# Basso Leaves Discovery



## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Thepaceline.com has posted a press release titled "DISCOVERY CHANNEL PRO CYCLING TEAM RELEASES IVAN BASSO".

Apparently Basso asked to leave voluntarily, according to the press release.

Check it out. www.thepaceline.com


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

i kind of know it'll end up like this ( Basso leaving disco ) and he did it very gentleman's way ( applaud for that ) but at the same time sad not only he longer rides for my favorite team but " kind of " admit he use " illegal EPO and other stuffs ". who would've thought in 2005, it would be that time we saw Lance, Jan and Basso riding the same and final tour. now i guess there's no one can stop Vino from winning the big one, unless of course he crashed or may be involves in this doping fiasco too??


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

z ken said:


> he did it very gentleman's way ( applaud for that )


Ditto. Assuming he truly left on his own with no pressure from the team and he requested yesterday's meeting with Stapleton and Johan (per the press release), it was a classy move by him to deflect attention away from Johan & Co., especially while they're looking for a lead sponsor. I guess Basso -- who had a good relationship with Bjarne Riis -- didn't want to see Johan and the rest of the team get dragged through the mud as the Giro approaches the way CSC went through last July's mess during the Tour.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

yeah, I'm sure there was absolutely no pressure from Disco. Probably was given the choice between resigning and keeping a shred of dignity or getting booted off in a few days when the DNA match is made/leaked. Put a fork in him.

I'm sure Levi is really upset by the news as well. If Disco can protect him and ride for him like they did for LA, he could actually have a chance this year (especially if the new Puerto documents implicate Vino, Valverde, and a few others-Kloden?)


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> Probably was given the choice between resigning and keeping a shred of dignity or getting booted off in a few days when the DNA match is made/leaked.


That's what I thought also...  I'm sure they showed him the already written press release and said: "you are out but we'll be gentle and make it look like it was your idea and that you are that classy."


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## biker_boy (Sep 10, 2002)

Wow. I guess I should have seen it coming. I hoped he was clean, but it appears that's not the case.

Now CSC has some questions to answer.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

biker_boy said:


> Now CSC has some questions to answer.


Good point. Riis will probably say, "forget the past, let's look to the future."


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

biker_boy said:


> Now CSC has some questions to answer.


Why? Since Festina, I don't think any team was dumb enough to actually organize the doping, although I wouldn't be surprised if teams hired doctors who were doping some of the riders on the team.

Why would teams take on any risk? Just hire riders who get results. They know the score, if caught, they will be sacked and the team will claim absolutely no knowledge of anything.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*yup*



Dwayne Barry said:


> Why? Since Festina, I don't think any team was dumb enough to actually organize the doping, although I wouldn't be surprised if teams hired doctors who were doping some of the riders on the team.
> 
> Why would teams take on any risk? Just hire riders who get results. They know the score, if caught, they will be sacked and the team will claim absolutely no knowledge of anything.


I think this is the summary for the next 3 years in cycling or so.......


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*BOOM and then there were none*

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may01news2

Looks like everyone just got the finger.......


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

actually, you can have your team doctors who used to run your doping program now put together your anti-doping program just like T-Mobile...the same doctors that supervised the doping of a now respected DS and former tour champion, who is now leading the call for stronger anti-doping programs. What a sport!


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Re: Hamilton: Couldn't happen to a "nicer" guy. Really, he could have come clean two+ years ago and been done with this mess, but he thinks everyone is stupid enough to believe him.

What's scary is that some of our "favorite" riders could be involved in those other code names. Bettini is my favorite rider, and I can't help but think he is one of those "Clasicomano"

As for Basso, I along with several other folks didn't think he'd actually ever race in the TdF, so him not being involved in the Giro (and subsequently without team) is no stretch or surprise.

Disco will show up at the Giro because they have to, and they'll chase "stage wins." Maybe they put Popovych in there for GC.


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## biker_boy (Sep 10, 2002)

Look at T-Mobile. That whole place got gutted at the end of last season. You can't tell me that the managers and directeurs sportifs didn't know what was going on with Ullrich. They would still have their jobs if they were 'totally clueless' on the doping front.

That and I have a burning dislike for Bjarne Riis given recent news reports about his scruples.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Einstruzende said:


> Re: Hamilton: Couldn't happen to a "nicer" guy. Really, he could have come clean two+ years ago and been done with this mess, but he thinks everyone is stupid enough to believe him.
> 
> What's scary is that some of our "favorite" riders could be involved in those other code names. Bettini is my favorite rider, and I can't help but think he is one of those "Clasicomano"
> 
> ...


Bettini is the most anti-DNA sample rider... makes you wonder why. Or not really. I think we are living the end of an era as far as doping and some big names are concerned.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> Bettini is the most anti-DNA sample rider... makes you wonder why. Or not really. I think we are living the end of an era as far as doping and some big names are concerned.


end of era as far as some big names sure. 
End of doping? doubtful, to phrase it politely.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

"I think we are living the end of an era as far as doping"

No way, still too hard to detect, it will just go further underground and the payback for getting on a "program" will likely be even greater than before because many riders may not have the access or money.

"and some big names are concerned."

Most likely many more biggies will come down (e.g. Bettini, Valverde, etc.)

Although the Spanish cyclists still appear (ironically) to be in the best position because their federation hasn't given any indication they are going to go after them. Time for the UCI to show some leadership, as unlikely as that may be.


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## mquetel (Apr 2, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Although the Spanish cyclists still appear (ironically) to be in the best position because their federation hasn't given any indication they are going to go after them. Time for the UCI to show some leadership, as unlikely as that may be.


If race organizers tell riders or their teams not to bother showing up, then I don't think it matters what the federation is willing (or not willing) to do.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

den bakker said:


> End of doping? doubtful, to phrase it politely.


A man can hope, however naive it is.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

how about leadership within the peloton? Simoni's calling out of Basso was one of the few times I've seen a top-level rider call out another without serious consequences from other riders. Breaking the code of silence used to be doom for a rider,but if enough riders are clean (including team leaders) and they call out others, that would be a big step. That and civil/criminal proceedings against riders who get caught to up the risk of doping.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*sure....BUT*



stevesbike said:


> how about leadership within the peloton? Simoni's calling out of Basso was one of the few times I've seen a top-level rider call out another without serious consequences from other riders. Breaking the code of silence used to be doom for a rider,but if enough riders are clean (including team leaders) and they call out others, that would be a big step. That and civil/criminal proceedings against riders who get caught to up the risk of doping.



Simoni did for whatever reason what could be called a positive trend.....ratting out the elite riders......However, the man does not go with the message. He moans and groans about everything that does not go his way or involve a victory on his part


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

agreed re Simoni-just that it signals some change for a team leader to say what he did-and he deserved to be pissed given the way Basso rode in last year's Giro. Compare it to what happened to Simeoni when he said something (under oath in a court) about Ferrari and suffered the wrath of LA and others who were basically banished in the peloton


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

"Simoni's calling out of Basso was one of the few times I've seen a top-level rider call out another without serious consequences from other riders." 

Well I'm not so sure Simoni was complaining about Basso doping per se, people in stone houses and all that...

I think it was more that Basso was immodest about it and made everyone else look like fools and then he was greedy on top of that. I think that is what Simoni was really objecting to, not so much the doping.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

well, he did contrast Rebellin and Basso saying Rebellin "does not have the need to travel to Spain" which at least is an allusion to Fuentes and raised a question mark about this margin in the Giro. My point was only that there's two ways to solve these sorts of collective action problems. One is external enforcement; the other is internal. It would go a long way toward cleaning up the sport if some riders start calling others out and doing internal enforcement. The code of silence is a big obstacle to cleaning up the sport..


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I think it was more that Basso was immodest about it and made everyone else look like fools and then he was greedy on top of that. I think that is what Simoni was really objecting to, not so much the doping.


I often wonder about that sort of motivation with Pantani's 1999 positive result. He was wearing the pink, climber and sprint jersey at the time in the Giro.

Is there an online gambling venue for who's next? I have a huge wad of cash for Vino as Clasicomano Liegi.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the way cycling is going, you'd think unibet would have a pool online for this sort of gambling. I have some money I'd like to put down on Valv (Pito) and Cowboy.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

I'm betting _Valv aka Valverde aka 'I'm tranquil, I haven't been caught'_ and _Clasicomano aka Bettini aka 'I'll quit cycling before I give my DNA'_.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

The odds of my winning the TDF have increased greatly.


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## zooog (Mar 18, 2002)

I am not surprised at the news.Discovery took a chance and in the end the team loses...


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Disagree*



zooog said:


> I am not surprised at the news.Discovery took a chance and in the end the team loses...


Disco didn't lose. They signed Basso and kept him out of some other teams hands just in case he was clean. It was good hedge move to have signed him. They got him off the team quickly enough. Besides, It makes CSC look bad because he was doping while he was on CSC under the tutelage of a doper.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I don't think it makes CSC look bad at all since they canned him and didn't hire other known damaged goods to replace him. But it does make Disco look like a den of thieves surpassed only by Tinkoff. For the rest of us employers it's known as negligent hiring.


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## bornin53 (Sep 3, 2005)

*Oscar Periero Repeats at TdF*

or maybe Ekimov makes a comeback for the Tour win.


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## biker_boy (Sep 10, 2002)

CSC didn't fire him. He left. Bjarne was bitter as hell when all this went down.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

They didn't fire him, they asked him to leave, he was asked to leave like, I'm sure, Disco just did...


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

How to dodge a DNA test. Cost him his job for the moment but he can still say that he hasn't been linked to anything. That'll be enough for another team, and this time he won't have anything in his contract about obligatory DNA tests.

How about a pool as to which team he goes to? I'm thinking Tinkof.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Wow!
At the rate the top stars are falling, look for the following finishing order at the end of July.

1) Tom Boonen
2) Thor Hushovd (and the polka dot jersey) 
3) Robbie McEwen (and the green jersey)

Unless any one or all of them are implicated in Operacion Puerto or any other lab anywhere in the world.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

terzo rene said:


> I don't think it makes CSC look bad at all since they canned him and didn't hire other known damaged goods to replace him.




I disagree. Basso was dumped by ferretti at fassa bortolo because " he could not win". Suddenly, he goes to CSC, and becomes the mighty Grand Tour threat. This metamorphosis did not occur because the team ran commando routines in the woods before the season.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Pantani...*



terzo rene said:


> I often wonder about that sort of motivation with Pantani's 1999 positive result. He was wearing the pink, climber and sprint jersey at the time in the Giro.
> 
> Is there an online gambling venue for who's next? I have a huge wad of cash for Vino as Clasicomano Liegi.


Pantani never tested positive for anything. He did get popped for high crit level though. There is a big difference. Do I think he wasn't doping. Ha! No likely, I'm sure he was on the juice, but please, get the facts straight. Pantani, never tested positive for any drugs.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Riis..*



Fignon's Barber said:


> I disagree. Basso was dumped by ferretti at fassa bortolo because " he could not win". Suddenly, he goes to CSC, and becomes the mighty Grand Tour threat. This metamorphosis did not occur because the team ran commando routines in the woods before the season.


Riis wasn't known as Mr. 60% for nothing. And look at the allegations coming out against him and T-Mobile in 1996. Riis was a high level doper, more than likely, when he was racing bikes. I do think that he is a great tactical mind though, as far as racing goes, and that has something to do with how he gets his team to perform. Don't know if he's got them on the juice, but nothing would surprise me anymore really.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you'd certaintly have to wonder that if a DS decided during his career that the only way he could be competitive would be to dope, what would change when he started running a team. Certainly riders weren't up at the levels of EPO they were in the mid-90s, but if you believe virtually every top rider is doped how else can your team compete?

Can someone who has been around that long also not recognize when a rider is doping-I mean you don't have to be a genuis to see the change with Basso or wonder how he's able to destroy everyone at the Giro last year..there's at least a silent contract of don't ask, don't tell going on with both sides complicit.


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## capt_phun (Jun 14, 2004)

All of this will pan out just fine. Remember, Basso "looked Bruyneel in the eyes" and said he was not a doper. 
"doesn't this thread belong in the doping forum"


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

well, over 100 pro riders have been identified through just one doping network. So, what's exactly the difference between the pro and doping forums??


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Fignon's Barber said:


> I disagree. Basso was dumped by ferretti at fassa bortolo because " he could not win". Suddenly, he goes to CSC, and becomes the mighty Grand Tour threat. This metamorphosis did not occur because the team ran commando routines in the woods before the season.


Suddenly? 
2002: nr 11 in TdF while on Fassa
2003: nr 7 in TdF while on Fassa
2004: nr 3 in TdF while on CSC
2005: nr 2 in TdF while on CSC. 
Seems like a decent improvement from year to year but nothing exceptional.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*There are...*



stevesbike said:


> you'd certaintly have to wonder that if a DS decided during his career that the only way he could be competitive would be to dope, what would change when he started running a team. Certainly riders weren't up at the levels of EPO they were in the mid-90s, but if you believe virtually every top rider is doped how else can your team compete?
> 
> Can someone who has been around that long also not recognize when a rider is doping-I mean you don't have to be a genuis to see the change with Basso or wonder how he's able to destroy everyone at the Giro last year..there's at least a silent contract of don't ask, don't tell going on with both sides complicit.


I mean, there are other possibilities for his increase in performance. He might be a late bloomer, and he has more accumulated miles in his legs, and lots of times, guys who are more successful in grand tours are a touch older. There are of course exceptions to this rule as always, but lots of times, they are older. It could also have something to do with his training. Ferretti was a harsh taskmaster, known to coach in the "old ways", in other words, just ride a lot, and things would be OK. This, as we know, works for some folks, but for others, eh, not so much. He could have decided to start working with a new coach, one who actually designed a program for his abilities, and his fitness levels, and then fine tuned through the years. Remember, he didn't go from nobody to somebody overnight, it took a few years before he was really crushing it. Also, Riis appears to get more out of his riders. Example, Bobby Julich. Left for dead by everyone else, resurrected under Riis. And even if they are all doping, it still takes a lot of hard work to be good. As someone once said, doping wouldn't make a donkey into a thoroughbred, or something to that effect. 

I'm not trying to defend Basso here, but there are plauisble explanations for his improvement in performance.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

capt_phun said:


> Remember, Basso "looked Bruyneel in the eyes" and said he was not a doper.
> "doesn't this thread belong in the doping forum"


Bush did the same with Vlad Putin, and that's worked out just swimmingly. 

I sadly feel that we could almost put all pro cycling into the doping forum.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

well, Basso beat Gutierrez by over 9 minutes in the 2006 Giro, Simoni by 12 and Cunego by 18. Gutierrez was later suspended by Phonak for being implicated in Puerto. That is one of the largest margins in modern Giro history. I don't recall Armstrong winning a tour by that kind of margin. That's riding on another planet-if you're the DS don't you wonder just a little bit?


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

Fignon's Barber said:


> I disagree. Basso was dumped by ferretti at fassa bortolo because " he could not win". Suddenly, he goes to CSC, and becomes the mighty Grand Tour threat. This metamorphosis did not occur because the team ran commando routines in the woods before the season.


I remember reading in one of the mags in 2000-2001 that Basso was going to be the next big Italian GT man.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> That's riding on another planet


Like an extra-terrestrial, perhaps?


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

fornaca68 said:


> Thepaceline.com has posted a press release titled "DISCOVERY CHANNEL PRO CYCLING TEAM RELEASES IVAN BASSO".
> 
> Apparently Basso asked to leave voluntarily, according to the press release.
> 
> Check it out. www.thepaceline.com



I think LEVI threatened him. :idea:


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*not quite*



magnolialover said:


> Pantani never tested positive for anything. He did get popped for high crit level though. There is a big difference. Do I think he wasn't doping. Ha! No likely, I'm sure he was on the juice, but please, get the facts straight. Pantani, never tested positive for any drugs.



He tested positive when they found him coked out and dead in that Hotel room. JUST IN THE KNICK OF TIME..............Bravo for the sport putting its foot down there huh?

I recall the immortal: I do not need drugs to win, I need mountains.....

Marco was an enormous talent; he brought fire and color to the sport. I miss that about him. They can have the rest.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

z ken said:


> i kind of know it'll end up like this ( Basso leaving disco ) and he did it very gentleman's way ( applaud for that ) but at the same time sad not only he longer rides for my favorite team but " kind of " admit he use " illegal EPO and other stuffs ". who would've thought in 2005, it would be that time we saw Lance, Jan and Basso riding the same and final tour. now i guess there's no one can stop Vino from winning the big one, unless of course he crashed or may be involves in this doping fiasco too??


Basso's contract with Discovery contains a clause that he has to give DNA samples if requested in a national judicial or disciplinary investigation.

http://www.velonews.com/pr/prn/articles/11216.0.html

Sorry to sound cynical, but it sounds to me that Basso is buying himself more space for maneuvering in the investigation. Now his lawyer has a wider set of strategy to avoid having to submit DNA samples.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Pantani's coke habit was another thing that left me puzzled about the testing, especially combined with all the post mortem rider comments saying they should have done something. Comesso and Simoni both tested positive for coke and they seemed to be at best casual users (Simoni's hair tested negative) but Marco somehow never did?

I think it's naive to think Basso's improvements were the result of a new doping program at CSC. At the most he was able to keep it up while others cut back. Like every other pro rider he's probably been doping since his early amateur days (just like they do with steroids and HGH in US jr high schools).


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Everything I've heard or read from Italians about bike racing in Italy and Americans who have gone there to race is that the idea that anyone makes it to the pros and THEN starts doping is far-fetched at best.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*question*



Dwayne Barry said:


> Everything I've heard or read from Italians about bike racing in Italy and Americans who have gone there to race is that the idea that anyone makes it to the pros and THEN starts doping is far-fetched at best.


Dwayne this is an interesting point, do you think that doping is done to reap a training benefit which translates into a performnce improvement.

In other words, the doping is done at training which allows for efforts above a norm. The performance benefit is on race day...Or is this far fetched, In your opinion.........


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

ttug said:


> Dwayne this is an interesting point, do you think that doping is done to reap a training benefit which translates into a performnce improvement.
> 
> In other words, the doping is done at training which allows for efforts above a norm. The performance benefit is on race day...Or is this far fetched, In your opinion.........


Probably both. But I would speculate the biggest effect of doping is to enhance day-of performance because the drugs/techniques that have been shown to be most effective are the ones that accutely raise your body's oxygen-delivery capacity (EPO and blood-doping). IMO, training is only getting your body to realize it's talent. So even if you dope to tolerate a very high training load (e.g. hormone recovery products, mood-altering drugs (e.g. prozac)) wherever you end up will mainly be due to natural limits (primarily how much blood your heart can pump per stroke). EPO and blood boosting then jump you over that limit as long as their effect on red blood cell quantity lasts, not to mention other potential "day-of" drugs like corticosteroids to influence fuel substrate.

I think this is a bit different than anabolic steroids, weightlifting (and bodybuilding) and muscle mass where it probably is more of chronic (training) effect that is important rather than competition doping since you're relying on a large increase in muscle mass that takes years and years to acrue.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Fignon's Barber said:


> I disagree. Basso was dumped by ferretti at fassa bortolo because " he could not win". Suddenly, he goes to CSC, and becomes the mighty Grand Tour threat. This metamorphosis did not occur because the team ran commando routines in the woods before the season.


Hear, hear. 

It's happened more than once that Riis takes on a star rider, gives the impression that he is in very close contact, support, and supervision of their training and reconnaissance photo-ops -- ooops, reconnaissance rides. But when the news comes out that they were doping while riding for him, he just plays the "I don't really keep in close contact with them" card. It happened with Hamilton, and now with Basso. 

I am torn whenever I think of CSC. There are riders there that I really like, but I just can't stand the thought of Riis getting away with all this. Well, recently he had to move out of Italy, so I guess Mr. 60% did at least become inconvenienced by all this.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

den bakker said:


> Suddenly?
> 2002: nr 11 in TdF while on Fassa
> 2003: nr 7 in TdF while on Fassa
> 2004: nr 3 in TdF while on CSC
> ...



There's a big,big chasm between a 7th - 11th place tour rider and being a favorite. Just ask boogerd, leiphiemer, virenque,nardello,belli,peron, di grande,meier,van de wouwer,serrano,rous, et al. If you're asking, "who the hell is di grande?", I rest my case. ( For the record, all these guys finished between 7th and 11th in the tour from 1998-2002.)


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

His TdF numbers aren't as striking as his performance at the Giro last year...it was a Lance-like beatdown. Hmmmmmm...

If he's guilty then good riddance and if not then what a shame...unfortunately we likely won't have anything concrete for a while.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Fignon's Barber said:


> There's a big,big chasm between a 7th - 11th place tour rider and being a favorite. Just ask boogerd, leiphiemer, virenque,nardello,belli,peron, di grande,meier,van de wouwer,serrano,rous, et al. If you're asking, "who the hell is di grande?", I rest my case. ( For the record, all these guys finished between 7th and 11th in the tour from 1998-2002.)


I'm not following your point. Sure he has an 11th and 7th, but also a 2nd and 3rd. Unless you are saying performance under Fassa Bortolo only, at which point it hardly matters because they were never really concerned about GT wins. They had Mr. Sprinter and that was their concern.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Einstruzende said:


> I'm not following your point.



Point, as originally stated: before CSC- not capable of tour win. immediately upon joining CSC- tour threat.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Fignon's Barber said:


> Point, as originally stated: before CSC- not capable of tour win. immediately upon joining CSC- tour threat.


He was considered a podium threat before CSC...Postal wanted him pretty badly but lost to CSC.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Fignon's Barber said:


> There's a big,big chasm between a 7th - 11th place tour rider and being a favorite. Just ask boogerd, leiphiemer, virenque,nardello,belli,peron, di grande,meier,van de wouwer,serrano,rous, et al. If you're asking, "who the hell is di grande?", I rest my case. ( For the record, all these guys finished between 7th and 11th in the tour from 1998-2002.)


Whatever. 
I guess it is completely impossible for a young rider to improve from year to year. If you are not a tour favorite when you are 25, u\you have to have doped if you become a favorite later in your career.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

den bakker said:


> Whatever.
> I guess it is completely impossible for a young rider to improve from year to year. If you are not a tour favorite when you are 25, u\you have to have doped if you become a favorite later in your career.


I think Basso's improvement was just as would be expected from a GC hopeful who fulfulled his promise. Wasn't he the only guy remotely close to Armstrong the last couple of years of Armstrong's reign? Remember there are always lots of these guys that never pan out. 

What most likely happened last year at the Giro is Basso was Basso full stop but lots of other riders got scared off of their normal preparation. How else do you explain a proven relative nobody like Guttierez climbing with and even outclimbing the likes of Cunego and Simoni? It probably was not coincidence either that for the first time in years French riders (Casar and Gadret) were in the mix in the mountains.

Despite (or because of) the doping mess, the peloton last year and this is probably cleaner now than it has been in a really long time which makes the benefits of doping greater than normal.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I think Basso's improvement was just as would be expected from a GC hopeful who fulfulled his promise. Wasn't he the only guy remotely close to Armstrong the last couple of years of Armstrong's reign? Remember there are always lots of these guys that never pan out.
> 
> What most likely happened last year at the Giro is Basso was Basso full stop but lots of other riders got scared off of their normal preparation. How else do you explain a proven relative nobody like Guttierez climbing with and even outclimbing the likes of Cunego and Simoni? It probably was not coincidence either that for the first time in years French riders (Casar and Gadret) were in the mix in the mountains.
> 
> Despite (or because of) the doping mess, the peloton last year and this is probably cleaner now than it has been in a really long time which makes the benefits of doping greater than normal.


My response was to be read with some sarcasm. I agree he was improving "as hoped" from year to year. I should of course have used the mandatory emoticons  
And no way I will try and explain Guttierez....


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

terzo rene said:


> Pantani's coke habit was another thing that left me puzzled about the testing, especially combined with all the post mortem rider comments saying they should have done something. Comesso and Simoni both tested positive for coke and they seemed to be at best casual users (Simoni's hair tested negative) but Marco somehow never did?
> 
> I think it's naive to think Basso's improvements were the result of a new doping program at CSC. At the most he was able to keep it up while others cut back. Like every other pro rider he's probably been doping since his early amateur days (just like they do with steroids and HGH in US jr high schools).


Terzo Rene, I recently bought a book "The Death of Marco Pantani: A Biography" by Matt Rendell, that is a very critical examination of Pantani, including his cocaine habits. If you are interested in the topic, I highly recommend it. The beginning part is a bit mushy, but once things get rolling it's very enjoyable.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Maybe I'm over-reading this, but in Cyclingnews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may02news

it is said that 

_Gerolsteiner manager Hans-Michael Holczer supported Stapleton's suggestion. He also noted that a "further option" would be for the International Professional Cycling Teams (IPCT) to sue each individual rider, "because a DNA sample can only be made following a court order."_

Since now there is no court order telling Basso to give his DNA sample, he is not under *legal* obligation to do so. The best that CONI can do then is to revoke his license, if they can muster enough will to do so. 

But slick as his lawyers and promoters are, I'm sure that he'll find a more forgiving country to accept him. I think that Basso realizes that his contract with Disco dictates that he give DNA sample when asked by CONI, even if there is no court order. So he made a smart choice by asking to leave.

Personally, what I think is the worst case scenario is for CONI and the UCI to decide that it's not financially feasible to pursue these cases in court, since the Hamilton and Landis cases have already put a big dent into their legal costs. Of course, this is the very same complain that Landis himself has said many times.

What a screwed up world.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

orange_julius said:
 

> The best that CONI can do then is to revoke his license, if they can muster enough will to do so.


I don't believe that is accurate. A rider can be suspended for doping without failing a dope test. If CONI believes based on whatever evidence they have that Basso doped, they can suspend him.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I don't believe that is accurate. A rider can be suspended for doping without failing a dope test. If CONI believes based on whatever evidence they have that Basso doped, they can suspend him.


Dwayne, suspension is a lesser punishment than revocation of a racing license.
So I think we are in agreement here.


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