# EPO-Boost supplement?



## smbrum

yes I am a sucker for sports supplements in my effort to find a holy grail of legal safe performance enhancement. And yes, I am always the guy that rushes to buy a bottle of diet pills when i pack on a few winter pounds. So now that the obvious confession is out of the way, I was wondering if anyone has tried the EPO-Boost supplement. I saw one of the ads here on RBR and checked out the site. Not a lot of info and kind of pricey. 

Curious if there are other suckers out there that have already tried the product and care to share the effectiveness. I'm getting tired of investing in expensive pee!


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## stevesbike

total weasel language - no published study of their supposed clinical studies and their claim of citations in 5,575 studies is for the ingredients in the product - when iron etc are ingredients not too hard to accomplish that. Nothing in it very interesting.


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## MR_GRUMPY

You would do well to train more and listen to BS less.

People have been selling snake oil for the last 20,000 years.


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## bauerb

there are no legal drugs/supplements that do what EPO does. end of story. you can feed your body what it needs to make blood cells(iron, b12, c, etc), but you will not make more than your body wants at any given point. don't waste your money. BTW, you can buy OTC pro-hormones that also won;t work, but likely contain substances that will get you busted if you are tested


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## AidanM

why would you name a product EPO boost, does it contain erythproetin? NO

so whats the deal.


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## flyingheel

AidanM said:


> why would you name a product EPO boost, does it contain erythproetin? NO
> 
> so whats the deal.


Its all about marketing. It got you to their site. Ask yourself if you would have clicked the link if the ad said "Iron and Vitamin Supplement". That's the deal.


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## waldo425

Ive never considered many supplements to be worth it.


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## mj1california

*Might be effective*

Looks like the product has echinacea to increase EPO levels (check out http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol143/whitehe3.htm, “Echinacea supplementation results in significant increases in erythropoietin, VO2max, and running economy.”). Iron, B vitamins and folic acid to assist with red blood cell production. I bought a bottle last week and will post later on results. A lot of doubters here, EPO-Boost looks promising to me.


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## Dutch77

Echinecea works better as a short term boost (couple of weeks at a time) than as long term supplement. It's also over harvested, since it's an herb people recognize right away in a supplement. Quality can vary greatly, and it's also about which part of the plant is used.

Find a local herbal or chinese medicine practicioner, there's plenty of herbs that help with inflammation, build muscle tissue, boost white and red blood cell count, etc.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

Or you could just train properly, eat a healthy balanced nutritional diet and recover/rest well. They are the biggest legal performance enhancers by a long shot, and without any health risk.

Most supplements are taken without due regard to their true contents, or their real effects (on one's performance or on one's health) and are usually consumed by gullible minds.

Indeed there is quite a bit of research into supplement usage by athletes. Makes for interesting reading.


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## California L33

mj1california said:


> Looks like the product has echinacea to increase EPO levels (check out http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol143/whitehe3.htm, “Echinacea supplementation results in significant increases in erythropoietin, VO2max, and running economy.”). Iron, B vitamins and folic acid to assist with red blood cell production. I bought a bottle last week and will post later on results. A lot of doubters here, EPO-Boost looks promising to me.


Your first post, Dude, your first post. (Hanging head). If you're going to pimp a product at least go to the Podium Girls forum and post 50 or 60 "I'd hit it" replies after you create the new profile so it looks legit.


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## 32and3cross

My guess is its complete and total bunk. While there has been some evidence that Echinacea can stimulate red blood cell production you have to ingest quite alot per day enough that alot of subjects in the test I read about suffered intestinal upset because of the dosage.


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## GerryR

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Or you could just train properly, eat a healthy balanced nutritional diet and recover/rest well. They are the biggest legal performance enhancers by a long shot, and without any health risk.


+1 But, as P.T. Barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute" so unfortunately that crap will continue to sell, just like the Nigerian scammers will continue to get access to people's bank accounts.


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## Dwayne Barry

32and3cross said:


> My guess is its complete and total bunk. While there has been some evidence that Echinacea can stimulate red blood cell production you have to ingest quite alot per day enough that alot of subjects in the test I read about suffered intestinal upset because of the dosage.


Here is the link to the published study from these guys that I found on Pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

So it increased EPO apparently, but no increase in red blood cells, which of course is the end product we all care about. No mention in the abstract of measuring performance.


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## Dwayne Barry

GerryR said:


> +1 But, as P.T. Barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute" so unfortunately that crap will continue to sell, just like the Nigerian scammers will continue to get access to people's bank accounts.


Medicine and Science in Sports in Exercise published a position paper on "Nutrition and Athletic Performance" which included a section on supplements. The list of supplements that have been tested and failed to do what they claim to do was over twice as long as those that appear to unequivocally improve performance (Creatine, Caffeine, & Sodium Bicarbonate are the extent of the list!) and those that may improve performance (HMB, glutamine, colostrum, and ribose).

From what I've seen the best evidence for a significant performance gain from supplements is probably in the realms of strength and muscle mass gains from using creatine and HMB. Both seem to be effective and work on different sides of the "equation" so likely work synergistically. Creatine probably increases resistance training intensity and protein synthesis rates while HMB decreases protein degradation. From what I've seen a doubling or more of muscle mass and strength gains is possible.


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## 32and3cross

Dwayne Barry said:


> Here is the link to the published study from these guys that I found on Pubmed.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
> 
> So it increased EPO apparently, but no increase in red blood cells, which of course is the end product we all care about. No mention in the abstract of measuring performance.



Ahh well then, not the same one I had seen which, I think, did use athletes but saw little or no increase in performace either.


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## Andrea138

AidanM said:


> why would you name a product EPO boost, does it contain erythproetin? NO
> 
> so whats the deal.


Because if it was called "waste your money on this crap" then no one would buy it.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

Dwayne Barry said:


> Here is the link to the published study from these guys that I found on Pubmed.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
> 
> So it increased EPO apparently, but no increase in red blood cells, which of course is the end product we all care about. No mention in the abstract of measuring performance.


Yeah, I looked at that too and no mention of performance, which absolutely would have been in an extract. Besides, what we look for is a body of evidence, not an isolated study.


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## Dwayne Barry

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Yeah, I looked at that too and no mention of performance, which absolutely would have been in an extract. Besides, what we look for is a body of evidence, not an isolated study.


It's interesting that EPO increased but no increase in RBC, which begs the question of how much of an increase in EPO is necessary to see an effect on RBC numbers?

I don't know, but info. must be out there from altitude adaptation and EPO drug studies.


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## smbrum

thanks for the feedback gang. as mentioned I have always been one to look for an edge, as I suspect many are. I do train, at least as much as my schedule and family commitment will allow. I actually enjoy training and I dont mind suffering in a ride either. Just seems my legs dont always cooperate and I push them to the point of exhaustion. Guess I was really hoping this supplement might delay the fatigue and give me that little extra. Oh well


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## austincrx

i've got a product that will work wonders. It's EPO supplement called SUGAR PILLS!


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## zoikz

While you're at it throw the diet pills down the toilet.


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## bauerb

when Dr's start prescribing "EPO Boost" to anemic patients...


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## spade2you

bauerb said:


> when Dr's start prescribing "EPO Boost" to anemic patients...


True that, although physicians will prescribe similar agents for anemia, but at higher doses. Besides, the prescription drugs are waaaaay cheaper than stuff like EPO Boost. Furthermore, if you're not facing some sort of nutritional deficiency anemia, there probably won't be any noticeable benefits.


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## bmxhacksaw

Or you could just follow my plan. Blue Room Bacon Cheese Burgers at least twice a week. Enter your first race, win it, and retired undefeated. Then bump up the BRBCBs to 4 times a week. So far it's working pretty good for me. Can you get busted for excessive levels of cheese in your system?


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## bauerb

check back when you're a cat 3 or higher. thanks


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## doogiepa

I just read the oft-cited study on high-dose echinacea, and although it might raise epo levels in the short term, there is NO EVIDENCE it raises your hemoglobin/hematocrit, which is what you want if you want an increase in your V02MAX.

I conclude that these products are a scam.


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## 32and3cross

People wonder at the mentality that leads to doping. This thread its it right here, looking for an edge will to take pills to get it, thats a nice big fat grey area one wanders into there. 

Technically the pills at GNC are legal but if your looking for an edge you keep looking for that next pill that will give it to you. Im not saying the orginal poster was looking to cheat but I see this as a path that leads to believeing taht A) taht its acceptable to take pills to perform better and that b) its nessasary.


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## doogiepa

Yeah, I agree that unless you want to court danger by taking PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) you should just train and eat right.

However there are some folks who are always looking for an "edge" that's why some of the pro's in cycling (and other sports) dope. It's wrong but it has always happened and will probably always happen to some extent. But for an amateur to dope, that's plain stupid.


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## joker

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/06/explainer/the-explainer-getting-that-ol-epo-boost_93024


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## stevesbike

doogiepa said:


> I just read the oft-cited study on high-dose echinacea, and although it might raise epo levels in the short term, there is NO EVIDENCE it raises your hemoglobin/hematocrit, which is what you want if you want an increase in your V02MAX.
> 
> I conclude that these products are a scam.


it took you two years to read the study?


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## doogiepa

stevesbike said:


> it took you two years to read the study?


No, silly. I just heard of this product from a recent Advertisement in Road Bike Action.

Rather than starting a new thread I brought back this one.

Sorry for any confusion.


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## pw9000

Yes, and your sentence is exile to Wisconsin.


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## Rugergundog

little bit of caffeine in moderation can help for short periods....thats about it from what ive learned from several reputable sources.........as for legal anyhow.

I don't think there is a "legal" holly grail for a reason. Anything you ingest that boosts your performance to a big extent....well takes the "legality" out of it.

If you want the grail...better search the underground or travel to the big gym. 

Ill stick with water, fruit and hard work.........oh and a good coffee in the morning.


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## 5311

CONCAP.... That is what Katusha, Jose Hermidas and Nick nuyens use.
They put it on there website. Its a food supplement company that is WADA tested.

Check it out how many Pro athletes they sponsor. 
www.concap.be


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

5311 said:


> CONCAP.... That is what Katusha, Jose Hermidas and Nick nuyens use.
> They put it on there website. Its a food supplement company that is WADA tested.
> 
> Check it out how many Pro athletes they sponsor.
> www.concap.be


1. WADA don't test nor endorse any product.
2. The efficacy of a substance is often inversely proportional to the level of paid endorsements.


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## 5311

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> 1. WADA don't test nor endorse any product.
> 2. The efficacy of a substance is often inversely proportional to the level of paid endorsements.



-They say it is tested in a WADA approved Lab in Koln Germany.
It is right of you to say that they don't endorse products.
-If they have to pay every athlete that they sponsor .... 

We tried it with some friends and it works great !
I had a lot of stable good energy, nothing like all those caffeine products.
What natural supplement can you take and really notice a difference from ?

It is just a very interesting product to read about.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

5311 said:


> -They say it is tested in a WADA approved Lab in Koln Germany.
> It is right of you to say that they don't endorse products.
> -If they have to pay every athlete that they sponsor ....
> 
> We tried it with some friends and it works great !
> I had a lot of stable good energy, nothing like all those caffeine products.
> What natural supplement can you take and really notice a difference from ?
> 
> It is just a very interesting product to read about.


Show me the peer reviewed research demonstrating it's efficacy. Pub Med links would be a good start.

I find good food in the right quantities to be an excellent performance enhancer, along with rest, sleep and training.

Carbohydrates for instance are excellent for ensuring good performance.

This product's "super ingredients":

Echinecea is not well supported by the evidence but is readily available if you really want it.

Vitamin B6 is available from vegetables, nuts, grain, bananas, meats

Vitamin B12 is available from various meats, eggs, milk, cheese, shellfish

Vitamin B3 (Niacin) is available from consuming liver, chicken, beef, fish, cereal, peanuts and legumes, meat, dairy and eggs

Boron from dried fruits/raisins

Inositol from fruits, beans, grains and nuts

I could go on but I think you get the picture.


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## Kerry Irons

*Pary pooper*



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Show me the peer reviewed research demonstrating it's efficacy. Pub Med links would be a good start.
> 
> I find good food in the right quantities to be an excellent performance enhancer, along with rest, sleep and training.


Man, you are such a wet blanket  People want to BELIEVE and here you are telling them that they should have facts to back up their anecdotes. If everybody had to do that, where would we be?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

Kerry Irons said:


> Man, you are such a wet blanket


My apologies.  



Kerry Irons said:


> People want to BELIEVE and here you are telling them that they should have facts to back up their anecdotes. If everybody had to do that, where would we be?


Well for one we wouldn't be such an incredibly wasteful society, we might direct our resources, efforts and energy into things that actually work, rather than waste it on rubbish that doesn't.

This goes for all pseudo-science, fads and gimmicks.

Imagine if the ~$US1 billion spent on homeopathy products in the USA alone was directed to medical treatments that actually worked. And heaven knows how much more on the consultants.


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## Kerry Irons

*Homeopathy*



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Imagine if the ~$US1 billion spent on homeopathy products in the USA alone was directed to medical treatments that actually worked.


I heard a great explanation of homeopathy: imagine that you could learn to play the guitar by listening to a month of FM interstation noise, and one second of Eric Clapton. I said that the one second sounded like a homeopathic overdose


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## pcrispey

Hi guy's I just joined in after reading your topic on the Concap sup.

I have a lot of expirience with the Concap products and tested the last month a new product that's called Endurance and it works great with many athletes. I have an increase of 23 Watt and a lower heart rate minus 6 bpm.


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## TomH

DMAA. Its still legal, you could pedal up a wall


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## kbiker3111

pcrispey said:


> Hi guy's I just joined in after reading your topic on the Concap sup.
> 
> I have a lot of expirience with the Concap products and tested the last month a new product that's called Endurance and it works great with many athletes. I have an increase of 23 Watt and a lower heart rate minus 6 bpm.


You had a 23 watt increase from simply taking a supplement? And it was repeatable? Was it 23 watts each time or a 23 watt average? You should really document this and submit it for publication.

Why do I bother coming in this thread anymore?


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## spade2you

kbiker3111 said:


> Why do I bother coming in this thread anymore?


To feel better about ourselves?


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## Rugergundog

pcrispey said:


> Hi guy's I just joined in after reading your topic on the Concap sup.
> 
> I have a lot of expirience with the Concap products and tested the last month a new product that's called Endurance and it works great with many athletes. I have an increase of 23 Watt and a lower heart rate minus 6 bpm.


You have a drop of 6bpm? Nice this pill just gave you back 5 years of youth. Can i get it in a cream or by the gallon:mad2:


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## pcrispey

The 23 watts is an average value that I have over about 4 rides with a duration of more then 300 minutes.
Yes it was repeatable :thumbsup: 

All ingrediënts are 100 % natural.
This sup had notthing to do with EPO boosting !


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## spade2you

pcrispey said:


> The 23 watts is an average value that I have over about 4 rides with a duration of more then 300 minutes.
> Yes it was repeatable :thumbsup:
> 
> All ingrediënts are 100 % natural.
> This sup had notthing to do with EPO boosting !


They're also the same stuff in most vitamins over the counter and cheap.


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## kbiker3111

You should seriously publish. I'm not sure if its novel enough for _Nature_, but a totally new, natural substance that increases performance almost 10%* is a totally relevant case study that should definitely get you some recognition. 

*(lets face it, if it was less than that, you'd be putting out domestic pro numbers)


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## Guest

California L33 said:


> Your first post, Dude, your first post. (Hanging head). If you're going to pimp a product at least go to the Podium Girls forum and post 50 or 60 "I'd hit it" replies after you create the new profile so it looks legit.


:lol:


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## MarshallH1987

14k views on this thread... wow.
If you aren't anemic, taking something that will help red blood production isn't really going to do anything.
I did read somewhere that echinacea increased something related to RBCs but didn't end up increasing actual red blood cell levels.
I could see this helping a runner who is constantly crushing RBCs in their feet, or somebody with a crappy diet.


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## spade2you

MarshallH1987 said:


> If you aren't anemic, taking something that will help red blood production isn't really going to do anything.


Pretty much. Would only help if someone has pernicious anemia.


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## Undecided

TomH said:


> DMAA. Its still legal, you could pedal up a wall


Legal, maybe, but on the WADA prohibited list.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

Andreas01 said:


> But how do I say to put more at risk their health and career, with such dangerous substances, when there is a next-generation solution Sportagel, WADA certified?
> 
> http://sportagel.blogspot.com/p/la-nuova-tecnologia-degli-integratori.html


WADA does not certify any product.


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## TomH

Undecided said:


> Legal, maybe, but on the WADA prohibited list.


For good reason.. but very good point. Its a performance enhancing drug, and really is cheating if you're using it for competition.


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## Fixed

*secret*



pcrispey said:


> The 23 watts is an average value that I have over about 4 rides with a duration of more then 300 minutes.
> Yes it was repeatable :thumbsup:
> 
> All ingrediënts are 100 % natural.
> This sup had notthing to do with EPO boosting !


In October last year I did a time trial up a mountain, 2,800' over 6.5 miles. Took me 1 hour 15 minutes. In December, 1:10. In January, 1:05. Last Saturday, 57 minutes. My secret? Completely natural, available anywhere, completely legal -- lots of riding my ass off.


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## usmc5640

*EPOBoost works*

Simply put...this stuff works! I've been taking it for approximately a year now and I've seen my cycling race results improve drastically. I can train harder and feel like I can keep going day after day in big stage races like I wasn't able to before. It seems like I can recover faster and put down a much harder sustained effort for longer durations after taking this. I've seen many threads that are claiming that this stuff probably wouldn't work or "don't waste your money". Those are from people who haven't used this stuff! Give EPO Boost a try and you won't be disappointed. I'm a believer and this stuff will stay in my supplement box!


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## pcs2

usmc5640 said:


> Simply put...this stuff works! I've been taking it for approximately a year now and I've seen my cycling race results improve drastically.


How are you able to separate the effects of the "supplement" from the effect of your training for a year? (honest question here)

I can claim similar results to yours from the training I have been doing over the last year or so. I am much stronger, quicker recovery, higher power/endurance than this point last year. No supplements, just good diet and bike riding/training/racing.



usmc5640 said:


> I can train harder and feel like I can keep going day after day in big stage races like I wasn't able to before. It seems like I can recover faster and put down a much harder sustained effort for longer durations


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## TomH

Popping pills to win races isnt the most ethical thing ever..


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

usmc5640 said:


> Simply put...this stuff works! I've been taking it for approximately a year now and I've seen my cycling race results improve drastically.


Anecdotes are not evidence.



usmc5640 said:


> I've seen many threads that are claiming that this stuff probably wouldn't work or "don't waste your money". Those are from people who haven't used this stuff!


I don't need to smoke either to know it's bad for my health.

Which is why for things like supplements, we use proper research to determine efficacy and assess what, if any, ergogenic properties it might have.


Let's see. 
Number of Posts you've written at time of this response: 1

So instead of marketing clap trap - post up some peer reviewed research from reputable journals.


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## spade2you

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Anecdotes are not evidence.
> I don't need to smoke either to know it's bad for my health.


If it's true, think of what an entire multivitamin would do!!!!!


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## nightfend

spade2you said:


> If it's true, think of what an entire multivitamin would do!!!!!


Awesome! Centrum should be banned by WADA.


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## p23

EPOBoost is not a scam! I have been taking it since September of 2010, almost a year. I noticed a difference in my endurance and speed in just a month. Since then I have made significant strides in my capabilities. My racing just keeps getting better and better. I am able to compete at higher speeds and my endurance levels are tremendous. People are always asking me, "what is your secret", I tell them hard work and great support from my supplements, I tell them about EPOBoost. I am an ellite Triathlete and am on my way to Kona, HI for the second time since starting EPO Boost. I had an amazing finish my 1st time there, and I know it isn't because of "natural talent". EPO Boost works, Try it.


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## pcs2

p23 said:


> EPOBoost is not a scam! I have been taking it since September of 2010, almost a year. I noticed a difference in my endurance and speed in just a month. ...........


Again.......



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Anecdotes are not evidence....................................So instead of marketing clap trap - post up some peer reviewed research from reputable journals.


I'm betting your improvement came from the training you have done.


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## p23

*EPOBoost is not a scam!*

EPOBoost is not a scam! I have been taking it since September of 2010, almost a year. I noticed a difference in my endurance and speed in just a month. Since then I have made significant strides in my capabilities. My racing just keeps getting better and better. I am able to compete at higher speeds and my endurance levels are tremendous. People are always asking me, "what is your secret", I tell them hard work and great support from my supplements, I tell them about EPOBoost. I am an ellite Triathlete and am on my way to Kona, HI (Ironman World Championships) for the second time since starting EPO Boost. I had an amazing finish my 1st time there, and I know it isn't because of "natural talent". EPO Boost works, Try it.


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## spade2you

p23 said:


> EPOBoost is not a scam! I have been taking it since September of 2010, almost a year. I noticed a difference in my endurance and speed in just a month. Since then I have made significant strides in my capabilities. My racing just keeps getting better and better. I am able to compete at higher speeds and my endurance levels are tremendous. People are always asking me, "what is your secret", I tell them hard work and great support from my supplements, I tell them about EPOBoost. I am an ellite Triathlete and am on my way to Kona, HI (Ironman World Championships) for the second time since starting EPO Boost. I had an amazing finish my 1st time there, and I know it isn't because of "natural talent". EPO Boost works, Try it.


Something is wrong with your medula oblongata.


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## pcs2

p23 said:


> EPOBoost is not a scam! I have been taking it since September of 2010, almost a year. I noticed a difference in my endurance and speed in just a month. Since then I have made significant strides in my capabilities. My racing just keeps getting better and better. I am able to compete at higher speeds and my endurance levels are tremendous. People are always asking me, "what is your secret", I tell them hard work and great support from my supplements, I tell them about EPOBoost. I am an ellite Triathlete and am on my way to Kona, HI (Ironman World Championships) for the second time since starting EPO Boost. I had an amazing finish my 1st time there, and I know it isn't because of "natural talent". EPO Boost works, Try it.


Yeah, I know. You said that already.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

p23 said:


> EPOBoost is a scam!


Fixed your post for you.


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## mimason

Well, you could always fake asthma and get the breathing treatment inhalers...but then that would be cheating. How about good ole hard training????? Intervals come to mind and a good diet.


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## spade2you

So, you're trying to tell us the EPO boost, which contains the same vitamins in a basic Centrum, but costs a lot more is a good idea? 

They say a fool is easily seperated from his money.


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## p23

I am not saying there is ANY substitute for hard training to be a successful athlete. Let me give you a bit more info. about me. I started triathlons in late 2008 with some success. In 2009 I had even greater success. In 2010, my numbers were a lot like 2009. After starting EPO Boost in September of 2010, there was a significant change in my racing times. My training changed, because I was able to train longer and harder. Other than EPO Boost, there were no other changes in my routine. I wouldn't waste my time, or my money, if I didn't believe in the product. You say it is a scam, but have you tried it? It is almost a year for me and I just finished a race that put my in the top 3% overall female, which qualifies me for my pro card. After buying my first road bike in june of 2008 and swimming for the 1st time soon after. I just started running in the fall of 2007. I am just trying to help the people who are on the fence about trying it. Money back guarantee, totally legal, testimonials by athletes and coaches, not sure what else could make it easier.


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## 32and3cross

p23 said:


> I am not saying there is ANY substitute for hard training to be a successful athlete. Let me give you a bit more info. about me. I started triathlons in late 2008 with some success. In 2009 I had even greater success. In 2010, my numbers were a lot like 2009. After starting EPO Boost in September of 2010, there was a significant change in my racing times. My training changed, because I was able to train longer and harder. Other than EPO Boost, there were no other changes in my routine. I wouldn't waste my time, or my money, if I didn't believe in the product. You say it is a scam, but have you tried it? It is almost a year for me and I just finished a race that put my in the top 3% overall female, which qualifies me for my pro card. After buying my first road bike in june of 2008 and swimming for the 1st time soon after. I just started running in the fall of 2007. I am just trying to help the people who are on the fence about trying it. Money back guarantee, totally legal, testimonials by athletes and coaches, not sure what else could make it easier.



Is EPO Boost a gateway drug?


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## stevesbike

32and3cross said:


> Is EPO Boost a gateway drug?


only if the gateway opens to Stupidville...


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

p23 said:


> I am not saying there is ANY substitute for hard training to be a successful athlete. Let me give you a bit more info. about me. I started triathlons in late 2008 with some success. In 2009 I had even greater success. In 2010, my numbers were a lot like 2009. After starting EPO Boost in September of 2010, there was a significant change in my racing times. My training changed, because I was able to train longer and harder. Other than EPO Boost, there were no other changes in my routine. I wouldn't waste my time, or my money, if I didn't believe in the product. You say it is a scam, but have you tried it? It is almost a year for me and I just finished a race that put my in the top 3% overall female, which qualifies me for my pro card. After buying my first road bike in june of 2008 and swimming for the 1st time soon after. I just started running in the fall of 2007. I am just trying to help the people who are on the fence about trying it. Money back guarantee, totally legal, testimonials by athletes and coaches, not sure what else could make it easier.


Anecdotes are not evidence. 

I can find testimonials for power balance bands too. Doesn't mean they work.

I also don't need to try everything under the sun to determine whether or not it warrants my attention. I don't need to smoke cigarettes to know they are bad for me. But maybe I should take smoking up just to prove it to myself?

When assessing the ergogenic properties of a supplement, nothing, I repeat nothing is better than evidence. You know, that peer reviewed (in quality journal) research which has controls and blinding with good study design. And is repeatable and we build up a body of research to show definitively that something actually works (or doesn't).

Honestly, you are training, relatively new to the sport and are wondering why you are improving and able to cope with more training? I hope you realise that the more you train, the more you can train and this especially happens to athletes in their first few years of consistent hard training. Except you ascribe that change to a supplement with no evidence of ergogenic properties.

Your anecdote has been noted. Now if you have no evidence to post about the efficacy of this product, then there really isn't any more to add.

Now of course absence and evidence is not evidence of absence, however there really isn't anything in this product that you don't get by eating food, nor is there any evidence to support Echinacea as an ergogenic aid.


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## 32and3cross

I will reinterate what I said before I find it sad that people seem to think or seek out suppliments as a way to get better and then we wonder why there are issues with doping in pro sports. For most of us we are doing this mainly as a self challenge very few of us have what it takes to be a professional and so if thats the case why the hell would you want to wonder if the gains you were making were due to being smart and working hard or the fact that you were injesting some powder that made you better.


The mind set taht you should take some substance no matter if its legal or not to make advances sets up the mindset that pills/powers and what have you are nessary to good performance. Im not saying anyone taking suppliments if chearting or trying to or even condones it but we are living in a socity that increasing looks to medication to correct any and everything. 

Personally I refuse to take any of that crap for several reasons A) I don't think it does anything B) they don't regulate that industry as well as you might think, and since i have heart issues Im not taking anything that might make me sick or unwell C) I don't need it I made it from cat 5 to 2 after starting cycling at 32 with out any of that mess and I'm neither gifted or amazing taking some crap in a can won't make me any better.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

32and3cross said:


> I will reinterate what I said before I find it sad that people seem to think or seek out suppliments as a way to get better and then we wonder why there are issues with doping in pro sports.


People get sucked in by the claims and marketing hype. Athletes wanting an edge are easy targets for emotive sales techniques. I don't however equate looking for legal/non-prohibited supplements and being a road to doping.

For some excellent information on supplements, the Australian Institute of Sport has some very helpful information:
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/supplements

But this item is probably the best summary:
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/supplements/supplements_in_sport


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## 32and3cross

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> People get sucked in by the claims and marketing hype. Athletes wanting an edge are easy targets for emotive sales techniques. I don't however equate looking for legal/non-prohibited supplements and being a road to doping.
> 
> For some excellent information on supplements, the Australian Institute of Sport has some very helpful information:
> http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/supplements
> 
> But this item is probably the best summary:
> http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/supplements/supplements_in_sport


Well we disagree then.

Like I said I think supplements are not needed so Im not interested in studies thanks, I've read enough to know I don't need to bother reading more and my results have proved to me that I don't need that stuff to achieve what Im after and enjoy it, thanks.


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## spade2you

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> People get sucked in by the claims and marketing hype. Athletes wanting an edge are easy targets for emotive sales techniques.


Even with my love hate relationship with biostats, there's simply too much of an agenda going on to get honest results with a lot of stuff on the market.


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## thumper8888

Being a word professional I can't help but note that your writing style is much like a low-grade advertisement.


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## Rugergundog

Placebo affect. Helps sick people all the time.

Prob feed this crap to someone and tell them it will make them faster..........their own mind will convince them its working and they will feel better.


Ever seen people drink NA beer and think it was regular beer and act drunk? Ive seen it.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

32and3cross said:


> Well we disagree then.


Your claim is that someone who seeks out/uses a legal non-prohibited supplement (e.g. a sports drink, or an energy gel) is on the road to doping.

I disagree with you.


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## 32and3cross

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Your claim is that someone who seeks out/uses a legal non-prohibited supplement (e.g. a sports drink, or an energy gel) is on the road to doping.
> 
> I disagree with you.


My claim is that the mentality of "I have to use these products to realize my full potential" creats a mindset of "products are nessary" and that leads to the mindset of "where do you stop? I took that and got better so why not this".

I find it sad that people feel that is the next nessary step to improvement.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

32and3cross said:


> My claim is that the mentality of "I have to use these products to realize my full potential" creats a mindset of "products are nessary" and that leads to the mindset of "where do you stop? I took that and got better so why not this".
> 
> I find it sad that people feel that is the next nessary step to improvement.


I find it quite reasonable that someone, who is maximising their performance through smart and hard training, lots of recovery and good diet are also looking to maximise performance through use of effective, legal and ethical supplements (as well as good equipment and bike set up choices).

Do you use sports drinks? Or is that being on the road to becoming a doper?


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## 32and3cross

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I find it quite reasonable that someone, who is maximising their performance through smart and hard training, lots of recovery and good diet are also looking to maximise performance through use of effective, legal and ethical supplements (as well as good equipment and bike set up choices).
> 
> Do you use sports drinks? Or is that being on the road to becoming a doper?




Ahh I see I won't agree with you so your gonna take offense and try and pick my stance apart by pointing out anything I ingest could be considered a "suppliment. 

So for the record I "take" the following:

Electrolite drinks only when its hot water all the rest of the time. Salt tablets when its hot. Potassium and magnesium since I find it seems temper the tachicardia I have (which limits how much caffine I can have dispite the fact I love coffee). I take an emergency c each night most to stave off sickness from being in public buildings and riding mass tansit its prolly bunk my I hate being sick. In truth I could do without all of that and ride just as well tho I might cramp more since my diet is iffy. I did try taking Beta alanine for a few months a few years ago and while I seemed to notice some improvement I felt like it wasn't anything worth spending money on or that I could achieve on my own.

Im not really interested into getting into if gatorade is "doping" I know you can easily make and argument for and aginst that. 


What Im arguing is that you (because you seem to be defending the idea that supplements are nessary) are pushing the fact that to reach the next level you have to take something and yes I think that help build the whole idea that taking "something" is permissible and there starts the slipper slope. When you get past basic multi vits you quickly get into a land of suppliments that claim to basicly give the effcts of illegal doping products I find that pretty lame. 

Personally I think the view point that you don't have to take anything should be out there too as well as all the people spouting that you need this or that to taking to the next level.


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## cropduster

Anyone want to bet a dollar all the people endorsing this supplement work for the company? 

I think I did see a scientific article examining the effects of this supplement, it was in the december issue of Nature PEDs. The follow up article examining the mechanism was in PNAS, communicated by joe papp.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

32and3cross said:


> Ahh I see I won't agree with you so your gonna take offense and try and pick my stance apart by pointing out anything I ingest could be considered a "suppliment.
> 
> So for the record I "take" the following:
> 
> Electrolite drinks only when its hot water all the rest of the time. Salt tablets when its hot. Potassium and magnesium since I find it seems temper the tachicardia I have (which limits how much caffine I can have dispite the fact I love coffee). I take an emergency c each night most to stave off sickness from being in public buildings and riding mass tansit its prolly bunk my I hate being sick. In truth I could do without all of that and ride just as well tho I might cramp more since my diet is iffy. I did try taking Beta alanine for a few months a few years ago and while I seemed to notice some improvement I felt like it wasn't anything worth spending money on or that I could achieve on my own.
> 
> Im not really interested into getting into if gatorade is "doping" I know you can easily make and argument for and aginst that.
> 
> 
> What Im arguing is that you (because you seem to be defending the idea that supplements are nessary) are pushing the fact that to reach the next level you have to take something and yes I think that help build the whole idea that taking "something" is permissible and there starts the slipper slope. When you get past basic multi vits you quickly get into a land of suppliments that claim to basicly give the effcts of illegal doping products I find that pretty lame.
> 
> Personally I think the view point that you don't have to take anything should be out there too as well as all the people spouting that you need this or that to taking to the next level.


I've never said supplements are necessary, nor have I said one should use them.

I just think it's a very low bow to draw to say that someone looking to use a supplement leads to doping. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of your argument, that's all.

e.g. Since you are using a range of supplements yourself, has that made you more susceptible to the use of doping products? 

I don't say Gatorade is doping. I do say it's a supplement. 
Doping is whatever WADA defines it to be.

Note that not all prohibited substances improve performance.

BTW - there's no evidence that Vit C supplementation has any impact on preventing sickness (colds/flu). So not only are you taking supplements but you are using one that has no basis in evidence to provide the effect you are after.

My guiding principles on supplements are pretty clear:

A supplement is just that, supplemental to the primary means for improving performance which are: hard training, recovery, good diet and good equipment and set up.

When considering their use then I am guided by:


is one already maximising their gains through hard training, recovery, good diet and equipment and set up 

evidence - does it actually work? how, why, under what circumstances? Let the science guide you (and avoid the sort of marketing clap trap we've seen on this thread)

legality - is it legal under the laws or whatever jurisdiction you happen to be in?

is it prohibited by WADA or relevant governing bodies?

is it ethical to take?

does it have other potential negative impacts (e.g. gastric distress)?

what are the costs (balanced against the actual benefit)?

even if the above boxes are ticked as being OK, it still does not mean one should necessarily use it. Nevertheless, by using these principles, one is not on a path to doping but rather a process to educate themselves on what's worthwhile considering.


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## sdeeer

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> When considering their use then I am guided by:
> 
> 
> is one already maximising their gains through hard training, recovery, good diet and equipment and set up
> 
> evidence - does it actually work? how, why, under what circumstances? Let the science guide you (and avoid the sort of marketing clap trap we've seen on this thread)
> 
> legality - is it legal under the laws or whatever jurisdiction you happen to be in?
> 
> is it prohibited by WADA or relevant governing bodies?
> 
> is it ethical to take?
> 
> does it have other potential negative impacts (e.g. gastric distress)?
> 
> what are the costs (balanced against the actual benefit)?
> 
> even if the above boxes are ticked as being OK, it still does not mean one should necessarily use it. Nevertheless, by using these principles, one is not on a path to doping but rather a process to educate themselves on what's worthwhile considering.


If everyone followed that, much of the supplement industry be out of bussiness.


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## 32and3cross

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I just think it's a very low bow to draw to say that someone looking to use a supplement leads to doping. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of your argument, that's all.



Since I never said that you either don't read well or are just willfully ignoring what I wrote so you can put your own agenda out there.

Whatever its not worth my time talking about this with you anymore.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

32and3cross said:


> Since I never said that you either don't read well or are just willfully ignoring what I wrote so you can put your own agenda out there.


I can read, but clearly I am misinterpreting you. So just in case I am willfully ignoring what you wrote, this is what you wrote:



32and3cross said:


> Is EPO Boost *a gateway drug?*





32and3cross said:


> My claim is that the mentality of "I have to use these products to realize my full potential" creats a mindset of "products are nessary" and *that leads to the mindset of "where do you stop?* I took that and got better so why not this".





32and3cross said:


> yes I think that help build the whole idea that taking "something" is permissible *and there starts the slipper slope*.





32and3cross said:


> I find it sad that people seem to think or seek out suppliments as a way to get better and *then we wonder why there are issues with doping in pro sports*.


So perhaps you can help me better interpret what is you actually do mean, if you are not saying that seeking out supplements as an aid to improving performance is going to lead to doping?



32and3cross said:


> Whatever its not worth my time talking about this with you anymore.


Fair enough.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

sdeeer said:


> If everyone followed that, much of the supplement industry be out of bussiness.


Well the same could be said of homeopathy, chiropractic, naturopathy, acupuncture, and a raft of "alternatives" where there is either no evidence they work or evidence they don't work. Unfortunately they suck up countless billions of $ that would be far better used on real evidence based methods for health care and well being.

Now, what do my stars say today.... 

Ah - yes... "Take care today as your pugnacious tendencies may come to the fore with Mercury entering your sign and so you may find yourself engaging in an argument over things of little consequence as the true message may be lost on others. Do what you always do and stay true to your values."


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## Holdon

*Really!!!*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> You would do well to train more and listen to BS less.
> 
> People have been selling snake oil for the last 20,000 years.


Dude, shut up!! 

Seems like mama didn't teach you the whole say something nice, or helpful in this case, or don't say anything at all. Are you kidding me? Guys looking for help and you slam him! Your not grumpy your a prick!


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## stevesbike

Holdon said:


> Dude, shut up!!
> 
> Seems like mama didn't teach you the whole say something nice, or helpful in this case, or don't say anything at all. Are you kidding me? Guys looking for help and you slam him! Your not grumpy your a prick!


except he's right. The marketing of the product in question is intentionally misleading, unsubstantiated, and potentially dangerous. The so-called 'peer' reviewed evidence is really just a conference abstract or two (which are not peer-reviewed) and misleading claims about other ingredients. The evidence for echinacea is lacking, and what evidence there is uses a mega-dose that's more than 10x the amount in this product (and the result went away after 28 days of supplementation).


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## nightfend

As has been stated a hundred times on these forums. If a supplement really did give you any type of competitive edge, then it would be banned and put on the WADA drug list. As it stands, you are simply falling for an expensive placebo vitamin.


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## Kerry Irons

*Francis?*



Holdon said:


> Dude, shut up!!
> 
> Seems like mama didn't teach you the whole say something nice, or helpful in this case, or don't say anything at all. Are you kidding me? Guys looking for help and you slam him! Your not grumpy your a prick!


So your first post is to call out someone who posted his comment 3 years ago? Way to start off making friends as a new forum participant. It's a model we can all look to.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

nightfend said:


> As has been stated a hundred times on these forums. If a supplement really did give you any type of competitive edge, then it would be banned and put on the WADA drug list. As it stands, you are simply falling for an expensive placebo vitamin.


A supplement's ergogenic properties alone is insufficient reason for it to be placed on the prohibited list. This is a common misconception.


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## Local Hero

Hey guys I know this is my very first post ever on these forums but I really just want to give you the secret to success it's this new supplement called legal and lethal epo booster!!!! Yes the ingredients are the exact same you can find in any other product but our secret is a proprietary freeze dry method that preserves and activates the essential nutrients! My threshold power has gone up 17.23% in the last three months alone!!! I've been taking it for over a year and didn't see results until the first month and now I just can't stop winning!!!!!

Check out my website: www.EPOSuckerBornEveryMinute.com


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## Fussy

Yet another way to throw away your money


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