# Hole in Carbon S-Works frame



## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

A rock hit my S-works while riding and put a hole in my carbon frame down tube. The hole is about the same size as one of the pre-drilled holes in the frame that is used to attach a water bottle onto the frame.

Given that the damage was caused by a road hazard, Specialized warranty does not apply. 

I am wondering what is the best way to repair the hole? Would a 2-part structural adhesive be strong enough to fill and provide the strength needed to keep riding this frame? 









Is there a better way to repair?

Specialized is telling me it is not safe to repair - but it does not look like there is any structural damage. The frame has 24,900 miles on it and I would love to blow past the 25,000 mile mark and then hopefully onto 30,000.

Should I be concerned about riding this frame - even after repairing?

Any recommendations regarding what to do and what to use to repair would be appreciated.


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Calfee


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Do you have a picture? It's really hard to believe a rock put a hole that small though the carbon without cracking around it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

kt22mike said:


> A rock hit my S-works while riding and put a hole in my carbon frame down tube. The hole is about the same size as one of the pre-drilled holes in the frame that is used to attach a water bottle onto the frame.


Hate to break it to you, but that is structural damage. The composite continuum has been broken. It can probably be repaired pretty easily by someone knowledgable.




> I am wondering what is the best way to repair the hole? Would a 2-part structural adhesive be strong enough to fill and provide the strength needed to keep riding this frame?
> 
> Is there a better way to repair?


Yes. The hole needs to be drilled/reamed/machined to assure stress relief. Otherwise, the edges may easily lead to stress risers that will serve for crack propagation along the tube. It's more than simply filling the hole.



> Specialized is telling me it is not safe to repair - but it does not look like there is any structural damage.


Looks can be very deceiving.



> The frame has 24,900 miles on it and I would love to blow past the 25,000 mile mark and then hopefully onto 30,000.
> 
> Should I be concerned about riding this frame - even after repairing?


After repairing by someone competent, no, not all.



> Any recommendations regarding what to do and what to use to repair would be appreciated.


Find a competent carbon bike repair facility. Calfee Designs has a reputation for being one of the best. But as they're in CA and you're in New England, that may not be practical. Check with a good, knowledgeable LBS or local framebuilder. Given the age of the bike the total cost of repair may exceed the current value. Just something to consider. You should also ask about a crash replacement discount for a new frame, and see what Specialized may offfer.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

picture is in original post


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

thanks for the info. specialized crash replacement program only applies to frames less than 6 years old.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

kt22mike said:


> picture is in original post


Sorry, having computer issues here but I can see it now.

Are for if you should worry about riding it after repair:

-If you repair it by the method you suggest - Yes, worry about it.

-If you have a carbon bike repair professional do it - No.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

This is a clear cut case for a need for professional repair.

It's not hard.
It's not expensive.
It doesn't take very long.
You really should have it done.

Calfee is good, Predator is good, Ruckus is good, there's many out there that are good and proven.

That being said, you do not have to send your frame away. You can do this yourself. What you have though, that epoxy, is not the right way to do this.

Predator does sell a DIY kit. It has the correct epoxy, replacement carbon fiber, compression tape, sand paper, everything you need.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZUlgEe1z08VUlrY_5Cwx_3Yqg9JYvEF0

You can watch the above 3 videos to show you the process of doing it yourself with their kit. That being said it's really much easier to send it off.

I would just strip the frame down and mail it off. It will only cost about $50 or so to ship and the repair should be less than $500 total.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Well, that sucks. Jay Strongbow raised a good point that I didn't mention - the possibility of underlying cracking on the composite. While the pic looks like a fairly clean hole, it's impossible to tell what may be lurking beneath the paint at this point. A well equipped and knowledgeable repair facility will be able to determine if there is more extensive damage via imaging the damaged area, either thermally, with ultrasound, or possibly by X-ray.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

I'm still trying to imagine how a flying rock can do that damage.....I'm suspicious this is another JRA story......and thus our assumptions of underlying or consequential damage and this type of repair needed are wrong.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

saw the rock immediately after it hit my bike. 

But I appreciate all the comments and sounds like a DIY repair may be the wrong way to go. The Forum has never steered me wrong.

Will check the recommended carbon repair companies provided - but given the price to ship to and from and the cost of the repair itself - alas i fear my black stallion is no more.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

MMsRepBike said:


> Predator does sell a DIY kit. It has the correct epoxy, replacement carbon fiber, compression tape, sand paper, everything you need.


It's interesting that anyone would offer a DIY kit for carbon fiber repair to the public. 

Two words: liability bomb. 

Other than the materials, Predator has zero quality control over the repairs that are being attempted with their kits. Okay, the job is fairly straightforward, but there are many things in life that that are straightforward yet can be (and consistently are) 'effed up to a fare-thee-well on a consistent basis. 

I'd offer to sell a kit to a shop if they agree to be trained and certified that they can do the repair safely. Sort of like S&S - they only offer to sell their couplers to professional frame builders in order to maintain some level of quality control.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Gregory Taylor said:


> It's interesting that anyone would offer a DIY kit for carbon fiber repair to the public.
> 
> Two words: liability bomb. ...


Gougeon Brothers, Inc. has been selling DIY epoxy repair systems and kits for boat constuction and repair for decades. What's different about bicycles?


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

kt22mike said:


> saw the rock immediately after it hit my bike.
> 
> But I appreciate all the comments and sounds like a DIY repair may be the wrong way to go. The Forum has never steered me wrong.
> 
> Will check the recommended carbon repair companies provided - but given the price to ship to and from and the cost of the repair itself - alas i fear my black stallion is no more.


Carbon Fiber Bike Repair | Ruckus Composites

would be top on my list, along with calfee. Treat yourself to a nice custom paint ala 'Chavanel' too, now that Spesh is out of the equation for a warranty issue...


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

ibericb said:


> Gougeon Brothers, Inc. has been selling DIY epoxy repair systems and kits for boat constuction and repair for decades. What's different about bicycles?


I'd posit that a botched repair on bike frame is more likely to result in a catastrophic failure that would result in injuries than doing a rotten job patching a small hole on a boat hull. especially in a non-critical area like a deck or on the hull above the water line. There are really no non-critical areas on a bike frame. Plus, a catastrophic failure on a bike frame at speed is far more likely to result in a serious injury. On a boat, you sink and get wet. Don the life vests....


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Gregory Taylor said:


> I'd posit that a botched repair on bike frame is more likely to result in a catastrophic failure that would result in injuries than doing a rotten job patching a small hole on a boat hull. especially in a non-critical area like a deck or on the hull above the water line. There are really no non-critical areas on a bike frame. Plus, a catastrophic failure on a bike frame at speed is far more likely to result in a serious injury. On a boat, you sink and get wet. Don the life vests....


You do realize that West System epoxies are used widely by DIY boat builders and boat owners to do way more than patch a small hole. We're talking about whole boat hull construction. As I see it the risk in boat building is death from drowning. It happens around here every year, multiple times.

I think the liability issue with a composite repair kit would end with the product, not the quality of the ensung repair, provided that appropriate cautionary statements, etc. are supplied along with the kit (you lawyer types get that one). 

You buy frame parts, including fork parts, for building your own bicycle and fork. How is that different from buying an epoxy-carbon fiber kit?


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

ibericb said:


> You do realize that West System epoxies are used widely by DIY boat builders and boat owners to do way more than patch a small hole. We're talking about whole boat hull construction. As I see it the risk in boat building is death from drowning. It happens around here every year, multiple times.
> 
> I think the liability issue with a composite repair kit would end with the product, not the quality of the ensung repair, provided that appropriate cautionary statements, etc. are supplied along with the kit (you lawyer types get that one).
> 
> You buy frame parts, including fork parts, for building your own bicycle and fork. How is that different from buying an epoxy-carbon fiber kit?


Actually, the warnings and disclaimers only go so far to defuse liability. And, as we all know, you can sue anyone...even if you are wrong.

There is a bit of a difference between a situation where, say, a person is building a bike or a boat from scratch and a repair kit designed to fix damage on a bike frame that, if repaired incorrectly, can injure or maim. 

With the bike or the boat, the person doing the building is pretty much presumed to be assuming the risk that their construction or design skills aren't up to snuff. Just like the way that if Lowes sells you wood and nails to build a deck they have little exposure if it collapses because, chances are, the problem is your bad design and not the supplies. Granted, if I bought some tubes that turned out to be defective, I (or my heirs) could sue. But good luck proving that the cause of my injury or untimely demise was the result of a defective product and not my own kack-handed design or construction.

A repair kit is different. Here you are attempting to fix something that is already known or assumed to be properly designed. Compounding the issue is the fact that, unless the fix is carried out properly, you are risking a catastrophic failure that is likely to result in an injury. To do a proper repair you need to be able to assess the condition of the structure and the damage and figure out if it can be repaired and how to carry it out. There is, I imagine, a fairly low threshold imposed by the manufacturer for being able to get your hands on this kit - all you need is money, and not a lot of that. No showing of skill, no proof that you know how to work with carbon fiber or assess damage. Plus, I am willing to wager that there are far more folks who are tempted to try a carbon fiber repair on a biffed bike - in order to save money - than there are folks who would attempt to build a frame and fork (or sea-going fiberglass Titanic) from scratch.

One could argue that, by not requiring some sort of training or certification as a prerequisite for buying the repair kit, the manufacturer was willfully or recklessly ignoring the risks that could foreseeably result if an unskilled person made a botched repair with their kit, or if they attempted to repair a frame that was beyond saving. The way that it is set up now, it is entirely foreseeable that unskilled folks will attempt to use the kit to attempt dumb repairs. And hurt themselves.

Or at least that's how I would argue it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I understand your arguments, counselor. But considering the vast array of DIY repair kits, tools, and materials widely available to enthusiasts and average users across a multitude of markets, I would submit this is a case of pounding on the table. However, in a plaintiff's liability case about all that's needed is to sway the thinking of a simple majority of a jury, and for that pounding the table is just as good as pounding the facts or the law, and is in fact often superior as has been witnessed many, many times in product liability suits.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

ibericb said:


> I understand your arguments, counselor. But considering the vast array of DIY repair kits, tools, and materials widely available to enthusiasts and average users across a multitude of markets, I would submit this is a case of pounding on the table. However, in a plaintiff's liability case about all that's needed is to sway the thinking of a simple majority of a jury, and for that pounding the table is just as good as pounding the facts or the law, and is in fact often superior as has been witnessed many, many times in product liability suits.


Good God, man! Think of the children! Their tiny little lives cut tragically short by all of that exploding carbon fiber. Bright, hopeful futures that will now never happen all because of unchecked corporate greed...shameless moguls and captains of industry lining their pockets with cash...cash earned from selling The Carbon Fiber Repair Kits Of Death to unwitting cyclists ....convincing the otherwise artless Joe and Jane Cyclist that they too have the knowledge and the skills that are necessary to repair their hopelessly damaged racing bicycles.....flim-flammery of the worst sort....innocent victims of penury and poorly applied carbon fiber resin. Oh, the humanity....


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Gregory Taylor said:


> Good God, man! Think of the children! Their tiny little lives cut tragically short by all of that exploding carbon fiber. Bright futures that will now never happen all because of unchecked corporate greed...shameless moguls and captains of industry lining their pockets with cash...cash earned from tempting unwitting cyclists, convinced that they have the skills to repair damaged carbon fiber racing bicycles.....victims of penury and poorly applied carbon fiber resin.


Fist hurting yet?


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

ibericb said:


> Fist hurting yet?



I'm more of the Smiling Assassin type in court. I'm usually the nice one. In fact, I won a motion today because I was nice. The Judge said so.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Gregory Taylor said:


> I'm more of the Smiling Assassin type in court. I'm usually the nice one. In fact, I won a motion today because I was nice. The Judge said so.


You and my sister. But then she will crush anyone who hasn't done their homework properly (she is always too well prepared). Judges seem to like her for that.

Smiling is safer - you wn't get splinters in your hand that way.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

If it costs more to fix it back to original then it's a throw away. Period.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Agent319 said:


> If it costs more to fix it back to original then it's a throw away. Period.


"More" is a comparative term. More than what?

The question is what would be the value of the bike frame today, vs the cost of the repair? The value of the frame depends on who's looking at it, and how they would use it.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Agent319 said:


> If it costs more to fix it back to original then it's a throw away. Period.


Agree, even if it doesn't cost more the difference can't be that big. No need to overcomplicate things.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I propose that you could fix it with a kit and forget about it. No problem, will never have a problem with it.

From a structural point of view, that particular member is mostly in tension to hold the bottom of the head tube from pulling away from the BB. As a matter of fact, there is a series of bikes that are built that have a cable in place of the downtube. 

Now if you are a heavy sprinter and hammer by pulling and pushing on the bars, then there are some torsional forces that this solid member will resist. But short of being Griepel or Kiddel, after a patch you should be good to go.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

30K on a frame? With a hole in it now? Good time to retire it and thank it for the length of service it provided. Build up a new frame and enjoy your next 30K. No risk.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Special Eyes said:


> 30K on a frame? With a hole in it now? Good time to retire it and thank it for the length of service it provided. Build up a new frame and enjoy your next 30K. No risk.


No reason, other than physical damage from a wreck or abuse, for it not to perform well for 100k, and more.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Yeah, but spend several hours breaking down, packing, driving to ship, waiting to get it back, and all for maybe $675.00? Could order in a great new frame for not much more.

Now, if the frame was just a couple of years old then maybe it would be worth the repair.

Best of luck, the repair shops mentioned will fix it fine...


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

DIY kit is about $100.

One of those shops will likely charge about $150 to fix it. Add more for basic paint to cover the repair if desired. Add even more for graphics/decals/paint if desired. It could get kind of expensive. But for a total of $250 I think it can be done. Provided the frame can be stripped and rebuilt for free that is. $250 is reasonable to me and I wouldn't care at that point about hiding the repair. Sucks no matter what though. Sure is a good excuse for a new bike too.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Resale value of the (old) frame undamaged is probably under $500. So don't even bother sending it out to any carbon repair shop

But the damaged frame is not a waste. Just keep it in case one day you get a trainer.

And as a sidenote, I've never seen a steel frame get a hole put in it this way. So steel is real. Here comes the carbon fanboys.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> ...And as a sidenote, I've never seen a steel frame get a hole put in it this way. So steel is real. Here comes the carbon fanboys.


You're right, and the same can be said for Al and Ti too.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

ibericb said:


> Gougeon Brothers, Inc. has been selling DIY epoxy repair systems and kits for boat constuction and repair for decades. What's different about bicycles?


Not to mention home-built aircraft kits and materials.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> And as a sidenote, I've never seen a steel frame get a hole put in it this way. So steel is real. Here comes the carbon fanboys.


I had a steel frame for years and loved it. However, I've seen cracked welds in steel and Al. I've seen a Al down tube break in half during a climb. I have seen Al handlebars and seatposts snap.

But, one cannot let a carbon thread pass without assplosion commentary.


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> Resale value of the (old) frame undamaged is probably under $500. So don't even bother sending it out to any carbon repair shop
> 
> But the damaged frame is not a waste. Just keep it in case one day you get a trainer.
> 
> And as a sidenote, I've never seen a steel frame get a hole put in it this way. So steel is real. Here comes the carbon fanboys.


The logic in regards to the resale value is valid. However, the replacement cost vs the repair cost is more relevant. I would think that this repair can be done for around $250-$300 based on what I have seen others pay. In that case, I may go the repair route.
Of course the new frame route is enticing as well. If it were me, I may buy a new frame but also the repair kit. It would be fun to take a stab at repairing it.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

looigi said:


> Not to mention home-built aircraft kits and materials.


Their carbon fiber epoxy has shown up in some pretty cool places...


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

Couple updates and responses to some of the Forum's recommendations (and rantings)...

Got a quote to repair the frame at one of the forums' recommended carbon repair companies - $250. Need to check shipping costs before I commit. 

Not a big deal for me to breakdown and re-build so no added costs there.

Given the cost of a DIY kit and having never work with carbon and epoxy before, the $250 quote to repair seems reasonable.

New S-works frame is $3000 and the best I have seen on ebay for a used S-works frame is $900 plus shipping. Given the risk of carbon structure breakdown not sure I want to buy a frame sight unseen.

I already built a second bike (aluminum) last year that I am going to use on my long tours - so I can live without the frame for the 3-4 weeks it will take to repair.

As someone just recommended, I stripped most of the add-ons off the carbon bike yesterday and put it on my trainer. 

So it will have a useful life in any case. Thanks for all the advice.


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## kini (Feb 19, 2010)

kt22mike said:


> Couple updates and responses to some of the Forum's recommendations (and rantings)...
> 
> Got a quote to repair the frame at one of the forums' recommended carbon repair companies - $250. Need to check shipping costs before I commit.
> 
> ...


If you don't care about the look of the repair, go to a marine supply store and get a piece,sheet,strip of stranded fiberglass (boat builders layer this to make hulls) and some epoxy, wrap the fiberglass around the frame, hit with the epoxy, repeat if you feel it needs it. 

The repair will be super strong, ugly but strong.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

*Repaired Frame*

I ended up sending my bike out for repair. I lucked out and was at my local bike shop and they had just received a postcard from a new company on the east coast that was doing carbon repairs called Swamp Ghost (We Repair Carbon Bike Frames | Fix Cracks & Paint Damage). 

I sent them a picture of my frame, they gave me a reasonable quote and off my frame went. I shipped the bike on a Friday, they received it on Monday and the frame was returned to me the same week. 

They gave me a choice of leaving the frame clear coated or painted (I opted for clear coat). As you an see they removed the Specialized sticker as it would have been obvious that a repair was done - looks great! When the frame is standing you can hardly see the repair.

Check them out - ask for Tom....


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Happy that everything worked out for you. $250 and a week turnaround for the repair seems very reasonable.


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## kt22mike (Oct 22, 2007)

the first estimate from the west coast was $250. Ghost was even cheaper.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Do you have a picture? It's really hard to believe a rock put a hole that small though the carbon without cracking around it.


In the early 90s when carbon was starting to become popular, I saw a few carbon MTB frames with holes punched in the downtubes from rocks. It's a bit weird to see it happen to a road bike, but it's not beyond belief.



kt22mike said:


> I ended up sending my bike out for repair...


The patch gives it character!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

kt22mike said:


> thanks for the info. specialized crash replacement program only applies to frames less than 6 years old.


Well tell them you are then going to buy a Cannondale.


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