# traffic ticket #3



## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

....which was actually the second ticket I got, but whatever. This was the stop sign on my way to work at the end of a very long stretch of intersections (the infamous 34th Ave bike path- nearly 3 miles of lights.)

Showed up for the hearing, was asked at the last moment to check "Guilty" or "Not Guilty." Read the fine print, tempted to check "Guilty" and GTFO. 

But that would mean paying a full fine, and I wanted to gamble that the cop(s) wouldn't show up. Checked "Not" and the clerk mumbled something that sounded like approval. Weird.

I was the third one up, cop recited the circumstances, including a strangely detailed description of the STOP sign. "Observed the cyclist from two car lengths away, did not stop at the sign. The sign is octagonal with a red background and white letters S-T-O-P along with markings on the ground indicating where to stop, there were no obstructions blahblahblah. Cyclist was on a black Murser bicycle....."

Considered arguing the brand of bicycle, since it's easy to mispronounce. Thought about the obstruction part- there was a tree nearby, with branches that may have blocked it.....but that would contradict the cop.

The judge asked if I saw the sign. "I think there were in fact branches blocking it. I checked for pedestrians and I checked for traffic, that's all I remember seeing." 

"What about the markings on the ground?" he asked. I shrugged. "All I know is that it was clear." Cyclists aren't looking *at the ground* anyway! 

He wrote the number "5" on a piece of paper and said something about being found guilty. He stamped it and said that the fine would be five dollars  Then he looked at the computer and said "OH! You've already got TWO tickets! That'll be _ten_ dollars." :blush2:

"You have to stop going through lights- that's two red lights you went through!" he said almost laughing. "I've been riding in the city for 16 years," I said, "even when I was a messenger I never had problems. This is all new."

"Yes but you can't go through red lights!" he reminded me.

"I'm not in a 2-ton vehicle going 60mph either!"

"But they're _red lights_, you have to stop!" He seemed to be enjoying this. :skep:

"Stopping on a bike is different......the same laws shouldn't apply....one time was in an industrial area at night, no traffic...." I didn't know where to begin with all the arguments, but knew I had to STFU or risk paying _$20._ :mad2:

"You know, the next ticket will be $700," he warned. 

Big sigh. "I've already paid more than the bike is worth!" Should've asked if they could simply confiscate it next time.

Then I went to the cashier, who looked at HIS monitor and said "Ten dollars.......stop sign........bike........you know, every time I walk in the intersection down on the West Side, there are bikes that go through!" Wasn't sure what he was talking about, but knew where he was coming from. 

"It's not a 2-ton vehicle! Bikes aren't the problem! I've never hit anybody in a crosswalk!" I was practically pleading with him, trying to appeal to his common sense. It feels like the mayor has managed to turn every single non-cyclist against us.

I paid and he said, "Is there anything else I can do for you?" I said, "I could do without the additional lecturing!" 

So this saga is over for now. Just have to decide if it's worth the additional risk to ride to work anymore. Jeeez louise. It's already been $535 worth of pointless drama. **** DiBlasio. rrr:


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

It's a diblasio "hidden" tax to pay for his programs.

Easy money, as somebody on another thread pointed out.

Single out a relatively "unloved" segment of the population -- bicycle riders -- who also happen to be very visible when they break laws, and very easy and safe for cops to apprehend.

I'm sure diblasio and his cronies are patting themselves on the back for their "genius" solution for raising lots of money without any squawking from taxpayers, and (they probably firmly believe) making NYC streets safer for everybody, cyclists included.

Face it, you and other cyclists are easy pickins for a greedy mayor.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Well now you know who to vote out of office next year.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

To think I voted him *in.* Holy crap. :nonod:


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

Entertaining story. Thanks for posting. You get the ticket so we don't. :thumbsup:

RBR won't allow me to rep you, since I repped you for other amusing posts.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Christine, if you have the time to organize an event, I suggest following suit with a "stop-in" done in San Francisco last year.

Wigg Party Protests Stops

If you can get a big group of cyclists to ride single file and stop for every single stop sign during rush hour, it will royally fvck up traffic and be a real eye opener for the NYPD and Deblasio.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Your THIRD ticket and you STILL haven't learned?!

"Just have to decide if it's worth the additional risk to ride to work anymore." What's the risk; that you won't be able to control your own behavior?

I'm sorry but you own this and continue to refuse to accept responsibility.


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## mtrac (Sep 23, 2013)

Christine said:


> I was the third one up, cop recited the circumstances, including a strangely detailed description of the STOP sign. "Observed the cyclist from two car lengths away, did not stop at the sign. The sign is octagonal with a red background and white letters S-T-O-P along with markings on the ground indicating where to stop, there were no obstructions blahblahblah. Cyclist was on a black Murser bicycle....."


He needs to describe the sign as it is described in the statute. In NJ, the lettering on "School Bus" needs to be a certain size and you could conceivably argue that if the officer didn't measure it then how could he or she testify about it?

Sorry about your tickets. An ongoing theme in both this forum and NY/NJ is NYC raising revenue from cyclists under the guise of $afety.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

If I were you, I'd take the subway for the next couple of weeks.


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

Is it Wyoming where cyclists, by law, can treat a stop sign like a yield? Wish it was like that everywhere.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

skinewmexico said:


> Is it Wyoming where cyclists, by law, can treat a stop sign like a yield? Wish it was like that everywhere.


Idaho and it's gotten into the vernacular as an "Idaho Stop", being a pause and roll.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Steve B. said:


> Idaho and it's gotten into the vernacular as an "Idaho Stop", being a pause and roll.


It appears Oklahoma is following suit. The law is supposed to go effective 01NOV.

https://legiscan.com/OK/text/HB2999/2016


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Peter P. said:


> Your THIRD ticket and you STILL haven't learned?!
> 
> "Just have to decide if it's worth the additional risk to ride to work anymore." What's the risk; that you won't be able to control your own behavior?
> 
> I'm sorry but you own this and continue to refuse to accept responsibility.


There's another thread on this where we have discussed painfully the reasons for the tickets, the frustrations of how and why the tickets were issued, Christine's lament about the reasons for wanting to fight the tickets, which as BTW and if you had read the posts, wasn't because she felt she wasn't wrong, but that there were extenuating circumstances. 

Many NYC commuters feel her pain. Many who don't live or bike commute here do not and seemingly feel the need to take a moral high ground and lecture about how wrong she was. Nothing is that cut and dry, there were/are valid reasons for skipping stop signs and red lights in NYC. Go read some of my posts about the absurdity of the numbers, locations etc.., of the lights and signage. And of course the inability of the NYPD to deal with all these issues in a way that keeps the residents safe yet also encourages usage of what is otherwise a decent cycling infrastructure. 

So please, take the lecturing elsewhere.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

I got beeped at by a cop for blowing through a stop sign in my subdivision a couple weeks ago. As I rolled by his car, he just said, stop signs apply to you, too. I said sorry, and that was the end of it.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

skinewmexico said:


> Is it Wyoming where cyclists, by law, can treat a stop sign like a yield? Wish it was like that everywhere.


I could have sworn a DC cop told me around '82 that he would NOT ticket a cyclist for slowing way down and looking both ways before crossing the intersection. He gave me the impression "yield" was ok in DC. They should do that in NYC. I bet they used to. Now that cycling is cool and hip, the city is cashing in. Sucks. 

Will a cop arrest you for jerking to a complete stop as you glance side to side, but with feet still on the pedals, and then go if the coast is clear? We know you're not going to stop riding to work, Christine! :nono: Five bucks? We'll start a fund. :thumbsup:


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Why not just stop at every intersection? Maybe I can summarize.

The 34th Ave. bike path is nearly 3 miles long, which comes to about 60 intersections on that stretch alone (15% or so of the commute.) This ticket was for the very last stop sign along that stretch (going west.) When I stop at each light, that's a _full stop every minute_. Takes about 13 seconds per block, so I end up stopping about every 5 blocks (have counted.) Don't know how many total stops along the 16 miles. 

First ticket was for a red light, at night (was getting dark early), up a hill (seriously) in an industrial area, literally a couple of blocks from where a woman had lye thrown in her face the week before. I was pedaling uphill slowly, no traffic whatsoever, and just wanted to keep moving! 

Third ticket was while riding with John in Brooklyn. We did stop at the light, but just before it changed, figured it was clear, no traffic/peds/cops. Turns out the cop was in an unmarked vehicle. These were the cops that tried to give us the Vision Zero lecture.

Yes, I technically broke the law, but bikes are not heavy, fast machines that kill the way cars do. The laws should be changed, and if not, leniency is deserved.

I've been riding for nearly two decades in/around the city w/o a problem. I'm not reckless or inconsiderate. Never even got a ticket until this year, where suddenly I've got three and John has one. Cars are literally getting away with murder, yet bikers are being punished.

Now I have to alter my riding style, which has served me very well all these years. Intersections are dangerous places- a pedestrian is more likely to get killed in the crosswalk, for example, than by crossing mid-street. It won't help Vision Zero's supposed safety goal if more people are standing around in the intersection.

Anyway. I'm ranting again. As for doing a protest, it only seems to make drivers hate cyclists that much more (see Critical Mass.)

As I type, John is crunching the numbers. Traveling @ 10mph, there's an intersection every 15 seconds, 220 feet apart. Not sure how long it takes for the light to change. So a rider has to start building momentum from scratch.

The support here is greatly appreciated. Glad I can provide some entertainment with this mini soap-opera!

Edit: Last night, a police helicopter was circling our house for half an hour. I was going to make a separate post about it, but now I'm thinking it's related to this


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

The sad thing about this entire crackdown is that it originally started as a way to keep "messengers" in midtown from running over pedestrians in crosswalks. Unfortunately, jerks like that are hard to catch, so instead the cops go for the 'low-hanging fruit', and a woman alone on a road with zero traffic, riding uphill, is about as easy a person to cite. I wouldn't be surprised if they would give a ticket to an 80 year old woman in a wheelchair if they thought the charge could stick. Now that the cops cant just stop-and-frisk every brown-skinned person and write them up for whatever might be on their person, I suspect that the laziest of officers are suddenly finding it difficult to meet their quotas.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

slow way down.
turn right.
make a u-turn.
turn right again.
problem solved.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

blackfrancois said:


> slow way down.
> turn right.
> make a u-turn.
> turn right again.
> problem solved.


It sounds like you are talking about making a right on red turn, which are illegal in NYC.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

Steve B. said:


> It sounds like you are talking about making a right on red turn, which are illegal in NYC.


holy crap. that is ridic.

just looked it up. it's usually legal in the u.s. unless posted otherwise.

but in nyc, it's illegal unless posted otherwise.

i guess this rules out nyc for me.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

blackfrancois said:


> slow way down.
> turn right.
> make a u-turn.
> turn right again.
> problem solved.


Sure! 

A shortened version of that: slide a little right into the cross walk, check right and left before making the slight "U turn" across the crosswalk, then shift left into traffic. I've actually seen cops do this and have gotten away with it in DC with police cars in sight.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Reminds me of an old trucker's adage:

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but
3 rights make a left..."


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_jerks like that are hard to catch, so instead the cops go for the 'low-hanging fruit', and a woman alone on a road with zero traffic, riding uphill, is about as easy a person to cite. I wouldn't be surprised if they would give a ticket to an 80 year old woman in a wheelchair if they thought the charge could stick_

I may not be very fast, but being compared to an 80-year-old woman in a wheelchair is humbling  But that first ticket really was a kick in the pants given the situation.

There has to be a better way of punishing the jerks (I don't think all _fast_ riders are necessarily _jerks_- messengers are on the clock and if they buzz past pedestrians, it could be b/c they're good at picking an efficient line.) 

A warning honk is nice, lets riders know they're being monitored, maybe even warning tickets, or just lower fines. I'd be in favor of the heavy ticketing _if it made a difference in safety_, but it's not.

On this morning's ride in, I left about 20min earlier than usual, so I could take my sweet time. Stopped. At. ALL. The. Lights. And. Signs. All. Of. Them. Every. Single. ****ing. One. Maybe one or two I rode through after somebody else did w/o getting pulled over.

It's a PITA not just to me but to the drivers. For example- a van was in the bike lane just after the intersection. If I were able to ride through the light, I could've swung out into the lane easily and passed it, but no. 

Light turns green, now I have to try and get enough momentum to get ahead of the first car, before I get to the van, otherwise I'd have to stop and wait for all the traffic to pass. 

Instead, I got right in front of the car, who was luckily not enraged by my existence, and built up the momentum as I passed the van, then got back into the bike lane ASAP.

One of the lights included a giant truck, so I started riding before it turned green so I wouldn't have to ride along the blind side of this 18-wheeler. Wanted to get ahead of it. 

Only took me about 8 extra minutes to get to work, not horrible, but not necessary.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> There has to be a better way of punishing the jerks (I don't think all fast riders are necessarily jerks- messengers are on the clock and if they buzz past pedestrians, it could be b/c they're good at picking an efficient line.)
> 
> 
> > How is a cyclist "picking an efficient line"(buzzing) past a pedestrian different than an automobile "picking an efficient line"(buzzing) past a cyclist?
> ...


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Reminds me of an old trucker's adage:
> 
> "Two wrongs don't make a right, but
> 3 rights make a left..."


That's funny! I've seen it!

Also fun to use the crosswalks making a left turn when traffic going your direction is stopped at a light. Time it right, and you hit the second crosswalk, a right turn, just as the light goes red for cross traffic and the "walk" sign comes on. I've seen bike cops do this, too.  Slow down to walking speed, presto, you're a pedestrian!


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

blackfrancois said:


> holy crap. that is ridic.
> 
> just looked it up. it's usually legal in the u.s. unless posted otherwise.
> 
> ...


I have no issues with the no-turn-on-red rule in NYC. 

Folks are so rude to each other that it would just be a huge cluster of accidents from people not understanding that when you decide to turn on red, you have to remember that oncoming traffic in the lane you are turning, has the right-of-way.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

velodog said:


> Christine said:
> 
> 
> > There has to be a better way of punishing the jerks (I don't think all fast riders are necessarily jerks- messengers are on the clock and if they buzz past pedestrians, it could be b/c they're good at picking an efficient line.)
> ...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Steve B. said:


> velodog said:
> 
> 
> > Christine said:
> ...


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_you still haven't explained why it's OK to "safely" buzz a pedestrian with a bike but not OK to "safely" buzz a cyclist with an automobile_

Do I really need to? Just look at the statistics and/or the physics.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> _you still haven't explained why it's OK to "safely" buzz a pedestrian with a bike but not OK to "safely" buzz a cyclist with an automobile_
> 
> Do I really need to? Just look at the statistics and/or the physics.


Yeah, you do, or do you think that a 170lb man on a bicycle moving at 18mph is harmless to a 130lb woman crossing the street.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

velodog said:


> Yeah, you do, or do you think that a 170lb man on a bicycle moving at 18mph is harmless to a 130lb woman crossing the street.


You are being argumentative merely for the sake of ?.

A car weighs 2000 lbs ?. Cars buzz cyclists all the time, sometimes they miss and usually kill a cyclist. Seems we read about this all the time here on the assorted forums.

200 lbs bikes and riders very rarely kill a pedestrian or even have collisions that cause serious injuries. We don't read about this much even in the NYC area. I can only draw the conclusion that it's because it isn't a huge problem, else the NYPD would be all over this, because they love nothing better then to stage a crackdown of their flavor of the month. 

I think you are trying very hard to prove that any illegal behavior by a cyclist is automatically bad and that's just not the case. Christine has pointed out relentlessly how the vehicle laws pertaining to bikes are written badly and are not taking in to account the needs and basic physics related to cycling in an urban environment. 

Why don't you come visit sometimes, do a commute with me or Christine and maybe you'll have some understanding (or watch her commute video).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Steve B. said:


> You are being argumentative merely for the sake of ?.
> 
> A car weighs 2000 lbs ?. Cars buzz cyclists all the time, sometimes they miss and usually kill a cyclist. Seems we read about this all the time here on the assorted forums.
> 
> ...


What I'm saying is that buzzing a person, whether pedestrian or cyclist, is not a good thing, whether done by a automobile or a cyclist. It is you and Christine that are trying very hard to prove that it's really not that big of an issue when a cyclist does it. 

Is their a chart anywhere that shows how many pedestrians are hit by cyclists and what percentage of those are killed because of the crash that can be compared to the same type of chart pertaining to automotive\cyclist crashes? 

Should a cyclist be punished for rolling a stop sign when there is no traffic? No, but to use the argument that a cyclist isn't that great of a danger to a pedestrian is absurd.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

velodog said:


> What I'm saying is that buzzing a person, whether pedestrian or cyclist, is not a good thing, whether done by a automobile or a cyclist. It is you and Christine that are trying very hard to prove that it's really not that big of an issue when a cyclist does it.
> 
> Is their a chart anywhere that shows how many pedestrians are hit by cyclists and what percentage of those are killed because of the crash that can be compared to the same type of chart pertaining to automotive\cyclist crashes?
> 
> Should a cyclist be punished for rolling a stop sign when there is no traffic? No, but to use the argument that a cyclist isn't that great of a danger to a pedestrian is absurd.


A valid point Velo, nobody should ride that way. Messengers have always been the bad child of the cycling scene in this respect. Not sure if you ever saw the video made of a messenger race from Central Park to lower Manahattan. It's appalling (to me) the riding and risks to themselves and others, pedestrians especially. It's on YouTube, search NYC Bike Courier Race. 

I know that the point being attempted is that for a lot of unfortunate reasons, NYC cansometimes be a difficult place to commute on a bike and it's often that we take risks and make moves that would be and are out of place in a more normal environment. I was reminded of this yesterday as I was group riding with the buddies on Long Island and realized I was just scooting across intersections with no fear and less pause then normal, a result of city riding and commuting where my reaction time and ability to judge car speed, distance etc.. is more refined and bolder.

NYC (and other cities I'm certain) just throws curves at you constantly and you learn to deal with the stress and try to stay motivated to continue to commute when possible. Beats driving and that's a fact.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Steve B. said:


> A valid point Velo, nobody should ride that way. Messengers have always been the bad child of the cycling scene in this respect. Not sure if you ever saw the video made of a messenger race from Central Park to lower Manahattan. It's appalling (to me) the riding and risks to themselves and others, pedestrians especially. It's on YouTube, search NYC Bike Courier Race.
> 
> I know that the point being attempted is that for a lot of unfortunate reasons, NYC cansometimes be a difficult place to commute on a bike and it's often that we take risks and make moves that would be and are out of place in a more normal environment. I was reminded of this yesterday as I was group riding with the buddies on Long Island and realized I was just scooting across intersections with no fear and less pause then normal, a result of city riding and commuting where my reaction time and ability to judge car speed, distance etc.. is more refined and bolder.
> 
> NYC (and other cities I'm certain) just throws curves at you constantly and you learn to deal with the stress and try to stay motivated to continue to commute when possible. Beats driving and that's a fact.


Great points. Are the lights on 2nd and 3rd Ave. in Manhattan still timed for 30 mph? The video seemed to show that. Riding in the city is a fast video game compared to riding out in the country or on the MUTs. The messengers had it down!


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

I do agree that one can be a cyclist AND a jerk. Reckless cycling isn't good. 

But often, when you've got a wave of green lights, pedestrians will jaywalk _en masse_. The best way to get through is to pick a line and commit. 

If you get their attention, they get the deer-in-the-headlights look and start shuffling right-left-right-left, not sure what to do. If they don't see you at all, you can buzz past them safely. 

They might be startled, but they should've been paying attention in the first place! Maybe being startled is what wakes them up to their careless behavior, and could save their life later on.

I disagree that what people often *perceive* as "reckless" is in fact reckless. When I go through a red light, for example, all people hear is "she blew a light." I'm not _blasting through_, and if I'm carrying some decent speed at all, I've already checked for traffic.

Sure, there are pedestrians who have been hit and even killed by cyclists. But that number is roughly equivalent to the number killed in an average _week_ by cars. I don't know how many have been hit w/o getting killed, but I am interested in that statistic.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> They might be startled, but they should've been paying attention in the first place! Maybe being startled is what wakes them up to their careless behavior, and could save their life later on.


Same thing that an automobile driver can say about buzzing a cyclist. This argument is not a good one to get your point across, it could, in fact, explain your numerous tickets.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

As I said before you broke the law you pay the price. Everything you say about a cyclist can be said about a car. If you don't like it work to change the laws until then keep the wallet open. Everytime I do a rolling stop I know I could get a ticket. If I get one I'm not going to blame everybody but me.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_Same thing that an automobile driver can say about buzzing a cyclist_

My position is that a bike is not the same thing as a car, so that the same laws should not apply.

Ticket #2 was a quiet intersection at the end of the long stretch of lights. I checked for traffic.

Ticket #3 was after sitting at the red light until right before it changed.

In none of these cases was I being reckless.

As a cyclist these past couple of decades, I've buzzed pedestrians and ridden the same as always, yet never got a ticket. Only since the new mayor has been in office, and his rationale is that it's for "cyclist safety."


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

So I can say the same thing about tickets #2 and #3 if I in a car. What is the difference? Both instances are breaking traffic laws. Are proud that you have buzzed pedestrians it's ok because you did not hit them? Once again I can say the same thing about a car buzzing a cyclist. No contact no harm. You are a work of art when it comes to twisting things your are.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Cars and bikes share the road and the same laws. I almost hit some jackwagon commuting on a bike that flew threw a stop sign in a light commercial area. I had no stop sign and was going less than the speed limit in my SUV. There was a building obscuring his (and my view) so I know he did not see me.

That said, I cannot say that I come to a full, foot down, stop at every stop sign if it is clear. I always stop at a red light.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

There are always going to be examples of near-misses. But the effort put toward ticketing cyclists is disproportional to the amount of threat they pose.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Christine said:


> There are always going to be examples of near-misses. But the effort put toward ticketing cyclists is disproportional to the amount of threat they pose.


You NYC cyclists are rolling ATMs for the mayor.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

O for the love of gawd.....is this thread *still* going? Would somebody please kill it?

View attachment 316177


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

as much of a scofflaw as I am, all I know is that being promised a $700 fine for the next infraction would def alter my cycling habits...


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

No Time Toulouse said:


> O for the love of gawd.....is this thread *still* going? Would somebody please kill it?


dude, you claim you just migrated from BF because of the low signal / noise ratio and you're already whining about threads here...?

exactly what type of entertainment are you seeking...?


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bmach said:


> So I can say the same thing about tickets #2 and #3 if I in a car. What is the difference? Both instances are breaking traffic laws. Are proud that you have buzzed pedestrians it's ok because you did not hit them? Once again I can say the same thing about a car buzzing a cyclist. No contact no harm. You are a work of art when it comes to twisting things your are.


I think we've stated this. You can, as Christine just mentioned, be a car heading down a major Manhattan N/S avenue, and have a set of green lights. The pedestrians wishing to jaywalk will likely be paying attention and *maybe* not walk in front of a car doing 30+, 'cause they instinctively know a car will kill them. 

They will cross and sometimes en masse, jaywalking every foot, in front of a cyclist or group of cyclists, cause the pedestrian(s) know a cyclist probably won't hit them as then the cyclist gets hurt as well. The pedestrians are attempting to establish territory as it were and every NYC cyclist experiences this.

Thus the survival technique for most cyclists is to just weave their way thru and past these jaywalking pedestrians. 

Who's right ?, who's wrong ? 

Pedestrians in controlled intersections MUST yield to vehicles having the right of way. When there is a controlled intersection and marked crosswalk on that street, a pedestrian crossing outside the crosswalk does not have the right of way. Last time I looked that was the vehicle code in NY. Article 27 Vehicle Traffic Law | Pedestrians Rights Duties

Buzzing as a concept is wrong, yet often times it's unavoidable when pedestrians do careless things. 

And the whole point of this typing exercise is when a buzz occurs of a bike and a pedestrian, even when intentional, it is far less dangerous then when it's a car/pedestrian or car/bicycle interaction. Sheer physics. 

To be avoided between cyclist and pedestrian ?, you bet, as there's still that issue of the cyclist is likely to get hurt as well.


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

The answer to your problems is to get very fit. And get riding skills like Danny Macaskill. No cop will ever catch you.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Hmmm, trials could work. Except I can't even do a track stand or a wheelie. 

Last night, while riding home, saw a guy getting pulled over near where I got ticket #2. It was quiet as usual, hardly any cars. The guy was standing there with his wallet in his mouth, rummaging through his backpack, as the cop parked in front of him.

As I rode by, I yelled, "THEY'RE _BRUTAL_, I'M TELLING YOU!!" Glad it was him and not me, but it was also a helpless feeling, couldn't _do_ anything for him.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> As I rode by, I yelled, "THEY'RE _BRUTAL_, I'M TELLING YOU!!" Glad it was him and not me, but it was also a helpless feeling, couldn't _do_ anything for him.


You may have earned your next ticket.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

velodog said:


> You may have earned your next ticket.


It's not like I'm wearing pig socks!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> It's not like I'm wearing pig socks!


Your socks wouldn't have been seen, but the cop can hear you running your mouth. Now, if he has a mind to, all he has to do is keep an eye peeled and issue a ticket 1st chance he gets. If he patrols a neighborhood that you regularly commute through that could be easy.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_ if he has a mind to, all he has to do is keep an eye peeled and issue a ticket 1st chance he gets_

What else is new??


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Christine said:


> _ if he has a mind to, all he has to do is keep an eye peeled and issue a ticket 1st chance he gets_
> 
> What else is new??


What's with the sarcastic emoji? You don't like what I say so you show your disregard with a roll eyes, yet you expect a cop to look the other way and understand that a bike is not a car. The cop doesn't have an emoji at his disposal, so he just issues a ticket.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Look up how many pedestrians needed medical care after being hit by cyclists last year in NY. The study I found stated nearly 1000. 28% of them in Manhattan. So keep buzzing and soon you will add to that number and hopefully you don't kill some, as happened in Central Park.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

I took Christine's emoji to mean she will get ticketed again, no matter what she does. You know, midnight ride on a remote street, no cars in sight, coming to a 1mph "stop," and a cop leaps out of nowhere to ticket her!
She surely had a bad spell of luck. I reckon breaking laws - sometimes 1mph rolling stops, sometimes 10mph - about a dozen times on any given ride. Much worse on some of our group rides. Shoot, a cop could write up eighty riders if he could corral them all!




velodog said:


> What's with the sarcastic emoji? You don't like what I say so you show your disregard with a roll eyes, yet you expect a cop to look the other way and understand that a bike is not a car. The cop doesn't have an emoji at his disposal, so he just issues a ticket.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

bmach said:


> Look up how many pedestrians needed medical care after being hit by cyclists last year in NY. The study I found stated nearly 1000. 28% of them in Manhattan. So keep buzzing and soon you will add to that number and hopefully you don't kill some, as happened in Central Park.


Does the study take into account what the peds were doing at the time? Not being argumentative, I'm truly curious about this. I've had peds step right in front of me in the bike path, oblivious to all but their phone. Usually I can steer away, but just barely, hence "buzzing" them.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Does matter they were struck by a cyclist and required treatment? I see your point a ped steps in front of a car or bike most time it is not the peds fault, even if it was. Just the way it is.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bmach said:


> Does matter they were struck by a cyclist and required treatment? I see your point a ped steps in front of a car or bike most time it is not the peds fault, even if it was. Just the way it is.


If a ped steps out off the sidewalk, some of the time they can be at fault. NY State law is clear that if it's a controlled intersection with a crosswalk and signals to indicate when to cross, if they disobey that signage and/or cross somewhere else, they do not have right of way. If not a controlled intersection, the pedestrian has right of way and vehicles must yield. In NYC many if not most intersections are controlled. 

I too had a pedestrian come out between parked cars today on the commute, mid block, looked right at me and my blinking white front light and proceeded to cross anyway. I braked and slid around behind her, buzzed her in the process, but no choice. This is an example of the attitude pedestrians have towards bikes, they see us yet proceed anyway. I guess they figure we'll move around them. And this was south Brooklyn, not Manhattan. It's no wonder that almost a third of all ped/cycle accidents happen in Manhattan, way too many brainless folks on their phones just not paying attention. I commented on this tonight to my wife who commutes (not on a bike) to 57th and 11th and she just went off on angry rant about how many stupid people she sees daily paying no attention while texting or what have you. I though she was going to rip me a knew one but instead totally agrees about the idiots.

And note that cyclists are not blameless, I also see way too many crazy stunts. Part of my commute is in the Rockaway's of south Queens, NYC, on Rockaway Beach Blvd. It's an east/west divided road with a car lane each way and a painted bike lane each way. I know after decades to watch for what I call the "Rockaway Wrong-Way's", those cyclists whom like to ignore the need to travel in the correct lane and are a friggin menace when they come out of a side street and hook a turn right into you. This morning it was an elderly women on an upright trike, wire basket and straw hat, came around from in front of a garbage truck headed the wrong way and appeared like Scotty had just beamed her into the lane. I slammed on the brakes and just let lose on the poor women, I was so scared. 

So 2 close calls today, par for the course and so goes bike commuting in NYC.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Man, if you think driving a bike in Manhattan is bad, try driving an 18-wheeler there! Boy, do I have stories about that!


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_So 2 close calls today, par for the course and so goes bike commuting in NYC_

Had a similar experience on Tuesday, guy turns the corner directly into my path coming off a side street. I was going south and he was riding north in the same lane (aka "salmoning.") All I did was mutter a swear word and kept on going, glad that there wasn't a collision.

_Man, if you think driving a bike in Manhattan is bad, try driving an 18-wheeler there! Boy, do I have stories about that! _

Ha, I'll bet! Like how they make the bike lanes barely wide enough to park in?


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