# Plush Road Bike - Which is Best



## bikerneil (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm thinking of buying a new bike and want one of the new bikes designed for comfort on long grand fondo type rides. I know this class of plush road bikes has really taken off in recent few years. If my budget is $10K - what is very best bike in this category? I want the bike that eats up the road noise but still flies. 

I am currently considering a Felt Z1. I know Pinarello was talking about making a Dogma K, but I have not seen it. Other ideas?

thx.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

For that money, get a Guru Evolo. Custom built to your specs. They can make you whatever you want. There are also other custom builders that can do this as well. It may be the only way to get exactly what you are after.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

For that money buy something that you will still love in 10+ years time.
Not anything made of Carbon Fibre.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Lots of bikes are in that category. Look for ones with slacker geometry. Also make sure it accommodates 25 tires. You will find wider tires at lower pressure does more than anything to reduce road noise and increase comfort


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

Go out and test ride everything you can.
Everyone's a$$ is different. No one can tell you how you feel. 

Also, if you're over 55, just go buy something Ti, like a Moots. If you're under you have alot more choices.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

maximum7 said:


> Also, if you're over 55, just go buy something Ti, like a Moots. If you're under you have alot more choices.


Huh?
I bought my Moots at 40.
Still riding and racing it now.
I just bought my 2nd ti road frame and again ride and race it.
I also have a ti MTB that I bought at 42. Still ride and race it.

I am 45 in January.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

maximum7 said:


> Go out and test ride everything you can.
> Everyone's a$$ is different. No one can tell you how you feel.
> 
> Also, if you're over 55, just go buy something Ti, like a Moots. If you're under you have alot more choices.


Thanks for getting my "dumbest thing I have seen today" out of the way early.

Moots does make a great bike though.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

For $10k?

Custom:

Seven 
Moots
Indy Fab
Kish
Parlee
Spectrum
Eriksen
DeSalvo
Strong

Wow! You could get a lot of custom anything.


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

For $10k, I'd spend $5k on a Specialized Roubaix with upgraded wheels. I'd then spend the other $5k riding it around France and Italy for a few weeks. 

Though I think "plush" is actually marketing gibberish designed for people who think they can't get comfortable on a bike. If I were shopping for a "plush" road bike (I was) I would give a serious look at a Cervelo R3 (I did) and then buy it (I did) and get it fitted properly (I did) upgrade the wheels (I did) and then ride it 6,000mi a year. (I do.) Haven't gotten it to France or Italy yet, though.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Agree with rjp on the roubaix and Italy but would also check out the domane and defy.


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## brianb21 (Jul 21, 2010)

Go try the new trek domane it is just what you are looking for.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Trek domane, hands down.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

For $10K, you have a ton of choices. Just to name a couple, the Specialized Roubaix SL4. The S-Works version is super nice. 










The Trek Domane as well. You can go the Project One route and config it to your liking. 










Custom Ti if that is more to your liking is also a great way to go.


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## shoegazer (Nov 2, 2007)

bikerneil said:


> I'm thinking of buying a new bike and want one of the new bikes designed for comfort on long grand fondo type rides. I know this class of plush road bikes has really taken off in recent few years. If my budget is $10K - what is very best bike in this category? I want the bike that eats up the road noise but still flies.
> 
> I am currently considering a Felt Z1. I know Pinarello was talking about making a Dogma K, but I have not seen it. Other ideas?
> 
> thx.


I truly love my Pinarello Kobh (Dogma K) - it's everything I've ever wanted in a bike and more. I could've ordered a custom and may do so in the future but, for now, I can't imagine being more pleased. I have several wheelsets and tubulars that allow it to be whatever type of ride I'm looking for - fast or plush or fast plush.
2011 Team Sky Kobh
SRAM Red
Mavic SSC Paris Roubaix rims/ C King hubs / FMB P-R 28s
Enve 45T / CK hubs / FMB PR 25s
Stans / CK hubs / Vittoria or Hutchinson


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

I'd recommend test riding a Trek Domane - 

I started riding at 55 years old in June this year on a dual sport, decided to get a road bike instead, chose the Domane 5.2 September 1st. Rode my first century October 20th, second one the next day, third one 3 days after the second one. All adding up hours for the Strava 60 hours in 3 weeks challenge which I completed easily Saturday morning, 2 weeks total - 9th in the world to finish and 2nd in my age group (now 56). The Domane made the effort pretty easy even for a newbee to road biking. 

It's a very cushy ride when you get one sized well for you that optimizes comfort. Went with a 58cm frame to set up for a little more upright riding position (H3). This frame with a 10mm shorter stem and 4 cm shorter seat top cap fits me perfect. The only pick for comfort for me was the saddle which I changed within 2 weeks - but that's a personal thing - some might find the stock saddle great. 

It's way under your budget but you can take the extra funds and buy lots of gear, and travel to enjoy the new ride, or you could spring for a 6 series and/or get a Di2 set up too. Throw in some tubeless tires (rims are tubeless ready) and it would be hard to beat for comfort.


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> Huh?
> I bought my Moots at 40.
> Still riding and racing it now.
> I just bought my 2nd ti road frame and again ride and race it.
> ...


Hip hip hooray! 
I can't remember ever seeing anybody under 50 on a Ti bike. 
Never said they were bad, but usually not what the younger guys ride, at least around here.




> Thanks for getting my "dumbest thing I have seen today" out of the way early.
> Moots does make a great bike though.


Thanks! How contradictory of you...


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

maximum7 said:


> Hip hip hooray!
> I've never seen anybody under 50 on a Ti bike.
> Never said they were bad, but usually not what the younger guys ride, at least around here.


Maybe you need to go out more often? 

.....just saying..........


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

I couldn't agree more. It's been constantly raining here, so hard to get motivated to go out and get wet. 

In the summer, on the club rides with the biggest club in Portland, (you know the city voted #1 for cycling in the country), I still haven't seen many.

...and I'm just saying it's an observation, not that it's wrong or bad to own a Ti bike if you're under 55.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

dcgriz said:


> Maybe you need to go out more often?
> 
> .....just saying..........


Or start riding with his eyes open.
I know many people far younger than 50 (under 40 even) who have ti bikes.
I know some under 40 with multiple ti bikes.

Still trying to understand what CF is going to offer someone under 50 that ti doesn't.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

bikerneil said:


> I'm thinking of buying a new bike and want one of the new bikes designed for comfort on long grand fondo type rides. I know this class of plush road bikes has really taken off in recent few years. If my budget is $10K - what is very best bike in this category? I want the bike that eats up the road noise but still flies.
> 
> I am currently considering a Felt Z1. I know Pinarello was talking about making a Dogma K, but I have not seen it. Other ideas?
> 
> thx.


The very best plush bike for you to do grand fondo rides is the one that YOU

a) have the optimum fit for spending 6 or more hrs on the saddle. The average rider typically needs a bit more upright position; the trade-off is less power delivered to the pedals. Only you and your fitter (hopefully) know where is the demarcation line between comfort and performance for your body and your ability.

b) have the ability to control effortlessly after 6 hrs on the saddle. Do you want neutral handling? Or higher trail for more stability? Longer chain stays? Room for 28 or 30 mm tires? 

c) feel comfortable after riding for 6 hrs. Almost everybody nowadays wants the so called "vertically compliant but laterally stiff" frame. If a given frame offers that for the typical 165-175 lbs rider then what happens if you are 140 lbs or 240 lbs? Do you ride on a 2x4 or on a wet noodle?

The point for all of the above is that your optimum plush bike is a bike designed to be on you and only you assuming you know what you need. Any bike of the shelf would be ok but your question is about the best and not for an ok bike. Also any bike that fits relatively well could be transformed to a plush bike with the right selection on stem, saddle, wheels and more important, tires.

I do have to say though the way you present your case makes you the dream buyer.


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## Blue Star (Jun 9, 2012)

32 spoke-3 cross lacing wheels and the fattest tires your frame can handle... that's how you get plush!


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Think what maximum7 is noticing is the younger guys he rides with may not have the discretionary funds to afford Ti, and carbon bikes may be easier to get the "bro deal" from shop or Internet. Older riders may be more financially secure and can afford Ti bikes.

When I was in my 30's/40's I had 1 MTB and 1 road bike, both good bikes but mid line as that was all I could afford. Wish I had my fitness/age then with the bikes I have now!


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> Think what maximum7 is noticing is the younger guys he rides with may not have the discretionary funds to afford Ti, and carbon bikes may be easier to get the "bro deal" from shop or Internet


No, sorry, that's not what I'm noticing. I don't notice their bank accounts or what they can afford. How would I notice that? What one rides, doesn't necessarily mean it's what he can afford.
What I do notice is like I stated above. The majority of Ti owners I know and have seen, are over 55. Most of the guys I ride with are older than me and in their 50's. I also never said no one under 55 owns one. I never said they were bad bikes either. 



> Older riders may be more financially secure and can afford Ti bikes.


Really? Even though FTR states this? 


> I know many people far younger than 50 (under 40 even) who have ti bikes.
> I know some under 40 with multiple ti bikes.


Now who's putting people in a box?




> Still trying to understand what CF is going to offer someone under 50 that ti doesn't. /QUOTE]
> 
> Who said anything about CF?
> 
> Come on guys. Don't de-rail this thread anymore by putting words I never said, in my mouth.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

maximum7 said:


> Come on guys. Don't de-rail this thread anymore by putting words I never said, in my mouth.


So what do other frame materials offer that ti doesn't?


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

When I'm 55, I'll tell you. :wink5:


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

maximum7 said:


> When I'm 55, I'll tell you. :wink5:


So your argument was just that.
An argument with nothing to back it up.

Cool, I get it.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

FTR said:


> For that money buy something that you will still love in 10+ years time.
> Not anything made of Carbon Fibre.



Agreed.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

Volagi looks like they'd be comfortable rides, especially since you can run wide tires.


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

maximum7 said:


> Come on guys. Don't de-rail this thread anymore by putting words I never said, in my mouth.


Ok, how about what you actually did say:



maximum7 said:


> Also, if you're over 55, just go buy something Ti, like a Moots. If you're under you have alot more choices.


Why does someone under 55 have "alot (_sic_) more choices"? Are there bikes that folks over 55 are not allowed to buy?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Be careful, he will start sending you PM's about why you are "putting words in his mouth".


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

Which you did, and wouldn't stop, so I politely tried to take it off the forum and discuss it more rationally which, was lost on you. 


What did I say? 
Well if it's too much trouble to go back and read my post, I'll post it again.

"Go out and test ride everything you can.
Everyone's a$$ is different. No one can tell you how you feel.

Also, if you're over 55, just go buy something Ti, like a Moots. If you're under you have alot more choices."

So really if you can't understand that. I'll explain it. 
""Go out and test ride everything you can.
Everyone's a$$ is different. No one can tell you how you feel"

....meaning everyone is going to feel different about what is plush to them, and that the OP should go ride everything he can and see what works best for him. 
FTR states "not carbon fiber", even though several other people have posted Specialized, Trek, Cevelo some poster even posted a pic of a Pinarello for heavens sake!
But I don't see him or anybody going after them for posting a CF bike. 
What did I suggest? Nothing. How can he make a blunt statement like that? It's not fact, it's subjective. Has he ridden a Pinarello, a Look a Time, a Fuji a Cervelo, a Colnago, a Schwinn, a GT, a Cyfac, etc... and come to the conclusion that there is no way possible that they can be plush? Which would still be opinion? 
I said other choices, not better choices and listed none, because I can't make a statement like that.

"Also, if you're over 55, just go buy something Ti, like a Moots. If you're under you have alot more choices."

This statement for some reason has rattled feathers. I don't understand why, but all of the guys I know on a Ti bike are over 55, maybe 50. In talking to them over time riding with them, they usually state because they think it will last, and they really like the ride and how smooth it is.

What I *didn't* say was one material was better than the other, or that you can't buy a Ti bike if you're under 55, or that any material was better than Ti. 

I have a hunch that all the guys that said a CF bike in this thread are under 55. Which kinda shows that younger people consider other materials than Ti. So why aren't you hammering them for their opinion in thinking that their carbon is better than Ti? 

You seem bent out of shape over me stating an age associated with Ti. I've experienced it, and should be able to say it just as FTR can say "not carbon fiber".

FTR says I'm not backing up my argument. I never argued any material was better. I said you have choices. So yes, putting words in my posts I never said.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

maximum7 said:


> Which you did, and wouldn't stop, so I politely tried to take it off the forum and discuss it more rationally which, was lost on you.
> 
> 
> What did I say?
> ...


You have now moved up to first place in the stupidly funny posts I have read today.
Stop taking it so personally.
It is all in your head that I am singling you out.
Get over yourself.


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## loona (Sep 28, 2012)

Trek Domane: IsoSpeed Technology - YouTube

Trek Domane - First Look - YouTube

riding it on bumpy trails 

TREK DOMANE - YouTube


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## LetsGoOutside (Dec 2, 2005)

S-Works Roubaix. Hell even the comp level SL4 Roubaix sounds up your alley. Trek does an alright job with their "endurance road bikes" but the new Roubaix accelerates like an SL2 Tarmac and rides better. 

Pinarello's ROKH is god too but stiffer, just like the Trek. The Pinarello would be my second choice if you want a carbon bike. Otherwise custom ti all the way.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I don't think that's fair. Most people on Ti are older. I see guys on Ti at my races and none of them are under 40. In fact, most of them are over 50. The industry saying goes; The color of the frame matches the color of the rider's hair." I don't know where most of you ride, but a young person on Ti isn't something you see everyday. I live here in Southern California and I average 1,200 miles a month. When I see a Ti bike, I usually see some guy with a grey beard or grey hair. In fact, it's been a long time since I've seen anyone under 40 riding Ti and I notice bikes. Carbon is the flavor for the younger crowd. Sorry but I'm siding with Maximum7 on this one.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

terbennett said:


> I don't think that's fair. Most people on Ti are older. I see guys on Ti at my races and none of them are under 40. In fact, most of them are over 50. The industry saying goes; The color of the frame matches the color of the rider's hair." I don't know where most of you ride, but a young person on Ti isn't something you see everyday. I live here in Southern California and I average 1,200 miles a month. When I see a Ti bike, I usually see some guy with a grey beard or grey hair. In fact, it's been a long time since I've seen anyone under 40 riding Ti and I notice bikes. Carbon is the flavor for the younger crowd.


Maybe something YOU dont see every day.
And I did not say that they are the flavour for the younger crowd.
I said:



> For that money buy something that you will still love in 10+ years time.
> Not anything made of Carbon Fibre.


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm under 55 but for $10k budget, I'd definitely go custom... but either custom Ti, stainless steel, or carbon. There must be plenty of builders that can customize either of these materials into a great riding bicycle!


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## mcteague (Feb 7, 2005)

Riders over 50 tend to have been riding a long time. They have seen many fads come and go. At this stage they, generally, are more focused on ride quality than flash. So, you find lots of them riding Ti. Most are past the need to show how cool they are by riding the latest thing.

I am over 50 now and have had my Seven Axiom for a decade. I still have the urge to buy something new. However, when riding, I struggle to think of what I want to improve on my Seven. I am still thinking; nothing comes to mind.

Tim


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

I think a lot of older riders like Ti is because it was the material everyone dreamed about several years ago. The problem was the the cost of Litespeed, Merlin, Colnago, Serotta, etc. was very high. That left many of the male riders in their 30s and 40s at the time wanting Ti but couldn't afford it. Now these same people can and are buying/bought the bike they always wanted.


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

Custom. Steel might be more plush than Ti, but it depends on the maker and your body-type. I understand Moots Titanium can be too stiff for some. Stay away from carbon for the type of ride you are planning. A Pina is a very demanding bike, not really made for the type of riding you are talking about.

I would go Di2 steel and very exclusive steel road bikes for ultimate comfort. Especially if you have any hand issues. Maybe Waterford, maybe something much less known. The Guru fit machine is amazing, and probably worth it to make certain of optimum fit and comfort. 

I have a Pinarello Quattro. Very stiff, but not nearly so stiff as the Dogmas 60K carbon. (The Quattro is 30K). It's a demanding bike built for racing. Wouldn't use it under the circumstances you described. 

Did you mention relaxed vs aggressive geometry anywhere? More people are comfortable on more relaxed, upright geometry. Not everyone, I'm more comfortable with aggressive, but I'm very flexible, etc. 

And figure out which Brooks saddle allows you to sit without any bone contact to the underlying metal cantle plate, get one, and put it on your bike. Broken in leather is plush.

Another thing, carbon doesn't do well over years if you get into any wrecks. Steel does. Plus, steel is much smoother than most other rides. There are exceptions, of course, but in general I can say it's the most comfortable. 

I have a Pinarello, my dream duo is a Pina and custom steel with the perfect group (for me) and beautiful stainless lugs, fork, and stays. 10 K would about do it.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

can't really understand why someone that is plunking down TEN LARGE for a bike would really consider a Trek, Specialized, Giant, Felt, blah blah....you might end up with a decent riding bike, but ZERO panache and sizzle...

for that kind of money, at least take a look at Firefly, Seven, Crumpton, Serotta.

personally, I'd be all over a Firefly.

but, maybe they're not 'plush'...guess I don't relate to that word.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

FTR said:


> Maybe something YOU dont see every day.
> And I did not say that they are the flavour for the younger crowd.
> I said:


I wasn't commenting on your response. I agree with you completely. I'm talking about the responses him not seeing. I totally agree with you.


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## mcteague (Feb 7, 2005)

stanseven said:


> I think a lot of older riders like Ti is because it was the material everyone dreamed about several years ago. The problem was the the cost of Litespeed, Merlin, Colnago, Serotta, etc. was very high. That left many of the male riders in their 30s and 40s at the time wanting Ti but couldn't afford it. Now these same people can and are buying/bought the bike they always wanted.


I don't think the price of Ti is why only older riders prefer it. Have you seen the prices on the carbon frames many younger riders have? They are really not much cheaper, if at all.

Tim


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

stanseven said:


> I think a lot of older riders like Ti is because it was the material everyone dreamed about several years ago. The problem was the the cost of Litespeed, Merlin, Colnago, Serotta, etc. was very high. That left many of the male riders in their 30s and 40s at the time wanting Ti but couldn't afford it. Now these same people can and are buying/bought the bike they always wanted.


I don't have a Ti bike, but I fall in this category. I had a roommate who worked for Road bike Action Magazine back in 1994. he used to bring the coolest bikes home to test. The one I fell in love with was a Litespeed (Can't remember which model). It was the best rifding bike I've ever ridden (and still is), but I couldn't afford it as a college student. In about two years I will be shopping for a Ti bike. Why two years? My team is switching to Cannondale next year so I will be buying that. The following year, I will have the funds for my dream bike. I wouldn't ever race a Ti bike. Why abuse such an amazing work of art?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

terbennett said:


> I don't have a Ti bike, but I fall in this category. I had a roommate who worked for Road bike Action Magazine back in 1994. he used to bring the coolest bikes home to test. The one I fell in love with was a Litespeed (Can't remember which model). It was the best rifding bike I've ever ridden (and still is), but I couldn't afford it as a college student. In about two years I will be shopping for a Ti bike. Why two years? My team is switching to Cannondale next year so I will be buying that. The following year, I will have the funds for my dream bike. I wouldn't ever race a Ti bike. Why abuse such an amazing work of art?


I have 3 ti bikes (2 road and 1 MTB).
I race them all.
Why have such awesome bikes and then be forced to race something inferior??


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

maximum7 said:


> Hip hip hooray!
> I can't remember ever seeing anybody under 50 on a Ti bike.
> Never said they were bad, but usually not what the younger guys ride, at least around here.


I have a Ti bike, I'm 40. I've had it since I was 27. I've had several alloy and carbon bikes over that time. The Ti bike has never been for sale.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

This article is four years old but still... 

Andy Hampsten's bike


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

FTR said:


> I have 3 ti bikes (2 road and 1 MTB).
> I race them all.
> Why have such awesome bikes and then be forced to race something inferior??


I see your point....


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## asleep at the keel (Aug 24, 2011)

I'm 54 and dream every night about a Ti bike. When I retire I'll get a couple nice fat checks that I'll use to head out to Boston and get fitted for a Firefly. Lots of beautiful Ti bikes being built but this one has got to take the cake. When I consider the age thing I think, "yea I used to drink cheap beer too". I can afford good beer now, can't say the same for the bike right now.


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## JustACyclist (Sep 11, 2012)

Take a serious look at some of the modern steel frames and build off of that. My favorite rig is made with Columbus Spirit tubing with a Columbus Minimal full carbon fork. Currently it's built to a little over 16 lbs with pedals. Today's steel is not like that of your father's. It's lively on the road, dampens the vibration, descends like a rocket and turns everybody's eye. It won't be as sluggish as the Ti, yet with a nice build out will compete on weight with the Ti bike.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

JustACyclist said:


> It won't be as sluggish as the Ti, yet with a nice build out will compete on weight with the Ti bike.


What ti have you been riding that is sluggish?


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## asleep at the keel (Aug 24, 2011)

JustACyclist,

Are you referring to a bike you own? If so, I'd sure like to see picks. I am aware there are some very nice modern steel rigs on the road.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

JustACyclist said:


> Take a serious look at some of the modern steel frames and build off of that. My favorite rig is made with Columbus Spirit tubing with a Columbus Minimal full carbon fork. Currently it's built to a little over 16 lbs with pedals. Today's steel is not like that of your father's. It's lively on the road, dampens the vibration, descends like a rocket and turns everybody's eye. It won't be as sluggish as the Ti, yet with a nice build out will compete on weight with the Ti bike.


sluggish Ti bikes...? like which ones?

and typically Ti isn't chosen as a frame material for weight savings.

premium old steel frames have exactly the same qualities that you claim 'new' steel has...

but feel free to continue to 'educate' us.


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## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

Ha, ha, hilarious thread.

10K for a bike? Not sure why anyone would want to. I ride several that would have been 10K new ($4500 CF frames). But find myself too conservative generally to buy the "lastest and greatest" every year. This years 10K bike is generally worth 1/2 that a year from now, with few exceptions.

But once you really start looking at bikes and take the time to figure what you like specifically for parts most will want to "piece" them together. Sure a Red group and a set of Zipps almost gets you there but then there is the saddle and bars and stem. Brakes? For 10K or even 4K why not have the best of everything?

I've ridden steel, Ti, CF and combo of the previous. Everything I ride currently for a road bike is CF. The oldest now is 7 years old and still going stong. BTW I am over 55. 

To the OP? I have owned a S works Roubaix and several of the Cervelos. Good wheels, tires and tubes and a good saddle can make a huge difference on comfort when you start riding 200 mile days. Which I didn't notice anyone mentioning. Nor has anyone mentiuoned a perfect bike fit. Those things are way more important than the frame you choose imo. There are many good choice in frames. And several truly spectacular ones.

But nothing wrong with the Roubaix or R SeriesCervelo bikes imo. If I wanted to drop 10K it would likely be on a Cervelo R series with a pair of tubular Zipps. The get the bike fit by one of the best in the business where ever you are at. Add the best fiting carbon soled road shoes and shorts you can find. 

Depending on your fitness and flexibility you may or may not be able to take advantage of some of the best production frames. That is also something I would look at before dropping 10K on a specific bike.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

mcteague said:


> Riders over 50 tend to have been riding a long time. They have seen many fads come and go. At this stage they, generally, are more focused on ride quality than flash. So, you find lots of them riding Ti. Most are past the need to show how cool they are by riding the latest thing.
> 
> I am over 50 now and have had my Seven Axiom for a decade. I still have the urge to buy something new. However, when riding, I struggle to think of what I want to improve on my Seven. I am still thinking; nothing comes to mind.
> 
> Tim


I second that. I'm over 50 and would rather have fewer high quality bikes.


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## bikerneil (Nov 3, 2007)

Thank you everyone for your replies. It's been interesting to see everyone's feelings on the subject. I'm still riding my Look 595 right now and I am buried in work thru the end of the year so I am in no hurry. In January I will begin the actual process of looking at and riding bikes. 

Before this post I was 100% convinced I would be shopping for a carbon bike (that's all I have ridden for years). As a result of this post I will test ride some Ti bikes. This month's edition of Bicycling magazine had a feature article on Ti bikes - which was also helpful.

I agree with many of the comments made here - the importance of a professional fit (which I have had on my current bike), the huge impact that tires have on the ride, and what may be right for one rider may not be right for another - all are true. 

I must admit I never thought of steel, don't know that I could do that (maybe I'm just not smart enough or don't understand the technology). If steel is a true option why has it all but been replaced by Carbon and Aluminum? (That's a serious question - is it more expensive or what?)

I forgot to mention that the bling factor also has some value (since I am setting budget at $10K) so that will enter in to my decision. I will be splurging on electronic Dura Ace (you campy fans can flame me now) and some good carbon wheels too.

I will post after I make the final splurge. Then you can all flame me for the decision that I made and you can throw up all over me for spending $10,000 on a bike. Ha!

thx.


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## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

Going to be hard I suspect to better the 595.

That said, I think this covers the Ti thing pretty well.

"I think a lot of older riders like Ti is because it was the material everyone dreamed about several years ago. The problem was the the cost of Litespeed, Merlin, Colnago, Serotta, etc. was very high. That left many of the male riders in their 30s and 40s at the time wanting Ti but couldn't afford it. Now these same people can and are buying/bought the bike they always wanted."

If you keep up on the technology it seems obvious what can be done with Ti has been long surpassed with carbon.

The last hill climb tt I did in July, one of the middle of the pack guys was mid 60s, on a S5 with DA Di2 and loving the shift buttons in his drops. He beat me easily and I took a full minute off my last time there. His S5? A VWD which comes in at 900g for the frame alone and is more aero than anything but a full on TT bike and seems to have the comfort of most Fundo specific bikes. No one going to match that in Ti. $9K retail now selling for 1/2 that if you look around. Add some 303 or 404s and you are easily within your origianl budjet.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

Nob said:


> If you keep up on the technology it seems obvious what can be done with Ti has been long surpassed with carbon.
> 
> The last hill climb tt I did in July, one of the middle of the pack guys was mid 60s, on a S5 with DA Di2 and loving the shift buttons in his drops. He beat me easily and I took a full minute off my last time there.


swap bikes with him, he'll still beat you.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

JustACyclist said:


> Take a serious look at some of the modern steel frames and build off of that. My favorite rig is made with Columbus Spirit tubing with a Columbus Minimal full carbon fork. Currently it's built to a little over 16 lbs with pedals. Today's steel is not like that of your father's. It's lively on the road, dampens the vibration, descends like a rocket and turns everybody's eye. It won't be as sluggish as the Ti, yet with a nice build out will compete on weight with the Ti bike.


There is just as much variety in Ti as there is in Steel. I had a beautiful custom steel bike before I got my Ti bike. If "Steel is real", then "Ti is magic". You may not have experienced the good stuff yet..



Oxtox said:


> swap bikes with him, he'll still beat you.


^^This^^. I don't have the lightest bikes but I can say this confidently: I have NEVER been beaten in a road race or criterium by another rider's equipment. Ever.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

davidka said:


> ^^This^^. I don't have the lightest bikes but I can say this confidently: I have NEVER been beaten in a road race or criterium by another rider's equipment. Ever.


Really??
I have riderless bikes and equipment overtake me all the time.
Just last week I was beaten in a race by a DI2 shifter and derailleur.


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## Nob (Nov 24, 2006)

Oxtox said:


> swap bikes with him, he'll still beat you.


 Nice of *you* to educate us now. It was a TT. I wasn't racing *him*. I beat the only guy I was concerned about by almost a full minute on a 20 minute course.. Amazingly I had the same exact bike as he did.


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## GGW (Jul 13, 2008)

post deleted


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

I have owned carbon, alu, steel frames, and I've ridden a number of Ti frames for a few hours at a time. For the price point you're talking about, let me reduce everything down to a simple statement: frame geometry, material, and how both are designed, make the frame. 

There is no magic formula depending on materials. It is possible to make crappy frames from expensive materials, be it Ti, carbon, alu, steel. 

But if I were splurging down $5k on one frame, and if I were very concerned about getting something that is "plush", here's what I would do. First, I would figure out why "plush" is such an issue, and what it takes to get more plushness. Is it because my neck gets tired after a ride? Is it because my butt gets sore after a ride? Maybe geometry optimization is the answer: a longer wheelbase, a more relaxed handling so that I can have a better position on the bike. Maybe larger tires, and softer fork, is the answer to poor quality roads. Maybe it's tubeless tires so that I can run 23mm tires on my "fast" wheels but at lower pressure. 

Second, I'd go to a good builder and discuss what I like and dislike about my current bikes. Maybe I like the crisp front-end of one frame, so I want that in the next frame. But maybe I can give up some rear-end stiffness. It's then up to you and the builder to work together and design a bike that suits what you want. Fortunately for me, I have a regular builder Cyfac who already knows my likes and dislikes and go above and beyond in delivering the qualities that I want. 

FWIW, I have a "plush" carbon frame that I love because it soaks up bumps really well and still has a nice snap to it. But for long rides I prefer my "plush" steel frame simply because it has longer wheelbase and its handling is more relaxed. I can put on 28mm tires to get more bump absorption, too. But it doesn't have the snap of my carbon frame. Is it the geometry or the material? Well, it's both. I have an alu frame with nearly-identical geometry as my steel frame and I can tell you it handles quite differently. 

Finally, the choices above should not be answered in binary form. Many believe in the supremacy of steel, others in Ti, others in carbon. All these materials give different starting points - there is no denying that - but design and execution of the frame trumps all else.


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## Pattonn (Nov 7, 2012)

+1 on trying the Cervelo R series and a great set of wheels... at this time of year you may find a smoking deal on a 2012 R5 that will make you feel joy each and every time you go for a ride... I recently converted from steel bikes and it is hard to put into words how amazing my R3 rides.


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## demondescender (Nov 21, 2012)

*Custom build*

For that budget get it tailored and not off the shelf


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

10k is a ton of cash for a bike. Cervelo R5 or Roubaix Sworks would have to be at the top of the list with 2 sets of wheels and tires. it is interesting to see all of the custom TI vs Carbon fibre posts on this and another post. Both sides seem to think the other is crazy. My personal opinion is that if Titanium was a really good alternative for most riders it would be offered by some larger bike manufacturers and would sell better. You dont hear about pros racing or touring with TI bikes very often.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Donn12 said:


> 10k is a ton of cash for a bike. Cervelo R5 or Roubaix Sworks would have to be at the top of the list with 2 sets of wheels and tires. it is interesting to see all of the custom TI vs Carbon fibre posts on this and another post. Both sides seem to think the other is crazy. My personal opinion is that if Titanium was a really good alternative for most riders it would be offered by some larger bike manufacturers and would sell better. You dont hear about pros racing or touring with TI bikes very often.


You know why the pros ride and race carbon? Its what they are told to ride. Its what they are given to ride. Why? Its cheeper to make and there is more profit there. Ti is expensive, thats all.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

tihsepa said:


> You know why the pros ride and race carbon? Its what they are told to ride. Its what they are given to ride. Why? Its cheeper to make and there is more profit there. Ti is expensive, thats all.



That may be but I don't see any high end companies making TI bikes. i would think if they were really better Pinarello, Cervelo, Wiler, Trek , Cannondale or Specialized would offer some and they would sell. Some of the bikes offered by these companies are ludicrisly expensive so I dont think cost is whty they dont offer them. I dont know how much more they weigh or how much more they cost but it doesnt seem to be worth it in most scenarios or it would sell better.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Donn12 said:


> I don't see any high end companies making TI bikes. i would think if they were really better Pinarello, Cervelo, Wiler, Trek , Cannondale or Specialized would offer some and they would sell.


I think you misunderstand how luxury goods are bought and sold. What drives this kind of market is supply and demand fueled by clever advertising. How "good" or "useful" a product is has nothing to do with this. If people would suddenly want Ti bikes, all these companies you mention would race to peddle Ti bikes in a heartbeat. Logic has nothing to do with this—just look at the all the people buying top-end racing bikes but never acing. We want what the pros are riding, even if we just go on charity rides or drop-your-buddy shop rides.


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## Pattonn (Nov 7, 2012)

"You know why the pros ride and race carbon? Its what they are told to ride. Its what they are given to ride. Why? Its cheeper to make and there is more profit there. Ti is expensive, thats all. " 

This is an absurd position. If there were a competitive advantage available in Ti someone would be exploiting it. When you ride a high end carbon bike you can feel the (in my case a Cervelo R3) difference in stiffness to weight ratio. Carbon fiber offers advantages in weight, strength and aerodynamics. I weigh 245 lbs and I am constantly amazed at how rock solid a feather light bike can be... combine that with a lifetime frame warranty and you just cannot go wrong on carbon. Don't fool yourself... if Ti were better you can bet your bottom dollar that the British Cycling team would have been on custom hydro-formed Ti bikes at this most recent Olympics... and they are clearly not selling bikes.

Ti bikes can be really great bikes and so can steel... they may be what you choose for any number of reasons. Just don't convince your self that the entire industry has gone to carbon because it is cheaper and there is more profit... it may be cheaper and there may be more profit but the reason the industry went to carbon is because it makes a better bike. Look at a 12 lbs R5 CA and recognize that it is every bit as stiff and strong as my 16 lbs R3 and my R3 is worlds better than my 21 lbs steel bike. Just imagine a 12lbs titanium bike....it is hard to do because the material won't let you get there. Someday the R5 CA will be a normal off the rack bike and the very best Ti bikes will still weigh 16 lbs.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Pattonn said:


> "You know why the pros ride and race carbon? Its what they are told to ride. Its what they are given to ride. Why? Its cheeper to make and there is more profit there. Ti is expensive, thats all. "
> 
> This is an absurd position. .


To further reinforce my own absurdity. If Trek make a Ti bike, they would be everywhere. 

I would bet that 99% of all the bikes made, out of whatever material are never ridden to their full potential.

I would bet that AC could drop most people on a rusty Huffy with a flat and streamers. Keep that in mind. Its more the engine, not the bike.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

tihsepa said:


> To further reinforce my own absurdity. If Trek make a Ti bike, they would be everywhere.
> 
> I would bet that 99% of all the bikes made, out of whatever material are never ridden to their full potential.


IMHO, Ti would be the ideal choice for journeymen racers as they would better be able to tolerate being stacked tight in the back of a fifteen year old minivan driving to the Tour de Palookaville Cat 1/2/3 race.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

tihsepa said:


> To further reinforce my own absurdity. If Trek make a Ti bike, they would be everywhere.
> 
> I would bet that 99% of all the bikes made, out of whatever material are never ridden to their full potential.
> 
> I would bet that AC could drop most people on a rusty Huffy with a flat and streamers. Keep that in mind. Its more the engine, not the bike.


Of course it is more the engine than the bike. But could AC drop AS on a rusty old Huffy? 

More importantly, will I get dropped less quickly on my carbon race geo bike than on my old aluminum bike with fat 28 tires? That is really what I care about.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

NJBiker72 said:


> Of course it is more the engine than the bike. But could AC drop AS on a rusty old Huffy?
> 
> More importantly, will I get dropped less quickly on my carbon race geo bike than on my old aluminum bike with fat 28 tires? That is really what I care about.


No, but I dont think AS is a "most people". Do you? :thumbsup:

Back to the thread. 

My 25 LB (maybe) Salsa Casseroll with 32's is prety plush.


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## Pattonn (Nov 7, 2012)

I completely agree that 99% of all the bikes made, out of whatever material are never ridden to their full potential... And I also feel that there are many reasons to choose Ti or Steel for a frame, but your position that the entire industry has moved to carbon because it is cheaper is just false. Buy what you like, ride what you like...I may buy a titanium bike myself someday, but it won't be because I have deluded myself into thinking that it is faster or stronger than a similarly priced carbon frame.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

tihsepa said:


> No, but I dont think AS is a "most people". Do you? :thumbsup:
> 
> Back to the thread.
> 
> My 25 LB (maybe) Salsa Casseroll with 32's is prety plush.


No but your point was silly. To be nice. The point is not whether a bike makes you a world class racer but which bike gives you a little pick up compared to another.

I will go with my carbon fiber one when riding with people better than me. Gives me a couple more minutes before I get dropped. 

AC goes with that too because it helps him beat AS. He could outride me on a tricycle.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

NJBiker72 said:


> No but your point was silly. To be nice.
> 
> AC goes with that too because it helps him beat AS. He could outride me on a tricycle.


Dont be nice to me. I dont even have a bike. Just trolling the internet. :thumbsup:


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## dnmoss (Jun 27, 2008)

Firefly

http://fireflybicycles.com/

Former IF guys...Ti and Steel bikes...know a few people that own them and they seem extremely happy...just mentioning since I have not seen them in other posts here (I have no opinion on Ti, Steel or CF for others -- ride whatever suits your needs and makes you happy)


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

wim said:


> I think you misunderstand how luxury goods are bought and sold. What drives this kind of market is supply and demand fueled by clever advertising. How "good" or "useful" a product is has nothing to do with this. If people would suddenly want Ti bikes, all these companies you mention would race to peddle Ti bikes in a heartbeat. Logic has nothing to do with this—just look at the all the people buying top-end racing bikes but never acing. We want what the pros are riding, even if we just go on charity rides or drop-your-buddy shop rides.



Oh,My, GOD!!! What you are suggesting is a far reaching covert carbon bike advertising conspiracy! When the mainstream media gets ahold of this they are going to blow the lid off the entire industry!!! We will never be the same!!! 

Is there a black helicopter hovering above?

But I jest. Advertising can influence some buying behavior but the free market dictates what is sold, in what quantity and for how much. 
Another post claims that Trek could make TI bikes popular. I think this proves the point in reverse. trek does not make them because there is no demand. The market doesnt get TI as an alternative to carbon or alloy in almost any mainstream situation.


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## dnmoss (Jun 27, 2008)

Donn12 said:


> Advertising can influence some buying behavior but the free market dictates what is sold, in what quantity and for how much.


Are we moving into a philosophical debate about the relationship between free will and influences as it relates to the market for Ti and CF bicycles? Sounds like a thesis for some MIT Engineer turned Sloan MBA...


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Donn12 said:


> Oh,My, GOD!!! What you are suggesting is a far reaching covert carbon bike advertising conspiracy! When the mainstream media gets ahold of this they are going to blow the lid off the entire industry!!! We will never be the same!!!
> 
> Is there a black helicopter hovering above?
> 
> ...


Sorry, but marketing hype is a HUGE influence on what people buy with bikes. We are constantly seeing changes to standards that supposedly make bikes "better". Wider rims, tubeless BB30, PF30, tapered steerers, through axles etc. Do any of theses really improve on what we had? Doubtful IMO. But others will believe so and will "upgrade" as a result. Same can be said for CF.
And if you think that CF is not providing bike manufacturers huge mark ups then you need to go look at the Chinese carbon thread.

That said, ride what you like.


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## Pattonn (Nov 7, 2012)

What is the weight difference between the R5 CA frame and a top of the line Ti frame? Is weight a gimmick?


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

nevermind


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

*g*



Pattonn said:


> What is the weight difference between the R5 CA frame and a top of the line Ti frame? Is weight a gimmick?


Only in that it makes Joe average punter racer
boy believe he will be a better rider as a result..
The guy to beat at our local crits is on a "heavy" top end ti frame.
I often finish ahead of guys (and behind others) on their super light CF frames.

Weight (within reason) is a non issue IMO.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

FTR said:


> Only in that it makes Joe average punter racer
> boy believe he will be a better rider as a result..
> The guy to beat at our local crits is on a "heavy" top end ti frame.
> I often finish ahead of guys (and behind others) on their super light CF frames.
> ...


How is life in Iowa?


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## Pattonn (Nov 7, 2012)

Weight is an issue where I live:

7 Hills of Kirkland - Maps


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Pattonn said:


> Weight is an issue where I live:
> 
> 7 Hills of Kirkland - Maps


Sorry, less than 1kg of bike weight is not the issue.
You believe what you like but IMO it is not a weight issue.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

FTR said:


> Sorry, less than 1kg of bike weight is not the issue.
> You believe what you like but IMO it is not a weight issue.


Apples to apples how much more is TI and how much more does it weigh? If it costs 2 lbs more and costs 2k more on average thats gonna be a tough sale, even if it is more durable for the average person. I myself am a bike fanatic and all these threads are making me want to add a TI bike to my garage. I do think that the entire bike industry is obsessed over light weight which is a BIG deal on hills but for everyone else maybe no big deal at all.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Donn12 said:


> Apples to apples how much more is TI and how much more does it weigh? If it costs 2 lbs more and costs 2k more on average thats gonna be a tough sale, even if it is more durable for the average person. I myself am a bike fanatic and all these threads are making me want to add a TI bike to my garage. I do think that the entire bike industry is obsessed over light weight which is a BIG deal on hills but for everyone else maybe no big deal at all.


It does not cost $2k more.
My ti bikes were all within the price range of CF.
I think the difference in weight between my previous CF bike and my Moots (both with my Mad Fibers on) was 400g (1lb).


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

FTR said:


> It does not cost $2k more.
> My ti bikes were all within the price range of CF.
> I think the difference in weight between my previous CF bike and my Moots (both with my Mad Fibers on) was 400g (1lb).


Even that is a difference. And the titanium likely cost somewhat more not less. 

And is the lighter weight titanium as stiff? It is not as movable. 

Simply carbon lets designers be more creative and maximize potential. It may not be a drastic difference but when it is also less expensive it is not a difficult decision.


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## Stockli Boy (Jun 17, 2002)

I have a custom Ti bike I designed in 2004 (tall head tube, disc brakes, longish wheelbase, can take 32c tires...sound like anything out there now?), and I have a 2011 BMC RM01. The Ti bike climbs faster, smooths the roads out better, corners better, and stops faster. The BMC, with the oversized headtube, is stiffer laterally, but that's about the only plus. Granted, it's lighter, and was the most compliant of their higher-end carbon bikes, but if anything in the quiver has to go, it'll be the plastic bike.

What's not getting much attention in this thread is fit. If you go custom, you can not only dial in the fit, but also the plushness or stiffness. Although I like my steel 'cross bike, it feels damp, not lively, like my Ti bike. By going with a custom design for my exact geometry, as well as tuning the tubseset, I got the ride feel I wanted. The bike that fits best will be ridden most, and will be the most comfortable over long rides. Beyond that, it's not really rocket surgery. 

Ti is expensive, but so are steel and plastic. I think, however, from a longevity standpoint, it beats the other materials. Recently, I met a guy who said he had 90,000 miles on a Ti frame. Hopefully it's true. I don't think that the materials limit the designer's creativity (I have designed and built about 20 bikes, all metal). Ti and steel will be heavier than carbon, but unless you spend all your time climbing, it's not that big a deal. If weight was everything, my 16lb plastic bike would outclimb my 19lb Ti one, but it doesn't.

And, the age argument is asinine. Except for bikes made of pure hernium for small children, there is no age limit or cutoff on material.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

NJBiker72 said:


> Even that is a difference. And the titanium likely cost somewhat more not less.
> 
> And is the lighter weight titanium as stiff? It is not as movable.
> 
> Simply carbon lets designers be more creative and maximize potential. It may not be a drastic difference but when it is also less expensive it is not a difficult decision.


I have already said it is not more expensive. 
And I am 83kg. My CF bike was no stiffer than any of my ti bikes despite others telling me how stiff their bike that was the same was.


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## rgordin (Oct 22, 2010)

Very funny thread. I saw the question and clicked on the last few pages to read the responses. Difficult to find responses to the question among all the posts.


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

rgordin said:


> Very funny thread. I saw the question and clicked on the last few pages to read the responses. Difficult to find responses to the question among all the posts.


Lol, I was thinking the same thing!
I personally prefer carbon fiber for any type of riding. It can be made and tailored to any preference, and still be a lightweight ride. Ultra stiff track bike, downhill mtb, cyclocross mud racer, or even plush road bike. Frames made from tubing can come close, but can't be tailored like a carbon frame can be. My road bike fits me so well, and is so ideal for my type of riding, I can't imagine any other frame material coming close to the fit and feel of my current ride.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Pattonn said:


> Weight is an issue where I live:
> 
> 7 Hills of Kirkland - Maps


That looks like fun. 

On my Tarmac. Not so much on my Secteur.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

FTR said:


> I have already said it is not more expensive.
> And I am 83kg. My CF bike was no stiffer than any of my ti bikes despite others telling me how stiff their bike that was the same was.


Yes you said it. Does not make it so. 

You cannot shape titanium. There is only so much you can do with it. Technology lets designers play more with carbon and yes it is more affordable.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

How can it not be more expensive but more affordable?
More available maybe.


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