# Carbon Clinchers - Zipp vs ENVE



## Ryan The VW Tech (Mar 19, 2013)

My wife's Kestrel Talon with Zipp Firecrest 404 front and 808 rear carbon clinchers and my Kestrel Talon with ENVE 65/DT 240 carbon clinchers.










































I got my ENVE 65/DT240 combo last fall and my wife got her Firecrest 404/808 combo just recently. I demo'd a set a EVE SES 6.7's before getting my 65's. The 65 is an older design, but it's tried and true and proven to be absolutely bulletproof. I wasn't looking for race day wheels, I wanted everyday wheels. Where as my wife's Firecrest wheels are Zipp's top of the line offering. It's their newest design and the fastest and best handling wheel they have ever made. 

Comparing the two sets the Firecrest is faster and more stable (at speeds of 35+ mph) especially in cross winds, but when comparing it to an older design ENVE wheel the ENVE build quality and fit and finish is unquestionably better than Zipp. Enve quality blows Zipp quality out of the water. For starters, I'll take DT 240 hubs over Zipp's in house hubs anyday of the week. ENVE hides the spoke nipple inside the rim where Zipp has them exposed. ENVE molds the spoke beds into the rim design instead of drilling holes after the rim is made, continuous strands of carbon will always be stronger than carbon that has been cut or drilled strands. More work going into the molding the process will make a better a better product than modifying it after molding. The brake track on the ENVE rims are perfect, you spin the wheel and the track is always looks even at a uniform distance to the edge of the rim. The Zipp's you can see the brake track move slightly when it spins because it's not perfectly centered on the rim itself, it took some trial and error to get the pads set up on the brake track as it wasn't always in the same spot at different points of the rim. I was disappointed to see the Zipps had a couple small little resin droplets here and there, on the brake track no less that made it past their quality control) the ENVEs look perfect. In a truing stand the ENVE rims are arrow straight whereas the Zipps aren't quite perfect, they had some very slight side to side movement at the brake track. Inside the rim holes the ENVEs were very clean while the Zipps had leftover debris from drilling them out.

I love the Firecrest profile and how they ride. I also like the Zipp skewers more than the ENVE ones, they operate smoothers and less gritty feeling in the lever movement than the ENVEs. I like the Zipp packaging and extras a little more. While both included a goody bag with skewers, valve extenders, a spacer to use 10 speed on their 11 speed hubs, ect. The Zipps came with little wrench tools for removing the presta valve cores plus they came with tubes. ENVEs came with the rim strip in place, with Zipps they were included but I had to install them. The Enves also had a hand written card that included the serial numbers and info on the rim build whereas the Zipps were a computer generated sticker on a spoke of each wheel.

I'll be the first to admit I'm being very very critical, but at the price point you're looking a for both sets I feel it's completely justified and within reason. From my demo time with the ENVE's newest SES Smart wheels (a few weeks and using them for Ironman Louisville) the SES is right on par with the Firecrest technology in terms of performance, handling, and how they fair in crosswinds. 

All things considered, in my honest unbiased opinion the ENVE SES Smart wheels are the best route to go. It's Firecrest performance but with build quality and fit and finish that blows Zipp out of the water. Plus they are built on DT hubs that any bike shop anywhere can service without a second thought. Looking back I wish I would have paid a little extra and sprung for a set of the 8.9s for my bike. While I'm very happy with my 65's I would happily return them and pay the difference for some 8.9's if that was an option.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Ryan The VW Tech said:


> All things considered, IMHO the ENVE SES Smart wheels are the best route to go. Firecrest performance but with better build quality, better fit and finish, and hubs that any bike shop anywhere can service without a second thought. Looking back I wish I would have paid a little extra and sprung for a set of the 8.9s for my bike.


Nice write up. I personally agree, I am not a fan of Zipp. I spend a lot of time working on them because they are so popular but I don't have a very good opinion of them. Not as a high end wheel anyway. I consider Zipp middle of the road at best. Our shop is a dealer for both as well as Mavic and Lightweight and Fulcrum, etc. I have to say we sell more Zipps than anything but I cringe inside every time we make that sale. Personally I'm switching all wheels to Dura-Ace, that's my personal choice. Most people I ride with ride on ENVE. The SES 6,7 is by far the most popular choice with the people I ride with, even though we're in the mountains.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Great to hear that you like the Enves! The 65 is a great option but it seems to be overlooked because of the 6.7. I've found I prefer the 3.4s for everyday riding though. 

Are you using your 65s as every day drivers?


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## 06SpiceRed (Aug 3, 2012)

Those look awesome! Im looking at switching to set of Enves as well.

btw OP....you arent DBESTGTI over on Golfmk6 are you?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

MMsRepBike said:


> I am not a fan of Zipp. I spend a lot of time working on them...


Would you please elaborate on this comment regarding Zipp wheels.


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## Ryan The VW Tech (Mar 19, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> Nice write up. I personally agree, I am not a fan of Zipp. I spend a lot of time working on them because they are so popular but I don't have a very good opinion of them. Not as a high end wheel anyway. I consider Zipp middle of the road at best. Our shop is a dealer for both as well as Mavic and Lightweight and Fulcrum, etc. I have to say we sell more Zipps than anything but I cringe inside every time we make that sale. Personally I'm switching all wheels to Dura-Ace, that's my personal choice. Most people I ride with ride on ENVE. The SES 6,7 is by far the most popular choice with the people I ride with, even though we're in the mountains.


I'm (almost) in the mountains as well, I live in Boulder. The 65's I have are a lot more aero, a lot stiffer, a lot more responsive, and TON lighter than the cheap Oval wheels that came with the bike. I'm sure some lighter wheels would climb better but I'm satisfied with these even on big climbs. Flagstaff for example is 2500 feet of elevation gain over 7 miles and I set my personal best time going up after switching to the 65s.


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## Ryan The VW Tech (Mar 19, 2013)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Great to hear that you like the Enves! The 65 is a great option but it seems to be overlooked because of the 6.7. I've found I prefer the 3.4s for everyday riding though.
> 
> Are you using your 65s as every day drivers?


I wouldn't say "every day" as Ironman training has 3 days a week on the bike. I still use my stock wheel for the trainer rides (usually interval training) but literally every single ride I've done outside since getting those wheels has been on those wheels. No issues at all so far.


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## Ryan The VW Tech (Mar 19, 2013)

06SpiceRed said:


> btw OP....you arent DBESTGTI over on Golfmk6 are you?




I'd never go by "Ryan The VW Tech" on a VW forum, my inbox would blow up lol


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## 06SpiceRed (Aug 3, 2012)

Lol I hear ya. I'm MK6T-Red on there. We should get out for a ride sometime!


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Ryan The VW Tech said:


> I wasn't looking for race day wheels, I wanted everyday wheels.


Apparently you and I have very different opinions on what 'everyday' wheels are!

Couple things I would add to the review.

1 - ENVE classic are lighter than the SES. 65 tubular with DT240 = 1355g. SES 6.7 tubular with DT240 = 1549. That's nearly half a pound!

2 - Internal nipples are harder to true, especially on tubulars.

Otherwise enjoy the wheelset!


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

The Zipps have the best aero engineering braking performance. The Enve's are not far behind, and may have better long term durability with regards to the hubs. The hubs have at times been problematic on the Zipps, although the current models are supposedly much better than past designs. Not sure which are more fashionable. That's a call for each prospective buyer will need to make. I only buy for performance and could not care less what they look like. Same for bikes. 

Having said this, I see no advantage in carbon wheels outside racing. Even then the benefit is debatable.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

NealH said:


> The hubs have at times been problematic on the Zipps, although the current models are supposedly much better than past designs.


Haven't they been saying that for 3 years now? The MY2014 hubs seem kinda heavy too.


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## 06SpiceRed (Aug 3, 2012)

Did you ride up to the ampitheatre or the mailboxes? Thats a good climb, I live in Louisville so Im right up the road and frequently head down to the foothills. Are you at Gebhardt? I used to work there and still bring my car down there since all the techs there know me.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

deleted


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

NealH said:


> The Zipps have the best aero engineering braking performance. The Enve's are not far behind, and may have better long term durability with regards to the hubs. The hubs have at times been problematic on the Zipps, although the current models are supposedly much better than past designs. Not sure which are more fashionable. That's a call for each prospective buyer will need to make. I only buy for performance and could not care less what they look like. Same for bikes.


I have a pair of 404 Firecrest and a pair of Enve Smart 3.4. The Enve have superior braking without question, especially when new. Now that I've done a few rainy crits on the Enve wheels, the braking surface is worn smooth but it still outperforms the Zipp which has a grabby, inconsistent feel to it (probably a result of the woven brake track structure Zipp uses). In both cases I'm using the OE pads (Cork and then Platinum Pro for Zipp, Enve stock gray pads).

As for the hubs, I haven't had any issues personally (but half the miles on my 404 rear wheel are with a powertap, as I rebuilt it last season), but when you say "current models are supposedly much better" - keep in mind they have said that every year and they are on like the 9th design iteration of that 188 hub now.

I strongly prefer the serviceability of the Zipp wheel since the nipples aren't internal.


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## Ryan The VW Tech (Mar 19, 2013)

06SpiceRed said:


> Did you ride up to the ampitheatre or the mailboxes? Thats a good climb, I live in Louisville so Im right up the road and frequently head down to the foothills. Are you at Gebhardt? I used to work there and still bring my car down there since all the techs there know me.



The only time I've been to amphitheatre was taking cyclocross bikes up Chapman and then going there. I always go to the mailboxes, if the weather is nice (not crazy wind at the top) I like to go out past Walker Ranch and go to where the road turns to dirt and turn around. Most of my riding tends to be dirt singletrack, I'm a mountain biker, I got into road when I started doing triathlons


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## Bill Mould (May 2, 2014)

ENVE and Zipp are obviously both top-quality producers of carbon, but I also am a big fan of ENVE. A few thoughts to add to the discussion… You can get ENVE titanium skewers quite inexpensively. They are very light and have an excellent cam system for tightening. You can put a lot more tension on ENVE rims than you can with Zipp. The newest version of ENVE nipples are made by Sapim, and they have Sapim's secure lock system built into them. Look for the tiny dent in the side of the nipple. They are brass but without any plating. I don't find internal nipples are a complication as far as servicing wheels. True, you have to take the tire off, but wheels that are properly tensioned don't require much servicing anyway. I've built quite a few ENVE tubular wheels with internal nipples, and I have not yet had to remove a tubular tire just to true a completed wheel.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I'd second Bill Moulds suggestions on the Enve skewers. They seem to be much more abrasion resistant than other skewers I've worked with, and they have a pretty stout clamp force. 

I will say that I'm glad Enve is now using the brass internal nipples. We had a bunch of problems with the older alloy version being corroded by sealant and that's now a non issue thanks to the brass upgrade.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I will say that I'm glad Enve is now using the brass internal nipples. We had a bunch of problems with the older alloy version being corroded by sealant and that's now a non issue thanks to the brass upgrade.


How does sealant get into the nipple area?

Do you know if the 1.65 rim uses brass or alloy nipples.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

deviousalex said:


> How does sealant get into the nipple area?
> 
> Do you know if the 1.65 rim uses brass or alloy nipples.


The issues that we saw were with the 29XC rims. Somehow the sealant was able to get around the layer of Gorilla tape and into the rim itself. And it must have been the ammonia in the old Stans but it corroded the nipples to the point of failure. 

All Enve rims now run the brass self locking Sapims.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

Huge fan of both. I have Enve and Zipp parts spec'd out on my Supersix Evo, but for the wheel choice I went with FC 303s because they are bomb proof.


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## Bill Mould (May 2, 2014)

I'm a big fan of both, too. But, if you want to buy rims separately, for example, to reuse a PowerTap hub with a new carbon rim, I believe that you can't use Zipp because they generally don't sell rims, just whole wheels. ENVE sells both whole wheels and separate rims. I've heard that Zipp was rethinking that policy, but I think it still holds. I have always thought that Zipp's policy, instituted about two years ago, was unfortunate because there are lots of great hubs that people might specifically want with a carbon wheel set.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Bill Mould said:


> I have always thought that Zipp's policy, instituted about two years ago, was unfortunate because there are lots of great hubs that people might specifically want with a carbon wheel set.


And you can bet your money that Zipp hubs are nowhere on that list.


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## EricMoots (Mar 30, 2011)

Wheelbuilder.com has many options to build up custom Zipp wheels with other hubs. I have 303 FC with White T11, best wheels I've ever had. Also allows you to customize the spoke count, I have a 20 front with a 24 rear instead of the typical 18 count front.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

EricMoots said:


> Wheelbuilder.com has many options to build up custom Zipp wheels with other hubs. I have 303 FC with White T11, best wheels I've ever had. Also allows you to customize the spoke count, I have a 20 front with a 24 rear instead of the typical 18 count front.


From what I've seen wheelbuilder are the only people that offer that service. They can't sell you the rim only. So if you want Zipps on non-zipp rims your options are.

1 - Get it from Wheelbuilder.com
2 - Buy any other set, take it apart and rebuild it.


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