# motorpacing



## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't get motorpacing.
I haven't used it much as a training tool myself -- just sort of a scary thing that has happened on occasion, where some well-meaning nutcase will pace other nutcases in much graver danger, I being one of the endangered nutcases.

but, riddle me this -- if my goal is put out a good hour effort, for example, what difference does it make whether I'm pacing a car at 35 or going solo at 25 (I just picked these numbers -- their absolute values are irrelevant to the discussion; don't pick), other than the gear I'm using and actual speed I'm traveling? I would seem to be at the exact same level of exertion, just at a lower air resistance and correspondintgly higher speed, for the exact same training benefit.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Specificity, Specificity, Specificity.


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## slideeslide (Feb 1, 2007)

If motorpacing properly(behind a scooter, moto) and not behind a car it can mimick a fast race like non-other. I can do a one hour workout, but nothing will keep me as consistent as a moto. You are completely punished if you let off the pedals for a sec. It really teaches consistent power.

If I could show you my power files from motopacing vs. the same workout without and it us quite clear. My best 20min power has been behind a moto. Sprinting around a moto going 30mph is much different than solo sprinting at 25mph. 

I was in the same boat as you until I did one, then I understood.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

keeping the wheel -- that's true. that's a good point. that is a big difference.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

My most recent motorpacing escapade was along the hilly coast in NorCal. I lasted about 45-50min or so and it was, honest to god, harder than an FTP test.

There are so many microbursts of power and even large fluctuations to hold onto the draft, especially as the terrain changes. It's similar to the hardest crit you've ever done, except you can replicate it in training...and there is never any collective slowing of the pace. It's sort of like racing yourself into shape, without the racing.


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## crispy010 (Jan 26, 2009)

So what you're saying is I need to find a friend who has a scooter and loads and loads of free time?


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

crispy010 said:


> So what you're saying is I need to find a friend who has a scooter and loads and loads of free time?


Motorpacing is dangerous and I do not condone it under any circumstances.

But yes, a scooter seems to work best :thumbsup:


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

First off, I do not motorpace currently. My training time is limited enough, and trying to fit a willing partner into that schedule is never going to work. Years ago I was in a big club and we had a coach with scooter+roller bar and I would do 1-2 workouts per week. I was definitely better adapted to speed back then, and I wish I still had the opportunity to motorpace. It definitely helps prepare a rider for the speed of racing and makes the early races much easier from an speed and acceleration standpoint. One should always use a scooter, the ideal setup has a roller on the back so if your front wheel touches you will not crash. Doing it behind a car is not anywhere as effective, plus it adds a significant danger factor. The draft is too large, the rider's visiblity to anything on the road is completely limited, and if the car has to brake suddenly there is little chance of manouevering around it.

Fundamentally, there should be no difference between riding the same power behind the moto as there is riding it solo, from a physiological standpoint. But as others have pointed out, the moto will never be perfectly constant and the rider has to adapt to hold the wheel. Plus, there is a neuro-muscular component to the adaptation of pedaling at 50 km/h versus 40 km/h. The truth of the matter is, the top pros motorpace and obviously it works for them. Common training for a classics rider is to do 4 hours and then meet up with scooter and do another 2 hours at speed. I live near the home base of Svein Tuft and have trained on the same roads as him for many years. His superb 2007 and 2008 seasons are a result of better training and the biggest difference for him was spending hours and hours behind his father-piloted scooter. In the lead-up to the Olympics and Worlds last year he was doing some 240 km days behind the scooter.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

I have a scooter that I use for motorpacing on the road but in the summer and fall months, I motorpace regularly on the track. It is key in preparing for certain races. It's not like regular training and should not take the place of regular training. It is for bringing on speed and preparing.

Motorpacing behind a car is not nearly as effective. It's like the difference between major league baseball and your local co-ed kickball league. Sure, there are round balls and bases involved but that's about it. Unless you are doing specific speed/sprint drills, you can sit behind a car and hardly touch the pedals - IF your know what you're doing. If you're a total wanker with it or you're just not that good a rider, then, well yeah, anything like that will seem hard.

Ideally, you would have a motor with a fender (not a roller). It makes no difference from safety: all the paint is rubbed off the rear fender on my scooter. The problem with the roller is that it keeps your from getting close enough to the rear wheel and, if you are doing madison exchanges, sometimes it is possible to clip the corner of the roller as you throw in the relief rider.

Getting ready to start breaking it out again as I start getting race fit. Maybe in another 3 weeks or so I'll start adding the speed.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

its mostly psychological, if your riding at 30mph behind a car, you have to hold that speed over whatever terrain the car goes over, so you bouncing up and under you threshold going supra maximal and then 'recovering' in the draft again, all the while thinking F*ck me Im going 30mph! - and if your mind is good your legs are good.


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## StevenG (Nov 19, 2005)

Anybody have any advise to pass along to a potential motobike driver. What does the driver need to know to make a quality and safe motorpacing session?


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Don't brake suddenly, and don't hit potholes/bumps.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Andrea138 said:


> Don't brake suddenly, and don't hit potholes/bumps.


Pretend you're riding a bicycle at 35mph. Avoid all bumps, point out potential ones, and create a horn/beeping/hand signal system to communicate any and everything.


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## shayne (Aug 4, 2005)

I'm a newly upgraded cat 3 (10 days ago). Last weekend, after my first cat 3 crit, I jumped into the P123 race. Just hung out near the back as I didn't want to get in anyones way and it was a training thing for me. I was pretty much cooked after 15 min., but kept telling myself to try and stay on for 1 more lap. Ended up lasting 47 min. and once I went OTB I couldn't hold 18 mph back to the line in order to drop out.

So my question is: Is this similar to a motorpacing workout? It was a positive experience for me and I've already signed up to do it again this weekend.:thumbsup:


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

I want to know what damn scooters ya'll have that go 35 mph, cause I've never seen one get close...


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

gegarrenton said:


> I want to know what damn scooters ya'll have that go 35 mph, cause I've never seen one get close...


Get one with a real engine on it mine will hit 65 easy.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> Get one with a real engine on it mine will hit 65 easy.


A scooter? Not a motorcycle, but a scooter? I mean, my CR250 will run 90, but it has a 50hp motor and only weighs about 200lbs. Maybe all the guys that run scooters around here are sandbagging.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

*Terminology?*



gegarrenton said:


> A scooter? Not a motorcycle, but a scooter? I mean, my CR250 will run 90, but it has a 50hp motor and only weighs about 200lbs. Maybe all the guys that run scooters around here are sandbagging.


My scooter has a 180 cc engine (about 20 hp, I think) and it definitely gets up to 65, even two-up (not that you'd want to spend much time at that speed). That's not atypical of scooters around Europe and much of Asia. Suzuki makes (made?) a 650 cc in their Burgman line of scooters, and I know people who use them as highway vehicles in the U.S. (although I've heard that they're too powerful for easy motopacing except on truly flat terrain).

But I think I saw something in the (California?) vehicle code that treated "scooters" as only 49 cc or smaller---maybe that's what you mean?


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

Undecided said:


> My scooter has a 180 cc engine (about 20 hp, I think) and it definitely gets up to 65, even two-up (not that you'd want to spend much time at that speed). That's not atypical of scooters around Europe and much of Asia. Suzuki makes (made?) a 650 cc in their Burgman line of scooters, and I know people who use them as highway vehicles in the U.S. (although I've heard that they're too powerful for easy motopacing except on truly flat terrain).
> 
> But I think I saw something in the (California?) vehicle code that treated "scooters" as only 49 cc or smaller---maybe that's what you mean?


Yeah, I kinda figured out we were talking about different things. Anywhere I have been a scooter is defined with a less than 50cc engine. Makes sense now.


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## ghetto b (Sep 28, 2008)

My old Tomos Targa (49cc) would top out at about 35mph. I had a friend whos scooter was highly modified and did about 60mph.


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