# Phil's Tenacious oil, secret unlocked?



## ARP

What the hell is it? Is it a grease substitute? Sticky and lubricating like grease, flows like oil? If so I think I have unlocked the secret recipe at a fraction of the cost.

It all started out with me still trying to track down a ticking clicking noise in my Ti bike since last year April(whole long thread on all I have tried and failed at correcting the problem). The problem was just as bad as it has ever been this weekend but I just ignored it as there was nothing I could do about it and I refused to let it ruin my ride. This morning I decided to service the wheelset i used this weekend and take it one step further and try a different wheelset. So I removed the Oddsandendos set (DT Swiss R 1.1 rims/Speedcific hubs) lub the freehub and just inspect everything. On the carriage of the freehub there were some marks that appear to be from a cassette that somehow moved and cut into the splines of the freehub carriage. Left little sharp points of metal sticking up and prevented the last spacer of the cassette to be removed. I filed those off and cleaned out any old grease, read the Speedcific website about which type of lube to use on the pawls of the freehub (Phils or a light grease was mentioned) so I decided that I will try some Lucas oil stabilizer. Hmmmmmm.....fluid like thick oil, honey like consistency, sticky like grease............Hmmmm...........you use it in your auto crankcase as an oil substitute. (By the way, anyone who says the stuff is snake oil has never had ticking valves like I had on my 1990 Mazda w/163,000 miles on it, go silent and not return) . Bottom line is I have it in my freehub pawls and will try it and see how it works.


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## Sixty Fiver

Bike specific lubes usually differ from other lubricants in one way... price.

I work in a shop that builds industrial bearings and the costs on our lubricants is significantly less than what you pay for something like Phil's and is designed to handle loads and conditions that far exceeds what one will ever see on a bicycle.


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## PeanutButterBreath

Sixty Fiver said:


> I work in a shop that builds industrial bearings and the costs on our lubricants is significantly less than what you pay for something like Phil's and is designed to handle loads and conditions that far exceeds what one will ever see on a bicycle.


Are you comparing apples to apples? Tiny retail bottle vs. indutrial quanties? Full retail vs. wholesale? Just curious.

I'm sure there are cheaper alternatives for anyone who cares to cook one up. On the other hand, get the viscosity wrong in your freehub body and you could be in for a nasty surprise.


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## Sixty Fiver

PBB - I think you meant apples and oranges...

I am pretty convinced that Phil's and Park's grease are simply repackaged products that are sold at a huge markup.

Phil's grease looks and performs much like Exxon / Esso's Unirex EP2 grease - we use this in a wide range of applications and use it in bearings that have to withstand massive loads and brutal operating conditions that would far exceed anything you'd experience on a bicycle. 

One of the smaller bearings assemblies we make goes into the swivel of a block / hook combination that has to withstand operating loads of 250 tons and will fail load tests if it cannot withstand loads of 375 tons. The sheer strength of the main shaft of this unit is rated at 850 tons and slides along on a film of EP2 that is virtually impossible to displace with water and is truly tenacious stuff.

16 oz of this stuff costs $9.00 Cdn which is still cheaper than Park's or Phil's.

Marine bearing grease is as good as it gets for bicycle wheel bearings and can be bought at Home Depot for all of $3.00 per 16 oz whereas the same quantity of Park's Polylube runs $10.00 and Phils costs $15.00.

So I can't see spending two to three times as much money for bike specific products that have less pricey equivalents that will do the same job.


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## Cory

*I think Phil's Tenacious is STP in drag.*

I have a little bottle I threw into an order to get to the "free shipping" point, and I've used it in things like the pedals on my beater, when they needed a little lube but I didn't want to tear them down and rebuild. If you put it in one end and prop them up vertically, it will ooze down to the other end overnight and you're good for another few months. I dunno how it works in things like wheel bearings--seems a little thin, but I imagine it clings enough to coat the balls (FWIW, I use StaLube Marine Grease, made for boat trailers, for just about everything. It's about five bucks for a lifetime supply).
When I saw the Phil's, though, it looked hauntingly familiar, and finally I recognized it: It looks and feels like STP, which we used to put in old cars in the vain hope that it would stop them from burning oil. I don't even know if it's still made, but if that's it, Phil's making a bundle on the repackaging.
Bike lubrication isn't really much of a trick, by the way. The stresses are a fraction of those in cars and other applications, and almost anything will work.


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## Sixty Fiver

Just doing some price checking...

Mobil 1 synthetic grease costs less than $5.00 for 12 oz and is also suitable for low temperature applications.

CRC marine grease costs $3.79 for 14 oz.

On the Phil's tenacious oil (the original query)... 

It is much like if not identical to chainsaw oil which costs 10.00 for 128 oz (8 cents per ounce).

Phil's tenacious oil costs $6.50 for the 4 ounce size and that works out out over 1.60 an ounce.


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## ARP

*The mazda I use the Lucas stuff in*

I change the oil once a year, drive it about 4K miles a year if that. So I got alot of the Lucas stuff sitting and I may fill up a spare bottle to use with bike stuff. Speedcific hubs, the directions say to NOT use wheel bearing grease/marine grease to lube the freehub pawls, might cause failure/damage. It suggests light weight grease or Phils oil. The bearings are cartridge type so there is no adjustments. The whole hub comes apart using a 5 and 6mm allen wrench. Nice piece of engineering, really simple design, easy to work upon. 

I in general don't get all excited and caught up in what is the best lube to use, this stuff is sitting around and I figured it worked on the mazda why not the bike? One lube I really do not like is triflow. Seems to turn everything into a dirty mess.


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## PeanutButterBreath

Lone Gunman said:


> I in general don't get all excited and caught up in what is the best lube to use, this stuff is sitting around and I figured it worked on the mazda why not the bike?


The reason I would be wary of using it in a freehub is because if it is too sticky (or becomes stickier over time) your pawls could suddenly fail to engage causing, as Shimano might put it, loss of control resulting in serious injury or death.

I bought a 4 oz. bottle of Phil's a couple years ago for about 5 bucks. I've used it a couple times and lent it to others even more than that and there are probably 3 oz. left. Evidently, I could have bought a whole quart of a superficially similar product for only twice the price.  :mad2:


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## Dave Hickey

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I bought a 4 oz. bottle of Phil's a couple years ago for about 5 bucks. I've used it a couple times and lent it to others even more than that and there are probably 3 oz. left. Evidently, I could have bought a whole quart of a superficially similar product for only twice the price.  :mad2:



+1... I use Phils oil on small parts like derailleur jockey wheels... I just used some today on an old Dura Ace derailleur... I paid $5 for my Phil's oil about 4 years ago and it's still half full


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## Mark McM

*Phil's Tenacious Oil = Bar And Chain Oil*

Phil's Tenacious Oil is basically a re-packaged bar and chain oil. Bar and chain oils are used on chainsaws and are a light oil with additives to make it adhere to metal better. The idea is to have a "sticky" oil that won't get flung off a moving chainsaw. Some makers of bar and chain oil even recommend them for bicycle chains:

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/abc.aspx


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## PeanutButterBreath

Mark McM said:


> Some makers of bar and chain oil even recommend them for bicycle chains:
> 
> https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/abc.aspx


So you consider Tenacious Oil a good chain lube? :skep:

Here is what Phil Wood says about it
<li>Our base oil has been produced for us by the same independent California refinery since 1971 
<li>Our chemist performs final blending of rust inhibitors and extreme wear additives in our factory

So the armchair refiners around here are calling these claims lies? Specifically the latter?

Personally, I don't know or care even if PW was repackaging a less expensive product. That they have taken the trouble to identify a good forumla and package it in useful quantities is worth the price to me. I'll take Phil Wood's experience designing some of the most durable hubs on the market over any conspiracy theories.


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## Kerry Irons

*More to the point*



PeanutButterBreath said:


> So you consider Tenacious Oil a good chain lube? :skep:
> 
> Here is what Phil Wood says about it
> <li>Our base oil has been produced for us by the same independent California refinery since 1971
> <li>Our chemist performs final blending of rust inhibitors and extreme wear additives in our factory
> 
> So the armchair refiners around here are calling these claims lies? Specifically the latter?


All that aside, I have yet to see the bicycle application where PW Tenacious Oil offers any noticeable advantage over "ordinary" oil. Not saying it's bad stuff, just that I don't see where it brings much to the party.


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## curlybike

*Besides*



PeanutButterBreath said:


> So you consider Tenacious Oil a good chain lube? :skep:
> 
> Here is what Phil Wood says about it
> <li>Our base oil has been produced for us by the same independent California refinery since 1971
> <li>Our chemist performs final blending of rust inhibitors and extreme wear additives in our factory
> 
> So the armchair refiners around here are calling these claims lies? Specifically the latter?
> 
> Personally, I don't know or care even if PW was repackaging a less expensive product. That they have taken the trouble to identify a good forumla and package it in useful quantities is worth the price to me. I'll take Phil Wood's experience designing some of the most durable hubs on the market over any conspiracy theories.


The green bottle is neat. If you ever get a chance, try their handcleaner, That is some fine stuff that works great.


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## jmoryl

Hmmm, I have a chemistry degree. Wonder if I should apply for a job as Phil Wood's chemist? Sound like it might be up there with the Maytag repairman in pressure.


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## ghostzapper2007

Kerry Irons said:


> All that aside, I have yet to see the bicycle application where PW Tenacious Oil offers any noticeable advantage over "ordinary" oil. Not saying it's bad stuff, just that I don't see where it brings much to the party.



Yep. A lot of markup for a name.


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## wim

*Don't do it.*



jmoryl said:


> Hmmm, I have a chemistry degree. Wonder if I should apply for a job as Phil Wood's chemist? Sound like it might be up there with the Maytag repairman in pressure.


Your hunch is correct. Industry buzz had it that the last chemist to hire on with Phil Wood spent only one day blending rust inhibitors and extreme wear additives into a 5,000 US gallon vat of tenacious oil. Then, under the "performs other duties as assigned" clause, he was given a #00 red sable paint brush and a gallon of red enamel and told to fill in the "Phil" engraving on 10,000 hubs. Needless to say, he walked.


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## Dave Hickey

Legend has it that the chemist was a free spirit. One day he painted some black hubs with white "Phil"... Of course he got fired and those hubs became instant collectors items and now sell for 2X their original price on eBay


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## jmoryl

wim said:


> Your hunch is correct. Industry buzz had it that the last chemist to hire on with Phil Wood spent only one day blending rust inhibitors and extreme wear additives into a 5,000 US gallon vat of tenacious oil. Then, under the "performs other duties as assigned" clause, he was given a #00 red sable paint brush and a gallon of red enamel and told to fill in the "Phil" engraving on 10,000 hubs. Needless to say, he walked.


That "perfoms other duties as assigned" clause is always the kicker. I'd be out the door after they saw my work with the #00 brush.....unless Phil wants to go off in the Dario Pegoretti/Jackson Pollack direction.


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## wim

jmoryl said:


> That "perfoms other duties as assigned" clause is always the kicker. I'd be out the door after they saw my work with the #00 brush.....unless Phil wants to go off in the Dario Pegoretti/Jackson Pollack direction.


LOL, what with the black hubs mentioned by Dave and your Jack-the-Dripper style hubs, the art market would never be the same.

Literal-minded me wouldn't have lasted one hour. After reading "our chemist performs final blending of rust inhibitors and extreme wear additives in our factory," I would have added 5 ml of hydrochloric acid to each bottle of oil. How was I supposed to know that Phil meant ". . . wear _inhibiting_ additives?"


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## Chompers

All you need to know it's Phil Wood. Since I got my first set of Phil Wood hubs in 1979. From what I've seen since getting my first job in a bike shop in 84. 

Phil Wood = Class. 

I admit I don't know the first thing about the chemistry involved to make oil, but from what I've seen from Phil Wood over the years, I feel I can can just assume it's the best. I know it's bad to just assume, but in this case I feel you can. 

Phil Wood might be expensive, but well worth it. If you buy a set of their hubs, they will give you service well beyond what you will get from Shimano, and I might even dare to say Campagnolo.


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## Spinfinity

*fwiw*

I use Phil Woods Tenacious oil for the chain on my commuter. It hangs on, especially in wet weather, better than anything else I've tried. It picks up more dirt than lighter lubes, but I can live with that on the commuter.

On all other bikes I use Air Tool Oil. Usually it's about $5.00 for a 16 oz bottle. It attracts less dirt than most wet lubes and runs quieter and longer than most dry lubes which makes it a good compromise. I've tried several different brands and all seem much the same.


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## jmoryl

So, just who is Phil Woods, anyway? Has anyone here met the guy?

He does make nice hubs, but major demerits for not making them in the Campy flavor.


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## Sixty Fiver

I would never argue that Phil Wood's products aren't first rate but only have an issue with the cost since we already know that there are comparable, if not identical, products that cost much less.

I've been drilling and tapping an inordinate number of holes at work lately and got to looking at our tapping oil which is like honey in consistency and tenacious as Phil's oil.

My field tests on this oil as a bike lube will be starting shortly and I'm also in the process of testing some organic soya based lube.


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## wim

> _So, just who is Phil Woods, anyway? Has anyone here met the guy?_


All I know that Phil Wood was part of that group of bicycle guys whose lives came together for a while in California's Santa Clara Valley (San Jose, Cupertino, Los Gatos, Palo Alto and other places) in the mid- and late 1970s. I think at one time Phil Wood, Jim Blackburn, Tom Ritchey, Jim Gentes (started Giro), Gary Klein, Keith Bontrager and Mike Senyard (started Specialized) all lived and rode bikes together there. I remember someone telling me that Phil Wood was a brilliant mathematician and computer programmer who would invent something or start a company just for fun in his spare time, then quickly lose interest and turn his attention to something else. But who knows—it's just ancient bike gossip  Perhaps someone from the Santa Clara Valley has some more details.


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## Chompers

Sixty Fiver said:


> I would never argue that Phil Wood's products aren't first rate but only have an issue with the cost since we already know that there are comparable, if not identical, products that cost much less.


Made in the USA Baby! 

If your a fan of Phil Wood, then your also a fan of Thompson posts and stems. I know people that are not and say Thompson is over built and over priced, but they are not putting a value on reliability. 

On the other hand I wouldn't choose anything from Philwood or Thompson to build up a really nice light weight bike. Just know that those parts primary design is not reliabilty, but rather to be as light as possible and still operate for a season or so. Think of it this way, would you buy a used ExtraLight stem not knowing it's history? I wouldn't, but I'd buy a Thomson.


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## jmoryl

Chompers said:


> Made in the USA Baby!
> 
> If your a fan of Phil Wood, then your also a fan of Thompson posts and stems. I know people that are not and say Thompson is over built and over priced, but they are not putting a value on reliability.
> 
> On the other hand I wouldn't choose anything from Philwood or Thompson to build up a really nice light weight bike. Just know that those parts primary design is not reliabilty, but rather to be as light as possible and still operate for a season or so. Think of it this way, would you buy a used ExtraLight stem not knowing it's history? I wouldn't, but I'd buy a Thomson.


As far as US made hubs go I'd probably go with White Industries over Phil Woods or Chris King, and not just because I use Campy. 

If you need a seatpost or stem that is lighter than a Thompson you are just being silly.


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## DrSpoke

Cory said:


> I have a little bottle I threw into an order to get to the "free shipping" point, and I've used it in things like the pedals on my beater, when they needed a little lube but I didn't want to tear them down and rebuild. If you put it in one end and prop them up vertically, it will ooze down to the other end overnight and you're good for another few months. I dunno how it works in things like wheel bearings--seems a little thin, but I imagine it clings enough to coat the balls (FWIW, I use StaLube Marine Grease, made for boat trailers, for just about everything. It's about five bucks for a lifetime supply).
> When I saw the Phil's, though, it looked hauntingly familiar, and finally I recognized it: It looks and feels like STP, which we used to put in old cars in the vain hope that it would stop them from burning oil. I don't even know if it's still made, but if that's it, Phil's making a bundle on the repackaging.
> Bike lubrication isn't really much of a trick, by the way. The stresses are a fraction of those in cars and other applications, and almost anything will work.


That's how I "restored" some old Schwinn pedals. They were the old Atom design in Alloy and steel and I really didn't want to try to polish the corrosion off. They had end caps for the axle which looked sort of pressed on and looked removable but I didn't want to destroy them trying to get them off. So I soaked the whole pedal in Evapo-Rust for a couple of days and they came out looking new. And then stood them on end and dripped in some Phil. So they work great for the intended use. This method works especiall well for some of the pedals with rubber where the end caps are not removable. Or at least not worth messing with.


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## Kerry Irons

DrSpoke said:


> That's how I "restored" some old Schwinn pedals. They were the old Atom design in Alloy and steel and I really didn't want to try to polish the corrosion off. They had end caps for the axle which looked sort of pressed on and looked removable but I didn't want to destroy them trying to get them off. So I soaked the whole pedal in Evapo-Rust for a couple of days and they came out looking new. And then stood them on end and dripped in some Phil. So they work great for the intended use. This method works especiall well for some of the pedals with rubber where the end caps are not removable. Or at least not worth messing with.


Thanks for reviving this 6+ year old thread. I'm sure everyone was on pins an needles waiting for the update.


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## DrSpoke

Kerry Irons said:


> Thanks for reviving this 6+ year old thread. I'm sure everyone was on pins an needles waiting for the update.


Well, it seems it got your attention - at least enough to compell you to reply. You can go back to sleep now


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## ziscwg

DrSpoke said:


> That's how I "restored" some old Schwinn pedals. They were the old Atom design in Alloy and steel and I really didn't want to try to polish the corrosion off. They had end caps for the axle which looked sort of pressed on and looked removable but I didn't want to destroy them trying to get them off. So I soaked the whole pedal in Evapo-Rust for a couple of days and they came out looking new. And then stood them on end and dripped in some Phil. So they work great for the intended use. This method works especiall well for some of the pedals with rubber where the end caps are not removable. Or at least not worth messing with.





Kerry Irons said:


> Thanks for reviving this 6+ year old thread. I'm sure everyone was on pins an needles waiting for the update.





DrSpoke said:


> Well, it seems it got your attention - at least enough to compell you to reply. You can go back to sleep now



You know, I think the bottle I have of this oil I bought in 2007................:eek6:

It works great.


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## cmdrpiffle

ziscwg said:


> You know, I think the bottle I have of this oil I bought in 2007................:eek6:
> 
> It works great.


zombie thread! If the OP is still around, Phil Wood Tenacious Oil is all about 20mm vulcan cannons and banana oil. I've said too much already! :thumbsup:


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## ken2116

jmoryl said:


> So, just who is Phil Woods, anyway? Has anyone here met the guy?
> 
> He does make nice hubs, but major demerits for not making them in the Campy flavor.


It's Phil Wood (no 's', only one of him...) - here's a link to his obit. Phil Wood, bicycle legend, dies at 86

He was talented inventor and turned his hand to improving many things, bike hubs, pedals, crank axles, disc brakes, wheel chair hubs (immediately adopted by wheel chair athletes). Once when he was recovering from a serious illness he got ahold of the first HP programmable pocket calculator with a card reader (HP-65, or it might have been an HP-67) and entertained himself writing machining programs. It appeared there wasn't much he couldn't do, and he seemed very open and kind.

In the mid-late '70's I had occasion to visit him a few times at his Los Altos factory about hubs for a tandem and the disc brake he was developing and in the course of things he mentioned how he developed his grease. He said he needed a grease for his sealed bearing hubs that had better corrosion resistance that what he was using at the time and contacted a grease manufacturer (it might have been Mobil). When cars switched from DC generators with grease cups to alternators with cartridge bearings they soon had many returns with failed bearings and discovered that people were high pressure spraying (or steam cleaning) their engine bays, forcing water past the seals where it corroded the bearings. Adding a rust preventative chemical fixed the problem and, upon learning this, Phil figured if a little rust preventative was good for alternators, adding a bit more might be good for his bearings, so he had a batch made up and Phil Wood Grease was born. It wasn't simply a repackaged product, but a modified one.

I don't know what's in his oil. It's certainly tacky and has worked fine for me on chains. I also have good success with chain saw oil. I'm guessing it might be regular mineral oil with rust preventative and a thickener, perhaps a sulferized ester like what Mopar used to sell as an oil additive (maybe that was in STP at the time), but those are shots in the dark.


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## cxwrench

ken2116 said:


> It's Phil Wood (no 's', only one of him...) - here's a link to his obit. Phil Wood, bicycle legend, dies at 86
> 
> He was talented inventor and turned his hand to improving many things, bike hubs, pedals, crank axles, disc brakes, wheel chair hubs (immediately adopted by wheel chair athletes). Once when he was recovering from a serious illness he got ahold of the first HP programmable pocket calculator with a card reader (HP-65, or it might have been an HP-67) and entertained himself writing machining programs. It appeared there wasn't much he couldn't do, and he seemed very open and kind.
> 
> In the mid-late '70's I had occasion to visit him a few times at his Los Altos factory about hubs for a tandem and the disc brake he was developing and in the course of things he mentioned how he developed his grease. He said he needed a grease for his sealed bearing hubs that had better corrosion resistance that what he was using at the time and contacted a grease manufacturer (it might have been Mobil). When cars switched from DC generators with grease cups to alternators with cartridge bearings they soon had many returns with failed bearings and discovered that people were high pressure spraying (or steam cleaning) their engine bays, forcing water past the seals where it corroded the bearings. Adding a rust preventative chemical fixed the problem and, upon learning this, Phil figured if a little rust preventative was good for alternators, adding a bit more might be good for his bearings, so he had a batch made up and Phil Wood Grease was born. It wasn't simply a repackaged product, but a modified one.
> 
> I don't know what's in his oil. It's certainly tacky and has worked fine for me on chains. I also have good success with chain saw oil. I'm guessing it might be regular mineral oil with rust preventative and a thickener, perhaps a sulferized ester like what Mopar used to sell as an oil additive (maybe that was in STP at the time), but those are shots in the dark.


That's great. The post you're replying to was made in 2007, I'm sure that guy (who hasn't posted since last year) will come back and be thrilled to see this hugely important information. I know I was.


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## ken2116

cxwrench said:


> That's great. The post you're replying to was made in 2007, I'm sure that guy (who hasn't posted since last year) will come back and be thrilled to see this hugely important information. I know I was.


Wow, that was an old post.


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## shrubs

Yup. I thought I had some new miracle lube-Gibbs Lubricant. Later found out it was 90% mineral oil.


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## Lombard

ken2116 said:


> Wow, that was an old post.


Yup. And the obit was from 2010.

The shop I used to frequent swore by Phil Wood stuff. I once bought a tub of Phil Wood hand cleaner and I didn't think a whole lot of it compare to other hand cleaners. But people treat this stuff like it has unicorn horn extract in it, LOL!

BTW, welcome to RBR!


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## MDM

Lombard said:


> Yup. And the obit was from 2010.
> 
> The shop I used to frequent swore by Phil Wood stuff. I once bought a tub of Phil Wood hand cleaner and I didn't think a whole lot of it compare to other hand cleaners. But people treat this stuff like it has unicorn horn extract in it, LOL!
> 
> BTW, welcome to RBR!


Now it's that NFS BS lube and grease. History repeats.


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## Lombard

MDM said:


> Now it's that NFS *BS lube* and grease. History repeats.


BS lube? Ewwwwww, I sure wouldn't want to touch or smell that!


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## old_fuji

I still have the first tube of Phil Wood that I purchased right around 2009 or so. I've used it to fully restore (that is, repack all bearings and grease all threads for optimum torque) my namesake old Fuji bike, as well as a Corsaro roadbike, a Nishiki mountain bike, as well as maintain both MTB's and roadbikes that my wife and I currently ride. It's served me well in a few tight pinches in automotive applications, and honestly, I wasn't very impressed with how it worked in a skateboard setting.

Point is, a little dab'll do ya, and the tube will last a very long time.


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## PBL450

Pitbull needs to make a lube. We need one that is the best. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cxwrench

PBL450 said:


> Pitbull needs to make a lube. We need one that is the best.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The best. The fastest. The one that lets you out sprint the rest. The one that Roger would use.


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## PBL450

cxwrench said:


> The best. The fastest. The one that lets you out sprint the rest. The one that Roger would use.


Damn right, THAT is what I’m talking about! So fast your Pedals can feel it. The lube climbs for you! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Lombard

PBL450 said:


> Damn right, THAT is what I’m talking about! So fast your Pedals can feel it. The lube climbs for you!


A lube that makes you automatically win without ever getting on the bike!


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## MDM

cxwrench said:


> The best. The fastest. The one that lets you out sprint the rest. The one that Roger would use.











NixFrixShun Race Grease


NixFrixShun Ultimate Bicycle Chainlube




nixfrixshun.com


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