# School me on high end Japanese frames



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm familiar with 3Rensho. I'd really like to find a frame in my size to restore.

If I can't find a 3Rensho, what other high end Japanese frames are there? I'm interested in 80's lugged steel racing geometry. 

Thanks


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## Maybeck (Sep 30, 2004)

I may a line on a really nice Panasonic. 21", mid 80's. But it's a complete bike and does not need restoring. PM if interested.


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## JP (Feb 8, 2005)

Miyata top of the line stuff was way better than most people think. Around 1980 they sponsored CRC of A, and the bikes were very nice. Not exactly a cult following, so not crazy on e-bay yet. You want to find a team bike like this one, but in your size:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...Sell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget


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## sekaijin (Aug 22, 2006)

Dave, I can't imagine I would be one to school you on anything, but since my (only) road bike is a 70s Japanese frame, I have been curious about them too. I'm sure you are aware of this page: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/japan.html

Sekai seems to be a pretty obscure one, made 1973-1986. The 5000 Superlite and 4000 Criterion were its top of the line.

Bridgestone's top of the line RB-1 seems to have a following. I was surprised when a guy got $2000 for a mint RB-1 on ebay a few months ago. Is this your size? http://cgi.ebay.com/Bridgestone-RB-...ryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

The Yellow Jersey bike shop has a great section about 3 Rensho frames on their web site, if you haven't seen that already.

Didn't you recently buy a Panasonic track frame?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

tarwheel2 said:


> Didn't you recently buy a Panasonic track frame?


Yep..that is why I'm interested. That quality of that frame is amazing.

Thanks for all the replies so far. I completely forgot about Sheldon's page and the Yellow Jersey


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## takmanjapan (Mar 24, 2004)

*An authoritative response....*

Panasonics are nice. The seat cluster changes several times but the Dutch panasonic team versions from the early 90's are great. Steel versions are still in production for about 1000USD and are customizable. Look at 
http://www.panabyc.co.jp/products/pos/index.html

Zunow's are very nice and my personal favorites. They make a frame called the Belladonna which is anornate lug set with crimped tubing. Often overlooked but cant over look one once you have seen it. Trademark is a rear monostay and eye-popping paint.

Makino was a 3Rensho builder but I think 3Rensho has closed up shop. He builds under his own name now. 

Cherubims are also a high end mark. Mostly steel.

Nakagawa. Again, mostly steel.
Nagasawa. Ditto.
Toei is a boutique special. Steel and mostly randonneur frames.

Samson's have quite a reputation in Kyushu -most frames I see for sale are track units.

For a blast from the past think about Maruishi's or they may be badged as Emperor


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

takmanjapan said:


> Panasonics are nice. The seat cluster changes several times but the Dutch panasonic team versions from the early 90's are great. Steel versions are still in production for about 1000USD and are customizable. Look at
> http://www.panabyc.co.jp/products/pos/index.html
> 
> Zunow's are very nice and my personal favorites. They make a frame called the Belladonna which is anornate lug set with crimped tubing. Often overlooked but cant over look one once you have seen it. Trademark is a rear monostay and eye-popping paint.
> ...



Great info...Thanks... I forgot about Maruishi's..


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Yamaguchi! 
well, sorta...


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## fbagatelleblack (Mar 31, 2005)

Dave Hickey said:


> I'm familiar with 3Rensho. I'd really like to find a frame in my size to restore.
> 
> If I can't find a 3Rensho, what other high end Japanese frames are there? I'm interested in 80's lugged steel racing geometry.
> 
> Thanks


Others have pointed out Miyata, Bridgestone, Panasonic. All of these are fantastic. Find one made from Tange Prestige, my favorite cro-moly tubing ever.

'Course, anything out of the Toyo factory will be impeccable as well. The most commonly available examples of this are the Rivendell Romulus, Atlantis, etc.

Have fun.

FBB


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

fbagatelleblack said:


> Others have pointed out Miyata, Bridgestone, Panasonic. All of these are fantastic. Find one made from Tange Prestige, my favorite cro-moly tubing ever.
> 
> 'Course, anything out of the Toyo factory will be impeccable as well. The most commonly available examples of this are the Rivendell Romulus, Atlantis, etc.
> 
> ...


I'm familar with the Bridgestone models. Are there any particular Panasonic or Miyata models I should look for?


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## fbagatelleblack (Mar 31, 2005)

Dave Hickey said:


> I'm familar with the Bridgestone models. Are there any particular Panasonic or Miyata models I should look for?


I saw a Miyata 912 on craigslist yesterday, but it went quickly. Still, you'd probably want to go with a higher-end model.

I wish I had more info for you off the top of my head, but you might want to post to the iBOB list to hook in with some real experts.

Have you checked out:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BOBishBikesFS

? Bob Hufford and crew comb craiglists and eBay ads across the continent to find bikes exactly like what you are looking for.

- FBB


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

fbagatelleblack said:


> I saw a Miyata 912 on craigslist yesterday, but it went quickly. Still, you'd probably want to go with a higher-end model.
> 
> I wish I had more info for you off the top of my head, but you might want to post to the iBOB list to hook in with some real experts.
> 
> ...


Cool....thanks for the tip


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## bobj (Sep 29, 2004)

I rode a Miyata 912 for a number of years in the '80s. It was a fine bike, made of Tange #2 (same gauge as SL). Always loved the 3Rensho too. I have a Shogun sport touring in the rafters that I'm considering as a Japaneese project.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bobj said:


> I rode a Miyata 912 for a number of years in the '80s. It was a fine bike, made of Tange #2 (same gauge as SL). Always loved the 3Rensho too. I have a Shogun sport touring in the rafters that I'm considering as a Japaneese project.


The Miyata 912 is high on my list...


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## bobj (Sep 29, 2004)

After '81 or '82 they switched to their own spline-triple-butted tubing in all their higher end bikes instead of Tange. I had the hots for the Team bike in those days but could only afford the 912.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Ishiwata is another tubeset to look for... 
Dale's site has a short list of mfgers
http://classicrendezvous.com/Japan/japan.htm


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

Dang... here's a link to photos from the 2005 Handmade Bicycle Show in Japan.

http://www.popdan.com/hmbs05/

There is some VERY pretty steel, including by names listed by takman. Wow.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

an old Zunow catalog
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/zunow/


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

FatTireFred said:


> Ishiwata is another tubeset to look for...
> Dale's site has a short list of mfgers
> http://classicrendezvous.com/Japan/japan.htm


My Panasonic is Ishawata 019.. Even for a Keirin frame, it rides nice


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## fbagatelleblack (Mar 31, 2005)

Dave Hickey said:


> My Panasonic is Ishawata 019.. Even for a Keirin frame, it rides nice


I've been told (by Sheldon B's site) that Ishiwata 019 is metalurgically and dimensionally identical to Columbus SL.

- FBB


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2007)

Dave Hickey said:


> The Miyata 912 is high on my list...



I had a Miyata 1000 for a while. That was a gorgeous bike. Triple butted, internally splined Ishiwata tubing.

A touring bike but it was like riding on a cloud.


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

I recommend adding Univega to the list. Their top end early to mid 80's frames were very nice. I owned a lugged steel Super Strada - I don't recollect the tubing but I worked for a frame builder and he said it was top-of-the-line stuff. The lugs were beautiful (They were windowed) and the finish was as good as I've seen. The frame/fork was very light for the day and it rode like an SL or 531 bike. I remember it was full Dura Ace with Dyna Drive crankset/pedals and the complete bike cost far less than anything of comparable quality. I actually bought it for the group and ended up loving and riding/racing it for a few years.


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

*'Hanx, That's my size!*



sekaijin said:


> Bridgestone's top of the line RB-1 seems to have a following. I was surprised when a guy got $2000 for a mint RB-1 on ebay a few months ago. Is this your size? http://cgi.ebay.com/Bridgestone-RB-...ryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


'Hanx! That's just my size. My '94 Bridgestone RB-2 is looking for some companionship.


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## daneil (Jun 25, 2002)

Dave Hickey said:


> The Miyata 912 is high on my list...


Dave- Keep an eye out for the Miyata Team. One of the nicest frames I've been lucky to examine. Miyata used to draw its own tubes. Triple butted and internally splined, stiff drops, and a beautiful fork crown. I'll keep an eye out for you, we're the same size and I can't buy for myself but I can seem to stop looking.

-Dan


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

*I second Univega*



refund!? said:


> I recommend adding Univega to the list. Their top end early to mid 80's frames were very nice. I owned a lugged steel Super Strada - I don't recollect the tubing but I worked for a frame builder and he said it was top-of-the-line stuff. The lugs were beautiful (They were windowed) and the finish was as good as I've seen. The frame/fork was very light for the day and it rode like an SL or 531 bike. I remember it was full Dura Ace with Dyna Drive crankset/pedals and the complete bike cost far less than anything of comparable quality. I actually bought it for the group and ended up loving and riding/racing it for a few years.


Hey Refund! From Bertoni's to Univega's. I had an '84 Super Strada myself. It was Tange Champion #1 tubing and the brazing/lugwork was impeccable. Unlike a lot of frames coming out of Japan in that era, Univega's varied head- and seat-tube angles with frame sizes, something Ben Lawee insisted on from his Italvega days. It was a sweet ride, really every bit as nice as the Bob Jackson 753 that replaced it. I believe most of the mid to upper-end Univega's came from Panasonic's factory.

I sold the frame and fork to a friend who worked in a shop in San Luis Obispo who raced it for several years.


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## fbagatelleblack (Mar 31, 2005)

refund!? said:


> I recommend adding Univega to the list.


And while we're here, let's ad the precursor to Univega, Italvega:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/bik/294462229.html

$260 seems like a lot for the bike in the ad, and it would need work to be put back to period-correct state, but those were some cool bikes in general.

- FBB


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## takmanjapan (Mar 24, 2004)

*mmmm... Zunow*

belladonna comes with regular or fluted tubing (like the Rossin Ghiblis)


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## rwbadley (Apr 13, 2002)

Dave Hickey said:


> I'm familiar with 3Rensho. I'd really like to find a frame in my size to restore.
> 
> If I can't find a 3Rensho, what other high end Japanese frames are there? I'm interested in 80's lugged steel racing geometry.
> 
> Thanks


A few I have enjoyed are Shogun, and Lotus. Shogun ran the gamut (as did Lotus) from lower to upper level frames. Between the two I would look for a Lotus upper level like the triumphe, Competition or Supreme. The Comp was pretty cool with nice chrome lugs, pretty paint and Suntoure Superbe gruppo.


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## sekaijin (Aug 22, 2006)

JaeP said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/Bridgestone-RB-1...QQcmdZViewItem 'Hanx! That's just my size. My '94 Bridgestone RB-2 is looking for some companionship.


Wonder what the reserve is. 

Hey if you get it, I'll take my finders fee in beer!  :beer:


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## bicyclerepairman (Mar 12, 2003)

*I would say that Centurion bicycles should be in the running.....*

as well as some of the 'made in Japan' Schwinns of that era.....

& the SR Semi-Pro......


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

from a previous link on on one of your posts Keirin Coulture http://keirinculture.com/store//catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=94

cool paint job


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

cmg said:


> from a previous link on on one of your posts Keirin Coulture http://keirinculture.com/store//catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=94
> 
> cool paint job


If anyone is interested in a Keirin frame from Keirin Culture, sign up for his email alerts. You will receive advanced notice on frames he's going to sell. Many sell before they are listed...


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## ckilner (Oct 4, 2004)

Dave:
My brother and I raced on some high-end Japanese bikes in the mid-80's. As previously mentioned, the Univega Super Strada was nice. My brother rode a red one with the quad-butted, splined tubset (like SLX?) and Dura-Ace/tubular wheelset. I had a Team Issue Nishiki (handmade by Kawamura) with Prestige tubing and full Dura-Ace w/ GL330 wheelset. Both were ~19lbs, which was very rare in 1986. Both rode beatifully and the Nishiki is still the nicest-riding bike I've owned.


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## dannybgoode (Feb 3, 2005)

Here's what a local frame builder in Sheffield has to say about Ishiwata tubing...

_Ishiwata is a fantastic material, I used to build in Ishiwata 017 and 015 back in the 1980s/90s; the latter tubing paper thin steel had to be silver soldered! Weighed less than alloy and lasted longer, and the diference in ride was phenominal! 

It's only 'floor!' was that it was TOO GOOD it lasted too long!!! Big business (mass production Trek, Cannondale....etc) call that over engineering today! If it doesn't break or let you down after a year they don't get to sell more over priced, glossy crap._

I agree with his sentiments re: branded equipment as well but that's a topic for a whole different post!!

Danny B


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

I recently built up a Sekai 4000 with a mix of mainly old Suntour Superbe Pro and some new Shimano parts, Cane Creek Wheelset, and a Cinelli bar and stem with bar end shifters and aero brake levers. It is probably my favorite bike in the garage so far this season. Also, if you live near Madison WI, Andy from The Yellow Jersey still has some Nagasawa framesets for sale.


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## MDGColorado (Nov 9, 2004)

There seems to be a lot of Japanese interest in the Rene Herse-Alex Singer school of bike design. Check the Velo Orange blog http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/ for some cool bikes we can't even get here. 

And Jitensha studios http://www.jitensha.com/eng/e_index.html


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