# Trebon Crash Video



## cat6worldchamp (Dec 16, 2005)

Here is a quick shot of video that I captured from Ryan's accident...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=32q1oJtNDrQ


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## kajukembo (Jan 20, 2003)

wow. those two guys in Trebon's lane are so far off course.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

I hope the guy that ran into Trebon doesn't get a lot of crap, because the blame lies squarely with incompetent course designers and builders.


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## jt2gt (Aug 25, 2004)

Man...you captured it alright. That was rough to watch. Can't believe that guy lost it so bad that he was going over the bars on that section. Looks like he panicked a bit...than again guess I would too with big treefarm coming at me.

JT


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

Wow!!


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

jt2gt said:


> Can't believe that guy lost it so bad that he was going over the bars on that section.


I'm sure that each of us can think of stupid-ass crap we've done while pushing hard and on difficult course conditions. Look at how muddy and slippery that surface is.

"Yeah, a thin strip of plastic tape, that oughta do the trick . . . ."


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## dead flag blues (Aug 26, 2004)

That's tough to watch. I agree, the course designer should have put a decent snow fence or something in there to protect everyone.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

The guy that went way far right, witnessed the accident, then pulled the tape over his head to get back on the course, needs a good cockpunch.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

pretender said:


> The guy that went way far right, witnessed the accident, then pulled the tape over his head to get back on the course, needs a good cockpunch.


why? do you stop in races when someone else crashes directly in front of a crowd of spectators?

the only argument that makes sense is "everyone crossing the tape needs a cockpunch," which i kind of agree with, but the guy who had to go further into the oncoming lane to avoid the crash is no worse than anyone else.

in unrelated news, if you were so inclined, you could read the number of the rider that hit him and find a name matching that number on the results with a DNF.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

colinr said:


> why? do you stop in races when someone else crashes directly in front of a crowd of spectators?


If I were not in podium contention and saw a crash that dramatic about two feet in front of my face, I would not so casually ride past and yank yet more course tape to get back on the course.

Yup, cockpunching. I stand by it.


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

There were racers blowing though the tape on evey corner during every race, that's just how hard it was to control your bike in those conditions. As for stopping when witnessing a crash like that??? Maybe if it was a mtb race out in the middle of nowhere but not in a cross race with hundreds of people right there. I guess I'm just selfish.

At least the guy who crossed over actually lifted the tape up when he got back on course. I had a guy in my race overshoot a corner, ride along the outside of the tape then blast right through it to get back on course. That was a dumb a** move if you ask me. The tape blew back at me but I was able to pedal though it slowly without it getting caught in my drivetrain.


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## myette10 (Jul 20, 2003)

*wow*

Horrible course design. check out the ruts that go right under the tape in that spot, that clearly didn't happen just once. As someone said, looks narrow too. KLM needs to tighten that sh!t up.


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## Doctor Who (Feb 22, 2005)

DPCX said:


> There were racers blowing though the tape on evey corner during every race, that's just how hard it was to control your bike in those conditions. As for stopping when witnessing a crash like that??? Maybe if it was a mtb race out in the middle of nowhere but not in a cross race with hundreds of people right there. I guess I'm just selfish.


I agree with this. What the hell's another racer going to do to help, that the huge crowd couldn't? All he'd be doing is standing/getting in the way when paramedics/spectating doctors would be trying to get close, as it only takes seconds for emergency services to get to a downed rider in a CX race.

If something like that happened in front of me, I'd cringe, pucker-up a little, and ride around. 

Now, in road races, I've definitely stopped to help out downed riders. That sag wagon only comes around occasionally, and I'd rather do all that I could to help in a situation that REQUIRED my help than keep on riding.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

OK I'm amending my cockpunch decree. He just seemed so blase about it, though, and he easily could have been the guy crashing into Trebon.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

*In any case*

That was a stoopid-azz course design. They were asking for trouble there, esp w/ the conditions.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

pretender said:


> OK I'm amending my cockpunch decree. He just seemed so blase about it, though, and he easily could have been the guy crashing into Trebon.


Why? Watch his shadow before he appears. He is _way_ off his side of the course, even before the crash. It is hard to see where Trebon's eyes are, but I would not be suprised if that guy contributed significantly to the crash by cutting clear acros the course right as the other rider panicked and endo'd into Trebon. Trebon didn't have much room to steer around oncoming clown #1 without steering into oncoming clown#2. Who let this traveling circus onto the course during the elite race anyway?

Obviously, this wouldn't have happened if the course had been different, but courses are run like this all the time IME. No excuses there. And don't I really don't get the whole "the other side of the course was hard to ride" nonesense.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well clearly the guy who didn't hit tree farm*

was even further off the course. so it wasn't just a single rider going off course
2 guys at one instance had blown into another lane, one to the complete other side . he may have been forced ovr by rider #1, we'll never know.

anyway that is bad. real bad. we've all raced on courses where they double back like that. it's just under those extreme conditions that it becomes so nasty.


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## bwcross (Sep 30, 2006)

bwcross said:


> Another thread hijack question - would disc brakes have prevented this accident?


After watching the vid, I'm going to go out on a limb and estimate that if one or both of those guys had disc brakes, accident would have been prevented or not been nearly as bad.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

bwcross said:


> After watching the vid, I'm going to go out on a limb and estimate that if one or both of those guys had disc brakes, accident would have been prevented or not been nearly as bad.


Just hope that the limb isn't severed by an errant hot spinning disc!

Seriously, have you ever raced CX with discs? One fall on the non-driveside can contaminate your caliper with mud or sand and leave you with no brakes at all. This happened to a friend of mine at Sea Otter. Also, the only rider in my class who had serious braking problems this season a) had disc brakes and b) lost all braking power on the rainiest, muddiest day of the season.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

bwcross said:


> After watching the vid, I'm going to go out on a limb and estimate that if one or both of those guys had disc brakes, accident would have been prevented or not been nearly as bad.


I doubt it.

The guy who hit Trebon had slowed his bike, Trebon did not even touch his breaks it looks like, so any breaking system would have been moot there. My guess if Trebon was trying to steer around the clown in his path but since you can see the guy put his foot down (cause he's breaking/slowing) he make a bigger target which could not be avoided in this case. It prolly all happened too fast for anyone to do anything about really you just don't expect to see riders coming at you the wrong way esp when you driving it on a fast section.


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## dyg2001 (Sep 23, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Who let this traveling circus onto the course during the elite race anyway?
> 
> Obviously, this wouldn't have happened if the course had been different, but courses are run like this all the time IME. No excuses there. And don't I really don't get the whole "the other side of the course was hard to ride" nonesense.


You really had to be there to appreciate how treacherous this course was. Deep frozen ruts and ice with slippery mud on top. You will never see this surface at a local race, because it takes hundreds of racers over the course of 4 days of racing and multiple freeze-thaw cycles to create it. I raced twice and went off course a bunch of times, broke a couple plastic poles, crashed really hard once (on a benign looking straight section), and had to unclip and put a foot down many times. And the elite men were going twice as fast as me. Clearly the 2 guys who veered into Trebon's lane were out of control, but I'm not going to call them incompetent, reckless, or unskilled. I witnessed many national champions and other great riders crashing and ripping through the course tape throughout the weekend. Even Page bounced into the tape. The way to prevent a head-on collision like Trebon's is to either have really sturdy fencing (which would have caused many other crashes and mechanicals like destroyed brake levers), or a buffer zone between lanes.


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

The whole thing is ridiculous.. both the guys who went off course have a major lack of technical skills that should have kept them out of the Elite race at a National championships.

They had enough traction to not go off course. If they had no traction they would have spun the tire and stopped and/or they would have just washed out the front tire and fell immediately. The guy who hit Trebon was not going over the bars. He was bailing off the bike cause of his own choice.. notice he goes off the side of the bike, not OTB, he was trying to unclip while on the brakes.

They went off course cause their balance was off and they target fixated and/or didn't think to get their balance straight.

There's just no excuse... even with the bad course design. It's freakin flat ground. And there is no way I believe that is sheer ice.. if it was they would have fallen like dominoes on their side of the tape, not rode into the oncoming traffic.

If this was a freakin beginner MTB race no one would be blaming the course designers.. they'd be blaming the riders who went so far off course.

But that's just me.. I have a hard time "getting" these cross races in ice/snow/mud.. if the conditions are going to be that bad they might as well be on MTBs with snow tires.

As for Disc brakes.. at least with discs they would be able to stop fine & control their brakes *before* the first crash. With cantis in those conditions the brakes are worthless even without crashing.

edit: Are studded tires allowed in CX?


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## bwcross (Sep 30, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Just hope that the limb isn't severed by an errant hot spinning disc!
> 
> Seriously, have you ever raced CX with discs? One fall on the non-driveside can contaminate your caliper with mud or sand and leave you with no brakes at all. This happened to a friend of mine at Sea Otter. Also, the only rider in my class who had serious braking problems this season a) had disc brakes and b) lost all braking power on the rainiest, muddiest day of the season.


I held off on building up my mountain bike race bike with discs for a couple years (thought they were too heavy and I didn't need them) and found out afterwards that I was stupid to wait that long. That was six years ago. I've never had anything happen like the above incident, or heard of it for that matter.

On the cross end of things, I wish I could race disc but I can't because of the UCI rule. Agreed they're not needed on a good dry day. But on a wet day...I'd love some little 140's, light hubs, and carbon rims. Wouldn't add that much weight.

I agree in retrospect that fencing was needed in that section - what chaos! I'm sure it will be the case next year, and that all big race promoters will learn from this incident.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

bwcross said:


> I held off on building up my mountain bike race bike with discs for a couple years (thought they were too heavy and I didn't need them) and found out afterwards that I was stupid to wait that long. That was six years ago. I've never had anything happen like the above incident, or heard of it for that matter.


MTB is not CX! Disc brakes are no more of an advantage than 2.3" tires or suspension forks. When do you ever ride your MTB in the kind of mud and sand that you see on a CX course (hopefully never because that is how trails get ruined and closed :nono.

The above incident had nothing to do with inadequate braking power. It was on a flat section where people were trying to ride as fast as possible, not brake as quickly as possible. Some were just riding too fast. Brakes only work if you use them.


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

No offense but if you think mud like that never exists at MTB races I want some of what you're smoking.

Conditions that extreme happen all the time. XC races on a rainy day will produce conditions like that very very quickly.

Ice happens too. The difference is MTBers are way more likely to have practiced in those conditions (especially at an elite level) and have chosen their equipment appropriately. MTB racers practice all year.. lots of cross guys are roadies who never venture into the dirt all summer. Why else would MTB racers do so well in CX when the conditions get bad?

Wider MTB tires with an even lower pressure then CX tires possibly with studs will handle that course like it's a joke and have no trouble making all the corners fine.

CX just has an artifical equipment limitations to make the course seem harder then it is.. they are not hard courses in absolute terms.

I didn't go this year but I went in 05 and 06. In these snow/ice/mud conditions throw someone like Craig, etc.. on XC MTBs, let them pick the appropriate tire.. and they'd run away from everyone else even more then they do now. In those conditions it's totally obvious the cross bike is making the course hard.. not the course.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Sorry, I'm not impressed. I commute over worse conditions. They lost control because they were riding beyond their ability which is the number one :nono: in any risky sport.

Page ran into the tape. Is that the same as blowing through it into oncoming traffic and taking someone out? I don't think so. Note that they did not suffer a crash that sent them across the line. They just got busted hunting for easier lines outside the course. That should be a DQ under any circumstances and a harsher sanction for anyone who actually causes someone on another part of the course to wreck.


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## bwcross (Sep 30, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> MTB is not CX! Disc brakes are no more of an advantage than 2.3" tires or suspension forks. When do you ever ride your MTB in the kind of mud and sand that you see on a CX course (hopefully never because that is how trails get ruined and closed :nono.
> 
> The above incident had nothing to do with inadequate braking power. It was on a flat section where people were trying to ride as fast as possible, not brake as quickly as possible. Some were just riding too fast. Brakes only work if you use them.


Check out the guy that completely crosses the oncoming traffic - that has nothing to do with inadequate braking power? You're kidding me. Looks like he didn't even bother touching his brakes. Maybe because they weren't working?

I've competed in over 100 CX races and at least that number of MTB races so I think I have a decent handle on the differences. This is just my opinion anyways. You're entitled to yours. I don't believe disc brakes pose any additional measureable risk to rider safety in a crash than does anything else sticking out from your cross bike. More importantly, I believe that riders race with less control in muddy, wet and freezing cross races with canti brakes (particularly with carbon rims) than they would with disc brakes, causing more crashes.

Let riders make their own decisions on equipment if it doesn't pose a safety risk to other riders. I choose to ride steel, even though it's heavier, because I feel more in control therefore feel faster. I'll take the weight of disc brakes too.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

None taken. Mud does not regularly feature in XC events out west. The one exception I know of is Sea Otter.

I think it is a contradiciton to argue that MTBers can handle racing in mud with cantis because they have discs on their MTBs, but whatever. Perhaps there is just a higher proportion of freaked out roadies racing CX in your neck of the woods.

Eurpoeans and PNW racers seem to have the whole mud thing figured out.

There are few good technological solutions to behavioral problems.


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## jerry_in_VT (Oct 13, 2006)

benInMA said:


> I didn't go this year but I went in 05 and 06. In these snow/ice/mud conditions throw someone like Craig, etc.. on XC MTBs, let them pick the appropriate tire.. and they'd run away from everyone else even more then they do now. In those conditions it's totally obvious the cross bike is making the course hard.. not the course.


I have to disagree with you on the mud over ice in MTB (very rare, trails are closed that time of year, racing is over, 99% of the time).

Also on MTB being faster _at that level_, I disagree. Maybe in beginners, not in elites. No way. Also, a pretty even mix of MTB and roadies in the top 10 every year. Not looking to argue the point, just saying.

My 2 cents.

J


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

bwcross said:


> Check out the guy that completely crosses the oncoming traffic - that has nothing to do with inadequate braking power? You're kidding me. Looks like he didn't even bother touching his brakes. Maybe because they weren't working?


Was he coming out of a fast left sweeper? That is the only reason I could see him taking a line that wide due to inadequate braking. There seemed to be plenty of other people who were able to avoid his folly, and they don't have discs either. :idea:

Stonger brakes would only move the problem from the pad's contact patch to the tire's contact patch.


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## dc.cyclocross (Oct 5, 2007)

benInMA said:


> No offense but if you think mud like that never exists at MTB races I want some of what you're smoking.
> 
> Conditions that extreme happen all the time. XC races on a rainy day will produce conditions like that very very quickly.
> 
> ...


as an aside: for me, course conditions in KC '07 were much worse than RI '05 (although the weather was worse in RI)- both times I raced on the snowier, colder day. 05 was deep snow in my race, but the ground was intact. KCCX was a mass of frozen ruts and the course was very narrow.


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## dyg2001 (Sep 23, 2004)

benInMA said:


> The whole thing is ridiculous.. both the guys who went off course have a major lack of technical skills that should have kept them out of the Elite race at a National championships.


Dude, sorry but you don't know what you are talking about, since you were not there. Of all the dozens crashes and other mishaps I witnessed, braking performance was hardly ever an issue. Disc brakes would not have made any difference. I have carbon fiber rims and Paul cantis and my braking was fine all weekend. This was the problem: you could be motoring along at 20 MPH in a straight line, and then all of a sudden your front wheel would fall into a 5 inch deep diagonal frozen rut hidden under slick mud, and your bike would shoot sideways through the tape. Yes, there would have been fewer crashes if everybody had been going 4 MPH. But it was a cyclocross race, and I'd argue that if you are 100% in control 100% of the time you aren't going fast enough or taking enough risks. 

Peanutbutterbreath, you say you commute over worse conditions. That may be true, but I doubt you regularly do it at the speed of an elite cross race without crashing. If you can, than you really should have come to KC, because you would have loved it. 

benInMA, you say that conditions like this happen in XC all the time. No they don't. The hard part about the course was not mud, snow, ice, or ruts. It was the combination (plus course features like off-camber sections, etc.). Like I said before, the only time you will encounter a treacherous surface like this is if you have 2000 cross racers riding around a muddy course over 4 days that freezes every night. As far as I know that rarely happens in XC MTB racing or cross racing at the local level. 

My point is that we should not assume those 2 guys that crossed over into Trebon's lane were irresponsibly trying to cut the course to save time or find an easier line, or were lousy riders who had no technical skills. The course was DAMN HARD to ride even at a moderate pace, much less at the speed of the elite men.


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

There is a big big difference between falling because conditions were bad and riding into oncoming traffic without crashing and taking out the defending national champion.

You get in a rut you bunny hop out of it or crash. It's the freakin national championships... No excuse.

All my rides for the next 3 months are likely to be in mud/snow/ice combinations. Don't try to convince me it's impossible to ride through those conditions.

The key thing here is neither of those 2 guys crashed. They rode where they weren't supposed to for whatever reason.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

dyg2001 said:


> Dude, sorry but you don't know what you are talking about, since you were not there. Of all the dozens crashes and other mishaps I witnessed, braking performance was hardly ever an issue. Disc brakes would not have made any difference. I have carbon fiber rims and Paul cantis and my braking was fine all weekend. This was the problem: you could be motoring along at 20 MPH in a straight line, and then all of a sudden your front wheel would fall into a 5 inch deep diagonal frozen rut hidden under slick mud, and your bike would shoot sideways through the tape. Yes, there would have been fewer crashes if everybody had been going 4 MPH. But it was a cyclocross race, and I'd argue that if you are 100% in control 100% of the time you aren't going fast enough or taking enough risks.
> 
> Peanutbutterbreath, you say you commute over worse conditions. That may be true, but I doubt you regularly do it at the speed of an elite cross race without crashing. If you can, than you really should have come to KC, because you would have loved it.
> 
> ...


dave _gets it_ atmo.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

I agree. I have ridden into my share of frozen ruts in the last month. If your bike suddenly changes direction at 20 MPH, what happens is that you hit the deck. Unless the laws of inertia change somewhere between the 17 MPH I ride to work and 20 MPH hypothesized in this situation (generous), I don't see how these riders could have suddenly changed directions. The fact that they were still riding their bikes says to me that their were still in the drivers seat, trying to find good lines and getting it horribly wrong.

Clearly, a lot of riders were in over their heads in KC. I'm not saying that it is easy to ride over frozen mud and ice -- I suck at racing in those conditions.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Clearly, a lot of riders were in over their heads in KC.


that may have been the case, but didn't that crash happen
before riders were lapped? iow, the riders that collided were
really not that separated from each other at that point atmo?


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

OK to be fair since it is national championships I guess the course organizers do need to take it into account and to take the blame.

Cause it's unreasonable for them to expect someone from TX, FL, So Cal, etc.. to have any clue how to ride in snow & ice.

But in general to say it's hard to ride at speed X in a given conditions.. no it's not. If you can't ride at speed X without crashing you need to slow down as going slower and not crashing is faster then going faster & crashing.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

benInMA said:


> Cause it's unreasonable for them to expect someone from TX, FL, So Cal, etc.. to have any clue how to ride in snow & ice.


data point atmo -
they weren't riding in snow & ice; they were *racing* in it.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

e-RICHIE said:


> that may have been the case, but didn't that crash happen
> before riders were lapped? iow, the riders that collided were
> really not that separated from each other at that point atmo?


I'm not sure I follow. My comment was directed to people who caused crash and those that swear based on being there that the conditions were too harsh to ride safely.

I'm sure it was extremely difficult and I am sure I would have had it handed to me if I was there. But because I was riding within my limits given the conditions. I assume everyone there pre-rode the course and was aware of the hazards, and was therefore in the position to make smarter choices about how fast to ride.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Maybe if you've _never_ fallen in a cyclocross race you have the right to get all high and mighty about the guys veering off-course.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I'm not sure I follow. My comment was directed to people who caused crash and those that swear based on being there that the conditions were too harsh to ride safely.
> 
> I'm sure it was extremely difficult and I am sure I would have had it handed to me if I was there. But because I was riding within my limits given the conditions. I assume everyone there pre-rode the course and was aware of the hazards, and was therefore in the position to make smarter choices about how fast to ride.


my point was that folks (mebbe not you) are dissing the fact
that a lapped rider - or an inexperienced rider - caused all this.
i was asking if it's true that since the crash happened so early,
the riders were all in the same moment and only separated by
one turn, rather than a lap. iow, the guy who fell couldn't have
been that new if he was a turn back. so - was this the case, or
was there lapped riders so early atmo?


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

I see what you are saying.

It seems inevitable that beyond the top 20 or so, ability levels and expeience with large fields may vary greatly given the geography of this country.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I see what you are saying.
> 
> It seems inevitable that beyond the top 20 or so, ability levels and expeience with large fields may vary greatly given the geography of this country.


even though i was there i am not sure what happened...
VN says the crash occured with 5 1/2 laps to go. does
anyone know if there were lapped riders _that_ early in
the race atmo?


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## jerry_in_VT (Oct 13, 2006)

e-RICHIE said:


> even though i was there i am not sure what happened...
> VN says the crash occured with 5 1/2 laps to go. does
> anyone know if there were lapped riders _that_ early in
> the race atmo?



I saw it, it was very early on. Wells chasing JP. Going to say 2nd or 3rd lap, max. The riders who blew thru the tape were way back already, it was right at the course crossing to the beer tent. They were on the road side, Trefarm on the beer tent side. I think that is a good chunk of course between the two, as one heads out to the back side hill, the other is coming up from the back side hill section.

That section was slightly down hill towards beer tent (ie off camber). It was not "rutted" really, it was more like post holed, like a horse pasture, with a lube layer on top. You had to go really fast and you bounced from crest to crest, you didnt like ride a rut or something. I bet the two of them bumped or something, and once you start going, you cant stop it. You cant steer, you are just pinning it and pointing into the section and coming out the other side. At least I was. And I was going at least 2 minutes a lap slower then these guys, probably.

To imply it was a rut you could bunny hop out of, as was mentioned above, umm, no. You really had to be there, racing it.

J


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

It happened on Trebon's 2nd or 3rd lap, so pretty early on and there were no lapped riders at that point. The rider who crossed the tape and took out Ryan was pretty far back but not close to being lapped at that point.


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Sorry, I'm not impressed. I commute over worse conditions. They lost control because they were riding beyond their ability which is the number one :nono: in any risky sport.
> 
> Page ran into the tape. Is that the same as blowing through it into oncoming traffic and taking someone out? I don't think so. Note that they did not suffer a crash that sent them across the line. They just got busted hunting for easier lines outside the course. That should be a DQ under any circumstances and a harsher sanction for anyone who actually causes someone on another part of the course to wreck.


dyg2001 said it best, if you werent there you have no idea of the conditions, *period*. If you commute in conditions worse then these then more power to you but honestly it was hard enough just walking in these conditions (with slippery boots on). For those that keep commenting on the riders abilities, again, if you werent there then you haven't a clue. 

Lets not have any more comments on the riders or the course conditions unless you were there & RACED (or at least rode) on the course.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

benInMA said:


> There is a big big difference between falling because conditions were bad and riding into oncoming traffic without crashing and *taking out the defending national champion.*


What? you lost me on that one! I give no sympathy for who any individual athlete is in a race. From your statement, are we to assume that everyone should go a little slower when going by the "good racers". IMO, hell no. They face the same risk as everyone else, that is why getting to the podium is so tough!!

I can see it now at the '08 TdF: Rider X is 90 minutes down after yesterday's stage, so he should not be allowed to affect the race negatively for Contador...


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

Here's an idea of what the iced mud ruts looked like on Thursday. They only got worse by Sunday.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Cyclo-phile said:


>


You need to freeze all that to firm up the ruts. Then melt it so that there is standing water, then freeze it again so that you have a few glass-smooth frozen puddles in the mix. Extra points if there is still 4 inches of liquid water under the ice. Then get some snow on there and some pedestrian and snowmobile traffic to make everything all lumpy. Then freeze it again and finally throw a couple inches of fresh powder on top. Then yell "Go!"


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> You need to freeze all that to firm up the ruts. Then melt it so that there is standing water, then freeze it again so that you have a few glass-smooth frozen puddles in the mix. Extra points if there is still 4 inches of liquid water under the ice. Then get some snow on there and some pedestrian and snowmobile traffic to make everything all lumpy. Then freeze it again and finally throw a couple inches of fresh powder on top. Then yell "Go!"


Whatever, I ride to work UP a FROZEN WATERFALL. Some days it's NOT EVEN FROZEN. 

So yeah anyone who crashes in the elite race at nats is a no-talent *****.... I mean no one ever crashes race cars just because they are pushing the limits. So there's no excuse to crash a bike.

To reiterate, I ride WATERFALLS, elite racers TOTALLY SUCK.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

colinr said:


> Whatever, I ride to work UP a FROZEN WATERFALL. Some days it's NOT EVEN FROZEN.
> 
> So yeah anyone who crashes in the elite race at nats is a no-talent *****.... I mean no one ever crashes race cars just because they are pushing the limits. So there's no excuse to crash a bike.
> 
> To reiterate, I ride WATERFALLS, elite racers TOTALLY SUCK.


I didn't think waterfalls warranted a mention -- not even the ones that I have to climb going both ways.

This was no ordinary crash.

BTW: riding up waterfalls when they are _frozen_ is the easiest time to ride them.


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

Here is a pic from after my daughters race Friday morning. It only got worse by Sunday, a little less frozen but you can see what I mean.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

DPCX said:


> Here is a pic from after my daughters race Friday morning. It only got worse by Sunday, a little less frozen but you can see what I mean.


That's a good shot that *may* help some of the talkers on here who did not attend form an idea about how ridiculously difficult the conditions got on sat. and sun.

There's really no way that you can say a thing about any of this unless you were there. The conditions were unique. If you weren't there and you didn't get to do a lap on the course on one of these days you won't be able to accurately speculate on how avoidable or un-avoidable a trip through the tape might have been. 

Many, if not most, top riders crashed many times. Luck was a big part of your success in staying upright. There were many places with no ridable line that riders just had to let the bike wander through at speed and hope for the best. Sometimes you rolled through, sometimes you got thrown to the ground. Crashing was more or less unavoidable and not crashing depended on luck more than skill in many sections of the course.


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## pdxccx (Sep 24, 2005)

ATMO there are two responsible parties:
The promoters: the course shouldn't have been designed and taped like that. 

THe racers: If the course conditions, or your mishandling of the bike veers you off course, you should *immediately* get back on course, not continue on your new found path until it is convenient for you to regain the course. Some call this cutting the course, and should be grounds for DQ, crash or no. 

The rider's simple mistake in the heat of a race was made ruinous for Trebon due to poor course design. But that's racin'. Riders get crashed out by other's mistakes all the time. Hopefully Trebon will be back and able to show his potential in Europe.


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## myette10 (Jul 20, 2003)

wunlap togo said:


> If you weren't there and you didn't get to do a lap on the course on one of these days you won't be able to accurately speculate on how avoidable or un-avoidable a trip through the tape might have been.


From the comfort of my home at this laptop and hitting the refresh button on CN it was clear to me that the blame for Trebon's crash lay solely at the feet of the Snow Miser. 










I like your style wunlap


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

myette10 said:


> From the comfort of my home at this laptop and hitting the refresh button on CN it was clear to me that the blame for Trebon's crash lay solely at the feet of the Snow Miser.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL is not a IM-speak term that I use lightly, but in this case it is truly warrented.


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

You have no idea how often I thought about Snow Miser this weekend in KS. The picture of Travis Brown with his frozen mustache only reinforced it. Thanks for posting, this is the most "accurate" speculation yet!


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## heenan (Oct 22, 2004)

I don't know the rider personally, but I was sitting at the same table as him at the after party. He said he was riding in a group, got pinched into the inside, hit a rut and bounced out. He said it happened so fast he couldn't do a thing about it, the tape was already torn down He lives in Colorado and I am sure they get mud and ice there, right.

As everyone else has said the conditions were insane. You had very little choice as to your line much of the time. 

Georgia Gould - "There are like 18 lines but you have to hope you are in the right one!"

So only good bike handlers should be allowed to race, huh?

Jeremy Powers - "It was really disappointing," he managed to say between pained breaths. "I hit my chest on my frame really hard when I crashed on the back side – I hit it so hard it's hard to talk. I was in second place just behind Jonathan [Page] and he and I were bumping bars and I just hit the deck. Everyone had to deal with the cold, but hitting my chest... after that I wasn't able to take the corners as hard. I'm gonna have to get an x-ray."

Jonathan Page - Unfortunately I crashed and dropped my chain...

Tim Johnson - "You risked crashing in any one of the 30 corners all over the course!"

It sounds to me like everyone was battling the conditions!

It is always easy to place the blame and point fingers when you are not directly involved. Yes it is too bad that a couple of guys crashed and one of them happened to be the defending national champ, but would this thread be 3 pages long if it had been a couple of riders in a "B" race that ran into each other and hadn't been caught on video tape?

How about a 3 page thread thanking the mass of volunteers that made Nationals possible?


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## trumpetman (Dec 9, 2001)

*Bad Course*

I really feel bad for Trebon. I have Carolina roots, too and once lent him all my euro-cross DVD's that I hope inspired him a little to go be the best. I got to talk to him a little after Nats in Portland and am a big fan. But I also feel bad for the guy that hit him as well as the other that went off to the right and then ducked under the tape.

Face it - the tape was down and the conditions were poor. These guys ( that crossed into his path) were like disoriented motorists in a snow storm who wind up going down an exit ramp and were on the wrong side of the interstate. I bet the guy that hit Trebon was just following a rut and then...bam!... the lights went out. The guy that went right realized what was going on and dove across to get out of the way.

This is a really unfortunate accident. I won't criticize the promotor but everyone should take heed of this and think through the way that course design affects safety.

I have designed a couple of courses and promoted a race - big deal. But I did look at EVERY thing on the course from my perspecitve as a racer and SWEATED every possibility of someone getting hurt due to something I did not anticipate.

I basically had loop courses with no doubling back etc. Primitive junglecross. These tricky urban cross courses with folded turns need effective barriers and robust staking. I was taken out of the Washington State CX Champs several years ago when the snow fence fell into the course and snagged my fork. Ended my race and bent my down tube.

My only other suggestion would be to consider having Nationals in Hendersonville NC http://www.nccyclocross.com/ to avoid such f****d up conditions. But I suggested this a couple of years ago and got pretty much flamed so WTH.

John McBurney
Kingston PA


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## towerscum (Mar 3, 2006)

*Oh Puleeeez...*

We all boast about racing in "extreme" or "sick" conditions or how cross is so much harder than other types of racing. Why was this situation any different? It was a hard race. It got ugly. Tape fell down. I doubt it's the first time it's ever happened. It sounds like the racers are saying "thats racing".Get over it. If the racers can, why can't you:cryin: 


akdeluxe


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

towerscum said:


> It sounds like the racers are saying "thats racing".


Is that a direct quote from Trebon?

The reason to worry about this is: American cyclocross is just starting to gain some credibility. We have some good riders, good races, and last year, a really good result at Worlds. The Portland and New England series are on fire. But when something like this happens at our national championships, it frankly looks pretty rinky-dink. Also, it unnecessarily hurts one of our top riders right before he'd be heading across the pond to race with the big boys.

Simply putting up stakes and tape for a local series is fine. But we can reasonably expect more for the national championships. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh to the people who put a lot of time and effort into putting on the event.


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## towerscum (Mar 3, 2006)

pretender said:


> Is that a direct quote from Trebon?
> 
> The reason to worry about this is: American cyclocross is just starting to gain some credibility. We have some good riders, good races, and last year, a really good result at Worlds. The Portland and New England series are on fire. But when something like this happens at our national championships, it frankly looks pretty rinky-dink. Also, it unnecessarily hurts one of our top riders right before he'd be heading across the pond to race with the big boys.
> 
> Simply putting up stakes and tape for a local series is fine. But we can reasonably expect more for the national championships. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh to the people who put a lot of time and effort into putting on the event.



No,not a quote. I was refering to the comments from racers at a post race dinner table, I think it was, from a earlier post. It seems to me that it was racing. Riders pushing themselves.Regardless of the conditions,abilities or course setting methods,crashes happen. Fields will always have racers"not up to snuff" with the others. It just might be their big break. Besides,how fun would it be to watch if only seventeen guys were racing. This crash probably would have never happened if it was a clear sunny day. Can't redesign a venue just because weather changes.In that race,it appears nothing less than a brick wall would have kept racers from,please forgive me...crossing over:lol: 
I do understand your point. I'm just not sure crashes could have been prevented. I still find it silly people get bent out of shape over a unlucky crash that happened on a cold,wet,muddy and very difficult course. We'll just have to wait and see what comes of this.
I hope all involed are ok.

towerscum


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## thebadger (Jul 27, 2002)

*Lets criticize some more*

Those Portland USGP folks don't know how to set up a course either... tape and posts with the course doubling back on itself. How dare they do such a thing.


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## Greg Hejtmanek (Aug 17, 2007)

IMHO bottom line, ten more feet of seperation and a row of haybales and we aren't talking about this incident.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Sorry, I'm not impressed. I commute over worse conditions. They lost control because they were riding beyond their ability which is the number one :nono: in any risky sport.
> 
> Page ran into the tape. Is that the same as blowing through it into oncoming traffic and taking someone out? I don't think so. Note that they did not suffer a crash that sent them across the line. They just got busted hunting for easier lines outside the course. That should be a DQ under any circumstances and a harsher sanction for anyone who actually causes someone on another part of the course to wreck.


That comment makes me think of the Youtube video of a world cup race where there is a short/steep downhill w/ a snow fence barricade, followed by a tight 180 right corner. Almost everyone crashes coming down it, and some even ram the barrier w/ so much force (it holds solid) that they fly over it onto the other side into other racers way.

They must all be riding beyond their ability? Or is that a sign of poor course design.

I don't have the ability to find the video, but I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about and can post.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

You probably mean this one:






Note that some of the racers are fine and some likely wouldn't have crashed if not for others who did. As such, I am not sure what you might think this video proves about anything.


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## gewilli (Dec 18, 2006)

No one ever likes to compare US cross with Euro events but, just for a moment. How many of those National events use caution tape and stakes? 

The national champ race in the US is most # of UCI points ya can get around here w/o the WC coming stateside. Maybe the USAC should look into adding a 1000 meters of snow type fencing every year to that trailer to slowly replace the tape. Maybe. Or maybe not. 

Heck from that video it looked rather unsafe for course workers to get in an re-string the tape mid-race.

Sucks for Treefarm. But it is racing. Things happen. Maybe it'll light a big old fire under his ass for the rest of the season (assuming he's not facing a season ending injury).

Commuting and racing, yeah, those are comparable


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

thebadger said:


> Those Portland USGP folks don't know how to set up a course either... tape and posts with the course doubling back on itself. How dare they do such a thing.


Alpenrose had a sketchy high speed two-way component this past fall in the Cross Crusade. I saw a couple ribbon breaking crossovers and it was a little un-nerving to be racing so close (head-on) to the riders chasing behind. I actually had a very close call and got lucky. With icy ruts invisible to the naked eye and off camber, it seems like a more significant barrier is in order, or at least a no-man's land gap in between of 10'-20' or so.

The section shown in the pic of the PDX USGP race wasn't really an issue, since the riders on the left side had just been running through the slop after the double barriers, and the on-coming riders ahead on the right were gunning for their left inside line. The speeds were pretty low, the terrain was flat (albeit muddy), and not a huge risk for course crossing. Where that vulnerability was present, snow fencing was used.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> You probably mean this one:
> Note that some of the racers are fine and some likely wouldn't have crashed if not for others who did. As such, I am not sure what you might think this video proves about anything.


Yeah, that is EXACTLY the video I was referring to! Thanks.

My point mainly is that, even at the world cup level, you have racers pushing beyond their limits. You can't reach your potential w/o delicately balancing on that line between control and chaos. You also cannot control all the variables at all time, no matter your speed. Throw in some invisible and un-avoidable variables into the mix and accidents will happen. It's not necessarily that the riders lack ability. 

Even though the World Cup promotors may have created a hazardous situation for the racers w/ that corner immediately after the descent, it is up to the racers to determine how fast to take it. What the course designer DID do right is create a solid barrier at the bottom, so in the event that an accident did occur (like lack of braking or out of control racer), other "faster" racers ahead that had already gone around the corner don't get taken out by the "slower" racers well behind.

The issue is that at this years Nat's course, this particular location did not have adequate protection between the two directions of travel. Furthermore, due to design, this particular location had two distinctly different ability levels immediately adjacent to each other and that throws more risk at the fast guys like Trebon.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

gewilli said:


> Commuting and racing, yeah, those are comparable


It is when you are as chronically late as I am.

I am going to pull the "if you haven't ridden it, you don't know squat card", since that carries so much weight in this thread.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

We are talking about riders crossing the tape into oncoming traffic on a muddy but reasonably flat and straight section of the course. Moreover, there were literally thousands of instances where oncoming riders were passing each other without colliding. Hundreds of people of all skill levels were able to race that section without slamming into each other, and some had worse conditions to deal with. Accidents happen, but so do mistakes.

It sounds like a lot of self-styled "elite" racers were confounded by the cold weather and the mud. I submit that the entire US CX season be bumped back 2 months so we can have more racers prepared to deal with real weather and fewer people who think that thundering around on dusty hardpack is what cyclocross is all about. Maybe then we'll have more than one guy with a hope of hanging in Europe.

End of rant. . . . . . . . .?


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> End of rant. . . . . . . . .?


Happy to hear it has ended. Thanks for sharing.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> We are talking about riders crossing the tape into oncoming traffic on a muddy but reasonably flat and straight section of the course.


Ok, I have one question --

Did you actually attend US Nationals in Kansas City, or is the extent of your knowledge of the course a youtube clip that *never even shows the section of course directly before where the rider crossed the tape*?

If it is the latter, you might want to stop talking out of your ass.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

colinr said:


> Ok, I have one question --
> 
> Did you actually attend US Nationals in Kansas City, or is the extent of your knowledge of the course a youtube clip that *never even shows the section of course directly before where the rider crossed the tape*?
> 
> If it is the latter, you might want to stop talking out of your ass.


ROFL. The same clip shows several riders handling that section of the course with *no problems*. None of the riders on that side of the tape -- including the two that crossed over -- were going that fast.

So maybe you should stop talking, take the shrink wrap off your rig and get back out there. There is still a day or two to ride before Winter actually starts.  If you can't find anyone out there in NE who still wants to race, they are planning another series in Colorado _in March_. If you show up, I will lend you a long sleeve jeresy. :thumbsup:


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

colinr said:


> Ok, I have one question --
> 
> Did you actually attend US Nationals in Kansas City, or is the extent of your knowledge of the course a youtube clip that never even shows the section of course directly before where the rider crossed the tape?





PeanutButterBreath said:


> ROFL. The same clip shows several riders handling that section of the course with *no problems*. None of the riders on that side of the tape -- including the two that crossed over -- were going that fast.
> 
> So maybe you should stop talking, take the shrink wrap off your rig and get back out there. There is still a day or two to ride before Winter actually starts.  If you can't find anyone out there in NE who still wants to race, they are planning another series in Colorado _in March_. If you show up, I will lend you a long sleeve jeresy. :thumbsup:


Answer the question.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> ROFL. The same clip shows several riders handling that section of the course with *no problems*. None of the riders on that side of the tape -- including the two that crossed over -- were going that fast.


This is the kind of counter-intuitive conditions we were up against. There were lots of parts like this- you could roll through smoothly in certain parts on one lap and then inexplicably crash the next time in the same spot. It was incredibly unpredictable. 

I don't know why you're letting this get ugly. You weren't there and no matter how bad conditions may be where you are as you commute to work, you will not be able to understand what the people on here who raced in KC are talking about.


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

wunlap togo said:


> I don't know why you're letting this get ugly. You weren't there and no matter how bad conditions may be where you are as you commute to work, you will not be able to understand what the people on here who raced in KC are talking about.


Amen Josh!

Some people just don't get it but those of us who pinned on a number & are still licking our wounds understand. He**,I still cant sleep on my left side & I only ate it once. Brooke. put this stupid thread to rest. 

DP


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

wunlap togo said:


> This is the kind of counter-intuitive conditions we were up against. There were lots of parts like this- you could roll through smoothly in certain parts on one lap and then inexplicably crash the next time in the same spot. It was incredibly unpredictable.


That is par for muddy and snowy courses.



wunlap togo said:


> I don't know why you're letting this get ugly. You weren't there and no matter how bad conditions may be where you are as you commute to work, you will not be able to understand what the people on here who raced in KC are talking about.


Mostly 'cause I am bored. Partly because I have raced in Norcal and know what kind of skewed and sheltered perspective that might engender. Partly because we have folks out in NE cancelling races because of 10 measly inches of snow. Partly because of the wide-eyed accounts of the epic conditions in KC and the photographs meant to prove that no mortal should pretend to ride in in the hallowed ruts of the select few who registered and paid the entry fee. (And Is it really that ugly? Sheesh. Some people are as sensitive off the course as they are on the course.)

So yeah *colinr*, I wasn't there. Take your victory lap. But if you think a little cold mud is something to brag about, you haven't been anywhere. :ciappa:

Random photo of neither the snowiest nor the muddiest day of the season (http://www.pbase.com/swasmund/image/90066397)


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> That is par for muddy and snowy courses.
> 
> I have raced in Norcal and know what kind of skewed and sheltered perspective that might engender.


I lived and rode my bike year round in Maine from the time I was 5 till I was 21. I lived and rode year round for a year in Bozeman, MT for a year after that. For the next 4 years I lived and rode year round in Mammoth, CA till I moved to the Bay Area 5 years ago.

Dude, don't you think that SOMEONE would come out and say "I raced at nat's and PBB's right, it was a lot like a daily commute in a place that regularly gets freezing/thawing conditions and a dusting of snow" if that was even vaguely what it was like? You're not the only one here who's ridden and raced in snowy sub-freezing temperatures. 

You must be pretty bored.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

wunlap togo said:


> Dude, don't you think that SOMEONE would come out and say "I raced at nat's and PBB's right, it was a lot like a daily commute in a place that regularly gets freezing/thawing conditions and a dusting of snow" if that was even vaguely what it was like? You're not the only one here who's ridden and raced in snowy sub-freezing temperatures.


I'm guessing that no more than than 1% of the people that raced in KC are posting in this thread. You can swear up and down that the conditions in KC were unique and unprecedented. Obviously, nobody who wasn't there can refute that. All I can say is that the race reports and pictures don't back up the hype.

If it was hard to ride and you crashed a lot, well, that's racing in mud. I didn't think that pointing out something so obvious would get people this worked up. I will STFU now.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Here's a video that shows the approach to the section, which shows why more than one person crossed the tape:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=69q8oqNWts0


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

pretender said:


> Here's a video that shows the approach to the section, which shows why more than one person crossed the tape:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=69q8oqNWts0


Just think how much internet we could have saved if that was posted two days ago


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## dc.cyclocross (Oct 5, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I'm guessing that no more than than 1% of the people that raced in KC are posting in this thread. You can swear up and down that the conditions in KC were unique and unprecedented. Obviously, nobody who wasn't there can refute that. All I can say is that the race reports and pictures don't back up the hype.
> 
> If it was hard to ride and you crashed a lot, well, that's racing in mud. I didn't think that pointing out something so obvious would get people this worked up. I will STFU now.


what is the point that's being debated here? I have no idea if the conditions are unprecedented or not- it's like nothing I've seen. I've mtn biked and raced cross for years.

for me, the course lot worse than the blizzard at '05 nationals, but the atmospheric conditions were a lot milder. 

at KCCX- I could get around the course, but I went really slow out of fear of crashing. the race wasn't all that taxing for me, and all in all it felt anti-climatic and not really worth the hassle of doing nationals. to go fast you had to take a lot of risks- and the videos out there show the consequences. trebon's collision was one. power went flying off course too. I heard masters star mark noble broke his collarbone (in practice???). I saw a guy with about 20 stitches on his cheekbone. a lot of guys got slammed on the ice and bruised up. crashes had a big impact on the races- mccormack (cost the race), page (cost the race), compton (she had a big lead, still won), powers (took him out of contention), trebon (took him out of the race), and I think wells all crashed, just to name a few (maybe just about everyone did),. gerogia gould looked very uncomfortable.

aside from the course design issues, I'm not saying the course conditions were outside what is considered acceptable for cx. but they were very hard to race and outside the normal range.

I'm sure some people loved it, and others did a lot better than usual due to their skill. 
there was also a huge no-show rate- what accounts for that I can't say for sure.

the nature of CX is that you take what nature throws you, but that doesn't mean you have to pick a locale that is likely to have tundra conditions. some will love that, while I'd prefer they pick someplace with a smaller chance of being a blizzard- but that's just my preference. is there some rule/guideline that says nationals must have the toughest competition AND the craziest weather?

and if you are going to host a race in weather like that, then I think it's to be expected to have people talking about how epic it was.. surely that must be part of the point?


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

dc.cyclocross said:


> what is the point that's being debated here?
> - cut -
> crashes had a big impact on the races- mccormack (cost the race),
> page (cost the race), compton (she had a big lead, still won), powers
> ...


_gets it_ atmo.


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

dc.cyclocross said:


> I heard masters star mark noble broke his collarbone (in practice???).


Mark Noble wasn't racing because he broke his collarbone a couple of months ago.


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## dyg2001 (Sep 23, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I'm guessing that no more than than 1% of the people that raced in KC are posting in this thread. You can swear up and down that the conditions in KC were unique and unprecedented. Obviously, nobody who wasn't there can refute that. All I can say is that the race reports and pictures don't back up the hype.
> 
> If it was hard to ride and you crashed a lot, well, that's racing in mud. I didn't think that pointing out something so obvious would get people this worked up. I will STFU now.


I think people are taking offense because, based only on some photos, videos, and race reports, you are claiming (repeatedly, stubbornly, pig-headedly) that the Sunday KC nationals course was just a routine snowy/muddy course, no harder to ride than your daily winter bike commute, and insinuating that anybody who crashed or went off course in the elite race was either incompetent or irresponsibly riding out of control, when people who were there and actually rode the course that day, including some very experienced cross dudes like Wunlap and e-Ritchie, are trying to tell you that the conditions were very unusual, and that even champion caliber racers (Page, Wells, McCormack, Powers, Tillford, etc.) were crashing and blowing through the course tape all day.


In any case, KC '07 was epic, and I'm glad I went. While I was never anywhere near the front, I achieved my goal of not getting lapped or pulled in my two races, and I had a lot of fun. Watching my travel companion and hotel roommate Marko LaLonde win the singlespeed race was a real thrill. I feel bad for Trebon and anybody else who was injured, and I agree that improvements to the course should be made for safety, but in the end it's these brutally hard races that we will be talking about for years to come, long after the bruises have healed.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

*Clarifying*

I'm sorry if my tone inspired people to get their egos all tangled up. I said I see worse conditions in my commute. Please raise your hand if you can positively refute that. Nobody? Great, lets move on and not waste as much time arguing about what none of you can know as we've wasted arguing about what I can't know.

_None of my posts were meant to infer that conditions in KC were a walk in the park_. I'm sure that if I did race there, I would still be cleaning mud out of my various orfices. I can pretty much guarantee that I would be in the 95th percentile of cartoonish deck hitters. My point is not that people shouldn't be falling when it is muddy. My point is not that that I am a better rider than anybody here, there or anywhere else.

My point is that it is a serious f'-up to cross the tape and run head-on into another rider. It is seriously f'd-up to cross the tape, ride clear to the far side of the oncoming course, blithely pass the accident you just contributed to, lift the tape and ride under it with one hand and continue on your way (and if you can do that, don't tell me you were having trouble controlling your bike in the mud). If the course was the only issue, I doubt this would have been a singlular incident. The subsequent video doesn't aquit anyone -- the off camber appearance is created by the camera angle.

S'ing back TFU.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I'm sorry if my tone inspired people to get their egos all tangled up. I said I see worse conditions in my commute. Please raise your hand if you can positively refute that. Nobody? Great, lets move on and not waste as much time arguing about what none of you can know as we've wasted arguing about what I can't know.
> 
> _None of my posts were meant to infer that conditions in KC were a walk in the park_. I'm sure that if I did race there, I would still be cleaning mud out of my various orfices. I can pretty much guarantee that I would be in the 95th percentile of cartoonish deck hitters. My point is not that people shouldn't be falling when it is muddy. My point is not that that I am a better rider than anybody here, there or anywhere else.
> 
> ...


PBB, when you get home from your epic commute, more unbelieveably difficult than any single racer at CX nationals could ever imagine, you might want to change your lucky socks. They are starting to make it stink around here. 

Oooh, burn.

Ok, off to burn off some more "competitive ego" aggression on my poor co-workers. Bye.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

CDB said:


> PBB, when you get home from your epic commute, more unbelieveably difficult than any single racer at CX nationals could ever imagine, you might want to change your lucky socks. They are starting to make it stink around here.
> 
> Oooh, burn.
> 
> Ok, off to burn off some more "competitive ego" aggression on my poor co-workers. Bye.


I commute in my more condescending than thou socks.


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## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

Well, I wasn't there either (in fact, I am about to participate in my own nationals on the 5th of januari), but PBB, your posts puzzle me... There is a pretty general discussion beneath it all: Can you blame riders for their bike handling errors?

At this side of the pond, perhaps, we do not get as much snow, but conditions can be awful. Check out some video footage of Dutch and Belgium cross racing and you'll see people wiping out all the time. Riders sometimes take a line very close to the tape, because it is the best line. As conditions worsen, more and more riders wipe out into the tape, or worse, hit something that holds the tape up. Do they have bad riding skills? No way! That happens to world class riders. The only way to be fast is to enter a difficult section with speed, keep pedaling and pray a bit.

It's a race. The idea is to ride as fast as possible. I cannot blame the rider for wiping out like he did. And frankly, I cannot blame the other rider for heading as far offcourse like he did. He probably would have fallen if he tried to steer back a little more. Riders focus on the course and tend to forget everything else. They get tired and their decision making skills get poor. Race organizers should allways keep that in mind.


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## Corndog (Jan 18, 2006)

So my wife and I were there and raced on Sunday, in the collegiate events. The course was simply terrible to ride that early in the morning. The ground was as hard as concrete... icy, frozen, and very dangerous. Hell, they even removed the barriers from our races. You could be riding along at ANY moment... thinking things were fine.... and BAM! you were on your @ss. 10" deep frozen ruts, that you can't get out of once you fell in, since there was no give to the ground at all. I swear you could have hit the ground with a sledge hammer and not dented it. 

I can't imagine what it was like once a little bit of slop get on top of that frozen mess. The conditions were simply horrific. NONE of these pictures do the course conditions justice... you really had to be there to experience it. 

I know a couple people that did the single speed race on Sunday and they ran some 44-45mm wide tires and they said that really helped out a ton dealing with the ruts.


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## trumpetman (Dec 9, 2001)

*Mud And Ice*

Don't you just love it when the first sensation you have of a fall is the sound of the air forced out of your lungs as you slam into the ground.

John


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

Corndog said:


> NONE of these pictures do the course conditions justice... QUOTE]
> 
> WHAT???
> 
> I think my frozen rut pic with a crappy camera phone is award winning.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Longer vid of the section in question. You can see the leading 10 or so blast through and then its pandemonium.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Longer vid of the section in question. You can see the leading 10 or so blast through and then its pandemonium.


at 26 seconds in that was one of my riders tanking it.
who can i sue huh?

here's a better video where my pal jon hamblen
plays some tonsil hockey with a shutterbug atmo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L86hBo_qmH0&feature=related

*e-RICHIE©™®*
http://rscyclocross.blogspot.com/


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## aberry242 (Aug 19, 2004)

thebadger said:


> Those Portland USGP folks don't know how to set up a course either... tape and posts with the course doubling back on itself. How dare they do such a thing.


Great photo.

I just want to add my 2 cents here. I like it when the course doubles up like that. I like seeing how far I am behind the leaders, and how far ahead I am of the others. I like it when someone rides past and yells at me. It's one of the great things that makes 'cross different.

It happens all the time. If it hadn't been muddy, it wouldn't have mattered. It would have been a wicked-fast grassy section. Again, one of the great things about 'cross. Conditions change, and you adapt. Or you crash, whichever.

That said, I wasn't at Nationals. But, damn, did I want to be.

Andy


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