# Final Team Assessment



## harlond (May 30, 2005)

With a great TdF concluded, here is my overall team ranking:

1. BMC-Won the overall GC with Cadel, won a stage, and had 2 2nd-place finishes and a 3rd-place finish. They had the strongest rider in the race and they got what they came for.
2T. HTC-Columbia-Won the points jersey with Cav, won 6 stages, and had 2 2nds. They had the strongest sprinter and they got what they came for.
2T. Europcar-Won the stage to Alpe d'Huez, had Voeckler finish 4th on GC, won the young rider competition with Rolland, held the yellow jersey forever. Got more than they could ever have dreamed of.
4. Garmin-Won 4 stages, had Danielson finish top ten, had one 2nd and two 3rds, won the team competition, and held the yellow jersey. Fantastic performance all around.
5. Omega-Pharma-Lotto-Won 3 stages with 3 different riders, held the yellow jersey, and finished 3rd for points and climbing jerseys. Considering they lost van den Broek, they could hardly have done any better.
6. Leopard-Won a stage, took 2nd and 3rd on GC with the Schlecks, had a 2nd and a 3rd, finished 2nd for climbing jersey, 2nd on team competition. Really a very good performance, but short of their own ambitions.
7. Euskaltel-Euskadi-Won the polka-dot jersey, won a stage, had 2 2nds, had Sanchez finish 6th on GC. Is this their best TdF ever?
8. Sky-Won 2 stages and had a 2nd and a 3rd. Pretty terrific recovery from losing Wiggins.
9. Movistar-Won a stage, had 3 3rd places, and finished 2nd for the sprint jersey. For a small team, not bad at all.
10T. Rabobank-Won a stage, had a 2nd. They lost Gesink, but they didn't come away with nothing.
10T Vacasoleil-Top finish was 2nd place, but they had the legend of Johnny Hoogerland.
10T. Saxobank-Had one 2nd, two thirds, finished 5th on GC with Contador. Not exactly what they came for, but Contador certainly exhibited a fighting spirit.
13T. Francais des Jeux-Had one 2nd and one 3rd, but they figured in almost every break, won multiple daily most aggresive rider awards, and Jeremy Roy won the overall most aggressive rider.
13T. Lampre-Had one 2nd, one 3rd, and finished 7th on GC with Cunego. Surprisingly good, albeit somewhat anonymous performance by Cunego. Disappointing tour for Petacchi.
15T. Luiquigas-Finished 8th on GC with Basso. It's something, but maybe not worth skipping the Giro for.
15T. AG2R-Finished 10th on GC with Peraud, 3rd in team competition. Roche disappointed, but Peraud surprised.
16. Cofidis-had one 2nd, finished 2nd in the young rider competion with Taaramae.
17T. Astana-Had one 3rd place. Not much left after Vino exited.
17T. Saur-Sojasun-Finished 3rd in the young rider competition with the thoroughly anonymous Coppel.
17T. Radioshack-Injuries depleted them, and they got into some breaks, but they didn't get anything out of it.
17T. QuickStep-With Boonen out and Chavenal injured in a crash, they were so anonymous I forgot to rank them. Thanks to jorgy for the reminder.:blush2:
22. Katusha-Barely figured, and Kolobnev got busted. Bad all around.


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## serpico7 (Jul 11, 2006)

Good thread idea. Someone else had gone through this exercise midway through, but worthwhile to revisit now that it's all over.


harlond said:


> 15T. Luiquigas-Finished 8th on GC with Basso. It's something, but maybe not worth skipping the Giro for.


Basso was a bit unlucky in that he had that crash during his Tour training. But he's getting on in years and I think his window of opportunity for the Tour is closing, and I don't know if any future team would risk putting all their eggs in the GC basket.


harlond said:


> 17T. Astana-Had one 3rd place. Not much left after Vino exited.


With Vino going into team management, Astana could be interesting going forward, especially if he brings in guys who share his aggressive style. And with Vino involved in their racing tactics, Astana will surely be a combative team.


harlond said:


> 17T. Radioshack-Injuries depleted them, and they got into some breaks, but they didn't get anything out of it.


Even their one uninjured top guy failed to make any impact. Total rebuild time. All that talk of how many GC contenders they had was really pie in the sky thinking. None of those guys is competitive any longer with the likes of Evans, AS or AC.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

99. Quick-Step. I think I saw pictures of Sylvain Chavanel in his French champion's jersey, but it may have been a mirage.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

jorgy said:


> 99. Quick-Step. I think I saw pictures of Sylvain Chavanel in his French champion's jersey, but it may have been a mirage.


 
Not a mirage.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

harlond said:


> Rabobank-Won a stage, had a 2nd. They lost Gesink, but they didn't come away with nothing.


They came away with badass #2. Sewing your nose back on to finish a race.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

spookyload said:


> Not a mirage.


Heh, heh. I was joking!


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Think you did a pretty good job. 

I'm no Frandy fan, but if you put two guys on the final podium, IMHO you should be #2, 3 at worst behind Cav

I'd go - BMC, Frandy, Cav. Car rental

Fun discussion thanks for putting it out there.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

serpico7 said:


> Even their one uninjured top guy failed to make any impact. Total rebuild time. All that talk of how many GC contenders they had was really pie in the sky thinking. None of those guys is competitive any longer with the likes of Evans, AS or AC.


Agreed. Levi is over his prime, needs to stop pretending to be an overall contender, write him off as GC from the get-go. Kloden might still be okay for one week races; same with Brajkovic who is unproven with grand tours. While we didn't get to see Horner race, I can only say it's unlikely he would've been able to keep up in the final two alpine stages this year.


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## Tugboat (Jul 17, 2006)

As an assessment of team performance I'd rank BMC far lower - behind Garmin, Europcar, HTC and Leotard. 

My top 5 teams would be...

1. Leotard
2. HTC
3. Garmin
4. Europcar
5. BMC

I'd also rate FdJ inside the top 10. They might not have won stages but they achieved a lot of TV time which is usually a big aim of the smaller French teams. And Saxo-Bank a lot lower - maybe third or fourth from the bottom. Other than Contador they were really quite pitiful as a team.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

jorgy said:


> 99. Quick-Step. I think I saw pictures of Sylvain Chavanel in his French champion's jersey, but it may have been a mirage.


D'oh! Still, they have to go above Katusha. I'll edit, and thanks.



godot said:


> Think you did a pretty good job.
> 
> I'm no Frandy fan, but if you put two guys on the final podium, IMHO you should be #2, 3 at worst behind Cav
> 
> I'd go - BMC, Frandy, Cav. Car rental


Fair enough, I'm probably overreacting to them falling short of their own ambitions.



Tugboat said:


> As an assessment of team performance I'd rank BMC far lower - behind Garmin, Europcar, HTC and Leotard.
> 
> My top 5 teams would be...
> 
> ...


OK, but the biggest prize by far in the TdF is the GC, BMC aimed at that, and nothing else, and they got it. IMO, if you get the big enchilada, you're the tops. You're right about Saxo-Bank, but like BMC, that team was devoted solely to the GC, and while Contador came up short, he still figured prominently in the race, animated important stages, finished on the podium in multiple stages, that counts for something.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

From _Bicycling_'s website, here is a rundown of teams' winnings:

1. BMC 493,990 euros
2. Leopard 395,310
3. Europcar 147,130
4. Garmin 145,940
5. HTC 104,940
6. Omega Pharma 96,600
7. FDJ 90,660
8. Euskaltel 87,780
9. Saxo Bank 72,290
10. Sky 67,000
11. Movistar 46,660
12. AG2R La Mondiale 45,560
13. Cofidis 41,740
14. Vacansoleil 35,650
15. Lampre 30,100
16. Saur-Sojasun 26,930
17. Rabobank 24,290
18. Liquigas 22,360
19. Quick Step 19,940
20. Katusha 12,380
21. Astana 11,710
22. RadioShack 10,540


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

My top 5:

1) BMC - Wanted yellow, got yellow. The team kept Cadel in a spot to do what he does.
2) Garmin - TTT win, Thor's 2 stages (with Ryder in 3rd for one), Tylers win, Overall Team win with consistant finishes on almost every stage, TD's top 10.
3) Leopard - Frandy on podium. Stage wins, good overall standing. 
4) HTC - Wanted green and got green. Multiple sprint stage wins.
5) Europcar - Yellow for multiple days. Rolland for white jersey. Stage wins. The underdog.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*My top 5*

1) BMC - had a plan. most folks called all the effort they did early a waste of energy. They got Cadel a stage win, a time gap on the Schlecks and kept him out of trouble / crashes and time losses. Oh yeah, they WON THE FREAKIN' TOUR. I'd trust George Hincapie over any cycling critic. Every interview with George "Well we were gonna do hard pace on the final climb, but instead we did it the climb before to reduce the field and thus make it safer for Cadel" Captained 9 TdF victories and counting

2) Euopcar - a 'barely made it' Wild card pic. I wish I knew how to say "To the rest of French Cycling, SUCK IT" in French. Stage victories, Best Young rider, 9 days in Yellow. They gave their sponsor their monies worth and then some

3) HTC - They basically predicted how many stages Cav would win and were spot on. Plus Martin taking the ITT

4) Garmin - won the TTT, got Tyler his 1st, Thor bags 2, many days in yellow, team Victory, having 3 riders cross in the top 10 on one of the most grueling Mtn stages

5) Omega Pharma Lotto - stage 1, Gilbert always in the mix, Greipel getting one. Plus one other Lost their Honch continued to produce

Leopard didn't make my top 5 because they had the most talent and experience, and didn't get it done. They came up short of their goal, why would they be top 5?


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Top 5 in order:

1) BMC - puts all their eggs into one basket and it paid off big, big, time. 

2) Omega Pharma Lotto - Pre-hype Gilbert delivered his results. Greipel won against Cavendish in a true dash for the line for both of them (unlike the Farrar win) . Van Avernt won his stage and stole a lot of TV time PLUS took the stage win on a monstrous climber stage - went overnight from an unknown to being world known. One almost forgets that they lost the key GC rider Van der Broeck and that's what truly makes them at the top!

3) Europcar. Voeckler, yes, but Pierre Rolland showed the world his talent now and into the future. Too many pretenders on stats and paper these days, few are able to replicate Rolland with the actual action on the road.

4) Garmin. But only because of Thor. True, Farrar won a stage but only because Cav was caught out in a skirmish with another rider. Not a true win against Cav, which is what he really wants. Good performance by Tommy D but he's old and already physically past his prime so not much room for future improvement. If Thor leaves next year, the team faces an identity crisis again.

5) HTC - Cavendish, period. 

Consolation prize:

Leopard - Put all their eggs into one basket and failed. Cancellara's overall performance also mediocre; Didn't see him pulling as strong on the climbs as he did last year. Plus usually he had enough saved in the bank to do a decent ITT. Not this time around.

Rabobank. Got a stage win but not much else after Gesink's injury. Still commendable.

Movistar - team has faced monstrous emotional turmoil this season, on top of coming to the tour with no particularly strong GC rider. Soler would've been an entry for the KOM and certainly have animated the mountain stages. Rode what they could. Rojas did a fine job.

Top Losers in descending order:

Radioshack (see prior post)

Katusha - only news we heard was of a rider getting busted and another rider pushing Bert off his bike. Otherwise, they were anonymous. Boy, I bet they were kicking themselves not signing with Menchov.

Astana - team was just too Vino centric. Should've had Allan Davis in to do some sprints.

Quickstep - Chavanel just didn't have the legs this time. Boonen left early but even if he didn't , would anyone have noticed?

Saxobank - failed to deliver, period. Not just Bert, but also his team. Only mostly saw Jesus Hernandez and Chris Sorensen with him at the critical times. Richie Porte was way overhyped.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

moabbiker said:


> Top 5 in order:
> 
> 1) BMC - puts all their eggs into one basket and it paid off big, big, time.
> 
> ...





Gotta disagree with you about Tylers win. The first person across the line wins. We could what if all day long about these sorts of scenarios and it doesn't matter. That's like saying that cadels overall win doesn't count because contador lost to him because he wasn't racing as well. Cav isn't invincible. Greiple beat him fair and square in a sprint and farrar has beaten greipel in plenty of sprints.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Also, the people criticizing bmc's tactics through the race just didn't understand them. George hincapie was practically rolling his eyes to it and saying "you don't think I know how to race the tour de France?" They lined up their classics team with a bunch of steamrollers to barrel through the flats. People were criticizing them for burning up too much energy in the early flat stages but they were just owning the race. Yes, he was alone in the high mountains a lot but he took care of himself up there just fine. What evans' team was able to do that no other team accomplished was that they delivered him safely to the bottom of every major climb. When you look back on it, those early flat stages were exactly when all of the other gc contenders were flying off of cliffs and getting attacked by tigers and wizards and alien warriors and flaming chunks of volcanic debris. Meanwhile, Evans was nestled safely up front being shepherded by his heavy calvary. It was perfect.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Saxo Bank - Watched TdF in Denmark and the consensus is that Saxo fell far short of expectations. Berto was praised for fighting to the end despite bad luck, a bum knee and exhaustion. But the rest of the team, especially Porte and Alberto's imported Spanish riders were roundly dismissed as being of no use to Conti - who was more often then not isolated in the front while the rest of the team seemed to be fighting for last place. This team still has a lot of rebuilding to do after being gutted by the Schlecks.
Leopardo Treksta - Lots of surprise here that Andy couldn't pull it off despite Alberto's bad luck. Widespread agreement that Andy will always be the bridesmaid and never the bride because his time trialing is way under par.
BMC - What is there to say. Cadel rode strong and smart and richly deserves this victory. BMC praised for thier support of Cadel throughout.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

harlond said:


> From _Bicycling_'s website, here is a rundown of teams' winnings:
> 
> 1. BMC 493,990 euros
> 
> 22. RadioShack 10,540


wow, BMC gets $710K and Radioshack $15K. what does it cost to enter the tour, to run a pro program? do you hear that sucking sound? i'm sure RS does...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> wow, BMC gets $710K and Radioshack $15K. what does it cost to enter the tour, to run a pro program? do you hear that sucking sound? i'm sure RS does...


Given the price money is normally given out to the riders as bonus I'm not sure what you mean by sucking sound. It's not like RS will have to match some budget.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

thechriswebb said:


> Also, the people criticizing bmc's tactics through the race just didn't understand them. George hincapie was practically rolling his eyes to it and saying "you don't think I know how to race the tour de France?" They lined up their classics team with a bunch of steamrollers to barrel through the flats. People were criticizing them for burning up too much energy in the early flat stages but they were just owning the race. Yes, he was alone in the high mountains a lot but he took care of himself up there just fine. What evans' team was able to do that no other team accomplished was that they delivered him safely to the bottom of every major climb. When you look back on it, those early flat stages were exactly when all of the other gc contenders were flying off of cliffs and getting attacked by tigers and wizards and alien warriors and flaming chunks of volcanic debris. Meanwhile, Evans was nestled safely up front being shepherded by his heavy calvary. It was perfect.


that's ridiculous. BMC ended up 14th in the team GC, which is a good indication of the strength of a team with a GC contender. Little Europcar was 4th. Moinard was brought on this year to provide support in the mountains but was a huge disappointment. It also made no sense to waste the energy the team did on the middle stages - that's not necessary to protect a team leader. Evans was left isolated a lot - an on form Contador would have beaten him. He rode a great race, but sure would benefit from a Rolland type rider on the team.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

I'll keep this short.

1. BMC. Duh. Thanks to Cadel.
2. Europcar. Thanks to TV Tommy's _dix jours en jaune_, and Rollande's white jersey as a bonus. Suddenly pro-cycling teams look attractive to sponsors again.
3. HTC - Cav in green is a huge story, along with his basket of stage wins. Tony Martin's TT win raises his profile another notch.
4. Garmin, thanks largely to Thor.
5. Euskaltel - plenty of exposure and bagged the KOM with Sanchez despite the worst helmets ever. Including hairnet helmets.

Mentioned in dispatches:
FDJ: lots of plucky, doomed attacks.
Vacansoleil: Hoogerlegend. 

Major losers: 
1. Leopard-Trek. No excuses. Had everything they needed to get yellow in Paris except for TT skills. Andy knows exactly what he has to do next year.
2. RadioWreck.
3. Katwhosha. Putin will have them beaten on the soles of their feet.
4. Astana - disappeared over a cliff with Vino.
5. QuickStep. Could've saved their bus money.
6. SaxoBank - as a team they were atrocious. Conti saved their Tour single-handedly.


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> 1) BMC - had a plan. most folks called all the effort they did early a waste of energy. They got Cadel a stage win, a time gap on the Schlecks and kept him out of trouble / crashes and time losses. Oh yeah, they WON THE FREAKIN' TOUR. I'd trust George Hincapie over any cycling critic. Every interview with George "Well we were gonna do hard pace on the final climb, but instead we did it the climb before to reduce the field and thus make it safer for Cadel" Captained 9 TdF victories and counting
> 
> 2) Euopcar - a 'barely made it' Wild card pic. I wish I knew how to say "To the rest of French Cycling, SUCK IT" in French. Stage victories, Best Young rider, 9 days in Yellow. They gave their sponsor their monies worth and then some


1. Any team that has Hincapie on it immediately gets a tactical boost, IMO. That dude flat out delivers his GC contender to the right spot at the right time, damn near every time. 

2. Europcar had a great tour. For 2012 maybe they can get some better looking kits to replace their Voler semi-custom specials.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

thechriswebb said:


> Also, the people criticizing bmc's tactics through the race just didn't understand them. George hincapie was practically rolling his eyes to it and saying "you don't think I know how to race the tour de France?" They lined up their classics team with a bunch of steamrollers to barrel through the flats. People were criticizing them for burning up too much energy in the early flat stages but they were just owning the race. Yes, he was alone in the high mountains a lot but he took care of himself up there just fine. What evans' team was able to do that no other team accomplished was that they delivered him safely to the bottom of every major climb. When you look back on it, those early flat stages were exactly when all of the other gc contenders were flying off of cliffs and getting attacked by tigers and wizards and alien warriors and flaming chunks of volcanic debris. Meanwhile, Evans was nestled safely up front being shepherded by his heavy calvary. It was perfect.


I agree. In this kind of tour the roleur domestiques were more valuable than the climbing domestiques. Other than the Schleck's successful tag team tactics on stage 18 and Pierre Rolland covering some brief attacks the climbing domestiques barely played a role. 

The top four never lost time in crashes and the BMC roleurs get credit for that by keeping Cadel at the front for the first ten stages. I think Cadel also had a mental advantage knowing he was well protected.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Most improved team from last year?
Sky. They won a couple of stages with Boss Hagen and were very visible all through. Good morale, even after losing Wiggins.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

den bakker said:


> Given the price money is normally given out to the riders as bonus I'm not sure what you mean by sucking sound. It's not like RS will have to match some budget.


my point is that RS invested a good amount ($6million??) in the team this season and the best they can show is $15k. the sucking sound is the talent pool...


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

asciibaron said:


> my point is that RS invested a good amount ($6million??) in the team this season and the best they can show is $15k. the sucking sound is the talent pool...


RS must not seem to mind because didn't they just re-up for two more years of sponsorship?


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Chainstay said:


> I agree. In this kind of tour the roleur domestiques were more valuable than the climbing domestiques. Other than the Schleck's successful tag team tactics on stage 18 and Pierre Rolland covering some brief attacks the climbing domestiques barely played a role.


I don't know, Jelle Vanendert started the race as van den Broek's climbing domestique, and he certainly played a role.

Syvester Szymd played a big role on one stage, as did Jens on another (maybe not a climbing domestique, but if the shoe fits). Not too much of that going on though.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

asciibaron said:


> my point is that RS invested a good amount ($6million??) in the team this season and the best they can show is $15k. the sucking sound is the talent pool...


The sponsors are hoping to boost sales with advertising, not earn a return in prize money.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*disagree*



stevesbike said:


> that's ridiculous. BMC ended up 14th in the team GC, which is a good indication of the strength of a team with a GC contender. Little Europcar was 4th. Moinard was brought on this year to provide support in the mountains but was a huge disappointment. It also made no sense to waste the energy the team did on the middle stages - that's not necessary to protect a team leader. Evans was left isolated a lot - an on form Contador would have beaten him. He rode a great race, but sure would benefit from a Rolland type rider on the team.


Cadel's time cushion pad came at the hands of his roulers with George doing the monster pull that launched him to victory. Had he not held that gap over Frandy he'd have had a harder TT

Cadel had great climbing domestiques, Andy and Frank Schleck

who cares where his team wound up, those guys soft pedaled after their work was done to repeat it another day

it made plenty of sense, Cadel won the Tour.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> that's ridiculous. BMC ended up 14th in the team GC, which is a good indication of the strength of a team with a GC contender. Little Europcar was 4th. Moinard was brought on this year to provide support in the mountains but was a huge disappointment. It also made no sense to waste the energy the team did on the middle stages - that's not necessary to protect a team leader. Evans was left isolated a lot - an on form Contador would have beaten him. He rode a great race, but sure would benefit from a Rolland type rider on the team.


This was a unique tour and a unique strategy won it. The situation you describe where an in better form contador would have beaten him would not have been helped by better climbing domestiques. The strongest man in the mountains was cadel Evans and he took good care of himself in the mountains. In stage 18, when cadel chased down Andy, no climbing domestiques could have chased that down better than Evans. None of the other gc men could either. They were all ready to let it go and seemed to consider it a foregone conclusion that Andy was gone. Honestly, by the time it got to the point that cadel was isolated, it was down to the gc men and their climbing domestiques didn't have much to do with it. The glaring exception is rolland but consider that tommy v isn't as good of a climber as basso/Evans/schlecks/contador. BMC played to their strengths and figured out how to use what they had to their greatest advantage and it worked for them. BMC is a classics team with powerful riders. Before we criticize their tactics too much, we have to consider that many a gc contender lost this race in the flats. Radioshack had three of the best climbers in the race to protect whomever their gc man turned out to be but it didn't matter because they didn't survive the flats. Cadel Evans did and a big part of that was the effort that his team put into the early flat stages that the other gc teams had written off and ignored. 

BMC didn't care about the team classification. That isn't a fair way to evaluate the effectiveness of their strategy. Garmin was targeting the team classification and they pulled that off wonderfully. Their highest placed man was 9th though. There's nothing wrong with that; it was just the result of a different objective. If you want to measure the success of the teams, another way to look at that is their monetary winnings. Consider also that Garmin was the only team that beat BMC in the TTT. BMC rode a superb TTT, which was a team event. 

The first week of this tour was like nothing I've ever seen in regard to the damage wrought upon the gc men during that period. BMC nailed that segment to perfection and it was beautiful. There is obviously more than one way to win the tour and the decision of BMC to not utilize a traditional tactic is not a sign of their team weakness. I was so excited to see a tour that was not won by carrying a gc man far into the mountains to launch extraterrestrial attacks that put 10 minutes into everybody else. This tour was won with downhill attacks, strong tempo riding, and the survival of flat stages that physically destroyed the gc men. Road captain George hincapie is an expert at creating damage in flat stages as evidenced by the break his team caused in the 09 tour, cutting off Garmin in the Paris stage of the same tour, and this tour as well. Andy schleck didn't like it but traditional tactics didnt win this tour. BMC was strongest in the flats and their investment into the mountains was the strongest by merely sending in cadel because he was stronger than everyone else there. This tour was won by strength and the collective strength of BMC was the greatest in this tour. I think the team cohesion and spirit is obvious as well.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I think this version of things is really helped by 20/20 hindsight. Wiggins and Horner were as protected as Evans but were victims of a crash during a random moment of JRA on a wide road. There was nothing more the team could have done to protect them. The numbers of these sorts of crashes varies every year and this year we just happened to see more of them. Last year's early stages were much more dangerous in terms of course, including cobbles and a different set of riders fell early on (including Andy Schleck) with Frank crashing out. I don't think BMC did anything other teams weren't doing in terms of protecting their GC man early on. 

That's not true about stage 18. Contador, for example, had Navarro on the climb and Sorensen put in a monster pull across the valley. If Contador had told him to shut it down, Evans would have lost right there. BMC should have had a rider there. If Contador had better form, he would have attacked Evans on the last climb after making him pull. Evans deserved the victory, but against a stronger field the team would have failed him.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

Wait.

Lampre were in the tour? 

:wink5:


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> I think this version of things is really helped by 20/20 hindsight. Wiggins and Horner were as protected as Evans but were victims of a crash during a random moment of JRA on a wide road. There was nothing more the team could have done to protect them. The numbers of these sorts of crashes varies every year and this year we just happened to see more of them. Last year's early stages were much more dangerous in terms of course, including cobbles and a different set of riders fell early on (including Andy Schleck) with Frank crashing out. I don't think BMC did anything other teams weren't doing in terms of protecting their GC man early on.
> 
> That's not true about stage 18. Contador, for example, had Navarro on the climb and Sorensen put in a monster pull across the valley. If Contador had told him to shut it down, Evans would have lost right there. BMC should have had a rider there. If Contador had better form, he would have attacked Evans on the last climb after making him pull. Evans deserved the victory, but against a stronger field the team would have failed him.



Well, we can what if all day long about what could have or would have happened and say that if Evans were racing against eddy merckx in his prime he would have lost so his win is just a little less of an accomplishment and so forth. BMC worked hard in this tour and one of the factors of Evans' success was keeping safe through the flats and his team effort there counts. Cadel Evans won the Tour de France and his team played a role in that, albeit not so much on the H.C. climbs. That is ok though because Evans didn't need them up there. The tactics chosen by a team are always a gamble. Saying that they were incorrect because they might not have worked in a different situation has little relevance. The tactics chosen by some others that were more traditional didn't work here and were therefore not better than the winning tactic. That is kind of like Andy getting dropped on a downhill attack and complaining that it was somehow not as correct as the tactics he planned to use that didn't work for him. BMC won the tour and we are complaining that their tactics were insufficient? We can say that they wouldn't have worked in a different tour but that doesnt matter. They worked in this one. 

It is funny to me how different people can watch the same race and see the same events so differently.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> I think this version of things is really helped by 20/20 hindsight. Wiggins and Horner were as protected as Evans but were victims of a crash during a random moment of JRA on a wide road. There was nothing more the team could have done to protect them.


thats not what horner said the day before he abandoned, there he mentioned how he had to jump around in the pack trying to find the best wheel to follow.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

thechriswebb said:


> Well, we can what if all day long about what could have or would have happened and say that if Evans were racing against eddy merckx in his prime he would have lost so his win is just a little less of an accomplishment and so forth. BMC worked hard in this tour and one of the factors of Evans' success was keeping safe through the flats and his team effort there counts. Cadel Evans won the Tour de France and his team played a role in that, albeit not so much on the H.C. climbs. That is ok though because Evans didn't need them up there. The tactics chosen by a team are always a gamble. Saying that they were incorrect because they might not have worked in a different situation has little relevance. The tactics chosen by some others that were more traditional didn't work here and were therefore not better than the winning tactic. That is kind of like Andy getting dropped on a downhill attack and complaining that it was somehow not as correct as the tactics he planned to use that didn't work for him. BMC won the tour and we are complaining that their tactics were insufficient? We can say that they wouldn't have worked in a different tour but that doesnt matter. They worked in this one.
> 
> It is funny to me how different people can watch the same race and see the same events so differently.


I agree with you that it worked out - and also that the fun of pro cycling is in part debates about tactics. I'm happy for Evans and glad it worked out for the team.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

thechriswebb said:


> Well, we can what if all day long about what could have or would have happened and say that if Evans were racing against eddy merckx in his prime he would have lost so his win is just a little less of an accomplishment and so forth. BMC worked hard in this tour and one of the factors of Evans' success was keeping safe through the flats and his team effort there counts. Cadel Evans won the Tour de France and his team played a role in that, albeit not so much on the H.C. climbs. That is ok though because Evans didn't need them up there. The tactics chosen by a team are always a gamble. Saying that they were incorrect because they might not have worked in a different situation has little relevance. The tactics chosen by some others that were more traditional didn't work here and were therefore not better than the winning tactic. That is kind of like Andy getting dropped on a downhill attack and complaining that it was somehow not as correct as the tactics he planned to use that didn't work for him. BMC won the tour and we are complaining that their tactics were insufficient? We can say that they wouldn't have worked in a different tour but that doesnt matter. They worked in this one.


Paragraphs. Remember them?


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

qatarbhoy said:


> Paragraphs. Remember them?


Yes, i know what a paragraph is.

I start new paragraphs when I think it is appropriate to do so. 

I can add arbitrary spaces in my paragraphs if they seem too long.

I dont want my posts to be difficult to read.

I'm sorry.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> I agree with you that it worked out - and also that the fun of pro cycling is in part debates about tactics. I'm happy for Evans and glad it worked out for the team.


I enjoy talking about race tactics and enjoy the debates as well, as long as they don't get personal.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

Undecided said:


> The sponsors are hoping to boost sales with advertising, not earn a return in prize money.


Has the chack factored in any race other than the ToC?


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## smartyiak (Sep 28, 2005)

*999th place:*



MattSoutherden said:


> Wait.
> 
> Lampre were in the tour?
> 
> :wink5:


I was going to say that about Saur. Does anybody even know who (or what) they are? Who is on the team? What bikes they ride? What color are their kits? Have they even been mentioned in this thread about Tour teams?

At least Lampre has bright pink that you can see from outer-space.

Yep, the team Lantern Rouge goes to: Saur.

-Smarty


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

culdeus said:


> Has the chack factored in any race other than the ToC?


Tour of the basque country, tour of Switzerland.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

thechriswebb said:


> Tour of the basque country, tour of Switzerland.


Three days of de Panne also. Robbie McEwen just won a stage in the Tour de Wallonie. Kloeden also finished second in Paris-Nice.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

culdeus said:


> Has the chack factored in any race other than the ToC?


Radoshack had actually been having an outstanding season. The tdf was a fluke. Unfortunately, they are an American team and the Tour de France is the only race that the average American person cares about..


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

smartyiak said:


> I was going to say that about Saur. Does anybody even know who (or what) they are? Who is on the team? What bikes they ride? What color are their kits? Have they even been mentioned in this thread about Tour teams?
> 
> At least Lampre has bright pink that you can see from outer-space.
> 
> ...


Very young team, though, and six of their nine had never ridden the Tour.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

*Tuition Time*



thechriswebb said:


> Yes, i know what a paragraph is.
> 
> I start new paragraphs when I think it is appropriate to do so.
> 
> ...


The spaces needn't be arbitrary. Just put one where you change to another aspect (remember TIP-TOP, ie. TIme, Place, TOpic, Person). For example:



> _Well, we can what if all day long about what could have or would have happened and say that if Evans were racing against eddy merckx in his prime he would have lost so his win is just a little less of an accomplishment and so forth.
> 
> BMC worked hard in this tour and one of the factors of Evans' success was keeping safe through the flats and his team effort there counts. Cadel Evans won the Tour de France and his team played a role in that, albeit not so much on the H.C. climbs. That is ok though because Evans didn't need them up there.
> 
> ...


See? It's easy!


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

Moving to the grammar police forum in

5. 4. 3. 2. 1. 

:skep:


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