# Economic way to use Campagnolo



## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm trying to find an economic way to continue using Campagnolo drivetrains on my commuting/shopping bike.

I have a 9 speed Mirage setup and the (rear) shifter is broken and needs to be replaced (or fixed) somehow.
One problem is that I "hate" the Powershift/Escape mechanism in the new "low end" systems, so it seems I'm stuck with buying at least Chorus shifters -- which is somehow overkill for a "cheap" bike.
I tried to find some "NOS" pre-Powershift levers but so far I only bought the wrong kind (Centaur QS -- but it turned out to have the Escape mechanism).

So I'm wondering what would be more economical: buying 10 or 11 speed shifters?
The 10 speed shifters need to be rebuild about once a year based on my usage (too much shifting...)
I'm wondering about the 11 speed shifters: would they hold up longer or do they have the same "problem"?
So: which is the better (long term) "investment"?

I know I also need to buy a matching rear derailleur.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Don't quite understand the hate for Powershift - especially for your use. I have an Athena 11 setup which i think is perfectly acceptable. No, it's not quite the same shifting but they work fine.

If you want low cost I'd just go Veloce 10-spd shifters and RD + cassette & chain of course. 

There's no "rebuilding" any more and hasn't been since 2008 model year for any of their shifters. Just new body assemblies.

Other than trolling ebay for overpriced older stuff, this is your only option.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm assuming you are talking about the older style Ergo with the g-spring that needs rebuilt? Or are you using powershift?

Most economical is current 10 speed. Unless you want to go the Campy11 Shimergo approach and run a ShimaNO drivetrain.


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

Yes, the version with the g-spring -- I had that replaced on various bikes rather often.

Maybe I can try to restate my question: are 11 speed shifters more "durable", i.e., less likely to need a replacement due to usage, than 10 speed shifters?

For example, it seems I can get Chorus 10 speed shifters and 11 speed shifters for about the same price: which one would "hold up" longer?

The drivetrain is pure Campagnolo (I have several bikes all of which use various Campagnolo versions) and I have a lot of wheels/cassettes etc for replacements if needed.


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

Well, people have different taste/preferences... it's just that mine is "no Powershift": I have an Athena 11 speed too and I used it a few times in group rides and I strongly dislike it -- so the bike will be relegated to the trainer again.

Current Veloce 10 speed is Powershift too, right?


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

You can buy a powershift set and exchange the body... about $100 for a set of veloce through ribble and the shifter body for Centaur is around $80. 

The newer shifters (ultrashift, ignoring powershift here) eliminated the g-springs, so I imagine that it would be a more durable design. I imagine that they were eliminated so that the shifters wouldn't require a rebuild. Will they last longer in use? I have no clue, you clearly go through g-springs at a much faster rate than I do on the older style shifter. I think it's going to come down to trying it out to see.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> You can buy a powershift set and exchange the body... about $100 for a set of veloce through ribble and the shifter body for Centaur is around $80.


They are the same body. Current Centaur is powershift too. You could do it with an older Ultrashift Centaur body I suppose, OP would want to change both bodies, so not quite as practical. 

OP in answer to your durability question, I believe the new design Ultrashift levers are substantially more durable than the old G Spring style. In fact In these past few years I don't ever recall someone going online to say they wore one out. 

So go all Chorus 11 then.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Campy 10-spd with sram derailleurs, works like a charm and cheap. Campy seems to have cheaper shifters but expensive rear derailleurs, sram and shimano seem the opposite with the shifters being the premium priced item. Also, you can then use shimano and sram cassettes and compatible wheels giving you more options.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

bikerector said:


> Campy 10-spd with sram derailleurs, works like a charm and cheap. Campy seems to have cheaper shifters but expensive rear derailleurs, sram and shimano seem the opposite with the shifters being the premium priced item. Also, you can then use shimano and sram cassettes and compatible wheels giving you more options.


OP is insisting on Ultrashift which only comes with 11-spd Chorus and up.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Got Time said:


> So I'm wondering what would be more economical: buying 10 or 11 speed shifters?
> The 10 speed shifters need to be rebuild about once a year based on my usage *(too much shifting...)*


I'll say. I ran a 2005 Centaur set up for well over 4000 miles without problems. It was still working fine when I replaced it with Chorus 11.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

bikerjulio said:


> OP is insisting on Ultrashift which only comes with 11-spd Chorus and up.


I thought OP just wanted one of them without the single push thumby button. I'm not fluent with ____shift nomenclature of campy as I can't remember which is which and what's the difference. I have 10-spd chorus with my sram/campy setup.


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## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

You can still find NOS 10 speed Ultra Shift levers around, need to look hard though. If you want the new style you want Veloce or Centaur 2010 Ultra Shift, IIRC. 2009 was a bit sucky, pre 2009 is the old g-spring style.

Like BikerJulio I think the new style shifters with the "detent disk" mechanism last much longer than the old "G-spring" mechanism. Not had to touch mine yet, I have many years and 10s of thousands of miles on them. Still shift like new.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

bikerector said:


> I thought OP just wanted one of them without the single push thumby button. I'm not fluent with ____shift nomenclature of campy as I can't remember which is which and what's the difference. I have 10-spd chorus with my sram/campy setup.


The problem with the OP's setup is that he has been breaking his shifters (last generation, with g-springs) and wants something more durable. The thread title is a bit misleading.



CheapSkate said:


> You can still find NOS 10 speed Ultra Shift levers around, need to look hard though. If you want the new style you want Veloce or Centaur 2010 Ultra Shift, IIRC. 2009 was a bit sucky, pre 2009 is the old g-spring style.


No, they are gone. That's not to say that one may not pop up on ebay at some point, but you won't find one NOS online (maybe calling around, but nothing listed). The last stash that I know of was velomine and they ran out over a year ago.


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## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

headloss said:


> No, they are gone. That's not to say that one may not pop up on ebay at some point, but you won't find one NOS online


Yeah fair enough, I spoke without checking. I added one to my stash early 2013, sounds like you have much more recent info than me.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

And then there is imminent future aka 2015 with soon to be revised Campy gear. The plot thickens on a number of levels and in fact I am waiting for the new stuff to compare to current Chorus 11s pricing if current Campy gets reduced in price to sell it out.

What does the crystal ball say about 2015? Some things are known and others aren't.
It looks...looks only like Campy may revive Ultrashift for 10s Centaur and keep Powershift for Veloce 10s. This is based upon appearance only....new Veloce shifters get the same EPS style button as Athena 11s Powershift and yet Centaur keeps the current level side button. Only reason to differentiate the button type is because a strategic decision was made to upgrade Centaur to Ultrashift circa 2010 to increase demand for Centaur 10s over Veloce with EPS style button.

Athena stays carry over Powershift albeit with EPS side button which doesn't have the throw for multiple shifts aka Veloce 10s.

The other unanswered question is...will Athena 11s and Centaur/Veloce 10s adapt the new long lever front derailleur with revised pull ratio resulting in lower shift effort. Info on this is unpublished at this time. I am presuming that 10s Centaur/Veloce will not have the revised rear dearailleur with increase chain wrap a la Record/Chorus. Real question is...will Athena have the revised front and rear derailleur only lower cost alloy materials and my guess is because Athena is 11s it will get the new derailleurs with revised pull ratios but 10s will not get new derailleurs...only a guess.

As to conversation of the merit of Powershift versus Ultrashift...OP...keep in mind every other mechanical groupset sold does not have the capability for multiple shift down the cassette in back like Ultrashift. What the means is...as good as that feature is and I do like it and use it, other companies don't use it and this is strategic...they don't see the value. But other companies do see value in shifting up the cassette with multiple shifting and Powershift does this just fine. Personally I would still take Powershift any day of the week compared to Shimano Dura Ace 9000 I just stripped off my bike because I hated the ergonomics of the levers..they are awful compared to the refined feel of Campy shifters with softer radii, more compliant hoods and overall better shape and this is really independent of which shift method is preferred, button shift versus brake lever although I do prefer the simplicity of the side button.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> It looks...looks only like Campy may revive Ultrashift for 10s Centaur and keep Powershift for Veloce 10s. This is based upon appearance only....new Veloce shifters get the same EPS style button as Athena 11s Powershift and yet Centaur keeps the current level side button.


Interesting observation. I take it you've seen a picture? I've still got a lot of other 10-speed stuff so this might prolong it's life.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

I was under the impression that there wasn't going to be a 2015 version of Centaur at all.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I don't see any mention in the press of 2015 Centaur, although Veloce gets some.

Pity if it's dropped, although most bits were the same as Veloce, there were some useful upgrades, like cassettes.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

The issue that @cheapskate and @headloss raised was the availability of the older (but new shape I mean) Centaur Ultrashifts.

My looking at Ribble reveals that if someone_* really*_ wanted 10-speed Ultrashift levers it can be done by buying the bodies (L+R are available) for $68 each or $136 then buying a Veloce set for $104 that provides brake levers, hoods, clamps and a cable set. The total cost of $240 is virtually the same as Chorus shifters at $244, but for someone who already has 10-speed bits, or needs to buy some they are substantially cheaper than the 11-speed bits.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> The issue that @cheapskate and @headloss raised was the availability of the older (but new shape I mean) Centaur Ultrashifts.
> 
> My looking at Ribble reveals that if someone_* really*_ wanted 10-speed Ultrashift levers it can be done by buying the bodies (L+R are available) for $68 each or $136 then buying a Veloce set for $104 that provides brake levers, hoods, clamps and a cable set. The total cost of $240 is virtually the same as Chorus shifters at $244, but for someone who already has 10-speed bits, or needs to buy some they are substantially cheaper than the 11-speed bits.


In the press I read one statement saying Centaur is carryover, not discontinued for 2015. I thought I saw a pic but can't find it that shows the Centaur button is level like Record/Chorus but why wouldn't Campy retool it to look like Veloce below other than to make it UltraTorque to upsell from Veloce to Centaur?

As a footnote even though I currently ride 2010 Centaur 10s with Ultrashift with the crisp detent...I owned 2009 Campy which was awful by comparion....I am considering going with Athena 11s Powershift for 2015 and giving up Ultrashift. Reason is, I favor the new button shown below because it clears out the hood surface for a bit more room and this to me maybe worth not having the multiple dump down the cassette feature aka Ultrashift. Riding new DA, I quickly acclimated to rapid fire stairstep down the cassette at the base of a hill when I need long gearing.

Veloce below


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

bikerjulio said:


> Pity if it's dropped, although most bits were the same as Veloce, there were some useful upgrades, like cassettes.


Better FD as well... "z-shape" and "m-brace" which Veloce lacks (at least, until 2015?). Besides that, I think the shifters, crank & chainrings, brakes, and RD were already identical.


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## gfk_velo (Jun 17, 2013)

roadworthy said:


> And then there is imminent future aka 2015 with soon to be revised Campy gear. The plot thickens on a number of levels and in fact I am waiting for the new stuff to compare to current Chorus 11s pricing if current Campy gets reduced in price to sell it out.
> 
> What does the crystal ball say about 2015? Some things are known and others aren't.
> It looks...looks only like Campy may revive Ultrashift for 10s Centaur and keep Powershift for Veloce 10s. This is based upon appearance only....new Veloce shifters get the same EPS style button as Athena 11s Powershift and yet Centaur keeps the current level side button. Only reason to differentiate the button type is because a strategic decision was made to upgrade Centaur to Ultrashift circa 2010 to increase demand for Centaur 10s over Veloce with EPS style button.
> ...


Several things here ...

Gottime - you say the rear shift is "broken" - is that rear derailleur or shift lever? A 10s Rd will work fine with the 9s levers, the lever, if it's G-Spring type can be serviced at relatively low cost.

It is possible if you want to go for the new shape shifters to go UltraShift 10s - buy 11s shifters, send them to us, we'll swap the clutches for 10s (as were supplied in year 1 of UltraShift) and hang onto the 11s items and just charge you the fee for the swap, or send you back the 11s parts as well so you have them available if you want to go up to 11s in the future, and charge you the 10s clutches.

For 2015, Veloce stays Powershift. Centaur is also currently PS, nothing new planned there for MY2015.

Athena stays substantially the same in 2015, the big changes are all in CH, RE and SR.

Changes for 2015 have been widely trailed in the cycling press.


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

``the (rear) shifter is broken'' by which I mean the internals in the Ergopower control, the rear derailleur is fine.
"relatively low cost": last time I paid $92...

Anyway, I looked through my "stuff" and found some 9 speed Chorus shifters but haven't checked yet whether they actually work.
I also found three 10 speed rear derailleurs (hmm, seems I'm hoarding some stuff...), so if the shifters don't work, I'll simply buy 10 speed Chorus shifters (still available at some sites).

Thanks for all the comments, this has been very helpful.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

gfk_velo said:


> Centaur is also currently PS, nothing new planned there for MY2015.
> 
> Athena stays substantially the same in 2015, the big changes are all in CH, RE and SR.
> 
> Changes for 2015 have been widely trailed in the cycling press.


Odd. You say that Centaur is carryover i.e. Powershift and yet it doesn't have the new and improved lower profile Powershift aka EPS style button. Can you speculate why Campy would release the new button for Veloce and not for Centaur if they have identical Powershift internal hardware?

Second thing you mention is significant. You say essentially Athena 11s is unchanged for 2015. Well they did change the side button to be the same as new Veloce which is also Powershift....but you established that they didn't retool the front derailleur or the rear derailleur like they did with Record and Chorus and that means 2015 Athena has the same pull ratio and derailleur designs as current Campy 11s. That is a significant announcement and that wasn't clear by the press announcements.

Since no doubt the new trim function, great chain wrap, reduced front derailleur effort etc are going make a big difference, 2015 Athena better be priced right otherwise, there aren't going to be many takers...most will opt for Chorus because of all the major improvements. So this is a departure for Campy. Previously, with exception of Powershift versus Ultrashift, Athena was functionally identical to Chorus and Record...not any more which is significant when choosing which 11s groupset.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

No sign of the Campy triple stuff on their website... to be continued? discontinued? Campy sure likes to keep us on the edge.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

For @ roadworthy's benefit I see that 2015 Centaur along with everything else is now up on the website Centaur Ergopower controls - Components Campagnolo showing the current thumb button and powershift.

Agree that it's a little odd.

edit

The site is not up to date it looks like. I clicked on "2015 groupsets" here Campagnolo Official website only to see the current Veloce, not the "new" 2015 one.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> For @ roadworthy's benefit I see that 2015 Centaur along with everything else is now up on the website Centaur Ergopower controls - Components Campagnolo showing the current thumb button and powershift.
> 
> Agree that it's a little odd.
> 
> ...


Thanks bj. Quite peculiar that the more flush button wouldn't make its way to Centaur like it did with Veloce as both are Powershift apparently. I know the side button doesn't work with Ultrashift because it doesn't have the travel and why I thought Campy might have sweetened Centaur to Ultrashift...particularly to make Centaur more attractive to those considering Ultegra and Force...both being 11s.


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## gfk_velo (Jun 17, 2013)

roadworthy said:


> Odd. You say that Centaur is carryover i.e. Powershift and yet it doesn't have the new and improved lower profile Powershift aka EPS style button. Can you speculate why Campy would release the new button for Veloce and not for Centaur if they have identical Powershift internal hardware?
> 
> Second thing you mention is significant. You say essentially Athena 11s is unchanged for 2015. Well they did change the side button to be the same as new Veloce which is also Powershift....but you established that they didn't retool the front derailleur or the rear derailleur like they did with Record and Chorus and that means 2015 Athena has the same pull ratio and derailleur designs as current Campy 11s. That is a significant announcement and that wasn't clear by the press announcements.
> 
> Since no doubt the new trim function, great chain wrap, reduced front derailleur effort etc are going make a big difference, 2015 Athena better be priced right otherwise, there aren't going to be many takers...most will opt for Chorus because of all the major improvements. So this is a departure for Campy. Previously, with exception of Powershift versus Ultrashift, Athena was functionally identical to Chorus and Record...not any more which is significant when choosing which 11s groupset.


Ummm, no, I picked my words very carefully in saying that there is "nothing new planned for 2015" - I am not at liberty to say what will happen vis-a-vis all the groups yet ...

Sorry, yes, the re-designed lever 3 goes to the Athena shifter, ditto Veloce - but there is no really significant change in Athena and such changes as there are, apart from that visually obvious one, I can't talk about yet ... there *are* changes but they don't allow compatibility with CHO, RE and SR shiting systems and in many respects I would not describe them as significant changes - more incremental improvement, in normal Campag fashion - the Athena shifting system remains basically un-revised for MY2015.

On the question of triple, it will be available in Athena 11s only for MY2015 - no Veloce T, no Centaur T.

Graeme


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

gfk_velo said:


> Ummm, no, I picked my words very carefully in saying that there is "nothing new planned for 2015" - I am not at liberty to say what will happen vis-a-vis all the groups yet ...
> 
> Sorry, yes, the re-designed lever 3 goes to the Athena shifter, ditto Veloce - but there is no really significant change in Athena and such changes as there are, apart from that visually obvious one, I can't talk about yet ... there *are* changes but they don't allow compatibility with CHO, RE and SR shiting systems and in many respects I would not describe them as significant changes - more incremental improvement, in normal Campag fashion - the Athena shifting system remains basically un-revised for MY2015.
> 
> ...


Graeme,
Why did you even post? You know what's coming but aren't at liberty to say. Why didn't you just say that?
The press announcements define forthcoming changes but not a lot of detail and you can't comment further.
Members of the forum here will wait until Campy releases the hardware and then it will be clear what's available. Meanwhile continue to choose your words carefully...we are all on the edge of our seat...lol.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

*Graeme for official Campy rep to the English speaking world*

Graeme, many of us I'm sure appreciate hearing from a Campy pro with the answers to all our questions. I wish more manufacturers would show up on the forums with a rep. The only others I can think of right now who do this are Ritchey Dave and Mavic Zack. I know you don't work for Campy, but you're the next best thing, and all we've got!

My current question is out of your area I know but - do you know when the website is going to be updated with the 2015 groups and catalog? Presently on the main page there is a link to "2015 groups" but the info is for 2014.


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