# 11-speed Cassette Spacer Issue



## iridepinarello

To all who have the 11 speed cassette's, I just rec'd word that there is a "situation" with them. Better said, the cassette is missing a necessary spacer. While things clearly work without the spacer, the spacer is needed and will increase performance according to a Campy memo.

This spacer issue is in effect for Cassette's from Feb 2009 forward.

I will post more as I learn more.


----------



## C-40

*info...*

I have three chorus cassettes with a .2mm behind the second cog. This does seem odd, since that cog has a built-in spacer. It should be the correct thickness.

FWIW, my second cog measures .156-.157 inch thick without the .008 inch spacer.


----------



## tom_h

I'm getting the impression that cassettes from late-2008 had this additional thin spacer, whereas early-2009 cassettes do _not_ (my 12-27 doesn't).

There's no obvious date-code on my cassette's box.

The Campy 2009 spare parts diagrams are _not_ showing this extra 0.2mm spacer -- only 2.2mm spacers are shown (part # CS-612).


----------



## corky

any updates to this info?


----------



## iridepinarello

I;m just waiting on my spacer to come in from Campy. I'll let you know when it does.


----------



## tom_h

iridepinarello said:


> To all who have the 11 speed cassette's, ...the spacer is needed and will increase performance according to a Campy memo.
> This spacer issue is in effect for Cassette's from Feb 2009 forward...


Any chance you have a copy of this memo, and could post a scanned copy ?


----------



## zamboni

I will contact Campy tomorrow to clarify.


----------



## CLTracer

Dealers are giving out free spacers . . . Guess campy must have acknowledged something.


----------



## tom_h

C-40 said:


> I have three chorus cassettes with a .2mm behind the second cog. This does seem odd, since that cog has a built-in spacer. It should be the correct thickness. FWIW, my second cog measures .156-.157 inch thick _without_ the .008 inch spacer.


C-40,

My 12-27 cassette did _not_ have any extra 0.2mm spacers, only the 2.2mm spacers as shown on Campy's 2009 parts lists.

I will measure my 2nd cog (13t) on 12-27 cassette next time I have it off (possibly within a week).

What _range_ are your cassettes? 
Is your 2nd cog a 12t or 13t ?


----------



## zamboni

I had a 12/27 cassette and the last spacer looks difference than the one between 13 and 14 cogs.


----------



## zamboni

Just got off the phone with Campy tech support according to Dan there is no recall on the 11 speed cassette.


----------



## volubilis

Does that mean there is no problem, or just that they're not going to do anything about it? Is that memo cited in the original post available?


----------



## zamboni

Volubilis,

According to Campy there is no issue or recall on the cassette either unless some one got a official memo from Campy if they don't mind to share with the forum.


----------



## tom_h

*Measurements*

My 11sp Chorus 12-27 cassette was off the wheel today, and I took these measurements.

Instruments: 
Mitutoyo IP65 micrometer 0-1"
Mitutoyo IP66 vernier caliper micrometer 0-8" (for 1st cog only, cog wouldn't seat squarely in mic jaws).

I measured typ 3 places on cog, the range of thicknesses shown reflects that.

12t ... *4.21* mm (_this cog is thicker, a sort-of built-in spacer_)
13t ... *1.59* mm
spacer ... *2.22* mm
14t ... *1.59-1.60* mm
spacer ... *2.22* mm
15t ... *1.57-1.58* mm
spacer ... *2.22* mm
16t ... *1.60-1.61* mm
spacer ... *2.22* mm
17-19-21 cluster ... *9.18-9.22* mm (_equivalent to 3 cogs & 2 spacers_)
spacer ... *2.22* mm
23-25-27 cluster ... *9.23-9.24* mm (_equivalent to 3 cogs & 2 spacers_)

Note that *12t and 13t cog are spaced wider than the other cogs, by about 0.4 mm*. 12t & 13t have pitch 4.21 mm, the other adjacent cogs have pitch about 3.79-3.83 mm. Anyone know what the purpose or benefit might be?

Strictly speculation concerning this "extra" 0.2mm spacer some have found behind the 2nd cog -- it might make for a more gradual transition of the pitches. 
ie, 4.21 to 4.01 to 3.81 mm
instead of jumping 4.21 to 3.81 mm.

Addendum:
I'm guessing C-40 has 11-23 or 11-25 cassettes ... _both_ the 1st & 2nd cog have a built-in spacer. 
Thickness of his 2nd cog (12t ?) : 0.157" = *3.99 mm*.
Thickness of his 2nd cog w/ extra spacer : *4.19 mm*.

Compare to my 2nd cog (13t) + spacer : *3.81* mm.
Thickness of my 1st cog (12t) w/ built-in spacer: *4.21* mm.


----------



## C-40

*info...*

What you've proven is that the .2mm spacer is only used with a cassette starting with an 11T cog. Your measurements of the second cog match mine. The .2mm spacer still seems like an afterthought. It makes no sense for a built-in spacer to not be the proper thickness.

The reason for the different spacing is simply to get the cog spacing matched to the RD travel. It's a complicated issue involving the cable pull and the RD actuation ratio, which is not constant across the entire cassette. Only the designers understand it completely.

I've measured the cable pulls as accurately as I can with a precision machinist's scale. Just like in the past, the first 5 pulls are about the same and then become a little larger. In total, the cable pull is .5-1mm greater than 10 speed.

The RD's actuation ratio is slightly larger than 10 speed, but as I've posted before, it's not hard to correct the difference, so a 10 speed RD can be used with 11.


----------



## volubilis

Below is info on this issue via email from Campy -


Quoting Technical information Campagnolo <[email protected]>:

> Dear Mr. John,
>
> no, it's not exact. There isn't any missing spacer in 
> 11s sprockets cassette but there is a new spacer ( shape and size 
> 2,3mm ) to place it between the 5° and 6° cog, as option, to increase 
> functionality when is needed. The code is CS-712 ( 2 pz package but 
> you need and use only one ) to purchase as spare part. For ordering I 
> invite you to contact any Campagnolo Pro-Shop around you. Otherwise 
> you may contact our Service Center in your country. Here the attached 
> link:
>
> http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/it/proshop/index.jsp
>
> http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/it/service/index.jsp
>
>
> Cordiali Saluti/ Best Regards
> Federico Fiori
> Campagnolo Service Center


> Da: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Inviato: mercoledì 27 maggio 2009 2.28
> A: Technical information Campagnolo
> Oggetto: Contact form da campagnolo.com - John Markley
> email: [email protected]
> gruppo: 2009 Record 11

> oggetto: cassette spacers
> testo: There is information (a rumor?) circulating on the Internet 
> that some 2009 11-speed cassettes should have additional thin spacers 
> that are missing. Is this true, and if so what is the procedure to 
> correct this? Thanks, John M. Markley Jr., [email protected]
>


----------



## Lionel

*spacer*

So, are all 11 speeds cassette in need of this spacer?


----------



## volubilis

His words were " to increase functionality when is needed". Didn't define what "when is needed" means. You could email him to ask. My guess is if you have an 11sp cassette and are having trouble with precise rear derailleur shifting and you are certain you have everything tuned correctly, you could disassemble the cassette, see if the 5-6 cog spacer is the old 2.2mm or the new 2.3mm, and if it is 2.2 get a new 2.3 and try it. If shifting is ok I'd leave it alone. I have an older Record 11 12-27 with the 2.2 spacer and a newer Veloce 11 12-27 with the 2.3 spacer, and they both work ok.

v.


----------



## Lionel

*wording*

Yeah, I noticed that the wording was not very clear. It would be good to know what the wrong behaviour is. My 11-25 is shifting fine but I would say that it is not "perfect".


----------



## volubilis

Ooops - sorry - I made an error in my previous post - meant to say a Chorus 11 with the 2.3 spacer, not Veloce. And, you might not need to disassemble the cassette to see which spacer is in the 5-6 space. The older 2.2 is round and is the same as the rest of the black plastic spacers at 3-4, 4-5, etc. The newer 2.3 at 5-6 has a scalloped shape, which you can see with good light even with the cassette intact and mounted.

v.


----------



## Lionel

*spacers*

thanks good info. I looked it over. My cassette is Super Record and the spacers from 3-4,4-5 and 5-6 are all black ones and look the same. All the others are different. So it looks like I may just order that spacer and see what happens.



volubilis said:


> Ooops - sorry - I made an error in my previous post - meant to say a Chorus 11 with the 2.3 spacer, not Veloce. And, you might not need to disassemble the cassette to see which spacer is in the 5-6 space. The older 2.2 is round and is the same as the rest of the black plastic spacers at 3-4, 4-5, etc. The newer 2.3 at 5-6 has a scalloped shape, which you can see with good light even with the cassette intact and mounted.
> 
> v.


----------



## volubilis

Very good. Please let us all know the result.

v.


----------



## C-40

*alternative...*



Lionel said:


> thanks good info. I looked it over. My cassette is Super Record and the spacers from 3-4,4-5 and 5-6 are all black ones and look the same. All the others are different. So it looks like I may just order that spacer and see what happens.


You can make your own .1mm spacer with a pair of scissors or Xacto knife and some pop can aluminum. .1mm is so little that I can't imagine it helping much.


----------



## zamboni

I talked to tech support ( San Diego office ) today and Dan confirmed there is no recall on cassette.


----------



## irideti

So has anyone tried the new 2.3mm spacer yet? How did it work?


----------



## voodooguy

I would imagine the vague response is a tactic to avoid a recall. It sounds like it works w/o but better w/... But, I wouldn't know because I don't have my Campy yet....


----------



## Lionel

*Spacer*

My LBS was supposed to call me when he got the spacer in... It has been over a month now. Still no news. I would be interested to find out if for some people it improved the shifting or noise. My first 3 cogs 11-12-13 are noisier that the other in particular when on the big ring in front.


----------



## tom_h

Cross referencing to this post:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=181852

and this external link:
http://glorycycles.blogspot.com/2009/06/campagnolo-11-speed-performance.html

Apparently there IS an available, slightly thicker 2.3mm spacer, that fits between the 
-- 16t and 17t cogs (on 12-25 and 12-27 cassettes)
-- 15t and 16t cogs (on 11-23 and 11-25 cassettes)

Looks like they're trying to minimize or "split the difference" on some cumulative pitch error, between the extreme ends of the cassette.


----------



## Lionel

*Some more questions*

Today I looked my new Chrorus 11s cassette (11-25) that I have not used yet. It has this very thin spacer that C-40 talked about after the second cog. My Super Record 11-25 cassette does not have it.

Is this spacer supposed to serve the same function as the new 2.3mm spacer?

In other words, if I ever get this 2.3mm spacer from my LBS should I use it alone or should it be combined with this thin spacer?

Thanks


----------



## tom_h

I am curious to evaluate this 2.3mm spacer ... my 11sp shifting "seems" OK ... but could it be better?

I called Glory Cycles today, they told me the CS-712 spacers are not yet available as a separate item.


----------



## irideti

Campagnolo Service Center in Carlsbad, California has those spacers in stock as of last week. My LBS ordered them for me and they arrived next day. (I'm in Southern California as well)

My SR 11s shifting is 95% good after installing new housing & cables 'correctly' last week and I'm hoping the new spacer will make it 99% or 100%.


----------



## Pirx

Hah, this might be just what I've been looking for! I had this issue, on two Super-Record cassettes (one 12-25, the other 12-27), where the fifth cog would always be slightly more noisy than the rest, no matter what I did. I have the derailleur adjusted so it shifts perfectly under all conditions, up or down, but I can't get rid of the noise on the fifth cog. I'll order the spacer on Monday, and see if that fixes my issue


----------



## Richieg

Pirx said:


> Hah, this might be just what I've been looking for! I had this issue, on two Super-Record cassettes (one 12-25, the other 12-27), where the fifth cog would always be slightly more noisy than the rest, no matter what I did. I have the derailleur adjusted so it shifts perfectly under all conditions, up or down, but I can't get rid of the noise on the fifth cog. I'll order the spacer on Monday, and see if that fixes my issue


 Are these spacers free since there is a problem or is Campy charging something?


----------



## tom_h

volubilis said:


> Ooops - sorry - I made an error in my previous post - meant to say a Chorus 11 with the 2.3 spacer, not Veloce. And, you might not need to disassemble the cassette to see which spacer is in the 5-6 space. The older 2.2 is round and is the same as the rest of the black plastic spacers at 3-4, 4-5, etc. The newer 2.3 at 5-6 has a scalloped shape, which you can see with good light even with the cassette intact and mounted.


I ordered a # CS-712 spacer from LBS. What I received, although it measured 2.31 mm thick, doesn't seem right : 

-- no identifying # on spacer or package.
-- inside edge of spacer is perfectly round, no mating tabs for splines on body of freehub.
-- outside edge is not 'scalloped' - it's 5-sided - a pentagon.
-- each vertex of pentagon has a "bump", maybe 0.5mm high, in the direction of the axle axis.

I can't imagine how this would fit (properly) onto an 11sp cassette & freehub.

Is this some random 2.3mm spacer shipped by a lazy stock clerk, to the LBS? 
I'm skeptical that it is the correct 2.3mm # CS-712 spacer.


----------



## Richieg

tom_h said:


> I ordered a # CS-712 spacer from LBS. What I received, although it measured 2.31 mm thick, doesn't seem right :
> 
> -- no identifying # on spacer or package.
> -- inside edge of spacer is perfectly round, no mating tabs for splines on body of freehub.
> -- outside edge is not 'scalloped' - it's 5-sided - a pentagon.
> -- each vertex of pentagon has a "bump", maybe 0.5mm high, in the direction of the axle axis.
> 
> I can't imagine how this would fit (properly) onto an 11sp cassette & freehub.
> 
> Is this some random 2.3mm spacer shipped by a lazy stock clerk, to the LBS?
> I'm skeptical that it is the correct 2.3mm # CS-712 spacer.


 When do you buy your cassette?


----------



## tom_h

Richieg,
My 12-27 Chorus-11 cassette was purchased in early April 2009 from Ribble (UK). All spacers are 2.2mm. 

It seems to shift "OK", just wondering if the 2.3mm would somehow "improve" it. 
After a while, one acclimates and it always seems "normal" -- one doesn't realize if it could be "better".


----------



## Richieg

tom_h said:


> Richieg,
> My 12-27 Chorus-11 cassette was purchased in early April 2009 from Ribble (UK). All spacers are 2.2mm.
> 
> It seems to shift "OK", just wondering if the 2.3mm would somehow "improve" it.
> After a while, one acclimates and it always seems "normal" -- one doesn't realize if it could be "better".


Yea, I bought mine in early April from Texas Cycle Sport. I think they have a retail store, but also mail order. I've looked at the cassette, but I don't know what I'm looking regarding the shims. I see them in there, but don't know what size they are. Contact Glory Cycles in Orlando, I know they have the 2.3 shim your looking for. Give them a call and ask for Lance. He's an expert on the 11 speed stuff. They sell a lot of Super Record, etc.


----------



## C-40

*thoughts...*

I don't think that a measly .1mm will make a noticeable difference, but it would be easy to make you own .1mm shim from a soda pop can. Place the spacer on the aluminum and trace around it with an Xacto knife. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to make.


----------



## tom_h

*new 11-25 has 2.3 mm spacer*

Received my new 11-25 Chorus cassette today.
It does have the new 2.3mm spacer between the 15t cog and 16-17-19 triplet cog. 

The 2.3 spacer is the pentagon shaped I referred to in my post #34, above -- I did receive the correct item from LBS. Its design ensures it can only fit in front of the triplet cog -- clever.

There is no extra 0.2mm spacer behind the 2nd (12t) cog -- this cog only has the usual "built in" spacer.


----------



## tom_h

*Campy tech sheet*

Below is a sheet that accompanied my new 11-25 cassette -- although it seems applicable to all 11sp cassettes.
Note the revision date: 11/2008. It appears Campy was planning this, for some time.

While the 2.3mm spacer (# CS-712) is not "mandatory" or a "recall" -- the latter being restricted to serious safety hazards -- I'd speculate that Campy judges the new spacer to provide "enhanced" shifting.
.


----------



## Richieg

tom_h said:


> Below is a sheet that accompanied my new 11-25 cassette -- although it seems applicable to all 11sp cassettes.
> Note the revision date: 11/2008. It appears Campy was planning this, for some time.
> 
> While the 2.3mm spacer (# CS-712) is not "mandatory" or a "recall" -- the latter being restricted to serious safety hazards -- I'd speculate that Campy judges the new spacer to provide "enhanced" shifting.
> .


How much did they charge you for the shim?


----------



## C-40

*info...*

What you have is the spacer that goes between the 16 and 17T cogs. The bumps go into the open spaces between the arms of the carrier. Sounds correct to me.

I just got a 12-27 cassette and it includes this spacer between the 16 and 17.


----------



## tom_h

Richieg said:


> How much did they charge you for the shim?


LBS charged me $5.


----------



## tom_h

C-40 said:


> What you have is the spacer that goes between the 16 and 17T cogs. The bumps go into the open spaces between the arms of the carrier. Sounds correct to me.
> I just got a 12-27 cassette and it includes this spacer between the 16 and 17.


Right ... between the 16 & 17 on a 12-27 ... or between 15 & 16 on an 11-25 ... the 2.3mm pentagonal spacer is always in front/top of the riveted "triplet" group of cogs.


----------



## Jbartmc

Any issues on the 12-25 cassette? I ask this because mine is in constant need of adjustments.


----------



## TrailMix

*Yep...*



Jbartmc said:


> Any issues on the 12-25 cassette? I ask this because mine is in constant need of adjustments.


I just got done with a new build using 12-25. I am having the adjustment problem discussed here. I just got the cassette 2 wks ago but it came with the 2.2mm F spacer not the 2.3 mm G spacer.


----------



## C-40

*thoughts...*



TrailMix said:


> I just got done with a new build using 12-25. I am having the adjustment problem discussed here. I just got the cassette 2 wks ago but it came with the 2.2mm F spacer not the 2.3 mm G spacer.



If you're having an adjustment problem, a measly .1mm change isn't going to be a miracle cure. 

I've been using two cassettes without the 2.3mm spacer all season and I've had no problems.


----------



## Richieg

C-40 said:


> If you're having an adjustment problem, a measly .1mm change isn't going to be a miracle cure.
> 
> I've been using two cassettes without the 2.3mm spacer all season and I've had no problems.


 I hear mixed reviews about the new 11 speed. Some have constant problems, some have none. Could it be the guys working on the bikes don't know how to fine tune the drive train? Makes me wonder what the problem is...


----------



## TrailMix

C-40 said:


> If you're having an adjustment problem, a measly .1mm change isn't going to be a miracle cure.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I don't expect it to. I'm more inclined to the cable friction theory but I haven't had a chance to explore it yet. I will be chasing down the new G spacer though -- belt *and *suspenders.


----------



## tom_h

C-40 said:


> ... I've been using two cassettes _without_ the 2.3mm spacer all season and I've had no problems.


Same here, using a 12-27 cassette since April, about 1100 miles, no problems after the initial 100-200 mile break-in/cable-stretch period.
I'm trying the 2.3mm for curiosity, maybe it will make "good" shifting even "better" (?).


----------



## C-40

*cable friction...*



Richieg said:


> I hear mixed reviews about the new 11 speed. Some have constant problems, some have none. Could it be the guys working on the bikes don't know how to fine tune the drive train? Makes me wonder what the problem is...


My guess is cable friction. Adjusting the RD is no different than it has been in the past. The chain to cog clearance is the same as Shimano 10.

All bikes experience chain stretch in the first few hundred miles. If the bike owner isn't smart enough to occasionally increase the cable tension by 1/4 turn, perhaps once a week for the first week or two, then the shifting might get fouled up and stay that way until a good mechanic fixes it. If I'm having problems, I start all over and loosen the cable until it won't make the 1-2 shift properly, then begin tightening the cable a little at a time until all the shifts to larger cogs are good. Then I check the shifts to smaller cogs.


----------



## otoman

Cable routing/friction is an issue. I had been having some difficulty with cassettes that had a 2.2 spacer and cassettes that had a 2.3 spacer. Well, I rewrapped my bars and got to looking at the angle between the housing and the right shifter. It certainly was supoptimal with a bit of an unnatural bend as placed by the bike shop that built up my bike. I untaped the housing from the bar and retaped it allowing as much as possible of the natural curvature to remain that it had when completely free of the bar (am I making sense?). Also, I put a bit of Prolink Gold at the opening of the housing where the cable goes in at the shifter. It certainly seems to have helped the shifting on all the cassettes.


----------



## Richieg

otoman said:


> Cable routing/friction is an issue. I had been having some difficulty with cassettes that had a 2.2 spacer and cassettes that had a 2.3 spacer. Well, I rewrapped my bars and got to looking at the angle between the housing and the right shifter. It certainly was supoptimal with a bit of an unnatural bend as placed by the bike shop that built up my bike. I untaped the housing from the bar and retaped it allowing as much as possible of the natural curvature to remain that it had when completely free of the bar (am I making sense?). Also, I put a bit of Prolink Gold at the opening of the housing where the cable goes in at the shifter. It certainly seems to have helped the shifting on all the cassettes.


 Just wondering if "Power Cordz" would help the cable issues? It's supposed to be more flexable and doesn't stretch like steel cables.


----------



## otoman

I'm going to order a set of Powercordz with housing to see if it helps. I'm about due for new cables anyhoo....


----------



## tom_h

*Update 2.3 mm spacer*

For couple weeks, I've been riding an 11-25 cassette with new 2.3mm spacer between 15 & 16 cogs ... and honestly, I can't tell any difference.

Immediately prior, I was using a 12-27 cassette, with the original 2.2mm spacer between 16 & 17 cogs.

The difference in cassettes, makes it difficult to discern any difference attributable to 2.3 spacer alone.

Nevertheless, next time I re-install the 12-27 , it will be with the "new" 2.3 spacer, since it seems Campy is making it the new standard. My LBS ordered me a 2.3 spacer, at a reasonable $5 price (Campy part # CS-712).

I imagine any difference will be subtle ... I can appreciate why Campy didn't want to raise undue alarms and call it a "recall".


----------



## dpeka

I definitely experienced the same exact problem, even with the 2.3mm spacer (Campy Chorus 11, Record rear derailleur). When on the big chainring up front, depending on how I tune cable tension, some cogs are noisier than others. In my case, I had huge problems shifting from the big cog in the front (50) to the big cog in the bag (23). I know I shouldnt run with this combination, and I dont; however, I should be "allowed" to shift onto it. Adding a 1mm spacer before putting the cassette on the freehub definitely got rid of that problem - that said, I have to be careful the 11 teeth cog has enough space so that it doesnt rub the frame (I have the suspicion that if I were to lengthen the chain by half an inch, I would be good). 

My second back which has Campy Athena 11, has no issues at all. I love Campy, so I definitely hope it gets sorted out.


----------



## tom_h

*Locknut for freehub*

A day ago, the locknut on drive side, that secures the freehub on my Shamal wheel w/ 11sp, had worked slightly loose.

When I removed wheel to repair a flat, the locknut unscrewed about 1/2 turn. Result, the freehub was able to slide in/out by a couple millimeters, and I didn't notice at first.

However, that was enough to wreak havoc on shifting quality. Finally figured it out.

To properly tighten locknut I needed to:
-- remove cassette.
-- 17mm open end or box wrench to hold drive side locknut steady.
-- 5mm hex bit inserted inside axle on drive side, torque to 11 ft-lb (15 N-m).

As long as both sides of axle are 'free' and un-restrained, torquing the axle with hex bit is equivalent to torquing the locknut ... I did not have a 17mm crow foot wrench to use.


----------

