# Help me pick a wheel/spokes for Cyclocross!



## macming (Dec 2, 2004)

Currently I have a set of Chris King classic hubs (32H) laced to a set of Stan's Alpha 340 rims and crappy spokes. Originally, I was going to use an older set of Ksyriums for this duty, but after a little bit of off roading, the rear wheel is already out of true.

The Stan's rims are feather weights at 360 grams, so I'm thinking of lacing a set of stronger rims in place so I don't have to worry about the wheels. Even with only road riding, the rear wheel on the Stan's setup is always slightly out of true. I really have doubts that the 340s will hold up under my weight for cyclocross.

I went with the Stan's rims for tubeless compatibility, but that is no longer a priority since tubeless cross tires are just about none-existant. I don't plan on racing too many cross events with this bike, and I may use it for light off roading as well.

I'm about 210 lbs, and this new wheelset will be used on an older Kona Jake the Snake. The Ksyriums will be put towards backup road/trainer duty. 

My first question is, how important is a deep V rim for a cross wheelset? The rims themselves are a fair bit heavier, and I'm not sure if they'd be any stronger. The rims I'm considering are: Velocity A23, Velocty Deep V clincher rim, Kinlin XR300, HED C2, and the DT TK 540. Which one would you recommend for a 210 lb rider for cyclocross use?

My second question is regarding spokes. The Sapim CX Rays are about $4.50 each at my LBS. They'll be able to do a little nicer, and I might be able to buy them online. At 64 spokes, I'm spending a LOT more money over something like say Sapim Lasers. Which spokes would you recommend?

Thanks for everyone's input!

Ming


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

What "crappy spokes" are you using on the wheelset with Alpha 340 rims? If they are straight gauge then it is easier for the wheel to go out of true than with butted spokes. Also, with Alpha 340 rims you need to make sure that the spokes are adequately tensioned since they drop tension quite a bit when a tire is mounted.


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## macming (Dec 2, 2004)

valleycyclist said:


> What "crappy spokes" are you using on the wheelset with Alpha 340 rims? If they are straight gauge then it is easier for the wheel to go out of true than with butted spokes. Also, with Alpha 340 rims you need to make sure that the spokes are adequately tensioned since they drop tension quite a bit when a tire is mounted.


To be honest, the LBS used the cheapest straight gauge (not even DT Champion) for this wheelbuild. At the time, a CX ray was $6.50 at the LBS, and I didn't want to buy 64 of them.

So you think if I tensioned the 340s higher, I'd be OK with them for CX even though I'm 210 lbs?


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## gregnash (Jun 30, 2011)

At 340g for a 210# rider I dont know that I would use them for anything other than race days. I am still new at this but the 340s would seem like a super narrow, super light, race only rim. I agree with macming on the tensioning thing, with all the reading I have been doing lately (especially on the subject of wheelbuilding) it just sounds like you got a bum build and so the wheels will not stay in tru. Save what you got and invest in some good spokes and relace yourself. Maybe something like the Sapim Lazer or Race (found out that they can be had cheap from Danscomp.com) or go with DT Swiss Competition or higher spokes and brass nipples. I can tell you first hand that with a good handbuilt wheel they will be bulletproof. I have a pair of Flows laced to Shimano M629 hubs and DT Swiss Comps and hit some things REAL HARD (like going into a creek that was 3/4 wheel deep at speed and the wheel is still tru) and they have not failed me yet in over a year of riding. 

If you are not confident see if you can find a good local builder to do them for you or lace them yourself and take the time to true them. Lots of times, if you are in good with your LBS, they will allow you to use their tools to finish stuff so you might get lucky.

I say give the Stans and Kings another try, oh and things are turning up for tubeless in the CX arena. I spoke with Vittoria yesterday and they are releasing a TNT version of the Cross XG Pro in April, Kenda is slated to release three new CX SCT (their sealant compatible tire that they did in conjunction with Stans) and if you search around and on the CX Magazine forum there are quite a few tires that mount up Tubeless just fine.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

The stans rim is unreasonable to use for CX, especially at your weight. Get yourself a velocity dyad. It wont break, its wide enough for wide tires, and its beefy. Stans rims might make you finish the race 1 second faster, but thats useless if they break mid course, or get trashed after every race.

I only build with sapim races.. best price point, double butted, and a quality spoke. They're no better or worse than DT's, but they're cheaper.

CX rays are rolled flat lasers, or DT revs. DT revs are 89 cents a piece, for really the same spoke.


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## macming (Dec 2, 2004)

Thanks for the tips! My friend may buy the 340 rims off me, and I think they are simply too light of a rim to use off road. Partially, I think I just have the itch to build something new  The Alpha 340s would be great in a low weight, low spoke count wheel, but since I'm running 32 spokes per wheel, the 340s simply do not fit into the picture well.

What do people think about running a set of road clinchers (38mm) on my new wheels? I can ask the manufacturer to put a bit more carbon in place to make it stronger. Thinking about this place:

road bike carbon 38mm rim 700c clincher - light-bicycle


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## macming (Dec 2, 2004)

gregnash said:


> At 340g for a 210# rider I dont know that I would use them for anything other than race days. I am still new at this but the 340s would seem like a super narrow, super light, race only rim. I agree with macming on the tensioning thing, with all the reading I have been doing lately (especially on the subject of wheelbuilding) it just sounds like you got a bum build and so the wheels will not stay in tru. Save what you got and invest in some good spokes and relace yourself. Maybe something like the Sapim Lazer or Race (found out that they can be had cheap from Danscomp.com) or go with DT Swiss Competition or higher spokes and brass nipples. I can tell you first hand that with a good handbuilt wheel they will be bulletproof. I have a pair of Flows laced to Shimano M629 hubs and DT Swiss Comps and hit some things REAL HARD (like going into a creek that was 3/4 wheel deep at speed and the wheel is still tru) and they have not failed me yet in over a year of riding.
> 
> If you are not confident see if you can find a good local builder to do them for you or lace them yourself and take the time to true them. Lots of times, if you are in good with your LBS, they will allow you to use their tools to finish stuff so you might get lucky.
> 
> I say give the Stans and Kings another try, oh and things are turning up for tubeless in the CX arena. I spoke with Vittoria yesterday and they are releasing a TNT version of the Cross XG Pro in April, Kenda is slated to release three new CX SCT (their sealant compatible tire that they did in conjunction with Stans) and if you search around and on the CX Magazine forum there are quite a few tires that mount up Tubeless just fine.


The info on tubeless is good to know. I guess I could use use a conversion kit. For my projected cross use, I don't think I'll be winning any races any time soon. Reliability > speed at this point 




TomH said:


> The stans rim is unreasonable to use for CX, especially at your weight. Get yourself a velocity dyad. It wont break, its wide enough for wide tires, and its beefy. Stans rims might make you finish the race 1 second faster, but thats useless if they break mid course, or get trashed after every race.
> 
> I only build with sapim races.. best price point, double butted, and a quality spoke. They're no better or worse than DT's, but they're cheaper.
> 
> CX rays are rolled flat lasers, or DT revs. DT revs are 89 cents a piece, for really the same spoke.


What's the difference between the DYAD and the A23? Which rim is stiffer? They both look to be in the same weight range.

I think I'll be using Sapims for this build for sure. My LBS can get them at a single spoke basis. I know they will not cheap out and try to use an ill-lengthed spoke for my build.

It looks like both the Sapim lasers and races are double butted and around the same price, with the lasers being a little lighter. Do you think the lasers will hold up under my weight?


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## gregnash (Jun 30, 2011)

macming said:


> What's the difference between the DYAD and the A23? Which rim is stiffer? They both look to be in the same weight range.
> 
> I think I'll be using Sapims for this build for sure. My LBS can get them at a single spoke basis. I know they will not cheap out and try to use an ill-lengthed spoke for my build.
> 
> It looks like both the Sapim lasers and races are double butted and around the same price, with the lasers being a little lighter. Do you think the lasers will hold up under my weight?


Not to rag on you but why are you trying to go so light with your components? Unfortunately at 240 you are on the heavy side of riders (hell at 190 I am on the heavier side of riders:mad2 and that will cause issues with things like brakes, tires, and wheels (at least from my experience with mtbing). Go for something that you know will be bombproof and you will not really notice the few extra grams. 

The difference between the A23 and the Dyad is the, I have found, Dyad is a little harder to find in rim brake form in higher spoke counts. Along with that the Dyad is only 20mm wide while the A23 is 23mm wide, both are the same depth and close to same weight with the Dyad being a deeper rim than the A23 (596ERD v. 601ERD). Other than a few basic differences they are both stellar wheels (my bro runs the dyads with circus monkey hubs on his Titus Racer XC mtb and loves them). 

Theoretically the wider rim will cause a tire to "splay" out more thus giving you a wider footprint and thus more traction on the ground. This is great for CX as you are able to get more traction from the tires and decrease the "rounding" out of the tread. This gives the tires a more squarish profile. Depending on your use/need this may or may not be what you are looking for. I like a bit wider rim but really 3mm is only 0.118" which that split over both sides is not that much of an increase in size.


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## macming (Dec 2, 2004)

lol, I'm 210  So not exactly 240.

On my roadie, I've had great success with a set of 45mm Industry 9 carbon wheels (1150 grams), and a set of Zipp 404s (1250 grams). Both sets are working great for my weight, and I believe both use CX Ray spokes. So, if I can get away with lighter spokes, why not? 

My LBS can hook me up with A23s for $65/rim, so that looks like it'll be a good direction to go with. I love wide rims for mtbing, so obviously the wide stuff is great.

Now, I could also get a set of carbon 29'er rims (around 400 grams) for a bit more money. They have a UST profile, but the internal width is 23mm. I think that maybe TOO wide for a 35C CX tire. What are your thoughts? I'd make sure to use a set of carbon specific pads if I go down that route.



gregnash said:


> Not to rag on you but why are you trying to go so light with your components? Unfortunately at 240 you are on the heavy side of riders (hell at 190 I am on the heavier side of riders:mad2 and that will cause issues with things like brakes, tires, and wheels (at least from my experience with mtbing). Go for something that you know will be bombproof and you will not really notice the few extra grams.
> 
> The difference between the A23 and the Dyad is the, I have found, Dyad is a little harder to find in rim brake form in higher spoke counts. Along with that the Dyad is only 20mm wide while the A23 is 23mm wide, both are the same depth and close to same weight with the Dyad being a deeper rim than the A23 (596ERD v. 601ERD). Other than a few basic differences they are both stellar wheels (my bro runs the dyads with circus monkey hubs on his Titus Racer XC mtb and loves them).
> 
> Theoretically the wider rim will cause a tire to "splay" out more thus giving you a wider footprint and thus more traction on the ground. This is great for CX as you are able to get more traction from the tires and decrease the "rounding" out of the tread. This gives the tires a more squarish profile. Depending on your use/need this may or may not be what you are looking for. I like a bit wider rim but really 3mm is only 0.118" which that split over both sides is not that much of an increase in size.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

gregnash said:


> Along with that the Dyad is only 20mm wide while the A23 is 23mm wide, both are the same depth and close to same weight with the Dyad being a deeper rim than the A23 (596ERD v. 601ERD).


The dyad is wider at 24mm.. its also a bit heavier, about 60g over the a23.


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## gregnash (Jun 30, 2011)

macming said:


> lol, I'm 210  So not exactly 240.
> 
> On my roadie, I've had great success with a set of 45mm Industry 9 carbon wheels (1150 grams), and a set of Zipp 404s (1250 grams). Both sets are working great for my weight, and I believe both use CX Ray spokes. So, if I can get away with lighter spokes, why not?
> 
> ...


Don't know where I saw that you were 240ish.. yeah then the others should be fine at that weight. I guess it really comes down more to what you plan to do with them and how much abuse you plan to give them. Tensioned right the lighter spokes should be fine. I am a person that likes to play it safe with that kind of stuff, do some more research and see what they can handle, you might be able to get away with the double-butted 1.8/1.6/1.8 spokes. 

I am hard on stuff so I am wary of carbon as I dont have the money to replace them if I do curb something and give them a deep scratch (hence why I stayed away from carbon mtb frames). Again it seems like it is going to be more preference then anything.



TomH said:


> The dyad is wider at 24mm.. its also a bit heavier, about 60g over the a23.


Yeah I noticed that. When I as looking at the diagram on Velocity it looked like it said they were 20mm (or I could have been thinking of the Aero or something else). My bad, Dyad are a good bit heavier and just as wide. Again it all depends on what you want to do with the wheels.


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## macming (Dec 2, 2004)

TomH said:


> The dyad is wider at 24mm.. its also a bit heavier, about 60g over the a23.


Good to know! Thanks!

What do you think about using a Chinese 38mm clincher rim for this instead? It will be more aero and more stable. I can ask the manufacturer to put on a bit more carbon to make it a bit stronger.



gregnash said:


> Don't know where I saw that you were 240ish.. yeah then the others should be fine at that weight. I guess it really comes down more to what you plan to do with them and how much abuse you plan to give them. Tensioned right the lighter spokes should be fine. I am a person that likes to play it safe with that kind of stuff, do some more research and see what they can handle, you might be able to get away with the double-butted 1.8/1.6/1.8 spokes.
> 
> I am hard on stuff so I am wary of carbon as I dont have the money to replace them if I do curb something and give them a deep scratch (hence why I stayed away from carbon mtb frames). Again it seems like it is going to be more preference then anything.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice on spokes  These carbon rims I'm looking at are only about $130 each. With shipping and everything, two rims will run about $325 ish. I paid almost that much for my Alpha 340s!

All the research I did are showing the rims are reasonbly good quality. I'm going to work with the manufacturer to ensure the rims are made a little more beefy. I'm considering putting a set of these carbon rims on my MTBs as well because of their price, and the fact I will end up with a lighter and stiffer wheelset


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## macming (Dec 2, 2004)

I did a LOT more reading tonight, and I have came to the conclusion that I will get a set of Velocity A23 rims, Sapim Laser spokes, and either Sapim or DT nipples.

The Chinese carbon clinchers are much narrower than the A23, and I need all the braking power I can get from this set. The A23s are also much cheaper than the competition (Chinese carbon clinchers, Hed C2).

For the purpose of this build, I think the A23s will be the perfect fit. Now, what color rim should I go with for that bike? White rims? Silver?

The front Chris King hub is silver, and rear is red if that matters. Also, silver or black spokes? What color spoke nipples? :aureola:


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