# Is there anything more dangerous than a 4/5 crit?



## T-Doc (Apr 4, 2002)

Friend went down last week and broke c7! Had to have it plated emergently. 
Be careful out there. We're not racing for big bucks or trophys...usually a gift certificate, a pair of socks and bragging rights. It's not worth risking life, limb, and lost wages. Actually we split the group into separate 4 and 5 races this week and it was much safer due to the smaller fields.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Yes, there are plenty of things that are more dangerous. HTFU.


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## T-Doc (Apr 4, 2002)

Andrea138 said:


> Yes, there are plenty of things that are more dangerous. HTFU.


HTFU!!!??? so you are saying only big balled manly cyclists race and don't care if they break their necks? This forum is the most schizophrenic site I have ever seen. You guys can have it.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

T-Doc said:


> HTFU!!!??? so you are saying only big balled manly cyclists race and don't care if they break their necks? This forum is the most schizophrenic site I have ever seen. You guys can have it.


on of the local riders broke her back riding in a group of 4 on a narrow road. She missed the turn and hit a cactus. Is there anything more dangerous than riding in small groups in a park?


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

T-Doc said:


> Friend went down last week and broke c7! Had to have it plated emergently.
> Be careful out there. We're not racing for big bucks or trophys...usually a gift certificate, a pair of socks and bragging rights. It's not worth risking life, limb, and lost wages. Actually we split the group into separate 4 and 5 races this week and it was much safer due to the smaller fields.


Well, I think the speed and danger is part of the attraction.

I don't do crits, for one because I'm more into mtb, but also because I don't like putting my safety in the hands in a bunch of sketchy, adrenaline-addled riders. The one or two road races per year I do are enough to remind me why I don't do crits.

In mtb and cross racing, it's (generally) your own fault when you crash.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

If you're not racing to win, you're not racing. (even if you have no chance of winning)

"It's not worth risking life, limb, and lost wages."

Yes it is.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

T-Doc said:


> Friend went down last week and broke c7! Had to have it plated emergently.
> Be careful out there. We're not racing for big bucks or trophys...usually a gift certificate, a pair of socks and bragging rights. It's not worth risking life, limb, and lost wages. Actually we split the group into separate 4 and 5 races this week and it was much safer due to the smaller fields.



In reality most races are raced for gobs of money and they only get faster and more aggressive as you move up, heck the masters races for all their rep as tha safe fast races are only "safe" cause moste everyone knows what the deal is their still really aggressive and onece you in the 1,2s forget about it.


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

I think the danger factor is also related to number of entrants. When you have a large field of cat 4/5s you have the potential for some danger. More races should restrict the number of races imo. 100 plus riders in a narrow 2 lane road with no shoulder or trees alongside a lot of turns is asking for something. 
One mentioned cross being safer. I think part of that is smaller field sizes.
Riding a bike is not the safest type of exercise one can do.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

"emergently" is my new favorite word.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

That sucks your friend got hurt but cycling is dangerous.. Football hurts a lot of people yet everyone still plays it. 

My first race ever was a Crit.. I almost got thrown on the first turn because someone braked too hard entering and screwed up my line and everyone around me. I narrowly avoided the curb and sewer grate. I ended up blowing by the guy but it could have been the worst wreck of the race..


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I think I've seen my share of crashes for the year and had one that wasn't too severe. 

Anyway, crits are a necessary evil since they're much easier to put on. IMHO, I think a glance at the course will tell you a lot right there. Almost every course will yield crashes in every category when it's wet. 

I guess I'm lucky in the sense that my local fields aren't usually that large. Given there's no real payout in 4/5, I don't think there's enough reward to justify risk at this point. Perhaps I might change my opinion when I move to Cat 4 next year, but I've seen more than a few riders have to miss out on multiple races because they were injured in a crit.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

vanjr said:


> One mentioned cross being safer. I think part of that is smaller field sizes.


Small field sizes in cross. Good one.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

T-Doc said:


> HTFU!!!??? so you are saying only big balled manly cyclists race and don't care if they break their necks? This forum is the most schizophrenic site I have ever seen. You guys can have it.


Correction, Andrea has been schizophrenic lately


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

The nice thing about racing is you can choose the races you want to participate in. If you don't like crits, don't race them...pretty simple really.

As for crits themselves...I won't race them unless I have to because they are part of a stage race (which I wish they would take them out personally). 

I agree, they are by far the most dangerous form of bicycle racing there is when it comes to crashing and haven't been in a crit yet where I didn't see at least one crash in my race....and other classes as well.

Next year I will be "Crit Free" as I won't be doing any stage races and refuse to race independent crits...people are way to aggressive for no pay off other than some fleeting glory. I prefer to keep my skin, bones and other body parts intact and honestly love my wife too much to compete in them...she won't go watch me race in them due to the number of crashes that happen in them.

BTW...size of the fields isn't the issue, it's the aggressive nature of the crits themselves. Combine that with the speed at which they are raced and racers getting tired near the end of the crit and the decrease in control that comes with the racers being very tired...leads to bad choices on the road and crashes in the end.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

pretender said:


> Small field sizes in cross. Good one.


My thoughts as well  Raced cross last year and had field sizes in the 110-130 range. The race was won or lost on the first turn...if you were not in the top 20 by that time, you were not going to win. 

After the first 20 or so racers went through the first corner it was a complete bottleneck and those that were able to stay on their bikes were able put so much distance on the other racers that they were gone and everybody else was racing for a mid pack finish.

However, crashing in cross isn't that bad due to the generally crappy conditions you race in...i.e. softer ground due to it being mud...and slower speeds you race at.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Wookiebiker said:


> However, crashing in cross isn't that bad due to the generally crappy conditions you race in...i.e. softer ground due to it being mud...and slower speeds you race at.


Also the field stretches out really quickly, whereas in crits it remains bunched up.

The only cases I've heard of people breaking collarbones in cross is trying to bunnyhop the barriers.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

I understand from a promoters perspective why they do 4/5 combo races, but I think the 50 rider field limit for the 5's is there for good reason and ought to be followed.


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

pretender said:


> Small field sizes in cross. Good one.


OK I live in an area of small cross races. In my personal experience never had a cross race with more than 10 people. Crits usually much bigger. I guess I have seen bigger fields on youtube come to think of it...


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

vanjr said:


> OK I live in an area of small cross races. In my personal experience never had a cross race with more than 10 people. Crits usually much bigger. I guess I have seen bigger fields on youtube come to think of it...


Here are some results from just one Cross Crusade race last year: http://app.obra.org/events/13310/results

Several classes had 120+ racers and the average field size looks to be 80-90 racers


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)




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## iktome (Aug 29, 2003)

Cat 3 crits are more dangerous that 4/5 crits. And 1/2 crits are more dangerous that cat 3 crits.

The "Crash 5s" get a lot of bad press, but I think that's more because the people racing in those fields want to complain about the people they race with (thereby demonstrating to the rest of us that they have superior skills). That's what I did (and probably why I did it). But I've seen more stupidity in Pro/1/2 fields then I ever saw in Cat 5 fields. And that stupidity is performed at a substantially higher pace.

If you think a 4/5 crit is too dangerous, you might find something else to do. It just gets worse.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> If you're not racing to win, you're not racing. (even if you have no chance of winning)
> 
> "It's not worth risking life, limb, and lost wages."
> 
> Yes it is.



This is just part of the selection process. Poor handling/unsafe riders are weeded out fairly quickly.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

T-Doc said:


> Is there anything more dangerous than a cat 4/5 crit?


Yes, a cat 4 central park race.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

I race crits almost exclusively. My riding style and skill is sprinting and the constant accelerations. I love the group sprint finish.

Road races typically have hills durring which a group gets away and I am in the follow pack. And I get bored.

Yes crits tend to have more crashes and I have been crashed twice this year (not my fault, just ran out of road trying to avoid or guy in front of me went down) but have not been hurt. Both times in a corner at about 25. I think all my mountain bike crashes and years of bodybuilding have helped me fall graciously and be built like a tank. 

Just my .02.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

iktome said:


> Cat 3 crits are more dangerous that 4/5 crits. And 1/2 crits are more dangerous that cat 3 crits.
> 
> The "Crash 5s" get a lot of bad press, but I think that's more because the people racing in those fields want to complain about the people they race with (thereby demonstrating to the rest of us that they have superior skills). That's what I did (and probably why I did it). But I've seen more stupidity in Pro/1/2 fields then I ever saw in Cat 5 fields. And that stupidity is performed at a substantially higher pace.
> 
> If you think a 4/5 crit is too dangerous, you might find something else to do. It just gets worse.


Agreed. I still feel cat3 is the worse.


cat4/5: people get bumped on accident and the whole field goes down.
cat3: some people can bump, but many still can't. It's faster, so crashes are still plenty and extra painful. More young guys willing to risk life and limb, too.
cat1/2: people know how to bump into each other and stay upright. The bad part is that everyone knows this, so they do it on purpose. Accidents happen.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

and the pros are probably the worst of all since a lot of pro sprinters would rather crash than lose and take huge risks.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

This is true...











Crits are fun. The fact that there is a higher risk of injury than when you're sitting on your couch is part of what makes them fun.


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## Steve-O (Jan 28, 2004)

*Course has a lot to do with it*

No matter what the category is I would say that the course has a lot to do with it. Our local Tuesday twilight series uses a pretty conventional rectangular 4 corner crit course and rarely does someone go down in any of the categories. In contrast I have seen some pretty twisty courses where it seems someone is going down every couple of laps!


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## takl23 (Jul 22, 2007)

I've done two crits this year and have only seen on bad move and that was last week in the first turn, a guy came sweeping across a bunch of us to get to the inside of the first turn which was a narrow 90 degree right hander. He got his ace reemed out by everyone around him and he behaved after that. I agree people do dumb things, but fortunatley around here they're few and far between I think.

I've seen a lot of races around here where they've grouped the 3' into the pro/1/2 fields so they usually get shelled out the back and they're of no conern anymore 

Tim


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## scarecrow (Oct 7, 2007)

Riding your bike on the street by yourself is more dangerous than any Crit. A distracted person in a 3,000 lb machine is where people get seriously hurt. Do what you enjoy.


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## moab63 (Aug 7, 2006)

*Yes a beginner motorcycle roadrace*

in the 600 cc size(middle weights) at willow springs track. or even the expert class.

I think the cat 3's are pretty scary too. But 4/5 are the kings and in a nontechnical course they much worst, because is all muscle no brains or skills.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

The course is the problem, not the racers. 

Where I'm from some of the crits this year have been over the top stupid. Quarter mile straight down into a narrow corner with jagged square curbs with 50 riders haulling ***. They're doing more of these courses because it's more interesting to the spectators. All the spectators are at the bottom of the hill at the corner waiting for the crash, you won't find a single spectator at any other part of the course. We're the meat on display trying to raise funds for some stupid cause that doesn't do any of us any good.

I watched the Pro/1/2 race after I finished mine and was horrified at the speeds down that hill, if they had gone down they could have been killed easily.

The guy that checks us in and gives us are timing braclets crashed in a crit a few years ago, he's paralyzed from the waist down, married with a daughter. He was a cat 3. 

And money doesn't mean anything. Nobody makes money from cycling, it will always be put back into the sport at some point, perhaps years later when you're no longer winning.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

heathb said:


> The course is the problem, not the racers.


Usually, the problem is that some of the racers refuse to ride within the limits of their skill (which should require factoring in the course). Unfortunately, that may be nearly as dangerous for many other riders in the pack as it is for the riders who are so casual about changing their lines in the corners, sloppy sprinting, general inattentiveness, etc. I feel somewhat less threatened on a technical crit course, because I'm more conscious of riding very close to the front (and there's often less wasted energy in doing so early in the race) and fewer riders who have been sitting in throughout the race try to get to the front over the last couple of laps, both of which reduce the number of bonehead moves that could impact my race.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

heathb said:


> The course is the problem, not the racers.
> 
> Where I'm from some of the crits this year have been over the top stupid. Quarter mile straight down into a narrow corner with jagged square curbs with 50 riders haulling ***. They're doing more of these courses because it's more interesting to the spectators. All the spectators are at the bottom of the hill at the corner waiting for the crash, you won't find a single spectator at any other part of the course. We're the meat on display trying to raise funds for some stupid cause that doesn't do any of us any good.
> .


Funny, it seems to be the flat, not-technical crits around here that really have the pile-ups. 
throw in some elevation and some tight turns and the pack is much more strung out.


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## ping771 (Apr 10, 2006)

den bakker said:


> Funny, it seems to be the flat, not-technical crits around here that really have the pile-ups.
> throw in some elevation and some tight turns and the pack is much more strung out.


So true, since we think it's safe and rely on the guys in front to hold their line....not always.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

A week ago this past Thursday a new rider in the Cat 4/5 crits in Austin, Tx crashed hitting his head. A few days later he wast taken off life support. I don't know how many racers die annually in licensed races-I assume very small to the point that years may go by without deaths, but it happens. Of course a lot more riders are killed just riding on the road not racing. My thoughts is that amature racing is much safer than merely riding on the road in terms of fatal and near fatal accidents and racing is much more dangerous in terms of relatively minor or non life threating accidents.


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## s4one (Jun 8, 2008)

Andrea138 said:


> This is true...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey I rode with that guy before, he gave me a clif bar before the montrose ride.. nice guy..


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

s4one said:


> Hey I rode with that guy before, he gave me a clif bar before the montrose ride.. nice guy..


Bahati, last years crit champion. Often on the montrose ride in LA and yes seems like a nice and well liked guy. He donated his price money and got a collection started when one of his team mates had a gnarly crash some months ago and had his teeth remodeled.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

I got to meet him through my previous team... really nice guy, and he said that at this year's championship he'd either win or crash.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

I think swimming in an alligator pit while wearing bacon swim trunks is much more dangerous than any crit I have ever done. I've done a lot of crits...but just 1 swim with the gators was enough for me.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

*Stage race Crits..*



Wookiebiker said:


> The nice thing about racing is you can choose the races you want to participate in. If you don't like crits, don't race them...pretty simple really.
> 
> As for crits themselves...I won't race them unless I have to because they are part of a stage race (which I wish they would take them out personally).
> 
> ...


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Gnarly 928 said:


> You race for other than 'fleeting glory"? (grin)
> 
> My mostly-Masters racing team, the leader is a very savvy racer, been around for years and years and is usually in contention for the GC win in most stage races round here. He's got a real handle on the process of winning stage races..He is focused.


With that said...*he also just won the world masters TT championship and was 3rd in the masters worlds road race*. He also had the 3rd fastest 40K ITT time in the state this year (sub 52 minute) out of all classes and he's in the 55-60 age group!!! That kinda helps in being able to jump off the front for long periods of time  

That however, is not an option for most people as they are not that much faster than the rest of the field.

In anything other than CAT P/1/2 fields break aways get chased down quickly so unless a rider is "Uber" strong they won't stay away for half the crit to be able to pull those types of tactics off.

With that said...I basically put the same strategy to work when I raced Stage Races this year. I would sit up front at the beginning of the crit and over the last three laps or so, drift back and finish with the same time instead of contesting the sprint and avoiding crashes because they took place in front of me.

However....I still will not be doing any SR's next year and crits are a large part of that. They really play no role other than potentially wearing down some of the competition and crashing others out so the "Sprinters" have a shot at winning a stage. I'd much rather have a 40 mile flat road race than a crit and just do 3 road races instead of the crit.


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