# Jan Ullrich is the most talented rider in the tour..



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

"... and perhaps the strongest. He just doesn't have the desire and commitment to win."

- Bob Roll - and a host of others...


-F- you bobke. How the heck do you know? Just because Lance told you? Just because he's East German and bred to pedal?

This is the most condescending statement ever and I'm sick of it. It's part of Lance's crap mindgames and Bobke keeps repeating it. To say someone is the best but can't win is an insult of the highest degree.

Clearly Lance has been the best for 5 years. That's why he wins and wins by a lot. He's been the best at climbing and he's the most talented. Jan is too big to be a classic climber and that's where a lot of the chips lie on the Tour.

Jan is Jan. He is a good rider and he's out to prove himself. 

Sorry about the rant. Better get some sleep now so I can get up at 5am tomorrow.

francois


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I read in a Bernard Hinualt interview where he said Jan can't win because he has too much going on in his head. I don't know about you, but Hinault and Bobke probably know a little more about bike racing the TDF than you or I since they have both BEEN THERE.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Jan is ....*

a very talented rider. I think his larger size and heavier weight is more of a factor than his 'lack of dedication'. He has to work that much harder just to keep up with the flyweights in the Mtns. I don't do a ' whose better than..."as it's nonsense.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

spookyload said:


> I read in a Bernard Hinualt interview where he said Jan can't win because he has too much going on in his head. I don't know about you, but Hinault and Bobke probably know a little more about bike racing the TDF than you or I since they have both BEEN THERE.



A lot of people have BEEN THERE and are wrong. I hope you're not afraid to disagree with any of their opinions because of that.

'too much going on in his head'. What does that mean? It's the kind of vague, statement that has no basis. Did someone get in his head last week and check to see all the stuff in there that's preventing him from crushing Lance?

francois


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

francois said:


> "... and perhaps the strongest. He just doesn't have the desire and commitment to win."
> 
> - Bob Roll - and a host of others...
> 
> ...


I don't think it's mind games from Lance. Everyone knows Jan is talented physically, but many pros say he is weak mentally. As far as desire and commitment, there are plenty of examples of Jan doing or not doing things that cost him big later. Crashing after not previewing the final TT last year is one. 

I think Ullrich's dream of winning the Tour again died on the Galibier in 1998. On that day, it was obvious to anyone watching how fragile he was mentally, and I don't think he has ever recovered. Bob Roll is correct.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

mohair_chair said:


> I don't think it's mind games from Lance. Everyone knows Jan is talented physically, but many pros say he is weak mentally. As far as desire and commitment, there are plenty of examples of Jan doing or not doing things that cost him big later. Crashing after not previewing the final TT last year is one.
> 
> I think Ullrich's dream of winning the Tour again died on the Galibier in 1998. On that day, it was obvious to anyone watching how fragile he was mentally, and I don't think he has ever recovered. Bob Roll is correct.



Jan has lost the Tour many times because Lance outclimbs him. Lance is lighter, Lance has the better cadence, and Lance in the past few years has been the best climber in the world. He has crushed all greatest climbers in the world. That is the reason Jan has lost. It's not because his mind is fragile. It's because he's too big and he's not as talented a climber.

At least you didn't say the that 'Jan is the most talented cyclist in the world'. That's really my point here. He is talented but so is the top 10 in the tour. To say most talented is baseless I think.

francois


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## reklar (Mar 15, 2003)

francois said:


> Jan has lost the Tour many times because Lance outclimbs him. Lance is lighter, Lance has the better cadence, and Lance in the past few years has been the best climber in the world. He has crushed all greatest climbers in the world. That is the reason Jan has lost. It's not because his mind is fragile. It's because he's too big and he's not as talented a climber.
> 
> At least you didn't say the that 'Jan is the most talented cyclist in the world'. That's really my point here. He is talented but so is the top 10 in the tour. To say most talented is baseless I think.
> 
> francois


He's more talented to the point that he can come to the tour out of shape/overweight and still finish second. Maybe Armstrong could do that. Anyone else? Doubt it.


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## wheelsucker (Jul 10, 2002)

*Jan could and should have won last year*

Everyone knows Lance is a master at tactics and Jan is not. Last year Jan should have won the tour but didn't attack lance when lance was suffering from the heat. On the day of the final tt, lance walked the course, Jan slept in and watched a video the team manager took of the course. Jan should have won, but that's the difference between winning and losing. Also if you noticed, Jan was climbing a lot better last year, it might be because he's started to spin up the climbes a little more instead of grinding them out.


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## gyroscope (Jul 2, 2004)

*Jan won't win without Vinokourov*

Now its down to Lance, Tyler and Mayo. Jan can't win without a good team.








francois said:


> "... and perhaps the strongest. He just doesn't have the desire and commitment to win."
> 
> - Bob Roll - and a host of others...
> 
> ...


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## bsdc (Feb 15, 2002)

I agree with Bobke a bit. Jan is obviously very talented but he does seem to lack the commitment to win. By that I mean he doesn't stay fit year round. The old european style was to get fat over the winter and try to train and race your way back to shape during the early season. Indurain missed his 6th Tour win because he timed his weight loss wrong. I think one of Lances big advantages is that he doesn't seem to get real out of shape during the winter.


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## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

francois said:


> A lot of people have BEEN THERE and are wrong. I hope you're not afraid to disagree with any of their opinions because of that.
> 
> 'too much going on in his head'. What does that mean? It's the kind of vague, statement that has no basis. Did someone get in his head last week and check to see all the stuff in there that's preventing him from crushing Lance?
> 
> francois



Ever stop to think that Bob Roll, who is a personal friend of Armstrong and knows the man very well, might know a little more about Armstrong than you? Remember that Roll was the guy who Lance called to train with in his post cancer days back in 1998. Roll was the guy Lance came to stay with in Boone, NC to train with. And Roll raced quite a few Tours and knows a little more about what it takes to get thru them then anyone on this board.

Jan is more talented than Lance... the entire cycling world has known it since 1993 when he won the under 23 Worlds and Lance won his World Championship. Jan was picked in 1992 by none other than Sean Kelly as someone who would win the Tour in the next 5 years... guess what??? He was right!

But Lance has a focus on life and career goals that no other rider currently racing has. He nearly lost his dream because of illness... so he is fanatical about his training and preparation. He knows that on pure talent, he doesn't match up to Jan, and has been telling the cycling world that since 1999. But he outworks his rivals and that is why he is successful. 

It's cool you like Lance, I do too... but I also believe Lance and Bob and Phil and Paul when they all say that Jan is a more talented rider. Not a better rider, but more talented with more potential. He just isn't taking advantage of his gift for cycling like Lance has.

Russ


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## Heron Todd (May 20, 2002)

*Lance is NOT Lighter*



francois said:


> Jan has lost the Tour many times because Lance outclimbs him. Lance is lighter,


Yes, Lance climbs better than Jan, but it's not because he's lighter. The official weights on the Tour site show Lance at 75 kg and Jan at 73 kg. Jan was listed as lighter last year as well. Jan is, however, a bit taller.


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## shaq-d (Apr 19, 2004)

gyroscope said:


> Now its down to Lance, Tyler and Mayo. Jan can't win without a good team.


what are you smoking? jan had a HORRIBLE team last year, and podium'd. tyler had a GREAT team, and didn't.

you guys _need_ to get over tyler. he's insanely overrated, mostly because of the american press loving american riders. # of podiums for tyler in the tour: 0. # of podium's for jan: tons, and never worse than 2nd.

sd


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## Spoiler (Jul 6, 2002)

francois said:


> "... and perhaps the strongest. He just doesn't have the desire and commitment to win."
> 
> - Bob Roll - and a host of others...
> 
> ...


Bob is would be correct in saying Jan doesn't have the same desire and committment as Lance. That's not saying he doesn't have more desire and committment than most other riders. Bob correctly pinpointed the only weak areas separating Lance from Jan. 
Jan is spending energy and valuable training time dropping 14 lbs, most of which he wouldn't have gained if he had the desire and committment of Lance.


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## torquecal (Nov 9, 2002)

*Good comments and points made...*

...bottom line; Ullrich places second because of two things, preparation and tactics.

1) Prep: Ullrich is probably the only rider (other than Armstrong) that has prep'd for the TDF only (up until this year). Then why is he a consistent second place? A good argument could be made that his prep is ill prepared and ill directed. You could say Pevanage is not as good a coach as the guys Lance has...

2) Tactics. Ullrich is historically bad at tactics. He's attacked at the wrong times, and failed to respond to attacks at important moments. Yep, the argument can be made that a lot of this is due to his DS and not him, no matter, either way he's made the mistakes.



Now, see him under a DS like Bruyneel or Riis three years ago... 


we might have a different 5 time winner streak going.


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## gala7516 (Mar 29, 2002)

WTF _you _ smoking?!? The guy had a *broken collar * bone and finished fourth! 




shaq-d said:


> what are you smoking? jan had a HORRIBLE team last year, and podium'd. tyler had a GREAT team, and didn't.
> sd


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## spankdoggie (Feb 13, 2004)

I just saw (on OLN) Bob being interviewed. He said: "Lance is second to none." Anybody else see that?


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## wongsifu_mk (Mar 5, 2002)

*Jan on Jan*

From CyclingNews.com today(7/6/04):

"Of course we can always do better, but that's not something that obsesses me," he explained. "It's a question of mentality, which doesn't prevent me from being completely motivated for the start of the Tour de France. Only this race can put me in that mind set.

"If at the end of my career I could have won three Tours, I'll be the happiest man in the world," Ullrich said, comparing his expectations with Armstrong's. "I don't need more than that. I also have a private life, which is becoming more and more important." 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/news/?id=jul04/jul06news5

Sounds to me like the guy's got more on his mind than the TDF. Actually, in a way, more like "the rest of us" when it comes to cycling in general, but, of course, from a pro/champion perspective. Family before bikes. That's what I read.

What does it take to win the TDF? Maybe before Lance, it was whatever the previous champs were doing. If it was the get fat in winter and train/prepare through the Spring races, than Lance has sinced changed that, starting in 1999.

Judging Lance only by the one book I've read, the OLN Lance-waxing Chronicles and press interviews, he's not the kind of guy I'd like to hang out with because unlike Jan, he IS "obsessed". You can't tell me that nothing else in that guy's life suffers from the attention and focus he puts into the TDF. But hey, it's his life.

I think, in looking back at Jan's pro history so far, that the cycling world (fans, teams etc.) has put more pressure on Jan that Jan ever has on himself. Criticism? Nope. I think because he has the potential to be the "best", we expect him to. However, that doesn't take into account what the guy wants for himself and is willing to go after.

I think he can win the TDF again. He reminded us of that potential again last year. However, perhaps not being "obsessed" can make all the difference.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Very good points and good insight.

Today, I look at Jan differently from the Jan of two years ago. I guess you can say that he won me over in last year's TDF. After all the fat-boy scrutiny, the look, the ecstacy, the dui, the knee injury and team troubles, he came back last year on half-assed team. He fought hard and he could have won. He should have won. He didn't win.

So here he is again this year, giving it his best. He's relaxed but focused and seems like a really balanced guy happy to be racing and happy to have a nice new family.

So there. You don't need to be the most talented, just the most fastest.

francois


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