# Lemond and Doping



## Coolhand

Self-serving whiner, as dirty as everyone else in that Era of laughably bad testing and French team run (pre-Festina) doping (french team, "amazing" comebacks, surrounded by other dopers ect.), or clean as a whistle?

This the place for all your Lemond was doping/Lemond's telling the whole truth, the selective truth, or the truth as whispered into his ear by the great Gismo. 

have fun:


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## bigpinkt

This would a great time for all the haters to present all the evidence that Lemond doped.

Any former teammates?
Any support staff who delivered him dope?
Any positive tests?
Who was his doping doctor?
Any confessions? 

While you are at it why is it that LeMond was publicly pointing out the serious issue of doping doctors in the sport since early 1997, prior to Festina and Lance......Why is it that people only say "sour grapes" when he says the L word 4 years later? Hampstein and Bauer have pointed out the same issue without using the L word but they get a pass.


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## Bry03cobra

Coolhand said:


> Self-serving whiner, as dirty as everyone else in that Era of laughably bad testing and French team run (pre-Festina) doping (french team, "amazing" comebacks, surrounded by other dopers ect.), or clean as a whistle?
> 
> This the place for all your Lemond was doping/Lemond's telling the whole truth, the selective truth, or the truth as whispered into his ear by the great Gismo.
> 
> have fun:


Would you walk into a church and question a priest about Jesus Christ?? Questioning wether LeMond is clean or not in "The Doping Forum" is just as foolish. To most here LeMond is the Lord and Saviour, whereas Lance is Satan.


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## bigpinkt

Bry03cobra said:


> Would you walk into a church and question a priest about Jesus Christ?? Questioning wether LeMond is clean or not in "The Doping Forum" is just as foolish. To most here LeMond is the Lord and Saviour, whereas Lance is Satan.


There have been books written about Lance's doping.....where are the LeMond books? It is entertaining to see the same people who ignore the mountains of evidence against many riders, Lance, Floyd, Tyler, somehow try to paint Lemond as a doper with not even a rumor.


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## Bry03cobra

from 1989 SI story:
LeMond was so excited that he began to take a sleeping pill every night just to get some rest. With the yellow jersey came responsibilities that LeMond knew could sap his strength. Other riders look to the wearer of the yellow jersey to control the Tour. He had to stay near the front of the peloton, ready to follow every break and chase down every attack.

Lemond would pop pills to sleep, but wouldnt use a pill that could improve performance? 

And what about that "Iron" shot? Another foreign substance added to improve Gregs performance.


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## bigpinkt

Bry03cobra said:


> from 1989 SI story:
> LeMond was so excited that he began to take a sleeping pill every night just to get some rest. With the yellow jersey came responsibilities that LeMond knew could sap his strength. Other riders look to the wearer of the yellow jersey to control the Tour. He had to stay near the front of the peloton, ready to follow every break and chase down every attack.
> 
> Lemond would pop pills to sleep, but wouldnt use a pill that could improve performance?
> 
> And what about that "Iron" shot? Another foreign substance added to improve Gregs performance.


is that the best you could do? A sleeping pill and an iron shot in front of a reporter? Your posts show a willingness to ignore so much more from other riders. Duplicity


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## ttug

*total BS*



bigpinkt said:


> is that the best you could do? A sleeping pill and an iron shot in front of a reporter? Your posts show a willingness to ignore so much more from other riders. Duplicity


Lemond rode when doping was at its heigth. They did not test in the manner they do now because mostr of the stuff was NOT illegal. Its a darn shame Riis finked himself out, Mr Fudge blood himself. OR how about Tom Simpson 20years earlier), no tests there either...Oh yeah, he just dropped dead on Ventoux after folks KNEW he chocked speed.

Compared to what Lemond spoke about pre Lance equalling his record and THEN POST and his lack of honesty about quitting races, blaming equipment failures, HE CAUSED to stop a race. Yes, he did reveal that about himself, POST FACT, 10+ years after.

I say he is a liar just like they all are. In short, they all dope and they are all liars.


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## Bry03cobra

bigpinkt said:


> is that the best you could do? A sleeping pill and an iron shot in front of a reporter? Your posts show a willingness to ignore so much more from other riders. Duplicity


Im no Lance fanboy, I personally think he did dope. The point to my post was that its foolish to think that LeMond was clean. There has been doping in cycling as far back as the late 1800's. So you think than many many cyclists doped til Lemond came along, he rode clean. Then he left because of the dopers like Big Mig. 

There is ALWAYS 3 sides to every story. More likely Greg used "safer" PED's during his time, then came EPO and he, smartly, didnt want to risk death to win a bike race. 

How is using sleeping pills to rest better any different than Floyd using a TEST patch to Recover??? Both are an outside chemical, at least what Floyd used is produced by the body.


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## den bakker

Bry03cobra said:


> How is using sleeping pills to rest better any different than Floyd using a TEST patch to Recover???.


one is on the positive list the other is not? :idea:


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## bigpinkt

Still nothing, no evidence. Why is it that none of Greg's teammates, support staff, or DS' come forward? Especially if he is such a terrible guy? Why is it they all maintain to this day he was clean? It is certainly possible Greg doped but there is not even a hint of a rumor that he did.

Doping has always been part of the sport but the fact is that prior to EPO it was possible to do well in the Tour clean. Charley Mottet is another rider who succeeded without dope. There was nothing that could provide you the 10-20% improvement that EPO could and as Simpson proved the uppers riders took during the cold spring classics could be deadly in the heat of July. The only reason people go after Greg is because of the L word. Diminishing his accomplishments or ability just succeeds in making someone appear uninformed. 

In 97 when he complained about Italian doctors raising influence in the sport, about a former teammate dying, about Eric Boyer retiring because he did not want to try EPO. He talked about Andy Hampsten and Steve Bauer riding clean and they backed up his statements. Nobody questioned his motives then.
. 
They are not all dopers and they are not all liars.


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## Bry03cobra

den bakker said:


> one is on the positive list the other is not? :idea:


Depends what was in those "sleeping" pills


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## den bakker

Bry03cobra said:


> Depends what was in those "sleeping" pills


so what was in them that was on the banned list?


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## Bry03cobra

I started a similar topic about a year ago...it yielded the same responses. I never said LeMond doped, but how can anyone here be sure he didnt? Sure there is MUCH more smoke with Lance, but if Lance received any injections he would be hung for it.

I was hoping lance was going to skip the TDF and go for wins at the Giro and Veulta. Its looking like that wont happened so Im now puling for lance to win an 8th tour, only because I cant wait to see the posts here...."Lance must have found something they cant detect" or something like that. I think he will win (of finish 2nd after AC) clean because its a cleaner peloton. Lance was the strongest doper, he will be the strongest clean rider too. I really cant get over how much you guys here obsess about Lance.


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## crit_specialist

*the iron injections*

I was told by a teammate of Lemond that for the 1986 tour he was totally clean. No drugs. Hinoult was not on drugs either but he would use amphetamines in January to lose weight and get in shape for the season.

I also was told that in the late 80s there was some drug that would elevate your testosterone levels. In 87 and 88 the dirty teams were using it--PDM and Carerra. By '89 more teams were using it. 

I have speculated that Lemond might have used that stuff in 89. Look at his arms in the sprint finish photos of that year's world championships. And I have also speculated that it was that drug and not just iron that helped him perform so well in the final time trial of the Giro of that same year. 

I think this stuff is peanuts compared to the use of EPO that started in the early 90s and totally changed the sport. From what I have heard Lemond was never apart of that.


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## stig

I have always wondered about that iron shot.

IIRC, Otto administered the iron shot during Greg's tepid performance at the Giro. He was quickly transformed, gaining a significant result in the next TT.

Perhaps Lemond was told it was an iron shot and accepted it as such. There are plenty of tales of "vitamins" being administered by soigneurs that were somewhat more powerful than the usual Flinstone's chewables.

If my suspicions are wrong I sure would like to score some of that iron. I will be careful to avoid any large magnets!


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## California L33

In the absence of evidence we'll have to go with innuendo!


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## F1nut

LeMond in his day had about a 390 watts FTP at 67.2kg or 5.803 watts per Kilo for 1-hour sustained power. 

The typical top 10 Tour de France rider back then had about 5.6-5.8 for FTP power per kilogram. With this, a 148-pound LeMond could do about 48 minutes on the Alp D' Huez climb in 1986. Interestingly enough, and shockingly so; 1989 saw Laurent Fignon climb the Alp D'Huez in 41:50. Thats quick for a human. I dont have a clue about how much Laurent weighed in but for sure that was impressive.

A few years later in Nineteen-ninety one, Indurain and all his 80 Kilos climbed Alp'D'Huez in 39' 45" . Imagining his average power for that was a collosal    482 watts that was 6.02 watts per kilo for big-foot in 1991. Of course, his FTP would have been 460 range so more like 5.8. That would take a VO2 max of 94. Just to put things in perspective, Indurain got it down to 39' 28" in 1995, exactly 12 months after LeMond decided it was time to hang it up aged 34. 

In 1997 Mr. Pantani climbed the mountain in 37:35. That was 401 watts for the 130 pound 5 foot 5 inch Pirate'. So he had 6.8 watts per Kilo for that ride and his FTP would have been 6.666 or so. 

In 2006, Roid Landis did 38:34 in his little group chasing after Dr. Fuentes gynocologist cleint Schleck.

One thing one must consider about these watts/kilo numbers for the mountains is that the Alp D' Huez climb for example is at 6,102 ft / 10,924 ft). Also, the 21 hairpins kick up well over 10% in some places. My wattage numbers assume a 7.9% strait-away with no wind and no drunks/_Halloween in July_/ fist-fighting with spectators and of course a comfortable 68 degrees. If I do remember, Pantani decked someone dressed up like a _Navajo _warrior on his way to that 37:35 EpoRecord. I plugged in 7,000 feet for the elevation. Someone at that elevation IS going to lose power. In fairness, the power values were probably their real FTP's. 

_Its Rumored_ that Rasmussen had 7.5 or so in 2007. Perhaps wierd things go on during the Tour like on Holloween. Doesnt really surprise me that he could have. Certainly Rasmussen put 1:52 into Evans on the Plateau-de-Beille after 190 kms of racing on stage 14 of 2007 Tour de France. I think not only was Evans getting screwed there, but I think he was waaay over the 5.7 watts per kilo he exhibited this year to do a 46 minutes flat that he did *last year in 2007*. I'm saying, *Pharmstrong; who had 6.7 watts per kilo in 2004 did 45:30 with Basso * in *2004* on the Plateau de Beille. *In 2007*, Contadoper and Rasmussen did *44:08 there*. I will figure out the values dudes, but I have to get to bed soon. :mad2: 


Nowdays, like NOW, at this years Vuelta, Alberto Contadoper (this is the doping forum) climbed the Angiliro about 90 seconds slower than what Heras did in 2001, he had about 6.0 watts per Kilo for that effort. One thing: Ivan Basso had a recent ride to exhaustion that gave him an MAP of around 530 watts. I cant explain his potential for 6.9 watts per kilo at FTP from that test. _Maby they are trying to spook people deliberately._


Souces:

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm 

Alp D' Huez Tourist Office

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plateau-de-Beille 

1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy 
2* 37' 36" 6666666666666666666
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy 
4 38' 01" 66666666666666666666 
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy 
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany 
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States 
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany 
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany 
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France 
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain 
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany 
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal 
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain 
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland 
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark 
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain 
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy 
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain 
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany 
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg 
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan 
23 41' 18" 6666666666666666666666666666666
24 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France 
25 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1986 Colombia 
26 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain 
27 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands 
28 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy 
29 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States :thumbsup: 
30 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France

-Hey the Alp D' Huez has over 21 ski runs and one is 16 kms long! I'm gonna bomb that for sure someday!


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## Bry03cobra

crit_specialist said:


> I was told by a teammate of Lemond that for the 1986 tour he was totally clean. No drugs. Hinoult was not on drugs either but he would use amphetamines in January to lose weight and get in shape for the season.
> 
> I also was told that in the late 80s there was some drug that would elevate your testosterone levels. In 87 and 88 the dirty teams were using it--PDM and Carerra. By '89 more teams were using it.
> 
> I have speculated that Lemond might have used that stuff in 89. Look at his arms in the sprint finish photos of that year's world championships. And I have also speculated that it was that drug and not just iron that helped him perform so well in the final time trial of the Giro of that same year.
> 
> I think this stuff is peanuts compared to the use of EPO that started in the early 90s and totally changed the sport. From what I have heard Lemond was never apart of that.


Thanks for the un-biased post. This is what I speculated. I can't GL pumping blood back into his body but, to think that GL wouldn't try a pill or shot that was safe to use and not detectible is just as foolish as thinking LA was totaly clean.


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## mohair_chair

F1nut said:


> With this, a 148-pound LeMond could do about 48 minutes on the Alp D' Huez climb in 1986. Interestingly enough, and shockingly so; 1989 saw Laurent Fignon climb the Alp D'Huez in 41:50. Thats quick for a human. I dont have a clue about how much Laurent weighed in but for sure that was impressive.


Lemond could certainly do better than 48 minutes in 1986. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise (he can't beat Coppi???). Lemond and Hinault finished in 48 minutes only because the third place rider (Urs Zimmermann) in that stage was 5 minutes behind. Yes, FIVE minutes. You think Lemond would have gone faster if Zimmernann had been only 30 seconds behind?


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## Bry03cobra

Those numbers are BS. Race conditions have a lot to do with those times. "Satan" put up one of those times in a TT. The riders are racing others not the record book. Also how much effort was used during the entire stage, not just ADH, is a big factor.


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## bigpinkt

Bry03cobra said:


> Sure there is MUCH more smoke with Lance, but if Lance received any injections he would be hung for it.
> .


You forget that in addition to Actovigen Jeff Spencer (USPS chiropractor) was caught dumping dozens of syringes. 

From the Vaughters/Andreau chat transcript

Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA (Credit Agricole) and saw that not all the teams got 25 injections every day
Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO
Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of $hit when he'd say everyone was doing it.

The idea that any rider would take a shot of a illegal, unapproved, PED in front of a reporter is absurd.


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## Bry03cobra

bigpinkt said:


> You forget that in addition to Actovigen Jeff Spencer (USPS chiropractor) was caught dumping dozens of syringes.
> 
> From the Vaughters/Andreau chat transcript
> 
> Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA (Credit Agricole) and saw that not all the teams got 25 injections every day
> Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO
> Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of $hit when he'd say everyone was doing it.
> 
> The idea that any rider would take a shot of a illegal, unapproved, PED in front of a reporter is absurd.


You chose who to believe. Why is JV such a credible source? Sure he is doing the right thing with garmin, but he never lied? Didn't he use EPO? If Vaughters went to CSC or T-Mobile he may have thought LA was right. 

About the "shot", why is it absurd? At the time LeMond was as beloved as LA was during his runs, probably more. Didn't he live in france? Spoke the native tounge, and the name sounds French(not sure of his family tree) If GL said it was Iron, the sheep believed it was Iron. Just like those today who think LA is spotless.


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## Slim Again Soon

*LeMond = Champion = Hero*

I believe Greg LeMond raced clean.


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## Bry03cobra

Slim Again said:


> Greg LeMond =Hero.


Your kidding right? Hero??? We have a different definition of hero. Hero is a fireman running into a burning building to risk his life for another. Someone who risks themself to help another. Even with Lance's cancer support he is no hero, if his intentions weren't self centered LA could have been considered a hero. Alhough LA has directly helped some cancer surivours, they could/would look at him as a hero. What has Greg done for anyone other then himself?


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## fuzz-tone

If you look at the peleton next to LA and say "look at all those dopers, no way was he clean" you can do the same to LeMond. Part of the reason nobody comes forward about LeMond has to be because he is old news. Such a small percentage of people in the world would care that it's not worth it.

That being said, even if someone _could_ come forward and spill the beans on him; if the dopers code of silence is strong now, then it was stronger in the 80s and 90s. The people who would be willing to rat him out would have been part of that era and take respect for reputation and legacy more seriously than the publicity seeking ambulance chasers do nowadays.

I always thought his late-career medical issues were the result of doping. It seemed too much like "poetic justice" for an endurance athlete to come down with his disease... mis-diagnosed or not.


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## ttug

*really*



bigpinkt said:


> Still nothing, no evidence. Why is it that none of Greg's teammates, support staff, or DS' come forward? Especially if he is such a terrible guy? Why is it they all maintain to this day he was clean? It is certainly possible Greg doped but there is not even a hint of a rumor that he did.
> 
> Doping has always been part of the sport but the fact is that prior to EPO it was possible to do well in the Tour clean. Charley Mottet is another rider who succeeded without dope. There was nothing that could provide you the 10-20% improvement that EPO could and as Simpson proved the uppers riders took during the cold spring classics could be deadly in the heat of July. The only reason people go after Greg is because of the L word. Diminishing his accomplishments or ability just succeeds in making someone appear uninformed.
> 
> In 97 when he complained about Italian doctors raising influence in the sport, about a former teammate dying, about Eric Boyer retiring because he did not want to try EPO. He talked about Andy Hampsten and Steve Bauer riding clean and they backed up his statements. Nobody questioned his motives then.
> .
> They are not all dopers and they are not all liars.


Really?

So the avearge speed of the peleton increases every year, courses get harder, speed records get broken the doping continues and they are not all liars?

Tell you what, while they might not all dope, how rose colored are those glasses if you think they are all clean and if you do know they are not, do you hear any overall outrage? Any press conferences exposing the whole fraud...UH NO.

Speed will kill you cold or hot, Simpson took the spped with booze, in the heat and dropped dead on Ventoux. Please tell me everyone was stunned at his speed use.....RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHt


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## ultimobici

fuzz-tone said:


> If you look at the peleton next to LA and say "look at all those dopers, no way was he clean" you can do the same to LeMond. Part of the reason nobody comes forward about LeMond has to be because he is old news. Such a small percentage of people in the world would care that it's not worth it.
> 
> That being said, even if someone _could_ come forward and spill the beans on him; if the dopers code of silence is strong now, then it was stronger in the 80s and 90s. The people who would be willing to rat him out would have been part of that era and take respect for reputation and legacy more seriously than the publicity seeking ambulance chasers do nowadays.
> 
> I always thought his late-career medical issues were the result of doping. It seemed too much like "poetic justice" for an endurance athlete to come down with his disease... mis-diagnosed or not.


The mis-diagnosis you speak of was more a case of cronic fatigue due to training far to hard trying to match the emerging EPO generation.
This was the time when Fignon was also on the wane. He made the comment that there were riders climbing with him who had no right to be there. Basically average riders suddenly discovering the ability to climb like a GT contender. Prior to EPO the improvements via dope were small, afterwards it was a whole new ball game.


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## MG537

Bry03cobra said:


> ... Lance was the strongest doper, he will be the strongest clean rider too...


Not necessarily true.
EPO and PED's in general don't affect any two people alike.
You're operating under the assumption that if rider A injects x mg of EPO into his body and rider B injects the same amount, then their improvement will be y number of percentage points. From what I've read, this simply isn't true.


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## F1nut

Bry03cobra said:


> Those numbers are BS. Race conditions have a lot to do with those times. "Satan" put up one of those times in a TT. The riders are racing others not the record book. Also how much effort was used during the entire stage, not just ADH, is a big factor.



I simply showed wattage numbers from over the years. In what way are they "BS?" Perhaps they raced hard sometimes beforehand and had attacks during so *their real FTP numbers were actually higher?  * Is that what your trying to suggest? *Do you actually believe wind has an influence on a tree-lined, crowd lined climb at 10-12 mph?*  

:mad2: Pharm-strong's time in 2004: (37m 36s) for the Time Trial up the 13.8k alone.*15.5K total.*

:mad2: Pharm-strong's Time in 2001 after *210 kms *mountain stage: 38:01

:mad2: Pharm-strong's time in 2003: 41:18 *after 219kms*. 




:thumbsup: In 1989 LeMond did 42:16, losing 26 seconds on Fingon after a long mountain stage. 1989 Alp D'Huez

:thumbsup: LeMond clocked some times in the 44-45 range too. NO sources for that but F- I dont need them.

:thumbsup: In 1986 LeMond and Hinault climbed the Alp in 48 minutes flat.
1986 climb

So, From LeMond:

42:16, 
44 something 
48:01


So, from Pharmstrong:

37:36, 
38:01
41:18 

I have LeMond's VO2 max listed at 92.5

I have Armstrong's VO2 max listed at 83.5 In September 1999 (highest ever test). I have Ed Coyle himself listing Lance's power output with 5.1 liters of oxygen per minute at 403 watts. So how does lance hold more than 490 watts for 45 minutes with a lactate threshold of 400  

I also have Chris Carmichael stating Lance's VO2 max was 81 in June of 1999 on quote, "the tuesday before the Tour."

Kenyans Launch Assault on Alp D'Huez 

I still must do the Plateu Belle climb. Ohh I cant wait to go ghost hunting. Hey what channel is that show on anyways?


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## F1nut

Bry03cobra said:


> Alhough LA has directly helped some cancer surivours, they could/would look at him as a hero. What has Greg done for anyone other then himself?


Lance lies to cancer patients and tells them they can win on sheer willpower. :mad2:

Four of Lance's U-23 and Junior teammates sued USA Cycling for doping them dating before age 18. Three riders from that team *not including Lance* are or were very, VERY sick.

The lawsuit:

Greg Strock got sick too (auto immune)
Erich Kaiter got sick too (chrons colitis)
David Francis, not yet sick
Gerrik Latta, not yet sick
Ernie Lechuga, testicular Cancer

*These Lawsuits were all funded by Greg LeMond*. Strock was threatened repeatitively and did not have the money to sue USAC, LeMond paid for it. USA Cycling still lists George Phincapie's 1990 USA 17-18 junior Cycling team results on their website. 


Do you actually believe Lance would have given a F- about cancer without ever having gotten it himself? 

The 1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta were popularly dubbed the "Growth Hormone Games," how sweet a nickname.


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## Bry03cobra

F1nut said:


> Lance lies to cancer patients and tells them they can win on sheer willpower. :mad2:
> 
> Four of Lance's U-23 and Junior teammates sued USA Cycling for doping them dating before age 18. 5 riders from that team *not including Lance* are or were very, VERY sick.
> 
> Greg Strock got sick too (auto immune)
> Erich Kaiter got sick too (chrons colitis)
> David Francis, not yet sick
> Gerrik Latta, not yet sick
> Ernie Lechuga, testicular Cancer
> 
> *These Lawsuits were all funded by Greg LeMond*. Strock was threatened repeatitively and did not have the money to sue USAC, LeMond paid for it. USA Cycling still lists George Phincapie's 1990 USA 17-18 junior Cycling team results on their website.
> 
> 
> Do you actually believe Lance would have given a F- about cancer without ever having gotten it himself?


And this proves what? That Greg is trying to get under Lance's skin with this. 
Livestrong.org
So as a Lance hater, you will bash the good he has done with Livestrong? Go to Livestrong.org and show me where he says beat cancer with willpower?? Keep twisting his words. I love how you Lance hating fanatics twist the truth. How many millions have you raised for anything??


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## r_mutt

F1nut said:


> I simply showed wattage numbers from over the years. In what way are they "BS?" Perhaps they raced hard sometimes beforehand and had attacks during so *their real FTP numbers were actually higher?  * Is that what your trying to suggest? *Do you actually believe wind has an influence on a tree-lined, crowd lined climb at 10-12 mph?*
> 
> :mad2: Pharm-strong's time in 2004: (37m 36s) for the Time Trial up the 13.8k alone.*15.5K total.*
> 
> :mad2: Pharm-strong's Time in 2001 after *210 kms *mountain stage: 38:01
> 
> :mad2: Pharm-strong's time in 2003: 41:18 *after 219kms*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbsup: In 1989 LeMond did 42:16, losing 26 seconds on Fingon after a long mountain stage. 1989 Alp D'Huez
> 
> :thumbsup: LeMond clocked some times in the 44-45 range too. NO sources for that but F- I dont need them.
> 
> :thumbsup: In 1986 LeMond and Hinault climbed the Alp in 48 minutes flat.
> 1986 climb
> 
> So, From LeMond:
> 
> 42:16,
> 44 something
> 48:01
> 
> 
> So, from Pharmstrong:
> 
> 37:36,
> 38:01
> 41:18
> 
> I have LeMond's VO2 max listed at 92.5
> 
> I have Armstrong's VO2 max listed at 83.5 In September 1999 (highest ever test). I have Ed Coyle himself listing Lance's power output with 5.1 liters of oxygen per minute at 403 watts. So how does lance hold more than 490 watts for 45 minutes with a lactate threshold of 400
> 
> I also have Chris Carmichael stating Lance's VO2 max was 81 in June of 1999 on quote, "the tuesday before the Tour."
> 
> Kenyans Launch Assault on Alp D'Huez
> 
> I still must do the Plateu Belle climb. Ohh I cant wait to go ghost hunting. Hey what channel is that show on anyways?




great post!!! 



:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## F1nut

It seems that many people fail to notice the *$120,000,000 *Lance has donated to himself over the years from Nike Commercials, Discovery TV shows, Trek advertisements, Magazine and TV interviews, and _just showing up to cancer fundraisers_.










US Congress has given 18,770,000,000 to cancer research since 2005. Lance has raised about 100,000,000 since 2005.

100,000,000/18,770,000,000= 0.0053 or* 0.53%*

Despite all this funding, I still havnt witnessed the cure for cancer.

And I havnt seen the cure for HIV/AIDS either despite it receiving *5 times more funding.*
(Cancer.gov)



If I got something wrong you can call me on it.


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## bigpinkt

This thread started out in the ProCycling about Armstrong vs Lemond, who was better. Since it is impossible to discuss Armstrong's post 1995 achievements without referencing his doping this thread was started, but of course the OP twisted to deflect from reality. 

The fact is that* no way* on a level playing field Lance beats Greg. Prior to starting to work with Ferrari in 1995 Lance dropped out of two Tours and was consistently shelled in the TT's and climbs. Contrast this to Greg. His first Tour, he has just turned 23 days earlier. He gets 3rd, wins the white jersey, and a stage. The next year, at 24, he is clearly the strongest rider in the race and gets second....and is third in the Giro. At 25 he wins it.


----------



## ttug

*what?????????*



F1nut said:


> It seems that many people fail to notice the *$120,000,000 *Lance has donated to himself over the years from Nike Commercials, Discovery TV shows, Trek advertisements, Magazine and TV interviews, and _just showing up to cancer fundraisers_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Congress has given 18,770,000,000 to cancer research since 2005. Lance has raised about 100,000,000 since 2005.
> 
> 100,000,000/18,770,000,000= 0.0053 or* 0.53%*
> 
> Despite all this funding, I still havnt witnessed the cure for cancer.
> 
> And I havnt seen the cure for HIV/AIDS either despite it receiving *5 times more funding.*
> (Cancer.gov)
> 
> 
> 
> If I got something wrong you can call me on it.


Congress controls the purse strings for the US, and you compare that to a single guy who gets according to your numbers 1/2 of a percent of what the entire US government budgets. At that rate, 200 people can match our entire governments expenditure. Thats a tad whacked......

As to AIDs , WTF has that to do with cancer?

I think you would be very pressed to see anyone stand up and tell you glowinmg things about any athlete without the fact that, they are just athletes and can be jerks. Its a fact.


----------



## F1nut

With Lance's listed power at 5.1 liters/min (90% of his VO2 max), he could hold about 380 watts for 60 minutes. In court tribunal, Lance has stated he weighs 74kg for the Tour, so thats *5.14 watts per Kilo *presumably clean for his highest ever VO2 max test. With Lance's 164 pounds and an FTP of 380, he would stuggle to crack 51 minutes on Alp D'Huez cleanly. Even if he got down to 158 pounds and up to 390 watts, thats still only *50:30*.


By Comparison, _*Robbie McEwen did 47:22 *_on Alp D'Huez in 2004. Lance totally clean, would never beat Robbie on a mountain pass. *I'm not saying Robbie isnt jacked, I'm just playing with numbers Cobra.*

Robbie, with his 150 pounds, had an FTP similar as LeMond's for that and a similar VO2 max no doubt.


----------



## F1nut

ttug said:


> As to AIDs , WTF has that to do with cancer?
> 
> I think you would be very pressed to see anyone stand up and tell you glowinmg things about any athlete without the fact that, they are just athletes and can be jerks. Its a fact.


So LET, me get this strait:

$19,800,000,000 for HIV/AIDS in 2005.

4.5 billion for cancer....

23,000,000 people get cancer in America per year.

448,871 people in America, according to census statistics; live with AIDS/HIV.

So thats equal? Nike Pharmstrong Doesnt know this?

Yes, Lance is a "jerk."

And a tad, "wacked."


----------



## F1nut

Bry03cobra said:


> And this proves what? That Greg is trying to get under Lance's skin with this.


What does USA Cycling Federation doping their 17-year old athletes resulting in cancer and life-lasting disease have to do with "getting under Lance's skin?" 

What does someone who _*does not have the money to sue the organization that gave them their testicular cancer or chrons colitis *_have to do with Nike Pharmstrong who has made $120,000,000+ off of his cancer. ALL of it given to him by Michele Ferrari who no doubt jerks off to cheaters and liars and other criminals that share his values of empty denials and atheistic, self serving, shamelessness.


Your yet another NIKE tool Cobra. Buy those LiveWrong $299.99 ugly Yellow sneakers, and that $999.99 LiveWrong HP Laptop that gives $50.00 to cancer.

12-21 year olds are controlled by Nike Tools and Public Relations themes. Sally Jenkins and Barnes and Noble corruption aimed at Cobra to jerk off too.


----------



## Bry03cobra

F1nut said:


> What does USA Cycling Federation doping their 17-year old athletes resulting in cancer and life-lasting disease have to do with "getting under Lance's skin?"
> 
> What does someone who _*does not have the money to sue the organization that gave them their testicular cancer or chrons colitis *_have to do with Nike Pharmstrong who has made $120,000,000+ off of his cancer. ALL of it given to him by Michele Ferrari who no doubt jerks off to cheaters and liars and other criminals that share his values of empty denials and atheistic, self serving, shamelessness.
> 
> 
> Your yet another NIKE tool Cobra. Buy those LiveWrong $299.99 ugly Yellow sneakers, and that $999.99 LiveWrong HP Laptop that gives $50.00 to cancer.
> 
> 12-21 year olds are controlled by Nike Tools and Public Relations themes. Sally Jenkins and Barnes and Noble corruption aimed at Cobra to jerk off too.


WOW you got a thing about masterbating, do you think of Greg when you do it?? 

Ferrari gave LA $120million? Didn't know that. Another untrue statment. 

Sorry I'm a MAC user, wouldn't use a HP. Wow his shoes are $300? I wouldn't know. Don't care for nike cycling gear, do use Nike running shoes though. I prefer PearlIzumi gear.

You should Get help, you shouldn't get so upset about a guy with one nut who rides his bike. If that don't work, place an ad on craigs list, maybe you can get a Lemond look-alike to show ya who's boss!!! Sounds like it may be a fantasy of yours!!!


----------



## F1nut

Bry03cobra said:


> I prefer PearlIzumi gear.
> 
> You should Get help, you shouldn't get so upset about a guy with one nut who rides his bike.


Enjoy those pearls :thumbsup:

And the peanut size :thumbsup:

Pay Your Taxes: It will help the Pseudo Policies :thumbsup:


----------



## function

Hah =) that's an interesting note about McEwan. I think what people don't realise is that it's extremely difficult, even with competition, to go over your FTP by a ridiculous amount for extended periods. Thanks for all the posts.


----------



## PhatTalc

F1nut said:


> With Lance's listed power at 5.1 liters/min (90% of his VO2 max), he could hold about 380 watts for 60 minutes. In court tribunal, Lance has stated he weighs 74kg for the Tour, so thats *5.14 watts per Kilo *presumably clean for his highest ever VO2 max test. With Lance's 164 pounds and an FTP of 380, he would stuggle to crack 51 minutes on Alp D'Huez cleanly. Even if he got down to 158 pounds and up to 390 watts, thats still only *50:30*.
> 
> 
> By Comparison, _*Robbie McEwen did 47:22 *_on Alp D'Huez in 2004. Lance totally clean, would never beat Robbie on a mountain pass. *I'm not saying Robbie isnt jacked, I'm just playing with numbers Cobra.*
> 
> Robbie, with his 150 pounds, had an FTP similar as LeMond's for that and a similar VO2 max no doubt.


I think there is a mistake here: If you use the kreuzotter calculator, Lance would be up Alpe d'huez in around 42 minutes (380W, 158 lbs, bike: 15lbs, 7.9%, 8.57 miles, average elevation around 4500ft).

Also a problem with all this Alpe d'Huez talk is that the times up it are estimated from TV footage- and the start is pretty ill-defined. For example, Coppi's time (mentioned earlier) was the first time the summit was included, and in that year the climb finished a long way below the modern finish line.

A caution regarding VO2 max values: Lemond was never tested at 92.5 ml/min/kg or what ever- he was measured to have a VO2 somewhere around 88, which he then modified because his July weight was lower than his tested (earlier in the season?) weight. He is of course assuming that his power was maintained at his lower weight, which is probably a fair assumption. 

Finally, Rasmussen never had an FTP of 7.5 W/kg. The numbers that give rise to this large figure come from the fact that the power he developed on some TdF climb would have required around 450W from a 72kg rider+8kg bike (450W for a 130lb rider would give the stupidly high ftp). The (72+8)kg thing comes from a popular French cycling magazine where they estimate the power of riders on the demanding/important stages of the big tours.


----------



## ttug

*no*



F1nut said:


> So LET, me get this strait:
> 
> $19,800,000,000 for HIV/AIDS in 2005.
> 
> 4.5 billion for cancer....
> 
> 23,000,000 people get cancer in America per year.
> 
> 448,871 people in America, according to census statistics; live with AIDS/HIV.
> 
> So thats equal? Nike Pharmstrong Doesnt know this?
> 
> Yes, Lance is a "jerk."
> 
> And a tad, "wacked."


The population iod the US is just over 260 million.

WTF is the 448,871 coming from?

I worked a census project before, there are over 448,000 people in NY alone.

I conclude, your numbers are whacked, you have an axe to grind and you are on the ignore list.

tata


----------



## r_mutt

ttug said:


> The population iod the US is just over 260 million.
> 
> WTF is the 448,871 coming from?
> 
> I worked a census project before, there are over 448,000 people in NY alone.
> 
> I conclude, your numbers are whacked, you have an axe to grind and you are on the ignore list.
> 
> tata



the number 448,871 refers to the number of people living with aids, not the population of the usa. read it again, and note the comma. to continue off topic, the correct number seems to be 1 million people in the US living with HIV.

info from:http://www.until.org/statistics.shtml?gclid=CLj20LKR65cCFQYcHgodyk-wCw


----------



## Bry03cobra

F1NUT made a mistake??? he only sees what Greg wants him to, He will fudge the numbers to make his point....maybe he is in politics. F1nut....are you Larry Craig???? You were in Minnasota looking for men in the restroom....were you hoping that greg Lemond might happened to strool in there????


----------



## pianopiano

Bry03cobra said:


> F1NUT made a mistake??? he only sees what Greg wants him to, He will fudge the numbers to make his point....maybe he is in politics. F1nut....are you Larry Craig???? You were in Minnasota looking for men in the restroom....were you hoping that greg Lemond might happened to strool in there????



Q: What does implying that someone is gay and/or cruises public washrooms looking for anonymous sex have to do with this thread? 

A: Absolutely nothing at all. It's just a childish and immature personal attack that I would hope would be highly frowned upon by the moderators (and mature participants) of this forum. 

If you don't have something constructive or informative to say to back up your arguments, perhaps you should think twice about posting here.


----------



## hooj

It's more likely that GL doped than that he didn't dope. 80's drugs just were nothing compared to EPO. Test will help with recovery and corticoids kill the pain, but when you add EPO to this equation, you create a superhuman. EPO is most likely the reason for GL retiring from cycling. Whether he didn't want to risk his health or just didn't have access to EPO we don't know but it's very clear that he didn't take EPO.

However claiming that LA was clean is a very weird claim. Just the fact that other extremely talented and extremely dedicated professional athletes are proven EPO users/blood dopers is very strong evidence against LA being clean. High crit gives such a huge boost to performance at FTP power that clean rider just doesn't stand a chance against that sort of competition in long climbs.

And you don't need to post comments about Lance training in the rain and snow in the mountains early in the spring and other riders not. Just because Lance had a movie crew documenting his training isn't a proof that others weren't busting their asses training just as hard or maybe even harder.

I really appreciate the performances of all the pro riders, whether they are doped or not. I tried how far I can go in cycling, and while being fairly good amateur, I never had the talent to become a pro. I take pride of always training and racing clean even if dopers kicked my ass in many occasions but I can still respect dopers achievements because I know that they had to work and suffer for them just as hard or harder than I had to.


----------



## Bry03cobra

piano said:


> Q: What does implying that someone is gay and/or cruises public washrooms looking for anonymous sex have to do with this thread?
> 
> A: Absolutely nothing at all. It's just a childish and immature personal attack that I would hope would be highly frowned upon by the moderators (and mature participants) of this forum.
> 
> If you don't have something constructive or informative to say to back up your arguments, perhaps you should think twice about posting here.


Read the above posts from F1nut, stating that I "Jerk off" to livestrong. Then he followed up accusing me of being gay "not that there is a prob with that :wink: :wink: ". I implied that with his love of Greg Lemond that he would do anything for him. As much as that doesnt belong here, neither does slander and lies from F1nut.


----------



## OES

hooj said:


> I really appreciate the performances of all the pro riders, whether they are doped or not. I tried how far I can go in cycling, and while being fairly good amateur, I never had the talent to become a pro. I take pride of always training and racing clean even if dopers kicked my ass in many occasions but I can still respect dopers achievements because I know that they had to work and suffer for them just as hard or harder than I had to.


Pretty cogent post here, man, and in fact the only one in this whole thread. And this here graf I snipped? Plus thirty eleventy.


----------



## F1nut

Bry03cobra said:


> Then he followed up accusing me of beinggay "not that there is a prob with that :wink: :wink: ". .


1.) Chill out Cobra.

2.) Ferrari Has admitted EPO was not yet available until 1989, I'll dig that up somewhere.

3. Michele Ferrari also admitts blood doping was not going on, or hints at this; apart from the olympics and Moser's deal. 

4.) LeMond could have doped fully for his day, but it would not have been with EPO until, 1989 Tour at the VERY earliest.

5.) 1991 is the accepted time when EPO started in the pros. The times and power values as I showed are not Linear; they shoot up in 1991.

6.) No Alp D'Huez time before 1991 is in the top 25.

Think of it like this, What are the chances that in the 10 years before that; EVERY RIDER could not even get inside the top 25 times, do you know how ridiculous that sounds?  

7.) The reason I dont think LeMond used EPO is in experience with myself and others. I would ride The Alp D'Huez in about 45:35 if I chose to use EPO and gain 20% power output. Cleanly, I cant EVER never break 53:00 or so. I'm about 3 minutes slower than a clean Lance on Alp D' Huez yes. On a flat road it would be spaced bigger; *but you get the veracity of what I'm trying to pint out no?*
There are guys in cat 1/2 that have higher watt/kilo than LeMond did Cobra.

People, LeMond was junior national champion, *WORLD CHAMPION*; a very, very BIG talent right from the very start at age 15. He was at a world class level from day 1. 










_Gold 1979 Buenos Aires Junior World Road Race 
Gold 1983 Altenrhein Elite Men's Road Race 
Gold 1989 Chambéry Elite Men's Road Race 
Silver 1982 Goodwood Elite Men's Road Race 
Silver 1985 Giavera di Montello Elite Men's Road Race _




Lance.... Not AT ALL....



Read some of the other posts, like about McEwen and the others. Do you only read what you want to see? 

ps, Ttug is a troll, no one will do anything about it though...


----------



## lookrider

hooj said:


> It's more likely that GL doped than that he didn't dope..


Uh, no.....

When you win right off the bat, and there is no doubt that LeMond was dominating everything from the time he started, there is no reason to take peds. The guy could compete *and* dominate the best from his first race.

Nice unfounded innuendo though....


----------



## F1nut

PhatTalc said:


> I think there is a mistake here: If you use the kreuzotter calculator, Lance would be up Alpe d'huez in around 42 minutes (380W, 158 lbs, bike: 15lbs, 7.9%, 8.57 miles, average elevation around 4500ft).
> 
> (450W for a 130lb rider would give the stupidly high ftp). The (72+8)kg thing comes from a popular French cycling magazine where they estimate the power of riders on the demanding/important stages of the big tours.



He bro,
_Alpe Tourist Association _describes the climb as 14.454km and lists Pantani's 37m 35s (23.08km/h) as the record. Its 8.975 miles dude, just about 9 miles on the $$. I used Lance at 164 pounds bro, thats what he stated in a French Deposition. :thumbsup: 

Yeh, Rasmussen's FTP was stoopidly high :mad2: 

Hey, I did it out on the Plateu Belle.... Lance had 6.2 for 2004 if Belle was a steady 7.9%. Chicken would have been at 6.6 in 2007.

The reason that simulation is wront though:

Its not a steady climb! It kicks up to 10-11% grade in sections km 11km -12.5 and then from 14- to the top.

What that french magazine is likely refering to is the fact that on those steep sections of the climb in 2007, Rass and Contadoper were still doping 11-12 mph which is like 450w bro...... Their average power for that climb was like 420 and they were doing like 7 watts per Kilo. Evans lost 1:52 or so on that stage with "his" "5.8." 

-Chicken weighs in at 130 pound dude:


----------



## Bry03cobra

F1nut said:


> LeMond could have doped fully for his day, but it would not have been with EPO until, 1989 Tour at the VERY earliest.


this is what I have said before, I dont see GL using EPO when he was racing, too dangerous/ risky. I just don't get how people can say that they are 100% sure he didn't use ANYTHING.




F1nut said:


> People, LeMond was junior national champion, *WORLD CHAMPION*; a very, very BIG talent right from the very start at age 15. He was at a world class level from day 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Gold 1979 Buenos Aires Junior World Road Race
> Gold 1983 Altenrhein Elite Men's Road Race
> Gold 1989 Chambéry Elite Men's Road Race
> Silver 1982 Goodwood Elite Men's Road Race
> Silver 1985 Giavera di Montello Elite Men's Road Race _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lance.... Not AT ALL....


You are wrong about Lance here, he got a later start in cycling than GL. 

1985 finished 2nd in the national Youth triathlon championship at age 13. 

1989 &1990 he was was national triathlon champion (sprint distance) at age 17/18

1990 he was national amateur road race champ (cycling part time)

1993 his 2nd year as a pro cyclist he won the UCI world championship road race, the US national cycling championship and a stage in the TDF 

Then a couple disappointing seasons, Who knows if he doping caused his cancer or not. A doper or not the man had talent at a young age. To act as if he was nothing without the sauce is not giving him credit when he was definitely clean.


----------



## F1nut

Bry03cobra said:


> I dont see GL using EPO when he was racing, too dangerous/ risky. I just don't get how people can say that they are 100% sure he didn't use ANYTHING.
> 
> 
> 1989 &1990 he was was national triathlon champion (sprint distance) at age 17/18
> 
> 1990 he was national amateur road race champ (cycling part time)
> 
> 1993 his 2nd year as a pro cyclist he won the UCI world championship road race, the US national cycling championship and a stage in the TDF
> 
> Then a couple disappointing seasons, Who knows if he doping caused his cancer or not. .



Lance wasnt clean in 1990.

Did You Never Read the USAC Case?

Lance is the bye-product of no supervision from parents, but rather supervision from Steroid dealers at USOC. :thumbsup: 

You cant tell me he watched the younger 17 year olds getting 4 injections a day and didnt do it. Lance was doing it at age 18. If someone is injecting 4 times per day at 18, when did they start? You cant tell me he started that summer.  

_Steroids have a big effect in kids leagues when the competition isnt doing it._

EPO was Candy by 1993. LeMond was still racing in 1993 and couldnt make the National team I dont believe. The 1989 World Champion Coudnt be competitive 4 years later at 33 years old.










The person that claimed Greg LeMond used steroids because his arms look big in that picure in 1989 are total fools, tools, or just trolls. 

There is nothing on LeMond, no court battles, no positive tests, no doping doctors, nothing, except his 5.8 watts per kilo that I could get up to if I used EPO, and I;m cat 2 hack.

Before EPO, there was amphetamines, corticoids and cocaine maybe? I dont think snorting sugar is going to help your ventilatory capacity much. Certainly difficult to hold a strait line.

Using coricoids can increase your VO2 max a little bit through better training... But no more than a couple of percent tops. EPO makes a 20% difference if you jack it all the way. 

It was physically possible for LeMond to win that cleanly at the time. I have heard LeMond MIGHT have admitted to having prescriptions for corticoids to treat an injury he had. I have no sources for that though..... He maybe was taken advantage of; his doctors were quick to put him on them if you know what I mean....  Or he might not have understood that was doping. He was belligerently againsy doping very soon into his career...

Watch Lance Talk About doping

He says things like, *"Your just going to have to watch it and accept it as entertainment,"* -refering to gene doping in the future.

And look at the difference in styles; lance had something like 120 RPM at his FTP in Time Trials, whereas LeMond had as low as 70's... Somebody who's jacked on EPO rides differently, its robotic; and somebody who is at 7,000 feet on the Alp D'Huez is going to gasp and grimace; _unless their heamotocrit is jacked through the roof._

Marian used epo too. :wink: 










Swoosh










Look at the effect it eventually had on her. 




















Lance doesnt care


----------



## lookrider

Bry03cobra said:


> this is what I have said before, I dont see GL using EPO when he was racing, too dangerous/ risky. I just don't get how people can say that they are 100% sure he didn't use ANYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong about Lance here, he got a later start in cycling than GL.
> 
> 1985 finished 2nd in the national Youth triathlon championship at age 13.
> 
> 1989 &1990 he was was national triathlon champion (sprint distance) at age 17/18
> 
> 1990 he was national amateur road race champ (cycling part time)
> 
> 1993 his 2nd year as a pro cyclist he won the UCI world championship road race, the US national cycling championship and a stage in the TDF
> 
> Then a couple disappointing seasons, Who knows if he doping caused his cancer or not. A doper or not the man had talent at a young age. To act as if he was nothing without the sauce is not giving him credit when he was definitely clean.


Bry03cobra,

LeMond was acknowledged by other pros to be a man among men when he turned pro. He beat Millar by over 10 minutes in the Tour of the Future.

When Michael Jordan came up one of his Bulls teammates famously quipped, "Michael Jordan is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help us God."

Larry Bird said "that was God disguised as Michael Jordan."

When Lawrence Taylor came up, teams were gearing their whole offensive plans to deal with him.

When LeMond came up he was recognized to be Hinault's heir apparent. LeMond was sick his first TdF and still came in 3rd. He gifted the next one to Hinault when he was 24. *Everyone* realized LeMond was going to be an all time great when he was a new pro. Lance was just a good one day racer and *no one* thought he was going to be a good Tour rider. 

Really, please stop your silliness already....


----------



## Digger28

hooj said:


> It's more likely that GL doped than that he didn't dope. .


Any evidence, either circumstantial or otherwise, to support this claim?


----------



## Bry03cobra

F1nut said:


> Lance wasn't clean in 1990.
> 
> Did You Never Read the USAC Case?


Greg Strock interview

Yes and no, too much Lawyer speak. I did read a interview with Gregory Strock about the case....HE said that Lance never was under the supervision of the coach who doped him. 

Another mis-true statement from a self admitting Lance hater. I could give a rats ass if either one of them doped (LA or GL). I never stated that it was fact that Lemond doped. I look at facts and cycling history and have an opinion. Do I think Lance doped?? Yes. Can I state that it a fact that he did? NO. Do I think Lemond doped? Yes(no to EPO, but other things, yes). You continue to make statements as truths that can never be proven as fact. So LA was winning national triathlons at 14 years old doped? Keep allowing your hate for Lance to cloud your vision


----------



## r_mutt

Bry03cobra said:


> Greg Strock interview
> 
> Yes and no, too much Lawyer speak. I did read a interview with Gregory Strock about the case....HE said that Lance never was under the supervision of the coach who doped him.



from that strock interview:

_VN: The one incident that gets raised most frequently when people read this complaint is that time in Spokane, Washington - August 22, 1990:

"Wenzel represented to Strock that they were going to the other coach to get Strock injected with more of the same substance that had been earlier identified as 'extract of cortisone.'

The other coach produced a briefcase, placed it on a stand at the end of his bed and opened it. The briefcase was filled with ampoules of drugs and syringes. The coach selected an ampoule and syringe, inserted the needle into the ampoule and drew out a liquid. Strock laid face down on the bed and was injected in the upper part of his buttocks. As Wenzel supervised, the other coach was the last person Strock saw holding the syringe before he was injected."

You don't mention the name of the other coach. Do you know who that coach is?

GS: Yes

(and at that point, Strock's attorney interrupts and clarifies that his client cannot mention the other coach's name and declined to say why.) _



you do know who that unnamed coach is, don't you? i'll give you a clue; his initials are CC.


----------



## hooj

lookrider said:


> Uh, no.....
> 
> When you win right off the bat, and there is no doubt that LeMond was dominating everything from the time he started, there is no reason to take peds. The guy could compete *and* dominate the best from his first race.
> 
> Nice unfounded innuendo though....





Digger28 said:


> Any evidence, either circumstantial or otherwise, to support this claim?


Well lets put it this way. It's more likely than any of the high level amateur or professional cyclists doped in 80's and 90's than that they didn't dope. It was/is very much a deep rooted cultural issue. I hope that you can see what I'm trying to say here.

US results meant nothing 10-years ago IMO and are starting to indicate international level of a rider only now. Even more so national junior results mean very little. I raced with guys from US who had impressive palmares from US domestic races but got their asses handed over to them in euro amateur scene.

But why is it such a huge issue even if GL doped?


----------



## bigpinkt

r_mutt said:


> from that strock interview:
> 
> _VN: The one incident that gets raised most frequently when people read this complaint is that time in Spokane, Washington - August 22, 1990:
> 
> "Wenzel represented to Strock that they were going to the other coach to get Strock injected with more of the same substance that had been earlier identified as 'extract of cortisone.'
> 
> The other coach produced a briefcase, placed it on a stand at the end of his bed and opened it. The briefcase was filled with ampoules of drugs and syringes. The coach selected an ampoule and syringe, inserted the needle into the ampoule and drew out a liquid. Strock laid face down on the bed and was injected in the upper part of his buttocks. As Wenzel supervised, the other coach was the last person Strock saw holding the syringe before he was injected."
> 
> You don't mention the name of the other coach. Do you know who that coach is?
> 
> GS: Yes
> 
> (and at that point, Strock's attorney interrupts and clarifies that his client cannot mention the other coach's name and declined to say why.) _
> 
> 
> 
> you do know who that unnamed coach is, don't you? i'll give you a clue; his initials are CC.


The other coach was Chris Carmichael, who had reached an out of court settlement with the riders.


----------



## normalnorm

Bry03cobra said:


> Your kidding right? Hero??? We have a different definition of hero. Hero is a fireman running into a burning building to risk his life for another. Someone who risks themself to help another. Even with Lance's cancer support he is no hero, if his intentions weren't self centered LA could have been considered a hero. Alhough LA has directly helped some cancer surivours, they could/would look at him as a hero. What has Greg done for anyone other then himself?


+1

Just my input....any of the winners of the TDF in the last 50 years have used some type of PED. That goes for generally all sports.


----------



## F1nut

Why Cortizone up the butt on a 17-yr old?:lol: :skep:

I guess lance just _kept to himself _on that team. Four times per day.:23:

Cobra lives in the Theater of the absurd!


----------



## lookrider

hooj said:


> But why is it such a huge issue even if GL doped?


Character assasination based on absolutely no evidence is a pretty big deal, no?

If Pharmstrong's fans and the general non cycling public knew the truth about him, do you think he would be commanding 6 figures for corporate speeches?


----------



## F1nut

There is absolutely NO evidence physical or circumstancial that LeMond ever used anything banned. 

-NO teamates coming out about his drug use. 

-no positives, like Epo and cortizone

-no blood doping doctor convicted of sporting fraud and pharmesutical malpractice

-no reporters finding Medical waste like cow blood, transfusion equipment in the dumster (Nike Circa 2000), 

-No books written about drug use and fraud

-no use exemptions for testosterone and Corticoids because of one ball (iron to replace his anemia from getting shot and losing 60% of his blood volum)-

-no permanently sick teamates, 

-no teamates with an "axe to grind", 

-no dead teamates living in a cemetery in their 20's, 30's

-no teamates with testicular cancer. 

-no alcoholic, cocaine addicted transient homeless people as ex-teamates. (Chad)


on LeMond You have:

-Sleeping pills

-Iron

-A can of coke maybe? 

Is that the best you've done or did I give you the last one Cobra?










=Maybe he uses antidepressants now too.


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## F1nut

Lets view a few of the doped/DEAD former teamates of Lance that had medical support _and help from doctors _just like everyone else:

Frankie Andreu (confession in the NY Times and under oath) Stephen Swartz (confession)













Greg Strock (confession and Crohn's disease)










Erich Kaiter (diseased too)


David Francis (confession)


Gerrick Latta (confession)

Stive Vermaut (death at age 26)



















Michel Zanoli (death at age 35)























Roid Floyd Landis (busted in the 2006 TDF)












Tyler Hamilton (busted in 2004 for blood transfusion and woman's post menopause drugs)











Roberto Heras (busted in Vuelta de Espana)












Benoit Joachim (busted in 2000)










Ivan Basso (confession)










Alberto Contadoper (never explained why he needed a gynochologist who collects blood bags and rights EPO, hGH, testosterone on chalkboards with riders names next to them.)










Sean Yates (vascular illness)


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## Digger28

F1nut said:


> Lets view a few of the doped/DEAD former teamates of Lance that had medical support _and help from doctors _just like everyone else:
> 
> Sean Yates (vascular illness)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Hey, I rarely disagree with your sentiments, as I admire your stance and knowledge. But Sean Yates definitely did not dope. When you get someone like Kimmage commenting on how clean he was, then this is saying something. Kimmage was on the same Fagor team as him, and shared a room with him on many occasions.
> Now, obviously we all know who he is now working for and with, and that's another story, but he was clean when he raced himself.


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## F1nut

We may have a slight difference of opinion. What about this? Maybe he promotes anti-doping within the team sponsored by Astana, Kazachstan?


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## pedalruns

F1nut said:


> Tyler Hamilton (busted in 2004 for blood transfusion and woman's post menopause drugs)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]


LOL!!!!!!! 

.


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## Justridinalong

F1nut said:


> What does USA Cycling Federation doping their 17-year old athletes resulting in cancer and life-lasting disease have to do with "getting under Lance's skin?"
> 
> What does someone who _*does not have the money to sue the organization that gave them their testicular cancer or chrons colitis *_have to do with Nike Pharmstrong who has made $120,000,000+ off of his cancer. ALL of it given to him by Michele Ferrari who no doubt jerks off to cheaters and liars and other criminals that share his values of empty denials and atheistic, self serving, shamelessness.
> 
> 
> Your yet another NIKE tool Cobra. Buy those LiveWrong $299.99 ugly Yellow sneakers, and that $999.99 LiveWrong HP Laptop that gives $50.00 to cancer.
> 
> 12-21 year olds are controlled by Nike Tools and Public Relations themes. Sally Jenkins and Barnes and Noble corruption aimed at Cobra to jerk off too.


WELL SAID!!!!


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## Slim Again Soon

*Just as every cop is a criminal...*

... and all the sinners saints.

But it still comes down to this:

LeMond = Champion = Hero


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