in the way his sport's climate dictated and he did it better than anyone else. Like him or not, he elevated the whole sport. I would be willing to bet Ullrich, Basso and whoever stood on the 3rd step in a given year earned a lot more money for being a challenger to Lance then they would have being the champion without him.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> I'm simply pointing out that if one is concerned about the example that LA sets is bad, there are WAY bigger bad examples out there. LA is nobody in the land of bad examples and isn't worth the attention in that regard.
> 
> I believe LA conducted himself in the way his sport's climate dictated and he did it better than anyone else. Like him or not, he elevated the whole sport. I would be willing to bet Ullrich, Basso and whoever stood on the 3rd step in a given year earned a lot more money for being a challenger to Lance then they would have being the champion without him.


Yup, Making money makes it all ok. 

Paying off the UCI is fine. Harassing Mike Anderson, Emma, Betsy, Greg, Bassons, Simeoni, etc. no problem. Using experimental, unapproved, drugs may be against the law but it is cool as long as you make money doing it. 

Jan was probably wondering why he did not advanced notice of surprise testing.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

I don't think it's any more acceptable than you do, just pointing out that it's a condition of the sport that the athletes all accept (the drugs, not the other accusations). For all the folks standing in line to take a piece of LA, you'd think at least one or two of his ligitamate challengers would have something to say if he'd done something so bad. With the supposed mountain of evidence he continues to be invited and PAID to attend races by race organizers.

Jan must've gotten the same advance notice, I don't recall him turning in a positive either.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> I don't think it's any more acceptable than you do, just pointing out that it's a condition of the sport that the athletes all accept (the drugs, not the other accusations). For all the folks standing in line to take a piece of LA, you'd think at least one or two of his ligitamate challengers would have something to say if he'd done something so bad. With the supposed mountain of evidence he continues to be invited and PAID to attend races by race organizers.
> 
> Jan must've gotten the same advance notice, I don't recall him turning in a positive either.


What about Bassons? A rider with a huge Vo2, excellent tactical sense, but refused to dope and was hounded out of the sport by Armstrong and others. 

Ulrich tested positive for a surprise, out of competition test. He was suspended for 6 months and lost his ride on Telekom. It cost him millions of Euros. I am sure he would have like advanced notice of that test.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

davidka said:


> I don't think it's any more acceptable than you do, just pointing out that it's a condition of the sport that the athletes all accept (the drugs, not the other accusations). For all the folks standing in line to take a piece of LA, you'd think at least one or two of his ligitamate challengers would have something to say if he'd done something so bad.


After Armstrong's hounding of Simeoni in 2004, and of his former colleagues (Andreu, his former mechanic, former soigneur etc.) in the 2005 SCA case? Or before, such as his treatment of LeMond, Bassons, etc.? 

Just because the top tier of cycling is rotten does not make it OK. 



> With the supposed mountain of evidence he continues to be invited and PAID to attend races by race organizers.


Many of these race organizers, such as the TdU organizers, are more interested in the promotional aspects than the sporting aspects. In fact, the TdU organizers as being investigated for mis-use of public funds right now as we speak. 



> Jan must've gotten the same advance notice, I don't recall him turning in a positive either.


How come he was caught in an out-of-competition test in 2002 then?


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

What about Bassons? I don't know about him but he surely knew the conditions of the sport and made his choice just like everyone else.

As we know now, the testers are way off the back. Many riders are caught by circumstantial evidence and others almost by testing accident (Landis is a good example). When these riders come clean it's hard to understand how they weren't caught sooner as they're taking everything the testers are looking for.

Jan tested positive for amphetimine. He claims it was in a recreational drug and probably didn't know it was there. I can believe it because there's no good reason to take stimulants in the off season from a competitive standpoint so this represents a testing accident in my eyes. For all we know, the test was not a surprise to him, only the result?


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

davidka said:


> What about Bassons? I don't know about him but he surely knew the conditions of the sport and made his choice just like everyone else.


After the "Festina Affair" in 98, there was some hope of the sport turning around... so in 1999 Christophe Bassons(his VO2 numbers were like that of Lemond, far better than most in the peloton) tried to ride clean one last time.... He was basically bullied out of the tour, with LA being the new biggest bully, Bassons nickname was "Mr. Clean".... And he did make a choice... he QUIT the sport! 

And... yes the sport has always had drug use, but we all know the sport changed with rampant EPO use in the mid 90's to something far worse.... so before then riders like a Bassons could have competed.


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## RowRonin (Jan 1, 2006)

repost


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> What about Bassons? I don't know about him but he surely knew the conditions of the sport and made his choice just like everyone else.
> 
> As we know now, the testers are way off the back. Many riders are caught by circumstantial evidence and others almost by testing accident (Landis is a good example). When these riders come clean it's hard to understand how they weren't caught sooner as they're taking everything the testers are looking for.
> 
> Jan tested positive for amphetimine. He claims it was in a recreational drug and probably didn't know it was there. I can believe it because there's no good reason to take stimulants in the off season from a competitive standpoint so this represents a testing accident in my eyes. For all we know, the test was not a surprise to him, only the result?


The conditions of the sport were in flux as Bassons was dominating the U23's in the early 90's. Prior to EPO it was possible to ride clean and win. To say that Bassons "Knew the Conditions" is absurd. This is not an excuse. 

Jan took some ecstasy at a party, the next morning he was woken up by a surprise OOC. Certainly he would have preferred to have advanced knowledge of OOC's. Unlike Armstrong he was unable to pay off the UCI so he moved to Switzerland, a country with limited anti doping funds that seldom performed OOC's.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> The conditions of the sport were in flux as Bassons was dominating the U23's in the early 90's. Prior to EPO it was possible to ride clean and win. To say that Bassons "Knew the Conditions" is absurd. This is not an excuse.
> 
> Jan took some ecstasy at a party, the next morning he was woken up by a surprise OOC. Certainly he would have preferred to have advanced knowledge of OOC's. Unlike Armstrong he was unable to pay off the UCI so he moved to Switzerland, a country with limited anti doping funds that seldom performed OOC's.


It's not absurd and no excuse is needed. We're average Joes and we know something about the conditions of the sport. To believe he didn't know is naive as is believing that pre-EPO methods of doping were so much less effective. Dominating U23 doesn't guarantee Professional greatness. Ask Popovych.

I believe the figures that LA is reported to have donated to the UCI were well within Jan's financial means. @ $500k, Jan made at least 4-5x that in annual team salary alone, add an Addidas endorsement and $500k becomes small. It's also just as likely that Jan moved to Switzerland as a tax shelter as many do to Monaco if they can get in.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> It's not absurd and no excuse is needed. We're average Joes and we know something about the conditions of the sport. To believe he didn't know is naive as is believing that pre-EPO methods of doping were so much less effective. Dominating U23 doesn't guarantee Professional greatness. Ask Popovych.
> 
> I believe the figures that LA is reported to have donated to the UCI were well within Jan's financial means. @ $500k, Jan made at least 4-5x that in annual team salary alone, add an Addidas endorsement and $500k becomes small. It's also just as likely that Jan moved to Switzerland as a tax shelter as many do to Monaco if they can get in.


Yes, Pre-EPO methods had nowhere near the effectiveness of EPO, not even close. Popo was on the podium at the Giro in his 3rd year. he chose a different path then Bassons. I was living in Europe in the early 90's and it was indeed a confusing time. To pretend that it wasn't is naive. 

I do not see anyone saying that Jan did not have the funds to bribe the UCI, but it does appear he had neither the will or the opportunity. The idea that all riders received the same treatment and access is absurd.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

The idea that all riders recieved the same treatment and access is just that, an idea. You and I have no idea what any of these guys did or didn't pay for or arrange privately. The things you believe were payoffs are just as easily to defend as legitimate donations, the only difference is what does or doesn't support the opinions of whoever is considering them.

Pre EPO methods were tremendously effective, so much so that they are still employed in medicine and many other sports.

Hypothetical situation: You and I are equally talented racers and I decide to use steroids and HGH (and whatever else..), I will make gains that would render you completely uncompetitive and there would be no amount of work you could apply to make up the difference because these drugs facilitate my ability to work more than my body would naturally be able to absorb. How can you win?

You're not acknowledging the things that were and are out there.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> The idea that all riders recieved the same treatment and access is just that, an idea. You and I have no idea what any of these guys did or didn't pay for or arrange privately. The things you believe were payoffs are just as easily to defend as legitimate donations, the only difference is what does or doesn't support the opinions of whoever is considering them.
> 
> Pre EPO methods were tremendously effective, so much so that they are still employed in medicine and many other sports.
> 
> ...


Manzano said that USPS would get advanced notice of "Surprise" Testing, Mike Anderson and Floyd Landis confirmed this. Walter Viru was arrested last year for running a doping lab. You are welcome to believe that Armstrong did not receive special treatment but the evidence does not support that myth. 

It is clear you have little knowledge of this topic if you actually think that Test and Cortisone is anywhere close to as effective as EPO.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

55x11 said:


> A cynic in me thinks that athletes in all sports will keep looking for ways to get advantage without being detected. It is human nature.
> 
> As to people who turned on him in 2004 - it was clear he was an arrogant @sshole from day 1. I remember watching his interviews in 1999 on ESPN and thinking: what a jerk. But at least he is our jerk!
> 
> ...


Well put.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ArkRider said:


> Would that not mean that the public should demand that dopers in those sports be aggressively prosecuted as well?
> 
> I may be misreading your post, but it almost sounds like bad conduct being excused because others are exhibiting worse conduct.


He's simply stating that there is a disparity here.

People have some kind of personalized vendetta against LA, so they will pursue and revel in his "downfall."

People have no vendetta against Kobe Bryant or Ben Roethlisberger, Tiger Woods or Barry Bonds, so they don't care.

If people would actually display a little consistency, I'd be able to buy their outrage.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> He's simply stating that there is a disparity here.
> 
> People have some kind of personalized vendetta against LA, so they will pursue and revel in his "downfall."
> 
> ...


This is a cycling forum. Of course we will talk about Armstrong. Barry Bonds is universally hated, more for being a jackass then being a doper. For many it is the same for Armstrong


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> This is a cycling forum. Of course we will talk about Armstrong. Barry Bonds is universally hated, more for being a jackass then being a doper. For many it is the same for Armstrong


Actually, it is the same for a minority of very loudmouthed, very bitter individuals.

It's all so far in the past that it's irrelevant, IMO.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Actually, it is the same for a minority of very loudmouthed, very bitter individuals.
> 
> It's all so far in the past that it's irrelevant, IMO.


Choosing to insult someone because you do not share their views seldom helps your case


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> It is clear you have little knowledge of this topic if you actually think that Test and Cortisone is anywhere close to as effective as EPO.


I never said that I believe LA didn't get advance notice. I don't know either way (despite the information you choose to consider 'fact', neither do you). The point I was making is that you don't know that LA's competition didn't also get advance notice or special treatment. You're putting words in my mouth.

I also never said anything about Test and Cortisone, nor did I directly compare the effectiveness of the drugs I did refer to with EPO, I just stated that they were very effective, to much so for an athlete of equal ability to overcome against another who used them. You are clearly unwilling to consider any information or possibility that does not support your views which is fine I guess, but if you're so bothered by an oppoising view that you'll bend the words from the way their written on the page then it's not worth my time continuing to talk about it with you.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> I never said that I believe LA didn't get advance notice. I don't know either way (despite the information you choose to consider 'fact', neither do you). The point I was making is that you don't know that LA's competition didn't also get advance notice or special treatment. You're putting words in my mouth.
> 
> I also never said anything about Test and Cortisone, nor did I directly compare the effectiveness of the drugs I did refer to with EPO, I just stated that they were very effective, to much so for an athlete of equal ability to overcome against another who used them. You are clearly unwilling to consider any information or possibility that does not support your views which is fine I guess, but if you're so bothered by an oppoising view that you'll bend the words from the way their written on the page then it's not worth my time continuing to talk about it with you.


I have not twisted your views, but you appear to be trying to twist away from your claims. 

You clearly claimed that Pre-EPO drugs were as effective as EPO. You even called me naive to think any different. The fact is EPO changed the sport because such huge gains could be achieved it completely distorted the playing field. Bauer, Hampsten, LeMond, Rooks, Fignon, and many, many others have said the same thing.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Choosing to insult someone because you do not share their views seldom helps your case


What case? The case that I think this investigation is nothing more than a witch hunt? The fact that I think the government should get its nose out of sporting issues?  The same issue I had with their involvement in Balco? 

Or the case that I think that the people calling for LA's head on a platter are zealots?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> What case? The case that I think this investigation is nothing more than a witch hunt? The fact that I think the government should get its nose out of sporting issues? The same issue I had with their involvement in Balco?
> 
> Or the case that I think that the people calling for LA's head on a platter are zealots?


Please share with us what the investigation is about. So far Doug Miller has said nothing. 

When would you be OK with Armstrong, Bruyneel, Weisel, etc being investigated? Or do they all get a pass?


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> What case? The case that I think this investigation is nothing more than a witch hunt? The fact that I think the government should get its nose out of sporting issues? The same issue I had with their involvement in Balco?
> 
> Or the case that I think that the people calling for LA's head on a platter are zealots?



" A witch hunt" Now where I have heard that before.... but you know maybe you are right... IMO I would consider LA a witch....... but this is really just an investigation about laws being broken... And all broken laws investigated are in the past.

"zealots" You are right again... I'm a "truth zealot".. but I don't want his head on a platter... I'd be happy with just the truth to come out.. Why... because people's lifes have been affected and possible ruined by this guy. 

Also consider..... this investigation or witch hunt as you call it is not just about sports... it is about money, alot of money was made either legally or illegally(hence investigation)...... I bet Bernie Madoff wished he would have become involved with LA or the UCI... 

Now go ride your bikes people and I'll ride mine..... I do agree this really doesn't affect me at all.... except that I know a few very good juniors and I really hope that some of this cleans up the sport and USA cycling coaches aren't putting unknown pills in powerbars!


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> He's simply stating that there is a disparity here.
> 
> People have some kind of personalized vendetta against LA, so they will pursue and revel in his "downfall."
> 
> ...


You appear to be the only person who is outraged, apparently with the entire concept of criminal prosecution.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I have not twisted your views, but you appear to be trying to twist away from your claims.
> 
> You clearly claimed that Pre-EPO drugs were as effective as EPO. You even called me naive to think any different. The fact is EPO changed the sport because such huge gains could be achieved it completely distorted the playing field. Bauer, Hampsten, LeMond, Rooks, Fignon, and many, many others have said the same thing.


No, I didn't. I said you what I said, now you have replied (again) with something different than what I said. What I said is in plain English just a few posts ago for anyone to read.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

SilasCL said:


> You appear to be the only person who is outraged, apparently with the entire concept of criminal prosecution.


I have no problem with criminal prosecution. I have a problem with the federal government dicking around with "sporting fraud" as it were, when there are a hell of a lot greater problems out there.

But then again, I'm also not offended by people cheating to provide an awesome spectacle. Hell, we should build a colosseum and pit the Tea Party against the Neo-Libs, jack them all up on HGH and testosterone and watch the fun. 

I'd buy that for $59.95 on PPV.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> No, I didn't. I said you what I said, now you have replied (again) with something different than what I said. What I said is in plain English just a few posts ago for anyone to read.


Here is what you said



davidka said:


> To believe he didn't know is naive as is* believing that pre-EPO methods of doping were so much less effective*..


To which I replied



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yes, Pre-EPO methods had nowhere near the effectiveness of EPO, not even close..


Your reply



davidka said:


> Pre EPO methods were tremendously effective, so much so that they are still employed in medicine and many other sports.
> .


Plain English.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> I have no problem with criminal prosecution. I have a problem with the federal government dicking around with "sporting fraud" as it were, when there are a hell of a lot greater problems out there.
> 
> But then again, I'm also not offended by people cheating to provide an awesome spectacle. Hell, we should build a colosseum and pit the Tea Party against the Neo-Libs, jack them all up on HGH and testosterone and watch the fun.
> 
> I'd buy that for $59.95 on PPV.


I missed the press release were Doug Miller or Jeff Novitzky claimed this was a case of sporting fraud, do you have a link?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> I have no problem with criminal prosecution. I have a problem with the federal government dicking around with "sporting fraud" as it were, when there are a hell of a lot greater problems out there.
> 
> But then again, I'm also not offended by people cheating to provide an awesome spectacle. Hell, we should build a colosseum and pit the Tea Party against the Neo-Libs, jack them all up on HGH and testosterone and watch the fun.
> 
> I'd buy that for $59.95 on PPV.


Are they leaking grand jury documents to you? You seem to have a keen insight on what charges will be filed.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

*Hand on forehead, laughing at something that isn't really funny*.


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