# 4 Feet Law Proposed in New Jersey



## AlanE (Jan 22, 2002)

NJ drivers would have to give cyclists and pedestrians more space under proposed law | NJ.com

And naturally, you can expect to see a rash of comments hostile to cyclists. I usually post pro-cyclist comments to try and offset the hostility.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

We got the 4ft law in PA in 2012. Know how much change I saw afterwards? Zero.
Without education, enforcement and punishment, it's just feel good legislation. I've never met a non cyclist who even knew there was such a law.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

one of the towns I live near.... the police chief is a cyclist, as are many of his officers....

so I think at least one town, it would be enforced.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

tlg said:


> Without education, enforcement and punishment, it's just feel good legislation.


sorta like bike lanes in nyc.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

tednugent said:


> one of the towns I live near.... the police chief is a cyclist, as are many of his officers....
> 
> so I think at least one town, it would be enforced.


How? Will they be out there with tape measures, measuring cars as they pass? 
Anyone cited for violating the law simply needs to go to court and fight it. How will the officer prove it was 3.6ft and not 4.1ft? 
A lawyer would have a field day with it. Were the officers eyes calibrated? Most people really have no idea how to measure. Ask the officer to hold his hands 4ft apart. Then hold up a tape measure and show how far off he is.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

tlg said:


> How? Will they be out there with tape measures, measuring cars as they pass?
> Anyone cited for violating the law simply needs to go to court and fight it. How will the officer prove it was 3.6ft and not 4.1ft?
> A lawyer would have a field day with it. Were the officers eyes calibrated? Most people really have no idea how to measure. Ask the officer to hold his hands 4ft apart. Then hold up a tape measure and show how far off he is.


it's quite easy in more rural areas, because in order to meet the 4 ft rule, you have to be more than halfway into the opposing lane due to not having a shoulder and low traffic density... this factors into the lane width, as well as speed limit.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

tednugent said:


> it's quite easy in more rural areas, because in order to meet the 4 ft rule, you have to be more than halfway into the opposing lane... and one of the towns I speak of is in a more rural area.


I still don't get how you'd measure that. If the cyclist isn't hugging the shoulder, the car could be half way in the other lane and not giving 4ft clearance. Not really a concrete method that'd hold up in court. And in my rural area most of the back roads don't even have lines down the middle to identify lanes.

It'd be so easy to dispute the officers judgment in court.


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## AlanE (Jan 22, 2002)

tlg said:


> I still don't get how you'd measure that. If the cyclist isn't hugging the shoulder, the car could be half way in the other lane and not giving 4ft clearance. Not really a concrete method that'd hold up in court. And in my rural area most of the back roads don't even have lines down the middle to identify lanes.
> 
> It'd be so easy to dispute the officers judgment in court.


I have one word for you: Dash Cam (ok that's 2 words). Every patrol car has them these days.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

tlg said:


> I still don't get how you'd measure that. If the cyclist isn't hugging the shoulder, the car could be half way in the other lane and not giving 4ft clearance. Not really a concrete method that'd hold up in court. And in my rural area most of the back roads don't even have lines down the middle to identify lanes.
> 
> It'd be so easy to dispute the officers judgment in court.


in cases for vehicular speeding, speed estimation techniques also hold up in court. Estimation techniques are allowed.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

AlanE said:


> I have one word for you: Dash Cam (ok that's 2 words). Every patrol car has them these days.


That'd possibly work so long as the car was grossly close to the cyclist. And the officer actually saves the recorded video and brings it to court. Not sure if their procedures are to save recorded video for every single traffic offense. I'll have to ask my friend who's a cop.



tednugent said:


> in cases for vehicular speeding, speed estimation techniques also hold up in court. Estimation techniques are allowed.


And easy to beat in court. My fathers an attorney. He LOVES those cases. 
It's common to question the accuracy/testing/calibration of radar equipment and win. Doesn't take much at all to dispute a cops guestimation.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

you can always be this guy:






or roadkill


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

tednugent said:


> you can always be this guy:
> 
> or roadkill


More like... You can be this guy AND roadkill. Looks like a good way to get PO'd motorists to attack you.


Or this.


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## mtrac (Sep 23, 2013)

This bill seems like a solution looking for a problem at best, and a problem in itself at worst. NJ is loaded with older communities that have narrow streets and cars parked along both sides of them. Where will the four feet come from?

I already get pretty good cooperation from motorists, heavy vehicle operators in particular. My main concern is always intersections, which this proposed law helps not a whit.


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## rlb81 (Feb 2, 2010)

I also don't really see how this helps. IMO it probably does more to piss off motorists, those who are actually aware of it. That guy seemed pretty into his flag, but sticking a 3ft flag off of your bike is just inviting trouble.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

tlg said:


> We got the 4ft law in PA in 2012. Know how much change I saw afterwards? Zero.
> Without education, enforcement and punishment, it's just feel good legislation. I've never met a non cyclist who even knew there was such a law.


This. I like the 4 ft law but am fine with 3. What I want is education and enforcement.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

An email yesterday from the League of American Bicyclists asking cyclists to contact the head of the Transportation Committee said, "A1577 requires motorists operating vehicles to maintain minimum three foot safety distance when overtaking bicycles."

In fact, A1577 proposes a three foot rule, not four:
NJ A1577 | 2014-2015 | Regular Session | LegiScan


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## robnj (Sep 26, 2013)

Nice idea, but as stated, doubt it will ever be enforced.


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## Rip Van Cycle (Jun 11, 2012)

tlg said:


> We got the 4ft law in PA in 2012. Know how much change I saw afterwards? Zero.
> Without education, enforcement and punishment, it's just feel good legislation. I've never met a non cyclist who even knew there was such a law.


Such a law would rival "yield-to-Public-Transit-Bus-reentering-traffic" for 'flout-percentage.' 

Of course, it doesn't help that NJ Transit buses have the notice posted on the back of the bus in really small print (by traffic-sign standards). You see, if they made it larger, that might compromise their precious commercial sign-advertising revenue...


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## stoked (Aug 6, 2004)

The bottom line is as a cyclist are you for this law or against it? I don't care what motorists think about the law(I do own a car) I am all for education and that sometimes happens with help of enforcement. Just last week a cyclist got run over by a drunk driver in Edgewater which was on my usual route. It may or may not have helped this unlucky cyclist (RIP) but it would be nice not to hear the words "get off the road" on pretty much every other ride. 

I did not know that PA had this law. Last year when we did the covered bridges ride in Bucks County PA, a guy in a volvo wagon with NY plates was trying to run some of us off the road(kept on honking and driving less than 2 feet away). Cyclist were single file but his lane was narrow with no oncoming traffic. He was one of those "going to teach them a lesson" kind of driver. I could not say that most of the local drivers observed that law especially that prick from NY.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

stoked said:


> The bottom line is as a cyclist are you for this law or against it? I don't care what motorists think about the law(I do own a car) I am all for education and that sometimes happens with help of enforcement. Just last week a cyclist got run over by a drunk driver in Edgewater which was on my usual route. It may or may not have helped this unlucky cyclist (RIP) but it would be nice not to hear the words "get off the road" on pretty much every other ride.
> 
> I did not know that PA had this law. Last year when we did the covered bridges ride in Bucks County PA, a guy in a volvo wagon with NY plates was trying to run some of us off the road(kept on honking and driving less than 2 feet away). Cyclist were single file but his lane was narrow with no oncoming traffic. He was one of those "going to teach them a lesson" kind of driver. I could not say that most of the local drivers observed that law especially that prick from NY.


I am for this since I figure it can't hurt but I would rather see resources dedicated to education and enforcement. 

I think the first may have to come from private sources. I would not trust our government to do anything meaningful with this.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

stoked said:


> The bottom line is as a cyclist are you for this law or against it? I don't care what motorists think about the law(I do own a car) I am all for education and that sometimes happens with help of enforcement. Just last week a cyclist got run over by a drunk driver in Edgewater which was on my usual route. It may or may not have helped this unlucky cyclist (RIP) but it would be nice not to hear the words "get off the road" on pretty much every other ride.
> 
> I did not know that PA had this law. Last year when we did the covered bridges ride in Bucks County PA, a guy in a volvo wagon with NY plates was trying to run some of us off the road(kept on honking and driving less than 2 feet away). Cyclist were single file but his lane was narrow with no oncoming traffic. He was one of those "going to teach them a lesson" kind of driver. I could not say that most of the local drivers observed that law especially that prick from NY.


As a driver, I am for this law, just like the "emergency vehicles on the shoulder" law... luckily most drivers in my, are not afraid of slowing down, nor crossing the double yellow for cyclists.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Safe passing laws are good in writing, but the enforcement is often abysmal. As a cyclist you won't be able to get a driver cited unless there is an actual collision _*with*_ witnesses or if you wear a helmet cam. Plus, some of these laws can be open to interpretation. In NY there is no minimum separation distance, but rather a motorist is only required to pass at a "reasonably safe distance". That definitely depends on who is making the judgment. However, I've discovered a couple ways of discouraging reckless overtaking if taking the lane doesn't work. Motorists (myself included) really hate the idea of getting their cars scratched. If I unclip my left shoe or hold out my kubotan, those are enough of a deterrent to keep the unsavory motorists in check. If your objection is that it will piss off said motorist, well boo hoo for them. What are they going to do--run me over or harass me while my conspicuous camera is rolling? Good luck to them.


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## nwkcc (May 30, 2014)

stoked said:


> The bottom line is as a cyclist are you for this law or against it? I don't care what motorists think about the law(I do own a car) I am all for education and that sometimes happens with help of enforcement. Just last week a cyclist got run over by a drunk driver in Edgewater which was on my usual route. It may or may not have helped this unlucky cyclist (RIP) but it would be nice not to hear the words "get off the road" on pretty much every other ride.
> 
> I did not know that PA had this law. Last year when we did the covered bridges ride in Bucks County PA, a guy in a volvo wagon with NY plates was trying to run some of us off the road(kept on honking and driving less than 2 feet away). Cyclist were single file but his lane was narrow with no oncoming traffic. He was one of those "going to teach them a lesson" kind of driver. I could not say that most of the local drivers observed that law especially that prick from NY.


I agree, anything is better than nothing, however as others have posted it comes down to interpretation and attitude. I also ride through Edgewater along River Road, and it's the 1% who consider the road "theirs" that really are starting to aggravate me. 

I can deal with the unknown, the unpredictable, the pure unfortunate of an accident, what I can't comprehend are the inconsiderate people who see us cyclist, honk and then try to threaten us with their vehicles. Especially the NJ Transit buses. So this law will not respond to this law because they already do it on purpose.

Even if I move as far over to the curb I only put myself at risk, so I've come to the conclusion that its better to ride farther to the left so that cars are forced to move into other lane, they are then more afraid of hitting another car and slow down.

Think of it like this, a cop said that maybe I could be considered impeding traffic, however if I'm allowed on the road I am allowed to drive where it is safe. So I'd rather keep the *******s behind me and hopefully they'll run into eachother and not me.

As for the camera, depending on the angle and what it captures it's just as likely to find you at fault for something even unrelated.


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## MisterMike (Aug 12, 2004)

I've always seen these as "pile on" charges. Nobody ever gets stopped for them. They just get tacked onto violations when something bad happens. Like after an accident someone gets charged with it on another long laundry list of violations.


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## AlanE (Jan 22, 2002)

One step closer - assembly passes 4 foot bill.
Move over? NJ Assembly passes bill to require 4 foot buffer between drivers, cyclists | NJ.com


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

AlanE said:


> One step closer - assembly passes 4 foot bill.
> Move over? NJ Assembly passes bill to require 4 foot buffer between drivers, cyclists | NJ.com



Good news. Now enforce it.

Also like the second, although $500 seems a little low.


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