# Dead 386i



## digiminiman (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm sad to report the death of my once wonderful Look 386i, which was less than 8 months old. 
Whilst climbing up a 4th cat climb when following "le Tour " (stage 8) I heard creaking from what I assumed to be the back wheel thinking that the spokes had lost some tension. Later inspection when cleaning the bike revealed a crack behind the head tube.

When I returned it to my LBS he revealed he had had three similar failures in the last couple of months. He is now no longer going to stock Look frames and my warranty replacement is due to be a de Rosa Avant. Hopefully I'll have better luck with that.


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## Tino Chiappelli (Apr 25, 2005)

Digiminiman, this very well may be a warranty that Look will gladly take care of if you give them the opportunity. Are you in the US? If so, what shop are you working with? If not, you may want to contact Look directly & give them the chance to make it right with you.

Thanks,
Tino


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

The failure is probably due to the fact that they are not made in France anymore.


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

all current look frames are made where? (amazing since the price is high)


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

how did you get a replacement of derosa when you were riding a look frame?


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Didn't they stop making the 386i several years ago? How is it that yours is only 8 months old?


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*welcome to Tunisia*

*Most* if not all Look frames are made in Tunisia (there was a little story on Look 595 recently in cyclingnews.com). They are painted and put together for sale in France but the actual frames are from Tunisia. I do not know if this is the reason for your problem but it would be the #1 suspect in my mind too. What is even more sad is that Look frames are still super expensive even though made in the part of the world where labour is very cheap. Nice fat profits to Look!

If you have not ever crashed your bike (and are the original owner) then this is clearly a warranty issue and if you get any hassles from Look then *look* (pun intended) elsewhere. Given that Look have been making carbon road frames as long or longer than anyone this sort of issue is *unforgivable*. The reality is that many Euro-expensive frames are now not made in Europe, the prices are the same (silly high) their profits are fatter due to lower labour costs and the quality is often worse. I have heard Look had quality problems early in Tunisia and it may be those problems still persist. Look and other frame makers should know that today in Internet Time bad news travels at speed of light. 

Consider yourself lucky, I guess, you could have discovered this in a far worse situation.

Good luck with replacement!


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## digiminiman (Sep 24, 2005)

The reason I am changing to De Rosa is simply that my LBS has had 4 failures in the last 2/3 months including his own 486, hence he is now no longer willing to stock Look frames. An Avant replacement was offered, I presume they are imported (into the UK) by the same distributor.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Would you post a picture of the failure? I'd like to see it. WHo was the dealer that had 4 similar failures?


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## Tino Chiappelli (Apr 25, 2005)

I'd be interested in seeing those pics too. Even though I wouldn't be able to help you out (with you being in the UK), it's still good to see the pics when these things happen. Just a little note regarding warranties (in the US), we have less than a 1% warranty rate. I don't consider that bad at all. 

Now regarding production, here's the skinny on that. A few years ago, Look built (literally, from the ground up) a state of the art production facility in Tunisia. It is a Look owned & operated facility & the workers who build there were all trained in France for an extended period of time (2 years). Many of the bikes now are built there, but not everything. And the QC is just as high as it was when everything was coming out of France. This facility allows Look to maintain pricing (where others may be experiencing a price hike) in a time when the $$/Euro exchange rate has been as volatile as we've possibly ever seen.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*1% may just be too bad a number IMHO*



Tino Chiappelli said:


> I'd be interested in seeing those pics too. Even though I wouldn't be able to help you out (with you being in the UK), it's still good to see the pics when these things happen. Just a little note regarding warranties (in the US), we have less than a 1% warranty rate. I don't consider that bad at all.
> 
> Now regarding production, here's the skinny on that. A few years ago, Look built (literally, from the ground up) a state of the art production facility in Tunisia. It is a Look owned & operated facility & the workers who build there were all trained in France for an extended period of time (2 years). Many of the bikes now are built there, but not everything. And the QC is just as high as it was when everything was coming out of France. This facility allows Look to maintain pricing (where others may be experiencing a price hike) in a time when the $$/Euro exchange rate has been as volatile as we've possibly ever seen.


Yes, I see. It is rather sad, IMO.

FWIW ramblings below. 

I am not in the cycling industry so I can only go by what I read in this forum and also Trek (I own a 2005 Madone) and Specialized forums (I used to own 2005 Roubax carbon, sadly it was stolen), as well as the general, frame/forks etc forums. I see more reported "warranty-like" issues here on Look forum than I see on Trek and Specialized forums *combined*. And those two brands sell far more carbon frame/forks that Look does. Trek complaints are typically about quality of surface finish rather than frame/fork crack issues. I sure have a few of those surface issues myself. Specialized problems seem to be the carbon seat-post related and are quite rare compared to what I read here. Granted this is more *anecdotal* evidence but it appears to me (a potential Look 5x5 frame/fork buyer!) that Look quality is below that of US and Taiwan made carbon frames of Trek and Specialized. Also, a 1% warranty claim rate on fork/frame/post may well be a terrible number, equivalent to a major car maker reporting that 1% of their car brakes fail. Let us face it - a frame or fork or post failure on a road bicycle often mean serius injury or some sort of disability or death. One in 100 Look frame or forks failing would not make me happy. I would expect one in 1000 perhaps, or even less. I do not know what Trek carbon or Specialized carbon frame/fork/post failure rate is but if it is anywhere near 1% I would stay away. Look how much negative coverage that crash of George Hincapie did in Paris-Roubaix race - and the badly dislocated shoulder injury too - and that failure was due to a previous crash, not a warranty or quality issue. But anti-Trek folks were quite happy to jump on Trek as "inferior" brand etc.

I sure hope Look folks read these forums and take all those Look owner issues as deadly serious issues (pun intended) - well beyond just replacing customers frame/fork. My current thinking based on what I have read is to avoid Look frames for my next purchase and look (!) elsewhere. Which is sad because I like Look.

End of ramblings. Stay Upright.


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## digiminiman (Sep 24, 2005)

Sadly I didn't have my camera available at the time, when I took it back to the shop he wrote it off within seconds of seeing it.
I wont name the shop but it is based in the West Midlands (UK) and he has given me years of good service so I accepted his recommendation of swapping from Look to De Rosa. As ACid Rider says you certainly do hear about a lot of warranty replacement bikes on this Look forum now I can see why. 
As far as I was aware the Look factory where most of their frames are built is in Algeria not Tunisia and that there has been a "huge" increase in frame failures since production was swiched. A pity I wasn't privvy to that information 8 months ago.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

The factory is in Tunisia not Algeria

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2003/news/jun05

I don't mean to call you on the carpet but what proof do you have with the "huge" numbers of failures since production has switched.

I'm sorry that your 386 had problems but it is very possible that the frame was made in France and not Tunisia. LOOK moved production to Africa about the time the 386 was produced so it could have been made in either place. Your 'new" 386 purchased 8 months ago is actually a couple of years old.


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## the seamus (Apr 12, 2004)

Meaning no disrespect to the OP, but Sinclair Imports here in the US dropped De Rosa for the same reason you mention...too many warranty returns. Merak's and UD's all came back, and now Sinclair sells Ridley instead. Or at least that's the rumor. I can also show you a coworker's De Rosa King that has several cracks in it, and no crashes. Dude, it happens. 

To be honest I'm sure EVERY manufacturer has warranty issues. I mean, every car manufacturer does as well, it's the nature of making complex, quality goods. As a consumer you have the choice to freak out about this and go buy something else, and assume that your new purchase will now last an eternity, but you're kidding yourself. 

Maybe the dealer is getting a better deal on De Rosa's now. And when he/she sees a number of De Rosa returns, will they do the same thing?


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## Tino Chiappelli (Apr 25, 2005)

Acid,
You've misunderstood my comment about warranty return rates, or perhaps I could have been a bit more clear in my statement. When I speak of "less than 1% warranty return", that encompasses everything that we take back for returns here in the US (I cannot speak for the Global numbers). 

That sub-1% is made up of *all* the frames we take back. From paint blemishes, finish issues, crash replacement (where the user crashed & damaged their bike), frames outside of their warranted period, frames that were obviously abused, and, yes, cracked frames. Paint/finish issues are the majority of our returns. When we do have a genuinely cracked/broken product, we take care of the issue. 

That number (of product failures) is the lowest of all our return reasons. Remember that for us, a warranty doesn't mean a product failure. It simply means that we have taken something back (for any reason).

It sounds like you may have had a bad experience in the past with a Look warranty. If that's the case, that's terrible. Care to explain what happened?


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## stevecaz (Feb 25, 2005)

Without intending to get into the middle of this, I first want to say that all products have failure rates. So no matter what there will always be a person who complains and thinks the product is bad based on their misfortunate experience. I'm sure we have all had this experience with products, but of course it hurts more when its a several thousand dollar item like a bike, TV, or car instead of a toaster. There are definitely companies with high failure rates to avoid, and those with low (but not zero) rates to buy from again even if you are one who happened to get a bad product. 
Compare Look's <1% rate to say the high end Sub-Zero refidgerator. Both cost thousands, but the Sub-Zero has a nearly 50% warranty/repair rate. A smart person would buy another Look (or get the warranty replacement) knowing the chance of another failure is highly unlikely. But a person who gets another Sub-Zero is just an ignorant fool. Lucky for Sub-zero their clients are not the type who research and read comsumer magazines. 

Tino's posts in this forum seem to me to indicate that Look USA really takes care of its customers, has a very low product problem rate, and cares about their reputation and know future growth is joined with public reputation and perception. It just solidifies my desire for a Look (I'm counting the days until after daycare). 

One more note Tino, Look USA needs to get the new website up and running soon. I'm sure its being worked on but the Veltec site is so bad that it just presents Look in a poor light.


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## Dick Rhee (Jun 15, 2005)

stevecaz said:


> One more note Tino, Look USA needs to get the new website up and running soon. I'm sure its being worked on but the Veltec site is so bad that it just presents Look in a poor light.


I second this. :idea: Hell, I'll even build it for you for some Look schwag!


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