# Is Ullrich sandbagging?



## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

Obviously he is not at his Tour weight, but he seemed to have good power today. And then there are the stories that he was freewheeling parts of the Romandie prologue...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*he will use the Giro to ride off*

the excess weight (which he normally does the first week of the TdF which seems to not work for him) and get some real Alpine climbing at race pace in. I think this will get him readier for the tour than anything he's done of late. I think he's on pace and am not gonna bash him unless he shows up at the tour unready to compete. Go Der Kaiser!


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## R.Rice (Aug 23, 2004)

I have read that he apparently has a stage or two later in the Giro that he is going to test his legs.(whatever the hell that means).If he does I am interesed in seeing how he does.

He hasn't really made any obvious huge efforts this year.


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## cadence90 (Sep 12, 2004)

I don't think he's sandbagging at all. I think he's doing exactly what he said he was going to do. That said, depending on how his form develops and how Gonchar goes (I think not to the end) I could see Ullrich lighting it up on, maybe on a post-Corones stage, mainly to really test Basso's resolve and plant some seeds for the Tour battles to come.

Basso is being very circumspect in his interviews, and he's right: it's very early still.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

I'm sure that Jan will go full out on some of the mountain stages to see how he does and to get the training benefit. I doubt that he will care about how he does on most of the stages as he is just trying to increase his fitness and some 'easy' days are necessary for recovery.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

i'd say no way...and call today what you will but i was impressed with der kaiser. t-mob only 1 sec back of csc with barely 5 at the line? not too shabby...jan is looking fine...


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## Truth Hurts (Oct 28, 2005)

He's only 1:20 back, not bad for a fat guy. 

Get ready for a great TdF.

Sandbagging nope.....enjoying


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Truth Hurts said:


> He's only 1:20 back, not bad for a fat guy.
> 
> Get ready for a great TdF.
> 
> Sandbagging nope.....enjoying


Well, if Ulle was getting dropped on flat sprinter stages, this would be just scandalous!
He is no Ivan Quaranta.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

yeah, but it was a team effort, remember? 
Today we discovered that T-mobile has some good team trial riders, and that apparently Ullrich is one of the top 5 strongest riders in his own team. That's all.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

55x11 said:


> Today we discovered that T-mobile has some good team trial riders, and that apparently Ullrich is one of the top 5 strongest riders in his own team. That's all.


But that is a lot. Rogers came to the Giro with the aim of winning the prologue and the ITT. Gonchar is the designated GC man and seems to be in good shape. By the team's time we can assume that the team is in good form. Ullrich, who is supposedly out of shape, was hammering the rest of the team. Despite his placing in Romandie, it does not look like he is in as bad as shape as some would believe.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

*nope.*



Under ACrookedSky said:


> Obviously he is not at his Tour weight, but he seemed to have good power today. And then there are the stories that he was freewheeling parts of the Romandie prologue...


he is going to ride into shape


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## Guest (May 12, 2006)

R.Rice said:


> He hasn't really made any obvious huge efforts this year.


Seems like he did just that today: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=624753&postcount=22


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## telecaster (Feb 26, 2004)

He's only a few seconds behind Cunego. Not bad for a guy that's just here to get into shape for the Tour. Let's see what he does in the mountains. I, for one, believe that his decision to ride this Giro was a smart one and I'd love to see him take a stage or two.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Are we over analyzing???

fc


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## Guest (May 12, 2006)

francois said:


> Are we over analyzing???


Of course, isn't that what we're supposed to do around here?


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## tube_ee (Aug 25, 2003)

Didn't Jan ride the Giro for Bianchi? You know, the May before he gave Lance the hardest race of LA's career? Seems to me like that might be a working formula for Jan. You know, I wonder if we won't see more of that anyway. Teams are having to ride more races, despite the I-still-don't-understand-it condition of the ProTour. And it's always been said that riding a three-week race makes deep changes in a rider's body. Maybe Jan needs racing to give him the kind of hard miles that Lance could put in in training. 


Disclosure: I'm rooting for two things in July: A great Tour, won by Jan Ullrich. I've always thought he got a bad rap for never beating Lance. You know, maybe he was just the second-best Tour rider of his generation. I always figured that the reason he never beat him was simply that Lance was always that tiny fraction better. But in most of the Tours they raced together, Ullrich and Armstrong were clearly the class of the field. Nobody else was close. I want him to go out from the top step of the podium. Win the Tour, set the hour record, and retire

--Shannon.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*Jan the man*

I agree w/ Shannon.
I'm rooting for Jan too.

MD


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## TitaniumFemur (Oct 19, 2004)

tube_ee said:


> Didn't Jan ride the Giro for Bianchi? You know, the May before he gave Lance the hardest race of LA's career? Seems to me like that might be a working formula for Jan. You know, I wonder if we won't see more of that anyway. Teams are having to ride more races, despite the I-still-don't-understand-it condition of the ProTour. And it's always been said that riding a three-week race makes deep changes in a rider's body. Maybe Jan needs racing to give him the kind of hard miles that Lance could put in in training.
> 
> Disclosure: I'm rooting for two things in July: A great Tour, won by Jan Ullrich. I've always thought he got a bad rap for never beating Lance. You know, maybe he was just the second-best Tour rider of his generation. I always figured that the reason he never beat him was simply that Lance was always that tiny fraction better. But in most of the Tours they raced together, Ullrich and Armstrong were clearly the class of the field. Nobody else was close. I want him to go out from the top step of the podium. Win the Tour, set the hour record, and retire
> 
> --Shannon.


No - Ullrich didn't ride the Giro Italia in 2003. He rode the TdS that year.


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## Laurent Fignewton (Nov 11, 2005)

At Armstrong's retirement bash in Paris after last year's TdF, Ullrich in a farewell speech to LA said that he'd always tried his best to beat Lance, but Lance was better. Hats off to Ullrich for having an even-keel perspective on this, and not succumbing to the enormous pressure put on him by the media. Frankly, it's amazing that he stays so cool and still calls his own shots. I couldn't, with that kind of pressure on me.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

What do you mean by sandbagging?

Do you mean playing possum to spring a big surprise in the GC race? Exceedingly unlikely and not realistic. His power may be good but he is clearly still several kgs from any kind of weight that he would need to be competitive especially given the many days in the last week with steep climbs.

He will probably only give a 100% effort in the TT and then ride within himself in the mountains so as not to over extend himself on his way to peak form at the Tour. If he finishes the Giro it will be mission accomplished, and if he doesn't it still isn't really alarm bell time (yet).


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## rule (Dec 2, 2004)

No, he's three weeks off of his race prep schedule after injury and is working his way back. And yeah, I wouldn't count him out just yet either.


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## carlos (May 26, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> What do you mean by sandbagging?
> 
> Do you mean playing possum to spring a big surprise in the GC race? Exceedingly unlikely and not realistic. His power may be good but he is clearly still several kgs from any kind of weight that he would need to be competitive especially given the many days in the last week with steep climbs.
> 
> He will probably only give a 100% effort in the TT and then ride within himself in the mountains so as not to over extend himself on his way to peak form at the Tour. If he finishes the Giro it will be mission accomplished, and if he doesn't it still isn't really alarm bell time (yet).



come on, tell us how do you know ullrich is "several kgs" overweigth???? do you know his actual weight and his tour de france weight?? :mad2:


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Looks like he did some damage on the front today*

most likely just for a leg check


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

CN said jan was actually spinning at one point. i found that amusing. and from the reports he was out on front leading the chase. i think the diesel is the one who started to string out the peloton.

as far as being second best to lance, remember that cycling is a team event. when comparing those two people seem to forget postal/disco had some great riders, great tactics, and great luck. not that bianchi/telekom/tmobile didn't, but you need all ingredients to make it. 

and i do hope jan has a good tour. i hope basso has a good tour. as much as i like CSC and prefer them to TMobile, it would be nice to see jan bookend armstrong's career. plus it would be nice to see jan beat basso after lance said basso would win after he retired.

im still upset about that podium "speech." and he shoulda done some of it in french, just to keep the french press happy.

speaking of french press, i think i need some coffee.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

weltyed said:


> im still upset about that podium "speech." and he shoulda done some of it in french, just to keep the french press happy.


Why should Lance have spoken in French? He just wanted to piss off the French. And he certainly didn't owe the French press anything.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i guess i shouldnt have said "shoulda." would have been nice to see him say a few things in french. i have seen him do full interviews in french, so i know he knows it. just would have been a nice little nod, i guess.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

Yup, he has been sandbagging. He either got in amazing shape in two weeks, or his so called 'catastrophic' form and being weeks behind in training has been overblown by his team. He seems to be using smaller gears than usual, also.

He has to be one of the favorites for the ITT now.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Do you mean playing possum to spring a big surprise in the GC race?


No, of course not. He is obviously not at race weight. But he seems to be in much better condition than we have been led to believe.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> No, of course not. He is obviously not at race weight. But he seems to be in much better condition than we have been led to believe.


Led to believe by whom? Seriously...not trying to start anything but I haven't read anything that that said his condition was suspect except on this board. There werer plenty of reports of him actually training HARD this off season and that the T-Mob training camps were very intense. The only report that his condition was wavering was his knee but that was not in relation to his fitness except that he probably couldn't train as hard as he'd like this past month. However, usually this time of year he's trying to drop too much weight and losing power along with. The past month actual might prove to his advantage. He showed up in shape and looked very fit at Romandie...

Go Jan!!!


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

chuckice said:


> Led to believe by whom? Seriously...not trying to start anything but I haven't read anything that that said his condition was suspect except on this board. There werer plenty of reports of him actually training HARD this off season and that the T-Mob training camps were very intense. The only report that his condition was wavering was his knee but that was not in relation to his fitness except that he probably couldn't train as hard as he'd like this past month. However, usually this time of year he's trying to drop too much weight and losing power along with. The past month actual might prove to his advantage. He showed up in shape and looked very fit at Romandie...
> 
> Go Jan!!!


By Lance Armstrong. Earlier this week...it's a conspiracy!


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

carlos said:


> come on, tell us how do you know ullrich is "several kgs" overweigth???? do you know his actual weight and his tour de france weight?? :mad2:


Enough with the weight already. Whatever his weight is, he is not in top shape - otherwise he would have flexed his muscle during prologue. Romandie might have been a fluke, but Giro prologue showed he is quite behind. If Basso or Valverde or Lance was this far back so late in the season, we would not be cutting them as much slack. Saying that Ullrich "always does this" is not an excuse - like he did so well with his lack of preparation in the past 7 years. I hope he can make up the ground and get into solid shape. But so far he has been really unimpressive this season, and to make being out of shape as some sort of grand plan really shows the great lengths some people will go to, in liking to root for Jan, the penultimate underdog. 

I hope Jan makes up the diffeence, but it's sort of like rooting for a student who didn't do his homework and now has to cram overnight for an exam, saying that he is so smart, he can do it with just a few hours of studying. With the millions T-mobile has been paying him, this is, what is the word, "unprofessional"?


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## TitaniumFemur (Oct 19, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Enough with the weight already. Whatever his weight is, he is not in top shape - otherwise he would have flexed his muscle during prologue. Romandie might have been a fluke, but Giro prologue showed he is quite behind. If Basso or Valverde or Lance was this far back so late in the season, we would not be cutting them as much slack. Saying that Ullrich "always does this" is not an excuse - like he did so well with his lack of preparation in the past 7 years. I hope he can make up the ground and get into solid shape. But so far he has been really unimpressive this season, and to make being out of shape as some sort of grand plan really shows the great lengths some people will go to, in liking to root for Jan, the penultimate underdog.
> 
> I hope Jan makes up the diffeence, but it's sort of like rooting for a student who didn't do his homework and now has to cram overnight for an exam, saying that he is so smart, he can do it with just a few hours of studying. With the millions T-mobile has been paying him, this is, what is the word, "unprofessional"?


What I don't get is why some people think Ullrich should be in top shape for the Giro Italia   Ullrich's performance (or lack thereof) in Romandie was no fluke - he wasn't riding for GC then, he isn't riding for GC now. Only an idiot would go into red zone without GC or stage winning ambitions when trying to get early season race miles. 

Yes - it is May already, but so what? Ullrich is a known late starter - he was in worse shape in much later of the year in 2001, where his ride wasn't bad at all. I really don't care either way - his form is his form, unless we have access to his powermeter data - we really don't know jack about his form in May based on his riding (barring any catastrophic end to his particpation in the Giro or some splendid victory).


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## R.Rice (Aug 23, 2004)

55x11 said:


> like he did so well with his lack of preparation in the past 7 years


Yeah,he did so horribly getting second several times behind a rider and team that was basically unbeatable.:thumbsup: 

This thread keeps going in circles.There are those of us that are waiting to see.There are those of you that act as if you know first hand he is out of shape and a slacker.

Fact is,none of us know.Like Titanium said,he has no reason to go into the red day after day or even in the prologue to "flex his muscle".IF he lays it all out on a stage later in the Giro and looks like sh1t it STILL won't be an indicator.Anyone remember Lance getting whooped in an uphill ITT a few years back then going on to destroy everyone in the TDF?


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

55x11: Armstrong has been attacked a several times the last couple years when people didn't think he was up to speed. Off the top of my head, 2004 DLD when Hamilton and Mayo put an ass kicking on him during the Mt Ventoux TT. All of his prep in 2005 (TdG for instance).


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

*Winner of stage 11*

So he'll have to battle it out with Rogers and Savoldelli, but it wouldn't surprise me it he does it. It's a no lose situation. Ullrich gets a chance to stick a dagger into Basso and put doubts into his mind; and if he doesn't do well then he was just going easy for training purposes.


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## Truth Hurts (Oct 28, 2005)

You guys seem to forget that he rides in wearing a pink kit. It is pretty hard to flex your muscle wearing pink. I believe that is why his "head" doctor is traveling with him. She is trying to remind him that he does not have to wear black and red to be a man.

.......... and it is going to work. He will be on the top step of the podium this year. Basso looks good today, maybe a little too good.

TH


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## cydswipe (Mar 7, 2002)

*Sandbagging?*

Hell yes he's sandbagging! He could eat A LOT more if he wanted to!  He's in good form and will be ready for le tour. Jan is a force.


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> Obviously he is not at his Tour weight, but he seemed to have good power today. And then there are the stories that he was freewheeling parts of the Romandie prologue...



Why, did he register for a race as a Cat IV?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> 55x11: Armstrong has been attacked a several times the last couple years when people didn't think he was up to speed. Off the top of my head, 2004 DLD when Hamilton and Mayo put an ass kicking on him during the Mt Ventoux TT. All of his prep in 2005 (TdG for instance).


That's an excellent example to prove my point! Armstrong, who won Libere in 2002 and 2003, and was always in fairly good but not super-top shape, was slightly behind his schedule - he was still 3rd in prologue in 2004 and 5th on Mt. Ventoux TT. He was always in top 5 in 2004. And man, oh man, did people rip him a new one for being "out of shape" that year!
Compare this to Ullrich, who loses not 2 seconds, but more like a minute in prologue, and is nowhether near the top 20 this year. And people rationalize that as part of grand plan.

I wonder how many people who claim Ulle will be on form in July and that this is all part of his planned preparation specifically for the Tour were dismissing LA for prepararing for "one race only" and not doing Giro, Vuelta or dominating the classics (a-la 1970ies and Merckx). Because at least LA was on form for all races he showed up for. And if he chose to ride Libere, he would be one of the top contenders. Ullrich seems to be missing the checks by a lot, and no amount of spinning (of the facts) will make me think that this is as things should be. Ullrich is either extremely unprofessional rider uncapable to control his own training schedule, his weight and his form, or he is the unluckiest most talented rider ever. But as they say in golf - the harder you work, the luckier you become. So in the end, I am going to go with the theory that somehow Ullrich is not as good in planning his training as most other riders. He may be in top 1% talent-wise, but he is also in bottom 1% preparation/motivation-wise, within the peloton.


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## Guest (May 15, 2006)

The guy's had problems with injuries this year. So, the form he has now is the best it can be. He seemed really motivated this year, but luck wasn't with him (wasn't last year either, crashing into the back of the team car - damn!).

Any way, the proof of whether or not he has form will be in July - and that's all that matters.


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## RollingRook (Apr 25, 2006)

Going to the Giro to prepare?! Isn’t this arrogant? Aren’t there guys in T-Mobile who would give anything to ride in a Grand Tour? To deprive them of maybe once in a life chance, just to train is cruel. What does the team gain from all that? Well, we are here discussing about him, others open TV just to see Ulrich, but still, I believe this is unethical at least and of dubious sporting value.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

RollingRook said:


> Well, we are here discussing about him, others open TV just to see Ulrich, but still, I believe this is unethical at least and of dubious sporting value.


Ultimately, riders only get paid to get advertising exposure for the team sponsors. If Ulrich dropped out today he would have already got T-mobile, etc. more press and TV time than any other rider on the team. The italian cameramen get him in their lenses several times during every stage, it's noteworthy when he goes off the back on a climb (the cameras are on him, cyclingnews.com mentions it, etc.). 

And it's not like he's been useless. He did domestique work for Pollack and Gonchar, he was one of the 4 riders to finish in front on the TTT, he'll probably get a decent result in the ITT on Thursday. He might even have a go in a break if he's feeling OK in the final week.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

55x11 said:


> He may be in top 1% talent-wise, but he is also in bottom 1% preparation/motivation-wise, within the peloton.


 I realize you are just trying to get a point through some very thick and physiologically ignorant skulls, but Jan's preparation is probably no worse than bottom 1/3 of the peloton and maybe even bottom 1/2. It doesn't take that much of a drift from optimal for results to fall sharply.

Jan's real problem is he wants to win but he doesn't need to. It's a sign of good mental health and I wouldn't pick him to follow Ocana, Gaul, Pantani, Clavyrolet, or any of the suicides post retirement because of it, but that lack of need is what keeps him from ever applying himself fully to the task of preparation and leads to his "bad luck" which to me is mostly unconscious self sabotage to avoid something he doesn't really like doing.

Now LA, especially if he doesn't stay very busy, I can see winding up pushing a shopping cart around Austin with his crack ho girlfriend muttering about conspiracies and enemies around every corner. :-o


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## JBergland (Feb 13, 2004)

AJL said:


> Any way, the proof of whether or not he has form will be in July - and that's all that matters.


I would definitely agree with this statement… July will tell all!! 

However, if Jan isn’t able to TT and climb during the last week of the Giro, there will only be a limited about that he will be able to improve by July. The reality is Jan’s main competition at the Tour is currently leading the Giro… with relative ease. 

JB


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

JBergland said:


> I would definitely agree with this statement… July will tell all!!
> 
> However, if Jan isn’t able to TT and climb during the last week of the Giro, there will only be a limited about that he will be able to improve by July. The reality is Jan’s main competition at the Tour is currently leading the Giro… with relative ease.
> 
> JB


Oh I don't know about that. His performance so far almost certainly is above what he's been at in some previous years at this time of the year. Seems like he's looked relatively bad much closer to the Tour and still managed to come up with the goods in July.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Dwayne - what performances are those? This year I mean. I am being serious - he hasn't really shown anything so far. People point to TTT, but it's really hard to say how much of it was Rogers/Honchar and others, and how much of it was Ulle.

Typically he does really well at TdS as his tune-up - with a few stage wins, solid ITT and top finish overal. Let's see if he can do it this year - rumor is though, he is not going to even start.


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## Guest (May 16, 2006)

Ulle was pulling hard in the TTT - one of his teammates mentioned that. It would be nice to see at least a top 10 ITT peformance from him Thursday - that would a good indication that his form is improving. I've also read that he won't be doing the TdS - too close to the end of the Giro??? I don't know. Again, we'll just have to wait and see what happens.


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## RollingRook (Apr 25, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> And it's not like he's been useless. He did domestique work for Pollack and Gonchar, he was one of the 4 riders to finish in front on the TTT, *he'll probably get a decent result in the ITT on Thursday*. He might even have a go in a break if he's feeling OK in the final week.


Well he did! Have to admit, I am impressed! Looking forward to see him in a break.


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## erol/frost (May 30, 2004)

July will tell all.


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## The The (Sep 9, 2002)

There are a lot of people here who seem to have all the answers. Based on what tangible evidence? Perhaps past precedent means quite a bit, and perhaps we can say he probably isn't in top form because he is quite far down the GC in the Giro, but does that give anyone enough ammunition to denigrate him and his "form" for the TdF? I think the only people who will do that are the ones who just don't like him and don't want him to win. 

I have always been of the mind that there's no point drawing conclusions this long before the Tour, because we just don't know how things will pan out. We must also remember that past precedent might not help either. Armstrong was the dominator for seven years; no one could touch him and only Ullrich and a few others came close. So why aren't the others being criticised for their poor performance? Ullrich isn't the only one who couldn't topple Lance in the TdF GC, but he perhaps came closer than anyone else. So does that mean the other guys who finished on the podium had a poor work ethic as well?


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## Guest (May 21, 2006)

The definite article has spoken!


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## carlos (May 26, 2004)

The The said:


> There are a lot of people here who seem to have all the answers. Based on what tangible evidence? Perhaps past precedent means quite a bit, and perhaps we can say he probably isn't in top form because he is quite far down the GC in the Giro, but does that give anyone enough ammunition to denigrate him and his "form" for the TdF? I think the only people who will do that are the ones who just don't like him and don't want him to win.
> 
> I have always been of the mind that there's no point drawing conclusions this long before the Tour, because we just don't know how things will pan out. We must also remember that past precedent might not help either. Armstrong was the dominator for seven years; no one could touch him and only Ullrich and a few others came close. So why aren't the others being criticised for their poor performance? Ullrich isn't the only one who couldn't topple Lance in the TdF GC, but he perhaps came closer than anyone else. So does that mean the other guys who finished on the podium had a poor work ethic as well?


excellent point. :thumbsup:


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