# Dear Grant Peterson: now I get it.



## Lotophage (Feb 19, 2011)

I could never understand Rivendell's obsession with bikes with baskets, with that goofy looking sit up and beg cockpit position, with upright bars, kickstands, etc.

I've tried building townies before, but they've always failed. I always ended up with a bike I was afraid of leaving out in the rain or locking up in front of a store, etc. I always left the kickstand off, geared it too high, set the bars too low. So I'd ride them for a season, strip them down, sell the parts and try again. And I'd assume that anyone who liked bikes like that was just deluding themselves.

About a month ago I bought an old schwinn suburban, fit it with a basket, new tires, etc. Figured I'd give a townie one more chance, and this time I'd keep myself from messing with it. No ironic dura-ace rear derailleur, no fancy brakes.

I was immediately struck by how comfortable it was. Far more than it had any right to be. And smooth. I started using it to ride to the store for milk. Toss the shopping in the basket and ride home, easy. Leave the car at home for a change. Started taking it for slightly longer rides. 

Then today, I needed to go to the grocery and the hardware store. It was cold when I left and I needed a jacket. Hopped on the suburban in my jeans and boots, no need to change. rode down the hill through the neighborhood to the park and then through the conservancy park on a rough dirt trail. Starting to get what Riv was on about. Riding the suburban on the dirt trail was a blast. I was having more fun then I'd had in quite a while riding. went to the grocery, picked up a loaf of bread, tossed it in the basket. Then to the hardware store. Picked up 5 pounds of grout and some tools, some paint, some caulk. Tossed them in the basket. By now I was pretty warm. Took off my jacket, tossed it in my enormous saddle bag. Rode home. back through the conservancy, up the hill. Only 5 gears, but quite a range, so never even broke a sweat. Rode... not fast, not slow, just took my time. 

So Grant, I get it now. I get the basket, the upright position, I get the kickstand. You were right- it's a great way to set up a bike. It's not the only way, but there's something awesome about having a bike that doesn't require special clothes or shoes. It's great to have a bike you can just take to the store, no messing with panniers or backpacks or messenger bags, everything you need is already on the bike ready to go. 

Thanks.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

Yup, they have their place. I love my Bianchi Milano. Sort of a "sport stodgy" bike.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

That can explain N+1 . One for every purpose and a purpose for every one.


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## blakcloud (Apr 13, 2006)

Lotophage, I like your insight into this style of bike. 

There is an article in the latest issue of Bicycle Times on a woman who built up a Velo Orange Polyvalent as a all-rounder bike. It is a good read for those who are interested. 

I am not sure I am there yet but I wouldn't mind trying one some day.


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## nonsleepingjon (Oct 18, 2002)

My neighbor was throwing away a low end townie type bike. I snagged it, gave it the bare minimum of TLC, and have been using it ever since when I want to bike with my dog running beside me. Very stable, comfortable, wide handlebars, easy to ride one handed, low top tube for easy dismounts (which can be important when biking with a dog) - all around it's even better than my mountain bike for this activity. 

There's a reason there are so many styles of bikes out there.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Not to turn this into another Rivendell hating thread, but Grant Peterson can be so annoying and self-assured that it almost makes me want to dismiss everything he says (and I do agree with much of his philosophy).

Consider the new Riv-Soma San Marcos. Here is what Grant has to say about it in the description: 

"The San Marco is a sporty road bike, a frisky bike suitable for anyroad riding on the planet----fitness rides, club rides, centuries, brevets, riding over to Lucy-Jo's house, anything you can do on a bike on a road, you can do on this bike. 

I/Grant had total freedom with the geometry, and nothing got compromised along the way. ...The frame will come in five sizes:

47 - 51 (both for 650B wheels) end of September 2011
54 - 59 - 63cm (700c) mid July 2011

... The actual geometry........well, I don't have time to put it up, and I'm not super-inclined to, anyway. There's nothing magic or dumb about it. It reflects all of my 'pinions about frame design, with no cave-ins to anybody, and it designed just the way I'd've done it for us. I like long chainstays, high head tubes, lowish bottom brackets, good clearance, shallow seat tube angles, moderate head tubes and trail. We've built and ridden the bikes here, and they ride as well as any bike I've designed."

So, let me get this straight. Nothing was compromised in the frame's design, yet it only comes in 5 sizes. And, BTW, we won't post any geometry specs because you don't need that information. Just trust me (Grant), it will fit if you just follow my confusing sizing guidelines.

What is a shame about this is that the new San Marcos looks like a great bike, in theory. But why would they only offer it in 5 sizes if they are so uncompromising, and then refuse to provide the specs? He's a goofball, and an egostical one at that.

SOMA San Marcos


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## Lotophage (Feb 19, 2011)

Much as I hate to admit it though, he's probably right about the san marcos.

it probably rides just like he says and when it comes right down to it, the numbers really don't matter all that much. 

I agree, peterson comes off like an annoying know it all most of the time. But like Lisa Simpson, he tends to be right most of the time, too. which is frustrating.

The part I have a harder time justifying is the prices. My schwinn cost me, with all the parts it took to make it rideable again, about 150 bucks. 

It's a bit of a stretch to say that it makes sense to spend 20 times that on just a frame for a city bike from riv.


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## Dale Brigham (Aug 23, 2002)

*Soma San Marcos frame geometry link*



tarwheel2 said:


> "... The actual geometry........well, I don't have time to put it up, and I'm not super-inclined to, anyway. There's nothing magic or dumb about it. It reflects all of my 'pinions about frame design, with no cave-ins to anybody, and it designed just the way I'd've done it for us. I like long chainstays, high head tubes, lowish bottom brackets, good clearance, shallow seat tube angles, moderate head tubes and trail. We've built and ridden the bikes here, and they ride as well as any bike I've designed."


I found the San Marcos frame geometry over on the Soma Fabrications site: San Marcos Frame Set | SOMA Fabrications

Click on the "Geometry" tag above the frame description.

Dale


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## PomPilot (May 17, 2006)

Lotophage said:


> I could never understand Rivendell's obsession with bikes with baskets, with that goofy looking sit up and beg cockpit position, with upright bars, kickstands, etc.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Verily, I say that thou hast sampled the Kool-Aid. Welcome to the fold of Schwinn Suburban owners.

You should consider making a coat guard, to add that old world touch to your ride. The one I made for my Suburban started off as plastic canvas for needlepoint. After trimming, and painting, the panels were attached with zip ties.

FWIW, I've had this Suburban since it was new. Forty-one years to be precise.


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## Lotophage (Feb 19, 2011)

Pom- how do you like that ring lock? I've been thinking about getting one of those... they work OK or do you end up needing to use a cable lock with it anyway?


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## PomPilot (May 17, 2006)

Like it well enough. Mine accommodates a plug-in chain from the same maker (Axa). Carry the chain in the front basket or grocery panniers in the back. Most places I go, just the lock itself is good enough for a few minutes. It is still more secure than most of the bikes parked around town. If I go out of town, the Axa chain, a cable and padlock or U-lock travel with me. Let the thieves take the unlocked bike next to mine.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

PomPilot said:


> Verily, I say that thou hast sampled the Kool-Aid. Welcome to the fold of Schwinn Suburban owners.
> 
> You should consider making a coat guard, to add that old world touch to your ride. The one I made for my Suburban started off as plastic canvas for needlepoint. After trimming, and painting, the panels were attached with zip ties.
> 
> FWIW, I've had this Suburban since it was new. Forty-one years to be precise.


I really disliked ashtabula cranks.


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## Lotophage (Feb 19, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> I really disliked ashtabula cranks.


meh- they seem to work just fine. THey aren't sexy, but that's kinda the point with a bike like this.


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## dfltroll (Nov 27, 2006)

*Riv revelations*

What was really a Riv inspired revelation for me was setting up my road bike in a Riv manner--bigger tires, saddle and bars same height, saddle bag, etc...

I love my A.Homer Hilsen. It's a great bike that I've used for multiple brevet series, touring, overnight camping trips, exploring dirt/roads and regular old "road riding". I also have a Rivendell Quickbeam that I may part with at some point in the future but I'm unsure. I think about selling it and then I take it for a ride and I think "No way am I getting ride of tis bike, it's great."


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

Beautiful bikes, and I love the A.H.H


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Yep.*

I got an old Suburban -- lost all the pics I had up here in the server swap -- as my 'round-towner at my old place. I sold it when I moved and had no good place to store it. Bought it for $75, used 15 months, sold it for $75.

Moved into the city again, got a Collegiate, have been riding for 18 months, easy as you like.

It's really a bad idea, and I should get a newer bike -- dang 26 1 3/8 steel rims don't brake for spit, and 40-odd pounds is really hard to get up the hill. It is only 300 feet up but I mean it is UP, for a 5-speed! Would cost more than I paid for the bike to find some alloy rims and decent brakes.

I have been thinking about getting a (Disclaimer, I work at) Raleigh Detour City Sport, but, I want it to look like a Dutch Workcycles Opafiets, or, at least, a Classic Roadster.


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

tarwheel2 said:


> He's a goofball, and an egostical one at that.


Very fine line between a Grant Peterson and, for example, a Steve Jobs methinks.


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## lgh (Feb 21, 2006)

I think everyone interested in bikes should get a beater and set it up ala Grant Peterson. I took a beater Raleigh I picked up for 60 and made it functional for an additional 8 plus stuff out of the parts bins. Like others, I ended up really liking this kind of build and spiffed it a bit. It has Midge bars set up well above the saddle height. I use all the hand positions. SS was OK but multispeed is better for loads, getting out of city jams, or exercise jaunts. Therefore, downtube friction shifters and a 5, 6, or x speed. Basket in back although I would prefer a deep one rigged in the front. It has a funky kind of cheap ugly coolness to it than I am digging. Building another one similar out of an old Centurion frame, hand painted (sprayed) in International Harvestor Farm and Implement paint, OEM white. 

Larry


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## schwinnrider32 (Aug 22, 2004)

I had suffered with hand numbness for a while, which was causing me to ride less often. I was about to start looking at recumbents when I stumbled across the Riv website. Rivendells were out of my price range, but I used his fit information to build a Gunnar, and I'm comfortable. I also have a Bridgestone XO-2, which was designed by Grant. I swapped the Dirt Drops for a Noodle, and now it sports fenders, front and rear racks, and a medium Wald basket ziptied up front. I ride that bike more than any other. 

Grant's pretty smart. Kinda cheesy sometimes, and a bit too retrogrouch, but his products are stylish and durable.


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

Possibly a fine line in appearance. 
A broad chasm in effect. 

Bring something to the market that didn't exist and create a market through technological innovation [for profit, creativity, market domination and ????'s sake] vs. bold statements against technology, innovation and new products to build a desire [market, profit & utilization] for things that are already proven and available. 

My $0.02 says that appearances do matter, but anal-o-gies across industries are usually poor excuses for a true explanation of the situation. Steve Jobs is to electronics what Grant Peterson is to.... nothing. I'm not some sort Steve Jobs worshiper. I own 1 Apple (Jobs) product (ipad) and no rivendell products (although I own a metallic road bike which fits 28mm tires and another metallic bike with drop bars which fits up to 42s). But according to Rivendell I should never ride the current tires on my road bike because I don't race and I'm too heavy. 

I still like my 23s for their designed application. But I do agree (with Mr. Peterson) that too many people think they are benefiting from the latest "pro" technology.


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## esXso (Jan 29, 2010)

I think high handlebars work if the top tube and wheelbase is shorter. Also you need a J-shaped fork with generous offset bend so your toes don't hit the wheel. I do like the Riv and VO aesthetic


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

I own two Grant Peterson designed bikes a Sam Hillborne and a Soma San Marcos. I have three bikes that are not designed by him.

I like the bikes and I do agree that he can become annoying however, I think sometime it is almost unavoidable and may in a sense be a good thing. 

I get annoyed by racer wanna-bes who dismiss anything that isn't latest or greatest. I see this a lot these guys on forums making statements like: "You can't race with anything less than DI2 stuff! You'll be at a huge disadvantage; at the very least you need Ultegra. Your bike has to weigh less than 17 lbs or you're dead meat. A set of wheels that weighs more than 1500 grams means you lose"

There is a real apparent lack of riding for enjoyment in that type attitude. Riding is always about winning. It isn't about some "edge." I am not a retro-grouch because I can't afford new equipment. I can buy what I want. I ride for the pleasure of it, especially since I messed up both a knee and ankle several years ago and cannot do the triathlon thing anymore. 

I meet these riders on various charity rides that sneer, sometimes less than politely at my bikes. It never seems to dawn on them that I am keeping up with them though 30 years older than they and on a bike that weights at least 5 to 10 pounds more than theirs and that only has an 8 speed rear end.

There is a place and it should be a big place for utility bikes. I have a Mongoose setup that way with bags, racks and lights. It weighs 42 pounds with all the kit installed but is a joy to ride back and forth to the store, comfortable, stable and well mannered. 

I also have a Sam Hillborne I tour and Commute on. It is my true retro-bike with Suntour XC-Pro components (except the hubs and cassette) It also has racks and fenders but is a better bike the Mongoose but I will not lock it outside so the mongoose gets shopping duty

In addition a Soma San Marco setup as a fast commuter (no bags/racks/lights/fenders) to ride for fun with Campagnolo Flatbar components and Vento Reaction CX wheels. It is a great relaxed - less slow bike for a middle-aged guy. 

I have a Battaglin Triathlon bike from the early 1990's setup with Suntour Superbe components and tubular tires 

I have Vitus Stag road bike (See the review on these forums) that is sort a cheaper version of the San Marcos.


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

Timely thread dredge. I just ordered some Jack Brown tires from Riv this week. That whole fat tire aesthetic seems to be growing on me -- the 28s I've got on now seem skinny. Looking forward to seeing how the new tires work.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

There isn't anything wrong with Grant Peterson's bicycle theology, it's just another way. And if you don't agree with it, so what? It's simply not for you. His way does appeal to a lot of people, and as the baby boomer generation gets older his way will appeal to more and more people. I really like his philosophy that a bike should be simple and easy to work on, I couldn't agree more with that (I also think the same thing about cars), but I can't agree that his style of bikes is the only style, their just another style. His prices seem a bit high to me considering the likes of Shamrock and Mercian are a bit less expensive, but he does live in the Bay area and has to pay for the high cost of living there.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Petersen, please (not Peterson). Drives Grant crazy to have his name misspelled.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

wim said:


> Petersen, please (not Peterson). Drives Grant crazy to have his name misspelled.


Those Norwegians and Swedes. Not a dime's worth of difference between them, but they just can't quite get along ;-)


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

wim said:


> Petersen, please (not Peterson). Drives Grant crazy to have his name misspelled.


Grant doesn't come here so I doubt if he's going crazy.


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

wim said:


> Petersen, please (not Peterson). Drives Grant crazy to have his name misspelled.



Growl. I know the way it is spelt. I just didn't look


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

What I don't get, is why it took you so long to grasp the concept of a townie bike.

Everybody should have one, I am on mine commuting through the city everyday, it got ridden more than any other road bike I have.

You didn't need Peterson for that, the concept has been there for more than a century


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Fai Mao said:


> Growl. I know the way it is spelt. I just didn't look


Spelt? And your worried about how Petersen is spelled? Spelt is wheat, but it's slang for bad spelling of the word spelled.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> Spelt? And your worried about how Petersen is spelled? Spelt is wheat, but it's slang for bad spelling of the word spelled.


Spelt is proper British usage...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> Spelt is proper British usage...


 No it's not, in British it means wheat flour or known simply as Spelt flour in grocery stores. And even if it did mean that, he isn't British.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> No it's not, in British it means wheat flour or known simply as Spelt flour in grocery stores. And even if it did mean that, he isn't British.


[SUP]2[/SUP]spelt \ˈspelt\
Definition of _SPELT_ _chiefly British past and past participle of_ spell
Spelt - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

___________________________________________________________________________
spelt[SUP]1 [/SUP] [spelt] Show IPA 
verb a simple past tense and past participle of spell[SUP]1 [/SUP]. 

Spelt | Define Spelt at Dictionary.com


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> [SUP]2[/SUP]spelt \ˈspelt\
> Definition of _SPELT_ _chiefly British past and past participle of_ spell
> Spelt - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> ...


Perhaps, but again we are in America and the word spelt is not used at all, the American usage is spelled. It's like learned vs learnt, anyone using the word learnt in America is considered illiterate and so it is with spelt. And spelled is the preferred form throughout the English speaking world today.


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

Meanwhile we have a blatant your/you're violation. Egregious in ANY English-speaking country, yet completely ignored here. Shame.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

wooglin said:


> Meanwhile we have a blatant your/you're violation. Egregious in ANY English-speaking country, yet completely ignored here. Shame.


I didn't want to be too much of a grammar nazi...


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

froze said:


> Perhaps, but again we are in America and the word spelt is not used at all, the American usage is spelled.  It's like learned vs learnt, anyone using the word learnt in America is considered illiterate and so it is with spelt. And spelled is the preferred form throughout the English speaking world today.


We?

I am in Yurop, you yanky you !


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> We?
> 
> I am in Yurop, you yanky you !


Forgive him... he's a bloody septic.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

froze said:


> ... we are in America ...


We be in teh InterWebs!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

orange_julius said:


> We be in teh InterWebs!


Wah teh say ye?


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