# Is there a reference list for chinese frameset copies? post here.



## walamt (Jun 7, 2011)

I thought to start another thread for those looking for a reference list of chinese frameset copies. The Pinarello and Colango's are easy to reference but if you know of other's like Wilier, Carrera etc please post the model and its copy source. Keep it straight forward

Original: ____
Copy: Model, supplier.


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## WoodyCT (Aug 15, 2009)

Great idea- I was wondering if anyone could connect any of the generic carbon frames to specific known bike brands. 

EX. - "The XYZ frame being sold by ABC of Hong Kong is actually the same frame sold as a Giant Defy Advanced."


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

How many knockoff frame threads does one forum need?

Maybe you should have your own forum at this point, just to keep it all contained...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

WoodyCT said:


> Great idea- I was wondering if anyone could connect any of the generic carbon frames to specific known bike brands.
> 
> EX. - "The XYZ frame being sold by ABC of Hong Kong is actually the same frame sold as a Giant Defy Advanced."


That SHOULD be: "The XYZ frame being sold by ABC of Hong Kong is actually A COPY OF the Giant Defy Advanced."

In this case, Giant makes their own frames. They don't have Hong Fu cranking out crappy copies for them, do they? Of course not.

Most of these copies are just that. Only a few bike brands actually use a generic "catalog model" as their own. They design the frames themselves and have a major manufacturer build it for them. I can guarantee that manufacturer is not Hong Fu, Deng Fu, or any other of the places cranking out these copies.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Yah let's make a list.


1. Chinese knock off = crap.
2. 


Whelp, that's about it.


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## Frith (Oct 3, 2002)

I find it really annoying that the chinese carbon frames don't have their own sub-forum. Instead we get threads with hundreds of replies which is almost impossible to find any specific information in. We get threads like this in which people complain that there is already too many posts on the matter.

This forum software has a built in solution to these problems (sub-forums). It would take less than a minute to implement. I suspect that RBR doesn't want to piss off it's sponsors by giving credence to the Chinese frames. If that's the case I wonder if the forum is here to support the advertisers or the other way round.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

If I was in the market for a low cost (not cheap) carbon frame, I would look no further than Neuvation. He sources his frames from Taiwan and his prices and service can't be beat. It will cost more than a knock-off or generic carbon, but you can call a guy in the US if you have a problem and he'll make it right. Watch the video link on the website to understand how he sources his frames and why his costs are low. There are some good frames coming out of China, but they're still years behind Taiwan.


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## slowpoke888 (Jul 16, 2011)

bigbill said:


> If I was in the market for a low cost (not cheap) carbon frame, I would look no further than Neuvation. He sources his frames from Taiwan and his prices and service can't be beat. It will cost more than a knock-off or generic carbon, but you can call a guy in the US if you have a problem and he'll make it right. Watch the video link on the website to understand how he sources his frames and why his costs are low. There are some good frames coming out of China, but they're still years behind Taiwan.


Just curious, do you have any sources to back up the blanket statement that China is "years behind Taiwan" in frames?


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

slowpoke888 said:


> Just curious, do you have any sources to back up the blanket statement that China is "years behind Taiwan" in frames?


No trolls please.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Frith said:


> I find it really annoying that the chinese carbon frames don't have their own sub-forum. Instead we get threads with hundreds of replies which is almost impossible to find any specific information in. We get threads like this in which people complain that there is already too many posts on the matter.
> 
> This forum software has a built in solution to these problems (sub-forums). It would take less than a minute to implement. I suspect that RBR doesn't want to piss off it's sponsors by giving credence to the Chinese frames. If that's the case I wonder if the forum is here to support the advertisers or the other way round.


The forums are here to make money through advertising. That's all the parent company cares about. Any beliefs otherwise are pure delusion.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

slowpoke888 said:


> Just curious, do you have any sources to back up the blanket statement that China is "years behind Taiwan" in frames?


Sorry tihsepa.

China is a manufacturing nation. They manufacture technology that developed outside of China. They build to a specification or they try to copy an existing design. There are some quality frames made in China but they were designed and developed elsewhere. Taiwan has been a leader in design and manufacture of carbon fiber components (bikes, airplane fuselage, etc) so China as a manufacturing nation will lag Taiwan in technology.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

bigbill said:


> If I was in the market for a low cost (not cheap) carbon frame, I would look no further than Neuvation. He sources his frames from Taiwan and his prices and service can't be beat.


I agree that Neuvation has a great return policy however do they sell their frames without the name. As I understand, one of the strong points of the Chinese frames is their lack of name brands on the tubes. 

I have seen a great deal of no name Chinese carbon bikes around town, and they do seem to be holding up very well.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

bigbill said:


> Sorry tihsepa.
> 
> China is a manufacturing nation. They manufacture technology that developed outside of China. They build to a specification or they try to copy an existing design. There are some quality frames made in China but they were designed and developed elsewhere. Taiwan has been a leader in design and manufacture of carbon fiber components (bikes, airplane fuselage, etc) so China as a manufacturing nation will lag Taiwan in technology.


Noted. Thanks.


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## walamt (Jun 7, 2011)

The point for this thread is if someone is looking for specific design then they look at a one thread not troll through countless non specific posts but it looks like by the posts already made no one is interested.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Original:
https://www.xpa-cycling.com/products_data.php?htm=32.html&key=1









Model: 

Museeuw MCTT










Marinoni Rewind









Planet X Exocet.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

bigbill said:


> If I was in the market for a low cost (not cheap) carbon frame, I would look no further than Neuvation. He sources his frames from Taiwan and his prices and service can't be beat. It will cost more than a knock-off or generic carbon, but you can call a guy in the US if you have a problem and he'll make it right. Watch the video link on the website to understand how he sources his frames and why his costs are low. There are some good frames coming out of China, but they're still years behind Taiwan.


Agree. Lovin my FC100. John and Nevin are great guys to deal with also. :thumbsup:


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Xpace open mold sold as various brands.



wevergo said:


>


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

bigbill said:


> There are some good frames coming out of China, but they're still years behind Taiwan.


Clueless. Everybody has their frame manufacturing in China now. Even the high quality Taiwanese & Japanese manufacturers have moved production to China. 

Ten Tech (Scott) 
C-tech (Giants carbon division also do Colnago) 
Martec (own Kuota) 
PMG (Cervelo)


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## oldcannondale (Jul 23, 2011)

Although they tend to copy or steal tech, they are in many instances quite succesfull and their quality is improving. Their limitations are in extremely high tech machine work for tech marvels such a nuclear submarines, stealth fighters, military equipment in general. Even the venerable Colt 1911, manufactored and marketed by Norinco, was rather crude compared to a Colt. Functional? with certain ammo most of the time. Just to illustrate their large Nuke boats spend most of their time tied up at the dock, while ours are or at least were on patrol. As the above photos illustrate they do build some lovely bikes, but many are copies or thefts of someone elses design, hence the Hot Prices.


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## oldcannondale (Jul 23, 2011)

As a young child I spent some time in the orient, a young Okinawan named Yashiko raised me and played Momma several days a week. No I don't underestimate the hard work and tenacity of any of the far eastern people, I am concerned by communist anti western idealogy and pray that through free trade and the exchange of ideas and a free press that people will realize that most of us desire personal and political freedom and the ability to improve our lot with God's help and strength to withstand tyranny.


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

Good idea. Wrong venue. Try http://www.cheapcarbonframes.com


There's always going to be haters trolling these forums because they have some negative opinion on generic chinese carbon frames. You also have to remember anyone can join/post on these forums including many pissed off cycle shop owners. Frankly we're putting our money into chinese hands instead of theirs so always take comments here with a grain of salt.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

svard75 said:


> Good idea. Wrong venue. Try http://www.cheapcarbonframes.com
> 
> 
> There's always going to be haters trolling these forums because they have some negative opinion on generic chinese carbon frames. You also have to remember anyone can join/post on these forums including many pissed off cycle shop owners. Frankly we're putting our money into chinese hands instead of theirs so always take comments here with a grain of salt.


That's not the issue per se.

The issue to me is devaluing the work someone else has done. People buying these knockoff pinarellos (even if they are not selling them) are no different than those who buy a Folex or a Boach handbag. It's simply wanting something that is outside one's means, and cutting corners and ethics to do so.

As for the unbranded frames, I'm not going to put my safety into something direct from the country that sees safety as the Monday morning water cooler joke. Even if these frames are "safe" (of which I've seen no evidence of CPSC or any other kinds of testing on them) I would not purchase something with questionable ethics behind it.

YMMV, as do many peoples.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

svard75 said:


> Good idea. Wrong venue. Try http://www.cheapcarbonframes.com
> 
> 
> There's always going to be haters trolling these forums because they have some negative opinion on generic chinese carbon frames. You also have to remember anyone can join/post on these forums including many pissed off cycle shop owners. Frankly we're putting our money into chinese hands instead of theirs so always take comments here with a grain of salt.


What has amazed me about the people in the "Cheap Chinese Carbon" threads has been their complete inability to understand what people say to them. Give them a rational explanation of why you don't agree with the purchase of direct, no-name frames and they hear "I'm a bike shop owner! You didn't buy from me! Wah!"

So, again....

I don't care that you didn't buy a bike from me. Really. I'd rather you didn't. My issues are as follows:

1) Usually no testing of the frame.
2) Design/Intellectual property theft.
3) Pretty much no regulation/accountability of any sort in China. No environmental regulations (that are enforced), no worker rights, etc.
4) Completely removes those dollars from the US economy; until they show up again as yet another part of our country is bought by China.
5) No accountability for loss. If your frame breaks in half and kills you while you're riding, your family has no legal recourse at all. If an investigation of the company is even started by the Chinese government, "Hong Lee, Inc" will just disappear and come back in a few months as "Chong Fu, Inc.".

I sell frames made in foreign countries. However, they all have U.S. interests. TIME has a U.S. division, and Cyfac has a U.S. owner/partner. With the economy the way it is, that's even more important than usual. That means those dollars are staying in the U.S.; at least some of them. (I'm using the U.S. here because that is where I am. It would apply equally to Canada, Lithuania, or wherever.) 

Everything is connected. People lose sight of that. When I buy a trash can, I look for one made in the U.S. They're easy to find. So, Bob who works at the plastic-molding factory gets to keep his job as a press operator. He takes his paycheck and buys a bike with it (to keep this on-topic). The bike shop pays their employees and suppliers who then spend their money on food, bikes, etc. The money keeps getting spread around. That's how the U.S. economy functions.

But if Bob buys a China-direct frame with that money, it's gone. That money is removed from circulation in the U.S. permanently. What is really amusing is to realize that many of the people who buy these China-direct frames will ultimately lose their jobs or in some way be financially impacted by such purchases. With all of our money going to China (and it's a very large proportion right now), U.S. companies have been closing, laying people off, etc. How long until YOUR job is outsourced? How long until you are a victim to budget cuts?

But, I'm just an angry shop owner who is only concerned about whether people buy bikes from me or not....


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## pandoro (Jul 19, 2011)

Altri modelli?


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## powking12 (Jun 20, 2011)

Just to further derail this thread. It's interesting how people want to have a free market economy until it truly is a free market. I bet nobody would be complaining if we could suddenly buy "Chinese gas" to burn in our cars at 30% of the current cost. If Bob the builder at the garbage can factory wasn't part of the union and making $45/HR to press a button maybe locally made products would be more accessible price-wise. Also the 'ethics' argument is bordering on ridiculous. How is it any more ethical for a company to buy an open mold frame, rebrand it, and mark it up 100-200%?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

powking12 said:


> Just to further derail this thread. It's interesting how people want to have a free market economy until it's truly is a free market. I bet nobody would be complaining if we could suddenly buy "Chinese gas" to burn in our cars at 30% of the current cost. If Bob the builder at the garbage can factory wasn't part of the union and making $45/HR to press a button maybe locally made products would be more accessible price-wise. Also the 'ethics' argument is bordering on ridiculous. How is it any more ethical for a company to buy an open mold frame, rebrand it, and mark it up 100-200%?


If you don't want to buy an "open mold frame" then that's perfectly acceptable. There's a reason companies like Time, BMC, Look, Cyfac, etc etc are priced as such: you get what you pay for.

Of course, the idea of actually working to pay for your favorite toys is tough for some people to accept (especially the ones who complain about the price of a carbon frame but go ahead and put Red or Super Record 11 on it...)


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## powking12 (Jun 20, 2011)

Continuing my rant. Not only that but most of the products from somewhere else (china, Taiwan, etc.) tend to be better quality than stuff produced locally because local production fills a niche created by protectionist thinking. Generally speaking, imported items (like bikes) are made better or priced far, far lower to attract a particular consumer that doesn't care or isnt satisfied with somethingocally made. And please, nobody is buying a Real Pinarello because they want to support the local economy. Give me a break.


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## Backflush (Jul 7, 2011)

Not to complain or anything, but if you cannot keep to the original topic of the thread, then start your own thread. I would also like to know what the frame cross reference would be.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

powking12 said:


> Just to further derail this thread. It's interesting how people want to have a free market economy until it truly is a free market. I bet nobody would be complaining if we could suddenly buy "Chinese gas" to burn in our cars at 30% of the current cost. If Bob the builder at the garbage can factory wasn't part of the union and making $45/HR to press a button maybe locally made products would be more accessible price-wise. Also the 'ethics' argument is bordering on ridiculous. How is it any more ethical for a company to buy an open mold frame, rebrand it, and mark it up 100-200%?


The people at the plastic factory make about $8-$10/hour to make trash cans. Don't know where you're getting the $45/hr figure. The trash cans, BTW, are also the same price as the Chinese ones.

If the Chinese were producing gas, even at 30% off, I wouldn't buy it. Considering the pet food issue, the paint issue, and the many other unsafe products from China in the past few years, would you really consider using Chinese gas in a car that costs $25,000 or more?

It isn't at all ethical for a company to buy "open-mold" frames, rebrand them, and mark them up 200%. 100%, however, is perfectly ethical. That's how money is made. Buy a cheap frame for $300/each, add your paint/graphics, and sell it for $600 is pretty standard.


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> What has amazed me about the people in the "Cheap Chinese Carbon" threads has been their complete inability to understand what people say to them. Give them a rational explanation of why you don't agree with the purchase of direct, no-name frames and they hear "I'm a bike shop owner! You didn't buy from me! Wah!"
> 
> So, again....
> 
> ...


Point well taken and understood. I am in the IT industry so relocation or outsourcing are my greatest fears, however is it really me making those decisions? I don't want to cloud the discussion with irrelevant stuff. I see it as the greedy company leaders who are making these decisions plus marking up frame costs so significantly, why the heck wouldn't someone go elsewhere to shop. As an example if you were shopping for a car and you found company A selling their car for this much and company B selling it for that much, however company B's car is 25% less and you can see many similarities between the two cars and a reduced cost would you not buy from company B? Isn't this were it all began? Think about the past and how Japan used to copy everything from other countries and look where they are now? How many people out there would rather spend more money on something just because it supports the local economy then save money and buy the same thing from another economy?

Take a closer look at all the stuff in your home. What percentage of that is actually manufactured in the USA? I don't mean assembled I mean from resource to product?

I will have to agree with you about warranty and QA. There are plenty of open mold companies who can pack up shop and re-open under another name but that's why you have a brain to search through forums and other resources and make up your own conclusions.

S


Edit: Actually you know what pisses me off?! I walk into my LBS wanting to help the guy out and support him and when I ask how much something costs, he pulls out his dumb ass MSRP book and shows me the price. For example an M970 XTR crankset in his book is still $799 and that's how much he wants for it!? Excuse me when I find it on the internet selling for $399 who would want to buy from the LBS?!


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> The people at the plastic factory make about $8-$10/hour to make trash cans. Don't know where you're getting the $45/hr figure. The trash cans, BTW, are also the same price as the Chinese ones.
> 
> If the Chinese were producing gas, even at 30% off, I wouldn't buy it. Considering the pet food issue, the paint issue, and the many other unsafe products from China in the past few years, would you really consider using Chinese gas in a car that costs $25,000 or more?
> 
> It isn't at all ethical for a company to buy "open-mold" frames, rebrand them, and mark them up 200%. 100%, however, is perfectly ethical. That's how money is made. Buy a cheap frame for $300/each, add your paint/graphics, and sell it for $600 is pretty standard.


I think he's referring to the union run jobs where a guy walks in (Only in North America) sees a box that looks like it might be too heavy to lift and files a union grievance against the company. Yeah that guy is usually making $35-45 per hour.

S


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## powking12 (Jun 20, 2011)

And my apologies for continuing the thread derail. I'm actually interested in the cross referencing too.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

No paint RFM101









Branded/Painted


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

No Paint "itsall4sports" frame









Painted/Branded


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

I'm not so sure that all the Chinese frames are copies of production frames. I mean the Pinerallo is a given but it's hard for me to see any other similarities. Most of what China does is trial and error anyway for example the FM039 was being sold as an aero frame, however the clearance between the rear wheel tire and seattube was too close for comfort so they corrected it and added 10mm. Some of the smaller builders are now offering carbon frames and I can see them sourcing the frame from a Chinese supplier then putting their decals/paintjob on it but the larger manufacturers likely have patents and other things protecting specific designs. The Pinerello must have missed the patent filing or something. I know someone may argue that China doesn't adhere to these laws but I think they do if the other larger brand factories are in fact within China.

It will be interesting to see what people come up with :thumbsup:

S


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

vladvm said:


> No Paint "itsall4sports" frame
> 
> 
> 
> ...


very similar but not really. Take a close look at the headtube length and maybe chainstay width. Another spot is the seatstays where they meet up with the seattube. The Kuota has more meat there. The geometry could be exactly. When I look at this thread I think geometry exact.

S


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

No Paint FM028









Painted/Branded


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

svard75 said:


> very similar but not really. Take a close look at the headtube length and maybe chainstay width. Another spot is the seatstays where they meet up with the seattube. The Kuota has more meat there. The geometry could be exactly. When I look at this thread I think geometry exact.
> 
> S


different bike size.


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

vladvm said:


> No Paint FM028
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this one's way off. Look at where the seatstays meet the seattube? Plus look at the size of the seatstays. Take a look at the ISP mast. On the livestrong frame it's setback slightly. Also look at the curvature of the inside of the triangle (spec around the headtube).

Re: different size. I've taken that into account. I was referring to the length of the headtube above the top tube. Then take a closer look at the headtubes shape. On the raw frame it's very oval shaped.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

svard75 said:


> this one's way off. Look at where the seatstays meet the seattube? Plus look at the size of the seatstays. Take a look at the ISP mast. On the livestrong frame it's setback slightly. Also look at the curvature of the inside of the triangle (spec around the headtube).
> 
> Re: different size. I've taken that into account. I was referring to the length of the headtube above the top tube. Then take a closer look at the headtubes shape. On the raw frame it's very oval shaped.


maybe fm015. i like the black/blue/red/green better.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

vladvm said:


> No Paint FM028
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now you're just showing your ineptitude.

High end Treks, which Lance's bike was, are hand-made in Wisconsin. Ergo, this is a case of "Real" vs. "Copy", not "unpainted/unbranded" vs. "Branded"....


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

vladvm said:


> No Paint FM028
> 
> Painted/Branded


wth? not the same bike. 

Also lol @ the resident anti-China bike brigade.


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Now you're just showing your ineptitude.
> 
> High end Treks, which Lance's bike was, are hand-made in Wisconsin. Ergo, this is a case of "Real" vs. "Copy", not "unpainted/unbranded" vs. "Branded"....


+1 Agreed!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

vladvm said:


> No paint RFM101
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wrong.

Again. 

Like you always are.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

vladvm said:


> maybe fm015. i like the black/blue/red/green better.


No, not "maybe."

The Madone 6.9 series is produced in Wisconsin, and is not the piece of junk you posted in the photo above it.

Again, you can keep fooling yourself all you want; those chinese pieces of crap are not OEM frames "going out the back door" no matter how much you want them to be. You don't need to lie to other people to get them on your bandwagon just to make yourself feel better about buying garbage.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

For you China haters it will all sort itself out soon.
You people in the US wont be able to afford to buy outside of the good old US of A soon if you $ keeps plummeting and Obama does not sort out your debt.
Hell you may actually be bought by China if the rest of the world calls in that big ass debt of yours.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> Again, you can keep fooling yourself all you want; those chinese pieces of crap are not OEM frames "going out the back door" no matter how much you want them to be. You don't need to lie to other people to get them on your bandwagon just to make yourself feel better about buying garbage.


Yes Rob, anything made by the Chinese are POS. 

Oh yes, my China bike is just as good as my Taiwan bike, USA bike, and Japan bike. 



FTR said:


> For you China haters it will all sort itself out soon.
> You people in the US wont be able to afford to buy outside of the good old US of A soon if you $ keeps plummeting and Obama does not sort out your debt.
> Hell you may actually be bought by China if the rest of the world calls in that big ass debt of yours.


You're Aussie right? How's the AUD doing?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

mrbubbles said:


> Yes Rob, anything made by the Chinese are POS.
> 
> Oh yes, my China bike is just as good as my Taiwan bike, USA bike, and Japan bike.
> 
> ...



$1.10US; $8.60HK; 67 GB pence; .76 Euro and climbing.


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## Blackss06 (Feb 26, 2011)

Thought I would come in here and let you all know how horrible Chinese products are, and how you're going to burn for eternity if you buy one, it will asplode and you will get ninja carbon splinters in your whole body.

It would be nice to have a thread like this with all the models/sellers/prices and originals(or closest) that was JUST the info, not littered with people trolling for posts.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Blackss06 said:


> Thought I would come in here and let you all know how horrible Chinese products are, and how you're going to burn for eternity if you buy one, it will asplode and you will get ninja carbon splinters in your whole body.
> 
> It would be nice to have a thread like this with all the models/sellers/prices and originals(or closest) that was JUST the info, not littered with people trolling for posts.


But what would Rob and Platy do with their time then??


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> No, not "maybe."
> 
> The Madone 6.9 series is produced in Wisconsin, and is not the piece of junk you posted in the photo above it.
> 
> Again, you can keep fooling yourself all you want; those* chinese pieces of crap* are not OEM frames "going out the back door" no matter how much you want them to be. You don't need to lie to other people to get them on your bandwagon just to make yourself feel better about buying garbage.


Unless you have personal experience with one or many I would refrain from calling them "pieces of crap". There are many people who have bought these frames and are enjoying them several years later. 

I think there are general negative opinions circulating about Chinese manufactured frames and they're originating from the haters. I know many guys in clubs are on the fence about Chinese carbon but just won't go with it for fear of club ride exclusion. Why? Because everyone thinks they'll explode and take down the pack?! LMFAO Maybe we should all take a look at the wonderful world of carbon wheels made by some of the top brands if you want to talk about exploding carbon...

I agree they are not copies or replica's they are open mold and although they may look similar to larger manufacturers models they are in fact not copies, except of course for the Chinarello.

I'm done arguing about this because close minded individuals will remain close minded regardless of points argued. 

S


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

svard75 said:


> Unless you have personal experience with one or many I would refrain from calling them "pieces of crap". There are many people who have bought these frames and are enjoying them several years later.
> 
> I think there are general negative opinions circulating about Chinese manufactured frames and they're originating from the haters. I know many guys in clubs are on the fence about Chinese carbon but just won't go with it for fear of *club ride exclusion.* Why? Because everyone thinks they'll explode and take down the pack?! LMFAO Maybe we should all take a look at the wonderful world of carbon wheels made by some of the top brands if you want to talk about exploding carbon...
> 
> ...


You're absolutely correct. I'd laugh someone off the group ride if they showed up on a piece of crap no name frame with carbon clinchers and Super Record 11. All it shows is that the individual has such misguided priorities that they need to spend ridiculous money on components and cheap out on the part of the bike that is the most important.

The bottom line is people want something that costs more money than they can afford. If you can't afford a branded frame with a warranty and after sales support, then don't buy it; buy another material/brand/spec that fits within your budget.

Thinking these frames are anything more than and excuse for being cheap is laughable. 

And yes, I've had this discussion with people on club rides. They were smart enough to see the value in supporting a company as opposed to a bunch of hacks running an unregulated internet business.


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## Blackss06 (Feb 26, 2011)

Nooo clue but I know when I need another frame I'll just buy two Chinese carbons. two because it's only a matter of time before one will have a spontaneous asplosion.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> All it shows is that the individual has such misguided priorities that they need to spend ridiculous money on components and cheap out on the part of the bike that is the most important.


Instead of having the misguided priority that it is all about the bike??
Now that is laughable.
I am glad I dont have to ride with people like you Rob.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> Instead of having the misguided priority that it is all about the bike??
> Now that is laughable.
> I am glad I dont have to ride with people like you Rob.


It IS all about the frame. Components come and go.

I'm glad I don't ride with people who are too cheap to buy a name brand frame. Anyone who's either too entitled to buy a lesser spec'd branded bike or too cheap to spend the money on a decent branded bike is nobody I choose to associate or ride with.


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## ohvrolla (Aug 2, 2009)

Blackss06 said:


> Nooo clue but I know when I need another frame I'll just buy two Chinese carbons. two because it's only a matter of time before one will have a spontaneous asplosion.


Get a Madone and a Chinese carbon. Give you something to fall back on when the chainstay breaks on the Madone.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> It IS all about the frame. Components come and go.
> 
> I'm glad I don't ride with people who are too cheap to buy a name brand frame. Anyone who's either too entitled to buy a lesser spec'd branded bike or too cheap to spend the money on a decent branded bike is nobody I choose to associate or ride with.


My Moots name brand enough for you??
And since when do people hold onto CF frames long enough to have to upgrade their components.
What a crock of doo doo.
My Moots yes, CF anything nope.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> My Moots name brand enough for you??
> And since when do people hold onto CF frames long enough to have to upgrade their components.
> What a crock of doo doo.
> My Moots yes, CF anything nope.


I've got no problem with Moots. I like Moots.

I don't like unbranded chinese carbon garbage. 

It's very simple.


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> You're absolutely correct. I'd laugh someone off the group ride if they showed up on a piece of crap no name frame with carbon clinchers and Super Record 11. All it shows is that the individual has such misguided priorities that they need to spend ridiculous money on components and cheap out on the part of the bike that is the most important.
> 
> The bottom line is people want something that costs more money than they can afford. If you can't afford a branded frame with a warranty and after sales support, then don't buy it; buy another material/brand/spec that fits within your budget.
> 
> ...


So two dimensional. What about someone who has a budget of lets say $3000 but wants the absolute best components out there? On the flip side maybe someone wants the best frame with mediocre components. Who sets the standard for shopping for bikes and what components they want or how they want it configured? Are you stating that the custom frame builders even here in America have it all wrong when they build an aluminum framed bike with Campy Super Record or SRAM red? If I'm spending my money on bikes I prefer a custom bike. A bike that no one else has yet I don't want to spend $13,000 on some guy that will build me a custom bike the way I want it. Frankly I enjoy having options in life when it comes to *my money*.

There are a limited few Chinese businesses out there who pride themselves in their products and have been around long enough for people to recognize their name. They actually have a very good QA process in place for testing each frame for durability and finish. They are also the same few which offer a warranty, albeit, it's not the convenience of walking your bike into a shop and having them take care of everything no but it is a warranty.

I'm not trying to insult or offend anyone here on this forum I am simply supporting my arguments that there's nothing wrong with getting a Cheap Chinese Frame. You ride your bike and I'll ride mine, maybe we'll never ride together but give these frames a chance for petes sake! Keep an open mind.

S


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> I've got no problem with Moots. I like Moots.
> 
> I don't like unbranded chinese carbon garbage.
> 
> It's very simple.


Point is I will have both very soon.
Bought the Chinese frame to race on and because my son also needs a road bike (we are the same size).
From what I have seen and heard most people are very happy with their Chinese frames (actually I dont even know why we call them Chinese frames as we know that most frames are built in China these days so it is a little superfluous) and I could buy a brand new one of these for cheaper than I could buy a 2nd hand alloy frame.
Time will tell.

But I guess I am one of the people who does not fit your demographic. I own a Moots, a Blacksheep and a Santa Cruz so am not one to cheap out. My new frame has my own paint job and will have the graphics for my team. It will basically be one of a kind I guess.


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> If you can't afford a branded frame with a warranty and after sales support, then don't buy it; buy another material/brand/spec that fits within your budget.
> 
> Thinking these frames are anything more than and excuse for being cheap is laughable.
> 
> ...You're absolutely correct. I'd laugh someone off the group ride if they showed up on a piece of crap no name frame...


You make this argument a lot and it doesn't make sense. You don't get to tell people how to spend their money. It's offensive. Why do people have to buy brand X just to be a part of your clique? 

In the group rides I'm a part of, we care more about the effort that you put into riding your bike, rather than what brand of bike your sitting on. Maybe you should try that approach too.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> Point is I will have both very soon.
> Bought the Chinese frame to race on and because my son also needs a road bike (we are the same size).
> From what I have seen and heard most people are very happy with their Chinese frames (actually I dont even know why we call them Chinese frames as we know that most frames are built in China these days so it is a little superfluous) and I could buy a brand new one of these for cheaper than I could buy a 2nd hand alloy frame.
> Time will tell.
> ...


Hey knock yourself out. It's your money, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your decision to buy unbranded, untested, un-warrantied crap from china. Paint it however you want, it doesn't change what it is.

I'll say this: you don't have any delusions that the frame you're buying is an "OEM Pinarello for $500," and that's infinitely better than a good portion of people out there. 

The fact still remains: I'm an opinionated jerk, and if someone shows up on a group ride with an unbranded chinese frame hung with SR11 or Red, I'll laugh them off the ride. Cycling is a case of "you get what you pay for," and like all Americans, we've been taught that we deserve more than we can afford. Hence, these frames are becoming "saviors of the working man who's tired of getting shafted by the big corporations, MAAANNNN!" They're not. They just show you who is cheap and more interested in saying "dude, I ride carbon, not aluminum."


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

beston said:


> You make this argument a lot and it doesn't make sense. You don't get to tell people how to spend their money. It's offensive. Why do people have to buy brand X just to be a part of your clique?
> 
> In the group rides I'm a part of, we care more about the effort that you put into riding your bike, rather than what brand of bike your sitting on. Maybe you should try that approach too.



Because people who buy chinese garbage are just suckers who are tempted by price, not by quality. It's the American way.


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> Because people who buy chinese garbage are just suckers who are tempted by price, not by quality. It's the American way.


That response, in no way, addresses anything I said.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

svard75 said:


> So two dimensional. What about someone who has a budget of lets say $3000 but wants the absolute best components out there? On the flip side maybe someone wants the best frame with mediocre components. Who sets the standard for shopping for bikes and what components they want or how they want it configured? Are you stating that the custom frame builders even here in America have it all wrong when they build an aluminum framed bike with Campy Super Record or SRAM red? If I'm spending my money on bikes I prefer a custom bike. A bike that no one else has yet I don't want to spend $13,000 on some guy that will build me a custom bike the way I want it. Frankly I enjoy having options in life when it comes to *my money*.
> 
> There are a limited few Chinese businesses out there who pride themselves in their products and have been around long enough for people to recognize their name. They actually have a very good QA process in place for testing each frame for durability and finish. They are also the same few which offer a warranty, albeit, it's not the convenience of walking your bike into a shop and having them take care of everything no but it is a warranty.
> 
> ...


Your analogy of a custom aluminum frame are moot: the chinese junk does not allow you to specify everything from tubing to geometry to additions like fender or rack mounts, etc etc.

All you're paying for is a piece of plastic out of a mold from an anonymous group of internet resellers. If you enjoy throwing your money away as such, nobody can stop you, but I sure as hell can say that I'll laugh at you if you show up with a dirt cheap frame with top tier components. No different than putting a diamond ring on a turd.


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## Blackss06 (Feb 26, 2011)

ohvrolla said:


> Get a Madone and a Chinese carbon. Give you something to fall back on when the chainstay breaks on the Madone.


This made me LOL. :thumbsup: Hopefully I don't need a new frame anytime soon as I'm quite happy with my carbon LOOK. I'd never pay the price for a brand new one though.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

beston said:


> That response, in no way, addresses anything I said.


You asked why people have to buy brand X. I said that I would laugh a no-name frame rider off the group, knowing said person was more interested in being cheap than anything else.

Face the facts. If these frames cost the same amount as a branded frame, nobody would buy them. The price is the only factor at play.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Hey knock yourself out. It's your money, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your decision to buy unbranded, untested, un-warrantied crap from china. Paint it however you want, it doesn't change what it is.
> 
> I'll say this: you don't have any delusions that the frame you're buying is an "OEM Pinarello for $500," and that's infinitely better than a good portion of people out there.
> 
> The fact still remains: I'm an opinionated jerk, and if someone shows up on a group ride with an unbranded chinese frame hung with SR11 or Red, I'll laugh them off the ride. Cycling is a case of "you get what you pay for," and like all Americans, we've been taught that we deserve more than we can afford. Hence, these frames are becoming "saviors of the working man who's tired of getting shafted by the big corporations, MAAANNNN!" They're not. They just show you who is cheap and more interested in saying "dude, I ride carbon, not aluminum."


Your incessant whining is probably giving Chinese carbon frames more business. Seriously, I doubt anyone on your ride gives a crap what you think. They're probably the ones laughing at you.

I'm against buying a fake Pinarello. It's intellectual property theft. But hey, if people want to buy a no-name frame and paint it up, more power to them. Chinese manufacturers have an incentive to have a safety standard. If these frames start breaking, their entire cash flow goes in the gutter.

Personally, I love my Time bikes, but if I were to get a bike for racing, I'd go for the FM-028.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Hey knock yourself out. It's your money, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your decision to buy unbranded, untested, un-warrantied crap from china. Paint it however you want, it doesn't change what it is.
> 
> I'll say this: you don't have any delusions that the frame you're buying is an "OEM Pinarello for $500," and that's infinitely better than a good portion of people out there.
> 
> The fact still remains: I'm an opinionated jerk, and if someone shows up on a group ride with an unbranded chinese frame hung with SR11 or Red, I'll laugh them off the ride. Cycling is a case of "you get what you pay for," and like all Americans, we've been taught that we deserve more than we can afford. Hence, these frames are becoming "saviors of the working man who's tired of getting shafted by the big corporations, MAAANNNN!" They're not. They just show you who is cheap and more interested in saying "dude, I ride carbon, not aluminum."


I think you are reading a lot more into why people buy these than there really is.
And even with my custom Blacksheep my warranty stops with a one man band business.
If James dies, closes his business or simply decides not to respond to my request for a warranty then I am so screwed. Even with warranty it would probably cost me too much to get the frame to him to bother getting it fixed.
I would have much more luck with my Moots and Santa Cruz as these are bigger companies.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> You're absolutely correct. I'd laugh someone off the group ride if they showed up on a piece of crap no name frame with carbon clinchers and Super Record 11. All it shows is that the individual has such misguided priorities that they need to spend ridiculous money on components and cheap out on the part of the bike that is the most important.
> 
> The bottom line is people want something that costs more money than they can afford. If you can't afford a branded frame with a warranty and after sales support, then don't buy it; buy another material/brand/spec that fits within your budget.
> 
> ...


Hmmm.... it seems you are obsessed with brand brand brand. To you, a bike must a brand name on the downtube, doesn't matter if the sourcing supplier gives out the same frame to a bunch of different brand companies sticking their logos on it. To you, it makes more sense to buy a frame from a brand name sourced from oems than actually going directly to the oems. For people who are savvy enough, this makes no sense at all.

Remember that xpace open mold labelled as Fondriest and Ciocc from the top of this thread? Yeah. You got pwned there. 

Riding a bike is about fun, it doesn't matter if the bike has the most gouchiest paintjob, or just plain nude carbon, it doesn't matter if carbon bikes were built by starving Africans, as long as it rides nice, more power to the riders.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> If these frames cost the same amount as a branded frame, nobody would buy them.


Actually, you are incorrect. NEO Ultimate frames cost as much as a branded frame. 

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=193561









11.6 lbs.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> the chinese junk does not allow you to specify everything from tubing to geometry to additions like fender or rack mounts, etc etc.


Oh my, incorrect again. Chinese manufacturers will make whatever you specify, jeez, you are wrong a lot. 

This is ramjm_2000's custom titanium cx by XACD.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DiegoMontoya said:


> Your incessant whining is probably giving Chinese carbon frames more business. Seriously, I doubt anyone on your ride gives a crap what you think. They're probably the ones laughing at you.
> 
> I'm against buying a fake Pinarello. It's intellectual property theft. But hey, if people want to buy a no-name frame and paint it up, more power to them. Chinese manufacturers have an incentive to have a safety standard. If these frames start breaking, *their entire cash flow goes in the gutter.*
> 
> Personally, I love my Time bikes, but if I were to get a bike for racing, I'd go for the FM-028.


Not really. There's always another sucker lined up because it's cheap. Remember, that's the only selling point of these: they're cheap.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> I think you are reading a lot more into why people buy these than there really is.
> And even with my custom Blacksheep my warranty stops with a one man band business.
> If James dies, closes his business or simply decides not to respond to my request for a warranty then I am so screwed. Even with warranty it would probably cost me too much to get the frame to him to bother getting it fixed.
> I would have much more luck with my Moots and Santa Cruz as these are bigger companies.


While it's true that if Blacksheep shuttered or he ignores you you're SOL, you purchased that frame (presumably) with some level of customer service in mind. What happens if you break your chinese frame? They're just as likely (or even more likely) to ignore it because hey, they've got a thousand other suckers and they don't need to deal with you.

Sure, you can buy another frame without spending a lot, but the idea that bikes are disposable makes zero sense to me. I guess people just aren't taught to value anything any longer, just buy and dispose of, buy another and dispose of. The mentality of "price is everything" and "it's cheap enough to buy another when it breaks" are two concepts that I don't subscribe to, and should not apply to the bicycle industry. Hell, if I'm trusting someone with my safety, those two concepts don't even come to mind, but I'm apparently one of only a few who actually think that way.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> While it's true that if Blacksheep shuttered or he ignores you you're SOL, you purchased that frame (presumably) with some level of customer service in mind. What happens if you break your chinese frame? They're just as likely (or even more likely) to ignore it because hey, they've got a thousand other suckers and they don't need to deal with you.
> 
> Sure, you can buy another frame without spending a lot, but the idea that bikes are disposable makes zero sense to me. I guess people just aren't taught to value anything any longer, just buy and dispose of, buy another and dispose of. The mentality of "price is everything" and "it's cheap enough to buy another when it breaks" are two concepts that I don't subscribe to, and should not apply to the bicycle industry. Hell, if I'm trusting someone with my safety, those two concepts don't even come to mind, but I'm apparently one of only a few who actually think that way.


Why do you assume that unless one spends a lot of money it's going to break automatically?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> While it's true that if Blacksheep shuttered or he ignores you you're SOL, you purchased that frame (presumably) with some level of customer service in mind. What happens if you break your chinese frame? They're just as likely (or even more likely) to ignore it because hey, they've got a thousand other suckers and they don't need to deal with you.
> 
> Sure, you can buy another frame without spending a lot, but the idea that bikes are disposable makes zero sense to me. I guess people just aren't taught to value anything any longer, just buy and dispose of, buy another and dispose of. The mentality of "price is everything" and "it's cheap enough to buy another when it breaks" are two concepts that I don't subscribe to, and should not apply to the bicycle industry. Hell, if I'm trusting someone with my safety, those two concepts don't even come to mind, but I'm apparently one of only a few who actually think that way.


Mate at $400 to ship a frame from me to them I would throw it away in a heartbeat.
The belief that paying 4 - 5 times as much for a frame with warranty (which in many cases I have seen are weasled out of anyway) seems somewhat counter intuitive to me.

Then again arguing on the internet is also majorly retarded but many of us seem to like doing that too.


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

... Because he's been fooled into thinking that you have to spend $$$ if you want to be taken seriously. 

The reality is that you should focus on your cycling if you want to be taken seriously. I just took the time to read your blog and found that your goal in recent races is to not finish DFL (in Cat 5). You can buy all the high zoot cycling gear you want, but that won't get you respect with other riders. The person that you 'laugh' at for their equipment choices isn't going to give a crap what you think about their no-name bike as you fade off the back of his or her wheel.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> Mate at $400 to ship a frame from me to them I would throw it away in a heartbeat.
> The belief that paying 4 - 5 times as much for a frame with warranty (which in many cases I have seen are weasled out of anyway) seems somewhat counter intuitive to me.
> 
> Then again arguing on the internet is also majorly retarded but many of us seem to like doing that too.


I'm assuming you're quoting $400 to ship a frame back to china. That's the thing I'll never understand: why is it better to have a product that's considered disposable as opposed to something that will last and be backed by a trusted company? 

As for warranties, how often do we hear of smooth warranty experiences? That's the thing about the internet: it puts everyone's story at our fingertips, so if you search for "XXXX Brand Warranty" you'll very likely get mostly complaints. We generally hear about the ones that go bad, and I'd wager they are a small percentage of overall warranty problems. 

It all comes down to a different set of values. Some people look at price alone. Some people look at heritage. Some people look at the company behind the product. Some people look at design. Some look at safety. Some look at many combinations of the above and more. And the bottom line is we all have an opinion and we all have the ability to express that opinion. The people who want to start lying and claim their Dong Foo F032H is a Pinarello that went out the back door are crazy. The people who claim they're "sticking it to the man because they're not paying the huge markup" are crazy. The people who claim "it's as good as every other name brand frame out there" are crazy too.

The people who say "it was cheap and it is what it is" are few and far between, but are the most honest with themselves and anyone who asks. Justifying it any other way is just trying to mask the fact that it's cheap, and price is the major factor in the choice, not the ride, not the design, not the quality, not the after sales support, not the warranty....just price.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

beston said:


> ... Because he's been fooled into thinking that you have to spend $$$ if you want to be taken seriously.
> 
> The reality is that you should focus on your cycling if you want to be taken seriously. I just took the time to read your blog and found that your goal in recent races is to not finish DFL (in Cat 5). You can buy all the high zoot cycling gear you want, but that won't get you respect with other riders. The person that you 'laugh' at for their equipment choices isn't going to give a crap what you think about their no-name bike as you fade off the back of his or her wheel.


The difference is nobody is winning anything on these no name hunks of junk.

Guys racing seriously, for points, money and what have you aren't touching this stuff. There's a reason why. But you can keep deluding yourself if you like. That's your business.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> The people who claim "it's as good as every other name brand frame out there" are crazy too.


Some people who own brand name bikes and these "dong foo cheap china frames" can claim that, are they crazy because not paying x amount of money means they MUST be getting POS in your perspective?


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> The difference is nobody is winning anything on these no name hunks of junk.



Incorrect again (how many times is it now?), US Road National Champ on a Mercury-painted "dong foo".


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## Villela (Apr 30, 2011)

I really enjoy reading these forums, a lot of useful information.

Please don't post stupidity, it just makes you look retard and wastes everybody time reading your bullshit.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Villela said:


> I really enjoy reading these forums, *there's* a lot of useful information.
> 
> Please don't post stupidity, it just makes you look *like a* retard and wastes everyone*'*s time reading your bullshit.


FIFY. Glad you have input, as pointless and as it may be.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> I'm assuming you're quoting $400 to ship a frame back to china. That's the thing I'll never understand: why is it better to have a product that's considered disposable as opposed to something that will last and be backed by a trusted company?


Rob
It would cost me at least this much to send my Blacksheep back to the US.
It is not the frame that is making it not cost effective to pursue warranty it is the shipping cost.
Last time I got a quote to ship to and from the US it would have been cheaper to buy the frame an economy class seat than to freight it.
So luckily I can buy a cheapo frame and throw it away. I can then spend the money I would have spent on shipping to replace the frame. Plus I still have the thousand or so $ left from not paying for a warranty.


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## Villela (Apr 30, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> FIFY. Glad you have input, as pointless and as it may be.


You've got the message that's a beginning, unfortunately for you grammar policeman you have no jurisdiction overseas, if you need more attention call your mother.


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

Wow, I just noticed that I have received a 'negative reputation' (the red square). I didn't know what this meant so I did some digging.

It turns out that robdamanii has flagged my post and his quoted reason for flagging is that I am a "*Chinese apologist*".

No... I just don't think that you passing judgement and 'laughing someone out of a group ride' because of an elitist opinion is right.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> Rob
> It would cost me at least this much to send my Blacksheep back to the US.
> It is not the frame that is making it not cost effective to pursue warranty it is the shipping cost.
> Last time I got a quote to ship to and from the US it would have been cheaper to buy the frame an economy class seat than to freight it.
> So luckily I can buy a cheapo frame and throw it away. I can then spend the money I would have spent on shipping to replace the frame. Plus I still have the thousand or so $ left from not paying for a warranty.


So you're point is that bikes are disposable and should be considered that way? 

I disagree completely with that sentiment (although I also disagree with shipping costs that high, but that's entirely a different thread.) Why buy a Moots or Blacksheep if it's too expensive to even send it in for warranty work in the first place? Why not choose something like a chinese ti manufacturer or a company with a rep in Australia (I recall you're in AU?)

The point of the matter is people choose bikes for various reasons. The ONLY quality that sets these chinese carbon frames apart from anything else out there and makes them appealing is price. That's all it is, and that's what the chinese are banking on. My argument is simply to buy a quality product the first time around instead of buying two or three knockoffs in succession. You obviously did that by buying from Moots, and banking on the fact that you'll not need to have it replaced. Regardless of Moots, Blacksheep, etc etc, the point remains that if something untoward were to happen to that frame, you'd have a recourse to pursue other than "oh well, buy another one."

Scott had some problems a while back in which BB inserts were coming loose from some frames. They were warrantied without a problem. Same issue with a chinese frame? IF you get a warranty frame, how long will it take, will it be the right one (more than one instance of incorrect frames/finishes/etc being shipped) and will it have the same problem? Sure, you can just buy another one. Maybe that has the same problem, who knows? The problem with the chinese operations is that you're simply a statistic to them; money in the bank. Customer service is the last thing they care about, and that is absolutely unacceptable (or at least it should be. People will excuse it for the price.)


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Villela said:


> You've got the message that's a beginning, unfortunately for you grammar policeman you have no jurisdiction overseas, if you need more attention call your mother.


Way to go tough guy. Anything else to add to the discussion?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

beston said:


> Wow, I just noticed that I have received a 'negative reputation' (the red square). I didn't know what this meant so I did some digging.
> 
> It turns out that robdamanii has flagged my post and his quoted reason for flagging is that I am a "*Chinese apologist*".
> 
> No... I just don't think that you passing judgement and 'laughing someone out of a group ride' because of an elitist opinion is right.


If you don't like my "elitist opinion" you're welcome to either:
A)ignore me.
B)get yourself all bothered over it.

You can defend cheap, no-name junk all you want. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it or your silly posturing that they have any appeal except price.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> If you don't like my "elitist opinion" you're welcome to either:
> A)ignore me.
> B)get yourself all bothered over it.
> 
> You can defend cheap, no-name junk all you want. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it or your silly posturing that they have any appeal except price.


Rob, I hate to say this and I know that you will vehemently deny it, but you are a borderline rascist.
I could care less that you are opinionated or elitist, but rascist I dislike.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> Rob, I hate to say this and I know that you will vehemently deny it, but you are a borderline rascist.
> I could care less that you are opinionated or elitist, but rascist I dislike.


Is that so?

I hate what exactly besides the business model that bases everything on the cheapest possible price ignoring all other factors, including service?


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

beston said:


> Wow, I just noticed that I have received a 'negative reputation' (the red square). I didn't know what this meant so I did some digging.
> 
> It turns out that robdamanii has flagged my post and his quoted reason for flagging is that I am a "*Chinese apologist*".
> 
> No... I just don't think that you passing judgement and 'laughing someone out of a group ride' because of an elitist opinion is right.


Here's what he posted on mine, "Chinese crap fail", it seems he has a thing against all thing Chinese.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Is that so?
> 
> I hate what exactly besides the business model that bases everything on the cheapest possible price ignoring all other factors, including service?


I knew you would come out swinging slugger.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> I knew you would come out swinging slugger.


I'm simply asking how you've come to your psychological analysis on my supposed racism, because I'd love to hear it.


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## Villela (Apr 30, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Way to go tough guy. Anything else to add to the discussion?


Sure, here is the level of quality of a US branded frame.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> I'm simply asking how you've come to your psychological analysis on my supposed racism, because I'd love to hear it.


Could be similar to how you came to the conclusion that these cheap unbranded frames are all crap.
I dont need to have any good reason.
But judging by your reaction I would say I have hit a nerve.

Where another country/race/hair colour is "bashed" as being inferior as a whole then that is racist or discriminatory.
If you do not like to be called rascist or discriminatory then dont act it.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Villela said:


> Sure, here is the level of quality of a US branded frame.


Your point being? 

There's no such thing as a trouble free product. Anywhere. US, Taiwanese, French, German, (branded and controlled) Chinese, they all have some percentage of issues. I did not say that there was a trouble free product out there. Reading comprehension, fella. 

The difference is you have recourse with a company that backs its products. Not so with XYZ NoNameFrames Ltd. That's the gist of the discussion.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> Could be similar to how you came to the conclusion that these cheap unbranded frames are all crap.
> I dont need to have any good reason.
> But judging by your reaction I would say I have hit a nerve.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Where did I ever say that branded, QC'd, safety tested frames produced in China are garbage? 

I have a problem with unbranded, non QC'd, non safety tested, no-warranty frames sold directly to consumers. 

You're right. You hit a nerve. I am utterly disgusted by people who only look for the cheapest possible goods on the market, with no regard for any other factors, and then claim that said goods are "the best thing out there."


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Fair enough. Where did I ever say that branded, QC'd, safety tested frames produced in China are garbage?
> 
> I have a problem with unbranded, non QC'd, non safety tested, no-warranty frames sold directly to consumers.
> 
> You're right. You hit a nerve. I am utterly disgusted by people who only look for the cheapest possible goods on the market, with no regard for any other factors, and then claim that said goods are "the best thing out there."


You are again jumping to conclusions with no basis.
I have not read anyone say that what they have is the "best thing out there".
I have read lots of people say that they are "very happy" which is a completely different thing.
I am very happy with my Moots, Blacksheep and Santa Cruz but I have never said that tehy are the best thing out there.
I sometimes think I might like to buy a Baum and sometimes even a Specialized of all things.

Rob, you need to breath deep and settle yourself down.
Not sure why you think it is fun to be an ******* to people you do not even know.


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## Villela (Apr 30, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Your point being?
> 
> There's no such thing as a trouble free product. Anywhere. US, Taiwanese, French, German, (branded and controlled) Chinese, they all have some percentage of issues. I did not say that there was a trouble free product out there. Reading comprehension, fella.
> 
> The difference is you have recourse with a company that backs its products. Not so with XYZ NoNameFrames Ltd. That's the gist of the discussion.


Yeah, except that the guy that got it is still fighting in law against Cannondale to get his money back since october.
Cannondale lawyer said in the first audience that the frame is ok since the guy used it in a competition, that he isn't doing the maintenance right(should be every 200km) and the decision was postponed requiring another audience due a maneuver of the lawyer requiring a survey, like it was needed.

If you read the china frame posts in the forum you'll see people that got another frame just by sending photos showing that they sent a frame with wrong BB.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> You are again jumping to conclusions with no basis.
> I have not read anyone say that what they have is the "best thing out there".
> I have read lots of people say that they are "very happy" which is a completely different thing.
> I am very happy with my Moots, Blacksheep and Santa Cruz but I have never said that tehy are the best thing out there.
> ...


Dude...no....

With all those bikes....a Specialized? But it didn't even win the Tour.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Dude...no....
> 
> With all those bikes....a Specialized? But it didn't even win the Tour.


Well you wouldn't want to see me riding a BMC would you??


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> I have a problem with unbranded, non QC'd, non safety tested, no-warranty frames sold directly to consumers.


But these are QC'd, safety tested. Sometimes you don't know everything. Which is typical for a brand-oogling noob.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FTR said:


> Well you wouldn't want to see me riding a BMC would you??


I'll hazard a guess that you'll have a BMC explosion over there, a la Trek fever over here.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

I think the fm-039 = specialized venge









I can't wait to see a built up fm-039! Could be my next purchase for next season


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> I'll hazard a guess that you'll have a BMC explosion over there, a la Trek fever over here.


They will become more common than Giant (or Colnago) :mad2: .


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## pandoro (Jul 19, 2011)

E' stupenda lo sara' anche per me!!


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Your analogy of a custom aluminum frame are moot: the chinese junk does not allow you to specify everything from tubing to geometry to additions like fender or rack mounts, etc etc.
> 
> All you're paying for is a piece of plastic out of a mold from an anonymous group of internet resellers. If you enjoy throwing your money away as such, nobody can stop you, but I sure as hell can say that I'll laugh at you if you show up with a dirt cheap frame with top tier components. No different than putting a diamond ring on a turd.


So if a diamond ring (let's say a 10 carat) was in a turd and it was offered to you, you're telling me you wouldn't take it? That's bs! Anyway bad analogy from you. 

Like I said previously ill ride what I ride and be happy about it. You ride what you ride and laugh at me all you want the fact is this bothers you guys enough to constantly flame about it so the more we buy chinese the more it bothers you. Do you see where I'm going with this? 

I'm reading between their posts lines and its tellin me to buy more chinese


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## dcurzon (May 26, 2011)

i've never read so much racist BS on this forum. Bad form, it honestly is.

So the americans thrive on their freedoms. is that freedoms, as long as Robdamanii approves??
i'll be buying chinese next. Just arranging to try some Madone's for sizing as the geometry is almost identical, even if the frame isnt. My money wouldnt be propping up the US economy anyway. Incidentally, how long do you think the US economy is going to survive for? From my understanding, the US gubberment doesnt have the commodities to back up the FRN's its printing. Its a slippery slope i tells ya. Buy cheap chinese frame, put the $$'s you save into investing in some form of commodity (gold, silver, copper?) for the (not too distant) future, cos you are going to need it.


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## walamt (Jun 7, 2011)

Its a pitty this thread got hijacked, I think it would have been a useful resource. It was started because I could see with the numerous post made on the subject people were asking the same questions over and over.

It was created specifically to look for a branded copy on the cheap, although I can see many people wanting a faux brand. It was my intention to show what's available in the market place that you might like because you like the way the branded bike looks like.

I know its a standard argument from the detractors and I'm not arguing for any particular side but I do take offense to posts made purely on an arrogant and obtuse mindset.

I can sight many examples of one frame cropping up under different brands, Its annoying because you may pay twice as much for the same frame presented by a different bike brand but it what it is, at the end of the day the commercial reality is "buyer beware".

Just today I read a review of a new bike presented as an Australian design and engineered bike yet its a off the shelf bike out of a Chinese hot house. The reviewer either didn't know, couldn't be bothered to research thoroughly etc etc but reviewed the bike that produced an article that was somewhat misleading. 

I think the line of differentiation between frames is becoming finer and finer. Why bike companies project a particular ethos when they are simply telling white lies or lieing through omission? They all do it. Just go to two of the most famous Italian brands. Goggle Pinarello they even profess to be a bike manufacturer I think they are making this statement based on their heritage and nothing else. So even some of the most respected and well know bike brands have become nothing more than marketers and designers. But this is nothing new its happening everyday across most industries. I know by first hand experience in the Audio industry. It would be very embarrassing to tell the owner of a $18,000 Pinarello the actual cost of their bike and other little tid bits. Most of these owners would be very surprised indeed but its not really for me to be denigrating. In fact many owners have bought these expensive bikes because that's what they are expensive which is the other side of this argument, each to their own.

Where is the moderator anyway.


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