# Doping in track and field



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

From today's NYT. 

http://nyti.ms/15f6yOs


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## Nubster (Jul 8, 2009)

No surprise there. Any sport that requires speed, power, and endurance will be full of dopers. That pretty much means all sports. Hell, there's been doping in table tennis.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Not too surprising to read those numbers and you can bet your bottom dollar that the percentage is higher than what is being reported. 

Another good point and as long as this is the attitude, there will always be many authorities that look the other way until their athlete gets caught:




> In May, Dick Pound, a former WADA chairman, presented a report, ordered by the agency, on the current state of drug testing. In part, he and his team concluded, “There is no general appetite to undertake the effort and expense of a successful effort to deliver doping-free sport.”
> 
> Pound said in a telephone interview Thursday: “There’s this psychological aspect about it: nobody wants to catch anybody. There’s no incentive. Countries are embarrassed if their nationals are caught. And sports are embarrassed if someone from their sport is caught.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I can't believe Lance's evil grip extended to track and field. Good thing we busted him and everyone is clean now.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I can't believe Lance's evil grip extended to track and field. Good thing we busted him and everyone is clean now.


Lance is like the eye of Sauron atop Mount Doom, he oversees all the evil... 

One ring to rule them all, 
One ring to find them, 
One ring to bring them all, 
And in the darkness... force them to dope 

Wait did I get that right?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

EPO is *THE PRECIOUS!!*


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I can't believe Lance's evil grip extended to track and field. Good thing we busted him and everyone is clean now.


What point are you trying to make?

For the 48,371st time?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> What point are you trying to make?
> 
> For the 48,371st time?


That mentioning Lance increases blood pressure in MAMILs, generally.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Fireform said:


> What point are you trying to make?
> 
> For the 48,371st time?


he is just going at his own pace. no need to question that. He will catch up.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Wait, is 60 when you go from being a MAMIL to an EMIL?

Just asking for, uh, you know, "a friend". :wink:


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

The real story is that WADA is squashing the publication of the study. Suddenly, they have become experts in social science research methods and are discrediting the researchers' data.

I'm going to bet WADA knew the methods to be used beforehand.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Does anyone really think that countries like Jamaica, Kenya, and Ethiopia actually want to test their athletes? 

I can see an official from their doping federations showing up at the door of one of their top runners, handing him or her a piss cup, and telling them, "I'll be back tomorrow to pick it up". :lol:


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Meh. All doping stopped in 2006.


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## bbrrxx (Jul 17, 2013)

Lol @ the comments... yeah MJ must have been clean?!? He's held the 400m record for 15 yrs in a sport running rampant with drug cheats.. seems legit.

He'd still hold the 200m record too.. if it wasn't for the Bolt & Blake's team-wide doping program.



> *Because I so loved this sport in its pure form* and it is so corrupted now, it is really a tragedy, not only for me but for the many hard core fans. The thrill of seeing a Sebastian Coe break the world record in the 800 m, Reynaldo Nehemiah run the 110 high hurdles, or *seeing Michael Johnson explosive finish off the last turn of the 400 m* are all treasured memories. But the cheats have ruined it for me and for all the non-cheaters,


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

jorgy said:


> The real story is that WADA is squashing the publication of the study. Suddenly, they have become experts in social science research methods and are discrediting the researchers' data.
> 
> I'm going to bet WADA knew the methods to be used beforehand.


Not exactly. 

WADA approved the publication of the study 8 months ago but, despite searching for 3 months, they could not find a publisher. WADA suggested they bundle the study with another study. The researchers felt slighted and went on their own. 

If it is Pound's study they were going to combine it with this might have been a good thing. His position was that many of the Feds have no desire to pursue anti-doping. The combined studies would send a pretty powerful message.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> WADA approved the publication of the study 8 months ago but, despite searching for 3 months, they could not find a publisher. WADA suggested they bundle the study with another study. The researchers felt slighted and went on their own.


Have you ever tried to get anything published in the scientific, peer-reviewed literature. 3 months is nothing. Nothing. It is normal for peer review at a single journal to take months AND to have to submit the paper to multiple journals. Absolutely normal. And a rejection by Science means nothing to the quality of the study.

The 'bundling' you reference was described in the NY Times article as WADA wanting to collect more data. 'Bundling' suggests the data were already collected. Saying 'more data, more data' is akin to a major professor saying 'you need to do another experiment' and not letting his/her student graduate despite the student completing the proposed dissertation study.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

jorgy said:


> Have you ever tried to get anything published in the scientific, peer-reviewed literature. 3 months is nothing. Nothing. It is normal for peer review at a single journal to take months AND to have to submit the paper to multiple journals. Absolutely normal. And a rejection by Science means nothing to the quality of the study.
> 
> The 'bundling' you reference was described in the NY Times article as WADA wanting to collect more data. 'Bundling' suggests the data were already collected. Saying 'more data, more data' is akin to a major professor saying 'you need to do another experiment' and not letting his/her student graduate despite the student completing the proposed dissertation study.


I am sorry to hear about your failures with submitting to journals. Rejection is quite common, don't take it personally. 

*WADA gave them approval* to submit it and make it public. When they failed WADA suggested alternative ways to make it public. Pretty simple

You are trying to find a boogyman where there is not one. The story here is the massive number who admit to doping, not WADA giving approval and the researchers failing to find a place to publish.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I am sorry to hear about your failures with submitting to journals. Rejection is quite common, don't take it personally.


Is anyone shocked by these personal attacks?


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> Is anyone shocked by these personal attacks?


The ignore button is your friend.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> Is anyone shocked by these personal attacks?


It just makes me laugh because his insult proves he's never been a lead or senior author on a paper that went to a journal with a decent impact factor.

He's on my ignore list, so I don't know why I bothered to read or respond to his post anyway.


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## CBus660R (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm just gonna put my standard reply in:
"Track and Field and Cycling are the dirtiest sports because they look the hardest to find the cheats. If the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, Champions League, etc... looked as hard, they'd be just as dirty".


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

CBus660R said:


> I'm just gonna put my standard reply in:
> "Track and Field and Cycling are the dirtiest sports because they look the hardest to find the cheats. If the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, Champions League, etc... looked as hard, they'd be just as dirty".


I suspect they are really among the cleaner sports for that reason. As weak and gappy as the testing is, it's at least reasonably consistent. Just eyeballs show more professional/league focused sports are rife with full-on doping. Even if the percentage of cheats isn't any different, the percentages of drugs in the bloodstream are vastly different. 

Maybe it's best to acknowledge that's what controls really are - not zero tolerance; rather "here, but no further." Zero tolerance simply isn't practical, short of sequestering athletes for the duration of their careers.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

The great untapped sport as far as doping goes has to be soccer. I know it's overwhelmingly skill/coordination that determines success but nonetheless strength/power and probably more so endurance plays a large role too. My understanding is the dope testing is very lax. When there are millions and millions of dollars on the line for individual contracts, and for teams in competitions I can't believe doping isn't widespread. Without rigorous testing we know you can dope with EPO pretty much at will.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

jorgy said:


> I don't know why I bothered to read or respond to his post anyway.


It is pretty clear that you responded because you wanted to spin this as being about WADA trying to hide the results of the study. That isn't that case. WADA approved it's release and publication. After months of no success they suggest alternative ways to get the information out there. The researchers felt slighted, got huffy.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Dwayne Barry said:


> The great untapped sport as far as doping goes has to be soccer. I know it's overwhelmingly skill/coordination that determines success but nonetheless strength/power and probably more so endurance plays a large role too. My understanding is the dope testing is very lax. When there are millions and millions of dollars on the line for individual contracts, and for teams in competitions I can't believe doping isn't widespread. Without rigorous testing we know you can dope with EPO pretty much at will.


Very true. 

Currently reading "The Sports Gene"..... Great book. One of the studies it talks about is one on soccer players. They found that the majority of Professional soccer players have a mix of 50/50 fast/slow twitch muscles. This was thought to be odd as most coaches want speed, speed, speed. 

They found that soccer players with higher % of fast twitch got injured more often and could not survive the rigors of the modern game. What better way then doping to improve recovery and endurance? Soccer could be one of the sports that gets a huge amount of benefit from doping

The testing is changing fast in the sport though, a lot more tests and positives. Media does not seem to care though


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

elite athletes seeking 'edge' through PEDs
tens shocked


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> elite athletes seeking 'edge' through PEDs
> tens shocked


Exactly


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

bbrrxx said:


> Lol @ the comments... yeah MJ must have been clean?!? He's held the 400m record for 15 yrs in a sport running rampant with drug cheats.. seems legit.
> 
> He'd still hold the 200m record too.. if it wasn't for the Bolt & Blake's team-wide doping program.


Not to mention, he broke a record that was set at altitude at pretty much sea level.

Bolt, on the other hand, isn't just breaking records---he's shattering records that usually are broken by a hundredth of a second or two, by tenths of a second. The only other guy who lowered the 100m record by a full tenth, since they went to electronic timing in hudredths, at least temporarily until the tests came back, was the Winstrol Kid. Ben Johnson.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Is anyone shocked by these personal attacks?


No. Just inside the rules, trying to bait people and get them banned.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> No. Just inside the rules, trying to bait people and get them banned.


And yet, and yet....

Spade, you too have an ignore button. Falsetti was a bit snitty but I wouldn't call it baiting. Three options folks have, come prepared with a good argument and prove your point that way, grow a thicker skin or choose ignore. Blaming a ban on someone else is a cop-out.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

sir duke said:


> And yet, and yet....
> 
> Spade, you too have an ignore button. Falsetti was a bit snitty but I wouldn't call it baiting. Three options folks have, come prepared with a good argument and prove your point that way, grow a thicker skin or choose ignore. Blaming a ban on someone else is a cop-out.


You'll change your tune if you're ever on his list.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*moderators note*

Enough already. Stick to the topic.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I lurk here from time to time, and IMO Falsetti is the only person here who produces consistently substantive posts.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks Foto

Back on topic. One of the points that Pound's report raised was the lack of commitment of some of the national Fed. What better example then the Jamaican Fed? 

An inside look at Jamaican track's drug-testing woes - More Sports - SI.com

1 OOC test in the 5 months prior to the Olympics? Really?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

What they should do is hire private investigators. One picture of drugs exchanging hands and all the excuses in the world aren't going to amount to crap. I'm surprised journalists aren't doing this already considering how willing the paparazzi is to intrude on people's lives.

Ok so maybe that's a bad idea, but one would have to think that a private investigator would have figured out motoman pretty quickly.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> The great untapped sport as far as doping goes has to be soccer. I know it's overwhelmingly skill/coordination that determines success but nonetheless strength/power and probably more so endurance plays a large role too. My understanding is the dope testing is very lax. When there are millions and millions of dollars on the line for individual contracts, and for teams in competitions I can't believe doping isn't widespread. Without rigorous testing we know you can dope with EPO pretty much at will.


Football's big problem right now is match fixing. There have been major scandals in Italy, Turkey, Germany, Russia and a host of S.E. Asian countries. The Italians have been trying to extradite the Asian 'Mr Big', Dan Tan from Singapore for a couple of years but the Singapore govt isn't interested. Since match-fixing in football doesn't depend on whether or not a player takes PEDs, I doubt that either the administrators or the players or club owners are going to lose much sleep over doping allegations in the sport. Along with illegal payoffs to agents and managers there's already plenty of dirt in the sport, thankyouverymuch. (Don't even get me started on the bidding for the 2022 World Cup, won by that fanatical footballing nation, Qatar.)


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