# How many people actually ride an hour at FTP?



## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

and how many use the .95 of 20 min power? As a non-racer trying to find the right circumstance to get 1 hr effort is proving hard. Outside it seems like course and motivation are a factor. 1 hr of flat with no stops or 1hr of consistent grade climbing doesn't seem easy to find. I tried doing it on a trainer with powertap but gave up around min 35, I believe because of motivation but it also hurt plenty good too. Just curious if anyone actually rides an hour at FTP outside of race conditions and did/do you do it for training or testing purposes?


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## IAmSpecialized (Jul 16, 2008)

First, check out the wattage google group. Great guys and great info for power meter users. http://groups.google.com/group/wattage

Testing is training and training is testing. Taking 95% of a 20 minute effort is usually as HIGH as you want to take and frequently you will find it is overreaching, but it provides an estimate. I miay be going out on a limb here, but a 60 minute TT effort for FTP purposes (assuming this is not a race situation) requires so much concentration and motivation that most of us just can not do it.

Also, do not get hung up on ONE NUMBER. FTP is what you can average over a 60 minute time trial in optimal condition. You will also have days where you can average a bit over that and there will be days you won't be able to reach your FTP. So don't get to wrapped up in finding that ONE NUMBER. Try to find a very accurate estimate that you can base your training on. Your FTP is also self correcting. It wont' take long to figure out if you're using the wrong number. If it is too high you will not be able to complete your workouts. If it is too low you will find yourself feeling like you're not really working as hard as you imagine you should feel.

Now, here's my other two cents. I have been really hung up on that one number myself (I have finally got over that issue). What I did to make me feel really really confident that I was using the right FTP to base training on was this: I did several tests. I organized a group ride with some guys that I know are stronger than me and so I knew the ride would force me to work as hard as humanly possible. It was a 2.5 hour ride which actually give me about 1.25 hours of full blast, no holds barred, need to vomit on the side of the road, intensity. That was on a Sunday. I looked at the file and wrote down the peak 60 minute normalized average. Did active recovery for the next two days and then on the third day I went out by myself for solo testing. I used Hunter Allen's FTP protocol. One of the big things with his protocol is the 5 minute blow out effort must be done FULL GAS, BLOW OUT. Use common sense here, it's a full gas FIVE MINUTE EFFORT. It hurts like a motherf*cker and you will think that it will cripple you to the point you won't be able to do the 20m FTP test, but it actually enables you to do the 20 minute effort much harder. Trust me on this one. Once I got ready to do the 20 minute effort (after 10 minutes recovery from the 5 minute blow out effort) I used my normalized power number from Sunday (which in theory should have been pretty close to FTP b/c I know I worked as hard as I possible could during the Sunday ride with 2 other guys who pushed me to my limits) to pace myself with for the first 5 minutes of the 20 minute FTP protocol. After pacing myself with that number for 5 minutes I stopped looking at my computer and just pushed as hard as I possibly could for the next 15 minutes based on perceived exertion.

Here is what I found. My 20 minute effort AVERAGE power mutiplied by 0.95 was exactly 1 watt difference from my peak 60 minute normalized average from the Sunday ride. Because I also knew for a fact that my 5 minute blow effort during testing was a true BLOW OUT EFFORT (almost couldn't turn my pedals afterwards) I used that average and the 20 minute average together and plugged them in the Critical Power model to see what FTP number it would give me. The way the model works is you do two maximal tests, one of 3-6 minutes and one of 20-30 minutes, on non-consecutive days within a 7-10 day period. The equation is then: (long interval duration * long interval average power) - (short interval duration * short interval average power) divided by (long interval duration - short interval duration) = CP ~ FTP.

Guess what? The CP model put my FTP within 2 watts of the Sunday normalized average and within 1 watt of 95% of the 20 minute effort.

Was all this really necessary? No. But, after it was all done I felt very confident in the number I was using as my FTP. So for people who must feel really good about the number, this is one way to go about doing it.

Sorry for being so long with the reply. Remember, training is testing and testing is training. FTP is self correcting. FTP is self correcting. FTP is self correcting. It won't be long and you will understand exactly what I mean.


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## IAmSpecialized (Jul 16, 2008)

I also forgot to mention there are several schools of thought about differences in power readings on a trainer and on a road. But what you will find very often times is that you will see anywhere between a 30 to 50 watt average difference between trainer and road. There area number of reasons for this. But in my personal opinion I would not use a trainer initially to estimate my FTP.

I've managed to close the gap down to about a 30 watt difference between trainer and road. Initially there was a 45 watt difference for me. Typically higher numbers on road, lower numbers on trainer. I'll let you search the wattage group for a number of discussions on the reasons for this. But it is definitely something that "most" power meter users experience.


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## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow, good info. I'm going to try some of that. 5 minutes all-out, that means perceived effort, you don't try and hold one number, because if you're going all out you'd be weaker towards the end.


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## wetpaint (Oct 12, 2008)

I just use 20min x.95 to get my FTP. The most I'll do for an hour is 90%, it just too painful and I don't have the motivation to actually ride at my FTP for an hour.

For riding indoors, I use two large fans in front of me and my FTP indoors is equal to outdoors, it takes a couple of weeks of riding to get acclimated and fell better riding indoors, but there isn't any gap in power for me.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Do it once. Then do a 20min test a few days later while still fresh. Find the % difference and use it in the future. Never again do another 60min test.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

iliveonnitro said:


> Do it once. Then do a 20min test a few days later while still fresh. Find the % difference and use it in the future. Never again do another 60min test.


every 40km tt is basically a 60m test.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

den bakker said:


> every 40km tt is basically a 60m test.


I better get faster then


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

den bakker said:


> every 40km tt is basically a 60m test.


And thus why this sprinter will not do time trials


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

den bakker said:


> every 40km tt is basically a 60m test.


For some of us it's only a 51 minute test. And there are plenty more for whom it's only a 48 minute test. Just saying...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Sherpa23 said:


> For some of us it's only a 51 minute test. And there are plenty more for whom it's only a 48 minute test. Just saying...


yes you're a stud. you know it we know it. 
Did you miss the word "basically"?


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## Ghost234 (Jun 1, 2010)

Personally I can't ride at threshold for an hour, I can barely do it for 20 minutes. When I do a 40km I typically stay as close to threshold as I can without touching it (I do go slightly over it when I push out the start, make a turn or am climbing up a small/steep hill). My LTHR is 190, but according to my data, when I actually got my heart rate up I averaged 188 BPM over the ride. 

Some people can ride right at threshold, but I can't. I get sick very quickly if I hold it for more than 15 minutes, but luckily I have a naturally high threshold power so it works out well.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Ghost234 said:


> Personally I can't ride at threshold for an hour,


Then your threshold power is less than you think it is.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Threshold definition*



Ghost234 said:


> I get sick very quickly if I hold it for more than 15 minutes, but luckily I have a naturally high threshold power so it works out well.


I think maybe you've determined your threshold HR incorrectly. It is roughly an HR that you can sustain for 20-30 minutes anyway. One standard way of determining it is to ride a 30 minute full out time trial and take your average HR for the last 20 minutes.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

dwgranda said:


> and how many use the .95 of 20 min power? As a non-racer trying to find the right circumstance to get 1 hr effort is proving hard. Outside it seems like course and motivation are a factor. 1 hr of flat with no stops or 1hr of consistent grade climbing doesn't seem easy to find. I tried doing it on a trainer with powertap but gave up around min 35, I believe because of motivation but it also hurt plenty good too. Just curious if anyone actually rides an hour at FTP outside of race conditions and did/do you do it for training or testing purposes?


I find the ratio of threshold power (FTP) to 20-min mean maximal power is more typically in the 90-95% range, sometimes lower, sometimes higher. Everyone is different, and the ratio for an individual can vary with fitness/training.

95% is an atypically high ratio and I wouldn't recommend that as a starting point.

I would often do training efforts of 20-min at threshold, not so much hour long efforts. 

For 60-90 min efforts I might do 90-93% of threshold power. Just had a block of training with 2 per week of these hard tempo/low end threshold efforts. One on road bike, one on TT bike.

I will ride at threshold for longer if racing, especially TTs. Although my regular local TT is < 40-min so I might be a fraction over but there's not a huge difference between what you can do for 40 to 60 minutes.


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## Ghost234 (Jun 1, 2010)

Kerry Irons said:


> I think maybe you've determined your threshold HR incorrectly. It is roughly an HR that you can sustain for 20-30 minutes anyway. One standard way of determining it is to ride a 30 minute full out time trial and take your average HR for the last 20 minutes.



I was not the one that calculated it but a Gatorade's sport science study. It was followed up 2 months later through a Vo2 max test with the same LTHR, but slightly different power number. 


Also it's pretty easy to tell when your body turns anaerobic. For me, my breathing becomes deeper, slower and raspy. I also feel my legs swell a little bit if I stay there for a certain period of time.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

I have trouble finding an uninterrupted stretch of road to do a 20 min. test, so I don't really have a choice. The only way I could do an hour test is limit it to when I take trips to North Carolina. There is a 17 mile climb there where I could do it.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

dwgranda said:


> and how many use the .95 of 20 min power? As a non-racer trying to find the right circumstance to get 1 hr effort is proving hard. Outside it seems like course and motivation are a factor. 1 hr of flat with no stops or 1hr of consistent grade climbing doesn't seem easy to find. I tried doing it on a trainer with powertap but gave up around min 35, I believe because of motivation but it also hurt plenty good too. Just curious if anyone actually rides an hour at FTP outside of race conditions and did/do you do it for training or testing purposes?


I've never done a 60 minute test, but since (I think) you live near me, I'll offer up my route for long intervals: laps on Canada Rd., Palm Circle to the bike path, as many as you need.


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## ghostryder (Dec 28, 2009)

So for the 2x20 session, do you ride at threshold or 90% of threshold?


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## wetpaint (Oct 12, 2008)

How hard depends on how my legs are feeling for the day, I usually do them around 92-95% though


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## ghostryder (Dec 28, 2009)

Ok will give it a try at 95%. I guess i have been taking it easy.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

den bakker said:


> yes you're a stud. you know it we know it.
> Did you miss the word "basically"?



Crap, you're right. Not only did I miss the "basically," but somehow left out "consequently," and "anyways." I must be slipping in my old age. I pledge to do better in 2011.

In all seriousness, Alex is correct in his percentages, as usual, but one of the things that I have found to be the limiting factor in doing a 60 minute "all out" effort is not physical type limits but rather mental ones. It is really hard to keep the needle pegged for 60 minutes.


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## BassNBrew (Aug 4, 2008)

Sherpa23 said:


> Crap, you're right. Not only did I miss the "basically," but somehow left out "consequently," and "anyways." I must be slipping in my old age. I pledge to do better in 2011.
> 
> In all seriousness, Alex is correct in his percentages, as usual, but one of the things that I have found to be the limiting factor in doing a 60 minute "all out" effort is not physical type limits but rather mental ones. *It is really hard to keep the needle pegged for 60 minutes*.


Not for the real studs.


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