# QR skewers and horizontal dropouts.



## Guest (Dec 6, 2007)

Any thoughts?

I have steel track dropouts, and a regular hub with a hollow axle.

Can I get away with enclosed cam Shimano QR's, with steel nuts? I think I can torque them to 20 ft/lbs. Is that enough?


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

I've done it with SS, not FG... but others prob have and I'm sure it would work... would def use a chaintug tho


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you are the sort that believes in authority, Sheldon Brown thinks it's okay.

http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed-conversion.html#qr

Campy has been doing it on geared bikes since pretty much forever, and as you can choose a higher gearing / leverage on a gearie than you are likely to on a fixie, it makes perfect sense.

I wasn't willing to argue with either Tulio or Sheldon, so I use a QR. No worries. I've had it slip (a mm or two) once or twice, but definitely due to operator error, and not to any harm.


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## Fatnslow (Jul 17, 2002)

I'll tell you one thing...its one whole HELL of a lot easier than remembering to take a wrench with you.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*I gots 'em on both my FG's*

never had a problem, ever.

edit: never used a chaintug, either.


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## Hollywood (Jan 16, 2003)

I used a QR for a while with fwd dropouts. I went with a Surly Tuggnut on the drive-side just for peace of mind tho.

also:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=106918


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

Back in the day, we would put a 16t cog on a campy freewheel hub when the road season was over and secure it with a BB lockring. The QR worked just fine in Campy dropouts. Any other oldtimers do this.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

steelbikerider said:


> Back in the day, we would put a 16t cog on a campy freewheel hub when the road season was over and secure it with a BB lockring. The QR worked just fine in Campy dropouts. Any other oldtimers do this.



I've done that... was never really sure that it wouldn't slip (even w/blue loctite), so eventually got a real fixed and more peace of mind


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## markie (Jan 4, 2005)

I have a Rivendell Quickbeam. It came with the free/free rear wheel which has a quick release.

I suicide hubbed it (bottom bracket lockring and blue loctite) and have been using it with the quick release for a few months. It has slipped in the dropouts once. I tightened the QR down tighter afterward and it has been fine since. 

So all in all a similar experience to using bolt-ons for me.

No chaintugs for me.....


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## asterisk (Oct 21, 2003)

Ditto the Surly Tuggnut or some MKS Chain tugs. They'll ensure you don't get too much slippage.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Cheap fix, if needed.*

Had some slippage once because the serrations on my skewers and axle locknuts weren't deep and sharp enough. Two stainless steel serrated washers for M10 screw (v = 10.5 mm; u = 0.9 mm) fixed it. Mild pain in the butt though when slipping the wheel back into the dropouts.


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## Applesauce (Aug 4, 2007)

Yeah, it'll work just fine. I ran a Santa Cruz Chameleon SS with discs for a long, long time with just a QR. I raced it at a 24 hrs of Moab that way with a rigid fork and 2.7" tires front and rear, and I beat the living hell out of it. Anything that will stand up to that sort of abuse will be fine on the road...

The clamping force you can achieve with a good QR (e.g., Campy or Shimano, but that's about it) is not to be underestimated. I would definitely avoid putting any serrated washers in there, even with good hardened steel dropouts: the goal is to allow clamping forces to hold the wheel in place, not to allow serrations to chew deep gouges into your dropouts that, eventually, will limit your choices as to where you can place your wheel. If it slips, get some chain tugs.

Just as an aside, where are you getting the applied torque of a QR?


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2007)

Applesauce said:


> not to allow serrations to chew deep gouges into your dropouts that, eventually, will limit your choices as to where you can place your wheel.


Good point about the gouges.



Applesauce said:


> Just as an aside, where are you getting the applied torque of a QR?


Good question actually. My source may not be all that reliable, but I know various QR/skewer systems are rated to different torques. Some of the anti-theft ones are only good for 10 ft/lbs I think.

/need to investigate the torques more thoroughly.


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

Make sure to use an internal QR like a standard Shimano instead of an external cam like Salsa. The internals have much more clamping force.


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## ProsperityRed (Aug 21, 2007)

I know that a number of TT frames (cervelo makes one) have very short rear horizontal dropouts and use a QR eg:
http://www.cervelo.com/models/2008/fullsize/2008 P2SLY.jpg

...so its probably safe as long as the qr is tight enough


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

i heard if you're going to be stopping with your legs often, it could bend the skewer. just heresay but it's possible.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Applesauce said:


> I would definitely avoid putting any serrated washers in there, even with good hardened steel dropouts: the goal is to allow clamping forces to hold the wheel in place, not to allow serrations to chew deep gouges into your dropouts that, eventually, will limit your choices as to where you can place your wheel.


Serrations on a serrated washer serve the same purpose and leave the same marks than serrations on a QR nut and/or an axle locknut. Not sure I understand why washer serrations would mark a dropout any more than QR and axle nut serrations. In any case, serrated QR nuts, axle locknuts or washers will not "chew deep gouges into your dropouts," unless made from tungsten carbide or depleted uranium.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

wim said:


> Serrations on a serrated washer serve the same purpose and leave the same marks than serrations on a QR nut and/or an axle locknut. Not sure I understand why washer serrations would mark a dropout any more than QR and axle nut serrations. In any case, serrated QR nuts, axle locknuts or washers will not "chew deep gouges into your dropouts," unless made from tungsten carbide or depleted uranium.


Not exatly true I had the crummy Suzi hubs I was using in my steel Binachi track bike chew ruts in teh drops out right around where I rode gears for traing all the time it made swicth gears a real pain and eventually I had to repolish the drops out so that I did not havethe lock nuts sliding into thso grooves all the time.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Well, I believe you. But in 30 years of riding fixed in the winter and five years of track riding, I've never had anything chew up my dropouts. Could be my lack of power, of course. At any rate, let me reword my contention: washers don't chew up dropouts any worse than hubs.


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## thedips (Mar 26, 2007)

i think if you plan on skidding and messsing around with your fixed gear i wouldnt do it... otherwise sounds like it will work fine...


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## Applesauce (Aug 4, 2007)

ProsperityRed said:


> I know that a number of TT frames (cervelo makes one) have very short rear horizontal dropouts and use a QR eg...so its probably safe as long as the qr is tight enough


In theory, that has basically _always_ been true:

<img src='https://www.richardsachs.com/nuovorichiegallery/images/NR-48.jpg'>

I have exactly these dropouts on my race bike, and have never had my wheel slip or come popping out. (I do, however, have marks from both my axle faces and my skewer ends...)


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## Applesauce (Aug 4, 2007)

wim said:


> Serrations on a serrated washer serve the same purpose and leave the same marks than serrations on a QR nut and/or an axle locknut. Not sure I understand why washer serrations would mark a dropout any more than QR and axle nut serrations.


Ever looked at a good quality track hub? Dura-Ace, Record, Phil, etc.: while all are knurled, none have particularly pronounced serrations. And Phils, for instance, have nothing but a smooth stainless face under the outboard nut (see below). But knurling is a heck of a lot different than putting a serrated star washer in between the axle and or nut and dropout. A real trackie might change cogs/rings six or eight times in a warm up, practice, or race, and all those wheel changes will _certainly, eventually_ "chew deep gouges" in your dropouts, especially if they're made out of aluminum or cheap forged steel. See Brad Wiggins' frame, for example: if he had cheap hubs or star washers in there, they wouldn't last very long... Which it doesn't look like they're going to anyway, but you get the idea.

<img src='https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/wiggins_cavendish_track/mc_dl_sprocket.jpg'>



wim said:


> In any case, serrated QR nuts, axle locknuts or washers will not "chew deep gouges into your dropouts," unless made from tungsten carbide or depleted uranium.


Or if your dropouts are, like most (or a lot, at least) dropouts, made from mild steel? In other words, yes, in my practical experience, that's _exactly_ what they will do. Someone below mentioned the cheap Suzue hubs, I think... I have made mincemeat out of forged mild steel dropouts with the axle faces on those, and it _definitely_ both "chew[ed] deep gouges" and limited my choices of wheel placement, and none of the contact surfaces in question were made of depleted uranium (which wouldn't do much anyway, except give me ankle cancer by proximity).

I think I made the faces on these dropouts out of 604 stainless plate.

<img src='https://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v141/163/2/10217622/n10217622_36612889_1944.jpg'>

Whatever it was, it was ridiculously hard. So hard I was worried the axle was going to slip no matter what - which is obviously something of a testament to your deification of serrations, but whatever. I applied as high a torque as I could with a 6"-6mm hex wrench, and it never slipped. But the axle ends also never made even the slightest mark on the faces, on either side - which, given that the knurling on the Phil axle ends served basically no purpose (or it would have left indentations), makes a clear argument for clamping forces over serrations.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Applesauce said:


> Ever looked at a good quality track hub


Yes, I have. And I even went to the cold basement and made a photo of the axle nuts of one of my old good quality track hubs. The absence of knurls (I'm no longer calling them serrations!) on the outboard nut sort of surprised me, but I'm not sure if that's the original Campy nut or a replacement. Whatever, the smooth washer face supports your clamping force point, and your other points are interesting and well taken.

On the other hand, let's not lose sight of the original issue—a quick release hub with track ends. That's not real trackie stuff, and I threw out the cheap washer fix with that in mind. Had someone asked about slipping axles during a match sprint, my reply would have been very different.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2007)

Wheel secured by Shimano XT QR, clamped very hard...no chain tugs...I like to live dangerously.  

Not ridden the bike yet...just built it up over this weekend.

All ready for its maiden commute tomorrow morning

If the wheel slips, and something nasty happens...I'll let you all know. :wink:

/my main concern is if the brakes are going to work down the steep hill before the first (very busy) roundabout.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2007)

the_rydster said:


> Wheel secured by Shimano XT QR, clamped very hard...no chain tugs...I like to live dangerously.
> 
> Not ridden the bike yet...just built it up over this weekend.
> 
> ...


Good news. I made it with no slippage.

I never really cranked down hard though.

I will be more brutal with it on the ride home tonight.


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## Applesauce (Aug 4, 2007)

the_rydster said:


> Good news. I made it with no slippage.
> 
> I never really cranked down hard though.
> 
> I will be more brutal with it on the ride home tonight.


Do you have a brake on this bike? Worst case scenario is that it slips and you throw your chain. (OK, _worst_ is actually that you throw your chain into your wheel.) If you have even one brake, find a clear-ish testing ground and give it hell. I don't think you'll have any problems.


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