# Shimano 10 compatible with Campagnolo 11 ?



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I got at the end of the winter, a Campagnolo Record 11 set for Cyclocross from a pro who changed sponsors, very nice with a Campagnolo original 46T ring.

My Cyclocross bike is on Dura Ace and as is not in use until next Autumn, I didn't made the conversion yet.

Yesterday it was a rainy day so I decided to start the conversion, I setup the wheels and to have a preview of how it would look I dit put it ( it has a Campagnolo Record 11 cassette ) on the bike that still is fully mounted on Dura Ace 10

To my surprise I saw the chain fits the spacing, but not only that, it also shifts right from the 1st to the 10th Cog.

It was a bit noisy, because I think the Dura Ace chain is a hair wider than the Campagnolo 11 chain, but it does shift properly.

I haven't tested it riding, only on the workstand, but I reckon it would work.

That means for example you can ride Campa 11 wheels on full Shimano 10 setups or maybe also the opposite is true, so run a Shimano 10 speed wheel on a 11 sp Campa setup. Well in that case there is a risk that you would push the chain into the spokes if you shift to the 11th Cog though.

Very interesting. that could mean that the 11 speed Campagnolo is as strong as the Shimano 10 setup ? I would have to measure Cog and chain thicknesses to have a clear idea about that.

But, then how would Shimano do to fit one more Cog in their drivetrain and wheels without enlarging the freewheel or change the dishing or spacement of the rear hub ? It would be even worse with discs.

Thoughts ?


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Very interesting. that could mean that the 11 speed Campagnolo is as strong as the Shimano 10 setup?


This is a joke, right? Where in the world would you get the idea that an 11-speed Campy setup would be "less strong" than a Shimano one? If anything, it will be stronger.

On a slightly related note, I changed my 11-speed Campy Record chain two weeks ago. Ran and shifted perfectly still, but was getting borderline according to Campy specs. The chain had 6,200 miles on it.



Salsa_Lover said:


> But, then how would Shimano do to fit one more Cog in their drivetrain and wheels without enlarging the freewheel or change the dishing or spacement of the rear hub ? It would be even worse with discs.


Good question. Campy's cassette is wider than Shimano 10-speed, even though the spacing of the cogs is slightly narrower. I'm a bit surprised that it shifts so well in your test, but since the difference is small, and with the play that Shimano derailleurs have in their upper jockeywheel, maybe it works o.k.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Pirx said:


> This is a joke, right? Where in the world would you get the idea that an 11-speed Campy setup would be "less strong" than a Shimano one? If anything, it will be stronger.


Well I was under the impression that more cogs means also thinner cogs and narrower and thinner chain, then all else equal a 10 speed shimano is less strong than a 8 speed shimano for example, and that you can see it clearly, the chains and cogs are indeed flimsier in comparison.

So as an analogy I was thinking that the 11 speed chain and cogs have to be also thinner and weaker



> On a slightly related note, I changed my 11-speed Campy Record chain two weeks ago. Ran and shifted perfectly still, but was getting borderline according to Campy specs. The chain had 6,200 miles on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Good question. Campy's cassette is wider than Shimano 10-speed, even though the spacing of the cogs is slightly narrower. I'm a bit surprised that it shifts so well in your test, but since the difference is small, and with the play that Shimano derailleurs have in their upper jockeywheel, maybe it works o.k.


yes probably that is the reason, the play on the rear derailer.


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## ultraman6970 (Aug 1, 2010)

Dunno why it doesnt surprise me. Is good to know tho.

The chain should work noisy but should work.

If shimano wants 11 and discs at some point they are going to have to move to 135 even tho you can find shimano 130 mm hubs designed with disc tabs, the problem is the dishing is way too extreme but it works. Had a set of cane creeks volos built for 130 and disc tabs.

What wouldnt surprise me is if shimano came up with another hub that doesnt match any of the other ones they had to accomodate 11 or 12, the bad news is that sure wont be interchangeable with anything else they sell, typical shimano behavior. Campagnolo has not changed their spineline specs for over a decade making at least your old wheels still useable. Shimano moved to a new dura ace and that screw up everybody because they have like 3 different hub bodies and nobody understand s...t! forcing you to buy new wheels and cassettes....Bad move IMO.

Thanks for the info.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*facts...*

Campy 11 cogs are the same 1.6mm thickness as Shimano 10, but the spacing is significantly narrower at 3.8mm, compared to Shimano's 3.95mm. The chain width is also significantly narrower at 5.5mm, compared to a 5.9mm 10 speed chain. You can squeeze a 10 speed chain onto an 11 speed cassette, but there is virtually no clearance betweent the chain and cogs, so it's not a good idea.

Campy 11 wheels on a Shimano 10 bike won't work too well, since the RD will overshift and the error accumulates after every shift. The error can be reduced with very careful adjustment of the shift cable tension, to split the error both ways from the center of the cassette.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

ultraman6970 said:


> Dunno why it doesnt surprise me. Is good to know tho.
> 
> The chain should work noisy but should work.
> 
> ...


AFAIK Shimano tried that already and falled back.

The main problem of a Shimano freehub is that the splines are not deep, that works well on steel frehub bodies, but whenever you try to have a softer body ( in Titanium or Alloy ) the steel cogs chew into it and soon ruin it.

The Campagonolo design is better, the splines are deeper so they can be built on softer material with less problems. That gives as a result, lighter rear hubs and wheels.

Shimano tried to correct this problem with the 10 speed alloy freehub body on the 7800 hub. but this made the new freehub design incompatible with 9 or 8 speed cassettes.

Shimano abandonned this design soon. will they try again an incompatible design for the 11 speed group ? we'll see.


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## SAIG (Dec 28, 2004)

Salsa 
Have you tried this combo on the road? I've read from rruff on the wheel forum that it works. I want to move to Campy but do not want give up Shimano/SRAM wheels and cassette.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Hello

no, I just noticed that on the workbench when I was installing the new group, and what I tried was a Campagnolo wheel on a Shimano 10 speed drivetrain.

as noted above, probably this was due to the "float" on the Shimano rear derailer. Probably that would work on the road too.

The opposite probably less well as the Campagnolo has not that float "feature"


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Salsa_Lover said:


> So as an analogy I was thinking that the 11 speed chain and cogs have to be also thinner and weaker


Not necessarily. There could be changes in design, materials, heat treatment, etc. to cancel what might be lost. Think about this. If what you said was true and each generation was weaker, what would that say for the life of the product? It would get shorter and shorter. I think the way it goes is that you design for the same loads and do what you need to do to get back to the same failure rate, whatever that might be.


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