# Canadian cyclist Ryder Hesjedal named in doping allegation by Danish cyclist Michael



## LostViking

*The Chicken Writes A Book*

In his new book "Gul Feber" (translates as "Yellow Fever") - Michael Rasmussen claims the following:

1) Bjarne Riis encouraged riders to get prescriptions for and use asthma inhalers to build muscle. Further, the Chicken writes that Riis was present when Tyler Hamilton received a shot of Synacthen (Cortison).
2) During the 2005 Tour de France - Rasmussen returned multiple adverse findings in doping tests and Rabobank strong-armed the UCI to ignore them.
3) He claims Hejsedal is a doper. As are Danish riders Rolf Sorensen, Nicki Sørensen, and Frank Høj, the Chicken writes. 

Rasmussen makes doping claims against Hesjedal, Sorensen, HÃ¸j and others

Kyllingen afslører: Taget for doping i hemmelighed under Touren i 2005 - Cykling | www.bt.dk

Saxo Bank gives its backing to Riis following Rasmussen allegations

Report: Rasmussen Claims He Taught Hesjedal How To Take EPO | Cyclingnews.com

"Kyllingen" med heftige anklager imod Riis og Nicki Feltet.dk

Hesjedal Admits To Doping, Says Evidence Was Given To USADA | Cyclingnews.com

As far as I know, the book is only available in Danish right now, but I suspect an English version can not be too far away.


----------



## eyebob

I just read about the Hejsdahl stuff on CN and VN. If he admits to it that long ago, (but not lately) would there still be a punishment?

rmt


----------



## love4himies

I am just devastated. He was one rider who I thought rode clean.

Canadian cyclist Ryder Hesjedal named in doping allegation by Danish cyclist Michael Rasmussen: Report | Toronto Star



> Former Danish cyclist Michael Rasmussen has claimed in his newly released autobiography that he taught Canada’s Ryder Hesjedal how to take the blood-booster EPO in 2003.


----------



## spade2you

You do recall that he rode on Discovery, right?


----------



## love4himies

I'm waiting to see how JV responds to this. 



spade2you said:


> You do recall that he rode on Discovery, right?


So??? One year only and it seems to me that Tyler Hamilton had stated in an interview that only certain riders were invited into the doping circle. Being a new rider, I doubt he was one of them.


----------



## terzo rene

Since he's reportedly the only GT winner without a suspect bio-passport it's slightly surprising, but only slightly. If he's used it all along EPO alone wouldn't throw anything off if using a constant dose throughout the season, it's transfusions and changing doses that leave footprints.


----------



## spade2you

Odds of staying clean in that era is slim. Odds of staying clean on certain teams is even slimmer. Plenty of guys simply never got caught and that's their claim to being clean.


----------



## Local Hero

Do we care if people took drugs in 2003? 

I don't remember if this is important.


----------



## eyebob

LostViking started the thread on this also. My question is....so would there be a disciplinary action if it was done that long ago?


----------



## Local Hero

eyebob said:


> LostViking started the thread on this also. My question is....so would there be a disciplinary action if it was done that long ago?


As far as I am aware, roadbikereview does not take disciplinary action for multiple threads on the same subject. When you consider the ineffective search function, how could they?


----------



## spade2you

Local Hero said:


> As far as I am aware, roadbikereview does not take disciplinary action for multiple threads on the same subject. When you consider the ineffective search function, how could they?


No, but people who don't like you can neg rep you.


----------



## love4himies

spade2you said:


> Odds of staying clean in that era is slim. Odds of staying clean on certain teams is even slimmer. Plenty of guys simply never got caught and that's their claim to being clean.


Svein Tuft is the other rider that I believe stayed clean during that era. 

Maybe I was just naive about Ryder, but now I'm crushed.


----------



## Cableguy

spade2you said:


> No, but people who don't like you can neg rep you.


I neg rep in your general direction


----------



## den bakker

love4himies said:


> Svein Tuft is the other rider that I believe stayed clean during that era.
> 
> Maybe I was just naive about Ryder, but now I'm crushed.


meh, the norwegians think their riders are and were pure as snow, almost as clean as their cross country skiers. The danes are throwing a fit that N Soerensen is outed and the brits believe it's veteabix that is behind their success. I'm sure the canadians are different


----------



## spade2you

love4himies said:


> Svein Tuft is the other rider that I believe stayed clean during that era.
> 
> Maybe I was just naive about Ryder, but now I'm crushed.


I give most riders a maybe at best. 

Perhaps the Armstrong SNAFU makes all other confessions or allegations seem so trivial. Regardless, I've never doped and I'm not racing against these guys.


----------



## love4himies

LostViking said:


> In his new book "Gul Feber" (translates as "Yellow Fever") - Michael Rasmussen claims the following:
> 
> 1) Bjarne Riis encouraged riders to get prescriptions for and use asthma inhalers to build muscle. Further, the Chicken writes that Riis was present when Tyler Hamilton received a shot of Synacthen (Cortison).
> 2) During the 2005 Tour de France - Rasmussen returned multiple adverse findings in doping tests and Rabobank strong-armed the UCI to ignore them.
> 3) He claims Hejsedal is a doper. As are Danish riders Rolf Sorensen, Nicki Sørensen, and Frank Høj, the Chicken writes.
> 
> Rasmussen makes doping claims against Hesjedal, Sorensen, HÃ¸j and others
> 
> Kyllingen afslører: Taget for doping i hemmelighed under Touren i 2005 - Cykling | www.bt.dk
> 
> Saxo Bank gives its backing to Riis following Rasmussen allegations
> 
> Report: Rasmussen Claims He Taught Hesjedal How To Take EPO | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> "Kyllingen" med heftige anklager imod Riis og Nicki Feltet.dk
> 
> As far as I know, the book is only available in Danish right now, but I suspect an English version can not be too far away.


He only admits that he taught Ryder (who was with a group of 2 other mountain bikers) to take EPO but never _*saw*_ him take any. People who are tattle tales like that just stir up $hit are facking vengeful [email protected]


----------



## love4himies

den bakker said:


> meh, the norwegians think their riders are and were pure as snow, almost as clean as their cross country skiers. The danes are throwing a fit that N Soerensen is outed and the brits believe it's veteabix that is behind their success. I'm sure the canadians are different


There's always Michael Barry to taint us.


----------



## Coolhand

*Moderators Note*



eyebob said:


> LostViking started the thread on this also. My question is....so would there be a disciplinary action if it was done that long ago?


Merged for your reading pleasure.


----------



## love4himies

Coolhand said:


> Merged for your reading pleasure.


Thanks Coolhand.


----------



## love4himies

JV's response:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Waiting on a few more sign offs on statement,but needless to say <a href="https://twitter.com/ryder_hesjedal">@ryder_hesjedal</a> was 100% truthful,under oath,w CCES+USADA a v long time ago</p>— Jonathan Vaughters (@Vaughters) <a href="https://twitter.com/Vaughters/statuses/395629870358990848">October 30, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


----------



## mpre53

Local Hero said:


> Do we care if people took drugs in 2003?
> 
> I don't remember if this is important.


I think it works like this:

Nice guy = pass.

Dick = hang him by his nuts.


----------



## love4himies

I think he just admitted to it.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>More Hesjedal: "I sincerely apologize for my part in the dark past of the sport. I will always be sorry."</p>— VeloNews (@velonews) <a href="https://twitter.com/velonews/statuses/395636265351008257">October 30, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


----------



## spade2you

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.


Pretty much.


----------



## bruin11

Hesjedal on EPO allegations: 'I chose the wrong path' - VeloNews.com


----------



## burgrat

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his *nut*.


Fixed it for you


----------



## LostViking

The Hesjedal "revelation" may be a surprize to some.

However, The Chicken's outing of Danish riders...not so much of a surprize.
The Danes were just as involved in doping as all the others.
Remember when people seemed to think it was only the Spainiards and Italians?
Even the lilly white Canadians are now coming to light - I find it all very refreashing actually.

And yes, I started the orig thread - not a double post.


----------



## LostViking

eyebob said:


> I just read about the Hejsdahl stuff on CN and VN. If he admits to it that long ago, (but not lately) would there still be a punishment?
> 
> rmt


Don't think so - happened too long ago.

His punishment will be being tainted - having an * next to everything he has achieved.


----------



## LostViking

love4himies said:


> I am just devastated. He was one rider who I thought rode clean.
> 
> Canadian cyclist Ryder Hesjedal named in doping allegation by Danish cyclist Michael Rasmussen: Report | Toronto Star


Sorry love4himmies.  I know you are (were) a big Ryder fan.

Unfortunetly, in these times - no one seems above suspicion.
While I try to adhere to the innocent until proven guilty maxim and try to avoid guilt by association (i.e. he rode with Lance, therefore he must be a doper) - I find myself assuming they are all doped until proven otherwise. Such is the state of pro-cycling.


----------



## LostViking

spade2you said:


> No, but people who don't like you can neg rep you.


Hey, hold on there, ehhhh!


----------



## burgrat

love4himies said:


> He only admits that he taught Ryder (who was with a group of 2 other mountain bikers) to take EPO but never _*saw*_ him take any. People who are tattle tales like that just stir up $hit are facking vengeful [email protected]


Ryder admitted it. Quickest confession in pro cycling history. I respect that he quickly stepped up and didn't BS everyone about it. 

Hesjedal Admits To Doping, Says Evidence Was Given To USADA | Cyclingnews.com


----------



## spade2you

burgrat said:


> Ryder admitted it. Quickest confession in pro cycling history. I respect that he quickly stepped up and didn't BS everyone about it.
> 
> Hesjedal Admits To Doping, Says Evidence Was Given To USADA | Cyclingnews.com


Yes and no. Had The Chicken remained silent, Ryder would have likely done so.


----------



## den bakker

burgrat said:


> Ryder admitted it. Quickest confession in pro cycling history. I respect that he quickly stepped up and didn't BS everyone about it.
> 
> Hesjedal Admits To Doping, Says Evidence Was Given To USADA | Cyclingnews.com


yup 10 years. new international record.


----------



## rufus

spade2you said:


> Odds of staying clean in that era is slim. Odds of staying clean on certain teams is even slimmer. Plenty of guys simply never got caught and that's their claim to being clean.


You're talking about Lance, right?


----------



## rufus

love4himies said:


> JV's response:
> 
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Waiting on a few more sign offs on statement,but needless to say <a href="https://twitter.com/ryder_hesjedal">@ryder_hesjedal</a> was 100% truthful,under oath,w CCES+USADA a v long time ago</p>— Jonathan Vaughters (@Vaughters) <a href="https://twitter.com/Vaughters/statuses/395629870358990848">October 30, 2013</a></blockquote>
> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


That's a pretty sweet non-denial denial.


----------



## den bakker

rufus said:


> That's a pretty sweet non-denial denial.


what did he say under oath? 
since you know it's a non-denial denial.


----------



## rufus

No, Vaughters. Instead of coming out and saying, "yes, he doped, and he told us and USADA all about it", he finesses the statement that "he was 100% truthful with USADA" while not confirming or denying the doping allegations. So if you don't know what Ryder said to USADA, it can be taken either way. 

A non-denial denial.


----------



## spade2you

rufus said:


> You're talking about Lance, right?


There are plenty of guys who never got caught. They either claimed innocence or said nothing at all. This is until they get ratted out or old results get retested. How long did Stuart O'Grady claim to be clean?


----------



## love4himies

LostViking said:


> Even the lilly white Canadians are now coming to light -


Not so lily white, we have Michael Barry.


----------



## r1lee

spade2you said:


> Yes and no. Had The Chicken remained silent, Ryder would have likely done so.


Agreed, he would've been silent if it wasn't for the chicken. I would have respected him more if he would've came clean before being ratted on.

I'm sure he had a statement ready before the book came out, expecting to expose him


----------



## love4himies

rufus said:


> That's a pretty sweet non-denial denial.


That actually came out before Ryder made his public statement that he did try EPO.


----------



## love4himies

r1lee said:


> Agreed, he would've been silent if it wasn't for the chicken. I would have respected him more if he would've came clean before being ratted on.
> 
> I'm sure he had a statement ready before the book came out, expecting to expose him


I agree and that is the main reason I'm so disappointed in him. Even though he did confess to USADA and CCES, he should have come out to the public too. 

I don't think they knew it was coming out in the book. JV would have had a statement prepared before it did and I believe he would have had Ryder confess beforehand.


----------



## spade2you

r1lee said:


> Agreed, he would've been silent if it wasn't for the chicken. I would have respected him more if he would've came clean before being ratted on.
> 
> I'm sure he had a statement ready before the book came out, expecting to expose him


IDK, part of human nature to remain silent if you're not caught. I'm not going to the cops for the time I hit 120mph in my car when I was in high school. 

I'm sure most guys are preparing in some way or another. I'd really like to see a massive retrotesting. Too bad it'll never happen. 

Now, let's pretend we're Spanish and are unaware that doping was or is going on.....


----------



## love4himies

LostViking said:


> Don't think so - happened too long ago.
> 
> His punishment will be being tainted - having an * next to everything he has achieved.


Yup. Hopefully young riders are learning from all the caught dopers and realize that it will come out sooner or later.


----------



## r1lee

love4himies said:


> I agree and that is the main reason I'm so disappointed in him. Even though he did confess to USADA and CCES, he should have come out to the public too.
> 
> I don't think they knew it was coming out in the book. JV would have had a statement prepared before it did and I believe he would have had Ryder confess beforehand.


Yeah, but that was the thing, they weren't sure if he would rat them out. So why come clean?



spade2you said:


> IDK, part of human nature to remain silent if you're not caught. I'm not going to the cops for the time I hit 120mph in my car when I was in high school.
> 
> I'm sure most guys are preparing in some way or another. I'd really like to see a massive retrotesting. Too bad it'll never happen.
> 
> Now, let's pretend we're Spanish and are unaware that doping was or is going on.....


You're right in the respect that you won't come clean about travelling 120mph. But this is a totally different situation. His livelihood and his reputation past, present and future will always be questioned. He went from doping, to not doping and beating everyone at the giro, even dopers....


----------



## love4himies

LostViking said:


> Sorry love4himmies.  I know you are (were) a big Ryder fan.
> 
> Unfortunetly, in these times - no one seems above suspicion.
> While I try to adhere to the innocent until proven guilty maxim and try to avoid guilt by association (i.e. he rode with Lance, therefore he must be a doper) - I find myself assuming they are all doped until proven otherwise. Such is the state of pro-cycling.


Thanks LostViking, I can't tell you how crushed I am. I am not one to idolize movie stars or musicians, but Ryder was always somebody I thought was special. I guess I was fooled.

BTW, you can call me L4H for short.


----------



## love4himies

r1lee said:


> He went from doping, to not doping and beating everyone at the giro, even dopers....


You are right, there will always be that doubt in everybody's mind.


----------



## spade2you

r1lee said:


> You're right in the respect that you won't come clean about travelling 120mph. But this is a totally different situation. His livelihood and his reputation past, present and future will always be questioned. He went from doping, to not doping and beating everyone at the giro, even dopers....


I know I get picked apart for my comments, but I have seen plenty of that in college and as a pharmacist. 

There was plenty of cheating in college. Some guys got caught. Most didn't. The ones who didn't get caught are never going to confess. Some of the guys who got caught still deny what they were doing. A lot of the cheaters didn't pass boards. A couple even went on to med school. 

On the job, I knew of a few pharmacists diverting. Most were caught eventually. I even knew a guy who was helping his friend divert narcotics. His friend got caught. He managed to retire without incident. Guys who tried to expose this ended up getting fired cuz he was the boss! 

I could go on, but I think it goes without saying that people are prone to cheating and being shady. I'd be lying if I didn't think about it. Honesty and reliability hasn't done that much for me.


----------



## sir duke

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.


I think it's time to start hanging nice guys by their nuts. We have the usual, 'it was a long time ago, I didn't dope for very long, it's important to tell the truth, I hope by coming forward with the truth that we can make cycling yada yada'. Cynical bastage.


----------



## sir duke

love4himies said:


> I'm waiting to see how JV responds to this.
> 
> 
> 
> So??? One year only and it seems to me that Tyler Hamilton had stated in an interview that only certain riders were invited into the doping circle. Being a new rider, I doubt he was one of them.


Pretty irrelevant. You don't seriously think Hamilton went from doping virgin to blood doping in Spanish hotels overnight? Riders were doping on that team who were never going to be part of the inner circle.


----------



## spade2you

sir duke said:


> I think it's time to start hanging nice guys by their nuts. We have the usual, 'it was a long time ago, I didn't dope for very long, it's important to tell the truth, I hope by coming forward with the truth that we can make cycling yada yada'. Cynical bastage.


It's a good thing cycling is clean now.


----------



## The Tedinator

love4himies said:


> There's always Michael Barry to taint us.


heheh...heheh....he said 'taint"!


----------



## sir duke

love4himies said:


> People who are tattle tales like that just stir up $hit are facking vengeful [email protected]


I'm no fan of Rasmussen, who deserves to be known as 'The Chicken' as much for his cowardly evasions back in 2007 as for his thin and pasty physique. BUT, your response bears a great deal of resemblance to the positions taken by those who would rather the omerta stay intact.
It can't be much fun knowing someone you looked up to and admired was on the sauce, but that's always the big risk in this game. 
You may feel better venting against Rasmussen, but the sooner you put distance between your admiration for Hesjedal and the facts, the sooner you will realise how far we are from the clean sport and honesty from riders (and Ryders!) that we all deserve.

Don't join the ranks of the butthurt, it only leads to humiliation.


----------



## PaxRomana

Soon enough, Froome and Wiggins will be joining Ryder in the dopers' club.


----------



## spade2you

PaxRomana said:


> Soon enough, Froome and Wiggins will be joining Ryder in the dopers' club.


Bashing Wiggo and Froome is pure and utter drivel, or so I have been told. 

I'd like to think any doper with half a brain will learn from the rats and drama queens. Keep it all under wraps and keep your mouth shut. Problem solved.


----------



## sir duke

Local Hero said:


> Do we care if people took drugs in 2003?
> 
> I don't remember if this is important.


Coming from someone who has repeatedly droned on about Lemond's 'doping' this is fecking hilarious!


----------



## sir duke

spade2you said:


> It's a good thing cycling is clean now.



Cynical bastage.


----------



## sir duke

PaxRomana said:


> Soon enough, Froome and Wiggins will be joining Ryder in the dopers' club.


A pound to a penny says Horner gets there first. Care to put your money where your mouth is?


----------



## spade2you

sir duke said:


> A pound to a penny says Horner gets there first. Care to put your money where your mouth is?


I have a gut feeling that Wiggo and Froome are never caught. Horner gets busted first. Cadel in a few years.


----------



## DrSmile

Amazing how he only used it during the time that Rasmussen can implicate, and immediately stopped afterwards... must have been because the stuff wasn't working... yeah that seems like the most likely explanation.

My translation of posts in this forum from individuals who think riders are now clean is " I am a rube and I believe in the tooth fairy."

The bio passport has obviously been beat. We need new detection methods with a zero tolerance policy and no limits on retroactive testing.


----------



## sir duke

spade2you said:


> I have a gut feeling that Wiggo and Froome are never caught. Horner gets busted first. Cadel in a few years.


If I were a betting man I'd go along that route. I'd say Wiggo in 5-7, Froome inside 10. If there's T & R I'd expect to hear from Cuddles.


----------



## Local Hero

love4himies said:


> Thanks LostViking, I can't tell you how crushed I am. I am not one to idolize movie stars or musicians, but Ryder was always somebody I thought was special. I guess I was fooled.
> 
> BTW, you can call me L4H for short.


If you don't know the guy personally, whjy does this matter to you so much?


----------



## Local Hero

sir duke said:


> Coming from someone who has repeatedly droned on about Lemond's 'doping' this is fecking hilarious!


If only Lemond would come clean!


----------



## love4himies

sir duke said:


> I'm no fan of Rasmussen, who deserves to be known as 'The Chicken' as much for his cowardly evasions back in 2007 as for his thin and pasty physique. BUT, your response bears a great deal of resemblance to the positions taken by those who would rather the omerta stay intact.
> It can't be much fun knowing someone you looked up to and admired was on the sauce, but that's always the big risk in this game.
> You may feel better venting against Rasmussen, but the sooner you put distance between your admiration for Hesjedal and the facts, the sooner you will realise how far we are from the clean sport and honesty from riders (and Ryders!) that we all deserve.
> 
> Don't join the ranks of the butthurt, it only leads to humiliation.


I said this ONLY because he did not see Ryder take the EPO, but only *showed* him. That is just spreading speculation that could lead to ruined careers and needless doubt into an athlete's integrity. It was also not the venue to release that information. It should have been done by informing the authorities not in a public forum. His objective was to sell books, not to clean up the sport. Just like with Betsy screaming to the press about Lance, the message gets lost when the objective appears to be vengeance, rather than justice and truth.

Am I butthurt? Yup, I am. He's been my only idol in all my 51 years. He was what I thought was the result of honest, hard work with a whole bunch of talent in a sport that is ripe with cheaters. He had earned my respect both personally and professionally.


----------



## love4himies

The Tedinator said:


> heheh...heheh....he said 'taint"!


I'm a girl. 


<<<<<< See avatar, me & Ryder.


----------



## den bakker

love4himies said:


> It should have been done by informing the authorities not in a public forum. His objective was to sell books, not to clean up the sport. Just like with Betsy screaming to the press about Lance, the message gets lost when the objective appears to be vengeance, rather than justice and truth.


you might want to read up on this. he did speak with the authorities first. only after that case was done has he spoken up. 
and the "selling books" is getting old. it's in danish, really tapping into the endless pool of royalties there.


----------



## love4himies

Local Hero said:


> If only Lemond would come clean!


Oh, you are so bad, but you make me laugh!


----------



## love4himies

den bakker said:


> you might want to read up on this. he did speak with the authorities first. only after that case was done has he spoken up.
> and the "selling books" is getting old. it's in danish, really tapping into the endless pool of royalties there.


And it should have ended there or at the very least, after going to the Canadian authorities. 

If the demand is there, it will be translated into English/French/German/Italian/Spanish and any other language that there is demand for.


----------



## den bakker

love4himies said:


> And it should have ended there or at the very least, after going to the Canadian authorities.


when part of the story is the authorities is corrupt (that's the real story not some random riders past) it might be a good idea to make sure the story is known rather wide.


----------



## love4himies

den bakker said:


> when part of the story is the authorities is corrupt (that's the real story not some random riders past) it might be a good idea to make sure the story is known rather wide.


Hence why I mentioned going the the Canadian authorities.


----------



## den bakker

love4himies said:


> Hence why I mentioned going the the Canadian authorities.


are they cleaner than their riders?


----------



## PaxRomana

sir duke said:


> A pound to a penny says Horner gets there first. Care to put your money where your mouth is?


Oh, I think Horner's already been outed as Rider 15. No doubt Horner's a big-time doper. Just like Froome and Wiggins, among many others.

I have a feeling there will be some major fallout from the Bruyneel investigation.


----------



## love4himies

PaxRomana said:


> Oh, I think Horner's already been outed as Rider 15. No doubt Horner's a big-time doper. Just like Froome and Wiggins, among many others.
> 
> I have a feeling there will be some major fallout from the Bruyneel investigation.


It wouldn't surprise me that Ryder is one of the "blacked out" cyclists.


----------



## sir duke

Local Hero said:


> If only Lemond would come clean!


If he did, who'd believe him? All dopers are liars. He lied about Armstrong for years...

(stop me if you've had enough of my sarcasm, I know it's not to everyone's taste.)


----------



## PaxRomana

After all the dust settles, Lemond will be the last clean GT winner in the last quarter-century.

I don't see things changing either.


----------



## saird

love4himies said:


> He was what I thought was the result of honest, hard work



He still is the result of hard work. If someone uses performance enhancing drugs it doesn't mean they get to train less, quite the opposite in fact.


----------



## sir duke

> Just like with Betsy screaming to the press about Lance, the message gets lost when the objective appears to be vengeance, rather than justice and truth.


Not so. In 'Lanceworld', and as far as most of the U.S. media at the time was concerned there was only 'Lanceworld', Betsy was the crazywoman in the attic. She was 'vengeful' because Lance and his cohorts said she was. 'True fans' too lazy to even consider an alternative viewpoint piled on. Well that's what 'true fans ' do so no surprises there. Considering what happened to her and her hubby's career prospects she has shown considerable restraint. Just an angry woman with plenty to be angry about. 
Your comments about Rasmussen's book could apply equally to what Armstrong did to Betsy Andreu, he spread speculation in order to damage a reputation and career. Only with Ryder it turns out to be true. To quote Dr Falsetti, 'post, not poster'.



> Am I butthurt? Yup, I am. He's been my only idol in all my 51 years. He was what I thought was the result of honest, hard work with a whole bunch of talent in a sport that is ripe with cheaters. He had earned my respect both personally and professionally.


Well it's refreshing to see someone on this forum whose hero has gone down in flames be upfront and mature about their sense of betrayal. I wish I could have back those feelings of awe and admiration that I had when started following pro cycling as a teenager. Alas there have been too many lies and f*ck-ups for me to go back to those days. I'd like to be sanguine about the future of the sport but Hejesdal's news just goes to show we are still witnessing the bad stuff unravelling rather than any new beginings.


----------



## PaxRomana

Just because people are naive enough to believe their favorite cyclist is the "clean" one doesn't earn them any sort of "respect". 

If your "hero" is a professional cyclist, you really need to find better heroes. The cyclists didn't "betray" you, your common sense did.


----------



## DrSmile

PaxRomana said:


> Just because people are naive enough to believe their favorite cyclist is the "clean" one doesn't earn them any sort of "respect".
> 
> If your "hero" is a professional cyclist, you really need to find better heroes. The cyclists didn't "betray" you, your common sense did.


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PaxRomana again."


----------



## sir duke

PaxRomana said:


> After all the dust settles, Lemond will be the last clean GT winner in the last quarter-century.
> 
> I don't see things changing either.


The more I think about it, the more likely it seems. I think the clock is ticking on people like Indurain. Hinault may last a little longer as he's further removed from the excesses of the EPO years.


----------



## love4himies

sir duke said:


> Not so. In 'Lanceworld', and as far as most of the U.S. media at the time was concerned there was only 'Lanceworld', Betsy was the crazywoman in the attic. She was 'vengeful' because Lance and his cohorts said she was. 'True fans' too lazy to even consider an alternative viewpoint piled on. Well that's what 'true fans ' do so no surprises there. Considering what happened to her and her hubby's career prospects she has shown considerable restraint. Just an angry woman with plenty to be angry about.
> Your comments about Rasmussen's book could apply equally to what Armstrong did to Betsy Andreu, he spread speculation in order to damage a reputation and career. Only with Ryder it turns out to be true. To quote Dr Falsetti, 'post, not poster'.
> 
> I guess we may have to agree to disagree on people tattle telling to the media. I just have a different view on how matters should be handled. However, I do respect your opinion that she did what she needed to do to keep her name in good standing. I would not want to be called a liar either and she was very brave to go up against Lance and pretty much the whole sport of cycling.
> 
> Well it's refreshing to see someone on this forum whose hero has gone down in flames be upfront and mature about their sense of betrayal. I wish I could have back those feelings of awe and admiration that I had when started following pro cycling as a teenager. Alas there have been too many lies and f*ck-ups for me to go back to those days. I'd like to be sanguine about the future of the sport but Hejesdal's news just goes to show we are still witnessing the bad stuff unravelling rather than any new beginings.


Thanks, sir duke.


----------



## love4himies

PaxRomana said:


> Just because people are naive enough to believe their favorite cyclist is the "clean" one doesn't earn them any sort of "respect".
> 
> If your "hero" is a professional cyclist, you really need to find better heroes. The cyclists didn't "betray" you, your common sense did.


Seriously????? He was my "hero" because I _thought_ (naively so), he had the _integrity_ to not cheat, not just because he was a cyclist. It is the *integrity* that I really loved about him and the love of cycling second.


----------



## PaxRomana

love4himies said:


> Seriously????? He was my "hero" because I _thought_ (naively so), he had the _integrity_ to not cheat, not just because he was a cyclist. It is the *integrity* that I really loved about him and the love of cycling second.


Integrity? Is that really it? Because if you're really looking for integrity, I suggest you take a look at Betsy Andreu, whose name you just disparaged.

Betsy could have gone with the flow just like the other wives and girlfriends, who received the benefit of having their pro cyclist significant other gain fame and fortune through doping (e.g., Kristen Armstrong, Sheryl Crow, Haven Hamilton, etc., etc.).

She didn't. She told Frankie she would have none of it, and because of that, both she and Frankie were treated like outcasts in the sport and insulted repeatedly.

If you're looking for integrity, I suggest you start looking for people going AGAINST the flow, rather than with it.


----------



## sir duke

love4himies said:


> Thanks, sir duke.


No, thank y_ou_. You had the balls to admit you backed the wrong horse. (Apologies for having to praise a smart woman with tired old macho imagery) A lot of folks round here have just gone on to resentful sniping from the sidelines since the Golden Nugget broke with tradition and tried a few truths at 'The Grand Ole Oprah'. I have to say though that Pax Romana is on the money about Betsy and yet she still has her detractors here.


----------



## love4himies

PaxRomana said:


> Integrity? Is that really it? Because if you're really looking for integrity, I suggest you take a look at Betsy Andreu, whose name you just disparaged.
> 
> Betsy could have gone with the flow just like the other wives and girlfriends, who received the benefit of having their pro cyclist significant other gain fame and fortune through doping (e.g., Kristen Armstrong, Sheryl Crow, Haven Hamilton, etc., etc.).
> 
> She didn't. She told Frankie she would have none of it, and because of that, both she and Frankie were treated like outcasts in the sport and insulted repeatedly.
> 
> If you're looking for integrity, I suggest you start looking for people going AGAINST the flow, rather than with it.


I don't think I said anything about Betsy should have closed her eyes to the cheating and the knowledge she had on Lance, just disagreed with some of the methods she used to get her word out. For me, it lowers the respect level I have for that person.

Edit: It wasn't my intention to disparage her integrity, but used her as an example of running to the media. I am sorry to have given the wrong impression.


----------



## PaxRomana

love4himies said:


> Edit: It wasn't my intention to disparage her integrity, but used her as an example of running to the media. I am sorry to have given the wrong impression.


In all fairness, where was she going to go? Should she stand by quietly while her husband's career was destroyed and her name dragged through the mud? I think she set a great example of not backing down to a bully. And she won.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread. It's about Hesjedal. I'm curious to see what else comes out in the chicken's book on Monday.


----------



## Local Hero

I agree with PaxRomana. 

It is delusional for cycling fans to see pro cycling as anything more than entertainment. It's not just cycling. I've never really had heroes or idols because I have always known that man is fallible. This isn't cynicism; it's realism. 

It's silly to take anything too seriously. 

Part of this goes to the double entendre in my user name. 

At the same time I understand that many people feel the need to have heroes and idols, just as many people need a team to root for during the superbowl. I don't feel it but I understand why some people do.


----------



## DrSmile

Local Hero said:


> I agree with PaxRomana.
> 
> It is delusional for cycling fans to see pro cycling as anything more than entertainment. It's not just cycling. I've never really had heroes or idols because I have always known that man is fallible. This isn't cynicism; it's realism.
> 
> It's silly to take anything too seriously.
> 
> Part of this goes to the double entendre in my user name.
> 
> At the same time I understand that many people feel the need to have heroes and idols, just as many people need a team to root for during the superbowl. I don't feel it but I understand why some people do.


The problem with this approach is that there is a huge segment of the population that can't rationalize the way that you just did. That segment is... children. When kids see these characters succeeding on TV, they can't help but want to emulate them. Sports in fact relies on exactly this phenomenon to exist in the first place. I don't think I would watch soccer if I hadn't been inundated with it during my formative years.


----------



## asgelle

love4himies said:


> Edit: It wasn't my intention to disparage her integrity, but used her as an example of running to the media. I am sorry to have given the wrong impression.


Based on the facts as I know them (they're summarized nicely in the new book, "Wheelmen") running to the press is hardly an accurate description. A reporter tracked her down and when she was questioned, refused to lie or cover up.

Once the Armstrong propaganda machine turned on her, she did what she could to defend herself including talking to reporters.


----------



## Local Hero

DrSmile said:


> The problem with this approach is that there is a huge segment of the population that can't rationalize the way that you just did. That segment is... children. When kids see these characters succeeding on TV, they can't help but want to emulate them. Sports in fact relies on exactly this phenomenon to exist in the first place. I don't think I would watch soccer if I hadn't been inundated with it during my formative years.


Yes, I agree that hero worship is childish.


----------



## Fireform

*Canadian cyclist Ryder Hesjedal named in doping allegation by Danish cyclist ...*



Local Hero said:


> Yes, I agree that hero worship is childish.


So is deliberately missing the point to try for a cute comeback.


----------



## Local Hero

Fireform said:


> So is deliberately missing the point to try for a cute comeback.


you think I'm cute?


----------



## den bakker

Local Hero said:


> you think I'm cute?


duhr huhr.


----------



## foto

keep the book, i'll just take the danish. mmmmm danish....


----------



## rufus

love4himies said:


> That actually came out before Ryder made his public statement that he did try EPO.


Right, which is why Vaughters issued his 'non-denial denial". Which Ryder then rendered moot by actually fessing up.


----------



## PaxRomana

My impression of Vaughters is that he cares about two words: plausible deniability. I think he's the kind of guy who says "We have a zero tolerance policy. You get caught, and you're out." Emphasis on the word "caught."


----------



## spade2you

PaxRomana said:


> My impression of Vaughters is that he cares about two words: plausible deniability. I think he's the kind of guy who says "We have a zero tolerance policy. You get caught, and you're out." Emphasis on the word "caught."


Kinda like how Vaughters played out his own doping?


----------



## love4himies

It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people can be by doing illegal things that could end their career so out in the open and let so many people know what they are doing. WTF are/were they thinking?


----------



## spade2you

love4himies said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people can be by doing illegal things that could end their career so out in the open and let so many people know what they are doing. WTF are/were they thinking?


They're thinking the rewards are worth the risks. Keep in mind that he probably would have gotten away with it if it weren't for The Chicken.


----------



## spade2you

PaxRomana said:


> Integrity? Is that really it? Because if you're really looking for integrity, I suggest you take a look at Betsy Andreu, whose name you just disparaged.
> 
> Betsy could have gone with the flow just like the other wives and girlfriends, who received the benefit of having their pro cyclist significant other gain fame and fortune through doping (e.g., Kristen Armstrong, Sheryl Crow, Haven Hamilton, etc., etc.).
> 
> She didn't. She told Frankie she would have none of it, and because of that, both she and Frankie were treated like outcasts in the sport and insulted repeatedly.
> 
> If you're looking for integrity, I suggest you start looking for people going AGAINST the flow, rather than with it.


I know the Andreus are saints here, but wouldn't it have been integrity not to dope in the first place and not assist Satan/Armstrong in those wins? Saint Basson's and LeMond didn't dope.


----------



## love4himies

love4himies said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people can be by doing illegal things that could end their career so out in the open and let so many people know what they are doing. WTF are/were they thinking?





spade2you said:


> They're thinking the rewards are worth the risks. Keep in mind that he probably would have gotten away with it if it weren't for The Chicken.


Perhaps. I don't think anybody who doped in front of anybody else will ever be safe from being found out. I bet there are a lot of people who are "looking over their shoulder" so to speak wondering if somebody who witnessed them doping will write a book.


----------



## asgelle

spade2you said:


> I know the Andreus are saints here, but wouldn't it have been integrity not to dope in the first place and not assist Satan/Armstrong in those wins? Saint Basson's and LeMond didn't dope.


And this is relevant to BETSY Andreu how?


----------



## spade2you

asgelle said:


> And this is relevant to BETSY Andreu how?


See, I knew this would offend. Saint Betsy allows her doper husband to coach a team that is lead by Mancebo another "former" doper.


----------



## asgelle

spade2you said:


> See, I knew this would offend. Saint Betsy allows her doper husband to coach a team that is lead by Mancebo another "former" doper.


It doesn't offend, but it would be nice if responses were at least tangentially related to the topic discussed in a quote. So when the discussion is about Betsy Andreu's relationship with the press, bringing up her husband's drug use can only be meant as a distraction or mud slinging.

But when you now veer into holding someone responsible for their spouses action without any direct evidence, you've clearly crossed the line to fantasy mud slinging.


----------



## spade2you

asgelle said:


> It doesn't offend, but it would be nice if responses were at least tangentially related to the topic discussed in a quote. So when the discussion is about Betsy Andreu's relationship with the press, bringing up her husband's drug use can only be meant as a distraction or mud slinging.
> 
> But when you now veer into holding someone responsible for their spouses action without any direct evidence, you've clearly crossed the line to fantasy mud slinging.


Is it not peculiar that her husband was and is potientially part of the doping problem? 

Hell, I think she's 20x more anti-Armstrong than anti-doping. Feel free to argue, report, neg rep, etc.


----------



## den bakker

spade2you said:


> Is it not peculiar that her husband was and is potientially part of the doping problem?
> 
> Hell, I think she's 20x more anti-Armstrong than anti-doping. Feel free to argue, report, neg rep, etc.


duhr huhr


----------



## spade2you

den bakker said:


> duhr huhr


Oh come on, where is the snark? You've lost your spark.


----------



## asgelle

spade2you said:


> Is it not peculiar that her husband was and is potientially part of the doping problem?


Is it peculiar that a reporter would call the wife of someone who was and potentially is part of the doping problem? I don't think so. Why would you find that odd?


----------



## Local Hero

den bakker said:


> duhr huhr.





den bakker said:


> duhr huhr


Use your words.


----------



## Cableguy

PaxRomana said:


> If your "hero" is a professional cyclist, you really need to find better heroes. *The cyclists didn't "betray" you, your common sense did.*


I agree it is naive to put any successful pro cyclist on a pedestal as clean and honest, but most of the blame still falls on the cyclist. The cyclist is ultimately the betrayer. He knows the rules of the sport, and more importantly that the masses expect clean performances... yet still cheats, and furthermore lies about it. I also call that betrayal.


----------



## love4himies

Statement from Seamus 

Statement from Seamus McGrath, Director of Tour de Victoria on His Admission of Doping



> When I became aware of doping in my early 20’s I made a promise to myself to commit to clean sport. I broke this promise to myself in 2003. I’d like to take this chance to apologize first and foremost to my parents who instilled in me strong morals and values which I compromised for a brief period over a decade ago.
> 
> I would also like to apologize to my family, friends, fans and sponsors who supported me during my career, along with my fellow competitors at the time. I disrespected the sport I love and am ashamed of my actions. I broke the rules of sportsmanship and went against what I knew to be right. For this, I will always be sorry.
> 
> I am 100% committed to the development of cycling and will continue to contribute to the positive development of the sport.


----------



## love4himies

I haven't seen any statement from Chris in the Canadian news, but he was recently in a serious crash and is still recuperating (broken back).


----------



## love4himies

Cableguy said:


> The cyclist is ultimately the betrayer. He knows the rules of the sport, and more importantly that the masses expect clean performances... yet still cheats, and furthermore lies about it. I also call that betrayal.


Thanks Cableguy and I agree.


----------



## DrSmile

Cableguy said:


> I agree it is naive to put any successful pro cyclist on a pedestal as clean and honest, but most of the blame still falls on the cyclist. The cyclist is ultimately the betrayer. He knows the rules of the sport, and more importantly that the masses expect clean performances... yet still cheats, and furthermore lies about it. I also call that betrayal.


I don't quite see it that way. The way I look at it the cyclist excels at riding at a young age, and spends many years getting into peak condition in order to get a shot at performing as a Pro. It consumes virtually all of his/her life and it's something he/she loves to do. At this point, he/she notices that everyone else seems to be going faster regardless of how hard he/she trains. Like Tyler states in his book, it quickly becomes apparent that there is no chance of being competitive without taking PEDs. Some people choose to give up their dreams when this becomes apparent... the rest become successful professional cyclists.


----------



## love4himies

DrSmile said:


> I don't quite see it that way. The way I look at it the cyclist excels at riding at a young age, and spends many years getting into peak condition in order to get a shot at performing as a Pro. It consumes virtually all of his/her life and it's something he/she loves to do. At this point, he/she notices that everyone else seems to be going faster regardless of how hard he/she trains. Like Tyler states in his book, it quickly becomes apparent that there is no chance of being competitive without taking PEDs. Some people choose to give up their dreams when this becomes apparent... the rest become successful professional cyclists.


The cyclist is still the one ultimately responsible for stepping over the line and cheating. *They have a choice*, what they don't have a choice in is the consequences of their actions when (if) caught, including the reactions they get from their fans and having to live with the guilt (if they feel any). I do, however, empathize with them and can understand the pressure the young riders feel that pushes them to cross the line in order to succeed in their sport.

Hopefully going forward with more team managers not allowing doping on their teams, talented, young riders will not feel that pressure.


----------



## love4himies

Tweet from JV:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Clarification: if one if my guys is found to have lied to authorities, timeline or otherwise: fired. Nasty truth, I'll stand by. Not lying.</p>— Jonathan Vaughters (@Vaughters) <a href="https://twitter.com/Vaughters/statuses/396314565207932931">November 1, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


I hope he wasn't lying about not doping while on Discovery. Somehow I find it hard to believe he wasn't.


----------



## Cableguy

DrSmile said:


> I don't quite see it that way. The way I look at it the cyclist excels at riding at a young age, and spends many years getting into peak condition in order to get a shot at performing as a Pro. It consumes virtually all of his/her life and it's something he/she loves to do. At this point, he/she notices that everyone else seems to be going faster regardless of how hard he/she trains. Like Tyler states in his book, it quickly becomes apparent that there is no chance of being competitive without taking PEDs. Some people choose to give up their dreams when this becomes apparent... the rest become successful professional cyclists.


Even if it was as black and white as this, I'd still maintain the cyclist is a fraud who is betraying the fans. In your fairytale of the well intentioned cyclist above, I sympathize with the cyclist's situaton as it is a hard one for sure. He has to make the decision, is the new realization of his "dream" still worth it? Is it worth being paid to race your bike for a living, if you now have to put drugs into your body and become a liar and a cheat to your fans? He's not necessarily a terrible person for jumping at the dangling carrot, but I still maintain he's betraying the fans. Someone was trying to put all the blame on the fans which is bogus to me. 

And there really is no cheating "just" to be "competitive"... as if to imply a well intentioned cyclist will dial back the dosage purely out of fairness. The reason they succumb to cheating is because they *know* other cyclists/teams are cheating. It becomes a matter of what can you get away with, because in all liklihood someone is getting away with more than you. No, fairness goes straight out the window at this point. It's all a matter of risk of getting caught vs cost vs reward.


----------



## Local Hero

DrSmile said:


> I don't quite see it that way. The way I look at it the cyclist excels at riding at a young age, and spends many years getting into peak condition in order to get a shot at performing as a Pro. It consumes virtually all of his/her life and it's something he/she loves to do. At this point, he/she notices that everyone else seems to be going faster regardless of how hard he/she trains. Like Tyler states in his book, it quickly becomes apparent that there is no chance of being competitive without taking PEDs. Some people choose to give up their dreams when this becomes apparent... the rest become successful professional cyclists.


I toatlly understand that. I get it -- they really, really want to be pro cyclists and the choice is to cheat or the unthinkable, to give up on their dream. It could not have been easy. 

Then again, I childhood fantasies too. While I was never as gifted as most of these guys -- guys who won jr national titles -- I was a collegiate athlete. But when I realized that I wasn't athletic enough to go to the NFL, I was not fast enough to run for a living, and I was not skilled enough to play professional soccer, I took school seriously and went for a real career. 

I'm not angry with any pro for cheating. Like I said I understand it. It could not have been an easy decision. But I don't have sympathy with people who discard their ethics in order to fulfill a fantasy, especially when the alternative to their fantasy is the life of a working stiff, just like the rest of everyone else. 



love4himies said:


> Tweet from JV:
> 
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Clarification: if one if my guys is found to have lied to authorities, timeline or otherwise: fired. Nasty truth, I'll stand by. Not lying.</p>— Jonathan Vaughters (@Vaughters) <a href="https://twitter.com/Vaughters/statuses/396314565207932931">November 1, 2013</a></blockquote>
> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
> 
> 
> I hope he wasn't lying about not doping while on Discovery. Somehow I find it hard to believe he wasn't.


That's an odd line if you ask me. 

It's OK if they cheated in the past...but it's not OK if they lied about cheating in the past?


----------



## love4himies

Local Hero said:


> That's an odd line if you ask me.
> 
> It's OK if they cheated in the past...but it's not OK if they lied about cheating in the past?


I think he will forgive if you doped before he hired you, but don't dope or lie while you are on his team. So he's saying if Ryder lied to the USADA about his timeline on doping he will fire him.


----------



## The Tedinator

love4himies said:


> I think he will forgive if you doped before he hired you, but don't dope or lie while you are on his team. So he's saying if Ryder lied to the USADA about his timeline on doping he will fire him.


Then he will get fired. When J.B. has his day in court, I am hoping he goes full nuclear and drops names from Hein and Phat Pat all the way down to Ryder and the others. Didn't dope after leaving MTBiking and riding road with USPS and then Phonak? Right!

I am starting to get more p!ssed at these mealy mouth "I am sorry that I doped" yada yada, only did it once, quit in 2003 (or 04, 06, 0-whatever), and just want to move forward douchenozzles like CVV, Danielson, Levi, Ryder, Zabriskie, O'Grady, etc. etc. etc.

Give me an unrepentant Ricco or Wonderboy lying on his couch under his 7 jerseys anyday!

And another thing, isn't it just INCREDIBLE that all these guys quit their doping 8 years ago! Damn those pesky Statue of Limitations. Not only did they quit, but now that they are "clean", they have the best years of their careers. Yes, I am looking at you, Mr. 2012 Giro winner.


----------



## atpjunkie

Local Hero said:


> Do we care if people took drugs in 2003?
> 
> I don't remember if this is important.


it depends on the person

some folks would say 'strip him of everything' if his name was different


----------



## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.





PaxRomana said:


> Just because people are naive enough to believe their favorite cyclist is the "clean" one doesn't earn them any sort of "respect".
> 
> If your "hero" is a professional cyclist, you really need to find better heroes. The cyclists didn't "betray" you, your common sense did.


I still like Museeuw. Watching him win P-R after nearly losing part of a leg to it was one of the great moments in modern cycling. BFD he doped, so did everyone else.


----------



## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.





love4himies said:


> I think he will forgive if you doped before he hired you, but don't dope or lie while you are on his team. So he's saying if Ryder lied to the USADA about his timeline on doping he will fire him.


like Hamilton and Floyd were busted for dope while riding for CSC and Phonak, Rabobank had a huge organized doping program as did Festina, ONCE, Liberty Seuguros and TKom. Somehow though, this is all Johann's fault.


----------



## sir duke

atpjunkie said:


> it depends on the person
> 
> some folks would say 'strip him of everything' if his name was different


'Different' Armstrong is a doper?? Hoo noo?


----------



## spade2you

atpjunkie said:


> like Hamilton and Floyd were busted for dope while riding for CSC and Phonak, Rabobank had a huge organized doping program as did Festina, ONCE, Liberty Seuguros and TKom. Somehow though, this is all Johann's fault.


You forgot Kelme, TVM, Banesto, PDM. Er wait, are there any teams that were clean without a doubt??


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

atpjunkie said:


> like Hamilton and Floyd were busted for dope while riding for CSC and Phonak, Rabobank had a huge organized doping program as did Festina, ONCE, Liberty Seuguros and TKom. Somehow though, this is all Johann's fault.


Who is saying it is all Johan's fault? 

Riis is currently the target of an investigation by ADD. They have interviewed many of his riders. His goose is cooked

Lienders is currently the target of both a criminal and ADA investigation in Belgium. He is also cooked

Hard to say Rabo, Phonak, and CSC had programs on par with USPS. If they did their riders would not have been forced to use Fuentes and Humaplasma. 

Johan is not a victim


----------



## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.





Doctor Falsetti said:


> Who is saying it is all Johan's fault?
> 
> Riis is currently the target of an investigation by ADD. They have interviewed many of his riders. His goose is cooked
> 
> Lienders is currently the target of both a criminal and ADA investigation in Belgium. He is also cooked
> 
> Hard to say Rabo, Phonak, and CSC had programs on par with USPS. If they did their riders would not have been forced to use Fuentes and Humaplasma.
> 
> Johan is not a victim


Johan is not a victim, but he is no more of a perp than any other DS of that era. 
I just tire of the Lance / Johan bashing. It is not a just system that one rider who admits doping is stripped of everything while other admitted dopers maintain their palmares


----------



## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.





spade2you said:


> You forgot Kelme, TVM, Banesto, PDM. Er wait, are there any teams that were clean without a doubt??


exactly, Teams that long predated USPS, but somehow they're the only bad guys


----------



## spade2you

atpjunkie said:


> exactly, Teams that long predated USPS, but somehow they're the only bad guys


Meanwhile doping is alive and well. I still think it's kinda funny that nobody has the stones to touch Big Mig. 

LOL, perhaps it's a take home message to be nice, unlike Lance. I've always told people that a golden rule at a hospital is that if you're not the best at your job, you gotta be nice, otherwise people notice fast.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

atpjunkie said:


> I just tire of the Lance / Johan bashing.


This is an American, English language forum. Why are you surprise lance is talked about more then Ricco? 



atpjunkie said:


> It is not a just system that one rider who admits doping is stripped of everything while other admitted dopers maintain their palmares


Do you think a doper who obstructs an investigation, sues USADA in Federal courts, rejects multiple requests for testimony, launches a media campaign to smear Travis and USADA, uses foundations funds to lobby lawmakers to de-fund USADA, etc should be treated the same as a rider who walked in and told what they knew about an organized doping program? Do you really equate Oprah with a meeting with USADA? Really? 

Who is maintaining their Palmares? Not Levi, not George, they have been stripped of their results. 

Lance should keep his wins because he talked to a talk show host? Really?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

spade2you said:


> Meanwhile doping is alive and well. I still think it's kinda funny that nobody has the stones to touch Big Mig.


Nice strawman.....Nobody has the authority to touch Big Mig. He never signed the WADA code.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

atpjunkie said:


> exactly, Teams that long predated USPS, but somehow they're the only bad guys


Do you really think USPS are portrayed as the only bad guys? 

You do realize there were criminal sentences, including jail time and fines in the Festina affair right? Are you aware that Ullrich was fined more then $1,000,000, stripped of his results? Heinrich and Shmid are both barred from practicing medicine and fined. Basso, Scarponi, Valverde, all served bans. Di Lucca is about to be banned for life. His doctor was banned for life 2 years ago. 

I could go on and on but to pretend that it USPS is being singled out is nonsense


----------



## spade2you

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nice strawman.....Nobody has the authority to touch Big Mig. He never signed the WADA code.


So doping outside of WADA is ok. Got it.


----------



## spade2you

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Who is maintaining their Palmares?


Basso, Ulrich, Pantani, Hejedal, Scarponi, Garzelli, basically anyone who won during that era. Hell, Valverde's suspension was set to start after he won the Vuelta, which you will inevitably excuse due to bla bla bla technicality.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

spade2you said:


> So doping outside of WADA is ok. Got it.


Clearly you do not get it......or just like strawmen

There is no structure in place to sanction Indurain, which only further validates the value the WADA code has brought to the sport


----------



## spade2you

Doctor Falsetti said:


> or just like strawmen


Nah, I'm into chicks.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

spade2you said:


> Basso, Ulrich, Pantani, Hejedal, Scarponi, Garzelli, basically anyone who won during that era. Hell, Valverde's suspension was set to start after he won the Vuelta, which you will inevitably excuse due to bla bla bla technicality.


Nope.

Basso, Ullrich, Scarponi, Garzelli, Valverde, were all stripped of results. Pantani died 8 months prior to the UCI signing the WADA code.


----------



## spade2you

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nope.
> 
> Basso, Ullrich, Scarponi, Garzelli, Valverde, were all stripped of results. Pantani died 8 months prior to the UCI signing the WADA code.


Pantani and Ullrich are still listed as winners. As is Basso for the 2006 Giro right before he got busted. 

Nothing even came about Scarponi's investigation for 2011 (yet, hell probably won't). 

Valverde has not been stripped of the 2009 Vuelta. Garzelli still has his 2000 Giro.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

I wonder if Ryder didn't say anything publically because he was bound by a non-disclosure agreement made in exchange for his testimony?

That's not an excuse, just a thought. Also, he may have told Vaughters everything, but been told not to divulge anything publically on orders from team lawyers. Once he starts talking, he could implicate someone else, and then lawsuits start. Being open and honest could be more difficult than it looks to an armchair moralist.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Pantani...the guy cheated just as bad if not worse than Lance and yet he is worshipped as a tragic victim. Baffling.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

spade2you said:


> Pantani and Ullrich are still listed as winners. As is Basso for the 2006 Giro right before he got busted.
> 
> Nothing even came about Scarponi's investigation for 2011 (yet, hell probably won't).
> 
> Valverde has not been stripped of the 2009 Vuelta. Garzelli still has his 2000 Giro.


and Lance is still listed as winner of the Worlds. 

Jan Ullrich banned for two years, stripped of 2005 Tour third place - ESPN



> Ullrich is banned from cycling through Aug. 21, 2013, and all his results from May 1, 2005, until his retirement are annulled.


Spanish cyclist Alejandro Valverde gets two-year doping ban, 2010 results stripped - NY Daily News

If you have evidence that could result in more results getting stripped I suggest you give it to CONI


----------



## spade2you

Doctor Falsetti said:


> and Lance is still listed as winner of the Worlds.
> 
> Jan Ullrich banned for two years, stripped of 2005 Tour third place - ESPN
> 
> 
> 
> Spanish cyclist Alejandro Valverde gets two-year doping ban, 2010 results stripped - NY Daily News
> 
> If you have evidence that could result in more results getting stripped I suggest you give it to CONI





> LAUSANNE, Switzerland - Spanish cyclist Alejandro Valverde received a global two-year ban Monday for his connection to a blood-doping ring, but was allowed to keep his 2009 Spanish Vuelta victory.
> 
> 
> Read more: Spanish cyclist Alejandro Valverde gets two-year doping ban, 2010 results stripped - NY Daily News


Minor slaps on the wrist. Valverde's suspension conveniently starts after the Vuelta he won. 

Jan loses just one of his TdF podiums while retaining his '97 win. Big whoop.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

spade2you said:


> Minor slaps on the wrist. Valverde's suspension conveniently starts after the Vuelta he won.
> 
> Jan loses just one of his TdF podiums while retaining his '97 win. Big whoop.


Since when is a $1,000,000 minor? If you have evidence of their doping outside of those time periods I suggest you get in touch with CONI

Did you also think Tyler, Floyd, were singled out? Funny I did not see you here complaining about Jan's unjust treatment when he was fined $1,000,000, sanctioned for 2 years, and has his results stripped. Are you going to protest when Di Lucca is banned for life? ......or is it only about one guy for you?


----------



## den bakker

Doctor Falsetti said:


> ......or is it only about one guy for you?


yes. himself.


----------



## spade2you

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Since when is a $1,000,000 minor? If you have evidence of their doping outside of those time periods I suggest you get in touch with CONI


Not a horrible price to pay after winning a TdF and a Vuelta, multiple stage wins, a world championship in the ITT, many other stage races, etc. 



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Did you also think Tyler, Floyd, were singled out? Funny I did not see you here complaining about Jan's unjust treatment when he was fined $1,000,000, sanctioned for 2 years, and has his results stripped. Are you going to protest when Di Lucca is banned for life? ......or is it only about one guy for you?


Actually, if you look at it it was mostly Americans who were retrospectively stripped of results during this era. 

Di Lucca is a tragic hero. I think a lifetime ban is too long. He can serve the same length of ban that Tyler is serving.


----------



## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.





Doctor Falsetti said:


> This is an American, English language forum. Why are you surprise lance is talked about more then Ricco?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think a doper who obstructs an investigation, sues USADA in Federal courts, rejects multiple requests for testimony, launches a media campaign to smear Travis and USADA, uses foundations funds to lobby lawmakers to de-fund USADA, etc should be treated the same as a rider who walked in and told what they knew about an organized doping program? Do you really equate Oprah with a meeting with USADA? Really?
> 
> Who is maintaining their Palmares? Not Levi, not George, they have been stripped of their results.
> 
> Lance should keep his wins because he talked to a talk show host? Really?


here let me simplify
Lance admits doping - gets stripped of everything

other riders admit doping - get stripped of very little

is that equitable?

Look I'm not defending Lance, as I have said, he's guilty and he was an a hole which is why he's receiving so much more than anyone else.

Palmares? Last I checked Jan, Vino, Kloden, Basso, Valverde. Some have been stripped of the title they won when they were busted, none have been stripped of everything. Lance turned in his Olympic Medal, he lost to 2 dopers and the road race podium was a single team dope triumvirate.


----------



## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.





spade2you said:


> Minor slaps on the wrist. Valverde's suspension conveniently starts after the Vuelta he won.
> 
> Jan loses just one of his TdF podiums while retaining his '97 win. Big whoop.


maintains all his podiums but one and his Olympic Medal

since he was second why don't they award him the victory? Cause they know he doped, so then strip him.


----------



## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.





Doctor Falsetti said:


> Since when is a $1,000,000 minor? If you have evidence of their doping outside of those time periods I suggest you get in touch with CONI
> 
> Did you also think Tyler, Floyd, were singled out? Funny I did not see you here complaining about Jan's unjust treatment when he was fined $1,000,000, sanctioned for 2 years, and has his results stripped. Are you going to protest when Di Lucca is banned for life? ......or is it only about one guy for you?


How many busts for DiLuca did it take? Again, Jan was not stripped of almost EVERYTHING, it's really frigging simple. 
Again, I'm all for punishing the guilty and if you want to make LA the fall guy, great. Just use his punishment as the benchmark. If not, it is nothing more than a witch hunt. The UCI and WADA think they can dump everything on Lance and act like they are saving cycling. It is freaking window dressing as they are not treating the other cases with such vigor. Nor are they really moving forward with all the talk of them brushing riders transgressions under the carpet in the years since the ALA era


----------



## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> I think it works like this:
> 
> Nice guy = pass.
> 
> Dick = hang him by his nuts.





Cinelli 82220 said:


> Pantani...the guy cheated just as bad if not worse than Lance and yet he is worshipped as a tragic victim. Baffling.


and I'm gonna guess Pantani was in the same 'jerk' category as Lance. But we don' speak ill of the dead. But think about it, the battles between a doped Lance and a Doped Marco and a Doped Jan and a doped up Ivan were still great battles.


----------



## spade2you

The fact that Vino holds a Vuelta title is laughable and speaks volumes.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

atpjunkie said:


> How many busts for DiLuca did it take? Again, Jan was not stripped of almost EVERYTHING, it's really frigging simple.
> Again, I'm all for punishing the guilty and if you want to make LA the fall guy, great. Just use his punishment as the benchmark. If not, it is nothing more than a witch hunt. The UCI and WADA think they can dump everything on Lance and act like they are saving cycling. It is freaking window dressing as they are not treating the other cases with such vigor. Nor are they really moving forward with all the talk of them brushing riders transgressions under the carpet in the years since the ALA era


Nonsense. Lance is not a fall guy. 

I agree that we should use Lance as a benchmark.... for evidence. USADA had over a dozen direct witnesses, positive tests, questionable blood values. NADA investigated Jan for a decade, they even had the support of the German Feds....they hardly found anything. I am not saying that Jan was not a doper, he is. He should be stripped. But if you are going to strip multiple years you better have a lot of evidence. USADA had over a thousand pages. NADA hardly had any

It is really friggen simple. *You* might want to sanction without evidence, reach back decades to sanction riders who never signed the WADA code but it does not work that way.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

atpjunkie said:


> and I'm gonna guess Pantani was in the same 'jerk' category as Lance. But we don' speak ill of the dead. But think about it, the battles between a doped Lance and a Doped Marco and a Doped Jan and a doped up Ivan were still great battles.


Dope = boring. With the exception of 2003 Armstrong, Pantani, and Jan delivered a decade of spectacularly boring racing.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

atpjunkie said:


> The UCI and WADA think they can dump everything on Lance and act like they are saving cycling. It is freaking window dressing as they are not treating the other cases with such vigor.


Nonsense. 

The UCI pursued Ullrich for years. They eventually banned him 7 years after he retired. The UCI even took his case to CAS twice when SOV could not make it stick. 

Meanwhile the UCI covered up multiple positive tests for Armstrong. The UCI actively impeded USADA's investigation......did they do the same for Jan? No

While the UCI aggressively pursued Jan and ignored lance were you here screaming for justice? Nope

Face it, Armstrong got off easy for over a decade. While Basso, Heras, Hamilton, Landis, Pantani, Berzin, etc, etc, were getting sanctions I did not see you here crying that they were targets of a "Witch Hunt"? Why not?


----------



## NextTime

It's kind of fun to not pay any attention to these boards for an extended period, parachute in to a discussion like this, and discover just how deep some people get into these things. So deep that some people start to believe their own b.s. and their commentary lacks credibility and impartiality.

There's no question that all dopers aren't treated equally - some are treated way more harshly then others. Please, it's patently obvious.

BTW, any doping = bad.

Flame on!


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

NextTime said:


> There's no question that all dopers aren't treated equally - some are treated way more harshly then others. Please, it's patently obvious.


Yup, the UCI ignored Armstrong's doping for a decade but went after Mayo, Heras, Ullrich, Landis, and Hamilton with a vengeance.


----------



## spade2you

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Dope = boring. With the exception of 2003 Armstrong, Pantani, and Jan delivered a decade of spectacularly boring racing.


Even LeMond was racing against dopers.


----------



## The Tedinator

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> The UCI pursued Ullrich for years. They eventually banned him 7 years after he retired. The UCI even took his case to CAS twice when SOV could not make it stick.
> 
> Meanwhile the UCI covered up multiple positive tests for Armstrong. The UCI actively impeded USADA's investigation......did they do the same for Jan? No
> 
> While the UCI aggressively pursued Jan and ignored lance were you here screaming for justice? Nope
> 
> Face it, Armstrong got off easy for over a decade. While Basso, Heras, Hamilton, Landis, Pantani, Berzin, etc, etc, were getting sanctions I did not see you here crying that they were targets of a "Witch Hunt"? Why not?


You know, this is a very interesting post. I wonder why the UCI went after Der Kaiser so hard but gave Wonderboy carte blanche? Trying to grow the sport ($$$$) in Amerika and the rest of the Anglo world?


----------



## love4himies

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I wonder if Ryder didn't say anything publically because he was bound by a non-disclosure agreement made in exchange for his testimony?
> 
> That's not an excuse, just a thought. Also, he may have told Vaughters everything, but been told not to divulge anything publically on orders from team lawyers. Once he starts talking, he could implicate someone else, and then lawsuits start. Being open and honest could be more difficult than it looks to an armchair moralist.


I thought I read something from JV that they were waiting for an investigation to be complete, but there were no specifics. 


I was talking to a bike store owner today whose son is rated in the top 20 downhillers in the world and she was saying that she honestly doesn't know how she would react if her son were to start on dope (she did say that dope is a non issue in downhill). She said it's easy for armchair racers to take the moral high ground, but when you put your whole life into racing and everybody else was doping, as was happening back in the late 90's to mid 2000's, and there was no way to win no matter how hard you worked at it, it would be a lot harder to say no to doping. Very few of us in the world have been in that situation and had to make that decision so most of us don't know truly what choice we would make.


----------



## sir duke

atpjunkie said:


> here let me simplify
> Lance admits doping - gets stripped of everything
> 
> other riders admit doping - get stripped of very little
> 
> is that equitable?
> 
> Look I'm not defending Lance, as I have said, he's guilty and he was an a hole which is why he's receiving so much more than anyone else.
> 
> Palmares? Last I checked Jan, Vino, Kloden, Basso, Valverde. Some have been stripped of the title they won when they were busted, none have been stripped of everything. Lance turned in his Olympic Medal, he lost to 2 dopers and the road race podium was a single team dope triumvirate.


You don't simplify too well do you? Lance gets sanctioned after using every legal avenue, gets stripped by UCI, gets defiant, realises that won't work, THEN makes a limited admission in Tinseltown. Try harder.


----------



## love4himies

spade2you said:


> I've always told people that a golden rule at a hospital is that if you're not the best at your job, you gotta be nice, otherwise people notice fast.


I think that's the rule everywhere.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

love4himies said:


> Very few of us in the world have been in that situation and had to make that decision so most of us don't know truly what choice we would make.


Disagree...Almost everyone has been in a situation where we wanted something real bad and could get it by breaking the law.

Most of us know it would be wrong and don't do it.


----------



## grandprix

Doctor Falsetti said:


> They eventually banned him 7 years after he retired.


Wow, a ban after a guy retires. That'll show those dopers not to dope.

Do you really believe the UCI pursued Ullrich with vigor?


----------



## love4himies

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Disagree...Almost everyone has been in a situation where we wanted something real bad and could get it by breaking the law.
> 
> Most of us know it would be wrong and don't do it.


I should have been more specific, when 99% of the people are doing it. I guess I could use pot for example. How many people smoke it in college/university knowing it's against the law, but choose to do it anyways? They know it can ruin future careers. How many of us speed on the highway knowing that extra speed could be the difference between an accident and avoiding one but we risk it anyways because everybody else speeds? 

How many of us have had to give up a life long dream because we have chosen not to do what 99% of the people in our field were doing and was encouraged by our mentors and bosses to do? I'm not justifying the use of dope, but just trying to empathize with what young riders went through. 

Things just don't seem to be so "evil" if everybody is doing it.


----------



## love4himies

In Lostvikings link: Saxo Bank gives its backing to Riis following Rasmussen allegations



> Meanwhile more details have emerged about Rasmussen’s accusation that the UCI had not acted in 2005 when he had clear signs of doping during that year’s Tour. He writes that his value of immature red blood cells [reticulocytes] was just 0.23, under the minimum threshold of 0.3. However he stated that the UCI let him continue in the race, even though there were other suspicious samples.





> “Doctor Leinders and doctor Mario Zorzoli, the head of the UCI's Medical Department, had a meeting where they talked the matter over. When it was over, I was allowed to ride on. No cause for alarm.
> 
> "Afterwards Dr Leinders told me what had happened. He used a Dutch expression: 'we have butter on the minds'. They glide by, cases. Rabobank had a good relationship with the UCI; We had figured it out amicably '.
> 
> He added that Leinders told him that he was “the most protected rider in Tour de France right now.”


Yup, no favoritism going on there.


----------



## The Tedinator

That news about Leinders is eye opening. We aren't talking Fuentes sloppiness here, but someone who rivals Ferrari in his expertise and influence; at least with Phat Pat and the UCI.

This should get the Sky Fanbois and interns in full damage control mode. Bet Sir Wiggins wishes he could edit the gushings about Leinders out of his autobiography now.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

The Tedinator said:


> That news about Leinders is eye opening. We aren't talking Fuentes sloppiness here, but someone who rivals Ferrari in his expertise and influence; at least with Phat Pat and the UCI.
> 
> This should get the Sky Fanbois and interns in full damage control mode. Bet Sir Wiggins wishes he could edit the gushings about Leinders out of his autobiography now.


I am not sure I would put Lienders in Ferrari territory, more like Del Moral or Marti. An administrator of a program not a designer. Like most teams Rabo stopped having a team program and the riders started providers like Humaplasma. 

As for getting the UCI to ignore Rass' readings, Rass has the numbers wrong. He said that if he was under .25 the UCI could force him to withdraw, but the rules at the time actually set the UCI limit at .20.


----------



## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> As for getting the UCI to ignore Rass' readings, Rass has the numbers wrong. He said that if he was under .25 the UCI could force him to withdraw, but the rules at the time actually set the UCI limit at .20.


Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## DrSmile

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Like most teams Rabo stopped having a team program and the riders started providers like Humaplasma.


I'm curious how you can be sure of this. Is this from Ras's book?

Oh and just to remind everyone that Doctor Geert Leinders was employed by Team Sky until 2012...


----------



## den bakker

DrSmile;4492467
Oh and just to remind everyone that Doctor Geert Leinders was employed by Team Sky until 2012...[/QUOTE said:


> well it has been 4 hours since last reminder


----------



## spade2you

Doping allegations against Team Sky are sheer and utter drivel.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

DrSmile said:


> I'm curious how you can be sure of this. Is this from Ras's book?
> 
> Oh and just to remind everyone that Doctor Geert Leinders was employed by Team Sky until 2012...


Several sources. Rass' book and Theo de Rooij say that Rabo tolerated doping. They would get help and guidance from the staff but they ran their own programs. The staff' primary responsibility was to make sure they did not take to many big risks. 

Many of the riders went to Humapalsma in early 2003 when it was clear they had to jump into the new methods of transfusions. Funny that while some like to pretend that "Everyone was doing it" Most of the Rabo team did not do transfusions. Rass did not do his first until 2005 and most of the others never went to Vienna. 

Rass went into detail today. He said today in an interview that 100% of the Rabo 2007 Tour team doped: Menchov, Boogerd, De Groot, Dekker, Flecha, Freire, Niermann, Weening. He also said that not all of them took the same program or same risk. He closed with saying that it is possible now to run a clean team


----------



## spade2you

love4himies said:


> I think that's the rule everywhere.


A "few" people violate this rule at the hospital. I'm often baffled how they're not canned.


----------



## DrSmile

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Rass went into detail today. He said today in an interview that 100% of the Rabo 2007 Tour team doped: Menchov, Boogerd, De Groot, Dekker, Flecha, Freire, Niermann, Weening. He also said that not all of them took the same program or same risk. He closed with saying that it is possible now to run a clean team


So we've just advanced the doping era another two years right? Everybody stopped in 2008 now?


----------



## The Tedinator

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I am not sure I would put Lienders in Ferrari territory, more like Del Moral or Marti. An administrator of a program not a designer. Like most teams Rabo stopped having a team program and the riders started providers like Humaplasma.
> 
> As for getting the UCI to ignore Rass' readings, Rass has the numbers wrong. He said that if he was under .25 the UCI could force him to withdraw, but the rules at the time actually set the UCI limit at .20.


You gotta admit though; he had/has something Ferrari didn't have: a "working" relationship with Phat Pat and the UCI.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Flecha


Explains his sudden departure from Sky. 

"Flecha? Who? Never 'eard of him mate."


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

The Tedinator said:


> You gotta admit though; he had/has something Ferrari didn't have: a "working" relationship with Phat Pat and the UCI.


Ferrari did not need it. 

Lance and Verbruggen were business partners on several deals, including one that attempted to buy the Tour. Stapleton worked with Verbruggen when they both were IOC board members.....and Och, the godfather to Armstrong's son, managed millions of dollars for Verbruggen while working at Weisel Securities, the owner of the Tailwind sports. Oh, and the guy who did the transfusions for USPS? He worked for the UCI as the doping inspector in Belgium. 

No rider had the access to the UCI Lance had. Not even close.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

DrSmile said:


> So we've just advanced the doping era another two years right? Everybody stopped in 2008 now?


Wasn't that the line already? Levi said he did not stop until after the 2007 season was over.

I am not sure but I think Rass continued to dope until 2010


----------



## The Tedinator

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Ferrari did not need it.
> 
> Lance and Verbruggen were business partners on several deals, including one that attempted to buy the Tour. Stapleton worked with Verbruggen when they both were IOC board members.....and Och, the godfather to Armstrong's son, managed millions of dollars for Verbruggen while working at Weisel Securities, the owner of the Tailwind sports. Oh, and the guy who did the transfusions for USPS? He worked for the UCI as the doping inspector in Belgium.
> 
> No rider had the access to the UCI Lance had. Not even close.


I disagree. Ferrari did need it. More than one Ferrari client failed a test, no? To date, I know of no Leinders rider who has failed a test nor tripped the ABP. Ferrari has been toxic to the UCI and the press since the late 90's, early 00's. Leinders would still be practicing his dark arts with Sky if it wasn't for the Chicken.


----------



## spade2you

ALL Rabo '07 TdF riders doped.

Rasmussen Retracts Doping Allegations Against Freire, Flecha | Cyclingnews.com

ORLY?!


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

spade2you said:


> ALL Rabo '07 TdF riders doped.
> 
> Rasmussen Retracts Doping Allegations Against Freire, Flecha | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> ORLY?!


So much for the "Everyone was doing it" myth


----------



## spade2you

Doctor Falsetti said:


> So much for the "Everyone was doing it" myth


They quit after 2006.


----------



## Local Hero

Friere threatened a lawsuit? 

How very Lance Armstrong of him!


----------



## spade2you

Perhaps Ryder wishes he saw this a few days ago?


----------



## love4himies

spade2you said:


> Perhaps Ryder wishes he saw this a few days ago?


He had already given testimony to USADA this last winter that he doped.


----------

