# Motorized doping bike associated with Fabian Cancellara



## matchmaker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE&feature=player_embedded

I don't know what to think of it, it seems to ridiculous to be true, but it would indeed be an incredible way to cheat.


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## filtersweep

No less ridiculous than taking a crazy, untested combination of drugs, and re-using your own blood, etc.



matchmaker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE&feature=player_embedded
> 
> I don't know what to think of it, it seems to ridiculous to be true, but it would indeed be an incredible way to cheat.


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## Wookiebiker

I agree...It seems to be a crazy way to cheat, but in this day and age...nothing would surprise me. However, looking at those accelerations when they played them it was amazing to see him pull away like that while seated, no out of the saddle accelerations at all.

If this is true....WOW, just WOW!!!


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## foofighter

didnt the UCI get told that there are riders using this and that they're looking into it. The video does look pretty unbelievable to see him accelerate seated like that. Fabian is such a cool guy and if it is true that just blows


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## izzyfly

his acceleration (while seated mind you) on the flats and hills was jaw-dropping! Hope it's not true, he's one of the last nice guys (who finishes first!


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## moabbiker

Seems pretty simple to detect for top finishers. Have one of those airport xray machines hooked up, put live video stream at the finish line where all spectators are at, so anyone caught gets ridiculed, insulted, and maybe even attacked by outraged fans (rightly so).


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## MG537

matchmaker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE&feature=player_embedded
> 
> I don't know what to think of it, it seems to ridiculous to be true, but it would indeed be an incredible way to cheat.


Your title should've been:Motorized bike associated with Fabian Cancellara brought to you by You Tube.

Seriously at this point seems pretty far fetched, doesn't mean it would surprise me if this turned out to be true. Cyclists have already tried all kinds of invasive drugs, why not this? However Cancellara has displayed this kind of acceleration in the past. In his 2006 PR win he just rode Leif Hoste, I believe it was, off his wheel in a similar fashion.
Also at E3 Prijs this year he was alone up front with Flecha and Boonen and just timed his acceleration perfectly to win that race. Far lesser crowds at that race which would increase the risk of his two opponents hearing the mechanism kick in.

I would also suspect that the Saxo Bank mechanics would want to help the Schlecks take in at least one win at the Ardennes, which they didn't.

One last comment. I noticed someone say that Fabian is/seems like a nice guy. Well nice or bad guy has nothing to do with doping, chemical, mechanical or otherwise. Tyler Hamilton was and probably still is a nice guy. We all know that story, don't we?


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## rydbyk

Wow...hope that is fake, but seems very possible with a battery that can stay charged and do that much work....hmm?

Cancelara did stay seated for nearly the entire race...kinda strange. He was asked about that post race too..


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## PlatyPius

The battery life isn't really an issue, because you'd only need to use the motor (not engine, as they translated) a couple of times in a race to achieve the desired result. Road cycling is about tactics as well as speed/endurance. How demoralizing would it be to see your opponent effortlessly pull away from you?

All of the parts required for this already exist, as was shown in the video. The motor only has to turn the cranks, so the motor's power is multiplied by the gear choices just as a rider's is. A human puts out what? 1-1.5 horsepower at the most (1 hp = 745-ish watts)? 1/2 horsepower mini electric motors are available. You wouldn't want the motor to do all of the driving; you would want it to be an "assist". A "free" 325 watts of power would definitely help you pull away from your competitors.


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## Don Duende

Very interesting video. Is it an expose or a hoax? The way he pulled away from Boonen is remarkable.

I would not put just Cancellara under the microscope, because of Bjarne Riis' past history. The fact that the video displays a prototype indicates there are probably more units in existence. Does Ritchie Porte or the Schlecks have them? 

Where can I get one? I need that kind of extra acceleration, too.


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## atimido

moabbiker said:


> Seems pretty simple to detect for top finishers. Have one of those airport xray machines hooked up, put live video stream at the finish line where all spectators are at, so anyone caught gets ridiculed, insulted, and maybe even attacked by outraged fans (rightly so).


A bike change towards the end of the race would replace the "dirty" bike with a "clean" one. The rider would just need to claim a tire puncture...:idea:


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## Nimitz

moabbiker said:


> Seems pretty simple to detect for top finishers. Have one of those airport xray machines hooked up, put live video stream at the finish line where all spectators are at, so anyone caught gets ridiculed, insulted, and maybe even attacked by outraged fans (rightly so).


and when they change back to the normal bike?

Chad


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## Nimitz

atimido said:


> A bike change towards the end of the race would replace the "dirty" bike with a "clean" one. The rider would just need to claim a tire puncture...:idea:


and didn't fabian have bike chances at both races? 

Chad


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## MG537

Don Duende said:


> Very interesting video. Is it an expose or a hoax? The way he pulled away from Boonen is remarkable.
> 
> I would not put just Cancellara under the microscope, because of Bjarne Riis' past history. The fact that the video displays a prototype indicates there are probably more units in existence. Does Ritchie Porte or the Schlecks have them?
> 
> Where can I get one? I need that kind of extra acceleration, too.


Like I said a little further above. Andy Schleck was there with the leaders at the final climb up the Mur de Huy. If there was ever a time time to use such a contraption it would've been there. Unless eventual winner Cadel Evans also had one.


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## atimido

Another viewpoint...

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/05/did-cancellara-use-illegal-motor-power.html


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## iliveonnitro

atimido said:


> Another viewpoint...
> 
> http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/05/did-cancellara-use-illegal-motor-power.html


This.


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## rydbyk

PlatyPius said:


> The battery life isn't really an issue, because you'd only need to use the motor (not engine, as they translated) a couple of times in a race to achieve the desired result. Road cycling is about tactics as well as speed/endurance. How demoralizing would it be to see your opponent effortlessly pull away from you?
> 
> All of the parts required for this already exist, as was shown in the video. The motor only has to turn the cranks, so the motor's power is multiplied by the gear choices just as a rider's is. A human puts out what? 1-1.5 horsepower at the most (1 hp = 745-ish watts)? 1/2 horsepower mini electric motors are available. You wouldn't want the motor to do all of the driving; you would want it to be an "assist". A "free" 325 watts of power would definitely help you pull away from your competitors.



Actually, it appears as though the battery output is one of the main talking points when analyzing the practicality of this mechanism in a pro tour race. When I questioned whether or not the tiny hidden in seat tube battery could "do that much work", I was implying that a small battery hidden away in a seat tube would most likely not produce that much power. 

*Maybe they did re-work the battery and shove it into the seat tube. Also, maybe they figured out a way to silence the "buzz" that the motor makes also..who knows?*


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## PlatyPius

rydbyk said:


> Actually, it appears as though the battery output is one of the main talking points when analyzing the practicality of this mechanism in a pro tour race. When I questioned whether or not the tiny hidden in seat tube battery could "do that much work", I was implying that a small battery hidden away in a seat tube would most likely not produce that much power.
> 
> *Maybe they did re-work the battery and shove it into the seat tube. Also, maybe they figured out a way to silence the "buzz" that the motor makes also..who knows?*


Considering the sound level at the typical bike race, I don't think they need to worry about the sound the motor makes...


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## rydbyk

PlatyPius said:


> Considering the sound level at the typical bike race, I don't think they need to worry about the sound the motor makes...


Uhh...it sounds like a buzz saw...pretty sure we would all hear that if we were standing in a crowd of cheering fans within feet of the guy using it...

I was totally able to hear Lance's disc wheel as he screamed past cheering fans back in 2001 TDF....just sayin'.

If I was on Cancellara's rear wheel and all of a sudden a screaming motor sound came from his bike, I might be a little bit suspicious.

It is loud L O U D. Even the people on the dirt trail are startled by it as the man "pedals" past them....funny actually.


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## vandalbob

I so hope the pros (especially Cancellara as he's one of my faves) aren't using a motor to cheat. Maybe it's just best to put my head back in the sand?


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## rydbyk

vandalbob said:


> I so hope the pros (especially Cancellara as he's one of my faves) aren't using a motor to cheat. Maybe it's just best to put my head back in the sand?



No kidding....sometimes ignorance IS bliss...as they say.


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## PlatyPius

rydbyk said:


> No kidding....sometimes ignorance IS bliss...as they say.


Kinda like when primitive people thought that guys who could move metal (magnets) and had powders that produced bangs and smoke were Wizards, or at the very least possessed by the devil...

Reality is so much more boring than magick.


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## moabbiker

atimido said:


> A bike change towards the end of the race would replace the "dirty" bike with a "clean" one. The rider would just need to claim a tire puncture...:idea:


Just RFID tag all the bikes with a permanent adhesive to the frame. Race directors can monitor which bikes are on the field and have a cumulative list pulled at the end of the race for the top finishers. Non-compliant teams can simply be ejected from the race immediately.


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## rocco

Wookiebiker said:


> I agree...It seems to be a crazy way to cheat, but in this day and age...nothing would surprise me. However, looking at those accelerations when they played them it was amazing to see him pull away like that while seated, no out of the saddle accelerations at all.
> 
> If this is true....WOW, just WOW!!!



What I noticed in the video is where he makes his first attack in PR you'll see that initially he's out of the saddle (starting at 3:34) then he reseats himself and then makes his spectacular acceleration away from the front of the group (starting at 3:44) at much more explosively rate than when he was previously out of the saddle.


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## chocy

Oh please...

I am not saying it may not happen. But what they show makes no engineering sense. You will have to have beefed up seatpost to withstand that kind of torque. Plus it would really waste more of your energy when it is not running than helping while its battery lasts.

All these contraptions usually sound great in theory but never really is in reality.


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## 55x11

chocy said:


> Oh please...
> 
> I am not saying it may not happen. But what they show makes no engineering sense. You will have to have beefed up seatpost to withstand that kind of torque. Plus it would really waste more of your energy when it is not running than helping while its battery lasts.
> 
> All these contraptions usually sound great in theory but never really is in reality.


I dunno. 4 pounds of extra weight (and they can make bikes well under UCI limit) for an extra 200 Wts of assist for a full hour?


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## 55x11

matchmaker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE&feature=player_embedded
> 
> I don't know what to think of it, it seems to ridiculous to be true, but it would indeed be an incredible way to cheat.


When motorized doping was first mentioned a few weeks ago I thought it was a joke. Now I think the story has potential. Especially since Fabian does appear to be doing strange manipulations right before launching his attacks.

I also wonder about this old twitter from LA:
http://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/statuses/14340247877

"@mickrogers Motorized doping clearly. Spartacus, care to comment?"

Why did LA chose to ask Spartacus to comment on motorized doping? Mere coincidence, or does he know something we don't?


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## rubbersoul

What's really weird is that Lance referenced this in a twitter (tweet) about a week ago or so where he asked what Sparticus i.e. Cancellara thought of it? I thought it wasd odd when I read it originally. Now the allegation and Lance's apparent reference to it is super weird.


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## chocy

It looks to me he his flicking his Sram shifter before launching his attack. 55X11. yes the mechanism may be only 4 lbs. (although that means he was riding 11lbs bike that can withstand infamous P-R cobbles) something like that would need extra structural support at the seatpost. (meaning added weight of the frame) It would be virtually impossible to make something like that fit without having structural reinforcement not showing externally. 

I am not saying such tech is not possible but it is quite hard to argue that making such device to be unnoticeable at International level pro-cycling event is very very difficult


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## clm2206

matchmaker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE&feature=player_embedded
> 
> I don't know what to think of it, it seems to ridiculous to be true, but it would indeed be an incredible way to cheat.


This is the original version, in Italian, much better resolution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0NXGTKnwGY&feature=player_embedded


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## clm2206

If Cassani says something, he is for sure positive about that. Remember who begun to reveal Rasmussen real training activities.


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## rydbyk

Hmm...the motor on the road bike at the very beginning makes very little noise that I can hear.

All of the other ones sound ridiculously obvious. This makes me think it would be easy to hide.

NOTE: When Cancellara pulls away, it reminds me of those PowerAde commercials where the people do freakishly athletic things like kick a football 200 yds...


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## rubbersoul

After carefully watching the youtube video, it does seem suspect. Its incredible how effortlessly he accelerates fromt he other riders without a discernable change in facial expression (i.e. grimacing etc to signify added exertion) Also it does appear he is pressing on his brake hood in a way which is different than normal shifting of sram.

Crazy!


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## foofighter

and if you think this was flicked on with the crowds yelling and screaming it would easily get drowned out


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## rubbersoul

chocy said:


> It looks to me he his flicking his Sram shifter before launching his attack. 55X11. yes the mechanism may be only 4 lbs. (although that means he was riding 11lbs bike that can withstand infamous P-R cobbles) something like that would need extra structural support at the seatpost. (meaning added weight of the frame) It would be virtually impossible to make something like that fit without having structural reinforcement not showing externally.
> 
> I am not saying such tech is not possible but it is quite hard to argue that making such device to be unnoticeable at International level pro-cycling event is very very difficult


I think the paris reoubaix bikes are often 1 - 2 pounds over the UCI minimum weight anyway. With that in mind, the bike weight could be in the 13 lb range + the assumed 4 lb electric motor / battery. 

If this is true, I wouldn't know whether to laugh at how ingenious / devious it is, or throw all my cycling gear into the dumpter in disgust.
________
Volcano digit


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## foofighter

at this point call me jaded but it's just a matter of time if someone/team wants to win it bad enough they'll do what it takes. with electric motor/battery tech going the way it is a LIon battery can be light and made into any shape and size, look at your iPhone.

we'd only be kidding ourselves if we didnt think they didnt have this


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## moabbiker

What's Greg Lemond's position on motorized doping?


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## Gatorback

Its starting to hit cycling news sites:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lefevere-takes-mechanical-doping-seriously


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## jlandry

It seems obvious when Fabien effortlessly climbs away from Boonen. Boonen is struggling like an amateur as Fab just sits and rides away. It's almost comical.


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## PlatyPius

Require all bikes in UCI-sanctioned events to be made of smaller diameter steel tubing. There won't be room for a motor, and they'll get back the "tradition" they long for.


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## baker921

How much? I want one for my pub bike


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## JohnHenry

Total weirdness.

I am not sure what to think...
But a couple of times it looks like Spartacus is trying to keep up with his cranks. Sort of like spinning down a steep hill on a Fixie. I may try and watch the video again and pull out the time stamps.


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## Coolhand

_Completely_ implausible. 

But, the Giro and ToC are over, and the TdF is a month away- so we need *something* to amuse us. . . .


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## JM714

Now I know why those ShimaNo bikes are so good.


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## g29er

I like how it says "We don't accuse anybody of this" but it clearly implicates Cancellara.


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## dave2pvd

I think this is pure comedy. Just isn't happening.

BUT: if it were to be implemented, you would not necessarily hear any sound. High quality gearmotors can be almost silent.


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## Nimitz

dave2pvd said:


> I think this is pure comedy. Just isn't happening.
> 
> BUT: if it were to be implemented, you would not necessarily hear any sound. High quality gearmotors can be almost silent.


why isn't it happening?

stranger things have been done before...

Chad


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## PlatyPius

I almost WANT it to be true now, just to prove wrong all of those who say "Impossible!" "Not happening!"


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## dave2pvd

Nimitz said:


> why isn't it happening?
> 
> stranger things have been done before...
> 
> Chad


Just an opinion, but I think such an overt form of doping is WAY too risky. One whisper and you're busted. It's not like the evidence dissipates over time or you can take a masking agent to hide it.

I do think you could implement this in a way that would be invisible without investigation. The frame is structurally strong in that area. Not sure that you'd need any extra lay-ups to handle the modest torque output. The gearmotor assembly could be very quiet. You wouldn't need wiring (controls), but if used, it could be ran parallel/inside a shifter cable.

Also, I think the reason Cancellara appears to effortlessly roll away from his opposition in each instance, is because they have blown, and he has not. Simple as that.


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## jpdigital

moabbiker said:


> What's Greg Lemond's position on motorized doping?



Any combination of these:


:nonod: :eek6: :frown2: :17: :idea:


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## jpdigital

*Call in Jamie & Adam...*



PlatyPius said:


> I almost WANT it to be true now, just to prove wrong all of those who say "Impossible!" "Not happening!"


Sounds like somebody should contact MythBusters.


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## Red Sox Junkie

This seems pretty implausable. With most forms of doping, the team/managers can say "shocking!" when someone gets busted. If someone gets busted for the motor, it is obvious the mechanics and team management are involved. This would be pretty brazen, but I guess it's possible.


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## BunnV

*It's noisy! (Gruber Assit)*






Plus, it requires a big battery pack in a seat bag.


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## Bocephus Jones II

Nothing would surprise me anymore.


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## Nimitz

BunnV said:


> Plus, it requires a big battery pack in a seat bag.


did you not watch the video of the 1st one? nearly silent.

why couldn't you put the battery in the seat tube as well?

Chad


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## Bocephus Jones II

Nimitz said:


> did you not watch the video of the 1st one? nearly silent.
> 
> why couldn't you put the battery in the seat tube as well?
> 
> Chad


I'm sure you could put a smaller battery into the seattube...Cancellara would only need it for a couple accellerations per race...it's not like it'd need to last very long.


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## Nimitz

Bocephus Jones II said:


> I'm sure you could put a smaller battery into the seattube...Cancellara would only need it for a couple accellerations per race...it's not like it'd need to last very long.


exactly...I think this is very possible tech wise all they would need is a few accelerations before the other rider cracked.

can I stick my head back in the sand ?  

Chad


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## Bocephus Jones II

Nimitz said:


> exactly...I think this is very possible tech wise all they would need is a few accelerations before the other rider cracked.
> 
> can I stick my head back in the sand ?
> 
> Chad


All you'd need is a high power battery like they use in electric scooters and such--it might only have a burn time of 5 minutes tops at that kind of output, but the sudden acceleration would totally demoralize your opponent. Then all you need to do is fake a flat and change bikes and you finish with a clean bike.


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## Opus51569

And as for the additional weight, there are bikes now that start out so light they require additional weight to meet the UCI standard. It's possible to install a system like this in an uber-light bike and have it come out just about right.

All we need is one good (non-injury) pile-up on the road where somebody's cranks continue to turn on their own...


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## Nimitz

Bocephus Jones II said:


> All you'd need is a high power battery like they use in electric scooters and such--it might only have a burn time of 5 minutes tops at that kind of output, but the sudden acceleration would totally demoralize your opponent. Then all you need to do is fake a flat and change bikes and you finish with a clean bike.


hell I almost think some of the electric RC car batteries would work really well considering they can power those things 100mph

5000mah is exactly how many watts? the battery packs weigh 750 grams...

all depends on the draw of the motor for run time.

Chad


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## JohnHenry

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Nothing would surprise me anymore.


THIS.


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## chocy

5000 mah is a 5Ah so assuming the battery is 12V it would be 60Wh at best. if it is 24V it would be 120Wh. Those RC cars weigh nothing (2kg or less or so and we are taking about 75kg person and 7kg bike on top of that)


not only that you would be adding quite a bit of mecahnical drag when the motor is not running (when motor is turned when not on it works like a generator which creates electro magnetic drag.) unless you have a clutch and that means more mechanical parts and complications. 

What ll this means is that it is worth more trouble than good. It would be fine for recreational non-racers who can afford to put in extra effort at times for little boost here and there when riding significantly less than 100 miles or so of condition which is not an unpredictable cobble road race situation.

seriously people,

I know people love conspiracy theories and if physical implausibility does not convince people, then think about this also. This implicates not one person but the whole team. (Manger, Mechanic and the rider etc.) This means that entire Saxo Bank team is in on it and it really would be stpid for a team as prominant as Saxo bank to risk it all just in case Cancellera doesn't have the legs that day. It just doesn't make sense.

Like I said earlier this "gadget" really will not serve the purpose.


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## Bocephus Jones II

chocy said:


> 5000 mah is a 5Ah so assuming the battery is 12V it would be 60Wh at best. if it is 24V it would be 120Wh. Those RC cars weigh nothing (2kg or less or so and we are taking about 75kg person and 7kg bike on top of that)
> 
> 
> not only that you would be adding quite a bit of mecahnical drag when the motor is not running (when motor is turned when not on it works like a generator which creates electro magnetic drag.) unless you have a clutch and that means more mechanical parts and complications.
> 
> What ll this means is that it is worth more trouble than good. It would be fine for recreational non-racers who can afford to put in extra effort at times for little boost here and there when riding significantly less than 100 miles or so of unpredictable cobble road race situation.
> 
> seriously people,
> 
> I know people love conspiracy theories and if physical implausibility does not convince people, then think about this also. This implicates not one person but the whole team. (Manger, Mechanic and the rider etc.) This means that entire Saxo Bank team is in on it and it really would be stpid for a team as prominant as Saxo bank to risk it all just in case Cancellera doesn't have the legs that day. It just doesn't make sense.
> 
> Like I said earlier this "gadget" really will not serve the purpose.


Guessing you'd need 24v for that application. And you wouldn't be using it as a sole source of power, just as a boost when needed--similar to someone pushing you from behind on a climb.


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## chocy

Yes you may get the boost at some moments but like I said, you would be putting more effort overall to not only carry extra weight but also mechanical drag from gearing and electro magnetic drag from the motor. You WILL end up wasting more energy with one not running most of the time than do without one all together.

BTW 24V 5000mah battery weight hefty 3.7 lbs alone without casing.


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## rydbyk

Would be interesting to see a pile up where one of the bike's cranks continue to turn while on ground...

I am pretty sure that would make a SpotsCenter highlight.


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## Bocephus Jones II

chocy said:


> Yes you may get the boost at some moments but like I said, you would be putting more effort overall to not only carry extra weight but also mechanical drag from gearing and electro magnetic drag from the motor. You WILL end up wasting more energy with one not running most of the time than do without one all together.
> 
> BTW 24V 5000mah battery weight hefty 3.7 lbs alone without casing.


check this motor:

https://alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=5664&Desc=glow&tab=3


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## rydbyk

chocy said:


> Yes you may get the boost at some moments but like I said, you would be putting more effort overall to not only carry extra weight but also mechanical drag from gearing and electro magnetic drag from the motor. You WILL end up wasting more energy with one not running most of the time than do without one all together.
> 
> BTW 24V 5000mah battery weight hefty 3.7 lbs alone without casing.



It is possible to create a bike that is abt. 3 lbs under regulation most likely, so adding 3 lb battery etc would actually make the bike the legal weight.... Maybe the gearing can disengage when not activated, eliminating any drag?

Note: Seems like Cancellara's natural power would "out-pedal" the power of the motor on the flats at high speeds rendering it ineffective?? It seems like his own legs would override the power of the motor. At what speed would the motor be "neutral" so to speak..? The people in the video are all pedaling at slow speeds...


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## mendo

I think it's important to remember that someone can "make it look easy," remain smooth and supple on the bike, while putting in a massive effort at the same time.


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## Nimitz

chocy said:


> Yes you may get the boost at some moments but like I said, you would be putting more effort overall to not only carry extra weight but also mechanical drag from gearing and electro magnetic drag from the motor. You WILL end up wasting more energy with one not running most of the time than do without one all together.
> 
> BTW 24V 5000mah battery weight hefty 3.7 lbs alone without casing.


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6239

22.2V weighs 750 grams. 2 of those weigh 3 pounds an extra 240ish watts would definitely be beneficial.

it didn't look like there was a whole lot of extra "drag" in the example video...

this is easily possible...but would a team go to the risks of doing this? my gut says yes like Bo said nothing surprises me anymore.

Chad


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## harlond

55x11 said:


> When motorized doping was first mentioned a few weeks ago I thought it was a joke. Now I think the story has potential. Especially since Fabian does appear to be doing strange manipulations right before launching his attacks.
> 
> I also wonder about this old twitter from LA:
> http://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/statuses/14340247877
> 
> "@mickrogers Motorized doping clearly. Spartacus, care to comment?"
> 
> Why did LA chose to ask Spartacus to comment on motorized doping? Mere coincidence, or does he know something we don't?


LA's tweet followed publication of an article on this subject by cyclingnews.com. Humor is why LA mentioned Fabian. Not coincidence, but not indicative of much of anything.

Also, I don't expect to prevail in this, but I wish people would stop using the term "motarized doping" and call this by the better and more accurate term-cheating. It's cheating or even motarized cheating, not doping.


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## jlandry

Mot*o*rized


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## dave2pvd

chocy said:


> Yes you may get the boost at some moments but like I said,
> *you would be putting more effort overall to not only carry extra weight* but also
> *mechanical drag from gearing and electro magnetic drag from the motor*.
> *You WILL end up wasting more energy with one not running most of the time than do without one all together.*


No, no and no.

The extra weight of carrying the device is a moot point thanks to the UCI mandated 6.8Kg minimum.

The motor could/would be completely disengaged from the BB axle when not in use. So, no drag. Call it a clutch, throwout bearing, whatever. The gearhead would be a reduction gear. Back driving it while it's not in use would take a lot of effort. So disengaging the device is a must.

To another poster's point: The motor's watts would add to the rider's. no be 'out-pedaled' by the rider.

I still say it's all BS.


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## dave2pvd

I think the elders of the peloton invented this story for some post-Landisgate light-relief after.

Cancellara and Armstrong are laughing their skinny a$$es off. While reading this thread.


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## Bocephus Jones II

dave2pvd said:


> No, no and no.
> 
> The extra weight of carrying the device is a moot point thanks to the UCI mandated 6.8Kg minimum.
> 
> The motor could/would be completely disengaged from the BB axle when not in use. So, no drag. Call it a clutch, throwout bearing, whatever. The gearhead would be a reduction gear. Back driving it while it's not in use would take a lot of effort. So disengaging the device is a must.
> 
> To another poster's point: The motor's watts would add to the rider's. no be 'out-pedaled' by the rider.
> 
> I still say it's all BS.


possible?, yes. probable? nah.


----------



## chocy

That is my point.

if the gear doesn't disengage there will be a drag even though it may not be a significant amount more like aero vs non-aero wheel difference.But why would you add that kind of disadvantage for hours just to get extra jolt for a few min. cycling is all about minimizing effort, not adding. with possible malfunctions on a shaky cobble stone for such mechanical device it really doesn'tmake sense. The system gets very complex quickly so it is NOT really worth it. 

I agree that if your soul point is to make this "device" work. Then yes it is possible. but It makes very little sense in context.
So although it is possible to make such mechnism it makes very little sense to use it to cheat at prolevel cycling.


----------



## dave2pvd

chocy said:


> That is my point.
> 
> if the gear doesn't disengage there will be a drag even though it may not be a significant amount more like aero vs non-aero wheel difference.But why would you add that kind of disadvantage for hours just to get extra jolt for a few min. cycling is all about minimizing effort, not adding. with possible malfunctions on a shaky cobble stone for such mechanical device it really doesn'tmake sense. The system gets very complex quickly so it is NOT really worth it.
> 
> I agree that if your soul point is to make this "device" work. Then yes it is possible. but It makes very little sense in context.
> So although it is possible to make such mechnism it makes very little sense to use it to cheat at prolevel cycling.


_What_ is your point?

If this exists in the pro-peloton, the drive pinion HAS to disengage. Try back-driving a reduction gearmotor sometime. It's more than a little drag.

As for 'so complex': I'd view the mechanical aspect of this 'device' as less complex than a SRAM Red shifter. 

I agree with you on this point:



chocy said:


> So although it is possible to make such mechnism it makes very little sense to use it to cheat at prolevel cycling.


Just not for the reasons you state.


----------



## CabDoctor

Didn't Fabian's bike use internal cable routing and bb30. Seems like that would make it a bit more complicated


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

CabDoctor said:


> Didn't Fabian's bike use internal cable routing and bb30. Seems like that would make it a bit more complicated


The whole thing would be damned complicated to start with...I don't think internal cable routing would be impossible to route around assuming you believe that the motor could be rigged in there in the first place.


----------



## waldo425

I don't see it. The evidence and footage seems incredibly thin to me. So is every single strange hand gesture or move going to be torn apart now? I shall withhold judgment until there is some actual evidence.


----------



## CabDoctor

how deep do the rivets go for the braze on mounts for the FD? Could be something else to look at as this could hinder the shaft in seat tube idea. Second, what about heat. Both Lipos and Motors get wicked hot putting out power. An 18v Cordless drill at its peak reaches 350 watts, and think of how hot those get. Would you really risk falling and someone burning their hand on your seatube as they help you back on your bike. That would cause a funny reaction from the spectator helping you back on, and raise a lot of questions when it was posted on youtube.


----------



## baker921

Solved the battery problem. You could use solar energy, with photovoltaic fabric woven into the Lycra jerseys http://solarfabrics.com/ And the leading research is being done at a *Swiss* university. :wink:


----------



## aliensporebomb

Despite the possibilities of it being POSSIBLE the actual probability is low-ish.

I haven't watched the video yet but the actual motor needs to somehow be built into
off the shelf hubs.

The weight such a system would add would seem to really be counterproductive since
it would only be used for dashes out of particular situations not continuous operations.

Still, the idea of an electric tour bike is funny. It would only weigh perhaps 10-15 lbs more
than existing off the shelf bikes.

But I don't see how it could be done in such a way that its existence is concealed.

Hidden buttons? Motor in the seat tube? You'd hear it or a competitor would hear the
high pitched whine of the motor. Thinking....


----------



## rydbyk

aliensporebomb said:


> Despite the possibilities of it being POSSIBLE the actual probability is low-ish.
> 
> I haven't watched the video yet but the actual motor needs to somehow be built into
> off the shelf hubs.
> 
> The weight such a system would add would seem to really be counterproductive since
> it would only be used for dashes out of particular situations not continuous operations.
> 
> Still, the idea of an electric tour bike is funny. It would only weigh perhaps 10-15 lbs more
> than existing off the shelf bikes.
> 
> But I don't see how it could be done in such a way that its existence is concealed.
> 
> Hidden buttons? Motor in the seat tube? You'd hear it or a competitor would hear the
> high pitched whine of the motor. Thinking....




*You clearly did neither of the following:*
1. Read the majority of the posts here on this thread
2. Watch the darn video

Why would you waste your time or ours with such a long post not having done 1 or 2 from above?? Do you really think we are all that stupid and we needed you to come along with some "clarity"? Wow.


----------



## MG537

jpdigital said:


> Sounds like somebody should contact MythBusters.


Now there's an episode I would watch.


----------



## aliensporebomb

Okay, watched the darn video Rydbyk. Ouch dude! I should have watched before I typed. A picture is worth...lots.

Holy crap! I must be thinking "1986" or something because it's obvious stuff has gotten lots more lighter and smaller and it is definetely possible to hide such a setup.

The video of Cancellara riding away seated like he was bored or something and everyone else just falling in his wake is amazing.

I think such a setup would be fun if you bonked on a super long ride but the concealment shows "hm, doping = too dangerous. Why not this?"

So, do bikes get inspected close-up under x-ray machines prior to racing? 

I am only familiar with the triathlon world where they want to make sure your tires are pumped up and you don't have any potential showstoppers of the conventional nature -

Not "hmmm, tires ok, wheels ok, race number ok, hm, power assist electric motor okay...."

It would seem to be that the video shows deliberate concealment of such a setup.


----------



## cheddarlove

*Hell brought to heel.*

This was from Graham Watson's column in Cycle Sport magazines July issue.

"Such was the power and longevity of Cancellara's ride in Paris-Roubaix, that instead of getting a mere handful of images of the race winner near the end, as usual, my archive contains 15-20 images of the Swiss star.
Despite that, it is hard to find one single image that illustrates Cancellara's extraordinary effort--it was as if it was too easy for him! No sweat, no drama, no agonized expressions--not even straining muscles.
The images portray a metronomic performance that belies definition.
Only near the end, just as Cancellara cornered on the Carrefour de l' Arbre, did his face unveil a grimace. And even then it may have been because of the nervous strain of taking that diabolical corner without crashing.
Imagery is everything in sport, and as magnificent as Cancellara's back-to-back victories were, I for one wanted a lot more out of that day in 'Hell'.


----------



## Swish

cheddarlove said:


> This was from Graham Watson's column in Cycle Sport magazines July issue.
> 
> "Such was the power and longevity of Cancellara's ride in Paris-Roubaix, that instead of getting a mere handful of images of the race winner near the end, as usual, my archive contains 15-20 images of the Swiss star.
> Despite that, it is hard to find one single image that illustrates Cancellara's extraordinary effort--it was as if it was too easy for him! No sweat, no drama, no agonized expressions--not even straining muscles.
> The images portray a metronomic performance that belies definition.
> Only near the end, just as Cancellara cornered on the Carrefour de l' Arbre, did his face unveil a grimace. And even then it may have been because of the nervous strain of taking that diabolical corner without crashing.
> Imagery is everything in sport, and as magnificent as Cancellara's back-to-back victories were, I for one wanted a lot more out of that day in 'Hell'.


It's all circumstancial, people are scrambling to connect dots that are very likely not related.

I would be shocked if this was true.
Instead of doping, which uses the human body as a medium, a motor is the most direct pathway: a new level of cheating.


----------



## crashtestdummy

Think this is possible, too risky though, like Sammy Sosa and the "exhibition bat" If a crash were to happen the frame may come apart exposing the parts. He really does accelerate away very easily though, but he is the best time trialist around. Hoping this isn't happening, doping is bad enough.


----------



## rubbersoul

baker921 said:


> Solved the battery problem. You could use solar energy, with photovoltaic fabric woven into the Lycra jerseys http://solarfabrics.com/ And the leading research is being done at a *Swiss* university. :wink:


Yes, ingenious! In the meantime, until the technology is perfected, I wonder whether Radio Shack sells the appropriate lithium ion battery? Gives new meaning to powered by the Shack!
________
thai girl Cams


----------



## rubbersoul

cheddarlove said:


> This was from Graham Watson's column in Cycle Sport magazines July issue.
> 
> "Such was the power and longevity of Cancellara's ride in Paris-Roubaix, that instead of getting a mere handful of images of the race winner near the end, as usual, my archive contains 15-20 images of the Swiss star.
> Despite that, it is hard to find one single image that illustrates Cancellara's extraordinary effort--it was as if it was too easy for him! No sweat, no drama, no agonized expressions--not even straining muscles.
> The images portray a metronomic performance that belies definition.
> Only near the end, just as Cancellara cornered on the Carrefour de l' Arbre, did his face unveil a grimace. And even then it may have been because of the nervous strain of taking that diabolical corner without crashing.
> Imagery is everything in sport, and as magnificent as Cancellara's back-to-back victories were, I for one wanted a lot more out of that day in 'Hell'.



I would agree based on what I saw of the youtube video. It looks way too easy for such an incredible acceleration. If true, you would have to believe Riiis is involved. Isn't he well known to be fanatic about new technology?


----------



## Gatorback

I think it is comical that some are suggesting this is not possible. I have no idea whether this stuff is junk or real, but anyone who believes it is not POSSIBLE is crazy. And with all the doping scandals, despite the tightened controls of the biological passport, it would be even crazier to think there are some professional cyclists out there who WOULDN'T try this if they thought there was even the slimmest chance in hell they could get away with it. 

Remember that we are not talking about what a couple of toy car enthusiasts who are bike mechanics could put together at home with a $200 motor bought at a hobby shop. We are talking about a multi-million dollar sport where unfortunately lots of top athletes are getting busted all the time trying to beat the system by doping. 

Does anyone really believe people with money couldn't put together a motor for a bike to add a few dozen watts in the last hour of a tough race? I bet you could go to the engineering department at any major university and a group of engineering students with the right tools and some modest funds could put this together without much trouble. They'd solve all the debates about why it can't be done by getting it done and probably within a short time frame. 

I've always been one to see the good side of cycling, and still do, but it really amazes me how many elite cyclists are still trying to beat the system despite getting caught at higher and higher rates. I watched both those races on TV and was in awe by Cancellara's performances. Hopefully we were really watching some of the greatest performances in the Classics history and not the biggest cheating scandal cycling has seen since I've been following it.


----------



## baker921

*[B]Why I think this is a spoof[/B]*

...... is because there is no evidence of the motor working under load.
A bicycle is driven by torque and very roughly a 120lb rider can generate 70 ft lbs through a 7" crank. Say 100ft lbs for a 170lb guy. The electric motor turning on a 1" BB spindle is like having to pedal on 1/2" cranks! Therefore to achieve a 1% increase ie 1ft lb the motor would need to generate 24 ft lbs of torque which is the sort of figure you might get from a 400cc motor bike engine. My maths might be shaky but if you want to do your own research grip the output shaft between finger and thumb on a small electric motor such such as a fan then turn it on. The motor will not be able break your grip.


----------



## Kaleo

Oh Hell No.. Not Spartacus! wth! Wouldn't there be a third line coming out of the brake lever? I couldn't detect one, I suppose it could be concealed in the shift cable? After watching him seemingly effortlessly blow Boonen away just like that was kinda startling, is he really just that strong? Say it aint so...


----------



## aliensporebomb

I was thinking: sprint motors for RC cars can indeed do high torque but I'd imagine the weight would be a little much. 

Speaking as an owner of such a car I can get maybe 15 minutes max on a charge but that's old ni-cad technology, not new lipoly. 

And the fastest speeds are in the first 8 minutes of the battery. 

But, I'd wager if this is high dollar high stakes competitive type cycling someone has the
latest batteries and the latest motors and the latest tech and this is possible and probable.

If it's been available since 2004 and it's only coming to light now maybe we should look at other stellar tour performances and watch their cadence real carefully and their hands.

I'm not naive as sporting fraud as been around as long as sport - I just would hate to see other methods - I can think of a few - helium in the tires? Turn the whole wheel into an electromagnetic drive system?


----------



## sometimerider

Nimitz said:


> 5000mah is exactly how many watts? the battery packs weigh 750 grams...


That's about 5 watts for an hour - not very useful.

But there's lots of tubing available to hold more batteries.


----------



## aliensporebomb

I took a look here too:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...alleries_110824?album=32&gallery=294&pid=4300

Here's a close-up of the crank on his bike.

It's an SRM power meter. That would make adding a motor a lot more complicated IMO.


----------



## Sherpa23

This would be pretty easy to pull off with Di2. Not only is there abundant wiring and visible battery packs but don't forget about the adjustment modules, remote shifters, and such. Any of those could be the activation button.

I can't really comment on the whole FC thing. The whole thing seems so far fetched when you think about the practicality and the risks, etc. However, one of those attacks in the P-R clip really lends itself to the motorized bike theory. But still, I don't know how it could be done and not attract the ire of competitors, directors, and such. I don't think it would be kept quiet. As everyone says, nothing surprises me any more. Yet, I can't quite bring myself to think it could be true.


----------



## davidka

I have worked with the system they show in the video. Having used it I can say it would be of no use to a racer. It does disengage, with a draggy one way bearing clutch that a racer would work against for the oter 4+ hours of the race. It is pretty loud, you would hear it in a pack for sure.

FC did change bikes in Flanders, before he made his race winning attack, then he did not change again. They would've caught it in tech at the end of the race. Besides, NOBODY rides a bike at minimum weight in Roubaix (FC had 28c tires for one), certainly not one below minimum to offset the weight of a system like this.

Face it, the guy is such a freak some don't want to believe it.


----------



## 55x11

baker921 said:


> ...... is because there is no evidence of the motor working under load.
> A bicycle is driven by torque and very roughly a 120lb rider can generate 70 ft lbs through a 7" crank. Say 100ft lbs for a 170lb guy. The electric motor turning on a 1" BB spindle is like having to pedal on 1/2" cranks! Therefore to achieve a 1% increase ie 1ft lb the motor would need to generate 24 ft lbs of torque which is the sort of figure you might get from a 400cc motor bike engine. My maths might be shaky but if you want to do your own research grip the output shaft between finger and thumb on a small electric motor such such as a fan then turn it on. The motor will not be able break your grip.


The idea is not to generate a high torque at zero rpm against strong resistance - the idea is to assist the rider by providing a bit of extra power at 100 rpm.


----------



## rubbersoul

I hope its not true. Cancellara to me seemed to be one of the hard core pure talents avec class. For the sport to move to this level of cheating would be heartbreaking.


----------



## rydbyk

*Direct from Gruber Assist*

"The psychological effect alone, of being able to switch the bicycle motor on and off at any time, increases performance levels and makes cycling even more fun, especially in a group." -Gruber Assist


*Translation:*
"The psychological effect this can have on an opponent is crushing. Being able to switch the bicycle motor on and off at any time, increases "performance levels" and makes your cycling even more profitable. It is especially effective in distancing yourself from a group." 
:wink:


----------



## 55x11

matchmaker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE&feature=player_embedded
> 
> I don't know what to think of it, it seems to ridiculous to be true, but it would indeed be an incredible way to cheat.


to summarize - I think most of us agree there is not much solid proof that Cancellara was using any electrical help, even though the video is interesting.

however, I am also not convinced by arguments people make about how this is implausible.
Keep in mind that the theory here is not that some rider simply takes the commercially available system AS IS and applies it to their bikes - it's that they can develop their own technology that satisfies their needs.

The power/energy seems to be in the right ballpark. Numbers range anywhere from 60 Wh, to 135 to 200 Wh - somewhat within the range of a standard 9-cell laptop battery - but I will gladly take 60 extra Watts for a full hour, or, better yet, 300 extra Watts for just 12 minutes, if I could. That will be more than enough for a top rider to pull away from the field, the races are often decided by just a few percent increases in power output for short periods of time. Remember - the rider must still be in top form and must pedal very hard, not coast, and anything battery supplies is just extra "help".

The arguments that the electrical motor is too noisy - they don't have to be, if designed properly, many electric/hybrid cars are completely silent.

I am not convinced why the bike needs to be reinforced. And the gearing mechanism can be made to engage and disengage, there is no fundamental problem that would prevent this from working out. With the amount of R&D efforts and $ that goes into other aspects of cycling, these issues are something that can be worked out very quickly.


----------



## rydbyk

55x11 said:


> With the amount of R&D efforts and $ that goes into other aspects of cycling, these issues are something that can be worked out very quickly.


+1:thumbsup: 

Now do I think (what would I bet on if money were involved) that this really happened...my mind is thinking 70% "nope"...30% "yep".

I will be 100% disgusted if this is legitimate and really actually happened with Cancellara...one of my favorite riders.


----------



## moabbiker

Lithium polymer batteries can be shaped to practically any custom made need, so it's definitely possible for one to be concealed inside the frame somewhere as well.


----------



## jpdigital

rydbyk said:


> Would be interesting to see a pile up where one of the bike's cranks continue to turn while on ground...
> 
> I am pretty sure that would make a SpotsCenter highlight.


That would be like the "Janet Jackson w/ Justin Timberlake Superbowl Moment" of cycling... well, nah not quite, but still be pretty jaw-dropping/eye-popping.


----------



## davidka

Remember, these bike companies copple together dropouts to lengthen their wheelbases for Paris Roubaix, they can't/won't even do special frames and making frames is actually their area of expertise.

Developing an internal electric power system is far harder than you think. A silent, efficient electric motor system is way outside the capabilities of team bicycle mechanics. This is a late April fool's joke.


----------



## Wookiebiker

As far as the noise goes...the motor would be nearly silent and unless you were right up against it, you likely wouldn't hear anything from the motor at all. The gears however....they may or may not make noise.

I know this from years messing around and racing RC cars. The high pitched whine you hear with those comes from the gears not the motor. If you hear a belt driven RC electric car the high pitched whine is eliminated and you hear the car bouncing around...not the motor or drive system.

The power needed for something like this could easily be put together with one of the newer high torque, low RPM brushless motors and the power system is pretty easy to design and implement. It would not be hard to put a system such as that shown together and into a frame...including the batteries, which could easily be put into the seat tube.

As for the gears...that's nothing any competent machinist couldn't do to a bottom bracket...regardless of whether it's a BB30, regular bottom bracket or any other solid spindle BB you have.

I'm not saying that this system is being used...but if it is, it could easily be designed to be silent and not heard by anybody, especially over the pedaling of the bike, the noise the rider makes and the crowd on the side of the road.

The biggest problem with a system such as this would be heat. The speed control...assuming they use one, would get very hot because that's where the majority of the heat would come from. Next would be the motor, but if they use a larger brushless motor it might not get as hot, but still could be very hot (hot enough to melt the plastic holding the carbon fiber together). If they found a way to control the heat...it wouldn't be hard to do this system at all...quite ingenious actually.


----------



## PlatyPius

davidka said:


> Remember, these bike companies copple together dropouts to lengthen their wheelbases for Paris Roubaix, they can't/won't even do special frames and making frames is actually their area of expertise.
> 
> Developing an internal electric power system is far harder than you think.* A silent, efficient electric motor system is way outside the capabilities of team bicycle mechanics.* This is a late April fool's joke.


Really? You think so?

I'm a bike mechanic; not a team one (except for DePauw), but still a bike mechanic.

I've also worked as an HP computer repair technician, a web designer, a web developer, an auto mechanic, and numerous other things.

I'm pretty sure I could assemble/design/install a near-silent, efficient motor system in a bicycle, given enough money.

Being a bike mechanic doesn't automatically make one an idiot.


----------



## aliensporebomb

Someone else had a good point: why would Fabian C adopt a system that duplicates the effort he's already capable of producing?

But, I could see this being popular with guys my age (forties) when they bonk on long rides.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

aliensporebomb said:


> Someone else had a good point: why would Fabian C adopt a system that duplicates the effort he's already capable of producing?
> 
> But, I could see this being popular with guys my age (forties) when they bonk on long rides.


The motor compliments his power not provides it entirely. I can't see such a system providing the sole power for a bike. Basically he gets a 100-200w boost to what he already has in his legs.


----------



## Wookiebiker

Bocephus Jones II said:


> The motor compliments his power not provides it entirely. I can't see such a system providing the sole power for a bike. Basically he gets a 100-200w boost to what he already has in his legs.


Some people are having a very hard time grasping this concept.

To explain it:

Fabien may be able to sustain 500 watts for one hour in a TT. A device such as this would allow him to continue with his 500 watts, but add an additional 100 watts - 200 watts giving him a total output of 600 watts - 700 watts for the period the battery was able to last.

Basically giving him a huge advantage over his competitors.

Since bikes are geared the motor would give him extra power to push a larger gear, or to push the same gear at a higher RPM, depending on how it was set up.


----------



## rydbyk

Wookiebiker said:


> Some people are having a very hard time grasping this concept.
> 
> To explain it:
> 
> Fabien may be able to sustain 500 watts for one hour in a TT. A device such as this would allow him to continue with his 500 watts, but add an additional 100 watts - 200 watts giving him a total output of 600 watts - 700 watts for the period the battery was able to last.
> 
> Basically giving him a huge advantage over his competitors.
> 
> Since bikes are geared the motor would give him extra power to push a larger gear, or to push the same gear at a higher RPM, depending on how it was set up.



As long as that motor can spin faster than the bottom bracket is being powered or "spun" by the rider, I believe it will be a benefit to the rider.

A rider pedaling at warp speed down hill in a low gear might "override" the the additional speed the motor might offer the rider IMO.....forcing the motor to move faster than it can on its own perhaps?


----------



## waldo425

PlatyPius said:


> Really? You think so?
> 
> I'm a bike mechanic; not a team one (except for DePauw), but still a bike mechanic.
> 
> I've also worked as an HP computer repair technician, a web designer, a web developer, an auto mechanic, and numerous other things.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I could assemble/design/install a near-silent, efficient motor system in a bicycle, given enough money.
> 
> Being a bike mechanic doesn't automatically make one an idiot.



+1 

You don't need to be a mechanical genius to put something like that together. Seems rather straight forward and simple.


----------



## Wookiebiker

rydbyk said:


> As long as that motor can spin faster than the bottom bracket is being powered or "spun" by the rider, I believe it will be a benefit to the rider.
> 
> A rider pedaling at warp speed down hill in a low gear might "override" the the additional speed the motor might offer the rider IMO.....forcing the motor to move faster than it can on its own perhaps?


On a course like Paris Roubaix the downhill speed wouldn't be a factor...and on larger downhill’s it should have a disengagement/clutch device that separates the gear from the BB allowing free movement and any speed by the rider...so that wouldn't be an issue either.

Regardless...this system wouldn't be used for an entire race as the battery power wouldn't be sustainable...it's more of a 5 - 10 minute power boost when needed to make a break away.

In the case of Cancellera he could use it to put a minute or so gap on the field...then go into TT mode and hold them off the rest of the way. The big thing with him is he needs the power to get the gap, which he doesn't have sprint power like Boonen to do so. I remember reading his max wattage is only in the 1200 watt range...so dropping somebody like Boonen on Paris Roubaix would be difficult if he just sat in the draft of Cancellera. Also if that is his max sprint wattage...the acceleration he makes in both races is beyond incredible.

I suppose in the end...that's what makes this "Plausible" but very, very unlikely.


----------



## rydbyk

Wookiebiker said:


> On a course like Paris Roubaix the downhill speed wouldn't be a factor...and on larger downhill’s it should have a disengagement/clutch device that separates the gear from the BB allowing free movement and any speed by the rider...so that wouldn't be an issue either.
> 
> Regardless...this system wouldn't be used for an entire race as the battery power wouldn't be sustainable...it's more of a 5 - 10 minute power boost when needed to make a break away.
> 
> In the case of Cancellera he could use it to put a minute or so gap on the field...then go into TT mode and hold them off the rest of the way. The big thing with him is he needs the power to get the gap, which he doesn't have sprint power like Boonen to do so. I remember reading his max wattage is only in the 1200 watt range...so dropping somebody like Boonen on Paris Roubaix would be difficult if he just sat in the draft of Cancellera. Also if that is his max sprint wattage...the acceleration he makes in both races is beyond incredible.
> 
> I suppose in the end...that's what makes this "Plausible" but very, very unlikely.


Yep yep...got it.


----------



## Francis Cebedo

Ha! Brilliant points so far.

Two years ago, on the Montebello hillclimb (6 miles, 2000 feet) race in Norcal, the best climber, Clark got beat by 5 minutes by a decent climber.
Clark: you beat me pretty good.
Rider: I was in the electric category. I had a motor.
Clark: Where?
Rider: In my front hub.

The motor improved his Montebello time by about 10 minutes! On flattish races, electric motors are even more of an advantage because the extra weight is not a big deal.

Here's the electric bike on the right and the Cervelo electric bike on the left.
<img src="https://ttlens.net/cm/albums/08-LKHC-1-Montebello/normal_IMG_5149-08-10-04_10-01-43.jpg">

That was two years ago. The electric power technology is much better now and I knew someone was going to cheat soon.They need to check this on road and mtb races.

Brushless motors and lipo batteries are getting more efficient every single month!! Here is motor I have for one of my rc cars. It weighs 1.8 lbs and generates 6 horsepower with gobs of torque and goes for 12 minutes on this battery at full power.

Oh, at full power, this motor is pretty silent, like a mosquito. It's the drivetrain that makes noise, some more than others.

fc


----------



## davidka

PlatyPius said:


> Really? You think so?
> 
> I'm a bike mechanic; not a team one (except for DePauw), but still a bike mechanic.
> 
> I've also worked as an HP computer repair technician, a web designer, a web developer, an auto mechanic, and numerous other things.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I could assemble/design/install a near-silent, efficient motor system in a bicycle, given enough money.
> 
> Being a bike mechanic doesn't automatically make one an idiot.



I never implied that bike mechanics are idiots. I have worked as a bike mechanic too. You are just seriously underestimating how difficult this would be to do.


----------



## mangotreat0808

francois said:


> Ha! Brilliant points so far.
> 
> Two years ago, on the Montebello hillclimb (6 miles, 2000 feet) race in Norcal, the best climber, Clark got beat by 5 minutes by a decent climber.
> Clark: you beat me pretty good.
> Rider: I was in the electric category. I had a motor.
> Clark: Where?
> Rider: In my front hub.
> 
> The motor improved his Montebello time by about 10 minutes! On flattish races, electric motors are even more of an advantage because the extra weight is not a big deal.
> 
> Here's the electric bike on the right and the Cervelo electric bike on the left.
> <image snipped>
> 
> That was two years ago.
> fc


Interesting seeing the front hub electric motor ( I didn't even 'see' it - had to be pointed out, "Cervelo electric bike on the left"). Looked just like a regular Cervelo but with that oversized, almost uncanny front hub. With advances in technology in lithium batteries, rotor/motor technologies, it is conceivable to have an integrated, elongated unit with motor and battery but with a much smaller footprint, not unlike the one in the youtube video shown in the beginning of this thread. Up next, electronic spring soles in the Air Nike's.


----------



## 55x11

francois said:


> Ha! Brilliant points so far.
> 
> Two years ago, on the Montebello hillclimb (6 miles, 2000 feet) race in Norcal, the best climber, Clark got beat by 5 minutes by a decent climber.
> Clark: you beat me pretty good.
> Rider: I was in the electric category. I had a motor.
> Clark: Where?
> Rider: In my front hub.
> 
> The motor improved his Montebello time by about 10 minutes! On flattish races, electric motors are even more of an advantage because the extra weight is not a big deal.
> 
> Here's the electric bike on the right and the Cervelo electric bike on the left.
> <img src="https://ttlens.net/cm/albums/08-LKHC-1-Montebello/normal_IMG_5149-08-10-04_10-01-43.jpg">
> 
> That was two years ago. The electric power technology is much better now and I knew someone was going to cheat soon.They need to check this on road and mtb races.
> 
> Brushless motors and lipo batteries are getting more efficient every single month!! Here is motor I have for one of my rc cars. It weighs 1.8 lbs and generates 6 horsepower with gobs of torque and goes for 12 minutes on this battery at full power.
> 
> Oh, at full power, this motor is pretty silent, like a mosquito. It's the drivetrain that makes noise, some more than others.
> 
> fc


Francois - [sarcasm] what you say is clearly impossible and will never work because:
a) the front wheel and the fork would require too much bulking up and reinforncement
b) the motor will be too heavy
c) the motor will be noisy
d) the motor and gearing will be too inefficient and impossible to engage or disengage properly
e) bike mechanics in professional teams are incompetent and have no knowledge, skills, financial or technological resources to pull it off
f) it could at best provide 200 extra watts for an hour - not nearly enough 
g) even if it is possible, and it does provide substantial competitive advantage, the professional athletes would not cheat because they are honorable, honest and trustworthy human beings who ALWAYS play by the rules.
[/sarcasm]


----------



## jsrscbr

This is the first i've heard of the seat tube batt/motor combo. Seems very possible. Bought this bosch lith-ion 12v impact driver nearly 3 years ago. The power this little guy puts out is unreal and the battery lasts and lasts. You could hide maybe 4/5 or more batteries inside a bikes tubes. Making the little motor run quite could be a challenge but not impossible.


----------



## whambat

Watching that video reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy videos. People would see the pentagon being hit by a plane and swear they saw a missile hit the building not a plane. To me FC is clearly shifting, but plenty of people see it at the end of the video and go "yeah, he's hitting the power button." It seems more the power of suggestion that is fooling people here. I'm not saying that a power unit is not possible, but that video of FC is not proving anything.


----------



## izzyfly

whambat said:


> Watching that video reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy videos. People would see the pentagon being hit by a plane and swear they saw a missile hit the building not a plane. To me FC is clearly shifting, but plenty of people see it at the end of the video and go "yeah, he's hitting the power button." It seems more the power of suggestion that is fooling people here. I'm not saying that a power unit is not possible, but that video of FC is not proving anything.


But you have to weigh that with the given context, where, in this case, he (Fabian) was able to break away from Boonen, a pure sprinter, and climb up the wall with an 18% gradient and attack while seated. The guy's known for his TT skills, not for outbursts in sprinting, or climbing which he surprisingly showcased. But the eeriness of how he accomplished these feats against a multiple Roubaix title holder (Tom Boonen), while seated, without much facial grimace - when even the best of climbers like Contador, Schleck, and Horner would show a hint of pain while pedaling up any given wall: Our man Spartacus remained serenely stoic. This is why we still "see" a potential use of a complex motor because of the reasons stated, and because such contraptions (see latest post above) exist. When you compared this to the 9/11 video, you have to realize that after the initial shock to our nation, the horror, and countless lives lost, those who held to the 9/11 missile conspiracy immediately dismissed their initial impression, and gave way to the reality of terrorist attacks via commercial airplanes. Two totally different circumstances, which do not compare in the least bit.


----------



## David Loving

This isn't "doping". Do we need a section for just plain cheating, too?


----------



## foofighter

the one shot overhead from the heli when he does his acceleration it almost looked unreal like one of that one specialized viral ad that had a guy riding his bike on the freeway being chased by cops.

he easily just accelerated from the pack i mean i'd love to see his data log for that particular instance


----------



## Francis Cebedo

This is an amazing analysis here:

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/06/anatomy-of-cancellara-attack.html

The math says he needed to do 1450 watts to accelerate 7.4 mph faster than the lead group.

On another note, he looks like he's softpedaling and ran out of gears during the attack.
Check 6:15 marker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7xjsPqHg3o&feature=player_embedded#!

Then then he solos 46 km to the finish and gains more time??

It will also be telling to see what his other results are after these two races and on the upcoming races. He should win every race now right?

fc


----------



## moabbiker

David Loving said:


> This isn't "doping". Do we need a section for just plain cheating, too?


Same thing isn't it? Biological or mechanical... doesn't seem to matter either way when the intention is to improve your chances at winning with an unfair intentional advantage with deceit in mind.


----------



## den bakker

moabbiker said:


> Same thing isn't it? Biological or mechanical... doesn't seem to matter either way when the intention is to improve your chances at winning with an unfair intentional advantage with deceit in mind.


right. So now illegal TT bikes should be discussed in the doping forum as well.


----------



## natedg200202

I can't figure out this thread. Is everyone in on the joke in saying this is plausible? 

At any rate, the video in question is flawed. Every time the bikes are shown being "powered" by the internal motor (on the workstand) the entire rear wheel is not shown, only the bottom. What we don't see is some sort of power is applied to the top of the wheel to give the illusion that it is self powered. 

I'm picturing some guy with a drill and a polishing wheel attached. Camera drops, guy puts the wheel to the top of the tire.


----------



## whambat

FC is a talented TT specialist and is used to laying down huge amounts of power while seated. He may not be a great climber, but he is better than Boonen at it, and once he gets a good gap and they are both on their own, he is just better at that kind of effort. As far as the Roubaix, he rode a great tactical race. He hardley ever led, in comparison to Boonen who constantly was chasing down attacks and spent a lot of time pulling for everyone else. Before FC attacked I was thinking Boonen was just killing himself and was going to get dropped, no one has that many hard efforts in them. He got himself caught hanging on the back trying to recover. With all respect to everyone else in that group, it was down to Boonen and FC with the best form for the classics. Boonen did not play a good tactical game.


----------



## rydbyk

*"marketing stunt by gruber assist"*

could it be? i keep going back and forth on this. while i definitely think it is possible to create and use such a mechanism, i just don't want to believe the our sport has declined to this state.


----------



## Wookiebiker

natedg200202 said:


> I can't figure out this thread. Is everyone in on the joke in saying this is plausible?
> 
> At any rate, the video in question is flawed. Every time the bikes are shown being "powered" by the internal motor (on the workstand) the entire rear wheel is not shown, only the bottom. What we don't see is some sort of power is applied to the top of the wheel to give the illusion that it is self powered.
> 
> I'm picturing some guy with a drill and a polishing wheel attached. Camera drops, guy puts the wheel to the top of the tire.


The simple fact is this scenario is "VERY PLAUSIBLE" because the technology is there to do it with. It could be completly hidden, powered and pretty much silent.

What I think most people agree on though is it's "VERY UNLIKELY" that it happened...though the video evidence does raise some interesting questions when you watch it in the context of having a battery powered motor on the bike and the fact that there are large quantities of PED's going through the peloton, so cheating seems to be somewhat part of the game with the guys.

As for the video...they are showing the cranks because that's where the motor is. If the cranks are spinning, chances are the rear wheel will be spinning since it's chain driven. If it was in the hub, they would be showing that.


----------



## loubnc

Just like every new drug that gets exposed with all the speculation/publicity, you just know some idiot at the Pro level is going to try this now.


----------



## robdamanii

Video is stupid.

They talk of Cancellara at roubaix...at 4:43 they show him "tapping the button."

If you watch the shift lever carefully, you see the SRAM paddle move slightly inward and then spring back out. On Red levers, the throw really is that short. And if you watch he ups his cadence slightly and (since he's in a higher gear) rides away from the other rider.


----------



## cmdrpiffle

Landis is now saying that he 'used the performance enhancing motor' for a lot of his career. Although admitting he had the motor, he is also claiming that battery technology wasn't nearly advanced enough in 2006 to allow him to have used that motor. He's still claiming the 06 TDF was won 'clean'.

just sayin


----------



## jsrscbr

den bakker said:


> right. So now illegal TT bikes should be discussed in the doping forum as well.


That's what I was thinking. We need to have a forum for everything cycling+illegal related.
We could call it the Outlaw Forum.


----------



## 55x11

rydbyk said:


> could it be? i keep going back and forth on this. while i definitely think it is possible to create and use such a mechanism, i just don't want to believe the our sport has declined to this state.


Indeed. Injecting yourself with steroids, EPO and months-old centrifuged blood supposedly kept refrigerated in some doctor's office - that may or may not belong to some other person is all within the realm of "normal". But electrical motor on a bike is just plain weird.


----------



## cembranel

*How many batterys...*

they can put inside a TT frame?

And the noise of the disc wheels? Does not "kill" the engine noise?


----------



## aliensporebomb

So now my question: would it be possible to put helium or nitrogen in road bike tires for unfair levels of less rolling resistance or lighten up the bike? I mean, all this is sounding crazy but who knows what people have tried?

That Cervelo with the monster front hub is interesting, but it's a dead giveaway. I bet they've miniaturized it
by now though.


----------



## jsrscbr

*In the year 2000*

I just can't get my head around this. Pro cyclists under multi million dollar contracts using
concealed electric motors to cheat? Next thing someone's gonna say they've got a power meter inside their hub or on a crank. Shoot, maybe someday they might might even make electronic shifters and derailers.


----------



## moabbiker

den bakker said:


> right. So now illegal TT bikes should be discussed in the doping forum as well.


Such as having a concealed electric motor with the rider passing off his acceleration and velocity as natural talent? You bet.


----------



## spookyload

rydbyk said:


> Uhh...it sounds like a buzz saw...pretty sure we would all hear that if we were standing in a crowd of cheering fans within feet of the guy using it...
> 
> I was totally able to hear Lance's disc wheel as he screamed past cheering fans back in 2001 TDF....just sayin'.
> 
> If I was on Cancellara's rear wheel and all of a sudden a screaming motor sound came from his bike, I might be a little bit suspicious.
> 
> It is loud L O U D. Even the people on the dirt trail are startled by it as the man "pedals" past them....funny actually.


Don't forget he was the race leader. There was already complaints about the camera moto being too close too him for much of the race. Do you really think you could discern a buzzing motor over the sound of cheering crowds and a motorcycle?


----------



## LostViking

"Team Saxo Bank rejects all insinuations and accusations that have been made in the media regarding Fabian Cancellara's alleged use of an electric motor in his bike. Team Saxo Bank is strongly opposed to any form of cheating and there is absolutely no truth to this story. There was not and never has been a motor in any Team Saxo Bank rider's bike.

In principle, Team Saxo Bank does not comment on rumours. However, with the irresponsible distribution of this story and related video, a myth has been developed that needs to be addressed. We will not participate in the furthering of this story and find the marketing platform now created for the engine manufacturer completely out of place and unwarranted. We are confident that the majority of those people who have come across this video see if for exactly what it is, a creative, amateur artist's attempt to express a purely hypothetical idea that has not basis of fact or truth. It is a work of fiction, disguised as documentary.

We regret if this has led anyone to view Team Saxo Bank in a negative way and we are deeply offended by the questioning of Fabian Cancellara's integrity, character and abilities. Fabian possesses incredible ability and talent and is a true professional. Fabian has provided Team Saxo Bank and cycling fans the world over with countless memorable victories and tremendous performances. Fabian's victories in Ronde van Vlaanderen and Paris-Roubaix embody everything that is beautiful about our sport, strength, endurance, suffering, passion, drama and teamwork. Fabian's victories are the result of dedication, hard work and sacrifice as well as his unique ability to rise to the occasion when striving to reach his goals. We are confident that the public can see through the nonsense this myth has presented and respect Fabian for what he is. A true Champion.

There will be no further Team comment on this situation as we feel the insinuations do not warrant further time or energy."


----------



## davidka

In case you haven't seen this, a little math demonstrating that a rider of FC's quality is well within his abilities to make these attacks.

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/06/anatomy-of-cancellara-attack.html


----------



## mtbbmet

Gatorback said:


> I think it is comical that some are suggesting this is not possible. I have no idea whether this stuff is junk or real, but anyone who believes it is not POSSIBLE is crazy. And with all the doping scandals, despite the tightened controls of the biological passport, it would be even crazier to think there are some professional cyclists out there who WOULDN'T try this if they thought there was even the slimmest chance in hell they could get away with it.
> 
> Remember that we are not talking about what a couple of toy car enthusiasts who are bike mechanics could put together at home with a $200 motor bought at a hobby shop. We are talking about a multi-million dollar sport where unfortunately lots of top athletes are getting busted all the time trying to beat the system by doping.
> 
> Does anyone really believe people with money couldn't put together a motor for a bike to add a few dozen watts in the last hour of a tough race? I bet you could go to the engineering department at any major university and a group of engineering students with the right tools and some modest funds could put this together without much trouble. They'd solve all the debates about why it can't be done by getting it done and probably within a short time frame.


As someone who works in the electronics industry, and deals with electronic motors and batteries on a daily basis, I have the knowledge and experience to call BS on this whole story. Not possible. Yet. Sure the tech is there to have a motor. But the tech to have it small enough to conceal it is not.
You have to realize that driving a 3kg car is not the same as powering a bike. A small motor like that simply can not put out the amount of power they claim. I could see maybe 50W, but not 200W. Also, very noisy. Despite what the video shows, in person it would be certainly audible even in a race. Where would you put the battery? That motor takes up at least 3/4 of the seat tube leaving not enough volume for a battery big enough to power it. So where else can it go? Down tube? How do you get it in? It would have to be moulded in by Specialized. Which means that they couldn't put a bladder in to make the frame in the first place. It could only be done with tube to tube construction.
Also, how do you hide the switches and wires? PR is the most tech race of the year. 100's of photogs are walking around taking pictures of every bike they see, each one looking for the smallest little tech advance or modification. Someone WOULD have seen it.
Then we get to the drag that the motor would have when pedaling when it's not turned on. The benefit of the motor would be moot when you are dealing with the drag of it for the first six hours of a race. To have the motor disengeage when not in use would add a ton of other issues to the system and would make it at least 1/3 to 1/2 larger than it currently is.
People seem to think that teams have a ton of money to put this thing together. They don't. Have a look at some race photos. Most teams are using Record as opposed to SR. Do you think it's because Record is better, or because it's cheaper for Campy to provide?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/roubaix-tech-cancellaras-race-winning-rig/115234

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/roubaix-tech-cancellaras-race-winning-rig/115202
There is not as much money in the sport as people think.

And I don't see a hole here.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/roubaix-tech-cancellaras-race-winning-rig/115273
Nor do I see any wires here.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/roubaix-tech-cancellaras-race-winning-rig/115272


----------



## rydbyk

spookyload said:


> Don't forget he was the race leader. There was already complaints about the camera moto being too close too him for much of the race. Do you really think you could discern a buzzing motor over the sound of cheering crowds and a motorcycle?



1. Yes, absolutely. You could easily hear the motor from the mtb video on YouTube. I don't care how many people are cheering.

2. Having said that, I do think it is possible that they made a quieter version that would be difficult, if not impossible, to hear.

3. Again, I doubt the FC actually used the motor. Then again, it is absolutely possible. It is 2010 folks.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

.............


----------



## rydbyk

mtbbmet said:


> As someone who works in the electronics industry, and deals with electronic motors and batteries on a daily basis, I have the knowledge and experience to call BS on this whole story. Not possible. Yet. Sure the tech is there to have a motor. But the tech to have it small enough to conceal it is not.
> You have to realize that driving a 3kg car is not the same as powering a bike. A small motor like that simply can not put out the amount of power they claim. I could see maybe 50W, but not 200W. Also, very noisy. Despite what the video shows, in person it would be certainly audible even in a race. Where would you put the battery? That motor takes up at least 3/4 of the seat tube leaving not enough volume for a battery big enough to power it. So where else can it go? Down tube? How do you get it in? It would have to be moulded in by Specialized. Which means that they couldn't put a bladder in to make the frame in the first place. It could only be done with tube to tube construction.
> Also, how do you hide the switches and wires? PR is the most tech race of the year. 100's of photogs are walking around taking pictures of every bike they see, each one looking for the smallest little tech advance or modification. Someone WOULD have seen it.
> Then we get to the drag that the motor would have when pedaling when it's not turned on. The benefit of the motor would be moot when you are dealing with the drag of it for the first six hours of a race. To have the motor disengeage when not in use would add a ton of other issues to the system and would make it at least 1/3 to 1/2 larger than it currently is.
> People seem to think that teams have a ton of money to put this thing together. They don't. Have a look at some race photos. Most teams are using Record as opposed to SR. Do you think it's because Record is better, or because it's cheaper for Campy to provide?
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/roubaix-tech-cancellaras-race-winning-rig/115234
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/roubaix-tech-cancellaras-race-winning-rig/115202
> There is not as much money in the sport as people think.
> 
> And I don't see a hole here.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/roubaix-tech-cancellaras-race-winning-rig/115273
> Nor do I see any wires here.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/roubaix-tech-cancellaras-race-winning-rig/115272



I am not trying to be disrespectful here, but nearly everything you question has already been addressed by members in this thread.

Your pics, while very clear, do not necessarily prove anything. FC could have been on a different bike than the one pictured. Also, creative cable routing could easily hide wires.


----------



## rydbyk

Bocephus Jones II said:


> .............



I am going to be the first to call BS. We would TOTALLY hear a hampster inside the bike...yes..even over cheering fans. Wait, now IF the hampster was on EPO, would it be able to produce enough wattage to assist the rider, or would the rider have to fight hampster drag?

Poor little guy...no helmet?


----------



## mtbbmet

davidka said:


> Remember, these bike companies copple together dropouts to lengthen their wheelbases for Paris Roubaix, they can't/won't even do special frames and making frames is actually their area of expertise.
> 
> Developing an internal electric power system is far harder than you think. A silent, efficient electric motor system is way outside the capabilities of team bicycle mechanics. This is a late April fool's joke.


This post should end this thread. These guys barely have a high school education, most are former bike shop employees when they were kids. You think that someone like that is going to piece together some amazing tech to power a bike, conceal it, and make it silent? That they are capable of doing something that electronic and power engineers are incapable of doing? This story has no teeth. Given current technology, impossible. In three years, maybe the battery tech will be in line with what this system reqiures. Maybe. But then you still need to find a way to make it silent. And then you need a way to make the drive shaft disengage or put a clutch on the motor.
And there is no switch or wires here. Just sayin.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/108th-paris-roubaix-his/photos/115452


----------



## rydbyk

mtbbmet said:


> This post should end this thread. These guys barely have a high school education, most are former bike shop employees when they were kids. You think that someone like that is going to piece together some amazing tech to power a bike, conceal it, and make it silent? That they are capable of doing something that electronic and power engineers are incapable of doing? This story has no teeth. Given current technology, impossible. In three years, maybe the battery tech will be in line with what this system reqiures. Maybe. But then you still need to find a way to make it silent. And then you need a way to make the drive shaft disengage or put a clutch on the motor.
> And there is no switch or wires here. Just sayin.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/108th-paris-roubaix-his/photos/115452



If you think that they would actually put a bright red button and wires in plain view, you are mistaken sir. The mysterious button would be UNDER the brake hoods, as shown in the video. 

We have "experts" in this thread that say making a motor that is powerful, quiet and can disengage (gears) when not in use is totally possible.

I am not "e-ngineer", but I do think it is possible and I do not think it would cost much.

Again...I doubt FC used such a device at this point in the conversation..


----------



## mtbbmet

PlatyPius said:


> I'm pretty sure I could assemble/design/install a near-silent, efficient motor system in a bicycle, given enough money.


I'm pretty sure you couldn't. Nay, positive you couldn't. 
This is not a matter of just going to Princess Auto and picking up a few bits and bobs. This is designing, engineering, and fabricating compnents that don't currently exists, then finding a way to conceal them, and make them silent. It's not happening.
Those that believe it's possible are grossly underestimating what is involved.


----------



## zero85ZEN

LostViking said:


> "Team Saxo Bank rejects all insinuations and accusations that have been made in the media regarding Fabian Cancellara's alleged use of an electric motor in his bike. Team Saxo Bank is strongly opposed to any form of cheating and there is absolutely no truth to this story. There was not and never has been a motor in any Team Saxo Bank rider's bike.
> 
> In principle, Team Saxo Bank does not comment on rumours. However, with the irresponsible distribution of this story and related video, a myth has been developed that needs to be addressed. We will not participate in the furthering of this story and find the marketing platform now created for the engine manufacturer completely out of place and unwarranted. We are confident that the majority of those people who have come across this video see if for exactly what it is, a creative, amateur artist's attempt to express a purely hypothetical idea that has not basis of fact or truth. It is a work of fiction, disguised as documentary.
> 
> We regret if this has led anyone to view Team Saxo Bank in a negative way and we are deeply offended by the questioning of Fabian Cancellara's integrity, character and abilities. Fabian possesses incredible ability and talent and is a true professional. Fabian has provided Team Saxo Bank and cycling fans the world over with countless memorable victories and tremendous performances. Fabian's victories in Ronde van Vlaanderen and Paris-Roubaix embody everything that is beautiful about our sport, strength, endurance, suffering, passion, drama and teamwork. Fabian's victories are the result of dedication, hard work and sacrifice as well as his unique ability to rise to the occasion when striving to reach his goals. We are confident that the public can see through the nonsense this myth has presented and respect Fabian for what he is. A true Champion.
> 
> There will be no further Team comment on this situation as we feel the insinuations do not warrant further time or energy."


Methinks they doth protest too much!


----------



## rydbyk

mtbbmet said:


> I'm pretty sure you couldn't. Nay, positive you couldn't.
> This is not a matter of just going to Princess Auto and picking up a few bits and bobs. This is designing, engineering, and fabricating compnents that don't currently exists, then finding a way to conceal them, and make them silent. It's not happening.
> Those that believe it's possible are grossly underestimating what is involved.



Beyond the Gruber Assist that is ALREADY ON THE MARKET, what are you saying would be so IMPOSSIBLE?

Noise cancelling?
Disengaging gears?
Battery size?


----------



## mtbbmet

rydbyk said:


> Beyond the Gruber Assist that is ALREADY ON THE MARKET, what are you saying would be so IMPOSSIBLE?
> 
> Noise cancelling?
> Disengaging gears?
> Battery size?


The Gruber is noisy, does not have a disengaging or clutched drive shaft, and has a massive battery. Then you get into the wiring. A typical pro mechanic cannot even find a way to conceal the Di2 wiring, but they can conceal this?


http://www.gruberassist.com/english/product/technology/

The auxiliary drive, with a length of almost 22 cm and 200 watts of power, is permanently connected torque-proof with the drive shaft of the foot pedal through a bevel gear unit; gear changing is still possible. At an optimal pedal frequency of approx. 60 pedal revolutions per minute, the bicycle drive provides the rear wheel with up to 100 watts.
The entire drive unit (motor, transmission, electronic control) weighs no more than 900 g. The LiION Mangan high-performance battery, which fits into a conventional saddlebag, provides you with motor-assisted cycling lasting for min. 45 minutes, depending on how hard you pedal. It weights just 1000 gr., has a charge level indicator and active balancing.
The special design of the drive unit allows it to be built into any bicycle frame with the requisite seat tube internal diameter of 31.6 mm and is therefore not visible on the bicycle – except the on/off switch, which is unobtrusively located at the end of the handlebars.


----------



## StillRiding

mtbbmet said:


> I'm pretty sure you couldn't. Nay, positive you couldn't.
> This is not a matter of just going to Princess Auto and picking up a few bits and bobs. This is designing, engineering, and fabricating compnents that don't currently exists, then finding a way to conceal them, and make them silent. It's not happening.
> Those that believe it's possible are grossly underestimating what is involved.


I have, in the past designed and build small electrical power systems for military style drones. The technology is there, the "bits and bobs" are available, and there are plenty of people with the knowledge and skill necessary to assemble a working system. However, I don't believe that electrical systems have been used or are in serious consideration for ever being used in professional bike racing. Why? Too many people and too big a paper trail would necessarily have to be involved. 

Using a motor assist would be just too hard to keep secret....plus if a rider did it, other members of the pro-peloton would laugh at him. It's one thing to join the club, shave your legs, train your body to extremes, enhance the performance your body can deliver by using drugs, and in general adopt the lifestyle of a pro racer, but using electric assist is totally foreign to that lifestyle and to the philosophy that motivates people to race bikes at any serious level.


----------



## mtbbmet

rydbyk said:


> If you think that they would actually put a bright red button and wires in plain view, you are mistaken sir. The mysterious button would be UNDER the brake hoods, as shown in the video.
> 
> We have "experts" in this thread that say making a motor that is powerful, quiet and can disengage (gears) when not in use is totally possible.
> 
> I am not "e-ngineer", but I do think it is possible and I do not think it would cost much.
> 
> Again...I doubt FC used such a device at this point in the conversation..


I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but you really have no idea what you are talking about regarding this subject. You can think what you want. But as someone who knows a thing or two about this subject not as a hobby, but as a career, I can safely say that this is currently not possible.
Is it possible to fabricate a concealed motor? Yes.
Is it possible to make it silent? Yes. (But do keep in mind how sound resonates within a carbon frame. It dosn't dampen sound like steel does)
Is it possible to make is drag free? Yes.
Is it possible to hide a battery in a frame that is not tube-tube construction? Maybe.
Is it possible to all of the above and be able to conceal it within a bike frame without leaving any trace of it for the scrutinizing media? It sure isn't.
That's all I'm going to say on the subject. I'll leave the rest to the hobby RC "experts".


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## rydbyk

mtbbmet said:


> I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but you really have no idea what you are talking about regarding this subject. You can think what you want. But as someone who knows a thing or two about this subject not as a hobby, but as a career, I can safely say that this is currently not possible.
> Is it possible to fabricate a concealed motor? Yes.
> Is it possible to make it silent? Yes. (But do keep in mind how sound resonates within a carbon frame. It dosn't dampen sound like steel does)
> Is it possible to make is drag free? Yes.
> Is it possible to hide a battery in a frame that is not tube-tube construction? Maybe.
> *Is it possible to all of the above and be able to conceal it within a bike frame without leaving any trace of it for the scrutinizing media? It sure isn't.*That's all I'm going to say on the subject. I'll leave the rest to the hobby RC "experts".




Are you a "media expert" too? What does your experience with electric motors have to do with the media's ability to find cheaters? You simply agreed (after telling me I know nothing about motors) with everything I said about the motor and then continued on *about the media*...????

You tell us, according to your "expertise" that this simply is not possible. Then you go on and explain how it is possible. I am confused here. I feel even MORE confident that it is possible after what you said.


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## Wookiebiker

rydbyk said:


> FC could have been on a different bike than the one pictured. Also, creative cable routing could easily hide wires.


Fabien did not finish on the bike he started on. Not long before he went on his break away he switched bikes due to a flat tire.

If he had a motorized bike...it wasn't made available to the public for pictures, it was in the van waiting to be put on top of the car for the right moment to change bikes. Which means he would have used a normal bike for all but about 50k of the race...not the entire race eliminating the fact that he was carrying a heavy motor and other such devices for the entire race.

I don't know about the Tour of Flanders and whether he made a bike change there, but he might have done so in that race as well.

Sooooo....


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## dave2pvd

mtbbmet said:


> I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but you really have no idea what you are talking about regarding this subject. You can think what you want. But as someone who knows a thing or two about this subject not as a hobby, but as a career, I can safely say that this is currently not possible.
> Is it possible to fabricate a concealed motor? Yes.
> Is it possible to make it silent? Yes. (But do keep in mind how sound resonates within a carbon frame. It dosn't dampen sound like steel does)
> Is it possible to make is drag free? Yes.
> Is it possible to hide a battery in a frame that is not tube-tube construction? Maybe.
> Is it possible to all of the above and be able to conceal it within a bike frame without leaving any trace of it for the scrutinizing media? It sure isn't.
> That's all I'm going to say on the subject. I'll leave the rest to the hobby RC "experts".


I question your credentials to comment on this subject. 

A lot of what you have said can't be done, others, including myself have said can be done. The Gruber Assist alone is 50% of the equation. An expensive servo gearhead driving a one way sprocket clutch solves the transmission part.

As for control wires? As any electronic engineer would know, there exists Bluetooth. It's not just for cellphones.

Specialized claim to build monocoque. They do, but in sections. The BB section is a cluster fabricated with parts of the seattube, chain stays and downtube protruding from it. Joints are made to the other clusters along the length of the tubes. Seriously though, I think this is a red herring. Any drive installation would be inserted down the completed seattube.

FYI: I believe this whole story is nonsense. There are riders in the pro peloton enjoying the fallout though.


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## dave2pvd

mtbbmet said:


> To have the motor disengage ............... would make it at least 1/3 to 1/2 larger than it currently is.


Where did you come up with the above statement? How did you quantify the size increase?


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## rydbyk

*Apparently it is not so crazy then...*

On Wednesday, June 2, the UCI revealed that it will hold a meeting with its experts and bike industry representatives next Monday. (regarding the use of a motor)

-Cycling News June 4, 2010


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## Don Duende

How credible is Davide Cassani ? 
Has he perpetrated hoaxes in the past ?

This would work best/easiest on a Shimano Di2 powered bike.


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## Wookiebiker

rydbyk said:


> On Wednesday, June 2, the UCI revealed that it will hold a meeting with its experts and bike industry representatives next Monday. (regarding the use of a motor)
> 
> -Cycling News June 4, 2010


Here is another link about this issue: 

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news;_ylt=Ato4JKe65eYsL3vPq1NzTEt.grcF?slug=ap-mechanicaldoping


My favorite quote in the article: *The UCI said it had been in contact with former racer Davide Cassani, who claims to have tested a motorized bike that could help a rider cheat. The 49-year-old Cassani said he would be able to finish a classic or a Giro stage with this machine.*


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## sykkeldud

This is interesting, from cyclingnews.com
"Speaking to the British newspaper Telegraph, Boardman said that in theory teams could use cutting-edge technology from Formula 1 to boost the power of any battery-powered motorized system."

"I showed them some of the sophisticated boosting technology now available, mainly from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery."


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## LostViking

*Thank the Lord! Our energy problems are solved!*



sykkeldud said:


> This is interesting, from cyclingnews.com
> "Speaking to the British newspaper Telegraph, Boardman said that in theory teams could use cutting-edge technology from Formula 1 to boost the power of any battery-powered motorized system."
> 
> "I showed them some of the sophisticated boosting technology now available, mainly from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery."


Great stuff! Let's drop all that wasteful research into fuelcells and just get hooked up to AAA batteries! Lance's mobile universe has been saved and we can all sell our stocks in BP and Exxon.

If anyone says they aren't guilty - let's pronounce them guilty cause they claimed they aren't guilty!

This all makes perfect sense to me now. :mad2:


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## crashtestdummy

*Video of Cancellara finishing roubaix*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYyo7dEPvwU

:idea:


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## tkavan01

i do a lot of work with exotic batteries, the article mentioned Li-MnO2 as the source, these are not the highest energy dense batteries available, but are probably able to put out the highest ampere, Lithium-thionyl chloride has the highest energy density available in a cell chemistry right now, but you would need more batteries then you could fit on a bike to pull out the current needed to generate 200 watts continuously.

so if we look at available Lithium-manganese dioxide http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_LM_M_cell_ranges_302_254/Language/en-US/Default.aspx#DL2
you can see a C cell or a 5/4 C cell might fit down the seatpost.
So we take the numbers from the big one it has available 6.7 ampHours at 3.0 volts(to convert to watt hours multiply amphours by voltage), to generate 200 watts for 1 hour you would need 200 / 6.7*3.0 = ~10, so you would need 10 5/4 C cells to generate 200 watts for 1 hour, that is a ton of batteries to try and hide even if you are only targeting a 30 minute output.

I'm not an EE so i may have messed something up in there, but it just doesn't seem likely.


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## dave2pvd

So how about 200W for 30sec? Very useful for breaking an opponent in the late stages of a race.

That's a helluva lot more than doping can give you.


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## rydbyk

dave2pvd said:


> So how about 200W for 30sec? Very useful for breaking an opponent in the late stages of a race.
> 
> That's a helluva lot more than doping can give you.



+1


Or say an additional 50w here and there when needed. Whoa!


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## LostViking

*A "Ton of Batteries"*



tkavan01 said:


> i do a lot of work with exotic batteries, the article mentioned Li-MnO2 as the source, these are not the highest energy dense batteries available, but are probably able to put out the highest ampere, Lithium-thionyl chloride has the highest energy density available in a cell chemistry right now, but you would need more batteries then you could fit on a bike to pull out the current needed to generate 200 watts continuously.
> 
> so if we look at available Lithium-manganese dioxide http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_LM_M_cell_ranges_302_254/Language/en-US/Default.aspx#DL2
> you can see a C cell or a 5/4 C cell might fit down the seatpost.
> So we take the numbers from the big one it has available 6.7 ampHours at 3.0 volts(to convert to watt hours multiply amphours by voltage), to generate 200 watts for 1 hour you would need 200 / 6.7*3.0 = ~10, so you would need 10 5/4 C cells to generate 200 watts for 1 hour, that is a ton of batteries to try and hide even if you are only targeting a 30 minute output.
> 
> I'm not an EE so i may have messed something up in there, but it just doesn't seem likely.


Okay, so you are going to cycle for miles with a "ton of batteries" in order to get a 30 min boost? Give me a break - it's too funny, or would be if it weren't for the fact that so many people are ready to believe anything they hear in connection with doping.


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## rydbyk

LostViking said:


> Okay, so you are going to cycle for miles with a "ton of batteries" in order to get a 30 min boost? Give me a break - it's too funny, or would be if it weren't for the fact that so many people are ready to believe anything they hear in connection with doping.



Simple 2010 power drill batteries are tiny and produce massive torque. I am not sure if you are just trying to get a reaction or what....

It really is not that inconceivable. We have lots of people in this thread who know that you can have fairly small and lightweight batteries that produce sufficient power.

The gruber mechanism itself only weighs 1.8 lbs approx.

Already you have bikes on the market that are illegal to race because they are too lightweight. So...use that bike + battery + motor and there you have it...a bike that weighs the same as your competitors.


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## sykkeldud

Its really not that unbelievable, I think your underestimating todays technology. I see amazing stuff now and then in for example robotics and RC that I wouldnt have believed if i heard it. I think the technology is there, doesnt mather how much watts for how much time. The question is can anyone be willing to take that risk? -In cycling.. possibly. They do a lot of other crazy stuff.
Most of me still wants to believe that some people (Cancellara) are just that good. In another way its kinda ballsy if its true.


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## Italophile

Jeepers, I hope this charge isn't true. But it isn't.

Point #1: Chris Boardman is not an EE. Nor am I, but the best available AAA battery only has about 5 Wh in it, so getting a kilowatt out of it is pointless; one could only get a rapidly declining 20 seconds or so of that output, and it would probably burst into flames in the process!. This tends to back up what tkavan01 posits: there is no available battery pack that can provide enough power for this scheme in a volume small enough and light enough to go undetected.

Point #2: The drive gear of the purported technology would be audible, especially to those experienced ears nearby in the peloton. That Gruber deal is loud!

And my central argument:

Point #3: I noticed something right away when watching Cassani's video of Cancellara. It leaps out at me, though I only have limited experience with video editing.
*In the video, just as Cancellara escapes, I think the video speeds up just a bit, and increasingly so, making his escape seem even more superhuman.
*He shifts to a higher gear in the PR clip, yet his cadence appears to remain initially constant, which could only happen if the video is sped up to compensate, then increases to what appears to me to be an abnormally high cadence as he rides away.
*In the RvV clip, Cancellara speeds up and Boonen does not really slow down on that climb. My memory is that both slowed down, but Boonen the more so, even agonizingly.
*Adding to my suspicion is the Flemish audio track in that video: the pace of the commentary increases in a slightly unnatural way, and the audio breaks up just a bit, which is exactly what happens when one digitally shortens an audio track.

Somebody else try to notice these characteristics in the video, and share with us your own observations. Film editors, do you see what I mean?

This is the version of the video that seems to have the best example of the original audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0NXGTKnwGY&feature=player_embedded


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## LostViking

I am not an engineer, nor have I ever played one on TV.

I did however see the so-called evidence in the video.

I will no longer comment to this thread...at least not until I have stopped laughing!


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## M-theory

Today was a scorcher and I went for a ride. As I was climbing a long hill in low gear, the thought of Cancellara just pushing a button and magically accelerating away from the peloton just zapped me of any strength I had. I wanted to push that button and accelerate up the hill too.

By the time cheating of this sort becomes known to the general public, it is probably already a widespread phenemonon in the pro-ranks; its highly doubtful Cancellara is the only one using this sort of bike. All the teams probably have this sort of technology. In the clips shown, the other riders probably had used up their battery power earlier in the ride. Fabian saved his power boost for the end when it really mattered. So,by my reckoning, FC's victories are still legitimate wins. 

What percentage of the peloton is in on this? I'd hazard a guess of maybe 30-40%.


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## sykkeldud

To you guys who think this is ridiculously unbelievable: I hope your not working in anti-doping. Those guys need to consider anything in the hunt for cheaters.
If you told an indiginous bushman that you could just use EPO and then run after all the antilopes all day long without getting tired, he would hardly believe that. Bad joke, but you get the idea, be open-minded.


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## Francis Cebedo

The truth will come out in the Cancellara incident I hope. One thing for sure is it's changing UCI forever. The rules and testing procedures are changing as we speak. There's articles on Cyclingnews every day about how the officials are not determined to test for this.

As far as the technology, it is there. You only need 100 watts of power for a few minutes to beat a rider of your level. We are waaayyy past that already with brushless motors and lipo batteries.

This is the motor I mentioned in an earlier post. This weighs about 2.5 lbs and generates 6 horsepower for 10 minutes. 6 horsepower is 4500 watts.

Let me mention too that this is pedestrian technology available last year for about $500. There's better stuff now. I think the greatest research right now is occurring in the area of electric motors.

This car weighs about 10 lbs.


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## Ventruck

Hopefully my 2 cents isn't a repeat that I overlooked while skimming posts:

I can't point to a personally honest conclusion, but question and took note of some thing regarding the captured hand movements:

-There's virtually no being phased as if he changed a gear (as most stated). I mean, he's a dedicated Time Trialist and whatnot, but those seated breakaways....they're seated.
-It's ridiculously a fast motion (his hands). Wouldn't say such shifts are impossible, but I wouldn't be see the point doing them that fast.
-I'm no pro, but I found the motion captured in the PR cobbles too weirdly placed/times to be considered a gear change. He was pulling away before that hand motion took place and upon that motion it didn't seem like he was spinning a bigger gear to get away much quicker.

But despite all that, I do see light on the idea he's put himself into form for these races. I'm just lost with the list of speculations I made.The first scenario speculated in the Bufalino video looked pretty human to me, and I haven't seen a still photo of Cancellara doing the alleged action to see what/where he was pushing on clearly.


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## davidka

francois said:


> The truth will come out in the Cancellara incident I hope. One thing for sure is it's changing UCI forever. The rules and testing procedures are changing as we speak. There's articles on Cyclingnews every day about how the officials are not determined to test for this.
> 
> As far as the technology, it is there. You only need 100 watts of power for a few minutes to beat a rider of your level. We are waaayyy past that already with brushless motors and lipo batteries.
> 
> This is the motor I mentioned in an earlier post. This weighs about 2.5 lbs and generates 6 horsepower for 10 minutes. 6 horsepower is 4500 watts.
> 
> Let me mention too that this is pedestrian technology available last year for about $500. There's better stuff now. I think the greatest research right now is occurring in the area of electric motors.


Nice car. Now attempt to put the power system in the bike, driving the bb spindle (which turns 70-120 rpm, not 30,000). Make it 100% reliable so that it will work after being pounded for 50k of cobblestones and completely conceal it so there's not even 1mm of exposed wire showing anywhere. Also make sure that it has zero parisitic drag when not in use and it must be completely silent when both on and off. Shimano is a giant corporation with manufacturing capability that blows away everyone else in the bicycle industry and Di2 is the best they could come up with in terms of integrating an electric system into a bicycle. It has exposed wires, components that are difficult to locate, etc. Do you really think a couple of race mechanics in a basement can do better?


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## den bakker

davidka said:


> Shimano is a giant corporation with manufacturing capability that blows away everyone else in the bicycle industry and Di2 is the best they could come up with in terms of integrating an electric system into a bicycle. It has exposed wires, components that are difficult to locate, etc. Do you really think a couple of race mechanics in a basement can do better?


We are talking about the company that had cables hanging freely a decade after everyone else managed to make concealed cables right? Lets just say aesthetics is not on the top of their line of priorities.


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## Wookiebiker

den bakker said:


> We are talking about the company that had cables hanging freely a decade after everyone else managed to make concealed cables right? Lets just say aesthetics is not on the top of their line of priorities.


Not only that, but they had to make a system that could be used on bikes not designed to use an electronic system...which means exposed wires.

If a biker were build specifically to use Di2 it could easily be done and integrated so you didn't see any cables along the way...it wouldn't be hard to do really. The biggest issue is for the average person to access them if they need to be replaced....This however would not be an issue in a bike such as being discussed in this thread.


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## Francis Cebedo

davidka said:


> Nice car. Now attempt to put the power system in the bike, driving the bb spindle (which turns 70-120 rpm, not 30,000). Make it 100% reliable so that it will work after being pounded for 50k of cobblestones and completely conceal it so there's not even 1mm of exposed wire showing anywhere. Also make sure that it has zero parisitic drag when not in use and it must be completely silent when both on and off. Shimano is a giant corporation with manufacturing capability that blows away everyone else in the bicycle industry and Di2 is the best they could come up with in terms of integrating an electric system into a bicycle. It has exposed wires, components that are difficult to locate, etc. Do you really think a couple of race mechanics in a basement can do better?


Good issues. the other issue is heat. 

If it were me, I'd put the motor in the rear hub since that already has an efficient ratchet and make it look like a Powertap hub. 

fc


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## ghostryder

I haven't seen accelaration like that since i stopped watching formula 1. But, seriously, it was either his accelaration or the others were just tired and he wasn't. Remember, he was sitting back the whole race.


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## Salsa_Lover

Bocephus Jones II said:


> I'm sure you could put a smaller battery into the seattube...Cancellara would only need it for a couple accellerations per race...it's not like it'd need to last very long.


NiteFlux Batteries would fit well on the seat tube, and they are light


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## rydbyk

Di2 has exposed wiring because Shimano wants the device to be accessible. Simple.


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## jcr7u

davidka said:


> Nice car. Now attempt to put the power system in the bike, driving the bb spindle (which turns 70-120 rpm, not 30,000). Make it 100% reliable so that it will work after being pounded for 50k of cobblestones and completely conceal it so there's not even 1mm of exposed wire showing anywhere. Also make sure that it has zero parisitic drag when not in use and it must be completely silent when both on and off. Shimano is a giant corporation with manufacturing capability that blows away everyone else in the bicycle industry and Di2 is the best they could come up with in terms of integrating an electric system into a bicycle. It has exposed wires, components that are difficult to locate, etc. Do you really think a couple of race mechanics in a basement can do better?


... yes. I have a buddy that builds robots in his basement, and you should see some of the stuff he comes up with. These teams have lots of $$$, talented mechanics/machinists, and only have to make one production model of this motor (not thousands). I am not saying that Cancellara had one in his bike, but a team of talented mechanics with money and a full shop could definitely pull something like this off. 

As far as exposed wires are concerned, why not just use an RC transmitter hidden in the bar? All it would take is a decent welder with a TIG rig and a good barwrap job to cover it up.

Regardless of whether or not he cheated, the motor in the youtube video is one of the coolest things I have seen in a long time.


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## davidka

jcr7u said:


> ... yes. I have a buddy that builds robots in his basement, and you should see some of the stuff he comes up with. These teams have lots of $$$, talented mechanics/machinists, and only have to make one production model of this motor (not thousands). I am not saying that Cancellara had one in his bike, but a team of talented mechanics with money and a full shop could definitely pull something like this off.
> 
> As far as exposed wires are concerned, why not just use an RC transmitter hidden in the bar? All it would take is a decent welder with a TIG rig and a good barwrap job to cover it up.
> 
> Regardless of whether or not he cheated, the motor in the youtube video is one of the coolest things I have seen in a long time.


No, he couldn't. Next time he makes something cool on one of his robots, ask him to make it strong enough to move a man, silent and completely invisible (able to be concealed in a paper towel tube).

Pro teams don't have a lot of $$'s, a top Pro-Tour team's annual budget is less than many NFL, NBA, and NBL individual player's salaries. Not the kind of cash that develops innovative technologies. This is why they need sponsors for bikes, wheels, etc. I am not aware of a single mechanical innovation to ever come from a cycling team, only the manufacturers that sponsor them.

I've worked with the motor you saw in the video. It's the best exectution of a BB drive motor anyone has come up with to date. It's junk.


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## skygodmatt

I watched the youtube video and laughed at first....then I thought about it.

After doing research I found the hidden motor they were referring to. It is made by* Gruber*. 
Here is their site:
http://www.gruberassist.com/english/product/product-description/

It can produce* 200 watts for up to 45 minutes*. Smaller batteries would shorten this time obviously. It's a plug and play unit. 

The tour is using scanners now.

Very interesting......


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## badge118

Its BS basically. The motor used is one the reporter says in on the open market. The only one of that type is the gruber assist motor. This motor's design is such that it would give no benefit to a rider who needed to produce the watts FC does at his cadence. It would actually be a hinderance because the entire unit weight well over a kilogram, battery included, and so he would be getting no benefit with more weight on his bike. When you look at what moves you forward its not just a matter of HP or Watts its a matter of Torque and RPM's. Take the motor show in an earlier post with an RC car thats producing 4500 watts. Now put it on a skate board and stand on it. Tell me if it moves you forward with 4500 watts. Probably not. That means if he is using a motor it is a one off. A one off motor that apprently has not been leaked at all with all the people that would need to be involved not only in its development but also its installation and use. A one off motor that goes beyond what current lithium ion battery technology provides.

Could he be doping yeah, but to think that he was using a motor when he won those two races the way he has won EVERY race in his career? Please guys...lets just accuse him of doping with no evidence, thats at least plausible. This is simply sad.


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## dave2pvd

badge118 said:


> This motor's design is such that it would give no benefit to a rider who needed to produce the watts FC does at his cadence. _*It would actually be a hinderance (!!!) *_ because the entire unit weight well over a kilogram, battery included, and so he would be getting no benefit with more weight on his bike.
> 
> When you look at what moves you forward its not just a matter of HP or Watts its a matter of Torque and RPM's. Take the motor show in an earlier post with an RC car thats producing 4500 watts. Now put it on a skate board and stand on it. Tell me if it moves you forward with 4500 watts.


Got physics?

FYI: 

Power (HP or Watts) = c x torque x RPM


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## badge118

dave2pvd said:


> Got physics?
> 
> FYI:
> 
> Power (HP or Watts) = c x torque x RPM



Yes but little things like resistance, such as created by weight go into this. My point, while poorly explained is that the torque will be altered by the amount of resistance. The more weight that you apply to a motor, the more resistance you will have, the more inertia the moment arm has to overcome and so you have less effective torque. The less effective torque that you get the lesseffective HP you get. 

Also as was noted in my post the motor that the reporter alleged was used would be physically incpable of helping based on Gruber's own literature. feel free to look them up they have a web site http://www.gruberassist.com/category/englisch/. There motor has some interesting tid bits. As an assist motor (and as the video already shows says) you can preset the rpms. basically that means if you set for 80 rpms and you pedal 60 the motor takes care of the 20. The motor however is designed to provide 100 watts (its peak assistance) at only 60 rpms. What happens if you pedal faster than 60? The motor does nothing, it is designed so that if you over ride the preset rpms, it essentially disconnects and only provides frictional resistance so its actually a hinderance. 

I think its also useful for people to see the limitations of batteries in this regard. The Gruber motor's batteries are quite large, even though they are lithium ion batteries and can only provide about an hour's worth of power for their limited function that would be useless in pro racing. If a company that poured butt loads of money into the R&D of their product came up with the best they could and its something like this.

Now if we use Occam's razor and don't go into the realm's of the X-files and say "well the reporter said it was this motor" and then do research and see it is impossible for "that" motor to be of assitance, then well FC didn't use a motor did he?

Again the dude could have doped but doping accusations using only performance of evidence is conspiratorial enough. Jumping rom that to motors with only performance as evidence goes to the point of believing in Conspiracies alla Capricorn one


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