# Lynskey 420 or 320?



## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

With my motorcycle sold, I'm considering adding a second bicycle. I currently ride a BMC Pro Machine (super bike) but I've always been interested in titanium (since my racing days in the 1980s when someone pulled up on a Litespeed). 

I weigh 185 lbs and ride on some rough roads (frost heaves, etc).

Is the 420 uncomfortably stiff compared to the 320? 


Thanks in advance for feedback on these models.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

What did Lynskey say when you asked them? If you haven't, do. There are experts, and there is everyone else.

Which is to say, they aren't at all interested in selling one over the other - they want you to have the bike you want and will speak well of. Relative to my desires, I've been steered towards a level 2, for example, even though my nature would want to believe that a 3 or 4 would be a 'better' bike.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

I had talked to them and said that either would be good, just depends on how stiff I want the bike and that's why I fielded the question. Anyone with real experience with either?

The 420 seems cool but I don't want Klein circa 1980s stiffness if that is the case.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

I have an R320 and it is plenty stiff although I'm only 157 lbs. With the tube shapes I would think unless you are a sprinter type capable of creating 1200 watts plus than the R320 will work fine for you.


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## DeLuz (Aug 1, 2008)

Why are you limiting yourself to Lynskey?


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Some great deals are available on them.


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## DeLuz (Aug 1, 2008)

Yeah I guess they are trying to eat some business from Litespeed.
I am thinking about Ti and I sort of like Moots compact on paper.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

I've only heard good things about Moots also.


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## Mark Lynskey (Aug 4, 2008)

Describing all the nuances of each frame in relation to what you're looking for in an email format is quite a challenge. The best I can tell you in a few sentences is that the R330 and R430 are very similar in overall performance. The main difference is that the R430 is slightly stiffer at the bb shell and front end. It is a very firm feel (and slightly more firm than the R330) but nowhere close to the Klein. If you're the type of rider that is very rough on equipment and has a history of breaking things I'd lean towards the R430. Otherwise the R330 would be my suggestion.

We're just in the process of introducing the newer versions of these bikes and there are a few changes. We also have a new model you may find interesting called the Helix. It'll be a few weeks before we turn on the new website (Interbike most likely). I'd suggest calling us and we'll talk you through the changes.

Moots makes great bikes as do Seven and IF. You're doing the right thing in getting on forums and asking questions to get an understanding of what each design is all about and determining what best fits your needs. All the frames you're considering are of excellent quality, but they are different in performance styles. Best of luck in matching up!!


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks for your response. I've been interested in a titanium frame for years (since the first Litespeed appeared at the starting line in crit years ago). 

Lynskey frames are the first ones that actually tempt me to pull the trigger. 

I already have a super smooth and somewhat flexy carbon bike so the 420 seems like a good contrast.

Is that 420 featured on your site (red/white/with brushed stay) on the Houseblend site a standard paint color?


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## dekindy (Jul 7, 2006)

DeLuz said:


> Why are you limiting yourself to Lynskey?


I see absolutely nothing "limiting" about a Lynskey and I own a Serotta titanium.


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## Biker Bear (Aug 5, 2008)

Lynskey builds some very nice Ti frames as does Litespeed. But, there are much better choices out there. We are blessed here in the US in that we have the best Ti frame builders in world right here. Moots, Seven and Serotta will build you a better frame at a comparable price. Seriously, these builders will build you a better frame than whatevever Lynskey or Litespeed put out. You will most likely be satisfied with a Lynskey frame but you can do better with these other builders. Do yourself a favor and test ride a Seven before your make a decision.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks for your opinion but I have tried a Seven. 

They are all great bikes and you really can't go wrong with anyone of them but I've narrowed it down to the Lynskey 320 and 420.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Went with the Helix.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

Lookbiker said:


> Went with the Helix.


Very nice. You may have to change your member name.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Biker Bear said:


> Lynskey builds some very nice Ti frames as does Litespeed. But, there are much better choices out there. We are blessed here in the US in that we have the best Ti frame builders in world right here. Moots, Seven and Serotta will build you a better frame at a comparable price. Seriously, these builders will build you a better frame than whatevever Lynskey or Litespeed put out. You will most likely be satisfied with a Lynskey frame but you can do better with these other builders. Do yourself a favor and test ride a Seven before your make a decision.


What a load of feces. Please enlighten us on how you objectively you "know" that Moots, Seven, and Serotta are "better" than either a Litespeed or Lynskey (or any other high end Ti builder for that matter). I've owned at least 6 different brands (IF, Moots, Dean, Omega, TST, and Lynskey) of Ti to include a VaMoots and sold many Serottas and Sevens when I worked in shops back in my undergrad/grad school days. The three builders you mention are indeed top notch but are not infallible. I found my Moots to be excessively heavy and didn’t like the geometry and to this day the only frames one of my customers had issues with was a Seven that came in with funky geometry (not what the customer wanted). The mythical weld quality of Moots has also been over stated, yes they are nice but quality welds can be found on numerous other brands as well. Perhaps you should define better? Less engineered/use of traditional shaped tubing? proprietary fits with "unique" geometry?


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## akatsuki (Aug 12, 2005)

I have to say that my Lynskey is as well made as any other Ti bike I have seen and better than some of the larger companies' bikes. Personally I have found it a bit too plush and am considering a move to CF or back to Alu, but that is definitely more an issue of taste than quality.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

This has been simmering inside me for a while, threatening to burst out every time I see someone on the forums who believes Litespeed or Lynskey are of similar build quality as Moots, and I decided it's finally time for me to vent.

I have a 2003 Litespeed Tuscany and a 2007 Moots Vamoots. The difference in quality between the frames is obvious.

1. The welds on the Tuscany are irregular, rough and slightly sloppy, as if they were done by an amateur. The Moots welds are so smooth and regular, it's hard to believe an actual person made them freehand. It's industrial and crude versus artistic and refined. While the cosmetics of the welds may not be a complete indication of their strength, the Litespeed frame just looks like a lower quality, more mass-produced, assembly line product. Moots uses a double-pass weld which they believe is superior, as does Merlin, another ABG brand that uses (arguably) superior construction techniques.
2. The mitered joints where the tubes are welded together don't look as tight on the Tuscany as they do on the Moots frame.
3. The head tube badge on the Tuscany is thin, flat, cheap and riveted on. On the Vamoots, it is thick, textured, cast pewter, and screwed on by hand.
4. The Litespeed water bottle mounts are cheap and riveted in. The Moots mounts are welded in with the usual perfect welds.
5. The seat post clamp on the Tuscany is cheap, clunky looking aluminum. The integrated clamp on the Moots is the same story as the water bottle mounts.
6. Tapping on the Tuscany tubing sounds and feels thin, flimsy and cheap. Tapping on the Vamoots tubing feels solid, thick and much higher quality. This is true all over the frame, not just where the Tuscany's tubing might be double butted.
7. The Tuscany dropouts look weaker and easier to bend. The seat and chain stays taper down to a point and are welded to a narrow dropout. The Tuscany derailleur hanger is also not replacable. The Moots dropouts use a much stronger looking Breezer style. The sheer square millimeters of weld area is much larger on the larger diameter stays that aren't tapered and have to be stronger. The derailleur hanger is made of 6Al-4V titanium and is replaceable.
8. Despite all the advanced shaping of the Tuscany's tubing, the frame is soft, sloppy, mushy and flexy compared to the much stiffer-feeling Vamoots with its lower-tech, mostly round, straight tubing. While the Litespeed frame might be slightly more comfortable on rough roads, maybe even too plush and isolated, it's nowhere near as fun to ride as the Vamoots. The Moots bike has a sort of "magical" ride quality that makes it feel organic, alive and natural, like an extension of my own body that works with me.

The resale value of a Moots frame will be significantly higher than a Litespeed and probably a Lynskey as well. You will be lucky to get 25-30% resale for a Litespeed, but probably 50% or more for a Moots since they are in higher demand. Partly due to being somewhat scarcer, but also due to the well-deserved Moots reputation for quality.

Litespeed contracts out their frame building to other companies like Colorado Cyclist Douglas and Excel Sports Macalu frames as a couple examples. They appear to emphasize high-volume mediocre quality over low-volume top quality. Moots has a 6-8 week backlog for their frames where Litespeed usually had an excess of frames sold yearly by Colorado Cyclist at closeout prices.

I don't care about the weight of the frames. Shaving a fraction of a pound off the frame won't make you faster. A lighter frame will likely be less durable and feel flexier when you climb or sprint.

I've seen enough forum posts over the years from people with cracked Litespeed frames, frames with misaligned dropouts, or people who waited months to have a frame repaired, that I don't have a good feeling about the quality and durability of their products anymore.

I have major issues with Litespeed's business strategy versus Moots. Litespeed relies on hype and sensationalism to sell a high volumne of bikes, where Moots relies on word of mouth from happy customers that enhances their reputation for making high quality products.

There's something in the latest Moots catalog I found amusing. It says, "20 miles into an epic mountain bike ride, you won't care what color your frame is, or that the top tube is shaped like a diamond, tear drop or clover leaf. You'll just want the pain to stop."

Look at some of the things (gimmicks that don't make a superior frame in my opinion) Litespeed has tried over the years (and usually dropped after they failed) to drive new sales and upgrades. This is just what I can think of. There are probably a number of things missing.

1. Polished frames
2. Painted frames
3. Really cheap entry level Catalyst frame
4. Integrated headsets
5. Aluminum frames
6. A carbon fiber frame
7. LiteTEC titanium-enhanced carbon fiber seat stays
8. Selling only frames
9. Selling only complete bikes and few or no separate frames
10. Real Design forks and wheels
11. TradeInBikes.com and PreOwnedBikes.com
12. Sales financing
13. Selling a large number of different frames that are difficult to distinguish from one another
14. An all compact frame lineup, probably in a futile effort to compete against lighter carbon fiber frames
15. Ghisallo, "the lightest production frame in the world" that is "individually weight certified"
16. G.E.T. (Geometrically Enhanced Tubing)
17. P.F.T (Proprietary Formed Tubing)
18. WRAP Technology and Bi-Planar chainstays

Now Lynskey Performance is continuing much of the same business model with Helix, yet another expensive gimmick with little or no measurable real world performance benefit that is mainly designed to hype their products and sell higher volume. And outsourcing their frames to multiple companies, like Vassago, On-One, Orange and Five Cycles instead of focusing on low-volume and high quality like most other titanium frame builders.

Because of the above, I no longer have any interest in Litespeed products and have no interest in Lynskey Performance either.

Lynskey and Litespeed employees are free to post a rebuttal to correct or clarify my points.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

I'm glad you got that off your chest...feel better? 

BTW I got less than half for my VaMoots when I sold it (about the same as my IF and Dean). Your delusional if you think it has some sort of mythical resale.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

skepticman said:


> This has been simmering inside me for a while, threatening to burst out every time I see someone on the forums who believes Litespeed or Lynskey are of similar build quality as Moots, and I decided it's finally time for me to vent.
> 
> I have a 2003 Litespeed Tuscany and a 2007 Moots Vamoots. The difference in quality between the frames is obvious.
> 
> ...



I rode a Litespeed Vortex for over 9 years. It was a great frame. I then spent a year on a Titus. It was very well made but the geometry didn't give the handling that I wanted. I'm now on a Lynskey R320 and find it to be the best frame I have ever ridden in my almost 38 years of cycling. The welds look the same as my friends Moots so I don't see smoother and more precise welding. The frame is plenty stiff and responds to all my input. I don't need for it to do anything more. Mass produced? I know of 4 Moots owners in the area I live and only two Lynskey's and they are both owned by me. 

Litespeed did and does try to market new ideas as well as 90% of the other bike manufacturers. They are interested in being around tomorrow. For now Moots has a reputation that allows them to stick with the same product and have demand. That does not make it a superior product just one in demand. In the 70's and 80's people still wanted Harleys but the AMF product was garbage. It didn't make them good just desired.

This thread is about Lynskey and all your example are mostly related to Litespeed. You do own a Litespeed and you cannot give an honest unbiased opinion about Lynskey. I own a Moots so I can tell you first hand about a company that I don't personally own their product. Sorry I just don't buy your rant. 

I'm glad you like your Moots. Go ride it and be happy. I'll ride my Lynskey with just as big of a grin on my face.


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

skepticman said:


> The Moots bike has a sort of "magical" ride quality that makes it feel organic, alive and natural, like an extension of my own body that works with me.


Damn, that sounds awesome!!! I have never ridden a magic organic bike.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

I assume you haven't experienced the magic. Some of Lynskey's own customers seem to think their bikes are magical too.

http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a/pages/testimonials.php

"Quick, agile, spirited, responsive, magical!"

"The combination of the big wheels, super high quailty welding and choice of tubing is magical."

So does Litespeed.

http://www.litespeed.com/bikes/tuscany.aspx

"Magical ride quality"

And Merlin.

http://www.merlinbike.com/2006/classic/ymerlin.aspx

"The standards that we set to build the finest titanium frames possible, still exists today, as we continue to refine on bicycles that are light, strong and have that original magical ride quality."

"You may have heard of the phrase "magical ride of titanium" that gets used so often. The phrase was originally used in a test report describing Merlin bikes in 1987. Ride a Merlin and you will understand."


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## Stanley M. Linden (Jul 28, 2006)

I have 2 MERLIN Bikes and have riden a Lynsky. They make a great bike but the rear dropouts have a cut out space which makes that area weak. I love Ti frames , it will be all I ever ride . But everything fails with time. That dropout will fail long before a solid dropout will. So although they make a great frame stick with a firm that has been making them without gimmicks like fancy paint. Moots, Merlin, Seven and Serotta are better overall then the Lynsky


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

skepticman said:


> I assume you haven't experienced the magic. Some of Lynskey's own customers seem to think their bikes are magical too.
> 
> http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a/pages/testimonials.php
> 
> ...


And your point is???


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Stanley M. Linden said:


> *I have 2 MERLIN Bikes, I love Ti frames, everything fails with time. *


In an effort to make your post as factual as possible (omitting your speculation and contradictory statements) I took the liberty of correcting it. Your welcome. :thumbsup:


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

My knees will fail before the bike does. If you like your Ti bike, whatever the brand, that's great. 

I started this post because I was interested in the Lynskey models. 

I remember someone pointing out the potential problems with my steel bike in 1986. After twenty years, countless miles, crashes, races, and accidental off road adventures, the bike is still intact. 


This is a bike purchase, not a lifestyle choice.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Lynskey makes an outstanding bike. Stick with this choice and you'll end up a happy person. Their designs are well thought out and functional.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Lookbiker said:


> My knees will fail before the bike does. If you like your Ti bike, whatever the brand, that's great.
> 
> I started this post because I was interested in the Lynskey models.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. At this price point there are no bad choices. Be sure to post a ride report and some pics. I can't wait to see a built up Helix.


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## Mark Lynskey (Aug 4, 2008)

Just got back from Eurobike. What an amazing show. Things went very well for us.

Congrats on the choice of the Helix. I'm confident you'll be more than pleased. Let me know if you have any questions along the way.

Mark


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## Mark Lynskey (Aug 4, 2008)

I've been at Eurobike and missed all the recent posting activity. I guess the good news here is that we're all very passionate about what we believe in. I just left a tradeshow that had literally 10's of thousands of bikes on display. And if you ask the creator of each one they believe that their's has it's own set of unique attributes. If there is only 1 perfect bike or brand then I can tell you there's a whole bunch of people wasting their time.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

wrong post


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