# Yet another Ti thread. FireFly or Moots



## Ydris (Feb 8, 2018)

I'm in the market for "bike of you life" - 50th birthday. I like the look of the Firefly guys (and I'm local enough to go to the shop for fittings - but I know Moots is fantastic. Anyone have any guidance, experience of either... or opinions?

Ydris


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Before you sink too much time on deciding between the two look into what Firefly's wait list time is. That might rule them out.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Before you sink too much time on deciding between the two look into what Firefly's wait list time is. That might rule them out.


OP is local to Firefly. I'd say that's worth at least a 6-month wait time minimum, assuming he doesn't need a bike like right now.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I was very pleased with my firefly build. I did not wait six months. my wait time was several weeks. It's an option but you pay extra for it. In my case I didn't want to wait a year and the pay-up was reasonable in my view.

Personally my choice was between Seven and Firefly. I think they both make great bikes. What distinguishes the two are the finishes. Seven just looks nicer and will do things Seven will not such as anodized treatment or nicer drop-outs. Both ride great and the welds and frame construction are top notch

Firefly does the majority of its bikes custom. Moots does the majority of its bikes spec. Very different process , very different design philosophy. Both are good builders, but I think Firefly and even a Seven which I threw in are a bit more special. The way they approach bike building is a little more focused on working with the customer


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Buy local, think globally.


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## tangerineowl (Sep 1, 2012)

If you're local, then Firefly all day.

Its my 50th next week and while I recently built up my ti 'bike for life', my present is going to be an even lighter wheelset; carbon this time 

Happy hunting!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> I was very pleased with my firefly build. I did not wait six months. my wait time was several weeks. It's an option but you pay extra for it. In my case I didn't want to wait a year and the pay-up was reasonable in my view.
> 
> Personally my choice was between Seven and Firefly. I think they both make great bikes. What distinguishes the two are the finishes. Seven just looks nicer and will do things Seven will not such as anodized treatment or nicer drop-outs. Both ride great and the welds and frame construction are top notch
> 
> *Firefly does the majority of its bikes custom. Moots does the majority of its bikes spec. Very different process , very different design philosophy. Both are good builders, but I think Firefly and even a Seven which I threw in are a bit more special. The way they approach bike building is a little more focused on working with the customer*


That's pretty much my understanding of the difference between the two also. 

I'm local to Firefly and considered them but in the end choose Seven. I probably would have anyway but the wait time difference made the decision a lot easier.

Seven is also local to Boston. Which, because they sell though shops may not mean a lot. But if you were to buy at Ride Studio Cafe in Lexington or Ride Headquarters in Sherborn you're essentially working directly with Seven. The questions I had were answered by the owner of Seven for example because he puts in hours at those shops. And regardless, once the measurements and stuff is done there is communication directly with the factory, if you want.

Not trying to push Seven over FF on you. But I think they should be in the conversation. More so than Moots I think. Not that I know or have ever heard anything negative about Moots though.


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## Ydris (Feb 8, 2018)

There backlog is 15 months at the moment.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Ydris said:


> There backlog is 15 months at the moment.


deal breaker for me. Waiting is one thing.....but that's a full year's less use you get out of the bike compared to a Moots or Seven.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Ydris said:


> There backlog is 15 months at the moment.


for a small fee you can jump to the front of the line. i paid it


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> deal breaker for me. Waiting is one thing.....but that's a full year's less use you get out of the bike compared to a Moots or Seven.


Yea....15 months I can understand out of a one-man artisan operation like Potts or Zinn....

But over a calendar year? Out of a studio maker? There cannot be THAT many people wanting one at the $4000+/frame price point. Which leaves either manpower or supply or sheer capital issues. Either that or they're just tooling customers to get them to pay more to jump an imaginary line.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Firefly for a small fee lets you get a frame much sooner than 15 months


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## Ydris (Feb 8, 2018)

Thank you all. I will ask them about queue jumping.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

15 months wait time is a deal breaker for me too. I understand that you can pay a small fee to jump to the front of the queue, but that just rubs me the wrong way. Unless your heart is set on FF, or you can wait the 15 months, I'd look into other local builders like the aforementioned Seven, Independent Fabrications, or Geekhouse.


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## Ydris (Feb 8, 2018)

Tachycardic said:


> but that just rubs me the wrong way.


I try to avoid morals and scruples as they get in the way... I’ll check the cost - but I will check the other guys as well!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> for a small fee you can jump to the front of the line. i paid it


yeah we got that that first couple times.

They have one welder thus one queue and to the best of my knowledge don't advertise that there is a rush fee available.
So while some view the rush fee opportunity as a positive it can also be viewed as: If you are a commoner who figures $4200 for a frame is enough already or you don't think to ask you can expect to be bumped back by palm greasers.
My opinion of that practice wouldn't be so negative if they disclosed it was going on but either way I wouldn't deal with it personally.


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## Ydris (Feb 8, 2018)

Four guys in the operation altogether. I’ll head up there soon and report back if it would be helpful.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

OP Anything against Independent Fabrications? Didn't most New England Ti guys work there at some stage? Are you looking for aesthetics or performance although if you are like me at over 50 maybe the looks are getting more and more important? I love my Carl Strong bikes.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

kiwisimon said:


> OP Anything against Independent Fabrications? *Didn't most New England Ti guys work there at some stage?* Are you looking for aesthetics or performance although if you are like me at over 50 maybe the looks are getting more and more important? I love my Carl Strong bikes.


I don't think so but the one that definitely did is Tyler at Firefly. FF started when Indy Fab moved to NH and a few guys decided not to go and instead stayed in Boston to start FF.

There's a lot connections between all the Boston area builders current and past. The company that kind of started the whole thing and spawned others is Fat Chance.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm not a ti guy and have little interest in ever owning one but the finish options on the fireflys are damn sexy. Didn't see anything similar on the Seven site.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ugh 15 months? adios for me. Lots of things can transpired in 15 months. Something might happen to me to make me stop cycling all together, then what? 6 months is my cutoff time. Plenty of other reputable builders around. FireFly is nice, but not "15 months of waiting" nice. Hell no


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Unless you currently don't have a bike to ride what is the problem with waiting a bit longer for the one that looks exactly what you want it to look like? Don't get me wrong, 15 months isn't ideal in any way, but if I ever get to the point where I want a Ti bike I will likely already own several carbon bikes and the ti bike would just be a luxury and I would want it to look like something along the lines of the firefly ones given the choice.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> yeah we got that that first couple times.
> 
> They have one welder thus one queue and to the best of my knowledge don't advertise that there is a rush fee available.
> So while some view the rush fee opportunity as a positive it can also be viewed as: If you are a commoner who figures $4200 for a frame is enough already or you don't think to ask you can expect to be bumped back by palm greasers.
> My opinion of that practice wouldn't be so negative if they disclosed it was going on but either way I wouldn't deal with it personally.


So if folks are paying to jump the queue and you are are in the regular queue, what are the chances that you literally never move forward in the queue? I personally find this practice a bit unethical


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DaveG said:


> So if folks are paying to jump the queue and you are are in the regular queue, what are the chances that you literally never move forward in the queue? I personally find this practice a bit unethical


hence the current 15-month waiting queue?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> hence the current 15-month waiting queue?


they clearly have demand. they can either do a two tier system or raise everyone's price or see the backlog grow even more. like i said i gladly paid the fee and got a bike in six weeks. i could have paid more and gotten it sooner than that. firefly does a great job, not only in building the bike but in working with the buyer.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

OP is looking for a turning-50-milestone "Bike Of Your Life" and you guys are complaining about a measly 15 month wait list? Suck it up! 50 only comes once...and it's not like he's _not_ going to be riding his other bike(s) while the milestone frame is being built.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

bought my c-59 for my 50th birthday, but several years early. life is short. eat desert first


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Bob Ross said:


> OP is looking for a *turning-50-milestone "Bike Of Your Life" and you guys are complaining about a measly 15 month wait list?* Suck it up! 50 only comes once...and it's not like he's _not_ going to be riding his other bike(s) while the milestone frame is being built.


I wouldn't say anyone is complaining but yes you have the jist of it.
But I supposed 51 and a half only comes once too so maybe waiting when you could get something just as good and not is a fine idea.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I wouldn't say anyone is complaining but yes you have the jist of it.
> But I supposed 51 and a half only comes once too so maybe waiting when you could get something just as good and not is a fine idea.


Op will still have the bike when he turns 50. And will only ride better sooner rather than later.


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## mtrac (Sep 23, 2013)

Bob Ross said:


> OP is looking for a turning-50-milestone "Bike Of Your Life" and you guys are complaining about a measly 15 month wait list? Suck it up! 50 only comes once...and it's not like he's _not_ going to be riding his other bike(s) while the milestone frame is being built.


I can't find the thread, but aren't you the one who waited eight years for a custom bike? After being told it would take six?


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

mtrac said:


> I can't find the thread, but aren't you the one who waited eight years for a custom bike? After being told it would take six?


Yeah, thread title is "The Way-yay-ting is the Haaaard-est Part" or something like that. So the idea that a 15 month wait is a "dealbreaker" for some folks is just _completely_ laughable to me.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Bob Ross said:


> Yeah, thread title is "The Way-yay-ting is the Haaaard-est Part" or something like that. So the idea that a 15 month wait is a "dealbreaker" for some folks is just _completely_ laughable to me.


I hear you. Those guys who can't wait wait a year an a half for *a bike* are complete noobs! I'm still waiting for my handmade beauty welded personally by Edoardo Bianchi himself, and have been told that I will receive it at the pearly gates. Only 40 more years (Lord willing) to go!


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

Anybody considered No.22? Their titanium frames look great and they have some beautiful finish options. I haven't heard any feedback on them, I'm just curious if the OP or anyone here has looked at them. May be an option for a dream bike. I am looking into getting a ti frame and this looks like it may fit my list.

https://22bicycles.com


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

burgrat said:


> Anybody considered No.22? Their titanium frames look great and they have some beautiful finish options. I haven't heard any feedback on them, I'm just curious if the OP or anyone here has looked at them. May be an option for a dream bike. I am looking into getting a ti frame and this looks like it may fit my list.
> 
> https://22bicycles.com


Not custom geometry. Which doesn't make them bad but kinda defeats the purpose of paying a lot and waiting for a bike.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Not custom geometry. Which doesn't make them bad but kinda defeats the purpose of paying a lot and waiting for a bike.


They do custom geometry (for $500 extra). 

Not trying to derail the thread, just thought I'd see if this would be an option for the OP and if anyone has any feedback on this brand. On a side note, I love that Moots is doing anodized "decals" now. I think those graphics look much better.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

burgrat said:


> They do custom geometry (for $500 extra).


My mistake then. Sorry, didn't realize that.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

there's a No.22 dealer near me, and I've checked out a couple of their frames. They look and feel like excellent frames.

If i were to start a ti project bike, I would consider buying just the raw frame from a good builder or buy a good used ti frame, and then have the frame anodized and partially painted or may be polished by a local shop. At this stage in my cycling life, I'm so over admiring the "ti welds" and "ti magic ride" and "ti brushed finish". What I really want is a uniquely aesthetic frame, and I feel that no builder can do this. So just give the the raw frame and I'll do the rest locally.


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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

This really comes down to how much smug you want in your frame. Moots is a level 9 smug. Those that own them literally don't believe there are any other frame makers on the planet. Firefly is a level 6, but if you pay to jump the line the smug level goes to 11. Win/win - all the smug possible AND fast delivery!

Now, if you want to really be on the cutting edge order an Engin. That is literally a one man operation. Doesn't get much more exclusive than that. The smug level was recently a 7, but went up to 9.5 when he announced that his wait list was so long he wouldn't even talk to you. Ordering recently reopened though. So the smug factor is probably down to 8 or so.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

^ and what's so special about an Engin? Looks like run of the mill stuff that you can get from any custom builder.


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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> ^ and what's so special about an Engin? Looks like run of the mill stuff that you can get from any custom builder.


It appears the joke went far over your head. 

Anyway, with road bike frames it's all kinda "run of the mill" isn't it? In the case of his mountain frames, he does some pretty nice unique stuff... Makes his own dropouts, makes his own 2 piece cnc machined chainstay yoke, makes his own ti axles, makes headtubes and bottom bracket shells himself, headtubes have a machined logo...


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## OV_Dragonman (Nov 28, 2017)

Love my Lynskey, but those finish options on the Firefly look awesome! Whatever you chose, know that you are getting a bike of a lifetime. Enjoy it!


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## tbessie (Aug 5, 2007)

DaveG said:


> So if folks are paying to jump the queue and you are are in the regular queue, what are the chances that you literally never move forward in the queue? I personally find this practice a bit unethical


When I got my Firefly, they told me the way it works is, they include in their schedule several slots (2 or 4, I think it was) every 3 months to fit in the people who pay to advance in the queue. So there are only a limited number, and they're already scheduled in, so it doesn't push anyone back.

- Tim


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tbessie said:


> When I got my Firefly, they told me the way it works is, they include in their schedule several slots (2 or 4, I think it was) every 3 months to fit in the people who pay to advance in the queue. So there are only a limited number, and they're already scheduled in, so it doesn't push anyone back.
> 
> - Tim


well being that they're like a 4 man operation, then time spent building the extra 2 or 4 bikes means time not available to build the bikes already in queue, and bikes in queue will now have to wait while they divert resource to building the other 2-4 bikes. They just planned ahead to allocate resources to reap a little more rewards from those 2-4 customers willing to pay. Ultimately, they're pitting customers against customers. Still a shady practice IMO.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> well being that they're like a 4 man operation, then time spent building the extra 2 or 4 bikes means time not available to build the bikes already in queue, and bikes in queue will now have to wait while they divert resource to building the other 2-4 bikes. They just planned ahead to allocate resources to reap a little more rewards from those 2-4 customers willing to pay. Ultimately, they're pitting customers against customers. Still a shady practice IMO.


I suppose they could justify it (to themselves and SOME customers) by working OT/Weekends on customers that paid a rush fee but going typical 9-5, or whatever, on commoners bikes and exclusively 9-5 if no such rush fees were paid.

I definitely see it that way you do though.


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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> well being that they're like a 4 man operation, then time spent building the extra 2 or 4 bikes means time not available to build the bikes already in queue, and bikes in queue will now have to wait while they divert resource to building the other 2-4 bikes. They just planned ahead to allocate resources to reap a little more rewards from those 2-4 customers willing to pay. Ultimately, they're pitting customers against customers. Still a shady practice IMO.


Not "extra". Just spots on the normal schedule that say john doe until someone pays the extra fee. At least I think that's what he's saying.


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## tbessie (Aug 5, 2007)

92gli said:


> Not "extra". Just spots on the normal schedule that say john doe until someone pays the extra fee. At least I think that's what he's saying.


Yes, that's the way it works - they schedule a certain amount of time per bike, and each slot is assigned to someone in the queue; the ones for people who pay extra are part of the schedule already, so when they are filled, the schedule does not change.

I'm not sure what happens if/when one or more of those slots isn't filled by the time it's next in the queue; I'd suppose everybody gets bumped up by as many slots as weren't filled.

The folks, above, who don't like this system, seem to be saying that if they didn't do this prescheduled allocation, then the queue would be smaller so everyone would get their bike faster. But since the queue is so huge already anyway (14 months or whatever), I think not having those prescheduled slots wouldn't make a significant difference in how fast people would get their bikes, or would just get filled up by people in the regular queue anyway.

- Tim


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

I'd buy one of these schmancy Ti bikes over a schmancy car any day. Still, I have reservations:
- I am built to the standard specifications for a 5'10" American male and have no need of custom geometry.
- I seriously doubt that these frames "ride better" than a stock frame from a reputable manufacturer with the same geometry.

So, essentially I'd be paying thousands extra for some slightly nicer welds, perhaps some nice anodizing and a very "cool" name on the downtube that really only a handful of cycling cognoscenti are going to appreciate anyway... Maybe that's worth it, maybe not.


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