# Groupset Ranking Chart (Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo) Opinions?



## StabbyJoe89

Heya,

I've poured over hundreds of threads and many reviews of different groupsets and how they compare to and against each other. I've come up with this mental image of how they would line up with each other across the big 3 so I decided to put it in a visual format. This is just a general guideline of how _I_ perceive them to be arranged based on all the information I've read and the arguments I've heard. I remember scouring the inets for something like this back when I was starting to learn about groupsets. So I thought having a little tier system providing general rankings/guidelines might be useful for new guys looking to pick their first groupset. By general ranking I’m thinking just roughly where they would line up, I don’t mean to start an all-out battle royale =p. I would very much appreciate any opinions and input! All are welcome! From detailed, experience-based comparisons to a quick reply saying “X group should be at tier #4 .” Thanks!!!

*What would you switch around?* Just a forum to shoot around ideas!


#
*Shimano*
*SRAM*
*Campagnolo*
1
Super Record
2
Dura-Ace
Red
Record
3
Force
Chorus
4
Ultegra
Athena
5
Rival
Centaur
6
105
7
Apex
Veloce
8
Tiagra
9
Sora
10
Claris


***I did not include Di2, EPS, or 10 vs 11 speed into the considerations. I feel like that would add a whole other level to all this. I'd like to consider this just in terms of mechs, performance, weights, asthetics, ergonomics, etc. Thanks!


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## headloss

For starters, Athena and Centaur are equal on almost all counts... so that seems like a trivial distinction. Athena has better chain rings... that's the only edge I can think of. 

Why even bother with Sora and Claris on your list? Limit it to 10&11 speed. Otherwise, you might as well include older technology from other brands. Hell, why not include microshift?


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## StabbyJoe89

Lol you're totally right. It was more for the sake of appeasing my neuroses of having the full groupsets listed =p. I've had experience with Shimano and SRAM but never Campy and this is the kind of input I'm looking for, thanks! How would you describe the feel of Campy shifting as opposed to the others?


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## headloss

StabbyJoe89 said:


> How would you describe the feel of Campy shifting as opposed to the others?


I think it's all personal preference and ergonomics. It's also what you're used to. I think it's a waste of time trying to compare across brands. From a quality of shift perspective, I'm happy with 105, Athena/Centaur/Veloce (integrated shifters are identical-ish) or Rival. I can't speak for the current generation of anything above that. I think that the current Shimano stuff looks like it was invented by Robo-Cop and won't use it based on aesthetics alone.

If you are going to compare, you need to expand the list to reflect model years... the name on the component only tells a part of the story.


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## StabbyJoe89

Glad to hear that I could expect comparable shifting performance even if I were to try out the lower end Campy Veloce/Centaur (only ones that I can see myself affording =p).

I completely agree about the aesthetics of the newer DA/Ultegra levels. I'm not a fan of the 4 arm spider to begin with and the smoothed over, polished look just doesn't do it for me


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## PlatyPius

I'm probably a little biased, but I'd line them up a little differently.


#*Shimano**SRAM**Campagnolo*1Super Record2Record3Dura-AceRedChorus4UltegraForceAthena5RivalCentaur61057ApexVeloce8Tiagra9Sora10Claris11Touney A070

<tbody>

</tbody>


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## kbwh

I'd be willing to give DA9000 a 2, Platy. It's PDG. 
SRAM I'd shift down, starting at 4 due to utter crap ergonomics.


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## mikerp

Inevitably this thread will go south, but I like PP's adjustment.
You can guess what camp I'm in


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## CampyTim

I would just remove all the non-Campagnolo groups, as they're not made by Campagnolo.

That's my unbiased opinion.


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## MXL

CampyTim said:


> I would just remove all the non-Campagnolo groups, as they're not made by Campagnolo.
> 
> That's my unbiased opinion.


:thumbsup:


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## MR_GRUMPY

Groupset Ranking Chart (Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo) Opinions?

Are you talking about cost?......Ego building?........Rich Fred appeal???

Record, Dura Ace, Chorus, and Red all are close.
Untegra, Force, and Centaur are just a little behind in shifting ability, but way behind in Rich Fred appeal.

Any of the above will seldom lose you a race.
.
.


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## SNS1938

 #*Shimano**SRAM**Campagnolo*1Dura-Ace (great shifting & brakes)Super Record (beautiful, but expensive spares)2Red (so slight weight)Record3Chorus4Ultegra5Force6105Athena7TiagraRivalCentaur8ApexVeloce9Sora10 

<tbody>

</tbody>
This is how I rank them from my experience on some of them and reviews on others. As a buyer, I'm thinking about mechanical feel mainly, and secondly aesthetics and weight. I really like the quality feel of my Dura-ace shifters and brakes.


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## tvad

SNS1938 said:


>  #*Shimano**SRAM**Campagnolo*1Dura-Ace (great shifting & brakes)Super Record (beautiful, but expensive spares)2Red (so slight weight)Record3Chorus4Ultegra5Force6105Athena7TiagraRivalCentaur8ApexVeloce9Sora10 
> 
> <tbody>
> 
> </tbody>


As an owner of Record/Super Record mix, and of Dura Ace 9000 Mechanical, I like this chart. The only adjustment I'd make would be to move Ultegra up to #3 - tied with Chorus. Commenting only on the mechanical groupsets because I don't have experience with the electronic versions, neither Campagnolo Super Record/Record or Dura Ace 9000 are perfect (I get more dropped chains with Campy/ I miss the multi shifts on Dura Ace), but they each have exceptional qualities.


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## ultimobici

SNS1938 said:


>  #*Shimano**SRAM**Campagnolo*1Dura-Ace (great shifting & brakes)Super Record (beautiful, but expensive spares)2Red (so slight weight)Record3Chorus4Ultegra5Force6105Athena7TiagraRivalCentaur8ApexVeloce9Sora10 
> 
> <tbody>
> 
> </tbody>
> This is how I rank them from my experience on some of them and reviews on others. As a buyer, I'm thinking about mechanical feel mainly, and secondly aesthetics and weight. I really like the quality feel of my Dura-ace shifters and brakes.


So Campagnolo parts are more expensive? Hogwash. Try repairing your Dura Ace STI's compared to the cost of repairing Super Record. The former is a new PAIR of shifters at £500+ whereas Campagnolo is £90. A record chain is cheaper as are the chainrings. Granted the cassette is expensive, but unlike the 9000 one it runs perfectly with no issues. Campagnolo brake pads are cheaper, as are bottom bracket bearings if you compare like with like, that is standard steel vs standard steel.


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## ultimobici

My take on the mechanical groupsets with cable brakes. 


 #*Shimano**SRAM**Campagnolo*1Super Record 2Dura AceRed 22Record3Chorus45UltegraForce 22Athena6Centaur7105RivalVeloce8TiagraApex9Sora 

<tbody>

</tbody>


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## CarbonFrame

Unbiased Opinion....Thats funny...


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## DrSmile

Isn't right about now in these types of threads when someone will start arguing that Record is better than Super Record because it's more durable?

Oh, I guess that was me!


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## tvad

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Record, Dura Ace, Chorus, and Red all are close.
> Untegra, Force, and Centaur are just a little behind in shifting ability, but way behind in Rich Fred appeal.


As a Rich Fred, I agree 100% with Mr_Grumpy.


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## davidka

ultimobici said:


> So Campagnolo parts are more expensive? Hogwash. Try repairing your Dura Ace STI's compared to the cost of repairing Super Record. The former is a new PAIR of shifters at £500+ whereas Campagnolo is £90. A record chain is cheaper as are the chainrings. Granted the cassette is expensive, but unlike the 9000 one it runs perfectly with no issues. Campagnolo brake pads are cheaper, as are bottom bracket bearings if you compare like with like, that is standard steel vs standard steel.


This is like saying a Ferrari is cheaper to maintain than a Lamborghini. 

Both of these groups last a great deal longer than the cycles in which the companies release new updated groups at which time the majority of the owners purchase the new group.

IMO the D/A is every bit Super Record's equal, super in many ways even.


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## DaveG

Interesting list. I think the reality is that very few of us have enough experience with all these groups to make a objective assessment. For me its just easier to buy Campy anyway


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## headloss

DaveG said:


> Interesting list. I think the reality is that very few of us have enough experience with all these groups to make a objective assessment. For me its just easier to buy Campy anyway


Not to mention, not all individual components degrade from best to acceptable at the same rate. My list for shifters isn't the same as my list for brake calipers, or derailleurs, or cranks... Then there is the fact that a list can vary from year to year. 2010 Centaur wasn't that far below Record in that it shared ultra-torque and Record bearings, it had ultra-shift, same FD design but heavier alloy. Pick up the 2007 Centaur UT crank, and it was even closer to Record since it had the higher end chainrings (which Athena still has, although Athena also went to power-torque and power-shift in more recent years). 

It all varies, and even if some of us are lucky enough to have sufficient experience in all of these groups, the group itself may have changed since the version we used was released.


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## jheeno

ultimobici said:


> My take on the mechanical groupsets with cable brakes.
> 
> 
>  #*Shimano**SRAM**Campagnolo*1Super Record 2Dura AceRed 22Record3Chorus45UltegraForce 22Athena6Centaur7105RivalVeloce8TiagraApex9Sora 
> 
> <tbody>
> 
> </tbody>


no experience with campy but I would see this list as being good for sram/shimano but having tested some tiagra and sora - I would dump both of them or move them lower as I feel Apex is higher than tiagra at least


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## Sundog

I am curious about which specific characteristics of the groupsets lead most folks to line up Apex with Tiagra - instead of 105. It can't be weight. It can't be new cost. It cannot be resale value. Durability seems to be a wash based on most of what I've read.

Is it the Wifli vs triple thing?

Thanks.


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## tihsepa

This whole argument is very subjective. I bought a Sram Rival group. Rode it 1000 miles and happly swaped for another Ultegra group. It wasnt better or worse. Just not for me. I could never get used to the shifting. 
And why does weight really matter? On a 22lb bike the difference between Apex and 105 is no big deal. On a 15lb bike the difference is even less. Who cares?


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## DaveG

Depends on where you are. I am a self-proclaimed Campy guy but in the US market Campy parts are more expensive that Shimano/SRAM parts, not to mention few shops actually stock them. You quoted your post in British pounds and I agree the costs delta is different there. Many Campy owners, myself included, buy their parts from the UK the avoid that


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## PaxRomana

For me:

1. SuperRecord/Record/Chorus.
2. a kick in the nuts
3. DuraAce
4. Ultegra
5. Walking

*Not making list: Sram.


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## tvad

PaxRomana said:


> For me:
> 
> 1. SuperRecord/Record/Chorus.
> 2. a kick in the nuts
> 3. DuraAce
> 4. Ultegra
> 5. Walking
> 
> *Not making list: Sram.


That's pretty damn funny!


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## DaveG

How is a kick in the nuts better than walking? Totally agree a groin shot beats Shimano though


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## tvad

DaveG said:


> How is a kick in the nuts better than walking? Totally agree a groin shot beats Shimano though


I guess if you're a hardcore cyclist, then riding with broken stones...on any crap-ola bike...is better than walking.


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## tihsepa

tvad said:


> I guess if you're a hardcore cyclist, then riding with broken stones...on any crap-ola bike...is better than walking.


Agreed. They all work well. Preference is all.


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## Cinelli 82220

davidka said:


> IMO the D/A is every bit Super Record's equal, super in many ways even.


Super Record is way ahead in number of red decals.

In fact it's way ahead in decals period.

More decals=more class.


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## SNS1938

ultimobici said:


> So Campagnolo parts are more expensive? ...


I have never worn out a shifter, and probably should have used the word 'consumables' rather than 'spares'. For example, cassettes: Dura-ace 9000 vs Super Record.


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## ultimobici

SNS1938 said:


> I have never worn out a shifter, and probably should have used the word 'consumables' rather than 'spares'. For example, cassettes: Dura-ace 9000 vs Super Record.


If you're running DA/SR/REC etc you should be watching your chain wear so cassettes aren't needed every time. If you don't, more fool you. I have never had to change both as I replace my chain before it wears out the cassette. But I take your point.


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## SNS1938

ultimobici said:


> If you're running DA/SR/REC etc you should be watching your chain wear so cassettes aren't needed every time. If you don't, more fool you. I have never had to change both as I replace my chain before it wears out the cassette. But I take your point.


I totally agree on changing chains regularly, and in fact I've never had a road cassette wear to the point where it's not usable (I generally sell them on eBay when they've been in my spares box too long and are still usable for a few thousand miles, now mtb I've worn plenty of them out to the point where they're scrap within 1000).

Is there a super record chain? I can see a Record 11spd is within 10% of DA9000 chains at around $50, which is close enough to being the same for me.

Its the initial purchase price of SR vs DA, and then the cost of buying a second and possibly third cassette (for different ratios or sets of wheels). Spending $500+tax in an LBS for a SR11 cassette, or $400 from the web, would hurt.

My biggest expenses this year on my road bike, was on tires, which would be the same no matter which group I ran. The most expensive part I have had to buy for my Dura-ace group, is a spare cassette for my second set of wheels.

I do think being able to rebuild a campy shifter is brilliant, but I do question how many people actually rebuild a shifter (people don't seem to keep bikes 'that' long anymore). To me, if DA9000 could match Red for weight and have Campag rebuildable spare parts available, then it would be the perfect groupset.


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## jtompilot

I do think being able to rebuild a campy shifter is brilliant, but I do question how many people actually rebuild a shifter (people don't seem to keep bikes 'that' long anymore). To me, if DA9000 could match Red for weight and have Campag rebuildable spare parts available, then it would be the perfect groupset.[/QUOTE]

Well, I did a stupid thing trying to hop a curb and layed my bike down. It was just my luck that the left Record shifter was the only thing that broke. $35 parts and 20 for labor and it was like new. You won't get that with that jap crap


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## sanrensho

jtompilot said:


> You won't get that with that jap crap


Racist anyone?


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## Jay Strongbow

jtompilot said:


> I do think being able to rebuild a campy shifter is brilliant, but I do question how many people actually rebuild a shifter (people don't seem to keep bikes 'that' long anymore). To me, if DA9000 could match Red for weight and have Campag rebuildable spare parts available, then it would be the perfect groupset.


Well, I did a stupid thing trying to hop a curb and layed my bike down. It was just my luck that the left Record shifter was the only thing that broke. $35 parts and 20 for labor and it was like new. You won't get that with that jap crap[/QUOTE]

FYI. In case you didn't noticed it's not 1974 anymore and a lot has changed. First, racism isn't cool any more. Second, most of that stuff people labeled as jap crap (watches, motorcycles, electronics, cars) turned out to be pretty good stuff despite the claims otherwise.
And by the way if you want to paint countries with a broad brush as far as manufacturing you should probably do a little research so as to not sound so foolish. you'll find that in general the Japanese pretty much know what they are doing when it comes to manufacturing.


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## Fireform

Yeah, Shimano is crap. That's why more pro tour teams use it than Campy and SRAM combined. 

You can just see Froome thinking, gosh if only Sky would plump for Campy, maybe I could win the Tour.


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## ultimobici

Fireform said:


> Yeah, Shimano is crap. That's why more pro tour teams use it than Campy and SRAM combined.
> 
> You can just see Froome thinking, gosh if only Sky would plump for Campy, maybe I could win the Tour.


Not how it works. Shimano and Sram have vastly more funds available to pay the likes of Sky, OPQS etc to use their kit.

As for the previous poster's comment on serviceability, while I don't agree with his way of phrasing it, it is an undeniable fact that Shimano do not make their products user serviceable and Campagnolo do.


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## Fireform

Yes I can see how that's a big deal. In the last 40,000 miles or so I've worn out one Shimano shifter.


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## ultimobici

Fireform said:


> Yes I can see how that's a big deal. In the last 40,000 miles or so I've worn out one Shimano shifter.


I'm basing my comments on observations in very very busy workshops that see all manner of issues with shifters, mechs, hubs etc. Some are due to good old wear and tear, some are from misuse and others from crashes. When it's a Campag bike, odds are our mechanics can fix it for a nominal fee but if it's Shimano it's a case of replacing the unit. 

If a customer brings his Dura Ace 10 equipped bike into us with perfectly good kit but a free hub that is shot, he's looking at a big bill just in parts. That is unless he has older Dura Ace hubs from the 7700 range, then he's stuffed. If he was in the same position but in a Record 10 bike he's looking at a maximum of £60 for the free hub or perhaps just £5 for new springs. If he's on the old Record 9 Speed hubs we may still be able to service them too. Built in obselescence versus built in serviceablity, that's the difference between the two companies' philosophies.


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## headloss

Fireform said:


> Yeah, Shimano is crap. That's why more pro tour teams use it than Campy and SRAM combined.


I don't really understand why anyone cares what the pro's use. They ride under very different conditions and with a different purpose than I do. If I wanted to build my car around what the pros use, the first thing I'd have to do is install a roll-cage and kick out any passengers.


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## tihsepa




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## DrSmile

My racist self is holding out for a DT Swiss groupset. :devil:


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## Fireform

headloss said:


> I don't really understand why anyone cares what the pro's use. They ride under very different conditions and with a different purpose than I do. If I wanted to build my car around what the pros use, the first thing I'd have to do is install a roll-cage and kick out any passengers.


I don't necessarily agree with the different conditions and different purpose argument. The gear needs to be functional, reliable, durable and light whether I'm using it or Peter Sagan is using it. He will subject it to a lot more stress than I will, but I will have it longer and for more miles. My current DA 7900 group has served on 4 different frames and for about 40k miles so far, and I dare say there are a lot more to come. The competition testing those parts went through made them perform better for me, no question.


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## Cinelli 82220

DrSmile said:


> My racist self is holding out for a DT Swiss groupset. :devil:


There was an EDCO group back in the olden days. Pretty nice too.


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## Cinelli 82220

ultimobici said:


> If a customer brings his Dura Ace 10 equipped bike into us with perfectly good kit but a free hub that is shot, he's looking at a big bill just in parts.


Fixing a Shimano freehub is hardly difficult, I don't know why you are trying to make it look like it's impossible. 

Your argument makes no sense. I had the freehub on my Shimano mountain bike replaced no problem.


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## ultimobici

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Fixing a Shimano freehub is hardly difficult, I don't know why you are trying to make it look like it's impossible.
> 
> Your argument makes no sense. I had the freehub on my Shimano mountain bike replaced no problem.


It's not the ease of replacement, it's the cost. Dura Ace has it be replaced as a unit, whereas the Campagnolo one can be serviced at far lower cost. DA 7900 will set you back £150 with no option to fix the mechanism. Record/Shamal/Bora will cost £2.50 if it's just the spring, £69.99 if it's the freehub itself. 

Even at the bottom end it's still the same story. Shimano is a non serviceable part, Campagnolo is repairable. 

Broken single Sora sti? That'll be £160. Broken single Veloce ergo? Only £50. Chorus UT bearings stuffed - £22. 7900 bb - £40. SR bearings cost - £100 Sram Red GXP bb £185. 

Wear and tear items are consistently cheaper or longer lasting.


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## tvad

ultimobici said:


> It's not the ease of replacement, it's the cost. Dura Ace has it be replaced as a unit, whereas the Campagnolo one can be serviced at far lower cost.


This has always been a definite advantage of Campagnolo over Shimano. However, as the years have gone by and Shimano has dominated the market, it has become more difficult to find bike shops with the know-how to repair Campy components (shifters for example). It's not impossible, but it's harder than it was ten or fifteen years ago.


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## DrSmile

Campy has also gotten out of the _really_ small parts business. The new shifter parts are not sold in individual pieces anymore either.


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## tvad

DrSmile said:


> Campy has also gotten out of the _really_ small parts business. The new shifter parts are not sold in individual pieces anymore either.


That's true.


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## Oxtox

I've made it thru 5 road bikes and 45 years of riding without ever once being tempted to get a Campy group...


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## Fireform

Actually, I used to be a campy enthusiast back in the day. They make very good stuff. They're just not in a class of their own, as so many campy owners like to believe. 

I had a DA bb in my last bike with about 20k miles on it in rain and shine. When I stripped the frame down to sell it that bb was still tight and smooth as butter, so I sold it with the frame. I think I paid $38 for it. Are there hubs that roll smoother, longer and are more easily rebuilt than the Shimano cup and cone hubs? Maybe, but not from campy or SRAM.


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## ultimobici

Fireform said:


> Are there hubs that roll smoother, longer and are more easily rebuilt than the Shimano cup and cone hubs? Maybe, but not from campy or SRAM.


Record. Until recently DA needed come spanners. Removing the freehub still requires an Allen key to remove. Record simply requires a couple of Allen keys & a single cone spanner.


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## jtompilot

Well I see that a lot of people automatically think of racism. I like the Japanese along with everyone else in the world. My bad on poking fun at Shamano users. My cars and tv's come from Japan. We can and still do learn a lot form he Japanese.


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## Fireform

ultimobici said:


> Record. Until recently DA needed come spanners. Removing the freehub still requires an Allen key to remove. Record simply requires a couple of Allen keys & a single cone spanner.


I'm wrong again, I see. Only a professional shop would have sophisticated tools like cone spanners and allen keys.


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## PaxRomana

Oxtox said:


> I've made it thru 5 road bikes and 45 years of riding without ever once being tempted to get a Campy group...


Some people just drink Coors Lite all their lives. Gets you drunk just the same, I guess, but the journey's not as nice. IMO, of course.


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## ultimobici

Fireform said:


> I'm wrong again, I see. Only a professional shop would have sophisticated tools like cone spanners and allen keys.


Not what I was getting at. Both Shimano and Campagnolo have stuck with cup & cone hubs in the face of everyone else's use of cartridge bearings. This is what gives them that silky smooth feel and durability.

Dura Ace & Record are similar in their ease of disassembly & reassembly, with the exception that the freehub body needs a 14mm allen wrench that many people will not readily have. I was simply alluding to the fact that the Shimano set up is a little more of a faff to service and has the added annoyance of no user serviceability other than "Buy new freehub unit" if the freewheel mechanism is worn. I've seen it countless times and each time the conversation with the customer is painful. Try explaining that their £200 hub needs a £150 freehub body!


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## mikerp

tihsepa said:


> View attachment 289037


LOL, guess my crystal ball was working as I projected the state of the thread on post 8.


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## mikerp

PaxRomana said:


> For me:
> 
> 1. SuperRecord/Record/Chorus.
> 2. a kick in the nuts
> 3. DuraAce
> 4. Ultegra
> 5. Walking
> 
> *Not making list: Sram.


rep for making me laugh today.


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## PlatyPius

PaxRomana said:


> Some people just drink Coors Lite all their lives. Gets you drunk just the same, I guess, but the journey's not as nice. IMO, of course.


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PaxRomana again."


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## Oxtox

PaxRomana said:


> Some people just drink Coors Lite all their lives. Gets you drunk just the same, I guess, but the journey's not as nice. IMO, of course.


yeah, the Sun Tour Superbe Pro and DA stuff really sucked...but, it least it made the bikes functional.

while it must be cool to be cool, guess I'll never know.


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## tvad

Oxtox said:


> I've made it thru 5 road bikes and 45 years of riding without ever once being tempted to get a Campy group...


What's the purpose of this statement other than poking the hornets' nest to see if they attack? 



Oxtox said:


> yeah, the Sun Tour Superbe Pro and DA stuff really sucked...but, it least it made the bikes functional.
> 
> while it must be cool to be cool, guess I'll never know.


If you poke the nest, you have to be prepared to get stung without whining about it.


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## PaxRomana

Oxtox said:


> yeah, the Sun Tour Superbe Pro and DA stuff really sucked...but, it least it made the bikes functional.
> 
> while it must be cool to be cool, guess I'll never know.


Campy isn't "cool". It isn't "hip". It isn't "trendy". It's timeless. It's quirky sometimes, but the stuff works, and somehow they figured out how to make a shifter that doesn't feel like you're holding a cue ball. 

I really wanted to like DA 9000. I really did. But that shifter, in addition to being obscenely ugly, is enormous. I'm not Andre the Giant. I don't need his shifters.


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## charlox5

StabbyJoe89 said:


> Lol you're totally right. It was more for the sake of appeasing my neuroses of having the full groupsets listed =p. I've had experience with Shimano and SRAM but never Campy and this is the kind of input I'm looking for, thanks! How would you describe the feel of Campy shifting as opposed to the others?


Entirely subjective and subject to a million different environmental factors, but here's my experience:

Campagnolo: Chorus Shifters with Athena derailleurs/Centaur QS--Crisp, mechanical shifting, with distinctive mechanical feel. Better front shifting than SRAM or Shimano. 3 up 5 down shifting is awesome. Ergos are great. Even the red-headed stepchild QS centaur group is straightforward, responsive, same mechanical satisfaction, though without some of the functionality (similar to SRAMano 1 up 3 down) as Chorus
SRAM: Red shifters Force/Rival Derailleurs --Lightest. Most marginal front ring shifting. Doubletap is nice, fun working through the gears, bang bang bang. Ergos the worst of the 3, but not unlivable. 
Shimano: 5600 and 7800--Buttery shifting. I hate the flappy brake lever, I find it distracting when I'm trying to get on the binders. Ergos are well designed. Heavy. Non-rebuildable shifters are a drag, and seeing as 7800 cable end drop and other malfunctions, while not common, are common enough to necessitate replacement after a few years for an appreciable number of owners.


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## DrSmile

The cable end problem was 7900 not 7800. 09 Centaur allowed multiple up and downshifts.


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## charlox5

DrSmile said:


> The cable end problem was 7900 not 7800. 09 Centaur allowed multiple up and downshifts.


i've dealt with 2 sets of 7800 shifters that have had that problem. A friend's and a set that I owned. To be fair to shimano, these were both used shifters with some (not a ton, but some) miles, but it is what it is.


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## Pirx

PaxRomana said:


> Some people just drink Coors Lite all their lives. Gets you drunk just the same, I guess, but the journey's not as nice. IMO, of course.


Wait, you can get drunk on Coors Lite? Really? Who knew...


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## tvad

StabbyJoe89 said:


> I've had experience with Shimano and SRAM but never Campy and this is the kind of input I'm looking for, thanks! How would you describe the feel of Campy shifting as opposed to the others?


Life is short and trying new things makes it interesting. Unless analysis makes the process more enjoyable for you, why not throw caution to the wind and buy a Campy Chorus groupset and start riding it sooner rather than later? It's a low risk proposition.

Sign up for emails from TexasCyclery.com and wait for a 25% off Campy groupset sale. They come up every five days or so.


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## PaxRomana

Campy shifters feel really good to me. They're very ergonomic and the hoods feel as though they were made for my hands. It's a preference thing. I think Campy really thought out the design for comfort, not just function.

As far as pricing, you can get it cheap online, but frankly, give your local shop a chance too. They'll be able to help you dial it in, especially if you're not mechanically inclined. They may help you sell your old stuff and apply the proceeds towards the price (my lbs does that).


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## tvad

PaxRomana said:


> As far as pricing, you can get it cheap online, but frankly, give your local shop a chance too. They'll be able to help you dial it in, especially if you're not mechanically inclined. They may help you sell your old stuff and apply the proceeds towards the price (my lbs does that).


Excellent points. My LBS came very close to price matching an online seller, and it made going with the local shop a no brainer for the reasons you mentioned.


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## Dugger69

PaxRomana said:


> Campy isn't "cool". It isn't "hip". It isn't "trendy". It's timeless. It's quirky sometimes, but the stuff works, and somehow they figured out how to make a shifter that doesn't feel like you're holding a cue ball.


My own experience is admittedly somewhat limited. About five years ago, I decided to get back into bicycling as my primary mode of travelling around town. Since I hadn't ridden for 50+ years and didn't know if I'd stick with it, I decided to get a cheap bike (a Diamondback Allure that cost about $230 brand new). The Allure served my needs well for about four years, but it had a super-cheap bottom-of-the-line Shimano groupset that I always felt was a piece of crap. The shifting never went properly. Recently I purchased a slightly-used Bianchi Veloce bike, with (what else?) a Campy Veloce groupset. The shifting is incredibly better on the new bike; so, for whatever it's worth, I've had much better luck with Campy. But I don't think it's really fair to compare the two brands on that basis, since Campy doesn't do cheap, and the Veloce cost quite a bit more to begin with. Probably in the price ranges where all they all compete, all three companies (Campy, Shimano, and SRAM) produce very decent products; but Shimano seems willing to put its name on some really bad stuff at the low end, and that to me is sort of a turn-off. I don't think Campy would deliberately put its name on bad stuff for any reason. I also think that, if you want a groupset that isn't made in the far east, Campy is about your only choice.

There is one manufacturer that hasn't been mentioned: MicroShift (made in Taiwan). I've seen some good reviews of MicroShift's top-of-the-line Arsis groupset, but have yet to find anyone with personal experience of it. Has anyone tried the Arsis; and, if so, where would you rank it?


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## Fireform

This is such a perpetually pointless argument. The big 3 are all pretty much equally good. They're all race hardened and each have their own quirks that may be seen as advantages or drawbacks, depending on what you're used to. I personally have Shimano on two bikes and SRAM on my TT machine, and they all work great. My 7900 group has something like 60000 miles on it without a single mechanical failure of any kind, and I see no reason it can't go another 60k. But I don't doubt that a record or SR group could have served equally well.


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## mannymerc

HAHAHAHA got a laugh with all the comments, very funny, inevitably is hard to say this is better than that with the top groupset on the big three, personal preference plays a big part, HUGE, on deciding whats "the best", instead of saying whats the best, is better to say "what Works Best for me".

example, I had sram red on one bike and DA9000 On another, I thought Shimano was better so I switched the Sram red 22 for ultegra 6800, many of my teammates said that it was a downgrade, but I thought it was an upgrade, at the end of the day, I dont ride for any of them, I ride for me so I dont really care what they have to say about it, most people now days just go with the flow and buy what the mass influence is buying.


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## BikeLayne

I used Campy Record for about 30 years and thought it was an extremely durable system of components. However the shifting was cranky for the entire 30 years. I rode on a 42/52 up front and a 14/24 in back and later a 13/24 in back. However last year I had a Custom made frame built for me with Columbus Spirit OS tubing and decided to go with Shimano 105-10 speed. It works perfectly so far. Precise shifting and no issues at all. I like it very well. No experience with anything else. I will ride this bike for the rest of my life so I will find out how durable it is. I am sure it's going to be a fine system however.


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## mjduct

No right answer but I'll only give one:


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## BikeLayne

mjduct said:


> No right answer but I'll only give one:
> 
> View attachment 296630


 I like fishing. I was just in Missoula Montana and the entire time I was there I was wondering where the best fly fishing spots were. But I did not have time to look into it. I did hike the "M". Pretty steep hike for an old guy but it was fun. I am going back in August for about a week.


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## [email protected]

A bit late to this party but some good exchange going on here. I did a comprehensive evaluation for my blog of Campy, Shimano and SRAM's Tier 1 and 2 mechanical and electronic groupsets against a set of performance, design, quality/service and cost criteria. Separated out some of the fun stuff (e.g. fishing) and history going in. Lots coming out about whats happening and matters today. Worth considering in your decision on that next gruppo. Give me your feedback.


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## 195cranky

Let's see if I have this right...I can buy from a company that makes fishing tackle or from artisans and craftsmen who make beautiful, long lasting, serviceable, Italian designed, precise, gets better as it gets older, and truly awesome stuff that I have used since the early 80's. No brainer for me. Campy all the way. Campy the only way. 

Oh, I guess there is a third company out there but don't really need waste time looking. Found what I need and wanted years ago and have never been disappointed. Did I mention that it was Campy. Found it. Love it. Live it.

Seems like I have seen this debate on truck forums with the names of Ford, Chevy, and Dodge. Seems like we can argue out good, better, or best truck or bike bits. But hard to argue when there is no argument that Campy is bike best and as for truck the best is


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## Pirx

[email protected] said:


> I did a comprehensive evaluation for my blog of Campy, Shimano and SRAM's Tier 1 and 2 mechanical and electronic groupsets against a set of performance, design, quality/service and cost criteria.


Lots of speculation, half-truths, and non-truths in there (providing a link would have been nice, too). No real justification for your preference for Shimano, and bogus justifications for the alleged far superiority of electronic shifting. Example: You claim actual efficiency benefits of electronic shifting (as in, real power savings), even providing a link, but it turns out that nobody has shown such benefits. Oh, and I have found that in pretty much all cases where someone starts waffling about "rotational weight", that someone doesn't have the slightest clue of what he is talking about. You are no exception to this rule.

You should join me on a ride with my mechanical Campy group: Never a mis-shift, dropped chain, rubbing chain, undue noise, or anything of that sort, ever. No need for any sort of trimming, under any condition, either. And, in case somebody asks you, no, cables don't stretch continuously. When they're brand-new, yes, but after a few hundred miles you're done, pretty much forever. I haven't had to adjust my cable tensions for at least the last 10,000 miles or so. My guess is that you'll spend more time downloading firmware updates, and replacing worn-out batteries of your electronic group than I ever will adjusting things, or changing cables.


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## [email protected]

Pirx, I appreciate your feedback and respect your preference for and loyalty to Campagnolo and mechanical groupsets. I don't believe my review denigrates Campagnolo (or SRAM) or mechanical groupsets despite my not recommending them. 

In the review I look at all three companies that make complete groupsets and the electronic shifting technology that is an option today in addition to mechanical gruppos. I found that all of the groupsets perform well but that some perform better based on the performance criteria I used and the research, testing, discussion with other cyclists, shop staff and evaluation of other independent reviewers.

I also point out that design, quality/service and cost criteria need be considered in making a choice of which to buy. These recommendations are where I come out and I do explain why I recommend the 'best performer' and 'best value' but I also note that some people may see it differently and have clear preferences for one versus the other due to, for example, how the shifters feel in their hands or the proximity to qualified service mechanics.

I’m not sure what specifically you are referring to when you mention speculation, half-truths and the like. Rotational weight and static weight are clearly different; the former takes more energy to move the same amount of weight in the later form. Electronic shifting is indeed measurably more efficient as it automatically trims an off-center or inefficiently operating chain, reduces or eliminates the efficiency loss from the chain rubbing against the derailleur, eliminates the energy lost from the occasional chain dropping, and allows for the rider to more confidently and precisely and therefore more efficiently shift gears. These may not be issues for you but are for most.

You are right about cables stretching only in the first couple hundred miles. They do continue to be exposed to the elements, pick up road dirt and grime, and can fray over time, especially where they are attached to shifters and derailleurs. The mechanical derailleurs are also exposed to road and environmental elements that also contribute to their need to be adjusted periodically. That was my larger point and I’ve revised my review to make sure that comes across. Your experience of not needing derailleur adjustment or, I assume, cable replacement for over 10,000 miles is unusual in my experience and of those I’ve spoken with. As to the batteries used in electronic groupsets, they do need to be recharged every 1500-2000 miles or so, or slightly longer than the time the average chain should be replaced, but have an expected life that is well beyond the life of the mechanical parts of the groupset. As to firmware updates, I’m not aware of this being a regular occurrence or issue to date from either Campy or Shimano. (SRAM has not introduced an electronic groupset yet.)

You may also know that Campagnolo has been a big proponent of electronic shifting. They developed it for 20 years, have introduced it across to their top 4 lines all the way down to the second tier Athena and have already upgraded it to a V2. The pace of their introductions and upgrades – much quicker on the electronic side than on the mechanical one – suggests electronic groupsets is an area of focus for them. While Campy clearly states both electronic or mechanical gruppos are viable options and have no preference, you may notice that Campagnolo’s sponsored UCI world tour racers are on electronic sets, suggesting their preference. 

Feel free to share any other concerns or questions you have about my review. I welcome useful feedback. Thank you.


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## Pirx

[email protected] said:


> I found that all of the groupsets perform well but that some perform better based on the performance criteria I used and the research, testing, discussion with other cyclists, shop staff and evaluation of other independent reviewers.


Out of curiosity, what testing exactly have you done yourself, and how much of what you write is based on "stuff I read on the internet"?



[email protected] said:


> I’m not sure what specifically you are referring to when you mention speculation, half-truths and the like. Rotational weight and static weight are clearly different; the former takes more energy to move the same amount of weight in the later form.


That is pretty much nonsense. You claim you have an engineering degree? First of all, there is no such thing as "rotational weight", although there is something that an engineer would call "moment of inertia", or, in a pinch, "rotational _mass_". Second, the moment of inertia has _no effect_ while moving at constant speed, and only requires more energy during acceleration. Further, the differences between even halfway realistic, existing wheels for road bikes as far as acceleration is concerned are very, very small. As a consequence, for the vast majority of cyclists rotational mass is completely and utterly irrelevant. The only exception are active racers for whom fractions of a second in a final sprint make a difference.



[email protected] said:


> Electronic shifting is indeed measurably more efficient as it automatically trims an off-center or inefficiently operating chain, reduces or eliminates the efficiency loss from the chain rubbing against the derailleur, eliminates the energy lost from the occasional chain dropping, and allows for the rider to more confidently and precisely and therefore more efficiently shift gears. These may not be issues for you but are for most.


This is nothing but speculation. If you disagree, then show me the data. My chain doesn't "operate inefficiently", doesn't rub against the derailleur, and doesn't drop. And, no, these are non-issues for most just as they are for me. I have been leading a very fast group ride for half a decade now (bi-weekly during the season), with typically somewhere between one to two dozen riders. Across all of these rides and riders, I can count the number anyone has dropped a chain in all these years by the fingers of one hand. Nobody rides with chains rubbing or "operating inefficiently". Lately a couple of guys ride electronic groups. They are no faster than they were before.



[email protected] said:


> As to the batteries used in electronic groupsets, they do need to be recharged every 1500-2000 miles or so, or slightly longer than the time the average chain should be replaced,


Replacing a chain after less than 1500 miles is utterly ridiculous, in the vast majority of cases. I suppose it is possible to wear out a chain over that few miles, but you have to try really hard, riding through mud and rain a substantial fraction of your time, and not lubing it, ever. Most chains should last at least twice as long with decent maintenance and riding conditions.

As a final remark, I did read the article in your blog, so I'm not sure why you felt compelled to cut-and-paste extensive portions of it in your response.


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## [email protected]

It doesn’t look like I’m going to satisfy you even if I were to further address your questions. I’ll let my reviews and comments stand for themselves. Making this personal doesn’t advance the discussion.


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## Pirx

[email protected] said:


> It doesn’t look like I’m going to satisfy you even if I were to further address your questions. I’ll let my reviews and comments stand for themselves. Making this personal doesn’t advance the discussion.


There was nothing "personal" in my response. There was a question in there which I understand you decline to address, as well as a number of factual corrections, which I also understand you choose to ignore. Finally, I have asked you for data to back up your assertions, which you refuse to provide, I take it.

Have a nice day.


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## vic bastige

It should be noted that "bi-weekly" is every two weeks. Semi weekly being twice a week.

I just thought that would add to the accuracy that you both aspire to.


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## BikeLayne

Well I gave Campy a 30 year run and now I am using Shimano and I will get back in 29 more years and let you know how it's going. So far the Shimano 105 is a better performer then my old Campy Record stuff but over the next 29 years I will be able to make a determination on the durability. If everything is dead even at that time I probably would go with Shimano because they make fishing gear. It's hard to trust a company that does not support fishing. Also somebody said artisans were making Campy stuff and that does not sound good to me. I would rather a machine made the stuff as those Artisan types smoke a lot of weed.


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## headloss

[email protected] said:


> It doesn’t look like I’m going to satisfy you even if I were to further address your questions. I’ll let my reviews and comments stand for themselves. Making this personal doesn’t advance the discussion.


I'd like you to answer the questions too, specifically:
"Out of curiosity, what testing exactly have you done yourself, and how much of what you write is based on 'stuff I read on the internet?'"


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## Donn12

I never really had a strong preference and was fine with rival on my cervelo. I actually decided to put SRAM red on my new bike. Then I demoed a bike with campy super record. Game, set and match -over. I got eps for that bike and I am now putting campy on all my road bikes. I love the separate shifter buttons for up and down and the feel is incredible.


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## mannymerc

off topic but not, I was thinking this morning, how cool would it be if I can have a Dura Ace groupset with yaw actuation on the fron derailleur and multiple cog movement down with one move of the lever? not that Im complaining about my DA but it would be cool if it came all in one pkg.


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## Pirx

headloss said:


> I'd like you to answer the questions too, specifically:
> "Out of curiosity, what testing exactly have you done yourself, and how much of what you write is based on 'stuff I read on the internet?'"


Yep. His other source is probably some friendly mechanic at his LBS. That would explain why he believes he needs to replace his chain every 1000 miles, and his cassette after 3000. While I can see how that makes a ton of sense to his LBS, to any roadie who knows what s/he's doing, this is a "you got to be freakin' kidding me..."


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## DHerz

BikeLayne said:


> Well I gave Campy a 30 year run and now I am using Shimano and I will get back in 29 more years and let you know how it's going. So far the Shimano 105 is a better performer then my old Campy Record stuff but over the next 29 years I will be able to make a determination on the durability. If everything is dead even at that time I probably would go with Shimano because they make fishing gear. It's hard to trust a company that does not support fishing. Also somebody said artisans were making Campy stuff and that does not sound good to me. I would rather a machine made the stuff as those Artisan types smoke a lot of weed.


This :thumbsup:


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## 195cranky

Maybe, just maybe...by artisans I did not mean pot smoking hippie types. And is this racist or discriminatory for you to even think that way? 

Artisan, or in Italian artigiano - people, employees, craftsmen, skilled manual workers who practices a craft who over time and with ability may reach a expressive level of an artist. Artisan. Could be a long-term employee, or second generation employee, or third generation for a company that is rich in history, rich in heritage, and so ingrained into the culture and commerce of a small community that these same people may even care about what they do and what they make. As opposed to an assembly line worker who punches in and punches out and probably doesn't care if they are building a rear derailleur or a fishing reel.

Smaller companies, more boutique oriented, and maybe even a niche player can often produce a product that is revered and seen as a work of art. Possibly the difference between a Ford and say a Ferrari? I know what I would like to be driving on a winding empty road. Yep, a nice, fast, well built, well tuned machine with 11 speeds, EPS, and Italian craftsmanship that makes you smile when you hit the throttle and hear the exhaust. Of course, that exhaust was caused by a spicy Mexican dinner not by Italian pasta. Geez...


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## flatlander_48

[email protected] said:


> It doesn’t look like I’m going to satisfy you even if I were to further address your questions. I’ll let my reviews and comments stand for themselves. Making this personal doesn’t advance the discussion.


Please explain this passage:

_Your shifters, derailleurs, brake levers, brake calipers, cranks, front rings, junction box and wires should hold up fine over the life of a good groupset like those I’ve evaluated for this review, though if you take a fall and damage one of these, you may need to replace it. *Shimano seemed to be conscious of this when they designed their electronic derailleurs which somehow are supposed to get out-of-the-way if they sense contact.
*_
In the original release of EPS, the rear deraileur decoupled itself from the drive mechanism if the bike fell over on it. The purpose was to avoid damage to the drive mechanism. Also, in the case of a drive failure, you could move the rear deraileur by hand to effect a shift. The original release of Di2 didn't have anything like this capability as I understand. Has something changed in recent times?


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## flatlander_48

BikeLayne said:


> Well I gave Campy a 30 year run and now I am using Shimano and I will get back in 29 more years and let you know how it's going. * So far the Shimano 105 is a better performer then my old Campy Record stuff but over the next 29 years I will be able to make a determination on the durability.* If everything is dead even at that time I probably would go with Shimano because they make fishing gear. It's hard to trust a company that does not support fishing. Also somebody said artisans were making Campy stuff and that does not sound good to me. I would rather a machine made the stuff as those Artisan types smoke a lot of weed.


Sort of a pointless statement. It would be the same as saying that you 2014 Chevy gets better fuel mileage and has emissions performance than a 1984 Chevy. Have we learned nothing in 30 years? While it can be qualitatively correct, your statement has no meaning.


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## [email protected]

I see that this thread is getting a lot of views and there have been a few additional questions and comments in the weeks since I last checked in. Let me try to answer them respectfully.

Pirx, headloss – I describe how I do my reviews near the beginning of all of them. Immediately before the recommendations I write: “I’ve now spent many hours researching different groupsets, talking with product experts and experienced cyclists, pulling the nuggets out of expert reviews and user comments, riding different groupsets and trying to figure this all out and present it to you in a useful way.” As part of this process, I’ve ridden most of the groupsets in this review and yes, read ‘a lot of stuff on the internet’ including from people who post to this forum.

Pirx - You are right that what I described as ‘”rotational weight” is more accurately called “rotational mass.” I have modified that label in my review. We’ll just have to agree to disagree about some of its effects. At constant speed, no effect – agreed. While accelerating or going up hills – noticeable effect. While weekend riders won’t notice, real cycling enthusiasts as I describe them in my reviews will and typically ride deeper rimmed, heavier wheels for all their aero benefits when they ride flat terrain and ride lighter, mid depth or shallow rims if they ride hillier routes (>5% grades) or do the occasional club ride/race where they need to be able to accelerate in/out of turns or to keep up with accelerations in the bunch. The pros, who ride bikes mandated to be the same (minimum) weight, switch from heavy deep dish rims on pan flat and TT stages to mid-depth ones on rolling ones to lighter, shallow rim wheels for mountain climbs. This is why.

Pirx - Regarding drive train efficiency, I provide a link in my review (here) that summarizes a number of studies where cadence, gearing and power were tightly controlled and efficiencies under different conditions that create frictional losses were measured. These situations included different gear combinations, cross chaining, different chain tension, the effects of chain cleaning and lubrication and the like. The variance in each of these situations is small (1-2 watt) in its own right; together they can add up. Off-center chains from imprecisely tuned derailleurs, chain rub during shifts and cross chaining are real facts of frictional life for many cycling enthusiasts (though it sounds like your riding group doesn’t have these issues). Electronic shifting reduces many of the frictional losses that the rest of us experience with mechanical gruppos and makes even the most experienced cyclists (read Peloton Magazine’s Jered Gruber quote in my review) more comfortable shifting more frequently to get the best gearing and drivetrain efficiency.

Finally, chain wear is indeed a function of what conditions you ride in, how well you clean and lube your chain, and your personal view about whether you change your chain when it’s beginning to be out of spec or when it’s shifting poorly on your bike. This is a somewhat religious debate, fortunately not as bad as Campy vs. Shimano , and there’s probably no benefit in recommending a mileage guide, other than to get a debate started. I’ve removed that bit from my review; everyone can decide for themselves. And no, while I do talk to friends who are LBS mechanics, I decide when it’s time to change my chain.

Flatlander_48 – Both the 9070 and 6870 Di2 rear derailleurs have what Shimano calls “automatic crash protection.” The Park Tool installation guide (here) describes how it works as follows: “During an impact, the connection between the solenoid and the parallelogram opens, and the rear derailleur will no longer operate. This is designed to protect the system, for example, when the bicycle falls over.” I’m told the Dura-Ace Di2 had this feature in its first release; not sure when the Ultegra Di2 adopted it but both have it now.

I’ll refer you to my review for the complete context of my comments and evaluations of top tier groupsets. I’ll be happy to answer any constructive questions if you leave a comment at the bottom of that review. Have a good day gentlemen. Steve.


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## mikerp

Ride more blog less. You have way to much time to post dissertation response here and blog, unless of course you are doing it for money (which is my guess).


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## flatlander_48

[email protected] said:


> Flatlander_48 – Both the 9070 and 6870 Di2 rear derailleurs have what Shimano calls “automatic crash protection.” The Park Tool installation guide (here) describes how it works as follows: “During an impact, the connection between the solenoid and the parallelogram opens, and the rear derailleur will no longer operate. This is designed to protect the system, for example, when the bicycle falls over.” I’m told the Dura-Ace Di2 had this feature in its first release; not sure when the Ultegra Di2 adopted it but both have it now.


I don't believe the first iteration of Dura-Ace Di2 had this as I pointed out the Campagnolo a number of times early on with no counter arguement. A few times I asked people specifically and they said no.

However, you didn't respond to the other part. I mentioned the ability to effect a rear derailleur shift by moving the mechanism manually. Will any of the Di2 variants do that?


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## [email protected]

Just finished a 50 mile ride, thanks. I'm getting plenty of riding in. And lets see, I've posted less than 10 times to this forum; looks like you're closing in on a couple thousand. Who is spending too much time here? You certainly not obliged to read anything I write. My response was long because I was asked a lot of questions that didn't have simple answers. Finally, do you think I'd spend any time responding to some of these messages if I were doing it for money?


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## [email protected]

I don't know about being able to mechanically shift the RD. I'll guess not since its an electronic unit but a Shimano rep can probably answer your question. The automatic crash protection is designed in part to prevent the need for this.


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## headloss

What a review looks like when written by someone who is riding as opposed to someone who gets hearsay from web forums...

Battle Royal: Super Record vs. Dura-Ace vs. Red | RKP
Battle Royal, Part II: Shimano Dura-Ace | RKP
Battle Royal, Part III: Campagnolo Super-Record | RKP

A good review requires trying out the equipment, not just reading articles online and basing an opinion around that.

btw, asking readers to click on your links in order to generate revenue for your site... that's doing it for money. Perhaps mikerp should have said you are doing it for "web traffic" instead. 

That's not to criticize your website, it is what it is... a comparison that lacks a healthy amount of physical comparison and/or objective testing. That doesn't mean that it lacks some good info, it's just recompiled info from various sources. It could very well be useful to someone, so I applaud you for putting it together. Just don't say that it is something that it is not. If you actually tested 12 different group sets and formed your own opinion and wrote about it, we wouldn't even be having this disagreement. 

The fact that you only have five posts doesn't imply that you are out riding your bike more than the rest of us, it implies that the only reason you are on this site is to advertise for your own site; it's a slightly more creative form of spam...

Anyways, no need to be defensive. People are pushy around here. If you are going to show up and self-promote, expect a little push-back, it's par for the course.


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## [email protected]

Headloss, you sound like a reasonable guy. I said I check in with the forums - mostly to find out what issues and questions riders have about certain gear - rather than base my reviews on what I read in them. As I described earlier, my reviews are based on a combination of things including my own experience and that of others. If I based my reviews only on my own experience, they would be just another person's view and there's a ton of that out there already - both good and bad. I wouldn't add a whole lot new to the discussion just doing that. I'd also lose out on the benefit of what others have experienced. This isn't an academic or money making endeavor. It's the process many people go through when they buy new stuff - getting a lot of different opinions, testing out things themselves and then deciding. I'm lucky enough to have relationships with other riders and LBSs that allow me to learn and try out gear. And I find the time to learn what others have experienced in part by drawing from credible reviews on the web. I haven't said otherwise. I also talk to some of the companies to understand and clarify things when necessary. And then I try to figure out where people can buy the gear at a good price with good service. 

So I do try to take a more comprehensive approach to what most cycling enthusiasts do when they go about buying new gear. I'm just trying to improve the process for most people who don't have the time. It's a different approach than the 'here's my view on a specific product' that most take. It's not perfect and I've gotten a lot of feedback from this forum about it including the value of spending more miles testing gear.

I really dig Patrick Kelly and RKP. He does some great reviews but as his tagline - "the soul of cycling" - says, it's really about how he and his co-writers feel. It's not an analytical approach to testing and reviewing the way, say DC Rainmaker is. In the RKP reviews you cited, Patrick goes through a lot of history which is interesting but isn't relevant to how today's products perform, sets no criteria for his shootout and provides great anecdotes and personal views, for example how the shifters look and feel, about his experiences with the groupsets but makes few performance comparisons. Enjoyable to read but not very analytical. 

He, and many other reviewers do it as a job, have an advertising model and don't want to piss off their potential advertisers. At least Patrick sets out this tension between picking a winner and alienating a potential advertiser in his first post and is clear in this series and in other of his posts that he's not comfortable recommending winners. If I was inclined to buy Campy before reading his reviews, I would feel like I have a celebrity endorsement to go with it. If I didn't have a bias going in, I wouldn't be convinced after reading his posts. (And I'll bet if I recommended Campy, there would be a lot of backslapping and 'welcome to the club' responses rather than some of those I've received )

I don't have advertisers, reviewing isn't my job but I believe I have the facility and am building a process to pick winners.- though you certainly are free to disagree on that point. I'm new at this blogging thing and trying to make it better all the time. I came to this forum to share what I found about groupsets and get some reaction. I certainly have. But I'm not spamming. I shared my view and links to my site (after another poster did and asked me why I hadn't) because I though they might further a constructive discussion. But, to your point, I've now edited out the links to my site in any of the other places where I put them up. 

I hope that responds to your points and thanks for taking the time to make them. My clients are a lot tougher than this crowd. I welcome a constructive exchange. It benefits us all.


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## imhockey

old..but im looking it over...and this..well...LOL...awesome! thanks:

Quote Originally Posted by PaxRomana View Post
For me:

1. SuperRecord/Record/Chorus.
2. a kick in the nuts
3. DuraAce
4. Ultegra
5. Walking

*Not making list: Sram.


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## cxwrench

imhockey said:


> old..but im looking it over...and this..well...LOL...awesome! thanks:
> 
> Quote Originally Posted by PaxRomana View Post
> For me:
> 
> 1. SuperRecord/Record/Chorus.
> 2. a kick in the nuts
> 3. DuraAce
> 4. Ultegra
> 5. Walking
> 
> *Not making list: Sram.


Humorous, but it shows yet another Campy user that thinks just because their parts are either:
Made(partially) in Italy
More expensive
More expensive
Did I mention more...oh, yeah, I did.
That makes them better than everything else.


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## headloss

cxwrench said:


> Humorous, but it shows yet another Campy user that thinks just because their parts are either:
> Made(partially) in Italy
> More expensive
> More expensive
> Did I mention more...oh, yeah, I did.
> That makes them better than everything else.


It matches my Coach® Panniers...


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## Donn12

I have SR EPS on one bike and I like the feel and design of the shifters so much I am converting my CX bike and another road bike to campy. I have SRAM rival on another and I intended to get red on my newer bike but after I tried campy it was all over for sram. I really like the seperate shifters for up and down. the two bikes I am converting to campy are getting chorus shifters and athena everything else. It is a large commitment because it also required new wheels for the CX bike. most of this stuff was not anymore expensive than anything else and if I recall was made in romania? I bought everything from ribble.


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## alfaromeo1

One thing that I have noticed,is the the Shimano sti levers,you can fing some front end swing weight,as the shift mech. Is all in the lever,the seam and campagnolo,you do not feel it


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