# Sram force front derailleur setup



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

I just installed a new Sram Force front derailleur using an Sram clamp adaptor for a braze-on style derailleur, but I can’t adjust the height of the derailleur to get the 1-3 mm between the cage of the derailleur and the big chainring. The outer plate of the back portion of the derailleur cage hits the teeth on my big chainring, but the outer plate of the front portion of the derailleur is still almost 1 cm above the teeth of the big chainring. It’s as if I need to rotate the derailleur clockwise to give the back portion more clearance and bring the front down towards the chainring. 

Anybody else have this issue? I haven’t tried to shift with it yet, but I have never seen a derailleur fit like this and it’s not what Sram specifies for setup.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Something sounds very wrong here. Any ability to post a picture?

As I get it, you have a 10mm gap in the front part of the outer plate, but the rear part hits the chainring?

What are the frame angles you're working with? I've never seen this, or even heard of it.


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

It's on a Litespeed Archon frame. I have been running Dura Ace 7700 components with no problems. I finally decided to go 10 speed, so I picked up a Force groupset,. 
Either my clamp is off or I have something setup wrong. If I would move the derailleur back, that would give me more clearance for the rear part of the cage and I could drop the derailleur lower. I will post a picture tonight when I get home.


----------



## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

It sounds like the clamp is being forced to rotate in the longitudinal plane of the bike, that is looking from the side the clamp is rotating up in the front/down in the back. Is it possible there is something stuck on the inner surface of the clamp? Or does your frame have a lot of shaping at the seat tube above or below where it would mount? Does the clamp portion clamp in the same spot as your old derailleur? Have you switched to a compact?


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

Still running 53/39. No problem with other derailleurs. Tubes aren't weird shaped. Derailleur clamp is at about the same place as my DA 7700 clamp. I must be doing something wrong, but I can't figure out what.


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

*pictures*

Here are the pictures. OK, tell me what I am doing wrong.


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

I just switched back to my DA derailleur and used the same clamp that I used for the Force derailleur. No problems with the DA derailleur and Sram clamp. Seems like there is a problem with the Force derailleur.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Looks to me like you might have the clamp on the seat tube rotated so that the mounting surface for the derailer is too far forward with the Force. I suggest loosening it and rotating it 10-15 degrees clockwise when view from the top and see how that works. This will move the derailer toward the rear of the bike and the rear of the cage away from the chain ring.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Well damn, honestly I'm stumped on that. The only thing I can think of would be to rotate the clamp rearward, and rotate the Force FD outward on the clamp, but I'm not sure that can actually be done.


----------



## Amfoto1 (Feb 16, 2010)

That's a puzzler. I've installed a few Sram front derailleurs and none ended up looking like that. All I can think is that maybe it's a design specifically for a cross bike with small chainrings, or something like that. 

Except that I don't think Sram makes a separate FD for that purpose. All their braze-on FD's have two mounting holes, one for standard size chainrings, the others for compact/cross. But you have it mounted correctly... The lower mounting hole that you're using is the one used with full size chainrings, the upper mounting hole is used with any compact rings. That really shouldn't matter, anyway, when using a clamp adapter to seat tube that doesn't have a braze-on tab... where you can slide the clamp up and down as needed. 

The only other possibility I can think of is if that particular FD is made for some special application, such as a bike with a more vertical seat tube. However, AFAIK, Sram doesn't make any variants of their Force FD (aside from the usual clamp/braze-on variations).

I'd contact the seller or Sram and see if they can shed any light on it and swap out for correct FD that will work.


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

When I do this, it throws the cage far out of alignment with the chainring. Even then it didn't take care of the height issue.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

mmorra said:


> When I do this, it throws the cage far out of alignment with the chainring. Even then it didn't take care of the height issue.


If you rotate the derailleur counter clockwise in the adapter mount channel (until the mounting bolt stops against the adapter slot), then rotate the adapter clockwise to take out the angle, that should move the derailleur back far enough.

Before you do anything else, make sure that the derailleur is squarely seated in the adapter channel. A burr or lip will rotate the derailleur when viewed from the side. The front edge of the derailler should be parallel with the seat tube. You might also try the other mounting hole in the derailleur to see if that changes anything.

If it doesn't work, try a different adapter - they are not all shaped the same. A different adapter may locate the derailleur further aft. The front of the derailleur should be about 3/8" behind the front of the seat tube. 

If that doesn't work, file away some of the top of the adapter slot so the derailleur rotates clockwise when viewed from the side (as in your pictures). Alternately, file the slot in the adapter to allow the derailleur to rotate more in the vertical, as in step one. Only do these if nothing else works.


If you look at this SRAM equipped Archon, you'll see that the derailleur is much further aft than yours. This is fixable, and the mount is the problem:


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

That was just the ticket. I had to do some extensive filing of the clamp, slotting the hole and removing metal so the head of allen could slide over to the inside. Thanks for the great advice. 

I have never had so many problems with a groupset. I had to put a spacer on the derailleur to move it outboard, because the limit screws wouldn't work. I also had to put a shorter screw in rear derailleur so that I could get the 6 mm required between the cogs and the derailleur pulley. Nothing seemed to fit. 

Thanks again for the advice. I want to try and race tomorrow and I thought I might have to switch all the components back to my old DA 9-speed.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

mmorra said:


> That was just the ticket. I had to do some extensive filing of the clamp, slotting the hole and removing metal so the head of allen could slide over to the inside. Thanks for the great advice.
> 
> I have never had so many problems with a groupset. I had to put a spacer on the derailleur to move it outboard, because the limit screws wouldn't work. I also had to put a shorter screw in rear derailleur so that I could get the 6 mm required between the cogs and the derailleur pulley. Nothing seemed to fit.
> 
> Thanks again for the advice. I want to try and race tomorrow and I thought I might have to switch all the components back to my old DA 9-speed.


I can't imagine why you would have to do any of those things. The screw length thing doesn't even make sense - how could it be too long?


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

I had to back the screw out so far that the screwdriver end was hitting the rear derailleur cage. It probably would have worked OK, but the screw was backed just about completely out. Because the end of the screw doesn't have any threads, it wasn't held in the derailleur by much.


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

One last stupid question. The instructions for the PowerLock for the chain say point the arrows on the PowerLock in the direction the chain rotates. You can do this for one half of the PowerLock, but not both halves. I assume they mean just for the outside arrow. The halves would have to be different to get both arrows pointed in the direction of chain rotation and they are not.


----------



## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

I've never followed the 6mm spacing that SRAM uses for their rear derailleur. I make it so the upper pulley does not hit the cassette. Been using SRAM for 4 years, and every single bike I own (except for my wifes) has SRAM on it.

The spacer that you had to use is dictated by the derailleur hanger. Some are a little narrower than others, so a spacer is needed to get the proper distance. It's been reported with some of the MTB SRAM rear derailleurs. But its not a common issue.

Not sure if your Archon is a custom build or one of their "standard sizes" but if its custom, then there is a possibility of issues arising. There shouldn't be issues, but you never know.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

frdfandc said:


> I've never followed the 6mm spacing that SRAM uses for their rear derailleur. I make it so the upper pulley does not hit the cassette. Been using SRAM for 4 years, and every single bike I own (except for my wifes) has SRAM on it.
> 
> The spacer that you had to use is dictated by the derailleur hanger. Some are a little narrower than others, so a spacer is needed to get the proper distance. It's been reported with some of the MTB SRAM rear derailleurs. But its not a common issue.
> 
> Not sure if your Archon is a custom build or one of their "standard sizes" but if its custom, then there is a possibility of issues arising. There shouldn't be issues, but you never know.


Titanium dropouts are not usually narrow. And 6mms is not that close. One wonders if the dropout has issues.


----------



## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> Titanium dropouts are not usually narrow. And 6mms is not that close. One wonders if the dropout has issues.



Does the Archon have a replaceable hanger? Thats what I was referring too. 

Yes, one wonders if there is a drop out issue.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

frdfandc said:


> Does the Archon have a replaceable hanger? Thats what I was referring too.
> 
> Yes, one wonders if there is a drop out issue.


Dunno. But the spacer would indicate the hanger is bent in, and the short screw would indicate bent out. So that doesn't help. 

It's acting like the hanger is located too far back and bent, if anything. I don't see why the old parts would fit and the new wouldn't, unless a removeable hanger shifted.


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

Replaceable hanger that is very thin. Frame is less than a year old and I checked hanger alignement. It's dead on. The screw just has to be backed way out. It still works, it's just sticking out big time.


----------



## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

mmorra said:


> Replaceable hanger that is very thin.



This is the issue I was referring too when I stated that the derailleur hanger might be the cause of the use of a spacer. Its been documented over on MTBR.com that some bikes require a spacer with SRAM rear derailleurs. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts.


----------



## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

The angle of the derailleur's dangle is a common issue. SRAM machines shims for this that a shop can get directly from S. 

The rear derailleur thing used to happen quite a bit, but has really been a non-issue for a couple years. What generation Force is this?


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

Just got the groupset about 3 weeks ago, so 2010/2011?


----------



## BHG5 (Jun 25, 2012)

*Similar issue...*

I have a similar problem to what was discussed in this thread, but it's not on a new build. I have a BH G5 with SRAM Red which I have been riding happily for a few years. Just this evening I mounted a new rear wheel and cassette and the front derailleur appears to have shifted. The rear edge of the cage is hitting the teeth on the big ring, whereas the front of the cage appears to be adjusted properly. The derailleur does not appear to have slipped down the clamp either. 

Any ideas as to what may have changed and how I can fix this?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

no idea. guess you need to re-position and adjust the derailleur. 

seriously now...w/o any photos there is no way for anyone to see what might have happened. obviously, the derailleur moved. it's a braze-on? is the braze-on mount on the frame adjustable? maybe it moved. maybe it got hit by something and it's bent. garden gnomes are always a possibility. who knows...
if you're the mechanical type (not sounding that way) you can easily find the directions on the SRAM site and try to fix the problem. if not, sounds like a trip to the bike shop is in order.
i don't want to sound like i'm picking on you, but c'mon...i'm only able to toss random ideas out there because i can't actually see your bike.


----------



## BHG5 (Jun 25, 2012)

*Yeah... thanks...*

Thanks for your reply. It's disappointing and unfortunate that you didn't have anything useful to add. Although, I suppose I should have anticipated that when you opened with "no idea." As for your tone, well, that's unfortunate too. 

This thread seemed to suggest that this site had some kind, knowledgeable people active on the site. Perhaps you are one of those people and have something valuable to add? (not sounding that way)

As for anyone else out there, any thoughts are appreciated. Photos attached. 

Matt


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

now we have something to work with. it doesn't look like the braze-on mount is adjustable, so that couldn't have moved. if you move the rear of the cage back and forth w/ your fingers is there play? possibly the pivots are just worn to the point the cage is moving down and hitting the teeth? why not just undo the cable and re-adjust the deraileur and see what happens? it does look a bit low, but your photo is at an angle...try moving it up a couple of mm and see what happens. also check the slot in the braze-on tab, make sure it's not starting to get blown out at all, that would allow the derailleur to move to that 'tail down' position. 
i'm sure my first reply sounded a little pissy, but do you realize how many 'hey, my derailleur doesn't work, how come?' posts there are? check the SRAM site and follow their instructions, you should be able to get that working pretty well.


----------



## BHG5 (Jun 25, 2012)

That's correct. The mount is not adjustable. There is no play on the cage when it is moved in any direction. It definitely wants to stay put. It doesn't look like it was bent in any way either. 

The derailleur doesn't appear to have moved on the mount at all, which is the only reason why I haven't taken it off yet. I just wanted to be sure that there wasn't something I was missing that might provide the sort of "counter-clockwise" rotation to the cage that would fix the issue.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

weird...i'd undo the cable and move it up a bit, then re-adjust everything. could just be one of those 'sh*t happens' kind of things. if you can't get it set at the right height w/o the rear of the cage hitting the chainring, you could always reverse the SRAM tapered shim and try that...it looks like this and is officially known as "SRAM Braze-on Front Derailleur washer for compact crank" but if you install it upside down it might help w/ your problem.


----------



## BHG5 (Jun 25, 2012)

I'll give it a go and let you know how it plays out. 

(So strange that the clamp doesn't show any signs of the derailleur having slipped and that it is low in the back of the cage but not in the front...)


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

I'm the guy who originally posted this thread. Don't know why your problem showed up now, but the fix seems to be the same as mine. You need to move the derailleur back. Here is what the very helpful RX-79 suggested that cured my problem (see above). I had to do some extensive grinding and I think I even made a shim from a piece of Al to move the derailleur back. It has been working fine for over a year now. Good luck.
___
If you rotate the derailleur counter clockwise in the adapter mount channel (until the mounting bolt stops against the adapter slot), then rotate the adapter clockwise to take out the angle, that should move the derailleur back far enough.

Before you do anything else, make sure that the derailleur is squarely seated in the adapter channel. A burr or lip will rotate the derailleur when viewed from the side. The front edge of the derailler should be parallel with the seat tube. You might also try the other mounting hole in the derailleur to see if that changes anything.

If it doesn't work, try a different adapter - they are not all shaped the same. A different adapter may locate the derailleur further aft. The front of the derailleur should be about 3/8" behind the front of the seat tube. 

If that doesn't work, file away some of the top of the adapter slot so the derailleur rotates clockwise when viewed from the side (as in your pictures). Alternately, file the slot in the adapter to allow the derailleur to rotate more in the vertical, as in step one. Only do these if nothing else works.


----------



## BHG5 (Jun 25, 2012)

Thanks for hoping back on the thread mmorra. I'm hesitant to do any grinding when the derailleur worked fine for a few years. I'm going to pop it off tonight and see if it just slipped (despite not showing any signs of that). As cxwrench suggested, it may just be a simple adjustment. 

I guess we'll find out tonight!

Matt


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mmorra said:


> I'm the guy who originally posted this thread. Don't know why your problem showed up now, but the fix seems to be the same as mine. You need to move the derailleur back. Here is what the very helpful RX-79 suggested that cured my problem (see above). I had to do some extensive grinding and I think I even made a shim from a piece of Al to move the derailleur back. It has been working fine for over a year now. Good luck.
> ___
> If you rotate the derailleur counter clockwise in the adapter mount channel (until the mounting bolt stops against the adapter slot), then rotate the adapter clockwise to take out the angle, that should move the derailleur back far enough.
> 
> ...


unless your eyes are way better than mine, and that's entirely possible, where are you seeing an adapter? the braze-on mount is part of the frame and is not adjustable.


----------



## BHG5 (Jun 25, 2012)

*Update*

That's correct, there is no adapter. 

I removed and re-positioned the derailleur last night and managed to resolve the issue. I brought the derailleur up about a mm, and aligned the outside edge of the cage with the big chain-ring. Rubbing gone. Of course, I've introduced a shifting problem, but at least that I understand... 

Thanks for your help guys. 

Matt


----------



## mmorra (Dec 28, 2004)

I had to make a shim for mine in order to move the derailleur back. All you need is a piece of aluminum. Cut a piece of aluminum flashing or something similar, drill a hole in it, and bend it to fit the curve of your hanger and derailleur.


----------

