# Armstrong On "Today"



## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

As Armstrong might say, you will either love the interview or hate it. He is still Armstrong. Shades of Gray?



https://www.today.com/news/lance-armstrong-i-don-t-feel-failure-wake-doping-scandal-t144620


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Watching it this morning. He says 'half the room says stop, you've apologized enough .. and the other half says you can't apologize enough'. My wife looks at me and says 'I've never heard him apologize'.


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## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

WTF - A freight train with only 3 cars??? I live near a track and the typical freight train is 2-3 miles long.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Its kind of an intransigent thing really. Armstrong dominated in a time of doping and the cycling establishment took him down. When you see him interviewed he seems like a perfectly rational guy. He believes he would have won either way...with doping...he was the doping champion as good at doping as he was at bike riding...or without doping....if the rest of the peloton didn't dope.

I kind of see his side. It was the the do gooders near him I presume who wanted some of his fame that threatened to blow the whistle. What did they have to lose versus Armstrong? They had nothing to lose and Armstrong had everything to lose because he was the big winner.

Many layers to this. It comes down to how ruthless Armstrong was to protect the canard that he raced clean and cycling was clean. Neither was true. 

On one level certainly not fair to Armstrong because so many doped but many believe Armstrong's ruthless tactics were so beyond the pale he deserved to be taken down.

Pretty clear, Armstrong believes he won those 7 TdF's and people asking for contrition either don't understand what happened or don't accept it. I am sure Armstrong feels he is being scapegoated for doping in cycling and of course had a big target on his back because he both won and was an American competing in the backyard of the Tour in France.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lots of sociopaths have legions of sycophants.

Nothing to see here.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

11spd said:


> Its kind of an intransigent thing really. Armstrong dominated in a time of doping and the cycling establishment took him down. When you see him interviewed he seems like a perfectly rational guy. He believes he would have won either way...with doping...he was the doping champion as good at doping as he was at bike riding...or without doping....if the rest of the peloton didn't dope.
> 
> I kind of see his side. It was the the do gooders near him I presume who wanted some of his fame that threatened to blow the whistle. What did they have to lose versus Armstrong? They had nothing to lose and Armstrong had everything to lose because he was the big winner.
> 
> ...


Probably one of your best posts, IMHO. As you said, it is a circumstance with many nuances, but ultimately it comes down to (for me, and I suspect many others) that part in bold.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I don't buy the 'they were all doing it so the playing field was level' argument. It's not like everyone was getting the same shot, pill or patch. He was a mediocre rider and an exceptional doper. Had everyone been clean back in that day, he would not have won the TDF 7 times ... or probably even once. He had his own doping doctor and the entire team was on the program. I never believed that he was racing clean from the get go.

I must admit though, watching those TDF races from back then was pretty exciting compared to these days. I barely pay attention to it anymore.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

BlazingPedals said:


> WTF - A freight train with only 3 cars??? I live near a track and the typical freight train is 2-3 miles long.


well this is misplaced comment!


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## Clipped_in (May 5, 2011)

pmf said:


> Watching it this morning. He says 'half the room says stop, you've apologized enough .. and the other half says you can't apologize enough'. *My wife looks at me and says 'I've never heard him apologize'*.


You are married to Betsy Andreu?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

What about the sh8t that Sky is doing? Armstong may be a cheat, but IMO he doesn't need to apologize to the public seeing how doping is still rampant. I know if I were in his position, I wouldn't apologize to the public. However, on personal level, I would try my best to make mends with the others like Lemond, Betsy, Hamilton. Bottomline is he's damaged good, he knows it, public knows it, opinions have already been formed and solidify. No need to him to try to mend with the public by any apology at this point. Time to move on with life (which he's doing).

But Sky....


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Clipped_in said:


> You are married to Betsy Andreu?


No, she wasn't throwing stuff at the TV screen.


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

11spd said:


> Its kind of an *intransigent* thing really.


Is that the word you meant to use?


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Armstrong was a jackass and a bully. I was elated when that clown got his titles taken away.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Apologizing isn't enough. That's getting off easy.

To show real contrition, there has to be RESTITUTION. Instead, everyone else gets nothing, Lance retains his millions.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

When will he just STFU and disappear, like Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose (mostly) did?


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

No Time Toulouse said:


> When will he just STFU and disappear, like Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose (mostly) did?


thank dog that OJ knew when to STFU.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

can't spare any contempt or disdain for LA, Trump gets all of it...


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

One of the things that still bother me in his case is the lack of a positive test (as defined by the standards of the day).

I'm not a lawyer but outside of a world created by various cycling agencies, doping agencies and the country of France, a prosecutor might only have had a flimsy circumstantial case in a purely US court. Indeed, it sometimes seems as though "the evidence showed that the only way he could have won 7 tours was by doping".


Also, I've been suspicious of the apparent size of such a conspiracy especially over such a long timespan. 


FREE MEEK MIL.. I MEAN LANCE ARMSTRONG!!!


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

so the doping forum is in here now? No longer in the 'doping forum'?


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

BCSaltchucker said:


> so the doping forum is in here now? No longer in the 'doping forum'?


It's better than Politics. Oh wait, someone mentioned Trump up the line in their insightful post. 

IMO Armstrong was unconditionally the most talented and greatest Tour de France Rider ever. Period. 

Some agree with me. Some disagree. Others are somewhere in between. Those that make it a life or death level debate need help.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Very few of us saw or recall seeing him race before his cancer. I did, and he was mediocre. Watched him finish dead last in Montreal.

Like someone else here said, when his TDF successes came around, I never had a doubt that he was on the programme.


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

11spd said:


> Its kind of an intransigent thing really. Armstrong dominated in a time of doping and the cycling establishment took him down. When you see him interviewed he seems like a perfectly rational guy. He believes he would have won either way...with doping...he was the doping champion as good at doping as he was at bike riding...or without doping....if the rest of the peloton didn't dope.


The shades of history don't favor his views... He was an absolute nobody before he doped and now he's pretty much a nobody after he doped and the whole world found out. He's the guy you see at the local crit track that was middle of the pack and would be a one hit wonder before he got on the juice... but he's the same guy you see come back after 6months and know that they're on the juice but due to the lack of drug testing you can never prove anything.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

1500SLR said:


> The shades of history don't favor his views... He was an absolute nobody before he doped and now he's pretty much a nobody after he doped and the whole world found out. He's the guy you see at the local crit track that was middle of the pack and would be a one hit wonder before he got on the juice... but he's the same guy you see come back after 6months and know that they're on the juice but due to the lack of drug testing you can never prove anything.


aaaaahh, I remember the Festina scandal, with Virenque's tearful interviews... maybe that is Armstrong's failing... not enuff tears.


Looks as those of you using Uber, saved Armstrong.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-uber-investment-saved-my-family/


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

Akirasho said:


> aaaaahh, I remember the Festina scandal, with Virenque's tearful interviews... maybe that is Armstrong's failing... not enuff tears.
> 
> 
> Looks as those of you using Uber, saved Armstrong.
> ...


There's always one guy, who is probably from Texas, who believes in Lance. His wiki says it all though really. Before Johan Bruyneel Lance had one rainbow jersey and was considered a mediocre tour rider. I'm sure he also has plenty of millions to support his family though... Who I feel sorry for is the one person who test after test has not proved to be on the gear and that's Australia's Cadel Evans who should have had an extra grand tour win and maybe a couple more with his second place in 2007 and 2008.



> At the [1993] Tour de France, in the stage from Châlons-sur-Marne to Verdun. [Lance Armstrong] was 97th in the general classification when he retired after stage 12.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong


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## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> well this is misplaced comment!


Really! I'm not sure how it got in this thread!


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Akirasho said:


> One of the things that still bother me in his case is the lack of a positive test (as defined by the standards of the day).
> 
> I'm not a lawyer but outside of a world created by various cycling agencies, doping agencies and the country of France, a prosecutor might only have had a flimsy circumstantial case in a purely US court. Indeed, it sometimes seems as though "the evidence showed that the only way he could have won 7 tours was by doping".
> 
> ...


Lance tested positive for corticosteroids....but he had a "prescription" (backdated) so all was forgiven...


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

aclinjury said:


> What about the sh8t that Sky is doing? Armstong may be a cheat, but IMO he doesn't need to apologize to the public seeing how doping is still rampant.


Based on this logic, I don't really need to follow the traffic laws in our country. I see so many people violate laws (rules), so I should just do it too.


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## Clipped_in (May 5, 2011)

GlobalGuy said:


> It's better than Politics. Oh wait, someone mentioned Trump up the line in their insightful post.
> 
> IMO Armstrong was unconditionally the most talented and greatest Tour de France Rider ever. Period.
> 
> Some agree with me. Some disagree. Others are somewhere in between. *Those that make it a life or death level debate need help.*


Well, we can certainly agree on that!

There was a local businessman here that actually made a death threat against Travis Tygart. It looked like the guy was going to do some jail time but in the end I think he got off with probation.

...Needs serious help!!!


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Lance's World Championship was likely tainted by doping, by his own admission. He was a potential Classics contender, but the vast majority of his career was so so skewed by doping that we'll never know how much he would have achieved as a professional. My guess? A mid-tier rider. A GT contender? Not without Dr Ferrari and a cast of enablers.

I just want him to go away. Quietly. Fade from the public consciousness. I'd rather not be called "Lance" by the random ******* on the road, and have them revert to questioning my sexuality.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm not a LA fan, but he helped define the sport and the industry behind it: The good and the bad- in ways that even Merchx, Pantani, Coppi, Hinault Lemond, and others couldn't. He made Trek the powerhouse they are today, and he is the reason so many riders are riding today here in the US. I remember Lance as a Junior racer. He was really cocky, but the dude showed a lot of talent. I remember riding the bike trails here and seeing maybe 50 riders on a 20 mile Trek down to the beach and back; Now I see 50 riders in the first 5 miles off my ride. That's the Lance Factor. They knew he was doping. I would bet that even Trek knew to some degree and they turned a blind eye to it. The billions he brought into the cycling industry is unmatched by anyone before or after. I'm a Lemond fan. He was my idol when I started racing back in 1988. Greg was the first to race on a carbon bike: Lance was the first to make you want one. Bicycle technology is advancing the way it has because of him. Many will argue that but let's face it: The technological advancements in the last 15 years surpasses anything done in the previous 50 years. The Lance factor is largely responsible for that. Most Americans (and most others in the world) could've cared less before that.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Have to disagree strongly. Saw him get severely beat up in NE crits when with Eddie B. at Subaru Montgomery and later saw him suffer in Montreal.

Guess you forget San Sebastian. Let's face it, there was a big difference pre and post cancer.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

terbennett said:


> I'm not a LA fan, but he helped define the sport and the industry behind it: The good and the bad- in ways that even Merchx, Pantani, Coppi, Hinault Lemond, and others couldn't. He made Trek the powerhouse they are today, and he is the reason so many riders are riding today here in the US. I remember Lance as a Junior racer. He was really cocky, but the dude showed a lot of talent. I remember riding the bike trails here and seeing maybe 50 riders on a 20 mile Trek down to the beach and back; Now I see 50 riders in the first 5 miles off my ride. That's the Lance Factor. They knew he was doping. I would bet that even Trek knew to some degree and they turned a blind eye to it. The billions he brought into the cycling industry is unmatched by anyone before or after. I'm a Lemond fan. He was my idol when I started racing back in 1988. Greg was the first to race on a carbon bike: Lance was the first to make you want one. Bicycle technology is advancing the way it has because of him. Many will argue that but let's face it: The technological advancements in the last 15 years surpasses anything done in the previous 50 years. The Lance factor is largely responsible for that. Most Americans (and most others in the world) could've cared less before that.


I think you nailed it. 
My biking interest was entirely devoted to mountain biking prior to Lance (even though I trained for another sport on a (seemingly) cast iron Centurion prior to 85). 

I never expected Lance to be anything other than a douche bag--pretty much like every other roadie I met in the bike shops in the 80's and early 90's. 

Lance made watching the TDF a tradition on July mornings with the wife and I and we'd tilt the bed up, get some OJ, and watch the races religiously. My wife would keep the reruns on all day. We've been hooked every since but have no illusions that any professional sports are clean. 

We do find the eventual damage done by PEDs to be a sad trade off for short lived fame. But, when we see how effed up a large portion of society has become because of drugs and alcohol, the attempt to get an artificial high is a far more damaging and pathetic pursuit.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

The PR world recognized Lance as a product.
*prod·uct /ˈprädəkt/ noun*
1. an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.

The American public bought it, and it flung the doors wide open on a vast marketplace that had never been fully tapped for the UCI. The TV coverage certainly got better. It certainly wasn't the first "10 speed" revolution we'd seen, but it was probably the first we could attribute to one person. LeMond didn't have that kind of presence, and a bunch of guys with funny names just didn't inspire like the fabricated persona that was Lance.

Did it positively affect the popularity of the sport in traditional cycling nations? Not really. They recognized Lance for what he was and is.

And now we're contracting to pretty much where we were before Lance. Eric Min gets more people on bikes day after day than Lance does. The world has moved on, and I'd rather Lance and his generation just fade off into a distant, unpleasant memory.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Alaska Mike said:


> The PR world recognized Lance as a product.
> *prod·uct /ˈprädəkt/ noun*
> 1. an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.
> 
> ...


Eric Min should thank Lance as well, since the idea for his business nor it's success would've been achieved had it not been for a cyclist like Lance that made it possible. It's actual bike riders that made Zwift what it is. Again, the Lance Factor. You can wish for it to fade away, but that's like wishing that Eddy Merchx's legacy would fade away. Those milestones (good or bad) made cycling what it is today and help guide the future of cycling.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Yeah, well, Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose each made baseball famous in their day..........and Mussolini 'made the trains run on time', too.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

terbennett said:


> Eric Min should thank Lance as well, since the idea for his business nor it's success would've been achieved had it not been for a cyclist like Lance that made it possible. It's actual bike riders that made Zwift what it is. Again, the Lance Factor. You can wish for it to fade away, but that's like wishing that Eddy Merchx's legacy would fade away. Those milestones (good or bad) made cycling what it is today and help guide the future of cycling.


I'd say cycling was on a low ebb, between booms, when Zwift came on the scene. Zwift's rise was more of a technological phenomenon than one somehow driven by a Lance hangover. It's like saying Soul Cycle should cut Armstrong a check for whatever success they have achieved. Zwift quickly became a global "thing" (as in during beta), in places where Lance never defined cycling's popularity. Thing is, most Zwift users aren't the typical MAMIL racer wannabe type, and didn't get into cycling because of Lance.

I'm not trying to whitewash history. You can't undo the past. I'd just rather not have cycling continued to be associated with him in any way shape or form. Take your Uber millions and just go away. There are better voices and faces out there to represent cycling that don't have Lance's baggage.

Lance's doping was a perfect storm of what had been building in cycling for a couple decades (in terms of blood doping), the right doctor, and the right physiology to maximize hi-test doping's effectiveness. Lance douchebaggery was something he brought to the table all by himself. 

Eddy? The guy who "made the introduction" between Lance and Ferrari? Served his own suspension for doping back in the day? I just got a signed lithograph of him and a bobblehead in the mail. Merckx was not toxic for cycling in the way Lance has been. I'd be proud to be called Merckx by a ******* in a pickup when I'm out riding. Don't see that happening, but it would be cool.

I don't really hate the dopers that played the game as it was taught to them. If I did, I'd have very few professional cyclists to admire. They may have stolen a slot from a more talented rider and perpetuated the doping arms race, but I understand the motivation. Often it's mere survival in a cut-throat sport you've dedicated your life to. Douchebags like Lance? Easy to dislike.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

I've been trying to avoid anything Armstrong related as I've been so disappointed in him, but this interview gave me a better understanding of how he got where he did why it was so hard for him to "take the clean path" so many of us wish he had taken.

I think he deserves all the punishment and judgement he has received so far, and he even seems to think the same. He cheated, he knows it, now it's time to pay the Piper. If we are ever to get rid of doping in cycling, we can't just give riders a small slap on the wrist... I'm quite fine with banning them from racing.

However, who am I to point fingers at him? Have I ever done something stupid for my own gain and hoped that no one would catch me? Shamefully, I have.

I can sympathize with his poor decision to start doping to win the Tour rather than go home and instantly lose the cycling career he worked so hard for all in an effort to "do the right thing". For most of us who've lost a job or risked losing a job, it's a [email protected] scary thing when there is no "Plan B". If Lance can't make a living at cycling, then what? We all know that life doesn't end when you lose your job, but in the moment when one's career is at risk, we imagine all sorts of worst-case scenarios in our heads and suddenly "cheating just a little" might not seem so bad.

Anyway, I'm far from becoming a Lance supporter, but if I ever met him in real life, I also wouldn't be one of those haters that start chanting threats at him in a bar or restaurant. 

Pretty much the only thing I think Lance could and should do to make amends would be to apologize to Greg LeMond. I used to think Greg LeMond was a sore loser that couldn't stand seeing his records fall... but now I know better.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I really have trouble hating the riders who doped, simply because they doped.

That said, I don't want them involved in professional cycling, simply because they doped. That includes Lance, Riis, Floyd, Capt Sideburns, or any of the countless others that are "trying to make amends" for their past misdeeds or "fix a broken system". Sorry, you were part of the problem. This applies the most to Lance, because of his past history as a bully, sociopath, and dope pusher.

Doctors, coaches, and other support personnel that aided the doping boom in the EPO/transfusion era should also be excluded.

None of this will ever happen, because they're all too intertwined with the sport's roots, and tearing them down would end more than a few of the top teams- effectively killing the UCI. Too much money at stake for that to happen.


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