# Not so quick USADA!



## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

http://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-has-not-been-stripped-of-his-tour-de-france-titles-2012-8

Our unemployment rate is at a record high and we have been suffering for years but yet we still have time an money go do a witch hunt. 

The worst part is when we demand other authorities and governing parties that we don't have jurisdiction to do what we see fit.

The worst drugs are the one all over our streets. It ruins families an turns neighborhoods to a unsafe place for decent families to live in.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

.......... And this is relevant to which issue in particular?


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

kiwisimon said:


> .......... And this is relevant to which issue in particular?


I'm sorry. I just posted the link for an article.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Lance Armstrong Has NOT Been Stripped Of His Tour De France Titles - Business Insider
That is a factually inaccurate article and completely fails to mention WADA. Looks like a rehash of Lance PR. This thread could be going to doping so I'll stop.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

zone5 said:


> http://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-has-not-been-stripped-of-his-tour-de-france-titles-2012-8
> 
> Our unemployment rate is at a record high and we have been suffering for years but yet we still have time an money go do a witch hunt.
> 
> ...


First, in before the move.

Second, USADA is a non govt organization. They're grant-funded, and while the do receive a large grant from ONDCP it's a relative drop in the bucket. Further, the money would be allocated whether they'd pursued LA or not, that's how grants work. So, in short, this has no impact on your "suffering" or the unemployment rate. Zero. None.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

zone5 said:


> I'm sorry. I just posted the link for an article.


looks like you didn't think either - it's an old story, it's business insider (cause, yea, I go to them to see who won the stage in the giro :mad2 and you're whole "we have high unemployment but we have money for a witch hunt" gives you two idiot points: one for using the money defense and the other for using "witch hunt"

Please, think. Read.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

stormchaser395 said:


> The worst drugs are the one all over our streets. It ruins families an turns neighborhoods to a unsafe place for decent families to live in.
> 
> 12.7 Billon last year spent on the war on drugs. Talk about a waste of taxpayers money


At least it is for the sake of everyone! That I don't mind. 

Name one family that never got affected by DRUGS! As far as doping in the sport, it doesn't kill anyone or ruin neighborhoods and communities.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

zone5 said:


> At least it is for the sake of everyone! That I don't mind.
> 
> Name one family that never got affected by DRUGS! As far as doping in the sport, it doesn't kill anyone or ruin neighborhoods and communities.


This is such a a stupid line of thought I can't even respond I'm laughing so hard - and crying.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Rotflmfao*



zone5 said:


> At least it is for the sake of everyone! That I don't mind.
> 
> Name one family that never got affected by DRUGS! As far as doping in the sport, it doesn't kill anyone or ruin neighborhoods and communities.



Pssst, Tom Simpson and Marco Pantani have invited you to a secret poker game, I will bring the chips


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

zone5 said:


> At least it is for the sake of everyone! That I don't mind.
> 
> Name one family that never got affected by DRUGS! As far as doping in the sport, it doesn't kill anyone or ruin neighborhoods and communities.


really? want to look up "mysterious deaths" of young promising endurance athletes in the 90s?


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

ronderman said:


> This is such a a stupid line of thought I can't even respond I'm laughing so hard - and crying.


LOL right there with you. You responded perfectly!!!


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Moving along.....


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

zone5 said:


> At least it is for the sake of everyone! That I don't mind.
> 
> Name one family that never got affected by DRUGS! As far as doping in the sport, it doesn't kill anyone or ruin neighborhoods and communities.


what is your personal experience with drugs?


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

zone5 said:


> Moving along.....


you started this thread and offer no opinion to start, then you get educated to address your mistaken belief that PEDs are safe and then you bail .... Good luck with that as a modus operandi.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

zone5 said:


> Moving along.....


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Oxtox said:


> what is your personal experience with drugs?


I got two siblings that reached rock bottom. One got so high that he called 911 on himself and both his kids watched him get high on Meth and also watched him get arrested.

The other one steals from my parents for his supposedly legal drug.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*not fun*



zone5 said:


> I got two siblings that reached rock bottom. One got so high that he called 911 on himself and both his kids watched him get high on Meth and also watched him get arrested.
> 
> The other one steals from my parents for his supposedly legal drug.


One of my siblings died, one of mine went to rehab and relapsed and every 2 or 3 years I get the semi cogent call, the other one tries to find herself and after 25 years, I have to see her come back and tell me about the trip. All thanks to illegal/legal drugs. There is no line to draw here. If a drug is deemed illegal, and you take the drug, you have broken the law. Rather simple. NOTE: I am not judging medical weed or euthanasia, I am merely stating a cold hard fact. Doesnt even matter if the drug is taken to stop a disease, you know the non approved drugs. BUT, the real deal is 2 fold

1)Why are you comparing your siblings to the athlete? Answer: the both did a drug illegally.

2)I cant compare anything. Since Mr Deadwrong doped, he gained an "illegal" advantage. BUT the thing that irks me, really irks me, is that the science did not catch him faster. I have learned both from life, and from sports that you believe in yourself and what others do. Athletes are human, even cancer survivors who dope.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

ttug said:


> 2)I cant compare anything. Since Mr Deadwrong doped, he gained an "illegal" advantage. BUT the thing that irks me, really irks me, is that the science did not catch him faster. I have learned both from life, and from sports that you believe in yourself and what others do. Athletes are human, even cancer survivors who dope.


Exactly! What really irritates me is how they can focus on one individual and just continue and it will not probably end. Spend that money on r&d for a a much stricter and more efficient anti doping program.

I don't buy this "he said, she said." There is no smoking gun but yet they trust other athletes that also dope and probably continues to do so. Who is USADA to say that they are a "reliable source" if they threaten to peruse them if they don't testify.

Bottom line in my opinion, the 7 TDF wins weighs less than what his charity and cause to help cancer.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

zone5 said:


> Bottom line in my opinion, the 7 TDF wins weighs less than what his charity and cause to help cancer.


Glad you came back.


Agree so thats why the TDF wins shouldn't be acknowledged. Trouble is he built his cancer legacy on fis wins gained by doping. Slippery slope his lawyers have wisely chosen to avoid.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

zone5 said:


> ...The worst drugs are the one all over our streets. It ruins families an turns neighborhoods to a unsafe place for decent families to live in.


Nah, our government and society wastes huge amounts of money on the witch hunt involving illegal drug use and distribution. Street drugs are a miniscule cost to society (in terms of illness, lost production, family stress and failures, etc.) compared to alcohol and tobacco. Very tiny in comparison, and most of the costs are due to them being illegal.

It's outrageous that a young person's life can be so hugely and tragically impacted by the harsh and unreasonable punishments associated with the simple use of something like pot or other recreational drugs. A travesty. Totally out of line.

I'm not saying illegal drugs don't have any impact on individuals, families and society, just that to waste money on that aspect rather than alcohol and tobacco and to have ridiculously harsh punishments for young people who are using and harming no one but themselves is stupid and unthinking.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Camilo said:


> Nah, our government and society wastes huge amounts of money on the witch hunt involving illegal drug use and distribution. Street drugs are a miniscule cost to society (in terms of illness, lost production, family stress and failures, etc.) compared to alcohol and tobacco. Very tiny in comparison, and most of the costs are due to them being illegal.


You probably haven't seen a meth addict loose all their teeth and how they can go for a whole week without eating. I'm sorry, but if you loose everything to meth, it extends not only to the addict but the family.

Making illegal,legal drugs to EPO doping is miles apart. 

The issue here is spending all that money on 1 individual that probably won't benefit the masses. 

I have not met a person that can win 7 TDF. 

How many people know someone that can win or has won 7 TDF tittles.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

zone5 said:


> I have not met a person that can win 7 TDF.
> 
> How many people know someone that can win or has won 7 TDF tittles.


No one has ever won more than five so you can't meet someone that has won seven.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

zone5 said:


> You probably haven't seen a meth addict loose all their teeth and how they can go for a whole week without eating. I'm sorry, but if you loose everything to meth, it extends not only to the addict but the family.


The point is though that the legal drugs are far, far worse of a burden on society. Sure a meth addict is a sad thing but are a drop in the bucket compared to the alcoholics out there. And some illegal drugs are no worse than alcohol and some much more benign. Yet prisons are filled with people in the drug trade (often enough the low level dealer, just selling to supply their own habit) and people including by-standers die due to the illicit trade. When was the last time someone got shot over an alcohol deal?

Not to mention, the very underlying assumption that if drugs weren't illegal use and abuse would increase may not be correct as demonstrated by Portugal. Any sensible drug policy at a minimum would legalize marijuana and hope that folks used it as an alternative to alcohol and other drugs.

And while tobacco doesn't wreck lives it certainly ends them early, more so than every other drug including alcohol combined by a long ways.

Lets face it, you can get just about any drug you want despite their illegality and that's not likely to change in a relatively open, free society. The sooner we embrace harm reduction as the goal rather than some unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky winning of a war on drugs the sooner there will be less families out there ruined by drugs.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

zone5 said:


> You probably haven't seen a meth addict loose all their teeth and how they can go for a whole week without eating. I'm sorry, but if you loose everything to meth, it extends not only to the addict but the family.
> 
> Making illegal,legal drugs to EPO doping is miles apart.
> 
> ...





Dwayne Barry said:


> The point is though that the legal drugs are far, far worse of a burden on society. Sure a meth addict is a sad thing but are a drop in the bucket compared to the alcoholics out there. And some illegal drugs are no worse than alcohol and some much more benign. Yet prisons are filled with people in the drug trade (often enough the low level dealer, just selling to supply their own habit) and people including by-standers die due to the illicit trade. When was the last time someone got shot over an alcohol deal?
> 
> Not to mention, the very underlying assumption that if drugs weren't illegal use and abuse would increase may not be correct as demonstrated by Portugal. Any sensible drug policy at a minimum would legalize marijuana and hope that folks used it as an alternative to alcohol and other drugs.
> 
> ...


Thanks - exactly what I was trying to say, which he apparently didn't get.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Chris-X said:


> Lawmaker says push for review of doping agency not about Armstrong - latimes.com
> 
> _“USADA’s new, self-imposed rules do not provide athletes appropriate due process rights which all other Americans enjoy,” Rubio’s letter said._
> 
> Complete nonsense....


Typical politician parasite. These guys waste more taxpayer money on stuff like this to get on the nightly news than USADA ever dreamed of. He's right about one thing: it won't be about LA...that ship has already sailed.


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## PinarelloGirl (Aug 26, 2012)

*Michael Rubio + Lance Armstrong = sleazebags*

This is the same sleazebag Michael Rubio who strongly supports the $117 billion boondoggle high speed rail that won’t be high speed throughout the route as promised to the voters, and to top it off, there is already a huge projected funding gap. Rubio thumbed his nose at his constituency who were overwhelming against the rail project; instead he voted in line with Jerry Brown (brown-noser!). Rubio continues to waste more taxpayer money by going after the USADA. Par for the course for this politician who represents the dishonesty that is pervasive in California politics. Michael Rubio is a good match for Lance Armstrong -- they both struggle with the truth.




Chris-X said:


> Lawmaker says push for review of doping agency not about Armstrong - latimes.com
> 
> _“USADA’s new, self-imposed rules do not provide athletes appropriate due process rights which all other Americans enjoy,” Rubio’s letter said._
> 
> Complete nonsense....


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

Dr. F in 3, 2,...


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

blackhat said:


> First, in before the move.
> 
> Second, USADA is a non govt organization. They're grant-funded, and while the do receive a large grant from ONDCP it's a relative drop in the bucket. Further, the money would be allocated whether they'd pursued LA or not, that's how grants work. So, in short, this has no impact on your "suffering" or the unemployment rate. Zero. None.


"In July, Congressman Sensenbrenner sent an open letter to the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) querying the $9 million dollars of taxpayer funding given to USADA."


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Who would call 9 million dollars a "drop in the bucket?" 

Taxpayer's money not being used wisely!

To top it off USADA lawyers also represent the big TOBACCO companies and yes LA is a big advocate for ANTI TOBACCO.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

zone5 said:


> Who would call 9 million dollars a "drop in the bucket?"


So it's a quiet day at work today...

National Drug Control Budget FY12: $26.2 billion
9m/26.2bn = 0.03%

Standard bucket volume: 10 litres
Standard drop of water volume: 0.05 millilitres
0.05/10,000 = 0.001%

So really it's not a drop in the bucket - it's 69 drops. Still hardly worth worrying about


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

zone5 said:


> To top it off USADA lawyers also represent the big TOBACCO companies and yes LA is a big advocate for ANTI TOBACCO.












69 drops is 69 times more than USADA would want us to believe. They must be lying about everything else too.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Can someone tell me if anyone else got hunted down like LA? 

Out of all the sports, of course they will hit cycling. I'm sure they'd find some more in Basketball, Football, Hockey and Baseball but those organization have to much backing and money.

If any if you don't have a problem with your tax money going to BS that doesn't really help you in any angle you look at it, then why don't you yourself write USADA a check so that we don't have to waste ours.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

This again? Really?


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## fontarin (Mar 28, 2009)

zone5 said:


> Who would call 9 million dollars a "drop in the bucket?"
> 
> Taxpayer's money not being used wisely!
> 
> To top it off USADA lawyers also represent the big TOBACCO companies and yes LA is a big advocate for ANTI TOBACCO.



Patton Boggs, who represents Lance/Livestrong, has been paid to lobby for tobacco in the past. The tobacco angle is pretty much a last ditch effort, and a pretty obviously desperate one at that.


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## brentley (Jul 20, 2008)

zone5 said:


> Who would call 9 million dollars a "drop in the bucket?"
> 
> Taxpayer's money not being used wisely!
> 
> To top it off USADA lawyers also represent the big TOBACCO companies and yes LA is a big advocate for ANTI TOBACCO.


Wow, I am really sorry that you are so blinded. Read the press release and then go ahead and read the report. If they have even a fraction of the evidence they claim this is not going to reflect well on LA. 

And they do go after other athletes for similar things, remember Barry Bonds? Roger Clemens?


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Fireform said:


> This again? Really?



No kidding.



A day late and a dollar short.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

zone5 said:


> Can someone tell me if anyone else got hunted down like LA?
> 
> Out of all the sports, of course they will hit cycling. I'm sure they'd find some more in Basketball, Football, Hockey and Baseball but those organization have to much backing and money.
> 
> If any if you don't have a problem with your tax money going to BS that doesn't really help you in any angle you look at it, then why don't you yourself write USADA a check so that we don't have to waste ours.


Yawn....address the charges or move on. Sounding like a fan boy.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

kiwisimon said:


> Yawn....address the charges or move on. Sounding like a fan boy.


I'm not a fan! I can care less what happens to LA I just want fairness. 

All pro athletes should undergo scrutiny at this level not just the not so mainstream Pro Cyclists.


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

zone5 said:


> I'm not a fan! I can care less what happens to LA I just want fairness.
> 
> All pro athletes should undergo scrutiny at this level not just the not so mainstream Pro Cyclists.


So let me get this straight..........

You don't want justice for the thief that robbed your house because the police couldn't catch all other thieves in town to be prosecuted. 

Because we can't have a perfect system, we should not bother at all?

The repercussions for widespread doping in football, soccer, baseball etc will come home to roost someday. Probably not from enforcement agencies, more likely from long term health issues. That will not be pretty.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

PaleAleYum said:


> The repercussions for widespread doping in football, soccer, baseball etc will come home to roost someday. Probably not from enforcement agencies, more likely from long term health issues. That will not be pretty.


It's already started. Many former NFL players have developed health problems at relatively early ages, like mid-50s. Not just brain damage from multiple concussions, but various forms of cancer that likely resulted from PED use. The difference in weight among starting linemen from 1950-1980, as opposed to those over the last 30 years, is striking. I remember when Roger Brown of the Browns and later the Rams, was the only NFL player who weighed 300 lbs. That was in the 1960s. Hall of Famers from the 1970s, guys like John Hannah, weighed about 260. Nowadays the average weight across a typical offensive line is about 325 lbs. Is that due to better nutrition and more advanced training? :lol:


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## slegros (Sep 22, 2009)

Chris-X said:


> Lawmaker says push for review of doping agency not about Armstrong - latimes.com
> 
> _“USADA’s new, self-imposed rules do not provide athletes appropriate due process rights which all other Americans enjoy,” Rubio’s letter said._
> 
> Complete nonsense....


Needs to be done.... LA should have been done years ago. A LOT of things weren't working right for it to go on this long....

The USADA process also needs improvement, as the case of USADA vs. LaTasha Jenkins highlighted:

http://law.pepperdine.edu/dispute-resolution-law-journal/issues/volume-ten/Straubel Article.pdf

To quote the final paragraph:

IX. BIG PICTURE REMEDY
The story of USADA v. Jenkins reveals a system created by a monopoly that wields power without sufficient restriction or balance. The system’s current flaws can be addressed by adopting the above specific suggestions. However, as much as athletes would like to be optimistic, those suggestions are not likely to be adopted or sustained until the monopoly’s powers are countervailed in one of three ways:
(1)The legal fiction that sustains the monopoly, namely the theory of voluntary association, is replaced with a legal doctrine that recognizes the monopolistic power of sports governing bodies; or
(2)An athletes’ union with genuine bargaining power is organized, perhaps starting with United States based union organized under U.S. Labor Law; or
(3)A court finds that USADA (and potentially other National Anti- Doping Organizations) is a state actor and that participation in sports is a property right that can only be taken away through constitutionally restrained methods.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Sickened by the Dopestrong apologists who, if they had thier way, would have gladly let Lance and his cronies cover this up for ever ... omerta writ large.

Kudos and nothing but respect for the USADA for thier work - hope it leads to cleaner Pro Cycling.


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