# Shopping for first road bike!



## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Hello all! This is my first post, so let me introduce myself, I'm 24 year old male, 5'7", 150 lbs who recently started biking again for probably the first time in 10 years. I've been riding my mountain bike, and my fathers old 70's Austro Daimler Ultima to work and around town, and have gotten the urge to get a road bike that fits me well (the AD is too long) and really try to get into the sport, at least for some extended rides, if not a race or maybe a short tour. So for the last week, instead of doing homework or studying (oops!) I've been researching bikes and companies and reading lots of posts on this website.

I recently tried a Bianchi and a Fuji at a LBS, but wasn't impressed. I especially didn't like the Shimmano Sora shifters, and after reading posts here I think it'd be worth the extra money to buy something with at least Tiagra components.

Today I went to the local Cannondale and Giant dealer. I wanted to look at the CAAD9 and Synapse bikes, probably the CAAD9-6 and Synapse-5 because of the upgraded Tiagra vs Sora on the chaper version of each bike. The shop owner steered me away from the Synapse, saying that a guy my age would probably prefer the CAAD9 for the more aggressive geometry. That sounded like good news to me since the CAAD9-6 is $1119 vs $1329 for the Synapse-5.

He also found a Giant TCR Aero 2 in the warehouse that was a couple years old but still new. It was set up w/o aero bars and had regular road bars. I took both out for a couple short rides around the block, and I can sum up the differences like this:

The CAAD9 had a longer reach than the TCR Aero 2, which I think might be better for me since my upper body is longer than my legs. It was a nice ride, I like the look of the frame better. It has cheaper Tiagra components, but the frame is made in the U.S. which is a big plus for me. The shop owner also told me the derailers probably needed to be reset-up before it sold (they weren't working too well IMO), and the brakes were way too loose. The price tag says $1119.

The TCR Aero 2 had a shorter reach, does anyone ever own a frame like this for their first road bike? I don't know if I'm going to get into the sport this frame was designed for, or if it would be as comfortable for me. It does have the nicer 105 components, and shifted much smoother than the CAAD9-6, which may not have been set up right. The real benefit to this bike is it's age. The owner said he'd sell it to me for $995 which is the best deal I've found yet, especially with the 105 group.

I also asked the dealer how he fits bikes to people, and he said he basically just watches them ride and makes adjustments, sometimes he puts them on a stationary bike and makes tunings from there. From what I've been reading, the fit is the most important part, and I don't know if his style is really exact enough, does anyone have any thoughts? He set the seat height too low on the Giant at first till I said something.

I really don't want to spend more than $1300, and I haven't really tallied up the cost of everything else I'd need like a computer, shorts, a good helmet, etc.

So I'm asking for any input anyone might have, I'd be very interested to hear it!

Thanks in advance,

Sam


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## crispy010 (Jan 26, 2009)

Make sure the bike you buy has normal drop road bars and not time trial bars. 

The CAAD 9 is a decent bike. I would recommend it over the TT-specific frame because the geometry will be slightly different. The CAAD looks moderately over priced to me if it's got Tiagra. See if you can talk him down, or get him to throw in a helmet, shoes, etc with the bike.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Go find another bike shop. Seriously. First, the guy steers you away from a bike you express interest in (why, doesn't he have one?), then he pulls out a two year old 'new' bike that clearly doesn't suite your needs. But all that pales in comparison to the 'cursory fit' (yes, that's what it's called) that he described to you. 

Given your stated uses, I think the Synapse would be a good choice for extended rides because of its slightly relaxed geo. It would be ok for racing, but the CAAD9 might have an edge there. Depends on where you r priorities are. Both would be ok for short tours as well. If possible, take a look the Specialized Allez. 

IMO you're smart to make Tiagra the group of choice in your price range. The shifters alone are far superior to the Sora's.

Last but not least (as you mentioned) fit matters most, so find a bike shop with a knowledgeable fitter and buy the bike that fits and feels the best. And don't buy based on price alone, because a bargain isn't a bargain if the bike doesn't get used.


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## stevenpock (Nov 23, 2008)

The CAAD9 is definitely overpriced. If I remember correctly, which I think I do, the shop here that sells them was asking 950, 1050, and 1200 for the 7, 6, and 5, respectively. And this is a shop that often has 10% off sales, including new bikes. If they (not a huge shop) can part with a CAAD9 6 for 950 bucks (assuming you go during a sale), then I think he can come down on his price.

If he didn't even give the bike a quick tune-up to make sure the deraillers were working, I think you should at least take a look elsewhere. Everywhere I went while shopping for a bike did at least that.


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## zriggle (Apr 16, 2008)

It would behoove you greatly to look at PedalForce's group buys. Not sure if they have one right now, but recently you could've gotten a carbon frame + fork + Force gruppo for $1200.00. They had another one in January with a BB30 frame that had the $800 FSA BB30 crankset as an add-on for $300 if you bought the frame.

For a first bike, there is no reason *not* to buy used or from a smaller-name manufaturer. (See: PedalForce, Neuvation, Fetish Cycles, Blue Cycles).


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## Xanlact (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't want to start a new thread just to say this but...

I'm also looking to buy my first road bike...and it is just giving me a headache. lol


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Xanlact said:


> I don't want to start a new thread just to say this but...
> 
> I'm also looking to buy my first road bike...and it is just giving me a headache. lol


Oh, go ahead and start a new thread. They're free!! :thumbsup:


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Thanks for all the replys guys, I couldn't have wished for better responses.

I went to another local bike shop today, and the guy who specializes in road bikes was out for the day, but they say he has a full "kit-fit" set up and takes all the measurements and all that good stuff. The down side is that they only sell Trek bikes, and they can get Gary Fisher, but they don't have any in stock. The Gary Fisher entry model is $950 and has full Tiagra components, but with him not having any in stock, its a hard bet to take a gamble and buy a bike like that.

Anyway, I gotta get to work, I'll check back later.


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## tystevens (Jul 10, 2008)

I've been very happy with my Jamis Ventura, which I bought last July for $950. I got the Race model -- 105 components, carbon monostay and fork, weighs under 20 lbs. I think the msrp was higher (their website shows $1300 for an '09 on that model), but they made me a deal. The bike has gotten great reviews from national magazines over the last couple of years as far as bang for the buck, for what that is worth. I've put about 1500 miles on it w/ no problems at all.

Keep in mind that if you don't have much, you'll spend a lot more on gear than you think you will. Of course, you can spread it out over a year or two, but it gets expensive.


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## Xenicore (Apr 22, 2009)

Not to hijack the thread, but I too am new to road biking and am in the market for a solid entry level bike. Because costs are a consideration, I'm going to purchase online from bikesdirect.com. (Or another site?) I understand the controversy some people see in this, but I'm a fix-it kinda person and have many friends who bike who will gladly help me with assembly and fitting. And I refuse to pay inflated LBS prices.

Anyway, to the point: I'm considering these two options...

1. Windsor Wellington 2.0
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/wellington2_IX.htm

2. DawesLightning1500
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/dawes/lt1500.htm

Now, my issues are as follows: I was sized as a 56 on a trek bike at the local LBS. Dawes has a kind of wonky sizing system. I am on the border, being 5'9.5'' with an inseam of 32"--long legs, short torso.
Question 1: Which bike would you go with? Is the step up in price for the lt5000 worth it in terms of investment?
Question 2: Would the Wellington 2.0 be sufficient for spring/summer/parts of fall biking 2-3 times a week? I live in MN and biking weather is limited to say the least.
Question 3: What size would you choose if you were in my position (for the dawes lt5000)?

Thanks in advance to anyone who has any insight to offer--this forum has been a wealth of information for me and I plan on participating more actively when I start to get into cycling.

Sean.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Sean, for what it's worth, I'm 5'7" and all the LBS' I have been to have been putting my on 52 - 54 cm frames. A 56 cm might be fine, but maybe you'd want to go a little larger. A trip to a LBS just to see what fits might help, but you have to take the differences in geometry of the bikes you are comparing into consideration. A 56 cm might be right with one model, while it may be too small with a different model.

Also, I would highly recommend checking out a bike with Sora shifters at a store before you order a bike with them. I hate them, you can't shift in both directions from the drops unless your thumbs are about 6" long...

About ordering online, I have considered it, but I just want to get it right the first time, and I want to find a LBS that will work with me on fit and will treat me right. On that note, I recently visited a shop that I really like. The bike I'm interested in is the Scott Speedster S40, which has full Tiagra components, and the salesman said I could buy one for about $1000, which is about $150 off list I believe, and is the cheapest bike I can find with components I will accept.

The salesman says he doesn't have a proper fit-kit, but that he's been fitting people on bikes for 40 years, and that he's pretty good at it. He says he'll set up an appointment with me to come in before the store opens so he can fit me on his trainer in the shop. A friend of mine whom I work with has been going to this store for a couple of years and has nothing but good things to say, so I'm feeling pretty confident.

Actually, I did see a 2007 Trek Pilot 2.1 with 105 components for $1050 now that I think about it, but it's at a different shop and I haven't been able to come in on days when their road bike guy is in.

Does anyone know anything about the Scott bikes? Do they get a thumbs up or a thumbs down? How about the Trek Pilot 2.1? Are these bikes the same style? Is the Pilot 2.1 the older version of the current 2.1 (probably the 2.3 akshully...), did they just drop "Pilot" from the name?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

poptart-on-rye said:


> Does anyone know anything about the Scott bikes? Do they get a thumbs up or a thumbs down?


Some sources:
A little dated, but some useful info:
http://www.roadbikereview.com/mfr/scott/road-bike/PRD_403944_5668crx.aspx

http://www.buzzillions.com/dz_295231_scott_usa_speedster_s20_cd_reviews

http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-1-383-16780-1,00.html



poptart-on-rye said:


> How about the Trek Pilot 2.1? Are these bikes the same style? Is the Pilot 2.1 the older version of the current 2.1 (probably the 2.3 akshully...), did they just drop "Pilot" from the name?


The Pilot is not the same style as either the S20 or current 2.x series. The geo is more relaxed with (among other things) a longer wheelbase, contributing to slower/ more predictable handling - depending on your perspective. I'm commenting from memory, because for some reason Trek doesn't include geo with their archived bike stats.

I suspect if you like the way the S20 and/ or 2.1 handles, you won't be thrilled with the Pilot. JMO.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Thanks for the replies PJ, they have been very helpful. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the Speedster, but now my dilemma is whether to get the S40 with Tiagra, or wait to save some more money and get the S30 with 105...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

poptart-on-rye said:


> Thanks for the replies PJ, they have been very helpful. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the Speedster, but now my dilemma is whether to get the S40 with Tiagra, or wait to save some more money and get the S30 with 105...


Those two models are much more alike than they are different. I don't know the difference in price, but IME the upgrade from 9 spd to 10 spd is negligible. I upgraded to 10 spd last year and the biggest difference I saw was that I shifted a little more.  

You mentioned fit in an earlier post (very important), but not a test ride, so make sure you get fitted to the bike and go for a test ride that'll resemble the type(s) of riding you plan on doing. Liking the looks of a bike (no matter the brand/ model) is important, but being comfortable with the fit/ ride/ handling will keep you riding.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

I have taken the frame out for a test ride, the one I was on seemed a little long, but that aside I was very happy with it. Of the bikes I have taken out, a Fuji Newest, a Bianchi, which I can't remember which model it was, the CAAD9 and the Giant TCR Aero 2, I liked the CAAD9 and the Speedster frame the best.

However, my only experience to compare either to is with my old 70's steel road bike which is too big, not much to compare it too. I live in Michigan where it's very flat, I'm never really quite sure to be paying attention to on a test ride, but I do like the feel of the Speedster.

The big difference to me between the Tiagra and the 105 isn't exactly the 9 to 10 speed, but rather the challenges that difference creates. I won't easily be able to upgrade a Tiagra part at a later date with a 105 or nicer part because they aren't compatible, and I'll have to buy several parts at a time to make it work. For example, the 10 speed 105 shifters won't work with the Tiagra 9 speed rear derailer.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

When you say the Speedsters fit 'seemed a bit long', I'm assuming you mean reach (to the bars). If that's the case, work with the LBS to shorten the reach by installing a shorter stem. It's done all the time, so you're not asking for anything special. And IMO a good bike shop does this as part of a pre test ride fit.

One thing to keep in mind. Although you're coming from a too big 70's road bike, that _just feels right_ fit won't escape you, so don't commit to a purchase before you experience it!  There are lots of quality bikes in your price range, one of which is the Specialized Allez, so (JMO) take your time with this. 

On the subject of 9 to 10 speed upgrade, aspects of what you say are true, but with proper maintenance it's going to be years and thousands of miles before you'd need to start replacing components other than chains, and theyll be readily available. I'm not trying to dissuade you from initially going to 10 speed, just offering another side. And IMO the fit issue is more important, so go slow, make the venture fun and make the bike shops earn the sale. :thumbsup:


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Thanks PJ, I'm definitely taking my time. I think I may have found a buyer for my motorcycle (eek!) so my budget may have jumped... if I can part with it that is, haha..

Being that I'm in Michigan, I want to do the DALMAC one day, maybe next year. The ride is ~400 miles over 4-5 days depending on the round you take, do you think that the more race-like geometry could work for a ride like this? I'm still going to look more at other bikes like the Sequoia with more relaxed geometry as well.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

poptart-on-rye said:


> Thanks PJ, I'm definitely taking my time. I think I may have found a buyer for my motorcycle (eek!) so my budget may have jumped... if I can part with it that is, haha..
> 
> Being that I'm in Michigan, I want to do the DALMAC one day, maybe next year. The ride is ~400 miles over 4-5 days depending on the round you take, do you think that the more race-like geometry could work for a ride like this? I'm still going to look more at other bikes like the Sequoia with more relaxed geometry as well.


Just so happens I sold my '99 Honda Magna a couple of months ago. No lie, it had about 1,500 miles on it - my Tarmac OTOH has about 3K on it in just one year!  

The best way I can answer your question re: race like geo is to say if your fitness level allows it, you'll be fine riding for 4-5 days. It's all what you're used to and can tolerate, but the beauty of a drop bar bike is the number of positions to place your hands - important on the types of riding you mentioned. As an aside, I've been riding drop bar bikes since the mid 80's and have always had a moderate saddle to bar drop of about 5-6 CM's. So there's no right or wrong, just what's comfortable for you. 

The Sequoia is another good choice, with more relaxed geo and a taller head tube for a more upright position. Ride a bunch and decide what feels right to you, but make sure they're more than just parking lot rides. Hit the road, put a few miles on each to really get a feel for the handling, and buy the one that you don't want to bring back.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Ugh, finals are almost done, but I had most of the day off, so I hit up a few shops. I took out a really nice Specialized Roubaix, wow what a smooth ride, way too expensive. I took out a Sequoia but it was way too upright for my taste, the Allez Sport was great, I think it's my favorite so far. I went to another shop and took out a Jamis Ventura Race which might be my second favorite ride. Neither of the shops have the bikes I'm interested in my size in stock, but they're ordering a frame so I can try them, awesome! Finally I went back to the dealer with the Scott bike and rode it again, I've decided it's just too aggressive for me. While I want something moderately aggressive, I also want something I'll be comfortable on for a long time and I don't think the Speedster fits the bill.

The Allez felt sturdier, stiffer and seemed to accelerate faster than the Jamis Ventura, but was quite a bit softer than the Scott. This is probably because it had wider tires than the Scott. The Ventura's strengths were it's carbon seat stays for about an identical price to the Allez. The components seem to be about the same, except for the crank, the Specialized has the 105 compact, while the Ventura has FSA Vero compact, is there a big difference there? I think I'm leaning to the Allez, I just don't know which color I like..


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

See? After some test rides you're starting to get in tune with what feels right to you. :thumbsup:

Since both the Allez and Ventura felt good, we can assume fit is at least close and focus on the specs. I took a quick look at both and (FWIW) here's my take on things. The Allez has a Shimano crank, but it's not 105. I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, just clarifying for you. I do think it's a better crank than the FSA on the Ventura. OTOH, the Ventura has a full CF fork, whereas the Allez has a CF fork w/ alloy steerer, so the Ventura might hold a slight edge there. BUT, the Allez's Mavic wheelset (IMO) holds an edge over the formula's on the Ventura. 

You mentioned the CF stays on the Ventura, so I will just offer my experiences with them. Frankly, I don't see where they add anything to the ride and I put them in a 'materials mix' category. That being a possibility of bonding failures somewhere (as in years) down the road. I don't want to come off as being critical of the Ventura, because I happen to think you're looking at two quality bikes here, but I wanted to give you all sides to think about.

Bottom line, though. As long as both fit and you enjoy riding them, you can't make a wrong or bad choice. If you're on the fence test ride both again, then decide.


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## lucer0 (Apr 13, 2007)

Xenicore - test ride a bunch of bikes, figure out which ones fit you well, and then look at the top tube lengths on their geometry charts. That's the most important measurement, and the one that you can shop online using.


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## Mr_Sammich (May 3, 2009)

FWIW, a little late to the party here, but I just purchased the Cannondale Synapse 5 - Aluminum. It's my first official road bike and in the 30 or so miles I've had a chance to ride it I love it. I chose it over the 7 because of the upgrade to the 105's and it still was in my "budget". It fits me great (58), I'm 5'11 210lbs at the moment. I got it for $1,250 (in Michigan as well). Anyway, my 2 cents.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Better late than never, Mr Sammich. I have been thinking about shopping out of town; I think all of my local dealers have a pact to sell at retail, at least the ones who carry bikes I'm interested in. Unfortunately with gas as expensive as it is, it probably wouldn't be worth saving $100 to $200 to drive to get a bike, taking into consideration the other times I'd have to drive to get adjustments made during the usual "free adjustment" period.

PJ, that is exactly what I was thinking about the carbon seat stays. It did seem to be a softer ride but that may not have been because of the carbon stays. Jamis does have a lifetime warranty for the frame, but the lifetime of the frame is probably declared over when it falls apart, if these warranties are anything like cell phone warranties...

I'm definitely going to ride them both again, maybe even a Cannondale again too.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

poptart-on-rye said:


> PJ, that is exactly what I was thinking about the carbon seat stays. It did seem to be a softer ride but that may not have been because of the carbon stays. Jamis does have a lifetime warranty for the frame, but the lifetime of the frame is probably declared over when it falls apart, if these warranties are anything like cell phone warranties...
> 
> I'm definitely going to ride them both again, maybe even a Cannondale again too.


Something as simple as 10 PSI less pressure in the tires could give a softer ride, so yes, there are a number of reasons that the Ventura felt the way it did. On that very subject, make sure the LBS's prep all the bikes prior to your test rides, including tire pressures. It'll even the playing field, so to speak.

Good luck, trust your gut, and keep us posted on your experiences. :thumbsup:


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## Xanlact (Apr 22, 2009)

Since you posted this about when I started...I'll add my update.

I ended up purchasing a CAAD9 6, switching out the double for a compact crankset my LBS had on hand. It is my first bike and I have my first chain slip, first falling down event, and first really fast downhill out of the way...so I'm golden. lol 
This being my first bike, I was content with Tiagra, though the crankset is a Truvativ Elita now. I figure I'll run it into the ground and buy an upgrade instead of upgrading this bike down the line. 
I only test rode Treks and Cdales...the Spec/Giant dealer turned me off and I never rode those, but definitely wait until you feel comfortable. The CAAD9 was so good, it hardly needed adjustment aside from a different stem.
Also, I"m 5'11'' and ride a 54. So...definitely be sure to always go through the fitting. Most folk pegged me for a 56, including the LBS owner, but we're all shaped a little oddly. hehe


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

I might go back and ride the CAAD9 again, I really want to like it, and maybe I do. But I'm having the opposite experience than you are, the Cannondale dealer is turning me off.


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## Xanlact (Apr 22, 2009)

Well, that's important too, imo. That dealer may become your regular bike shop and if they aren't at selling you the most important thing, they may not be good for the rest.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Brief update.

I'm up at my mother's place on Lake Huron now that this semester is over (finally!) A friend of mine lent me his Felt F85 that is a few years old, with Sora group and an aluminum fork. I just took it for a 28 mile ride and I really liked it, it was a bit too big for me though, 56cm but it has a short stem. I averaged 17.7 mph which seemed better than I expected considering I had a decent cross wind most of the way back.

I'm going to stop at a couple of dealers on my way back home, one who does professional fittings by appointment, but they cost $200, but he's also the nearest Felt dealer to me.

edit: I can't spell.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

poptart-on-rye said:


> Brief update.
> 
> I'm up at my mother's place on Lake Huron now that this semester is over (finally!) A friend of mine lent me his Felt F85 that is a few years old, with Sora group and an aluminum fork. I just took it for a 28 mile ride and I really liked it, it was a bit too big for me though, 56cm but it has a short stem. I averaged 17.7 mph which seemed better than I expected considering I had a decent cross wind most of the way back.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I'm following where you're going with this. Are you thinking of purchasing the Felt if it can be _made_ to fit? If so, IMO it's not the best option, because from what you've offered, you're starting with a bike that's not your size (don't confuse sizing w/ fitting). JMO.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

No, when my friend heard I was looking at a new bike he offered to let me borrow his while I'm up north on vacation. I'm not planning on buying his bike, just trying the brand.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

poptart-on-rye said:


> No, when my friend heard I was looking at a new bike he offered to let me borrow his while I'm up north on vacation. I'm not planning on buying his bike, just trying the brand.


Good.  

Felt are very nice bikes. For sure check them out. Any particular model you're looking at? The F85 like your friends?


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Yeah, the F85 comes with 105 components and a carbon fork / seat post, pretty standard in it's price class, $1250 which puts it right in line with the Allez Sport and Ventura Race. I liked the ride. It may have been slightly less stiff than the Allez but it has been a few days since I rode that bike. It's also several years old so I'll have to check out the new one when I stop by that shop on Wednesday.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

I was really impressed with the Felt dealer yesterday, they also sell Scott Guru and Seven.

The owner is a professional bike fitter. His approach is to get the rider set perfectly on the fit kit, then find the best matching frame to that fit, rather than fitting the bike to the rider. It costs $200, but you get half of it back if you buy a bike from his store, and he'll give me the measurement sheet so I can check out other brands if none of the ones he sells work for me.

Being a kinesiology major, I'm really interested in this sort of thing in general, so I went ahead and set up an appointment to do a professional 2 hour fitting on Tuesday!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

poptart-on-rye said:


> I was really impressed with the Felt dealer yesterday, they also sell Scott Guru and Seven.
> 
> The owner is a professional bike fitter. His approach is to get the rider set perfectly on the fit kit, then find the best matching frame to that fit, rather than fitting the bike to the rider. It costs $200, but you get half of it back if you buy a bike from his store, and he'll give me the measurement sheet so I can check out other brands if none of the ones he sells work for me.
> 
> Being a kinesiology major, I'm really interested in this sort of thing in general, so I went ahead and set up an appointment to do a professional 2 hour fitting on Tuesday!


Ah, you've moved into the big league now!! And considering your major, maybe you and the fitter can compare notes during the fitting! :thumbsup: 

All kidding aside, IMO you're doing this exactly right. I wouldn't necessarily feel pressured to get a bike from him (and conversely, wouldn't rule it out) because the important thing is that you're going to know pretty well what geo is going to work for you and what isn't. Most people don't require custom geo (such as what Seven offers), and some do, so odds are you'll do fine with a stock frame, but _knowing_ still beats guessing.

Seven's are beautiful (and expensive), Guru's I'm not so familiar with (I think I've seen two in my life) and Scott's/ Felts are good as well. No bad choices here.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

*Some questions after the fitting...*

So, I got lost on the way to the shop! When I finally get my bearing and start heading in the right direction, I'm about 20 minutes away from the store, and 20 minutes late for my appointment with the fitter. So I call in to let them know I'm still coming and it turns out the fit guy is absent with a family emergency. I'm already an hour and a half down the road from home! Luckily, he makes it a little later and we end up doing the fit.

As he's doing the adjustments for the bars he sets me up with a 4cm drop from saddle to handle bar. Anything lower was causing my knees to come out of a straight line. Later I realize that my right knee hurts with a neutral foot position, and is pulling against the float on the cleat. I need to rotate the cleat on my shoe out pretty far in order to bring the float in line with the angle my foot wants to sit at. My heel ends up pretty close to the crank. We didn't test the bar drop again after the cleat adjustment, and I didn't think to ask if that could have been causing my knees to come out of line, thus resulting in a different saddle to handle bar drop. FWIW my legs were coming pretty close to touching my chest in the drops, and they did when it got much lower.

He says that F series and similar geometry bikes wouldn't easily adjust to such a short drop of 4cm. if I wanted to go with a F series he could probably make it work with a 54cm frame and a shorter than stock stem, but recommends the Z and similar geometry. On the Z series bikes he says he would put a longer than stock stem on a 51cm bike. Does that make sense?

I don't like the look of the Z frame, the color of the one in my price/component range (Z80) or the triple crank.

How likely is it that I'll want a lower bar as I get more in to riding? The fitter says people's fit's usually don't change over time. Is this so? Maybe I need to deal with it and forget the aesthetics?

To top it all off when I come home I realize out awesome Michigan roads have finally taken their toll on my car's suspension which now creaks every time it moves :cryin:


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm not sure I followed everything exactly, but I came away with the distinct impression that you should walk away from the Felt F series. FWIW, I had a similar experience when I was testing out an F3. Sure, you can always _make_ a bike fit, but that's not how it should work.

In an earlier post you mentioned test riding the Allez and it was your favorite, with your second favorite being the Jamis Ventura. Those two examples, pretty much off the shelf as we say, fit you fairly well as I recall. And if they didn't, you'd have known it and mentioned it like you did the Felt.

Regarding the Z series, if you don't like them, don't try to like them. Yes, fit is important, but so are aesthetics and there are lots of other choices out there that will accomodate you in both fit and aesthetics, so don't settle.

To answer your questions, for most riders, fit does change/ evolve over time, but you can't be sure of just how or when that'll occur. Maybe you'll want more drop - maybe you won't. Maybe you'll want to be a little more stretched out and adjust the stem length accordingly, or maybe not. Besides which, riding the F series until that _may_ happen, sounds like a painful prospect.

IMO, you should revisit the shops with the Allez and Ventura, get refitted to them and test ride both (ideally under conditions that closely resemble the type of riding you'll do) and see what you think on the second go round. It might just become clearer to you after those second rides.

Thoughts/ comments?


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Thanks for the quick response PJ!

Only one of the shops so far has gotten my size in stock, and that's the Jamis, and it did feel pretty good. However, although money isn't the only concern, I'm generally pointing more in the direction of the Felt or Scott bikes from the fitter's store since I get $100 off a bike if I buy from them now.

Probably the simplest way to sum up my dilemma is this: my first complaint with every bike that I've tried, which have mostly been 54 or 56cm, has been that the bars are too tall and too far away. Too far away I understand because the frame is too big, but I don't understand how the fit came out with a tall handle bar if my first impression is generally to want the bar lower than normal on a stock bike. The Allez and Ventura are more like the F if I'm correct.

I'm thinking that the fit could have been incorrect because the issue of my knees being out of line may not have been from the depth of the bar, but rather the misalignment of my foot to the pedal. A low hand position in the drops coupled with a misaligned cleat was exacerbating the problem of my right knee straying from center, which was a problem present even when I was riding on the hoods at any position until the cleat was corrected. My power output was also much higher from my left leg until the cleat was moved and then the output evened out, but that didn't happen until after he set and decided all the geometry.

In any case I'm going to think on it for a while and probably send the fitter an email or call him later this week to see what his thoughts are.

Thanks again, PJ!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I anticipated your not wanting to walk away from the $100 you've got invested in that bike shop. I don't blame you, but along the way keep in mind the investment you're ultimately going to make in this venture and what percentage of that the $100 represents. The bike you ultimately purchase should feel the best of any, regardless of where it's sold. 

Your second paragraph explaining your dilemma isn't at all surprising. As frame size increases, so do all of the associated dimensions on the bike. As you mentioned, reach increased (because the TT lengthens proportionatly) but so does the HT length, which makes you feel like the bars are higher. The terms for what we're referring to are frame stack and frame reach, and they both increase with frame size.

I don't think I realized till now that you were testing bikes that weren't your size. My advice to you is.... don't do that. It makes no sense and you'll learn nothing from it, except maybe that the bike won't handle very well and won't instill confidence.

Lastly, IME cleat placement is tricky. Both times I've changed shoes and had to install my cleats, I went on 5-6 rides (adjusting after each ride) until they felt right and my knees didn't bother me. It never affected my pedal stroke as it seems to have done with you, but we're all different.

Oh, and good luck with that car!!


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

I started breaking down geometries today. My fitting had the following results, which seem to be the most significant in determining the proper frame, the rest seems to be a setting off of the following.

Seat Tube angle = 73.5 degrees
Head Tube angle = 72 degrees
Crank Arm Length = 172.5 mm
Stack = 61.4
Reach = 45.3

I can't really figure out how to calculate the stack and reach of different framse, it seems like every page I can find has a different equation, and each manufacturer takes their measurements differently.

As far as the other measurements, all of the bikes have different angles and crank lengths except for the Jamis Ventura, which matches my measurements perfectly. It does have a shorter HT than the Z series however, but it does have a lot of spacers under the stem, which would probably put the height about right, and allow me plenty of room if I decided to drop the bars at a later date. Am I making sense? If I understand right, stack and reach is the most important measurement, am I just going to have to take a level and tape measure with me to stores to figure it out?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

At the risk of you thinking I'm changing the rules in the middle of the game, it's now time to tell you that, at some point, crunching the numbers is going to get you little more than a headache.

I'm not being critical at all because you've clearly got a handle on how geo plays a part in fit, but you are right that there are no standards as far as measurements, thus frame sizes. That lack of standards makes comparing reach/ stack across brands/ models/ sizes, near pointless.

You weren't far off when you said you'd take a tape measure (preferably metric) to the bike shops. When I was attempting to learn (as you are) I developed a simple approach to determine bar height. Two caveats: You sometimes need the bikes (to measure) because not all manufacturers provide the data you need - and you need a baseline to compare. You might consider using the Ventura for your baseline. BTW, I consistently get within about 3 mm's using this method.

Here's how simple it is. Measure from the bottom of the HT to top of stem. This measurement includes the HT, headset cone, spacers and stem. It works very well on (more or less) standard angled stems. In other words, if you're interested in a bike that has a flipped up stem, I'd suggest measuring the same, except extent the measurement to the top of bars (because of the extended height).

A couple of things regarding your fit: 
I don't know how you're proportioned, but at a height of 5'7" I'm surprised you'd need a 172.5 crank length. I'm wondering if the Felt was equipped with that length.
ST and HT angles are pretty standard for your required frame size, so all that tells you is you don't need custom geo.

Lastly, if you know your saddle height, please post it. 

OK, one more thing. If you really do want to bring a tape measure and level to bike shops to figure out frame stack/ reach, here's a link to a pictoral:
https://trekroad.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/05/2008_trek_new_madone_stack_and_reac.gif


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## dphoenix (Nov 11, 2007)

Jamis = value


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

Saddle height is 69.2cm measured from the BB to top of saddle, measured along the seat tube, not perpendicularly from the ground.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

poptart-on-rye said:


> Saddle height is 69.2cm measured from the BB to top of saddle, measured along the seat tube, not perpendicularly from the ground.


You measured exactly right. For the record, my saddle height is 68.2cm and I use 170mm cranks.


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## poptart-on-rye (Apr 12, 2009)

*After a lot of thought...*

I've made my decision.

The ~$1200 investment I have been considering has been sounding like a larger and larger figure with each passing day. My stomach starts to unsettle every time I think about spending that much money on just bike alone at this point in time. My father ended up wanting me to bring his old bike back to his place since I told him I wasn't going to be using it anymore.

So I took it back to his place, and stared at it in the living room for about 2 hours while I watched TV and browsed the web. Just for shits and giggles, I took measurements off it and realized that it's about my size, 53cm with quite a long top tube of 57cm. I realized that the seat post and seat angle were way out of whack so I adjusted them to the proper measurements and then measured the other dimensions. The handle bars are a little too low, maybe 5-6cm drop, but the distance out to the hoods from the tip of the saddle is actually a little shorter than my fitting's recommended distance. I'm going to ride it for a while, and figure out if I need a taller and shorter/longer stem, but I think I'm going to be satisfied with this bike's fit, especially considering it's a tad cheaper than $1200! I took it for a ride with it reset up and it feels 100% better, and its very very smooth.

It's certainly not a crappy bike either, Austro Daimler Ultima with Reynolds 531 tubing, a full vintage Campagnolo Super Record gruppo, and a nice set of Mavic wheels.

This may seem quite anticlimactic after this long search for a new bike, to end with the one I started with, but I'm completely satisfied with the process I undertook. I learned a lot from the fitting, and I'm sure I will end up with a new bike some day, so the exact measurements I gained won't be put to waste.

PJ, you might be the only one who reads this, but thanks a LOT!! Your insight has helped me tremendously! :thumbsup:


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks for the update. Coincidentally, I was thinking about this thread last night so I drilled down and reread the last couple of posts. You always seemed the analytical type, so I just figured you went off to... well... ponder! 

I think your decision is the right one for you, because it's based on what you've learned, how you felt and in the end, applying that knowledge to your 'new' bike has made you feel more comfortable (physically and mentally) with your choice. 

FWIW, in the span of 25 years of road riding, I've owned three bikes, and one I almost never rode and sold, because I didn't listen to my gut like you have. I was riding 8 and 9 spd bikes with downtube shifters when other were 'upgrading' to STI's, so I never was one to follow trends. Sure, I like bikes, but I like ALL bikes, the bling factor (or lack thereof) doesn't really matter, because they're meant to be ridden.

All that aside, I'm glad I was able to help you make a decision, whatever it may have been. Ride safe and when you're ready ( I mean, _really_ ready) hopefully I'll still be around to kick some more ideas around.


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