# Floyd Tells All?



## Mootsie

Cyclingnews says it has a letter from a Floyd Landis that needs some verifying, but it supposedly reveals drug use in cycling up to his tour victory. Stay tuned.


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## 3rensho

Why a letter? There's money in the dirt Landis would have on former team members and other pros in general. Why not cash in? I've been waiting for Floyd to get fed-up with his situation and spill. Love it if now is the time. 

I know, Floyd's a pariah and has screwed the pooch on his career. That said, it disgusts me that other riders like Valverde have been given a free pass by their respective 'ADA' while this dude is considered to be the poster child for cheating.


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## 4Peaks

About to become a bigger story .........

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703691804575255410855321120.html?mod=rss_whats_news_us


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## alexb618

lance checks bank account...


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## burgrat

What is Landis' relationship with Zabriskie? Weren't they best friends before? Too bad he's leading ToC when this dropped


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## Guinness2009

"detailed journals"

$90,000 per year ...........


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=5203604&type=story


just gets better and better ...............


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## CHL

Pathetic display by someone that cycling should never welcome back. I'm not pissed that he's spilling the beans on the other cheats. However, I'm pretty pissed that he had the audacity to discredit the individuals that revealed his practices. 

Even more aggregious, he fooled a great deal of his fans (present company included) to believe in his innocence. Hell, we're only fans! What about his close friends, family and associates. They should have even stronger grievances against Floyd.

CHL

P.S. $90,000/year on doping and no truly great results. Lost savings, destroyed marriage, betrayal of friends/family. What did Gianni Savio say bout Ricco? Something of a truly gifted idiot!!


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## Sojourneyman

> However, Landis said he finally decided to come forward because he was suffering psychologically and emotionally from years of deceit, and because he has become a cycling pariah with little to no chance of ever riding for an elite team again. Prior to speaking with ESPN.com, he said he made his most difficult phone call -- to his mother in Pennsylvania to tell her the truth.
> 
> 
> "I want to clear my conscience," Landis said. "I don't want to be part of the problem any more."


That saddens me.


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## sokudo

Landis started sending emails after the Tour of Gila. 
Who pissed in his cheerios? Lance? Bruneel? Dave Z.? Levi?
Or was that just a sight of these guys riding for better teams that short-circuited Landis?

BMC put away Ballan for nothing at the first hint of rumours. What will they do with Hincapie now? With Rihs? Will they shut down the team?

How many jobs will be lost due to Landis revelations? Lemond should be proud.


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## il sogno

sokudo said:


> How many jobs will be lost due to Landis revelations?


Their house of cards is built on a bunch of dopers and cheaters. Thems the breaks.


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## philippec

*you heard it here first! Floyd, be prepared to be Lemond-ised*

I am going out on a limb (ok, not really) and will predict that the fanbois will soon Lemondise Floyd. Ouch, how does the saying go "don't piss in the wind or be prepared to ...?"

Oh, and some recalcitrant Floyd-boys will of course blame the French anti-doping lab and their shoddy work for forcing Floyd to turn against his old team-mates!

here we go again.....


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## CHL

He's not depressed about the lying and the cheating. By his own admission, he confessed of organized doping for a prolonged sustained period. Why didn't the cheating/lying bother his conscience then? If true that there was organized doping within the team, then ban the director sportif as well. 

He's depressed about being caught and having to suffer the consequences. If I had lost my once high paying job, savings, family, friends and any sense of self worth/decency, I would be on the verge of suicide as well.

Seems like a pre-emptive move for a book deal or lucrative story/interview.

CHL


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## sokudo

il sogno said:


> Their house of cards is built on a bunch of dopers and cheaters. Thems the breaks.


Bike mechanics? Domestiques? The next generation who would not have american teams to join? Riders at all cat levels who will have less races left? Bike manufacturers who instead of Armstrong effect will have to survive through an anti-cycling draught like in Germany? Do you think Amgen ToC will survive loss of sponsorship? Finally, all the money that Livestrong raises and all the good work that it does?

Those dopers and cheaters are quite well off already, thank you.


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## Nimitz

> He added that he has no documentation for many of the claims he is making about other riders or officials, and that it will be his word against theirs.


so its all hearsay...be it true or not I don't see this being as big of a deal as everyone is making it?

Chad


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## cyclesport45

What he is saying makes more sense than not. This is not the house of cards coming down. Not yet... But, we will have to stay tuned.


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## Dwaynebarry

sokudo said:


> Or was that just a sight of these guys riding for better teams that short-circuited Landis?


Or he found out the game is still being played the same as always.


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## tricycletalent

3rensho said:


> Why a letter? There's money in the dirt Landis would have on former team members and other pros in general. Why not cash in? I've been waiting for Floyd to get fed-up with his situation and spill. Love it if now is the time.
> 
> I know, Floyd's a pariah and has screwed the pooch on his career. That said, it disgusts me that other riders like Valverde have been given a free pass by their respective 'ADA' while this dude is considered to be the poster child for cheating.


+2 :thumbsup: 

Cycling world is a hypocritical world. 

When you are caught, and the B-sample turns out positive, you lose a lot of money (2 years income) , have to suck up all the crap that is coughed up about you in the media, and might have problems finding another team, unless you manage to manipulate public image enough to be classified as repenting sinner. (Some exceptions exist, like Vino). 

From a personality perspective, perhaps a decent explanation is that Floyd is an insecure person, whose need for external validation of having done nothing wrong, and being subjected to injustice, surpassed the cool logic needed to get back in the game. And when he now neither managed to get off the hook, nor really back to being a tour contender, his resent has grown, and the threshold for getting even is lowered.


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## MG537

Guinness2009 said:


> "detailed journals"
> $90,000 per year ...........
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=5203604&type=story
> just gets better and better ...............


This from the article:


> "I don't feel guilty at all about having doped," Landis told ESPN.com. "I did what I did because that's what we [cyclists] did and it was a choice I had to make after 10 years or 12 years of hard work to get there; and that was a decision I had to make to make the next step. My choices were, do it and see if I can win, or don't do it and I tell people I just don't want to do that, and I decided to do it."


Much better explanation than, "pressure got me", "I intended to dope", "I apologize to my family/friends"........


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## T-Doc

the timing is unbelievable...


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## Mike T.

sokudo said:


> Lemond should be proud.


And who's to say he rode clean? Him? Hahahahahah. Lemond is a big hypocrite. At least guys like Kelly & Roche just keep their mouth's shut on the subject.

Edit - and Hinault. Naww, he didn't dope did he?


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## Topher

This actually makes me feel a little better about Floyd, regardless of his personal motivations, he is doing the right thing. Cycling has doping issues (as do all elite endurance sports) and if you consider doping to be a problem, the only way real progress is going to be made is if some people break the code of silence and tell all. Sure it will be painful and difficult for fans, the sport, and riders/teams, but it will be worth it if the end result is a cleaner sport with a strong anti-doping culture.


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## Len J

I'm shocked, I tell you shocked! Anyone suprised by these revelations has had their head in the sand.

Len


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## Mootsie

It makes you wonder about _anyone_ associated with Lance. Like someone who is winning/dominating every stage right now in the Olympia's Tour or who won the crit at Gila. Now that would be truly sad. I hope _he_ is doing the right thing.


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## nate

Nimitz said:


> so its all hearsay...be it true or not I don't see this being as big of a deal as everyone is making it?
> 
> Chad


It is not hearsay if Landis has first-hand knowledge. Hearsay would be if you then went and tried to implicate someone based on what Landis said, or if Landis is only accusing the others based on what someone else told Landis. So you could say that the WSJ's account is hearsay.


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## den bakker

Len J said:


> I'm shocked, I tell you shocked! Anyone suprised by these revelations has had their head in the sand.
> 
> Len


Maybe the surprise is that the story broke and from one sufficiently high up in the postal hierarchy, not that there is a story.


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## ZoSoSwiM

This really makes me sad.. Perfect timing if he wanted to cause chaos.. It'll be interesting to see the flames as they spread.


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## jlandry

Guinness2009 said:


> "detailed journals"
> 
> $90,000 per year ...........
> 
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=5203604&type=story
> 
> 
> just gets better and better ...............



The ESPN article seems like an April 1st hoax. 

Can't wait for more info...(gets popcorn)


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## Einstruzende

Not surprised in the least. Be interesting to dig up all those old threads where a lot of us were called idiots for not believing Landis after he was busted.

At any rate, I would suspect that there will be a lot of discrediting going on, lawsuits filed, and the old postal boys will keep riding.


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## Bridgey

Oh I'm loving this. I'd pay him a million dollars (if I had it) just to see Armstrong exposed as a fraud and everyone believe it. He is now becoming a hero in my eyes. I always have believed in forgiveness. I don't care that he has doped. I'm just happy his finally admitting to it and bringing some other frauds down with him.


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## den bakker

Einstruzende said:


> Not surprised in the least. Be interesting to dig up all those old threads where a lot of us were called idiots for not believing Landis after he was busted.


of course the irony is that now we assume he is telling the truth


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## ZoSoSwiM

Bridgey said:


> Oh I'm loving this. I'd pay him a million dollars (if I had it) just to see Armstrong exposed as a fraud and everyone believe it. He is now becoming a hero in my eyes. I always have believed in forgiveness. I don't care that he has doped. I'm just happy his finally admitting to it and bringing some other frauds down with him.



This will not help cycling. I support Lance and think everything he has done is great. Tearing him down will hurt a lot more than it will help.

How can it be cheating if everyone is doing it?

The fall out from this could significantly change our sport..


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## Dwaynebarry

den bakker said:


> of course the irony is that now we assume he is telling the truth


If the detailed journals exist they will corroborate his claims. Plus he seems to be naming everyone under the sun, so chances are someone else will come clean. He's also made specific claims that may force people (e.g. Armstrong's ex-wife) to give accounts under oath in the event of lawsuits or criminal charges.


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## StillRiding

Landis either lied when he denied doping or is lying now. He's a proven liar. What possible credibility can he ever have?

His recent claims may well be true, but his coming forth now isn't going to change anything except the way the few people that believed in him feel.


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## 3rensho

The NYT article here implies that Landis has been in contact with the Feds regarding elements of doping in cycling. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/sports/cycling/21landis.html?hp

(excerpt) 
Federal authorities have spoken with Landis in recent weeks about the information in the e-mail, according to two people briefed on the matter.

Landis, who spent nearly two years and reportedly more than $2 million fighting the charges against him, has agreed to cooperate with the authorities and provide them with the same information he has provided anti-doping and cycling officials. The authorities are interested in whatever information Landis has about distributors of banned substances and new methods of doping being used by athletes.

Over the past month, Landis also has been cooperating with officials from the United States Anti-Doping Agency, providing them with details about the other cyclists and Armstrong, the people briefed on the matter said.

Jeff Novitzky, federal agent who spearheaded the investigation into the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative steroids case, is involved in the investigation. It is not clear whether Landis has contacted him via e-mail or telephone. 


If that is the case, I'd guess the Feds explained the 'don't bullsh*t us' policy that they seem to have about people who cooperate with them. Lance is gonna need one seriously clever tweet to dodge the spew from this. Love to see Hamilton come out and corroborate FL's statements. Not likely, but it'd add to the pending intrigue.


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## Coolhand

StillRiding said:


> Landis either lied when he denied doping or is lying now. He's a proven liar. What possible credibility can he ever have?
> 
> His recent claims may well be true, but his coming forth now isn't going to change anything except the way the few people that believed in him feel.


Why can't it be both? Seems to match his "character" perfectly.


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## godot

ZoSoSwiM said:


> How can it be cheating if everyone is doing it?
> 
> The fall out from this could significantly change our sport..


Don't know if your "How can it be cheating if everyone is doing it?" statement was tongue in cheek or not. Assuming you were serious. If there are rules against it, and one break those rules, it's cheating. It doesn't matter how many others are complicit. If you weren't serious, I apologize.

I'm dubious that this change much in the sport as it's all he said/she said, there's no evidence. Unless/until someone comes forward with hard evidence of systematic doping nothing is going to change. The teams have been at this a long long time and have the standard defense lined up and ready to go. Disparage the person that spoke up, cast a shadow of a doubt on the allegations, and never speak of the matter again.

All this is going to do is fire up the LA did he, didn't he debate, and the is Landis a D-bag debate.

My favorite quote from the article - "how transfusions were now necessary due to the inconvenience of the new test"

BTW - I agree with philippec that Floyd is about to get the LeMond treatment


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## desmo13

right idea, wrong execution.

I am saddened, but love the fact he admitted.

I cannot wait for him to explain to the agencies how the riders can beat the test.

But naming names...doesn't sit well with me. that gives it this hollywood tell all spin, like he is desperately trying to get some sort of attention back on him. Also, if as he says, he is doing this to clear HIS conscience, what does accusing Lance, Levi, George and Z have to do with HIS conscience.

Why would not have he just said "I participated in an organized doping program, and have plenty of details to share." and leave it to the others to evaluate their own conscience.

Naming names and accusations lends a taste of sour grapes. Coming from someone who lied to us for 4 years, could there be more lying left in him?

And like the poster earlier in this thread.. I worry about the ripple effects to cycling and racing in our country. When you accuse the top 4 american riders of cheating for the last 10 years, there will bound to be an adverse effect on bike sales, race sponsoring, athlete sponsoring etc.

Here is the announcement he should of made. "Hi, Floyd is now free, I lied, I doped. I was part of on an organized doping program for years along with other riders and teams. 2 months ago I gave all the agencies concerned all the info on the methods riders have been using to pass the drug test."

Could you imagine the horror.. all the athletes deep in their drug programs..gearing up for the big races, being tested for the last two months.. realizing "oh sh$t" they ARE going to get me..


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## mohair_chair

den bakker said:


> of course the irony is that now we assume he is telling the truth


Watch as all the people who tripped over themselves calling him a liar and a loser then will now insist he is the most honest and credible person on earth.


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## Coolhand

mohair_chair said:


> Watch as all the people who tripped over themselves calling him a liar and a loser then will now insist he is the most honest and credible person on earth.


I'm sure he is writing reimbursement checks to everyone dumb enough to contribute to the Floyd Fairness Fund.


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## desmo13

Well, technically, he still maintains his innocence for the TDF win.. he still denies using testosterone for that win.


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## ZoSoSwiM

godot said:


> Don't know if your "How can it be cheating if everyone is doing it?" statement was tongue in cheek or not. Assuming you were serious. If there are rules against it, and one break those rules, it's cheating. It doesn't matter how many others are complicit. If you weren't serious, I apologize



I was being sarcastic. Rereading I guess it didn't come across that way.
I don't support cheating but in a way I believe in leveling the playing field.


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## mohair_chair

Coolhand said:


> I'm sure he is writing reimbursement checks to everyone dumb enough to contribute to the Floyd Fairness Fund.


And to his ex-wife, for throwing away $2 million of their own money.


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## Marc

mohair_chair said:


> Watch as all the people who tripped over themselves calling him a liar and a loser then will now insist he is the most honest and credible person on earth.


 “Positively False: The Real Story of How I Won the Tour de France”


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## ghost6

desmo13 said:


> right idea, wrong execution.


I agree. After lying for four years, Floyd's execution always will be wrong. His words have no credibility. He's just seeking revenge. This too will haunt him sooner or later.


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## nate

StillRiding said:


> Landis either lied when he denied doping or is lying now. He's a proven liar. What possible credibility can he ever have?
> 
> His recent claims may well be true, but his coming forth now isn't going to change anything except the way the few people that believed in him feel.


Landis either told the truth then or is telling the truth now. He's a proven truth-teller. What possible lack of credibility can he ever have?


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## Coolhand

Marc said:


> “Positively False: The Real Story of How I Won the Tour de France”


Now available cheap!


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## Marc

Coolhand said:


> Now available cheap!


Volume 2 coming soon to the Trash Department near you.


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## stevesbike

nate said:


> Landis either told the truth then or is telling the truth now. He's a proven truth-teller. What possible lack of credibility can he ever have?


there's always a trail (money etc) - he's telling now to due to statute of limitations (meaning he's going to provide evidence to implicate those he named). There will be a ton of fallout from this.


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## Creakyknees

My favorite bit so far is the accusation (via hearsay) that the UCI took cash from Bruyneel to hide a positive test.


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## Jwiffle

I don't think this will go very far like everyone here seems to expect. Accusations with an admitted lack of any evidence doesn't mean much. Especially now coming from an known liar. And which is it: did he lie the last 4 years and is just now telling the truth? Or is this a lie so he can somehow make money off it to pay off some debts? Or what - half truths, half lies?

Sucks, because even though I figured he had doped, I'd always hoped he hadn't.


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## stevesbike

Creakyknees said:


> My favorite bit so far is the accusation (via hearsay) that the UCI took cash from Bruyneel to hide a positive test.


most important part of the story is the fact that Landis has kept detailed methodical records on his doping/training. There will be corroborating evidence (bank transfers, visits etc)


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## Marc

stevesbike said:


> there's always a trail (money etc) - he's telling now to due to statute of limitations (meaning he's going to provide evidence to implicate those he named). There will be a ton of fallout from this.


Unless there is blood in a bag-the only fallout will be the suits filed against Floyd. Floyd will come out of this worse than before. Worse, he himself chose to blow his own foot off with a cannon by opening his mouth.


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## thegock

*One dollar and a vanilla gu*

to the first moreon who admits they contributed to the Floyd fairness fund.:blush2: 

BTW, If you had read Rendell's book about Pantani, you might remember that different riders react differently to dosing with EPO, for example. That might raise the question of whether 'if everyone is doing it, then the playing field is level.' Unless you can't read...


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## Dwaynebarry

Creakyknees said:


> My favorite bit so far is the accusation (via hearsay) that the UCI took cash from Bruyneel to hide a positive test.


Is it hearsay if the person involved tells you?


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## Marc

stevesbike said:


> most important part of the story is the fact that Landis has kept detailed methodical records on his doping/training. There will be corroborating evidence (bank transfers, visits etc)


There might be. But how much credibility does Floyd have left today?

Millions wasted in legal fees, when he knew he was guilty. Asking for and compiling hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Floyd Defense Fund, when he knew he was guilty...

Why should Floyd open his big mouth now? Only ill will come of it for him.


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## Dwaynebarry

Marc said:


> Millions wasted in legal fees, when he knew he was guilty.


No he still claims he didn't take Testosterone during that tour.


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## Marc

Dwaynebarry said:


> No he still claims he didn't take Testosterone during that tour.


I did NOT dope with THAT drug!
-Bill Clinton


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## Triker

desmo13 said:


> Well, technically, he still maintains his innocence for the TDF win.. he still denies using testosterone for that win.


Yeah, that's what I read also; isn't that sweet. "I cheated for years, but not wining the TDF." What a guy. I think Floyd is missing being the center of attention.

He aslo states this is going to be hard for people to believe. Yeah, Floyd, you are right about that.


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## DIRT BOY

Dwaynebarry said:


> No he still claims he didn't take Testosterone during that tour.


What I don't get is why we would lie about hat now, if he spilled on everything else? Especially if its all documented in his journal for years like he claims. Maybe he was framed? :idea:Seriously!


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## Creakyknees

Dwaynebarry said:


> Is it hearsay if the person involved tells you?


I'm no attorney, but I think the answer is "yes"

"hearsay" meaning, the jury doesn't get the chance to judge a persons testimony directly.

in this case that jury would be us, and the testimony would be Armstrong's or Bruyneel's.


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## Dwaynebarry

DIRT BOY said:


> What I don't get is why we would lie about hat now, if he spilled on everything else? Especially if its all documented in his journal for years like he claims. Maybe he was framed? :idea:Seriously!


Or he was blood doping with "tainted" blood.


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## Coolhand

Marc said:


> Volume 2 coming soon to the Trash Department near you.


*Spoiler Alert*, he just replaced all the "did not" with "did".


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## DIRT BOY

Dwaynebarry said:


> Or he was blood doping with "tainted" blood.


Sure. His old blood contained test and was put back into his system.
That's very possible as well.

Or someone wanted him busted and out, so they made sure, test got into his blood.

If he was sooo detailed in his methods and journals, a mistake like this would not happen, one would like to think. Just a thought.


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## Henry Porter

ZoSoSwiM said:


> This will not help cycling. I support Lance and *think everything he has done is great.* Tearing him down will hurt a lot more than it will help.
> 
> How can it be cheating if everyone is doing it?
> 
> The fall out from this could significantly change our sport..


Thats sad


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## MaddSkillz

Here's a link to the emails. http://ht.ly/1NDWc


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## Bocephus Jones II

Creakyknees said:


> My favorite bit so far is the accusation (via hearsay) that the UCI took cash from Bruyneel to hide a positive test.


Would this really surprise you?


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## Gimme Shoulder

The only thing anybody outside of those involved know for sure is that Landis is a liar. That is 100% certain at this point (either then or now). Unless/until those accused corroborate the story, every thing else is hear say and conjecture. There would have been credibility to Landis' allegations if he had stated them from the beginning. As it is now - not so much.


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## rook

Gimme Shoulder said:


> The only thing anybody outside of those involved know for sure is that Landis is a lier. That is 100% certain at this point (either then or now). Unless/until those accused corroborate the story, every thing else is hear say and conjecture. There would have been credibility to Landis' allegations if he had stated them from the beginning. As it is now - not so much.



As soon as Armstrong makes his statement, I guarantee you that other riders will be stepping forth to corroborate Landis' statement.


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## Len J

Clearly Landis has a credibility problem which will allow those from the "if one never tested positive, one never doped" school of thought to write off his accusations. 

However, if his documentation is deemed accurate evidence of his own doping, isn't he proving that testing was not effective during the period he doped and still never tested positive? (His one positive test over his entire career doesn't trump the 100's of other tests he had that didn't test positive when he was doping)

Anyone who has been paying attention knows that the dopers have always been several steps ahead of the testers & while the gap may be narrowing, it's still not closed.

Len


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## BlurRoubaix

This is not a big deal. Landis always was dirty - his testing samples and ridiculous - uinsustained performance in The Tour proved such.
Landis is a pathelogical liar.
Landis ought to be treated as any other business who advertised on false pretenses and cheated people out of their money. 
I do not believe anything he says - nothing. None of it is completely accurate and it's not woirth my time or energy to wonder which parts and to what extend are true. I really don't care. 
What a sad, sick little excuse of a person.


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## Marc

rook said:


> As soon as Armstrong makes his statement, I guarantee you that other riders will be stepping forth to corroborate Landis' statement.


Amgen, the UCi, and Rihs have already spoken:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...g-world-reacts-to-floyd-landis-charges_117432


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## stevesbike

BlurRoubaix said:


> This is not a big deal. Landis always was dirty - his testing samples and ridiculous - uinsustained performance in The Tour proved such.
> Landis is a pathelogical liar.
> Landis ought to be treated as any other business who advertised on false pretenses and cheated people out of their money.
> I do not believe anything he says - nothing. None of it is completely accurate and it's not woirth my time or energy to wonder which parts and to what extend are true. I really don't care.
> What a sad, sick little excuse of a person.


pathological liars present incriminating evidence everyday in courts. The question is whether there will be corroborating evidence - get used to it.


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## g29er

Whats sad is that Landis is not doing this to help the sport. He is doing this to bring others down with him. 

Unfortunately, I see another book deal in his future.


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## rook

g29er said:


> Whats sad is that Landis is not doing this to help the sport. He is doing this to bring others down with him.
> 
> Unfortunately, I see another book deal in his future.


You'd be foolish to think that keeping cheaters in the sport is any good for sport. Who cares is a guy won 7 Tours? If he cheated, it means nothing. Those wins are as tainted as the blood that was used to do the transfusion.


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## SilasCL

g29er said:


> Whats sad is that Landis is not doing this to help the sport. He is doing this to bring others down with him.
> 
> Unfortunately, I see another book deal in his future.


People like you seem to think that a culture of doping is good for the sport.

That is nonsense.


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## natedg200202

MaddSkillz said:


> Here's a link to the emails. http://ht.ly/1NDWc


This email is quite an interesting read. Towards the end, an interesting name pops up: Allen Lim. Sounded familiar, and I remember it is from a recent article I read about him in Bicycling Magazine. 

Allen is currently aiding Lance in his racing season this year.


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## Mike T.

Floyd admits he was a liar so then what makes us think he's not still a liar? Floyd has *ZERO* credibility left. Lots of us believed him when he begged us to. Some stupid [email protected] even gave him money. And what's worse than anything is that he would lie to his own *MOTHER*. That's the lowest of the low. If I had the chance I'd spit in his face. Floyd, I hope you read this.


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## SilasCL

natedg200202 said:


> This email is quite an interesting read. Towards the end, an interesting name pops up: Allen Lim. Sounded familiar, and I remember it is from a recent article I read about him in Bicycling Magazine.
> 
> Allen is currently aiding Lance in his racing season this year.


There was a pretty good interview with Lim here:

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/allen-lim-clean-perspective

and associated discussion here:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=3429


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## coop

I think we all need to realize that cycling is no different than any of the other pro sports. They ALL dope. MLB, dopers, the only reason more aren't caught is because the MLBPA is quite possibly the strongest union in existence. NFL, Have you seen these monsters? the reigning defensive rookie of the year wasn't even stripped of his award after testing positive. That and their testing/penalties are a joke. The NBA and NHL may not have as many PED testing positives, but both have a history with extensive recreational/prescription drug abuse

The simple fact is we're all a part of the doping culture. Every game/event we attend, jersey we buy, sporting event we watch on television is turning a blind eye to what's really going on. Like most things in life, money and fame have corrupted the purity of sport.


----------



## Henry Porter

And Lance attacks back. How predictable...


----------



## Big Moe

*Bad Dude?*

These cyclists, like most I have ever met, are decent folks. It appears to me that doping in the pro scene for the last decade+ was about as necessary as putting air in the tires. Once caught or accused, these normally decent guys, who dont like to think of themselves as bad people, want to maintain a public persona that they truly believe about themselves, make another mistake: They lie about it. 

Another temptation to lie is the fact that if you are a doper, you never act alone. To admit it means to implicate doctors, family members, team members, coahces, sponsors, and any manner of others whom you probably care about. This doping is sophisticated and "takes a village" to pull off.

But a lie eats at a decent man. It can cause divorce, depression, and irrational behavior (Millar, Hamilton, Landis). So Landis' lies start to eat at him, and he can't stand it any longer. I applaud him coming clean, but question his motives and the necessity of scorching the earth behind him. Maybe its his attempt to clean the sport up for good, and shine a light on the depth of the problems and the techniques used.


----------



## moabbiker

Good for Landis, I've got a lot of respect for the guy now. What he's saying is no different than what Vaughters and Frankie Andreu has said all along. A little late for Landis, but now is all that counts. Let's hope podium places are readjusted and current dopers such as Valverde are removed quickly.


----------



## Marc

Big Moe said:


> But a lie eats at a decent man. It can cause divorce, depression, and irrational behavior (Millar, Hamilton, Landis). So Landis' lies start to eat at him, and he can't stand it any longer. I applaud him coming clean, but question his motives and the necessity of scorching the earth behind him. Maybe its his attempt to clean the sport up for good, and shine a light on the depth of the problems and the techniques used.


A "decent man" does not ask for hundreds of thousands of dollars from fans under false pretense. If he was accused, defended himself and served his time-it would be different.


----------



## Marc

moabbiker said:


> Good for Landis, I've got a lot of respect for the guy now.


Do you approve of Enron's tactics also?


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

Marc said:


> A "decent man" does not ask for hundreds of thousands of dollars from fans under false pretense. If he was accused, defended himself and served his time-it would be different.


Let's not forget this comes out as the statute of limitations are about up for Landis.


----------



## MaddSkillz

This thread is an interesting read... As if what Floyd now says is somehow not true because he's lied in the past...

News Alert! We're all liars, people. We all lie, have lied and will continue to lie. It doesn't mean everything we say is a lie.

Sorry, but I don't see all these details as a product of Landis' grand creativity due to being "found out."


----------



## Marc

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Let's not forget this comes out as the statute of limitations are about up for Landis.


The only reason I can think of for Floyd to come out NOW, is that we are in the middle of the Giro and Tour of California. I really can't think of any reason apart from damaging ongoing races to explain his timing.


----------



## Marc

MaddSkillz said:


> News Alert! We're all liars, people. We all lie, have lied and will continue to lie. It doesn't mean everything we say is a lie.


A lie is something like "My dog ate my homework". What Landis did in his effort to defend himself borders on criminal. "I'm innocent! Give to my defense fund!". Turns out he was guilty and knew it, and was asking for fans money to try to save his ass and standard of living...I'd recommend those who gave money start a class-action lawsuit.


----------



## SilasCL

Marc said:


> The only reason I can think of for Floyd to come out NOW, is that we are in the middle of the Giro and Tour of California. I really can't think of any reason apart from damaging ongoing races to explain his timing.


Supposedly he sent the letter to USADA on 4/30. So no...


----------



## MarkS

Creakyknees said:


> *I'm no attorney, but I think the answer is "yes*"
> 
> "hearsay" meaning, the jury doesn't get the chance to judge a persons testimony directly.
> 
> in this case that jury would be us, and the testimony would be Armstrong's or Bruyneel's.


I *am* a lawyer, and the answer is "no." What Landis is saying is not hearsay if he witnessed the events directly. Rule 801(c) of the Federal Rules of Evidence (which codifies the common law rule that applies in many state courts) states:

_"Hearsay" is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. _

If Landis were to testify at trial that he saw something himself, it would not be hearsay. Now, if he were to testify that X told him that Y did something, that would be inadmissable hearsay (unless one of the 20+ exceptions to the hearsay rule applied).


----------



## Marc

SilasCL said:


> Supposedly he sent the letter to USADA on 4/30. So no...


So if he sent the letters 2 weeks ago, why did they come to attention today? Lots of things don't add up here.

The WSJ, which VeloNews cites as one of the story breakers, does not comment on how the story came to their attention.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...10855321120.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLETopStories


----------



## Marc

MarkS said:


> I *am* a lawyer, and the answer is "no." What Landis is saying is not hearsay if he witnessed the events directly. Rule 801(c) of the Federal Rules of Evidence (which codifies the common law rule that applies in many state courts) states:
> 
> _"Hearsay" is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. _
> 
> If Landis were to testify at trial that he saw something himself, it would not be hearsay. Now, if he were to testify that X told him that Y did something, that would be inadmissable hearsay (unless one of the 20+ exceptions to the hearsay rule applied).


Catch being we are dealing with an international sport, with US citizens abroad and ashore. What judicial standard applies? EU or US?


----------



## MaddSkillz

Marc said:


> A lie is something like "My dog ate my homework". What Landis did in his effort to defend himself borders on criminal. "I'm innocent! Give to my defense fund!". Turns out he was guilty and knew it, and was asking for fans money to try to save his ass and standard of living...I'd recommend those who gave money start a class-action lawsuit.


That settles it then, it's all made up.


----------



## Dwaynebarry

MarkS said:


> I *am* a lawyer, and the answer is "no." What Landis is saying is not hearsay if he witnessed the events directly. Rule 801(c) of the Federal Rules of Evidence (which codifies the common law rule that applies in many state courts) states:
> 
> _"Hearsay" is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. _
> 
> If Landis were to testify at trial that he saw something himself, it would not be hearsay. Now, if he were to testify that X told him that Y did something, that would be inadmissable hearsay (unless one of the 20+ exceptions to the hearsay rule applied).


We were discussing the claim Landis made that Armstrong told him he and Bruyneel bribed the UCI to suppress his doping positive.


----------



## Marc

MaddSkillz said:


> That settles it then, it's all made up.


Is it made up? Probably not. I wouldn't think so-but all we have now are a few emails.

But unless they guy has blood in bags to prove all his accusations-he's going to end up penniless after all the lawsuits. Unless he has something more than his testimony, and has solid physical evidence, nothing is going to come of his falpping at the mouth.


----------



## philippec

But what is it he is lying about now? About his own doping? About other people doping? I have a hard time believing that he was the *only* one doping at Postal just as I have a hard time believing he is lying about his own doping at Postal now.... so where is the lie now?


----------



## philippec

Mike T. said:


> And what's worse than anything is that he would lie to his own *MOTHER*. That's the lowest of the low. If I had the chance I'd spit in his face. Floyd, I hope you read this.


well... you could swear on your dead dog's grave....


----------



## MaddSkillz

Marc said:


> Is it made up? Probably not. I wouldn't think so-but all we have now are a few emails.
> 
> But unless they guy has blood in bags to prove all his accusations-he's going to end up penniless after all the lawsuits. Unless he has something more than his testimony, and has solid physical evidence, nothing is going to come of his falpping at the mouth.


Why do you think he cares about the money? Stuff like this can eat at a person and they just want to get it off their chest. Sharing what they believe to be the truth is a huge step towards improving their personal health.

And in the end, no matter where he is financially, he may still be happier knowing that he did what he thought was best. 

That's life. It's complicated and doesn't always make sense from the outside looking in.


----------



## Rex Hunter

Apparently Armstrong is saying Landis has been trying to blackmail him for weeks, but Armstrong would not play ball. 

More soon.


----------



## Marc

philippec said:


> But what is it he is lying about now? About his own doping? About other people doping? I have a hard time believing that he was the *only* one doping at Postal just as I have a hard time believing he is lying about his own doping at Postal now.... so where is the lie now?


At a bare minimum, everything he has claimed for the last 3-4 years is a lie. Book he wrote? A lie. Foundation set up to pay for his defense that collected LOTS of money from unwitting fans? A lie. Testimony in anti-doping court? Lie, and possibly perjury (I'm not familiar with legal procedure in such venues).

If I were on a jury and Landis was a witness, I wouldn't believe a damn thing he said given his record.


----------



## MaddSkillz

Look for Lance's comments on www.teamradioshack.com soon.. Per his most recent tweet.


----------



## Marc

MaddSkillz said:


> Why do you think he cares about the money? Stuff like this can eat at a person and they just want to get it off their chest. Sharing what they believe to be the truth is a huge step towards improving their personal health.
> 
> And in the end, no matter where he is financially, he may still be happier knowing that he did what he thought was best.


He might feel better personally, but he could end up bankrupt and in jail after all the lawsuits are filed.


----------



## Coolhand

Marc said:


> But unless they guy has blood in bags to prove all his accusations-he's going to end up penniless after all the lawsuits.


I think he already is.


----------



## ToF

My point isn't to argue whether what he says is true or not- we all know doping was widespread. It is that he just doesn't have any credibility after the whole 2 year OJ Simpson trial-esqe display of supposed innocence, fund raising and power points. Based on that, which now apparently was all a big lie, he seems completely capable of manufacturing all kinds of B.S. in order to vindictively bring people down- to get back at the sport that screwed him while others continue to bask in the glory. What he did to Lemond during that fiasco now seems all the more cruel and vicious. 

I also don't like the fact that he uses a passive voice- like he didn't have any choice in the matter: "I was told..." "they instructed me to...."

Of course none of that really helps us know whether it is true or partly true, an exaggeration or a complete lie- it is certainly believable to me that they were all doping- but have a problem trusting anything coming from Landis after all his b.s. and histrionics.


----------



## mohair_chair

philippec said:


> But what is it he is lying about now?


We don't know that he is, but what has he done so that you now believe him? Is it that he is saying what you want to hear? 

This is a problem of his own creation. If what he is saying today is true, then he admits that he has been lying for years, in public and in private, to fans and loved ones. So his word means nothing. If he wants people to believe him now, he needs to either produce the proof he claims he has, or get someone else who was directly involved to back him up. I won't hold my breath.


----------



## SicBith

Here's a long shot, but maybe an insight as to why now.

Didn't France put out a warrant for FL's involvement in hacking a WADA lab's computer?

Maybe a plea bargain agreement to drop the warrant?

Just a thought....


----------



## blackhat

SicBith said:


> Here's a long shot, but maybe an insight as to why now.
> 
> Didn't France put out a warrant for FL's involvement in hacking a WADA lab's computer?
> 
> Maybe a plea bargain agreement to drop the warrant?
> 
> Just a thought....


Have they quashed the warrant?


----------



## MarkS

Marc said:


> Catch being we are dealing with an international sport, with US citizens abroad and ashore. What judicial standard applies? EU or US?


The type of evidence that would be admissible would depend on the forum of any legal action. For example, many arbitrations do not follow the traditional rules of evidence that are used in US courts. I have no idea what the evidentiary rules would be in a non-US Court. Given that Landis is a resident of California, if anyone were to sue him for defamation, the plaintiff likely would sue him in California (although there is the possibility that a court in the UK, which has much more plaintiff-friendly defamation laws, could exercise jurisdiction if any of his statements are published in the UK). Thus, the rules of evidence used in US federal court or the state courts of California would apply. But, I think that the more likely scenario in which this whole thing gets into the courts is one in which there is an investigation by US federal authorities and some criminal action in US federal court. For example, if a US citizen bribed a UCI official, that would be a violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. If the case is in a US federal court the Federal Rules of Evidence would apply.


----------



## SicBith

blackhat said:


> Have they quashed the warrant?


dunno.... as I said just a thought. Maybe the plea involves more than emailed statements to be honored.


----------



## blackhat

SicBith said:


> dunno.... as I said just a thought. Maybe the plea involves more than emailed statements to be honored.


Fair enough. fwiw, I think it's unlikely. If the French had an interest, I imagine they'd require it to be sworn testimony or a deposition, not a leaked email.


----------



## goulven

*Floyd, I love you*

Thanks Floyd for making my belly so sore from laughing !  

Being a frenchman, I just remember all the support from yankee w*nkers at the time that Landis was blaming the french laboratory (chatenay-malabry) waving the flag and going on about the froggies !

Landis was your average US guy naturally loaded with testoterone, blablabla, he got tested so many times blablabla never been found out, LOL !

And now, one reads similar crap about Armstrong from people who are still hinding their heads in the sand :

Lance's never doped. You can't get tested as many times as Lance and come clean every time if you are doping.
#1 He came out of chemo therapy 20 lbs lighter and regained all of his strength - and then some
#2 After the pain of fighting and beating cancer - the pain of bike racing was nothing. The only thing that he cheated was death, not the sport, and and not his fellow competitors. 
and other blablablas

I just ask the question : Who is the biggest Cheat ? LANDIS who played all the best he could with the system in order to be back in the racing loop and just continue earning a good living (at the end of the day it is just money and lots of people would do what Floyd did)
OR ATMSTRONG the big american hero who fought cancer, won x tour de france with no drugs and is THE living example of so many americans.

The higher you go, the harder the fall !


----------



## SicBith

blackhat said:


> Fair enough. fwiw, I think it's unlikely. If the French had an interest, I imagine they'd require it to be sworn testimony or a deposition, not a leaked email.



Agreed. I do think the French have a interest in nailing Armstrong. Maybe the release of other information (testimony) is pending response from the cyclists involved.


----------



## philippec

Well, I find it hard to believe he is lying about his own doping *and* I find it implausible that he was doping unbeknownst to all those around him *and* I find it implausible that he was the only one doping on his successive teams . You might find otherwise... but that credulousness is beyond me. YMMV


----------



## bahueh

you're all worse than my grandmothers' sewing circle..

the only thing coming of this is multiple lawsuits for defamation against Landis...


----------



## blackhat

bahueh said:


> you're all worse than my grandmothers' sewing circle..
> 
> the only thing coming of this is multiple lawsuits for defamation against Landis...


again, no. 

No one is going to sue him b/c no one wants the testimony and/or perjury. and he has no spectacular level of assets.


----------



## SicBith

bahueh said:


> you're all worse than my grandmothers' sewing circle..
> 
> the only thing coming of this is multiple lawsuits for defamation against Landis...



there's doping in the sewing circuit as well. It's everywhere my friend.


----------



## il sogno

sokudo said:


> Bike mechanics? Domestiques? The next generation who would not have american teams to join? Riders at all cat levels who will have less races left? Bike manufacturers who instead of Armstrong effect will have to survive through an anti-cycling draught like in Germany? Do you think Amgen ToC will survive loss of sponsorship? Finally, all the money that Livestrong raises and all the good work that it does?
> 
> Those dopers and cheaters are quite well off already, thank you.


Bike mechanics and domestiques will find work. Bike manufacturers will continue to sell bikes. The current fixie fad and high gas prices will help bike sales. 

Just because some riders have gotten busted for doping doesn't mean the sky is gonna fall. The LAF will continue on. Lance is still a cancer survivor who does a lot for cancer patients and their families. He just won't be the "Mother Theresa" figure he is now.


----------



## soup67

Dwaynebarry said:


> We were discussing the claim Landis made that Armstrong told him he and Bruyneel bribed the UCI to suppress his doping positive.


If the parties to the dispute are Landis and Armstrong, then it is not hearsay-- statement by a party opponent.


----------



## Nimitz

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5204726

Lance's response at the ToC.

Chad


----------



## farm

desmo13 said:


> Well, technically, he still maintains his innocence for the TDF win.. he still denies using testosterone for that win.



That wasn't how I read his comment. He denied using testosterone. I didn't hear him deny blood doping or anything else. I think he's a doper, along with most everyone else, but I also think the handling of his samples and subsequent decision were ridiculous.

Can you think of another rider who has made complaints about how his samples were handled at that lab, but who has not had his career trashed? I can.


----------



## g29er

SilasCL said:


> People like you seem to think that a culture of doping is good for the sport.
> 
> That is nonsense.


You missed my point completely. 

I dont want dopers in our sport. I meant that Landis is not outing Armstrong and the rest to help clean up cycling because he cares about it. He is only doing it for his own personal gain.


----------



## mdutcher

Landis has no real credibility here. It will be interesting to see the aftermath of all of this over the next several weeks. Good stuff!

I do feel that they are all doping.... across the board in all sports. They all want the edge over the opponent. In cycling, we feel that to be just as true. We hear about it. We see it happen with people getting popped and banned. The system works, but also has its flaws. 

The sad thing is that it will continue to happen. Lots of money is tied up in this. If the big names do fall, cycling will suffer and that will truly be a sad day.

However, if it weren't for the doping there might only be 10 finishers in the grand tours.


----------



## Coolhand

SicBith said:


> there's doping in the sewing circuit as well. It's everywhere my friend.


Yeah, everyone know those grannies are on the juice. . . .


----------



## Dwaynebarry

bahueh said:


> you're all worse than my grandmothers' sewing circle..
> 
> the only thing coming of this is multiple lawsuits for defamation against Landis...


Not surprisingly, Armstrong is saying he won't sue. He's not going to risk all those people being willing to perjure themselves.


----------



## bahueh

*so you agree..*



blackhat said:


> again, no.
> 
> No one is going to sue him b/c no one wants the testimony and/or perjury. and he has no spectacular level of assets.


nothing will come of it...Landis needs psychotherapy and medication. train wreck.

off. the. deep. end.

even if its true, it cannot be proven. without proof, there is no guilt. end of story.


----------



## S_Top_Sign

MG537 said:


> Much better explanation than, "pressure got me", "I intended to dope", "I apologize to my family/friends"........


Gotta say I agree. The guy isn't the most PR friendly athlete, and his reputation is already tarnished - so what would he really have to lose here? Nothing. His claims are out in the open, and they do seem to follow the pattern of other Armstrong/Postal accusations we've seen in the past. All that needs to be done is an investigation, or others need to come forward with evidence either for or against.

Floyd is fed up, no doubt, and I can't say that this is the most tactful way to go about cleaning up the sport or clearing his name, but it's his life, and I'm sure he's thought about the consequences here.


----------



## asciibaron

Len J said:


> I'm shocked, I tell you shocked! Anyone suprised by these revelations has had their head in the sand.
> 
> Len


how do you ride so strong in a head wind - who has the dirt on Len J?  

i stopped watching in 2005 when it was so obvious - who can attack in the mtns day after day?


----------



## Dan Gerous

asciibaron said:


> who can attack in the mtns day after day?


Well, if one can power the mobile universe, I guess he can attack day after day... or used to. Now it seems he cannot even finish a race, given he even starts.


----------



## asciibaron

Dan Gerous said:


> Well, if one can power the mobile universe, I guess he can attack day after day... or used to. Now it seems he cannot even finish a race, given he even starts.


damn that Newton and his evil gravity!


----------



## CafeRacer

Can someone tell me why anyone is believing anything that comes from Floyd? I don't think I understand.


----------



## aliensporebomb

So my question:

Are all you guys gonna sell your bikes and bike clothing and shoes and crap because of this?

It's depressing - we don't know what is false and what is true anymore. 

We can presume that some percentage were always on something and anyone who did it by old fashioned effort will always be under suspicion now.

Former heroes will look like fools, cherished idols may fall and tarnish. 
There will always be questions no matter how it comes out.

I'm not going to worry. I'm just going to keep riding.


----------



## spyderman

Mootsie said:


> Cyclingnews says it has a letter from a Floyd Landis that needs some verifying, but it supposedly reveals drug use in cycling up to his tour victory. Stay tuned.


Tells all, after he lied for how many years? After he raised money from his fans to support his lies.. :thumbsup: 

Seems like he doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions. 

Floyd is a hoser... extraordinaire .


----------



## rward325

One News article proclaims 

"Head of Agency That Stripped Landis of Title Is Vindicated"

Got to love it!


----------



## MarkS

soup67 said:


> If the parties to the dispute are Landis and Armstrong, then it is not hearsay-- statement by a party opponent.


Federal Rule of Evidence 801(d)(2). :thumbsup:


----------



## Jason1500

CafeRacer said:


> Can someone tell me why anyone is believing anything that comes from Floyd? I don't think I understand.


Because a lot of people on here believe without a doubt in their mind that Lance is a doper and they literally cry themselves to sleep every night that Lance goes unpunished. So whenever someone comes out and lays an accusation against him, they so badly want it to be true they'll believe anyone no matter how unreliable they are, even a disgraced rider who tried every lie/excuse in imaginable to clear his name before deciding to admit doping and try to take down everyone else down with him. Landis could say Lance hides his doping blood in an alternate universe which only he can access and people on here would believe it to be true. What do I think? I think they all dope but I'm not going to be calling for anyone's head without conclusive proof. My question is why is the target on Armstrong, if Armstrong is a doper then surely Contador, Schleck, Wiggins, etc are also dopers.


----------



## Dwaynebarry

aliensporebomb said:


> It's depressing - we don't know what is false and what is true anymore.


It's only depressing if you cling to some unrealistic view of the world. C'mon we all know what's true in the big picture, even if half of what Landis claims turns out to be false.

Nobody won anything signficant in cycling (or probably any other endurance sport) from the early 90s to at least 2005 or so, and quite possibely right up to the present.

Too easy to dope and get away with it, and products/techniques that were highly effective.

What was Ulrich's quote? Something like "if people can't put 2 and 2 together about how cycling worked then I can't help them"


----------



## ti-triodes

Jason1500 said:


> Because a lot of people on here believe without a doubt in their mind that Lance is a doper and they literally cry themselves to sleep every night that Lance goes unpunished. So whenever someone comes out and lays an accusation against him, they so badly want it to be true they'll believe anyone no matter how unreliable they are, even a disgraced rider who tried every lie/excuse in imaginable to clear his name before deciding to admit doping and try to take down everyone else down with him. Landis could say Lance hides his doping blood in an alternate universe which only he can access and people on here would believe it to be true. What do I think? I think they all dope but I'm not going to be calling for anyone's head without conclusive proof. My question is why is the target on Armstrong, if Armstrong is a doper then surely Contador, Schleck, Wiggins, etc are also dopers.




You took most of the words right out of my mouth.

It wasn't enough for Floyd to trash his marriage and his career. Now he has to trash everyone else he knows. What a douche.


----------



## aliensporebomb

Well, welcome to the world right? People will do anything to get ahead I suppose. 

But, yeah, you can't control the way people will behave - you can only control your own behavior.

Just look at the financial meltdown - FULL of people doing illegal and shady things.

The whole world is that way to some degree.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised.


----------



## jemsurvey

I thought he was a liar 4 years ago...my opinion has not changed....he needs help...


----------



## cheddarlove

Jason1500 said:


> Because a lot of people on here believe without a doubt in their mind that Lance is a doper and they literally cry themselves to sleep every night that Lance goes unpunished. So whenever someone comes out and lays an accusation against him, they so badly want it to be true they'll believe anyone no matter how unreliable they are, even a disgraced rider who tried every lie/excuse in imaginable to clear his name before deciding to admit doping and try to take down everyone else down with him. Landis could say Lance hides his doping blood in an alternate universe which only he can access and people on here would believe it to be true. What do I think? I think they all dope but I'm not going to be calling for anyone's head without conclusive proof. My question is why is the target on Armstrong, if Armstrong is a doper then surely Contador, Schleck, Wiggins, etc are also dopers.


Hear Hear! :thumbsup: I like Lance. I like George. I like Fabian. I like Tom. I even like Tyler and I still like bike racing. I like Cadel and the Lampre rider ***** slapping each other at 30 mph. today! I wish we could just focus on the racing!
I love the spin Lance puts on what was said! I think most of us knew he was going to say Floyd a nut case. "talking to himself"..classic! I surprised they didn't say they saw him shooting up somewhere!
I feel sorry for Floyd. He lost everything. He sees dopers coming back like Ricco and Vino and they never really admitted it. Why was he ostracized?


----------



## eldarko

Although he may be telling the truth it's hard to believe anyone who's lied for the past four years. Of course he's going to implicate pillars in the cycling sport like Zabriskie, Hincapie, Armstrong, Bruneel, etc. 

If he's telling the truth now how do you separate that from the lies. He tells us I doped in the past BUT I didn't when I won the TDF. What a coincidence!


----------



## Rex Hunter

I think we should listen to what Floyd said about having a more mature approach to the doping era. Floyd says he has nothing to be ashamed about - it was just what everyone had to do at that time - and more riders would feel comfortable talking about what they did if their names weren't run through the mud when they come clean. 

Will Armstrong's critics listen to Floyd and have more sophisticated and reasonable approach to this issue? Cycling has moved on and now has much better controls, so most riders no longer need to dope. That's good, but we should recognise that the previous era was different without condemning people or raking over it as a vendetta.


----------



## rook

philippec said:


> well... you could swear on your dead dog's grave....



Is Armstrong calling Tyler about now telling him not to speak. Hmmmm. Hopefully, the investigators will follow the money trail, if there is one. And remember that masseuse who claimed to be the contact to fetch drugs for Lance? Emma something. Vindication.


----------



## spade2you

I always figured that he was telling the truth since very few people can stick to a story with such vigor without eventually caving. I find it odd that he's admitting to using EPO, but he never tested positive for that.  

Like all of the commentators noted. I don't think we'll ever know the real truth. Perhaps the last decade or so of cycling was built on doping for ratings. 

I really have no solid opinion on Landis, Lance, etc. As many accounts have noted, perhaps Landis is just plain bitter and nuts. On the other hand, perhaps he just blew the lid off of something huge. Maybe he's just trying to get "revenge", perhaps he's right. 

I guess about all we can do is look to the future of cycling and hope guys like Sagan will bring back the lost luster, not that other sports are 100% clean.


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## ttug

*in summary*

they All Cheat!


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## moabbiker

Marc said:


> Do you approve of Enron's tactics also?


I don't know. Do you approve of Obama?

Stick with the topic.


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## M-theory

Then its not cheating.


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## cld12

"Everyone cheats on their taxes", does not mean that it is not cheating.


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## atpjunkie

*and as I have thought*



Dwaynebarry said:


> No he still claims he didn't take Testosterone during that tour.


he claims to have used Testosterone and homologous Blood doping

my guess is they drew blood during the 'off' season and it had testosterone in it
during the Tour he got a booster of that blood and with it came his doping bust

typically testosterone is used during training to build more muscle, not mid race. I''m guessing it piggybacked in with the transfusion


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## Purple Liquid

*Even if Floyd is right...*

... I don't feel it should be known. There is no denying what Armstrong has done for American cycling. He has become an icon for many riders. There is way too much at stake if Armstrong "does come clean". Take Lance out of the Livestrong image for a second; imagine if that all went away because Lance was actually doping? Do remember that none of this would have happened if OUCH-Bahati was invited to California... 

And that was a very poorly written email, too.


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## zmudshark

Purple Liquid said:


> ... I don't feel it should be known. There is no denying what Armstrong has done for American cycling. He has become an icon for many riders. There is way too much at stake if Armstrong "does come clean". Take Lance out of the Livestrong image for a second; imagine if that all went away because Lance was actually doping? Do remember that none of this would have happened if OUCH-Bahati was invited to California...
> 
> And that was a very poorly written email, too.


Two words, youngster:

Greg Lemond

addendum...

I could give a crap about all of this, except that there are many riders out there that would like to make it to the 'Bigs', but are unwilling to dope.

As long as doping is winked at in any sport.I find it impossible to encourage someone to 'give it their all'.


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## tomcho

Jason1500 said:


> Because a lot of people on here believe without a doubt in their mind that Lance is a doper and they literally cry themselves to sleep every night that Lance goes unpunished. So whenever someone comes out and lays an accusation against him, they so badly want it to be true they'll believe anyone no matter how unreliable they are, even a disgraced rider who tried every lie/excuse in imaginable to clear his name before deciding to admit doping and try to take down everyone else down with him. Landis could say Lance hides his doping blood in an alternate universe which only he can access and people on here would believe it to be true. What do I think? I think they all dope but I'm not going to be calling for anyone's head without conclusive proof. My question is why is the target on Armstrong, if Armstrong is a doper then surely Contador, Schleck, Wiggins, etc are also dopers.



:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## rook

zmudshark said:


> Two words, youngster:
> 
> Greg Lemond
> 
> addendum...
> 
> I could give a crap about all of this, except that there are many riders out there that would like to make it to the 'Bigs', but are unwilling to dope.
> 
> As long as doping is winked at in any sport.I find it impossible to encourage someone to 'give it their all'.




+1
Lemond did what Armstrong could not.
Win clean.


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## soup67

mdutcher said:


> However, if it weren't for the doping there might only be 10 finishers in the grand tours.


I don't necessarily agree, but what would be wrong with that?


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## ttug

*wrong*

Its cheating because there are rules and laws that state otherwise. There are singned contracts that state the riders will ahhere to the ruls, they do not, they cheat.

HOWEVER, if they all cheat, the easy solution is to allow doping and make it unlimited as happened with body building. 

But sorry, they all cheated, they broke the rules, they doped. Period


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## Coolhand

rook said:


> +1
> Lemond did what Armstrong could not.
> Win clean.


So they all doped, *unless you liked him*. Right. . . .


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## den bakker

Coolhand said:


> So they all doped, *unless you liked him*. Right. . . .


BS. That's not what rook said.


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## paredown

Rex Hunter said:


> I think we should listen to what Floyd said about having a more mature approach to the doping era. Floyd says he has nothing to be ashamed about - it was just what everyone had to do at that time - and more riders would feel comfortable talking about what they did if their names weren't run through the mud when they come clean.
> 
> Will Armstrong's critics listen to Floyd and have more sophisticated and reasonable approach to this issue? Cycling has moved on and now has much better controls, so most riders no longer need to dope. That's good, but we should recognise that the previous era was different without condemning people or raking over it as a vendetta.


! What he said!! A Cycling "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" like they had in SA--recognize it was a different time, people did what they (thought) they had to to be competitive.

I mean if you were the top 1 percentile rider, & knew the guys in the 99th percentile were doping, would you dope to stay ahead?

I know I would....

The part that bugs me is the mainstream media makes it sound like some wimp who picks up bike at Wal*Mart could get on the juice and win the TDF. Ain't happening then or now. 

I'd love to see the marginal benefits analyzed to see whether or not the gains were even real for that top 1% of athletes....


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## den bakker

paredown said:


> ! What he said!! A Cycling "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" like they had in SA--recognize it was a different time, people did what they (thought) they had to to be competitive.
> 
> I mean if you were the top 1 percentile rider, & knew the guys in the 99th percentile were doping, would you dope to stay ahead?
> 
> I know I would....
> 
> The part that bugs me is the mainstream media makes it sound like some wimp who picks up bike at Wal*Mart could get on the juice and win the TDF. Ain't happening then or now.
> 
> I'd love to see the marginal benefits analyzed to see whether or not the gains were even real for that top 1% of athletes....


Ah, every half a decade or so the same story. "Now it's better" "forget the past, it was different" 
And yet it's the same people pulling the strings, organising the teams and training the riders. Hell it's even the same riders that magically transform to the new era.


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## rward325

Even with the rules in place it still happens and the top 1% of the cheaters get away with it. The ones that did get caught and admit to it serve their time and come back and are welcomed back in the peloton. Get caught again(Tyler) and then they retire. Floyd made a ruckus out of the whole thing rather than admit he did it and serve his sentence. He fought the battle tooth and nail when everyone knew he was dirty because all of them were. Why is he surprised to be ostracized from the group after this? 

/Begin Rant
Fast forward to yesterday and the fact he is riding for a team that actually has potential to get a big boy license next year and is signed to a decent contract. He now goes public with I am a doper and am not sorry but you know him and him and him are guilty of this this and this. What do you think this just did to the hopes of that team to get a license next season? I am pretty sure they are screwed by this. I happen to know a young rider on that team and this isn't exactly a shining moment in his young career. This is what pisses me off about the whole Floyd thing. He waited until someone pissed him off enough to go public with this. He saw the statute of limitations running out and if he didn't do it now he couldn't make a buck off of it. I once liked Floyd Landis as a rider and a person. In my eyes he just another cheating athlete with bad attitude slinging s*** because he didn't have the balls to take it like man.

/Rant over


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## rook

I'm not saying that there is no doping in the Amateur ranks as I am sure that there are probably some Cat 1s and maybe Cat 2s that have found access to drugs. I'm just saying that drug use is WAY more prevalent in today's european pro peloton. It doesn't mean that all euro pros are dopers, but I suspect that a great number of them are doped up. That's why they don't want Floyd speaking up. For this reason I don't think any current pro cyclist is going to risk their career and speak out. Only former pro cyclists would probably speak out. And it has already been reported that two of them have said that they've been told to keep quiet. Why and by whom? Hmmmm. I wonder.


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## dasho

*I find it hard to believe....*

that Lance didn't cheat when other members of US Postal below admitted or were caught doping.

Landis
Heras
Andreau
Hamilton

Hamilton wasn't much better than Landis - he swore for years he was clean. 

Whether he is a jerk or not, if Landis is telling the truth, I hope others will step forward and substanstiate [sp] his story.


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## M-theory

cld12 said:


> "Everyone cheats on their taxes", does not mean that it is not cheating.


Paying taxes isn't a competition..so that's a poor analogy. 

In any case, my original quip was somewhat sarcastic.


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## ultimobici

M-theory said:


> Paying taxes isn't a competition..so that's a poor analogy.
> 
> In any case, my original quip was somewhat sarcastic.


Not really. The guy who cheats on his taxes has more disposable income so can afford the nicer car, house etc. Just as the doper wins more thus having more disposable income......
Cheating takes many forms. Dodging the rules in any way is cheating.

To those that think this will go away, think again. If the same agency that investigated BALCO is on this then it ain't going away. Floyd may not have corroborating evidence for his claims but that doesn't stop the Federal authorities digging and possibly getting to the truth, whatever it may be, as a result.

LA has stated that he is not going to take legal action as it is costly and time consuming. More likely is that he knows that there is no point in suing someone who has little money plus the possibility that he and others may be forced to answer awkward questions doesn't fill him with the joys of spring!


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## Coolhand

ultimobici said:


> LA has stated that he is not going to take legal action as it is costly and time consuming. More likely is that he knows that there is no point in suing someone who has little money plus the possibility that he and others may be forced to answer awkward questions doesn't fill him with the joys of spring!


Actually, its more_ NY Times v Sullivan_ which keeps "famous" people from suing in the US on defamation/libel claims. Why- it makes it VERY hard to win. Plus, say you do win. Landis probably has no money and will likely file bankruptcy to protect what he has. So you spent a ton of money on attorneys fees for nothing. 

That is why is you see litigation like this brought in English courts if it is brought at all. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._Sullivan


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## den bakker

Coolhand said:


> Actually, its more_ NY Times v Sullivan_ which keeps "famous" people from suing in the US on defamation/libel claims. Why- its makes it VERY hard to win. Plus, say you do win. Landis probably has no money and will likely file bankruptcy to protect what he has. So you spent a ton of money on attorneys fees for nothing.
> 
> That is why is you see litigation like brought in English courts if it is brought at all.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._Sullivan


Poor Lance, he just never gets a break


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## Coolhand

den bakker said:


> Poor Lance, he just never gets a break


Really, I drop some quality legal education and that's all I get?  

Yeesh. . .


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## den bakker

Coolhand said:


> Really, I drop some quality legal education and that's all I get?
> 
> Yeesh. . .


No we get it, Landis is poor, no point in trying to clean your name in that case.


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## EverydayRide

Mootsie said:


> Cyclingnews says it has a letter from a Floyd Landis that needs some verifying, but it supposedly reveals drug use in cycling up to his tour victory. Stay tuned.


Sind wir doch mal ehrlich, wer glaubt das diese Leistung ohne Doping zustande kommen, ist ganz schön blauäugig. 

Born at night, not last night.


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## thechriswebb

Anyone remember landis's twitter post "I'm thinking about doing something that will change the sport of cycling forever" (or something like that). I don't think he was talking about the hour record.


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## Buzzard

None of these guys actually cheated until they are proven guilty or personally admit to it.


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## Dwaynebarry

Buzzard said:


> None of these guys actually cheated until they are proven guilty or personally admit to it.


Well they either cheated or they didn't, being proven guilty or admitting to it doesn't change what occurred.

Or do you mean the old attitude of "it isn't cheating unless you get caught"


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## Buzzard

Dwaynebarry said:


> Well they either cheated or they didn't, being proven guilty or admitting to it doesn't change what occurred.
> 
> Or do you mean the old attitude of "it isn't cheating unless you get caught"


What _actually_ occurred (or didn't occur) is irrelevant...unfortunately. That's the point I was trying to make. I guess the word "actually" kind of implies reality, but who the Hell knows what that is?


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## Mike T.

Dwaynebarry said:


> Well they either cheated or they didn't, being proven guilty or admitting to it doesn't change what occurred.
> Or do you mean the old attitude of "it isn't cheating unless you get caught"


So you're saying that anyone can accuse anyone else of doping and it's a fait accompli? They're automatically guilty unless they can prove themselves innocent? Why the hell doesn't someone finger Lemond then and put some heat on him? Wipe his 3 TdF's out and that will give him something to think about instead of continually stalking Lance WITH NO *PROOF*.


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## LostViking

If you put aside, for a moment, Landis' pointing the fingers at others 
- the descriptions he is sharing of how dopeing is on-going and how dopers are makeing a shame out of the biological passport are eye-opening - and verifiable in a lab, 
unlike his personal accusations.


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