# Contador, what a d!ck!!!!!!!!!



## Damitletsride!

A decent rider would have waited up for Schleck.

All I can say is, I hope you have a mechanical in the final time trial, what goes around comes around.


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## ZoSoSwiM

I agree but racing is racing.. Not as much class as other greats.


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## Sylint

Kind of a dbag move but it is what it is.


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## ibexslc

Attacking a dropped chain = A$$ hat


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## ECXkid04

Damitletsride! said:


> A decent rider would have waited up for Schleck.
> 
> All I can say is, I hope you have a mechanical in the final time trial, what goes around comes around.


Amen to that. I already dislike him for some intangible reason. I will rejoice come the day when Contador has a mechanical/crashes. He was not the stronger rider. No class...


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## carbonLORD

This is a race, (and a lot of money). Like any of you would do differently if you were in the same situation at this point of the race..... really, I doubt it. Get off your high horse, all of you.

In not a Contador fan, just sayin.

No Gifts!


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## My Own Private Idaho

No class way to take the yellow jersey. That sucked.

Voeckler looked good! I like that kid.


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## Sojourneyman

carbonLORD said:


> No Gifts!


I don't feel like this is making your point.


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## tober1

It's a crappy way to take the yellow, but I can (somewhat) understand it.


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## tomcho

Tough call sanchez and menchov were right there, he didn't want to lose any more of his time on those guys. Plus I think he knew AS had him, if he waited he would have lost more time up the rest of the climb. AS came back and passed people like they were standing still.


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## ttug

*NOT waiting for the Yellow Jersey NO CLASS*

Contador, WHAT A JACK WAGON


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## petalpower

I think he realized that he was at most equal to Schleck, and perhaps weaker, and seized the opportunity to gain time.

I don't agree with it 100%, but that's racing.


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## rydbyk

I see BOTH sides.... Sucks for Schleck...I DO know that. Schleck better do the best TT of his life now! I like Andy a lot...but he spent WAY too much time simply putting his chain back on...that should take no more than 5-10 seconds...

ANYONE KNOW HOW HIS BIKE'S REAR TIRE WENT AIRBORNE?? WEIRD.


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## robdamanii

It's almost always been a gentlemanly thing to wait for your opponent in the event of mechanical, so that battle can be done properly.

Attacking a dropped chain is poor form indeed. There's nothing in that about being a better rider, just a luckier one.


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## DZfan14

carbonLORD said:


> This is a race, (and a lot of money). Like any of you would do differently if you were in the same situation at this point of the race..... really, I doubt it. Get off your high horse, all of you.
> 
> In not a Contador fan, just sayin.
> 
> No Gifts!


Contador got the gift today. He shouldn't have accepted it.


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## pretender

I guess it depends on whether you view a dropped chain as an act of God or an act of a human being.


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## ttug

*No Class*



tomcho said:


> Tough call sanchez and menchov were right there, he didn't want to lose any more of his time on those guys. Plus I think he knew AS had him, if he waited he would have lost more time up the rest of the climb. AS came back and passed people like they were standing still.


He should have waited, its a bad move and he has burmed a bridge


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## PlatyPius

I agree. Can't stand him. Can't stand Lance, either. I'd rather have just about anyone else win the Tour.


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## gs15step

Dick move, end of.


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## robdamanii

As I said in the other thread: classless.

A gentleman would have slowed and waited for the battle to properly commence, not take advantage of an equipment malfunction.


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## booksbikesbeer

Vino was on Schleck's wheel when the chain go stuck, and Vino sat up, looked back, and stopped attacking. The others shouldn't have stopped riding, but they should not have upped the pace.


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## ttug

*agreed*



PlatyPius said:


> I agree. Can't stand him. Can't stand Lance, either. I'd rather have just about anyone else win the Tour.



Others honored and there was a protest earlier in this TDF which all others honored back in stage 4. Mope, this guy has broken a rule, he will not have an easy TDF from mow on and we are not out of the mountains yet. This could be a shame


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## carbonLORD

Sojourneyman said:


> I don't feel like this is making your point.


My point is, waiting for someone for any reason, (crash, mechanical, etc) and expecting that to come back to you is as ridiculous as those who believe in karma.

People seem to have forgotten that this is a race for high stakes, money, sponsors, fame, etc etc.

Contador owes his competitors nothing. You can fault Specialized, or SRAM (Shimano?) or Schlecks mechanic.

This is not fantasy TDF where there is no consequence for failure.


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## mbcracken

Team Astana and AC knew that AS had a mechanical problem and yet did nothing to re-establish an rider v. rider race. Team Astana even stuck someone on AS to provide reports back to the team. This was a bad day for rider v. rider racing because Astana purposely took advantage of the mechanical.


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## petalpower

Hopefully Karma rears her ugly head upon Contador before the Tours end.


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## NextTime

Once again, Contador's actions speak for itself.

Now, how can Schleck get the time back? . . .


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## carbonLORD

DZfan14 said:


> Contador got the gift today. He shouldn't have accepted it.


Why?

Now if he returned that "gift".... maybe if they were exchanging 4th and 5th place positions....

Otherwise, no way, not for 1st.


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## ttug

*Wrong*



mbcracken said:


> Team Astana and AC knew that AS had a mechanical problem and yet did nothing to re-establish an rider v. rider race. Team Astana even stuck someone on AS to provide reports back to the team. This was a bad day for rider v. rider racing because Astana purposely took advantage of the mechanical.


Thats total BS, Contador has broken a great tradition in the greatest of all cycling events. No excuses. Its a sham and a spectacle of no class. WAIT UNTIL TOMORROW


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## My Own Private Idaho

Contador beat Shleck's bike, not Andy.


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## Ejdo

Sanchez and Menchov were going so AC kept pushing too. That said, I really dislike AC and would love to see Andy in yellow.


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## zosocane

Contador still has a lot to learn.


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## ttug

*You Are Correct Sir*



My Own Private Idaho said:


> Contador beat Shleck's bike, not Andy.


PERFECTION


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## Salsa_Lover

Contador didn't saw the malfunction, when you see the video, he attacks and passes Andy and only notice the mechanical later, then he looks puzzled looking back, but the others went with him and he can't just let 3 and 4 go on and he wait for 1.


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## mbcracken

Schleck is angry and would not have raced liked that...Per the interview...


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## coreyb

carbonLORD said:


> My point is, waiting for someone for any reason, (crash, mechanical, etc) and expecting that to come back to you is as ridiculous as those who believe in karma.


How exactly is it ridiculous? I'm not quite understanding the comparison to karma


carbonLORD said:


> People seem to have forgotten that this is a race for high stakes, money, sponsors, fame, etc etc.
> 
> Contador owes his competitors nothing. You can fault Specialized, or SRAM (Shimano?) or Schlecks mechanic.
> 
> This is not fantasy TDF where there is no consequence for failure.


Nobody has forgotten that there are stakes. But there is precedent for acting honorably rather than taking advantage of such situations.


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## Salsa_Lover

Contador didn't saw the malfunction, when you see the video, he attacks and passes Andy and only notice the mechanical later, then he looks puzzled looking back, but the others went with him and he can't just let 3 and 4 go on and he wait for 1.


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## limba

When it happened I thought "oh no!" and couldn't believe they didn't wait for him but Alberto had to go with the other guys. 

edit - I just saw the replay and when AC caught Andy he counter attacked and accelerated hard. AC wasn't just staying with the other GC contenders he was pulling at the front and trying to gain time. Not cool.


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## culdeus

A dropped chain is not a mechanical. It's overwhelming the capacity of your shifters. I'd think any of you people would know that. This is EXACTLY why lance would use DT shifters in stages like this.


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## jpdigital

At first I thought Conta was in an "akward" situation and just working w/ Sanchez & Menchov. Just say the replay, and it was a CLASSLESS move. Especially seeing how Conta was hurting when Andy initially attacked and gapped him. Not cool at all.


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## Damitletsride!

I think he realized Schleck might have been stronger, so took the one chance he had.

Armstrong waited for Ullrich before when he crashed or had problems, it's just racing etiquette. 

What a doosh bag.


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## Bocephus Jones II

I hate Contador...


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## cpark

ttug said:


> PERFECTION



You sir, are incorrect.
Since they both ride Specialized/Sram, AC beat AS' mechanic....


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## zosocane

Salsa_Lover said:


> Contador didn't saw the malfunction, when you see the video, he attacks and passes Andy and only notice the mechanical later, then he looks puzzled looking back, but the others went with him and he can't just let 3 and 4 go on and he wait for 1.


This is why Contador will never be a "patron" like Cancellara is becoming. Contador would have heard on race radio about Schleck's malfunction -- it's up to Contador to show leadership and tell Sanchez and Menchov to hold off. He can't just say I had no choice and needed to follow their wheels. A lot to learn ...

Listening to the Eurosport audio coverage ... Bert is being booed by the French crowd.


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## HeluvaSkier

It looked like AS was cross chaining a lot during his attack and the chain jumped up to the big ring and off. Was AC's move any different from the big pull that Saxo put on the front when LA flatted on the cobbles? ...Not that he was ever a contender with AC/AS, but it was a mechanical that a lot of big GC guys took advantage of. The only thing that I hope, is that the Tour isn't decided by this mechanical. I highly doubt that it would have been because AC can TT so much better than AS. If anything we will see more fireworks in the remainder of the mountain stages this week. I really want to see a AC/AS climbing showdown to see who the better climber really is.


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## Tig

The issue here is CLASS, or the lack of it.
Integrity can be a rare value.

Andy's interview with Frankie said it all, yet he retained his dignity and class.


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## turbomatic73

culdeus said:


> This is EXACTLY why lance would use DT shifters in stages like this.


wha????


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## Muaddib

Imagine if Lance had put the hammer down when Ulrich went off the road on the descent or Ulrich dropped the hammer on Lance when he was brought down by the musette. I love that the Tour has a history of respect for the rider in yellow and the top contenders. Class would have dictated Contador, Menchov, and Sanchez wait. I really hope Schleck wins now.


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## ttug

*nope*



cpark said:


> You sir, are incorrect.
> Since they both ride Specialized/Sram, AC beat AS' mechanic....


BS. Any bikle will fail on any day. It has happened in a ll races. The tradition is simple, its homored, except if you are Contador who has not yet dropped AS during this TDF. The strongest rider should win, at least, thats what Eddy Merckx says......


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## mbcracken

AC is receiving more jeers the cheers while putting on the Yellow Jersey.


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## wiz525

apparently it's not just spectators who disagree with that decision...

from twitter: @gerardvroomen Contador just gained a great chance to win, but he lost the chance to win greatly. #tdf


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## Salsa_Lover

yesterday he did "trackstands" with Andy and the other two went on. why it would be different today ?


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## FatGut1

Contador = Dick


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## cq20

So… if AC punctured on the TT would we expect AS to stop during his TT for the same number of seconds? Somehow I doubt it. 

What upset me is that it looked like a decisive move by AS was about to put AC into trouble … or maybe not. We lost out on seeing a good battle but these things happen.


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## LWP

Salsa_Lover said:


> Contador didn't saw the malfunction, when you see the video, he attacks and passes Andy and only notice the mechanical later, then he looks puzzled looking back, but the others went with him and he can't just let 3 and 4 go on and he wait for 1.


He saw it. I'm not getting into whether or not he should have attacked though. Tradition says no, sponsors say yes and 3rd and 4th were running away regardless so it's a tough call. I hate it for Andy, he was my pick to win before the race started and I hate to see him drop from the front due to a mechanical. Anger can destroy or fuel, we'll see what it does to Andy. Kinda funny watching AC on the podium touching his heart and shooting his pistols while you can clearly hear more booing than cheers in the background.


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## ZoSoSwiM

I can't stand Contador... Now he's a marked man in the peloton. Andy might get help from other teams because of this move.


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## carbonLORD

Muaddib said:


> Imagine if Lance had put the hammer down when Ulrich went off the road on the descent or Ulrich dropped the hammer on Lance when he was brought down by the musette. I love that the Tour has a history of respect for the rider in yellow and the top contenders. Class would have dictated Contador, Menchov, and Sanchez wait. I really hope Schleck wins now.


Just makes it that much more interesting.

Armstrong was not worried and Ulrich never stood a chance anyway


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## thesmokingman

The rules of the road don't apply to Contador. He is what he looks and acts like.


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## jd3

Conti got booed on the podium.


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## coreyb

culdeus said:


> A dropped chain is not a mechanical.


It certainly seems like a mechanical incident. Regardless, it matters not. It can be argued that most crashes involve some sort of rider error as well, but it is expected that opponents will not attack because of a crash


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## Hawayyan

I was kinda thinking the same thing, is a dropped chain a mechanical? I can see a broken chain or something, but a dropped chain could be the result of a crossed chain situation, miss shift or trying to shift under to much pressure on the equipment.


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## Pablo

Can someone 'splaim me the logic why you can't attack when there's a mechanical in road racing? I think it's ok to do so in an mtb race where a mechanical is much more likely. Is this an all out race or a who has more cadio-a-thon?


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## tinkerbeast

what yanks my chain is that AC really didnt need to counterattack when schleck had that mechanical. is he worried he cant make up 30 sec on the TT? just goes to show what an insecure rider he is and how little confidence he has in his abilities.

he got boo'd on the podium... seriously what a dick.


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## 32and3cross

culdeus said:


> A dropped chain is not a mechanical. It's overwhelming the capacity of your shifters. I'd think any of you people would know that. This is EXACTLY why lance would use DT shifters in stages like this.


Lance only used a DT shifter on the front and then only to save weight, nothing to do with performance.


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## HokieRider

Lots of boos for AC during the jersey ceremony. Tomorrow will be a very interesting day.


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## culdeus

coreyb said:


> It certainly seems like a mechanical incident. Regardless, it matters not. It can be argued that most crashes involve some sort of rider error as well, but it is expected that opponents will not attack because of a crash



I'm on contador's side in this until it comes out that this wasn't a simple dropped chain because a n00b got cross chained. Any of us know not to do that.


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## Pablo

Can someone 'splaim me the logic why you can't attack when there's a mechanical in road racing? I think it's ok to do so in an mtb race where a mechanical is much more likely. Is this an all out race or a who has more cadio-a-thon?


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## yater

He only used the front down tube shifter. The rear was always a brifter.


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## Tig

The yellow jersey is hollow today, just like Contador's "victory". Classless. His team's director's radio had to report what happened, so no excuses.

//I'm happy for the result of Ryder H. and the well earned stage win for Voeckler.


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## otiebob

Umm, Schleck should know better than to try to shift into the big ring under extreme load uphill. User error, not a mechanical. Moreover, he was in the act of attacking so they countered- its racing. Schleck already had the whole race stopped so he could catchup via Cancellara at the beginning of the tour. How many gimmes does he get? He can't stay on his bike and he can't shift. Do you think Hinault would have waited in a case like this? I doubt it seriously. Sure, Contador could have waited as could Menchov and Sanchez but they didn't but its not the sin so many people seem to think it is...


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## thesmokingman

LWP said:


> He saw it. I'm not getting into whether or not he should have attacked though. Tradition says no, sponsors say yes and 3rd and 4th were running away regardless so it's a tough call. I hate it for Andy, he was my pick to win before the race started and I hate to see him drop from the front due to a mechanical. Anger can destroy or fuel, we'll see what it does to Andy. Kinda funny watching AC on the podium touching his heart and shooting his pistols while you can clearly hear more booing than cheers in the background.


He could have slowed them down like Jan did in the past?


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## PJay

*shifting problem. fair game.*

shifting problem. fair game.


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## zosocane

Pablo said:


> Can someone 'splaim me the logic why you can't attack when there's a mechanical in road racing? I think it's ok to do so in an mtb race where a mechanical is much more likely. Is this an all out race or a who has more cadio-a-thon?


I think the point is that the leader's jersey -- not just any other GC hopeful -- shouldn't be attacked because of a crash or mechanical. An unwritten rule I suppose. See, e.g., 2003 TdF when Lance in yellow crashed and Tyler Hamilton directed Ullrich and Co. to slow it down.


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## ZoSoSwiM

tinkerbeast said:


> he got boo'd on the podium... seriously what a dick.



He sometimes says he can't understand some english... Well... A boo is universally understood. Let that follow him.


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## Salsa_Lover

Many of you don't remember that Andy Schleck got his 30' advantage over contador during the stage on the Pavés, where Contador had a mechanical ( he had a broken spoke and had to finish the stage with the wheel rubbing the fork ), 

Andy didn't wait Contador then.


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## thesmokingman

Ah it was Tyler? Ok.


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## california

The tour is a bike race but it is also about tradition and honor. It is hard to make snap judgements in a race, but I believe Contador showed his true character. 
He will get yellow but will not win any support or fans from such a lack of class.


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## Salsa_Lover

Many of you don't remember that Andy Schleck got his 30' advantage over contador during the stage on the Pavés, where Contador had a mechanical ( he had a broken spoke and had to finish the stage with the wheel rubbing the fork ), 

Andy didn't wait Contador then.


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## yater

thesmokingman said:


> The rules of the road don't apply to Contador. He is what he looks and acts like.


An elf?


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## albert owen

It wasn't a mechanical fault. Schleck got a *gear change wrong*. Why should Contador, Menchov and Sanchez wait because of *rider error by Schleck.* Everyone knows that trying to change gear onto the big ring when the chain is on 11/12 on the back sprocket is asking for trouble!


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## Tig

I really wish Frank Schleck was still in the race. They'd 1-2 attack AC over tomorrow's climbs.

// Nice win for Voekler today!!!


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## jptaylorsg

otiebob said:


> Umm, Schleck should know better than to try to shift into the big ring under extreme load uphill. User error, not a mechanical. Moreover, he was in the act of attacking so they countered- its racing. Schleck already had the whole race stopped so he could catchup via Cancellara at the beginning of the tour. How many gimmes does he get? He can't stay on his bike and he can't shift. Do you think Hinault would have waited in a case like this? I doubt it seriously. Sure, Contador could have waited as could Menchov and Sanchez but they didn't but its not the sin so many people seem to think it is...


I tend to agree with your logic. It's not like Schleck got attacked by a bear or something out of his control.

BUT

I guess the larger point is that it would have been classy to wait, and they didn't so - no class.

I'm torn. I seem to remember that Schleck's advantage over Contador was largely gained on the cobbles when Spartacus towed him home while Contador limped home on a broken spoke (mechanical, anyone?). Still, I wish he would have tried to get Sanchez and Menchov to slow a bit.

It's nice, though, for people to finally have a real reason to hate Contador.


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## Uncle Jam's Army

Salsa_Lover said:


> Many of you don't remember that Andy Schleck got his 30' advantage over contador during the stage on the Pavés, where Contador had a mechanical ( he had a broken spoke and had to finish the stage with the wheel rubbing the fork ),
> 
> Andy didn't wait Contador then.


Contador was not in yellow. The rule applies to the yellow jersey.


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## culdeus

yater said:


> He only used the front down tube shifter. The rear was always a brifter.


He did occasionally use both. The last few tours where he ran this configuration he only used the front. With USPS he did use both several stages.


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## LWP

thesmokingman said:


> He could have slowed them down like Jan did in the past?


He could have tried to slow them but didn't. He was doing a lot of the pulling. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it is what it is. Good or bad, it's done. He made his choice and he'll have no room for whining if he suffers the same fate at some point in the race.


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## coreyb

Salsa_Lover said:


> Many of you don't remember that Andy Schleck got his 30' advantage over contador during the stage on the Pavés, where Contador had a mechanical ( he had a broken spoke and had to finish the stage with the wheel rubbing the fork ),
> 
> Andy didn't wait Contador then.


Right, Schleck didn't wait in regards to a mechanical issue which was not readily apparent. Contador was not at the side of the road waiting for a wheel.


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## Bocephus Jones II

Pablo said:


> Can someone 'splaim me the logic why you can't attack when there's a mechanical in road racing? I think it's ok to do so in an mtb race where a mechanical is much more likely. Is this an all out race or a who has more cadio-a-thon?


It's tradition. Riders with class respect these traditions and rats arses like Contador ignore the traditions.


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## tinkerbeast

Salsa_Lover said:


> Contador didn't saw the malfunction, when you see the video, he attacks and passes Andy and only notice the mechanical later, then he looks puzzled looking back, but the others went with him and he can't just let 3 and 4 go on and he wait for 1.


so did this happen between the pulls he did on the front with menchov and sanchez?... 

even if he didnt notice it he ought to have waited on the back of that group and let those 2 do the pace making instead of taking massive pulls himself. his 'puzzled' looks back was to see how much time he was putting into andy


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## rogger

albert owen said:


> It wasn't a mechanical fault. Schleck got a *gear change wrong*. Why should Contador, Menchov and Sanchez wait because of *rider error by Schleck.* Everyone knows that trying to change gear onto the big ring when the chain is on 11/12 on the back sprocket is asking for trouble!


Hey, this is an Conatdor bashing thread. Keep your common sense out of here!

PS: he's a really sh*tty team mate too!


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## Bocephus Jones II

rogger said:


> Hey, this is an Conatdor bashing thread. Keep your common sense out of here!
> 
> PS: he's a really sh*tty team mate too!


I bet he kicks puppies.


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## thesmokingman

yater said:


> An elf?


I guess elves and aliens don't respect the yellow?


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## rogger

Bocephus Jones II said:


> It's tradition. Riders with class respect these traditions and rats arses like Contador ignore the traditions.


How far back does this tradition go? Please be specific in your answer.


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## zosocane

Pablo said:


> Can someone 'splaim me the logic why you can't attack when there's a mechanical in road racing? I think it's ok to do so in an mtb race where a mechanical is much more likely. Is this an all out race or a who has more cadio-a-thon?


From cyclingnews.com:

"Schleck slipped his chain in the process of escaping the group of overall contenders near the top of the Porte de Balès, and Contador _*ignored one of the unwritten rules of cycling etiquette by responding and attacking the yellow jersey in his moment of difficulty*_. Rather than waiting for the Luxembourger, Contador blasted clear with Denis Menchov (Rabobank) and Samuel Sanchez (Euskaltel-Euskadi) while Schleck gave desperate pursuit on the descent to the finish."


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## rogger

Bocephus Jones II said:


> I bet he kicks puppies.


Only if the have "mechanicals" :wink:


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## adimiro

Such simplistic analysis to lay full blame on Conti...Was he supposed to just let #3 and #4 go and put time into him? Who was there to know whether he tried to get Sanchez, Menchov to slow down? The other riders in the front also must have known about Andy's mechanical right? Finally, it seems that it was Andy on the attack when his chain malfunctioned, seems Contador was just trying to match the attack rather than take advantage of the problem. BTW, Velonews reports it took Andy only 20 seconds to get back rolling, sounds like it happened too fast to do much anything.


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## thesmokingman

Bocephus Jones II said:


> I bet he kicks puppies.


Lol, I nealy spit up my coffee.


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## rydbyk

jd3 said:


> Conti got booed on the podium.



Video?? Post link. I want to see this.


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## albert owen

If he hadn't been attacking at the time and Schleck had actually had a mechanical Contador would have waited.
Schleck attacked - messed up his gear change - Contador took advantage of Schleck's mistake***

*** _A.Schleck reminder to self - "I really must learn how to change gear going up hill with the cranks under torque"._.


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## team_sheepshead

Maybe if Schleck weren't such a cocky competitor, AC would have been more tempted to wait. Schleck's cockiness has come back to haunt him, me thinks.

First, he discounts Evans chances in the TdF. Right, Schleck, diss the world champion. Where's the class in that? And then Schleck tells anyone who will listen that AC will have to attack him to get the yellow jersey. Just yesterday, Schleck said of AC: "I feel really good, and if he wants to get me tomorrow, he has to be really good."

You think AC does not read this stuff?

And as for "tradition," the traditions in the TdF once included: no rear derailleurs; refilling water bottles in local fountains; doping up to your gills; etc. Traditions change.

And no matter what any of us say about tradition, rivalry and controversy make the sport more enjoyable. This is entertainment, and nothing else. This is one step above professional wrestling. Whether or not AC really knew that Schleck dropped his chain, AC knows how to put on a show.

Yankees-Red Sox. Lakers-Celtics. Vikings-Packers. Armstrong-AC. Now AC-Schleck. Bring it on.


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## cpark

ttug said:


> BS. Any bikle will fail on any day. It has happened in a ll races. The tradition is simple, its homored, except if you are Contador who has not yet dropped AS during this TDF. The strongest rider should win, at least, thats what Eddy Merckx says......


Lighten up Francis....
I was simply stating that it wasn't AC's bike that beat AS' bike, mechanical/mechanics did (half jokingly)......


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## Salsa_Lover

rogger said:


> How far back does this tradition go? Please be specific in your answer.



on FR2, Fignon, Jalabert, Bosseau, Hinault all then agree there was not antisportive conduct, that a chain fault is part of the race and that the contenders don't have to pass the tour waiting for each other in case of problems.

And those know something about tradition and the Tour de France


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## Hawayyan

Why aren't people saying that Menchov, et al are d!cks, and we all hate them too? AC wasn't the only one who kept going, or does this REALLY boil down to folks dislike (re: bitter hatred) of Contador?


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## 32and3cross

culdeus said:


> He did occasionally use both. The last few tours where he ran this configuration he only used the front. With USPS he did use both several stages.


Sorry I think your wrong on this.


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## Salsa_Lover

on FR2, Fignon, Jalabert, Bosseau, Hinault all then agree there was not antisportive conduct, that a chain fault is part of the race and that the contenders don't have to pass the tour waiting for each other in case of problems.

And those know something about tradition and the Tour de France


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## otiebob

jptaylorsg said:


> It's nice, though, for people to finally have a real reason to hate Contador.


Yes, there's definitely more fuel for the Contador pyre. 

Who knows, maybe Schleck will benefit from this and tear it up in the next two days. His team will no longer have to do all the work. Regardless, it should be exciting to watch. Menchov and Sanchez are the real winners today. No blowback for their part in the counterattack and they now can possibly jump higher on the podium since Schleck is not the best time-trialist.


----------



## jlwdm

albert owen said:


> It wasn't a mechanical fault. Schleck got a *gear change wrong*. Why should Contador, Menchov and Sanchez wait because of *rider error by Schleck.* Everyone knows that trying to change gear onto the big ring when the chain is on 11/12 on the back sprocket is asking for trouble!



It was rider error when Jan went off the road.

It was partial rider error when Lance cut the corner too tight and hooked the musette.

Jeff


----------



## CraigFavata9

Champions need a ruthless streak and that's what you saw with Bert today, he smelt blood and stuck the knife in. I really have no time for the semantics over whether it was a mechanical or whether it was a technical rider error however, because I don't want the tour to be decided by either of those things. I wanted to see a battle of climbing strength over the biggest lumps in France, not some guy taking advantage of another guy's misfortune/technical mishap/whatever. 

It's a shame really because if Bert had used his ruthless streak to destroy a struggling Schleck I would've been encouraging him and shouting "FINISH HIM!!!" at the television like some rabid dog, all the while hailing his strength and prowess as a bike rider, because I love the way he can do that. Now though, all I've got left is to give Schleck my sympathy, and I'll be willing him on from here on in, whatever happens.


----------



## coreyb

jlwdm said:


> It was rider error when Jan went off the road.
> 
> It was partial rider error when Lance cut the corner too tight and hooked the musette.


Agreed. I can't figure out why rider error would matter on a mechanical issue but not on a crash.


----------



## rogger

jlwdm said:


> It was rider error when Jan went off the road.
> 
> It was partial rider error when Lance cut the corner too tight and hooked the musette.
> 
> Jeff


And, at least on this side of the pond, Lance's wating for Ullrich had everyone asking what the hell he was doing. That really was a case of jamais-vu.


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

Contador was answering Andy's attack, before Andy suddenly slowed dramatically. Contador clearly saw what happened just before passing, and then went hard. Vino had already sat up. Sanchez and Menchov followed Contador through - not the other way around. If Contador had sat up, the others would have also. To top it off, in the post race interview, Contador claims he didn't see anything and didn't know what happened. BS.


----------



## shabbasuraj

I can put a dropped chain back on in 7 seconds, and not 30 seconds, 

Unclip, grab chain, put onto small chain ring, immediately spin the wheel, and jump back on.

I guess pro riders should learn some basic wrenching skills. /endthread


----------



## ttug

*nope*



Salsa_Lover said:


> on FR2, Fignon, Jalabert, Bosseau, Hinault all then agree there was not antisportive conduct, that a chain fault is part of the race and that the contenders don't have to pass the tour waiting for each other in case of problems.
> 
> And those know something about tradition and the Tour de France


Hinault also violated tradition when he lied to Greg. Sorry, no soap. I respect Eddy far more than Hinault


----------



## zosocane

thesmokingman said:


> Ah it was Tyler? Ok.


Yes.  Watch 2:24 where Hamilton is directing the race leaders to slow down. Ullrich did slow down but he didn't say anything, he just kept looking around (although he was clearly soft-pedaling). www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaKR5iOCTts&feature=related

My point is that Contador needs to have taken a similar leadership role and told Menchov and SS to slow down.

"You know in the sport of cycling, there is always payback time. Don't ever burn bridges, don't ever make enemies." Paul Sherwen @ 3:32.


----------



## covenant

Doing it right:

Half way into the next climb, Luz Ardiden, Armstrong's handlebar got caught in a spectator's yellow musette waving in the mid-air and he fell. Ullrich waited for Armstrong to recover.
Germany made Ullrich sportsman of the year. Commenting on Ullrich's wait for Armstrong to recover, Dan Boyle, of the Institute for International Sport said "It was an act that will live with him forever, cynics will say he lost money, but it was a highly commendable thing that he did.


----------



## shabbasuraj

Watching Andy stare at his bike like it was a two-legged dolphin was just painful, for 30 seconds.


----------



## LesDiablesRouges

People ar going after Ac becuase he's already shown dubious character in last year's race as well as this year's race. This was the topper. Menchov and Sanchez to my knowledge do not have such issues. 

This comes back to immaturity. Contador is not respected by his fellow riders enough to earn patron status. 

Had this been just about any other great champion with class they would have held off. 

As for citing Hinault you should know he's not known for his class in the TDF (see 1985 and 1986 tours as to why)

No way Merckx would attack on a mechanical rider erro or otherwise. Of course he would have attacked at the bottom and destroyed the field and caught Voeckler, but that's another story ...


----------



## otiebob

shabbasuraj said:


> Watching Andy stare at his bike like it was a two-legged dolphin was just painful, for 30 seconds.


HAHA. Actually I think he was confused because he wasn't sure how the chain hooked back up to the internal driveshaft on the cancellara-motor in his downtube.


----------



## Opus51569

Yeah, if AC wants to argue that mechanical issues are just part of racing, that's one thing. I can respect that. For him to say he didn't know...when he was behind AS at the time...doesn't pass the smell test.

On a separate but related note...I enjoyed hearing AS use the word "revenge" in is post-race interview. Tuesday and Thursday should be pretty interesting.


----------



## shabbasuraj

otiebob said:


> HAHA. Actually I think he was confused because he wasn't sure how the chain hooked back up to the internal driveshaft on the cancellara-motor in his downtube.


You have raised a good point sir.


----------



## shabbasuraj

So I guess, MENCHY and SAMMY are also classless for not waiting.... o wait... they attacked and helped too? what? .. the what?


----------



## Pablo

fornaca68 said:


> From cyclingnews.com:
> 
> "Schleck slipped his chain in the process of escaping the group of overall contenders near the top of the Porte de Balès, and Contador _*ignored one of the unwritten rules of cycling etiquette by responding and attacking the yellow jersey in his moment of difficulty*_. Rather than waiting for the Luxembourger, Contador blasted clear with Denis Menchov (Rabobank) and Samuel Sanchez (Euskaltel-Euskadi) while Schleck gave desperate pursuit on the descent to the finish."


Well, yeah. But my question is why is there this rule at all.


----------



## jptaylorsg

covenant said:


> Doing it right:
> 
> Half way into the next climb, Luz Ardiden, Armstrong's handlebar got caught in a spectator's yellow musette waving in the mid-air and he fell. Ullrich waited for Armstrong to recover.
> Germany made Ullrich sportsman of the year. Commenting on Ullrich's wait for Armstrong to recover, Dan Boyle, of the Institute for International Sport said "It was an act that will live with him forever, cynics will say he lost money, but it was a highly commendable thing that he did.


And having a spectator intefere with the race is the exact same thing as not knowing how to shift under heavy pedaling load on a steep climb?

Just saying the situations might not be EXACTLY the same.

A bad shift in a time trial can cost you several seconds. Same thing is true on a climb. Knowing how to ride your bike is an important part of racing, I think, and dumb errors shouldn't be forgiven out of hand because of the color of the jersey the guy's wearing.


----------



## MaddSkillz

*Mechanicals: They're A Part of Racing!*

This is the TdF, people! There is so much on the line. Competition isn't about giving your opponent time... There's still so many stages left in this race and Contador could run into mechanical issues himself... Or even crash... Giving someone time with so much tarmac ahead is just plain stupid.


If anything this just re-illustrates that bikes and their equipment play a huge role in cycling. It's not all about the rider. And that's one of the things I love about this sport.

I'm no Contador fan, but I certainly don't fault him for taking advantage of a situation - especially when he had time to make up.


----------



## tinkerbeast

to the people defending contador: would you rather have contador win being boo'd on the podium or like he actually deserves it? he's definitely capable of winning this tour without having to attack when schleck is of his bike... if fact he was in such a comfortable position going into the stage. just shows his win at any cost mentality similar to another much hated as$hole in the peloton


----------



## mohair_chair

Ejdo said:


> Sanchez and Menchov were going so AC kept pushing too. That said, I really dislike AC and would love to see Andy in yellow.


Considering that AC purposely let those same guys go up the road yesterday while he and Shleck dicked around, I don't think that would sound like a reasonable excuse.


----------



## yurl

I think both AS and AC lack the class of heros past. in the reverse situation i think andy would have done the same thing. both are arrogant and unsportsmanlike but at least we're going to witness one hell of a b****fight


----------



## wiles

*Opportunity*

AC missed one of the great opportunities of his career. He could have shown a respect for the history of the tour and its best behavior. If this was his 1st tour and he was young, I could forgive him. Come on. He is a 2 time winner. He may be a 7 time winner. The weight of the history of the tour is now on his shoulders. For all his faults, Lance shouldered this responsibility better. He took the opportunity to show the world the best side of our sport. I am sad Contador did not do the same. His payback will be ruthless attacks against him, no matter the mechanical, probably for the rest of his career. Especially when he is in yellow. Worth it?


----------



## LesDiablesRouges

Salsa_Lover said:


> on FR2, Fignon, Jalabert, Bosseau, Hinault all then agree there was not antisportive conduct, that a chain fault is part of the race and that the contenders don't have to pass the tour waiting for each other in case of problems.
> 
> And those know something about tradition and the Tour de France



Please ... do you not remember Hinault's actions from 1985 and 1986 TDF's? He's hardly the model of class and sporting conduct ...


----------



## covenant

jptaylorsg said:


> And having a spectator intefere with the race is the exact same thing as not knowing how to shift under heavy pedaling load on a steep climb?
> 
> Just saying the situations might not be EXACTLY the same.
> 
> A bad shift in a time trial can cost you several seconds. Same thing is true on a climb. Knowing how to ride your bike is an important part of racing, I think, and dumb errors shouldn't be forgiven out of hand because of the color of the jersey the guy's wearing.


How about riding too close to the spectators, as Lance should have known better? Or Ullrich choosing to use carbon rims knowing they were prone to braking problems at the time?


----------



## zosocane

Pablo said:


> Well, yeah. But my question is why is there this rule at all.


It's some European cycling custom I think. Chivalry and all that stuff we Americans just blow off. In this country (states), we would drop the hammer and bathe in the glory of kicking your rival when he's down and out. Like a sack-dance in the NFL. Remember Mark Gastineau?


----------



## rogger

shabbasuraj said:


> So I guess, MENCHY and SAMMY are also classless for not waiting.... o wait... they attacked and helped too? what? .. the what?


They didn't have a character asassination campaign run against them for a year or two.


----------



## CraigFavata9

shabbasuraj said:


> I can put a dropped chain back on in 7 seconds, and not 30 seconds,
> 
> Unclip, grab chain, put onto small chain ring, immediately spin the wheel, and jump back on.
> 
> I guess pro riders should learn some basic wrenching skills. /endthread


It's probably got more to do with mental strength than wrenching skills. He panicked as a potentially tour-winning moment had just turned into a potentially tour-losing moment in the space of half a second. His reaction is understandable because he's a human being and sometimes those without nerves of steel can panic in times of intense strife, but you could say that's the small difference between a winner and a runner-up.

I know you're making your point somewhat in jest, but still.


----------



## AllezCat

Salsa_Lover,
Neither rider was in yellow at that point. It was a different race and a difference set of circumstances....


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

Was it a real mechanical?

Andy missed his shift while attacking. Why is that any different than forgetting to eat or making tactical mistakes?

Second, why aren't Menchov and Sanchez being vilified here for doing the same?

For the record, it would have been nice to see them sit up a bit but I do not think he was obligated.


----------



## tinkerbeast

MaddSkillz said:


> If anything this just re-illustrates that bikes and their equipment play a huge role in cycling. It's not all about the rider. And that's one of the things I love about this sport.


its funny how this is the total opposite of what the UCI thinks...


----------



## CraigFavata9

Were the other two threads not good enough for you?


----------



## LesDiablesRouges

I'm sure it's easy to put a chain back on in 7 seconds when you're riding at 40-50% of the wattage that these guys were putting out or if you're riding Cat. 4 hill. Completely different story when you're 4km from the top of a HC category climb after 180 km of racing and producing 400+ watts with 10%+ grade


----------



## jptaylorsg

covenant said:


> How about riding too close to the spectators, as Lance should have known better? Or Ullrich choosing to use carbon rims knowing they were prone to braking problems at the time?


I agree with you that's it's a fairly dumb tradition that has way too many grey areas and allows way too much room for interpretation to actually be considered binding in any way.


----------



## Damitletsride!

fornaca68 said:


> Contador still has a lot to learn.



Agreed, what a shame.


----------



## thesmokingman

Opus51569 said:


> Yeah, if AC wants to argue that mechanical issues are just part of racing, that's one thing. I can respect that. For him to say he didn't know...when he was behind AS at the time...doesn't pass the smell test.
> 
> On a separate but related note...I enjoyed hearing AS use the word "revenge" in is post-race interview. Tuesday and Thursday should be pretty interesting.


AC is the single most misunderstood rider, or at least that's how he literally wants to portray things. He never understands his team, other riders, what's happening 2 feet from him. He knows nothing. It's just so comical, dude is an alien out there.


----------



## covenant

jptaylorsg said:


> I agree with you that's it's a fairly dumb tradition


That's your assertion, not mine. :thumbsup:


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

No More Track Stands In The Mountains!!!!!!!!!


----------



## LesDiablesRouges

jptaylorsg said:


> I agree with you that's it's a fairly dumb tradition that has way too many grey areas and allows way too much room for interpretation to actually be considered binding in any way.


What's so dumb about beating your rival by pure heart grit and determination? Unfortunately people are so corrupted by money, power etc that winning at all costs has trumped winning with integrity and class.

The point is that the TDF is supposed to be a gentleman's race where the winner wins because he's the best and beats his opponent because he is the better man.

The TDF shouldn't be decided by someone taking advantage of a crash, mechanical, etc ... 

Had AC attacked and Schleck been dropped had a mechanical afterward that's a different story than having a mechanical and having your rival see it and attack ...


----------



## MaddSkillz

tinkerbeast said:


> its funny how this is the total opposite of what the UCI thinks...


Oh yes, that organization that's decades behind... Yes it is funny. They're so silly! Hey, I wonder if they'll change their stance on disc-brakes for cyclocross bikes again? Let's make a bet!


----------



## petalpower

wiles said:


> AC missed one of the great opportunities of his career. He could have shown a respect for the history of the tour and its best behavior. If this was his 1st tour and he was young, I could forgive him. Come on. He is a 2 time winner. He may be a 7 time winner. The weight of the history of the tour is now on his shoulders. For all his faults, Lance shouldered this responsibility better. He took the opportunity to show the world the best side of our sport. I am sad Contador did not do the same. His payback will be ruthless attacks against him, no matter the mechanical, probably for the rest of his career. Especially when he is in yellow. Worth it?



I have no problem with that after today.

Especially after the IMHO B.S. interview afterward where he claimed he didn't know what happened.


----------



## bdx1366

Classless is the majority of respones on this thread.
Remove the bias from the criticism. 

It is funny how some riders get crucified for the same thing others get applauded for.


----------



## MaddSkillz

CraigFavata9 said:


> Were the other two threads not good enough for you?


Absolutely not!


----------



## nayr497

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Was it a real mechanical?
> 
> Andy missed his shift while attacking. Why is that any different than forgetting to eat or making tactical mistakes?
> 
> Second, why aren't Menchov and Sanchez being vilified here for doing the same?
> 
> For the record, it would have been nice to see them sit up a bit but I do not think he was obligated.


Part of me thinks it was lame to attack, but part of me thinks it is a race and this wasn't truly a mechanical.

Yeah^ dropping your chain on a bad shift isn't like crashing or having a flat. It's kind of like making a bad decision, yep, like forgetting to eat.

I'm not sure how I feel about this move today. Up in the air still. Either way, I'm happy for Tommy V.!


----------



## ksanbon

Go Andy*!!*!!


----------



## jptaylorsg

*Unwritten Rules of TDF Racing*

Would someone please get Alberto a copy of the unwritten rules quickly, please.

To wit:

1. Do not keep riding hard up a climb when your opponent proves incapable of operating his bicycle properly.

2. Do not - repeat - do not ride fast if a teammate is in front of you. This rule applies even if that teammate is on the team solely for the purpose of aiding in your attempt to win the bike race.

3. If you are the team leader and you lose 30 seconds on a stage, your team is no longer expected to support your efforts to win the race, and the team leadership becomes up for grabs. At that point "the strongest rider" takes leadership.

4. The second point in rule 3 about the strongest rider does not apply if you, Alberto Contador, are in fact that strongest rider on the team. You may not try to win the race by riding faster than the other riders in it.

5. You will be hated for no other reason than simply being arguably the best bicycle rider on the planet. This is just the way it is. Get used to it. Hey, at least you and Lance Armstrong finally have something to agree about.

6. The most important thing is not to win the race. The most important thing is to follow the unwritten rules of cycling.

I'm sure I'm leaving out a few.


----------



## monkeybullit

LesDiablesRouges said:


> I'm sure it's easy to put a chain back on in 7 seconds when you're riding at 40-50% of the wattage that these guys were putting out or if you're riding Cat. 4 hill. Completely different story when you're 4km from the top of a HC category climb after 180 km of racing and producing 400+ watts with 10%+ grade


Precisely, add into the equation that his adrenaline was at maximum and the sudden dissapointment of a poorly timed mechanical issue (rider error or not). Of course it would take a while to put your chain back on. If someone thinks they're superior to Schleck at putting their chain on when their heart rate is at or near maximum and needing to do it quickly, I think they're full of themselves and their ability to deal with a stressful situation. Anytime you try to do something simple in a stressful situation, it always takes longer and is more difficult than when you're calm and relaxed.

Where are the "if Andy was using Shimano/Campy, this wouldn't have happened" threads? Wait for it....


----------



## Damitletsride!

otiebob said:


> Umm, Schleck should know better than to try to shift into the big ring under extreme load uphill. User error, not a mechanical. Moreover, he was in the act of attacking so they countered- its racing. Schleck already had the whole race stopped so he could catchup via Cancellara at the beginning of the tour. How many gimmes does he get? He can't stay on his bike and he can't shift. Do you think Hinault would have waited in a case like this? I doubt it seriously. Sure, Contador could have waited as could Menchov and Sanchez but they didn't but its not the sin so many people seem to think it is...


I agree partly with what you are saying, but attacking the yellow jersey wearer when he's down is just downright rude and ignorant i think, and show's no class as a bike racer. If Contador want's to win he should beat Schleck fairly and should have left it until tomorrow or until the final time trial. I really hope the time lost in this stage doesn't end up meaning too much.


----------



## Hula Hoop

What happened was just a natrual progression of the evolution of the Tour.
Relentless, ruthless competition is outstripping the genteel sportmanship
of the past. It may be hard to swallow, but there will be more of this.


----------



## ultimobici

jptaylorsg said:


> I agree with you that's it's a fairly dumb tradition that has way too many grey areas and allows way too much room for interpretation to actually be considered binding in any way.


The way I have always understood it, it applies when the misfortune is outside the opponent's control. So a puncture or crash are incidents where one doesn't take advantage, but a fluffed gear change or not eating enough and bonking are fair game.


----------



## ttug

LesDiablesRouges said:


> Please ... do you not remember Hinault's actions from 1985 and 1986 TDF's? He's hardly the model of class and sporting conduct ...


My point exactly, why rely on the Badger for etiquette(sp?)


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

Salsa_Lover said:


> Many of you don't remember that Andy Schleck got his 30' advantage over contador during the stage on the Pavés, where Contador had a mechanical ( he had a broken spoke and had to finish the stage with the wheel rubbing the fork ),
> 
> Andy didn't wait Contador then.


No way Andy could have known about that one at the time. And it appeared that the spoke broke within the last few hundred meters. I'm speculating that if it had happened several K out (which would have resulted in a wheel change), Andy would have sat up. In the case today, the mechanical occurred right in front of Contador. No way he missed it. And reviewing the video, I think he didn't look back for two reasons - 1. He knew what happened and didn't have to. 2. Plausable deniability for the inevitable sh**storm later on.


----------



## yater

monkeybullit said:


> Precisely, add into the equation that his adrenaline was at maximum and the sudden dissapointment of a poorly timed mechanical issue (rider error or not). Of course it would take a while to put your chain back on. If someone thinks they're superior to Schleck at putting their chain on when their heart rate is at or near maximum and needing to do it quickly, I think they're full of themselves and their ability to deal with a stressful situation. Anytime you try to do something simple in a stressful situation, it always takes longer and is more difficult than when you're calm and relaxed.
> 
> ....


Anyone who's ever tried to fix a mechanical during a race knows how hard it is to get the breathing under control and make your brain work.


----------



## Ventruck

Was a bit classless, but there's more for AC to regret if he didn't do it. Maybe he was slammed at the Astana camp for not attacking yesterday when AS was waiting for the team car.

This is funny, because a lot of posters projected that AC would lose this Tour if he had a mechanical. Now, apparently, it seems that AS on the otherhand is not allowed to lose under this circumstance.


----------



## Coolhand

fornaca68 said:


> It's some European cycling custom I think. Chivalry and all that stuff we Americans just blow off. In this country (states), we would drop the hammer and bathe in the glory of kicking your rival when he's down and out. Like a sack-dance in the NFL. Remember Mark Gastineau?


Stereotypes are fun.


----------



## Coolhand

CraigFavata9 said:


> Were the other two threads not good enough for you?


The other 4 threads now.


----------



## MaddSkillz

"OMG, I Can't hang, holdz, on, I'm gonna see if I can drop my chain.... Oh Noez, my chain!!! Hold up, I needz to fix this."

"Oh Noez, my seat post dropped, hold on, guy, while I adjust this."

"Ahh a flat!!! Hold on, guy, while my team-car gets here."


----------



## ohpossum

From Velonews, Andy says:

“I’m really disappointed. My stomach is full of anger, and I want to take my revenge,” he said.

“I will take my revenge in the coming days.”

he continued, "So the next time we meet, I will not fail. I will go up to the six-fingered man and say, "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die..."


ok, I may have made up that last part 


Pistols at Dawn!


----------



## nayr497

^^^Spot on, yater! Yeah, I had to fix a flat the other week during a fast group ride that ends as a race. Around 1 hour in and 20 miles.

I'm perfectly capable of changing a flat...but when your hands and fingers are slippery from sweat, you have sweat dripping onto your already fogged shades, and you have 30 people standing around watching you, waiting to offer pointers, it makes is much more difficult. 

And yeah, my hands and arms were shaking, since my heart was racing from the riding. Wobbly knees, shaky hands. Makes things a lot more difficult. Sure putting a chain back on can take seconds, but on a climb and in the middle of the TdF as your rival rides away...your brain might pause for a bit.


----------



## 32and3cross

otiebob said:


> HAHA. Actually I think he was confused because he wasn't sure how the chain hooked back up to the internal driveshaft on the cancellara-motor in his downtube.



I wanted to make this joke somehow but could not figure out how to do it, nice job.


----------



## gamara

Fair shmair. Contador simply doesn't have the same form as last year so if he wants to win, he's going to have to play dirty. Obviously he doesn't mind playing dirty. 

BTW all the commentators on Eurosport including Sean Kelly noted that AC clearly saw that AS had a mechanical & instead chose the unsportsmanlike act of attacking. My favorite quote is from Cadel: "I'm not the type of rider that likes to kick a man when he's down."
True words spoken from a true world champion.


----------



## nayr497

rydbyk said:


> I see BOTH sides.... Sucks for Schleck...I DO know that. Schleck better do the best TT of his life now! I like Andy a lot...but he spent WAY too much time simply putting his chain back on...that should take no more than 5-10 seconds...
> 
> ANYONE KNOW HOW HIS BIKE'S REAR TIRE WENT AIRBORNE?? WEIRD.


Good question. I've had my drivetrain lock up making it impossible to pedal when I've thrown the chain to the inside, getting it caught between the inner ring and the chain stay.

I thought Schleck threw his to the outside, right? If so, I'm also confused how he locked up and wheelied the rear.

I'm sure someone will clear this up:thumbsup:


----------



## MaddSkillz

Coolhand said:


> The other 4 threads now.


They scream of anti-Contador bias and are championed by those that think double rainbows are so intense and view the world with with rose-colored jawbones.

I had to inject some reality.


----------



## ttug

*not quite*



fornaca68 said:


> It's some European cycling custom I think. Chivalry and all that stuff we Americans just blow off. In this country (states), we would drop the hammer and bathe in the glory of kicking your rival when he's down and out. Like a sack-dance in the NFL. Remember Mark Gastineau?


It is present in other races besides the TDF and its a custom that was honored for many years. If a champion was retiring, there was the obligatory stage gift etc etc. BUT the idea, as I have understood it since 1976, was to demonstarte tha you wear the yellow because you are the best. Proving you are the best meant, just that, to take advantage of a mechanical on a Mountain stage, or while abother is heeding the call of nature has been traditionally considered bad form. There have been protests where the violator wins the race, but all other participants roll in slowly. Hollow victory

As to American Football, this does not apply at all with the vague exceoption of Joe Namath and his knees. Hitting his knees was frowned upon at least at that time. There is no correlation other than that at least IMHO

OR the most modern and popular example, the Disney Movie Cars. I mean hey, Lightning McQueen has the race...and what did he do?


----------



## thesmokingman

ohpossum said:


> From Velonews, Andy says:
> 
> “I’m really disappointed. My stomach is full of anger, and I want to take my revenge,” he said.
> 
> “I will take my revenge in the coming days.”
> 
> he continued, "So the next time we meet, I will not fail. I will go up to the six-fingered man and say, "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die..."
> 
> 
> ok, I may have made up that last part
> 
> 
> Pistols at Dawn!


You had me going there for a second with that last part! Inconceivable!


----------



## jptaylorsg

ultimobici said:


> The way I have always understood it, it applies when the misfortune is outside the opponent's control. So a puncture or crash are incidents where one doesn't take advantage, but a fluffed gear change or not eating enough and bonking are fair game.


Judging by the bile that's being thrown around, you and I both understood it wrong.

I'm pretty much on record with the opinion that it would have been a class move to sit up and let Andy catch up, but he was by no means obliged to do so. And not doing it doesn't taint his result at all.


----------



## Opus51569

jptaylorsg said:


> I agree with you that's it's a fairly dumb tradition that has way too many grey areas and allows way too much room for interpretation to actually be considered binding in any way.


I thought that when Cancellara organized the "slow down" earlier in the race. There are a number of TdF traditions that I think are silly. But there they are and if you violate them you can pretty much count on half the people crying "foul".

As a hypothetical, let me ask this. What if AS hadn't just dropped his chain? What if it had snapped and instead of it taking 20 seconds it had taken 2 or 3 or 4 minutes for him to get back on a bike? Should the leaders have waited for him then?


----------



## ttug

*pardon*



MaddSkillz said:


> They scream of anti-Contador bias and are championed by those that think double rainbows are so intense and view the world with with rose-colored jawbones.
> 
> I had to inject some reality.


I have followed profession cycling since 1976. I understood that the greatest race should have the greatest ethics. Its an honor to even be in the race.


----------



## Keeping up with Junior

*Craps*



jptaylorsg said:


> I'm sure I'm leaving out a few.


7. If you are near the finish and don't think you have the legs to stick with the next attack simply muff a shift and drop your chain. The other riders will be shamed into wait for you.


----------



## MaddSkillz

ttug said:


> I have followed profession cycling since 1976. I understood that the greatest race should have the greatest ethics. Its an honor to even be in the race.


But you see, I don't see making up time due to mechanical issues being unethical. "Wait for me, guy, since my bike, my components, my mechanic or even myself caused this, you need to now risk your race too."

Yeah, that's just dumb. It's like we're so much into this "class" thing, that we can't see that this makes absolutely no sense. Especially in the super-bowl of cycling with so much on the line. Your failure, no matter what kind of failure it is, should not put my race at risk. Period.

It's like you want to pretend bikes and their components aren't a part of this race. If you want to eliminate the equipment, take up running or swimming.


----------



## Lazy Spinner

The problem with any rider blatantly disregarding the traditional unwritten rules is that it eventually leads to chaos. This, Renshaw's head butting, etc. will lead to coarser behavior down the road. Look at American sports and soccer where guys get contracts for their reputations as dirty players.

Do any of us really want to see the day where teams start using domestiques as enforcers or to create havoc to aid their GC man? Here's a hypothetical, Schleck and Contador are battling up an HC mountaintop finish like Alpe d'Huez in a close Tour. Riis wants to give Andy the best chance of winning the stage and putting major time into AC. Per prior plan and since they are at low speeds, Frank or Voight "accidentally" touch wheels with AC on switchback #8 putting him on the ground while Andy launches an attack. Having lost all momentum and precious seconds on the ground, AC cannot possibly ride himself back into the race. 

Better yet, an overexcited "drunk" fan with a Spanish flag really in the employ of Riis gets tangled up with AC and his bike while running alongside him. That's really unfortunate but Andy had no choice but to keep going for the win.

Whatever it takes to win, right? If you're not cheating then you're not trying, right?


----------



## Bikeauger

MaddSkillz said:


> They scream of anti-Contador bias and are championed by those that think double rainbows are so intense and view the world with with rose-colored jawbones.
> 
> I had to inject some reality.


I guess some people just like the idea of a race being one on true merit and not decided by a mechanical issue. Mechanical issues can be neutralized in a race (waiting for the yellow) while the actual athleticism and tactics of the TdF can't (Schleck and Contador making the hills look flat).


----------



## wooglin

nayr497 said:


> Good question. I've had my drivetrain lock up making it impossible to pedal when I've thrown the chain to the inside, getting it caught between the inner ring and the chain stay.
> 
> I thought Schleck threw his to the outside, right? If so, I'm also confused how he locked up and wheelied the rear.
> 
> I'm sure someone will clear this up:thumbsup:


Weight forward + suddenly no pedal resistance while pedaling hard = nose wheelie. SS MTBers do it often enough to have a name for it. The uphill endo.


----------



## coreyb

ultimobici said:


> The way I have always understood it, it applies when the misfortune is outside the opponent's control. So a puncture or crash are incidents where one doesn't take advantage, but a fluffed gear change or not eating enough and bonking are fair game.


As has been mentioned(this thread? one of the 800 other threads about the matter?), not all crashes are "outside the opponents control". The line and speed a rider chooses for a corner is often within their control, but when it put Ulrich in a ditch Armstrong waited.


----------



## yater

nayr497 said:


> Good question. I've had my drivetrain lock up making it impossible to pedal when I've thrown the chain to the inside, getting it caught between the inner ring and the chain stay.
> 
> I thought Schleck threw his to the outside, right? If so, I'm also confused how he locked up and wheelied the rear.
> 
> I'm sure someone will clear this up:thumbsup:


I'd guess that the rear derailleur got sucked up into the cassette (chain slipped off of pulley). This will cause the drivetrain to lock up and will dump the chain in the front....I've done it. It can be caused by bad shifting or hitting a bump.


----------



## evs

*Does this comparison work?*

As in Formulas 1 racing, if a driver mishifts, (driver error) is the other driver supposed to slow down because of the others mistake. Tradition be damned. There is no other sport that does this. Isn't that why this are various companies for bikes and components. The racers decide what's best for them. Just like racing cars. If the guy is an idiot and misshifts he gets whats coming to him. Bikes are part of the race. What would be the difference if he picked a wrong gear and AC rode away from him. It's basically the same thing. He picked a wrong gear and payed the price. It's not like a dog came out and ran in to him. AS made the mistake himself. Being in oxygen debt is part of the race. Can your brain work and do this or do that when you need it to. That's part of the race, the human element? If you take the wrong line or misshift, what's the difference?


----------



## harlond

ttug said:


> My point exactly, why rely on the Badger for etiquette(sp?)


OK, but on what basis are you writing off the opinions of Fignon and Jalabert?


----------



## jptaylorsg

Lazy Spinner said:


> The problem with any rider blatantly disregarding the traditional unwritten rules is that it eventually leads to chaos. This, Renshaw's head butting, etc. will lead to coarser behavior down the road. Look at American sports and soccer where guys get contracts for their reputations as dirty players.
> 
> Do any of us really want to see the day where teams start using domestiques as enforcers or to create havoc to aid their GC man? Here's a hypothetical, Schleck and Contador are battling up an HC mountaintop finish like Alpe d'Huez in a close Tour. Riis wants to give Andy the best chance of winning the stage and putting major time into AC. Per prior plan and since they are at low speeds, Frank or Voight "accidentally" touch wheels with AC on switchback #8 putting him on the ground while Andy launches an attack. Having lost all momentum and precious seconds on the ground, AC cannot possibly ride himself back into the race.
> 
> Better yet, an overexcited "drunk" fan with a Spanish flag really in the employ of Riis gets tangled up with AC and his bike while running alongside him. That's really unfortunate but Andy had no choice but to keep going for the win.
> 
> Whatever it takes to win, right? If you're not cheating then you're not trying, right?


The problem with slippery slope arguments is you can extrapolate a series of "what ifs?" that could propel any situation into chaos. That doesn't make it them valid arguments.

The problem with unwritten rules is that they're unwritten for a reason - they're not real rules.

Sure, it would have been gracious and classy for him to sit up and wait. 
Is he evil for not doing it, and is the peleton doomed to become Rollerball? Not so much


----------



## natedg200202

Keeping up with Junior said:


> 7. If you are near the finish and don't think you have the legs to stick with the next attack simply muff a shift and drop your chain. The other riders will be shamed into wait for you.


Good sportsmanship goes *both ways*. Muffing shifts to get your opponents to slow is just as bad as attacking your nearest rival when they have a mechanical. Bottom line: Alberto Cun%ador will eventually reap what he sows.


----------



## root

nayr497 said:


> Good question. I've had my drivetrain lock up making it impossible to pedal when I've thrown the chain to the inside, getting it caught between the inner ring and the chain stay.
> 
> I thought Schleck threw his to the outside, right? If so, I'm also confused how he locked up and wheelied the rear.
> 
> I'm sure someone will clear this up:thumbsup:


Probably noticed that his chain fell off and slammed the front brake. I do that too but I usually slam both brakes.


----------



## bas

MaddSkillz said:


> This is the TdF, people! There is so much on the line. Competition isn't about giving your opponent time... There's still so many stages left in this race and Contador could run into mechanical issues himself... Or even crash... Giving someone time with so much tarmac ahead is just plain stupid.
> 
> 
> If anything this just re-illustrates that bikes and their equipment play a huge role in cycling. It's not all about the rider. And that's one of the things I love about this sport.
> 
> I'm no Contador fan, but I certainly don't fault him for taking advantage of a situation - especially when he had time to make up.


You don't attack the yellow jersey unless it is fair and square. Cycling code.


----------



## mohair_chair

Are you talking about robots?


----------



## KMan

*wrong...in my opinion*



Salsa_Lover said:


> Contador didn't saw the malfunction, when you see the video, he attacks and passes Andy and only notice the mechanical later, then he looks puzzled looking back, but the others went with him and he can't just let 3 and 4 go on and he wait for 1.


of course I wasn't there, but Andy was pretty much going backwards before Conti passed him, that is why he looked like his attack was so strong....but in reality, he was passing a stationary object. He saw what was going on and attacked. Played dumb at the end to make it seem like what he did was ok.

General rule of the Tour is when Yellow has a mechanical or crash, you don't attack. Even Vino knew this and appeared to be waiting.


----------



## ultimobici

natedg200202 said:


> Good sportsmanship goes *both ways*. Muffing shifts to get your opponents to slow is just as bad as attacking your nearest rival when they have a mechanical. Bottom line: Alberto Cun%ador will eventually reap what he sows.


Ask Kelly and Lemond about that one!!
1986 MSR, Kelly fluffed a gear change to force Lemond ahead of him on one of the capi along the Ligurian coast. Kelly was able to sit on Lemond and outsprint him for the win.


----------



## ttug

*think about it*



harlond said:


> OK, but on what basis are you writing off the opinions of Fignon and Jalabert?


Jalabert, who was a known great sprinter until.....thats right, a wreck he caused which nearly killed him, he was too aggressive. Fignon, another agressive rider.

NOT the person who you rely on


----------



## natedg200202

MaddSkillz said:


> There's still so many stages left in this race and Contador could run into mechanical issues himself...


Exactly the reason you don't want to attack your rival when they have a mechanical.


----------



## Pablo

Bocephus Jones II said:


> It's tradition. Riders with class respect these traditions and rats arses like Contador ignore the traditions.


Well, why is it a good tradition? Al the answers seem to be, in essence, "he should have waited because he should have waited." It comes across a vacuous.


----------



## KMan

*not in yellow*



HeluvaSkier said:


> Was AC's move any different from the big pull that Saxo put on the front when LA flatted on the cobbles?


Lance wan't in yellow....big difference there


----------



## LostViking

I'm a Saxo fan - but don't see anything wrong with what AC did.

In an ideal world - AC would have pulled over and helped Andy get his chain back on - would have made him a hero in my book!

But he took advantage of the situation and raced ahead - in the real world, that makes you a winner. 

As much as I would like to, I can't fault AC for what he did.


----------



## evs

*Why is human error a mechanical?*

It's not a flat or broken chain. It's not slipping on oil on the road. AS did this to himself. Why is everyone saying it was a mechanical? Nothing broke or flatted. He made the mistake all by himself and paid for it. Isn't part of racing the human element. How ones mind works under pressure. He f'ed up big time for what ever reason. BUT it was a HUMAN ERROR NOT A MECHANICAL. Nothing was broken......


----------



## rogger

ultimobici said:


> Ask Kelly and Lemond about that one!!
> 1986 MSR, Kelly fluffed a gear change to force Lemond ahead of him on one of the capi along the Ligurian coast. Kelly was able to sit on Lemond and outsprint him for the win.


Didn't he know that cycling is a gentlemans' sport? I'm sure he got scolded for that one rather heavily.


----------



## Hawayyan

I feel that if the shoe were on the other foot, some would be saying "oh my God, that is the opening that AS needed. He made up the time he needed for the ITT, WHAT A RACE!!!

Would this thread really be called, "Schleck, what a d!ck!!!!!!!!!, and would he be inheriting the utter hatred that is being rained down upon Contador?


----------



## ultimobici

rogger said:


> Didn't he know that cycling is a gentlemans' sport? I'm sure he got scolded for that one rather heavily.


No complaint that I heard of. Lemond just figured that he'd been beaten by a wilier rider.


----------



## petalpower

root said:


> Probably noticed that his chain fell off and slammed the front brake. I do that too but I usually slam both brakes.


It was the abrupt stoppage of the drive-train, and from my view at the crank end, that cause the rear wheel to lift.


----------



## rogger

ultimobici said:


> No complaint that I heard of. Lemond just figured that he'd been beaten by a wilier rider.


Ah, if only the vulgus had access to the internet back then...


----------



## Bry03cobra

Hopefuly Cav will take out contadoper, or maybe a headbutt. He and his HTC teamates are good at that.


----------



## LostViking

Don't know which thread of the many to reply to, so am replying to all:

I'm a Saxo fan - but I have no problem with what AC did. If it was AC on the recieveing end of that piece of bad luck, I'd expect Andy to take advantage as well.

Would have been a great piece of sportsmanship for AC to pull over and wait for Andy to sort things out - but not realistic.

Also - would Menchov and Sanchez have waited as well? Somehow I doubt it.

Looking forward to tommorrow's stage as Andy is screaming for vengence!


----------



## joep721

I like Kloden's remarks in twitter: "Bad luck for Andy. He had technical problems. Wasn't a nice move from Alberto on this moment. But this is cycling now :-("

I always thought the essense of the tradition was to win mano e mano.


----------



## harlond

ttug said:


> Jalabert, who was a known great sprinter until.....thats right, a wreck he caused which nearly killed him, he was too aggressive. Fignon, another agressive rider.
> 
> NOT the person who you rely on


Jalabert was nearly killed when a gendarme stepped into the roadway to take a picture during the final sprint. Jalabert did not cause that crash.

Begin aggressive is not the same thing as begin unsportsmanlike. Do you have any examples of Fignon or Jalabert engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct? 

I'm not saying I agree with Fignon and Jalabert, but I do think their opinions are worthy of consideration, even if Hinault's is not.


----------



## light_monkey

*+1*



fornaca68 said:


> This is why Contador will never be a "patron" like Cancellara is becoming. Contador would have heard on race radio about Schleck's malfunction -- it's up to Contador to show leadership and tell Sanchez and Menchov to hold off. He can't just say I had no choice and needed to follow their wheels. A lot to learn ...
> 
> Listening to the Eurosport audio coverage ... Bert is being booed by the French crowd.


Not knowing about it is a silly excuse at best. They all have radio, don't they?


----------



## godot

I heard that SRAM has an exploding chain link controlled by a button on the brifter. Rider gets dropped on climb, hit button. Everyone has to wait until he gets a new bike. Although the other riders get suspicious after 4 or 5 stops on one climb.


----------



## cpark

bas said:


> You don't attack the yellow jersey unless it is fair and square. Cycling code.



Not supposed to attack in the feed zone either, but some do anyway.
That's life....
For what is worth, it will make next few days more interesting.


----------



## jptaylorsg

*Look at the Bright Side*

Whatever you think of what went down on the climb today, at least it should mark the end of the Andy and Bert mutual admiration society.

No more watching them ride up the hills (or on the flats) hand-in-hand exchanging recipes.


----------



## evs

*Luck?*

Luck? that he misshifted. Luck that his stuff wasn't setup right. Luck that he misshifted at one of the most important pressure induced climbs of his life. Yeah, luck......


----------



## JoelS

He should have waited so that he could beat AS fairly, not take advantage of a mechanical. No way to find out who the better rider really is in the way it fell out today.

On the other hand, now AS is going to be really mad. I expect he'll be pushing AC super hard tomorrow. It'll be great to watch.


----------



## rogger

What I like about the classics is that there is none of this nancy whining about waiting for anyone. When you flat, you're f*cked. When you drop a chain, you're f*cked. When you f*ck up, you're f*cked. HTFU.


----------



## kiroskka

evs said:


> It's not a flat or broken chain. It's not slipping on oil on the road. AS did this to himself. Why is everyone saying it was a mechanical? Nothing broke or flatted. He made the mistake all by himself and paid for it. Isn't part of racing the human element. How ones mind works under pressure. He f'ed up big time for what ever reason. BUT it was a HUMAN ERROR NOT A MECHANICAL. Nothing was broken......


So, when you are unable to pedal forward, you do not have a mechanical issue?

A mechanical is a mechanical, even if it was caused by pilot error.


----------



## LostViking

A lot of threads on this! Hope we can hone it down to just one.

AC did what he had to do (I'm a Saxo fan by the way) and I would have expected Andy to do the same if thier roles had been reversed.
Totally unrealistic to expect AC to stop racing because Andy popped his chain - AC would have been a hero if he had done so - but it is not realistic to expect this. Would the guys in 3rd and 4th have waited for them? etc. etc. etc.

BTW - Did Lance win seven times by being a good guy?

TdF is a winner take all race - no jersey for "Overall Goodguy" - Jens V. would take that everytime anyway!


----------



## Caine

evs said:


> As in Formulas 1 racing, if a driver mishifts, (driver error) is the other driver supposed to slow down because of the others mistake. Tradition be damned. There is no other sport that does this. Isn't that why this are various companies for bikes and components. The racers decide what's best for them. Just like racing cars. If the guy is an idiot and misshifts he gets whats coming to him. Bikes are part of the race. What would be the difference if he picked a wrong gear and AC rode away from him. It's basically the same thing. He picked a wrong gear and payed the price. It's not like a dog came out and ran in to him. AS made the mistake himself. Being in oxygen debt is part of the race. Can your brain work and do this or do that when you need it to. That's part of the race, the human element? If you take the wrong line or misshift, what's the difference?


No, your comparison does not work. After the fact, I'm sure you can see that you failed in your attempt to seem as though you really thought about what you were posting.

Can those calling AC's move a good one not acknowledge that tradition, etiquette and "class" are at the root of what makes this sport and the Grand Tours great?


----------



## TmaxR

"Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble.
An if I stay it will be double.
So come on let me know,
Should I stay or should I go?"

-- The Clash


----------



## Guest

I have as much distain for the group riding with Contador as Contador himself. 

That said, you lead from the front, ie. Contador should have slowed out of respect for the Yellow Jersey, and the others should have followed his lead. Had they not, I'd have been fine with Contador taking off. The group did follow Contador's lead, but it was a dishonorable lead IMO.

Things happen in the heat of the moment. Contador and steadier minds in the team cars had time to reflect on his/their actions after the heat of the moment. The lead group had 20+ minutes to reconsider their actions......................and they continued to ride away.

With his TT abilities vs. AS, baring any unseen problems, I believe AC effectively won the tour today. If he, his teammates, sponsors and fans are proud of how it was accomplished, so be it. 

Today will define AC and AS for me. Am looking for Mr. Contador to sprout wiskers through the rest of the Tour, with long stuble by Paris. Who needs to be able to look in the mirror when you have a third tour victory.


----------



## evs

*You got me...I*

was getting carried away. I should have said human induced mechanical. I take it back. But if any man fs up like because of his misgivings that he should only think that he will lose time, no?


----------



## MaddSkillz

bas said:


> You don't attack the yellow jersey unless it is fair and square. Cycling code.



Oh brother... It's like you never heard of EPO. Where's that in cycling code?

Here's news. No race is fair. Some teams are stacked, some have more money, some have better managers, some riders are just better. 

I'm all for code, but not when it doesn't make any sense.


----------



## firstrax

32and3cross said:


> Lance only used a DT shifter on the front and then only to save weight, nothing to do with performance.


I always assumed it was about being able to adjust the trim.


----------



## kpbrian

wooglin said:


> Weight forward + suddenly no pedal resistance while pedaling hard = nose wheelie. SS MTBers do it often enough to have a name for it. The uphill endo.


exactly


----------



## aengbretson

My take on it is that Contador attacked. It would have been pretty hard to miss the sound and visual of Schleck's chain getting jammed. It was pretty obvious. Yes AS was stopped, but AC kept on powering at the head of his group. It would have been something else Menchov or Sanchez attacked and AC went with them (simply protecting himself against them, in which case SS or DM would have been "in the wrong"), but it looked like he actually _tried_ to take advantage of AS's misfortune.

I feel for AS, because he did look like the stronger rider today. I was getting a little worried when all of his teammates were gone and Astana still had 3 guys around AC, but his performance was impressive, surging past riders to try and get back to where he had been. Unlucky for him, looks like AC has another tour wrapped up (if he stays out of trouble).


----------



## adimiro

evs said:


> Luck? that he misshifted. Luck that his stuff wasn't setup right. Luck that he misshifted at one of the most important pressure induced climbs of his life. Yeah, luck......


LUCK!! The new buzz word in this tour...Agree that all good or bad things that have transpired are chalked up to LUCK.

There's a gret quote out there that says (paraphrasing)..."Good luck happens to those that are well prepared" If I find it, I'll post the exact pharase.


----------



## jptaylorsg

adimiro said:


> LUCK!! The new buzz word in this tour...Agree that all good or bad things that have transpired are chalked up to LUCK.
> 
> There's a gret quote out there that says (paraphrasing)..."Good luck happens to those that are well prepared" If I find it, I'll post the exact pharase.


Here's a hint. It's a John Wooden quote, I believe.


----------



## karatemom

I 'm somewhat perplexed as to why people hate AC. I thought he dealt with the team from hell last year fairly gracefully, considering Lance was an unrelenting dick to him. Where's the class in that? AC is young and seems to be insecure, and yes, it would have been nice if he had at least stopped attacking, but that's bike racing.


----------



## weltyed

fornaca68 said:


> Contador still has a lot to learn.


hilarious. i dont think a lot of people got this.


----------



## jptaylorsg

billium said:


> With his TT abilities vs. AS, baring any unseen problems, I believe AC effectively won the tour today. If he, his teammates, sponsors and fans are proud of how it was accomplished, so be it.


So if he puts 2 minutes into AS in the ITT and wins by 2:20 or so, today's stage will have been the day he won the Tour? The day he took the yellow, yes, but not the only reason he won the Tour (which he hasn't done yet - it's not inconceivable Schleck could gap him on Tourmalet).


----------



## dreww

I read 6 pages and no one comments on AS's ability (or lack of) to descend...

Yes he lost 13 seconds on the climb, but another 20 on the descent, and he nearly ran off the road at the chicane section.

Fignon mentioned on Saturday ? that his descending skills were questionable.

Would he have stayed with, AS, Menchov and specially Sanchez if he ahd not been dropped?? he can climb but he does not look smooth on the descents.

Just my 2 cents..


----------



## huez

fornaca68 said:


> It's some European cycling custom I think. Chivalry and all that stuff we Americans just blow off. In this country (states), we would drop the hammer and bathe in the glory of kicking your rival when he's down and out. Like a sack-dance in the NFL. Remember Mark Gastineau?



What? No, it's called sportsmanship. It's not chivalry. Who wants to win while kicking your opponent during a quick moment of misfortune? A true champion wants a fair battle.

Lance waited for Ullrich, Tyler slowed down the climbers when Lance crashed. Americans have sportsmanship. It appears that some Spaniards do not.


----------



## Rsix

Damitletsride! said:


> A decent rider would have waited up for Schleck.
> 
> All I can say is, I hope you have a mechanical in the final time trial, what goes around comes around.


I agree!! +1


----------



## evs

*I understand about tradition ect....*

but please help me understand better. When something like this happens to the yellow shirt, the wearer should be given a "do over" because they made a mistake at the ultimate time they should not have? Especially when one is red lining on a climb and momentum is so important.
It's not like this happened on the flats during an early part of the stage. It was in the heat of battle.


----------



## jptaylorsg

dreww said:


> I read 6 pages and no one comments on AS's ability (or lack of) to descend...
> 
> Yes he lost 13 seconds on the climb, but another 20 on the descent, and he nearly ran off the road at the chicane section.
> 
> Fignon mentioned on Saturday ? that his descending skills were questionable.
> 
> Would he have stayed with, AS, Menchov and specially Sanchez if he ahd not been dropped?? he can climb but he does not look smooth on the descents.
> 
> Just my 2 cents..


For the record, descents are usually easier as part of a group, it seems. It's pretty likely that if he had been with them as the descent started, he would have hung with them.

Remember the other day when Sammy couldn't catch Andy and AC on the descent, and Sammy's a great descender.


----------



## MaddSkillz

So if someone crashes, are we supposed to pull over and wait for em? 

Can someone check that in their cycling code book for me?

Thanks!


----------



## huez

MaddSkillz said:


> So if someone crashes, are we supposed to pull over and wait for em?
> 
> Can someone check that in their cycling code book for me?
> 
> Thanks!



depends, but when it's one on one (yes it was) on a climb you don't sprint away while your rival is off his bike putting his chain on. D I C K move.

It's all about having a mano a mano battle being fair. Stage 3 for example wasn't a mano a mano battle.


----------



## terzo rene

I agree that this wasn't a mechanical. He jammed the chain - either shifting into the big ring or because he was cross chained and the big ring grabbed the chain and jammed it on the front derailleur - and he threw the chain trying to unjam it. He stopped and put it back on in same gear combination and promptly repeated the drop. The third try he put it onto the big ring and no more problem. That isn't a mechanical (I though I suspect a mechanic is going to get an earful tonight anyway).

I don't think AC knew what happened until later. After the initial attack he really looked like he couldn't decide what to do, looking back repeatedly and not going full bore, until Menchov and Sanchez started pushing it and he decided to go for it in the last km of the climb and even more on the descent.

However I'm sure the DS told Schleck it was a total jerk move just to get him, and keep him, mad and I doubt that story is going to change until after the Tour.

Tomorrow I think Schleck will go early on the last climb and catch up to an LA led early break and try to beat AC on the long flat to the finish - and give LA the stage win. You heard it here first. lol


----------



## den bakker

rogger said:


> What I like about the classics is that there is none of this nancy whining about waiting for anyone. When you flat, you're f*cked. When you drop a chain, you're f*cked. When you f*ck up, you're f*cked. HTFU.


which by the way way was how chavanel was dropped on the cobbles. If only I could remember which team it was who took advantage of the crashes, mechanical and holdups on the cobbles.


----------



## cyclejim

Because its an unwritten rule in a gentlemans sport, you know as well as I do you wont find the rule anywhere. 

Its a judgement call by the riders, I personally think it was a cheap move but ultimately AC will be judged by his peers and fans and will live by his decision. 

Paybacks are a ***** though.


----------



## Len J

Looked to me like Andy had attacked and Contador was having trouble responding..........

I think Contador attacked because he knew he needed to.

Classless, IMO. 

As to Menchov & Sanchez...if you watch, contador is ahead of them and attacking, not following. If he truly was a Patron', he could have held them both up until ANDY caught on.

Len


----------



## jptaylorsg

huez said:


> depends, but when it's one on one (yes it was) on a climb you don't sprint away while your rival is off his bike putting his chain on. D I C K move.
> 
> It's all about having a mano a mano battle being fair. Stage 3 for example wasn't a mano a mano battle.


But to take your argument to a logical extreme, it was fair. The better man should be expected to properly ride his bike up the hill. The chain didn't break, he caused it to come off by cross-shifting under heavy pedal load. We've all done it. It's a beginner's mistake and was probably brought on in a moment of stress or panic.

Alberto didn't throw his chain, and he got over the climb first. Good for him.

Can't we all agree that this was rider error and not a "mechanical"?


----------



## cyclejim

From cyclingnews: 

"**** happens, what can I say. He went full gas when he saw that I had a mechanical," said Schleck. "It's not up to me to decide but I would not have attacked the yellow jersey. I would not attack the race leader like that. If he would have dropped me it wouldn't have been a problem for me, but not this way.

"I guess we all have different cultures. Personally I wouldn't ride like that. My stomach is full of anger. I'm going to take my revenge on the Tourmalet."

Although it seemed as if Schleck had his mechanical when he switched gears, the now former yellow jersey said he didn't know what happened. "I don't know the reason, I only know that I dropped the chain," said Schleck. "I wasn't happy, of course. It is how it is. That's cycling."

Schleck reached the top of the Port de Balès trailing the Contador group by fifteen seconds. Despite his lesser skills in descending compared to a rider like Samuel Sanchez (Euskaltel-Euskadi) who was with Contador in front, Schleck lost only twenty-five more seconds in the descent; it might have been the best descent of his career.

"I had to go fast in the downhill and take some risks," Schleck said. "Although I'm angry now, we've got to keep our heads cool. It's still a bike race."


----------



## Damitletsride!

dreww said:


> I read 6 pages and no one comments on AS's ability (or lack of) to descend...
> 
> Yes he lost 13 seconds on the climb, but another 20 on the descent, and he nearly ran off the road at the chicane section.
> 
> Fignon mentioned on Saturday ? that his descending skills were questionable.
> 
> Would he have stayed with, AS, Menchov and specially Sanchez if he ahd not been dropped?? he can climb but he does not look smooth on the descents.
> 
> Just my 2 cents..


Ye Schleck was the only rider doing any work in his group on the descent, so of course he was going to tire and be a bit slower. If he was with Contador for the descent in a group i doubt he would have got dropped.


----------



## Keeping up with Junior

*Lucky*



evs said:


> Luck? that he misshifted. Luck that his stuff wasn't setup right. Luck that he misshifted at one of the most important pressure induced climbs of his life. Yeah, luck......


Luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity. 

AC had some good luck in being prepared and getting an opportunity. AS had some bad luck because he either did not have his bike setup right or his shifting skills under pressure practiced and thus gave up a great opportunity.


----------



## huez

jptaylorsg said:


> But to take your argument to a logical extreme, it was fair. The better man should be expected to properly ride his bike up the hill. The chain didn't break, he caused it to come off by cross-shifting under heavy pedal load. We've all done it. It's a beginner's mistake and was probably brought on in a moment of stress or panic.
> 
> Alberto didn't throw his chain, and he got over the climb first. Good for him.
> 
> Can't we all agree that this was rider error and not a "mechanical"?



A champion wants to win because he's stronger.

Besides, I don't think Andy was even shifting when this happened.

watch his shifter hand closely at 44 seconds and then watch at 48 to see what a shift looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP9OR-Pz2Yk


----------



## MaddSkillz

rogger said:


> What I like about the classics is that there is none of this nancy whining about waiting for anyone. When you flat, you're f*cked. When you drop a chain, you're f*cked. When you f*ck up, you're f*cked. HTFU.


Yup, and that's racing! This crap about trying to eliminate the bicycle aspect of our sport just doesn't make any sense to me. Why are they even cycling fans then? They should take up running or swimming where it's more just about the athlete.


----------



## Len J

shabbasuraj said:


> I can put a dropped chain back on in 7 seconds, and not 30 seconds,
> 
> Unclip, grab chain, put onto small chain ring, immediately spin the wheel, and jump back on.
> 
> I guess pro riders should learn some basic wrenching skills. /endthread


On a 9% gradee, and accelerate to your attackers speed....yea sure.   

Len


----------



## Kaleo

Well this stage sure lit up the board, obviously a very emotional response to the incident. I am not fan of Contador, but as a couple other stated, I can't help but wonder how AS would have reacted if the tables were turned. Would he have sat up and NOT continued to attack AC? Some how I doubt it... so would it be okay for the yellow Jersey attack the nearest contender? It's a fine line the question of ethics here... I think people just find AC despicable...


----------



## FlandersFields

I'm no AC fan at all. But he shouldn't have waited, c'mon guys. This is road cycling, not some (American :aureola: ) over regulated sport.

Oh, guess I won't install SRAM on my bike


----------



## Travis

watch the video and you will see he hit something in the road causing his back wheel to jump which threw the chain. I don't think he was shifting. AC is a classless clown!


----------



## Perico

A few comments:

1) The TT comparison is asinine since the riders are not riding with one another.

2) AS comments on Versus showed the class he has

3) Just saw the Contador interview and he says he never saw it until after he was ahead and admitted it was a mechanical.

4) If you watch the video there is no way AC did not know that Schleck had a mechanical. He was far enough back, he was attacking to get back to him looking at him and did he really think AS popped that badly after just drilling him all the way up the climb without going into the red?

5) Vino saw it and knew what happened yet did nothing. I seem to recall other riders helping to get the leaders together when incidents happen to the mailliot jeune or the top contendors, in the past.


----------



## mikeman

What if a sprinter fluffs a shift and loses? Do they get a do over? How about if AS legs had locked up due to riding too big a gear and he is slowed dramtically until he can get in a reasonable gear? Do you wait then? Should there be a unwritten cycling rules protocol commissare on the road sorting these things out, issuing do-overs whenever such a scenario occurs? 

I think the fluffed gear change is akin to making tactical or even strategic errors, part of the game. When the sun gets in the eyes of the leftfielder, who does not know to shield the sun from his eyes using his glove and getting a safer angle to view the ball from and it lands for a hit, should we have an unwritten fairness do-over?

Face it Andy fluffed the shift. He should be angry at himself for screwing up under pressure.


----------



## goloso

*Haters gonna hate...*

I totally get the not attacking someone who crashes agreement. That is sensible because often one is the victim of a crash without causing it. But to heap all this hate on AC just sounds like sour grapes. Look at the chain of events,,

AS attacks and AC is caught out, Vino covers.

AC responds and catches Vino and AS, Others in the group begin attacking

AS drops his chain while I assume he was looking for a bigger gear which is completely his fault. He has trouble getting it back on and has to dismount again.

AC rides away continually looking back. I assume wondering what happened to AS

AS gets some mighty long pushes from a fan and neutral support


I just don't see the big deal. I am all for protocol but having the yellow jersey should entitle the wearer to screw up without consequences? Is it OK to attack the yellow jersey if he bonks? 

AC is like the terminator out there. He is focused on winning the overall and does what he needs to do. If that hurts Vino, Lance's or Andy's feelings, too bad that's racing.


----------



## foofighter

it's a tough call because (and there's a lot of IF's here) if AC had sat up and waited and DM and SS didnt then both AS AC would be in jeopardy of their podium spot. It's easy to make judgement calls after the fact when you're not there and you werent in the heat of battle. 

Whatever the case maybe this is WWF/WWE now it's going to be fireworks between the 2 of them. LA is out so there had to be an adversary for AC


----------



## Len J

dreww said:


> I read 6 pages and no one comments on AS's ability (or lack of) to descend...
> 
> Yes he lost 13 seconds on the climb, but another 20 on the descent, and he nearly ran off the road at the chicane section.
> 
> Fignon mentioned on Saturday ? that his descending skills were questionable.
> 
> Would he have stayed with, AS, Menchov and specially Sanchez if he ahd not been dropped?? he can climb but he does not look smooth on the descents.
> 
> Just my 2 cents..


AC was descending with 2 of the best descenders in the world showing him the line, Andy was descending by himself, big difference in time.

Len


----------



## Len J

It appears that many are assuming that the chain drop was caused by a bad shift on Andy's part.......it could have been, but do we know it was?

lEN


----------



## SaddleTime

I'm just guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "give your opponent a fair chance" thing has less to do with being part of a higher, more respectful, civilized, species, and more to do with ultimate bragging rights. Let's face it: if two combatants meet on equal grounds and one ends up winning, it's evident who the better man/woman is.

Let the bragging begin.

I have to admit that at the end of the Tour last year I really disliked AC, mostly because I was rooting for a 1-2-3 Astana finish (as unlikely as that was) and it looked like AC kept coming out to play the "screw the rest of you guys - I'm in it for me" game, leaving teammate Kloden in a bad spot and putting the rest of the team in bad situations in order to advance himself. Yes, arguably he was the team leader, but screwing your teammates in their hard work because you "didn't really need them" seemed low class. 

Over the last bunch of months I got to a point where I was starting to root for AC because he's friggin' amazing on the climbs and he's friggin' amazing on the TT, as he proved last year. I was really looking forward to seeing who the BEST rider is this year. AC taking advantage of a mechanical issue with AS suddenly makes that harder to determine. In 2010 will AC beat AS in a "straight fight"? 

It's hard to brag when critics will say you only won by taking advantage of someone else's troubles...

(AC saying that he didn't realize AS was having a problem doesn't cut it anymore - he's had plently of "I didn't know" excuses in the past, with his radio earpiece mysteriously falling out, not understanding english well enough, not knowing where his teammates are, etc. I'm sure AC knew via the Astana team radio that Shleck was having a mechanical trouble.)

Three other quick points: 
1) knowing AS's past poor performance in the TT, why would AC feel he needs to jump on gift opportunities like this?
2) AS and AC are far enough ahead of the other leaders that I don't buy the argument that AC had no choice but to push hard when he saw AS stop suddenly. Even if he had let up on the gas (not stop) this is still a two-horse race with all the other "contenders" actually fighting for 3rd.
3) That was unbelieveable how fast AS moved through the other riders to try to get back to AC. Impressive!

Just my 48 cents-worth...


----------



## Perico

Two more things:

I literally just watched the coverage and rewound and did not see any of these long pushes goloso claims occurred.

Interesting that on Versus AC was doing interviews in English with minimal translation and his responses all in English...until today. Kind of reminds me of Sammy Sosa in front of Congress.


----------



## shabbasuraj

Guys... AC is gonna destroy the tourmalet, to prove a point, I heard that all the GC contenders are officially scared now..

































.... (allegedly)


----------



## MaddSkillz

That video adds a lot to this discussion. I guess now we're to suppose that AC should have looked down and examined the situation... Because as it appears, he was just rockin it up the hill... With AS slowing down like that... It could have been a bonk, could have been a flat (or is he supposed to wait on a flat now as well?) or a number of other things I guess... 

So should AC have stopped his already in motion attack and asked, "Hey, guy, is there anything I can do for you?"


----------



## lastchild

Sojourneyman said:


> I don't feel like this is making your point.



unless his point is to be a bigger a$$ hat than AC...in that he has succeeded.


----------



## cyclejim

I watched it again and I see no indication that he was shifting either.


----------



## weltyed

Uncle Jam's Army said:


> Contador was not in yellow...


nor did conti stop for a wheel change.

whats weird is there are no written rules about these things (like crossing the mound in baseball), but people usually abide by them. and what makes a mechanical a mechanical? a crash a crash? how much stock we put in the slogan "racing is racing?" 

what makes this instance so tricky is the incident happened when the rider attempted to attack, and the other riders reacted to the attack, as would be expected. conti could have waited and let the other two go, but there would be people saying he doesn't have the killer instinct. 

as far as TT incidents, look no further than the chicken. he crashed pretty bad, had mechanicals, crashed some more, and had a veritable meltdown that took him off the podium. but the ITT is the race of truth. so much time and effort go into makig sure the bike is perfect. plus, not everyone is on teh road at the same time. look at the weather issue. so races are decided by riders going early and avoiding bad rain (almost happened this year). 

when were these unwritten rules started? i like to think it was back when the race was unsupported. riders were out all night, fighting against each other and with each other. sure, there are times people attacked or wouldn't help. did anyone stop while the rider looked for a blacksmith to help fix his fork? but maybe somebody helped him find a shop. 

why dont they pertain to mtb? not sure. good question. nothing saying they cant. but i can say in the road ranks things are supported. in mtb it is part of the race. now, if someone goes otb and blacks out, i would hope someone would stop and help, even ifit means the race.

but thats not a slipped chain, is it...

the only thing certain is this will be debated for years to come.


----------



## 97G8tr

I'd love to see old man Lance lead Andy up the mtn as a guise for his own 'win' and launch Schleck.


----------



## den bakker

Len J said:


> It appears that many are assuming that the chain drop was caused by a bad shift on Andy's part.......it could have been, but do we know it was?
> 
> lEN


with 8-10 seconds to go in the video. 
looks like he shifts right-hand side just when the chain drops 
http://www.steephill.tv/players/eur...+key+moment+-+Tour+de+France+2010&id=20948447


----------



## kupe

Salsa_Lover said:


> Many of you don't remember that Andy Schleck got his 30' advantage over contador during the stage on the Pavés, where Contador had a mechanical ( he had a broken spoke and had to finish the stage with the wheel rubbing the fork ),
> 
> Andy didn't wait Contador then.


Contador wasn't in yellow then....


----------



## jsedlak

mikeman said:


> What if a sprinter fluffs a shift and loses? Do they get a do over? How about if AS legs had locked up due to riding too big a gear and he is slowed dramtically until he can get in a reasonable gear? Do you wait then? Should there be a unwritten cycling rules protocol commissare on the road sorting these things out, issuing do-overs whenever such a scenario occurs?
> 
> I think the fluffed gear change is akin to making tactical or even strategic errors, part of the game. When the sun gets in the eyes of the leftfielder, who does not know to shield the sun from his eyes using his glove and getting a safer angle to view the ball from and it lands for a hit, should we have an unwritten fairness do-over?
> 
> Face it Andy fluffed the shift. He should be angry at himself for screwing up under pressure.


The "rule." You don't understand it.


----------



## dwgranda

Because there is an unwritten rule. That's the type of logic that exists in Europe. It's a stupid rule because it's not always applied to all GC contenders who may not happen to be in yellow at a given moment. If it had happened to Contador, some would say wait, others would say "but he's not in the yellow jersey!" that alone should show you why it's a stupid rule.




 Pablo said:


> Well, yeah. But my question is why is there this rule at all.


----------



## culdeus

Travis said:


> watch the video and you will see he hit something in the road causing his back wheel to jump which threw the chain. I don't think he was shifting. AC is a classless clown!


No, the chain throw + huge watts did that. not some road debris.


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

MaddSkillz said:


> That video adds a lot to this discussion. I guess now we're to suppose that AC should have looked down and examined the situation... Because as it appears, he was just rockin it up the hill... With AS slowing down like that... It could have been a bonk, could have been a flat (or is he supposed to wait on a flat now as well?) or a number of other things I guess...
> 
> So should AC have stopped his already in motion attack and asked, "Hey, guy, is there anything I can do for you?"


You know that neither a bonk or a flat will result in going from all out attack mode to a weaving stop in a couple of seconds. Contador clearly saw what happened. He may not have known at the time what the mechanical was, but he could see that something was wrong.


----------



## culdeus

cyclejim said:


> I watched it again and I see no indication that he was shifting either.


That's because when he actually made the shift the camera was on Vino.


----------



## CraigFavata9

karatemom said:


> I'm somewhat perplexed as to why people hate AC. I thought he dealt with the team from hell last year fairly gracefully, considering Lance was an unrelenting dick to him. Where's the class in that? AC is young and seems to be insecure, and yes, it would have been nice if he had at least stopped attacking, but that's bike racing.


They hate him because he beat the American hero. They won't admit it but it's written pretty large in their posts.

You can easily tell the difference between the people who are criticising Contador for his actions on their own merit and those who are criticising him because he kicked precious Lance's ass, because one group takes an analytical approach and backs up their points with rationale and reason and the other is more concerned with hate-speech, overly emotional responses and insults.


----------



## DrRoebuck

I like Contador, but he should have waited.



fornaca68 said:


> Contador still has a lot to learn.


Maybe true. In the meantime, he'll be amassing grand tour jerseys in all sorts of colors.




HeluvaSkier said:


> Was AC's move any different from the big pull that Saxo put on the front when LA flatted on the cobbles?


LA was not in yellow.




shabbasuraj said:


> Watching Andy stare at his bike like it was a two-legged dolphin was just painful, for 30 seconds.


Was the delay that long? I thought it was more like 15-20 seconds and he lost the rest on the descent. My guess is that he was in some crazy zone when it happened, was running near his limit and was completely shocked when it happened. I can understand it taking a few seconds to get back to reality and then deal with the mechanical.


----------



## vandalbob

*No Written Rule...but*

It's racing and stuff happens. AC has no obligation to wait for the yellow jersey wearer. However, in the eyes of the fans, and here on this board, who are the real judge/jury/executioner, AC acted in a classless manner. He certainly did not earn the admiration of the crowd nor of most responders here. It's unfortunate because he has tons of physical ability but is still lacking the class of a GREAT champion. When he wins his 8th in a row perhaps then he'll be deserving of our admiration and respect?


----------



## weltyed

this is a dirty trick comment.
the reason his interviews had minimal translation was because he rarely said anything after the question. he struggles with english, as anyone can see when they watch him stumble through interviews. 

now, imagine you have a very minimal grasp of speaking in a language, all heck breaks loose, you are getting booed and hissed at, there is a crush of press, and people are demanding answers for questions you barely understand.



Perico said:


> Interesting that on Versus AC was doing interviews in English with minimal translation and his responses all in English...until today. Kind of reminds me of Sammy Sosa in front of Congress.


----------



## civdic

This is one of the best tours in many years. Lots of drama.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Perico said:


> Interesting that on Versus AC was doing interviews in English with minimal translation and his responses all in English...until today. Kind of reminds me of Sammy Sosa in front of Congress.


This is not true. He always has a translator standing next to him. Sometimes he doesn't need to look at the translator because he's answering questions he's heard a million times, like "are you going to attack today?"

When they ask about things that aren't common, like "Did you know that Andy Schleck had a mechanical problem?" he tends to wait for a translation.


----------



## ttug

*understood*



MaddSkillz said:


> But you see, I don't see making up time due to mechanical issues being unethical. "Wait for me, guy, since my bike, my components, my mechanic or even myself caused this, you need to now risk your race too."
> 
> Yeah, that's just dumb. It's like we're so much into this "class" thing, that we can't see that this makes absolutely no sense. Especially in the super-bowl of cycling with so much on the line. Your failure, no matter what kind of failure it is, should not put my race at risk. Period.
> 
> It's like you want to pretend bikes and their components aren't a part of this race. If you want to eliminate the equipment, take up running or swimming.


I see what you mean, but there are times, when equipment or not, you wait. Thats was the time. It is understood, that the race overall is pretty much between these 2, SO, knowing that you attck and race when the ground is level, OR there is another view...

This is wioin win for the TDF because lets face it, both sides are pissed off. AC is not riding up to par, IMO, and as such, AS, is having the ride of his career. NOW, if you know that, why let the machines speak. let the legs race. Tomorrow could be a freak show spectacle of yet to be seen proportions, this could make a grteat race. But taking advatage of a mechanical on a Mountain...not so much, IMO


----------



## Perico

jptaylorsg said:


> This is not true. He always has a translator standing next to him. Sometimes he doesn't need to look at the translator because he's answering questions he's heard a million times, like "are you going to attack today?"
> 
> When they ask about things that aren't common, like "Did you know that Andy Schleck had a mechanical problem?" he tends to wait for a translation.


No, it is true. Go back and watch the previous stages, minimal translation, today 100% translation.


----------



## Len J

den bakker said:


> with 8-10 seconds to go in the video.
> looks like he shifts right-hand side just when the chain drops
> http://www.steephill.tv/players/eurosport/v1/?title=Andy+Schleck+drops+his+chain+at+a+key+moment+-+Tour+de+France+2010&id=20948447


It dropped to the outside. How is that a mis-shift....sounds like a poor outside limit.? I could see if it dropped to the inside.

Len


----------



## jsedlak

vandalbob said:


> It's racing and stuff happens. AC has no obligation to wait for the yellow jersey wearer. However, in the eyes of the fans, and here on this board, who are the real judge/jury/executioner, AC acted in a classless manner. He certainly did not earn the admiration of the crowd nor of most responders here. It's unfortunate because he has tons of physical ability but is still lacking the class of a GREAT champion. When he wins his 8th in a row perhaps then he'll be deserving of our admiration and respect?


Isn't that when all threads mentioning him get towed?


----------



## nate

weltyed said:


> when were these unwritten rules started? i like to think it was back when the race was unsupported. riders were out all night, fighting against each other and with each other. sure, there are times people attacked or wouldn't help. did anyone stop while the rider looked for a blacksmith to help fix his fork? but maybe somebody helped him find a shop.


Back when the Tour was new... racers were gentlemen... everyone respected each other... things were different back then... back when they had to stop racing at night because so many gentlemen riders were cheating when the judges couldn't see them. Being pulled by cars, riding in cars or trains, fans felling trees or dropping tacks in the road to block riders, et cetera.

The storied past of these men is being sullied by continuing to race after a dropped chain!

If anyone can't perceive the sarcasm, I find it ridiculous that so many are holier-than-thou for something that is _completely_ within the rules. This is a sport with ubiquitous cheating in the form of doping going back scores of years, and other forms of cheating since the inception of the grand tours. Don't attack the yellow when he has a bad shift, but you can dope all you want and we'll all keep it quiet!


----------



## AlanE

Andy was doomed to lose the yellow jersey in the time trial with only a 31 second lead. Now, if Alberto has a problem (mechanical or otherwise) on one of the remaining stages, Andy is justified to take full advantage of it


----------



## jptaylorsg

Perico said:


> No, it is true. Go back and watch the previous stages, minimal translation, today 100% translation.


Please re-read my comment about why minimal transltion has been required in the past vs. today. 

If you honestly think Contador is so calculating that he's hiding behind a feigned lack of English skills, good for you.

It's OK to hate Contador. It's OK to make up stuff that you have no ability to prove. Just expect to be called on it.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Len J said:


> Looked to me like Andy had attacked and Contador was having trouble responding..........
> 
> I think Contador attacked because he knew he needed to.
> 
> Classless, IMO.
> 
> As to Menchov & Sanchez...if you watch, contador is ahead of them and attacking, not following. If he truly was a Patron', he could have held them both up until ANDY caught on.
> 
> Len


This ^.

This is identical to the way I read it too. 

I don't know about "classless", but it was most definitely reactionary. He lost his head.

I was hoping to see a bit more seasoned (and wiley), Patron/Statesman behavior out of the both of them, as the two top dogs. I'm not seeing it. I see two kids.

I still think the booing of Contador was reprehensible though, and not warranted.

Well, it'll be "fun" to watch the p*ssing match ensue.


----------



## jsedlak

nate said:


> Back when the Tour was new... racers were gentlemen... everyone respected each other... things were different back then... back when they had to stop racing at night because so many gentlemen riders were cheating when the judges couldn't see them. Being pulled by cars, riding in cars or trains, fans felling trees or dropping tacks in the road to block riders, et cetera.
> 
> The storied past of these men is being sullied by continuing to race after a dropped chain!
> 
> If anyone can't perceive the sarcasm, I find it ridiculous that so many are holier-than-thou for something that is _completely_ within the rules in a sport with ubiquitous cheating in the form of doping going back scores of years, and other forms of cheating since the inception of the grand tours.


And this is why I love the tour. No matter how much it changes, it stays the same.


----------



## joep721

*Not to change the subject*

I just received my daily Competitive Cyclist email and it had an ad for the K-Edge Chain Catcher with the line "Drop your cahin, lose the race. (No matter what race you're doing". 

Classic - "seize the moment" marketing.


----------



## MaddSkillz

I understand that perspective... But what I don't understand is the idea that he should have been expected to wait (and thus give up time) on his rival.

I do see how it's like kicking someone when they're down. But this is a huge race with so much at stake. There should be no gimmie's here.

Honestly, I really don't think all of this is going to matter after the TT anyway. Everyone knows Contador was gonna get his time back and then some on the TT coming up.


----------



## PJay

*"If you want to eliminate the equipment"*



MaddSkillz said:


> It's like you want to pretend bikes and their components aren't a part of this race. If you want to eliminate the equipment, take up running or swimming.


or competitive ultimate frisbee. no one talks about gear. just orthopedic surgeons.


----------



## jptaylorsg

OldEndicottHiway said:


> This ^.
> 
> This is identical to the way I read it too.
> 
> I don't know about "classless", but it was most definitely reactionary. He lost his head.
> 
> I was hoping to see a bit more seasoned (and wiley), Patron/Statesman behavior out of the both of them, as the two top dogs. I'm not seeing it. I see two kids.
> 
> I still think the booing of Contador was reprehensible though, and not warranted.
> 
> Well, it'll be "fun" to watch the p*ssing match ensue.



Here you thought Lance being out of contention would make this board boring this year ...


----------



## jwcurry83

It is a shame that Contador needed to jump on a chance like that to take the yellow jersey... Schleck had taken those 31 seconds from him fair and square, with hard work and determination during the mountains... Contador took it back by taking full advantage of a mechanical failure, which once again showed Alberto's true character. There is still plenty of Tour left...karma is coming back around! Go ANDY!


----------



## Perico

jptaylorsg said:


> Please re-read my comment about why minimal transltion has been required in the past vs. today.
> 
> If you honestly think Contador is so calculating that he's hiding behind a feigned lack of English skills, good for you.
> 
> It's OK to hate Contador. It's OK to make up stuff that you have no ability to prove. Just expect to be called on it.


Where did I make anything up?


----------



## Len J

How is it a mis-shift on Andy's part if the chain drops to the outside? Isn't that caused by an improper trim adustment?

Len


----------



## adimiro

*Even Bruyneel sides with Contador..*

From VeloNews.com


_In the heat of the race and the finale, you cannot say to Contador, ‘wait for Andy.’ Andy didn’t wait for Contador on the cobblestones, either,” said RadioShack’s Johan Bruyneel. “You can’t say to Sammy Sánchez, I’ll let you go because I’ll wait for the yellow jersey. No, there are no gifts in this race.”_


----------



## jptaylorsg

jwcurry83 said:


> Schleck had taken those 31 seconds from him fair and square, with hard work and determination during the mountains...


Not true. He took it on stage 3 on the cobbles when Contador limped in with a broken spoke.


----------



## Guest

jptaylorsg said:


> So if he puts 2 minutes into AS in the ITT and wins by 2:20 or so, today's stage will have been the day he won the Tour? The day he took the yellow, yes, but not the only reason he won the Tour (which he hasn't done yet - it's not inconceivable Schleck could gap him on Tourmalet).


IMO, AC didn't "earn" the yellow jersey, he "took" it. Context is a big deal on this one. AC is the defending champion and the pre-race favorite. In such a positon, he bears a disproportional weight in acting honorably. AS is in the yellow jersey. Those two details, combined with just how tough both were competing against each other specifically, forms my conclusion. That, and I think honor still has a place in sport, even before winning. 

Neither of us can say what might have been, but I don't believe all the other stages will play out the same as they would have before this incident. At the level these guys race, I'd wager what goes on their heads is nearly as important as the physical aspect. Bottom line, I don't buy "based on AS's lead on 07/18 of xxx seconds, and the fact that AC won the Tour by xxx seconds +, it proves that AC's choice on 07/19 was moot and that he would have won anyway".

I'd like to have had access to the chatter on the team radios.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

jptaylorsg said:


> Here you though Lance being out of contention would make this board boring this year ...


LOL. Not at all. 

Lance was a wiley, sneaky little bastard of a tactician on the bike (altho I do think he would've slowed up for Andy were he in Cont's shoes...) and those days was fun stuff.

These two are a different kind of fun. Like watching two four year olds in the sandbox.

_IF_ LA has the legs I can hear him saying..."Hey Andy, want some help on the Tourm?"


----------



## jptaylorsg

*Take a Breath*

Maybe we should all take a breath and look at it the way Bjarne Riis (someone who is directly involved) does:

“Sánchez and Menchov were going full gas. It won’t help to criticize. For us, it would have been better if they had waited, but we cannot expect any help in these circumstances,” Riis said. “I think Contador waited at the beginning, but it took awhile before Andy was on his bike again. How long can Contador wait? I don’t know. Of course we’d have hoped he waited more. I don’t want to create a polemic, but how many guys crashed today? Nobody helps them, nobody waited. That’s how it is.”


----------



## S_Top_Sign

KMan said:


> General rule of the Tour is when Yellow has a mechanical or crash, you don't attack. Even Vino knew this and appeared to be waiting.


Oh man, I hope this lights a fire under Vino's britches. I bet we see Vino go rogue out of spite and race for Schleck in the days to come. (Tongue thoroughly embedded in cheek.)


----------



## Len J

OldEndicottHiway said:


> LOL. Not at all.
> 
> Lance was a wiley, sneaky little bastard of a tactician on the bike (altho I do think he would've slowed up for Andy were he in Cont's shoes...) and those days was fun stuff.
> 
> These two are a different kind of fun. Like watching two four year olds in the sandbox.


2 very talented 4 YO's.

Len

PS, tomorrow & Thursday are going to be awesome


----------



## albert owen

It was NOT a mechanical. NO component failed. The bike worked perfectly BEFORE and AFTER.
Schleck simply messed up a gear change. He was so anxious to make his attack stick that Schleck simply got it wrong and tried to make a stupid shift. Serves him right. Skillful and sympathetic control of a bike's mechanism is part of being a racer.


----------



## den bakker

Len J said:


> How is it a mis-shift on Andy's part if the chain drops to the outside? Isn't that caused by an improper trim adustment?
> 
> Len


Why does it matter if it's the mechanic or the rider?


----------



## Hawayyan

So......2 wrongs make it right? Maybe if this type of tit for tat happens more often, we'll get away from the arbitrary "unwritten rules", and a tour will be a tour, aka RAGBRAI, and a race will be a race.

No one has responded yet, Contador clearly (in some minds) erred today by attacking the yellow jersey, but since he himself was not in yellow, would it have been ok for Schleck to attack him if he dropped his chain, to make up time before the TT? And since most everything here is based on opinion vice fact, my opinion is there is no way in he!! AS waits for Contador.


----------



## Len J

jptaylorsg said:


> Maybe we should all take a breath and look at it the way Bjarne Riis (someone who is directly involved) does:
> 
> “Sánchez and Menchov were going full gas. It won’t help to criticize. For us, it would have been better if they had waited, but we cannot expect any help in these circumstances,” Riis said. “I think Contador waited at the beginning, but it took awhile before Andy was on his bike again. How long can Contador wait? I don’t know. Of course we’d have hoped he waited more. I don’t want to create a polemic, but how many guys crashed today? Nobody helps them, nobody waited. That’s how it is.”


This is entertainment........I think that my disappointment comes from my own wanting the 2 of them to battle it out Mano a mano, and may the stronger win. It certainly looked like Andy had a chance to break him today (although we will never know)......that would have been an epic battle if not for this mechanical (& yes, based on the video, I don't see how it's a mis-shift based on where the chain ended up). Imagine the next couple of days and then the ITT if not for this.

IMO

Len


----------



## asciibaron

i bet Lance puts in a massive attack and crashes out Contador for his dick move to AS. 

having just watched it a few times, AC is a huge wipe.


----------



## krishna

ohpossum said:


> From Velonews, Andy says:
> 
> “I’m really disappointed. My stomach is full of anger, and I want to take my revenge,” he said.
> 
> “I will take my revenge in the coming days.”
> 
> he continued, "So the next time we meet, I will not fail. I will go up to the six-fingered man and say, "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die..."
> 
> 
> ok, I may have made up that last part
> 
> 
> Pistols at Dawn!



Curious - I thought I read somewhere that they were friends. true? false?


----------



## LesDiablesRouges

Hawayyan said:


> So......2 wrongs make it right? Maybe if this type of tit for tat happens more often, we'll get away from the arbitrary "unwritten rules", and a tour will be a tour, aka RAGBRAI, and a race will be a race.
> 
> No one has responded yet, Contador clearly (in some minds) erred today by attacking the yellow jersey, but since he himself was not in yellow, would it have been ok for Schleck to attack him if he dropped his chain, to make up time before the TT? And since most everything here is based on opinion vice fact, my opinion is there is no way in he!! AS waits for Contador.


You're incorrect Schelck would have waited for Contador ... 

again look at Contador's history ... it doesn't not paint a flattering picture in regard to sportsmanship ...


----------



## Salsa_Lover

den bakker said:


> which by the way way was how chavanel was dropped on the cobbles. If only I could remember which team it was who took advantage of the crashes, mechanical and holdups on the cobbles.


e-x-a-c-t-l-y

Andi made an error

he attacked shifting wrong and dropping the chain. It is entirely his fault.

Shoul all other contenders stop racing and wait him until he fixes his error.

He didn't crashed. he just misshifted.


----------



## north_of_us

AC haters are going to hate, same thing last year, LA took advantage of AC during that windy stage and AC didnt catch the break and told the boys to hammer, then AC gets time on him and everyone is AC bashing. AS takes a little opportunity when AC breaks a spoke, im sure it was get on the pedal time when that happened. Plus Saxo was on the gas when LA fell, so come on with this AS is a saint crap, NO LA and AC were not in yellow BUT THIS RACE WAS GOING TO BE BETWEEN AC AS and LA, SO YELLOW OR NOT they know who are the big boys. 
AC could have waited, but look at the distance he put in that short time, he cant tell everyone to ease up when their on the gas on a climb like this, its not Tyler and Jan just a couple of guys waiting for LA, today was different. Plus this was rider error, droping a chain. BLAH BLAH BLAH, Andy needs minutes not seconds to win this Tour.


----------



## asciibaron

this reminds me of this gem (nsfw)


----------



## adimiro

albert owen said:


> It was NOT a mechanical. NO component failed. The bike worked perfectly BEFORE and AFTER.
> Schleck simply messed up a gear change. He was so anxious to make his attack stick that Schleck simply got it wrong and tried to make a stupid shift. Serves him right. Skillful and sympathetic control of a bike's mechanism is part of being a racer.



Thank you for emphasizing this fact that is readily overlooked by those looking for a reason to hate on AC. 

Andy S. should be ashamed to lay the blame of his misshifting and cross chaining on AC, 

Tell AS to go beat up on his mechanic or get more acquainted with shifting those SRAM's while going uphill.


----------



## LesDiablesRouges

dwgranda said:


> Because there is an unwritten rule. That's the type of logic that exists in Europe. It's a stupid rule because it's not always applied to all GC contenders who may not happen to be in yellow at a given moment. If it had happened to Contador, some would say wait, others would say "but he's not in the yellow jersey!" that alone should show you why it's a stupid rule.


I'm sorry you didn't grow up in a household with parents that taught you about class, dignity, and integrity ...That is what this whole thing is about ... it's a reflection on society. Fewer an fewer people who want to do things correctly and more of this I want it now, wins at all costs spoiled mentality ...


----------



## jptaylorsg

LesDiablesRouges said:


> You're incorrect Schelck would have waited for Contador ...
> 
> again look at Contador's history ... it doesn't not paint a flattering picture in regard to sportsmanship ...


I'm not defending him today. I would have waited, but I don't blame him for continuing to ride.

But I assume you have a long list of incidents when he took advantage of people who had crashes or mechanicals?


----------



## team_sheepshead

CraigFavata9 said:


> They hate him because he beat the American hero. They won't admit it but it's written pretty large in their posts.
> 
> You can easily tell the difference between the people who are criticising Contador for his actions on their own merit and those who are criticising him because he kicked precious Lance's ass, because one group takes an analytical approach and backs up their points with rationale and reason and the other is more concerned with hate-speech, overly emotional responses and insults.


+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 

Now people are attacking AC because he's not a native English speaker??? This is a race in France full of European riders...and people are ripping a Spaniard because he's not speaking fluent English? Me thinks this criticism is not about AC perhaps attacking the yellow jersey. There's a lot of deep-seated hate here for AC. 

People need to ride their bikes more.


----------



## Len J

den bakker said:


> Why does it matter if it's the mechanic or the rider?


Many are saying that it was a rider error (mis-shift) as opposed to a mechanical.

Len


----------



## LesDiablesRouges

OldEndicottHiway said:


> This ^.
> 
> This is identical to the way I read it too.
> 
> I don't know about "classless", but it was most definitely reactionary. He lost his head.
> 
> I was hoping to see a bit more seasoned (and wiley), Patron/Statesman behavior out of the both of them, as the two top dogs. I'm not seeing it. I see two kids.
> 
> I still think the booing of Contador was reprehensible though, and not warranted.
> 
> Well, it'll be "fun" to watch the p*ssing match ensue.


I find it strange that you take such issue with the booing. How often has a crowd booed a rider? I think it was a pretty fitting response. They're responding to what they felt was a lack of class and integrity.


----------



## nathanbal

den bakker said:


> which by the way way was how chavanel was dropped on the cobbles. If only I could remember which team it was who took advantage of the crashes, mechanical and holdups on the cobbles.


exactly spot on. all the fawning over AC attacking... and whats been missed is this is karma biting Andy in the arse.


----------



## LesDiablesRouges

team_sheepshead said:


> +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
> 
> Now people are attacking AC because he's not a native English speaker??? This is a race in France full of European riders...and people are ripping a Spaniard because he's not speaking fluent English? Me thinks this criticism is not about AC perhaps attacking the yellow jersey. There's a lot of deep-seated hate here for AC.
> 
> People need to ride their bikes more.


Aside from the comments about his interviews I don't think anyone is ripping Contador for not speaking English well.

I think people dislike Contador becuase they feel his "antics" do not have a place in cycling ...


----------



## Perico

Oh, good God, now people are making things up. Where did I say anything about him not speaking well?!?!?! I commented on his going from minimal translation to 100% translation today.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Perico said:


> Where did I make anything up?


Well, except for the part about Contador orchestrating the need for an interpreter to suit his sinister aims, nowhere at all.


----------



## Guest

Sad day for honor and sportsmanship. 

Spin miesters will be busy trying to sway public opinion, but the teams know more than we will ever hear. (would like to have had access to team radios). Hope tomorrow reflects the peleton's opinion on the matter.

If the journalists/play by play announcers are going to ask for opinions..........start and end with Merckx. I'll abide by his opinion.


----------



## goloso

*pushes...*



Perico said:


> Two more things:
> 
> I literally just watched the coverage and rewound and did not see any of these long pushes goloso claims occurred.
> 
> Interesting that on Versus AC was doing interviews in English with minimal translation and his responses all in English...until today. Kind of reminds me of Sammy Sosa in front of Congress.


Hey, long pushes are in the eye of the beholder. I was in no way claiming that AS or the pushers did anything improper but two guys pushing got him up to speed pretty quickly.

As for the language thing. He seems to go back and forth. In the past he said that he does not like giving interviews in English because he feels it isn't very good and does not want to misspeak.

Hate on Haters!


----------



## MaddSkillz

albert owen said:


> It was NOT a mechanical. NO component failed. The bike worked perfectly BEFORE and AFTER.
> Schleck simply messed up a gear change. He was so anxious to make his attack stick that Schleck simply got it wrong and tried to make a stupid shift. Serves him right. Skillful and sympathetic control of a bike's mechanism is part of being a racer.


Ahh okay, I see. Thanks!


----------



## den bakker

Len J said:


> Many are saying that it was a rider error (mis-shift) as opposed to a mechanical.
> 
> Len


It's definitely not a mechanical in the "sh!t happens" category. Team member messed up, team leader pays the price.


----------



## north_of_us

and Johan is not the biggest AC fan in the world. AC countered and road past but then looked back and SS and DM took control with AC failing behind on their wheels. If people are going to bash AC, SS and DM needs to be in the mix. They put some serious distance in a short time, can't really hold everyone up when their on the limit.


----------



## Hawayyan

LesDiablesRouges said:


> I'm sorry you didn't grow up in a household with parents that taught you about class, dignity, and integrity ...That is what this whole thing is about ... it's a reflection on society. Fewer an fewer people who want to do things correctly and more of this I want it now, wins at all costs spoiled mentality ...



This is NOT a reflection on society. It's a bike RACE for cryin' out loud. I think that wars and how we handle them, poverty and how we handle it, hunger and how we handle it is a reflection on society. This is a bike RACE. Believe or not, I think most of us, since cycling is our passion, put too much passion into our rational thinking. If you take probably 98% of society worldwide, and tell them that in an athletic RACE, with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line, that it is expected that if the leader and only the leader, has a mechanical problem, then everyone else is supposed to stop racing and let him catch up, they'll ask what the heck kinda race that is.


----------



## Wildcat5957

booksbikesbeer said:


> Vino was on Schleck's wheel when the chain go stuck, and Vino sat up, looked back, and stopped attacking. The others shouldn't have stopped riding, but they should not have upped the pace.


I noticed the same thing. Vino showing more class than AC! AC took off like a scared little man.


----------



## ultimobici

Funny that the attack AS put in was from way back as AC was looking the other way. 

Far from "having him on the ropes" as Phil & Paul commentated, AS merely pulled a fast one and caught him unawares!!

Then he manages to stuff up a gear change....which is a little like karma too!

AC seemed to initially hesitate, as if expecting AS to rejoin, but due to his cackhandedness AS couldn't get going as fast so AC had to decide.

And he decided to do what he did. Perfectly fine in my book.


----------



## Perico

jptaylorsg- Nice try, but that is an epic failure on your part because I posted facts and said "it reminds me of..." thus nothing was made up. Run along now.

goloso- tell you what, find a clip, post a link and prove me wrong. I am betting you won't and will instead talk big. On the language thing, I am comparing him oday to previous days in the Tour this year.


----------



## ttug

*what????*



albert owen said:


> It was NOT a mechanical. NO component failed. The bike worked perfectly BEFORE and AFTER.
> Schleck simply messed up a gear change. He was so anxious to make his attack stick that Schleck simply got it wrong and tried to make a stupid shift. Serves him right. Skillful and sympathetic control of a bike's mechanism is part of being a racer.


There are riders in the peleton who do know how to adjust a limit switch on the bike, they are not mechanics. Being a racer does not make you a mechanic.

Yes, as to the bad shifting, I could see that. It has happened certainly, but at that level, on a mountain stage of the TDF after you have several hundred miles in your ;egs you forget????????? Cross chaining is bad????

Yeah, lets say that did happen and the chain flew to the outside of the chain ring, how is that cross switching. Do you normally drop a chain, INSIDE the chain ring?"?"? Assuming you are cross gearing, high to low..........not so much, IMO


----------



## nate

billium said:


> Sad day for honor and sportsmanship.
> 
> Spin miesters will be busy trying to sway public opinion, but the teams know more than we will ever hear. (would like to have had access to team radios). Hope tomorrow reflects the peleton's opinion on the matter.
> 
> If the journalists/play by play announcers are going to ask for opinions..........start and end with Merckx. I'll abide by his opinion.


Merckx got punched by a fan near the top of a climb in a situation that I believe probably cost him quote a bit of time, though I'm not very familiar with the 1975 Tour. Not only did he not complain that nobody waited, he stated that the stronger man, Thevenet, won the Tour. That is class, not whining about how your opponent shouldn't attack you if you're in yellow.


----------



## ultimobici

LA has an interesting & diplomatic view of it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-refuses-to-criticize-contador



> Lance Armstrong refused to criticise Alberto Contador for not waiting for Andy Schleck after his mechanical problem.
> Armstrong recalled when he waited for Jan Ullrich in 2001 and when Ullrich waited for him in 2003. However he pointed out that the race was 'on' and so the unwritten rules of fair play and sportsmanship do not count in the heat of the moment, when other riders are attacking and other placings and jerseys are at stake.
> "I didn't see exactly what happened because I was a bit behind," Armstrong said immediately after finishing the stage. "But if Alberto attacked when he saw that Andy was behind, then it's probably not correct but I have to see the images first. But it's a shame if he didn't get back up and so lost the jersey.
> "It's true [that Ullrich waited in 2003] and in 2001 I waited for Ulrich, when he went down. It's better to wait but this is different. This was the last climb of the race and the race was really on. I don't want to make a harsh judgment without having seen the images."
> *RadioShack leads team competition*
> Armstrong looked much stronger on the stage and was only distanced when the race exploded in the final kilometres of the _hors catégorie_ Port de Bales climb. He went on to finish 23rd in Bagneres de Luchon, 4:08 behind Thomas Voeckler (Bbox Bouygues Telecom) but was only 1:18 behind Contador.
> With Levi Leipheimer 17th and Andreas Klöden 22nd just ahead of him, RadioShack retook the lead in the team classification from Caisse d'Epargne. RadioShack now leads the Spanish team by 4:27 after Ruben Plaza, Christophe Moreau and Luis Leon Sanchez all finished behind Armstrong. Leipheimer held onto to seventh overall and is now 5:35 behind Contador.
> It seems that Armstrong will climb on the final Tour de France podium in Paris after all. Not for an eighth Tour de France victory but as he had hoped but part of the best team in the race. "It was a hard day but okay for the team because we got the team GC back," he said. "But we're running out of days because the Tour is only three weeks long, not four weeks. Anyway I was better than yesterday."


----------



## jptaylorsg

den bakker said:


> It's definitely not a mechanical in the "sh!t happens" category. Team member messed up, team leader pays the price.


Albert Owen makes a good point about this on another thread:

"It was NOT a mechanical. NO component failed. The bike worked perfectly BEFORE and AFTER.
Schleck simply messed up a gear change. He was so anxious to make his attack stick that Schleck simply got it wrong and tried to make a stupid shift. Serves him right. Skillful and sympathetic control of a bike's mechanism is part of being a racer."

It is true that the bike worked the same before and after - and every other day in this Tour. This one instance, when he was attacking - which definitely would be a shifting situation - the chain jumped. I would go with rider error as the likely cause, especially considering how common it is to slip a chain under these exact circumstances. I watched the video - inconclusive at best.

What say you, Len?


----------



## ttug

*yes*



nate said:


> Merckx got punched by a fan near the top of a climb in a situation that I believe probably cost him quote a bit of time, though I'm not very familiar with the 1975 Tour. Not only did he not complain that nobody waited, he stated that the stronger man, Thevenet, won the Tour. That is class, not whining about how your opponent shouldn't attack you if you're in yellow.


He also passed out, nearly died and if I recall had to use blood thinners. WHICh probably caused him to pass out in the first place..BUT OH WELL. A mechanical versus a freak show from the crowd.....not the same


----------



## north_of_us

*Sammy Sánchez and Denis Menchov are d!cks*

a little sarcasm for all the AC haters, if they were going to sit up it needed to be everyone, not just AC. Look at the video, AC looks back then SS and DM hit the gas and AC takes their wheel, ease up on the AC hate.


----------



## Swish

Many seem to see the Tour as three weeks of gentlemens' agreements and sportsmanship, they yearn for the chivalry of years gone by. The Tour has seen mobbing, taking trains, misdirecting, puncturing etc to thwart opponents chances in its century-long history.
Can we please not make a lacuna in sportmanship to be a sign of the times? It's always been there and will always play a role in any competitive environment.


----------



## zipptrek

I didn't like it !
How many times has LA waited for his rivals?
I remember one time Ulrich went off the road and LA waited.
No one waited for LA with both of his problems. Team Sky cranked up the pace after he crashed and buried him.
Now this with Shleck, I feel the tour has lost some of it's class.
Can't wait to see tomorrows stage.


----------



## The The

I know everyone is trying to dissect exactly how to apply the rule, but the arguments are bordering on pedantic. Basically, when you're at this stage in the race and there are two major contenders like this (like Armstrong and Ullrich a decade ago) you wait if the guy ends up off his bike. Schleck may or may not have messed up a shift, but he had to get off his bike and fuss around with it. The moment Contador noticed this was the case, he should have eased off.

Armstrong waited for Ullrich when he had a flat. The same rule should apply here. Those who know the rule know when it is applied. Those who don't know the rule pretend never to notice anything that is going on around them, like a certain Astana rider.

It's fair enough if others disagree, but I'd rather see a race where these two riders determine the winner based on physical strength and not who can capitalise most when the other has a problem with his bike. I appreciate that this seems like a silly excuse to let someone have a do-over, but that's how it's been with the GC contenders for quite some time and I'm happy with that.


----------



## 32and3cross

In all fairness Contador has promised to drop his chain during the next stage, in addition he will fall down on the decent, but Vino will stage a go slow protest after his fall.


----------



## ultimobici

The The said:


> I know everyone is trying to dissect exactly how to apply the rule, but the arguments are bordering on pedantic. Basically, when you're at this stage in the race and there are two major contenders like this (like Armstrong and Ullrich a decade ago) you wait if the guy ends up off his bike. Schleck may or may not have messed up a shift, but he had to get off his bike and fuss around with it. The moment Contador noticed this was the case, he should have eased off.
> 
> Armstrong waited for Ullrich when he had a flat. The same rule should apply here. Those who know the rule know when it is applied. Those who don't know the rule pretend never to notice anything that is going on around them, like a certain Astana rider.
> 
> It's fair enough if others disagree, but I'd rather see a race where these two riders determine the winner based on physical strength and not who can capitalise most when the other has a problem with his bike. I appreciate that this seems like a silly excuse to let someone have a do-over, but that's how it's been with the GC contenders for quite some time and I'm happy with that.


You might want to read Mr Armstrong's take on it then



> Lance Armstrong refused to criticise Alberto Contador for not waiting for Andy Schleck after his mechanical problem.
> Armstrong recalled when he waited for Jan Ullrich in 2001 and when Ullrich waited for him in 2003. However he pointed out that the race was 'on' and so the unwritten rules of fair play and sportsmanship do not count in the heat of the moment, when other riders are attacking and other placings and jerseys are at stake.
> "I didn't see exactly what happened because I was a bit behind," Armstrong said immediately after finishing the stage. "But if Alberto attacked when he saw that Andy was behind, then it's probably not correct but I have to see the images first. But it's a shame if he didn't get back up and so lost the jersey.
> "It's true [that Ullrich waited in 2003] and in 2001 I waited for Ulrich, when he went down. It's better to wait but this is different. This was the last climb of the race and the race was really on. I don't want to make a harsh judgment without having seen the images."


----------



## The The

LesDiablesRouges said:


> I find it strange that you take such issue with the booing. How often has a crowd booed a rider? I think it was a pretty fitting response. They're responding to what they felt was a lack of class and integrity.


Agreed. I love to hear a well-placed boo in sports. I think it's fair game considering how many athletes these days earn mega bucks for what they do. They aren't being forced against their will to be superstar cyclists. If they do something the crowd doesn't like, they need to know it. 

Sport, after all, is entertainment and since we, the audience, are consumers of this product, we should have the right to give them feedback.


----------



## The The

ultimobici said:


> You might want to read Mr Armstrong's take on it then


Armstrong's opinions don't have much sway with me these days. But that is a whole other kettle of fish. Plus I'm pretty arrogant.


----------



## Len J

jptaylorsg said:


> Albert Owen makes a good point about this on another thread:
> 
> "It was NOT a mechanical. NO component failed. The bike worked perfectly BEFORE and AFTER.
> Schleck simply messed up a gear change. He was so anxious to make his attack stick that Schleck simply got it wrong and tried to make a stupid shift. Serves him right. Skillful and sympathetic control of a bike's mechanism is part of being a racer."
> 
> It is true that the bike worked the same before and after - and every other day in this Tour. This one instance, when he was attacking - which definitely would be a shifting situation - the chain jumped. I would go with rider error as the likely cause, especially considering how common it is to slip a chain under these exact circumstances. I watched the video - inconclusive at best.
> 
> What say you, Len?


I've never dropped a chain on the outside of the cog for any other reason than an improperly set limit screw adjustment. When I have done this because of a bad limit screw setup, I've been very careful afterward to not over-shift the cog. From the looks of how he fixed the chain, it appears that this is a bike set up problem not a rider shift mistake. To say it worked perfectly when a limit screw was improperly set is incorrect (if that is what happened).

How can someone say it worked perfectly before & after unless they know that he was in that situation before that momnet, that day.

Of course, we are all guessing. 

No one has yet supported a mis-shift to me based on where the chain ended up.

Len


----------



## AndyP.

shabbasuraj said:


> I can put a dropped chain back on in 7 seconds, and not 30 seconds,
> 
> Unclip, grab chain, put onto small chain ring, immediately spin the wheel, and jump back on.
> 
> I guess pro riders should learn some basic wrenching skills. /endthread


+1 My 11 year old son learned how to put on a chain yesterday and it took him about 10 seconds. This was not really a mechanical, Andy should have fixed his chain faster, Menchov, Sanchez, and Contador were tempo riding, and Schreck lost the race on the descent. I'm not glad the jersey changed hands this way, but people are reading too much into this (check out the 7 billion posts over on that happy place called Cycling News.com). Who knows what each rider saw and was thinking? All this sinister "stuff" is silly. Andy


----------



## Len J

ultimobici said:


> You might want to read Mr Armstrong's take on it then


Wonder if he'll say the same thing after he actually watches it.

D'uh

Len


----------



## jptaylorsg

Perico said:


> jptaylorsg- Nice try, but that is an epic failure on your part because I posted facts and said "it reminds me of..." thus nothing was made up. Run along now.
> .


I see. So there was no intent on your part to insinuate that there was a REASON Contador used an interpreter more today than other days. You were just filling your role as intrepid RBR reporter, in case anyone was wondering if AC used his interpreter more today than yesterday or four days ago.

No, you didn't mean anything by it. Not in the context you threw it out there: 



Perico said:


> Interesting that on Versus AC was doing interviews in English with minimal translation and his responses all in English...until today. Kind of reminds me of Sammy Sosa in front of Congress.


What was it you found interesting, I wonder, if you were just posting facts? What was it you found interesting about Smmy Sosa testifying in front of Congress? Why the comparison? Why would you think a Congressional deposition regarding alleged systemic lawbreaking and an interview with Robbie Ventura about a "gentlemen's agreement" are comparable in any way? Just wondering.

Also, I simply said that it is not true that he has been doing his interviews until now in English. He always has the interpreter there, and he always looks to him when he doesn't understand a question. Sometimes he needs the interpreter more than others. VS. never shows the interpreter because they'd rather focus on the interviewer and the rider.

Whether you think he was hiding behind his Spanish today is up to your perception, but the evidence you presented wasn't presented truthfully.


----------



## Guest

nate said:


> Merckx got punched by a fan near the top of a climb in a situation that I believe probably cost him quote a bit of time, though I'm not very familiar with the 1975 Tour. Not only did he not complain that nobody waited, he stated that the stronger man, Thevenet, won the Tour. That is class, not whining about how your opponent shouldn't attack you if you're in yellow.


Great, If that's Merckx's opinion, I'm good with it. Lets both wait to hear what he has to say (if anything).

I'm still hoping that after all the PR posturing, the peleton's actions tomorrow reflect the rider's opinions, not their handlers or PR departments.


----------



## Damitletsride!

32and3cross said:


> In all fairness Contador has promised to drop his chain during the next stage, in addition he will fall down on the decent, but Vino will stage a go slow protest after his fall.


That would be funny haha. 

But the day the Schlecks fell, nearly half the riders in the peleton fell over as well, so a bit different there :thumbsup:


----------



## wrongway

nayr497 said:


> ^^^Spot on, yater! Yeah, I had to fix a flat the other week during a fast group ride that ends as a race. Around 1 hour in and 20 miles.
> 
> I'm perfectly capable of changing a flat...but when your hands and fingers are slippery from sweat, you have sweat dripping onto your already fogged shades, and you have 30 people standing around watching you, waiting to offer pointers, it makes is much more difficult.
> 
> And yeah, my hands and arms were shaking, since my heart was racing from the riding. Wobbly knees, shaky hands. Makes things a lot more difficult. Sure putting a chain back on can take seconds, but on a climb and in the middle of the TdF as your rival rides away...your brain might pause for a bit.


Where is this civilized group ride, so I can join in? Nobody waits on our tuesday nite beat-down rides.


----------



## Perico

jptaylorsg said:


> I see. So there was no intent on your part to insinuate that there was a REASON Contador used an interpreter more today than other days. You were just filling your role as intrepid RBR reporter, in case anyone was wondering if AC used his interpreter more today than yesterday or four days ago.
> 
> No, you didn't mean anything by it. Not in the context you threw it out there:
> 
> 
> 
> What was it you found interesting, I wonder, if you were just posting facts? What was it you found interesting about Smmy Sosa testifying in front of Congress? Why the comparison? Why would you think a Congressional deposition regarding alleged systemic lawbreaking and an interview with Robbie Ventura about a "gentlemen's agreement" are comparable in any way? Just wondering.
> 
> Also, I simply said that it is not true that he has been doing his interviews until now in English. He always has the interpreter there, and he always looks to him when he doesn't understand a question. Sometimes he needs the interpreter more than others. VS. never shows the interpreter because they'd rather focus on the interviewer and the rider.
> 
> Whether you think he was hiding behind his Spanish today is up to your perception, but the evidence you presented wasn't presented truthfully.



You claimed I made something up, I proved that I made nothing up and now you are trying to spin things...and aren't bright enough to realize that, in your asinine argument you actually admit I did not make anything up.

Game, set and match, run along, I'm done with you.


----------



## wrongway

nayr497 said:


> ^^^Spot on, yater! Yeah, I had to fix a flat the other week during a fast group ride that ends as a race. Around 1 hour in and 20 miles.
> 
> I'm perfectly capable of changing a flat...but when your hands and fingers are slippery from sweat, you have sweat dripping onto your already fogged shades, and you have 30 people standing around watching you, waiting to offer pointers, it makes is much more difficult.
> 
> And yeah, my hands and arms were shaking, since my heart was racing from the riding. Wobbly knees, shaky hands. Makes things a lot more difficult. Sure putting a chain back on can take seconds, but on a climb and in the middle of the TdF as your rival rides away...your brain might pause for a bit.


Where is this civilized fast/race group ride, so I can join in? Nobody waits on our Tuesday nite beat-down rides.


----------



## bdx1366

Rsix said:


> I agree!! +1


+++++++2


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

LesDiablesRouges said:


> I find it strange that you take such issue with the booing. How often has a crowd booed a rider? I think it was a pretty fitting response. They're responding to what they felt was a lack of class and integrity.



I think booing by spectators in and of itself (unless in good fun with no malicious intent to the recipient) is gross.

What Cont (and the other two) did was a "gray area". Contador knew what he was doing: Andy had gone from all out to practically stopping and disembarking, when Cont went around him out of the saddle full tilt.

But Contador was under no obligation to gift Schleck; it was the heat of the moment and the pressure was on. Split second decisions are made. Lance caught Contador out last year in that break, and I didn't much care for that on principle, but it's a race.

So "booing" Contador to me, was wholly unjustified and disgusting. Yes I would've liked a more "Patron-like" response being this is the TdF and he and Andy are the leaders, and the representors of the sport and the race. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## ultimobici

Len J said:


> I've never dropped a chain on the outside of the cog for any other reason than an improperly set limit screw adjustment. When I have done this because of a bad limit screw setup, I've been very careful afterward to not over-shift the cog. From the looks of how he fixed the chain, it appears that this is a bike set up problem not a rider shift mistake. To say it worked perfectly when a limit screw was improperly set is incorrect (if that is what happened).
> 
> How can someone say it worked perfectly before & after unless they know that he was in that situation before that momnet, that day.
> 
> Of course, we are all guessing.
> 
> No one has yet supported a mis-shift to me based on where the chain ended up.
> 
> Len


It's possible that it was working fine before and after the incident.

It is perfectly possible that the limit screws were adjusted so that under "normal" conditions the chain would not be thrown off but, when shifted under stress, would allow the chain to be unshipped. It only takes half a turn in the wrong direction and the cage can move that 1/2mm extra to pop the chain over.

Under these circumstances it's not a mechanical but a team f### up.

By the logic expressed by some in this thread, Rudy Dhaenens was robbed of a sure stage win in the 89 Tour and the whole peleton should have stopped to allow him to walk across the line. In reality his mechanic needed a lesson in glueing tubs on properly.


----------



## 32and3cross

Damitletsride! said:


> That would be funny haha.
> 
> But the day the Schlecks fell, nearly half the riders in the peleton fell over as well, so a bit different there :thumbsup:


Half fell but aside form CVV all the rest rejoined except the Shlecks, who were in serious trouble prior to the wait up.


----------



## ultimobici

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I think booing by spectators in and of itself (unless in good fun with no malicious intent to the recipient) is gross.
> 
> What Cont (and the other two) did was a "gray area". Contador knew what he was doing: Andy had gone from all out to practically stopping and disembarking, when Cont went around him out of the saddle full tilt.
> 
> But Contador was under no obligation to gift Schleck; it was the heat of the moment and the pressure was on. Split second decisions are made. Lance caught Contador out last year in that break, and I didn't much care for that on principle, but it's a race.
> 
> So "booing" Contador to me, was wholly unjustified and disgusting. Yes I would've liked a more "Patron-like" response being this is the TdF and he and Andy are the leaders, and the representors of the sport and the race.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Plus AS had just launched an attack from the back of the group as AC looked the opposite way. As soon a AC realised, he had to counter. But he didn't deem to go full gas straight away. It was almost as if he was expecting AS to rally. Only then did he put the hammer down with the others.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Perico said:


> You claimed I made something up, I proved that I made nothing up and now you are trying to spin things...and aren't bright enough to realize that, in your asinine argument you actually admit I did not make anything up.
> 
> Game, set and match, run along, I'm done with you.


You're correct. I should have called your suggestion that Contador deliberately hid behind an interpreter today because he was conscious of what he'd done and ashamed of it an insinuation, not made up.

My apologies


----------



## troutmd

A little more sarcasm

It was staged.

With Lance no longer a media story the TDF needed something to keep interest and their event in the headlines.

Appears to have worked.

Epic!


----------



## ultimobici

Len J said:


> Wonder if he'll say the same thing after he actually watches it.
> 
> D'uh
> 
> Len


True.

But what about Schleck's DS's view?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-preaches-calm-in-aftermath-of-schlecks-disappointment



> _Dane refuses to criticise Contador's attack_
> _While Andy Schleck (Saxo Bank) had “anger in his belly” following stage fifteen of the Tour de France, when Alberto Contador (Astana) took advantage of his mechanical problems on the climb of the Port de Bales to claim the yellow jersey, the Luxembourger’s team director, Bjarne Riis, appeared to have ice in his._
> _Riis was characteristically cool and undemonstrative as he discussed Schleck’s mishap. “It’s sh*tty for him and for us it’s just bad luck,” shrugged Riis, who appealed to his rider to find an outlet for his anger on the bike. “That’s the way to handle it,” he said. “Take it out on the pedals.”_
> _To the thorny question of whether Contador should have waited for Schleck as he attempted to fix his chain, Riis shrugged again. “I would have hoped he would have waited, and I think I would have waited... I think he did wait at the beginning but then it was a while before Andy was on the bike again._
> _“I don’t know. Was it possible for Contador to wait in that situation, with [Samuel] Sanchez [Euskaltel] and [Denis] Menchov [Rabobank] attacking? He has to follow those guys, for sure. He might not need to pull [with them] or attack, but he has to follow those guys._
> _“[Andy] needs to stay calm, to focus and do the right thing. We’ll talk about it and we’ll make a plan - I think that’s the only thing we can do. There’s a lot of anger right now. I think that's normal and it’s okay. You have the right to let that out. But then he has to settle down again and regain his focus and do the right things.”_
> _Riis attempted to play down any problems between Schleck and Contador, saying: “I don’t want to create a polemic [argument] here because these were the circumstances of the race, and sometimes it’s like that. A lot of guys crashed today and nobody helped, nobody waited. It’s how it is._
> _“But it’s sad for Andy,” continued Riis, “he doesn’t deserve that. It’s not just the eight seconds [he now trails Contador by], it’s the 39 seconds he lost.”_
> _With another Pyrenean stage on Tuesday, including the climb of the Col du Tourmalet, was it possible that Schleck will claim back the yellow jersey within 24 hours of losing it? “That would be beautiful,” smiled Riis._
> _However, he then suggested that Thursday’s stage, which finishes at the summit of the Tourmalet, would be the important one. “I think the Tourmalet in a few days is going to be decisive. If you attack tomorrow, you can be chased down.”_
> _Riis knows that his rider must attack before the final time trial on Saturday, though he wouldn’t be drawn on how much time Schleck would need in order to hold off Contador. “We’ve been talking about that for two weeks now,” he said. “I don’t know.”_
> _Nor did Riis know whether Schleck’s attack on the Port de Bales would have been successful, had his chain not come off. “I’m not sure because Contador was on his way back to Andy,” said Riis. “To be honest, I don’t really see one of them [as being] stronger than the other on the climbs.”_


----------



## QuiQuaeQuod

Pablo said:


> Can someone 'splaim me the logic why you can't attack when there's a mechanical in road racing? I think it's ok to do so in an mtb race where a mechanical is much more likely. Is this an all out race or a who has more cadio-a-thon?


In MTB racing, the rider is responsible for their own bike. They cannot take any outside help to fix the bike, so it is a part of the rules that mechanical problems are the RIDER'S problem. Even there, there is an etiquette. There are cases of pros who accepted a tube or tool, finished the race, and then DQ'd themselves for getting outside assistance. Plus MTBs have much more variance in technologies, so the tech differences are part of the game.

Road riding has much more standardized equipment to keep the bikes from affecting the outcome, and also have as much assistance as the riders can get. They even have a neutral support car that will give a rider an entire bike. The goal is to take the bike OUT of the equation as much as possible.

Different rules, different situations, different histories, different norms.


----------



## JacoStillLives

Schleck needs to HTFU!!


----------



## goofygoober

Opus51569 said:


> Yeah, if AC wants to argue that mechanical issues are just part of racing, that's one thing. I can respect that. For him to say he didn't know...when he was behind AS at the time...doesn't pass the smell test.
> 
> On a separate but related note...I enjoyed hearing AS use the word "revenge" in is post-race interview. Tuesday and Thursday should be pretty interesting.


If Andy was actually feeling as strong as he claimed, he wouldn't have spent Sunday afternoon glued to Contador's back wheel and would have put serious time into our spanish friend on the climb to Ax-Trois-Domaines. A 30 second adavntage is nowhere near big enough to justify riding like AS did, bearing in mind the time trial on Saturday. He was too over confident and paid the price today. Tough!!


----------



## QuiQuaeQuod

fornaca68 said:


> Contador still has a lot to learn.


One thing he will learn is that the peloton has a long memory, and having more in the peloton who respect you is better than fewer.

One thing I have learned is that reading any more posts in any of these threads won't bring me any new information or perspectives on the stage.


----------



## ru1-2cycle

*High stakes...*



carbonLORD said:


> My point is, waiting for someone for any reason, (crash, mechanical, etc) and expecting that to come back to you is as ridiculous as those who believe in karma.
> 
> People seem to have forgotten that this is a race for high stakes, money, sponsors, fame, etc etc.
> 
> Contador owes his competitors nothing. You can fault Specialized, or SRAM (Shimano?) or Schlecks mechanic.
> 
> This is not fantasy TDF where there is no consequence for failure.[/QUOTE
> I do not believe that AC had a choice about attacking or not if his team manager ordered him to do so.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

I read a lot about "tradition" in the TDF being trespassed by AC.

Did you know that by tradition, the old time TDF riders fixed their own bikes, wheels, changed his tubulars, even welded their forks on the road and kept racing ?


----------



## JohnHenry

rogger said:


> What I like about the classics is that there is none of this nancy whining about waiting for anyone. When you flat, you're f*cked. When you drop a chain, you're f*cked. When you f*ck up, you're f*cked. HTFU.


cross atlantic hug...


----------



## JohnHenry

Too bad Cancellara wasn't there to neutralize the stage....


----------



## JohnHenry

somebody call jan Ullrich...did _he_ wait???


----------



## Buck Satan

I'm no fan of the Fingerbanger, but he did nothing wrong here. Races don't stop for rider mechanicals. This "tradition" is bullcrap and mostly fiction.


----------



## Rhymenocerus

Im a little torn on this whole thing.

Andy has been screwing with AC for days now, he attacked and had a mechanical failure. Karma is a *****.

But then again, AC was 20 meters behind Andy when this happened, he knew exactly what was going on, and I think attacked out of panic. The guy has been testing Andy for weaknesses for days and hasnt found one.

Yeah yeah yeah, its bike racing, blah blah, but in the end AC pulled a really classless move IMO.


----------



## mmoose

Caught the replay at lunch. 

- AC admitted he knew something happened. Not what or how bad.
- heat of the race, you can keep going.
- great riders would have softpedaled a bit if the right information was put in their ear.

So AC may not end up as great in my book, but he doesn't care about that. But it is interesting to see how the court of public opinion will bear out.

One of the reason such 'unwritten rules' exist is to guard against payback. It doesn't take much in the big peloton for a misc rider to dump someone on the ground...accidentally or on pupose. If I were AC, I'd have my team literally surround me every second from here on in and be very wary of any one in the race with a frame pump...it doesn't take much for things to even out like that. So instead, it's much classier to situp, softpedal and wait until you see the competition rolling again. Avoid payback. Keep the sport on the high road.


----------



## Ventruck

north_of_us said:


> Look at the video, AC looks back then SS and DM hit the gas and AC takes their wheel, ease up on the AC hate.



nuh-uhhhhhh. He was the giving them "the look" before he attempting to pwn them in a breakaway.


----------



## Len J

ultimobici said:


> It's possible that it was working fine before and after the incident.
> 
> It is perfectly possible that the limit screws were adjusted so that under "normal" conditions the chain would not be thrown off but, when shifted under stress, would allow the chain to be unshipped. It only takes half a turn in the wrong direction and the cage can move that 1/2mm extra to pop the chain over.
> 
> Under these circumstances it's not a mechanical but a team f### up.
> 
> By the logic expressed by some in this thread, Rudy Dhaenens was robbed of a sure stage win in the 89 Tour and the whole peleton should have stopped to allow him to walk across the line. In reality his mechanic needed a lesson in glueing tubs on properly.


Not to be pedantic, but it seems you are arguing that there are 3 level of mechanical problems

1.) A part breaks. (Der, snaps)
2.) a part is adjusted improperly by the team mechanical (Limit screw is mis-adjusted)
3.) a part is mis-handled by the rider himself (Rider is cross chained and tries to shift too many cogs simotaneously causing a dropped chain)

In light of some of the statements made in this thread, it appears that most would say that in case #1, AC should have waited. In case # 3, many are arguing that AC was OK in attacking since it was rider error. I would argue that even if you hold with #3 being OK for AC to attack, a legitimate argument can be made that because #2 is not in the riders control, that AC should have waited.

Obviously, YMMV.

And as I said above, none of us know for sure if it was a case of #2 or #3.

Len


----------



## Guy Noir

jptaylorsg said:


> "It was NOT a mechanical. NO component failed. The bike worked perfectly BEFORE and AFTER.
> Schleck simply messed up a gear change.


I'm not an expert rider at all, but I do wonder why he would be shifting the front ring at this point in the climb. Shouldn't he already be on the proper front ring before the climb and then only be shifting the rear when the climb and the stresses are extreme?


----------



## Pablo

dr hoo said:


> In MTB racing, the rider is responsible for their own bike. They cannot take any outside help to fix the bike, so it is a part of the rules that mechanical problems are the RIDER'S problem. Even there, there is an etiquette. There are cases of pros who accepted a tube or tool, finished the race, and then DQ'd themselves for getting outside assistance. Plus MTBs have much more variance in technologies, so the tech differences are part of the game.
> 
> Road riding has much more standardized equipment to keep the bikes from affecting the outcome, and also have as much assistance as the riders can get. They even have a neutral support car that will give a rider an entire bike. The goal is to take the bike OUT of the equation as much as possible.
> 
> Different rules, different situations, different histories, different norms.


Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful explanation. I'm not sure I completely agree, especially as pro mtbs now have nuetral support. It also seems like it should be the rider's problem to ride his bike within its means.


----------



## Len J

Guy Noir said:


> I'm not an expert rider at all, but I do wonder why he would be shifting the front ring at this point in the climb. Shouldn't he already be on the proper front ring before the climb and then only be shifting the rear when the climb and the stresses are extreme?


According to someone else in this thread who produced video evidence to support it, Scheck was shifting with his right hand, which would have been the rear cog, not the chainrings, wouldn't it?

Len


----------



## Len J

So if the limit screw was mis-adjusted to allow him to throw a chain, that means the bike is working pervfectly before & after? LOL

Len


----------



## covenant

Rhymenocerus said:


> Andy has been screwing with AC for days now,
> 
> The guy has been testing Andy for weaknesses for days and hasnt found one.


Which is it?


----------



## 32and3cross

Len J said:


> According to someone else in this thread who produced video evidence to support it, Scheck was shifting with his right hand, which would have been the rear cog, not the chainrings, wouldn't it?
> 
> Len


He wasn't shifting with his right hand he was trying to activate the built in motor but missed and threw the bike into reverse gear cause the chain to pop off, then had to get off and re wind up the rubber band motor.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

jwcurry83 said:


> It is a shame that Contador needed to jump on a chance like that to take the yellow jersey... Schleck had taken those 31 seconds from him fair and square, with hard work and determination during the mountains... Contador took it back by taking full advantage of a mechanical failure, which once again showed Alberto's true character. There is still plenty of Tour left...karma is coming back around! Go ANDY!


nope, the 30 seconds were taken by Andi at the Pavé stage when Alberto did had a mechanical ( broken spoke ).

now he took those 30 back, in the same way they exchanged 10 seconds on two stages

The advantage Alberto Contador now has is the effective seconds he put on Andy during the Prologue.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Len J said:


> How can someone say it worked perfectly before & after unless they know that he was in that situation before that momnet, that day.


Well, he has attacked on climbs several times in this Tour, and this is the only time the chain jumped. This much we know. 

As for the rest of the particulars, who knows?

I know that Andy hasn't come out and said that he mis-shifted.


----------



## crazyc

As Achilles said in the ever so bad Troy movie when he was battlling Hector and Hector tripped on a rock and fell. "Get up Hector, I don't want a rock to claim my victory" (or something of that nature.) I think this will happen to AC if he goes on to win. He will not be remembered for beating AS mano e mano but as taking advantage of his rival when down due to a mechanical.


----------



## Len J

ultimobici said:


> True.
> 
> But what about Schleck's DS's view?
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-preaches-calm-in-aftermath-of-schlecks-disappointment


Let's see........He is saying: :"Contador shouldn't have attacked, but he did, Andy has to deal with it." In a roundabout way...how does that support that contador was OK in attacking?

Len


----------



## Len J

32and3cross said:


> He wasn't shifting with his right hand he was trying to activate the built in motor but missed and threw the bike into reverse gear cause the chain to pop off, then had to get off and re wind up the rubber band motor.


LOL...I missed that.


----------



## QuiQuaeQuod

Pablo said:


> Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful explanation. I'm not sure I completely agree, especially as pro mtbs now have nuetral support. .



Shows how long it has been since I paid attention to mtb racing. 

Norms often last well after the rules change.


----------



## Len J

jptaylorsg said:


> Well, he has attacked on climbs several times in this Tour, and this is the only time the chain jumped. This much we know.
> 
> As for the rest of the particulars, who knows?
> 
> I know that Andy hasn't come out and said that he mis-shifted.


True enough, but all the handling these bikes get between stages, I'd be surprised if the drivetrain wasn't tuned daily so it's possible...it wouldn't take much of an adj to be off.

We'll probably never know.

Len


----------



## erol/frost

Buck Satan said:


> I'm no fan of the Fingerbanger, but he did nothing wrong here. Races don't stop for rider mechanicals. This "tradition" is bullcrap and mostly fiction.



You do not attack the Maillot Jaune when he has a puncture/mechanical. Extremely low class


----------



## jptaylorsg

Len J said:


> True enough, but all the handling these bikes get between stages, I'd be surprised if the drivetrain wasn't tuned daily so it's possible...it wouldn't take much of an adj to be off.
> 
> We'll probably never know.
> 
> Len


Either way, I'm not sure it matters.

Opinion seems to fall into two camps: 

1. Alberto should have waited no matter why Andy's chain came off.
2. Alberto did the right thing, mechanicals are a part of racing, no matter how they happen.

I'm in camp one, but I still like him.

Getting into whether the mechanical is rider, team or equipment failure requires way more time for consideration than the riders have out there to make the call.

I a perfect world, the only "mechanical" I think they should stop for is straight equipment failure (i.e. broken chain), but it's not a perfect world.


----------



## goofygoober

I don't think the words 'Lance' and 'massive attack' belong in the same sentence any more, do you?


----------



## Buck Satan

Can you show me that in the UCI rule book? 

Also please cite other historic examples that do not involve Lance Armstrong and Jan Ulrich.


----------



## covenant

goofygoober said:


> I don't think the words 'Lance' and 'massive attack' belong in the same sentence any more, do you?


Wrong thread?


----------



## 95zpro

Salsa_Lover said:


> Contador didn't saw the malfunction, when you see the video, he attacks and passes Andy and only notice the mechanical later, then he looks puzzled looking back, but the others went with him and he can't just let 3 and 4 go on and he wait for 1.



Agreed; 3 & 4 were attacking as well and it doesn't appear that AC knew what was going on with Andy until he was already down the road. I am sure that if everyone had known that Andy was having a problem then they would have stopped attacking and waited for him. 
I hate to say it but that is why as the race leader yesterday I didn't like Andy's strategy of just riding AC's wheel yesterday because a broken spoke, flat etc. could ruin your chances; just ask Lance after stage 3. What if this had happened yesterday would everyone expect AC to have pulled over while 3 & 4 were riding away down the road ?


----------



## Salsa_Lover

This is not the same as the Ulrich/Pharmstrong events.

Andy didn’t crashed, he just mishandled his bike and droped his chain, it was not a “mechanical” because the bike was fully operative, it was just operator’s error.

And also, when Chavanel was in Yellow on the Pavés and he suffered 2 flats, nobody wait for him…. and guess whose team profited of the situation to recover the yellow Jersey then ?

Also at the same stage, AC had a mechanical, he broke an spoke and had to ride Kms on an untrue wheel… nobody wait for him too and for that reason he lost the 30 seconds that made Andy the race leader later on.

AC just recovered those 30 seconds today. the only seconds AC has on Andi now where the ones AC won over Andi at the Prologue.

The race is even again.


----------



## Kaleo

Are there any links to video's of AC being jeered while accepting the yellow jersey?


----------



## coreyb

Salsa_Lover said:


> This is not the same as the Ulrich/Pharmstrong events.
> 
> Andy didn’t crashed, he just mishandled his bike and droped his chain, it was not a “mechanical” because the bike was fully operative, it was just operator’s error.


It isn't 100% clear that AS mishandled his bike. But even if he did, wasn't Ulrich's crash a matter of mishandling his bike? Armstrong's crash a matter of choosing to ride too close to the spectators?


Salsa_Lover said:


> Also at the same stage, AC had a mechanical, he broke an spoke and had to ride Kms on an untrue wheel… nobody wait for him too and for that reason he lost the 30 seconds that made Andy the race leader later on.
> 
> AC just recovered those 30 seconds today. the only seconds AC has on Andi now where the ones AC won over Andi at the Prologue.
> 
> The race is even again.


Not the same thing. Was there any indication at the time that AC had a mechanical issue? Had he stopped for a wheel, that would be comparable. But you can't expect an opponent to wait because of an unknown event


----------



## Salsa_Lover

Why did you left out this paragraph from your quotation ?




Salsa_Lover said:


> And also, when Chavanel was in Yellow on the Pavés and he suffered 2 flats, nobody wait for him…. and guess whose team profited of the situation to recover the yellow Jersey then ?


----------



## albert owen

Cavendish is at the bottom of this IMO. This spate of poor behaviour all started when he failed to wait for Tyler in that sprint a couple of days ago. He should be DQed!

Message to the whole Peleton:
Racing against anyone cute will henceforth be seen as Un-Gentlemanly Conduct and dealt with severely.


----------



## louise

It's a race. Why do people not want them to race?

If one of them dropped a chain, or mis-shifted, too bad.

It's a race. You think Hinault would have waited for a dropped chain?

Contador did the right thing, he kept Menchov and Sanchez in line rather than surrendering the podium to them because he was standing around on the side of the road waiting for Andy to put his chain back on.

He should have put 2 minutes in.

Why are so many of the racers in this stupid event crying whenever they have a TV camera on them????


----------



## coreyb

Salsa_Lover said:


> Why did you left out this paragraph from your quotation ?


Because I don't recall the stage very well and failed to bring my DVR to work with me. 

That said, isn't flatting a specific known risk in riding cobbles?


----------



## Salsa_Lover

You are contradicting yourself, you are saying is classless not to wait for the yellow jersey when he has a mechanical.

but Cancellara and Andy didn't wait for Chavanel when he was having his mechanicals in yellow.

same case as today.


----------



## jptaylorsg

coreyb said:


> That said, isn't flatting a specific known risk in riding cobbles?


Isn't it specifically known that chains can come off bikes under heavy pedaling load?


----------



## terzo rene

It's quite likely AC is going to win the final TT by double what he gained today so I doubt his victory will be tainted in the least. Even if it were in some people's minds, memories and very short and even more pliable. During the Tour and for some time afterward LA said Ullrich didn't wait, now he says he did. Not the first time he's changed his story about something and won't be the last but it certainly shows how emotions can alter perceptions.

Merckx really didn't need to worry about how the peloton felt about his racing - can't hook somebody into the ditch when you are struggling to keep him in sight.


----------



## Pablo

dr hoo said:


> Norms often last well after the rules change.


That's no doubt true. I haven't seen the video and it's hard to know what rider error was involved and all that. I see some real inherent flaws in these sorts of shaky, vaugue, unwritten rules about when to wait and when not to.


----------



## coreyb

Salsa_Lover said:


> You are contradicting yourself, you are saying is classless not to wait for the yellow jersey when he has a mechanical.


I'm saying what?

Regardless, I note that you didn't really bother replying to the points I made. If you are going to complain about me contradicting myself, you ought to deal with your own contradictions


----------



## coreyb

jptaylorsg said:


> Isn't it specifically known that chains can come off bikes under heavy pedaling load?


I suppose.


----------



## MattSoutherden

Can't believe some of the c**p in this thread.

I'm all for Andy, but he attacked when Contador was towards the back of the front group. He must have been told to attack by the car when Contador wasn't on his wheel.

If he'd had the mechanical when he was riding tempo in the group, then wait. But he'd made a big gap with the attack. You can't have it both ways.

Why didn't Saxo ease up when Roche punctured towards the base of the climb?

It's harsh, but that's life.

Should make the next two stages interesting.


----------



## jwcurry83

Buck Satan said:


> Can you show me that in the UCI rule book?


PART VII: Unsportsmanlike D*!k Moves
SECTION A: Improper attacking of the Maillot Jaune
SUB-SECTION C: Obvious "No No's"

PUNISHMENT: Attacking party will be booed on the podium!


----------



## KenS

Len J said:


> Wonder if he'll say the same thing after he actually watches it.
> 
> D'uh
> 
> Len


I agree. I think that the replies of a lot of the peloton will change after they have had a chance to watch the videos.


----------



## goloso

Len J said:


> I've never dropped a chain on the outside of the cog for any other reason than an improperly set limit screw adjustment. When I have done this because of a bad limit screw setup, I've been very careful afterward to not over-shift the cog. From the looks of how he fixed the chain, it appears that this is a bike set up problem not a rider shift mistake. To say it worked perfectly when a limit screw was improperly set is incorrect (if that is what happened).
> 
> How can someone say it worked perfectly before & after unless they know that he was in that situation before that momnet, that day.
> 
> Of course, we are all guessing.
> 
> No one has yet supported a mis-shift to me based on where the chain ended up.
> 
> Len


Are you saying he was shifting into his 53/11 and the chain jumped over the bottom cog? 

I know the guy is a goat, but wow! I have not done any Zapruder film frame by frame analysis but It would not surprise me if he dumped it into the bottom cog while in his 39. When the chain flexed during shifting it caught on the big ring . The big ring carries the chain into the derailleur which is still over the 39 and that sort of locks everything up. Take it from a guy that rode a triple for years.  

By the way, How is AC supposed to know if this is an _RBR Approved (tm)_ attack when he is hammering up some steep-ass climb? Its OK to attack if he first confirms that it was a missed shift?


----------



## jptaylorsg

terzo rene said:


> It's quite likely AC is going to win the final TT by double what he gained today so I doubt his victory will be tainted in the least. Even if it were in some people's minds, memories and very short and even more pliable. During the Tour and for some time afterward LA said Ullrich didn't wait, now he says he did. Not the first time he's changed his story about something and won't be the last but it certainly shows how emotions can alter perceptions.


Agree.

I seem to remember the kerfuffle was that allegedly Ullrich didn't slow up, and Tyler had to tell everyone to slow.

Then everyone said it was OK because Ullrich didn't attack but was just riding tempo, and it takes him a long time to "diesel up to speed on the hills," so slowing would have screwed him.

Now it seems everybody feels like he waited.

Looking at today's footage, Andy jumped and Bert chased him quickly. Andy slowed because of a mechanical, but Bert didn't look at him on the way by (I imagine he was focused on the road and straining.

Menchov and Sanchez looked like they were standing still until Alberto was quite a ways up the hill, at which point they caught up to him - probably because he had slowed a bit.

When the three of them were together, they all kept going, marking each other.

It is at this last point that it would have been a gracious and classy move for Contador to have asked Sanchez and Menchov to slow up and wait for Andy, but he didn't.

I don't blame him, but I kind of wish he would have slowed them.


----------



## sanrensho

MattSoutherden said:


> Why didn't Saxo ease up when Roche punctured towards the base of the climb?


Are you kidding? Roche wasn't wearing or even sniffing the yellow jersey.


----------



## ph0enix

I would totally expect that from Contador. I think Andy will steal the YJ from him again though.


----------



## yater

97G8tr said:


> I'd love to see old man Lance lead Andy up the mtn as a guise for his own 'win' and launch Schleck.


I don't think Lance has the ability anymore, but I'd LOVE to see RS help him out. They may as well....they don't have any other purpose at this point.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

Conti talks about today's stage.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

Conti talks about today's events


----------



## yater

Salsa_Lover said:


> nope, the 30 seconds were taken by Andi at the Pavé stage when Alberto did had a mechanical ( broken spoke ).
> 
> now he took those 30 back, in the same way they exchanged 10 seconds on two stages
> 
> The advantage Alberto Contador now has is the effective seconds he put on Andy during the Prologue.



"NOPE"....remember that 10 seconds yesterday that "didn't matter"?? When AC "ruined Vino's stage win"? That's the difference, right there.


----------



## velodog

I could be reading something in that wasn't there but it seems that AC had been doing a pretty good job of understanding English and answering in halting English, until today. Today he couldn't understand English and answered in Spanish, could he have been being evasive?


----------



## terzo rene

Some of you better hope your significant others don't read these threads. After all the times you got upset that they expected you to be a mind reader we now find out you can not only divine what AC knew and when but also what he was thinking as a result (and the same ability with Menchov and Sanchez in some cases). Start working on your explanations now. ;-)


----------



## Salsa_Lover

yater said:


> "NOPE"....remember that 10 seconds yesterday that "didn't matter"?? When AC "ruined Vino's stage win"? That's the difference, right there.


Andi took 10 one day, Conti took 10 later, both climbing

Conti lost 30 seconds to Andi on the Pavés he took them back today, both due to mechanicals

the advantage Conti has now, was taken on the Prologue

the field is even.


----------



## sanrensho

velodog said:


> Today he couldn't understand English and answered in Spanish, could he have been being evasive?


Have you ever spoken in a second language? When the subject matter is important, it's perfectly normal to want to speak in your mother tongue, if you aren't perfectly fluent in the second language.


----------



## jptaylorsg

velodog said:


> I could be reading something in that wasn't there but it seems that AC had been doing a pretty good job of understanding English and answering in halting English, until today. Today he couldn't understand English and answered in Spanish, could he have been being evasive?


This is ridiculous. Is it only possible to be evasive in Spanish? 

Is direct translation not available or reliable in this day and age?

Maybe he's never heard of Babelfish.com.

Or is it possible the questions he got today were about a specific situation and not the same, "How did you do today, Alberto?" questions he's heard a trillion times and no longer needs translations for? 

He always has the translator there and uses him often.


----------



## KenS

velodog said:


> I could be reading something in that wasn't there but it seems that AC had been doing a pretty good job of understanding English and answering in halting English, until today. Today he couldn't understand English and answered in Spanish, could he have been being evasive?


Today was different from the easy pitches of the past. It was not "how are you feeling?" Instead it was "did you see this and why did you do this..." He was pretty nervous in the interview and wanted to make sure his statements were as he intended.

I didn't find his explanation to be very convincing. Basically, it was "I saw nothing."

A better explanation (whether acceptable or not) would have been Schleck screwed up and I took advantage.


----------



## HIMEHEEM

They all should have stopped. That would have been a lovely spot for a picnic.


----------



## louise

I'm having trouble understanding some of you.

If I drop a chain on the Tuesday night ride, or on the Saturday morning hammerfest, no-one waits for me.

I catch up, or I go home.


Why should the TdF be easier than that???


----------



## velodog

sanrensho said:


> Have you ever spoken in a second language? When the subject matter is important, it's perfectly normal to want to speak in your mother tongue, if you aren't perfectly fluent in the second language.


No, I haven't, but I truely understand what you are saying. In the short clip that I saw I didn't hear the translation and that's why I asked the question.
I still don't know if he wanted to give an honest answer in his Mother tongue or get the hell out of there and put a good answer together.


----------



## redlizard

Seriously, if you had taken the yellow jersey this way and were standing on the podium accepting it with people booing you, would you still be smiling and shooting your pistol?


----------



## Italophile

Mmmm, potato salad....


----------



## albert owen

Len J said:


> So if the limit screw was mis-adjusted to allow him to throw a chain, that means the bike is working pervfectly before & after? LOL
> 
> Len


Did I say the limit screws weren't adjusted correctly? :nono: 
Was the chain coming off before and after Schleck's mis-shift? :nono:


----------



## louise

redlizard said:


> Seriously, if you had taken the yellow jersey this way and were standing on the podium accepting it with people booing you, would you still be smiling and shooting your pistol?



Yes.

It's a race.


People seem to be forgetting that.


----------



## Jesse D Smith

ttug said:


> Contador, WHAT A JACK WAGON


And hiding your actions being a *bold face lie* does nothing to help recover your reputation. Perhaps Contador has no desire to take over the role as respected patron. He's certainly distancing himself from every earning that role.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Jesse D Smith said:


> *bold face lie*


Care to elaborate on what the bald-faced lie was? Feel free to include how you came across this information


----------



## JSR

Salsa_Lover said:


> Conti talks about today's events


Thanks for posting that, Salsa_Lover. I was all prepared to work up a good hate for Contador, a rider I had not learned to like even with his high level of competitiveness.

That video shows a touch of class to acknowledge the problem, and to the extent possible, apologize for it.

Chapeau!

zjdt


----------



## Jesse D Smith

The The said:


> Armstrong waited for Ullrich when he had a flat. The same rule should apply here.


Actually, Armstrong waited for Ullrich when Jan had run off the road, absolutely through his own fault, no mechanical, no road debris, simple inability to guide his own bike, running straight through a turn.


----------



## Big Baby Jesus

I blame it all on that SRAM double tap shifter. In all seriousness I thought it was a bit dirty, not the behavior of a champion. They say that Ali's most famous moment was when he dropped Forman and did not tag him on the way down, he knew he had won.


----------



## mikeman

louise said:


> I'm having trouble understanding some of you.
> 
> If I drop a chain on the Tuesday night ride, or on the Saturday morning hammerfest, no-one waits for me.
> 
> I catch up, or I go home.
> 
> 
> Why should the TdF be easier than that???


I was thinking the exact same thing. Does anyone think Alberto knew, as he passed Schleck exactly what the problem was that caused him to slow? I doubt Contador knew what happened until he got radio information from his team car.


----------



## yater

Salsa_Lover said:


> I read a lot about "tradition" in the TDF being trespassed by AC.
> 
> Did you know that by tradition, the old time TDF riders fixed their own bikes, wheels, changed his tubulars, even welded their forks on the road and kept racing ?



Yeah....lots of traditions in the TdF 

(from 1904):



> it was a strange Tour and no one is sure exactly what happened. Because the stages were so long, the riders were required to ride at night. Even with Desgrange's men doing what they could to watch the race, cheating was easy. Some were accused of hopping in a car. Others took trains


BTW, I love the old pics of the guys with tires around their necks...and smoking cigarettes/sharing a flask of whiskey at the summits. Needless to say, things have changed (except for cheating).


----------



## Jesse D Smith

*AC-"I didn't know.."*

Exhibit A


----------



## stevesbike

one thing that set the Tour apart from other sports was sportsmanship and respect- some examples mentioned are armstrong/ullrich and the front group waiting when armstrong crashed. A great champion would have waited. worst part is Contador's lie that he didn't realize schleck had a mechanical. At least the french, who understand the culture of the Tour, booed Contador at the ceremony. hollow win...


----------



## ilovejuve

contador is a stinker. i have known this for a while. real jackass. and this bullcrap about him not knowing about a malfunction is more bs. he was looking at schlecks ass when it happened. he will do anything to win.jackass!


----------



## JoelS

I don't know about you, but I never feel good when I win something due to a mechanical amongst my competitors. I want it to be a fair contest, straight up, man on man. What AC did today was against that. He can't feel good about it.

Andy now has quite a bit of anger, and I expect the peloton won't be happy about AC's actions either. I think the next couple of stages will be very interesting.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Jesse D Smith said:


> Exhibit A


What does this picture prove?


----------



## Wilier_speed

I wouldn't want a pissed off Andy Schleck chasing after me. He's going to make Contador pay... mark my words.


----------



## mfarra1

i personaly dont like AC but i have no issue with him attacking when AS broke down. its racing..


----------



## heffergm

I have to say, at first I was of the opinion that there's no way he should have waited. Too many other factors to consider at the time. 

I've since had a rethink and decided one of the really special things about the tour is proving you're the best and not just winning. I think the move schleck made right before that mechanical would have left conti hanging 20 seconds off the back on the desent and he got really worried. I think it would have been fantastic had he soft pedaled it to let schleck come back, but he didn't and that's that. I think it's been decided at this point, but I have a suspicion Sanchez and menchov smell blood....


----------



## ilovejuve

reading some stupid comments like "its a RACE"
i pray contador falls on the champs elysees and schleck attacks....but that would make andy look bad. andy must come out looking lilly white. if you gonna beat andy, do it properly. i for one will NEVER buy anything with astana or specialized on it. not one red cent of my money will support a team with that STINK race ethic.
flush contador down the toilet. he stinks!!


----------



## robdamanii

Salsa_Lover said:


> nope, the 30 seconds were taken by Andi at the Pavé stage when Alberto did had a mechanical ( broken spoke ).
> 
> now he took those 30 back, in the same way they exchanged 10 seconds on two stages
> 
> The advantage Alberto Contador now has is the effective seconds he put on Andy during the Prologue.


Repeat after me:

Contador...was...not...in...the...yellow...jersey...on...the...pave.

End of story. Period.


----------



## whezz

chavanel?


----------



## Jesse D Smith

coreyb said:


> How exactly is it ridiculous? I'm not quite understanding the comparison to karma
> Nobody has forgotten that there are stakes. But there is precedent for acting honorably rather than taking advantage of such situations.


Some people believe actions can completely disappear-*poof*, without a trace, leaving no like-natured legacy behind. You throw the ball in the air and it never comes down.
The "that's racing" argument reminds me of the scene in Red Rock West where Nicholas Cage is in need of money, walks into an empty gas station, sees an open cash register containing plenty of green bills, engages in an internal debate, and walks away. 
The cyclingnews.com article said, "Contador couldn't afford to wait.." I suppose the character in the movie couldn't afford to not steal the money. It all depends on your priorities.


----------



## thesmokingman

Jesse D Smith said:


> The cyclingnews.com article said, "Contador couldn't afford to wait.." I suppose the character in the movie couldn't afford to not steal the money. It all depends on your priorities.


Which brings into question his code of honor...


----------



## Frith

Such polarized opinions here.
Mine falls somewhere in between. I don't think he should have waited and I don't think he should have attacked. He should have rode tempo the moment he passed Andy and noticed there was a problem (and no one is buying the whole I didn't see anything excuse). He clearly attacked and this is what I take issue with.


----------



## Jesse D Smith

jptaylorsg said:


> What does this picture prove?


Nothing, in and of itself. It's just another bit of evidence to take into consideration, along with fact that minutes passed between the incident and the top of the climb where radio communications were taking place, information was being passed, and taking honorable actions based on that information was an option.


----------



## ilovejuve

the tour is not some stupid little crit. we hope to see men go to war. when someone attacks when the other is down, you are not witnessing a battle. you are witnessing a frightened little punk take advantage whenever he can. if you go to see manny pacquiao vs floyd mayweather, and at the start of the last round something goes in pacquiao's eye and he holds up, then mayweather jumps on him and pummels him, is that the war you paid to see, or is that a stupiid ass taking advantage. yes, by some of your threads, IT IS A FIGHT, but it is not in the spirit of the war. 
FLUSH THAT STINKER CONTADOR DOWN THE TOILET!!!!


----------



## 97G8tr

yater said:


> I don't think Lance has the ability anymore, but I'd LOVE to see RS help him out. They may as well....they don't have any other purpose at this point.


Yep - I agree but might as well give it a go.


----------



## stevesbike

jptaylorsg said:


> What does this picture prove?


you don't need a pic. contador would have to be blind not to realize AS had a mechanical.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

Salsa_Lover said:


> Conti talks about today's stage.


sounds like he knows he screwed up and is saying sorry...the part about Andy attacking on the cobbles is irrelevant as he wasn't in yellow then.


----------



## ilovejuve

contador proves yet again that he is a little punk with no class. truly afraid of andy. poor boy. what a spectacular ass!!!!!
utterly disappointed. that lance did not tear into him in the press sucks as well. trying to be diplomatic but he knows all too well what an ass AC is.
FLUSH CONTADOR DOWN THE TOILET. HE STINKS SOMETHING FIERCE!!


----------



## mangotreat0808

*O.K. Corral meets Port de Balès?*

I felt really bad seeing what unfolded when Andy attacked, and his chain decided to take a nap on the Port de Balès. The initial shock just exploded into a delirium for me cuz I knew he launched something, like launching a missile, or pulling a trigger which would reverberate a series of actions that could leave in its wake such a damage, a wreckage of his overall standing. What AC did by following suite is part of the reverberation in reaction to Andy's attack. Now, should he have stopped a reaction to such an attack when he was already in full stride? I think that decision based on the context of when it happened should not be faulted as being uncool or against code. It's like someone draws their gun (ala western shootout), you draw yours and you see that your opponent's gun doesn't fire, basically a dud - can you unpress your trigger, when you see your bullet already shooting out of the barrel? and keep in mind there's a couple of other master marksmen in your midst (Sammy, Dennis) almost like the Port de Balès meets the OK Corral. I think what happened to Andy, whom I happen to like, is collateral damage in a race filled to the gills of adrenaline (not e.p.o.  I still feel very sorry for Andy.:cryin:


----------



## Lumbergh

OTOH, AS was only 13 seconds back as of the top of the climb - he lost the bulk of his time on the way down - what's to say AC wouldn't have dropped him on the way down, mechanical or not?


----------



## wipeout

carbonLORD said:


> My point is, waiting for someone for any reason, (crash, mechanical, etc) and expecting that to come back to you is as ridiculous as those who believe in karma.
> 
> People seem to have forgotten that this is a race for high stakes, money, sponsors, fame, etc etc.
> 
> Contador owes his competitors nothing. You can fault Specialized, or SRAM (Shimano?) or Schlecks mechanic.
> 
> This is not fantasy TDF where there is no consequence for failure.


It's not if you win or lose, it's HOW you win or lose. Even if Contador wins the whole thing, he still lost it all today.


----------



## ilovejuve

at least the punk had the balls to come out slightly apologetic. though he may be totally faking it, i now have 3.65% of respect left for him.


----------



## kini

Only in cycling, jeez, might as well put skirts on em and have ride Hello Kitty bikes already. 

No other form of "racing" does anyone EVER wait for someone for ANY reason. Life's a ***** deal with it. 

Plus Schleck (sp) did it to himself hammer on the large front ring, hit a bump (can clearly see the rear wheel hop when the chain came off) as he was probably shifting at the same time. 

Time for them boys to grow some (without the roids) and actually race.


----------



## ronbo613

Contador could have shown a little more class.

Schleck could have done a little better job shifting his $8,000 bike.

Guys like us have a couple days to drink beer and talk about it on the internet.

Schleck and Contador have a couple days to settle their differences on the Col du Tourmalet.


Love the Tour de France.


----------



## Hawayyan

*I just find it interesting....*

the amount of utter hatred some people have for someone they have never met, who is just a bike rider!!! We watch bike racing, as fans, for recreation and to live vicariously through them, and take some of the edge off our mundane, ho-hum every day lives. If you get this pi$$ed off at your recreation, maybe its time to take up bowling.


----------



## spade2you

Bad break for Andy, but I don't think Andy would have waited for AC. This is a damn race and they're in it to win it. Even if AS said he would have waited for AC, he'd be a fool to wait as AC will probably put serious time in him in the ITT. 

**** happens. That's racing. 

Had AC waited, Sanchez and Menchov would have not and could have then become a threat to AC and AS.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Jesse D Smith said:


> Nothing, in and of itself. It's just another bit of evidence to take into consideration, along with fact that minutes passed between the incident and the top of the climb where radio communications were taking place, information was being passed, and taking honorable actions based on that information was an option.


Rewatch the video. Contador is reacting to Andy's move and charging up the hill. Schleck does slow a bit, but he is still turning his pedals when Contador goes by him. When he hops off his bike, Contador is far up the hill. It is entirely plausible that he did not know the reason Schleck slowed or that he had slowed at all. Do you concentrate on the mechanical status of your opponent's bike when you are mounting a feverish counterattack on a huge hill?

After a few beats, Contador is way up the hill and looks back and I assume, sees what Schleck is doing (a bit of a leap considering the number of people along the road). At this point, it's fair to say a gentleman would have slowed the race.

But to say he lied when immediately after the race he said he didn't know what happened to Schleck is incorrect and not backed up by your photographic evidence.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Frith said:


> *Such polarized opinions here.
> Mine falls somewhere in between. I don't think he should have waited and I don't think he should have attacked. He should have rode tempo the moment he passed Andy and noticed there was a problem (and no one is buying the whole I didn't see anything excuse). He clearly attacked and this is what I take issue with*.



Bingo. I just got in from walking the pooch and this is the conclusion I've come to as well.

I also think they're both primadonnas. 

The only issue I have with what Cont did was not what he did, but _when_ he did it. I also think if he could have a do-over, he'd choose to do something along the lines of what you mentioned, and I don't think "boo-ing" or Cont bashing is in order.

And Andy needs to calm down.

I hope someone else wins tomorrow. After thinking too much about it, I'm tired of these two already. Snore.


----------



## 95zpro

MaddSkillz said:


> This is the TdF, people! There is so much on the line. Competition isn't about giving your opponent time... There's still so many stages left in this race and Contador could run into mechanical issues himself...
> 
> 
> 
> As I recall AC had problems with a broken spoke during Stage 3 and although he wasn't in yellow nobody waited for him including his own teammate. And as somebody pointed out earlier if this truly was a shifting/rider error should everyone have pulled over and waited?! I think not, I don't care what jersey you are wearing! Part of sport is making errors; throwing an interception, shooting at the wrong goal, even switching into the wrong gear and throwing your chain. I don't think AS would have necessarily waited if the roles were reversed so lets see him finally quite *****-footing around and get up some mountains !


----------



## ultimobici

If anyone thinks AC will lose a second of sleep over fans' reactions to this, then you are in cloud cuckoo land.
In Madrid his actions will be perfectly acceptable. No one there, where his popularity actually matters, will give a rat's ass about AS's loss.

More to the point no rider, past or present appears to be criticising him either save Andy Schleck. 

Well now Schleck knows how Chavanel must have felt on the pave. Sad no one thought to bleat for countless pages about the injustice of attacking when the Jersey has flatted.

Bunch of hypocrites.


----------



## NextTime

Lumbergh said:


> OTOH, AS was only 13 seconds back as of the top of the climb - he lost the bulk of his time on the way down - what's to say AC wouldn't have dropped him on the way down, mechanical or not?


Contador was trading leads at the front during the entire descent, with some of the best descenders in the business.

Schleck wasn't trading leads on the descent.


----------



## dwgranda

Interesting extrapolation from my post. This rule is impossible to apply consistently. Take the same riders and switch places with the mechanical and you have a lot less people complaining (although many still would) so why should Andy be subjected to a lot less scrutiny for doing the same thing? And to top it off he's in the lead! Apparently it's ok to get all the advantage if you're already ahead?



LesDiablesRouges said:


> I'm sorry you didn't grow up in a household with parents that taught you about class, dignity, and integrity ...That is what this whole thing is about ... it's a reflection on society. Fewer an fewer people who want to do things correctly and more of this I want it now, wins at all costs spoiled mentality ...


----------



## cyclejim

Damitletsride! said:


> I think he realized Schleck might have been stronger, so took the one chance he had.
> 
> Armstrong waited for Ullrich before when he crashed or had problems, it's just racing etiquette.
> 
> What a doosh bag.


Doosh bag?lol.


----------



## cyclejim

My Own Private Idaho said:


> Contador beat Shleck's bike, not Andy.


Best post in the entire thread


----------



## slow_twitch

"What would Jens do?"


----------



## bdx1366

All this talk of class and the ethics and honour in the tour, Do some research on the history of the tour back to day one, you guys are living in a fantasy world, The history of the tour is full of taking advantage when the leader is down, go read some books there are more then enough about the tour.

If you think what happened today was bad sportsmanship. it is nothing compared to 20, 30, 40 etc years ago. 

I like Schleck but he made a tactical error today, he had no need to try to attack while in yellow.

and as such should blame himself and no one else.

he got a gift when Cancellara slowed things down for him to catch up at the begginning of the tour when he went down.

it is a race after all.


----------



## bdx1366

ultimobici said:


> If anyone thinks AC will lose a second of sleep over fans' reactions to this, then you are in cloud cuckoo land.
> In Madrid his actions will be perfectly acceptable. No one there, where his popularity actually matters, will give a rat's ass about AS's loss.
> 
> More to the point no rider, past or present appears to be criticising him either save Andy Schleck.
> 
> Well now Schleck knows how Chavanel must have felt on the pave. Sad no one thought to bleat for countless pages about the injustice of attacking when the Jersey has flatted.
> 
> Bunch of hypocrites.


Well said


----------



## cyclejim

otiebob said:


> Umm, Schleck should know better than to try to shift into the big ring under extreme load uphill. User error, not a mechanical. Moreover, he was in the act of attacking so they countered- its racing. Schleck already had the whole race stopped so he could catchup via Cancellara at the beginning of the tour. How many gimmes does he get? He can't stay on his bike and he can't shift. Do you think Hinault would have waited in a case like this? I doubt it seriously. Sure, Contador could have waited as could Menchov and Sanchez but they didn't but its not the sin so many people seem to think it is...


What shift? Watch the replay please.


----------



## bdx1366

Jesse D Smith said:


> Nothing, in and of itself. It's just another bit of evidence to take into consideration, along with fact that minutes passed between the incident and the top of the climb where radio communications were taking place, information was being passed, and taking honorable actions based on that information was an option.


the funny thing about your posts is that your signature tends to contradict your arguments,
or is that just you trying to be artsy be quoting someone


----------



## Perico

Lumbergh said:


> OTOH, AS was only 13 seconds back as of the top of the climb - he lost the bulk of his time on the way down - what's to say AC wouldn't have dropped him on the way down, mechanical or not?


Well, the fact that AC had one of the best descenders in the world helping him get down and had many people taking turns, while AS only had himself and two anchors leads me to believe he would not have been dropped if they had all been in a group. 

Of course this is all based on the assumption that AC actually catches AS on the climb.


----------



## cyclejim

shabbasuraj said:


> I can put a dropped chain back on in 7 seconds, and not 30 seconds,
> 
> Unclip, grab chain, put onto small chain ring, immediately spin the wheel, and jump back on.
> 
> I guess pro riders should learn some basic wrenching skills. /endthread


Really? Can you do it right after your chain drops while you are attacking on one of the most important stages of the tdf while you are in yellow and your adrenaline is pumping out of your chest? You are a real man.


----------



## 55x11

Frith said:


> Such polarized opinions here.
> Mine falls somewhere in between. I don't think he should have waited and I don't think he should have attacked. He should have rode tempo the moment he passed Andy and noticed there was a problem (and no one is buying the whole I didn't see anything excuse). He clearly attacked and this is what I take issue with.


This is precisely right. It's not a clear-cut black-or-white issue. Contador was not obligated to stop and wait by the side of the road with others for Schleck. But he should not have taken advantage of situation either - at least not as blatantly as he did. Prior to Schleck's incident they were riding relatively easy tempo - after previous push by Schleck nobody (Menshov/Contado/Sanchez) wanted to push the pace, so they all slowed down letting Leipheimer, Gesink and others catch up. So it's not like they were so interested in keeping 2nd tier climbers - Leipheimer &Co - separated. They should have ridden similar tempo, and I believe Schleck would have caught on by the end of the climb - if not, too bad for him. Instead they (primarily Contador, but Menchov and Sanchez benefited from it too) picked up the pace as high as they could, dropping everyone - including Vino. That was questionable tactic - especially since if Contador goes ahead to win, it will be to some extend mired in this controversy. Does he really want to win this way? Does he want people think that he won only because of chain incident, not because he is the strongest rider?

I think too it would have shown a lot of class if he rode steady tempo instead of pulling himself inside out to take advantage of this opportunity to take yellow. I think he could have easily afforded to wait, and we would be all talking about how classy rider Alberto is. Would Schleck wait for him if tables were reversed? I am not sure, but I suspect he would, I really do. I do think he wants to win this tour by beating Contador on one of the mountain stages and proving he is the best rider, or not win at all.


----------



## Perico

Reading some of the posts along the lines of "it's a race" makes two things clear:

1) Some of you need to figure out that your local spin is not anything like the Tour and never will be.

2) Some of you have never played any sport at a high level.


----------



## sir duke

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I hope someone else wins tomorrow. After thinking too much about it, I'm tired of these two already. Snore.


Yeah, I'm tired of them too. Bring back Lance, we miss you buddy....:thumbsup:


----------



## Perico

cyclejim said:


> Really? Can you do it right after your chain drops while you are attacking on one of the most important stages of the tdf while you are in yellow and your adrenaline is pumping out of your chest? You are a real man.


What are you talking about?!?!?! Don't you know that racing a pro race is the same as your local group ride or your weekend spin?!?!?! :crazy:


----------



## stevesbike

kini said:


> Only in cycling, jeez, might as well put skirts on em and have ride Hello Kitty bikes already.
> 
> No other form of "racing" does anyone EVER wait for someone for ANY reason. Life's a ***** deal with it.
> 
> Plus Schleck (sp) did it to himself hammer on the large front ring, hit a bump (can clearly see the rear wheel hop when the chain came off) as he was probably shifting at the same time.
> 
> Time for them boys to grow some (without the roids) and actually race.


some people need to learn a lot about this sport...


----------



## JimT

AC is a Jackwad!!!! But not for not waiting I just dont like him. I think if a rider is expected to wait for another rider for any reason it should be put in the rules or else it's sorry 'bout your bad luck.... I seriously hated to see that happen because I think Contador was about to get the SMACKDOWN!!!


----------



## shomyoface

I think not attacking the maillot jaune during a mechanical/fall etc is a dumb tradition. It's a race, siht happens. I recall plenty of mishaps during Paris Roubaix, an example would be Thor chasing and falling in the corner, should Boonen and Cancellara sat up and waited, hell no! Was it unreasonable for Cancellara to attack during Flanders when Boonen slipped to the back of the group....stupid question, I know. 

It's a bike race, attack when you sense weakness. It was AS's fault anyway, who shifts like that during an attack anyway.


----------



## TmaxR

kini said:


> Only in cycling, jeez...
> 
> No other form of "racing" does anyone EVER wait for someone for ANY reason.


And in no other form of racing is there head-butting at the finish line. Go figure.

But seriously, when I first started watching "The Tour" many years ago, I thought, "How quaint!". There are so many traditions and unwritten rules that seemingly have nothing to do with "win at all costs" racing. Why don't they press the advantage when a rider stops to pee? Why don't they attack in the feed zone? Why is the final ride into Paris so processional? A code of honor? Please! ---- I find it all so refreshing.

As for today's big controversy, I think OEH, somewhere in all these threads, hit the nail on the head; the answer to "Should he have waited or should he have gone?" lies in a grey area. It could be seen as a mechanical that delayed AS or it could be seen as rider error. Probably a bit of both. I have sympathies for arguments for either choice and I'm sure AC was riding in that grey area for a moment before he decided to press on. Ultimately I come down on the side of the gentlemanly sport; wait for your opponent to rejoin the fray.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Ryder Hesjdal's take:

"It's bike racing. They attacked, and Andy had a mechanical, and they weren't going to wait for him, that's for sure."

Seems simple enough.


----------



## dwestov

I really have to question the comparisons to stage 3 and today. AC was in the group behind Schleck when he had the wheel problem. If you are in a different group and have a mechanical, crash or flat the group already ahead of you will not care in the slightest, nor will they change a thing about how they ride. Now if you want to question the tactic of increasing speed when your own rider crashes with no one around him and slows down everyone except the first handful of riders, that I may understand.


----------



## dwgranda

You needed to read the posts in this thread to figure that out? What's your point?


----------



## Perico

shomyoface said:


> I think not attacking the maillot jaune during a mechanical/fall etc is a dumb tradition. It's a race, siht happens. I recall plenty of mishaps during Paris Roubaix, an example would be Thor chasing and falling in the corner, should Boonen and Cancellara sat up and waited, hell no! Was it unreasonable for Cancellara to attack during Flanders when Boonen slipped to the back of the group....stupid question, I know.
> 
> It's a bike race, attack when you sense weakness. It was AS's fault anyway, who shifts like that during an attack anyway.


The Tour is different then a classic on the Pave.


----------



## TmaxR

jptaylorsg said:


> Ryder Hesjdal's take:
> 
> "It's bike racing. They attacked, and Andy had a mechanical, and they weren't going to wait for him, that's for sure."
> 
> Seems simple enough.


Typical mountain biker!


----------



## 88 rex

shomyoface said:


> It's a bike race, attack when you sense weakness. It was AS's fault anyway, who shifts like that during an attack anyway.



1) This wasn't a weakness. It was an unfortunate mishap. Bonking would be a weakness. Not being able to respond to an attack would be a weakness. our chain jumping ship is not a weakness

2) He didn't shift. At least not IMO from all the video available.

3) AC has every right to attack, but IMO, it shows a sign of weakness . When you're battling 1 on 1, I think you have to "man up" and fight toe to toe.


----------



## Fixed

*jerk*

He's a jerk. Never liked him, and for sure now never will.


----------



## 97G8tr

Ditto.


----------



## ph0enix

velodog said:


> I could be reading something in that wasn't there but it seems that AC had been doing a pretty good job of understanding English and answering in halting English, until today. Today he couldn't understand English and answered in Spanish, could he have been being evasive?


I hate his interviews in English. He never says anything of substance because his command of the language is very poor. I much prefer the translated AC interviews.


----------



## thesmokingman

AC is kind of a wuss to be stealing time like this.


----------



## rtarh2o

fornaca68 said:


> I think the point is that the leader's jersey -- not just any other GC hopeful -- shouldn't be attacked because of a crash or mechanical. An unwritten rule I suppose. See, e.g., 2003 TdF when Lance in yellow crashed and Tyler Hamilton directed Ullrich and Co. to slow it down.


Lance also waited for Ulrich the year before I think after he went off the road, seems like Lance was in the yellow at the time too. 
I think the difference is the fact that this a multi day stage race compared to a one day mountain or road race where there is no yellow jersey, just a one shot deal so you have to take advantage of every opportunity you can in a one day race. 
Rusty


----------



## cruso414

carbonLORD said:


> My point is, waiting for someone for any reason, (crash, mechanical, etc) and expecting that to come back to you is as ridiculous as those who believe in karma.
> 
> People seem to have forgotten that this is a race for high stakes, money, sponsors, fame, etc etc.
> 
> Contador owes his competitors nothing. You can fault Specialized, or SRAM (Shimano?) or Schlecks mechanic.
> 
> This is not fantasy TDF where there is no consequence for failure.


you should start watching the NBA, more along your lines of sportsmanship.


----------



## cruso414

[/QUOTE
I do not believe that AC had a choice about attacking or not if his team manager ordered him to do so.[/QUOTE]
like ****-a-dor ever listened to anything his DS ordered him to do. he's a douchebag anyway you cut it.


----------



## 55x11

ultimobici said:


> If anyone thinks AC will lose a second of sleep over fans' reactions to this, then you are in cloud cuckoo land.
> In Madrid his actions will be perfectly acceptable. No one there, where his popularity actually matters, will give a rat's ass about AS's loss.
> 
> More to the point no rider, past or present appears to be criticising him either save Andy Schleck.
> 
> Well now Schleck knows how Chavanel must have felt on the pave. Sad no one thought to bleat for countless pages about the injustice of attacking when the Jersey has flatted.
> 
> Bunch of hypocrites.


ulti - 
1. If AC wants to become international-level start, with marketable future in other countries, he should care what fans think.
2. It's a bit of a gray area, but Chavanel situation was very different in several aspects and you know it.


----------



## paredown

OldEndicottHiway said:


> This ^.
> 
> This is identical to the way I read it too.
> 
> I don't know about "classless", but it was most definitely reactionary. He lost his head.
> 
> I was hoping to see a bit more seasoned (and wiley), Patron/Statesman behavior out of the both of them, as the two top dogs. I'm not seeing it. I see two kids.
> 
> I still think the booing of Contador was reprehensible though, and not warranted.
> 
> Well, it'll be "fun" to watch the p*ssing match ensue.


Well that makes three of us--four if you can include Paul Sherwin too. Paul's point was apt as well-that Contador looked like he was beginning to panic, and grabbed at a questionable opportunity, because he was desperate.

What a show though--I was praying that Andy would not come unstuck on the descent.


----------



## barhopper

ph0enix said:


> I hate his interviews in English. He never says anything of substance because his command of the language is very poor. I much prefer the translated AC interviews.






I loved today's interview. It was in Spanish and no one bothered to interpret the answer to
the interviewers first question. LOL 

I think Contador wants to win this any way he can. I would rather win knowing I was better than the next guy. LOL


----------



## Haridic

LWP said:


> He saw it. I'm not getting into whether or not he should have attacked though. Tradition says no, sponsors say yes and 3rd and 4th were running away regardless so it's a tough call. I hate it for Andy, he was my pick to win before the race started and I hate to see him drop from the front due to a mechanical. Anger can destroy or fuel, we'll see what it does to Andy. Kinda funny watching AC on the podium touching his heart and shooting his pistols while you can clearly hear more booing than cheers in the background.


3rd and 4th are absolutely zero threat to the overall GC, they were over 2.30 minutes behind, Contador can make that time back up whenever he damn well pleased, Shleck on his own reduced the deficit to Conta*****, Sanchez and Menchov to just over 30 seconds. Big threat. Besides, he knew he malfunctioned for the next 26kms AND attacked for the finish as well, BS. Sign of a desperate man and i for one hope Contador flats just so Saxo Bank can bury him in a world of hurt.


----------



## fab4

I've been reading rumors that Lance and the Radio Shack boy are going to help Schleck win the tour. Any truth to this rumor?


----------



## Hawayyan

AC is going to be the biggest A$$HAT/JERK/WANKER/DOUCHE etc,etc...that has the tallent and ability to win more TDF's than anyone before, and maybe more GT's in general than anyone else, and people can't stand it. 

Other than this situation today that as we can see from the great many discussions on this thread alone is debatable as to right or wrong, and when he refused AS THE YELLOW JERSEY HOLDER, to drop back and to haul Armstrong up the hill, what has he done that people dislike him so much? Some are saying that basically every time he mounts a bike, he is despicable. What has he done, other than win?


----------



## bdx1366

55x11 said:


> ulti -
> 1. If AC wants to become international-level start, with marketable future in other countries, he should care what fans think.
> 2. It's a bit of a gray area, but Chavanel situation was very different in several aspects and you know it.


you are dreaming if you think a cyclist is marketable outside of europe. Other then lance who else is making money outside of Europe?

and how exactly was Chavanel 's situation different? more then one person took advantage of his situation. But I guess he is a nobody in your hierarchy.


----------



## eugkim

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Contador if he'd just man up and say that "it's a bike race" or something to that effect. His weak excuse that he didn't know doesn't fly; makes him look like a weasel, taking advantage of Shleck's misfortune, but claiming innocence for it. Enough guys around would agree that it's part of the game, so stop making excuses like a kid.

As for Contador's "mechanical" on the cobbles, don't know how anyone could have even known about it. He was following Vino, and nobody even suspected an issue until they saw him behind at the finish. Now, the argument that Shleck/Cancellara/Hushovd/Evans taking advantage of the Frank Shleck crash might be another story.


----------



## Fogdweller

I don't see why Tyler is seen as such a hero in this. They were all slowed after the takedown; Basso, Ullrich, Zubeldia. Then Tyler surges by them and gestures and somehow becomes a saint on the day. It's all people remember from the stage, not that they all had slowed before.



fornaca68 said:


> Yes. Watch 2:24 where Hamilton is directing the race leaders to slow down. Ullrich did slow down but he didn't say anything, he just kept looking around (although he was clearly soft-pedaling). www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaKR5iOCTts&feature=related
> 
> My point is that Contador needs to have taken a similar leadership role and told Menchov and SS to slow down.
> 
> "You know in the sport of cycling, there is always payback time. Don't ever burn bridges, don't ever make enemies." Paul Sherwen @ 3:32.


----------



## Haridic

Pablo said:


> Well, yeah. But my question is why is there this rule at all.


Because it's a poor show of sportsman like behaviour. Cycling has a million of these unwritten rules, to respect the tradition of the sport and to respect the tradition of the race. Attacking a yellow jersey when his chain slips off is absolutely classless. What kind of a message does that send to children at home?

Yeah, if your rival falls off his bike or has an accident, don't worry about helping him up and racing fair, no attack him and drop him as best you can. It's pathetic. A contador in form would have waited. An attack like this shows me his desperate. Don't use Sanchez/Menchov as an excuse, they are well and truly out of that GC.


----------



## Hawayyan

How the hell they gonna help Schleck, they can't help themselves


----------



## cyclejim

Salsa_Lover said:


> Conti talks about today's events


I think its great he had the humility and respect to post that video however he seems to be confused on the course of the events. He said "justo cuando yo atacado", or, "right when I attacked" Andy had his mechanical" The reality is Andy attacked, gapped AC for several seconds and THEN Andy had his mechanical or rider error or whatever else people would like to call it.


----------



## Mdeth1313

Pablo said:


> Well, yeah. But my question is why is there this rule at all.


Cycling pedigree.


----------



## jptaylorsg

fab4 said:


> I've been reading rumors that Lance and the Radio Shack boy are going to help Schleck win the tour. Any truth to this rumor?


Considering the job they've done for their GC hopefuls, I don't see where this, even if it were true, would put any fear into AC's heart.

Now, if he sees Andy talking to Jeff Gilooly, then he'll really have to worry.


----------



## ghost6

Contador is such a weasel.


----------



## atpjunkie

*AC should breakaway*

from AS on a mountain stage
when arriving NOT cross the finish. stop right before the line. look at his watch for 30 seconds and then ride across the line

only way he can salvage any of his reputation


----------



## Haridic

Salsa_Lover said:


> Conti talks about today's events


He had 26kms to rectify his mistake. 26kms. 
He seemed to be riding very, very quickly for 26kms for a man whose always believed in 'Fair Play'. Now, i believe he's going to be relying heavily on luck. A little bit of bad luck and we all know what Bjarne Riis' and his team is capable of doing.


----------



## cyclejim

eugkim said:


> I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Contador if he'd just man up and say that "it's a bike race" or something to that effect. His weak excuse that he didn't know doesn't fly; makes him look like a weasel, taking advantage of Shleck's misfortune, but claiming innocence for it. Enough guys around would agree that it's part of the game, so stop making excuses like a kid.
> 
> As for Contador's "mechanical" on the cobbles, don't know how anyone could have even known about it. He was following Vino, and nobody even suspected an issue until they saw him behind at the finish. Now, the argument that Shleck/Cancellara/Hushovd/Evans taking advantage of the Frank Shleck crash might be another story.


Theres a video, linked up further in the thread were he said exactly that. However his sequence of how the events played out seems to be a bit off.


----------



## nealrab

*Does anyone remember Cadel...*

After all these posts I'm shocked that no one has mentioned Cadel...He was left at the side of the road with an ill-timed flat and no support in the Vuelta last year. It cost him the win in all likelihood, and he whined about it...then he came back in the Worlds...and look at him now. He's a totally different rider...he just does whatever is necessary. He's killing himself in this Tour to stay in it. He's in 12th, not 38th, and he's not crying about his fractured arm. He'd have helped Ballan today if he could. Unlike one 7-time Tour champ who's been on a series of training rides for a week now...and won't lift a pedal to help Levi attain a podium spot.
Bottom line, it's a race...get on with it. Get back on your freaking bike and ride like you want it...bunch of pansies. If Frank could stay on his bike Andy would've had help there (don't know what that could've done for him, maybe saved 10 seconds). In the end, and MARK MY WORDS, Contador will beat Schleck in the ITT by 2:30 or more. Today means NOTHING. Schleck may not even get 2nd place. Tranquillo everyone.


----------



## gh1

Interesting debate but I dont think you can compare this to the past such as LA and Ullrich due to the fact that number 3 and 4th are going full gas so do you just let them go if they arent stopping? The LA stop was when they were pretty much alone and wayyy ahead on time. Also, I believe it was Beloki that went down next to LA and he never looked back as he rode away from him. Today was a weird moment for sure.


----------



## ghost6

Well it was good to hear all of the boos when Fingerbang took the yellow. Contador: you're a tool.


----------



## husonfirst

I was rooting for AC last year but not this year. That was a weasel move. Schleck was ticked! The peloton will remember this. Tomorrow's stage will be awesome as Schleck puts the hammer down.


----------



## shabbasuraj

cyclejim said:


> Really? Can you do it right after your chain drops while you are attacking on one of the most important stages of the tdf while you are in yellow and your adrenaline is pumping out of your chest? You are a real man.


Actually in the above situation, I can GUARANTEE I would have gotten my chain back on in 6 seconds, considering the stakes..... No question brother........ 6 seconds.


----------



## spade2you

ghost6 said:


> Contador is such a weasel.


Cuz giving the Tour to Menchov and Sanchez is a good idea?


----------



## Ventruck

*Looking at this whole argument right now:*

I do think there is questionable ethic to what happened, but both sides of this argument are too extreme: AC is not a ****(head), and the dismissal about unwritten rule regarding waiting for the yellow jersey is not a sissy issue. 

AC's read on Sanchez and Menchov is similar to what I'd be thinking. I don't think AC surely thought they were attacking, but everyone was moving past Schleck fast, who knows how soon Schleck would fix his mechanical (or if it could be fixed), and so AC had to think fast, deciding between taking a lead he could freely decide (not saying he will) to lose in another stage, or be the nice guy when there's two other guys just 2 minutes down on the GC getting away? 

AC was looking back as some people here noticed. No one with him let up, really, and why take the risk to see if they actually would? Ultimately, he never upped the pace (as posters have said as will) and just clung on to others' wheels.

This is ****ing 8 seconds. You could argue that it's value in deciding the winner in the end was just as much as the 21 (or was it 31) Schleck had on him. I'd be laughing at everyone who struggles to find a way to insult Contador if (if) he ultimately out-paces Andy outside of the TT. What, he's a jerk for still being a better rider (if he does turn out faster)?

What's with the insinuations that AC's not going so hot and is afraid of Schleck? The minute a winner doesn't look stupid-dominant apparently equates to him being weak to some people. This is a lame, somewhat of an ad-hominem attack, made by the people riding on Schleck's **** against his number one threat. We really have no sure indication that AC's form is lesser.

I don't get why people defending AS need to go and call out the waiting for the yellow jersey etiquette as some needless, detrimental element to the Tour. Quite frankly, I don't think this was the case for Contador to challenge. As I said above, I'm confident that he did contemplate his options, was unsure of what to make of everything aside from AS (whole world doesn't revolve around him...), and went for what he hoped was the fairest compromise. It's clear in a recent vid that he wasn't out to take advantage of the moment solely to top Schleck or disrespect the etiquette. 

AS himself is mad. He's not God to say if you should or shouldn't as well, but even then, I think many fanboys are extrapolating from the "revenge" comment too much. Someone point me to a vid or interview with AS exhibiting DIRECT dismay towards Contador. From what I saw he surely said **** happens, and is generally frustrated/dissapointed (not specifically at AC). When addressing the comparisons to Chavanel and now, he did say it was different. How was it different? Apparently other posters are quick to jump to conclusions about that. Maybe he was implying it different in regards to AC's behavior, or maybe it was different in the sense it was a more tense situation, and that it was a mechanical as opposed to a huge crash.

So in short: I don't think AC was being a ****, and I don't think AS is as bitter as his own fanboys. Yes, this is the TdF forum for open opinions, but some people are making out today as if it were an episode of late-season Real World.


----------



## shabbasuraj

Fellas.. watching the vid, I am sure that ANDY CHUMP faked a mechanical, cause, he was scared, of the pressure.... faked a bike issue so he can catch his breath, as he was in the red zone. 


that is the story.


----------



## spade2you

Ventruck said:


> So in short: I don't think AC was being a ****, and I don't think AS is as bitter as his own fanboys. Yes, this is the TdF forum for open opinions, but some people are making out today as if it were an episode of late-season Real World.


+1. Too much fanboy and anti-fanboy crap going on. Contador isn't a bad guy like The Cannibal in American Flyers. 

I don't know what's noble about handing the Tour to Sanchez and Menchov, but it's simply not good tactics and racing. Maybe if they also waited, sure.


----------



## aptivaboy

I would feel differently about Contador if he didn't push the attack so hard himself right at the moment that he visibly saw his greatest rival mechanical out. If the others attacked and he just went with them, than he would be okay in my book since he wouldn't be pushing the issue himself. Or, if he slowed for even a few moments and when Schleck didn't come up promptly then he could have taken off. It seemed like there was probably time for the latter. However, by just attacking so hard there, he took advantage of another rider's misfortune. Where has the courtesy that Ulrich and Armstrong had for each other gone? 

I can tell you this, he'll not get any consideration from the other riders after this. If Contador *EVER* has a mechanical himself, no one else will ever wait for him.


----------



## cyclejim

shabbasuraj said:


> Actually in the above situation, I can GUARANTEE I would have gotten my chain back on in 6 seconds, considering the stakes..... No question brother........ 6 seconds.


You cant guarantee anything until you are in that situation yourself my friend.


----------



## husonfirst

shabbasuraj said:


> Actually in the above situation, I can GUARANTEE I would have gotten my chain back on in 6 seconds, considering the stakes..... No question brother........ 6 seconds.



Whatever. Schleck was pumped and you could see his legs quivering as he moved to the right side of his bike in a frantic attempt to get the chain back on.


----------



## spade2you

aptivaboy said:


> If Contador *EVER* has a mechanical himself, no one else will ever wait for him.


Yes, they didn't wait for him on stage 3.


----------



## Hawayyan

How do you know that the other riders even care? Nobody has come out and condemned his action, at the most, they've said it was questionable. I think the only ones that care either way, are us, and Schleck.


----------



## nOOky

I'm an Andy fan, but that's bike racing. If he's better he'll catch up tomorrow, wish him well.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

atpjunkie said:


> *from AS on a mountain stage
> when arriving NOT cross the finish. stop right before the line. look at his watch for 30 seconds and then ride across the line*
> 
> only way he can salvage any of his reputation



You just made me glad not sad that I came back in here tonight. I LOL'd at the visual. Now _that_ would be a hilarious little snarky move I could dig.


----------



## ghost6

spade2you said:


> Cuz giving the Tour to Menchov and Sanchez is a good idea?


So is that the only perspective allowed?


----------



## cyclejim

AndyP. said:


> +1 My 11 year old son learned how to put on a chain yesterday and it took him about 10 seconds. This was not really a mechanical, Andy should have fixed his chain faster, Menchov, Sanchez, and Contador were tempo riding, and Schreck lost the race on the descent. I'm not glad the jersey changed hands this way, but people are reading too much into this (check out the 7 billion posts over on that happy place called Cycling News.com). Who knows what each rider saw and was thinking? All this sinister "stuff" is silly. Andy


Once again, its one thing to put your chain on while you are in the garage or sitting on the side of your local MUT. 

The question is, how can you say how fast you could do it right after a heavy effort during one of the most important stages of the tdf while you are in yellow and your adrenaline is pumping out of your chest? These are situation where you cant say how well or fast you would react until you live it yourself. You guys are wayyyy to fast to judge how long it took methinks!


----------



## ilmaestro

My thoughts:

I love Andy, but stuff happens in racing.

Nevertheless, Contador clearly lied in his interview and video response. Either you care about fair play or you care about winning. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## RRRoubaix

I could never quite put my finger on why I disliked C***tidore- I always thought it was the near-oppressive "finger-bang" crap (logos? really? Ugh).
Today I realized what it was- he's just a pr1ck.
I must say- I QUITE enjoyed hearing the boos when C***tidore put on the yellow jersey for the first time.
MAN, I wish Frank was still there -two Schlecks could rip AC apart. (Not too sure just one can- but I'm sure as hell going to pull for him!)


----------



## husonfirst

Hawayyan said:


> How do you know that the other riders even care? Nobody has come out and condemned his action, at the most, they've said it was questionable. I think the only ones that care either way, are us, and Schleck.


They care because they ride by a code. They care because they respect the yellow.


----------



## ghost6

ilmaestro said:


> Nevertheless, Contador clearly lied in his interview and video response. Either you care about fair play or you care about winning. You can't have your cake and eat it too.



Exactly, which is why Contador is and always will be a total tool.


----------



## ghost6

Regardless of who you side with, Contador is still a little weasel.


----------



## ghost6

MaddSkillz said:


> They scream of anti-Contador bias and are championed by those that think double rainbows are so intense and view the world with with rose-colored jawbones.
> 
> I had to inject some reality.


Reality: Contador is a tool, a weasel, and one tacky SOB.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

I wonder why all the hate for AC but not Menchov and Sanchez?


----------



## jd3

HIMEHEEM said:


> They all should have stopped. That would have been a lovely spot for a picnic.


They did that yesterday.


----------



## Hawayyan

If I side with him, why would he be a weasel? He didn't do anything to me.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

I wonder why all the hate for AC but not Menchov and Sanchez?


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

I wonder why all the hate for AC but not Menchov and Sanchez?


----------



## wiz525

nealrab said:


> Bottom line, it's a race...get on with it. Get back on your freaking bike and ride like you want it...bunch of pansies.


nice. Calling these guys at this stage in the tour a bunch of pansies! Ha! This thread has it all!!


----------



## Hawayyan

Then why have they not said anything? Ryder H basically said, shti happens, get on with it, nobodys waiting. Doesn't seem like he really cares, and he rides by "the code" doesn't he?


----------



## JohnHenry

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I wonder why all the hate for AC but not Menchov and Sanchez?


last year's tour?


----------



## louise

albert owen said:


> Cavendish is at the bottom of this IMO. This spate of poor behaviour all started when he failed to wait for Tyler in that sprint a couple of days ago. He should be DQed!
> 
> Message to the whole Peleton:
> *Racing against anyone* *will henceforth be seen as Un-Gentlemanly Conduct and dealt with severely*.



There, I fixed it.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

So we hate AC because AC beat LA?


----------



## Hawayyan

JohnHenry said:


> last year's tour?


I think this is it. What else has he done wrong than evidently the hated victory salute, last years tour win, and being on the cusp of his 5th GT win?

Don't understand the hatred.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

I wonder why all the hate for AC but not Menchov and Sanchez?


----------



## zoikz

I just don't like that guy. Contador totally knew what he was doing, he was getting his arse handed to him by Andy with a monster acceleration he couldn't match, the chain dropped and Contador saw it and attacked. 
Andy showed what he can do with some fire in his belly, He may even rip the time trial. When Andy said "I wouldn't race like that" he was telling the truth.
This is going to be one of the great rivalries in cycling. I know who I'll be rooting for.


----------



## yater

shabbasuraj said:


> Fellas.. watching the vid, I am sure that ANDY CHUMP faked a mechanical, cause, he was scared, of the pressure.... faked a bike issue so he can catch his breath, as he was in the red zone.
> 
> 
> that is the story.


Is there an ignore feature on this site?? I'd like to ditch the village idiot.

edit: I found it....



> This message is hidden because shabbasuraj is on your ignore list.


----------



## jd3

No. we hate AC because the only English he knows is "in this moment".


----------



## 55x11

Hawayyan said:


> Then why have they not said anything? Ryder H basically said, shti happens, get on with it, nobodys waiting. Doesn't seem like he really cares, and he rides by "the code" doesn't he?


Schleck's stomach is filled with anger, and Ryder H will be getting it next for his interview, right after he is done with Contador, Menchov and Sanchez. Then Andy will stop his bike, turn around and ask: "Anyone else has an opinion? Well - do ya, punks?!"


----------



## Hawayyan

*This from Sammy Sanchez via Cyclingnews...*

There is a lot of talk about an incident in the race [Schleck's mechanical]; I believe that we shouldn't focus on something that is natural in cycling - tomorrow it could happen to me or anyone else...

In the race, I didn't know if Andy had a problem or not. He started very strong, Contador went after him, then Menchov moved... From the TV it sure looks great, but in the race, at 200 beats a minute, with thousands of screaming fans on the road... The instinct is telling you to go with the big move and mark the man.


----------



## ilmaestro

jd3 said:


> No. we hate AC because the only English he knows is "in this moment".


LOL - very true


----------



## 55x11

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I wonder why all the hate for AC but not Menchov and Sanchez?


Partially at least, it's because AC benefited the most from the incident.
Sanchez did a fair amount of driving the group uphill, don't recall Menchov at the front much.


----------



## terry b

*El Pistolero apologizes on Youtube. Sort of.*


----------



## penn_rider

It is simple,, AC and others should have slowed in wait,,, its fair and in accordance of recent tour history. It is also respectable,,, then again I don't expect AC to be respectable... Sucks bad for AS to be up against such a d'bag during the rest of his cycling career. I am sure there will be many moments like this in the future....


----------



## shabbasuraj

MENCHY!!!!!!!!!! Now that is the name of a cat that will be surely FIRING ON ALL CYLINDERS on both sides/days of the coming TOURMALET. I overheard him and GESINK at the hotel and at the bus.... planning a MAJOR move tomorrow..









(allegedly)...


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

Sanchez and Menchov both gained time on Andy and stand to take second if they can hang on for the last of the mountains.

Standing Rider Rider number bib Team Time Gaps
1. CONTADOR Alberto 1 ASTANA 72h 50' 42" 
2. SCHLECK Andy 11 TEAM SAXO BANK 72h 50' 50" + 00' 08"
3. SANCHEZ Samuel 181 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 72h 52' 42" + 02' 00"
4. MENCHOV Denis 191 RABOBANK 72h 52' 55" + 02' 13"


----------



## burk

I believe that Andy's chain loss was not caused by a "mechanical failure".
Andy's bike performed flawlessly both before and after his chain loss and there was no need to make any equipment repair to correct the problem. The cause of the failure was more likely due to human error occurring in the heat of battle. Human mistakes are a legitimate part of the equation that decides the winner and should be taken full advantage of by all competitors.


----------



## Ventruck

What can I say? his voice is inherently apologetic sounding. You can't say "no" to that face and voice.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

+15697536452.56245

Andy needs to learn how to shift under a full effort attack.


----------



## oily666

*﻿Be nice to people on your way up because you meet them on your way down. -- Jimmy Durante*


----------



## shabbasuraj

I heard that SAXO has just put an EMERGENCY order with 'next day delivery' on a whole bunch of miscellaneous drivetrain parts. (re: chain keepers, of all makes and sizes).


But ya back to AS, this tour was never meant to be his considering the length of the final ITT.

Guys.. seriously, AS was never going to be on the podium. This man will loose about 2 minutes or likely more in 52 km in an ITT. Andy is gonna be simply exposed all by himself in the ITT. MENCHY and others are gonna ride right past the poor climber....

This GT is not suited for a pure climber like AS, where EVERY discipline matters.


----------



## shabbasuraj

husonfirst said:


> Whatever. Schleck was pumped and you could see his legs quivering as he moved to the right side of his bike in a frantic attempt to get the chain back on.



Ya I hear ya.. 

So pumped it took him 20 seconds to figure out what was wrong with his bike, with some time thrown in to raise his head, look around, wonder what was happening... then back to the bike, then this.. then that.. then this.. then ..... later....


----------



## ilmaestro

Maximus_XXIV said:


> +15697536452.56245
> 
> Andy needs to learn how to shift under a full effort attack.


And after that, perhaps we can talk about how his chain appears to have jumped while he was not shifting.


----------



## redlizard

If either of you two above (not you ilmaestro) had seen the video, especially the close-up in slow motion, you would see that as he bounced over whatever it was he hit, his derailleur slacked up and his chain took a flier. He wasn't shifting, the road apple caused it. He was unlucky and I'd say it falls into the category of a mechanical.

But don't let clear video stand in the way of your self righteousness....


----------



## penn_rider

Love that lead in!

Eh,,, what? PR,, nothing more...Para- "Sorry,, but I would do it again" this is what I got,, oh and "still love me".....

Meh,, he stopped the pack for them,,, lolz ( Ha! LA,, and I am 45)


----------



## JimT

That was pretty cool of him, I guess he didn't have to do that but I hope Andy drops him like a bad habit!!!


----------



## penn_rider

Look,, it was a bad move for all those,, AC just has the target of everybody's frustration at the moment... each of those riders benefited from that lame **s move..


----------



## M-theory

zoikz said:


> This is going to be one of the great rivalries in cycling. I know who I'll be rooting for.


Yup, I'll be rooting for AC. I like a guy who's flawed. And at least he had the decency to make a video apologizing for what happened afterward. I have yet to hear an apology from AS regarding his unwarranted anger.  

Cancellara (Saxobank) slowed the entire peloton on stage 1 so AS could catch up. Then on stage 3, after Frank Schleck crashes and breaks apart the peloton and slows everyone else down, Cancellara decides to attack full blast and give Andy a lead. That seems totally hypocritical to me. It was Frank Schleck who crashed and Andy gained time from that. It seemed AS was willing to do whatever it took to gain some time on AC at that stage in the race. Totally unsportsmanlike, if you ask me.

AC knew he lost that time unfairly. And while he knew attacking Andy today was probably a bit unfair, gaining back the time he lost on stage 3 seemed justifiable. How do I know this...because if you watch the entire apology video, AC mentions how he needlessly lost time on stage 3. So clearly, he was still a bit upset about that.


----------



## yurl

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I wonder why all the hate for AC but not Menchov and Sanchez?


I'm wondering that too. from what I saw, Sanchez did most of the work followed by Menchov. Surely they're just as guilty if not more. They did gain time on AS to the point where its possible for either of them to push him out of second.


----------



## gamara

I think that JB is trying to be diplomatic. He used the standard response, "its racing." As for Menchov & Sami, they were only following AC's attack. They're not going to risk losing time by waiting around especially if Contador is attacking. So they were only protecting their positions when they followed.


----------



## Hawayyan

This from Sanchez on Cyclingnews (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/reactions-from-the-tours-15th-stage):

There is a lot of talk about an incident in the race [Schleck's mechanical]; I believe that we shouldn't focus on something that is natural in cycling - tomorrow it could happen to me or anyone else...

In the race, I didn't know if Andy had a problem or not. He started very strong, Contador went after him, then Menchov moved... From the TV it sure looks great, but in the race, at 200 beats a minute, with thousands of screaming fans on the road... The instinct is telling you to go with the big move and mark the man


----------



## Beethoven

It isn't a question of hate or love. I think if you look at the tape you see that AC clearly saw that AS had a mechanical problem, and then attacked. I think that was his gut reaction, and he now is kind of sorry to have done it (his facebook comments). AC is not the, um, most reflective person in the peloton.
I'm pretty sure AS would not have reacted in the same way, however.


----------



## Hawayyan

How are you so sure? AS needs to make up a metric okole load of time before the ITT, and his excuse could be, he wasn't wearing the yellow jersey. I think lots of the complainers here would be much more accepting of that scenario, than the current one.


----------



## Fltplan

cyclejim said:


> Because its an unwritten rule in a gentlemans sport, you know as well as I do you wont find the rule anywhere.
> 
> Its a judgement call by the riders, I personally think it was a cheap move but ultimately AC will be judged by his peers and fans and will live by his decision.
> 
> Paybacks are a ***** though.



Completely agree on this one. Everyone has their opinion and the tide will shift (no pun intended) one way or the other. From my view, not a lot of people like AC to begin with, this certainly didn't help his cause IMO. I'm not sure why people don't like him either. Subconcious battle with LA or something.


----------



## Italophile

This is so much ado about very, very little. No, I have not read the prior 308 posts, and I don't have to. _Yadda-yadda, Contador is a dick, yadda-yadda-yadda..._

Let me ask, fully aware that others probably already have:

Did Emily Post Schleck wait for the Maillot Jaune when Chavanel flatted two times [or three by some accounts] on the cobbles? Did he wait for Lance when he flatted on the cobbles? Did he wait for Contador when he was run into on the cobbles, breaking a spoke and forcing him to drag a bent wheel for 20 km?

No, no, and no.

After the initial attack passed him by when he dumped his chain, Schleck stopped on the road for over 20 seconds, but Contador, Menchov, and Sanchez only had 13 or 14 seconds advantage at the summit. Was that because Andy Schleck is Superman, or was that because there was no real attack in front of him? Did the three leave banana peels on the road behind their descent, or did Schleck merely get beaten downhill by better riders?

Yeah, yeah: Lance waited ...once. And Jan waited ...after he was pretty much lassoed by Tyler Hamilton. Whoopee. How many times did Hinault wait for unlucky opponents? Indurain? Merckx? Please cite examples if you know of any.

It's all very nice to be nice, but this is for real, and Contador did nothing wrong.


----------



## jorgemonkey

Lets face it, his chain didn't seize up, didn't pop off due to a mistake on Andys part. Chuck Norris just sneezed at that moment and that did him in.


----------



## Italophile

jd3 said:


> No. we hate AC because the only English he knows is "in this moment".


Never been to Spain, eh? Everybody there says that.


----------



## Italophile

Beethoven said:


> ...I think if you look at the tape you see that AC clearly saw that AS had a mechanical problem, and then attacked. I think that was his gut reaction, and he now is kind of sorry to have done it (his facebook comments). AC is not the, um, most reflective person in the peloton.
> I'm pretty sure AS would not have reacted in the same way, however.


I have looked, more than once. Contador was already coming hard when it happened. He saw Schleck slow to a crawl, but was gone before Andy stopped. As far as Contador could tell, Andy could have gotten the chain back on with the derailleur, and would have been fine, but by the time word got to him that Andy had gotten off to rehook the chain, Andy was riding again.

The 20+ seconds that Schleck was stopped led to only a 13 second gap at the summit. If Contador, Menchov, and Sanchez were really attacking, they would have had much more than that. There really was no hard attack at all. Most of Andy's losses came on the descent, and nobody would claim that his antagonists should have to defer to him once he is back in the race, can they? That would be silly.


----------



## DrRoebuck

shabbasuraj said:


> Actually in the above situation, I can GUARANTEE I would have gotten my chain back on in 6 seconds, considering the stakes..... No question brother........ 6 seconds.


Yeah, but how far can you piss?

This made me lol.


----------



## Jesse D Smith

bdx1366 said:


> the funny thing about your posts is that your signature tends to contradict your arguments,
> or is that just you trying to be artsy be quoting someone


I'll try to explain the meaning of the signature, to me, at least. 
Through experience, I've found that I can get some form of satisfaction before, during and after a ride. Before, I get satisfaction by getting up early, being prepared, and knowing I'm about to do something that's healthy.
During a ride, I may or may not get the satisfaction that comes from a smooth, effortless pedal stroke, finding the motivation to power up a hill, descending with confidence, finding a new road on a new route, etc. I might get satisfaction from just soft pedaling, turning off the aggression and moving through the air. During the ride, I may experience a nice peaceful moment when I notice the good weather, nice scenery, or comradely from riding with a new person. I don't start out the ride intending to feel good at mile 7, or make an concerted effort to see something new at precisely 1:07 p.m. 
After the ride, I get a different sense of satisfaction. The ride is over. The actual experience, scenery, effort, motion, etc. are no longer present. But the endorphins are still working, I have the memories. I just might have learned something new, and it might relate directly to riding, or it might be something I can apply outside of cycling. It happens much more often than not, frequently enough so that count on cycling as a reliable source for satisfaction. And since it comes on long or short rides, hard or easy efforts, I can count on it as a form of satisfaction thirty years from now.

If I wanted to be artsy, I'd try to come up with a quote that better expresses the experience. But I found the author put it better than I could, and in a form much shorter than this entire post, it makes for a more convenient signature.

I'm not how my signature relates to the current topic.


----------



## scarecrow

All true italophile. AC did nothing technically wrong, but was it the most honorable thing to do? AC felt it was questionable enough to post an apology on Youtube. Champions are defined by moments like that. Vino slowed up. AC goes by both Vino (his teammate) and AS. Menchov and Sanchez chase AC. AC forces the pace all the way to the finish and even tries to win the sprint for 4th place. The "best" rider in the sport did not exhibit as much class in the heat of the moment and his disgraced teammate.


----------



## idon'tknow

Pablo said:


> Can someone 'splaim me the logic why you can't attack when there's a mechanical in road racing? I think it's ok to do so in an mtb race where a mechanical is much more likely. Is this an all out race or a who has more cadio-a-thon?


Road racing tries to neutralize the bike factor more than Mtb racing. In mtb racing there's no bike weight limit, so if you take a risk with crazy light parts at the expense of reliability to try to gain an advantage, which results in a mechanical, you gambled and lost. Road racing wants to see who is the better cycle athlete, not who can choose the better machine (hence the bike weight limit). So, you wouldn't want to win because someone had less of a machine at the expense of not knowing if they're better at riding a bike.

Contador gained time in the race because his rival had a mechanical issue, not because he was a stronger cyclist. If he wins the tour by a narrow margin it could be argued that Andy was a better cyclist, and therefor Contador doesn't deserve to be the tour champ, to the detriment of the contest.


----------



## Beethoven

I think you make the best possible case for AC (although the fact that Schleck lost time on the descent is immaterial to question whether AC should have attacked). Still on Keski's tape it is pretty evident to me that AC attacked the mechanical (and sees it, as he goes around AS).
In any case, my point was to say that this is not a reason to _hate_ AC -- but I think it's legitimate to point out that he had alternative options.


----------



## RRRoubaix

atpjunkie said:


> from AS on a mountain stage
> when arriving NOT cross the finish. stop right before the line. look at his watch for 30 seconds and then ride across the line
> 
> only way he can salvage any of his reputation


I'm with ya, ATP!
That's about the only way I could ever respect him again.


----------



## Ventruck

He didn't "side" with Contador, he just said his actions were justified. As far as I know, AC doesn't have his own side. He never had it out for Schleck this stage, just acted upon instinct as the other GC contenders, Sanchez and Menchov, were capable of eating a lot of time depending on how long Schleck would take to do the fix - which no one knew at the time.


----------



## il sogno

PJay said:


> shifting problem. fair game.


Agree. Knowing how to shift your derailleur properly is part and parcel of riding a bike/racing.


----------



## karatemom

I totally agree with Italophile. It was an incredibly crappy time to have a mechanical, that's all. I don't think AC did anything wrong, nor do I think he is evil incarnate, as some people seem to think. Emotions are high, it's hard to take in what exactly is going on when your heart rate is going at 190 BPM. I think afterwards, when AC thought about it, he questioned himself, hence his apology.


----------



## moabbiker

Contador had no choice but to continue on. Menchov and Sammy are serious threats. Menchov himself is a superb time trialist who will be able to give Bert a run for his money on the final TT. Allowing these two riders to blow past while you await the yellow jersey means you both will lose. 

Also, place appropriate blame on team tactics. Saxobank played the wrong strategy by annihilating their own team, and saving Fabian's energy for the time trial (very clear if you saw how early he dropped back), when he could have suffered quite a bit to maintain tempo. Additionally, seriously put some questions into Saxobanks team mechanics!


----------



## karatemom

Furthermore, everytime I've dropped my chain, it's been my own damn fault. I don't know--are there incidents where the chain just falls off of it's own accord?


----------



## moabbiker

Saxobank is the one to blame here! They killed their own team one by one, and saved Fabian's energy for the TT so he never took his turn maintaining tempo so the real climbers could last longer. Just watch how early he drops off the final climb, he's going backwards with the sprinters. Calculated move, and Fabian should be able to take the TT stage but now he will pay the bitter price.


----------



## cyclejim

karatemom said:


> Furthermore, everytime I've dropped my chain, it's been my own damn fault. I don't know--are there incidents where the chain just falls off of it's own accord?


Yes, like when, your bike is you know, not set up properly.


----------



## cyclejim

il sogno said:


> Agree. Knowing how to shift your derailleur properly is part and parcel of riding a bike/racing.


So then somehow in the thousands of kilometers Schleck has ridden he has not learned how to shift properly? Do you seriously believe what you are saying?


----------



## DrRoebuck

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I wonder why all the hate for AC but not Menchov and Sanchez?


Which of the three took the yellow jersey?

Which of the three was in a heated battle for 1st place with Schleck?

Which of the three has a past of not quite respecting Tour traditions?

FWIW, I supported him last year, and I supported his catch of Vino a few stages ago, but I don't like what he did today.


----------



## moabbiker

Blame the real source here: Saxobank strategy that went haywire. They decided to save Fabian on this stage so his energy will be preserved for the TT. Just watch how early he goes backwards, the dude is capable of a heck of a lot more on the inclines if he's given the order. That meant he couldn't lead tempo, allowing the other Saxo riders to save their strength and last longer. Fact is, if Fabian was ordered to drive tempo till his legs burst, Andy would've had a teammate with him, and that means having a bike donated by your team member when you go down. Simple as that.


----------



## den bakker

cyclejim said:


> Yes, like when, your bike is you know, not set up properly.


how is that not the fault of the rider? It's his responsibility.


----------



## cyclejim

den bakker said:


> how is that not the fault of the rider? It's his responsibility.


I suppose, but chain drop can happen due to a problem that isn't immediately apparent and happens intermittantly.


----------



## il sogno

cyclejim said:


> So then somehow in the thousands of kilometers Schleck has ridden he has not learned how to shift properly? Do you seriously believe what you are saying?


There's a lot of gray area in all this, but didn't Saxo just recently switch over to SRAM?


----------



## DrRoebuck

il sogno said:


> There's a lot of gray area in all this, but didn't Saxo just recently switch over to SRAM?


What'd I tell you about SRAM?

Oh, snap!

(Literally.)


----------



## cyclejim

il sogno said:


> There's a lot of gray area in all this, but didn't Saxo just recently switch over to SRAM?


I think so, not good publicity for them im guessing.. even if it was his fault.


----------



## il sogno

Perico said:


> Two more things:
> 
> I literally just watched the coverage and rewound and did not see any of these long pushes goloso claims occurred.
> 
> Interesting that on Versus AC was doing interviews in English with minimal translation and his responses all in English...until today. Kind of reminds me of Sammy Sosa in front of Congress.


I think he had the translator today because he knew this was a controversial day. He wanted to make sure he understood the questions and that his answers would not be misunderstood because of his broken english.


----------



## il sogno

Bocephus Jones II said:


> sounds like he knows he screwed up and is saying sorry...the part about Andy attacking on the cobbles is irrelevant as he wasn't in yellow then.


No. But Chavanel was.


----------



## bismo37

AC, as the previous Tour winner and current tour padron, should have taken the authority and intiative to hold back Menchov & Sanchez until Schleck regrouped with them. 

Instead AC continued his counterattack despite passing Schleck at a standstill and despitr Vino slowing to see what was wrong with AS. Even Vino slowed down for AS. AC has already proven his impulsive immaturity as a racer. AC doesn't have the class to wear the Maillot Jaune. I hope the crowd's jeers echo in his mind tonight.

Were this a crit, a single day race or a TT, there would have been no reason to wait for Schleck, but this is the Tour and there is a code of honor that transcends the expected sportmanship at run-of-the-mill one-day races. 

I hope Andy sleeps well and rips Contador's legs off in the stages to come.


----------



## il sogno

DrRoebuck said:


> What'd I tell you about SRAM?
> 
> Oh, snap!
> 
> (Literally.)


I cling onto to every word I hear on our rides, then regurgitate them later. My stomach is full of DrRoebuck-isms!


----------



## DrRoebuck

il sogno said:


> No. But Chavanel was.


But he wasn't in the lead group when he started having problems. I don't think. I can't remember.

Besides, I think on a stage going over cobbles, where people are having mechanicals left and right, it would get a little silly if everyone kept waiting up.




il sogno said:


> I cling onto to every word I hear on our rides, then regurgitate them later. My stomach is full of DrRoebuck-isms!


I'm now retiring. Honestly ... it can only go downhill from here.


----------



## shabbasuraj

DrRoebuck said:


> Yeah, but how far can you piss?
> 
> This made me lol.


Lmao. At least 38 seconds far.


----------



## bismo37

Len J said:


> As to Menchov & Sanchez...if you watch, contador is ahead of them and attacking, not following. If he truly was a Patron', he could have held them both up until ANDY caught on.
> 
> Len


Exactly. :thumbsup:


----------



## makeitso

I'm sorry but the whole 'it's racing' mantra or similar is ridiculous. Might as well have one of your guys cross wheels with the yellow jersey and put him down and take your 'chance to attack.' Because it's racing... 

Also, this respect pertains only to the yellow jersey and if they're in the front side of the peloton. I'm amazed that the amount of people who are trying to apply this to Chavanel or AC on the cobbles or Armstrong when he lost his chance @ the GC. You can keep going at whatever pace but just don't attack. It's not too hard to understand. Simple fact is that AC witnessed AS issue, blew by him when he saw AS was at a near stop and then attacked even as Vino was waiting for AS. Then proceeded to nail it on the descent with Sanchez. You rarely saw Menchov in front on the descent (not that he's a good descender) possibly since he knew he couldn't let Sanchez go but at the same time respect for the jersey. 

I hope this bites Contador in the butt.


----------



## Jesse D Smith

Pablo said:


> Can someone 'splaim me the logic why you can't attack when there's a mechanical in road racing? I think it's ok to do so in an mtb race where a mechanical is much more likely. Is this an all out race or a who has more cadio-a-thon?


Cyclists and fans of the sport have a special appreciation for the sacrifices the athletes make to take part in the sport at its highest level. We like to think this sets the sport apart from others. There's no greater opportunity to for a pro to display these sacrifices than in the Tour. 
With this as a backdrop, true sportsmen want to win on a level playing field.
True, they will seek to maximize their own personal performances with the best equipment and teammates, but the when possible, a true champion seeks to create and maintain conditions where it's a fair fight. 
Thus, the tradition of the "regroup".


----------



## savechief

I'm sick of these unwritten, BS sportsmanship rules that exist in sports like cycling and baseball. This is a competition, bottom line. I don't like Contador, but I have no problem with what he did. Imagine in an F1 race if the whole field waited for somebody that blew a tire because of debris on the track. Come on.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

Haridic said:


> 3rd and 4th are absolutely zero threat to the overall GC, they were over 2.30 minutes behind, Contador can make that time back up whenever he damn well pleased, Shleck on his own reduced the deficit to Conta*****, Sanchez and Menchov to just over 30 seconds. Big threat. Besides, he knew he malfunctioned for the next 26kms AND attacked for the finish as well, BS. Sign of a desperate man and i for one hope Contador flats just so Saxo Bank can bury him in a world of hurt.


Basso was many more minutes behind at the Giro at some point and ended winning it.

and repeat for the last time because this is getting tiring.

*Andy and Cancellara took advantage of the mechanicals of Chavanel when he was in Yellow to take the jersey back, hence Andy has also shown no class or respect of the traditons by attacking and pushing at the end to put time on the yellow jersey in mechanical detresse.

In that same stage Andy took 30 seconds over Contador that had a mechanical ( broken spoke ) and this was the lead he had on him to take the yellow later on.

Yesterday AC did the same with Andy. 

So simply they are now even*


----------



## savechief

wipeout said:


> It's not if you win or lose, it's HOW you win or lose.


That's what the loser always says. Sorry, I'd rather be the winner. No (real) rules were broken in that stage.


----------



## rhgastur

I do not like Contador…but at the beginning of this tour Andi did something very similar with LA and Contador…he didn’t wait after a crash…and I remember a lot punctures at tour CRs in the past…I think that people is talking too much about something that happens quite often…


----------



## ultimobici

55x11 said:


> ulti -
> 1. If AC wants to become international-level start, with marketable future in other countries, he should care what fans think.


In the main cyclists are only bankable in their home countries. It's rare to see any of them promoting non-cycling products anywhere but home. 


> 2. It's a bit of a gray area, but Chavanel situation was very different in several aspects and you know it.


How so? He punctured 14km out as Cancellara & Schleck were trying to distance Contador & Armstrong. If the rider holding the Maillot Jaune is not a conventional threat, does that void the "don't attack when the jersey has a puncture" rule? Shouldn't any rider in the Maillot Jaune be afforded the same courtesy or is it only?


----------



## gs15step

Shimano must be loving this.


----------



## mitong

AMEN well said


Italophile said:


> This is so much ado about very, very little. No, I have not read the prior 308 posts, and I don't have to. _Yadda-yadda, Contador is a dick, yadda-yadda-yadda..._
> 
> Let me ask, fully aware that others probably already have:
> 
> Did Emily Post Schleck wait for the Maillot Jaune when Chavanel flatted two times [or three by some accounts] on the cobbles? Did he wait for Lance when he flatted on the cobbles? Did he wait for Contador when he was run into on the cobbles, breaking a spoke and forcing him to drag a bent wheel for 20 km?
> 
> No, no, and no.
> 
> After the initial attack passed him by when he dumped his chain, Schleck stopped on the road for over 20 seconds, but Contador, Menchov, and Sanchez only had 13 or 14 seconds advantage at the summit. Was that because Andy Schleck is Superman, or was that because there was no real attack in front of him? Did the three leave banana peels on the road behind their descent, or did Schleck merely get beaten downhill by better riders?
> 
> Yeah, yeah: Lance waited ...once. And Jan waited ...after he was pretty much lassoed by Tyler Hamilton. Whoopee. How many times did Hinault wait for unlucky opponents? Indurain? Merckx? Please cite examples if you know of any.
> 
> It's all very nice to be nice, but this is for real, and Contador did nothing wrong.


----------



## harlond

I don't understand why people keep pointing out that Vino slowed when Schleck slowed. Vino is working for Contador and marked Schleck for Contador, so of course he slowed up when Schleck slowed up. Vino also slowed after he caught Schleck on the descent, and for the same reason as before--Vino is working for Contador. Vino waiting for Schleck doesn't mean anything about whether Contador broke the unwritten rule.


----------



## MattSoutherden

M-theory said:


> Cancellara (Saxobank) slowed the entire peloton on stage 1 so AS could catch up. Then on stage 3, after Frank Schleck crashes and breaks apart the peloton and slows everyone else down, Cancellara decides to attack full blast and give Andy a lead. That seems totally hypocritical to me. It was Frank Schleck who crashed and Andy gained time from that. It seemed AS was willing to do whatever it took to gain some time on AC at that stage in the race.


At least someone appears to have watched the whole race.

Anyway, it's nice that Andy can get back into the whiter-than-white jersey today. Maybe Bell can give him a helmet with a little halo on it, too.


----------



## ultimobici

DrRoebuck said:


> Which of the three has a past of not quite respecting Tour traditions?


Which traditions has he disrespected in the past?


----------



## Swish

I feel as if many (mostly americans?) romanticize the tour a bit too much, words like traditions, honor and sportmanship are spouted without realizing that the tour has been a dog eat dog fight for over a century. Now and then we see acts of kindness towards the maillot jaune, but to promote these to the modus operandus of the peloton is wrong.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

ultimobici said:


> Which traditions has he disrespected in the past?


Lance Pharmstrong ?


----------



## ultimobici

Salsa_Lover said:


> Lance Pharmstrong ?


Contador was the Astana team leader before Armstrong came back. In addition, had Contador been allowed to start the 2008 Tour he'd had in all probability been the defending champion to boot.
AC beat LA by 21" in the Prologue, took time out of him in the Alps and beat him in the Annency TT. The only stage LA took any time out of him was on the stage to La Grande Motte when he slipped into the front echelon instead of taking care of his better placed team leader. That was the first act of treachery in the 09 Tour. AC was simply looking after himself after that. LA opened the door by pulling a fast one on that stage.


----------



## rboseley99

*We call it a RACE*

Hello? It’s a RACE folks. I can see waiting when someone goes flying off the hill - but not for a mechanical incident. I suppose under TDF conditions it’s possible to drop a chain for no reason, but I doubt it. The mechanics for a team obviously bear a huge responsibility. A slight misalignment? Like Alberto or not I see no logical reason why he should have waited. It’s an integral part of the game. It is not impossible that Andy caused the drop - although I doubt that too. He would obviously know better than making a shift at that time - and certainly did not appear to do so.


----------



## JMKB2

In my opinion its shows poor sportsmanship. Nobody wants to win a race due to the fact your compitetion broke down. You would rather have him ride to the best of his abilities then bury him. Theres much more satisfaction in beating even competition. ac showed that he is afraid of andy and demonstrated why he may be champion, but never a great champion. I lost all respect for him today.


----------



## karatemom

cyclejim said:


> I suppose, but chain drop can happen due to a problem that isn't immediately apparent and happens intermittantly.


I suppose, but wouldn't he have noticed somewhere before the last 10K of the race?


----------



## rboseley99

To each his own I suppose. I am not a NASCAR fan, but I have a hard time seeing the field wait while some guy gets his car fixed. Then to me there is the question of how long would one would wait? It just puts another unnecessary obstacle into a sport which for the most part is free of bad calls, etc. from officials. The race officials had no say in the matter - as it’s called an “unwritten rule”. I certainly respect everyone’s opinions, but I still believe in the team concept. Maybe a mechanic was not responsible - but he certainly may have been.

It was pointed out that in the history of the TDF, many, including Mercks’ took advantage of mechanical failures to move on out. Perhaps Levi will come through and put it to rest. Now there is something to wait for. Like forever. I like the guy, but he just seems like he is never fully engaged at the TDF.


----------



## spade2you

scarecrow said:


> AC did nothing technically wrong, but was it the most honorable thing to do?


What the hell is "honorable" about gifting the first and 2nd in the GC to Sanchez and Menchov?! Can someone explain this? I think some of y'all have watched too many American sports flicks.


----------



## JohnHemlock

I gotta agree with Armstrong's take. I don't blame him for going but don't pretend you didnt see Andy's chain come off.


----------



## mudge

Salsa_Lover said:


> Contador didn't saw the malfunction, when you see the video, he attacks and passes Andy and only notice the mechanical later, then he looks puzzled looking back, but the others went with him and he can't just let 3 and 4 go on and he wait for 1.


He couldn't let them go, but he could catch them (which he did) and ask them to slow (which he did not). Whether he saw the malfunction or not is irrelevant, he would've been notified by his team director via radio. He knew, and he took advantage of the leader's misfortune. I have no doubt that barring misfortune of his own he was going to win the Tour anyway, but now he's tainted the victory.


----------



## bdx1366

MattSoutherden said:


> At least someone appears to have watched the whole race.
> 
> Anyway, it's nice that Andy can get back into the whiter-than-white jersey today. Maybe Bell can give him a helmet with a little halo on it, too.


totally agree


----------



## nate

Hawayyan said:


> I think this is it. What else has he done wrong than evidently the hated victory salute, last years tour win, and being on the cusp of his 5th GT win?
> 
> Don't understand the hatred.


He also speaks the wrong language.


----------



## penn_rider

You really can't compare this to NASCAR, or many other races.. But unwritten sportsmanship and written sportsmanship are included in all sports, and even though this kind of decorum was not existent when Merckx was racing does not mean that this adopted unwritten rule should be ignored or not forgotten. Today's racers have adopted this for many reasons, all of which benefit the sport. 
AC is an excellent cyclist, but he is selfish and seems to have no respect for other riders that get in the way. I don't like that part of him and I am sure many pro and non pro riders feel the same...


----------



## jptaylorsg

DrRoebuck said:


> Which of the three has a past of not quite respecting Tour traditions?


This has been asserted by several people, now including you.

I would love to hear evidence of this assertion. Some have debated his tactics, though I'd say it would be folly to debate his results.

Where has he not quite respected Tour traditions?


----------



## Perico

harlond said:


> I don't understand why people keep pointing out that Vino slowed when Schleck slowed. Vino is working for Contador and marked Schleck for Contador, so of course he slowed up when Schleck slowed up. Vino also slowed after he caught Schleck on the descent, and for the same reason as before--Vino is working for Contador. Vino waiting for Schleck doesn't mean anything about whether Contador broke the unwritten rule.


Actually if you watch the Video Vino is going hard until AS drops his chain, then he looks over and slows down, before going as soon as AC goes by.

To those talking about Menchov and Sanchez, do you honestly think that if AC slows down and says "we wait, we don't take advantage of a mechanical" they would have kept going?


----------



## spade2you

Swish said:


> I feel as if many (mostly americans?) romanticize the tour a bit too much, words like traditions, honor and sportmanship are spouted without realizing that the tour has been a dog eat dog fight for over a century.


That's about accurate. Hell, not hating AC practically makes one a fanboy. 

I'm a tad bummed my friends were posting rants on AC and why he was a __________ (nothing too flattering). 

AS made a move and all of the contenders responded instinctively. AS dropped back. It's not too uncommon for someone to make a move, but not have the legs. Tough break, but when someone attacks, you don't ask questions and respond to that move. If they fall back, keep moving!!!!! 

Furthermore, if AS doesn't have 2.5 minutes on AC before the ITT, it won't matter. Menchov would probably be within striking distance, too.


----------



## jptaylorsg

jeebus said:


> AC has already proven his impulsive immaturity as a racer.


Examples, please?

Particularly, examples that don't include him defending himself against the mutiny of his own team last year would be appreciated.

Also, all those who say "He saw the mechanical and attacked," please rewatch the video. He saw the attack and attacked. When he caught up to Andy, who slowed with the beginning of his chain problem, Andy was still turning the pedals. It's easy to see when you're scouring the Versus feed, which offers slo-mo and several angles, why Andy slowed, but from the perspective of a bike racer turning several hundred watts up a huge hill, the status of his competitor's chain is really far down on the list of things to notice. By the time Andy stopped his bike, Contador was far past him.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Beethoven said:


> I think you make the best possible case for AC (although the fact that Schleck lost time on the descent is immaterial to question whether AC should have attacked). Still on Keski's tape it is pretty evident to me that AC attacked the mechanical (and sees it, as he goes around AS).
> In any case, my point was to say that this is not a reason to _hate_ AC -- but I think it's legitimate to point out that he had alternative options.


I agree that when he looked back down the road and saw Andy off the bike, he should have slowed up, but it's clear to me in the video that he never looks at Andy's chain, and Andy is still turning the pedals when AC passes him - on the left, the opposite side of the chain.


----------



## Perico

jptaylorsg- Seriously? Do you just try to argue or do you simply not read about racing? AC has had a number of incidents that show he is lacking in tactical sense, including in races such as the Tour, Paris-Nice and Fleche Wallone.

To the person asking why no hate for DM and LLS- That's an easy one, AC is the defending champ, the Patron, its his job to command the peloton and to respect the traditions of the Tour. Instead he was on the ropes and decided to take advantage of AS misfortune.


----------



## spade2you

Perico said:


> jptaylorsg- Seriously? Do you just try to argue or do you simply not read about racing? AC has had a number of incidents that show he is lacking in tactical sense, including in races such as the Tour, Paris-Nice and Fleche Wallone.
> 
> To the person asking why no hate for DM and LLS- That's an easy one, AC is the defending champ, the Patron, its his job to command the peloton and to respect the traditions of the Tour. Instead he was on the ropes and decided to take advantage of AS misfortune.


LLS? You sure about that?


----------



## jptaylorsg

Perico said:


> jptaylorsg- Seriously? Do you just try to argue or do you simply not read about racing? AC has had a number of incidents that show he is lacking in tactical sense, including in races such as the Tour, Paris-Nice and Fleche Wallone.


Examples please. You've been more specific than "several," at least, but I'd like specific examples of him going against tradition, which is what's being asserted.

I mentioned that his tactics have been questioned. Tactics you don't agree with hardly equate to serially ignoring racing tradition, do they?

I'm not arguing, I'm asking for help.


----------



## Perico

spade2you said:


> LLS? You sure about that?


D'oh! I got my Sanchez mixed up. Of course I don't think it is good form to use S. Sanchez initials anyway.


----------



## den bakker

Perico said:


> jptaylorsg- Seriously? Do you just try to argue or do you simply not read about racing? AC has had a number of incidents that show he is lacking in tactical sense, including in races such as the Tour, Paris-Nice and Fleche Wallone.
> 
> To the person asking why no hate for DM and LLS- That's an easy one, AC is the defending champ, the Patron, its his job to command the peloton and to respect the traditions of the Tour. Instead he was on the ropes and decided to take advantage of AS misfortune.


so he broke tour traditions in Fleche wallone due to a lack of tactical sense. Ok, it's all clear now.


----------



## Perico

jptaylorsg said:


> Examples please. You've been more specific than "several," at least, but I'd like specific examples of him going against tradition, which is what's being asserted.
> 
> I mentioned that his tactics have been questioned. Tactics you don't agree with hardly equate to serially ignoring racing tradition, do they?
> 
> I'm not arguing, I'm asking for help.


Actually it sure seems like you are trying to argue since my response was about your response to this post:

"AC has already proven his impulsive immaturity as a racer."

Yet now you are going off on a different tangent.


----------



## spade2you

Perico said:


> To those talking about Menchov and Sanchez, do you honestly think that if AC slows down and says "we wait, we don't take advantage of a mechanical" they would have kept going?


I don't know if you've ever raced, but do you think they had the clarity to make that sort of call as they respond to the move and hit a surge of Adrenelin?


----------



## den bakker

Perico said:


> Actually if you watch the Video Vino is going hard until AS drops his chain, then he looks over and slows down, before going as soon as AC goes by.


yes vino went with AC to cover the attack. Schleck slows he slows. Basic racing.


----------



## spade2you

JohnHemlock said:


> I gotta agree with Armstrong's take. I don't blame him for going but don't pretend you didnt see Andy's chain come off.


Even with the clips and pics we've seen, you don't see AC's eyes and I'm almost certain he wasn't looking at AS's chain. You look up the road, at the other riders, the road, etc. Another rider's drive train is pretty low on the priority list, especially when the moves are being made.


----------



## Perico

spade2you- Started racing in 1985. Now answer me this question, why when a contender has crashed or had a mechanical in the past, were the others able to see what happened and wait? Red herring.

den bakker- His reaction was one of surprise not slowing to just mark the man.


----------



## sir duke

penn_rider said:


> AC is an excellent cyclist, but he is selfish and seems to have no respect for other riders that get in the way. I don't like that part of him and I am sure many pro and non pro riders feel the same...


That's why he's a winner. Swap out AC for LA and read it again. A lot of folks round here weren't complaining about things then.
It's amusing watching a lot of people in this thread getting their knickers in a twist about unsportsmanlike conduct and 'unwritten rules' and childish name-calling when a former 7 time champion may well be asked a lot of penetrating questions by law enforcement people about his own alleged unsportsmanlike conduct. Very soon. Collective amnesia? Or just conveniently irrelevant? In the scheme of things yesterday's events are very small potatoes.


----------



## Perico

sir duke said:


> That's why he's a winner. Swap out AC for LA and read it again. A lot of folks round here weren't complaining about things then.
> It's amusing watching a lot of people in this thread getting their knickers in a twist about unsportsmanlike conduct and 'unwritten rules' and childish name-calling when a former 7 time champion may well be asked a lot of penetrating questions by law enforcement people about his own alleged unsportsmanlike conduct. Very soon. Collective amnesia? Or just conveniently irrelevant? In the scheme of things yesterday's events are very small potatoes.



How do you explain LA waiting for Ullrich when he crashed? How about refusing to wear the yellow jersey after Dave Z crashed until he was threatened with expulsion? Sorry but LA may be cocky and arrogant and a jerk (what world class athlete isn't at times) but he certainly had a lot of respect for his opponents.


----------



## spade2you

Perico said:


> , why when a contender has crashed or had a mechanical in the past, were the others able to see what happened and wait? Red herring.


1. Most of those mechanicals weren't during THE move, which AS started. The past mechanicals/crashes were much more visible. 

2. Those riders controled the field. Clearly AS and AC don't control the field. 

3. In most of the prior cases, the #3 and #4 weren't usually in striking distance like that.


----------



## Perico

den bakker said:


> so he broke tour traditions in Fleche wallone due to a lack of tactical sense. Ok, it's all clear now.


You really need to work on your comprehension skills.


----------



## Perico

spade2you said:


> 1. Most of those mechanicals weren't during THE move, which AS started. The past mechanicals/crashes were much more visible.
> 
> 2. Those riders controled the field. Clearly AS and AC don't control the field.
> 
> 3. In most of the prior cases, the #3 and #4 weren't usually in striking distance like that.


1) Do you mean like Ullrich and his crash or LA and his crash by the mussette?

2) How do you know, did AC try to cotnrol the field?

3) Once again I'll cite 2003 and LA's crash.

Keep digging that hole you are in.


----------



## spade2you

Perico said:


> Keep digging that hole you are in.


I think you take yourself a little too seriously.


----------



## sir duke

Perico said:


> How do you explain LA waiting for Ullrich when he crashed? How about refusing to wear the yellow jersey after Dave Z crashed until he was threatened with expulsion? Sorry but LA may be cocky and arrogant and a jerk (what world class athlete isn't at times) but he certainly had a lot of respect for his opponents.


I'm not going to. You missed the point, and proved mine. Did you read the part about childish name calling?


----------



## Perico

sir duke said:


> I'm not going to. You missed the point, and proved mine. Did you read the part about childish name calling?


Of course not, instead you are going to try to move the goalposts to try to feel like you are still correct.

Reminds me of spade2you.


----------



## jptaylorsg

Perico said:


> How do you explain LA waiting for Ullrich when he crashed? How about refusing to wear the yellow jersey after Dave Z crashed until he was threatened with expulsion? Sorry but LA may be cocky and arrogant and a jerk (what world class athlete isn't at times) but he certainly had a lot of respect for his opponents.


This is a good point, and these things definitely happened, though some might debate the respecting his opponents part - Pantani for one.

Does Contador get credit for not wearing the yellow in the stage after Rasmussen's team expelled him, deciding to earn it on the road first?


----------



## carbonLORD

lastchild said:


> unless his point is to be a bigger a$$ hat than AC...in that he has succeeded.


_In the heat of the race and the finale, you cannot say to Contador, ‘wait for Andy.’ Andy didn’t wait for Contador on the cobblestones, either,”_ said RadioShack’s Johan Bruyneel. _“You can’t say to Sammy Sánchez, I’ll let you go because I’ll wait for the yellow jersey. No, there are *no gifts* in this race.”_

I guess Bruyneel is an a$$ hat as well, you Jack-Wagon.


----------



## nOOky

Heck, maybe the voice in AC's earpiece was telling him to attack! attack! or maybe he had already activated the small electric motor in his down tube and decided to let her eat


----------



## jptaylorsg

Perico said:


> Actually it sure seems like you are trying to argue since my response was about your response to this post:
> 
> "AC has already proven his impulsive immaturity as a racer."
> 
> Yet now you are going off on a different tangent.


Sorry. It's hard to know what post you're responding to when you don't include the quote to which you're responding. Especially in a long thread. Including the poster's name in your response without the quote isn't much help when that poster might well have

If you agree that his tactics are impulsive and immature, then fair enough.

I thought you were responding to my request for specific examples of him flouting cycling traditions.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2891521#poststop 

And if you honestly think that someone asking for examples to back up damning assertions is arguing, then again, fair enough.


----------



## jnbrown

Why does waiting for somebody who makes a mistake only apply to the yellow jersey?
If Cadel, Menchov or Sanchez or anybody else made a bad shift would they wait for them?
Doesn't make sense to me.
Ulrich did not wait wait for Armstrong he went full bore until other riders convinced him to slow down, not that it matters.
This is all about who you want to win. Those who want Schleck to win think Contador did something wrong. Those who want Contador to win think he did nothing wrong.
No official rules were broken.


----------



## Italophile

harlond said:


> I don't understand why people keep pointing out that Vino slowed when Schleck slowed. Vino is working for Contador and marked Schleck for Contador, so of course he slowed up when Schleck slowed up. Vino also slowed after he caught Schleck on the descent, and for the same reason as before--Vino is working for Contador. Vino waiting for Schleck doesn't mean anything about whether Contador broke the unwritten rule.


Thank you. :thumbsup:


----------



## Italophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-theory
Cancellara (Saxobank) slowed the entire peloton on stage 1 so AS could catch up. Then on stage 3, after Frank Schleck crashes and breaks apart the peloton and slows everyone else down, Cancellara decides to attack full blast and give Andy a lead. That seems totally hypocritical to me. It was Frank Schleck who crashed and Andy gained time from that. It seemed AS was willing to do whatever it took to gain some time on AC at that stage in the race.

Brilliant. What is good for the goose has got to be good for the gander. Andy just wants all the breaks to go his way.


----------



## adimiro

Perico said:


> Sorry but LA may be cocky and arrogant and a jerk (what world class athlete isn't at times) but he certainly had a lot of respect for his opponents.


Yeah, alot more than he showed to his team-mate and rightful team captain while with Astana last year.


----------



## Italophile

jptaylorsg said:


> ...Also, all those who say "He saw the mechanical and attacked," please rewatch the video. He saw the attack and attacked. When he caught up to Andy, who slowed with the beginning of his chain problem, Andy was still turning the pedals. It's easy to see when you're scouring the Versus feed, which offers slo-mo and several angles, why Andy slowed, but from the perspective of a bike racer turning several hundred watts up a huge hill, the status of his competitor's chain is really far down on the list of things to notice. By the time Andy stopped his bike, Contador was far past him.


Thank you.

And, friends, don't forget that Andy lost about 30 seconds in the mechanical incident, more than 20 off his bike, but only had 13 seconds deficit at the summit. Watch the video. If Contador wanted to exploit this incident, he, Menchov, and Sanchez would have had at least 30 seconds at the summit. Moreover, Contador must have looked back for Schleck fifty times!

*There was no hard attack!*

He lost the rest of the time with an inferior (to DM, SS, and AC) descent. No crime has been committed, here.


----------



## meat

The consensus on the group ride this morning in Phoenix this morning was that if Andy had not been attacking with no team mates Contador would have waited. Andy attacked, missed a shift, and game on. What a difference it might have been if they had left a team mate with Andy instead of blowing them all up pushing the pace.


----------



## Perico

adimiro said:


> Yeah, alot more than he showed to his team-mate and rightful team captain while with Astana last year.


Why respect someone who decides to play his own game (team be damned), ignore the DS who led him to his GT wins and is the most successful GT DS in recent times and attack his own teammates?


----------



## adimiro

Perico said:


> Why respect someone who decides to play his own game (team be damned), ignore the DS who led him to his GT wins and is the most successful GT DS in recent times and attack his own teammates?



I think you have the sequence of event backwards.


----------



## MaddSkillz

In Cyclng, it's not really about who's fastest, but who's the nicest...

I'm starting to reconsider why a lot of cyclists shave their legs.


----------



## skeeter

i'm pulling for AS, but in this instance, i think the combination of many factors really made it hard for AC to follow the gentlemen's agreement. 

you're at the end of a stage, you get attacked, you muster up the strength to get out of the saddle and battle back, and while in the midst of it, something out of the ordinary happens. i look at it this way. had AC been in the saddle when AS' chain came off, and THEN he attacked, i think he could clearly be deemed a d1ck. in this instance, AS starts the aggression, AC responds, as do some other top contenders, and then AS suddenly stops. AC is basically already committed to hammering it out to the top, and now he has to process all the what if's and what happened's. with 3 and 4 right there, he probably said eff it, and continued what he had probably mentally committed to. 

now maybe a little further up the hill, after a little time to consider things, he could have eased up, but at this point, easing up would mean he hammered up the climb for nothing.

and more to the point, AS, the yellow jersey, dictated when it was go time. he started it, the contenders followed, AS faltered, and everyone else continued to go. for the GC guys, their sprint to the finish was on once AS attacked.


----------



## Richard

Italophile said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by M-theory
> Cancellara (Saxobank) slowed the entire peloton on stage 1 so AS could catch up. Then on stage 3, after Frank Schleck crashes and breaks apart the peloton and slows everyone else down, Cancellara decides to attack full blast and give Andy a lead. That seems totally hypocritical to me. It was Frank Schleck who crashed and Andy gained time from that. It seemed AS was willing to do whatever it took to gain some time on AC at that stage in the race.


Different circumstances entirely. The wet, treacherous decent on that stage was creating general carnage. Cancellara was the "patron" and with the cooperation of other teams "neutralized" the race to prevent it from becoming a demolition derby. But no small number of riders weren't happy with that.


----------



## Ventruck

What did I tell all of you?


----------



## Francis Cebedo

This morning, Phil Liggett adamantly defended Contador's actions.

Sherwin and Bobke disagreed with him and made much better arguments. Liggett looked rattled and lost his composure a bit.

fc


----------



## jptaylorsg

francois said:


> This morning, Phil Liggett adamantly defended Contador's actions.
> 
> Sherwin and Bobke disagreed with him and made much better arguments. Liggett looked rattled and lost his composure a bit.
> 
> fc


Yesterday, I thought Sherwin and Liggett might come to blows on air as Paul spackled on the "Andy Schleck is a true warrior and will ride with violence because of Contador's move, which was brought on by fear of this man!" crap, and Phil kept needling him with, I think Contador was within his rights, etc...

It was good stuff.

I tend to give Sherwin the benefit of the doubt because he's actually been in the race, but his expertise seems to run along the lines of how to form a proper autobus on the tough climbing stages, so I'm not sure he has really experienced the opportunity to attack the yellow any more than any of us.

Bike Snob NYC had a decent take on it: "Contador's move was tremendously controversial, since in the French sporting world any action that results in victory is considered unseemly. (Thomas Voeckler is exempt from this due to his appropriately disproportionate failure-to-success ratio.)"


----------



## wooglin

This thread is so yesterday.


----------



## harlond

I liked Ryder Hejsedal's very succinct take on it: "If you draw your sword and drop it, you die."

Heard that on the VeloNews morning minute for today.


----------



## skeeter

harlond said:


> I liked Ryder Hejsedal's very succinct take on it: "If you draw your sword and drop it, you die."
> 
> Heard that on the VeloNews morning minute for today.




for me, that pretty much sums it up. i still want andy to stomp some ass on the next stage.


----------



## jptaylorsg

harlond said:


> I liked Ryder Hejsedal's very succinct take on it: "If you draw your sword and drop it, you die."
> 
> Heard that on the VeloNews morning minute for today.



Clearly Ryder doesn't understand pro cycling. Wait ... I'm getting something ... he IS a pro cyclist? IN this year's Tour? Oh, well never mind.

He kind of succinctly puts a point on it - and points out what a lot of folks are getting wrong. 

Alberto didn't launch an attack against Schleck when Schleck had a mishap. Schleck launched an attack that Contador responded to. Schleck's attack caused the mishap, the mishap didn't invoke an attack.

I still think Bert probably should have slowed them when he found out about Andy's mechanical, but it was game on, so I don't blame him for what happened.


----------



## pretender

wooglin said:


> This thread is so yesterday.


Indeed. Andy and Alberto have already kissed and made up.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...ance-contador-schleck-bury-the-hatchet_130287


----------



## MaddSkillz

"dude, I'm gonna wait back here in the second group since my team manager told me my rival just had a mechanical about a minute up the road. It would be unfair for me to close the distance right now... Let's all just wait here until I hear that he's fixed it."


----------



## g29er

Alberto apology on Youtube.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/contador-apologizes-on-youtube/


----------



## dwgranda

I like how Phil seemed to be needling Paul during the stage everytime there was a mechanical. Once or twice I think Paul sarcastically agreed with him. I think they definetely don't see on the level regarding this topic


----------



## ti-triodes

g29er said:


> Alberto apology on Youtube.
> 
> http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/contador-apologizes-on-youtube/




I love how Alberto is sorry after he robs the stage. What a heinous little troll.


----------



## louise

jptaylorsg said:


> Clearly Ryder doesn't understand pro cycling. Wait ... I'm getting something ... he IS a pro cyclist? IN this year's Tour? Oh, well never mind.
> 
> He kind of succinctly puts a point on it - and points out what a lot of folks are getting wrong.
> 
> Alberto didn't launch an attack against Schleck when Schleck had a mishap. Schleck launched an attack that Contador responded to. Schleck's attack caused the mishap, the mishap didn't invoke an attack.
> 
> *I still think Bert probably should have slowed them when he found out about Andy's mechanical,* but it was game on, so I don't blame him for what happened.



Why?

As you point out, it wasn't he who launched the attack.


----------



## Hawayyan

I like how Ryder H put it: You drop your sword and drop it, you die!!


----------



## rboseley99

I got in touch with Sarah Palin and asked her opinion of the situation in the Tour de France. She said that when a dog becomes ill, no one waits for the beast to get well. They just mush on. In what regard, Andy? 

In soccer (football) we always wait if a defender falls down. It would not be sporting to score while a defender is out of position.

What a bunch of kids. And I sometimes wonder why bike racing can’t make it in America. And while I don’t like NASCAR, I see no difference at all. Two guy going at it for 3 hours running 1 & 2 the poor old #1 runs out of gas. HOLD UP HANK we got to wait while Sammy gets gas.


----------



## alexb618

dwgranda said:


> I like how Phil seemed to be needling Paul during the stage everytime there was a mechanical. Once or twice I think Paul sarcastically agreed with him. I think they definetely don't see on the level regarding this topic


that was actually really funny

when gesink had a flat about 30k out, phil says 'so paul do you think they peloton should wait?'


----------



## bigmig19

687? Impressive


----------



## sir duke

Edit: double post


----------



## sir duke

Perico said:


> Of course not, instead you are going to try to move the goalposts to try to feel like you are still correct.
> 
> Reminds me of spade2you.


OK. If it makes you happy. My first memory of Armstrong was an extremely positive one, soloing to a stage victory in tribute to his team mate Fabian Casartelli who had died of head injuries 2 days previously in a stage at the 95 Tour. Armstrong was obviously very emotional about it all and I was impressed with his very heartfelt gesture. I sincerely hope Contador or any other rider never finds himself having to make a tribute of that nature.Kind of brings it home how tough this sport is and sometimes unforgiving. That's why I find a lot of these comments, yours included, very borish. Perspective my friend.


----------



## jptaylorsg

louise said:


> Why?
> 
> As you point out, it wasn't he who launched the attack.


True, but it would have been sportsmanlike, and I appreciate gestures of sportsmanship, even when they're not necessary.


----------



## nOOky

alexb618 said:


> that was actually really funny
> 
> when gesink had a flat about 30k out, phil says 'so paul do you think they peloton should wait?'


I am just watching the dvr'ed stage now and that was hilarious.


----------



## jptaylorsg

alexb618 said:


> that was actually really funny
> 
> when gesink had a flat about 30k out, phil says 'so paul do you think they peloton should wait?'


I'm glad Phil got that in. 

I'm watching the DVR now. Paul was pretty douchey with him. "Well, Phil, you don't know. You've never actually ridden in the Tour. I have."

Then they kind of scoff about Phil having ridden in the Tour of Ireland, like it's not real racing or something.

What a turd burglar..


----------



## moabbiker

Is there anyway to mute Paul while keeping Phil the only one talking? I'm sick of Paul, can't stand him anymore. At least Phil has a legacy with commentating so I can live with his alzheimers. But Paul's arrogance is just too much and unprofessional. Who cares he road the tour when he gave the lanterne rogue a run for the money?


----------



## dwgranda

I get a feeling that this supposed tradition stuff is more important for the backbenchers, kinda like the receptionist making sure the pencils and candy are well organized.




moabbiker said:


> Is there anyway to mute Paul while keeping Phil the only one talking? I'm sick of Paul, can't stand him anymore. At least Phil has a legacy with commentating so I can live with his alzheimers. But Paul's arrogance is just too much and unprofessional. Who cares he road the tour when he gave the lanterne rogue a run for the money?


----------



## il sogno

jptaylorsg said:


> I'm glad Phil got that in.
> 
> I'm watching the DVR now. *Paul was pretty douchey with him. "Well, Phil, you don't know. You've never actually ridden in the Tour. I have."*
> 
> Then they kind of scoff about Phil having ridden in the Tour of Ireland, like it's not real racing or something.
> 
> What a turd burglar..


Prolly cause he knows he's lost the argument.


----------



## il sogno

pretender said:


> Indeed. Andy and Alberto have already kissed and made up.
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...ance-contador-schleck-bury-the-hatchet_130287


I think everyone in this thread should join together in a gigantic group hug.


----------



## cq20

As for the allegedly "time immemorial" tradition of not attacking the Yellow Jersey when he's had a mechanical, I saw these examples quoted on a TV highlights program last night:

In 1964, when Poulidor (in Yellow) had to change a wheel, the pack accelerated and Anquetil took 2.5 minutes advantage and Poulidor lost the Tour by 55 seconds.

In 1987, when Bernard (in Yellow) slipped his chain, Roche and Deldado took advantage with Delgado winning the stage and Roche winning the Tour.


----------



## karatemom

700 posts. I am pretty sure we've spent more time talking about this than Andy and Contador have.


----------



## MoonHowl

Official new cycling term:

“I just Schlecked my chain”


----------



## saird

MoonHowl said:


> Official new cycling term:
> 
> “I just Schlecked my chain”


Schlepped?


----------



## thechriswebb

I was pretty upset about it at first, but...

In the interview with Lance Armstrong on VS, it almost sounded like he was sort of maybe defending Contador's move. Armstrong has always taken every chance offered to him to criticize Contador's shenanigans, so I'm thinking that the general attitude in the peloton is that it's not that big of a deal and it's time to move on. I agree.


----------



## Biker Bear

...............................


It doesn't matter. The race was always Contador's to lose. In the end, Contador will be ahead of Andy by minutes. In fact, I'm not even sure that Andy will come in second.

No one mentioned that Contador put 15 seconds on Andy during the downhill portion of the stage and that had nothing to do with the chain drop.

Andy also attacked Contador hard on the final uphill and that's where the chain is the most vulnerable to dropping or snapping. Andy should have known the risks and he probably did.

I like Andy and he will most likely win a TDF or two in his career. But he behaved like a baby blaming everyone except himself for his misfortune. The final standings after the race will show that Andy never really had a chance to win the GC. But it was Andy who was the d!ick and crybaby on this one. Contador never showed any arrogance and I have never seen him complain or blame anyone for his luck. It was Contador who showed class. Andy was the d!ck!


----------



## Biker Bear

Salsa_Lover said:


> Many of you don't remember that Andy Schleck got his 30' advantage over contador during the stage on the Pavés, where Contador had a mechanical ( he had a broken spoke and had to finish the stage with the wheel rubbing the fork ),
> 
> Andy didn't wait Contador then.




That's a great point and one that the AC haters tend to conveniently ignore or forget. The only reason why AS was ahead of AC in the first place was because of ACs mechanical failure. Let's just get to the point - This criticism of AC is based on hatred and has nothing to do with his riding skills or lack of class. 

If the roles were revered and AS would have attacked AC for a chain drop, I doubt that the d!cks who are criticizing AC on this thread would post the same about AS.


----------



## gh1

nOOky said:


> I am just watching the dvr'ed stage now and that was hilarious.


Actually Phil made the comment twice, each time that Gesink flated. I would be easy to say they dont agree on this topic. Phil was very sarcastic in his comment, was very funny.


----------



## LostViking

Perhaps it's time we put this baby to bed?

The Tour moves on, I suggest we do as well.

Peace.


----------



## biobanker

Fingerbang better get used to pissing while he rolls.


----------



## 55x11

LostViking said:


> Perhaps it's time we put this baby to bed?
> 
> The Tour moves on, I suggest we do as well.
> 
> Peace.


We can make it 1,000 posts. Come on, don't give up now! It's like stopping to pedal with 1K to go while still in the lead after being in a solo breakaway for 60 miles.


----------



## shabbasuraj

AS should learn how to properly shift SRAM. Seriously... Di2


----------



## slonoma98

Some of you should really take what the Versus guys say with a grain of salt. I mean come on is it any secret they're pretty much anti-Contador. In the end it's a race. I'm sure Andy's over it by now.


----------



## shabbasuraj

All those VS guys are just sour haters, it is so obvious. they all hate CONTY.


----------



## wunderhorn

I feel obliged to observe that these unwritten rules smack of trade-unionism, which is also not gentlemanly or honorable.


----------



## spade2you

shabbasuraj said:


> All those VS guys are just sour haters, it is so obvious. they all hate CONTY.


Doesn't everyone in the Western hemisphere?  It sure seems that way. 

Anyway, I hate to be too blunt, (and perhaps this has already been said given the 700+ posts) but unless Schleck has a solid 2.5-3 minutes on Alberto before the ITT, I just don't see it happening. However, I wish them all well.


----------



## dfvcador

Okay! It is obvious that lots of the posters dont like Mr. Contador base on the comments. As stated previously, this is a professional cycling race called TdF and unfortunately not everything has to be politically correct, righteous or fair. Most people fail to recall when Contador had spoke/wheel issues on the cobbles... I dont see anyone *****ing about AS not stopping for Mr. Contador and waiting. 

Sorry!! but AS need to learn how to shift gears and stop blaming Contador for the lost of the Yellow Jrys. DM and SS would have moved up on the GC if AC had not made the move he did, so I see no wrong doing. It's a pro-race and **** happens. I guaranty that if it was the other way around nobody would have complained about AS attack on AC.


Viva Conty!!!!!


----------



## MoonHowl

Would AC be viewed as a great champion if he waited for AS then went on to win the tour? He made a decision to win and not keep the respect of everyone and he heard it when he put on the yellow. How will AC be remembered now? In time it will likely be forgotten.


----------



## Christine

Reminds me of the animated movie Cars. Wasn't there a scene just like this? Well, similar. Champion gets on the podium, expecting accolades after his opponent just stopped and let him win.


----------



## 55x11

bdx1366 said:


> you are dreaming if you think a cyclist is marketable outside of europe. Other then lance who else is making money outside of Europe?


I guess you don't subscribe to any bicycling-specialized magazines and don't get any catalogues. Alberto's image is used to sell bikes, saddles, pedals and pretty much everything else.



bdx1366 said:


> and how exactly was Chavanel 's situation different? more then one person took advantage of his situation. But I guess he is a nobody in your hierarchy.


Chavanel's situation was different on so many levels. Mechanicals on cobbles are to be expected and basically part of strategy. Chavanel wasn't in the front group when he flatted, not even close. When Chavanel flatted Schleck & Co had no way of knowing he flatted, but even if they did - they didn't attack, they kept on riding at the same pace as they would otherwise. I could go on, but I will stop here. If you really don't understand the difference between those situations nothing I can say will convince you or others.


----------



## CurbDestroyer

You have the Machiavelli point of view . . . anyway you can get a win is a win, but then you have the Lombardi view. 


> It is a reality of life that men are competitive and the most competitive games draw the most competitive men. That's why they are there - to compete. The object is to win fairly, squarely, by the rules, but to win.
> 
> And in truth, I've never known a man worth his salt who in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline. There is something in good men that really yearns for discipline and the harsh reality of head to head combat.
> 
> I don't say these things because I believe in the "brute" nature of man or that men must be brutalized to be combative. I believe in God, and I believe in human decency. But I firmly believe that any man's finest hour - his greatest fulfillment to all he holds dear - is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious".
> - Vince lombardi


The real meat and potatoes of the speech is this sentence, "...The object is to win fairly, squarely, by the rules, but to win." . . . Mechanicals and luck always play a role, but if Contador would have waited, he could have eliminated the "What Ifs", and doubts. He would have presented himself as the superior racer, he would have been respected as a True Champion.

I also look at LeMond's :08 second win in the same light. I believe if it wasn't for those Scott bars in the final TT Laurent Fignon would have won. . . . Handlebars? 

But in the end, is racing any different than day to day life. Life isn't fair, and neither is racing. What about those time trails that it starts raining after 1/2 the field has gone through? 

It's why we watch the race.


----------



## technic05

*what's the point...*

... i do believe that Contador should have taken the honorable route and wait for Andy to sort out the mechanical instead of exploiting it. This is a race, but a race of men powering bicycles with every part exposed to the elements. Not v8 powered machines under carbon fiber protectors. Contador would've been justified if he didn't stop for the other rider earlier in the Tour. How can you just switch up your M.O like that?

If that was the case, it's just a race, why does a group or peloton get all the same time? Why not take multiple frame pictures and distribute times accordingly, It hardly seems that this is fair since this is a "race."


----------



## Oxtox

comments on this issue seem to mostly break down along the lines of rider popularity. 

those that don't care for AC find his actions to be 'unsportsmanlike.'

those that do regard him as a focused competitor and label his attack as 'just racing'...

the 'win at any cost' mindset is not what sports should be about IMO. that's appropriate for gladiator battles, but this is just bicycle racing. 

...you may now continue to bludgeon the deceased equine mammal.


----------



## shabbasuraj

AS got punked after all.... If he was wearing yellow in stage 17 he would have lost way more than just 39 seconds.. Conty was just toying with the poor chap all the way up, sucking wheel... and then gifted him the stage to throw salt in the wound.


----------



## Perico

MoonHowl said:


> Would AC be viewed as a great champion if he waited for AS then went on to win the tour? He made a decision to win and not keep the respect of everyone and he heard it when he put on the yellow. How will AC be remembered now? In time it will likely be forgotten.


It won't be forgotten, cycling is a sport that revels in it's history. Incidents from past Tours are mentioned every year and in every book about the Tour.


----------



## Beethoven

shabbasuraj said:


> AS got punked after all.... If he was wearing yellow in stage 17 he would have lost way more than just 39 seconds.. Conty was just toying with the poor chap all the way up, sucking wheel... and then gifted him the stage to throw salt in the wound.


You say that as if it was admirable...


----------



## malanb

well the post is abot AC being a DB, so AS worked the whole time and AC let him take the stage, that is one of those unwritten rules


----------



## Ridin'Sorra

If AC puts more than 39 secs at the end of the tour over Schleck, this incident will be simply irrelevant.

If not, we will argue about sportsmanship, honor and luck.


----------



## LostViking

Someone should just start a I hate Conti thread - someone else can start a I hate Andy thread - then we can count the hits and settle this once and for all!

I've not seen the end of the stage yet, but I gather Andy couldn't lose Conti (not too surprizing considering how evenly matched they are on the mountains) but pushed all the way up and Conti either "let" Andy win or just couldn't pass Andy - following an "unwritten rule" or just not able? 

I'm looking forward to seeing the finish after work.


----------



## foofighter

Need to start a post about hating on Spaniards because when Sammy took a dive and split the peleton, it was AC that slowed the pace down and Sastre kept going LOL


----------



## Fredrico

*Absolve the man!*

Today, on the Tourmalet, Contador paces Schleck all the way up to the summit, testing Shleck's legs once, then graciously lets him win the stage by a half wheel. They put their arms around each other after the win, in solidarity, and for Schleck, thanks.

It seems like they pulled together, forgive the pun, on that mother of mountains, and made friends born of respect for the other's extraordinary abilities. This is what cycling is all about. :thumbsup:


----------



## izzyfly

Fredrico said:


> Today, on the Tourmalet, Contador paces Schleck all the way up to the summit, testing Shleck's legs once, then graciously lets him win the stage by a half wheel. They put their arms around each other after the win, in solidarity, and for Schleck, thanks.
> 
> It seems like they pulled together, forgive the pun, on that mother of mountains, and made friends born of respect for the other's extraordinary abilities. This is what cycling is all about. :thumbsup:


+1 :thumbsup:


----------



## Fogdweller

Andy Shleck has ask that people not bash Alberto. Moderator, please delete this thread.


----------



## senecacyclist

Its ALL about the money. Just dont offer any and see what kind of competitors you would get.


----------



## BlueGrassBlazer

carbonLORD said:


> My point is, waiting for someone for any reason, (crash, mechanical, etc) and expecting that to come back to you is as ridiculous as those who believe in karma.
> 
> People seem to have forgotten that this is a race for high stakes, money, sponsors, fame, etc etc.
> 
> Contador owes his competitors nothing. You can fault Specialized, or SRAM (Shimano?) or Schlecks mechanic.
> 
> This is not fantasy TDF where there is no consequence for failure.



TDF has always been about hight stakes, fame, glory, whatever. You don't suddenly justify a dick move simply because money is involved. Contador is a professional cyclist and owes his riders the same respect and courtesies that are customary for the TDF and cycling in general. He expects the courtesy but failed to extend it to Schleck.
Total fail and there's no good justification for it.


----------



## QuickPavement

*The damage is done - Tainted TDF to Contador*

Even though Contador seemingly allowed Schleck to win stage 17, as all observers know, the real damage had already been done in stage 15 when Scheck dropped his chain, and Contador attacked and picked up 38 seconds in that stage to a 8 sec. advantage. Allowing Andy to win 17 does not make up for Contador's unsportsman-like decision to attack when Andy dropped his chain. Alberto will win this year's TDF, but, it will be a tainted victory.


----------



## Ridin'Sorra

Not if he gets to put more than 39 seconds of difference over AS at the end.


----------



## JoelS

First post? Sock puppet....


----------



## den bakker

4 years and almost 7 months. then



BAM


----------



## MrDomino

You know, I haven't been watching much of the TdF (mainly since I don't have cable now since I'm moving out soon) but I have been catching bits and pieces on the internets and from what I've seen and heard I think that there are mitigating circumstances in regards to Contador leaving Schleck.

1) Every time my chain has come off my bike it's because I've either tried to downshift too fast or upshift under torque. The chain popping off isn't a random occurrence unless you're riding a department store bike that's been sitting outside for 3 years and has been absolutely beat to hell.

2) It sounds like Schleck took forever to put his chain back on. If you know what you're doing and are in a race where time is of the essence then I think it should only take 5-10 seconds to get back on. 

3) If Contador was already starting his attack then he should be allowed to keep going. It almost feels as if Schleck was unprepared (good timing on Contador's part then) and he made a stupid mistake shifting because he wasn't paying attention.

This is just my take on it but like I said, I haven't been watching the entire thing so I don't know...


----------



## Salsa_Lover

you are spot on MrDomino.


----------



## pcs2

den bakker said:


> 4 years and almost 7 months. then
> 
> 
> 
> BAM


Sometimes there's reasons.......

.....Just sayin'


----------



## Sylint

Salsa_Lover said:


> you are spot on MrDomino.


well I wouldn't say spot on, but yeah..close enough.


----------



## shabbasuraj

AS must learn how to properly shift while attacking. This is the final word. Pro means Pro all the time.


----------



## Beethoven

All hail shabbasuraj!


----------



## shabbasuraj

Beethoven said:


> All hail shabbasuraj!


Amen brother... amen. 

Best RBR thread in .... err....since..... 2006 Giro?


----------



## shabbasuraj

This morning I ate a french baguette with salted butter.


----------



## JustTooBig

QuickPavement said:


> Even though Contador seemingly allowed Schleck to win stage 17, as all observers know, the real damage had already been done in stage 15 when Scheck dropped his chain, and Contador attacked and picked up 38 seconds in that stage to a 8 sec. advantage. Allowing Andy to win 17 does not make up for Contador's unsportsman-like decision to attack when Andy dropped his chain. Alberto will win this year's TDF, but, it will be a tainted victory.


well, AS was only 13sec behind Conti at the top of the climb, so he managed to lose the balance of that time on his own during the descent.

and scroll down .... yeah, MrDomino knows a helluva lot more than you do. Nice trolling attempt, though.


----------



## shabbasuraj

AS may very well choke in the ITT. watch for it. .................


----------



## spookyload

MrDomino said:


> 3) If Contador was already starting his attack then he should be allowed to keep going. It almost feels as if Schleck was unprepared (good timing on Contador's part then) and he made a stupid mistake shifting because he wasn't paying attention.
> 
> This is just my take on it but like I said, I haven't been watching the entire thing so I don't know...


Not so sure that is how it played out though. From watching it, Scheck's chain dropped when he started putting in an effort, be it attack or reaction, then AC attacked. He was behind Andy when the chain dropped and the sudden deceleration surely caught his eye. It is a sad way to take the jersey, but I really think it won't matter as I think Contador is going to take more than a minute out of Andy in the ITT. His only hope is if Contador has a bike change or crashes. I bike change might not even be enough to save him though. I highly doubt he is going to be going on a stroll like Fignon did for Lemonds win.


----------



## Blue CheeseHead

Salsa_Lover said:


> you are spot on MrDomino.


No, not spot on. 

Schleck had gapped Vino and Berto by couple seconds. Vino and Berto were responsing to Andy's attack when the chain got caught up. Vino was the closest and sat up immediately. Berto continued to blow by them both. He had to of know by the speed he passed the other two that something was wrong. He is good, but not that good.

The fact that Berto claimed he did not see that Andy had a problem (total BS) tells you that he knows that he should have slowed.

He was very noble to let Andy have the stage yesterday. It's like giving him $5 when he took $20 from him 2 days before and saying. "Good, are we cool now?"


----------



## LostViking

*The Final Word*



shabbasuraj said:


> AS must learn how to properly shift while attacking. This is the final word. Pro means Pro all the time.


Well, thank God, Shabbasuraj has finally uttered the final word on this issue!

We are now all free to move on.:thumbsup:


----------



## jptaylorsg

LostViking said:


> Well, thank God, Shabbasuraj has finally uttered the final word on this issue!
> 
> We are now all free to move on.:thumbsup:


Considering he immediately followed up "This is the final word" with another sentence, I wouldn't be so sure ...


----------



## Borti

Very few people outside of this forum seem to view this tour as tainted.


----------



## F.P.

Ridin'Sorra said:


> Not if he gets to put more than 39 seconds of difference over AS at the end.


Yeah, I've heard that one. Even Liggett said none of it will matter if AC wins the TT by 2 minutes. What about the fact that if AC had waited for Shleck, Andy would not have been in such a panic trying to re-attach to the group, and could have attacked and maybe have dropped AC? He couldn't drop him yesterday I know, but maybe on that day it would have been. Woulda, coulda, shoulda....blah, blah, blah.
GO Andy!


----------



## pretender

The only people who still care about Chaingate 2010 are idiots.

Present company excepted, of course.


----------



## Steve B.

F.P. said:


> Andy would not have been in such a panic trying to re-attach to the group, and could have attacked and maybe have dropped AC? He couldn't drop him yesterday I know, but maybe on that day it would have been. Woulda, coulda, shoulda....blah, blah, blah.
> GO Andy!


Andy doesn't have the ability to accelerate away from AC, while AC does have the ability and that was apparent on the Tourmalet. Andy could not ride Alberto off his wheel, but he was able to dust everyone else. Andy also came close to losing AC when AC tried his own acceleration yesterday, but that's a tough thing to do when there's nobody else around and it's just the 2 riders. 

When Andy dropped the chain he on Stage 15, he tried to close the gap and was only 12 seconds off AC at the crest of the hill, but lost more time on the descent, so the reality is the chain drop isn't a deal breaker overall. The ITT will settle the dust.

SB


----------



## LostViking

"Final Word"


----------



## MaddSkillz

Does anyone here know why AS was in yellow? 

It was because AC had a mechanical (broken spokes and whatnot) and AS did not wait for him. That's how the time gap was built putting AS in yellow.

But for some reason AC was supposed to wait for AS during his "mechanical?"

Can someone explain this to me?


----------



## adimiro

Haven't we already said it all in the 700+ posts on the other thread?


----------



## jorgy

That's bike racing.

FWIW, some LeMond fans see the 1985 win of Hinault as tainted. But LeMond was no doubt paid very well to help Hinault win--NOT take the yellow jersey himself. That's the way it goes sometimes.


----------



## godot

MaddSkillz said:


> Does anyone here know why AS was in yellow?
> 
> It was because AC had a mechanical (broken spokes and whatnot) and AS did not wait for him. That's how the time gap was built putting AS in yellow.
> 
> But for some reason AC was supposed to wait for AS during his "mechanical?"
> 
> Can someone explain this to me?


It's simple
AS = good guy
AC = d-bag

Haven't you been paying attention?


----------



## Pablo

godot said:


> It's simple
> AS = good guy
> AC = d-bag
> 
> Haven't you been paying attention?


Werd. I wonder if the people railing on AC have even seen the video of it.


----------



## jptaylorsg

I was wondering when QuickPavement was finally going to settle this for us.


----------



## pulser955

For all the AC haters 


HA HA 

















That is all.


----------



## stevesbike

seriously, put aside the whole tainted thing. Contador is a damn formidable grand tour rider - at 27 he has 3 Tour wins - and likely would have 4 if allowed to race in 08. He has no weakness to exploit (so much for cobbles) and will likely put a minute or two into AS tomorrow. Might as well get used to him - likely to be the guy to beat LA's 7 wins...


----------



## barhopper

MaddSkillz said:


> Does anyone here know why AS was in yellow?
> 
> It was because AC had a mechanical (broken spokes and whatnot) and AS did not wait for him. That's how the time gap was built putting AS in yellow.
> 
> But for some reason AC was supposed to wait for AS during his "mechanical?"
> 
> Can someone explain this to me?




I think it has more to do with respecting the yellow jersey .....not every other rider in the tour.


----------



## barhopper

stevesbike said:


> seriously, put aside the whole tainted thing. Contador is a damn formidable grand tour rider - at 27 he has 3 Tour wins - and likely would have 4 if allowed to race in 08. He has no weakness to exploit (so much for cobbles) and will likely put a minute or two into AS tomorrow. Might as well get used to him - likely to be the guy to beat LA's 7 wins...








EXACTLY !!! He didn't need to win this way. :mad2:


----------



## DrRoebuck

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Schleck had gapped Vino and Berto by couple seconds. Vino and Berto were responsing to Andy's attack when the chain got caught up. Vino was the closest and sat up immediately. Berto continued to blow by them both. He had to of know by the speed he passed the other two that something was wrong. He is good, but not that good.
> 
> The fact that Berto claimed he did not see that Andy had a problem (total BS) tells you that he knows that he should have slowed.


This.

Also, Schleck lost time on that descent because he was going it alone and Conti was in a fast group. That wouldn't have been the case if Conti hadn't attacked and gained that initial time.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

DrRoebuck said:


> This.
> 
> Also, Schleck lost time on that descent because he was going it alone and Conti was in a fast group. That wouldn't have been the case if Conti hadn't attacked and gained that initial time.



Yes! and if my grandmother hasn't died, she would be alive.


----------



## 55x11

Blue CheeseHead said:


> The fact that Berto claimed he did not see that Andy had a problem (total BS) tells you that he knows that he should have slowed.


This is a very good point, possibly the best that illustrates the gray-area issue. 

It was one thing if Alberto said: "I saw him drop the chain, and I attacked - this is a race, and I believe mechanicals are part of the race. Anyone should be able to attack any time - feed zone, nature breaks, etc - it's a race dammit!" And then we could judge him on his beliefs, but at least he in his heart believes he did nothing wrong.

But clearly Alberto did know that what he was doing was wrong, which is why he claims he did not know what happened. To his credit, his apology and his subsequent behavior on Tourmalet repaired some of the damage. But the issue remains - to win as a great champion you also need to act like one - whether or not he wins by 10 seconds or 10 minutes does not change this fact. Having said that, his attack was perfectly within the rules, just like Sastre's attack when Sanchez crashed.


----------



## kiwisimon

stevesbike said:


> Contador is a damn formidable grand tour rider.


this. might add in bunch of other wins in many various races. really can't understand all the d-bag haters.


----------



## barhopper

MaddSkillz said:


> Does anyone here know why AS was in yellow?
> 
> It was because AC had a mechanical (broken spokes and whatnot) and AS did not wait for him. That's how the time gap was built putting AS in yellow.
> 
> But for some reason AC was supposed to wait for AS during his "mechanical?"
> 
> Can someone explain this to me?








AC was not wearing the yellow jersey when he broke down..........big difference.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

barhopper said:


> AC was not wearing the yellow jersey when he broke down..........big difference.


there is some yellow on his Astana Jersey.


----------



## Jalap-inya

31 pages.


----------



## yater

LostViking said:


> Well, thank God, Shabbasuraj has finally uttered the final word on this issue!
> 
> We are now all free to move on.:thumbsup:





> This message is hidden because shabbasuraj is on your ignore list.



........................................


----------



## AJL

stevesbike said:


> Might as well get used to him - likely to be the guy to beat LA's 7 wins...


That _might_ be a bridge too far, but I do expect him to have a large number of GT wins, unless he focusses only on the TdF.


----------



## matchmaker

So the Tour the France has been decided solely by this incident. That is safe to say now. Contador is an unworthy winner and a liar. He new AS had a mechanical and he attacked him. Whatever he said in interviews was lying. He saw it, he was behind. AS was attacking him and would have put time on him because after he got back on his bike he regained 35 seconds on Contador until he got to the top. In the descent AS lost a little more, this wouldn't have happened if he got on top before or with AC.

AC is a very big GT rider, but in this case a very small TdF winner. No stage wins, no brilliant attacks and getting the final advantage only because of unethical practices. If he was better than AS that day, he could have waited or made tempo without attacking and when AS was back on his bike he could have attacked then.

But anyway, Sleck also should have attacked farther from the finish in certain stages.

This will be a Tour with an Asterisk beside it forever, just like the Merckx/Ocaña one.


----------



## moostapha

55x11 said:


> Clearly Alberto did know that what he was doing was wrong, which is why he claims he did not know what happened.


+1. End of the argument as far as I'm concerned. 

Screw contador…I'm just wondering if Andy's going to get away with attacking in Paris….


----------



## matchmaker

What is worst about the whole situation is that actually Schleck had attacked and had already broken away from Contador. So from a situation where Schleck would have put time on Contador, you get the opposite by a mechanical and unworthy behavior. Even Ulrich was more of a man in not wanting to win this way.

Contador is an opportunist who will never be a great leader in the peloton because of his lack of understanding. He could have gifted the yellow jersey to teammates last year by not attacking, he didn't. He could have let Vino win other stages, yet he attacked. 

I am guessing that by next year he won't have a lot of friends or allies left in the peloton.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

Yes, he should gift the yellow to riders actively undermining him on his own team. You are so right...


----------



## LostViking

"Shades of the I love Lance/Hate Conti threads of the past.

Just replace "Lance" with "Andy" and there is no need for more threads like this.

Conti won. Time to move on to next year's TdF!" - LostViking

Sorry about the copy and paste posts but there are about four or five threads here that could have/should have been combined into one - this one.

Because that's really what this is all about - Lance is done and his fanboys can't deal - so they turn on Conti in a virtual feeding frenzy. Pretty sad really.

"Last Word"? Somehow, I doubt it.

Peace.


----------



## ultimobici

matchmaker said:


> So the Tour the France has been decided solely by this incident. That is safe to say now. Contador is an unworthy winner and a liar. He new AS had a mechanical and he attacked him. Whatever he said in interviews was lying. He saw it, he was behind. AS was attacking him and would have put time on him because after he got back on his bike he regained 35 seconds on Contador until he got to the top. In the descent AS lost a little more, this wouldn't have happened if he got on top before or with AC.


Gap was 15" at the summit. AS lost time on the descent and flat run in. But AC had already started to counter AS when AS fluffed his gear shift. Was he supposed to sit and wait for AS when SS & DM were riding full gas? Nothing had broken, there was no puncture, AS had cocked up a shift plain & simple.



> AC is a very big GT rider, but in this case a very small TdF winner. No stage wins, no brilliant attacks and getting the final advantage only because of unethical practices. If he was better than AS that day, he could have waited or made tempo without attacking and when AS was back on his bike he could have attacked then.


 AS & AC could have lost the tour there and then had he sat up. SS & DM would have ridden as hard as they could. 



> But anyway, Sleck also should have attacked farther from the finish in certain stages.


  


> This will be a Tour with an Asterisk beside it forever, just like the Merckx/Ocaña one.


Why has Merckx's win got an asterisk against it? He didn't attack Ocaña, far from it.


> _Merckx saw big resistance from Luis Ocaña, who in the eleventh stage beat Merckx by almost eight minutes. In the fourteenth stage, Ocaña fell, and had to give up._
> _Merckx became the new leader, but out of respect for Ocaña, he refused to wear the yellow jersey the next stage. Without Ocaña present, Merckx had no problems to defend his title, and won by almost ten minutes._





>


 Or are you referring to Ocaña's 1973 Tour due to Merckx's non participation?



> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sean/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->_With four wins, Merckx was approaching Jacques Anquetil's record of five, and the French public was becoming hostile. He had already been whistled at the finish in Vincennes after winning in 1970. For that reason, the Tour organisers asked Merckx not to start in 1973; instead he won the Vuelta a España, where he beat Luis Ocaña and Bernard Thévenet, and he won the Giro._


 
Although I do like Merckx's reaction to Ocaña's claim he would have won the 71 Tour




> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sean/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p {margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->In 1972, there was anticipation of a rematch between Merckx and Ocaña.The Spaniard insisted that Merckx would never have won but for the crash. Merckx replied:
> "Ocaña talks too much. I've won the Tour three times. He's never taken the yellow jersey to Paris. I've done the sums: in three rides, he's dropped out twice. With a record like that he should keep his voice down."
> 
> 
> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sean/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {colorurple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} p {margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> Merckx won the prologue at Angers but lost the yellow jersey when Cyrille Guimard won the following day at St-Brieuc. Guimard held the lead for seven stages, despite growing knee pain. Merckx won the stage at Luchon on day eight and with it the lead. He kept the yellow jersey to the end, winning the sprint competition and coming second to van Impe in the mountains. The battle with Ocaña fizzled out when the Spaniard crashed in the Pyrenees again, falling on the Aubisque, and dropping out with a lung infection on the 15th day.<o></o>
> With four wins, Merckx was approaching Jacques Anquetil's record of five, and the French public was becoming hostile. He had already been whistled at the finish in Vincennes after winning in 1970. For that reason, the Tour organisers asked Merckx not to start in 1973; instead he won the Vuelta a España, where he beat Luis Ocaña and Bernard Thévenet, and he won the Giro.


----------



## yater

In mountain bike racing, mechanicals are still a part of racing. If you're off the front and flat, or go OTB, you're fvcked (btw, you fix your own mechanicals and repair your own flats in mtb racing). If you miss a shift, that's your problem. Sack up, ladies.

I have a hard time believing that this "tradition" of waiting was intended. Why did the old-school tdf racers carry tires around their necks?


----------



## barhopper

otiebob said:


> Umm, Schleck should know better than to try to shift into the big ring under extreme load uphill. User error, not a mechanical. Moreover, he was in the act of attacking so they countered- its racing. Schleck already had the whole race stopped so he could catchup via Cancellara at the beginning of the tour. How many gimmes does he get? He can't stay on his bike and he can't shift. Do you think Hinault would have waited in a case like this? I doubt it seriously. Sure, Contador could have waited as could Menchov and Sanchez but they didn't but its not the sin so many people seem to think it is...





Yes it is. :yesnod:


----------



## LostViking

http://video.competitor.com/2010/07/cycling/velocenter-tdf-stage-19-extra/

Chaingate Exposed!


----------



## fab4

Solution to this problem. Go with Dura ace.


----------



## Salsa_Lover

LostViking said:


> http://video.competitor.com/2010/07/cycling/velocenter-tdf-stage-19-extra/
> 
> Chaingate Exposed!


Just confirms what we have been saying about.

Andy lost the tour because :

1. Attacked on the wrong gear, droped the chain
2. Lost control of himself, freaked out and was slow to set the chain back
3. Did a bad descent.

End of Argument.

hopefully next year he improves more his TTing and his Shifting and wins the tour !


----------



## ghost6

Salsa_Lover said:


> Just confirms what we have been saying about.
> 
> Andy lost the tour because :
> 
> 1. Attacked on the wrong gear, droped the chain
> 2. Lost control of himself, freaked out and was slow to set the chain back
> 3. Did a bad descent.
> 
> End of Argument.
> 
> hopefully next year he improves more his TTing and his Shifting and wins the tour !


Ever thought about changing your screen name to Contador_Lover?


----------



## jptaylorsg

LostViking said:


> http://video.competitor.com/2010/07/cycling/velocenter-tdf-stage-19-extra/
> 
> Chaingate Exposed!


No Holly! Damn it! 

Fail.


----------



## cpark

fab4 said:


> Solution to this problem. Go with Dura ace.


Or Campy?   
I just can't believe he was on 38/12.......


----------



## shabbasuraj

Di2 I heard Andy has an order coming in.


----------



## barhopper

PJay said:


> shifting problem. fair game.




....but AC didn't know what the problem was and attacked anyway. Sorry ...you lose.


----------



## Perico

Some of you people are amazing.

1) Literally everything has been covered fully in this thread, yet in the last three pages people are still spouting some of the nonsense that has been covered.

2) The Contador fans must turn everything into anti-Lance sentiment and are much further over the top then I have ever seen LA or any other riders fans.


----------



## Mr. Scary

Saxo Bank will do a 100km TTT and get back those 39 seconds!


----------



## senecacyclist

*schleck attacked contador*

I have to agree with what one of the "ryders" said: " You draw your sword and then drop it, you die."


----------



## ZoSoSwiM

32 pages and nearly 800 posts about this issue and in the end both Contador and Schleck were laughing things during the final stage. I guess all of our arguments are invalid.


----------



## Fredrico

*Let's just say,,,*



ZoSoSwiM said:


> 32 pages and nearly 800 posts about this issue and in the end both Contador and Schleck were laughing things during the final stage. I guess all of our arguments are invalid.


If I were a talented pro rider, I'd sure be nervous about riding in the USA! The fans might get insulted and knock me off my bike! :biggrin5:


----------



## Fredrico

senecacyclist said:


> I have to agree with what one of the "ryders" said: " You draw your sword and then drop it, you die."


That's riight. Hey, it was Schleck who dropped his damn chain, not Contador. Tough.

These Spanish champions are the strong silent types. Indurain, Delgado were the same way. Fans relate better to riders who show their imperfections, who show they're human, like us. Americans like Schleck because he's the kid next door, not so much Contador. Contador's too damn polite. :biggrin5:


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## shabbasuraj

When Schleck transfers to run his own team next year.... CONTY will again have the upper hand on him, and so will all the other GC men.


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## rydbyk

799...I thought Contador rode a conservative tour. I am sure that if he had not gone when AS lost his chain that he would have gone for a stage win the following day instead of gifting the stage to AS. AS did all the work...so...


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## rydbyk

800...next year should be great. I am wondering if AS works on his TT if he can take home the victory. Hope so:thumbsup:


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## pretender

I bet Schleck never thought about working on his timetrialing.


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## shabbasuraj

803 I think CONTY attacked on purpose, right at the exact moment the rigged chain he placed on SCHLECKY's bike malfunctioned.


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## LostViking

*Fixed!*



Perico said:


> Some of you people are amazing.
> 
> 1) Literally everything has been covered fully in this thread, yet in the last three pages people are still spouting some of the nonsense that has been covered.
> 
> 2) The Lance fans must turn everything into anti-Conti sentiment and are much further over the top then I have ever seen AC or any other riders fans.


1) Agree

2) Equally valid as your orig post - but those nasty Conti folks didn't post a "Lance Suk$" thread, did they?


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## shabbasuraj

805 this evening I went for a nice bike ride. Did 2 cols... and then I ate ice cream. Conty is a 3 time champion. Schleck? Champion attacker...


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## Salsa_Lover

did you drop your chain ? ( 806 )


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## Fredrico

Salsa_Lover said:


> did you drop your chain ? ( 806 )


Only skinny, whiny kids from Luxembourg do that. :nono: Real men make the shift! (807)


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## rydbyk

Contador is a pr!ck!!!!!!! 808 is the Hawaiian area code.


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## SlowMo

809 - Not sure what that means, but wanted to be part of it.


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## SlowMo

Now I'm officially 809. Wahoo! I surely win something?


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## shabbasuraj

Conty beat Schlecky. All GC faves order Di2. Happy 811


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## shabbasuraj

Salsa_Lover said:


> did you drop your chain ? ( 806 )


812 No. But then again, I know how to shift properly. Thanks for asking.


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## yater

813?........



> shabbasuraj
> This message is hidden because shabbasuraj is on your ignore list.


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## LostViking

This thread is soooo troll ready - but I will resist!

errrrr 814?

Yater: Funny quote! I guess you and The Shab don't see eye-to-eye.


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## shabbasuraj

Is it true schlecky was on a SRAM compact crank? That is what caused his error in shifting. 815


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## LostViking

SRAM seems to believe it wasn't user error or a mechanical failure - just a bad combo of circumstances. 

816?


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## pretender

LostViking said:


> Yater: Funny quote! I guess you and The Shab don't see eye-to-eye.


Yater has a boner for shabbasuraj. It's about the fifth time he's made a point of posting that he's ignoring him.


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## Salsa_Lover

pretender said:


> Yater has a boner for shabbasuraj. It's about the fifth time he's made a point of posting that he's ignoring him.


how can he know he's posting when he is ignoring him ? 818

and yes SHRAM sucks chain


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## shabbasuraj

I do question if the SRAM rear derailleur design has much to do with the chain suck on the cog/casette, as discussed on velonews, when the chain drops.

Watching the vid a few times, I am still boggled to how long it took schleck to jump off grab the chain, and get going again.

(yes i know, he was on a col, and in the heat of the race, but I think those circumstances would simply magnify the relative speed at which anyone would try to fix their chain)

819 just sayin...


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## moostapha

shabbasuraj said:


> (yes i know, he was on a col, and in the heat of the race, but I think those circumstances would simply magnify the relative speed at which anyone would try to fix their chain)


I'm sure it did…that's why it took so long. IME, when something goes wrong during a competition, the only way to fix it quickly is to deliberately move slowly.


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