# Big Mig most underrated cyclist ever?



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Out of the greats, it seems Big Mig is by far the least appreciated and most underestimated. He may have been the finest time trialist ever.

And he brought high cadence climbing to the fore (later used by Armstrong). 

Details on a 5 time winner who never seems to get his props:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Indurain

However, a good case can be made for Coppi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fausto_Coppi

Discuss.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

from Wikipedia on Coppi:



> Bill McGann wrote:
> 
> Comparing riders from different eras is a risky business subject to the prejudices of the judge. But if Coppi isn't the greatest rider of all time, then he is second only to Eddy Merckx. One can't judge his accomplishments by his list of wins because world war two interrupted his career just as world war one interrupted that of Philippe Thys. Coppi won it all: the world hour record, the world championships, the grands tours, classics as well as time trials. The great French cycling journalist, Pierre Chany says that between 1946 and 1954, once Coppi had broken away from the peloton, the peloton never saw him again. Can this be said of any other racer? Informed observers who saw both ride agree that Coppi was the more elegant rider who won by dint of his physical gifts as opposed to Merckx who drove himself and hammered his competition relentlessly by being the very embodiment of pure will.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

IMO, Mig maximized his team and planned his strategy to perfection. He didn't attack in the mountains, he just rode people off his wheel in a steady effort. He wasn't explosive and he never did more than he had to. He never won a road stage in yellow even though he was close a few times. Again, not explosive, just a steady wattage machine.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Indurain, "underrated" ????

I dunno Coolio, winning 5 Tours kind of tends to blow your cover, know what I mean?


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> Out of the greats, it seems Big Mig is by far the least appreciated and most underestimated. He may have been the finest time trialist ever.
> 
> And he brought high cadence climbing to the fore (later used by Armstrong).
> 
> ...


I'll start by saying its hard for any five time tour winner to be underrated, since he'll always be mentioned in the same breath with Anquetil, Merckx, Henault and Armstrong. He has the uncomfortable position of straddling a transition between all around riders and specialists. If you compare him to his predecessors (Hinault, Lemond, etc) he looks bad since he was never competitive in one day races. Also, his dominance was relatively short lived, as it seems like he showed up in 1990 and disappeared in 1996. Other than that he was pretty bad ass.

Coppi is pretty hard to knock, but I don't think you can play the what if game; what if Lemond hadn't gotten shot, what if Merckx hadn't hurt his back, etc. Not many people realize that Coppi won the Giro five times, before the Tour was the be all race that it is today.


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## Tugboat (Jul 17, 2006)

He's certainly not underrated in Europe and is probably one of that part of the world's most recognised sportspeople. People there know and appreciate what he achieved.

I've had the pleasure of meeting him and despite his deserved status as one of the real "superstars" of cycling, and a distinct language barrier, he was still willing to stop, have a photo taken and attempt a conversation. That's more than I can say about Armstrong.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

oh man... "what if Merckx hadn't hurt his back" indeed.

but OTOH, it seems all the greats have the common thread of overcoming some unfair adversity, that would be excuse enough to end a career. 

Coolhand - I can't recall, what did Indurain overcome?


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> I can't recall, what did Indurain overcome?


Pedro Delgado.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Tugboat said:


> He's certainly not underrated in Europe and is probably one of that part of the world's most recognised sportspeople. People there know and appreciate what he achieved.


Very true. Indurain is still a big deal in Europe, even if he has been quite in his retirement. I think would only be fans who tend to follow riders only from their country that might see him as underrated. Echavarri also was revolutionary. Banesto was the first real mega team. Their budget in the early 90's was smiler to the biggest teams today and started many of the key innovations that other teams adopted 5-10 years later. Big team buses, Wind tunnel time with the TT bike, huge team staff, true integration of the sponsor image and the team. They wrote the book.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Coppi had the good sense to die young, too


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## lalahsghost (Aug 27, 2007)

I think I am in love with everything anquetil did. He never looked like he broke a sweat in photos. His hair must have been made out of fiberglass to stay looking like that. His wife wasn't a bombshell, but she was devoted. And oh man did he have style... Anyone see Jacques Anquetil: Man Mystery Legend? His chateaus can only be dreamed of. Also every photo not taken on a bike looks like it could be in a Ralph Lauren catalog:


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## ProRoad (Oct 13, 2008)

I would have been the greatest! If I hadn't been so lazy..

Can I still be in the club?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

*Indurain still riding!*

Very funny.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2-TETODPDHk


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Creakyknees said:


> oh man... "what if Merckx hadn't hurt his back" indeed.
> 
> but OTOH, it seems all the greats have the common thread of overcoming some unfair adversity, that would be excuse enough to end a career.
> 
> Coolhand - I can't recall, what did Indurain overcome?


His size. He is probably one of the biggest riders ever to climb that well. Also, with the five in a row, he had a huge target on his back from #2 on. And yet one the next four.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Creakyknees said:


> Indurain, "underrated" ????
> 
> I dunno Coolio, winning 5 Tours kind of tends to blow your cover, know what I mean?


Yeah, but he is rarely listed amoung the greatest riders unless it is a rote list of the 5+ club of TdF winners. And he did win more then the TdF. I think because of his nice quiet personality the level of his domination seems unappreciated. Just try and find a decent Big Mig DVD set.

But, I am a bit of a fan boy for Big Mig, so I am admittedly biased a bit. 



> Spain’s Miguel Indurain, born on July 16, 1964, was the dominant Grand Tour rider in the 1990’s with seven victories in the Grand Tours.
> 
> He won five consecutive wins (1991 through 1995) in the Tour de France, Indurain being the first to accomplish this feat.
> 
> ...


http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=37


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> Very funny.
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2-TETODPDHk


nice-


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Coppi*



> Coppi’s victories include the following: two Tour de France wins along with two Mountains jersey titles; five Giro d’Italia wins, two second places, three Mountains jersey titles; first and third places in the World Championship Road Race; and a first and two second places in the Paris-Roubaix; three Milan-San Remo titles; five Tour of Lombardy titles; and a Fleche Wallonne victory.


http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=13


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I love those old videos. Early in Indurain's ride (1:08) you can see the bushes on the side of the road just whipping from the wind - I wonder it that's a crosswind or a chopper doing that. 

Johnny Bugnose was one of my fave's - incredible talent but somewhat of a head case. 

Look at Indurain's "funny bike" - that dropped head tube was all the rage, but with all the spacers and risers it ends up with a pretty normal position. 

Then Lemond for some reason with no helmet - maybe he had heard by that point that his riding style costs him time with a tt helmet? Or maybe it was just a hot day.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

*Don't forget one of Coppi's rivals....*



Coolhand said:


> http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=13


*Gino Bartali *may not have been "unerrated" perse, but had some of his best years robbed by WWII. He was the ONLY racer to win major Classics as well as Grand Tours both before and after the war, and still holds the record for most time elapsed between victories in both the Giro and the TdF. 

Won the Giro before and after the war ('36, '37, '46), 7X KOM jersey winner ........... Won the Tdf on both ends of the war ('38 and '48, 2nd to Coppi in '49), multiple winner of Milan-Sanremo (5) , Giro Lombardia (4), Zurich-Metzgete (3), Tour de Suisse (3), Italian Nat'l Champion (4),etc.....

One can only wonder "what might have been" had he not lost several of his prime racing years to the war. He and Coppi waged quite a rivalry for just a while, but Bartali was 5 years older and his career was winding down as Coppi's was just beginning to peak.


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## botto (Jul 22, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> Out of the greats, it seems Big Mig is by far the least appreciated and most underestimated. He may have been the finest time trialist ever.
> 
> And he brought high cadence climbing to the fore (later used by Armstrong).
> 
> ...


while he earned his place amongst the greats, he was painfully boring.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Yeah I get the "boring" accusation; but I also recall the stage where Indurain attacked with Bruyneel - as I recall it was a rainy, hilly intermediate stage and he ended up getting a minute or 2 out of it. That's not boring racing for a guy with Indurain's rep.

I also recall a mountain stage where he simply rode everyone off of his wheel with a nice steady tempo. Maybe not flashy as a bunch of Pantani / Rasmussen / Schleck style jumps, but still dang impressive.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

JustTooBig said:


> *Gino Bartali *may not have been "unerrated" perse, but had some of his best years robbed by WWII. He was the ONLY racer to win major Classics as well as Grand Tours both before and after the war, and still holds the record for most time elapsed between victories in both the Giro and the TdF.
> 
> Won the Giro before and after the war ('36, '37, '46), 7X KOM jersey winner ........... Won the Tdf on both ends of the war ('38 and '48, 2nd to Coppi in '49), multiple winner of Milan-Sanremo (5) , Giro Lombardia (4), Zurich-Metzgete (3), Tour de Suisse (3), Italian Nat'l Champion (4),etc.....
> 
> One can only wonder "what might have been" had he not lost several of his prime racing years to the war. He and Coppi waged quite a rivalry for just a while, but Bartali was 5 years older and his career was winding down as Coppi's was just beginning to peak.


Exactly. You gotta see 'Tour des Légendes' (DVD in Dutch, French and Italian) and read Benjo Maso's book on the 1948 Tour: 'Wij waren allemaal goden - De Tour van 1948' (We were all gods, English review: http://www.nlpvf.nl/book/book2.php?Book=334). No English translation of the book yet but there is in German 'Wir alle waren Götter' (http://www.amazon.de/dp/3936973237).


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## bdaghisallo1 (Sep 25, 2007)

I would think that Anquetil should be considered the greatest time triallist of all time. He not only dominated the time trials in the Tour, as Indurain did, but he also dominated the late season time trial events for a decade. He humiliated a field of professionals when he won the GP des Nations for the first time as a teenager. Indurain never ventured into that realm. Also, Indurain struggled to take the Hour Record and shortly after had his record obliterated by Rominger over the course of two attempts. I haven't heard anyone refer to Rominger as the greatest TTer ever. 

Also, if you want to trace the lineage of high cadence climbing, you need to go further back than Indurain. Charly Gaul used very small gears when he ruled the cols in the Tdf and the Giro, back in the late 50s.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

*Another underrated racer from the history books...*

would have to be *Joop Zoetemelk *from the Netherlands. Spent a lot of his career as a "bridesmaid", but ultimately had a record that most modern pros would kill for:

The oldest world champion at the age of 38 (1985)

Won Paris-Nice three times, the Tour de Romandie, La Fleche Wallonne, Amstel Gold, etc......... At the Vuelta, won the KOM jersey in '71 and won overall in '79 (the only two times he raced the event). ........... Won Olympic gold in the TT in 1968

But his most impressive achievements were at the TdF: 

Finished all 16 TdF's that he started. 

*ELEVEN* top-5 finishes in those 16 Tours. Yeah, that's right. Eleven.

Only one win (1980), but placed 2nd an astounding 6 times, along with three 4ths and a 5th. 

Joop retired as the DS of Rabobank in 2006 right after the Vuelta.

Ask any number of forumites to name off any pros they can think of who have finished on the podium at the TdF at least 6 times, and how many will include Joop Zoetemelk on their list? Not too many, I'd say. That, my friends, defines *UNDERRATED*.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

Susan Walker said:


> Exactly. You gotta see 'Tour des Légendes' (DVD in Dutch, French and Italian) and read Benjo Maso's book on the 1948 Tour: 'Wij waren allemaal goden - De Tour van 1948' (We were all gods, English review: http://www.nlpvf.nl/book/book2.php?Book=334). No English translation of the book yet but there is in German 'Wir alle waren Götter' (http://www.amazon.de/dp/3936973237).


I LOVE cycling history and the old film footage and books. 

Ah, if only I spoke Dutch... or French.... or Italian..... * sigh *

Can't read German either


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Great thread everyone- some really good posts here!

:thumbsup:


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Sure Mig had five Tours, but "only" twelve stage wins, ten of which were time trials.

So, exactly two non-time-trial stage wins.


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

most overlooked? All the top ladies of cycling's past and current.
They are overlooked, and underpaid just because they don't have a thing swinging between their legs.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

fleck said:


> most overlooked? All the top ladies of cycling's past and current.
> They are overlooked, and underpaid just because they don't have a thing swinging between their legs.


And because they are significantly slower.


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

pretender said:


> And because they are significantly slower.


or perhaps less dope. Oh strike that, don't want to get this off topic


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

fleck said:


> or perhaps less dope. Oh strike that, don't want to get this off topic


Don't make me post that Tammy Thomas photo.


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

pretender said:


> Don't make me post that Tammy Thomas photo.


 I knew right when i wrote that Mr. Thomas would come a calling.

saying that women aren't as fast as men doesn't equate them to being any less great at the sport. 

you bring up Tammy, I'll mention Billy Jean King
neither man nor women are 'better' at a spot. Our diffrences are notable but not something to look on as a dimishing quality. Unless of course you represent a media outlet.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

*quick! post something before another armstrong thread stays on top of this forum*

cyclinghalloffame.com has Indurain ranked 6th all time. I don't want to debate the value of cyclinghof, but does anyone have him significantly lower than this in their book?


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> Out of the greats, it seems Big Mig is by far the least appreciated and most underestimated. He may have been the finest time trialist ever.


Beg to differ. He was one of the great tt'ist's but IMO Chris Boardman (or possibly Anquetil) was probably the greatest and most consistent. At one point or another Boardman beat Indurain and all of the other great tt'ists of the time (Olano, Zulle, Armstrong, Rominger, etc.). He probably also has more tt wins to his name than any other rider. Indurain did make his tt wins count though.

I'd say that he gets as much recogniton as he deserves considering that he has the least "glamorous" palmares out of all of the 5x TdF winners. Still an amazing cyclist and from what a friend whom has met him told me, a very modest, down to earth guy.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

I think the call to look at Anquetil as the possible greatest TT have merit. Given the time between their Eras it may be hard to argue convincingly either way- both have clear merit.

As to Boardman et al, maybe we should have at "at least one GT" qualifier to keep the field manageable.

How about Eddy pre-back injury? How good was his TT chops?


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> How about Eddy pre-back injury? How good was his TT chops?


Forget 'pre', he was a god 'post'! Look at the hour record.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Susan Walker said:


> Forget 'pre', he was a god 'post'! Look at the hour record.


Reason I ask is that I read the injury effected how low he could get, and he did some alteration to his TT position post-injury. 

So I wondered if he pre-injury TT's were faster?

Obviously, injury or not, he was the best cyclist to ever clip-in.

:thumbsup:


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## lalahsghost (Aug 27, 2007)

Wikipedia said:


> "In 1965, Anquetil won the eight-day Alpine Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré stage race at 3pm, sat through two hours of interviews and receptions, took a 6:30pm chartered flight to Bordeaux and won the world's longest single-day classic, Bordeaux-Paris the following day. The race started at night and continued, from soon after dawn, behind derny motorcycle pacers. Few people realised it at the time but he had to make the long journey to Maubeuge in north-eastern France where the following day he was riding a criterium." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Anquetil#Dauphin.C3.A9_and_Bordeaux-Paris_double


Lets see any rider in today's world do that... >.>;;


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Merckx supposedlyused to ride from Belgium to Italy to compete in the Giro.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Good point about Big Mig. When my cycling friends and I start arguing about great riders, his name usually takes awhile to come up.

Coppi on the other hand, could have been the greatest ever. He lost 4 years of his late 20s, and he surely could have won significantly more races.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

May I also bring up Felice Gimondi ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felice_Gimondi

Won all three GTs, the World Championship, Paris Roubaix, Lombardia, Milan San Remo, and several other big wins. He rode during the 60s and 70s, which is a virtual who's who of big time racers.

How many times is he bought up as one of the all time greats?


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

Einstruzende said:


> May I also bring up Felice Gimondi ...


Here's a picture.


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

Susan Walker said:


> Here's a picture.


I question the quality of his fitting to that bike.
but hey, perhaps it works for him.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

fleck said:


> I question the quality of his fitting to that bike.
> but hey, perhaps it works for him.


You can't tell whether a bike fits from a picture!


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## lalahsghost (Aug 27, 2007)

fleck said:


> I question the quality of his fitting to that bike.
> but hey, perhaps it works for him.





function said:


> You can't tell whether a bike fits from a picture!


Lies. His seat is too high, as CreakyKnees would tell you.


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## prefect80 (Jul 25, 2011)

JustTooBig said:


> would have to be *Joop Zoetemelk *from the Netherlands. Spent a lot of his career as a "bridesmaid", but ultimately had a record that most modern pros would kill for:
> 
> The oldest world champion at the age of 38 (1985)
> 
> ...


Too bad he cracked his skull in a crash. He lost his sense of smell and his ability to recuperiate after that. He was the real deal.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*indeed*



prefect80 said:


> Too bad he cracked his skull in a crash. He lost his sense of smell and his ability to recuperiate after that. He was the real deal.


and Joop like Poulidor was a great rider in the same time as a phenom. He gave Hinault a scare more than once

another under rated cyclist: Adri Van Der Poel


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> And he brought high cadence climbing to the fore (later used by Armstrong).


I don't recall Indurain having a high cadence when climbing. I thought he climbed more like Ullrich, more "diesel style".


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> I think the call to look at Anquetil as the possible greatest TT have merit. Given the time between their Eras it may be hard to argue convincingly either way- both have clear merit.
> 
> As to Boardman et al, maybe we should have at "at least one GT" qualifier to keep the field manageable.
> 
> How about Eddy pre-back injury? How good was his TT chops?


I'd say Merckx is the greatest TT rider ever. The litmus test for this is the hour record. His 1972 ride is amazing - nearly a .5 watt/kg greater than Indurain. That's a huge difference at that level. Rominger is higher, but he was doped to the gills and deserves an *.


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

lalahsghost said:


> I think I am in love with everything anquetil did. He never looked like he broke a sweat in photos. His hair must have been made out of fiberglass to stay looking like that. His wife wasn't a bombshell, but she was devoted. And oh man did he have style... Anyone see Jacques Anquetil: Man Mystery Legend? His chateaus can only be dreamed of. Also every photo not taken on a bike looks like it could be in a Ralph Lauren catalog:


You mean everything Anquetil did on a bike, right?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*which further forwards*



Einstruzende said:


> May I also bring up Felice Gimondi ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felice_Gimondi
> 
> Won all three GTs, the World Championship, Paris Roubaix, Lombardia, Milan San Remo, and several other big wins. He rode during the 60s and 70s, which is a virtual who's who of big time racers.
> 
> How many times is he bought up as one of the all time greats?


the greatness of Merckx
he was beating some legendary riders, not a bunch of slouches


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