# Price of Bikes/ Components



## mrvhappy (Jul 30, 2013)

Is it me or does everyone else find the price of bikes & components very expensive?

As someone who works in procurement, it astounds me to see how much things cost and the retail price even allowing for a fair profit margin!!

In most parts of the world bicycles are an simple cheap form of transport. They last a long time and can carry heavy goods if required. Maintenance costs are a minimum.

Many bikes in the "West" are increasingly becoming a rich mans toy, yet many bikes by top manufactures are made/assembled in the Far East very cheaply..but the savings don't appear to be passed on to the average person!!

On a recent trip to India, I could have bought a Honda 125CC motorbike for approx £800 brand new. A half decent bicycle in the UK costs the best part of £1000 (approx US $ 1500)..I doubt if the cost inc shipping is more than £50 per bike....this is crazy!!

I understand that the Companies have to make a profit to "...fund R&D costs ...etc" ...but the mark up on the bikes /components is ridiculous!!

*Graeme Obree built a bike from an old washing machine & I think he broke the World Record on this bike....what is it they say about" .. necessity being the mother of inventions......."*


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

I don't know what you're talking about. $159 is cheap.
GMC Denali 700c Road Bike - Walmart.com


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Save Up To 60% Off Road Bikes, Bicycles, Mountain Bikes and Bicycles with Bikesdirect.com, New with full warranties

savings are passed to the consumer.


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## mrvhappy (Jul 30, 2013)

tlg said:


> I don't know what you're talking about. $159 is cheap.
> GMC Denali 700c Road Bike - Walmart.com



I am in the UK...not USA...I hear that the prices over there are much cheaper.
A decent road bike here is approx £900 - £1,000.00...

Specialized allez - Allez Elite - 2013



I live in rip off Britain!!


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

mrvhappy said:


> I am in the UK...not USA...I hear that the prices over there are much cheaper.
> A decent road bike here is approx £900 - £1,000.00...
> 
> Specialized allez - Allez Elite - 2013
> ...


It's called taxes for businesses to do business


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

I agree. The price of bikes has really gone thru the roof. Yea, you can buy are ally cheap bike at walmart, etc but looking at the price of the middle of the pack or higher tier lines your looking at 5 grand. Just to make the case, the last time I was in the market for a new bike was about 15 years ago, now when I was going to buy a new bike it looked like $5000 for a decent bike and up to $10000+ for a top of the line light carbon bike. Also I noticed bikes had tags hanging from them with companies willing to give loans out to purchase a new bike. I was like wholly cow just like shopping for a car. Why out of line and probably will not get an cheaper with lighter fares and electronic gears being developed.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

I don't really think they're much cheaper here. And you are arbitrarily defining what level you consider a "decent" road bike. There are plenty of functional machines for less than that.


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## BeginnerCycling (Jun 4, 2011)

JCavilia said:


> And you are arbitrarily defining what level you consider a "decent" road bike. There are plenty of functional machines for less than that.


^^^This. While many of the mid to high end road bike prices do seem high to me, I think it's mixing apples and oranges to talk about transport bikes. In many parts of the world (and the U.S. too) people are riding cruiser-type bikes (including Oma/Flying Pigeon) or cheap mountain bikes for transport purposes, available in the US from $89 to around $350 new.

As for $5,000 for a "decent" road bike, IMHO 95% or more riders don't really "need" or benefit much from a bike over $2,000 (example: Trek Madone 3.1) -- and that Allez linked to is about $1100 in the US. I'm not saying don't spend more if it's your passion, just that most don't need to spend $5,000, let alone $10,000.


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

gofast2wheeler said:


> I agree. The price of bikes has really gone thru the roof. Yea, you can buy are ally cheap bike at walmart, etc but looking at the price of the middle of the pack or higher tier lines your looking at 5 grand. Just to make the case, the last time I was in the market for a new bike was about 15 years ago, now when I was going to buy a new bike it looked like $5000 for a decent bike and up to $10000+ for a top of the line light carbon bike. Also I noticed bikes had tags hanging from them with companies willing to give loans out to purchase a new bike. I was like wholly cow just like shopping for a car. Why out of line and probably will not get an cheaper with lighter fares and electronic gears being developed.


So, it's kind of hard to find historical pricing data. There is a bit here from 1991. Top of the line, Campagnolo Record-equipped bikes ranged from $2,200 to $7,000 in 1991 USD. That's about $3,400 to $12,000 in 2013 dollars. A Bianchi Oltre XR with Campagnolo SR EPS is $13,500 *MSRP*. A top of the line racing frame with top of the line racing technology for about 11% more than you'd be paying for a top of the line bike in 1991, taking inflation into account.

Yeah, it's a quick and dirty comparison, but I don't see that much difference between top of the line then and now, as far as pricing goes.

Also, there are plenty of race-worthy complete bikes available from bike shops for under $1,500. I'm not sure where you're getting $5,000 = "decent".


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

In a lot of the fancier road bikes you're paying for the R&D that went into them as well as the money to sponsor professionals. After all, someone has to pay for the EPO.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

This has been hashed out time and again.
You are offering an apples to oranges argument.
The rich man's toy market is just that, if you want to buy it you pay for it. Amazingly enough an individual can actually buy the same bike that the pros ride. Try doing that in a motor sport and see how far you get.
If you want a utility bike like those that you mention those can be had for a low price, with low maintenance.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

mrvhappy said:


> I am in the UK...not USA...I hear that the prices over there are much cheaper.
> A decent road bike here is approx £900 - £1,000.00...
> 
> Specialized allez - Allez Elite - 2013
> ...


So what's wrong with... Specialized allez - Allez - 2013 ??
Is £550.00 not cheap enough for you?


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

I think you are confusing buying what you _want_ vs buying what you _need. If you're just in the market for a bike (say an endurance road bike), like what was mentioned earlier_, you can buy a decent (that is to say usable, serviceable, with current technology) bike for around $500. However, if you a want very light, strong, technologically advanced, high end material (CF or titanium) bike, you're gonna pay through the nose, the the lighter, stronger, et.al the higher the price.
Since you're in GB, I'd tell you that both Wiggle and Ribble Cycles both have excellent choices and prices, in addition at least in the U.K. you have the option of getting significant purchasing assistance on your bike if you're gonna commute on it (we don't have that here in the U.S.). Also consider that regardless of the sport weight and performance will always cost more the closer to the pinnacle you get. For example if you want STI's that will work reliably, you can get a set of 2x10 from Microshift for @ $160, but they are loud and not always well regarded (fairly or not). On the other side of the coin, Dura-Ace 9000 STI's , I've witnessed prices north of $500 for a 2x10 set, but they are whisper quiet, and considered world class without question. If you're aspiring to race then Dura-Ace is the way to go, but if you're just doing group rides and commuting, then Microshift will do the job (just without the bragging rights).


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

mrvhappy said:


> I am in the UK...not USA...I hear that the prices over there are much cheaper. A decent road bike here is approx £900 - £1,000.00.


Actually you completely missed the point. You can be forgiven since you are not familiar with the GMC Denali but it is a relative "piece of crap." tlg's point was that it's all about how you define "decent." As an alpine skier, I can easily pay $800 for "decent" skis and $600 for boots, likewise more than your Indian Honda scooter. I can also get skis and boots for a small fraction of those prices.

Comparing pretty good bicycles to bottom end scooters doesn't make your case. When I was a kid you could buy a Schwinn Varsity (something equivalent to a Raleigh Sport) for about $400 (£275) in today's money. They weighed 35 lbs. (16 kg) with steel rims, cranks, chain wheels, bars, seat post, and stem, weak brakes and a 5 speed freewheel. What do you suppose a clunker like that would retail for today?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

If you forgo gears you can get a bike pretty cheap... free shipping too!

On Sale Framed Lifted Flat Bar Bike S/S Black/Yellow 52cm 2013


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

mrvhappy said:


> Is it me or does everyone else find the price of bikes & components very expensive?
> 
> I understand that the Companies have to make a profit to "...fund R&D costs ...etc" ...but the mark up on the bikes /components is ridiculous!!


You're right! Parts are getting expensive, how much you ask? Well let me tell you a story. In 1984 I bought a brand new Trek 660 frame and fork (the second best frame Trek made back then) and had it equipped with Suntour Superbe group (the best group for racing ever made), I paid about $1300 for the entire package including pro install. Speed up to 2013; two months ago I bought the lowest costing Lynskey Ti bike equipped with Shimano 105 components package including wheels but swapped the rear derailleur for Ultegra, and a Enve 2.0 fork, this bike cost me just under $3000.

Now factor in inflation, $1300 in 1984 today would take about $2,922 to buy something equivalent with. But here is the problem, bikes did not keep up with inflation, they soared way above the rate of inflation, because the new bike I got was the lowest end bike they sold with mid level components but a high end fork. Had I ordered the same bike with high end Dura Ace it would have costed me another $1600! That's $1600 above the inflation rate from 84.

This is an odd situation considering the fact that the reason component manufactures and frames are now mostly built in China which was done for the reason to bring down the cost of purchasing parts!! It hasn't brought down the costs at all in fact it's raised it a lot, but this has increased profits to the manufacture tremendously and bike shops make more profit now then ever before, but we spend more so we get less. 

There was always R & D going on from the beginning of time with components, so that's just a lame excuse. And there isn't much R&D going on with rear derailleurs since Suntour invented the modern way of how they work back in the 70's, and front derailleurs haven't changed how they function even longer then that! And I hate to say this, but I own two types of integrated shifting platforms, Shimano 105 and Campy Athena, and neither shift as well as Shimano SIS down tube index shifting use to, and I even verified that with a friends Dura Ace integrated system. SIS system snapped into place right now, no hesitation. Integrated systems are also more expensive then either SIS or Friction, wear out faster and thus less reliable all around.

So in a nutshell...they have us by the balls. But to some degree you can fight back, don't buy into the hype of needing Dura Ace or Ultegra, or Record or Chorus, instead stay with the mid level components like 105 and Athena, these are considered the workhorse components, heavier then the others but more rugged, and cheaper to replace when things go south.


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

While working on the PhD in Wuhan PRC in 2004 I had a big black bike made by the Shanghai Bicycle Company (Forever Bicycles). 

It had a mattress saddle and drum brakes. The bike came with a 44 tooth chain wheel and an 18 tooth single speed freewheel, fenders, chromed steel handle bars, and three piece cottered steel crank and a light powered by a huge dynamo that sounded like a coffee grinder. It also came with a look-a-like of Fletcher spring topped rack on back. There was a kick-stand sort of like a triangle attached to the bike at the rear axle that popped up behind the rear wheel when I parked that bike it was not going to fall over. It had wheels that were an actual 28 or 29 inches in diameter, just absolutely huge with tire that I bet are still holding air and not 1/2 worn out after all these years

It literally weighed 63 pounds! A fun ride back to the dingy little graduate student apartment when half drunk after dinner.

All of this cost me 227 RMB at the department store near the university which was about $12 or $15 at the time. After I graduated I just parked the bike unlocked on the side walk in front of a Carrefour grocery store

I had legs like Eddy Merkx by the time I graduated and moved back to Hong Kong

The point is you couldn't sell many bikes like that in the US or Europe. Despite that it was so feature packed! Not even the Dutch would ride one of those things. I doubt I would buy one if I had another choice. 

It was a novelty at the time

It looked like this only this one does not have the drum brakes but rod brakes
forever-bicycle


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## mrvhappy (Jul 30, 2013)

*Not called Taxes...but GREED*



tednugent said:


> It's called taxes for businesses to do business



Its not called Taxes for business....

Many (BIG) Businesses don't pay as much tax as you would think ...ask PWC, KPMG, Google, Tesco, Yahoo, Apple, BP, Starbucks..etc. Many of these companies use tax loopholes so they pay little or no tax in the country where they generate profits!!

Its called GREED.

A "decent bike" in the UK (what the UK Govt will allow for the ride-to-work scheme) costs approx GBP £1,000. Its amazing how much the price of a "Decent bike" falls when a new model is launched..if you can afford to buy one!!

The point that I am trying to make is that in the current economic situation, people who want to ride to work (if they have a job) would struggle not only to find that sort of money, but also the maintenance costs thereafter.

I believe that in the UK at least,cycling should be for all...not for those to can afford the high prices. It would get people healthier thereby reducing the cost to the National Health Service and also cut pollution especially in London.

I am talking about a bike that I can ride to work and use at weekends


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## mrvhappy (Jul 30, 2013)

Kerry Irons said:


> Actually you completely missed the point. You can be forgiven since you are not familiar with the GMC Denali but it is a relative "piece of crap." tlg's point was that it's all about how you define "decent." As an alpine skier, I can easily pay $800 for "decent" skis and $600 for boots, likewise more than your Indian Honda scooter. I can also get skis and boots for a small fraction of those prices.
> 
> Comparing pretty good bicycles to bottom end scooters doesn't make your case. When I was a kid you could buy a Schwinn Varsity (something equivalent to a Raleigh Sport) for about $400 (£275) in today's money. They weighed 35 lbs. (16 kg) with steel rims, cranks, chain wheels, bars, seat post, and stem, weak brakes and a 5 speed freewheel. What do you suppose a clunker like that would retail for today?


The CB125 Indian Motorbike is not a scooter!!

If you purchase a bike in the UK for say GBP £1000, you know that it will last for some time if looked after etc. The £200-£500 bikes are very heavy and components are not good for every day commuter rides..in my humble experience.

The point that I am trying to make is that you don't have to pay for quality..despite what the Marketing men tell you!!...

I know I work in Procurement, I have seen the costs of the cheap/"expensive" goods compared to the Final selling prices!! (even after you take into consideration Business overheads).

I am for Business making money, but not for being ripped off!!


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

I'll challenge your argument.
In 1981 I built a steel frame columbus tubing (house brand), SR/NV Campy, Cinelli, Mavic bike for $1500.
Per the inflation calculator that is $4250 today 
Inflation Calculator- from InflationData.com
I built a better bike this year with Lynskey, Campy, and Chris King, Pacenti, and some Ritchey trim for less than the $4250.
The cost of similar quality parts in bikes has not soared, a much higher quality level has been generated and if you want to step up to it you pay for it.
I agree with you that one should stick with mid range components to keep costs down.


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## mrvhappy (Jul 30, 2013)

mikerp said:


> I'll challenge your argument.
> In 1981 I built a steel frame columbus tubing (house brand), SR/NV Campy, Cinelli, Mavic bike for $1500.
> Per the inflation calculator that is $4250 today
> Inflation Calculator- from InflationData.com
> ...


People seem to be missing my point. As the end of the day, this is a Bicycle we are talking about. No engine, fuel injection, Road safety/Emissions tests etc.

It should be the cheapest form of transport...irrespective of the so called Technology used. (price of Steel & Aluminum was higher that the price of Carbon the last time that I looked!!).

Most R&D 'technology' has been borrowed/adapted from other industries!!. like F1, & Aerospace (Carbon/Alloy)

1) I am referring to prices in the UK as I don't know how things are in other parts of the world apart from India which I visit on a regular basis.
If I tell people that my bicycle costs me £1000+...they would think that I am crazy or need my head examined!!
A new Honda 125 costs approx £800!! (similar motorbike in the UK would cost me approx £2600)

2) Often when building a bike from scratch, the price of the total build can exceed the price of a readily built bike...depending on how you procure the components etc.

If you were to see the prices that I see on a daily basis of the costs of the goods compared to the selling price...you would be as horrified as I am. The "expensive" components do NOT cost much more (<10%) to make than the "cheaper" ones often they are made side by side or in the same factory.(same labour rates/overheads apply)

If Graeme Obree can build a bike that can break a world record.... from broken washing machine spares....& only to be penalized by "regulations"....(funded by the bicycle industry?)..well it makes you think doesn't it?....hopefully.....

Most bicycles are made in the Far East for a reason...= Cost savings!!

I would challenge the manufactures of bicycles to publish the cost of their bikes/components (they have the systems in place.. I know as I have worked on the implementations !!) to prove my point! 


And Finally, 

a US$2,000 bike in the USA would cost me GBP £2000.(not £1,333.current exchange rate £1=$1.52).even though they both come from Tiawan!! QED


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

mrvhappy said:


> People seem to be missing my point. As the end of the day, this is a Bicycle we are talking about. No engine, fuel injection, Road safety/Emissions tests etc.
> 
> It should be the cheapest form of transport.


I'd say it is the cheapest form of transportation, your problem is you are not looking at transport bikes. I'm pretty sure the UK has Walmart level of bike.



mrvhappy said:


> Most R&D 'technology' has been borrowed/adapted from other industries!!. like F1, & Aerospace (Carbon/Alloy)


While these industries do R&D they don't hand out what they've learned from it to everyone else, bicycle companies can draw from the knowledge IE let's look into Carbon but they still need to do R&D for their application.



mrvhappy said:


> 1) I am referring to prices in the UK as I don't know how things are in other parts of the world apart from India which I visit on a regular basis.
> If I tell people that my bicycle costs me £1000+...they would think that I am crazy or need my head examined!!
> A new Honda 125 costs approx £800!! (similar motorbike in the UK would cost me approx £2600)


This is a factor of your tax happy, socialist society and supply and demand. Many in the US buy online and get parts cheaper from the UK than we can in the US.



mrvhappy said:


> 2) Often when building a bike from scratch, the price of the total build can exceed the price of a readily built bike...depending on how you procure the components etc.
> 
> If you were to see the prices that I see on a daily basis of the costs of the goods compared to the selling price...you would be as horrified as I am. The "expensive" components do NOT cost much more (<10%) to make than the "cheaper" ones often they are made side by side or in the same factory.(same labour rates/overheads apply)


This is a fact of life and marketing, the fix is buy the cheaper parts.



mrvhappy said:


> If Graeme Obree can build a bike that can break a world record.... from broken washing machine spares....& only to be penalized by "regulations"....(funded by the bicycle industry?)..well it makes you think doesn't it?....hopefully.....


So he used spares from washing machines.
Have you factored in the following:
His time
His tools
His workspace
All the above for the failures and development.
Etc
It's easy to say I built something from scrap material that only cost X, this isn't the true cost though.



mrvhappy said:


> Most bicycles are made in the Far East for a reason...= Cost savings!!


Due to govt regulations




mrvhappy said:


> a US$2,000 bike in the USA would cost me GBP £2000.(not £1,333.current exchange rate £1=$1.52).even though they both come from Tiawan!! QED


Complain to those riding your coat tails.


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## mrvhappy (Jul 30, 2013)

Hi Mikerp,

Thanks for your comments

You seem to miss my points.

I am looking at transport/commuter bikes.

The Walmart level of bikes and Trex for example..the quality & sales price difference is huge, but the manufacturing cost is these bikes is <10% difference.

The Carbon/Alloy issue is handled by companies that make these products. These services are sub contacted out..in the same way that Ford doesn't produce 100% of all the components that go into its cars.

UK and India are not tax happy Socialist society's. India's tax system is similar to that of the USA which is very different to the UK. Neither countries are Socialist!! Supply & Demand doesn't come into it. Its what the consumer is willing to pay!!

"This is a fact of life and marketing, the fix is buy the cheaper parts."

- Only if you are willing to accept what Marketing does!!.. As previously stated, the price differential between cheap/expensive parts is minimum...less than 10% in cost. There is a myth that you pay for what you get. This simply is not true!! Quality doesnt have to be expensive!!


So he used spares from washing machines.
Have you factored in the following:
His time
His tools
His workspace
All the above for the failures and development.
Etc
It's easy to say I built something from scrap material that only cost X, this isn't the true cost though.

He worked from home. He didn't have any failures as he was broke..so he made things work out of spare parts hence my comment on "necessity being the mother of ..".!!.


"Due to govt regulations" This is not the case in the UK...its all about cost & cheap labour & max profits.
There is no Govt regulations forcing a UK/EEC company to produce goods in The Far East.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

mrvhappy said:


> A "decent bike" in the UK (what the UK Govt will allow for the ride-to-work scheme) costs approx GBP £1,000.


Why don't you define what a decent bike is? Then maybe people would understand your point better.

You can start by explaining why a Specialized Allez, in the UK for £550.00, is not a decent bike.



tlg said:


> So what's wrong with... Specialized allez - Allez - 2013 ??
> Is £550.00 not cheap enough for you?


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

mrvhappy said:


> A "decent bike" in the UK (what the UK Govt will allow for the ride-to-work scheme) costs approx GBP £1,000. Its amazing how much the price of a "Decent bike" falls when a new model is launched..if you can afford to buy one!!
> 
> The point that I am trying to make is that in the current economic situation, people who want to ride to work (if they have a job) would struggle not only to find that sort of money, but also the maintenance costs thereafter.
> 
> ...


5 minutes on wiggle: wiggle.com | Bobbin Scout | Hybrid / City Bikes
Add a rack, saddle bag with flat repair kit, bottle cages, and blinking lights and you have a pretty great commuter for well under 1,000 GPB that can be still taken out for a long weekend fun-ride. Maintenance on that bike would be a cinch for anyone with basic tools and time.

How, exactly, are you defining a "decent" bike?

Is this a decent bike? wiggle.com | Cinelli Gazzetta Della Strada 2012 | Touring & R&onneur Bikes


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

mrvhappy said:


> And Finally,
> 
> a US$2,000 bike in the USA would cost me GBP £2000.(not £1,333.current exchange rate £1=$1.52).even though they both come from Tiawan!! QED


 Prices aren't really any different.

UK:
Specialized allez - Allez Sport - 2013
ALLEZ ELITE £900.00 ($1500 USD)
ALLEZ SPORT £725.00 ($1098 USD)
ALLEZ £550.00 ($833)
Specialized tarmac - Tarmac Elite - 2013 £1800.00 ($2700 USD)

US (MSRP prices which generally run high):
Specialized Bicycle Components
ALLEZ ELITE $1100 
ALLEZ SPORT $940 
ALLEZ $770
Specialized Bicycle Components $2500


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

In the early 90's I was riding a Merlin Mountain decked out with CNC goodies. Grafton brakes, levers, cranks. IRD post, Dean Ti stem, etc.
Had over 5g's invested in that baby. Loved that bike.
Using the inflation calculator posted above it came out to 9g.

Have the price of bikes really increased that much?


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

mrvhappy said:


> Hi Mikerp,
> 
> Thanks for your comments
> 
> You seem to miss my points.


No I haven't you seem to not be able to come grips with reality



mrvhappy said:


> I am looking at transport/commuter bikes.
> 
> The Walmart level of bikes and Trex for example..the quality & sales price difference is huge, but the manufacturing cost is these bikes is <10% difference.



There is a lot more to pricing than just manufacturing, Walmart sells a ton of products, a shop that carries a brand like Trek is specialized and has it's own overhead. One goes to said shop to buy a specific item it is not a "big box store".




mrvhappy said:


> The Carbon/Alloy issue is handled by companies that make these products. These services are sub contacted out..in the same way that Ford doesn't produce 100% of all the components that go into its cars.


You really don't have clue into how a carbon frame is manufactured. I suggest you look into this a bit. IE take a look at how Time manufactures a frame, open molds, bladder vs foam forming, etc.
If you want a cheap frame source one from one of the vendors, plenty of folks are doing it, are they are one for one?



mrvhappy said:


> UK and India are not tax happy Socialist society's. India's tax system is similar to that of the USA which is very different to the UK. Neither countries are Socialist!! Supply & Demand doesn't come into it. Its what the consumer is willing to pay!!


Your comment was in regards to you shopping for a bike in the UK.
If you don't want to define it as a social state, let's call it a welfare state.
Supply and Demand = what the consumer is willing to pay go back to Eco 101



mrvhappy said:


> "This is a fact of life and marketing, the fix is buy the cheaper parts."
> 
> - Only if you are willing to accept what Marketing does!!.. As previously stated, the price differential between cheap/expensive parts is minimum...less than 10% in cost. There is a myth that you pay for what you get. This simply is not true!! Quality doesnt have to be expensive!!


I have acquaintances in various industries that have set up shop in China in a attempt to manufacture products in the end the following statement is always made.
If I want to keep manufacturing quality at a consistent level I have to keep a man there at all times overseeing things if not things begin to slip and corners are cut.




mrvhappy said:


> He worked from home. He didn't have any failures as he was broke..so he made things work out of spare parts hence my comment on "necessity being the mother of ..".!!.


Again what are the costs of his home, power, tools, and time. The true cost is all the overhead. Who covered his healthcare?



mrvhappy said:


> Due to govt regulations" This is not the case in the UK...its all about cost & cheap labour & max profits.
> There is no Govt regulations forcing a UK/EEC company to produce goods in The Far East.


All in all labor costs are the same, the added manufacturing regulations drive the higher costs. No one is forcing anyone to produce overseas, it's often much more economical due to govt regulation on manufacturing.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

mrvhappy said:


> - Only if you are willing to accept what Marketing does!!.. As previously stated, the price differential between cheap/expensive parts is minimum...less than 10% in cost. There is a myth that you pay for what you get. This simply is not true!! Quality doesn't have to be expensive!!


While quality doesn't have to be expensive, quality always costs either time, money, effort or most often all three. As has been stated before by others, reasonable functionality can be had for a modest price, but the cost will rise as you move from pure functionality towards performance and low weight. Are some of the costs artificially high? Yes, they are since manufacturers are in business to make money, but you do have choices for every part of a bike. Chinese carbon frames sell for half or less than the original designer companies sell them for (with slight differences), and if you checkout sites like Aliexpress, Ebay, Amazon to name three, you can find every part for a bike (new and/or used) at any price point you can name. Will they all be the top of the line parts? Of course not, and anybody who expects otherwise is deluded.








Originally Posted by *mrvhappy*  
If Graeme Obree can build a bike that can break a world record.... from broken washing machine spares....& only to be penalized by "regulations"....(funded by the bicycle industry?)..well it makes you think doesn't it?....hopefully.....

With all respect to Mr Graeme Obree, he is the exception not the rule. While he built his bike with little to no money, I promise you he did make up for the deficit with prodigious amounts of both time and effort. Using that analogy is like saying that air travel should cost far less since the Wright Bro's built their airplanes with wood and bike parts. What you are paying for isn't just the steel, aluminum, and carbon fiber, but the time and effort to design the frame and each and every part, as well as each level of refinement along the way to get to that point of that bikes development.

I'll state it again for effect; While price doesn't guarantee quality, quality will always cost in either money, time, effort, or most often all three.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

junior1210 said:


> With all respect to Mr Graeme Obree, he is the exception not the rule. While he built his bike with little to no money, I promise you he did make up for the deficit with prodigious amounts of both time and effort.


Thus... his bike was VERY VERY expensive. If you really priced it out in terms of materials and labor it's probably 10x the cost.
Also to be clear... it was a track bike. No shifters. No deraillers. No brakes. No brake levers. I'd love to see someone make those from washing machine parts.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

tlg said:


> Thus... his bike was VERY VERY expensive. If you really priced it out in terms of materials and labor it's probably 10x the cost.
> Also to be clear... it was a track bike. No shifters. No deraillers. No brakes. No brake levers. I'd love to see someone make those from washing machine parts.


Also consider that bike was a 1 off, he didn't have to figure out the logistics of producing several hundred a year, of various sizes, and put a several year guarantee on it as well. No market research into colors, decals, and writing fonts. No cross company contracts for wheels and tires. He didn't have to set up or maintain a dealer network, or organize a system for replacement parts, or any of the myriad of details that go into running a business beyond producing one single bike (albeit one heck of a bike).


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## Dave2k (Jul 31, 2013)

And I think we want to pay too much for the bikes. Just look at how crazy we go everytime a new component comes out. 

Give me back my 9-speed Dura Ace. 

Not saying the new stuff is wrong, but it sure does feed the frenzy.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

mikerp said:


> I'll challenge your argument.
> In 1981 I built a steel frame columbus tubing (house brand), SR/NV Campy, Cinelli, Mavic bike for $1500.
> Per the inflation calculator that is $4250 today
> Inflation Calculator- from InflationData.com
> ...


You can disagree, no big deal but did you type in 1984? No, you didn't, the results are a bit different. $1500 input with 84 year has a $3,371 outcome for 2013. And you didn't mention which Campy model line you got. I did forget to mention after reading yours I too upgraded my headset to Cane Creek 110. 

Anyway one is forced to go from high end to mid level to maintain inflation rates from 30 years ago.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

What everyone is failing to mention is that middle class pay is not keeping up with the cost of goods. Many reports is that the middle class is being forced out of many recreational freedoms. Anyone played golf lately, how about going to the lake, Bowling, or the movies. 

Who here owns a horse? Cost of horse flesh has gone down because no one can afford to feed a horse these days. Inflation per the Govmt (ha ha) is at 2.5% (ha ha again). I say this... and have done this... quit golf, bowling, boating, the movies, and owning a horse. I hike for free, plus I bought a $38 1993 Cannondale R700 and put used parts on it and bike for free. 

Many of you who can afford a $3500 bike that's cool... you have done well but your dollars are getting eaten up fast when you buy new and high dollar. That's cool because one of you guys will sell it for cheap and I'll buy it 4th hand and get a great bike. Of course I have one now so why do I need another one? Don't. 

I'd like to be boating, golfing, going to the movies, and bowling more but hey been there done that.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Agent319 said:


> What everyone is failing to mention is that middle class pay is not keeping up with the cost of goods. Many reports is that the middle class is being forced out of many recreational freedoms. Anyone played golf lately, how about going to the lake, Bowling, or the movies.
> 
> Many of you who can afford a $3500 bike that's cool... you have done well but your dollars are getting eaten up fast when you buy new and high dollar. That's cool because one of you guys will sell it for cheap and I'll buy it 4th hand and get a great bike. Of course I have one now so why do I need another one? Don't.



This is very true, middle class pay today is lower after inflation then middle class pay was in the 70's, in 73 the average wage was about $9,000 dollars, today the average income would have to be $69,000 to keep up with the buying power of 1973. And on top of that fiasco the median income is falling today! due to few jobs, and the ones that are there are lowering paying then they use to be. 

I never sell my bikes that I bought new, so you won't be buying any of my bikes used unless I die! However I do agree with what your saying in a different way, I never buy cars new, I wait at least 8 years then find a low mileage vehicle thanks to the internet way of shopping.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

froze said:


> You can disagree, no big deal but did you type in 1984? No, you didn't, the results are a bit different. $1500 input with 84 year has a $3,371 outcome for 2013. And you didn't mention which Campy model line you got. I did forget to mention after reading yours I too upgraded my headset to Cane Creek 110.
> 
> Anyway one is forced to go from high end to mid level to maintain inflation rates from 30 years ago.


In 81 it was a mix of Nuevo/Super Record back at that time differences between components were less than now. Holes drilled out, and a Titanium bit. Folks would buy NR and drill it out in machine shop.

For this year I sourced from the US an Athena 11, I could have sourced a Chorus group from Europe for close the same price and stayed in the box.

My main point, top of the line is not top of the line at this point, there is a higher tier now than was available previously. The same holds with cars, the offerings that we had in the early 80's in cars isn't what is being offered now, the top end car is much more decked out, so it's no an apples to oranges $$ comparison.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Off course non utilitarian bike stuff is expensive relative to something with similar production costs but not generally purchased with discretionary income. A certain bike part may cost the same to make as a certain lawnmover part but they are sold to a different market, one willing to pay more.

Is there another recreational activity where the stuff isn't expensive compared to what it cost to make? 
How much can it cost to make a Ping driver that goes for $400? High End hockey skates were pushing $400 when I stopped playing a few years ago. They are like $700 now. 
Running? Those shoes can't cost much more than $10 to make.......but it's recreational activity and they charge what people are willing to pay. 

I don't think the OP said exactly what he intended to say but I do agree if the point is simply that bike stuff in expensive. But no kidding......that's not exactly uncovering Watergate. I think everyone already knows that and knows why.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Off course non utilitarian bike stuff is expensive relative to something with similar production costs but not generally purchased with discretionary income. A certain bike part may cost the same to make as a certain lawnmover part but they are sold to a different market, one willing to pay more.
> 
> Is there another recreational activity where the stuff isn't expensive compared to what it cost to make?
> How much can it cost to make a Ping driver that goes for $400? High End hockey skates were pushing $400 when I stopped playing a few years ago. They are like $700 now.
> ...


This is true. However bilking people because they have a hobby is nuts. And by the way those running shoes cost between $0.99 to $3.00 to make depending on quality, add on top of that shipping charges and import taxes of about $4 to $6 each. A few of the higher tech shoes when they first come out could reach a max of $20 to make due to R&D but subsequent years of manufacturing of the same tech design drops the manufacture cost quickly and significantly. But then we have to add in advertising, distribution, warehousing, administration, and sales which is pretty much consistent with top model lines of an additional $20 max (lower models don't get advertised). Then the next set of cost factors is the shoe store which is about $35 depending again if it's a top line or bottom line shoe. Average $110 to $120 pair of running shoes cost once their on the market runs about $55 total, so the rest is incidental expenses and profit to both the shoe store and the brand company. Of course shoes do go on sale but still if you buy a pair of $120 shoes and pay $80 no one is crying they lost money on the shoe.


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

froze said:


> This is true. However bilking people because they have a hobby is nuts. And by the way those running shoes cost between $0.99 to $3.00 to make depending on quality, add on top of that shipping charges and import taxes of about $4 to $6 each. A few of the higher tech shoes when they first come out could reach a max of $20 to make due to R&D but subsequent years of manufacturing of the same tech design drops the manufacture cost quickly and significantly. But then we have to add in advertising, distribution, warehousing, administration, and sales which is pretty much consistent with top model lines of an additional $20 max (lower models don't get advertised). Then the next set of cost factors is the shoe store which is about $35 depending again if it's a top line or bottom line shoe. Average $110 to $120 pair of running shoes cost once their on the market runs about $55 total, so the rest is incidental expenses and profit to both the shoe store and the brand company. Of course shoes do go on sale but still if you buy a pair of $120 shoes and pay $80 no one is crying they lost money on the shoe.


Geez, here come another 50 or 60 - not likes to my reputation here.

Simply figuring the production cost of the shoes or bike to produce and ship ignores the cost of the local shop which pays rent, pays employees, pays taxes, pays utilities and for some advertising. I know that when I worked in a bike shop years ago if the cost of products had dropped say 15% we would not have dropped our prices that much if at all because it was so hard to clear a profit anyway. 

How much is is it worth to you to go to a shop and they have the part in stock waiting for you to buy it? This is true of whether you buy in a store or on the Internet. Part of what you pay is the cost of keeping something in inventory and the convenience is actually worth quite a bit.

That doesn't mean that corporations are guiltless when it comes to price setting.

One of the reasons I hate Shimano is that they price their components to compete with Campagnolo despite the fact that Campy pays higher European wages while Shimano builds stuff in China and Malaysia. The Shimano profit margin would appear to me to be simply huge. The only saving grace of that is that it probably lets Campagnolo stay in business since they do not want to move their plant to the far East. I honestly don't know how Campagnolo competes as well as they do given they huge disparity in labor, tax and business cost they have.

But consumers can be as bad.

How much of a shoe cost is insurance for when Johnny Marathoner wannabe blows out a knee from improper training and then sues Converse or Reebok for it? Or the insurance for the store when Sally Clutzson trips over a display?

Why did my new bike have to come with lawyer-lips on the front fork negating the QR on the axle? It isn't because a QR is unsafe if used properly but because ignorant riders who in at least one case disregarded or ignored the proper operating instructions did not use the QR properly and sued the bike makers over a product that was not defective and safe if used right.

Greed and avarice is a two way street

Expectations about the quality of products also plays a part.
One only need look at these boards and see the posters screaming about how nobody can possibly race and expect to win on anything less than the latest and greatest better than the pro's use to see that it is as much the people buying bikes as the companies producing the bikes that drives the cost. Expectations and laziness of consumers and riders is as much to blame, at least to me as the manufacturers. Everyone wants an edge; nobody wants to train. If you point out there is almost no science behind some of the claims of stiffer, lighter, newer equals faster of if there is those claims are problematic when taken out of a lab and used in real conditions they simply call you names 

There is also, or so it appears to me a bling factor involved. If, for example, Microshift was able to produce a great, well designed drive train group for a bike that worked as well as Dura Ace Di2 but cost only $100.00 a significant number of riders would not buy it simply because it did not cost enough to give them bragging rights or as in my case brand loyalty to Campagnolo. 

I think you see this in the original posters comment about what constitutes a decent bike to commute on. I get snickers about my utility bike which I have less that $350. invested in all the time.

What is funny is that even the opposite of this is still sort of a market driven deal. You can buy a nice low tech bike from Surly, or Gunnar or Velo Orange, or Soma or Rivendell but they don't really cost significantly less than a generic carbon-fiber-testosterone enhanced-mine is longer than yours racing bike. Sometimes they cost more; even with retro parts.

So why are there not more affordable bikes in the UK and US?
1. Companies push the higher profit margin machines and there is nothing wrong with that
2. Consumers want a certain level of quality in their ride and there is nothing wrong with that
3. Taxes and business cost (Especially the VAT tax in the UK which is completely hidden and extremely regressive) make it difficult to charge less and there is something wrong with that
4. A bling factor for the riders and this is regrettable though somewhat understandable but there is something wrong with that.
5. Over pricing on the part of companies and this is regrettable but hey it isn't just bike parts but I think that is less of an issue than people think but there is something wrong with that


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

No hates from me, besides I have my share too!

Actually my figures include ALL the extras you listed, rent etc, I just didn't want to spend time typing a bunch more stuff.

You did touch on a problem that most people don't realize, but all this modern and expensive cycling equipment, nutrition, training technology, etc has only yielded an imaginary 3 to 4 mph average speed gain on the TDF since 1962! Did anyone catch the word imaginary? Why did I say that? Because since 1962 the TDF has shrunk by 500 miles and the climbs have gotten less extreme especially after the late 70's, so those 3 to 4 mph gains is all related to those two things. In fact, I bet that if Jacques Anquetil, the winner of the 62 TDF, was teletransported from 1962 to 2013 and could only race his equipment I would bet he would win. Just saying. I think the racers of old trained harder than those of today, and all the millions being spent on modern high tech equipment, smarter expensive training like wind tunnel training isn't worth the spit the rider expels. 

See this chart to learn more about our deceptions of the sport: racing - Why aren't Tour de France riders going any faster? - Bicycles Stack Exchange


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

froze said:


> No hates from me, besides I have my share too!
> 
> Actually my figures include ALL the extras you listed, rent etc, I just didn't want to spend time typing a bunch more stuff.
> 
> ...


Thank you. 
I am glad I am not the only one that realizes how little correlation there is between equipment and performance. But that is, I think a main reason that you don't see more affordable bikes.

That does not mean I want to use a 4 speed freewheel and lever actuated derailleur.

Newer parts do work better - most of the time - and newer materials have improved cycling from a comfort and injury avoidance perspective but there is very little if any benefit to the vast majority of cyclist from a 14 pound bike over a 21 pound bike or of one with electronic shifting.

I forgot to say that when I worked at a bike shop if we sold a Centurion for $275.00 the shop made about $75.00 profit. If we sold a Huffy for $49.00 dollars we'd have made maybe $15 profit. That meant the shop had a $60 incentive to convince customers to pay more. Even if we wanted to sell a cheaper bike there was simply no way we could have given other cost because we could not make the difference up in volume.

As an aside, I no longer live in the Continental US but was back for a visit a couple of years ago. I made a large organized disease ride using the 1978 De Rosa I retrieved from my parents barn after replacing the tires, cables and bar tape and greasing hubs, headset and BB. It is so much fun to have a 20 something year-old rider express amazement that I was keeping up with them on such an obviously inferior old bike.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Fai Mao said:


> Thank you.
> I am glad I am not the only one that realizes how little correlation there is between equipment and performance. But that is, I think a main reason that you don't see more affordable bikes.
> 
> That does not mean I want to use a 4 speed freewheel and lever actuated derailleur.
> ...


I think there is a false dichotomy being pushed on all of us that lighter bikes will make us faster, lighter shoes will make us faster, expensive nutrition will make us faster; it's aimed mostly at aging baby boomers which we are trying to relive our youth because we were faster than we are now! Add on top of that baby boomers with dual incomes have more disposable income.

There is no way I would go back to 4 speed stuff either, but while I may not want to go back that far my 1984 7 speed Suntour Superbe friction system shifts about as good as my newer integrated shifters! In fact the SIS system that came out after the friction I think works better than newer stuff! And newer parts don't last as long as the older stuff plus cost a lot more to replace. I have over 160,000 miles on my Superbe group...there is no way any modern group will last that long in it's entirety, front derailleurs, hubs and headsets may last that long but the rest nope.

Todays bike shops do make more money then the shops did 30 years ago despite whatever damage the internet has done...which has been little.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

froze said:


> You did touch on a problem that most people don't realize, but all this modern and expensive cycling equipment, nutrition, training technology, etc has only yielded an imaginary 3 to 4 mph average speed gain on the TDF since 1962! Did anyone catch the word imaginary? Why did I say that? Because since 1962 the TDF has shrunk by 500 miles and the climbs have gotten less extreme especially after the late 70's, so those 3 to 4 mph gains is all related to those two things.
> See this chart to learn more about our deceptions of the sport: racing - Why aren't Tour de France riders going any faster? - Bicycles Stack Exchange


Yup. You'd think with all those fancy gears, they'd have more hills.
Here's the chart I've been keeping. I only go back to 1960. But it includes both speed and distance. Quite ironic how the length and speed are directly inverse. Even with the Lance years, the average speed over 50yrs has increased 2.5mph.

View attachment 285114


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

To the OP:

I get your point. $5K for a bike seems ridiculous when you think you can get an OK used car for that price. Think about a couple sticks of carbon, a bit of metal and wire as compared to a car motor, 4 seats, a metal frame around it all. Or even $2K will get you a used motor cycle. Somebody must be making huge profits somewhere along the line in the bike business. 

Even if you look at a brand new car for $20K. There are a lot more materials that go into a car than a $5K bike, before even considering the cost of labour to manufacture that car and the cost of transporting it. Not sure who is raking in the dough, but I don't think it's the LBS. 

As for the cost of bikes in the UK versus the USA, you should try buying one in Canada .


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

froze said:


> This is true. However bilking people because they have a hobby is nuts. And by the way those running shoes cost between $0.99 to $3.00 to make depending on quality, add on top of that shipping charges and import taxes of about $4 to $6 each. A few of the higher tech shoes when they first come out could reach a max of $20 to make due to R&D but subsequent years of manufacturing of the same tech design drops the manufacture cost quickly and significantly. But then we have to add in *advertising*, distribution, warehousing, administration, and sales which is pretty much consistent with top model lines of an additional $20 max (lower models don't get advertised). Then the next set of cost factors is the shoe store which is about $35 depending again if it's a top line or bottom line shoe. Average $110 to $120 pair of running shoes cost once their on the market runs about $55 total, so the rest is incidental expenses and profit to both the shoe store and the brand company. Of course shoes do go on sale but still if you buy a pair of $120 shoes and pay $80 no one is crying they lost money on the shoe.


yes agreed generally but just to be pedantic: Not in terms of accounting practice but in the context of this discussion I don't think advertising should be considered a 'cost'. Yes, it costs money. But no company is going to spend a $1 on advertising unless they are pretty sure it results in over $1 in return.
Same with sponsorship. Generally that's not charity but a calculated way to get return on investment.
Not that it always works out that way but the plan is generally for advertising to pay for it self plus a profit.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Fai Mao said:


> Geez, here come another 50 or 60 - not likes to my reputation here.


Nope, I'm liking your response. At least two of us understand the actual costs for putting something on a shelf.:thumbsup:


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

love4himies said:


> To the OP:
> 
> I get your point. $5K for a bike seems ridiculous when you think you can get an OK used car for that price. Think about a couple sticks of carbon, a bit of metal and wire as compared to a car motor, 4 seats, a metal frame around it all. Or even $2K will get you a used motor cycle. Somebody must be making huge profits somewhere along the line in the bike business.


 So if there's such huge profits, and bikes are such simple devices, someone should be able to come in, undercut prices and sell cheaper quality bikes. So why doesn't it happen? 
If bike companies are making 50% profits, then someone should be able to sell bikes at 20% profit and outsell them. 



> Even if you look at a brand new car for $20K. There are a lot more materials that go into a car than a $5K bike,


Why does a Chevy Malibu cost $22k and a Lexus cost $40k? The same amount of materials go into both.
Why does a Harley Davidson cost $18k? It has less materials than a car.
Why does a Bulgari watch cost $7k? They're so small.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

Here is what I was talking about when I said wages aren't keeping up with the cost of goods or services. The chart below is showing the wages to GDP.

The article is below.

Here's Who's To Blame For America's Zombie Economy - DailyFinance

I'm not a believer in one of the authors point; that Gov spending is down. I don't like Gov spending because for Gov to spend they have to take my money.

View attachment 285121


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> Yup. You'd think with all those fancy gears, they'd have more hills.
> Here's the chart I've been keeping. I only go back to 1960. But it includes both speed and distance. Quite ironic how the length and speed are directly inverse. Even with the Lance years, the average speed over 50yrs has increased 2.5mph.
> 
> View attachment 285114


I don't understand why they just don't run the same damn course? I understand 50 years ago maybe a road became a highway and now they can't but to alter the course year by year so dramatically as your graph reviews is uncalled for. In 1968 they rode 3,000 miles, then in 2002 they rode 2,000 miles, that's a thousand miles difference, then they hale that the average speed increased! What nonsense. They need to stick to the same course as much as possible. 

I wonder if they change the course due to trying to get one team who may be strong on one course, find their weaknesses, and then the next year throw in course that exposes those weaknesses so they lose?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Agent319 said:


> Here is what I was talking about when I said wages aren't keeping up with the cost of goods or services. The chart below is showing the wages to GDP.
> 
> The article is below.
> 
> ...


If you notice on that chart something occurred in the 70's that few people recognize, in 1971 Tricky Dick, otherwise known as Nixon, took us off the gold standard and put us on a fiat currency, this is why we haven't kept up with inflation and buying power. And the history of fiat currency is a short lived history, the average is 27 years but the US economy is huge so just on the sheer strength of that we've lasted longer. However the government hawks know we are (literally) living on borrowed time, and it's just a matter of another 10 to 20 years tops when things will go really bad. And since the whole world is on a fiat currency these too will collapse then the world has to decide, retool the currency and start over, or have a huge war to settle matters. Knowing the human race the last scenario is more likely.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

froze said:


> I don't understand why they just don't run the same damn course? I understand 50 years ago maybe a road became a highway and now they can't but to alter the course year by year so dramatically as your graph reviews is uncalled for. In 1968 they rode 3,000 miles, then in 2002 they rode 2,000 miles, that's a thousand miles difference, then they hale that the average speed increased! What nonsense. They need to stick to the same course as much as possible.
> 
> I wonder if they change the course due to trying to get one team who may be strong on one course, find their weaknesses, and then the next year throw in course that exposes those weaknesses so they lose?


I think it has to do with the fans/public. It's kinda cool to have the course go through different towns / villages each year. Afterall, it is a Tour of France. If it's the same route each year it might lose some interest after a while. I don't think it'd be possible to get all the cool mountain stages into one year either.

But I do agree, they should pick a distance and stick to it. 3,000mi +/- 200.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> I think it has to do with the fans/public. It's kinda cool to have the course go through different towns / villages each year. Afterall, it is a Tour of France. If it's the same route each year it might lose some interest after a while. I don't think it'd be possible to get all the cool mountain stages into one year either.
> 
> But I do agree, they should pick a distance and stick to it. 3,000mi +/- 200.


Ok, that may make some sense. But then like you said, pick a distance and stick to it, but on top of that make sure the number/distance/steepness of climbs is close to same...plus or minus 1% over the course of an entire race.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

froze said:


> If you notice on that chart something occurred in the 70's that few people recognize, in 1971 Tricky Dick, otherwise known as Nixon, took us off the gold standard and put us on a fiat currency, this is why we haven't kept up with inflation and buying power. And the history of fiat currency is a short lived history, the average is 27 years but the US economy is huge so just on the sheer strength of that we've lasted longer. However the government hawks know we are (literally) living on borrowed time, and it's just a matter of another 10 to 20 years tops when things will go really bad. And since the whole world is on a fiat currency these too will collapse then the world has to decide, retool the currency and start over, or have a huge war to settle matters. Knowing the human race the last scenario is more likely.


Always the optimist!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

DrSmile said:


> Always the optimist!


  I'm optimistic about a lot things, just not the economy, or in the way the governments of this world settle matters.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

So what are we as consumers going to do about all this data that is not stacked in our favor?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Agent319 said:


> So what are we as consumers going to do about all this data that is not stacked in our favor?


We need to buy some more magazines to read about it further... or hire an economist... or just go on an expensive vacation!


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

tlg said:


> So if there's such huge profits, and bikes are such simple devices, someone should be able to come in, undercut prices and sell cheaper quality bikes. So why doesn't it happen?
> If bike companies are making 50% profits, then someone should be able to sell bikes at 20% profit and outsell them.


Good question. Maybe they have an "understanding". I really don't know, but logic does tell you that with the materials that are used in a 10K bike versus a 20K car, the bike companies _should_ be making huge bucks. Or maybe it's because only a few frames are sold at that price and they need a high markup for R&D and to cover fixed costs. 




> Why does a Chevy Malibu cost $22k and a Lexus cost $40k? The same amount of materials go into both.
> Why does a Harley Davidson cost $18k? It has less materials than a car.
> Why does a Bulgari watch cost $7k? They're so small.


The obvious is that Lexus produces a much higher quality car with better quality components. It is very obvious to anybody driving them the difference between the two, unlike the difference between 2 frames that have the same components on them. Harleys I hate with a passion, so don't understand why anybody would buy one, but hey, each to their own.

Never heard of a Bulgari watch, so I'm figuring I don't shop in the stores that they sell them  Maybe they use gold plated mechanisms and have a diamond on their face???


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

love4himies said:


> Good question. Maybe they have an "understanding".


Doubt it. That's terrible business practice. Good way to become stagnant and put yourself out of business. 



> I really don't know, but logic does tell you that with the materials that are used in a 10K bike versus a 20K car, the bike companies _should_ be making huge bucks. Or maybe it's because only a few frames are sold at that price and they need a high markup for R&D and to cover fixed costs.


Frames are only a portion of the cost. Try making that 20K car 30% lighter and see what it does to the price. 



> The obvious is that Lexus produces a much higher quality car with better quality components.


Kinda like SRAM/Shimano vs Microshift. Logic says Microshift is cheaper, so they should outsell the others. But maybe there's more to it than just being cheap.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

love4himies said:


> Good question. Maybe they have an "understanding". I really don't know, but logic does tell you that with the materials that are used in a 10K bike versus a 20K car, the bike companies _should_ be making huge bucks. Or maybe it's because only a few frames are sold at that price and they need a high markup for R&D and to cover fixed costs.
> 
> The obvious is that Lexus produces a much higher quality car with better quality components. It is very obvious to anybody driving them the difference between the two, unlike the difference between 2 frames that have the same components on them. Harleys I hate with a passion, so don't understand why anybody would buy one, but hey, each to their own.
> 
> Never heard of a Bulgari watch, so I'm figuring I don't shop in the stores that they sell them  Maybe they use gold plated mechanisms and have a diamond on their face???


Bulgari watch? not my type of useless expense, but they are fine watches and the entire watch is made by hand by Swiss artisans, so you have to pay for their artistic abilities much like you would have to pay for a painting done by a famous artist. So essentially you're wearing a piece of art with bragging rights.

Lexus are probably the best cars coming out of Japan, but there are other cars as equally superior which in today's world means from a grade of F to A their a B, no one is making A cars anymore...at least in my opinion. 

Harleys...I agree, is not that I hate them except for the noise, but at one time they were exclusive and special, and few people owned one, now everyone own's one, to me that makes them about the same as owning a Toyota Camry...nothing special anymore. I would rather have Triumph Bonneville T100 something different then the rest of the crowd.

I agree, there is very little material or technology in a $10k bike compared to a 20k car! It is a rip off, but again it's a hobby with discretionary income being spent, and as long as there are people willing to buy those bikes no matter how ridiculas the price is then there will be companies who will make this crap. Fortunately spending $10,000 for a bike is far above average price of a LBS sold bike of $700 which doesn't get you a lot of bike but there are ton of customers buying bikes who just want to take a cruise in the park, more serious riders need more reliable bikes due to far more miles being put on the average of those is about $1,800 with Shimano 105 stuff. I spent more then that due to wanting titanium and due to knowing that my bike I bought in 84 would cost as much as what I spent for my new bike if I was to buy the 84 bike new today due to inflation.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mrvhappy said:


> *Graeme Obree built a bike from an old washing machine & I think he broke the World Record on this bike....what is it they say about" .. necessity being the mother of inventions......."*


Graeme used a bearing (or two) from a washing machine for his BB bearings, that's all. That's a far cry from "built a bike from an old washing machine". Even though most of his current land speed record bike was built in his kitchen from used bike parts and raw tubing. But then I personally know guys (2) who have built bike frames in their basement or garage.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Graeme Obree was robbed of his accomplishments, what a crime, but at least he got into the British Cycling Hall of Fame in 2010, few make it there and yet there he is, no money for being there but he is now recognized. He does think outside the box when it comes to bike design, he also developed recently the prone bike on which he hopes to break the land speed record currently at 82.8 in September of 2013. I hope he does it.


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

DrSmile said:


> We need to buy some more magazines to read about it further... or hire an economist... or just go on an expensive vacation!


Or get up early and make a South Island loop around Guam on the bikes we already own. Well that's what I'm going to do anyway


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

froze said:


> If you notice on that chart something occurred in the 70's that few people recognize, in 1971 Tricky Dick, otherwise known as Nixon, took us off the gold standard and put us on a fiat currency, this is why we haven't kept up with inflation and buying power. And the history of fiat currency is a short lived history, the average is 27 years but the US economy is huge so just on the sheer strength of that we've lasted longer. However the government hawks know we are (literally) living on borrowed time, and it's just a matter of another 10 to 20 years tops when things will go really bad. And since the whole world is on a fiat currency these too will collapse then the world has to decide, retool the currency and start over, or have a huge war to settle matters. Knowing the human race the last scenario is more likely.


Sorry froze but you just failed econ 101. If you actually understand international monetary systems you realize that gold has all the same problems of any other currency base: fluctuating valuation, no intrinsic valuation, conversion drives currency up or down, etc. While you can find all kinds of quacks arguing for gold based currency, they indeed are quacks. Just as you can find "proof" that we never landed on the moon or that evolution is nonsense. No RATIONAL economist supports a return to the gold standard any more than they would suggest converting to BitCoin.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> Sorry froze but you just failed econ 101. If you actually understand international monetary systems you realize that gold has all the same problems of any other currency base: fluctuating valuation, no intrinsic valuation, conversion drives currency up or down, etc. While you can find all kinds of quacks arguing for gold based currency, they indeed are quacks. Just as you can find "proof" that we never landed on the moon or that evolution is nonsense. No RATIONAL economist supports a return to the gold standard any more than they would suggest converting to BitCoin.


Naw, I didn't fail, our world failed when they change off of something of known value to one of no known value other than the good faith of whatever government backing up the bogus currency. In other words under a fiat system, the actions of the government largely determine the value of the currency, and good stewards can and do act to keep their economy stable. These currencies aren't backed by commodities, but rather by the reputations of their governments. The government controls the flow of money into the economy. When prices are dropping too fast (think housing bubble burst, for example), the government can "print" more money, slightly inflating the currency and steadying prices. Conversely, when prices are rising too rapidly, the government can decrease the flow of money, making the currency slightly more valuable and steadying prices again.

Problem is it's now too late to try to switch back to a gold standard as some republicans are trying to discuss because the rest of the world is not on a gold standard thus gold prices could fluctuate wildly which in turn would mean that as price of gold goes up prices of goods would drop, great idea except when the price of gold drops then prices would go back up; add on top of that salaries would have fluctuated accordingly as well but our debts would not! So there would be problems, probably the best choice is a system that would incorporate both a gold standard and a fiat standard.

Read this from Alan Greenspan, it says everything and more that I could say about going back to a gold standard, and the last time I checked he didn't fail Economy 101.

Can The U.S. Return To A Gold Standard? | Gold Eagle

Historically ALL fiat currencies fail, in fact as I mentioned before the average fiat currency based government money lasts an average of 27 years.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

froze said:


> Naw, I didn't fail, our world failed when they change off of something of known value to one of no known value.


Which "known value" are you talking about? The $271 in 2001 or the $1571 in 2011? Or maybe the $615 in 1980? 

Quoting a 15 year old article from Alan Greenspan will not get you much credibility - remember he's the guy who admitted that his entire financial philosophy was based on a false assumption. And your number on the duration of fiat currencies is pretty bogus since "modern" currencies have only been in existence since roughly 1970 in the major developed countries.

Gold bugs are always forecasting the failure of fiat currencies. Religious fanatics are always forecasting the end times.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> Which "known value" are you talking about? The $271 in 2001 or the $1571 in 2011? Or maybe the $615 in 1980?
> 
> Quoting a 15 year old article from Alan Greenspan will not get you much credibility - remember he's the guy who admitted that his entire financial philosophy was based on a false assumption. And your number on the duration of fiat currencies is pretty bogus since "modern" currencies have only been in existence since roughly 1970 in the major developed countries.
> 
> Gold bugs are always forecasting the failure of fiat currencies. Religious fanatics are always forecasting the end times.


Really, you know so much about this stuff? Great. Except for one thing, Fiat currency has been around a far greater time...try the 11th century. You really need to check your facts first before acting like you know something. The rest of the information you said is just as bogus, I'm not going to waste any more of my time with you because you really don't know what your talking about...I will give you the religious fanatical mumbo jumbo to you though.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

mrvhappy said:


> Is it me or does everyone else find the price of bikes & components very expensive?[/B]


It's you. If you find the price of bikes and components very expensive, then you're looking at bikes and components that are priced beyond your affordability.

The fact is, there are bikes and components priced at levels for everyone depending on means.


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## eriku16 (Jul 27, 2011)

It's not just him. The prices ARE getting out of hand. Not only that, the durability and the finishes bikes and components of the past 30yrs, has tanked.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

tlg said:


> Prices aren't really any different.
> 
> UK:
> Specialized allez - Allez Sport - 2013
> ...


Am I right in thinking that the applicable sales taxes are on top of those US prices? In the UK the RRP is inclusive of all taxes.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

mrvhappy said:


> I am in the UK...not USA...I hear that the prices over there are much cheaper.
> A decent road bike here is approx £900 - £1,000.00...
> 
> Specialized allez - Allez Elite - 2013
> ...


If you think that a decent road bike costs £900+, you're living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Any entry level Trek, Specialized or Giant is a decent road bike. 

I started riding seriously in 81. My dream bike then was a TI Raleigh Replica with full Nuovo Record, GP4's & Clement 66's costing £600 at Dentons in Oxford. At 16 it was a pipe-dream, so a secondhand Alan with NR at half that was my lot. 

Scroll forward 25 years and I'm working in cycle retail, and find a full Super Record equipped trade-in at the shop I started working at. It's too big for me but I buy it, strip it and sell the frame. I use the proceeds to get an old Saronni Red Colnago Super, so finally getting that 80's steel uberbike!

The ride was beautiful but disappointed mechanically compared to a 2000's bog-standard Trek! Brakes that "thought" about slowing you, shifting that was vague with a knee shredding 42/21 low etc etc. Not to mention the weight!!! 10KGS was state of the art then!

A properly built £600 road bike from any major manufacturer will be perfectly good for what you are describing. Any more than that is your desire rather than your needs.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> Am I right in thinking that the applicable sales taxes are on top of those US prices? In the UK the RRP is inclusive of all taxes.


It's cheaper to buy certain brands in the UK then in the USA, brands such as Continental and Campy just to name two. When I got my Mercian in 07 Mercian sold me the Campy Athena group for about $500 less than the lowest price I could find in the USA. Wibble and Ribble both sell Conti tires for less then anywhere in the USA. I think, notice those first two words, that it depends on the brand of the product your buying will depend on the break you'll get from a different country, So if Specialize charges a bit more maybe it's due to shipping cost differences? Maybe import taxes are higher? But some companies like Specialized do have price fixing where the pricing will not be much different no matter where you buy it.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

froze said:


> Really, you know so much about this stuff? Great. Except for one thing, Fiat currency has been around a far greater time...try the 11th century. You really need to check your facts first before acting like you know something. The rest of the information you said is just as bogus, I'm not going to waste any more of my time with you because you really don't know what your talking about...I will give you the religious fanatical mumbo jumbo to you though.


And yet froze you are arguing for something that is at best "fringe economics" and is not supported by either the facts nor any main stream economist. The fiat currencies of the 11th century have essentially NOTHING to do with modern global economics and monetary theory or practice. You should read an unbiased list of the advantages and disadvantages of the gold standard: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

I do like to think that reading a lot on the subject, combined with my education does indeed qualify me as "knowing something."


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> I do like to think that reading a lot on the subject, combined with my education does indeed qualify me as "knowing something."


Yeah, I can tell.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Bike prices haven't really changed much in the past 100 years; just our perception of what we actually need. Well, and the whole 'cheap-asses who only buy via the internet' thing...

If you compare a 3 speed from 1960 to a 3 speed today, adjusted for inflation, you'll see that the cost is almost identical. Normal people used to buy functional bicycles... Cruisers for town riding, "touring" bikes for general riding, and race bikes for racing. Now everyone wants a "race" bike that is far above their ability (and income) level. Plus they want it as cheaply as possible. They feel "entitled" to an Ultegra-level bike for the price of a Sora bike.

If people bought the bikes they actually need (the modern equivalent of those "touring" bikes in the 70s - aka: Jamis Satellite, Surly Pacer, Raleigh Clubman), then cycling wouldn't seem so expensive.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Yup, I'm a cheap ass and PROUD OF IT! I did buy my bike on the internet, a Lynskey, saved at least a couple of thousand than trying to buy a TI bike from a LBS which the only one I would have found here would have been a Serrota, which I was able to ride a friends who has one, then later when I got mine we rode each others for comparisons and both of us agree the two are about equal (accept he went with Dura Ace and I went with 105). And I get about 95% of the my cycling needs off the internet saving at the very least 30% off LBS prices in town, with tires I typically save about 50% for the same tire. 

So rub it in some more that I'm a cheap ass because I proud of it...thank you for noticing. I'm also personally debt free too because I am a tightwad, or cheap ass, churl, cheapskate, whatever you want to call me I'm fine with it.


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## goldsbar (Apr 24, 2002)

In 2004 I bought a Specialized Allez Pro with full Dura Ace for $3000; that's $3,700 in today's $s according to the bls website. Basically a cheap but good AL frame (E5 SLX whatever that means) with a carbon fork, bars and seat post.

Is this possible today with a real brand (i.e. real guaranty) from an LBS? I'm thinking no but very curious.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

goldsbar said:


> In 2004 I bought a Specialized Allez Pro with full Dura Ace for $3000; that's $3,700 in today's $s according to the bls website. Basically a cheap but good AL frame (E5 SLX whatever that means) with a carbon fork, bars and seat post.
> 
> Is this possible today with a real brand (i.e. real guaranty) from an LBS? I'm thinking no but very curious.


Is it possible? Yes.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

goldsbar said:


> In 2004 I bought a Specialized Allez Pro with full Dura Ace for $3000; that's $3,700 in today's $s according to the bls website. Basically a cheap but good AL frame (E5 SLX whatever that means) with a carbon fork, bars and seat post.
> 
> Is this possible today with a real brand (i.e. real guaranty) from an LBS? I'm thinking no but very curious.


Odd set of ID info for the frame, SLX use to stand for a old Columbus steel tubeset, so I thought what does SLX in aluminum stand for...nothing I could find, not even on Columbus website, same thing happen when I entered E5, so it must be some sort of rebranded tubeset from China that Specialized put a label on. Trek did that some years ago with Reynolds, Reynolds made a 531c tubeset with slightly thicker butts and then called it 531cs, but in that case the tubeset became so revered that a few other custom builders used some the cs tubes. In this case there is no other reported use of the Specialized tubeset other than Specialized.

Not sure what your second question is asking. Are you wondering if any brand could have a tubeset made and slap whatever label they want and the answer is yes. It would come with a guarantee too. But keep in mind that frame warranties are almost impossible to collect on because frame warranties exclude wear and tear and abuse, and most claims are simply rejected saying the frame wore out to bad so sad. If a guarantee is your primary concern then don't buy a bike from anyone other than Competitive Cyclist, their satisfaction guarantee will replace the bike if you are EVER unsatisfied for any reason whatsoever for the price you paid for the bike for trade in value on any bike they have at the time. No questions asked. It's weird but I asked the service person point blank questions and that's the way is including having an accident and you send the bike back saying you're unsatisfied with it now. Now sure how someone with a clear conscious would send a bike back after an accident so they can get a new one, but he did say that was true.

For the $3,00 you spent you could get a Lynskey Silver Series Peloton (sport geometry), or Breakaway (racing geometry) Titanium bike made in the USA with 105 components for just $2395 direct. Or if you get it through Adrenalin Bikes (ask for Matthew) and you can either order the frame and fork and then pick out from the component packages they offer, or stay with 105 and make some upgrades as you see fit, but regardless they do a pro install for free while Lynsky charges for that. If you go this route I've been down that road with my Lynsky, PM me if you want to know more about changes I had done.


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## cyclintruckin (Feb 10, 2012)

I understand the OP's original point and post with that said, let's look at it this way.... If you spend $2000.00 on a new bike and keep it for let say 5 years (we all know it will last much longer if taken care of) your only talking about $400 a year for transportation, like others have said no fuel, no insurance, no licensing etc done deal. Even though some new bikes and components are quite pricey when considering the longevity of them kinda puts the cost into perspective. I am sure the manufacturers are taking that into equation as well that when a customer purchases a said item weather a bike or components, that they will not be buying another for quite some time. Even though most of us that have been bit by the "bug" are always looking for lighter stronger and faster.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

cyclintruckin said:


> I understand the OP's original point and post with that said, let's look at it this way.... If you spend $2000.00 on a new bike and keep it for let say 5 years (we all know it will last much longer if taken care of) your only talking about $400 a year for transportation, like others have said no fuel, no insurance, no licensing etc done deal. Even though some new bikes and components are quite pricey when considering the longevity of them kinda puts the cost into perspective. I am sure the manufacturers are taking that into equation as well that when a customer purchases a said item weather a bike or components, that they will not be buying another for quite some time. Even though most of us that have been bit by the "bug" are always looking for lighter stronger and faster.


Your math is wrong. It won't be $400 a year, because you have to buy tires, tubes, parts, maintenance, labor, special commuter bike stuff like bags, lights, clothes etc. Add on top of that there will be days you can't ride the bike in due to weather or appointments etc so back comes the car insurance, maintenance, blah blah blah, and gas. But even though the math may be off it's still going to be cheaper then driving a car all the time.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

eriku16 said:


> It's not just him. The prices ARE getting out of hand. Not only that, the durability and the finishes bikes and components of the past 30yrs, has tanked.


Prices are getting out of hand but why? Like all goods price is determined by supply and demand aren't they? The demand must be higher than the supply to drive these costs up. I'm no economist but isn't that Econ 101? 

Or is it that riding bikes, like going to the lake in my boat, has become an upper upper middle class sport. The people going to the lake these days are not middle class Americans like it was in the 70's, 80's and 90's. People buying LBS bikes are not middle class Americans either. Ever spent time in an LBS and see what cars customers drive? It's not a 1998 Chevy!! So with LBS's knowing that those people driving those nice cars want nice expensive items they dress them up and put high quality items on them and mark them up. However those clients are very few and far between (not many of them) and to keep an LBS open it must have buying clients. Go and sit in a parking lot all day and see how many new bikes go out the door? If very few are going out the door the LBS must increase prices to keep the lights on? So when the LBS increases prices his clients (remember are upper upper middle class) don't even twitch. A $2000 bike to someone making $220,000 a year is pocket change to them. Unlike the current middle class they must use their credit card to buy it but they are no longer doing that? The do it yourself-er middle class people like me now goes on Craigslist and will buy a 10 year old or even 20 year old bike and find 5 year old parts and put them on their bike. I will never even sniff a $2,000 bike.

Now before you upper upper middle class start thumping me on the head just remember you are only upper upper middle class and there are many classes above you wondering why you don't own 3.5 million dollar homes, an additional home in Aspen and a lear jet. Just remember there is someone always more affluent than you before you start looking down at me!!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Agent319 said:


> Prices are getting out of hand but why? Like all goods price is determined by supply and demand aren't they? The demand must be higher than the supply to drive these costs up. I'm no economist but isn't that Econ 101?
> 
> Or is it that riding bikes, like going to the lake in my boat, has become an upper upper middle class sport. The people going to the lake these days are not middle class Americans like it was in the 70's, 80's and 90's. People buying LBS bikes are not middle class Americans either. Ever spent time in an LBS and see what cars customers drive? It's not a 1998 Chevy!! So with *LBS's *knowing that those people driving those nice cars want nice expensive items they dress them up and put high quality items on them *and mark them up*. However those clients are very few and far between (not many of them) and to keep an LBS open it must have buying clients. Go and sit in a parking lot all day and see how many new bikes go out the door?* If very few are going out the door the LBS must increase prices to keep the lights on? So when the LBS increases prices his clients (remember are upper upper middle class) don't even twitch.* A $2000 bike to someone making $220,000 a year is pocket change to them. Unlike the current middle class they must use their credit card to buy it but they are no longer doing that? The do it yourself-er middle class people like me now goes on Craigslist and will buy a 10 year old or even 20 year old bike and find 5 year old parts and put them on their bike. I will never even sniff a $2,000 bike.
> 
> Now before you upper upper middle class start thumping me on the head just remember you are only upper upper middle class and there are many classes above you wondering why you don't own 3.5 million dollar homes, an additional home in Aspen and a lear jet. Just remember there is someone always more affluent than you before you start looking down at me!!


You obviously know nothing about the bike industry. Bike shops don't set the prices - bike companies do. We can't just mark stuff up if we want to - well, we could, but we'd be out of business quickly. The majority of bike shops, when confronted with reduced business (like this year, for most shops), stock cheaper products to try to get customers in the store. I only have 2 bikes in the store that are over $2000. Most of the bikes on the floor are hybrids and MTBs. I have 10-15 used bikes in a corner, plus a couple of new road bikes that I built with close-out frames - a Schwinn with Tourney (A070) for $499.99, and a alu/carbon Schwinn with Rival for $1499.99.

We can only sell what we can get. If I could get a decent hybrid that retailed for $200, I'd stock it. I can't. The cheapest hybrid I can get is the Jamis Citizen 1 for $375. If I could, I'd almost stock Huffys just so I could sell some bikes this year. WalMart is doing a brisk business in bikes at the moment. Unfortunately, I can't keep the store open on a profit of $5 per bike.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> You obviously know nothing about the bike industry. Bike shops don't set the prices - bike companies do. We can't just mark stuff up if we want to - well, we could, but we'd be out of business quickly. The majority of bike shops, when confronted with reduced business (like this year, for most shops), stock cheaper products to try to get customers in the store. I only have 2 bikes in the store that are over $2000. Most of the bikes on the floor are hybrids and MTBs. I have 10-15 used bikes in a corner, plus a couple of new road bikes that I built with close-out frames - a Schwinn with Tourney (A070) for $499.99, and a alu/carbon Schwinn with Rival for $1499.99.
> 
> We can only sell what we can get. If I could get a decent hybrid that retailed for $200, I'd stock it. I can't. The cheapest hybrid I can get is the Jamis Citizen 1 for $375. If I could, I'd almost stock Huffys just so I could sell some bikes this year. WalMart is doing a brisk business in bikes at the moment. Unfortunately, I can't keep the store open on a profit of $5 per bike.


No I don't know much about the bike industry, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night!!

I do know this though. You have no sales because you can't attract middle class American buyers into your store because prices are to high. 

If you wanted to attract middle class buyers you would have to compete with Walmart. We all know that ain't going to happen.

So what's your options?;

1). Attract higher end customers - but how? Those customers are few and far between so lets not kid ourselves there. If they have done their research they'll know Tourney and Rival parts are cheap and won't pay $1499.99 but they will buy it with 105 or Ultegra for $900. 

2.) Stock the Specialiazed, Cannondale, Colnago, Richey, Trek, Pinarello and Etc. You are going to have to convince those suppliers that they are going to have to be part of your sales team and have them take the risk just like you. Take a page for Auto sales and do 0% financing for 5 years

3.) Buy the frames from the names above and you put the parts on. You become the assembler because you surely can put the bike together cheaper than the manufacture can. Look at what it costs him to keep one assembler employed (pays his health insurance, pays him $15/hr, pays his workcomp, taxes on him). You can probably cut the cost on assembly by 50%.

I bought my stuff used. So there has to be a market out there but only if it's priced right. I bought a '93 Cannondale 2.8 R700 frame for $38 and put 5 year old Shimano 105 shifter and FD and RD on it, 600 tricolor crank, $100 (pair not each) aero rims and $25 each tires for a total of $325. That my friend is what it will take to sell to the masses. Your high end buyer who never walks in the store won't even think about that bike. But let me tell ya my bike looks sweet and it will sell for $450. You stock 20 of used bikes like that all shined up and they'll sell.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Agent319 said:


> you surely can put the bike together cheaper than the manufacture can. Look at what it costs him to keep one assembler employed (pays his health insurance, pays him $15/hr, pays his workcomp, taxes on him). You can probably cut the cost on assembly by 50%


If you think any LBS can undercut labour prices in Taiwan or China you are insane.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> If you think any LBS can undercut labour prices in Taiwan or China you are insane.


I think he was saying the owner can do it cheaper because he wouldn't pay himself anything. 
That's just as insane if not more so .....aside from the obvious reasons the bike shop would never get the volume discount on group sets and other parts that bike makers do so there's not way he or she could make the bike cheaper even if labor was free.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> If you think any LBS can undercut labour prices in Taiwan or China you are insane.


On a mass scale no. But what is the "owner" of the LBS costing his business when he is idle!! All "owners" are idle at some point. So why not put a bike together. Put together 1 or 2 bikes a week or as needed and charge less.


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

Seems like LBSs make money roughly the same way car dealerships do: used cars/bikes, and service. Perhaps LBSs can add clothing to that list as well. I believe PlatyPius has indicated in the past that there is little profit to be had on the sale of a new bike (much like a car that you negotiate competently for), especially low/middle-end. An LBS that relies on the "next big thing" in new bikes seems unlikely to survive.

In my (limited) experience, the LBSs near me doing the best are the ones who stress service and who make themselves known in the community. They offer free "bicycle checks" and free simple repairs (cost of parts only) at local rides to get their name out there. They offer modest discounts to local bike clubs on service and clothing. They might sponsor a local club or two ("dues this year only $X thanks to the generosity of Bob's LBS"). Most important, when a customer does enter the store, they make sure he/she is served by pleasant, competent help; that's something no big box store can match.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Agent319 said:


> On a mass scale no. But what is the "owner" of the LBS costing his business when he is idle!! All "owners" are idle at some point. So why not put a bike together. Put together 1 or 2 bikes a week or as needed and charge less.


Because building a bike (from the frame, versus assembling a new bike) costs almost twice as much as just buying the same bike from a bike company. A Shimano Sora front derailleur might cost me $16.99 wholesale (it does). It most likely costs Trek $5.00. This has been brought up before in regard to bike prices.... why are Rival bikes more than 105 bikes? Because Shimano subsidizes the cost to get their crap on every bike on the planet. SRAM doesn't/can't do that. Anyway... to build up a bike that retails for $1500 would result in the store making anywhere from $-200 to $100. Normally the store would make around $300-$400 on a $1500 retail bike.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

bike981 said:


> Seems like LBSs make money roughly the same way car dealerships do: used cars/bikes, and service. Perhaps LBSs can add clothing to that list as well. I believe PlatyPius has indicated in the past that there is little profit to be had on the sale of a new bike (much like a car that you negotiate competently for), especially low/middle-end. An LBS that relies on the "next big thing" in new bikes seems unlikely to survive.
> 
> .


Maybe, but facts are facts, LBS's are making more money, and by money I mean profit, than ever. See: Industry Overview 2012 - National Bicycle Dealers Association 

I don't begrudge LBS's for making larger profits, I'm a pro business man, I use to own a business, I know people who own businesses, and I fully support that a business needs to and should make whatever profit the market will bear. So I'm in no way going to come against any business owner of a bike shop, like Platypus, that he has no right to make a profit since he is a for profit business and not a non profit business. 

But Platypus and other business owners must know and accept that there is competition and that competition is designed to also make a profit that could potentially take (it is not stealing) business away from their business. That's why I chose to do business with online companies because their less expensive with at least as good of customer service and most of the time better than retail stores.

Example, I went to an LBS in town and tried on some shoes, I bought a pair of $100 Mavic touring shoes, they ended up hurting my feet after about 35 miles, I took them back and they refused to refund my money or exchange for another pair because I used them. I called other LBS's in town to see if that was their policy and it was, so I called Performance Bike and asked them and they said no that was NOT their policy, simply send the shoes back for a full refund or exchange. Needless to say I bought my second pair of shoes from Performance for less then the LBS's in town and if they don't work I send them back and try another pair. Sorry, but I'll be damn if I'm going to spend $100 or more for something that doesn't work and be told I'm tough out of luck, so guess what? LBS's in my town are now tough out of luck too as far as I'm concerned because I will buy very little from them.

So until LBS's and other retailers get their act together they will continue to lose business to online stores who offer better service.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

I kinda agree with you Froze, but I can see the other side as well. From the shop's point of view, once you took the product out of the shop, they don't know what you did with those shoes. They don't know if you wore them, competed in a race with them, went barefoot in them after contracting the Ebola version of athlete's foot (Doesn't exist....I hope), or whatever so they don't want them back. They figure that you are a informed, experienced, adult shopper so if you bought that product, that's what you wanted.

On the other hand, I shop the same way you do, that is to say mostly online. Just like Performance, many other sites have similar return/exchange policies, and make it very attractive to stick with them. When you factor in the lower prices it seems like a no-brainer, except that being able to walk in to a shop and pick up the product, get a feel for it, and take it home after paying for it will always be an attraction as well. I'll admit I've bought one product over another, even though it was a 'lesser' product by the numbers just because I liked the feel of it. You can't do that shopping online. Between handling the product, and the convenience of having it right here, right now justifies the mark up to a small degree.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> Maybe, but facts are facts, LBS's are making more money, and by money I mean profit, than ever. See: Industry Overview 2012 - National Bicycle Dealers Association
> 
> I don't begrudge LBS's for making larger profits, I'm a pro business man, I use to own a business, I know people who own businesses, and I fully support that a business needs to and should make whatever profit the market will bear. So I'm in no way going to come against any business owner of a bike shop, like Platypus, that he has no right to make a profit since he is a for profit business and not a non profit business.
> 
> ...


Are you mad? Bike shops are hurting bad this year. Every shop owner I'm in contact with is seeing gross income 25-60% lower than last year, and last year was below normal. The highest-paid shop owner I know makes $45,000/year. Most (around Indiana) make $0-$25,000. This obviously doesn't include BGI - Indiana's largest bike shop.

As for the shoes... Most shops wouldn't take them back. Too many people "borrow" things like bikes, shoes, and trunk racks by buying them and then returning them. Online retailers (and WalMart) have services who buy all of their returned crap and sell it. Local shops can't do that, or take the financial hit.


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## goldsbar (Apr 24, 2002)

froze said:


> But keep in mind that frame warranties are almost impossible to collect on because frame warranties exclude wear and tear and abuse, and most claims are simply rejected saying the frame wore out to bad so sad.


I have to agree with you on this one. I'm in the middle of getting a crash replacement "deal" on a MTB frame from a semi-major marketer (all made in China) and it's certainly not a hassle free experience. The warranty was really short anyway. On the other hand, Giant went out of there way to hook me up almost 20 years ago when I busted a carbon seat stay on a rock (another MTB). Seems to vary!


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

goldsbar said:


> I have to agree with you on this one. I'm in the middle of getting a crash replacement "deal" on a MTB frame from a semi-major marketer (all made in China) and it's certainly not a hassle free experience. The warranty was really short anyway. On the other hand, Giant went out of there way to hook me up almost 20 years ago when I busted a carbon seat stay on a rock (another MTB). Seems to vary!


This is inaccurate.

20 years ago warranties were generally longer and more accommodating to the end consumer. There was more trust placed in the consumer. Manufacturers effectively trusted their customers to not claim under the warranty unless it actually was warranted. The other thing that has changed massively is that frames & componentry has got increasingly lightweight without a corresponding price rise. I'm not talking about top end kit, just regular mid level stuff. 

Much of the "warranty" claim stuff I see day to day is not warranty. It is either misuse, crash damage or fair wear and tear.

Certainly in the UK warranty is against "faulty materials or faulty manufacturing". Products like that generally get weeded out pretty quickly by retailers. We don't want the hassle of dealing with crappy products no matter who makes them.

A manufacturer will take into account the condition of the part too. Buying anything enters you into a contract, the terms of the warranty require you to maintain the part properly. So if it breaks on your ride to work but you never clean, service or lube it you're potentially SOL. Equally, if you use a pair of Mavic Cosmic Carbone Ultimates to commute on and the rims wear out in a couple of years, SOL again!

I've had customers try to warranty Open Corsa CX's for wearing out in less than a year. They're a race tyre good for perhaps 4000km or so on the rear. That's less than 6 month's use if you're riding most weekends.

If an item is faulty then it should be covered and any manufacturer worth their salt should back it up. But just because it fails does not make it faulty.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> Maybe, but facts are facts, LBS's are making more money, and by money I mean profit, than ever. See: Industry Overview 2012 - National Bicycle Dealers Association
> 
> I don't begrudge LBS's for making larger profits, I'm a pro business man, I use to own a business, I know people who own businesses, and I fully support that a business needs to and should make whatever profit the market will bear. So I'm in no way going to come against any business owner of a bike shop, like Platypus, that he has no right to make a profit since he is a for profit business and not a non profit business.
> 
> ...


I had to address this one again...

There have been many studies on the "State of the Industry", as they call it.
One issue is that the newer generations are smaller than the previous ones. Baby Boomers and GenX supported the bike industry for years. Now those people are getting too old to ride, dying, going broke, etc. That leaves us with the newer generations. Unfortunately, those groups are not only smaller, they also don't give much of a crap about bikes. They'd rather sit at their xBox for 23 hours a day.

There is a move toward walking, cycling, and using buses rather than driving. Car ownership is declining among 16-20 year olds. However, they tend to buy inexpensive commuter bikes AND, you'll remember, there are fewer of them. That leads us to....

Road bike sales are tanking while 29er, hybrid, and commuter bike sales are increasing. The actual number of bikes sold hasn't changed much in a long time (until this year), *but the $ amount spent per bike has*. If one looks only at volume, sure...the bike industry is doing great. If you look at revenue though, you'll see that this year has been really, really hard on local shops. People say things like "Price competitively! Match online store prices!" Ummm....no. Online stores may only make $1 on a seatbag, but they're selling 10,000 of them. An average bike shop may sell 100 of them a year. Is it even worth it for a store to carry a product that will make them $100/year? My yearly operating expenses are around $85,000 (not including a paycheck for me). How many products would I have to carry at $100/year profit to make it? 

The average hybrid brings in $80-$200 of gross profit per bike (before expenses i.e. shipping, employee costs for assembly, etc.) The average road bike (average depends on where you live) brings in $300-$1000-ish per bike. Is it any wonder that shops would rather sell road bikes? We have to sell a LOT of hybrids to make any money at all. And, of course, people who buy hybrids are the worst about "negotiating" the price - at least around here. On a Jamis Citizen 1, I make $60 after expenses are figured in. Every single person who has bought a Citizen 1 has tried to negotiate the price. They want 10% off and no sales tax. Let's look at that, shall we? 10% of the price of a Citizen 1 is $37.50 (retail is $375). IN tax is 7%, which I have to pay whether the customer does or not. That's $26.25. So, they want a discount of $63.75, meaning I'm paying THEM $3.75 to take the bike out of my store. Tell me again how bike shops are rolling in cash because we're still selling tons of bikes?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

^^ If I go into an LBS and ask for help on a particular product I will buy it from the LBS, but those type of sales only represent about 5 to 10% of all my purchases I make. I'm not one for wasting a salespersons time than leave and get it on the internet. HOWEVER, if I go to one LBS and salesperson helps me, then I go to another and they too help me, I will buy from the LBS that has the best deal thus one of the salespersons is going to lose the sale. My wife and I went to 3 LBS's to look for a bike for her and upon finding it two salespeople/LBS's lost a sale. Competition. But the same is true for auto shopping, furniture shopping, appliance shopping, etc. Competition. Some people will buy off the internet after going to LBS's and getting help, I can understand why financially, but that is really cheating an LBS sales rep even though the same thing could have happened by shopping at other LBS's, it's just some how different.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

As my wife and I go here and to throughout our city we notice many small business' and wonder how they stay in business. 

PlatyPius is correct in one respect that the largest part of our baby-boomers are aging (me and my wife being at the very end of it) have said goodbye to our 2.1 children as they go off to their lives. We baby-boomers did not do well procreating but instead spent a wealth of our money on us and our kids. So with fewer children to keep the buying power going smaller mom and pop business' are having a tough time staying open. 

Baby-boomer's children are having children later in life trying to get a foot hold on their own careers but alas that has not been such a good time as we have seen. Many moving back in with their parents and not having a job. 

So with the middle class having no buying power the Government is buying $85 billion/month in bonds propping up our economy. To what end? We shall see. But we know at this point jobs are lackluster and the pay on those jobs are even more lackluster which brings me back to my original point days ago; The middle class has no buying power anymore due to the cost of... well, everything. It takes two paychecks for the middle class to survive these days. Notice I said survive. There is no discretionary money left at the end of the month for middle class to purchase or for entertainment. That money is eaten up by the cost of gas, cost of housing, cost of credit card interest, cost of sending our children to college, and you fill in the blank costs. There is no money left period.

Take our church. Instead of the church congregation as a whole supporting the church in the past it is now the few that have done well that keeps our doors open. I'd say less that l0% are the big money givers. How do I know that? Any fundraising we do there is always to flood of low givers early. Then in our last hour a big single donor will make up the difference... well over 30% of the total amount of the funds raised.

Look all around people. Heck look at the 2013 Summer Movie Blockbusters - Per the media all and I mean ALL have failed to make money this summer. WHY? The movie people say because they were poorly scripted, tired movie plots, or this or that. Forget that folks it wasn't due to that. MIDDLE CLASS HAS NO MONEY. But no one in the media or the Government wants to say it. They blame it on everything but.

So why don't we have money when the Govmnt is pumping $85 billion into the economy every month?... to be continued


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> ^^ If I go into an LBS and ask for help on a particular product I will buy it from the LBS, but those type of sales only represent about 5 to 10% of all my purchases I make. I'm not one for wasting a salespersons time than leave and get it on the internet. HOWEVER, if I go to one LBS and salesperson helps me, then I go to another and they too help me, I will buy from the LBS that has the best deal thus one of the salespersons is going to lose the sale. My wife and I went to 3 LBS's to look for a bike for her and upon finding it two salespeople/LBS's lost a sale. Competition. But the same is true for auto shopping, furniture shopping, appliance shopping, etc. Competition. * Some people will buy off the internet after going to LBS's and getting help, I can understand why financially, but that is really cheating an LBS sales rep even though the same thing could have happened by shopping at other LBS's, it's just some how different.*


It is.

I don't feel so bad losing a sale to another bike shop. Losing a sale to an online store (unless it was a REALLY good deal) just pisses me off - especially if the product was tried on, talked up, researched at my store.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Platy that's the sales I'm seeing also. Hybrids and 29'rs. Not high dollar, all under a 1000.00. 
Plus commuter sales are typically one and done. Unless they lose or get the bike stolen. 
But I'll do my best and try to make the most of my sales. But even repairs have slowed down around my area, people are just being more careful with their money. 
Bill


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

crossracer said:


> Platy that's the sales I'm seeing also. Hybrids and 29'rs. Not high dollar, all under a 1000.00.
> Plus commuter sales are typically one and done. Unless they lose or get the bike stolen.
> But I'll do my best and try to make the most of my sales. But *even repairs have slowed down around my area*, people are just being more careful with their money.
> Bill


Ditto.
According to my J&B rep, everyone in this area (Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky) has seen massive drops in business this year. My shop is down 50%, but I have the added issue of the front of my building being gone. If I/CBC survive this year, I'll be surprised.

I've sold several Jamis Citizen 1 hybrids, a few Torker Alpentals (cheapest MTB I can get), a couple of 29ers, and 7 low-to-midrange ($1500+) road bikes. That's it. 

Service... that has been down this year too. I've only done 78 tune ups so far this year. That's down quite a bit from last year. 61 tube replacements, which is just a little below normal.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Agent319 said:


> On a mass scale no. But what is the "owner" of the LBS costing his business when he is idle!! All "owners" are idle at some point. So why not put a bike together. Put together 1 or 2 bikes a week or as needed and charge less.


Nope, you know nothing about how the bicycle industry (or any other retail sales industry i'm guessing) works. And after the PM threat you made yesterday, i'm gonna negative rep you again. Now i'll sit back and wait for the next 'threat'.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

goldsbar said:


> In 2004 I bought a Specialized Allez Pro with full Dura Ace for $3000; that's $3,700 in today's $s according to the bls website. Basically a cheap but good AL frame (E5 SLX whatever that means) with a carbon fork, bars and seat post.
> 
> Is this possible today with a real brand (i.e. real guaranty) from an LBS? I'm thinking no but very curious.


in 2014 Specialized is making an allez expert with ultegra 6800 for $2200.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> Nope, you know nothing about how the bicycle industry (or any other retail sales industry i'm guessing) works. And after the PM threat you made yesterday, i'm gonna negative rep you again. Now i'll sit back and wait for the next 'threat'.


I like how his suggestion boils down to "work more, charge less."

You bet. I'm sure my owner is just chomping at the bit to take that advice. 

There is a fundamental misconception among every customer that the things that would get them to spend more money in a certain shop are the things that are the right thing for the shop to do. The fact of the matter is, bike shops have to cater to the type of customer who will keep the door open. A lot of people here aren't the kind of customer who will keep the doors open. I don't really care if we have the right size of ball bearing for someone who wants to rebuild his 1972 campy hub, because there's no way I'm going to sell enough small parts to that guy to keep the lights on. It's nothing against that kind of customer, but if we try to cater to him, we eventually won't be able to provide anything to him. 

I would wager that as a *general* rule (certainly there are some great LBS customers on here) the type of customer who frequents this forum isn't the type of customer who's going to keep our lights on. Chain reaction sells stuff cheaper than I can buy it for, and most of you guys know that. I can't make up for selling at a loss by volume. (hey shimano, you suck)

So, we do our best to service the kind of customer who is a busy professional and has little to no desire to learn to rebuild a hub, replace a headset, true a wheel, or any number of things that aren't that hard. He/She just wants to ride a cool bike and have it work right, and they're willing to spend on their hobby because bikes are rad. Or the customer who wants the latest cool stuff and doesn't spend all day on forums talking about it - they come to us and we hook them up with cool toys. It's a community, and a lot of customers are like friends - they come in, we chat, maybe they buy something, maybe I adjust their derailleur, maybe they just like being a part of that, and want to support a LBS that they enjoy. 

Fortunately, there are lots of those people still out there. And we do our best to cater to them - because by catering to them, we'll still be around when the home mechanics get stuck on something difficult and need a hand. So, if you can't seem to find a bike shop that carries what you need, well, be thankful that you can at least find a bike shop, because if they didn't cater to the profitable customer, they wouldn't be able to do anything for you.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> Ditto.
> According to my J&B rep, everyone in this area (Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky) has seen massive drops in business this year.  My shop is down 50%, but I have the added issue of the front of my building being gone. If I/CBC survive this year, I'll be surprised.
> 
> I've sold several Jamis Citizen 1 hybrids, a few Torker Alpentals (cheapest MTB I can get), a couple of 29ers, and 7 low-to-midrange ($1500+) road bikes. That's it.
> ...


This doesn't sound like a internet taking away your business type of thing because your service work is going to, you can't send service work to the internet to be worked on and returned! 

When you said the front of your store is taken away, I assume the city is doing road or sewer work in front of your store? 

I know nothing about how you run your business so I'm not trying to be offensive towards you with these next comments. Do you offer your customers small parts instead of forcing them to buy a whole new item? Are you trying to get somewhat close to internet prices? (I know you can't meet the prices, but at least trying to get closer). Are you knocking yourself out silly trying to provide the best customer service with a friendly, courteous, professional, and non elitist attitude? Is your staff well trained? Do you offer A-La-Carte services instead of a 2 or 3 complete service packages or doing some sort of small work and charging a larger package price? Do you give group discounts to the local bike clubs? Do you carry name brand products that have brand recognition even in the acessories? (I hate walking into a store only to find cheaply made odd ball branded products at higher prices then I can get highly reviewed name brand products). Do you have free coffee or espresso, and water for your customers? Do you offer free water bottles with your store logo on it and a cage to go with it to all bike buyers along with a free tune up (some LBS's offer a lifetime of free tuneups)? Is your shop part of a local cycling team? Is the shop clean, well laid out, pleasing to the eye, not cluttered, easy to find stuff, and depending on your customer base music playing real low that isn't offensive or too loud to carry on a conversation easily? Not sure where you live but depending on the time of year, do you carry winter sport stuff? Is there another active sport around the area like kayaking, snowboarding, running, etc; you might be able to carry a small selection of some of that other stuff. I know of a shop in town that hangs their Kayaks and snowboards from the ceiling! It's actually kind of cool how they did it. Sometimes it's just a few small changes makes everything click.


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## cyclintruckin (Feb 10, 2012)

Speaking of high component prices can/does anyone now where I can get an old set of 105 (st-5510) 3X9 speed shifters for less than $150.00 in good condition ? I guess it is the whole supply and demand thing, even on ebay crappy ones are going up near the $200.00 mark Ultegra and Dura Ace forget about it those are going for small fortunes. Sorry for the highjack but since there appears to be some shop owners in this thread I'd throw some feelers out.  pm me if you have a set you wanna sell reasonably.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

If any shop still has levers that old they're probably closed down already. You're talking about shifters from almost 10 years ago.


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## cyclintruckin (Feb 10, 2012)

ultimobici said:


> If any shop still has levers that old they're probably closed down already. You're talking about shifters from almost 10 years ago.


Closed down due to having some used levers laying around ? :confused5: Isn't that part of what LBS's do to keep the doors open recommend and perform upgrades ?


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

cyclintruckin said:


> Closed down due to having some used levers laying around ? :confused5: Isn't that part of what LBS's do to keep the doors open recommend and perform upgrades ?


LBS's haven't been able to buy those for a decade.


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## cyclintruckin (Feb 10, 2012)

masont said:


> LBS's haven't been able to buy those for a decade.


geeesh ok sorry I asked. I just figured like me wanting to upgrade my older bike from sora to 105 maybe just maybe someone else had an older bike they loved and wanted to upgrade from 105 to Ultegra or Dura Ace and that one of the shops may have provided that service and still had the old 105's laying around. I was able to find all NOS FD, RD, and brakes for decent price all I am missing is shifters. I can still find NOS cranks as well. Revenue is revenue weather from new parts or old used parts laying around collecting dust.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Generally, in my experience at least, the kind of upgrade you're talking about would have happened 8 years ago as 105 went 10 speed. That's when levers in good working order will be upgraded, as the new kit comes out. The more time passes, the more knackered the old kit will be. So anything that's available now in a shop will more than likely have been replaced due to it being cream crackered.

The other thing we're seeing much more is customers wanting their parts back, especially if they are in working order. The days of the customer giving the parts to the shop or wrench are long gone due to Ebay.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

The other thing that one has to bear in mind is selling used parts is a tricky proposition these days. Gone are the times when a customer was grateful for the offer of cheap parts. Now more often than not they expect a guarantee. Too often you'd hook a customer up with a used shifter or wheel only to have them come back repeatedly expecting new part service. WTF???

Problem with your search for 9 speed 105 is that it typically gets ridden until it's toast, then replaced. Unlike Dura Ace or, to a lesser degree, Ultegra, which tends to be upgraded before it's at its life's end. Good luck, man!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> This doesn't sound like a internet taking away your business type of thing because your service work is going to, you can't send service work to the internet to be worked on and returned!
> 
> When you said the front of your store is taken away, I assume the city is doing road or sewer work in front of your store?
> 
> I know nothing about how you run your business so I'm not trying to be offensive towards you with these next comments. Do you offer your customers small parts instead of forcing them to buy a whole new item? Are you trying to get somewhat close to internet prices? (I know you can't meet the prices, but at least trying to get closer). Are you knocking yourself out silly trying to provide the best customer service with a friendly, courteous, professional, and non elitist attitude? Is your staff well trained? Do you offer A-La-Carte services instead of a 2 or 3 complete service packages or doing some sort of small work and charging a larger package price? Do you give group discounts to the local bike clubs? Do you carry name brand products that have brand recognition even in the acessories? (I hate walking into a store only to find cheaply made odd ball branded products at higher prices then I can get highly reviewed name brand products). Do you have free coffee or espresso, and water for your customers? Do you offer free water bottles with your store logo on it and a cage to go with it to all bike buyers along with a free tune up (some LBS's offer a lifetime of free tuneups)? Is your shop part of a local cycling team? Is the shop clean, well laid out, pleasing to the eye, not cluttered, easy to find stuff, and depending on your customer base music playing real low that isn't offensive or too loud to carry on a conversation easily? Not sure where you live but depending on the time of year, do you carry winter sport stuff? Is there another active sport around the area like kayaking, snowboarding, running, etc; you might be able to carry a small selection of some of that other stuff. I know of a shop in town that hangs their Kayaks and snowboards from the ceiling! It's actually kind of cool how they did it. Sometimes it's just a few small changes makes everything click.


That's a lot of questions, and I'm on a phone....
No, front of my store is gone. ie: I'm missing 400-ish sq/ft and there's a bunch of plastic where walls should be. It's called the Stellar Communities grant. 19 million dollars to make downtown look better. So far, two businesses have gone out of business while the construction morons take their time (I'm a better carpenter than most of these guys).

I'm 2.5 or so hours southwest of you. No winter sports at all.

Usually no music in the store. It annoys me.

Initial adjustment free and one free tune up.

I always try to fix things rather than replace them.

Many of my customers are from out of town or out of state because a) I'm OCD and my repair work is excellent and b) I have a bigger selection of parts and accessories than BGI or Performance, and my prices are better.

The "local" team is in Terre Haute and is sponsored by another shop. The discount I give the team people is better than they get at that shop. No more local club. I tried. 5 people at the most ever showed up. I sponsor a tri-geek and a MTBer.

I'm not Platy in the store. Unless I know the person. People don't feel threatened or stupid in my store... I'm a 300 pound jolly fat man who rides a bike.

I have my own coffee brand, so there's coffee on (autumn and winter - no interest during the summer) and there's a water cooler for filling bottles.

That's my limit for typing and correcting on the phone... arthritis is acting up now.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

PlatyPius said:


> That's a lot of questions, and I'm on a phone....
> No, front of my store is gone. ie: I'm missing 400-ish sq/ft and there's a bunch of plastic where walls should be. It's called the Stellar Communities grant. 19 million dollars to make downtown look better. So far, two businesses have gone out of business while the construction morons take their time (I'm a better carpenter than most of these guys).
> 
> I'm 2.5 or so hours southwest of you. No winter sports at all.
> ...


I'd like to shop at your store but you're too far away. Like 7hrs away.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> I'd like to shop at your store but you're too far away. Like 7hrs away.


September 28 & 29 I'll be set up at the Apple Cider century in Michigan. That has to be closer...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

PlatyPius said:


> September 28 & 29 I'll be set up at the Apple Cider century in Michigan. That has to be closer...


Yep, will be. Detroit's 2-3hrs west depending on traffic. Don't hold yer breath expecting me to be there though.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> Yep, will be. Detroit's 2-3hrs west depending on traffic. Don't hold yer breath expecting me to be there though.


I could always take a trip to Wheatley, Ontario (one of my old vacation spots) for vacation and bring some stuff with me.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

PlatyPius said:


> I could always take a trip to Wheatley, Ontario (one of my old vacation spots) for vacation and bring some stuff with me.


Awwright! Bring a few Cyfacs for me to try!!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> Awwright! Bring a few Cyfacs for me to try!!


Youbetcha, as long as you can ride a 54....


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

cyclintruckin said:


> Closed down due to having some used levers laying around ? :confused5: Isn't that part of what LBS's do to keep the doors open recommend and perform upgrades ?


Dead stock inventory is a liability in any industry. 

Killer, actually.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

platypius said:


> youbetcha, as long as you can ride a 54....


55.5 tt?


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Usually no music in the store. It annoys me.


OT, we were looking for shoes and went to Foot Locker and Champs, a couple of sneaker type stores. They all had annoying pseudo-ghetto noise blaring really really loud. Presumably to attract the sort of moron teen males who worry about groovy sneakers. But all these kids have their mommy with them to pay for said sneakers, and the music simply annoys anyone over 30. 
What a miserable shopping environment.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> 55.5 tt?


Just measured it. Oui. 55.5 tt.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

PlatyPius said:


> Just measured it. Oui. 55.5 tt.


Mon dieu!


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

cyclintruckin said:


> geeesh ok sorry I asked. I just figured like me wanting to upgrade my older bike from sora to 105 maybe just maybe someone else had an older bike they loved and wanted to upgrade from 105 to Ultegra or Dura Ace and that one of the shops may have provided that service and still had the old 105's laying around. I was able to find all NOS FD, RD, and brakes for decent price all I am missing is shifters. I can still find NOS cranks as well. Revenue is revenue weather from new parts or old used parts laying around collecting dust.


Check out the new sora nine speed levers. I still ride nine speed ultegra and these feel exactly like them. I'm looking at a set for my cross bike. That's how much I like them. 
Ps the new Soras have the barrel adjusters incorporated into the shifter. 

Bill


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

cyclintruckin said:


> geeesh ok sorry I asked. I just figured like me wanting to upgrade my older bike from sora to 105 maybe just maybe someone else had an older bike they loved and wanted to upgrade from 105 to Ultegra or Dura Ace and that one of the shops may have provided that service and still had the old 105's laying around. I was able to find all NOS FD, RD, and brakes for decent price all I am missing is shifters. I can still find NOS cranks as well. Revenue is revenue weather from new parts or old used parts laying around collecting dust.


I'm not sure why you got so defensive. Did I say something to offend you? 

I'm sorry if I did, but it's *very* unlikely you'll find 10 year old gear at a shop for sale. Typically, if used gear gets dropped off at a shop, we give it to the kids that work for us who are trying to get a bike built up. They usually appreciate free old parts a lot.


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## cyclintruckin (Feb 10, 2012)

masont said:


> I'm not sure why you got so defensive. Did I say something to offend you?
> 
> I'm sorry if I did, but it's *very* unlikely you'll find 10 year old gear at a shop for sale. Typically, if used gear gets dropped off at a shop, we give it to the kids that work for us who are trying to get a bike built up. They usually appreciate free old parts a lot.


Oh no offense I am a smartazz, I did find a set on fleabay yesterday they were the cheapest and best condition ones I could find and still they were $125.00. Like you guy's have stated they are 7 to 10yrs old and in my looking around, these I got were a steal at that price. They are in near mint condition according to the pics. This is just kinda going along with the OP's original point. I have seen the bidding on these things in rough shape (scrapped up/missing name plates etc.) going up near the $200.00 mark. Someone had a set of NOS Ultegra ST-6510's that sold for $345.00 a very roughed up set of Dura Ace 7700's wet for $230.00. Prices are getting outta hand on parts, but if the demand wasn't so high the price would come down. I am happy now that I finally will be done with my rebuild, the cost has definitely gone beyond what I thought it would. Rebuilding an older bike is just not worth the time or trouble, I have learned the hard way. At least I do love the bike it suits me and my riding well and it should give me years of trouble free use.......(I hope/it better)


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> That's my limit for typing and correcting on the phone... arthritis is acting up now.



You're in Terre Haute? That's more then 3 hours from me. If by some slim chance I ever make it to that city I'll have to pop in you shop. What's the name of your shop? Type the name of your shop in all caps to kind of show case it here.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> You're in Terre Haute? That's more then 3 hours from me. If by some slim chance I ever make it to that city I'll have to pop in you shop. What's the name of your shop? Type the name of your shop in all caps to kind of show case it here.


Greencastle.
I'm the only shop in town (real shop, that is...)


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> I'd like to shop at your store but you're too far away. Like 7hrs away.


Mike T -- It's worth the trip. I'm 6 hrs away. I don't get there as often as I like, but it's worth the trip.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> Greencastle.
> I'm the only shop in town (real shop, that is...)


Covered Bridge Cyclery?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> Covered Bridge Cyclery?


That would be me.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> That would be me.


We should all gang up and give you praises on the review site and see if business increases! Go here: https://www.google.com/search?q=cov...7j0l2j69i60j0.6893j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 See right side pane and click on review.


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