# Chinese titanium - Beware Titan Product



## markrhino

This is a warning to all those thinking of buying a Chinese Titanium frame from Xi’an Titan Product.
The following is my personal experience of buying a titanium frame.
Unfortunately I seem to be one of those people who if you’ve heard of some crazy sh#* thing happening to someone and thought ‘its just an urban myth’ or ‘that’s something that rarely happens to anyone’, well, it usually happens to me.
After much researching I narrowed frame builders down to Titan Product and XACD. I found trying to deal with Porter at XACD a complete headache. The bloke is a pain in the arse. He has a massive chip on his shoulder and I figured, should I have any problems, dealing with him would be a nightmare. Anita at Xi’an Titan Product however was easy to converse with.
After many emails back and forth I eventually finalised my frame dimensions. It took approximately 4 weeks from payment until the frame arrived.
Out of the box it looked great. I proudly took it to my LBS to have the headset pressed in. 
And this is where it turns to crap. Upon inspecting the head tube the LBS mechanic found the head tube bent. Being vertically bent meant the ends were no longer perpendicular but on top of this each side of the head tube was not equal. The head tube closest to the join of the down tube and top tube had shrunk so that it was shorter than the front of the head tube.
Regardless of this I instructed the mechanic to press the headset in anyway, just to see what happens. The headsets did not sit properly; there was a gap in some areas between the headset and the head tube. Then, when trying to fit the fork through, it would not fit. After a little fidgeting it finally pushed through but would not rotate easily due to the forces the bent head tube (and therefore headset) put onto it.
After I finished throwing a tantrum, which included much swearing and kicking whatever I wouldn’t break my foot on, I decided to take the frame to another LBS to get a second opinion. They also told me the head tube was stuffed and even pointed out the uneven markings on the headset once it had been removed. Indicating a head tube that was not round either. Great. Still not happy and in denial I took it to a third LBS, same diagnosis.
I contact Anita at Xi’an Titan and told her the problem. She said I could either return the frame and they would refund shipping and the frame cost or they would pay for the frame to be fixed locally.
I decided it would be easier if I simply returned the frame and got a replacement.
When they received the frame back they initially gave me 2 options:
1. A full refund
2. CNC head tube out and replace it.
I told them I would simply like a refund.
They refused. Nice choice eh?
Anita at Xi’an Titan Product told me their ‘Engineer’ had looked at the frame and found it to be fine. (They also said they inspected the frame before it left and said it was fine). They said they would return the frame but refused to refund my money as they had previously promised.
I now don’t want the frame back as I don’t know what they have done to it. Whether they have cut the head tube out and replaced it or bent it somehow or faced the head tube. I have no idea how they have decided a head tube was functional when 3 independent LBS wrenches here in Australia can assess it as being f*#@ed?
I have now had to put a dispute in through Alibaba in the hope they will force Xi’an Titan Product to refund my money but it is looking unlikely.
Other wonderful quotes from Anita is that they ‘produce 1000s of frames every year and they have never had a problem’. I find this very unlikely. No company in the world who produce 1000s of items per year have no problems at all.
And ‘The bending is unavoidable to weld large downtube to a long headtube’. So anyone looking to buy a Ti frame off these guys, make sure your head tube is less than 15cm long.
On top of all of this I bought a number of titanium bolts from them that never arrived. Anita told me she packaged them in the box with the frame but unless someone opened the box and took them out (unlikely) they were never sent with the frame.
It is horrible that Anita at Titan assured me that they would pay for not only refunding the frame but for return shipping but as soon as they had the frame back they changed their mind and refused any refund at all.
I saw a number of happy stories from people who had bought frames from them and little bad stories. Well, here’s your bad story.
Further to this, through the AliExpress feedback system, I gave Xi’an Titan Product a 1 star feedback rating on the transaction. This has never appeared on the website. They still have a 100% positive feedback rating on their AliExpress site.
So, there you have it. You have been warned. Use my experience to way up the pro’s and con’s. I thought Titan Product was the best of the bad lot but I was wrong. They are as dishonest as the rest of them, so take your chances. 
Anyone looking for further info, feel free to PM me.
(PS – You’ll find my post in a few bike forums to get the message out there.)
Forewarned is forearmed.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

Oh dear ... not good not good


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## My Own Private Idaho

I had a very similar experience with an American custom bike builder. The difference between you and me is that I'm out almost $4000.


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## CleavesF

3Al / 2.5V Brushed Titanium Frames from $995

NEXT!


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## markrhino

Habenero and Bikes Direct don't ship to Aust.
Next.


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## AnitaZhang

Mr. Mark Ryan customed a 56cm cyclocross frame in our company 16th April 2012. We completed frame and sent to him on 23th May. After half a month, Mr. Mark Ryan told us the frame headtube is too bend to install fork. At beginnng I was surprised, because we have quality control before shipping. I told Mr. Mark Ryan the bending of headtube is in its tolerance. It shouldn't be a problem assembling. Why do I say it is in its tolerance. As most of people know, the titanium frame tube is very thin only 0.9mm thick. After heating/welding, it will slightly bent or ovaled. The frame manufacture have mould to control bending degree and they have a reamer to machine inner tube to prevent oval. Of course we cann't guarrantee 100% straight after welding. But we will make it in its tolerance. In this article, Mr. Mark Ryan said I told him its because headtube too long, the headtube bend. It's not true. I didn't say that. I told Mr. Mark Ryan because his downtube is very large (44.5mm) and headtube is very long 150mm. It's more easy to cause bending.

I told Mr. Mark Ryan you can try other shop to install frame. Maybe different store have different method. In order to let Mr. Mark Ryan trust the frame, I told him we produce 1000 frames a year, none of them had headtube problem. Obivoiusly Mr. Mark Ryan misunderstood me. He didn’t mention headtube on his article. It make others think me stupid to say none of problem for 1000 frames. 

After one day, Mr. Mark Ryan said he have tried 3 shops and all say frame is useless and insist we should make a new frame for him. But it is impossible for us to send a new frame without confirm previous frame is real usless. We insist to ship frame back first and promised Mr. Mark Ryan we will refund all expense including freight shipping back if frame realy usless. By the way, Mr. Mark Ryan quoted us 700 dollars for frame shipping back from Australia at begining. Finally the frame was shipped back by EMS which is only 100 dollars. Here is dispute. After we received frame, we installed it by our fork and headset. It worked well. We made photos to Mr. Mark Ryan and we even prepared a video how it is easily installed. But Mr. Mark Ryan insist full refund. He said we must did something after received frame. Actually we not. Mr. Mark Ryan sent a dispute to Aliexpress. We both provide evidence to Aliexpress. At last, we lost due to we have no vedio opening box. Aliexpress refund money to Mr. Mark Ryan. Mr. Mark Ryan didn't mention this part in his article. About bolts, we sent it with frame. Mr. Mark Ryan said he didn't see it after he received goods 20 days later. He made a dispute in Paypal too. But at last Paypal didn't support Mr. Mark Ryan. I thought the dispute have been settled down by two authority (Aliexpress and Paypal). But no. Mr. Mark Ryan wrote some bad words on Aliexpress store feedback and gave a very low value. He tried to hurt our name and reputation. Fortunately Aliexpress prevent it. Now Mr. Mark Ryan spread bad words through this forum. I cann't prevent it as internet is free speaking. And I won't do it either. Because I believe we still have many many customers who are happy with our products.

Anita from Titan product.
By the way, I won't response for this article any mow. I gor more important thing to do.


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## cda 455

AnitaZhang said:


> Mr. Mark Ryan customed a 56cm cyclocross frame in our company 16th April 2012. We completed frame and sent to him on 23th May. After half a month, Mr. Mark Ryan told us the frame headtube is too bend to install fork. At beginnng I was surprised, because we have quality control before shipping. I told Mr. Mark Ryan the bending of headtube is in its tolerance. It shouldn't be a problem assembling. Why do I say it is in its tolerance. As most of people know, the titanium frame tube is very thin only 0.9mm thick. After heating/welding, it will slightly bent or ovaled. The frame manufacture have mould to control bending degree and they have a reamer to machine inner tube to prevent oval. Of course we cann't guarrantee 100% straight after welding. But we will make it in its tolerance. In this article, Mr. Mark Ryan said I told him its because headtube too long, the headtube bend. It's not true. I didn't say that. I told Mr. Mark Ryan because his downtube is very large (44.5mm) and headtube is very long 150mm. It's more easy to cause bending.
> 
> I told Mr. Mark Ryan you can try other shop to install frame. Maybe different store have different method. In order to let Mr. Mark Ryan trust the frame, I told him we produce 1000 frames a year, none of them had headtube problem. Obivoiusly Mr. Mark Ryan didn't misunderstand me. He didn’t mention headtube on his article. It make others think me stupid to say none of problem for 1000 frames.
> 
> After one day, Mr. Mark Ryan said he have tried 3 shops and all say frame is useless and insist we should make a new frame for him. But it is impossible for us to send a new frame without confirm previous frame is real usless. We insist to ship frame back first and promised Mr. Mark Ryan we will refund all expense including freight shipping back if frame realy usless. By the way, Mr. Mark Ryan quoted us 700 dollars for frame shipping back from Australia at begining. Finally the frame was shipped back by EMS which is only 100 dollars. Here is dispute. After we received frame, we installed it by our fork and headset. It worked well. We made photos to Mr. Mark Ryan and we even prepared a video how it is easily installed. But Mr. Mark Ryan insist full refund. He said we must did something after received frame. Actually we not. Mr. Mark Ryan sent a dispute to Aliexpress. We both provide evidence to Aliexpress. At last, we lost due to we have no vedio opening box. Aliexpress refund money to Mr. Mark Ryan. Mr. Mark Ryan didn't mention this part in his article. About bolts, we sent it with frame. Mr. Mark Ryan said he didn't see it after he received goods 20 days later. He made a dispute in Paypal too. But at last Paypal didn't support Mr. Mark Ryan. I thought the dispute have been settled down by two authority (Aliexpress and Paypal). But no. Mr. Mark Ryan wrote some bad words on Aliexpress store feedback and gave a very low value. He tried to hurt our name and reputation. Fortunately Aliexpress prevent it. Now Mr. Mark Ryan spread bad words through this forum. I cann't prevent it as internet is free speaking. And I won't do it either. Because I believe we still have many many customers who are happy with our products.
> 
> Anita from Titan product


Wow!

Your first poast.


And he was correct; you sent him a bent headtube.

You even admit it.


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## markrhino

Anita at Xi'an Titan Product never mentioned _only_ refunding shipping and frame cost 'if frame was realy usless'. She simply said they would refund return shipping and the purchase price.
There were a lot of red flags waving in my communication with Anita after i notified them of the bent/warped head tube.
Once they had the frame back they said they could 'fix it' but then later denied there was any problem with it. (Now they had CNCd the headtube out and replaced it methinks)
Anita also admitted they would sell the frame elsewhere so they did not lose any money on the frame - poor bugger who buys it.
Yes, i did get ridiculously large quotes from couriers to have the frame sent back but i was the one who pointed this out to Anita and it took me about 5 or 6 quotes before i finally found one that cost $120. Thank god. And i still haven't received this money back as promised.
Good to see they admit if you give a low feedback score it doesn't get registered. No wonder they have a 100% feedback rating. I never wrote any words on the website only ticked the 1 star boxes.
If anyone thinks i may be bending the truth i am happy to provide the full email dialogue showing the empty promises and blatant lies of Xi'an Titan Product.


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## markrhino

Its interesting to note they do monitor these forums.
Not happy when they get negative feedback though.


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## markrhino

Have a look for yourself.
Does this look like a usable head tube?
If you look closely u can see the top of the head tube is bent/warped also.
IMG_1093 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## cda 455

markrhino said:


> Have a look for yourself.
> Does this look like a usable head tube?
> If you look closely u can see the top of the head tube is bent/warped also.
> IMG_1093 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!



It's funny that Anita admitted it.


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## markrhino

Especially when she says 'we produce 1000s of frames, none of which have head tube problem'


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## Local Hero

markrhino said:


> Its interesting to note they do monitor these forums.
> Not happy when they get negative feedback though.


Methinks they have an automated google search for their name. 

I have one for my name. 

Check it out: http://www.google.com/alerts


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## markrhino

Interesting.


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## markrhino

It proves that they care about what is written about them in this forum.


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## Fivethumbs

When I had a custom frame made the builder pointed out to me that one of the effects of welding the top and down tubes to the head tube causes the head tube to bend (just like the photo). A good frame builder knows how to limit the bending so the frame is usable. When i got my frame the headset went in fine and the fork installed with no problem. Apparently whoever made that frame didn't know how to do it right.


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## SOX 404

Sorry to say, but what do you expect? It's made in China


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## markrhino

Not only that but didn't have the quality control measures in place to pick it up before it was sent.


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## markrhino

Sox, u do realize the majority of bikes on the road are made in China?


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## SOX 404

markrhino said:


> Sox, u do realize the majority of bikes on the road are made in China?


I'm not sure about majority, but I know some of them are manufactured in China. And I'm pretty sure that big manufacturers have strict quality controls regardless where the products are made.

Anyhow, sorry to read about your bad experience. I hope all is well and you get what you deserve from Xi'an Titan.


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## markrhino

Currently Anita from Xi'an Titan Product is blackmailing me saying she will only refund me if i remove my posts.


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## AnitaZhang

This is what you say useless frame


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## JustTooBig

AnitaZhang said:


> This is what you say useless frame


check out the uneven gap between the fork crown and headset cup in the first photo. This would indicate that the ends of the head tube are not perfectly parallel. What causes that? A head tube that is not straight.

And I thought you promised that you would not be responding to this thread anymore. I seem to recall you saying you had more important things to do.


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## mtnroadie

deleted


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## Oxtox

based on the photos provided, that frame appears to have obvious construction problems.

the purchaser should be given a refund or a new frame.

some high-caliber customer service on an issue like this would be enormously helpful to the company's image as a reputable firm and one worth doing business with. 

being contentious and arguing on the internet is only going to produce negative opinions.


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## Italianrider76

mtnroadie said:


> :idea: Like learning Engrish? :thumbsup:


Maybe you can translate it in Cantonese or Mandarin for our friend Anita.


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## Marc

JustTooBig said:


> check out the uneven gap between the fork crown and headset cup in the first photo. This would indicate that the ends of the head tube are not perfectly parallel. What causes that? A head tube that is not straight.
> 
> And I thought you promised that you would not be responding to this thread anymore. I seem to recall you saying you had more important things to do.


I find it disconcerting that any commercial operation, custom bike frame building or otherwise, would out a customer's real name on an internet bulletin board...Even if I didn't already have a Seven, I wouldn't buy from them after seeing that.


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## robdamanii

Ahh yes. Unbranded chinese crap.

This is why it's worth the extra scratch to go through a reputable branded builder with QC and customer service. I have no faith/trust in factory direct ANYTHING from China.


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## psycleridr

Italianrider76 said:


> Maybe you can translate it in Cantonese or Mandarin for our friend Anita.


Or any other of the many languages he is fluent in 

Marc- suck for you but pictures that both you and Anita posted show bad workmanship

Anita your pics just show your tolerances are not tight enough. Also, head tube length should not make a difference if you have a quality builder doing it right.
Do the right thing and refund the money


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## SOX 404

Sacrificing company's good reputation over a refund for defected product.

I don't understand this logic.


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## cda 455

JustTooBig said:


> check out the uneven gap between the fork crown and headset cup in the first photo. This would indicate that the ends of the head tube are not perfectly parallel. What causes that? A head tube that is not straight.
> 
> And I thought you promised that you would not be responding to this thread anymore. I seem to recall you saying you had more important things to do.


Man, that gap sticks out like a sore thumb :eek6: !


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## cda 455

AnitaZhang said:


> This is what you say useless frame



Right click, save X5.


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## cda 455

SOX 404 said:


> Sacrificing company's good reputation over a refund for defected product.
> 
> I don't understand this logic.



I think he/she/it will if 'the party' finds out what he/she/it is doing.


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## cda 455

markrhino said:


> Currently Anita from Xi'an Titan Product is blackmailing me saying she will only refund me if i remove my posts.



Refund first, Anita. 




Then he'll talk about taking down the thread; for a nominal fee......


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## BernyMac

Losing face is never a good thing for any Chinese owned business. This is bad for your reputation specially if you are just starting out or if you are trying to expand your client base. 

This company needs to "save face" and do the honorable thing. The potential in lost sales and tainted reputation is not worth one bad transaction.


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## Cpt000

Good grief, it looks like Titan Products is a scam and should be avoided at all costs. They're obviously not knowledgeable about their products nor willing to fix an obvious error. Avoid Titan Products, in my opinion!


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## Cpt000

Good grief, it looks like Titan Products is a scam and should be avoided at all costs. They obviously don't care about the customer nor willing to fix an obvious error. Just awful - and to think I was considering them for a future build. Avoid Titan Products, in my opinion!


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## qatarbhoy

mtnroadie said:


> :idea: Like learning Engrish? :thumbsup:


Cheap shot. :nonod: How's your Mandarin?


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## mtnroadie

deleted


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## jnbrown

Just an independent observer here.
It seems Titan either has an ego that is too big for their own and customers good, or they just don't want to loose any money on the deal. From what I have seen and read, the frame is clearly defective and Mark should receive a full refund no questions asked. If Titan wants to do business with U.S. customers they need to clean up their act. I was considering buying some chinese carbon clincher rims but decided against it even before reading this, in part due to concerns about safety.


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## AnitaZhang

SOX 404 said:


> I'm not sure about majority, but I know some of them are manufactured in China. And I'm pretty sure that big manufacturers have strict quality controls regardless where the products are made.
> 
> Anyhow, sorry to read about your bad experience. I hope all is well and you get what you deserve from Xi'an Titan.


you are right. there is tolerance for bending of headtube. check this picture. obviously we do controll the bending. 
the transaction is completed on Aliexpress (like e-bay). The dispute was solved by Aliexpress too. I don't know why Aliexpress didn't surport sending back freight. But Mr. Mark do get full frame refunded.


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## AnitaZhang

JustTooBig said:


> check out the uneven gap between the fork crown and headset cup in the first photo. This would indicate that the ends of the head tube are not perfectly parallel. What causes that? A head tube that is not straight.
> 
> And I thought you promised that you would not be responding to this thread anymore. I seem to recall you saying you had more important things to do.


The gap is because fork was not tight installed. It is just to show fork and headset can be installed, not like someone say it's usless. 

I found it's not able to don't think about it although I have many works. It have been an nightmare.


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## AnitaZhang

Is anyone know how to upload video. from the video you can see how work well of fork, headtube and headset.


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## robdamanii

AnitaZhang said:


> *The gap is because fork was not tight installed.* It is just to show fork and headset can be installed, not like someone say it's usless.
> 
> I found it's not able to don't think about it although I have many works. It have been an nightmare.


Bull. Sh!t. 

That frame is hosed and you know it. Don't hide behind the fact you're in China and have no responsibility to the consumer, or any concern for screwing people over for a buck. I know, it's what chinese factory direct is known for, but don't be that guy.

Stop the crap. Admit that whomever welded that hunk of crap screwed up and fix it.


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## AnitaZhang

SOX 404 said:


> I'm not sure about majority, but I know some of them are manufactured in China. And I'm pretty sure that big manufacturers have strict quality controls regardless where the products are made.
> 
> Anyhow, sorry to read about your bad experience. I hope all is well and you get what you deserve from Xi'an Titan.


How to judge what is deserve? everyone have different answers. 
Mr. Mark think the full refund is what he deserve including freight, frame cost and bolts.

But we made the frame, we paid shipping cost to Australia. We get frame shipped back. We were asked to pay freight shipping back and refund the bolts we already sent.

Aliexpress gave a judgment. They sent frame money back to Mr. Mark. Mr. Mark didn't get freight from Aliexpress and Paypal refused his request for bolts (the frame transaction is dealed from Aliexpress and the bolts are paid by Paypal). Now he want get moeny back by hurting our company reputation. Yesterday he sent mail said if we don't give money, he will post to everywhere.


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## cda 455

robdamanii said:


> _*Bull. Sh!t.
> *_
> That frame is hosed and you know it. Don't hide behind the fact you're in China and have no responsibility to the consumer, or any concern for screwing people over for a buck. I know, it's what chinese factory direct is known for, but don't be that guy.
> 
> Stop the crap. Admit that whomever welded that hunk of crap screwed up and fix it.


First thing I thought of  !


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## AnitaZhang

markrhino said:


> Currently Anita from Xi'an Titan Product is blackmailing me saying she will only refund me if i remove my posts.


I didn't blackmail you. I was blackmailed.


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## AnitaZhang

markrhino said:


> Especially when she says 'we produce 1000s of frames, none of which have head tube problem'


None of was shipped back due to headtube bending


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## cda 455

AnitaZhang said:


> How to judge what is deserve? everyone have different answers.
> Mr. Mark think the full refund is what he deserve including freight, frame cost and bolts.
> 
> But we made the frame, we paid shipping cost to Australia. We get frame shipped back. We were asked to pay freight shipping back and refund the bolts we already sent.
> 
> Aliexpress gave a judgment. They sent frame money back to Mr. Mark. Mr. Mark didn't get freight from Aliexpress and Paypal refused his request for bolts (the frame transaction is dealed from Aliexpress and the bolts are paid by Paypal). Now he want get moeny back by hurting our company reputation. Yesterday he sent mail said if we don't give money, he will post to everywhere.


It sounds like you started it; He came up with plan B; You came here continuing your Bravo Sierra, and apparently trying to blackmail said member.

All you're doing is digging your hole deeper.


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## AnitaZhang

BernyMac said:


> Losing face is never a good thing for any Chinese owned business. This is bad for your reputation specially if you are just starting out or if you are trying to expand your client base.
> 
> This company needs to "save face" and do the honorable thing. The potential in lost sales and tainted reputation is not worth one bad transaction.


You are right. Thanks for advice. We have sent all moeny back yesterday no matter right or wrong.


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## cda 455

AnitaZhang said:


> You are right. Thanks for advice. We have sent all moeny back yesterday no matter right or wrong.


We'll see what the OP has to say.


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## SOX 404

jnbrown said:


> Just an independent observer here.
> It seems Titan either has an ego that is too big for their own and customers good, or they just don't want to loose any money on the deal. From what I have seen and read, the frame is clearly defective and Mark should receive a full refund no questions asked. *If Titan wants to do business with U.S. customers they need to clean up their act. *I was considering buying some chinese carbon clincher rims but decided against it even before reading this, in part due to concerns about safety.


Not only US customers, all customers. Mark I belive is from Australia.


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## cda 455

SOX 404 said:


> Not only US customers, all customers. Mark I belive is from Australia.



That's right; The Land Down Under  !


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## eidolon

SOX 404 said:


> Sorry to say, but what do you expect? It's made in China


So are the vast majority of Western branded, high end road frames. So what is your point?


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## SOX 404

AnitaZhang said:


> Is anyone know how to upload video. from the video you can see how work well of fork, headtube and headset.


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


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## Fivethumbs

AnitaZhang said:


> Is anyone know how to upload video. from the video you can see how work well of fork, headtube and headset.


You should probably be asking if anyone here knows how to weld a headtube!


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## qatarbhoy

Fair play to Titan if they have indeed stumped up not just the frame refund but the shipping costs. It's worth it to restore customer confidence. IME it's rare to get refunded your postage when you send something back - I know Wiggle refund up to 25 pounds for return postage, but many companies don't. They're not terrible companies as a result; those are their policies and the consumer has to decide if they're okay with that.

Also, it's worth pointing out that Anita has at least been polite throughout this whole issue, which is more than can be said for some of the other posters. There have been numerous threads about people being hosed by US-based custom builders, yet it never devolves into USA-bashing.


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## markrhino

No, not all money back Anita.
Fact
1. Frame was deemed unusable by 3 different mechanics.
2. Anita assured me i would receive a refund for the frame AND shipping.
3. Once frame was returned to Anita she refused to issue ANY refund.
4. I had to apply for a refund through AliExpress who i purchased the frame through and Anita and Titan product did everything they could to prevent me from getting any refund.
5.AliExpress has now ruled in my favour. (thank god, otherwise i would be out of money with no frame)
6. Titan product has now only refunded the shipping after this post. However they wanted me to remove the posts BEFORE they refunded me. (Sorry Anita, i've fallen for that one once already)
7. They have now refunded my return shipping.
8. They are still refusing to refund my money for the titanium bolts i never received saying they cant trust me and that i probably received them but i am lying and trying to deceive THEM.

I would like to know, should i remove these posts?
Should i demand the money back for the bolts or cut my losses?

PS I told Anita i would stop posting now i have been refunded shipping (i lied) but she also said she would refund my money if i returned the frame, so i guess we're even.


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## Matt1986

qatarbhoy said:


> Fair play to Titan if they have indeed stumped up not just the frame refund but the shipping costs. It's worth it to restore customer confidence. IME it's rare to get refunded your postage when you send something back - I know Wiggle refund up to 25 pounds for return postage, but many companies don't. They're not terrible companies as a result; those are their policies and the consumer has to decide if they're okay with that.
> 
> Also, it's worth pointing out that Anita has at least been polite throughout this whole issue, which is more than can be said for some of the other posters. There have been numerous threads about people being hosed by US-based custom builders, yet it never devolves into USA-bashing.


Refreshing to hear some more nuanced observations; seller-buyer disputes happen everywhere in the world, the borderline racism that has at times surfaced in this thread is pathetic. 

This has obviously been distressful for both parties, irrespective of who's at fault, maybe it's worth cutting your losses with the bolts and put the whole dilemma behind you. I've had similar grievances in the past and, at the end of the day, I'd rather be out riding than getting worked up over recouping every last cent.


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## robdamanii

markrhino said:


> No, not all money back Anita.
> Fact
> 1. Frame was deemed unusable by 3 different mechanics.
> 2. Anita assured me i would receive a refund for the frame AND shipping.
> 3. Once frame was returned to Anita she refused to issue ANY refund.
> 4. I had to apply for a refund through AliExpress who i purchased the frame through and Anita and Titan product did everything they could to prevent me from getting any refund.
> 5.AliExpress has now ruled in my favour. (thank god, otherwise i would be out of money with no frame)
> 6. Titan product has now only refunded the shipping after this post. However they wanted me to remove the posts BEFORE they refunded me. (Sorry Anita, i've fallen for that one once already)
> 7. They have now refunded my return shipping.
> 8. They are still refusing to refund my money for the titanium bolts i never received saying they cant trust me and that i probably received them but i am lying and trying to deceive THEM.
> 
> I would like to know, should i remove these posts?
> Should i demand the money back for the bolts or cut my losses?
> 
> PS I told Anita i would stop posting now i have been refunded shipping (i lied) but she also said she would refund my money if i returned the frame, so i guess we're even.


No, do not remove these posts.

It's better to keep this record of what people have dealt with in terms of these chinese companies as a warning. You're not dealing with typical QC and customer service. You're not dealing with people who WANT to help you out, only to make a buck.

Leave your post as an experiential warning to others.

As for the comments on "borderline racism"...
It's well known that these Chinese companies are out for nothing else than to make money at all costs, consumer be damned. They're the only ones who are mass counterfeiting bikes (read: Pinarello) to make a few bucks. They're the only ones who are mass counterfeiting clothing. They're one of the worst in terms of product quality and customer service when not overseen by a parent company (right alongside the scammers in Indonesia.) 

Sorry if you can't deal with the fact that the people who are doing this are Chinese, but that's how it is right now. Maybe if they cut the sh!t, stood behind quality products instead of selling garbage and trying lay the blame on the customer, people wouldn't have such feelings about these companies. For companies that rely on word of mouth to promote their products (along with scamming people on Alibaba) they should be bending over backwards, kissing this guy's ass to keep these posts out of forums.


----------



## Matt1986

robdamanii said:


> As for the comments on "borderline racism"...
> It's well known that these Chinese companies are out for nothing else than to make money at all costs, consumer be damned. They're the only ones who are mass counterfeiting bikes (read: Pinarello) to make a few bucks. They're the only ones who are mass counterfeiting clothing. They're one of the worst in terms of product quality and customer service when not overseen by a parent company (right alongside the scammers in Indonesia.)
> 
> Sorry if you can't deal with the fact that the people who are doing this are Chinese, but that's how it is right now. Maybe if they cut the sh!t, stood behind quality products instead of selling garbage and trying lay the blame on the customer, people wouldn't have such feelings about these companies. For companies that rely on word of mouth to promote their products (along with scamming people on Alibaba) they should be bending over backwards, kissing this guy's ass to keep these posts out of forums.


You clearly understand very little about economics. I think you'll find the desire to maximise profit is fairly ubiquitous among capitalists, it's simply that Chinese manufacturers happen to have a comparative advantage in labour-intensive, low-value added production whereas companies like Pinarello are more specialised and offer the customer service standards you speak of as part of the pricetag when you fork out for a Dogma 2. It says nothing of the moral qualities of either business, but is merely a reflection of companies operating out of countries at differing stages of development and with different resources at hand.

It is also a two-way relationship. China's biggest export markets are the US and Europe, the trade involved far outstripping domestic consumption. It's 'westerners' - both individuals and corporations - who fuel demand for Chinese products; without their willing participation in this trade cheap Chinese goods wouldn't exist. And if you're so upset about counterfeited goods, perhaps you should petition big bike companies to cease outsourcing production to China in order to exploit cheap labour, therefore providing the facilities, technology and designs that enable copies to be produced. What's that, they won't listen to you? Oh, that's right, they too are looking to make a buck by any means possible.

As I said, borderline racism.


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

Matt1986 said:


> ... It is also a two-way relationship. China's biggest export markets are the US and Europe, the trade involved far outstripping domestic consumption. It's 'westerners' - both individuals and corporations - who fuel demand for Chinese products; without their willing participation in this trade cheap Chinese goods wouldn't exist. And if you're so upset about counterfeited goods, perhaps you should petition big bike companies to cease outsourcing production to China in order to exploit cheap labour, therefore providing the facilities, technology and designs that enable copies to be produced. What's that, they won't listen to you? Oh, that's right, they too are looking to make a buck by any means possible.
> 
> As I said, borderline racism.


+1

It is a different world out there.

'borderline racism'??? well very easy to fall into ... 

When you run short of arguments, it is very easy to go the easiest route to offend somebody ...


----------



## tihsepa

Chinese stuff sucks (period)

<embed src="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f8/1546306944" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" flashVars="videoId=1627314830001&playerId=1546306944&viewerSecureGatewayURL=https://console.brightcove.com/services/amfgateway&servicesURL=http://services.brightcove.com/services&cdnURL=http://admin.brightcove.com&domain=embed&autoStart=false&" base="http://admin.brightcove.com" name="flashObj" width="512" height="295" seamlesstabbing="false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" swLiveConnect="true" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"></embed>


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

All they (Chinese) need is someone to be a bit more diligent and realise how much potential there is to come up with something really good and with labour that cheap in those regions.

I think what is missing is passion. Look at Hope. Some 250+ miles north of me. They make excellant components. I have 3 sets of MTB wheel hubs and they are all Hope.


----------



## robdamanii

Matt1986 said:


> You clearly understand very little about economics. I think you'll find the desire to maximise profit is fairly ubiquitous among capitalists, it's simply that Chinese manufacturers happen to have a comparative advantage in labour-intensive, low-value added production whereas companies like Pinarello are more specialised and offer the customer service standards you speak of as part of the pricetag when you fork out for a Dogma 2. It says nothing of the moral qualities of either business, but is merely a reflection of companies operating out of countries at differing stages of development and with different resources at hand.
> 
> It is also a two-way relationship. China's biggest export markets are the US and Europe, the trade involved far outstripping domestic consumption. It's 'westerners' - both individuals and corporations - who fuel demand for Chinese products; without their willing participation in this trade cheap Chinese goods wouldn't exist. And if you're so upset about counterfeited goods, perhaps you should petition big bike companies to cease outsourcing production to China in order to exploit cheap labour, therefore providing the facilities, technology and designs that enable copies to be produced. What's that, they won't listen to you? Oh, that's right, they too are looking to make a buck by any means possible.
> 
> As I said, borderline racism.



Bull. Economics is no reason for any company to treat the customers that pay its bills like crap. they could very easily have refunded the guys money as they (disingenuously) led him to believe. No, they chose to receive his frame THEN tell him to piss off. That level of crappy service is almost exclusive to Chinese manufacturers who have no outside oversight. 

It's happened with titanium frames, carbon frames and all manner of other Chinese direct parts. It's a simple fact that these direct companies have no regard whatsoever for their customers, simply seeing them as money. Once they have money in hand they couldn't care less if their product killed your entire family. 

That's unacceptable. Period. Doesn't matter if it's Chinese, Russian, American or French. You treat people that poorly and you deserve the negative publicity and distaste that you earned. 

Screw 'em. When they learn that doing the right thing won't cost them the farm, I'll change my opinion. Call it racist if you want. It's realist.


----------



## Mdeth1313

This is why I opted to purchase a used TT frame rather than go the chinese route. If anything was wrong w/ the frame, I would have been screwed.

This just makes me realize I took the right path.


----------



## qatarbhoy

*Come off it Rob...*



robdamanii said:


> Bull. Economics is no reason for any company to treat the customers that pay its bills like crap. they could very easily have refunded the guys money as they (disingenuously) led him to believe. No, they chose to receive his frame THEN tell him to piss off. That level of crappy service is almost exclusive to Chinese manufacturers who have no outside oversight.


... you can read stories like this on many of the manufacturers' forums on RBR, just about every time 1. a manufacturer refuses a warranty claim and 2., every time another custom builder screws someone out of $$$. As a BMC and Trek owner I know those companies have both been accused on this forum of poor customer service by irate riders (my experience with both has been positive, FWIW).

And yet... no-one ever reaches for anti-Swiss/American/French/Italian comments in those threads. That seems to be reserved exclusively for the Chinese, who nonetheless make just about everybody's frames now anyway, including those badged 'Made in Italy' or with Swiss flags on. 

So yes, I'll call it racist because there seems to be a double standard at work.


----------



## danl1

Rep must be spread before giving it again...


No doubt that this is a lousy example of customer service. But no way I'd broad-brush an entire nation on that basis. And sure, there are other examples, but there are good experiences a-plenty, too. It only means one may need to be alert wondering from familiar territory.

We can say "Caveat Emptor" without broadbrushing an entire country.


----------



## robdamanii

qatarbhoy said:


> ... you can read stories like this on many of the manufacturers' forums on RBR, just about every time 1. a manufacturer refuses a warranty claim and 2., every time another custom builder screws someone out of $$$. As a BMC and Trek owner I know those companies have both been accused on this forum of poor customer service by irate riders (my experience with both has been positive, FWIW).
> 
> And yet... no-one ever reaches for anti-Swiss/American/French/Italian comments in those threads. That seems to be reserved exclusively for the Chinese, who nonetheless make just about everybody's frames now anyway, including those badged 'Made in Italy' or with Swiss flags on.
> 
> So yes, I'll call it racist because there seems to be a double standard at work.


Because there's no universally poor "Swiss" or "American" customer service. There are bad companies for sure and I have no problem pointing out that bad service. 

Again, there is qc and oversight for these companies. Not so for Chinese companies. When they take customer service and qc seriously, I'll take them seriously.


----------



## robdamanii

danl1 said:


> Rep must be spread before giving it again...
> 
> 
> No doubt that this is a lousy example of customer service. But no way I'd broad-brush an entire nation on that basis. And sure, there are other examples, but there are good experiences a-plenty, too. It only means one may need to be alert wondering from familiar territory.
> 
> We can say "Caveat Emptor" without broadbrushing an entire country.


Lead in kids toys, poisonous pet food, poor quality workmanship, no customer service, counterfeiting. 

I have no trouble saying "caveat emptor" about the entire country. Being complacent about those things simply admits well sacrifice everything for cost which is a pathetic attitude.


----------



## Urb

robdamanii said:


> Lead in kids toys, poisonous pet food, poor quality workmanship, no customer service, counterfeiting.
> 
> I have no trouble saying "caveat emptor" about the entire country. Being complacent about those things simply admits well sacrifice everything for cost which is a pathetic attitude.


No doubt poor quality products come from China. Well documented however the same can be said for ALL countries and I come up with many examples.

I cannot categorically say that about all companies and product coming from China. It's all about quality control. There are manufactures in China that produce very high quality merchandise. For example, there is a Chinese factory making knifes for an American company known for quality called Spiderco. In particular the product named Tenacious. Incredible value for about a third of the price of a similar American made product. Let me state it again, same quality for a third of the price for a similar American made product.

By all means push back when you get a bad product. It's in the Chinese (and most other) culture to resist giving back money. 

Keep in mind that the complaints about crap product is coming from someone trying buy a product for ~$500 that is usually sold for ~$2000. There are going to be hiccups. To believe otherwise is both foolish and ignorant.


----------



## robdamanii

Urb said:


> No doubt poor quality products come from China. Well documented however the same can be said for ALL countries and I come up with many examples.
> 
> I cannot categorically say that about all companies and product coming from China. It's all about quality control. There are manufactures in China that produce very high quality merchandise. For example, there is a Chinese factory making knifes for an American company known for quality called Spiderco. In particular the product named Tenacious. Incredible value for about a third of the price of a similar American made product. Let me state it again, same quality for a third of the price for a similar American made product.
> 
> By all means push back when you get a bad product. It's in the Chinese (and most other) culture to resist giving back money.
> 
> Keep in mind that the complaints about crap product is coming from someone trying buy a product for ~$500 that is usually sold for ~$2000. There are going to be hiccups. To believe otherwise is both foolish and ignorant.


You're absolutely right that some quality goods come out of china. But like you said, under supervision from outside companies. 

Factory direct, no way. As you state: you get what you pay for. If you shell out $500 hoping you get $2k worth of product, you'll get something iffy.


----------



## Kennyo

*Titanium should always get special consideration.*

There are a lot of materials that can be manufactured with a lot of different methods. Titanium is not one of them. I would be extremely discriminating in who I bought a titanium frame from. Take, for example, the most critical factor in a Ti frame: the welds. If a welder failed to adequately protect the welds from atmosphere while molten, they would severely discolor. Some quick wire brushing and polishing would take care of the appearance, and no one would know that the Ductile-brittle transition zone is now elevated to room temperature until it catastrophically failed in a ride.

I would only buy Ti frames from a highly reputable company for this reason, if no other.

The deformed tube sounds like a stress-relief issue, which is another critical processing element of titanium as well.


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

robdamanii said:


> Lead in kids toys, poisonous pet food, poor quality workmanship, no customer service, counterfeiting. ...


I do not think these issues are only concentrated to the above mentioned country.


----------



## My Own Private Idaho

OP, now you're just making yourself look bad. Its time to stop.


----------



## BernyMac

markrhino said:


> *I would like to know, should i remove these posts?
> Should i demand the money back for the bolts or cut my losses?*
> 
> PS I told Anita i would stop posting now i have been refunded shipping (i lied) but she also said she would refund my money if i returned the frame, so i guess we're even.


Should you remove these posts??? What was the condition that YOU specified would facilitate the removal of the posts? If that has been met, then it would be prudent to do so or risk turning into the villain. 

If there is one thing that I learned in life...if you are winning, be quiet and retire while you are on top.


----------



## markrhino

For what its worth i never created this post as an anti-Chinese thread. The reason i bought the frame was because i had read and seen enough posts here describing/showing good experiences.
I believe there is absolutely no room for racism on this forum.
The reason i wrote this thread was to send a warning to others thinking of purchasing from this company and to share my experience (even though its crap).
Lets stay on topic. I'd rather 'i told u so's' or ' i would never be that stupid' comments than racist ones.


----------



## WTFcyclist

Maybe Titan (China) and with Stradalli (USA) has the same returning policy.

Their return policy
"...we will refund all expense including freight shipping back if frame realy useless..."

LOL, the frame is not that useless! Even if you cannot install the headset to your frame, you can decorate your garage wall with a titanium bike frame to impress your friend. :thumbsup:

Here is the thread about Stradalli and its customer service.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/stradalli-carbom-frames-213874-5.html


----------



## Kontact

Part of the problem here is that they made the headtube out of .9mm tubing. Everyone else uses much thicker material for the headtube. Of course it warped. This is the point I make all the time about having people who don't care about bikes build them.


----------



## robdamanii

WTFcyclist said:


> Maybe Titan (China) and with Stradalli (USA) has the same returning policy.
> 
> Their return policy
> "...we will refund all expense including freight shipping back if frame realy useless..."
> 
> LOL, the frame is not that useless! Even if you cannot install the headset to your frame, you can decorate your garage wall with a titanium bike frame to impress your friend. :thumbsup:
> 
> Here is the thread about Stradalli and its customer service.
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/stradalli-carbom-frames-213874-5.html


Stradelli sources their raw frames from China as well. Same thing, you just pay for paint.


----------



## petraa

qatarbhoy said:


> ... you can read stories like this on many of the manufacturers' forums on RBR, just about every time 1. a manufacturer refuses a warranty claim and 2., every time another custom builder screws someone out of $$$.


It would be nice to be able to find reliable information about customers issues with manufacturers and frame builders. I want to hear good things _and_ bad things when reviewing products. 

A earlier this year a friend of mine had a go-round with a "legendary" US ti frame builder over a poorly built frame. The builder tried to blame the frame's problems on the customer. The builder eventually, grudgingly, took the frame back for a partial refund. There was lively discussion about this frame on another popular bike forums. The thread was removed by the mods. Anyone searching for information about whether this builder is good to deal with or not will only find glowing reviews. :mad2:


----------



## AnitaZhang

The reason we don't agree to refund is because we believed the frame headtube have no problem. We have been suggested to send frame back to Mr. Mark after we prove frame is fit well with headtube and headset. But he refused. 

Mr. Mark sent dispute to Aliexpress when he was shipping frame back. We just submited evidence to Aliexpress. At end Aliexpress ruled refunding to Mr. Mark. We also have no problem for that. But Aliexpress didn't ask us to send freight back. Same for bolts. What we do is just follow judgment from Aliexpress and Paypal. 

I understand Mr.Mark is angry for lost money. I've refunded 120 dollars to Mr. Mark last week. And Mr. Mark promised to remove this thread. But he didn't. I sincerely hope Mr. Mark can do what he promised. If we have been hurted you, you've got your payback now. But your thread will hurt our company name and my name for ever. This is not a decent person should do.


----------



## AnitaZhang

SOX 404 said:


> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


Thanks. There is video which we shot when we assembled frame.
Frame Headtube -


----------



## SOX 404

AnitaZhang said:


> understand Mr.Mark is angry for lost money. I've refunded 120 dollars to Mr. Mark last week.


I'm shaking my head and laughing; at the same time amuzed and confused. I thought the dispute was about thousand of dollars. It's only 120 bucks? Heheh... it's a bill for one person dining at a steak house. Company's reputation damaged over 120 bucks, defected product, poor and rude customer service. I still don't understand the way you are thinking. I'm speechless.


----------



## AnitaZhang

Unfotunately this event has been turned to an attack for "Made-in-China". I'm very sorry for our fellows who are working for reputation of Chinese products. I was the one "black sheep" in family. But please trust me that we are not as bad as they say. We have won a lot of praise by our products quality. Here you can see by below link. 
Alibaba Manufacturer Directory - Suppliers, Manufacturers, Exporters & Importers
titanproducts
Certainly we have learn lessons from this time. We will continute inproving our product quality and service.


----------



## AnitaZhang

SOX 404 said:


> I'm shaking my head and laughing; at the same time amuzed and confused. I thought the dispute was about thousand of dollars. It's only 120 bucks? Heheh... it's a bill for one person dining at a steak house. Company's reputation damaged over 120 bucks, defected product, poor and rude customer service. I still don't understand the way you are thinking. I'm speechless.


It's not about how much money. It's about right and wrong. In which way you think I'm rude?


----------



## AnitaZhang

SOX 404 said:


> I'm shaking my head and laughing; at the same time amuzed and confused. I thought the dispute was about thousand of dollars. It's only 120 bucks? Heheh... it's a bill for one person dining at a steak house. Company's reputation damaged over 120 bucks, defected product, poor and rude customer service. I still don't understand the way you are thinking. I'm speechless.


In which way you think I'm rude?


----------



## qatarbhoy

SOX 404 said:


> I'm shaking my head and laughing; at the same time amuzed and confused. I thought the dispute was about thousand of dollars. It's only 120 bucks? Heheh... it's a bill for one person dining at a steak house. Company's reputation damaged over 120 bucks, defected product, poor and rude customer service. I still don't understand the way you are thinking. I'm speechless.


You are indeed confused.

The $120 was just the shipping costs. The OP originally quoted Titan $700 as the cost to ship the bike back to them but eventually found a much cheaper shipping option. Anita is pointing out that the shipping cost was refunded to the customer last week as well as the refund for the frame as per the the Aliexpress ruling.


----------



## AnitaZhang

qatarbhoy said:


> You are indeed confused.
> 
> The $120 was just the shipping costs. The OP originally quoted Titan $700 as the cost to ship the bike back to them but eventually found a much cheaper shipping option. Anita is pointing out that the shipping cost was refunded to the customer last week as well as the refund for the frame as per the the Aliexpress ruling.


Yes, exactly. The aliexpress didn't ruled us to refund shipping cost. Then this thread happend.


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

Even if Mark (OP) and Anita has already agreed to a set of circumstances that the OP will remove this thread, I don't think he can do it, can he? It is up to the mods.


----------



## robdamanii

AnitaZhang said:


> Unfotunately this event has been turned to an attack for "Made-in-China". I'm very sorry for our fellows who are working for reputation of Chinese products. I was the one "black sheep" in family. But please trust me that we are not as bad as they say. We have won a lot of praise by our products quality. Here you can see by below link.
> Alibaba Manufacturer Directory - Suppliers, Manufacturers, Exporters & Importers
> titanproducts
> Certainly we have learn lessons from this time. We will continute inproving our product quality and service.


You realize that most of us who take our bikes seriously don't believe a WORD of that bullcrap that Aliexpress has on it. 

Only an idiot would send money to someone who advertises on a site named after a guy who headed up a band of forty thieves. 


Furthermore, this thread should stay up so people can be wary of the kind of "customer service" you offer. Decent product or not (obviously not in this case, as pointed out by three presumably competent bike shops) this is part of doing business, so deal with it.


----------



## xjbaylor

robdamanii said:


> . Not so for Chinese companies. When they take customer service and qc seriously, I'll take them seriously.


First of all, I don't buy this empty claim for a minute, I have seen enough of your rants towards the Chinese builders, and even those who choose to buy from them. 

Check out the last few pages of the "Chinese wheels" thread. Farsports has sent out new hubs on the word of buyers who claimed their hubs seized. The salesperson admitted they had received complaints about that hub so they were sourcing new hubs and replacing, pretty much no questions asked, the hubs of people who had experienced issues. 

It still isn't perfect, but they are trying to keep their customers happy just like any US based company would. If you think that _every_ US based frame builder would _gladly_ provide a full refund after building a custom Ti frame that _they believe_ falls into their specs you are delusional. Some would, but for a small company the cost of the stock going into a Ti bike isn't cheap.

Anita claims that the pic wasn't a good representation of the fit of the frame, but you have no way of proving that the fork was fully seated do you? Instead you simply spout insults about _people_ you have never met or dealt with. Believe it or not, Chinese framebuilders are people, not some faceless evil you have to fight with blind hatred and vitriol. 

No one says that you have to buy from a Chinese direct builder, but at least learn to treat them, and those on the forum that buy from them, with some respect.


----------



## Kontact

AnitaZhang said:


> The reason we don't agree to refund is because we believed the frame headtube have no problem. We have been suggested to send frame back to Mr. Mark after we prove frame is fit well with headtube and headset. But he refused.
> 
> Mr. Mark sent dispute to Aliexpress when he was shipping frame back. We just submited evidence to Aliexpress. At end Aliexpress ruled refunding to Mr. Mark. We also have no problem for that. But Aliexpress didn't ask us to send freight back. Same for bolts. What we do is just follow judgment from Aliexpress and Paypal.
> 
> I understand Mr.Mark is angry for lost money. I've refunded 120 dollars to Mr. Mark last week. And Mr. Mark promised to remove this thread. But he didn't. I sincerely hope Mr. Mark can do what he promised. If we have been hurted you, you've got your payback now. But your thread will hurt our company name and my name for ever. This is not a decent person should do.


Anita,

This is a proper titanium headtube:

38mm TITANIUM HEAD TUBE 230mm :: TUBES TITANIUM :: Nova Cycles Supply Inc.

You'll note it has a wall thickness of 2.15mm, not .9mm.

This thread isn't just about your poor customer service, it is about your quality control. Why is your company using .9mm tubing for the head tube? That is certainly not "normal" for titanium bikes. I've seen many different Ti bikes going back to 1990, and none of them had as thin a head tube stock as you used which caused this problem.

Until your company starts building the frames out of the proper materials, I don't see how you're not going to have more warped head tubes and unhappy customers.


----------



## robdamanii

xjbaylor said:


> First of all, I don't buy this empty claim for a minute, I have seen enough of your rants towards the Chinese builders, and even those who choose to buy from them.
> 
> Check out the last few pages of the "Chinese wheels" thread. Farsports has sent out new hubs on the word of buyers who claimed their hubs seized. The salesperson admitted they had received complaints about that hub so they were sourcing new hubs and replacing, pretty much no questions asked, the hubs of people who had experienced issues.
> 
> It still isn't perfect, but they are trying to keep their customers happy just like any US based company would. If you think that _every_ US based frame builder would _gladly_ provide a full refund after building a custom Ti frame that _they believe_ falls into their specs you are delusional. Some would, but for a small company the cost of the stock going into a Ti bike isn't cheap.
> 
> Anita claims that the pic wasn't a good representation of the fit of the frame, but you have no way of proving that the fork was fully seated do you? Instead you simply spout insults about _people_ you have never met or dealt with. Believe it or not, Chinese framebuilders are people, not some faceless evil you have to fight with blind hatred and vitriol.
> 
> No one says that you have to buy from a Chinese direct builder, but at least learn to treat them, and those on the forum that buy from them, with some respect.


I've read that thread, as well as the Farsports thread on WW. I see them having a dedicated push for customer service, and for that I applaud them for it. Would I buy from them? Maybe yes, maybe no. That's a far cry from the "no" when talking about "Anita" and Titan.

And frankly, I don't give a damn what Anita claims. Why should I? She already tried to say there was nothing wrong with the frame after it was clearly pointed out (by three presumably competent shops) that it was improperly built. I'd sooner believe a third party than I would a representative of the manufacturer any day of the week. Especially after she assures a refund and then forces the OP to go through a dispute process to get it.

So tell me why again I should believe a word of what she says? 

As to your comment about a small builder not replacing a frame, the bad press from a poorly built frame and no corrective action would be far more costly than fixing the frame. Yes, CS screwups happen, but more often than not the reputable company will work with the customer to fix the issue and preserve their reputation. 

Finally why should I show "a Chinese direct builder...and those on the forum that buy from them" any respect when I see these kinds of threads? You get what you pay for, and if you buy trash, you get trash. I have no sympathy for companies that see customers as nothing but cash cows, and I have no sympathy for people who are too cheap to buy branded goods and then b!tch about the quality.


----------



## qatarbhoy

*Back to kindergarten for you, Rob!*



robdamanii said:


> Only an idiot would send money to someone who advertises on a site named after a guy who headed up a band of forty thieves.


Ali Baba didn't run the gang, he was an honest man who found their loot and killed the leader.

Ali Baba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## robdamanii

qatarbhoy said:


> Ali Baba didn't run the gang, he was an honest man who found their loot and killed the leader.
> 
> Ali Baba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Never read the history of that. Interesting to say the least.

I learned something today, and something much more valuable than which Chinese company will (try to) rip you off.


----------



## FTR

Not going to defend either party here.
Purchasing from a chinese frame builder is fraught with danger.
On top of the language barrier (you likely speak less Mandarin or Cantonese than they speak English) there is the knowledge of what actually works geometry wise and in this case tubing wise.
I have seen before where the Chinese will build exactly what is sent to them.
If you sign off on the design then that is what is built.
If they sent you a design where it states .9mm tubing, and you sign off on it, then that is what you get.
Also, were you able to stipulate the type of tubing to suit your purpose and weight?
Would you even know what you needed if you could?
$700 is cheap even in Chinese ti these days.
I have to wonder why.


----------



## qatarbhoy

robdamanii said:


> Never read the history of that. Interesting to say the least.
> 
> I learned something today, and something much more valuable than which Chinese company will (try to) rip you off.


I think we've all learned something from this thread. 

Usually I respect what you have to say Rob, but I think you've been well out of line to Anita personally and about Chinese companies and China in general.


----------



## robdamanii

qatarbhoy said:


> I think we've all learned something from this thread.
> 
> Usually I respect what you have to say Rob, but I think you've been well out of line to Anita personally and about Chinese companies and China in general.


To each their own. I have no respect for companies that try to screw their customers, and I have even less respect for their idiot CS reps that show up to defend their employer in the public domain.

Not a single word should have come out of her mouth aside from "we're in contact with the frame owner and will resolve this problem to the best of our ability."


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## bottecchia_eja

qatarbhoy said:


> Ali Baba didn't run the gang, he was an honest man who found their loot and killed the leader.
> 
> Ali Baba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You are right, Ali Baba was a young man, not the leader of a band of thieves.


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## mumbadownunder

*Chinese Ti*

Couldn't resist this thread! 

I'm a friend of Mark's. Heard the whole sob story. Shocking. 

But it's kind of silly to bag a whole country's manufacturing capability on the evidence of a few bad experiences. 

In the States I used to be an Airborne dealer. Built up and sold lots of very nice Chinese made titanium frame bikes with impeccable welds, precise geometry, and gorgeous finishes. When there's a reasonable amount of oversight, you get the product you want, or you choose another factory. Jamie Radden used to fly back and forth pretty frequently between the US and China to help them keep their eye on the ball. 

I also remember Gary Fisher lamenting the fact that what was spec'd on frame plans, things like head tube angles, top tube length, you know, trivial stuff, was quite variable from overseas factories. Buyer beware indeed. 

What really concerns me in regard to these "custom" frame manufacturers is their offer of almost unlimited variability of tube shapes, sizes, angles, based on buyer preference. But when I buy a frame, I know I'm not a frame builder. I'm a mechanic. I don't design frames and I don't profess to be an expert on the subject. I know what I like. I like frame builders with many years of experience that can design a frame that maximizes torsional stiffness, vertical compliance, stability at speed and nimbleness in tight singletrack and do all this in a final, drop-dead-gorgeous package. Frames have personality. You feel that, every moment of every ride. Everything else is replaceable. Skimp on the frame and, well, you get what you pay for. That frame Mark received was like a Frankenstein monster. He never even mentioned their whacky idea of internal cable routing. Hair raising large holes drilled in the down tube and Chainstay. It's lucky the head tube was warped in the final welding. The rest of the frame looked horrible. In the end, if it's too good to be true, well......


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## shabbasuraj

You saw that too huh? I mean that cable hole.... was just...


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## mumbadownunder

*Big holes*

Did a cross race a couple of weeks ago. Still picking mud out of my hair, ears....

Those big holes would attract mud, it would dry inside the frame tubes, and lots of little hard maniacal mud balls would rattle around in there driving poor Mark to distraction. That is if the frame just doesn't fail altogether.


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## acg

I have to agree with MumbaDownUnder's comments.

I have a wonderful Chinese-made Airborne MTB as well as a US-made Merlin road bike. Both ride well. The Airborne frame has pretty nice welds.

I also work in the manufacturing industry in the States, but have been to China many times for work. There are some manufacturers in China who have the capacity to do excellent work and produce high quality products. The key is constant monitoring of the design standards and production quality.

This thread should not be a bash China in general topic. However, one does take the risk to buy direct from a supplier who little recourse for warranty or aftermarket service. There is the inherent risk which buyer has to undertake. In this case, Anita still has to make make amends for the quality issues. But Mark has to recognise this risk that paying less would entail that he has to deal in this uncomfortable relationship directly with Anita, albeit with the language barrier.

If the head tube thickness requirement is substantial issue as Kontact mentioned, I hope Anita takes this as an opportunity to address the design flaw.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

I thought they would have sent out a schematic drawing of the frame showing all the details. Upon acceptance by the customer, and only then do they proceed.


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## cxboy

markrhino said:


> Currently Anita from Xi'an Titan Product is blackmailing me saying she will only refund me if i remove my posts.


I dont blame her.....Its the cost of doing business oversea's


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## cxboy

AnitaZhang said:


> This is what you say useless frame


Looks fine to me


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## cxboy

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> Even if Mark (OP) and Anita has already agreed to a set of circumstances that the OP will remove this thread, I don't think he can do it, can he? It is up to the mods.


I think they should kiss and make up...If they fall in love Mark can have all the ti frames he wants and it will be a better world......:idea:


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## mrbubbles

Was the frame built to spec requested by customer? Should've declined if you saw 0.9mm thick headtubes.


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## mavisto

For what it's worth, I had a good experience with Titan. I was prepared to take the risk of a total cock up, but I think I've got a fantastic bike.

The build has gone very smoothly apart from one little hiccup with the headset. I had originally asked for a Campagnolo 45/45 headtube without knowing exactly what that meant because that was what was on my other frame. I assumed that Titan would know, but apparently they don't.

FYI a Campag standard 45/45 headset has bearings with an OD of 41.8mm. Titan prepared the headtube to what I now know as IS41 or Cane Creek standard which has bearings with an OD of 41.1mm. It was detailed on their drawings that the headtube would be cut to 41.2mm, but at the
time, I didn't know that the Campag one was bigger. 

After a few attempts at fitting the Campag headset I had bought, I took it to the LBS to see if they could ream the headtube. The guy then got out his fancy bearing/headtube template and told me that the headtube wasn't Campag fit anyway. Conclusion to the story, no work needed to the frame, pocket was £40 lighter but filled with a Cane Creek 40 headset that fitted perfectly.

The build has been completed with Campag 10 speed gearing, brakes and hubs, DT Swiss R1.1 rims, ITM stem and bars, Stronglight 50/34 chainset and a Brooks saddle.

Have a look in my album at the photos, I'll be adding more soon.


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## Kontact

mavisto said:


> For what it's worth, I had a good experience with Titan. I was prepared to take the risk of a total cock up, but I think I've got a fantastic bike.
> 
> The build has gone very smoothly apart from one little hiccup with the headset. I had originally asked for a Campagnolo 45/45 headtube without knowing exactly what that meant because that was what was on my other frame. I assumed that Titan would know, but apparently they don't.
> 
> FYI a Campag standard 45/45 headset has bearings with an OD of 41.8mm. Titan prepared the headtube to what I now know as IS41 or Cane Creek standard which has bearings with an OD of 41.1mm. It was detailed on their drawings that the headtube would be cut to 41.2mm, but at the
> time, I didn't know that the Campag one was bigger.
> 
> After a few attempts at fitting the Campag headset I had bought, I took it to the LBS to see if they could ream the headtube. The guy then got out his fancy bearing/headtube template and told me that the headtube wasn't Campag fit anyway. Conclusion to the story, no work needed to the frame, pocket was £40 lighter but filled with a Cane Creek 40 headset that fitted perfectly.
> 
> The build has been completed with Campag 10 speed gearing, brakes and hubs, DT Swiss R1.1 rims, ITM stem and bars, Stronglight 50/34 chainset and a Brooks saddle.
> 
> Have a look in my album at the photos, I'll be adding more soon.


So, was the headtube made with .9mm tubestock?


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## mavisto

Kontact said:


> So, was the headtube made with .9mm tubestock?


If I'm honest, I don't know.

The shape and internal structure of an integrated headset are totally different from a standard one. There are no measurements for the wall thickness of the headtube given on the drawings because the wall thickness varies depending on the on where the bearing surface is.

Given an external diameter of 45mm and an internal bearing diameter of 41.2mm, the difference divided by 2 gives me a wall thickness at the top and bottom of the headtube of 1.9mm.


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## Coolhand

*Moderators Note*

Enough of the political nonsense stay on topic please. The thread is cleaned up.


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## Ryyder

Gotta love Chinese


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## FTR

Ryyder said:


> Gotta love Chinese


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## markrhino

FWIW, there was no indication of tube thickness on the frames plans. Something i should have checked had known what i do now.
However, what frame manufacturer uses the same thickness on head tubes as the rest of the frame?
mumbadownunder is right (bastard. This is why you pay more for a _real_ professional frame builder. They know what they're doing.


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## mavisto

I've been looking around to see what a 'standard' headtube wall thickness should be. Found this comment on http://www.henryjames.com/faq.html.

"Makers of welded frames never talk about how welding involves melting the metal, and the shrinking that has to occur as the weld joint cools off generates high forces that can and do distort the tubes. Lugged steel bikes only require a head tube wall of .9 mm (.035"). Head tubes for welded bikes are 1.2-1.5 mm thick (.05"-.06") so that there is enough metal to ream for the head set races. The thicker head tube walls make it easier to weld the thinner top and down tubes to the head tube. Welded bikes have head tubes that can weigh more than a pair of lugs and a thin head tube. "


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

The bike is all built up and has been used for sometime ... love the feeling of a relaxed geometry titanium frame, very giving and comfortable ...


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## sthornington

Well, I just ordered a titanium road fork from Anita/Titan, we shall see how it goes. I'm trying to fit it on an old Dean El Diente I picked up off of eBay, because I find the Ritchey Comp Carbon fork I put on very twisty and frankly sometimes a little scary at high speed. 

I think there is definitely a demand for quality, inexpensive titanium frames and parts, and I am encouraged that Anita took the time to post here. I hope that the above was basically a misunderstanding about what is "quality" or "correct" in bicycle parts. Quality control means not shipping parts that aren't, essentially, perfect. 

If Anita/Titan can maintain an active customer support presence, I suspect that word-of-mouth will work both ways (ie. for the good of the firm's reputation), but the first step is quality control.

I will let you know how it goes.


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## artnshel

I've been thinking of ordering a Xi'an Titan mtb frame for a few months and am almost ready to go. This doesn't make the decision easier but I agree that one of the biggest challenges is not knowing the nuances of frame design.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

artnshel said:


> I've been thinking of ordering a Xi'an Titan mtb frame for a few months and am almost ready to go. This doesn't make the decision easier but I agree that one of the biggest challenges is not knowing the nuances of frame design.


Get the geometry of a frame that you have used and have been very happy with ... Just don't over customise it ... Eg like wanting internal cable routing ...


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## pmf

There's no substitute for customer service. A policy of "the customer is always right" can go a long way to a successful business. 

The broken Engwish was nice touch too.


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## sthornington

Customer service is important, but you can't fault someone for their English -- my Mandarin is terrible.


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## qatarbhoy

pmf said:


> There's no substitute for customer service. A policy of "the customer is always right" can go a long way to a successful business.
> 
> The broken Engwish was nice touch too.


There's plenty of broken English on display from native speakers on this forum, worse customer service, and far worse manners.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

If you face any problems with their frames, they will resolve the issue with you ...


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## ultimo

First post


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## ultimo

Second Post- Live and let live.


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## ultimo

Third Post- There are always two sides to a coin


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## ultimo

Sometimes cultural differences can lead to misunderstandings


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## FTR

ultimo said:


> Sometimes cultural differences can lead to misunderstandings


Use the new members thread.


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## sthornington

After a false start where they shipped me a fork that didn't fit a 700c wheel that I subsequently returned, the second fork arrived two weeks ago and I just got around to putting it on yesterday. It looks good, works well, so after all, I have no complaints.


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## jpap

markrhino said:


> FWIW, there was no indication of tube thickness on the frames plans. Something i should have checked had known what i do now.
> However, what frame manufacturer uses the same thickness on head tubes as the rest of the frame?
> mumbadownunder is right (bastard. This is why you pay more for a _real_ professional frame builder. They know what they're doing.


Exactly, you should now heed your own advice.

Save up all your pennies and get yourself a Baum. Not only will you be getting a quality product you will be supporting the local economy instead of supporting a nation that exploits it's workforce and produces crap.


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## geteng

*Titan Product and Xi’an Changda – birds of a feather*

So sorry to hear about your Chinese titanium nightmare. I’d like to share mine about Titan’s fellow Ti fab in Xi’an, known as Xi’an Changda, or XACD. XACD is mentioned in your post as someone you thought about buying from but decided against because the customer service guy was such a pain. Well, you were right.

I should preface this by saying that I’ve been dealing with Chinese frame makers (in carbon) for a few years now and have had good luck. I’ve built some nice bikes for myself and others, and only had a problem once, in which case the company gave me a full refund.

Now, to this year. Normally a roadie, I am building a touring bike for some gravel road riding in the mountains. After some research, I decided to go with XACD, which claims to do OEM work for Western bike brands. I ordered one of XACD’s stock touring frames, with a long wheelbase, downtube shifters and canti bosses. I also ordered one of their seatposts, a seatpost clamp and – this is where the horror story begins – a fork. I said the fork had to work with the frame, so all was understood that I was building a touring rig (ie, it would need to have mid-leg eyelets for low-riders, take mudguards and have ample clearances). They sent me a drawing that said “700x32c” on it, which was great as I planned to put either 32 or 35c tires on the bike. Price for the fork: USD 250.

Received the shipment in a little over a month, and started to put the bike together (using a hybrid 105/Deore XT groupset). The XACD frame is really lovely, it has beautiful smooth welds and is nicely finished. The seatpost is also very nicely done. Everything went together smoothly, the BB cups and the headset all good. Then I fitted the fork and…uh oh. With a 35c tire there was only 2 mms of space between the top of the tire and the bottom of the fork crown – normally on a touring/cross fork one would have 25-40mms of clearance there. So, it was impossible to get the mudguard on. Side clearances and the canti bosses were fine, but the top clearance was simply wrong.

This is when their customer service guy’s true charms were revealed. I emailed thanking him for the lovely frame but saying the fork was not going to work – it was a not a touring fork, plain and simple. It had tight road bike-style (23c) clearance on the fork crown. He came back and said all their customers order touring and cyclo-cross forks with those dimensions (really?), I was wrong and – by the way – I had approved their drawing which showed the exact dimensions. Well, _mea culpa_, yes I had missed the fine print. But the drawing also said “700x32c” in much bigger print. And I had clearly stated I was building a touring bike. One would expect the manufacturer to know what they were doing and advise the client on what’s best. No chance. You saw the drawing, screw you, was their attitude. They refused a refund, but did offer to sell me a new fork with the correct dimensions for another $200. Their final suggestion was for me to switch to 26” wheels…oh sure, just let me pop out and buy a new wheelset. I was told sternly that I was being uncooperative and so they couldn’t help me; sounded like they had just arrested me.

Anyway, the end of the story is that the Ti fork is sitting in my garage and I’m thinking of a way to turn it in to a $250 plant hanger. As for the bike, I have ordered a Surly Long Haul Trucker cro-mo touring fork, from a real bike company that knows what it’s doing. I should have it all together soon.

It's a real pity. The XACD frame is very nice, as is their seatpost. But XACD’s “the customer is always wrong” attitude, downright rude service and lack of basic knowledge about bikes means they should be avoided.


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## aclinjury

1. That's typical China customer service.
2. Perhaps "touring bike" for the Chinese is different than from yours
3. You should have specified 700 x 35c, and not 700 x 32c, from the get-go
4. The fork is still servicable if you use a 32c tire right?

So in the end, while the fork did not ideally fit a 35c tires like you had hoped, but it's still servicable with a 32c tire (?), and I'd say you were partly to blame for not being totally explicit about your specs. An American custom builder may have accomodated you by exchanging to a new fork (no guarantee), but you would have also needed to pay a much higher price for the bike. So all in all, you probably still come out ahead financially with the Chinese. And had you spec'd the bike right with a 35c tire, everything would have worked out, and you'd be here writing a glowing review.

Personally, I would never deal with a ti bicycle from an internet Chinese company. Just not worth the hassle to me, and it's hard for me to understand why folks who deal with them and expect the gold or platinum customer service, and when they don't get this service, they go online complaining. Is it not common, world-wide knowledge, that Chinese customer service and Chinese products are "you get what you pay for" sort of quality? Chinese are not Moots.



geteng said:


> So sorry to hear about your Chinese titanium nightmare. I’d like to share mine about Titan’s fellow Ti fab in Xi’an, known as Xi’an Changda, or XACD. XACD is mentioned in your post as someone you thought about buying from but decided against because the customer service guy was such a pain. Well, you were right.
> 
> I should preface this by saying that I’ve been dealing with Chinese frame makers (in carbon) for a few years now and have had good luck. I’ve built some nice bikes for myself and others, and only had a problem once, in which case the company gave me a full refund.
> 
> Now, to this year. Normally a roadie, I am building a touring bike for some gravel road riding in the mountains. After some research, I decided to go with XACD, which claims to do OEM work for Western bike brands. I ordered one of XACD’s stock touring frames, with a long wheelbase, downtube shifters and canti bosses. I also ordered one of their seatposts, a seatpost clamp and – this is where the horror story begins – a fork. I said the fork had to work with the frame, so all was understood that I was building a touring rig (ie, it would need to have mid-leg eyelets for low-riders, take mudguards and have ample clearances). They sent me a drawing that said “700x32c” on it, which was great as I planned to put either 32 or 35c tires on the bike. Price for the fork: USD 250.
> 
> Received the shipment in a little over a month, and started to put the bike together (using a hybrid 105/Deore XT groupset). The XACD frame is really lovely, it has beautiful smooth welds and is nicely finished. The seatpost is also very nicely done. Everything went together smoothly, the BB cups and the headset all good. Then I fitted the fork and…uh oh. With a 35c tire there was only 2 mms of space between the top of the tire and the bottom of the fork crown – normally on a touring/cross fork one would have 25-40mms of clearance there. So, it was impossible to get the mudguard on. Side clearances and the canti bosses were fine, but the top clearance was simply wrong.
> 
> This is when their customer service guy’s true charms were revealed. I emailed thanking him for the lovely frame but saying the fork was not going to work – it was a not a touring fork, plain and simple. It had tight road bike-style (23c) clearance on the fork crown. He came back and said all their customers order touring and cyclo-cross forks with those dimensions (really?), I was wrong and – by the way – I had approved their drawing which showed the exact dimensions. Well, _mea culpa_, yes I had missed the fine print. But the drawing also said “700x32c” in much bigger print. And I had clearly stated I was building a touring bike. One would expect the manufacturer to know what they were doing and advise the client on what’s best. No chance. You saw the drawing, screw you, was their attitude. They refused a refund, but did offer to sell me a new fork with the correct dimensions for another $200. Their final suggestion was for me to switch to 26” wheels…oh sure, just let me pop out and buy a new wheelset. I was told sternly that I was being uncooperative and so they couldn’t help me; sounded like they had just arrested me.
> 
> Anyway, the end of the story is that the Ti fork is sitting in my garage and I’m thinking of a way to turn it in to a $250 plant hanger. As for the bike, I have ordered a Surly Long Haul Trucker cro-mo touring fork, from a real bike company that knows what it’s doing. I should have it all together soon.
> 
> It's a real pity. The XACD frame is very nice, as is their seatpost. But XACD’s “the customer is always wrong” attitude, downright rude service and lack of basic knowledge about bikes means they should be avoided.


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## geteng

Even a 32c tire will not fit in there and accomodate a mudguard. The largest tire that would go in there would be 25c. Anyway, the profile difference between a 32c and a 35c tire is minimal. With 'cross/touring forks you should be looking at *centimeters* of clearance at the crown, not *millimetres*. I have a Bontrager "Satellite" cross fork that has 3 cm of clearance using the same 35c tire. The frame itself is fine for tire and mudguard clearance, by the way. I asked that the fork match the frame, which was pretty specific but, yes, should have specified right down the the millimetre. As for the China bit, I've had very good luck with a number of manufacturers, and I live in China, so those are two pretty good reasons to deal with them.


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## eflayer2

My XACD ti road frame came to me via Davis Carver at Carver Bikes. I have owned many, many bikes over the last 15 years. Custom steel and off the rack steel. Custom ti and off the rack ti. A few off the rack carbons including S-Works Roubaix and Giant OCR-C. My ti frame via Carver is my favorite bike of all time. Davis was great to work with. Frame came out way better than I imagined, welds are competitive with any hi zoot US frame, and the price was decent or better.

Maybe a good middle man is worth the upcharge.


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## ac/bc

eflayer2 said:


> My XACD ti road frame came to me via *Davis Carver at Carver Bikes*. I have owned many, many bikes over the last 15 years. Custom steel and off the rack steel. Custom ti and off the rack ti. A few off the rack carbons including S-Works Roubaix and Giant OCR-C. My ti frame via Carver is my favorite bike of all time. Davis was great to work with. Frame came out way better than I imagined, welds are competitive with any hi zoot US frame, and the price was decent or better.
> 
> Maybe a good middle man is worth the upcharge.



Yep... I'd much rather put my dollars towards someone who can read shop drawings, has extensive knowledge into tube sizing, butting and geometries, a good working rapport with the builder and if all else fails, has the customer service to correct a mistake.





.


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## VON MANSTEIN

Everyone here believes that when Anita mentioned the frame tube being 0.9mm thick she was referring to the head tube. I think that is a mistake. Titan has informed me that for their stock bikes they use 2mm thick 6/4 Ti for their integrated head tubes and 3mm thick 3/2.5 for their PF BB30 bottom bracket shells. All other frame tubes are 0.9mm thick. Have to remember that Anita is Chinese and English is a second language. She (I believe) either made a mistake or was misunderstood when she mentioned a wall thickness of 0.9mm in association with the head-tube. They are not idiots, if they used 0.9mm head-tubes they would not still be in business, since they would all warp badly and be unusable. For a custom build bike with 44mm internal diameter external head-tube they use 3mm thick 3/2.5 Ti. Cheers!


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## Tachycardic

It's really too bad that the OP had such a bad experience. At the end of the day, all any of us really wants is a quality product at a good price and with minimal hassle. While many Chinese-made products can offer these qualities, it's clear that more progress is needed. Still it's important to NOT lump all Chinese-made products and companies into the same 'crap' category as some of you have.

Here are some additional observations...
1) I would have never had the 1st LBS install the headset. I'm assuming that this was your 'go to' LBS and trusted their judgement. If they said the frame was jacked up, then I would have contacted Anita right away. If I were Anita, I could have raised the possibility of the LBS damaging the head tube during the install. Why fuel the fire?

2) The fact that there are people in this tread that received good frames from this company should immediately raise red flags to future customers. It's a crap shoot. Yes, you may get a sweet frame inexpensively, or end up in a mess like this. I'll gladly pay more for a proper fitting, to voice my opinion on geometry, materials, frame construction, and excellent customer service.

3) Blaming a bad experience on broken English and things lost in translation just means that you didn't take the time to effectively communicate with the person on the other side, or document properly. I purchased a custom steel frame in Japan from a guy who did not speak English and I did not speak Japanese. However, we both spoke numbers and after a proper fitting, everything was documented on paper. When the frame arrived, it was exactly how I wanted it. 

Anyways, I do hope the OP was able to find another frame.


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## froze

So by poor communications it's the OP's fault for not speaking fluent Chinese and then the correct dialect for the person he was speaking to! I'm sorry but if the Chinese or anyone else who speaks a different language wants to do business with another country who speaks a different language it's up to the country selling the product to understand the other language not the other way around, and if there is a communication problem then the selling country should make it right. 

But this is China we're talking about, and China doesn't have to abide by any Western laws of doing business and cannot be forced to make things right by western law or lawyers. I mean if this is where you want to spend your money fine but beware of the risks involved. Now buying a product like the Carver who gets the frame from China is just fine and dandy because Carver is an American company and as an American company must abide by western laws or deal with attorneys if they decide not to; thus it's on Carver to attempt to get satisfaction for a frame problem from the Chinese and not on you. The Chinese are also more willing to satisfy a company like Carver because they're more interested in pleasing a large seller of their product whereas not pleasing one buyer is not a big deal.


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## Citad

Hi, I didn't read the whole subject but I do weld and it's just normal that any kind of part bends when you weld it. You can reduce this behaviour by many sorts of ways, but you can't avoid it completely. for a part that has very strict tolerances like a headtube, you just post machine them after they're been welded. It's called bore or boring and it's just normal to do it. Afterwards, you get perfect dimensions and alignment back. To me they should do this on every frame instead of simply checking tolerances.


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## pmf

This post is 10 years old. Last person who posted did so in 2015. 

Congrats on your first post. You get today's irrelevance award.


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## Lombard

pmf said:


> This post is 10 years old. Last person who posted did so in 2015.
> 
> Congrats on your first post. You get today's irrelevance award.


Well it is less than 10 years since the last post, so he doesn't owe us all a round of beers.


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