# More Rabobank doping



## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

This likely comes as a surprise to no one. But here it is...

Boogerd confesses to doping in television interview | Cycling News


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Its starting to sound like Rabobank could give the USPS "Most sophisticated doping program ever" a run for their money.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

But he said IN A BOOK that he never doped.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I think once the layers get peeled back, it will be shorter to list which teams didn't have a program in the late 90's. CSC was pretty good at it, ONCE and ONCE part 2 (Liberty Seguaros), Festina, Telekom, Kelme, and Mapei all seemed pretty good at hiding it for years which leaves me to believe the others were likely doing it too, just not as good.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

spookyload said:


> I think once the layers get peeled back, it will be shorter to list which teams didn't have a program in the late 90's. CSC was pretty good at it, ONCE and ONCE part 2 (Liberty Seguaros), Festina, Telekom, Kelme, and Mapei all seemed pretty good at hiding it for years which leaves me to believe the others were likely doing it too, just not as good.


With all due respect, Kelme was too busy giving people the wrong blood to be _good_ at doping.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

spade2you said:


> But he said IN A BOOK that he never doped.


Did you buy the book? There might be a class action lawsuit in your future!!


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

It seems like the only real difference is the approach. How blatantly did the team get involved in doping? Did they pass the drugs out? Or did they give the riders the phone number for a doping Doctor, a wink and a speech about getting results? 

Both wrong. The second harder to hold sponsors and directors accountable for.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

They all mentioned cortisone. How exactly does it help?


I ask because around ten years ago a college sports doc gave me a cortisone shot in the IT band (I almost puked) and I'm wondering if I should turn myself in to the authorities.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

The Tedinator said:


> Did you buy the book? There might be a class action lawsuit in your future!!


Nah. Any more, I just read books about beer. Beer hasn't lied to me yet. What's that? Have another? Good idea. 

See?


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)




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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> They all mentioned cortisone. How exactly does it help?
> 
> 
> I ask because around ten years ago a college sports doc gave me a cortisone shot in the IT band (I almost puked) and I'm wondering if I should turn myself in to the authorities.


If you turn yourself in, they might ship you off to a black box dopers prison. If you see Kevin Livingston tell him we've all been wondering what happened to him.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

But seriously, how does cortisone help? 

For me it was used to treat a crippling overuse injury. If a rider has such an injury, I say go for it! Aside from that use is there a performance enhancing use?


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

The Tedinator said:


> Its starting to sound like Rabobank could give the USPS "Most sophisticated doping program ever" a run for their money.



:lol: :lol: :cryin: :lol: :lol: :cryin: :lol: :lol:


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> But seriously, how does cortisone help?
> 
> For me it was used to treat a crippling overuse injury. If a rider has such an injury, I say go for it! Aside from that use is there a performance enhancing use?


It has several uses but most likely Booger used it to reduce pain. It was commonly used in TT's or in the final Km's of a race


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> They all mentioned cortisone. How
> 
> 
> Local Hero said:
> ...


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

> Here is an explanation, in layman's terms, from the Cleveland clinic. It covers the basics, what is it, what does it do, how is it different from steroids that act like male sex hormones.
> 
> Corticosteroids


Yeah, it kills muscle pain fast - as in gone. I've gotten shots a few times for back injuries (to the back muscles). Freaking unbelievable how well the stuff works - I've gone from needing Vicodin several times a day to nada and felt awesome . For the last week of a GT it probably feels like you are nearly as fresh as the first.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

To be honest I don't have much of an issue with an athlete using medical treatment to treat symptoms from an exceedingly painful injury.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

In theory, neither do I. The problem is that some of those treatments also have performance enhancing benefits concurrent with their therapeutic benefits.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> To be honest I don't have much of an issue with an athlete using medical treatment to treat symptoms from an exceedingly painful injury.


Neither does anyone else. That's why athletes can get exemptions to use various drugs (Armstrong covered up his cortisone use with a back dated rx).

Though if someone has a legit bad disc (or RSI, etc..) hurting enough to need cortisone shots, the likely aren't gonna do so well in the Tour.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Again, I'm wondering about cortisone as a PED. 

How does it improve performance?


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

AJL said:


> Yeah, it kills muscle pain fast - as in gone. I've gotten shots a few times for back injuries (to the back muscles). Freaking unbelievable how well the stuff works - I've gone from needing Vicodin several times a day to nada and felt awesome . For the last week of a GT it probably feels like you are nearly as fresh as the first.





Local Hero said:


> Again, I'm wondering about cortisone as a PED.
> 
> How does it improve performance?



Did this poast answer your question?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

cda 455 said:


> Did this poast answer your question?


Not really. If it were about pain, opioids would be used to avoid muscle pain. 

The link doesn't really show a mechanism of action that would improve athletic performance. Even as a pharmacist, I have no idea how steroids would significantly improve performance. I used to be on that crap a bunch as a kid and felt like crap while on prednisone. 

My gut tells me that confessing to only using corisone is probably not true.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

cda 455 said:


> Did this poast answer your question?


Well I already knew that it could lessen pain for chronic overuse injuries, such as what I experienced with my IT band. 

Does it also work to dull muscle pain during a workout? That is to say, could a cortisone shot help someone pedal harder because they would feel less during the ride? Is cortisone an injection of "shut up legs" for an otherwise healthy athlete? If so it is a PED. 

Does it aid in recovery, protein synthesis? Are there anabolic properties? Does it stimulate the adrenals and prevent muscle breakdown? Any of this would make it a PED in my mind. 

Or does it just work to allow someone to pedal through tendinitis?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Cortisone is an steroid antiinflammatory, it suppresses the immune system, reducing inflammation, pain and swelling at the site of the injury.

Using it gives a clear competitive advantage, specially on disciplines where injury and pain could put you out of the competition.

From the doping side of things, two positions could be taken from it, let them all use it or ban it for everyone.

I think the second option is better for everyone, because by eliminating the pain, it could produce bigger and more dangerous injuries on the athlete who is using it.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

OK, it seems that riders should turn to *legal* NSAIDs to reduce swelling, etc. 

Is ibuprofen banned?


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Not really. If it were about pain, opioids would be used to avoid muscle pain.
> 
> The link doesn't really show a mechanism of action that would improve athletic performance. Even as a pharmacist, I have no idea how steroids would significantly improve performance. I used to be on that crap a bunch as a kid and felt like crap while on prednisone.
> 
> My gut tells me that confessing to only using corisone is probably not true.


1. I agree that someone confessing to using only cortisone is likely lying. 

2. I'm reticent to answer, lest the 'I'm an expert and you are a nobody on the Internet' hammer comes out. 

3. The use of cortisone among cyclists is widely documented. Willy Voet, Manzano,USA cycling's settlement for doping riders, etc...

4. There is a gap between what dopers do and what is some kind of established medical fact. Dopers are looking for anything to get an edge and are willing to do stuff like fry themselves on uppers (Tom Simpson) or store blood in a home fridge (Ricco) or taking God knows what (Major Taylor rides the wrong way). None of that stuff made sense, but they were desperate for an edge. 

If dopers believe that cortisone reduces pain and increases recover, they will take it. Maybe it helps, maybe they get a placebo effect, maybe they are scared their results will drop if they stop, maybe their coaches pressure them. 

5. Football players abuse opioids. You don't hear about it much in other sports. I assume the possible negative effects - addiction, dizziness, generally being out of it, out weigh the pain killing effects. 

Bombing down l'Alpe wasted on Vicodin doesn't seem like a good idea to me.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bluenote said:


> 1. I agree that someone confessing to using only cortisone is likely lying.
> 
> 2. I'm reticent to answer, lest the 'I'm an expert and you are a nobody on the Internet' hammer comes out.
> 
> ...


1. At least we can all probably agree on that.

2. Meh. People on the interw3bs tend to be know-it-alls. A prof of mine once told me a story about a very arrogant student and that if he didn't drop the 'tude, he won't learn anything. Futhermore, if he really knew it all, he should be the one teaching everyone. 

3. I think we all get aches and pains with amateur level cycling. I'd like to think on a fully supported team that they'd be able to help prevent bike fit related injuries. 

4. To be perfectly honest, I'd think the side effects would probably outweigh performance benefits.

5. Not too surprised. It's too bad that professional sports really aren't trying to catch anyone.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> 4. There is a gap between what dopers do and what is some kind of established medical fact. Dopers are looking for anything to get an edge and are willing to do stuff like fry themselves on uppers (Tom Simpson) or store blood in a home fridge (Ricco) or taking God knows what (Major Taylor rides the wrong way). None of that stuff made sense, but they were desperate for an edge.
> 
> If dopers believe that cortisone reduces pain and increases recover, they will take it. Maybe it helps, maybe they get a placebo effect, maybe they are scared their results will drop if they stop, maybe their coaches pressure them.


lol 

Amen to this. Some guys will do anything for a perceived advantage. (But for some reason the amateurs never do the two unsexy things proven to help: Put down the fork and lay down a huge aerobic base in the winter!)

There's a rider on my team who takes countless ibuprofen with hopes that it will improve his performance. Now that I think back someone posted this article in the email list serve: For Athletes, Risks From Ibuprofen Use - NYTimes.com


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> 1. At least we can all probably agree on that.
> 
> 2. Meh. People on the interw3bs tend to be know-it-alls. A prof of mine once told me a story about a very arrogant student and that if he didn't drop the 'tude, he won't learn anything. Futhermore, if he really knew it all, he should be the one teaching everyone.
> 
> ...


3. I don't think cyclists dope with cortisone to deal with bike fit injuries. I think they take it believe it will help with performance. Push through the (muscle) pain and all that. 

5. Yes. Testing in a lot of Pro sports is a joke. ( We've agreed on two things. Well, it is snowy and frosty outside).

6. I wonder if doping via cortisone has been medically studied. Perhaps by the military? Or the Nazi's? Blood doping was studied by the military.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Perhaps subjective, but I think pushing through the pain is part of being a cyclist on any level. I would think pushing ourselves past our pain threshold could result in running out of gas prematurely. 

Even when being used to treat inflammation, it can impair healing and you're not supposed to do hydrocortisone injections too many times in the same joint or you risk osteoporosis. 

I feel bad for Vaughters that year his face swelled up and wasn't allowed to continue after taking a steroid shot.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

It has to be more than "push through the pain."


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> lol
> 
> Amen to this. Some guys will do anything for a perceived advantage. (But for some reason the amateurs never do the two unsexy things proven to help: Put down the fork and lay down a huge aerobic base in the winter!)
> 
> There's a rider on my team who takes countless ibuprofen with hopes that it will improve his performance. Now that I think back someone posted this article in the email list serve: For Athletes, Risks From Ibuprofen Use - NYTimes.com


Well, there's no test for "lemming-ness." 

Look at diets. There is no evidence that 'super model so and so's' detox diet works at all. In fact, crash dieting can be pretty bad for you. But a bunch if people will buy the book, try the diet and preach with the fervor of the newly converted. 

I'm not surprised that athletes would take crazy stuff because their coach or their buddy at the gym or their older brother's friend told them it worked. Right over the cliff....


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

I assumed the athletes where getting intramuscular corticosteroid injections into the quads - that would give you legs of steel if you got the shot the night b/4 the rest day (because you'd be in some pain from the injections on the rest day). I can't see how prednisone would do much aside from reducing general fatigue if one tolerates it well (only did a med-dose pack once).



P.S. Didn't know you were a pharmacist spade2you. My doc just told me about a patient of his who will be getting her PharmD next fall and she already has a job lined up for $160K + $25K sign on bonus! He had suggested I look into getting my PharmD 5 or 6 years ago - dang I should have listened to him!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

AJL said:


> I assumed the athletes where getting intramuscular corticosteroid injections into the quads - that would give you legs of steel if you got the shot the night b/4 the rest day (because you'd be in some pain from the injections on the rest day). I can't see how prednisone would do much aside from reducing general fatigue if one tolerates it well (only did a med-dose pack once).
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Didn't know you were a pharmacist spade2you. My doc just told me about a patient of his who will be getting her PharmD next fall and she already has a job lined up for $160K + $25K sign on bonus! He had suggested I look into getting my PharmD 5 or 6 years ago - dang I should have listened to him!


I'd be surprised if she was getting that much. The economic downturn a few years back disrupted the retirement cycle and this was combined with many programs starting or expanding online pharmacy programs. Since graduation, negociating one's salary and sign-on bonuses have mostly gone away. Employers are no longer fighting over us and I was 0 for 7 the last time I tried to leave my hospital. I could barely get an interview, which blew my mind and humbled me at the same time. 

Back to hydrocortisone, the depo injections are typically injected into joints. The drug tends to mostly stay localized since the joints aren't highly vascular. I'm unsure if this would escape detection. I would think injecting into the much more vascular muscles would be much more likely to show up in tests.


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

You guys are all missing the point about corticosteroids. No it is not anabolic. In fact it is catabolic. It is not a direct performance enhancer. But what it is is a powerful anti-inflammatory. It stops pain as a side effect of stopping all inflammation in the body. If you've ever been on a high dose of prednisone you'll know what I mean when I say you feel great—you have no aches and pains and all of the inflammation/swelling that is going on in your body because of over-use as in a multi day bike race is completely gone. That's probably why it's banned. You will perform better because of the anti-inflammatory properties, not because it's anabolic.

A big problem with corticosteroids is they achieve their anti-inflammatory properties by suppressing your immune system making you much more prone to infection. Endurance athletes are already more prone to infection so corticosteroids just make it worse. 




Local Hero said:


> Well I already knew that it could lessen pain for chronic overuse injuries, such as what I experienced with my IT band.
> 
> Does it also work to dull muscle pain during a workout? That is to say, could a cortisone shot help someone pedal harder because they would feel less during the ride? Is cortisone an injection of "shut up legs" for an otherwise healthy athlete? If so it is a PED.
> 
> ...


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> OK, it seems that riders should turn to *legal* NSAIDs to reduce swelling, etc.
> 
> Is ibuprofen banned?


Here's the list. I didn't see ibuprofen on it. Maybe the chemical name is buried somewhere. 

Some opioids were banned, some not. 

I'm assuming they give exemptions for legit use (say asthma meds).

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/g...bjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=MzQxNzI&LangId=1


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

There are many better NSAIDs than ibuprofen out there such as Naproxen. But comparing ibuprofen or any NSAID to prednisone is like comparing chamomile tea to valium.




Bluenote said:


> Here's the list. I didn't see ibuprofen on it. Maybe the chemical name is buried somewhere.
> 
> Some opioids were banned, some not.
> 
> ...


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Not really. If it were about pain, opioids would be used to avoid muscle pain.
> 
> The link doesn't really show a mechanism of action that would improve athletic performance. Even as a pharmacist, I have no idea how steroids would significantly improve performance. I used to be on that crap a bunch as a kid and felt like crap while on prednisone.
> 
> My gut tells me that confessing to only using corisone is probably not true.


As an asthmatic with a history of using prednisone, I could probably do a century easily while on prednisone vs only being able to do a metric century. 

And probably only feel a little loss of energy after said 100 miler. As a matter of fact, I bet I could probably do a much faster century as well. The saddle pain might still be there but the fatigue and energy drain would be non-existent.

However, I admit this is guessing from the original prescription back when I was first diagnosed with asthma in '98 where I took 7 prednisone pills in 1 day while on the 'taper up then taper down' prescription over 10 days (Spade, correct me if I'm wrong). But I didn't sleep much at all during that time! 

I would describe my experience with prednisone as feeling the same as taking a 2HR No-Doz pill except the prednisone would last for days.


FWIW; During the Sosa/McGwire baseball era regarding PED's, Hank Aaron said it best: "PED's doesn't make you a better player, it just makes you a stronger player."

That being said; I would assume PED's doesn't make you as awesome in the mountains as much as it would make you an awesome much stronger/faster sprinter for the finishes. 

I would also assume blood doping helps climbers in the mountains more via much more oxygenated blood.


Being a former open road race car driver/owner I would look at it this way:

Blood doping: High octane fuel; 109 octane.

Steroids: Nitrous oxide for very quick accelerations off the starting line and out of the corners (My car was turbo charged).


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Other than an allergic reaction I had, I was generally started on prednisone when I'd have bronchitis. I always felt like crap before. During the allergic reaction, I felt like crap. I was very jittery, a little shaky, and also couldn't sleep for crap. I didn't really feel like exercising at the time. I'd probably put more benefit towards sleep than prednisone from my own experiences. 

I don't think I'd want to be taking it and race, legal or not. 

Like many, I've indulged in hydrocortisone use with the occasional saddle sore, none of which near any races.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

The chicken on doping at Rabobank.

Michael Rasmussen: Leinders stored doping products in team bus | Cycling News


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

More on Boogie's confession. 

A lot of his doping happened before WADA. So the UCI and Dutch ADA get to sort out who would investigate / sanction him. 

I don't have a lot if faith in a UCI investigation. But if there was an ADA one, any kind of ringleaders should get lifetime bans. Dope Doctors and Directors have no place in the sport. 

Menchov, Boom, Dekker react to Boogerd's doping confession | Cycling News


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## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)

Rabobank's BIG problem.
Rabobank Faces Libor-Rigging Fine of $440 Million Plus - Bloomberg


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Catabolic steroids inhibit the inflammatory response. I've been racking my brain and I'm still unsure if this would help or hinder the recovery process.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Catabolic steroids inhibit the inflammatory response. I've been racking my brain and I'm still unsure if this would help or hinder the recovery process.


Any pub med papers on this? Perhaps it's been studied?


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## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Cortisone is an steroid antiinflammatory, it suppresses the immune system, reducing inflammation, pain and swelling at the site of the injury.
> 
> Using it gives a clear competitive advantage, specially on disciplines where injury and pain could put you out of the competition.
> 
> ...


This stuff was and still is big. It allows for day after day hard stuff. I've been told it's like magic.


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Reducing inflammation will definately help the recovery process. In fact, after a hard workout, your body will naturally produce cortizone to reduce excercise induced inflammation. The problem is that corizone is also very catabolic and it breaks down muscle as well as causes your body to store more fat. The bottom line is that yes exogenous cortizone supplementation will help if used for a couple of days during the intense climbing in the pyrenees, but you wouldn't use it long term for your training like test or other anbolic since that would be counter productive.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

threebikes said:


> Rabobank's BIG problem.
> Rabobank Faces Libor-Rigging Fine of $440 Million Plus - Bloomberg


Whoa, whoa, whoa :eek6: :eek6: !!


IIRC, they will lose an equivalent of about one quarter of annual profits: $440 million. Probably more.

I'm going to assume Rabobank knew going into last season their butts were being investigated.

I bet if that wasn't on their horizon last season Rabobank wouldn't have cared about the doping and probably wouldn't have dropped their sponsorship of the mens team.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

The Tedinator said:


> Its starting to sound like Rabobank could give the USPS "Most sophisticated doping program ever" a run for their money.


anyone who thinks USPS had some magic doping program that was better than their competition is naive @ best

it's not like they had some drug no one else could get, or had doctors that knew how to use them that no one else did

every major DS in the last few decades and every major GC contender has had doping scandals

what does a logical person infer? They are all doped


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

ever notice first thing they give big league pitchers after a long, hard outing? Cortisone shots. Yes, reduces swelling, kills pain and allows the arm to recover for their next outing. Now pitchers typically have 4 days off, think of cyclists where you are having long, hard outings for a week or longer. Pain is easier to 'push through' when it is greatly, chemically reduced or removed


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> ever notice first thing they give big league pitchers after a long, hard outing? Cortisone shots. Yes, reduces swelling, kills pain and allows the arm to recover for their next outing. Now pitchers typically have 4 days off, think of cyclists where you are having long, hard outings for a week or longer. Pain is easier to 'push through' when it is greatly, chemically reduced or removed


It also masks injury and overuse. Look at all the retired pro athletes that can barely get around or raise their arms over their head.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

bigbill said:


> It also masks injury and overuse. Look at all the retired pro athletes that can barely get around or raise their arms over their head.


yup. Maybe that is why pro cycling banned it. Because it masks an injury allowing one to continue to injure it


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