# The Once and For All, End All Be All, Disc Brakes vs. Rim Brakes Thread



## Rashadabd

This topic/debate appears to keep rearing it's less than handsome head in multiple threads and forums around here clearly irritating some of the participants in those threads. It seems to pretty much bring out the worst in RBR every time it happens. So, I am proposing that we go ahead and create a place to debate the merits of moving to disc brakes vs sticking with dual pivot rim brakes or direct mount rim brakes. To play the role of instigator or, dare I say, to offer an attractive platform for those that love to lose their crap over this topic, I provide the following:

https://blog.performancebike.com/2015/01/06/road-bikes-rim-brakes-vs-disc-brakes/

https://www.outsideonline.com/2149726/case-why-you-should-throw-you-rim-brakes-trash

Disc brakes in the pro peloton: Riders demand better safety for disc brake rollout | road.cc






Have at it boys and girls!


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## BCSaltchucker

what might work is this: make this the only thread to post disc brake whiner/flamer/troller/liar/obfuscatory posts in. then moments later .. lock the thread!


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## Rashadabd

BCSaltchucker said:


> what might work is this: make this the only thread to post disc brake whiner/flamer/troller/liar/obfuscatory posts in. then moments later .. lock the thread!


Ha! Good point.


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## Rashadabd

Forgot one:

UCI to continue disc brake trial in 2018 | Cyclingnews.com


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## Opus51569

I assume discs are better for:
* stopping in the wet
* heat dissipation for carbon rims
* less fade on serious descents
Though I have no evidence to support this.

I can say anecdotally, for my day to day riding my hydraulic discs don’t serve me any better than my calipers with kool stops.

The self-centering (or lack thereof) is my biggest complaint. I seem to be able to get a ride or two before one piston/pad starts rubbing again. I’ve gone through the various adjustments but no joy. Very frustrating.

For my next bike I’ll be looking for calipers again.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

Rash, thanks for posting this thread. 
Guys the disc versus rim brake debate started life on the Specialized forum in the new Tarmac disc thread and Rash I believe rightly moved it here for more general discussion. Nobody in the Tarmac disc thread wanted the debate and I understand that on one level as this is one of the more divisive subjects related to road bikes…rivaling electric shifting and aero versus conventionally shaped bikes.
As backdrop, many know the rim brake Tarmac is the best selling high end race bike of all time and won the TdF twice in recent years with two separate riders.
I want to register my vote for rim brakes. My position doesn’t have a lot to do with potentially slicing a rider in the pro peloton because we aren’t pros. Pro racing many know is a blood sport and more sharp edges over and above chainrings is a real concern for simple reason that riders end up on the deck in a pile up all the time in pro racing. So a lottery if your leg, arm or face ends up in proximity to a spinning sharp disc in a common crash. But many are divided on this issue as well and perhaps even questionable that this ‘experiment’ is currently in effect in pro cycling. I would hate to the pro that ends up being a reason for a ban on disc brakes until somebody can figure out how to put a decent guard over the disk edge that doesn’t add too much weight or aero deficit.
With the advent of dual pivot brakes with excellent brake pad material, I am strongly in the rim brake camp along with 98% of all racers in professional cycling. Disc brakes even now allowed to be raced are about as common fenders and headlight on a race bike aka almost unseen in pro racing.
Amateurs even more than pros will appreciate the 1 lb weight savings because of UCI weight minimum and of course there is fractional aerodynamic advantage of rim brakes as well.
But for the average rider who doesn’t do 60 mph descents like pros do who do just fine with rim brakes, biggest issue over and above how much cheaper high quality rim brakes are compared to hydro disc, maintenance is big difference. Opus nailed it. My experience as well. Maintenance is needlessly more fussy with hydro brakes.
Point of contention between the two braking types is, disc brakes just aren’t necessary…like putting Brembo 4 piston calipers and heavy rotors on a Toyota Corolla. Average Corolla rider will appreciate the weight savings and lack of cost not to mention added maintenance.
So I would like to put a query out to prospective buyers of road bikes in the future. What will you buy? My theory is…disk brake high end road bikes are typically bought by weaker riders aka 16mph MUP riders. Joe six pack seduced by big brand companies getting into pocket…what they do well. Among stronger riders I ride with, disc brakes aren’t desired. So I would like to ask riders that are CAT 3 or better. What type of brakes do you prefer and what kind of brakes will be on your next road bike?
Cheers to all persuasions.


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## DaveG

Now that this is solved forever, can we tackle the "tastes" great" vs "less filling" Miller Lite debate that was left unresolved


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## SwiftSolo

Opus51569 said:


> I assume discs are better for:
> * stopping in the wet
> * heat dissipation for carbon rims
> * less fade on serious descents
> Though I have no evidence to support this.
> 
> I can say anecdotally, for my day to day riding my hydraulic discs don’t serve me any better than my calipers with kool stops.
> 
> The self-centering (or lack thereof) is my biggest complaint. I seem to be able to get a ride or two before one piston/pad starts rubbing again. I’ve gone through the various adjustments but no joy. Very frustrating.
> 
> For my next bike I’ll be looking for calipers again.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm not sure what brand of hydraulic discs you have but since most are self adjusting, I would say that you have either a significant set-up issue or defective units. 

I ride with a number of folks with disc brakes and have not heard of this issue beyond getting the initial set-up right.


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## dcorn

I vote we designate the terminology 'rim brake' and 'disc brake'. Calipers can apply to both types of brakes so it doesn't really differentiate.

My opinions:

-Just like every new technology, discs will slowly become more popular with the masses and eventually rim brakes will fade into the past. The holdup is lots of people (and teams) have multiple bikes and multiple wheelsets that aren't compatible, so of course they won't jump into buying tens of thousands of dollars worth of new parts and bikes. Now that almost every manufacturer has multiple disc frames and some frames are being built exclusively for discs, people will start buying them en mass.
-I predict pros will go fully disc brake by the 2020 season. 
-Phantom rotor cut injuries will eventually go away, just like chain ring injuries and spoke injuries in crashes now. How many guys need to make instagram videos of them stopping a fast spinning wheel with their thumb on the brake rotor for us to realize the new chamfered rotors aren't sharp enough to cut. 
-Amateurs need discs more than pros because they weigh more, they use the brakes on descents more, and they absolutely need to stop on time when riding in traffic regardless of conditions

The biggest point here is disc brakes are an technological advancement to bikes because it allows each part of the wheel to only focus on one task. Now the rim can be designed to strongly retain the tire while being lightweight and aerodynamic. Designers don't have to design in a brake track and modify the carbon layup and resin to be able to dissipate heat properly while still being strong enough at all temperatures to hold a tire. You don't see any other wheeled vehicle in the world using its wheels as the brake rotor, why would a bicycle continue to do so?


I haven't had a problem with either one of my disc brake CX bikes, cable or hydraulic. I'm now in the market for a new road bike and I won't be buying one with out of date technology.


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## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> The Once and For All, End All Be All, Disc Brakes vs. Rim Brakes Thread


Troublemaker!  

I guarantee you only one thing. This will NOT be the last thread on this topic.


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## Lombard

Opus51569 said:


> The self-centering (or lack thereof) is my biggest complaint.* I seem to be able to get a ride or two before one piston/pad starts rubbing again.* I’ve gone through the various adjustments but no joy. Very frustrating.


My first question for you is are you removing your front wheel between rides for transport? If so, your brake lever may be getting pulled while the wheel is out. This will re-adjust the calipers for a narrower clearance so they will be too close when you put your wheel back in. If you remove a wheel, you need to make absolutely sure your brake levers do not get pulled. 

You will need to start over with a caliper spreader.


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## Teuthis

BCSaltchucker said:


> what might work is this: make this the only thread to post disc brake whiner/flamer/troller/liar/obfuscatory posts in. then moments later .. lock the thread!


Well, that would just defeat the purpose. We need to tenderly nurture and cultivate this thread so as to make it the most attractive venue for those who wish to discuss the merits of their preferred brake type, thereby funneling all that stupidity here and away from where the grown-ups are talking.


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## exracer

dcorn said:


> I'm now in the market for a new road bike and I won't be buying one with out of date technology.


I take that to be: a carbon tubeless wheelset, electronic shifting and of course disc brakes. If you had watched the vid, apparently rim brakes are not so out of date technology. Neither is mechanical shifting. At least not on a road bike.

No doubt disc brakes will become the preferred choice in the future and rim brakes will eventually fade. I have ridden a bike with disc brakes and I'd say they have maybe 15% more power but with better modulation. On a mountain descent, a good rider will easily make up any deficit rim brakes may have. The only true advantage they have is with carbon wheels in the wet. But then I ride with aluminum wheels and even in the wet (got plenty of wet weather riding in Houston, not that I planned it that way) my rim brakes were plenty strong. Even on group ride pace line riding 28-32mph in the pouring rain, I didn't have any fear about the lack of braking power. 

So for 99% of my everyday riding; disc brakes offer no advantage. Same goes for carbon wheels. Yeah, like they going to offer me some huge advantage in my day to day riding.


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## MoPho

11spd said:


> Rash, thanks for posting this thread.
> Guys the disc versus rim brake debate started life on the Specialized forum in the new Tarmac disc thread and Rash I believe rightly moved it here for more general discussion. Nobody in the Tarmac disc thread wanted the debate and I understand that on one level as this is one of the more divisive subjects related to road bikes…rivaling electric shifting and aero versus conventionally shaped bikes.
> As backdrop, many know the rim brake Tarmac is the best selling high end race bike of all time and won the TdF twice in recent years with two separate riders.
> I want to register my vote for rim brakes. My position doesn’t have a lot to do with potentially slicing a rider in the pro peloton because we aren’t pros. Pro racing many know is a blood sport and more sharp edges over and above chainrings is a real concern for simple reason that riders end up on the deck in a pile up all the time in pro racing. So a lottery if your leg, arm or face ends up in proximity to a spinning sharp disc in a common crash. But many are divided on this issue as well and perhaps even questionable that this ‘experiment’ is currently in effect in pro cycling. I would hate to the pro that ends up being a reason for a ban on disc brakes until somebody can figure out how to put a decent guard over the disk edge that doesn’t add too much weight or aero deficit.
> With the advent of dual pivot brakes with excellent brake pad material, I am strongly in the rim brake camp along with 98% of all racers in professional cycling. Disc brakes even now allowed to be raced are about as common fenders and headlight on a race bike aka almost unseen in pro racing.
> Amateurs even more than pros will appreciate the 1 lb weight savings because of UCI weight minimum and of course there is fractional aerodynamic advantage of rim brakes as well.
> But for the average rider who doesn’t do 60 mph descents like pros do who do just fine with rim brakes, biggest issue over and above how much cheaper high quality rim brakes are compared to hydro disc, maintenance is big difference. Opus nailed it. My experience as well. Maintenance is needlessly more fussy with hydro brakes.
> Point of contention between the two braking types is, disc brakes just aren’t necessary…like putting Brembo 4 piston calipers and heavy rotors on a Toyota Corolla. Average Corolla rider will appreciate the weight savings and lack of cost not to mention added maintenance.
> So I would like to put a query out to prospective buyers of road bikes in the future. What will you buy? My theory is…disk brake high end road bikes are typically bought by weaker riders aka 16mph MUP riders. Joe six pack seduced by big brand companies getting into pocket…what they do well. Among stronger riders I ride with, disc brakes aren’t desired. So I would like to ask riders that are CAT 3 or better. What type of brakes do you prefer and what kind of brakes will be on your next road bike?
> Cheers to all persuasions.


From another thread:


11spd said:


> You might like the disks because you live in hilly country...for fast descents. Me, I prefer rim brakes *because I live in flat country*.


So in other words your opinion is moot

And 7k+ miles on my disc brakes and the maintenance has been easier than on my previous rim brake bike.





.


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## crankout

Rashadabd said:


> This topic/debate appears to keep rearing it's less than handsome head in multiple threads and forums around here clearly irritating some of the participants in those threads. It seems to pretty much bring out the worst in RBR every time it happens. !


Go visit the Ebike forum at MTBR.Com for a similar pissing match among the pro and anti-ebike crowds.


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## MoPho

exracer said:


> On a mountain descent, a good rider will easily make up any deficit rim brakes may have.



And if the rider on the disc bike is also good?...




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## Devastazione

After two disc equipped bikes i’m going back to rim brakes,end of the story.


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## n2deep

Can we get some Weed to ease the pain of this thread???? A couple of kilos might do the trick!!!!


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## Lombard

Let's talk about a less controversial topic like chain lube.


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## 11spd

MoPho said:


> From another thread:
> 
> 
> So in other words your opinion is moot
> 
> And 7k+ miles on my disc brakes and the maintenance has been easier than on my previous rim brake bike.


Speaking of moot, you didn't answer the question. Are you a 16mph MUP rider? Or...do you train with CAT racers where speed matters? I mean, you can ride a Huffy with a coaster brake as well.
Yes, flat land riding puts less onus on brake type. But pros pretty much unanimously choose rim brakes and they climb and descend mountains average riders never see including speeds average riders never experience. They 'choose' rim brakes over disc brakes. Big brands want their pros on discs because they make more profit..why big brands sponser bike racing and why they exist....to make money.


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## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> I'm not sure what brand of hydraulic discs you have but since most are self adjusting, I would say that you have either a significant set-up issue or defective units.
> 
> I ride with a number of folks with disc brakes and have not heard of this issue beyond getting the initial set-up right.


What kind of rider are you? Guys in my group are pretty much all on rim brakes. Since I almost never see disk brakes among better riders or pros, my sense is disc brake love is an average joe phenomena.


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## SPlKE

Lombard said:


> Let's talk about a less controversial topic like chain lube.


That's an easy one. ProLink. _It's got what chains crave!_


Disc vs Rim? 11spd nailed it.


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## 11spd

MoPho said:


> And if the rider on the disc bike is also good?...


Best descenders in the world including Peter Sagan prefer caliper brakes. Same from 3 time TdF Chris Froome. Only time Sagan is on disc brakes 'on road' is on the VIAS because Spec screwed up on designing caliper brakes on that bike and why he chose the Tarmac rim brake bike for majority of his wins.


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## MoPho

11spd said:


> Speaking of moot, you didn't answer the question. Are you a 16mph MUP rider? Or...do you train with CAT racers where speed matters? I mean, you can ride a Huffy with a coaster brake as well.
> Yes, flat land riding puts less onus on brake type. But pros pretty much unanimously choose rim brakes and they climb and descend mountains average riders never see including speeds average riders never experience. They 'choose' rim brakes over disc brakes. Big brands want their pros on discs because they make more profit..why big brands sponser bike racing and why they exist....to make money.



Who gives a **** what pros want?! Pros ride under different conditions than the "average rider". And as I pointed out to you in the other thread, many pros train on disc brake bikes, because in the real world you don't get to use the whole road to descend and car traffic is coming at you.
And I am an A Group rider that has been riding for over 25years and excellent descender with a 4K foot mountain with 312 turns in my backyard, that makes my opinion about brakes far more valid than your flatlander ass 
Your assumption that weaker riders are on disc is a load of crap based on the fact that newer riders buy new bikes that are more likely to have disc brakes than the seasoned guys sticking to what they already have. Not to mention disc on race geometry road bikes is a relatively new thing. 
Where I live, quite a few of the faster riders have already made the change to disc and are loving it, but we have a thing called mountains here

Your big brand "conspiracy" can apply to anything sold on bikes, from carbon and aero frames to lighter components, etc.. Your constant reference to what pros ride and believing you need a light weight bike so you can ride flatland makes you a sheeple who is falling for the same marketing crap you accuse the manufacturers of 





11spd said:


> Best descenders in the world including Peter Sagan prefer caliper brakes. Same from 3 time TdF Chris Froome. Only time Sagan is on disc brakes 'on road' is on the VIAS because Spec screwed up on designing caliper brakes on that bike and why he chose the Tarmac rim brake bike for majority of his wins.


You don't know what they prefer. Again, their needs in a race are different and have no bearing on whether disc brakes are good or not. 



.


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## 11spd

MoPho said:


> And if the rider on the disc bike is also good?...


Speed of descending has nothing to do with brake type. If you understood bike racing, you would understand. Speed of descending has to do with talent, aerodynamics and ball size of the rider.


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## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Who gives a **** what pros want?! Pros ride under different conditions than the "average rider". And as I pointed out to you in the other thread, many pros train on disc brake bikes, because in the real world you don't get to use the whole road to descend and car traffic is coming at you.
> And I am an A Group rider that has been riding for over 25years and excellent descender with a 4K foot mountain with 312 turns in my backyard, that makes my opinion about brakes far more valid than your flatlander ass
> Your assumption that weaker riders are on disc is a load of crap based on the fact that newer riders buy new bikes that are more likely to have disc brakes than the seasoned guys sticking to what they already have. Not to mention disc on race geometry road bikes is a relatively new thing.
> Where I live, quite a few of the faster riders have already made the change to disc and are loving it, but we have a thing called mountains here
> 
> Your big brand "conspiracy" can apply to anything sold on bikes, from carbon and aero frames to lighter components, etc.. Your constant reference to what pros ride and believing you need a light weight bike so you can ride flatland makes you a sheeple who is falling for the same marketing crap you accuse the manufacturers of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't know what they prefer. Again, their needs in a race are different and have no bearing on whether disc brakes are good or not.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Even though you feel you need to waste your money on a slower disc brake bike, your BS was artfully written and made me laugh so you are allowed to stay.


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## MoPho

11spd said:


> Speed of descending has nothing to do with brake type. If you understood bike racing, you would understand. Speed of descending has to do with talent, aerodynamics and ball size of the rider.



Well then that makes the other posters point moot as well. And as I just said, racers get to use the whole road with no fear of oncoming traffic, they don't need to brake as much as civilian riders. Their needs have no bearing on the real world, so stop using pros as a metric, it is meaningless


.


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## MoPho

11spd said:


> Even though you feel you need to waste your money on a slower disc brake bike, your BS was artfully written and made me laugh so you are allowed to stay.



Yup, that 3/4 of a lbs is really holding me back :lol:



.


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## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Yup, that 3/4 of a lbs is really holding me back :lol:


 Correction. 1 lb. Ride in cooler weather so you don't have to fill your water bottle as much.


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## n2deep

Don't bogart that joint my friend, pass it over to me!!! Where's the popcorn??? Who's got the munchies??

WD40 is the best chain lube ever, hands down the winner!!


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## 11spd

exracer said:


> I take that to be: a carbon tubeless wheelset, electronic shifting and of course disc brakes. If you had watched the vid, apparently rim brakes are not so out of date technology. Neither is mechanical shifting. At least not on a road bike.
> 
> No doubt disc brakes will become the preferred choice in the future and rim brakes will eventually fade. I have ridden a bike with disc brakes and I'd say they have maybe 15% more power but with better modulation. On a mountain descent, a good rider will easily make up any deficit rim brakes may have. The only true advantage they have is with carbon wheels in the wet. But then I ride with aluminum wheels and even in the wet (got plenty of wet weather riding in Houston, not that I planned it that way) my rim brakes were plenty strong. Even on group ride pace line riding 28-32mph in the pouring rain, I didn't have any fear about the lack of braking power.
> 
> *So for 99% of my everyday riding; disc brakes offer no advantage*. Same goes for carbon wheels. Yeah, like they going to offer me some huge advantage in my day to day riding.


+1 in bold.


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## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Well then that makes the other posters point moot as well. And as I just said, racers get to use the whole road with no fear of oncoming traffic, they don't need to brake as much as civilian riders. Their needs have no bearing on the real world, so stop using pros as a metric, it is meaningless


If you were more sensible, you would use the whole road as well. I do. I have had good luck pointing to where cars should go when coming at me as I take their lane.
Try it. No reason to slow down. Disc brakes are for aunt Maybell.


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## MoPho

11spd said:


> Correction. 1 lb. Ride in cooler weather so you don't have to fill your water bottle as much.


Um, wrong! Friend has the identical rim brake version of mine and it is less than a pound difference. And as I pointed out to you before, most people are not riding weight weenie bikes, and if you are not in a race it doesn't matter anyway. Your argument is irrelevant!



11spd said:


> If you were more sensible, you would use the whole road as well. I do. I have had good luck pointing to where cars should go when coming at me as I take their lane.
> Try it. No reason to slow down. Disc brakes are for aunt Maybell.



Right, like I'm going take the word of a flatlander. You know nothing John Snow! :lol:


Flatland riding is just a bigger MUT


.


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## Maelochs

11spd said:


> If you were more sensible, you would use the whole road as well. I do. I have had good luck pointing to where cars should go when coming at me as I take their lane.
> Try it. No reason to slow down. Disc brakes are for aunt Maybell.


 I am afraid you are vastly misinformed.

You can legally and safely take the whole Lane. It is often the only safe option.

You cannot legally take the whole Road, and if you do you will die much sooner.

Clear? If not, think it through.


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## MoPho

Being a flatlander, you don't even need brakes at all. No brakes = less weight for all those hard efforts when riding up curb ramps :lol:


.


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## exracer

MoPho said:


> And if the rider on the disc bike is also good?...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Then it comes down to rider vs rider moreso than who has disc brakes. Comes down to who is going to take the bigger risks. Just because some has disc brakes does not mean you are going to be first down the descent. Granted that disc brakes should make a good downhiller better but that is no guarantee.


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## MoPho

exracer said:


> Then it comes down to rider vs rider moreso than who has disc brakes. Comes down to who is going to take the bigger risks. Just because some has disc brakes does not mean you are going to be first down the descent. Granted that disc brakes should make a good downhiller better but that is no guarantee.


In your previous comment you said that a good rider could make up the deficit that rim brakes have, but that assumes that only the rim brake rider is good. 
I never said that someone on discs would automatically be faster, but all things being equal, disc could allow a good rider to take those bigger risks. In fact, I have been in that position descending where I was able to out brake a rider on rim brakes but would have had to take a big risk to get by them, which of course was not worth doing since my paycheck doesn't rely on my getting down hills or to a finish line first 


.


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## Maelochs

Good lord people .... What You Like Is Better. For You.

If you are so insecure that you can only be happy with your choices if you imitate everyone and everyone imitates you ... I advise taking the whole road on fast descents.


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## Migen21

I'm a little embarrassed for Rash that he actually thought this thread was a good idea, or would accomplish anything.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

Maelochs said:


> I am afraid you are vastly misinformed.
> 
> You can legally and safely take the whole Lane. It is often the only safe option.
> 
> You cannot legally take the whole Road, and if you do you will die much sooner.
> 
> Clear? If not, think it through.


You don't understand. I many times close down the road I ride therefore I take the road completely. In fact, I have my initials carved in many of the roads I ride.


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## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Being a flatlander, you don't even need brakes at all. No brakes = less weight for all those hard efforts when riding up curb ramps :lol:


I think you are finally beginning to get the picture. Better riders rely less on braking. You for example would be better served to have a single front rim brake and convert your Tarmac to a fixed gear.


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## 11spd

Migen21 said:


> I'm a little embarrassed for Rash that he actually thought this thread was a good idea, or would accomplish anything.


Rash created this thread for me because he knew I would definitively prove that disc brakes on a road bike are like a 8 track tape player on a Harley.


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## 11spd

MoPho said:


> In your previous comment you said that a good rider could make up the deficit that rim brakes have, but that assumes that only the rim brake rider is good.
> I never said that someone on discs would automatically be faster, but all things being equal, disc could allow a good rider to take those bigger risks. In fact, I have been in that position descending where I was able to out brake a rider on rim brakes but would have had to take a big risk to get by them, which of course was not worth doing since my paycheck doesn't rely on my getting down hills or to a finish line first


But extrapolating from society and including your favorite case study pro racing, only slow guys who don't care about speed ride disc brakes. Disc brake riders are the nervous 'ride the brakes' guys down the mountain and rim brake guys are cooler, take selfies and smile at their fans down descents. Disc brake guys want security and rim brake guys sometimes don't even tighten their skewers because they like to live on the edge. A different mindset. Disc riders smoke a pipe for example.


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## Lombard

I hear grunting noises.


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## Lombard

Migen21 said:


> I'm a little embarrassed for Rash that he actually thought this thread was a good idea, or would accomplish anything.


I told you Rash was a troublemaker.


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## Lombard

11spd said:


> But extrapolating from society and including your favorite case study pro racing, only slow guys who don't care about speed ride disc brakes. Disc brake riders are the nervous 'ride the brakes' guys down the mountain and rim brake guys are cooler, take selfies and smile at their fans down descents. Disc brake guys want security and rim brake guys sometimes don't even tighten their skewers because they like to live on the edge. A different mindset. *Disc riders smoke a pipe for example*.


What are you smoking right now?


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## dcorn

exracer said:


> I take that to be: a carbon tubeless wheelset, electronic shifting and of course disc brakes. If you had watched the vid, apparently rim brakes are not so out of date technology. Neither is mechanical shifting. At least not on a road bike.


Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I rode this entire season on tubeless road tires and now running two different sets of tubeless tires for cross, so I'm sold there. But when I get a Di2 Tarmac disc, I'll convert the carbon wheels to tubeless if they don't come that way already. 

As far as outdated tech, that wasn't mentioned in the video at all. Bikes have basically run rim brakes since they had brakes on bikes. Bikes are the only wheeled vehicle in the world that use the wheel rim as a brake rotor. Sure, being so far out on the diameter means the super weak dual pivot rim brakes are strong enough to completely stop the rim in most conditions. But that doesn't make it good or modern tech. Yes, there is a ton of tech in carbon rim brake surfaces, but only because it was necessitated by the entire world having a bike rim brake standard that needed vast improving. 

I've completely avoided carbon wheels to this point because I wanted my brakes to work. Now that there is a viable alternative mixing lightweight wheels and really strong, reliable brakes, I'm all for it. 




11spd said:


> I think you are finally beginning to get the picture. Better riders rely less on braking.


Not the case at all. Watch the GCN video. Even though the data he collects is basically useless, he does come to an accurate conclusion. Disc brake descending is faster because the brakes work more reliably and accurately every single time and takes far less effort to slow you down. No matter the conditions, the brake feel is the same every time you pull them. That way you can carry more speed into corners, brake precisely at the right moment, then accelerate out of the turn. Put pros on the same disc brake bike for 10k miles a year of training to get used to the feel and they will be faster on discs, no question.


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## 11spd

Lombard said:


> What are you smoking right now?


Come on, isn't it obvious? Thanks for teeing it up for me. I am smoking you.


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## Rashadabd

Lombard said:


> Troublemaker!
> 
> I guarantee you only one thing. This will NOT be the last thread on this topic.


LOL! And you know it. We can always hope....


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## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> I'm a little embarrassed for Rash that he actually thought this thread was a good idea, or would accomplish anything.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


Don't cry for me Argentiiiiina..... Actually my goal was really to just try to move some of the debate to one designated place so that it doesn't take over the whole site. Carry on.... Did you put garlic butter on this popcorn Lombard? This stuff is good.....

Seriously, clearly there are some people that want to talk about the topic. Now they have a place to do it.


----------



## ziscwg

WTF
How is this even a discussion?

All the data models and testing have come to a consensus.

You've seen the evidence first hand on many occasions.

Disk brakes are better and safer.

If you disagree, you are a Disk Denier. Get with the program here to save everyone now........ your kids...... and their kids.

Pass the saying along
If you're not disk, yuz racist.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> Disc brake riders are the nervous 'ride the brakes' guys down the mountain.



Yeah, we call those guys flatlanders, hence your familiarity 




.


----------



## Opus51569

Lombard said:


> My first question for you is are you removing your front wheel between rides for transport? If so, your brake lever may be getting pulled while the wheel is out. This will re-adjust the calipers for a narrower clearance so they will be too close when you put your wheel back in. If you remove a wheel, you need to make absolutely sure your brake levers do not get pulled.
> 
> You will need to start over with a caliper spreader.


Nope. No transport involved. The wheels stay put. In my case, the rear wheel seems to be the biggest culprit. By the end of the ride today, for example, rolling the bike into the garage I could hear the rear brake rub/squeal. It's as if the piston/pad doesn't quite return fully after braking.

Oh well. As I said, I think they have their uses, but the benefits don't outweigh the hassle for the riding I do. Live and learn, I suppose.


----------



## Lombard

Opus51569 said:


> Oh well. As I said, I think they have their uses, but the benefits don't outweigh the hassle for the riding I do. Live and learn, I suppose.


I am not here to boast one type of brakes over the others. And it is quite apparent there are a few people trolling this thread just for S&Gs.

Regardless of what your opinion is on rim and disc brakes' performance, I'm pretty sure the problem you are having is not typical of hydraulic disc brakes. There is a specific problem. Are you sure they were set up properly to begin with? Hydraulic brakes are basically set and forget, but you need to do the set part properly.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Speed of descending has nothing to do with brake type. If you understood bike racing, you would understand. Speed of descending has to do with talent, aerodynamics and ball size of the rider.


You seem to be the only one here with such an astute "understanding" of the concept of going fast.

The fact is, using any kind of brakes while descending makes you go slower (that's why they're not called accelerators). It makes a person wonder why in the hell they even put them on race bikes?

On the other hand, the question of whether big balls are as effective as having brains is tough to answer for those without the latter.


----------



## 11spd

ziscwg said:


> WTF
> How is this even a discussion?
> 
> All the data models and testing have come to a consensus.
> 
> You've seen the evidence first hand on many occasions.
> 
> Disk brakes are better and safer.
> 
> If you disagree, you are a Disk Denier. Get with the program here to save everyone now........ your kids...... and their kids.
> 
> Pass the saying along
> If you're not disk, yuz racist.


Seen the data? In a field of 150 riders in the pro peloton, 145 are on rim brakes and only reason 5 guys ride disc is because their bike sponsors insist and their favorite movie was Goldfinger growing up.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> You seem to be the only one here with such an astute "understanding" of the concept of going fast.


Thanks. Why I feel it is almost my calling to help those less enlightened to spend less on a good dual pivot rim brake bike. I feel ultimately it will bode better for the sport, not to mention save on bandaids. No reason big bike brands need to turn more profit based upon the ignorance of the bike buying public. Of course a $2K bike is as fast as a $10K bike and there is that inevitable inverse correlation between bike price and rider prowess on group rides. Reality of amateur sport is, people always try to buy game. Disc brakes and will throw electric shifting in the mix are the $700 driver that every 18 handicapper must have to play better.


----------



## exracer

MoPho said:


> In your previous comment you said that a good rider could make up the deficit that rim brakes have, but that assumes that only the rim brake rider is good.
> I never said that someone on discs would automatically be faster, but all things being equal, disc could allow a good rider to take those bigger risks. In fact, I have been in that position descending where I was able to out brake a rider on rim brakes but would have had to take a big risk to get by them, which of course was not worth doing since my paycheck doesn't rely on my getting down hills or to a finish line first
> 
> 
> .


No, that wasn't my assumption. I was just saying if you have 2 riders that are fairly equal skill wise, the guy with the rim brakes has a fair chance of hanging with his buddy. And, let's be honest there are people that are going to equate having disc brakes vs having rim brakes as being able to go faster on downhill sections. In fact one poseur in a previous disc brake discussion thinks anyone with rim brakes is an idiot. 

All too often people think newer is (borrow a term) "hugely " better. Disc brakes, electronic shifting, carbon rims, tubeless tires. Seen it, heard it all before when I was on motorcycles. Every time the latest greatest piece of plastic fantastic hit the street; there they were talking about how fast they were in the twisties. The conversation would eventually get around to "when are you going to get a real bike?" I'm thinking "uh huh, those tail lights way up in front you, that would be me". When I was on motorcycles, some people (poseurs, squids, techno geeks) thought technology automatically made them fast rather than actually going out to a track and learning how to go fast.


----------



## aclinjury

Opus51569 said:


> Nope. No transport involved. The wheels stay put. In my case, the rear wheel seems to be the biggest culprit. By the end of the ride today, for example, rolling the bike into the garage I could hear the rear brake rub/squeal. It's as if the piston/pad doesn't quite return fully after braking.
> 
> Oh well. As I said, I think they have their uses, but the benefits don't outweigh the hassle for the riding I do. Live and learn, I suppose.


your problem is not uncommon to hydro disc. Sorry to say this, but that caliper will need to be rebuilt, its seals replaced. It's most likely the seals are preventing the piston from returning like they should. Many hydro disc brands will sell a rebuilding kit. Go to Mtbr.com, there's a whole sub forum on disc brake, you'll find better tips about your issue in that sub forum, but like I said, you'll need to rebuild that caliper. I have rebuilt a few calipers in the past, from Magura to Shimano to Hope. It's not hard if you're mechanically inclined, but if you're a first timer, it can be a mess with the oil, so be prepared with lots of rags and cardboard box (so the oil doesn't stain your patio, garage, backyard).

me, I just stay with rim brakes and aluminum wheels, on my roadies. Never heard of rebuilding a rim brake lol


----------



## Rashadabd

FWIW (and I know a lot of you guys have made your minds up one way or the other and don't care), the biggest benefits of going with discs to me are the added room for wider tires and the opportunity to rely on something other than a rim based brake track for braking (which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions). Everything else seems to be pretty close, so it should come down to personal preference. Weight is getting closer every day and companies like Scott are effectively addressing the aerodynamic disparity.


----------



## aclinjury

exracer said:


> No, that wasn't my assumption. I was just saying if you have 2 riders that are fairly equal skill wise, the guy with the rim brakes has a fair chance of hanging with his buddy. And, let's be honest there are people that are going to equate having disc brakes vs having rim brakes as being able to go faster on downhill sections. In fact one poseur in a previous disc brake discussion thinks anyone with rim brakes is an idiot.
> 
> All too often people think newer is (borrow a term) "hugely " better. Disc brakes, electronic shifting, carbon rims, tubeless tires. Seen it, heard it all before when I was on motorcycles. Every time the latest greatest piece of plastic fantastic hit the street; there they were talking about how fast they were in the twisties. The conversation would eventually get around to "when are you going to get a real bike?" I'm thinking "uh huh, those tail lights way up in front you, that would be me". When I was on motorcycles, some people (poseurs, squids, techno geeks) thought technology automatically made them fast rather than actually going out to a track and learning how to go fast.


lol ain't everyone has a story to tell in motorcycling! but you right, in motorcycling, especially the sporting crowds, it's religion to believe that latest stuff will buy you speed. It's even worse than rim vs disc in road cycling debate. But at the end of the day, we all the know the fastest guys thru the canyons, the knee and knuckle draggers, are:
1. the most skilled
2. big balls
3. tend to be younger guys without life's obligations

but honestly sometimes I feel that "some" our spandexter brothers here are like ballerinas sometimes, fragile beings who fancy going fast but really lacking the skills, and thinking equipment will buy them speed. I guess it's human nature to think that if you're slower than the other guy, then it must be our equipment that's holding us back. Seems like developing skills is old school. New school wants to just buy equipment instead of skills.


----------



## aclinjury

Rashadabd said:


> FWIW (and I know a lot of you guys have made your minds up one way or the other and don't care), the biggest benefits of going with discs to me are the added room for wider tires and the opportunity to rely on something other than a rim based brake track for braking (which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions). Everything else seems to be pretty close, so it should come down to personal preference. Weight is getting closer every day and companies like Scott are effectively addressing the aerodynamic disparity.


"which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions"..

where you from? Socal?


----------



## crankout

11spd said:


> Seen the data? In a field of 150 riders in the pro peloton, 145 are on rim brakes and only reason 5 guys ride disc is because their bike sponsors insist and their favorite movie was Goldfinger growing up.



Goldmember was a much better film.

Don't forget the importance of tire width and PSI when it comes to speed.


----------



## Rashadabd

aclinjury said:


> "which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions"..
> 
> where you from? Socal?


Nope, Georgia.


----------



## 11spd

aclinjury said:


> lol ain't everyone has a story to tell in motorcycling! but you right, in motorcycling, especially the sporting crowds, it's religion to believe that latest stuff will buy you speed. It's even worse than rim vs disc in road cycling debate. But at the end of the day, we all the know the fastest guys thru the canyons, the knee and knuckle draggers, are:
> 1. the most skilled
> 2. big balls
> 3. tend to be younger guys without life's obligations
> 
> but honestly sometimes I feel that "some" our spandexter brothers here are like ballerinas sometimes, fragile beings who fancy going fast but really lacking the skills, and thinking equipment will buy them speed. I guess it's human nature to think that if you're slower than the other guy, then it must be our equipment that's holding us back. Seems like developing skills is old school. New school wants to just buy equipment instead of skills.


Perfectly stated.


----------



## 11spd

aclinjury said:


> your problem is not uncommon to hydro disc. Sorry to say this, but that caliper will need to be rebuilt, its seals replaced. It's most likely the seals are preventing the piston from returning like they should. Many hydro disc brands will sell a rebuilding kit. Go to Mtbr.com, there's a whole sub forum on disc brake, you'll find better tips about your issue in that sub forum, but like I said, you'll need to rebuild that caliper. I have rebuilt a few calipers in the past, from Magura to Shimano to Hope. It's not hard if you're mechanically inclined, but if you're a first timer, it can be a mess with the oil, so be prepared with lots of rags and cardboard box (so the oil doesn't stain your patio, garage, backyard).
> 
> me, I just stay with rim brakes and aluminum wheels, on my roadies. Never heard of rebuilding a rim brake lol


More good info. I run Shimano dual pivot rim brakes on Campy bikes because they are so good. I think the GCN video what pretty revealing. And the comparison was on a descent that few...some, but few experience. Remarkable the rim brake bike beat the disc bike down the mountain in dry conditions...thought being, the heavier disc bike would descend faster


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> FWIW (and I know a lot of you guys have made your minds up one way or the other and don't care), the biggest benefits of going with discs to me are the added room for wider tires and the opportunity to rely on something other than a rim based brake track for braking (which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions). Everything else seems to be pretty close, so it should come down to personal preference. Weight is getting closer every day and companies like Scott are effectively addressing the aerodynamic disparity.


IMHO, the greatest advantage to hydro disc brakes is_* superior modulation*_. All the other "advantages" pale in comparison.

Great tire clearance? You can achieve this with cantilever brakes. 

Having something other than the rim as your brake surface? Since I don't ever intend to use carbon rims, this would only be an advantage if I want my rims to last 40K miles instead of 20K miles. At 3K miles per year, either of those will take awhile. 

I don't care about weight or aerodynamics as I don't race, so neither of these is a game changer.


----------



## Rashadabd

Lombard said:


> IMHO, the greatest advantage to hydro disc brakes is_* superior modulation*_. All the other "advantages" pale in comparison.
> 
> Great tire clearance? You can achieve this with cantilever brakes.
> 
> Having something other than the rim as your brake surface? Since I don't ever intend to use carbon rims, this would only be an advantage if I want my rims to last 40K miles instead of 20K miles. At 3K miles per year, either of those will take awhile.
> 
> I don't care about weight or aerodynamics as I don't race, so neither of these is a game changer.


Ok, but ummmm..... nobody is producing cantilever equipped bikes anymore. Not sure where you were going with that one. Modulation is right up there though. I personally think wider tire clearance is a bigger deal for a number of reasons, but modulation is important too, so good point. I do like carbon rims and prefer the idea of only having to replace a rotor and brake pads, etc. instead of a $700- $2000 pair of wheels every time the surface wears out. To each his own at the end of the day though.

Edit:

If you meant direct mount brakes, I concede that's a solid middle ground on some levels.


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> Ok, but ummmm..... nobody is producing cantilever equipped bikes anymore. Not sure where you were going with that one.


Not sure whether any are actually being made anymore. If not, there is still plenty of new/old stock out there:

https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...d=0ahUKEwiP0fr1n5HXAhXIZCYKHV9WB1sQ8wIIgAMwAw 

https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...d=0ahUKEwiP0fr1n5HXAhXIZCYKHV9WB1sQ8wIIhwMwBA 

Not that I have any love for canti brakes. I don't. Just saying that is still an option for wider clearances if you want to go that way. 



Rashadabd said:


> I do like carbon rims and prefer the idea of only having to replace a rotor and brake pads, etc. instead of a $700- $2000 pair of wheels every time the surface wears out.


This is definitely an issue if you ride a lot - especially in foul weather which can wear down brake surfaces a lot faster. While definitely a valid argument, I would not consciously choose disc brakes for this reason alone. As I said, I only ride 3K miles per year, I don't ride in foul weather, and my riding is spread out on a few different bikes. It may be a long while before I wear down a rim brake track. Also, I have never spent more than about $650 on a wheelset.


----------



## MoPho

exracer said:


> No, that wasn't my assumption. I was just saying if you have 2 riders that are fairly equal skill wise, the guy with the rim brakes has a fair chance of hanging with his buddy. And, let's be honest there are people that are going to equate having disc brakes vs having rim brakes as being able to go faster on downhill sections. In fact one poseur in a previous disc brake discussion thinks anyone with rim brakes is an idiot.
> 
> All too often people think newer is (borrow a term) "hugely " better. Disc brakes, electronic shifting, carbon rims, tubeless tires. Seen it, heard it all before when I was on motorcycles. Every time the latest greatest piece of plastic fantastic hit the street; there they were talking about how fast they were in the twisties. The conversation would eventually get around to "when are you going to get a real bike?" I'm thinking "uh huh, those tail lights way up in front you, that would be me". When I was on motorcycles, some people (poseurs, squids, techno geeks) thought technology automatically made them fast rather than actually going out to a track and learning how to go fast.



I am of the belief that the only thing you can buy that makes you faster on a bike (particularly for recreational riders) is the way it looks. The more you lust over the bike, the more you want to ride it, the stronger and faster you get. 


Now you said "On a mountain descent, a good rider will easily make up any deficit rim brakes may have. ", and my point is that if both riders are of equally good skills, the rider with the _deficit_ would not have the upper hand in skills needed to close the gap. So yes, your statement assumed that one rider is better than the other.

In my personal experience you can out brake (with disc) other riders when going into tight hairpins, but you have to have the skills and the balls to do that. You also have to really get it right or you end up going slower, which is usually what happens. And of course you are very rarely in such a situation that it would be worth doing, even in a pro race, why take the chance?

But I didn't get disc brakes because of some illusion it would be faster, I got them because I enjoy the control, consistency, and *feel* they offer over rim brakes, which to me feel like **** in comparison. I do a lot of technical descending and the disc brakes definitely give me more confidence and enjoyment. And they are even mo betta for the times that I have to go slow down the mountain due to traffic etc.

As a motorcyclist, you should be able to relate to how the feel of the brakes and other controls are important to the enjoyment (and safety) of the machine. Motorcycle and sports car engineers put a lot of work into the feel of the brakes, shifter, throttle, chassis, etc., for this reason. You wouldn't want to drive a Ferrari that had a squishy brake pedal, or steering that didn't give you any feedback. Mazda put a huge effort into how the shifter feels on the Miata, and it adds bigly to how fun the car is. For me, disc is about the feel more than the performance. 


I don't care what kind of brakes anyone uses, but it's really annoying that folks constantly have to jump in on any discussion about a bike with disc brakes and start crapping on them. Never seen a disc brake user get on a thread about a rim brake bike and start telling them how much rim brakes suck, etc.






.


----------



## Rashadabd

Lombard said:


> Not sure whether any are actually being made anymore. If not, there is still plenty of new/old stock out there:
> 
> https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...d=0ahUKEwiP0fr1n5HXAhXIZCYKHV9WB1sQ8wIIgAMwAw
> 
> https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...d=0ahUKEwiP0fr1n5HXAhXIZCYKHV9WB1sQ8wIIhwMwBA
> 
> Not that I have any love for canti brakes. I don't. Just saying that is still an option for wider clearances if you want to go that way.
> 
> 
> 
> This is definitely an issue if you ride a lot - especially in foul weather which can wear down brake surfaces a lot faster. While definitely a valid argument, I would not consciously choose disc brakes for this reason alone. As I said, I only ride 3K miles per year, I don't ride in foul weather, and my riding is spread out on a few different bikes. It may be a long while before I wear down a rim brake track. Also, I have never spent more than about $650 on a wheelset.


Yeah, I have zero interest in cantilever brakes. They aren't even on my radar. I currently have a rim brake equipped bike, but I plan on my next purchase being disc and I'm about 99.9% firm on that. It's just a preference I have after multiple tests. I like disc brakes, others may not, and I am fine with that. I'm glad there are different options available for people with different interests and needs. The rest of the name calling and elitism that colors this debate is for the birds in my opinion. Everyone should do them though (as long as they are doing it in the right thread/place  )


----------



## MoPho

Opus51569 said:


> Nope. No transport involved. The wheels stay put. In my case, the rear wheel seems to be the biggest culprit. By the end of the ride today, for example, rolling the bike into the garage I could hear the rear brake rub/squeal. It's as if the piston/pad doesn't quite return fully after braking.
> 
> Oh well. As I said, I think they have their uses, but the benefits don't outweigh the hassle for the riding I do. Live and learn, I suppose.


Try removing the wheel, then loosening the bolts on the caliper, then fold a business card in half and put it over the rotor and re-insert into caliper. Clamp down on the brakes, then re-tighten the bolts. 


.


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> I currently have a rim brake equipped bike, but I plan on my next purchase being disc and I'm about 99.9% firm on that. It's just a preference I have after multiple tests.


If you get a disc brake bike, make sure they are hydraulic. That is where to superior modulation comes from, not the fact that they are disc. Mechanical disc brakes have crappy modulation. Just my own advice.



Rashadabd said:


> I like disc brakes, others may not, and I am fine with that. I'm glad there are different options available for people with different interests and needs.* The rest of the name calling and elitism that colors this debate is for the birds in my opinion.*


I concur. Though as I said earlier, I think some in this thread were just acting the part for S&Gs and actually making fun of the elitists who make similar remarks and claim superiority of one type of brake over the other. 

Don't forget, you started this thread. You have been on RBR long enough to know where it would go.


----------



## Rashadabd

Lombard said:


> If you get a disc brake bike, make sure they are hydraulic. That is where to superior modulation comes from, not the fact that they are disc. Mechanical disc brakes have crappy modulation. Just my own advice.
> 
> 
> 
> I concur. Though as I said earlier, I think some in this thread were just acting the part for S&Gs and actually making fun of the elitists who make similar remarks and claim superiority of one type of brake over the other.
> 
> Don't forget, you started this thread. You have been on RBR long enough to know where it would go.


Oh, it's absolutely hydraulic or nothing. I am actually only really looking at Scott options at this point and they don't really offer much below Tiagra and 105 (both hydro) for their carbon bikes. Yes, I knew where it would go, but like I said before, I prefer this over having to read this same debate in multiple threads all over the site every time a disc brake equipped bike is mentioned. If it's in it's place, I can deal because I can easily stop coming to this thread if I get tired of it (which is coming soon). If the same debate and bickering/demeaning behavior takes over multiple threads all over the place, it makes people want to leave the site, which is not good IMO. It's not my thing per se, but this is fine to me.

https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/product/scott-addict-rc-20-disc-bike?article=265347023

https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/product/scott-foil-20-disc-bike?article=265334022

https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/product/scott-addict-20-disc-bike?article=265351025


----------



## 11spd

crankout said:


> Goldmember was a much better film.
> 
> Don't forget the importance of *tire width and PSI *when it comes to speed.


In bold, were the same in GCN rim versus disc test. Rim brake beat the disc bike down the mountain in the dry.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> *I am of the belief that the only thing you can buy that makes you faster on a bike (particularly for recreational riders) is the way it looks. *The more you lust over the bike, the more you want to ride it, the stronger and faster you get.
> 
> 
> Now you said "On a mountain descent, a good rider will easily make up any deficit rim brakes may have. ", and my point is that if both riders are of equally good skills, the rider with the _deficit_ would not have the upper hand in skills needed to close the gap. So yes, your statement assumed that one rider is better than the other.
> 
> In my personal experience you can out brake (with disc) other riders when going into tight hairpins, but you have to have the skills and the balls to do that. You also have to really get it right or you end up going slower, which is usually what happens. And of course you are very rarely in such a situation that it would be worth doing, even in a pro race, why take the chance?
> 
> But I didn't get disc brakes because of some illusion it would be faster, I got them because I enjoy the control, consistency, and *feel* they offer over rim brakes, which to me feel like **** in comparison. I do a lot of technical descending and the disc brakes definitely give me more confidence and enjoyment. And they are even mo betta for the times that I have to go slow down the mountain due to traffic etc.
> 
> As a motorcyclist, you should be able to relate to how the feel of the brakes and other controls are important to the enjoyment (and safety) of the machine. Motorcycle and sports car engineers put a lot of work into the feel of the brakes, shifter, throttle, chassis, etc., for this reason. You wouldn't want to drive a Ferrari that had a squishy brake pedal, or steering that didn't give you any feedback. Mazda put a huge effort into how the shifter feels on the Miata, and it adds bigly to how fun the car is. For me, disc is about the feel more than the performance.
> 
> 
> I don't care what kind of brakes anyone uses, but it's really annoying that folks constantly have to jump in on any discussion about a bike with disc brakes and start crapping on them. Never seen a disc brake user get on a thread about a rim brake bike and start telling them how much rim brakes suck, etc.


Your first sentence pretty much summarizes how little you know about cycling. Certainly disc brakes don't make you faster, the pros and I and others believe the opposite. Certainly not electric shifting.
If you have ever ridden a 18 lb bike upon a hill versus a 13 lb bike, you would know that weight matters. Aero matters as well...frame fractionally and wheels more..both not that big a deal but fractional. Disc brakes are antithetical to both above.
Tire compound, carcass suppleness and tire pressure matter. Reason different tires and pressure are run in the Paris Roubaix versus TdF for example.

So, there are aspects of newer bike tech making a bike faster. Disk brakes and electrical shifting aren't part of that tech.

You need to rewatch the GCN video at the beginning of the thread. Simon wouldn't even say he preferred the 'feel' of disc brakes you are so keen on.
Bottom line. On the value analysis ledger ever design engineer consider, performance cost versus benefit, rim brakes even though not the latest invention is still king in aggregate. Rim brakes have evolved substantially even in the last 10 years. The wheel was an early invention as well that has stood the test of time...lol.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

11spd said:


> Seen the data? In a field of 150 riders in the pro peloton, 145 are on rim brakes and only reason 5 guys ride disc is because their bike sponsors insist and their favorite movie was Goldfinger growing up.


saw the data when only 3 or 4 top pro riders were using brake-shifters while the other 200 were using downtube shifters still. by your logics the pros had proven at that point that downtube shifters are probably better and brake shifters don't make a rider faster and are a waste of money. so they might as well have scrapped the whole idea of brake-shifters there and then.

.. when in reality just because the pros haven't adopted it yet, doesn't mean it ain't better and won't become universally adopted by all the pros eventually.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> Your first sentence pretty much summarizes how little you know about cycling. Certainly disc brakes don't make you faster, the pros and I and others believe the opposite. Certainly not electric shifting.
> If you have ever ridden a 18 lb bike upon a hill versus a 13 lb bike, you would know that weight matters. Aero matters as well...frame fractionally and wheels more..both not that big a deal but fractional. Disc brakes are antithetical to both above.
> Tire compound, carcass suppleness and tire pressure matter. Reason different tires and pressure are run in the Paris Roubaix versus TdF for example.
> 
> So, there are aspects of newer bike tech making a bike faster. Disk brakes and electrical shifting aren't part of that tech.



 No, my first sentence summarizes the reality of cycling! And unless your paycheck relies on you getting up a hill first, having an 18lb bike vs a 13lb bike means ****! 

And you're a flatlander, having a light bike is only good for measurbating with your friends at Starbucks 





> You need to rewatch the GCN video at the beginning of the thread. Simon wouldn't even say he preferred the 'feel' of disc brakes you are so keen on.
> Bottom line.


Uh, at the end of the video he says the feel gave him more confidence. And that test proves nothing, as soon as they put corners into it, it made it about the rider more than the bike.




.


----------



## Rashadabd

BCSaltchucker said:


> saw the data when only 3 or 4 top pro riders were using brake-shifters while the other 200 were using downtube shifters still. by your logics the pros had proven at that point that downtube shifters are probably better and brake shifters don't make a rider faster and are a waste of money. so they might as well have scrapped the whole idea of brake-shifters there and then.
> 
> .. when in reality just because the pros haven't adopted it yet, doesn't mean it ain't better and won't become universally adopted by all the pros eventually.


Yep. Let's go ahead and clarify this whole pro peloton thing. It's happening and probably around 2019. This is from the article linked on the first page. There is more out there confirming this if any of you want to look for it:

"It is expected the UCI will decide on the safety and technical standards, as well as any neutral support issues, for the 2019 season following the extensive trial lasting three seasons.

Ahead of any decision extended dialogue from the stakeholders of the CPA (Cyclistes Professionels Associés) and the WFSGI (World Federation of the Sporting Goods Industry) is expected."


----------



## Rashadabd

Wholesale use of disc brakes in pro peloton is inevitable, says Pozzato | Cyclingnews.com

Aqua Blue Sport will already be riding full-time on disc brakes and a 1x system starting next year. 

Aqua Blue Sport to ride 3T STRADA bike in 2018 peloton - Sticky Bottle

Aqua Blue Sport to compete on 3T Strada disc bike with 1x drivetrain in 2018 | Cyclingnews.com

Aqua Blue Sport to ride 'innovative' 3T Strada aero bike in 2018 - Cycling Weekly


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> No, my first sentence summarizes the reality of cycling! And unless your paycheck relies on you getting up a hill first, having an 18lb bike vs a 13lb bike means ****!
> 
> And you're a flatlander, having a light bike is only good for measurbating with your friends at Starbucks


You just defined our disconnect. You don't care about beating your friends up a hill. I do. I want tech to augment what ability as a cyclist I have.

I guess what I don't understand since you don't care about 5 lbs of weight or aerodynamics, why aren't you riding a Dutch bike?
Just because they don't have disc brakes and electric shifting, you can at least carry groceries.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> You just defined our disconnect. You don't care about beating your friends up a hill. I do. I want tech to augment what ability as a cyclist I have.
> 
> I guess what I don't understand since you don't care about 5 lbs of weight or aerodynamics, why aren't you riding a Dutch bike?
> Just because they don't have disc brakes and electric shifting, you can at least carry groceries.



Maybe you should get stronger instead of thinking you can buy your way to being faster. 

I went from a 14lb bike to a 16.5lb bike and I am faster up hills on the heavier bike, by a lot!


And I also care about going down technical descents, you should try it some day. Your driveway doesn't count :wink:



.


----------



## 11spd

dcorn said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I rode this entire season on tubeless road tires and now running two different sets of tubeless tires for cross, so I'm sold there. But when I get a Di2 Tarmac disc, I'll convert the carbon wheels to tubeless if they don't come that way already.
> 
> As far as outdated tech, that wasn't mentioned in the video at all. Bikes have basically run rim brakes since they had brakes on bikes. Bikes are the only wheeled vehicle in the world that use the wheel rim as a brake rotor. Sure, being so far out on the diameter means the super weak dual pivot rim brakes are strong enough to completely stop the rim in most conditions. But that doesn't make it good or modern tech. Yes, there is a ton of tech in carbon rim brake surfaces, but only because it was necessitated by the entire world having a bike rim brake standard that needed vast improving.
> 
> I've completely avoided carbon wheels to this point because I wanted my brakes to work. Now that there is a viable alternative mixing lightweight wheels and really strong, reliable brakes, I'm all for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not the case at all. Watch the GCN video. Even though the data he collects is basically useless, he does come to an accurate conclusion. Disc brake descending is faster because the brakes work more reliably and accurately every single time and takes far less effort to slow you down. No matter the conditions, the brake feel is the same every time you pull them. That way you can carry more speed into corners, brake precisely at the right moment, then accelerate out of the turn. Put pros on the same disc brake bike for 10k miles a year of training to get used to the feel and they will be faster on discs, no question.


 You must not have watched the opening GCN video. The rim brake bike beat the disc brake bike down the mountain in the dry. And of course there would have been even greater disparity up the mountain that the video didn’t address. Re-watch the video. Maybe you will get it the second time.


----------



## MoPho

BTW 11spd, see this pic below, notice the guy without a shirt on riding a big old heavy bike (think it weighs around 30lbs)? He is keeping up with some of the strongest riders in LA up one of the most famous climbs in the LA South Bay (the domes). We call him "shirtless Keith", he rides that bike 400+ miles a week around Palos Verdes wearing those shorts and work boots and smokes almost everyone up hills. In fact there is video out there of him giving a hard time up a climb to a cyclist who is a two time winner of the LeMons 24hr Velo 
You want to get faster, ride more! 














.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Maybe you should get stronger instead of thinking you can buy your way to being faster.
> 
> *I went from a 14lb bike to a 16.5lb bike and I am faster up hills on the heavier bike, by a lot!
> *
> 
> And I also care about going down technical descents, you should try it some day. Your driveway doesn't count :wink:
> 
> .


Defying the law of physics?...lol.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

weight is just a matter of budget. for the pros weight is not a major concern as they have to deal with weight minimum and disc brakes easily achieve that minimum.

have to consider the pros and cons of everything though. and disc brakes do have a few cons - though they are not the cons 11sp thinks they are. Main con to disk brakes is that it messes up compatibility with older equipment, as many of us have non disc wheels that can't be used on modern thru axle disc frames. And when travelling with your bike, the ability to be able to fix a brake cable is trivial compared to the tools and supplies and skill needed to repair a hydraulic system when away from home.

and otoh look at the major pros in favour of discs: tire choices being right up there with braking control. many rim brake bikes (like mine) cannot even fit 28mm tires under the calipers/bridge/fork. fitting fenders also is a major pain with rim brake road bikes, but easy with discs. Rim brakes makes the bike less versatile as a result. Then there is braking surface on carbon rims - eventually destroys the rims at great expense. and of course wet braking is a huge disparity, esp for me in a rain forest region. And then also consider that the average rider is a lot heavier than the average pro rider - braking needs can be somewhat different as a result.

fwiw I still don't have disc brakes on my road bike. but i'd love to have a bike with them eventually (I live in the land of rain and 18% hills and mountains)


----------



## Lombard

11spd said:


> You just defined our disconnect. You don't care about beating your friends up a hill. I do. I want tech to augment what ability as a cyclist I have.
> 
> I guess what I don't understand since you don't care about 5 lbs of weight or aerodynamics, why aren't you riding a Dutch bike?
> Just because they don't have disc brakes and electric shifting, you can at least carry groceries.


Where is her helmet??


----------



## 11spd

That argument comes up from time to time. There are 'shirtless Keiths' all over and btw, a separate discussion because most believe guys like that are really robots engineered by the Japanese who are doing their beta testing in America and sometimes supplemented with electric motors buried in the BB. So a separate discussion. Also notice, Keith is on rim brakes because he knows they climb faster due to lower weight and better aerodynamics.

But your silly point about getting stronger is just that..silly. The bike still matters. Everybody has a strength threshold even among pro riders you like to talk about with ridiculous FTP. A modern pro is faster on a modern bike versus a bike of 30 years ago.



MoPho said:


> BTW 11spd, see this pic below, notice the guy without a shirt on riding a big old heavy bike (think it weighs around 30lbs)? He is keeping up with some of the strongest riders in LA up one of the most famous climbs in the LA South Bay (the domes). We call him "shirtless Keith", he rides that bike 400+ miles a week around Palos Verdes wearing those shorts and work boots and smokes almost everyone up hills. In fact there is video out there of him giving a hard time up a climb to a cyclist who is a two time winner of the LeMons 24hr Velo
> You want to get faster, ride more!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> Yes, I knew where it would go, but like I said before, I prefer this over having to read this same debate in multiple threads all over the site every time a disc brake equipped bike is mentioned. If it's in it's place, I can deal because I can easily stop coming to this thread if I get tired of it (which is coming soon). If the same debate and bickering/demeaning behavior takes over multiple threads all over the place, it makes people want to leave the site, which is not good IMO.


I don't take a lot of these people too seriously. Right now, 11 spd and MoPho are fighting over who has the bigger Johnson. I'm actually finding it mildly entertaining and amusing.


----------



## MoPho

Lombard said:


> I don't take a lot of these people too seriously. Right now, 11 spd and MoPho are fighting over who has the bigger Johnson. I'm actually finding it mildly entertaining and amusing.



Mine is bigger, his is lighter :lol:


.


----------



## SPlKE

Lombard said:


> I don't take a lot of these people too seriously. Right now, 11 spd and MoPho are fighting over who has the bigger Johnson. I'm actually finding it mildly entertaining and amusing.


I ran out of popcorn two days ago.

Good thing this is The Once and For All, End All Be All, Disc Brakes vs. Rim Brakes Thread. I'm already into my Q1 FY2018 popcorn budget.

And I haven't even weighed in yet on the astonishing bigliness of my Johnson.


----------



## Fredrico

Rashadabd said:


> Wholesale use of disc brakes in pro peloton is inevitable, says Pozzato | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Aqua Blue Sport will already be riding full-time on disc brakes and a 1x system starting next year.
> 
> Aqua Blue Sport to ride 3T STRADA bike in 2018 peloton - Sticky Bottle
> 
> Aqua Blue Sport to compete on 3T Strada disc bike with 1x drivetrain in 2018 | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Aqua Blue Sport to ride 'innovative' 3T Strada aero bike in 2018 - Cycling Weekly


If the discs are self centering, it'll be a piece of cake to change wheels. discs used to be a PITA to adjust, tolerances being so small.


----------



## 11spd

Opus51569 said:


> I assume discs are better for:
> * stopping in the wet
> * heat dissipation for carbon rims
> * less fade on serious descents
> Though I have no evidence to support this.
> 
> I can say anecdotally, for my day to day riding my hydraulic discs don’t serve me any better than my calipers with kool stops.
> 
> The self-centering (or lack thereof) is my biggest complaint. I seem to be able to get a ride or two before one piston/pad starts rubbing again. I’ve gone through the various adjustments but no joy. Very frustrating.
> 
> For my next bike I’ll be looking for calipers again.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


A common refrain including in this thread. Sorry, you had to go through the exercise of buying a hydraulic disc bike only to realize you spent more for a heavier, less aerodynamic bike that is a much greater PITA to maintain.

That is the reality of disc road bikes. Discs are worth it, if not preferred for off road and even cross in my personal experience. Just not the right priority on the road. If living in the mountains and riding a lot in the rain, I believe discs even on a road bike should be considered which will depend on the rider. Some even in these conditions will still prefer rim brakes but others may believe the downside of owning a disc brake is worth it in the mountains as a lighter build is generally preferred for going up the mountain. For all other riders including competitive riding to me this isn’t even a consideration. Rim brake bike everyday to avert the downside of disc ownership. It’s a value analysis, pro versus con. Uninformed take a disc brake out of the shop for a spin around the block and say gee, those brakes are great. To this type of rider of course speed isn’t much of a priority. For speed junkies and of course pro riders disc advocates never want to talk about, pretty much all I ride with are on rim brakes and of course we are cooler because of it.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> I don't take a lot of these people too seriously. Right now, 11 spd and MoPho are fighting over who has the bigger Johnson. I'm actually finding it mildly entertaining and amusing.


Johnson and ball size. I beat MoPho down my driveway everyday with rim brakes. Further I notice that MoPho even drags his feet. No guts, no glory.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> Where is her helmet??


I wasn't looking at her helmet. Dutch girls are hot...some anyway.


----------



## 11spd

SPlKE said:


> I ran out of popcorn two days ago.
> 
> Good thing this is The Once and For All, End All Be All, Disc Brakes vs. Rim Brakes Thread. I'm already into my Q1 FY2018 popcorn budget.
> 
> And I haven't even weighed in yet on the *astonishing bigliness of my Johnson*.


In bold, makes sense. A sensitive subject for many and another reason many choose disc brakes. Compensation.


----------



## woodys737

The public has been blitzkrieg'd to death about aero everything (on the heals of lightweight everything) yet here we are pushing frames wider to fit wider hubs. Not aero. Not lighter. At least not yet, but where is the outcry from the aero and WW's? I mean we've been subjected to white papers detailing the savings in grams of drag of everything so how about now guys? How does that wider/heavier hub/frame affect the grams of drag now? 

So yeah I feel the braking is superior for sure but, after the lightweight and aero marketing campaigns this seems like a convenience for the frame and wheel manufacturers and an industry marketing cramdown. In my business (aviation) our marketing magicians don't tell you you're getting *** ***** by reducing leg room to an unbearable amount; they try to soften the truth with bullshit terms like seat pitch. 

Once everything is disc this won't matter but, these transitions are nothing more than a hard sell for sure imo...I just hate the sell of it all.


----------



## 11spd

woodys737 said:


> The public has been blitzkrieg'd to death about aero everything (on the heals of lightweight everything) yet here we are pushing frames wider to fit wider hubs. Not aero. Not lighter. At least not yet, but where is the outcry from the aero and WW's? I mean we've been subjected to white papers detailing the savings in grams of drag of everything so how about now guys? How does that wider/heavier hub/frame affect the grams of drag now?
> 
> So yeah I feel the braking is superior for sure but, after the lightweight and aero marketing campaigns this seems like a convenience for the frame and wheel manufacturers and an industry marketing cramdown. In my business (aviation) our marketing magicians don't tell you you're getting *** ***** by reducing leg room to an unbearable amount; they try to soften the truth with bullshit terms like seat pitch.
> 
> Once everything is disc this won't matter but, these transitions are nothing more than a hard sell for sure imo...I just hate the sell of it all.


You basically have identified a common denominator perhaps unwittingly. Disc brakes in opposition to weight reduction and aerodynamics? Of course. So what is the common theme then? Change and increased cost to the consumer and therefore greater profit windfall for the manufacturer. Hydro disc brakes cost more and major manufacturers extol more money from consumers under the marketing ruse they are of benefit when pros for example reject that because they have tested both and decided they prefer rim brakes. Pros in fact ride rim brakes in opposition to big bike brands wanting to sell disc brake bikes because of higher profit margin. Pros vote by what they ride. If pros don’t win, they have more to worry about than if big bike brands get rich faster.

So if looking for a kernel of truth, it exists. Follow the money. Btw, electric shifting and carbon wheels fit the same paradigm. A fractional benefit with uber light deeper section carbon wheels though. Fractional. I don’t ride them and many of the fastest club riders I ride with don’t either. Truthfully even carbon seatposts and stems are limited value added. I no longer ride carbon seatposts for example because I find Zipp Al seatposts just as good for a fraction of the cost. Truthfully, with evolution of Al framesets, not unlike the design evolution of dual pivot rim brakes, an argument can be made that Al framesets now are vastly better aka cost/benefit for the money than carbon. Ride a CAAD12 and EVO back to back. Many will prefer the feel of the CAAD. All said a 200 gram difference for $1K price differential. As you say, marketing sells and why so much is spent on marketing by big brands which comes right off the bottom line until marketing ‘hype’ sells more product.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> You basically have identified a common denominator perhaps unwittingly. Disc brakes in opposition to weight reduction and aerodynamics? Of course. So what is the common theme then? Change and increased cost to the consumer and therefore greater profit windfall for the manufacturer. Hydro disc brakes cost more and major manufacturers extol more money from consumers under the marketing ruse they are of benefit when pros for example reject that because they have tested both and decided they prefer rim brakes. Pros in fact ride rim brakes in opposition to big bike brands wanting to sell disc brake bikes because of higher profit margin. Pros vote by what they ride. If pros don’t win, they have more to worry about than if big bike brands get rich faster.
> 
> So if looking for a kernel of truth, it exists. Follow the money. Btw, electric shifting and carbon wheels fit the same paradigm. A fractional benefit with uber light deeper section carbon wheels though. Fractional. I don’t ride them and many of the fastest club riders I ride with don’t either. Truthfully even carbon seatposts and stems are limited value added. I no longer ride carbon seatposts for example because I find Zipp Al seatposts just as good for a fraction of the cost. Truthfully, with evolution of Al framesets, not unlike the design evolution of dual pivot rim brakes, an argument can be made that Al framesets now are vastly better aka cost/benefit for the money than carbon. Ride a CAAD12 and EVO back to back. Many will prefer the feel of the CAAD. All said a 200 gram difference for $1K price differential. As you say, marketing sells and why so much is spent on marketing by big brands which comes right off the bottom line until marketing ‘hype’ sells more product.



Funny how you keep pointing to that big marketing exercise called pro racing as evidence for needing rim brakes and a light bike, yet you conveniently have decided that the carbon wheels and electronic shifting the pros love are not worthy. You can't have it both ways 

When I started riding, everyone was on 20+ lbs bikes, the only reason you can have a lightweight bike today is manufacturer came out with a carbon bike as a way to sell something new and more expensive so they can make a profit. The only reason you have clipless pedals or brake lever mounted shifters is because a manufacturer came out with something new to sell you. Where's your outrage? It's all one big conspiracy! Oh no! :shocked:



Personally, I had been waiting for disc brakes to come out on road bikes long before there was any push for them, didn't need a marketing campaign to tell me I needed them.




> Johnson and ball size. I beat MoPho down my driveway everyday with rim brakes. Further I notice that MoPho even drags his feet. No guts, no glory.


That's not my feet that was dragging, and my big balls are not aero 


.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Funny how you keep pointing to that big marketing exercise called pro racing as evidence for needing rim brakes and a light bike, yet you conveniently have decided that the carbon wheels and electronic shifting the pros love are not worthy. *You can't have it both ways *
> 
> When I started riding, everyone was on 20+ lbs bikes, the only reason you can have a lightweight bike today is manufacturer came out with a carbon bike as a way to sell something new and more expensive so they can make a profit. The only reason you have clipless pedals or brake lever mounted shifters is because a manufacturer came out with something new to sell you. Where's your outrage? It's all one big conspiracy! Oh no! :shocked:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I had been waiting for disc brakes to come out on road bikes long before there was any push for them, didn't need a marketing campaign to tell me I needed them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not my feet that was dragging, and my big balls are not aero
> 
> 
> .


Yes, I can because as you have noticed, I can artfully spin the narrative to suit my opinion in many directions. J
Some pros don’t ride electric shifting FWIW by their own dominion. Yes, carbon wheels are as prevalent as carbon frames in the peloton. But pros are paid to ride bicycles and yet they overwhelmingly choose rim brakes which cost less. You might know disc brakes are permitted in the peloton although hard to tell if you watch any pro race. Carbon wheels do have some benefit aerodynamically relative to weight…this ratio. But gains are minimal for the speeds amateurs versus pros ride in particular as pros spend more time at 30mph or more compared to average A group riders who want a nice race bike.
$2K carbon wheels relative to cost/benefit are a poor value in other words. But yes, I do concede price no object, carbon wheels have some benefit albeit small for the average rider and even a downside in crosswinds under certain conditions.
Electric shifting is complete waste of money but again, if the market wants to pay for it, let it happen.
I personally am a fan of e-bikes for example and look forward to their further evolution. I am no means against tech. 30 years from now I am convinced that electric road bikes will be common…an adjunct of 200 watts with 100 mile travel capacity on a single charge. Giant just came out with E-road bike and I look forward to faster, longer distance and lighter E-bikes and will likely own on in the next 10 years as I further age and want to keep up with CAT riders I have known for a long time in the area.
Tech is good. The world I come from, R&D. But like BB30, some tech has questionable ‘value added’. It always comes down to cost/benefit. A CAAD12 or Allez Sprint with aero cues with Ultegra and even throw in Zipp wheels but of course rim brakes, is probably the sweet spot for a good enthusiast rider that won’t break the bank. Fatter guys of course will want electric shifting, disk brakes and curb feelers. ;-)


----------



## MoPho

> Yes, I can because as you have noticed, I can artfully spin the narrative to suit my opinion in many directions. J
> Some pros don’t ride electric shifting FWIW by their own dominion. Yes, carbon wheels are as prevalent as carbon frames in the peloton. But pros are paid to ride bicycles and yet they overwhelmingly choose rim brakes which cost less. You might know disc brakes are permitted in the peloton although hard to tell if you watch any pro race. Carbon wheels do have some benefit aerodynamically relative to weight…this ratio. But gains are minimal for the speeds amateurs versus pros ride in particular as pros spend more time at 30mph or more compared to average A group riders who want a nice race bike.
> $2K carbon wheels relative to cost/benefit are a poor value in other words. But yes, I do concede price no object, carbon wheels have some benefit albeit small for the average rider and even a downside in crosswinds under certain conditions.
> Electric shifting is complete waste of money but again, if the market wants to pay for it, let it happen.
> I personally am a fan of e-bikes for example and look forward to their further evolution. I am no means against tech. 30 years from now I am convinced that electric road bikes will be common…an adjunct of 200 watts with 100 mile travel capacity on a single charge. Giant just came out with E-road bike and I look forward to faster, longer distance and lighter E-bikes and will likely own on in the next 10 years as I further age and want to keep up with CAT riders I have known for a long time in the area.
> Tech is good. The world I come from, R&D. But like BB30, some tech has questionable ‘value added’. It always comes down to cost/benefit. A CAAD12 or Allez Sprint with aero cues with Ultegra and even throw in Zipp wheels but of course rim brakes, is probably the sweet spot for a good enthusiast rider that won’t break the bank. Fatter guys of course will want electric shifting, disk brakes and curb feelers. ;-)



Bike companies are still selling rim brakes, so pros are still being paid to ride them, you can't trust those pesky pros.


You should get that e-bike now, chasing cats along the flatlands is hard work, even with a 13lb bike the struggle is real :thumbsup:



.


----------



## Migen21

11spd said:


> I can artfully spin the narrative to suit my opinion in many directions. J


You and I have very different opinions of the word "Artful".


----------



## Rashadabd

You guys are a mess. The debate continues and not just on RBR. 

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/specialized-pressuring-riders-use-disc-brakes-yes-no/

Oh btw, I am going to trust Boonen's opinion over 11spd's and Hansen's about 100% of the time.


----------



## Rashadabd

Oh and 11spd guess what Sagan was on at his own gran condo when I am sure he could have rode any Specialized bike he wanted?











So much for your only fat guys ride disc equipped bikes theory.  In fact, you might want to double check what many pros enjoy riding in the off season and on solo rides before committing to that one (just a hint from a guy that watches waaaaay too much pro cycling). The video also touches on the benefits of using disc brakes on road rides. And the truth will set you free. Carry on.


----------



## Rashadabd

Another point we can stop debating is that there isn't any evidence supporting the argument that "the majority of pros don't like discs." To the contrary, only 40% of pros completely rejected disc brakes. The rest were interested in/open to them. 40% wanted more safety measures in place first and 16% were ready to move forward as is. 

Peter Sagan: 'The entire peloton needs to use discs, not just one person' - Cycling Weekly


----------



## mfdemicco

Rashadabd said:


> Another point we can stop debating is that there isn't any evidence supporting the argument that "the majority of pros don't like discs." To the contrary, only 40% of pros completely rejected disc brakes. The rest were interested in/open to them. 40% wanted more safety measures in place first and 16% were ready to move forward as is.
> 
> Peter Sagan: 'The entire peloton needs to use discs, not just one person' - Cycling Weekly


That article you quoted said "The riders’ union, CPA, is pushing with renewed intensity for the UCI to prohibit disc brake use after Doull’s crash."


----------



## Fredrico

Rashadabd said:


> You guys are a mess. The debate continues and not just on RBR.
> 
> https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/specialized-pressuring-riders-use-disc-brakes-yes-no/
> 
> Oh btw, I am going to trust Boonen's opinion over 11spd's and Hansen's about 100% of the time.


_The problem now with carbon rims is *50 percent of your brake power is gone when it starts raining*, so it’s maybe a good thing that they will allow it, or should allow it._

Good enough reason to put disc brakes on those suckers! Sneaky marketers come out with carbon everything and now unsuspecting riders have to switch over to disc brakes, you know, "for safety." ut:

Also, look at what they have to do to the forks. Clunky! Not aerodynamic. :nono:

And that leads to the question: Is it better to transfer stopping power from rim to hub, or vice versa? Wheel builder sez he would like to use more spokes and build a stronger wheel to handle the forces of a hub brake. Is this true? 

Rim brakes have a huge "disc," the rim, to spread out the force as wide as possible around the wheel. Disc brakes concentrate the tension through the hub, then out to the tires via the spokes. He believed more spokes in a cross pattern are necessary to hold up under the torque induced from the hub. It would be the same as when a rider sprints, except the torque induced in the rear wheel is dampened by the gear cluster and freewheel before hitting the spokes. Rider doesn't want to crack his nice carbon fork braking hard before a switchback at 35 mph. Many of these uber light carbon wheels won't be up to the task.

Rim brakes also grab right below the headset, a much more stabile place than down at the end of the forks. That may be why riders can't tell much difference. The disc brakes grab quicker, but the fork flexes more. Rim brakes initiate the force right below the headset, so the forks don't flex nearly as much if at all. :idea:

Forget it. Opus's post above is right on.


----------



## Rashadabd

mfdemicco said:


> That article you quoted said "The riders’ union, CPA, is pushing with renewed intensity for the UCI to prohibit disc brake use after Doull’s crash."


That was the union's position at that moment when a bunch of people still believed that the injuries in question were caused by disc rotors. Some things have changed since then.


----------



## SwiftSolo

mfdemicco said:


> That article you quoted said "The riders’ union, CPA, is pushing with renewed intensity for the UCI to prohibit disc brake use after Doull’s crash."


Really, Doull's "left shoe". Sounds like both riding in the opposite direction of the peloton and/or side-saddle should be banned. 

Since brake discs are now required to have rounded edges, perhaps Doull would do well to take a class on how to tell the difference between chain rings and brake discs.


----------



## Rashadabd

Fredrico said:


> _The problem now with carbon rims is *50 percent of your brake power is gone when it starts raining*, so it’s maybe a good thing that they will allow it, or should allow it._
> 
> Good enough reason to put disc brakes on those suckers! Sneaky marketers come out with carbon everything and now unsuspecting riders have to switch over to disc brakes, you know, "for safety." ut:
> 
> Also, look at what they have to do to the forks. Clunky! Not aerodynamic. :nono:
> 
> And that leads to the question: Is it better to transfer stopping power from rim to hub, or vice versa? Wheel builder sez he would like to use more spokes and build a stronger wheel to handle the forces of a hub brake. Is this true?
> 
> Rim brakes have a huge "disc," the rim, to spread out the force as wide as possible around the wheel. Disc brakes concentrate the tension through the hub, then out to the tires via the spokes. He believed more spokes in a cross pattern are necessary to hold up under the torque induced from the hub. It would be the same as when a rider sprints, except the torque induced in the rear wheel is dampened by the gear cluster and freewheel before hitting the spokes. Rider doesn't want to crack his nice carbon fork braking hard before a switchback at 35 mph. Many of these uber light carbon wheels won't be up to the task.
> 
> Rim brakes also grab right below the headset, a much more stabile place than down at the end of the forks. That may be why riders can't tell much difference. The disc brakes grab quicker, but the fork flexes more. Rim brakes initiate the force right below the headset, so the forks don't flex nearly as much if at all. :idea:
> 
> Forget it. Opus's post above is right on.


Interesting except there really isn't any evidence to support the idea that this will happen regularly out on the road (or even in the lab). Let's be clear, there are lots of people out there riding disc brake bikes on carbon rims these days and when was the last time you heard of this being an issue?


----------



## Rashadabd

SwiftSolo said:


> Really, Doull's "left shoe". Sounds like both riding in the opposite direction of the peloton and/or side-saddle should be banned.
> 
> Since brake discs are now required to have rounded edges, perhaps Doull would do well to take a class on how to tell the difference between chain rings and brake discs.


My guess is most people will concede it wasn't a disc rotor that sliced that shoe at this point. It was most likely the foot of the rusty guard rail/barrier in my opinion, but whatever. 

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/owain-doull-marcel-kittel-disc-brake-crash-abu-dhabi/

Look, to address a point made in a previous post about carbon, the honest answer is, if we really want to design or discuss the safest raceable road bike that can be built out there, it probably has disc brakes on it. Yeah I said it. It probably has a titanium frame, alloy rims, and disc brakes with 28-32mm tires. I don't see how you get around it from a safety standpoint. It probably wouldn't be the fastest or the lightest, but if you built it with Ultegra/Force level components or higher and the wheels were as light as Zipp 30 Course or something like and the frame was a Litespeed T1SL or something similar, it could be respectable weight wise and be about as durable and safe as can be. I still think carbon is pretty safe for most riding though. Not perfect, but safe enough if you are staying upright and not flying through gravel regularly, etc.

T1sl Disc | Ti Road | Titanium | Litespeed Bicycles | Litespeed Bicycles


----------



## Maelochs

Rashadabd said:


> Interesting except there really isn't any evidence to support the idea that this will happen regularly out on the road (or even in the lab). Let's be clear, there are lots of people out there riding disc brake bikes on carbon rims these days and when was the last time you heard of this being an issue?


First off .... there is no braking loss in the wet with Disc brakes and CF rims.

There is, it seems, significant braking loss with CF rims and Rim brakes.

When I was speccing a couple bikes I intend to build I asked a lot of people about CF vs alloy rims and disc vs rim brakes. I asked people who actually rode the different systems in different conditions, not people who seemed to champion one system over the other for ideological reasons.

Most people recommended Black Prince pads but even so many said braking in the rain was compromised. I don't have an exact figure, but people were pretty clear.

As far as I can tell, discs will continue to improve and in time there won't be any real trade-offs ... discs will win eventually. We aren't there yet.

Right now I think it is reasonable to consider both rim and disc brakes for a road bike, and to choose depending on the expected use.


----------



## Rashadabd

Maelochs said:


> First off .... there is no braking loss in the wet with Disc brakes and CF rims.
> 
> There is, it seems, significant braking loss with CF rims and Rim brakes.
> 
> When I was speccing a couple bikes I intend to build I asked a lot of people about CF vs alloy rims and disc vs rim brakes. I asked people who actually rode the different systems in different conditions, not people who seemed to champion one system over the other for ideological reasons.
> 
> Most people recommended Black Prince pads but even so many said braking in the rain was compromised. I don't have an exact figure, but people were pretty clear.
> 
> As far as I can tell, discs will continue to improve and in time there won't be any real trade-offs ... discs will win eventually. We aren't there yet.
> 
> Right now I think it is reasonable to consider both rim and disc brakes for a road bike, and to choose depending on the expected use.


Fair enough, I think I misunderstood the point you were making the first time. I completely agree with what you said now though.


----------



## Fredrico

Rashadabd said:


> Interesting except there really isn't any evidence to support the idea that this will happen regularly out on the road (or even in the lab). Let's be clear, there are lots of people out there riding disc brake bikes on carbon rims these days and when was the last time you heard of this being an issue?


Carbon rims require disc brakes, according to the wheel builder linked above. He said the braking surface on carbon rims loses traction when wet; disc brakes solve that problem. Is this true? I dunno. I've stuck with aluminum rims. They work great!

It's a brand new issue on road bike forks, where most of the braking force is applied. It requires a fork strong enough to handle the torque originating from the hub. Mountain bikes forks are massive shock absorbers. They'll flex vertically and transfer what's left to the head tube. The forks on disc road bikes are probably heaved up, as well as the wheels, to handle the added stress. 

Also, standard mounting for disc hubs use through axles. Another "requirement" for disc brakes. Can't have that wheel twisting out of the dropouts when braking hard. Never a problem with rim brakes. The braking forces are originating off the rim.

Just some random thoughts on the trade offs, that's all.


----------



## 11spd

Rash, I hope you weren't serious. Specialized handed out disc equipped new Roubaixs including for Sagan to 'test' rider reaction. Wider tires and Future Shock. So it was designed for fat guys....however in this case was pros and good riders on the bike. Will keep eyes peeled for the Paris Roubaix in '18 to see if either the Future Shock or Disc will be in the race since the Roubaix is raced in Classics.



Rashadabd said:


> Oh and 11spd guess what Sagan was on at his own gran condo when I am sure he could have rode any Specialized bike he wanted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So much for your only fat guys ride disc equipped bikes theory.  In fact, you might want to double check what many pros enjoy riding in the off season and on solo rides before committing to that one (just a hint from a guy that watches waaaaay too much pro cycling). The video also touches on the benefits of using disc brakes on road rides. And the truth will set you free. Carry on.


----------



## 11spd

Rash,
I hope you realize that Boonen is on the aero Venge with discs because Spesh screwed the pooch with their rim brake version of the VIAS twice. Many don't know that the VIAS was originally designed for disc brakes prior to the UCI ban and then they scampered to release the rim brake version which wouldn't stop.

Other notable dynamic is...what happened to Boonen since riding the VIAS disc. He lost all his hair and like Samson, the reason he lost his strength and no longer wins as before. Disc brakes once again are to blame. 



Rashadabd said:


> You guys are a mess. The debate continues and not just on RBR.
> 
> https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/specialized-pressuring-riders-use-disc-brakes-yes-no/
> 
> Oh btw, I am going to trust Boonen's opinion over 11spd's and Hansen's about 100% of the time.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Bike companies are still selling rim brakes, so pros are still being paid to ride them, you can't trust those pesky pros.
> 
> 
> You should get that e-bike now, chasing cats along the flatlands is hard work, even with a 13lb bike the struggle is real :thumbsup:


Point lost in your post though is, big brands that sponsor pros want pros on discs so they can make greater profit. Pros choose lower cost rim brakes 'in spite of' their paid for sponsors promoting disc bikes in bike shops to the pubic. In fact it could be argued that pros with less clout in the peloton....this miniscule subset that are on disc brakes, they would be on rim brakes too, but their sponsors insist they ride their disc model bikes they are trying to sell.

Truthfully the greatest endorsement for rim brakes is pros ride rim brakes 'in spite of' their bike sponsors wishing they were on disc brakes for marketing aka 'race on Sunday, buy on Monday'. Name brand pros however want to win and they vote by what they ride which isn't always the bike sold to the public....latter to extol more dollars from Joe average.


----------



## 11spd

What sets my writing above is I intersperse undeniable fact about the superiority of rim brakes with comedy including metaphorical references underscoring the truth and exposing average Joe succumbing to marketing hype which makes all my posts compelling and must read cycling journalism. For example, many didn't know that Boonen lost his hair and ability to dominate sprints because of disc brakes.



Migen21 said:


> You and I have very different opinions of the word "Artful".


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Rash,
> I hope you realize that Boonen is on the aero Venge with discs because Spesh screwed the pooch with their rim brake version of the VIAS twice. Many don't know that the VIAS was originally designed for disc brakes prior to the UCI ban and then they scampered to release the rim brake version which wouldn't stop.
> 
> Other notable dynamic is...what happened to Boonen since riding the VIAS disc. He lost all his hair and like Samson, the reason he lost his strength and no longer wins as before. Disc brakes once again are to blame.


Dude, you are clearly just making stuff up. It's kind of funny but kind of not. I don't mind, but some of us actually watch pro races. Discs had nothing to do with Boonen's losses. Age, timing, and a guy named Greg Van Avermaet are the real things to blame. Anyway, carry on.


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Rash, I hope you weren't serious. Specialized handed out disc equipped new Roubaixs including for Sagan to 'test' rider reaction. Wider tires and Future Shock. So it was designed for fat guys....however in this case was pros and good riders on the bike. Will keep eyes peeled for the Paris Roubaix in '18 to see if either the Future Shock or Disc will be in the race since the Roubaix is raced in Classics.


Again, there is a bunch of speculation disguised as fact in the first part of this post (and a number of others). I know what the Roubaix was designed for, most of us do. We will likely see multiple teams on disc brakes at Roubaix is my guess if the neutral service and spare wheel aspect are worked out. Aqua Blue will be on them all year as indicated above, we'll see if they get an invite to the race. Strade Bianche will be the first real opportunity/test though. It has similar conditions and is earlier on the calendar. It's coming, it's just a matter of how soon and in phases or all at once. 

I think I have officially had enough of the old disc brake vs rim brake thread. Come chat me up in the pro cycling, racing, and endurance racing threads though if you folks ever venture there.


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Rash,
> I hope you realize that Boonen is on the aero Venge with discs because Spesh screwed the pooch with their rim brake version of the VIAS twice. Many don't know that the VIAS was originally designed for disc brakes prior to the UCI ban and then they scampered to release the rim brake version which wouldn't stop.
> 
> Other notable dynamic is...what happened to Boonen since riding the VIAS disc. He lost all his hair and like Samson, the reason he lost his strength and no longer wins as before. Disc brakes once again are to blame.


Oh and I have no idea what the reference to the Venge had to do with anything we were talking about. Boonen has explained how he feels about riding disc brakes himself and I believe him more than I believe your theories. End of story. FYI, Boonen actually rode a rim brake equipped Roubaix with futureshock his last Paris Roubiax. 

https://cycling.today/pro-bike-tom-boonens-specialized-ltd-roubaix-with-future-shock/

Moreover Specialized doesn't tell Tom Boonen what equipment to ride, they ask him nicely, lol.






Enjoy the thread guys.


----------



## Lombard

SPlKE said:


> I ran out of popcorn two days ago.
> 
> Good thing this is The Once and For All, End All Be All, Disc Brakes vs. Rim Brakes Thread. I'm already into my Q1 FY2018 popcorn budget.


I'm collecting for more popcorn for Spike. Will you all kindly open your hearts and donate to this very worthy cause. Thank you and God bless you!


----------



## Lombard

11spd said:


> *Ride a CAAD12 and EVO back to back*. Many will prefer the feel of the CAAD. All said a 200 gram difference for $1K price differential. As you say, marketing sells and why so much is spent on marketing by big brands which comes right off the bottom line until marketing ‘hype’ sells more product.


You hit the nail on the head. Not that I am saying either one is better than the other. It's all a matter of personal preference. This is why I have always advocated taking test rides. In the end, you have to go with your gut feeling. One caveat: Make sure the shop puts the same pressure in the tires on both bikes!


----------



## 11spd

Rash,
Dude, there is so much evidence that Boonen prefers rim brakes. Speaking of Roubaix with future shock you try to use as an example, the complete opposite is true. Boonen went completely off the grid and requested a custom Roubaix with ‘rim brakes. Specialized doesn’t even make such a bike for the public. All future shock Roubaixs sold to the public are disc brake. If that isn’t an emphatic endorsement of rim brakes….Specialized doesn’t even make a rim brake future shock ‘anything’…Roubaix or Diverge…but they made a custom rim brake future shock for Boonen because that is what he wanted.
Link to rim brake Future shock Roubaix requested by Boonen:

https://cycling.today/pro-bike-tom-boonens-specialized-ltd-roubaix-with-future-shock/





Rashadabd said:


> Oh and I have no idea what the reference to the Venge had to do with anything we were talking about. Boonen has explained how he feels about riding disc brakes himself and I believe him more than I believe your theories. End of story. FYI, Boonen actually rode a rim brake equipped Roubaix with futureshock his last Paris Roubiax.
> 
> https://cycling.today/pro-bike-tom-boonens-specialized-ltd-roubaix-with-future-shock/
> 
> Moreover Specialized doesn't tell Tom Boonen what equipment to ride, they ask him nicely, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy the thread guys.


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Rash,
> Dude, there is so much evidence that Boonen prefers rim brakes. Speaking of Roubaix with future shock you try to use as an example, the complete opposite is true. Boonen went completely off the grid and requested a custom Roubaix with ‘rim brakes. Specialized doesn’t even make such a bike for the public. All future shock Roubaixs sold to the public are disc brake. If that isn’t an emphatic endorsement of rim brakes….Specialized doesn’t even make a rim brake future shock ‘anything’…Roubaix or Diverge…but they made a custom rim brake future shock for Boonen because that is what he wanted.
> Link to rim brake Future shock Roubaix requested by Boonen:
> 
> https://cycling.today/pro-bike-tom-boonens-specialized-ltd-roubaix-with-future-shock/


11spd,

You are making like 50% or more of that crap up. Why I don't know. Did you read the article? Him having a preference for discs had nothing to do with it at all. I followed this in real time. He wanted to try the new Roubaix with futureshock, but the debate over discs was raging at the time and there definitely wasn't adequate neutral support for a disc equipped bike at the time and that can mean everything in a race like Roubaix or Flanders, so Specialized made him a rim brake version. He was retiring after Roubaix so this was his last shot. He likes discs, thinks they make more sense especially for the classics and has said so more than once. There is nothing to debate here. Your opinion about discs is a legitimate position to have. There is no reason to make up stuff about what other people like or dislike. The end.


----------



## mtrac

My observation, riding in an area into which much of the NYC roadie population funnels, is that disc brakes aren't setting the world on fire. I'm in LBS a few times a year and they're scarce. Claimed advantages are probably a tough sell when your friends don't have them and still ride your ass off.

One of my bikes has hydros and that's enough.


----------



## MoPho

mtrac said:


> My observation, riding in an area into which much of the NYC roadie population funnels, is that disc brakes aren't setting the world on fire. I'm in LBS a few times a year and they're scarce. Claimed advantages are probably a tough sell when your friends don't have them and still ride your ass off.
> 
> One of my bikes has hydros and that's enough.



NYC is pretty flat. Disc brakes are becoming more popular where I live in NorCal as we have a lot of mountains to climb/descend and a rainy season. 
Looking around at what people around you are riding doesn't tell you much. Disc brakes are relatively new to road bikes, and most serious roadies already have a bike(s), and not many are going to get rid of their bikes and buy a new one just to get disc brakes. It will take a while to become more ubiquitous


.



.


----------



## mtrac

MoPho said:


> NYC is pretty flat.


Once you cross the river to NJ it most definitely is not flat. Same when you ride north past the NY border.






​
Disc brakes have been out a while, now. There's enough money in this area that riders aren't going to deny themselves the latest toy if it works better.


----------



## den bakker

mtrac said:


> Once you cross the river to NJ it most definitely is not flat. Same when you ride north past the NY border.
> 
> View attachment 320907​
> Disc brakes have been out a while, now. There's enough money in this area that riders aren't going to deny themselves the latest toy if it works better.


and until there has been a decision on their use (final decision) by the UCI many won't buy them. That's not just racers but also grand fondo participants etc where they will often have similar requirements/restrictions.


----------



## MoPho

mtrac said:


> Once you cross the river to NJ it most definitely is not flat. Same when you ride north past the NY border.
> 
> 
> 
> Disc brakes have been out a while, now. There's enough money in this area that riders aren't going to deny themselves the latest toy if it works better.


I'm originally from New York and southern New England, the descents are not anything like what we have in CA. 
Disc brakes on race/sport geometry road bikes have only been out for a little over a year, I know because I was waiting for it to happen. 
And there is a lot of money where I live too
But if you insist on using the riders in your area as proof of a lack of interest in disc brakes, my area cancels it out :wink:

.


----------



## mtrac

MoPho said:


> But if you insist on using the riders in your area as proof of a lack of interest in disc brakes, my area cancels it out :wink:


Based on number of riders, not likely.


----------



## MoPho

mtrac said:


> Based on number of riders, not likely.



Yeah, ok 



.


----------



## 11spd

To put your perception of a false narrative into focus Rash, making up stuff is exactly what big bike brands do to sell more expensive bikes at greater profit...why they exist. Create a market niche and purport it to be better. One poster in this thread said it perfectly. Why would big brands after all the strife and success achieved on weight reduction and aerodynamics would they then implement a change that is oppositional to both, when weight and aerodynamics are proven to make cyclists faster. Why indeed. Disc brakes fall into the same camp as BB30.  A problem in search of a solution. The parallel with electric shifting is lighter effort applies to electric shifting and hydro disk brake bikes. Functionally there is almost no difference. Some like me, prefer the feel of both mechanical shifting and rim brakes. So you believe the marketing and really feel there is a difference and pros who ride much harder and faster than you including descending at 60mph in the rain are on rim brake bikes almost unanimously and they don’t agree with you. That is fact and not fiction. I ride less aggressively than all pros and I don’t need disc brakes either. 
At the end of the day, we will all choose. But as two posters stated in this thread that both currenty own disc brakes…perhaps there are even more ..one owning two disc brake road bikes, their new bikes will be rim brake. I am sure they are fine with the braking of a disc brake bike. They find them unnecessary considering the downside…the overall ownership experience including maintenance. Most aren’t plussed by a bit more effort at the lever which with modern Shimano dual pivot is vastly better than years past. Like Simon said in the comparison video. He overtly stated he couldn’t say he preferred the ‘feel’ of disc brakes to caliper brakes so many rave about. Perception is reality.

PS: a wise man wrote about discs, a bicycle already has two discs which act as wheels and for braking. Why add two more? Why? Because they can charge you for them. Belt and suspenders.



Rashadabd said:


> 11spd,
> You are making like 50% or more of that crap up. Why I don't know. Did you read the article? Him having a preference for discs had nothing to do with it at all. I followed this in real time. He wanted to try the new Roubaix with futureshock, but the debate over discs was raging at the time and there definitely wasn't adequate neutral support for a disc equipped bike at the time and that can mean everything in a race like Roubaix or Flanders, so Specialized made him a rim brake version. He was retiring after Roubaix so this was his last shot. He likes discs, thinks they make more sense especially for the classics and has said so more than once. There is nothing to debate here. Your opinion about discs is a legitimate position to have. There is no reason to make up stuff about what other people like or dislike. The end.


----------



## factory feel

11spd said:


> To put your perception of a false narrative into focus Rash, making up stuff is exactly what big bike brands do to sell more expensive bikes at greater profit...why they exist. Create a market niche and purport it to be better. One poster in this thread said it perfectly. Why would big brands after all the strife and success achieved on weight reduction and aerodynamics would they then implement a change that is oppositional to both, when weight and aerodynamics are proven to make cyclists faster. Why indeed. Disc brakes fall into the same camp as BB30.  A problem in search of a solution. The parallel with electric shifting is lighter effort applies to electric shifting and hydro disk brake bikes. Functionally there is almost no difference. Some like me, prefer the feel of both mechanical shifting and rim brakes. So you believe the marketing and really feel there is a difference and pros who ride much harder and faster than you including descending at 60mph in the rain are on rim brake bikes almost unanimously and they don’t agree with you. That is fact and not fiction. I ride less aggressively than all pros and I don’t need disc brakes either.
> At the end of the day, we will all choose. But as two posters stated in this thread that both currenty own disc brakes…perhaps there are even more ..one owning two disc brake road bikes, their new bikes will be rim brake. I am sure they are fine with the braking of a disc brake bike. They find them unnecessary considering the downside…the overall ownership experience including maintenance. Most aren’t plussed by a bit more effort at the lever which with modern Shimano dual pivot is vastly better than years past. Like Simon said in the comparison video. He overtly stated he couldn’t say he preferred the ‘feel’ of disc brakes to caliper brakes so many rave about. Perception is reality.
> 
> PS: a wise man wrote about discs, a bicycle already has two discs which act as wheels and for braking. Why add two more? Why? Because they can charge you for them. Belt and suspenders.


man that's a hard read.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> To put your perception of a false narrative into focus Rash, making up stuff is exactly what big bike brands do to sell more expensive bikes at greater profit...why they exist. Create a market niche and purport it to be better. One poster in this thread said it perfectly. Why would big brands after all the strife and success achieved on weight reduction and aerodynamics would they then implement a change that is oppositional to both, when weight and aerodynamics are proven to make cyclists faster. Why indeed. Disc brakes fall into the same camp as BB30.  A problem in search of a solution. The parallel with electric shifting is lighter effort applies to electric shifting and hydro disk brake bikes. Functionally there is almost no difference. Some like me, prefer the feel of both mechanical shifting and rim brakes. So you believe the marketing and really feel there is a difference and pros who ride much harder and faster than you including descending at 60mph in the rain are on rim brake bikes almost unanimously and they don’t agree with you. That is fact and not fiction. I ride less aggressively than all pros and I don’t need disc brakes either.
> At the end of the day, we will all choose. But as two posters stated in this thread that both currenty own disc brakes…perhaps there are even more ..one owning two disc brake road bikes, their new bikes will be rim brake. I am sure they are fine with the braking of a disc brake bike. They find them unnecessary considering the downside…the overall ownership experience including maintenance. Most aren’t plussed by a bit more effort at the lever which with modern Shimano dual pivot is vastly better than years past. Like Simon said in the comparison video. He overtly stated he couldn’t say he preferred the ‘feel’ of disc brakes to caliper brakes so many rave about. Perception is reality.
> 
> PS: a wise man wrote about discs, a bicycle already has two discs which act as wheels and for braking. Why add two more? Why? Because they can charge you for them. Belt and suspenders.


Gotta love the ramblings of Luddite conspiracists. 

Every iteration of new Fords since the Model A has been a corporate marketing fraud. Rational people know that no automobile has ever actually been an improvement over the Model A.

Thanks for the enlightenment.


----------



## Fajita Dave

11spd said:


> Like Simon said in the comparison video. He overtly stated he couldn’t say he preferred the ‘feel’ of disc brakes to caliper brakes so many rave about. Perception is reality.


Would just like to point out that Simon undoubtably said he preferred the feel of the disc brakes and had more confidence in them whether wet or dry.

Don't have a disc road bike myself but I do prefer the hydro disc braking on my mountain bike far more than I like the rim brakes on my road bike.

Any gain or loss seems to be so minimal its not worth arguing over. 1lbs heavier makes practically no difference what so ever even to a pro (*cough* Peter Sagan has said he doesn't care how much he weighs). There is no real aero difference straight into the wind. Even with a cross wind complaining about aero drag is ridiculous unless every other component on your bike and the rider is optimized for the lowest drag possible. So unless you're wearing a skin suit, trained in a wind tunnel to stay in an aerodynamic position, riding an aero bike with deep rims and tires to perfectly match such rims its difficult to complain about the insignificant difference discs make.

More than likely you could reduce more drag with a rim optimized for aero with no brake track and the right tires than you lost by putting on discs. The rims and tires are drastically larger components which being the furthest away from the axle are also moving faster than the disc near the center. I haven't looked into it but has anyone actually made a rim optimized for aero with no brake track yet?


----------



## Devastazione

At some point during construction they realized the building was sinking. The weight of the building itself had caused an underground river to crush. The problem was that it was the core of the building sinking,therefore putting a huge amount of pressure on the three wings. At that point Mandalay Resort group was forced to take action. A company specialized in these kind of jobs placed a bunch of pillars underground and so the building was stabilized . Costs rose between 8 to 10 millions on top of the 950 already budgeted.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> Gotta love the ramblings of Luddite conspiracists.
> 
> Every iteration of new Fords since the Model A has been a corporate marketing fraud. Rational people know that no automobile has ever actually been an improvement over the Model A.
> 
> Thanks for the enlightenment.


Even more scary are binary thinkers that can't differentiate value.
BMW 3 series versus BMW 7 series. I have owned both. 3 series at 1/2 the price will beat a 7 series at the track all day long. My background is product development and have taught mechanical engineering.


----------



## 11spd

Fajita Dave said:


> Would just like to point out that Simon undoubtably said he preferred the feel of the disc brakes and had more confidence in them whether wet or dry.
> 
> Don't have a disc road bike myself but I do prefer the hydro disc braking on my mountain bike far more than I like the rim brakes on my road bike.
> 
> Any gain or loss seems to be so minimal its not worth arguing over. 1lbs heavier makes practically no difference what so ever even to a pro (*cough* Peter Sagan has said he doesn't care how much he weighs). There is no real aero difference straight into the wind. Even with a cross wind complaining about aero drag is ridiculous unless every other component on your bike and the rider is optimized for the lowest drag possible. So unless you're wearing a skin suit, trained in a wind tunnel to stay in an aerodynamic position, riding an aero bike with deep rims and tires to perfectly match such rims its difficult to complain about the insignificant difference discs make.
> 
> More than likely you could reduce more drag with a rim optimized for aero with no brake track and the right tires than you lost by putting on discs. The rims and tires are drastically larger components which being the furthest away from the axle are also moving faster than the disc near the center. I haven't looked into it but has anyone actually made a rim optimized for aero with no brake track yet?


Simon also said in the video in the dry which is 98% of when amateurs ride in particular, there is 'nothing between disc and rim brakes in braking performance'. Another valid point is few amateurs ride a descent daily used in the video for comparison to determine any meaningful differential in performance. 

Because of miniscule weight and aerodynamic difference in favor of rim brakes, the point is..why buy a bike with disc brakes? 

So I can be summarized then that disc brakes are for riders who live in the Alps exclusively and are ex-ski racers who only ride in the rain...lol.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Simon also said in the video in the dry which is 98% of when amateurs ride in particular, there is 'nothing between disc and rim brakes in braking performance'. Another valid point is few amateurs ride a descent daily use as shown in the video for comparison for any meaningful differential in performance.
> 
> Because of miniscule weight and aerodynamic difference in favor of rim brakes, the point is..why buy a bike with disc brakes?
> 
> So I can be summarized then that disc brakes are for riders who live in the Alps exclusively and are ex-ski racers who only ride in the rain...lol.


Geography may not be the strength of many here on RBR. 

With populations concentrated on the coasts in the US, many of us engage in climbing and descending long, steep, twisting ascents/descents on a regular basis (on the West Coast and through the Rockies. it's a required element of bike rides worth talking about). 

Rain is not the only problem that makes rim brakes questionable. Snow melt is more disabling since it is often mixed with the grit of winter road sanding. On sunny spring and early summer rides in the mountains, rim brakes offer surprises that take several revolutions before effective braking occurs. In the meantime, your disc brake riding partners leave you further behind at every hairpin.

In the end, those who ride the flatlands on sunny days don't need disc brakes (unless they vacation in areas that offer quality descending rides). Even then, rim brake riders learn to compensate for their poor braking performance and will never experience their inferiority/time consumption until challenged by friends with disc brakes.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> Geography may not be the strength of many here on RBR.
> 
> With populations concentrated on the coasts in the US, many of us engage in climbing and descending long, steep, twisting ascents/descents on a regular basis (on the West Coast. it's a required element of bike rides worth talking about).
> 
> Rain is not the only problem that makes rim brakes useless. Snow melt is more disabling since it is often mixed with the grit of winter road sanding. On sunny spring and early summer rides in the mountains, rim brakes offer surprises that take several revolutions before any effective braking occurs. In the meantime, your disc brake riding partners leave you further behind at every hairpin.


Fair enough if living in the mountains, a compelling argument for disc brakes. Only drawback and you live in the mountains and know this, basically the bike is dragged up the mountain and therefore weight matters...so if riding discs in the mountains, best to build a light bike.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> Even more scary are binary thinkers that can't differentiate value.
> BMW 3 series versus BMW 7 series. I have owned both.  3 series at 1/2 the price will beat a 7 series at the track all day long. My background is product development and have taught mechanical engineering.



For someone with your "background" you sure make stupid and incorrect car analogies 

.
.


----------



## Lombard

SwiftSolo said:


> Gotta love the ramblings of Luddite conspiracists.
> 
> Every iteration of new Fords since the Model A has been a corporate marketing fraud. Rational people know that no automobile has ever actually been an improvement over the Model A.
> 
> Thanks for the enlightenment.


The Model A was a corporate marking fraud too. We were just fine with these:


----------



## Lombard

11spd said:


> Only drawback and you live in the mountains and know this, basically the bike is dragged up the mountain and therefore weight matters...so if riding discs in the mountains, best to build a light bike.


Or just train harder and get in better shape so it doesn't matter. It appears you sure do have a lot of time on your hands writing all these lengthy posts that could be better spent riding your super awesome rim brake bike.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> *Or just train harder and get in better shape so it doesn't matter.* It appears you sure do have a lot of time on your hands writing all these lengthy posts that could be better spent riding your super awesome rim brake bike.


Sorry but a ridiculous assertion. Have you ever raced?. Any racer or more average rider trying not to get dropped in his group ride at 'any level' always want the fastest bike for the job. 

Your argument is predicated that any rider can get faster. No. Some riders have peaked. A now elderly Eddy Merckx will never get faster than he was in his prime by improved training at this point in his life.


----------



## Fajita Dave

11spd said:


> Sorry but a ridiculous assertion. Have you ever raced?. Any racer or more average rider trying not to get dropped in his group ride at 'any level' always want the fastest bike for the job.
> 
> Your argument is predicated that any rider can get faster. No. Some riders have peaked. A now elderly Eddy Merckx will never get faster than he was in his prime by improved training at this point in his life.


Hydro disc brakes and electronic shifting would be a lot easier on those old arthritic fingers. 

I agree about wanting a faster bike though. No one wants a slower bike for road cycling unless comfort takes a higher priority. None the less disc brakes aren't going to be slowing anyone down. There are much larger factors with the bike that could net you performance gains.


----------



## JSR

Yesterday I did a particularly sweet 3.8 mi. descent on a damp road in the Oregon Coastal Range. On my wheel was a much decorated champion riding a funky old Trek 5200. I’m a nobody on a new Domane.

My brakes squealed a few times. He got hinky in a couple switchbacks. We both had Cheshire Cat grins at the stop sign.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Fair enough if living in the mountains, a compelling argument for disc brakes. Only drawback and you live in the mountains and know this, basically the bike is dragged up the mountain and therefore weight matters...so if riding discs in the mountains, best to build a light bike.


Very easy to build or buy a bike with hydraulic discs that is at UCI minimums. I have one.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Even more scary are binary thinkers that can't differentiate value.
> BMW 3 series versus BMW 7 series. I have owned both. 3 series at 1/2 the price will beat a 7 series at the track all day long. My background is product development and have taught mechanical engineering.


It strikes me that you should have gained at least the elementary understanding of physics that would allow you to understand the principles of why discs are better than rims as braking surfaces.

Have you considered asking for a refund of your tuition?


----------



## factory feel

SwiftSolo said:


> It strikes me that you should have gained at least the elementary understanding of physics that would allow you to understand the principles of why discs are better than rims as braking surfaces.
> 
> Have you considered asking for a refund of your tuition?


you can lead a horse to water........


----------



## Lombard

11spd said:


> Sorry but a ridiculous assertion. Have you ever raced?. Any racer or more average rider trying not to get dropped in his group ride at 'any level' always want the fastest bike for the job.
> 
> Your argument is predicated that any rider can get faster. No. Some riders have peaked. A now elderly Eddy Merckx will never get faster than he was in his prime by improved training at this point in his life.


Nope, never raced. Have no interest in racing or Eddie Merckx.

As far as group riding, if you are getting dropped by your group, you either need to train harder to get stronger or move down a level, plain and simple. My point is that eliminating disc brakes will not prevent you from getting dropped on your club ride. You can't buy speed. 

C'mon 11spd! If your Johnson were really that big, you would be racing these guys on a knobby tired full-suspension mountain bike! :lol:


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> Very easy to build or buy a bike with hydraulic discs that is at UCI minimums. I have one.


Sure is. But Joe average doesn't have the encumbrance of UCI 15 lb minimum.
13 lb rim brake bikes are pretty achievable.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Sure is. But Joe average doesn't have the encumbrance of UCI 15 lb minimum.
> 13 lb rim brake bikes are pretty achievable.


For a guy who alleges to have racing experience, you seem pretty oblivious to what has happened in mountain biking. Further, consider that gravity doesn't disappear at the summit. It's also present for the descent and has little impact on the flats. 

Additionally, assuming that the wind tunnel testing used as an example was completed with meaningful protocol (very doubtful), what impact do you believe the associated increase in drag would have on the probabilities of getting dropped on a group ride (keep in mind that those in danger of being dropped are seldom among the riders pulling)


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> For a guy who alleges to have racing experience, you seem pretty oblivious to what has happened in mountain biking. Further, consider that gravity doesn't disappear at the summit. It's also present for the descent and has little impact on the flats.
> 
> Additionally, assuming that the wind tunnel testing used as an example was completed with meaningful protocol (very doubtful), what impact do you believe the associated increase in drag would have on the probabilities of getting dropped on a group ride (keep in mind that those in danger of being dropped are seldom among the riders pulling)


Just silly to choose hardware that is antithetical to speed. Many here and perhaps the most vocal don't care about speed. If spending a lot for a bike, why not choose the lightest and more aero if other objectives are met like geometry and ride quality?
All the CAT 1's I ride with are on rim brakes. Like me, they have ridden them for years. Somehow each day we make it through our group ride together without crashing. Everybody stops just fine. As I stated earlier, hydraulic disk brakes on a road bike are like 4 piston caliper Brembos on a Toyota Corolla. Simply unnecessary.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> As I stated earlier, hydraulic disk brakes on a road bike are like 4 piston caliper Brembos on a Toyota Corolla. Simply unnecessary.


Well gee, by that analogy, building a light bike would be like putting lightweight parts on a Toyota Corolla. Simply Unnecessary



.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Just silly to choose hardware that is antithetical to speed. Many here and perhaps the most vocal don't care about speed. If spending a lot for a bike, why not choose the lightest and more aero if other objectives are met like geometry and ride quality?
> All the CAT 1's I ride with are on rim brakes. Like me, they have ridden them for years. Somehow each day we make it through our group ride together without crashing. Everybody stops just fine. As I stated earlier, hydraulic disk brakes on a road bike are like 4 piston caliper Brembos on a Toyota Corolla. Simply unnecessary.


$200 Huffy riders can make it through flat lander group rides without crashing. Survival instinct dictates that people with inferior equipment adjust their riding and rides to suit their equipment. 

Road bikers used 6 speed cassettes with friction shifters on heavy steel bikes for years. They'd still be using those antiquated relics if mountain bikers hadn't come along with their heads out of their a.. box. Many of the innovative standards used and perfected on MTBs were first attempted by infidel road bikers but discarded by the masses because of the Luddite propensities they cling to even today (belief in the "vast corporate conspiracy" is their first commandment).

I do appreciate your enthusiasm for antiques. It is that passion that allows us non-believers to dump our obsolete crap on followers. Keep the Faith.......please.


----------



## vic bastige

11spd said:


> Just silly to choose hardware that is antithetical to speed. Many here and perhaps the most vocal don't care about speed. If spending a lot for a bike, why not choose the lightest and more aero if other objectives are met like geometry and ride quality?
> All the CAT 1's I ride with are on rim brakes. Like me, they have ridden them for years. Somehow each day we make it through our group ride together without crashing. Everybody stops just fine. As I stated earlier, hydraulic disk brakes on a road bike are like 4 piston caliper Brembos on a Toyota Corolla. Simply unnecessary.


7 pages and you still have convinced nobody that is of a differing opinion to you. See, there is what is necessary and what is wanted. If we were to ride only what was necessary, we'd all probably be on steel frames with stem shifters. As with most sports and hobbies, it's more about want vs. need. 

...but hey, if another 7 pages of banter makes you happy, who knows? You may be the first to convince an aopposing point of view on discs.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Well gee, by that analogy, building a light bike would be like putting lightweight parts on a Toyota Corolla. Simply Unnecessary.


 Underscores why weight matters. A horsepower limited Corolla is more penalized by 4 piston Brembos than a ZL1 Camaro. Same with putting big wheels and tires on a Corolla. At some point lap times at the track will slow down with heavier wheels and tires.

Point is, road bikes are seriously hampered by power…us. Lighter is much better.
Most of the guys arguing here want their false sense of security they get with disc brakes. They feel safer on them. My view is better riders are looking more at the other side of the equation. Better riders want more speed and anything in opposition to speed like weight and aero drag, they look to minimize. That is why disc brakes are off the table for many that care about being as fast as they can. Anybody who has been riding for the last decade if they have updated their bike equipment has appreciated just how good the new dual pivot caliper rim brakes are. They are night and day better than rim brakes of a decade ago which also stopped riders reasonably well. Many of us marvel at just how good modern rim brakes are.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> Nope, never raced. Have no interest in racing or Eddie Merckx.
> 
> As far as group riding, if you are getting dropped by your group, you either need to train harder to get stronger or move down a level, plain and simple. My point is that eliminating disc brakes will not prevent you from getting dropped on your club ride. You can't buy speed.
> 
> C'mon 11spd! If your Johnson were really that big, you would be racing these guys on a knobby tired full-suspension mountain bike! :lol:


Truthfully, if you don't care about speed, why not be on a hybrid and ride bolt upright? What we have in this thread are guys who love maximum braking. This priority has a cost which is speed. Win win in design seldom exists.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> $200 Huffy riders can make it through flat lander group rides without crashing. Survival instinct dictates that people with inferior equipment adjust their riding and rides to suit their equipment.
> 
> Road bikers used 6 speed cassettes with friction shifters on heavy steel bikes for years. They'd still be using those antiquated relics if mountain bikers hadn't come along with their heads out of their a.. box. Many of the innovative standards used and perfected on MTBs were first attempted by infidel road bikers but discarded by the masses because of the Luddite propensities they cling to even today (belief in the "vast corporate conspiracy" is their first commandment).
> 
> I do appreciate your enthusiasm for antiques. It is that passion that allows us non-believers to dump our obsolete crap on followers. Keep the Faith.......please.


Your mtb and luddite references make me laugh and thanks for that at least. Luddite? Me?...lol. I am the guy who invents tech. You are the guy who misinterprets it. No surprised you are further mistaken that I somehow dismiss tech. I ride a carbon road bike with carbon cranks and carbon handlebar and 11s driveline. I am all about tech. 

Some tech is better than others for certain applications. Few would argue that for off road and even cross, discs are better. Just not on the road. Btw, a F1 car is faster at the track than a Kia. But the Kia is probably better for going to the grocery store since you like your analogies.

Pros, disc brake guys hate to think about because it is contrary to their mindset.. ride bikes with the latest technology. Of course they do because they won't make a living if they don't win. 98% in spite of disc brakes being legal for racing are on rim brakes. Even if it were true that disc brakes stop better or have superior modulation, then why in the world wouldn't the whole peloton be on disc brakes? Answer is simple. Pros perceive rim brakes to be faster.


----------



## 11spd

vic bastige said:


> 7 pages and you still have convinced nobody that is of a differing opinion to you. See, there is what is necessary and what is wanted. If we were to ride only what was necessary, we'd all probably be on steel frames with stem shifters. As with most sports and hobbies, it's more about want vs. need.
> 
> ...but hey, if another 7 pages of banter makes you happy, who knows? You may be the first to convince an aopposing point of view on discs.


Lesson learned? Difficult to teach flat earthers the world is really round, but I have tried.  You must have missed the part about guys here that own disk brake bikes that are going back to rim brakes due to incessant squealing and hearing loss...lol.


----------



## factory feel

11spd said:


> 11s driveline.


this speaks volumes


----------



## crankout

I certainly feel more confident on my disc-equipped gravel bike vs. rim-brake roadie when it comes to stopping power and inclement riding conditions.


----------



## timeless

Lombard said:


> Nope, never raced. Have no interest in racing or Eddie Merckx.
> 
> As far as group riding, if you are getting dropped by your group, you either need to train harder to get stronger or move down a level, plain and simple. My point is that eliminating disc brakes will not prevent you from getting dropped on your club ride. You can't buy speed.
> 
> C'mon 11spd! If your Johnson were really that big, you would be racing these guys on a knobby tired full-suspension mountain bike! :lol:


oh come on you can buy speed. Just lets be honest when I say buying speed I mean being able to buy less than 1 mph and it is not cheap.

I bought I would argue a little speed and endurance with my upgrade to my wheel set but that 2 grand I dropped for the upgrade I would argue bought me MAYBE and I mean MAYBE 1-2% and some comfort but sure as hell not enough to move me up a pace group.

The next 1k I drop on a group set upgrade I would say bought me 0 more speed but a lot of comfort.

You can buy speed but it has a very fast dimensioning returns.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Your mtb and luddite references make me laugh and thanks for that at least. Luddite? Me?...lol. I am the guy who invents tech. You are the guy who misinterprets it. No surprised you are further mistaken that I somehow dismiss tech. I ride a carbon road bike with carbon cranks and carbon handlebar and 11s driveline. I am all about tech.
> 
> Some tech is better than others for certain applications. Few would argue that for off road and even cross, discs are better. Just not on the road. Btw, a F1 car is faster at the track than a Kia. But the Kia is probably better for going to the grocery store since you like your analogies.
> 
> Pros, disc brake guys hate to think about because it is contrary to their mindset.. ride bikes with the latest technology. Of course they do because they won't make a living if they don't win. 98% in spite of disc brakes being legal for racing are on rim brakes. Even if it were true that disc brakes stop better or have superior modulation, then why in the world wouldn't the whole peloton be on disc brakes? Answer is simple. Pros perceive rim brakes to be faster.


The reason pros have clung to antiquated brakes is because the UCI is Eurocentric and campy has been unable to get up to date on braking technology. 

I have a Tarmac sl3 s-works with 11 speed campy record/super record components hanging on my den wall that I've not been on for 3 1/2 years. When I bought and installed the groupo for that bike, the Campy (rim) calipers lasted for about 3 rides down Figueroa before I replaced them with technologically modern rim brakes calipers. Eventually I bought a cannondale hi mod dura ace with discs and immediately began crushing my previous descending personal bests.

The point is, my observations about discs are not the product of BS. For me, cycling is about climbing and descending in the mountains. I have little passion for riding the flats other than as a training tool.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

hmm but last year IIRC only one Protour team was using Campy (OK 3 this year). Means enough euro-operated teams don't mind using shimano or sram. Once-mighty Campy's become a bit player in the racing bike components market


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> The reason pros have clung to antiquated brakes is because the UCI is Eurocentric and campy has been unable to get up to date on braking technology.
> 
> I have a Tarmac sl3 s-works with 11 speed campy record/super record components hanging on my den wall that I've not been on for 3 1/2 years. When I bought and installed the groupo for that bike, the Campy (rim) calipers lasted for about 3 rides down Figueroa before I replaced them with technologically modern rim brakes calipers. Eventually I bought a cannondale hi mod dura ace with discs and immediately began crushing my previous descending personal bests.
> 
> The point is, my observations about discs are not the product of BS. For me, cycling is about climbing and descending in the mountains. I have little passion for riding the flats other than as a training tool.


How can you be taken seriously when you throw Campy Super Record caliper brakes under the bus? Countless pros including Nibali won the Tour de France also on a Tarmac with those brakes. So your inability to sustain 3 rides on SR brakes is an indictment about you because you surely don't descend like pros in the Alps.
Sorry. Yes, DA dual pivot rim brakes IMO are better than SR rim brakes. But to say that SR brakes won't handle anything an amateur can throw at them is ridiculous.


----------



## vic bastige

11spd said:


> Lesson learned? Difficult to teach flat earthers the world is really round, but I have tried.  You must have missed the part about guys here that own disk brake bikes that are going back to rim brakes due to incessant squealing and hearing loss...lol.


I'll give you this, you are persistent and on a mission (and the Durianrider jpeg seems most apropos) . Tilting at windmills perhaps, but on a mission. Why not let people pick what they want, believe what they want, buy what they want? Discs stop a bike, rim brakes stop a bike. I have had both and find usefulness in both.

You have your truth, so remember: it isn't a lie if YOU believe it.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> How can you be taken seriously when you throw Campy Super Record caliper brakes under the bus? Countless pros including Nibali won the Tour de France also on a Tarmac with those brakes. So your inability to sustain 3 rides on SR brakes is an indictment about you because you surely don't descend like pros in the Alps.
> Sorry. Yes, DA dual pivot rim brakes IMO are better than SR rim brakes. But to say that SR brakes won't handle anything an amateur can throw at them is ridiculous.


Consider that mechanical drum brakes on automobiles were "handled" by millions for years. The could "handle anything an amateur could throw at them". With that being the test, is it safe to assume that you only purchase cars with mechanical drum brakes? Or is it that you begrudgingly betrayed the religion and succumbed to those bass turd corporations and moved up to hydraulic drum brakes? 

What are your plans for the time when all of the 20th century cars are in the junk yards and you're forced to buy something from this century (disc brakes)?

The notion that brakes are adequate if they will stop a bicycle is a clear sign that you should consider riding somewhere besides Florida. Once you try riding downhills through curves (you know, other than the freeway overpass) you'll learn that a fast bike is one with brakes that behave with complete consistency and precision in every hairpin and every weather condition.


----------



## SPlKE

Next person disses Campy gets a knuckle sandwich. No exceptions!


----------



## SwiftSolo

SPlKE said:


> Next person disses Campy gets a knuckle sandwich. No exceptions!


Hey, I'd still be riding campy if they'd had their sh!t together with functional hydraulic discs in 2014.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> Consider that mechanical drum brakes on automobiles were "handled" by millions for years. The could "handle anything an amateur could throw at them". With that being the test, is it safe to assume that you only purchase cars with mechanical drum brakes? Or is it that you begrudgingly betrayed the religion and succumbed to those bass turd corporations and moved up to hydraulic drum brakes?
> 
> What are your plans for the time when all of the 20th century cars are in the junk yards and you're forced to buy something from this century (disc brakes)?
> 
> The notion that brakes are adequate if they will stop a bicycle is a clear sign that you should consider riding somewhere besides Florida. Once you try riding downhills through curves (you know, other than the freeway overpass) you'll learn that a fast bike is one with brakes that behave with complete consistency and precision in every hairpin and every weather condition.


You are hilarious with your car analogies. How about pros descending 130kmh on the Tour de Suisse descent. You ever hit 80 mph on your disk brake bike? How in the world did they ever slow down? Divine intervention?

Pros hit astonishing speeds of more than 130kmh on Tour de Suisse descent - Cycling Weekly


----------



## SPlKE

SwiftSolo said:


> Hey, I'd still be riding campy if they'd had their sh!t together with functional hydraulic discs in 2014.


Don't push me, man. This thread has got me close to the edge.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

11spd said:


> How can you be taken seriously when you throw Campy Super Record caliper brakes under the bus? Countless pros including Nibali won the Tour de France also on a Tarmac with those brakes. So your inability to sustain 3 rides on SR brakes is an indictment about you because you surely don't descend like pros in the Alps.
> Sorry. Yes, DA dual pivot rim brakes IMO are better than SR rim brakes. But to say that SR brakes won't handle anything an amateur can throw at them is ridiculous.


amateur can more easily handle disc brakes than rim brakes which are generally a hot mess (super record, dura ace, you name it). average american male weighs 40lbs more than the riders you list .. need more braking control, esp in wet. 

I remember descending Alpe dHuez in a thunderstorm one evening (at the Tdf). My normally excellent dual pivot shimano brakes levers were bottomed to the bars and I was still accelerating in some of the corners. (and at the time I was the same weight as the tour leader that year) Hot mess those brakes. discs would have been a godsend that day. Note - the pros never have to race DOWN the Huez in the heavy rain like that, but that day 500,000 amateurs did have to manage it.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> You are hilarious with your car analogies. How about pros descending 130kmh on the Tour de Suisse descent. You ever hit 80 mph on your disk brake bike? How in the world did they ever slow down? Divine intervention?
> 
> Pros hit astonishing speeds of more than 130kmh on Tour de Suisse descent - Cycling Weekly


Now I see where you're coming from.

You're saying that using rim brakes on straight sections of descents will be faster than using good brakes.

But there's an admittedly complicated concept that you seem to be missing. Straight portions of descents don't require any brakes at all. They only make you slower than everybody who doesn't use them. 

On the other hand, you're right in suggesting that it's better to use rim brakes when braking is unnecessary.


----------



## 11spd

BCSaltchucker said:


> amateur can more easily handle disc brakes than rim brakes which are generally a hot mess (super record, dura ace, you name it). average american male weighs 40lbs more than the riders you list .. need more braking control, esp in wet.
> 
> I remember descending Alpe dHuez in a thunderstorm one evening (at the Tdf). My normally excellent dual pivot shimano brakes levers were bottomed to the bars and I was still accelerating in some of the corners. (and at the time I was the same weight as the tour leader that year) Hot mess those brakes. discs would have been a godsend that day. Note - the pros never have to race DOWN the Huez in the heavy rain like that, but that day 500,000 amateurs did have to manage it.


 Hot mess I tell you. Tour de France, Alpe dHuez in a thunderstorm, same weight as a tour rider, and levers pasted again the handlebar and still accelerating. A runaway train I tell you.
If above were true, every pro today would be on hydro disk brakes. Who wants to descend and not be able to control their bicycle? Guess what? Disk brakes are legal and pros who make a living riding bikes who routinely descend 60 mph+ rain or shine almost unanimously ‘choose’ rim brakes. Big brand bike sellers would prefer their sponsored riders to be on disk brakes because they make more profit selling them and would appreciate the advertising. But no, pros choose rim brakes because they believe they race more effectively on them.
Hot mess alright…your dismissal of rim brakes being best for ‘better riders who want overall performance i.e. lowest weight, best aerodynamics and sufficient braking.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

11spd said:


> Hot mess I tell you. Tour de France, Alpe dHuez in a thunderstorm, same weight as a tour rider, and levers pasted again the handlebar and still accelerating. A runaway train I tell you.
> If above were true, every pro today would be on hydro disk brakes. Who wants to descend and not be able to control their bicycle? Guess what? Disk brakes are legal and pros who make a living riding bikes who routinely descend 60 mph+ rain or shine almost unanimously ‘choose’ rim brakes. Big brand bike sellers would prefer their sponsored riders to be on disk brakes because they make more profit selling them and would appreciate the advertising. But no, pros choose rim brakes because they believe they race more effectively on them.
> Hot mess alright…your dismissal of rim brakes being best for ‘better riders who want overall performance i.e. lowest weight, best aerodynamics and sufficient braking.


No I am demonstrating why amateurs, average folks could benefit and really use disc brakes over rim brakes. pros would never have to negotiate a descent like Huez in heavy ran with 500,000 people in the way. though that day was 26 years ago, disc brakes a pipe dream at the time. MOre recently I did the Whistler fond and it rained the entire length. The rim brakes were not really doing the job of 'braking' just some irregular slight slowing down, and it was pretty scary though luckily the hills were straight enough to coast. 

I really think you ought to try riding in the Dolomites in a rainstorm with discs and rim brakes just for comparison - steep hills, narrow, tight corners.

fwiw - my road bike still on ultegra rim brakes. for a few reasons (big one being ease of fixing the brakes when I travel out of country with it). But I look forward to getting road bike with discs also to add to my herd


----------



## SPlKE

BCSaltchucker said:


> amateur can more easily handle disc brakes than rim brakes which are generally a hot mess (super record, dura ace, you name it). average american male weighs 40lbs more than the riders you list .. need more braking control, esp in wet.
> 
> I remember descending Alpe dHuez in a thunderstorm one evening (at the Tdf). My normally excellent dual pivot shimano brakes levers were bottomed to the bars and I was still accelerating in some of the corners. (and at the time I was the same weight as the tour leader that year) Hot mess those brakes. discs would have been a godsend that day. Note - the pros never have to race DOWN the Huez in the heavy rain like that, but that day 500,000 amateurs did have to manage it.


Next time you're descending Alpe dHuez in a thunderstorm one evening (at the Tdf), ride an orange bike. Problem solved.


----------



## Maelochs

BCSaltchucker said:


> MOre recently I did the Whistler fond and it rained the entire length. The rim brakes were not really doing the job of 'braking' just some irregular slight slowing down, and it was pretty scary though luckily the hills were straight enough to coast.


 Might I suggest you ditch the steel rims and get some salmon Koolstops?

I'd say a lot of us have ridden downhill in the rain and this mysterious and almost total inability of your brakes to even slow you ... well ... if that were the case Nobody would be able to stop at speed int he wet, and we all would have died long ago, before discs were invented. 

Seriously, I commuted on steel rims in the hard rain a lot (when i had to ) and while the braking there was sketchy it wasn't non-existent. Alloy rims and cheap pads stopped fine after that first second while the rim squeegeed.

Not saying you are exaggerating ... just saying no one else on the planet seems to have had a similar experience.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

Maelochs said:


> Might I suggest you ditch the steel rims and get some salmon Koolstops?
> 
> I'd say a lot of us have ridden downhill in the rain and this mysterious and almost total inability of your brakes to even slow you ... well ... if that were the case Nobody would be able to stop at speed int he wet, and we all would have died long ago, before discs were invented.
> 
> Seriously, I commuted on steel rims in the hard rain a lot (when i had to ) and while the braking there was sketchy it wasn't non-existent. Alloy rims and cheap pads stopped fine after that first second while the rim squeegeed.
> 
> Not saying you are exaggerating ... just saying no one else on the planet seems to have had a similar experience.


steel rims?? 

Oh yeah did have steel rims with the Mafacs, up till about 1978. Currently have a porcelain veneer on my central incisor from a crash in 1977 riding down a steep hill in scotland in a rainstorm, at age 9 with 35 lbs of stuff in the panniers - OK I am not saying disc would have for sure saved me then, but maybe I would have been able to slow down more easily before the curvy switchback where I wiped out.

steel rims, lol. trolling eh? though I guess we can agree - the rim brakes are, as you say 'sketchy'

have been using Koolstops and Mathausers since the late 70s

did 100km yesterday. because it was dry, the rim brakes were 100% up to the task. but then was fairly flat ride


----------



## SwiftSolo

Maelochs said:


> Might I suggest you ditch the steel rims and get some salmon Koolstops?
> 
> I'd say a lot of us have ridden downhill in the rain and this mysterious and almost total inability of your brakes to even slow you ... well ... if that were the case Nobody would be able to stop at speed int he wet, and we all would have died long ago, before discs were invented.
> 
> Seriously, I commuted on steel rims in the hard rain a lot (when i had to ) and while the braking there was sketchy it wasn't non-existent. Alloy rims and cheap pads stopped fine after that first second while the rim squeegeed.
> 
> Not saying you are exaggerating ... just saying no one else on the planet seems to have had a similar experience.


Lots of folks playing stupid to justify riding antiquated garbage.

Everybody who rides in the snowmelt on mountain descents in Washington and most everywhere else has experienced the "oh sh!t" feeling of pulling their levers going into hairpins and feeling absolutely no deceleration at all for several revolutions. That experience does not exist with disc brakes. The sensation is that the bike actually accelerates since the rider is poised for the opposite.

The combination of water and residual road sanding grit make a fine lubricant until the water dissipates.


----------



## Kontact

It is a funny discussion, especially when disc vs rim is compared to cars:

Both rim and disc are types of disc brakes. The ones we call "disc" are just the ones with the tiniest rotors.

The "issue" is that the attempt to make aero rims light have caused the excellent aluminum braking surfaces of road rims to be removed in favor of bare carbon. This was done primarily for weight - rim weight, not wheel or bike weight. Having made the rims very light we then started looking for a braking solution, which just brought more weight back on the bike than was removed with the all carbon rims. 

I don't think that was a very good bargain. You need a rim either way, why not put that piece of metal where it also serves a structural purpose in the rim and avoid the thermal load of a tiny disc? Has anyone bothered to experiment with metallic braking surface rims and something other than a standard black rubber break pad to solve wet braking issues? It doesn't seem like it.


Why should anyone care? *Because disc brakes destroy the ride qualities of road bikes.* Unlike MTBs, road bikes are supposed to have ride qualities that come from something other than the tires and seat. The forks are supposed to flex, the stays are supposed to absorb vibration. You can't make a road disc fork that will flex (in a good way) like a rim brake carbon fork - the brake load would snap a standard fork (and have).


So disc brakes seem like a Faustian bargain where we have made no effort to increase the braking quality of metal rims and have gone to this tiny disc and reinforced, overly rigid frames to "solve" a problem that no one ever felt was an issue until quite recently. It isn't like disc brakes haven't been available on motorbikes and scooters forever for those pros and tourist who felt that their rim brakes were seriously lacking. Yet they just put cantilever bosses on instead.


----------



## OldChipper

SwiftSolo said:


> Lots of folks playing stupid to justify riding antiquated garbage.
> 
> Everybody who rides in the snowmelt on mountain descents in Washington and most everywhere else has experienced the "oh sh!t" feeling of pulling their levers going into hairpins and feeling absolutely no deceleration at all for several revolutions. That experience does not exist with disc brakes. The sensation is that the bike actually accelerates since the rider is poised for the opposite.
> 
> The combination of water and residual road sanding grit make a fine lubricant until the water dissipates.


So I guess it's out of the question for the rider to realize that they're riding in the wet and start braking a little sooner so as to give the pads a couple of revolutions to squeegee the water off the rim? Or used KoolStop Salmon pads on Aluminum rims? Both options have served me and many others very well in the past. And speaking of the Faustian bargain, I don't know why anyone would trade the downsides of discs for the exceedingly small percentage of times they descend mountain passes in the wet.


----------



## 11spd

OldChipper said:


> So I guess it's out of the question for the rider to realize that they're riding in the wet and start braking a little sooner so as to give the pads a couple of revolutions to squeegee the water off the rim? Or used KoolStop Salmon pads on Aluminum rims? Both options have served me and many others very well in the past. And speaking of the Faustian bargain, I don't know why anyone would trade the downsides of discs for the exceedingly small percentage of times they descend mountain passes in the wet.


Perfectly to the point and well said. Pro versus con. Rim brakes win and why professional riders and better amateurs choose rim brakes.

That said, if you do live in the mountains and find yourself riding all the time in extreme weather aka rain and snow due to temp change in high elevations, there is an argument for discs. Of course living in snowy, high precipitation areas of the planet suggests poor judgement on another level.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> Consider that mechanical drum brakes on automobiles were "handled" by millions for years. The could "handle anything an amateur could throw at them". With that being the test, is it safe to assume that you only purchase cars with mechanical drum brakes? Or is it that you begrudgingly betrayed the religion and succumbed to those bass turd corporations and moved up to hydraulic drum brakes?
> 
> What are your plans for the time when all of the 20th century cars are in the junk yards and you're forced to buy something from this century (disc brakes)?
> 
> The notion that brakes are adequate if they will stop a bicycle is a clear sign that you should consider riding somewhere besides Florida. Once you try riding downhills through curves (you know, other than the freeway overpass) you'll learn that a fast bike is one with brakes that behave with complete consistency and precision in every hairpin and every weather condition.


Your limited perspective of only looking at pure braking is why you don't understand. 

Rim brakes are:
Lighter
more aero
Much easier maintenance
lower cost

and, they stop great.

I like my analogy of putting Brembos on your Honda Element. Not necessary for same reasons reflected on why pros and better amateurs prefer rim brakes....except for the added aero benefit of rim brakes.


----------



## exracer

OldChipper said:


> So I guess it's out of the question for the rider to realize that they're riding in the wet and start braking a little sooner so as to give the pads a couple of revolutions to squeegee the water off the rim? Or used KoolStop Salmon pads on Aluminum rims? Both options have served me and many others very well in the past. And speaking of the Faustian bargain, I don't know why anyone would trade the downsides of discs for the exceedingly small percentage of times they descend mountain passes in the wet.


Stop it! You're making sense. 

The only thing I disagree with is the "downsides to discs". I don't really see a downside to them. I know people like to say "they are not as light", "they are not as aerodynamic". Let's face it, you going to go just as fast on the flats with them. It's not like you're going to be dragging a parachute behind you. They do have better modulation but at the same time there is no huge benefit to them in 99% of the riding people do.

The major reason they came out is because like many things in the cycling world, carbon clinchers were not ready for prime time. Seems like for a lot of companies it is the old "get it out to the public" and no thought goes into the design phase. 

Heard similar arguments in motorcycling, cars. Somebody with superior skill and so called "antiquated crap" can beat minor improvements in technology 90% of the time.


----------



## Teuthis

Eight pages, and no one's mentioned that radial-laced front wheels look straight up sexier than 2x? We gotta get our priorities straight.


----------



## woodys737

OldChipper said:


> So I guess it's out of the question for the rider to realize that they're riding in the wet and start braking a little sooner so as to give the pads a couple of revolutions to squeegee the water off the rim? Or used KoolStop Salmon pads on Aluminum rims? Both options have served me and many others very well in the past. And speaking of the Faustian bargain, I don't know why anyone would trade the downsides of discs for the exceedingly small percentage of times they descend mountain passes in the wet.


This is why the few pro cyclist I know who use disc equiped biked love them. That is to say, they have more control while descending very fast under inclement weather in close/tight with many other riders. We didn't discuss any other aspect of them though...


----------



## den bakker

11spd said:


> Of course living in snowy, high precipitation areas of the planet suggests poor judgement on another level.


living a place you can go up HC climbs from your house and have skiing in the winter within 1 hour drive is poor judgement? Whatever floats your boat.


----------



## MoPho

den bakker said:


> living a place you can go up HC climbs from your house and have skiing in the winter within 1 hour drive is poor judgement? Whatever floats your boat.




He's a flatlander, his opinion is worthless



.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> Both rim and disc are types of disc brakes. The ones we call "disc" are just the ones with the tiniest rotors.


And the one we call rim use a stretchable cable, inside a compressible housing, connected to flexible caliper arms, attached to the bike with a flexible single bolt, which then uses compressible brake pads to press on a compressible brake track while diminishing the feel and control and dissipate the heat into your tire changing the air pressure with the possibility of blowing it off the rim or even delaminating the rim.






> Because disc brakes destroy the ride qualities of road bikes.


No they don't. 





OldChipper said:


> Both options have served me and many others very well in the past.


Well gee, toe clips, downtube shifters and 25lbs steel bikes served me and many others very well in the past too, so lets go back to using those since clearly they are good enough 




> I don't know why anyone would trade the downsides of discs for the exceedingly small percentage of times they descend mountain passes in the wet.



Because they are better in ALL conditions, and some of us descend mountain passes a large percentage of the time and like to have good control and better feel.


----------



## Kontact

exracer said:


> The only thing I disagree with is the "downsides to discs". I don't really see a downside to them.


How about the fact that frame and fork have to be beefed up to where they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well?


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> How about the fact that frame and fork have to be beefed up to where they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well?



Stop making crap up


.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Your limited perspective of only looking at pure braking is why you don't understand.
> 
> Rim brakes are:
> Lighter
> more aero
> Much easier maintenance
> lower cost
> 
> and, they stop great.
> 
> I like my analogy of putting Brembos on your Honda Element. Not necessary for same reasons reflected on why pros and better amateurs prefer rim brakes....except for the added aero benefit of rim brakes.


Regarding "aero", show me wind tunnel data gathered from bikes with riders. I'll give you the point that those who engage in riderless bikes racing should avoid the small drag increase caused by disc brakes on bikes with this missing component.

The weight argument involves less than a pound (about the weight of a water bottle 1/3 of the way empty).

The real problem you're having is that some folks here have used rim brakes for many years and hydraulic discs for a few. They can spot the BS of those who have zero hydraulic disc experience from a mile.

The biggest give away is the fantasy maintenance issue. They can change brake pads on their hydraulic disc bikes in about 25% of the time it takes you to change and adjust your rim brake pads. Also, they no longer need to maintain their expertise at replacing housings and grip tape. I've not needed to bleed or replace any fluid in the 3 1/2 seasons I've been on them.

You are correct in saying that obsolete technology is almost always cheaper, both in price and in quality. On the other hand, your current bike may be gaining value in much the same way that penny farthings with spoon brakes have in recent years. You might want to consider vacuum bagging it and waiting for a call from a bike museum?


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> How about the fact that frame and fork have to be beefed up to where they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well?


Then you use the most effective suspension you have - your tires. :idea:


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Stop making crap up
> 
> 
> .


Which part? That you can't use a standard fork with only bosses added because it will break, or the consequences of it not breaking under disc loads?


----------



## Kontact

Lombard said:


> Then you use the most effective suspension you have - your tires. :idea:


Right. Let's make bikes faster and more able by using 30c tires.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> Which part? That you can't use a standard fork with only bosses added because it will break, or the consequences of it not breaking under disc loads?


Uh, the part that I quoted where you said they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well, that is load of BS! 


.



.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> And the one we call rim use a stretchable cable, inside a compressible housing, connected to flexible caliper arms, attached to the bike with a flexible single bolt, which then uses compressible brake pads to press on a compressible brake track while diminishing the feel and control and dissipate the heat into your tire changing the air pressure with the possibility of blowing it off the rim or even delaminating the rim.


Hydraulic rim brakes are many times older than disc brakes for bicycles. Were you unaware of that?

But I find it interesting that you are concerned with heat, yet you want to use disc the size of a pot pie. Rim breaks have never had a significant heat problem while discs have and do.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

Kontact said:


> Right. Let's make bikes faster and more able by using 30c tires.


well this isn't 1985 any more. turns out the science demonstrates - the idea of skinnier-harder (eg 19c) tires being faster isn't correct. 28mm tires actually have less rolling resistance than 25 or 23mm, esp when set to more comfortable psi. With advances in aero, the wider rims matched with 28mm tires can equal the aero performance of 25 and 23mm. and by going tubeless the 28mm rotational mass can weigh less than 25mm

I'd go to 28mm in a heartbeat if they'd fit on my bike .. but alas: rim brakes in the way


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> Hydraulic rim brakes are many times older than disc brakes for bicycles. Were you unaware of that?
> 
> But I find it interesting that you are concerned with heat, yet you want to use disc the size of a pot pie. Rim breaks have never had a significant heat problem while discs have and do.



Just because something is older doesn't mean it is better, were you aware of that?

I have witnessed several people blow their tires off their alloy rims under braking, and others have delaminated carbon wheels, so yes, rim BRAKES have a heat issue. 

Yes, disc brakes get hot, but they don't cause your tire to blow your rim and they cool down fast because unlike rims, get more air across them


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Uh, the part that I quoted where you said they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well, that is load of BS!


And you base this on what test?

Here's a pre-disc fork test. Not surprisingly, the more flexible forks at the time were known for their comfort and good handling:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rinard_forktest.html

Here's a pro/con article that specifically talks about the rigidity required for disc forks:
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/disc-brake-pros-and-cons/


If you have some information on how a stiffer fork can absorb bumps identically to a springier one, please post it.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Just because something is older doesn't mean it is better, were you aware of that?
> 
> I have witnessed several people blow their tires off their alloy rims under braking, and others have delaminated carbon wheels, so yes, rim BRAKES have a heat issue.
> 
> Yes, disc brakes get hot, but they don't cause your tire to blow your rim and they cool down fast because unlike rims, get more air across them


I would love hear more about the number of tires blown off rims from mountain descents compared to the number of disc brake fade incidents.

But I like your theory that a little disc is somehow cooling better than a large rim that are both moving through the same same air.


----------



## Kontact

BCSaltchucker said:


> well this isn't 1985 any more. turns out the science demonstrates - the idea of skinnier-harder (eg 19c) tires being faster isn't correct. 28mm tires actually have less rolling resistance than 25 or 23mm, esp when set to more comfortable psi. With advances in aero, the wider rims matched with 28mm tires can equal the aero performance of 25 and 23mm. and by going tubeless the 28mm rotational mass can weigh less than 25mm
> 
> I'd go to 28mm in a heartbeat if they'd fit on my bike .. but alas: rim brakes in the way


No one said that we should be riding the skinniest 19c tires we can find. The current ideal for average size riders is thought to be a 25c tire inflated correctly for your body weight. Make the tire too small and the air pressure goes up too much for pinch flat protection and the tire doesn't deflect enough. Make the tire too large and the weight and rolling resistance becomes too high. 

The best formula is a reasonable size tire at proper pressure on a bike that does its part in also absorbing shock and keeping the tire in contact with the road.

The disc philosophy is to say that all that refinement in tire and frame development over the history of road bicycles can be ignored because fat tires are available.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> And you base this on what test?
> 
> Here's a pre-disc fork test. Not surprisingly, the more flexible forks at the time were known for their comfort and good handling:
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rinard_forktest.html
> 
> Here's a pro/con article that specifically talks about the rigidity required for disc forks:
> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/disc-brake-pros-and-cons/
> 
> 
> If you have some information on how a stiffer fork can absorb bumps identically to a springier one, please post it.




Your first article is not talking about disc and not really irrelevant, but it doesn't help your argument. In the third paragraph it says "*If you are looking for more precise handling, buy a fork that is stiffer*." It goes on to say "*Truthfully, the differences between forks are pretty small. Nice light wheels make a much more noticeable difference*." 

The second article is talking about big heavy alloy "allroad" bikes, not performance road bikes that have stiff forks with very little suspension qualities to begin with, rim or brake, so also irrelevant. 
You are also assuming that engineers can't compensate in other areas for the added stiffness needed for disc mounting.

Your assertions that disc road bikes "no longer absorb bumps", and in particular, will "not hold the pavement well" as if you will go skidding off the road, is absolutely absurd! I've put nearly 10k miles on my disc bike and there is no difference. We are talking about stiff performance road bikes here, the things that really change the ride are wheels, tires, and air pressure, not the fork. 

And BTW disc brakes have been on endurance bikes (you know, comfort bikes) for a long time, so apparently it is not an issue.


.


----------



## Lombard

BCSaltchucker said:


> well this isn't 1985 any more. turns out the science demonstrates - the idea of skinnier-harder (eg 19c) tires being faster isn't correct. 28mm tires actually have less rolling resistance than 25 or 23mm, esp when set to more comfortable psi. With advances in aero, the wider rims matched with 28mm tires can equal the aero performance of 25 and 23mm. and by going tubeless the 28mm rotational mass can weigh less than 25mm
> 
> I'd go to 28mm in a heartbeat if they'd fit on my bike .. but alas: rim brakes in the way


To be fair, it's the chainstays that limit my road bike to 28mm tires, not the rim brake calipers. 

As far as speed differences, there could be some but they are small. As far as that is concerned, I can't tell (nor can my Strava results tell) the difference between my 28mm tire rim brake road bike and my 36mm tire disc brake gravel bike.

What is definitely noticeable is the gravel bike is more comfortable, beefy fork and all!


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> And you base this on what test?
> 
> Here's a pre-disc fork test. Not surprisingly, the more flexible forks at the time were known for their comfort and good handling:
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rinard_forktest.html
> 
> Here's a pro/con article that specifically talks about the rigidity required for disc forks:
> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/disc-brake-pros-and-cons/
> 
> 
> If you have some information on how a stiffer fork can absorb bumps identically to a springier one, please post it.


And did you happen to read the whole Sheldon Brown article including this part:

*Will you notice a difference?*

Some riders seem not to notice anything about their bikes. Other riders notice everything. Some riders even notice differences that don't exist! *Truthfully, the differences between forks are pretty small. Nice light wheels make a much more noticeable difference. Padded handlebar tape or slightly more or less air pressure make about as noticeable a difference as a new fork, in my experience.* But many riders rave about the improved sprinting a stiff fork gives them, or the new-found confidence on fast downhills. Others love the comfort they can finally enjoy on longer rides after installing a more flexible fork. The bottom line is: you* might* notice a difference.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Your first article is not talking about disc and not really irrelevant, but it doesn't help your argument. In the third paragraph it says "*If you are looking for more precise handling, buy a fork that is stiffer*." It goes on to say "*Truthfully, the differences between forks are pretty small. Nice light wheels make a much more noticeable difference*."
> 
> The second article is talking about big heavy alloy "allroad" bikes, not performance road bikes that have stiff forks with very little suspension qualities to begin with, rim or brake, so also irrelevant.
> You are also assuming that engineers can't compensate in other areas for the added stiffness needed for disc mounting.
> 
> Your assertions that disc road bikes "no longer absorb bumps", and in particular, will "not hold the pavement well" as if you will go skidding off the road, is absolutely absurd! I've put nearly 10k miles on my disc bike and there is no difference. We are talking about stiff performance road bikes here, the things that really change the ride are wheels, tires, and air pressure, not the fork.
> 
> And BTW disc brakes have been on endurance bikes (you know, comfort bikes) for a long time, so apparently it is not an issue.


I didn't say you'd go skidding off the road. 30 years ago people loved Cannondales for crit bikes, but everyone understood the tradeoff then between rigidity and comfort. And Cannondale managed to change that perception when they lightened up the back end and added SR aluminum forks.

So you are now simultaneously arguing that fork ride quality doesn't matter, and that the ride is just as good as those top end carbon road forks that we all went gaga over in the '90s.


----------



## Kontact

Lombard said:


> And did you happen to read the whole Sheldon Brown article including this part:
> 
> *Will you notice a difference?*
> 
> Some riders seem not to notice anything about their bikes. Other riders notice everything. Some riders even notice differences that don't exist! *Truthfully, the differences between forks are pretty small. Nice light wheels make a much more noticeable difference. Padded handlebar tape or slightly more or less air pressure make about as noticeable a difference as a new fork, in my experience.* But many riders rave about the improved sprinting a stiff fork gives them, or the new-found confidence on fast downhills. Others love the comfort they can finally enjoy on longer rides after installing a more flexible fork. The bottom line is: you* might* notice a difference.


I did read the article. Can you tell the difference between a steel fork and a carbon one? I sure can. If you are one of the people who couldn't tell the difference between any two different bikes beside the frame color, then ride quality isn't going to matter to you.

But plenty of other people do care about how a bike feels and rides. Telling people they should suddenly stop caring about those things because of the hot new braking trend isn't going to work.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> I didn't say you'd go skidding off the road. 30 years ago people loved Cannondales for crit bikes, but everyone understood the tradeoff then between rigidity and comfort. And Cannondale managed to change that perception when they lightened up the back end and added SR aluminum forks.
> 
> So you are now simultaneously arguing that fork ride quality doesn't matter, and that the ride is just as good as those top end carbon road forks that we all went gaga over in the '90s.



No, I am saying your claims to "the fact that frame and fork have to be beefed up to where they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well" is a load of bullish!t! 



.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> No, I am saying your assertion of "the fact that frame and fork have to be beefed up to where they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement *as well*" is a load of bullish!t!


How is it bullshit to say that a more rigid bike flexes less than a more flexible one? Is physics different on disc bikes, or just where you live?


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> How is it bullshit to say that a more rigid bike flexes less than a more rigid one? Are physics different on disc bikes, or just where you live?



Again, you said " they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well", that is greatly exaggerated BS. Again, I have a disc bike, it absorbs the bumps and handles as well as the bike I had before, which was the same make and model but the rim brake version. What actually makes a difference to those things is switching the wheels and/or tires. PERIOD! 

.


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> I did read the article. Can you tell the difference between a steel fork and a carbon one? I sure can. If you are one of the people who couldn't tell the difference between any two different bikes beside the frame color, then ride quality isn't going to matter to you.
> 
> But plenty of other people do care about how a bike feels and rides. Telling people they should suddenly stop caring about those things because of the hot new braking trend isn't going to work.


I would say all other things being equal, one _*may*_ notice a difference. That is what Sheldon Brown was saying as well - that there are other things that will make more of a difference. As far as comfort, wider tires will make more difference than anything else. Unless you are racing and a few seconds make a difference between winning and losing, 35mm smooth tires will be nearly as fast as 25mm smooth tires.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Again, you said " they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well", that is greatly exaggerated BS. Again, I have a disc bike, it absorbs the bumps and handles as well as the bike I had before, which was the same make and model but the rim brake version. What actually makes a difference to those things is switching the wheels and/or tires. PERIOD!
> 
> .


So, in your limited experience with two bikes, you feel that you know how the best traditional road bikes handle and absorb chatter compared to the best disc bikes.

Have you considered that your sample set of two might not be enough for you to have much of an opinion on the qualities of the best bicycles? Perhaps your old bike was made pretty much like your disc bike to save costs.


What we are discussing is not the ride quality differences between two $400 hybrid bikes, but the differences between the high end stuff that people pay for small differences in performance.

You can't argue the theoretical differences between the qualities of different types of products if your experience with them is limited to one each, and not necessarily on the high end.

For your average rider and your average road bike, it might not matter at all. Bike companies have been selling stiffness as a marketing metric for several decades because it is easy to measure and feel. That's despite a complete lack of actual real world testing demonstrating that 1.5" steerers or oversized chainstays actually make anyone faster.

So I am not shocked that your old rim bike felt no different from your disc bike. I doubt either one has ride qualities that I would necessarily like.


----------



## Kontact

Lombard said:


> I would say all other things being equal, one _*may*_ notice a difference. That is what Sheldon Brown was saying as well - that there are other things that will make more of a difference. As far as comfort, wider tires will make more difference than anything else. Unless you are racing and a few seconds make a difference between winning and losing, 35mm smooth tires will be nearly as fast as 25mm smooth tires.


Than ride your 35mm tires. Just don't be surprised that everyone else doesn't feel that is a good bargain for better wet riding brakes.


This is a road bike/road racing bike topic. No one is saying that MTBs or gravel bikes shouldn't have disc brakes. The argument really comes down to what is the best way of making a bike designed to go as fast as possible on pavement. And that means skinnier tires, light weight, vibration management and predictability. Road bikes are at the extreme end of cycling, and suggesting that we could all just ride our MTBs with slick tires installed misses the point of owning and riding a nice road machine.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> I did read the article. Can you tell the difference between a steel fork and a carbon one? I sure can. If you are one of the people who couldn't tell the difference between any two different bikes beside the frame color, then ride quality isn't going to matter to you.
> 
> But plenty of other people do care about how a bike feels and rides. Telling people they should suddenly stop caring about those things because of the hot new braking trend isn't going to work.


Then you could also tell the difference between two different carbon forks. Remember, fly rods are made of carbon and flex a great deal but seldom break (except when slammed in a car door). Carbon forks can be made to provide a wide variety of ride characteristics but, like steel, none with practical characteristics will change the overall ride as much as wheels and tires.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> So, in your limited experience with two bikes, you feel that you know how the best traditional road bikes handle and absorb chatter compared to the best disc bikes.
> 
> Have you considered that your sample set of two might not be enough for you to have much of an opinion on the qualities of the best bicycles? Perhaps your old bike was made pretty much like your disc bike to save costs.
> 
> 
> What we are discussing is not the ride quality differences between two $400 hybrid bikes, but the differences between the high end stuff that people pay for small differences in performance.
> 
> You can't argue the theoretical differences between the qualities of different types of products if your experience with them is limited to one each, and not necessarily on the high end.
> 
> For your average rider and your average road bike, it might not matter at all. Bike companies have been selling stiffness as a marketing metric for several decades because it is easy to measure and feel. That's despite a complete lack of actual real world testing demonstrating that 1.5" steerers or oversized chainstays actually make anyone faster.
> 
> So I am not shocked that your old rim bike felt no different from your disc bike. I doubt either one has ride qualities that I would necessarily like.



Well gee, since we're going to make condescending assumptions now, have you considered that your lack of experience with disc bikes might not be enough for you to have a valid opinion on the qualities of such bikes? 


Oh, and the bikes I am referring to are high end bikes
Nice try though :thumbsup:




.





.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Well gee, since we're going to make condescending assumptions now, have you considered that your lack of experience with disc bikes might not be enough for you to have a valid opinion on the qualities of such bikes?
> 
> 
> Oh, and the bikes I am referring to are high end bikes
> Nice try though :thumbsup:


Oh, I'm the one being condescending now?

You can share whatever experience you want, but I suggest that you channel more than two bikes before you tell people that they are full of BS.


----------



## Maelochs

Kontact said:


> The argument really comes down to what is the best way of making a bike designed to go as fast as possible on pavement.


 You think there is only one argument happening here?


Kontact said:


> And that means skinnier tires, light weight, vibration management and predictability.


 Well, since it seems skinny tires aren't an aid to speed ...  

Even for a "road bike" as you define it, there are trade-offs no matter which brake system is used. And which trade-offs each rider chooses is hopefully determined by how that rider uses it. 

I have a couple skinny-tire road bikes ... I don't ride as fast as possible. So ... are they road bikes? How skinny does a tire have to be?

If one of my bikes has 28s and discs, is it really a rigid, drop-bar MTB? If I had the identical frame with 28s and rim brakes, would That be a "road bike"? 

Or does it rest on whether I rides as fast as possible?


This whole debate is Really silly. 'Better" is not something which can be quantified in this case. 

That's what makes it such an enjoyable read.

My favorite color is faster than yours.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> Then you could also tell the difference between two different carbon forks. Remember, fly rods are made of carbon and flex a great deal but seldom break (except when slammed in a car door). Carbon forks can be made to provide a wide variety of ride characteristics but, like steel, none with practical characteristics will change the overall ride as much as wheels and tires.


They can and do provide a great range of ride characteristics, and people can tell them apart. But the the best road disc forks ride nothing like best riding road rim forks. They can't - hub braking is too hard on flexible rim forks and they break.


----------



## dcorn

Interesting the disc haters that say "I can lock up my wheel with rim brakes, its the tire contact patch that is the limiting factor", but then don't take into account that you can run wider tires with discs which will increase the size of the contact patch. So not only will you get stronger, easier to modulate brakes that won't overheat and destroy your rims, you'll get more traction through wider tires. 

This past year, I've swapped back and forth between:

-SL4 S-works Tarmac with Mavic Exalith wheels, high end TRP brakes, and 25mm tubed tires at 120 psi
-carbon Crux with Sram hydro disc brakes and 32mm tubeless slicks at 70psi

Both are very stiff race bikes. The Tarmac rides like a stone compared to the Crux, obviously because of the tire width and pressure. Riding the Crux is heavenly in comparison, even over graded asphalt. Braking on the Tarmac is about as good as it gets for rim brakes and it absolutely sucks compared to Rival hydro discs. Every time I get back on the Tarmac, I feel like I forgot to put in brake pads or something, the comparison is undeniable. Discs are absolutely better in every way than rim brakes. Riding in the rain makes it 100x more obvious. I had to descent Bear Mtn in New York in the rain and it was absolutely terrifying because even my Exalith brakes could barely slow me down. I will not buy another rim brake bike, no reason to. 

11spd keeps making car comparisons when it really proves opposite point. Cars have had disc brakes for years. If cars used their wheels for brakes like bikes, wheels would be exploding all the time and would have to be engineered completely different. Instead, discs are used which are purpose built to slow and stop a car, not anything else. Don't have to worry about the heat generation because the brake rotors are specifically designed to get super hot and disperse the heat. Don't need super heavy car wheels because they have a brake track molded in them. And yes, if I was going to take a Honda Fit or Element racing (like people do with bikes), I would absolutely put a Brembo kit on it because it's made specifically for the heat and abuse in racing.


----------



## Kontact

Maelochs said:


> You think there is only one argument happening here?


One argument? No. One essential divide? Yes. Just how much of what makes a road bike should be tossed out to service the installation of a different kind of brake?


> Well, since it seems skinny tires aren't an aid to speed ...
> 
> Even for a "road bike" as you define it, there are trade-offs no matter which brake system is used. And which trade-offs each rider chooses is hopefully determined by how that rider uses it.
> 
> I have a couple skinny-tire road bikes ... I don't ride as fast as possible. So ... are they road bikes? How skinny does a tire have to be?
> 
> If one of my bikes has 28s and discs, is it really a rigid, drop-bar MTB? If I had the identical frame with 28s and rim brakes, would That be a "road bike"?
> 
> Or does it rest on whether I rides as fast as possible?
> 
> 
> This whole debate is Really silly. 'Better" is not something which can be quantified in this case.
> 
> That's what makes it such an enjoyable read.
> 
> My favorite color is faster than yours.


You can put narrow tires on your cross bike and call it a road bike. Does that make it a road bike? If I put a wing on a Corolla does that make it a sports car?


Road racing bikes are thoroughbreds. They grew out of stage racing where the bike had to climb, descend and corner as fast as possible while still being comfortable enough to ride 100 miles day after day. That was no small feat, and road bikes have changed very gradually over time because they have been the subject of so much refinement. That's the reason I can take a 1970s Suntour group and build it on a brand new carbon road frame. We're still using 700c tires, same basic handlebar shape, same position as Major Taylor.

There is no reason that we couldn't all just buy 29er MTBs and a couple pair of tires. I'm sure the TDF race times wouldn't even be that radically different. That isn't the answer to why we like and ride road bikes.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> You can share whatever experience you want, but I suggest that you channel more than two bikes before you tell people that they are full of BS.




Aside from the fact that I've had quite a few bikes over more than 25 years of years riding, comparing two frame/forks that are the same make and model, one with rim brakes and one with disc is a far more relevant point of reference than say, comparing a Pinarello rim brake bike to a BMC disc brake bike and then declaring it's the disc brakes that make the BMC more harsh 

There are so many variables in what affects the way a bike feels and handles that you cannot just make the claims you are spewing. Different wheels on my bike completely change the way it rides, with one set of wheels it rides harsh, the other it rides great. Same with air pressure and tires. 
The fact that some guy can weld together off the shelf alloy tubing with little to no engineering and make a world class bike ( I have a classic DeRosa and it is just this) kind of proves the fact that the frame/fork, nor the addition of disc brakes isn't the biggest factor in this debate. 



And again, you said they (disc bikes) "no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well", and that is just not true at all




.


----------



## SwiftSolo

OldChipper said:


> So I guess it's out of the question for the rider to realize that they're riding in the wet and start braking a little sooner so as to give the pads a couple of revolutions to squeegee the water off the rim? Or used KoolStop Salmon pads on Aluminum rims? Both options have served me and many others very well in the past. And speaking of the Faustian bargain, I don't know why anyone would trade the downsides of discs for the exceedingly small percentage of times they descend mountain passes in the wet.



The thing about mountain riding is that it often snows a lot during the winter. Riders usually avoid riding in those conditions when they can because the roads are icy and only plowed to the fog lines. In the late spring and summer, that snow tends to melt on warm sunny days and randomly run across the roads, bringing with it the grit from road sanding. 

You are correct that if you know you have this mixture on your rims you can apply the brakes very early to dry them off. While you're doing this your disc brake riding partners/competitors will be charging past you since they know that their brakes will respond the same as they do in dry conditions and will accurately provide braking power consistent with lever pressure through the entire deceleration--quite different from what you are experiencing with your rim brakes.

As has been pointed out to you numerous times by those of us who have transitioned from rim to disc brakes, the downsides are 95% a figment of your imagination and the upside is the smashing of personal bests on descents. 

Regarding the downside: If I pee before starting a climb it will more than compensate for the additional weight of disc brakes. As for wind tunnel testing, I've pointed out on several occasions the fallacy of aero testing on riderless bikes. Those doing the testing know that to be true but hope that those reading the results don't.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Aside from the fact that I've had quite a few bikes over more than 25 years of years riding, comparing two frame/forks that are the same make and model, one with rim brakes and one with disc is a far more relevant point of reference than say, comparing a Pinarello rim brake bike to a BMC disc brake bike and then declaring it's the disc brakes that make the BMC more harsh
> 
> There are so many variables in what affects the way a bike feels and handles that you cannot just make the claims you are spewing. Different wheels on my bike completely change the way it rides, with one set of wheels it rides harsh, the other it rides great. Same with air pressure and tires.
> The fact that some guy can weld together off the shelf alloy tubing with little to no engineering and make a world class bike ( I have a classic DeRosa and it is just this) kind of proves the fact that the frame/fork, nor the addition of disc brakes isn't the biggest factor in this debate.
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you said they (disc bikes) "no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well", and that is just not true at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


It is a fact that no disc fork can deflect the way a good rim fork can. Call Wound Up, Enve, Look, whoever and ask them. It is not a complicated idea.


And your Derosa rides well because he didn't invent what he built. That frame is the result of decades of refinement in tube dimensions and geometry. It is not a piece of plumbing, and this example demonstrates how little you understand about how road bicycles work and have evolved.


----------



## exracer

Kontact said:


> How about the fact that frame and fork have to be beefed up to where they no longer absorb bumps or hold the pavement as well?


Yeah, that's what I noticed about the disc equipped Tarmac I rode. It was bouncing and hopping all over place. I could barely keep it under control. I felt like I was in a Simpson's episode where the bus goes out of control, crashes and burst into flames.

NOT, where do people come up with this stuff? 

In reality as far as bump absorption I can compare the to 3 bikes all with rim brakes and aluminum wheels. The Tarmac had carbon wheels

Compared to my Abici Vader (aluminum/ cf), the Tarmac was slightly better at damping out road buzz.

Compared to the Guerciotti Cartesio (cf) I used to own, The Tarmac's ride was definitely inferior. The Guerciotti's ride was smooth as glass.

Compared to my Scapin Hysak (cf) I would rate them as similar. You would have to ride back to back. 

As far as road holding problems, there were none. In my personal experience your positions just burst into flames. Like a vast right wing conspiracy


----------



## Kontact

exracer said:


> Yeah, that's what I noticed about the disc equipped Tarmac I rode. It was bouncing and hopping all over place. I could barely keep it under control. I felt like I was in a Simpson's episode where the bus goes out of control, crashes and burst into flames.
> 
> NOT, where do people come up with this stuff?
> 
> In reality as far as bump absorption I can compare the to 3 bikes all with rim brakes and aluminum wheels. The Tarmac had carbon wheels
> 
> Compared to my Abici Vader (aluminum/ cf), the Tarmac was slightly better at damping out road buzz.
> 
> Compared to the Guerciotti Cartesio (cf) I used to own, The Tarmac's ride was definitely inferior. The Guerciotti's ride was smooth as glass.
> 
> Compared to my Scapin Hysak (cf) I would rate them as similar. You would have to ride back to back.
> 
> As far as road holding problems, there were none. In my personal experience your positions just burst into flames. Like a vast right wing conspiracy


Your post suggests you and mopho have missed the "as well" part.

Reread and try again.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> It is a fact that no disc fork can deflect the way a good rim fork can. Call Wound Up, Enve, Look, whoever and ask them. It is not a complicated idea.


Is it a fact? Because your "evidence" you posted earlier doesn't support you. LOL 
But I am sure I can call those companies and get marketing speak to prove either position 




> And your Derosa rides well because he didn't invent what he built. That frame is the result of decades of refinement in tube dimensions and geometry. It is not a piece of plumbing, and this example demonstrates how little you understand about how road bicycles work and have evolved.



It's still off the shelf tubing that does not compare to the amount of design and manipulation that goes into carbon bikes, for which as I mentioned earlier that if it even mattered, I am sure they can engineer to make up for any differences the addition of disc brakes make, you know, because bike engineering has evolved, right?

And if I'm honest, the DeRosa rides and handles like crap compared to my disc bike 



But hey, I'm sure you put many miles on the disc brake road bike you own to make you such an authority 


.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> They can and do provide a great range of ride characteristics, and people can tell them apart. But the the best road disc forks ride nothing like best riding road rim forks. They can't - hub braking is too hard on flexible rim forks and they break.


I think you continue to overlook the relative importance of what makes a bike fast and comfortable to ride. 

I have a pair of wheels with unidirectional carbon spokes and aluminum rims that I promise will make any race worthy road bike you have a rough riding piece of crap unless you reduce the tire pressure well below recommended pressure.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> Your post suggests you and mopho have missed the "as well" part.
> 
> Reread and try again.



Your "not as well" part in real life is so minuscule a difference, if at all, that it is not even worth mentioning unless you are trying to be argumentative.... 


.



.


----------



## Maelochs

Every post in this thread: What I like is what everyone should realize is better than whatever they like.

My favorite color is faster.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> Right. Let's make bikes faster and more able by using 30c tires.


You'd do well to do your homework on recent tire size and pressure research on road surfaces instead of the traditional steel cylinders. Maybe not 30mm but 25 or 27 with far lower pressure than thought practical/fast before.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Is it a fact? Because your "evidence" you posted earlier doesn't support you. LOL
> But I am sure I can call those companies and get marketing speak to prove either position
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's still off the shelf tubing that does not compare to the amount of design and manipulation that goes into carbon bikes, for which as I mentioned earlier that if it even mattered, I am sure they can engineer to make up for any differences the addition of disc brakes make, you know, because bike engineering has evolved, right?
> 
> And if I'm honest, the DeRosa rides and handles like crap compared to my disc bike
> 
> 
> 
> But hey, I'm sure you put many miles on the disc brake road bike you own to make you such an authority
> 
> 
> .


Yes, that's a fact.

It is also a fact that a Derosa is made of bicycle specific butted tubing, not pipe. That "off the shelf" tubeset was designed for bicycles of certain sizes and rider weight, just like a carbon fork is.

What your argument about carbon forks misses is where the fork or bike is going to make up for a loss of movement in the fork legs. Is it going to happen in the steerer tube? Either a fork can flex or it can't. It is a very simple device.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> I think you continue to overlook the relative importance of what makes a bike fast and comfortable to ride.
> 
> I have a pair of wheels with unidirectional carbon spokes and aluminum rims that I promise will make any race worthy road bike you have a rough riding piece of crap unless you reduce the tire pressure well below recommended pressure.


I'm not overlooking it, the disc folks are by overlooking the importance of a fork by saying you can just buy some fat tires. Either a frame and fork are a welcome part of a layered suspension system or we've all been fooling ourselves for decades by not simply using oversized aluminum for forks. 

How many reviews of road bicycles have lauded great ride qualities? Are you saying it was all just BS because they should have just used ultrastiff bikes and different wheels or tires?




> You'd do well to do your homework on recent tire size and pressure research on road surfaces instead of the traditional steel cylinders. Maybe not 30mm but 25 or 27 with far lower pressure than thought practical/fast before.


Which is what I said in post #204.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Your "not as well" part in real life is so minuscule a difference, if at all, that it is not even worth mentioning unless you are trying to be argumentative....
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> .


Oh really? How minuscule? I posted the Damon Rinard article, not because I agree with every conclusion, but because he quantifies how specific, well known forks move under load. You are free to post the same sort of data.


----------



## Kontact

Maelochs said:


> Every post in this thread: What I like is what everyone should realize is better than whatever they like.
> 
> My favorite color is faster.


This is neither fair nor true. A lot of debate isn't about whether one brake is better than another but what factors should even be considered.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> Yes, that's a fact.
> 
> It is also a fact that a Derosa is made of bicycle specific butted tubing, not pipe. That "off the shelf" tubeset was designed for bicycles of certain sizes and rider weight, just like a carbon fork is.
> 
> What your argument about carbon forks misses is where the fork or bike is going to make up for a loss of movement in the fork legs. Is it going to happen in the steerer tube? Either a fork can flex or it can't. It is a very simple device.


You continue to equate flex with fragility. Carbon and its' epoxy matrix can be manipulated with far greater precision than metal extrusions. 

On the other hand, the point of debate regarding the contribution of modern bike fork flex to overall ride characteristics is mostly irrelevant on race bikes except in the margin.


----------



## SPlKE

Maelochs said:


> Every post in this thread: What I like is what everyone should realize is better than whatever they like.
> 
> My favorite color is faster.


I'll be the judge of that.

What's your favorite color?


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> You continue to equate flex with fragility. Carbon and its' epoxy matrix can be manipulated with far greater precision than metal extrusions.
> 
> On the other hand, the point of debate regarding the contribution of modern bike fork flex to overall ride characteristics is mostly irrelevant on race bikes except in the margin.


I'm not equating flex with fragility. You could make a very flexible disc fork, but the great difference in the loading between rider weight and braking load means that if it was flexible to absorb bumps it would be too flexible to keep the wheel's position under braking loads. You don't want to ride a rubber fork.

The other problem is the rider loading and break loading take place in opposite directions. Bumps cause forks to flex up and forward, disc braking flexes the fork to the rear.


What you say is irrelevant was of great interest to both racers and sport riders in years past. People discussed and continue to discuss the merits of how frames and forks (rather than tires) ride. It is a real thing.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> Oh really? How minuscule? I posted the Damon Rinard article, not because I agree with every conclusion, but because he quantifies how specific, well known forks move under load. You are free to post the same sort of data.


I never said forks don't move under load, I am saying you are speculating and exaggerating the difference that beefing up the fork for disc makes to the ride and and handling. You have not proven that disc makes a significant difference to the ride and handling, let alone a difference that a rider could notice. Additionally, we are talking about stiff bikes to begin with, the amount of bump absorption from flex is minimal, it's vibration dampening that is important.
While you may be able to point to engineering that can measure such change, it would be unlikely that a rider could determine that any _perceived_ ride difference is specifically coming from the added disc bracing because there are too many variables involved. Not only would you need to ride the exact same disc/rim frames/forks back to back, but you would need the same wheels, tires, bars, stem, tape, etc.. Given the fact that you can't get the exact same wheels between rim and disc brake it would render any attempt at comparing moot. Changing between my wheel sets drastically changes the ride characteristic of my bike, so how would you know that your "deteriorated" ride quality is not due to the wheels (or the tires, or the difference in spoke type/count, etc.)? 
Not to mention ride quality is subjective. I find the Enves on my bike to be harsh and a friend of mine has the same wheels on his bike (same as mine) and thinks they ride great. The difference between a narrow rim and a wide rim changes the way a tire sits on the rim and affects how the bike rides too. 
So yes, again, your attempt at dismissing disc brakes because of your claimed ride and handling deterioration is BS. .


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> I never said forks don't move under load, I am saying you are speculating and exaggerating the difference that beefing up the fork for disc makes to the ride and and handling. You have not proven that disc makes a significant difference to the ride and handling, let alone a difference that a rider could notice. Additionally, we are talking about stiff bikes to begin with, the amount of bump absorption from flex is minimal, it's vibration dampening that is important.
> While you may be able to point to engineering that can measure such change, it would be unlikely that a rider could determine that any _perceived_ ride difference is specifically coming from the added disc bracing because there are too many variables involved. Not only would you need to ride the exact same disc/rim frames/forks back to back, but you would need the same wheels, tires, bars, stem, tape, etc.. Given the fact that you can't get the exact same wheels between rim and disc brake it would render any attempt at comparing moot. Changing between my wheel sets drastically changes the ride characteristic of my bike, so how would you know that your "deteriorated" ride quality is not due to the wheels (or the tires, or the difference in spoke type/count, etc.)?
> Not to mention ride quality is subjective. I find the Enves on my bike to be harsh and a friend of mine has the same wheels on his bike (same as mine) and thinks they ride great. The difference between a narrow rim and a wide rim changes the way a tire sits on the rim and affects how the bike rides too.
> So yes, again, your attempt at dismissing disc brakes because of your claimed ride and handling deterioration is BS. .


I look forward to you quantifying any of that.


----------



## Maelochs

I have two disc bikes, four rim brake .... two steel forks, the rest CF.

Three run 23s, two run 28s, one is an MTB.

When I want comfort, I go for the all-steel on 23s and when I want luxurious comfort I go for the Al-framed, CF-forked, mech disc bike with 28s. Even with narrower Hutchinson Fusion 5s (as opposed to Conti Supersports, which are Balloons) the fat tires give a softer ride.

I don't worry about the fork ... I care about the overall ride.

I enjoy it. Sorry.

Next two bikes will likely be CF with discs and Ti with rims ... not sure. I Am sure I will enjoy the bladder excretions out of riding them once they are chosen, all the parts selected, collected, assembled, and tuned.

I will not "quantify" fork flex on any of them. Can I still be a cyclist?

What is my favorite color"? I told you .. faster than yours.

(Say ... what is the quant of fork flexure? a "bend-over-backward-to-win-a-debate-acon", maybe?)


----------



## Kontact

Maelochs said:


> I have two disc bikes, four rim brake .... two steel forks, the rest CF.
> 
> Three run 23s, two run 28s, one is an MTB.
> 
> When I want comfort, I go for the all-steel on 23s and when I want luxurious comfort I go for the Al-framed, CF-forked, mech disc bike with 28s. Even with narrower Hutchinson Fusion 5s (as opposed to Conti Supersports, which are Balloons) the fat tires give a softer ride.
> 
> I don't worry about the fork ... I care about the overall ride.
> 
> I enjoy it. Sorry.
> 
> Next two bikes will likely be CF with discs and Ti with rims ... not sure. I Am sure I will enjoy the bladder excretions out of riding them once they are chosen, all the parts selected, collected, assembled, and tuned.
> 
> I will not "quantify" fork flex on any of them. Can I still be a cyclist?
> 
> What is my favorite color"? I told you .. faster than yours.
> 
> (Say ... what is the quant of fork flexure? a "bend-over-backward-to-win-a-debate-acon", maybe?)


I guess I have to restate what I said earlier: I don't care what anyone rides. The only "debate" is whether "road racing bikes", which have both a cultural and strict UCI definition, are better with discs and all the modifications that go with discs or are better equipped with some sort of rim brake.

What's "better"? For a stage racing bike, the ability to sustain maximum speed over a hilly or mountainous 100 mile course.

If either rigid frames or fat tires and extra weight with superior wet braking produce better course times than traditional road bikes, than the UCI switching will make sense. And if the UCI switches, that's the end of rim brakes for road racing style bikes because Shimano and Campy aren't going to keep making parts that can't be used in sanctioned racing. Same thing that made all the "funny bikes" disappear in the '90s.

For those of us who really like the way current road bikes work, this prospect has little allure. 

Otherwise, everyone is free to ride their hybrids, MTBs, beach cruisers, cross, touring, fixie whatever wherever they want. No one minds your bike, we just don't want your new favorite gizmo to destroy ours.


----------



## ceugene

As long as the UCI minimum weight limit remains 6.8kg, then it's more likely you'll see disc road bikes in the pro peloton, especially on mountain stages with multiple climbs and descents. The Emonda SLR Disc can already hit that weight with a fairly standard assortment of DA Di2, tubular carbon rims, carbon cockpits, etc. It's the aero bikes that 1) have trouble hitting the lower weight limit and 2) are used on flatter stages where braking isn't as crucial.

The "Trek World" dealer summit was held this past week. Trek seems to think the coming year will be critical mass for the adoption of disc road and that dealers should be prepared for it by ordering way more disc models to keep in-store.

My take on the subject is if one is so rigidly opposed to owning a disc road bike, they will always still have options. If the reduced options aren't enough then you'll just have to reevaluate your priorities. Shimano and Campy aren't going to stop making rim brake calipers or cable brifters for a long, long time.


----------



## Maelochs

Kontact said:


> Otherwise, everyone is free to ride their hybrids, MTBs, beach cruisers, cross, touring, fixie whatever wherever they want. No one minds your bike, we just don't want your new favorite gizmo to destroy ours.


 First off, you're a snob.

I ride road bikes .... I just don't race. And your bikes are not more important than anyone else's. You call 28 mm fat tires? Join the present ... I hear it leads to the future ... oh, you're afraid of that.

Your fear that rim brakes will disappear seems excessive .... and your desire to blame others for your fears is singularly unattractive. 

I don't have a "favorite gizmo." I have a bunch of bikes.

No one minds "our" bikes .... how generous of you guys on the "real" bikes.

I would really have mourned it if the major manufacturers had phased out rim brakes ... but from now on I will think of this post and be glad.

By the way .... 



Kontact said:


> What's "better"? For a stage racing bike, the ability to sustain maximum speed over a hilly or mountainous 100 mile course.


 This statement proves you are entirely ignorant of the basics of stage racing.

Think about it some.


----------



## Rashadabd

Team Aqua Blue Sport's new team bikes for 2018:

Aqua Blue Sport unveil 3T Strada for 2018 - BikeRadar

We're about to find some things out I guess.


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> Otherwise, everyone is free to ride their hybrids, MTBs, beach cruisers, cross, touring, fixie whatever wherever they want. No one minds your bike, *we just don't want your new favorite gizmo to destroy ours*.


Huh? This makes absolutely no sense. Are you that fragile that you fear "we" will destroy "you"? Do you need a hug?


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> Than ride your 35mm tires. Just don't be surprised that everyone else doesn't feel that is a good bargain for better wet riding brakes.
> 
> 
> This is a road bike/road racing bike topic. No one is saying that MTBs or gravel bikes shouldn't have disc brakes. The argument really comes down to what is the best way of making a bike designed to go as fast as possible on pavement. And that means skinnier tires, light weight, vibration management and predictability. Road bikes are at the extreme end of cycling, and suggesting that we could all just ride our MTBs with slick tires installed misses the point of owning and riding a nice road machine.


This statement seriously smacks of elitism. The term "road bike" encompasses a broad range of bikes intended for road riding including race bikes, endurance bikes, time trial bikes etc. The statement "road bikes are at the extreme end of cycling" is a grossly inaccurate statement. 

Further more, making a bike faster than another bike is a law of diminishing returns. To say "Why not just put slicks on your mountain bike?" further proves your ignorance on this point. Of course just about any road bike will be noticeably faster than a mountain bike donned with slicks. In case you haven't noticed, gravel bikes have very similar geometry and only a very slightly longer wheelbase than endurance bikes. They handle much more like a road bike than a mountain bike and are much closer to the speed of a road bike than that of a mountain bike.

And your statement about skinnier tires, light weight, vibration management and predictability are also debatable. Skinnier tires will be faster in a perfect world scenario of newly paved glass-smooth roads. In the real world of road surface imperfection or more so in the case of the crappy roads in my area, skinny tires will be slower as there will be more suspension losses. "Vibration management and predictability" as you put it, are addressed quite well by the greatest source of compliance on your bike......***drumroll please***.....WIDER TIRES! And don't even get me started on weight. Do you really think a 16lb. bike will make you that much faster than an 18lb. bike? If you do, you may want to save some $$ and lose 2lbs. off the engine.


----------



## aclinjury

Just wanna say, haven't seen Kontact posted here for a while, but boy he comes back in vengence firing on all cylinders! (that's a compliment, good to see you again Kontact)


----------



## exracer

Kontact said:


> Your post suggests you and mopho have missed the "as well" part.
> 
> Reread and try again.


Well I was looking at your "the beefed up the frame and fork to where they don't absorb bumps or hold the road as well?"; as not well as rim brake bikes. I guess you were saying "as well as their other deficiencies"? I mean that is the only two ways to take it from my point of view.

You mean that weight/aerodynamic nonsense? 

I gave you 3 example where a disc equipped Tarmac didn't ride significantly worse. The only place where it was noticeable was in comparison to the Guerciotti and I guarantee you the Tarmac will ride better than my 92 Paramount OS (yeah yeah steel is real, blardy blardy blar). As far as hold the road, it wasn't any better or worse than any other bike I have owned (Guerciotti- SL/SP mix, Rossin-same, Medici-Reynolds tubing?) 

As far as weight, what? 200 grams difference. Go out and ride, loose half a pound, there you go or dump half a water bottle out. That is more than 200 grams. 

As far as aerodynamics you are going to go just as fast. You are going to loose a few watts due to additional drag but it's not like you are going to be dragging a parachute around. You wont be saying " I used to be able to do 33mph on this stretch of road. Now I can only 10.5mph on this disc equipped bike".

See I've ridden both types of bikes and it seems like you haven't ridden a disc equipped bike, why don't you go out and ride one 20-30 miles and then get back to me.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> I guess I have to restate what I said earlier: I don't care what anyone rides. The only "debate" is whether "road racing bikes", which have both a cultural and strict UCI definition, are better with discs and all the modifications that go with discs or are better equipped with some sort of rim brake.
> 
> What's "better"? *For a stage racing bike, the ability to sustain maximum speed over a hilly or mountainous 100 mile course.*
> 
> If either rigid frames or fat tires and extra weight with superior wet braking produce better course times than traditional road bikes, than the UCI switching will make sense. And if the UCI switches, that's the end of rim brakes for road racing style bikes because Shimano and Campy aren't going to keep making parts that can't be used in sanctioned racing. Same thing that made all the "funny bikes" disappear in the '90s.
> 
> For those of us who really like the way current road bikes work, this prospect has little allure.
> 
> Otherwise, everyone is free to ride their hybrids, MTBs, beach cruisers, cross, touring, fixie whatever wherever they want.* No one minds your bike, we just don't want your new favorite gizmo to destroy ours*.


Well stated Kontact. Keep in mind who your audience is here bro. Guess who love massive braking at the 'exclusion of all the other bike qualities' conducive to speed that differentiate rim and disc brake bikes and why pros and better amateur riders prefer rim brakes. Don't expect them to get it. I explained it all previously and it went over the head of the collective here. Your fork stiffness comments and will add rear triangle stiffness due to disc brakes is undeniably true. I love the counter argument of running less aero and heavier wider tires to compensate.

Keep up the good fight until you grow weary of explaining physics that better riders know to be fact.


----------



## Maelochs

Lol ... nothing like reinforcing delusions .... 

here's some info you guys cannot grasp:

"Better" doesn't even necessarily riding or owning a bike.

"Best" is purely subjective.

But as for physics ... yeah, do some research. Those "heavier, less aero" tires ... those wider softer tires ... Are demonstrably quicker on actual roads than super-hard, superskinny tires.

Sorry you guys are stuck in the past.


----------



## Rashadabd

You guys should race instead of pontificating back and forth. That's how the triathlon came about. One big debate was finally settled "on the field of play." Then you can clarify whether the "super skilled" rim brake rider on the reportedly lighter and faster rim brake equipped bike can beat the "better equipped" disc brake rider with access to wider tires, better modulation, and braking. Choose a course with plenty of climbs and descents, twisty corners and flats, train for it, and go head to head. Don't talk about it, be about it. A number of people in here suggest they have serious skills and that one system is an advantage over the other, so prove it all. My guess is it comes down to who has better fitness (FTP), bike fit/aerodynamics, and bike handling skills, which just proves all of this bickering about brake types is waaaay too much. 

Well, here's a way to find out if any of this even really matters. :idea:


----------



## Rashadabd

Another friendly reminder that none of this is as significant as some of you are making it out to be. It's still bike riding/bike racing at the end of the day.


----------



## Rashadabd

"Brought to you in association with your noncycling partner or spouse." 

"Disc brakes are better and we're not going to pretend they're not...."


----------



## ceugene

"But muh rim brakes" is a stawman and always has been.

There is no evidence or logistical reason for rim-brake race frames and the component groups that support them to disappear overnight. It'll probably take a decade or more for Shimano, SRAM and Campy to stop making their best groups with those options. Even if they did stop making new groups with rim brake options, you'd still have access to perfectly usable groups from generations past. Besides, the new groups will have too many "gizmos" for rim-brake stalwarts anyway.

Custom framebuilders will still exist. Specific rim-brake models will still exist. The prototypical buyer who demands all the flash of the latest frame and component technology, but won't accept disc-brakes...that's a niche segment if there ever was one.

Why blame disc-brakes for something that hasn't happened yet, that won't happen for a long time. Why the fear-mongering?


----------



## 11spd

ceugene said:


> "But muh rim brakes" is a stawman and always has been.
> 
> There is no evidence or logistical reason for rim-brake race frames and the component groups that support them to disappear overnight. It'll probably take a decade or more for Shimano, SRAM and Campy to stop making their best groups with those options. Even if they did stop making new groups with rim brake options, you'd still have access to perfectly usable groups from generations past. Besides, the new groups will have too many "gizmos" for rim-brake stalwarts anyway.
> 
> Custom framebuilders will still exist. Specific rim-brake models will still exist. The prototypical buyer who demands all the flash of the latest frame and component technology, but won't accept disc-brakes...that's a niche segment if there ever was one.
> 
> Why blame disc-brakes for something that hasn't happened yet, that won't happen for a long time. Why the fear-mongering?


There is no fear of rim brakes going away. Tarmac rim brake bikes this year will probably outsell heavier and less aero disc brake bikes 5 to 1? Why? Because pretty much all top riders and good amateurs prefer rim brakes. Go to a pro race and see for yourself.

Basically this debate can be divided into go fast versus 'smell the roses' road bike users. Of course the objective of each group is different. If not trying to ride the fastest you can for your given fitness level, why not ride a disc brake bike? Of course. But for those that want the fastest machine, its the lighter and more aero rim brake bike. Not that complicated really.


----------



## ceugene

11spd said:


> There is no fear of rim brakes going away. Tarmac rim brake bikes this year will probably outsell heavier and less aero disc brake bikes 5 to 1? Why? Because pretty much all top riders and good amateurs prefer rim brakes. Go to a pro race and see for yourself.
> 
> Basically this debate can e divided into the go fast versus 'smell the roses' road bike users. If not trying to ride the fastest you can for your given fitness, why not ride a disc brake bike? Of course. But for those that want the fastest machine, its the lighter and more aero rim brake bike. Not that complicated really.


Kontact's earlier reply describes the fear of his preferred style of bike disappearing as soon as the pros adopt disc-brakes en masse.

And when more bikes like the Emonda SLR Disc hit the UCI minimum weight, but have advantages on stages with multiple climbs? You already saw two Trek-Segafredo riders using the disc Emondas at the Colorado Classic.

It's the pros with their arbitrary weight limitations that see the LEAST benefit from staying on rim-brakes.

But yes, I'll go to pro races in the coming years and see for myself. At Trek World last week, they already hinted at the tipping point being this season. We'll see.


----------



## ceugene

Repost of what I wrote in the Tarmac Disc thread:

https://youtu.be/2iYYLhtDHpg

Reactions in this 2015 video range from “It needs to be tested” to “they’re ugly” to “everyone needs to switch at the same time” to “it wil be better for heat management and safer in the rain” to “I don’t think they look bad.” 

https://youtu.be/xvWBwhpml5w

More indifference in this video. About the strongest negative opinion was that rim brakes with carbon tubs are adequate, and that the UCI needs a concrete ruling on the legality of disc brakes. Owain Doull’s shoe was mentioned, but as we know that damage was almost surely not caused by a rotor.

Doesn't seem like pros "prefer rim brakes" to me. When GCN undoubtedly recycles the topic for a 2018 video, what do you think the responses will be like then?


----------



## Kontact

Maelochs said:


> First off, you're a snob.
> 
> I ride road bikes .... I just don't race. And your bikes are not more important than anyone else's. You call 28 mm fat tires? Join the present ... I hear it leads to the future ... oh, you're afraid of that.
> 
> Your fear that rim brakes will disappear seems excessive .... and your desire to blame others for your fears is singularly unattractive.
> 
> I don't have a "favorite gizmo." I have a bunch of bikes.
> 
> No one minds "our" bikes .... how generous of you guys on the "real" bikes.
> 
> I would really have mourned it if the major manufacturers had phased out rim brakes ... but from now on I will think of this post and be glad.
> 
> By the way ....


First off, there is no reason for insults.


Second, I don't know what you're talking about. I keep saying that my interest is in one sort of bike and that sort of bike remaining in its familiar form because that form works so very well. Outside of "road racing bikes" or "road bikes" as they are commonly called, it does not matter whether any of the traditionally stiffer framed touring, commuting, CX, gravel, etc bikes shift to disc. All those bikes already shifted brake types several times in their histories, and the center mount caliper brake is only found on road racing bikes today and some close cousins.


I called 28c tires fat? Quote me.

"Real bikes"? Quote me.



> This statement proves you are entirely ignorant of the basics of stage racing.
> 
> Think about it some.


And this statement proves that you are unable to discuss something about inanimate objects without resorting to insults. If you would like to correct my shorthand summary of the point of road racing bikes, do that instead of posting put downs. Okay?


----------



## Kontact

exracer said:


> Well I was looking at your "the beefed up the frame and fork to where they don't absorb bumps or hold the road as well?"; as not well as rim brake bikes. I guess you were saying "as well as their other deficiencies"? I mean that is the only two ways to take it from my point of view.
> 
> You mean that weight/aerodynamic nonsense?
> 
> I gave you 3 example where a disc equipped Tarmac didn't ride significantly worse. The only place where it was noticeable was in comparison to the Guerciotti and I guarantee you the Tarmac will ride better than my 92 Paramount OS (yeah yeah steel is real, blardy blardy blar). As far as hold the road, it wasn't any better or worse than any other bike I have owned (Guerciotti- SL/SP mix, Rossin-same, Medici-Reynolds tubing?)
> 
> As far as weight, what? 200 grams difference. Go out and ride, loose half a pound, there you go or dump half a water bottle out. That is more than 200 grams.
> 
> As far as aerodynamics you are going to go just as fast. You are going to loose a few watts due to additional drag but it's not like you are going to be dragging a parachute around. You wont be saying " I used to be able to do 33mph on this stretch of road. Now I can only 10.5mph on this disc equipped bike".
> 
> See I've ridden both types of bikes and it seems like you haven't ridden a disc equipped bike, why don't you go out and ride one 20-30 miles and then get back to me.


I've ridden every kind of bike.

And you did misunderstand. I was saying that the very best "compliant" traditional road bike will absorb road vibrations better than the very best compliant disc bike when using similar wheels and tires. With wider tires the disc bike will absorb just as much vibration, but at the cost of higher rolling resistance.


I should say that I am a huge fan of the tremendous development that road bike frames and forks have gone through since I started riding seriously in the '80s. EL tubesets, Nivachrom, Vitus frames, SR Prism forks, TVT, Klein, Slingshot, Carbon frames, Litespeed, Look, Kestrel, OCLV - these were all revelations at the time. It wasn't just that bikes were getting lighter - they were testing newfound qualities in suppleness that made the traditional road bike more comfortable and efficient at the same time. I'm not being nostalgic - I experienced the difference that a flexible aluminum and later carbon fork could bring to even a basic aluminum bike. It would be sad to see all that largely go away to accommodate hub braking forces.


----------



## 11spd

ceugene said:


> Repost of what I wrote in the Tarmac Disc thread:
> 
> https://youtu.be/2iYYLhtDHpg
> 
> Reactions in this 2015 video range from “It needs to be tested” to “they’re ugly” to “everyone needs to switch at the same time” to “it wil be better for heat management and safer in the rain” to “I don’t think they look bad.”
> 
> https://youtu.be/xvWBwhpml5w
> 
> More indifference in this video. About the strongest negative opinion was that rim brakes with carbon tubs are adequate, and that the UCI needs a concrete ruling on the legality of disc brakes. Owain Doull’s shoe was mentioned, but as we know that damage was almost surely not caused by a rotor.
> 
> Doesn't seem like pros "prefer rim brakes" to me. When GCN undoubtedly recycles the topic for a 2018 video, what do you think the responses will be like then?


Pro's don't overwhelmingly prefer rim brakes?  Huh? 98% of all pro riders are on rim brakes. A little secret to share....keep this between just us. Disc brakes are allowed. I know hard to tell.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> Pro's don't overwhelmingly prefer rim brakes? Huh? 98% of all pro riders are on rim brakes. A little secret to share....keep this between just us. Disc brakes are allowed. I know hard to tell.


Only Freds base their purchases on what pros ride 


.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Only Freds base their purchases on what pros ride


No...only Fred's place the priority of nth degree braking (discs) over speed (rim brakes). 

You have a lot of company since you turn a blind eye to what the best in the world ride. You know, guys that demand the best possible performance from the bike. A quick sharing of one anecdote. I had a long talk with aunt Maybell about her preference....where you glean your insight from because pros can't possibly be relevant. She loves the security of her disk brake bike in spite of it always squealing. It makes her more comfortable knowing she has monsta braking to save her from the big bad wolf she euphemistically refers to as crashing which of course spoils her hairdo. She said disc brakes are like her security blanket. Yes, her disk bike feels a bit more sluggish but that's OK. She isn't all about speed and in fact, rarely tries to pedal hard because she told me it tires her out for the rest of the day. What good is that? She did tell me she needed a bigger cassette to make it up her favorite climb however but went on to tell me, hey, that's what gears are for which is hard to argue with. She has to leave a bit earlier to make her Bingo game tho.

Your performance cost benefit analysis? Sorry, fail...lol.


----------



## M-theory

I think it's important to realize that there's more than just 'road'bikes' to consider. Some of us would also like a light, and fast endurance bike, with a relaxed geometry that still accelerates quickly with 'fast' wheels and is under 20 lbs. But that bike has become a dying breed. Disc brakes have added needless weight to every sort of endurance, gravel and cyclocross bike available. Cantilevers are gone. 

So now, if you want a non-racing bike that isn't heavy, you're going to have spend thousands extra on the high-end components to compensate for the disc weight. And since nobody wants the awful mechanical disc, an entry level hydro-disc bike now STARTS at around $3000. You'll need to spend even MORE if you want a respectable weight. So the bottom line, the prices of non-racing bikes have gone up by thousands of dollars if one wants to get the same weight and performance as what was available just a few years ago.


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Pro's don't overwhelmingly prefer rim brakes? Huh? 98% of all pro riders are on rim brakes. A little secret to share....keep this between just us. Disc brakes are allowed. I know hard to tell.


You are overstating and overemphasizing this point by a country mile. Neutral support, reserve wheels, having teammates on the same system so they can share wheels, etc. is the problem not preference. I know you are intelligent enough to know what you're doing by equating current use with preference. It's not true. I have posted a link with results of a survey that tells you what pros actually prefer. What we are seeing with Aqua Blue next season is the first real test of a complete team systematically planning and using disc brakes fully for a season with pro level testing and agreements behind them. Let's see how it goes and stop playing games with words. I agree that what pros ride doesn't matter much, but let's accurately state their preference if we are going to talk about it please. Quote the survey results of you want to hang your hat on this. Again, at the end of the day, none of this matters a whole lot and that's what I think we will ultimately see.


----------



## ceugene

11spd said:


> Pro's don't overwhelmingly prefer rim brakes? Huh? 98% of all pro riders are on rim brakes. A little secret to share....keep this between just us. Disc brakes are allowed. I know hard to tell.


There are many factors at play.

1) The logistics of carrying spare equipment/parts for a roster’s worth of both rim-brake and disc-brake bikes.
2) Vocal dissent by a small, but vocal minority...Owain Doull for example.
3) Inertia. The incumbent technology has an inherent advantage here.
4) Unclear ruling by the UCI. Disc bikes are still just provisionally allowed as part of an extended testing period.

I’m sure there are more big reasons that currently escape me.

In a vacuum, rider preference is probably NOT the reason why disc bikes don’t dominate the peloton. They are clearly a mix of mostly supportive and indifferent with a few dissenters. They realize it’s the near future, probably the next two years where disc becomes the norm.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

M-theory said:


> And since nobody wants the awful mechanical disc, an entry level hydro-disc bike now STARTS at around $3000. You'll need to spend even MORE if you want a respectable weight. So the bottom line, the prices of non-racing bikes have gone up by thousands of dollars if one wants to get the same weight and performance as what was available just a few years ago.


was the case for mtn bike hydros 20 years ago too though. now every mtn bike over $700 has hydro discs. there are some cheap ways to save weight too (google videos on how to build a 15 lb bike for cheap), but I am betting we'll see sram and shimano developing lighter kit in Red and DA going forward.


----------



## ceugene

BCSaltchucker said:


> was the case for mtn bike hydros 20 years ago too though. now every mtn bike over $700 has hydro discs. there are some cheap ways to save weight too (google videos on how to build a 15 lb bike for cheap), but I am betting we'll see sram and shimano developing lighter kit in Red and DA going forward.


My set-up last year was TRP Spyre SLCs, SRAM Centerline X rotors, Jagwire Elite Link compressionless cable housing.

My set-up this year is full eTap HRD with the same rotors.

Honestly the difference in feel is minimal. The lever needs slightly more effort to pull initially, but once the pad contacts the rotor they feel the same.

The major difference is automatic pad adjustment and contact-point adjustment, but it really wasn't a big deal for me to just add a 1/8th turn to each side of the Spyre caliper pad adjustment bolt every few weeks either.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> No...only Fred's place the priority of nth degree braking (discs) over speed (rim brakes).
> 
> You have a lot of company since you turn a blind eye to what the best in the world ride. You know, guys that demand the best possible performance from the bike. A quick sharing of one anecdote. I had a long talk with aunt Maybell about her preference....where you glean your insight from because pros can't possibly be relevant. She loves the security of her disk brake bike in spite of it always squealing. It makes her more comfortable knowing she has monsta braking to save her from the big bad wolf she euphemistically refers to as crashing which of course spoils her hairdo. She said disc brakes are like her security blanket. Yes, her disk bike feels a bit more sluggish but that's OK. She isn't all about speed and in fact, rarely tries to pedal hard because she told me it tires her out for the rest of the day. What good is that? She did tell me she needed a bigger cassette to make it up her favorite climb however but went on to tell me, hey, that's what gears are for which is hard to argue with. She has to leave a bit earlier to make her Bingo game tho.
> 
> Your performance cost benefit analysis? Sorry, fail...lol.





Funny story from a flatlander who thinks riding down a wheelchair ramp is scary :lol:




.


----------



## ceugene

MoPho said:


> Funny story from a flatlander who thinks riding down a wheelchair ramp is scary :lol:
> 
> .


I also find it amusing that 11spd constantly claims disc brakes squeal. Sorta like Trump constantly talking about Hillary colluding with the Russians. My disc brakes don't squeal unless I've been drafting a car too closely and the rotors pick up a lot of exhaust during a ride. And they only squeal under light braking at low speed. A quick wipe down with a baby wipe fixes that post ride.

On the other hand, you can't get rid of the sound from textured rim-brake carbon clinchers. Sounds like a missile attack every time my buddies with newer ENVEs even feather their brakes.

e: Okay okay, they can honk a bit in the wet, but who's going to argue for rim-brakes over disc-brakes in wet conditions?


----------



## MoPho

ceugene said:


> I also find it amusing that 11spd constantly claims disc brakes squeal. Sorta like Trump constantly talking about Hillary colluding with the Russians. My disc brakes don't squeal unless I've been drafting a car too closely and the rotors pick up a lot of exhaust during a ride. And they only squeal under light braking at low speed. A quick wipe down with a baby wipe fixes that post ride.
> 
> On the other hand, you can't get rid of the sound from textured rim-brake carbon clinchers. Sounds like a missile attack every time my buddies with newer ENVEs even feather their brakes.
> 
> e: Okay okay, they can honk a bit in the wet, but who's going to argue for rim-brakes over disc-brakes in wet conditions?



Yup, in fact usually it's the rim brake riders I hear with their brakes squealing coming down the hill while I am waiting at the bottom for them :lol:

I guess, 10spd heard one person with noisy disc brakes so they all must do it 

The one good thing about the space ship noise my carbon rim brake wheels made (when they weren't squealing) was that I could intimidate riders into moving out of my way on descents, now I just out brake them into corners 




.


----------



## Maelochs

Mr. Kontact ... if you think stage racing is about riding hilly or mountainous 100-mile stages at maximum speed---as you claimed---then No, you know nothing about stage racing. And if you think only your definition of "road bike" qualifies as a Real road bike ... telling the rest of us with our "Hybrids" and CX bikes that we diodn't have road bikes because we didn't have a bike which met your approval ... .. yeah, you made any number of snobbish, exclusive, unsupportable and flat incorrect statements. You are welcome not to reply.

Who was it who said this?


Kontact said:


> What's "better"? For a stage racing bike, the ability to sustain maximum speed over a hilly or mountainous 100 mile course.
> 
> For those of us who really like the way current road bikes work, this prospect has little allure.
> 
> Otherwise, everyone is free to ride their hybrids, MTBs, beach cruisers, cross, touring, fixie whatever wherever they want. No one minds your bike, we just don't want your new favorite gizmo to destroy ours.


 Oh ... that was you.

Lombard found it a bit ... off as well.


Lombard said:


> Huh? This makes absolutely no sense. Are you that fragile that you fear "we" will destroy "you"? Do you need a hug?


He also said:


Lombard said:


> This statement seriously smacks of elitism. The term "road bike" encompasses a broad range of bikes intended for road riding including race bikes, endurance bikes, time trial bikes etc. The statement "road bikes are at the extreme end of cycling" is a grossly inaccurate statement.


 But I guess you thought I was an easier target.

This is what always happens when people decide they know the actual truth of and meaning of everything.

You know what a Real road bike is, you know that skinny tires are faster (which tests have proved they are not) and you know that anyone who does nto have a bike which you consider to be “optimized” for stage racing, then their bikes are Hybrids or CX or whatever ... but not the “elite” road bikes like you ride.

Those of us with 25- or 28-mm tiers just aren’t “elite;’ enough.

You do realize thst when you self-identify as “elite” and tell most everyone else they aren’t good enough ... that is the definition of “snobbish,” right?

Do you really think people in stage races ride at max speed for the whole stage? Really?

Again, feel free not to respond.


----------



## TmB123

I weigh around 88kg and descend like a mad mother [email protected] regularly hitting 80-100kph into hairpins and junctions, my rim brakes are "sufficient" my disc brakes are awesome. If I can brake 10-20m later than everyone else over and over again, then I'm down the hill first, end of story.


----------



## Kontact

Maelochs said:


> Mr. Kontact ... if you think stage racing is about riding hilly or mountainous 100-mile stages at maximum speed---as you claimed---then No, you know nothing about stage racing. And if you think only your definition of "road bike" qualifies as a Real road bike ... telling the rest of us with our "Hybrids" and CX bikes that we diodn't have road bikes because we didn't have a bike which met your approval ... .. yeah, you made any number of snobbish, exclusive, unsupportable and flat incorrect statements. You are welcome not to reply.
> 
> Who was it who said this?
> Oh ... that was you.
> 
> Lombard found it a bit ... off as well.
> 
> 
> He also said: But I guess you thought I was an easier target.
> 
> This is what always happens when people decide they know the actual truth of and meaning of everything.
> 
> You know what a Real road bike is, you know that skinny tires are faster (which tests have proved they are not) and you know that anyone who does nto have a bike which you consider to be “optimized” for stage racing, then their bikes are Hybrids or CX or whatever ... but not the “elite” road bikes like you ride.
> 
> Those of us with 25- or 28-mm tiers just aren’t “elite;’ enough.
> 
> You do realize thst when you self-identify as “elite” and tell most everyone else they aren’t good enough ... that is the definition of “snobbish,” right?
> 
> Do you really think people in stage races ride at max speed for the whole stage? Really?
> 
> Again, feel free not to respond.


You're just an incredibly rude person who keeps failing to understand what has been patiently explained to you.

"Road bike" absolutely _is_ shorthand for "road racing bike". While you might not like that fact, it is true. That is why we don't have to call touring bikes "road touring bikes". Both are clearly bikes used primarily on paved roads, and I'm sure you realize that I know that.

So my use of the term "road bike" has nothing to do with any feelings I have about the legitimacy of any one kind of bike, but simply the language as commonly used.


Other terms you might want to be aware of lest they upset you:
"Carbon fiber" is what most people call carbon fiber matrix composites.
"Alloy" is what people call aluminum alloys.

Hopefully setting you straight on how these common terms are used will alleviate your need to be unpleasant in the future.

I ride 23c, 25c and 30c tires.


----------



## ceugene

His demeanor is aggressive because the premise of your argument is highly suspect. It’s capitalizing on the fear, uncertainty and doubt in others regarding rim-brake availability in the near-term.

Do you think rim-brake technology can be iterated much further? Even now there are compatibility issues. Newer rim-brake frames use direct mount calipers, right? Do you think the pros will be racing on tubs forever? Do you think it’s safe for the peloton to descend on full carbon clinchers and tubeless tires without disc brakes?

What’s the real advantage of a rim-brake bike to someone who isn’t encumbered by UCI weight limits? Bragging rights for who has the lightest bike mostly. Meanwhile my Emonda SLR Disc weighs 15.7lbs without really trying to get the weight down and the 1lb extra from the disc-brake accommodations is a fair trade-off for being able to blast by others who have stopped on the side of Deer Creek Rd to let their carbon rims cool.


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> You guys should race instead of pontificating back and forth.


Maybe they can't right now because they are at work.


----------



## Lombard

M-theory said:


> And since nobody wants the awful mechanical disc, *an entry level hydro-disc bike now STARTS at around $3000*. You'll need to spend even MORE if you want a respectable weight.


Incorrect! See below:

Synapse Carbon Disc 105 Cannondale Bicycles


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> You're just an incredibly rude person who keeps failing to understand what has been patiently explained to you.


It takes one to know one.  



Kontact said:


> "Road bike" absolutely _is_ shorthand for "road racing bike".


And you would be absolutely wrong.


----------



## Maelochs

Sum up a thread? 

By and large bicycles offer two options for braking systems, rim brakes and disc brakes.

But .... there are only three people in the world wise enough to choose the best option for You and every other cyclist.

It is our great good fortune that they choose to post here.

Conform! Obey!

Choice is an illusion and if you dare to try to choose for yourself ... You Are Evil.

Like everyone associated with AquaBlue. They will never make it to Heaven on their UCI-legal disc-eqipped 1X bikes. Some one needs to tell them that just because they are part of the UCI WorldTour peloton .... Those Aren't Road Bikes (by which of course, everyone understands, we mean road Racing Bikes .... with Rim brakes ..... )

And poor Marcel Kittel ... he Thinks he won a stage on a disc-equipped Venge ... but because he was riding a disc-brake-equipped bike (which was obviously too stiff to control because of the massive reinforcing needed to control braking forces---andf Not an "elite" Road Bike) he has lost utterly. He has doomed himself. He too will never reach Paradise.

(And in case you were unaware, riders in stage race are traveling at Maximum Speed from the moment that little flag waves and they don't slow down until the last stage end. 

They even Sleep at maximum speed .... using rim brakes.)

You have No Choice. Others have decided for you. Evidence is meaningless ... in fact, others have decided what Everything means .... just shut up and do as you are told .... otherwise you well be scorned (not snubbed---that would be snobbish) by the "elite" on their "elite" Road Bikes..

The best part of this thread is reading the posts of people who take it all seriously. 11-speed's posts generally strike me as masterpieces of subtle humor--- just enough exaggeration and hyperbole that one can tell (hope) he is poking fun at the whole "debate."

Some folks here seem to think this is all a meaningful discussion. Some seem ready to kill of die .... over people who have the temerity to ride more than one brake system on their various bicycles.

Vengeance!!!!!! We must have vengeance against those who have polluted our pure and perfect Elite "Road Bicycles" (which must be ridden at maximum Speed At All Times) using any equipment which differs from Our prescription. We Shall Strike Them Down.

World hunger can wait. Right now what matters is what kind of brakes certain cyclists use.


----------



## SPlKE

MoPho said:


> Only Freds base their purchases on what pros ride
> 
> 
> .


I'm a well-documented Fred and I do no such thing.

I wear an Under Armour Heat Gear T-shirt when I ride, FFS.


----------



## Kontact

ceugene said:


> His demeanor is aggressive because the premise of your argument is highly suspect. It’s capitalizing on the fear, uncertainty and doubt in others regarding rim-brake availability in the near-term.
> 
> Do you think rim-brake technology can be iterated much further? Even now there are compatibility issues. Newer rim-brake frames use direct mount calipers, right? Do you think the pros will be racing on tubs forever? Do you think it’s safe for the peloton to descend on full carbon clinchers and tubeless tires without disc brakes?
> 
> What’s the real advantage of a rim-brake bike to someone who isn’t encumbered by UCI weight limits? Bragging rights for who has the lightest bike mostly. Meanwhile my Emonda SLR Disc weighs 15.7lbs without really trying to get the weight down and the 1lb extra from the disc-brake accommodations is a fair trade-off for being able to blast by others who have stopped on the side of Deer Creek Rd to let their carbon rims cool.


My "premise" has been repeatedly misunderstood and largely unread. I'm not capitalizing on fear, I am expressing my concern about something, not attempting to scare anyone.

And to answer your question about rim brakes, I already answered your question about rim brakes back in my first post, #182:


> The "issue" is that the attempt to make aero rims light have caused the excellent aluminum braking surfaces of road rims to be removed in favor of bare carbon. This was done primarily for weight - rim weight, not wheel or bike weight. Having made the rims very light we then started looking for a braking solution, which just brought more weight back on the bike than was removed with the all carbon rims.
> 
> I don't think that was a very good bargain. You need a rim either way, why not put that piece of metal where it also serves a structural purpose in the rim and avoid the thermal load of a tiny disc? Has anyone bothered to experiment with metallic braking surface rims and something other than a standard black rubber break pad to solve wet braking issues? It doesn't seem like it.


As I pointed out early on, rim brakes are just a kind of "disc". Both use a caliper to squeeze a brake track in the same plane - but the rim is a far more efficient place to brake from. The fork is stronger at the crown and braking on the rim doesn't require the spokes to absorb braking forces. 

As I already said, I don't think rims should be all carbon. Instead of adding weight to the frame, fork and hub to accommodate a disc brake, just put _some_ of it back into the rim as a metal brake track and develop new pad systems. (If orange wet rim pads on alloy is deficient.) And as I already pointed out, rim hydraulic calipers are the oldest hydraulic road brakes. So arguments about modulation have nothing to do with rim vs rotor.

Disc brakes on MTBs make a lot of sense because of mud, but road bikes don't require mud clearance, so why build a road bike like a MTB?

The rim is already there. Put the "rotor" back where it belongs instead of the weakest place you can locate it.


Maelochs is so upset because he can't read and would rather express his confusion with insults rather than point by point argument. The enthusiasm to convert MTB brakes for road bikes has caused people to lose track whether the disc system truly makes sense for road bikes.


----------



## Kontact

Lombard said:


> It takes one to know one.
> 
> 
> 
> And you would be absolutely wrong.





> The term road bicycle is used to describe bicycles built for traveling at speed on paved roads. Some sources use the term to mean racing bicycle.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_bicycle


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> My "premise" has been repeatedly misunderstood and largely unread. I'm not capitalizing on fear, I am expressing my concern about something, not attempting to scare anyone.
> 
> And to answer your question about rim brakes, I already answered your question about rim brakes back in my first post, #182:
> 
> 
> As I pointed out early on, rim brakes are just a kind of "disc". Both use a caliper to squeeze a brake track in the same plane - but the rim is a far more efficient place to brake from. The fork is stronger at the crown and braking on the rim doesn't require the spokes to absorb braking forces.
> 
> As I already said, I don't think rims should be all carbon. Instead of adding weight to the frame, fork and hub to accommodate a disc brake, just put _some_ of it back into the rim as a metal brake track and develop new pad systems. (If orange wet rim pads on alloy is deficient.) And as I already pointed out, rim hydraulic calipers are the oldest hydraulic road brakes. So arguments about modulation have nothing to do with rim vs rotor.
> 
> Disc brakes on MTBs make a lot of sense because of mud, but road bikes don't require mud clearance, so why build a road bike like a MTB?
> 
> The rim is already there. Put the "rotor" back where it belongs instead of the weakest place you can locate it.
> 
> 
> Maelochs is so upset because he can't read and would rather express his confusion with insults rather than point by point argument. The enthusiasm to convert MTB brakes for road bikes has caused people to lose track whether the disc system truly makes sense for road bikes.


I have to query the pro-disc contingent in this thread. To my mind, Kontact makes a compelling argument to abolish disc brakes. Do you guys agree?


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> As I pointed out early on, rim brakes are just a kind of "disc". Both use a caliper to squeeze a brake track in the same plane - but the rim is a far more efficient place to brake from.


That is debatable, as I posted earlier a lot of that "efficiency" is lost and there is the potential to overheat and blow the tire off the rim (and you can deny that all you want, but everyone knows that it happens, I've personally witnessed several times)




> And the one we call rim use a stretchable cable, inside a compressible housing, connected to flexible caliper arms, attached to the bike with a flexible single bolt, which then uses compressible brake pads to press on a compressible brake track while diminishing the feel and control and dissipate the heat into your tire changing the air pressure with the possibility of blowing it off the rim or even delaminating the rim.


And hydro rim brakes only solves the stretching/compressing cable/housing part of the equation.


And quit your fake outrage over the "insults", you played that game when you attempted to belittle my experience in Post 214 



.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> That is debatable, as I posted earlier a lot of that "efficiency" is lost and there is the potential to overheat and blow the tire off the rim (and you can deny that all you want, but everyone knows that it happens, I've personally witnessed several times)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And hydro rim brakes only solves the stretching/compressing cable/housing part of the equation.
> 
> 
> And quit your fake outrage over the "insults", you played that game when you attempted to belittle my experience in Post 214
> 
> 
> 
> .


It isn’t debatable MoPho, Torque = F x D (radius)…why disc brakes need hydraulic fluid and rim brakes don’t. 

That said, let me share a further benefit of rim brakes as part of the heating debate. Keep in mind that air is a perfect gas, i.e. PV = nRT Everybody knows throughout a ride that moles of air wick through the tube/tire which translates to pressure lost. What heating the rim does since pressure is proportional to temperature for an ideal gas like air, is rebalance the tire pressure based upon leakage. Ingenious really and almost rivals artificial intelligence.

So its win/win if on rim brakes and why rim brakes will likely win design improvement of the year.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> It isn’t debatable MoPho, Torque = F x D (radius)…why disc brakes need hydraulic fluid and rim brakes don’t.
> That said, let me share a further benefit of rim brakes as part of the heating debate. Keep in mind that air is a perfect gas, i.e. PV = nRT Everybody knows throughout a ride that moles of air wick through the tube/tire which translates to pressure lost. What heating the rim does since pressure is proportional to Temperate for an ideal gas like air, is rebalance the tire pressure based upon leakage.
> So its win/win if on rim brakes.


LOL

Wrong on both counts.


.


----------



## exracer

Kontact said:


> I've ridden every kind of bike.
> 
> And you did misunderstand. I was saying that the very best "compliant" traditional road bike will absorb road vibrations better than the very best compliant disc bike when using similar wheels and tires. With wider tires the disc bike will absorb just as much vibration, but at the cost of higher rolling resistance.
> 
> 
> I should say that I am a huge fan of the tremendous development that road bike frames and forks have gone through since I started riding seriously in the '80s. EL tubesets, Nivachrom, Vitus frames, SR Prism forks, TVT, Klein, Slingshot, Carbon frames, Litespeed, Look, Kestrel, OCLV - these were all revelations at the time. It wasn't just that bikes were getting lighter - they were testing newfound qualities in suppleness that made the traditional road bike more comfortable and efficient at the same time. I'm not being nostalgic - I experienced the difference that a flexible aluminum and later carbon fork could bring to even a basic aluminum bike. It would be sad to see all that largely go away to accommodate hub braking forces.



So now we are getting somewhere. So are you limiting yourself to the vey best "compliant" traditional road bikes? Well who is the very best? That is highly subjective and I don't know about the rest of you but vertical compliance is not on my list of priorities when it comes to buying a frame.

So the "very best" traditional road will have better bump absorption than a disc equipped bike. So what, that is not a deficiency. So it transmits more road buzz through the frame. How is that any different 
from comparing a vertically compliant bike to my Scapin which is not smooth as glass?


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> LOL
> 
> Wrong on both counts.
> 
> 
> .


Style points then?


----------



## 11spd

exracer said:


> So now we are getting somewhere. So are you limiting yourself to the vey best "compliant" traditional road bikes? *Well who is the very best? That is highly subjective *and I don't know about the rest of you but vertical compliance is not on my list of priorities when it comes to buying a frame.
> 
> So the "very best" traditional road will have better bump absorption than a disc equipped bike. So what, that is not a deficiency. So it transmits more road buzz through the frame. How is that any different
> from comparing a vertically compliant bike to my Scapin which is not smooth as glass?


Not subjective, mine is the best. Actually bump absorption of rim brake bikes has a true benefit. This is where uneven playing field comes into play. Pretty apparent, you are a low watt rider. By contrast, I generate so many watts, I can peel out for 30 feet on a disc bike because I can't get any traction due to the stiff chainstays...if the road is even slightly bumpy. If you don't have my massive power, of course this doesn't matter. All comes full circle back to why better riders prefer rim brakes.


----------



## Maelochs

11spd said:


> By contrast, I generate so many watts, I can peel out for 30 feet on a disc bike because I can't get any traction due to the stiff chainstays...if the road is even slightly bumpy. If you don't have my massive power, of course this doesn't matter.


 maybe you need a bike with slimmer seat stays? Maybe ... You just bought the wrong bike, and you are blaming disc brakes for your won weakness as a shopper.

Unless you have tested Every frame with identical builds in repeated and carefully measured back-to-back tests on the precise same stretch of pavement, you could simply be a low-wattage bike shopper. Better hone your skills.  

Good post.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> That is debatable, as I posted earlier a lot of that "efficiency" is lost and there is the potential to overheat and blow the tire off the rim (and you can deny that all you want, but everyone knows that it happens, I've personally witnessed several times)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And hydro rim brakes only solves the stretching/compressing cable/housing part of the equation.
> 
> 
> And quit your fake outrage over the "insults", you played that game when you attempted to belittle my experience in Post 214
> 
> 
> 
> .


Duder, pro mountain stage racing is how old? How many blown tires from descent overheating have their been in all that time? I'm sure you have seen some, but what PSI did the tires start with?

However, a carbon and aluminum composite wheel could be constructed to insulate the tire from the brake track. Carbon fiber does not conduct heat well, so if the metal brake was not in contact with the tire you've solved that problem.


This is in contrast to disc brake fade, which is definitely an observed phenomenon of great consequence. Discs are great for on off use and wet, but not long continuous dry use.



And I did not "belittle" you, I pointed out that your experience was _little _in having compared two bikes from one maker. Pointing that out shouldn't make you feel insulted.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Duder, pro mountain stage racing is how old? How many blown tires from descent overheating have their been in all that time? I'm sure you have seen some, but what PSI did the tires start with?
> 
> However, a carbon and aluminum composite wheel could be constructed to insulate the tire from the brake track. Carbon fiber does not conduct heat well, so if the metal brake was not in contact with the tire you've solved that problem.
> 
> 
> This is in contrast to disc brake fade, which is definitely an observed phenomenon of great consequence. Discs are great for on off use and wet, but not long continuous dry use.
> 
> 
> 
> *And I did not "belittle" you*, I pointed out that your experience was _little _in having compared two bikes from one maker. Pointing that out shouldn't make you feel insulted.


Actually Kontact, I am on your side but you did call his thing little and many would not appreciate that.


----------



## Kontact

exracer said:


> So now we are getting somewhere. So are you limiting yourself to the vey best "compliant" traditional road bikes? Well who is the very best? That is highly subjective and I don't know about the rest of you but vertical compliance is not on my list of priorities when it comes to buying a frame.
> 
> So the "very best" traditional road will have better bump absorption than a disc equipped bike. So what, that is not a deficiency. So it transmits more road buzz through the frame. How is that any different
> from comparing a vertically compliant bike to my Scapin which is not smooth as glass?


What do you mean "limiting"? There is little point singing the praises of what a rim road bike can be designed to do without acknowledging that many of them are too stiff and fail to do that.

And I'm not understanding the rest of your objection. The "best" racing bike in terms of the things we're talking about would transmit power efficiently (most do, flexible aluminum Vitus frames did not), minimize tiring shock and vibration with minimal rolling resistance.

The long standing "best" way to accomplish the above has been by combining a medium width tire (23-27c) with frame and fork that deflect while having enough spring to prevent energy loss. You can change those variables around, but when you make the frame and fork stiffer, you transmit more fatiguing road vibration to the rider. You can fix that putting more flex in the wheel, but that doesn't work if you are using a hub brake, so it is better to put the energy damping in the tire - but now you've raised rolling resistance and powertrain loss above what a 25c tire would.

So I'm not talking about some magic "best bike", but just the bikes that you could easily and scientifically measure as having the least rolling resistance, highest powertrain efficiency at or below a reasonable level of transmitted road vibration. 

And let's pretend that one of those bikes was something like a Parlee with an Enve rim fork. Then we ask some other maker who are known for their comfortable and fast disc bikes to give us their best disc bike using the best disc fork. Let's say it is a $11,000 Venge. When you put both bikes on a dyno that simulates real roads, the Parlee's rider will put more of his energy into velocity than the Venge because of either less vibration fatigue or less fat tire energy loss.

And you don't have to personally care that the Venge is slower. The point I'm making is that those of us who do care about squeezing efficiency out of bicycles ride racing bikes rather than Randos for a reason, and those reasons are somewhat at odds with what discs due to frames and forks.


And then on top of that there are issues like weight, brake fade and aerodynamics. But I'm primarily commenting on what makes a racing bike fast over a hilly 100 mile course of peloton riding, and what I have observed in disc bikes is at odds with that.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Actually Kontact, I am on your side but you did call his thing little and many would not appreciate that.


Are you making a joke? I called a disc "little" because it is one fifth the diameter of a rim. They are little, which is why they hit their max thermal load and fade, while rims don't have brake fade issues.


----------



## Kontact

Maelochs said:


> maybe you need a bike with slimmer seat stays? Maybe ... You just bought the wrong bike, and you are blaming disc brakes for your won weakness as a shopper.
> 
> Unless you have tested Every frame with identical builds in repeated and carefully measured back-to-back tests on the precise same stretch of pavement, you could simply be a low-wattage bike shopper. Better hone your skills.
> 
> Good post.


How slim can the seat stays be if they have to carry the entire rear brake load? Same problem as the fork.


----------



## ceugene

Kontact, you know well enough there's many detrimental aspects of using the rim's surface as a rotor.

1) Greater deflection at the brake surface under load.
2) Braking is compromised if a wheel is out of true.
3) Increased exposure to moisture, grit, grime.
4) Integration at its worst. Let the structural components be structural components, let the braking components be braking components.
5) Thermal loads. Even alloy rims adversely affect clinchers/tubes on very difficult descents. I'd rather isolate the heat at the tiny disc and brake system where DOT Fluid can handle in excess of a couple hundred degrees.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> Duder, pro mountain stage racing is how old? How many blown tires from descent overheating have their been in all that time? I'm sure you have seen some, but what PSI did the tires start with?



Stupid question! You think there is some database of blown tires? Anyone who has any riding exerience knows this happens, doesn't matter how frequently, or how many. It's an issue, stop trying to deny it. 

And of course it doesn't happen to pro racers that often, they are not using the brakes harder than recreational riders, they don't have to worry about oncoming traffic, or coming to a complete stop from high speeds, or having to ride the brakes behind a slow moving vehicle, etc., and they are not carrying the extra body weight that recreational riders often have. Pro racing is not proof of equipment needs for recreational riding PERIOD!

And if you must, there was a rider who crashed after his tire had come off from braking heat in the 2016 TdF




> This is in contrast to disc brake fade, which is definitely an observed phenomenon of great consequence.


I'll ask you the same stupid question: How many disc brake fades from descending has their been? 



> Discs are great for on off use and wet, but not long continuous dry use.


Well gee, I've never used one of your seats, but I can tell by looking at them that they are no good for long continuous use 

The thing is, you don't get to be the arbiter of what disc brakes are not great for and it is clear you don't have much, if any, experience with them.






> And I did not "belittle" you, I pointed out that your experience was _little _in having compared two bikes from one maker. Pointing that out shouldn't make you feel insulted.


You assumed that I only had experience with two bikes, and you insinuated I was some beginner rider with no experience on a $400 hybrid bike in an attempt to discredit me, it was insulting 

And again, comparing two bikes from the same make and model is far more relevant to noting the differences than comparing random bikes. (and as noted earlier, even with two similar bikes it is impossible to point to the beefing up of the F/F as the source of any ride differences) 




.


----------



## Kontact

ceugene said:


> Kontact, you know well enough there's many detrimental aspects of using the rim's surface as a rotor.
> 
> 1) Greater deflection at the brake surface under load.
> 2) Braking is compromised if a wheel is out of true.
> 3) Increased exposure to moisture, grit, grime.
> 4) Integration at its worst. Let the structural components be structural components, let the braking components be braking components.
> 5) Thermal loads. Even alloy rims adversely affect clinchers/tubes on very difficult descents. I'd rather isolate the heat at the tiny disc and brake system where DOT Fluid can handle in excess of a couple hundred degrees.


1. I'm not sure what that is, or why it is a problem.
2. My brakes work when my wheel is out of true. Your's didn't?
3. Does the exposure to grime mean the break isn't going to work? What is the problem?
4. So you want structural to be structural, yet you're making the fork and spokes essential elements of the braking system? I think you have it backwards.
5. You can get brake fade with a cable disc brake. The disc itself overheats. The fluid on the other side of the piston on the other side of the brake pads can't take that heat away.


----------



## Dcmkx2000

I want to get a gravel/cross bike for using a child seat. I am looking into a norco threshold cross bike because it meets my criteria: rack mounts, trp disc brakes, drop bar, etc.... I started another thread about if it was safe to use a child seat on a bike like this and I was told to post tge question in this thread for advice. I would be using the topeak seat tgat mounts to their rack, or the Thule seat that attaches to the seat tube. I was concerned about bike handling and saftey because I don't want to use a trailer. Thoughts?


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> My "premise" has been repeatedly misunderstood and largely unread. I'm not capitalizing on fear, I am expressing my concern about something, not attempting to scare anyone.
> 
> And to answer your question about rim brakes, I already answered your question about rim brakes back in my first post, #182:
> 
> 
> As I pointed out early on, rim brakes are just a kind of "disc". Both use a caliper to squeeze a brake track in the same plane - but the rim is a far more efficient place to brake from. The fork is stronger at the crown and braking on the rim doesn't require the spokes to absorb braking forces.
> 
> As I already said, I don't think rims should be all carbon. Instead of adding weight to the frame, fork and hub to accommodate a disc brake, just put _some_ of it back into the rim as a metal brake track and develop new pad systems. (If orange wet rim pads on alloy is deficient.) And as I already pointed out, rim hydraulic calipers are the oldest hydraulic road brakes. So arguments about modulation have nothing to do with rim vs rotor.
> 
> Disc brakes on MTBs make a lot of sense because of mud, but road bikes don't require mud clearance, so why build a road bike like a MTB?
> 
> The rim is already there. Put the "rotor" back where it belongs instead of the weakest place you can locate it.
> 
> 
> Maelochs is so upset because he can't read and would rather express his confusion with insults rather than point by point argument. The enthusiasm to convert MTB brakes for road bikes has caused people to lose track whether the disc system truly makes sense for road bikes.


Perhaps the problem you're having understanding discs brakes is less complicated than most here realize. You've made it pretty clear that you are unaware of the difference between a bicycle wheel rim and a disc brake rotor. I'll try to help.

A bicycle rim is a U-shaped extrusion bent into a round circle. As an afterthought braking surfaces were added to this extrusion in the questionable endeavor to allegedly cobble together a superior braking system to spoon brakes. The problem was that the inventors of this antiquated and now mostly abandoned development overlooked some serious flaws. 

First, they apparently failed to see that the brake pads would be pushing on two surfaces with only air and some squishy rubber between them which seriously limited both the life expectancy and the amount of pressure that could be applied. The second and most serious oversight was that the braking surface was smooth with no holes to discharge water and other contaminants trapped between it and the pads. Beyond that the developers also apparently failed to understand the limitations of using cable activation and a large diameter and randomly contaminated braking surface with low braking pressure............or did they?

Could they have been that stupid or were these sunz-a-bit-chas feigning ignorance and implementing the now pervasive vast-corporate-conspiracy uncovered by gen Xers and Snowflakes? Is it even conceivable that were not being paid by the manufacturers of grip tape, rims, cable housings and cables to rip off cyclists with an obviously inferior "technology" (or lack thereof)?


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Stupid question! You think there is some database of blown tires? Anyone who has any riding exerience knows this happens, doesn't matter how frequently, or how many. It's an issue, stop trying to deny it.
> 
> And of course it doesn't happen to pro racers that often, they are not using the brakes harder than recreational riders, they don't have to worry about oncoming traffic, or coming to a complete stop from high speeds, or having to ride the brakes behind a slow moving vehicle, etc., and they are not carrying the extra body weight that recreational riders often have. Pro racing is not proof of equipment needs for recreational riding PERIOD!
> 
> And if you must, there was a rider who crashed after his tire had come off from braking heat in the 2016 TdF


The TDF rider rolled a tire when his tubular glue melted, not because the his tire blew.

He was using tubulars because it is hard to make a really strong clincher out of carbon, though they are getting better. A metal tubeless clincher would have prevented it.

Pro riders have to worry about brake fade because they don't have to stop at traffic lights. They generate great speeds that they then need to slow for hairpins and then go back to high speeds. This generates more heat than more sedate training rides are likely to.



> I'll ask you the same stupid question: How many disc brake fades from descending has their been?


Go to MTBR.com and do a search for brake fade. It is definitely a concern for mountain descents.


> Well gee, I've never used one of your seats, but I can tell by looking at them that they are no good for long continuous use
> 
> The thing is, you don't get to be the arbiter of what disc brakes are not great for and it is clear you don't have much, if any, experience with them.


I'm not sure what looking at a picture of a seat has to do with my experience with the disc bikes I've ridden.

What was your experience riding a Kontact saddle? I've had riders use them for 24 hour events.


> You assumed that I only had experience with two bikes, and you insinuated I was some beginner rider with no experience on a $400 hybrid bike in an attempt to discredit me, it was insulting
> 
> And again, comparing two bikes from the same make and model is far more relevant to noting the differences than comparing random bikes. (and as noted earlier, even with two similar bikes it is impossible to point to the beefing up of the F/F as the source of any ride differences)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I didn't assume you had experience with two bikes, you SAID your opinion came from riding two bikes. My point was that if you had ridden some more and different rim bikes of good design, you might have more perspective on the ride qualities I was referring to. Some of the pro-disc folks on this thread seem to at least acknowledge that disc frames and forks are stiffer.

And I didn't imply your bikes were hybrids, I was naming one of many types of bikes that get ridden on the road as examples of why this issue is narrowly focused on road racing type bikes. When you assumed that I mentioned hybrids to insult you, you got it wrong. The context of this whole thread (I assumed) was road race style bicycles. Is this not Road Bike Review?

I am not insulting you, I am not attempting to insult you. You and your buddies are very fast an loose with the "stupid" type insults, and you should stop. If I decide to insult you, you'll know it.


----------



## Kontact

Dcmkx2000 said:


> I want to get a gravel/cross bike for using a child seat. I am looking into a norco threshold cross bike because it meets my criteria: rack mounts, trp disc brakes, drop bar, etc.... I started another thread about if it was safe to use a child seat on a bike like this and I was told to post tge question in this thread for advice. I would be using the topeak seat tgat mounts to their rack, or the Thule seat that attaches to the seat tube. I was concerned about bike handling and saftey because I don't want to use a trailer. *Thoughts*?


You posted your question in the wrong thread.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> Perhaps the problem you're having understanding discs brakes is less complicated than most here realize. You've made it pretty clear that you are unaware of the difference between a bicycle wheel rim and a disc brake rotor. I'll try to help.
> 
> A bicycle rim is a U-shaped extrusion bent into a round circle. As an afterthought braking surfaces were added to this extrusion in the questionable endeavor to allegedly cobble together a superior braking system to spoon brakes. The problem was that the inventors of this antiquated and now mostly abandoned development overlooked some serious flaws.
> 
> First, they apparently failed to see that the brake pads would be pushing on two surfaces with only air and some squishy rubber between them which seriously limited both the life expectancy and the amount of pressure that could be applied. The second and most serious oversight was that the braking surface was smooth with no holes to discharge water and other contaminants trapped between it and the pads. Beyond that the developers also apparently failed to understand the limitations of using cable activation and a large diameter and randomly contaminated braking surface with low braking pressure............or did they?
> 
> Could they have been that stupid or were these sunz-a-bit-chas feigning ignorance and implementing the now pervasive vast-corporate-conspiracy uncovered by gen Xers and Snowflakes? Is it even conceivable that were not being paid by the manufacturers of grip tape, rims, cable housings and cables to rip off cyclists with an obviously inferior "technology" (or lack thereof)?


I'm not sure if this is satire or not, but rim brakes work and have for over a century. One would think reading your description that most anyone can't lock up a wheel in wet conditions using a rim brake.


By contrast, I have pointed out how Rube Golderberg it is to have braking forces transmitted from tire>rim>spokes>hub>rotor>caliper>fork>bicycle when a rim brake goes tire>rim>caliper>bike and cuts out the hub, spokes and fork. It is much nicer being able to use the spokes and fork for things other than stopping a bike, especially when the fork is supposed to act as suspension.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Are you making a joke? I called a disc "little" because it is one fifth the diameter of a rim. They are little, which is why they hit their max thermal load and fade, while rims don't have brake fade issues.


No. You said he had a little thing and then you pointed at it. I am dead serious.


----------



## 11spd

Dcmkx2000 said:


> I want to get a gravel/cross bike for using a child seat. I am looking into a norco threshold cross bike because it meets my criteria: rack mounts, trp disc brakes, drop bar, etc.... I started another thread about if it was safe to use a child seat on a bike like this and I was told to post tge question in this thread for advice. I would be using the topeak seat tgat mounts to their rack, or the Thule seat that attaches to the seat tube. I was concerned about bike handling and saftey because I don't want to use a trailer. Thoughts?


 I am glad you stopped into this thread per my suggestion. Probably the majority that have voted their belief that disc brakes are better than rim brakes...many if not most ride with child seats on the back...loaded or unloaded. My aunt Maybell does the same. You can hopefully glean some good advice. 

On a serious note, riding with a child seat with or without disc brakes is a big safety concern and ill advised and a threat to your child's welfare.. I personally wouldn't and my advice matters for example because I have the good sense to ride rim brakes...what a proper roadbike should have. That said, for the safety of your child, I 'strongly' recommend a child trailer. Much safer for the child, easier for your balance and 'much' safer. Be sure to have your child wear a helmet within the trailer. Ride safe.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> No. You said he had a little thing and then you pointed at it. I am dead serious.


Clearly you aren't serious. I can't point with words.

If you would like to make sense, please quote what you're talking about. I can't guess which "it" you're talking about, and it is a waste of bandwidth.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> *I'm not sure if this is satire *or not, but rim brakes work and have for over a century. One would think reading your description that most anyone can't lock up a wheel in wet conditions using a rim brake.
> 
> 
> By contrast, I have pointed out how Rube Golderberg it is to have braking forces transmitted from tire>rim>spokes>hub>rotor>caliper>fork>bicycle when a rim brake goes tire>rim>caliper>bike and cuts out the hub, spokes and fork. It is much nicer being able to use the spokes and fork for things other than stopping a bike, especially when the fork is supposed to act as suspension.


To be clear, there is no satire in this thread. It would be highly inappropriate. Even though many who drive pick ups and believe bicycles are toys which should be ridden only on the sidewalk, rim versus disc brake...this decision is a weighty one and not to be taken lightly.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Clearly you aren't serious. I can't point with words.
> 
> If you would like to make sense, please quote what you're talking about. I can't guess which "it" you're talking about, and it is a waste of bandwidth.


No I saw you. You pointed at his thing and then you covered your mouth concealing a grin. It was a virtual grin, but the connotation was the same. Some are sensitive about their manhood and others display it proudly in their spandex. Keep in mind, those that ride disc brakes are masking a deeper insecurity. You must know your audience.


----------



## Kontact

Okay, I'll ignore you.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Okay, I'll ignore you.


You shouldn't because I am witty.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> The TDF rider rolled a tire when his tubular glue melted, not because the his tire blew.


Rolled a tub, or blowing a clincher, doesn't change the point.





> He was using tubulars because it is hard to make a really strong clincher out of carbon, though they are getting better. A metal tubeless clincher would have prevented it.


Not necessarily, I once had to make an emergency stop from over 50mph in a group ride, the guy next to me blew his tire and crashed and he was on alloy rims. And people were blowing tires off alloy rims long before carbon wheels existed. 

I also had over 30k miles of abuse (braking, potholes, curbs, jumps, grit, etc.) on my previous set of carbon clinchers, they are strong.




> Pro riders have to worry about brake fade because they don't have to stop at traffic lights. They generate great speeds that they then need to slow for hairpins and then go back to high speeds. This generates more heat than more sedate training rides are likely to.



Uh, no. I have descended closed roads where you can take the whole road and you use the brakes a lot less. And I regularly have to slow from high speed for hairpins, it's still not as hard on the brakes as having to come to a complete stop from those speeds, nor having to ride the brakes almost the whole way down a mountain because you are stuck behind an RV or something.




> Go to MTBR.com and do a search for brake fade. It is definitely a concern for mountain descents.


Is there a database with a concrete number to prove your point?



> I'm not sure what looking at a picture of a seat has to do with my experience with the disc bikes I've ridden.
> 
> What was your experience riding a Kontact saddle? I've had riders use them for 24 hour events.


I have not ridden, seen, or even looked at a picture for more than a second of your saddle, but I have jumped to conclusions like you and others have about disc brakes. ( I guess that went right over your head)




> I didn't assume you had experience with two bikes, you SAID your opinion came from riding two bikes. My point was that if you had ridden some more and different rim bikes of good design, you might have more perspective on the ride qualities I was referring to. Some of the pro-disc folks on this thread seem to at least acknowledge that disc frames and forks are stiffer.
> 
> And I didn't imply your bikes were hybrids, I was naming one of many types of bikes that get ridden on the road as examples of why this issue is narrowly focused on road racing type bikes. When you assumed that I mentioned hybrids to insult you, you got it wrong. The context of this whole thread (I assumed) was road race style bicycles. Is this not Road Bike Review?
> 
> I am not insulting you, I am not attempting to insult you. You and your buddies are very fast an loose with the "stupid" type insults, and you should stop. If I decide to insult you, you'll know it.


No, you clearly jumped to conclusions and insinuated that I had no experience with anything other than two bikes and that I was talking about entry level bikes in an attempt to discredit me. If the conversation was narrowly focused on road bikes, as you just noted, there was no reason for you to assume I was talking about anything else. 
And again, the only way to be able to know there is a difference made from the beefing up of the fork is to ride two of the same bike with the different brake types, and then even then there will be too many variables to pinpoint what changed the ride quality if any. 

And I never called you stupid, I said your comments were either stupid or BS.



.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Rolled a tub, or blowing a clincher, doesn't change the point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily, I once had to make an emergency stop from over 50mph in a group ride, the guy next to me blew his tire and crashed and he was on alloy rims. And people were blowing tires off alloy rims long before carbon wheels existed.
> 
> I also had over 30k miles of abuse (braking, potholes, curbs, jumps, grit, etc.) on my previous set of carbon clinchers, they are strong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, no. I have descended closed roads where you can take the whole road and you use the brakes a lot less. And I regularly have to slow from high speed for hairpins, it's still not as hard on the brakes as having to come to a complete stop from those speeds, nor having to ride the brakes almost the whole way down a mountain because you are stuck behind an RV or something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a database with a concrete number to prove your point?
> 
> 
> 
> I have not ridden, seen, or even looked at a picture for more than a second of your saddle, but I have jumped to conclusions like you and others have about disc brakes. ( I guess that went right over your head)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you clearly jumped to conclusions and insinuated that I had no experience with anything other than two bikes and that I was talking about entry level bikes in an attempt to discredit me. If the conversation was narrowly focused on road bikes, as you just noted, there was no reason for you to assume I was talking about anything else.
> And again, the only way to be able to know there is a difference made from the beefing up of the fork is to ride two of the same bike with the different brake types, and then even then there will be too many variables to pinpoint what changed the ride quality if any.
> 
> And I never called you stupid, I said your comments were either stupid or BS.
> 
> 
> 
> .


So the guy next to you blew a tire in an emergency stop, and it was an overheat blow off, not a skid through? How long was he on the brakes that you think he generated that much heat?

Tubular glue is and always has been problematic. The temps required to soften the glue are not high compared to blowoff temps.



You can't call someone's thoughts "stupid" and expect that to not be a commentary on the mind that created it. Stop being insulting. Use your words and make your argument without resorting to personal attacks, if you can.


----------



## 11spd

Guys,
I need to take a poll here. Many know I have been a pretty staunch supporter of rim brakes. But if you want me to argue in favor of disc and join your side, I am willing to try that as an experiment. Reason is, I have found that even though I pretty much agree with Kontact, I find he has no sense of humor and takes this stuff seriously. Call it a ***** in his armor which I find disturbing on the rim brake side of the ledger.
Let me know.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Guys,
> I need to take a poll here. Many know I have been a pretty staunch supporter of rim brakes. But if you want me to argue in favor of disc and join your side, I am willing to try that as an experiment. Reason is, I have found that even though I pretty much agree with Kontact, I find he has no sense of humor and takes this stuff seriously. Call it a ***** in his armor which I find disturbing on the rim brake side of the ledger.
> Let me know.


I have a great sense of humor - when I read something I can identify as funny. But you're really not coming through that way, and I'm sure the guy with the baby seat problem doesn't find you hilarious.

This could be a reasonably light discussion, but way too many participants are being much to insulting for things to be anything but serious. Your pranks just make it hard to tell whether you mean anything you say. Really, you just sound drunk.


----------



## SPlKE

Kontact said:


> I have a great sense of humor - when I read something I can identify as funny. But you're really not coming through that way, and I'm sure the guy with the baby seat problem doesn't find you hilarious.
> 
> This could be a reasonably light discussion, but way too many participants are being much to insulting for things to be anything but serious. Your pranks just make it hard to tell whether you mean anything you say. Really, you just sound drunk.


I dunno. Maybe I'm drunk... I know I'm an easy laugh... but I get an occasional charge out of 11spd's observations.


----------



## dcorn

Kontact said:


> Tubular glue is and always has been problematic. The temps required to soften the glue are not high compared to blowoff temps.


Weird, if only there was a way to reduce the temperatures of a wheel rim under hard braking. Like maybe not using the wheel rim as a brake rotor? And actually using a separate brake rotor to stop the bike? Maybe someone will invent that soon.


----------



## Maelochs

I think 11spd should argue both sides of the premise, switching positions every third post or so.

Seriously ... very Seriously ....


----------



## Kontact

dcorn said:


> Weird, if only there was a way to reduce the temperatures of a wheel rim under hard braking. Like maybe not using the wheel rim as a brake rotor? And actually using a separate brake rotor to stop the bike? Maybe someone will invent that soon.


Or, we could abandon using low temp, low tack horse glue from the wood rim era to hold a bike together. How about that for an engineering goal?


People roll tires even when the glue isn't hot.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> So the guy next to you blew a tire in an emergency stop, and it was an overheat blow off, not a skid through? How long was he on the brakes that you think he generated that much heat?


What difference does it make?! Doesn't change my point. And no, there was no skid, it was the front tire and an alloy rim. Stop grasping at straws.




> You can't call someone's thoughts "stupid" and expect that to not be a commentary on the mind that created it. Stop being insulting. Use your words and make your argument without resorting to personal attacks, if you can.


I called your comments BS, that is not a personal insult. Get over it! 



.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> I have a great sense of humor - when I read something I can identify as funny. But you're really not coming through that way, and I'm sure the guy with the baby seat problem doesn't find you hilarious.
> 
> This could be a reasonably light discussion, but way too many participants are being much to insulting for things to be anything but serious. Your pranks just make it hard to tell whether you mean anything you say. Really, you just sound drunk.


No, you have a very poor sense of humor to be quite honest and you are extraordinarily thin skinned to let any comments by posters here engaging you in a friendly debate, if they have offended you in any way. A good sense of humor takes understanding irony and nuance and btw, understanding the counter argument of pro disc which has basis in reason. Right over your technically minded head. You take this thread much too serious and you are wrong about your unequivocal adherence to rim brakes which I prefer as well. 

There is a reason that disc brakes have come into being as extolled by supporters in this thread. They have a clear upside for riding certain geography. They do stop better under certain conditions. The reason that discs aren't universally embraced is because of the benefits of rim brakes....weight, aerodynamics, low maintenance and cost and in the pro peloton, more seamless wheel changes. You bring up the good point of reinforcing a frameset counterproductive to optimized stiffness conducive to compliancy and planted handling which is an attribute engineers like me have to design around in terms of geometry compensating for increased localized section modulus.

Point is and why this debate will never end, is a given brake type is better for a given type of riding. Guess what? We each choose different priorities for what we use our road bikes for. A guy who lives in the mountains who does 50 mph descents out his back door will prefer disc brakes every day. Me too if I lived in that environment but I don't.

In summary, steadfast adherence to either brake type is a myopic view of the subject.


----------



## 11spd

Maelochs said:


> I think 11spd should argue both sides of the premise, switching positions every third post or so.
> 
> Seriously ... very Seriously ....


See my post just before. Truth? Each brake type has value and why both still exist on different level bikes. Rider preference... mostly born out of how a rider uses his bike and what environment he/she rides.


----------



## Maelochs

11spd said:


> See my post just before. Truth? Each brake type has value and why both still exist on different level bikes. Rider preference... mostly born out of how a rider uses his bike and what environment he/she rides.


 Too true. Too simple. Way too obvious. This has been stated with similar clarity all too many times ... if people could actually read the words and understand them ... we'd be out 13 pages of Kontact raging against his imaginary enemies.

It is a demonstration of human creativity, the variety of inane but rationally explained and vehemently defended arguments we see here to attack or defend simply choosing the best tool for each available job.

Plus there is a much broader educational application ... when children .... so innocent, no naive ... ask questions like, "Why is there war? John Lennon said 'War is over .... if we want it'." Why don't we all just get along?"

We show them this thread.


----------



## 11spd

Maelochs said:


> Too true. Too simple. Way too obvious. This has been stated with similar clarity all too many times ... if people could actually read the words and understand them ... we'd be out 13 pages of Kontact raging against his imaginary enemies.
> 
> It is a demonstration of human creativity, the variety of inane but rationally explained and vehemently defended arguments we see here to attack or defend simply choosing the best tool for each available job.
> 
> Plus there is a much broader educational application ... when children .... so innocent, no naive ... ask questions like, "Why is there war? John Lennon said 'War is over .... if we want it'." Why don't we all just get along?"
> 
> We show them this thread.


Man's inhumanity to fellow man. Man's propensity to conquer and war since the beginning of time, modern man being on the planet for the last 200,000 years.
Man learning little by history. Biology trumps lessons learned.


----------



## Fajita Dave

11spd said:


> The reason that discs aren't universally embraced is because of the benefits of rim brakes....weight, aerodynamics, low maintenance and cost and in the pro peloton, more seamless wheel changes.


I'd like to point out the rims brakes on my road bike require more time consuming maintenance than the discs on my mtb. My disc brakes have been 100% mainenance free for the past 1,100 miles. They've taken abuse from downhill parks and steep mountain descents up to 9 miles long with the brakes applied almost the whole way. The brake tracks on my rim brakes needs to be cleaned at least twice in that period of time. 

Performance lost with disc on road bike is still practically zero compared to the complete rider and bike combo.


----------



## 11spd

Fajita Dave said:


> *I'd like to point out the rims brakes on my road bike require more time consuming maintenance than the discs on my mtb*. My disc brakes have been 100% mainenance free for the past 1,100 miles. They've taken abuse from downhill parks and steep mountain descents up to 9 miles long with the brakes applied almost the whole way. The brake tracks on my rim brakes needs to be cleaned at least twice in that period of time.
> 
> Performance lost with disc on road bike is still practically zero compared to the complete rider and bike combo.


Hi Dave,
In bold...surprising. All the disc brake bikes I have owned have been higher maintenance than rim brakes.
Does your mtb have hydraulic discs? If so which brand and model? I would like to research it.
Thanks
PS: as to your last sentence, even though disc brake owners trivialize performance loss of disc brakes, and granted it is small as you correctly say, the point I believe is, it isn't 0. So for guys like me who live in flatish country, a no brainer. I prefer 0 performance loss given a choice. This nuance is really the difference in the two brake types I believe.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> The other problem is the rider loading and break loading take place in opposite directions. Bumps cause forks to flex up and forward, disc braking flexes the fork to the rear.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think you may be a bit confused. All front wheel braking force places rearward pressure on forks, regardless of brake type
> 
> Regarding "Bumps cause forks to flex up and forward", perhaps the rules of physics are different where you ride. To find out, would you run your bike into any significant bump/curb at say 15mph and determine the direction of fork flex and get back to us. It's clear that we have much to learn from you.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> No, you have a very poor sense of humor to be quite honest and you are extraordinarily thin skinned to let any comments by posters here engaging you in a friendly debate, if they have offended you in any way. A good sense of humor takes understanding irony and nuance and btw, understanding the counter argument of pro disc which has basis in reason. Right over your technically minded head. You take this thread much too serious and you are wrong about your unequivocal adherence to rim brakes which I prefer as well.
> 
> There is a reason that disc brakes have come into being as extolled by supporters in this thread. They have a clear upside for riding certain geography. They do stop better under certain conditions. The reason that discs aren't universally embraced is because of the benefits of rim brakes....weight, aerodynamics, low maintenance and cost and in the pro peloton, more seamless wheel changes. You bring up the good point of reinforcing a frameset counterproductive to optimized stiffness conducive to compliancy and planted handling which is an attribute engineers like me have to design around in terms of geometry compensating for increased localized section modulus.
> 
> Point is and why this debate will never end, is a given brake type is better for a given type of riding. Guess what? We each choose different priorities for what we use our road bikes for. A guy who lives in the mountains who does 50 mph descents out his back door will prefer disc brakes every day. Me too if I lived in that environment but I don't.
> 
> In summary, steadfast adherence to either brake type is a myopic view of the subject.


This post illustrates the basic frustrating problem of this thread: No one is reading the words written.


I did not say that discs had no value on any road racing style bike. What I said was that I don't want the UCI to abandon rim brakes because the industry will follow, and I described exactly why that would be unfortunate. Over and over I stated my support for using whatever brake wherever people wanted.

But the pro-disc contingent makes their argument by grossly exaggerating the difficiencies of rim brakes while turning a blind eye to the disadvantages disc. That wouldn't be so frustrating if those folks could state their case without swearing at me.

I don't know you, so given the way people fail to read what's on the page, I can't tell if you're actually calling me out for something I didn't write or having "fun". In context, you just seemed like yet another person who can't read, rather than the second coming of Rodney Dangerfield.


If all the parties involved in this discussion acted like grown-ups, the discussion would have moved on to dealing with the deficiencies of both kinds of systems and possible solutions instead of insults and character assassination. 

I'm here because I like bicycles. I could go anywhere if I just wanted to listen to kids squabble and brag about themselves. But congrats on being so funny and all.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> Kontact said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other problem is the rider loading and break loading take place in opposite directions. Bumps cause forks to flex up and forward, disc braking flexes the fork to the rear.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think you may be a bit confused. All front wheel braking force places rearward pressure on forks, regardless of brake type
> 
> Regarding "Bumps cause forks to flex up and forward", perhaps the rules of physics are different where you ride. To find out, would you run your bike into any significant bump/curb at say 15mph and determine the direction of fork flex and get back to us. It's clear that we have much to learn from you.
> 
> 
> 
> I stated this poorly. What I meant was that the degree of rear bending moment from a disc brake was much greater than a rim brake because it takes place entirely on the end of the fork, rather than distributed between crown and axle.
> 
> Several early dedicated road disc brake forks were recalled for snapping off, so I hope this reality is obvious enough.
Click to expand...


----------



## den bakker

Kontact said:


> This post illustrates the basic frustrating problem of this thread: No one is reading the words written.
> 
> 
> I did not say that discs had no value on any road racing style bike. What I said was that I don't want the UCI to abandon rim brakes because the industry will follow, and I described exactly why that would be unfortunate.


UCI abandoning rim brakes? They are discussing allowing disk brakes.


----------



## Kontact

den bakker said:


> UCI abandoning rim brakes? They are discussing allowing disk brakes.


They currently allow disc brakes.


----------



## den bakker

Kontact said:


> They currently allow disc brakes.


they are on trial. 
Where has UCI said they want to abandon rim brakes?


----------



## Kontact

den bakker said:


> they are on trial.
> Where has UCI said they want to abandon rim brakes?


Why would the UCI say they are abandoning rim brakes when they haven't yet fully adopted a replacement?


The point is that the UCI adopts and enforces standards that then become universal limitations on what is sold by the industry as a sanctionable racing bikes.

This is the reason there are no more funny bikes and why all TT bikes come with two saddle position points. If the UCI decides to adopt something as a standard, they will generally ban the alternative. They do this in conjunction with the industry to promote bike sales, so the choices often have something to do with marketing trends.


----------



## den bakker

Kontact said:


> Why would the UCI say they are abandoning rim brakes when they haven't yet fully adopted a replacement?
> 
> 
> The point is that the UCI adopts and enforces standards that then become universal limitations on what is sold by the industry as a sanctionable racing bikes.
> 
> This is the reason there are no more funny bikes and why all TT bikes come with two saddle position points. If the UCI decides to adopt something as a standard, they will generally ban the alternative. They do this in conjunction with the industry to promote bike sales, so the choices often have something to do with marketing trends.


ok there's no indication outside your head then that UCI would abandon (I assume you then mean ban?) rim brakes.


----------



## Kontact

den bakker said:


> ok there's no indication outside your head then that UCI would abandon (I assume you then mean ban?) rim brakes.


It has been a discussion that I have heard from others for years as a way of permanently dealing with the carbon rim safety issues.


----------



## den bakker

Kontact said:


> It has been a discussion that I have heard from others for years as a way of permanently dealing with the carbon rim safety issues.


cool. how many of them work in the UCI equipment section?


----------



## Kontact

den bakker said:


> cool. how many of them work in the UCI equipment section?


I guess saying that it was all in my head wasn't an effective tactic for you.


----------



## den bakker

Kontact said:


> I guess saying that it was all in my head wasn't an effective tactic for you.


Should I write shorter sentences for you to grasp the question? 
How many? heck, how many in any role under the UCI?


----------



## Kontact

den bakker said:


> Should I write shorter sentences for you to grasp the question?
> How many? heck, how many in any role under the UCI?


You asked me, insultingly, if this was all in my head, so I answered you. That wasn't good enough, so maybe you should have asked a different question in the first place.

You are free to disagree with me, but I'm not going to engage in a game with you. Especially when you can't be respectful.


----------



## den bakker

Kontact said:


> You asked me, insultingly, if this was all in my head, so I answered you. That wasn't good enough, so maybe you should have asked a different question in the first place.
> 
> You are free to disagree with me, but I'm not going to engage in a game with you. Especially when you can't be respectful.


that's fine. bottom line is there has been no indication from the UCI to abandon rim brakes. 
And I thank for your permission to be free to disagree with you.


----------



## Kontact

den bakker said:


> that's fine. bottom line is there has been no indication from the UCI to abandon rim brakes.
> And I thank for your permission to be free to disagree with you.


Perhaps asking what you wanted to know instead of being rude would have served you better.


----------



## den bakker

Kontact said:


> Perhaps asking what you wanted to know instead of being rude would have served you better.


" Where has UCI said they want to abandon rim brakes? " 
How much clearer did you want it?


----------



## Kontact

den bakker said:


> " Where has UCI said they want to abandon rim brakes? "
> How much clearer did you want it?


Was my answer to that question unclear? Did my answer require you to ask if it was all in my head?

How long do you want to keep pretending that you're being polite?


----------



## den bakker

Kontact said:


> Was my answer to that question unclear? Did my answer require you to ask if it was all in my head?
> 
> How long do you want to keep pretending that you're being polite?


I asked " Where has UCI said they want to abandon rim brakes? " 
you answered:"Why would the UCI say they are abandoning rim brakes when they haven't yet fully adopted a replacement?"
you cant even answer a question but have to make it into a question. talk about being rude. 
The UCI has limited innovation for decades, to preserve the look of a bike. Which is why your 7 speed group can get onto a modern bike. In other words, they have been in no hurry introducing disk brakes, on the contrary. 
have a nice one.


----------



## Kontact

den bakker said:


> I asked " Where has UCI said they want to abandon rim brakes? "
> you answered:"Why would the UCI say they are abandoning rim brakes when they haven't yet fully adopted a replacement?"
> you cant even answer a question but have to make it into a question. talk about being rude.
> The UCI has limited innovation for decades, to preserve the look of a bike. Which is why your 7 speed group can get onto a modern bike. In other words, they have been in no hurry introducing disk brakes, on the contrary.
> have a nice one.


The prevalence of high profile carbon wheels demonstrates the UCI's willingness to change the look of road bikes, and has created some of the impetus to abandon rim brakes because of the discussion in racing circles about braking safety.

If that sounds unlikely to you, that's cool. But since neither of us work for the UCI, I don't think either of us is in a position to lecture the other about what the UCI will never do. I stated my reasons for this becoming reality, and nothing you've said changes the basic points I've made.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> I did not say that discs had no value on any road racing style bike.


Uh, your whole argument in this thread has been about knocking disc brakes on road bikes, you even said that they are not good in the dry, which is what 90% of the time people ride on, so that means they shouldn't be on road bikes. Most people don't buy foul weather bikes, they ride the same bike year round. I got my disc bike because the brakes are better for hardcore descending, and I like the feel of them PERIOD. I typically only ride in the rain unintentionally and that is very rare, so rain was the least of my criteria for disc.




> What I said was that I don't want the UCI to abandon rim brakes because the industry will follow, and I described exactly why that would be unfortunate. Over and over I stated my support for using whatever brake wherever people wanted.


And you realize that had or if the UCI decides to not allow disc brakes, that screws those of us who want or already have disc brakes for the future just the same. Maybe the bike industry should stop building bikes around racing and give consumers what they want



> But the pro-disc contingent makes their argument by grossly exaggerating the difficiencies of rim brakes while turning a blind eye to the disadvantages disc. That wouldn't be so frustrating if those folks could state their case without swearing at me.


You have to be F**king kidding right?!?!?! The anti-disc contingent constantly are exaggerating and making claims that aren't true about disc brakes, and most of these people have never even tried them in any kind of a 
serious manner. The anti-disc contingent are constantly inserting themselves into any discussion about disc brakes, you can't even ask about a particular disc bike without someone coming and crapping all over them. They exaggerate claims about the weight, aero and maintenance, etc.. And this is the reason why people are getting heated with you because we are sick of people spreading misinformation. From the very beginning you claimed that disc bikes forks don't absorb bumps and don't handle as well, and that is just not true at all! And when folks say make comments like "good descenders don't need disc" or refer to the idea that only beginners or Freds need disc, that is just plain insulting.
Now on the other hand, I have not seen pro disc people going into threads about rim brake bikes telling people who much rim brakes suck, etc. And I have also not seen any pro disc folk exaggerate the problems with rim brakes, nor do they try to convince anyone to buy disc, *in fact most of the time we are on the defensive trying to correct people from spreading misinformation.
*



> If all the parties involved in this discussion acted like grown-ups, the discussion would have moved on to dealing with the deficiencies of both kinds of systems and possible solutions instead of insults and character assassination.
> 
> I'm here because I like bicycles. I could go anywhere if I just wanted to listen to kids squabble and brag about themselves. But congrats on being so funny and all.



Get off your high horse. No one has tried to character assonate you any more than you have done to others. If you are so upset by the tone of the discussion, maybe you should go to your safe space or something LOL


>


----------



## Fajita Dave

11spd said:


> Hi Dave,
> In bold...surprising. All the disc brake bikes I have owned have been higher maintenance than rim brakes.
> Does your mtb have hydraulic discs? If so which brand and model? I would like to research it.
> Thanks
> PS: as to your last sentence, even though disc brake owners trivialize performance loss of disc brakes, and granted it is small as you correctly say, the point I believe is, it isn't 0. So for guys like me who live in flatish country, a no brainer. I prefer 0 performance loss given a choice. This nuance is really the difference in the two brake types I believe.


Shimano XT M785 brakes with resin ice tech pads on the same cheapo rotors my bike came with. After 1,100 miles I had to replace the brake pads. Before the new pads went in I cleaned/lubed the pistons and bled the system. I have no doubt on a road bike they'd make it past 3,000 miles between pad changes. I could see the pistons getting a little sticky in that amount of time. Easy fix: drop the wheel out, remove pads, push the pistons out a little, clean pistons with a cloth and relube with mineral oil. Then push the pistons back and reinstall pads.

I don't use the brakes as much as most riders on descents and I weigh 165 geared up so I'm not excessivly hard on them. I do alternate between front and back where terrain allows to give one end or the other time to cool. With that being said I have had them hot enough to warp the rotors but never had any fade. I've descended a 4 mile mountain gravel road with speeds up to 40mph with braking into tight hair pin turns. They do howl when they get that hot but only squeal when wet.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Uh, your whole argument in this thread has been about knocking disc brakes on road bikes, you even said that they are not good in the dry, which is what 90% of the time people ride on, so that means they shouldn't be on road bikes.


No, I didn't say that. Quote me. 

I am continuously puzzled at how I can write one thing and then be told I said something completely different. Are you doing that to make an argument, or are you just reading that poorly?




> And you realize that had or if the UCI decides to not allow disc brakes, that screws those of us who want or already have disc brakes for the future just the same. Maybe the bike industry should stop building bikes around racing and give consumers what they want


Discs moved to road bikes came about without any input from the UCI or racers, and it will continue without either. More types of bikes use discs, cantilevers and drums than use center mount rim calipers. This is just an absurd statement on your part.




> You have to be F**king kidding right?!?!?! The anti-disc contingent constantly are exaggerating and making claims that aren't true about disc brakes, and most of these people have never even tried them in any kind of a
> serious manner. The anti-disc contingent are constantly inserting themselves into any discussion about disc brakes, you can't even ask about a particular disc bike without someone coming and crapping all over them. They exaggerate claims about the weight, aero and maintenance, etc.. And this is the reason why people are getting heated with you because we are sick of people spreading misinformation. From the very beginning you claimed that disc bikes forks don't absorb bumps and don't handle as well, and that is just not true at all! And when folks say make comments like "good descenders don't need disc" or refer to the idea that only beginners or Freds need disc, that is just plain insulting.
> Now on the other hand, I have not seen pro disc people going into threads about rim brake bikes telling people who much rim brakes suck, etc. And I have also not seen any pro disc folk exaggerate the problems with rim brakes, nor do they try to convince anyone to buy disc, *in fact most of the time we are on the defensive trying to correct people from spreading misinformation.
> *


I can only assume you failed to read the fanciful content of post 301. 

Other than that, my comments were restricted to the behavior seen in this thread. I am not aware or responsible for the general behavior of anyone besides me, so other people "inserting themselves" into disc threads does not excuse rude behavior toward me. I'm not at fault for anyone else's sins.

And if you are really interested in not "spreading misinformation", you should start using the quote feature so you don't keep crediting me with things I didn't say.




> No one has tried to character assonate you any more than you have done to others. If you are so upset by the tone of the discussion, maybe you should go to your safe space or something LOL
> >


Again, we come to the part were you can call out things you don't like by quoting them. This makes it very clear when you actually have an issue vs. 11spd's brand of "humor".

And if you don't like that I call out the crass behavior that several of you have exhibited, you are also welcome to leave. I have no idea why adults would act the way I've seen in this thread.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> No, I didn't say that. Quote me.





Kontact said:


> Discs are great for on off use and wet, but not long continuous dry use.


And another 



Kontact said:


> Disc brakes on MTBs make a lot of sense because of mud, but road bikes don't require mud clearance, so why build a road bike like a MTB?


You didn't actually have to say word for word that you think "discs have no value on any road racing style bike" for us to know what you have been saying :idea:




> I am continuously puzzled at how I can write one thing and then be told I said something completely different. Are you doing that to make an argument, or are you just reading that poorly?


Yes, everyone else here can't read but you, funny how that works




> Discs moved to road bikes came about without any input from the UCI or racers, and it will continue without either. More types of bikes use discs, cantilevers and drums than use center mount rim calipers. This is just an absurd statement on your part.


That is irrelevant and you miss the point. I don't care about the UCI or what racers want, I ( and I am sure others) had been waiting for disc on road bikes for long before they came out, and had the UCI ruled against them from the get go, the manufactures likely wouldn't have built the bikes I wanted. in fact for a while there it was a real "nail biter" per say because we didn't know what would happen and we didn't know if bike companies were going to cancel production of the rumored disc bikes ( There were articles discussing this in fact). And _if_ they were to ban them again, there is a chance that the manufacturers would abandon making these bikes. So the point is, I and other disc brake proponents have the same fear as you do that rim brakes will go away, except with rim you have decades worth of access to rim brake components vs disc which are still in their infancy on road bikes.





> And if you are really interested in not "spreading misinformation", you should start using the quote feature so you don't keep crediting me with things I didn't say.


I have quoted you throughout this thread. 


But I am not going to dig through 15 pages of this thread to find an old quote every time we rehash this 




> And if you don't like that I call out the crass behavior that several of you have exhibited, you are also welcome to leave. I have no idea why adults would act the way I've seen in this thread.


Well it's you that seems to have a problem with others behavior, so perhaps it's you that is welcome to leave. Again, get off your high horse, you have been acting quite arrogant and condescending throughout this discussion (and then you wonder why people are "rude" to you)



,


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> And another
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't actually have to say word for word that you think "discs have no value on any road racing style bike" for us to know what you have been saying :idea:


The context of the first quote is that "long continuous use" of disc brakes (like on descending switchbacks at high speeds) can lead to brake fade. Brake fade in the Alps is lethal.

The other quote was an explanation of why hub brakes, like discs, are so valuable for MTBs - because mud gets on the rim brake track. You've misunderstood that quote to mean they have no value on road bikes, when what I was stating was why they became so popular for MTBs and cross - because of rim contamination road bikes don't suffer from. They fixed a problem that road bikes don't have.

I didn't say that riding discs on the road is bad per se. I said that discs have a thermal load problem because they are small, and that one of the principle advantages of discs - cleanliness, doesn't really matter for road bikes. Especially when hub braking has certain disadvantages for frame and fork design.



> Yes, everyone else here can't read but you, funny how that works


No, several people in this thread seemed to understand me perfectly, regardless of whether they agreed.



> That is irrelevant and you miss the point. I don't care about the UCI or what racers want, I ( and I am sure others) had been waiting for disc on road bikes for long before they came out, and had the UCI ruled against them from the get go, the manufactures likely wouldn't have built the bikes I wanted. in fact for a while there it was a real "nail biter" per say because we didn't know what would happen and we didn't know if bike companies were going to cancel production of the rumored disc bikes ( There were articles discussing this in fact). And _if_ they were to ban them again, there is a chance that the manufacturers would abandon making these bikes. So the point is, I and other disc brake proponents have the same fear as you do that rim brakes will go away, except with rim you have decades worth of access to rim brake components vs disc which are still in their infancy on road bikes.


And I'm saying that is a peculiar fear, given the cross and MTB market. You are never going to lack for disc compatible road shifters, hubs or calipers because they are just coming from cross and MTB. Race style disc bikes will continue, mainly because people like them and they are selling, but even if those somehow dried up, you could still get a custom that rides like a Venge if you wanted one - because the parts are available.

The opposite situation does not exist because no other kind of bike uses the forks, hub spacing or brakes of racing bikes. When they're gone, they're gone. And with them the great ride qualities that you don't care about, but many other people do.


I don't think road bikes and rim brakes a perfect - especially with carbon rims. But I do think that they could simply be improved rather than grafting an MTB solution to fix a road problem, since that solution creates problems of its own.

Would you really have issue with a rim brake that stopped/modulated as well as disc? I would hope not, and I don't see any particular reason they couldn't. Someone needs to do the work rather than borrow an ill fitting solution from the off road world. Road bikes are ideal for a rim-sized "disc" brake.


----------



## Maelochs

Folks ... at some point you will realize that the pain of bashing your head into a wall stops pretty soon after you stop bashing your head into a wall.

If nothing else, starting a new thread would make it easier to reference and retrieve quotes.

Even the "War to End All Wars" had a follow-up.


----------



## MoPho

kontact said:


> the context of the first quote is that "long continuous use" of disc brakes (like on descending switchbacks at high speeds) can lead to brake fade. Brake fade in the alps is lethal.
> 
> The other quote was an explanation of why hub brakes, like discs, are so valuable for mtbs - because mud gets on the rim brake track. You've misunderstood that quote to mean they have no value on road bikes, when what i was stating was why they became so popular for mtbs and cross - because of rim contamination road bikes don't suffer from. They fixed a problem that road bikes don't have.


Your entire position in this thread has been to argue against disc brakes, in that context, all your comments are an attempt to prove that disc brakes shouldn't be on road bikes, in fact in that MTB quote you question why build a bike with disc brakes, i.e. it makes no sense to you. Stop trying to talk your way out of it, there is no other way to take your comments.

And blowing a tire can be lethal too, but of course that _never_ happens... 

Brake, whether rim or disc need to cool down with prolonged use, it's the same for cars with disc brakes. 





> No, several people in this thread seemed to understand me perfectly, regardless of whether they agreed.



Who, your mom? LOL

Again, when the whole reason you are even here is to argue against disc brakes, then everything you say will be read in that context. Maybe you should have taken a different tack 



> And i'm saying that is a peculiar fear, given the cross and mtb market. You are never going to lack for disc compatible road shifters, hubs or calipers because they are just coming from cross and mtb. Race style disc bikes will continue, mainly because people like them and they are selling, but even if those somehow dried up, you could still get a custom that rides like a venge if you wanted one - because the parts are available.
> 
> The opposite situation does not exist because no other kind of bike uses the forks, hub spacing or brakes of racing bikes. When they're gone, they're gone. And with them the great ride qualities that you don't care about, but many other people do.



Uh, you can still get a custom or used ride if you wanted one - because the parts will be available. Right back at ya.
And again with the ride qualities  you don't even know what difference the ride quality is or isn't from disc brakes, you are merely jumping to conclusions to fit your bias. As I noted at the very beginning, disc brakes have been coming on endurance bikes that are known for their good ride qualities, this fact disproves your notion that the frames and forks can't be tuned to be good.
And I never said I don't care about it,what I've said all along that the wheels and tires do more to affect ride quality than the frame and fork do and that a bike is a sum of its parts, you can't pinpoint to one thing as a controlling factor. End of story. Good by!


.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> Your entire position in this thread has been to argue against disc brakes, in that context, all your comments are an attempt to prove that disc brakes shouldn't be on road bikes, in fact in that MTB quote you question why build a bike with disc brakes, i.e. it makes no sense to you. Stop trying to talk your way out of it, there is no other way to take your comments.
> 
> And blowing a tire can be lethal too, but of course that _never_ happens...
> 
> Brake, whether rim or disc need to cool down with prolonged use, it's the same for cars with disc brakes.
> 
> Again, when the whole reason you are even here is to argue against disc brakes, then everything you say will be read in that context. Maybe you should have taken a different tack


My posts in this thread have been to argue that disc brakes are largely inappropriate on road racing bicycles of the UCI sanctioned variety because their universal adoption would mean the loss of some of the best qualities any road bicycle has.

You may disagree with my individual points, but I don't see why you'd expect me to advocate for disc brakes if I feel they harm some of the qualities of road race bikes.


And it is funny you bring up cars, because what do racing cars and motorcycles have? Enormous rotors to deal with the heat load of continuous high speed braking. Which is yet another reason I favor 700mm "discs" over 140mm ones.




> Uh, you can still get a custom or used ride if you wanted one - because the parts will be available. Right back at ya.


Why would Shimano make rim brakes or 130mm hubs if there are no bikes being made for them? This is what I mean about a failure to follow the conversation.



> And again with the ride qualities  you don't even know what difference the ride quality is or isn't from disc brakes, you are merely jumping to conclusions to fit your bias. As I noted at the very beginning, disc brakes have been coming on endurance bikes that are known for their good ride qualities, this fact disproves your notion that the frames and forks can't be tuned to be good.
> And I never said I don't care about it,what I've said all along that the wheels and tires do more to affect ride quality than the frame and fork do and that a bike is a sum of its parts, you can't pinpoint to one thing as a controlling factor. End of story. Good by!
> 
> 
> .


As I already said, I am not surprised that you don't value the ride qualities of a great fork and road frame since you have never experienced that difference. It is like you don't believe in Eskimos because you've never been to Alaska, and wouldn't care to find out different. This would be a far different conversation if you didn't have such an unshakable belief that every bike you've ridden is the whole story when it comes to road bike qualities. I've literally ridden hundreds of bikes and worked in this industry since the late '80s. You have not.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> The context of the first quote is that "long continuous use" of disc brakes (like on descending switchbacks at high speeds) can lead to brake fade. Brake fade in the Alps is lethal.
> 
> The other quote was an explanation of why hub brakes, like discs, are so valuable for MTBs - because mud gets on the rim brake track. You've misunderstood that quote to mean they have no value on road bikes, when what I was stating was why they became so popular for MTBs and cross - because of rim contamination road bikes don't suffer from. They fixed a problem that road bikes don't have.
> 
> I didn't say that riding discs on the road is bad per se. I said that discs have a thermal load problem because they are small, and that one of the principle advantages of discs - cleanliness, doesn't really matter for road bikes. Especially when hub braking has certain disadvantages for frame and fork design.
> 
> 
> No, several people in this thread seemed to understand me perfectly, regardless of whether they agreed.
> 
> 
> And I'm saying that is a peculiar fear, given the cross and MTB market. You are never going to lack for disc compatible road shifters, hubs or calipers because they are just coming from cross and MTB. Race style disc bikes will continue, mainly because people like them and they are selling, but even if those somehow dried up, you could still get a custom that rides like a Venge if you wanted one - because the parts are available.
> 
> The opposite situation does not exist because no other kind of bike uses the forks, hub spacing or brakes of racing bikes. When they're gone, they're gone. And with them the great ride qualities that you don't care about, but many other people do.
> 
> 
> I don't think road bikes and rim brakes a perfect - especially with carbon rims. But I do think that they could simply be improved rather than grafting an MTB solution to fix a road problem, since that solution creates problems of its own.
> 
> Would you really have issue with a rim brake that stopped/modulated as well as disc? I would hope not, and I don't see any particular reason they couldn't. Someone needs to do the work rather than borrow an ill fitting solution from the off road world. Road bikes are ideal for a rim-sized "disc" brake.


You would do well to actually ride a road bike in the mountains. If you followed that experience with riding a road bike with hydraulic disc brakes in the mountains, It would cause curiosity about the physics involved that allow disc brakes to respond the same every time and to provide consistent deceleration in direct proportion to lever input--something that doesn't exist on rim brakes.

Nearly everyone denigrating hydraulic road discs have one thing in common. They have no experience on them and therefore have never experienced or developed a curiosity regarding their precision and consistency.

With a little research you could find out why using high pressure on a small diameter disc will always provide better/smoother results than low pressure on a large diameter disc. Heat dissipation and load do determine practical limitations to that reality.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> And it is funny you bring up cars, because what do racing cars and motorcycles have? Enormous rotors to deal with the heat load of continuous high speed braking. Which is yet another reason I favor 700mm "discs" over 140mm ones.


You don't want to try and debate cars with me. And they have big brakes because they are heavy. And they sure aren't using their rims to act as a brake, the disc is mounted to the hub, and is in the airflow for better cooling. As it should be.
BTW, I have a very small and lightweight sports car and it has tiny brakes and out stops many sports cars with big brakes. Bicycles are small and light.





> Why would Shimano make rim brakes or 130mm hubs if there are no bikes being made for them? This is what I mean about a failure to follow the conversation.


 Did you miss where I mentioned the decades of parts that will still be available? Follow the conversation




> As I already said, I am not surprised that you don't value the ride qualities of a great fork and road frame since you have never experienced that difference.


And again, you are making condescending assumptions about me in an attempt to belittle my experience 


I am done wasting my time with you, enjoy your rim brakes..... While you still can, muhahahahaaaaa!!!!




.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> You would do well to actually ride a road bike in the mountains. If you followed that experience with riding a road bike with hydraulic disc brakes in the mountains, It would cause curiosity about the physics involved that allow disc brakes to respond the same every time and to provide consistent deceleration in direct proportion to lever input--something that doesn't exist on rim brakes.
> 
> Nearly everyone denigrating hydraulic road discs have one thing in common. They have no experience on them and therefore have never experienced or developed a curiosity regarding their precision and consistency.
> 
> With a little research you could find out why using high pressure on a small diameter disc will always provide better/smoother results than low pressure on a large diameter disc. Heat dissipation and load do determine practical limitations to that reality.


That may be true of the disc and rotor, but there are hydraulic rim brakes as well that display similar qualities. Have you tried them?

Part of the reason disc feel so smooth is because of all the flexing going on in the spokes and fork that damp the braking action. But that damping causes the fork and wheel to have to be built for those forces.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

No, disc brakes are smooth because it is a precision system, a machined surface with concentrated power with a rigid caliper, quite unlike the rubber-on-rim-and-flexy-caliper imprecision system. The spokes add mushiness and noise.

I have used hydraulic rims brakes, yes. I had the Magura rim brakes on my Klein back around the year 2000. It was definitely in the 'slightly better than cable rim brakes but 90% worse than hydro disc brakes' category. There were advocates for those hydro rim brakes at the time, more because they were an easy way to upgrade a rim braked bike. But those brakes rightfully disappeared from the market as every single mtn bike made today has disc brakes - because of the dramatically amazingly better braking quality.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> You don't want to try and debate cars with me. And they have big brakes because they are heavy. And they sure aren't using their rims to act as a brake, the disc is mounted to the hub, and is in the airflow for better cooling. As it should be.
> BTW, I have a very small and lightweight sports car and it has tiny brakes and out stops many sports cars with big brakes. Bicycles are small and light.


Again, you fail to understand or extend your knowledge beyond your personal experience.

Real sports cars and racing cars are both very light and have large rotors. Not because small rotors won't stop, but because small rotors fall victim to brake fade. My sports car only weighs 3200 pounds but has 13" rotors. A Ferrari will be even lighter and have even bigger rotors. Racing motorcycles as well. Frequent hard braking requires larger rotors to handle the thermal load.





> Did you miss where I mentioned the decades of parts that will still be available? Follow the conversation


How do used and old stock parts begin to compare to the availability and improvements in new parts? No need to answer - they don't.





> And again, you are making condescending assumptions about me in an attempt to belittle my experience


I don't need to make any "assumptions". _My sports cars has tiny brakes_ - that was really illuminating. Spend a lot of time on the track, do you?


----------



## Kontact

BCSaltchucker said:


> No, disc brakes are smooth because it is a precision system, a machined surface with concentrated power with a rigid caliper, quite unlike the rubber-on-rim-and-flexy-caliper imprecision system. The spokes add mushiness and noise.
> 
> I have used hydraulic rims brakes, yes. I had the Magura rim brakes on my Klein back around the year 2000. It was definitely in the 'slightly better than cable rim brakes but 90% worse than hydro disc brakes' category. There were advocates for those hydro rim brakes at the time, more because they were an easy way to upgrade a rim braked bike. But those brakes rightfully disappeared from the market as every single mtn bike made today has disc brakes - because of the dramatically amazingly better braking quality.


They also disappeared because of mud.

Hydraulic road calipers have been coming on stock bikes lately. Built a fair number myself.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> Again, you fail to understand or extend your knowledge beyond your personal experience.
> 
> Real sports cars and racing cars are both very light and have large rotors. Not because small rotors won't stop, but because small rotors fall victim to brake fade. My sports car only weight 3200 pounds but has 13" rotors. A Ferrari will be even lighter hand have even bigger rotors. Racing motorcycles as well. Frequent hard braking requires larger rotors to handle thermal load.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do used and old stock parts begin to compare to the availability and improvements in new parts? No need to answer - they don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need to make any "assumptions". _My sports cars has small brakes_ - that was really illuminating. Spend a lot of time on the track, do you?





3200lbs is a pig, Try 1100lbs












And racing cars and motorcycles still have a lot of weight to stop from much higher speeds with much more duration and repeatability, there is no comparison to a bicycle. 






.


----------



## Kontact

MoPho said:


> And racing cars and motorcycles still have a lot of weight to stop from much higher speeds with much more duration and repeatability, there is no comparison to a bicycle.
> 
> .


There is no bicycle that generates as much potential energy as a road bike descending a mountain. All brakes do is turn 60 mph into heat, and that heat has to go somewhere.

But it also commonly happens with MTB DH bikes with 203mm rotors.

Here's a good article where Shimano and other company reps discuss the issues of brake fade, fork reinforcement, limited savings in disc only rims and wheel reinforcement:
https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/road-bike-disc-brakes-are-coming-but-will-they-work/

Favorite quote:


Magura said:


> With rim brakes you already have the biggest possible rotor on a wheel: the rim!


----------



## Fajita Dave

Kontact said:


> There is no bicycle that generates as much potential energy as a road bike descending a mountain. All brakes do is turn 60 mph into heat, and that heat has to go somewhere.
> 
> But it also commonly happens with MTB DH bikes with 203mm rotors.
> 
> Here's a good article where Shimano and other company reps discuss the issues of brake fade, fork reinforcement, limited savings in disc only rims and wheel reinforcement:
> https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/road-bike-disc-brakes-are-coming-but-will-they-work/
> 
> Favorite quote:


That article is 5 years old. Disc brakes even on mountain bikes have improved _dramatically_ in the past 5 years.

If you're hoping the brake failure at the top of the article would help drive your anti-disc stance home then you are sadly mistaken. The brakes used in that crash weren't designed for high speed and heavy loads. They were designed specifically for cyclocross.

I'm sure someone on this forum could come up with a reasonable mathematical formula showing how large a brake rotor may need to be in order to adequately stop a 220lbs bike/rider vs a 3,000lbs car. Seems to me two 6" rotors stopping 220ish lbs is dramatically overbuilt compared to four 13" rotors stopping a massive 3,000lbs car.


----------



## Kontact

Fajita Dave said:


> That article is 5 years old. Disc brakes even on mountain bikes have improved _dramatically_ in the past 5 years.
> 
> If you're hoping the brake failure at the top of the article would help drive your anti-disc stance home then you are sadly mistaken. The brakes used in that crash weren't designed for high speed and heavy loads. They were designed specifically for cyclocross.
> 
> I'm sure someone on this forum could come up with a reasonable mathematical formula showing how large a brake rotor may need to be in order to adequately stop a 220lbs bike/rider vs a 3,000lbs car. Seems to me two 6" rotors stopping 220ish lbs is dramatically overbuilt compared to four 13" rotors stopping a massive 3,000lbs car.


You know, I read the article too. It says right at the outset that the author's cross brakes were not built for road riding.

I posted the article for the information about the engineering issues that Shimano, Hayes, TRP and Magura reps contributed. They talk about the issues with frames and forks, brake fade issues with much larger rotors on DH bikes. Those issues didn't go away - they're basic physics. The strides made are in addressing those issues, they didn't just evaporate. Did you read the _whole _article?


As far as comparing rotors (and basic physics), you're really not understanding the issue if you think a 6" bike rotor is comparable to a 12" car rotor. The issue is mass, not diameter. Car rotors and the hubs they bolted to weigh 20 pounds each. The heaviest bike rotor is maybe 3 oz. How much heat do you think 20 pounds of steel can absorb compared to 3 oz?


----------



## ceugene

The OEM 160mm rotors are all around 4-5oz and no, heat dissipation is not something that is really a problem with the correct component choices. I'm fairly certain I could drag my brakes down any of the mountains here (Hamilton, Diablo, Tamalpais) with sintered pads and nothing terrible would happen.

The fluid would not boil over. The rotors would not warp. The pads would not glaze over.

That's because I'm not using terrible weight-weenie Ashima rotors combined with resin pads like the guy in the article.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> Uh, your whole argument in this thread has been about knocking disc brakes on road bikes, you even said that they are not good in the dry, which is what 90% of the time people ride on, so that means they shouldn't be on road bikes. Most people don't buy foul weather bikes, they ride the same bike year round. I got my disc bike because the brakes are better for hardcore descending, and I like the feel of them PERIOD. I typically only ride in the rain unintentionally and that is very rare, so rain was the least of my criteria for disc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you realize that had or if the UCI decides to not allow disc brakes, that screws those of us who want or already have disc brakes for the future just the same. Maybe the bike industry should stop building bikes around racing and give consumers what they want
> 
> 
> 
> You have to be F**king kidding right?!?!?! The anti-disc contingent constantly are exaggerating and making claims that aren't true about disc brakes, and most of these people have never even tried them in any kind of a
> serious manner. The anti-disc contingent are constantly inserting themselves into any discussion about disc brakes, you can't even ask about a particular disc bike without someone coming and crapping all over them. They exaggerate claims about the weight, aero and maintenance, etc.. And this is the reason why people are getting heated with you because we are sick of people spreading misinformation. From the very beginning you claimed that disc bikes forks don't absorb bumps and don't handle as well, and that is just not true at all! And when folks say make comments like "good descenders don't need disc" or refer to the idea that only beginners or Freds need disc, that is just plain insulting.
> Now on the other hand, I have not seen pro disc people going into threads about rim brake bikes telling people who much rim brakes suck, etc. And I have also not seen any pro disc folk exaggerate the problems with rim brakes, nor do they try to convince anyone to buy disc, *in fact most of the time we are on the defensive trying to correct people from spreading misinformation.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get off your high horse. No one has tried to character assonate you any more than you have done to others. If you are so upset by the tone of the discussion, maybe you should go to your safe space or something LOL
> 
> 
> >


Just want to say, really a good post in rebuttal to Kontact even though I have been mostly pro rim brakes. The thing about opinion is, it is almost universally based upon the parochial lens a given poster looks through. Even though I prefer rim brakes on road (not off...for even gravel, cross or mtb) it is because I ride in flat country and rim brakes stop fine, are less expensive, almost no maintenance etc. So no need here.

I will express surprise which I have not stated before. My surprise is, that the pro peloton hasn't universally switched to disc brakes. Yes of course discs are on trial for concern about cutting riders...keep in mind that racers end up on the deck in piles all the time and so a viable concern even though I believe it would be a rare occurrence that a disc would slash a rider....chain ring could too of course...more discs on a bike, a higher probability, but that isn't why. Rather, pro ride at speeds amateurs only dream of including 70 and yes even 80 mph descents have been recorded and of course like last year's TdF, they were descending over 60 mph in the rain. To me, discs are clearly better for high speed descending which is routine for pros riding in Europe in particular. So if even an uneven playing field between pros and amateurs, even though I never see descending speeds over 35 mph routinely unless I travel to the mountains, for pros, to me, it is most surprising with the ban lifted, more aren't on disc brakes especially with the UCI weight limit of 15 lbs which can be achieved with disc brakes in spite of slight weight penalty. Perhaps it will be a slow embrace of disc brakes in pro racing.

PS: where I take exception to the article written aside from it being dated and technology through development improving each year....rigors of pro riding could easily resolve disk size/mass relative to fluid volume heat sink resulting in fluid cavitation and braking loss. This may have a modest weight penalty for effectively sized rotors, caliper and brake lever system spec'ing a given fluid volume size, but improvement in this area continues. One size doesn't fit all. Racing cars and motorcycles for example spec more powerful brakes to ward off heat and brake fade compared to conventional passenger cars for example.

So the brake fade issue is really a non issue for a properly spec'ed hydraulic disc braking system. Always comes back to weight....size of rotor, size of caliper and fluid volume based upon conductive heat transfer through the caliper. Current hydraulic discs sold on road bikes don't suffer copious braking loss/fade due to heat even with prolonged descents in most riding conditions.


----------



## 11spd

Maelochs said:


> Folks ... at some point you will realize that the pain of bashing your head into a wall stops pretty soon after you stop bashing your head into a wall.
> 
> If nothing else, starting a new thread would make it easier to reference and retrieve quotes.
> 
> Even the "War to End All Wars" had a follow-up.


Maelochks,
Will give you a tip and this may help others as well if they struggle with the architecture of this website for retrieving posts. If you go to near the top of the page, there is the word "Display" with adjacent down arrow to right. Select down arrow and switch to "Linear Mode". This will organize posts in chronological descending order from past to most recent. If this is the source of your frustration for example I had initially with this forum in staying topical, hope that helps.

Btw, I do enjoy your writing ability and unlike many, you see irony where others don't which shows there is hope for humanity....though some days are dark as was yesterday in Tx. Society has changed born out of greater frustration, anger and resulting division which is reflected in social discourse and unconscionable violence. A PC climate ostensibly based upon censorship which obfuscates true differences in people both good and bad...this lie fomenting much of the basis for societies' anger and dis-ease.


----------



## Fajita Dave

Kontact said:


> I posted the article for the information about the engineering issues that Shimano, Hayes, TRP and Magura reps contributed. They talk about the issues with frames and forks, brake fade issues with much larger rotors on DH bikes. Those issues didn't go away - they're basic physics. The strides made are in addressing those issues, they didn't just evaporate. Did you read the _whole _article?
> 
> 
> As far as comparing rotors (and basic physics), you're really not understanding the issue if you think a 6" bike rotor is comparable to a 12" car rotor. The issue is mass, not diameter. Car rotors and the hubs they bolted to weigh 20 pounds each. The heaviest bike rotor is maybe 3 oz. How much heat do you think 20 pounds of steel can absorb compared to 3 oz?


I've read the whole article three years ago when I first saw it and I read it again just for the sake of doing it. Especially with Shimano Ice Tech pads and rotors the heat dissipation problem seems to be gone. Since I don't have a disc road bike I don't have personal experience with it. If it were still a problem I imagine we'd be hearing about brake failures all the time. So I would assume fade is now on par with when your tires would explode using rim brakes.

Mass and heat dissipation are two seperate things. Having more mass could act as an excellent heat sink for prolonged loads but will usually dissipate heat slower. For a bicycle brake obviously the low mass could make prolonged heavy loads a problem but they will dissipate heat quickly. As I said above the lack of brake failures with the thousands of disc bikes on the road now makes it seem like theres no problem here.


----------



## MoPho

Kontact said:


> Real sports cars and racing cars are both very light and have large rotors. Not because small rotors won't stop, but because small rotors fall victim to brake fade. My sports car only weight 3200 pounds but has 13" rotors. A Ferrari will be even lighter hand have even bigger rotors. Racing motorcycles as well. Frequent hard braking requires larger rotors to handle thermal load....
> 
> ... I don't need to make any "assumptions". My sports cars has small brakes - that was really illuminating. Spend a lot of time on the track, do you?


BTW to add; an F1 car which currently has a minimum weight of 1605lbs and stops from 186mph in 4s (that's way more energy than a bike or a street car) only has 10.9inch rotors (my car, which is in track spec, has 10" rotors and brake fade is not an issue), a current Ferrari 488 weighs 3362lbs and has 15.7" in front rotors. More weight, bigger rotors. Bikes are light. 
And obviously materials and cooling play into how brake fade happens too. 


.


----------



## Kontact

Fajita Dave said:


> I've read the whole article three years ago when I first saw it and I read it again just for the sake of doing it. Especially with Shimano Ice Tech pads and rotors the heat dissipation problem seems to be gone. Since I don't have a disc road bike I don't have personal experience with it. If it were still a problem I imagine we'd be hearing about brake failures all the time. So I would assume fade is now on par with when your tires would explode using rim brakes.
> 
> Mass and heat dissipation are two seperate things. Having more mass could act as an excellent heat sink for prolonged loads but will usually dissipate heat slower. For a bicycle brake obviously the low mass could make prolonged heavy loads a problem but they will dissipate heat quickly. As I said above the lack of brake failures with the thousands of disc bikes on the road now makes it seem like theres no problem here.


Mass and heat dissipation are related by surface area, which is why rotors that will see a lot of braking are larger in diameter - a larger diameter rotor adds mass while keeping the same proportion of surface area as the smaller rotor. So two discs of the same thicness are going to radiate the same percentage of their stored heat per minute, but the larger rotor can accept more BTUs before it starts fading. A big rotor is like a larger bathtub that also has a proportionately larger drain.


----------



## Fajita Dave

Kontact said:


> Mass and heat dissipation are related by surface area, which is why rotors that will see a lot of braking are larger in diameter - a larger diameter rotor adds mass while keeping the same proportion of surface area as the smaller rotor. So two discs of the same thicness are going to radiate the same percentage of their stored heat per minute, but the larger rotor can accept more BTUs before it starts fading. A big rotor is like a larger bathtub that also has a proportionately larger drain.


Which is why the ice tech rotors have more surface area dedicated to cooling around the inside of the braking surface.

I've done multiple hard stops on my 31lbs mountain bike down steep descents from upwards of 40mph with cheap 180mm rotors but a good set of XT brakes. Fade has never been a problem and I've had them howling from heat. I imagine with ice tech rotors it would be extremely difficult to over heat the braking system to the point your brakes will fade.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> That may be true of the disc and rotor, but there are hydraulic rim brakes as well that display similar qualities. Have you tried them?
> 
> Part of the reason disc feel so smooth is because of all the flexing going on in the spokes and fork that damp the braking action. But that damping causes the fork and wheel to have to be built for those forces.


Are you just pulling this stuff out of your dark place or is this an attempt at humor?
I ask because your comments make it clear that you have no experience with the performance of hydraulic disc road brakes. Your apparent fixation with alleged fork issues is both humorous and nonsense. I notice no difference in the ride quality of my Tarmac SL3 with rims and my cannondale hi-mod with discs. In addition, several of the people I ride with have also converted and not one of them has ever commented about a difference in ride quality. All have been impressed immediately with both the consistency and the precision improvement over rim brakes. To be fair, we live for climbing and descending and I doubt that any of us would feel a need for discs if we did our riding in situations where neither mattered.


----------



## Kontact

Fajita Dave said:


> Which is why the ice tech rotors have more surface area dedicated to cooling around the inside of the braking surface.


Holes increase surface area while decreasing mass. There's a balance between the two. 

It is certainly possible to equip a bicycle with rotors large enough to never overheat, but even downhill bikes are still known to fade sometimes, and road bikes do not use rotors that are DH size.

For most people, that isn't an issue. For someone descending the Pyrenees with the peloton chasing them, it definitely could be.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> Are you just pulling this stuff out of your dark place or is this an attempt at humor?
> I ask because your comments make it clear that you have no experience with the performance of hydraulic disc road brakes. Your apparent fixation with alleged fork issues is both humorous and nonsense. I notice no difference in the ride quality of my Tarmac SL3 with rims and my cannondale hi-mod with discs. In addition, several of the people I ride with have also converted and not one of them has ever commented about a difference in ride quality. All have been impressed immediately with both the consistency and the precision improvement over rim brakes. To be fair, we live for climbing and descending and I doubt that any of us would feel a need for discs if we did our riding in situations where neither mattered.


Are you certain that your experience is greater than anyone else's, or just the value of your opinion?

I've never ridden an SL3, so I can't qualify if it is as comfortable as a Parlee with an Enve fork or a Seven with an Alpha Q. Can you? Lots of very over-stiff bikes being sold today. Tapered steerers, BBright, etc. 


But I do appreciate your candor and potty mouth.


----------



## Maelochs

I'd get further involved, but i don't have an engineering degree like y'all.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Holes increase surface area while decreasing mass. There's a balance between the two.
> 
> It is certainly possible to equip a bicycle with rotors large enough to never overheat, but even downhill bikes are still known to fade sometimes, and road bikes do not use rotors that are DH size.
> 
> For most people, that isn't an issue. For someone descending the *Pyrenees with the peloton chasing them, it definitely could be*.


Point of contention about your disc brake fade preoccupation aside from an article from 5 years ago where the rider's braking system was poorly spec'ed is...you have no proof of your conviction. Where is the proof? People that own hydraulic brake bikes here who live in the mountains don't have this issue. The GCN video of the new Canyon disc bike tested in a very rigorous descent the testers praised had no brake fade.
There in lies the disagreement. Disc brakes on a limited basis have been raced in the TdF. Brake fade is a non issue for modern spec hydraulic disc brake road bikes.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Point of contention about your disc brake fade preoccupation aside from an article from 5 years ago where the rider's braking system was poorly spec'ed is...you have no proof of your conviction. Where is the proof? People that own hydraulic brake bikes here who live in the mountains don't have this issue. The GCN video of the new Canyon disc bike tested in a very rigorous descent the testers praised had no brake fade.
> There in lies the disagreement. Disc brakes on a limited basis have been raced in the TdF. Brake fade is a non issue for modern spec hydraulic disc brake road bikes.


The article was posted because it has industry experts talking about the issues, not because of the author's crash.

I don't think most people will see brake fade on road bikes. I don't think they'll see overheated rims or melted tubular glue, either. But pros can and do, and I'm talking about whether the UCI should mandate discs or not. Read MTBR - fade is a common discussion, despite the larger rotors. Mountain bikers just encounter hard downhill braking conditions more then US sport road riders, so US road riders believe it either can't or doesn't happen. The US is not full of switchback mountainous descents.

I am absolutely not saying what any given sport rider should choose for themselves. I've said that many, many times in this thread. The fade issues are just about how pro cycling chooses to deal with the braking issues that have arisen since carbon rims became common for mass start races.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> The article was posted because it has industry experts talking about the issues, not because of the author's crash.
> 
> I don't think most people will see brake fade on road bikes. I don't think they'll see overheated rims or melted tubular glue, either. But pros can and do, and I'm talking about whether the UCI should mandate discs or not. Read MTBR - fade is a common discussion, despite the larger rotors. Mountain bikers just encounter hard downhill braking conditions more then US sport road riders, so US road riders believe it either can't or doesn't happen. The US is not full of switchback mountainous descents.
> 
> I am absolutely not saying what any given sport rider should choose for themselves. I've said that many, many times in this thread. The fade issues are just about how pro cycling chooses to deal with the braking issues that have arisen since carbon rims became common for mass start races.


OK, let's focus just on pro's riding hydraulic disc road bikes. You have registered your concern. Disc brakes have been raced in pro cycling on and off for some time now including Marcel Kittel winning several stages on his Venge VIAS disc in last year's TdF.
Please site any reference you have that disc brakes experience fade in professional road bike racing.


----------



## Fajita Dave

Kontact said:


> Read MTBR - fade is a common discussion, despite the larger rotors. Mountain bikers just encounter hard downhill braking conditions more then US sport road riders, so US road riders believe it either can't or doesn't happen. The US is not full of switchback mountainous descents.


If it hasn't been obvious I am a mountain biker and have long mountain descents that I ride regularly on my trail bike. Including trips to downhill parks. I ride faster than most backed with 20 years of motocross experience and brake fade has never been a problem. Even though my brakes are seriously under built compared to a full blown DH setup.

The only people recently that seem to encounter over heating issues are the people who race the kamikaze mountain bike games on a tandem bike.


----------



## Pisgah2000

Fajita Dave said:


> Which is why the ice tech rotors have more surface area dedicated to cooling around the inside of the braking surface.


I always thought the main advantage of Ice Techs was the aluminum core sandwiched between the steel outer surfaces. Aluminum dissipates heat better than steel, so they won't fade as quickly. The rotors do have a little more surface area than Shimano's non-Ice Techs, but I don't think that's the important part. They also have aluminum heatsinks on the pads. Personally, I've found this to actually make a difference when compared to regular discs of a variety of brands. I have M7000 160s on my MTBs, and I rarely have an issue with fade around here. No big hills around here, but I used to get noticeable fade out of my BB7s (or maybe it was my fingers that were fading with those...).

The argument about discs being better in the rain... yeah, to a point. In a torrential downpour? They are worthless. No power. Nothing for several seconds. I've had this happen a few times on long, fast descents. Not fun. 

Anyway, hydraulic road discs are great. Mechanicals? Meh. I have rim brakes at the moment, but if I get a new road bike, it's probably going to have hydraulic discs (though not one with dumb looking Sram levers). But, like a lot of people say, the simplicity and relative low cost of rim brakes is very appealing. Plus, yeah, a good set is more than enough for most people most of the time.


----------



## Fajita Dave

From what I understand the aluminum core draws heat away from the braking surface into the core of the rotors. The fins toward the center draw heat from the aluminum core for added cooling.

There are ice tech rotors with only the aluminum core but I suspect that might not be enough once the core temp rises.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> Are you certain that your experience is greater than anyone else's, or just the value of your opinion?
> 
> I've never ridden an SL3, so I can't qualify if it is as comfortable as a Parlee with an Enve fork or a Seven with an Alpha Q. Can you? Lots of very over-stiff bikes being sold today. Tapered steerers, BBright, etc.
> 
> 
> But I do appreciate your candor and potty mouth.


I have 3 1/2 years on hydraulic road disc brakes. Tell us about yours....you know.... outside of your active imaginings.


----------



## Lombard

SPlKE said:


> I'm a well-documented Fred and I do no such thing.


Same here. I couldn't give a rat's arse what the pros ride. But I'm very Fredly.

So MoPho, don't insult us Freds like that.


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_bicycle


Apparently you did not read past the first sentence of you would have seen this part of the definition:



> Other sources specifically exclude racing bicycles from the definition, using the term to mean a bicycle of a similar style but built more for endurance and less the fast bursts of speed desired in a racing bicycle; as such, they usually have more gear combinations and fewer hi-tech racing features.
> 
> Compared to other styles of bicycle, road bicycles share common features:
> 
> 
> The tires are narrow, high-pressure (>=100 psi or 689 kPa), and smooth to decrease rolling resistance.
> The handlebars are bent ("dropped") to allow the rider position to be leaned forward and downward, which reduces the forward vertical cross sectional area and thus highly reduces the air resistance.
> They usually use derailleur gears; however, single-speed and fixed-gear varieties exist.
> They either use* disc brakes or rim brake* (although there might be a bit technical difference, for example, road caliper brakes use shorter and wider pads than mountain bike cantilevers).
> The bicycle is of a lightweight construction.


----------



## MoPho

Lombard said:


> Same here. I couldn't give a rat's arse what the pros ride. But I'm very Fredly.
> 
> So MoPho, don't insult us Freds like that.


:lol: Well I didn't say all Freds do that, just that it makes you a Fred 


.


----------



## Lombard

Dcmkx2000 said:


> I want to get a gravel/cross bike for using a child seat. I am looking into a norco threshold cross bike because it meets my criteria: rack mounts, trp disc brakes, drop bar, etc.... I started another thread about if it was safe to use a child seat on a bike like this and I was told to post tge question in this thread for advice. I would be using the topeak seat tgat mounts to their rack, or the Thule seat that attaches to the seat tube. I was concerned about bike handling and saftey because I don't want to use a trailer. Thoughts?


My advice as well as the advice of my bike shop to people who want to carry a child is that a trailer is way safer than the type of child seat that is upright behind you. If you should go down, the child is a lot safer in the trailer.


----------



## Pisgah2000

Fajita Dave said:


> From what I understand the aluminum core draws heat away from the braking surface into the core of the rotors. The fins toward the center draw heat from the aluminum core for added cooling.
> 
> There are ice tech rotors with only the aluminum core but I suspect that might not be enough once the core temp rises.


Makes sense. My Ice Techs (MTB) don't have the fins.



Lombard said:


> My advice as well as the advice of my bike shop to people who want to carry a child is that a trailer is way safer than the type of child seat that is upright behind you. If you should go down, the child is a lot safer in the trailer.


Yep. Get a trailer. Don't put your kid in a seat on your bike... that's just asking for something bad to happen, especially if you want to have any fun. It's a good workout, it's stable, and you can bring books, toys, and snacks for longer rides. I've had a couple of Burleys, and they're great. They have a roll cage, 5-point harness, and hold up well to rolling over. I've had the unfortunate luck of finding that out... remember to go wide around those curbs. Make sure your kid wears a helmet, too.

Yeah, I rode in a seat as a kid the '80s, I lived, etc., but a trailer is much safer. Are discs necessary for a trailer? Not really, but they are going to at least feel more reassuring. I tow with all of my bikes, and rim brakes have never failed to stop quickly, even with the extra 50-60 lbs in tow in hilly terrain. Discs are easier though.


----------



## MoPho

I gave up on the ice tech rotors after I had some issues with them, using the Sram Centerline X and have noticed no difference in cooling between them


I have both a trailer and a kid seat, the trailer is a total PITA to deal with all the time. I run my kid about a mile up the road to daycare each day and doing it with kiddy seat is so much easier, and more fun to ride than pulling the trailer. But I agree that the trailer is probably safer.


----------



## Lombard

ceugene said:


> The OEM 160mm rotors are all around 4-5oz and no, heat dissipation is not something that is really a problem with the correct component choices. I'm fairly certain I could drag my brakes down any of the mountains here (Hamilton, Diablo, Tamalpais) with sintered pads and nothing terrible would happen.
> 
> The fluid would not boil over. The rotors would not warp. The pads would not glaze over.
> 
> That's because I'm not using terrible weight-weenie Ashima rotors combined with resin pads like the guy in the article.


^This.^ 

Shimano pads/calipers are designed to be used with Shimano discs and mineral oil. SRAM pads/calipers are designed to be used with SRAM discs and DOT 5 fluid. Same with TRP, Tektro, etc., etc.

There are other threads here about the dangers of mixing brands of disc brake components. Don't do it.


----------



## Lombard

MoPho said:


> :lol: Well I didn't say all Freds do that, just that it makes you a Fred


No way. We don't allow those types in the Fred Club.


----------



## MoPho

Lombard said:


> ^This.^
> 
> Shimano pads/calipers are designed to be used with Shimano discs and mineral oil. SRAM pads/calipers are designed to be used with SRAM discs and DOT 5 fluid. Same with TRP, Tektro, etc., etc.
> 
> *There are other threads here about the dangers of mixing brands of disc brake components. Don't do it.*



I don't think the rotor makes that much of a difference. I've seen only that one person briefly mention it in that other thread and try and make some argument about melting the core on the ice tech if you use Sram brakes with no evidence to back it up ( and I googled too), and many people have been running ice tech on sram brakes without issue and the Sram rotors don't have an aluminum core to melt when using shimano brakes. As I had mentioned in that other thread, I have been using Sram rotors with Shimano brakes and pads for a while now and they work great. 

I rate that as: Meh




.


----------



## Kontact

Lombard said:


> Apparently you did not read past the first sentence of you would have seen this part of the definition:


Of course I read it. Have you been reading this thread? We're discussing "road bikes" with both "rim brakes" vs "disc brakes". What do you think we've been talking about?


Did you see me make an argument that no bike with discs qualifies as a "road bike"? Are you having an argument inside your own head?


----------



## OldChipper

SwiftSolo said:


> You would do well to actually ride a road bike in the mountains. If you followed that experience with riding a road bike with hydraulic disc brakes in the mountains, It would cause curiosity about the physics involved that allow disc brakes to respond the same every time and to provide consistent deceleration in direct proportion to lever input--something that doesn't exist on rim brakes.


COMPLETE rubbish. I ride rim brakes in the mountains several times a week and have done so in the Pyrenees and Alps. They "respond the same every time and to provide consistent deceleration in direct proportion to lever input." Every. Single. Time. What the HECK are you talking about??? OK, I'll give you a difference in the wet, but that's a whole different argument. 

And yes, I have ridden both. Still on rim brakes - and always will be barring arthritis or some similar ailment.


----------



## ceugene

MoPho said:


> I rate that as: Meh


Yep. I have in my possession RT-99s, RT-900s, Centerline X 6-bolt, Centerline X CL, Campy H11 rotors. I really can't tell a difference in performance between them. The IceTech rotors might be better on some truly epic descents, but the 3000-4000ft ones here aren't a problem for the rest. All of the rotors were tested with SRAM eTap HRD brake calipers.

The rotors all have drastically different vents and notches, which leads to an audible difference when braking.

The Shimano rotors like to shudder a tiny bit under light braking...I think MoPho has also experienced this. It's not a squeal or honk, but kind of a wuh-wuh-wubbb. The shape of the rotor's edges are annoying...the fin contacts the brake pads at certain points.

The SRAM rotors are effectively silent. All I hear is the expected abrasive sound of the sintered pads on the rotor. Definitely the ugliest rotor of the three, but I'll take silence over looks in this case.

The H11 rotors with their aggressive radial venting sound like Chewbacca until you really start braking hard. I like how the H11 rotors look...very simple design and they really went out of their way to make the rotor as blunt as possible. Shame it's the loudest of all the rotors I've tested.

Unless I experience fade on something like Pike's Peak, I doubt I'll be switching off the SRAM rotors anytime soon.




OldChipper said:


> COMPLETE rubbish. I ride rim brakes in the mountains several times a week and have done so in the Pyrenees and Alps. They "respond the same every time and to provide consistent deceleration in direct proportion to lever input." Every. Single. Time. What the HECK are you talking about??? OK, I'll give you a difference in the wet, but that's a whole different argument.





OldChipper said:


> And yes, I have ridden both. Still on rim brakes - and always will be barring arthritis or some similar ailment.




I've seen a good number of exploded carbon clinchers from delamination on tricky descents. Not even super-long ones. Last one was Deer Creek Rd, which is 2.2mi of chipseal at 12%. Since traction is so bad on the chipseal, people end up dragging the brakes on them or shedding speed on the few smoother patches beforehand. Not only did I see one set of exploded Knight Composites rims, but also random other participants of the fondo stopped on the side of the road waiting for the Roval CLX 32s on their brand new Tarmac SL6s to cool.

Maybe the guys in the breaks don't experience carbon rim overheating, but it would pretty dangerous for the peloton to descend with rim brake carbon clinchers. Tubular rims at least don't have the weak bead walls, nor are they subject to 100+ psi of outward pressure.


----------



## Kontact

ceugene said:


> Yep. I have in my possession RT-99s, RT-900s, Centerline X 6-bolt, Centerline X CL, Campy H11 rotors. I really can't tell a difference in performance between them. The IceTech rotors might be better on some truly epic descents, but the 3000-4000ft ones here aren't a problem for the rest. All of the rotors were tested with SRAM eTap HRD brake calipers.
> 
> The rotors all have drastically different vents and notches, which leads to an audible difference when braking.
> 
> The Shimano rotors like to shudder a tiny bit under light braking...I think MoPho has also experienced this. It's not a squeal or honk, but kind of a wuh-wuh-wubbb. The shape of the rotor's edges are annoying...the fin contacts the brake pads at certain points.
> 
> The SRAM rotors are effectively silent. All I hear is the expected abrasive sound of the sintered pads on the rotor. Definitely the ugliest rotor of the three, but I'll take silence over looks in this case.
> 
> The H11 rotors with their aggressive radial venting sound like Chewbacca until you really start braking hard. I like how the H11 rotors look...very simple design and they really went out of their way to make the rotor as blunt as possible. Shame it's the loudest of all the rotors I've tested.
> 
> Unless I experience fade on something like Pike's Peak, I doubt I'll be switching off the SRAM rotors anytime soon.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a good number of exploded carbon clinchers from delamination on tricky descents. Not even super-long ones. Last one was Deer Creek Rd, which is 2.2mi of chipseal at 12%. Since traction is so bad on the chipseal, people end up dragging the brakes on them or shedding speed on the few smoother patches beforehand. Not only did I see one set of exploded Knight Composites rims, but also random other participants of the fondo stopped on the side of the road waiting for the Roval CLX 32s on their brand new Tarmac SL6s to cool.
> 
> Maybe the guys in the breaks don't experience carbon rim overheating, but it would pretty dangerous for the peloton to descend with rim brake carbon clinchers. Tubular rims at least don't have the weak bead walls, nor are they subject to 100+ psi of outward pressure.


A good argument for putting a metal brake track back into carbon rims.

Some people like to talk about keeping rim weight low because of rotational inertia, but rim inertia is super low on any road wheel.


----------



## 11spd

OldChipper said:


> COMPLETE rubbish. I ride rim brakes in the mountains several times a week and have done so in the Pyrenees and Alps. They "respond the same every time and to provide consistent deceleration in direct proportion to lever input." Every. Single. Time. What the HECK are you talking about??? OK, I'll give you a difference in the wet, but that's a whole different argument.
> 
> And yes, I have ridden both. Still on rim brakes - and always will be barring arthritis or some similar ailment.


Chip,
I want to caution you about coming to this thread and suggesting that rim disc brakes for extreme descents like the Pyrenees and Alps are in fact very effective as that really detracts from the disc argument. ;-)

As you may know, many pros…the disc guys here if you read the thread love to talk about pros…when they ride rim brakes, if they can’t get a foot down, they ride right off the mountain and are never heard from again. That is why in fact rim brakes continued to be used in the mountains. Those that criticize the stopping power, no longer have a voice and so the trend continues. Reason for mentioning this is, I don’t want you to be such a person when you are riding 50 mph down the Alps and can’t stop. If you look closely, many of the pros now have switched to mtb shoes because of greater surface area when putting their foot down to stop. This basically is a throw back to toe clips where shoes had broad soles where dragging your feet could slow you down due to the inadequacy of rim brakes.

Kidding aside, Chip aside from your personal preference, how about your riding buddies? No doubt with all the high speed descending you do, the subject of braking comes up time to time. What would you say the mix of disc to rim is among your mountain riding buddies?

Also, if you would add since you live near famous pro cycling mountain passages, what do you anticipate the trend moving forward will be among pro riders?...understanding that disc brakes among pros currently is extremely rare. Do you see headwinds to pros embracing disc brakes in spite of the high speeds they achieve riding at the ragged edge?

Thanks for your comments.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> A good argument for putting a metal brake track back into carbon rims.
> 
> Some people like to talk about keeping rim weight low because of rotational inertia, but rim inertia is super low on any road wheel.


At least you are consistent...lol. Its been done, a lot. Mostly a weight penalty. Technical challenges are high bonding at extreme temperature exascerbated by difference in coef. of thermal expansion creating shear subtracting from bonding strength.

But, through development, aside from your other time warp preoccupation fantasies like disc brake fade and insurmountable fork and rear triangle localized stiffness destroying ride and handling, alloy rim brake tracks on carbon wheels have been pretty much voted obsolete by top wheel builders based upon high grade carbon (T sub G) aka glass transition temperature and reality that excellent rim braking performance is achievable with homogeneous carbon rims with compatible brakes pads.


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> Of course I read it. Have you been reading this thread? We're discussing "road bikes" with both "rim brakes" vs "disc brakes". What do you think we've been talking about?
> 
> 
> Did you see me make an argument that no bike with discs qualifies as a "road bike"? *Are you having an argument inside your own head?*


Um, no, but I think you are.


----------



## T K

Serious question, if I do not ride in the rain or go down hill using carbon clinchers, why would I want/need disc brakes? 
FYI, I do not ride in rain (unless getting caught out unexpectedly) and I don't think I would ever own carbon clinchers.


----------



## Rashadabd

T K said:


> Serious question, if I do not ride in the rain or go down hill using carbon clinchers, why would I want/need disc brakes?
> FYI, I do not ride in rain (unless getting caught out unexpectedly) and I don't think I would ever own carbon clinchers.


It's a legitimate question and a disc brake equipped bike might not be for you then. FWIW, I think this is one of the most honest assessments I've seen on the subject. It is completely ok for different people to need/want different things:

BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team first ride review - BikeRadar USA

This and the new Scott Foil Disc are my favorite bikes at the moment. Both were out of reach for me price wise given the other things I needed, so I ended up with a Fuji SL Disc instead. I love the bike so far and don't see a real downside at all.


----------



## Kontact

Lombard said:


> Um, no, but I think you are.


So you have no explanation for your odd post? Okay.


----------



## Kontact

Rashadabd said:


> It's a legitimate question and a disc brake equipped bike might not be for you then. FWIW, I think this is one of the most honest assessments I've seen on the subject. It is completely ok for different people to need/want different things:
> 
> BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team first ride review - BikeRadar USA
> 
> This and the new Scott Foil Disc are my favorite bikes at the moment. Both were out of reach for me price wise given the other things I needed, so I ended up with a Fuji SL Disc instead. I love the bike so far and don't see a real downside at all.


Thanks for posting the article. It articulates some of the issues I've mentioned.


----------



## Lombard

Kontact said:


> So you have no explanation for your odd post? Okay.


I don't see my post as any more odd than your many, many odd, obsessive and often repetitive posts. Pot, meet Kettle.


----------



## Maelochs

T K said:


> Serious question, if I do not ride in the rain or go down hill using carbon clinchers, why would I want/need disc brakes?
> FYI, I do not ride in rain (unless getting caught out unexpectedly) and I don't think I would ever own carbon clinchers.


 That's not even a question, is it?
Tool for the job ... it Seems like such a simple concept.


----------



## 11spd

T K said:


> Serious question, if I do not ride in the rain or go down hill using carbon clinchers, why would I want/need disc brakes?
> FYI, I do not ride in rain (unless getting caught out unexpectedly) and I don't think I would ever own carbon clinchers.


Objectively, nobody needs either brake type...but good to have brakes. 
I suggest you go out and ride a disk brake bike or three. What you will find is less pressure on the levers to stop the bike and many prefer the modulation as well of discs. Me personally, I prefer rim brakes but if I lived in the mountains, pretty sure based upon my experience of descending on disc brake bikes I would opt for discs.

So horses for courses and rider specific which means that even those that daily ride the mountains may prefer rim brakes like Chip and others that ride flat land only may enjoy the light touch and strong braking of discs. Personal preference but real difference between the two.


----------



## 11spd

Maelochs said:


> That's not even a question, is it?
> Tool for the job ... it Seems like such a simple concept.


Not always. Plenty of cross pollination going on as well. More like personal preference with distinct strengths and weaknesses of each design.


----------



## SwiftSolo

OldChipper said:


> COMPLETE rubbish. I ride rim brakes in the mountains several times a week and have done so in the Pyrenees and Alps. They "respond the same every time and to provide consistent deceleration in direct proportion to lever input." Every. Single. Time. What the HECK are you talking about??? OK, I'll give you a difference in the wet, but that's a whole different argument.
> 
> And yes, I have ridden both. Still on rim brakes - and always will be barring arthritis or some similar ailment.


So your rim brakes provide the same level of deceleration whether the rims are wet or dry, loaded with grit or clean? Further, a fixed amount of lever pressure will provide the same level of deceleration as the rim goes from wet to dry, gritty to clean?

Those are some magical rim brakes and if you can move them from your imagination to the real world there will be no need for hydraulic disc brakes. The cycling community is waiting.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> So your rim brakes provide the same level of deceleration whether the rims are wet or dry, loaded with grit or clean? Further, a fixed amount of lever pressure will provide the same level of deceleration as the rim goes from wet to dry, gritty to clean?
> 
> Those are some magical rim brakes and if you can move them from your imagination to the real world there will be no need for hydraulic disc brakes. The cycling community is waiting.


Harsh comments SS. Your vitriol is transparently hiding your insecurity in defense of disc brakes. The TdF has been raced in the mountains for the last 50 years. Pretty much any top rider will drop you descending those mountains as to present day almost all are on rim brakes. So you should modify your wet/grit preoccupation. Any pro will beat you down the mountain on rim brakes in 'any' conditions.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Harsh comments SS. Your vitriol is transparently hiding your insecurity in defense of disc brakes. The TdF has been raced in the mountains for the last 50 years. Pretty much any top rider will drop you descending those mountains as to present day almost all are on rim brakes. So you should modify your wet/grit preoccupation. Any pro will beat you down the mountain on rim brakes in 'any' conditions.


That is a truly astute argument. Because a tdf pro can beat you up any mountain pass on a $250 Huffy, it's pretty clear that it doesn't get any better than a Huffy. 

Let me guess--a MIT graduate?


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> I'm not sure if this is satire or not, but rim brakes work and have for over a century. One would think reading your description that most anyone can't lock up a wheel in wet conditions using a rim brake.
> 
> 
> By contrast, I have pointed out how Rube Golderberg it is to have braking forces transmitted from tire>rim>spokes>hub>rotor>caliper>fork>bicycle when a rim brake goes tire>rim>caliper>bike and cuts out the hub, spokes and fork. It is much nicer being able to use the spokes and fork for things other than stopping a bike, especially when the fork is supposed to act as suspension.


First off, dragging your shoe works and has worked for even longer. 

Your argument about locking up your wheel in wet conditions pretty much summarizes your understanding of the physics of decelerating a bicycle effectively.

Regarding your Parlee, what makes you think those guys have a clue about building good bikes?


----------



## Kontact

Lombard said:


> I don't see my post as any more odd than your many, many odd, obsessive and often repetitive posts. Pot, meet Kettle.


My posts are repetitive due to the singularly limited ability of some of my readership to understand a point I make the first time. Not agree, just comprehend so the response isn't out of left field.

Speaking of which, who made it sound like a "road race bike" by definition can't have disc brakes?


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> First off, dragging your shoe works and has worked for even longer.
> 
> Your argument about locking up your wheel in wet conditions pretty much summarizes your understanding of the physics of decelerating a bicycle effectively.
> 
> Regarding your Parlee, what makes you think those guys have a clue about building good bikes?


I wasn't summarizing my understanding, I'm pointing out that all the brakes being discussed have a lot of braking power and traction.

I used Parlee with a Enve fork as an example of long standing, dedicated and fine tuned road and road fork designs. Substitute Seven, IF, Serotta, Calfee, Look, Time, Spectrum, etc. And I'm contrasting those products with a highly marketed and frequently redesigned product like a Specialized or Trek.


----------



## Rashadabd

Kontact said:


> Thanks for posting the article. It articulates some of the issues I've mentioned.


No problem at all.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> That is a truly astute argument. Because a tdf pro can beat you up any mountain pass on a $250 Huffy, it's pretty clear that it doesn't get any better than a Huffy.
> 
> Let me guess--a MIT graduate?


Point is….and only reason I bring it to your attention is like Kontact, you have your mythological talking points that need to be debunked. You see, being blindly in either camp is misguided. Pros believe they are faster on rim brakes, not on disc brakes.

In case you have been to a pro race comprised of many stages, they race sometimes through heavy water and grit you are so focused upon.
Pros race in every kind of condition including boarderline monsoon conditions like last year’s Colorado race that was almost called due to streets literally flooded out. If pros believe that rim brakes were a detriment to their speed in the race, they would all be on disc. They don’t believe this is true. They make their living by riding fast and have a history of even cheating at peril to their health to ride faster. The faster you ride, the more emphasis this puts on braking, not less.
Bottom line is braking…rim or disc has little affect on rider speed. Or…if extrapolating, one could at least conclude that rim brakes are faster in overall riding conditions because that is what pros choose. Most of us however that have ridden both believe there is little difference.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Point is….and only reason I bring it to your attention is like Kontact, you have your mythological talking points that need to be debunked.



What are my mythological talking points?

Lombard has just demonstrated that some people don't even know what I've written.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> What are my mythological talking points?
> 
> Lombard has just demonstrated that some people don't even know what I've written.


Come on, you can't read your own mythology?...lol.
1. disk brake fade is a concern or problem.
2. frame reinforcement for disc calipers i.e. fork and chainstay adversely affects ride and handling.
3. alloy brake tracks are good for carbon wheel/rim brake applications.

All three are unnecessary or irrelevant and have been moved beyond. All that wasted bandwidth because of caught in a time warp. Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Come on, you can't read your own mythology?...lol.
> 1. disk brake fade is a concern or problem.
> 2. frame reinforcement for disc calipers i.e. fork and chainstay adversely affects ride and handling.
> 3. alloy brake tracks are good for carbon wheel/rim brake applications.
> 
> All three are unnecessary or irrelevant and have been moved beyond. All that wasted bandwidth because of caught in a time warp. Thanks for the laugh.


The first two are referenced in the BMC article. For instance:



> The primary discernible difference was a slightly stiffer fork (fore and aft), due to the requirements of disc brakes.


If it was my "myth", people writing articles about $11,000 bikes wouldn't also be mentioning them.


The last is my opinion of a different way of handling the carbon rim breaking problem. As no one is currently pursuing this track, there's not much to argue either way, except to acknowledge that aluminum makes a better braking surface than carbon composite.


----------



## Veloptuous

I’m certainly no expert and the only disc brakes I’ve ridden are on my Mountain Bike and all my road bikes (or variations thereof) have rim brakes. But one thing is for sure…it will be quite some time (if ever) before we reach the “Once and For All, End All Be All” of this topic.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> The first two are referenced in the BMC article. For instance:
> 
> 
> 
> If it was my "myth", people writing articles about $11,000 bikes wouldn't also be mentioning them.
> 
> 
> The last is my opinion of a different way of handling the carbon rim breaking problem. As no one is currently pursuing this track, there's not much to argue either way, except to acknowledge *that aluminum makes a better braking surface than carbon composite*.


You don't understand design. A given design attribute doesn't define what's best for an overall design. In bold, the downside of weight, complexity and reliability of bonding dissimilar materials with different coef of thermal expansion makes an Al and carbon wheel composite less desirable than homogenous carbon. The wheel building community including those that purchase and race high end wheels have voted. Many alloy brake track and carbon wheels have come and gone from the market. The nuance of each point you steadfastly support has been debunked. You just never got the memo or didn't understand it.


----------



## 11spd

Veloptuous said:


> I’m certainly no expert and the only disc brakes I’ve ridden are on my Mountain Bike and all my road bikes (or variations thereof) have rim brakes. But one thing is for sure…it will be quite some time (if ever) before we reach the “Once and For All, End All Be All” of this topic.


And that is precisely the point. There is no better. Each brake type brings different qualities a rider may or many not choose.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Point is….and only reason I bring it to your attention is like Kontact, you have your mythological talking points that need to be debunked. You see, being blindly in either camp is misguided. Pros believe they are faster on rim brakes, not on disc brakes.
> 
> In case you have been to a pro race comprised of many stages, they race sometimes through heavy water and grit you are so focused upon.
> Pros race in every kind of condition including boarderline monsoon conditions like last year’s Colorado race that was almost called due to streets literally flooded out. If pros believe that rim brakes were a detriment to their speed in the race, they would all be on disc. They don’t believe this is true. They make their living by riding fast and have a history of even cheating at peril to their health to ride faster. The faster you ride, the more emphasis this puts on braking, not less.
> Bottom line is braking…rim or disc has little affect on rider speed. Or…if extrapolating, one could at least conclude that rim brakes are faster in overall riding conditions because that is what pros choose. Most of us however that have ridden both believe there is little difference.


Your assumption about what the monolith called pros think may fall short of fact or even probability. 

There are a number of issues associated with introducing disc brakes into the peloton. 

First, issues related to neutral support go without saying. 

Second, having cyclists with substantially different deceleration capabilities can cause significant problems for everybody. 

Third, the pro traditionalists are already in a world of hurt on the descents because of the influx of mountain bikers. It will take these folks a couple of years of racing with discs to understand and master the difference in the way hairpins are negotiated most effectively when consistency/predictability and precision are introduced into the science.

Beyond all of the above, road bikers have historically been the last to accept better technology whenever it required an adjustment to traditional thinking.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> You don't understand design. *A given design attribute doesn't define what's best for an overall design.* In bold, the downside of weight, complexity and reliability of bonding dissimilar materials with different coef of thermal expansion makes an Al and carbon wheel composite less desirable than homogenous carbon. The wheel building community including those that purchase and race high end wheels have voted. Many alloy brake track and carbon wheels have come and gone from the market. The nuance of each point you steadfastly support has been debunked. You just never got the memo or didn't understand it.


That's a fine statement to make, but it holds for putting hub brakes on road bikes as much as putting metal brake tracks on carbon rims. Neither is a perfect solution because they each requires a compromise to the original pattern of the bike, but either compromise has benefits.

Understanding which compromise has the least downsides is the key to good design. The component myopia that is reflected in much of this thread is that a given part - the brake, the rim - should be viewed separately from the bike as a whole. People don't like the idea of carbon/metal rims because it doesn't make for an ideal rim. But bare carbon rims don't make ideal bikes, and the bike is the design goal, not the rim.

I'm simply taking the view that the best way to combine disc brake advances with road bikes is to find a better way to use the rim as the rotor. This would not only be lighter overall, it would have zero impact on the structure of the bike.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> Second, having cyclists with substantially different deceleration capabilities can cause significant problems for everybody.


Which is why I think it fair to consider that the UCI is unlikely to keep two braking systems as options.


----------



## MoPho

I like how 11spd is now arguing both sides for...















.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> Your assumption about what the monolith called pros think may fall short of fact or even probability.
> 
> There are a number of issues associated with introducing disc brakes into the peloton.
> 
> First, issues related to neutral support go without saying.
> 
> Second, having cyclists with substantially different deceleration capabilities can cause significant problems for everybody.
> 
> Third, the pro traditionalists are already in a world of hurt on the descents because of the influx of mountain bikers. It will take these folks a couple of years of racing with discs to understand and master the difference in the way hairpins are negotiated most effectively when consistency/predictability and precision are introduced into the science.
> 
> Beyond all of the above, road bikers have historically been the last to accept better technology whenever it required an adjustment to traditional thinking.


Don't have time right now to debunk each point but your last sentence has undeniable relevance. Suffice to say if a 'much' better mousetrap existed, pros would embrace it as they have riding carbon bikes with carbon wheels with electric shifting of all things.

As I have stated before, I would not be surprised to see disc brakes get more universally embraced by pro riders. And of course there is the boogie man in the room aka the danger of discs if you are a believer or not. In this context if you don't race, to me the danger element of discs is miniscule.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> I like how 11spd is now arguing both sides for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The troll argument is always a tell a poster has no substance to offer. I am arguing both sides because I see both sides clearly where most do not.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> The troll argument is always a tell a poster has no substance to offer. I am arguing both sides because I see both sides clearly where most do not.



No, the troll has no substance to offer, and it has been very clear you've been trolling this thread and you didn't start off arguing both sides. But that's ok, i've been entertained. 


And I can see both sides just fine, the problem is that the anti-disc crowd tends to exaggerate and perpetuate misinformation




.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> That's a fine statement to make, but it holds for putting hub brakes on road bikes as much as putting metal brake tracks on carbon rims. Neither is a perfect solution because they each requires a compromise to the original pattern of the bike, but either compromise has benefits.
> 
> Understanding which compromise has the least downsides is the key to good design. The component myopia that is reflected in much of this thread is that a given part - the brake, the rim - should be viewed separately from the bike as a whole. People don't like the idea of carbon/metal rims because it doesn't make for an ideal rim. But bare carbon rims don't make ideal bikes, and the bike is the design goal, not the rim.
> 
> I'm simply taking the view that the best way to combine disc brake advances with road bikes is to find a better way to use the rim as the rotor. This would not only be lighter overall, it would have zero impact on the structure of the bike.


One of your more reasonable posts albeit the hub brake versus composite rim brake analogy is a bit weak. Not sure what your background is, but there are real technical challenges to creating a reliable rim with alloy braking surface.

In design, value aka performance cost/benefit of each parameter is prioritized. 
For example we could create a matrix of parameters defining this analysis in the context of composite versus homogeneous rims.
What would shake out...again, 'your' preoccupation with what you consider best case braking surface, does not wash relative to cost, tolerance stability, manufacturability and overall reliability. For example for the same cost, a homogeneous carbon wheel could be comprised of more premium carbon with higher TsubG.

Point is...the layperson doesn't have a good enough understanding of why products evolve as they do which for example creates threads like this. For example, you look myopically at best braking surface which may have a 1-5% benefit under certain riding conditions. But in terms of overall scope of wheel integrity and cost, majority of riders would prefer a lighter, less expensive homogenous carbon wheel with higher grade of carbon. Riders know implicitly afore mentioned qualities are more important that a modest increase in braking capability under 'certain' riding conditions. Simply look at any high end carbon wheel manufacturer...what they offer. This is why.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho said:


> No, the troll has no substance to offer, and it has been very clear you've been trolling this thread and you didn't start off arguing both sides. But that's ok, i've been entertained.
> 
> 
> And I can see both sides just fine, the problem is that the anti-disc crowd tends to exaggerate and perpetuate misinformation.


More trolling on your part MoPho. You really should desist so others can make more substantive points.


----------



## MoPho

11spd said:


> More trolling on your part MoPho. You really should desist so others can make more substantive points.


----------



## 11spd

MoPho aka Johnny...lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF8r3DhudHM


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> The first two are referenced in the BMC article. For instance:
> 
> 
> 
> If it was my "myth", people writing articles about $11,000 bikes wouldn't also be mentioning them.
> 
> 
> The last is my opinion of a different way of handling the carbon rim breaking problem. As no one is currently pursuing this track, there's not much to argue either way, except to acknowledge that aluminum makes a better braking surface than carbon composite.


My first set of 303's were carbon with aluminum braking surfaces. The idea was abandoned in the second and subsequent generations of 303's.

I agree that aluminum rims can produce more friction than carbon braking surfaces--all else being equal. On the other hand, you can pretty much bet that most of the folks now riding road hydraulic discs have a lot of experience on aluminum rims. Like me, many have relegated some pretty high end carbon bikes with rim brakes to wall art--nearly impossible to go back if you like twisty, fast, downhills.


----------



## Rashadabd

Here's the reality and the place I really hoped this thread would get to pages ago: today in 2017 (2018 if you go by model year I guess), you can really build an exceptional bike with either brake system. Most of the stereotypes about both systems are fiction at this point. On the disc side, companies like Trek, BMC, and soon Specialized have effectively eliminated the "extra weight" issue, if that's a major concern. If aerodynamics are your thing, Scott's new Foil Disc is reportedly faster than their previous rim brake Foil in the wind tunnel. 

Furthermore, the right set of brake pads, rim type and calipers (dual pivot or direct mount) can provide a solid amount of modulation and braking force on a rim brake that does and should suffice for most of us. The differences between the two systems only really matter in a significant way on the margins (for the guys/gals that want the absolutely lightest or the absolutely most aero bike, etc.). Given that, everyone really has some great options today and should really just get what they like. Suggesting that one system is bad and that one is good in either direction is silly. I have a bike with each brake type and enjoy them both just fine. I have tested and ridden both brake types multiple times. 

At the end of the day my preference is discs (and yes I raced my first crit last year), but I recognize that is my own personal preference based on how and where I want to ride and the features I want on my bike. So, while I might say I don't see many good reasons for passing on discs today if you don't have a bunch of extra rim brake equipped wheels/bikes lying around you don't want to waste or sell, I recognize that for a number of riders rim brakes are good enough+ or even ideal. I say we just leave it at that. 

FWIW, my guess is the pros are going to end up just like the rest of us, about half will love discs and about half will be fine with rim brakes. The survey they had completed already seems to indicate that's the case. 

First Ride: Trek's astonishingly light Émonda SLR Disc | VeloNews.com

https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/page/foil


----------



## HFroller

11spd said:


> Objectively, nobody needs either brake type...but good to have brakes.


What strikes me in this discussion is how unconvincing most arguments are. 

(Disclosure: I ride rim brakes. Not because I have anything against discs, but because I’ll wait until the technology is standardized and mature to make a choice. Yes, yes, I know, disc brake technology is mature, but on the other hand rim brake technology was mature in the 1980s too). 

Now the arguments.

- The pros prefer rim brakes.
OK, but I’m not a pro. I do many things they don’t do, and they do many things I don’t. 

- Discs are better on fast descents in the Alps and the Pyrenees and the Dolomites and so on. 
OK, but I’ve done my share of cols in the Alps and the Pyrenees and my speed is determined by the fact that I get scared when I reach 70 or 75 km/h. Occasionally I’ll “brake late” to pass a camper van in a hairpin, but “braking late” means here: later than my wife would do. No way discs are going to make me faster.

- You don’t need discs in Florida.
OK, but I don’t live in Florida and neither do I live in the Dolomites. I live in an area somewhere between flat and Liège-Bastogne-Liège. Now what? 

- Discs need stiffer, less comfortable forks.
OK, perhaps that’s noticeable if you compare exactly the same bike with and without discs. But in general? There’s a noticeable difference between a Giant TCR and a Bianchi Intenso too, when they are both equipped with rim brakes. 

- MTB’ers do this & that.
OK, but let’s see. 26 inch wheels, V-brakes, front suspension, rear suspension and so on. Does anyone remember Johan Museeuw in Paris-Roubaix 1994, the most pathetic demonstration of new technology in cycling ever? MTB is different from road racing. 

- The pros are conservative luddites.
OK, but no, they aren’t. They would kill their mother in law – and your mother in law – to win. If discs gave them a real or even an imagined advantage, they would ride discs. It’s just that they make their living riding bikes. They take everything into account: sponsors, wheel changes, their safety … and ride, for the time being, mostly rim brakes. 

And then there’s the famous slippery slope. “Pros would be faster on a Walmart bike, so you’re telling me a Walmart bike is just as good as a $ 5,000 Specialized?” 

It’s an amusing discussion, but convincing it isn’t.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Point is….and only reason I bring it to your attention is like Kontact, you have your mythological talking points that need to be debunked. You see, being blindly in either camp is misguided. Pros believe they are faster on rim brakes, not on disc brakes.
> 
> In case you have been to a pro race comprised of many stages, they race sometimes through heavy water and grit you are so focused upon.
> Pros race in every kind of condition including boarderline monsoon conditions like last year’s Colorado race that was almost called due to streets literally flooded out. If pros believe that rim brakes were a detriment to their speed in the race, they would all be on disc. They don’t believe this is true. They make their living by riding fast and have a history of even cheating at peril to their health to ride faster. The faster you ride, the more emphasis this puts on braking, not less.
> Bottom line is braking…rim or disc has little affect on rider speed. Or…if extrapolating, one could at least conclude that rim brakes are faster in overall riding conditions because that is what pros choose. Most of us however that have ridden both believe there is little difference.


The problem you're having relates to the difficulty religious theorists with zero experience on hydraulic road discs have in trying to make a coherent argument against those who have actual experience (3 1/2 seasons) on hydraulic road discs. 

In my case I usually spend a couple of weeks climbing and descending in the Dolomites early in the summer and the rest of my time climbing and descending in the Cascades of Washington. I have time data on numerous twisting descents on rim and disc brakes that clearly demonstrates the time advantage since the switch to hydraulic discs. That advantage caused my regular riding partners to switch to hydraulics disc bikes within a year because the difference was dramatic.


----------



## Maelochs

11spd said:


> Each brake type brings different qualities a rider may or many not choose.


 Drop the mic.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> Beyond all of the above, road bikers have historically been the last to accept better technology whenever it required an adjustment to traditional thinking.


Except for electronic shifting, titanium, aluminum and carbon frames, aluminum and carbon forks, integrated shifters, indexing,aeor brakes, aero levers, internal cable routing, side pull brakes, double pivot brakes, hydraulic brakes. composite wheels, unusual wheel sizes, braze on fittings, cartridge bearings and clipless pedals.

But other than those, a very conservative bunch.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> One of your more reasonable posts albeit the hub brake versus composite rim brake analogy is a bit weak. Not sure what your background is, but there are real technical challenges to creating a reliable rim with alloy braking surface.
> 
> In design, value aka performance cost/benefit of each parameter is prioritized.
> For example we could create a matrix of parameters defining this analysis in the context of composite versus homogeneous rims.
> What would shake out...again, 'your' preoccupation with what you consider best case braking surface, does not wash relative to cost, tolerance stability, manufacturability and overall reliability. For example for the same cost, a homogeneous carbon wheel could be comprised of more premium carbon with higher TsubG.
> 
> Point is...the layperson doesn't have a good enough understanding of why products evolve as they do which for example creates threads like this. For example, you look myopically at best braking surface which may have a 1-5% benefit under certain riding conditions. But in terms of overall scope of wheel integrity and cost, majority of riders would prefer a lighter, less expensive homogenous carbon wheel with higher grade of carbon. Riders know implicitly afore mentioned qualities are more important that a modest increase in braking capability under 'certain' riding conditions. Simply look at any high end carbon wheel manufacturer...what they offer. This is why.


I'm not a lay person. I was a bike mechanic for many years, was a pilot and maintenance officer with a lot of experience with composites and someone that runs a bicycle seat company.

You are discounting out of hand solutions that haven't been attempted because they run counter to the business of selling ultralight aero rims. It wasn't like the composite companies designed special brake pads first - the relied on the market to fix the problem of the carbon brake track.

The bicycle industry is not like aviation - it is an industry of enthusiastic amateurs and displaced engineers. How many years has Colnago offered aluminum drop outs bonded directly to carbon tubes, despite the corrosion issue. Or just about everything Cervelo introduces.

Specific to this topic, Wound Up had a recall on disc road forks in 2015, and then Enve had the same recall in 2016. You can pretend that the engineering and designers are geniuses, but they are making it up as they go along - even though disc bicycle brakes are decades old.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> The problem you're having relates to the difficulty religious theorists with zero experience on hydraulic road discs have in trying to make a coherent argument against those who have actual experience (3 1/2 seasons) on hydraulic road discs.
> 
> In my case I usually spend a couple of weeks climbing and descending in the Dolomites early in the summer and the rest of my time climbing and descending in the Cascades of Washington. I have time data on numerous twisting descents on rim and disc brakes that clearly demonstrates the time advantage since the switch to hydraulic discs. That advantage caused my regular riding partners to switch to hydraulics disc bikes within a year because the difference was dramatic.


It isn't all a question of disc brake experience, but the experience with all the components that are modified to allow disc brakes.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> Except for electronic shifting, titanium, aluminum and carbon frames, aluminum and carbon forks, integrated shifters, indexing,aeor brakes, aero levers, internal cable routing, side pull brakes, double pivot brakes, hydraulic brakes. composite wheels, unusual wheel sizes, braze on fittings, cartridge bearings and clipless pedals.
> 
> But other than those, a very conservative bunch.


It is correct that many of the things on your list were adopted by road bikers--about 7 years after mountain bikers perfected and adopted the technology.

To be clear, a few of the items were actually invented for road cyclists but quickly rejected by the overwhelming congregation of Luddites that represents road racing. Without mountain bikers, road cyclists would still be using friction shifters on the down tubes.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> It is correct that many of the things on your list were adopted by road bikers--about 7 years after mountain bikers perfected and adopted the technology.
> 
> To be clear, a few of the items were actually invented for road cyclists but quickly rejected by the overwhelming congregation of Luddites that represents road racing. Without mountain bikers, road cyclists would still be using friction shifters on the down tubes.


That is factually totally untrue. The first index systems was Dura Ace in 1984, followed by 600EX in 1986 - MTBs didn't index until 1987. 

The first aluminum frames came before MTBs existed and were used by pro racers in the '70s. The fist Ti and carbon frames were also in the 1970s - and were popular with road riders. The first successful oversize tube bikes was Kleins road bikes in the early '80s, followed by MTB versions in the mid 80s. The first clipless pedals adopted were in the early '80s, while MTB riders didn't even have one to try until 1990. The first all carbon bike was the Kestrel 4000 in 1986. Cassettes came our for road groups first. MTB STI came out only 1 year before it was seen on pro road bikes - '89 and '90. Not 7.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> That is factually totally untrue. The first index systems was Dura Ace in 1984, followed by 600EX in 1986 - MTBs didn't index until 1987.
> 
> The first aluminum frames came before MTBs existed and were used by pro racers in the '70s. The fist Ti and carbon frames were also in the 1970s - and were popular with road riders. The first successful oversize tube bikes was Kleins road bikes in the early '80s, followed by MTB versions in the mid 80s. The first clipless pedals adopted were in the early '80s, while MTB riders didn't even have one to try until 1990. The first all carbon bike was the Kestrel 4000 in 1986. Cassettes came our for road groups first. MTB STI came out only 1 year before it was seen on pro road bikes - '89 and '90. Not 7.


You apparently completely missed what I was saying. Invention and adoption by the racing community are two very different things. I think someone on RBR showed evidence that the first bike disc brakes were used on a road bike. 

The tradition of refusing to adopt obviously superior technology has a long history in road bike racing and road biking in general--witness road hydraulic disc brakes. This forum is a duplicate of the debates mountain bikers had 17 years ago except the arguments were science based. The difference now is, hydraulic disc brakes are a proven technology and opposition is now based on religion, instead of science.


----------



## Kontact

SwiftSolo said:


> You apparently completely missed what I was saying. Invention and adoption by the racing community are two very different things. I think someone on RBR showed evidence that the first bike disc brakes were used on a road bike.
> 
> The tradition of refusing to adopt obviously superior technology has a long history in road bike racing and road biking in general--witness road hydraulic disc brakes. This forum is a duplicate of the debates mountain bikers had 17 years ago except the arguments were science based. The difference now is, hydraulic disc brakes are a proven technology and opposition is now based on religion, instead of science.


The fact that not every new possible "advance" is embraced might be a sign that many advances don't apply.

I made you a long list of things that were pretty quickly embraced by pro racers, and you can easily look for pictures of various TDFs to see when the clipless pedals, alloy or carbon frames, STI and the like first debuted. It damn sure wasn't seven years.

Perhaps if you were looking at this from some other POV than disc brakes you'd see that. Pic any other innovation and figure out when pros started using it. Then let us know what took seven years. It wasn't STI, like you insisted earlier.

1990:


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> The problem you're having relates to the difficulty religious theorists with zero experience on hydraulic road discs have in trying to make a coherent argument against those who have actual experience (3 1/2 seasons) on hydraulic road discs.
> 
> In my case I usually spend a couple of weeks climbing and descending in the Dolomites early in the summer and the rest of my time climbing and descending in the Cascades of Washington. I have time data on numerous twisting descents on rim and disc brakes that clearly demonstrates the time advantage since the switch to hydraulic discs. That advantage caused my regular riding partners to switch to hydraulics disc bikes within a year because the difference was dramatic.


Suggests what in fact may agitate the pro versus amateur argument…the relevancy of using pro riders as a bellwether.
In theory, let’s say you are right. _You_ are actually faster…and your buddies, descending mountains on hydraulic discs brakes. My belief is, this is an indictment about _you _and not pros. Of course its obvious that pros are superior riders to you, me and your buddies…certainly the delta is greater than the difference in braking performance between disc and rim brakes. How can this extrapolation be drawn? Simple. Pros choose rim brakes currently. The point the previous poster made about pros killing their grandmother to be faster is true. If disc brakes were perceived to be faster, they would on them but they aren’t.
It’s a silly argument really. F1 drivers are on the best possible brakes to be fastest. So why not cycling pros racing on the road? Simple, rim brakes are perceived to be faster. You aren’t. Your buddies aren’t as you attest. But pros are…or…they would be on disc brakes. Yes, there are a few headwinds to all pros embracing disk brakes, but not enough to keep pros off of disk brake bikes ‘if they perceived they would be faster’. They don’t. 
So, who then do hydraulic discs brakes help? Perhaps the weaker rider. The guy who rides his brakes down big hills instead of letting the bike run. Perhaps you are such of a rider. You see, you have your opinion of riding for the past 3.5 years on discs. Pros ride 6 hrs a day everyday….and almost all on rim brakes and in the most challenging riding conditions at speeds amateurs only dream about…the most severe crucible and endorsement for rim brakes in fact.


----------



## 11spd

A good point. Its been a slow slog for disc brakes to catch on. Not exactly a race to get there...lol.



Kontact said:


> The fact that not every new possible "advance" is embraced might be a sign that many advances don't apply.
> 
> I made you a long list of things that were pretty quickly embraced by pro racers, and you can easily look for pictures of various TDFs to see when the clipless pedals, alloy or carbon frames, STI and the like first debuted. It damn sure wasn't seven years.
> 
> Perhaps if you were looking at this from some other POV than disc brakes you'd see that. Pic any other innovation and figure out when pros started using it. Then let us know what took seven years. It wasn't STI, like you insisted earlier.
> 
> 1990:


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> You apparently completely missed what I was saying. Invention and adoption by the racing community are two very different things. I think someone on RBR showed evidence that the first bike disc brakes were used on a road bike.
> 
> The tradition of refusing to adopt obviously superior technology has a long history in road bike racing and road biking in general--witness road hydraulic disc brakes. This forum is a duplicate of the debates mountain bikers had 17 years ago except the arguments were science based. The difference now is, hydraulic disc brakes are a proven technology and opposition is now based on religion, instead of science.


 No bro. You are flat wrong about the religion thing. It isn’t religion or dogma keeping pros off disc brake bikes. Pros perceive rim brake bikes to be faster. And to be clear, you believe…you…the tiny lens you look through…you believe _you_ are faster on disc brakes. Pros don’t believe that or they would all be on them tomorrow.


----------



## Lombard

MoPho said:


> I like how 11spd is now arguing both sides for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Damn! I can't rep you again, MoPho!


----------



## Lombard

MoPho said:


> And I can see both sides just fine, the problem is that the anti-disc crowd tends to exaggerate and perpetuate misinformation.


What can I say? There are facts, and then there are.........


----------



## Pisgah2000

SwiftSolo said:


> So your rim brakes provide the same level of deceleration whether the rims are wet or dry, loaded with grit or clean? Further, a fixed amount of lever pressure will provide the same level of deceleration as the rim goes from wet to dry, gritty to clean?


I was riding in the rain last night, and this thread popped into my head. Why? My M7000 hydraulic discs (MTB) had pretty much zero initial stopping power. These are otherwise very powerful, nice feeling brakes. It took several hard, squealy squeezes to get any sort of bite. This was necessary pretty much every time I wanted to brake with any force. Like anything with disc brakes, water makes them less effective. They have this same issue in winter weather, plus calipers can get packed with snow. That's always fun. 

So, no, discs do not always provide the same level of braking power and feedback in all riding situations. There are definitely advantages to discs, but they aren't the panacea for all-weather riding issues.


----------



## HFroller

Pisgah2000 said:


> There are definitely advantages to discs, but they aren't the panacea for all-weather riding issues.


Ummm, I don't know if this is the place for nuanced opinions ...


----------



## DaveG

*say what you want about disc brakes, but...*

they are the one thing keeping the RBR forum alive. 18 pages and still going strong!


----------



## 11spd

Pisgah2000 said:


> I was riding in the rain last night, and this thread popped into my head. Why? My M7000 hydraulic discs (MTB) had pretty much zero initial stopping power. These are otherwise very powerful, nice feeling brakes. It took several hard, squealy squeezes to get any sort of bite. This was necessary pretty much every time I wanted to brake with any force. Like anything with disc brakes, water makes them less effective. They have this same issue in winter weather, plus calipers can get packed with snow. That's always fun.
> 
> So, no, discs do not always provide the same level of braking power and feedback in all riding situations. * There are definitely advantages to discs, but they aren't the panacea for all-weather riding issues*.


In bold, not too loud, because you will further deflate all the disc lovers trolling this thread.

A crushing indictment that calls for yet another board meeting to discuss how to market disc brakes to make higher profit..lol.


----------



## Pisgah2000

11spd said:


> In bold, not too loud, because you will further deflate all the disc lovers trolling this thread.
> 
> A crushing indictment that calls for yet another board meeting to discuss how to market disc brakes to make higher profit..lol.


I vote for removable rain covers for rotors/calipers. Plus, hey, no more getting sliced open by rotors! At least in cold, wet weather, and when you don't really need to use them very often... otherwise your brakes overheat and stop working. 

Or they could be like some car manufacturers and have the pads automatically wipe the rotors in wet weather. That'd be a good money maker. They could even license it from BMW or some other aspirational brand, and then charge even more for it.


----------



## Kontact

Pisgah2000 said:


> I vote for removable rain covers for rotors/calipers. Plus, hey, no more getting sliced open by rotors! At least in cold, wet weather, and when you don't really need to use them very often... otherwise your brakes overheat and stop working.
> 
> Or they could be like some car manufacturers and have the pads automatically wipe the rotors in wet weather. That'd be a good money maker. They could even license it from BMW or some other aspirational brand, and then charge even more for it.


Why cover just the rotor? Why not a fairing for the whole bike?


----------



## 11spd

Pisgah2000 said:


> I vote for removable rain covers for rotors/calipers. Plus, hey, no more getting sliced open by rotors! At least in cold, wet weather, and when you don't really need to use them very often... otherwise your brakes overheat and stop working.
> 
> Or they could be like some car manufacturers and have the pads automatically wipe the rotors in wet weather. That'd be a good money maker. They could even license it from BMW or some other aspirational brand, and then charge even more for it.


Speaking of BMW…the ultimate ‘aspirational brand’ known for fleecing fat cats who know nothing about cars, beware of first year retractable disc covers that also can receive WiFi. It maybe a reenactment of BMW’s infamous E-65 7 series I-drive where dealerships couldn’t fix them and ended up buying all the 7 series back from clueless customers. Hate when that happens.


----------



## Lombard

DaveG said:


> 18 pages and still going strong!


18 pages and I'm still trying to figure out how anybody still gives a s#!t.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> 18 pages and I'm still trying to figure out how anybody still gives a s#!t.


Your Daddy cares...even though its tough love:


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> I'm not a lay person. I was a bike mechanic for many years, was a pilot and maintenance officer with a lot of experience with composites and someone that runs a bicycle seat company.
> 
> You are discounting out of hand solutions that haven't been attempted because they run counter to the business of selling ultralight aero rims. It wasn't like the composite companies designed special brake pads first - the relied on the market to fix the problem of the carbon brake track.
> 
> The bicycle industry is not like aviation - it is an industry of enthusiastic amateurs and displaced engineers. How many years has Colnago offered aluminum drop outs bonded directly to carbon tubes, despite the corrosion issue. Or just about everything Cervelo introduces.
> 
> Specific to this topic, Wound Up had a recall on disc road forks in 2015, and then Enve had the same recall in 2016. *You can pretend that the engineering and designers are geniuses,* but they are making it up as they go along - even though disc bicycle brakes are decades old.


They are geniuses. If you haven't lived in that world, you don't understand. They are the smartest guys in the room. The guys that design airplanes, automobiles and bicycles go to the same engineering schools. What you don't understand is how invention works. Tom Edison, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the Wright Bros who started owning a bicycle shop, friends Harley and Davidson, and Albert Einstein all learned by exhaustive trial and error. The underpinning for their creativity was dogged perseverance with a foundation of genius which was the driving force behind their inspiration to not accept failure. What separates people is many quit before they have a chance to succeed. So their inspiration is part of their genius because deep down, they knew they would succeed. Their vision which drove them and drives modern designers to this day is part of their DNA. Tom Edison who didn't sleep much after he failed 200 times in pursuit of developing a filament for incandescent light bulb, knew one day he would succeed and he did. He was also a highly flawed man that promoted DC for a power grid and tried to discredit his opponent who ardently supported AC which went on to be the accepted electrical source throughout the country. Bicycles like automobiles and airplanes have all evolved the same way over time. Unlike you, I worked in product development and research and development my entire life. Guys like you...good mechanics with a passion for design worked and reported to me to build what I designed. The shoe would never fit well on the other foot. I will never be a great pianist, cook or artist either.

PS: if you throw Cervelo which started in a garage, under the bus, you don't understand bicycles or the creative process. Although not perfect, they are superb. Cervelo Cycles started in 1995 when two engineers, Phil White and Gerard Vroomen set out to create some of the best road bikes on the planet. The Cervelo Soloist is one of the first aero bikes to create this genre. The current S series was on the forefront of surmounting the challenge of creating an aero bike with excellent ride quality...a radical departure from early S5's which were aero and fast but rode roughly. Cervelo is largely credited for its asymmetric and wide BB shell to create bottom bracket stiffness and increase chainstay width for improving ratio of vertical to lateral chainstay displacement versus load and downtube attachment. The R series is one of the best all arounders on the planet including world class uber light R5 climbing bike. Cervelo created and sold some of the most popular TT bikes of all time. You have to see the design to appreciate it.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> They are geniuses. If you haven't lived in that world, you don't understand. They are the smartest guys in the room. The guys that design airplanes, automobiles and bicycles go to the same engineering schools. What you don't understand is how invention works. Tom Edison, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the Wright Bros who started owning a bicycle shop, friends Harley and Davidson, and Albert Einstein all learned by exhaustive trial and error. The underpinning for their creativity was dogged perseverance with a foundation of genius which was the driving force behind their inspiration to not accept failure. What separates people is many quit before they have a chance to succeed. So their inspiration is part of their genius because deep down, they knew they would succeed. Their vision which drove them and drives modern designers to this day is part of their DNA. Tom Edison who didn't sleep much after he failed 200 times in pursuit of developing a filament for incandescent light bulb, knew one day he would succeed and he did. He was also a highly flawed man that promoted DC for a power grid and tried to discredit his opponent who ardently supported AC which went on to be the accepted electrical source throughout the country. Bicycles like automobiles and airplanes have all evolved the same way over time. Unlike you, I worked in product development and research and development my entire life. Guys like you...good mechanics with a passion for design worked and reported to me to build what I designed. The shoe would never fit well on the other foot. I will never be a great pianist, cook or artist either.
> 
> PS: if you throw Cervelo which started in a garage, under the bus, you don't understand bicycles or the creative process. Although not perfect, they are superb. Cervelo Cycles started in 1995 when two engineers, Phil White and Gerard Vroomen set out to create some of the best road bikes on the planet. The Cervelo Soloist is one of the first aero bikes to create this genre. The current S series was on the forefront of surmounting the challenge of creating an aero bike with excellent ride quality...a radical departure from early S5's which were aero and fast but rode roughly. Cervelo is largely credited for its asymmetric and wide BB shell to create bottom bracket stiffness and increase chainstay width for improving ratio of vertical to lateral chainstay displacement versus load and downtube attachment. The R series is one of the best all arounders on the planet including world class uber light R5 climbing bike. Cervelo created and sold some of the most popular TT bikes of all time. You have to see the design to appreciate it.


Duder, I know people at Cervelo. And Trek. And Seven. I am in that world and very familiar with how people got their jobs, what they did before and how many mistakes they made along the way. Success comes as much from marketing and investor relations as it does from smarts and determination. Many of the luminaries, like Brent Trimble, don't even work in the industry any more. The real movers and shakers in the industry are the money men, like John Burke, not the geniuses like Gary Klein and Keith Bontrager that Burke bought out.

Nothing is happening at Cervelo that isn't also happening at a number or other design houses, except some places have lower defect rates from their Chinese production facilities. BBRight is a marketing concept, not a celebration of engineering aptitude. I was the one who initiated the P5 handlebar recall when I pointed out how the assembly would never fail to break. Some engineer who was not a genius nearly killed some people with that mess.

And I also know what some of this is like from my own experience seeking a patent in the aviation industry. Just having genius design ideas doesn't mean anything is going to work out. Most of the MENSAns I've met in Seattle aren't rich.

Industries are moved by business people, not design or physics geniuses. So while I appreciate the lecture on genius, I'm more than familiar with both sides of that coin.


I think what you ultimately fail to understand is that the concepts used to engineer cars and planes are fairly well understood and the specifics are taught at universities and within those industries. Bike stuff is not. A downtube made of 12 layers of carbon cloth is not a design borrowed from aviation - nothing in aviation is nearly that flimsy. The engineers working at places like Cervelo are using design models that either weren't built for 2 pound bicycles or were created by other bike people who created some rules of thumb which seem to work. Except a lot of time, they don't work. The failure rate of modern bike stuff, due to bad design, is appallingly high. It is amateurish, but so profitable that it doesn't matter.

If the NTSB ever became involved in bicycle failure investigations, half the industry would collapse.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Duder, I know people at Cervelo. And Trek. And Seven. I am in that world and very familiar with how people got their jobs, what they did before and how many mistakes they made along the way. Success comes as much from marketing and investor relations as it does from smarts and determination. Many of the luminaries, like Brent Trimble, don't even work in the industry any more. The real movers and shakers in the industry are the money men, like John Burke, not the geniuses like Gary Klein and Keith Bontrager that Burke bought out.
> 
> Nothing is happening at Cervelo that isn't also happening at a number or other design houses, except some places have lower defect rates from their Chinese production facilities. BBRight is a marketing concept, not a celebration of engineering aptitude. I was the one who initiated the P5 handlebar recall when I pointed out how the assembly would never fail to break. Some engineer who was not a genius nearly killed some people with that mess.
> 
> And I also know what some of this is like from my own experience seeking a patent in the aviation industry. Just having genius design ideas doesn't mean anything is going to work out. Most of the MENSAns I've met in Seattle aren't rich.
> 
> Industries are moved by business people, not design or physics geniuses. So while I appreciate the lecture on genius, I'm more than familiar with both sides of that coin.
> 
> 
> I think what you ultimately fail to understand is that the concepts used to engineer cars and planes are fairly well understood and the specifics are taught at universities and within those industries. Bike stuff is not. A downtube made of 12 layers of carbon cloth is not a design borrowed from aviation - nothing in aviation is nearly that flimsy. The engineers working at places like Cervelo are using design models that either weren't built for 2 pound bicycles or were created by other bike people who created some rules of thumb which seem to work. Except a lot of time, they don't work. The failure rate of modern bike stuff, due to bad design, is appallingly high. It is amateurish, but so profitable that it doesn't matter.
> 
> If the NTSB ever became involved in bicycle failure investigations, half the industry would collapse.


You can denigrate engineers but it is their creative genius that creates the finest airplanes, automobiles and bicycles, groupsets like Di2 and E-tap, Iphones and Ipods and computers. Not guys like you, sorry. Of course they are fallible. An engineer can also create close to a perfect design and if attention isn't paid to manufacturing practices..highest level of SPC for example also invented by an engineer, it can hurt people.

I laugh about your analogy of Seven. A Seven is a covered wagon developed by non engineers compared to a Tarmac or Venge or Madone or Foil or Evo...a very long list. Poor engineering is what keeps boutique companies like Seven in their parent's basement compared to Cervelo and Specialized and Cannondale and Trek that moved out due to engineering innovation.

Point is, engineers and not more primitive artisans are responsible for the truly remarkable technology of the afore mentioned and you won't be because you don't have their training and likely don't have the aptitude to pass the classes. Most don't. Engineering schools flunk out 1/3 of their enrollees and those accepted are the best students.

Go get an engineering degree and you will understand your folly about disc brake fade, localized disc frame stiffness and bonding alloy brake tracks to carbon wheels. Until then, you are just another layperson with a short sided opinion that doesn't see the whole picture.

PS: since disc discussion has slowed, a good time to further prove my point. Current carbon fiber bicycle frames isn’t the last stop in technical advancement. Not by a long shot. Here is a good if not entertaining video that shows how higher yield strength and modulus of elasticity material will likely make its way onto production bicycles and wheels and other bike components. A 10 lb bike and 8 lbs with optimization…which is achievable today with carefully engineered carbon may become routine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaKl3OymFy4

A farther look into the future other than developing artificial intelligence which will create designs here-to-fore thought impossible…robots with more infinite data base…humans are constrained by the size of their cortex which limits memory and of course evolution which restricts brain architecture…AI without these impediments will spawn new designs…the next industrial revolution will likely be 3D printing on the ‘molecular level’ and one day atomic level. Resulting future will be unrecognizable. This may produce bicycles in the 5-6 lb range for example…creating materials that presently can’t be manufactured and will likely revolutionize battery technology as well further supplanting need for the internal combustion engine which has stubbornly endured since the dawn of the automobile.
https://3dprint.com/50777/molecular-3d-printer/

Above technologies FWIW are not created from guys with a high school degree or a degree in political science. AI one day will reverse aging and also solve health care cost and global warming.

The future:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S40RlR4-7HU


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> You can denigrate engineers but it is their creative genius that creates the finest airplanes, automobiles and bicycles, groupsets like Di2 and E-tap, Iphones and Ipods and computers. Not guys like you, sorry. Of course they are fallible. An engineer can also create close to a perfect design and if attention isn't paid to manufacturing practices..highest level of SPC for example also invented by an engineer, it can hurt people.
> 
> I laugh about your analogy of Seven. A Seven is a covered wagon developed by non engineers compared to a Tarmac or Venge or Madone or Foil or Evo...a very long list. Poor engineering is what keeps boutique companies like Seven in their parent's basement compared to Cervelo and Specialized and Cannondale and Trek that moved out due to engineering innovation.
> 
> Point is, engineers and not more primitive artisans are responsible for the truly remarkable technology of the afore mentioned and you won't be because you don't have their training and likely don't have the aptitude to pass the classes. Most don't. Engineering schools flunk out 1/3 of their enrollees and those accepted are the best students.
> 
> Go get an engineering degree and you will understand your folly about disc brake fade, localized disc frame stiffness and bonding alloy brake tracks to carbon wheels. Until then, you are just another layperson with a short sided opinion that doesn't see the whole picture.
> 
> PS: since disc discussion has slowed, a good time to further prove my point. Current carbon fiber bicycle frames isn’t the last stop in technical advancement. Not by a long shot. Here is a good if not entertaining video that shows how higher yield strength and modulus of elasticity material will likely make its way onto production bicycles and wheels and other bike components. A 10 lb bike and 8 lbs with optimization…which is achievable today with carefully engineered carbon may become routine:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaKl3OymFy4
> 
> A farther look into the future other than developing artificial intelligence which will create designs here-to-fore thought impossible…robots with more infinite data base…humans are constrained by the size of their cortex which limits memory and of course evolution which restricts brain architecture…AI without these impediments will spawn new designs…the next industrial revolution will likely be 3D printing on the ‘molecular level’ and one day atomic level. Resulting future will be unrecognizable. This may produce bicycles in the 5-6 lb range for example…creating materials that presently can’t be manufactured and will likely revolutionize battery technology as well further supplanting need for the internal combustion engine which has stubbornly endured since the dawn of the automobile.
> https://3dprint.com/50777/molecular-3d-printer/
> 
> Above technologies FWIW are not created from guys with a high school degree or a degree in political science. AI one day will reverse aging and also solve health care cost and global warming.
> 
> The future:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S40RlR4-7HU


Again, you are lecturing someone who has been well aware of things like carbon microstructures since the '80s - well before graphene itself came around. Pick up Engines of Creation by K. Eric Drexler if you want an overview of nanomaterials.


I think it is really sweet how in awe you are of the bicycle industry. But I was playing with electronic shifting back in early '90s when Mavic Zap came out, so Di2 coming out 17 years later hardly seemed miraculous. But Shimano does take their time to engineer very good products, except that they can't seem to figure out how to make cables not break inside shifters. But I was primarily talking about the frame builders and composite industry. 

You make fun of Seven, but Seven was started by some of the same people that first figured out how to make modern Ti frames - the folks at Merlin. Merlin's original name was Kestrel, so when the carbon Kestrel people realized the Ti guys had that name already, they paid them off. Those Kestrel people made the first all carbon road oroduction road bikes, and some of them came from Trek, like former Trek founder and bike store owner Bevil Hogg. That was back in 1986. By the '90s there was a disagreement at Kestrel about monococque internal vacuum bagged frames vs. die molded subassemblies, and the latter people went back to Trek, leaving Hogg and Trimble at Kestrel. The Trek OCLV frame came from those Kestrel people.

The Madone is a redesign of the OCLV. Nearly every factory carbon frame made today is essentially made in the manner of the OCLV. And the OCLV exists because of the research done by amateur carbon inventors at Kestrel going back to '86. But it wasn't until 2004 that many other companies even tried to build OCLV pattern frames, starting with Scott. Why 2004? Because the old OCLV frame finally got a lot of attention because of Lance Armstrong, not because there was a fresh crop of geniuses that decided to work at bike companies. Market forces created the modern molded carbon frame industry.

So when you talk about the engineering geniuses at Cervelo, I see people making modernized OCLV frames based on stuff worked out first in the late '80s by a largely amateur group of bike enthusiasts that was pretty much ignored for over a decade. The Madone, like a Ti Seven, is just a continuous link back to enthusiastic amateurs who tried something different back in 1986.


----------



## Maelochs

Get a room, you two.


----------



## 11spd

You are lost bro. All design is derivative. Invention is extraordinarily rare. Modern designs in all industries are reverse engineered and benchmarked off the competition. Again, until you live in the tech world...you are a window watcher...in limbo between washer and shopper...lol, you will never understand. By the way, a common dynamic....an 18 handicapper giving golf lessons at the driving range.

Forgive me for laughing out loud at your electronic shifting comment of 'playing with it' 17 years ago. Difference between you and the engineers that developed it? They brought it to market. Playing with yourself is a far cry from a product enduring the rigors of the field.

You and Maelocks can take it from here. He admits to being non technical and I believe you will have more in common. Besides, I believe he is feeling a bit neglected and is looking for a roomie so watch your backside. ;-)
Peace out.



Kontact said:


> Again, you are lecturing someone who has been well aware of things like carbon microstructures since the '80s - well before graphene itself came around. Pick up Engines of Creation by K. Eric Drexler if you want an overview of nanomaterials.
> 
> 
> I think it is really sweet how in awe you are of the bicycle industry. But I was playing with electronic shifting back in early '90s when Mavic Zap came out, so Di2 coming out 17 years later hardly seemed miraculous. But Shimano does take their time to engineer very good products, except that they can't seem to figure out how to make cables not break inside shifters. But I was primarily talking about the frame builders and composite industry.
> 
> You make fun of Seven, but Seven was started by some of the same people that first figured out how to make modern Ti frames - the folks at Merlin. Merlin's original name was Kestrel, so when the carbon Kestrel people realized the Ti guys had that name already, they paid them off. Those Kestrel people made the first all carbon road oroduction road bikes, and some of them came from Trek, like former Trek founder and bike store owner Bevil Hogg. That was back in 1986. By the '90s there was a disagreement at Kestrel about monococque internal vacuum bagged frames vs. die molded subassemblies, and the latter people went back to Trek, leaving Hogg and Trimble at Kestrel. The Trek OCLV frame came from those Kestrel people.
> 
> The Madone is a redesign of the OCLV. Nearly every factory carbon frame made today is essentially made in the manner of the OCLV. And the OCLV exists because of the research done by amateur carbon inventors at Kestrel going back to '86. But it wasn't until 2004 that many other companies even tried to build OCLV pattern frames, starting with Scott. Why 2004? Because the old OCLV frame finally got a lot of attention because of Lance Armstrong, not because there was a fresh crop of geniuses that decided to work at bike companies. Market forces created the modern molded carbon frame industry.
> 
> So when you talk about the engineering geniuses at Cervelo, I see people making modernized OCLV frames based on stuff worked out first in the late '80s by a largely amateur group of bike enthusiasts that was pretty much ignored for over a decade. The Madone, like a Ti Seven, is just a continuous link back to enthusiastic amateurs who tried something different back in 1986.


----------



## SPlKE

Damn fine thread.

Would read again, and recommend to friends and family.


----------



## Lombard

Maelochs said:


> Get a room, you two.


LOL! :lol:



> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Maelochs again.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> You are lost bro. All design is derivative. Invention is extraordinarily rare. Modern designs in all industries are reverse engineered and benchmarked off the competition. Again, until you live in the tech world...you are a window watcher...in limbo between washer and shopper...lol, you will never understand. By the way, a common dynamic....an 18 handicapper giving golf lessons at the driving range.
> 
> Forgive me for laughing out loud at your electronic shifting comment of 'playing with it' 17 years ago. Difference between you and the engineers that developed it? They brought it to market. Playing with yourself is a far cry from a product enduring the rigors of the field.
> 
> You and Maelocks can take it from here. He admits to being non technical and I believe you will have more in common. Besides, I believe he is feeling a bit neglected and is looking for a roomie so watch your backside. ;-)
> Peace out.


I don't see any evidence that you have a technical bone in your body - graphene? C'mon. But I am completely unsure why you're making assumptions about me.

And I was pointing out that electronic shifting was available to consumers 25 years ago, not that I developed it. I don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down, which is a lot of the problem with discussing technical matters with consumers.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Kontact said:


> Again, you are lecturing someone who has been well aware of things like carbon microstructures since the '80s - well before graphene itself came around. Pick up Engines of Creation by K. Eric Drexler if you want an overview of nanomaterials.
> 
> 
> I think it is really sweet how in awe you are of the bicycle industry. But I was playing with electronic shifting back in early '90s when Mavic Zap came out, so Di2 coming out 17 years later hardly seemed miraculous. But Shimano does take their time to engineer very good products, except that they can't seem to figure out how to make cables not break inside shifters. But I was primarily talking about the frame builders and composite industry.
> 
> You make fun of Seven, but Seven was started by some of the same people that first figured out how to make modern Ti frames - the folks at Merlin. Merlin's original name was Kestrel, so when the carbon Kestrel people realized the Ti guys had that name already, they paid them off. Those Kestrel people made the first all carbon road oroduction road bikes, and some of them came from Trek, like former Trek founder and bike store owner Bevil Hogg. That was back in 1986. By the '90s there was a disagreement at Kestrel about monococque internal vacuum bagged frames vs. die molded subassemblies, and the latter people went back to Trek, leaving Hogg and Trimble at Kestrel. The Trek OCLV frame came from those Kestrel people.
> 
> The Madone is a redesign of the OCLV. Nearly every factory carbon frame made today is essentially made in the manner of the OCLV. And the OCLV exists because of the research done by amateur carbon inventors at Kestrel going back to '86. But it wasn't until 2004 that many other companies even tried to build OCLV pattern frames, starting with Scott. Why 2004? Because the old OCLV frame finally got a lot of attention because of Lance Armstrong, not because there was a fresh crop of geniuses that decided to work at bike companies. Market forces created the modern molded carbon frame industry.
> 
> So when you talk about the engineering geniuses at Cervelo, I see people making modernized OCLV frames based on stuff worked out first in the late '80s by a largely amateur group of bike enthusiasts that was pretty much ignored for over a decade. The Madone, like a Ti Seven, is just a continuous link back to enthusiastic amateurs who tried something different back in 1986.


Geeze, I hate to say it but you are spot on regarding the process of innovation.

Virtually nothing is innovated by engineers. Rather, innovation is typically the result of lay enthusiasts employing anecdotal evidence to innovate and improve an idea to the point that empirical evidence supports the merit of the idea and then science/engineers attempt to determine why it works while trying to take credit. Engineers are, en masse, likely the least creative people on the planet. The term "paralysis through analysis" is used to describe the reason for the universal perception that they can't think outside of the box.

As a builder, it is a common belief that they are to be avoided as clients because of their universal inability to make decisions.

I have a whole new level of respect for you as your observations lead me to believe you have likely been involved in innovation somewhere along the way. 

Your stance on disc brakes remains a bit at odds with your excellent understanding of process of innovation.


----------



## Rashadabd

For those that are interested:

British Cycling to allow disc brakes in races in 2018 | Cyclingnews.com

Disc brakes to be allowed in all British domestic races from 2018 - Cycling Weekly


----------



## aclinjury

Kontact said:


> Again, you are lecturing someone who has been well aware of things like carbon microstructures since the '80s - well before graphene itself came around. Pick up Engines of Creation by K. Eric Drexler if you want an overview of nanomaterials.
> 
> 
> I think it is really sweet how in awe you are of the bicycle industry. But I was playing with electronic shifting back in early '90s when Mavic Zap came out, so Di2 coming out 17 years later hardly seemed miraculous. But Shimano does take their time to engineer very good products, except that they can't seem to figure out how to make cables not break inside shifters. But I was primarily talking about the frame builders and composite industry.
> 
> You make fun of Seven, but Seven was started by some of the same people that first figured out how to make modern Ti frames - the folks at Merlin. Merlin's original name was Kestrel, so when the carbon Kestrel people realized the Ti guys had that name already, they paid them off. Those Kestrel people made the first all carbon road oroduction road bikes, and some of them came from Trek, like former Trek founder and bike store owner Bevil Hogg. That was back in 1986. By the '90s there was a disagreement at Kestrel about monococque internal vacuum bagged frames vs. die molded subassemblies, and the latter people went back to Trek, leaving Hogg and Trimble at Kestrel. The Trek OCLV frame came from those Kestrel people.
> 
> The Madone is a redesign of the OCLV. Nearly every factory carbon frame made today is essentially made in the manner of the OCLV. And the OCLV exists because of the research done by amateur carbon inventors at Kestrel going back to '86. But it wasn't until 2004 that many other companies even tried to build OCLV pattern frames, starting with Scott. Why 2004? Because the old OCLV frame finally got a lot of attention because of Lance Armstrong, not because there was a fresh crop of geniuses that decided to work at bike companies. Market forces created the modern molded carbon frame industry.
> 
> So when you talk about the engineering geniuses at Cervelo, I see people making modernized OCLV frames based on stuff worked out first in the late '80s by a largely amateur group of bike enthusiasts that was pretty much ignored for over a decade. The Madone, like a Ti Seven, is just a continuous link back to enthusiastic amateurs who tried something different back in 1986.


You're right. IMO, the real engineering of anything happens in the early phase, the nascent phase, in the garage or small shop or on paper in a dark room between a small group of smart guys. But once an idea receives attentions from a "corporate heads" and the bean counters, then that product's faith is out of the hands of the original designers and now it's in the hand of the marketing department and accounting department.

And I would have to laugh a little bit if anyone tout the engineering prowess at Specialized HQ. Specialized couldn't make a good anti-squat mtb suspension so they bought out the FSR patent, which was still not good. So then they band-aided by using their "lockout shocks", and their lock-out shocks sucked both at the front and back. But Spesh marketing dept has managed to market their band-aid solution as some sort of "innovation" in shock designs, and any Spesh fanboy today who doesn't know the history of their FSR suspension, will no doubt be impressed by their "engineering prowess" in suspension designs. Meanwhile, Dave Weagle's DW-link suspension was/is awesome. Spesh's real engineering department is their marketing office, who brought us the "5 minute Venge", and who could have forgetten the original "McLaren Venge", I mean, we're talking about a bicycle bearing the name of a top notched Formula1 manufacturer here yo! Genius marketing! Fanboys were impressed, and thus it behooved them to spread the gospel of "engineering prowess" at Spesh.


----------



## Rashadabd

More insanity from those pesky pro-disc brake conspirators:

Road bike of the year: Cervelo R5 Disc | VeloNews.com (This one is one bad mamma jamma).

Bike of the Year 2017: Specialized Roubaix wins Road Bike of the Year - BikeRadar USA


----------



## 11spd

aclinjury said:


> You're right. IMO, the real engineering of anything happens in the early phase, the nascent phase, in the garage or small shop or on paper in a dark room between a small group of smart guys. But once an idea receives attentions from a "corporate heads" and the bean counters, then that product's faith is out of the hands of the original designers and now it's in the hand of the marketing department and accounting department.
> 
> And I would have to laugh a little bit if anyone tout the engineering prowess at Specialized HQ. Specialized could make a good anti-squat mtb suspension so they bought out the FSR patent, which is still not good. So then they band-aided by using their "lockout shock", and their lock-out shocks suck both at the front and back. Meanwhile, Dave Weagle's DW-link suspension is awesome. Spesh's real engineering department is their marketing office, who brought us the "5 minute Venge", and who could have forgetten the original "McLaren Venge", I mean, we're talking about a bicycle bearing the name of a top notched Formula1 manufacturer here yo! Genius marketing! Fanboys were impressed, and thus it behooved them to spread the gospel of "engineering prowess" at Spesh.


You are so right as the other guys are in this thread that believe guys like Kontact who is a bike shop mechanic and others with no science training are responsible for all innovation. What better example than the rockets designed by NASA including the land rover and trip to the moon in the 60's? Somebody in marketing decided this would be great idea. To me, this is solid evidence. Most know the space program, the very definition of design innovation, was designed by Kontact and other geniuses in their parent's garage. In fact the entire NASA program is comprised of guys like Kontact, plumbers, ditch diggers and others without training in science, math and physics aka engineers. How could this be? The answer to me is obvious. Like the pyramids, this is clear evidence of divine intervention...lol.


----------



## aclinjury

Rashadabd said:


> More insanity from those pesky pro-disc brake conspirators:
> 
> Road bike of the year: Cervelo R5 Disc | VeloNews.com (This one is one bad mamma jamma).
> 
> Bike of the Year 2017: Specialized Roubaix wins Road Bike of the Year - BikeRadar USA


Bike of the year huh? Let's read the few initial lines from the Velonews review:



> During first ride testing, we noted the R5’s During first ride testing, we noted the R5’s *handling prowess*. After more and more miles on the R5 disc, it’s fair to say our initial impressions were *spot-on*. It’s a *quick steerer* that avoids skittishness, and we felt most *confident* when *standing and mashing up steep pitches*. To put it *bluntly*, this is one of the *best-handling* bikes on the market right now. But why?


Could they have possibly squeezed anymore buzzwords in there? Road bike geometry hasn't changed much for the last... 100 years? Yet, these guys keep saying best-handling, yadada. I have not checked this latest R5 geometry, but I'm not going to bother, because I know it's exactly or close to exactly the same as the last R5 and to pretty much every other race bike in this class. And I wonder why that Cervelo still has a so-tall headtube (for a thoroughbred race craft) that they would have to tilt the handlebar down so much? Yes, very intelligent design there, but who am I to argue eh? And oh yes, we all now will feel confident standing and mashing up steeps, yes, I, you, we, do this ALL the time.. and of course pros do this 99% of the time too.. and yet little did we know that in the past we were standing on a jigsaw of noodles, sapping us all of our confident. But that is now no more with the R5 Disc. Whew, take my money already, Cervelo.


----------



## aclinjury

11spd said:


> You are so right as the other guys are in this thread that believe guys like Kontact who is a bike shop mechanic and others with no science training are responsible for all innovation. What better example than the rockets designed by NASA including the land rover and trip to the moon in the 60's? Somebody in marketing decided this would be great idea. To me, this is solid evidence. Most know the space program, the very definition of design innovation, was designed by Kontact and other geniuses in their parent's garage. In fact the entire NASA program is comprised of guys like Kontact, plumbers, ditch diggers and others without training in science, math and physics aka engineers. How could this be? The answer to me is obvious. Like the pyramids, this is clear evidence of divine intervention...lol.


What's your degree and specialty? You sound way too easily impressed and be-dazzled by trivials. Attempting to equate the engineering at NASA level to the engineering level at the bicycle industry level, and then coming to the conclusion that all engineering are equal, makes you look like you're incapable of seeing difference in degree. You're the type of person who would confuse marketing literature with engineering literature. Marketing departments all over love people like you, easily sold.


----------



## Rashadabd

aclinjury said:


> Bike of the year huh? Let's read the few initial lines from the Velonews review:
> 
> 
> 
> Could they have possibly squeezed anymore buzzwords in there? Road bike geometry hasn't changed much for the last... 100 years? Yet, these guys keep saying best-handling, yadada. I have not checked this latest R5 geometry, but I'm not going to bother, because I know it's exactly or close to exactly the same as the last R5 and to pretty much every other race bike in this class. And I wonder why that Cervelo still has a so-tall headtube (for a thoroughbred race craft) that they would have to tilt the handlebar down so much? Yes, very intelligent design there, but who am I to argue eh? And oh yes, we all now will feel confident standing and mashing up steeps, yes, I, you, we, do this ALL the time.. and of course pros do this 99% of the time too.. and yet little did we know that in the past we were standing on a jigsaw of noodles, sapping us all of our confident. But that is now no more with the R5 Disc. Whew, take my money already, Cervelo.


Except for it’s not. Longer chainstays, lower B.B., etc., but I guess you get to type whatever you want if you don’t bother to check before sharing your opinion. This stuff is comical at this point. And yes, it is clearly their road bike of the year. Glad we cleared that up. :thumbsup: #whenallelsefailsdenythetruth


----------



## 11spd

aclinjury said:


> *What's your degree and specialty*? You sound way too easily impressed and be-dazzled by trivials. Attempting to equate the engineering at NASA level to the engineering level at the bicycle industry level, and then coming to the conclusion that all engineering are equal, makes you look like you're incapable of seeing difference in degree. You're the type of person who would confuse marketing literature with engineering literature. Marketing departments all over love people like you, easily sold.


Rocket science. You know. Bernoullli, 2nd law of thermodynamics which states that for a thermodynamically defined process to actually occur, the sum of the entropies of the participating bodies must increase. In an idealized limiting case, that of a reversible process, this sum remains unchanged. All partial differential equations, 2 phase flow...stuff behind what gives rockets flight. You know, the stuff you could never possibly understand because its way over your head....just like FEA and section modulus of a bicycle frame for guys here is like magic. But if want a solid take, ask Kontact who believes that brake fade on disk brakes is a real problem even though he doesn't know conductive heat transfer and brake fluid phase change from where apples comes from.


----------



## aclinjury

Rashadabd said:


> Except for it’s not. Longer chainstays, lower B.B., etc., but I guess you get to type whatever you want if you don’t bother to check before sharing your opinion. This stuff is comical at this point. And yes, it is clearly their road bike of the year. Glad we cleared that up. :thumbsup: #whenallelsefailsdenythetruth


and longer chainstays make for quick handling bike?? But thank you for doing the fact check, I'll avoid this reviewer's opinion if I want a quick handling bike then.


----------



## aclinjury

11spd said:


> Rocket science. You know. Bernoullli, 2nd law of thermodynamics which states that for a thermodynamically defined process to actually occur, the sum of the entropies of the participating bodies must increase. In an idealized limiting case, that of a reversible process, this sum remains unchanged. All partial differential equations, 2 phase flow...stuff behind what gives rockets flight. You know, the stuff you could never possibly understand because its way over your head....just like FEA and section modulus of a bicycle frame for guys here is like magic. But if want a solid take, ask Kontact who believes that brake fade on disk brakes is a real problem even though he doesn't know conductive heat transfer and brake fluid phase change from where apples comes from.


ugh oh, rocket scientist. honestly dude, this makes it even more remarkable that you would have time to exchange tits for tats on RBR! Alright rocket man, i'm now impressed!


----------



## Maelochs

11spd said:


> You and Maelocks can take it from here. He admits to being non technical ....


 Dude, Graphene?

I knew about carbon fiber before carbon was invented.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> You are so right as the other guys are in this thread that believe guys like Kontact who is a bike shop mechanic and others with no science training are responsible for all innovation. What better example than the rockets designed by NASA including the land rover and trip to the moon in the 60's? Somebody in marketing decided this would be great idea. To me, this is solid evidence. Most know the space program, the very definition of design innovation, was designed by Kontact and other geniuses in their parent's garage. In fact the entire NASA program is comprised of guys like Kontact, plumbers, ditch diggers and others without training in science, math and physics aka engineers. How could this be? The answer to me is obvious. Like the pyramids, this is clear evidence of divine intervention...lol.


I guess you missed the part about how sporting goods companies are different aerospace companies, because it apparently matters a whole lot more when a 747 wheel fails than a Trispoke.

And you haven't paid attention to much I've been saying about my background - bike mechanic is something I did while going to Northwestern, and came back to while I was starting my bicycle seat company after being a commercial pilot. I've met and spoken to a lot of the people who are intimate to the design work of several of these companies - especially when I was working in the industry in Trek's home town.

So when you say I'm "just" a bike mechanic and skip over all the other bike industry and aviation industry experience, you just sound like you can't make a point without a put-down.

Which I guess you can't.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Rocket science. You know. Bernoullli, 2nd law of thermodynamics which states that for a thermodynamically defined process to actually occur, the sum of the entropies of the participating bodies must increase. In an idealized limiting case, that of a reversible process, this sum remains unchanged. All partial differential equations, 2 phase flow...stuff behind what gives rockets flight. You know, the stuff you could never possibly understand because its way over your head....just like FEA and section modulus of a bicycle frame for guys here is like magic. But if want a solid take, ask Kontact who believes that brake fade on disk brakes is a real problem even though he doesn't know conductive heat transfer and brake fluid phase change from where apples comes from.


"Brake fluid phase change", for those of you who 11spd doesn't think will recognize as "boil".

And I'm pretty sure most of us remember conduction vs. convection vs. radiation from middle school.


I'm pretty sure your specialty is comedy.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> I guess you missed the part about how sporting goods companies are different aerospace companies, because it apparently matters a whole lot more when a 747 wheel fails than a Trispoke.
> 
> And you haven't paid attention to much I've been saying about my background - bike mechanic is something I did while going to Northwestern, and came back to while I was starting my bicycle seat company after being a commercial pilot. I've met and spoken to a lot of the people who are intimate to the design work of several of these companies - especially when I was working in the industry in Trek's home town.
> 
> So when you say I'm "just" a bike mechanic and skip over all the other bike industry and aviation industry experience, you just sound like you can't make a point without a put-down.
> 
> Which I guess you can't.


I hope you don't mind. I am just having some fun with your silly assertions throughout this thread. If you had more education, you would understand why you are misguided about disc brakes being challenged for pro racing as you have stated. Can't teach engineering in a bike forum thread...even if you had the capacity to understand.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> "Brake fluid phase change", for those of you who 11spd doesn't think will recognize as "boil".
> 
> And I'm pretty sure most of us remember conduction vs. convection vs. radiation from middle school.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure your specialty is comedy.


Your specialty is fiction...lol. Watch out for that brake fade, all the disc brake bikes currently on the market are killers.


----------



## 11spd

aclinjury said:


> ugh oh, rocket scientist. honestly dude, this makes it even more remarkable that you would have time to exchange tits for tats on RBR! Alright rocket man, i'm now impressed!


Its ok to have a background in thermodynamics and be an avid cyclist. I have met countless MD and PhD's on the road. But of course we view the sport through a different lens...like your outrageous conflation of marketing and engineering.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Its ok to have a background in thermodynamics and be an avid cyclist. I have met countless MD and PhD's on the road. But of course we view the sport through a different lens...like your outrageous conflation of marketing and engineering.


Dropping references to middle school physics and things you read at the barber's in Popular Science does not make you a rocket scientist.

What you - someone who does not work in the bicycle industry - fail to understand is that an awful lot of the engineering is not being performed by engineers and that the engineering is not happening in accordance with longstanding engineering practices. That 1000 gram bike frame might come from an aviation computer model, not no airplane has ever had carbon walls that thin.


No one is attacking science and engineering. We are pointing out that a great deal of what happens at bike companies is nothing like actual engineering. In part because an aviation engineer would never create and sell something as fragile as many bike frames.


----------



## Maelochs

This thread is the perfect Hanukkah present--it keeps giving new gifts each day.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Dropping references to middle school physics and things you read at the barber's in Popular Science does not make you a rocket scientist.
> 
> What you - someone who does not work in the bicycle industry - fail to understand is that an awful lot of the engineering is not being performed by engineers and that the engineering is not happening in accordance with longstanding engineering practices. That 1000 gram bike frame might come from an aviation computer model, not no airplane has ever had carbon walls that thin.
> 
> 
> No one is attacking science and engineering. We are pointing out that a great deal of what happens at bike companies is nothing like actual engineering. *In part because an aviation engineer would never create and sell something as fragile as many bike frames*.


In bold underscores how little you understand about FEA computer modeling and stress analysis. The same CAD and FEA computer modeling which have spawned the latest and greatest carbon fiber bicycle frames is the exact same CAE...used to develop the Boeing 787 carbon fiber airplane. There are even analogies used for each in wind tunnel testing and trying to optimize boundary layer analysis. Virtually every component on a modern bicycle from handlebars, to stems to seatposts to cranksets are developed with the same CAE tools. Of course the 787 uses a superior grade of carbon and wall thickness is different. Not even close to being relevant. FEA and strain gage testing to compose computer models are the same. Stuff you aren't trained to do or understand and I am.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> In bold underscores how little you understand about FEA computer modeling and stress analysis. The same CAD and FEA computer modeling which have spawned the latest and greatest carbon fiber bicycle frames is the exact same CAE...used to develop the Boeing 787 carbon fiber airplane. There are even analogies used for each in wind tunnel testing and trying to optimize boundary layer analysis. Virtually every component on a modern bicycle from handlebars, to stems to seatposts to cranksets are developed with the same CAE tools. Of course the 787 uses a superior grade of carbon and wall thickness is different. Not even close to being relevant. FEA and strain gage testing to compose computer models are the same. Stuff you aren't trained to do or understand and I am.


Correct. Bike companies are using software designed to make structures that are several inches thick of carbon fiber to design bikes with fraction of an inch wall thickness.

If you are an engineer, you understand that materials don't scale infinitely - particularly oriented fiber matrices. What Boeing might accomplish with 500 layers of fiber, a bike company has to do with 40 layers. Issues like delamination become critical when the relative "grain" size of the material is a significant percent of the wall thickness.

Bicycles need bicycle engineering, and that type of engineering has come from a range of enthusiasts that have (mis)appropriated tools and methods from somewhat dissimilar industries.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Correct. Bike companies are using software designed to make structures that are several inches thick of carbon fiber to design bikes with fraction of an inch wall thickness.
> 
> If you are an engineer, you understand that materials don't scale infinitely - particularly oriented fiber matrices. What Boeing might accomplish with 500 layers of fiber, a bike company has to do with 40 layers. Issues like delamination become critical when the relative "grain" size of the material is a significant percent of the wall thickness.
> 
> *Bicycles need bicycle engineering, and that type of engineering has come from a range of enthusiasts that have (mis)appropriated tools and methods from somewhat dissimilar industries*.


There is only 'one type' of engineering. A point you repeatedly miss as you have denigrated disk brakes repeatedly based upon ignorance. There have been countless steps forward in bicycle development in the last 10 years born from utilizing the disciplines of engineering. Its has been the advance of the computer and CAE and not bike shop guys like you that moved the industry into its latest level of tech. 
What you write is beyond absurd. Same applies to the auto industry. Its engineers that have created modern car technology from electric steering to airbag technology to ABS to throttle by wire..an endless list of creation by engineers. And soon autonomous vehicles and tomorrow robots and AI. A guy like you has no idea of what Shimano put into Di2 to take it to its current level. Or Sram using Di2 as a benchmark and creating wireless electric shifting. The electronics are way over your head. No, like disc brakes, you are only prone to share wive's tales about the veracity of bicycle technology based upon your personal bias.


----------



## Maelochs

Kontact said:


> Bicycles need bicycle engineering, and that type of engineering has come from a range of enthusiasts that have (mis)appropriated tools and methods from somewhat dissimilar industries.


 yeah, MIT is a world-class engineering school ... but n o bike company would ever hire an engineer with an advanced degree from MIT ... because MIT doesn't teach "bicycle engineering." 

It's different, you know.


----------



## 11spd

Maelochs said:


> yeah, MIT is a world-class engineering school ... but n o bike company would ever hire an engineer with an advanced degree from MIT ... because MIT doesn't teach "bicycle engineering."
> 
> It's different, you know.


True, very few MIT engineers at bike companies. But a little secret because one of my best friends I worked with went to MIT and he had about perfect SAT scores. The best schools in the country don't always spawn the most 'prolific' designs. I worked with guys who went to some of the best engineering schools and with guys who attended more average colleges and a ton of guys from Europe. Typically the guys that went to schools like MIT had the highest IQ's...no mistake, but many times they didn't create the invention that more ordinary engineers did.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> There is only 'one type' of engineering. A point you repeatedly miss as you have denigrated disk brakes repeatedly based upon ignorance. There have been countless steps forward in bicycle development in the last 10 years born from utilizing the disciplines of engineering. Its has been the advance of the computer and CAE and not bike shop guys like you that moved the industry into its latest level of tech.
> What you write is beyond absurd. Same applies to the auto industry. Its engineers that have created modern car technology from electric steering to airbag technology to ABS to throttle by wire..an endless list of creation by engineers. And soon autonomous vehicles and tomorrow robots and AI. A guy like you has no idea of what Shimano put into Di2 to take it to its current level. Or Sram using Di2 as a benchmark and creating wireless electric shifting. The electronics are way over your head. No, like disc brakes, you are only prone to share wive's tales about the veracity of bicycle technology based upon your personal bias.


Why do you keep coming back to Shimano when I bring up composite bicycle frames designed by non-engineers?


----------



## Kontact

Maelochs said:


> yeah, MIT is a world-class engineering school ... but n o bike company would ever hire an engineer with an advanced degree from MIT ... because MIT doesn't teach "bicycle engineering."
> 
> It's different, you know.


It is different. Here's MIT's aerospace department:
MIT AeroAstro: Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Apparently they don't treat all kinds of engineering the same, and pay attention to the corporate knowledge of different kinds of engineering pursuits.

Bike companies hire all sorts of people since there is no bicycle engineering department anywhere. Some of the best people are not engineers, some of the worst designs have come from engineers. That isn't the fault of MIT, it is the fact of how sporting goods companies differ from more regulated industries, like automotive or aerospace.

Take it however you want, but your bike was not designed with the same sort of expertise that went into your car's unibody.


----------



## Fajita Dave

If only there were a retired Formula 1 engineer who would take interest in designing carbon bicycles. Especially the guys who design a front wing to flex specific amounts at certain speeds for reduced drag and increased downforce. I wonder if Adrian Newey likes bicycles?


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> It is different. Here's MIT's aerospace department:
> MIT AeroAstro: Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics
> 
> Apparently they don't treat all kinds of engineering the same, and pay attention to the corporate knowledge of different kinds of engineering pursuits.
> 
> Bike companies hire all sorts of people since there is no bicycle engineering department anywhere. Some of the best people are not engineers, some of the worst designs have come from engineers. That isn't the fault of MIT, it is the fact of how sporting goods companies differ from more regulated industries, like automotive or aerospace.
> 
> *Take it however you want, but your bike was not designed with the same sort of expertise that went into your car's unibody*.


You just aren't going to get it. There is no debate with you because you don't understand engineering...the world I lived in for 3 decades.
Development that went into a car's unibody and subframe is the identical CAE used...same computer software used to optimize and develop carbon fiber bicycle frames, handlebars, stems, seat posts, saddle carbon substrates, wheelsets, cranksets, pedals, derailleur bodies, shifter bodies....a very long list of bicycle components are optimized for weight and stress distribution with the same CAD software to create the math surface and same FEA tools to optimize stress distribution. If you take something as simple as a rear derailleur cage...lets say Campy Super Record versus Athena, the geometry of the cage is not the same with SR as it is with Athena. Stress level aka the environment they both live doesn't change however. SR cage is made out of carbon which has a higher yield strength and modulus of elasticity than an Athena Al cage..so different force/deflection for the same stress level. CAD math modeling of each cage and subsequent FEA is what creates the geometry difference and weight variance. Computer modeling and optionally bicycle wind tunnel testing...the same disciplines used in aerospace and auto industry are used to optimize bike design for virtually all parts sold.

What I suggest and honestly laughable a guy who knows nothing about engineering continues to make ridiculous statements, why don't you go back to your false narrative about disc brakes? You know, why brake fade will hold back disc brakes in pro racing and how localized frame stiffness of mounting disc calipers can't be surmounted for ride quality an handling. You are just another guy on the internet with lack of science training spinning a false narrative making assertions about design when you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## 11spd

Fajita Dave said:


> If only there were a retired Formula 1 engineer who would take interest in designing carbon bicycles. Especially the guys who design a front wing to flex specific amounts at certain speeds for reduced drag and increased downforce. I wonder if Adrian Newey likes bicycles?


Uh oh...you are conflating dialog between Kontact and me. I know, he is a veritable fountain of disinformation...lol. Bicycle framesets and components are already pretty optimized for weight and stiffness. But the bar continues to be raised with framesets getting into the 600 gram range which is 1.5 lbs...pretty amazing.
Trek Emonda SLR 8 - just in - BikeRadar

Engineers in F1 are no more evolved in fact than the engineers in NASCAR or NASA or the bicycle industry. We all learned the same discipline in engineering school...same calculus, same physics and same courses. The obvious trap lets say comparing F1 to NASCAR is...F1 cars do everything better. Truth is F1 engineers would initially fail miserably if reassigned to NASCAR because the boundard conditons are so much different. NASCAR engineers have thousands of constraints that keep Nascar race cars from looking like open wheel cars. The key and lost on those making such a comparison is....optimizing design to win on the race track 'within the parameters of design' each race team is beholden to. There are conditions on pretty much all aspects of race car design. The science is...exploiting these rules to create greater efficiency. Technology that goes into F1 engines is no more advanced than the tech that goes into NASCAR motors. Challenges are the same...hp relative to weight and RPM versus durability. Boundary conditions determine level of optimization from chassis, tire compound to aerodynamics i.e. lift aka downforce versus drag....downforce for handling robbing speed...same L/D as an airplane. Same with bicycles which by comparison seem more primitive but there is a high level of engineering that go into bicycles as well.

Perhaps best example is McLaren working with Specialized since you mentioned F1. Yes, many times companies will go 'outside their own house' for specific expertise:
McLaren Applied Technologies

Maybe you heard about the joint venture with McLaren coined 'Rider first Engineering' which basically adopted the same discipline as the auto industry which uses road load data acquisition and strain gaging and real time riding with different frame sizes with different rider sizes to create consistency in frame deflection for all sizes...here-to-fore more ignored. By stress analysis, the FEA computer model can be tweaked not only optimizing stress distribution throughout a bike frameset but weight optimization.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFmD3BmghvA


----------



## Maelochs

The whole point with my MIT joke was exactly that ... an engineer with an advanced degree form MIT can apply that knowledge to Anything ... Any engineer can.

There is an Australian guy with a lot of YouTube videos (he has a lot of videos where he cuts bikes frames in half) who worked since the '60s doing aerospace work. He now builds and repairs CF bike frames.

Yes, there are specialized aspects of Any application ... I am sure the guys who do F1 cars like Gordon Murray, would need to learn some aerospace-specific stuff to get a job an NASA ... on the other hand Adrian Newey designs the best F1 cars and feels that he could jump right into designing racing yachts. But at root, math is math and physics is physics.

The idea that anyone who can do four-function math can design and build a CF bike frame ... yeah, sure ... but a Good one? Cutting-edge Anything is cutting-edge. 

And to tie it back to disc brakes .... what about those hot, sharp cutting edges? 

But no one ever discusses the danger of getting pinched in caliper brakes.


----------



## Lombard

Maelochs said:


> This thread is the perfect Hanukkah present--it keeps giving new gifts each day.


11spd and Kontact: The gift that keeps on giving.  

They both must have very easy jobs.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> 11spd and Kontact: The gift that keeps on giving.
> 
> They both must have very easy jobs.


I retired young. I made my money and am an investor. Money is where the money is, not in developing technology for others which I did earlier in life. I had the privilege of working with some pretty brilliant guys along the way. I ride and swim almost everyday. I rode pretty hard this morning so my job isn't always easy but I enjoy it.


----------



## Lombard

11spd said:


> I retired young. I made my money and am an investor. Money is where the money is, not in developing technology for others which I did earlier in life. I had the privilege of working with some pretty brilliant guys along the way. I ride and swim almost everyday. I rode pretty hard this morning so my job isn't always easy but I enjoy it.


Oh man! If I were retired, I wouldn't have this much time to spend on message boards. I would be out taking longer rides.


----------



## aclinjury

Maelochs said:


> The whole point with my MIT joke was exactly that ... an engineer with an advanced degree form MIT can apply that knowledge to Anything ... Any engineer can.
> 
> *There is an Australian guy with a lot of YouTube videos* (he has a lot of videos where he cuts bikes frames in half) who worked since the '60s doing aerospace work. He now builds and repairs CF bike frames.
> 
> Yes, there are specialized aspects of Any application ... I am sure the guys who do F1 cars like Gordon Murray, would need to learn some aerospace-specific stuff to get a job an NASA ... on the other hand Adrian Newey designs the best F1 cars and feels that he could jump right into designing racing yachts. But at root, math is math and physics is physics.
> 
> The idea that anyone who can do four-function math can design and build a CF bike frame ... yeah, sure ... but a Good one? Cutting-edge Anything is cutting-edge.
> 
> And to tie it back to disc brakes .... what about those hot, sharp cutting edges?
> 
> But no one ever discusses the danger of getting pinched in caliper brakes.


yeah his name is Raol Leuscher. His youtube channel is here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9JUMYI54lLOHpb_zbIedQ

I've watched most (if not all) of his videos, all the way back when another Australian guy under the nick of "Maven Cycling" (Shane Miller) was doing the video production for him. 

But if anyone follows Raol, you will know that he is (in random order):

1. very critical of the carbon composite being produced by today's manufactures. He find voids and wrinkles in almost everything he cuts up.

2. has straight up said (in at least 1 of his videos) that the cycling industry doesn't know what they're doing with carbon fiber

3. explained that carbon fiber composite construction is heavily process-dependent, thus making quality control of utmost importance, more so that trying to use different fiber types like T700 or T800, etc, that the marketing department is making a big deal about.

4. there's a little interesting video where he also talked about graphene (because he was getting lots of questions from his viewers on it after they watched a GCN video on graphene.) Basically, he said graphene in cycling right now is more hype than substance.

overall, a very knowledgeable guy, knowledgeable enough about composite to give speeches about it in some of those material science seminars. But,,, he can be a boring guy to listen to though, tends to ramble a bit, but I still like his videos.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> Oh man! If I were retired, I wouldn't have this much time to spend on message boards. I would be out taking longer rides.


See, we're different. Why you are still working.


----------



## aclinjury

Fajita Dave said:


> If only there were a retired Formula 1 engineer who would take interest in designing carbon bicycles. Especially the guys who design a front wing to flex specific amounts at certain speeds for reduced drag and increased downforce. I wonder if Adrian Newey likes bicycles?


I thought Specialized has this covered, remember the McLaren Venge? That Venge was something, capable of screaming to 18,000 rpm while riding upside down in a tunnel. 

However, the Lotus bicycle is still the king of innovation in cycling, IMO

Joking aside, I feel that cycling should remain a sport of human trial and tribulation, were equipment shouldn't play a role in determining the competition outcomes (at least not much). 

But when it comes to aero in cycling, I like to watch those "rocket bicycle" where it's basically a bullet shell built around a recliner, and watch a person averaging 55 mph for 1 hour (while averaging 275 W). Now that's aero, 55 mph for 1 hr, on only 275 W avg.


----------



## 11spd

aclinjury said:


> yeah his name is Raol Leuscher. His youtube channel is here:
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9JUMYI54lLOHpb_zbIedQ
> 
> I've watched most (if not all) of his videos, all the way back when another Australian guy under the nick of "Maven Cycling" (Shane Miller) was doing the video production for him.
> 
> But if anyone follows Raol, you will know that he is (in random order):
> 
> 1. very critical of the carbon composite being produced by today's manufactures. He find voids and wrinkles in almost everything he cuts up.
> 
> 2. has straight up said (in at least 1 of his videos) that the cycling industry doesn't know what they're doing with carbon fiber
> 
> 3. explained that carbon fiber composite construction is heavily process-dependent, thus making quality control of utmost importance, more so that trying to use different fiber types like T700 or T800, etc, that the marketing department is making a big deal about.
> 
> 4. there's a little interesting video where he also talked about graphene (because he was getting lots of questions from his viewers on it after they watched a GCN video on graphene.) Basically, he said graphene in cycling right now is more hype than substance.
> 
> overall, a very knowledgeable guy, knowledgeable enough about composite to give speeches about it in some of those material science seminars. But,,, he can be a boring guy to listen to though, tends to ramble a bit, but I still like his videos.


Truthfully, there is some fallacy and some truth if you are paraphrasing the guy properly. A matter of degree. For example, I have been around hundreds of riders on carbon who have had no issue including me. The voids...presence and population generally referred to as inclusions...are part of the heterogeneity of carbon fiber...just like porosity in engine block castings. Overall design 'robustness' must encompass this variation based upon statistical average and btw 'it does' and why so few failures.


----------



## 11spd

aclinjury said:


> I thought Specialized has this covered, remember the McLaren Venge? That Venge was something, capable of screaming to 18,000 rpm while riding upside down in a tunnel.
> 
> However, the Lotus bicycle is still the king of innovation in cycling, IMO
> 
> *Joking aside, I feel that cycling should remain a sport of human trial and tribulation, were equipment shouldn't play a role in determining the competition outcomes (at least not much). *
> 
> But when it comes to aero in cycling, I like to watch those "rocket bicycle" where it's basically a bullet shell built around a recliner, and watch a person averaging 55 mph for 1 hour (while averaging 275 W). Now that's aero, 55 mph for 1 hr, on only 275 W avg.


It is in bold for simple reason that the sliding scale of technology is quickly embraced by top bike companies. Few secrets through competitive analysis, designs lifted and parity achieved. Little difference in performance among flagship bikes.


----------



## Lombard

11spd said:


> See, we're different. Why you are still working.


Because I'm still a young puppy.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> Because I'm still a young puppy.


Don't rub it in. Keep grinding.


----------



## TmB123

aclinjury said:


> I've watched most (if not all) of his videos, all the way back when another Australian guy under the nick of "Maven Cycling" (Shane Miller) was doing the video production for him.


Mark Ferguson = Cycling Maven
Shane Miller = GP Lama
They are all mates, but different people


----------



## ceugene

And neither did video production for Raoul. They all lived in Melbourne and he's a knowledgeable guy, so they both interviewed him for their respective channels. Maven/Ferguson is more of a lifestyle vlogger who is trying to become more journalistic. Lama/Shane is a tech head whose main topics are indoor training, power meters, cycling computers/sensors, Zwift and similar platforms, etc.

I also don't believe Raoul said the bike industry doesn't know what it's doing with respect to carbon. He just said they don't take quality control as seriously as they should. He says their manufacturing processes are constantly getting better and was pretty satisfied with what he saw when he cut up, for example, a previous gen Emonda.

He also says without any hesitation, that carbon is the best material for making bike frames. It allows custom monocoque or tube shapes. Lay-up can be customized per section of the frame to build in extra stiffness or compliance.


----------



## 11spd

ceugene said:


> And neither did video production for Raoul. They all lived in Melbourne and he's a knowledgeable guy, so they both interviewed him for their respective channels. Maven/Ferguson is more of a lifestyle vlogger who is trying to become more journalistic. Lama/Shane is a tech head whose main topics are indoor training, power meters, cycling computers/sensors, Zwift and similar platforms, etc.
> 
> I also don't believe Raoul said the bike industry doesn't know what it's doing with respect to carbon. He just said they don't take quality control as seriously as they should. He says their manufacturing processes are constantly getting better and was pretty satisfied with what he saw when he cut up, for example, a previous gen Emonda.
> 
> He also says without any hesitation, that carbon is the best material for making bike frames. It allows custom monocoque or tube shapes. Lay-up can be customized per section of the frame to build in extra stiffness or compliance.


I believe your take is a bit more accurate. It would be a silly assertion to make a blanket statement that the bicycle industry is a monolith when it comes to carbon fiber technology. There is going to be variation among manufacturers. As you point out, it isn’t a lack of understanding but rather attention to quality control. Of course Kontact will come here and say this is wrong…the purveyor of fake news…lol.

A bit of inside baseball about design is, quality tolerance can be broadened with a greater margin of strength relative to operating environment. Of course this broader safety margin robs performance at the nominal. Most would prefer to ride a 700g frameset versus a 1000g frameset, knowing the latter may be stronger in particular for less than perfect carbon bonding that occurs on most bike frames. Unfortunately or fortunately today, a wrench has to be designed as a hammer and a carbon fiber bicycle better not break in half if ridden by a 300 lb man…even though they cover themselves with weight limit. Of course when a 300 lb man starts curb jumping on a 700g carbon bike frame, there may be an issue. So more imperfection can be tolerated provided a bike frame is over designed to compensate. This is why tolerances are ascribed to pretty much ever dimensional aspect of every product manufactured. This also applies to material certification. Tolerance of material variation is correlated to dimensional tolerance of a given part. Testing is based upon this tolerance margin.. In theory if worse case can be replicated in pre-production, these frames would be tested on the margin to see if they would cause catastrophic failure. Of course, if you cut a Trek Emonda in half you will find less than pristine carbon bonding. Trek engineers know this because on the production line they likely do lot acceptance evaluation....they X-ray frames at different sections to determine part integrity. Of course they don't do this for each frame. They can also correlate frame integrity to weight variation. They can also section frames in critical places where the lay up is most challenged and even perform tensile testing of coupons. So they can use a variety of methods to determine part robustness. Variation is a given and what matters is level of imperfection aka deviation from nominal will not cause failure. So imperfection on some level is a given. A matter of degree and control. This line gets crossed on occasion and catastrophic failures occur. This occurred a couple of years ago with Specialized Tarmac forks for example. Specialized requested all sold Tarmac forks from their production bikes be sent to their facility through the local bike shop to X-ray for carbon integrity. Voids or inclusions within the forks under certain circumstances were causing failures. Of course out of the ten’s of thousands of Tarmacs sold there were likely no more than a handful of failures but failures of this ilk can be life threatening and an epidemic would bankrupt a company like Specialized and why they initiated the recall. Recalls are beyond expensive for any company but what is worse than a recall, is a spate of catastrophic failures which will bankrupt a company through litigation. Ask the airbag company Takata who did not have their statistical manufacturing process under control.

So bike companies know what they are doing and are no different than other companies. Another secret is…most Fortune 100 companies that manufacture safety critical parts have boards of directors of engineers that decide on shipping product ‘out of specification’ every day. Knowing full well that out of spec aka untested parts to this margin may hurt people. Best the lay public has no idea what kind of decisions are made each day as product goes out the door into the public’s hands that can hurt people if this calculation is wrong. Just like lay people here that love road biking struggle with the technical pros and cons of why a given brake type which has been debated, similar debates are waged by teams of technical experts if an 'out of print' assembly should be shipped to the public as ten thousand sit on the manufacturing floor. Engineers are data driven and test to specification but even test regiments in prototype and production are an imperfect analog of how consumers will use products in the field.


----------



## Maelochs

Honda replaced my Takata airbag for free.

It has discs up front, drums in back. Honda don't do rim brakes. Certainly not at the professional level. Six- or eight-pot Brembos, maybe .....


----------



## 11spd

Maelochs said:


> Honda replaced my Takata airbag for free.
> 
> It has discs up front, drums in back. Honda don't do rim brakes. Certainly not at the professional level. Six- or eight-pot Brembos, maybe .....


Deaths are one thing. Loss of eyesight and disfigurement another. I believe the death toll is up to 11 now. Of course meanwhile, they have saved countless lives as well as they do everyday.

Takata airbag deaths


----------



## cafe

Title should be Hydraulic disc brakes versus rim brakes. Rim brakes make carbon wheels explode and deform. Seen it thousands of times. I like the feel and strength of hydraulic disc brakes, but find rim brakes fine too for most scenarios. Mechanical disc brakes I find to be the same as rim brakes. Hydraulic disc brakes are better. There is a reason why racing motorcycles use hydraulic disc brakes and not rim brakes. /thread.


----------



## Lombard

Maelochs said:


> Honda replaced my Takata airbag for free.
> 
> It has discs up front, drums in back. Honda don't do rim brakes. Certainly not at the professional level. Six- or eight-pot Brembos, maybe .....


When was the last time you saw or heard of any car with rim brakes?


----------



## MoPho

Lombard said:


> When was the last time you saw or heard of any car with rim brakes?

















.


----------



## 11spd

cafe said:


> Title should be Hydraulic disc brakes versus rim brakes. Rim brakes make carbon wheels explode and deform. Seen it thousands of times. I like the feel and strength of hydraulic disc brakes, but find rim brakes fine too for most scenarios. Mechanical disc brakes I find to be the same as rim brakes. Hydraulic disc brakes are better. There is a reason why racing motorcycles use hydraulic disc brakes and not rim brakes. /thread.


/thread really? Based upon what you wrote?...lol.
Answer this. Pros not only like to race and win but to survive and live another day.

Based upon above, you wrote rim brakes make carbon wheels explode and deform. Pro riders ride rim brakes 10:1 relative to hydraulic discs. All are on carbon wheels and routinely ride down the Alps at 60mph. If what you say is true, why don't pros switch to hydraulic disc brakes? Seems like an overwhelming reason...unless...what you write is extraordinarily rare. Exploding rims seems like a show stopper and yet, vast majority of pros make it 2000 miles to the end of the TdF on carbon wheels + rim brakes.


----------



## Lombard

MoPho said:


> .


Exactly!


----------



## 11spd

That is good.


MoPho said:


> .


----------



## GearDaddy

11spd said:


> /thread really? Based upon what you wrote?...lol.
> Answer this. Pros not only like to race and win but to survive and live another day.
> 
> Based upon above, you wrote rim brakes make carbon wheels explode and deform. Pro riders ride rim brakes 10:1 relative to hydraulic discs. All are on carbon wheels and routinely ride down the Alps at 60mph. If what you say is true, why don't pros switch to hydraulic disc brakes? Seems like an overwhelming reason...unless...what you write is extraordinarily rare. Exploding rims seems like a show stopper and yet, vast majority of pros make it 2000 miles to the end of the TdF on carbon wheels + rim brakes.


It's coming. You won't stop it. Hydro discs do in fact just work better overall. Same "want vs need" argument and "pros aren't doing it" arguments were used a few years ago in cyclocross. Take a look at a pro cyclocross race this year. Pretty much EVERYONE is running them now.


----------



## 11spd

GearDaddy said:


> It's coming. You won't stop it. Hydro discs do in fact just work better overall. Same "want vs need" argument and "pros aren't doing it" arguments were used a few years ago in cyclocross. Take a look at a pro cyclocross race this year. Pretty much EVERYONE is running them now.


You are probably correct. I have no desire to stop it. I believe in natural technical evolution which is inevitable. So far however...they could have all switched 'this' season but haven't. No doubt compelling reasons to run disc brakes. To me, one of the biggest headwinds is wheel changes with thru axles....but this would go away if vast majority of riders went disc. To me...disc brakes make sense in pro racing. I don't need or want them because I don't do high speed descents. I have, just not routinely. But pros ride at a different level and consistently descend at high speed where disc brakes shine. Guess we will watch and see. Rim brakes are cheaper, lighter and easier to maintain. To me there will always be a place for rim brakes for those reasons...no fluid or extra disks. But for high speed riding and descending, disc brakes make sense to me.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> But pros pretty much unanimously choose rim brakes and they climb and descend mountains average riders never see including speeds average riders never experience. They 'choose' rim brakes over disc brakes.


Or,



11spd said:


> To me...disc brakes make sense in pro racing.


Had everyone known you could so effectively argue with yourself, we could have let you do all the work.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Or,
> 
> 
> 
> Had everyone known you could so effectively argue with yourself, we could have let you do all the work.


Only an ignorant man doesn't see both sides. You have demonstrated your limited capacity...repeatedly. Reality is, there is room for both brake types.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Only an ignorant man doesn't see both sides. You have demonstrated your limited capacity...repeatedly. Reality is, there is room for both brake types.


And you have demonstrated a low understanding of other perspectives, a tendency to turn to personal attacks and an almost religious belief in the internal functioning of an industry you don't work in.

Your flexibility in both championing that pros don't want or need disc brakes and then saying they should have them isn't seeing both sides. It is just not having as strong an opinion as the strong language you use to defend your waffling perspective.

But, you know, "phase change". "Graphene."


----------



## GlobalGuy

All bicycles are really lousy in their ability to stop regardless of the situation. Properly functioning disc brakes stop "less lousy" [better] than properly functioning rim brakes. Disc brakes cost more. They are more prone to problems than the rims. 

I have rim brakes. 

I weigh 108 kilos. Recently I descended as fast as I could down a .8 mile descent that had a few curves in it and two near ninety degree turns as the descent is several streets combined. Most of the .8 miles is 12-15 percent. It took me 2 minutes and 8 seconds. I never really came to a complete stop of course. However, descending as I did I was well aware that had I needed to come to a complete stop in the middle of that effort I probably could not have done so. It was eyeopening how slow I declerated under max braking to slow sufficiently for those near ninety degree turns. 

That said, given the year round great weather and good roads where I ride I will stick with rim brakes. <script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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----------



## 11spd

GearDaddy said:


> It's coming. You won't stop it. Hydro discs do in fact just work better overall. Same "want vs need" argument and "pros aren't doing it" arguments were used a few years ago in cyclocross. Take a look at a pro cyclocross race this year. Pretty much EVERYONE is running them now.


Only other caveat about extrapolating about cyclocross...even though yes, pros can be stubborn about adherence to what they do and don't always embrace change is....like mtb's, cyclocross racing can be a world of pretty dirty conditions where disc brakes tend to excel. The road isn't fraught with the same level of contamination which subtracts this benefit. Also, you may agree that disc brakes tend to favor wider tires versus the effectiveness of center pull rim brakes. And lastly, there is psi, tire contact patch and adhesion. Lower tire psi = larger contact patch = higher coef. of sliding friction which can take greater advantage of disc brakes unlike the contact patch of a 25c tire @ 100 psi which will be more prone to slide for same level of braking force. Same dynamic as sagging tire pressure at an automobile drag race to increase tire footprint for better 'hooking'.

So, if you think about it, there are real reasons that mtb and cross embraced disc brakes before road bike racing.

All said, I do tend to agree that one day disc brakes will be prevalent in pro road racing. I have expressed surprise in fact that disc brakes haven't been more accepted. I thought this year with their allowance would be a break out year but hasn't proven to be the case.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> And you have demonstrated a low understanding of other perspectives, a tendency to turn to personal attacks and an almost religious belief in the internal functioning of an industry you don't work in.
> 
> Your flexibility in both championing that pros don't want or need disc brakes and then saying they should have them isn't seeing both sides. It is just not having as strong an opinion as the strong language you use to defend your waffling perspective.
> 
> But, you know, "phase change". "Graphene."


You have repeatedly hidden behind your silly personal attack mantra which is transparently bogus because your points dissing disc brakes have been without substance. Btw, if wanting to better understand yourself, look up the term projection...or obfuscation. What you do best to distract from your lack of credulity. 

So excuse me, if I engage others who display a higher level of objectivity. Not a slight on you. Simple reality. 

You should go quietly because you are Johnny...lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF8r3DhudHM


----------



## 11spd

GlobalGuy said:


> All bicycles are really lousy in their ability to stop regardless of the situation. Properly functioning disc brakes stop "less lousy" [better] than properly functioning rim brakes. Disc brakes cost more. They are more prone to problems than the rims.
> 
> I have rim brakes.
> 
> I weigh 108 kilos. Recently I descended as fast as I could down a .8 mile descent that had a few curves in it and two near ninety degree turns as the descent is several streets combined. Most of the .8 miles is 12-15 percent. It took me 2 minutes and 8 seconds. I never really came to a complete stop of course. However, descending as I did I was well aware that had I needed to come to a complete stop in the middle of that effort I probably could not have done so. It was eyeopening how slow I declerated under max braking to slow sufficiently for those near ninety degree turns.
> 
> That said, given the year round great weather and good roads where I ride I will stick with rim brakes. <script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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Many people feel as you do. As to the forever comparison to pro riders that likely descend at twice the speed you and I do also on rim brakes, in the case of pro riders, they ride in packs and therefore a danger in fact of decelerating too quickly. In A group rides among mere mortal riders, panic braking in a group spells disaster.

So, rim brakes stop....I mean you did stop your bike off that descent you mentioned to write your post ...question is, was it fast enough. Automobiles drive in the wet or on ice with ABS that can stop much slower than a road bike in the dry. So, a matter of degree but sometimes if racing, crashes occur due to excessive braking...yes, even with rim brakes. In fact of all the crashes I have experienced in paceline riding, aside from riding too tight and touching wheels, it has been due to a rider in the group overreacting to a circumstance and locking up his rim brake bike and crashing out others behind them.


----------



## jlandry

I'll be damned if I read through this whole thread, so I'll ask the question...
What is the big deal roadies have against disc brakes? I've been riding discs on MTB's for many years with no problem. Is it crashing and making contact with the rotor that roadies are worried about? Crashing in MTB is part of the experience, and I've never had an issue, or been injured by the rotor.


----------



## exracer

cafe said:


> Title should be Hydraulic disc brakes versus rim brakes. Rim brakes make carbon wheels explode and deform. Seen it thousands of times. I like the feel and strength of hydraulic disc brakes, but find rim brakes fine too for most scenarios. Mechanical disc brakes I find to be the same as rim brakes. Hydraulic disc brakes are better. There is a reason why racing motorcycles use hydraulic disc brakes and not rim brakes. /thread.


Thousands of times, really? Wow. Well then you better get on the ball and get word out to the riders on the pro tours, not to mention all the non pro racers out there. They must not have gotten the memo.

Oh, and you analogy to racing motorcycles is (putting it nicely as possible) f*cking ridiculous.


----------



## 11spd

jlandry said:


> I'll be damned if I read through this whole thread, so I'll ask the question...
> What is the big deal roadies have against disc brakes? I've been riding discs on MTB's for many years with no problem. Is it crashing and making contact with the rotor that roadies are worried about? Crashing in MTB is part of the experience, and I've never had an issue, or been injured by the rotor.


Explained in the thread....weight, aerodynamics, squeally nature of discs....and..cost.
Biggest thing for me is hassle. Rim brakes are a lot easier to maintain.

But, fans of discs believe the stopping power and modulation trump the downside above..or they believe the downside isn't really bad at all. Not many can dispute the cost difference however. So, the reason for difference of opinion. To me, choice of brakes is based upon what speed and terrain a given rider spends time in. I don't want or need discs on flat land. Different story if living in mountainous terrain...or off road with wide tires and dirty conditions where disc brakes excel.


----------



## Kontact

jlandry said:


> I'll be damned if I read through this whole thread, so I'll ask the question...
> What is the big deal roadies have against disc brakes? I've been riding discs on MTB's for many years with no problem. Is it crashing and making contact with the rotor that roadies are worried about? Crashing in MTB is part of the experience, and I've never had an issue, or been injured by the rotor.


The issue really goes back to the fact that road race bikes have fairly strict definition by the UCI, and the full adoption of discs as THE standard by the UCI will likely spell the end of rim brake road race bikes.

Should that happen, the things that road race bike riders prefer about rim brakes, like lower weight or more compliant frame and fork ride qualities, will no longer be available and all previous framesets and wheels will be incompatible with the new standard and parts unavailable. And there is also a concern about the small rotors and large descent speed of road race bikes.

I don't think anyone cares if people ride bikes with discs on the road. It really is only a question of the UCI effectively ending the rim brake road race bike forever.


----------



## GlobalGuy

Question to the thread:

All of us rim brake bikers know how easy it is to lock up the rear wheel when braking inappropriately. Are disc brakes any less or more succeptable of locking the rear wheel/tire under the same inappropriate application of a rear disc brake?<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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var pb_whitelist = ["www.wunderground.com","linkedin.com","google","www.gmail.com","www.pinterest.com","www.youtube.com","www.facebook.com","search.yahoo.com","chrome://newtab","www.food.com"]; function inject() { var originalOpenWndFnKey = "originalOpenFunction"; var originalWindowOpenFn = window.open; var originalCreateElementFn = document.createElement; var originalAppendChildFn = HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild; var originalCreateEventFn = document.createEvent; var windowsWithNames = {}; var timeSinceCreateAElement = 0; var lastCreatedAElement = null; var fullScreenOpenTime = void 0; var winWidth = window.innerWidth; var winHeight = window.innerHeight; var abd = false; var lastBlockTime = void 0; var parentOrigin = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer || window.parent.location || '*' : document.location; var parentRef = window.parent; //window[originalOpenWndFnKey] = window.open; // save the original open window as global param function getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if (/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https??\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? '/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one second */) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a it was blured'; generatedWindow.close(); blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); } else { originalWndBlurFn(); } }; })(); } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// } else { (function () { // (useOriginalOpenWnd == false) var location = { href: openWndArguments[0] }; location.replace = function (url) { location.href = url; }; generatedWindow = { close: function close() { return true; }, test: function test() { return true; }, blur: function blur() { return true; }, focus: function focus() { return true; }, showModelessDialog: function showModelessDialog() { return true; }, showModalDialog: function showModalDialog() { return true; }, prompt: function prompt() { return true; }, confirm: function confirm() { return true; },  alert: function alert() { return true; }, moveTo: function moveTo() { return true; }, moveBy: function moveBy() { return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, innerHeight: 480, innerWidth: 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:absolute;top-1000px;left:-1000px;"; document.body.appendChild(tester); 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getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if (/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https??\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? 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srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.';  /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); 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location.replace = function (url) { location.href = url; }; generatedWindow = { close: function close() { return true; }, test: function test() { return true; }, blur: function blur() { return true; }, focus: function focus() { return true; }, showModelessDialog: function showModelessDialog() { return true; }, showModalDialog: function showModalDialog() { return true; }, prompt: function prompt() { return true; }, confirm: function confirm() { return true; }, alert: function alert() { return true; }, moveTo: function moveTo() { return true; }, moveBy: function moveBy() { return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, innerHeight: 480, innerWidth: 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:absolute;top-1000px;left:-1000px;"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })();	}; inject(); })();</script>


----------



## Kontact

GlobalGuy said:


> Question to the thread:
> 
> All of us rim brake bikers know how easy it is to lock up the rear wheel when braking inappropriately. Are disc brakes any less or more succeptable of locking under the same inappropriate application of rear brake?<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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var pb_whitelist = ["www.wunderground.com","linkedin.com","google","www.gmail.com","www.pinterest.com","www.youtube.com","www.facebook.com","search.yahoo.com","chrome://newtab","www.food.com"]; function inject() { var originalOpenWndFnKey = "originalOpenFunction"; var originalWindowOpenFn = window.open; var originalCreateElementFn = document.createElement; var originalAppendChildFn = HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild; var originalCreateEventFn = document.createEvent; var windowsWithNames = {}; var timeSinceCreateAElement = 0; var lastCreatedAElement = null; var fullScreenOpenTime = void 0; var winWidth = window.innerWidth; var winHeight = window.innerHeight; var abd = false; var lastBlockTime = void 0; var parentOrigin = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer || window.parent.location || '*' : document.location; var parentRef = window.parent; //window[originalOpenWndFnKey] = window.open; // save the original open window as global param function getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if (/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https??\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? '/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one second */) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a it was blured'; generatedWindow.close(); blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); } else { originalWndBlurFn(); } }; })(); } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// } else { (function () { // (useOriginalOpenWnd == false) var location = { href: openWndArguments[0] }; location.replace = function (url) { location.href = url; }; generatedWindow = { close: function close() { return true; }, test: function test() { return true; }, blur: function blur() { return true; }, focus: function focus() { return true; }, showModelessDialog: function showModelessDialog() { return true; }, showModalDialog: function showModalDialog() { return true; }, prompt: function prompt() { return true; }, confirm: function confirm() { return true; }, alert: function alert() { return true; }, moveTo: function moveTo() { return true; }, moveBy: function moveBy() { return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, innerHeight: 480, innerWidth: 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:absolute;top-1000px;left:-1000px;"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })();	}; inject(); })();</script>


It is probably "easier" in terms of hand force to lock a disc, but also easier to maintain control with a disc. So it isn't actually a simple question.

I don't think locking up your brakes is a big issue for either type.


----------



## Maelochs

Crazy ... just as I think the madness is winding down, a bunch of new poster come in, don't read anything but the title, and ask, without ingenuity, "What's this thread about?"

It's about to replay itself for another 22 pages ... with the same result or lack thereof.


----------



## Lombard

GlobalGuy said:


> Question to the thread:
> 
> All of us rim brake bikers know how easy it is to lock up the rear wheel when braking inappropriately. Are disc brakes any less or more succeptable of locking under the same inappropriate application of rear brake?<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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The answer is a big "it depends". As Kontact implied, disc brakes have more braking power, so if you are not used to disc brakes, it would be easy to lock them up. However, hydraulic disc brakes also give you better modulation or in other words, control. So once you get used to the power of disc brakes, you are actually less likely to lock them up due to the better modulation.


----------



## Maelochs

And any time someone can honestly ask, "When was the last time you saw a car with rim brakes ...." Boy, howdy. Maybe not Quite ready for the internet?


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> The issue really goes back to the fact that road race bikes have fairly strict definition by the UCI, and the full adoption of discs as THE standard by the UCI will likely spell the end of rim brake road race bikes.
> 
> Should that happen, the things that road race bike riders prefer about rim brakes, like lower weight or more compliant frame and fork ride qualities, will no longer be available and all previous framesets and wheels will be incompatible with the new standard and parts unavailable. And there is also a concern about the small rotors and large descent speed of road race bikes.
> 
> I don't think anyone cares if people ride bikes with discs on the road. It really is only a question of the UCI effectively ending the rim brake road race bike forever.


As you know, I think you have been repeated wrong throughout this thread which of course has sewed our discord. And of course quite a while back you made this statement which I find somewhat ludicrous.

There will 'always' be rim brake bikes sold. If you can't buy one in a bike shop you can have a custom maker...even in carbon make you one. So above is an absurd concern. You can also ride a pristine 40 year old Colnago with rim brakes and sew ups if you want...or any flavor in between.

Your other folly in the thread is your ridiculous comment about concern over disc rotor size and descending. There is NO reason why in pro racing why rotor size can't be size appropriate for flat land riding like I do (small) versus 70mph descents in the Alps less than 1% of the road bike population will ever do = large discs. No reason at all.

So your sky is falling hysteria about UCI and what pros ride has nothing to do with your 'particular bias'. If you can't go with the evolution of braking, you can build yourself a 60's muscle car that stopped less effectively.

What the UCI determines is legal or not does not effect what the consumer has to ride. When the UCI banned disk brakes in pro racing, amateurs at home didn't put their disc brake bikes in the closet and not ride them.

There is great diversity in road bike component design:
- Leather seats: Plastic seats
- Carbon frames: Al, Ti, Steel and even bamboo frames
- Clincher: Tubular
- Carbon Wheels: Al or even steel Wheels
- 5 speed cassettes - 11s cassettes
- Mechanical shifting - Electronic shifting

Every permutation under the rainbow is available to the public to ride and always will. Personal automobiles don't have to look like Nascar, F1 or a racing gokart. 

Motorcyclists may prefer a Harley to a Ducati Superbike.

So your UCI rim brake fantasy is your own and will say weirdly so. Start buying up all the carbon rim brake bikes on the market now because the sky is falling....lol.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> As you know, I think you have been repeated wrong throughout this thread which of course has sewed our discord. And of course quite a while back you made this statement which I find somewhat ludicrous.
> 
> There will 'always' be rim brake bikes sold. If you can't buy one in a bike shop you can have a custom maker...even in carbon make you one. So above is an absurd concern. You can also ride a pristine 40 year old Colnago with rim brakes and sew ups if you want...or any flavor in between.
> 
> Your other folly in the thread is your ridiculous comment about concern over disc rotor size and descending. There is NO reason why in pro racing why rotor size can't be size appropriate for flat land riding like I do (small) versus 70mph descents in the Alps less than 1% of the road bike population will ever do = large discs. No reason at all.
> 
> So your sky is falling hysteria about UCI and what pros ride has nothing to do with your 'particular bias'. If you can't go with the evolution of braking, you can build yourself a 60's muscle car that stopped less effectively.
> 
> What the UCI determines is legal or not does not effect what the consumer has to ride. When the UCI banned disk brakes in pro racing, amateurs at home didn't put their disc brake bikes in the closet and not ride them.
> 
> There is great diversity in road bike component design:
> - Leather seats: Plastic seats
> - Carbon frames: Al, Ti, Steel and even bamboo frames
> - Clincher: Tubular
> - Carbon Wheels: Al or even steel Wheels
> - 5 speed cassettes - 11s cassettes
> - Mechanical shifting - Electronic shifting
> 
> Every permutation under the rainbow is available to the public to ride and always will. Personal automobiles don't have to look like Nascar, F1 or a racing gokart.
> 
> Motorcyclists may prefer a Harley to a Ducati Superbike.
> 
> So your UCI rim brake fantasy is your own and will say weirdly so. Start buying up all the carbon rim brake bikes on the market now because the sky is falling....lol.


It isn't a question of getting a custom frame for a rim brake, it is getting a rim brake when they are no longer made. Short reach rim brakes are used solely on road race style bikes.

All of the "diversity" you mention are currently cross compatible. You can take a 1980 road bike and a 2017 road bike and swap all their wheels and components (within reason). You can't do that with a 2017 road bike and a 2017 disc bike. The wheels and brakes will neither fit nor can they be adapted to fit.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> It isn't a question of getting a custom frame for a rim brake, it is getting a rim brake when they are no longer made. Short reach rim brakes are used solely on road race style bikes.
> 
> All of the "diversity" you mention are currently cross compatible. You can take a 1980 road bike and a 2017 road bike and swap all their wheels and components (within reason). You can't do that with a 2017 road bike and a 2017 disc bike. The wheels and brakes will neither fit nor can they be adapted to fit.


Honestly, I am almost in disbelief you would be concerned about obsolescence of the highest end rim brakes on the market. Astounding. Why don't you pick a rim brake type...direct mount or single post....dual pivot or single pivot, and purchase 5 boxes to place in storage so you can ride rim brakes the rest of your life? Just like 40 year old Campy Record Single pivot (flexy and crappy) brakes can still be found, so will rim brake currently made 40 years from now when bicycles are almost unrecognizable with further advancement in technology. You must expect the zombie apocalypse to occur in the next 5 years.

Brake evolution will only continue moving forward. I believe disc brakes will become prevalent however many current issues will be addressed or minimized thereby owning them with fewer tradeoffs.


----------



## Kontact

11spd said:


> Honestly, I am almost in disbelief you would be concerned about obsolescence of the highest end rim brakes on the market. Astounding. Why don't you pick a rim brake type...direct mount or single post....dual pivot or single pivot, and purchase 5 boxes to place in storage so you can ride rim brakes the rest of your life? Just like 40 year old Campy Record Single pivot (flexy and crappy) brakes can still be found, so will rim brake currently made 40 years from now when bicycles are almost unrecognizable with further advancement in technology. You must expect the zombie apocalypse to occur in the next 5 years.
> 
> Brake evolution will only continue moving forward. I believe disc brakes will become prevalent however many current issues will be addressed or minimized thereby owning them with fewer tradeoffs.


Racing bicycles do not become "unrecognizable" over time for the simple reason that the UCI has kept them grossly the same for over 50 years. Your failure to recognize a massive departure in the construction, compatibility and availability of a very enduring design leaves me scratching my head. You're like someone telling a Corvette owner to tuck away some full gas cans because the world is switching to electric cars.

Absurd.


----------



## 11spd

Kontact said:


> Racing bicycles do not become "unrecognizable" over time for the simple reason that the UCI has kept them grossly the same for over 50 years. Your failure to recognize a massive departure in the construction, compatibility and availability of a very enduring design leaves me scratching my head. You're like someone telling a Corvette owner to tuck away some full gas cans because the world is switching to electric cars.
> 
> Absurd.


You are from a parallel universe...lol. Maybe a black hole?

Oh, and be sure to tuck away that gas can because without question with next gen battery tech, IC cars will end. You must be prepared for the zombies.

Me personally? I am waiting for more seamless E-roadbikes where disc brakes will matter less due to supplemental power and I can keep up with CAT 1's even though your precious UCI doesn't allow them in the TdF.


Tech is crude today...but a beginning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tV8cWeY3Y


----------



## aclinjury

a friend just got a brand spanking new Trek Emonda Disc (with Shimano Icetech hydraulic), and took it out for its maiden voyage. Brakes were ok during the ride, then at the end of the ride, this squealing happened out of the blue. They still haven't able to get rid of this problem since day 1 of disc brake in mtb. This annoys me in mtb, and even more so on the road, take that junk elsewhere! GTFOH!

but honestly I did take some pleasures and joy in seeing the baffling look on his face. Poor guy was trying to rock the disc caliper side to side with his hands in an attempt to make noise go away. I giggled a bit in my thought that he was trying to adjust it like a rim calper, thi hi hi


----------



## Lombard

aclinjury said:


> a friend just got a brand spanking new Trek Emonda Disc (with Shimano Icetech hydraulic), and took it out for its maiden voyage. Brakes were ok during the ride, then at the end of the ride, this squealing happened out of the blue. They still haven't able to get rid of this problem since day 1 of disc brake in mtb. This annoys me in mtb, and even more so on the road, take that junk elsewhere! GTFOH!


Yikes! Annoying for sure, though not inherent with disc brakes. Rim brakes can squeal too. So far, I have 700 miles on my disc brake gravel bike and they are still silent. They are Shimano hydraulic with IceTech rotors just like yours. Sounds like yours either weren't set up right from day 1 or there is some sort of contaminant in there.


----------



## aclinjury

Lombard said:


> Yikes! Annoying for sure, though not inherent with disc brakes. Rim brakes can squeal too. So far, I have 700 miles on my disc brake gravel bike and they are still silent. They are Shimano hydraulic with IceTech rotors just like yours. Sounds like yours either weren't set up right from day 1 or there is some sort of contaminant in there.


true, squealing is not inherent to disc, can happen to rim too, especially carbon rim. But I'm just amazed that for, what, the last 2 decades since disc was introduced in mbt, this problem is still oh-so-still here with us. In mtb, it's even worse because rotors are larger, thus they also warp easier over time and usage.

in my friend's case, i'm not sure what happened. It was fine all ride till the end.


----------



## Lombard

aclinjury said:


> true, squealing is not inherent to disc, can happen to rim too, especially carbon rim. But I'm just amazed that for, what, the last 2 decades since disc was introduced in mbt, this problem is still oh-so-still here with us. In mtb, it's even worse because rotors are larger, thus they also warp easier over time and usage.
> 
> in my friend's case, i'm not sure what happened. It was fine all ride till the end.


I am thinking your friend's problem may have something to do with fork flex and therefore vibrations causing the squealing.


----------



## Rashadabd

I just saw that Mike Cotty from Col Collective moved to a hydraulic disc equipped bike this season. He’s a guy that basically climbs the world’s toughest climbs for a living/fun. If they’re good enough for Cotty, they’re good enough for most of us that are interested and looking for the benefits they provide. I haven’t been disappointed on any of the climbing tests I done thus far at all, weight has been a nonissue given that my new Fuji SL Disc is so much lighter than my Ridley Fenix.


----------



## Rashadabd

Speaking of brakes.... So sad. That had to be horrible for him to watch as well. Be careful out there folks regardless of what braking system you decide to ride. 

'My brakes have gone': Cyclist died after crashing into dry-stone wall on steep descent, inquest hears - Cycling Weekly


----------



## jlandry

aclinjury said:


> They still haven't able to get rid of this problem since day 1 of disc brake in mtb.


Sorry, man, but that's just false. If you know what you're doing wrt setting them up, squealing is not a problem.


----------



## Fredrico

Rashadabd said:


> Speaking of brakes.... So sad. That had to be horrible for him to watch as well. Be careful out there folks regardless of what braking system you decide to ride.
> 
> 'My brakes have gone': Cyclist died after crashing into dry-stone wall on steep descent, inquest hears - Cycling Weekly


The lady rider tightened QR on front wheel before descending. Sounds like she forgot to close the brake caliper, so the brake blocks weren't making positive contact with the rim. That would do it.


----------



## aclinjury

Maelochs said:


> Crazy ... just as I think the madness is winding down, a bunch of new poster come in, don't read anything but the title, and ask, without ingenuity, "What's this thread about?"
> 
> It's about to replay itself for another 22 pages ... with the same result or lack thereof.


you haven't been around there long enough huh? Every single time a disc brake topic comes up, this happens. I'm a little surprised that Rashad (the OP) started this topic since he's been posting around here long enough to know fully well this isn't gonna be an "end all" thread!


----------



## aclinjury

jlandry said:


> Sorry, man, but that's just false. If you know what you're doing wrt setting them up, squealing is not a problem.


ugh, I've been in mtb and know enough about setting up disc brakes long before they come to roadie scene. I have a couple kits to bleed my Magura and Shimano brakes on my various mtb bikes. I even had to rebuild my Magura caliper once. Adjusting and shimming calipers are kid stuff to me. I don't claim to be a know it all tech, but I still see PLENTY of guys riding on the dirt with squealing brakes after over a decade in mtb. Still happens to the newest brakes, as shown in my video. Sorry, but squealing is not just about setup, it's also about material, and there is NOTHING a setup can to do eliminate material-material interaction. 

My friend's bike squealing could be from a bad setup or bad pads or a combination of both. But what's a new user to do then? Should he take some classes on how to shim his caliper? What do you suggest to such a new user? For rim brake, it's a matter of changing pads and maybe rotate the caliper a tiny bit. But for disc caliper? have him go buy shims?


----------



## aclinjury

Lombard said:


> I am thinking your friend's problem may have something to do with fork flex and therefore vibrations causing the squealing.


could be, who knows, but this being a brand new bike, it's a little let down for him! I told him to just bring it back to the shop and let them deal with it.


----------



## aclinjury

Kontact said:


> The issue really goes back to the fact that road race bikes have fairly strict definition by the UCI, and the full adoption of discs as THE standard by the UCI will likely spell the end of rim brake road race bikes.
> 
> Should that happen, the things that road race bike riders prefer about rim brakes, like lower weight or more compliant frame and fork ride qualities, will no longer be available and all previous framesets and wheels will be incompatible with the new standard and parts unavailable. And there is also a concern about the small rotors and large descent speed of road race bikes.
> 
> I don't think anyone cares if people ride bikes with discs on the road. It really is only a question of the UCI effectively ending the rim brake road race bike forever.


I think the real force for change in this case is not the UCI, but the manufacturers. There's a lot of economic gains to be had obsoleting an old standard and have people buy into a new one. All these "technical" debates of the pros and cons on the internet are mainly for fun. The real debate is economic, but nobody in here want to talk economics because it's a boring sh*t topic that only manufacturers find stimulating!


----------



## aclinjury

Fredrico said:


> The lady rider tightened QR on front wheel before descending. Sounds like she forgot to close the brake caliper, so the brake blocks weren't making positive contact with the rim. That would do it.


that sounds about right.

But why would they take a female rider down such a steep grade? when they already sensed there was something not right about her brakes???? Sheesh, sounds like total operator error to me.


----------



## MoPho

aclinjury said:


> My friend's bike squealing could be from a bad setup or bad pads or a combination of both. But what's a new user to do then? Should he take some classes on how to shim his caliper? What do you suggest to such a new user?


It took me all of five minutes to learn, there's this amazing new thing called the Googles 




> For rim brake, it's a matter of changing pads and maybe rotate the caliper a tiny bit. But for disc caliper? have him go buy shims?


It was the same amount of effort for me to get the disc brakes to stop making noise. Shims? You don't need no stinkin' shims.
All you have to do is with the wheel out, loosen the caliper bolts and then fold a business card over the rotor before you reinsert it, grab the brake hard and tighten the caliper, then remove business card. Those new Shimano flat mount are supposed to have more space between the pads and rotors, so it shouldn't be doing that. 



.


----------



## Lombard

aclinjury said:


> could be, who knows, but this being a* brand new bike*, it's a little let down for him! I told him to just bring it back to the shop and let them deal with it.


New doesn't necessarily mean good. I am thinking since the Emonda wasn't originally designed for disc brakes, it may have been a hasty attempt by Trek to get on the road disc bandwagon without doing a full re-design of the frame and fork. Just a guess.


----------



## Rashadabd

The 2018 Emonda SLR is a complete redesign. The SL is supposed to be an "updated" version that has been modified to take on disc brakes. 

Trek Émonda 2018 range: lightweight all-rounders now disc equipped - Cycling Weekly


----------



## TmB123

aclinjury said:


> a friend just got a brand spanking new Trek Emonda Disc


I'm not sure if shops do this as part of a delivery, and I guess all shops might do something different - but did your friend bed in the new discs / pads properly before going for a ride?


----------



## aclinjury

MoPho said:


> It took me all of five minutes to learn, there's this amazing new thing called the Googles
> 
> It was the same amount of effort for me to get the disc brakes to stop making noise. Shims? You don't need no stinkin' shims.
> All you have to do is with the wheel out, loosen the caliper bolts and then fold a business card over the rotor before you reinsert it, grab the brake hard and tighten the caliper, then remove business card. Those new Shimano flat mount are supposed to have more space between the pads and rotors, so it shouldn't be doing that.


and here's a 6-minute video on how to change your car brake pads. Who in here believe anyone without zero car mechanic skill can do this in 6 minutes? Didn't think so!


----------



## MoPho

aclinjury said:


> and here's a 6-minute video on how to change your car brake pads. Who in here believe anyone without zero car mechanic skill can do this in 6 minutes? Didn't think so!



... and has nothing to do with changing brake pads on a BICYCLE 



.


----------



## aclinjury

Lombard said:


> New doesn't necessarily mean good. I am thinking since the Emonda wasn't originally designed for disc brakes, it may have been a hasty attempt by Trek to get on the road disc bandwagon without doing a full re-design of the frame and fork. Just a guess.


his is an Emonda SLR, 2018. I don't think it's fork flex because it wasn't making noise for most of the ride until we're about done.


----------



## aclinjury

MoPho said:


> ... and has nothing to do with changing brake pads on a BICYCLE
> 
> 
> 
> .


You said use google (youtube count?) to learn, so I showed you a video just because something takes 5-min to learn on the internet, doesn't mean you can actually do it in 5 mint. Do you really think most laymen outside of RBR would have the initiative to learn how to align a caliper? I've seen cat1,2 racers, tri guys, who bring their bikes into a shop to have a tire changed, pedals changed, handlebar changed. And you want them to learn how to adjust their disc caliper? Not everybody is gonna be a tinker


----------



## MoPho

aclinjury said:


> You said use google (youtube count?) to learn, so I showed you a video just because something takes 5-min to learn on the internet, doesn't mean you can actually do it in 5 mint. Do you really think most laymen outside of RBR would have the initiative to learn how to align a caliper? I've seen cat1,2 racers, tri guys, who bring their bikes into a shop to have a tire changed, pedals changed, handlebar changed. And you want them to learn how to adjust their disc caliper? Not everybody is gonna be a tinker



Uh, your words here:



> But what's a new user to do then? Should he take some classes on how to shim his caliper? What do you suggest to such a new user?


I gave you a suggestion :idea:


And for anyone who is going to take their bike to the shop for such simple things as a tire, or a pedal, the change to disc brakes will be of no consequence to them.


.


----------



## aclinjury

MoPho said:


> Uh, your words here:
> 
> 
> 
> I gave you a suggestion :idea:
> 
> 
> And for anyone who is going to take their bike to the shop for such simple things as a tire, or a pedal, the change to disc brakes will be of no consequence to them.
> 
> 
> .


nah your suggestion for a layman cyclist to learn how to fix/adjust disc brake ain't practical. Google my ass. I been in mtb and using hydro disc for a decade, probably longer than you on the road? and those dirt guys, who are more self-initiated gear heads than the roadie crowds, and even a lot of them mtb guys can't adjust sh8t nor have the inclination to want to try. You think roadies, being a bunch of feckle prima donnas at times, would want to spend time learning? Not gonna happen. You ever wonder why the Mtbr site has a whole subforum decidated to brakes and not on RBR site? It's not because disc brakes are easy to work on eh. Fact!


----------



## MoPho

aclinjury said:


> nah your suggestion for a layman cyclist to learn how to fix/adjust disc brake ain't practical. Google my ass. I been in mtb and using hydro disc for a decade, probably longer than you on the road? and those dirt guys, who are more self-initiated gear heads than the roadie crowds, and even a lot of them mtb guys can't adjust sh8t nor have the inclination to want to try. You think roadies, being a bunch of feckle prima donnas at times, would want to spend time learning? Not gonna happen. You ever wonder why the Mtbr site has a whole subforum decidated to brakes and not on RBR site? It's not because disc brakes are easy to work on eh. Fact!



Whatever dude, if you can't do what I described to fix the issue, you're an idiot. And changing pads on disc is easier than rim brakes. As I said, I learned how to do it in less than 5 minutes

Again, if you can't learn how to adjust disc, change the pads, or even bleed the brakes, you can't learn how to deal with rim brakes either, your point is moot!




.


----------



## Fredrico

TmB123 said:


> I'm not sure if shops do this as part of a delivery, and I guess all shops might do something different - but did your friend bed in the new discs / pads properly before going for a ride?


Heck, take a cotton rag dipped in rubbing alcohol and wipe off the discs well. Then wipe the pads off. If scored, buff em up with emory paper. Then see if they still squeak.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

aclinjury said:


> You ever wonder why the Mtbr site has a whole subforum decidated to brakes and not on RBR site? It's not because disc brakes are easy to work on eh. Fact!


it's because brakes are infinitely more important to the technique and enjoyment of riding a mountain bike than a road bike. Disc brakes are actually fairly low maintenance, depending on the model (Sram doesn't seem to have a handle on how to make them as reliable as Shimano!) . I go through a couple sets of pads on my XT brakes in a year and the maintenance is slightly less work than my ultegra road rim brakes are over the same period. However I tried using some sram oem brakes on my MTB and they were actually unsafe for me, lol ... I am sure I could still do all the road riding I do with 1974 vintage Mafac centre pull brakes even though I live in a coastal rainforest dotted with winding wet roads and steep hills.


----------



## 11spd

This thread has possibilities though I believe it is missing Kontact who keeps throwing disc brakes under the bus and we know most busses use drum brakes. Digging the convo about adjusting hydro disc brakes.
Anybody care to share their best lessons learned about bleeding hydro brakes?


----------



## 11spd

Fredrico said:


> Heck, take a cotton rag dipped in rubbing alcohol and wipe off the discs well. Then wipe the pads off. If scored, buff em up with emory paper. Then see if they still squeak.


Some are fussy in my experience. Resonant frequencies can be a bit elusive. Bike specifc. Pad clearance is important...getting this right.


----------



## Lombard

Google and You Tube are your friends. Stop bickering and start reading/watching:

Disc brake maintenance tools, tricks and tips - BikeRadar USA 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixdbx8I3i8Q 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFj0v37eSco


----------



## Rashadabd

Fredrico said:


> The lady rider tightened QR on front wheel before descending. Sounds like she forgot to close the brake caliper, so the brake blocks weren't making positive contact with the rim. That would do it.


Yep, horrible.


----------



## Rashadabd

aclinjury said:


> you haven't been around there long enough huh? Every single time a disc brake topic comes up, this happens. I'm a little surprised that Rashad (the OP) started this topic since he's been posting around here long enough to know fully well this isn't gonna be an "end all" thread!


Stop it. I have said it like five times now. My sole reason for creating this thread was to move this discussion to one place rather than have it taking over every other thread on the site. My goodness. People can tune in or tune out on the topic as they please now instead having a disc debate take over a discussion about the new Specialized such and such coming out next month, etc. Ultimately, if you don't like the discussion, stop coming into the thread man, that's really the point.


----------



## ceugene

ceugene said:


> Kontact's earlier reply describes the fear of his preferred style of bike disappearing as soon as the pros adopt disc-brakes en masse.
> 
> And when more bikes like the Emonda SLR Disc hit the UCI minimum weight, but have advantages on stages with multiple climbs? You already saw two Trek-Segafredo riders using the disc Emondas at the Colorado Classic.
> 
> It's the pros with their arbitrary weight limitations that see the LEAST benefit from staying on rim-brakes.
> 
> But yes, I'll go to pro races in the coming years and see for myself. At Trek World last week, they already hinted at the tipping point being this season. We'll see.


Told ya so. 

“Everyone who was on a Emonda rim-brake bike in 2017 will be on a disc-brake bike in 2018 in every race. That means all of the climbing guys,” Shriver told _Cyclingnews_. “Before the concerns were weight, wheel-changing and safety. Now with rounded edges, bikes at 6.8kg, it’s just about having the wheel change as fast as or faster than caliper brakes.


----------



## 11spd

ceugene said:


> Told ya so.
> 
> “Everyone who was on a Emonda rim-brake bike in 2017 will be on a disc-brake bike in 2018 in every race. That means all of the climbing guys,” Shriver told _Cyclingnews_. “Before the concerns were weight, wheel-changing and safety. Now with rounded edges, bikes at 6.8kg, it’s just about having the wheel change as fast as or faster than caliper brakes.


Makes sense. I admit surprise there hasn't been more a wholesale transition to disc brakes in the pro peloton. I really like the new Emonda SLR and in fact with the right deal would ride one.

Since disc brakes do stop better and are only fractionally heavier...aero tweaks can be made to make them within less than a handful of watts at racing speed in terms of aero deficit, there has to be more to it why pro racing hasn't embraced disc brakes more fully. I believe you touched on it. For most of us that have owned disc brake bikes, wheel changes haven't always gone seamlessly and sometimes if not most times the caliper needs to realigned to not rub the rotor. With rim brakes in the haste of a wheel change, the option of 'opening up the caliper' exists to mitigate rub...why the caliper cam is serrated..to strike a mid range when this position is called upon. This latitude doesn't exist in pro racing with disc brakes. In theory, thru axles go a long way to greater repeatability in the 'registry' of a replacement wheel with attached rotor...this combination having a lateral tolerance for example which should be pretty small.

I will say further that the design of road bike disc brakes will only improve. I believe there will reach a tipping point when pro racing embraces discs more fully. Again, I am surprised this didn't occur in 2017 but rim brakes vastly out populated pro racing compared to disc bikes. Will see in 2018.


----------



## GearDaddy

11spd said:


> Makes sense. I admit surprise there hasn't been more a wholesale transition to disc brakes in the pro peloton. I really like the new Emonda SLR and in fact with the right deal would ride one.
> 
> Since disc brakes do stop better and are only fractionally heavier...aero tweaks can be made to make them within less than a handful of watts at racing speed in terms of aero deficit, there has to be more to it why pro racing hasn't embraced disc brakes more fully. I believe you touched on it. For most of us that have owned disc brake bikes, wheel changes haven't always gone seamlessly and sometimes if not most times the caliper needs to realigned to not rub the rotor. With rim brakes in the haste of a wheel change, the option of 'opening up the caliper' exists to mitigate rub...why the caliper cam is serrated..to strike a mid range when this position is called upon. This latitude doesn't exist in pro racing with disc brakes. In theory, thru axles go a long way to greater repeatability in the 'registry' of a replacement wheel with attached rotor...this combination having a lateral tolerance for example which should be pretty small.
> 
> I will say further that the design of road bike disc brakes will only improve. I believe there will reach a tipping point when pro racing embraces discs more fully. Again, I am surprised this didn't occur in 2017 but rim brakes vastly out populated pro racing compared to disc bikes. Will see in 2018.


The article on cyclingnews.com mentions how they can actually do front wheel changes faster on the disc setup, but the rear wheel change is slower and they are still trying to figure out how to improve that.

As far as alignment/setup experience with my mtb using Avid hydros, it certainly is a bit sensitive to get dialed-in just right when you initially install the disc brakes, but I've seen no problems after that setup with switching wheels and no adjustment is necessary.

It is a fact though that if something happens in a crash such that your disc caliper alignment gets out-of-whack, or even worse your disc rotor gets bent, then you are screwed. This is an area where rim brakes have a lot more leeway, and you can even easily adjust the caliper to deal with a brake rub issue if you have to. It's probably a rare thing to experience, but it has actually happened to me in a mtb race before. Basically, I had one of the 2 bolts holding the disc caliper come loose and it was rubbing and rattling as I continued to ride. I was actually able to finish the race (another 1 hour or more), but it was definitely slowing me down.


----------



## ceugene

Outside of neutral service, I don’t think wheel changes will be a problem. The riders in the mix for points will just swap bikes as quickly as a wheel change is needed. For flats, I wouldn’t be surprised if teams started moving to tubeless tubulars with sealant in the meantime.


----------



## Lombard

11spd said:


> For most of us that have owned disc brake bikes, wheel changes haven't always gone seamlessly and sometimes if not most times the caliper needs to realigned to not rub the rotor.


The key here is to not let the brake lever get pulled while the wheel is out. Of course, this is easier said than done. The lever can be inadvertently pulled while loading and unloading in the car. This is how I found out. I also found out that I can stuff the whole bike in the car without removing the front wheel. :thumbsup:


----------



## ceugene

*Our World Tour team, Trek-Segafredo, were given the option of which braking solution to use for the 2018 racing season, and they chose disc,” Roessingh says. “Their selection was based on extensive ride testing, and their perception that discs provided a performance advantage for **them.”

*Looks like Trek didn’t actually force the riders onto disc bikes. They put it to a vote and the riders preferred the disc bikes.


----------



## aclinjury

ceugene said:


> *Our World Tour team, Trek-Segafredo, were given the option of which braking solution to use for the 2018 racing season, and they chose disc,” Roessingh says. “Their selection was based on extensive ride testing, and their perception that discs provided a performance advantage for **them.”
> 
> *Looks like Trek didn’t actually force the riders onto disc bikes. They put it to a vote and the riders preferred the disc bikes.


2018 Herald Sun Tour (stage 4). Trek-Segafredo rider spotted using Madone..... rim brake edition.
Go to @22:56 minute mark


----------



## ceugene

aclinjury said:


> 2018 Herald Sun Tour (stage 4). Trek-Segafredo rider spotted using Madone..... rim brake edition.
> Go to @22:56 minute mark


Your point? You do realize there isn’t a disc Madone yet, right?

Anyway the disc Madone is coming at the TdF.


----------



## aclinjury

ceugene said:


> Your point? You do realize there isn’t a disc Madone yet, right?
> 
> Anyway the disc Madone is coming at the TdF.


ah my bad with all they hype about disc I lost track and assume every top frame is now disc'ed. Apparently there is still non disc version. Regardless, the thing doing the talking will their legs anyway.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

The MFRs still have to made rim braked versions of their top bikes because many national cycling federations and UCI rules prohibit disc brakes. I know the Canadian cycling federation disallowed disc brakes in all sanctioned races until 2018.

Though it kind of feels like we're at that critical mass/tipping point where bans on discs will soon evaporate. At that point we might see rim brakes being harder to find in bike shop bikes for sale.


----------



## OldChipper

ceugene said:


> *Our World Tour team, Trek-Segafredo, were given the option of which braking solution to use for the 2018 racing season, and they chose disc,” Roessingh says. “Their selection was based on extensive ride testing, and their perception that discs provided a performance advantage for **them.”
> 
> *Looks like Trek didn’t actually force the riders onto disc bikes. They put it to a vote and the riders preferred the disc bikes.


Yes, I'm sure they were totally free to vote their real choice. Same reason why so many other pro teams have all voted to used disc brakes.  Trek spin control to counter the argument: "If discs are so great, why did you have to force your riders to use them." Elementary my dear Watson.


----------



## ceugene

Crying fake news?


----------



## bike-ra

aclinjury said:


> a friend just got a brand spanking new Trek Emonda Disc (with Shimano Icetech hydraulic), and took it out for its maiden voyage. Brakes were ok during the ride, then at the end of the ride, this squealing happened out of the blue. They still haven't able to get rid of this problem since day 1 of disc brake in mtb. This annoys me in mtb, and even more so on the road, take that junk elsewhere! GTFOH!...


I'd call the above an extreme oversimplification of the issue. A friend of mine in mid-summer got an Emonda w/ SRAM eTap HRD (i.e., disc brakes). He's had "0" disc brake noise issues from day one. Finally emboldened by this (I'm a bit of a luddite - my last bike had a 20yr. old frame) I bought an '18 S-Works Roubaix with the same drivetrain/brakes. I've had noise problems from day one which took a lot of trial-and-error over a month to resolve (I hope). 

The front brake was the easiest of the two to quiet down: retruing the rotor, sanding out the rotors and pads to deglaze them, and then re-bedding them...now there's "0" noise. 

The rear brake took a bit longer: I wasn't thinking too clearly while repeatedly re-centering them, then tried bleeding them, then sanding out the rotors/pad, and then doing another round of re-bedding. Instead I probably could've resolved the noise quickly by 1st trying Jagwire's cheaper/softer "organic" brake pads. These instantly got rid of 99% of the noise (the Jagwire's seem to have no brass "strands" in them, while the SRAM "organic" pads have a considerable amount of this brass which I'd say was making my rear rotor sing nearly constantly). Instead I fell into the "OEM pads will work best" B.S. that all brake manufacturers spout, though, I have to say this has been mostly true in recent years (i.e., for my 1st & 2nd gen MTB discs 10yrs.+ ago we were always experimenting with different pads to find the ones with the best stopping power vs. noise combo, but since then there's been less-and-less non-OEM choices as the brake manufacturers have done a better job with their pads...but not completely).

So do I think the above makes road disc a stupid idea? For the most part I'd say "NO" since you can have similar issues with certain rim brake rim/pad combos (which might lead you to deglaze the pads), then there's some similar centering & pad adjustment hassles, and there's other issues with using rim brakes vs. disc brakes.

So here's what I think are the bigger picture +'s & -'s of disc brakes on road bikes (vs. rim brakes):

ADVANTAGES:
1) Much better modulation and stopping power, and more consistent regardless of dry vs. wet.
2) No more worries about keeping your rims perfectly true.
3) No more braking degradation (and the fwap-fwap sound) from a slightly dinged rim brake track.
4) Re-centering disc brake pads is much easier than re-adjusting the height, tilt & toe-in of rim brake pads, which, along with the centering of rim brake calipers, is an iterative process.
5) Stepping up to carbon rims does not have the added unknown of how well (poorly?) the rim-brake track will perform.
6) Allows for much wider tires (if your frame allows for 32mm+ tires then a 2nd set of wheels will give your bike dual road & gravel capabilities).
7) In theory carbon disc brake rims should weigh a bit less than their rim brake equivalents (i.e., since the brake track doesn't have to be so thick). I've seen this to be true for some of the latest crop of carbon road rims.
8) Bye-bye to the disadvantages of QR's (consistent centering of the front wheel has sometimes been an issue for me, and loosening/slipping rear wheels is definitely a problem).

DISADVANTAGES
1) Much heavier (even though they're getting closer). Near as I can tell my SRAM HRD's added ~1lb. to eTap (i.e., I could've had a sub-15# bike vs. a sub-16# one). The slightly lighter weight of some disc brake rims barely helps with this.
2) Noise some of the time is a given with disc brakes. To me road biking is a more "zen" experience (which can be easily disrupted by disc brake squealing...not to mention annoying your riding partner's or getting the attention of off-leash dogs) vs. the adrenaline-pumping of MTB'ing where brake noise is barely a distraction. More work must be done to get road disc quieter than MTB disc brakes (saying that "road disc brakes just make noise so live with it"--which is what the LBS where I bought my bike said in response to my noise issue--is not acceptable).
3) More expensive vs. rim brakes
4) Regular bleeding is probably a good idea even though it is a hassle (and a big added hassle vs. dealing w/ rim brakes).
5) Regular piston cycling is also probably a good idea (to assure that both pistons have full travel & work equally smoothly). This is yet another hassle that is not part of dealing with rim brakes.
6) Re-truing rotors can be also be a real hassle (even if you have a disc brake truing gauge on your wheel truing stand). Unlike the fairly repeatable process involved in wheel truing, disc rotor truing always has me guessing about how much force to apply to a rotor's high/low spot to get it back to true.

I think that sums it up? 

For me going eTap/Disc was an expensive experiment which has the added problem that you can't readily (if at all...not quite sure of this even if the same brake fluid type is involved) change out the brake calipers to some other brand if they are a problem. Currently I'm looking at the rim vs. disc brake choice as a toss up, but I need more time to deliberate on this...but for now the manufacturers definitely need to find ways to reduce the potential for noise.


----------



## factory feel

This is why we can't have nice things....


----------



## OldChipper

bike-ra said:


> ADVANTAGES:
> 1) Much better modulation and stopping power, and more consistent regardless of dry vs. wet.
> 2) No more worries about keeping your rims perfectly true.
> 3) No more braking degradation (and the fwap-fwap sound) from a slightly dinged rim brake track.
> 4) Re-centering disc brake pads is much easier than re-adjusting the tilt & toe-in of rim brake pads along with centering of rim brake calipers.
> 4) Stepping up to carbon rims does not have the added unknown of how well the rim brake track will perform.
> 5) Allows for much wider tires (if your frame allows for 32mm+ tires then a 2nd set of wheels will give your bike dual road & gravel capabilities).
> 6) In theory carbon disc brake rims should weigh less than their rim brakes equivalents (i.e., since the brake track doesn't have to be so thick). I've seen this to be true for some of the latest crop of carbon road rims.
> 7) Bye-bye to the disadvantages of QR's (consistent centering of the front wheel has sometimes been an issue for me, and loosening/slipping rear wheels is definitely a problem).


1) Still haven't heard anyone convincingly explain the advantage of modulation on the road. My rim brakes modulate just fine. The question isn't if discs brake better, but if rim brakes work well *enough* - which they do. The last week, I've been doing wet descents in the Dolomites (which are stooopid steep and twisty if you haven't been) and my carbon rim brakes work just fine thank you very much AND I didn't have to jump though all sorts of hoops to pack my bike into a small travel case. 

2) I true my rims literally about once a year, maybe. Buy quality wheels and truing issues are a thing of the past

3) I have NEVER dinged a brake track riding on the road

4) For a cross or gravel bike this is legit and you probably won't hear the squealing/ting-ting-tinging anyway. For road bikes, non-issue.

5) Nice theory, but most of the weight in a carbon rim is for strength, not for the brake track. 

6) Excuse me... disadvantages of QRs???? WTH??? Do you not know how to use them? You do know what the "Q" stands for, right? Vs. screwing in a thru-axle???? Not only have I never had ANY problem with any QR ever, no one I know ever has either. 

Sooooo... in summary, your advantages of discs are mostly BS. Your DISadvantages however are right on point. 

Game, set, and match to rim brakes.


----------



## bike-ra

OldChipper said:


> 1) Still haven't heard anyone convincingly explain the advantage of modulation on the road. My rim brakes modulate just fine. The question isn't if discs brake better, but if rim brakes work well *enough* - which they do. The last week, I've been doing wet descents in the Dolomites (which are stooopid steep and twisty if you haven't been) and my carbon rim brakes work just fine thank you very much AND I didn't have to jump though all sorts of hoops to pack my bike into a small travel case.
> 
> 2) I true my rims literally about once a year, maybe. Buy quality wheels and truing issues are a thing of the past
> 
> 3) I have NEVER dinged a brake track riding on the road
> 
> 4) For a cross or gravel bike this is legit and you probably won't hear the squealing/ting-ting-tinging anyway. For road bikes, non-issue.
> 
> 5) Nice theory, but most of the weight in a carbon rim is for strength, not for the brake track.
> 
> 6) Excuse me... disadvantages of QRs???? WTH??? Do you not know how to use them? You do know what the "Q" stands for, right? Vs. screwing in a thru-axle???? Not only have I never had ANY problem with any QR ever, no one I know ever has either.
> 
> Sooooo... in summary, your advantages of discs are mostly BS. Your DISadvantages however are right on point.
> 
> Game, set, and match to rim brakes.


I have a right to an opinion that is based on my experiences (I never said my analysis was "fact"). And it's good that other people have a different opinion, but to call my opinion "BS" is exactly the kind of language that doesn't engender a useful discussion of this subject. Because of this I don't see any benefit in trying to better explain the basis of some of my opinions (which I'd otherwise see as a useful part of what this forum is for).


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## bike-ra

factory feel said:


> This is why we can't have nice things....


No sh**. Higher Price & Technology = Greater Expectations = More Disappointment & Frustration.


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## 11spd

ceugene said:


> *Our World Tour team, Trek-Segafredo, were given the option of which braking solution to use for the 2018 racing season, and they chose disc,” Roessingh says. “Their selection was based on extensive ride testing, and their perception that discs provided a performance advantage for **them.”
> 
> *Looks like Trek didn’t actually force the riders onto disc bikes. They put it to a vote and the riders preferred the disc bikes.


Why not? Pro riders don't have to maintain them or tune out disc rub.


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## GlobalGuy

For my needs and personal preferences, I much prefer rim to disc brakes. It's not a question of which works better either. I buy and ride only Trek bikes. Trek is outstanding but sure it is most definitely not the only maker of outstanding bikes. But a combination of factors makes buying and fixing or tuning or upgrading more convenient for me with Trek. 

The above said, it really annoys me that trek is in the process, with a few exceptions, making disc the only choice for most of their Domane and Emonda lines and to a lesser degree Madone. 

I know a couple of dealers pretty well and they say Trek is committed to pushing disc and telling employees to push discs to perspective customers.


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## 11spd

bike-ra said:


> No sh**. Higher Price & Technology = Greater Expectations = More Disappointment & Frustration.


Not necessarily.

Will give you my opinion. What you write I have experienced with disc brakes. I have had no issues with rim. In my experience, disc brakes are a PITA. Do I like the stopping power of disc? Absolutely.

So will share my view. The ONLY reason I would buy a disc brake road bike is if I lived in hilly region or in the mountains period. Otherwise, I will always be on a rim brake bike.

Its pretty simple. Those that say that disc brakes are less maintenance to tune out rub and squeal, are in my opinion wrong. I have been building bikes for 4 decades.
So to me, that is the lay of the land. Only reason to buy a disc brake bike and put up with the lottery or rubbing and squealing pads is if you live in terrain where this hassle needs to be tolerated for best braking performance. I don't run 4 piston Brembo's on my passenger car either.


----------



## bike-ra

GlobalGuy said:


> For my needs and personal preferences, I much prefer rim to disc brakes. It's not a question of which works better either. I buy and ride only Trek bikes. Trek is outstanding but sure it is most definitely not the only maker of outstanding bikes. But a combination of factors makes buying and fixing or tuning or upgrading more convenient for me with Trek.
> 
> The above said, it really annoys me that trek is in the process of making with few exceptions disc is the only choice for most of their Domane and Emonda lines and to a lesser degree Madone. I know a couple of dealers pretty well and they say that even in sales Trek telling employees to push discs.


All things being equal I'd say that rim brakes are still a good choice for road bikes, especially for those looking for the most bike (and lowest weight) for their money. The one thing that tipped the scales toward discs for me was the desire to go with higher profile carbon wheels but without having to live with the marginal braking I experienced with carbon rim-brake wheels...oh and the fact that you can't buy a Roubaix without disc brakes (the Roubaix beat out hands-down all of the 8 other bikes I demo'd...even the Domane - sorry to the gazillions of Domane lovers and to GlobalGuy). True I coulda bought the Roubaix rim brake frameset but building up a bike from a frameset wasn't an option for reasons not worth going into. Which leads to....

I absolutely believe that the bike manufacturers are trying to lock new buyers in to disc-brake bikes for various reasons other than it being "better" (i.e., sell more new bikes since they're the latest and greatest, sell more parts since so much is different...). Not that bike manufacturers are the only businesses using this approach!

*What I really don't get is why are the pro's are bothering with disc brakes.* They want the lightest possible bikes, the best aerodynamics, quick wheel changes, and word is that they don't brake anyway!


----------



## alexdi

OldChipper said:


> 1) Still haven't heard anyone convincingly explain the advantage of modulation on the road. My rim brakes modulate just fine.


Consistency is a problem. I ride with more confidence when I know what I'm getting when I pull the lever. With rim brakes, I don't. Not if it rains or I roll through an oily puddle. I get a lot, or nothing, or a grabby mix. Carbon rims are (at least) one level worse across the board, with the added mental burden of heat management. 

We had this argument 20 years ago with mountain bikes. V-brakes were powerful, light, easy to maintain, and we dropped them like a hot potato. The same on road bikes may be good enough for you, but there's no question where the market is going.


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## vic bastige

Having one of my bikes with Dura-Ace rim brakes and the other with SRAM disc, I'll give you the biggest reason for disc over rim. I like them better. Neither of my bikes have needed any kind of significant brake work either.

These threads are hysterical. Same people putting forth their reasons on why one is better than the other, yet no-one is ever convinced to change their opinion. So stupid. Both stop a bike just fine; choices are good. For me, I prefer disc but just had a sublime ride today on my Bianchi with the DA rims on my 303s.


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## bike-ra

vic bastige said:


> ...I'll give you the biggest reason for disc over rim. I like them better....
> 
> These threads are hysterical. Same people putting forth their reasons on why one is better than the other, yet no-one is ever convinced to change their opinion. So stupid. Both stop a bike just fine; choices are good. For me, I prefer disc but just had a sublime ride today on my Bianchi with the DA rims on my 303s.


There isn't a better reason to like one vs. the other than "I like them". I love it! 

My long post above was supposed to be informative about the noise issues I had to overcome (along with a warning about this to the bike/component manufacturers). I was also hoping that the simple solutions I came across (which perhaps are nothing new) might be of help to some others. I had never experienced anything worse than some intermittent noise with the 4+ sets of MTB disc brakes I've used over the years. So the nearly constant fwap-fwapping, screeching & high-pitched squealing of this pricey new Roubaix really kind of freaked me out. 

However, all that seems to have been ignored in lieu of the pro/con list I tacked onto the end of my post. During the month or so that I spent freaking out over the stupid noise issues this list helped me remember the answer to the question "why did I choose to buy a disc-brake equipped road bike in the first place?"...I just didn't know that the vultures were circling overhead


----------



## vic bastige

bike-ra said:


> There isn't a better reason to like one vs. the other than "I like them". I love it!
> 
> My long post above was supposed to be informative about the noise issues I had to overcome (along with a warning about this to the bike/component manufacturers). I was also hoping that the simple solutions I came across (which perhaps are nothing new) might be of help to some others. I had never experienced anything worse than some intermittent noise with the 4+ sets of MTB disc brakes I've used over the years. So the nearly constant fwap-fwapping, screeching & high-pitched squealing of this pricey new Roubaix really kind of freaked me out.
> 
> However, all that seems to have been ignored in lieu of the pro/con list I tacked onto the end of my post. During the month or so that I spent freaking out over the stupid noise issues this list helped me remember the answer to the question "why did I choose to buy a disc-brake equipped road bike in the first place?"...I just didn't know that the vultures were circling overhead


Ok, I'll pivot then. My brakes on my Etap Aeroad *almost* never make noise. In fact, the front never does, the rear is the one that had done it. Now, after every ride i clean the rotor with a little eyeglass lens cleaner. The ones you can get in bulk at costco and come in a little foil paacket. Since I have been doing that, I have gone from almost never any noise to only rides where I get caught in a downpour...but then my rim brake friends have some squeal in those conditions too.

PS- if this is a repeat of some sort, my bad. NO WAY I had the time to read through all the long posts.


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## bike-ra

vic bastige said:


> Ok, I'll pivot then. My brakes on my Etap Aeroad *almost* never make noise. In fact, the front never does, the rear is the one that had done it. Now, after every ride i clean the rotor with a little eyeglass lens cleaner. The ones you can get in bulk at costco and come in a little foil paacket. Since I have been doing that, I have gone from almost never any noise to only rides where I get caught in a downpour...but then my rim brake friends have some squeal in those conditions too.


I know others that do that ritual too and have found it useful. For me the noise (especially in the rear) was nearly constant whenever the brake was used which probably put my situation in a different realm (one which I had never found myself in with discs). I tried scotchbrite and then alcohol on the rear and that did quiet it down for, uh, maybe a mile. Then I tried sanding out the rotors/pads, re-bedding and cleaning again which extended the quiet to an astounding 5mi. Same with re-centering to various different just off-center positions. So clearly something beyond proper setup & bedding in was needed. 

The softer Jagwire "Sport Organic" pads helped get me to essentially no noise. The only thing I can conclude from this is that the SRAM OEM pads are probably too aggressive for a 125lb person (they're filled with a boatload of brass shavings, while the Jagwire seems totally organic). I also was thinking that there was a frame resonance involved too since the front was nowhere near as bad so I saw no reason to replace the pads...until I rode 70mi. today and the front's robotic turkey gobbling and high-pitched squealing returned during about 50% of my braking. So much for the frame resonance theory. So I'm gonna give it another ride (and clean the rotor first) before I also install the Jagwire's in the front. Stand by (with bated breath)?


----------



## SwiftSolo

OldChipper said:


> 1) Still haven't heard anyone convincingly explain the advantage of modulation on the road. My rim brakes modulate just fine. The question isn't if discs brake better, but if rim brakes work well *enough* - which they do. The last week, I've been doing wet descents in the Dolomites (which are stooopid steep and twisty if you haven't been) and my carbon rim brakes work just fine thank you very much AND I didn't have to jump though all sorts of hoops to pack my bike into a small travel case.
> 
> 2) I true my rims literally about once a year, maybe. Buy quality wheels and truing issues are a thing of the past
> 
> 3) I have NEVER dinged a brake track riding on the road
> 
> 4) For a cross or gravel bike this is legit and you probably won't hear the squealing/ting-ting-tinging anyway. For road bikes, non-issue.
> 
> 5) Nice theory, but most of the weight in a carbon rim is for strength, not for the brake track.
> 
> 6) Excuse me... disadvantages of QRs???? WTH??? Do you not know how to use them? You do know what the "Q" stands for, right? Vs. screwing in a thru-axle???? Not only have I never had ANY problem with any QR ever, no one I know ever has either.
> 
> Sooooo... in summary, your advantages of discs are mostly BS. Your DISadvantages however are right on point.
> 
> Game, set, and match to rim brakes.


I hope you find my post will help to alleviate your concerns about "new fangled" stuff.

Nobody is suggesting that you give up your 31 Ford for a car with unnecessary hydraulic brakes. We know that your mechanical brakes and steering work just fine and I will fight to protect your right to ride and drive antiquated crap.

Know that I'm looking out for you (for several reasons).


----------



## factory feel

My disc brakes never squeal unless I use them.


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## 11spd

factory feel said:


> My disc brakes never squeal unless I use them.


Count yourself among the fortunate. Some squeal no matter what and of course many men like it that way.


----------



## vic bastige

bike-ra said:


> I know others that do that ritual too and have found it useful. For me the noise (especially in the rear) was nearly constant whenever the brake was used which probably put my situation in a different realm (one which I had never found myself in with discs). I tried scotchbrite and then alcohol on the rear and that did quiet it down for, uh, maybe a mile. Then I tried sanding out the rotors/pads, re-bedding and cleaning again which extended the quiet to an astounding 5mi. Same with re-centering to various different just off-center positions. So clearly something beyond proper setup & bedding in was needed.
> 
> The softer Jagwire "Sport Organic" pads helped get me to essentially no noise. The only thing I can conclude from this is that the SRAM OEM pads are probably too aggressive for a 125lb person (they're filled with a boatload of brass shavings, while the Jagwire seems totally organic). I also was thinking that there was a frame resonance involved too since the front was nowhere near as bad so I saw no reason to replace the pads...until I rode 70mi. today and the front's robotic turkey gobbling and high-pitched squealing returned during about 50% of my braking. So much for the frame resonance theory. So I'm gonna give it another ride (and clean the rotor first) before I also install the Jagwire's in the front. Stand by (with bated breath)?


Good to know. While as I mentioned I have no problems to speak of now, come time to re-pad I'll probably use the jag wire in the back as an abundance of caution. Obviously, the back doesn't contribute as much to stopping anyway.


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## SPlKE

Road bike Campy Chorus rim brake guy here. 

If my brakes ever made a noise, it was within the first mile of riding on new pads or completely new brakes... and tuned out to silence forever with a 4mm allen wrench.

The idea of brakes on my road bike making any noise whatsoever harshes my mellow. 

My Campy Chorus road brakes are silent at all times, and just barely audible when applied with any force, from routine light-slowdown... to emergency-jammed-on-fullstop.


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## 11spd

SPlKE said:


> Road bike Campy Chorus rim brake guy here.
> 
> If my brakes ever made a noise, it was within the first mile of riding on new pads or completely new brakes... and tuned out to silence forever with a 4mm allen wrench.
> 
> The idea of brakes on my road bike making any noise whatsoever harshes my mellow.
> 
> My Campy Chorus road brakes are silent at all times, and just barely audible when applied with any force, from routine light-slowdown... to emergency-jammed-on-fullstop.


That's right Spike. It is written in the scripture. Tullio has decreed it thus. There will be no loudness associated with traditional Campagnolo brakes. Anything of the sort would be tantamount to sacrilege if not sock ray bleu. Two things Tullio would never tolerate. Yappy dogs and noisy brakes. The rest is history.


----------



## Fredrico

11spd said:


> That's right Spike. It is written in the scripture. Tullio has decreed it thus. There will be no loudness associated with traditional Campagnolo brakes. Anything of the sort would be tantamount to sacrilege if not sock ray bleu. Two things Tullio would never tolerate. Yappy dogs and noisy brakes. The rest is history.


Seriously, I read accounts of Campy engineers thinking at great length on such things as noise/vibrations, smooth performance while still providing a great feedback loop, forever enhancing the pleasure of riding on two wheels.

I'm still riding old Super Record single pivot calipers made in '80. The calipers brake like crap, so the engineers stiffened up the levers, so rider can exert necessary tension to stop the bike. . The brakes don't fade, but require athletic pressure on the steep grades. The idea: not to destroy the feedback loop between bike and rider. Campy shifters reassuringly click, for the same reason. Their bearings are legendary, another place that frequently weakens the feedback loop.

It's SO nice to pop the wheels in on true quick release dropouts, and adjust the calipers in seconds with the trusty 4 mm allen wrench, which, pads not being restricted to the insanely tight clearances of discs, seldom needs to be done. Never had to replace a brake cable, either. Campy cables are industrial strength and they'll never need bleeding. :thumbsup:


----------



## bike-ra

bike-ra said:


> [vic bastille:] I know others that do that ritual too [cleaning the rotors after each ride] and have found it useful. For me the noise (especially in the rear) was nearly constant whenever the brake was used which probably put my situation in a different realm (one which I had never found myself in with discs). I tried scotchbrite and then alcohol on the rear and that did quiet it down for, uh, maybe a mile. Then I tried sanding out the rotors/pads, re-bedding and cleaning again which extended the quiet to an astounding 5mi. Same with re-centering to various different just off-center positions. So clearly something beyond proper setup & bedding in was needed.
> 
> The softer Jagwire "Sport Organic" pads helped get me to essentially no noise. The only thing I can conclude from this is that the SRAM OEM pads are probably too aggressive for a 125lb person (they're filled with a boatload of brass shavings, while the Jagwire seems totally organic). I also was thinking that there was a frame resonance involved too since the front was nowhere near as bad so I saw no reason to replace the pads...until I rode 70mi. today and the front's robotic turkey gobbling and high-pitched squealing returned during about 50% of my braking. So much for the frame resonance theory. So I'm gonna give it another ride (and clean the rotor first) before I also install the Jagwire's in the front. Stand by (with bated breath)?


Well the good news is that cleaning the front rotor prior to today's ride (only 30mi. but w/ 4,000' climbing so lot's of braking) quieted the front brake down to what it was after I sanded it out and re-bedded it a week ago (99% quiet). The bad news is that this same treatment didn't help in the rear when I was still using the SRAM HRD OEM pads. So I continue to be baffled by the unpredictable and inexplicable noise that these new SRAM HRD disc brakes make (vs. any other disc brakes I've ever owned). Of course the last time I got the front brake to be quiet it lasted maybe 3-4 rides until the gobble-gobble returned like a demonic turkey in a John Carpenter movie...so stand by again (with bated breath)!


----------



## SwiftSolo

Fredrico said:


> Seriously, I read accounts of Campy engineers thinking at great length on such things as noise/vibrations, smooth performance while still providing a great feedback loop, forever enhancing the pleasure of riding on two wheels.
> 
> I'm still riding old Super Record single pivot calipers made in '80. The calipers brake like crap, so the engineers stiffened up the levers, so rider can exert necessary tension to stop the bike. . The brakes don't fade, but require athletic pressure on the steep grades. The idea: not to destroy the feedback loop between bike and rider. Campy shifters reassuringly click, for the same reason. Their bearings are legendary, another place that frequently weakens the feedback loop.
> 
> It's SO nice to pop the wheels in on true quick release dropouts, and adjust the calipers in seconds with the trusty 4 mm allen wrench, which, pads not being restricted to the insanely tight clearances of discs, seldom needs to be done. Never had to replace a brake cable, either. Campy cables are industrial strength and they'll never need bleeding. :thumbsup:


Here you go regurgitating the "bleeding" drivel again. 

I hate to destroy this fantasy but I was on campy record for years and replaced friction inducing cables (both shifting and brake) at least every 5000 miles. Removing and rewrapping new bar tape in addition to cables and housings is far more time consuming. 

My current bike is finishing its' fouth season and I've yet to bleed the shimano brakes or change any components on the electronic shifting. I have changed the brake pads several times and the rotors twice. Disc brake pads are much faster and easier to change than rim brake pads. They require no adjustment and only one screw each for front and back.

I think you'd do better with the dismemberment and death argument that was made popular by that "pro" rider whose right calf was cut by his disc brake. Racing side-saddle and/or backwards with sharp disc rotors is no longer recommended-- a worthwhile lesson from his tragedy.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> Here you go regurgitating the "bleeding" drivel again.
> 
> I hate to destroy this fantasy but I was on campy record for years and replaced friction inducing cables (both shifting and brake) at least every 5000 miles. Removing and rewrapping new bar tape in addition to cables and housings is far more time consuming.
> 
> My current bike is finishing its' fouth season and I've yet to bleed the shimano brakes or change any components on the electronic shifting. I have changed the brake pads several times and the rotors twice. Disc brake pads are much faster and easier to change than rim brake pads. They require no adjustment and only one screw each for front and back.
> 
> I think you'd do better with the dismemberment and death argument that was made popular by that "pro" rider whose right calf was cut by his disc brake. Racing side-saddle and/or backwards with sharp disc rotors is no longer recommended-- a worthwhile lesson from his tragedy.


Not really. Worlds are divided on rim versus disc and won't change anytime soon. Most and certainly not you find rim brakes less hassle to maintain compared to disc. I have owned disc brake bikes and me too. Rim are 'much' easier. This has been discussed to death and there are clearly some people like yourself that find disc bike ownership almost maintenance free. By contrast some have nothing but issues. I could quiet my disc brake bikes but way more PITA than I ever had with rim brakes.

So that's the dynamic and won't change any time soon.

Now you better to get to changing out your hydraulic fluid. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and you don't want cavitation when descending your favorite big hill.

Here you go. This guy is an expert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FArL-T4Oyaw&t=216s


----------



## Fredrico

SwiftSolo said:


> Here you go regurgitating the "bleeding" drivel again.
> 
> I hate to destroy this fantasy but I was on campy record for years and replaced friction inducing cables (both shifting and brake) at least every 5000 miles. Removing and rewrapping new bar tape in addition to cables and housings is far more time consuming.
> 
> My current bike is finishing its' fouth season and I've yet to bleed the shimano brakes or change any components on the electronic shifting. I have changed the brake pads several times and the rotors twice. Disc brake pads are much faster and easier to change than rim brake pads. They require no adjustment and only one screw each for front and back.
> 
> I think you'd do better with the dismemberment and death argument that was made popular by that "pro" rider whose right calf was cut by his disc brake. Racing side-saddle and/or backwards with sharp disc rotors is no longer recommended-- a worthwhile lesson from his tragedy.


Good testimony to the security of hydraulic calipers. It seems engineers have designed it well. 

Still, on a bicycle, I like to have maintenance control with a 4 mm allen wrench, not a visit to the LBS when a problem arises. Lots of riders are much more anal about replacing cables and housing regularly, but this is more necessary on 9,10,11 speed shifters on clicks than old fashioned 6 speed friction shifters. The only 6 speed housing is the loop going into the rear derailleur. Otherwise, the cables are fully exposed and work great! Never had any problems with sticking brake cables or frayed from wear in the housing.

I've also [email protected] with countless disc brakes when assembling bikes for the shop, and am astounded there's no precise way to center the pads. It was always time consuming trial and error. No comparison to rim brakes. The Campy and Dura Ace pads have alloy holders that keep them in adjustment when you slide out the worn pads and slide in the new ones, in considerably less time than it took me to change disc pads, mainly because of the centering problems.

The more I can fix on the bike, the more I like it. Its a manual instrument, philosophically consistent with wrenching. But ok, hydraulics and wireless electronics are certainly more reliable than cables. I'll buy that. Hydraulics eliminate friction. No cable to replace. But I can't adjust them with a 4 mm allen wrench, so for me, the trade off is unacceptable.  

Solid state electronics could theoretically last forever. Nothing to wear out at such low power levels. At one time, vacuum tube filaments would glow for a time and blow out, resistors overheat and separate, mechanical switch contacts and volume controls would corrode and wear out. All those are eliminated in solid state. 

And really, consumers like to relate to the latest digital tech. They link it to their i phones and Strava, GPS, never get lost, and have all the data at their fingertips. Its truly wondrous. If I grew up with computers I'd sure have it, because I "feel at home" with it. 

But I've always considered the act of riding a truly mechanical experience, me the engine compelling two wheels forward by burning calories and staying fit, like my mammal ancestors, doing what the species has evolved from its hunter-gatherer past. 

Electronics are smooth and effortless, but I prefer a more detailed feedback loop, that which Italian frame builders and Campy engineers have sought to perfect, while inscrutable Shimano engineers have sought to eliminate, Lexus vs Ferrari. Because a bike is a musical instrument as well as a vehicle to eat up the miles, and each rider chooses what he thinks satisfies his own tastes and style.


----------



## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> Now you better to get to changing out your hydraulic fluid. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and you don't want cavitation when descending your favorite big hill.


DOT brake fluid is hygroscopic, but Shimano disc brakes use mineral oil which is hydrophobic. 

Although the underlying physics of cavitation and boiling are essentially the same, boiling is the better description of what happens in a brake line as it is caused by localized heating. Cavitation would be caused by a localized drop in pressure.


----------



## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> DOT brake fluid is hygroscopic, but Shimano disc brakes use mineral oil which is hydrophobic.
> 
> Although the underlying physics of cavitation and boiling are essentially the same, boiling is the better description of what happens in a brake line as it is caused by localized heating. Cavitation would be caused by a localized drop in pressure.


Cavitation connotes fluid phase change promoting compressibility if you want to put a finer point on it. And of course fluid by definition is incompressible and what reliable braking relies upon and without it, pad pressure diminishes and braking lost.

Other reason to change dirty fluid is of course this contamination degrades metal parts comprising the brake system, notably pistons which can cause sticky and inequivalent piston pressure.


----------



## bike-ra

I really don't know what all the controversy is about the disc vs. rim brake choice. They both have their known advantages and disadvantages that most would not disagree with in principle. Most would also agree that it is how each person weighs the advantages & disadvantages that leads that person to decide which is "better". That being said I thought I'd finally shrug off the "BS" reply to my earlier list of disc advantages and explain some of the personal reasons I listed these.



bike-ra said:


> ADVANTAGES:...
> 1) Much better modulation and stopping power, and more consistent regardless of dry vs. wet.
> 2) No more worries about keeping your rims perfectly true.
> 3) No more braking degradation (and the fwap-fwap sound) from a slightly dinged rim brake track.
> 4) Re-centering disc brake pads is much easier than re-adjusting the height, tilt & toe-in of rim brake pads, which, along with the centering of rim brake calipers, is an iterative process.
> 5) Stepping up to carbon rims does not have the added unknown of how well (poorly?) the rim-brake track will perform.
> 6) Allows for much wider tires (if your frame allows for 32mm+ tires then a 2nd set of wheels will give your bike dual road & gravel capabilities).
> 7) In theory carbon disc brake rims should weigh a bit less than their rim brake equivalents (i.e., since the brake track doesn't have to be so thick). I've seen this to be true for some of the latest crop of carbon road rims.
> 8) Bye-bye to the disadvantages of QR's (consistent centering of the front wheel has sometimes been an issue for me, and loosening/slipping rear wheels is definitely a problem)....


2) I've been using "quality" wheels for over 20yrs. (i.e., custom built, factory built and hand built by me...most recently ~$1k per set using alloy rims). The one constant across all these wheels has been the need to re-true the rear wheel at least 2-3x/yr. so that the wobble-induced brake degradation is kept to a minimum. This is not an issue for disc brakes, though of course you can't let the disc brake wheels go to hell either so regular re-tensioning/truing (yearly for me unless the spokes feel loose) is still needed but no longer just for the purpose of smoothing out the brake track. 

3) I've dinged alloy rims several times over the years (potholes I guess?) a couple of which were during multiple week tours on which a spare wheel was not available. So I had to live with the thump-thumping & compromised braking for what would otherwise be a great biking experience. Maybe I'm the only one in the world that has dented a rim before but, regardless, this is my reality that I thought I would try to eliminate with disc brakes (though regardless of this I probably need to learn better to avoid the potholes).

6) I can't see how the ability to use wider tires isn't seen as an advantage by all. Near as I can tell the best (and perhaps only?) reason why discs have been getting some use by the pro's is for this specific reason.

8) I learned the hard way the importance of making sure your rear wheel's QR is always tight (i.e., by checking it several times a year which is what I've been doing since learning this "lesson"). Years ago I was thrown over the handlebars by a rear wheel that slipped forward and locked up all because I didn't know I had to pay attention to this. I've also had a couple of fork/hub combo's that have made repeatable centering of the wheel a bit tricky. Both of these issues vanish with the use of thru axles. 

Then there are the disadvantages which don't seem to be as much in dispute here. And, even though I'm living proof of the noise disadvantage that has consumed a lot of my bike maintenance time in the last month, I probably still woulda went with discs on my new bike...I think....


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## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> Not really. Worlds are divided on rim versus disc and won't change anytime soon. Most and certainly not you find rim brakes less hassle to maintain compared to disc. I have owned disc brake bikes and me too. Rim are 'much' easier. This has been discussed to death and there are clearly some people like yourself that find disc bike ownership almost maintenance free. By contrast some have nothing but issues. I could quiet my disc brake bikes but way more PITA than I ever had with rim brakes.
> 
> So that's the dynamic and won't change any time soon.
> 
> Now you better to get to changing out your hydraulic fluid. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and you don't want cavitation when descending your favorite big hill.
> 
> Here you go. This guy is an expert:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FArL-T4Oyaw&t=216s


Cute video for my grandchildren when they get their new bikes. 

I guess I have to specify Shimano hydraulic disc brakes every time we have this conversation?

I have two questions that are complicated but I'm convinced, with time to think about it, you can come up with the answers. 

Here goes: First question. Is it easier to remove bar tape, remove old cables and housings, cut new cable housings, install new housings and cable, adjust new cables, cut off and install ends on new cables, repalce the bar tape, and clean up the mess, or, do none of the above?

Second question. Is it easier to pull out four brake pads, insert four new brakes pads, loosen four pad arms, adjust the toe in and vertical position of four pads, retighten four pads, and re-adjust relative cable length, or, remove two screws, pull out two sets of pads with one hand, insert two new sets with the same hand, repalce two screws? If you have any doubt, perhaps a replacment race is in order.

Don't know why folks are having so much trouble with squeeling brakes. I've found that clean pads and discs gets rid of it for 500 miles or so. My carbon rims with eebrake calipers did the same thing on long twisting descents when its was raining. Since it was rare, it wasn't that big a deal and it encouraged anyone who was holding you up to surrender.

I haven't done it yet, but I'm pretty sure that after the first time, I'll be able to replace/bleed the fluid in far less time then you can accomplish Item one above and that I only need to do it 1/3 as often.


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## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> Cavitation connotes fluid phase change promoting compressibility if you want to put a finer point on it.


That's an incomplete picture. Cavitation occurs when the localized pressure of a fluid drops below the vapor pressure of the fluid, usually due to high fluid velocity. It is _extremely_ unlikely to occur in the brake lines of a bicycle, so there's no point discussing it.


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## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> That's an incomplete picture. Cavitation occurs when the localized pressure of a fluid drops below the vapor pressure of the fluid, usually due to high fluid velocity. It is _extremely_ unlikely to occur in the brake lines of a bicycle, so there's no point discussing it.


I believe what you write is misleading sorry. It is NOT due to high fluid velocity. Cavitation aka braking loss due to fluid compressibility is due to moisture aka water getting into the braking system through seals in hoses and in aggregate, boiling point is lowered. When the lowered boiling point of contaminated fluid is exceeded...careful studies are performed on conductive heat transfer of disc brake calipers....heat transfer between pistons/calipers as heat sinks and rotors through pads, the contaminated fluid boils and cavitation occurs. That is the dynamic at play. Fluid velocities are relatively low in braking systems.
So you are wrong in your assertion as it pertains to automobiles, motorcycles and bicycles.

​


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## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> I believe what you write is misleading sorry. It is NOT due to high fluid velocity. Cavitation aka braking loss due to compressibility is due to moisture aka water getting into the braking system through seals in hoses and in aggregate, boiling point is lowered. When the lowered boiling point of contaminated fluid is exceeded...careful studies are performed on conductive heat transfer of disc brake calipers....heat transfer between pistons/calipers as heat sinks and rotors through pads, the contaminated fluid boils and cavitation occurs. That is the dynamic at play. Fluid velocities are relatively low in braking systems.
> So you are wrong in your assertion as it pertains to automobiles, motorcycles and bicycles.


You're describing simple boiling, due to localized heating. The presence of water simply lowers the boiling point. End of story.

Again, cavitation is due to the localized fluid pressure dropping below the vapor pressure of the fluid. It is extremely unlikely to occur in brake lines.


----------



## factory feel

Am I gonna have to breakout my Wikipedia and drop some knowledge?


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## aclinjury

bike-ra said:


> 3) I've dinged alloy rims several times over the years (potholes I guess?) a couple of which were during multiple week tours on which a spare wheel was not available. So I had to live with the thump-thumping & compromised braking for what would otherwise be a great biking experience. Maybe I'm the only one in the world that has dented a rim before but, regardless, this is my reality that I thought I would try to eliminate with disc brakes (though regardless of this I probably need to learn better to avoid the potholes).


Disc rims have the "brake track" lighten because of a no-need for braking surface here. So if material is removed here, chances are the rim may be more prone to damage when hitting a pothole.



> 6) I can't see how the ability to use wider tires isn't seen as an advantage by all. Near as I can tell the best (and perhaps only?) reason why discs have been getting some use by the pro's is for this specific reason.


the number 1 reason manufacturers want to sell disc is due to carbon wheels, because most (except for the top ones) carbon wheels suck at wet braking and over heat in descent. This is by far the reason manufacturers want switch to disc. Of course the opportunity to sell new bikes and parts are ALWAYS in the agenda which no manufacturers will want to admit.


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## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> You're describing simple boiling, due to localized heating. The presence of water simply lowers the boiling point. End of story.
> 
> Again, cavitation is due to the localized fluid pressure dropping below the vapor pressure of the fluid. It is extremely unlikely to occur in brake lines.


I did a bit of research because you were so insistent that boiling and cavitation were not the same. I suggested cause is boiling and effect is cavitation. I saw the distinction argued elsewhere on the web. If you choose your distinction, I can certainly accept that. But pretty clear that boiling creates vapor pockets and loss of incompressibility of fluid to act as a rigid column and what many call cavities of vapor ergo cavitation. But if you want to adhere to your definition of cavitation, ergo cavitation isn't necessarily a function of boiling, I can accept that...not that I have a choice.


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## bike-ra

aclinjury said:


> Disc rims have the "brake track" lighten because of a no-need for braking surface here. So if material is removed here, chances are the rim may be more prone to damage when hitting a pothole.
> 
> 
> the number 1 reason manufacturers want to sell disc is due to carbon wheels, because most (except for the top ones) carbon wheels suck at wet braking and over heat in descent. This is by far the reason manufacturers want switch to disc. Of course the opportunity to sell new bikes and parts are ALWAYS in the agenda which no manufacturers will want to admit.


All good points and more reason to get better at avoiding potholes. Though my last set of alloy MTB rims would be regularly covered with dents along the bead hook lips such that I would once a year bend them out to make sure they wouldn't cause any negative consequences. OTOH my recently-retired MTB carbon rims have no dents...duh...nor any evidence of any damage at all along the same area even after 3yrs. of use. 

I'm hoping this apparent increased level of carbon imperviousness will also carry over to my new carbon road wheels (which are my first carbon road wheels and, indeed, were one reason why I wanted to go with disc brakes).


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## SwiftSolo

aclinjury said:


> the number 1 reason manufacturers want to sell disc is due to carbon wheels, because most (except for the top ones) carbon wheels suck at wet braking and over heat in descent. This is by far the reason manufacturers want switch to disc. Of course the opportunity to sell new bikes and parts are ALWAYS in the agenda which no manufacturers will want to admit.


More evidence that our education system has failed. 

Every manufacturer will admit that they want to sell more product. It's how they grow their business and increase its' value.

They also know that the way to grow is to be at the leading edge of technology (just after the product pioneers) in order to test marketability. The goal is to determine if a new technology is what the market wants and is willing to pay for (Luddites notwithstanding). This process is difficult because of the human propensity to avoid change and because of the opposition that always surfaces early on (witness disc brakes on mtbs). They are aware that they will not make money until enough of the market gets an opportunity to try their product and render opinions. Opinions of those who have limited or no experience with the actual product are never taken seriously.

It's important to remember the rabid opposition to disc brakes on mountain bikes in the beginning. There was a pretty viable excuse for ignorance of the technology at that time in that it was pretty much untried and had not gone through any evolutionary process. Today, virtually no serious mountain bikers object to hydraulic disc brakes. 

To be fair, history shows more resistance to technology among road cyclists but the manufacturers are betting that, eventually, the benefits will become obvious to even the slowest learners.


----------



## aclinjury

bike-ra said:


> All good points and more reason to get better at avoiding potholes. Though my last set of alloy MTB rims would be regularly covered with dents along the bead hook lips such that I would once a year bend them out to make sure they wouldn't cause any negative consequences. OTOH my recently-retired MTB carbon rims have no dents...duh...nor any evidence of any damage at all along the same area even after 3yrs. of use.
> 
> I'm hoping this apparent increased level of carbon imperviousness will also carry over to my new carbon road wheels (which are my first carbon road wheels and, indeed, were one reason why I wanted to with disc brakes)..


Carbon fiber doesn't dent like alloy. You cannot use dent a marker to determine the integrity of carbon fiber. However, carbon fiber does delaminate and crack, and you'll need proper ultrasound equipment and skills to diagnose if such compromise has taken place.


----------



## aclinjury

SwiftSolo said:


> More evidence that our education system has failed.
> 
> Every manufacturer will admit that they want to sell more product. It's how they grow their business and increase its' value.
> 
> They also know that the way to grow is to be at the leading edge of technology (just after the product pioneers) in order to test marketability. The goal is to determine if a new technology is what the market wants and is willing to pay for (Luddites notwithstanding). This process is difficult because of the human propensity to avoid change and because of the opposition that always surfaces early on (witness disc brakes on mtbs). They are aware that they will not make money until enough of the market gets an opportunity to try their product and render opinions. Opinions of those who have limited or no experience with the actual product are never taken seriously.
> 
> It's important to remember the rabid opposition to disc brakes on mountain bikes in the beginning. There was a pretty viable excuse for ignorance of the technology at that time in that it was pretty much untried and had not gone through any evolutionary process. Today, virtually no serious mountain bikers object to hydraulic disc brakes.
> 
> To be fair, history shows more resistance to technology among road cyclists but the manufacturers are betting that, eventually, the benefits will become obvious to even the slowest learners.


You sound like an old broken record. A sign that dementia is setting in.
Not sure what is worse, failed education system or failed mental healthcare system??


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## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> *I did a bit of research* because you were so insistent that boiling and cavitation were not the same. I suggested cause is boiling and effect is cavitation. *I saw the distinction argued elsewhere on the web.* If you choose your distinction, I can certainly accept that. But pretty clear that boiling creates vapor pockets and loss of incompressibility of fluid to act as a rigid column and what many call cavities of vapor ergo cavitation. But if you want to adhere to your definition of cavitation, ergo cavitation isn't necessarily a function of boiling, I can accept that...not that I have a choice.


As I suspected, your physics education comes from Université de Google.


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## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> As I suspected, your physics education comes from Université de Google.


Actually, I was cutting you some slack for being full of BS, i.e. making a distinction without a difference. One of my degrees is in thermodynamics. Your pettiness is palpable.


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## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> Actually, I was cutting you some slack for being full of BS, i.e. making a distinction without a difference.


You made an incorrect statement. I simply corrected it. 



> One of my degrees is in thermodynamics.


And yet, you googled it ...


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## 11spd

Because you have doubled down on an insatiable and disappointing repetition of semantic pedantry, I have no choice but to rule as follows:


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## Lombard

11spd said:


> Because you have doubled down on an insatiable and disappointing repetition of semantic pedantry, I have no choice but to rule as follows:


Same old story again. Someone proves you wrong and you say they're "doubling down" and must declare an executive decision. Sad.


----------



## 11spd

Lombard said:


> Same old story again. Someone proves you wrong and you say they're "doubling down" and must declare an executive decision. Sad.


Sorry, but you being the village idiot, you don't have a vote:


----------



## factory feel

hahahaha!


----------



## 11spd

Check out his new tat!


----------



## SPlKE

I'm going to double down on my opinion about disc brakes on road bikes:

If you've never ridden with high end rim brakes, campy chorus or record, high end Shimano, etc, you have no idea how great rim brakes can be. 

Modulation? Campy nailed it decades ago. Ditto stopping power, wet performance, durability, ease of maintenance, simplicity by design, light weight, compatibility with every kind of riding from tdf mountain stages to everyday commuting on city streets. 

Never in my decades of riding with high end campy and Shimano rim brakes have I ever been less than thrilled with the performance of my brakes. Thrilled!

Why would I trade that for a heavier, more complex, often noisy brake that has hydraulic pressure fittings, messy brake fluid, and requires new hubs?


----------



## Lombard

11spd said:


> Check out his new tat!


It figures. Parroting Factory Feel rather than coming up with an original thought. Sad again.


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## SwiftSolo

aclinjury said:


> You sound like an old broken record. A sign that dementia is setting in.
> Not sure what is worse, failed education system or failed mental healthcare system??


I have to battle the folks who were taught that sprinkling bullsh!t on a subject enough times will turn it into reality. I'm always impressed with the folks who become x-spurts on hydraulic road disc brakes without having suffered the inconvenience of getting some experience. 

In the past educators taught us that pulling fantasy out of ones' ass doesn't turn it into fact. Your take on this subject doesn't pass either the experience or the sniff test.


----------



## SwiftSolo

SPlKE said:


> I'm going to double down on my opinion about disc brakes on road bikes:
> 
> If you've never ridden with high end rim brakes, campy chorus or record, high end Shimano, etc, you have no idea how great rim brakes can be.
> 
> Modulation? Campy nailed it decades ago. Ditto stopping power, wet performance, durability, ease of maintenance, simplicity by design, light weight, compatibility with every kind of riding from tdf mountain stages to everyday commuting on city streets.
> 
> Never in my decades of riding with high end campy and Shimano rim brakes have I ever been less than thrilled with the performance of my brakes. Thrilled!
> 
> Why would I trade that for a heavier, more complex, often noisy brake that has hydraulic pressure fittings, messy brake fluid, and requires new hubs?


These can only be the words of a Floridian with zero hydraulic disc experience. 

I have a 2010 tarmac s-works sl3 with record and super record components that hangs on my den wall unused since 2014 when it was replaced by a bike with hydraulic disc brakes. Before that I have a tarmac with dura ace and relatively, they were also crap.


Get back to us when you get some actual experience with hydraulic disc brakes


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## 11spd

Lombard said:


> It figures. Parroting Factory Feel rather than coming up with an original thought. Sad again.


Tomato Coupe was being a dolt what he does very well. Metaphorically, he is cavitation of thought and dialog on the forum. That will go over your head as well. I was using the term cavitation generically to describe break up of the fluid column which exists when a captured fluid changes state from solid liquid to boiled state due to contamination in the brake system...the body of fluid a conductive heat sink.

He knew what I meant and doubled down. This conversation is so beneath me and of course you as the village idiot who don't know truth from fiction had to interdict in your stupid way which is what you do as FF reminds you and yet you continue...lol.

Definition of cavitation from two sources below:


<section class="css-0 e1rg2mtf0" style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); display: block; font-family: Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">*cavitation*

[kav-i-tey-sh_uh_ n]
</section><button class="css-1fvpz4m e4wg2xj1" style="background-color: transparent; border-bottom-color: rgb(60, 123, 190); border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1; border-left-color: rgb(60, 123, 190); border-left-style: none; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(60, 123, 190); border-right-style: none; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(60, 123, 190); border-top-style: none; border-top-width: 0px; color: rgb(60, 123, 190); cursor: pointer; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 17.25px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 32px; margin-top: 0px; outline-color: invert; outline-style: none; outline-width: 0px; overflow: visible; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none; text-transform: none; -webkit-appearance: button;">Examples</button><button class="css-1fvpz4m e4wg2xj1" style="background-color: transparent; border-bottom-color: rgb(60, 123, 190); border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1; border-left-color: rgb(60, 123, 190); border-left-style: none; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(60, 123, 190); border-right-style: none; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(60, 123, 190); border-top-style: none; border-top-width: 0px; color: rgb(60, 123, 190); cursor: pointer; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 17.25px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 32px; margin-top: 0px; outline-color: invert; outline-style: none; outline-width: 0px; overflow: visible; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-decoration: none; text-transform: none; -webkit-appearance: button;">Word Origin</button><section class="css-1sdcacc e10vl5dg0" style="display: block; margin-bottom: 24px; margin-top: 24px;"><header class="css-1y60q53 e10vl5dg1" style="display: block; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 11px;">noun</header>

the rapid formation and collapse of vapor pockets in a flowing liquid in regions of very low pressure, a frequent cause of structural damage to propellers, pumps, etc.
*such a pocket formed in a flowing liquid.*





*cav·i·ta·tion*

[ˌkavəˈtāSHən]<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" style=" cursor: pointer; direction: ltr; display: inline; height: 16px; left: auto; margin-top: 0px; overflow: hidden; position: static; top: auto; vertical-align: baseline; width: 16px;" viewBox="0 0 28 28" x="0px" y="0px" width="100%" height="100%" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" xml:space="preserve" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" />


NOUN
_physics_



*the formation of an empty space within a solid object or body.*
the formation of bubbles in a liquid, typically by the movement of a propeller through it.




​<strike></strike>

</section>​<strike></strike>


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> These can only be the words of a Floridian with zero hydraulic disc experience.
> 
> I have a 2010 tarmac s-works sl3 with record and super record components that hangs on my den wall unused since 2014 when it was replaced by a bike with hydraulic disc brakes. Before that I have a tarmac with dura ace and relatively, they were also crap.
> 
> 
> Get back to us when you get some actual experience with hydraulic disc brakes


You should really get that Tarmac off your wall Solo Swift. :wink5:

Seriously, the debate won't go away anytime soon. I have owned both. I prefer rim but will say and I think you know my position, I will 'tolerate the cost and inconvenience' of disc if I lived in the mountains or big hills and did a lot of high speed descending which I don't. I would do so for the superior brake performance. 
But, brakes aren't even on my radar in the flat lands. I set them up and ride and never think about them and they work superbly.

So that is the disconnect. Also some have owned them without any squealing or headaches. Some have had nothing but issues with them. Its kind of like press fit BB's really. Some really struggle with them and others like them because never a creak.

So it goes. Don't take it to heart. Accept your choice as others accept theirs. I really don't like them on a road bike for general riding but...would sure like them in if I lived in the mountains where I am on the brakes during big, long duration descents.


----------



## SPlKE

SwiftSolo said:


> These can only be the words of a Floridian with zero hydraulic disc experience.
> 
> I have a 2010 tarmac s-works sl3 with record and super record components that hangs on my den wall unused since 2014 when it was replaced by a bike with hydraulic disc brakes. Before that I have a tarmac with dura ace and relatively, they were also crap.
> 
> 
> Get back to us when you get some actual experience with hydraulic disc brakes


Not a floridian. Pennsylvania guy with lots of steep hills, mountains, MTB experience, commuting 10 miles each way from the burbs to a job in center city philadelphia in all kinds of weather... etc. 

Would I prefer discs on my MTB if I was still riding single track in wet mountain forests? Yes. (Hey, I was an early adopter of the stupid "revolutionary" Shimano U-brake [mud collector] on my MTB in 1986. And the stupid "revolutionary" Shimano BioPace chainrings. I understand how "revolutionary" new bike products are often just about money, not filling an actual need.) 

Do I feel a need to improve braking on my road bike, hills and all? No. Not at all.


----------



## exracer

SwiftSolo said:


> More evidence that our education system has failed.
> 
> Every manufacturer will admit that they want to sell more product. It's how they grow their business and increase its' value.
> 
> They also know that the way to grow is to be at the leading edge of technology (just after the product pioneers) in order to test marketability. The goal is to determine if a new technology is what the market wants and is willing to pay for (Luddites notwithstanding). This process is difficult because of the human propensity to avoid change and because of the opposition that always surfaces early on (witness disc brakes on mtbs). They are aware that they will not make money until enough of the market gets an opportunity to try their product and render opinions. Opinions of those who have limited or no experience with the actual product are never taken seriously.
> 
> It's important to remember the rabid opposition to disc brakes on mountain bikes in the beginning. There was a pretty viable excuse for ignorance of the technology at that time in that it was pretty much untried and had not gone through any evolutionary process. Today, virtually no serious mountain bikers object to hydraulic disc brakes.
> 
> To be fair, history shows more resistance to technology among road cyclists but the manufacturers are betting that, eventually, the benefits will become obvious to even the slowest learners.


Can't remember rabid opposition to disc brakes on mountain bikes, I do remember to opposition to full suspension. All the hard tail guys going on about how it was all about comfort and how they would never own one. I was sitting there thinking "you really think that enduro and motocross bikes have suspension just to make things comfortable?" and just shaking my head. I don't remember any rabid opposition to index shifting vs friction shifting.

I'll tell you what I do see. I see a group of people who automatically criticize anyone who doesn't join the latest bandwagon: 

Ceramic bearings, "oh you got to get them, got to get them, got to get them, if you don't you are a Luddite". 

Compact cranks, "53x39 is old school Luddite, compact is better/faster". If I can push a 39x21 up a 6-7% climb at 70rpm, I need a compact crank for??? what??? mmmm? what? What enormous advantage is it going to give me? My attitude is if you want a compact crank get one but don't give me some some GD BS lecture on why I need one.

Carbon fiber wheels, "oh they are sooooooooooooooo much better than any alloy wheel". They're big advantage being? Weight? Maybe if you ride sew-ups. Faster? Some people on here don't seem to have noticed much of a difference when they switched back to alloy wheels.

Electronic shifting, "so much better, quicker/faster shifts, less maintenance, cleaner cable routing. The less maintenance and cleaner routing maybe true but quicker shifts by what? .01sec? And the good news is the group only costs twice as much as a a mechanical one. Oh hell, why didn't you say so; since I have T-rump money, give me a dozen.

And now disc brakes. Same story over and over. Yes, I have ridden a road bike with disc brakes. They did have good initial bite and good modulation. Overall power was good but not by huge amount over rim brakes (guys on the tour kind of proved that you don't need disc brakes to go fast downhill) and they made more noise than a Jenna Jameson video. 

I'm not opposed to disc brakes. I'm sure someday I'll get a group that has them. I was checking prices since I am thinking about getting a new frame. They all seemed to be bundled with electronic shifting. Campy Record was running $3k+/- vs $1.5k for a mechanical group w/rim brakes. It simply isn't worth the extra cost. They are not going to make that much of a difference in 99.5% of my riding.


----------



## Pisgah2000

exracer said:


> Can't remember rabid opposition to disc brakes on mountain bikes...


Oh, it was there. I was one of them. To be fair, my XTR V-brakes with ceramic Mavics were pretty close in performance to affordable discs like BB7s. Now though? There's no contest. Even mid-level hydraulic discs are miles better and just easier.


----------



## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> Tomato Coupe was being a dolt what he does very well. Metaphorically, he is cavitation of thought and dialog on the forum. That will go over your head as well. I was using the term cavitation generically to describe break up of the fluid column which exists when a captured fluid changes state from solid liquid to boiled state due to contamination in the brake system...the body of fluid a conductive heat sink.
> 
> He knew what I meant and doubled down. This conversation is so beneath me and of course you as the village idiot who don't know truth from fiction had to interdict in your stupid way which is what you do as FF reminds you and yet you continue...lol.


You really need to let this go. The bottom line is, you made an incorrect statement and I pointed out your error. Your personal insults do not make your statement any less incorrect. Posting stupid cartoons does not make your statement any less incorrect.

The definitions you offer do not contradict my previous statement:

"Cavitation occurs *when the localized pressure of a fluid drops* below the vapor pressure of the fluid, *usually due to high fluid velocity*. It is extremely unlikely to occur in the brake lines of a bicycle..." 



11spd said:


> * the rapid formation and collapse of vapor pockets *in a flowing liquid in regions of very low pressure*, a frequent cause of structural damage to propellers, pumps, etc.
> 
> * such a pocket formed *in a flowing liquid*.


The first part clearly states that cavitation is due to a pressure drop in a fluid. The first and second parts specify cavitation occurs in a moving fluid. Neither definition applies to the static fluid of disc brakes.



11spd said:


> * the formation of an empty space *within a solid object* or body.
> 
> * the formation of bubbles in a liquid, *typically by the movement of a propeller* through it.


I have no idea why you posted these definitions, as they are completely irrelevant. The first part refers to voids in solid bodies and the second part refers to cavitation caused by propellers. (Of course, it is _pressure drops_ that causes cavitation around propellers.)


----------



## Lombard

tomato coupe said:


> You really need to let this go. The bottom line is, you made an incorrect statement and I pointed out your error. Your personal insults do not make your statement any less incorrect. Posting stupid cartoons does not make your statement any less incorrect.
> 
> The definitions you offer do not contradict my previous statement:
> 
> "Cavitation occurs *when the localized pressure of a fluid drops* below the vapor pressure of the fluid, *usually due to high fluid velocity*. It is extremely unlikely to occur in the brake lines of a bicycle..."
> 
> 
> 
> The first part clearly states that cavitation is due to a pressure drop in a fluid. The first and second parts specify cavitation occurs in a moving fluid. Neither definition applies to the static fluid of disc brakes.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea why you posted these definitions, as they are completely irrelevant. The first part refers to voids in solid bodies and the second part refers to cavitation caused by propellers. (Of course, it is _pressure drops_ that causes cavitation around propellers.)


Your are simply dealing with a guy with a fragile ego. He resorts to insults (non-original insults spouted by the other resident troll) when you challenge him because his fragile little ego needs to constantly be one-up on everyone. It hurts his fragile little ego so much when he is wrong and called out on it. Just like the little kid who cries when he loses a game. Sad.


----------



## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> You really need to let this go. The bottom line is, you made an incorrect statement and I pointed out your error. Your personal insults do not make your statement any less incorrect. Posting stupid cartoons does not make your statement any less incorrect.
> 
> The definitions you offer do not contradict my previous statement:
> 
> "Cavitation occurs *when the localized pressure of a fluid drops* below the vapor pressure of the fluid, *usually due to high fluid velocity*. It is extremely unlikely to occur in the brake lines of a bicycle..."
> 
> 
> 
> The first part clearly states that cavitation is due to a pressure drop in a fluid. The first and second parts specify cavitation occurs in a moving fluid. Neither definition applies to the static fluid of disc brakes.
> 
> 
> 
> *I have no idea why you posted these definitions, as they are completely irrelevant. *The first part refers to voids in solid bodies and the second part refers to cavitation caused by propellers. (Of course, it is _pressure drops_ that causes cavitation around propellers.)


No, your ignorance and willingness to sully this forum with your insistent definition of cavitation is palpable. In bold above, I presented two separate definition references. Because the second definition of cavitation does not fit your narrative, you deny it. Because of your unexplained blind spot, does not dismiss the second definition of cavitation I sited. You simply do not accept it because it 'doesn't fit your narrative'.

Because of your 'cavitation' of thought, I will give you a further example below. This may even appeal to your lower sensibility, what limited sensibility you have including your selfishness to continue your narrative when you fully understand that the second definition of cavitation I used was perfectly applicable.

The term bark. You believe bark is only bark on a tree. I believe bark is not only bark on a tree but also the bark coming from your vacuous denial of the second definition of bark coming from that of a dog like you.

This is basic. Words have alternative meanings. Because I can't believe you are that stupid, I can only surmise you are insistent because you chose to waste bandwidth here. So, not only strive to be smarter, but try to be less selfish.


----------



## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> No...


Seriously, you really need to let this go.


----------



## exracer

Pisgah2000 said:


> Oh, it was there. I was one of them. To be fair, my XTR V-brakes with ceramic Mavics were pretty close in performance to affordable discs like BB7s. Now though? There's no contest. Even mid-level hydraulic discs are miles better and just easier.


I remember when the 1st cable operated discs came out and people were talking them up in the mags. The 1st hydros hadn't come out yet. I knew one guy who had them Took him forever to stop when they were wet. I had Critical Racing brakes on my M2. For power and modulation I thought they were the best. Never really warmed up to the v-brakes. Had them on my Super V. With the Shimano pads they were either off or they were on. Modulation was crap. Even after I switched out Swiss Stop? Cool Stop?
power and modulation were worlds better but they still didn't match the Criticals for modulation. Power was close though Who did the Tri-angle? Tri-dangle brakes? Can't remember, been too long.


----------



## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> Seriously, you really need to let this go.


Really. You should. Hard to be any more clear how wrong you are by you not embracing the second definition of cavitation I used. Now continue to bark like a dog.


----------



## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> Hard to be any more clear how wrong you are by you not embracing the second definition of cavitation I used.


Actually, I do embrace your second definition. In fact, I embrace all your definitions. Cavitation can be either:

1) "the formation of an empty space *within a solid object* or body"

2) "the formation of bubbles in a liquid, typically *by the movement of a propeller* through it." 

3)"the rapid formation and collapse of vapor pockets *in a flowing liquid in regions of very low pressure*, a frequent cause of structural damage to propellers, pumps, etc."

4) "such a pocket *formed in a flowing liquid*."

You don't seem to grasp the simple fact that none of these definitions are relevant to disc brakes.


----------



## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> Actually, I do embrace your second definition. In fact, I embrace all your definitions. Cavitation can be either:
> 
> 1) "the formation of an empty space *within a solid object* or body"
> 
> 2) "the formation of bubbles in a liquid, typically *by the movement of a propeller* through it."
> 
> 3)"the rapid formation and collapse of vapor pockets *in a flowing liquid in regions of very low pressure*, a frequent cause of structural damage to propellers, pumps, etc."
> 
> 4) "such a pocket *formed in a flowing liquid*."
> 
> You don't seem to grasp the simple fact that none of these definitions are relevant to disc brakes.


Do you deny that if brake fluid becomes contaminated, it is 'possible' that brake fluid can boil?

Here is a definition of Boiling:

*boil·ing
*
[ˈboiliNG]<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" style=" cursor: pointer; direction: ltr; display: inline; height: 16px; left: auto; margin-top: 0px; overflow: hidden; position: static; top: auto; vertical-align: baseline; width: 16px;" viewBox="0 0 28 28" x="0px" y="0px" width="100%" height="100%" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" xml:space="preserve" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" />


ADJECTIVE



(for fresh water at sea level) at 212°F (100°C).
_synonyms:_ at boiling point · at 100 degrees Celsius/centigrade · steaming · [more]



NOUN



*the action of bringing a liquid to the temperature at which it bubbles and turns to vapor.*


​


----------



## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> Do you deny that if brake fluid becomes contaminated, it is 'possible' that brake fluid can boil?


I'm starting to think you don't actually read other people's posts. My very first response to your statement about cavitation was this:

"Although the underlying physics of cavitation and boiling are essentially the same, *boiling is the better description of what happens in a brake line* as it is caused by localized heating. Cavitation would be caused by a localized drop in pressure."


----------



## Pisgah2000

exracer said:


> I remember when the 1st cable operated discs came out and people were talking them up in the mags. The 1st hydros hadn't come out yet. I knew one guy who had them Took him forever to stop when they were wet. I had Critical Racing brakes on my M2. For power and modulation I thought they were the best. Never really warmed up to the v-brakes. Had them on my Super V. With the Shimano pads they were either off or they were on. Modulation was crap. Even after I switched out Swiss Stop? Cool Stop?
> power and modulation were worlds better but they still didn't match the Criticals for modulation. Power was close though Who did the Tri-angle? Tri-dangle brakes? Can't remember, been too long.


Hell, current hydraulic brakes still don't work all that well in rain or snow. They're a little better than the best rim brakes, but they still need a few revolutions to dry the rotor to provide any meaningful braking power. They also get snow packed/non-functional from time to time, but rim brakes suck in that regard too.

Tri-angle? Hmm. Avid tri-dangle cable hangers for canti brakes? I still have the ceramic Crossmax wheelset and XTR V-brakes with the green ceramic-specific pads. Maybe one day I'll rebuild that bike. I have some purple anodized Ringle peace sign cable hangers too... no cantis laying around though.


----------



## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> I'm starting to think you don't actually read other people's posts. My very first response to your statement about cavitation was this:
> 
> "Although the underlying physics of cavitation and boiling are essentially the same, *boiling is the better description of what happens in a brake line* as it is caused by localized heating. Cavitation would be caused by a localized drop in pressure."


Is English your second language? Would explain a lot. You seem to have a linguistic deficit.
 It is ok for you to believe that boiling is a better description. But even though it can even be considered the cause, it does not explain the ‘effect’. What is the effect of boiling fluid within a brake line? Lets go to the definition of boiling:

· *the action of bringing a liquid to the temperature at which it bubbles and turns to vapor.*


Now let’s examine the second definition of cavitation: 

such a pocket *formed in a flowing liquid
*
*My question for you is, do you believe when a liquid boils i.e. changes phase to a gas i.e. vapor, is this by definition forming a pocket in an otherwise homogeneous and incompressible fluid?
If you agree, then we agree my usage of cavitation is correct. 

My definition explains the mechanism at play, why boiling fluid is bad in a braking application. It is because a captured volume of fluid within a brake line becomes compressible. This compressibility causes lack of pressure on brake pads and loss of braking. To me, cavitation ergo the forming of cavities or pockets within a brake line is a succinct way of explaining the dynamic at play even though it does not fit one of two definitions of the word cavitation, just like bark on a tree is not the barking sound emitted by a dog.

*


----------



## tomato coupe

11spd said:


> Is English your second language?


English is my first language. Of more importance, however, is the fact that my physics background is certainly more extensive than yours. 

I made a simple clarification to an erroneous statement you made. My clarification was brief, it was not antagonistic, and it didn't involve any personal attacks. Your pathologic need to argue with anyone who does not agree with 100% of what you write is what has caused this exchange to outlive it's usefulness.


----------



## 11spd

tomato coupe said:


> English is my first language. Of more importance, however, is the fact that my physics background is certainly more extensive than yours.
> 
> I made a simple clarification to an erroneous statement you made. My clarification was brief, it was not antagonistic, and it didn't involve any personal attacks. Your pathologic need to argue with anyone who does not agree with 100% of what you write is what has caused this exchange to outlive it's usefulness.


No, you have steadfast adherence to one of two definitions of the term cavitation. May I address you as Mr. Propeller Head? Sorry for the joke but your limited definition of cavitation does not encompass my reference which is a clearly accepted definition.

Since we can't agree on that, time for a pop quiz which speaks to why I used the term cavitation in the first place in spite of your belief Boiling to be the overarching mechanism at play. It isn't. Name another common dynamic of cavitation common to braking systems that causes loss of braking? This is elementary so I hope you get it right.


----------



## exracer

Pisgah2000 said:


> Hell, current hydraulic brakes still don't work all that well in rain or snow. They're a little better than the best rim brakes, but they still need a few revolutions to dry the rotor to provide any meaningful braking power. They also get snow packed/non-functional from time to time, but rim brakes suck in that regard too.
> 
> Tri-angle? Hmm. Avid tri-dangle cable hangers for canti brakes? I still have the ceramic Crossmax wheelset and XTR V-brakes with the green ceramic-specific pads. Maybe one day I'll rebuild that bike. I have some purple anodized Ringle peace sign cable hangers too... no cantis laying around though.


Yeah, it was Avid. I had a set of Avid brakes on my Amp. They were pretty good also. Don't have a a mountain bike anymore. Had a relatively minor crash back in 05-06, but it was it was enough finish off the knee. Had the ACL reconstruction surgery. The wife blamed the bike so I just got rid of it to save any future arguments. I remember those Ringle peace sign cable hangers. I still have an old Ringle seat post and a pair of Kooka crank arms. Long time ago kept seeing NOS Schwinn Homegrown hard tail frames on ebay. Always wanted to get one and build it up but never got around to it.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Pisgah2000 said:


> Hell, current hydraulic brakes still don't work all that well in rain or snow. They're a little better than the best rim brakes, but they still need a few revolutions to dry the rotor to provide any meaningful braking power. They also get snow packed/non-functional from time to time, but rim brakes suck in that regard too.
> 
> .


Your take of disc brakes is clearly aimed at those who don't use them. Users know anecdotally and practically that it's nonsense. 

Most of us have several years experience with discs and know that in both rain and snow melt they respond nearly identical to their dry behavior (deep snow and slush not withstanding)

Further, every revolution with Ice tech rotors, for example, have 24 scrubbing ports that eject water and dirt. Pads see 24 scrapers on both sides with each revolution. Rims have none (unless they have a bad joint)


----------



## tlg

Pisgah2000 said:


> Hell, current hydraulic brakes still don't work all that well in rain or snow. They're a little better than the best rim brakes, but they still need a few revolutions to dry the rotor to provide any meaningful braking power. They also get snow packed/non-functional from time to time, but rim brakes suck in that regard too.


None of that has any truth.

Disc brakes are simply awesome in rain or snow. There is almost zero discernible difference.


----------



## SwiftSolo

exracer said:


> I'll tell you what I do see. I see a group of people who automatically criticize anyone who doesn't join the latest bandwagon:
> .


What you are actually seeing is a group of actual users attemping to refute misinformation spread by non users.

This forum is called Road Bike Review and was intended to be a place where folk can come to get reliable information from folks who have used and reviewed products. What it has become is a place for Luddites to evangelize their religion without ever bothering with the inconvenience of using and becoming educated with new technology. 

The doctrine of cheapness is the offspring of the doctrine of work/production avoidance--important to know in order to understand the real debate


----------



## Pisgah2000

SwiftSolo said:


> Your take of disc brakes is clearly aimed at those who don't use them. Users know anecdotally and practically that it's nonsense.
> 
> Most of us have several years experience with discs and know that in both rain and snow melt they respond nearly identical to their dry behavior (deep snow and slush not withstanding)
> 
> Further, every revolution with Ice tech rotors, for example, have 24 scrubbing ports that eject water and dirt. Pads see 24 scrapers on both sides with each revolution. Rims have none (unless they have a bad joint)


No, it's just my experience. I've been using discs for about 10 years or so, and in those conditions, they sometimes do not work very well. Generally, they tend to be a lot better and more consistent than rim brakes, but they are not without fault. Go ride in heavy rain and see for yourself. 

It's the same concept with any disc brake, even on a car. There's a reason some manufacturers intermittently "wipe" the rotor with pads in wet weather. It dries the rotor and increases brake response.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Pisgah2000 said:


> No, it's just my experience. I've been using discs for about 10 years or so, and in those conditions, they sometimes do not work very well. Generally, they tend to be a lot better and more consistent than rim brakes, but they are not without fault. Go ride in heavy rain and see for yourself.


I live and ride in the mountain of western Washington 25 miles from the place that held the wolrd recond for annual snowfall until about 15 years ago (I live about 75 miles from the new record holder.


I've been on shimano road hydraulic discs for four seasons and usually start riding when the snowpack is still high.
View attachment 323573


----------



## tlg

Pisgah2000 said:


> No, it's just my experience. I've been using discs for about 10 years or so, and in those conditions, they sometimes do not work very well. Generally, they tend to be a lot better and more consistent than rim brakes, but they are not without fault. Go ride in heavy rain and see for yourself.


Love riding in the heavy rain (when it's warm).

I'd "pink slip" race anyone on rim brakes downhill in the rain.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Pisgah2000 said:


> No, it's just my experience. I've been using discs for about 10 years or so, and in those conditions, they sometimes do not work very well. Generally, they tend to be a lot better and more consistent than rim brakes, but they are not without fault. Go ride in heavy rain and see for yourself.
> 
> It's the same concept with any disc brake, even on a car. There's a reason some manufacturers intermittently "wipe" the rotor with pads in wet weather. It dries the rotor and increases brake response.


Most car rotors have no scrubbing ports. Because of the pressure needed to quickly decelerate a 5000lb car, rotor ports would wear down brake pads very quickly. Racing is an exception because of low expectation of pad longevity.


----------



## Pisgah2000

SwiftSolo said:


> I live and ride in the mountain of western Washington 25 miles from the place that held the wolrd recond for annual snowfall until about 15 years ago (I live about 75 miles from the new record holder.
> 
> 
> I've been on shimano road hydraulic discs for four seasons and usually start riding when the snowpack is still high.
> View attachment 323573


Yep, everybody has different experiences. Just out of curiosity, what pads and brakes are you using? I've had issues with resin and sintered Shimano pads in the wet.

When it comes to snow, I don't know how you get around getting snow-packed calipers. For me, it only takes 3-4 inches and a few miles of riding, and they're usually packed tight. It's obviously worse with mechanical discs than hydros, because the lever arm also gets jammed.


----------



## exracer

SwiftSolo said:


> What you are actually seeing is a group of actual users attemping to refute misinformation spread by non users.
> 
> This forum is called Road Bike Review and was intended to be a place where folk can come to get reliable information from folks who have used and reviewed products. What it has become is a place for Luddites to evangelize their religion without ever bothering with the inconvenience of using and becoming educated with new technology.
> 
> The doctrine of cheapness is the offspring of the doctrine of work/production avoidance--important to know in order to understand the real debate


And then you have people like me who have a wait and see attitude. I've heard all these arguments before in the moto world. Squids talking about how fast they were because they have this bike or that bike vs me who went out to the track and learned how to go fast (California Superbike School). 

I remember people talking up how great carbon fiber frames were compared to everything else. Are they? No and yet I've owned 2.

What else did I learn: 

Ceramic bearings-hugely expensive and not worth the money. Good thing I held off on those. 

Carbon fiber clinchers-not really ready for prime time when they first came out. Just like when full suspension mountain bikes arrived on the scene. Remember all the crap designs? Seemed like they were in such a rush to get wheels to the market that they didn't stop to think that the friction from prolonged braking might cause problems with the resin they were using.

Electronic shifting- tried it, wasn't overly impressed. Didn't care for the feel of the buttons. I understand that the latest version of Di2 has a setting where once it reaches a certain cadence it will automatically shift. For now I know you can turn it off but it still irritates the hell out of me because I'm afraid there will come a day when you can't. That is why I'll stick with mechanical. I don't want some yahoo engineer (I've work in civil engineering for 20 yrs so I earned the right to call us yahoos) or some software guy deciding when that thing is going to shift. 

Disc brakes-I already tried them when I was mountain biking. Like them but never got around to making the switch. Maybe if I had kept racing I would have. So are a benefit? yes Are they a must have? no. Unlike TLG, I don't care to ride in the rain even if it's warm. Maybe if you threw in some hurricane force winds and some lightning, that might make it interesting.


----------



## mik_git

exracer said:


> Electronic shifting- tried it, wasn't overly impressed. Didn't care for the feel of the buttons. I understand that the latest version of Di2 has a setting where once it reaches a certain cadence it will automatically shift. For now I know you can turn it off but it still irritates the hell out of me because I'm afraid there will come a day when you can't. That is why I'll stick with mechanical. I don't want some yahoo engineer (I've work in civil engineering for 20 yrs so I earned the right to call us yahoos) or some software guy deciding when that thing is going to shift.


No it has a feature that when you hit a certain gear combo, the next shift will shift the front ring and X amount of rears.Its not based on cadence.



I'll admit it took me a long time to get used to disc brakes on my mtb, well mt XT's, my sram things, not so much as they worked a lot like V's, but my XT were SO much more powerful it did take me an age to get the right feel for them. Just yesterday I was riding my v'brake bike and while the brakes work they are nothing comapred to my discs, you have to plan way ahead, get loads more arm pump.


----------



## tfinator

11spd said:


> And of course fluid by definition is incompressible .


This makes me doubt everything you say. 

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## tlg

exracer said:


> Electronic shifting- tried it, wasn't overly impressed. Didn't care for the feel of the buttons. I understand that the latest version of Di2 has a setting where once it reaches a certain cadence it will automatically shift. For now I know you can turn it off but it still irritates the hell out of me because I'm afraid there will come a day when you can't. That is why I'll stick with mechanical. I don't want some yahoo engineer (I've work in civil engineering for 20 yrs so I earned the right to call us yahoos) or some software guy deciding when that thing is going to shift.


lmao 
Your understanding is completely utterly wrong. 
Di2 does not shift based on cadence. You don't get to call engineers yahoos if you have no clue what you're talking about.


----------



## tlg

tfinator said:


> This makes me doubt everything you say.


Do not question him!!!
Didn't you know one of his degrees is in thermodynamics???

Clearly he must've been absent the day(s) they covered coefficient of compressibility. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressibility
In thermodynamics and fluid mechanics, compressibility (also known as the coefficient of compressibility[1] or isothermal compressibility[2]) is a measure of the relative volume change of a fluid


----------



## tfinator

tlg said:


> Do not question him!!!
> Didn't you know one of his degrees is in thermodynamics???
> 
> Clearly he must've been absent the day(s) they covered coefficient of compressibility.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressibility
> In thermodynamics and fluid mechanics, compressibility (also known as the coefficient of compressibility[1] or isothermal compressibility[2]) is a measure of the relative volume change of a fluid


It's as if they divide fluids into two classes: incompressible, and gee wiz, I can't remember the other.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## 11spd

tfinator said:


> This makes me doubt everything you say.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


Discussion pertains to brake fluid which if uncontaminated is by definition incompressible.

But if you must, on the discussion of 'dissolved air' which by definition air is a fluid and is compressible, can be defined as follows which is a bit counterintuitive. But this is distinction between dissolved air and entrapped air is getting more into the weeds but an interesting dynamic of physics nonetheless.

*Loss of bulk modulus — *Free or entrained air in the hydraulic system reduces substantially the effective bulk modulus of the system. That is, an air-oil mixture appears to increase the compressibility of the fluid, making the system spongy. This is common in brake systems for example.

Test data seems to indicate that *dissolved air *has no effect on bulk modulus, *providing the air is in solution. *These facts, at first, appear paradoxical. However, if one visualizes a container filled to the brim with marbles (which represent the oil molecules) it is possible to pour in a fluid (representing air) around them, or remove the fluid with no change in volume. The weight of the container changes but not the volume. This is based upon the arrangement of air (compressible) and brake fluid (incompressible) molecules together.
​


----------



## Jay Strongbow

tlg said:


> lmao
> Your understanding is completely utterly wrong.
> Di2 does not shift based on cadence. You don't get to call engineers yahoos if you have no clue what you're talking about.


His understanding doesn't sound wrong to me. 
https://www.bikeexchange.com/blog/shimano-synchro-shifting-settings-explained

"As you shift up or down the cassette, the 'Full Synchro Shift' mode will decide whether you should be in the large or small front chain ring, changing it accordingly to the right gear combination in order to maintain the smoothest cadence"


----------



## tlg

Jay Strongbow said:


> His understanding doesn't sound wrong to me.
> https://www.bikeexchange.com/blog/shimano-synchro-shifting-settings-explained
> 
> "As you shift up or down the cassette, the 'Full Synchro Shift' mode will decide whether you should be in the large or small front chain ring, changing it accordingly to the right gear combination in order to maintain the smoothest cadence"


He said "once it reaches a certain cadence it will automatically shift".
No it does not. And what you posted doesn't say that either.


----------



## Jay Strongbow

tlg said:


> He said "once it reaches a certain cadence it will automatically shift".
> No it does not. *And what you posted doesn't say that either*.


I think it does. How can it shift "accordingly to the right gear combination in order to maintain the smoothest cadence" without basing that shift on a certain cadence?


----------



## tlg

Jay Strongbow said:


> I think it does. How can it shift "accordingly to the right gear combination in order to maintain the smoothest cadence" without basing that shift on a certain cadence?


Your thinking is wrong. Di2 doesn't have a cadence sensor. It does not automatically shift based on cadence. 
It selects the best gear combination to prevent large jumps through the chaining so YOU can maintain the smoothest cadence. 
The link you provided explains it very clearly 

"An example of synchro shift when working down the rear cassette: Starting in the small chain ring at the front and shifting the rear derailleur from 28T towards 11T, the system recognizes the preferred gear ratio step should be made between the 15T and 17T sprocket. When the change is made to the 15T sprocket, synchro shift will kick in and automatically change the front derailleur to initiate the large chain ring, and move the rear derailleur back up the cassette (towards the 28T) so the change is smooth and you can maintain smooth pedaling efficiency. This automated response reduces any cross chaining, loss of efficiency and major interruptions to your pedaling speed (cadence)."


----------



## tlg

11spd said:


> Discussion pertains to brake fluid which if uncontaminated is by definition incompressible.


Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it true. I know one of your degrees is in fluid dynamics... but seriously.

https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.co.../Article/False/70094/TechZone-HydraulicFluids
Bulk Modulus: What is it? When is it Important?
You should consider bulk modulus — the measure of a fluid's resistance to compression —of a hydraulic fluid if position, response time, and stability are critical.
Despite *the frequent assumption that hydraulic fluid is incompressible*, the fact remains: All fluids have some degree of compressibility. Granted, fluid compressibility may be neglected in systems that do not require tight control of response and where operating pressure and fluid volume are moderate. However, when applying high pressure to a large volume of fluid, a significant amount of energy can be expended to compress the fluid — *essentially squeezing the fluid's molecules closer together*.

https://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/compressibility_hydraulic_fluid.htm
Compressibility of Hydraulic Fluid. Compressibility is a measure of the amount of
volume reduction due to pressure. Compressibility is sometimes expressed by the bulk
modulus, which is the reciprocal of compressibility. Petroleum fluids are *relatively
incompressible*, but volume reductions can be approximately 0.5 percent for pressures
ranging from 6900 kPa (1000 lb/sq in) up to 27,600 kPa (4000 lb/sq in). Compressibility
increases with pressure and temperature and has significant effects on high-pressure fluid
systems.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1314/hydraulic-fluid-perfect
Given that the perfect hydraulic fluid — *one with infinite stiffness, exists only in our imagination*, and in view of the current trend toward hydraulic equipment with higher operating pressures, higher power density and faster response — it's more important than ever to consider the operational effects of fluid compressibility on hydraulic equipment.


----------



## exracer

Well then then I was wrong On the cadence thing. I remember seeing an article 4 mos+/- ago and couldn't remember the whole thing. I thought it was based on cadence.
Bigger point being it will shift one it's own, though not not base on cadence. So sorry, my mistake. Better send out the goon squad to round me up and send me off to Devil's Island as punishment.

As far as calling engineers yahoos; yeah, I do. If you don't like it, piss off.


----------



## tlg

exracer said:


> Bigger point being it will shift one it's own, though not not base on cadence. So sorry, my mistake.


That's not correct either. It doesn't just shift on it's own. You push a button. THEN it shifts both derailleurs sequentially. The system doesn't just decide to shift on it's own.


----------



## 11spd

tlg said:


> That's not correct either. It doesn't just shift on it's own. You push a button. THEN it shifts both derailleurs sequentially. The system doesn't just decide to shift on it's own.


just a point of clarification because you wanted to get into the weeds of compressibility of fluids.
I can make Di2 systems seemingly shift on their own. I have hacked Di2 on competitors bikes and made them shift to shorter gearing in a race which has allowed me to win local races. So it can be done and with great strategic advantage.


----------



## xxl

11spd said:


> ...
> I can make Di2 systems seemingly shift on their own. I have hacked Di2 on competitors bikes and made them shift to shorter gearing in a race which has allowed me to win local races. So it can be done and with great strategic advantage.


You didn't actually win, you cheated. 

People might think you won, you might think you won, but you didn't win.

:frown2:


----------



## 11spd

xxl said:


> You didn't actually win, you cheated.
> 
> People might think you won, you might think you won, but you didn't win.
> 
> :frown2:


Lance won too. Other's have this Di2 hacking capability so its almost an even playing field. But, and this is the important distinction, my D-fly ANT transmitter has long range capability. The reason why I win is because I can affect a wider array of bikes in the race because my transmission range is greater. I can even change shifting of bikes in other towns. So like Lance who won too but was discredited, that doesn't make it right. Right is right.


----------



## 11spd

tlg said:


> Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it true. I know one of your degrees is in fluid dynamics... but seriously.
> 
> https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.co.../Article/False/70094/TechZone-HydraulicFluids
> Bulk Modulus: What is it? When is it Important?
> You should consider bulk modulus — the measure of a fluid's resistance to compression —of a hydraulic fluid if position, response time, and stability are critical.
> Despite *the frequent assumption that hydraulic fluid is incompressible*, the fact remains: All fluids have some degree of compressibility. Granted, fluid compressibility may be neglected in systems that do not require tight control of response and where operating pressure and fluid volume are moderate. However, when applying high pressure to a large volume of fluid, a significant amount of energy can be expended to compress the fluid — *essentially squeezing the fluid's molecules closer together*.
> 
> https://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/compressibility_hydraulic_fluid.htm
> Compressibility of Hydraulic Fluid. Compressibility is a measure of the amount of
> volume reduction due to pressure. Compressibility is sometimes expressed by the bulk
> modulus, which is the reciprocal of compressibility. Petroleum fluids are *relatively
> incompressible*, but volume reductions can be approximately 0.5 percent for pressures
> ranging from 6900 kPa (1000 lb/sq in) up to 27,600 kPa (4000 lb/sq in). Compressibility
> increases with pressure and temperature and has significant effects on high-pressure fluid
> systems.
> 
> https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1314/hydraulic-fluid-perfect
> Given that the perfect hydraulic fluid — *one with infinite stiffness, exists only in our imagination*, and in view of the current trend toward hydraulic equipment with higher operating pressures, higher power density and faster response — it's more important than ever to consider the operational effects of fluid compressibility on hydraulic equipment.


I agree with you. Its an esoteric discussion. The compressibility or lack thereof has been long established relative to the suitability of a variety of braking fluids, some better than others based upon different braking conditions.

But here is the point going over your head. It is infiltration of air which is highly compressible, that hugely impacts braking performance. Type of liquid based brake fluid is a much smaller contributor due to bulk modulus similarity.


----------



## tlg

11spd said:


> just a point of clarification because you wanted to get into the weeds of compressibility of fluids.
> I can make Di2 systems seemingly shift on their own. I have hacked Di2 on competitors bikes and made them shift to shorter gearing in a race which has allowed me to win local races. So it can be done and with great strategic advantage.


You haven't clarified anything. 
There are no "weeds" regarding compressibility of fluids. You repeated an incorrect statement. That's been abundantly proven false.

You didn't clarify anything regarding Di2 operability. Just some anecdote (which I don't believe for a second) that you hacked the system.


----------



## tlg

11spd said:


> But here is the point going over your head. It is infiltration of air which is highly compressible, that hugely impacts braking performance.


I never said that. Nor do I disagree with it.

Nice failure at assuming things.


----------



## 11spd

tlg said:


> I never said that. Nor do I disagree with it.
> 
> Nice failure at assuming things.


I think the guys here picking the corn out of the fly sheet have an insatiable need to disagree with what I have written which is conventional wisdom including inclusions of 'cavities' or pockets of air or vapor due to boiling that TC didn't want to concede was correct usage. So it goes. Take your pedantic attention and others to the notion of compressibility. Hydraulic brake systems by their nature rely on the incompressible nature of fluid for function. But yes, all things or likely most things in nature when applied enough pressure will compress including brake fluid under ten of thousands of pounds of square inch.


----------



## tfinator

You can't pull up if you've already smashed into the ground. 

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## tfinator

11spd said:


> I think the guys here picking the corn out of the fly sheet have an insatiable need to disagree with what I have written which is conventional wisdom including inclusions of 'cavities' or pockets of air or vapor due to boiling that TC didn't want to concede was correct usage. So it goes. Take your pedantic attention and others to the notion of compressibility. Hydraulic brake systems by their nature rely on the incompressible nature of fluid for function. But yes, all things or likely most things in nature when applied enough pressure will compress including brake fluid under ten of thousands of pounds of square inch.


On the whole cavitation/boiling/air making brakes not effective, and ignoring the fact that you use big terms that you've obviously googled just to sound smart:

Why are these such a big concern on RBR, while we don't talk about them on MTBR?

The only time this comes up is when a bad bleed causes air bubbles in the brake line. The brakes still work great most of the time, but can be inconsistent. This being said, a quick bleed fixes it. So why is this such a big deal in this debate, but in practice it isn't?

Maybe air or water will get introduced into the line while riding. But again, this is rare or happens very slowly, so it's not much of a concern. So why is it such a sticking point for you?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## SPlKE

Anybody want to hear about my Campy rim brakes again?

TL;DR version: I love em.


----------



## Pisgah2000

tfinator said:


> Why are these such a big concern on RBR, while we don't talk about them on MTBR?


Because a lot of people here don't actually use or own them, I'd guess. That or people like to pick a side and argue for the sake of it. It is the internet, after all. That's what we do here. 

Sure, you have to bleed hydraulic brakes every so often, but like you say, it's pretty easy on most brakes. It's basically a non-issue.

Hell, I have never even serviced the hydraulic Maguras on one of our bikes, and it's from 2012. Original fluid, bleed, pads, rotors. Is that the best idea? No. It only has a couple thousand miles on it, but works as well as any other. It even hung upside-down since new, and the internet says that you can't do that with hydraulic brakes.


----------



## 11spd

tfinator said:


> On the whole cavitation/boiling/air making brakes not effective, and ignoring the fact that you use big terms that *you've obviously googled just to sound smart:*
> 
> Why are these such a big concern on RBR, while we don't talk about them on MTBR?
> 
> The only time this comes up is when a bad bleed causes air bubbles in the brake line. The brakes still work great most of the time, but can be inconsistent. This being said, a quick bleed fixes it. So why is this such a big deal in this debate, but in practice it isn't?
> 
> Maybe air or water will get introduced into the line while riding. But again, this is rare or happens very slowly, so it's not much of a concern. So why is it such a sticking point for you?
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


what you wrote in bold is silly. Are these big words for you? How about the worlds semantic, or nomenclature and root meaning? Words have meaning. Some words have alternative meaning. Like bark and cavitation. What is silly is when semantics and nomenclature is used to deny the veracity of thought. That is what we have here. Like the term incompressible. When Tig posts there is no such thing as an incompressible substance. What level of compressibility is considered incompressible? I can site countless web references to incompressible fluids including brake fluid.

So what we have here is people too dumb to differential word usage...or deliberate excuse to detract from a poster's point by semantic inference.

Hydraulic braking system maintenance isn't just an issue with me. It is among the many reasons many prefer rim brakes on road bikes. Needless. Don't have to mess with it on road bikes if you buy a rim brake bike...or...many find changing a cable easier than maintaining a clean, sealed hydraulic brake system.


----------



## tfinator

11spd said:


> So what we have here is people too dumb to differential word usage...
> 
> .


Highlighting this because it's hilarious.

The rest of your post didn't do much to answer the question, so I'm not gonna bother with it.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## 11spd

tfinator said:


> Highlighting this because it's hilarious.
> 
> The rest of your post didn't do much to answer the question, so I'm not gonna bother with it.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


Your insinuation into the thread was nebulous anyway...lol.
How is that for word usage? Translation? Your posts here were dumb. That should be easy enough for you.


----------



## SwiftSolo

11spd said:


> I think the guys here picking the corn out of the fly sheet have an insatiable need to disagree with what I have written which is conventional wisdom including inclusions of 'cavities' or pockets of air or vapor due to boiling that TC didn't want to concede was correct usage. So it goes. Take your pedantic attention and others to the notion of compressibility. Hydraulic brake systems by their nature rely on the incompressible nature of fluid for function. But yes, all things or likely most things in nature when applied enough pressure will compress including brake fluid under ten of thousands of pounds of square inch.


I agree that, for the sake of the discussion about hydraulic disc brakes, brake fluid is essentially not compressible. It is likely that hydraulic line stretch is a substantially bigger factor (but still minesquel) .

On the other hand, air infiltration will likely show up as an easily detectable spongy feeling in the levers--similar to the feeling one gets when your rim brake surfaces are about to puke from wear. While I've never experienced the first, I have the latter.


----------



## tfinator

11spd said:


> Your insinuation into the thread was nebulous anyway...lol.
> How is that for word usage? Translation? Your posts here were dumb. That should be easy enough for you.


Noted, all the problems you talked about above not being an issue you have no explanation for.

I think you may be talking about your own posts. Sorry.

Unless you do have an answer to that question, which I'm interested in hearing

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## exracer

tlg said:


> That's not correct either. It doesn't just shift on it's own. You push a button. THEN it shifts both derailleurs sequentially. The system doesn't just decide to shift on it's own.


Ok, now I got you. Thanks for clearing that up. Like I said bad memory on my part.


----------



## 11spd

SwiftSolo said:


> I agree that, for the sake of the discussion about hydraulic disc brakes, brake fluid is essentially not compressible. It is likely that hydraulic line stretch is a substantially bigger factor (but still minesquel) .
> 
> On the other hand, air infiltration will likely show up as an easily detectable spongy feeling in the levers--similar to the feeling one gets when your rim brake surfaces are about to puke from wear. While I've never experienced the first, I have the latter.


Exactly. Common for air to infiltrate hydraulic braking systems from autos, to motorcycles to disc brake bikes as you say and of course resolvable. 

Quite rare for brake fade to occur due to fluid boil i.e. cavitation and greater compressibility...for simple reason that this takes a high threshold of braking...prolonged heat transfer based upon brakes which are designed with suitable heat sink to not overcook the fluid under extreme conditions. This is tested for in brake development including presumably with tainted fluid with lowered boiling point. These margins are generally explored during design validation testing.


----------



## harvey.nott

Fluid is also hydroscopic and will draw in moisture 

that causes as many problems as air and is why fluid should be changed at regular intervals 

also depends on environment (humidity) and where a bike is stored 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## 11spd

tlg said:


> You haven't clarified anything.
> There are no "weeds" regarding compressibility of fluids. You repeated an incorrect statement. That's been abundantly proven false.
> 
> You didn't clarify anything regarding Di2 operability. Just some anecdote (which I don't believe for a second) that you hacked the system.


My greater concern is somebody hacked your brain into believing your contribution of fluid compressibility has any credibility. Its laughable. Uncontaminated brake fluid is universally regarded as incompressible even though all matter in the universe can be compressed under extreme pressure. Water is also. Maybe you should move on to clouds causing rain or the sun causing radiation...lol.

I believe the larger issue is somebody has chipped your brain to dumb you down and you are being controlled by a toddler.


----------



## 11spd

harvey.nott said:


> Fluid is also hydroscopic and will draw in moisture
> 
> that causes as many problems as air and is why fluid should be changed at regular intervals
> 
> also depends on environment (humidity) and where a bike is stored
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Technical reference is hygroscopic...but BS to quibble about such things:

hy·gro·scop·ic

[ˌhīɡrəˈskäpik]<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" style=" cursor: pointer; direction: ltr; display: inline; height: 16px; left: auto; margin-top: 0px; overflow: hidden; position: static; top: auto; vertical-align: baseline; width: 16px;" viewBox="0 0 28 28" x="0px" y="0px" width="100%" height="100%" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" xml:space="preserve" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace">


</svg>

ADJECTIVE



(of a substance) tending to absorb moisture from the air.
relating to humidity or its measurement.




​


----------



## tlg

11spd said:


> My greater concern is somebody hacked your brain into believing your contribution of fluid compressibility has any credibility. Its laughable. Uncontaminated brake fluid is universally regarded as incompressible even though all matter in the universe can be compressed under extreme pressure. Water is also. Maybe you should move on to clouds causing rain or the sun causing radiation...lol.
> 
> I believe the larger issue is somebody has chipped your brain to dumb you down and you are being controlled by a toddler.


Backpedal and personal insults noted. Because we all know that's all you got.

Doesn't change the fact that you were outright wrong. Engineers (which I am) and we know one of your degrees is in fluid dynamics... you should understand it too. 

When you design hydraulic systems, hydraulic fluid compression is taken into account. But no one needs to take my credibility. I've proven it.

https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.co.../Article/False/70094/TechZone-HydraulicFluids
Bulk Modulus: What is it? When is it Important?
You should consider bulk modulus — the measure of a fluid's resistance to compression —of a hydraulic fluid if position, response time, and stability are critical.
Despite *the frequent assumption that hydraulic fluid is incompressible*, the fact remains: All fluids have some degree of compressibility. Granted, fluid compressibility may be neglected in systems that do not require tight control of response and where operating pressure and fluid volume are moderate. However, when applying high pressure to a large volume of fluid, a significant amount of energy can be expended to compress the fluid — *essentially squeezing the fluid's molecules closer together*.

https://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/compressibility_hydraulic_fluid.htm
Compressibility of Hydraulic Fluid. Compressibility is a measure of the amount of
volume reduction due to pressure. Compressibility is sometimes expressed by the bulk
modulus, which is the reciprocal of compressibility. Petroleum fluids are *relatively
incompressible*, but volume reductions can be approximately 0.5 percent for pressures
ranging from 6900 kPa (1000 lb/sq in) up to 27,600 kPa (4000 lb/sq in). Compressibility
increases with pressure and temperature and has significant effects on high-pressure fluid
systems.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1314/hydraulic-fluid-perfect
Given that the perfect hydraulic fluid — *one with infinite stiffness, exists only in our imagination*, and in view of the current trend toward hydraulic equipment with higher operating pressures, higher power density and faster response — it's more important than ever to consider the operational effects of fluid compressibility on hydraulic equipment.


----------



## 11spd

tlg said:


> Backpedal and personal insults noted. Because we all know that's all you got.
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that you were outright wrong. Engineers (which I am) and we know one of your degrees is in fluid dynamics... you should understand it too.
> 
> When you design hydraulic systems, hydraulic fluid compression is taken into account. But no one needs to take my credibility. I've proven it.
> 
> https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.co.../Article/False/70094/TechZone-HydraulicFluids
> Bulk Modulus: What is it? When is it Important?
> You should consider bulk modulus — the measure of a fluid's resistance to compression —of a hydraulic fluid if position, response time, and stability are critical.
> Despite *the frequent assumption that hydraulic fluid is incompressible*, the fact remains: All fluids have some degree of compressibility. Granted, fluid compressibility may be neglected in systems that do not require tight control of response and where operating pressure and fluid volume are moderate. However, when applying high pressure to a large volume of fluid, a significant amount of energy can be expended to compress the fluid — *essentially squeezing the fluid's molecules closer together*.
> 
> https://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/compressibility_hydraulic_fluid.htm
> Compressibility of Hydraulic Fluid. Compressibility is a measure of the amount of
> volume reduction due to pressure. Compressibility is sometimes expressed by the bulk
> modulus, which is the reciprocal of compressibility. Petroleum fluids are *relatively
> incompressible*, but volume reductions can be approximately 0.5 percent for pressures
> ranging from 6900 kPa (1000 lb/sq in) up to 27,600 kPa (4000 lb/sq in). Compressibility
> increases with pressure and temperature and has significant effects on high-pressure fluid
> systems.
> 
> https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1314/hydraulic-fluid-perfect
> Given that the perfect hydraulic fluid — *one with infinite stiffness, exists only in our imagination*, and in view of the current trend toward hydraulic equipment with higher operating pressures, higher power density and faster response — it's more important than ever to consider the operational effects of fluid compressibility on hydraulic equipment.


Worse than I thought. The kid that hacked your brain has placed you in an interminable do loop. Your google postings are as irrelevant as they were the first time. Pedantic tripe. Duh.


*Notes on Brake Fluid Ratings*

Brake fluid is possibly the single most neglected component of the automobile. Most high performance drivers check their tire pressures and change their engine oil at frequent intervals, but virtually no one ever changes the brake fluid in their street car. *The function of brake fluid is to provide an incompressible medium* to transmit the driver’s foot pressure on the brake pedal through the master cylinder(s) to the calipers in order to clamp the friction material against the discs. The foot pressure is multiplied by the mechanical pedal ratio and the hydraulic ratio of the master cylinders, booster (if used) and caliper piston(s).This is a simple concept. *When fresh, all brake fluids are virtually incompressible and the system works as well as its mechanical and hydraulic design allows*. There can be, however, significant problems in the proper functioning of brake fluid. Overheated brake fluid can (and will) boil in the caliper. Boiling produces gas bubbles within any boiling fluid. *Gas is compressible so boiling brake fluid leads to a “soft” brake pedal with long travel.* In extreme cases overheated brake fluid necessitates “pumping the brake pedal” in order to get a pedal at all.​


----------



## xxl

11spd said:


> Lance won too. Other's have this Di2 hacking capability so its almost an even playing field. But, and this is the important distinction, my D-fly ANT transmitter has long range capability. The reason why I win is because I can affect a wider array of bikes in the race because my transmission range is greater. I can even change shifting of bikes in other towns. So like Lance who won too but was discredited, that doesn't make it right. Right is right.


Right_ is _right, and cheating isn't right, it's wrong.


----------



## tlg

11spd said:


> This is a simple concept. *When fresh, all brake fluids are virtually incompressible *


*Virtually. 

LMFAOROTF!! 

Thanks!*


----------



## xxl

11spd said:


> *Notes on Brake Fluid Ratings*
> 
> Brake fluid is possibly the single most neglected component of the automobile. Most high performance drivers check their tire pressures and change their engine oil at frequent intervals, but virtually no one ever changes the brake fluid in their street car. *The function of brake fluid is to provide an incompressible medium* to transmit the driver’s foot pressure on the brake pedal through the master cylinder(s) to the calipers in order to clamp the friction material against the discs. The foot pressure is multiplied by the mechanical pedal ratio and the hydraulic ratio of the master cylinders, booster (if used) and caliper piston(s).This is a simple concept. *When fresh, all brake fluids are virtually incompressible and the system works as well as its mechanical and hydraulic design allows*. There can be, however, significant problems in the proper functioning of brake fluid. Overheated brake fluid can (and will) boil in the caliper. Boiling produces gas bubbles within any boiling fluid. *Gas is compressible so boiling brake fluid leads to a “soft” brake pedal with long travel.* In extreme cases overheated brake fluid necessitates “pumping the brake pedal” in order to get a pedal at all.​


Steve, is that you?

Brake Fluid


----------



## Coolhand

*Moderators Note*



11spd said:


> It is also analogous to TC's usage which is loss of propulsion with propellers in the water as an example. Continuity of fluid is interrupted and therefore loss of propulsion. Voids or pockets of fluid per the second and common definition of cavitation causes loss of energy transfer. Point is, TC knows this but was being a dick. That is the point. TC is a dick and he knows it. This stuff is elementary to any degreed engineer or somebody like TC who has a background in physics.
> 
> Same dynamic with Tig. Tig is a dick which most on the forum know. His references he posted don't have relevancy to discussion at hand. Of course nothing in the universe is incompressible from diamonds to brake fluid to water if you dive off the high dive and land on your stomach. But, compressibility is very high for 'all' liquids and common brake fluids that are spec'ed for braking if uncontaminated.
> 
> It is the contamination of brake fluid that changes its properties, from ingress of water which will lower its boiling point ergo the hygroscopic nature of most brake fluids to either the dissolvement or entrapment of air in the lines of a brake system that will degrade braking. Water ingression 'can' cause boiling albeit quite rare under very continuous braking conditions and I explained how dissolvement of air actually detracts very little counterintuitively from compressibility because of how the molecules line up. By contrast, air as an adjunct to brake fluid in the line has a high degree of compressibility which results in lost braking. Many have experienced this. Now it could be argued that Tig isn't stupid either but his links weren't relevant. He may understand that they weren't relevant either but like TC Tig is a known dick.
> 
> Now you XXL, you may qualify as just dumb. Not sure. You really haven't posted any substance either way. So you are merely benign which is OK.


Way over the line, and you know better. After the time-out, the warnings are done.


----------



## Lombard

Coolhand said:


> Way over the line, and you know better. After the time-out, the warnings are done.


Thank you Coolhand! After multiple temp bans, you think 11spd would've learned, but I guess not.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Pisgah2000 said:


> Yep, everybody has different experiences. Just out of curiosity, what pads and brakes are you using? I've had issues with resin and sintered Shimano pads in the wet.
> 
> When it comes to snow, I don't know how you get around getting snow-packed calipers. For me, it only takes 3-4 inches and a few miles of riding, and they're usually packed tight. It's obviously worse with mechanical discs than hydros, because the lever arm also gets jammed.


I'm using Shimano's early road disc calipers which were an offshoot of XTR calipers and resin pads.

I think you may have missed my _(deep snow and slush notwithstanding)_ disclaimer. I agree that deep wet snow or slush is a problem and I try to avoid it on my road bike for a number of reasons. If I were still mountain biking in those conditions I would prefer V brakes. They work poorly as well but are easier to clean


----------



## Pisgah2000

SwiftSolo said:


> I'm using Shimano's early road disc calipers which were an offshoot of XTR calipers and resin pads.
> 
> I think you may have missed my _(deep snow and slush notwithstanding)_ disclaimer. I agree that deep wet snow or slush is a problem and I try to avoid it on my road bike for a number of reasons. If I were still mountain biking in those conditions I would prefer V brakes. They work poorly as well but are easier to clean


Gotcha. Yep, I missed your disclaimer.


----------



## Jwiffle

Don't think I've commented on this thread, yet. But it has so many replies, i thought I'd try to help it along to 1,000.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## GlobalGuy

Coolhand said:


> Way over the line, and you know better. After the time-out, the warnings are done.


As an innocent lurker bystander on the portion of the thread and the character to whom you refer, how does it go so far over such a long period of time? It's baffling. Stepping in at this point seems IMO and with respect to being pointless. And the situation is that the main players are habitual offenders who all get a pass here and everywhere else or so it seems.


----------



## Lombard

Jwiffle said:


> Don't think I've commented on this thread, yet. But it has so many replies, i thought I'd try to help it along to 1,000.


LOL! Your comment is just as useful as any of the others in this thread.


----------



## factory feel

Lombard said:


> Thank you Coolhand! After multiple temp bans, you think 11spd would've learned, but I guess not.


aren't you gonna give him some fake rep., VI?


----------



## shermes

factory feel said:


> aren't you gonna give him some fake rep., VI?


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to factory feel again.


----------



## factory feel

shermes said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to factory feel again.


Hahahaha I love it!


----------



## Lombard

factory feel said:


> aren't you gonna give him some fake rep., VI?


Sounds like you're upset now that your fellow troll friend has been banned. Boohoohoo! :cryin:


----------



## factory feel

Lombard said:


> Sounds like you're upset now that your fellow troll friend has been banned. Boohoohoo! :cryin:


He still owns you even when he’s temp suspended!


----------



## Lombard

factory feel said:


> He still owns you even when he’s temp suspended!


Sorry dude, I don't think this one is a temp.


----------



## Coolhand

Please return to how fabulous/terrible disc brakes on road bikes are. We can get to 30 pages!


----------



## factory feel

Disc Brakes are great except on road bikes, until I get one then they'll be great on them too!


----------



## Lombard

Coolhand said:


> Please return to how fabulous/terrible disc brakes on road bikes are. We can get to 30 pages!


There are fabulous rim brakes and disc brakes.

There are terrible rim brakes and disc brakes.

There, how's that? :thumbsup:


----------



## factory feel

slurp


----------



## Coolhand

This just in- I now have two road bikes with disc brakes. TWO! /evil cackle


----------



## xxl

Coolhand said:


> This just in- I now have two road bikes with disc brakes. TWO! /evil cackle


Since we're so close to thirty pages, and I'm not sure anyone has actually weighed in on the topic, let me ask: 

How do you like your disc brakes?

Do you notice differences/prefer one set of discs to the other?

Do you have any rim brake bikes? How much do they suck/how awesome (pick one) are they?

Asking for a friend.


----------



## Lombard

xxl said:


> Since we're so close to thirty pages, and I'm not sure anyone has actually weighed in on the topic, let me ask:
> 
> How do you like your disc brakes?
> 
> Do you notice differences/prefer one set of discs to the other?
> 
> Do you have any rim brake bikes? How much do they suck/how awesome (pick one) are they?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


I own 7 bikes. Only one, my gravel bike has hydraulic disc brakes.

Disc brakes are awesome except when they suck, except that I haven't found an instance when they suck. The same goes for rim brakes.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

my wife just did the Whistler fondo again. heavy rain two years in a row. last year with rim brakes .. ahem without any brakes on the downhills. This year with disc brakes and perfect braking on the downhills. it's a win. 

I did that fondo last year with rim brakes. chose not to do it this year due to the horrible experience riding in rain, with no brakes. Though it was nowhere near as hair raising as descending Alpe dHuez in a heavy rain thunderstorm with half a million other people, and rim non-brakes. It's an infrequent enough occurrence I am riding down mountains in driving rain, that rim brakes will suffice. But sometimes, not.


----------



## Fajita Dave

xxl said:


> Since we're so close to thirty pages, and I'm not sure anyone has actually weighed in on the topic, let me ask:
> 
> How do you like your disc brakes?
> 
> Do you notice differences/prefer one set of discs to the other?
> 
> Do you have any rim brake bikes? How much do they suck/how awesome (pick one) are they?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


4 mountain bikes - three hydro disc and one mechanical
4 road bikes - three rim brake and one hydro disc

The mechanical disc brakes were good but certainly lacked power. On the other hand they were stupid easy to setup and adjust just like rim brakes.

One bike had Avid Elixir brakes which were an absolute headache even from being brand new. They had plenty of power but they squealed constantly, inconsistent lever feel and after only 400 miles the caliper seals started leaking. They were trashed immediately and replaced with Shimano's cheapest hydro brakes for $50 which was a massive improvement.

Latest two mountain bikes have had the same set of Shimano XT brakes which have been basically maintenance free for over 2,500 miles and the performance is stellar. Have always been quiet (unless wet) and I've only had to bleed them twice. The first bleed was only done since I was replacing brake pads anyway. The second bleed I did to fix a sticky piston on the rear caliper. I did have the rotors get coated with ice once while riding in snow at 5 degrees F. Braking was almost non existent at first but the thin layer or ice melted pretty quick and braking was back to normal. The brakes froze during a 1 hour climb.

My first road bike was a 1980's Schwinn World Sport that I got for free 4 years ago which got me into road cycling. Not going to bother commenting on the braking performance of that bike.

Next bike was a Fuji SST with Tektro calipers. Braking performance was OK under most situations but hard braking into a sharp downhill corners created some weird vibrating issues through the fork. I'm thinking it was the flexy calipers binding up and unloading under high demand. Wet braking performance was fine but inconsistent. Sometimes it would be good, other times you had to wait a few seconds. After rain rides the rims were coated in gray crap that I felt the need to clean off. I've used the bike in 4 inch deep snow and had absolutely no brakes what so ever no matter how hard the lever was pulled and it never got better.

Next two bikes were just bought earlier this year. 2018 Fuji Transonic with R8000 rim brakes and a 2018 Fuji SL with R8020 disc brakes (for my wife). I've ridden both bikes in mountainous terrain and in torrential downpours. The dry braking on the Transonic with direct mount rim calipers was excellent when new but had faded quite a bit after 1,100 miles despite being clean. In heavy rain braking is more of a vague suggestion. The rims are also coated in gray crap that I need to clean off after a wet ride.

On the SL with disc brakes there is a very negligible difference in performance between dry and soaking wet. When wet they will squeal from time to time, mostly with the initial pull of the brakes. Also like my mountain bike brakes I have never needed to clean the rotors from normal use like I do with rim brakes. They have about 800 miles on them now and have been trouble free. Based on current wear I'm expecting the pads to last for 1,500 to 2,000 miles_. _I haven't had to bleed them yet, still feel the same as they did on the first ride.

I have seen no statistically significant difference in speed between the two when I ride them. My next road bike a few years from now will no doubt have disc brakes. Until then my wife loves her SL with disc and I love my mountain bikes with disc.


----------



## Coolhand

xxl said:


> Since we're so close to thirty pages, and I'm not sure anyone has actually weighed in on the topic, let me ask:
> 
> How do you like your disc brakes?
> 
> Do you notice differences/prefer one set of discs to the other?
> 
> Do you have any rim brake bikes? How much do they suck/how awesome (pick one) are they?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


I like them bigly. I had an older Trek Boone with the Shimano hydraulic discs- it was my gravel mountains bike. Lots of steep descents and long gravel descents in bad weather that the canti-brakes I had been using before didn't work well enough. Sold that bike (Boone) as part of the early summer massive sell-off to buy my new Madone Disc.

so Bike 1: Madone Disc SLR 9- sold a *bunch* of stuff to afford this one. Replaced an older Madone with Ultegra Di2 retrofitted (I think this frame is still available as the low level Madone now). I run deep aero carbon clincher wheels, so the two biggest flaws were (1) poor braking on big long downhills and _terrible_ braking in the wet, which were real issues for some of the races I do, and (2) annoying wheel rub against the brake pads on hard efforts (major pet peeve). Otherwise the older Madone was aero race bike perfection. The Madone Disc eliminated both major flaws of the last bike. And I got a couple of nice improvements- the aero road bars can now be tinted up at the hoods, the shape doesn't tap my thighs out of the saddle anymore, and the new XXX aero wheels are less susceptible to cross winds. Through-axle design helps with wheel interface stiffness as well. It's a superb bike if you like to go fast, and the ISOspeed + carbon wheels makes it the most comfortable aero bike I have ridden. Downsides: its quite expensive. The new SLR7 Disc version may be the sweet spot, 

Bike 2: Domane Disc SLR7: I had a gravel event come up in November, and was going to apply some store credit from selling a mountain bike to get an affordable Trek Checkpoint with Ultegra mechanical and discs, but it lacked a few things I wanted, and one thing lead to another and I sort of fell in love with this bike, and so much for my budget. The bike is baller though. This bike is playing the Boone role of gravel and steep mountains- including sharp descents, gravel descents, and bad weather- often at the same time in timed events. Proper Shimano hydro discs on my Boone allowed me to immediately set PRs over my very expensive custom bike with cantis. No going back for me.

But as you can see, I am sort of the best use case for hydraulic disc brakes and road bikes. Also the worst case scenario for impulse control and new bikes. . . .


----------



## xxl

Coolhand said:


> I like them bigly. I had an older Trek Boone with the Shimano hydraulic discs- it was my gravel mountains bike. Lots of steep descents and long gravel descents in bad weather that the canti-brakes I had been using before didn't work well enough. Sold that bike (Boone) as part of the early summer massive sell-off to buy my new Madone Disc.
> 
> so Bike 1: Madone Disc SLR 9- sold a *bunch* of stuff to afford this one. Replaced an older Madone with Ultegra Di2 retrofitted (I think this frame is still available as the low level Madone now). I run deep aero carbon clincher wheels, so the two biggest flaws were (1) poor braking on big long downhills and _terrible_ braking in the wet, which were real issues for some of the races I do, and (2) annoying wheel rub against the brake pads on hard efforts (major pet peeve). Otherwise the older Madone was aero race bike perfection. The Madone Disc eliminated both major flaws of the last bike. And I got a couple of nice improvements- the aero road bars can now be tinted up at the hoods, the shape doesn't tap my thighs out of the saddle anymore, and the new XXX aero wheels are less susceptible to cross winds. Through-axle design helps with wheel interface stiffness as well. It's a superb bike if you like to go fast, and the ISOspeed + carbon wheels makes it the most comfortable aero bike I have ridden. Downsides: its quite expensive. The new SLR7 Disc version may be the sweet spot,
> 
> Bike 2: Domane Disc SLR7: I had a gravel event come up in November, and was going to apply some store credit from selling a mountain bike to get an affordable Trek Checkpoint with Ultegra mechanical and discs, but it lacked a few things I wanted, and one thing lead to another and I sort of fell in love with this bike, and so much for my budget. The bike is baller though. This bike is playing the Boone role of gravel and steep mountains- including sharp descents, gravel descents, and bad weather- often at the same time in timed events. Proper Shimano hydro discs on my Boone allowed me to immediately set PRs over my very expensive custom bike with cantis. No going back for me.
> 
> But as you can see, I am sort of the best use case for hydraulic disc brakes and road bikes. Also the worst case scenario for impulse control and new bikes. . . .


Shucks, looking at the price tags for those rides stopped me quicker than _any_ braking system. 

(Not to judge, though; they look like mighty sweet rides).

Srsly, thanks for you and the OPs who weighed in. My takeaway was that if I were to go disc, it should be hydraulic.

I don't race, and I don't ride in nearly the same conditions (mostly on pavement with a_ lot _of short-but-steep hills, occasionally on gravel, but relatively level gravel, and dry if I can help it). I'm thinking that my next bike might be to replace an ancient Cinelli "ATB" I use for the (very) occasional woodland rides I do.

Now, one more bit of advice: What's the fastest bike for escaping a spouse who might find out that one spent a couple hundred bucks on her for her birthday, but twelve large for a bicycle for oneself?


----------



## Coolhand

xxl said:


> Shucks, looking at the price tags for those rides stopped me quicker than _any_ braking system.
> 
> (Not to judge, though; they look like mighty sweet rides).
> 
> Srsly, thanks for you and the OPs who weighed in. My takeaway was that if I were to go disc, it should be hydraulic.
> 
> I don't race, and I don't ride in nearly the same conditions (mostly on pavement with a_ lot _of short-but-steep hills, occasionally on gravel, but relatively level gravel, and dry if I can help it). I'm thinking that my next bike might be to replace an ancient Cinelli "ATB" I use for the (very) occasional woodland rides I do.
> 
> Now, one more bit of advice: What's the fastest bike for escaping a spouse who might find out that one spent a couple hundred bucks on her for her birthday, but twelve large for a bicycle for oneself?


Trek Travel vacation to Provence.


----------



## Lombard

xxl said:


> Srsly, thanks for you and the OPs who weighed in. My takeaway was that if I were to go disc, it should be hydraulic.


OK, seriously this time.

If you're going to get discs, definitely get hydraulic. My Jamis Renegade Exploit gravel bike has Shimano 105 with Ice Tech rotors. The modulation and braking is awesome. Word of warning, if you remove either of the wheels, be sure you have a way of preventing the brake lever from being pulled while the wheel is out. Otherwise, you will need to spread the calipers and set up the brakes again.

I once rode a bike with cable discs and did not like the way they felt. They were grabby.

My takeaway is that disc brakes have a nicer feel than rim brakes, but aren't really necessary unless you will be doing a lot of wet weather rides. The rim brakes on my newest road bike (6800) have better stopping power and modulation than an older bike with cheaper Cane Creek rim brakes.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Lombard said:


> Word of warning, if you remove either of the wheels, be sure you have a way of preventing the brake lever from being pulled while the wheel is out. Otherwise, you will need to spread the calipers and set up the brakes again.
> 
> .


There is some truth to this but the way to prevent the brake levers from being operated while the wheels are off is to keep toddlers from playing with your bike when the wheels are off. Further, even if they do it enough times to be a problem, after inserting a putty knife to spread the pads, no setup is required. They are self adjusting and you simply need to pull the lever a couple of times to make them self adjust.


In the end, you are unlikely to ever have brakes that require less hassle than hydraulic discs. When combined with di2, you will have eliminated the biggest ongoing maintenance problems of the past--cables and housings. 


The caveat can be that for some reason, some folks have issues with brake squeal and we still have much to learn about its' elimination. I have rarely experienced this problem but know of one mechanically adept rider who has struggled with this problem and has tried a number of solutions with limited success.


----------



## tlg

Lombard said:


> . Word of warning, if you remove either of the wheels, be sure you have a way of preventing the brake lever from being pulled while the wheel is out. Otherwise, you will need to spread the calipers and set up the brakes again.


Or worse... your pistons will pop out dispensing oil all over the floor. Don't ask me how I know. 

Instead of finding a way to prevent pulling the lever, just use the supplied pad spacers.


----------



## tlg

SwiftSolo said:


> The caveat can be that for some reason, some folks have issues with brake squeal and we still have much to learn about its' elimination. I have rarely experienced this problem but know of one mechanically adept rider who has struggled with this problem and has tried a number of solutions with limited success.


I think some people have a habit of touching their rotors with dirty fingers. 
Or messy putting on chain lube and getting it on rotors.


----------



## Lombard

SwiftSolo said:


> There is some truth to this but the way to prevent the brake levers from being operated while the wheels are off is to keep toddlers from playing with your bike when the wheels are off.


Levers can be inadvertently pulled when loading/unloading the bike inside the car. No toddlers present.


----------



## factory feel

tlg said:


> Instead of finding a way to prevent pulling the lever, just use the supplied pad spacers.


This is The correct answer!

Not bragging, I have a lot of experience with many hydro disc mtb brake manufacturers over the years and tlg is spot on.


----------



## eriku16

SwiftSolo said:


> In the end, you are unlikely to ever have brakes that require less hassle than hydraulic discs. When combined with di2, you will have eliminated the biggest ongoing maintenance problems of the past--cables and housings.


Nope, you are just trading some minor issues for more, potentially worse ones. Some of which can sideline your ride for an hour, day or weeks.


----------



## Fajita Dave

eriku16 said:


> Nope, you are just trading some minor issues for more, potentially worse ones. Some of which can sideline your ride for an hour, day or weeks.


You haven't had a hydro disc brake bike within the last 6 years have you?


----------



## SwiftSolo

eriku16 said:


> Nope, you are just trading some minor issues for more, potentially worse ones. Some of which can sideline your ride for an hour, day or weeks.


Cute!
I've been on shimano hydraulic discs since early 2014 and have had zero problems and they've never been bled. I live for mountain descents with sharp steep hairpins and try to ride them as often as possible.

Other than several sets of pads and three sets of discs, I've had zero maintenance to contend with.

You'll have to find someone else to sell this nonsense. You know, someone with zero experience and zero mechanical ability


----------



## SwiftSolo

Fajita Dave said:


> You haven't had a hydro disc brake bike within the last 6 years have you?


If you read his posts, you'll find he gained his wisdom about road bike hydraulic discs 65 years ago (the previous time those bass turd manufacturers apparently tried to force them on the public). 

He learned his lesson and is not about to be screwed a second time!


----------



## xxl

SwiftSolo said:


> ...
> 
> Other than several sets of pads and three sets of discs, I've had zero maintenance to contend with....


"Other than that, what'd you think of the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"


----------



## factory feel

The question isn't "_are disc brakes a pain to maintain?_".

It is "DO WE NEED THEM ON TYPICAL ROAD BIKES?"


----------



## Fajita Dave

factory feel said:


> The question isn't "_are disc brakes a pain to maintain?_".
> 
> It is "DO WE NEED THEM ON TYPICAL ROAD BIKES?"


That question is like asking do we need carbon frames? Do we need Ti frames? Do we need drop bars? Do we need tubular wheels? Do we need deep rims? Do we need clip pedals? Do we need tubeless clinchers? Do we need electronic shifting?

The answer is no, we don't need any of that. Are they all nice to have? Yes.


----------



## Fredrico

SwiftSolo said:


> Cute!
> I've been on shimano hydraulic discs since early 2014 and have had zero problems and they've never been bled. I live for mountain descents with sharp steep hairpins and try to ride them as often as possible.
> 
> Other than several sets of pads and three sets of discs, I've had zero maintenance to contend with.
> 
> You'll have to find someone else to sell this nonsense. You know, someone with zero experience and zero mechanical ability


I've been riding on cables set up in the mid-80s, 130,000 miles on two sets of caliper brakes. Never had to replace the cables or housing, only the pads. Zero maintence. slide the worn pads out of their alloy holders, pop the new ones in, adjust clearance with the nut at the end of the cable, and go. :thumbsup: 

The caliper bushings should be worn out by now, but I hardly ever brake.

I've only had to replace rims worn out from braking 4 times. Do yer discs last that long? So rim brakes gotcha beat, there. 

No batteries required, either. Those derailleur servos must suck up the milliamps something terrible. :nono: My fingers work really great.


----------



## vic bastige

Fredrico said:


> I've been riding on cables set up in the mid-80s, 130,000 miles on two sets of caliper brakes. Never had to replace the cables or housing, only the pads. Zero maintence. slide the worn pads out of their alloy holders, pop the new ones in, adjust clearance with the nut at the end of the cable, and go. :thumbsup:
> 
> The caliper bushings should be worn out by now, but I hardly ever brake.
> 
> I've only had to replace rims worn out from braking 4 times. Do yer discs last that long? So rim brakes gotcha beat, there.
> 
> No batteries required, either. Those derailleur servos must suck up the milliamps something terrible. :nono: My fingers work really great.



...he "lives for mountain decent" where as you "hardly ever brake". Wouldn't that make for a null hypothesis when comparing your experience to his?


----------



## tlg

vic bastige said:


> ...he "lives for mountain decent" where as you "hardly ever brake". Wouldn't that make for a null hypothesis when comparing your experience to his?


Oh yea? When I was a kid I walked 130,000 mi to school, up hill, both ways, in the snow. With the same pair of sandals.


----------



## Lombard

Fajita Dave said:


> That question is like asking do we need carbon frames? Do we need Ti frames? Do we need drop bars? Do we need tubular wheels? Do we need deep rims? Do we need clip pedals? Do we need tubeless clinchers? Do we need electronic shifting?
> 
> The answer is no, we don't need any of that. Are they all nice to have? Yes.


^^^This.^^^


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> I've only had to replace rims worn out from braking 4 times. Do yer discs last that long? So rim brakes gotcha beat, there.


But disc brakes don't wear down rims at all. So how do rim brakes have discs beat there? :idea:


----------



## Lombard

tlg said:


> Oh yea? When I was a kid I walked 130,000 mi to school, up hill, both ways, in the snow. With the same pair of sandals.


Sandals?? When I was a kid, we couldn't afford sandals!


----------



## Coolhand

Lombard said:


> Sandals?? When I was a kid, we couldn't afford sandals!


Look at mr. fancy man who got to walk barefoot to a real school. We worked 17 hours in the fields and then had to write our own textbooks.


----------



## SPlKE

SwiftSolo said:


> In the end, you are unlikely to ever have brakes that require less hassle than hydraulic discs. When combined with di2, you will have eliminated the biggest ongoing maintenance problems of the past--cables and housings.


You must have bought some really really awful cables and housings. 

I've been riding a lot since 1960. Never once had a problem with cables or housings. Even including the crappy cables and housings on my 1965 Schwinn Collegiate, which I bought new... and rode as a proto-MTB in the early 80s... until I bought a real MTB, 1986 Shogun Prairie Breaker Pro... which still has the original Deore XT cables and housings after countless miles on wet, muddy rocky, technical single track riding.

I've got 99 problems, but cables and housings ain't one of em.


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> But disc brakes don't wear down rims at all. So how do rim brakes have discs beat there? :idea:


You replace the disc or replace the rim. My rims have always lasted a long time, 30,000-40,000 miles. I would be interested how long discs last, as Swift says he changes them out a lot. Discs wear quite a bit faster than rims is what I'm getting at. By the time an alloy rim starts to split on the brake tracks, the rim is ready to be replaced anyway. So discs would just be one more thing to worry about, another negative trade off.  

A minor issue. Discs are pretty cheap, and yes, the rims would last longer not serving as the brake also.


----------



## Bremerradkurier

Fredrico said:


> You replace the disc or replace the rim. My rims have always lasted a long time, 30,000-40,000 miles. I would be interested how long discs last, as Swift says he changes them out a lot. Discs wear quite a bit faster than rims is what I'm getting at. By the time an alloy rim starts to split on the brake tracks, the rim is ready to be replaced anyway. So discs would just be one more thing to worry about, another negative trade off.
> 
> A minor issue. Discs are pretty cheap, and yes, the rims would last longer not serving as the brake also.


Assuming you can't spread brake pads against their pistons and remove/reattach either a lockring or six Torx screws, labor costs to install a new disk are going to be quite a bit less than replacing a rim.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Fredrico said:


> You replace the disc or replace the rim. My rims have always lasted a long time, 30,000-40,000 miles. I would be interested how long discs last, as Swift says he changes them out a lot. Discs wear quite a bit faster than rims is what I'm getting at. By the time an alloy rim starts to split on the brake tracks, the rim is ready to be replaced anyway. So discs would just be one more thing to worry about, another negative trade off.
> 
> A minor issue. Discs are pretty cheap, and yes, the rims would last longer not serving as the brake also.


Rims with rim brakes will last a long time for flat landers. People who ride in snow melt grit on long twisting descents--not so much.


It takes me about 5 minutes a wheel to change discs and I've done it 3 times in 5 seasons. The cost for both rotors is about the price of a tire (and I change those whenever I'm headed on a long biking vacation). Much of the time they were not worn out but I changed them because I was headed for the Dolomites or Santa Ynez (Figueroa Mountain) and wanted to be certain that everything was in top condition. In the scheme of things it is very cheap insurance and peace of mind. 

Does a new set of your style of wheels cost more than a tire? I can buy 30 sets of rotors for one set of mine.


----------



## Fredrico

Bremerradkurier said:


> Assuming you can't spread brake pads against their pistons and remove/reattach either a lockring or six Torx screws, labor costs to install a new disk are going to be quite a bit less than replacing a rim.


True, but I only had to do it once every 8 years, and it took up 2 hours on a rainy Sunday afternoon. Big deal.

Swift, I paid around $45 for a replacement rim. How many discs add up to $45? That's a one time cost every 8 years. Can you beat that?


----------



## xxl

Coolhand said:


> Look at mr. fancy man who got to walk barefoot to a real school. We worked 17 hours in the fields and then had to write our own textbooks.


You knew it was coming:

<div style="position:relative;height:0;padding-bottom:56.21%">



</div>


----------



## Fajita Dave

Fredrico said:


> True, but I only had to do it once every 8 years, and it took up 2 hours on a rainy Sunday afternoon. Big deal.
> 
> Swift, I paid around $45 for a replacement rim. How many discs add up to $45? That's a one time cost every 8 years. Can you beat that?


Depends on what discs someone uses. Some have an extremely hard surface intended for sintered brake pads. If you use these discs with resin pads I have a very hard time seeing the discs ever wearing out.

Unlike rim brakes you can pick and choose what you find important just like we can with tires. Either way any price difference with maintenance there might be is so small it would be impossible to accurately quantify. Only cost is the up front price of the bike.


----------



## Bremerradkurier

Fredrico said:


> True, but I only had to do it once every 8 years, and it took up 2 hours on a rainy Sunday afternoon. Big deal.
> 
> Swift, I paid around $45 for a replacement rim. How many discs add up to $45? That's a one time cost every 8 years. Can you beat that?


No replacement spokes for your rim rebuild?

How cheap are you willing to go wrt 1-2 piece components sourced from Chinese resellers all the way down?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pc-Brand-New-AVID-G3CS-G3-Brake-Rotors-140-160-180-203mm-Disc-Bicycle-Disc-Brake/32820806811.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.11.7ddf1738XWJS38&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10065_10068_10130_10547_10546_10059_10548_315_10545_10696_100031_5017617_531_10084_10083_10103_451_10618_452_10307_5017717,searchweb201603_2,ppcSwitch_2_ppcChannel&algo_expid=b1b54199-bf5a-4848-b8ea-d63e0a620ca2-1&algo_pvid=b1b54199-bf5a-4848-b8ea-d63e0a620ca2&priceBeautifyAB=0

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/ZTTO-MTB-Mountain-Bike-Bicycle-Parts-Semi-metallic-Brake-Pads-For-SHIMANO-M-416-447-446/32757574475.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.66.23f76e67IxOyBh&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10065_10068_10130_10547_10546_10059_10548_315_10545_10696_100031_5017617_531_10084_10083_10103_451_10618_452_10307_5017717,searchweb201603_2,ppcSwitch_2_ppcChannel&algo_expid=f84597ca-b03a-4a47-a4ae-c2eed9d2faa5-8&algo_pvid=f84597ca-b03a-4a47-a4ae-c2eed9d2faa5&priceBeautifyAB=0


----------



## Lombard

We made it over 750 posts! Goal is 800 before end of Sept. Com'on everyone, even without 11spd, we can do it! :thumbsup:


----------



## SwiftSolo

Fredrico said:


> True, but I only had to do it once every 8 years, and it took up 2 hours on a rainy Sunday afternoon. Big deal.
> 
> Swift, I paid around $45 for a replacement rim. How many discs add up to $45? That's a one time cost every 8 years. Can you beat that?


So your time is worth nothing?
Most of us don't have the desire to ride on $45 rims and usually won't spend the time to lace a new rim with old spokes and hubs. But then, most of us feel our time is worth something, especially when it makes our bike inoperative until we get that "rainy day". Here in western Washington, that could have been 60 days this summer


----------



## tlg

Lombard said:


> We made it over 750 posts! Goal is 800 before end of Sept. Com'on everyone, even without 11spd, we can do it! :thumbsup:


We've established Disc's are infinitely superior to rim. What else could there be to discuss?


----------



## Lombard

tlg said:


> We've established Disc's are infinitely superior to rim. What else could there be to discuss?


How much infinitely and bigly superior they are?


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> How much infinitely and bigly superior they are?


Bah humbug. Rims provide the ultimate disc. They're huge compared to wimpy discs, so there's much more surface to take the heat. They say heat can blow a tire off the rim. Well heat also is known for melting bearing grease and drying out hubs, whatever that's worth; and goodbye quick release wheels, nice when you're changing a flat on the run or loading the bike in the car.

I want my bikes to be simple and straight forward, not complicated. Different strokes for different folks. Nothing wrong with electronic shifting, hydraulic disc brakes, carbon frames, if that's what rings your bells. I like my old 20th century technology. I hate being dependent sooner or later on batteries. It goes against bicycle being a fully manual instrument, like the rider himself. 

Its one thing in life one can fully live in the moment. Electronics assist may get your bike to function like your i phone, but its cheating the man-machine interface. It has opened the door to further decadence, like e bikes. They ain't pure, boys. :nono: Those are for dilettantes, wimps. Electronics are corrupting the sport. Entirely understandable. Consumers want their bikes and cars to work like their computers. That's what they feel comfortable with.


----------



## ogre

Lombard said:


> How much infinitely and bigly superior they are?


Times elventy


----------



## SwiftSolo

Fredrico said:


> Bah humbug. Rims provide the ultimate disc. They're huge compared to wimpy discs, so there's much more surface to take the heat. They say heat can blow a tire off the rim. Well heat also is known for melting bearing grease and drying out hubs, whatever that's worth; and goodbye quick release wheels, nice when you're changing a flat on the run or loading the bike in the car.
> 
> I want my bikes to be simple and straight forward, not complicated. Different strokes for different folks. Nothing wrong with electronic shifting, hydraulic disc brakes, carbon frames, if that's what rings your bells. I like my old 20th century technology. I hate being dependent sooner or later on batteries. It goes against bicycle being a fully manual instrument, like the rider himself.
> 
> Its one thing in life one can fully live in the moment. Electronics assist may get your bike to function like your i phone, but its cheating the man-machine interface. It has opened the door to further decadence, like e bikes. They ain't pure, boys. :nono: Those are for dilettantes, wimps. Electronics are corrupting the sport. Entirely understandable. Consumers want their bikes and cars to work like their computers. That's what they feel comfortable with.


Are non- virgins in other than white skirts allowed to ride these bikes you prefer?


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> Nothing wrong with electronic shifting, hydraulic disc brakes, carbon frames, if that's what rings your bells. I like my old 20th century technology. I hate being dependent sooner or later on batteries.


I will definitely agree with you on e-shifting. If I forget to charge the batteries on my lights, I have no lights. Not really a crisis unless I regularly ride at night. But if I forget to charge the battery on a Di2, it will be a really rough ride home.

As far as e-bikes and e-assist bikes, they're not for me. However, did it ever occur to you that someone who is disabled or just not very strong might want to enjoy the pleasure of riding like the rest of us?


----------



## Coolhand

We could discuss the concurrent through-axle revolution as well.


----------



## xxl

Fredrico said:


> Bah humbug. Rims provide the ultimate disc. They're huge compared to wimpy discs, so there's much more surface to take the heat. They say heat can blow a tire off the rim. Well heat also is known for melting bearing grease and drying out hubs, whatever that's worth; and goodbye quick release wheels, nice when you're changing a flat on the run or loading the bike in the car.
> 
> I want my bikes to be simple and straight forward, not complicated. Different strokes for different folks. Nothing wrong with electronic shifting, hydraulic disc brakes, carbon frames, if that's what rings your bells. I like my old 20th century technology. I hate being dependent sooner or later on batteries. It goes against bicycle being a fully manual instrument, like the rider himself.
> 
> Its one thing in life one can fully live in the moment. Electronics assist may get your bike to function like your i phone, but its cheating the man-machine interface. It has opened the door to further decadence, like e bikes. They ain't pure, boys. :nono: Those are for dilettantes, wimps. Electronics are corrupting the sport. Entirely understandable. Consumers want their bikes and cars to work like their computers. That's what they feel comfortable with.


----------



## SPlKE

Fredrico said:


> Bah humbug. Rims provide the ultimate disc. They're huge compared to wimpy discs, so there's much more surface to take the heat.


+1000

Fred, you and I are the last two sane men on Earth.


----------



## Fajita Dave

Fredrico said:


> Bah humbug. Rims provide the ultimate disc. They're huge compared to wimpy discs, so there's much more surface to take the heat. They say heat can blow a tire off the rim. Well heat also is known for melting bearing grease and drying out hubs, whatever that's worth; and goodbye quick release wheels, nice when you're changing a flat on the run or loading the bike in the car.
> 
> I want my bikes to be simple and straight forward, not complicated. Different strokes for different folks. Nothing wrong with electronic shifting, hydraulic disc brakes, carbon frames, if that's what rings your bells. I like my old 20th century technology. I hate being dependent sooner or later on batteries. It goes against bicycle being a fully manual instrument, like the rider himself.
> 
> Its one thing in life one can fully live in the moment. Electronics assist may get your bike to function like your i phone, but its cheating the man-machine interface. It has opened the door to further decadence, like e bikes. They ain't pure, boys. :nono: Those are for dilettantes, wimps. Electronics are corrupting the sport. Entirely understandable. Consumers want their bikes and cars to work like their computers. That's what they feel comfortable with.


I agree with a lot of this actually but would like to point out hydraulic brakes are not an electronic device. So it isn't violating the purity of a mechanical bicycle.

Bottom line for me is bicycles are a technology to improve human mobility. It's only natural for new technology to be applied to make improvements in any way possible. Hydraulic brakes are an improvement in braking. I wore out an aluminum rim in 4,800 miles by riding through winter salt and sand in wet conditions on mountainous terrain. "Wimpy" discs don't have this problem and they have more power and consistency in all conditions.

As for e-bikes I think it's important to make the distinction that they are not bicycles. They are simply e-bikes. Taking the most efficient machine mankind has ever made and putting a small motor on it to assist the rider makes perfect sense for commuting and a relaxed form of recreation. Imagine a city full of people freely riding around on e-bikes instead of being in total gridlock full of cars and gas fumes.


----------



## SwiftSolo

xxl said:


>


Spoken with the wisdom of a track racer who only knew how to turn left. Must have been a lib.


----------



## xxl

SwiftSolo said:


> Spoken with the wisdom of a track racer who only knew how to turn left. Must have been a lib.


Spoken with the wisdom of the clueless; Henri Desgrange was also the founder of the Audax movement, where right turns are quite common, as well as the Tour de France he's known for (and where turns of all sorts are found).

He also knew how to HTFU:

"'Henri Desgrange... imposed on himself a life of submitting himself to daily physical exercises. They had to demand, according to his draconian theories, a violent effort, prolonged, repeated, sometimes going as far as pain, demanding tenacity and even a certain stoicism. He took on a crusade against Original Inertia, against the softening of the body in the face of a society keen to suppress physical effort. He appointed himself the apostle of the fight to safeguard character. Suffer and sweat! And that meant a permanent individual culture of cross-country, at least three times a week, in the parc de St-Cloud. Nor did he hold back: he ran for at least an hour, never missing out Jardies hill, the fierce slope in the centre of the park used by hardened runners.'"

And was something of a patriot who walked the walk:

"Desgrange created a committee for physical education at the start of the first world war and trained several thousand soldiers to prepare them for the Front. Despite his age - he was already more than 50 - Desgrange then enrolled as a soldier himself. He presented himself at an assembly centre at Autan, distinctive for his grey hair and the Légion d'honneur pinned to his chest, and went to war as a _poilu_, an ordinary soldier. He won the Croix de guerre in combat and continued to write for _L'Auto_ but under the name 'Desgrenier.'"

So yeah, must've been a lib. :thumbsup:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Desgrange


----------



## factory feel

Lombard said:


> But if I forget to charge the battery on a Di2, it will be a really rough ride home.


The problem with you making claims of things you are clueless about is that it could cause someone who mistakenly thinks you do have a clue to make a misinformed decision.

For those that care, the single Di2 battery that controls the entire system is very reliable and will stay charged for many many shifts and even has an indicator that lets you know it's gonna need a charge soon.

Unless you're a moron the battery will not be a problem and you'll like that aspect of Shimano Di2.


----------



## Lombard

factory feel said:


> The problem with you making claims of things you are clueless about is that it could cause someone who mistakenly thinks you do have a clue to make a misinformed decision.
> 
> For those that care, the single Di2 battery that controls the entire system is very reliable and will stay charged for many many shifts and even has an indicator that lets you know it's gonna need a charge soon.
> 
> Unless you're a moron the battery will not be a problem and you'll like that aspect of Shimano Di2.


As usual, you are trolling just to be controversial with words like "clueless" and "moron". Typical of you, Factory Feel.

I can tell you that I have been on at least 4 rides where a Di2 user's system malfunctioned. 3 were battery issues where the battery ran down after only a couple of rides. In each case, the rider claimed the battery was fully charged and were told it should last a whole season. Now I wasn't there to see their battery fully charged in the charger. I had to take their word for it. So anecdotal, yes. Of course the little indicator should have tipped them off if they were looking for it. My guess is since they weren't expecting the battery to die so soon, they weren't checking. So you could possibly say user error. But that doesn't explain why a brand new battery didn't last for more rides.


----------



## factory feel

Lombard said:


> As usual, you are trolling just to be controversial with words like "clueless" and "moron". Typical of you, Factory Feel.
> 
> I can tell you that I have been on at least 4 rides where a Di2 user's system malfunctioned. 3 were battery issues where the battery ran down after only a couple of rides. In each case, the rider claimed the battery was fully charged and were told it should last a whole season. Now I wasn't there to see their battery fully charged in the charger. I had to take their word for it. So anecdotal, yes. Of course the little indicator should have tipped them off if they were looking for it. My guess is since they weren't expecting the battery to die so soon, they weren't checking. So you could possibly say user error. But that doesn't explain why a brand new battery didn't last for more rides.


That must be one heck of a crew you ride with!


----------



## SwiftSolo

Lombard said:


> As usual, you are trolling just to be controversial with words like "clueless" and "moron". Typical of you, Factory Feel.
> 
> I can tell you that I have been on at least 4 rides where a Di2 user's system malfunctioned. 3 were battery issues where the battery ran down after only a couple of rides. In each case, the rider claimed the battery was fully charged and were told it should last a whole season. Now I wasn't there to see their battery fully charged in the charger. I had to take their word for it. So anecdotal, yes. Of course the little indicator should have tipped them off if they were looking for it. My guess is since they weren't expecting the battery to die so soon, they weren't checking. So you could possibly say user error. But that doesn't explain why a brand new battery didn't last for more rides.


I think your post would be even more credible if 100 batteries had gone dead while you were riding with these folks.

To help you along, when a di2 battery gets low, the front derailleur stops shifting while the rear continues to operate for quite some time. It is true, that someone could cut the wire to a derailleur and short it out against the frame and the battery might go dead instantly. Could it be that your friends liked seeing sparks?


----------



## SPlKE

About batteries, brohams, the Di2 uses lithium ion battery. The quality of brand new same-spec batteries varies, depending on a few factors. 

Regardless of which consumer products' "official" brand label is on the battery, there are various sources for these batteries, mostly in Asia, and some that are really bad... won't completely charge, won't hold a charge, loses power capacity after too few charging cycles, bursts into flames, etc.

And even when they're top notch batteries, they're sensitive to heat and cold. Too much heat, and the battery can be ruined, especially if charging while hot, more than normal human body temperature. Too cold and they put out less power.

Given pretty much equal conditions, one rider's Di2 battery might function very differently than another rider's Di2 battery on the same ride.


----------



## factory feel

SPlKE said:


> About batteries, brohams, the Di2 uses lithium ion battery. The quality of brand new same-spec batteries varies, depending on a few factors.
> 
> Regardless of which consumer products' "official" brand label is on the battery, there are various sources for these batteries, mostly in Asia, and some that are really bad... won't completely charge, won't hold a charge, loses power capacity after too few charging cycles, bursts into flames, etc.
> 
> And even when they're top notch batteries, they're sensitive to heat and cold. Too much heat, and the battery can be ruined, especially if charging while hot, more than normal human body temperature. Too cold and they put out less power.
> 
> Given pretty much equal conditions, one rider's Di2 battery might function very differently than another rider's Di2 battery on the same ride.


Source?


----------



## xxl

SPlKE said:


> About batteries, brohams, the Di2 uses lithium ion battery. The quality of brand new same-spec batteries varies, depending on a few factors.
> 
> Regardless of which consumer products' "official" brand label is on the battery, there are various sources for these batteries, mostly in Asia, and some that are really bad... won't completely charge, won't hold a charge, loses power capacity after too few charging cycles, bursts into flames, etc.
> 
> And even when they're top notch batteries, they're sensitive to heat and cold. Too much heat, and the battery can be ruined, especially if charging while hot, more than normal human body temperature. Too cold and they put out less power.
> 
> Given pretty much equal conditions, one rider's Di2 battery might function very differently than another rider's Di2 battery on the same ride.


^This. A friend of mine works for a large battery manufacturer, and says the same thing.


----------



## factory feel

xxl said:


> ^This. A friend of mine works for a large battery manufacturer, and says the same thing.


specifically Di2 batteries?

if so can you have you're friend log in here to verify?


----------



## xxl

factory feel said:


> specifically Di2 batteries?
> 
> if so can you have you're friend log in here to verify?


Specifically li-on batteries that have been sourced from several manufacturers.

Like the ones found in Di2 units.

Consistency of quality for li-on batteries has been spotty across a number of applications, from cars (Tesla) to bicycle lights (Magic Shine). 

If you have some proof that Shimano Di2 batteries are immune to this problem, please post.

You'll have to take my word for it, as my friend doesn't suffer online trollfests, sorry.


----------



## factory feel

xxl said:


> Specifically li-on batteries that have been sourced from several manufacturers.
> 
> Like the ones found in Di2 units.
> 
> Consistency of quality for li-on batteries has been spotty across a number of applications, from cars (Tesla) to bicycle lights (Magic Shine).
> 
> If you have some proof that Shimano Di2 batteries are immune to this problem, please post.
> 
> You'll have to take my word for it, as my friend doesn't suffer online trollfests, sorry.


You made an unsupported random statement that clearly defamed Shimano and you want *Me* to "*take Your word for it*?"

I think you make stuff up.


----------



## SPlKE

factory feel said:


> Source?


One of my regular tech reads. I'll dig up the article and post it here. I found this info during research when buying a new battery for my LG G5... there are lots of that exact battery from numerous manufacturers, even directly from LG.


----------



## xxl

factory feel said:


> You made an unsupported random statement that clearly defamed Shimano and you want *Me* to "*take Your word for it*?"
> 
> I think you make stuff up.



Let me know when you see one, and I'll tell you what you can do with it.

You should know that "random" doesn't mean what you think it does.

In the meantime, this might help: LMGTFY

Think what you will, doesn't cost you anything.


----------



## SPlKE

I just realized. I just got factory felt by factory feel.


----------



## xxl

SPlKE said:


> I just realized. I just got factory felt by factory feel.


And he never even bought you dinner.


----------



## SPlKE

xxl said:


> And he never even bought you dinner.


That's OK. I never bought his mom dinner either.


----------



## Lombard

SwiftSolo said:


> I think your post would be even more credible if 100 batteries had gone dead while you were riding with these folks.


Sorry Swifty, I don't usually ride with that many people.


----------



## SwiftSolo

xxl said:


> Spoken with the wisdom of the clueless; Henri Desgrange was also the founder of the Audax movement, where right turns are quite common, as well as the Tour de France he's known for (and where turns of all sorts are found).
> 
> He also knew how to HTFU:
> 
> "'Henri Desgrange... imposed on himself a life of submitting himself to daily physical exercises. They had to demand, according to his draconian theories, a violent effort, prolonged, repeated, sometimes going as far as pain, demanding tenacity and even a certain stoicism. He took on a crusade against Original Inertia, against the softening of the body in the face of a society keen to suppress physical effort. He appointed himself the apostle of the fight to safeguard character. Suffer and sweat! And that meant a permanent individual culture of cross-country, at least three times a week, in the parc de St-Cloud. Nor did he hold back: he ran for at least an hour, never missing out Jardies hill, the fierce slope in the centre of the park used by hardened runners.'"
> 
> And was something of a patriot who walked the walk:
> 
> "Desgrange created a committee for physical education at the start of the first world war and trained several thousand soldiers to prepare them for the Front. Despite his age - he was already more than 50 - Desgrange then enrolled as a soldier himself. He presented himself at an assembly centre at Autan, distinctive for his grey hair and the Légion d'honneur pinned to his chest, and went to war as a _poilu_, an ordinary soldier. He won the Croix de guerre in combat and continued to write for _L'Auto_ but under the name 'Desgrenier.'"
> 
> So yeah, must've been a lib. :thumbsup:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Desgrange


Yes, but did he have a sense of humor?


----------



## factory feel

SPlKE said:


> That's OK. I never bought his mom dinner either.


she enjoyed pegging you so call it even.


----------



## factory feel

xxl said:


> Let me know when you see one, and I'll tell you what you can do with it.
> 
> You should know that "random" doesn't mean what you think it does.
> 
> In the meantime, this might help: LMGTFY
> 
> Think what you will, doesn't cost you anything.


I knew you couldn't back it up.


----------



## Fajita Dave

factory feel said:


> Source?


It's pretty easy to find with a quick internet search. I used to race remote control cars which used Lithium Polymer for the higher energy density. Lithium Ion is more stable which makes them great for things like cell phones and a Di2 system. They are still senitive to a few different things that could ruin them.

You could get a bad cell from manufacturing, I had plenty with cheap Li-Po batteries. There could have been other factors that happened between being made and you receiving it as well. The most common issue would be letting the voltage drop below 3v per cell. Especially if it's stored discharged for an extended time it will degrade the cell's ability to charge to full capacity and it won't hold a charge even when not in use. Cold temperatures can drain the energy out of a Li-Ion cell pretty quick. So anyone storing their bike in a garage or shed during winter could be ruining their Di2/eTAP batteries.

Temps over 113 degrees F and over charging will also degrade a Li-Ion battery quick. Overcharging shouldn't be happening with the original charger though.


----------



## factory feel

Fajita Dave said:


> It's pretty easy to find with a quick internet search. I used to race remote control cars which used Lithium Polymer for the higher energy density. Lithium Ion is more stable which makes them great for things like cell phones and a Di2 system. They are still senitive to a few different things that could ruin them.
> 
> You could get a bad cell from manufacturing, I had plenty with cheap Li-Po batteries. There could have been other factors that happened between being made and you receiving it as well. The most common issue would be letting the voltage drop below 3v per cell. Especially if it's stored discharged for an extended time it will degrade the cell's ability to charge to full capacity and it won't hold a charge even when not in use. Cold temperatures can drain the energy out of a Li-Ion cell pretty quick. So anyone storing their bike in a garage or shed during winter could be ruining their Di2/eTAP batteries.
> 
> Temps over 113 degrees F and over charging will also degrade a Li-Ion battery quick. Overcharging shouldn't be happening with the original charger though.


I am specifically asking about the "big problem" with Shimano Di2 battery failures.


----------



## Finx

From the manual .




> The operating temperature ranges for the BT-DN110 battery are given below. Do not use the battery in temperatures outside these ranges. If the battery is used
> or stored in temperatures which are outside these ranges, fire, injury or problems with operation may occur.
> 
> 1. During discharge: –10°C - 50°C
> 2. During charging: 0°C - 45°C


----------



## Fajita Dave

factory feel said:


> I am specifically asking about the "big problem" with Shimano Di2 battery failures.


Spike didn't say there were any big problems with Di2 batteries. He just explained why some might not hold a charge compared to a battery in good condition.

Like he said, some Li-Ion manufactures turn out a lot of bad cells. With RC racing using 2 cell Li-Po batteries you had a 1 in 3 chance of getting a bad battery that was borderline dangerous. They were only $20 each. Compared to one $80 Thunder power battery it was worth the risk.

If Shimano were sourcing their batteries from a crappy manufacture it would be a big problem.


----------



## Fredrico

xxl said:


> Spoken with the wisdom of the clueless; Henri Desgrange was also the founder of the Audax movement, where right turns are quite common, as well as the Tour de France he's known for (and where turns of all sorts are found).
> 
> He also knew how to HTFU:
> 
> "'Henri Desgrange... imposed on himself a life of submitting himself to daily physical exercises. They had to demand, according to his draconian theories, a violent effort, prolonged, repeated, sometimes going as far as pain, demanding tenacity and even a certain stoicism. He took on a crusade against Original Inertia, against the softening of the body in the face of a society keen to suppress physical effort. He appointed himself the apostle of the fight to safeguard character. Suffer and sweat! And that meant a permanent individual culture of cross-country, at least three times a week, in the parc de St-Cloud. Nor did he hold back: he ran for at least an hour, never missing out Jardies hill, the fierce slope in the centre of the park used by hardened runners.'"
> 
> And was something of a patriot who walked the walk:
> 
> "Desgrange created a committee for physical education at the start of the first world war and trained several thousand soldiers to prepare them for the Front. Despite his age - he was already more than 50 - Desgrange then enrolled as a soldier himself. He presented himself at an assembly centre at Autan, distinctive for his grey hair and the Légion d'honneur pinned to his chest, and went to war as a _poilu_, an ordinary soldier. He won the Croix de guerre in combat and continued to write for _L'Auto_ but under the name 'Desgrenier.'"
> 
> So yeah, must've been a lib. :thumbsup:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Desgrange


Great stuff!

Desgrange was a true cyclist, not afraid to sweat, bust his a$$, and make it to the top. The man was the definition of "courage," that which only warriors and athletes possess in this mechanized age. Very inspiring! :thumbsup:


----------



## tlg

Dang! how'd we go from disc vs rim to full blown di2 discussion? Is disc vs rim finally dead? :idea:




Lombard said:


> I can tell you that I have been on at least 4 rides where a Di2 user's system malfunctioned.


I've been on significantly more rides where shift cables broke (or frayed and jammed) than Di2 malfunctions. 
The main Di2 malfunctions I've seen is Di2 wires not fully seated so they pop out and lose connection. But that's more installation error than malfunction.




> 3 were battery issues where the battery ran down after only a couple of rides.....
> 
> But that doesn't explain why a brand new battery didn't last for more rides.


There is a known issue where this can happen. If you use the E-tube App to update your system, then don't disconnect in the app, the Di2 system stays active searching for the app. It'll drain the battery in a day or two.


----------



## Lombard

tlg said:


> Dang! how'd we go from disc vs rim to full blown di2 discussion? Is disc vs rim finally dead? :idea:


Oh happy, happy day when it does. But we have to get to 1,000 posts regardless! :thumbsup:



tlg said:


> I've been on significantly more rides where shift cables broke (or frayed and jammed) than Di2 malfunctions.


Well, that may be because there are still far, far more bikes which still have cables than Di2 systems? :idea:



tlg said:


> There is a known issue where this can happen. If you use the E-tube App to update your system, then don't disconnect in the app, the Di2 system stays active searching for the app. It'll drain the battery in a day or two.


Uggggh, one more item that requires software/firmware updates to fix bugs??  No thanks! TMT (too much technology). Cable shifting requires no apps, no computers, no buggy software. :thumbsup:


----------



## tlg

Lombard said:


> Well, that may be because there are still far, far more bikes which still have cables than Di2 systems? :idea:


Not what I see. Groups I ride with are probably over 40% Di2.



> Uggggh, one more item that requires software/firmware updates to fix bugs??  No thanks! TMT (too much technology). Cable shifting requires no apps, no computers, no buggy software. :thumbsup:


Di2 doesn't require updates unless you want to do customized shifting etc.

I've got 3 Di2 bikes (had 4). Three have never been updated and operated flawlessly. Only one I updated.


----------



## xxl

factory feel said:


> I knew you couldn't back it up.


Wrong. As I explained to you already, my friend told me this, and he doesn't bother engaging in trollfests. Can't say I blame him, I certainly wouldn't bother with joining an obscure discussion forum because I'd once had a casual conversation about my industry with a friend and some disputatious online twit wanted personal documentation of something he could've easily gotten from the internet for himself.

Sorry you couldn't figure out the "Let Me Google It For You" link; there's a wealth of information on exactly the problems with li-on batteries that were described here by several posters.


----------



## xxl

Fredrico said:


> Great stuff!
> 
> Desgrange was a true cyclist, not afraid to sweat, bust his a$$, and make it to the top. The man was the definition of "courage," that which only warriors and athletes possess in this mechanized age. Very inspiring! :thumbsup:


Damned straight! 

Now go home, and rip every derailleur and brake, disc or otherwise, off your bike; you need but a fixed-gear, like the great ones!


----------



## SwiftSolo

tlg said:


> Not what I see. Groups I ride with are probably over 40% Di2.
> 
> Di2 doesn't require updates unless you want to do customized shifting etc.
> 
> I've got 3 Di2 bikes (had 4). Three have never been updated and operated flawlessly. Only one I updated.


I'm beginning to see a connection between hatred of bike technology and the hatred of getting within a century of reality--both chronologically and geographically?


----------



## Fajita Dave

xxl said:


> Damned straight!
> 
> Now go home, and rip every derailleur and brake, disc or otherwise, off your bike; you need but a fixed-gear, like the great ones!


Riding a fixie should be easy now. With multiple geared bikes hovering around 10.5Lbs surely we can make an 8Lbs fixie with no brakes? Should fly up hills in 50x11! 

Next thread will be "are braking aids dead." HTFU and use your legs for everything otherwise you aren't a true cyclist.


----------



## Fredrico

Fajita Dave said:


> Riding a fixie should be easy now. With multiple geared bikes hovering around 10.5Lbs surely we can make an 8Lbs fixie with no brakes? Should fly up hills in 50x11!
> 
> Next thread will be "are braking aids dead." HTFU and use your legs for everything otherwise you aren't a true cyclist.


Put a 44 and 19 tooth freewheel on it and rim brakes, I'll take it. 

Oh wait, I already have all that and some more gears to boot. :thumbsup: Rode a friend's 10 speed cluster once and couldn't decide what gear to be in. The steps seemed too thin. I'd have to downshift through several gears to get that satisfying increase in leg speed that so helps in recovery. Then on club rides I noticed how everyone was climbing in strange gears, like 50-28 or 39-13. They couldn't figure out what gears to be in either. It must be a learning process. :ihih:


----------



## bob13bob

the data makes a pretty clear winner in the first post. there are problems in the video, eg sample size of 1; but it's close enough
from the video

in a long straight descent.
https://youtu.be/t0hKMgUEku4?t=345
dry rim 6:36
dry disc 6:38

wet rim 7:52
wet disc 7:44

from the blog post 15.3 lbs vs 17.6 lbs.

if the difference is so small on a straight descent, rim brakes will crush disc in real world conditions where terrain is flat / uphill riding factored in. Aero >>weight >> other factors. and rim brakes are significantly better in both of those categories. 

imagine if he road up those hills with one bike being 1.5lbs than the other. disc bike would be crushed.

This is why in non drafting conditions, tdf TT and triathlon bikes look the way they do. when you're not drafting, aero is king. most of us ride in non drafting conditions. The day, the pros start using disc brakes in a non drafting event; is the day i'll be convinced... (but it's never gonna happen cause disc are significantly worse). in the drafting peloton, the disc brake drawbacks will be a lot less (keep in mind that UCI has a minimum weight on bikes that is now heavier that off the shelf consumer bikes). that ruleset makes discs a lot more competitive than they usually would be in the natural world [the world most of us ride in].

now the blog post, 15.3 vs 17.6 lbs. nothing else needs to be looked at, that is HUGE. 

disc bikes have to have heavier wheels, heavier brake systems.

why spend more money on a an inferior bike?


----------



## bob13bob

https://youtu.be/6nIqIIeW7fI

... well, maybe there is merit. i saw quite a few disc bikes in that video. I guess we'll see if the the majority of hte pros switch to discs.


----------



## DaveG

bob13bob said:


> the data makes a pretty clear winner in the first post. there are problems in the video, eg sample size of 1; but it's close enough
> from the video
> 
> in a long straight descent.
> https://youtu.be/t0hKMgUEku4?t=345
> dry rim 6:36
> dry disc 6:38
> 
> wet rim 7:52
> wet disc 7:44
> 
> from the blog post 15.3 lbs vs 17.6 lbs.
> 
> if the difference is so small on a straight descent, rim brakes will crush disc in real world conditions where terrain is flat / uphill riding factored in. Aero >>weight >> other factors. and rim brakes are significantly better in both of those categories.
> 
> imagine if he road up those hills with one bike being 1.5lbs than the other. disc bike would be crushed.
> 
> This is why in non drafting conditions, tdf TT and triathlon bikes look the way they do. when you're not drafting, aero is king. most of us ride in non drafting conditions. The day, the pros start using disc brakes in a non drafting event; is the day i'll be convinced... (but it's never gonna happen cause disc are significantly worse). in the drafting peloton, the disc brake drawbacks will be a lot less (keep in mind that UCI has a minimum weight on bikes that is now heavier that off the shelf consumer bikes). that ruleset makes discs a lot more competitive than they usually would be in the natural world [the world most of us ride in].
> 
> now the blog post, 15.3 vs 17.6 lbs. nothing else needs to be looked at, that is HUGE.
> 
> disc bikes have to have heavier wheels, heavier brake systems.
> 
> why spend more money on a an inferior bike?


I believe the Great Brake War of 2018 was declared over. An armistice was signed. Let the healing begin


----------



## No Time Toulouse

Welcome, newbie. I'm sure those members who posted their replies 2 or 3 years ago are eagerly waiting to respond....


----------



## OldChipper

bob13bob said:


> the data makes a pretty clear winner in the first post. there are problems in the video, eg sample size of 1; but it's close enough
> from the video
> 
> in a long straight descent.
> https://youtu.be/t0hKMgUEku4?t=345
> dry rim 6:36
> dry disc 6:38
> 
> wet rim 7:52
> wet disc 7:44
> 
> from the blog post 15.3 lbs vs 17.6 lbs.
> 
> if the difference is so small on a straight descent, rim brakes will crush disc in real world conditions where terrain is flat / uphill riding factored in. Aero >>weight >> other factors. and rim brakes are significantly better in both of those categories.
> 
> imagine if he road up those hills with one bike being 1.5lbs than the other. disc bike would be crushed.
> 
> This is why in non drafting conditions, tdf TT and triathlon bikes look the way they do. when you're not drafting, aero is king. most of us ride in non drafting conditions. The day, the pros start using disc brakes in a non drafting event; is the day i'll be convinced... (but it's never gonna happen cause disc are significantly worse). in the drafting peloton, the disc brake drawbacks will be a lot less (keep in mind that UCI has a minimum weight on bikes that is now heavier that off the shelf consumer bikes). that ruleset makes discs a lot more competitive than they usually would be in the natural world [the world most of us ride in].
> 
> now the blog post, 15.3 vs 17.6 lbs. nothing else needs to be looked at, that is HUGE.
> 
> disc bikes have to have heavier wheels, heavier brake systems.
> 
> why spend more money on a an inferior bike?


Well you don’t need to convince me! But of course disc brakes were never really about better performance. They’re about being able to sell everyone new frames and wheels and then the next lighter and more complements year after year again. Road discs are one of the biggest scams ever and 90% of the bike buying public got suckered. Oh and don’t forget all the trips to the bike shop to get that damn things fixed and tweaked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JSR

bob13bob said:


> The day, the pros start using disc brakes in a non drafting event; is the day i'll be convinced...


Keep an eye on teams riding Orbea for your opportunity. 
https://experience.orbea.com/en/wha...dium=home&utm_campaign=what makes ordu unique


----------



## Tschai

OldChipper said:


> Well you don’t need to convince me! But of course disc brakes were never really about better performance. They’re about being able to sell everyone new frames and wheels and then the next lighter and more complements year after year again. Road discs are one of the biggest scams ever and 90% of the bike buying public got suckered. Oh and don’t forget all the trips to the bike shop to get that damn things fixed and tweaked.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Totally disagree. The added tire clearance alone, among many other reasons, is reason enough that disc is better. Period!


----------



## Fredrico

bob13bob said:


> https://youtu.be/6nIqIIeW7fI
> 
> ... well, maybe there is merit. i saw quite a few disc bikes in that video. I guess we'll see if the the majority of hte pros switch to discs.


Well, the pros are encouraged to ride what their sponsors are pushing. Discs are the latest thing. They're also getting lighter. Will rim brakes join toe clips and straps, rat trap pedals, and vintage wool jerseys, in the dustbin of history? 

Hydraulic fluid would be the killer for me. Steel brake cables are so easy to maintain and last forever. Also, has anyone tried to true a disc that got slightly bent when the wheel was removed or installed? A real bummer.


----------



## tlg

Fredrico said:


> Well, the pros are encouraged to ride what their sponsors are pushing. Discs are the latest thing.


Encouraged. But many are given the choice and will choose a rim brake bike for a mountain climb. But with the bike weight limit at 6.8kg, it's easy for the pros to have disc versions that are just as light. It's a no brainer.



> Hydraulic fluid would be the killer for me. Steel brake cables are so easy to maintain and last forever. Also, has anyone tried to true a disc that got slightly bent when the wheel was removed or installed? A real bummer.


Displaying more of your non-knowledge. Once setup, disc's require far less maintenance that mechanical brakes. 
Truing a disc...pffftttt. That's simple. (and they don't get 'slightly bent from removing/installing)


----------



## Lombard

tlg said:


> Displaying more of your non-knowledge. Once setup, disc's require far less maintenance that mechanical brakes.
> Truing a disc...pffftttt. That's simple. (and they don't get 'slightly bent from removing/installing)


That's why Fred is a FORMER bike mechanic.

Bent discs are very easy to straighten. No big deal. Hydraulics are self adjusting, so lower maintenance than mechanical.

I have no real preference rim vs. disc brakes. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Maintenance isn't really a valid argument.


----------



## Rashadabd

I agree with Lombard and others and yes I have ridden and owned both on road bikes at this point. In fact, I recently went back to rim after 2-3 years on disc equipped bikes (Fuji SL and Trek Domane). It hasn't been a major issue either way at all. Like Lombard said they are just different and neither is truly superior or inferior in general. It completely depends on what your interests and needs are. What I really logged in to say though is that I am truly amazed that this thread is still going almost exactly three years after I started it lol.


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> I agree with Lombard and others and yes I have ridden and owned both on road bikes at this point. In fact, I recently went back to rim after 2-3 years on disc equipped bikes (Fuji SL and Trek Domane). It hasn't been a major issue either way at all. Like Lombard said they are just different and neither is truly superior or inferior in general. It completely depends on what your interests and needs are. What I really logged in to say though is that *I am truly amazed that this thread is still going almost exactly three years after I started it lol.*


Troublemaker!


----------



## Rashadabd

Lombard said:


> Troublemaker!


Totally lol. :thumbsup:


----------



## Coolhand

I have both, and my bikes with thru axels and discs are simply better. Discs were the "newest thing" in road bikes FIVE years ago. Now they are the standard for all new bikes except the entry level stuff.


----------



## OldChipper

Coolhand said:


> I have both, and my bikes with thru axels and discs are simply better. Discs were the "newest thing" in road bikes FIVE years ago. Now they are the standard for all new bikes except the entry level stuff.


Assuming this is not a troll...

Well that's it folks! Coolhand has spoken; they're better. 

As always, the questions are:
a) better at what and in what conditions
b) at what cost (not just financial) and 
c) were rim brakes sufficient to the needs of most cyclists?

And they're on all new bikes except the entry level stuff, you know, like the Pinarello F12, Colnago (who have a HUGE photo of Pogcar on a rim-brake V3R on their main webpage), Cervelo R5, Factor VAM those cheap crappy bikes the pros use. If discs are simply better why do dozens of pros still insist on using them? I guess they're not as smart as Coolhand. 

FWIW, last week, I spoke to one of the long-time employees at my (very large in terms of volume) LBS. He said they're seeing a significant increase in people who are getting fed up with the hassles of disc. 

Also, I understand that one very large manufacturer who was an early promoter of disc and who previously said that in 2 years all their bikes would be disc, is coming out with a brand new, high-end rim-brake bike. 

Now, better for revenue? I'll concede that point.  

Ban-hammer in 3....2...1...


----------



## OldChipper

Tschai said:


> Totally disagree. The added tire clearance alone, among many other reasons, is reason enough that disc is better. Period!


Why do I want or need more tire clearance on my ROAD bike????? I can already run 28mm tires and 30mm wide (external) rims if I should ever want to. Gravel, CX, MTB sure but we're talking road here.


----------



## aclinjury

Anyone watching the Giro 2020 currently going on?
Lots of wet and rainy stages, with lots of descents
There are a mix of rim and disc bikes.
And it's apparently clear that the rim bikes have no problem keeping up with the disc bikes on descents.

*So any speculation that disc has an advantage in wet descents is now disproven*.


----------



## Coolhand

the plural of anecdote is not data


----------



## duriel

I'm not riding disks for the braking power, although it is a LOT nicer. My ride now and probably all future bikes will be disks, cause of the much tighter front end the through axle provides.
And pro's are not a very good indication of braking performance, they don't use their brakes much and when they do, they are pro's!


----------



## Lombard

duriel said:


> And pro's are not a very good indication of braking performance, they don't use their brakes much and when they do, they are pro's!



Two things to keep in mind about the pros:

1) They don't chose what they ride. They ride what their sponsors give them.

2) As you say, pros are pros. In other words, a "better" bike won't make the "engine" better. They have handling and coordination abilities us mere mortals don't come anywhere close to.


----------



## Coolhand

*this whole thread, summarized*


----------



## xxl

Coolhand said:


> "this whole thread, summarized...."


No it isn't.


----------



## Coolhand

xxl said:


> no it isn't.


shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!!!


----------



## Coolhand

then:

M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

M: Oh! Oh I see!

A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

M: Oh...Sorry...

A: Not at all!

A: (under his breath) stupid git.

(The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.)

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

Other ManJohn Cleese) I've told you once.

Man: No you haven't!

Other Man: Yes I have.

M: When?

O: Just now.

M: No you didn't!

O: Yes I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I'm telling you, I did!

M: You did not!

O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.

O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.

O: Anyway, I did.

M: You most certainly did not!

O: Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

(pause)

M: It's just contradiction!

O: No it isn't!

M: It IS!

O: It is NOT!

M: You just contradicted me!

O: No I didn't!

M: You DID!

O: No no no!

M: You did just then!

O: Nonsense!

M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

(pause)

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is!

(pause)

M: I came here for a good argument!

O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.

O: Well! it CAN be!

M: No it can't!

M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

O: It is NOT!

M: It is!

O: Not at all!

M: It is!

(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)

O: Thank you, that's it.

M: (stunned) What?

O: That's it. Good morning.

M: But I was just getting interested!

O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

M: That was never five minutes just now!!

O: I'm afraid it was.

M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

M: WHAT??

O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

M: But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!

O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.

O: Thank you.

M: (clears throat) Well...

O: Well WHAT?

M: That was never five minutes just now.

O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

M: Well I just paid!

O: No you didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I don't want to argue about it!

O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!

O: No you haven't!

M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.

O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.

M: I've had enough of this!

O: No you haven't.

M: Oh shut up!

(Man leaves the office)


----------



## aclinjury

Lombard said:


> Two thing to keep in mind about the pros:
> 
> 1) They don't chose what they ride. They ride what their sponsors give them.
> 
> 2) As you say, pros are pros. In other words, a "better" bike won't make the "engine" better. *They have handling and coordination abilities us mere mortals don't come anywhere close to*.


Pros have engines, that i agree.

But for the handling abilities, well now, this is not necessarily true. Around here in the local Calabassas mountains of Socal, where many pros, including some World Tour but mostly domestic pros, come to train during the winter months (because Socal). And the fastest downhill KOMs are in fact not held by pros. There is one local downhill KOM guy in particular is pretty well know for setting crazy KOMs using a his rim brake bike, dropping many guys on disc brakes. And he would leave some sport motorcycle guys in the dust in many twisty sections. As an example, in sections of twisties with posted 25mph sign, he would take that corner at close to 40 mph. Then in another particular ~5 mi road descent with about 15 turns (a mix of sweepers and 180d hairpins), most people touch their brakes in every turn, some harder than others. to scrap off speed; this guy he would only touch his brakes 3 times (mainly in the 180d hairpin) the entire way down.


----------



## duriel

That's interesting, but the pro's are just visiting.
He'd still be faster yet on a full disk brake bike. ....oh, and, a, don't follow that guy downhill, ever!


----------



## velodog

Keegan Swenson wins Belgian Waffle Ride without a front brake. 

https://www.velonews.com/news/grave...t-a-front-brake-rose-grant-takes-womens-race/


----------



## duriel

What place did that KTM get? I think I could ride that on my kawa.


----------



## Rashadabd

duriel said:


> What place did that KTM get? I think I could ride that on my kawa.


Did someone mention dirt bikes? Because I love 'em....


----------



## OldChipper

Coolhand said:


>


Now there's something we DO agree on! One of the best comedy sketches ever.


----------



## Aladin

Coolhand said:


> shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!!!



Oooops.. the bobber went down.. fish on. 

Disc--- like all bikie stuff.. more junk to get another cycle of $$ inbound. Does some things ok... disc. IMO not worth the grief for average joe b 10mph'r.... but it keeps his mechanic/s paid. That is fine.

I have Avid Shorty's on both of my Litespeed's.. flat bar set ups. I can stop NOW.. albeit fairly strong large hands. Can see the use for a friend who has hand issues.. a hydraulic setup. 

Yet.. again IMO.. the craze for disc on road bikes just shows how they can sell most anything to the lycra crowd.


----------



## RidleyX

I have nothing against discs, and I think most of us riding CF bikes appreciate new technology. The problem is that discs pads do rub, rotors warp and aren't perfectly flat, the added weight and expense of discs, and are more than many home mechanics can handle vs easy-to-maintain rim brakes, etc. 

It is a huge positive that they do stop better, as long as they are properly installed with good pads, and they do make the choice of full carbon wheels less of a compromise vs having to purchase special brake pads that don't tend to work all that well in the rain.

All of the above said, the newest Ultegra and Dura Ace level rim brakes are so good... it's not as much of a compromise as many would seem to claim.


----------



## Aladin

RidleyX said:


> I have nothing against discs, and I think most of us riding CF bikes appreciate new technology. The problem is that discs pads do rub, rotors warp and aren't perfectly flat, the added weight and expense of discs, and are more than many home mechanics can handle vs easy-to-maintain rim brakes, etc.
> 
> It is a huge positive that they do stop better, as long as they are properly installed with good pads, and they do make the choice of full carbon wheels less of a compromise vs having to purchase special brake pads that don't tend to work all that well in the rain.
> 
> All of the above said, the newest Ultegra and Dura Ace level rim brakes are so good... it's not as much of a compromise as many would seem to claim.


:thumbsup: I dont disagree w a thing you wrote... but:

The types I see which would fail to understand how/learn to service disc are same who essentially go down the rd w 'coaster' brakes.. poor pad contact, wear and adjustment of the rim brake system. But same usually when I ask about chain cleaning/wear measurement give a blank look...

I *learned *to take the squeal otta rim brakes.. actually to date I haven't been beat that route. :aureola: And that's another angle for me.. a challenge. Cuttin' to said chase.. I'll offer rim brakes give as much grief... IF... your UP on your maintenance to stop anything close to the disc-er.


----------



## RidleyX

Aladin said:


> I *learned *to take the squeal otta rim brakes.. actually to date I haven't been beat that route. :aureola: And that's another angle for me.. a challenge. Cuttin' to said chase.. I'll offer rim brakes give as much grief... IF... your UP on your maintenance to stop anything close to the disc-er.



It's funny, but my Ridley was set up with a complete SRAM Force 22 groupset, and the SRAM brakes use Swiss Stop's as OEM. The combo of the Force brakes + the Swiss Stop pads almost never squeal... and I've used the same damn pads since I bought the bike in 2014. And, I've ridden over 2K miles just this summer... so, I'm putting a lot of miles on the bike, as well.


----------



## Aladin

RidleyX said:


> It's funny, but my Ridley was set up with a complete SRAM Force 22 groupset, and the SRAM brakes use Swiss Stop's as OEM. The combo of the Force brakes + the Swiss Stop pads almost never squeal... and I've used the same damn pads since I bought the bike in 2014. And, I've ridden over 2K miles just this summer... so, I'm putting a lot of miles on the bike, as well.


Pretty much same here.

I flip and tend a few for others.. gets comic.. lack of brake ability I observe. 

I have... set a bike to squeal at the end of the stop... see trail riding.  Dogs on long leashes etc....... I need a *LOUD *recorded sound like a train...... yet I do not ride enough trail to bother that route.


----------



## Rashadabd

As if the world needed anyone to add fuel to reignite this firestorm... Thanks Chris lol.









Chris Froome unhappy to be on disc brakes


'I don't think the technology is quite where it needs to be' says four-time Tour de France winner




www.cyclingnews.com


----------



## thatsmybush

I only have one bike without discs and that is by far my most challenging. The way tri/tt bikes go about hiding the brakes within the concept of the bike for aerodynamics makes the damn things a pain.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

this winter has been a lot better for riding on my new bike with disk brakes, to help with the perpetually wet roads this time of year. It's my first road bike to have quality Ultegra flat mount brakes. Much smoother control on steep wet roads. However the front went out on me last week. Pads are worn out after merely 4 months! The salmon rim brake pads on my summer bike are at least 4 years old and 16 000kms on it, and not worn out at all and the XT disk pads on my mountain bikes last a couple years too. My wife's bike with 105 flat mount brakes has seen excessive wear rates too. I understand the euro road pros have been swapping in XT rotors as they find the oem rotors not so good.


----------



## Lombard

BCSaltchucker said:


> this winter has been a lot better for riding on my new bike with disk brakes, to help with the perpetually wet roads this time of year. It's my first road bike to have quality Ultegra flat mount brakes. Much smoother control on steep wet roads. However the front went out on me last week. Pads are worn out after merely 4 months! The salmon rim brake pads on my summer bike are at least 4 years old and 16 000kms on it, and not worn out at all and the XT disk pads on my mountain bikes last a couple years too. My wife's bike with 105 flat mount brakes has seen excessive wear rates too. I understand the euro road pros have been swapping in XT rotors as they find the oem rotors not so good.


How many miles is 4 months? Although unless you ride 1,000 miles per month, pad wear sounds premature unless you are consistently riding in a slurry of silty goop.


----------



## Fredrico

Rashadabd said:


> As if the world needed anyone to add fuel to reignite this firestorm... Thanks Chris lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Froome unhappy to be on disc brakes
> 
> 
> 'I don't think the technology is quite where it needs to be' says four-time Tour de France winner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cyclingnews.com


. Read the same thing!



froome said:


> "The downside to disc brakes: the constant rubbing, the potential for mechanicals, the overheating, the discs becoming a bit warped when on descents longer than five or 10 minutes of constant braking.
> 
> "The distance between the disc and the rotors is still too narrow, so you're going to get that rubbing, you're going to get one piston that fires more than another, you're going to get these little issues. I don’t think the pistons quite retract the way they're meant to all the time. Quite often it’ll work on the stand and when the mechanic sorts it out, but once you get onto the road, it’s a different story."


And Saltchucker adds racers are using mountain bike rotors because they hold up! 

Lots of negatives there!

I've fiddled with countless disc brakes in the shop. The adjustments weren't precise; there was no tolerance; and I could waste time trying to perfectly true the damn rotor. Adjusting rim brakes is so easy. Rider can visually monitor the pads and replace them before they start screaming. 

Froome is right, tech needs to improve.


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> I've fiddled with countless disc brakes in the shop. The adjustments weren't precise; there was no tolerance; and I could waste time trying to perfectly true the damn rotor.


Adjusting disc brakes isn't difficult if you are a mechanic who knows what he is doing.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

I do not notice any rubbing but I do not care about a little drag any more. I seriously doubt there is any. However I have had great difficulty with disk brakes on a cross bike I had before. I re-bled redid them many times, and had two bike shops go over them too. They were just never any good. also had contimination issues but even after fixing that they were always inferior to rim brakes. They were post-mount type before the flat-mount era. Now my skinny fit step brother has that bike and is OK with the brakes. Bleeding brakes and fixing contamination is not for everyone to master, in fact it is not for most bike riders I think, and that is a serious shortcoming in some respects. However again on my MTB I have found the disk brakes to be really really low maintenance despite out perpetual mucky wet conditions. Seems they're more mature than the road bike disk brakes,


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> Adjusting disc brakes isn't difficult if you are a mechanic who knows what he is doing.


When you find the mech who "knows what he's doing," Chris Froome has a job for him!


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> When you find the mech who "knows what he's doing," Chris Froome has a job for him!


Well IDK, I don't seem to have a problem adjusting my disc brakes so they don't rub. And I'm not a pro mechanic.


----------



## xxl

Lombard said:


> Well IDK, I don't seem to have a problem adjusting my disc brakes so they don't rub. And I'm not a pro mechanic.


Me neither, FWIW. I don't own any disc-braked bikes, but a friend does, and I (watched a video and then) adjusted his so they don't rub, easy-peasy.


----------



## SPlKE

I'm guessing this debate is now settled. Somebody net it out for me... Disk breaks... yea or nay?


----------



## xxl

SPlKE said:


> I'm guessing this debate is now settled. Somebody net it out for me... Disk breaks... yea or nay?


Yes they do.


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> Well IDK, I don't seem to have a problem adjusting my disc brakes so they don't rub. And I'm not a pro mechanic.


To be perfectly honest, I haven't had to screw around with squeaking brake rotors for 5 years, so they've no doubt improved the engineering somewhat. Froome still complains about the exact same problems I had. I mean, adjusting rim brakes is so easy! The pads won't go off center when you get on the bike and ride it, like Froome complains about. Then again, some of these carbon forks or uber lightweight wheels probably flex just enough to cause this annoying squeaking. I got out of the business slightly before hydraulics came online, thank God. What a nightmare!

The only way that worked for me, eventually, was to loosen the two allen bolts holding the caliper mechanism to the frame, hiold the caliper closed with the brake lever, and while holding the lever snugly, tighten the two allen bolts. Then, releasing the brake lever, the rotor would most of the time, but not always, return to center, that is if the innards were clean enough to work freely.

The Luddite '80s Super Record rim brakes on my two bikes do fade on steep descents, but WTH, just squeeze harder, and they'll do the job! Pads last around 6,000 miles, depending on how much I brake. Rims last 30 or 40,000 miles. Hubs, BB, headset bearings, single pivot brake calipers, so far about 75,000 miles and still no play and smooth as silk. 

How long do disc pads last? When do the paper thin rotors start to warp? The acid test on equipment is pro racing. Froome's skepticism is right on. These negatives Froome mentions wait to be solved. So far, we have thicker [heavier!] rotors borrowed from mountain bikes. What's next?


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> To be perfectly honest, I haven't had to screw around with squeaking brake rotors for 5 years, so they've no doubt improved the engineering somewhat. Froome still complains about the exact same problems I had. I mean, adjusting rim brakes is so easy! The pads won't go off center when you get on the bike and ride it, like Froome complains about. Then again, some of these carbon forks or uber lightweight wheels probably flex just enough to cause this annoying squeaking. * I got out of the business slightly before hydraulics came online, thank God.* What a nightmare!


Adjusting hydraulics is easy peasy! You never need to re-adjust them unless you change to a wheel set that has a different brand of hub. At least on the bike I have with RS505 with Centerlock Ice Tech 160mm rotors. Granted I have read about the higher end rotors with more AL in the center being prone to warping. Mine have never warped. I only had to re-adjust them twice - once when I accidentally pulled the front lever with the wheel out and the other time when I changed wheel sets. Otherwise I have never had rub or squeal.

Don't get me wrong. I am not here to boast disc brakes over rim brakes or vice versa. I just think that avoiding them because you don't know how to adjust them is silly. It's not rocket science - really.


----------



## MDM

BCSaltchucker said:


> I do not notice any rubbing but I do not care about a little drag any more. I seriously doubt there is any. However I have had great difficulty with disk brakes on a cross bike I had before. I re-bled redid them many times, and had two bike shops go over them too. They were just never any good. also had contimination issues but even after fixing that they were always inferior to rim brakes. They were post-mount type before the flat-mount era. Now my skinny fit step brother has that bike and is OK with the brakes. Bleeding brakes and fixing contamination is not for everyone to master, in fact it is not for most bike riders I think, and that is a serious shortcoming in some respects. However again on my MTB I have found the disk brakes to be really really low maintenance despite out perpetual mucky wet conditions. Seems they're more mature than the road bike disk brakes,


If your brakes rub, you will hear it. To me, it's annoying, like a creak, and it's something to be fixed. I like a quiet bike. However, my road bike with discs has front rotor rub when I pedal out of the saddle, and that seems to be something due to fork flex, which I can't fix. It doesn't happen all the time though.


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> Adjusting hydraulics is easy peasy! You never need to re-adjust them unless you change to a wheel set that has a different brand of hub. At least on the bike I have with RS505 with Centerlock Ice Tech 160mm rotors. Granted I have read about the higher end rotors with more AL in the center being prone to warping. Mine have never warped. I only had to re-adjust them twice - once when I accidentally pulled the front lever with the wheel out and the other time when I changed wheel sets. Otherwise I have never had rub or squeal.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I am not here to boast disc brakes over rim brakes or vice versa. I just think that avoiding them because you don't know how to adjust them is silly. It's not rocket science - really.


Nice to be reassured the tech is working out. Hydraulics is the coolest, if you're willing to mess with setting it up, way more complicated than simply centering rim brakes with one allen wrench.

Have to admit almost all my experience was adjusting cheap hybrid disc brakes. There were some better built mountain bike discs that centered reliably, once I got them adjusted. I've been spoiled too long with 36 spoked wheels, cup and cone hubs, headsets, and 70 mm threaded BBs, down tube friction shifters; have a simple speedometer/odometer/clock on the bars that scrolls automatically, no buttons that always go bad; and carry a flip phone in a jersey pocket or backpack. Bike packers on youtube are riding stout custom gravel bikes with down tube shifters! How about that?


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> .........and carry a flip phone in a jersey pocket or backpack. Bike packers on youtube are riding stout custom gravel bikes with down tube shifters! How about that?


A flip phone? Ditch it! The carrier pigeon has no battery that will run down at the worst time! 👍


----------



## ogre

Fredrico said:


> Bike packers on youtube are riding stout custom gravel bikes with down tube shifters! How about that?


??? 
I actually went to U-tube and searched for 'stout custom gravel bikes bikes with downtube shifters'. Here's what I got -









By the way, Henry gives absolutely no validity to the argument of DT shifters on gravel bikes. I must have missed that press release.


----------



## velodog

ogre said:


> ???
> I actually went to U-tube and searched for 'stout custom gravel bikes bikes with downtube shifters'. Here's what I got -
> 
> View attachment 478431
> 
> By the way, Henry gives absolutely no validity to the argument of DT shifters on gravel bikes. I must have missed that press release.


Two reasons I've heard given for down tube shifters are easier to "rinko" (a form of packing) the bike, and some long distance cyclists find the shift levers easier to manipulate when the rides start getting overly long and their hand\finger strength starts to diminish. There are randoneurs that are riding as many as 1200 kilometers at a "sitting"(Paris Brest Paris). 

How Small is a Rinko Bike? – Rene Herse Cycles


----------



## Fredrico

ogre said:


> ???
> I actually went to U-tube and searched for 'stout custom gravel bikes bikes with downtube shifters'. Here's what I got -
> 
> View attachment 478431
> 
> By the way, Henry gives absolutely no validity to the argument of DT shifters on gravel bikes. I must have missed that press release.


Yep, that's the guy, Henry Wildeberry, retro bike packer with Ms. Cool making her own elegant statement. He says Paris-Brest-Paris endurance riders' hands eventually get tired click shifting and many find friction shifting on down tube is gentler on the hands. Electronic shifting might take care of that handicap. Don't forget a spare battery! 50 miles from the nearest bike shop, friction shifters are one less thing to worry about. 

Roadies all don't have to aspire to the latest Pinarello F wonderbike with 12 speed cassette, electronic shifting, disc brakes, and 46/34 chainrings. In this video linked below, the weight of Ms Cool's bike is 22.1 pounds, about the same as the two rigs I set up in '85, one with rack and fenders, and are still riding. 

I guess bike packing is a spinoff from gravel bikes, huh? One of the principle pleasures of being a "cyclist," exploring the environment and cultures up close and personal far off the interstates, harking back to a time when families took Sunday drives out into the countryside in their brand new cars, and major routes went straight through every town along the way.


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> Yep, that's the guy, Henry Wildeberry, retro bike packer with Ms. Cool making her own elegant statement. He says Paris-Brest-Paris endurance riders' hands eventually get tired click shifting and many find friction shifting on down tube is gentler on the hands. Electronic shifting might take care of that handicap. Don't forget a spare battery! 50 miles from the nearest bike shop, friction shifters are one less thing to worry about.
> 
> Roadies all don't have to aspire to the latest Pinarello F wonderbike with 12 speed cassette, electronic shifting, disc brakes, and 46/34 chainrings. In this video linked below, the weight of Ms Cool's bike is 22.1 pounds, about the same as the two rigs I set up in '85, one with rack and fenders, and are still riding.
> 
> I guess bike packing is a spinoff from gravel bikes, huh? One of the principle pleasures of being a "cyclist," exploring the environment and cultures up close and personal far off the interstates, harking back to a time when families took Sunday drives out into the countryside in their brand new cars, and major routes went straight through every town along the way.


I like it. Nice scenery!


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> I like it. Nice scenery!







Here's a mech confirming Froome's critique on these newfangled brakes. This guy cites weight weenie components not being up to handling the heat, four times hotter descending a mountain at 50 mph than descending a deer trail at 20 mph using thicker rotors and calipers on a mountain bike.

Seems like this achilles heel could be solved by more substantial discs and calipers for better cooling, dutifully making a sacrifice to the weight gods.


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> Here's a mech confirming Froome's critique on these newfangled brakes. This guy cites weight weenie components not being up to handling the heat, four times hotter descending a mountain at 50 mph than descending a deer trail at 20 mph using thicker rotors and calipers on a mountain bike.
> 
> Seems like this achilles heel could be solved by more substantial discs and calipers for better cooling, dutifully making a sacrifice to the weight gods.


Ironically, the larger aluminum center of the rotor is meant to transfer and discipate more heat, but at the same time makes the rotor more prone to warpage.


----------



## Finx

Rashadabd said:


> As if the world needed anyone to add fuel to reignite this firestorm...


You're such a troublemaker ...


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> Ironically, the larger aluminum center of the rotor is meant to transfer and discipate more heat, but at the same time makes the rotor more prone to warpage.


Which just goes to show you technological improvements always have their tradeoffs, like we Luddites have been pointing out. 

Here's another angle: Do you appreciate how much fossil fuels are required to manufacture that disc brake and deliver it to your shop? As a fossil fuel cost per watt produced, wind farms and solar panels are quite expensive to manufacture, maintain, and replace, far more expensive than piping in fossil fuels to run the generators. How often do disc pads have to be replaced compared to the old rim brake pads?

Most of us live in urban environments with all paved roads and bike paths. So the simplest solution for me, always preferring to leave the gas guzzler at home when going out for a bike ride, was to set up two road bikes, one for sport, one for utility. Gravel bikes are a couple of pounds heavier than what I have, so I'm not handicapped by weight. All the parts except one rear derailleur are interchangeable. The bike manufacturers hate me. Haven't spent more than $100 a year on bike stuff for years. Have a collection of clothing that will outlast the flesh stuffed into them.

I usually come back to the "more is better" crowd with a message put forth by Michael Moore in "Planet of the Humans:" consumerism, lust for the latest tech, has been driving mankind to his extinction since the Industrial Revolution. The solution, as we got a surprise taste of in the pandemic lockdown, is less consumerism. Make products that hold up, work reliably, and don't have proprietary tech that goes out of date, that people can happily live with, not dangle the latest bauble tempting buyers to always want something "better." When all is said, lust is a subjective phenomenon.

Amazing how little material goods a person needs to live a happy life without wants. I've met lots of happy poor people, not all that many happy rich people. They have everything they want, but always want more. Living cheap, which bicycles enable exquisitely, is a major part of the global warming solution: train people to live on less material wealth, therefore consume less energy. The global economy is finally making that possible. Let disc brakes find their niche in the mountains, but leave the rest of us happy not to lust for the latest tech, just because it is the latest tech and we have to have it to "keep up."


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> Here's another angle: Do you appreciate how much fossil fuels are required to manufacture that disc brake and deliver it to your shop?


This is a very weak argument. But hey, if you want to go that way, think of how much longer wheelsets will last since rims are no longer used as a brake surface. Disc rotors take up much less space than rims do, so you could say disc brakes actually result in less fossil fuel use than rim brakes. Think how many more rotors than rims you could ship in the same space. 



Fredrico said:


> As a fossil fuel cost per watt produced, wind farms and solar panels are quite expensive to manufacture, maintain, and replace, far more expensive than piping in fossil fuels to run the generators.


Where the fark did you come up with this one? Oil generators and gas turbines require much more maintenance and repair than solar panels that have no moving parts. Wind mills have moving parts, but are still much less expensive over the long run than fossil fuel generators.


----------



## DrSmile

I sense a PO redirect!


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> This is a very weak argument. But hey, if you want to go that way, think of how much longer wheelsets will last since rims are no longer used as a brake surface. Disc rotors take up much less space than rims do, so you could say disc brakes actually result in less fossil fuel use than rim brakes. Think how many more rotors than rims you could ship in the same space.
> 
> Where the fark did you come up with this one? Oil generators and gas turbines require much more maintenance and repair than solar panels that have no moving parts. Wind mills have moving parts, but are still much less expensive over the long run than fossil fuel generators.


Whatta ya mean, "weak?" Yes, if discs replace rim brake surfaces, the rims satisfy the gods of light weight and they don't wear out. A good quality cup and cone hub will outlast several rims. Rims used to be cosidered replaceable parts, like tires, handlebar tape, and saddles. I wouldn't expect most riders who squandered a few $thousand on proprietary trick wheels look at their rims as replaceable parts. 

Replacing a standard 32 spoked aluminum rim is a simple matter that takes less than an hour with a truing stand and spoke wrench, at widely spaced intervals, a few years of hard riding! You can see everything you're doing and sculpt a perfect wheel that will stay true for years and replaceable parts will be available. This is way more carbon efficient as going through multiple wheel sets. Come on, man!

Hydraulic disc brakes don't look like they hold up any better than rim brakes. The pads and rotors probably wear down as fast. I'll have to find the picture on youtube of a rotor that got chewed up way worse than any rim. Just look at how thin everything is, and how hot it gets. Granted, carbon rims don't brake worth a damn, so would definitely work better with discs. Aluminum? Not much gained by shaving down the brake surfaces.

Well, I guess windmills sending electricity into the grid are more efficient than fire powered generators, so ok, it would certainly be more efficient. Heat goes up the chimney. This needs another thread, though, in PO! Sorry for the digression into general materialism as what got us here in the first place.


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> Whatta ya mean, "weak?" Yes, if discs replace rim brake surfaces, the rims satisfy the gods of light weight and they don't wear out. A good quality cup and cone hub will outlast several rims. Rims used to be cosidered replaceable parts, like tires, handlebar tape, and saddles. I wouldn't expect most riders who squandered a few $thousand on proprietary trick wheels look at their rims as replaceable parts.
> 
> Replacing a standard 32 spoked aluminum rim is a simple matter that takes less than an hour with a truing stand and spoke wrench, at widely spaced intervals, a few years of hard riding! You can see everything you're doing and sculpt a perfect wheel that will stay true for years and replaceable parts will be available. This is way more carbon efficient as going through multiple wheel sets. Come on, man!


For you and me, yes. But remember that most riders have no idea how to build much less true a wheel. When the brake surface of the rim goes concave, they will throw out the wheel and replace it. Heck, many of these factory wheels have proprietary components that cannot be replaced anyway. And as you implied, riders who spend a few thousand dollars on trick wheels won't even bother.

So......if a rim brake rim lasts 20K miles before going concave, how many rotors would you have gone through at the same time? To take this further, how many rotors would you have to manufacture and ship for the carbon footprint to be equal to that of a rim?

As I said, weak argument.


----------



## Vitael4

Disc brakes are best change my mind (insert meme)


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> For you and me, yes. But remember that most riders have no idea how to build much less true a wheel. When the brake surface of the rim goes concave, they will throw out the wheel and replace it. Heck, many of these factory wheels have proprietary components that cannot be replaced anyway. And as you implied, riders who spend a few thousand dollars on trick wheels won't even bother.
> 
> So......if a rim brake rim lasts 20K miles before going concave, how many rotors would you have gone through at the same time? To take this further, how many rotors would you have to manufacture and ship for the carbon footprint to be equal to that of a rim?
> 
> As I said, weak argument.


Have to agree, proprietary wheel designs really seem to be attempts to snare market share. Shimano has been famous for this. So if owners want maintainability, they should go with the tried and true: aluminum rims laced to cup and cone hubs, with stainless steel spokes, at least 28, 32, or heck, 36. And that damn wheel will go the distance on real roads in the urban jungle. Gravel bikes are coming online set up for just that, transportation, getting around. I guess a lot of riders throw away the entire wheel when the rims get scored, but I never met any at the bike shops I've worked in, and we found only cheap trash in the dumpster outback. The price of wheels is insane. Why would I spring 5 thousand bucks on a set of wheels when I or the LBS could lace a brand new rim on a hub that's still in great shape and will go another 5 years?

Well, ok, we may differentiate between hip guys like you or me and the willful naifs who depend on the LBS to solve all their problems! Estimates of how many miles the aluminum rims I've gone through may be on the pessimistic side. Just glanced over at the commuter and it still has the front wheel purchased from Colorado Cyclist in '81, three years on the first bike, 10 on the second bike, now about 25 years on the commuter. Ambrosio Elite Durex, man, bullet proof! I've kept the brake surfaces and pads clean so they haven't gone south yet. How many miles? Who knows? Will anyone here have a disc rotor that'll last 40 years on three different bikes? These tin can thicknesses the weight weenies are putting on these tony race bikes sure won't. Like Saltchucker said, racers are balking and using mountain bike rotors.

Go ahead and collect all the tools you'll need to bleed the hydraulics and fiddle with alignment, I'll stick with a trusty Park black spoke wrench, a home made wooden rim centering tool, a 10mm socket wrench to attach the pads, an 8 mm allen wrench to center the brakes, and I'm good for another 10 years! If I ever make it to the Dolomites, I'll consider renting a disc brake bike, so I can brag to my buddies.


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> Have to agree, proprietary wheel designs really seem to be attempts to snare market share. Shimano has been famous for this. So if owners want maintainability, they should go with the tried and true: aluminum rims laced to cup and cone hubs, with stainless steel spokes, at least 28, 32, or heck, 36. And that damn wheel will go the distance on real roads in the urban jungle. Gravel bikes are coming online set up for just that, transportation, getting around. I guess a lot of riders throw away the entire wheel when the rims get scored, but I never met any at the bike shops I've worked in, and we found only cheap trash in the dumpster outback. The price of wheels is insane. Why would I spring 5 thousand bucks on a set of wheels when I or the LBS could lace a brand new rim on a hub that's still in great shape and will go another 5 years?


WTF, I don't see why anybody would spring for a $5K wheel set, but that's just me. Lots of quality alloy rims out there that are a good compromise between light weight and durable. I've built some quality wheels and the most expensive one I built was the most recent at around $800 for all the components. Yes, I sprung for White Industries T11 hubs. The next set I will build will have Bitex hubs which bring the cost down considerably.

Shimano has made some great hubs. Sadly, they seem to be moving away from selling wheel components and only want to sell complete wheels. They don't even sell a rim brake Dura-Ace hub anymore. The 9000 was the last one and new/old stock is pretty much gone. I build my rim brake road wheel sets 24 front/32 rear. More spokes give you a less flexy wheel.



Fredrico said:


> Well, ok, we may differentiate between hip guys like you or me and the willful naifs who depend on the LBS to solve all their problems! Estimates of how many miles the aluminum rims I've gone through may be on the pessimistic side. Just glanced over at the commuter and it still has the front wheel purchased from Colorado Cyclist in '81, three years on the first bike, 10 on the second bike, now about 25 years on the commuter. Ambrosio Elite Durex, man, bullet proof! I've kept the brake surfaces and pads clean so they haven't gone south yet. How many miles? Who knows? Will anyone here have a disc rotor that'll last 40 years on three different bikes? These tin can thicknesses the weight weenies are putting on these tony race bikes sure won't. Like Saltchucker said, racers are balking and using mountain bike rotors.


Interesting that weight weenies don't shun disc brakes entirely as they add weight. Oh the humanity!

Not surprised your front wheel is still going. Front wheels aren't subject to the drive forces rear wheels are. And you get much more braking power in the front from much less brake force, so the rim surface will wear much slower. Don't know how many miles it has? That is important. Wheels don't wear out sitting idle.


----------



## Fredrico

Woahhh....!! Quick release rocks! Thru axle fails.






This guy takes out his formulas and exposes once and for all the BS that "thru axles" actually make the wheel stiffer. Quite the reverse. 

He says tightening the thru axle with the little wimpy tool provided usually doesn't reach the torque necessary to keep the hub from flexing in the dropouts when you need it to stay stiff the most. He says the progressive torque on QR cams holds the wheel in the dropouts tighter than thru axle! Why? He doesn't talk about tension, but largely because as you tighten the QR lever, the progressive cam ends up tensioning the QR shaft, exactly what you need to keep the wheel from flexing in the dropouts! How about that? 

Snookered by the marketing geniuses [and lawyers!] yet again, appealing to fear, to make us want something that actually works worse than what it replaced! He says you have to torque down thru axle bolts really hard to equal the tension of a standard manually adjusted QR. The lawyers stay up at night worried about the idiots who don't tighten their QR snugly and lose a wheel on that terrible descent. Eliminate the dropouts and wheels won't fall out! The lawyers can sleep at night!

So bah humbug. Always loved QR wheels. So convenient! No tools necessary! You do it by feel, you know, like riding a bike!


----------



## MDM

The real reason for a thru axle is to keep braking forces from ejecting the front wheel.


----------



## Fredrico

MDM said:


> The real reason for a thru axle is to keep braking forces from ejecting the front wheel.


Yes. Builders go with thru axle because it's "safer," viz. the wheel will stay in place even if it comes loose. Better than "lawyer lips", right?

Manufacturers perceived that problem, whether true or not, about the time discs became standard on road bikes, this despite 20 years of disc wheels not tripping out of dropouts on QR mountain bikes. The point is, if tensioned normally with the QR skewer, braking forces don't eject the front wheel. Thru axle is another solution looking for a problem. Riders used to file off "lawyer lips" so their front wheels would actually drop out without unscrewing the nut on the skewer. So manufacturers insured liability protection by going the next step, thru axle.

IOW, like so much other stuff about modern bikes, the trade offs are too often worse than the problems they claim to solve. I ain't giving up my QR skewers, much less true dropouts, because some ninny tells me they aren't as good as thru axle. They're better. Thru axle tradeoffs are unacceptable for the minimal gain in "safety." I'd skip buying a disc brake road bike if it has thru axles, but probably don't have the choice.


----------



## ogre

A big advantage of thru-axles is that they provide a much more consistent interface between the brake pads and rotor each time you remove/install the wheel.


----------



## Fredrico

ogre said:


> A big advantage of thru-axles is that they provide a much more consistent interface between the brake pads and rotor each time you remove/install the wheel.


Sure, if you're willing to mess with it. 

I've just slipped the wheel in the dropouts if bike is standing on the ground, and then, while pushing firmly down on the stem with the right arm, click the QR lever closed with the left arm. If bike is in a stand, very easy to seat the wheel up into the dropouts with both hands. On a true dropout without lawyer lips, I don't even have to adjust the skewer tension. The brake pads center just fine! If they're off, the brake bolt came loose. If the bolt wasn't torqued down enough during the previous assembly, lateral force from repeated braking could wiggle it loose.

I can definitely appreciate your preference for thru axles, though, dealing with the minimal clearance of pads and disc. Good point!


----------



## Rashadabd

Regardless of how you feel about it, it is the future (and really the present too)....






Disc Brakes Offer Superior Performance, But Not Everyone Is Ready to Bid the Rim Brake Farewell


Disc brakes offer superior performance, but not everyone is ready to bid the rim brake farewell.




www.bicycling.com


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> Regardless of how you feel about it, it is the future (and really the present too)....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Disc Brakes Offer Superior Performance, But Not Everyone Is Ready to Bid the Rim Brake Farewell
> 
> 
> Disc brakes offer superior performance, but not everyone is ready to bid the rim brake farewell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bicycling.com


Paywall.


----------



## Rashadabd

Lombard said:


> Paywall.


Oh wow, I guess I had a free article available or something. That's unfortunate because it is a pretty good discussion of the reality. In short, bike manufacturers have already moved on due to declining rim brake sales (not the other way around as has been suggested apparently), so consumers that are holding out will eventually have to as well. The article suggests the number of people doing so isn't as many as some people think. The article also celebrates the positives of rim brake equipped bikes while also acknowledging the benefits that come with disc brakes.


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> Oh wow, I guess I had a free article available or something. That's unfortunate because it is a pretty good discussion of the reality. In short, bike manufacturers have already moved on due to declining rim brake sales (not the other way around as has been suggested apparently), so consumers that are holding out will eventually have to as well. The article suggests the number of people doing so isn't as many as some people think. The article also celebrates the positives of rim brake equipped bikes while also acknowledging the benefits that come with disc brakes.


As is usually the case, there are ups and downs to both. The bottom line is if you have a rim brake bike bike you love, there is no reason to buy a new bike in order to get disc brakes. Although the choices of components for repairs and upgrades are slowly dwindling.


----------



## Rashadabd

Lombard said:


> As is usually the case, there are ups and downs to both. The bottom line is if you have a rim brake bike bike you love, there is no reason to buy a new bike in order to get disc brakes. Although the choices of components for repairs and upgrades are slowly dwindling.


Those are pretty much my feelings too. You will eventually have less (or maybe even few) options for wheels and replacement parts, but the differences in performance are not night and day. There's nothing "wrong" with either brake type honestly, as each has its strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the day, things are changing and there is some stuff to really like about disc brake equipped bikes. Not everyone will love them, but I see why lots of people do. I currently have one bike with each, but probably won't buy another bike with rim brakes given the shift that is clearly occurring.


----------



## MDM

Fredrico said:


> Sure, if you're willing to mess with it.
> 
> I've just slipped the wheel in the dropouts if bike is standing on the ground, and then, while pushing firmly down on the stem with the right arm, click the QR lever closed with the left arm. If bike is in a stand, very easy to seat the wheel up into the dropouts with both hands. On a true dropout without lawyer lips, I don't even have to adjust the skewer tension. The brake pads center just fine! If they're off, the brake bolt came loose. If the bolt wasn't torqued down enough during the previous assembly, lateral force from repeated braking could wiggle it loose.
> 
> I can definitely appreciate your preference for thru axles, though, dealing with the minimal clearance of pads and disc. Good point!


I wonder what Tullio Campagnolo would think about this? He would probably consider thru axles a step backwards. He's probably rolling over in his grave about now.


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> As is usually the case, there are ups and downs to both. The bottom line is if you have a rim brake bike bike you love, there is no reason to buy a new bike in order to get disc brakes. Although the choices of components for repairs and upgrades are slowly dwindling.


So true. Don't abandon the one you love for fashion! But pay respects to the new stuff and if something really great comes along, adapt to it and kiss the old stuff goodbye.

There's an aftermarket for the good stuff, though, driven by enthusiasts. Chains, freewheels and rim brake pads will still be available 20 years from now. But sure, go with the flow, get the most popular stuff, more bang for the buck! The options are numerous: not only hydraulic disc brakes, add wattage strain gauge that tells rider the awful truth, wireless electronic shifting, instant hard data on all bodily functions, more gears, a map of your location...and STRAVA! What more could you ask for? A motor? Got it!

I just wanna ride my bike. The less on it, the less there is to worry about. I also enjoy getting lost once in a while. Keeps me fresh! Always get stale slavishly sticking to an exercise regimen. Let the hills decide!


----------



## dir-t

Four years of the "once all, end all thread"? Just saying.


----------



## Rashadabd

dir-t said:


> Four years of the "once all, end all thread"? Just saying.


It was never designed to end the conversation (how could it??? this is RBR after all...). The thread was designed to prevent this topic from spilling over into every other discussion, which it was at the time. It's all right there in the first post. To be fair though, I am as surprised as anyone that this topic is still carrying on and that it has any fire left to it at all lol.


----------



## Lombard

dir-t said:


> Four years of the "once all, end all thread"? Just saying.


----------



## Finx

Rashadabd said:


> It was never designed to end the conversation (how could it??? this is RBR after all...). The thread was designed to prevent this topic from spilling over into every other discussion, which it was at the time. It's all right there in the first post. To be fair though, I am as surprised as anyone that this topic is still carrying on and that it has any fire left to it at all lol.


We have the Froominator to thank for the resurrection of this topic.


----------



## bob13bob

i find the thesis that discs are bad on road bikes to be more convincing. 

it's very lucrative for bike industry to push disc brakes, even though these bikes are inferior to rim bikes of the last generation. 400g is massively lighter on a high performance road bike.


----------



## Rashadabd

bob13bob said:


> i find the thesis that discs are bad on road bikes to be more convincing.
> 
> it's very lucrative for bike industry to push disc brakes, even though these bikes are inferior to rim bikes of the last generation. 400g is massively lighter on a high performance road bike.


Both are good, both are bad too because there are pros and cons to any kind of brake system on bikes. Most of this though is humans finding reasons to argue with and label one another about another topic about which there is no true "right" answer so that they can prove how much smarter they are. The simple fact of the matter is you can have a lightweight exceptional bike with either brake type. You can have a fast bike with either brake type. You can have an aero bike with either brake type. You can have reasonably quick wheel changes with either brake type. Lots of people do all of these things at this point in fact. To argue anything else is silly. Just choose what you prefer and ride it. Share what you like about what you chose whenever and wherever you like, but why try to convince other humans that they are completely off base for liking a different brake type that works well enough for pros to be using it? (and yes pros are still using both brake types in pretty much every race). It just seems like banging your head against the wall and completely ignoring the reality about how much has changed since we started this thread just for the sake of it. If it still floats your boat, do you though.


----------



## Rashadabd

Duplicate post


----------



## Lombard

Rashadabd said:


> Both are good, both are bad too because there are pros and cons to any kind of brake system on bikes. Most of this though is humans finding reasons to argue with and label one another about another topic about which there is no true "right" answer so that they can prove how much smarter they are. The simple fact of the matter is you can have a lightweight exceptional bike with either brake type. You can have a fast bike with either brake type. You can have an aero bike with either brake type. You can have reasonably quick wheel changes with either brake type. Lots of people do all of these things at this point in fact. To argue anything else is silly. Just choose what you prefer and ride it. Share what you like about what you chose whenever and wherever you like, but why try to convince other humans that they are completely off base for liking a different brake type that works well enough for pros to be using it? (and yes pros are still using both brake types in pretty much every race). It just seems like banging your head against the wall and completely ignoring the reality about how much has changed since we started this thread just for the sake of it. If it still floats your boat, do you though.


It's called religion. Just like chain lube.


----------



## SPlKE

Lombard said:


> It's called religion. Just like chain lube.


What? Did somebody say... ?


----------



## Lombard

SPlKE said:


> What? Did somebody say... ?


Here, here, this one needs a bump!









The Once and For All, End All Be All, Chain Lube Thread


White litenin. It's great. Great at everything except lubricating chains.




www.roadbikereview.com


----------



## BCSaltchucker

Chris Froome enters the fray, goes into detail with his case against disc brakes in his recent review of some Factor bike. He does not mention weight nor bike change times, however.


----------



## jabpn

Fredrico said:


> A motor?


Oh, emmm, geee....if this ever happens.....I've got a great name for it. Call it a "motor" cycle. I mean, isn't that just the best name ever? Sometimes I amaze myself.
( On a side note, it is interesting that motorcycles originated from what was essentially an ebike back in the day.)


----------



## BCSaltchucker

by that logic we can include bicycles powered by motors running on donuts and coffee as 'motorcycles' too. Like every 2 wheeled thing in your garage.

*motor*

mo·tor | \ ˈmō-tər \
*Definition of motor*
(Entry 1 of 3)
1*: *one that imparts motion specifically *: *PRIME MOVER

motor
adjective
Definition of _motor_ (Entry 2 of 3)
1a*: *causing or imparting motion
b*: *of, relating to, or being a motor neuron or a nerve containing motor neuronsmotor fiber
c*: *of, relating to, concerned with, or involving muscular movement, or motor areas of the brain


----------



## Fredrico

BCSaltchucker said:


> by that logic we can include bicycles powered by motors running on donuts and coffee as 'motorcycles' too. Like every 2 wheeled thing in your garage.
> 
> *motor*
> 
> mo·tor | \ ˈmō-tər \
> *Definition of motor*
> (Entry 1 of 3)
> 1*: *one that imparts motion specifically *: *PRIME MOVER
> 
> motor
> adjective
> Definition of _motor_ (Entry 2 of 3)
> 1a*: *causing or imparting motion
> b*: *of, relating to, or being a motor neuron or a nerve containing motor neuronsmotor fiber
> c*: *of, relating to, concerned with, or involving muscular movement, or motor areas of the brain


Right on!

As in "motoring along the flats." Until, that is, the legs and pounding heart tell the real story. And how far could the rider go on his 40# bike carrying that dead battery? No thanks. I'll take a cold fizzy Coca Cola Classic. If really bonked, a Snickers bar springs me back to life every time.

If battery bikes get more people out pedaling, it's a great stylistic adoption of the "cycling lifestyle" to save the planet, when "newbies" finally get strong enough to ride without battery assist. The electricity that charged the battery probably came from a coal or gas fired CO2 emitter. 

There was a similar bike boom right after the OPEC "oil crisis" in the mid '70s. It came on the tails of running, and for me, facing mid life crisis at age 40, wreaked so many valuable benefits, the crashes and broken collar bones were a small price to pay. My ex, the same who filed for divorce after I squandered $1400 on the full Campy DeRosa I still ride, is now religiously riding a Georgina Terry. My daughter and her husband also ride regularly. 

How about that, comrades? We're ahead of the game to health and fitness balanced on two wheels seamlessly integrated into mobility. I drive the car once a month to make it home before frozen fish thaws out, and once a year drive out west to visit family and friends. That's it. Bikes are so energy efficient. And great food is a negligible expense compared to gasoline.


----------



## bob13bob

Lombard said:


> It's called religion. Just like chain lube.


not true. there is stronger evidence for one thesis than the other.


----------



## bob13bob

Rashadabd said:


> The simple fact of the matter is you can have a lightweight exceptional bike with either brake type.


not true. evidence is rather clear on this. much cheaper bikes 5 years ago are lighter than top end disc bikes today. The not so easy to understand truth is: in a drafting type road race with any climbing, weight overrides aero.

then you also have to add in that brakes aren't used that offen in roadbiking, very high psi with skinny tires. also increased liklihood for rubbing etc. 

my speculation follows: the only reason aero is creeping in is beceause of hte minimum bike weight. Since you need too use the weight somewhere, might as well make parts more aero. Right now F1 care rule changes are increased the weight 3kg to 749kg. team engineers are statements are matching this one; how to get the most out of that weight gain in the car. if 3kg matters on 749 powered rig. imagine what 400g means on a human powered 6.8kg bicycle.


----------



## tlg

bob13bob said:


> The not so easy to understand truth is: in a drafting type road race with any climbing, weight overrides aero.


Perhaps if you're in a pro race with a peloton & finishing on a mountain. Are you?
For anyone else riding on their own or even small groups, the aero bike trumps the light bike. This is a proven fact.
















> then you also have to add in that brakes aren't used that offen in roadbiking, very high psi with skinny tires. also increased liklihood for rubbing etc.


Nobody with any sense is using very high psi and skinny tires anymore.
Tires rubbing your brakes? lol



> my speculation follows: the only reason aero is creeping in is beceause of hte minimum bike weight.


Your speculation is wrong. Aero has swept in... because it's proven faster.


----------



## Lombard

bob13bob said:


> ................very high psi with skinny tires.


Have you forgotten, it's 2021.



bob13bob said:


> .........................also increased liklihood for rubbing etc.


Only if you don't know how to adjust them.


----------



## bob13bob

tlg said:


> Perhaps if you're in a pro race with a peloton & finishing on a mountain. Are you?
> For anyone else riding on their own or even small groups, the aero bike trumps the light bike. This is a proven fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody with any sense is using very high psi and skinny tires anymore.
> Tires rubbing your brakes? lol
> 
> Your speculation is wrong. Aero has swept in... because it's proven faster.


my comment explicitly says in road bike racing where drafting is big. you then post evidence of a completely different kind of riding

what you mean they don't use high psi skinny tires anymore? evidence? what psi and tire widths are they using? 

disc brakes rub, dont take my word for it, straight from the horses mouth in a video froome posted. 

evidence that my speculation is wrong? 

other than that, the less drafting that occors, teh more aero starts to beat weight. sliding gray scale, not black and white. eg in Triathelte riding with minimal drafting (but there is still drafting effect and drafting plays a big part of strategy), the bikes lean more taking additional weight for aero. your statements are overly simplifying a nuanced issue. there is a reason why TT bikes, triathlete bikes, road racing, bikes all are very different from each other.


----------



## bob13bob

Lombard said:


> Have you forgotten, it's 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you don't know how to adjust them.


yes, you know more than froome and his team of mechanics. You should reach out to them and sell your consulting services and explain to them that they only have rubbing issues because they don't know how to adjust them properly. 

=


----------



## tlg

bob13bob said:


> my comment explicitly says in road bike racing where drafting is big. you then post evidence of a completely different kind of riding


Yes, and your comment was irrelevant to probably everyone on this site. There's very few professional racers on here. 
Which is why I said *"Perhaps if you're in a pro race with a peloton & finishing on a mountain. Are you? "*



> what you mean they don't use high psi skinny tires anymore? evidence? what psi and tire widths are they using?


OMG seriously? 😲 
Have you followed pro racing in the past 5 years? Every pro team is riding 25-28mm tires. Been this way for years.

2017








Tires of the Tour de France


A breakdown of the brands, the widths, the pressures and the stage wins




www.bikeradar.com




As of Friday, four of the six road stages thus far in the 2017 Tour de France have been won on 26mm tubulars. While 23mm was the pro standard not so long ago, this year 20 teams are using 25mm tires 









Why the tires at the Tour de France keep getting wider and the pressure lower


There's been a trend among the world's best cyclists toward riding wider tires with lower pressure. It's faster and more comfortable.




www.businessinsider.com







> disc brakes rub, dont take my word for it, straight from the horses mouth in a video froome posted.


You weren't clear on what was rubbing.
But on that, I don't need to take your word. My disc brakes don't rub.



> evidence that my speculation is wrong?


Yes. I provided ample evidence. Unless you're riding 100mi in a peloton and finishing up a mountain, aero virtually always trumps weight over the course of a ride. 
It's proven. And that is why aero has swept in. Your 'speculation' is baseless conspiracy.


----------



## Lombard

tlg said:


> You weren't clear on what was rubbing.
> But on that, I don't need to take your word. My disc brakes don't rub.


Neither do mine......when they are adjusted properly. If I swap in a wheel set with a different brand of hub, I usually have to set up the brakes again so they don't rub. Setting them up is easy peasy.

If your hydraulic disc brakes rub, more than likely it is USER ERROR. I know nothing about Froome or his team of mechanics, nor do I care. Fact is I have never had a problem getting my hydraulic disc brakes to not rub.


----------



## bob13bob

tlg said:


> Perhaps if you're in a pro race with a peloton & finishing on a mountain. Are you?
> For anyone else riding on their own or even small groups, the aero bike trumps the light bike. This is a proven fact.


thanks for at least bringing some evidence. now we can scrutinize and follow some kind of scientific method. Of those 3 videos, none of them draft at all, even with just 2 people. i'll focuses on the data from the 3rd. it actually supports my thesis. both of those bikes are aeroish, with teh specialized being even more aero. the spec weighs 1 lb heavier. 5 miles 400ft climbing, sample size of 2 for each trial (n=2). typical time to complete the trial: 13min. trial 1: the non Spec is 5 slower, trial 2, non spec is 1 sec slower. These aren't statistically significant. Also, the video maker especially races crits and slants his video towards that... in his own words, these finding apply mostly to flat races.

-400ft over 5miles ain't too much climbing
-even crits have ALOT more drafting than the zero drafting experiments he is using. (easy to see from video)
-typical road bike racing has way more drafting than even crits
-pro road racing have less aero bikes than that specialized (look at hte wheelset difference). this makes sense given the above statements.

this shows how much of a difference cycling drafting makes, but maybe i was incorrect. eyeballing the power meter, it takes 50% increase in juice to break wind. 



 . in the video he does state headwind. this difference is huge and much larger than aero bike vs non aero bike. keep in mind, the larger the peloton, the larger the drafting take effect.

my speculation and theory is, even uci removed weight limits completely, at this aero crap would completely disappear from the pro riders bikes. based on simple logic: 6.8kg of aero bike IS faster than 6.8kg of non aero bike. However, i'm prety sure 5.8kg of non aero bike is faster than 6.8kg of aero bike in an event that is won with drafting, climbing, and sprint finishes. we won't know because UCI places a 6.8kg minimum weight.

you asked what kind of riding I do? I typically ride wiht a buddy and and draft. we take turns breaking air. depending on the fitness difference, the fitter rider breaks more air. I also mistakenly bought a aeroish bike, which is a pita at time (didn't know better at the time). the wheels are much closer together and toe overlap is quite annoying. for the type of riding i do, lightweight bike smashes aero bike. (you can do some research on even 2 person drafting if you unfamiliar with it). For a road bike race, the drafting makes a much larger difference than 2 person drafting.

if someone has evidence where they actually took drafting in to considering when comparing aero vs non aero, that would be awesome. it's hard to find as all these "sponsored" videos have incentive to show the audience that they should go buy new bikes with new aero; but they are very selective in how they collect data. They know what they are doing, and the know what kinds of tests favor new bikes.


----------



## Lombard

bob13bob said:


> thanks for at least bringing some evidence. now we can scrutinize and follow some kind of scientific method. Of those 3 videos, none of them draft at all, even with just 2 people. i'll focuses on the data from the 3rd. it actually supports my thesis. both of those bikes are aeroish, with teh specialized being even more aero. the spec weighs 1 lb heavier. 5 miles 400ft climbing, sample size of 2 for each trial (n=2). typical time to complete the trial: 13min. trial 1: the non Spec is 5 slower, trial 2, non spec is 1 sec slower. These aren't statistically significant. Also, the video maker especially races crits and slants his video towards that... in his own words, these finding apply mostly to flat races.
> 
> -400ft over 5miles ain't too much climbing
> -even crits have ALOT more drafting than the zero drafting experiments he is using. (easy to see from video)
> -typical road bike racing has way more drafting than even crits
> -pro road racing have less aero bikes than that specialized (look at hte wheelset difference). this makes sense given the above statements.
> 
> this shows how much of a difference cycling drafting makes, but maybe i was incorrect. eyeballing the power meter, it takes 50% increase in juice to break wind.
> 
> 
> 
> . in the video he does state headwind. this difference is huge and much larger than aero bike vs non aero bike. keep in mind, the larger the peloton, the larger the drafting take effect.
> 
> my speculation and theory is, even uci removed weight limits completely, at this aero crap would completely disappear from the pro riders bikes. based on simple logic: 6.8kg of aero bike IS faster than 6.8kg of non aero bike. However, i'm prety sure 5.8kg of non aero bike is faster than 6.8kg of aero bike in an event that is won with drafting, climbing, and sprint finishes. we won't know because UCI places a 6.8kg minimum weight.
> 
> you asked what kind of riding I do? I typically ride wiht a buddy and and draft. we take turns breaking air. depending on the fitness difference, the fitter rider breaks more air. I also mistakenly bought a aeroish bike, which is a pita at time (didn't know better at the time). the wheels are much closer together and toe overlap is quite annoying. for the type of riding i do, lightweight bike smashes aero bike. (you can do some research on even 2 person drafting if you unfamiliar with it). For a road bike race, the drafting makes a much larger difference than 2 person drafting.
> 
> if someone has evidence where they actually took drafting in to considering when comparing aero vs non aero, that would be awesome. it's hard to find as all these "sponsored" videos have incentive to show the audience that they should go buy new bikes with new aero; but they are very selective in how they collect data. They know what they are doing, and the know what kinds of tests favor new bikes.


Why don't you start your own thread about aero vs. weight rather than hijacking a perfectly good disc vs. rim brake slugfest?


----------



## Fredrico

Lombard said:


> Why don't you start your own thread about aero vs. weight rather than hijacking a perfectly good disc vs. rim brake slugfest?


Disc brakes brought in a new road bike aesthetic away from boring round tubes.

The shapes: frame, fork, stays, discs, brakeless aero rims, all visually create the image of speed. It'll break the wind, but won't be as comfortable at mile 95 and probably won't climb any better than its round tube counterparts.

Everybody's got their 32mm tires, 36 chainring, 40 pie plate gravel bike with that goofy long cage derailleur and they're feeling a little slow on the MUTs. So alert marketers came up with what they're missing, svelt, gossamer, go fast road bikes that'll drop buddies on the descents and still stop on a dime! Ok, cool.


----------



## david hernemar

Hybrid / Road


----------



## Lombard

david hernemar said:


> Hybrid / Road


Scissors / Paper / Rocks.


----------



## SPlKE

Fredrico said:


> Disc brakes brought in a new road bike aesthetic away from boring round tubes.
> 
> The shapes: frame, fork, stays, discs, brakeless aero rims, all visually create the image of speed. It'll break the wind, but won't be as comfortable at mile 95 and probably won't climb any better than its round tube counterparts.
> 
> Everybody's got their 32mm tires, 36 chainring, 40 pie plate gravel bike with that goofy long cage derailleur and they're feeling a little slow on the MUTs. So alert marketers came up with what they're missing, svelt, gossamer, go fast road bikes that'll drop buddies on the descents and still stop on a dime! Ok, cool.


In other words, the question becomes... how will these bikes perform on Mt Wilson?


----------



## No Time Toulouse

AC/DC


----------



## PBL450

SPlKE said:


> In other words, the question becomes... how will these bikes perform on Mt Wilson?


Hahaha! Especially in 44/11.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lombard

PBL450 said:


> Hahaha! Especially in *44/11*.


@Fredrico .........5.....4.....3.....2.....1.....


----------



## craiger_ny

Lombard said:


> @Fredrico .........5.....4.....3.....2.....1.....





Fredrico said:


> .
> .
> It'll break the wind
> .
> .


----------



## SPlKE

PBL450 said:


> Hahaha! Especially in 44/11.


Or even better... 11/44. So low, you could ride up walls if your tires were sticky enough.


----------



## PBL450

SPlKE said:


> Or even better... 11/44. So low, you could ride up walls if your tires were sticky enough.


When you go into 34/28 you automatically start going downhill. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> It'll break the wind.............


Jet propulsion?


----------



## Fredrico

PBL450 said:


> Hahaha! Especially in 44/11.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, man. It was 44-22 up, and 53-13 coasting down. I was on tubulars, 13-22, 53-44, flat crown Columbus SL, the same bike Eddy rode to shut down the field. The only time I actually could use the 13 cog was in a 30 mph tailwind up Rehoboth beach. It was wonderful. Had a 14-26 freewheel with a 16 tooth cog 15 years ago. Haven't seen one since. Third chain ring Granny gears were considered "bail out" for senior citizens or middle aged granola munchers. Real men trained up and had pizza and beers after the ride!


----------



## Fredrico

PBL450 said:


> When you go into 34/28 you automatically start going downhill.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Amazing how aggressive riders like to pedal downhill. I guess that's the attraction of 12 and 11 cogs! Let's be honest. How often do you actually motor along in those frightfully wimpy cogs? Come on, man!


----------



## Lombard

Fredrico said:


> No, man. It was 44-22 up, and 53-13 coasting down. I was on tubulars, 13-22, 53-44, flat crown Columbus SL, the same bike Eddy rode to shut down the field. The only time I actually could use the 13 cog was in a 30 mph tailwind up Rehoboth beach. It was wonderful. Had a 14-26 freewheel with a 16 tooth cog 15 years ago. Haven't seen one since. Third chain ring Granny gears were considered "bail out" for senior citizens or middle aged granola munchers. *Real men trained up and had pizza and beers after the ride!*


And afterwards you compared pecker sizes, right?


----------



## SPlKE

Lombard said:


> And afterwards you compared pecker sizes, right?


That goes without saying. Woof


----------



## velodog

Teri Garr...Woof


----------



## PBL450

velodog said:


> Teri Garr...Woof


So talented. Sad to see her health end her career with so many more great years possible. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## tlg

Fredrico said:


> Amazing how aggressive riders like to pedal downhill. I guess that's the attraction of 12 and 11 cogs! Let's be honest. How often do you actually motor along in those frightfully wimpy cogs? Come on, man!


Oh my this shit again.



Fredrico said:


> How often do you use that 50-11 or 34-30? How often do you climb in 39-28 for that matter? * I never see it on the MUT.*





tlg said:


> Stop riding the MUT and go out on real roads. Why do you need gears at all on a MUT?
> 
> I use 50-11 & 34-30 on virtually every ride. But then.... I never ever ride on a MUT.





Fredrico said:


> So we have two here who use their 50-11, not motoring along the flats, but descending mountains? Just for grins, huh? When going into a tuck increases speed about 2 mph? Ok.





tlg said:


> A 50-11 @ 90rpm =32mph. You don't need to descend a mountain to go 32mph. Ok, maybe you do. I don't.




*Remember folks... no truer words were ever said*


Fredrico said:


> *I'm just trolling*, messing with y'all.
> 
> I think it would be really nice to have a 34-32 gear that one could spin 90 rpm at 6 mph. i checked it out. You're going just fast enough to not tip over on the bike, but slow enough for the legs to lift against gravity without blowing up.
> 
> Climbing is going to be painful, no matter what, so rider adjusts to the pain level his legs and lungs can tolerate. On the really steep grades, a nice 34-30 or 32 would be the right gear. And with 11 speeds, heck, you wouldn't even have to give up the 16 anymore!


----------



## duriel

I can go 33!


----------



## trb3050

11spd said:


> Rash, thanks for posting this thread.
> Guys the disc versus rim brake debate started life on the Specialized forum in the new Tarmac disc thread and Rash I believe rightly moved it here for more general discussion. Nobody in the Tarmac disc thread wanted the debate and I understand that on one level as this is one of the more divisive subjects related to road bikes…rivaling electric shifting and aero versus conventionally shaped bikes.
> As backdrop, many know the rim brake Tarmac is the best selling high end race bike of all time and won the TdF twice in recent years with two separate riders.
> I want to register my vote for rim brakes. My position doesn’t have a lot to do with potentially slicing a rider in the pro peloton because we aren’t pros. Pro racing many know is a blood sport and more sharp edges over and above chainrings is a real concern for simple reason that riders end up on the deck in a pile up all the time in pro racing. So a lottery if your leg, arm or face ends up in proximity to a spinning sharp disc in a common crash. But many are divided on this issue as well and perhaps even questionable that this ‘experiment’ is currently in effect in pro cycling. I would hate to the pro that ends up being a reason for a ban on disc brakes until somebody can figure out how to put a decent guard over the disk edge that doesn’t add too much weight or aero deficit.
> With the advent of dual pivot brakes with excellent brake pad material, I am strongly in the rim brake camp along with 98% of all racers in professional cycling. Disc brakes even now allowed to be raced are about as common fenders and headlight on a race bike aka almost unseen in pro racing.
> Amateurs even more than pros will appreciate the 1 lb weight savings because of UCI weight minimum and of course there is fractional aerodynamic advantage of rim brakes as well.
> But for the average rider who doesn’t do 60 mph descents like pros do who do just fine with rim brakes, biggest issue over and above how much cheaper high quality rim brakes are compared to hydro disc, maintenance is big difference. Opus nailed it. My experience as well. Maintenance is needlessly more fussy with hydro brakes.
> Point of contention between the two braking types is, disc brakes just aren’t necessary…like putting Brembo 4 piston calipers and heavy rotors on a Toyota Corolla. Average Corolla rider will appreciate the weight savings and lack of cost not to mention added maintenance.
> So I would like to put a query out to prospective buyers of road bikes in the future. What will you buy? My theory is…disk brake high end road bikes are typically bought by weaker riders aka 16mph MUP riders. Joe six pack seduced by big brand companies getting into pocket…what they do well. Among stronger riders I ride with, disc brakes aren’t desired. So I would like to ask riders that are CAT 3 or better. What type of brakes do you prefer and what kind of brakes will be on your next road bike?
> Cheers to all persuasions.


In regards to disc vs. rim brakes, one aspect I haven't seen mentioned is the ability to just switch out different wheels with rim brakes. 
For instance, I have a vast collection of rim brake wheels-- sew-ups, clincher, lightweight, carbon, etc. which I choose depending on my ride. I don't forsee myself collecting a whole new group of disc wheels -- too expensive. 
Although I won't argue that discs are marginally better -- especially under certain circumstances (rain) -- I have never found my brakes ( dura-ace, ultegra) inadequate for any riding I do, and maintenance is a no-brainer!


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## PBL450

trb3050 said:


> In regards to disc vs. rim brakes, one aspect I haven't seen mentioned is the ability to just switch out different wheels with rim brakes.
> For instance, I have a vast collection of rim brake wheels-- sew-ups, clincher, lightweight, carbon, etc. which I choose depending on my ride. I don't forsee myself collecting a whole new group of disc wheels -- too expensive.
> Although I won't argue that discs are marginally better -- especially under certain circumstances (rain) -- I have never found my brakes ( dura-ace, ultegra) inadequate for any riding I do, and maintenance is a no-brainer!


Wait, no, no, no. Disks are better. Especially hydraulic disks. We need to over complicate a bike with additional motors and hydraulics that really do nothing in a meaningful way to improve functionality, so the bike is.... well.... Better? My cable shifting, rim braking bike works great. Hell, I built it up with external cable routing on purpose. I mean we all know that internal cable routing makes a bike batter because.... Wait, because... Aero? Weight? Because? Well, it’s just better? 

Disk brakes are so much better because manufacturers want us to accept that. Period. I have never had a situation where I questioned my braking. I’ve been on wet rain rides many times. I’ve never questioned my ability to manage my antiquated, lighter, rim brakes. 

Disks and electronic shifting don’t solve problems. They don’t improve existing performance. They are both heavy and otherwise needless. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## trb3050

PBL450 said:


> Wait, no, no, no. Disks are better. Especially hydraulic disks. We need to over complicate a bike with additional motors and hydraulics that really do nothing in a meaningful way to improve functionality, so the bike is.... well.... Better? My cable shifting, rim braking bike works great. Hell, I built it up with external cable routing on purpose. I mean we all know that internal cable routing makes a bike batter because.... Wait, because... Aero? Weight? Because? Well, it’s just better?
> 
> Disk brakes are so much better because manufacturers want us to accept that. Period. I have never had a situation where I questioned my braking. I’ve been on wet rain rides many times. I’ve never questioned my ability to manage my antiquated, lighter, rim brakes.
> 
> Disks and electronic shifting don’t solve problems. They don’t improve existing performance. They are both heavy and otherwise needless.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Internal cables are better because...they slap around inside, are much harder to replace, but they LOOK cleaner! 
Don't even get me started about electronic shifting...bloody expensive, heavy, and tie you to recharging. WTF? My Dura-Ace and Ultegra derailleurs shift perfect. And now I've read that Shimano is DROPPING mechanical Ultegra!!! ??? WTF?


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## SPlKE

PBL450 said:


> Wait, no, no, no. Disks are better. Especially hydraulic disks. We need to over complicate a bike with additional motors and hydraulics that really do nothing in a meaningful way to improve functionality, so the bike is.... well.... Better? My cable shifting, rim braking bike works great. Hell, I built it up with external cable routing on purpose. I mean we all know that internal cable routing makes a bike batter because.... Wait, because... Aero? Weight? Because? Well, it’s just better?
> 
> Disk brakes are so much better because manufacturers want us to accept that. Period. I have never had a situation where I questioned my braking. I’ve been on wet rain rides many times. I’ve never questioned my ability to manage my antiquated, lighter, rim brakes.
> 
> Disks and electronic shifting don’t solve problems. They don’t improve existing performance. They are both heavy and otherwise needless.


Well you've really gone and done it now.

The "disk brakes offer better modulation" crowd will be here shortly to "correct" you.

Good luck!

😁


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## tlg

trb3050 said:


> Internal cables are better because...they slap around inside, are much harder to replace, but they LOOK cleaner!
> Don't even get me started about electronic shifting...bloody expensive, heavy, and tie you to recharging.


Heavy? Di2 has been lighter than mechanical for quite a while.
My internal cables don't slap around. Di2 & Hydraulic cables don't need to be replaced. Internal mechanical brake cables are simple to replace.
To each their own.


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## PBL450

SPlKE said:


> Well you've really gone and done it now.
> 
> The "disk brakes offer better modulation" crowd will be here shortly to "correct" you.
> 
> Good luck!


I know. It got sleepy then someone woke it up, so I figured I’d go for it and throw in wireless shifting while we are at it? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lombard

PBL450 said:


> I know. It got sleepy then someone woke it up, so I figured I’d go for it and throw in wireless shifting while we are at it?


Let's argue about chain lube instead:









The Once and For All, End All Be All, Chain Lube Thread


White litenin. It's great. Great at everything except lubricating chains.




www.roadbikereview.com


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## PBL450

Lombard said:


> Let's argue about chain lube instead:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Once and For All, End All Be All, Chain Lube Thread
> 
> 
> White litenin. It's great. Great at everything except lubricating chains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.roadbikereview.com


I’m feeling a weight vs aero thread? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lombard

PBL450 said:


> I’m feeling a weight vs aero thread?


Time for you to create one.


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## SPlKE

Maybe a thread titled Ceramic bearings are total BS?


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## Lombard

SPlKE said:


> Maybe a thread titled Ceramic bearings are total BS?


Do your part and create one.


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## Fredrico

Well, sorry for being late to the party, but since this discussion started a while back, disc brake road bikes have gotten cool, hip, slick, and therefore lust-worthy. The calipers aren't bulky, the discs are pretty, and their proportions look good on these new finely sculpted frames. Who wouldn't love to get on one of these state of the art beauties and burn up the road? The best frames are certainly as responsive and comfortable as the best predecessors, and probably a few grams lighter. 

Durability, ease of maintenance, might be the caveat. Do I want to ride a trick bike with all the bells and whistles that I'll have to deal with when it doesn't work, or a simple machine that gets me down the road in grace and style, one I can tweak up in the stand like a musical instrument? Bikes aren't cars. They're extensions of the body, with appropriate feedback loops. One rides the bike like a horse, working as one vehicle galloping along. So I want everything to be mechanical, straightforward, simple, knowable, reliable, easily repairable. Air up the tires and go. Seems like those bikes are harder to find as the industry leaps through digital technology, one clever trick after another.

Electronics have gone through a revolution since I started out as a kid working a ham station with a knobby Morse code key that could have been used on the Titanic, using vacuum tube WW2 surplus radio equipment, and flew, teeth rattling, on DC-7s. Carbonfiber, computer chips, hydraulic disc brakes, are here to stay! There's no turning back.


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## OldChipper

It's been a couple of years now and, as I predicted back then to the "ride what you want" crowd, the marketeers have triumphed and only a very small handful of top-end frames are available with rim brakes and an even smaller selection of top end wheels. I hate to say I told you so, but... I did tell you so. Still see posts about issues with adjusting disc brakes, dragging, noisy, wheel switching, packing for travel, etc. My rim bikes are still lighter and easier in all these categories and still haven't died for lack of braking power. Oh, I know... but "modulation!" SMDH. Of course, after all the anti-vax/masking over the past two years, it should surprise me that people are gullible. How's THAT for a thread hijack! :^DDDDDD


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## lhartle1

I'm still waiting for air brakes , that's what I will be getting on my next bike .


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## Lombard

lhartle1 said:


> I'm still waiting for air brakes , that's what I will be getting on my next bike .


Will they work as well as these?


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## tlg

lhartle1 said:


> I'm still waiting for air brakes , that's what I will be getting on my next bike .


Wait no longer


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## PBL450

OldChipper said:


> It's been a couple of years now and, as I predicted back then to the "ride what you want" crowd, the marketeers have triumphed and only a very small handful of top-end frames are available with rim brakes and an even smaller selection of top end wheels. I hate to say I told you so, but... I did tell you so. Still see posts about issues with adjusting disc brakes, dragging, noisy, wheel switching, packing for travel, etc. My rim bikes are still lighter and easier in all these categories and still haven't died for lack of braking power. Oh, I know... but "modulation!" SMDH. Of course, after all the anti-vax/masking over the past two years, it should surprise me that people are gullible. How's THAT for a thread hijack! :^DDDDDD


I wouldn’t give up my discs on my MTB for money.... Road bike? Stop....My Dura Ace C-24 Al brake track has fantastic bite. I have no performance issues with other groups, but my DA brakes matched with my DA wheels Al brake track? No matter the circumstances you will not improve the performance. Marketing teams FTW.


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## Paceliner

trb3050 said:


> Internal cables are better because...they slap around inside, are much harder to replace, but they LOOK cleaner!
> Don't even get me started about electronic shifting...bloody expensive, heavy, and tie you to recharging. WTF? My Dura-Ace and Ultegra derailleurs shift perfect. And now I've read that Shimano is DROPPING mechanical Ultegra!!! ??? WTF?


Shimano might be dropping mechanical 105 for 2023 as well. Di2 for 105 is the new standard for that groupo.
Pertaining to the topic of this thread, rim and disc brakes both have their place. IMHO, cyclocross and mountain bikes benefit greatly from disc brakes due to all the mud/grime that is usually present in these events. The added weight of the disc brake setup is hardly an issue when one gathers a few pounds of mud on themself and their bike. For road bikes, it's rim brakes for general training & race day (most roadies) but disc brakes definitely add a bit of needed stopping power if doing fully-loaded touring. Rim brakes are my preferred go-to due to ease of installation, maintenance, and repair. They also look better IMHO--I can't stand the look of a bicycle wheel with discs on them.


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## Lombard

Paceliner said:


> Shimano might be dropping mechanical 105 for 2023 as well. Di2 for 105 is the new standard for that groupo.
> Pertaining to the topic of this thread, rim and disc brakes both have their place. IMHO, cyclocross and mountain bikes benefit greatly from disc brakes due to all the mud/grime that is usually present in these events. The added weight of the disc brake setup is hardly an issue when one gathers a few pounds of mud on themself and their bike. For road bikes, it's rim brakes for general training & race day (most roadies) but disc brakes definitely add a bit of needed stopping power if doing fully-loaded touring. Rim brakes are my preferred go-to due to ease of installation, maintenance, and repair. They also look better IMHO--I can't stand the look of a bicycle wheel with discs on them.


FYI, here is the sequel to this thread:









The Once and For All, End All Be All, Chain Lube Thread


White litenin. It's great. Great at everything except lubricating chains.




www.roadbikereview.com


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