# Brand New Campy Chorus 11 - Multiple Issues - Help Please!!!



## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

I have recently received a brand new bike from a reputable, large, online retailer. The gruppo is Campagnolo Chorus 11 throughout. It appeared that two parts I received on my build were defective - the rear derailleur and the (righthand) rear shifter's thumb button. The build was performed by the online retailer.

The first issue I noticed was the chain was rubbing the rear derailleur cage next to the lower (tension) pulley, when in the big ring in front and smallest 3-4 cogs in the rear. It appeared the derailleur was bent so the retailer recommended taking to an LBS first to see if the hanger was bent. LBS, who is Campy certified and also have a great rep, concluded the hanger was very slightly bent but the derailleur was still rubbing as described above. The setup is 50/34 in front with an 11-25 cassette.

The second issue was the righthand thumb button would jam and not always on the same cog(s). LBS suggested asking the retailer to replace the shifter and the derailleur. The online retailer did exactly that and on Friday I had the same LBS install all the new parts including new cables and casings, and also replaced the left shifter too since they come in a consecutively numbered set. 

The overall shifting and performance of the bike is nearly perfect now, except one key problem - the chain is rubbing the rear derailleur cage in the same exact spot but this time only when in the big ring in front and smallest cog in the rear. When in this gear combination it also seems the derailleur is clicking a bit like it wants to shift down off of the final 11 tooth cog. At the same time this click occurs, the chain is slightly rubbing the derailleur cage as described above.

So the question - is this simply a setup issue like the lower limit screw, or is something really off for this same thing to happen with a new derailleur like it did with the first derailleur? I'm hoping there isn't something seriously wrong. Could it be Campy quality control? Could it be a misaligned crank or bent cassette? They seem straight to my untrained eye. The rear wheel seems perfectly straight when observed spinning between the seat stays.

Any help would be appreciated. I just want this problem solved so I can enjoy a new bike I should have began enjoying 2-3 weeks ago. 

I'm posting some pictures too so you can see the original issue with the first derailleur. The new derailleur hasn't worn any paint off yet like the second photo below, but it is currently rubbing when it the smallest cog. Also, the third picture still applies even to the new derailleur. However, I would describe it more as angled outward (not twisted outward) like it is pointing slightly to the right.


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## Lick Skillet (Aug 21, 2011)

Stop cross chaining and the problem will magically disappear.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

Lick Skillet said:


> Stop cross chaining and the problem will magically disappear.


How is big ring, small cog considered cross chaining?


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## Lick Skillet (Aug 21, 2011)

Misread your post, switch to Shimano.....


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lick Skillet said:


> Misread your post, switch to Shimano.....


brilliant...any of actual worth to add? 

i think it's gonna be pretty hard to say w/o seeing the bike in my stand. it could be that the hanger is still twisted a bit and the shop that worked on it just fixed the inward bend. odd, but it could happen. it could be the derailleur cage is slightly twisted as well, and aligning the hanger won't fix that. can you take a pic from directly above?


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

I agree w/CX wrench. Check the hangar alignment a 12-3-6 and 9 O'Clock positions. A lot of shops tend to only check 12 and 6. Beyond that it's time to get Campy on the phone and send pic's. They are great guys there and really know their stuff.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> brilliant...any of actual worth to add?
> 
> i think it's gonna be pretty hard to say w/o seeing the bike in my stand. it could be that the hanger is still twisted a bit and the shop that worked on it just fixed the inward bend. odd, but it could happen. it could be the derailleur cage is slightly twisted as well, and aligning the hanger won't fix that. can you take a pic from directly above?





rcharrette said:


> I agree w/CX wrench. Check the hangar alignment a 12-3-6 and 9 O'Clock positions. A lot of shops tend to only check 12 and 6. Beyond that it's time to get Campy on the phone and send pic's. They are great guys there and really know their stuff.




Thanks to both of you for the feedback. You are confirming that this is not normal correct? I just want to be sure that the chain should not be rubbing the rear cage and this isn't some 'feature' of Campy or something.

It seems reasonable to me that the hanger must be at play somehow. I would highly doubt I could possibly receive two defective rear derailleurs, but since the first rear shifter was also bad I'm losing confidence quickly in my purchase decision.

I'll probably take it back to the LBS again to have them check the hanger alignment again. You say the 3 & 9 O'clock positions should be checked? This seems like it would account for the outward angle I'm seeing at the lower part of the rear cage near the lower pulley. Horizontal alignment basically correct?

cxwrench - When you asked for a pic from directly above, do you mean with bike upright from above the rear derailleur? That angle is hard to photo because the cassette and frame are basically obscuring the line of sight. I could try flipping it over or getting a closer pic of #3 as posted above.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

Looks to me as if the derailleur hanger is bent. I'm thinking this could have happened during shipping.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

yeah, flipping the bike over and shooting from directly below would do as well. big ring, middle cog would be good to see what's up.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

Aikea Guinea said:


> The second issue was the righthand thumb button would jam and not always on the same cog(s).


 It's possible that there was nothing wrong with your shifter. Often the hood moves enough so that the slot for the thumb button closes just a bit and that can cause what you experienced. There are a some molded in 'posts' on the inside of the hood that fit into slots in the shifter body and if they aren't inserted properly it's more likely to happen. A bit of trimming to make the slot larger will cure the problem if it persists.


Al1943 said:


> Looks to me as if the derailleur hanger is bent. I'm thinking this could have happened during shipping.


It's hard to tell from a single pic but it sure appears that the derailleur isn't parallel. If anything, it looks to me like the hanger is up against the dropout while the dropout seems to have a slight taper.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

Here's another pic... I don't know if this is helpful or not. 










Looking carefully at the above, I note that the carbon frame's dropout is perfectly parallel to the cassette / chain, but the derailleur hanger does seem to have a slight bend which is the same degree as the derailleur cage by the lower pulley. This is shown as 9 O'clock in the photo, but the bike is upside down for this photo.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

This is for sure unusual. 

From eyeballing your first set of pics, I think the derailleur hanger is misaligned in two ways. First, when you look at it from behind, it is twisted slightly clockwise. Then, looking at it from above, it is twisted slightly clockwise. The combination of the two may explain the chain rub. 

I never had this problem, having installed/owned 6-7 Campagnolo-equipped bikes including four Chorus/Record 11 groupsets. 

Did the LBS check the hanger alignment with a proper tool, or did they just eyeball it? 

There is a very small possibility that the frame alignment is slightly off, which will throw things off quite a bit. I knew of a person who had similar issue with an older frame that was slightly misaligned. It had been cold-set from 126mm to 130mm and the setting was off. 

But as CXWrench said, this is all speculation and it's very hard to tell without having access to the bike. We can at least tell you this is unusual.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

orange_julius said:


> This is for sure unusual.
> 
> From eyeballing your first set of pics, I think the derailleur hanger is misaligned in two ways. First, when you look at it from behind, it is twisted slightly clockwise. Then, looking at it from above, it is twisted slightly clockwise. The combination of the two may explain the chain rub.
> 
> ...


If you are standing behind the bike with the bike upright, the bend is clockwise (CW), or to the right. If you look very carefully at the most recent photo above, the bike is upside down and the bend appears CCW at this vantage point, which is the same direction bend when viewing the bike upright and from behind. The bend or twist is pointing slightly away from the wheel.

Granted, this is much less noticeable and with no chain rub when in the middle cog as shown in the most recent photo above. [Probably cause there is more chain tension as you go to larger cogs up the cassette???]

If you also look carefully at the photo it also looks to me that the red derailleur hanger is bent in the same direction, possibly confirming a 3-9 O'clock misalignment. The carbon frame / dropout (gray painted) just to the right of the red hanger appears perfectly straight and parallel to the cogs and wheel.

I'm learning quickly here, but please correct me if I'm wrong on any assumptions.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

What with all the angled lines (crank, chainstay, chain left or right of chainline) crossing your or the camera's field of view, I think it's impossible to even guess at what's going on. As cxwrench said, you need to have the shop use its alignment tool in _both horizontal and vertical alignment_ to at least rule out a bent hanger/dropout. Takes about 5 minutes. For what it's worth: is the hanger attached tightly to the dropout? I'm seeing more and more brand-new bikes with loose hanger attachement screws.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Aikea Guinea said:


> If you are standing behind the bike with the bike upright, the bend is clockwise to the right. If you look carefully at the photo above, the bike is upside down and the bend is CCW which is the same direction bend, that is to say - CW if the bike were upright viewing from behind the bike. The bend or twist is pointing slightly away from the wheel.
> 
> Granted, this is much less noticeable and no rub when in the middle cog as shown in the most recent photo above. [Probably cause the is more chain tension as you go to larger cogs up the cassette???] If you look carefully at the photo it also looks to me that the red derailleur hanger is bent in the same direction, possibly confirming a 3-9 O'Clock misalignment. Compare to the gray carbon frame / dropout right next to it which appears perfectly straight and parallel to the cogs and wheel.
> 
> I'm learning quickly here, but please correct me if I'm wrong on any assumptions.


I think you got it. Whether all this stuff resolves your problem is hypothesis, but it's easy to verify by using a frame alignment tool and derailleur hanger alignment tool - NOT eyeballing. As many have shared on this forum, correcting for hanger alignment does wonders to shifting. 

And good point on the impact of chain tension. 

Also another point about older frames that I hope don't apply to your case. When they are partially retro-fitted with modern parts sometimes the overall alignment is off because of the Q factor of the cranks. This puts the chainrings on the wrong alignment (on the horz plane) relative to the modern cogs. 

On modern frames this might happen for unusually-sized frames, for example very small ones. This makes cross-chaining very noisy and then it's hard to get crisp shifting. But as you said, you have this problem when you are in the big ring / small cog combo. 

May I ask the distance from the BB center to the rear skewer on this frame?


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

wim said:


> What with all the angled lines (crank, chainstay, chain left or right of chainline) crossing your or the camera's field of view, I think it's impossible to even guess at what's going on. As cxwrench said, you need to have the shop use its alignment tool in _both horizontal and vertical alignment_ to at least rule out a bent hanger/dropout. Takes about 5 minutes. For what it's worth: is the hanger attached tightly to the dropout? I'm seeing more and more brand-new bikes with loose hanger attachement screws.


What, you aren't going to ask the person to bring out a 500mm lens to minimize the FoV distortion?


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

orange_julius said:


> I think you got it. Whether all this stuff resolves your problem is hypothesis, but it's easy to verify by using a frame alignment tool and derailleur hanger alignment tool - NOT eyeballing. As many have shared on this forum, correcting for hanger alignment does wonders to shifting.
> 
> And good point on the impact of chain tension.
> 
> ...


It's a 2012 Wilier Gran Turismo (XXL). The measurement (L1?) you are asking for is 40.5cm. Cranks are 175mm.

I just got off the phone with my LBS who said he always checks all around the wheel with the derailleur hanger tool. He said he "noticed the hanger is more flexy than he prefers" and suggested that bike manufacturers cut costs on hangers and get them from third parties these days. 

This sounds bogus to me that a brand new hanger from a respected brand, who has zero documented cases of inherent hanger failure, would be cause to accept this overall misalignment. Granted, I could always spend more on an even higher-end frame and gruppo but at this price, brand new, I don't see why it should be any less than spot on. 

I appreciate all the recommendations in this thread. However, I'm quite frustrated now at the situation. LBS did a nice job of replacing the derailleur and shifters and the overall shifting is quite good, but I don't get the mentality coming from the LBS that a crooked, chain-rubbing derailleur, with an over shifting / clicking 11 cog (w/ big ring in front) is as good as it gets.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Aikea Guinea said:


> It's a 2012 Wiler Gran Turismo (XXL). The measurement (L1?) you are asking for is 40.5cm. Cranks are 175mm.
> 
> I just got off the phone with my LBS who said he always checks all around the wheel with the derailleur hanger tool. He said he "noticed the hanger is more flexy than he prefers" and suggested that bike manufacturers cut costs on hangers and get them from third parties these days.
> 
> ...


If the LBS is confident that the issue is with a weak hanger - which by the way is not unfathomable from any bike brand - you should consider putting them to task by having them order a stiffer derailleur hanger. 

I understand your frustration at their notion of quality and I would not be happy with the way the bike is, but I wonder if they prefer to take a pass because you had bought the bike elsewhere. In this case then giving them a chance to put forth a solution exactly for the root cause they are claiming - the der hanger - may be a good way to align their interest to yours.


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## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

Aikea Guinea said:


> This sounds bogus to me that a brand new hanger from a respected brand, who has zero documented cases of inherent hanger failure, would be cause to accept this overall misalignment. Granted, I could always spend more on an even higher-end frame and gruppo but at this price, brand new, I don't see why it should be any less than spot on.


This does happen even on high end frames - Cervelos are notorious for it and it's been recommended to replace the der hanger before doing any 11s installation on Cervelo. Google "Cervelo hangar campy" to get some idea. And those are super expensive frames! So what your LBS is telling you may not be completely bogus.

Sorry I can't be more helpful though. Hope someone on here has the answer.


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## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

Looking at your pictures, I don't think the der hanger is bent, at least not much. Though I agree it's really hard to tell. Ders always look a bit funny / not centred when you look hard at them. The chain sure makes a HUGE angle change when it comes off the bottom pulley and heads for the chainset. Which is odd.

Even if your hanger is a bit flexy, that should really only manifest itself when you are doing shifts. That's what the Cervelo guys complain about. I wouldn't have thought it would flex much while the bike is stationary & there is minimal sideways force on the der.

Thoughts?
- Does your LBS have, or know of, any other 11s bikes you can compare with? 
- can you post the width of your der cage at the point it rubs, ie the distance between the insides of the two metal plates holding the pulleys in place. Maybe someone else can measure their 11s & see if you have a funny der.
- can you post the distance from the centreline of the bike to the middle of the big chainring, and from the centreline of the bike to the middle of the smallest cog. Then we can get some ideas about your chainline.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

orange_julius said:


> What, you aren't going to ask the person to bring out a 500mm lens to minimize the FoV distortion?



No, it's OK. He didn't use an 18 mm fisheye lens. I had fun with one of those (Takumar) in the 1970s. 

Actually, I'm talking about a person looking at the bike (or the photo of it here) being fooled by all the lines neither horizontal nor vertical crossing through the view. It's like the picture of a bike taken from its side often provoking the comment "the fork is bent!" because the front wheel spokes form misleading reference lines.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

it is really hard to say, but something just looks the slightest bit out. i wish i could get this bike in my workstand and check everything over. i've definitely learned to doubt even what the 'most experienced and reputedly best' mechanics do to bikes after seeing some pretty sketchy repairs. mechanics may think they're checking hanger alignment at all angles. they may think they've got everything tight. they may think it's all adjusted perfectly...but so many times they'll miss one little thing that can make something like this happen. i'll drag every person working in the shop over to have a look at something if it's not working out correctly. pretty much all of us have at least 5 years of shop experience, most upwards of 20...sometimes you just need another set of eyes to look at it.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

Well here's one thing the LBS missed - I removed the rear wheel and was able to tighten the hanger screws. Both were slightly loose. This doesn't solve the issue of course. Perhaps I should go buy the Park Tool DAG-2 and check it myself?


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

The Park DAG-2 is relatively cheap and will fix all sorts of shifting issues. A good tool to have in the box.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

Just to reiterate on the shifting - it is perfectly good and crisp up and down the cassette. When in the big chainring in front, when I land in the smallest cog in the back there is rattling. When I flip over the bike and inspect while manually turning the crank, the rattling continues but I also see the chain just slightly rubbing the rear derailleur cage by the lower pulley wheel. The rattling sound is not from the chain rubbing the cage. It emanates from the chain / cassette. Letting in or out the correct limit screw does not help. In fact when I let out the limit screw all the way the farthest out the lower wheel moves is being aligned perfectly over the smallest cog. I can't get it to go further to even test.

Without using a gauge or any scientific measurement, the centerline to big ring in front is roughly 43mm and in the back to smallest cog is around 63mm - again the measurement is not scientific and difficult to make. If I measure from the middle cog to center line, it matches the front at roughly 43mm.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Aikea Guinea said:


> The rattling sound is not from the chain rubbing the cage. It emanates from the chain / cassette.


Is the chain too long? 
Is it too short?


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## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

Aikea Guinea said:


> In fact when I let out the limit screw all the way the farthest out the lower wheel moves is being aligned perfectly over the smallest cog. I can't get it to go further to even test.


Yeah that's odd. With the der perfectly aligned on 11 it should be resting against its limit screw with the cable at fairly low tension. If you open out the limit screw until it's held on cable tension it should have over shifted, how much? Dunno I would guess 1-2 mm.

If you open out the limit screw, then slacken the der cable using your barrel adjusters, does the der move further outboard from 11? That is, what stops the der moving further outboard.... the cable tension, the limit screw, the inherent limits of the der, or (eg) does the der hit something?



Aikea Guinea said:


> Without using a gauge or any scientific measurement, the centerline to big ring in front is roughly 43mm.


Slightly odd, the chainline should be 43.5 mm which is from the centerline of the bike to midway between the two chainrings. So the big chainring should be nearer 48 mm ish. Check again?

Plus what cxwrench said, don't necessarily trust your LBS, there are some slapdash charlatans out there. Not saying your LBS is one, but.....


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

CheapSkate said:


> Slightly odd, the chainline should be 43.5 mm which is from the centerline of the bike to midway between the two chainrings. So the big chainring should be nearer 48 mm ish. Check again?


I'd be very surprised if the chainline was off .... this bike uses an Ultra-Torque crankset, so there is a BB width spec (69.2-70.8mm for Italian, 67.2-68.8 for English). The OP should check the BB width with a caliper to make sure it's within spec. If it is, and if the crankset was installed correctly, it should follow then that the centerline should be correct, no? Unless the frame alignment itself is off.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. Ultimately it's good that I understand this stuff better. Ok, now some good news I guess... 

Doh, I forgot to release cable tension before adjusting the limit screw. Call it being tired, cranky, and juggling too many variables at once... That's why it's good there are pros like you guys keeping me in line! So I did it the correct way and reset the limit screw properly. Viola! Chain rattling on the 11 cog disappeared. I reset cable tension and all the crisp shifting is still there. So, LBS might have set this correctly but I'm guessing that everything being new parts, a couple 25 mi. rides this weekend probably required a tweak to the rear derailleur setting.

Strangely the derailleur also looks better aligned now that I tightened the hanger screws and adjusted the high gear limit screw. But it is still slightly off kilter with the chain barely rubbing the rear cage when on the 11 cog.

My money now is on a slight twist in the derailleur hanger. I'm going to order the Park Tool DAG-2 and do this myself. It will be an important learning lesson. Additionally, since this bike has had myriad issues since arrival, I'm going to reach out to the retailer for a brand new hanger. They already replaced $600+ of components. Let's get this right and replace the $30 hanger. I know... there's no guarantee a new hanger won't require an adjustment. Baby steps...


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Aikea Guinea said:


> Thank you everyone for the suggestions. Ultimately it's good that I understand this stuff better. Ok, now some good news I guess...
> 
> Doh, I forgot to release cable tension before adjusting the limit screw. Call it being tired, cranky, and juggling too many variables at once... That's why it's good there are pros like you guys keeping me in line! So I did it the correct way and reset the limit screw properly. Viola! Chain rattling on the 11 cog disappeared. I reset cable tension and all the crisp shifting is still there. So, LBS might have set this correctly but I'm guessing that everything being new parts, a couple 25 mi. rides this weekend probably required a tweak to the rear derailleur setting.
> 
> ...


Good for you! Congrats on figuring all this out.

If I were you I'd consider getting a 3rd party derailleur hanger, hoping for a stiffer one. If the retailer gives you the exact same thing as what you already currently have it may correct a twisting/bent issue, but not the stiffness issue which seems to be already reported for certain Wiliers. 

Have fun and enjoy the ride, do post some pics of the completed ride.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

Any thoughts on this? - Wheels Manufacturing Derailleur Hanger 160

Also, very interesting that Wilier is going to a replaceable dropout on the 2013 Cento 1 claiming it is stiffer. I wonder if they have recognized an issue with the hangers...?

From page 2 of the preview article - 2013 Wilier-Triestina's Cento1 SR | Bicycling Magazine



> Instead of a replaceable derailleur hanger, Wilier incorporates a replaceable dropout, which they claim is a stiffer, and makes for more precise shifting. The rear shifting cable routes though the dropout, and there is a specific part for both mechanical and electronic systems.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

Aikea Guinea said:


> I just got off the phone with my LBS who said he always checks all around the wheel with the derailleur hanger tool. He said he "noticed the hanger is more flexy than he prefers" and suggested that bike manufacturers cut costs on hangers and get them from third parties these days.





Aikea Guinea said:


> Well here's one thing the LBS missed - I removed the rear wheel and was able to tighten the hanger screws. Both were slightly loose.


So they supposedly checked with the dropout tool and didn't find a loose hanger?  On top of everything else you might want to look at finding another LBS.....


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

Yes, don't bother with a hangar tool at this point (unless you want one for future), it's been pulled on enough. Just replace it and be done.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

rcharrette said:


> Yes, don't bother with a hangar tool at this point (unless you want one for future), it's been pulled on enough. Just replace it and be done.


nope...you HAVE to check new hangers. at least 50% of the new hangers i bolt on bikes need some alignment...i'm quite sure they're perfect, but the interface w/ the frame isn't always exactly right. if you're not checking new hangers, you're not doing it right. get the too AND a good aftermarket hanger from Wheels Manuf. or another supplier. 

to the OP...good job on figuring out the issue and getting it sorted. you sound like you're well on the way to being able to keep your bikes running well w/o the need of the local shop. there are a lot of guys around here w/ tons of experience and they're all willing to help whenever you need it. :thumbsup:


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Aikea Guinea said:


> Well here's one thing the LBS missed - I removed the rear wheel and was able to tighten the hanger screws. Both were slightly loose. This doesn't solve the issue of course. Perhaps I should go buy the Park Tool DAG-2 and check it myself?


Unless the hanger is always tight, the shifting will never work right. I've seen supposedly "high end" bike shops overlook something as simple as this.

Normal tightening torque should keep the hanger tight indefinitely, but check it again after a few 100 miles -- if it's coming loose consider applying blue loctite to the threads. 

Note - Since loctite is an adhesive and not a "friction locking compound" like the stuff often preapplied onto threads, you have to clean off all grease and oild from the threads, for the loctite to work.


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## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

@ OP

Good for you! Your first solved problem. It won't be your last.

We've all been there, one's patience gets worn very thin when our new $$$$ toy doesn't work properly. Go look at my thread about Power Torque & you'll see exactly the same thing.

Some suggestions

- just ride. Don't worry about new der hangers, alignment tools, etc. Just ride. I bet your shifting is excellent now. It might take 100 miles for the stuff to break in properly and quieten down, at least it does on 10s. Just hammer your bike for a bit.

- find another Campy expert. Try looking for a Campy Approved Service Centre (ASC) in your country. Or contact Campy, ask them who does the training in your country, then ask that training centre for the name of a good local. I did this in the UK and ended up with a bearded guru who works out of his front room, spends 1/2 his time building Trek Madones, the other half retro classic steel Record friction shift jobs. If you are in the UK, let me know and I'll put you in touch

- RTFM! Download the relevant Campy manuals from the Web, store them on your laptop. If something goes wrong, read them line by line, they are (usually) very good. Sometimes it's best to strip everything out and start from a bare frame if you have a real problem with one component.

- keep a log book. Date, miles and what's going on. It will be useful to your future self.... when you last had that funny noise, how did you fix it? How many miles does the chain have? The cassette? That cable inner?

- trust no one. I don't. Just because some spotty youth has said he's checked it, doesn't mean he has. Say "show me", or do it yourself.

- enjoy your bike!


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

orange_julius said:


> I'd be very surprised if the chainline was off .... this bike uses an Ultra-Torque crankset, so there is a BB width spec (69.2-70.8mm for Italian, 67.2-68.8 for English). The OP should check the BB width with a caliper to make sure it's within spec. If it is, and if the crankset was installed correctly, it should follow then that the centerline should be correct, no? Unless the frame alignment itself is off.





CheapSkate said:


> Slightly odd, the chainline should be 43.5 mm which is from the centerline of the bike to midway between the two chainrings. So the big chainring should be nearer 48 mm ish. Check again?


Just following up on the measurements... I didn't have a caliper but I do have an accurate metric ruler and the bottom bracket width appears to be roughly 68mm. I should be excluding the cups, correct? By cups I mean these - RECORD™ Ultra-Torque™ BB outboard cups - Campagnolo

So I measured just the width of the frame at the bottom bracket, underside of bike, excluding the cups. It's possible that the measurement is slightly wider, I just don't have the tools to take a more accurate measurement.

So, double-checking the chain line, I made a tape line exactly halfway on the bottom bracket using the measurement above. It also appears to bisect the seat tube so I think I have the center line properly identified now. I got 43.5 to midway between the chain rings and it looks like exactly 48mm to the large ring.


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## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

Aikea Guinea said:


> ... It also appears to bisect the seat tube so I think I have the center line properly identified now. I got 43.5 to midway between the chain rings and it looks like exactly 48mm to the large ring.


Nice one! It was a very long shot but worth checking, the chain angle looked so funny. worrying about chain lines really dates me, it only really mattered in the Old Days. I remember when I was a lad, it was all fields round here ...... etc
Enjoy your bike


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

I have an update and additional info. I had ordered a WheelsMfg hanger and also received an additional and identical WheelsMfg hanger from the retailer, gratis. I put one on the bike and the rear derailleur now seems perpendicular to the cassette and not twisted like before. Additionally, the chain is not rubbing the rear derailleur cage.... BUT, not by much. 

The clearance between the rear cage and the chain, at the lower pulley, wheel side, can't possibly be more than the width of a piece of paper. This makes me nervous that something is still off or could eventually rub. The weird thing is that after flipping the bike upside down, shifting the chain onto the large 50t ring in front and 11t cog in the rear and slowly cranking the drivetrain forward, the chain appears to move in and out ever so slightly at that spot on the rear derailleur cage at the lower pulley wheel. 

I would say for every chain link or so entering the rear cage at the lower pulley, the clearance shifts back and forth from around 1mm down to the width I described earlier which is about the width of a piece of paper. If observing very carefully, it actually looks like the chain is headed directly toward collision with the very edge of the rear cage, enters at the width of a piece of paper, but then pulley wheel pulls it back over ever so slightly to about 1mm. Hopefully this description makes sense.

Now, if this is perfectly normal, I do not want to dwell on it. The bike rides fine, no chain rattling, great shifting (after I readjusted the limit screw and cable tension). Also granted, I have not yet received my DAG-2 derailleur alignment gauge, which could further validate that the new hanger is fine or otherwise requires a tweak.

My immediate concerns - Is it normal for the chain distance to move back and forth in the rear cage within such a narrow range of clearance, and could the crank be in play at all in terms of being installed correctly or not? I can't feel nor observe any play when trying to push the crank arms side to side. But I just wonder if anything were cockeyed at the crank / chain ring, could this cause the issues I have been seeing (along with rear hanger)? 

One more piece of info - I called Campy last week, before receiving the new hangers, and they were very helpful and friendly. He explained that in the gear combination of large ring, small cog, the clearance should be around 1mm from the rear cage and anything over 2mm at that gear combo would be an issue and anything rubbing would be an issue. Right now, I fall within the acceptable range per his literal description. But I want to be absolutely certain it's good going forward (no pun intended). He suggest backing off the limit screw about 1/8 of a turn to see if it adds clearance. That doesn't really seem to have an effect so far and it seems the RD and chain move together, just from recent memory of attempting his suggestion.

Thanks again to everyone for all the insight and help so far. I really feel like I know this gruppo better each day and I also have confidence in making adjustments where required.


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## joeyb1000 (Feb 15, 2011)

I have one more test for you. It's easy and free.

Hold a straight edge against the outside of the big chainring. It should line up with the inside edge of the 5th cog from the bottom.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

joeyb1000 said:


> I have one more test for you. It's easy and free.
> 
> Hold a straight edge against the outside of the big chainring. It should line up with the inside edge of the 5th cog from the bottom.


Thanks for the suggestion. It appears to line up fine. What would it mean if the ruler hit higher or lower than the inside edge of the 5th cog?


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## joeyb1000 (Feb 15, 2011)

Aikea Guinea said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. It appears to line up fine. What would it mean if the ruler hit higher or lower than the inside edge of the 5th cog?


It would mean that the bottom bracket itself was at an angle. I've never seen this with newer carbon frames. But back in the old days, this sometimes happened on steel frames.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Aikea Guinea,

FYI, I have a semi-random data point for you. I have 2009 Chorus, and 2009 Specialized Sworks SL2 frame -- it also has same chainstay length as your Wilier, 405mm.

I shifted to big 50t chainring & small 11t cog. Using feeler guages, I measured minimum clearance between the chain and the derailler cage, same spot where you were having chain rub.

I measure a consistent 0.50-0.52 mm gap. I'd consider that acceptable, since I've never had rubbing. Note , minimum gap is from the pin on each chain link.

Once you get the Park DAG-2 guage and check/adjust alignment, I think that should fix any remaining problems you may have.

I'm not seeing any "_clearance shifts back and forth_" that you did. 
Are you sure your big chain ring is perfectly straight and not warped? 
You can just look down through the front derailler cage while turning the crank, to determine that.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

FYI, I have seen more than a couple "twisted" Campy 11 derailleurs. If the bike is all square, warranty the derailleur.


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## stevoo (Oct 26, 2011)

Great job keeping after the issue and getting it resolved.

1) I have found many bikes with the hanger bolts very loose. I also use loctite on these fasteners.
2) Many OEM hangers are flexy. I have had good results with the Wheels mfg brand as they have been stiffer than a number of the OEM's I have replaced. I like them.
3) I agree with the poster who said you must check alignment even with a new hanger. Tolerance stack up etc. It will surprise you that even new parts may not yeild a perfect alignment. Using the alignment tool will allow you to get it spot on.

I have found the hanger alignment tool to be easy and quick to use and once your friends find out you have it the usage will go up. Bikes get knocked over etc.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

stevoo said:


> Great job keeping after the issue and getting it resolved.
> 
> 1) I have found many bikes with the hanger bolts very loose. I also use loctite on these fasteners.
> 2) Many OEM hangers are flexy. I have had good results with the Wheels mfg brand as they have been stiffer than a number of the OEM's I have replaced. I like them.
> ...


Thanks! The new Wheels Mfg hanger is already on there and my DAG-2 arrives tomorrow so I will make sure it is not the hanger alignment.



tom_h said:


> Aikea Guinea,
> 
> FYI, I have a semi-random data point for you. I have 2009 Chorus, and 2009 Specialized Sworks SL2 frame -- it also has same chainstay length as your Wilier, 405mm.
> 
> ...


Thanks for checking your bike out and providing the data! I appreciate it. I don't have a feeler gauge but will probably get one someday soon.  Using an accurate ruler in mm, I'm probably very close to your measurements except when the chain link moves inward toward the cage. Then it is nearly touching the cage.

I checked the chain ring and it looks like the chain moves ever-so-slightly when coming off the big ring toward the RD. I'm really not sure if this is just optical illusion at this point. If the hanger alignment were still off, could this be moving the chain horizontally back at the chain ring? 

Regardless, I'll be able to definitively answer the hanger alignment question tomorrow. As a fail safe, I have scheduled an appointment for next Wednesday with one of the 4 Campy pro shops in my state. I'm not happy about making the drive and probably having to leave the bike and make the drive a second time, but I'm sure they will solve it if the problem does not turn out to be hanger alignment.

I called Campy again yesterday and they concurred that taking it to the pro shop will get the issue solved and he offered to have the pro shop call them if any assistance is needed. 

The silver lining so far is that the retailer and the manufacturer stand behind their products and services so far. It takes a little edge off the frustration I'm feeling at the moment. I really pray there is no issue with the frame itself. So far, everyone seems to think that is unlikely since it is a carbon mold and no one has seen one out of alignment at Wilier or so I'm told... But I wonder, are the dropouts aluminum and could one be bent, and if so would it be repairable or require replacement. Let's hope this is not the issue. (fingers crossed).



Kontact said:


> FYI, I have seen more than a couple "twisted" Campy 11 derailleurs. If the bike is all square, warranty the derailleur.


I'll let the pro shop determine this if I end up having to travel there. But, the retailer already replaced the first RD, so it seems unlikely to me that two would have the same exact problem. I even mentioned this to the guy at Campy and he thinks it would be highly unlikely, but of course that's probably what he should say.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

One more thing... Considering my limited technical knowledge and experience, I have gone over this bike and setup looking at everything I can and using the guidance in this thread. One issue I just found yesterday is that the Chorus 11 chain has the master link, the one with the batch number etched, facing inward, but the master pin was installed correctly, meaning it was driven from the inside toward the outside. However, when looking at a couple tech sites online, Park Tool I think was one, they show that etched link facing outward. 

Stupid question - and shows my ignorance about Campy 11 speed (I've always owned Shimano) - does the direction of the chain installation, other than the master pin, make any difference whatsoever? I can't imagine it would. But I'm trying to rule out as much as possible and give a detailed description to the pro shop next Wed. if needed.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Aikea Guinea said:


> One more thing... Considering my limited technical knowledge and experience, I have gone over this bike and setup looking at everything I can and using the guidance in this thread. One issue I just found yesterday is that the Chorus 11 chain has the master link, the one with the batch number etched, facing inward, but the master pin was installed correctly, meaning it was driven from the inside toward the outside. However, when looking at a couple tech sites online, Park Tool I think was one, they show that etched link facing outward.
> 
> Stupid question - and shows my ignorance about Campy 11 speed (I've always owned Shimano) - does the direction of the chain installation, other than the master pin, make any difference whatsoever? I can't imagine it would. But I'm trying to rule out as much as possible and give a detailed description to the pro shop next Wed. if needed.


The link gets installed in a direction that is not intuitive, and they are often found in backwards. The chain is not directional for Campy, but the loads on the chain are, so the pin must be oriented the right way. And the pin cannot be pressed out and replaced - that section (or the whole chain) is forfeit.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Kontact said:


> The chain is not directional for Campy, but the loads on the chain are, so the pin must be oriented the right way.


Yes, meaning insert the pin from the inside, and push it towards to outside (away from the wheel) side of the chain. Although, I have often wondered if it would make a practical difference if somebody did it wrong. I see what you're saying about the loads, but how important is that difference? Anyway, I'm not going to try my luck to check...


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

Pirx said:


> Yes, meaning insert the pin from the inside, and push it towards to outside (away from the wheel) side of the chain. Although, I have often wondered if it would make a practical difference if somebody did it wrong. I see what you're saying about the loads, but how important is that difference? Anyway, I'm not going to try my luck to check...


Out of habit (or sloppiness or being too tired while performing nighttime maintenance) maybe I've installed the pin from the outside at least a couple times and never had any issues. Obviously if I remember I do it the correct way but I won't ever sweat it if I forget and get it backwards. 

I would guess you could get one of the $10 quick links that are 11sp compatible if you were worried though? I don't see why anyone would trash a new chain because of this.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

Update - My DAG-2 (derailleur hanger alignment tool) arrived today and I checked alignment of the new Wheels Mfg hanger. It was within acceptable range (4mm) but I spent 30 min. tweaking it carefully until it was right on the money all around the wheel with only a 1mm gap at 9:00 p.m. It's not going to get any more straight than that. I also straightened the red anodized factory hanger which was not perfectly straight. The LBS didn't do a good job on it for the $20 I previously spent. Now it is straight too and I decided to leave it on and have the Wheels Mfg as backups.

The chain does still look really close at the lower pulley / rear derailleur cage. We'll see what the Pro Shop says. The bike rides really great. Rear shifting seems to fire the chain effortlessly up and down the cassette.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Aikea Guinea said:


> Update - My DAG-2 (derailleur hanger alignment tool) arrived today and I checked alignment of the new Wheels Mfg hanger. It was within acceptable range (4mm) but I spent 30 min. tweaking it carefully until it was right on the money all around the wheel with only a 1mm gap at 9:00 p.m. It's not going to get any more straight than that. I also straightened the red anodized factory hanger which was not perfectly straight. The LBS didn't do a good job on it for the $20 I previously spent. Now it is straight too and I decided to leave it on and have the Wheels Mfg as backups.
> 
> The chain does still look really close at the lower pulley / rear derailleur cage. We'll see what the Pro Shop says. The bike rides really great. Rear shifting seems to fire the chain effortlessly up and down the cassette.


Did you end up going to the Pro Shop? Curious to know what they said/did.


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## Aikea Guinea (Aug 1, 2012)

orange_julius said:


> Did you end up going to the Pro Shop? Curious to know what they said/did.


Hi. Yes, I went last Wed. and they said everything is fine. I was still concerned the chain was close to the edge of the rear derailleur cage. The Campy tech confirmed the chain is not rubbing and the crank, chainline, RD and hanger all look good. 

Before bringing the bike in I had received the Park DAG-2 hanger alignment tool. I corrected both a new Wheels Mfg hanger and the original hanger which was still twisted 9-3 p.m. beyond acceptable limits. This confirmed for me that the first LBS did not do a good job aligning the hanger. I think he simply forgot or missed checking the 9-3 p.m. alignment. Otherwise this problem might have been solved more than 3 weeks ago. 

In the end, I think there may be combinations of frame, frame size (XXL) and gruppo that simply put the chain closer to the cage on a Campy RD in the big ring / 11t combo even when the chain line and setup are tuned 100%. As long as it doesn't rub, I should be fine.

The other thing the Campy tech told me is that Chorus 11 can tend to be a little noisy when new, even when properly set up. He mentioned it will quiet down as it breaks in. I have not hear this before, at least not with the new 11-speed groups. However, after putting another 150 mi. on the bike this past few days I must say I do believe I'm hearing less noise overall.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Aikea Guinea said:


> Hi. Yes, I went last Wed. and they said everything is fine. I was still concerned the chain was close to the edge of the rear derailleur cage. The Campy tech confirmed the chain is not rubbing and the crank, chainline, RD and hanger all look good.
> 
> Before bringing the bike in I had received the Park DAG-2 hanger alignment tool. I corrected both a new Wheels Mfg hanger and the original hanger which was still twisted 9-3 p.m. beyond acceptable limits. This confirmed for me that the first LBS did not do a good job aligning the hanger. I think he simply forgot or missed checking the 9-3 p.m. alignment. Otherwise this problem might have been solved more than 3 weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Great news that you can ride your bike without problems now, congratulations. It sucks that the first shop simply didn't do their job - with an XXL frame, RD hanger alignment is actually a lesser issue than it is with smaller frames (read: shorter chainstays). 

Not sure what the Pro Shop meant by "less noisy". It could refer to the goopy "white factory grease" that the derailleur rollers came with. They are quite viscous, and this lessens over time. I recommend Chain-L for chains, they take a bit of effort to apply, but the result is great. 

Thanks for the update.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Aikea Guinea said:


> Hi. Yes, I went last Wed. and they said everything is fine. I was still concerned the chain was close to the edge of the rear derailleur cage. The Campy tech confirmed the chain is not rubbing and the crank, chainline, RD and hanger all look good.
> [snip]
> In the end, I think there may be combinations of frame, frame size (XXL) and gruppo that simply put the chain closer to the cage on a Campy RD in the big ring / 11t combo even when the chain line and setup are tuned 100%. As long as it doesn't rub, I should be fine.
> [snip]


I agree. In my post #43, I stated on my bike:
_I measure a consistent 0.50-0.52 mm gap. I'd consider that acceptable, since I've never had rubbing. Note , minimum gap is from the pin on each chain link._
​The Park DAG-2 is a great tool to have. It's shocking (well, maybe not!) how few shops know, or care enough, to check RD hanger alignment.

I would recommend rechecking alignment at least once per year. Normal day-to-day use & bumping into the bike can sometimes change the alignment.


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