# cleat/saddle relationship



## Qstick333 (Jul 21, 2004)

After reading much of Steve Hogg's writings, I am considering moving my cleat position backwards a bit. What is the effect on the saddle height and fore/aft from this change. I suspect (but have not measured yet) that it will be in the 6-8mm range....

I am assuming the saddle height must be lowered due to the cleats moving back to achieve the same extension..but what about fore/aft? Is there a guideline for either change e.g. 4 mm backwards on the cleats = 4mm less saddle height?

Anybody else make a change and were you happy?

Thanks,

Zach


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## funktekk (Jul 29, 2006)

I didn't read Steve Hogg's writtings but the other day I was trying to figure out why I felt so much smoother pedaling a friends cruiser with platforms than my pro fitted road bike. 

I realized that I actually had the platform pedals such that the ball of my foot was still on the pedal but just in front of the spindle. 

I have speedplay Zeros and sidi shoes. I adjusted the mounting plate as far back as possible but it felt like I still needed to move back more. I finally flipped the mounting plate around such that there is one bolt on the heel side and two on the toe side. The bolt in the heel side took some force to get it to reach through the plate. I probably should have used a longer bolt and a spacer but I had neither at the time. 

Anyhow the change feels great. I have never liked a full leg extension so the change didn't effect my saddle height at all.


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## Qstick333 (Jul 21, 2004)

I appreciate the response. The way that I envision it happening (but need confirmation - hence the post) - is that you actually increased your leg extension by moving the cleat backwards...but I am not a great visualizer and need a bit of clarification.....

Zach


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

> _I am assuming the saddle height must be lowered due to the cleats moving back to achieve the same extension..but what about fore/aft? Is there a guideline for either change e.g. 4 mm backwards on the cleats = 4mm less saddle height?_


Your assumption about lowering saddle height is correct. I know of no guidelines for lowering your saddle other than the vague "lower a few millimeter, then ride and adjust by feel." What's been confusing some people is Steve Hogg's recommendation to lower your saddle by 30-50mm (a huge amount) after you change to _arch cleats_, but that's a very different thing than just moving your cleats back on your standard cycling shoes.

The fore/aft saddle change you should make is not based on cleat movement, but on the fact that your saddle will also move forward when you move it down. You merely move the saddle back to where it was in relation to the bottom bracket, restoring your original knee position over the spindle. A rough guide is to move the saddle 3mm aft for every 10mm you lower it.


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## jjjdc1 (Oct 3, 2006)

*Cleats fore aft*



funktekk said:


> I didn't read Steve Hogg's writtings but the other day I was trying to figure out why I felt so much smoother pedaling a friends cruiser with platforms than my pro fitted road bike.
> 
> I realized that I actually had the platform pedals such that the ball of my foot was still on the pedal but just in front of the spindle.
> 
> ...


Speed play makes a fore aft extender plate that you can replace the original cleat plate with. I just bought it and moved my cleats back, it seems to be really effective so far. If you look on speedplay web site you can find it in the tech section.


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## Qstick333 (Jul 21, 2004)

wim said:


> The fore/aft saddle change you should make is not based on cleat movement, but on the fact that your saddle will also move forward when you move it down. You merely move the saddle back to where it was in relation to the bottom bracket, restoring your original knee position over the spindle. A rough guide is to move the saddle 3mm aft for every 10mm you lower it.


I appreciate the help and explanation. I have read about the arch cleat position - but I am referring to Steve's advice of about 11 behind the ball of my foot based on shoe size....

Part of what is confusing is the saddle fore aft - if after lowering the saddle a bit I restore the previous saddle/BB relationship - won't that be wrong due to the new cleat position? Perhaps I am placing too much importance on how cleat position effects the knee position??? I feel like an adjustment must be made, but not sure what......

I hope that made sense..

Zach


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## Dinosaur (Jan 29, 2004)

I've read Steve Hogg's articles about cleat position. I moved my cleats as far back as they would go and I did not have to make a change to my saddle height. I don't think it effects it that much. It did effect the power on my stroke, so I moved them forward a little. One thing to keep in mind is your body gets used to a certain setting and if you change it, it might not like it. 

Fred Matheny at roadbikerider.com, said there is no correlation between KOPS and saddle position, your knee stays in the same place, regardless of where the cleats are set. But from messing around with my cleats and saddle positon, I found there is a correlation (I started to have knee problems). My only advice is that if you don't have any big problems, I would not mess with anything. Moving my cleats back did solve my problem with hot foot, but I had to change footbeds also.

If you change anything, do it in very small increments, not all at once.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Qstick333 said:


> Part of what is confusing is the saddle fore aft - if after lowering the saddle a bit I restore the previous saddle/BB relationship - won't that be wrong due to the new cleat position? Perhaps I am placing too much importance on how cleat position effects the knee position??? I feel like an adjustment must be made, but not sure what......
> 
> I hope that made sense..
> 
> Zach


I understand what you're saying, and agree with you that a new cleat position could move the knee slightly fore or aft even after you restore your former saddle setback. But IMO, the amount of such a knee movement is so small as to get lost in the noise of shifting your butt around on the saddle and/or lowering and raising your heel as you pedal. If you are concerned about re-establishing your exact knee position over the pedal spindle, you could do the plum bob-from-the-knee routine before and again after you lower the saddle.

Given time to adapt, the human body will function amazingly well within some fairly large ranges. Acceptable tolerances are much larger than, say, in an automobile engine—where a millimeter too short here or too long there could well result in instant destruction a few seconds after you crank it up. A bike rider's engine is much more resilient than that


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*I did it and for me it works*

I read Steve's posts on www.cyclingnews.com also.

Here is what I did.

I moved my Shimano SPD-SL cleats 100% back, towards the heel (I wear size 45 Shimano R151 shoes). For me this was moving cleats back ~5-6mm from where they were originally. I had to lower my saddle by the same amount 5-6mm else my calves and hams were stressed.

To the poster who said he kept the saddle height the same after having moved the cleats back but he feels he lost some power, I would suggest to try to lower the saddle also. Steve says some people (a minority) need to raise their saddle because their pedalling style changes with cleats further back. Most people needs to lower their saddles to compensate.

I find it impossible (for a lay person like me) to apply Steve very precise "11mm centre of ball of foot in front of pedal spindle for size 45 shoe" so I simply moved them as far back as possible and been riding like this for ~18 months now. I think if your cleats are 5mm too far back is not going to harm you provided you adjust your saddle height correctly. Which is why mid-foot arch cleat seems to work for some people. When I move my cleats forward even by 2-3mm my achilles gets stressed and sore.


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## Qstick333 (Jul 21, 2004)

Thanks for the response, I appreciate it - did you have to make any fore/aft adjustments as well?

Here is my plan for locating the cleats ...


I am currently using SPD MTB cleats to facilitate walking etc... I found the midpoint of the cleat (which happens to be where the bolts run through). After marking with a Sharpie the center of the ball of my foot, I made another mark 13mm back and lined this mark up with the center of my cleat. Pretty sure I got it right, but I haven't tried it yet due to not wanting to screw with my saddle at this moment....I'm hoping to fool with it this weekend.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*in my case NO saddle fore/aft changes*



Qstick333 said:


> Thanks for the response, I appreciate it - did you have to make any fore/aft adjustments as well?
> 
> Here is my plan for locating the cleats ...
> 
> ...


moving the cleats further back (5-10mm) does not affect the saddle fore/aft position, only the saddle height needs to be adjusted (most likely). 

I dont know what happens with mid-foot arch cleats but with regular cleats no changes to fore/aft, most likely just lower the saddle by about same amount and you move your cleats back.


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