# BROKE CARBON FELT, Bran New no warranty



## Triggrr (Dec 4, 2011)

I know a girl that just bought her 1st bike. She got a nice Felt Z6. After waiting for the bike to arrive the first and second rides went great (about 25 miles combined). She then took the bike to her first duathlon in south Ga. 40 miles in the rear derailleur hanger broke and the chain cut into the frame. Felt said that it is not covered under warranty and that She will have to buy a new frame. The LBS (Roswell Bikes, where she purchased it) said they feel bad for her and will only charge 50% to change the components. I say Felt should step up and fix the girls bike. What do you think? I ride a Felt and I'm pretty pissed about this. May be changing brands soon.....


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

It depends on who built it and what exactly caused the problem. It doesn't sound like it's an issue with Felt (as in not a manufacturers defect), but instead with whoever assembled/adjusted the bike - or more specifically, the rear derailleur. 

I think Felt has a crash replacement program for a lower cost replacement.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Most if not all warranties have an exclusion if the bike is used in racing. What explanation did Felt give for refusing her claim?

Felt is a reputable company and make good bikes.


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## Triggrr (Dec 4, 2011)

@Joels, It is a stock bike from Felt. LBS fit her and adjusted. It sounds to me like a manufactures defect all the way. If a 115 lbs girl on her 3rd ride ever is busting parts then us 200 lb'ers are in trouble just sitting on it. @Cinelli82220, Kinda wondered about the race thing, Felt was at the race so the seen it there. I'm not sure of the explanation but I can say, If It were mine and I had to but a new frame It would not be a Felt. What happens in the next 75 miles if it does it again.... fool me once...........


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## Triggrr (Dec 4, 2011)

I know a girl that just bought her 1st bike. She got a nice Felt Z6. After waiting for the bike to arrive the first and second rides went great (about 25 miles combined). She then took the bike to her first duathlon in south Ga. 40 miles in the rear derailleur hanger broke and the chain cut into the frame. Felt said that it is not covered under warranty and that She will have to buy a new frame. The LBS (Roswell Bikes, where she purchased it) said they feel bad for her and will only charge 50% to change the components. I say Felt should step up and fix the girls bike. What do you think? I ride a Felt and I'm pretty pissed about this. May be changing brands soon.....


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## gtran1502 (Aug 20, 2008)

If it was a material or design defect or the lbs messed up while building it, then yes they should take care of it. If she was at fault in any way, then probably not. Maybe some more details before you try to insight something.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

derailleur hangers don't just break on their own 40miles in to a ride. something happened to lead to it breaking, i promise you. either she dropped the bike on the drive side, or someone banged into it while it was in transition, but there is NO WAY the hanger just 'broke'. after 20yrs of bike industry employment and nearly 10yrs working for pro teams, i can tell you this w/ absolute certainty. without knowing any details at all, i can guess at the most likely scenario. the hanger became bent due to some kind of impact...your friend shifted into one of the larger cogs and the derailleur went into the spokes...we already know how this ended up. another option could be that the shop that sold her the bike didn't adjust the derailleur limit screws correctly, but this would involve her doing those first 2 rides without ever shifting into that gear. bike companies get claims like this so often there is a special term to describe it...it's known in the business as "JRA"...just riding along. 
talk to your friend and ask her whether it's possible the bike fell over or another bike had banged into it while it was in the transition area. or whether she transported it to the race inside her car. do not go on a rant blaming it on Felt when the odds of that being the case are about 1 in a million.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

If there was no crash involved, that's a disgrace. Defective hanger or bad assembly by an authorized dealer--either way Felt should make this good at no charge. 

I've put in many thousands of miles on Felt bikes with no problems, and I have friends who have had great warranty support from them. I also have a friend who runs a LBS who has nothing good to say about Felt from a dealer's standpoint and quit carrying them.


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## Triggrr (Dec 4, 2011)

LBS and Felt have pretty much said they can't help her (except for 50% off rebuild). What other details could be needed? Bracket broke, chain came off and cut the frame. I'm not sure how you could knock a new chain off going down the road. My thought is the bracket had to break first but, I'm also a newbee so what do I know... However, If you buy a new bike to ride on the road and it breaks (catestrophic failure) while riding on the road. Something Ain't right.... I stay away from LBS and Felt.. Just saying.........


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doesn't sound like a manufacturer's defect. If the derailleur hit the spokes and got yanked into the frame then it has either been:
a. adjusted incorrectly (end-points) and shifted into the spokes - shop's fault
b. damaged by mishandling (bent derailleur hangar) and shifted into the spokes - owner's fault

Both are unfortunate but if the frame were defective in a way that could have caused this then it would have been very apparent during assembly and adjustment at the shop. If they missed it then that's their fault too. They certified the assembly. 

If you liked your Felt before this, keep it. They'd back a legitimate warranty claim, just like any other quality brand would.


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## Triggrr (Dec 4, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> derailleur hangers don't just break on their own 40miles in to a ride. something happened to lead to it breaking, i promise you. either she dropped the bike on the drive side, or someone banged into it while it was in transition, but there is NO WAY the hanger just 'broke'. after 20yrs of bike industry employment and nearly 10yrs working for pro teams, i can tell you this w/ absolute certainty. without knowing any details at all, i can guess at the most likely scenario. the hanger became bent due to some kind of impact...your friend shifted into one of the larger cogs and the derailleur went into the spokes...we already know how this ended up. another option could be that the shop that sold her the bike didn't adjust the derailleur limit screws correctly, but this would involve her doing those first 2 rides without ever shifting into that gear. bike companies get claims like this so often there is a special term to describe it...it's known in the business as "JRA"...just riding along.
> talk to your friend and ask her whether it's possible the bike fell over or another bike had banged into it while it was in the transition area. or whether she transported it to the race inside her car. do not go on a rant blaming it on Felt when the odds of that being the case are about 1 in a million.



Good stuff.... I may be out of line but I tend to see things at face value. If I do a job I am expected to stand behind it.. Just thought everyone else my hold the same value. I'm not sure where the break is, I will get a picture and let you know. I will also get more info about the short history of the bike. Thanks for the thoughts...........


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## SOME_1_ELSE_1999 (Apr 22, 2011)

thats what happens normally when you ride a carbon bike in the sunlight.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Triggrr said:


> LBS and Felt have pretty much said they can't help her (except for 50% off rebuild). *What other details could be needed*? Bracket broke, chain came off and cut the frame. I'm not sure how you could knock a new chain off going down the road. My thought is the bracket had to break first but, I'm also a newbee so what do I know... However, If you buy a new bike to ride on the road and it breaks (catestrophic failure) while riding on the road. Something Ain't right.... I stay away from LBS and Felt.. Just saying.........


how about the details that i specifically asked about? as i said previously, derailleur hangers don't just break on their own. not to sound like an *ss, but you, as a self-described newb, don't really know what you're talking about in this situation. modern composite bicycle frames have soft aluminum derailleur hangers to prevent (as you now know) expensive frame breakages. they are made w/ the specific intent for them to bend and/or break when impacted and in most normal situations this saves the frame rather than breaks it. IF the hanger had been previously bent and your friend didn't realize it, and the hanger then broke...how is that possibly the fault of Felt? the part did it's job by bending and not (at that instant) ruining the frame. trust me...i see this type of thing happen all the time. your friend is in no way the first person to suffer this mishap. but it is most certainly not Felt's fault.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Triggrr said:


> Good stuff.... I may be out of line but I tend to see things at face value. If I do a job I am expected to stand behind it.. Just thought everyone else my hold the same value. I'm not sure where the break is, I will get a picture and let you know. I will also get more info about the short history of the bike. Thanks for the thoughts...........


cool, that will help a lot. i just replied to your other post before reading this, so don't take that one too seriously. i'm pretty sure you'll be able to find out something that will help explain why this happened. it does suck, but believe me...it happens ALL the time.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

What david said, and what cx said in the other thread. This was not a defective bike. May have been improperly assembled, or the hanger may have bent in handling by your friend - resulting in shifting into the spokes.

It's impossible to know without more info.


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## Snowonder (Jun 24, 2010)

Triggr,

You said "she tarveled to south Ga." for the duathlon. How did she travel with the bike? Is there a chance it was mishandled in transit? I would still hate to think that it would end up in such a way unless it was grossly mishandled.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

The OP didn't sat anything about the derailleur hitting the spokes.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Fireform said:


> The OP didn't sat anything about the derailleur hitting the spokes.


when the hanger breaks or severely bends, the derailleur may be getting into the wheels binding the chain and breaking.

I've had it happen doing technical mtb'ing










and bent a spoke


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

FWIW, I've been around bikes a long time and have done all my own mechanical work from almost Day 1 tutored by experienced shop techs, and CXWrench is giving you the straight story. There is a VERY TINY chance that, as has been said, the LBS didn't adjust the lower limit screw on the RD correctly and your friend hadn't shifted to the largest cog in the two previous rides, but the burden of proof is most assuredly on her. It's even less likely that the failure has anything to do with Felt and in that remote case, the LBS should have caught it when they built-up the frame. Neither Felt nor the LBS can be responsible for any and all imponderable events that can happen to a bike once it leaves their hands. OTOH if by 50% off a rebuild you mean on the frame too, that's a pretty decent deal. Sux, but stuff does happen.


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## srosenfeld (Sep 21, 2009)

Just had something like this happen to me -- my rear derailleur went into the spokes and then damaged my carbon frame. Don't know the cause, but I did find a workable and cost-effective solution. Rather than replacing the $$$ frame, I had it repaired by Calfee. They warranty their work for 10 yrs, and the repair was only a few hundred dollars. Doesn't answer the OP's question as to who is at fault, but hopefully gives the girl another option.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

FWIW, It's not too uncommon for the rear DR to take a hit (crashing, the bike falling over, getting banged in handling, etc.), the hanger get bent inward, and the chain subsequently go off the inside of the big cog or the RD get caught in the spokes.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Given the uhm "excitement" that often surrounds a transition at a try/duathlon... you don't think there's a chance the bike was impacted in that mass rack? Either she bumped a bike/pole on the way or way out of the rack? Or another racer bumped her bike on the way in or out?


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

Before buying a new frame, check with Frank at Spyder Composites on a repair. They fixed a shattered seat stay on my Cervelo R3 to "good as new" condition for $160 including paint. (About 1/3rd what Calfee wanted for the repair.)


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

*Been down this road*

As a shop owner I came across this a few years back. I had a customer pick up his brand new carbon Orbea road bike which I built. He had the bike for 2 weeks and then came back with the rear derailleur mangled and the rear triangle cracked. He insisted he had done no wrong even though I could see chunks missing out of the rear derailleur where I felt it had fallen over. This is where it gets sticky because I had no way to "prove" that.
So, now it boils down to what I want to do as the owner of the shop and how much I value this customers business. This guy had already bought 2 nice road bikes from me in the past 5 years (one for himself and one for his wife) and this was an upgrade for him. He always paid full retail for everything and never asked for a discount. I felt he had been a very loyal customer over the years (lot's of tune work as well) and it was in my best interest to make this right for him. I ate the cost of a new frame for him, rebuilt it and sent him out a very happy and relieved man. I have no doubt since then I've recouped the cash I lost in that deal and have made much more from his business and his promotion of our great customer service.
I'm not advocating all shops should do this for everyone (I wouldn't either). Again this was a great and loyal customer. The problem is these days those are very few and far between. With most folks looking for the "best" price now days you lose out on building these personal relationships and thus most shops are not willing to go the extra mile.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

RJP Diver said:


> Before buying a new frame, check with Frank at Spyder Composites on a repair. They fixed a shattered seat stay on my Cervelo R3 to "good as new" condition for $160 including paint. (About 1/3rd what Calfee wanted for the repair.)


+1 -- I was going to suggest getting the frame repaired. It's a lot cheaper than a new one, and the work I see from some of these carbon repair outfits is pretty incredible. The LBS will rebuild the repaired frame for 50% off -- your friend could only be out a few hundred bucks.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

rcharrette said:


> So, now it boils down to what I want to do as the owner of the shop and how much I value this customers business.


That's exactly how it is. Sometimes it's actually better to honor someone's obviously bogus claim rather than fight it.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Triggrr said:


> I say Felt should step up and fix the girls bike. What do you think? I ride a Felt and I'm pretty pissed about this. May be changing brands soon.....
> 
> My thought is the bracket had to break first but, I'm also a newbee so what do I know...
> However, If you buy a new bike to ride on the road and it breaks (catestrophic failure)
> ...


As a self descibed noob, you really should educate yourself before shooting from the hip, badmouthing Felt, and making rash decisions to change brands soon.

You are 10,000% wrong that the bracket broke first. It did not happen that way. The derailleur hanger is a hunk of aluminum. Either forged aluminum or CNC-machined 7075 aluminum. That doesn't just break. I challange you to buy one and see how many wacks with a hammer it takes to break it.









What happened was the chain/derailleur became tangled and broke off the derailleur hanger. Felt had nothing to do with that. The hanger is designed to break off (by design) when this happens to help prevent frame damge. Unfortunaltey there's no guarantee that there will be no damage.
We can only speculate what caused it to happen (as others have posted possible causes). But either the bike was not properly set up by the LBS or the rider caused it.



cxwrench said:


> another option could be that the shop that sold her the bike didn't adjust the derailleur limit screws correctly, but this would involve her doing those first 2 rides without ever shifting into that gear.


I have seen limits that were just a hair over where they should be. If you shift slowly all works fine. But shift fast and jump through a bunch of gears, the chain will jump past the limit and fall off.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

tednugent said:


> Bent a spoke


Stout... apparently not stout enough! 

Another possibility is that the chain was adjusted too short and that caused the derailleur to come apart, bend and break the hanger, and then the chain went into the frame.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

For UK Folks:
In the UK, for the first 6 Months the burden of proof is on the LBS (Seller) to prove that it _wasn't_ a manufacturing/assembly fault.

The Sale of Goods Act also states that you do not _ever_ have to deal with the manufacturer when you have warranty/quality issues, your contract is with the seller. 

Other countries have different laws, but here in the UK if you know your onions there is no way that a LBS can fob off a customer.


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## philbennett (Jan 20, 2012)

Fireform said:


> If there was no crash involved, that's a disgrace. Defective hanger or bad assembly by an authorized dealer--either way Felt should make this good at no charge.
> 
> I've put in many thousands of miles on Felt bikes with no problems, and I have friends who have had great warranty support from them. I also have a friend who runs a LBS who has nothing good to say about Felt from a dealer's standpoint and quit carrying them.



Why should Felt be liable for an LBS installation error?
Regardless, I'm not buying it. Chances are 97 percent or so that something happened after the bike left the dealer, something not related to an installation issue or a manufacturers defect.
Not knowing much about mechanical stuff really is no excuse for the owner or OP to instantly feel Felt owes her. I'd like to hear a diagnosis from someone who is qualified. This isn't rocket science.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

albert owen said:


> here in the UK if you know your onions there is no way that a LBS can fob off a customer.


Great, but we really don't know for sure if an LBS (or Felt, for that matter) is fobbing off a customer at all. The original poster merely said that he knows a girl who broke a rear derailleur on her frame. He then claimed knowledge of what Felt and the LBS said, but did not explain how he came about this knowledge. So all we have is second-hand or third-hand information about someone's misfortune and the supposed reactions from the vendor and manufacturer. Could all be perfectly true, could all be not so true.


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## draganM (Nov 27, 2001)

Trigger, can you post some pics?


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

*Correct*



wim said:


> That's exactly how it is. Sometimes it's actually better to honor someone's obviously bogus claim rather than fight it.


But 95%+ of the time I would not have done this. Again as a business owner I have to have my best interest in mind to stick around for the future. Especially when the damage is VERY questionable as to fault.
I made a calculated decision based on numbers in my database as to how much money he spends a year in my shop. If he was a guy I saw once or twice a year bringing in an internet purchase or picking up a blow out bike I probably would have stood my ground and pushed my point of how the damage occured, no big loss.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

albert owen said:


> For UK Folks:
> In the UK, for the first 6 Months the burden of proof is on the LBS (Seller) to prove that it _wasn't_ a manufacturing/assembly fault.


That sounds crazy. How can the LBS prove that the owner didn't fiddle with adjustments AFTER taking the bike home?

How can the dealer prove that the owner didn't bang the derailleur against something, bend it, and cause catastrophic failure?


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

philbennett said:


> Why should Felt be liable for an LBS installation error?
> Regardless, I'm not buying it. Chances are 97 percent or so that something happened after the bike left the dealer, something not related to an installation issue or a manufacturers defect.
> Not knowing much about mechanical stuff really is no excuse for the owner or OP to instantly feel Felt owes her. I'd like to hear a diagnosis from someone who is qualified. This isn't rocket science.


when a LBS recieves the bike from the company's distributor, say from Felt...

when they pull it from the box, the rear wheel, rear derailleur & chain are already attached to the frame/hanger... so it's not an installation error.

The LBS, once they but the front end of the bike together, would do quick checks to make sure eveything is adjusted properly.

It's not like they are building a bike, from the frame up.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

rcharrette said:


> I made a calculated decision based on numbers in my database as to how much money he spends a year in my shop.


Yes, I assumed that.

This has nothing to do with this thread, but your reply made me think about a more-or-less light-hearted bicycle shop customer classification scheme I always wanted to come up with, but never did. The 8-hour conversationalist who never buys a thing, the technical expert who knows more about the stuff you sell than you do, and so on.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

philbennett said:


> Why should Felt be liable for an LBS installation error?
> Regardless, I'm not buying it. Chances are 97 percent or so that something happened after the bike left the dealer, something not related to an installation issue or a manufacturers defect.
> Not knowing much about mechanical stuff really is no excuse for the owner or OP to instantly feel Felt owes her. I'd like to hear a diagnosis from someone who is qualified. This isn't rocket science.


Because the LBS is a licensed dealer. Felt vouches for the competence of their licensed dealers by insisting that their warranty is not valid unless the bike is assembled by one. Otherwise, the dealer license doesn't mean much.

I've ridden more than a few miles in my life, most of them with derailleur hangers that have sustained some impacts. Back in the day, we would just bend it back straight and keep going. The kind of failure where a derailleur goes into the spokes because of a bent hanger requires a major bang, not some little ding in a staging area or the bike falling over or something like that, unless the frame or hanger are defective. It seems very unlikely that the limit screws would be that far out of adjustment on a bike set up by a dealer and having been ridden less than 100 miles--I never have to touch my limit screws unless I'm swapping rear wheels. 

Besides, the OP still hasn't mentioned that kind of event--just the frame being damaged by the chain. It would be nice to have pics and/or more info.

FWIW, a riding buddy of mine had a crack develop in the frame of his 5 year old Cervelo P3. The LBS where he bought it and where he had been a loyal customer for years brushed him off, and it sat around his house for months until he finally decided to take it to another Cervelo dealer. Two days later he had a new P4 frame enroute from Cervelo at no charge. 

Guess which shop he'll be spending his coin in from now on? I don't get what makes bike shops do this kind of stuff. Do they not understand that their customers are part of a tight knit community where word of mouth is crucial?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Fireform said:


> Because the LBS is a licensed dealer. Felt vouches for the competence of their licensed dealers by insisting that their warranty is not valid unless the bike is assembled by one. Otherwise, the dealer license doesn't mean much.
> 
> I've ridden more than a few miles in my life, most of them with derailleur hangers that have sustained some impacts. Back in the day, we would just bend it back straight and keep going. The kind of failure where a derailleur goes into the spokes because of a bent hanger requires a major bang, not some little ding in a staging area or the bike falling over or something like that, unless the frame or hanger are defective. It seems very unlikely that the limit screws would be that far out of adjustment on a bike set up by a dealer and having been ridden less than 100 miles--I never have to touch my limit screws unless I'm swapping rear wheels.
> 
> ...


Because it's not a warranty issue, it's an end user fvck up. They already offered her a 50% reduction to build a new frame up, but what she does with her junker is up to her.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fireform said:


> I've ridden more than a few miles in my life, most of them with derailleur hangers that have sustained some impacts. Back in the day, we would just bend it back straight and keep going.


That's still how it's done. The function and repair of the derailleur hanger hasn't changed since back in the day and moder times. Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Rear Derailleur Hanger Alignment



> The kind of failure where a derailleur goes into the spokes because of a bent hanger requires a major bang, not some little ding in a staging area or the bike falling over or something like that,


Cog spacing is ~3/16". It takes half that (.09") to move the chain off the cog. It doesn't take much movement at the hanger to move the derailleur pulley .09".


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

tlg said:


> Cog spacing is ~3/16". It takes half that (.09") to move the chain off the cog. It doesn't take much movement at the hanger to move the derailleur pulley .09".


This.

My bike fell over last weekend when we went into hiding from a thundershower. Upon inspecting it before climbing on to finish the ride, I discovered that just the tip over bent the hanger enough so that the cage contacted the spokes. The bottom of the cage ended up about 1/2" closer to the wheel than it should have been.

Bent back and finished (as well as rode 3 more times on it) but it's getting a new hanger just to be safe(er).


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> My bike fell over last weekend when we went into hiding from a thundershower. Upon inspecting it before climbing on to finish the ride, I discovered that just the tip over bent the hanger enough so that the cage contacted the spokes.


But... but... but... that's not possible. It takes a major bang, not something like a bike falling over or something like that. 

Honeslty though, I don't know WTF you were thinking. You should've just rode it as is, dropped the chain into the spokes, ripped the dereailleur and hanger off then went to your LBS and claimed warranty.


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

pmf said:


> +1 -- I was going to suggest getting the frame repaired. It's a lot cheaper than a new one, and the work I see from some of these carbon repair outfits is pretty incredible. The LBS will rebuild the repaired frame for 50% off -- your friend could only be out a few hundred bucks.


Yeah - crash replacement price on my Cervelo Frame was $1800. Repair was $160 and my LBS charged me $200 to break bike down, ship frame to Spyder, receive frame back, and rebuild/tune bike. So $360 vs $2000 was a no-brainer.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

tlg has the diagnosis correct; the derailleur hanger itself didn't break but the derailleur likely hung up somehow and pulled on the hanger, breaking it. Damage to the chainstay was a "consequential" damage which is usually not covered under warranty. How you're going to find a responsible party for the damage is beyond me as the cause is not clear.

If I understand correctly, it's a carbon chainstay. See if Calfee Design or other carbon repair facility can fix the frame, which will be a lot cheaper than a replacement. If the frame is unrepairable, then send Felt a nasty-gram and buy something else.

P.S. Your friend's experience is yet another reason why I advocate any other material over carbon.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Peter P. said:


> tlg has the diagnosis correct


I guess his crystal ball is working better than mine. Come on, all we have is the story from someone who knows a girl with a bike problem and claims to know what a bike shop and a bike company said about addressing that girl's problem.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Triggrr said:


> I know a girl that just bought her 1st bike. She got a nice Felt Z6. After waiting for the bike to arrive the first and second rides went great (about 25 miles combined). She then took the bike to her first duathlon in south Ga. 40 miles in the rear derailleur hanger broke and the chain cut into the frame. Felt said that it is not covered under warranty and that She will have to buy a new frame. The LBS (Roswell Bikes, where she purchased it) said they feel bad for her and will only charge 50% to change the components. I say Felt should step up and fix the girls bike. What do you think? I ride a Felt and I'm pretty pissed about this. May be changing brands soon.....


Felt didn't break the frame, but someone is at fault.

Recently we had a bike come in with a broken Shimano chain (side plate failure) that led to the same kind of frame damage. The customer contacted Shimano and they had us box the bike and send it to them - if it is their fault due to a bad chain, they are planning on replacing the frame and broken derailleur, because it is their fault.

A close examination of the derailleur, chain and frame may tell you more, but someone smart is going to have to be looking at it. I would consider taking the bike to the best reputation shop in the area to get an unbiased look.

One possibility that's outside the usual list is chainsuck. I've seen hangers broken when the chain sticks to the chainrings during a front shift and ends up getting pulled up between the chainrings and chainstay. That would be the crank makers fault, or go back to Felt if that's what happened.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

In most cases one would assume the derailleur got into the spokes, but the OP did not mention this in any of his posts, and it seems like a fairly obvious thing to include. He also doesn't mention a crash associated with this failure, which I would tend to expect if a derailleur got into the spokes on a new racer in mid race.

Some pics would be nice.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

Actually had a rear hanger shear on my new Jamis Xenith a couple of years ago. Bike had about 200 miles on it, and always store my bikes in my bike shed, by the front wheel. Well, about 25 miles into my ride at the top of Alpine Road, which I have climbed many times, I shift the chain into the the big ring, soft pedal a few strokes, than shift it into a proper descending gear and bang. The rear der snapped and rotated around and cracked my seat stay clean through. Have been riding and racing a long time and know a defect when I see one. I had to walk down Alpine road, luckily I was riding with my Sidi MTB shoes, as I had to walk past a downed tree before calling my girl close to the bottom so she could pick me up.

Took the bike into the store of purhcase, and Rob at La Dolce Velo ran it throught the Jamis rep and he had no problem getting me a brand new frame at no cost.
just sayin'....


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

wim said:


> I guess his crystal ball is working better than mine.


No crystal ball or magic need. Just an understanding that a hunk of forged or CNC machined aluminum doesn't go breaking all by itself just from the weight of a 200g derailleur. It just does not happen. Something else caused it to break.



Fireform said:


> In most cases one would assume the derailleur got into the spokes, but the OP did not mention this in any of his posts, and it seems like a fairly obvious thing to include.


What I get from the OP's explanation is that the chain dropped off the small cog, hence the frame damage. Not off the large cog into the spokes, which is why there's no mention of wheel damage.
But yea, it would be helpful with more info and pics from the OP.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Well, if the chain goes off the small cog because the hanger is bent, the hanger has to be bent out. I'm not saying that's impossible, but I've never seen one bent that way. The bike falling over or getting hit by something is going to bend the derailleur hanger in, not out. If the hanger wasn't bent and the chain went off the small cog, the limit screw has to be set wrong. At 80-odd miles on the bike, that's the LBS' problem.

Just MHO.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tednugent said:


> when a LBS recieves the bike from the company's distributor, say from Felt...
> 
> when they pull it from the box, the rear wheel, rear derailleur & chain are already attached to the frame/hanger... so it's not an installation error.
> 
> ...


these days if a shop pulls a bike from the box and doesn't take the derailleur off and check the aligment of the hanger, *they're not doing it right*.



Fireform said:


> Because the LBS is a licensed dealer. Felt vouches for the competence of their licensed dealers by insisting that their warranty is not valid unless the bike is assembled by one. Otherwise, the dealer license doesn't mean much.
> 
> I've ridden more than a few miles in my life, most of them with derailleur hangers that have sustained some impacts. Back in the day, we would just bend it back straight and keep going. The kind of failure where a derailleur goes into the spokes because of a bent hanger requires a major bang, not some little ding in a staging area or the bike falling over or something like that, unless the frame or hanger are defective. It seems very unlikely that the limit screws would be that far out of adjustment on a bike set up by a dealer and having been ridden less than 100 miles--I never have to touch my limit screws unless I'm swapping rear wheels.
> 
> ...


you may have ridden tons of miles, but that doesn't in any way make your opinion correct on this subject. hell, i've flown tons of miles, but i can't fly a plane yet. 

modern frames have generally flimsy derailleur hangers, and this is by design. as soft as they are, they don't break by themselves or from the weight of the derailleur. i don't see how you can think the shop and/or Felt is doing the OP's friend a disservice by not providing a new frame at no charge. the odds that this was the result of a material failure or improper workmanship on Felt's part are so small it's not even worth thinking about. as much as i value each and every customer that walks in our doors, there is no way i'm going to stay in business if i provide free replacement parts for non-warranty problems, nor will i lie to my suppliers about how i think something failed in an attempt to get a product warrantied.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fireform said:


> Well, if the chain goes off the small cog because the hanger is bent, the hanger has to be bent out. I'm not saying that's impossible, but I've never seen one bent that way. The bike falling over or getting hit by something is going to bend the derailleur hanger in, not out.


No one ever said the bike fell over. There are other ways for hangers to get bet.


> If the hanger wasn't bent and the chain went off the small cog, the limit screw has to be set wrong. At 80-odd miles on the bike, that's the LBS' problem.


If the limit screw was set wrong, how'd the bike work fine for 80 odd miles? I don't think the LBS came out and turned the screw at 75mi.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> these days if a shop pulls a bike from the box and doesn't take the derailleur off and check the aligment of the hanger, *they're not doing it right*.


Agree completely. But that brings up the possibility that the bike did have a seriously bent aluminum hanger right out of the box and in straightening it, someone weakenend or even cracked it. Pure speculation, mind you.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

tlg said:


> If the limit screw was set wrong, how'd the bike work fine for 80 odd miles? I don't think the LBS came out and turned the screw at 75mi.


Because it has indexing.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> these days if a shop pulls a bike from the box and doesn't take the derailleur off and check the aligment of the hanger, *they're not doing it right*.
> 
> modern frames have *generally flimsy derailleur hangers*, and this is by design. as soft as they are, they don't break by themselves or from the weight of the derailleur.


I agree with both points.
Almost every new bike I build has a bent derailleur hanger. I ignored the hanger on latest bike I built - a Jamis Citizen 1 - because it's steel and part of the frame. I messed with the derailleur (cheapie Tourney with the huge metal bracket/hanger) for 15 minutes before I decided to go ahead and check the frame/hanger. It was bent.

The new, flimsy hangers used on bikes these days can be bent by sneezing on them. If I were to buy a production bike (versus a custom/small builder bike), I'd immediately replace the derailleur hanger with one from Wheels Manufacturing. They're much sturdier.

Oh, and as for the OP... I can pretty much guarantee that it is in no way Felt's fault. You're just being alarmist.


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## Defy (Apr 22, 2012)

She must be a very pretty girl. Yes, can we have some pics...of her.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Defy said:


> She must be a very pretty girl. Yes, can we have some pics...of her.


Yes, OP, please! If you "know a girl," you should be able to get pictures of her.


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## lafrancis (Dec 10, 2011)

She should get a metal frame to avoid just about all of the possible reasons given. Otherwise you spend a lot of money and take your chances.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

lafrancis said:


> She should get a metal frame to avoid just about all of the possible reasons given. Otherwise you spend a lot of money and take your chances.


Yeah, not really.

Nice of you to spread misinformation all over the place.


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## lafrancis (Dec 10, 2011)

Wow, I feel bad now!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

lafrancis said:


> Wow, I feel bad now!


2nd post, reputation sealed. well done.


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

Triggrr said:


> Good stuff.... I may be out of line but I tend to see things at face value. If I do a job I am expected to stand behind it.. Just thought everyone else my hold the same value. I'm not sure where the break is, I will get a picture and let you know. I will also get more info about the short history of the bike. Thanks for the thoughts...........


Don't know what you do for a living, but say you're a builder. Some guy asks you to build a garage. You pull out all the stops... enamel floors, fancy door opener, bright lighting, etc.

The guy backs his car through the door because he thought the door would automatically open.

Do you warranty the door?

Now put yourself in the shoes of a bike mfg/shop. The mfg builds a bike that is the result of tons of research, engineering, design, testing, etc. The shop puts it together and adjusts it.

The customer puts it in the car with the derailleur side down because they didn't think it mattered and the hanger gets bent enough to throw the adjustment out of whack, causing damage.

Is the shop responsible? Is the manufacturer responsible?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

nhluhr said:


> The customer puts it in the car with the derailleur side down because they didn't think it mattered and the hanger gets bent enough to throw the adjustment out of whack, causing damage.


Too lazy to wade through this whole thread, but is this what happened?


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

wim said:


> Too lazy to wade through this whole thread, but is this what happened?


I've got no idea - but then, neither does the shop, the customer, or especially the OP.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

nhluhr said:


> I've got no idea - but then, neither does the shop, the customer, or especially the OP.


Thanks, thought I missed something here.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Did you at least offer her a "ride" after this unfortunate incident?

Derailleurs go into wheels, it's a pretty common occurrence. It's just another reason to have multiple bikes!


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## WhatGoodIsAName (May 18, 2012)

I can understand the frustration of having a bike failure very early in bike's life, and feel its a point where the manufactures are missing a market

The owner has a "just riding along" incident where they cannot remember anything that would lead to the failure. Going through the shop -> manufacturer to try to get a warranty replacement,will probably end with a warranty denial unless you have a name in the community or the shop is 200% behind you (see the Fuji & Performance seat stay issue). Most owner in this situation feel they have a warranty issue, where as the manufacture can;t 100% identify a defect and therefore won't warranty the bike. 

This discrepancy between the owner and manufacturer is in my opinion where the manufactures are failing. If the owner tries to claim a warranty they can be stuck in +month process which ends in a crash replacement that adds over 50% to cost their bike. On the the hand, if the owner realizes before hand that questionable damage is a fsck (on a 1TB hard drive) then they would go strait to a repair company that would cost less than a crash replacement and take similar time. 

In these cases,why don't the bike manufacturers offer repair services, or work with repair companies (possibly eating the shipping costs) to provide a lower cost option than frame replacement with the condition of minimal/no future warranty. This is pretty common for most electronics manufactures.


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## dgeesaman (Jun 9, 2010)

It sucks for a new rider to experience this straight away. But I agree with those who suspect a mishap that broke / bent the derailleur hanger. Someone I ride with recently tore one because a plastic shopping bag (the really flimsy grocery type) blew across as she was pedaling and jammed in her derailleur. The leverage on it tore the whole derailleur off in a snap and the chain movement scarred the chainstay.

If you're a bike manufacturer there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening. So it's not a manufacturing defect and that falls on the shop or the user. Bike builders would be out of business if they replaced frames every time something mechanical happened that scratched up their frames. This is especially true when you consider how we the consumer price shop them to oblivion and demand the lightest possible of all designs in the least durable of materials.

The one place where this could have been avoided was at the LBS. Not saying they forgot to do something, but to set customer expectations they could take a minute to cover how to handle the new bike, things to watch for, etc. That way their customers don't leave their bikes out in the rain, pile them up in the car, let them bang around on their car rack, etc and end up disappointed later.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

dgeesaman said:


> It sucks for a new rider to experience this straight away. But I agree with those who suspect a mishap that broke / bent the derailleur hanger. Someone I ride with recently tore one because a plastic shopping bag (the really flimsy grocery type) blew across as she was pedaling and jammed in her derailleur. The leverage on it tore the whole derailleur off in a snap and the chain movement scarred the chainstay.
> 
> If you're a bike manufacturer there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening. So it's not a manufacturing defect and that falls on the shop or the user. Bike builders would be out of business if they replaced frames every time something mechanical happened that scratched up their frames. This is especially true when you consider how we the consumer price shop them to oblivion and demand the lightest possible of all designs in the least durable of materials.


That last line may say it all. It is a pretty poor design if a simple chain incident can destroy the frame.

What happened to chainstay protectors that are not a useless piece of clear plastic that sits on top of the stay? That sort of thing was fine to protect the paint of a metal frame but those frames are not destroyed when a chain gets dropped in various ways.


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

The finding of fault is very near impossible.

In that case, why has felt decided not to offer the girl a deeply discounted frame?

It would not cost them much, and in the overall pic of things would bred brand loyality.
Yet instead, they say to bad for you, and the customer goes away both upset and has their feelings hurt, and will no doubt tell every person she knows and a lot that she doesn't, how she got ripped off by Felt. If she did or did not, will not matter to her, or the story she tells.
It can't cost Felt that much to make someone a customer for life.

I think the idea of big bike co working with a repair shop is also a good idea. But I would bet that a new frame is, @cost, cheaper than a repair.

this girl traveled to a tri race, I know she has to know more than a few other riders. I would want her telling them about how Felt took care of her.


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## texascyclist (May 10, 2005)

Can we see a pic of the gash? It may just be cosmetic.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

It's really impossible to know what to think about this without photos. If Felt told her she had to buy a new frame you get the feeling it was serious damage, but that may not have been the case. 

Cxwrench may be exactly right about the situation. He's seen more frame failures than most of us have dreamed of. Or, we may all be misinformed about what happened to some extent, because the OP is a little vague about the specifics. But the ironclad law of retail is that the customer is always right. Companies that forget sooner or later cease to be companies. 

Would you rather have a story like this bouncing around the internet, or one like I related where my buddy had his cracked 5-year-old P3 replaced gratis with a new P4? If they didn't do so at the time, and for all I know they may have, the Felt rep on site should have explained to her what happened and why they aren't responsible for making it right. She would have still been bummed, but not upset with Felt anymore.

To an experienced cyclist or a mechanic, a bicycle is an ensamble of parts with many origins. However, a noob doesn't think "I'm buying this frame and that hanger and that derailleur and that fork and that brake and that saddle and..." The bike is one thing to them, and it says FELT on it in big letters. If something goes wrong with it, they expect FELT to make it right.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

jr59 said:


> The finding of fault is very near impossible.
> 
> In that case, *why has felt decided not to offer the girl a deeply discounted frame?
> *
> ...


i'm betting that Felt will definitely sell her a 'crash replacement' frame at a large discount. virtually every bike company has a policy like this in place for incidents just like this one. the policies vary from company to company but usually they'll get a customer back on their bike for a greatly discounted amount. while all companies would love to get the customer back on their bike, it in NO WAY guarantees they'll have a customer for life. 
all of the posters that are bashing Felt need to back off...if you have zero experience w/ the bike industry in general and frame failures/accidents in particular you have no place even posting in this thread. people will spout off about how they think things should be, but until they own a bicycle company they have no idea what's really going on. 
if indeed the owner of the bike is at fault for the damage, that sucks. but if every bike company out there replaced frames every time an 'at-fault' customer damaged one, they'd all be out of business in a matter of weeks.


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> i'm betting that Felt will definitely sell her a 'crash replacement' frame at a large discount. virtually every bike company has a policy like this in place for incidents just like this one. the policies vary from company to company but usually they'll get a customer back on their bike for a greatly discounted amount. while all companies would love to get the customer back on their bike, it in NO WAY guarantees they'll have a customer for life.
> all of the posters that are bashing Felt need to back off...if you have zero experience w/ the bike industry in general and frame failures/accidents in particular you have no place even posting in this thread. people will spout off about how they think things should be, but until they own a bicycle company they have no idea what's really going on.
> if indeed the owner of the bike is at fault for the damage, that sucks. but if every bike company out there replaced frames every time an 'at-fault' customer damaged one, they'd all be out of business in a matter of weeks.


There are NO GUARANTEES in this world at all. Except that you will die.

That being said, IF, Felt says to bad. I can GUARANTEE you that everyone she knows will know the story as it was told here. No matter who's fault it is. The girl will feel cheated and bad mouth Felt for as long as she lives.

I can also guarantee that they have no chance in the world of retaining a customer if they say "so what, we didn't do it"!

What does that gain? Besides ill will!

Back to what I said before, what does a frame cost Felt? Not much I'm sure. So you have to equal that out against how much damage can be done by word of mouth and the internet!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

jr59 said:


> The finding of fault is very near impossible.
> 
> In that case, why has felt decided not to offer the girl a deeply discounted frame?
> 
> ...



Losing a whiny customer such as her probably won't cost them much. However, handing out warranty frames that could ostensibly be sold for profit certainly will cost them something.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

jr59 said:


> There are NO GUARANTEES in this world at all. Except that you will die.
> 
> That being said, IF, Felt says to bad. I can GUARANTEE you that everyone she knows will know the story as it was told here. No matter who's fault it is. The girl will feel cheated and bad mouth Felt for as long as she lives.
> 
> ...


are you at all familiar w/ the term 'the bottom line'?


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> are you at all familiar w/ the term 'the bottom line'?


Seeing as I own my own small/med size business, yea I am.

I don't work for someone else. If I don't make it, I don't draw a paycheck! 

I also understand if I can't make my customers at least somewhat happy, I won't have any!

That seems to be something you should think of as well.

But god forbid, you work for a bike racer!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

jr59 said:


> Seeing as I own my own small/med size business, yea I am.
> 
> I don't work for someone else. If I don't make it, I don't draw a paycheck!
> 
> ...


How many customers do you think Felt has? How many times should they just "do the right thing?" What makes her special?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

jr59 said:


> Seeing as I own my own small/med size business, yea I am.
> 
> I don't work for someone else. If I don't make it, I don't draw a paycheck!
> 
> ...


i don't quite understand that statement, maybe you could explain your point. 

i work at a shop as well. we have exceptional customer service. but...it's not our call to give frames away and we won't 'push' any of our vendors to warranty a product that isn't a warranty issue. we explain (very nicely and repeatedly if needed) to the customer what 'warranty' means, and how their problem doesn't fall under it. they understand this pretty much 100% of the time, and neither our store nor any of vendors have lost customers because of issues like this. i know this for a fact. i'm quite surprised as a business owner that you think this friend of the OP should be given a replacement frame...hopefully you manage to stay in business for a long time:thumbsup:


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> How many customers do you think Felt has? How many times should they just "do the right thing?" What makes her special?



no idea how many customers Felt has. Nor do I really care. I do know that they are fighting for market share against some VERY large bike companies. I also know they NEED every customer, as not to lose them to Trek or the big S.

IMO; You should ALWAYS try to do the right thing. I'm not saying the right thing is to give her a new better bike, or even a new frame.

What I have said is for Felt to offer her a frame at their cost would go a long way to trying to keep a customer happy. With no loss on their part.

I have no idea whats going to happen, but I will say this, I didn't care for Felt before, and now I KNOW I will never buy one, and I doubt anyone I know or ride with will either. All because of threads like this.

So you tell me, Excatly how many customers does Felt have?


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> i don't quite understand that statement, maybe you could explain your point.
> 
> i work at a shop as well. we have exceptional customer service. but...it's not our call to give frames away and we won't 'push' any of our vendors to warranty a product that isn't a warranty issue. we explain (very nicely and repeatedly if needed) to the customer what 'warranty' means, and how their problem doesn't fall under it. they understand this pretty much 100% of the time, and neither our store nor any of vendors have lost customers because of issues like this. i know this for a fact. i'm quite surprised as a business owner that you think this friend of the OP should be given a replacement frame...hopefully you manage to stay in business for a long time:thumbsup:



WAIT!!! Where did I say that they should be GIVEN anything for free?

Doesn't your sig say you work for bike racers?

I also hope you never have to run your own business. But that's ok too! Keep drawing a paycheck and don't worry about customer service!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

jr59 said:


> no idea how many customers Felt has. Nor do I really care. I do know that they are fighting for market share against some VERY large bike companies. I also know they NEED every customer, as not to lose them to Trek or the big S.
> 
> IMO; You should ALWAYS try to do the right thing. I'm not saying the right thing is to give her a new better bike, or even a new frame.
> 
> ...


I've no clue how many they have. But obviously you have some inkling since you're saying they are lose nothing by giving her a frame at cost for something that they had no part in causing.

I frankly don't care if you don't like Felt after reading this. I'm sure they don't really give a crap either. The bottom line is you're wrong in that they should ignore their own policies and just give away product because "it's the right thing to do."


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

jr59 said:


> WAIT!!! *Where did I say that they should be GIVEN* anything for free?
> 
> Doesn't your sig say you work for bike racers?
> 
> I also hope you never have to run your own business. But that's ok too! Keep drawing a paycheck and don't worry about customer service!


basically right here...
"That being said, IF, Felt says to bad. I can GUARANTEE you that everyone she knows will know the story as it was told here. No matter who's fault it is. The girl will feel cheated and bad mouth Felt for as long as she lives.

I can also guarantee that they have no chance in the world of retaining a customer if they say "so what, we didn't do it"!

What does that gain? Besides ill will!

*Back to what I said before, what does a frame cost Felt? Not much I'm sure. So you have to equal that out against how much damage can be done by word of mouth and the internet!"*

yes my signature says i work for bike racers...what did your comment about that mean? that they get everything for free and so it doesn't matter if they break stuff? 
and i most definitely do not just show up and 'draw a paycheck'...why in the hell would i waste my time in the bike industry if all i cared about was money? i'll most certainly never get rich doing what i do. i really hope you do a better job running your business than you do posting on this forum.


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

jr59 said:


> The finding of fault is very near impossible.
> 
> In that case, why has felt decided not to offer the girl a deeply discounted frame?
> 
> ...


complete



cxwrench said:


> basically right here...
> "That being said, IF, Felt says to bad. I can GUARANTEE you that everyone she knows will know the story as it was told here. No matter who's fault it is. The girl will feel cheated and bad mouth Felt for as long as she lives.
> 
> I can also guarantee that they have no chance in the world of retaining a customer if they say "so what, we didn't do it"!
> ...


I really do love the way you just use part of the quote. Or maybe you didn't read where I addressed the finding of fault.

Well done!


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> I've no clue how many they have. But obviously you have some inkling since you're saying they are lose nothing by giving her a frame at cost for something that they had no part in causing.
> 
> I frankly don't care if you don't like Felt after reading this. I'm sure they don't really give a crap either. The bottom line is you're wrong in that they should ignore their own policies and just give away product because "it's the right thing to do."



I am sure Felt cares how the public cares. They surely spend enough on advertising to try and sell bikes, so that tells me they care.

The question is, and will never really be answered, how did this happen?

Since their can be no for sure answer; Then Felt costing a frame to the party, after owning the bike for a short time would seem the thing to do. For tworeasons.
1. It would help keep the customer as a Felt rider
2. It would protect the shop where this problem MIGHT have started, or at least been averted.

Again, no where have I said that they should give away anything, but you don't seem to get that either.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

jr59 said:


> I am sure Felt cares how the public cares. They surely spend enough on advertising to try and sell bikes, so that tells me they care.
> 
> The question is, and will never really be answered, how did this happen?
> 
> ...


There's another tenant of business in which customers who are a royal pain in the ass and cost more time/money/effort to deal with are better off not customers.

Some whiny woman who trashed her frame and expects a freebie replacement (and has her friend go online to badmouth Felt, to boot) falls under the "not worth having as a customer."

Same with the shop: why cater to a customer who wants them to push for a warranty when it clearly is not?

Stop the entitled attitude and own up to the fact that you race what you can afford to replace. It's unbecoming of you as a business owner and a consumer.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

wim said:


> While I could agree with that, keep in mind that we really don't know for sure if there actually is a whiny woman and if there is, if she in fact trashed her frame. Apparently, the OP has lost the desire to be part of this discussion.


Point taken, I'm just going on what we have to work with.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

I am completely unsurprised the OP has fled this wreck of a thread.

I would have enjoyed finding out what caused the failure.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Some whiny woman who trashed her frame and expects a freebie replacement (and has her friend go online to badmouth Felt, to boot) falls under the "not worth having as a customer."


While I could agree with that, keep in mind that we really don't know for sure if there actually is a whiny woman and if there is, if she, in fact, trashed her frame. As Kontact surmised, the OP seems to have lost the desire to be part of this discussion.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Triggrr said:


> I know a girl that just bought her 1st bike. She got a nice Felt Z6. After waiting for the bike to arrive the first and second rides went great (about 25 miles combined). She then took the bike to her first duathlon in south Ga. 40 miles in the rear derailleur hanger broke and the chain cut into the frame. Felt said that it is not covered under warranty and that She will have to buy a new frame. The LBS (Roswell Bikes, where she purchased it) said they feel bad for her and will only charge 50% to change the components. I say Felt should step up and fix the girls bike. What do you think? I ride a Felt and I'm pretty pissed about this. May be changing brands soon.....


You buy a car, take it for a long trip, smack it up, you think youre going to go to the dealer and get a new one?


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

jr59 said:


> The question is, and will never really be answered, how did this happen?


Exactly! And so why should Felt take the loss. I bet they could get hundreds of these claims per year. Are they supposed to hook someone up everytime they have a mechanical and ruin their frame? They'd be out of biz in no time.


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## alien4fish (Mar 3, 2012)

jr59 said:


> no idea how many customers Felt has. Nor do I really care. I do know that they are fighting for market share against some VERY large bike companies. I also know they NEED every customer, as not to lose them to Trek or the big S.
> 
> IMO; You should ALWAYS try to do the right thing. I'm not saying the right thing is to give her a new better bike, or even a new frame.
> 
> ...


and after reading thru this thread I also have 2nd thoughts on this Frame and manufacturer, What happens if spend 1700-2200 on a carbon bike and have the same failure?Is Felt going to say "sorry" to bad for you?
Am I willing to take that gamble on Brand name bike?
Nope
Will specailized? yeup! they have a better policy from what ive read.
And then there is the internet..........a reputation of not supporting your custumer base will travel quickly around the WORLD not just in a local area of the country like before.An angry custumer(like this person)can spout off on a tiraid and its there for all the world to see.And then you have this morphing into this........"Well I read on the internet that this one guy had sister who knew a guy who had a girlfreind and the Carbon Frame Assploded in the sun" So I would never buy a Felt bike. 
Whether or not its true the damage has been done.
And the fact of the matter is the customer IS ALWAYS right no matter what.
Theres just to much compitition out there. 
Thats just my 2cts. as a consumer......................


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

jr59 said:


> The question is, and will never really be answered, how did this happen?


Nah. If I have learned anything from this thread, which is doubtful, then I have learned that "everyone" knows that it is impossible, just impossible, for it to be Felt's fault or the the LBS' fault. Felt's low wage assemblers could not have failed to set up the derailleur correctly. That could never ever ever ever happen. Ever. The guy at the LBS who pulled the bike out of a box could not have forgotten to check that the drivetrain was set up right. That is impossible. Could not happen in a million years. Never ever ever. 

It has to be the girl's fault. She is a girl afterall. You know you cannot trust them. She must have crashed and not even known about it or maybe, being a girl and all, that sort of thing happens so often to her that she forgot. 

One thing is absolutely clear. It has to be her fault. No one in the history of the world has ever bought a bike that was set up incorrectly. If that did happen--which it won't--it would be so newsworthy that Obama would have to drop everything he was doing and immediately hold a press conference. It would be unprecedented, like aliens landing a spaceship outside the UN building.

LBS are the sine qua non of our high tech economy. A flaw in quality is unthinkable. Forget about six sigma. At minimum the typical LBS adheres to nine sigma. Pulling a bike out of a cardboard box and attaching the handlebars is a job that takes years of schooling. After that a test so rigorous it makes the California bar look like a preschool game is required to work at an LBS or in a bike assembly plant. A decade long apprenticeship is required after passing the test. Only then will the worker be allowed to touch a bike without being directly overseen by an older worker in good standing. It makes no sense that a person who has gone through an education and training that rigorous could ever make a mistake. 

As Sherlock Holmes one said, "Eliminate the impossible and whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Since it is impossible for the LBS or Felt assemblers to have failed to uphold the almost impossibly high standards of their profession, it must be the customer's fault. I learned it on RBR.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Great post trailrunner, but one thing. If we can't pinpoint who's fault it was between the three parties, why should Felt have to be the one to take the loss? If they wanted to step up and take care of her that would be great. But me, I can't fault them if they don't.


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

T K said:


> Great post trailrunner, but one thing. If we can't pinpoint who's fault it was between the three parties, why should Felt have to be the one to take the loss? If they wanted to step up and take care of her that would be great. But me, I can't fault them if they don't.


If you read the first post I made; I clearly don't think anyone should take a loss!

Not the LBS, Not Felt, nor the end user.

If I was Felt, I would cost her the frame, just because because of the unknown, we don't/can't be sure of what excatly happened.

Where is the loss? Do you really think this girl is going to buy a new Felt bike?

How does doing the right thing hurt anyone?

Also, if they did this, how would Felt be out of business? They lose no money, and gain respect in the end users eyes.

There is no right and wrong here. These ideas are just mine and mine alone.
I'm not in the bike buss. Never have been, don't want to be. BUT, I am in the customer service industry. I work in retail, as well as wholesale. If I can't make my customers feel like they have been treated fairly, they won't be my customers for long.

BTW; I've been doing this same thing for a LONG time. Yet, it is not hard for me to remember when EVERY customer was VERY important to my keeping the doors open.I try to keep those thoughts in mind every day.

Yet, I'm sure some here would just say opps, sorry nothing I can do.

Funny how I have seen those types of shops open and close over the years. While the shops that care, and try to at least come to a fair settlement seem to always stay busy, and that means busy year round.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

This sounds odd. I don't know all the stipulations for warranty replacement but I do know that Felt stands behind their product. One of my Felts cracked back a couple of years ago. I took it to my LBS and the owner called Felt while I was there. He left a message for them to call back. they never did. Next morning, my new frame arrived at my LBS. They didn't even ask for my receipt info- which was odd, since I had bought my Felt at another LBS. 

Thing is, your friend's situation might have dictated something else. Are you sure that she has told you everything? One of my buddies will not buy a Trek again because when his frame cracked, they refused to cover it. He was doing a track stand at a traffic light on his Madone 5.9. when the light turned green, he mashed on the pedals and CRUNCH!!. The rear chainstays on both sides completely broke off. He tried getting Trek to cover the frame but they said that it wasn't covered under warranty. He's a trustworthy person, but something tells me that I'm just hearing one side of the story and there could be more to it. Bike manufacturers don't just choose not cover their products unless something (such as mishandling of the product) had been done that caused the failure to occur. Not always the case but usually is.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

trailrunner68 said:


> Nah. If I have learned anything from this thread, which is doubtful, then I have learned that "everyone" knows that it is impossible, just impossible, for it to be Felt's fault or the the LBS' fault. Felt's low wage assemblers could not have failed to set up the derailleur correctly. That could never ever ever ever happen. Ever. The guy at the LBS who pulled the bike out of a box could not have forgotten to check that the drivetrain was set up right. That is impossible. Could not happen in a million years. Never ever ever.
> 
> It has to be the girl's fault. She is a girl afterall. You know you cannot trust them. She must have crashed and not even known about it or maybe, being a girl and all, that sort of thing happens so often to her that she forgot.
> 
> ...


wow. why don't you come to my shop and i'll show you what's involved, because i'm taking your post as a personal attack on the level of intelligence involved in properly assembling a bicycle. 
i, and at least a couple of other posters stated that it mostly likely wasn't Felt's fault, but that it could be the shop at fault. not likely, but possible. Felt's 'low wage bike assemblers don't have anything to do w/ it, the shop should have checked and double checked every possible adjustment on the bike. given the circumstances in this particular case, and years of experience in the industry does lead me to come up w/ possible causes for this problem, but obviously no one can make a 100% accurate decision w/o seeing the bike. since neither the OP nor the owner have ever posted photos or any recent responses, we really should just drop the whole damn thing and forget about it. save the latin legal terminology for your lawyer buddies, i doubt anyone here is impressed by it.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

jr59 said:


> If you read the first post I made; I clearly don't think anyone should take a loss!
> 
> Not the LBS, Not Felt, nor the end user.
> 
> ...


i, for one, posted that this is very likely a policy that Felt has in place, as does virtually every major manufacturer, to handle these kinds of problems. it's called 'crash replacement', and most companies will sell customers that have non-warranty damage issues a new 'whatever' for wholesale or less. only problem is the OP has vanished and we have no way of knowing whether this has been explored or not.


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## lung (Sep 1, 2008)

I've had nothing but spectacular service from Felt.


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

jr59 said:


> If you read the first post I made; I clearly don't think anyone should take a loss!
> 
> Not the LBS, Not Felt, nor the end user.
> 
> ...


Did Felt examine the bike and come to the conclusion that it was most likely user error that caused the frame failure? If so, then the right thing to do would be to explain why they are denying warranty replacement, e.g. the damage is not covered by their limited warranty.

If they just replaced every frame when it "broke" JRA, then heck, sign me up to buy a Felt so I can get a new one every year when it "fails" due to manufacturing defect... Actually, I would never do that, but there are a LOT of people who would abuse the system that way!

As far as judging by the evidence, there are plenty of people convicted of murder and sentenced to death from examination of the evidence only. It is rare that some murder is caught on camera or by multiple eyewitnesses, so you really can't be absolutely sure of the truth, can you? Quite more at stake in that situation than a bike frame, yet they rely simply on examination of evidence to come to a certain conclusion...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> Nah. If I have learned anything from this thread, which is doubtful, then I have learned that "everyone" knows that it is impossible, just impossible, for it to be Felt's fault or the the LBS' fault. Felt's low wage assemblers could not have failed to set up the derailleur correctly. That could never ever ever ever happen. Ever. The guy at the LBS who pulled the bike out of a box could not have forgotten to check that the drivetrain was set up right. That is impossible. Could not happen in a million years. Never ever ever.
> 
> It has to be the girl's fault. She is a girl afterall. You know you cannot trust them. She must have crashed and not even known about it or maybe, being a girl and all, that sort of thing happens so often to her that she forgot.
> 
> ...


I felt my IQ drop a few points while I read that.

I'm not even going to correct this person; it wouldn't do any good. Yeah, we just bolt on handlebars at the bike shop and send the bike out to the floor. Yep.


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