# Ti Frame: Moots Vmoots RSL or Litespeed Archon?



## roadbike_moron (Sep 22, 2007)

I considering going Ti. What's the consensus on Litespeed vs Moots?


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## shaochieh (Apr 19, 2002)

Any thoughts on Lynskyey?


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

roadbike_moron said:


> I considering going Ti. What's the consensus on Litespeed vs Moots?


Both make great bikes, but I prefer Moots. This does not mean they are better.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Top of the line from either of those companies is going to be great. I have a Lynskey Helix and could not be more pleased with it. The Moots RSL looks really interesting with the BB30, although I find the standard BB on my Helix is plenty stiff.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

Look at them side by side and let me know what you think. That's what it came down to when I made my decision between the two.


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## shapeofthings (Sep 12, 2008)

Totally subjective since I am basing it on aesthetics, but the Moots RSL is one of the sexiest looking bikes out there.


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## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

roadbike_moron said:


> I considering going Ti. What's the consensus on Litespeed vs Moots?


If resale is part of the equation, Moots hands down.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

You can read my rant about Litespeed vs. Moots here.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1744585#post1744585

I expected a bunch of Lynskey fans to try to sway you to their side, and I doubt they're finished in your thread.

I hope you're not coming on the board to ask what $4K+ frame to buy without test riding either one. Although, I admit I just bought a Calfee bamboo frame without having test ridden it, because there wasn't one available anywhere near me to ride. I did hear that they'd take the frame back if I didn't like it, so it wasn't too risky.

Now I'm starting to reconsider titanium frames and components after seeing how energy intensive and environmentally unfriendly the process of making it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsdRo5jvnXo

This is just the process of making pure titanium. This doesn't include the process of extracting aluminum and vanadium, making an alloy with titanium, and making the tubes used in frames. Then there's the cutting of the tubes, which is hard on saw blades. The only things green about titanium are that you don't have to paint it and it's very durable. I sometimes wonder what happened to all the titanium bikes manufactured and how many usable frames are in landfills.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I think people buying titanium should make an informed decision.


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

skepticman said:


> Now I'm starting to reconsider titanium frames and components after seeing how energy intensive and environmentally unfriendly the process of making it is.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsdRo5jvnXo
> 
> ...


And here is some of the information you need to make that decision.

The raw carbon cost of the 3Al2.5V alloy used in making Ti bike frames is around 25 kg CO2 / kg. 6Al4V is higher due to the higher vanadium content (vanadium is one of the most carbon intensive metals out there). The cost of drawing the tubing is comparatively small, the cost of cutting and mitreing is even smaller. The cost of welding is highly dependent on specifics such as your local utilities - here in southern Australia it's quite high because we are on filthy coal power - and on how "meticulous" the welder is. Double pass welds obviously cost more energy than single pass etc etc.

The largest cost here is actually the offcut from mitreing and the material removed in the "butting" process - to make a standard Ti frame you need to start with about 2 kg of tubing and fittings. The offcuts are recyclable but most of what is removed during the grinding that Ti makers use to "butt" their tubes is unrecoverable TiO2.

All in all the carbon footprint of a typical Ti frame comes out around 50 - 60 kg CO2. That's the equivalent of burning about 7 gallons of gasoline (25 litres of petrol). 

Yes it's higher than carbon fibre and aluminium and much much higher than steel, but in the scheme of things all these costs are trivial. 

BTW if your bamboo was airfreighted from Asia, you're not being as green as you think. Air transport is incredibly carbon intensive.


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## 251 (Nov 2, 2009)

I can't comment on the road-specific virtues of these builders, but if you're looking at Moots, I suggest also look at Eriksen. When I replaced my hardtail MTB, I was looking at Moots and Eriksen and am very happy with my Eriksen. Not only is the frame great, but also the design/building process along with talking to Kent and the others at the Eriksen shop.

Oh, and this forum needs more photos.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

You can really carry the analysis of the energy consumed pretty far if you consider the fuel used to truck or fly the pure titanium to another plant where it's made into 3/2.5 alloy, the energy needed to make argon gas and truck it from the plant to a local distributor and then truck the cylinders to the bike manufacturer, the energy to make all the saw blades that wear out quickly machining the titanium, and so on. You could even include the manufacture and shipping of the welding and machining equipment itself. And the chemical waste generated by the plants that make all these things.

I know bamboo is far from green. The frame has metal inserts for the seat tube, head tube and bottom bracket, and has titanium dropouts. There is also the curing process of smoking and drying the tubes. The epoxy for the joints. The urethane or tung oil or whatever it's finished with. And freight for the tubes from Taiwan.

Buying just about anything new is going to generate waste and consume energy and resources. But if everyone stopped buying things, the economy would collapse. Making wise and informed choices is the best we can do.

Apologies to the OP for drifting off topic.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

And by the way, your 2600.00 (retail price) bamboo bike is saturated with satin polyurethane. Not great for the lungs. 

Buy carbon, ti, steel, or bamboo because you like the frame. Beats driving a car to the golf course.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

I've had a Litespeed classic for 10 years and a slew of other "second" bikes too. They have all come and gone, the Litespeed stays. It's my pedaling soul-mate. Obviously, the Litespeed gets my vote (I'd get the Icon myself) but if you're looking for the "traditional" ti ride, the Moots is probably closer to that. The Archon's tube sizes and shaping are going to make it ride more like "Super aluminum" (read: stiff with slightly better ride quality) than most ti.


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## ThaFurnace (Nov 16, 2005)

Not sure how this turned into a green discussion, but the biggest favor you could do the earth is to keep your existing bike instead of buying a new one. That being said, I'd take the RSL .


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

skepticman said:


> You can read my rant about Litespeed vs. Moots here.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1744585#post1744585
> 
> ...


No a bunch of Lynskey fans won't want to sway him. If he poster wants to ride something sub par its his choice. :aureola:


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Juanmoretime said:


> No a bunch of Lynskey fans won't want to sway him. If he poster wants to ride something sub par its his choice. :aureola:


Noticed you didn't make an attempt to list all the ways in which a Lynskey is superior to a Litespeed or Moots.  

Anyway, the fit and how comfortable you are on the bike are more important than construction quality or business model.

And always remember that a guy on an ancient and heavy steel beater bike can still beat you no matter how nice your bike is. It's almost entirely the rider.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

skepticman said:


> You can read my rant about Litespeed vs. Moots here.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1744585#post1744585
> 
> ...


Ti is a lifetime frame. Figure that into the equation.
When I was shopping for mine I went to a prominent Boulder bike shop. I will never forget what the owner told me. He said if you buy a Ti frame, we'll never see you again. Something that probably can't be said of frames built from "greener" materials.


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## FAST2U (Jun 22, 2003)

*Planet X Ti by Lynskey....Great Price option..*

The new Ti frame from Planet X, and made by Lynskey is a quality made frame at a great price point to consider in Ti. I was looking at their carbon frames after reading a previuos thread and noticed the sweet Ti offerings.


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## nor_cal_rider (Dec 18, 2006)

Having researched the Ti frames, I would go with the Moots. I'm planning on picking one up once the RSL's are available, unless Santa or my family puts a Ti frame under the tree for me.

Go out an ride them and check out the differences "hands on" - not from our recommendations or web photos.

Just my $0.02


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Mootsie said:


> Ti is a lifetime frame. Figure that into the equation.
> When I was shopping for mine I went to a prominent Boulder bike shop. I will never forget what the owner told me. He said if you buy a Ti frame, we'll never see you again. Something that probably can't be said of frames built from "greener" materials.


That is only true to some extent. There are lots of Litespeeds for sale on ebay and the RBR classifieds. I lasted 3 years after buying my Litespeed before I caved in to carbon bike lust. I lasted about 2 years after buying my Moots before I starting looking at carbon and bamboo frames. I'd sell my Litespeed, but I wouldn't get a third of what I paid for it. Lots of people are riding 10+ year old metal and carbon frames, so they are far from disposable. Bamboo is much more durable than carbon. I don't plan to ever sell mine and will have it repaired if it is ever damaged.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

skepticman said:


> Bamboo is much more durable than carbon.


There are some diamonds that may disagree with you...


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

skepticman said:


> Now how about some more on-topic posts, people?


Ti Frame: Moots Vmoots RSL or Litespeed Archon? was the topic I believe. Lynskey and Calfee were originally expatiated on by yourself. 

Moots or Lightspeed? I would go Moots purely on re-sale value and Lightspeed aren't the same company that established the brand. Both are good bikes and at the end of the day the engine is the most important component in a fast bicycle.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

I linked to my post in another thread that has an extensive comparison of the Litespeed and Moots frames that I own. I'd say that is one of the few useful responses in this thread so far.

Hope you're proud of your first two posts on this site. You made a quite a first impression. I'm wondering if you're really another poster who signed up with a new account.Your posts speak a lot more about your own mentality than about mine. Are you done with the personal attacks and ready to start posting on topic or are you trying to get banned?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

skepticman said:


> I linked to my post in another thread that has an extensive comparison of the Litespeed and Moots frames that I own. I'd say that is one of the few useful responses in this thread so far.
> 
> Hope you're proud of your first two posts on this site. You made a quite a first impression. I'm wondering if you're really another poster who signed up with a new account.Your posts speak a lot more about your own mentality than about mine. Are you done with the personal attacks and ready to start posting on topic or are you trying to get banned?


He been rebanned, permanently.


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## armybikerider (Oct 27, 2009)

Forget the brand name....test ride one, talk to the company, get a feel for the customer service, blah blah blah.

I honestly think you'll like whatever you get. I've seen my share of custom Merlins, Lightspeeds, Moots', Blaums, Ericksons, etc. I ended up with a Lynskey R330. I love it!


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## PTV (Nov 16, 2008)

roadbike_moron said:


> I considering going Ti. What's the consensus on Litespeed vs Moots?


MOOTS, MOOTS, MOOTS. Not even close. To hold one is to love one.......
If not Moots go Serrota or Seven. Litespeed just ain't what it used to be.


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## giosblue (Aug 2, 2009)

Why does Litespeed get a bad wrap on here. I have two, a 2006 Tuscany and a 2009 Icon.
Both are fantastic bikes.

What makes Moots and Lynskey better. ?


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## armybikerider (Oct 27, 2009)

I'll tell you what makes one "better" than another.........OPINION!

BTW.....I spoke with a Lynskey rep today via email and he told me that ALL Lynskey frames are welded in their own Chattanooga shop and not farmed out to another company to assemble. 

Dave


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