# Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Aluminum w/Carbon Fork?



## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

Hi Everyone

New here & looking at my first road bike purchase in the next few weeks. My budget stinks (sub $500), so I'm focusing on trying to find a good used bike either through craigslist or at a bike store in the Portland area that sells used. I've checked everywhere I could find online and it seems that my only new options would be something entry-level from BikesDirect, a closeout from Performance Bike or (if I really stretched my wallet, er, credit card bill) a Specialized Allez Steel.

The Specialized is intriguing and got me thinking more about steel frames... As a new-to-road bike cyclist who has been riding a 34 lb mb hybrid for the past 23 years, I'm wondering what my best bet will be with regard to comfort as a rider. I'm NOT interested in speed over functionality, though a lighter bike with some nifty gear ratios would be nice in the hills here in the Willamette Valley. I always thought lighter is better, but now I'm hearing that steel is more comfortable (or at least moreso than the lower-end aluminum bikes).

Any thoughts? Older steel frame vs. cheaper new aluminum? Are the new steel frame bikes worth the increased cost over a used steel frame from the 80s/early 90s? Are BD bikes really as sketchy as they seem to be (at least based on the reviews I've read here--they seem to be slightly more positive the more recent they are, which is encouraging)? Would a closeout Fuji Newest 3.0 from Performance be a better buy than a used steel? What about the Mercier (BD) Galaxy Steel? Nashbar? What IS that thing? Can you get the Specialized Allez Steel with a compact crank so I might have a shot at making it up the hills around here?

Sorry for all the questions. I guess I just need some pointers in the right direction. I wish I had more to spend, but I don't even have the $500, so that's already pushing it. This is more about getting something now so I can get out on the road with a co-worker who rides regularly and is willing to help whip me into shape.

Thanks for your input. I'm flying blind here, so any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

In this price range and for a first ride, I don't think I'd fret too much over frame materials, but of all the options you've mentioned, IMO the best one (by far) is the Specialized Allez steel. This, of course, assumes the geometry would work well for you because fit trumps all else in the bike world.

JMO's, but all else being equal, steel (new or old) will provide a better ride than alu. But beyond ride qualities, what you'll get going with a new Allez (and working with your LBS) is sizing/ fit assistance, tune ups, warranty and a number of post purchase services (tweaks to initial fit, drivetrain adjustments, warranty assistance).

While the BD (or similar) bikes look attractive at first glance, there are a number of pitfalls and hidden costs. First off, you'll get little or no sizing assitance, no fit assistance once the bike arrives, and either you, a friend or your LBS will need to do final assembly on the bike, tune/ adjust it - all having the potential for adding cost. Also, if you guess wrong on sizing, you ship the bike back at your expense (or worse, keep an ill fitting bike) and the same goes for warranty assistance. You can't call, so everything that take 1/2 hour to resolve at a bike shop takes days dealing with online retailers. Quality in this price range isn't the best, so if you want to stick to your sub $500 price range, I suggest used over BD. At least you get to test ride the bike and go with what feels best on size. If you decide on going used, your local CL might be a good place to start.

You mentioned gearing on the Allez. I don't know about any changes they may make for 2011, but the current bike uses a standard crank (52/39) and 12-25 cassette. There are 8 spd cassettes that you can swap to (11-28, 11-32), the latter requiring a long cage RD, so you could discuss this with your LBS. They may be amicable to swapping cassettes out, and this option is cheaper than replacing the crankset.


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## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks for the great response, PJ352! You mentioned 'fit' on the Allez Steel... does that bike compare favorably to something like a Trek 1.2 -- I rode one of those the other day (56cm) and while the road felt strange to me, the bike itself was very comfortable. Unfortunately, the price was just too much for me to deal with at the moment.

I'll go check out the Allez Steel and ask about the cassette swap possibilities. I know I'll need help on the hills around here and that 39-25 pairing won't do the trick until I'm in better shape. Is it possible to swap out the original crank for a compact double down the road? Or is that too expensive a modification for something like that Allez Steel.

Here are a couple of other options I scoped out this morning online while looking up info on the Allez Steel:

Raleigh Sport -- $600-ish, but seems to be all aluminum? Good or bad for a road newbie?
Fuji Newest 3.0 -- $449 on Performance Bike's website, but I don't know if they'd have my size. There's a store in Portland, so I may have to make the trip up to the city and check it out. Would that bike be a good option?

Here's a used model that's currently listed @ $375 at a shop in Portland, so I could go used AND have the support of the local bike shop. I don't know anything about this bike, however, and can't find specific info on it online since I don't know the year or exact model:

https://sellwoodcycle.com/bicycles/full/54885.jpg

I just missed out on an '87 Trek Elance there that looked great. These things go fast!

Again, comfort, 'granny gears' and durability are going to be more important than speed or low weight. As long as I can get into the sub-25 lb world and find something that will last me a couple of years--or at least until the road bug bites (or not) and I can justify (or not) saving $1000 or more for a better bike down the road--I'll be happy.

Thanks again.


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## kritiman (Jul 31, 2006)

I've got to say, that's a pretty Cannondale.
Post it in the Retro forum, see if you get some hits.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JazzComp said:


> Thanks for the great response, PJ352! You mentioned 'fit' on the Allez Steel... does that bike compare favorably to something like a Trek 1.2 -- I rode one of those the other day (56cm) and while the road felt strange to me, the bike itself was very comfortable. Unfortunately, the price was just too much for me to deal with at the moment.
> 
> I'll go check out the Allez Steel and ask about the cassette swap possibilities. I know I'll need help on the hills around here and that 39-25 pairing won't do the trick until I'm in better shape. Is it possible to swap out the original crank for a compact double down the road? Or is that too expensive a modification for something like that Allez Steel.
> 
> ...


I mentioned fit in regards to the Allez because I was qualifying my recommendation with _as long as it fits_. The only way to know the answer is for you to visit the LBS, get sized/ fitted and test ride it. Geometry (and sizing) of bikes nowadays is all over the map, so comparing one with another 'on paper' is futile. I hope that (sorta) answers your question.

It is possible to swap out the crankset on the Allez for a compact. Depending on the cassette you wanted to run, there may or may not be other changes required. 

Another member may know older C'dales better than I. I'm not familiar with that model so I can't comment, but I agree with you that buying used from a LBS offer some advantages - mainly sizing and fitting assistance, but you could also discuss post purchase services like tune ups/ adjustments.

As long as you're thinking of buying the Raleigh from a LBS (primarily for fit assistance), I think it's another fine choice as a first bike. The same holds true of the Newest. As long as you visit the Performance shop, get sizing/ fitting assistance and test ride the bike. One advantage of the Fui is the CF fork, which may be somewhat lighter that the Raleigh's. FWIW, both have triple cranksets.


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## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

*thanks for the tip...*

I just posted a pic in the retro forum. Hope someone over there has a better idea about this particular model... you're right, it's a nice looking bike!


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## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

thanks... i just didn't know if older steel frames have a different riding position (better/worse for a creaky newbie like me) than the newer al bikes (like the trek i mentioned).

i hope to get up to portland tomorrow to check out some of these bikes, visit the performance shop and try the fuji, and ride an allez steel somewhere along the way.

should be fun!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JazzComp said:


> thanks... *i just didn't know if older steel frames have a different riding position* (better/worse for a creaky newbie like me) than the newer al bikes (like the trek i mentioned).
> 
> i hope to get up to portland tomorrow to check out some of these bikes, visit the performance shop and try the fuji, and ride an allez steel somewhere along the way.
> 
> should be fun!


FWIW, my '84 Bianchi Limited had what's called traditional geometry (horizontal top tube) and a 52cm frame measured 52cm seat tube and 52cm top tube. Now, with compact geometry (sloping top tubes) a 52cm frame_ might _have a seat tube length of 49cm+/- and effective top tube (effective because you measure horizontally) of 53.5cm's+/-. 

For 'the creaky', I'd say a relatively taller heat tube length (and/ or flipped up stem) has some advantage, because they'll put the rider in a slight less aggressive, more upright riding position. The Newest would do that, but the Raleigh (among others) may as well. The Allez is more along the lines of a racing bike, so you'll have to test ride some to decide your preference.


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## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the advice...

I'm heading up to the bike store this afternoon and will test ride a few different bikes to get a feel for what I'm after. I did a little research on that used Cannondale frame and found out it's a 2.8 series--great for going fast, not so great for longer rides or comfort, so that one is out. The plan today is to check out the Raleigh Sport, Specialized Allez Steel and ride a al/carbon fork for comparison purposes. We'll see how it goes.

Side question here: I know the pitfalls of ordering online, but it looks to me as if the frame for the BD Mercier Galaxy Steel is almost identical to the Specialized Allez Steel. It says "Reynolds 520" for the Galaxy--is that the same frame as the Specialized? Or does the Reynolds 520 refer to the metal itself and not the frame?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JazzComp said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice...
> 
> I'm heading up to the bike store this afternoon and will test ride a few different bikes to get a feel for what I'm after. I did a little research on that used Cannondale frame and found out it's a 2.8 series--great for going fast, not so great for longer rides or comfort, so that one is out. The plan today is to check out the Raleigh Sport, Specialized Allez Steel and ride a al/carbon fork for comparison purposes. We'll see how it goes.
> 
> Side question here: I know the pitfalls of ordering online, but it looks to me as if the frame for the BD Mercier Galaxy Steel is almost identical to the Specialized Allez Steel. * It says "Reynolds 520" for the Galaxy--is that the same frame as the Specialized? Or does the Reynolds 520 refer to the metal itself and not the frame?*


Reynolds 520 is the proprietary designation for a range of butted frame tubes made by Reynolds using a chromium molybdenum steel alloy similar to the AISI 4130 standard. Specialized doesn't specify their tubing, but it's likely 4130 standard.

When comparing a BD bike to a name brand, you have to look beyond the bike itself, because the services offered at the LBS add value. You'll get no assistance of any kind from an online retailer, and the onus is on you to pick the right size. No test rides, and warranty assitance is going to entail shipping the bike back at your expense and waiting days (at minimum) for an email response. Then there's the hidden expenses, so weigh what that $200 _really_ represents before going the online route.

Beyond the pitfalls mentioned, I don't think the bikes themselves are that similar. The workmanship on the Spec frame will be superior to the BD bike (as will the warranty service), and the Shimano crankset is far superior to the Truvativ on the Galaxy.


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## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

I figured as much about the Galaxy, but thought it was at least worth asking.

Checked out some options today, but couldn't find an Allez Steel to ride here in my town. I'll have to head up to Portland to check that one out. The best I could find anywhere near my budget were the following:

Scott Speedster S50 - $750
Raleigh Grand Sport - $725
Raleigh Sport - $625
Giant Defy 3 - $799

I need to carve out a couple of hours this weekend to go test ride all four... have a sinking feeling the Raleigh Sport will NOT look as appealing after riding the others, so I'll start with that one.

Funny how my $500 limit is already toast. I can't go above that without using credit, so I may end up getting nothing until next summer, but this has at least been educational if nothing else. If I had thought to do this a few years ago, it seems as if all these entry level bikes were right around $500 in 2006 or 2007 and I would have been in business. What happened with prices to cause the bottom end to go up so much in such a short period of time? Crazy!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JazzComp said:


> I figured as much about the Galaxy, but thought it was at least worth asking.
> 
> Checked out some options today, but couldn't find an Allez Steel to ride here in my town. I'll have to head up to Portland to check that one out. The best I could find anywhere near my budget were the following:
> 
> ...


JMO, but I would suggest staying close to your original budget for a first bike. It's a slippery slope when you start researching and comparing specs, but truth be told a good fit is going to go a long way in keeping you on the bike and riding (and that is the goal, correct?). 

The Raleigh Sport is spec'd pretty well for its price range, and buying new you'll get some LBS services and a warranty. I still suggest riding some others, just to get exposure to different geometry and what you might prefer, but if the goal is to get out and ride, then take the steps to do just that!! :thumbsup: 

Oh, and if you wait until next year, the prices are apt to keep rising....


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## lechwe (Jul 30, 2007)

Something else to consider. It is getting late in the season. If you can wait until December or January you may be able to get a 2010 bike from a shop at a significant discount affording you to move up slightly or just get a much better deal on what you are looking at. I bought a $2500 bike for $1500 by waiting until after the first of the year.

I also went from a smooth steel bike to an aluminum frame with carbon forks, seat stay, post and bars. It is a little rougher ride but it is also much smoother and more fun than my older steel bike.

Good luck


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## SlowJoeCrow (Sep 3, 2009)

If you are in the market for a moderately priced steel bike, take a look at the lower end Jamis and Bianchi bikes. While their new price is around $1000 you should be able to hit $500ish for used since that's what I sold my Jamis Satellite for this spring.


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## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

*used bianchi campione or new marin portofino?*

...so now i'm enjoying the wild & wacky world of bike hunting on ebay and have found a couple of options that look intriguing. One is a used Bianchi Campione and the other is a new (2009) Marin Portofino. Both are the same price and fall just barely above my $500 range w/shipping costs factored in. 

The Marin claims to be built around something called 'natural fit' that promotes a less aggressive riding position (might be nice for my back?) and would have the same warranty as new, though no lbs service since it would be purchased from an outlet center rather than the bike store. Components seem okay for an entry-level bike.

The Bianchi just plain looks cool. And I like the idea of having a steel frame over an aluminum w/carbon fork. Comes with a CatEye computer, too. No warranty on the bike, sold by private party. Campagnolo Mirage components and Mavic tires. I don't know if that's better or worse than the entry-level Marin (I'm guessing better).

Any thoughts? I'm leaning towards the Bianchi and gather that @ $500+ it's at least a reasonable deal if not a good one. The Marin new is $750, so I'd be saving quite a bit with last year's model @$549 incl shipping, but the bike just doesn't seem as appealing as the Bianchi. I'm also thinking that the Bianchi frame would be something that would last much longer than the Marin and that I could upgrade components down the road if I needed to step up to the next level (rather than buying an entirely new bike).

Help!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JazzComp said:


> ...so now i'm enjoying the wild & wacky world of bike hunting on ebay and have found a couple of options that look intriguing. One is a used Bianchi Campione and the other is a new (2009) Marin Portofino. Both are the same price and fall just barely above my $500 range w/shipping costs factored in.
> 
> The Marin claims to be built around something called 'natural fit' that promotes a less aggressive riding position (might be nice for my back?) and would have the same warranty as new, though no lbs service since it would be purchased from an outlet center rather than the bike store. Components seem okay for an entry-level bike.
> 
> ...


This being your first bike I advise against buying online (yes, ebay is buying online). AFAIK you don't know your sizing requirements, so I don't know how you'd determine that a bike seen only online that you can't ride will fit. 

One note regarding the Marin. Natural fit is Marin's term for what other manufacturers call WSD (women's specific design). Generally speaking, the bikes geometry uses shorter effective top tubes (which result in shorter reach), but again, I don't think you're in a position to know your reach requirements yet.

IMO either of these options pose several risks. You have to decide if they're worth taking.


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## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> This being your first bike I advise against buying online (yes, ebay is buying online). AFAIK you don't know your sizing requirements, so I don't know how you'd determine that a bike seen only online that you can't ride will fit.
> 
> One note regarding the Marin. Natural fit is Marin's term for what other manufacturers call WSD (women's specific design). Generally speaking, the bikes geometry uses shorter effective top tubes (which result in shorter reach), but again, I don't think you're in a position to know your reach requirements yet.
> 
> IMO either of these options pose several risks. You have to decide if they're worth taking.


Thanks... I wish I had enough $$ to head into a bike shop and not have the salespeople snicker at my cycling naivete, but that's where we are at the moment. The cheapest thing I've seen with regard to something actually availble in a store is the Raleigh Sport for $625. Unfortunately, when I know it's possible to get twice the bike used for far less $$, I just can't bring myself to break the bank for a new bike that doesn't even appeal to me. It doesn't help that the salesblokes are often incredulous that I don't WANT to spend more than my $500 limit and keep talking up more and more expensive models as if all I need to do is 'understand' that I have to spend more money in order to actually have it magically appear in my bank account. I went into one shop last week, explained my $500 limit, and within 5 minutes was being shown a $1500 bike that would be 'perfect' for me. Crazy.

This whole process--while fascinating--has been fairly discouraging at each new turn, though I am grateful for the candid, knowledgeable feedback from good folks such as yourself here on this forum. I've been pouring over the regional craiglist for over a month and haven't found anything that will work for me that isn't overpriced or gone as soon as I call. So... without a reasonable low-end road bike option in the local bike shops, I'm pretty much left to online shopping. 

I know it's risky to buy without riding first, but it may be the only way I'll get out on the road. My hope is that if I can at least clear the standover height, I can try to get the bike fit as closely as possible and make adjustments as necessary once I have it in my possesion. Probably won't work perfectly, but I don't know how else I'm going to make this happen at this point.

Well, then... that was one big whine-fest, wasn't it? I think it's time for a nice, cold beer and a little sunshine in the backyard! The bike will happen eventually. 

Cheers!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JazzComp said:


> Thanks... I wish I had enough $$ to head into a bike shop and not have the salespeople snicker at my cycling naivete, but that's where we are at the moment. The cheapest thing I've seen with regard to something actually availble in a store is the Raleigh Sport for $625. Unfortunately, when I know it's possible to get twice the bike used for far less $$, I just can't bring myself to break the bank for a new bike that doesn't even appeal to me. It doesn't help that the salesblokes are often incredulous that I don't WANT to spend more than my $500 limit and keep talking up more and more expensive models as if all I need to do is 'understand' that I have to spend more money in order to actually have it magically appear in my bank account. I went into one shop last week, explained my $500 limit, and within 5 minutes was being shown a $1500 bike that would be 'perfect' for me. Crazy.
> 
> This whole process--while fascinating--has been fairly discouraging at each new turn, though I am grateful for the candid, knowledgeable feedback from good folks such as yourself here on this forum. I've been pouring over the regional craiglist for over a month and haven't found anything that will work for me that isn't overpriced or gone as soon as I call. So... without a reasonable low-end road bike option in the local bike shops, I'm pretty much left to online shopping.
> 
> ...


I understand and empathize with much of what you say. Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to push your $500 limit up. In fact, if you check back a couple of posts, I was offering that for a first bike you should stick (at least close) to your price range. I realize the low end Raleigh is above that, but sometimes getting the most for your money isn't just what's seen (as in components), but also value added LBS services. Noobs need those services, sometimes more than they know. 

But... it's your money and your decision, so if you truly feel that the only way you'll be on the road anytime soon is to go the ebay (or similar) route, then do it. Just try your best to get sizing right, even if you simply think back on the bikes you may have ridden and their frame sizes. Admittedly, this is far from ideal, but it should get you in the ballpark on fit, and from what you've offered that seems like a gamble you're willing to take. 

Another option is to visit a reputable LBS, tell them the real deal (you're going to buy a bike online for about $500) and ask for a standard fitting. It'll probably cost around $50, but with the info from that fitting you can compare you test bikes geo (and fit requirements) to the bikes of interest online. The closer the numbers, the better the final fit would be. You could do essentially the same and still buy from ebay, but at least going this route you'd have an idea of what geometry might work for you - and we could assist you with any questions along the way. Just go into it with eyes wide open and be aware that buying online does have potential pitfalls and the potential for several hidden charges/ costs along the way.


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## JazzComp (Aug 10, 2010)

Heya PJ352

You and the others on this forum have been great... it's visits to the actual bike stores and trying to find something reasonable through craigslist that's been discouraging. I'll keep plugging away. 

That's an entertaining bit about the 'natural fit' designation on the Marin. I didn't know that.

Will try the best of our local stores this weekend and see if I can get a general fitting. Also heading up to Portland to check out a few more stores next week. There's bound to be something, somewhere, somehow, someway that will do the trick for under $500.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JazzComp said:


> Heya PJ352
> 
> You and the others on this forum have been great... it's visits to the actual bike stores and trying to find something reasonable through craigslist that's been discouraging. I'll keep plugging away.
> 
> ...


Yes, I picked up on your frustration in your previous post. There are LBS's in my area that I don't patronize for some of the reasons you mentioned also (and sometimes just their 'tude gets old), so it's not just noobs that are exposed to it.

Ideally, if you can find an LBS that carries used bikes (and they have a decent inventory in your price range) that would be a good option for you. You'd stay within budget_ and _get some sizing/ fitting assistance, because the LBS has a vested interest in getting a repeat customer.

Good luck and pls keep us updated.


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## Staylucky (May 2, 2013)

I too became frustrated when dealing with snobby LBS employees, so what I did was find a bike I really liked in the LBS, then started building that same bike myself with the same components I bought online through various sites. Put it all together in my garage and got a $1500 bike for about $700 total. 

This might not be the route you want to go but its more cost effective and you can really stick it to those snobs.


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## Staylucky (May 2, 2013)

Also, I will say if you are more focused on comfort, I'd go for a steelie over alloy or aluminum. Steel is typically more comfortable on longer rides, more forgiving. Definitely stay away from older Cannondales. I had a mid 90's Aluminum racer. It was so stiff, after a couple hours on the bike all the shock from bumps on the road was murder on the body. I loved it but chose to give it up for something a little more forgiving.

An old steel Miele, Bianchi road frame is classy as hell.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Staylucky said:


> I too became frustrated when dealing with snobby LBS employees, so what I did was find a bike I really liked in the LBS, then started building that same bike myself with the same components I bought online through various sites. Put it all together in my garage and got a $1500 bike for about $700 total.
> 
> This might not be the route you want to go but its more cost effective and you can really stick it to those snobs.


I suspect the devil's in the details on this one, because it's almost never cheaper to piece the same bike together versus buying it new/ complete.

I'd be curious to see a link to the complete bike and your itemized frame/ fork/ parts list with price paid for each.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

Staylucky said:


> I too became frustrated when dealing with snobby LBS employees, so what I did was find a bike I really liked in the LBS, then started building that same bike myself with the same components I bought online through various sites. Put it all together in my garage and got a $1500 bike for about $700 total.


Welcome newbie! A lot of us here can use your advice on building a new bike for half price. How about writing about it, with all the details of course?

thanks!


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## Staylucky (May 2, 2013)

Randy99CL said:


> Welcome newbie! A lot of us here can use your advice on building a new bike for half price. How about writing about it, with all the details of course?
> 
> thanks!


of course. 2 pictures, how it started and how it ended (sort of, I've upgraded pedals and added a computer and better brake pads since).

View attachment 280144
View attachment 280145


Frame: Nashbar Aluminum Road Bike Frame - $50 (Usually $200 but it was an end of year deal) Nasbar.com: The Best Search Links on the Net
Nashbar Carbon Fork with Alloy $110 Bikes, Cycling Clothing, Bike Parts & Cycling Gear: Bike Discounts & Deals from Nashbar
Mavic CXP 22 Wheels $120 + eBay find
Shimano 105 Hollowtech Cranks - $50 (LBS, scratch and dent sale. Small scratch on one of the crank arms)
Shimano 105 rear derailleur - $25 - eBay
Shimano 105 10spd Cassette $40 eBay
Shimano Ultegra front derailleur $10 eBay (hard to believe this one)
Shimano 105 Brakes - $50 LBS (lightly used)
Shimano 105 Flight Deck Brifters - $120 eBay
Ultegra Chain - $35 on eBay
Cane Creek Headset $40 New at LBS
Stem Bontrager Race Lite - $15 Lightly used off Craigslist
Seat - Selle Royal - $40 eBay
Seat post, came off previous road bike, no idea on worth
FSA Energy Handlebars $25 shipping eBay
Easton Bar Tape - $18 LBS
Shimano cables and housing - Roughly $20

$738 for the parts. Maybe another $80 - 100 in missing shipping costs.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Staylucky said:


> Frame: *Nashbar* Aluminum Road Bike *Frame* - $50 (Usually $200 but it was an end of year deal)
> *Nashbar *Carbon *Fork *with Alloy $110
> *$738 for the parts. Maybe another $80 - 100* in missing shipping costs.


That's a nice bike and a pretty solid build for the price, but it's not *the same bike* sold at LBS's.

For your higher end estimate (~$840) there are a number of good offerings at LBS's, routinely discounted at 10%. 

One example being the Specialized Allez Sport. With it, a buyer gets sizing/ fit assistance, final assembly, tuning, a lifetime warranty and post-purchase services (tweaks to fit, warranty assistance, discounts on accessories). 

Arguably, the better _overall_ deal.


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## Staylucky (May 2, 2013)

PJ352 said:


> That's a nice bike and a pretty solid build for the price, but it's not *the same bike* sold at LBS's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I say this in the most friendly way. I have nothing to prove to you, you asked me for specs and pics, there they are. A solid road bike that has never let me down and keeps up with my group easily. In fact some of them riding the Cervelo's and the Masi's are gob smacked they spent $4000 when they could have gotten something like mine for a fraction the cost. I guess if I got the Norco or Rocky Mountain frame instead of unbranded Nashbar it would be carbon copy. Let's face it, its all made in Taiwan and the quality standards are the same, and the geometry is pretty darn close across the board. No one is doing anything too exciting in the mid range. 

I don't understand how its not the same. For that kind of money where I live (Toronto, Canada) you'd be lucky to get entry level with a Sora groupset for under $1000. Forget it, I'm not wasting money on parts that break down and need to be tweaked and built back up every weekend.

I've had a few name brand bikes in my time Cannondale, Norco, Miele (I still have the Miele, a real gem from the mid 80's). They haven't made me any faster or better than this Nashbar frame has, in fact looking back, I feel stupid spending money on these names.

Warranty and tuning? Everything I have has a manufacturers warranty. Tuning is something done easily in my garage with a standard set of tools. Why would anyone pay $$ for something that's done in a few minutes with hardware store tools?

Fit? I've been riding for a decade, I know what works for me and what doesn't. I'm sure there's a fit guru out there that might be better but what I've seen offered at the LBS is a few adjustments here and there with the seat, the pedals & shoes and the stem height. I can do that myself.

If you're new, maybe the assurance of your LBS. But I think those that are mechanically inclined and like to tinker should look into the built in the garage option. 

Further to my point, here is what my LBS is selling for $2000

All-City Cycles Space Horse

I think I'm coming out ahead here.


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## Staylucky (May 2, 2013)

I should say thank you for the compliment, it is my prize possession at the moment.

the last post seemed trolly. I apoligize for the tone. I just get a little ticked at some of the pricing on bikes here in Toronto LBS's. I feel new ridiers get taken advantage of and anyone that doesn't have $2000+ to drop gets the snob treatment.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

Staylucky said:


> of course. 2 pictures, how it started and how it ended (sort of, I've upgraded pedals and added a computer and better brake pads since).
> 
> View attachment 280144
> View attachment 280145
> ...



Damn____! That looks pretty freaking good for just a trifle 700 bucks!

....I'm very impressed with both your fishing and build skills!

At first, I thought you were full of it!


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

Randy99CL said:


> Welcome newbie! A lot of us here can use your advice on building a new bike for half price. How about writing about it, with all the details of course?
> 
> thanks!


I built a mtn bike from parts sourced on the net, but it was my 2nd mtn bike and I had been riding about 4 years by then. So I knew what I wanted and how to put it together. I have been happy with the result for many years. I would not recommend this process for a newbie as there are alot of mistakes that can be made. Better to buy a complete bike.

BTW... my deal was even better. 

Carbon fiber trek with Ultegra group used for $500. Plus it was turn key. Only change were to the stem to dial in fit and some pedals. 


Everything is a trade off.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Staylucky said:


> I should say thank you for the compliment, it is my prize possession at the moment.
> 
> *the last post seemed trolly. I apoligize for the tone.* I just get a little ticked at some of the pricing on bikes here in Toronto LBS's. I feel new ridiers get taken advantage of and anyone that doesn't have $2000+ to drop gets the snob treatment.


... and I'll graciously accept, but we'll have to agree to disagree that you built the same bike sold at LBS's. There's more to compare than country of origin, frame materials or Ultegra versus Sora. 

This being a beginners corner (and the OP being a beginner), he probably doesn't know geo well enough to size himself, then fit himself, nor be capable enough to build a bike. And no, not everyone can do either, just because there are resources on the web. Both sizing/ fit assistance and final assembly show the worth (and value) of buying a complete bike from an LBS - either new or used.

Next, is warranty and warranty support. Buying from an LBS, in the event of a claim, you basically hand off the problem to them. They (in turn) hand it off to their rep and he works with the company rep to formulate a remedy. The company would handle shipping charges, but the LBS would handle the build, with the buyer incurring a charge. 

Buying online, you'll likely be required to (at minimum) send pics, email (or phone) back and forth, and quite possibly send the defective part back (at your cost). The product may no longer be available, so another frame/ fork of equal quality may be offered.

In the event of a frame failure, the buyer would be required to tear down/ rebuild the frame, so in the (likely) event they can't, they'd incur a charge. Honestly, considering the ($50) cost, I'd bet most owners would discard the frame and buy another (so basically, a disposable frame). Considering shipping charges, in the long run it would probably cost less - and retailers count on that. 

Re: fast bikes/ slow bikes and geo, this (IMO) is all irrelevant. No one suggested that an expensive bike is faster than an inexpensive one. Similar applies to geo. Companies don't offer different geo based on price. Geo differences between companies reflect philosophies, and/ or the bikes intended uses - not final cost.

I find your use of a 105/ Ultegra drivetrain ironic. Here you essentially say that quality is the same for frames/ forks (presumably because of country of origin and materials), but then opt for Shimano over Microshift (one example). So, _sometimes_ quality matters? Or does your opting for 105/ Ultegra when possible show that _price_ is really the motivating force and (price being equal) you DO opt for a name brand of higher quality?

Look, I'm happy that you're happy with your bike. I really am. But being so defensive about it tells me that you do realize that quality varies, and that you chose a less expensive frame/ fork (over higher quality) and put an emphasis (and the bulk of your funds) on the drivetrain. 

It's all about choices and with them, their compromises. But one things for certain. We seldom "get it all" by paying less.


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## Staylucky (May 2, 2013)

PJ352 said:


> ... and I'll graciously accept, but we'll have to agree to disagree that you built the same bike sold at LBS's. There's more to compare than country of origin, frame materials or Ultegra versus Sora.
> 
> This being a beginners corner (and the OP being a beginner), he probably doesn't know geo well enough to size himself, then fit himself, nor be capable enough to build a bike. And no, not everyone can do either, just because there are resources on the web. Both sizing/ fit assistance and final assembly show the worth (and value) of buying a complete bike from an LBS - either new or used.
> 
> ...


I think you nailed it there. I did focus more on the drive train over the frame but I just got lucky on timing with the nashbar end of year sale. Typically the frame goes for around $300 and the fork for close to $200. I thought, "$50, if it sucks as a good road/race frame, at least I can make a commuter out of it." But I've been pleasantly surprised how GOOD it actually is.

I don't have any experience with Microshift but I had ridden bikes with 105 and really liked the group, in this case to me, quality and name mattered. The Ultegra front derailleur was chosen because, for $10 I couldn't say no and it worked with the rest of the 105 group. 

Maybe its not the best route for newbies but I believe with a lot of research and learning (Toronto has a lot of workshops for this kind of stuff, in fact I'm taking a wheel building workshop in a couple weeks so I can build my own set, again in the hopes to save big time on cost) someone who's never wrenched anything can do the same as me.


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## Staylucky (May 2, 2013)

Actually, maybe my best advice for the OP is check out Nashbar Bikes, Cycling Clothing, Bike Parts & Cycling Gear: Bike Discounts & Deals from Nashbar because they have GREAT bikes for very good prices.


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## regnaD kciN (Mar 2, 2013)

I wonder what JazzComp wound up buying, all those years ago?


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