# 5 times TDF winner



## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

Is officially the standard to beat again-yaeah!!!


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Congratuations to Alex Zulle, Jan Ullrich, Joseba Beloki, Andreas Kloden, and Ivan Basso on their Tour de France wins.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> Congratuations to Alex Zulle, Jan Ullrich, Joseba Beloki, Andreas Kloden, and Ivan Basso on their Tour de France wins.


What a mess. Anyone think these guys were clean?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

woodys737 said:


> What a mess. Anyone think these guys were clean?


LMAO. You actually have to ask with that list?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

I think they should just reverse order of finishes, meaning all Lanterne Rouge's are now the winners.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Marc said:


> LMAO. You actually have to ask with that list?


Was being sarcastic my man.


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## M5Manny (Jun 13, 2012)

To question who was and wasn't doping a decade or more ago is a tough road to haul. We should all move on with supporting a clean sport regardless of what the UCI says is still a dirty sport.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I think they should just reverse order of finishes, meaning all Lanterne Rouge's are now the winners.


Yes!!!!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Creakyknees said:


> Congratuations to Alex Zulle, Jan Ullrich, Joseba Beloki, Andreas Kloden, and Ivan Basso on their Tour de France wins.


ASO will not be giving these guys the titles. They have already said they will leave it blank


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

Does Lance have to return all those yellow jerseys?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

M5Manny said:


> To question who was and wasn't doping a decade or more ago is a tough road to haul. We should all move on with supporting a clean sport regardless of what the UCI says is still a dirty sport.


True but, stripping tour wins from one doper and give them to the next best doper is not logical. McQuaid, should have all the answers. More sarcasm Marc


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

MikeBiker said:


> Does Lance have to return all those yellow jerseys?


Well, I heard the ASO wants their $3-4million USD back. What are a few jerseys to that?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

woodys737 said:


> True but, stripping tour wins from one doper and give them to the next best doper is not logical. McQuaid, should have all the answers. More sarcasm Marc


Unfortunately Gregggggg has not implemented the [SARCASM] markups on RBR. :thumbsup:


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## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

woodys737 said:


> Was being sarcastic my man.



Sarcasm doesn't really work well in this context.


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## Bullvine (Sep 9, 2009)

They all ride with a needle hanging off there arse everyone knows this. If you were to move past the TDF and make an honest assessment you would find all of the race results in the Pro ranks distorted by drugs say for the last 15-20 years.. Even before that you had folks chewing on coca & opium.

The riders have always looked for advantage and they always will...


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## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I think they should just reverse order of finishes, meaning all Lanterne Rouge's are now the winners.


I kind of like that.


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## FR hokeypokey (Apr 12, 2010)

Marc said:


> Well, I heard the ASO wants their $3-4million USD back. What are a few jerseys to that?


Since cycling tradition dictates the TdF winnings is given to the team, I would say ASO should start there. 

As for the Yellow Jerseys, which one would he return? He was awarded and signed dozens of them at the finish lines. They are given to local dignitaries, museums, sponsors and even the ASO itself . Does it really matter it is the framed one from the final day.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

Marc said:


> Well, I heard the ASO wants their $3-4million USD back. What are a few jerseys to that?


That sucks for all the guys LA divided those earnings with. I guess they'll need to give that back as well. Hopefully Landis hasn't spent all of his yet.


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## early one (Jul 20, 2010)

Was Miguel Indurain clean?


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

It's a good thing Coppi, Merckx, Anquetil were all clean and pure as driven snow. Also, Indurain, a Spanish rider from the early ninties. Straight aguaipana for that guy.


That was sarcastic.


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## FR hokeypokey (Apr 12, 2010)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I think they should just reverse order of finishes, meaning all Lanterne Rouge's are now the winners.


Nice idea, but if all we are learning is true. Entire teams doped, not just the podium.

The last rider was probably doping too. More then likely he was using to hold onto his roster spot, survive the three weeks and earn a paycheck. 

Do you seriously have any confidence that they didn't?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

FR hokeypokey said:


> Nice idea, but if all we are learning is true. Entire teams doped, not just the podium.
> 
> The last rider was probably doping too. More then likely he was using to hold onto his roster spot, survive the three weeks and earn a paycheck.
> 
> Do you seriously have any confidence that they didn't?


So what you're saying is everyone is/was hopped up on PEDs, and some just really really really sucked at it? Note: I'm playing debil's advocate here.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

early one said:


> Was Miguel Indurain clean?


Short answer...

View attachment 267248


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

It's not that they sucked at doping. It's that not all had the resources that others had. (More money for better or selective doctors, private jets to avoid customs searches, etc.) 

Also, within a team, drug quantities or levels could be withheld to maintain the team order.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Marc said:


> Unfortunately Gregggggg has not implemented the [SARCASM] markups on RBR. :thumbsup:


On another forum I occasionally visit they use a pink font to indicate sarcasm.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

SicBith said:


> That sucks for all the guys LA divided those earnings with. I guess they'll need to give that back as well. Hopefully Landis hasn't spent all of his yet.


Good thing he did not pay a bunch of them


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

woodys737 said:


> What a mess. Anyone think these guys were clean?


I don't think any of them raced clean. 

To me, what matters is that Lance was the one who was the racketeer. While these other contenders were just dopers, Lance was the doping ringleader on Postal/Disco. He and Johan pressured riders to dope on Lance's behalf. He intimidated witnesses. And he has yet to (and probably never will) acknowledge to the public that he doped.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

early one said:


> Was Miguel Indurain clean?


Assuming that 1990-1991 marks the start of the EPO era, thinking that he rode clean and beat a doped up peloton 5 years running requires the same leap of faith that accepting Armstrong's string did.

But, I seriously doubt that the Spanish anti-doping agency has any interest in going back and testing his B-samples. :wink:


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I think they should just reverse order of finishes, meaning all Lanterne Rouge's are now the winners.


This is the answer :idea:


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

Creakyknees said:


> Congratuations to Alex Zulle, Jan Ullrich, Joseba Beloki, Andreas Kloden, and Ivan Basso on their Tour de France wins.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

"Is officially the standard to beat again-yaeah!!! "

Good. Now's my chance.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Creakyknees said:


> Congratuations to Alex Zulle, Jan Ullrich, Joseba Beloki, Andreas Kloden, and Ivan Basso on their Tour de France wins.





woodys737 said:


> What a mess. Anyone think these guys were clean?


I LOL'd! :thumbsup:


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

M5Manny said:


> To question who was and wasn't doping a decade or more ago is a tough road to haul. We should all move on with supporting a clean sport regardless of what the UCI says is still a dirty sport.


See you at the bowling lanes.


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## surfinguru (Jun 17, 2004)

I think they should just put an asterisk next to every winner during this "era" with a footnote saying they were all loaded to the gills with every PED imaginable and be done with it. How can they possibly give those titles to anyone else now that the jig is up?!?

Moving forward, starting with the 2013 season, ANYONE who gets caught is out on their a**. No six month suspension during the off season. No one or two year bans. Just done, finito. You are done!

Ok, I know, it's a very altruistic stance to take, but at this point is there really any other option? Well, unless you just let em all dope it up anything goes....


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

TerminatorX91 said:


> Sarcasm doesn't really work well in this context.


Perhaps you're right Terminator. The whole situation is so fubar'd it's pointless to be sarcastic I guess.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

I don't think any of this matters if McQuaid, Verbruggen, and the UCI stay unchanged. They are an incredible cluster**** of an organization.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

burgrat said:


> I don't think any of this matters if McQuaid, Verbruggen, and the UCI stay unchanged. They are an incredible cluster**** of an organization.


It's so easy to just point the finger and say you're "disgusted" by Armstrong, all the while vigorously defending yourself from the likes of Kimmage. It makes me want to puke. I find it hard to believe that the most successful cyclist in the world, under constant surveilance, could get away with such a vast conspiracy without the complicancy of the UCI. As Hamilton has pointed out, there's a fundamental conflict of interest inherent in the UCI's jurisdiction: they are have huge incentives to look the other way.


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## azpeterb (Jun 1, 2006)

Marc said:


> Well, I heard the ASO wants their $3-4million USD back. What are a few jerseys to that?


So what if the TDF or UCI officials demand that he returns the yellow jerseys but Lance tells them to suck it? Are they going to go all Ruby Ridge on him?


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Good thing he did not pay a bunch of them


Even if he did I'm not convinced ASO would have any recourse to go after his teammates. It's tradition not law. If he chose to give it to his teammates that's his choice but it doesn't mean that the liability would pass to them I wouldn't think.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Merckx tested positive three times.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Merckx tested positive three times.


They should strip him from his titles and ban him!


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## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Merckx tested positive three times.




I think he has been quoted saying that he took anything he could get his hands on. I am pretty sure if they went after his yellow jerseys he would go all Ruby Ridge on them!


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

il sogno said:


> I don't think any of them raced clean.
> 
> To me, what matters is that Lance was the one who was the racketeer. While these other contenders were just dopers, Lance was the doping ringleader on Postal/Disco. He and Johan pressured riders to dope on Lance's behalf. He intimidated witnesses. And he has yet to (and probably never will) acknowledge to the public that he doped.


Didn't Barry say that Hincapie pressured him to dope?

Granted, Lance has gone way beyond that, but I don't quite buy the narrative that Lance & Johan were the big bullies on Postal and everyone else was just bullied. Didn't Floyd at some point mention that Lance dumped his blood bag down the toilet as retribution, suggesting the other riders wanted the dope or infusion?


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Good thing he did not pay a bunch of them


Cool... I guess whomever he did pay will get to pay him back. Maybe the rest of the bunch won't be bitter about not getting paid anymore.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

So five is the standard? Do you think Big Mig was clean?


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## slegros (Sep 22, 2009)

YamaDan said:


> So five is the standard? Do you think Big Mig was clean?


No.

Hinault and Merckx likely used banned substances, but nothing with the same effect of EPO. Hinault and Merckx could and probably often did win clean. Paul Koechli at La Vie Claire was notoriously strict about doping. I seem to recall the team had a no needles policy. There's a reason Koechli left cycling....

Theres a big difference between amphetamines, cortisone and the like, and oxygen boosting drugs/methods. Fignon had a section in his biography talking about riding in the mountains later in his career, and climbing possibly better than he had at any point in his life, only to get passed by a large group of riders. He says thats when it really hit him just how powerful EPO was, and that there was a HUGE difference between EPO and other drugs.

I think its fairly obvious. You look back at all the great champions, and they all displayed amazing talent from very young ages. Hinault, LeMond, Coppi, Merckx were all prodigies on bikes from a very young age. They were 'nurtured' as opposed to 'manufactured' into champions.

Indurain, Armstrong, Bugno, Chiapucci, and others linked to EPO use were decent professionals who underwent a 'transformation' mid career..... :idea:

Lance IMO is the best example to date of a 'manufactured' champion. Lots of money involved, and not just for Lance...... He's our guy to sell the product/image, and he's willing..... Lets 'build' a marketable champion...... Lance is an idiot, but I'm sure there was an entire entourage of enablers behind the scenes who were on board and probably helped mastermind his rise... Just my conspiracy theory for the day......


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## FR hokeypokey (Apr 12, 2010)

I suppose I will be called a fanboy for this, but... 

You do realize that Armstrong was as much of an athletic prodigy as any cyclists you mentioned. Far from "manufactured" as you call it. 

He was a world class triathlete as a teen, Juniors World Champion, won a stage in the TdF and a World Champion by age 20. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe any of the testimony or evidence of doping occurred until after his return from cancer treatment.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

FR hokeypokey said:


> I suppose I will be called a fanboy for this, but...
> 
> You do realize that Armstrong was as much of an athletic prodigy as any cyclists you mentioned. Far from "manufactured" as you call it.
> 
> ...


He was 21 when he won World Champion.


And he sucked in the TDF before he had cancer.

That's why Greg LeMond was disappointed when Pharmstrong won the prologue in the '99 TDF. It was Greg's first evidence that Pharmstrong started doping.


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## slegros (Sep 22, 2009)

FR hokeypokey said:


> I suppose I will be called a fanboy for this, but...
> 
> You do realize that Armstrong was as much of an athletic prodigy as any cyclists you mentioned. Far from "manufactured" as you call it.
> 
> ...


Pre cancer LA was a good professional. Capable of winning classics, and the worlds. He never had the ability to dominate the grand tours. It was systemic doping that gave him that ability. Hinault and Merckx could win ANYTHING, ANYTIME and did from a very young age. Hinault came in and DESTROYED the peloton at 19-20.

Lance was NEVER that good in his early 20s. Not even close.

Have a look at LeMond's early career. His palmares put LAs to shame. He was regularly challenging for GC in grand tours and placing in the classics. LeMond was better BEFORE he got shot than after. Unfortunately because he won 2 tours after coming back people think he returned to the same form he had before he got shot. Fact is he was a more complete rider who could challenge for almost anything year-round before he got shot, and never quite hit the same heights after coming back.

What was LA's Tour record pre cancer? (Pre-Ferrari) Oh yeah....... :idea:

Ask anyone who ever rode against Lance in his late teens/early 20's if they thought he had a tour win in him, most will tell you Bobby Julich and Hincapie were better at the time.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

wesb321 said:


> I think he has been quoted saying that he took anything he could get his hands on. I am pretty sure if they went after his yellow jerseys he would go all Ruby Ridge on them!


or at least Ruby Tuesday. :aureola:


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

SicBith said:


> That sucks for all the guys LA divided those earnings with. I guess they'll need to give that back as well. Hopefully Landis hasn't spent all of his yet.


 Ha ha ha ha ha ha that means all the guys who testified against him would have to give him back the money !! Since it's the custom for the team leader to divide the earnings among the team members.
Too funny.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

superg said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha ha that means all the guys who testified against him would have to give him back the money !! Since it's the custom for the team leader to divide the earnings among the team members.
> Too funny.


Well, no. ASO knows who they paid the money to, and he's the guy they'll want it back from. They don't give a **** about what he did with it after they handed it to him. 

I guess then he can take the other guys to court to try and get it back from them---the ones that he didn't stiff, at least. But I think courts are the last things that he wants to see right about now. :lol:


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