# A simple question on groups you might consider on next bike



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

For 2010, if you are in the market for a new bike; would you consider Red or DuraAce, Force or Ultegra, Rival or 105?

I would think this has been covered, but I could not find a clear idea on new products using search -- plus market is in flux.

I am seeing lots of interest in Rival from CX types and Red from tri types; but I am uncertain how many road types would interest in Red, Force, or Rival on a new bike in 2010 model year.

Any input is appreciated.

BTW - of course, I would like to do Campy too; but can never tell what the Euro/USD exchange will do and what move will be during the lead-time: so Campy is risky to order to say the least.


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

'09 Rival - best set for the price in my opinion. And people seem to really like the new 105 line. I'd concentrate on both. Force? Probably the least popular. As far as market popularity, I'm going to have to put them in this order over the next couple of years:

(1) Rival
(2) 105
(3) Red
(4) DA 7900
(5) Ultegra

That's just my opinion on the market as a whole, not a claim as to which one group is "better" than another


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## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

I currently have campy record 10speed. While I love record and I got it at a good price, I think it far exceeds my riding capability and I could easily have just as much fun and performance with a lower end group.

Next, I would consider the following (in no particular order)
Campy Chorus (although I am hesitant to go with 11 speed)
Campy Centaur
Sram Rival
Sram Force


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## RoadBikeVirgin (Nov 21, 2008)

*Sorry, I was replying with what I thought the MARKET would want *

If we're talking about me, considering performance, value, and all of those other factors that people consider when choosing a group, here would be my order of choices...

(1) Rival
(2) Red
(3) DA 7900
(4) 105
(5) Ultegra SL
(6) Ultegra
(7) Force


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

full group should include the cranks/bb... none of that mix 'n match jive


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## yakky (May 7, 2008)

FatTireFred said:


> full group should include the cranks/bb... none of that mix 'n match jive


Amen. FSA makes some nice stuff, but their cranks and BB's are not anywhere near the level of Shimano. Tektro brakes are ok, but again, Shimano are better. Best bang for the buck is 105 for sure. Sram looks like they make some nice stuff but I don't like the double tap


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## jonathanb (Jan 19, 2007)

My new bike (delivered this week) will have '09 Rival - currently seems to be the value champ among groups. My old bike has Ultegra, which I still think (particularly the SL) is the sweet spot in Shimano's line for value.

JB


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## repartocorse40 (Feb 23, 2009)

i am a campy faithful...one who thinks its worth the money to just get what you want(read not the best deal/cheapest gruppo)...looks like the new ultegra looks pretty sweet....see the velonews article on that...

alternatively the new athena from campy will offer 11 speed if your into that

for me of the options you list....i would only consider the dura ace or the new ultegra...sram just doesnt do it for me.

as far as your question goes you are essentially asking shimano Vs. Sram? I go with shimano...but feel that campy deserves a look ...especially if you haven't ridden it...some people love it...like me!


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> full group should include the cranks/bb... none of that mix 'n match jive


agreed
but there should be options
models with Full Group and budget minded models with other cranks&brakes

in the case of Sram - probably all bikes shld be full group
in Shimano lots of people accept and even like FSA cranks, etc

{surprising note -- We make more money on full group bikes than on reduced group bikes}


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> agreed
> but there should be options
> models with Full Group and budget minded models with other cranks&brakes
> 
> ...




if that's the case, then why not make 'em all real full groups, and give an option of fsa or whatever cranks? if people accept 'em, my guess is that's the price you pay for the price you pay. if people like or actually prefer 'em (I kinda doubt this) then that can be an upgrade for an upcharge. for the budget stuff, who cares, people buying those don't know any better


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

repartocorse40 said:


> i am a campy faithful...one who thinks its worth the money to just get what you want(read not the best deal/cheapest gruppo)...looks like the new ultegra looks pretty sweet....see the velonews article on that...
> 
> alternatively the new athena from campy will offer 11 speed if your into that
> 
> ...



Love it at $1.25 to Euro - Hate it at $1.50 to Euro
when booking you can not know price until it ships; if dollar falls right before ship date OE buyer is killed

shimano and sram do not have this problem, book it at fixed USD price

Since buying currency futures is not part of my business model - Campy is really hard to order. I think this situation really effects how much Campy spec you see in the USA

That said - how is 11-speed going over???
We never hear a lot of requests for it


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> if that's the case, then why not make 'em all real full groups, and give an option of fsa or whatever cranks? if people accept 'em, my guess is that's the price you pay for the price you pay. if people like or actually prefer 'em (I kinda doubt this) then that can be an upgrade for an upcharge. for the budget stuff, who cares, people buying those don't know any better



Price points
some people like a reduced group bike at $300 less [Ultegra] or $800 less DA
example - new Immortal Spirit is $1995 with 7900 reduced group -- Immortal Team is $2795 for full group 7900 -- That is $800 that some customers do not want to spend and they are happy with FSA and cane creek brakes on $1995 version

So on many bikes; we will offer option of reduced and full
in the case of Sram - we will probably on road use full group only and in CX & Tri use reduced groups [no Rival cantis anyway -- and Tri types seem to like SLK & K-Force cranks]

No way to make everyone happy on this spec
But we are going to greatly increase number CF and Ti bikes so there will be tons of options


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

If I were _buying_, Ultegra would be my first choice based on value and function.

If I were selling, probably Rival now that it has CF levers. Its cheaper (presumably), but the relatively low weight and CF inflate its perceived value.


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## bikesarethenewblack (Dec 30, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> That said - how is 11-speed going over???
> We never hear a lot of requests for it


15 year dura ace user here. Background: CAT II who is now over 35 and downgraded to CAT III.

I literally just got Campy 11 speed chorus. Price was too good, and chorus seemed to be top performance - record and super record just seemed to be lighter with no performance gain. Here is my one week observation.

Campy makes the best hoods. Yes, the best - make sure you actually really try a new campy hood.

Modulation on brakes is better, not as strong as ace, but safer - think ABS.

Downshift is awesome. Way better then shimano, downshift as in 53 to 39 and 21 to 11.

11 is fine. Yea, we don't need 11 any more than 10,9 or even 8 - however, the cluster is that much tighter.

Upshift is a little too tight. Ace was better. It rained with 48 degree weather and I had to ride back about 20 miles at a TT pace - I actually didn't want to upshift at times cause it's so stiff. 

Way lighter than ace. My 60cm dale actually kind felt light for the first time.

All in all, happy, and I will see if there a breakin period for upshift. All things being equal, I like campy, but, as we al know - sometimes all else is not equal (investment in tools and exchange rates, blah, blah).

I'll have a longer review on the campy forum.


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## WhyRun (Dec 29, 2008)

Easy, Dura Ace 7900. Will be upgrading my Orca from UltegraSL to Dura Ace soon,a nd put the Ultegra on a different frame.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Price points
> some people like a reduced group bike at $300 less [Ultegra] or $800 less DA
> example - new Immortal Spirit is $1995 with 7900 reduced group -- Immortal Team is $2795 for full group 7900 -- That is $800 that some customers do not want to spend and they are happy with FSA and cane creek brakes on $1995 version




sure, you make the diff that much and people will go for price and "settle" for off-group components... but let's keep it simple and try to compare apples to apples, and not mix in diff grade components and diff frames. put the same group on the same frame and at the same price or slightly higher for the one w/ fsa cranks, and which do you think they would they choose most of the time?


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Disjointed comments:

I'm vaguely interested in SRAM, but the new Ultegra really has my eye right now. 

I prefer value to all-out bling, and mostly think DA/Red to be over the top for me. At the same time, I want 'more' than 105, so I like the Ultegra slot - especially with the new levers.

I don't mind 'reduced' groups out of hand, and if (for example) an FSA crank puts DA into the full Ultegra range (or close) I'd imagine it'd get a few hits. 

For SRAM, Red really needs to be a full group, except perhaps the 1090 cassette, which I'd probably avoid at equal pricing to 1070. So far, it seems to be priced a bit too strongly as compared to DA in my mind. But I would be interested to see what you could put a ti/Red bike together for.

Force/Rival is an interesting problem to my mind. There just doesn't seem to be any justification for Force, beyond just a notch of upscale-ness. But the price delta doesn't support it in my mind. But your business model may have more room for it.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Campy Chorus for me, when I upgrade my PedalForce, if I can afford it, I'll go Record. But more likely Chorus. SRAM is my 2nd choice. I have ergonomic issues with Shimano, so won't even consider that on a road bike. I like the Shimano shifters on my MTB though.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

I've ridden Shimano Ultegra and 105 on previous bikes...My new bike has SRAM Rival on it. 

For me it's no longer even a debate...SRAM all the way....Rival, Force or Red. If I had the money, I'd go with SRAM Red on a future bike...but, lack of money will prevent that from happening any time soon 

At this time though, I don't see a huge need for SRAM Force since Rival is every bit as good and only a few grams heavier for less money.

Never tried Campy, only checked it out on showroom floors...the shifters don't seem to fit my hands well and since I have a fused left thumb, the shifters are not a real option for me, so it will always be Shimano or SRAM for me.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> sure, you make the diff that much and people will go for price and "settle" for off-group components... but let's keep it simple and try to compare apples to apples, and not mix in diff grade components and diff frames. put the same group on the same frame and at the same price or slightly higher for the one w/ fsa cranks, and which do you think they would they choose most of the time?


We have done that:
Immortal Force [reduced] and Immortal Ice [full]
le Champion Ti [reduced] and le Champion SL Ti [full]

Ti bikes sell so fast I can not tell if either is more popular
CF bikes the lower priced reduced Ultegra out sells the higher priced full Ultegra

I think there is a market for both
BUT agree that in the case of Sram [and Campy] Full Groups would be the only ones I would do

With Shimano, I think so many people are so used to reduced groups on Treks, Specialized, Giant, Fuji, Kestrel, and about everything else - that the market for reduced group Shimano 105, Ultegra, and DuraAce will stay strong.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

1st choice Chorus
2nd choice Chorus
3rd choice Chorus

If it's a steel frame, Chorus w/ 06 Record Crank


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

you said you "make more money on full group bikes than on reduced group bikes"... so why is the full ultegra priced higher? or is that why you make more money on them???  and what is the difference in price?


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

I've drunk the KoolAid. SRAM all the way for me these days. I wouldn't buy a complete bike without it. I think Rival is the best bang for the buck and probably wouldn't spend the extra for the higher grade gruppos unless I was getting upgraded wheels and other amenities with it.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

I'm getting old, so top-of-the line isn't a big deal for me anymore. I guess I'm deciding between the new Ultegra and Chorus. I'd go SRAM, but that double-tap shift thing is really weird.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

krisdrum said:


> I've drunk the KoolAid. SRAM all the way for me these days. * I wouldn't buy a complete bike without it.* I think Rival is the best bang for the buck and probably wouldn't spend the extra for the higher grade gruppos unless I was getting upgraded wheels and other amenities with it.


I wouldn't buy a complete bike, period.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

ClassicSteel71 said:


> I wouldn't buy a complete bike, period.


Me either. Haven't in quite awhile. Just trying to answer the OP's question. He sells mostly complete bikes.


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## 1stmh (Apr 7, 2007)

Campy chorus 11 would be my preference. I bought my last groupo (campy chorus) from ProBikekit for less than $800.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> you said you "make more money on full group bikes than on reduced group bikes"... so why is the full ultegra priced higher? or is that why you make more money on them???  and what is the difference in price?


There are two factors - cost of parts and min price allowed by the component maker -- so the formula is not something that is straight forward - but the bottom line is - full group bikes are more profitable - but price piont is higher - thus cutting out some buyers

Many buyers have a fixed limit on price - so as you move price point up; fewer buyers are can even consider the bike


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

ClassicSteel71 said:


> I wouldn't buy a complete bike, period.


Even if the price was lower than the group and wheels alone???


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## rdolson (Sep 2, 2003)

I like Chorus. It's got all the engineering with just a little more weight than Record and S.Record.

It also has a bit to do with the frame.

I bought a Kestrel RT700 from Mike at BD last year. I first put my Chorus 10sp group on it. Enjoyed the bike and everything worked really well. Later I put a full DA kit on it and shifting was a little sloppier and harder to tune it up.

The Campy has a nice, crisp, strong shift. The DA, which I have on other bikes as well, shifts with a very smooth, almost watchlike feel to it. 

The Kestrel frame, with it's internal cables, liked the positive shifting feel of the Campy over the softer feel of the DA. Just to check, I ran a separate cable from the brifter, outside the frame, to the RD and then the DA shited fine.

Those are the kind of things that a builder has to know. How does everything work together? Not just the price point and profit margins.


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## yakky (May 7, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Even if the price was lower than the group and wheels alone???


Show me one of your bikes that is cheaper complete than the group and wheels alone can be had for online (not MSRP) and I'll start parting them out on ebay.

Your customers want value, and the reduced groups do make sense. Fact of the matter is your brand bikes do not sell on name. They sell on value. For me campy and bikes direct just clash, campy isn't about value.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

DA *7800* - much nicer than new stuff...shiny and alum.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

DA drivetrain with Record Campy shifters and a shiftmate... Shimergo ftw! Sadly I don't see any 11 speed pulleys yet on their site, Jtek better get their act in "gear."


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

Force, Chorus, Veloce, Rival. 
Full groups, no substitutes, of course.
I put Tektro brakes and levers on my FG bike that look exactly like my 10-speed Chorus. Alas, even levers feel differently, and much worse at that.
And some quality wheels, please.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

sokudo said:


> Force, Chorus, Veloce, Rival.
> Full groups, no substitutes, of course.
> I put Tektro brakes and levers on my FG bike that look exactly like my 10-speed Chorus. Alas, even levers feel differently, and much worse at that.
> And some quality wheels, please.



We have a Full Force bike and it has sold rather slow, compared to Campy & Ultegra versions of the same bike. All used Ritchey WCS

So I think we are going to try RED and RIVAL in full groups using Mavic Wheels; maybe if RED can be at a very good price - customers will move up to that.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Incidentally, I won't buy a complete bike either. I have particular fit needs and need to set up exactly the right saddle, bar, stem, and pedals when I build a bike. I also want to make sure to set the stack height right for me. And then, like many, I'm particular about cable routing, bar tape, wheels, tires, tubes, etc.

I doubt it would be cost effective to offer full on custom bikes, but that's what I always end up with.


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## akatsuki (Aug 12, 2005)

1. SRAM Rival
2. Chorus 11
3. Di2 (if it was cheaper)

Frankly, SRAM Rival is such a sick deal in a group that the only reason to pick another group is electronic shifting or the other gear of Campy. There is no real reason to pick Ultegra or 105 over Rival except for trained habits (I ride Ultegra but will make the leap on my next bike). So SRAM Rival basically overrides Ultegra SL, Ultegra, and 105 for me and the equivalent Campy groups.

As for wheels, I am not a huge fan of Mavics, if you could get some Reynolds on your bikes, that would be very attractive.

Then again, I could care less about full groups, it is just marketing and lock-in to me - my ideal setup would have Sugino cranks at the low end and whatever the high end crank du jour is on the high end, Shimano DA brakes and SRAM shifting. But don't get me wrong, that bike probably wouldn't sell to anyone but me.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

totally agreed - rival is the best gruppo bang for buck for 09. The only downer is the FD, shimano FD seem to work better with a lighter action...

the higher end gruppos dont really deliver anything over rival - its already pretty light with well thought out and made components. if you want it really light, throw on the red crankset.


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## lalahsghost (Aug 27, 2007)

I have had '09 rival since December '08, and to tell you the truth, I think an Italian bit me on the ass 'cause I really want to try campy for my next bike (if that ever happens)


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

if u just ride by urself, campy is ok - its what i'm running now... in fact its nice...but neutral spares, sharing tools with team mates etc, becomes a real pain with compatibility issues. We're usually outnumbered at least 4 to 5, now sram is on the scene and ever popular as a shimano alternative.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Even if the price was lower than the group and wheels alone???


Even if the price you offer it for is lower, it won't be. I'd likely need a different stem, bars, and saddle. Then I'd need new tape too, and possibly cables and housings depending on the stem swap. I'd probably also want different tires and wheels.

Either way, for those inclined to do so, and know their own fit, it is generally less cost effective to buy a complete.


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## Mayday (Jan 22, 2004)

*Value shopper*

I'm another one who doesn't like to spend huge $$ on bike equipment, and I've found the lower- to mid-range components work fine for the kinds of riding I do. I'm also one who puts most of my emphasis on the frame and fork -- I'll buy a complete bike, but want the best frame I can find within my budget. If using 105 rather than Ultegra means I can get a better frame for my target price, that's the way I'd go. I have mostly 105 on my primary road bike and have been very happy with it. 

I'd consider Veloce or Centaur if the price was right. I'd also consider Rival, but I've never tried any of the Sram road parts, so I'd want to test ride a Sram-equiped bike first. I'd feel perfectly comfortable buying a 105 or Ultegra bike on-line if it fit my needs and budget.


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## DS1239622 (Mar 21, 2007)

+1 Ultegra


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## android (Nov 20, 2007)

ClassicSteel71 said:


> I wouldn't buy a complete bike, period.


In general I wouldn't either, but that's mostly due to the mix and match groups that everything has on them now. If a bike had a full Ultegra or DA group (including wheels) I would consider it.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Whatever the level, make it a complete gruppo. Mixing brake calipers, cranks or RD is :skep: My perceived value is getting it all matched right. The component mix is irritating to deal with when shopping for boxed bikes. That's because I remember the days when a gruppo X bike was complete with gruppo X. It also had similar level bars, stem, seat post, saddle, wheels, tires... 

When I buy into a certain level, I want the components to be at that level basically.


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## SkiRacer55 (Apr 29, 2005)

*I've always had Shimano...*

...and I currently have two Titus Oseos built up with Ultegra SL, which I really like, because it's functional, almost as light as DA, and a lot less money. Never used Campy or SRAM, so I'm curious...why do people like them? And I'm just asking, I'm not dissing...I heard that SRAM has some durability issues, however...


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## lalahsghost (Aug 27, 2007)

SRAM allegedly has weak chainrings, *and for me** the FD takes a scientist, an engineer and an artist to come up with the perfect mounting position. It's a little bit frustrating when something goes out of alignment.


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## desmo13 (Jun 28, 2006)

Been using the '09 SRAM Rival since december. Love it. Liked it better than the Ultegra. Red/DA out of my range.

I really don't imagine me using another group unless my tax bracket changes.


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## willhs (Apr 10, 2009)

Mike, I'll mention that I've been following the site, waiting for a Ti frame + good components (since Ti frames have been sold out...). I passed on the SRAM simply because it's not Ti. Glad to hear you're thinking of putting a lot of Ti combinations on the site. Can you comment on when the new bikes will hit BD?

Thanks!
Will


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## Lost In OC (Nov 15, 2008)

No one mentioned it, but a big reason to pick Campy, they are rebuildable. I had a bushing come apart in my wife's Dura-Ace shifter. Two reputable bike shops in my area told me I had no choice but to replace the shifter because they couldn't get the part. Let's see, spend $$$ on a new shifter for a $0.25 part. No thanks Shimano, never again!


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

I was really considering going Campy on the next bike, but they've totally lost all sort of common sense. The new 11 speed hoods are horrible! How ugly!


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

not really - it grows on you... 09 campy is by far the most ergonomic of all the gruppos right now IMHO.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

Lost In OC said:


> No one mentioned it, but a big reason to pick Campy, they are rebuildable. I had a bushing come apart in my wife's Dura-Ace shifter. Two reputable bike shops in my area told me I had no choice but to replace the shifter because they couldn't get the part. Let's see, spend $$$ on a new shifter for a $0.25 part. No thanks Shimano, never again!


i thought sram was as well... well at least their mtb gruppos are serviceable..


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

wankski said:


> not really - it grows on you... 09 campy is by far the most ergonomic of all the gruppos right now IMHO.


Because they finally realised the Shimano "bulb" was actually being used, especially by racers.


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

*Shimano DA 7900...until the new Ultegra comes out.*

There are pluses and minuses. The things that stand out the most with the new DA (on my new bike) is the best braking that has ever existed. It really is astonishing. The best front shifting that has ever existed. Shifting the ft is as fast and smooth as most rear shifts. Crank stiffness is subjective and is often more reflective of the frame, but it is fantastically rigid. The shifting in the rear is pretty on par with speed and accuracy as Red (on my other bike). The levers are very ergonomic, have a really nice position on the top of the hoods and I like the underbar routing. But the ease of shifting is not up to Red particularly if you ride in the hooks. They shift well from the hoods, but the Reds definatelty are better here. One issue is that you need to buy the entire group, there is no mixing and matching. You can but you will lose out on the braking and ft shifting which are the best features.
I will have to say I have only ridden campy here and there. I have the upmost respect for them. For me though I need parts that can work with all my bikes, and campy's lack of compatability has prevented me from embracing them.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

function said:


> Because they finally realised the Shimano "bulb" was actually being used, especially by racers.


hmm maybe... but the hoods are nothing alike to old (7800) DA or below... i find shimano very unergonomic... its not so much the advertised 'third position' so much; its still too small for that, but the hood itself is very comfortable, and when climbing the little nub no longer stabs u in the palm... no biggie if a small hill, but on a mountain 1hr+ climb straight up, its annoying... the new ones are the best riding the hood from any angle IMO...


zoikz said:


> I will have to say I have only ridden campy here and there. I have the upmost respect for them. For me though I need parts that can work with all my bikes, and campy's lack of compatability has prevented me from embracing them.


agreed. One of the reasons why I am strongly considering rival for my next gruppo.... its so well made and thought out....have to say i'm not a fan of campy's UT... can't wait till bb30 comes out, i don't think UT was campy's best crank design... or maybe i'll just grab a cannondale frame w/ hollowgram cranks and be done with it...


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

function said:


> Because they finally realised the Shimano "bulb" was actually being used, especially by racers.



There's no way that little inward nub on the Campy 11 hoods are enough to grab onto. I actually have the older 10-speed Dura-Ace 7800 groupset. The hoods on the old 10 speed DA has the shift cables coming out, so you can actually grab onto the cable part. I just don't see that little Campy nub as having the same effect.

Anyways, I'm quite happy with the shifting of my old 10sp Shimano DA, but I don't like the looks with the cable coming out. I am considering downgrading to the new Shimano Ultegra with the cables routed in, or even the Chorus. In fact, I was really wanting to go Chorus because I read about 11 speeds, but when Campy unveiled the ugliness of the hoods I had to retract. WHY CAMPY?! The grouppo that have always had the best looks now looks like dog crap.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

willhs said:


> Mike, I'll mention that I've been following the site, waiting for a Ti frame + good components (since Ti frames have been sold out...). I passed on the SRAM simply because it's not Ti. Glad to hear you're thinking of putting a lot of Ti combinations on the site. Can you comment on when the new bikes will hit BD?
> 
> Thanks!
> Will


Will

Sorry we are sold out of Ti road {just now getting in Ti 29er ATB and it is about sold out 4 weeks before landing - people seem to want Ti.

New CF Immortals in DA 7900 hitting about June 1 - at about $2800 for full group on complete bike with Mavic, WCS etc - we expect to sell out before they hit

New Ti le Champion Team due in July 25th - full DA 7900 with Mavic, WCS, etc at about $2900 - my guess is they will not last long

New Ultegra spec'd CF and Ti bikes being made as soon as Shimano releases new Ultegra stuff - about July production for August delivery

Sorry for the short stock, our demand is way up and factories are running behind a bit.

Every year, we will try to increase the Ti availability.

thanks


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## willhs (Apr 10, 2009)

Awesome, thank you for the update. Are you putting SRAM on anything new?


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I was able to check out the Campy Record 11 speed groupo at the San Diego Custom Bike Show. I hadn't thought about getting it I saw it in person. Now I want it.

I would consider that group.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Hmm... Campy Athena 11-spd is apparently coming soon... Athena's been gone from the Campy line-up for a _long_ time.

*http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=2080109&postcount=2*

So I forget, it'd probably slot-in between Chorus and Centaur, right?

What would the likely price point be for something like that vs Shimano's line-up? Ultegra SL-ish, or pretty close?  


_edit_ – hmm, apparently it's $1200 for the group (Ultegra SL territory), and a Fall '09 release. 'Least according to Thien's article and comments under said article:

*http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/blog/first-look-campagnolo-athena-11-speed/#comment-0*

Guess that'll ratchet up the pressure on Shimano and SRAM to bring out 11-spd groups sooner rather than later?
.


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## akatsuki (Aug 12, 2005)

akatsuki said:


> 1. SRAM Rival
> 2. Chorus 11
> 3. Di2 (if it was cheaper)
> 
> ...


Oh, regardless of mixing, ditch the SRAM chain for a KMC one, preferably KMC X10-SL Gold Ti-Nitrate... That chain is the best thing ever made.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

SystemShock said:


> Hmm... Campy Athena 11-spd is apparently coming soon... Athena's been gone from the Campy line-up for a _long_ time.
> 
> 
> Guess that'll ratchet up the pressure on Shimano and SRAM to bring out 11-spd groups sooner rather than later?
> .


Is there any pressure tgo go 11-speed?
Has anyone seen a real improvement from using 11-speed?

I am more than happy to spec 11-speed if people want it
If currency is stable for a few months that would help LOL

I have heard zero about Shimano or Sram even thinking about 11-speed - but who knows


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

willhs said:


> Awesome, thank you for the update. Are you putting SRAM on anything new?



we are for sure going to put RED on a CX bike
and also later this year a Full RED CF bike
Will probably do a Full Rival CF bike too


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Is there any pressure tgo go 11-speed?
> Has anyone seen a real improvement from using 11-speed?
> 
> I am more than happy to spec 11-speed if people want it


Considering that plenty of ppl find even Chorus pricey... yah, Athena 11spd does seem attractive. FIrst time we'd see 11spd at Ultegra-like pricepoints, if what was 'overheard' at the Campy preview event (Athena group for $1200) is accurate. 

Is there a benefit to 11spd? I'd think so. Compact cranks are big now, but a prob that some ppl complain about is 'running out of gears' with them and having to do too much front shifting... seems like the xtra cog could be helpful in reducing that. 

11spd for several hundred less than what it is now does seem like it'd be at least a little 'sexay'. I think the demand for it has been less than what it could be just 'cuz it's so expensive currently. 
.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

_"Is there any pressure tgo go 11-speed?
Has anyone seen a real improvement from using 11-speed?"_

lol. 

I heard this same argument back in... 1991?-ish for 8-speed
then again in 1996 for 9v
then again in 2000 for 10v (on which shimano dragged their feet forever might I add)

so... yeah. For me (a crit racer) it only makes sense to add the extra step - it means that I can now run a 12-21 "straight block" that contains BOTH a 16 and an 18 without any weird leaps, and those are probably 2 of my most important "miracle gears"

so yea, to some degree, 11v is a good thing. but then I've used Campag for many years.

personally I think the "neutral support" argument is a straw man. 99% of the bike races I've done over the past 2 decades (as an amateur II/III/IV which is what 99% of the folks on this forum are) are "wheels in, wheels out". Meaning: if you don't bring a spare set, stick your race # on them and toss 'em in the truck (or the wheel pit), then you're SOL anyhow.

ymmv.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

lonefrontranger said:


> _"Is there any pressure tgo go 11-speed?
> Has anyone seen a real improvement from using 11-speed?"_
> 
> lol.
> ...


you are correct
I heard the same arguement when we got 6-speed
just wondering is there an upper limit

to tell the truth, I thought there would be an internal hub / bb solution to gearing by now [without the weight and performance issues]

But I'll keep my eye on the new Campy and see if there is a way to get 11-spd at a good price. What would be a good price on a CF bike with WCS & Krsimum type level if Record? Chorus?
I really like bikes under $2000 the best. Might be hard to do; but I could give it a try if Euro/USD exchange could hold tight for a few months


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> you are correct
> I heard the same arguement when we got 6-speed
> 
> just wondering is there an upper limit


There is, we're just not there yet.

I understand Shimano had some 14-cog prototype they were fooling around with a couple years back? It'd probably take something like that to end the madness, lol. :lol: ..Or a good CVT. 



> But I'll keep my eye on the new Campy and see if there is a way to get 11-spd at a good price. What would be a good price on a CF bike with WCS & Krsimum type level if Record? Chorus?
> I really like bikes under $2000 the best.


Um... sub-$2K 11-spd, CF, and with all that neat stuff? Sounds _really_ hard to do right now. If you can, wow.  

But Athena bikes in the fall sound really great. Think something reasonablly cool could be done for under $1500 there? :confused5: 
.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

SystemShock said:


> But Athena bikes in the fall sound really great. Think something reasonablly cool could be done for under $1500 there? :confused5:
> .


i concur. Athena/Centaur are the sweet spot for the stuff you're talking about in this thread, if you can get a good exchange rate. otherwise I shouldn't bother. Most people who want a Chorus or Record build want to do their own build and aren't in the market for a complete bike anyhow.

the same might be said for all the upper end component groups (i.e. SRAM Red and D/A). Shimano maybe not so much, but you have to consider the demographics of diminishing returns when you're talking about OEM specs. ferinstance: the BF is a Dura Ace user and Cat II / semipro XC racer and he hasn't bought a "stock" bike off the shelf since he was a freshman in college.

I mean, I just bought a stock Giant Anthem X2, the first OEM stock bike I've bought in a VERY long time, but that's because we are locked into a team deal where we can't special order framesets alone, and I couldn't afford the whole chunk o' change for the X0 right when our deadline hit. the raceface / XT stuff (especially the brakes... shimano hydros... ugh *shudder*) has already gone up on craigslist, and the wheels are next. I basically bought that bike for the frame and will swap out all the parts as I can afford to. many/most other bike racers I know above the Cat IV/V level are this way too.

hopefully this gives you a little insight into thought processes behind the weekend warrior racer demographic. Personally, if I'm going to drop $1500-$2000, it's going to be on the sweetest frame I can get my grubby mitts on. Then I'll build up as I like with parts I choose to spec myself. I realise much of the world (n00bs, starving students, rec riders, dudes on a short spending leash with the Mrs., etc...) doesn't work that way but that's the way a lot of us trench warriors do business.

-- edit: something else I just thought of. People who buy Shimano equipped bikes (and to some degree recently SRAM) are USED to having OEM spec. People who want, and spec Campagnolo do not. Campag users (at least the ones buying anything above maybe a Veloce level) have lived for so long in a non-OEM world that we are accustomed to, nay we actually prefer to, do our own builds anyhow. I think it's to some degree just a different culture.


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## RichBenn (Jun 11, 2008)

One of the other posters hit the nail on the head -- your bikes are viewed as "value" bikes. Most of these posters telling you what groupo to use either build their own or are buying/have a high end bike and are thinking of upgrading.

I am a "value" buyer, and would rather get a built bike rather than building from scratch, if the components match up well. That means probably SRAM Rival or Shimano Ultegra (with a comparable crank, if that reduces the price). I think Dura Ace and Campy belong on better frames. Sure frames made in China/Tawain, but certainly more current (lighter, stiffer, while vertically compliant) design. And I'd say the wheels should be light plus the stem and seatpost better be carbon. That'd make a great value bike in the higher price range! So many people seem to replace these items anyway, in order to get a better bike.

One other possibility, although I don't know the pricing equation, is Ultegra SL. Almost as light as Dura-Ace.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Yeah, Rich and Lone are right... not to diss the BikesDirect guy, but I'd never buy a Dura Ace or SR/Record/Chorus or Red bike off him. That kind of group would go on an a custom steel or titanium or OCLV carbon rig. Name brand, name builder. Unless one is dumb about money, or has so much of it that it doesn't matter.

The kind of bikes you'd get off of BD would be 105 bikes, Ultegra, Athena/Centaur, Rival. The 'good but not ultimate' stuff.
.


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## dekindy (Jul 7, 2006)

I have always had Ultegra because I am a serious recreational cyclist who is cost conscious. Rival would be something I would seriously consider as the newest candidate to displace Ultegra if I were buying new. Although I would not refuse 105's if someone made me a good deal on them.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

SystemShock said:


> Yeah, Rich and Lone are right... not to diss the BikesDirect guy, but I'd never buy a Dura Ace or SR/Record/Chorus or Red bike off him. That kind of group would go on an a custom steel or titanium or OCLV carbon rig. Name brand, name builder. Unless one is dumb about money, or has so much of it that it doesn't matter.
> 
> The kind of bikes you'd get off of BD would be 105 bikes, Ultegra, Athena/Centaur, Rival. The 'good but not ultimate' stuff.
> .


I understand your point, however our DuraAce bikes in CF and Ti always sell out very quick.

I expect the new Immortal Team with full DA 7900 will sell out before it lands. But that maybe due to it being under $3000

I am going to add full Rival and full Red versions and see how they do


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## willhs (Apr 10, 2009)

Any cost/eta for the Rival or Red?


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> I understand your point, however our DuraAce bikes in CF and Ti always sell out very quick.


Hmm... do you just not make a lot of 'em, compared to your midrange bikes?
.


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## calviinh (Apr 25, 2009)

Will you guys ever restock on windsor the hour any time soon?
I'm looking for a white one


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## calviinh (Apr 25, 2009)

Will you guys restock on windsor the hour anytime soon?
You'll have a customer for a white 54cm as soon as you do


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

calviinh said:


> Will you guys ever restock on windsor the hour any time soon?
> I'm looking for a white one



Windsor Hour being made right now; should be in 5 weeks from now
We did just get in the Clockwork
Kilo TT has been sold out but is on the way now - shld be in 2 weeks from now

We have had trouble keeping SS/FG bikes in stock; even though we have ordered thousands

Thanks for your interest


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

willhs said:


> Any cost/eta for the Rival or Red?



I think we can do a Full Rival bike with Mavics on a nice CF frame for under $1500

I think we can do a Full RED bike with high end cockpit, Mavic, and very nice CF frame for under $2000

If we go to Ti - it is of course more than CF

Or we could do bikes with AL frames at very low cost

I think transparancy; so as a general rule
if DB AL is 'base'
then SL DB AL is base+$100
or DB AL w/ CF stays is base+$100
or Full Moncq CF is base+$300
or DB Ti is base+$600

I think most buyers of Rival and Red will want CF

Comments?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> in the case of Sram - probably all bikes shld be full group
> in Shimano lots of people accept and even like FSA cranks, etc


HUh?? Why? SRAM cranks suck! I would rather see a SRAM/ FSA combo and full Shimano. Also SRAM FD are not the best.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

SystemShock said:


> Hmm... do you just not make a lot of 'em, compared to your midrange bikes?
> .


There is a 'curve' on sales of bikes - volume to price
after watching it for several decades I buy along this curve

Sales do change from year to year
but budgets are budgets and customers have them

For the last 5 years our upper end stuff has sold above the curve
middle stuff about as expected
and lower priced - slower than expected
BUT in the last 6 months low end has picked up
However, the upper end has also been strong

It is hard to know; lots of people call themselves experts and say they know
but my guess is - in harder economic times, buyers at all levels want to save money
(ie - DA buyers still want DA - but maybe more inclined to spend $3000 than $6000 for it this year)


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> I think we can do a Full Rival bike with Mavics on a nice CF frame for under $1500
> 
> I think we can do a Full RED bike with high end cockpit, Mavic, and very nice CF frame for under $2000


Those will be hits! I don't like SRAM on the road, but those prices will get bikes flying.

Most buyers here understand that the CF frames on BD are close or as good as most general CF frames. But there is a perception with new buyers of unheard of name frames with TOP level stuff.

On the Moto CF frames, Rival, New Ultegra and Campy Centaur 10/Athena 11 would be perfect specs for these bikes. I think the demo you are shooting for are new ride3rs, budget minded or crit racers needing a raceable bike on the lower end.

Just get quality wheels on these bikes. Stick with Mavic K, NOT Ritchey WCS. Mavic have the look, quality and name to sell.

Those grups will fit and prices will be very, very attractive.
Personally I would never buy a off brand frame like Moto/windsor with DA7900, RED or SR11, just on perception. 

As good as these frames might be, the avg buyer will not see it.

Now someone building a frame and knows about the CF frames, might spec those on their own like a I did (BLUE with Record.)

I also would never buy a complete bike. Unless is the very top model of a brand I REALLY want that gets me SR11, DA7800 or RED cheaper than building it myself. Also only if it comes with TOL CF wheels and I have my won bars/saddle ready to move over as these are preference.


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## 180 (Jan 10, 2009)

I would like to know how many people who are happy with 105 have tried Ultegra or Dura Ace. Or if they are just "satisfied" because they don't want to spend the cash to upgrade. I see a significant difference in them myself. I have Ultegra/Dura Ace componants and am really happy, I'd upgrade to all Dura Ace if I could right now. Never tried the others you guys mentioned but I will get out there and do that. Best way to know what to buy = try.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

180 said:


> I would like to know how many people who are happy with 105 have tried Ultegra or Dura Ace.


I did. I had 105 for a while years ago. Then tired DA and Ulterga. Shifts were faster, smoother and easier. But for the price and budget at the time, 105 was great! If you don't need the lightest or super smooth feel, then 105 is nice. Ultegra is the sweet spot. Same with the new Rival and Campy Centuar 10.


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## jmio (Aug 19, 2008)

+1 for rival, on a CF for under 1500$ with Mavic???? they would be the aksiums right?


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## willib (Apr 26, 2009)

*When will the new CF + SRAM Red be available*

Mike,
What are you thinking in terms of timing of the various bikes you are considering such as CF + SRAM Red?

From my perspective, I'd like to see compact cranks available across the board. We have a lot of hills around here and 50/34 with 12/27 is ideal or at least 12/25


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## akatsuki (Aug 12, 2005)

I was wondering when the Fantoms would come with SRAM Rival? Hell, if the lower level ones came mixed, that would be fine - cyclocross buyers are less into the whole single group marketing nonsense.

Also, if you can sell an Ultegra SL bike for $800, why won't there be a similar SRAM Rival bike?


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

Why not a full top to bottom 20 sp 105 setup? I have been waiting for one of those for awhile. Seems the majority of 105 stuff you carry is paired with a triple tiagra front. bleh.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

jmio said:


> +1 for rival, on a CF for under 1500$ with Mavic???? they would be the aksiums right?


Correct
I am thinking a bike like this:
With Full Rival Group at $1495










not sure of colors yet

white/red
white/yellow
white/blue
white/gray
black/red
etc

but specs like this bike - except Full Rival Group


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

willib said:


> Mike,
> What are you thinking in terms of timing of the various bikes you are considering such as CF + SRAM Red?
> 
> From my perspective, I'd like to see compact cranks available across the board. We have a lot of hills around here and 50/34 with 12/27 is ideal or at least 12/25



I think there is a new 12-28 we will use

I am thinking timing will be about October - then all new 2010 bikes come out

Will be a Full Rival at $1495 and a Full Red at $1995


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

akatsuki said:


> I was wondering when the Fantoms would come with SRAM Rival? Hell, if the lower level ones came mixed, that would be fine - cyclocross buyers are less into the whole single group marketing nonsense.
> 
> Also, if you can sell an Ultegra SL bike for $800, why won't there be a similar SRAM Rival bike?



We are putting Red on Fantom Cross Pro later this season

We will put Rival on Fantom Cross late this year - early 2010

We can sell a Rival bike like a Knight for $795 - reduced group, all aluminum frame

Would that be good?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

culdeus said:


> Why not a full top to bottom 20 sp 105 setup? I have been waiting for one of those for awhile. Seems the majority of 105 stuff you carry is paired with a triple tiagra front. bleh.


Judgement call be the industry
Most buyers for doubles want Ultegra level
Our bikes with double - like Kalkirk are lower priced than most 105 anyway - at $895
Everytime we do a double under $700 - it does not sell well


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## jmio (Aug 19, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Correct
> I am thinking a bike like this:
> With Full Rival Group at $1495
> 
> ...



I'm a fan of the black/red and white red


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Judgement call be the industry
> Most buyers for doubles want Ultegra level
> Our bikes with double - like Kalkirk are lower priced than most 105 anyway - at $895
> Everytime we do a double under $700 - it does not sell well


Do those 105 triple tiagra bikes sell? I can't imagine exactly the market for that. I mean that's to me the "hybrid/touring" setup and those guys would want flat bars. 

A full 105 bike for JRA would be nice, and nobody really carries that for some reason.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

culdeus said:


> Do those 105 triple tiagra bikes sell? I can't imagine exactly the market for that. I mean that's to me the "hybrid/touring" setup and those guys would want flat bars.
> 
> A full 105 bike for JRA would be nice, and nobody really carries that for some reason.


Yes
Windsor Fens is one of our top sellers
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/fens_IX.htm

we sell out of this bike everytime we get it in


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## akatsuki (Aug 12, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> We are putting Red on Fantom Cross Pro later this season
> 
> We will put Rival on Fantom Cross late this year - early 2010
> 
> ...


The day you put up a Fantom Cross Rival is the day I put an order down (assuming you don't put it in some nasty color (silver of Pro would be sweet).

Not sure whether Red is ever needed on a cross bike, since they get trashed pretty bad, but I guess some people would want it.

Are you guys switching to BB30 soon?


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

Does anyone know if the new Campy 11 sp front shifters allow trimming?


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## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

+1 Rival full and reduced groups. Compact cranks and 11-27 cassettes. I think that most people considering the Red group will not want a Motobecane frame unless it is titanium. Consider Flit wheelsets to offer lighter wheels at affordable prices.


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## wsrobert (Aug 24, 2008)

Just ordered the 09 rival group on my Izoard. The price to performance seems to be unparalleled in the market right now. I only spent a short ride on SRAM and ordered the rival group without even trying it out. I guess I was just that confident in all the positive reviews floating around. Although, I must say, I really have no qualms with Shimano as I was on 105 before this and had no issues. I just feel that SRAM is one step ahead of everyone else technologically.


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## willhs (Apr 10, 2009)

I definitely know some people new to cycling who would jump immediately on a $795 reduced Rival. And, Flit wheels would be an excellent, lightweight option.


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## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

Put Rival on the Fantom Outlaw. Oh yeah, baby!


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## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> We are putting Red on Fantom Cross Pro later this season
> 
> We will put Rival on Fantom Cross late this year - early 2010
> 
> ...



All good. It seems that SRAM Rival is the cyclocross group to go with based upon price, performance and weight. If the price on the full SRAM Red group Fantom Cross Pro would be the same as the Ultegra group version, that would be a screaming "BUY".


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## Poppadaddio (Apr 15, 2007)

*Just one word:*

Shimano

I like just about everything they make.

I've moved up from Sora to Ultegra and my next bike will be Dura-Ace.


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## Jerry-rigged (Jul 24, 2009)

I know I am late to the party, but I am in the market, and I have just about setteled on wanting a Rival Ti bike... Still looking for a frame brand. I like the DB prices for Ultegra and DA on their Le Tour Ti, but I want Rival (and a compact crank &11/23)


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Jerry-rigged said:


> I know I am late to the party, but I am in the market, and I have just about setteled on wanting a Rival Ti bike... Still looking for a frame brand. I like the DB prices for Ultegra and DA on their Le Tour Ti, but I want Rival (and a compact crank &11/23)


Good idea

We have a full Rival LeChampionCF going up on site soon
and I have quote on Ti bike spec'd like that
which we will be getting in Dec or Jan
will be $1595 for full Rival with Mavic & Ritchey stuff

More Rival bikes for 2010 - without question; we will stock both Shimano and Sram


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I'd like to see more bikes with compact cranks at the $1000-$1500 price point (Ultegra/105 level), instead of the triples. Just makes for an easier to maintain bike, and somewhat lighter as well.

I'm partial to Shimano, but mainly because of the hood shape- it fits my hand. Rival is definitely looking interesting to me, though.


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## Davo57 (Aug 6, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> We are putting Red on Fantom Cross Pro later this season
> 
> We will put Rival on Fantom Cross late this year - early 2010
> 
> ...


I guess I'm a little late in giving my 2 cents worth as well, but I know Mike appreciates any and all input, so:

Ayah, I agree with akatsuki and Don Duende that SRAM Rival and Red would be a good pairing with Fantom Cross and Pro (or even just Rival with the Pro would be great) - especially if you could maintain pricing close to previous models.

When do you think we will see SRAM on your cross bikes - you say "later this season" September? October? I'm holding off buying a new bike until such time. Thanks for caring enough to spend time in the forums and listening to everybody - both the haters and those that just want great bikes at fair prices.

David


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## Jerry-rigged (Jul 24, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> Good idea
> 
> We have a full Rival LeChampionCF going up on site soon
> and I have quote on Ti bike spec'd like that
> ...


Great! That is my buy-time frame, either Christmas, or Birthday (March)


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## aaronis31337 (Apr 7, 2008)

yakky said:


> Amen. FSA makes some nice stuff, but their cranks and BB's are not anywhere near the level of Shimano. Tektro brakes are ok, but again, Shimano are better. Best bang for the buck is 105 for sure. Sram looks like they make some nice stuff but I don't like the double tap




-----------------------------

What I think a lot of people don't understand is that SRAM doesn't make anything that's as low-end as the 105's. Rival is on par with Ultegra. Force = DA7900, and Shimano doesn't make anything as good as the Red or Record 11. 

That being said, I'd go with Rival for my money. It's performance is equal to Red/Force, but weights a bit more. I hear the Rival cranks are actually stiffer than Red and Force too (but once again, they're heavier).


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## aaronis31337 (Apr 7, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Price points
> some people like a reduced group bike at $300 less [Ultegra] or $800 less DA
> example - new Immortal Spirit is $1995 with 7900 reduced group -- Immortal Team is $2795 for full group 7900 -- That is $800 that some customers do not want to spend and they are happy with FSA and cane creek brakes on $1995 version
> 
> ...



---------------------------------------

Mike,

I don't want to sounds like a broken record, but please consider the need for compact cranks too. It's the way of the future!


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## microphage (Sep 21, 2008)

willhs said:


> I definitely know some people new to cycling who would jump immediately on a $795 reduced Rival. And, Flit wheels would be an excellent, lightweight option.


Ditto on this. Since the approx 1k crowd would get more choices than just the Shimano's.
Alum frame, carbon fork, carbon seatpost SRAM rival, decent wheels for under 800. Wow. :thumbsup:


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## dismal (Jul 28, 2009)

Though I might ask here, any plans for a road bike that takes wider tires and isn't so race inspired? I'm thinking something along the lines of a Surly Pacer, Salsa Casseroll, Soma Smoothie ES, speced with 105 / Rival components and some durable wheels and 28 or 32 tires. I'm not sure how big the market for this is, but I think people are moving towards more functional bikes and I for one would be very interested, heh.


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## BlueGrassBlazer (Aug 4, 2009)

culdeus said:


> Do those 105 triple tiagra bikes sell? I can't imagine exactly the market for that. I mean that's to me the "hybrid/touring" setup and those guys would want flat bars.
> 
> A full 105 bike for JRA would be nice, and nobody really carries that for some reason.


Late to the game as well. I don't race so I don't need the fastest shifting out there. My RSX/105 actually works pretty well so a 105 setup would be great. Upgrade some of the components...like some nice wheels...on the Fens and I'd think you have a good seller. 

BikesDirect: I saw a gorgeous Serpens that BD delivered. It was all black with a tan seat and wrap...very nice. Coming out with those again?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

BlueGrassBlazer said:


> BikesDirect: I saw a gorgeous Serpens that BD delivered. It was all black with a tan seat and wrap...very nice. Coming out with those again?


I believe that's a '09 Jamis Aurora Elite, not a Mercier Serpens. Similar, but definitely geared towards the touring/commuting set. Might be another bike for you to look at, if going at race-pace is no longer in your plans.


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## gbhk (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm getting a Campy Gruppo for my new Ti bike and I'm really waffling between Athena and Chorus. Part of me want the Chorus but carbon is somewhat fragile on impact and I'm not a careful guy. Anyone tried the Athena yet?


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

Alaska Mike said:


> I'd like to see more bikes with compact cranks at the $1000-$1500 price point (Ultegra/105 level), instead of the triples. Just makes for an easier to maintain bike, and somewhat lighter as well.


agreed compacts are the rage.


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## BlueGrassBlazer (Aug 4, 2009)

Alaska Mike said:


> I believe that's a '09 Jamis Aurora Elite, not a Mercier Serpens. Similar, but definitely geared towards the touring/commuting set. Might be another bike for you to look at, if going at race-pace is no longer in your plans.


Correct you are....
It was in a Serpens discussion and he was looking hard at them. His picture didn't ID what he got and my screen was too small for my old eyes to discern what it was...I assumed it was the Serpens. 
I'll give it a look. Thanks.


----------

