# I've come to the conclusion....



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

That this forum really doesn't care that much about doping. This forum only cares about _Armstrong_ doping. Several pages about one tweet and not a single mention of any of the new dopers caught for the last 6 months, like this guy.

Helminen Banned Two Years For EPO | Cyclingnews.com


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

*It is what it is..*



spade2you said:


> That this forum really doesn't care that much about doping. This forum only cares about _Armstrong_ doping. Several pages about one tweet and not a single mention of any of the new dopers caught for the last 6 months, like this guy.
> 
> Helminen Banned Two Years For EPO | Cyclingnews.com


If we found that Michael Jordan had doped and bullied his way to the top, we would be more interested than someone like....say...Luke Walton using dope to improve his jump shot.

Homicides are not uncommon in the news, yet when OJ Simpson was accused of one...people tuned in.

Why is this so hard to comprehend? Clearly, Lance is going to garner more attention than you average pro cyclist who gets popped for doping.

Also, there are some interesting variables involved with regards to the LA doping scandal that don't necessarily apply to the common pro doper.

Also, there are quite a few threads about other pro cyclists getting caught for doping


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Not once was there a thread about all these what's-his-name dopers. So, a dozen dopers would be the equivalent of once Lance tweet?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> That this forum really doesn't care that much about doping. This forum only cares about _Armstrong_ doping. Several pages about one tweet and not a single mention of any of the new dopers caught for the last 6 months, like this guy.
> 
> Helminen Banned Two Years For EPO | Cyclingnews.com


It sounds like the last few months have been hard for you :cryin: 

This is an American, English language, forum. Do you really expect there to be a thread on some Finnish guy on a 3rd tier team?


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

The Lance subject even got "The Doping Forum" bumped up from the bottom of this site. : )


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Not once was there a thread about all these what's-his-name dopers. So, a dozen dopers would be the equivalent of once Lance tweet?


I seem to recall a Cat3 roadie getting a ton of attention on a thread about doping before a gran fondo.

That guy was not even pro.

Again, it is Lance.

I would guesstimate that 96 no name dopers need to get popped to equal the attention from LA's tweet about chillin' at home with his 7 jerseys in the midst of all this turmoil and pending legal action(s).

It is all a shame really. I am bummed about it. Having said that, I will continue to tune in because it is interesting to me.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ahole celebrity factor falls, the mob will lynch. That's how it is.
You're not shedding any tears, are you?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> It sounds like the last few months have been hard for you :cryin:
> 
> This is an American, English language, forum. Do you really expect there to be a thread on some Finnish guy on a 3rd tier team?


Americans account for hardly any of the professional peloton. How many _big_ races do we have? If we only paid attention to American riders, what would we do the rest of the day? 

This brings me to my next point. How come only no-name riders are getting busted this year? There was the dude on AG2R, the guy who won the Tour of Turkey, and a few more. Are the big names doping less or do they still have a pass?


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm a black & white kind of person. Either you hate people who dope, or you don't. If you don't like Lance because he's a bully, but like Hamilton even though he doped, you are not disliking Lance for doping, you are disliking Lance for being a bully. 

I'm also a person who believes the rules and consequences are the same for all. Not a 6 month ban for those "confess", and a 2 year ban for others. The outcome and the effects it had on those who were affected by the doper are the same whether the doper confessed or not.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Americans account for hardly any of the professional peloton. How many _big_ races do we have? If we only paid attention to American riders, what would we do the rest of the day?


Funny, I did not see you crying about all the Armstrong threads in the Pro Cycling forum during his decade long fraud. 

Don't worry, he will slowly fade into irrelevancy...... but after over a decade of swallowing his ridiculous lies do not be surprised if it takes more then a few days


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Don't worry, he will slowly fade into irrelevancy


Story of everyone's life


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> That this forum really doesn't care that much about doping. This forum only cares about _Armstrong_ doping. Several pages about one tweet and not a single mention of any of the new dopers caught for the last 6 months, like this guy.
> 
> Helminen Banned Two Years For EPO | Cyclingnews.com


True that!:thumbsup:


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Yes, the doping forum was the Armstrong forum for quite some time. 

Now that the investigation has ended, Armstrong has been stripped, and the entire fiasco is winding down there's not much to talk about. It seems that the end of this saga has been... anticlimactic. 



Doctor Falsetti said:


> It sounds like the last few months have been hard for you :cryin:





Doctor Falsetti said:


> Funny, I did not see you crying about all the Armstrong threads in the Pro Cycling forum


What's with the personal attacks?


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> This brings me to my next point. How come only no-name riders are getting busted this year? There was the dude on AG2R, the guy who won the Tour of Turkey, and a few more. Are the big names doping less or do they still have a pass?


Well, if you'd been reading some of the threads regarding Hamilton and perused the Reasoned Decision submitted by USADA, then you really ought to know the answer to that question...

yes, Armstrong has preoccupied many in this forum for the last couple of months and that's no more than I would expect. I've heard the folks over in P.O. have been working themselves up about some election of late and talked about very little else.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Yes, the doping forum was the Armstrong forum for quite some time.
> 
> Now that the investigation has ended, Armstrong has been stripped, and the entire fiasco is winding down there's not much to talk about. It seems that the end of this saga has been... anticlimactic.
> 
> What's with the personal attacks?


If I said anything half as mean as that, I would have had a few warnings in my inbox.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Funny, I did not see you crying about all the Armstrong threads in the Pro Cycling forum during his decade long fraud.
> 
> Don't worry, he will slowly fade into irrelevancy...... but after over a decade of swallowing his ridiculous lies do not be surprised if it takes more then a few days


During his reign of terror, I had my nose deep in books on the way to my doctorate.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

love4himies said:


> I'm a black & white kind of person. Either you hate people who dope, or you don't. If you don't like Lance because he's a bully, but like Hamilton even though he doped, you are not disliking Lance for doping, you are disliking Lance for being a bully.
> 
> I'm also a person who believes the rules and consequences are the same for all. Not a 6 month ban for those "confess", and a 2 year ban for others. The outcome and the effects it had on those who were affected by the doper are the same whether the doper confessed or not.


Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Per Betsy Andreu, Lance is the biggest fraud in sports. I agree. Most things in life are grey. Moreover, in the law as well as in life, there are mitigating and aggravating factors.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Tschai said:


> Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Per Betsy Andreu, Lance is the biggest fraud in sports. I agree. Most things in life are grey. Moreover, in the law as well as in life, there are mitigating and aggravating factors.


Who do you think supplied Lance and ensured that he didn't get caught? While it appears he's the biggest fraud, he's only one small piece of the puzzle. 

Betsy Andreu, Greg LeMond, and all ex-team mates are only motivated by revenge. Cleaning up the sport isn't on the back burner or on the stove at all. The scorched earth policy with Lance is only making us _feel_ like we're cleaning up the sport. I wouldn't drink the water quite yet. 

For Lance to give up all 7 vs. lose 2, I suspect that his handlers have some sort of plan up their sleeves.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Who do you think supplied Lance and ensured that he didn't get caught? While it appears he's the biggest fraud, he's only one small piece of the puzzle.
> 
> Betsy Andreu, Greg LeMond, and all ex-team mates are only motivated by revenge. Cleaning up the sport isn't on the back burner or on the stove at all. The scorched earth policy with Lance is only making us _feel_ like we're cleaning up the sport. I wouldn't drink the water quite yet.
> 
> For Lance to give up all 7 vs. lose 2, I suspect that his handlers have some sort of plan up their sleeves.


It is better than it was yesterday. It takes time. The UCI is next and it appears as though there may be some changes there in the near future.

On the other hand, as long as there is a way to beat a test, there will always be doping in pro cycling. Always.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> It is better than it was yesterday. It takes time. The UCI is next and it appears as though there may be some changes there in the near future.
> 
> On the other hand, as long as there is a way to beat a test, there will always be doping in pro cycling. Always.


Greg and Betsy have exactly what they want. I highly doubt that any further actions will be taken by them. If Greg goes after Big Mig, I'll gladly change my tune, but that's not happening.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

does this then mean you are going somewhere else for your trolling fun?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> does this then mean you are going somewhere else for your trolling fun?


I will willingly leave this forum if all doping forum regulars will admit that they only care about Armstrong's doping and could care less about the rest. 

Since nobody will do that, I guess my answer is nope.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Funny, I did not see you crying about all the Armstrong threads in the Pro Cycling forum during his decade long fraud.
> 
> Don't worry, he will slowly fade into irrelevancy...... but after over a decade of swallowing his ridiculous lies do not be surprised if it takes more then a few days


I think you are dead wrong abou this Lemond fanboy. He seems totally OK with his place in life. Money in the bank instead of wasting it on lawyers and trials that will never end. I think his picture says it all.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

F*** yo couch, Lance Armstrong!


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

And FWIW, LeMond's anti-doping outspokenness has in no way, shape, or form been limited to Armstrong.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

spade2you said:


> For Lance to give up all 7 vs. lose 2, I suspect that his handlers have some sort of plan up their sleeves.


I think the plan was to avoid perjury charges, which he would've been exposed to if he admitted/kept 5.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mpre53 said:


> And FWIW, LeMond's anti-doping outspokenness has in no way, shape, or form been limited to Armstrong.


With Lance busted, his campaign stops right here.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I will willingly leave this forum if all doping forum regulars will admit that they only care about Armstrong's doping and could care less about the rest.
> 
> Since nobody will do that, I guess my answer is nope.


Or is just possible that the regulars here care about all doping and Armstrong just happens to be the biggest fish in the barrel?

Nah. Can't be that.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Or is just possible that the regulars here care about all doping and Armstrong just happens to be the biggest fish in the barrel?
> 
> Nah. Can't be that.


Nothing better than catching the biggest fish. Still plenty more big fish to be caught.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

I care about all doping. Ask my co-workers, they're tired of me calling NFL players dopers. (that's just this time of year)

I've never lived life LA-centric...not gonna start now. He's just the big fish that has been caught. 

And off the top of my head, there have been many many conversations here about other dopers. We're just currently overshadowed by the big fish. If this does lead to true change in the sport, I will be very glad.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> With Lance busted, his campaign stops right here.


which is why he continued. 
keep on trolling


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mmoose said:


> If this does lead to true change in the sport, I will be very glad.


Doubtful. I am very suspicious that we're only catching small fish this year.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> which is why he continued.
> keep on trolling


If he accomplishes something beyond Lance, I'll gladly change my tune. 

Big Mig would be another nice fish on the wall, but he'll NEVER go after him.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> If he accomplishes something beyond Lance, I'll gladly change my tune.
> 
> Big Mig would be another nice fish on the wall, but he'll NEVER go after him.


or the uci. of course you'll just flip at that point and continue to troll


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> With Lance busted, his campaign stops right here.


Nonsense

Did you miss his open letter to the UCI? His support of the Kimmage fund? His recent talks in in Ireland about how to change the sport?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Talk is just that. Talk.


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Look, fellas, from a standpoint of whether the Lance blowover may tend to mute
or dilute or dispel the aggressiveness of comprehensive prosecution of the doper
infrastructure, I am not altogether sure broadbrushing spade2you as a lancelover
and discounting his view out-of-hand represents a completely rational or unbiased
viewpoint perse. This from a forum that is supposed to represent broadminded and
comprehensive evaluation of this situation, and I think there may be at least the
possibility that some of this effect may occur. Most likely, though the impetus of
prosecution may be counted on to inevitably and inexorably carry through this process
of cleaning everything up and getting to the bottom of the whole sordid mess and
meting out justice for all persons involved. I caution against the spirit of debuking
any sentiment even obliquely seeming not to villify LA prima facie.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

LeMond is still fighting the good fight. 

His latest brainfart was telling people that they shouldn't get USAC licenses this year.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

phoehn9111 said:


> Look, fellas, from a standpoint of whether the Lance blowover may tend to mute
> or dilute or dispel the aggressiveness of comprehensive prosecution of the doper
> infrastructure, I am not altogether sure broadbrushing spade2you as a lancelover
> and discounting his view out-of-hand represents a completely rational or unbiased
> ...


nobody broadbrushing anything. the troll is just trolling.
edited: and before coolhand gets his undies all twisted, it's not an insult, spade has happily proclaimed himself a troll in the past.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

den bakker said:


> nobody broadbrushing anything. the troll is just trolling.
> edited: and before coolhand gets his undies all twisted, it's not an insult, spade has happily proclaimed himself a troll in the past.


Even if the guy said it in the past, calling him a troll three posts in a row doesn't add much to the conversation.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> nobody broadbrushing anything. the troll is just trolling.
> edited: and before coolhand gets his undies all twisted, it's not an insult, spade has happily proclaimed himself a troll in the past.


I just troll the trolls. 

Coolhand isn't the one who gets his undies twisted. Who hits the report button? Perhaps it's generally the ones who dish it and antagonize while barely staying within the confines of the rules. 

Again, nobody is finding it strange that only the small fish are getting caught this year? 

..and no, I don't believe that most of you guys or Greg care about clean cycling other than busting Lance.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Again, nobody is finding it strange that only the small fish are getting caught this year?


you mean F. Schleck?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> you mean F. Schleck?


Other than being suspended by his team, no actions have been taken. He tested positive for a diuretic that none of us have even heard of. No real actions taken at this point. No EPO with the big names. That's suspicious.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Other than being suspended by his team, no actions have been taken. He tested positive for a diuretic that none of us have even heard of. No real actions taken at this point. No EPO with the big names. That's suspicious.


keep on moving the goal posts if you find it funny. happy trolling


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> keep on moving the goal posts if you find it funny. happy trolling


You can do better than that. I've seen it. Show us the snark like you normally do. 

No EPO in the big names. Some unheard of diuretic with Frandy. A handful of no-names get busted for EPO. Yes, this makes me a big 'ol Lance fanboy.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Yes, this makes me a big 'ol Lance fanboy.


nice try


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> nice try


Thanks! It warms my heart.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Spade and Den - I think you both make good points, but are talking past eachother.

I couldn't give a flying f if Spade is a fanboy or Den is "snarky" - Spade's OP is a fair question.

It seems the little fish get the boot no questions asked while the "big fish" get warnings and prolonged investigations and litigation. While I'm glad when a big fish gets netted, I'm not glad about the unequal treatment they seem to recieve. Perhaps it's just a function of money and influence as in most other walks of life? In any event, we can hope that reforms will lead to more equal treatment and outcomes for the dopeing class.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Other than being suspended by his team, no actions have been taken. He tested positive for a diuretic that none of us have even heard of. No real actions taken at this point. No EPO with the big names. That's suspicious.


More nonsense. 

Schleck has had multiple hearings with ALAD. Ferrari has been connected to 70 riders. 

You willingness to embrass yourself is impressive


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I just troll


Good of you to admit it


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Good of you to admit it


You should do the same some day. OH NOES, YOU JUST HIT REPORT!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> More nonsense.
> 
> Schleck has had multiple hearings with ALAD. Ferrari has been connected to 70 riders.
> 
> You willingness to embrass yourself is impressive


Hearings but no official sentence. Ferarri has indeed been connected, but nothing is happening to the likes of Cuddels or Rogers. Scarponi? Maybe.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

spade2you said:


> That this forum really doesn't care that much about doping. This forum only cares about _Armstrong_ doping. Several pages about one tweet and not a single mention of any of the new dopers caught for the last 6 months, like this guy.
> 
> Helminen Banned Two Years For EPO | Cyclingnews.com


I've always been interested in doping as it was part of the game. I certainly cared the most about Armstrong doping because I've thought and argued for years that it was so patently obvious he was doping that I couldn't understand the folks who couldn't see it. I care most about Armstrong's doping still because it feels good to be vindicated


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I care most about Armstrong's doping still because it feels good to be vindicated


How have you personally been vindicated?


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I've always been interested in doping as it was part of the game. I certainly cared the most about Armstrong doping because I've thought and argued for years that it was so patently obvious he was doping that I couldn't understand the folks who couldn't see it. I care most about Armstrong's doping still because it feels good to be vindicated


Some people presume innocence until proven guilty.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

Well, this is just my opinion. There is a handful of members here, on the doping forum, that are very active, and that really are less than thrilled with Lance. It has been made clear to me early on that if you have anything nice to say about him, you'll get negitave rep here. It's sad that there is this myopic view in the doping forum when clearly the PED siuation in cycling is much larger than anyone ever condsidered. I would think that there should be more threads about the different types of PED's than the "Lance Sucks" threads that populate this group. Why is everyone here so obsesed with him? You call people "Fanboys" but you are the ones who stalk his every move, complain about everything he does. If you don't like someting, stop watching.

There is a ton, and I mean a ton of news worthy doper information out there, heck, one could even say it's because of Lance, but there's a lot more interesting crap to talk about other than a fallen hero to many, and a lying cheat that's been exposed to others.

Just my 2 cents.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

So what about Pantani, who lied about doping, even at his death?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

love4himies said:


> Some people presume innocence until proven guilty.


Oh he was guilty as hell. Guilty of doping. Guilty of lying. Guilty of setting up a cancer foundation to use it as shield. Innocent my ass.

Eh.., many Euros knew this. Oh yeah, they did. But many Americans, for a decade, thru American media, bought in, and fully subscribed to the Armstrong myth. Many Americans would call the Euros "trash" for doubting, for dissing, their hero. Thought of Euros were just a bunch of jealous trash, who got whooped, got spanked, got fed a can of whoopass, by their mythical hero, the hero who won 7 TDF and knock out cancer all in one stroke. Hollywood movie superhero stuff,.. :thumbsup:

But now that the myth is busted wide open, many of those Americans are starting to see the truth. But still you have pockets of remnant believers (mostly die hard American fans of the Armstrong Myth) who is going through withthdrawal, and this thread represents classic withdrawal process.:idea:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Isn't it superhero stuff to come back from being shot and win the TdF? 

Armstrong's myth was busted, but what the myth of cleanly winning the Giro-Tour double? I must be American trash for questioning it.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> But now that the myth is busted wide open, many of those Americans are starting to see the truth. But still you have pockets of remnant believers (mostly die hard American fans of the Armstrong Myth) who is going through withthdrawal, and this thread represents classic withdrawal process.:idea:


Based on discussions at work and whatnot, IMO most Americans acknowledge he cheated now... but don't really care and generally think positively of him. Either because the whole "cheating in sports" concept isn't new or because they realize most everyone else in cycling also cheated. They don't make him out to be some villain. Mainly, they don't really care.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

love4himies said:


> Some people presume innocence until proven guilty.


A very large percentage of the evidence that was used to convict Armstrong has been public knowledge for a long time, upwards of a decade in some instances. Just because people chose not to believe it and bought the improbable explanations to dismiss it doesn't mean it didn't "prove" he was guilty.

For God's sake, there was never a legitimate reason to believe the exogenous EPO they found in his '99 Tour samples wasn't evidence of doping. Since the SCA (?) trial it's been know that the cortisone "positive" explanation was a ruse. The hospital room confession revealed by the Andreau's was independently confirmed in a context that almost guaranteed it actually happened. Need I go on?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Dwayne Barry said:


> The hospital room confession revealed by the Andreau's was independently confirmed in a context that almost guaranteed it actually happened. Need I go on?


You mean how Frankie was taking the same stuff, too? :idea: Frankie's wife was appalled, but what was her reaction to her own husband's doping?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> You mean how Frankie was taking the same stuff, too? :idea: Frankie's wife was appalled, but what was her reaction to her own husband's doping?


I think that to a certain extent you all sorta agree with each other. It just does not show, as you all hold such strong opinions and get stuck in rut defending them as maybe true.

Been there myself. Keep on digging just to show another view point. I like to hear both sides.

Keep at it. The personal things are tempting, but juvenile. I have been guilty of that myself also


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> I think that to a certain extent you all sorta agree with each other. It just does not show, as you all hold such strong opinions and get stuck in rut defending them as maybe true.
> 
> Been there myself. Keep on digging just to show another view point. I like to hear both sides.
> 
> Keep at it. The personal things are tempting, but juvenile. I have been guilty of that myself also


Probably. 

I'm actually not much of a fan of Lance, but I don't take things personally. I might if he picked on me in grade school or stole some songs I wrote in a band, but I'll likely never have any experience with Lance. I don't ride a Trek. Despite preferring Pantani, I have a pretty good idea of what happened, not that I condone it.

I honestly feel that this is more about revenge against Lance than cleaning up the sport. If we're going to go scorched earth on dopers, we really should strip Pantani, Contador, Ullrich, and many more. The whole business of guys like Saint Basso is where I start to draw the line. Not too many innocent parties. I have my doubts of those who claim innocence. 

Personally, I don't think Lance is the big kingpin. Bully, yes. I don't think he's smart enough to create such elaborate plans.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

spade2you said:


> With Lance busted, his campaign stops right here.


You obviously haven't been following his latest mission to get rid of McQuaid, I guess.

Time to stop feeding the troll, now.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mpre53 said:


> You obviously haven't been following his latest mission to get rid of McQuaid, I guess.
> 
> Time to stop feeding the troll, now.


More revenge for allowing Lance to not get busted.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Isn't it superhero stuff to come back from being shot and win the TdF?
> 
> Armstrong's myth was busted, but what the myth of cleanly winning the Giro-Tour double? I must be American trash for questioning it.


Evidence? 

See, the way it works is that until you have some you're just slinging **** around your cage.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Evidence?
> 
> See, the way it works is that until you have some you're just slinging **** around your cage.


Evidence of Pantani doping?

Greg coming back was the ultimate comeback story until Lance.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

There are a number of people involved with different motives. I don't think things would be this extreme for Lance if he was a nice guy. That goes a long way.

On the other hand, money is money. If I were SCA, for example, you better believe I would be getting my money back from Lance.

Time will tell. It is all about perception. Will the younger generation of pro racers think "Geez, I better not dope...look what happened to Lance"? Probably not.

Will the UCI keep themselves in check after all of this is over? I believe so. Things will get ugly for the UCI....just give it some time. Now way they get out of this without a major overhaul.

The governing bodies keeping themselves in check will result in a much cleaner sport.

As I said before, doping will never go away as long as there is a way to circumvent or beat a test. Never.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I would be very pleased if the UCI got more than a little overhaul. 

Most of this LA business is for show. I legitimately think something is up with the lack bigger name riders being caught for EPO and HGH.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Nothing better than catching the biggest fish. Still plenty more big fish to be caught.


Are you ignoring the 20-odd other cyclists sanctioned by USADA in the last two years alone? Sure seems that way. Maybe the Lance fixation is yours.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

YamaDan said:


> Well, this is just my opinion. There is a handful of members here, on the doping forum, that are very active, and that really are less than thrilled with Lance. It has been made clear to me early on that if you have anything nice to say about him, you'll get negitave rep here. It's sad that there is this myopic view in the doping forum when clearly the PED siuation in cycling is much larger than anyone ever condsidered. I would think that there should be more threads about the different types of PED's than the "Lance Sucks" threads that populate this group. Why is everyone here so obsesed with him? You call people "Fanboys" but you are the ones who stalk his every move, complain about everything he does. If you don't like someting, stop watching.
> 
> There is a ton, and I mean a ton of news worthy doper information out there, heck, one could even say it's because of Lance, but there's a lot more interesting crap to talk about other than a fallen hero to many, and a lying cheat that's been exposed to others.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


This is exactly what I have noticed about this forum too.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Are you ignoring the 20-odd other cyclists sanctioned by USADA in the last two years alone? Sure seems that way. Maybe the Lance fixation is yours.


Other than the ex US Postal/Discovery, what big fish are on the list? I've never heard of any of the sanctioned cyclists.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Dwayne Barry said:


> A very large percentage of the evidence that was used to convict Armstrong has been public knowledge for a long time, upwards of a decade in some instances. Just because people chose not to believe it and bought the improbable explanations to dismiss it doesn't mean it didn't "prove" he was guilty.
> 
> For God's sake, there was never a legitimate reason to believe the exogenous EPO they found in his '99 Tour samples wasn't evidence of doping. Since the SCA (?) trial it's been know that the cortisone "positive" explanation was a ruse. The hospital room confession revealed by the Andreau's was independently confirmed in a context that almost guaranteed it actually happened. Need I go on?


I guess for some people (me included), they believe that if there was irrefutable evidence that he doped (positive urine/blood tests), then he would have been banned years ago by the governing bodies.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

rydbyk said:


> There are a number of people involved with different motives. I don't think things would be this extreme for Lance if he was a nice guy. That goes a long way.
> .


But it shouldn't. All cyclists that have cheated should be treated the same way. Just because you are nice and confess, doesn't mean that your actions that cheated out a clean rider of possible titles/funding is less hurtful to the clean rider. You can never go back in time so the clean rider gets what he/she deserves.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

love4himies said:


> I guess for some people (me included), they believe that* if there was irrefutable evidence that he doped (positive urine/blood tests), then he would have been banned years ago by the governing bodies.*


He most certainly would have and should have. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to ponder that the UCI was probably on the payroll and looking the other way.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

spade2you said:


> I would be very pleased if the UCI got more than a little overhaul.
> 
> Most of this LA business is for show. I legitimately think something is up with the lack bigger name riders being caught for EPO and HGH.


I don't think very many people here would disagree with that. Certainly Contador is getting the star treatment, and not just in Spain. It's not surprising since the UCI functions more like a movie star's agent and will do whatever they can to keep their star out of the tabloids.

However, the HGH test is virtually useless, and it's nearly impossible to detect micro-dosed EPO administered via IV the night before a test. If you get caught for EPO you did something wrong, so it's no surprise that riders who can afford even de minimus medical advice aren't caught by drug tests, even without UCI involvement. Those that do have failed the IQ/self discipline test.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

YamaDan said:


> If you don't like someting, stop watching.
> .


So if we don't like the direction the sport is going we should just ignore it? Does this apply to Verbuggen, McQuaid, Ferrari, Marti, and Johan? Should we ignore their toxic actions or just ignore lance's actions?


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> So if we don't like the direction the sport is going we should just ignore it? Does this apply to Verbuggen, McQuaid, Ferrari, Marti, and Johan? Should we ignore their toxic actions or just ignore lance's actions?


Common, you know that's not what was said. 

Why are there threads Post Lance Collapse about him going to Hawaii or sitting on the couch or wiping his ass? That's what I'm talking about. 

He dopped, got caught, next topic. I'm ready to move on. 

What about the guys who came forward? No new threads on GH? Or the others who retired, "oh and by the way we dopped too"..

I asked who raced clean...crickets.. Someone posts Lance is in Hawaii..and it's living it all over again. Who's the real "fanboys?"


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

terzo rene said:


> I don't think very many people here would disagree with that. Certainly Contador is getting the star treatment, and not just in Spain. It's not surprising since the UCI functions more like a movie star's agent and will do whatever they can to keep their star out of the tabloids.
> 
> However, the HGH test is virtually useless, and it's nearly impossible to detect micro-dosed EPO administered via IV the night before a test. If you get caught for EPO you did something wrong, so it's no surprise that riders who can afford even de minimus medical advice aren't caught by drug tests, even without UCI involvement. Those that do have failed the IQ/self discipline test.


BAM! You have nailed it. Contador gets to shrug it off and comes back to win the Vuelta...again, a man who operated under Johan. Even if he were clean, which I doubt, Routley was dead on that dopers tend to retain a lot of the fitness they built from doping. Not that it matters since the pros are currently a step or two ahead of the testers since they haven't caught anyone besides Frank Schleck. 

Side note, I still laugh about Greg kinda defending Contador in 2010. Was the enemy of his enemy a friend? 

Meanwhile the ex Postal and Discovery crew either retire or serve 6 months that will minimally impact racing. Busting Lance makes people feel good because he was a snake, but I highly doubt that there weren't other snakes within that pack.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

YamaDan said:


> Common, you know that's not what was said.
> 
> Why are there threads Post Lance Collapse about him going to Hawaii or sitting on the couch or wiping his ass? That's what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


Have you looked at the 1st page of the doping forum? 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/sven-nijs-295425.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/david-george-admits-epo-nedbanks-withdraws-295032.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/will-routley-vancouver-sun-295116.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/how-many-dopers-can-you-count-295047.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/do...dopers-stole-best-years-my-career-294133.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/ferrari-trouble-246509.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/julich-294420.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/contador-think-tank-293937.html

All of those topics are covered, and many more


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

terzo rene said:


> . Certainly Contador is getting the star treatment, and not just in Spain.


Not from many fans. He was booed at most of the races he attended outside of Spain

Contador booed by Tour fans | euronews, world news


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

love4himies said:


> I guess for some people (me included), they believe that if there was irrefutable evidence that he doped (positive urine/blood tests), then he would have been banned years ago by the governing bodies.


If we know nothing else we know the governing body only acted when it was forced to act, especially when it came to the the star riders of the sport.

All dopers were protected by a system where the guys at the top weren't interested in catching anyone, and the guys post-WADA who were entrusted to catch them had limited means to do so.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Not from many fans. He was booed at most of the races he attended outside of Spain
> 
> Contador booed by Tour fans | euronews, world news


I know it's not popular in this subforum, but I like watching Contador race and look forward to his return. He made the Veulta exciting.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> I know it's not popular in this subforum, but I like watching Contador race and look forward to his return. He made the Veulta exciting.


Yeah, but now I watch wondering what drugs he's on.

Here's a good Example of a rider, caught, that did NOT get his tours taken away.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Not from many fans. He was booed at most of the races he attended outside of Spain
> 
> Contador booed by Tour fans | euronews, world news


Your hyperbole almost slipped past me! You said *most* of the races. That article is almost two years old and says that he was booed at one race. 

Has Contador been booed since then? Has he been booed recently?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

YamaDan said:


> Well, this is just my opinion. There is a handful of members here, on the doping forum, that are very active, and that really are less than thrilled with Lance. It has been made clear to me early on that if you have anything nice to say about him, you'll get negitave rep here. It's sad that there is this myopic view in the doping forum when clearly the PED siuation in cycling is much larger than anyone ever condsidered. I would think that there should be more threads about the different types of PED's than the "Lance Sucks" threads that populate this group. Why is everyone here so obsesed with him? You call people "Fanboys" but you are the ones who stalk his every move, complain about everything he does. If you don't like someting, stop watching.
> 
> There is a ton, and I mean a ton of news worthy doper information out there, heck, one could even say it's because of Lance, but there's a lot more interesting crap to talk about other than a fallen hero to many, and a lying cheat that's been exposed to others.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Well said - I'll not Neg Rep you - even if you are a fanboy! :thumbsup:


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

YamaDan said:


> Yeah, but now I watch wondering what drugs he's on.
> 
> Here's a good Example of a rider, caught, that did NOT get his tours taken away.


Took a Tour and a Giro from him...not enough?


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> Your hyperbole almost slipped past me! You said *most* of the races. That article is almost two years old and says that he was booed at one race.
> 
> Has Contador been booed since then? Has he been booed recently?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Spade is right - the way the sport has sanctioned riders and whom gets sanctioned seems pretty messed-up.

Had the system been even remotly fair - Armstrong would have been sanctioned a long time ago and his fanboys would be a lot less entrenched than they are now.

Also, if it can be proven that rider A was doping during the period he or she won so-and-so race - that victory should be taken from them as it was in Armstrong's and Conti's cases - that includs The Cannibal, Pantanni and Riis among others. 

If the sport is really going to clean house, lets pick up the dust of the past as well.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

LostViking said:


> Took a Tour and a Giro from him...not enough?


Well, no, take em all ban him for life.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

YamaDan said:


> Well, no, take em all ban him for life.


I agree - but not in the rules - yet.

I hope that will be the rule in the future.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

I dunno, it's a tough thing, this whole dopping business.. but, I think that racers would be a little more hesitant to participate in doping activity if they knew it would be the end of everything for them. Past results, wiped away, future gone. UCI should adopt a zero tolerance policy. You test positive, you're gone, forever.

The problem with the sport now, for me, is that my perception will be forever changed. I don't think anyone is clean. And I'd be willing to bet there's a few others "fanboys" that feel the same.

So here's my delimema.. Do I watch and enjoy and not give a crap that they're all doping, or do I stop watching altogether? 

Hey, Dr. Falsetti is totally correct about Lance... But, that dosen't make me feel any better about the rest of them. The Doping Forum regulars are all vindicated, but that doesn't make anyone happy about watching the tour, or any professinal bike race at this point.

Hell, I just did a Mountain Bike Race over the weekend, and I'm looking around, wondering how many of the guys I'm racing against are on something, I'm in the 40 Masters class where Testosterone is the flavor of the day.. ggggrrrreeeeesaaaaattt.. (In the riders meeting I asked "show of hands, who's on EPO..") It got a good laugh, but seriously..who is?

Ugh.. Dr. Falsetti asked me if we should just ignore a bad situation.. no we shouldn't.. but, there needs to be a solution for it.. and right now, I haven't seen any comming anytime soon.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

I was all for doing away with two year bans and replacing them with four year bans before all this came to light - now I think I'm leaning in the direction of lifetime bans. 

Yes, take thier victories if they were doped when they won them. Suspend a rider immediatly if that rider is identified by a test as having doped - the Conti thing with him continuing to ride as the case got batted around was a farce and should never re-occur.

I can't watch a race and be okay with the fact that the winner (or anybody else) is doped to the gills - and I don't think I'm alone in that or wanting to see real reform and not just bussiness as usual (as after Festina).

I admit to some satisfaction from Lance being caught, but I also like it when the other cheaters get caught as well - this is not and should not be about Lance alone. It's about a culture and how far this culture has reached down into the body of this sport.

Always found it hilarious how people appear to be "racing" on the recreational rides I go to - are those "hammers" using a little something extra so they can fly by us fat Freds (or, as I suspect, am I just that slow)? 

Hmmmmmmmm.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

I think most people agree that the UCI is complicit in covering up the problem. Have been in the past and are still at it. Nothing will really change until there is change there.
I agree w/ Spade that it's suspicious how there have been relatively few "other" big names caught recently. OTOH, it doesn't surprise me at all that LA is practically the only topic for the Doping Forum.
As far as catching the guilty riders- no one is going to come forth, knowing they'll likely lose their jobs. As distasteful as it might be, an "amnesty" or "truth reconciliation" might be the only thing to bring the past bad guys to light, since the tests seem so easy to cheat.
And we have to get the past baddies to clean up today's sport- since many of them are so involved.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

YamaDan said:


> Hell, I just did a Mountain Bike Race over the weekend, and I'm looking around, wondering how many of the guys I'm racing against are on something, I'm in the 40 Masters class where Testosterone is the flavor of the day.. ggggrrrreeeeesaaaaattt.. (In the riders meeting I asked "show of hands, who's on EPO..") It got a good laugh, but seriously..who is?


What is the criteria for suspecting that a P1/2/3 45+ guy is doping, that he wins? A dominating performance? It can't be performance, as we would see dominators and winners in amateur cycling with or without PEDs. 

I think it festers resentment to think _that guy must be on something_ when someone is fast. Maybe because I've accepted that I'll never be anything more than an amateur racer, an enthusiast, I've also accepted that there will always be guys faster than me in races. Some guys are just _good_. 

I've concluded that it's not even worth worrying about who might be on the sauce. Then again while I also race, I'm not old enough to race masters (I'm still in my prime ) so I am not facing the testosterone replacement therapy crowd. When someone kicks my ass it's not a 45 year old guy with a body builder physique, it is often a 19 year old kid on an U23 development team, on his way to Cat1.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

RRRoubaix said:


> I think most people agree that the UCI is complicit in covering up the problem. Have been in the past and are still at it. Nothing will really change until there is change there.
> I agree w/ Spade that it's suspicious how there have been relatively few "other" big names caught recently. OTOH, it doesn't surprise me at all that LA is practically the only topic for the Doping Forum.
> As far as catching the guilty riders- no one is going to come forth, knowing they'll likely lose their jobs. As distasteful as it might be, an "amnesty" or "truth reconciliation" might be the only thing to bring the past bad guys to light, since the tests seem so easy to cheat.
> And we have to get the past baddies to clean up today's sport- since many of them are so involved.


+1 - The Truth and Reconciliation process needs to move forward to its conclusion - but it should end in immediate and life-long bans for anyone caught doping thereafter.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

Well, to be honest about the Testosterone crowd, I don't care. I can't control it, all I can do is control me. So if that means never reaching the box, so be it. This is not my job, this is not my living. I'll focus on the races where I can go fast via experience and training. I've won in the past at an amateur level, and that will have to be enough. 

I think I'm going to go for a ride, it's supossed to rain tomorrow, I'm burning daylight yapping here. Everyone have a good day!


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

YamaDan said:


> Well, to be honest about the Testosterone crowd, I don't care. I can't control it, all I can do is control me. So if that means never reaching the box, so be it. This is not my job, this is not my living. I'll focus on the races where I can go fast via experience and training. I've won in the past at an amateur level, and that will have to be enough.
> 
> I think I'm going to go for a ride, it's supossed to rain tomorrow, I'm burning daylight yapping here. Everyone have a good day!


Be careful not to fall into that "I won't make it up on the podium if I race clean" thingy.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

YamaDan said:


> Yeah, but now I watch wondering what drugs he's on *(Contador)*.
> 
> Here's a good Example of a rider, caught, that did NOT get his tours taken away.


Correct. He worked for JB and his support crew likely doped to the gills as well. He also denied doping. 



LostViking said:


> Took a Tour and a Giro from him...not enough?


Compared to Lance, I think he got off easy. After all, Vino still holds a Vuelta title. Totally fair, right? :idea:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

YamaDan said:


> Well, to be honest about the Testosterone crowd, I don't care. I can't control it, all I can do is control me. So if that means never reaching the box, so be it. This is not my job, this is not my living. I'll focus on the races where I can go fast via experience and training. I've won in the past at an amateur level, and that will have to be enough.
> 
> I think I'm going to go for a ride, it's supossed to rain tomorrow, I'm burning daylight yapping here. Everyone have a good day!


Given the testosterone commercials on TV and a local rider telling me that his physician suggested he take some, I wouldn't doubt that there might be some testosterone use going on. Financially, I'd think it would cost a lot of money to catch a few riders. However, other than some guys whose doctors convinced them to take testosterone, I'd like to think my area is very clean. 

If you're having trouble reaching the podium, feel free to post in the forum below where there are much fewer trolls. Much like my local racing, I'd suspect that your problems are more from sandbagging than doping. For that reason, I'm kinda forced to focus on time trialing due to minimal climbing in road races and the strong emphasis on crits.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Given the testosterone commercials on TV and a local rider telling me that his physician suggested he take some, I wouldn't doubt that there might be some testosterone use going on. Financially, I'd think it would cost a lot of money to catch a few riders. However, other than some guys whose doctors convinced them to take testosterone, I'd like to think my area is very clean.
> 
> If you're having trouble reaching the podium, feel free to post in the forum below where there are much fewer trolls. Much like my local racing, I'd suspect that your problems are more from sandbagging than doping. For that reason, I'm kinda forced to focus on time trialing due to minimal climbing in road races and the strong emphasis on crits.


Reaching the top of the podium happens for a limited time. Podium in Cat 4 and go to 3, where it gets more difficult. Same thing from 3 to 2 and 2 to 1. Getting a podium in P1/2 races--with pros in the field--is exceedingly difficult. And if someone can do it consistently then they *should* be a pro! And once they are a pro they start racing in fields of 150 riders who are all pros, who can all win races...Unless someone is a big fish in a small pond, racing local series or obscure events on the velodrome (like me) then they cannot podium forever!

Even in the small pond of masters racing, only 10% of a 30man field will podium, and it's usually the same three guys every week 

I think this blogger summed up amateur racing/doping: 

_It could happen to anyone, and it does. The ******* end is the one that looks down on people for being slow, or fat, or clumsy. It’s the end that sneers at freds and wankettes because their lives have other trajectories, other priorities, other limitations, or other blessings that supersede racing a $10k bike around an office park on Sunday.

Once you climbed into the warty anus, where there are winners and everyone else is ****, you did the logical thing: you played to win. Unfortunately, you had enough early success to make the craziness seem real. If a 5 then a 4, if a 3 then a 2, so maybe one day a 1? Then, perhaps…

Yep, you should have kept counting, because the next number in that progression is “0.”_


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Funny you should mention that. Frankie admitted that he doped well before the hospital event as well as much after. So he has been a doper all along. Seems like nothing but sour grapes when it comes to those two because there's certainly a lot of hypocrisy there. 



spade2you said:


> You mean how Frankie was taking the same stuff, too? :idea: Frankie's wife was appalled, but what was her reaction to her own husband's doping?


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> If you're having trouble reaching the podium, feel free to post in the forum below where there are much fewer trolls. Much like my local racing, I'd suspect that your problems are more from sandbagging than doping. For that reason, I'm kinda forced to focus on time trialing due to minimal climbing in road races and the strong emphasis on crits.


Yeah, I switched to Open Masters 40+.. Beginner, Sport, Expert and Pro rolled into one.. I don't have to worry about sandbagging, and it's more a skill thing here, although fitness plays a huge part of it.. 

I did end up in 4th, I lost 3rd by a mental mistake on my own, so no excuses.

I ride for fun, and only that, I have no need for short cuts or cheating.. I'm in it for the glory of my kids cheering like crazy when I come by, first or last.. it's just as loud!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> You mean how Frankie was taking the same stuff, too? :idea: Frankie's wife was appalled, but what was her reaction to her own husband's doping?


Really? Frankie did transfusions? Link?

Did Frankie also pay off the UCI and smear anyone who told truth?


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Really? Frankie did transfusions? Link?
> 
> Did Frankie also pay off the UCI and smear anyone who told truth?


He raced on USPS, it must be assumed that he did all the same things the rest of them did. He admitted to using EPO. Why would other methods not be believable? 

He also concealed the truth. They all have, and continue to.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> He raced on USPS, it must be assumed that he did all the same things the rest of them did. He admitted to using EPO. Why would other methods not be believable?
> 
> He also concealed the truth. They all have, and continue to.


Not exactly. 

Frankie has talked openly about his doping. He turned down working with Ferrari. Lance heckled him. Told Betsy Frankie could be rich if he used Ferrari. Once it was clear he was not willing to be part of the program he was marginalized, not included in the Pre Tour Training camps, and ultimately let go. They never even paid him his Tour bonus. He never transfused, never got on the the Ferrari program. Tyler confirmed all of this in his book.

Because of this he had little information to give USADA or the Media. The 1st time a reporter asked him if he doped, Juliet Mercur, he told her he did. 

Funny thing, once Frankie was gone they realized how valuable he was. Begged him to come back. He is one of the smartest guys in the sport.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Robert1 said:


> Funny you should mention that. Frankie admitted that he doped well before the hospital event as well as much after. So he has been a doper all along. Seems like nothing but sour grapes when it comes to those two because there's certainly a lot of hypocrisy there.


Don't get me wrong, I *really* enjoy revenge. What annoys me about her is she's desperately trying to make it seem like anything but revenge. 

She was appalled! APPALLED!!!! bla bla bla in front of God. yadda yadda yadda insert carefully placed tears in front of the camera. 

I went to Catholic schools, so I smelled that one from a mile away. Lance definitely shouldn't have pissed her off. That's the kind of grudge that will last beyond the grave! 



Local Hero said:


> Reaching the top of the podium happens for a limited time. Podium in Cat 4 and go to 3, where it gets more difficult. Same thing from 3 to 2 and 2 to 1. Getting a podium in P1/2 races--with pros in the field--is exceedingly difficult. And if someone can do it consistently then they *should* be a pro! And once they are a pro they start racing in fields of 150 riders who are all pros, who can all win races...Unless someone is a big fish in a small pond, racing local series or obscure events on the velodrome (like me) then they cannot podium forever!
> 
> Even in the small pond of masters racing, only 10% of a 30man field will podium, and it's usually the same three guys every week
> 
> ...


No doubt.

I have no complaints with my own racing. Sandbaggers slightly annoy me, but it's mostly being a climber in the midwest, my dislike of crits, and an annoying schedule that hold me back. 

I was in nice shape a few years back and wanted to do the Cascade Classic, but vacation denied by work. This year my fitness was set back by working a lot extra at the hospital due to rolling out a new computer system. My wife and I also had a baby. Either event by itself would have been no biggie, but the double whammy factor set my fitness back a bit. 

Regardless, I started entirely too late and I'm far from a gifted athlete. I used to have debilitating asthma as a child and meds were very obsolete compared to the stuff on the market now. I mostly use racing to keep me honest to my workout routine. It's easy to be in shape. Much harder to skip workouts if you know it means you'll be embarrassed at the next race.


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

You defend Frankie yet condemn Lance. That is funny.



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Really? Frankie did transfusions? Link?
> 
> Did Frankie also pay off the UCI and smear anyone who told truth?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Robert1 said:


> You defend Frankie yet condemn Lance. That is funny.


I'd like to think it's pretty simple. Frankie and his wife were one of the first to speak out against Lance. The enemy of one's enemy is a friend?

No doubt they would have ridden the Armstrong train and confessed near retirement if they could have. Revenge, I say!


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

You've got that right. I've wondered what's up with these three. There is definitely much more to it than anyone will ever know. Love triangle? Threesome gone bad? Who knows but she just exudes with personal hatred toward Lance. Given that her own husband by his own admission doped before and after the hospital event it's pretty obvious that she has more than just altruistic motives.




spade2you said:


> Don't get me wrong, I *really* enjoy revenge. What annoys me about her is she's desperately trying to make it seem like anything but revenge.
> 
> She was appalled! APPALLED!!!! bla bla bla in front of God. yadda yadda yadda insert carefully placed tears in front of the camera.
> 
> I went to Catholic schools, so I smelled that one from a mile away. Lance definitely shouldn't have pissed her off. That's the kind of grudge that will last beyond the grave!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Robert1 said:


> You defend Frankie yet condemn Lance. That is funny.


What is funny? Do you really think they are equals? 

Did Frankie pay off the UCI? Smear those who told the truth? Participate in an organized doping program for over a decade? Push a global media campaign based on a fraud? Encourage the public to believe increasingly absurd lies?


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

So then you have no problem with doping? That's not the issue? And by the way do you really feel you need to give negative reps to everyone who's opinion doesn't agree with your? Jeez.



Doctor Falsetti said:


> What is funny? Do you really think they are equals?
> 
> Did Frankie pay off the UCI? Smear those who told the truth? Participate in an organized doping program for over a decade? Push a global media campaign based on a fraud? Encourage the public to believe increasingly absurd lies?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Robert1 said:


> You've got that right. I've wondered what's up with these three. There is definitely much more to it than anyone will ever know. Love triangle? Threesome gone bad? Who knows but she just exudes with personal hatred toward Lance. Given that her own husband by his own admission doped before and after the hospital event it's pretty obvious that she has more than just altruistic motives.


I'd be willing to wager it's simply because of how well he did vs. how things turned out for them. He tried to silence them, which is kinda understandable (though still quite wrong) with what was at stake. 

Having gone to Catholic schools all my life, it could be just about anything that set her off and that grudge will be life long and then some. I've been on the business end of that sort of rage and will admit that almost everything about her terrified me. The same person who lied and tried to get me fired was always keen on people knowing that she just wanted a new bible for Christmas. Despite wanting a bible for Christmas, she was about as evil as they come.

I don't think there is much altruism going on with this whole disaster. Most of the riders who confessed have either been busted, were about to retire, or took a nice 6 month deal that would minimally impact their racing for next year. Lance definitely didn't treat them the best, which was quite the mistake. I kinda wonder if not letting Big George get the yellow jersey in '09 sealed the deal with that friendship.


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Sour grapes for the most part. I agree with you on the rest as well.



spade2you said:


> I'd be willing to wager it's simply because of how well he did vs. how things turned out for them. He tried to silence them, which is kinda understandable (though still quite wrong) with what was at stake.
> 
> Having gone to Catholic schools all my life, it could be just about anything that set her off and that grudge will be life long and then some. I've been on the business end of that sort of rage and will admit that almost everything about her terrified me. The same person who lied and tried to get me fired was always keen on people knowing that she just wanted a new bible for Christmas. Despite wanting a bible for Christmas, she was about as evil as they come.
> 
> I don't think there is much altruism going on with this whole disaster. Most of the riders who confessed have either been busted, were about to retire, or took a nice 6 month deal that would minimally impact their racing for next year. Lance definitely didn't treat them the best, which was quite the mistake. I kinda wonder if not letting Big George get the yellow jersey in '09 sealed the deal with that friendship.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Robert1 said:


> So then you have no problem with doping? That's not the issue?


Most recognize that doping is not the sole measure of a person. 

When you spew nonsense about threesomes and love triangles you shouldn't be surprised if it hurts your rep


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Most recognize that doping is not the sole measure of a person.
> 
> When you spew nonsense about threesomes and love triangles you shouldn't be surprised if it hurts your rep


So, now he's _trolling_?


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Doping is the entire crux of the matter! I never said there was a threesome or love triangle as a matter of fact. I'm simply suggesting based on their past relationship(s) which were deeply personal there is much more to Betsy then pure altruism for the sport of cycling. Do you not believe this? Let's look at the facts. The 3 of them were best of friends that spent a lot of time together at one point in time. Clearly something went wrong in their personal relationship(s) beyond just finding out that Lance was doping to turn her into such a crusader. Asking threesome, love triangle was just me trying to be colorful to highlight that there is much more involved than the public will ever know. Personally, IMHO. I believe Betsy probably knew all along that both Lance and Frankie were doping and that a big part of her crusade was spurred by sour grapes. It doesn't excuse what Lance, Frankie or any of the dopers did, but it doesn't exactly portray her in the best light either.



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Most recognize that doping is not the sole measure of a person.
> 
> When you spew nonsense about threesomes and love triangles you shouldn't be surprised if it hurts your rep


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I'm on the fence if there was something deeper than the sour grapes. Could be a lot of things. Hell, could even be something really small and she's just an angry, vengeful person. Like I said, she scares me!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Robert1 said:


> Doping is the entire crux of the matter! I never said there was a threesome or love triangle as a matter of fact. I'm simply suggesting based on their past relationship(s) which were deeply personal there is much more to Betsy then pure altruism for the sport of cycling. Do you not believe this? Let's look at the facts. The 3 of them were best of friends that spent a lot of time together at one point in time. Clearly something went wrong in their personal relationship(s) beyond just finding out that Lance was doping to turn her into such a crusader. Asking threesome, love triangle was just me trying to be colorful to highlight that there is much more involved than the public will ever know. Personally, IMHO. I believe Betsy probably knew all along that both Lance and Frankie were doping and that a big part of her crusade was spurred by sour grapes. It doesn't excuse what Lance, Frankie or any of the dopers did, but it doesn't exactly portray her in the best light either.


Ahhh, I see. You made it up just to get a response. 

Yes, something went wrong. Frankie refused to get on the program and as lance is a black or white person he and Johan actively damaged his career. When they did not commit perjury he only increased his vindictive smearing. 

No threesome, love triangle, just Armstrong's obsessive, vindictive nature


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Ahhh, I see. You made it up just to get a response.
> 
> Yes, something went wrong. Frankie refused to get on the program and as lance is a black or white person he and Johan actively damaged his career. When they did not commit perjury he only increased his vindictive smearing.
> 
> No threesome, love triangle, just Armstrong's obsessive, vindictive nature


Amazing. 

To anyone who questions this. YOU ARE TROLLING. :thumbsup:


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Well given that Frankie admitted to doping as early as 1995 when riding for team motorola as well as doping for US postal in 1999, I'm not clear what about the "program" he supposedly objected to because he certainly wasn't averse to EPO use. Am I allowed to say that?



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Ahhh, I see. You made it up just to get a response.
> 
> Yes, something went wrong. Frankie refused to get on the program and as lance is a black or white person he and Johan actively damaged his career. When they did not commit perjury he only increased his vindictive smearing.
> 
> No threesome, love triangle, just Armstrong's obsessive, vindictive nature


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Robert1 said:


> Well given that Frankie admitted to doping as early as 1995 when riding for team motorola as well as doping for US postal in 1999, I'm not clear what about the "program" he supposedly objected to because he certainly wasn't averse to EPO use. Am I allowed to say that?


Agreed. It would be interesting to know the real back story, but it's another he said she said. Frankly, I wouldn't trust any parties at this point. 

My predicted response to your post:
Keep trolling. You've lost all your credibility here! Throw in something condescending, but slightly within the confines of the rules to bait you to say something that gets you a warning. 

What am I on? I'm on my bike. And coffee. Perhaps too much coffee!


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Frankie doped for a while in secret, knowing there'd be hell to pay if and when Betsy found out. She did, he quit, and after a while he was off the team.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Robert1 said:


> Well given that Frankie admitted to doping as early as 1995 when riding for team motorola as well as doping for US postal in 1999, I'm not clear what about the "program" he supposedly objected to because he certainly wasn't averse to EPO use. Am I allowed to say that?


 I suggest you read Tyler's and get back to us.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Frankie doped for a while in secret, knowing there'd be hell to pay if and when Betsy found out. She did, he quit, and after a while he was off the team.


I would almost wager money that she might have thrown a dish or two. 



Doctor Falsetti said:


> I suggest you read Tyler's and get back to us.


Just because it's in a book doesn't make it 100% true. Fox Mulder said it best. Trust no one.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Once it was clear he was not willing to be part of the program he was marginalized, not included in the Pre Tour Training camps, and ultimately let go.


Are you referring to his exit from the US Postal Service team? If so, I was under the impression he left on his own because he didn't like the offer they gave him?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Betsy should replace McQuaid.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Did Frankie also pay off the UCI and smear anyone who told truth?


Years ago people hated Armstrong because "he's a doper." Now we know that they we all dopers. So singling out Armstrong for doping doesn't make sense. The new reason to hate Armstrong is because he was mean.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Local Hero said:


> Years ago people hated Armstrong because "he's a doper." Now we know that they we all dopers. So singling out Armstrong for doping doesn't make sense. The new reason to hate Armstrong is because he was mean.


Really? I thought the time line was more along the lines of some were blissfully unaware which eventually evolved to they were all dopers except Armstrong, and now we know he was no exception


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Years ago people hated Armstrong because "he's a doper." Now we know that they we all dopers. So singling out Armstrong for doping doesn't make sense. The new reason to hate Armstrong is because he was mean.


If he was such a jerk, how come nobody put him in his place? Seems it wouldn't take much effort to learn him to be nicer, especially given the amount of other riders. Chasing down Simeoni in '04? Do something about it!!!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Really? I thought the time line was more along the lines of some were blissfully unaware which eventually evolved to they were all dopers except Armstrong, and now we know he was no exception


Definitely. The defense went from "He's innocent" to "everyone else is jealous" to "never failed a test" to "they were all doing it. Who will take his spot?" to "Let him race!" to "Why are you being so mean? Armstrong cures cancer. Leave him alone!" and "We still love you, Lance!" finally we see steadfast Armstrong supporters arguing incoherent word salad.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Definitely. The defense went from "He's innocent" to "everyone else is jealous" to "never failed a test" to "they were all doing it. Who will take his spot?" to "Let him race!" to "Why are you being so mean? Armstrong cures cancer. Leave him alone!" and "We still love you, Lance!" finally we see steadfast Armstrong supporters arguing incoherent word salad.


The haters, though more numerous these days and in these parts, are equal but opposite direction. It's like complaining about Fox news then going to CNN.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> Years ago people hated Armstrong because "he's a doper." Now we know that they we all dopers. So singling out Armstrong for doping doesn't make sense. The new reason to hate Armstrong is because he was mean.


When did "Years ago" Start? Armstrong's reputation as petty, vindictive, weirdo stretches back decades. This fact is only new to those new the sport or the willfully ignorant


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> When did "Years ago" Start? Armstrong's reputation as petty, vindictive, weirdo stretches back decades. This fact is only new to those new the sport or the willfully ignorant


Or their ability to do something about it was woefully too little.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Or their ability to do something about it was woefully too little.


Did you expect Carmicheal to put him in therapy when he was the U23 national team coach?

With the exception of a couple years Lance has always been an ass, this fact is not new. The sport ignored for many reasons. Because he made money for them, because he shredded anyone who disagreed with the myth, because many fans eagerly wanted the myth to be true. 

Otherwise decent people sat by while he destroyed people with the help of a well crafted media campaign and legions of eager groupies who jumped to defend the myth and "Protect' their hero


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