# Sew-up/ tubular tires vs.tubeless w/ Stan's tires



## Erik_A (Sep 14, 2008)

Just finished watching "Jeremy Powers Cross Camp" DVD with my daughter before we both race the Tacchino Ciclocross race in Maryland tomorrow morning. Jeremy Powers' Cross Camp 

It was a really good short primer; mainly for beginners (like us). He made a very good case for using sew-up/ tubular tires over clinchers. He didn't mention tubeless, like Stan's.

I was thinking of going with Velocity A23 rims with a Stan's tubeless tire setup. For a big guy (6'-4" - 220 lbs) will I be able to run Stan's tubeless at the same lower pressures as tubeless?

If not and sew-up/ tublular rims are better; where would I start looking for a decent priced, strong/ reliable, CX tubular rim (that would hold up to my weight)?


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Erik I am your size, maybe a tad taller and heavier.*



Erik_A said:


> Just finished watching "Jeremy Powers Cross Camp" DVD with my daughter before we both race the Tacchino Ciclocross race in Maryland tomorrow morning. Jeremy Powers' Cross Camp
> 
> It was a really good short primer; mainly for beginners (like us). He made a very good case for using sew-up/ tubular tires over clinchers. He didn't mention tubeless, like Stan's.
> 
> ...


you will not be able to run tubeless as low as tubular. Again the main advantage to a tubular is the sidewall. It has no function of trying to hold the tire onto the rim (unlike a clincher, and yes a tubeless tire is a clincher as well) so even at equal pressure the tubular will still handle far better as the sidewall will be more supple and thus mold to the terrain better. This is the part the tubeless crowd has not fully grasped. Lower pressure PLUS more supple sidewalls.

where to find them. 
1) go to ebay, go to wheels, type tubular into the search function. pass all the low spoke count fancy wheels and look for the 32 hole 3 x wheels no one wants. Typically a good box section rim laced to ultegra, DA, record hubs. You typically will win the auctions for under $300.


----------



## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> you will not be able to run tubeless as low as tubular.


I agree. As far as handling concerned, nothing beats a tubular. The sidewalls have more stability in them, but the real tric is the rim shape. A conventional rim has bead hooks. Those have a shape that is easily dented by a hit and they are 4-5mm closer to the ground compared to a tubular rim. At the same pressure, you are less likely to hit the rim and if you do, in most cases, nothing gets hurt. The tire tread and casing sort of protects the rimbed.

The downsides of tubulars are found on the economic side. They are obviously stuck to the rim, which means that if you want to change tires according to course conditions, you'll need different wheelsets. If you want as little investment as possible and you are not the 'ride 1 allround tread everywhere' type, tubeless might be for you.

Sure, changing a tubeless setup is a hassle too initially, but after some research and practice, it starts getting quick and safe. The requirement is that the tires have been sealed before and you'd have to know in advance you can seat them in the bead hooks with a floor pump. Slightly risky the hour before a race, but no problem 1 or 2 days before, after reading the latest weather report.


----------



## Erik_A (Sep 14, 2008)

thanks-



atpjunkie said:


> where to find them.
> 1) go to ebay, go to wheels, type tubular into the search function. pass all the low spoke count fancy wheels and look for the 32 hole 3 x wheels no one wants. Typically a good box section rim laced to ultegra, DA, record hubs. You typically will win the auctions for under $300.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

J-K said:


> I agree. As far as handling concerned, nothing beats a tubular. The sidewalls have more stability in them, but the real tric is the rim shape. A conventional rim has bead hooks. Those have a shape that is easily dented by a hit and they *are 4-5mm closer to the ground compared to a tubular rim.* At the same pressure, you are less likely to hit the rim and if you do, in most cases, nothing gets hurt. The tire tread and casing sort of protects the rimbed.
> 
> The downsides of tubulars are found on the economic side. They are obviously stuck to the rim, which means that if you want to change tires according to course conditions, you'll need different wheelsets. If you want as little investment as possible and you are not the 'ride 1 allround tread everywhere' type, tubeless might be for you.
> 
> Sure, changing a tubeless setup is a hassle too initially, but after some research and practice, it starts getting quick and safe. The requirement is that the tires have been sealed before and you'd have to know in advance you can seat them in the bead hooks with a floor pump. Slightly risky the hour before a race, but no problem 1 or 2 days before, after reading the latest weather report.


how do you figure?


----------



## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> how do you figure?


Good call. That was nonsense now that I read it again. :mad2: The distance to the ground would be determined by the tire...


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*but in all honesty*



J-K said:


> I agree. As far as handling concerned, nothing beats a tubular. The sidewalls have more stability in them, but the real tric is the rim shape. A conventional rim has bead hooks. Those have a shape that is easily dented by a hit and they are 4-5mm closer to the ground compared to a tubular rim. At the same pressure, you are less likely to hit the rim and if you do, in most cases, nothing gets hurt. The tire tread and casing sort of protects the rimbed.
> 
> The downsides of tubulars are found on the economic side. They are obviously stuck to the rim, which means that if you want to change tires according to course conditions, you'll need different wheelsets. If you want as little investment as possible and you are not the 'ride 1 allround tread everywhere' type, tubeless might be for you.
> 
> Sure, changing a tubeless setup is a hassle too initially, but after some research and practice, it starts getting quick and safe. The requirement is that the tires have been sealed before and you'd have to know in advance you can seat them in the bead hooks with a floor pump. Slightly risky the hour before a race, but no problem 1 or 2 days before, after reading the latest weather report.


I purchased 3 tubular wheelsets and tires for less money than 1 set of Ksyriums wheels


----------



## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Erik_A said:


> thanks-


Yeah, it's probably not what you wanted to hear- but atpjunkie got it perfectly correct (as always). I went the route you were considering a coupla years ago. It was just a stepping stone to me buying tubulars- don't waste your money.
Yes, I was able to run lower pressure than clinchers, but NO I was not able to run as low as tubular, and more importantly the ride was not as good as tubies.
Are they a bit of a pain? Well, yes- but they're worth it.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

J-K said:


> Good call. That was nonsense now that I read it again. :mad2: The distance to the ground would be determined by the tire...


exactly...the O.D. of the rim is the same, but the clincher sidewall is not supported like the tubular. you must have been distracted by late night tv...or something...


----------



## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

Since you're local to the DC area, keep an eye on CL. There's the occasional tubular wheelset that comes up for fairly inexpensive. Ebay is still your friend. At 220, look for a 36h rear wheel and a 32h front for max durability.

You don't need a carbon tubular to race cross successfully. IME the courses around here rarely let you get up to speed for very long before the #$%#$ organizer puts in yet another 180deg turn. 

Put it this way: IMO today's Tacchino course has some of the longest straights on it of the season. Schooley Mill may be in the running too. 

M


----------



## Erik_A (Sep 14, 2008)

Thanks again for the advice, the Tacchino race today was fun - I was super slow and felt out of shape, but my 11 year old got 5th place in the 10-14 girls. It was a really fun day. One thing that I noticed was almost no carbon bikes, and some racers tearing it up with surly cross checks (or similar) and clinchers - lots of run of the mill aluminum frames. Only saw one person with disc brakes the whole day. There was an older "master" racer hopping the barriers on his single speed. Lots of fun. 



MShaw said:


> Since you're local to the DC area, keep an eye on CL. There's the occasional tubular wheelset that comes up for fairly inexpensive. Ebay is still your friend. At 220, look for a 36h rear wheel and a 32h front for max durability.
> 
> You don't need a carbon tubular to race cross successfully. IME the courses around here rarely let you get up to speed for very long before the #$%#$ organizer puts in yet another 180deg turn.
> 
> ...


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

MShaw said:


> Since you're local to the DC area, keep an eye on CL. There's the occasional tubular wheelset that comes up for fairly inexpensive. Ebay is still your friend. At 220, look for a 36h rear wheel and a 32h front for max durability.
> 
> You don't need a carbon tubular to race cross successfully. IME the courses around here rarely let you *get up to speed* for very long before the #$%#$ organizer puts in yet another 180deg turn.
> 
> ...


CX racers don't use carbon wheels because they're aero...


----------



## jldickerson3 (Mar 9, 2006)

*Definitely Check Craigslist*

I trolled around on CL for a few months this summer and ended up with a set of Older 28/32 Velocity Escape Tubulars on older White Industries hubs for $90! Incredible deal! And I just missed a pair of Mavic Ceramic Tubulars for $150! Folks don't know what to do with them and often can't sell them. Hence, your opportunity to step in and be their "lowballing" savior.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yup*



jldickerson3 said:


> I trolled around on CL for a few months this summer and ended up with a set of Older 28/32 Velocity Escape Tubulars on older White Industries hubs for $90! Incredible deal! And I just missed a pair of Mavic Ceramic Tubulars for $150! Folks don't know what to do with them and often can't sell them. Hence, your opportunity to step in and be their "lowballing" savior.


$200 set of tubulars, $140 for tires, $10 glue $350 ready to race


----------



## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> exactly...the O.D. of the rim is the same, but the clincher sidewall is not supported like the tubular. you must have been distracted by late night tv...or something...


It's worse: This was before coffee in the morning. I'm in Europe ;-)


----------



## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

cxwrench said:


> CX racers don't use carbon wheels because they're aero...


There's really no such thing as a sandy cross course in the DC area. Mud that deep is rare... 

...but they certainly LOOK cool! ex: (Jared on his Mad Fiber wheels...)

M


----------



## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

I'm not as heavy as you and I have probably the best tubeless setup available. The facts:

* I'm about 180 now.
* I have Stan's 355 rims -- these are the best tubeless rims for rim brakes ever. No longer manufactured.
* I run Clement PDX clinchers tubeless

The 355 rims are wide. I did side by side comparisons of my PDX clinchers to PDX tubulars -- both 33mm -- and mine had a few more mm width. The benefit is twofold. First, there is more volume so better cushion. Second, slightly lower profile so less fold over.

I am running pressure comparable to my Challenge Griffo tubular tires. Just yesterday I tried an alternate line at race speed that resulted in my rear tire almost folding over -- it was a sphincter clinching moment -- with no burping.

I'm really pleased with my tubeless setup and haven't even been bringing my tubies for the pit. I really want to get a disc bike and start running some of the new fat Stan's disc only rims.


----------



## bikenerd (Jan 22, 2004)

wtfbbq said:


> I'm really pleased with my tubeless setup . . . I really want to get a disc bike and . . .


Heretic.


----------



## CouchingTiger (Mar 5, 2007)

As I discovered the hard way this weekend, tubeless has severe limitations. I ran tubeless on my new SuperX disc with the Stans 340 rims. Couldn't get a burp in a week of trying so lined up race day with them set at 36/40psi fr/rr. On a lap late in the race I washed the front out in a low speed corner. When it eventually caught, it burped all but about 10psi. 

I was forced to ride the multiple switchbacks and main descent back down to the pit, watching as I lost position. I switched to the pit bike and was back out but the damage was done I'd never get back to the head of the race. For day two I went with tubes and another 5psi fr/rr with no issues. The Carver carbon tubular disc wheelset showed up at my house from BigAl at Bikeman today.That will be my one and only tubeless experience for cross, ever.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

What do you all think of Neuvation wheels? $340 for the 1350gr wheelset. 20/24 spoke count. 
http://www.neuvationcycling.com/product/neuvation-r-tubular-set-1557.htm


Another option is Williams. $399, a half pound heavier, but they come with a pair of griffos for $85.
http://www.williamscycling.com/CYCLO-CROSS-Alloy-Tubular--Cross-Tire-Special_p_48.html



I suppose I could just upgrade my road wheelset and glue tubies on those carbon hoops...


----------



## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

CouchingTiger said:


> As I discovered the hard way this weekend, tubeless has severe limitations. I ran tubeless on my new SuperX disc with the Stans 340 rims. Couldn't get a burp in a week of trying so lined up race day with them set at 36/40psi fr/rr. On a lap late in the race I washed the front out in a low speed corner. When it eventually caught, it burped all but about 10psi.


The Alpha rims are crap for off road and cross. They are more narrow than the mtb rims and present a less burp resistant profile. Take a look at the bead hook profiles of the ZTR rims. Check out how aggressive the 355 and Arch are. Compare to the Alphas and even the Iron Cross.

ZTR Rims

Iron Cross looks great for width. Just not that aggressive on the bead hooks though. I run 355s myself. Am currently building up a set with 355 front and Arch rear (I could only find one 29er 355 for sale in the US, lol).


----------



## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> I purchased 3 tubular wheelsets and tires for less money than 1 set of Ksyriums wheels


more than anything this speaks to how overpriced ksyriums are.


----------

