# Is the Light and Motion Seca 700 overkill for 21 mile road commute?



## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

Basically I will be riding 21 miles of unlit roads at 8 or 9 PM but don't know if something in the 700 lumens is overkill. I don't plan on doing any night mountain biking but wanted a light that I would be sure could light my way. Would I be just as well served by a L&M Seca 400. Either one would be handlebar mounted and I would have a small 100 lumen or less light attached to my helmet.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

you don't have to run it on full power all the time


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

Good point about not having to run it on full power. I suppose it will last long enough on one charge to maybe do a day or two at medium power which is probably close to the Seca 400. Basically I would be paying an extra 110 dollars for the longer burn time and option to have 700 lumens at my disposal.


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

If you are riding with traffic and in and out of street lights (eyes always having to adjust to incoming light) - then I actually don't think it is even close to overkill. I use a Seca 700 on full and a 400L dinotte on my helmet for my commute. There are times that it still is barely enough. If I was out in the woods mtn biking, I would probably run it on low most of the time.

Even when I go out for my early morning rides that are mostly car free, I prefer the extra light, especially on downhill decents so I don't over ride my light.


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

*too much*

I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, but I think some bike lights are too bright for road use. You want a light that will be noticed, but once a light is so bright that on-coming travelers have to look away I say it's counter-productive over-kill. If your commute includes a 35 MPH descent in the dark, then maybe. As Mary Poppins said, "Enough is as good as a feast."


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## BentChainring (Jun 23, 2005)

No....

There is no such thing as too bright, IMO.


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

PdxMark said:


> I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, but I think some bike lights are too bright for road use. You want a light that will be noticed, but once a light is so bright that on-coming travelers have to look away I say it's counter-productive over-kill. If your commute includes a 35 MPH descent in the dark, then maybe. As Mary Poppins said, "Enough is as good as a feast."


I can imagine it may be irritating to oncoming drivers but I am not sure it's nearly as bright as my cars HID headlights. I do have to ride down the other side of a bridge. The descent is probably 2/5ths of a mile or so and can be fast if I let it. For the bridge and a few other spots on my commute I want to be so damn bright that every car in a half mile radius knows i am there because I like life. I guess that answers my own question though, huh. I figure if I have multiple superflashs on the back and crazy light on the front all the cars will see that something bright is ahead and to steer clear. I never encounter pedestrians or other cyclists.


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

BentChainring said:


> No....
> 
> There is no such thing as too bright, IMO.


So basically buy the brightest you can afford? I wondered if there was a brighter rear light that maybe had a Li Ion battery pack or something. I may look that up too. 
Consensus here so far seems to be go for the 700, correct? I really appreciate all the fast responses. I love commuting by bike, how else can you get in 40 miles of riding, spend less on gas, and have more time to spend with your family when you do get home?


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

PdxMark said:


> I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, but I think some bike lights are too bright for road use. You want a light that will be noticed, but once a light is so bright that on-coming travelers have to look away I say it's counter-productive over-kill. If your commute includes a 35 MPH descent in the dark, then maybe. As Mary Poppins said, "Enough is as good as a feast."



That's the beauty of the Seca - it has a shaped flat beam that puts the light on the road and not the trees, you are much less likely to blind with it than a light half the power in a standard flashlight reflector.


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

Doctorsti said:


> So basically buy the brightest you can afford? I wondered if there was a brighter rear light that maybe had a Li Ion battery pack or something. I may look that up too.
> Consensus here so far seems to be go for the 700, correct? I really appreciate all the fast responses. I love commuting by bike, how else can you get in 40 miles of riding, spend less on gas, and have more time to spend with your family when you do get home?


brightest rear light, that also has a Li-on battery pack would be a dinotte 400l rear light. The planet flashes do a very good job with the strobe, but for sheer brightness, I have yet to see a light brighter than the dinotte. I've had quite a few motorists comment on the 140L tail light I have from Dinotte - all positive comments BTW saying how easy it was to see me.


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

bsaunder said:


> brightest rear light, that also has a Li-on battery pack would be a dinotte 400l rear light. The planet flashes do a very good job with the strobe, but for sheer brightness, I have yet to see a light brighter than the dinotte. I've had quite a few motorists comment on the 140L tail light I have from Dinotte - all positive comments BTW saying how easy it was to see me.


The 140L looks like a pretty nice light as well and at 100 dollars it's almost a third of the cost of the 400L so I may just pick that up too tonight. I can imagine the 400L is probably crazy bright but as you say the 140L is plenty bright, especially with two planet bike superflashs on the back to really get some attention.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Go bright. I have an older HID that is only on/off, you can't change the brightness. It is overkill in the city part of my commute, but for the rural dark roads, I love how far the beam projects. Get the 700 and run it at lower power unless you need the 700 lumens. It will definately be my next light, especially with the knowledge that it will blind Bent.


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## magic (Dec 8, 2005)

I run a Stella 200 and find it just enough for early morning pitch black commutes (I do 31 to 50 Miles each way depending on the route I take). 

Which ever light you get, also pick up some reflective clothing or one of those reflective vests you can pull over what ever you are wearing. Car headlights will still wash out a very powerful bike light and your light is not really visible from the side.


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

magic said:


> I run a Stella 200 and find it just enough for early morning pitch black commutes (I do 31 to 50 Miles each way depending on the route I take).
> 
> Which ever light you get, also pick up some reflective clothing or one of those reflective vests you can pull over what ever you are wearing. Car headlights will still wash out a very powerful bike light and your light is not really visible from the side.


First of all, WOW 30-50 miles one way. Nothing like a century ride daily to keep the doctor away. I have a reflective vest and tape on my helmet. I figure the front light really is so I can see and secondarily so that cars coming up behind me see that I am throwing quite a bit of light ahead of me, making them think twice about what the thing on the side of road is. I think the super bright and flashing red lights are really what save a life so I will be looking into the Dinotte 140L or 200L along with my blinkies. My long days I will be riding in pitch black early mornings and pitch black nights at around 8:30. I am happy to hear that the Stella is good enough which means the 400 or the 700 should be plenty to see by. When I used to commute in Philly I only had a little cateye opticube LED light. Tiny little thing used to be seen but to see. Most of my route was lit and on bike path. The rest was dark gravel trail that, once my eyes adjusted, could be ridden by moonlight and the front light on flash and pointed away from the ground.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

I can get by with a single Dinotte 200 lumen light if I need to, but if there are streetlights (creating bright pools of light alternating with shadows) a pair of them (for 400 lumens) is better. I don't think a 700 would be out of the question, but you _MUST_ point it down like a car's headlight. Yes, you'll see more if it's pointed straight ahead like a car's high beam headlight (heck, you'll see reflective signs a mile away), but you'll blind oncoming drivers (and riders), even with a 200 lumen light. I'm amazed that bike lights don't come with these instructions, but on the MUTs at night I'm guessing more than half the riders have their lights pointed straight ahead and to heck with anyone riding towards them. (That's why I always wear a cycling cap with a visor under my helmet at night, so I can tilt my head down and not be blinded by these ignorami).


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

I don't understand why you need so much lightpower but to each his own. I use a Fenix L2D for commuting (22 miles RT), and it's all I need. It puts out 180 lumens on the highest setting, but I run it on the second-highest setting (105 lumens) to extend the battery life. I've tried it on high, but the difference in brightness is not enough to warrant the shorter run time for me.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

tarwheel2 said:


> I don't understand why you need so much lightpower but to each his own. I use a Fenix L2D for commuting (22 miles RT), and it's all I need. It puts out 180 lumens on the highest setting, but I run it on the second-highest setting (105 lumens) to extend the battery life. I've tried it on high, but the difference in brightness is not enough to warrant the shorter run time for me.




the amount of light you _need_ is not only somewhat of an individual thing, but also depends on conditions of use, i.e., ambient light (street lights or pitch black, to see or be seen, road commute or mtn biking), speed of riding, etc.




.


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## superjohnny (May 16, 2006)

PdxMark said:


> I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, but I think some bike lights are too bright for road use. You want a light that will be noticed, but once a light is so bright that on-coming travelers have to look away I say it's counter-productive over-kill. If your commute includes a 35 MPH descent in the dark, then maybe. As Mary Poppins said, "Enough is as good as a feast."


Thank you for posting this Mark, I agree completely. I was riding home the other night and some guy passed me lit up with about 4 headlights. I was totally blind. I use a 200 lumen light and it's plenty bright enough to be seen in traffic.


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## BentChainring (Jun 23, 2005)

FatTireFred said:


> the amount of light you _need_ is not only somewhat of an individual thing, but also depends on conditions of use, i.e., ambient light (street lights or pitch black, to see or be seen, road commute or mtn biking), speed of riding, etc.
> .


I have also found that you can get away with LESS light in more rural areas because of less trafffic and few/no street lights. This sounds counter-intuitive, however, think of it this way. If there were no cars, no street lights, you could ride by moonlight alone. Once your eyes adjust to the light, your golden.

My commute is in traffic, lots of cars, and areas with/without street lamps. My Little cat-eye is sufficient for the bike path portion, however when mixing it up in traffic, my eyes dont adjust to the dark fast enough to be without a high powered light throwing photons into the shadows.

Just my experience. Plus, when people honk/cut you off, you can roll up in their rear windown and blind them. 

nK


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## BentChainring (Jun 23, 2005)

superjohnny said:


> Thank you for posting this Mark, I agree completely. I was riding home the other night and some guy passed me lit up with about 4 headlights. I was totally blind. I use a 200 lumen light and it's plenty bright enough to be seen in traffic.


Lets separate bike paths from city streets, and be seen with seeing.

If your on a bike path (ours are no lit), a small light is fine, being seen, and seeing 20 feet ahead is fine.

If your in traffic, I dont want to be seen alone. I want to see the rut in front of me that would take me down thus leading me to get run over by the d*ckwad tailing me. Traffic, to me, is about asserting the fact that you belong there, and not on the sidewalks. 

nK


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

Some of the responses I think are people that must live in cycling friendly places where there are huge shoulders or bike paths. I need to see far enough ahead of me in the fringe of the traffic lane or sometimes in the shoulder but hugging the white line as the shoulders are usually small and littered with debris. Delaware is maybe the worst state for bicycle commuting because most of the ******** in pickup trucks like to hunt a little too much and lose themselves a little when there is a defenseless little bike on the side of the road. I need to be seen and maybe even confused for some sort of motor vehicle. Christ if road a dirt bike to work most of the people around here would give me the old rebel yell but a cyclist in tights doesn't go over real well. Sorry if I have offended anyone but I grew up here and have lived here for the last 28 years, it's the truth. When I commuted in Radnor PA I could negotiate ways that all I would need is a light to be seen, ie. a 100-200 lumen light strapped to the front. I wasn't planning on going with anything lower then 400 but since I have never had to ride with this sort of light to help save my life I wanted to know what others thought of 700 lumens on the road. I tend to ride average of 18mph up to 30 or so going down the other side of the bridge. Just to reiterate I encounter zero humans not driving with one hand while talking on the cell phone with the other seeing if they have a booger in their nose with the rearview while driving.


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## BentChainring (Jun 23, 2005)

Doctorsti said:


> Just to reiterate I encounter zero humans not driving with one hand while talking on the cell phone with the other seeing if they have a booger in their nose with the rearview while driving.


+1

Few are actually worthy of the title "human" while behind the wheel. Fleshbag is a more appropriate title.

Ride hard, Ride safe, Keep your U-Lock handy.

nK


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

*darkness*



BentChainring said:


> I have also found that you can get away with LESS light in more rural areas because of less trafffic and few/no street lights. This sounds counter-intuitive, however, think of it this way. If there were no cars, no street lights, you could ride by moonlight alone. Once your eyes adjust to the light, your golden.
> nK


My experience exactly. My lights seem much brighter when there are no streetlights or other light to interfere. If I was riding on very dark roads with no streetlights, I think I would have even less of a need for a very bright light.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

Doctorsti said:


> ...hugging the white line as the shoulders are usually small and littered with debris... ******** in pickup trucks... I tend to ride average of 18mph up to 30 or so going down the other side of the bridge.


OK, 700 lumens is not too much for these conditions. And as others have said, you can always use it on a lower setting if conditions warrant. 

You also need a Dinotte taillight. I think you'll be OK with the 140, but with your conditions there's no reason not to go with the dual which has double the light in a wider beam. 

Even with all that light take care. I've been on nearly pitch black MUTs and had pedestrians jump when I got 15 feet away with my Dinotte 200l. I'm guessing the point source is so bright and low for them that they look away and interpret it as an even brighter light further away. Since they don't look at it their stereo vision is useless. I can imagine auto drivers doing the same. 

I would also advise moderating your speed a bit. A couple of years ago I had a 40 watt halogen system that was good for just about anything- except a roughly seven foot long piece of aluminum flashing about the size of a 2x4 lying across the road. I was doing around 20, and even with all that light by the time it was in my beams and my brain registered 'hazard' it was too late. I couldn't stop. I couldn't swerve. I almost got my front wheel clear with a bunny hop, but it still deflected up into the frame, then I hit it full on with the rear wheel when it came down. I still don't know how I managed to stay upright. I rarely do more than 20MPH now at night.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

tarwheel2 said:


> My experience exactly. My lights seem much brighter when there are no streetlights or other light to interfere. If I was riding on very dark roads with no streetlights, I think I would have even less of a need for a very bright light.


And mine. Widely spaced suburban streetlights interspersed with shade casting trees is when I crank both lights to high, and even 400 lumens doesn't seem like overkill. I can ride with one of them on low on unlighted rural roads or MUTs.


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## thirdin77 (Feb 23, 2007)

I say if you have any doubts, just go with the 700 and run it at 700 only when going downhill or in the absence of oncoming traffic. For the rest of the time, just run it on low which is 175 lumens and medium being 300 lumens. I think that's what Light & Motion told me.

The easiest thing to do, though, is order both, at least take them both outside and see the beam pattern "in person", and then decide. Send back the one you don't want. That means probably $10-20 in shipping charges to get it to your doorstep and $10 to mail it back. This is all assuming you can't just see it at your LBS.

If you really can't "know" without having ridden with both, i.e. having used both, just buy them at REI and if your local REI doesn't have one/both, just order them from rei.com. Return the one you don't want, even if used.

I actually do have the Seca 400 for my flatland night rides though for any descending or higher speeds, I'd probably want the 700 and I'm pretty sure that for your brief descent, you'll find yourself wanting 700 lumens.


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

fyi, the Dinotte 140L tail light is a great light for road riding by yourself (I have one) but it's so bright that even on low people refuse to ride their bikes behind me because it practically blinds them.

While I can imagine the advantage of having 2 lights that form a line (on the 400L tail light) rather than just one, I would worry that it would reach the point of blinding traffic behind me.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

PaulRivers said:


> fyi, the Dinotte 140L tail light is a great light for road riding by yourself (I have one) but it's so bright that even on low people refuse to ride their bikes behind me because it practically blinds them.
> 
> While I can imagine the advantage of having 2 lights that form a line (on the 400L tail light) rather than just one, I would worry that it would reach the point of blinding traffic behind me.


I don't think you have to worry about any Dinotte taillight blinding someone. 140 lumens is a bit less than an average auto taillight, though it does look brighter because it's such a small source. I rode behind someone with a 140L- not in pace line, by the time he was 30 feet away it was bright, but not obnoxious or distracting. I've never seen a 400L in person, but it has a wider beam than the 140L (not necessary for two lane road riding with people coming up behind you, but might be good in city streets where someone could be turning and catch you at an off-angle). And finally, like all 'is it too bright' threads- the 140L comes with 3 brightness settings (6 if you count flashing and steady). I'm sure the 400L has adjustments, too.


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

California L33 said:


> I don't think you have to worry about any Dinotte taillight blinding someone. 140 lumens is a bit less than an average auto taillight, though it does look brighter because it's such a small source. I rode behind someone with a 140L- not in pace line, by the time he was 30 feet away it was bright, but not obnoxious or distracting. I've never seen a 400L in person, but it has a wider beam than the 140L (not necessary for two lane road riding with people coming up behind you, but might be good in city streets where someone could be turning and catch you at an off-angle). And finally, like all 'is it too bright' threads- the 140L comes with 3 brightness settings (6 if you count flashing and steady). I'm sure the 400L has adjustments, too.


I've seen automobile tail lights, and I've seen my dinotte 140L on high, and no automobile tail light puts out that amount of light. You can put your eyeball right up to a car tail light and it's not going to blind you - do that with the 140L and you can't see anything else. Don't shine it directly in your face - it's bright.

I haven't seen a 400L in person and can't comment on it from experience. It might have a different lens, it's brightness settings might be different...I don't know. 

But I also clearly said that my 140L was to bright for people to paceline directly behind me when it's *on low*. I tested it out vs. someone in a car, and they said it was bright, but not to bright - but since I always run it on low anyways, I can't imagine the benefit of spending more money on an even brighter light.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

PaulRivers said:


> I've seen automobile tail lights, and I've seen my dinotte 140L on high, and no automobile tail light puts out that amount of light.


You're both right and wrong. I've got a pair of 140Ls, and I wouldn't put one to my eye. However, auto taillights produce between 40-130 lumens, and brake lights between 280-570 lumens (souce: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_lighting#Rear_position_lamps_.28tail_lamps.29). They don't _appear_ as bright because you can't get your eye near the filament producing the light. You're seeing it spread by the reflector and diffused by the lens. The 140L has a _relatively_ narrow beam compared to an auto where its taillights are nearly the same intensity at any angle. 

Now matter how you parse, though, the 140L is a bright taillight that every cyclist should have. :thumbsup:

Edit: Oops, my bad. If I said taillight as opposed to brake light in the message to you, then I'm wrong and you're completely correct- 130 being less than 140. Sorry.


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

PaulRivers said:


> I've seen automobile tail lights, and I've seen my dinotte 140L on high, and no automobile tail light puts out that amount of light. You can put your eyeball right up to a car tail light and it's not going to blind you - do that with the 140L and you can't see anything else. Don't shine it directly in your face - it's bright.
> 
> I haven't seen a 400L in person and can't comment on it from experience. It might have a different lens, it's brightness settings might be different...I don't know.
> 
> But I also clearly said that my 140L was to bright for people to paceline directly behind me when it's *on low*. I tested it out vs. someone in a car, and they said it was bright, but not to bright - but since I always run it on low anyways, I can't imagine the benefit of spending more money on an even brighter light.


It also depends on how you aim it. I've pacelined behind people with the 140L on high and not had too many issues; as long as I stay tight and in the slipstream, I have no issues- I do start having issues about 15 feet back though. All of us have our dinotte tail lights pointed towards the ground about 50 feet behind our bikes as we've found the large red area on the ground to actually help quite a bit with being visible to vehicles and its still visible for miles as well. Though the vast majority of the time that I am using my taillight is for commuting where I am riding solo and trying to stay alive in traffic.

My neighbor's new lexus with LED taillights are way brighter than my dinotte when he hits his brakes. Those brake lights really do blind ya.


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

ended up getting the Seca 700 ultra. I have not used it yet so I am not sure how it's going to go and I hope I am happy with my decision to spend the extra cash for the light.  I now need to get on the hunt for a decent deal on the dinotte light although I am guessing the Dinotte website is probably the best as they are on sale now. Thanks for all the input on this matter. I will post up pics when I get the light outside. Maybe even a few night bridge shots or something so everyone can see the route I ride.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

Doctorsti said:


> ended up getting the Seca 700 ultra. I have not used it yet so I am not sure how it's going to go and I hope I am happy with my decision to spend the extra cash for the light. I now need to get on the hunt for a decent deal on the dinotte light although I am guessing the Dinotte website is probably the best as they are on sale now. Thanks for all the input on this matter. I will post up pics when I get the light outside. Maybe even a few night bridge shots or something so everyone can see the route I ride.


Great. Give a ride report and let us know how you like it, and if there are any conditions you find the full 700 lumens useful. 

As for Dinotte- you're not going to beat a sale price on their website, and you might want to act quickly. Dinotte isn't like some companies. Though they have regular sales, their stuff isn't always on sale (based on past history).


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## BentChainring (Jun 23, 2005)

My Feedback on L&M's Websight

"If Chuck Norris were a bicycle light, he would be the SECA 700, and would roundhouse kick darkness in the face..."

nK


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

Just an update. I am very frustrated because the light I purchased must not have been new or it came with a DOA charger because I can't recharge my battery. Plug the charger into the wall, plug the battery into the charger, and nothing, nada, zilch. No lights, nothin. I contacted both light and motion and the vendor to see how this can be remedied. On a good note the light is super bright and provides great light on my quick little trip around the neighborhood. I have not commuted with it yet but wanted to make sure the battery was topped off before i took it on a commute where both ways would be dark. This is when I found the problem with the battery charger.


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## BentChainring (Jun 23, 2005)

Sounds like a charger problem. If the battery were dead, the charger would have the error lights on. Hope you get a new one soon!

nK


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## Leopold Porkstacker (Jul 15, 2005)

No, no, it is not overkill; the more light, the better, especially if it is obnoxiously bright _and_ flashing too.


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## BentChainring (Jun 23, 2005)

Leopold Porkstacker said:


> No, no, it is not overkill; the more light, the better, especially if it is obnoxiously bright _and_ flashing too.


Flashing mode on the 700 is obnoxious...


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

BentChainring said:


> Flashing mode on the 700 is obnoxious...


ditto

Lights that bright are not overkill, but flashing lights that bright are. And obnoxious.


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## Tweezak (Dec 6, 2008)

There's a great review of lights here:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/category/lights-shootout/

Measured light output comparisons are about halfway down the page.

Beamshots and side-by-side comparisons are here:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/bike-lights-shootout-beam-pattern-comparison/


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## Doctorsti (Jul 12, 2008)

Just a quick ride report from one morning of commuting with an unknown amount of charge on the battery pack. Still haven't been able to nail down a solution from the seller or manufacturer about why the charger does not work. Now for the report:
WOW, if you have a commute in the dark of morning or evening and there are few or no streetlights but do have tons of oncoming car lights from traffic you need AT LEAST 700 lumens to really think about 16mph or faster. I almost hoped for more with the light on high. Granted I don't know what state of charge the battery is in and I don't know if that even matters really but damn this thing is bright. I can see at least 30-40 feet in front of me very clearly. Beyond that I can see debris coming up but maybe not what it is. I am REALLY REALLY glad I got the 700 and didn't think I was going overboard. It was perfect if not even a little dimmer then I might have liked. I tried the dimmer setting that is 350 lumens and it was fine if I was going slower like the uphill side of the bridge but flat land cruising at 19-20mph was comfortable with the light on high. Where I really felt like I needed this or more light was after a bunch of oncoming traffic constricted my pupils a little and then they had to readjust. I would recommend this light or at least something as bright or brighter to anyone that has to ride to work on public roads with oncoming traffic and likes to go faster then 12mph. Best commuting purchase I have made besides my windproof Cannondale Carbon Max LE clothing. I will post more review when I am sure I have solved my battery problem.


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