# KOPS vs saddle set-back



## rodzghost (Jun 20, 2012)

Alright, so I just got my bike back from the shop after they re-fit me and agreed that the frame they sold me was too big. This was after swapping the 130 mm stem for a 100mm one. 

I am 5'8" with a 31.5" cycling inseam (book against crotch). They sold me a 55cm (size large) 2011 Fuji SL-1 Comp. It's been hard to find the correct sizing, but according to the LBS, the 55cm in this model is the largest frame Fuji makes.

I was able to find charts of other sizes from Fuji, and most of them tell me that a size M (50cm) is what I should be riding. 

The LBS only had a size M/L (53cm) and the owner said I was 1" inch under the height it was made for, but that it was fine. They adjusted the seat post height, moved the saddle all the way forward and dropped the handlebars a couple millimeters. I test rode it and it seems better. The fitter seemed to be moving the plumb forward a little when he measured me, so I'm not even sure my knee is over the pedal spindle in truth.

I was wondering just how important KOPS is vs saddle set-back, since putting the saddle too far forward would increase weight on my hands. The fitter said dropping the handlebars should help with that (which he did).

Any opinions?


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Saddle setback determines where your knees end up.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

rodzghost said:


> Alright, so I just got my bike back from the shop after they re-fit me and agreed that the frame they sold me was too big. This was after swapping the 130 mm stem for a 100mm one.
> 
> I am 5'8" with a 31.5" cycling inseam (book against crotch). They sold me a 55cm (size large) 2011 Fuji SL-1 Comp. It's been hard to find the correct sizing, but according to the LBS, the 55cm in this model is the largest frame Fuji makes.
> 
> ...


Go find another LBS. Seriously. 

This shop first sold you a bike sized too large and now wants to sell you a bike that the saddle has to be positioned all the way forward on the rails, then they tell you dropping the bars will help with weight distribution. That's just plain wrong and indicates a misunderstanding of bike fit. 

To answer your question, since both setback and KOPS use the same saddle adjustment, they're both the same. Which fitters/ cyclists use as a baseline for reference varies, but because saddle lengths can vary (which introduces a variable for measuring two bikes), I prefer KOPS +/-, because (like saddle height), once set to rider preference, it's a constant - unless/ until style of riding changed.

Lastly, FWIW, from what you've offered re: the Fuji, their sizing/ geo doesn't suite your femur length very well. I'd say you're proportioned a shade 'long legs', but not appreciably so, so I can't say what the problem is setting KOPS other than that you require a slacker STA. OR, they compensated excessive reach by moving the saddle forward. Given what you've offered re: this shop/ fitter, that wouldn't surprise me. 

All things considered, I'd return the bike and shop for another brand... and another bike shop.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

rodzghost said:


> Alright, so I just got my bike back from the shop after they re-fit me and agreed that the frame they sold me was too big. This was after swapping the 130 mm stem for a 100mm one.


 They admitted to a mistake. They should fix it by taking the bike back and refunding your money. 
Shoe horning you into a bike that's the wrong size is NOT an acceptable way to fix their mistake.



> I am 5'8" with a 31.5" cycling inseam (book against crotch). They sold me a 55cm (size large) 2011 Fuji SL-1 Comp. It's been hard to find the correct sizing, but according to the LBS, the 55cm in this model is the largest frame Fuji makes.


Did I mention you should get your money back? Stay far far away from that shop. Either they are complete liars or complete idiots. Neither of which you want to deal with.

Are you sure you have a *2011 *SL-1 Comp? Not a 2010? Fuji stopped making the SL-1 Pro/Comp in 2010. The 2011 models switched to SL 1.0/Ultegra, SL 2.0/105, SL 3.0/Tiagra.

My GF has a 2010 SL-1 Pro. Her previous bike was a Fuji as well. I'm no Fuji expert but can attest that their frames run on the large size (compared to other brands). Both her bikes were a size under what she would fit on other brands. So it's not surprising at all that a 55cm is too large for you. 
Fuji lists the 55cm as a XL size frame. 53cm as a L. 50cm as a M. Who in their right mind would ever think someone 5'8" is an XL?

They're telling you a 55cm is the largest bikes Fuji makes? How utterly stupid. So you, being 5'8", will be riding the same size bike as someone 6'2". 
These says they make a 58cm (XXL)
Print Bike Page - SL1-COMP Shimano&modelyear=2010
Print Bike Page - SL 1.0 / Ultegra&modelyear=2011

And a 61cm Print Bike Page - Roubaix 1.0&modelyear=2011



> I was able to find charts of other sizes from Fuji, and most of them tell me that a size M (50cm) is what I should be riding.
> 
> The LBS only had a size M/L (53cm) and the owner said I was 1" inch under the height it was made for, but that it was fine.


The owner shouldn't be telling you that a bike is "made for" a certain height. He should know better. Bikes are built to fit ranges of people with different proprotions.
It's possible your height/proportions fall between the 50cm and 53cm. Both "could" be right for you.



> I was wondering just how important KOPS is vs saddle set-back, since putting the saddle too far forward would increase weight on my hands.


 It is only important as a guide to get you close. Beyond that, you need to adjust to what feels comfortable.



> Any opinions?


Did I mention find a new shop? Even if the 53cm is right for you, I'd have zero confidence that the shop is competent or looking out for your best interests.
At the very least go to another one for a second opinion.


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## MPov (Oct 22, 2010)

FWIW, I am 5'7" with a 31 inch inseam. So like you I have long legs, short torso. I was fitted to a 52 cm Trek Madone. The seatback is set close to KOPS and is about half way on the rails. I am using a shorter stem, a 90mm with a slight rise.
Position over e pedals is important and you need to have room to make adjustments. If you don't have it set right you can eventually kill your knees. So if your seat is all the way forward I would say you need a smaller size or a bike with different geometry.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

I think its better to be 1 inch too tall for a bike, versus 1 inch too short. It seems a little easier to handle a smaller bike than a larger one that you're stuffed up on the rails on. 

I think KOPS is a good start, and a fairly reasonable indicator of how the frame fits you. If you're about in the middle of the rails and feel comfortable with reach with a KOPS fit, its a good start to really dialing in the fit.


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

Going through this myself, went to get fitted yesterday after talking to the LBS about my bike being too big. My seat is all the way forward and I am using an 80mm stem (stock is 110mm) on a 58cm bike. I have long legs short torso and long arms. First person tried to fit me and then got another person to help, concluded the bike was too big, of course they call over the manager who finds a 0 offset seat post to try to help (knee was nowhere near being over the peddel). It helped a little but I still don't know if my knee is over the spindle. He also tilted my seat down to further push me forward but all that does is put more pressure and weight on my hands. Went for a ride today and it was the most uncomfortable I have been. The bike shop messed up (either knowingly gave me the wrong size because they didnt have a 56 like they said or it was a mistake and they picked up the wrong one) and is trying to get me comfortable on a bike which is obviously not sized correctly for me.  They said they would work with me to get me comfortable but I have ridden over 1300 miles now on this bike and have been making changes ever since. I can't really bend my arms when on the hoods, they feel like they are just too far away, maybe like 2-4cm to far away but the bike has been made as small as possible. This is a bit frustrating, its also near impossible to tell what a fitting will feel like when riding, its not until you get tired where you notice a crappy fit or what hurts.


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

Some bike shops are just terrible. Best advice I can give you guys is to find a place that specializes in bike fitting, not selling bikes. It will be more expensive, but it's money well spent. Sometimes these places will fit you on a machine (sort of like a bike) who's only purpose is to tell you what your bike geometry measurements are. Then you can go to the LBS, or look only on the manufacturer website, and find a size that best fits those measurements.

Competitive cyclist also offers a way to measure yourself, and they give you a ball park figure of what size you should be using. Works best if you take these measurements with the help of someone else; it's very detailed.

Fit Calculator - Competitive Cyclist


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## rodzghost (Jun 20, 2012)

jmorgan said:


> Going through this myself, went to get fitted yesterday after talking to the LBS about my bike being too big. My seat is all the way forward and I am using an 80mm stem (stock is 110mm) on a 58cm bike. I have long legs short torso and long arms. First person tried to fit me and then got another person to help, concluded the bike was too big, of course they call over the manager who finds a 0 offset seat post to try to help (knee was nowhere near being over the peddel). It helped a little but I still don't know if my knee is over the spindle. He also tilted my seat down to further push me forward but all that does is put more pressure and weight on my hands. Went for a ride today and it was the most uncomfortable I have been. The bike shop messed up (either knowingly gave me the wrong size because they didnt have a 56 like they said or it was a mistake and they picked up the wrong one) and is trying to get me comfortable on a bike which is obviously not sized correctly for me. They said they would work with me to get me comfortable but *I have ridden over 1300 miles now on this bike and have been making changes ever since. * I can't really bend my arms when on the hoods, they feel like they are just too far away, maybe like 2-4cm to far away but the bike has been made as small as possible. *This is a bit frustrating, its also near impossible to tell what a fitting will feel like when riding, its not until you get tired where you notice a crappy fit or what hurts.*


I feel you on these points. I haven't ridden as much as you, but I really wish I had known better when I bought the bike. 

For future reference, would clipless pedals/shoes affect the fit in any way? I currently have BMX pedals on my bike since they keep my feet in place and were cheap, but I plan on eventually going clipless and saving the BMX pedals for my other bike.

Also, what are signs I should look for to make sure the bike fits? I find myself sliding forward in the saddle when I ride my current bike, but my arms are definitely more bent than when when I had the 55cm. Also, for the first 5 mins or so of my ride, I'm able to keep my hands light on the handlebars, but as I get tired, I find myself resting/leaning harder on them. 

I don't "deathgrip" the bars, but I definitely do put more weight as I get more tired. I try to work on my core strength via planks and reverse planks, and the occasional p90x ab routine, but not sure I'm doing enough of it.

Also, is it normal to get thumb cramps on longer rides? Or is that another sign the bike is too big?

EDIT: clicked the link for bike measurements and here are preliminary results:








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Looks like the bike might actually fit? I took all the measurements myself, so I'll try again tomorrow if my gf will help me...


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

rodzghost said:


> For future reference, would clipless pedals/shoes affect the fit in any way? I currently have BMX pedals on my bike since they keep my feet in place and were cheap,


Yes, cleated cycling shoes attached to clipless pedals will affect the fit. Your saddle height will have to be changed, possibly significantly. And unlike a cleated cycling shoe on a clipless pedal, a street shoe on a platform pedal moves around on the pedal all the time as you ride. This means that establishing KOPS with street shoes on platform pedals was pretty much a waste of time and may well have put the saddle in the wrong fore-aft position.

Also keep in mind that unlike platform pedals, most clipless pedals limit foot rotation to a certain range ("float"), with some clipless pedals centering the foot by spring force. All clipless pedals make inversion and eversion of the foot impossible, which platform pedals freely allow. These differences also affect fit, especially when it comes to certain adjustments made to prevent injury.

Frankly, I think you're way overthinking fit _at this stage in the game_. Some of your aches and pains clearly are the normal aches and pains of getting used to a more bent-over position, others might be fit-related. Don't get me wrong: fit is important. But to be plugging in numbers into fit calculators while riding on platform pedals makes little sense. My suggestion is to get someone knowledgeable and not connected to a bike shop to fit you by observation, then make another run at a more precise fit after you get some miles in and are on clipless pedals.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

rodzghost said:


> I feel you on these points. I haven't ridden as much as you, but I really wish I had known better when I bought the bike.
> 
> For future reference, would clipless pedals/shoes affect the fit in any way? I currently have BMX pedals on my bike since they keep my feet in place and were cheap, but I plan on eventually going clipless and saving the BMX pedals for my other bike.
> 
> ...


Clipless pedals will affect fit, but not sizing, so take this one step at a time and ensure you get sizing right, or (with or without clipless pedals) fit will never be optimal. 

I would suggest disregarding online fit calculators, because the _best_ they'll do is recommend a _range_ of fit parameters that may work for you. From your experiences thus far, I'd say you pretty much already know your range and IMO a bike with a ETT of ~555mm's isn't in that range.

To answer your question about how to determine if a bike fits, in general terms, the saddle would be leveled, positioned roughly centered on the rails, stem length would be 'moderate' for the bikes size as would stem angle/ spacer set up.

For example, while running a 90mm stem is fine on a 52cm bike, it's short on a 58, and one indication that frame reach may be excessive for the rider. Going with a flipped up stem and max spacers is fine, but getting out of the 'moderate' range indicates the frame stack/ HT length isn't ideal for the rider. 

Bottom line, when a fitter resorts to unnecessary compromises to 'make a bike fit' you're apt to never get that fits like a glove fit from it - or worse - always experience pain/ discomfort. 

The remainder of your comments re: weight on the hands/ numbness and fatigue tread into the 'form' area of fit. You can have near ideal fit, but once form degrades, fit issues are likely to surface. Both may be at play in your case, but given the scenario you've laid out re: the LBS, the first ill sized bike and the fitters questionable remedies on the 53's fitting, I'm comfortable staying with my advice to return the bike and look elsewhere.


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## rodzghost (Jun 20, 2012)

wim said:


> Yes, cleated cycling shoes attached to clipless pedals will affect the fit. Your saddle height will have to be changed, possibly significantly. And unlike a cleated cycling shoe on a clipless pedal, a street shoe on a platform pedal moves around on the pedal all the time as you ride. This means that establishing KOPS with street shoes on platform pedals was pretty much a waste of time and may well have put the saddle in the wrong fore-aft position.
> 
> Also keep in mind that unlike platform pedals, most clipless pedals limit foot rotation to a certain range ("float"), with some clipless pedals centering the foot by spring force. All clipless pedals make inversion and eversion of the foot impossible, which platform pedals freely allow. These differences also affect fit, especially when it comes to certain adjustments made to prevent injury.
> 
> Frankly, I think you're way overthinking fit _at this stage in the game_. Some of your aches and pains clearly are the normal aches and pains of getting used to a more bent-over position, others might be fit-related. Don't get me wrong: fit is important. But to be plugging in numbers into fit calculators while riding on platform pedals makes little sense. My suggestion is to get someone knowledgeable and not connected to a bike shop to fit you by observation, then make another run at a more precise fit after you get some miles in and are on clipless pedals.


Well the main reason I'm even plugging numbers in right now, is that the shop sold me a bike that was clearly too large for me in the first place. I just wanted to get a ballpark figure so that when I do get my clipless pedals, I would have some room for these adjustments. 

As it is, both frames that the shop put me on had me with the saddle all the way forward, which apparently means the frame is too large. After putting in my measurements into that calculator however, it looks like the frame I have now should fit. 

Main thing I want is a bike that fits, with or without clipless pedals, if that is even possible. If the saddle is all the way forward means it's too large, then I guess I need a bike with different geo or else an even smaller frame, no matter what my numbers say.

Typically, would getting clipless cause the seat to move back and need to be lowered?


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

Your saddle position is probably the most important position to fit on the bike. It determines your weight distribution, back angle, pelvis rotation and most of all, power output. All the other variables like reach come afterwards. 

You were fitted for a bike too big and now they are trying to push the seat forward to reduce the reach. Given your legs are proportionately longer than your torso, look at the geometries for women's bikes and "endurance"/upright bikes (like Specialized Roubaix/Giant Defy). Trek has two fits for its Madones - the H2 would be better for you. Many women have long legs/short torso and so the bikes tend to have longer headtubes and shorter top tubes (effective) to help shorten the reach. 

Here's some info about saddle position:

Saddle Position
The key goal of saddle position is to maintain good body posture on the bike so as to stabilize both your body and the bike, allow you to breathe comfortably; and generate maximal power output. Proper cycling posture creates a slight forward rotation of the pelvis. This forward rotation will create a neutral spine position, allow activation of core stabilizing muscles, open the abdomen up to facilitate breathing and digestion of food, and improve power output. Posterior tilt limits the abdomen from opening up to allow for deep breathing and digestion, turns off the gluteal muscles resulting in loss of power, and requires flexion of the lumber spine resulting in low back pain. 

There are three components to achieving the proper saddle position: setback, height, and tilt.

1.*Saddle setback* is the fore and aft positioning of the saddle and is affected by the position of the handlebars and the amount of pelvic rotation and back flexibility. To determine the saddle setback position, the cyclist should place his right foot at the 3 o’clock position and drop a plum line from the tibial plateau (the bony prominence at the front of the knee below the kneecap). This line should bisect the pedal axis. The seat should be moved fore or aft to achieve this position. A setback that is too far forward will put increased pressure on the anterior knee as well as position the rider’s center of gravity too far forward creating an unstable position. A setback that is too far backward increases lumbar flexion strain, causes a loss of power, and decreases the hip-torso angle, cramping the front of the rider’s body.

2.*Saddle height* should allow for a comfortable extension of the legs without causing the cyclist to over reach the pedals. A saddle set at the proper height should have a 145-155 degree angle at the knee with the leg at maximum extension. Setting the saddle too low increases the pressure on the anterior knee, leading to anterior knee pain as well as limiting maximum power output. Setting the saddle too high increases the strain on the back of the leg, causes hamstring injuries, and forces the cyclist to rock his pelvis back and forth through the pedal stroke.

3.*Saddle tilt *on a well fitted bike with an appropriate saddle will allow the cyclist to position the saddle quite close to level without causing discomfort. The nose of the saddle should not exceed 2.5 degrees in either direction. A forward-tilting saddle will cause the rider to slide forward, placing increased weight on the arms and forcing him to use the handlebars to stabilize. A backward-tilting saddle will cause the rider’s pelvis to rotate posterior, compromising posture and increasing strain on the lower back and pressure on the saddle.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

rodzghost said:


> Main thing I want is a bike that fits, with or without clipless pedals, if that is even possible.


That's possible, of course. The point of my previous post was you're trying to fit yourself with numbers which all assume a rider with cleated shoes attached to clipless pedals.

Just to give you an example of how the shoe-pedal combo can affect the numbers: I often ride my clipless-pedal bike to the store and back just wearing sneakers. If I wanted the same knee angle riding to the store as I have riding with my cleated cycling shoes, I would have to lower my saddle by 10 mm for the store runs. I don't bother because the trip takes no more than 30 minutes, but that's the number.

As to up or down with the saddle in general: it depends on the thickness of the sole on your street shoe and the thickness of the sole and, more importantly, the amount of camber of your cycling shoe. But saddles generally need to be raised significantly when going from street shoes to cycling shoes. (Cycling shoe camber is the amount of heel rise when you set the cleat of a cycling shoe on a flat surface).

But again (and this is my last post on this): you're overthinking all this in my view. Get someone to look at you and make recommendations, then just ride.


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## rodzghost (Jun 20, 2012)

Thanks for all the help guys. Looks like it's back to bike shopping for me. Hopefully I can find something soon, as I haven't been able to put many miles on lately.


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

Trek H2 geo is awesome for beginners. I'm 5'11" and ride a 56cm H2. The frame fits me like a charm.

A lot of other companies make "relaxed" geometry frames too. Cannondale Synapse, Specialized Roubaix/Ruby/Dolce, and Giant Defy are just a few.


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