# An Open Letter About Bikesdirect.com



## hhuffman

Hello All, 

First, I am not a shill, nor in any way related to Bikesdirect aside from being a satisfied customer. I am a 37 year old Army officer with two kids who like soccer. There, no more credentials. Oh, and I worked in a bike store for much of my time at college. 

Background: I was an Ironman Triathlete for many years until my kids came along. Both of my previous road bikes we road bikes but set up for tris. First was a Trek 7200, which was carbon main tubes fitted into aluminum headtube and BB. The second was a Kestral 300 EMS, which was made in the USA, and while they were in their heyday. 

After my last Ironman in August of 2001, I gave up road riding altogether for mountain biking and eventually DH. In the mean time I sold my Kestral and forgot about anything road related and didn't stay up at all on where the tech was going. 

Fast forward to 45 days ago, when I got a new job and learned they had a road cycling club. Suddenly I became interested in it again. 

My budget was definitely less than $2,000, preferably closer to $1,500. 

Now, I know since it has been so long since I road seriously I didn't NEED a high tech bike, but as a lifelong “some kind of biker” I knew that if I went cheap I would regret it forever. So I set a goal of either ti or carbon, with the median component group being Ultegra (maybe a piece of 105 or two) 

I researched like hell and at first looked at the big boys, Trek Madone and Specialized Roubaix, and I couldn't even find one 2 years used for less than $2K. Finally I came across bikesdirect.com and although very skeptical at first it piqued my interest so I started googling and researching them. 

Now I already knew that 90% of frames are manufactured by Giant, Martek or only a couple other makers of bikes in the world, and there was room for a low cost provider to offer a similar product for a much lower cost by cutting out the factory team and big ad budget. I just didn't know whether bikesdirect was that company. 

I read every single one of Mike’s (bikesdirect owner I think) rebuttals to all of the trash the company gets on these forums and was impressed at how he took the criticism in stride and never responded to nasty remarks, keeping the conversation civil and professional. That actually made a big impression on me. I e-mailed him for reassurance that the frames were legit and he responded in a very timely manner. I quickly became convinced that he is a good businessman who found a way to sell the same bike the big boys sell for $3,500 at a fraction of the cost. 

I purchased a Motobecane Immortal Force for $1,595. It has nearly all Ultegra except for the brakes (Cane Creek), cranks (FSA SL-K Light crank) and headset (FSA I think). Wheels are Mavic Aksium, and most other components are Ritchey. 

Here's my review of the bike: It rides like a dream. Very stiff, agile in turns and takes off like a bat out of hell. I am 6’3 and 210 lbs. (no I am not fat, I work out with weights and have put on about 30 lbs of good weight since my Ironman days) When I am cranking there is virtually no sway of the bottom bracket. 

The bike came completely built except: front wheel, stem, seatpost and front brake. I had it out of the box and put together in 20 minutes. I had it up on the stand making adjustments for about 30 minutes after that, but bike shops spend the same amount of time with the Madone’s and Roubaix’s before they are ready to ride as well. 

Things I am not psyched about: The brake pads suck. The brakes themselves are great but after first ride I swapped for dura ace pads ($15 at local shop for both front and rear) Problem solved. 

Although the Aksium’s are top notch for the money, they are heavy for road wheels. 1,800 grams is a lot of rotating weight. I have looked into lighter wheels but honestly at my weight, and the fact they are bombproof I am going to hold on to them. 

I had a Ritchey seat post on a Specialized mountain bike many tears ago and it wouldn’t stop sliding down so I replaced it and had a lingering bad taste in my mouth about the brand, but after 90 miles on this stuff so far I have absolutely no complaints. 

In conclusion. I am supremely happy with every single part of my transaction with bikesdirect.com. I would absolutely buy from them again as well as recommend that my friends and family buy from them.

Last point I would like to make. I have asked myself this question a couple of times and the answer remains the same. If I could buy either a Madone or Roubaix with the same exact components, how much more would I be willing to spend? Answer: $150 max. I know resale value would be better, but that’s not why I bought the bike. I would spend the money primarily as the names have more cache, not because I think they are better bikes. No more than $150. 

If you have any questions about my bike or transaction please don’t hesitate to PM me, I will respond promptly. 

Best,
Heath


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## buck-50

Glad you got a bike you like at a good price.

That said, what is it about BD and completely overblown, loooooong posts about how great BD is?

I mean seriously, I'm very happy that you got a bike that makes you happy, but I reading about all the transactional details is just tedious.

I can almost guarantee that next time I buy a bike, If I post any kind of review, it's not going to be about the process of buying it or details of my cycling CV. I'm going to focus on the bike. 

Ride well and welcome back to the pack. Now quit talking and get riding!


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## runningdog

Cool Thanks for the feedback, I am ordering a bike from them on Friday..

Also Thanks for you service


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## hhuffman

I wrote it only to counteract the negativity towards BD. And the fact that I PSYCHED I saved $1,500 on my awesome bike.


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## DrSmile

But you could have bought a Trek...

Glad to hear about your positive experience, I hope you ride the bike for years to come.


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## hhuffman

DrSmile said:


> But you could have bought a Trek...
> 
> Glad to hear about your positive experience, I hope you ride the bike for years to come.


Not for the money I paid.


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## kiwisimon

glad to read your experience. Re:the bad stuff about BD on these forums, as in most cases it's the pissed off people who make the most noise or just sh!t stirrers. It's good to read the positive. Now you have a fast bike it's time to work on the motor. Ride safe.


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## terry b

What generates the antipathy on the forums is the constant stream of "I love BD" threads that evolved into "Let me start by saying that I am not a shill but I do love BD" threads.

No one likes their forums to be used as a vehicle for spam, and I think the assumption is that most of them have been just that. True or not, who knows?

What you've done is kick the hornet's nest one more time, with an even higher level of personal qualifications. While I am sure your story is genuine, you should appreciate that it follows a long list of the same kind of post offered across all the cycling forums. 

I have the utmost respect for Mike and his business model - putting people on reasonably equipped bikes for a decent price can only be viewed as a good thing. At the same time, achieving that through false name association via recycling venerated brands seems really cheesy, to me. And a lot of the negativity has been associated with just that. But given the age of those brands, I'm going to bet that many BD customers today don't even make the association. I grew up in a time when Motobecane meant something, most of today's consumers didn't.

Enjoy your bike, the important thing is that you had budget and got the most for it that you could. And you're happy with the result. No one can ask for anything more than that.


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## TomH

i had a windsor i got from them for rediculously cheap, something like 350 shipped. was a great bike for the price.. comparable to most of the lbs offerings up to about a grand. rode similar or better, parts spec similar or better. put a couple hundred miles on it.

it didnt fit because i bought it blindly online and sold it solely due to fit.. which is kind of the cliff notes of online purchases. great value, usually pretty good bikes overall, but you really dont know if its going to fit you until it shows up. if i got a size down i would have kept the bike. 

i had no problems with bikesdirect, but i didnt expect much going in. i gave them my money and the bike arrived as described. if you need more help than that, online bikes probably arent for you!


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## w4ta

Given the few negatively tinged responses to the OP... and to just about any BD post... one can understand a 100% satisfied customer's desire to enlighten and offer confidence to those who are either unnerved or immediately turned off by the negativity. 

Anyone who attempts to research BD on the forums is going to find a lot of hostility. Damned near turned me off completely... but I found enough reasonable and seemingly credible endorsements to recommend BD to two acquaintances. In both cases, I assembled and tested the bikes, and they were fantastic, more bike than either could have otherwise afforded.

So... I greatly appreciate the lengthy OP, and others like it. This post will be the difference maker for many future buyers who might otherwise be discouraged by a lot of the uninformed BD trashing that takes place in the forums.


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## SystemShock

hhuffman said:


> Fast forward to 45 days ago, when I got a new job and learned they had a road cycling club. Suddenly I became interested in it again.
> 
> My budget was definitely less than $2,000, preferably closer to $1,500.
> 
> ...I researched like hell and at first looked at the big boys, Trek Madone and Specialized Roubaix, and I couldn't even find one 2 years used for less than $2K.


That's slightly odd, considering there are brand NEW Roubaixes MSRP'ing for under $2K, and there are brand new Madones going for an MSRP of $2100 (probably sub-$2k street price if you look around).
.


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## Coolhand

Look, posting a review of your new bike without pictures makes me sad. Always post a picture, preferably with a family pet in it as well. At least in front of the cliched white garage door!


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## bikesdirect

hhuffman said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I purchased a Motobecane Immortal Force for $1,595.
> If you have any questions about my bike or transaction please don’t hesitate to PM me, I will respond promptly.
> 
> Best,
> Heath


Heath

Thanks for your purchase
I know you will enjoy your bike

if you ever need anything; just drop me PM here, or mtbr.com, or bikeforums.net

Have fun 
Mike


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## stevesbike

I hope it doesn't break- you'd be SOL. There's no warranty on their carbon bikes.


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## filtersweep

stevesbike said:


> I hope it doesn't break- you'd be SOL. There's no warranty on their carbon bikes.


Whatever. There is no warranty on my Look either. Grow up. Bikes generally don't just "break."


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## bikesdirect

filtersweep said:


> Whatever. There is no warranty on my Look either. Grow up. Bikes generally don't just "break."


That is for sure! I have yet to see one defect on a Motobecane Carbon Fiber Frame. Thousands sold, and not a single failure due to defective materials or workmanship. 

This maybe due to our sourcing of all carbon frames from Taiwan instead of China. However, even on the CF frames that other companies bring from China - you hardly ever see an actual defect.


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## stevesbike

bikesdirect said:


> That is for sure! I have yet to see one defect on a Motobecane Carbon Fiber Frame. Thousands sold, and not a single failure due to defective materials or workmanship.
> 
> This maybe due to our sourcing of all carbon frames from Taiwan instead of China. However, even on the CF frames that other companies bring from China - you hardly ever see an actual defect.


actually, Look has a 5 year warranty. I had one separate at a lug on the headtube and was replaced for free. 

What about the thread below this - one of your frames broke at what appears to be a badly designed dropout? Or do you simply blame all such breaks on your customers - an easy way to say there's no failures with your frames. And if there's no failures ever why do you exclude your carbon frames from your warranty??


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## bikesdirect

stevesbike said:


> actually, Look has a 5 year warranty. I had one separate at a lug on the headtube and was replaced for free.
> 
> What about the thread below this - one of your frames broke at what appears to be a badly designed dropout? Or do you simply blame all such breaks on your customers - an easy way to say there's no failures with your frames. And if there's no failures ever why do you exclude your carbon frames from your warranty??



I can tell by your posts what your agenda is. But my agenda is not at all what you may think it is. You can rest assured however ~~ I do not post until I know.

There is a reason when we see a claim of 'frame defect', we ask for the complete bike back to inspect.

I will be posting a few examples in coming days of pictures we got on a frame and of an unrelated fork defect claim - including the one you mention. Then I post the full pictures of the complete bikes and what our inspection showed. 

No fair minded observer will conclude anything other than what I have stated.

The reason we exclude carbon fiber from the lifetime warranty that we give on metal is simple -- and is clearly stated by Trek and others; you can not evaluate CF the way you do metal. {or to put it another way, I can take any CF frame made and cause a fracture in it and you will not be able to know how I did it}

As you may know, I do not pay for defects, I do not pay for rent, I do not pay for shipping. And further Corporations do not pay taxes, Doctors do not pay for malpractice insurance, insurance companies do not pay for punitive damage awards. Consumers pay for everything. Any cost; wasted or not; is paid by you and I when we buy things for ourselves or our families. My job is to keep costs low and prevent waste for eating into the budgets of cyclists. As such I walk a fine line in keeping things fair for everyone. {you will find, the case you sited is being handled in a way that makes all customers happy - as is typical of us}

Stay tuned


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## DIRT BOY

bikesdirect said:


> The reason we exclude carbon fiber from the lifetime warranty that we give on metal is simple -- and is clearly stated by Trek and others; you can not evaluate CF the way you do metal. {or to put it another way, I can take any CF frame made and cause a fracture in it and you will not be able to know how I did it}


WHATT???? TREK has a warranty on their CF frames! ALL frames have a Lifetime warranty.

*TREK LIMITED WARRANTY*

All Trek bikes are sold exclusively through our network of Authorized Dealers who we entrust with professional assembly and service of your bicycle. Trek Bicycle Corporation warrants each new Trek frame, rigid fork, or original component part of the bicycle against defects in workmanship and materials:

The bicycle frame, except the fork and the Session model, for the lifetime of original owner
 
Rigid forks
All Bontrager components and accessories, except consumables such as tires and inner tubes
 
The Session model frame
 
Paint and decals
All original parts, excluding suspension forks, and rear shock absorbers
All original parts, excluding Shimano parts, suspension forks, and rear shock absorbers
All Shimano parts, suspension forks, and rear shock absorbers shall be covered by the stated warranty of the original manufacturer
 *This warranty does not cover:*


Normal wear and tear
Improper assembly
Improper follow-up maintenance
Installation of parts or accessories not originally intended for, or compatible with, the bicycle as sold
Damage or failure due to accident, misuse, abuse, or neglect
Labor charges for part replacement or changeover
 This warranty is void in its entirety by any modification of the frame, fork, or components. This warranty is expressly limited to the repair or replacement of a defective item and is the sole remedy of the warranty. This warranty extends from the date of purchase, applies only to the original owner, and is not transferable. Trek Bicycle Corporation is not responsible for incidental or consequential damages. Some states do not allow the exclusion of incidental or consequential damages, so the above exclusion may not apply to you. Claims under this warranty must be made through an authorized Trek dealer. Proof of purchase is required. The subject item must be registered with Trek Bicycle Corporation, either through on-line registration or by the receipt of a warranty registration card by Trek Bicycle Corporation, before a warranty claim may be processed. Warranty duration and detail may differ by frame type and/or by country. This warranty gives the consumer specific legal rights, and those rights may vary from place to place. This warranty does not affect the statutory rights of the consumer.
*Carbon Crash Replacement Policy:*

Assessing any damage done to a carbon fiber part requires more experience than is needed to inspect metal parts. If you crash or impact your bike and the force of the impact is absorbed by a carbon part, we strongly encourage you to replace the part, even if there are no indications of damage. If such a crash or impact occurs, Trek offers a crash replacement program for carbon parts, substantially reducing any replacement cost. To take advantage of this program, contact us using the information listed above and ask for the Warranty department.





A buddy had a 1st gen Madone replaced for FREE after a defect in the frame.


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## DIRT BOY

bikesdirect said:


> I can tell by your posts what your agenda is. But my agenda is not at all what you may think it is. You can rest assured however ~~ I do not post until I know.
> 
> There is a reason when we see a claim of 'frame defect', we ask for the complete bike back to inspect.
> 
> I will be posting a few examples in coming days of pictures we got on a frame and of an unrelated fork defect claim - including the one you mention. Then I post the full pictures of the complete bikes and what our inspection showed.
> 
> No fair minded observer will conclude anything other than what I have stated.
> 
> The reason we exclude carbon fiber from the lifetime warranty that we give on metal is simple -- and is clearly stated by Trek and others; you can not evaluate CF the way you do metal. {or to put it another way, I can take any CF frame made and cause a fracture in it and you will not be able to know how I did it}
> 
> As you may know, I do not pay for defects, I do not pay for rent, I do not pay for shipping. And further Corporations do not pay taxes, Doctors do not pay for malpractice insurance, insurance companies do not pay for punitive damage awards. Consumers pay for everything. Any cost; wasted or not; is paid by you and I when we buy things for ourselves or our families. My job is to keep costs low and prevent waste for eating into the budgets of cyclists. As such I walk a fine line in keeping things fair for everyone. {you will find, the case you sited is being handled in a way that makes all customers happy - as is typical of us}
> 
> Stay tuned


Just because you can't evaluate a CF damage by a photo, does NOT mean you can't tell it s a defect or a crash issue. To me, Moto/BD does NOT offer a warranty of a CF frames because YOU do not have the ability to make that judgment.

That's fine and the Moto warranty states there IS none. I would NEVER bike a new bike/frame without a warranty for defect, PERIOD. Wether you seen defects or not. Hell, each frame I have bought except for one MTB frame have LIFETIME warranty regardless of materials. I will NEVER buy a "nice" bike/frame that doe snot come with a lifetime warranty again.

Are defects rare, sure. But I am NOT taking chances.


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## The Green Hour

DIRT BOY said:


> WHATT???? TREK has a warranty on their CF frames! ALL frames have a Lifetime warranty .


Not taking sides on any of this, but Trek's warranty has a lot of stipulations that doesn't sound like it's a cut and dry replacement deal with no questions asked either.

The BD warranty in question doesn't seem that far out of line once you get over the phantom "Motobecane" company issue (which seems to be the initial sore spot.)

For me, I've only known of one person who had a defective frame. It was a Cannondale that was having corrosion issues and it was replaced under warranty. IMO, a frame with an "honest to god" factory defect is not as common as the bike forums would dictate, and there always will be a fine line between abuse and a defect as far as the manufacture goes.


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## DIRT BOY

The Green Hour said:


> Not taking sides on any of this, but Trek's warranty has a lot of stipulations that doesn't sound like it's a cut and dry replacement deal with no questions asked either.


Sure, everyones warranty is that way. I neve said it was no questions asked. Hell, NO ONE's is.
*
From another post from me.*

I personal, have dealt with 2 warranty issues on bike/frame.

1 yr warranty and frame was lifetime. a few days before the 2 yrs was up, my KLEIN frame's paint was peeling, chipping and bubbling. KLEIN asked for pictures and I sent it in on my dollar.

I was offered:

1. A free re-paint by the KLEIN/TREK project one guys in the same fade I had.

2. A same year model frame in a different color

3. A upgraded and current year frame if I preferred that color.

Shipped for FREE. I chose #3

My wife's Specialized Dolce had a crack in the HT after 2 rides (1 month). We bought a 2006 when the 2007's where arriving for a deal. Basic model.

I brought it to the the LBS (I never bought a bike or major part from them beside this bike.) and a Spec rep looked at it in 2 days. Since her frame was no longer available, they offered a new 2007 model that was the newt model up for FREE. Not a frame swap, but a complete new bike.

Everything was upgraded. Sora/105 to 105/Ultegra drivetrain. Spec cranks to FSA Gossamer, and better wheels, bars, etc.

The frame was much, much nicer.

My wife ill ride nothing BUT Specialized after that. She owned 4 of them and they all been great for here.

I had warranty with you guys and it was fine. Damaged wheel was replaced at your cost and never had to ship the old one back. Damaged BB though I was left on my own.

My Dawes had a crap paint job (2 months old) and you offered me a Kilo TT at a GREAT price to replace it. Not free like TREK, but it was fine. So to say that BD is more liberal, I would say no, at least with me.

Granted, Dawes does not have a warranty on paint, so I felt the Kilo offer was fair.


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## 20sMotoSpirit

SystemShock said:


> That's slightly odd, considering there are brand NEW Roubaixes MSRP'ing for under $2K, and there are brand new Madones going for an MSRP of $2100 (probably sub-$2k street price if you look around).
> .


The Only reason you would ever buy a Madone is if you were going to buy at least a 5 series bike. which all start out at 3K. The Madone 4.5 and 4.7 models are not worth the initial investment. Pay the extra money and you get the OCLV.


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## stevesbike

I don't have an agenda - I just think a business should be upfront with its customers. Your last post is another example of doublespeak - you keep saying you're just like the big companies but in fact you are not - Trek has a lifetime warranty against defects. Of course determining whether a frame was defective or damaged by abuse is relevant for every company. However, Motobecane does not have any such warranty against defects on carbon frames. That's simply the truth of the matter in terms of the legal wording of your warranty and its exclusions. So don't say you have a warranty just like Trek etc. What you have amounts to a no-fault crash replacement program. 

It's this repeated twisting of the truth that irks a lot of people about bikesdirect - websites pretending there's a dealership network for Motobecanes with no mention of bikesdirect, implying a lineage with storied European brands that doesn't exist. Comparing your non-warranty to genuine warranties of the major brands etc.


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## hhuffman

20sMotoSpirit said:


> The Only reason you would ever buy a Madone is if you were going to buy at least a 5 series bike. which all start out at 3K. The Madone 4.5 and 4.7 models are not worth the initial investment. Pay the extra money and you get the OCLV.


Exactly. Someone mentioned there were Madone's and Roubaix's for less than $2k but it's a cheaper frame and much lower components. As I mentioned initially, I wouldn't settle for much less than Ultegra. For those parts on a Madone or Roubaix I would have to get the top models and pay more than 2x what I paid for my Motobecane. 

What started as a simple explanation of a good business transaction has turned into a mud slinging match. I can’t believe how people can’t let this company have their cake and eat it too. 

Between my BMX, mountain and road bikes, I have literally owned at least 25 bikes in my lifetime and only once have I had to rely on a warranty. It was a Specialized Enduro and I was using it under very strenuous conditions. 

I have absolutely no fear this bike is going to blow up on me, so paying any more for a Madone because it has a better warranty is a non-issue.


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## hhuffman

terry b said:


> I grew up in a time when Motobecane meant something, most of today's consumers didn't.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Terry brings up an excellent point. What makes a bike or bike company "mean something"? After all, parts are all either shimano or Campy and a frame is just a cluster of tubes. Granted, some are designed and manufactured better than others, but it gets to a point where it's all marketing that seperates those that are special and those that aren't.
> 
> I believe that the Motobecane I am riding is at that point where the only "special" difference between my bike and the "special" bikes is marketing.


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## DIRT BOY

hhuffman said:


> terry b said:
> 
> 
> 
> I grew up in a time when Motobecane meant something, most of today's consumers didn't.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Terry brings up an excellent point. What makes a bike or bike company "mean something"? After all, parts are all either shimano or Campy and a frame is just a cluster of tubes. Granted, some are designed and manufactured better than others, but it gets to a point where it's all marketing that seperates those that are special and those that aren't.
> 
> I believe that the Motobecane I am riding is at that point where the only "special" difference between my bike and the "special" bikes is marketing.
> 
> 
> 
> NO one ever said you where riding a bad bike. The factory that makes the Motos is excellent and it's where a lot of other frames come from. The quality in material is there. I can't say anything else because I never rode on and can't comment on the enignerring or handaling. Jusdt because a Top Notch factory made the bike, does not mean it s a good ride. I assume BD had nothing to do with the design of the frame, geo and what not. This is a re badged frame that some else's RD Team put together.
> 
> But no one ever said the quality was junk. Just a bad warranty and Mike claiming to be like TREK with his warranty. Which is HUGE stretch of the truth.
> 
> Mike should just say, Yes, there is not warranty, but we have a good Replacement/Crash pricing on them.
Click to expand...


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## terbennett

hhuffman said:


> terry b said:
> 
> 
> 
> I grew up in a time when Motobecane meant something, most of today's consumers didn't.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Terry brings up an excellent point. What makes a bike or bike company "mean something"? After all, parts are all either shimano or Campy and a frame is just a cluster of tubes. Granted, some are designed and manufactured better than others, but it gets to a point where it's all marketing that seperates those that are special and those that aren't.
> 
> I believe that the Motobecane I am riding is at that point where the only "special" difference between my bike and the "special" bikes is marketing.
> 
> 
> 
> +1. While I don't ride a Motobecane (Felts are my thing), one of my Critical Mass buddies has one in his bike collection. He is also a bike mechanic at Jax Bicycle Center- which is a Trek store. As expected, most of his bikes are Treks but he told me that he has a special place in his heart for his Motobecane. In fact, he purchased it just so he could blast on the Bikes Direct. The opposite happened. He told me that the fit of the Treks were dead on whereas the Motobecane was not. However, after a stem swap and seat adjustment, it fit him fine. The only disappointment he has is that he hadn't bought earlier. He is really amazed at how well the bike rides for the money. In fact he said that it rides and handles well for any kind of money. It's not the best, but it rides as well as anything that cost $1,000-2000 more. By the way, if anyone is concerned with fit, get fitted on a Fuji and you'll know what you'll need to be fitted on a comparable Motobecane. Same fit because they are essentially the same bikes. Fuji is a good brand so it's safe to say that Motobecane is as well. In fact with the BD owner posting here on this website, I'm betting the customer service is probably better than Fuji's.
Click to expand...


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## My Own Private Idaho

The problem I have with BD is in how the company is run. I'm sure the bikes are fine. I just remember the days when we had at least one post a week in every forum on this site touting the wonderful bike the new poster had purchased from BD, and how they could sell the components on ebay and make money if the bike didn't fit.

I'm sure Mike would argue with me, but I think it still goes on. So, if I don't get all gushy and agree with every pro-BD poster, forgive me. Usually I keep my mouth shut now. As long as the posts get moved here, and the crap stays here, who cares?

I've steered a number of people away from buying BD bikes. Does that make me a bad person?

Also, I'm more convinced than ever that a beginner needs to ride a bike before buying. I know what I need well enough now, but many don't. Buying a first bike (or first bike in a long time) over the internet is foolish.


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## bikesdirect

My Own Private Idaho said:


> The problem I have with BD is in how the company is run. I'm sure the bikes are fine. I just remember the days when we had at least one post a week in every forum on this site touting the wonderful bike the new poster had purchased from BD, and how they could sell the components on ebay and make money if the bike didn't fit.
> 
> I'm sure Mike would argue with me, but I think it still goes on. So, if I don't get all gushy and agree with every pro-BD poster, forgive me. Usually I keep my mouth shut now. As long as the posts get moved here, and the crap stays here, who cares?
> 
> I've steered a number of people away from buying BD bikes. Does that make me a bad person?
> 
> Also, I'm more convinced than ever that a beginner needs to ride a bike before buying. I know what I need well enough now, but many don't. Buying a first bike (or first bike in a long time) over the internet is foolish.



Everyone has an opinion; some are based on facts, some are just feeling.

Shill posts - there has never been a BD shill post on MTBR or bikeforums.net or anywhere else except here on RBR - once I found out about that activity by some employees that was stopped. That was about 3 or 4 years ago. That is just the facts - period. So you are incorrect in this matter. You can beleive what you want - but facts are facts.

Opinions on beginners buying online and needing test rides run the entire spectrum. Most experienced industry insiders think test rides are at best worth little and at worst are misleading. {I recall that for years the bi-x in Cambridge was one of the best and biggest shops in the USA; and they never allowed test rides as they felt they were totally misleading}. True some shops will push test rides in public and then say something completely different in private; but 10 minutes on a new bike tells even an expert very little and tells a beginner even less.

My feeling is: test rides mainly show you how well the shop setup the bike. And in the case of a beginner or new riders there is very little that can be gained by a typical test ride {which are almost always too short}. Sure i can tell a lot about a road racing bike if I ride it for 50 miles today; and then another 20 or 30 tomorrow. But the first 5 or 10 miles do not prove a lot. 

Funny thing is: most the super expensive bikes made are sold without any test ride at all. That is how custom bikes are generally distributed.

My main issue with advise to beginners is the generally bad advise to 'go craigslist' -- this is a big mistake for a beginner. Do not get me wrong - there are deals on craigslist - but also there are many really bad buys and it takes experience to know the difference. By definition a beginner will not show up prepared to check chain wear, bearings, rims, etc, etc: and used bikes have no warranty -- Plus sizing is a bigger problem issue in used bikes for a beginner. AND I WOULD NEVER BUY A CARBON FIBER BIKE THAT WAS USED -- no matter who you are {unless it was such a deal I could strip it for the parts at once}

The truth is: a begginer with a limited budget is better off buying online than almost any other alternative {by that - I mean for buyers who want try out a road bike at under $600 or a 29er at under $600 or a SS/FG at under $400 or a disc brake HT at under $400 or a CX bike under $800, etc} And an expert can get a much higher level bike online if they have a spending limit than they can normally find in a store. And of course, there is selection: almost everyone can find things online that local stores do not stock.

There are many good options these days for cyclists: buying online is one that many benefit from.


----------



## filtersweep

Test rides? Hmm..... nice concept, but that last few bikes I have purchased were built up from framesets--- and there was no bike to "test ride.' It was a leap of faith. Besides, bike fit isn't that much of a black art. 

It is like that for most high end frames. I just received a frameset through on online store in the mail today--- again-- no test ride. The frame isn't available locally, and I have never seen it in any bike shop. I will build the bike myself. I could rave and gush about the frame I bought-- and the store I bought it from. The frame arrived in perfect condition--- traveled half-way around the globe--- for only $70 in shipping. But someone might consider me to be a shill--- so no mention of the brand (Soma) or the store.





My Own Private Idaho said:


> Also, I'm more convinced than ever that a beginner needs to ride a bike before buying. I know what I need well enough now, but many don't. Buying a first bike (or first bike in a long time) over the internet is foolish.


----------



## My Own Private Idaho

filtersweep said:


> Test rides? Hmm..... nice concept, but that last few bikes I have purchased were built up from framesets--- and there was no bike to "test ride.' It was a leap of faith. Besides, bike fit isn't that much of a black art.


That's fine, once you know what you need. I'm in the process of doing the same thing right now. I'm building a Salsa Fargo from a frameset. But for a first bike? I still maintain that isn't a good idea for a beginner.


----------



## 20sMotoSpirit

DIRT BOY said:


> *This warranty does not cover:*
> 
> 
> Normal wear and tear
> Improper assembly
> Improper follow-up maintenance
> Installation of parts or accessories not originally intended for, or compatible with, the bicycle as sold
> Damage or failure due to accident, misuse, abuse, or neglect
> Labor charges for part replacement or changeover
> 
> 
> As far as a warranty issue goes. there has to be trust from both parties. For me? I dont believe in the idea of a warranty. If you can make an informed choice and know how to fix something when an issue comes up - then its not an issue.
> 
> In your post you mention the Improper assembly - I am surprised motobecane can even offer a warranty since most people usually end up doing the assembly themselves.


----------



## DIRT BOY

20sMotoSpirit said:


> As far as a warranty issue goes. there has to be trust from both parties. For me? I dont believe in the idea of a warranty. If you can make an informed choice and know how to fix something when an issue comes up - then its not an issue..


Really? Your Carbon frame fails or has issues and you will fix it yourself?


----------



## 20sMotoSpirit

DIRT BOY said:


> Really? Your Carbon frame fails or has issues and you will fix it yourself?


Don't assume I ride a carbon frame. Like I have said in other posts, 'If you cant afford to replace it - you shouldn't be riding it'.

This is what I ride.
https://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._567485841960_29905801_33448170_1635744_n.jpg


----------



## DIRT BOY

20sMotoSpirit said:


> Don't assume I ride a carbon frame. Like I have said in other posts, 'If you cant afford to replace it - you shouldn't be riding it'.
> 
> This is what I ride.
> https://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs139.snc1/5934_567485841960_29905801_33448170_1635744_n.jpg


is that aluminum? You can fix an aluminum frame? Even if it's steel, it fail/breaks, etc due to workmanship, you want to fix it?


----------



## The Green Hour

So what we have is, the original poster loves his new bike. Then we get the normal bashing of BD's business model. The warranty issue gets dragged into the discussion and it goes to hell... 

There are valid points on all ends and we could argue them to death , but the bottom line is a guy bought a bike from a company and likes it. Does it matter if he bought it from Performance, REI, BD, or some E-Bay seller? Does it have to be one of the big 3 mainstream offerings from a LBS to make it a legitiment bike?

There is one more guy on the road riding a bike and enjoying it, isn't that more important than all this other nonsense?? Can we at least let the guy enjoy his bike....


----------



## 20sMotoSpirit

No, by 'fix' I do not mean 'repair' I would like to fix the problem of my frame breaking by replacing it. At that time, I would decide if I would like to change my frame rather than just do a replacement. I do not know how to 'repair' a frame in a safe manner regardless of the material.


----------



## SystemShock

20sMotoSpirit said:


> The Only reason you would ever buy a Madone is if you were going to buy at least a 5 series bike. which all start out at 3K. The Madone 4.5 and 4.7 models are not worth the initial investment. Pay the extra money and you get the OCLV.


And yet, Trek keeps right on making Madones below the 5.

Somebody's buying 'em.
.


----------



## SystemShock

hhuffman said:


> Exactly. Someone mentioned there were Madone's and Roubaix's for less than $2k but it's a cheaper frame and much lower components.


I just thought it was odd when you said the following, when it wasn't correct:



> _I researched like hell and at first looked at the big boys, Trek Madone and Specialized Roubaix, and I couldn't even find one 2 years used for less than $2K._


Obviously, one _can_ get a Roubaix, and likely a Madone as well, for less than $2K new– and thus certainly used as well.

If it was just a sin of omission, i.e. "I meant to say _non-lower-end _Roubaixes and Madones", then hey, no prob. Glad we cleared that up.
.


----------



## SystemShock

terry b said:


> I grew up in a time when Motobecane meant something, most of today's consumers didn't.





hhuffman said:


> Terry brings up an excellent point. What makes a bike or bike company "mean something"? After all, parts are all either shimano or Campy and a frame is just a cluster of tubes. Granted, some are designed and manufactured better than others, but it gets to a point where it's all marketing that seperates those that are special and those that aren't.
> 
> I believe that the Motobecane I am riding is at that point where the only "special" difference between my bike and the "special" bikes is marketing.


Your point is taken, and I think it's at least partially true... a lot of bike companies' brands don't mean any more than the ones BD peddle, and those companies' brands are defined solely by marketing, and not by how they design bikes or do business or any other factor. 

That said, it's a gross oversimplication to say that that's true of ALL bike companies. I'm sure there's plenty of people on DeRosas, Pegorettis, Merckxs, Rivendells, etc (just to name a few), that would contest your point that all bike companies/brands are 100% about marketing, rather than design, history, a consistent commitment to quality, and having a certain philosophy as a company. Those companies aren't just marketing machines, they stand for something.

BD can stand for something too... 'we get you a fairly generic bike for real cheap'. Great. But you'll understand if some ppl find that compelling and others, not so much.

And the folks at BD seem to understand the need to have brands that mean something more than that, which is why they buy up the names/brands of old bike companies that did indeed stand for something... back in the day, anyway.
.


----------



## marckap

Green Hour - Nicely written and summed up perfectly. It's all about riding


----------



## thechriswebb

marckap said:


> Green Hour - Nicely written and summed up perfectly. It's all about riding


I agree completely. Let's please please please let this guy enjoy his new bike. 


I love the sport of cycling so much, but I don't know if I've ever seen another sport that tries so hard to intimidate new people out of it.


----------



## hhuffman

thechriswebb said:


> I love the sport of cycling so much, but I don't know if I've ever seen another sport that tries so hard to intimidate new people out of it.


Your quote is dead on, and I find it really only applies to road cycling. I mountain, bmx and dirt jump and in every one of these disciplines people are all about bringing new people into the fold and teaching them new stuff, whereas I have found that road riders pride themselves on "keep up, be just like me, or get the hell out of my way". 

When I was at my fastest I was on my tri bike and even though I could blow most roadies I was riding away they gave me the stink eye just because I had aero bars. Like I was going to go completely out of control and kill the whole peleton. Lance rides a TT bike also. 

I thought roadies were supposed to be the sophistocated ones.


----------



## The Green Hour

hhuffman said:


> Your quote is dead on, and I find it really only applies to road cycling. I mountain, bmx and dirt jump and in every one of these disciplines people are all about bringing new people into the fold and teaching them new stuff, whereas I have found that road riders pride themselves on "keep up, be just like me, or get the hell out of my way".
> 
> When I was at my fastest I was on my tri bike and even though I could blow most roadies I was riding away they gave me the stink eye just because I had aero bars. Like I was going to go completely out of control and kill the whole peleton. Lance rides a TT bike also.
> 
> I thought roadies were supposed to be the sophistocated ones.


Yes hhuffman, it can be a fickled sport. Don't let any of this bother you. Enjoy your new bike. 

The usual bashers, and one in particular, have a bone to pick with BD for some reason. Ironically this person (IIRC) bought one of those China E-Bay frames and still has the nerve to trash your thread. It's kinda' like calling the kettle black.


----------



## keesue

I just received my Dawes SST. It arrived without damage, was packed well and I put it together with no issues. I tightened up the driveline, adjusted the brakes, trued up the wheels and rode it. It rides straight and true. It will be my commuter to the athletic club. 

There was one issue: I had to let out the Chinese air and fill the tires with good old USA air. So there.


----------



## hgaskins

hhuffman

I'm sorry that your post which was no doubt written honestly, and with honest intentions had the effect of pulling all the Trolls out from under their bridge. Outspoken fan-boys always assume that anyone who doesn't have or want what they want or have is wrong. Perhaps their motives are the result of some misguided and rather condescending notion that they are in fact helping those who are less knowledgeable make better decisions on their purchases. It probably wouldn't do any good to remind them that the damaged frame that some are referring too was an issue in another thread, or that in this thread it's off topic because they wouldn't get it anyway.

Oh by the way. I have a BD bike and I'm quite happy with it and I'm even considering another. I took my BD bike to a well known local bike shop for a quick tuneup (their prices are too good to mess with it myself), and instead of trying to make me feel bad about my purchase they complimented it. I suppose they could have been playing nice because I've purchased a lot of other things there, but at least I walked out of the door with a smile they didn't feel a need to wipe from my face. Enjoy!


----------



## SystemShock

Not to crap on BD (I can take 'em or leave 'em, and the head honcho guy who posts is always pleasant), but... from reading the thread, my spidey-sense tells me that at least a few of the vehemently pro-BDers are probably employees. 

Guys, you don't have to try so hard. BD will do just fine without the cheerleading. And I think overzealousness has gotten your rep tarnished in the past... just sayin'.
.


----------



## hgaskins

> Guys, you don't have to try so hard. BD will do just fine without the cheerleading. And I think overzealousness has gotten your rep tarnished in the past... just sayin'.


\

I'm not an employee and neither am I a cheerleader. I've answered a couple of questions posted by others honestly based on the actual experience of owning the product. Then along comes the inevitable forum troll with the explicit purpose of making an arse of themselves. They go to great lengths to belittle a product they know nothing about except from what they read in another post. These individuals don't own the product and probably never will and that's the experience that should guide their responses. Not this "BD is bad because." That's the response of a 10 year old warding off cooties because a pretty girl showed interest in them.

This has the effect of confusing someone who comes looking for honest responses from previous owners before they make a purchase. Their intent was not to be made to feel stupid because they didn't want a Trek bike or one from some other well known bike assembling company. That's right assembling. Few of the other well known bike manufacturers actually make their own parts. They, just like BD buy them and then assemble them. Here is an interesting Wikipedia post listing some of the companies that purchases frames from Kinesis and you will note that it includes all the BD bikes as well as Trek and Kona. So at least some of the parts on some Trek bikes are manufactured in the same plant as those of Motobecane. I never hear the trolls mention that.

Small edit: Here's the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_Industry


----------



## covenant

I'm still waiting on pics of the OP's bike......


----------



## SystemShock

hgaskins said:


> I'm not an employee and neither am I a cheerleader. I've answered a couple of questions posted by others honestly based on the actual experience of owning the product. Then along comes the inevitable forum troll with the explicit purpose of making an arse of themselves. They go to great lengths to belittle a product they know nothing about except from what they read in another post. These individuals don't own the product and probably never will and that's the experience that should guide their responses. Not this "BD is bad because." That's the response of a 10 year old warding off cooties because a pretty girl showed interest in them.
> 
> This has the effect of confusing someone who comes looking for honest responses from previous owners before they make a purchase. Their intent was not to be made to feel stupid because they didn't want a Trek bike or one from some other well known bike assembling company. That's right assembling. Few of the other well known bike manufacturers actually make their own parts. They, just like BD buy them and then assemble them. Here is an interesting Wikipedia post listing some of the companies that purchases frames from Kinesis and you will note that it includes all the BD bikes as well as Trek and Kona. So at least some of the parts on some Trek bikes are manufactured in the same plant as those of Motobecane. I never hear the trolls mention that.
> 
> Small edit: Here's the link.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_Industry


This might be an example of 'trying too hard'.  

I don't know if you personally are a BikesDirect employee or not. But, as others have noted, there is a history of BD employees making shill posts on behalf of BD. Whether this practice has truly been discontinued by now, no one really knows... we only have the insistence of the head honcho BD guy that it has.

What sets off the alarm bells is when you call anyone who doesn't agree that BD is the best thing since sliced bread a 'troll'. I've read the entire thread, and I don't see anyone trolling, really. Just ppl bringing up facts (like me, on what the real Madone and Roubaix pricing is... not that I automatically think those are better bikes), or noting that it may be hard to know if the bike fits you if its an online purchase, and some others who don't dig BD in part because of its' past track record on these forums. 

If someone was just posting, "BD suuuuuuuuuuucks!", then yeah, that'd be trolling. But no one has. 

Far as your point that a lot of the big companies all purchase parts and frames at the same place that BD does... yes, I have no doubt that's true. But by the same token, some companies do source their bikes elsewhere... Trek, of course, makes its OCLV frames here in the USA.

Do I think Treks are automatically better? Maybe at the OCLV level. Hard to say, as I don't own one, and am more a steel or Ti guy anyway.

Good luck to you, and pls grok the fact that someone can dislike or be neutral towards BD (pretty much my stance), without 'trolling'. 
.


----------



## hgaskins

> If someone was just posting, "BD suuuuuuuuuuucks!", then yeah, that'd be trolling. But no one has.


I have to disagree with that sentiment. Trolling can be anyone who enters a thread to voice an unwanted opinion that is intentionally vitriolic and antithetical to the OPs original post. There several of those types posts made by those could clearly designate as trolls albeit unintentionally so. They could have have simply stated that they thought the original post sounded a little to sugary to be genuine. That would have been a fair statement from their view point, bu that's not what happened. A point observed in post by w4ta.



> Given the few negatively tinged responses to the OP... and to just about any BD post... one can understand a 100% satisfied customer's desire to enlighten and offer confidence to those who are either unnerved or immediately turned off by the negativity.


This is from your post.



> *BD can stand for something too... 'we get you a fairly generic bike for real cheap'. Great. *But you'll understand if some ppl find that compelling and others, not so much.
> 
> And the folks at *BD seem to understand the need to have brands that mean something more than that, which is why they buy up the names/brands of old bike companies that did indeed stand for something... back in the day*, anyway.
> .


An attempt at a gentle put-down but clearly a put-down. What makes a generic bike in your eyes is a real winner in someone else s. A bike is nothing more than the sum of its parts of and none of the bike companies make all their parts. In the end BD bikes largely differ by their frames and if they're decent then so are their bikes.

A post by Stevesbike.



> What about the thread below this - one of your frames broke at what appears to be a badly designed dropout? Or do you simply blame all such breaks on your customers - an easy way to say there's no failures with your frames. And if there's no failures ever why do you exclude your carbon frames from your warranty??


Now the OP's post is forgotten in favor of rehashing a debate that was dragged in from another thread regarding a broken frame. What's that got to do with this thread?

From a post by "My Own Private Idaho."



> I've steered a number of people away from buying BD bikes. Does that make me a bad person?


That depends on if he's relaying actual experience about BD bikes before steering people away don't you think? If he's actually owned a particular bike in discussion (not ridden) then that's genuine empirical knowledge and worthy of transmission, but if he hasn't then it's basically "*BD suuuuuuuuuuucks!*" Wouldn't you agree?

There were of course others who recognized that the thread was being hijacked by trolls although he didn't use the word troll. His view echoes my sentiments exactly. 

From The Green Hour.



> There are valid points on all ends and we could argue them to death , but the bottom line is a guy bought a bike from a company and likes it. Does it matter if he bought it from Performance, REI, BD, or some E-Bay seller? Does it have to be one of the big 3 mainstream offerings from a LBS to make it a legitiment bike?
> 
> There is one more guy on the road riding a bike and enjoying it, isn't that more important than all this other nonsense??



then there was this post voicing agreement by



> I agree completely. Let's please please please let this guy enjoy his new bike.
> 
> 
> I love the sport of cycling so much, *but I don't know if I've ever seen another sport that tries so hard to intimidate new people out of it*.


The biggest problem that I have is this assumption that none of us who've purchased BD bikes are wise enough to make good decisions on our own just because they're not the ones that you or one of the other detractors would've made. 

When someone comes to this forum looking for advice on a $600 to $900 BD bike don't you think that those who own a $600 to $900 BD bike are better qualified to answer that question than someone who's never spent any time with one? No need to worry about those who've purchased much more expensive BD bikes because they are obviously quite bike knowledgeable and have thought their purchases out clearly and succinctly. 



> Good luck to you, and pls grok the fact that someone can dislike or be neutral towards BD (pretty much my stance), without 'trolling'.


One last point If everyone who posts a positive statement about BD bikes stand to be a possible BD employee, then doesn't also reason that those who post negative retorts could be from their competitors? Paranoia, where does it all end?

No problem as long as you can "grok the fact" that someone should request an opinion on a subject before giving one; and that doing so after a person has already made a purchase is just "raining on their parade" for no good reason except perhaps to make them feel bad.

Like I said Trolls, and if you should find yourself sitting under a bridge out of the rain, please let the Billy Goats cross.


----------



## SystemShock

*Tsk... zealots just won't listen, even when you're trying to help*

I'm sorry HG, but from reading your over-zealous novella (reprinted below... when does it come out in paperback?), I can only assume that you are either

a) the king of all BikesDirect fanbois, or

b) an actual BikesDirect employee.


In either case, by arguing like a zealot, you are indeed 'trying too hard', and are actually turning more people OFF to BikesDirect than on.

But hey, don't take my advice, shoot your company in the foot. :frown2:

And yes, the bikes are a tad bit 'generic'. The folks running BD know this, which is why they've bought up some old brand names that have history. But that's no substitute for interesting design. I've tried in other posts in other threads to help BD with that, but I guess that advice falls on deaf ears too, since I'm not a raving cheerleader for y'all.

Good luck with the 'tude, it won't get you far. Tsk.
.



hgaskins said:


> I have to disagree with that sentiment. Trolling can be anyone who enters a thread to voice an unwanted opinion that is intentionally vitriolic and antithetical to the OPs original post. There several of those types posts made by those could clearly designate as trolls albeit unintentionally so. They could have have simply stated that they thought the original post sounded a little to sugary to be genuine. That would have been a fair statement from their view point, bu that's not what happened. A point observed in post by w4ta.
> 
> 
> 
> This is from your post.
> 
> 
> 
> An attempt at a gentle put-down but clearly a put-down. What makes a generic bike in your eyes is a real winner in someone else s. A bike is nothing more than the sum of its parts of and none of the bike companies make all their parts. In the end BD bikes largely differ by their frames and if they're decent then so are their bikes.
> 
> A post by Stevesbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Now the OP's post is forgotten in favor of rehashing a debate that was dragged in from another thread regarding a broken frame. What's that got to do with this thread?
> 
> From a post by "My Own Private Idaho."
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on if he's relaying actual experience about BD bikes before steering people away don't you think? If he's actually owned a particular bike in discussion (not ridden) then that's genuine empirical knowledge and worthy of transmission, but if he hasn't then it's basically "*BD suuuuuuuuuuucks!*" Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> There were of course others who recognized that the thread was being hijacked by trolls although he didn't use the word troll. His view echoes my sentiments exactly.
> 
> From The Green Hour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then there was this post voicing agreement by
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest problem that I have is this assumption that none of us who've purchased BD bikes are wise enough to make good decisions on our own just because they're not the ones that you or one of the other detractors would've made.
> 
> When someone comes to this forum looking for advice on a $600 to $900 BD bike don't you think that those who own a $600 to $900 BD bike are better qualified to answer that question than someone who's never spent any time with one? No need to worry about those who've purchased much more expensive BD bikes because they are obviously quite bike knowledgeable and have thought their purchases out clearly and succinctly.
> 
> 
> 
> One last point If everyone who posts a positive statement about BD bikes stand to be a possible BD employee, then doesn't also reason that those who post negative retorts could be from their competitors? Paranoia, where does it all end?
> 
> No problem as long as you can "grok the fact" that someone should request an opinion on a subject before giving one; and that doing so after a person has already made a purchase is just "raining on their parade" for no good reason except perhaps to make them feel bad.
> 
> Like I said Trolls, and if you should find yourself sitting under a bridge out of the rain, please let the Billy Goats cross.


----------



## hgaskins

> I'm sorry HG, but from reading your over-zealous novella (reprinted below... when does it come out in paperback?), I can only assume that you are either


I actually wished you were sorry and there is nothing over zealous about my posts. Certainly not to the scale of the especially overly zealous anti BD posts. I say especially over-zealous because they were unsolicited, unwanted, and unappreciated by the OP and several others. I wasn't defending BD I was defending the rights of individuals to get an honest reply instead of this constant BD is bad because we don't like their advertising or we don't like their bikes for no particular reason. You don't know if their bikes are generic because you've probably never ridden one. 



> In either case, by arguing like a zealot, you are indeed 'trying too hard', and are actually turning more people OFF to BikesDirect than on.



Utter meaningless nonsense! If you read back in this thread you will see that you were among those who were actually turning people off.



> Good luck with the 'tude, it won't get you far. Tsk.
> .



Wrong again! You have no idea just how far my "tude" as you call it has gotten me.

I can easily prove that I'm not a BD employee can you prove that you're not a Trek troll or that one of the other trolls are not?

Here is my forum's address.

www.dvdhounds.com

You can also find me me at www.afterdawn.com

Both are under the nick Sophocles. I've been through this same debate many times before only with computers. Unfortunately for Dell and HP freaks it was easy to prove that a good Home built is better than a store bought any day, but you can't benchmark a bike and post it online.

Cheers!


----------



## SystemShock

Wow. Talk about stickin' your fingers in your ears and shoutin' "lalalalalala". That entire post was "I know you are, but what am I." ut:

And he calls other ppl trolls. :lol:
.


----------



## hgaskins

> Wow. Talk about stickin' your fingers in your ears and shoutin' "lalalalalala". That entire post was "I know you are, but what am I."
> 
> 
> .


So now it's reverse put-downs as though they somehow elevate your standing. Your representation of my last post is so far out of context that it is safe to call it an intentional misrepresentation. It was also like all of the other posts in this discussion meant to be a defense of individuals to have an opinion without being belittled for it.




> And he calls other ppl trolls.


Definition:


> a troll is someone who posts controversial, *inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages* in an online community


That definition clearly supports my original and ongoing contention that those who came here to voice opinions on BD made themselves trolls whether intentional or not. 

When the OP posted his joy of owning his bike plenty of people chimed in and made him feel good about his purchase. Did you ever consider that sometimes that's the purpose of those types of posts?

It's not up to others to come along and use his post as a means to further their private agendas against BD while at the same time making the OP feel bad for being happy. If they have issues with BD let them start their own thread and then honestly state what actually happened to them. I wouldn't take issue with that but I do take issue with this redirecting ones thread for self-serving senseless vitriol.


----------



## The Green Hour

I am not an employee of BD either, furthest from it. I have no great love or dislike for the company other than it is a good place to buy a bike on a budget. I own a couple of their cheap fixed gears. I could have went to the LBS and spend 2x as much on pretty much an identical product. Why, to support another Kinesis made frame that another company will be making 2x the profit on??? 

I have a custom made steel bike and the builder admitted that BD is a decent company that delivers a good product to a CERTAIN type of customer. I also like REI bikes. Dollar for dollar with discounts and buyer points you can get a good bike at a good price there as well.

What I find funny is when the big 3 do the same thing as BD, REI, Performance, etc, it is somehow OK. Many of the big mainstream companies have Chinese made frames that give the impression that they are still made in the USA. My cheap Gary Fisher mountain bike.....made in China, but the dealer will never disclose this. Specialized, carbon bikes made in some far east factory with over inflated prices tagged on them still give the general buying public they are getting an American made product. IMO this deception is worse than the BD, REI, Performance business model ever thought of being. Rant over...

Lighten up a little on the people that made a choice that happen to fit their needs....


----------



## DIRT BOY

hgaskins said:


> \
> e other well known bike assembling company. That's right assembling. Few of the other well known bike manufacturers actually make their own parts. They, just like BD buy them and then assemble them. Here is an interesting Wikipedia post listing some of the companies that purchases frames from Kinesis and you will note that it includes all the BD bikes as well as Trek and Kona. So at least some of the parts on some Trek bikes are manufactured in the same plant as those of Motobecane. I never hear the trolls mention that.
> 
> Small edit: Here's the link.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_Industry


Most educated consumer know this. Same with CF frames. A few Major Factoires in Taiwan and Mainland China make the CF frames for the BIG BOYS.

Now FACT, just because it comes form the same factory, does NOT mean it has the same performance, RD, QC, or paint.

You can get several grades of frames from these guys.

Yes, say TREK gets their LOWER frames form Kinesis. Fine, but the quality will most likely be a bit better from what I have seen.

I have purchased 2 bikes/frames form BD and overall I am happy. Both are steel frames and were goo to fine quality overall with minor issues.

Cheap parts compared to say TREK or Spec with minr QC issues on one, but that's what separates them form BD. 

Its the marketing here by BD and shills that gets everyone going.

What BD does is great in getting people to ride who are hesitant to spend a lot of money on a bike.
On BD higher end bike, you are getting the SAME components as the big boys, a great to VERY good frame for half the price.


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## hgaskins

> Now FACT, just because it comes form the same factory, does NOT mean it has the same performance, RD, QC, or paint.


More often than not the main differences between frames coming out of a particular factory are more cosmetic than function. There's a reason for this. Most manufacturers of parts engineer their designs to have multiple uses so that they can limit the number of part types being made which keeps costs down. I'm betting that many frames of a specific material type born in a specific factory are made from the exact same tubes or parts taken off the very same lines with the only real differences being cosmetics. 

Sometimes we pay a lot extra for a cool look and a well known name brand, and sometimes we get screwed trying to get more for less. The trick is to do a little a research and then go with your gut. When people come to this forum looking for answers they often get two contrasting views that result more in confusion than resolution. I don't approve of some of BD's marketing methods either, but it really doesn't affect my ability to make a good decision. I could care less that BD's buying up onetime well known names and using them to market their bikes. That's their right and if they didn't do it someone else would've.


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## DIRT BOY

hgaskins said:


> More often than not the main differences between frames coming out of a particular factory are more cosmetic than function. There's a reason for this. Most manufacturers of parts engineer their designs to have multiple uses so that they can limit the number of part types being made which keeps costs down. I'm betting that many frames of a specific material type born in a specific factory are made from the exact same tubes or parts taken off the very same lines with the only real differences being cosmetics.
> 
> Sometimes we pay a lot extra for a cool look and a well known name brand, and sometimes we get screwed trying to get more for less. The trick is to do a little a research and then go with your gut. When people come to this forum looking for answers they often get two contrasting views that result more in confusion than resolution. I don't approve of some of BD's marketing methods either, but it really doesn't affect my ability to make a good decision. I could care less that BD's buying up onetime well known names and using them to market their bikes. That's their right and if they didn't do it someone else would've.


Sure I agree to a point. If you consider paint quality and durability issues fine ok.

Now, yes all the bike are welded the same and what not. Some will pay more for smoother welds etc, but its all the same tubing unless its proprietary.

Now, on CF frames, quality of the carbon prepreg is a HUGE factor, along with qaulity of resins, etc.

When the big boys frames are done a their agreement with said factory is done for that run, frames can and our produced for generic sales. You will get the same R&D most the time or with small tweaks to sell these frames cheap. Now do all small tweaks matter? Yes and No.

Again, nothing wrong with BD bikes. Some frames are very high quality for a great price and some are just fine with a great price. No biggie. 

As for using old Names.. well I am torn with that. BUT most people buying these bikes don't know or careless about the frames names.

BUT BD bikes can stand on thier own and they SHOULD do thier own brand and line.


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## doctorspokes

*Bottom Line*

Despite what all the shill accusers and naysayers say...what they fail to realize is that most of the time, a forum like this is the only way for fellow bikers to get any info on BD bikes. Unlike with Trek and Specialized, where you can just ask the guy riding next to you how he likes his Madone or Roubaix, you can’t with Motobecane. Those big name bikes are all over and it’s easy to get an opinion. In this case you go online to find someone who has some personal experience and hopefully get an honest answer. The magazine reviews of BD do not come around that often and therefore people come here for information. Then, if they decide to take the plunge, and purchase, they feel compelled to return the favor and give the details of their purchase. That is why I posted my experience about a month ago ( still satisfied - but that is off topic). 

Bottom line - my advice is to let people express their experience and don't berate them for doing so. And as an aside, if you don't have any experience, lighten up and say so.


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## Bikenator

doctorspokes said:


> Despite what all the shill accusers and naysayers say...what they fail to realize is that most of the time, a forum like this is the only way for fellow bikers to get any info on BD bikes. Unlike with Trek and Specialized, where you can just ask the guy riding next to you how he likes his Madone or Roubaix, you can’t with Motobecane.


Actually, last weekend I ran into *two guys* with Motos, one Al, one carbon (they didn't know each other) at the same spot! I'd never seen a Moto in person before (not counting the 1970's mopeds) so imagine the odds. Both said they loved their bikes and their experiences with BD. Unfortunately, I was with someone else and didn't have all day to interrogate them about the details. The carbon, the exact model I've been looking at, is quite nice and hardly looks "generic" IMO:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/images/ims7900_gallery/

Maybe I have no taste, but that's a sweet looking bike IMO.

I am considering a BD bike at some point in the future. So far, the only persuasive argument I have heard is warranty, or the lack thereof. Obviously an issue with carbon. So do we have significant (as opposed to anecdotal) forum reports about the frames cracking easy, or easier than the big boy brands?

Maybe it is too good to be true, but tell me how a sub-16lbs bike with full Dura Ace 7900 - for $2000, no less - is any slower than a Trek Madone? Seems to me this is a better bike than about 98% of cyclists own.

Aside from the warranty, what is the difference? Is Trek really worth an extra $2K because it says "Trek" and Lance rides it? Hell, for the extra dough, can't one just buy another frame if the Moto breaks?

Man, I should have gotten that guy with the Moto Spirit's phone number. At least I know he isn't a shill!


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## stevesbike

the immortal frame is OK - at 2.7 pounds it's pretty heavy. There's lots of good deals around. Rossetti is offering a sub-15 pound bike with SRAM Red and Reynolds carbon wheels for $3 (the wheelset alone is worth $1300).


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## Pilsner

*I have a BD bike and am very happy*

I don't get to ride as often as I would like (kids aged 3 and 6 months) and there are a couple of sizing and setup issues that probably wouldn't have happened if I had bought from the LBS, but I would easily have spent 600 - 700 more at the LBS too and I have since resolved the problems myself without too much hassle ( new stem, new saddle and a visit to the LBS to tune the derailers for 50$). If I were a more competitive rider maybe I would know the difference but I hadn't bought a road bike in almost 20 years and I couldn't find any steel frames built up in my size at the LBS so sizing was an issue everywhere, including BD. I bought a Mercier Serpens 853 with Ultegra 6600 groupset and I love it, only wish I could get on it more every week. 

I advise anyone thinking of BD to check out a Fuji in the sizes they are considering, as other brands in similar seatpost sizes are in reality quite different. I am 6'3" and in retrospect I would probably have gotten a 64cm frame instead of a 61. But otherwise I like the bike and the last time I bought aM MTB it was undersized as well, so there may be something with my own way of looking at new bikes.... But I am very pleased with my Mercier and have advised two friends to buy from them as well and they are also very happy.


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## mwengel62

I've been in the market for an entry level road bike for a few months now. The Diamondback Wildwood comfort bike I've been riding for the past few years has been ok for an occasional 15 mile ride and commutes to work but I'm ready to do some more aggressive riding and perhaps a century next year. I have a limited budget ($500 or less). I've shopped all of the LBS's in my area watched for used bikes on eBay and considered various models from Bikes Direct. After reading several posts in this forum and others I've decided the best value would be to buy from Bikes Direct. I have contacted them on a few occasions with pre-sales questions via email, these forums and their web site. Each time they have been helpful and responded within a day. I'm planning to make the purchase in early December and will post a review of the experience and pics video of the assembly.


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## hgaskins

> the immortal frame is OK - at 2.7 pounds it's pretty heavy. There's lots of good deals around. Rossetti is offering a sub-15 pound bike with SRAM Red and Reynolds carbon wheels for $3 (the wheelset alone is worth $1300).


There are some really nice bikes out there with state of the art technology built in to them, but for most of us they're just waste of money. Unless one is into serious competitive racing a sub-15lb bike is just a "figment of their exaggeration. There's been lots of studies done on bike weight and performance versus ride and they aren't always synonymous with each other. Here's a link to an interesting and nicely researched essay on the subject of weight compared to performance and ride quality.

A here's a quote from the essay, the link to it will be below



> The September 2003 Bicycling Magazine has a chart that makes it easy to quantify the performance gains from light weight. James C. Martin, Ph.D., assistant professor in the department of exercise and sport science at the University of Utah provided some interesting calculations that make the cost of weight very clear.
> 
> He posited a 5 kilometer, 7% grade. That's a good, stiff climb. The legendary Stelvio climb averages 7.5%. He further assumed a rider who can kick out 250 watts. A 160 pound rider will take 19 minutes and 21 seconds to get up the hill. Every 5 pounds added make the trip up the hill take 30 seconds longer.
> 
> That means each added pound adds 6 seconds to the time it takes to get up this hill. That is only 6 seconds on a stiff, 20 minute climb.


If I was to make an expensive purchase I would to with titanium because weight is not the only factor that I would consider, but then neither would I ignore it.

Here's the link.

http://www.smartcycles.com/bike_weight.htm


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## heytoyotaguy

I have a bd purchased bike and ive put about 2kmiles on it, and am very happy with it. I found cervelos, specialized, giant, trek, and connondale bikes with the same component set up as mine (ultegra sl -shifters derailurs, fsa crank seatpost, ritchey stem handle bars, tek-tro brakes shimano whr-500 wheels) for 2,000-1,500. I paid $850. I am also happy to mention that road bike action magazine has reviewed the motobecane imortal force and the le champ bikes available at bd and praized the bikes on their handeling and merrits. so If there is any one outhere whom is contemplating buyng a windsor or a motobecane or a dawes, have no concern they are quality bikes. happy riding.


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## Bikenator

No offense, but I'd love to see a comment like this from a guy with 2,000 posts, instead of the usual, under 10.

Plus, you can endorse three separate BD models? You purchased one bike from BD but are able attest to all three, Windsor, Motobecane and Dawes?  



heytoyotaguy said:


> I have a bd purchased bike and ive put about 2kmiles on it, and am very happy with it. I found cervelos, specialized, giant, trek, and connondale bikes with the same component set up as mine (ultegra sl -shifters derailurs, fsa crank seatpost, ritchey stem handle bars, tek-tro brakes shimano whr-500 wheels) for 2,000-1,500. I paid $850. I am also happy to mention that road bike action magazine has reviewed the motobecane imortal force and the le champ bikes available at bd and praized the bikes on their handeling and merrits. so If there is any one outhere whom is contemplating buyng a windsor or a motobecane or a dawes, have no concern they are quality bikes. happy riding.


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## Bikenator

Not sure if 2 lbs is worth an extra $1K, wheelset notwithstanding. $2K for a 15.75lbs bike is a great deal. I am 190lbs+ and take craps bigger than 2 lbs. :lol: 

The question is, the warranty. And, after looking at their sizing (3cm increments), fit.



stevesbike said:


> the immortal frame is OK - at 2.7 pounds it's pretty heavy. There's lots of good deals around. Rossetti is offering a sub-15 pound bike with SRAM Red and Reynolds carbon wheels for $3 (the wheelset alone is worth $1300).


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## Bikenator

I agree with you in part, especially since I weigh 190. But another aspect of carbon is shock absorbency. Ti is nice, but some people don't like its stiffness or absorbency. As someone with constant contact point issues (Ibuprofen is my friend), I'd love to ride a big shock absorber, that also happens to be light.

There is also the issue of inertia. Racers never stop. Road cyclists do, and thus are regularly overcoming inertia (at stoplights, etc). Constantly getting a bike to speed from a stop is different than keeping an already-rolling bike going. This also brings up the issue of rotational weight of rims and tires.

I do agree that weight is overrated and the most important upgrade is the engine (anyone have some 19-year-old legs for sale?). I have a buddy who is a natural athlete (4:2X mile in HS) whose first road bike was a big ugly yellow steel job from the late 70's. He was in some race about 8 years back, looking Fred-like, jamming up some hill alongside weight weenies on carbon, who couldn't understand how he was keeping up with them.  

I'll likely never compete with most serious riders, regardless of my bike. I'm not a natural athlete, I'm in my 40's, and I don't have the drive or dedication. Frankly, I doubt my body would hold up to much over 150MPW. And I don't want the classic cyclist body anyway (just the legs). But then again, I look better than most of those concave-chested, noodle-armed guys with my shirt off, and would embarrass most of them in the weightroom. :lol: 



hgaskins said:


> There are some really nice bikes out there with state of the art technology built in to them, but for most of us they're just waste of money. Unless one is into serious competitive racing a sub-15lb bike is just a "figment of their exaggeration. There's been lots of studies done on bike weight and performance versus ride and they aren't always synonymous with each other. Here's a link to an interesting and nicely researched essay on the subject of weight compared to performance and ride quality.
> 
> A here's a quote from the essay, the link to it will be below
> 
> 
> 
> If I was to make an expensive purchase I would to with titanium because weight is not the only factor that I would consider, but then neither would I ignore it.
> 
> Here's the link.
> 
> http://www.smartcycles.com/bike_weight.htm


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## The Green Hour

Bikenator said:


> I agree with you in part, especially since I weigh 190. But another aspect of carbon is shock absorbency. Ti is nice, but some people don't like its stiffness or absorbency. As someone with constant contact point issues (Ibuprofen is my friend), I'd love to ride a big shock absorber, that also happens to be light.
> 
> There is also the issue of inertia. Racers never stop. Road cyclists do, and thus are regularly overcoming inertia (at stoplights, etc). Constantly getting a bike to speed from a stop is different than keeping an already-rolling bike going. This also brings up the issue of rotational weight of rims and tires.
> 
> I do agree that weight is overrated and the most important upgrade is the engine (anyone have some 19-year-old legs for sale?). I have a buddy who is a natural athlete (4:2X mile in HS) whose first road bike was a big ugly yellow steel job from the late 70's. He was in some race about 8 years back, looking Fred-like, jamming up some hill alongside weight weenies on carbon, who couldn't understand how he was keeping up with them.
> 
> I'll likely never compete with most serious riders, regardless of my bike. I'm not a natural athlete, I'm in my 40's, and I don't have the drive or dedication. Frankly, I doubt my body would hold up to much over 150MPW. And I don't want the classic cyclist body anyway (just the legs). But then again, I look better than most of those concave-chested, noodle-armed guys with my shirt off, and would embarrass most of them in the weightroom. :lol:



The shock absorbency thing can be offset more effectively by adjusting tire pressures or switching your tires to 25's if your running 23's. The weight thing becomes very small when you figure the total bike and rider weight. A 1 or 2 pound difference in "total" weight is insignificant.

I rode 2 different LOOK bikes over the last 10 years or so, and can't say they were that much difference from the nice steel bike I had before them. I don't dislike any current frame material. If built and designed properly, any of them will ride nice.


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## Bikenator

The Green Hour said:


> The shock absorbency thing can be offset more effectively by adjusting tire pressures or switching your tires to 25's if your running 23's. The weight thing becomes very small when you figure the total bike and rider weight. A 1 or 2 pound difference in "total" weight is insignificant..


My point about the shock absorbency wasn't about the weight of the carbon, it's about the material itself absorbing shock and vibration. Not having ridden carbon, I can't vouch for this, just what other people claim.

And I ride 26" tires. Lower the tire pressure and you increase the patch and resistance, and you don't roll as well. I'd be really comfortable at 45psi over 125psi, but I wouldn't be riding 18MPH. If it was just about comfort, I'd ride a beach cruiser around.  It's all a tradeoff.


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## sometimerider

Bikenator said:


> No offense, but I'd love to see a comment like this from a guy with 2,000 posts, instead of the usual, under 10.


How about from someone with 700 posts?

I have an MB Sprint, 2 years old, over 6K miles on it. I'm very happy with it. The only components I changed were the cassette, tires (only after they had worn out), brake pads (the ones it came with were ugly hard), and pedals.

I would definitely buy from BD again, if they had a model matching my desires.

The trouble with anyone advocating for the bike they own is that they may not have enough experience to know how similar bikes perform. That certainly fits in my case.


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## Guest

I too have a Moto Sprint almost 3 years old. I don't and still don't have the money for anything else. Have about 3000m. on it and was laid up all of 2009 with foot surgery and all the thing done was collect dust. Zero miles for 09. I too do not have a vast, rich past when it comes to owning bikes. I have a few and they are all steel. For me, it boils down to money, and I don't make a lot of it. My problem. I have heard also that carbon rides smoother and sucks up the jolts better. So when and if that time comes around and my prayer is for 2011, I will be looking at Moto "Immortal Spirit" or Kest. RT800. The last being a bigger buck jump for me. We'll keep track of their site and see what can be had and for how much come 2011. Forgot, Yes, I like the bike and would do it again.


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## The Green Hour

Bikenator said:


> My point about the shock absorbency wasn't about the weight of the carbon, it's about the material itself absorbing shock and vibration. Not having ridden carbon, I can't vouch for this, just what other people claim.
> 
> And I ride 26" tires. Lower the tire pressure and you increase the patch and resistance, and you don't roll as well. I'd be really comfortable at 45psi over 125psi, but I wouldn't be riding 18MPH. If it was just about comfort, I'd ride a beach cruiser around.  It's all a tradeoff.


Carbon can dampen road buzz. That was the main difference between the steel and the LOOK. It all depends on your interpretation of ride quality. The LOOKs always had good ride characteristics. I have no experience on any of the new wave of E-Bay carbon frames, but if I were to get a new carbon bike it would be from someone like LOOK or Calfee. If I had the money, a Crumpton would be it. They are absolutely gorgeous and well made.

Changing to a 25 from a 23 tire does not hamper performance, and actually may enhance it depending on who's argument you listen to. I ride small frames which are inherently sturdy, so weight differences between materials were always miniscule and not noticed. 

My recent bike is custom steel because I wanted a strong and durable frame and modern steel delivers with no realistic disadvantages. I like the way a well designed steel framed bike rides, nothing against carbon, just my desire at this time.


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## keesue

doctorspokes said:


> Bottom line - my advice is to let people express their experience and don't berate them for doing so.


Excellent advice, sir. 

It is really tough to see new posters get kicked in the teeth for posting their positive experience regarding their BD bike purchase. I'm certain they had no idea of the loaded gun they pointed to their head with their post. Bad form, really. 

Let them enjoy their bikes! :thumbsup:


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## covenant

keesue said:


> Excellent advice, sir.
> 
> It is really tough to see new posters get kicked in the teeth for posting their positive experience regarding their BD bike purchase. I'm certain they had no idea of the loaded gun they pointed to their head with their post.


Actually most know exactly what's going on. Hence the preamble in the OPs post about not being shill and the reference to Mike's rebuttals. :thumbsup:


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## DarkRyder

hhuffman said:


> First, I am not a shill, nor in any way related to Bikesdirect





hhuffman said:


> I wrote it only to counteract the negativity towards BD





bikesdirect said:


> I can tell by your posts what your agenda is.





hhuffman said:


> I can’t believe how people can’t let this company have their cake and eat it too.





hhuffman said:


> What makes a bike or bike company "mean something"?





bikesdirect said:


> Shill posts - there has never been a BD shill post except here on RBR - once I found out about that activity by some employees that was stopped.





bikesdirect said:


> Most experienced industry insiders think test rides are at best worth little and at worst are misleading.





bikesdirect said:


> My main issue with advise to beginners is the generally bad advise to 'go craigslist' -- this is a big mistake for a beginner.





hgaskins said:


> That definition clearly supports my original and ongoing contention that those who came here to voice opinions on BD made themselves trolls whether intentional or not.





hgaskins said:


> It's not up to others to come along and use his post as a means to further their private agendas against BD while at the same time making the OP feel bad for being happy.





keesue said:


> It is really tough to see new posters get kicked in the teeth for posting their positive experience regarding their BD bike purchase.


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