# Word on 2011 CAAD 9 production?



## Zachariah

Is this series going to be made in China? If so, I feel sorry for all those longtime Cannondale artisan framebuilders...they are the REASON WHY I bought Cannondales. 

All I can say is Dorel SUCKS. They are a soul-less corporate entity who only cater to the very rich(SuperSix HiMod, Flash MTB) and offer nothing but expensive, downgraded JUNK to those looking to enter this fine sport.


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## Dan Gerous

What? The CAAD9 is still here and still is one of the best value for a quality frame at a good price point. I wont discuss your first paragraph much, it does suck that some workers will lose their job but your second paragraph seems off to me. Even the entry level CAAD8 bikes are far from being junk IMO. I don't think quality will suffer once the bikes are built in Asia. The asian-made Cannondale I have seen were just as well built and manufactured as the US-made ones...


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## Hank Stamper

They're all the same. Nothing against the guys who make 'em here in the US or the frames, but my guess is the word 'artisian' being applied to the people who make them is more romance than reality.
Not to get pedentic and pull out the dictionary or anything but they're mass producted frames, no where near 'artisian' frames.


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## electech

The Asian made Cannondales may be as good but this is one reason I am rushing my upgrade timeframe so I can get a Caad 9-4 that still is made in USA!!! Just call me sentimental but my first C'dale from 1994 was a made in USA beauty and I still have it!! I will confess, a BIG reason my initial purchase of a Cannondale was because of the Hand Made In USA sticker!! Stupid, maybe, but it is what it is.


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## STARNUT

:mad2: 

phuck...... seriously. How many times is this going to come up??????

Being made in the US does in it self not mean better quality; look at the 2010 super vs. the 2008 and 2009.

2nd, what makes you think Dorel is so bad? If the only reason you bought a Cannondale was the manufacturing you've lost sight of what it means to own a bike and the big picture. The fact is, this would've happened with or without Dorel.


What would you say if the 2011 CAAD was lighter, as stiff, and cheaper than the current model but made in Asia? Would they still be selling watered down crap?


Artisan is a bot of a stretch. The CAAD9 is mass produced......... each one is identical........... it's skilled labor but not _unique_ skilled labor.


Starnut


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## thechriswebb

STARNUT said:


> :mad2:
> 
> phuck...... seriously. How many times is this going to come up??????
> 
> Being made in the US does in it self not mean better quality; look at the 2010 super vs. the 2008 and 2009.
> 
> 2nd, what makes you think Dorel is so bad? If the only reason you bought a Cannondale was the manufacturing you've lost sight of what it means to own a bike and the big picture. The fact is, this would've happened with or without Dorel.
> 
> 
> What would you say if the 2011 CAAD was lighter, as stiff, and cheaper than the current model but made in Asia? Would they still be selling watered down crap?
> 
> 
> Artisan is a bot of a stretch. The CAAD9 is mass produced......... each one is identical........... it's skilled labor but not _unique_ skilled labor.
> 
> 
> Starnut



I admit that I was a little disappointed when I heard that CAAD manufacturing was being outsourced, but now I am with Starnut. I am getting weary of the "Asian produced bikes suck" argument. I love love love my USA-made Cannondale, but honestly, I don't think that I could make a legitimate argument that it is a better bike than my Giant. 

The welds are prettier though.......

-Chris-


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## jscumbie

I love the fact that my 2010 Cannondale CAAD9-1 was made here in the US. I wish they would continue to be, but in order for Cannondale to be able to continue to compete and keep prices low, they were apparently forced to move production out of the US. It's easy to get mad at Cannondale (or Dorel) and those big, nasty dirty corporations (grit your teeth when you say "dirty corporations"), but the corporations are not the problem. The question you should ask is "why is it cheaper to move production outside the US"?

This discussion about Cannondale moving production to Asia has come up a number of times since I have started watching this forum. I've hesitated to comment because I didn't want to draw the discussion into politics, so let me walk very softly here. Why is it cheaper to move production outside the US... or to put it another way, why are costs higher here in the US? Basically 3 reasons:

1. Taxes, taxes, taxes and more taxes
2. Regulations
3. Liability / legal issues

The number one reason costs are higher here in the US is the first one, taxes. I started a small business a number of years ago (I was the only employee) and I was amazed at how much time I spent complying with tax laws and how much money was taken out of my business for taxes. A business has to keep us with sales tax, property tax, unemployment tax, social security tax, medicare tax, income tax, etc. Woah! to the business that makes a mistake trying to comply with taxes. There is rarely any mercy shown by the government... so, then a business can find itself dealing with reason 3 above, they have to higher a lawyer and spend money to resolve tax issues.

Anytime you hear a politician talking about taxing the wealthy or finding newer sources of revenue, remember, that even though they promise you on a stack of Bibles that these taxes won't effect the middle class, they are lying to you! All taxes have an effect on everyone! This is basic high school Economics. 

For the past year, our government has threatened to punish businesses that outsource to other countries or "off-shore" their manufacturing. The problem is that businesses are reacting to the laws that Congress passes. Congress makes it difficult and expensive for a business to conduct its business, so the business, in an effort to compete and survive, makes decisions that are best for the business. Our government has become so business unfriendly, that you can't blame those "dirty corporations" for doing what is best for their company.

You want Cannondale and other companies to bring their manufacturing back to the US? Then, when you vote, vote for people who truly believe in small and limited government. Make sure you vote for people who have actually read the Constitution and understand what Amendments 9 and 10 actually mean!

Sorry if this sounds political, but it is hard for me to watch businesses go off-shore. I live in North Carolina where the majority of manufacturing is now gone (textiles, furniture, even a Dell assembly plant). I want these businesses to stay in the US. I want to buy Cannondale bikes built in the US, but that is not going to happen as long as we have people running our government that have no idea how a business runs, who have no idea how taxes affect people and businesses, and who have no idea how an economy works.


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## zamboni

2010 would the final year for Cannondale to produce caad 9 in the U.S and the trend is most MFG will move their product offshore to take advantage of lower labor cost. If you disagreed with the dircetion of Cannondale where they headed then don't buy their product simple as that.


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## asad137

Anyone want to take bets on whether the CAAD9 prices will go down once they start making them in Asia?

Asad


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## georgewerr

Hi jscumbie,

You dont think it has anything to do with payrole, They will get to pay there asian workers pennys compared to what they pay there U.S.A. workers, these asians will be able to afford to buy a new cardboard box to move into after they get there new job with Cannondale.

I hope everyone who supports this move feel real proud of there suport to mankind to live a decent life.

George


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## coupon

I am sure they are paying less for the workers, but the standard of living are also much much cheaper in asia as well. Maybe cardboard box money in US can support a decent living in asian countries. I love my CAAD9 which is made in USA, but I will not hesitate to pick up a CAAD10 or CAAD11 later down the road if they can offer improvement over what I have. Despite of the countries that they are made in.


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## zamboni

asad137 said:


> Anyone want to take bets on whether the CAAD9 prices will go down once they start making them in Asia?
> 
> Asad


Are you kidding me that was one of the main reason Cannondale moved their production line to increase profit margin.


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## ping771

georgewerr said:


> Hi jscumbie,
> 
> You dont think it has anything to do with payrole, They will get to pay there asian workers pennys compared to what they pay there U.S.A. workers, these asians will be able to afford to buy a new cardboard box to move into after they get there new job with Cannondale.
> 
> I hope everyone who supports this move feel real proud of there suport to mankind to live a decent life.
> 
> George


Considering your inability to spell and use correct English ("payrole"???, "there" instead of "their"), maybe you went to school in a cardboard box. 

Asian workers, specifically Chinese workers from the mainland, which is what is at issue here, are paid significantly less than American workers, are getting paid what they would get paid if they are doing another similar job in China. Most goods and services in China are significantly less, and the average salary is about $160/month (1120 yuan) for the average Chinese worker. An inexpensive meal in China is around 5-7 yuan, a dollar. The wage disparity sounds appalling compared to American standards but you are comparing apples to oranges. Chinese people (consumers and workers alike in China) believe that labor should be cheap. 

What you should be concerned about, and what is more appalling is the fact that Americans make a lot more money than the Chinese but only save only 6.9% of their salary (this figure is from this year, which is high, due mostly because of the crappy economy/credit crunch, Americans have finally wised up--several years ago it was -0.7% (that's negative .7%)). The average mainland Chinese citizen saves a whopping 46-50% of his or her salary. And no, most Chinese people don't live in cardboard boxes. Their work and savings ethic is completely different than ours.


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## Dan Gerous

Plus they don't need 3 cars per houshold including a 60,000$ SUV, a 6 bedrooms houses even if they have 1 or 2 kids, double garages, fancy huge LCD tv to watch football and Nascar...


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## georgewerr

You can justify it any way you like but putting more U.S. workers out of work for the betterment of corporate profits is not going to help our economy, I don't expect corporate to care about our citizens but I would expect our citizens to care about one another.


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## Hank Stamper

georgewerr said:


> You can justify it any way you like but putting more U.S. workers out of work for the betterment of corporate profits is not going to help our economy, I don't expect corporate to care about our citizens but I would expect our citizens to care about one another.


Do you think our economy and standard of living would be anything even close to what it is had we hung on to all the manufacturing jobs and didn't shift our workforce away from what it was in the early/mid 1900's? Hint: The answer is no.

Yes keeping up as a leader in having a diverse and modern economy is very painful for a lot of people who lose jobs and no one wants to see that. But hanging on to all the low paid jobs in the name of looking out for citizens, as a whole, simply does not make any sense what so ever.

An American company with manufacturing in Asia provides a heck of a lot more jobs to Americans than an out of business one does.


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## STARNUT

georgewerr said:


> Hi jscumbie,
> 
> You dont think it has anything to do with payrole, They will get to pay there asian workers pennys compared to what they pay there U.S.A. workers, these asians will be able to afford to buy a new cardboard box to move into after they get there new job with Cannondale.
> 
> I hope everyone who supports this move feel real proud of there suport to mankind to live a decent life.
> 
> George



Seriously. Could you be any more uninformed? Any? Why not go full circle and claim unsafe working conditions and say that Cannondale is going to chain them to a bench for 22 hours a day?

_IF_ you were to have a look at an Econ 101 book you'd find something called purchasing power parity. For the less inclined have a look at _The Economist_ in 09/1986 and every year since. The _Big Mac Index_ will show that it's all about relativity and economies of scale. _IF_ you were to spend the 20 minutes reading it you'd see that the pennies we pay them for manufacturing is all they need the have a descent, livable wage. If you're not inclined to the _Big Mac Index_ the hip new _iPod Index_ and _Starbucks Index_ will show you the same thing. They all show you that these goods are affordable in various countries at prices relative to their economies of scale. Ping771 pointed this out above.

However, simple say they can now buy a new cardboard box to live in is short sighted, narrow minded and simple proves you should not be taken seriously. If your world view is _so_ based on American Exceptionalism that is looks like this









you've got a problem.....


I want to know if you're willing to buy an inferior product because it's US made? Would you buy a Cannondale over another bike if it was heavier, less stiff, broke more, less comfy, _and_ significantly more expensive than an asian made alternative? I care about fellow Americans but not enough to subsidies them................ it's ironic that a majority of people who make the "care" argument are also against any healthcare reform............ go figure.

Starnut

edit: wrong map :lol:


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## fireplug

I love the fact my Six13 was made in the U.S.....it looks great sitting next to my Nissan in the garage.


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## bandoulu

fireplug said:


> I love the fact my Six13 was made in the U.S.....it looks great sitting next to my Nissan in the garage.



Nice...:thumbsup:


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## merckxman

Well, if things are the same quality wise, or even better as someone has suggested, than I look forward to seeing if Cannondale/Dorel will have the courage to replace the MADE IN USA with a MADE IN CHINA (or Taiwan) on the seattube on these frames.


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## electech

Good grief, it is a shame that one cannot lament the passing of the USA Cannondales without all this. What is even sadder is the fact that so few care. Yes, Americans will still be designing the C'dales, at least for now. No, they will not be any cheaper but the bottom line will look a lot better. I understand the concept of moving stuff and how supposedly, eventually, things should equalize as other countries standards come up and ours go down. Hopefully, we won't ever outsource our LBS's to improve the bottom line!

Eventually, I am afraid that we might see the following scenario. What manufacturing know how we have not sold, has been stolen. All manufacturing will be done overseas and the USA will become just a user with no manufacturing base. Then, in a time of need or want, we will be in a pickle when these other countries say "NO" or "Backordered"!!! We need to have just a little common sense in what we move offshore but then again, it is just bicycles!! Sorry for getting off topic.


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## chirobike

Wow...and I thought this thread was about 2011 Cannondales.

I want to weigh in...I love that map Starnut-almost right except I would expand the Eastern Europe subtitle to 52% of America.

As for healthcare reform since that's in my field...is a bogus arguement. There is nothing being reformed (just reorganized) and if you guys want to tackle that subject I'm more than willing to argue. First before anyone spouts off about this pile of crap....READ THE DAMN BILL. Then you can have an intelligent observation-until then stick to bicycles. 

Cannondale has to focus on making money or there won't be a Cannondale. Just like Litespeed has to go carbon to stay competitive. There's value in the brand and design, not so much in how you can further manipulate 6061 aluminum. If you care about American workers then remember there are marketing, sales, factory and management that are all still in the US and they will be out of work if Cannondale can't make some dough. Also, Cannondale is an American based company but sells bikes worldwide. They have to source internationally for a lot more reasons than just to keep prices down. China is a huge market and perhaps they may not be able to sell & expand into their market unless they relocate some production over there. We do the same things here.

Bottom line is things change and if Cannondale makes better product they will do well b/c we will buy it. If not then they should go the way of the Dodo bird and a new bike company will take their place.


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## georgewerr

Hi chirobike,

I agree this healthcare bill is watered down and I would like to see real reform. I am a minority in my feelings on healthcare and I know this will start a debate that will not change anyones mine but here we go. I feel we need to get ride of all for profit insurance company's and let the government perform this task. I don't like a for profit company deciding whether a proceeder will benefit there bottom line. 

Cannondale is owned by Durel a Canada company and pay there taxes to Canada. You are right there are designers and other employees that are Americans but will have a much reduced workforce after there throw breaking up this fine enterprise.

George


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## georgewerr

Hi Starnut,

You are assuming I'm a projectionist I'm not. I'm ok with buying from overseas corporations products from country's that pay there people a decent wage (England,France and Germany are a few) I just cant stand all the large corporations going to Asia and mexico to name a few just to get away from paying a fair living wage.

George


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## Hank Stamper

georgewerr said:


> Cannondale is owned by Durel a Canada company and pay there taxes to Canada.



That is incorrect. I work for a Canadian owned company here in the US. I don't pay squat to Canada. And that's the way it works, I and my company are no exception.


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## georgewerr

Hi Hank Stamper,

So you are saying your Canadian company pays THERE income tax to the U.S. and not to Canada.

George


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## Hank Stamper

No.

I don't work for a Canadian company. I work for a Canadian owned company. Like Cannondale.

American companies pay taxes to America. Canadian companies pay taxes to Canada.


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## zamboni

Hank Stamper said:


> No.
> 
> I don't work for a Canadian company. I work for a Canadian owned company.
> 
> 
> I don't get it.


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## are

I like that my CAAD9 is made in the USA, and it certainly made me feel better about buying it, but I probably would have bought it anyway if it were made in Asia. If I were really insistent on a US made frame, there are other options, like Spooky and Co-motion, for example. I think Spooky is even in the same general price range.

Companies like Dorel will move production to Asia as long as there are economic or other business reasons (like quality control for the carbon frames). If nobody buys the Asian made CAAD9, then Dorel will find out they made a mistake. However, since people in general seem very willing to buy foreign made goods as they're typically cheaper than US made ones, Dorel is unlikely to suffer too much.

are


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## georgewerr

Hi Are,

Thank You for the info. I checked out spookys web site (I had not heard of them) I see there is a dealer in Mass. I think I will need to take a road trip.

George


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## Hank Stamper

zamboni said:


> Hank Stamper said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> I don't work for a Canadian company. I work for a Canadian owned company.
> 
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> I work for ABC. They are an American company, headquartered, registered ect in American, with American employees who pay American taxes. They are owned by XYZ, a Canadian company. It's not rocket surgery.
Click to expand...


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## terbennett

Hank Stamper said:


> That is incorrect. I work for a Canadian owned company here in the US. I don't pay squat to Canada. And that's the way it works, I and my company are no exception.


I am a minority also (I'm African American) and I see the Health Care Reform bill as hogwash. Now I will have to pay for my healthcare while paying more in taxes for the next person to have that opportunity. Sounds familiar? It doesn't change anything. Some elementary school calculating will tell you that it's the same problem but instead of a private company taking your money, the government will. The differencebetween now and later is who is getting the money. Even worse, if it's the government, they can raise the taxes when they feel like it without the masses even knowing what's going on.

Anyway, I would buy a Asian sourced CAAD frame. A CAAD frame is a CAAD frame regardless of where it's made. I doubt C-dale would risk putting their name on a lesser product even to save a few dollars. All of their carbon bikes are already made their and most of those are world class models. "Made in the USA" on the seat stays? Are the elitists really that upset about this? It probably won't say anything on the seats stays- which is good. The bike will have a cleaner, less cluttered look. Honestly, who are you trying to impress? Nearly 90% of high end bikes are made in Asia and those bikes are just as good as the US made ones (some are even better). Trek Madones, Litespeeds, Waterfords and a ton of small domestic frame builders make their steeds here and they don't post a huge label on their frames. It's sad that C-dale is leaving, but isn't the goal of a business to increase profits? In the end, the headquarters is here and the C-dale employees that are working here in the States will have more opportunities because the company will make more money. If you're not convinced, you should look into purchasing from another company.


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## terbennett

Hank Stamper said:


> That is incorrect. I work for a Canadian owned company here in the US. I don't pay squat to Canada. And that's the way it works, I and my company are no exception.


+1.....I am a minority also (I'm African American) and I see the Health Care Reform bill as hogwash. Now I will have to pay for my healthcare while paying more in taxes for the next person to have that opportunity. Sounds familiar? It doesn't change anything except bring us more in line with communism. We already pay for every uninsured person who goes to the hospital through the hospital costs and our insurance premiums. A doctor will help you whether you have insurance or not. Some elementary calculating will tell you that it will be the same problem but instead of a private company taking your money, the government will- which is dangerous. The difference in now and later is who is getting the money. Even worse, if it's the government, they can raise the taxes when they feel like it and justify it by cutting education, fire and law enforcement. They've done it time and time again with some pathetic reason for doing so.

Anyway, I would buy a Asian sourced CAAD frame. A CAAD frame is a CAAD frame regardless of where it's made. I doubt C-dale would risk putting their name on a lesser product even to save a few dollars per frame. All of their carbon bikes are already made their and most of those are world class models. "Made in the USA" on the seat stays? Are the elitists really that upset about this? It probably won't say anything on the seats stays- which is good. The bike will have a cleaner, less cluttered look. Honestly, who are you trying to impress? Nearly 90% of high end bikes are made in Asia and those bikes are just as good as the US made ones (some are even better). Trek Madones, Litespeeds, Waterfords and a ton of small domestic frame builders make their steeds here and they don't post a huge label on their frames. It's sad that C-dale is leaving, but isn't the goal of a business to increase profits? In the end, the headquarters is here and the C-dale employees that are working here in the States will have more opportunities because the company will make more money. If you're not convinced, you should look into purchasing from another company.


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## chirobike

+1 and add three (?)

I'm even a bigger minority since I'm "Asian American" and I've never received any benefit from there being less of me than of some white or black or hispanic. In fact, I've never asked for anything or would accept it if it were offered. That being said...that's the rub. Healthcare reform is being "sold" as a fix for minorities, underinsured and uninsured w/o insurance. Well, from a provider perspective the "people" are being lied to..."getting healthcare" is a FAR DIFFERENT arguement than "paying" for healthcare. There is no serious plan on increasing the number of providers, care givers, hospitals, public health facilities, etc. So if you got more people crammed into a "supposedly" over stuffed system already how is it supposed to get cheaper? Better? If hospitals that are already going broke get paid "LESS" for services they now perform ... how are they supposed to stay open? If doctors get paid "LESS" but still owe more for malpractice, education, etc. ... who would want to be a Doctor? Attrition? Anyway, this like most legislation is not for the people but the politicians and is simply a power grab to move a segment of the economy into the executive branch's control vs legislative where it has to have more accountability. 

Onto Cannondale...look Cannondale is a brand and whether it makes products out of China or Taipei it really doesn't matter. They help employ people through all levels of the industry worldwide...bike shops included. If they gotta build overseas to stay afloat...more power to them. How many people in the US have jobs b/c Giant makes some nice products and sells them here? Many. 

Anway..."HealthScare" bill passed the House so it's now onto the Senate where everyone can be bribed into this piece of crap. Then everyone will get mad and vote the Dem's out of office and we kill this legislation and then we are back to scratch without any real progress. Politics suck and I'd prefer to watch sausage being made as the ol' sayin goes. 

I would support legislation to give everyone a $5K stimulus check to get a new bicycle so we can cut down on carbon (haaahhhaaaa) and stay healthy.


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## jlandry

I'm not a minority, nor do I work in a mine.
Do Trek make gud bieks?


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## Bluebikes

*US employees... maintaining the quality?*



STARNUT said:


> :mad2:
> 
> phuck...... seriously. How many times is this going to come up??????
> 
> Being made in the US does in it self not mean better quality; look at the 2010 super vs. the 2008 and 2009.
> 
> 2nd, what makes you think Dorel is so bad? If the only reason you bought a Cannondale was the manufacturing you've lost sight of what it means to own a bike and the big picture. The fact is, this would've happened with or without Dorel.
> 
> 
> What would you say if the 2011 CAAD was lighter, as stiff, and cheaper than the current model but made in Asia? Would they still be selling watered down crap?
> 
> 
> Artisan is a bot of a stretch. The CAAD9 is mass produced......... each one is identical........... it's skilled labor but not _unique_ skilled labor.
> 
> 
> Starnut


I agree that the new Caad's will in fact be improved and better in 2011. It's as simple as money spent in R&D.
I do wonder, however:
Has Cannondale been able to maintain a productive and quality product when the work environment is suffering? Do they employ people making these last few '10's that are not "scheduled" to lose their job? What is their motivation otherwise?

Blue


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## cryoplasm

Not if the last year's Six Alloy was anything to go by.


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## usa777

*Cannondale*

One of the main reasons that Dorel is closing the Cannondale factory is that it is out of date. The past few years they have made less and less AL bikes because Carbon is what is selling. Cannondale never made the HUGE investment in building Carbon bikes in the USA. They did do some Carbon building but never made the investment that was needed. To compete against Trek, Giant, Specialized and etc... Cannondale has to move production to the same places the other brands are making bikes. It does suck that the bikes will not be US made anymore but that what most American ask for. They are looking for the best deal and the best price. I know some people are willing to pay for US made bikes. Seven, Litespeed, Intense, Waterford, 5 and 6 Series Trek Madone's are just some of the bikes still made in the USA. I am just glad that Cannondale is not closing all together. That would even put more people out of work. I do believe this is going to be good for the new CSG (Cycling Sports Group Schwinn-GT-Mongoose-Cannondale). Maybe they will be able to hire some of the builders back to do other things in Bedford. Bedford is going to be the new Testing Center and Service center for all the brands.


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## ping771

Zachariah said:


> Is this series going to be made in China? If so, I feel sorry for all those longtime Cannondale artisan framebuilders...they are the REASON WHY I bought Cannondales.
> 
> All I can say is Dorel SUCKS. They are a soul-less corporate entity who only cater to the very rich(SuperSix HiMod, Flash MTB) and offer nothing but expensive, downgraded JUNK to those looking to enter this fine sport.


All I can say is, "thank you" to the original poster, Zachariah, You titled your thread innocently as a question about when the 2011 CAAD 9 would be coming in, then launched your views about bike craftsmanship, which has nothing to do about CAAD 9 bikes (really) but is a tirade against Dorel and opinions about Asian made bikes, which, of course, fueled dozens of posts about geo-politics, economics, third world poverty, and other non-pertinent topics, all of which have nothing to do with 2011 Cannondale CAAD bikes. 

Can we just end this thread or answer the initial question on the thread?


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## ameijer

I understood that the tubes were made and formed in Asia, and possibly the frame or rear triangle, and then finished up here....i thought that was currently happening anyway.

At least that's how my LBS guy explained it, and he's been all over the cycling business world in his career, so I figured he knew....


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## zamboni

Starnut,

Can you clarify if the materials is pre-fab in Asia then ship to States?


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## STARNUT

nope. Don't see how it matters.

Starnut


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## ameijer

I think it matters, in the sense that stores are all "hey man, those frames are made in the United States", when really, they aren't.

I once worked in the floral industry in Ontario. We were 30 minutes from Niagara Falls. We would receive a 53' trailer load of tropical plants from Florida, and send a bunch of em right back into the US (to Pittsburgh) within the hour. Before they left our building, we were required by law to put a "Grown in Canada" sticker on each pot", because technically, they spent a couple hours 'growing' in Canada.

I'm not worried, I'm still looking at getting a 'dale, but I don't like false salesmanship.

(if in fact it's all true).


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## jlandry

Before they left our building, we were required by law to put a "Grown in Canada" sticker on each pot", because technically, they spent a couple hours 'growing' in Canada.

That's hillarious.


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## cryoplasm

Aluminium derives from bauxite ore, alot of it mined in Australia these days. Surely "Naturally-Made in Oz" too?


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## 2ndGen




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## Dan Gerous

You put the wrong logos, they should say GT.


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## 2ndGen

Dan Gerous said:


> You put the wrong logos, they should say GT.


:lol: 

Found it on WW's. 

Wondered if anybody knew anything about a CAAD10.

Whatever that thing is (if not a Cannondale), 
it reminds me of a Dogma with it's steeply raked stays.


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## Dan Gerous

That looks like a student learning a CAD drawing software did it... both graphically and technically.


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## stufred

Nobody said anythimg about the E.P.A. restrictions. China has almost no pollution control and does not plan to do anything soon. Taxes are small time compared to pollution control. Also construction costs are cheaper, you lose a hand and can't work, too bad. Next!


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## T K

Please tell me that's not a new Caad 10. Looks like my '92 GT tequesta mb. I like GT and love Cdale but, nuh uh.


----------



## Devastator

Zachariah said:


> Is this series going to be made in China? If so, I feel sorry for all those longtime Cannondale artisan framebuilders...they are the REASON WHY I bought Cannondales.
> 
> All I can say is Dorel SUCKS. They are a soul-less corporate entity who only cater to the very rich(SuperSix HiMod, Flash MTB) and offer nothing but expensive, downgraded JUNK to those looking to enter this fine sport.


Dude you are so wrong. The design of the 2010 Super is better than the 09, making it a better bike reguardless if its made in the US or China. Personally with the System and Six, I think it was a step back in bike design, not manufacturing. Its a line up change to cater to what the consumer wants. I am very excited for my 2010 Supersix, wont have hand made in the US, but its closer to what I want, which is to be more like a System.

Edit: Forgot the part where both my hand made in the US bike failed me. Carbon cracking and Housing stop coming out. Also dust fibers in the resin, decals on crooked, all things I experienced with the famed hand made in the US.


----------



## cryoplasm

That has to be the shittest looking thing.


----------



## junior varsity

Just so everyone knows, that's not even close to a CAAD 10.


----------



## cryoplasm

Of-course, Hydroforming has only just recently been invented. NOT!


----------



## shotojs78

my lbs told me that the head tube for caad 2011 would be the same size than super is....


----------



## LOUISSSSS

Devastator said:


> Dude you are so wrong.
> 
> Edit: Forgot the part where both my hand made in the US bike failed me. Carbon cracking and Housing stop coming out. Also dust fibers in the resin, decals on crooked, all things I experienced with the famed hand made in the US.


i agree wholeheartedly. I've tested out buying products "made in the usa" with the PERCEIVED better quality, but nope, things fail faster than anything made in other countries. Its a shame the USA is charging a premium for products that are made in their own country compared to items made abroad that are as well as or better made.

I have to say i've examined the welds on my "made in taiwan/china" bikes and they are beautifully welded. I've test ridden, the synapse, six, roubaix, tarmac (all made abroad) and they all feel amazing.


----------



## stufred

So evrything foriegn made is better? Nothing made in the United States is worth buying? Are you a welder? C'mon! You are killing me! Thats equivalent to saying all blondes are dumb. Tall people are smarter than short people. Waterford, Serotta, and any other American made bike is inferior because of its origin. So in other words Americans are inferior as well. Except for Lance and Levi and the bikes they ride, right?


----------



## LOUISSSSS

stufred said:


> So evrything foriegn made is better? Nothing made in the United States is worth buying? Are you a welder? C'mon! You are killing me! Thats equivalent to saying all blondes are dumb. Tall people are smarter than short people. Waterford, Serotta, and any other American made bike is inferior because of its origin. So in other words Americans are inferior as well. Except for Lance and Levi and the bikes they ride, right?


aw did you make an account just for that post? lol nice.

yes at the same $$ ratio, you can get a higher end bike made abroad than in america. By higher end i mean better components OR better quality frame. review the mountain bike cannondale forums and you would've seen cannondale made in USA frames were cracking left and right. My 3x bikes made in asia have been great


----------



## stufred

LOUISSSSS said:


> aw did you make an account just for that post? lol nice.
> 
> yes at the same $$ ratio, you can get a higher end bike made abroad than in america. By higher end i mean better components OR better quality frame. review the mountain bike cannondale forums and you would've seen cannondale made in USA frames were cracking left and right. My 3x bikes made in asia have been great


You rate everything made in the U.S.A buy the quality of your Cannondale cross frame, makes sense.


----------



## LOUISSSSS

stufred said:


> You rate everything made in the U.S.A buy the quality of your Cannondale cross frame, makes sense.


nope, have had other experiences with made in the USA also, but i don't go around hunting for made in USA products. i actually prefer NOT to pay the premium for it, since i won't be getting anything in return for it. 

and what Cannondale cross frame do you speak of?
and its by, not buy.


----------



## stufred

You must be very wealthy and not worry wether or not the economy of the U.S.A. You probably do not supply a product or service of any kind to the people of the U.S.A. It must be nice to be so independent from everyone everywhere.


----------



## TallCoolOne

stufred said:


> Tall people are smarter than short people.


I'm 6' 7" and I fully believe the above statement. I think this thread is taking itself WAY too seriously. We're talking bikes here people. It's a bummer the U.S. is losing one of its great American-made brands, but Cannondale will still put out great bikes. 

Since we are already way out there in terms of where this thread is going, I am going to go a completely different direction. Would you rather buy from a foreign company with a product made in America or would you rather buy from an American company that is made in a foreign country? For example, would you rather buy a Toyota made in Princeton, Indiana or a GM product that may be made in Mexico or Canada? Do you want American execs and stock holders and foreign workers to make money? Do you want foreign execs and stock holders and American workers to make money? That's what this all comes down to.


----------



## STARNUT

Dewd..... Stufred, read the whole thread from the beginning homie.


Your knowledge of economics and the economy (of scale and in general) are about as deep as a frisbee.

You had better be riding a Madone....... or so help me, I'll call you a hypocrite without flenching. Louis' comments are apropos. He sees that the country of manufacture has nothing to do with the performance of the product (in this case). IE, you ain't winning a race based on where your frame is manufactured.

The "helping the economy" argument can easily be turned the other direction and is more tired than Paris Hilton nip slip pics........ way to many way to often. Get a new argument or read the thread and take the "Markets" class. Should be Econ 2 or 3 something.

Starnut


----------



## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> i agree wholeheartedly. I've tested out buying products "made in the usa" with the PERCEIVED better quality, but nope, things fail faster than anything made in other countries. Its a shame the USA is charging a premium for products that are made in their own country compared to items made abroad that are as well as or better made.
> 
> I have to say i've examined the welds on my "made in taiwan/china" bikes and they are beautifully welded. I've test ridden, the synapse, six, roubaix, tarmac (all made abroad) and they all feel amazing.


My Trek 1.5 is made in China. 
My Cannondale CAAD9 7 is made in The U.S.A.

I have to say that the CAAD blows the Trek away in it's construction and in it's design. 
Not saying I don't love my Trek. I love it. It's ride is compared to bikes cost twice as much. 
But, when it comes to the quality of build, the CAAD is simply superior. 

When I held up my frameset (before I gave it back so that they could build it), 
it was a revelation to hold something up that was that light. It was beautifully crafted. 
It was gorgeous. The seat/chainstays look like they were actually 
"designed" and not just measured and cut and spliced together. 
Huge difference from my Trek. And again, I'm saying this as a Trek Fanboy.

Now, having said that, I don't automatically assume that a place of origin determines quality. 
But when I want power tools, I know that Bosch makes the best. Their made in Germany & throughout Europe. 

I know that American tool manufacturers that were bought out by Japanese/Chinese companies 
have fallen dramatically in the quality construction of their tools. That's just a fact. And I'm not talking 
about 1 or 2 odd companies, but major players like Milwaukee and the like. 

It'd be a shame if it happened to Cannondale. 

I'm very aware that the overwhelming majority of bikes are made in Asia. 
I have no problem with that. I have no issue believing that they have the 
technical skill to produce the same quality bike that we are producing now. 

The question however is, will they want to? 
Or will they go the way of the power tool manufacturers? 
Only time will tell. 

I know this, I got my last of the Made In "The U.S.A." CAADs. 
The only thing that I missed out on was it not being a BB30 frame, 
but that's okay and I've made my peace with that. 
I'm just happy that I got my BBQ CAAD9 frameset to begin to build a great bike with.
And I'm ecstatic that it was manufactured here. I'll ride that sucker with a lot of pride.


----------



## STARNUT

you, my friend, are confusing correlation with causality. You're assuming that because the Trek is Asia made that it represents their ability for alloy bike manufacturing. Further, you're assuming that Trek could make a 1.2 like the CAAD9. Not happnin'.

Additionally on the 1st assumption, you're assuming that because the Asians _don't_ make a CAAD9 means they _can't_. Not the case..... Trek asked for a non butted, qucikly welded, _cheap_, alloy frame. That's what they got. What makes you think that had they gone to the manufacturer and had them reverse engineer a Cannondale CAAD9 that it could not be done?

Starnut


----------



## ph0enix

2ndGen said:


> I know that American tool manufacturers that were bought out by Japanese/Chinese companies have fallen dramatically in the quality construction of their tools. That's just a fact. And I'm not talking about 1 or 2 odd companies, but major players like Milwaukee and the like.


I don't know the first thing about tool manufacturers but you might be comparing apples to oranges. Cannondale was not bought out by a Japanese, Chinese or Asian, for that matter, company. Their parent is Dorel which is Canadian owned. Only the manufacturing has been (mostly) moved overseas. As long as Cannondale does a good job in terms of QC, this could be a win-win for everyone. The time will tell though...


----------



## PhD in Cycology

I'm humored by all the wild assumptions and crazy opinions being thrown around... because I know the ending to this story. And all of you will know the end of this story in a couple months--just be patient. Everyone keeps asking if the new CAAD bikes or the new Super Six will be as good now. It seems that very few have thought about the possibility that the product might be better... actually a lot better... good things come to those who wait.


----------



## cryoplasm

Trek 1.5 and CAAD9 frames are not a fair comparison, despite where they're made. The Trek 1.5 is a cheaper frame, right through from design to manufacture.

Judging from how the SuperSix has progressed, right up to manufacturing abroad, one should expect the same from the CAAD series when production moves elsewhere. Hopefully and fingers crossed.

As bicycle enthusiasts, I feel one needs to be more concerned that companies don't make blunders or design flaws or add unnecessary gimmicks in their products, in the continuing bid to strive for evolution.


----------



## STARNUT

I know this story ends too   

Starnut


----------



## ph0enix

STARNUT said:


> I know this story ends too
> 
> Starnut


Spill the beans!


----------



## STARNUT

yeah....... no :hand: 

Suffice it to say, every year Cannondale's new bikes are better than the previous years. 2011 will be no different.

Starnut


----------



## 2ndGen

STARNUT said:


> you, my friend, are confusing correlation with causality. You're assuming that because the Trek is Asia made that it represents their ability for alloy bike manufacturing. Further, you're assuming that Trek could make a 1.2 like the CAAD9. Not happnin'.
> 
> Additionally on the 1st assumption, you're assuming that because the Asians _don't_ make a CAAD9 means they _can't_. Not the case..... Trek asked for a non butted, qucikly welded, _cheap_, alloy frame. That's what they got. What makes you think that had they gone to the manufacturer and had them reverse engineer a Cannondale CAAD9 that it could not be done?
> 
> Starnut


Could you please quote me?

Show me what I wrote that states that I assume what you just wrote I assume? 

A) I never wrote that Asians couldn't produce bikes as well as Americans
B) I was clearly pointing out the differences in two specific bikes. How you jumped to me speaking "generally" is beyond me. 
C) I stated undeniable facts (not what I "thought" was the case or what I predicted nor what coulda'/woulda'/shoulda' been). 

If you don't think that the CAAD9 frame is a superior frame to the Trek 1.X series frames in every year that the two have been produced, cool. 
I know better (and I probably know a whole lot _less _about bikes in general than you). 

In the case of the American made CAAD9 VS the Chinese made Trek 1.X frame, CAAD wins hands down. 

Period. 

It's better. 
It.
Just.
Is. 

But to each his/her own!

:thumbsup: 

Now, as for how Cannondale keeps up the quality of it's production as compared to it's current practices? 
As I wrote earlier, we'll see about that. 
I never decided either way. 
I left that option open giving them the chance to prove themselves. 

Different owners don't always carry over the same business practices. 
That doesn't just go for the rest of the world...it goes for bike manufacturers too.


----------



## 2ndGen

ph0enix said:


> I don't know the first thing about tool manufacturers but you might be comparing apples to oranges. Cannondale was not bought out by a Japanese, Chinese or Asian, for that matter, company. Their parent is Dorel which is Canadian owned. Only the manufacturing has been (mostly) moved overseas. As long as Cannondale does a good job in terms of QC, this could be a win-win for everyone. The time will tell though...


For me P, business is business is business is business. 
Whether it's tools or bikes or sneakers or Carhartt clothing. 
It's been my experience more times than not that when production 
has been switched from America to Asia, quality has gone down. 
Again, I can only speak from my own personal experiences. 

As for Cannondale being bought out by a Canadian country, 
their taking production out of The U.S. and sending it to Asia 
only shows me one thing; production cost considerations. 
Same or "almost" same product built cheaper=more profit. 

Will the quality remain as high as it is now or will it actually improve? Again, only time will tell. 

Right now, the best entry-level aluminum frame is undeniably made in The U.S.A.

Fact. 



Don't know about anybody else, but I LOVE to support an American company when they produce a superior product.
I have no qualms about buying a foreign product if it is superior to the American made product.
And I'm extremely proud to have purchased one of the last American made CAAD9's.


----------



## 2ndGen

PhD in Cycology said:


> I'm humored by all the wild assumptions and crazy opinions being thrown around... because I know the ending to this story. And all of you will know the end of this story in a couple months--just be patient.


TOTALLY agree. 

(and welcome aboard Doc!)


----------



## 2ndGen

cryoplasm said:


> Trek 1.5 and CAAD9 frames are not a fair comparison, despite where they're made. The Trek 1.5 is a cheaper frame, right through from design to manufacture.


Actually, from a price point for the model years I was comparing, they are in my opinion.
Both bikes came in at similar prices. 
Both are aluminum. 
Both are almost identically spec'd as far as their groupsets go. 
Both employ "in-house" brand/components for their cockpits. 
Both weigh within 1/2 lb of each other. 






> Judging from how the SuperSix has progressed, right up to manufacturing abroad, one should expect the same from the CAAD series when production moves elsewhere. Hopefully and fingers crossed.


I don't see why CAAD's couldn't be manufactured as well. 
The only doubt I would have would be if they employed the same or better manufacturing techniques. 

Here's what we've seen so far: 
A) Today, you can't get a new CAAD9 model for under $1200. MSRP

B) Under American ownership, lowest model CAAD9's were available for under well under $1000. 

C) Under new ownership, production of CAAD9's is shipped over seas, probably for lower production costs. 

So far, we have higher prices and lower production costs. 

Yep, let's see what happens when a company begins to cut costs and raise prices. 








> As bicycle enthusiasts, I feel one needs to be more concerned that companies don't make blunders or design flaws or add unnecessary gimmicks in their products, in the continuing bid to strive for evolution.


Evolution...Yes! 

That CAAD9's had a nice long run. Let's see what a CAAD10 looks like 
(and if they'll be able to produce it at an affordable price). 

If moving production overseas to save the company money enables them to 
produce a better product while keeping the cost of the bike down, that's great.

But they'd be bucking the trend of manufacturers charging more for bikes while downgrading the components.


----------



## 2ndGen

*Cannondale's new owners? *














Walmart Bike Kings...Pacific Cycle?


----------



## STARNUT

2ndGen said:


> Could you please quote me?
> 
> Show me what I wrote that states that I assume what you just wrote I assume?
> 
> A) I never wrote that Asians couldn't produce bikes as well as Americans
> B) I was clearly pointing out the differences in two specific bikes. How you jumped to me speaking "generally" is beyond me.
> C) I stated undeniable facts (not what I "thought" was the case or what I predicted nor what coulda'/woulda'/shoulda' been).
> 
> If you don't think that the CAAD9 frame is a superior frame to the Trek 1.X series frames in every year that the two have been produced, cool.
> I know better (and I probably know a whole lot _less _about bikes in general than you).
> 
> In the case of the American made CAAD9 VS the Chinese made Trek 1.X frame, CAAD wins hands down.
> 
> Period.
> 
> It's better.
> It.
> Just.
> Is.
> 
> But to each his/her own!
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> Now, as for how Cannondale keeps up the quality of it's production as compared to it's current practices?
> As I wrote earlier, we'll see about that.
> I never decided either way.
> I left that option open giving them the chance to prove themselves.
> 
> Different owners don't always carry over the same business practices.
> That doesn't just go for the rest of the world...it goes for bike manufacturers too.


I was also making an assumption...... that you'd read between the lines. But since you can't I'll make it easy, your example is apples to oranges. If you're be so 'specific' rather than 'general' about the two bikes, why even bring the Trek up. Other than to point out what..... one is black and the other is red. The undercurrent in your post was simple; America = better alloy. The last two sentences in your post move to that. You then go to making equal comparisons right above this and then talk about manufacturing costs.

If the case was Asian CAAD9 and Asian Trek 1.x what would win? All things being equal in this case....... if that CAAD9 you hold so dear as Asian made..... would you still be proud to ride it and would it "win"?

Also, the Dorel ownership/bean counter argument is so played out. 

maybe this will help










Starnut


----------



## 2ndGen

STARNUT said:


> I was also making an assumption...... that you'd read between the lines. But since you can't I'll make it easy, your example is apples to oranges. If you're be so 'specific' rather than 'general' about the two bikes, why even bring the Trek up. Other than to point out what..... one is black and the other is red. The undercurrent in your post was simple; America = better alloy.


"undercurrent"?

Don't you mean "your own personal translation" of my text while completely disregarding statements like this from me? 



> "Now, having said that, I don't automatically assume that a place of origin determines quality."








> The last two sentences in your post move to that.


These two: "I'm just happy that I got my BBQ CAAD9 frameset to begin to build a great bike with.
And I'm ecstatic that it was manufactured here. I'll ride that sucker with a lot of pride."






> You then go to making equal comparisons right above this and then talk about manufacturing costs.


Uh, yeah, but what does that have to do with you making false statements about what I believe?

And where are the actual "quotes"? 

See how I quoted you? 






> If the case was Asian CAAD9 and Asian Trek 1.x what would win?


Whoever produced the better frame.
But before we talk about "the future", 
let's talk about the here and now.

 






> All things being equal in this case....... if that CAAD9 you hold so dear as Asian made..... would you still be proud to ride it and would it "win"?


No, I don't take pride in the frame itself, but in buying a bike that was made by my fellow
Americans before their job got shipped overseas by the foreign company that bought them.





> Also, the Dorel ownership/bean counter argument is so played out.


Is it? I had no idea. I came to that conclusion all on my own.

 




> maybe this will help
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starnut



Maybe this would...










:lol:



Whenever you feel ready, I'll be here...still waiting for you to DIRECTLY quote me 
(instead of vaguely referring to this line or that line or "you said"...) 
and posting your personal interpretations next to my quotes.

:thumbsup: 




(But in all honesty, I have a feeling it'll never happen...)










:lol:

The fact STILL remains! 
It's it and that's that! 
The American manufactured CAAD9 is STILL superior to the Chinese produced Trek 1.5! 

:lol:

Anybody who argues that point is just;


----------



## georgewerr

No, I don't take pride in the frame itself, but in buying a bike that was made by my fellow
Americans before their job got shipped overseas by the foreign company that bought them.

Way to go man. - I'm proud to hear you are worried about people getting payed a real wage instead of helping Cannondale (Dorel) get rich off of the backs of third world people making peanuts. 

I would be ok with them being made over seas as long as they pay a decent living. But if they did this then they would not have moved.

Another benifit of there move is not having to worry about enviromental controls. They can dump there waste in the nearest water source and walk away.

George


----------



## ph0enix

2ndGen said:


> So far, we have higher prices and lower production costs.


We do? You're talking about the CAAD9's prices but those bikes are still manufactured in the U.S so what exactly do you mean but the above statement?


----------



## LOUISSSSS

2ndGen said:


> The fact STILL remains!
> It's it and that's that!
> The American manufactured CAAD9 is STILL superior to the Chinese produced Trek 1.5!
> 
> [/IMG]


apples to oranges. what don't you understand about it?

the specialized tarmac is made in Asia is superior to the caad9. What now? Asians make about 90% of the bikes sold in the world. Why do manufacturers keep going to them to have their products made? because its cheaper and it works. Why is the caad9 being moved there? because cannondale can't afford americans' demand for high wages and having it made in China will be just as good or better (we KNOW cannondale wont accept anything of less that top quality frames to sell)

your caad9 is a good frame, but it probably has nothing to do with being made in america. If all and only good things come out of america, why did all the cannondale CF mountain bike frames that were made in the USA crack within the last 3-5 years?


----------



## ph0enix

LOUISSSSS said:


> because cannondale can't afford americans' demand for high wages


This is the second time I see you make a statement like this as if you're blaming the americans for wanting to make ends meet. I guarantee you that most people hand-building the CAAD9's in the U.S. are not rich. Obviously the cost of living is different in the U.S. than it is in China. If it wasn't for the according-to-you-overinflated wages in the U.S., you probably wouldn't be able to afford your Synapse now. Just saying...


----------



## LOUISSSSS

ph0enix said:


> This is the second time I see you make a statement like this as if you're blaming the americans for wanting to make ends meet. I guarantee you that most people hand-building the CAAD9's in the U.S. are not rich. Obviously the cost of living is different in the U.S. than it is in China. If it wasn't for the according-to-you-overinflated wages in the U.S., you probably wouldn't be able to afford your Synapse now. Just saying...


just saying, its really up to cannondale on their business decisions. They're the brains behind everything. They can choose where to have their bikes made. They chose taiwan/china. If their engineering department gave the OK for them to have it made there. Its probably the best choice. Unless you think you can make better decisions on there to have cannondale's bikes made than Cannondale R&D department. Just saying...


----------



## georgewerr

LOUISSSSS said:


> just saying, its really up to cannondale on their business decisions. They're the brains behind everything. They can choose where to have their bikes made. They chose taiwan/china. If their engineering department gave the OK for them to have it made there. Its probably the best choice. Unless you think you can make better decisions on there to have cannondale's bikes made than Cannondale R&D department. Just saying...



Its the buyers who determine where there built. If no one buys the product then there are will be none made.

George


----------



## LOUISSSSS

georgewerr said:


> Its the buyers who determine where there built. If no one buys the product then there are will be none made.
> 
> George


i agree. This means that us (buyers) prefer bikes to be made in Asia.


----------



## ph0enix

LOUISSSSS said:


> just saying, its really up to cannondale on their business decisions. They're the brains behind everything. They can choose where to have their bikes made. They chose taiwan/china. If their engineering department gave the OK for them to have it made there. Its probably the best choice. Unless you think you can make better decisions on there to have cannondale's bikes made than Cannondale R&D department. Just saying...


My attitutde towards Cannondale's decision to move production to Asia has been "let's wait and see..." as you have probably already noticed when reading this thread.
I'm not sure what your response has to do with the point I was making though. You said that americans demand too much money for labor which I think is a pretty ridiculous statement.


----------



## milkbaby

georgewerr said:


> I would be ok with them being made over seas as long as they pay a decent living. But if they did this then they would not have moved.


Are you sure? How do you know if they are paying a "decent living" overseas or not? A decent wage in other parts of the world can be a lot less than in the USA because the cost of living over there is much less. So in fact, they could be paying a better living wage to overseas workers than they've been paying to folks in the USA. I'm not saying this is or isn't the case becuase I don't know the specifics...

I do quite enjoy riding my bike that has "Handmade in USA" stickered along the seat stays... My favorite riding kit says "USA" on the shorts and jersey and a big ol' American flag on the jersey which is made in the USA... but the shorts were made in Italy, weird?!? :blush2:


----------



## georgewerr

its to much money. They don't need to feed there family's and put a roof over there heads.

George


----------



## ph0enix

georgewerr said:


> its to much money. They don't need to feed there family's and put a roof over there heads.
> 
> George


No, no, of course they do. It's just that the price of that roof is a lot different there.


----------



## LOUISSSSS

ph0enix said:


> No, no, of course they do. It's just that the price of that roof is a lot different there.


exactly, so in the end, everyone is equally off in both countries. Those factory workers in cannondale's Asia factory dont have to work there if they dont want. They can work in 1 of the other million factories in china. They choose to. They get paid proportionally as well as factory workers in america. In the end, the business owner/consumers have spoken and want better quality bikes/$$ that are made in Asia.


----------



## georgewerr

milkbaby said:


> Are you sure? How do you know if they are paying a "decent living" overseas or not? A decent wage in other parts of the world can be a lot less than in the USA because the cost of living over there is much less. So in fact, they could be paying a better living wage to overseas workers than they've been paying to folks in the USA. I'm not saying this is or isn't the case becuase I don't know the specifics...
> 
> I do quite enjoy riding my bike that has "Handmade in USA" stickered along the seat stays... My favorite riding kit says "USA" on the shorts and jersey and a big ol' American flag on the jersey which is made in the USA... but the shorts were made in Italy, weird?!? :blush2:


You are right about cost of living.

It cost a lot less to buy a cardboard box the a house and rice is a lot cheaper the hamburger.

George


----------



## LOUISSSSS

georgewerr said:


> You are right about cost of living.
> 
> It cost a lot less to buy a cardboard box the a house and rice is a lot cheaper the hamburger.
> 
> George


yep, and americans need to pay for more important things such as liposuction, fat reduction pills, and insurance bills after their 2nd heart attack @ age 50. but lets get back into the OP's topic.

I agree with the lets wait and see. 99% of bikes sold in america are made in Asia. They must be doing something right. We'll see how the next caad bike looks in 2011.


----------



## pedalingsquares

STARNUT!!!! I would love to come and work for you. I am a semi retired bike junkie, honest and hard working. If I decide to move from NH I would like work along side you.


----------



## T K

Jeez, enough bickering! 
What is really important is that they drop that hidious paint scheme on the '10s. Get back to solid colors with big solid logos like the '09s. What is that little swoopy thing on the frames anyway? Yuck!!!!


----------



## georgewerr

pedalingsquares said:


> STARNUT!!!! I would love to come and work for you. I am a semi retired bike junkie, honest and hard working. If I decide to move from NH I would like work along side you.


If you are a true New Englander you would think more of your fellow Americans

George


----------



## milkbaby

T K said:


> Jeez, enough bickering!
> What is really important is that they drop that hidious paint scheme on the '10s. Get back to solid colors with big solid logos like the '09s. What is that little swoopy thing on the frames anyway? Yuck!!!!


+1... 2009 had the best color schemes on the CAAD line... The 2005 and 2006 ones were okay too, but 2009 had the classiest IMO. That weird swoopy asymmetrical thingy is fugly (and I'm not talking about a Pinarello).


----------



## PhD in Cycology

2nd Gen,
Thanks for the welcome, but I'd like it more if you would pump the brake for a moment... there are facts and there are opinions:... Opinions: some people believe that a CAAD9 frame is superior because of who built it; while many of us believe it is superior because of who designed it and how many years it was in the making (evolutionary advantage)--you say, "tastes great", I say "less filling" but in the end we all agree...

However, there are some facts that you need to consider:
1. The Pacific bike brand you have pictured has nothing to do with Dorel, Pacific Sports Group, or Cannondale--different company (bikes are produced near the same ocean though...).
2. Dorel never put Schwinn, GT, or any other bike brand in the "mass channel". You see Schwinn and GT had been thoroughly run into the ground, and Pacific Cycle scooped up the remains from bankrupcy--they put those brands into big box stores half a decade before Dorel had anything to do with the bike industry. Ask a Schwinn/GT dealer and they will tell you that the brands have fared much better since Dorel purchased Pacific Cycle about five years after the Wal Mart era began.
3. Cannondale has been planning this move since before Dorel entered the equation. We're purists here--we love these stiff, light aluminum frames... but the market has spoken, and the market wants carbon (and at a competitive price). You can't expect a company to continue to pay a "real cost" of $35/hr./employee while all the key competitors are paying $1/hr./employee. If a company is going to survive and prosper it has to be willing to adapt. I'll bank that Cannondale will do just that and bring you a 2011 range that will compel you to reconsider.
4. Dorel has doubled Cannondale's R&D budget. With the way that product cycles work, 2011 will be the first model year that began on Dorel's watch...so...I say this: "Let's just wait a couple months and let the product speak for itself". I am willing to wager you will all like what you see.

I for one am very excited about the future of Cannondale--there are finally people at the helm who are making fiscally responsible decisions to go along with the passionate people innovating things you won't see anywhere else. Please, just keep an open mind and be patient a few more weeks...


----------



## Guinness2009

georgewerr said:


> Hi chirobike,
> 
> I agree this healthcare bill is watered down and I would like to see real reform. I am a minority in my feelings on healthcare and I know this will start a debate that will not change anyones mine but here we go. I feel we need to get ride of all for profit insurance company's and let the government perform this task. I don't like a for profit company deciding whether a proceeder will benefit there bottom line.
> 
> *Cannondale is owned by Durel a Canada company and pay there taxes to Canada. You are right there are designers and other employees that are Americans but will have a much reduced workforce after there throw breaking up this fine enterprise.*
> 
> George


Let's start off by trying to translate what I think you are trying to say .......

" Cannondale is owned by *DOREL* a Canadian company and therefore pay their taxes to Canada. You are right there are designers and other employees that are Americans but Cannondale will have a much reduced workforce after they are through breaking up this fine enterprise"

I think that that is the gist of what you were trying to say, and a fine arguement you are for American Exceptionalism and the value of maintaining the workflow in the US.

If that is in fact what you are trying to say;

1) Yes Cannondale is owned as a wholly owned subsidiary of Dorel, a company based in Montreal. It remains a US registered corporation, resident in CT. That means it pays income, unemployment, payroll, sales and other taxes in both CT, and the USA. Profit, after taxes, is remitted to the parent company, Dorel. But why let facts cloud your barely coherent rant.

2) As in any corporate combination, or takeover, employment is reduced, somewhere. That is one of the synergies that allows the business to remain in business, offering any employment. Given Cannondale's history, the people working there are lucky that Dorel bought it. Otherwise they would have no payroll at all.

3) This fine enterprise?? Really? The company was run into the ground twice. The founding family raped it the first time, drove it into bankruptcy, from whence an investment fund bought it, hoping to make a profit. Since the company was unable to make any money at all, the investment fund sold it's stake for a loss to Dorel. Dorel, as a result of economies of scale realized through having investments in other bicycle businesses is finally turning a profit, albeit small. Pity all the idiots who bought shares when the founding family listed Cannondale on the public exchange as a cynical attempt to cash in. They have lost every penny of their investments.

Fine Enterprise??


Only through Dorel's sourcing frames from off-shore does Cannondale even exist in the form it does today. 

You should be thanking them.

But you won't. You will continue your semi-legible, illiterate rants about the destruction of this "fine enterprise".


----------



## Comer

jscumbie said:


> I love the fact that my 2010 Cannondale CAAD9-1 was made here in the US. I wish they would continue to be, but in order for Cannondale to be able to continue to compete and keep prices low, they were apparently forced to move production out of the US. It's easy to get mad at Cannondale (or Dorel) and those big, nasty dirty corporations (grit your teeth when you say "dirty corporations"), but the corporations are not the problem. The question you should ask is "why is it cheaper to move production outside the US"?
> 
> This discussion about Cannondale moving production to Asia has come up a number of times since I have started watching this forum. I've hesitated to comment because I didn't want to draw the discussion into politics, so let me walk very softly here. Why is it cheaper to move production outside the US... or to put it another way, why are costs higher here in the US? Basically 3 reasons:
> 
> 1. Taxes, taxes, taxes and more taxes
> 2. Regulations
> 3. Liability / legal issues
> 
> The number one reason costs are higher here in the US is the first one, taxes. I started a small business a number of years ago (I was the only employee) and I was amazed at how much time I spent complying with tax laws and how much money was taken out of my business for taxes. A business has to keep us with sales tax, property tax, unemployment tax, social security tax, medicare tax, income tax, etc. Woah! to the business that makes a mistake trying to comply with taxes. There is rarely any mercy shown by the government... so, then a business can find itself dealing with reason 3 above, they have to higher a lawyer and spend money to resolve tax issues.
> 
> Anytime you hear a politician talking about taxing the wealthy or finding newer sources of revenue, remember, that even though they promise you on a stack of Bibles that these taxes won't effect the middle class, they are lying to you! All taxes have an effect on everyone! This is basic high school Economics.
> 
> For the past year, our government has threatened to punish businesses that outsource to other countries or "off-shore" their manufacturing. The problem is that businesses are reacting to the laws that Congress passes. Congress makes it difficult and expensive for a business to conduct its business, so the business, in an effort to compete and survive, makes decisions that are best for the business. Our government has become so business unfriendly, that you can't blame those "dirty corporations" for doing what is best for their company.
> 
> You want Cannondale and other companies to bring their manufacturing back to the US? Then, when you vote, vote for people who truly believe in small and limited government. Make sure you vote for people who have actually read the Constitution and understand what Amendments 9 and 10 actually mean!
> 
> Sorry if this sounds political, but it is hard for me to watch businesses go off-shore. I live in North Carolina where the majority of manufacturing is now gone (textiles, furniture, even a Dell assembly plant). I want these businesses to stay in the US. I want to buy Cannondale bikes built in the US, but that is not going to happen as long as we have people running our government that have no idea how a business runs, who have no idea how taxes affect people and businesses, and who have no idea how an economy works.




X2, no X1,000,000

Great post, so true too.


----------



## T K

PHD, you are making me all tingley inside. I hope Cdale is better than ever. 
Sounds like maybe you are on the inside?
I'll eagerly await the new line up, always room for one more caad in the stable.


----------



## 2ndGen

georgewerr said:


> No, I don't take pride in the frame itself, but in buying a bike that was made by my fellow
> Americans before their job got shipped overseas by the foreign company that bought them.
> 
> Way to go man. - I'm proud to hear you are worried about people getting payed a real wage instead of helping Cannondale (Dorel) get rich off of the backs of third world people making peanuts.
> 
> I would be ok with them being made over seas as long as they pay a decent living. But if they did this then they would not have moved.
> 
> Another benifit of there move is not having to worry about enviromental controls. They can dump there waste in the nearest water source and walk away.
> 
> George


:thumbsup:


----------



## 2ndGen

ph0enix said:


> We do? You're talking about the CAAD9's prices but those bikes are still manufactured in the U.S so what exactly do you mean but the above statement?


I'm talking about *when *the switch is made to overseas production.


----------



## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> apples to oranges. what don't you understand about it?
> 
> the specialized tarmac is made in Asia is superior to the caad9. What now?



"That's" apples to oranges.

Trek 1.5 VS CAAD9 is apples to apples. 






> your caad9 is a good frame, but it probably has nothing to do with being made in america.


So it's created and manufactured here and that has nothing to do with it?
All the Asians will do will be to "copy" what we have already pioneered in the CAAD9.
I never said they couldn't "copy" us. 
History has shown us that they do that well.


----------



## 2ndGen

ph0enix said:


> We do? You're talking about the CAAD9's prices but those bikes are still manufactured in the U.S so what exactly do you mean but the above statement?



One more thing...when did the entry-level CAAD9 shoot 20% in MSRP? 

Before or after Cannondale was taken over by a foreign company?

Do the math: Lower production costs, higher MSRP....what does that spell to you?


----------



## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> just saying, its really up to cannondale on their business decisions. They're the brains behind everything. They can choose where to have their bikes made. They chose taiwan/china. If their engineering department gave the OK for them to have it made there. Its probably the best choice. Unless you think you can make better decisions on there to have cannondale's bikes made than Cannondale R&D department. Just saying...


Cannondale?

What Cannondale?

Don't you mean Dorel?

Are we going to see Cannondales in Walmart now? :lol:


----------



## 2ndGen

georgewerr said:


> Its the buyers who determine where there built. If no one buys the product then there are will be none made.
> 
> George


Yep.

Money talks.


----------



## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> i agree. This means that us (buyers) prefer bikes to be made in Asia.


I'd be willing to pay "extra" for a bike made in America. 

If both bikes I was considering were pretty equal, I'd be happy to pay 
the extra $ to support an American company over an foreign company. 

I'm pretty sure however that not many other cyclists are willing to do so either. 

But I as a business owner think differently.


----------



## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> In the end, the business owner/consumers have spoken and want better quality bikes/$$ that are made in Asia.


Cannondale cannot keep up with made in American made CAAD's.

Does any Asian/American company produce a bike even remotely comparable to the CAAD9 in it's price range?

(all aluminum frame, similar specs, etc...)


----------



## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> I agree with the lets wait and see. We'll see how the next caad bike looks in 2011.


That's all I've said from the beginning.


----------



## 2ndGen

PhD in Cycology said:


> 2nd Gen,
> Thanks for the welcome, but I'd like it more if you would pump the brake for a moment... there are facts and there are opinions:... Opinions: some people believe that a CAAD9 frame is superior because of who built it; while many of us believe it is superior because of who designed it and how many years it was in the making (evolutionary advantage)--you say, "tastes great", I say "less filling" but in the end we all agree...


Tell you what...let's just have a poll: 

Who makes the best aluminum frame road bike for under $1000.?

(Mind you, I'm not only getting my information from the various forums that I've been on, but from major cycling magazines as well and they are loved world wide and considered to be premium aluminum frames.)



> However, there are some facts that you need to consider:
> 1. The Pacific bike brand you have pictured has nothing to do with Dorel, Pacific Sports Group, or Cannondale--different company (bikes are produced near the same ocean though...).


https://www.dorel.com/product.htm

In 2004, Dorel became one of the largest marketers of recreational products in North America with its acquisition of Pacific Cycle, a leader in the design, marketing and distribution of high quality branded bicycles and other recreational products.











These "are" the bikes that Dorel produces and that are sold in Walmart, right? 














> 2. Dorel never put Schwinn, GT, or any other bike brand in the "mass channel". You see Schwinn and GT had been thoroughly run into the ground, and Pacific Cycle scooped up the remains from bankrupcy--they put those brands into big box stores half a decade before Dorel had anything to do with the bike industry. Ask a Schwinn/GT dealer and they will tell you that the brands have fared much better since Dorel purchased Pacific Cycle about five years after the Wal Mart era began.


How much better? They only last 90 days before completely falling apart as opposed to only 30 days before? These are department store bicycles. This forum actually has Sticky Threads warning cyclists about them. 






> 3. Cannondale has been planning this move since before Dorel entered the equation. We're purists here--we love these stiff, light aluminum frames... but the market has spoken, and the market wants carbon (and at a competitive price). You can't expect a company to continue to pay a "real cost" of $35/hr./employee while all the key competitors are paying $1/hr./employee. If a company is going to survive and prosper it has to be willing to adapt. I'll bank that Cannondale will do just that and bring you a 2011 range that will compel you to reconsider.


The market has spoken? 

Uh, yeah.

CAAD's are Cannondales BEST selling bikes. 
They can't keep them in stock. 
There are waiting lists for them. 




> 4. Dorel has doubled Cannondale's R&D budget. With the way that product cycles work, 2011 will be the first model year that began on Dorel's watch...so...I say this: "Let's just wait a couple months and let the product speak for itself". I am willing to wager you will all like what you see.
> 
> I for one am very excited about the future of Cannondale--there are finally people at the helm who are making fiscally responsible decisions to go along with the passionate people innovating things you won't see anywhere else. Please, just keep an open mind and be patient a few more weeks...


So Doc, how long have you worked for Dorel? 

:lol: 

*I kid! I kid! *













Seriously though, yeah, I'd like to see how they can improve on the CAAD9. 

And, if you remember my one of my first posts, I've expressed the same sentiments.
I'm going to keep an open mind and see what they come up with.


----------



## 2ndGen

milkbaby said:


> +1... 2009 had the best color schemes on the CAAD line... The 2005 and 2006 ones were okay too, but 2009 had the classiest IMO. That weird swoopy asymmetrical thingy is fugly (and I'm not talking about a Pinarello).


One more reason my '09 purchase was justifiable over the '10.


----------



## 2ndGen

Comer said:


> X2, no X1,000,000
> 
> Great post, so true too.


I vote with my dollars.

I'll never buy a foreign truck. 

2 reasons...no one makes a better pickup than American manufacturers
and I would never make a purchase that big to support another country.
I prefer to support my local economy especially when the quality is there. 
I won't buy American made junk either (that's another way I vote).


----------



## PhD in Cycology

Well, I think we agree on who makes the best bike under $1000... (however, it is not the best selling Cannondale bike--that bike would be made in Asia).

I'm not sure you understood the point about Pacific. Pacific Cycle a.k.a. Pacific Sports Group is not the same company as the Pacific bike brand--unfortunate coincidence...


----------



## 2ndGen

PhD in Cycology said:


> Well, I think we agree on who makes the best bike under $1000... (however, it is not the best selling Cannondale bike--that bike would be made in Asia).
> 
> I'm not sure you understood the point about Pacific. Pacific Cycle a.k.a. Pacific Sports Group is not the same company as the Pacific bike brand--unfortunate coincidence...


I've heard and read that it was their best selling bike. 

And the LBS's claim they can't get any more and that as they come in, they go out. 
Not just one or two, but every CDale shop I've been in in the NYC area.

I got it after looking at Dorel's site. :thumbsup: 

What's Cannondale's best selling bike for 2009?


----------



## ph0enix

2ndGen said:


> One more thing...when did the entry-level CAAD9 shoot 20% in MSRP?
> 
> Before or after Cannondale was taken over by a foreign company?
> 
> Do the math: Lower production costs, higher MSRP....what does that spell to you?


Ok, you failed to address the point I was making. The cost of production of the CAAD9 is not lower than it was before Dorel bought Cannondale because the production is still in the U.S. I still don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## LOUISSSSS

2ndGen said:


> I vote with my dollars.
> 
> I'll never buy a foreign truck.
> 
> 2 reasons...no one makes a better pickup than American manufacturers
> and I would never make a purchase that big to support another country.
> I prefer to support my local economy especially when the quality is there.
> I won't buy American made junk either (that's another way I vote).


You buy much more foreign made stuff throughout your life. More than 50% of your vehicles parts were made abroad. 99% of the stuff you havei bet was made in Asia. I have a feeling you'll continue buying their stufd


----------



## georgewerr

LOUISSSSS said:


> yep, and americans need to pay for more important things such as liposuction, fat reduction pills, and insurance bills after their 2nd heart attack @ age 50. but lets get back into the OP's topic.
> 
> I agree with the lets wait and see. 99% of bikes sold in america are made in Asia. They must be doing something right. We'll see how the next caad bike looks in 2011.


They are doing something right, They are paying there workers didly and this brings the manufactures who only worry about the shareholders fat profit and not what they pay people and the enviroment.

George


----------



## LOUISSSSS

georgewerr said:


> They are doing something right, They are paying there workers didly and this brings the manufactures who only worry about the shareholders fat profit and not what they pay people and the enviroment.
> 
> George


so we have an ethics dilemma here. Workers voluntarily chose to work. If they want to work, they agree to the wage. Just like you would at mcdonalds. If those factory workers at cannondale in Asia CHOSE TO WORK THERE, that means they WANT TO WORK THERE. if you care so much about their wages, why dont you overpay for your next bike purchase or donate some money to them?

FYI, the chinese economy is doing better than america. and they were doing better throughout the entire recession also.

Profit: The goal of every business. If you are not making maximum profit, you are a shitty business owner.


----------



## junior varsity

The best selling bike by unit or dollars? I can tell you easily that both begin with a Q and end with a uick.

I find it highly interesting that people tend to believe everything they see or hear. Yes, there is a short supply of CAAD 9 bikes. Yes, they have a higher starting price in '10 than in previous years. Did anyone care to look at the fact they start with a pretty solid Tiagra spec instead of Sora? Also, the 105 and above now have bb30 cranks and a carbon steerer tube. Cost generally go up every year and including the spec upgrade, I don't think a $100 price increase is out of line.

This whole business of Dorel making the call to send the the manufacturing overseas is honestly just incorrect. That process has been in place for years. Just ask any Cannondale dealer how competitive Cannondale in '10 is compaired to '07 before the recreational bikes (sub $1000 mtb, hybrid...ect) went off shore.

Cannondale is still an American based company. They have Canadian owners but it's still the same (all be it increased) R&D, testing, marketing, sales, shipping, operations, etc company. The only differrence is manufacturing of the frames will not be done in the US after the '10 line. The factory in Bedford, PA will still be there. Parts will still be hung on the mid to upper end bikes, shipping, customer service, testing, and a lot of other peolpe. Cannondale wasn't just the welders and paint. Cannondale is everything from sales to people who clean the warehouse floor.

I can also say that the bike replacing the CAAD 9 is an improvement, just like the '10 SuperSix was an improvement over the '09.


----------



## georgewerr

LOUISSSSS said:


> so we have an ethics dilemma here. Workers voluntarily chose to work. If they want to work, they agree to the wage. Just like you would at mcdonalds. If those factory workers at cannondale in Asia CHOSE TO WORK THERE, that means they WANT TO WORK THERE. if you care so much about their wages, why dont you overpay for your next bike purchase or donate some money to them?
> 
> FYI, the chinese economy is doing better than america. and they were doing better throughout the entire recession also.
> 
> Profit: The goal of every business. If you are not making maximum profit, you are a shitty business owner.



Thats fine if you dont care about your fellow man. Your right they have the right to be under payed with one employer or to go to another employer and still be under payed. not enough to buy food and a place to live.

I have over payed to buy american heck I have two cannondales that I over payed to help keep jobs here.

George


----------



## BikeNerd2453

georgewerr said:


> Thats fine if you dont care about your fellow man. Your right they have the right to be under payed with one employer or to go to another employer and still be under payed. not enough to buy food and a place to live.
> 
> I have over payed to buy american heck I have two cannondales that I over payed to help keep jobs here.
> 
> George


I guess you didn't over pay enough...


----------



## LOUISSSSS

georgewerr said:


> Thats fine if you dont care about your fellow man. Your right they have the right to be under payed with one employer or to go to another employer and still be under payed. not enough to buy food and a place to live.
> 
> I have over payed to buy american heck I have two cannondales that I over payed to help keep jobs here.
> 
> George


only 2 bikes? do you overpay for every item in your household for it to be made in america?


----------



## 2ndGen

ph0enix said:


> Ok, you failed to address the point I was making. The cost of production of the CAAD9 is not lower than it was before Dorel bought Cannondale because the production is still in the U.S. I still don't know what you're talking about.


What was the point you were making? 

You asked me a question and I answered it. 

And, even though the price is the same of CAAD9 production,
before they even took it out of the country, they already raised it.

What's going to happen when they actually lower the cost of production?
They'll reintroduce a lower cost CAAD9 option?
Nope. The CAAD8 is the new low cost CAAD.

You're not seeing the pattern this foreign company is displaying.
Cut costs, raise prices.


----------



## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> You buy much more foreign made stuff throughout your life. More than 50% of your vehicles parts were made abroad. 99% of the stuff you havei bet was made in Asia. I have a feeling you'll continue buying their stufd


Uh, yeah. 

I stated that I have no problem buying foreign made products when they are superior to American made products.
And, if they are the only source for a tire as on option on a vehicle for example, 
I have no choice if I want the American MADE vehicle (until it's time to upgrade them).
Now you're just starting to parse the product ignoring "where" it's made. 
A tire alone ain't going to do me any good without the rest of the vehicle.


----------



## 2ndGen

junior varsity said:


> The best selling bike by unit or dollars? I can tell you easily that both begin with a Q and end with a uick.
> 
> I find it highly interesting that people tend to believe everything they see or hear. Yes, there is a short supply of CAAD 9 bikes. Yes, they have a higher starting price in '10 than in previous years. Did anyone care to look at the fact they start with a pretty solid Tiagra spec instead of Sora? Also, the 105 and above now have bb30 cranks and a carbon steerer tube. Cost generally go up every year and including the spec upgrade, I don't think a $100 price increase is out of line.
> 
> 
> .


Tiagra a "worthy" $400. upcharge over Sora? 











When did Tiagra start making BB30 cranksets (or is it a standard crankset adapted to a BB30 frame)?

From $869. to $1229. doesn't seem "out of line" to you for the entry-level CAAD9? 

 

Okay. 





Now, by "unit"... 

Which is Cannondale's best selling bike?

Anybody?


----------



## 2ndGen

georgewerr said:


> Thats fine if you dont care about your fellow man. Your right they have the right to be under payed with one employer or to go to another employer and still be under payed. not enough to buy food and a place to live.
> 
> I have over payed to buy american heck I have two cannondales that I over payed to help keep jobs here.
> 
> George


:thumbsup:


----------



## 2ndGen

What is "the word" on 2011 CAAD9 production? 

Will it remain identical to the 2010? 

What upgrades have been planned for it?

Will there be a CAAD10?

What will the pricepoint be for the 2011 CAAD9?


----------



## junior varsity

Like I said, it begins with Q and ends with uick.... both dollar and unit. It may be different if we start talking world wide, but I am talking about in the US. However, I would say that the CAAD 9 platform is a very popular bike. I also never said the bikes came with a BB30 Tiagra crank. I thought I was pretty clear in saying that 105 and above came with BB30. 

Looking at the '09 vs the '10 CAAD 9-6 there was also a $100 increase. However, there wasn't much of a spec change. I am using MSRP and am not taking the luxuary of using best price vs worst price to skew my argument.

Now as far as your price compairing goes, let's have a look at the real numbers.

'09 CAAD 9-7 Retail $979.99
'10 CAAD 9-7 Retail $1,2929.99

Difference of $250

The upgrades you get..
Shifters- Sora to Tiagra
Wheels- from generic hubs CXP22 to Shimano R500
Brakes- Tektro R320 to R520 (this is actually a nice upgrade)
Crank- FSA Vero to a Shimano Tiagra (the '10 frame is BB30 so there is an adapter sleeve)
Chain is upgraded, as the handlebar.

You also need to realize that Cannondale introduced the CAAD 8 (overseas entry level bike) to hit the lower pricepoints. So, no, I don't think $1,229 is out of line for the entry level bike with the CAAD 9 frame. There are CAAD 8's at $899 and $1059 for the entry level Cannondales.

I fully believe that the CAAD9 is one of, if not the best, aluminum frames made at any price. I don't even consider it in the same class at the 1 series from trek. Pricepoint wise (purely price.... not weight, stiffness, ride or anything else) the 2 series is price and spec'd to compete with the CAAD 9.... which again, it doesn't.


----------



## georgewerr

LOUISSSSS said:


> only 2 bikes? do you overpay for every item in your household for it to be made in america?


When I can I will always buy American but as we all know that is not always possible

George


----------



## 2ndGen

junior varsity said:


> Like I said, it begins with Q and ends with uick.... both dollar and unit. It may be different if we start talking world wide, but I am talking about in the US. However, I would say that the CAAD 9 platform is a very popular bike. I also never said the bikes came with a BB30 Tiagra crank. I thought I was pretty clear in saying that 105 and above came with BB30.
> 
> Looking at the '09 vs the '10 CAAD 9-6 there was also a $100 increase. However, there wasn't much of a spec change. I am using MSRP and am not taking the luxuary of using best price vs worst price to skew my argument.
> 
> Now as far as your price compairing goes, let's have a look at the real numbers.
> 
> '09 CAAD 9-7 Retail $979.99
> '10 CAAD 9-7 Retail $1,2929.99


I was at a CAAD9-7 dealer and it was listed at $879. 





> Difference of $250


So I got a $350. difference. 



> The upgrades you get..
> Shifters- Sora to Tiagra
> Wheels- from generic hubs CXP22 to Shimano R500
> Brakes- Tektro R320 to R520 (this is actually a nice upgrade)
> Crank- FSA Vero to a Shimano Tiagra (the '10 frame is BB30 so there is an adapter sleeve)
> Chain is upgraded, as the handlebar.


That's what I'm talking about! 
Thank you for that JV. 

For me, one is still buying frameset really. 

From what I've read, the CXP22's are tougher than the R500's. 
Lot's of complaints on the Shimanos, but the Mavics get decent reviews for what they are
(OEM wheelsets that take a beating until they can be upgraded).

Make sure the bike shop took a good look at those wheels, and didn't just accept them as sound out of the box.

Mainly because those Shimano R-500/RS-10s are NOT sound out of the box. 
They will start breaking spokes soon unless tensioned properly.
They will start breaking spokes later even after being tensioned.

(Discussion at another "bike forum")

From what I've read from others' experiences, the CXP22's are better. 






Sora/FSA--->Tiagra, definitely better. 
I'd say that alone would add another $20. retail on the crankset and probably about $50. retail 
(I'm sure that Cannondale isn't paying anywhere near that for their savings). 

Tektro brake upgrade, now there is the real upgrade (along with the shifters). 
Another $15. difference. 





> You also need to realize that Cannondale introduced the CAAD 8 (overseas entry level bike) to hit the lower pricepoints. So, no, I don't think $1,229 is out of line for the entry level bike with the CAAD 9 frame. There are CAAD 8's at $899 and $1059 for the entry level Cannondales


.

Last year, the CAAD9 6 was what? $999. MSRP I think? 
Almost identically spec'd to this year's 9 6?
That's still a 20% price hike with no real changes. 

As for the 8, you could get a CAAD9 for what an 8 is selling today last year. 
Haven't really heard any reviews on it yet, so I can't judge the product. 








> I fully believe that the CAAD9 is one of, if not the best, aluminum frames made at any price. I don't even consider it in the same class at the 1 series from trek. Pricepoint wise (purely price.... not weight, stiffness, ride or anything else) the 2 series is price and spec'd to compete with the CAAD 9.... which again, it doesn't.


Agreed and again, I lovvvvvvvvvvvve my Trek 1.5 to death. 
The CAAD still is the best bang for the buck aluminum-wise and is often 
said to be better than the entry-level carbon frames being cranked out today. 

The weight weenies LOVE CAAD9's. 

I think that the CAAD9 is the top bike when it comes to getting an entry-level road bike 
that one can actually keep and that is worthy of putting some really great parts on.


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## ph0enix

2ndGen said:


> You asked me a question and I answered it.


Hardly. You just repeated the same claim.



2ndGen said:


> And, even though the price is the same of CAAD9 production,
> before they even took it out of the country, they already raised it.


This is where you're actually addressing the question but now you're back-tracking a little. Now you're saying that the production cost of the CAAD9 hasn't changed.



2ndGen said:


> What's going to happen when they actually lower the cost of production?


I don't know. Let's wait and see before posting speculative statements as facts. 



2ndGen said:


> You're not seeing the pattern this foreign company is displaying.
> Cut costs, raise prices.


Can you provide an actual example of this? I thought you said that the cost of production hasn't changed so where is the "Cut costs" part? They raised the prices but so did all the other manufacturers. What does that tell you?


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## georgewerr

ph0enix said:


> Hardly. You just repeated the same claim.
> 
> 
> 
> This is where you're actually addressing the question but now you're back-tracking a little. Now you're saying that the production cost of the CAAD9 hasn't changed.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. Let's wait and see before posting speculative statements as facts.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you provide an actual example of this? I thought you said that the cost of production hasn't changed so where is the "Cut costs" part? They raised the prices but so did all the other manufacturers. What does that tell you?


This tells me they all are greedy


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## Devastator

Question for 2ndgen or anyone.

Whats more American, buying an American car built in Mexico or buying say a Japanese car built in America? And which would you pick + why?

Edit: Tweaked the question a bit to make it more equal.
Louiss anwsered before I switched it.


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## LOUISSSSS

obviously the subaru, because subarus are overall better than their american competitors' cars. :mad2:


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## STARNUT

Subaraus are made here. Noone remembers the ad where they say their US plant is a nature preserve and deer and rabbits were running all over the place?

I still can not believe this thread is still going on. Did anyone search and read all the BS losing jobs/bean counter/"'merica phuck yeah" theads that popped up when they announced they were moving the Super 6 to Asia? The fact is the arguments are extremely limited in favor of keeping this product US made. The haters have used everyone of them in abundance on here in the last year. This is like a rehash of the last 14 months. I didn't that much stupid could fit into two pages.

Starnut


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## Devastator

STARNUT said:


> Subaraus are made made here. Noone remembers the ad where they say their US plant is a nature preserve and deer and rabbits were running all over the place?
> 
> I still can not believe this thread is still going on. Did anyone search and read all the BS losing jobs/bean counter/"'merica phuck yeah" theads that popped up when they announced they were moving the Super 6 to Asia? The fact is the arguments are extremely limited in favor of keeping this product US made. The haters have used everyone of them in abundance on here in the last year.
> 
> Starnut


Yes I wanted it to be less specific. 

But obviously these people are more concerned with employing fellow Americans than, whether or not the bikes they ride or fantasize about riding are quality and whether the company is still in business that makes them. No point in arguing, I just want to understand.


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## LOUISSSSS

okay just stop the arguing. the caad9 IS going to be moved to Asia. americans WILL lose their jobs. A better bike will be built. Cannondale will profit more. You will still buy their bikes.


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## STARNUT

Devastator said:


> Yes I wanted it to be less specific.
> 
> But obviously these people are more concerned with employing fellow Americans than, whether or not the bikes they ride or fantasize about riding are quality and whether the company is still in business that makes them. No point in arguing, I just want to understand.



I knew what you were getting at.... :thumbsup: 

Starnut


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## ph0enix

LOUISSSSS said:


> okay just stop the arguing. the caad9 IS going to be moved to Asia. americans WILL lose their jobs. A better bike will be built. Cannondale will profit more. You will still buy their bikes.


Ok, so you're just an a*s*s*h*o*l*e*...


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## junior varsity

And that's what it always comes down to, the product. It's always a function of the best product (as valued by consumers on a macro level, not what's important to an individual) for the best price. If a you do is sell on price then you devalue the product. Dorel is not an evil company. They have made a lot of positive changes possible. 

I do see George's point of shipping jobs overseas but I disagree. Frame manufacturing is just a part of the overall company. There is everything from sales to R&D/ engineering and shipping to accounting. Producing a Cannondale is not just the result of a welder, it's the result of 100s of people's hard work, including the guy on the shop floor. Yes, it sucks that some people were let go, but my understanding is that many other people were hired as a result of more business being done. Does this offset, I don't know. 

My background is in economics and I can tell you that the world today is a global one. With that there have been huge gains in productivity and technology. The return to capital is always going to be greater that the return to labor due to the flexability of capital (and the fact that capital is embodied labor). 

Bottom line, Adam Smith's invisiable hand usually figures things out.


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## georgewerr

Devastator said:


> Yes I wanted it to be less specific.
> 
> But obviously these people are more concerned with employing fellow Americans than, whether or not the bikes they ride or fantasize about riding are quality and whether the company is still in business that makes them. No point in arguing, I just want to understand.


As I said before, I have no problem buying a product made overseas as long as there workers are payed a livable wage and the company's protect the environment. But to go to Asia for the purpose of not paying there workers a living wage is unethical.

George


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## LOUISSSSS

ph0enix said:


> Ok, so you're just an a*s*s*h*o*l*e*...


you're one of those who are a little sensitive and can't bare to hear the truth?


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## LOUISSSSS

georgewerr said:


> As I said before, I have no problem buying a product made overseas as long as there workers are payed a livable wage and the company's protect the environment. But to go to Asia for the purpose of not paying there workers a living wage is unethical.
> 
> George


moving production to Asia is a business move made by 99% of american companies. its because the Asians can make an identical product that americans can make for much less money; which translates to Asians can make a better product for the same amount of money. This means profit for cannondale. The first goal of every business is profit. They're making the correct business move. 

And lets go round and round and round again.:mad2: 
This IS GOING TO HAPPEN
Your friends WILL LOSE THEIR JOBS
The next caad IS GOING TO BE NICE
Cannondale won't go bankrupt like the auto industry


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## 2ndGen

Devastator said:


> Question for 2ndgen or anyone.
> 
> Whats more American, buying an American car built in Mexico or buying say a Japanese car built in America? And which would you pick + why?
> 
> Edit: Tweaked the question a bit to make it more equal.
> Louiss anwsered before I switched it.


D, 

I heard this question posted before to someone else. 
I'll take it here.

Buying an American car is more American because you are supporting an American company.
This is better for the company. Bad for the American worker.

Buying a Japanese care is less American because you are supporting 
American car companies' competition which is one more sale they don't get. 
This is better for the auto worker, but bad for the American company. 

A study was done on this years ago when some Japanese company opened a company in the South and when the numbers were all worked out, contributing to the success of a foreign company in our country was more detrimental to the country as a whole despite their hiring American workers. 

Personally however, I wouldn't pick either. 
But if you put a gun to my head, I'd get the Mexican built car (all things being equal). 
I'd rather support the American company over the foreign company. 

I never even thought about this when I bought my CAAD. 
It was a Canadian owned company when it was manufactured and when I bought it. So I supported a foreign owned company, 
but it is the best bike for the money so I would've bought it even if it had been built in Poland. 

 

I'd only would buy an American car built in America that is a superior product to the competition. Again, I believe that buying American just for the sake of buying American and supporting a poor product actually has a lose/lose effect.


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## ph0enix

LOUISSSSS said:


> you're one of those who are a little sensitive and can't bare to hear the truth?


Where is the truth you speak of? You're keep spewing statements that hold no water over and over again. I hate the kind of immigrants who reap the benefits this great country offers them but instead of embracing it, they choose to sh*t on it every chance they get instead. You seem to fit the bill. How far off am I?


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## PhD in Cycology

Come on people, a little civility please... all the personal insults do is undermine your credibility and weaken your arguments...

I don't mean to fan the fire, but in case anyone is unaware... Liquigas' own Francesco Chicchi showed his heels to Mark Cavendish et al today en route to winning Tour of California Stage Four--aboard his ASIAN-BUILT AMERICAN-PAINTED Super Six Sheriff bike... looks like there's a new sheriff in town


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## LOUISSSSS

ph0enix said:


> Where is the truth you speak of? You're keep spewing statements that hold no water over and over again. I hate the kind of immigrants who reap the benefits this great country offers them but instead of embracing it, they choose to sh*t on it every chance they get instead. You seem to fit the bill. How far off am I?


This is the truth:



> okay just stop the arguing. the caad9 IS going to be moved to Asia. americans WILL lose their jobs. A better bike will be built. Cannondale will profit more. You will still buy their bikes.


i know you'd love to take this to a personal level and spew personal attacks like you've already, but lets try not to be in high school again, ok?

Once again, the truth is that the CAAD will be moved to Asia for production. Why? because they can make the same quality bike for less money; which in turn means they can make a higher quality bike for an equal amount of money. Another part of the truth is that americans will lose their jobs because of this (although i'm not 100% sure on this, cannondale may just be hiring more people) if they plan to shut down a production plant. Why are they losing their jobs? because they refuse to work for less. If they are all willing to cut their wages in half or 75%, they may still have a job.


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## ph0enix

PhD in Cycology said:


> Come on people, a little civility please... all the personal insults do is undermine your credibility and weaken your arguments...
> 
> I don't mean to fan the fire, but in case anyone is unaware... Liquigas' own Francesco Chicchi showed his heels to Mark Cavendish et al today en route to winning Tour of California Stage Four--aboard his ASIAN-BUILT AMERICAN-PAINTED Super Six Sheriff bike... looks like there's a new sheriff in town


Good stuff!


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## fazzman

Cannondale needs to edit the factory tour videos. Explaining how they have an advantage because they dont have to wait for a boat to arrive to get the product. Classic.


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## junior varsity

@PHD, does that stand for Piled High and Deep?

@George, the workers in Asia are being paid a living wage. PPP has a lot a strange effects. Look up the Big Mac index on the net or PPP/(insert any currency here) index in the back of every weekly Economist.

if you're bored give this a read. Paul Krugman might make you think more about the world as a whole. Or should I say, a Macro level....

I have a feeling Adam Smith's invisiable hand is going to lay down a smack in about a month...


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## 2ndGen

fazzman said:


> Cannondale needs to edit the factory tour videos. Explaining how they have an advantage because they dont have to wait for a boat to arrive to get the product. Classic.


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## 2ndGen

Seems like Cannondale is either having problems keeping up with demand or their production began to fail recently.

In reading through the various forums, I've often come across buyer who've said that they had to wait for their bikes and that there were numerous delays.

Did these "problems" begin before or after Dorel bought Cannondale in 2008?


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## PhD in Cycology

@JV... Good one... It's kind of a joke, because I bailed on grad school to return to working in the bike industry--I like to say that instead of finishing my Psychology graduate degree, I changed my major to Cycology...

@2nd Gen... I'm sorry man, but you simply have no idea what you are talking about. You seem hell bent on finding fault with Cannondale--so much so that I really wonder about your intentions... I started working in a Cannondale store in 1992--I can tell you this: They have always made incredible bikes, but they have often had problems with supply. This has been a problem that has affected every brand in the bike industry this year. It seems there is a lot you don't understand about the situation, you really should do some more research before posting arguments that have no merit.


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## 2ndGen

PhD in Cycology said:


> @2nd Gen... I'm sorry man, but you simply have no idea what you are talking about. You seem hell bent on finding fault with Cannondale--so much so that I really wonder about your intentions... I started working in a Cannondale store in 1992--I can tell you this: They have always made incredible bikes, but they have often had problems with supply. This has been a problem that has affected every brand in the bike industry this year. It seems there is a lot you don't understand about the situation, you really should do some more research before posting arguments that have no merit.


Your answer to my question "Did these "problems" begin before or after Dorel bought Cannondale in 2008?" 
is that Cannondale has *always *had problems meeting their demand?

And, how can someone have an idea of what they are talking about in asking a question?

"That" is the purpose of the question! :lol:

And!

What do you call asking questions about something I don't know?

"Not" research? :lol:


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## Devastator

2ndGen said:


> Seems like Cannondale is either having problems keeping up with demand or their production began to fail recently.
> 
> In reading through the various forums, I've often come across buyer who've said that they had to wait for their bikes and that there were numerous delays.
> 
> Did these "problems" begin before or after Dorel bought Cannondale in 2008?


Hows your Trek 1.5 stack up against a CAAD?


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## 2ndGen

Devastator said:


> Hows your Trek 1.5 stack up against a CAAD?


It doesn't even compare. 
Two different rides.
The Trek is smoother, I'll say that. 
The CAAD just has a tighter feel. 
I notice the difference when I step on it and in high speed turns.
Until I can afford plastic, it'll do nicely for long high speed leisurely rides.


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## 2ndGen

PhD in Cycology said:


> Come on people, a little civility please... all the *personal insults* do is undermine your credibility and weaken your arguments...


*Then...*



PhD in Cycology said:


> I'm sorry man, but you simply have no idea what you are talking about....
> It seems there is a lot you don't understand about the situation,
> you really should do some more research before posting arguments that have no merit.


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## LOUISSSSS

2ndGen said:


> *Then...*
> 
> ]


so when you're out of things to say and have clearly lost your argument, you post useless pictures and resort to personal attacks. you lost here already can't you see?


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## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> so when you're out of things to say and have clearly lost your argument, you post useless pictures and resort to personal attacks. you lost here already can't you see?


Um, "what" argument did I lose?

Didn't even know I was "in" an argument.

I asked a simple question on Cannondale's ability to keep up with demand. 
Was this a result of their being bought by a foreign company?
The answer came through loud and clear...NO! 
They always had problems keeping up with demand.

Where do you see a loss in an argument there?


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## 2ndGen

LOUISSSSS said:


> so when you're out of things to say and have clearly lost your argument, you post useless pictures and resort to personal attacks. you lost here already can't you see?


Oh, and "where" is my personal attack?


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## Devastator

Anyone find it ironic, that the two biggest trolls dont ride Cannondales.


----------

