# The 65.1 Fakes Have Arrived!



## Cinelli 82220

CARBON ROAD BIKE FRAMESET NEW 52 - 54 CM NEW!!!! NO RESERVE | eBay


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## keong72

Hear about new coz now 65.1 is move to OEM at china so will a lot fake will out with very high quality fake,,,


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## jheeno

keong72 said:


> Hear about new coz now 65.1 is move to OEM at china so will a lot fake will out with very high quality fake,,,


am I the only one that isn't understanding what you are saying ?


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## bikerjulio

At least the seller was open about it. Unlike others we have seen.

Where are the genuine ones made now?


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## CliveDS

That's just wrong. 

You pay more for a cheap China fake because it has Pinarello logo's then you show up on a ride posing that you have a Pinarello when it's clear to everyone that you "want to" have a Pinarello but could not swing it.

Better maybe to spend $500 on a "Authentic" China open mold no name bike and know what you have and put the extra $300 toward health insurance premium.


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## Cinelli 82220

keong72 said:


> Hear about new coz now 65.1 is move to OEM at china so will a lot fake will out with very high quality fake,,,


This for sure! Or maybe not. Either way I totally agree or disagree.


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## martinrm

Honestly, if I got in a crash and I destroyed my bike I would seriously consider getting a replica Pinarello and swap over all my components. I loves pinarellos . . That's a fact, but I don't think I want to shell out 7k for a new bike. $600 is a lot more acceptable, however I would feel bad when I ride as I would be degrading the Pinarello name. Fake or not I give credit to the Chinese, they have done an admirable job of making a beautiful bike.

Source: Wholesale Accept black/white/red Pinarello Dogma 60.1 aero D2 3k Carbon Road bike frameseatpost, Free shipping, $647.9-668.8/Piece | DHgate


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## martinrm

Wholesale 2013 Pinarello Dogma2 carbon road bicycle frame , framefork seatpostclampheadset, 54, Free shipping, $517.5-564.3/Piece | DHgate

This one has the correct forks, win!


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## Cinelli 82220

Martin that is the best one I've seen yet. I'm tempted to buy one to see it up close!

I wonder if they have non-offset seat posts in the Dogma shape?


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## ml29

It's getting harder to easily spot the fakes now that they have the aero posts and forks and internal cables. 

Does this effect the resale price as people on the second hand market won't be able to trust that our bikes are legit?


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## martinrm

ml29 said:


> It's getting harder to easily spot the fakes now that they have the aero posts and forks and internal cables.
> 
> Does this effect the resale price as people on the second hand market won't be able to trust that our bikes are legit?


You can't fake the serial number on the bottom of your bike so no. As long as it's registered and you can prove it you're good.


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## PaxRomana

keong72 said:


> Hear about new coz now 65.1 is move to OEM at china so will a lot fake will out with very high quality fake,,,


I think what he is saying is that the Dogma 65.1 is now made in China as well, meaning closer access for counterfeits, so the new fakes will be of much higher quality and look even more like the originals.


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## ml29

Is there a way people can check the serial number with Pinarello if buying secondhand?


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## martinrm

ml29 said:


> Is there a way people can check the serial number with Pinarello if buying secondhand?


I would call pinarello or contact them at [email protected] to verify the serial number. There are also some give aways in the serial number i.e the last 2 digets is always the frame size. . . if those do not match than thats a knockoff.


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## vette

Im gonna get me one.


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## apn

martinrm said:


> There are also some give aways in the serial number i.e the last 2 digets is always the frame size. . . if those do not match than thats a knockoff.


Is this limited to Dogma models?

Curious, since it doesn't appear to be the case for my 2012 Quattro, from my reg email;

FRAME DATA 
Retail purchase date: 2012-04-06
Sales receipt number: <removed>
Model: FPQUATTRO
year: 2012
Color: W/B/R 593
Size: 56
Wheels: Fulcrum Racing 5
Group: Ultegra
Frame serial number: 2AZ********98 <edited>

NOTES ON THE REGISTRATION:

Sincerely,
Cicli Pinarello S.p.A.


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## martinrm

apn said:


> Is this limited to Dogma models?
> 
> Curious, since it doesn't appear to be the case for my 2012 Quattro, from my reg email;
> 
> FRAME DATA
> Retail purchase date: 2012-04-06
> Sales receipt number: <removed>
> Model: FPQUATTRO
> year: 2012
> Color: W/B/R 593
> Size: 56
> Wheels: Fulcrum Racing 5
> Group: Ultegra
> Frame serial number: 2AZ********98 <edited>
> 
> NOTES ON THE REGISTRATION:
> 
> Sincerely,
> Cicli Pinarello S.p.A.


Did you check under the bottom bracket? Because thats where its on mine and i have a paris. It might possibly be in another location? Im positive that all Pinarellos sold by a dealer/manufacturer do indeed have serial number. But, considering that you have a registration email i dont think there is a problem as long as you have proof of where you bought it from.


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## apn

martinrm said:


> Did you check under the bottom bracket? Because thats where its on mine and i have a paris. It might possibly be in another location? Im positive that all Pinarellos sold by a dealer/manufacturer do indeed have serial number. But, considering that you have a registration email i dont think there is a problem as long as you have proof of where you bought it from.


I sure did. The sticker under the BB matches what came back in the Gita and Pinarello emails (totally legit), but I'm asking if the the frame size is always the last two digits of the serial #, because that's not the case for my Quattro, where 56 != 98 

Perhaps they only do this for Dogma frames?


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## martinrm

apn said:


> I sure did. The sticker under the BB matches what came back in the Gita and Pinarello emails (totally legit), but I'm asking if the the frame size is always the last two digits of the serial #, because that's not the case for my Quattro, where 56 != 98
> 
> Perhaps they only do this for Dogma frames?


Ah gotcha, it might be different then, i just know that on my paris and one of my teammates FP7 the last 2 digits are the frame size. Perhaps 56 is in the serial number in a different location?


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## Juzzy004

martinrm said:


> I would call pinarello or contact them at [email protected] to verify the serial number. There are also some give aways in the serial number i.e the last 2 digets is always the frame size. . . if those do not match than thats a knockoff.


Martin, you're partly correct about the frame size being part of the serial number. It's not the last 2 digits though. Mine shows 1AA515.... The 515 indicates that the frame is a 51.5cm.


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## iclypso

^ Guaranteed most popular S/N on eBay next month


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## Juzzy004

iclypso said:


> ^ Guaranteed most popular S/N on eBay next month


Haha! That's NOT my current Dogma 2 Serial #. Would never advertise that. Anyone looking to buy a Pinarello online should always email for registration confirmation. Those attempting to use other peoples stickers will always get caught out by those who are careful.


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## dazman6

That serial # is on ebay but not that exact photo, is that your old bike or someone else's.
Just wondering?


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## apn

martinrm said:


> Ah gotcha, it might be different then, i just know that on my paris and one of my teammates FP7 the last 2 digits are the frame size. Perhaps 56 is in the serial number in a different location?


Ah yes, since Juzzy004 explained his 51.5, I checked and my serial # starts with 2AZ56..., so evidently the frame size is coded after the 2AZ prefix. 

I don't know the model year of your friends Paris, but IIRC, the FP7 was discontinued a couple of years ago (my friend has a 2009). Based on Juzzy's Dogma2 and my new Quattro, perhaps they changed the encoding scheme for 2012...

Thanks for clearing that up!


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## Cinelli 82220

PaxRomana said:


> I think what he is saying is that the Dogma 65.1 is now made in China as well, meaning closer access for counterfeits, so the new fakes will be of much higher quality and look even more like the originals.


All they need to make an exact copy is the file for the CNC mill that cuts the molds....it's probably on the Pirate Bay by now.


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## martinrm

Is it bad that i want to get a chinarello dogma2 frame and swap over my components from my legit paris just to say i have a dogma (lets be honest a reg person cannot tell the difference between a chinarello and a pinarello).


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## shermes

martinrm said:


> Is it bad that i want to get a chinarello dogma2 frame and swap over my components from my legit paris just to say i have a dogma (lets be honest a reg person cannot tell the difference between a chinarello and a pinarello).


Yes it is.


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## apn

PaxRomana said:


> I think what he is saying is that the Dogma 65.1 is now made in China as well, meaning closer access for counterfeits, so the new fakes will be of much higher quality and look even more like the originals.


The argument is sound IF the facts are correct, however, it's my understanding that;

- All 2012 models except Dogma were wholly made in TAIWAN (not China). My new Quattro has a "Made in Taiwan" sticker next to the serial #.

- All 2012 Dogma frames were built in Taiwan and finished in Italy.

Is it confirmed that frame production has shifted from Taiwan to China, and for all models?


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## MXL

CliveDS said:


> That's just wrong.
> 
> You pay more for a cheap China fake because it has Pinarello logo's then you show up on a ride posing that you have a Pinarello when it's clear to everyone that you "want to" have a Pinarello but could not swing it.


Yeah, especially if throw Tiagra or 105 on it.


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## ml29

martinrm said:


> Is it bad that i want to get a chinarello dogma2 frame and swap over my components from my legit paris just to say i have a dogma (lets be honest a reg person cannot tell the difference between a chinarello and a pinarello).


Not sure why you would want to do that. I suspect that your legit Paris would ride much nicer than a chinarello dogma, it certainly won't be worse.


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## Cinelli 82220

martinrm said:


> (lets be honest a reg person cannot tell the difference between a chinarello and a pinarello).


Exercise in futility.
Objective: impress people with a fake Dogma. 
Most enthusiasts could tell it's a fake, so they won't be impressed. 
Reg person can't tell the difference, but reg person wouldn't be impressed by Dogma anyway. 
Net result: enthusiasts unimpressed or think you're a goof for having a fake. Reg people unimpressed or more likely uninterested. 
No benefit.


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## martinrm

Did you know that these counterfeit frames are actually asymmetric. Check it out, look at the left and right side of the down tube, fork, top tube, and rear chain stay. Its actually amazing. 

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/2013-model-Completely-Asymmetrical-Pinarello-Dogma-65-1-Think2-yellow-black-Carbon-Bicycle-Frame-fork-seatpost/206707_635319214.html

I really wonder how one of these newer ones ride.


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## Robert1

A regular person doesn't know the difference between a paris and a dogma2, so why bother? Performance wise you won't know the difference.



martinrm said:


> Is it bad that i want to get a chinarello dogma2 frame and swap over my components from my legit paris just to say i have a dogma (lets be honest a reg person cannot tell the difference between a chinarello and a pinarello).


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## Qarbon

I just registered here after finding this thread on Google. I couldn't resist having some input on this topic, as I have a fairly unique experience in this area. For a start, I own genuine 60.1 and my wife has a genuine Prince. They're lovely frames, but the fact is, they're not worth anything like the price consumers are required to pay - it's almost comical, really. A Dogma frame in Australia $9,900AUD! I also used to ride downhill MTB and paid _overwhelmingly less_ for a fully-kitted downhill frame than for a genuine Pinarello, which is just a basic carbon wrap! My son is a composites engineer and bought an early 60.1 "Chinarello" two years ago out of curiousity. What we found was... nothing... That is to say, the frame was faultless and beautifully engineered; the only exception being some excess resin in the BB threads, which needed to be cleaned out.

Since then, I've run a "fake" Dogma2 (for a year, doing 550km a week) and my son (and three friends) have done the same. Not a single issue. The quality now is seriously on par with my real 60.1, which now hangs in the garage!

I've just ordered a new 65.1 and look forward to receiving it. Perhaps it's a little unethical, but so is charging 10k for a frame, which is made in China in exactly the same region as the "fakes", at a neighbouring factory (yes, that's correct). Pinarello lost me as a customer as soon as I became aware of their faux-Italian manufacturing! That's more unethical than anything.


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## BacDoc

Qarbon said:


> I just registered here after finding this thread on Google. I couldn't resist having some input on this topic, as I have a fairly unique experience in this area. For a start, I own genuine 60.1 and my wife has a genuine Prince. They're lovely frames, but the fact is, they're not worth anything like the price consumers are required to pay - it's almost comical, really. A Dogma frame in Australia $9,900AUD! I also used to ride downhill MTB and paid _overwhelmingly less_ for a fully-kitted downhill frame than for a genuine Pinarello, which is just a basic carbon wrap! My son is a composites engineer and bought an early 60.1 "Chinarello" two years ago out of curiousity. What we found was... nothing... That is to say, the frame was faultless and beautifully engineered; the only exception being some excess resin in the BB threads, which needed to be cleaned out.
> 
> Since then, I've run a "fake" Dogma2 (for a year, doing 550km a week) and my son (and three friends) have done the same. Not a single issue. The quality now is seriously on par with my real 60.1, which now hangs in the garage!
> 
> I've just ordered a new 65.1 and look forward to receiving it. Perhaps it's a little unethical, but so is charging 10k for a frame, which is made in China in exactly the same region as the "fakes", at a neighbouring factory (yes, that's correct). Pinarello lost me as a customer as soon as I became aware of their faux-Italian manufacturing! That's more unethical than anything.


Interesting to hear from someone who actually has owned and ridden both. Thanks for posting but you obviously don't know the amount of retaliation you're about to receive from the enthusiasts on this forum!


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## Cinelli 82220

Qarbon said:


> A Dogma frame in Australia $9,900AUD!


30 seconds on Google found a Dogma2 complete with Campagnolo Super Record and Fulcrum 3 wheels for $9500. 

Glen Parker Cycles - Specials

I agree about the price being ridiculous actually, it's the same in North America where one distributor has a monopoly on the market. Buying from Europe is the only way to go, better selection and price.


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## antihero77

Cinelli 82220 said:


> 30 seconds on Google found a Dogma2 complete with Campagnolo Super Record and Fulcrum 3 wheels for $9500.
> 
> Glen Parker Cycles - Specials
> 
> I agree about the price being ridiculous actually, it's the same in North America where one distributor has a monopoly on the market. Buying from Europe is the only way to go, better selection and price.


 what stores do you buy your pinarellos from?
Looking to buy a second bike. 
But very tempted by the chinarello.


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## Cinelli 82220

Shinybikes or Bellatisport


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## AnthonyL88

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Shinybikes or Bellatisport


Bellatisport is a great place to buy cycling stuff.


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## antihero77

Yeah but don't u get hammered on customs?


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## martinrm

antihero77 said:


> Yeah but don't u get hammered on customs?


I have never had a problem with customs, even on my large orders. They usually only sieze the items if its multiple same items in a package, or something that looks suspicious. They chinese also do 2 other things to help you out, they mark the package as a gift to avoid suspicion, and they put a low numerical value on the package to lower import tax. However, there is still one more layer of security, packages sent through EMS often do not get scrupulous attention paid to them from customs unlike USPS.


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## antihero77

What site has the best chinarellos?


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## martinrm

antihero77 said:


> What site has the best chinarellos?


The best frames i have seen yet are from aliexpress seller greatkeenbikes. I made a post about this frame earlier being completely asymmetric like the real dogma. If you get one please post pictures. I have never personally bought from greatkeenbikes but on the chinese carbon frame thread other people have and they have been happy with the bikes. 

If i were to buy one i would get this one after many hours of research, for fun. 
Aliexpress.com : Buy 2013 model Completely Asymmetrical Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Think2 white red Full Carbon Bicycle Frame+fork+seatpost+clamp+headset from Reliable 2013 Pinarello suppliers on Greatkeen Bike Sport equipment co.,LTD(aero seatpost)

They also have different paint options but make sure its the same frame, you want the asymmetric frame set.


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## antihero77

I'm far from purchasing a chinarello but sooo tempted. Would build it up with eps athena. But just bought a real dogma 2.but very tempted can't beat that price


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## martinrm

I just want to see what one of these look like in real life. Ive already said to myself if i get in a crash during a race im getting a chinarello next time (prob put my own decals on it, and make it mine). I just am not gonna pay $4k for a new frame.


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## jaggrin

Don't understand why anyone would want to take a chance and ride a bike that is made anonomously by some fly by night shop in China. Even if you are riding a Motobecane it is manufactured with quality control checks and adheres to the standards that Motobecane puts in place. These fake Pinarello's or for that matter any of the bikes being sold through Alibabi or other sights could be held together by duct tape under the first layer of carbon. I wouldn't trust bombing some descent with a knock off frame. Same thing with these guys buying cheap carbon wheels.


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## martinrm

jaggrin said:


> Don't understand why anyone would want to take a chance and ride a bike that is made anonomously by some fly by night shop in China. Even if you are riding a Motobecane it is manufactured with quality control checks and adheres to the standards that Motobecane puts in place. These fake Pinarello's or for that matter any of the bikes being sold through Alibabi or other sights could be held together by duct tape under the first layer of carbon. I wouldn't trust bombing some descent with a knock off frame. Same thing with these guys buying cheap carbon wheels.


Read the chinese carbon frames and wheel threads and see what people who have actually bought/riden this products think about them. Lately the chinese manufactures have produced much better carbon products than 2-3 years ago.


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## rayovolks

so now this thread is endorsing/posting links/recommending purchasing chinarellos?!


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## martinrm

rayovolks said:


> so now this thread is endorsing/posting links/recommending purchasing chinarellos?!


People ask, i answer. I have my own opinions on these chinarellos, but i dont endorse perse.


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## twin001

Cinelli 82220 said:


> All they need to make an exact copy is the file for the CNC mill that cuts the molds....it's probably on the Pirate Bay by now.


That is what is needed to make a replica, but a little more than that is required to make an "exact" copy. Specifically engineering documents that detail the carbon/resin used, ply layups, cure schedules....and so on.


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## Cinelli 82220

twin001 said:


> That is what is needed to make a replica, but a little more than that is required to make an "exact" copy. Specifically engineering documents that detail the carbon/resin used, ply layups, cure schedules....and so on.


My bad. 

Looks are all that matter to some buyers. Some sellers use pics stolen from the Pina website or people's picture galleries. The deleted Madfiber thread had an ad for wheels which used a pic stolen from someone's picasa gallery. What you see may not be what you get.


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## martinrm

rucskus said:


> How about this.....it's getting hotter


Is that yours?


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## rayovolks

now on fleabay of course.

Pinarello DOGMA 65.1 Think 2 2013 Frameset NEW

for US$ 3,599


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## Cinelli 82220

^ Complete with a picture stolen from the Pinarello website. 

Buy on Dh for $600 and sell on EBay for $3599...not a bad profit!


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## merckxman

Looks like Chinarellos and Masi are made in same place.


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## martinrm

merckxman said:


> Lookslike Chinarellos and Masi are made in same place.


Where did you find these pictures? 

P.S Do not look up Masi on DHGate, its not a bike frame. . .


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## Cinelli 82220

Those pics are great merckxman. Sadly those Masis are probably the legit ones.

Here's a link to the counterfeiter's own facebook page, with tons of interesting pictures...Cycle Links House | Facebook...he has all kinds of frames, Pina, Bianchi, Cervelo, even carbon shoe soles. Maybe he is making fake Sidis?

Public Enemy Number One for Pinarello, Cervelo and Bianchi:


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## ml29

They would have a better chance passing those frames off as dogma 2 as they don't appear to have the manual/electronic cable routes of the new 65.1. 

While on first impression they appear to be pretty good imitations there are obvious differences such as the dogma print overlaps the red, the tones on the font for the black orange are also wrong. These "mistakes" helps when trying to spot the fakes.


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## Cinelli 82220

Of course the decals and paint are going to be off. It's done by kids looking at a picture on a laptop for guidance. Some of the frames do have the dual routing of the 65.1, it can be seen in other pics on the site. In these pictures the black grommets have not yet been attached so it doesn't show up.


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## rayovolks

don't forget this other d-bag on f-book.

CarbonXsports


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## ka0t1c07

For those that bought the chinarellos. Are the bottom bracket Italian thread or is it still English thread?


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## rayovolks

on fleabay, with fake bora wheels

2013 Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Think2 New


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## Cinelli 82220

That's awful...not even close.


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## AJ88V

I just struggled through this decision. Found a bike with a full SRAM Force kit and decent other components (wheels, bars) for $1000, so I could put a full bike together for maybe $1800 with a fake frame and miscellaneous parts. But Force on a Dogma frame would be a dead giveaway anyway. 

Found a leftover '11 Paris frame in my size for $2500, so could put that together for $3500. Then I found the same setup using a closeout '12 frame built for me for $4100

Would love to know the real weight of one of these Chinarello frames compared to what it's mimicking. Also, what quality of carbon they are using.

Anyway, made my decision to get the real Pina, just a lesser one that I can afford. 

Fakes are theft and rip off everybody, including those who own the real thing. 

Unless of course we are talking about fake Cervelos. That would be something else entirely!


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## Enders13

My China frame is on hopefully a fast boat as we speak. It's a Think 2 replica as i simply could not afford the real thing. I've already done the second hand real deal route buying a Look 481 which has been fantastic and a budget way in to the sport to find out if I had the staying power, which I have and I've joined a club. In the recession we are in people will look for budget options and having researched thoroughly I've decided to go replica. I get a style of frame I like and it's enabled me to scrimp less on the components so I'll be full 2013 Chorus with Mavic Cosmic SL's. A guy in the club has a legit Dog 2 in the same size so I'm going to do some side by side pics which he's happy to do, I did say, look this is a fake so I would understand if he didn't want to but he doesn't care. I probs will never sell this frame, most likely make it my winter bike if I ever changed but it will most likely enable me to buy a TT bike as well if the bug totally hits. I certainly would not try and pass it off as the real deal but understand that there are some unscrupulous people out there that would try and rip someone off. The dedicated forum thread to the china frames and velobuild seem to be full of genuine people just looking to build a nice budget bike. Also the manufacturer/agent I chose have fully EN tested their products, we might not get a sticker but they have the test equipment and their own reputation to keep. If you look into it, there are a lot of happy people. I wish I'd found out I could have had Chinerello on the side for no extra cost before I had it shipped and that would have covered my intentions but it will have Pinarello on, and ok it's not real and I would say the same to anyone asking but it's still free advertising to the company that put the RnD and design into it's creation and copies just spurs the company on to make further innovation and retain exclusivity. Ok that's a bit of self justification but Pina have not lost out on a sale with me or most likely any other person buying a replica.


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## kangaroo

Doesn't bother me one bit these fakes.
How many are really bought compared to the actual revenue Pinarello generates.
Bike snobs can't stand the fact that a Walmart clerk can get a great looking bike for 10% of the actual cost. Think of these frames as if they were diamonds. Diamonds are a big ripoff and so are these boutique frames. Chinerello's are as safe as any frame on the road these days. Far East manufacturing has come a long way and these guys on Alibaba do not make the frame as they are distributors only. Guess who makes these frames? Same factory as the bike you ride on today in all likeliness.
So when someone rides a Chinerello on his/her next club ride, some fat overweight dentist or lawyer type doesn't even sniff their nose at the replica itself but rather at the fact that their bike is no longer 'exclusive'. Someone compared the Chinerello to a Fiero-Ferrari copy. The Chinerello is a much more closer replica.

Maybe if the Pinarellos were still actually made in Italy then it would/could demand the extra cost for real craftmanship. Not so however, Pinarello went to Asia to save money...wow, what a concept... So some cheapo gets theirs from Asia too...What's the real difference? Purists can go on ALL DAY, but who cares. People harp on the safety issue where there really is none. Pinarello itself has a warehouse of bad frames returned on warranty. Chinerello's have no warranty (not a practical one anyways) so it's buyer beware. 2013 will see the gap between real and replicas narrow with only the finish and decals the difference. The rawness of the finish is why they are so cheap and of course perhaps the carbon grade. 

I think I'll get one just to piss off the dork that has one in our shop group.


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## AnthonyL88

I won't get piss off, because someone is riding a fake Dogma in my group or area. It's just tell me a little something about the kind of person he is buying a fake product. You assume most people who ride a Dogma, C59 or other high end bikes must be a lawyer, doctor or some rich dude. Well, you are so wrong because I'm not rich at all, but if I want something I will start saving my money to buy the real product I wanted to buy. Buying a fake frame will only support the criminals. If money is an issue than there are many nice frames made by a lot of very good bike brands.


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## kangaroo

Im not assuming at all that every Dogma owner is a rich dude, just demonstrating an example of a Dogma owner. Same can be said for owning a Porsche: buy it with the money you have in your left sock or save up and buy one.

Many nice people buy replica bikes. Doesn't mean they are lesser people. I'll buy one for the style and to race in crits. If I crash then the loss is limited...

If counterfeiting is so heinous, we should really blow up all Walmarts. Everything there is practically a made in China replica of some sort, disposable if anything.

And yes, there are many, many nice, inexpensive frames to suit all budgets. It seems as though the Dogma styling to many is irresistible fake or otherwise hence that desire to own one.


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## Cinelli 82220

AnthonyL88 said:


> I won't get piss off, because someone is riding a fake Dogma in my group or area. It's just tell me a little something about the kind of person he is buying a fake product. You assume most people who ride a Dogma, C59 or other high end bikes must be a lawyer, doctor or some rich dude. Well, you are so wrong because I'm not rich at all, but if I want something I will start saving my money to buy the real product I wanted to buy. Buying a fake frame will only support the criminals. If money is an issue than there are many nice frames made by a lot of very good bike brands.


^This...lots of people save and sacrifice to get nice bikes, it's their one luxury in life.

And even those doctors and lawyers work plenty hard for their money. My neighbour and riding buddy does plenty of 24hr (or more) shifts in the ER. I don't resent him having a nice bike.


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## AnthonyL88

Cinelli 82220 said:


> ^This...lots of people save and sacrifice to get nice bikes, it's their one luxury in life.
> 
> And even those doctors and lawyers work plenty hard for their money. My neighbour and riding buddy does plenty of 24hr (or more) shifts in the ER. I don't resent him having a nice bike.


I agree, a lot of people do sacrifice everything to get a nice bike. Why do people work so hard in life? Some want to buy a nice house, some want a nice car and some people just want to buy a dream bike.

If I wanted just a nice bike and didn't want to spend $$$$, I would be happy riding a Cannondale CAAD10 over any counterfeit frame or bike.

But I always wanted to buy a Dogma and I saved up everything I had to make the purchase.


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## dr.baig

What about the people who arent actually buying decalled frames. Plain black clear coated stuff. I mean if you google chinarello you can obviously see some certainly not interested in passing it as an original when it is not.


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## AnthonyL88

dr.baig said:


> What about the people who arent actually buying decalled frames. Plain black clear coated stuff. I mean if you google chinarello you can obviously see some certainly not interested in passing it as an original when it is not.


I have the Dogma 2 Bob color frame and you can barely see the Pinarello Dogma 2 decals, because everything is black on black. You can just look at the frame and know it's a Pinarello. So, I think even if the Chinarello frame got no decals on the frame but they got parts on the frame which look like a Pinarello, it's a counterfeit frame. For example if you are driving and looking in your rearview mirror, you see a car behind you, just by looking at the front grille you can tell it's a BMW without looking at their logo.


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## jwl325

apn, your SN appears to be formatted the same as my FPQ. 



apn said:


> Is this limited to Dogma models?
> 
> Curious, since it doesn't appear to be the case for my 2012 Quattro, from my reg email;
> 
> FRAME DATA
> Retail purchase date: 2012-04-06
> Sales receipt number: <removed>
> Model: FPQUATTRO
> year: 2012
> Color: W/B/R 593
> Size: 56
> Wheels: Fulcrum Racing 5
> Group: Ultegra
> Frame serial number: 2AZ********98 <edited>
> 
> NOTES ON THE REGISTRATION:
> 
> Sincerely,
> Cicli Pinarello S.p.A.


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## dr.baig

AnthonyL88 said:


> I have the Dogma 2 Bob color frame and you can barely see the Pinarello Dogma 2 decals, because everything is black on black. You can just look at the frame and know it's a Pinarello. So, I think even if the Chinarello frame got no decals on the frame but they got parts on the frame which look like a Pinarello, it's a counterfeit frame. For example if you are driving and looking in your rearview mirror, you see a car behind you, just by looking at the front grille you can tell it's a BMW without looking at their logo.


Yeah i think i actually dont agree with that. There has to be a certain percent of plagiarism before it can be classed as a counterfeit. I am neither for or against buying it though.

Only certain people can look and know straight away its a pinarello. Maybe after the exploits of team sky at the tour more commoners have the knowledge on certain products but i dont think average joe is still that much interested in a high end pinarello.

All that aside, the analogy of a bmw badge to a bicycle is irrelevant. If you would have said a ferrari/lambo i would have agreed on that point. The other thing is you mention the BMW logo, how many people will actually know it is a pinarello if there are no logos on it and it is running tiagra and low end alu wheels.

Justifiable or not, this is an open ended argument. Off course people who own real pinarellos are ticked off but on the other hand i dont think people buying these frames from china actually care about anyone else's opinion.. Then again there is also the anonymity over the internet where people are calling for frames to brake and people to get hurt which i think is uncalled for however does beg the question if you would react the same way if a chinarello rider was riding right next to you and was all open about it being a fake and not caring what you thought about him and his bike.


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## Sisbud

What kind of BB that these china made dogmas come with?


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## stejam

Sisbud said:


> What kind of BB that these china made dogmas come with?


Mine has a metric thread not Italian!


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## LouisLu

Real or fake?! Only to differentiate when side by side

View attachment 278645


View attachment 278647


View attachment 278646


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## Juzzy004

That frame is not a real Pinarello.


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## ziggi

The frame in the back is a fake (I'm sure). 
The frame in the front I say it's real Pina


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## Bigkohuna

*Fake Pinarello*



Qarbon said:


> I just registered here after finding this thread on Google. I couldn't resist having some input on this topic, as I have a fairly unique experience in this area. For a start, I own genuine 60.1 and my wife has a genuine Prince. They're lovely frames, but the fact is, they're not worth anything like the price consumers are required to pay - it's almost comical, really. A Dogma frame in Australia $9,900AUD! I also used to ride downhill MTB and paid _overwhelmingly less_ for a fully-kitted downhill frame than for a genuine Pinarello, which is just a basic carbon wrap! My son is a composites engineer and bought an early 60.1 "Chinarello" two years ago out of curiousity. What we found was... nothing... That is to say, the frame was faultless and beautifully engineered; the only exception being some excess resin in the BB threads, which needed to be cleaned out.
> 
> Since then, I've run a "fake" Dogma2 (for a year, doing 550km a week) and my son (and three friends) have done the same. Not a single issue. The quality now is seriously on par with my real 60.1, which now hangs in the garage!
> 
> I've just ordered a new 65.1 and look forward to receiving it. Perhaps it's a little unethical, but so is charging 10k for a frame, which is made in China in exactly the same region as the "fakes", at a neighbouring factory (yes, that's correct). Pinarello lost me as a customer as soon as I became aware of their faux-Italian manufacturing! That's more unethical than anything.


I am with you mate. I have a new 65.1made in China and cannot fault it. I also own a Fondriest made in Taiwan cannot fault it either.
I really dont know what the hype is all about. We all buy and wear Chinese clothes drive their cars we even eat their food. The crap that people go on about who what and where to buy is ridiculous. I love both my bikes and will buy again and again. The only thing I would and have bought Italian is a Ducati and I have Italian heritage.


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## Bigkohuna

Yep I have one and if all those whingers complain cause "im buying a fake".. Better change your clothes or remove your "sponsored clothing " cause you guys are no different


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## Bigkohuna

Nar mate Just doit


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## AnthonyL88

I currently ride a Dogma 2 but I'm planning on buying a custom Formigli frame soon. 100% hand crafted in Italy.


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## rayovolks

The relevant issue is intellectual property theft. Regardless of how it is justified, these sellers/manufacturers take someone else's intellectual property and steal such for their own profit. 

Please take the time to read what kind of impact IP theft has in general. 

IP Commission Report - The Report of the Commission on the Theft of American Intellectual Property


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## Notvintage

The manufacturers have only themselves to blame. It's why Campagnolo is all made in Italy or Romania. They realize once you go to the Far East for manufacturing; the cats out of the bag.


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## Notvintage

That's awesome. Much better than the silly Italian threading on the real Pinarello that's made in The Far East.


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## masi85

For some reason the Chinarello's aren't painted with the large metal flake paint that comes on a genuine Pina with the Diamond finish.


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## Sighclone

more wonders: Wholesale 2013 Completely Di2 Asymmetrical Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Think 2 Black Orange 850 Carbon Bicycle Frame, Free shipping, $585.0/Set | DHgate


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## dogma65

Hello, I received the ordered frame Pinarello Dogma 65.1. Written little review. Sorry for my bad english, I just begin to study it.
Seller KODE HK: 2013 model Pinarello Dogma 65.1 DI2 Think2 028 White Carbon Bike Frame+fork+seatpost+clamp+headset road bicycle-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com
1. Fake. 100% chinarello. The frame should be asymmetrical. Measurement calipers showed that the front and rear forks are symmetrical. Thickness left and right parts are identical. This is Dogma 60 painted as 65.1? 
2. Carbon fiber tube crushes easily by fingers. Very thin. It seems me, is dangerous to ride on such bicycle. Only the seat post was made well. 
3. In some places, poorly painted. 
4. Fake invoice on box: the product name "simple frame" (must be Pinarello Dogma2 65.1 frame ") and the invoice price 60 $ (must be 520). How to get promised warranty 2 years? 
5. The track number for tracking and shipping the first time gave a fake. 
6. Fake frame number - registration on Pinarello`s web page is impossible. 
7. No certificate, no passport or other docs for frame in parcel (but "Made in Italy" on saddle tube and UCI mark on top). 

I do not recommend to buy it.
Now is night, if need, can to attach real fotos of this frame


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## masi85

That frame looks pretty bad even for a Chinarello!


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## dogma65

Hey, guys, a few photos.
Sorry, good fotocamera was busy on video of unpacking the parcel, only from mobile phone.
Look at serial number: KD201308 = 2013 year 08 month!
And geometry near Merida ride 88.
Сolor scheme is standard, but the green color is my (optional)


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## Sighclone

So, what do we look for, for sure?

Serial number, and legit barcode?

Metric vs. Italian BB?

Asymmetrical seatstays?

Plastic cable routing guide under BB?

Weight?

Matte finish vs. Glossy?

Thanks.

(I just bought a used 2012 Paris frame on Ebay...very low price, rec'd yesterday, looks legit, esp. SN, asymmetrical, etc. Measurements are same as factory specs, does have a MOst seat post, and housing on seat tube is round, not oval.)


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## dogma65

_Serial number, and legit barcode?_
I tryed to enter this SN on web page of factory Pinarello, It is clearly, that SN is false.

_Metric vs. Italian BB?_
Metric, 34mm x 1 mm, left and right thread, buyed ball bearings Shimano XTR (marked on box as SM BB 90 for front stars Shimano 105)

_Asymmetrical seatstays?_
You mean seat tube? It has a teardrop-shaped profile, the head is moved backwards. Well visible carbon fiber intertwining. Saddle tube is a very powerful and reliable (genuine)

_Plastic cable routing guide under BB?_
Сables run inside the pipe, then go under the bottom bracket on the street, then again hidden in the lower part of rear fork.

_Weight?_
Frame size 56 (my height 180 cm, weight 60 kg) = 1250 grams
Front fork = 430-450 grams
Saddle tube 250 grams.

_Matte finish vs. Glossy?_
You can order any color, as well as matte or gloss paint. I ordered green, because I wanted Cannondale CAAD10 team replica, but could not find. (from international table of colors RAL 6038)
I recommend buying a color "barbecue" (BOB, black, this is naked carbon frame without paint). This means only the lacquer painting and polishing. Why? Because it will be seen as qualitatively made ​​frame. Every flaw will be seen. This is the reason why the factory in Treviso in Italy bought frames without paint - to check the quality of the surface (at least)

Thanks Google translator for help in translating to english  I hope, my answer was useful.

Are expected assembly and test of the bike (in beginning of october)


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## masi85

Interesting how "Made in Italy" is painted on in the counterfeit along with all the other lettering but on a real Dogma "Made in Italy" is just a sticker. Makes you wonder how much Italy there is in a real Dogma! The masking between colors on the fake looks as carefully done as the real thing though.


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## Cinelli 82220

I'm sorry you got conned there dogma65.


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## dogma65

It's all right, sir, this is serially-produced frame. Pinarello factory has time to produce 5,000 frames per year that's enough for the professional riders of all world.. I am a fan of Team Sky or Movistar - what to do? Italian frames are absent in the free sale. I would like to buy bicycle such as has Chris Froome or Nairo Quintana! For fans of specially made a copies.
Label "Made in Italy"? I am asked to do it, and UCI sticker on the top tube frame and to paint in my colors


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## SFbike2013

Hello,

An ex-boyfriend who has " a way with words" gave me this frame for my birthday. However, I am very suspicious about whether it is a replica or real... Please see attached. The frame is at my friend's house-I don't recall seeing the serial number however, I did not look for it. WHere would I find it?


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## Cinelli 82220

Serial number is on a sticker just in front of the bottom bracket on the underside of the down tube.

Can you tell if the bottom bracket threads are English thread or Italian?


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## Juzzy004

My guess, looking at the silver Most frame protector, is that it's not a genuine frame. Does not look like a sticker and appears painted on.
Tough to be sure from that pic though.


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## dogma65

SFbike2013 said:


> WHere would I find it?


Such SN is fake (KD201308)










Cinelli 82220 said:


> Can you tell if the bottom bracket threads are English thread or Italian?


On my chinese Pinarello is English 68, buyed ball bearings Shimano XTR SM-BB 90, Hollowtech II, thread 34x1 mm. For front stars Shimano 105. Other foto (clickable)

On left side *right * thread, on right side *left* thread.
Information about bottom bracket is on the the seller's site (click to enlarge)

I hope my message was useful


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## spdntrxi

dogma65 said:


> Such SN is fake (KD201308)
> View attachment 287300


not even close to real


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## masi85

How could any one be conned when their Dogma is coming from China and they are only paying $520? For the money it looks like a decent (but counterfeit) frame with a nice paint job. My understanding is the companys that actually manufacture these frames pull out random samples for standardized testing so its unlikely to fall apart or crack any more than name brand frames. The fact that Pinarello or the importer Gita does not seem to be defending their trademark (like Specialized is with their Venge frames etc.) makes me wonder how much they really care about this!


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## Sighclone

masi85 said:


> How could any one be conned when their Dogma is coming from China and they are only paying $520? For the money it looks like a decent (but counterfeit) frame with a nice paint job. My understanding is the companys that actually manufacture these frames pull out random samples for standardized testing so its unlikely to fall apart or crack any more than name brand frames. The fact that Pinarello or the importer Gita does not seem to be defending their trademark (like Specialized is with their Venge frames etc.) makes me wonder how much they really care about this!


Good point. Some posters announce that they are consciously buying fake frames, assuming reliability, without warranty. Bike snobs care, of course, and Pinarello's market has a bunch of snobs, for sure. I'm guessing most of the buyers could drop ten pounds easily. Which extra weight pretty much erases any benefits from Assymetric-designed 60-ton carbon. So the snobs buy new from dealers and spend a lot of time polishing and worrying about scratches. I bought a legit used 2012 Paris frame (got SN verified by Gita, has correct paint, factory cable guides, badging...seems to hold up to scrutiny.) But got a deal because Giovanni has not signed off on it. I'll let you know if it breaks.


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## Cinelli 82220

masi85 said:


> My understanding is the companys that actually manufacture these frames pull out random samples for standardized testing so its unlikely to fall apart or crack any more than name brand frames.


Can you document that? EFBE has a list of all the frames they test, I don't see Dengfu on it anywhere.


> The fact that Pinarello or the importer Gita does not seem to be defending their trademark (like Specialized is with their Venge frames etc.) makes me wonder how much they really care about this!


Just how do you suggest they go about enforcing their IP rights in a sovereign country? China's gov't couldn't care less. Specialized, Cervelo, Colnago and Bianchi copies are all available. Phone up your Chinese ambassador and see what he does about it.


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## dogma65

masi85 said:


> How could any one be conned when their Dogma is coming from China and they are only paying $520?


I'm sure it's licensed frame. Why? See for yourself: in the Chinese market Cannondale sold as Cann0nda1 or as SuperLight, Cervelo as just R5, Colnago as C01nag0, that is hiding the name of the brand. This means that Cannondale, Cervelo and Colnago prohibit selling fake under his own name. Pinarello sold under real name. This suggests that the Italians moved manufacturing to China serial frames. For the mass consumer

For example: why real name of brand is hidden?
SuperSix EVO Frame XRoad Bicycle Frame and fork wholesale full carbon bicycle frame hot sale! super light!-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com

And this brand is not hidden:
2013 model Pinarello Dogma 65.1 DI2 Think2 028 White Carbon Bike Frame+fork+seatpost+clamp+headset road bicycle-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com

(sorry for bad english, I just began to study it


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## masi85

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Can you document that? EFBE has a list of all the frames they test, I don't see Dengfu on it anywhere.
> 
> Just how do you suggest they go about enforcing their IP rights in a sovereign country? China's gov't couldn't care less. Specialized, Cervelo, Colnago and Bianchi copies are all available. Phone up your Chinese ambassador and see what he does about it.



1) I was referring to the in factory test rigs all these manufacturers use on a daily basis to maintain consistent quality.

2) I was referring to enforcing their trademarks in the end user countries like Specialized is doing in the US now by working with Customs to intercept and detain shipments infringing on their IP rights. Is Pinarello doing the same thing in the EU now?


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## Cinelli 82220

dogma65 said:


> I'm sure it's licensed frame.


That's so ridiculous I don't even know how to debate it.

It's not licensed. It's not even a good copy. And if was licensed the copies would be more uniform, there are obvious variations in design and finish among the copies.

I recently posted photos of fake Cervelo, Colnago and Bianchi frames alongside fake Pinarellos in a counterfeiter's workshop. All had the brand names on them.

Pinarello has many of their own models for the mass market.


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## Cinelli 82220

masi85 said:


> 1) I was referring to the in factory test rigs all these manufacturers use on a daily basis to maintain consistent quality.


You've visited all of them to see these rigs?
Lots of these sellers claim to be sending their frames to EFBE or equivalents for CE testing. But they can't prove it when asked about it.
Also, I've seen some well respected framebuilders who do NO testing. 




> 2) I was referring to enforcing their trademarks in the end user countries like Specialized is doing in the US now by working with Customs to intercept and detain shipments infringing on their IP rights. Is Pinarello doing the same thing in the EU now?


I believe Gita and Pina are both trying to do it but it is very difficult, much more difficult than it may appear. Look how hard the entertainment industry is fighting piracy, yet they are losing the battle. Brand name clothing companies also fight hard yet you can find tons of fake Rolexes or Louis Vuitton easily.
Customs have limited resources and have much higher priority things to worry about than bicycles or purses. I work in a company that sends product all over the world, I deal with customs a lot. You can't imagine the volume of packages in a customs clearing center. Like I said, they have their priorities, and the rest, there's no time. Think about the last time you crossed a land border, did they take every single car apart? No, of course not. They do what they can but they can't do everything.
EBay...they don't even accept reports of fake items anymore.
Hiring lawyers to pursue counterfeiters? Well, just call up a lawyer and ask him how much it will cost to track down a counterfeiter (not an easy thing to do thanks to anonymous sales sites like aliexpress) and then go to China and launch a case in Chinese court. 
Yes Specialized is trying but they aren't making much progress. Just a few days ago someone posted a fake Venge in the Specialized section of this forum, and tried top pass it off as legit.
Finally, I'd say don't blame Pinarello for not enforcing the copyright, the fraudsters in China and their collaborators over here are the criminals.


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## dogma65

Cinelli 82220 said:


> That's so ridiculous I don't even know how to debate it.


Ah, yes. I'm sorry, my English mistakes again. I would like to say that it is "licensed factory" ( not for professionals). Green color does not exist in the catalog - it is my order (in person).
Please wait. I do repairs in my room (painting the ceiling, walls, etc.), will soon make a bike and start speed test (now there is no free space in my room) 
Place your bets: will be 55 km / h or less? Before, I was driving maximum 53 km/h (33 miles/h) on a hybrid 28"


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## P3T3R

martinrm said:


> The best frames i have seen yet are from aliexpress seller greatkeenbikes.


It appears that some of the folks from Greatkeenbikes have left and started Joybikes. I actually got a much better response from Joybike than Greatkeenbikes. I contacted Shana who used to work there and was on velobuild too. She recomended Bob from Joybikes.




> They also have different paint options but make sure its the same frame, you want the asymmetric frame set.


I think all the frams sold now are the asymmetric ones.


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## PaxRomana

The stem police would like a few words with you.

Also...seat not level.


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## Kenrow

Looks like someone has been reading the "Headset for a new-ish Chinese carbon frame" thread...


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## masi85

Interesting review! Results are as expected. The finish on these Chinese frames is often less than perfect but they seem to stay together in one piece even after jumping curbs. And if it eventually cracks somewhere toss it and get another. All my riding buddies have name brand bikes (Trek, Litespeed -Ti, Cervelo) that eventually cracked so it's not just the cheap frames that fail.


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