# How does the Moots Vamoots compare to Merlin?



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

Hi. I own a 1999 Merlin Road titanium, purchased while Merlin was still in Cambridge, before ABG bought them. I am now reading unanimously positive reviews of the Moots Vamoots road bike. How do the two bikes compare in terms of fit, finish and ride quality?

Is there much of a difference? Both bikes look almost identical in photos, except the decals.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Both very good*

You will get people talking about visual weld quality and such, but both are excellent bikes. BTW, despite the moans from "Merlin Purists" there's no evidence that Merlin quality changed one whit after the move to Litespeed. You should be worried about fit and how the geometry affects the ride qualities you want. The quality of neither frame is in question.


----------



## PsyDoc (Feb 3, 2004)

*Not true...*

Merlin did experience a drop in quality, but has since worked hard to keep quality control related issues high. I have first-hand experience with the drop in Merlin quality during the latter part of 2001 (June thru September). The first Merlin Extralight I ordered came to me with measurements that were different from the ones on their website. Additionally, the
frame had sloppy welds at the dropouts, in that, there was an excess of weldament that made the dropouts looked like they were "crying." I sent that frame back and ordered another one. The second Extralight frame was almost "perfect" and the problem began when I installed the Ultegra BB. The BB threaded in smooth as butter, but I noticed that there was a sizable gap at the top of the BB shell of the frame and the flange of the Ultegra BB. I thought that gap was a bit strange, so I went to look at my other Merlin, which had no gaps whatsoever. I then flipped the frame over to the non-drive side and, sure enough, the Ultegra BB spline was off-center. I backed out the Ultegra BB and the threads were fine; in other words, I did not cross thread the Ultegra BB. I also checked to make sure that the screw that holds the plastic cable guide on the bottom of the BB shell was not hitting the Ultegra BB. As an additional check, I installed the BB in my older Merlin Extralight and it fit like a glove. The end result: the BB shell had not been tapped correctly and the frame was returned. The odd thing is that all this happened on Friday, July 13th. I called Merlin and was informed that this is not the first time since the move from Massachusetts they have had BB shells mistapped, but they thought the problem had been fixed. 

Out of shear loyalty to Merlin and the performance my 1992 Merlin had given me, I decided to give Merlin a third try to the chagrin of those around me. I had to wait for a frame as the 2001's were done and Merlin was gearing up for the 2002 run. Once they were available, I once again placed an order thru Excel Sports. Unbelievably, Excel notified me several days later that there were problems with this 3rd frame as well, which failed their inspection. First, the finish was noticeably uneven. Second, the brushed finish on the seat tube was so deep that you could feel the grooves with your fingernail. Third, at the seat stay/seat tube junction, one of the seat stays was 4mm below the other stay. Although 4mm may not sound like much, the difference was very noticeable according to Excel. Fourth, the frame was out of alignment. At this point, I orded a Seven.


----------



## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Merlin doesn't exist any more. They used to be the best titanium frame maker in the world. Now they are just a brand name for Litespeed, the Walmart of titanium bikes. If you want a frame that has a connection to the real Merlin, then buy an IF or a Seven.

Moots has the attention to craftsmanship that Merlin used to have.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

PsyDoc said:


> Merlin did experience a drop in quality, but has since worked hard to keep quality control related issues high. I have first-hand experience with the drop in Merlin quality during the latter part of 2001 (June thru September). The first Merlin Extralight I ordered came to me with measurements that were different from the ones on their website. Additionally, the
> frame had sloppy welds at the dropouts, in that, there was an excess of weldament that made the dropouts looked like they were "crying." I sent that frame back and ordered another one. The second Extralight frame was almost "perfect" and the problem began when I installed the Ultegra BB. The BB threaded in smooth as butter, but I noticed that there was a sizable gap at the top of the BB shell of the frame and the flange of the Ultegra BB. I thought that gap was a bit strange, so I went to look at my other Merlin, which had no gaps whatsoever. I then flipped the frame over to the non-drive side and, sure enough, the Ultegra BB spline was off-center. I backed out the Ultegra BB and the threads were fine; in other words, I did not cross thread the Ultegra BB. I also checked to make sure that the screw that holds the plastic cable guide on the bottom of the BB shell was not hitting the Ultegra BB. As an additional check, I installed the BB in my older Merlin Extralight and it fit like a glove. The end result: the BB shell had not been tapped correctly and the frame was returned. The odd thing is that all this happened on Friday, July 13th. I called Merlin and was informed that this is not the first time since the move from Massachusetts they have had BB shells mistapped, but they thought the problem had been fixed.
> 
> Out of shear loyalty to Merlin and the performance my 1992 Merlin had given me, I decided to give Merlin a third try to the chagrin of those around me. I had to wait for a frame as the 2001's were done and Merlin was gearing up for the 2002 run. Once they were available, I once again placed an order thru Excel Sports. Unbelievably, Excel notified me several days later that there were problems with this 3rd frame as well, which failed their inspection. First, the finish was noticeably uneven. Second, the brushed finish on the seat tube was so deep that you could feel the grooves with your fingernail. Third, at the seat stay/seat tube junction, one of the seat stays was 4mm below the other stay. Although 4mm may not sound like much, the difference was very noticeable according to Excel. Fourth, the frame was out of alignment. At this point, I orded a Seven.



That is disheartening to hear. I loved my Merlin XL (pre Litespeed) before I lost in in a car-bike accident...wonderful bike. It just screamed quality.


----------



## palewin (Mar 12, 2003)

*Lets not dump Merlin yet!*

The problem with the internet is that everyone has their opinion, and not all are correct. If anyone has doubts about Merlin, they should email Tom Kellogg (www.spectrum-cycles.com), who sells his own Spectrum bikes, and designs for Merlin. Tom builds his own steel Spectrums, but has Merlin build up his titanium bikes (he does the fit & specs, sends the plans to Merlin). When Merlin moved to Tennessee, Tom had to decide whether he would still use Merlin as his ti builder, or switch to Seven (which was started by folks from Merlin). He did some comparisons, worked with both, and concluded that Merlin's quality had not dropped - there were some start-up snafus, but overall he was still satisfied with their quality (and since my 2002 Merlin/Spectrum has around 27,000 miles and two full racing seasons on it, I'm satisfied with Tom's judgment!) Merlin has its own production line and its own welders/builders, it has been kept separate from Litespeed. Hey, Ford owns Aston Martin and Jaguar, and all three brands are quite separate. Same with Litespeed and Merlin. And when McEwen won the TdF sprinter's jersey on a Litespeed, I don't think he confused it with a Walmart bike! Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't trust me, or any other "layman" - if you want to know more about Merlin, contact Tom. That said, I agree with an earlier posting which said that the differences between a Moots and a Merlin will come down to fit and geometry.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Some light in the darkness*

Excellent analysis.


----------

