# Etiquette for hammerfest group rides (AKA Tuesday Night Worlds)



## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

Dudes; my last attempt at discussion of etiquette for hammerfest seemed to have been totally miss read. In my initial thread I was simply asking what others thought good etiquette was for these rides. I hoped the thread would be a discussion of how etiquette for hard rides but it seems most people just did not fully read the initial post or were not familiar with the concept of hard group rides.

Hopefully get a better discussion going if we try for a fresh start.

First of all, we are talking about HARD rides with guys who race and/or want solid training. These rides exist in lots of areas and are generally fast (22+mph) there are usually no fixed rules and no leader but as always it is good to understand etiquette.

These rides are not races and because the goal is to get good training. Nothing is on the line other then quality training.

My personal rules of etiquette are as follows:
1) HTFU or don't show up
2) Work hard on the front. 
3) Tempo on climbs, Hammer flats/descents
4) Don't "attack" the group
6) (add your "rules" here)<share your="" rules="" of="" etiquette="" here="">

There it is! my own rules of style.

I will expand a little......

*Rule #1 -- HTFU or don't show up*
Hard rides are not for everyone. If you are not in the mood for hard training don't show to a super hard ride.

*Rule #2 Work hard on the front*
Don't go easy on the front. If you are up front you need to be driving your maximal pace and you need to roll off before you fade. Remember that others want to work because they are trying to get solid training. If someone spends weak time on the front they are simply wasting time.

*Rule #3 Tempo on climbs, Hammer flats/descents*
The idea is to ride hard but on group rides we don't need to drop others. When climbing people don't get much benefit from the draft so if you are strong you need to go tempo on the climb when it is clear others will get dropped. Hammer on the flats and descents where the people behind you are sheltering in your draft.

*Rule #4 -- Don't "attack" the group*
A lot of guys show up to these rides thinking they will "attack". The reason that this is bad style is because it results in dudes not working hard. When the attackers show the pack gets a go slow/fast model where they are going slow waiting for the attack then going hard responding to the attack. People can get dropped and stuck out 20 miles from the start with no one to draft off of. Also the ride dynamic becomes a PITA such that the workout effect is weak. You get a few minutes of great hard work mixed with a ton of time were the group is just doing negative training by not working hard because they are worried about the next attack.

Also, when I am on rides like this I often drive my own pace super hard on a flat or even a downhill to get solid training while the group has maximal benefit of draft. If someone is a wheel sucker and puts in a solid attack on a climb right after I complete a three minute pull it can cause me to go off the back. Attacking on a pull after someone just buried themselves with a massive pull is just not cool. Attacks create a climate where people are not comfortable working hard because they fear getting attacked. The result is weak training for everyone including the attacker because efforts are short with a lot of junk time.</share>


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Read between the lines, and it's clear you want to hammer on the front (you're attacking whether you put it in those terms or not), but don't want to get dropped on climbs (which you apparently do)...hence the necessity for Rule #3.

Your Rules are set up to favor sprinters over climbers...because you get dropped on climbs, but are an Alpha on the flats. 

Don't worry, the climbers will kindly wait at the top for you and the others who got dropped. It's the climbers' reward for getting their legs ripped off by you in the flats.

Rule#2 and Rule #4 are contradictory (Rule #2 - Go at Maximum Effort. Rule #4 - Don't Attack the Group).

Too funny.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

farnsworth said:


> Dudes; my last attempt at discussion of etiquette for hammerfest seemed to have been totally miss read.
> 
> I hoped the thread would be a discussion of how etiquette for hard rides but it seems most people just did not fully read the initial post or were not familiar with the concept of hard group rides.


Holy bejebus. Stop blaming others for your inability to communicate your "ideas". 

Everyone who spanked you in the other thread knows what a hard group ride is. You're new here, but believe it or not, you're not the only one here to race or ride a hammerfest.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

farnsworth said:


> <share your="" rules="" of="" etiquette="" here="">
> *Rule #4 -- Don't "attack" the group*
> A lot of guys show up to these rides thinking they will "attack". The reason that this is bad style is because it results in dudes not working hard. .</share>



A hammerfest ride is a race simulation ride. Attacking is pretty much all you do.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

farnsworth said:


> <share your="" rules="" of="" etiquette="" here=""> If someone is a wheel sucker and puts in a solid attack on a climb right after I complete a three minute pull it can cause me to go off the back. Attacking on a pull after someone just buried themselves with a massive pull is just not cool. </share>


Yes, it is. Don't get up there and pull all out, then. That's dumb to do in a race (except for very specific circumstances) and dumb to do in a ride. If someone is up front pulling flat out for three minutes on a group ride then they don't know what they're doing. Maybe if they're attacked and dropped they'll figure it out.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

If you already know what your rules for etiquette are, then why do you want anyone else's input ? 

You got other people's opinions in the other post and apparently didn't like them.

weird....just weird.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

tvad said:


> Read between the lines, and its clear you want to hammer on the front (you're attacking whether you put it in those terms or not), but don't want to get dropped on climbs (which you apparently do)...hence the necessity for Rule #3.
> 
> Your Rules are set up to favor sprinters over climbers...because you get dropped on climbs, but are an Alpha on the flats.
> 
> ...


LMAO yes it's full of fail, chest thumping, and hypocrisy. Rule #1 is contradictory as well. HTFU... but please don't make me work on the climbs. Waaaaa.
Nothing pisses me off more when the big guns on a hammerfest want to soft pedal up the hills. WTF.. HTFU and pedal.

Rule #4 is quite funny too. Don't "attack" the group... coming from the guy who likes to play games with others. In his other thread he talked about the group of 10 dwindling down to 5... then 4... then 3.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

farnsworth said:


> Dudes; my last attempt at discussion of etiquette for hammerfest seemed to have been totally miss read. In my initial thread I was simply asking what others thought good etiquette was for these rides. I hoped the thread would be a discussion of how etiquette for hard rides but it seems most people just did not fully read the initial post or were not familiar with the concept of hard group rides.
> 
> Hopefully get a better discussion going if we try for a fresh start.
> 
> ...


You clearly don't understand the yellowdot ride at all. Its a attacking ride, take a pull and expect to be attacked.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

tlg said:


> LMAO yes it's full of fail, chest thumping, and hypocrisy. Rule #1 is contradictory as well. HTFU... but please don't make me work on the climbs. Waaaaa.


Yup.

Derp.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

farnsworth said:


> _wall of text_


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

If you tried to hammer me on the flats, I would try to hammer you on the climbs - at least back in the day. If the group agrees to these rules, then no problem. If you are going against the grain or are new to the group, ask what is the ride protocol and accept it. If you don't like it, form a new group. Showing up at a new ride and blasting it apart may satisfy your ego, but in the long run will cost you training partners and friends.


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## quikrick1 (Sep 28, 2011)

I think Mr. Farnsworth just likes to hear himself type.


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

tvad said:


> Read between the lines, and its clear you want to hammer on the front (you're attacking whether you put it in those terms or not), but don't want to get dropped on climbs (which you apparently do)...hence the necessity for Rule #3.
> 
> Your Rules are set up to favor sprinters over climbers...because you get dropped on climbs, but are an Alpha on the flats.
> 
> ...


Wow, this forum really does not get it.....My guess is that most of the "voices" here have never been on a 23+ mph hard ride. 

In any case, I figure I am done with the discussion.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

farnsworth said:


> Wow, this forum really does not get it.....My guess is that most of the "voices" here have never been on a 23+ mph hard ride.
> 
> In any case, I figure I am done with the discussion.


No its pretty clear you don't get it.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

farnsworth said:


> Wow, this forum really does not get it.....My guess is that most of the "voices" here have never been on a 23+ mph hard ride.
> 
> In any case, I figure I am done with the discussion.


No, _you're_ the one who doesn't get it. That's why your posts are full of irony.

There are so many "voices" here, including me, who have (regularly) been on 23+mph hard rides it'd make your head spin.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

tvad said:


> No, _you're_ the one who doesn't get it. That's why your posts are full of irony.
> 
> There are so many here, including me, who have (regularly) been on 23+mph hard rides it'd make your head spin.


Let's hope it spins clockwise and re-tightens itself back onto his neck.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

farnsworth said:


> In any case, I figure I am done with the discussion.


thanks


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

farnsworth said:


> Wow, this forum really does not get it.....My guess is that most of the "voices" here have never been on a 23+ mph hard ride.


There you go again... blaming others for your inability to get it.

Dude... when everyone keeps telling you the same thing, maybe it's time to check your ego and realize maybe it's you. You're not the only one to ride hard. And WTF does it matter if someone rides 16+ or 23+? None of your stuff makes sense. 
HTFU... but go easy on hills. Really? Do you know what HTFU means?



> In any case, I figure I am done with the discussion.


In other words you don't want a discussion because that would require you to listen to others too. You want everyone to tell you how awesome you are. But when that doesn't happen you take your ball and go home.


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

tlg said:


> In other words you don't want a discussion because that would require you to listen to others too. You want everyone to tell you how awesome you are. But when that doesn't happen you take your ball and go home.


The problem is that we have not had much discussion of *the best ways to lift the pace of hard group rides*. 

A bunch of people have made the point that they are somehow against the concept of going hard on group rides (i.e. don't pull hard or your are a jerk sort of thinking). Other have made the case that they feel "hammerfest" rides should have no rules of etiquette and while that is some progress it is not much discussion. Even at the Tour de France riders have basic styles for etiquette. Criteriums and road races also have styles of etiquette. My hope was that we could have discussion of etiquette for the context of hammer fest rides but not much discussion happened.

I would say some understanding of etiquette would make rides like my Tuesday night hammer fest go a little better. 

I could hammer the group on the climbs I choose not to. As one of the stronger riders, I think driving the pace on a short steep climb is a jerk thing. There is no risk that I or any other strong riders will get dropped but we can lose one or two riders out the back. Leaving guys out on their own for the last 20 miles of a 40 mile Tuesday night group rider just because they could not hack the last 200 meters of a steep climb it is really unfriendly. 

An alternative to the suggested rule of riding tempo on the climb might be that riders who attack on climbs should ride a bit of tempo after the climb to let things come back together. The Tuesday night hammer fest is not a race and their is no reason to drop people on purpose. A little bit of structure allows the ride to be a good workout for everyone.

So ya, if people want to discuss the topic great but if the thread is just "hey don't ride hard...." then there is no point to going on.


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## romrah (Mar 19, 2015)

farnsworth said:


> In any case, I figure I am done with the discussion.


 Finally, something I can agree with..


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Hammer the climb .. So what if it's short.. Relax a little at the top .. Soft peddle whatevs .. Let them catch up. If the climb is long stop and re group it. I like to let someone drift off in front on long climbs then try to bridge before the top.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

farnsworth said:


> *I could hammer the group on the climbs I choose not to.* As one of the stronger riders, I think driving the pace on a short steep climb is a jerk thing. There is no risk that I or any other strong riders will get dropped but we can lose one or two riders out the back.* Leaving guys out on their own for the last 20 miles of a 40 mile Tuesday night group rider just because they could not hack the last 200 meters of a steep climb it is really unfriendly.*


There's so much here...where to start.

I'm beginning to think you're simply a poor communicator. That's the best way to give benefit of the doubt.

But, let's start with, "I could hammer the group on the climbs I choose not to." That's contradictory to what you wrote in your first post:



farnsworth said:


> If someone is a wheel sucker and puts in a solid attack on a climb right after I complete a three minute pull *it can cause me to go off the back.*


So, either you get dropped on the climb or you don't. Which is it? And, either everyone HTFU or they don't. Which do you want?

I don't recall Mark Cavendish complaining because the climbers dropped him. He just HTFU and lives to ride another day when he can once again be the Alpha on a sprint finish.

Then, there's this, "Leaving guys out on their own for the last 20 miles of a 40 mile Tuesday night group rider just because they could not hack the last 200 meters of a steep climb it is really unfriendly."

Yup, not waiting for the others to complete a climb thereby leaving them out on their own for the last 20 miles is indeed _unfriendly_. Why not do what _good etiquette dictates_ and wait for the slow climbers at the top?

That's what any good ride leader would do.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Farn,

You can't have your cake and eat it too!

If you pick up the pace someone will eventually get dropped be it a climb or flat.

Is this TNW a drop ride or not?

If it is - then hammer away and don't worry about who gets dropped.

If it's not - well - define regroup points along the way before the ride starts.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

farnsworth said:


> <share your="" rules="" of="" etiquette="" here="">If someone is a wheel sucker and puts in a solid attack on a climb right after I complete a three minute pull it can cause me to go off the back. Attacking on a pull after someone just buried themselves with a massive pull is just not cool. </share>


^^^^^If you were on my ride, I would burn every match I had to do this.


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

arai_speed said:


> Farn,
> 
> You can't have your cake and eat it too!
> 
> ...


There's cake? I want some...


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I'd HTFU for cake


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

ParadigmDawg said:


> There's cake? I want some...


The cake is a lie.


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

tvad said:


> But, let's start with, "I could hammer the group on the climbs I choose not to." That's contradictory to what you wrote in your first post


If you read my first post, you will note that I mentioned that such a thing could happen in cases where I was at the end of a monster pull. Basically on rides around here only a small number of individuals can drop me on a climb unless they attack right after I put in a big effort and usually only if they did like zero work in the group.

Sure, I could go moderate for the ride until we hit the climb and trust me I could hammer guys for the short 5..10 minutes of climbing but the approach is both bad style and poor use of training time. A ride with strong pace for the full 120 minutes but do so in a way that helps the group plus it is better training for everyone.

The funny thing is that you totally don't get it. If anything I am one of the stronger climbers in our typical group rides. Sprinting is not really my thing. Getting discussion to _etiquette _is helpful and I agree with your point that on hammerfest riding tempo after the climb to let the group reform a bit is also a good approach.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

spdntrxi said:


> I'd HTFU for cake


You and me both baby!

#TuesdayNightWorldsHTFUForCakeRide


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

farnsworth said:


> Wow, this forum really does not get it.....My guess is that most of the "voices" here have never been on a 23+ mph hard ride.
> 
> In any case, I figure I am done with the discussion.


But before you go...

It sounds to me like what you really want is for anyone who shows up on Tuesday Night to agree to run this particular ride like your own personal training session. More particularly, you want to have folks treat the ride like a breakaway group or group time trial, working together to hammer at a steady fast pace. 

If you can get a group of riders to agree to your Four Rules and do that, great. Mazeltov. You win. 

If not, I'd find another group more amenable to your demands. If there are riders from your Tuesday Night Group who see things your way, start a break-away ride on Wednesday. Or, better yet, go ride solo. Do exactly the training that you want.

My personal experience with any sort of "_______ Night World Championships" is that there will always be a good percentage of riders who show up to these rides in order to throw down, not just get in training. Getting bragging rights over their fellow cyclists plays a big part in why they show up week after week. Yes, they occasionally take a weak pull up front, or lay back and then attack the group. Again, good luck attempting to change human nature on this. Put two riders together and 9 times out of 10 at least one of them will treat it as a race. Just sayin'.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

farnsworth said:


> If you read my first post, you will note that I mentioned that such a thing could happen in cases where I was *at the end of a monster pull*. Basically on rides around here only a small number of individuals can drop me on a climb unless they attack right after I put in a big effort and usually only if they did like zero work in the group.
> 
> Sure, I could go moderate for the ride until we hit the climb and trust me I could hammer guys for the short 5..10 minutes of climbing but the approach is both bad style and poor use of training time. A ride with strong pace for the full 120 minutes but do so in a way that helps the group plus it is better training for everyone.
> 
> The funny thing is that *you totally don't get it*. If anything I am one of the stronger climbers in our typical group rides. Sprinting is not really my thing. Getting discussion to _etiquette _is helpful and I agree with your point that on hammerfest riding tempo after the climb to let the group reform a bit is also a good approach.


I _totally_ get it, believe me. You're among the strongest of your group, and when you get dropped on the climbs you don't like it, so you'd like to institute a rule or two to prevent your ego from being bruised...but you'd like to spin the perception of the new rule to make it appear as if it's done in the best interest of the group. 

In your first post, you said a three minute pull:


farnsworth said:


> If someone is a wheel sucker and puts in a solid attack on a climb right *after I complete a three minute pull* it can cause me to go off the back.


Three minutes is not a monster pull. See Richie Porte for the definition of "Monster Pull".

BTW...I thought you were withdrawing from this discussion (post #13)?


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

arai_speed said:


> Is this TNW a drop ride or not?
> 
> If it is - then hammer away and don't worry about who gets dropped.


Agreed, when I ride with the group it changes the dynamics. More people get dropped and really other then a few people who get annoyed I don't think anyone on the rides mind. In general even the people that get dropped on these rides are happy when it is a hard pace ride.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

farnsworth said:


> Wow, this forum really does not get it.....My guess is that most of the "voices" here have never been on a 23+ mph hard ride.


Well, I have stayed out of this intentionally, biting my tongue, so I guess I'm not one of those "voices" you are referring to. However, before my tongue starts bleeding: I happen to have been leading the kind of ride you are referring to twice a week for years now. As has been said before, those kinds of rides are very different from any kind of regular group ride, hard or not. 

First of all, it is always made clear from the outset that these are _not_ no-drop rides, and we generally tell any newbies to expect to get dropped no matter who they (think they) are. Second, all of the regulars know that they can be dropped, and that they _will_ be dropped if they do anything stupid, such as taking too long of a pull, not paying attention to a sudden brutal change of pace, getting stuck behind that doofus who lets a gap open up, having to be the guy closing the gap repeatedly, etc., etc. 

Heck, on my rides there is nobody, including most definitely myself, who has never been dropped. If it happens, you just curse yourself for bad tactics, or being in bad shape that day, or whatever else excuse you want to come up with. Other than that, you'll just chase as hard as you can, and are happy that you're still getting a good workout out of that.

Finally, the poster who said that these rides really are race simulations is right on: That's exactly what they are. Sometimes they're just ordinary road races, sometimes they turn into team time trials after the group has split, or they just become hard training rides on one of the mellower days. Adding in the fact that, for my rides anyway, you never know exactly where the sprint points are, those rides are just always great fun, in always new and unexpected ways. There are rules, yes, but these rules can change, from one ride to the next, or even during the ride. They are what they are, and if you don't like it, then don't join 'em.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

There's rules on a hammerfest ride???? WTF. Beyond safety, if you get dropped for a well timed attack, oh well. Train harder and show up next time ready.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

There's a few rules that are fairly universal, beyond safety-related stuff. However, most of these can be summed up by saying "Don't be a douche": Don't suck wheel for the entire ride and then "show off" by dropping everybody on the last few miles (had a guy like that for a while; we simply ignored him and let him go, and he eventually got the message); wait for the rest of the group if it gets split at an intersection due to traffic, traffic lights and such; be able to figure out how to do the chosen kind of rotation of the paceline (which may not always be the same, of course); give people a chance to form an echelon when the wind comes from the side (DO NOT RIDE ON THE EFFIN' WHITE LINE WHEN THE WIND COMES FROM THE LEFT! ), and so on...


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

farnsworth said:


> If you read my first post, you will note that I mentioned that such a thing could happen in cases where* I was at the end of a monster pull*. Basically on rides around here only a small number of individuals can drop me on a climb unless they *attack right after I put in a big effort* and usually only if they did like zero work in the group.


Then either don't take the monster pulls or don't complain about getting dropped after the monster pulls. This is what people are calling you on. And this is a hypocritic stance. 

GH


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

ColaJacket said:


> Then either don't take the monster pulls or don't complain about getting dropped after the monster pulls.


I'm with ya 100% - a drop ride is a drop ride for EVERYONE! Even if you have one of these stuffed down your jersey:


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

I have the same questions as the OP except as they relate to 26+ mph rides only. I don't mess with 23+ mph rides. Also, as a side note, what are the best tires for windy conditions.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

The first rule of Tuesday Night Worlds is: You do not talk about Tuesday Night Worlds. 

A good ride leader knows this.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ColaJacket said:


> Then either don't take the monster pulls or don't complain about getting dropped after the monster pulls. This is what people are calling you on. And this is a hypocritic stance.
> 
> GH


funny how he talks about race situation and then whine about being schooled on race situations


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

den bakker said:


> funny how he talks about race situation and then whine about being schooled on race situations


You totally have not been following the threads or reading the discussion. In terms of racing.... I have seen my share of podium time and have 20+ years experience. Basically guys that need schooling are people that roll the hammer fest ride in the styles that have been advocated by a bunch of people here.

At this point the thread is just entertainment value until it peters out.

The point that I have made a bunch of times was that proper etiquette on hammer fest rides focuses on everyone getting a harder workout. A hammerfest ride is not a race. It sure sounds like very few of you guys know good style on hard rides. It is likely that even less of you know anything about racing. The dudes that sit in on their local hard rides and/or soft pull because they are saving themselves to ensure they have energy to respond to attacks are the ones that need schooling.

So ya, if you show up to your hammerfest rides my advice for anti-patterns:
1) sit in on most of the ride
2) take soft pulls on the front save energy when possible
4) go for glory on the county line sprints or climbs
5) attacks others who do strong non-attack style efforts in the pace line

People following the anti-patterns on the hammer fest rides tend to be the dudes that show up for a race and wonder why they have zero capacity. Generally riders in this style don't get much done because their workout time is wasted. On the hammerfest rides that I do they are somewhat annoying but really I don't see them as a big problem. On race date, these guys are never a concern.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

farnsworth said:


> You totally have not been following the threads or reading the discussion. In terms of racing.... I have seen my share of podium time and have 20+ years experience. Basically guys that need schooling are people that roll the hammer fest ride in the styles that have been advocated by a bunch of people here.
> 
> At this point the thread is just entertainment value until it peters out.
> 
> ...


keep on believing that.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

OP, for your next Tuesday night hammerfest ride, I suggest you show up very non-aero as possible. Wear the biggest T-shirt, baggy cargo pants and sneakers. You can hammer it out all you want and I'll bet you'll be pacing just fine to their speed.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Pirx said:


> (DO NOT RIDE ON THE EFFIN' WHITE LINE WHEN THE WIND COMES FROM THE LEFT! ), and so on...


good way to put some hurt on those not able to position themselves


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

The OP sounds a bit whiny. That is all.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

farnsworth said:


> You totally have not been following the threads or reading the discussion. In terms of racing.... I have seen my share of podium time and have 20+ years experience. Basically guys that need schooling are people that roll the hammer fest ride in the styles that have been advocated by a bunch of people here.
> 
> At this point the thread is just entertainment value until it peters out.
> 
> The point that I have made a bunch of times was that proper etiquette on hammer fest rides focuses on everyone getting a harder workout. A hammerfest ride is not a race. It sure sounds like very few of you guys know good style on hard rides. It is likely that even less of you know anything about racing. The dudes that sit in on their local hard rides and/or soft pull because they are saving themselves to ensure they have energy to respond to attacks are the ones that need schooling.


As a cat 1 who _currently _sees the podium on a fairly regular basis, I find your notion of group rides, "rules", and "etiquette" to be flat-out absurd. 

All you want seem to want to do is talk about how good you think you are on these rides (as long as they go the way you want them to go), but all I've seen from every one of your posts is flat-out delusion and an impressive inability to see thing from any other perspective. Your posts here epitomize the term "douche" and you're completely oblivious to that.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

farnsworth said:


> ... have 20+ years experience.


they say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

I'm out of popcorn


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Remember what the ladies look for: hawt and not douchie at the same time.

"It's easier said than done."


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

myhui said:


> Remember what the ladies look for: hawt and not douchie at the same time.
> 
> "It's easier said than done."


the op has no chance then


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

spdntrxi said:


> the op has no chance then


"It's easier said than done."


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

den bakker said:


> good way to put some hurt on those not able to position themselves


Heh, yeah, I know. In the end my zero-hypothesis is that if I get in trouble, it's my own fault.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

Holy schitt, another "my first thread didn't go the way I wanted it to, I think I'll try another one with the very same premise and (self-contradictory) arguments..." fustercluck. How special.

OP, please take the time to research the definition of "etiquette". That word deals with behavior according to the norms of a group, to paraphrase. Yet, you want to impose "my personal rules" into the story line. Are you too dense to understand that the concepts of "my person rules" and "etiquette" are at odds? Etiquette isn't about you and what you want. It's about the group. To impose what you want on the group is the opposite of 'etiquette'.

Your self-contradictory arguments and "you people just don't understand" -- followed by attempts to belittle your detractors -- stance paint you as a self-absorbed d!pshit who can't help but bloviate on the topic because you a) love the sound of your own voice and b) have an ego entirely too fragile to give serious consideration to anyone's viewpoints but your own. It's entirely possible that doesn't describe you at all, but it's certainly the perception you've left (virtually all of) us with, based on the content and tone of your posts. If you're hoping to be given any level of credibility here .... well, you're going about it the wrong way.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

farnsworth said:


> .... I have seen my share of podium time and have 20+ years experience. .....
> It sure sounds like very few of you guys know good style on hard rides.


At this point, both the irony and absurdity meters have exploded. 
Take all the "monster pulls" you want and enjoy your "podium time"


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

JustTooBig said:


> Your self-contradictory arguments and "you people just don't understand" -- followed by attempts to belittle your detractors -- stance paint you as a self-absorbed d!pshit who can't help but bloviate on the topic because you a) love the sound of your own voice and b) have an ego entirely too fragile to give serious consideration to anyone's viewpoints but your own.


I think this pretty much sums it all up.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

farnsworth said:


> The funny thing is that you totally don't get it. If anything I am one of the stronger climbers in our typical group rides. Sprinting is not really my thing. Getting discussion to _etiquette _is helpful and I agree with your point that on hammerfest riding tempo after the climb to let the group reform a bit is also a good approach.


There you go AGAIN. Blaming others for your inability to comprehend a discussion. Maybe that's why people get pissed at you on rides.

We all get it. You're big man on campus on your group rides. Unfortunately (for you and your ego) there are others here who are more experienced and faster than you are. 

Everyone strokes your ego on your group rides and you thought you'd come here and receive the same butt kissing. You thought everyone would be in awe of your massive speeds and revelations on etiquette. Except your "rules" were silly and contradictory. And you got called out on it by better riders. If you're as experienced as you say you are, it's baffling why YOU don't get it. 

You come to a new forum and immediately start bragging about yourself and insulting everyone else. Yet you have no clue on the abilities of those you're insulting. Brilliant.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

I said it in the last thread and I'll say it here. The purpose of a hammerfest/Somethingday Worlds/Hard ride/whatever you want to call it, is to push everyone to their limits. Hopefully everyone can stay on the group, if they can't, oh well. That means, if I can hammer on the flats, I'll make everyone suffer for that part of the ride. I will be smart enough to hold something back before the climb, because I wholeheartedly expect the good climbers to make me suffer on the climbs (and possibly get dropped). The idea here is to make it a HARD RIDE, thus the name... As you improve, the ride gets easier. As you figure out when and where certain guys will attack, the ride gets easier (if you adjust your efforts appropriately). 

The only rule for Worlds (besides don't talk about Worlds) is HTFU!!! No other etiquette BS. Just HTFU! If you don't like it, don't do the ride.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

jspharmd said:


> As you improve, the ride gets easier.


Ahh, if only... Unfortunately, with the gang coming to these kinds of rides it turns out that as you improve, they improve, too. As Greg Lemond said: "It never gets easier, you just go faster"...


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> A hammerfest ride is a race simulation ride. Attacking is pretty much all you do.


That's largely my experience. We make it up as we go, sometime riding in disciplined pace lines, sometimes chatting two-abreast, riding off the front, racing to the top of a hill or town line, etc... regrouping as convenient. For the most part we're going pretty hard until somebody decides to go. If it's along a usual route there are often habitual test sections. You're never really required to chase or join in any of the impromptu contests.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Pirx said:


> Ahh, if only... Unfortunately, with the gang coming to these kinds of rides it turns out that as you improve, they improve, too. As Greg Lemond said: "It never gets easier, you just go faster"...


Yeah, poor choice of words. I do find though, that I can figure out where to rest to make the ride easier. Conversely, if I'm looking for a hard ride, I don't rest in those spots. I make hard efforts there, as I pull off, I try to recover as I'm dangling on the back.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

motoricker said:


> At this point, both the irony and absurdity meters have exploded.
> Take all the "monster pulls" you want and enjoy your "podium time"





pedalbiker said:


> I think this pretty much sums it all up.





tlg said:


> There you go AGAIN. Blaming others for your inability to comprehend a discussion. Maybe that's why people get pissed at you on rides.
> 
> We all get it. *You're big man on campus on your group rides. Unfortunately (for you and your ego) there are others here who are more experienced and faster than you are. *
> 
> ...


There's always someone faster than you. He just did not show up that week. If there is a arrogant person in the group, that stronger rider will target him. He'll get served an extra big helping of humble pie.

I guess I don't understand this "kill or be killed mentality" the OP is going with. On a group ride, I push my limits on the pull. If someone gets dropped, I don't have any problem dropping back a bit and bring them back up. I guess if everyone understands the before ride premise of "kill or be killed," it can be this way. I personally have this "kill" attitude training when I'm alone and riding against the clock. Either you made your best time or you didn't. Maybe I should go back to glass blowing as a hobby.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Does your Tuesday Night Ride have any sprint points or KOMs? If so, NO MERCY.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

tlg said:


> Nothing pisses me off more when the big guns on a hammerfest want to soft pedal up the hills. WTF.. HTFU and pedal.


Our Saturday Morning Ride is just over 35 miles long. 15 miles in, up a nice 10 minute climb. A short loop around the top, then back down the descent. 15 miles back to the final sprint. 

Many slower folks draft to the base of the hill, slow pedal the climb, cut the course, and jump back in on the descent to draft all the way to the sprint point. No problem. Hang on as much as you can. 

My problem is when a course cutter contests sprint. 

And of course this is really only a problem if they beat me. 



Last year one of these shitbird course cutters beat me a few weeks in a row. I was livid. Why should I go in the red for 10 minutes up the climb when he gets to go easy up the climb and then relax for 5 minutes at the top, waiting for me and others to come around? Why does this starling even do the ride at all? Just sit on a trainer, warm up, then do the sprint. Coward. 

I was not shy about giving him my opinion and telling him what I thought of his antics. I think I did him a favor. The next week he survived the entire climb with the front group and came in third on the sprint.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Having done TNW rides for 15+ straight years this thread is hilarious. There is only one rule on true TNW race simulations- *DON'T DO UNSAFE NONSENSE*. That's it.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

Has anyone taken a look at this guys blog?
Blog | Farnsworth Bicycles | Phone 919-809-9328

This is what he is posting. I am not sure what to think of this guy?



> Many of the guys were on full carbon replica bikes that reflect the machines used at the Tour de France. I was racing my own unique steel bike. My bike is a little bit heavier than some of the other bikes but the frame really only weighs about 2.5 pounds more. When you look at the weight of the racer plus the bike, 2.5 pounds works out to be around 2% of the total weight. Basically, the difference between steel and carbon in terms of race performance is meaningless.
> Where I think my bike had an advantage was in ride quality, fit, and handling. The Berger race course has a few spots with nasty pavement. I noticed some of the other guys having trouble with their wheels skittering around. My tires run 28mm and my frame has a long wheelbase vs. “typical” bikes. The long wheelbase combined with my relaxed body position gave me far more than a 2% advantage over bikes that I have owned in the past. The steel bike felt stable around the turns especially in places where the pavement was cracked.
> The race followed the same basic script that plays out in criteriums all over the world. We road around for a while as a big group for 40 minutes. On the final lap the pace picked up a bit and we came around for a sprint finish. It was fun; criteriums don’t have the total soul crushing race experience that I seek when I race six hour mountain bike events. Then again, it’s nice to occasionally have energy after the race to enjoy the afternoon and not simply curl up in a ball. I’ll save that for next weekend when I do the 6 hour race in the Southern Endurance Series at Crabtree. See you there!


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

Okay - Farnsworth - honestly, I'm going to be nice and helpful here. As someone who has been beaten up on here for saying something that people didn't like, or having something "misread," or even just sticking my foot in my mouth.

First - since you're asking about the etiquette itself, I would honestly say, the only people who can give you that answer are those that are on your ride. Having ridden different TNWs on both coasts, I can tell you that each one has its own style and the rules are generally understood by that group. Since you're a relative new comer (or new returner) maybe the group that is new to you has an established set of standards. There are two ways to find out. Ask is the first and easiest. The second is to just go apesh*t on the ride a few weeks in a row and see how that goes. If it goes well, the pace will pick up and who knows, maybe there are some folks that had been wishing for that. If it doesn't go well, make sure you have a few spare tires for your car and something to wash egg off the siding of your house.

Second - There really are tons of good people here - many of them certainly that have plenty of experience in real races (you know, above 23+). While it may sound like a johnson measuring contest around here, it's more that people are matter of fact and shut down egos (real or perceived) really quickly. Whether you mean it to or not, your posts read like "Yeah, so, I'm a badass and no one can keep up with me. How do I get them to get to my level of like awesomeness and stuff?" Look - you're a Cat 3 with some wins to your name. That speaks for itself. But everyone here has ridden with some Cat 3s, 2s, or 1s that frankly annoy the p*ss out of us. Don't be that dude.

Third - There are rules in a TNW scenario. Win and don't hurt other people (by doing something stupid/unsafe). Otherwise, if you want to push it, that's kind of the purpose. If it's simply a group ride (which, honestly, it sounds like it is), then just ride, do what the rest of the group is doing, and have fun! Otherwise, the starting line for the ride will change soon and you won't know where.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

Corenfa said:


> Okay - Farnsworth - honestly, I'm going to be nice and helpful here. As someone who has been beaten up on here for saying something that people didn't like, or having something "misread," or even just sticking my foot in my mouth.
> 
> First - since you're asking about the etiquette itself, I would honestly say, the only people who can give you that answer are those that are on your ride. Having ridden different TNWs on both coasts, I can tell you that each one has its own style and the rules are generally understood by that group. Since you're a relative new comer (or new returner) maybe the group that is new to you has an established set of standards. There are two ways to find out. Ask is the first and easiest. The second is to just go apesh*t on the ride a few weeks in a row and see how that goes. If it goes well, the pace will pick up and who knows, maybe there are some folks that had been wishing for that. If it doesn't go well, make sure you have a few spare tires for your car and something to wash egg off the siding of your house.
> 
> ...


Where I live, cat 2's have zero to prove on any club ride whether a hammer fest, or fun ride. They prove themselves against Pro-1-2's on TNW's and on race day. It's the 3 & 4 wannabes who always have to preen on a club ride. How hard is it really to drop and/or out sprint citizen/club riders, even if some of them used to race? Better to challenge your peers or your betters than peons unless your ego is really f'd up. 

Those who are legitimately racing for USA Cycling points and category upgrades train with teams and duke it out in real races with peers and/or stronger riders on other teams in sanctioned races. Or if not on a team, hammer at TNW with other real racers and see how long you can hold on. 

Everybody knows a Farnsworth aka Fred. Some of us maybe even were Fred until someone beat us with a clue bat. If you are strong and really want to race, find a team and prove your mettle. Don't show off on club rides. Do TNW or hammerfest rides which are designated as such. If you shine, get on a team. If you are pack fodder, go back to the club and do regular rides with them, do your share of work on the front without messing it up for everyone else. Make friends and not enemies among your peers, whether they be high or low on the status board


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

farnsworth said:


> The problem is that we have not had much discussion of *the best ways to lift the pace of hard group rides*.
> 
> A bunch of people have made the point that they are somehow against the concept of going hard on group rides (i.e. don't pull hard or your are a jerk sort of thinking). Other have made the case that they feel "hammerfest" rides should have no rules of etiquette and while that is some progress it is not much discussion. Even at the Tour de France riders have basic styles for etiquette. Criteriums and road races also have styles of etiquette. My hope was that we could have discussion of etiquette for the context of hammer fest rides but not much discussion happened.
> 
> ...


The best way to lift the pace on a group ride is to pull on the front. If you are willing to risk someone coming past you and kicking your a** on the next climb because you wanted to swing your genitalia all over the front of the group on the flat, more power to you. 

The rides you describe are race sim: that means the climbers are going to punish your flatland loving a** on climbs all day every day because you're treating every flat stretch of road like a Kilo on the track.

Maybe you should simply abide by your first rule and HTFU. Stop complaining. If you want to race, then be prepared to race. If you want to work and paceline, then work and paceline. If you're too dim to know what "a good workout" is without demolishing yourself, buy a power meter and quantify it. 

But for god's sake, be done with asking and hoping we'll stroke your ego. We won't.


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

Corenfa said:


> Okay - Farnsworth - honestly, I'm going to be nice and helpful here. As someone who has been beaten up on here for saying something that people didn't like, or having something "misread," or even just sticking my foot in my mouth.


Forum's are silly, the thread went south pretty quickly; not sure I will be on this forum much in the future. I don't really see it as much of a community.



Corenfa said:


> First - since you're asking about the etiquette itself, I would honestly say, the only people who can give you that answer are those that are on your ride.


The people that ride with me think this sort of forum is silly. I am starting to agree.



Corenfa said:


> Since you're a relative new comer (or new returner) maybe the group that is new to you has an established set of standards.


My hope was a discussion of what we would all consider good style for these rides but that hope is long dead. In the first thread no one seemed like they even read the part where I described it as a TNW. People on the thread jumped all over me thinking that I did not know how to rotate and such. I explained that I was an experienced rider and people jumped on me saying that I was not. At one point someone challenged me on the thread by basically describing me as a newbie. In the challenge he somehow suggested that I share strava because he did not believe my claim of 23 mph. 

The thread went downhill from that point. I shared my strava then was accused of lying because someone dug up my post from a couple weeks ago where I had shared that I just built up a bike after many years of not having one. 



Corenfa said:


> There are two ways to find out. Ask is the first and easiest. The second is to just go apesh*t on the ride a few weeks in a row and see how that goes.


Three weeks of road riding with them and the group that I ride with is happy. 



Corenfa said:


> Second - There really are tons of good people here - many of them certainly that have plenty of experience in real races (you know, above 23+). While it may sound like a johnson measuring contest around here, it's more that people are matter of fact and shut down egos (real or perceived) really quickly.


I am sure there are plenty.



Corenfa said:


> Whether you mean it to or not, your posts read like "Yeah, so, I'm a badass and no one can keep up with me. How do I get them to get to my level of like awesomeness and stuff?" Look - you're a Cat 3 with some wins to your name. That speaks for itself. But everyone here has ridden with some Cat 3s, 2s, or 1s that frankly annoy the p*ss out of us. Don't be that dude.


I posted who I was after I was accused of being a newbie that did not know the first thing about doing rotation. Also, the posts here about TNW style group rides are silly. At just about any ride people who show up just to wheel suck and make jumpy attacks are doing poor training for themselves and others on the group. The TNW style rides that I have done over the last three weeks are not races and people on the rides use them for training with an understanding that the goal of the ride is to get a workout. Some simulation exists but strong riders don't go abusing the weaker riders. The point that I was making in this thread was that if done correctly good etiquette helps everyone in the group.



Corenfa said:


> Third - There are rules in a TNW scenario. Win and don't hurt other people (by doing something stupid/unsafe). Otherwise, if you want to push it, that's kind of the purpose. If it's simply a group ride (which, honestly, it sounds like it is), then just ride, do what the rest of the group is doing, and have fun! Otherwise, the starting line for the ride will change soon and you won't know where.


It sounds like you have somewhat an idea of how hard rides work. The rides I have been doing have been TNW style rides where people don't mind if they get dropped. My focus on the rides has been to lift the pace. Some people get dropped from when strong riders lift the pace but if done correctly we are able to make the ride work for everyone as a good training tool.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

Elvis won't leave the building...


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

farnsworth said:


> Forum's are silly, the thread went south pretty quickly; *not sure I will be on this forum much in the future*. I don't really see it as much of a community.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

Seriously, Fred, find a team and train with them. Best way, go to a real race, and podium. You will be recruited


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

farnsworth said:


> Forum's are silly, the thread went south pretty quickly; not sure I will be on this forum much in the future. I don't really see it as much of a community.
> 
> 
> The people that ride with me think this sort of forum is silly. I am starting to agree.


Did you peruse the forums prior to posting? If so, you really have no reason to call this silly knowing what would be coming. If not, why didn't you perform the due diligence to investigate this forum? It's not like we're the only road cycling forum available either.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I guess the thing that has had me scratching my head is the idea that a bunch of people on a forum are going to have anything useful to say about the etiquette in your group. Groups vary, a lot, even among the hammerfests. My advice is to ask them. I'm a cat 3 masters with a few wins under my belt too, for what that's worth.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

[edited] - reading through the tread, my point has already been made several times.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

farnsworth said:


> Forum's are silly, the thread went south pretty quickly; not sure I will be on this forum much in the future. I don't really see it as much of a community.


You are pretty thin skinned if you give up barely after reaching double digit posts. And if it does not conform to your definition of conformity for social interchange, with as many users as there is here, look in the mirror maybe.

Not every thread is a home run, and this case I feel the OP, whom-ever that may be, needs to take responsibility for the reactions and impressions spawned from method of delivery.

Again, just one arse's opinion...


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

FWIW, Farnsworth - That was me that called you out. I believed you to be a troll. When you posted your strava, I gave you due credit. 

But, as has been pointed out a few times in this thread, a lot of what you say is at odds with itself. 

I keep coming back to the idea of these being TNW rides. Tuesday Night World Championships have the word "Championship" in them. That means it's a race. It may not be (and likely isn't) USAC sanctioned, but it's a race. If it's not, then it's not a TNW, it's a group ride. If the goal is to pull a paceline at a consistent 23 MPH, then it's not a race and it's not a TNW. If that is the case, then you are trying to push the group to an area it hasn't decided it wants to go. Some will thank you for this, others will loathe you for it.

As suggested many times, find a team. If you're a Cat 3 with some podiums, that won't be hard at all. The price of admission is usually little more than the cost of the kit (or 2) and probably some volunteer work at the race(s) that they sponsor. Then go out and train with the team. They'll be thankful that someone is on the ride pushing them harder and harder. 

BTW - THIS is a TNW: (notice, I didn't go for the sprint. I got spit out in the last 100m).


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Holy crap, HTFU applies to more than just cycling. And it's the first rule of the OP.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

My simplistic rule(s).
If it's a race sim - race
If' it's a group ride - ride as a group
If you are pushing a group too hard you will have guys riding at their limit trying to hang on, when this happens the results are usually accidents.
Your hardest rides are done by yourself, shown time and again by power meter data.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

farnsworth said:


> the thread went south pretty quickly


The first post went pear shaped after a few paragraphs.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Local Hero said:


> The first post went pear shaped after a few paragraphs.


not to mention 2 threads right.... the second one specifically mentions TNW stuff, but the first one kind of left it open as too these tactics being tried on other group rides as well. Atleast that is what I remember...but I'm old, so get off my lawn.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

There are many unaffiliated local group rides like this.

No rules, no etiquette. Pace of the ride is determined by the fastest rider on any given day.

You get dropped, come back next week and try again because no one is stopping. Crash? Sometimes they stop but it is still not a given. Traffic laws/rules of the road, calling out obstacles. Forget it.

You know what you are signing up for when you show up. That's just the way it is, so don't be surprised or offended if you don't like it. 

That's why they are unaffiliated, no club or team wants responsibility or liability when it hits the fan, and it always does sooner or later. But people still show up week after week.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

To me anything that was agreed upon before the start is ok, anything else is being a jerk. What I don't understand is you want to push the pace on flats but not on hills. So what I am asking is why is it ok for you to push on flats but ok for someone else to do it just because it is a hill?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

And if that's the case and a dude wants to let out his aggression on the others, so be it. That's what the Tuesday Night Worlds are about: baring your teeth while kicking in their teeth. 

Go hard or go home. 

When I am feeling it, I like to get out there and go hard. If I don't want to play nice and am feeling feisty I'll sit on too long then pull through too hard. I will do this with someone I don't like. A gap opens up? I make them chase. When they flick their elbow and want me to pull through, I will show 'em the suffer face while pretending to gasp for air. "I got nothin!" After their effort, I bridge across solo. No mercy. 

It's not always like this. I save that treatment for those I don't like. Or if I really feel like blowing off some steam. Most of the time I play nice. Hard riding and racing doesn't have to involve chicanery. But no matter how I am riding, I definitely wont cry like a baby if I get dropped the climb.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Every training ride has it's own rules.
The two extremes are "nice" hard rides, and "cutthroat" rides.
The "nice" ones have regrouping areas, where the stronger rider will wait a few minutes at points to let weaker riders catch up. The only attacks will be before these regrouping points.
The "cutthroat" rides have constant attacks, and no waiting for dropped riders. In fact, expect attacks from stop signs, crossing busy roads. (If you are near the back, and can't make it across, without getting run over, you're gone) They will end with field sprints, across the entire road, where it's your job not to get hit by cars.
These are the two extremes. If you want to make your own rules, you might find yourself riding alone. On some of the rides, I've done, if people don't like you, expect to be attacked after your pulls, and expect to not be allowed back in the pace line, except at the tail end.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I like cutthroat rides.

Ride like a man.

Do it.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Originally Posted by farnsworth View Post 

... have 20+ years experience.


I have 30+ years experience racing, and man, are you wacked.

Sorry for my bluntness, but that's just the way I am.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I can't hack them anymore, but rolling down the road in a pack of 35 riders, at 30 mph was fun. As I've gotten older, I've become "gravity challenged". Give me sprinter's hills. Long drags shoot me out the back.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I can't hack them anymore, but rolling down the road in a pack of 35 riders, at 30 mph was fun.


Is that sustainable for more than 20 seconds per pull at the front? Crashing at 30mph with 35 riders piling on will require ambulances called in from the next town.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

farnsworth said:


> My hope was a discussion of what we would all consider good style for these rides but that hope is long dead. In the first thread no one seemed like they even read the part where I described it as a TNW. People on the thread jumped all over me thinking that I did not know how to rotate and such. I explained that I was an experienced rider and people jumped on me saying that I was not. At one point someone challenged me on the thread by basically describing me as a newbie. In the challenge he somehow suggested that I share strava because he did not believe my claim of 23 mph.
> 
> The thread went downhill from that point. I shared my strava then was accused of lying because someone dug up my post from a couple weeks ago where I had shared that I just built up a bike after many years of not having one.
> 
> It sounds like you have somewhat an idea of how hard rides work. The rides I have been doing have been TNW style rides where people don't mind if they get dropped. My focus on the rides has been to lift the pace. Some people get dropped from when strong riders lift the pace but if done correctly we are able to make the ride work for everyone as a good training tool.


Did you read my posts? I clearly answered your question. I wonder if you read it and didn't like what I wrote. The purpose of a TNW is to have a hard ride with attacking. There is no "let's ride easy here so we can all stay together." When I to TNW (actually TMW for us), people are purposefully trying to drop others. Guys come out to the ride solely to push the pace when there is a lull. They do this just to make the ride harder. Guess what? That's why we are there. If I want to do a more conservative training ride, I'll get my teammates together and we can set goals for a ride. TNW is not that ride.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

Slightly off topic: But occasionally I come across discussions on the internet where a poster seems so consistently "off" that I actually start wondering if there is really a human being behind the posts or if a computer scientist is testing some sort of artificial intelligence algorithm. Sort of a "Turing test" to see if the computer can convince enough people that it is a human and continue the conversation. 
They seem to be able to form sentences that have something to do with the topic, but they just consistently miss "the point" although they keep talking and using words that seem related to it.


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

motoricker said:


> Slightly off topic: But occasionally I come across discussions on the internet where a poster seems so consistently "off" that I actually start wondering if there is really a human being behind the posts or if a computer scientist is testing some sort of artificial intelligence algorithm. Sort of a "Turing test" to see if the computer can convince enough people that it is a human and continue the conversation.
> They seem to be able to form sentences that have something to do with the topic, but they just consistently miss "the point" although they keep talking and using words that seem related to it.


You pretty much just described 99% of user interaction on the internet.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

farnsworth said:


> At this point the thread is just entertainment value until it peters out.


Pretty sure your peter was out in post #1


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Ewang is strong in this one


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

Love Commander said:


> You pretty much just described 99% of user interaction on the internet.


Although cliche, that seems like something a real human would say.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

When you have 35 riders in an "unofficial" road race, things get quick, very fast. There was always a group of 1-2's at the front driving the pace. I tended to hide in the pack, whenever the pace went over 25 mph. 
Some of my fond memories of those days were guys crashing at 40 mph, when dogs think that you are a car.. I can only remember, over the years that I did that ride, that one guy was hit by a car.
The ride got so crazy that one time, cops pulled the whole ride over. Three guys took off, and when the cop went after them, everybody else, split up in different directions.
The three guys got hit with a pretty hefty fine....Better them than me.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Love Commander said:


> You pretty much just described 99% of user interaction on the internet.





Bob Ross said:


> Pretty sure your peter was out in post #1





spdntrxi said:


> Ewang is strong in this one





motoricker said:


> Although cliche, that seems like something a real human would say.


Everyone posting in this thread needs to get off the computer and go ride.

We have one guy with his peter out
We have one that could be an AI constuct (Cortana anyone?)
We have one that insulted nearly all of the internet
Then, we have me that contributed absolutely nothing useful or constructive.


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

I think saying in rule #2 going "maximal pace" is a mistake. One rider's speed for a 3 minute pull might be 25 mph, another rider's might be 30 mph, and that will lead to some yelling. Set a speed limit and stick to it if you want the group to stay together. Weaker riders pull less or don't pull, stronger riders don't go beserk but pull longer.

If you are the ride leader, let the group know what the rules and format of the ride are, and if people are not willing to adhere to them, let them know the ride is not for them.

As mentioned earlier, if the ride is a defacto weekly world championships, then anything goes just like in a race. So expect the attacks, people looking around, people waiting for the right break, and other hijinks. If you don't like it, don't do that ride.


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

milkbaby said:


> I think saying in rule #2 going "maximal pace" is a mistake. One rider's speed for a 3 minute pull might be 25 mph, another rider's might be 30 mph, and that will lead to some yelling. Set a speed limit and stick to it if you want the group to stay together. Weaker riders pull less or don't pull, stronger riders don't go beserk but pull longer.
> 
> If you are the ride leader, let the group know what the rules and format of the ride are, and if people are not willing to adhere to them, let them know the ride is not for them.
> 
> As mentioned earlier, if the ride is a defacto weekly world championships, t*hen anything goes just like in a race. So expect the attacks, people looking around, people waiting for the right break, and other hijinks*. If you don't like it, don't do that ride.


Right, he was trying to setup the rules so that he could take monster pulls on the flats, and then not have someone attack him on hill right after his monster pull.

If he doesn't want the attack (or wants to be able to counter it), then don't take the monster pull. Also, he should be familiar enough with the course, that he can stop his monster pull in time to get a little time where he isn't pulling at max effort.

GH


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> Everyone posting in this thread needs to get off the computer and go ride.


I will tomorrow morning when it's not 100 degrees..


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Pirx said:


> Well, I have stayed out of this intentionally, biting my tongue, so I guess I'm not one of those "voices" you are referring to. However, before my tongue starts bleeding: I happen to have been leading the kind of ride you are referring to twice a week for years now. As has been said before, those kinds of rides are very different from any kind of regular group ride, hard or not.
> 
> First of all, it is always made clear from the outset that these are _not_ no-drop rides, and we generally tell any newbies to expect to get dropped no matter who they (think they) are. Second, all of the regulars know that they can be dropped, and that they _will_ be dropped if they do anything stupid, such as taking too long of a pull, not paying attention to a sudden brutal change of pace, getting stuck behind that doofus who lets a gap open up, having to be the guy closing the gap repeatedly, etc., etc.
> 
> ...


Great response, Pirx! Say it like it is! :thumbsup:


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Why is this thread still active and not closed???

I thought the consensus was,

*Train hard and if you get dropped from an attack, come back when you can hang with the big boys.*


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Farnsworth, i think you are wishing for more disciplined, rotating pace lines, every rider doing his short pull then pulling off to let the next rider do a pull. Of all the group rides I've ever ridden, and that's plenty, I have been in one of these ONCE. That was in Shreveport, LA, and it was a very flat course. We had about 20 riders. We each did our pull, not too long like on most of these rides where strong riders do these long pulls. As a group, we could sustain a solid 25 mph on this flat, no faster, no slower. Everybody could handle a short pull, so nobody got dropped. We kept up that speed none of us could have probably done solo, sharing the work very democratically. After what must have been a half hour, we were pretty pleased with ourselves.

So maybe you should organize such a ride with a small group, rather than try to change the hammerfest rides to suit that purpose. :yesnod: I'd be there, for sure. :thumbsup:


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## DMH2979 (May 24, 2011)

Mr. Grumpy, might you be talking about the Bus Stop ride in Boulder?


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Farnsworth, i think you are wishing for more disciplined, rotating pace lines, every rider doing his short pull then pulling off to let the next rider do a pull. Of all the group rides I've ever ridden, and that's plenty, I have been in one of these ONCE. That was in Shreveport, LA, and it was a very flat course. We had about 20 riders. We each did our pull, not too long like on most of these rides where strong riders do these long pulls. As a group, we could sustain a solid 25 mph on this flat, no faster, no slower. Everybody could handle a short pull, so nobody got dropped. We kept up that speed none of us could have probably done solo, sharing the work very democratically. After what must have been a half hour, we were pretty pleased with ourselves.
> 
> So maybe you should organize such a ride with a small group, rather than try to change the hammerfest rides to suit that purpose. :yesnod: I'd be there, for sure. :thumbsup:


Go back and reread his orginal post where he talks about the things he does to "pick up the pace" that involve ****ing the pace line up.

BTW I ran a ride for years that had exactly that a steady rotating pace line for the majority of the ride (at the end we had a race sim for the final miles). There were always a few guys that showed up and tried to alter the whole ride for their needs alone.


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## SlippedChain (Nov 4, 2013)

tvad said:


> No, _you're_ the one who doesn't get it. That's why your posts are full of irony.


I agree with this ^^^ but have to reluctantly confess, I've been enjoying all the back and fourth on both these threads.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

32and3cross said:


> Go back and reread his orginal post where he talks about the things he does to "pick up the pace" that involve ****ing the pace line up.
> 
> BTW I ran a ride for years that had exactly that a steady rotating pace line for the majority of the ride (at the end we had a race sim for the final miles). There were always a few guys that showed up and tried to alter the whole ride for their needs alone.


Your ride is very sensible. Try to stay together so riders get used to working a pace line, then at the end let 'em rip and show what they got. :thumbsup:


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

The best pace line riding I've done were in the Rideau Lakes Tours organized by the Ottawa Cycling Club which runs every June. This June was the 44th annual. First day is from Ottawa to Kingston about 125 miles (200km); the next day the riders go back to Ottawa. Although discouraged by the organizers, huge pelotons of 40+ riders generally formed on the roads the 2nd day. A curtain club may have an organized rotating line of 5-8 strong riders in back of which unaffiliated riders would hook on. Joining the rotation not allowed by the club as those in the rotation all knew each other and strangers, no matter how strong, would never take pulls, at least in the early miles. Sitting in however, permitted. When I was younger and fitter, I used to do the tours every year for about 10 total. I would hook on to these pelotons going back to Ottawa. If you've never experienced Peloton riding, you really don't know what "being protected" is all about. With 40 riders cruising along over 25mph, if you were in mid pack with riders ahead, beside and behind you, you could cruise along without putting in anywhere near the real effort required to maintain that pace. A cool feeling to be sucked along and staying strong. Generally, riders would keep getting shelled from these pelotons as the miles piled up, until even riders in the rotation finally got spent and dropped out. It was then that the protected riders would be welcomed into what was left of the paceline. Being strong and fresh, we could keep the pace at the 25+ mph average the club was aiming for, for the entire route. Meaning, that sub 5 hour centuries were the norm. With a tailwind 4.5 was achievable 4.75 commonplace. Damn, those were awesome rides

http://www.ottawabicycleclub.ca


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

dwt said:


> The best pace line riding I've done were in the Rideau Lakes Tours organized by the Ottawa Cycling Club which runs every June. This June was the 44th annual. First day is from Ottawa to Kingston about 125 miles (200km); the next day the riders go back to Ottawa. Although discouraged by the organizers, huge pelotons of 40+ riders generally formed on the roads the 2nd day. A curtain club may have an organized rotating line of 5-8 strong riders in back of which unaffiliated riders would hook on. Joining the rotation not allowed by the club as those in the rotation all knew each other and strangers, no matter how strong, would never take pulls, at least in the early miles. Sitting in however, permitted. When I was younger and fitter, I used to do the tours every year for about 10 total. I would hook on to these pelotons going back to Ottawa. If you've never experienced Peloton riding, you really don't know what "being protected" is all about. With 40 riders cruising along over 25mph, if you were in mid pack with riders ahead, beside and behind you, you could cruise along without putting in anywhere near the real effort required to maintain that pace. A cool feeling to be sucked along and staying strong. Generally, riders would keep getting shelled from these pelotons as the miles piled up, until even riders in the rotation finally got spent and dropped out. It was then that the protected riders would be welcomed into what was left of the paceline. Being strong and fresh, we could keep the pace at the 25+ mph average the club was aiming for, for the entire route. Meaning, that sub 5 hour centuries were the norm. With a tailwind 4.5 was achievable 4.75 commonplace. Damn, those were awesome rides
> 
> Ottawa Bicycle Club


Dig it. A buddy rode with groups like that in the Hottern Hell Hundred in Wichita Falls, TX. They finished in 4 hours, 50 minutes. :thumbsup: I got a flat about 20 miles in, watching all the groups go off in the distance, and finished alone in 7 hours. :cryin:


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> Dig it. A buddy rode with groups like that in the Hottern Hell Hundred in Wichita Falls, TX. They finished in 4 hours, 50 minutes. :thumbsup: I got a flat about 20 miles in, watching all the groups go off in the distance, and finished alone in 7 hours. :cryin:


HTFU up and ride with a flat next time.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

ziscwg said:


> HTFU up and ride with a flat next time.


They do it in motor racing.

You can do it in bicycle racing.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

myhui said:


> They do it in motor racing.
> 
> You can do it in bicycle racing.


Not very well. No way you're gonna hit the finish line even close to first! Better to stop, get your mech in the follow vehicle to put a new wheel on, :30 seconds, and chase down the group, or in this case catch the next group coming up. Of course HHH didn't allow follow vehicles.

I got dropped by all these fit groups making awesome times. I got stuck with the newbies, baby trailers, and clowns doing it just for the hell of it. :frown2: It was truly humiliating. :cryin:


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> Not very well. No way you're gonna hit the finish line even close to first! Better to stop, get your mech in the follow vehicle to put a new wheel on, :30 seconds, and chase down the group, or in this case catch the next group coming up. Of course HHH didn't allow follow vehicles.
> 
> I got dropped by all these fit groups making awesome times. I got stuck with the newbies, baby trailers, and clowns doing it just for the hell of it. :frown2: It was truly humiliating. :cryin:


You missed an opportunity to educate the n00bs and bring them up to speed. You know the saying, 

*"If life gives you lemons, make apple pie"
*


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

myhui said:


> They do it in motor racing.
> 
> You can do it in bicycle racing.


Yeah try that with your tubular tape, lets see how long your tire stays on.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

32and3cross said:


> Yeah try that with your tubular tape, lets see how long your tire stays on.


It'll stay on.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

Yup. It will stay on.*



*Disclaimer - please note our tubular tape is not designed to stay on should you flat, ride in rainy conditions, or exceed speeds of 4 miles per hour (6.5km/h). Use Tufo Tape for all of your riding needs, but please avoid sharp corners in excess of 15 degrees or riding on days where sun might peak from behind clouds. Descend carefully avoiding the use of brakes as it may overheat our tape, but also, do not exceed our maximum recommended speed of 4mph. Enjoy Tufo tape responsibly and do not taunt happy fun tufo tape.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

myhui said:


> It'll stay on.


Yep sure it whill I mean after all you have extensive experince riding it flat right, and BTW I don't mean riding it flat a slow speed, I mean riding it flat at race pace having to turn.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

32and3cross said:


> Yep sure it whill I mean after all you have extensive experince riding it flat right, and BTW I don't mean riding it flat a slow speed, I mean riding it flat at race pace having to turn.


^^^^^This.

It will probably stay on. You, on the other hand...


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

ziscwg said:


> You missed an opportunity to educate the n00bs and bring them up to speed. You know the saying,
> 
> *"If life gives you lemons, make apple pie"
> *


Consoling words, thanks. That was a bad day. My buddy who finished in 4 and a half hours now that I think about it, was pissed off he had to wait so long for me to make in back. "I was just about fixing to leave! Glad you finally showed up!" He was my ride back to Longview! :cryin:


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> Consoling words, thanks. That was a bad day. My buddy who finished in 4 and a half hours now that I think about it, was pissed off he had to wait so long for me to make in back. "I was just about fixing to leave! Glad you finally showed up!" He was my ride back to Longview! :cryin:


Well, if he was your ride, it's nice he waited.

He missed an opportunity to relax and have a beer or two. Your penalty would have been having to drive back as he had been drinking.

Anyway, I guess I have a totally different way of looking at long rides. I ride hard, but see it as a social thing too. If I want a PR on a century, it only means something to me to do it solo. I have been on shorter rides where to goal is time and I'm with an organized group. I guess I don't find those as fun.

In any event, you could look into using sealant in your tubes. It can prevent small punctures. I know there's a site that did testing of it somewhere. Stans, of course, failed, but one from Bonit and OrangeSeal showed the ability to seal small holes


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

No, the Harper Ride in Suburban Chicago.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

ziscwg said:


> Well, if he was your ride, it's nice he waited.
> 
> He missed an opportunity to relax and have a beer or two. Your penalty would have been having to drive back as he had been drinking.
> 
> ...


My feeling too was seeing it as a social ride. But my friend couldn't resist. If I'd hooked up with a fast group, I sure would have hung on, too, though. So I understood my friend's ambitions. 

The goat heads, tiny spiky things that litter the course, give lots of riders flats, so I guess OrangeSeal would have been great prep for this event. :yesnod:


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

Corenfa said:


> Yup. It will stay on.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Disclaimer - please note our tubular tape is not designed to stay on should you flat, ride in rainy conditions, or exceed speeds of 4 miles per hour (6.5km/h). Use Tufo Tape for all of your riding needs, but please avoid sharp corners in excess of 15 degrees or riding on days where sun might peak from behind clouds. Descend carefully avoiding the use of brakes as it may overheat our tape, but also, do not exceed our maximum recommended speed of 4mph. Enjoy Tufo tape responsibly and do not taunt happy fun tufo tape.


Damn, that makes the hassle of road tubeless sound like a piece of cake.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

dwt said:


> Damn, that makes the hassle of road tubeless sound like a piece of cake.


Well, road tubeless is a hassle. But Tufo tape - yeah, that's just a pain. Literally.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

Corenfa said:


> Well, road tubeless is a hassle. .


I know that intimately. But I'm a stubborn idiot.


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

spdntrxi said:


> I'd HTFU for cake


We have to get cake....


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

I am so confused. Is there cake or not?


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Corenfa said:


> Well, road tubeless is a hassle. But Tufo tape - yeah, that's just a pain. Literally.


It sounds like it's not useful for cycling. Maybe they can use it for to make Tofu shaped things to eat after the ride.

"Tofu put together with Tufo. Please eat responsibly"


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ParadigmDawg said:


> I am so confused. Is there cake or not?



There WAS apple pie, but I ate it all. 

So, no go if you are too slow.................


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

On most of my rides these days, the only pie is Humble.


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## Cannasia (Sep 7, 2017)

This is a weird thread...

My experience is the ride will have it's own ethos... 
I've done the Mornington Peninsula ride which is motorpaced and in the winter will be 50% pro riders, everyone canes it up the climbs
I've also done more friendly rides where the goal is to not drop people
23 MPH is slow, I've been on some that average 28 for 90 minutes in Philly, that is every man for himself


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

farnsworth said:


> Dudes; my last attempt at discussion of etiquette for hammerfest seemed to have been totally miss read...


I'm a bit confused. In your previous thread

(Etiquette on group rides when you want to step up the pace?

you admitted to (and advocated) doing several d-bag "techniques" on group rides, but now you're complaining about things others do that pale in comparison?


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Somewhere a bridge is missing its troll....


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

You mentioned on a couple of occasions that it's not cool that attacking on steep grades will leave some stranded in the back..."leaving guys out on their own for the last 20 miles". Heck, when you hammer all out in the front, those same guys could be stranded in the back too. So again, if you believe in HTFU rule, then it's HTFU on the flats AND the climbs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

This thread is two years old. The OP left long, long ago. No need to respond to his idiocy.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

This thread is about a pusssy that can't keep up on climbs during group rides.

/thread


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## askmass (Sep 28, 2009)

There's cake?


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

OK, OK. Here's some Cake:


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Yea, it grips me that those mountain goats whine on and on about splitting the group up on the flats, but when the hills come where do they go... to the front to open gaps. 
If your going to 'go' on the climbs, don't complain about 'going' on the flats, just HTFU!


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> This thread is two years old. The OP left long, long ago. No need to respond to his idiocy.


Oops. Didn't realize original post was that long ago 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OwenMeany (Mar 17, 2002)

farnsworth said:


> My personal rules of etiquette are as follows:
> 1) HTFU or don't show up
> 2) Work hard on the front.
> 3) Tempo on climbs, Hammer flats/descents
> ...


There are only (2) Rules for any group ride, No. 1 - Hold Your Line and, No. 2 Don't half Wheel. 

As to "hammerfest"...if you get dropped, the ride is too fast for you....

That is it.


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## biscut (Dec 15, 2016)

Hey Farnsworth...newb here. You'd destroy me I'm sure (or NOT cause you spew a ton of BS). You are why so many mountainbikers decide to just ride a road bike solo and enjoy the alone time.

Something tells me if I asked for an autograph your already have a photo of yourself signed and ready to go.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

OwenMeany said:


> There are only (2) Rules for any group ride, No. 1 - Hold Your Line and, No. 2 Don't half Wheel.
> 
> As to "hammerfest"...if you get dropped, the ride is too fast for you....
> 
> That is it.


I don't think I've ever ridden in any group or race where there wasn't significant half-wheeling. 

Besides, your rule number 1 would render your rule number 2 pointless in the first place.

I'd say simply:

Be predictable, follow the rules of the road, call out any hazards.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

OwenMeany said:


> There are only (2) Rules for any group ride, No. 1 - Hold Your Line and, No. 2 Don't half Wheel.


Uhhh there's more rules than that. I'm particularly fond of the rule "Don't brake". I'll take that one over half wheeling.


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