# Why do all the pros have their stems attached directly to the head tube?



## HarryHood77 (Dec 14, 2009)

Or at least it seems like they all do, I haven't seen any guys who use spacers or who don't have a pretty extreme drop down to the handlebars. Is this purely for the aerodynamic advantage? I can't imagine it being more comfortable but maybe after so many years of race training they don't mind the extreme position?


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

To quote Layne Staley..."yeah"


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

You kinda answered your own question. It is partially for an aerodynamic advantage. It is also to maximize power. I can't imagine that it's overly comfortable either. But when you've been training as long as these folks have (and are in the kind of shape they are in), I guess you get used to it.


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## Dr. Nob (Oct 8, 2007)

Define "comfortable".


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

If you can scrunch that low and pedal comfortably at the same time go for it....


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm no pro, but here's "before":











and "after":











I took out a bit over an inch of spacers & went from a 7 degree drop to a 10 degree drop stem. I'm more aerodynamic, AND more comfortable. I left one small spacer is all. I have much less back pain now, also.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

frpax said:


> I'm no pro, but here's "before":
> and "after":
> I took out a bit over an inch of spacers & went from a 7 degree drop to a 10 degree drop stem. I'm more aerodynamic, AND more comfortable. I left one small spacer is all. I have much less back pain now, also.


I have a similar experience. I've been a cycling related backache sufferer for decades. No form of treatment, and I've tried lots, has improved me one iota - until this year. I switched to a new physiotherapist - one who is not a cyclist. She had me video tape myself, on the rollers, from side, front and rear. This, along with a physical evaluation of me, showed her many things.

Her instruction was for me to increase my stem from 100mm to 130mm, flip it down (I'd had it flipped up thinking a higher position was better for me) and to remove some spacers. She then gave me on-bike drills to help me adapt to the new longer, lower position - to help flatten my back (at L4-L5 where my problem is). I do a ride per week of on-bike core stability and position adaption (a la Chris Boardman) exercises. I also do very specific (for me) strengthening exercises with weights at home. I can now ride with my head 5" lower than it ever was (can you imagine how much more aerodynamic I am?) and I can ride comfortably all the way down until my thighs start to bump into my lower rib cage. And all this with *reduced* backache - it now comes on after about 40-60 minutes where it used to be after 20 minutes, regular as clockwork. She's optimistic that she can cure my backache totally. 

I'm not as optimistic as she is but there has been such an improvement in my style, position and backache that I'm in this for the long haul.

I've put so much dedicated effort into this that it feels weird to ride in the "normal" straight-arm upright position now.

So the articles and suggestions that I read about that suggest a shorter and more upright position for cycling backache sufferers make me laugh - that might be ok for some people but just the opposite is right for me. It took a very smart physiotherapist and a person willing to try *anything* to get some relief - me. I'm 62 and have been in this game since I was 14.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Opus51569 said:


> It is partially for an aerodynamic advantage. It is also to maximize power. I can't imagine that it's overly comfortable either. But when you've been training as long as these folks have (and are in the kind of shape they are in), I guess you get used to it.


A lower position allows for more power from the prime source of pedaling force - the gluteus muscles. As for the "comfort" part, see my post here to *frpax*. We can adapt.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

One cautionary note...

All fits evolve (slowly) over time, with the pro's setups being extreme examples of that. 

As two posters noted, due to a variety of physiological reasons there are instances where lower saddle to bar drop (relatively speaking) can minimize back pain, but before trying this at home (as they say) IME _the majority _of riders are apt to suffer neck, shoulder, back and/ or hand pain if they exceed the limits their bodies can tolerate at any point in time.


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

Higher bars only lower stress on your back if you also shorten the reach of the stem.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Fai Mao said:


> Higher bars only lower stress on your back if you also shorten the reach of the stem.


Raising the bars effectively does that. As the bars move higher, they also move back toward the saddle, due to the head tube angle.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> One cautionary note...
> 
> All fits evolve (slowly) over time, with the pro's setups being extreme examples of that.
> 
> As two posters noted, due to a variety of physiological reasons there are instances where lower saddle to bar drop (relatively speaking) can minimize back pain, but before trying this at home (as they say) IME _the majority _of riders are apt to suffer neck, shoulder, back and/ or hand pain if they exceed the limits their bodies can tolerate at any point in time.


Good advice, PJ.
I'd love to look pro too, but my neck kills me when I'm in the drops too long- I shudder to think what lowering the bars and lengthening the stem would do to me!
Awesome that it works out for some of you though...


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Great posts there Mike T. 

I'm also going through the same as you on both counts, back position and sadle position


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## EverydayRide (Sep 12, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> A lower position allows for more power from the prime source of pedaling force - the gluteus muscles. As for the "comfort" part, see my post here to *frpax*. We can adapt.


I commute. But prior when competitively racing we dropped the bars as low as possible and always rode the drop portion.

I have a super six Cannondale. I've dropped the bars straight into the head set/head tube. I commute with a nap sack [5-6 kilograms] daily. I want to be low for control as not being top heavy can cause a 16 lb bike to do funny things. I really find much more control laid flat on the bike, braking, cornering, down hill, etc then riding the top of the handle bars. I ride mostly in the drops and no spacers. 

I'm riding an Antares saddle and have moved the position up front more so then with the other saddle that came with the bike, an Antares. I could not ride the top of the bars under any condition actually. Always ride the drops for maneuverability. Low, in control.

Your opinion may vary.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

*I'm definitely not a pro.*

But I'm comfortable.

Only reason I want to change bars (but keep the same stem setting) is to further dial in my out-of-the-saddle position for climbing. Compact bends would place things a bit better in that regard. Regardless, I can't feel any stress on my back or shoulders at all.


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## EverydayRide (Sep 12, 2008)

seat's not level


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

EverydayRide said:


> seat's not level


I'm one to scoot forward at certain times, and that angle makes for a more "flat" feeling from end-to-end when I make the transition. It's an Aliante, and considering a flatter Arione (Versus or Tri2) to replace it.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

That is an insane amount of drop. Reminds me of some of the TT bikes on Rabobank.


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## EverydayRide (Sep 12, 2008)

Ventruck said:


> I'm one to scoot forward at certain times, and that angle makes for a more "flat" feeling from end-to-end when I make the transition. It's an Aliante, and considering a flatter Arione (Versus or Tri2) to replace it.


I'm totally kidding with you.  

I ride the front part of my seat as well, and it's always a subject of discussion. Don't pay heed to my remark, I was just kidding you in the sense that we're similar.

Cool.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

*Didn't take it as a joke,*



EverydayRide said:


> I'm totally kidding with you.
> 
> I ride the front part of my seat as well, and it's always a subject of discussion. Don't pay heed to my remark, I was just kidding you in the sense that we're similar.
> 
> Cool.


...or insult of any matter. I'm often being objectively questioned/commented about my setup, so I'm "automatic" with answers. All is well.


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## c_kyle (May 28, 2010)

As a new road rider, what are the signs that I should increase the drop? Currently, I have just flipped the stem, and now the top of the handlebars are just a hair lower than the saddle. I ride a lot in the drop position. It's more comfortable that the hoods.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

EverydayRide said:


> seat's not level


level?

it's not even in the same zip code as the rest of the bike...


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

The old school rule of thumb was that the bar (tops) should be lower than your saddle by 3 or 4 cm's. You could try that and see what sort of adjustment you want/need from there.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

c_kyle said:


> As a new road rider, what are the signs that I should increase the drop? Currently, I have just flipped the stem, and now the top of the handlebars are just a hair lower than the saddle. I ride a lot in the drop position. It's more comfortable that the hoods.


IMO/E it's best to make any adjustments to fit one at a time, in small increments and slowly, allowing your body time to adapt. If you've 'just' flipped your stem down, and assuming no changes to spacers were made, you've already made a substantial adjustment to saddle to bar drop. Give it some time (several rides and a couple of weeks) before making additional adjustments. 

To answer your question about signs that you 'should' increase saddle to bar drop further, one indicator I use is if I frequently find myself increasing bend at the elbows, which essentially does the same thing. Even then, I'd keep adjustments to 5mm's with some saddle time between additional changes.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

PJ352 said:


> To answer your question about signs that you 'should' increase saddle to bar drop further, one indicator I use is if I frequently find myself increasing bend at the elbows, which essentially does the same thing. Even then, I'd keep adjustments to 5mm's with some saddle time between additional changes.


I've gone through this process this year (see my other post) and adapted to a longer and lower position by the Chris Boardman (**) method as condoned by my physiotherapist.

The method is to adopt the lower and longer position (I did it while waiting for a 3cm longer stem to arrive) by extending out on the hoods by two fingers and bending the elbows and flattening the back - then (this is the Boardman method) riding in that position for about 7-10 seconds hard in a very high gear while holding the body core rigid. Ease up, rest and repeat. I did one ride per week like this (plus 2-3 other rides). After just a few weeks the new longer.lower position becomes natural. I fitted the 3cm longer stem (130mm) and still I extend on the hoods by two fingers. So I have a much longer, lower position than before and it feels weird now to ride more upright.

** Chris Boardman - specialist, world champion, world record holder and Olympic champion in timetrial, pursuit, world hour record and grand tour prologues & timetrials.


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## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

there are alot of pro's usin spacers under the stem. I think it depends. on the geometry and fit. and ofcourse they are used to strech out. you wont see them using more than one or 2 small spacer thou


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

I flipped my stem and shortened it by 10mm last year and now I'm much more comfortable. I find that I'm better balanced over the bike now and more comfortable in the drops as well. I have about 4 inches of drop between the bars and saddle.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Perhaps the high level pro's are not using off the shelf sizing so there's no reason for their bikes to be made to need spacers whereas something in a store sold to the masses needs to accomodate for various drop preference.


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## c_kyle (May 28, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> IMO/E it's best to make any adjustments to fit one at a time, in small increments and slowly, allowing your body time to adapt. If you've 'just' flipped your stem down, and assuming no changes to spacers were made, you've already made a substantial adjustment to saddle to bar drop. Give it some time (several rides and a couple of weeks) before making additional adjustments.
> 
> To answer your question about signs that you 'should' increase saddle to bar drop further, one indicator I use is if I frequently find myself increasing bend at the elbows, which essentially does the same thing. Even then, I'd keep adjustments to 5mm's with some saddle time between additional changes.


OK, thanks for the info. I've ridden about 75 miles with the flipped stem. I'll keep it like this for a few weeks, then lower it. Without getting new spacers, I can lower in 1cm increments.

The Boardman method sounds interesting. I'm new to road riding, but can already tell that core strength and stability is a major player.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

c_kyle said:


> OK, thanks for the info. I've ridden about 75 miles with the flipped stem. I'll keep it like this for a few weeks, then lower it. Without getting new spacers, I can lower in 1cm increments.
> 
> The Boardman method sounds interesting. I'm new to road riding, but can already tell that core strength and stability is a major player.


You're welcome, and I think your plan is a sound one.

For the record, I'm not promoting what Mike T professes. While the course of action he describes apparently worked well for him, IMO others would be wise to keep in mind that that both physiology and bike set up are somewhat unique, and in his scenario he was under a professionals care and direction. 

Generally speaking and IME most large changes made to remedy fit issues are likely to cause another.


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