# Group set install cost



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

Back ground first)

I have been negotiating with my LBS on a new bike, and to get the build I want at a cheaper cost they were ordering the bike with an Ultegra kit and then switching it out for Athena. After some research I called them back to ask what the diff would be to do a Chorus build since when I look at it online its only about a $300.00 difference between group sets. For that matter it really is only 400 more than the 6700 set that comes on the bike. They quoted me $1,000 diff to build with Chorus over the 6700 which was 600 more than it was to build with Athena. 

What I cant understand is how can they up charge that much when the install cost is the same (frankly they have to install the Ultegra to begin with, most bikes do not show up with the group already installed unless the industry changed) I offered to pay them $600.00 more for the upgrades which would still be more than if I bought the kit separate and sold the 6700 and they scoffed about how they need to make a living (and by all means I want them to make some $$ but I was paying the MSRP on the Ultegra kit) and what I felt was a reasonable up charge for the Chorus.

So my question revolves around what I could expect to pay to have someone remove the 6700 and install the Chorus (assuming I buy it that way from them) or how difficult it may be to do this myself? (I am handy and have worked on my older Shimano stuff but never Campy) 

Thoughts?

Thanks!


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Back ground first)
> 
> I have been negotiating with my LBS on a new bike, and to get the build I want at a cheaper cost they were ordering the bike with an Ultegra kit and then switching it out for Athena. After some research I called them back to ask what the diff would be to do a Chorus build since when I look at it online its only about a $300.00 difference between group sets. For that matter it really is only 400 more than the 6700 set that comes on the bike. They quoted me $1,000 diff to build with Chorus over the 6700 which was 600 more than it was to build with Athena.
> 
> ...


It doesn't work that way. The bike comes with Ultegra so they get good pricing on that. The Ultegra is then much cheaper because it comes as part of the package. The Chorus group does not enjoy that advantage in this case. Hence the price difference.

If you were starting from a frame only, then the costs of the groups would be more in line with that you see on the web, a $400-$500 difference.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

You state the group isnt installed. It probably is. I have assembled hundreds of bikes and have never seen one that isnt mostly assembled. His meand the chain is on, bars taped ect..... They are usually mostly complete. As stated above Shimano deeply discounts to the Oem's and the price seen on the web is nowhere near what you will pay wnen bought with he rest of the bike.


Oh, and dont be a douschebag and play your shop aginst the internet. They cant compete there.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

I understand they need to make money and I want them to make money but I would also like to save a bit as well if possible. I just wanted them to have the chance to earn some additional cash on the Chorus transaction but not necessarily full retail on each piece of the transaction as that seems a bit unfair on my end. I will most likely buy the bike with the Shimano as opposed to the original offer (they were the ones who wanted to add the Athena as they had some stock of it) and at some point I will upgrade the bike myself to the Chorus for way less then doing it upfront. Then I can use the 6700 on a new cross frame and have twice the fun!


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I understand they need to make money and I want them to make money but I would also like to save a bit as well if possible. I just wanted them to have the chance to earn some additional cash on the Chorus transaction but not necessarily full retail on each piece of the transaction as that seems a bit unfair on my end. I will most likely buy the bike with the Shimano as opposed to the original offer (they were the ones who wanted to add the Athena as they had some stock of it) and at some point I will upgrade the bike myself to the Chorus for way less then doing it upfront. Then I can use the 6700 on a new cross frame and have twice the fun!


Good plan. That 6700 stuff works wonderfully.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

do it yourself.........It's not hard


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

you really have no idea how good of a deal OEM's get on parts. it's actually ridiculous when you look into a bit. the difference between my Trek 6.9SSL frameset at msrp($3899.99) vs a complete Ultegra bike($4882.48) is $982.49. go out and try to buy an Ultegra group, wheels, tires, bars/stem, saddle and tape for that. especially when they're $600 wheels. i dare you to find all the rest of the parts for $382.49.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

cxwrench,

I do understand the deal the OEM got on the Ultegra on that bike. The frame (msrp) is 2499.00 with the 6700 kit the total cost is 3499.00 (Shimano MSRP on ful Ultegra kit is 1299) Which already has us over the cost of the complete kit before the Fulcrum 5 wheel, tires, bars/stems, saddle and tape. This is why the LBS is buying it kitted that way and then fitting it with the Chorus that I want. They totally plan to use the kit on another bike and get full retail for it (I have no issue there either) What bothers me is why they cant just charge me for the upgraded kit (chorus) as opposed to an entire build (I was the one who pointed out that the Campy kit was way out of whack from Bianchi and it didn't make sense since you could component it out for 800 cheaper) They agreed and worked up a cost for me on the Athena and then I did some research and said hey I think I want the Chorus and it looks to me as if it would only be another $400 based on our earlier theory, but they wanted no less than 800.00 I just can't see paying them full retail on the chorus when they get to keep the 6700 group set. Anyway it is a mute point since I am just going to take the bike as it comes and do the upgrades on my own which seems crazy since the LBS is going to miss out on a bunch of profit form the chorus set (I fins it hard to believe they are paying more than 3 different US sites are selling it for and I can go to UK sites and get it even cheaper) I didn't want to cut them out, I just wanted a middle of the road deal but they wouldn't budge so we both lose out in the short term...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ahhhh, ok, that makes more sense now. i must have missed something in your earlier post. but...you can buy the chorus parts for less online than your bike shop can from a US distributor. and, if they're taking the bike apart and putting it back together they need to factor some labor cost into the equation. i know for a fact that when i order campy parts from QBP it's costing more than if i ordered them from PBK...so yes, YOU can buy parts for less than i can at the shop. it's crazy, but true.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> ahhhh, ok, that makes more sense now. i must have missed something in your earlier post. but...you can buy the chorus parts for less online than your bike shop can from a US distributor. and, if they're taking the bike apart and putting it back together they need to factor some labor cost into the equation. i know for a fact that when i order campy parts from QBP it's costing more than if i ordered them from PBK...so yes, YOU can buy parts for less than i can at the shop. it's crazy, but true.


That is nuts... I am in the Mfg/sales and I do know this happens but never understand that type of distributor model. It is crazy that I can by the parts from a shop in Colorado for 1,245 but my LBS can't (or won't) sell it to me as an upgrade to a 3500.00 bike I am buying from them (they are making full mark on the bike) It saves me 600.00 to purchase and upgrade after the fact and I can have it installed for 200-250 by another LBS so minimum I save 350.00 Consequently this was all I was asking as a savings from them and it would have earned them my business which over the long run is worth way more than 350 stinking dollars (I just spent twice that at REI on gear that the LBS could have had) So in the end the real story is that of customer service and making sure you make good long term decisions not bad short term ones. I will pick up my 3500.00 bike tomorrow and most likely never return to that shop. 

As a small business owner myself, I would be mortified to walk away from an opportunity to have a new customer. (I say this because the interaction from the LBS was a bit rude today when I gently asked them about the price they quoted) 

Coming from a city with a lot of choices for Bikes and Service, I am surprised with this interaction. 

The one piece I also do not get is the factoring of labor into the cost. Isn't that already factored in to the full bike? I mean that mechanic is at the shop all day everyday and they pay him regardless. Plus every bike they sell is already factoring in that over head and some profit from upgraded parts is better than none? 

Thanks for your insight, this process has consumed me all day and I am exhausted from it... It was worse than buying a new car...


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

Wrench-to you point-quote from THE LBS

"We are waiving the labor costs involved to strip off the OEM parts and completely rebuild the bike to your specifications. Most bike shops would probably not offer to do this as it erodes our profit margin."

I understand but if I do not buy anything you will not need to worry about margin... I wish businesses could sometime understand you cannot take a margin percentage to the bank. You only take profit dollars, and if you get no dollars you have no profit...


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

When someone approaches a good bicycle mechanic and inquires about a "groupset install cost", it is only expected that they will use that as an opportunity to double the price. You see, the bastardized term "groupset" actually means "group group" (or "set set", if you prefer). Hence the 2x increase in price. 

P.S. Have you tried asking about "group install cost"? Just asking...
P.P.S. I wonder what they'll say when asked about "groupset kit package" install cost...


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear your experience was so harrowing. Hopefully that won't be the case in the future. Around my area the most expensive shop also has the worst customer service. Yet people still line up for them. I don't quite get it either. That said, this:



[email protected] said:


> I mean that mechanic is at the shop all day everyday and they pay him regardless.


is not necessarily true. A lot of shops have wrenches that are on staff, paid by the hour, and a lot have wrenches that are paid on commission for the work they do. Frequently that commission _won't_ include sales commissions. Rather, the wrench does one bottom bracket swap, he gets paid a portion of the labor cost for that bottom bracket swap. In that scenario, when there isn't work to do, you don't get paid. But the point is the cost of switching groups _wouldn't_ be included in the cost of the bike. That would be a separate expense, and switching and adjusting that much gear can take some time.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to berate you. Far from it. I just wanted to share an insight to another way costs in a bicycle repair shop can be structured.


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## The English Hacker (May 30, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Wrench-to you point-quote from THE LBS
> 
> "We are waiving the labor costs involved to strip off the OEM parts and completely rebuild the bike to your specifications. Most bike shops would probably not offer to do this as it erodes our profit margin."
> 
> I understand but if I do not buy anything you will not need to worry about margin... I wish businesses could sometime understand you cannot take a margin percentage to the bank. You only take profit dollars, and if you get no dollars you have no profit...


Assuming they are a busy shop there's a lost opportunity cost to doing work for you for less than they can someone else. Even if they are not busy, reducing their labor cost dilutes the perceived value of the work they do.


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## gumbafish (Jan 11, 2011)

As a completely random aside a few years ago I brought my old mountain bike frame and a box full of all of my old components from my previous bike to my shop and they built the whole bike up including running new cables for like $150-200. I didn't buy a single part there, but maybe they cut me a break because at the time I was a broke college kid.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*group prices*

As I understand it Campy USA sets the price for all US sales. There is no other distributor and no competition. You'd be better off buying the original bike, selling the Ultegra parts on ebay and then buying Campy from the UK. Of course that may end your relationship with your LBS. I am am Campy fan (I have 3 Campy bikes) but their marketing and sales strategy seems destined for failure, at least in the US market


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

DaveG said:


> As I understand it Campy USA sets the price for all US sales. There is no other distributor and no competition. You'd be better off buying the original bike, selling the Ultegra parts on ebay and then buying Campy from the UK. Of course that may end your relationship with your LBS. I am am Campy fan (I have 3 Campy bikes) but their marketing and sales strategy seems destined for failure, at least in the US market


agreed. That is what I have chose to do as it makes the most sense. Frankly I would have expected the LBS to counter and say shop time would be worth x (200) and convenience for you and us worth 100 so would you pay an extra 300 and save 300? I would have said yes. Apparently the art of selling is dead... Not too mention customer service. Oh well. Ordered the kit, called my other LBS and they said they will do the swap out for 200.00 and offered to buy the Ultegra kit. Win/Win as they now have my business and I dropped 400.00 on a Kurt Kinetic trainer with them...


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

UrbanPrimitive said:


> I'm sorry to hear your experience was so harrowing. Hopefully that won't be the case in the future. Around my area the most expensive shop also has the worst customer service. Yet people still line up for them. I don't quite get it either. That said, this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't read it that way at all (berated) Thanks for the info, did not know that. That said I would have happily paid for an install had they countered (they should have at least given me some options) In the end worked out great as we have a ton of bike shops in Portland and the one closer to my house is going to do the swap for 200.00 just costs me an extra week without my bike...cost the other LBS a bunch of $$ and a customer. Lost opportunity. Where has the art of selling gone?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

DaveG said:


> As I understand it Campy USA sets the price for all US sales. There is no other distributor and no competition. You'd be better off buying the original bike, selling the Ultegra parts on ebay and then buying Campy from the UK. Of course that may end your relationship with your LBS. I am am Campy fan (I have 3 Campy bikes) but their marketing and sales strategy seems destined for failure, at least in the US market


this isn't completely true. Campy USA is the 'importer', and i believe they set prices...but not many shops buy much of anything directly from them. most shops will buy through their normal distributors, many of which sell Campy. QBP, Sinclair, and Hawley to name but a few are Campy distributors in the USA. 
the difference between here and europe is that shops there can buy directly from Campy.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

Another local shop agreed to do the swap for 205.00 which seems like a great deal. The LBS where I am buying the bike did not seem to happy with me and pointed out that the warranty is void if not installed by an authorized dealer. I looked at the warranty briefly but did not see that specific wording. Sure wouldn't seem fair to force you into having a specific dealer install group sets when it can be done by ost people with the right tools and bike sense... Anyone else have input on warranty issues? The LBS then said they would do the build with the parts I bought for 300.00 They will be lucky if I stop dragging their name through the mud...


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## jpatkinson (Jun 10, 2007)

To the original poster: why didn't you just order the frame and have them build it exactly as you wanted, from scratch, instead of messing with all of this. I mean, if you are already spending more than a couple thousand dollars on this bike, is it really worth affecting a relationship with the LBS over a couple hundred bucks? My LBS is putting my bike together for no charge, and they are pulling the parts together at internet prices for me.


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## Royal28 (Feb 9, 2012)

jpatkinson said:


> To the original poster: why didn't you just order the frame and have them build it exactly as you wanted, from scratch, instead of messing with all of this. I mean, if you are already spending more than a couple thousand dollars on this bike, is it really worth affecting a relationship with the LBS over a couple hundred bucks? My LBS is putting my bike together for no charge, and they are pulling the parts together at internet prices for me.


I agree - in my opinion, in this day and age far too many people that are just natural penny pinchers hide behind accusations like "the art of selling is gone" and obsolete falsehoods such as "the customer must always be happy". Obviously, a shop that has successfully been running is not being firm on a price (at the risk of alienating the OP) because they're incompetent; they're making an informed decision based on their business model and their experience operating their business. I think it is poor form to expect the LBS to do everything to satisfy you, without any attempt to meet them halfway as a customer (i.e. compromise on price). This is true especially in the case of the OP, who is ready to do his utmost to trash the reputation of a LBS over $300 on a $3500 bike, and then proceeds to drop $400 on a Kinetic trainer at another shop without a glance as to what trainers are a better bang for the buck. I don't think the OP understands that you don't cultivate a cost-saving relationship with a LBS overnight.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

My opinions:

Assuming the headset has been installed and steerer is cut, installing a groupset on a bike takes at most an hour for a competant professional mechanic (I can do it in about 90 minutes and I'm only semi-competant). I know it's probably an average price for an LBS and I don't mean to alienate any shop owners here but charging $205.00 for an hour's work seems very high to me. I'd recommend the OP spend an hour watching YouTube videos and do the work himself. It's one of the easier things to do.

Secondly, I'm confused as to why the OP is buying a bike that comes with 6700 if he wants Chorus in the first place. Alternatively, if he doesn't want to do the work (which is perfectly understandable), why not buy all the parts online and find a shop willing to put it together? Have them do a full fitting (which is a good idea anyway) and they'll make plenty of margin.

Lastly, as a general point I think LBSs are probably best served by setting a price and sticking to their guns. The "squishyness" in some shop's pricing always makes me think things are a bit shady. No offense but I don't have the time or inclination to "build a relationship" with an LBS. I definitely will support a local shop if I feel they've given me good service and am happy to pay a bit more to keep a local business' doors open, but I'm uncomfortable with a "quid pro quo" arrangement. Complete transparency in pricing is what I like best, even if it means I don't get any favors.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

Hiro, you've never worked in a shop, have you? There's no such thing as uninterrupted, hour-long spans of work for any competent mechanic.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

jpatkinson said:


> To the original poster: why didn't you just order the frame and have them build it exactly as you wanted, from scratch, instead of messing with all of this. I mean, if you are already spending more than a couple thousand dollars on this bike, is it really worth affecting a relationship with the LBS over a couple hundred bucks? My LBS is putting my bike together for no charge, and they are pulling the parts together at internet prices for me.


Bingo!

That's what I've done on the last three bikes I've purchased. Most recent was a frame and fork I bought off ebay, wheels I had built custom by an outfit I found on the web, Campy Athena groupset plus other odds and ends from a UK vendor (Ribble), and a close out Zipp bar and Deda stem from Excel Sports. I probably spent 6 montjhs amassing all this stuff, but I had fun and there's not a single thing on that bike that's not exactly what I wanted. No Tectronics brakes, or FSA cranks, or any of that crap that comes on an "Ultegra equipped" bike from most LBS. I took the whole kit and kabootle into my LBS and had them assemble it for me. They were happy to do it for $150 and I was glad to pay it because they do a nice job, and it saves me time. 

I guess maybe the one problem here is suppose you want a mass market bike like a Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, etc. Do those come available as frames? I'm guessing no. So I guess you're left with three options:

1. Just accept the bike the way it is equipped;
2. Pay out the ying yang to get it equipped the way you want; or
3. Look for a bike available as a frame only and then equip it the way you want.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

-dustin said:


> Hiro, you've never worked in a shop, have you? There's no such thing as uninterrupted, hour-long spans of work for any competent mechanic.


^ this, exactly ^


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## savagemann (Dec 17, 2011)

Hiro11 said:


> My opinions:
> 
> Assuming the headset has been installed and steerer is cut, installing a groupset on a bike takes at most an hour for a competant professional mechanic (I can do it in about 90 minutes and I'm only semi-competant). I know it's probably an average price for an LBS and I don't mean to alienate any shop owners here but charging $205.00 for an hour's work seems very high to me.


I think it would take a bit longer than an hour.
Remember, the bike comes in a box, 90% assembled.
Everything must be removed first, before the build can commence.
All new cables and housing need to be routed.
Shifters positioned.
Bars wrapped.
Brakes positioned, pads adjusted.
Chain cut to length.
Everything torqued to spec....etc etc.
Id say more like 3 hours to make everything perfect.
Then throw in interruptions.
Next thing you know, the bike is in the stand for most of the day.
Im sure a fitting is also included.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

-dustin said:


> Hiro, you've never worked in a shop, have you? There's no such thing as uninterrupted, hour-long spans of work for any competent mechanic.


How is that relevant? An hour is an hour is an hour, regardless of it the hour is done in 10 minute increments or an hour straight.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*thanks for clarifying that*



cxwrench said:


> this isn't completely true. Campy USA is the 'importer', and i believe they set prices...but not many shops buy much of anything directly from them. most shops will buy through their normal distributors, many of which sell Campy. QBP, Sinclair, and Hawley to name but a few are Campy distributors in the USA.
> the difference between here and europe is that shops there can buy directly from Campy.


If PBK or Ribble ever go under I'll have to switch to SRAM 'cause I'm not paying Campy USA prices


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2012)

Royal28 said:


> I agree - in my opinion, in this day and age far too many people that are just natural penny pinchers hide behind accusations like "the art of selling is gone" and obsolete falsehoods such as "the customer must always be happy". Obviously, a shop that has successfully been running is not being firm on a price (at the risk of alienating the OP) because they're incompetent; they're making an informed decision based on their business model and their experience operating their business. I think it is poor form to expect the LBS to do everything to satisfy you, without any attempt to meet them halfway as a customer (i.e. compromise on price). This is true especially in the case of the OP, who is ready to do his utmost to trash the reputation of a LBS over $300 on a $3500 bike, and then proceeds to drop $400 on a Kinetic trainer at another shop without a glance as to what trainers are a better bang for the buck. I don't think the OP understands that you don't cultivate a cost-saving relationship with a LBS overnight.


I would like to point out I went out of my way on several occasions with this LBS to try and make the deal work for both of us including offering them more $$ then it would cost me to buy and have another shop put the parts on. I believe that was more than fair and for the life of me cannot figure out what about the deal didn't work for them other than they just dug their heals in. In the end, they have insulted me by stating "we are adults and need to make a living wage" (I do not disagree but I want to spend my hard earned wage wisely as well) and stating the warranty would be void if I have another shop do the work (such BS tactics like these make me sick) 

This LBS took what could have been a great relationship and a win/win right out of the box and pissed all over it. They stood hard and fast on their price and if that is their business model, good for them. In this day and age that model will only last so long as the person paying is going to expect the best service and at least a fair price. I am always happy to pay more for better than average service but they did not offer it (hell I tipped the lady who shaved my face with a straight razor 40% after she went out of her way to fit me in and was fantastic, and she wasn't my regular person either) 

What it really comes down to in the end is communication and the tone of that communication. I was very "soft" on how I approached the cost difference originally and open to discussion on how to make it work for all parties. Instead of the LBS looking at this as an opportunity they attacked with "who will be there when the oarts fail" "we need to make a living wage" "we can't erode all of our profit" I hope the LBS can learn from the issue (I highly doubt it they have several bad reviews which echo this experience) 

As I had stated before, we have a ton of awesome LBS (unfortunately the other 2 which I love did not sell the Bianchi) I rode several bikes at each shop and my experience at the others was fantastic and they both felt I made a good choice in my bike even though they didn't sell it to me. 

As many of you can attest, buying a new road bike is a very personal and difficult decision most of the time. I have spent the last several years thinking and looking and this year I was hoping to find the right one for me. I finally found it at a shop I drove out of the way to get too. I paid the full retail and will get the bike I want minus the upgrades and they will make a living wage on this transaction. Unfortunately for them I believe most of a bike shops profit is not in the sale of a bike but in the service, accessories and good reputation they have in the community. I have no doubt this LBS will survive but as a business owner myself I just wonder how much more good they could do in the community (not too mention they could increase their profits over time)...

“Even though we ride non-polluting bicycles to save mankind, we lock our bikes because we can't trust mankind”


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