# When is it too many stem spacers?



## turborob (Sep 29, 2002)

Hello all...I'm finally getting around to migrating my old components onto my new-to-me frame and have a spacer question.

It appears that the fork on my used frame was never cut down, or it was barely cut, but I don't have a lot to compare to. Right now, I have my Ritchey WCS stem on it which itself has a stack height of 40mm. With a 5mm spacer on top of the stem to give me some future adjustability, I need another 30mm of spacers below the stem.

Does that sound like a lot? I probably wouldn't have given it much thought, except that I don't have another 30mm of spacers lying around. At this point I'm not really worried about appearances as I will work on dialing in the fit this spring, but I don't want it to be totally off the charts ridiculous.


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## Rollo Tommassi (Feb 5, 2004)

*Good question*

The top of the steerer should exceed the height of the topmost clampbolt of the stem by 3-4mm.

For carbon steerers, manufacturers reccomend not exceeding 40mm of spacers underneath the stem.

If you cannot add spacers underneath the stem to effect the correct bar height, you have to get a stem with a steeper rise.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Question: When is it too many stem spacers? 
Answer: When I look at it and start to roll my eyes and smirk.
.
Anything over 20mm under the stem, begins to look "funny". If, because of your frame choice, you are "forced" to use 40mm of spacers, you will just have to learn to take the "guff" that you will get.
,
,
,
,
ARP


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*I think that*

visually, I agree, 5mm-20mm of spacer tends to look best on modern road frames. From safety angle for carbon steerer 30mm is the recommended max and 40mm with alloy steerer. 

If you need 40mm-50mm spacer under the stem then I would consider 20-30mm spacer and a flipped up +6 or +8 or +10 degree stem. Floyd Landis used a flipped up stem in TDF 2006 albeit with very little spacer (10mm?). Yes, it does (IMHO) look a bit goofy but as long as you are riding there is no problem.

If a flipped up stem still means having >30mm of spacers then chances are your frame is either wrong size or wrong geometry for your body. IMHO.

IME: I have 30mm of spacer and -4 degree stem on aluminium steerer on my Time Edge. It does not look as "slick" as 20mm spacer would but it looks good enough for me. I could drop to 20mm spacer and +4 degree stem if I wanted to.

Stay Upright.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Most forks have specifications on the maximum amount of spacers between the headset and stem, but I think they tend to be on the conservative side. Check with the manufacturer of your fork, or the place you bought it.

With regard to riser stems, you just have to get over any preconceived notions about the proper "look" for a road bike. With threadless stems and the short head tubes on most modern bikes, it is hard for many cyclists to get their handlebars high enough without usinr riser stems. At most group rides I go to nowadays, the vast majority of bikes have riser stems. It's just no big deal.

What is a big deal is riding with handlebars too low because you're trying to achieve a certain look. If you only ride occasionally and your bike is mainly for show, then it might not matter. However, if you ride a lot of miles, it is much more important to be comfortable. I tried to ride a bike with handlebars too low for about 6 months, 3,000 miles, and I was miserable. I also developed terrible numbness in my hands and neck pains. The problems went away after I raised my handlebars.

It is also wrong to conclude that a bike doesn't properly fit someone if they have to use a riser stem, a few spacers or high handlebars. Many bike manufacturers have not adapted their designs to the advent of threadless stems. Most bikes with theadless stems/forks SHOULD have longer head tubes to provide cyclists with more flexibility with regard to handlebar height. Some of the manufacturers understand that, such as Pegoretti, and some major manufactuers offer models with longer head tubes (eg, Specialized Roubaix). The problem is that most road bikes have head tubes that practically necessitate that riders use spacers and riser stems to raise handlebars enough.


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## turborob (Sep 29, 2002)

Thanks for all the good advice. This frame is a Giant TCR with compact geometry, and comparing it to my old setup it looks like I will have more than enough handlebar height to be very comfortable. It's just hard to be sure until I get everything together and actually ride it.

I think for right now I will go with 30mm under the stem and 5mm above the stem. After I put some miles on it, I'll see if lower would be better and eventually trim the steerer tube.

I'm not super concerned about the "look", as I'm sure the full Discovery team kit my wife got me on closeout for Christmas will garner enough attention and distract everyone away from my bike 

I have to admit that I'm usually a bargain shopper and buy the no-name bibs and closeout jerseys, but the Nike stuff sure has a nice feel to it. Too bad it's usually out of my price range...


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*What you are doing.........*



turborob said:


> Thanks for all the good advice. This frame is a Giant TCR with compact geometry, and comparing it to my old setup it looks like I will have more than enough handlebar height to be very comfortable. It's just hard to be sure until I get everything together and actually ride it.
> 
> I think for right now I will go with 30mm under the stem and 5mm above the stem. After I put some miles on it, I'll see if lower would be better and eventually trim the steerer tube.
> 
> ...


is a great way to figure out what contact point position works for you. Keep experimenting with more stretched out and lower, until you find what works for you for the riding you do. Once you have that info, then, and only then, (IMO) do you have the right information to go buy another bike that fits you better.

3 cm of spacers and a riser stem is an indication of an ill-fitting frame, a frame with too short a headtube. Again, IMO. That doesn't mean you can't ride it, or enjoy it, but there are other, better fitting solutions for your position.

There are many bikes I would like to own that, because of their geometry (including HT length) just won't fit me without tons of spacers/riser stems (and I set my bars about 5cm below the seat). As Tarwheel said above, manufacturers continue to bring out bikes where with very short headtubes.

I've gotten to the point where the third measurement I look at when evaluating a frame (after STA & TT length) is Head tube length. All three have to work for me or I just move on.

Len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Isn't this......*



tarwheel2 said:


> It is also wrong to conclude that a bike doesn't properly fit someone if they have to use a riser stem, a few spacers or high handlebars. Many bike manufacturers have not adapted their designs to the advent of threadless stems. Most bikes with theadless stems/forks SHOULD have longer head tubes to provide cyclists with more flexibility with regard to handlebar height. Some of the manufacturers understand that, such as Pegoretti, and some major manufactuers offer models with longer head tubes (eg, Specialized Roubaix). The problem is that most road bikes have head tubes that practically necessitate that riders use spacers and riser stems to raise handlebars enough.


bass ackwards?

If I understand what you are saying it's.....find the bike you want and then jury rig the spacer/riser stems to make it fit. To me that is backwards. Why not know your fit points and then buy the bike that best fits that? 

The more people do what you suggest, the less likely it will be that manufacturers produce bikes that fit the way people actually ride.

I agree with most of what you say, I just don't think we need to settle for this.

Len


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Len J said:


> There are many bikes I would like to own that, because of their geometry (including HT length) just won't fit me without tons of spacers/riser stems (and I set my bars about 5cm below the seat). As Tarwheel said above, manufacturers continue to bring out bikes where with very short headtubes.
> 
> I've gotten to the point where the third measurement I look at when evaluating a frame (after STA & TT length) is Head tube length. All three have to work for me or I just move on.
> 
> Len


+1...If the HT length is too short, I won't even consider the frame.. I'd don't like a lot of bar drop and too many of the new bikes have HTs that are too short.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

>If I understand what you are saying it's.....find the bike you want and then jury rig the spacer/riser stems to make it fit. To me that is backwards. Why not know your fit points and then buy the bike that best fits that?<

Not exactly. Probably the most important dimensions for bike fit are top tube length and seat tube angle. Probably 99% of the stock bike frames that have the right top tube length for me have head tubes that are too short. The ones with long enough head tubes are either very expensive (eg, Pegoretti) or fairly new models that weren't around the last time I bought a new bike (eg, Specialized Roubaix.).

I've ridden Merckx frames because they have a relatively short top tube and slack seat tube angle. The head tubes are shorter than ideal, but I make up for that by using spacers and riser stems. It may not look ideal, but my bikes fit me perfect. Although they might look a little nicer with a traditional low-rise stem, they wouldn't fit me.

Sure, I could go out and order a custom frame or buy a whole new bike with a longer head tube, but why bother? It would cost me a bunch of money with no tangible benefits other than looks. I like my Merckx and I've gotten used to the spacers and riser stems.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Len J said:


> 3 cm of spacers and a riser stem is an indication of an ill-fitting frame, a frame with too short a headtube. Again, IMO.


I agree about the spacers, but it is more efficient to have the stem flipped up than to have a taller headtube... lighter, stiffer, etc. I know it is the style to have the stem pretty close to horizontal... but a +6-8 degree stem (which gives ~+25 degree angle) doesn't look too bad on a compact frame. 

What looks really dumb is a bunch of spacers and a horizontal stem...


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*How......*



rruff said:


> I but it is more efficient to have the stem flipped up than to have a taller headtube... lighter, stiffer, etc. ..


Do you figure this?

A longer headtube is part of the frame and can stiffen the frame.....as to lighter......by how much?

Len]


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*So you agree......*



tarwheel2 said:


> >If I understand what you are saying it's.....find the bike you want and then jury rig the spacer/riser stems to make it fit. To me that is backwards. Why not know your fit points and then buy the bike that best fits that?<
> 
> Not exactly. Probably the most important dimensions for bike fit are top tube length and seat tube angle. Probably 99% of the stock bike frames that have the right top tube length for me have head tubes that are too short. The ones with long enough head tubes are either very expensive (eg, Pegoretti) or fairly new models that weren't around the last time I bought a new bike (eg, Specialized Roubaix.).
> 
> ...


you buy the bike first and then jury rig the stem and spacers to fit. That is the way most people are forced to do it by the manufacturers. I just refuse to participate.

I don't think I'm paying extra for custom either. Custom prices are usually at or below high end manufatctured frame prices.

Len


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## csboy (Dec 23, 2004)

*I Agree*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> Question: When is it too many stem spacers?
> Answer: When I look at it and start to roll my eyes and smirk.
> .
> Anything over 20mm under the stem, begins to look "funny". If, because of your frame choice, you are "forced" to use 40mm of spacers, you will just have to learn to take the "guff" that you will get.
> ...


I AGREE WITH MR GRUMPY WHOLE HEARTILY


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Len J said:


> A longer headtube is part of the frame and can stiffen the frame.....as to lighter......by how much?


A longer headtube doesn't stiffen the frame... it's extra tubing to flex. Plus a longer steerer will flex more than a short one. 

The weight you save is the weight of the head tube plus steerer tube for the extra length.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*You misunderstand.....*



rruff said:


> A longer headtube doesn't stiffen the frame... it's extra tubing to flex. Plus a longer steerer will flex more than a short one.
> 
> The weight you save is the weight of the head tube plus steerer tube for the extra length.


I was comparing a longer headtube with little or no spacers and a stem with the same same slope as the top tube, with a shorter headtube, large cm of spacers and a riser stem........The weight difference is nominal.

As to frame flex.......I'm assuming an otherwise properly designed frame. It's a non-issue.

Len


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