# Would you buy a Ceramic Bottom Bracket



## sbindra (Oct 18, 2004)

Is spending the extra money on a ceramic bottom bracket worth it? I am not even talking about the reduction in friction - rather from a durability standpoint. When I had trouble with my Gigapipe BB, several shops told me that you only get 6,000 or 8,000 miles out of external bottom bracket cups and since they are entirely unserviceable, you replace when worn. For me that means replacing the BB every year. Ceramic BB is supposedly 10 times as durable as a regular BB but only 3 or 4 times the cost. If I accept the premise that I will need to replace my BB every year, is not more economical to install a ceramic BB (plus I get the benefits of the smoother rotation)?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*doubtful...*

Where'd you get the 10 times more durable idea from? Although the balls may be ultra durable ceramic, the races aren't. What usually trashes a BB in only 6-8,000 miles is the intrusion of dirt and water. Ceramic might help some, but it's not a cure for that problem. A major overhaul 1-2 times per season might help, but it's a fair amount of work, removing the seals, using a special spray degreaser to flush out the old grease and then repack the bearings.

Here's some info on replacement outboard bearings.

http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id101.html


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

"Would you buy a Ceramic Bottom Bracket?"

Why on Earth would I do that?


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## Dicky dirtrider (Dec 9, 2006)

I've though about it but have been waiting to see how they hold up for others. After going over 15,000 miles with an Octalink cartridge BB in a Klein I went through a set of D/A outboard cups in about 5000 miles on my OCLV. In order for long bearing life with outboard cups the bottom bracket shell threads must be perfectly concentric and parallel. There was clear coat built up on the shell so I had to have the shell faced.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Nah. If it were the same price, or a $20 upcharge, I might try it out, but the price is silly.

Wait.

I would, if I were a pursuiter on a velodrome.


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## monkeybullit (Sep 18, 2006)

I have one and the difference is noticeable between the BB with ceramic bearings and the BB with standard bearings. The cranks just spin easier. I put over 6,000 miles on one last year in all types of weather and it's still as silky smooth as the day I installed it. I did keep it clean and used ceramic lube. If you can justify the extra money, I say go for it.


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## sbindra (Oct 18, 2004)

I presume that the FSA Ceramic BB is compatible with the Dura Ace and the Shimano compact crank (FC-700).


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Silky smooth*



monkeybullit said:


> I have one and the difference is noticeable between the BB with ceramic bearings and the BB with standard bearings. The cranks just spin easier. I put over 6,000 miles on one last year in all types of weather and it's still as silky smooth as the day I installed it. I did keep it clean and used ceramic lube. If you can justify the extra money, I say go for it.


Until I bungled the install and cracked the right cup flange, my Campy Record BB was still silky smooth and low friction after 60,000 miles. The most miles I have put on a steel bearing BB was 90K miles (still silky smooth) - I sold it and that bike is still in service, 19 years later. The "advantage" of ceramic bearings is lost on this Luddite


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> Until I bungled the install and cracked the right cup flange, my Campy Record BB was still silky smooth and low friction after 60,000 miles. The most miles I have put on a steel bearing BB was 90K miles (still silky smooth) - I sold it and that bike is still in service, 19 years later. The "advantage" of ceramic bearings is lost on this Luddite



So why exactly did you respond to this thread then?  

If you have the dough and think it will make a performance difference, then by all means, but a ceramic BB. Even if it's a mental difference, that's enough for most people. 
Do you think all of these folks buying $10,000 bikes with $2000 wheels are racing them at a top level. It's an exercise in vanity and purchasing power for most of us. My $6000 Ridley is lost on me...but I do love the way it looks and rides. It's no faster than my $2500 race bike...

I blow up a BB at around 12-18 months. I don't want to spend the cash when the 3-5% performance increase won't make me competitive in Pro 1-2 fields. 

Take care of your equipment, train harder and save $200+ dollars...


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## sbindra (Oct 18, 2004)

backinthesaddle said:


> I blow up a BB at around 12-18 months. I don't want to spend the cash when the 3-5% performance increase won't make me competitive in Pro 1-2 fields.


That is exactly the question I was asking with the durability. If I told you that the Ceramic BB would last you 3 to 4 years and result in a 3-5% performance increase, doesn't that make it worth it. Operationally the cost is the same with improved performance.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

sbindra said:


> That is exactly the question I was asking with the durability. If I told you that the Ceramic BB would last you 3 to 4 years and result in a 3-5% performance increase, doesn't that make it worth it. Operationally the cost is the same with improved performance.


If I KNEW a ceramic BB would last 3 or 4 years, with 7-8k per year of both training and racing on it, I would buy one today. The biggest complaint has been the life of the unit itself. The ones I've seen have lasted about 7500 miles (12 months). That isn't a high cost/benefit ratio for me, especially when I can get a D/A bb for $40.


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## Jim Nazium (Feb 3, 2004)

backinthesaddle said:


> So why exactly did you respond to this thread then?
> Take care of your equipment, train harder and save $200+ dollars...


KI was ansewring the question posed by the OP. His answer is no.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

sbindra said:


> That is exactly the question I was asking with the durability. If I told you that the Ceramic BB would last you 3 to 4 years and result in a 3-5% performance increase, doesn't that make it worth it. Operationally the cost is the same with improved performance.


If there was a 3-5% performance increase, then sure... but it is really less than a 10th of that. And why would you expect them to last longer? Just because the seller said so? The races are still steel, and those hard ceramic balls grinding the dirt into the races will not help *them* last. If you want your bearings to last, then you need good seals and/or regular maintanence.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Jim Nazium said:


> KI was ansewring the question posed by the OP. His answer is no.


No he wasn't... He never mentioned anything about ceramic BBs. He only talked about his experience with Campy crap.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

If the quest is for return of investment and you use a square taper, buy a Phil Wood. The initial outlay for a stainless version is about $125, but you can have it rebuilt with new bearings for $35. I have had this done once so far and it was pretty much a new bottom bracket when they sent it back. PW also sells ceramic bearings for wheels so maybe a bottom bracket isn't that far away.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Is sublety lost?*



backinthesaddle said:


> No he wasn't... He never mentioned anything about ceramic BBs. He only talked about his experience with Campy crap.


Not to make it too plain, but my point was that my experience with steel ball bearings was such that I could not see where ceramics would be an improvement, since I have consistently gotten well over 50K miles from BBs. BTW, if you are trashing a BB every 12 months, there's something wrong (BB facing?). Just saying.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Kerry Irons said:


> Not to make it too plain, but my point was that my experience with steel ball bearings was such that I could not see where ceramics would be an improvement, since I have consistently gotten well over 50K miles from BBs. BTW, if you are trashing a BB every 12 months, there's something wrong (BB facing?). Just saying.


 

Oh Kerry, you do **know** you have a near cult following o'er in what once was NCD (now Teh Loungé), do you not?


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> Not to make it too plain, but my point was that my experience with steel ball bearings was such that I could not see where ceramics would be an improvement, since I have consistently gotten well over 50K miles from BBs. BTW, if you are trashing a BB every 12 months, there's something wrong (BB facing?). Just saying.


No, it's called riding and racing in all conditions and replacing consummable parts instead of spending valuable time licking them to make them operational again. Of course, at a constant 16 mph, a BB will last for 50k miles. Under hard use, not so much...

All BBs on all of my bikes (as well as those I work on) are faced and chased before the cups go in.
Revel in your self-imposed status as a luddite. You never mentioned ceramics, period. Don't back-pedal or speak to things of which you have zero knowledge. Outboard bearing Shimano BBs don't last. I have replaced more of them in the past two years than I care to remember. It has nothing to do with facing. They are poorly designed and prone to failure. The plastic sleeve moves and slowly kills the bearings.
The women in our group have blown up their Shimano BBs... ! If a 120 pound woman kills a BB in 6000 miles, it's not a facing issue...it's a design problem.


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## quattrotom (Jul 15, 2006)

C-40 hit the nail on the head. 
So maybe the ceramic BBs will last 10x longer - but if the races are still steel they will suffer the same fate as steel races with steel BBs. If you get dirt in there and the ceramic BBs don't wear, something has to wear. My educated guess would be that the seals and alignment are the determining factor in bearing life. 

I'd hold out for magnetic BB designs.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

I've had one. Is a ceramic bottom bracket smoother? Yes. Does it last longer? Don't know since I sold it when I bought my Clavicula crankset which has the sweetest feeling bearings I have ever ridden. Is there a performance gain? I don't really think so but it was very smooth. Would I puchase one again? Sure when I need to replace the bearings in my Clav's. I guess if riding your bicycle was your paycheck you want every little advantage you can get but getting one for the average cyclist is like picking Record over Chrous. From a functional and component life standpoint there is no real advantage but Record is sure nice to own.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

*No, I wouldn't*

I don't believe the claims made for improvement in either performance or longevity, for the reasons others have described. 

Even if I was willing to ignore those uncomfortable (for the marketers) reasons, I still wouldn't buy one. The BB's I use (and likely most of us here) use bearings in industry-standard sizes. It is a simple enough matter to order the right thing from an industrial supply house - spending FAR less money and getting higher quality in the process. 

It requires a few tools and a bit of care to do this properly, but I live in the rust belt. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting an out-of-work machinist with a complete shop in his basement.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Lol*



backinthesaddle said:


> ..... Campy crap.


Since when?

I don't choose to use the stuff but I have never seen anything but top quality stuff with the Campy name on it- IMHO if anything they have a tendency to overbuild.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

backinthesaddle said:


> Campy crap.


This from a guy who's replacing his DA bottom bracket every year. LOL! :lol:


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## daneil (Jun 25, 2002)

backinthesaddle said:


> No, it's called riding and racing in all conditions and replacing consummable parts instead of spending valuable time licking them to make them operational again. Of course, at a constant 16 mph, a BB will last for 50k miles. Under hard use, not so much...
> 
> All BBs on all of my bikes (as well as those I work on) are faced and chased before the cups go in.
> Revel in your self-imposed status as a luddite. You never mentioned ceramics, period. Don't back-pedal or speak to things of which you have zero knowledge. Outboard bearing Shimano BBs don't last. I have replaced more of them in the past two years than I care to remember. It has nothing to do with facing. They are poorly designed and prone to failure. The plastic sleeve moves and slowly kills the bearings.
> The women in our group have blown up their Shimano BBs... ! If a 120 pound woman kills a BB in 6000 miles, it's not a facing issue...it's a design problem.


Now seriously why are you going after Kerry like this? It's just bad form. We're like a big (albeit dysfunctional) family here and although we might squabble from time to time we don't generally go after our own. 

btw:










Oh and to keep the thread on topic. No I wouldn't put that much $ into a bb. Then again I'm still running an Octalink bb and crank. I don't really see the need for external to begin with.


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## JayTee (Feb 3, 2004)

Somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed today, and it wasn't KerryI.


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## daneil (Jun 25, 2002)

JayTee said:


> Somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed today, and it wasn't KerryI.


Well to be honest i'd be upset if I wrecked my bb once a year or more.


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## JayTee (Feb 3, 2004)

daneil said:


> Well to be honest i'd be upset if I wrecked my bb once a year or more.


Good point!

:idea:


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## arvinlynes (Jan 29, 2007)

I replaced my Dura Ace bb bearings with ceramics and I couldn't believe the difference in feel. I could never go back to standard bearings. Durability aside, I like what my legs are feeling. I am used to it now, but when I first installed the bearings, I thought something was wrong because the pedals turned over that much more easily. You can do it far more cheaply than the $200 charged by FSA, but FSA argues that their bearing quality is worth the price. I bought ABI ceramic hybrid bearings and I am satisfied.


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## HammerTime-TheOriginal (Mar 29, 2006)

arvinlynes said:


> I replaced my Dura Ace bb bearings with ceramics and I couldn't believe the difference in feel. I could never go back to standard bearings. Durability aside, I like what my legs are feeling. I am used to it now, but when I first installed the bearings, I thought something was wrong because the pedals turned over that much more easily. You can do it far more cheaply than the $200 charged by FSA, but FSA argues that their bearing quality is worth the price. I bought ABI ceramic hybrid bearings and I am satisfied.


Which model DA crank did you put the ceramic bearings in? Which ceramic bearings did you put in, and what was involved in the installation?


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## ampastoral (Oct 3, 2005)

sort of on/off topic...velo news tested a bunch of bottom brackets. under minimal load (so values are probably a bit on the low side) ceramic bearings may save you as much as .5 watts in maintaining a steady speed....that's not much ime...


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## Howzitbroke (Jun 1, 2005)

Do they make one in JIS or Campy square taper? That's my answer. There have not been any true improvements since the cartridge BB. Octalink and Isis, nope, exo and outboard, nope. I am with Kerry, and the luddite. This BB arms race is just marketing. Nothing more. I know the stiffness is better guys will chime in but on a bike the any given quality wheelset and frame flex more than than any comparable crankset and bb when riding the bike. Now lab conditions are arguable, but I hate riding in lab conditions with all the monkeys and mice in mazes and needles. 

Tom Boonen won Paris Roubaix 05 on Record alu cranks and a Record bb with balls of steel. I think balls of steel are key.


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## fiddledoc (May 28, 2003)

*Not an engineer, but...*

Sorry to kind of hijack the thread--and maybe this has been covered--but would an external bearing actually promote more frame/bb shell flexing than internal? Would the rider have that much more leverage to flex the frame?

BTW--my UN73 BB cost $28. It's probably smoother and longer lasting than anything that came after it.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Juanmoretime said:


> From a functional and component life standpoint there is no real advantage but Record is sure nice to own.


Bingo...Almost every bike I own is Dura Ace equipped. Does it make me faster? Nope. Does it work better? Maybe but I seriously doubt it. But it sure is nice to own.......


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## jplain (Apr 14, 2006)

I'll throw in some evidence in favor of the luddites here. Back in the day (late 80s) I had a Campy Record BB in my steel marinoni and when properly adjusted that thing would spin forever with just a little push. Same thing with those Record hubs. And maintenance really wasn't so bad, maybe once or twice a year (riding around 8000 or so miles) I'd need to rebuild the hubs, the BB every year or so. Sure, scrupulously cleaning out the races and getting it adjusted just so was somewhat more time consuming than swapping out a cartridge BB, but the performance was arguably better. If one objectively looks at all the advances in road cycling over the past 30 years, bearings are arguably the one area where little if any progress has been made. Clearly integrated shifting sytems, index shifting, brakes, frames, aero wheels, etc. are a huge improvement. 

My point is that I wouldn't invest a lot of money in a ceramic BB system now when soon you should be able to get BBs with user servicable ceramic bearings that are standard industry sized so you can get them at a fraction of the cost of these propriotory sizes. I mean when people talk about stiffness and strength and all that with fancy new BBs just remember guys like eddy merkcx didn't seem to be breaking a lot of spindles with the old record BB. Better shifting, lighter bikes, faster wheels are all considerable performance advantages whereas the improvement going to the latest and greatest BB is negligible.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

fiddledoc said:


> Would the rider have that much more leverage to flex the frame?


Shouldn't matter. The moment for lateral flexing of the frame depends on how far the force is applied from the centerline... which would be how far out the pedals are. I think the Q factors on the new designs are the same as the old ones.


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## arvinlynes (Jan 29, 2007)

I have the 7800 crankset and BB (the new 10spd stuff). I found guys on Ebay selling bottom brackets with Enduro ceramic hybrid bearings installed for under $100.


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## mytorelli (Dec 19, 2004)

I would.. if I got ceramic pulleys, and hubs, and what ever else I could get ceramic

The reason I say this is because I wouldn't notice the difference if just getting a ceramic BB, unless maybe I count every watt savings I put out.

Same goes for weight, I have mavic cosmos wheels, and was thinking about getting the mavic elites, but I didn't because the difference in weight was under 100 grams, and I wouldn't feel the difference.... you know what I mean?

But If i got all ceramic stuff, then I might feel a difference. Also I've heard ceramic stuff lasts longer, while this may be true, they have to be kept cleen or something like that... there's a downside but I don't remember what, enought to make me not get ceramic.... Maybe I'll get it on my TT bike


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## the pup (Apr 19, 2004)

My wife loves her ceramic bb and pulley's that I got for her a couple of weeks ago. I couldn't believe the difference it made to her Dura Ace. She races Cat 1, so it was money well spent. Unfortunately I cannot find anything ceramic to fit my Force cranks....cuz it's worth it.
imho


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## arvinlynes (Jan 29, 2007)

*I found ceramic bearings for Sram*

There's a seller that goes by "CPBikes" on Ebay who sells the Sram GXP bottom bracket with ceramic bearings installed. I think he lists them as Truvativ (the manufacturer of Sram's crankset) bottom brackets. Check it out. I got mine and installed it yesterday. It's a night and day difference.


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## Dave_Stohler (Jan 22, 2004)

*From an engineering standpoint....*

...ceramic bearings are wonderful for high-speed/high-heat situations such as jet engines, turbochargers, and other such extreme uses. They make absolutely zero sense on a bike. It's just another way of selling overpriced crap to the poseurs.


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

Dave_Stohler said:


> ...ceramic bearings are wonderful for high-speed/high-heat situations such as jet engines, turbochargers, and other such extreme uses. They make absolutely zero sense on a bike. It's just another way of selling overpriced crap to the poseurs.


This may be the first time I actually agree with Dave. :blush2:   

And people are just demostrating how little they know when they talk about how easy there version XYZ crank spins (when they don't have a load on it and the chain is off). :mad2:


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## the pup (Apr 19, 2004)

Oh yeah, now I remember why I don't bother with this forum anymore...I guess actual application doesn't quite compare with someone's theory 
good luck with that


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

the pup said:


> Oh yeah, now I remember why I don't bother with this forum anymore...I guess actual application doesn't quite compare with someone's theory
> good luck with that


I think what you mean is, "I guess marketing influenced preconception doesn't quite compare with someone's theory."

It is not a theory that the friction in regular steel bicycle bearings is a very, very small fraction of the total drag. It is small enough to be considered relatively insignificant in influencing performance. A reduction bearing resistance is therefore even less significant - regardless of how much you want it to make a difference.


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## jaybrown (Aug 12, 2004)

Riding harder and faster for longer periods of time is more mental then anything else, so If you think ceramic bearings,carbone parts,zip 404's make you faster then you will be faster. Bottom line.. 

I'm still a bit unclear about the real answer to the original question though. Do ceramic bearings last longer then steel? 

Who really cares about faster, slower better because you can debate about that forever. I just want stronger legs and bigger lungs...lol


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## aks (Feb 18, 2007)

I've never seen such an uproar over a single post. Ceramic bearings today are like carbon was when it first came out years ago. I remember saying, "no way would I run a carbon fork, or a carbon wheelset or crank". Now everyone has them and uses them and swears by them. Ceramic bearings are here to stay. Eventually everyone will have them, and when I say everyone I mean Campy, Shimano, etc. Once the big boys get involved then the prices will get better. FSA, Ceramic Speed and so forth can charge whatever because they have whats hot. 

As for ceramics lasting longer or being faster I will say this. Go into your LBS and if they have it, take any crankset that has a normal BB installed. Get a crankset with the similar crankset but a BB with ceramics and without the chain on, spin both sets. Its amazing how much longer the crankset with ceramics will go. That being said if you are going to use a ceramic BB, you better get ceramic pulleys and put ceramics in your hubs. This way the whole drivetrain can work together instead of your ceramic BB being held back by regular steel bearings. Am I making sense?? 

Go get ceramics, spend the extra money now because I say in the next 2-3 years all of your buddies will have them too and you can then say....."I told you to get them you dumb*****"  LOL


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

aks said:


> Am I making sense??


No.

Spinning a bearing with no load tells you how tight the seals are. Ceramic bearings are hot because they are hyped... lots of people making bogus claims. If people knew how much of a benefit there really was there would be a lot fewer of them sold. 


Maybe they will be on all the top bikes in a couple of years. Does make them better... or does it just mean that marketing prevailed?

Hey, I'll buy them when the price comes down to about double what steel balls are now.


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## dwwheels (Feb 28, 2007)

I won't buy the ceramic ball bearings until they make the BB clear like a fish bowl so I can show them off to all of my friends. Just ride and stop posing for the 12 year old kids on your street.


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## fiddledoc (May 28, 2003)

*My beef with Leonard Zinn*



ampastoral said:


> sort of on/off topic...velo news tested a bunch of bottom brackets. under minimal load (so values are probably a bit on the low side) ceramic bearings may save you as much as .5 watts in maintaining a steady speed....that's not much ime...


I have no doubt that Leonard Zinn et al at Velo News are smart, experienced guys. However, I have to say that the test they ran is worse than unscientific and would never pass muster in a peer-reviewed situation. I just do not see how they can extrapolate results from a free-spin situation to real-world pedalling forces. If it were true, it would also be incumbent on them to show the math.

How many of us have ridden happily for miles on a bike, and then checked the BB only to find it had seized? The forces that the cyclist has to overcome to move the bike forward--total mass, air resistance, rolling friction, and friction from other parts of the drivetrain--are vastly more than the drag from correctly adjusted and lubed bearings.

Look, I could scream in your ear and you'd notice it. But if I did it next to a spooled-up jet engine, you look at me and mouth "whaat?" It's the same situation.

Ok, I'm not a mechanical engineer. But I can see through what is clearly armchair science. Zinn has done it before--look for his "experiment" on crank length where he uses himself and 2 buddies to reach a conclusion. Hardly a big sample.

At least (un)Intelligent Design is ludicrous enough so that people can see right through it. I just wish a publication like Velo News would refrain from trying to do science.

Unfortunately, a great deal of science by real scientists is based on shoddy studies.
Where is Michael Schermer (Skeptic Magazine) when you need him?

And by the way, I have no doubt that a large number of people who disparage the idea of ceramic bearings as a waste of money have spent megabucks on carbon seatposts, handlebars, or, most laughable of all, carbon bottle cages.

Ha!


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