# Is 13% grade steep?



## RyanM

I rode the infamous Manayunk Wall yesterday (the Philadelphia pro race does it each year). For the last big chunk of it my comp said was at 13% grade. It was pretty steep.

What %grade constitutes steep in cycling out of curiosity?


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## mohair_chair

Where steep begins will depend on the rider, but I think everyone would agree that 13% is steep. I feel that around 9% is where steep begins for me.


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## topflightpro

Yes, 13 percent is steep.

And it seems steeper when you are racing up it repeatedly.


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## Hank Stamper

In the real world just about anything over 5 'can' be steep if you're tired, trying to keep up with stronger riders, and/or it goes on long enough. Get near 10 and it's steep regardless of the riders condition.

But on the internet where a lot of people spin up most hills in 53 x 11 it's usually about 20% before you'd start getting unanimous agreement that something is steep.


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## Mel Erickson

13% is steep in anybodys book. 7% is generally considered pretty steep but the length of the climb has a big effect on relative steepness. A 10% climb for 50 yards would be steep but because it was fairly short it would not have the same effect as if it were a quarter mile. Average gradients for hors category climbs in the Tour de France often are in the 7% range with some steeper sections over several miles. So the answer is, it depends. Average grade, distance, elevation all affect the difficulty of a climb.


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## pmf

13% is definitely steep. I rode up that hill about 10 years ago after doing Pedal PA. Just keeps getting steeper and steeper. That race is a circuit -- meaning the riders go up that thing several times.


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## JCavilia

Mel Erickson said:


> 13% is steep in anybodys book. 7% is generally considered pretty steep but the length of the climb has a big effect on relative steepness. A 10% climb for 50 yards would be steep but because it was fairly short it would not have the same effect as if it were a quarter mile. Average gradients for hors category climbs in the Tour de France often are in the 7% range with some steeper sections over several miles. So the answer is, it depends. Average grade, distance, elevation all affect the difficulty of a climb.


Well put. Extreme example: The climb up the Haleakala volcano in Maui averages only 5%, and only gets a little steeper than that for a few short stretches. But it goes on for 38 miles with only a couple of little flats a few hundred feet long, and climbs 10,000 feet. Somewhere around the middle, it seemed pretty steep, and I was glad for that third chainring.

But 5% for a mile? That's big-ring stuff on a good day, even for an old fart like me.

13% is steep in anybody's book.


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## RyanM

So I just googled "The Manayunk Wall" and it actually hits 17% grade at one point (I think I was huffing and puffing so hard at this point I didn't look at my comp). 

I cant believe the pros can do this thing 10 times and also pedal over 100 miles for that race. It seems insane


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## GetReal

Hank Stamper said:


> In the real world just about anything over 5 'can' be steep if you're tired, trying to keep up with stronger riders, and/or it goes on long enough. Get near 10 and it's steep regardless of the riders condition.
> 
> But on the internet where a lot of people spin up most hills in 53 x 11 it's usually about 20% before you'd start getting unanimous agreement that something is steep.


Perfect! :thumbsup:


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## Mapei

Thirteen percent is steep. At seventeen percent, it starts becoming anaerobic torture.


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## DaveG

*coincidence*



pmf said:


> 13% is definitely steep. I rode up that hill about 10 years ago after doing Pedal PA. Just keeps getting steeper and steeper. That race is a circuit -- meaning the riders go up that thing several times.


I did the PedalPA Northern crossing in '97 and took the slight detour on the final day to do the Wall. Of course I had my touring bike with a 26x28 low gear so I could have climbed a vertical wall. Nonetheless it was still steep


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## robdamanii

Mapei said:


> Thirteen percent is steep. At seventeen percent, it starts becoming anaerobic torture.


And at 19.9% it becomes survival.


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## nOOky

13% ain't nothing compared to a constant headwind at 45 mph which whenever there is a wind thread most people say they regularly ride in


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## JoelS

Yeah, 13% is steep.


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## Blue CheeseHead

13% is steep. 17-20% becomes ridiculous. 20% has me in my 30-27 going about 4.5 mph.

Here is a little "hill" on Skaggs Springs in Sonoma County. It's about 32 miles into our ride where we have already done about 6,000 ft of climb. 15.2% average with 20+% pitches. It qualifies as ridiculous (and makes me happy to carry around a triple the rest of the year).


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## Fredke

RyanM said:


> I rode the infamous Manayunk Wall yesterday (the Philadelphia pro race does it each year). For the last big chunk of it my comp said was at 13% grade. It was pretty steep.
> 
> What %grade constitutes steep in cycling out of curiosity?


Depends on how long it is.

7% can be very steep if it just goes on and on. Lots of HC climbs in the Alps have 6%-8% average gradients.

13%? I live on top of a hill that's 12% from one side and 16% from the other. I ride up the 12% side pretty much every day on my fixie with a bag full of books and a U-lock on my back. I generally ride up the 16% side when I'm coming home from recreational and training rides. But it's a short hill, so I don't have to be tough to do it. If it were half a mile long, that would be a whole different story.


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## cda 455

RyanM said:


> I rode the infamous Manayunk Wall yesterday (the Philadelphia pro race does it each year). For the last big chunk of it my comp said was at 13% grade. It was pretty steep.
> 
> What %grade constitutes steep in cycling out of curiosity?


Anything beyond horizontal..... 

And to answer your question: I think it's not the % grade as much as it is length of said grade. The better shape you're in, the better you're able to handle steep grades. I have a friend who has driven up L'Alpe d'Huez in a compact car and was amazed at the 8% grade for approx. 8 miles of switch-backs. He was concerned that the car he was in wouldn't make it up the grade, let alone cyclists making the climb! I can probably handle 8% grade spinning 22/36 for 3 mile and that's it :lol: !











There's a 1/4 mile hill that connects to my neighborhood street. It's shaped like a fish hook with the bottom of the hill being the straight part of the hook and the curved part of the hook makes up a good 2/3rds of the rest of the hill. The last (Top) 1/3rd of the hill, according to Google Maps, is a 15% grade :eek6: . I've done the hill while seated every time I've ascended it. 

I've just rediscovered how to climb out of the saddle so it will be interesting the next time I ride home how I'll do on the 15% grade part of the hill out of the saddle.


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## F45

Looking at two of the climbs in my area I consider steep using Google Maps and it's elevation and ruler feature, they both come in right at 20%. I'm 150lbs and both climbs are out of the saddle, full-power efforts with my lowest gear, a 42x21.


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## cda 455

Blue CheeseHead said:


> 13% is steep. 17-20% becomes rediculous. 20% has me in my 30-27 going about 4.5 mph.
> 
> Here is a little "hill" on Skaggs Springs in Sonoma County. It's about 32 miles into our ride where we have already done about 6,000 ft of climb. 15.2% average with 20+% pitches. It qualifies as rediculous (and makes me happy to carry around a triple the rest of the year).


:eek6: :eek6:


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## AlanE

I rode the Manny a few years ago on my fixie (42-17). Yeah, it's steep. but it's fairly short. And I was with some buddies so there was no way in hell that I wasn't going to make it all the way up.


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## F45

Blue CheeseHead said:


> 13% is steep. 17-20% becomes rediculous. 20% has me in my 30-27 going about 4.5 mph.


ridiculous.


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## burgrat

AlanE said:


> I rode the Manny a few years ago on my fixie (42-17). Yeah, it's steep. but it's fairly short. And I was with some buddies so there was no way in hell that I wasn't going to make it all the way up.


That is impressive. I've driven up the Manayunk Wall and that is pretty darn steep. I couldn't do it on a 42x17. How long is it specifically, about 1/2 or 3/4 mile?


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## Mr. Versatile

13%? Yep, that's plenty steep.


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## orlin03

It's plenty steep, but there are steeper hills right around the corner from it! Head under Rt 76 and make the next right, going up past the Italian restaurant... but be prepared! You'll make a hard left and instantly be faced with 20% for a few feet, sucking the wind out of you if you're not ready.
That hill's part of one of my go-to hill-repeat routes around here:http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/7274615


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## BostonG

13% is absolutely steep. There is a hill near my place that averages 14% for over 1/4, but under 1/2 a mile. It's a good workout but after going up 2 times, my goose is very cooked. The pros are animals, as are some non pros who are just strong riders. 

I rode out to a place that has some hills with grades of 20% - first time up, it was hard to contain my huffing and puffing. 2nd time up I vommited. The people in the neighborhood love me


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## petalpower

I think so. I have a 14% that is about .6mile about 1 mile from my house which I ride pretty much every time I ride. Feels good when you hit it after a 4+ HR ride.


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## PissedOffCil

13% is steep but not excessive. Most climb in my area are 9% and over average with sections around 13% or over. I consider anything over 18% very steep but only encounter those on dirt roads or trails on my MTB.

There is a dirt road climb I did last week that went to 25% grade, the granny was welcome. This road was so steep its not maintained in the winter and there's a sign telling you that there is no support on that road and that you are adventuring at your own risk. The funny thing is that people actually live on those roads but they all have their personal snow plow...


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## pmf

Fredke said:


> . I ride up the 12% side pretty much every day on my fixie with a bag full of books and a U-lock on my back. I generally ride up the 16% side when I'm coming home from recreational and training rides. But it's a short hill, so I don't have to be tough to do it. If it were half a mile long, that would be a whole different story.


Pfffffft, that's nothing. I rode up the wall in my big ring.


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## Oldguybikingnewb

I'm old and fat. Anything above 5% gives me fits, and living in Western North Carolina, that includes my driveway, the sidewalk in front of my house, and the 1/2 of any ride I take.

Edit: On a more serious note, I ride my normal long ride, which has a 3 mile stretch that rises exaclty 900 feet. How would I calculate the % grade on that?
Bah, off to google. Found it, 5.7%, yup, that gasses me at the end of the 3 miles. See kids, this is what happens if you pick up biking in your mid 40's.


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## ridenfish39

Lincoln Gap VT was one of the toughest climbs I have ever been on. It is famed for having the steepest mile of paved road in the US at 20% to 24%.
There is a local road in Bucks Co I climb a lot that has a section that tops out at 27%.


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## robdamanii

ridenfish39 said:


> Lincoln Gap VT was one of the toughest climbs I have ever been on. It is famed for having the steepest mile of paved road in the US at 20% to 24%.
> There is a local road in Bucks Co I climb a lot that has a section that tops out at 27%.


I've heard of Lincoln Gap. I'm actually scared to try it.

We have a local "wall" that featured in Tour de Trump called Platte Clove Road/Devil's Kitchen. Max 22% and averages something like 16.5% for 1.5 miles. It's stupid steep.


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## JohnHenry

3% and the dry heaving begins


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## Blue CheeseHead

Going down it's not so bad.










Which leads to this (caution, road is steeper than it appears)


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## Blue CheeseHead

F45 said:


> ridiculous.


Doah. Brain phart.


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## RyanM

orlin03 said:


> It's plenty steep, but there are steeper hills right around the corner from it! Head under Rt 76 and make the next right, going up past the Italian restaurant... but be prepared! You'll make a hard left and instantly be faced with 20% for a few feet, sucking the wind out of you if you're not ready.
> That hill's part of one of my go-to hill-repeat routes around here:http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/7274615


I know exactly where this is and it is extremely steep. Will try it one of these days


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## dr4cats

*Depends...*

Alpe D'Huez climb is 8.5 mile long, 8.5% average grade and peak grade at 12.5%. And it is a *****; so to answer this question...it all depends how LONG the climb is.


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## Argentius

The Alpe is a pretty easy climb, as far as big mountains go in pro races. Riders will be together at many places, in larger groups. The fast riders might use their big rings, and nobody needs a cassette bigger than an 11-25.

The Angliru, that is steep... and whatever the heck that climb was they used in the Giro, the unpaved part? Those climbs shatter the field, top climbers use compacts, and the idea of a "group" is limited to the gruppetto, who might as well be walking.

But, there is a HUGE difference between a 10-to-15-KILOMETER long climb, and a 200-meter "wall," in the sense that any climb that takes less than 5 minutes to get over, the bigger, stronger riders could still be dominant.

Check out the climbs in Flanders, compared with the Grand Tours.





dr4cats said:


> Alpe D'Huez climb is 8.5 mile long, 8.5% average grade and peak grade at 12.5%. And it is a *****; so to answer this question...it all depends how LONG the climb is.


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## Bullvine

I ride up the wall from time to time. It hurts..

You ever do the steep stuff in the rain or in the winter when half way up the rear tire starts breaking loose that's very fun...


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## chuckice

31% is steep.









28% with cobbles is evil & steep.


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## Argentius

*Where*

Were those two taken? How was the slope determined?

They look brutal...



chuckice said:


> 31% is steep...


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## 55x11

Argentius said:


> Were those two taken? How was the slope determined?
> 
> They look brutal...


Looks like San Francisco to me. But amazingly enough, LA has steeper roads than the steepest in SF, and PA has the steepest road (longer than 0.1 miles) yet!


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## Argentius

Did the "Ronde PDX" non-ride-ride recently, and, it goes through a climb that has a max 31% (AVERAGE is like, 22%? But only 0.2 miles).

They don't bother to pave this steep, most of the time, I have no idea whose bright idea that was... 



55x11 said:


> Looks like San Francisco to me. But amazingly enough, LA has steeper roads than the steepest in SF, and PA has the steepest road (longer than 0.1 miles) yet!


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## 55x11

Argentius said:


> Did the "Ronde PDX" non-ride-ride recently, and, it goes through a climb that has a max 31% (AVERAGE is like, 22%? But only 0.2 miles).
> 
> They don't bother to pave this steep, most of the time, I have no idea whose bright idea that was...


Sounds very steep! 
Anything above 18-20% for even 0.1 miles is ridiculously steep in my opinion.

Canton Ave. in Pittsburgh, PA - 37%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_Avenue

Fargo St. in LA, listed between 32% and 35%, depending on the source:
http://www.lawheelmen.org/fargo.htm
http://www.pbase.com/coaster/fargo_street_2005

Also, nearby Eldred, Baxter and 28th Streets in LA
http://www.walkinginla.com/2004/Feb15/EldredSt.html


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## winstonw

9% and over is steep for most regular recreational riders. 
If one doesn't do hills regularly, 9% for 1km will be moderate to hard cycling. 

One way to view hills, is by your gear and cadence; or speed. 
On a roadie with 700c wheels, 50rpm in 34/25 gives 8.7kph or 5.4mph. 
If you struggle to maintain that, it's fair to say you are deep in anaerobic territory and will soon stop from exhaustion. 

Also, hills are given average gradients. A 2km 15% hill near me has sections that are 28%. 

I am a sports physiologist, and I'd caution anyone deconditioned, and everyone over 35 to respect hills. Very intense efforts on hills seriously stress cardiac muscle. This muscle is just as prone to inflammation and scarring from intense effort as skeletal muscle. As the inflammation settles, fibrotic scarring can occur in the heart muscle. It's called myocardial or cardiac fibrosis. Over time this can compromise electrical conductivity through the heart, and predispose to arrhythmias. This can then end intense exercise, require a pacemaker, or predispose to heart attack or stroke. 

There's a growing occurence of this in middle aged guys taking up cycling, in addition to sudden death. Build your intensity up smart everyone.


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## Argentius

"Incredibly steep"

VIDEO, cannot embed right now



55x11 said:


> Sounds very steep!
> Anything above 18-20% for even 0.1 miles is ridiculously steep in my opinion.
> 
> Canton Ave. in Pittsburgh, PA - 37%
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_Avenue
> 
> Fargo St. in LA, listed between 32% and 35%, depending on the source:
> http://www.lawheelmen.org/fargo.htm
> http://www.pbase.com/coaster/fargo_street_2005
> 
> Also, nearby Eldred, Baxter and 28th Streets in LA
> http://www.walkinginla.com/2004/Feb15/EldredSt.html


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## poff

Now this is steep (km - horizontal, m - vertical) . To translate into feet, you climb around 4,500ft in less than 5mi.

Average: 17.6 %

Length: 7.5 km

Height start: 198 m

Height top: 1515 m

Gradient: 1317 m


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## Terex

ridenfish39 said:


> Lincoln Gap VT was one of the toughest climbs I have ever been on. It is famed for having the steepest mile of paved road in the US at 20% to 24%.
> There is a local *road in Bucks Co I climb a lot that has a section that tops out at 27%.*


Uhlerstown Hill Road, across the river from Frenchtown, NJ? If there's a steeper hill in that area, I'm not familiar with it.


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## 55x11

poff said:


> Now this is steep (km - horizontal, m - vertical) . To translate into feet, you climb around 4,500ft in less than 5mi.
> 
> Average: 17.6 %
> 
> Length: 7.5 km
> 
> Height start: 198 m
> 
> Height top: 1515 m
> 
> Gradient: 1317 m


wow, this is worse than Zoncolan!


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## macming

The steepest climb I've done was on slick rock, in Moab Utah withnmy mountain bike. The trails are as steep as 30 degrees. Pretty crazy if you can't make it all the way up


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## Cygnus

agree that you need to include distance with grade. 

a speed bump can be pretty steep. 

i ride up a sustained 10.5% for about 1 mile to get home after every ride or commute. seems pretty steep to me, but ride-able every day if i don't attack.


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## Cni2i

I agree with those stating "it depends on how long" the climb is. 13% is steep, but not too bad IF the climb is relatively short IMO. But, it's those 5-7% climbs that last for miles that really get me.


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## ridenfish39

Terex said:


> Uhlerstown Hill Road, across the river from Frenchtown, NJ? If there's a steeper hill in that area, I'm not familiar with it.


LOL....that's it. I love the fact they close the road in the winter. I went up it once one April and there was still snow on the sides.

I'm sure you've done Fiddlers also then. There is so much good riding in Bucks and in NJ it's amazing. I also love doing the dirt roads. Lodi Hill is steep as hell and it's unpaved, the best of both worlds. I went up it on Sunday as part of the 110 miles I did.


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## coachstevo

I'd argue that 12 or so is the beginning of steep-- but it depends on how sustained (like others have said). Many many many roads run sections up to 10%...so they can't all be steep.
17% brutal....then there's this dang thing


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## orlin03

One of the harder climbs I've done is a 25% called Breakneck in Northwest Jersey. This particular time was the roughest because I was stupid enough to attempt it on a chilly day less than 10 minutes into my ride- big mistake. I was crawling at one point in my 39/25 and worried I would fall over! It hits about 20-25% at 600 ft and stays there for the rest of the climb, hitting 30% for just a few feet around one particular turn. There are steeper hills in the area, though, but I burnt myself out too early on this day (and pulled something in my back) and couldn't go ride them.


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## mohair_chair

dr4cats said:


> Alpe D'Huez climb is 8.5 mile long, 8.5% average grade and peak grade at 12.5%. And it is a *****; so to answer this question...it all depends how LONG the climb is.


I've done it a few times, and I didn't think it was that steep. The first few pitches are nasty. 11%, I think. Then it eases up to a fairly reasonable grade for most of the way. The last pitch into the town is the worst, which is in the 12% range.


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## Scot_Gore

I think this one's about 13%








Stillwater MN - Nature Valley Crit
It's steep


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## 55x11

winstonw said:


> 9% and over is steep for most regular recreational riders.
> If one doesn't do hills regularly, 9% for 1km will be moderate to hard cycling.
> 
> One way to view hills, is by your gear and cadence; or speed.
> On a roadie with 700c wheels, 50rpm in 34/25 gives 8.7kph or 5.4mph.
> If you struggle to maintain that, it's fair to say you are deep in anaerobic territory and will soon stop from exhaustion.
> 
> Also, hills are given average gradients. A 2km 15% hill near me has sections that are 28%.
> 
> I am a sports physiologist, and I'd caution anyone deconditioned, and everyone over 35 to respect hills. Very intense efforts on hills seriously stress cardiac muscle. This muscle is just as prone to inflammation and scarring from intense effort as skeletal muscle. As the inflammation settles, fibrotic scarring can occur in the heart muscle. It's called myocardial or cardiac fibrosis. Over time this can compromise electrical conductivity through the heart, and predispose to arrhythmias. This can then end intense exercise, require a pacemaker, or predispose to heart attack or stroke.
> 
> There's a growing occurence of this in middle aged guys taking up cycling, in addition to sudden death. Build your intensity up smart everyone.


If you struggle to maintain ANY pace at ANY incline (including flat roads) it indicates you will be unable to maintain the pace and will slow down due to getting into anaerobic territory. So what is the point?

Similarly, intense efforts (high intensity training on flat roads is equivalent to hills by the way - nothing special about incline, it's about aerobic output) leading to heart attack or stroke?

Perhaps - in untrained couch potato folks and people with pre-existing and largely genetic heart disorders. But for most of us who are active (even, gasp, those old-timers who are "over 35") the dangers of damaging our hearts from too many intense anaerobic efforts have been overstated and largely debunked. Yes, hearts do get "stressed" during superhuman marathon-type efforts, but even those effects are transient and disappear quite quickly. I think we should be more worried about eating that cheeseburger than climbing that hill.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/cardiac-fatigue.html


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## Oracle7775

Yes, yes it is.


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## chuckice

Argentius said:


> Were those two taken? How was the slope determined?
> 
> They look brutal...


San Francisco. Rise over run via many repeats. I don't even do the cobbled one anymore...the ruts are nasty at 3mph.


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## cda 455

cda 455 said:


> There's a 1/4 mile hill that connects to my neighborhood street. It's shaped like a fish hook with the bottom of the hill being the straight part of the hook and the curved part of the hook makes up a good 2/3rds of the rest of the hill. The last (Top) 1/3rd of the hill, according to Google Maps, is a 15% grade :eek6: . I've done the hill while seated every time I've ascended it.
> 
> I've just rediscovered how to climb out of the saddle so it will be interesting the next time I ride home how I'll do on the 15% grade part of the hill out of the saddle.


Well, I did the hill today out of the saddle!

Up until now I've been using 22-28 (MTB with road tires) gears spinning at about 60 to 70 RPM's. Today I used 42-15 gears and 'flew' up the hill  ! When I got to the top and turned onto my street, everything caught up to me; I was very winded but I recovered pretty fast.


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## SystemShock

Hank Stamper said:


> In the real world just about anything over 5% 'can' be steep if you're tired, trying to keep up with stronger riders, and/or it goes on long enough. Get near 10% and it's steep regardless of the riders condition.
> 
> *But on the internet where a lot of people spin up most hills in 53 x 11, it's usually about 20% before you'd start getting unanimous agreement that something is steep.*


Post of the Thread™_!_ :lol: :thumbsup: 

It's funny 'cuz it's true. 
.


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## AlanE

*Lodi Hill*



ridenfish39 said:


> LOL....that's it. I love the fact they close the road in the winter. I went up it once one April and there was still snow on the sides.
> 
> I'm sure you've done Fiddlers also then. There is so much good riding in Bucks and in NJ it's amazing. I also love doing the dirt roads. Lodi Hill is steep as hell and it's unpaved, the best of both worlds. I went up it on Sunday as part of the 110 miles I did.


I ride a lot in that area, but I was unfamiliar with Lodi Hill. I found it on the map, as it turns out I've passed it several times while riding up Red Cliff. TopoUSA shows some sections as steep as 30%, so absent common sense and any other plans, off I went ito tackle it. The 30% figure was probably an over-statement, but it was definitely tough. I think Uhlerstown is steeper, but Lodi's dirt is probably an equalizing factor. And as luck would have it, midway up a car comes up the hill forcing me to pull over and unclip. Took a couple tries to clip back in and finish the climb.


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## Terex

AlanE said:


> I ride a lot in that area, but I was unfamiliar with Lodi Hill. I found it on the map, as it turns out I've passed it several times while riding up Red Cliff. TopoUSA shows some sections as steep as 30%, so absent common sense and any other plans, off I went ito tackle it. The 30% figure was probably an over-statement, but it was definitely tough. I think Uhlerstown is steeper, but Lodi's dirt is probably an equalizing factor. And as luck would have it, midway up a car comes up the hill forcing me to pull over and unclip. Took a couple tries to clip back in and finish the climb.


A great thread. A big part of climbing really steep stuff is technique and relaxation, which comes from experience. I've watched Alan glide up some really steep stuff on his fixie.

There's steep, then getting back to the 13% question, there's long and steep. For example, Godfrey Ridge Rd., or State Rt. 191, south of Stroudburg, PA, is a pretty constant 11-12%.

A couple of years ago, I did that 1000' climb over two miles in 17 min. 30 sec., so about 3,430 ft/hr (if you're talking VAM, or vertical ascent in meters per hour, about 1,045). For comparison, top pros can have VAMs approaching 1,800.

Oh, and riding at a high intensity on flat roads is not the same as climbing at a high intensity. Ask anyone who rides on flat roads all the time and then tries to do a really hilly ride... There is something "special" about hills. Use of slightly different muscle groups will gut a flatlander when he hits the hills.


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## TomsfriendinVT

What resources do you guys use in determing the % grade on a stretch of road?


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## NJcycler

orlin03 said:


> One of the harder climbs I've done is a 25% called Breakneck in Northwest Jersey.


Breakneck is just about a 1 mile climb not including Rt 515 to get up to it. The problem is the traffic on it. Not only do you have to deal with the crazy grade but the cars passing you. Have you ever gone down it? that is really scary. trying to keep your rear wheel from sliding out on those sharp turns and hope your brakes don't fail you. It is a pretty awesome climb.
Curtis Dr is much safer climb when it comes to traffic.


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## UniGeezer

How about 37% constant grade? I found a paved pathway that is 274 feet long and gains a whopping 102 feet! You can't traverse because the pathway is only about 3 feet wide. I thought I would try it on my 24" wheel, which is direct drive, 1:1. :yikes:

Extreme Unicycling - Super Steep Climb Challenge! - YouTube


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## cyclejim33

I did the kankamangus in new Hampshire, which averaged 9% for between 3-5 miles. That gave me a new respect for tour riders as I was about ready to strangle myself with 
my spare tube when I got to the top!


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## BostonG

Jennifer3 said:


> The steeper the grade the more power you have to put into the pedals


Thanks! Now I know what I've been doing wrong all these years. 

Now if I can only figure out what to do when I want to go faster. 

BTW, I love revived threads.


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## King Arthur

RyanM said:


> I rode the infamous Manayunk Wall yesterday (the Philadelphia pro race does it each year). For the last big chunk of it my comp said was at 13% grade. It was pretty steep.
> 
> What %grade constitutes steep in cycling out of curiosity?


13% is steep, and worthy of Hors category. In Albuquerque we have a section called the "fingers" which is in the foothills area. The worst grade is approximately 23% for about 30 feet. Lots of folks either got off the bike, finished te climb by walking, didn't even climb the hill and just watched in amazement.


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## mtor

RyanM said:


> I rode the infamous Manayunk Wall yesterday (the Philadelphia pro race does it each year). For the last big chunk of it my comp said was at 13% grade. It was pretty steep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What %grade constitutes steep in cycling out of curiosity?


13% is very steep


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## UniGeezer

King Arthur said:


> The worst grade is approximately 23% for about 30 feet.


Try 33% for 274 feet! 

Extreme Unicycling - Super Steep Climb Challenge! - YouTube


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## WaynefromOrlando

There is a triathlon in western Maryland that has a bit o' climbing including this gem of a strech called the Westernport Wall at 31%

http://www.savagemantri.org/Westernport_Wall.html

The site shows cyclists struggling up the climb, and more than a few right as they are tipping over to the shouts of onlookers and the "devils" encouragment.


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## The Human G-Nome

The Steepest Streets In San Francisco, For Real
1. Prentiss between Chapman and Powhattan (37% grade)
2. Nevada above Chapman (36% grade)
3. Baden above Mangels (34% grade) *
4. Ripley between Peralta and Alabama (31.5% grade)
5. Filbert between Hyde and Leavenworth (31.5% grade)
6. 22nd between Vicksburg and Church (31.5% grade)
7. 24th between Grand View and Fountain (30% grade)
8. Kearny above Broadway (30% grade) **
9. Holyoke between Karen and Woolsey (30% grade)
10. 25th above Grand View (30% grade)
11. Jones between Union and Filbert (29% grade)
12. Dwight above Goettingen (29% grade)
13. Folsom between Chapman and Powhattan (29% grade)

https://www.datapointed.net/media/2009/11/prentiss_big-520x346.jpg


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## cda 455

UniGeezer said:


> Try 33% for 274 feet!
> 
> Extreme Unicycling - Super Steep Climb Challenge! - YouTube




Funnay how it looks like you're holding on to your igneous rocks  !


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## El Scorcho

This is the local beast of a climb. It hits 18%+ two different times. You know it's steep because when the grades drop down to the 5% range you feel like you're going downhill. 

The views however are worth all the suffering. 

View attachment 268112


View attachment 268113


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## poff

Sonora pass


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## MercRidnMike

I'll agree with a lot of folks....generally speaking 13% is pretty steep, but length has a lot to do with it. I'm in a city with a pretty decent river valley...the main roads coming out of the valley are typically between 7 and 25% grades. Some hit 30% and are short, others top out at about 9% and grind at about 7% for a while.

The 30% puts me into 22:34 in the 37 lb mtb to sit and spin it and you feel your legs burning by the time you get to the top and it is the same with some of the 20%+ ones that are much longer.

Overall, though, steep depends on what you're used to


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## martinrjensen

That's funny. I'm actually reading this on my iphone while going up a 21% grade 2 mile long hill right now. I had to slow down to under 15 mph because the road was too bumpy to read the text though.


Hank Stamper said:


> In the real world just about anything over 5 'can' be steep if you're tired, trying to keep up with stronger riders, and/or it goes on long enough. Get near 10 and it's steep regardless of the riders condition.
> 
> But on the internet where a lot of people spin up most hills in 53 x 11 it's usually about 20% before you'd start getting unanimous agreement that something is steep.


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## UniGeezer

martinrjensen said:


> That's funny. I'm actually reading this on my iphone while going up a 21% grade 2 mile long hill right now. I had to slow down to under 15 mph because the road was too bumpy to read the text though.


 That gave me the best laugh of the day!


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## poff

OK to be fair, distance really matters. Here is Mortirolo, it is a byatch of a climb.


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## joshhan

There's a 12% grade on the Perkiomen Trail (gravel) in PA near Spring Mountain that I went up riding my hardtail mountain bike with my 6 year old son attached on a Trek tagalong that weighs a ton. I nearly collapsed after I reached the top. LOL. Bystanders were lucky I was too tired to smack them after joking that my son did all the work.


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## cyclesport45

*Mt. Washington, NH*

12% grade for 7.6 miles, Last 50 yards at 22%. No breaks, no level spots. Just an unrelenting 12%. If you want to join me, sign up for the race next August.


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## nolight

Yes 13% is steep.


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## tnvol123

It's steep to me..


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## robdamanii

13% is fun.


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## freighttraininguphill

deleted


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## Mr. Versatile

13% steep? Hell yeah!


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## 67caddy

A steady 13% is steep, but it is not overly steep. I can handle that OK in a 34x25. The real problem is that most hills don't stay at a constant gradient. We have one climb here that is just about 1/2 mile long and it average a 13% gradient. However it has one section that is a solid +20% and really short stretches of 30% (no switchbacks). It's the changing gradient that can make a hill very difficult, it is impossible to pick a single gear and set a tempo.


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## Oasisbill

The Angliru is steep! I call it the angry loo because it swallows you up like a big turd.... 24% sections.


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## bigV

I don't know. How long is a piece of string?


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## gyorgyigabor

Hello !
My just edited and uploaded video is just about such a climb. It's one of the toughest in the Alps and harder than Zoncolan or Angliru (based salite.ch or climbbybike.com):
Grosser Oscheniksee (2394 m): start 712 m, top 2394 m; last 10kms are ca. 13% steep, max 18-20%. I recorded it video (Full HD)

It's an epic, a killer, a monster !

I loved it !

Have pleasure with the video !






2 pics:

















Best regards, Gabor 
www.facebook.com/cycling.high


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## SystemShock

13% is pretty steep, unless you're one of those internet heroes who claims to be able to outclimb God. What's the debate?

/unsubscribes from thread


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## Upnorth

Steep is one thing but duration/length is another. Most can struggle up a short hill and recover. I did Mt. Lemmon last week and it was not as bad as I anticipated but I can say that a 25 mile long hill even if only 5% aver grade is a long way up!


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## Cni2i

Nice! Impressive, especially considering the bike you used with all that baggage. Bravo.


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## BikeLayne

I have been so tired that even downhill was to steep. But 13% is steep and it can be very hard if it's over enough distance. My Garmin 500 lags to much and the steepness function is of no use at all so I do not look at it.


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## Mandeville

Upnorth said:


> Steep is one thing but duration/length is another. Most can struggle up a short hill and recover. I did Mt. Lemmon last week and it was not as bad as I anticipated but I can say that a 25 mile long hill even if only 5% aver grade is a long way up!


Yes, I very much agree with that and I wouldn't even stretch it out as far as 25 miles to make that qualification. 

I also think that 13 percent is steep except to those that are legends in their own minds. Steepness for me when I'm biking is defined by the degree of grade combined with distance and the gears available to me. I consider 7 percent the starting point for steep on climbs that are a relatively steady grade and go three or four miles or more. In fact I believe that the average grade of the entire collective of climbs in the Tour de France is about 7 percent. On the other hand I would call 13 percent steep for just about any length of climb even a short one like say .3 of a mile.


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## Keoki

Green Lane which is the next block from the Wall is much harder as it's longer. Also, across the I76 bridge, there is a road called Righter's Mill Rd. This is IMO 10x harder than both.


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## ziscwg

gyorgyigabor said:


> Hello !
> My just edited and uploaded video is just about such a climb. It's one of the toughest in the Alps and harder than Zoncolan or Angliru (based salite.ch or climbbybike.com):
> Grosser Oscheniksee (2394 m): start 712 m, top 2394 m; last 10kms are ca. 13% steep, max 18-20%. I recorded it video (Full HD)
> 
> It's an epic, a killer, a monster !
> 
> I loved it !
> 
> 
> 2 pics:
> 
> View attachment 303778
> 
> 
> View attachment 303779
> 
> 
> Best regards, Gabor
> www.facebook.com/cycling.high


and you went up it with all that crap on your bike.........impressive.


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## ziscwg

Upnorth said:


> Steep is one thing but duration/length is another. Most can struggle up a short hill and recover. I did Mt. Lemmon last week and it was not as bad as I anticipated but I can say that a 25 mile long hill even if only 5% aver grade is a long way up!


That kind of climb gets to you mentally. You keep asking yourself "When the f*ck will i get there"


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## tvad

gyorgyigabor said:


> Hello !
> My just edited and uploaded video is just about such a climb. It's one of the toughest in the Alps and harder than Zoncolan or Angliru (based salite.ch or climbbybike.com):
> Grosser Oscheniksee (2394 m): start 712 m, top 2394 m; last 10kms are ca. 13% steep, max 18-20%. I recorded it video (Full HD)
> 
> It's an epic, a killer, a monster !
> 
> I loved it !
> 
> Have pleasure with the video !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 pics:
> 
> View attachment 303778
> 
> 
> View attachment 303779
> 
> 
> Best regards, Gabor
> www.facebook.com/cycling.high


That looks like a nut breaker to me. Kudos.

I've ridden 18%+ for short lengths (500 meters or so), but long climbs (several miles or more) at 10%+ gets tough. Grades of 13%+ are difficult for me to sustain regardless of length.


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## Trek_5200

gyorgyigabor said:


> Hello !
> My just edited and uploaded video is just about such a climb. It's one of the toughest in the Alps and harder than Zoncolan or Angliru (based salite.ch or climbbybike.com):
> Grosser Oscheniksee (2394 m): start 712 m, top 2394 m; last 10kms are ca. 13% steep, max 18-20%. I recorded it video (Full HD)
> 
> It's an epic, a killer, a monster !
> 
> I loved it !
> 
> Have pleasure with the video !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 pics:
> 
> View attachment 303778
> 
> 
> View attachment 303779
> 
> 
> Best regards, Gabor
> www.facebook.com/cycling.high


Sounds like Devil's kitchen only longer. Well done!


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## Diopena1

I hate hills.... LOL

I normally ride a 3% that is about a mile and a half long, and it immediately spikes up to a 6% for about 1/2-3/4 miles.... by the time I hit the 6% part, I'm burnt out and on my 39/28, or 39/25 depending, just focusing on trying to keep wattage on the pedal stroke.... even when I drop to a 70 rpm cadence, and mush along... I get the satisfaction of looking back at that piece of road, and grinning with that "I didn't let you beat me" look on my face.... And, immediately after, its downhill from there... no resting, no stopping, stay on the pedals.... So 13% is STEEP!!!! I did a 10% short climb not too long ago, and it hurt like hell!!!


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## spdntrxi

13% is steep but not demoralizing ... I have a few 18%-20% pitches near me.. those downright suck... I pop in the 34/28 and stand and feel like I could walk faster. I honestly don't enjoy going down either because it end at a T. There is one about .3m and another over a mile... the mile one I private..but I so want to do it.


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## mimason

Depends on how long the grade is. I've turned myself inside out on 8% grades but it was a solid 25k with no flat sections or rest areas....just switch backs all the way up and cold.


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## Bevo

At a recent trip to ride the steep Dolomite region of Italy the ride leader said the strongest climber they ever had was from Idaho, he road the wind.

For me the length is killer and averages lie, the Giau in Italy says it averages 10 but there were many sections posted on the road at 15% or more.


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## Flexnuphill

Coming off 3 months of nothing but commuting I decided to try our state championship hill route. It's 6 3/4 miles of a 10 % average with the last mile coming in at 18 1/2 %. Talk about wanting to lose your breakfast... I've never held my VO2 max for 4 min, for that matter I never knew my real VO2 max.


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## SwiftSolo

Did you do any other passes in the immediate area?


Bevo said:


> At a recent trip to ride the steep Dolomite region of Italy the ride leader said the strongest climber they ever had was from Idaho, he road the wind.
> 
> For me the length is killer and averages lie, the Giau in Italy says it averages 10 but there were many sections posted on the road at 15% or more.


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## berserk87

I went to the US Pro Championship race in Philly in the late 90's and rode the wall. It's steep. We rode the day before when some of the pro teams were riding and doing recon of the course. It was pretty amazing watching some of those dudes float up the wall in the big ring.


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## Pirx

robdamanii said:


> And at 19.9% it becomes survival.


Well put. My own internal scale is that things become serious above 10%, so yes, 13% is steep. Like you say, at 20% it becomes a matter of just hoping to survive. That's on a standard crankset, with 39x27 as my lowest gear. With that I can survive 20% for a few hundred yards at most, once I've shed my winter fat ; if I don't get some relief after that (say, down to a "mere" 10%), then it's the walk of shame...


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## rm -rf

Flexnuphill said:


> Coming off 3 months of nothing but commuting I decided to try our state championship hill route. It's *6 3/4 *miles of a *10 %* average with the* last mile* coming in at *18 1/2 %*. Talk about wanting to lose your breakfast... I've never held my VO2 max for 4 min, for that matter I never knew my real VO2 max.


A mile at 18.5%? Wow. I can take on an 18% grade at a very slow speed, but the local 18% grades are usually less than 100 feet tall. 

The 6.75 miles at 10% is 3560 feet; a big, hard climb.
But *a full mile of 18.5% is 976 feet*, and that makes the other 5.75 miles be 8.5%.

Climbs that get way steeper at the top are the worst!


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## rm -rf

The Muro di Sormano climb in Italy is 1.7 km, 280 meters high. That's 1.05 miles, 918 feet high. It's an average grade of 16.5% with a max of 25%.

It was part of the Giro di Lombardia in 1960,61, and 62.
So, the racers in 1960 rode bikes with 50 and 42 chainrings, and 5-speed 17,19,23,24,26. Their 42-26 low gear is the same as just a 34-21 low. The racer quotes in the video show that some riders had to walk it. Just too steep for the gearing of those days.

They revived it for the 2012 Giro. 

It has the coolest stenciled road markings! The elevation number at each meter  and rider times and quotes. That would be so great to go ride.

This is a good video. She's a strong climber.


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## BlazingPedals

My idea of steep starts at about 7%, but I won't complain until the climb is in double digits. Thirteen percent qualifies in either case.


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## Bill2

Steepness is subjective. Depends on your gearing and how fast you go.


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## SwiftSolo

55x11 said:


> Similarly, intense efforts (high intensity training on flat roads is equivalent to hills by the way - nothing special about incline, it's about aerobic output) leading to heart attack or stroke?
> 
> exercise-induced cardiac fatigue


Not sure that putting out 300 watts on a flat at a cadence of 90 for an hour is the same as riding a steep climb at 300 watts at a cadence of 50 for an hour. For most of us, steep climbs and conventional gearing (say above 9% and 34/28) will not permit maintaining the cadence we do on the flats. Additionally, that hour climb likely sees a 3500 to 4000 foot altitude change and the associated reduction in oxygen content.


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## Bevo

SwiftSolo said:


> Did you do any other passes in the immediate area?


We did, part of a tour with Thompson... The average % lies!! The Trans-Dolomites Challenge with Thomson Bike Tours


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## Pirx

55x11 said:


> High intensity training on flat roads is equivalent to hills by the way - nothing special about incline, it's about aerobic output


No, not quite. At least if we're talking about _very_ steep grades (what "very steep" means depends, but let's say there's 20% sections in there for the sake of the argument), many of us will be forced into anaerobic territory, unless you're riding with a triple, perhaps. It _will_ hurt...


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## Doug B

SwiftSolo said:


> Not sure that putting out 300 watts on a flat at a cadence of 90 for an hour is the same as riding a steep climb at 300 watts at a cadence of 50 for an hour. For most of us, steep climbs and conventional gearing (say above 9% and 34/28) will not permit maintaining the cadence we do on the flats. Additionally, that hour climb likely sees a 3500 to 4000 foot altitude change and the associated reduction in oxygen content.



I'm old and fat. 200 watts for an hour on flat ground....sure. 300 watts....I can't do that. 😢


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## SwiftSolo

Thanks for the reply. That sounds like a great tour. Looks like you've done many of the rides we'll be doing. This will be our second time on the Sella Ronda (Gardena, Sella, Pordoi, Campolongo) and the Stelvio--so we know those. The cut and paste list below is this years. Any comments on the others would be appreciated. All of the rides will be out of Corvara (except the Stelvio), many with up to 45 minutes drive time to the start of loops 

1. Marmolada (Canazia to Covara) 5000 vertical	33.86 mi


2. Plose loop (Pso Erbe-Lusen-St. Andrea-Pso Rodella ) 4400 vertical	27.21 mi


3. Passo ***** loop (Carezza-Tiers-St Valentino) 6700 vertical	44.22 mi


4. Pellegrino loop (Moena-Pso Pellegrino-pso Valles-Predazzo) 4900 vertical	32.96 mi


5. Agordo Gosaldo loop 2400 vertical	19.68 mi


6. Giau loop (Andraz-Colle St Lucia-Pso Giau-Pso Falzarego) 6220 vertical	31.99 mi


7. Valparola loop (Corvara-La Villa-Pso Valparola-Arabba) 4200 vertical	31.37 mi


8. Cortina loop (Alvera-Pso Tre Croci-Misurina-Castel Podes.) 3100 vertical
10.Passo Stelvio from Prato thru Santa Maria 6400 vertical	55 miles??

9. Sella Ronda 5600 vertical 39.00mi 


Bevo said:


> We did, part of a tour with Thompson... The average % lies!! The Trans-Dolomites Challenge with Thomson Bike Tours


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## Bevo

Swift, that looks like a great trip, who are you going with?

i did a few of those climbs but need to check my maps on Strava to confirm.
They are all a bit different with some monsters sections hiding in the lower averages.

When are you going?


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## SwiftSolo

Going on June 17th and will ride the Sella Ronda again (june 21st) Last year we hated to leave to do a tour since there were so many great climbs in the area left unexplored (We stay in Colfosco). All of it will be new with a small group of friends except for the Stelvio and the Sella Ronda. The Stelvio will be the only long drive to start at Prato.


Bevo said:


> Swift, that looks like a great trip, who are you going with?
> 
> i did a few of those climbs but need to check my maps on Strava to confirm.
> They are all a bit different with some monsters sections hiding in the lower averages.
> 
> When are you going?


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## maximum7

This un-official ride happens every year here in Portland. 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://media.opb.org/clips/embed/vT13623g20150225225236.js"></script>

47 miles, 7400' of climbing. One hill 30%, another one upper 20's.


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## Bevo

Swift, sounds like fun.

As much as I loved the cycling tour it would be nice to do what your doing, a like minded group out for a great cycling vacation!
next year I may need to do that..


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## SwiftSolo

Doug B said:


> I'm old and fat. 200 watts for an hour on flat ground....sure. 300 watts....I can't do that. 😢


You must not be a fisherman? I can't do 300 watts for an hour either (it was just an example that was tainted with exaggeration). Imagine the responses from the alcohol enhanced here on RBR if I'd used anything less--"what...............at that cadence and power you must be ride'n a 53-11 fixie up a 12% grade at the end of a century"?


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