# Kuota=Krap; options and opinions?



## metricEee (Aug 28, 2002)

So I've had a Kredo for a few months, and it has started to crack on both sides, where the seat stays and the dropouts connect. I've included a picture of the right side, but the left side is doing the exact same thing and the cracks look identical. It's a long story, but Kuota isn't planning on honoring the warranty since the shop that sold me the bike sold it over the internet and Kuota claims that is a violation of the warranty. I'm pissed for sure, but not the point of this message.
To me, it really looks like it might only be a cosmetic crack in the paint, clearcoat layer. Especially since both sides are doing the identical thing. Am I grasping at straws here, and the reality is I now have a several thousand dollar paperweight?
Calfee said they won't fix it for liability reasons, but were able to direct me to someone who said they could fix it. Anyone have any comments on the repairability of something like this?


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## StreamerT10 (Oct 6, 2007)

Looks to be much more than a clearcoat - "superficial" crack. I wouldn't ride it.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

is the d/o carbon, or just covered? is that a typical build where the seatstays are screwed (this frame looks like a rivet job) into the d/os? if yes, not surprising that the clearcoat would crack around like that... if not, I would ditch that frame quick. btw, never heard of kuota other that these boards


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

Contact Brent at Rue sports. Email him the picture. I'm sure he can and will repair it.

http://www.ruesports.com/


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you should consult re the warranty issue: if the shop is an authorized reseller I don't see why Kuota has a solid case for not honoring the warranty unless there is specific language in their agreement stating the shop can't sell them online. In that case, I'd think the burden falls to the shop. If they didn't disclose this, they might be accountable. 

The 'crack' does look suspiciously like a joint separating--since it is happening on both sides, maybe it's just cosmetic, though the problem is if there's real separation there's going to be a gap that will oxidize. For having a bike for only a few months, that looks like a pretty significant defect I'd want remedied.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> you should consult re the warranty issue: if the shop is an authorized reseller I don't see why Kuota has a solid case for not honoring the warranty unless there is specific language in their agreement stating the shop can't sell them online. In that case, I'd think the burden falls to the shop. If they didn't disclose this, they might be accountable.
> 
> The 'crack' does look suspiciously like a joint separating--since it is happening on both sides, maybe it's just cosmetic, though the problem is if there's real separation there's going to be a gap that will oxidize. For having a bike for only a few months, that looks like a pretty significant defect I'd want remedied.


I would not jump to conclusions so quickly. The Poster said he bought the frame "over the Internet". Not a Shop. Which translates as: *"I bought it on eBay." *For this reason Kuota is not going to honor their Authorized Dealer Warranty like they always do. 

Now if Calfee won't touch the frame for "liability" reasons. Then they know something more that they are not telling you. Basically, that the frame is toast and you indeed have purchased yourself a "several thousand dollar paperweight".


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

actually, he said "the shop that sold me the bike sold it over the internet." The issue is 1) are they an authorized dealer, 2) is he the original owner (as most warranties do not transfer from one owner to another. If he bought it from someone who was the original owner from ebay then he's out of warranty luck.


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

*Anybody know the Kredo well?*

Most carbon bikes have aluminum lugs/dropouts at the seat/chainstay junction, joined with a 5mm allen bolt. This looks like the typical deal, but with carbon or carbon-wrapped lugs. Is that the back of a bolt sticking thru the two pieces? 

I don't know Kuotas, but if the lugs (one attached to chainstay, the other to seat stay) are two separate pieces held together with a bolt, I'd expect them to flex and develop a crack between the apparent carbon wrap.

But what do I know. I wouldn't ride it myself until I knew what was going on.


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

*[whoops]*

I just re-queried every question FatTireFred did.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> actually, he said "the shop that sold me the bike sold it over the internet." The issue is 1) are they an authorized dealer, 2) is he the original owner (as most warranties do not transfer from one owner to another. If he bought it from someone who was the original owner from ebay then he's out of warranty luck.


How many AUTHORIZED KUOTA SHOPS are allowed to sell frames on the Internet? The answer: ZERO. Patrice over at Eurospek FORBIDS this 110%. If you buy a Kuota over the Internet, the warranty is NULL AND VOID.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

master2129 said:


> Now if Calfee won't touch the frame for "liability" reasons. Then they know something more that they are not telling you. Basically, that the frame is toast and you indeed have purchased yourself a "several thousand dollar paperweight".



+1....Calfee will tackle just about any damage...


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## esbowen (Oct 6, 2007)

Sablotny said:


> Most carbon bikes have aluminum lugs/dropouts at the seat/chainstay junction, joined with a 5mm allen bolt. This looks like the typical deal, but with carbon or carbon-wrapped lugs. Is that the back of a bolt sticking thru the two pieces?
> 
> I don't know Kuotas, but if the lugs (one attached to chainstay, the other to seat stay) are two separate pieces held together with a bolt, I'd expect them to flex and develop a crack between the apparent carbon wrap.
> 
> But what do I know. I wouldn't ride it myself until I knew what was going on.


Yeah, I would have to agree. That is probably aluminum under some carbon wrap, especially given that bolt. It's an odd place to put wrap, so the crack there is not surprising at all. Why didn't Kuota just leave exposed aluminum as is? Certainly there must be other Kredo owners who have experienced the same thing. I'm no expert, but my guess is this is cosmetic and won't lead anything catastrophic, but I wouldn't be riding it anymore until I knew for sure.


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## Terrapin (Aug 1, 2002)

At Calfee Design's website it says this:

"We don't repair problems with frames that are a result of bad design. This includes most aluminum-to-carbon bonding."

related?


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## metricEee (Aug 28, 2002)

as far as I know, everything in the junction is carbon, which leaves me a little confused because it clearly has a bolt/rivet through which seems to be very typical for a carbon stay/metal dropout. The fact that both right and left side have a perfect half circle crack right below the "bolt" seems really suspicious to me as well. But I agree with the poster that said if Calfee doesn't want anything to do with it, it is probably a big deal. I should follow up with them and just hear their reasoning, which could influence my actions to say the least. I'm sure I'm still in the denial stage, and the fact is that I have a very expensive frame that I only had for a few months that is now worthless, and there is nothin I can do about it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

actually, there are lots of places online selling them, including their top Kalibur dealer in the US (link below). I was just trying to lay out the warranty issues - and if Kuota didn't allow it, a reseller would expose themselves if they didn't disclose it, which is something the OP was asking about (whose at fault?).

http://www.all3sports.com/index.php?mName=kuota&jsenabled=1&osCsid=a37283bd0ccb03f5f1ea6efa68f1de81


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## manhattanproj (Jul 13, 2006)

did you buy it new? maybe the place where you've bought it did some tricky stuff to them and didn't tell you.


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## Art853 (May 30, 2003)

Good point. I don't see them in shops too often. I wonder if the majority of their bikes are sold online.


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## Slartibartfast (Jul 22, 2007)

Kuota is a very common brand in the North Texas "peleton." Several riding buddies swear by them -- I've never heard a complaint; nothing but praise. All of those I've seen were bought at my LBS (there are two flagship Kuota dealers in the Fort Worth / Dallas area). I'll ask if they've seen this problem before.

Back to the OP: even if Kuota won't honor the warranty, will they repair it at your expense? Have you shown them the damage and asked their opinion? They're bound to know the answers to all the speculation on this thread.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

*Kuota...*

A shop in Boulder that I trust discontinued carrying the brand after only having them for a year. The owner said they had too many issues with quality control. Originally they wanted a lower price point carbon mfg but I guess it wasn't worth the hassle. 

On the OP's issue, I am suprised that Kuota can't or won't explain what is going on with the frame. If it is an issue of cabon wrap over metal, they should say so and claim it is safe to ride. OTOH, maybe their method of handling the issue is tells the story. Good luck metricEee! Keep us advised of how it turns out. Ride ON!!!


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## metricEee (Aug 28, 2002)

yea, communication with Kuota hasn't been awe inspiring to say the least. I can't even get them to give me in writing why my warranty isn't being honored. They told me flat out if I want that, I have to get a lawyer. So getting them to be honest with me, and tell me that this is a common cosmetic problem that they have seen, or this is a serious structural problem just ain't gonna happen. I can get it repaired for a reasonable price which is much less hassle and much cheaper than taking Kuota and/or the shop to court, but now people have me worried that this is a pretty serious crack- especially if Calfee won't touch it, and maybe I should be moving on to a new bike.
There is also the issue of brand loyalty now. Since no one around here has even heard of Kuota, I'm pretty much a rollin billboard for them which was something I didn't mind doing cause I initially really liked the bike. But now after their handling of this, I really don't feel like helping them gain a marketshare. If the bike had made it even a year I might be able to stomach getting a new frame, but a few months really sits bad with me.


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## SAIG (Dec 28, 2004)

"We don't repair problems with frames that are a result of bad design. This includes most aluminum-to-carbon bonding." -- Calfee

Aren't most drop-outs on carbon frames aluminum? 

thanks in advance.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*reason # 4317*

that shelling out huge $$ for carbon frames for the recreational cyclist is teh stupids


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## Terrapin (Aug 1, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> that shelling out huge $$ for carbon frames for the recreational cyclist is teh stupids


Yet shelling out $40 - $50,000 by the recreational motorist is considered just dandy.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the fact that it is a 'crack' at a junction suggests it's not a deep structural issue but more a matter of oxidizing at the junction. Carbon-alu interfaces are known to have this problem--one of the main problems with older Looks that used alu lugs. You should be able to get a sense for whether it's a real problem by applying some pressure to it with your hand--does it feel like it's loose at all or any play in the seam? If it's not working loose, it's likely just a cosmetic issue at least for now. 

Try sending a letter to cyclingnews and some other places (or Velonews Moinske) asking how to deal with a warranty issue (naming Kuota) but not trashing them for now to see if it gets any attention.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I never said that did I?*



Terrapin said:


> Yet shelling out $40 - $50,000 by the recreational motorist is considered just dandy.


and if I did, at least a 40 or 50 K auto ain't gonna crack and fall apart and turn into a paperweight

btw my car is a 17K P/U truck that is 10 years old and 100K miles


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## Terrapin (Aug 1, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> and if I did, at least a 40 or 50 K auto ain't gonna crack and fall apart and turn into a paperweight


LOL. I've crashed my bike twice and a car once, guess which one turned into the paperweight? I've also had a car's fuel system fail, and seemed to, you know, achieved _paper weightiness_ pretty quick.



> btw my car is a 17K P/U truck that is 10 years old and 100K miles


Good to know. Thanks for sharing.


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## manandjoe (Apr 14, 2006)

I *would use the frame as a Coat Hanger*:thumbsup: 
Safety first


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## Art853 (May 30, 2003)

My new hobby is creating paintings in triangle shapes to be framed by old frames. Art for the cycling enthusiast.


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## Slartibartfast (Jul 22, 2007)

metricEee said:


> yea, communication with Kuota hasn't been awe inspiring to say the least.


Metric,

Are you talking with Kuota North America, or with the techies in Italy? The reason I ask is it wouldn't surprise me if the folks in Canada don't even know the answer to your question. i assume (maybe wrongly) that the guys that design the bikes are at the HQ back in Italy.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

metricEee said:


> yea, communication with Kuota hasn't been awe inspiring to say the least. I can't even get them to give me in writing why my warranty isn't being honored. They told me flat out if I want that, I have to get a lawyer. So getting them to be honest with me, and tell me that this is a common cosmetic problem that they have seen, or this is a serious structural problem just ain't gonna happen. I can get it repaired for a reasonable price which is much less hassle and much cheaper than taking Kuota and/or the shop to court, but now people have me worried that this is a pretty serious crack- especially if Calfee won't touch it, and maybe I should be moving on to a new bike.
> There is also the issue of brand loyalty now. Since no one around here has even heard of Kuota, I'm pretty much a rollin billboard for them which was something I didn't mind doing cause I initially really liked the bike. But now after their handling of this, I really don't feel like helping them gain a marketshare. If the bike had made it even a year I might be able to stomach getting a new frame, but a few months really sits bad with me.


Metric EUROSPEK in Canada is tough to deal with. I have heard this time and time again from lots of riders. And yes, they can be rude. But don't take it personal. They're FRENCH. They can't help it. The same goes for Argon 18. Don't try to get them to honor a warranty on their frames if something goes wrong. You'll be kicking against the pricks. (no pun intended)

If I were you, take the bike apart and get it fixed. Then when it's all said and done, pop it up on eBay and sell it. If the fix is good, then it will be better than new. Some may have an ethical problem with this suggestion, but if the frameset has been fixed to better than new, you've done the new Buyer a sincere favor. Then go get yourself a frame you have 110% confidence in.


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## unknownrash (Dec 25, 2005)

metricEee said:


> yea, communication with Kuota hasn't been awe inspiring to say the least. I can't even get them to give me in writing why my warranty isn't being honored. They told me flat out if I want that, I have to get a lawyer. .


What a bunch of krap. What kind of a CS attitude is that? Hey guy we got your money, you got our krappy bike so f off. I say file a complaint with the BBB and the attorney general. Even if you get nowhere you can hassle the sh!t out of them. I would also lay down some pressure on the bike shop and see if that gets you anywhere. You have nothing to lose. I would be livid if I were in your shoes.


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

Some clever metal frame manufacturer needs to come up with a whole series of ads called "Where carbon frames go when they die/get retired." The coat hanger is a good start.


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## djg (Nov 27, 2001)

metricEee said:


> yea, communication with Kuota hasn't been awe inspiring to say the least. I can't even get them to give me in writing why my warranty isn't being honored. They told me flat out if I want that, I have to get a lawyer. So getting them to be honest with me, and tell me that this is a common cosmetic problem that they have seen, or this is a serious structural problem just ain't gonna happen. I can get it repaired for a reasonable price which is much less hassle and much cheaper than taking Kuota and/or the shop to court, but now people have me worried that this is a pretty serious crack- especially if Calfee won't touch it, and maybe I should be moving on to a new bike.
> There is also the issue of brand loyalty now. Since no one around here has even heard of Kuota, I'm pretty much a rollin billboard for them which was something I didn't mind doing cause I initially really liked the bike. But now after their handling of this, I really don't feel like helping them gain a marketshare. If the bike had made it even a year I might be able to stomach getting a new frame, but a few months really sits bad with me.


Well, given the location of the cracks, it really could be cosmetic, but I cannot tell for sure and, ideally, somebody with the company or, at least, experience in building/repairing CF would look it over closely.

As for the warranty, I don't know in this particular situation, but both the shop and the manufacturer could be liable independent of what they want or tell you. Certainly, you could hire an attorney and a responsible local lawyer will be able to give you good counsel about the issue and what it would take to settle it. OTOH, most jurisdictions have something on the order of small claims court to deal with claims of a few grand or so. If you're getting no satisfaction, you could go to the public library, get some information on how to file a claim, and then walk into court with your pictures and whatever other documentation you can muster -- receipt, time-line, and correspondence with the vendor and distributor. I'm not saying this is what you should do, or that it would work out, or that it would necessarily be easy to get a judgment enforced. But such courts exist to give everyday folks a shot at civil justice on non-earth-shattering claims that don't necessarily involve complex legal issues -- it might be worth thinking about.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*oh and I forgot*



Terrapin said:


> LOL. I've crashed my bike twice and a car once, guess which one turned into the paperweight? I've also had a car's fuel system fail, and seemed to, you know, achieved _paper weightiness_ pretty quick.
> 
> Good to know. Thanks for sharing.


it sits there while I bike to work

though comes in handy hauling 2 bikes, trainer, spare wheels and my gear to cx races

I've crashed plenty of things

I've never spent $4K on something to have it wind up useless in a year of 2


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> it sits there while I bike to work
> 
> though comes in handy hauling 2 bikes, trainer, spare wheels and my gear to cx races
> 
> ...


Golly, miyagi-san, that must happen to all CF frames. Your wealth of material and frame construction knowledge must certainly be revered throughout the cycling world. I guess you really can become a master of things by reading the appropriate internet forum.


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## the Inbred (Feb 28, 2004)

why isn't the shop helping you out at all?


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd file a civil suite against the shop, as the dealer that should replace the defective frameset. Although, filing against Kuota, may get better results. It'll cost them a minumum of 5 grand to get lawyer involved.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*no Forrest*

it comes from being a cyclist since Super Record was the penultimate gruppo
it comes from being involved in advertising and marketing as a career
it comes from watching industry cost cutting methods get spun into 'better' by their marketing depts
it comes from watching the comings and goings of such cutting edge things like 'bio-pace'
it comes from watching lugged construction be called antiquated and outdated and then being revived for the assemblage of CF pipes (but for the opposite reason) as 'best'
it comes from that every odd sunday when I pull my 23 year old bike out for a Sunday ride and it still makes me smile
I tell ya what, in another 20 years I can't wait to hear about the new retro guys riding their vintage plastic
it comes from watching riders who would most likely not even be classified as Veloce level, thinking the NEED a sub 16 lb $8000 machine that may have a shelf life of 3 years


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> it comes from being a cyclist since Super Record was the penultimate gruppo
> it comes from being involved in advertising and marketing as a career
> it comes from watching industry cost cutting methods get spun into 'better' by their marketing depts
> it comes from watching the comings and goings of such cutting edge things like 'bio-pace'
> ...


Well, dang, yer just the go-to guy then, ain't ya? I'll bet yer phone just rings off the hook, what with all the designers and engineers wantin' to know, from you, what really works. Dang, yer just full of knowledge, ain't ya.

Too bad zero of that knowledge has anything to do with technical bits, design, materials, etc. Internet mythology has prolly been one of the greatest things for you, what with how it helps verify the faulty assumptions you carry.

No doubt, yer a hero to many.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

Kuota is off my list forever.


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## Terrapin (Aug 1, 2002)

Forrest Root said:


> No doubt, yer a hero to many.


The hipster fixie crowd no doubt _adores_ him. d00d, st33l is re/-\L!!


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## wasfast (Feb 3, 2004)

I think your original thought about it being clear coat cracking is correct. Is there any actual movement at the joint? 

As far as the dealer fixing/manufacturer etc, someone should be able to advise you on the options. Seems a bit odd.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*and the industry*



Terrapin said:


> The hipster fixie crowd no doubt _adores_ him. d00d, st33l is re/-\L!!


needs cookie cutter, fad hopping disposable bike loving fools to stay in business
so thanx

gee and how are all those Look, Colnago bikes made?


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## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*These "voided" warranties.....*

are just crap, this is the 2nd story of this same nature I have read in the past week. Last one was for a trainer. Manufacture voided the warranty because it was sold over the internet by a dealer.

I know you did not want to hear about this, but my A$$ would be fighting with someone to pay for the repair/replacement - either the manufacture...and I would be contacting ALL the branches up to the president. As well as the shop that sold you the bike. If they sold you the bike and did not fully explain to you that because you were buying it over the internet and your warranty was now voided - they pretty much implied that the warranty was still valid.....and if the manufacture voids the warranty - I would be hitting the shop up for the cost of the repairs. Not sure if taking both parties to small claims court is an option (value limits and I don't know the rules of the court), but at least they will not show and you'll have a win on paper that you can send them as the start of a legal document.

Good luck with your new wall ornament 

Michael





metricEee said:


> So I've had a Kredo for a few months, and it has started to crack on both sides, where the seat stays and the dropouts connect. I've included a picture of the right side, but the left side is doing the exact same thing and the cracks look identical. It's a long story, but Kuota isn't planning on honoring the warranty since the shop that sold me the bike sold it over the internet and Kuota claims that is a violation of the warranty. I'm pissed for sure, but not the point of this message.
> To me, it really looks like it might only be a cosmetic crack in the paint, clearcoat layer. Especially since both sides are doing the identical thing. Am I grasping at straws here, and the reality is I now have a several thousand dollar paperweight?
> Calfee said they won't fix it for liability reasons, but were able to direct me to someone who said they could fix it. Anyone have any comments on the repairability of something like this?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*let me re-phrase*

when you work the pits of the US Nat CX Championships and the guy taking the Stars and Stripes home does it on lugged steel

when you attend the Redlands classic and notice many domestic Pros riding combinations of Ultegra / Dura Ace or record / Chorus

when you get to examine the bike of the top woman racer in the world and see parts saying Chorus all over her bike

you realize the bike you throw a leg over is 10x the rider you can ever be.

do any of you race? have you ever? What is your USCF Cat level?

the reality is, most folks, even those with Cat 3 licenses are recreational riders

most non racing recreational riders who put in sub 10,000 miles a year would be better suited on bikes with less racy geometry and more moderate spec. They could use the money they save to hire a coach, buy another bike, take a bike vacation. The industry has recognized this by now producing 'comfort sport' rides like the Roubaix. 

if you just do some light weekly rides and are a weekend warrior you really don't NEED a full D/A Race rig. By all means, buy it, just recognize there are other bikes that may have suited you better for far less $$. Second, recognize that you also don't need to upgrade your equipment every 2 years, if you want to, again by all means. The industry depends upon it. What I'm saying is, most of us (myself included even on my aging rides) have nicer bikes than we will ever be as riders. If domestic pros and elite women are riding level 2 componentry than most of us should do just fine with with level 3.

oh and I'm not the luddite you think I am. I have both Steel and Aluminum bikes. I run both Shimano and Campagnolo. My fixed gear is only ridden at the velodrome which is blocks from my home.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

According to an inside source wanting to set this thread in the right direction:

"This was not a simple "online" purchase... It was an Ebay purchase, well below wholesale. And the retailer did clarify to the customer that they were not an approved dealer and this was not a warranted product but a final sale.... 

And Kuota agreed to inspect and fix the bike from the start. But they refused to accept full responsibility for charges that might occure..."

I'm only the messenger on this one but you can feel free to shoot me!

Is there a link to the auction?


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## Terrapin (Aug 1, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> you realize the bike you throw a leg over is 10x the rider you can ever be.


So. F**king. What.

If cycling is your dominant sport/hobby, why not spend money for something that both performs better, is maybe lighter, or just makes you feel like a million bucks.

I was taking photographs of surfers this weekend in Newport, RI, and some guy next to me had a 400MM/2.8 Canon lens that cost $7,000. I would never spend that much for a lens, but that's his favorite hobby, and he'll spend the money on it.

What. Do. You. Care?!



> do any of you race? have you ever? What is your USCF Cat level?


LOL. The fallback of the defeated. Questioning qualifications on the internet. Um...yeah...I'm a Pro Rider for the Cofidis team. You haven't heard of me yet, as the team is keeping me secret while I reach 8 watts/kg in sustained power output.



> My fixed gear is only ridden at the velodrome which is blocks from my home.


Yeah? Well, I have a _windtunnel_ in my living room, and a velodrome in my backyard! Yeah...that's the ticket. Take THAT _uber_-hipster!


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## PezTech (Nov 6, 2007)

Just for clearing up....

This was a thread at WW too.



After offering to help the OP (just asked for a PM to help clear him up), I got no reply, so called Kuota's distributor (Euro-Spek) and also know the retailer (small world...)

Kuota new exactly who I was speaking about, as it's not like they have a lot of problems... They offered to take the frame back, inspect and fix it. But that they would not process this gray frame as warranty and the OP would likely have some cost.

This was not a simple internet sale... Kuota's distributor have no problem with dealers selling on line at all. But they don't apply warranty to frames they may not have handled or that have been rolling round as display or demo or the like and or were not run through their doors (gray market).

According to the retailer:

This was an EBAY dump of 2005 Kredo. Not simply an "online sale" as they would have no problem handling warranty for a regular purchase.

The retailer states that they did indicate that they were not an authorized Kuota Dealer and this was a "final sale" frame, with no warranty.




Sorry for popping in, but I heard this was here and thought it only fair to Kuota...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*you've made my point*



Terrapin said:


> So. F**king. What.
> 
> If cycling is your dominant sport/hobby, why not spend money for something that both performs better, is maybe lighter, or just makes you feel like a million bucks.
> 
> I was taking photographs of surfers this weekend in Newport, RI, and some guy next to me had a 400MM/2.8 Canon lens that cost $7,000. I would never spend that much for a lens, but that's his favorite hobby, and he'll spend the money on it.


it is your 'hobby' and BY ALL MEANS spend as much as you like (see my above post)

if dropping 3-5K on a frame every 3 years is in your budget BY ALL MEANS do so, the industry depends upon it

if it is a stretch for you and when said 3-5K frame breaks and you are stuck with a 3-5K paperweight don't act shocked. 

you are missing my point, it isn't about hipster, it is about value. HiZoot Carbon bikes are cool but to the average consumer are not worth the $. If you have the loot, or don't mind going into debt by all means DO IT. just don't whine when they break. It has been known to happen, this isn't the first such posting on the subject.

What I'm saying is the average rider doesn't NEED a $5K CF frame with Top o the Line Parts. It is a question of CHOICE, as I showed (which is the point you seem to miss) many pros get by with much less. So if you buy such items and they fail that was YOUR CHOICE. So quit whining. Next time better check the warrany issues before pulling the trigger.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

*Additional Point*



PezTech said:


> Just for clearing up....
> This was a thread at WW too.
> After offering to help the OP (just asked for a PM to help clear him up), I got no reply, so called Kuota's distributor (Euro-Spek) and also know the retailer (small world...)
> Kuota new exactly who I was speaking about, as it's not like they have a lot of problems... They offered to take the frame back, inspect and fix it. But that they would not process this gray frame as warranty and the OP would likely have some cost.
> ...


I recently bought a 2007 Kuota Kredo from an online retailer. When I questioned them about frame warranty they said Kuota would honor the warranty as long as it was from an authorized dealer. This was confirmed from Kuota North America.

I also want to support PezTech's post by stating that my Kredo looks different than the posted picture, suggesting a different year model. Also, questioning the statement about a few months worth of riding. 

Maybe the OP could post a revised thread with all pertinent information reported.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

it's a surly thread all over again! fasten your seatbelts folks...


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## metricEee (Aug 28, 2002)

*sorry for the long one, but...*

10 minutes before this bike was sent to me, it was sitting in the floor of a bike shop that is a Kuota dealer. This is a fact. I know for a fact that Kuota North America knows this information because they have talked to the dealer who sold me the bike, both Kuota and the dealer have confirmed this. The shop, as many others do, decided to sell new old stock that they were having problems moving on Ebay. Prior to purchasing the bike, I contacted the seller and asked him what about the warranty. To which the dealer told me he had no idea why I wouldn’t have a warranty (I still have this email and if you think I am lying I can send you a copy if you PM me). So if he did indeed tell Kuota that he explicitly stated that this was a bike with no warranty, then he is lying to stay out of trouble with them, and like I said, I can prove it to anyone who doesn’t believe me, I looked long and hard at anything I could find at Kuota about the warranty before I purchased the bike, and I found absolutely nothing that said I wouldn’t have a warranty if I bought the bike from a shop on ebay. In hind sight I should have contacted Kuota North America, but it never even dawned on me that as the original owner of the bike that I would have a problem. Was I naïve, again in hindsight, probably. So this is where we are from my standpoint. This bike, which I built myself so I can tell you that it was brand new, has developed cracks after a few months of use. Kuota north america knows for a fact that this bike isn’t a counterfeit bike or some of the other things that some posters are claiming. They sold this bike to the shop that sold it to me. Because he sold it in a manner that violates their agreement, Kuota isn’t warrantying the frame to me. This may be legal as far as Kuota North America thinks, but to me it seems like they are hiding behind a lawyer instead of standing behind their product, and this to me is not a great way to do business. Others may disagree, and that is obviously your right. But from a completely logical standpoint, I don’t understand how there can be a difference in the expectation of this product based on if I bought it on sale from the shop in Arizona on vacation, or if I purchased it in the manner I did. And from a moral standpoint, Kuota got their full money from the dealer for this frame, and I don’t see how they now have no responsibility to stand behind it because of how it was sold. I’m sure I’m seeing the situation in simple black and white terms, and am obviously biased since I am on the short end of the stick here. All I can say is if I was running a business and shirked my responsibilities based on a technicality, god help me if my Grandma found out cause she would rip me a new one for behaving like that.
To further respond to some of the statements that have been posted here, all I can say is your claim to the events is different than mine. Unfortunately, much of this I can’t back up because the second Kuota said they were not going to honor the warranty, they would not engage in any written communication. It is possible that Nadia was trying to simply give me the bad news in person, but I got the feeling that this wasn’t their first rodeo and it was a calculated move. Again, just my opinion and it is obviously biased based on the fact I don’t have a bike without cracks in it. But Kuota did not immediately offer to inspect or repair my frame for my cost as posted by someone in the “know” here. They told me that it wasn’t their problem, that it was up to the shop that sold it to me to deal with (which is also probably true from a legal standpoint). I had to basically beg them to do anything to help me out since I felt that I was being punished for something the dealer did wrong, which was frustrating because I chose this bike because I liked it, and after riding it for a few months I really liked it and wanted to keep riding it, but it seemed like Kuota was going out of their way to move me off their product. After a couple of pleas, they did agree to have their guy look at it, but refused to give me even a ball park estimate for the repair. Since it was becoming obvious at this point that they didn’t have my interest in mind at all, I was worried that I would have to pay for customs to ship my frame to Canada and back again, only to find out that they were going to charge me 4x more than people here said they could do it, so I did not take them up on their offer. I have also asked Nadia repeatedly for a written explanation of exactly why the warranty was not being honored which I don’t think is an unrealistic request, she skirted the issue for awhile, and then when I finally pinned her down, she said flat out they would only give it to me if a lawyer requested it. So guess what, I did. And to date they have been ignoring the requests from my lawyer as well. However, in defense of Kuota, I know from the years of living in Ontario that mail between the two countries can take a ridiculous amount of time, so it is possible that it is just hung up in mail between the countries.
So that leads back to my original post. The bike didn’t make it more than a few months. I find this unacceptable, so I expressed my dissatisfaction with the product. I feel the company is hiding behind a technicality when they know full well that this is their bike, and I don’t think that is awesome to say the least, so I expressed my dissatisfaction with the company. But the truth is, I’m tired of this. I’m tired of dealing with Kuota, I’m tired of having lawyers tell me this is a very winnable case, but it is going to cost a lot of money and time. I’m tired of riding my beater winter training bike because I’m afraid the rear end of my Kredo will snap off at any hill. Getting it repaired seems to be the path of least resistance, but I don’t know enough about carbon to know if this is a reasonable thing to repair, or if it is just going to crack again, or even if it needs to be repaired or if it is just cosmetic, so I posted the original message to hopefully get some insight from people who know more than me. And if you don’t believe this, go re-read my message.


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## PezTech (Nov 6, 2007)

Perhaps if you would have been up front about the Non Kuota Dealer selling this way below cost to you on Ebay initially, rather than trying line like "Kuota won't help because I bought it online"... 

Or maybe not started your thread with a clear Bashing agenda (usually a good indication of intent) both here and at weight weenies... 

Or maybe just taking 2 seconds to replied to a genuine offer of help versus 15 minutes to try another angle on things...



Instead, we're left really wondering if this was even a "just riding along" problem... 

There are quite a few Kuota owners here and at Roadbike Review, yet the number of Bash and problem threads is pretty slim. 


I know the dealer. Have been freinds with him and used the shop for years... And the number of Kuota's I have seen sitting on the sales floor is exactly Zero.




Sorry for those that are also slogging through the same thread at Weightweenies...


http://weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36326&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

metricEee said:


> .... so I posted the original message to hopefully get some insight from people who know more than me. And if you don’t believe this, go re-read my message.


If it is any consolation, that is how I read your OP. I did not see it as a "bash Kuota" thread.

I would be interested to hear a response from them if you simply asked; Do they advise you to stop riding the frame based on the pictures until further inspection?


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## metricEee (Aug 28, 2002)

well pez, then I don't know what to say. Because we do seem to have different takes on this story. Is it possible that there are actually two similar cases going on right now? I know it is unlikely, but it could explain the discrepancy. All I can say is that my bike was shipped from a shop that is listed as a dealer on Kuota’s north american website. So when you say that the shop of your friend has never had a kuota, then something doesn’t add up wouldn’t you agree? Additionally, I am curious if the shop that sold me the bike is not a kuota dealer, then why have kuota told me that they signed a contract with them saying they wouldn't sell the bikes on ebay? it seems odd to me if he isn't a dealer wouldn't you think? wouldn't kuota come out and say that right off the bat? They knew which shop I bought the bike from from the very first time I corresponded with them, but not once did it come up that they had never heard of the shop. They knew the guy who I dealt with on the sale of the bike by name, which also seems odd if he had never been invovled with Kuota doesn’t it? Maybe I’m missing something here, but everything I have says dealer getting rid of inventory he can’t move. 

Am I kuota bashing? You bet. If you had a product fail after a very short period of use, would you say it is a good product? I don’t care if everyone else’s Kuota has no cracks, I have a product from them which has failed (or maybe it hasn't failed catastrophically, because I can't seem to get a great answer out of anyone- yourself included, about whether this is just a cosmetic crack). I don't have a garage full of expensive bikes to ride. I had this one, and now I don't. From my end of the table, I am not happy with how Kuota N America is dealing with this or me, since it makes no sense to me logically, but then contract laws are rarely logical to the end consumer, especially the one who is left with a defective product and no obvious recourse. Maybe that makes me a whinny little baby, I don't know. But I doubt that if you felt you were getting screwed over that you would be complimentary to the company. It is human nature.


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## Slartibartfast (Jul 22, 2007)

PezTech said:


> Perhaps if you would have been up front about the Non Kuota Dealer selling this way below cost to you on Ebay initially, rather than trying line like "Kuota won't help because I bought it online"...
> 
> Or maybe not started your thread with a clear Bashing agenda (usually a good indication of intent) both here and at weight weenies...
> 
> ...


Sorry to be naive, but are you associated with PezCycling, or is it just a similar user name on this forum?


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## Slartibartfast (Jul 22, 2007)

fougasg said:


> Sorry to be naive, but are you associated with PezCycling, or is it just a similar user name on this forum?


Sorry for quoting myself....

Okay... I've seen from another thread that you really are associated with PezCycling. I guess that should have been obvious.

Here's my question: why would a respected and unbiased cycling publication get involved in a customer's dispute with a manufacturer?


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## metricEee (Aug 28, 2002)

Fougasg,

I obviously can't speak for Pez, but I get the feeling he is just trying to straighten things out because he personally seems to know everyone invovled, which is understandable and something I think most of us would do in his shoes.


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## PezTech (Nov 6, 2007)

Yep, That's pretty much it.

I am absolute newb here (though I did split a Cab with a Roadbikereview/MTBR.com guy on the way back from Interbike, and am also a bay area half-Flip).


And at the end of the day, guys like me simply spitting out our impression of gear is only "lightly" useful. But if we can sometimes help consumers directly, why not? I have no problem trying to make a call now and again to make sure a manufcaturer is really doing what they should.

On the flip side, when you discover that a manufacturer or distributor may not be getting treated fairly, I don't mind telling folks what I know in those cases too (though that can be a bit more touchy...).


I don't always have the time, but when a rider (and or manufacturer) is getting openly screwed without all the details presented, Sometimes I stick my nose where it's only slightly less-use-less.


And I'm not big on forum privacy need... In fact I'm not a fan of it much past having some fun with a Nick.

Charles Manantan
[email protected]


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I realize you're trying to help out here Pez, but you're also adding some potential misinformation about warranties. These warranties are between a consumer and the manufacturer and fall under Federal law, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Individual shops have little to do with it, other than specific stipulations in the warranty regarding how service is to be performed. Some may stipulate a consumer has to send the product back directly to the manufacturer, while others may say return to any authorized dealer etc. In the latter case, any authorized dealer is under an obligation to deal with a product regardless of where it was purchased. If the dealer doesn't like it, that's something to take up with the manufacturer, or they can choose not to be a dealer.

The law in this case is complicated only by the fact that there is some potential miscommunication going on in terms of the basic facts. If the shop in question was an authorized dealer and sold a bike on ebay they were under obligation to either include the warranty or a statement regarding how to get a copy in the posting (this falls under Pre-Sale Availability of Written Warranty Terms). This is Federal law and consumers are protected in the case of a seller not fulfilling these obligations. Just because they offer the bike for a discount has no bearing on the warranty, unless there are specific provisions in the ad itself. Just because the bike was sitting around the shop has no bearing since the warranty is typically from date of purchase etc. If the dealer violates a term of their agreement with the manufacturer then the consumer has recourse against the dealer under Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which is tilted toward protecting the consumer and the consumer can seek court costs and reasonable attorney fees. We don't know what the real facts are in this case, as there's a discrepency between what the OP states and other accounts. 

Essentially, the OP needs to examine the ad to see what terms it contained. There are some ebay listings by shops that do this adequately. If, for example, it contained the statement that the item was sold 'as is' without manufacturer warranty etc., then the OP is out of luck.


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## PezTech (Nov 6, 2007)

I'm not saying that MMWA isn't applicable.

I simply added info for a more complete picture than the OP provided by implying that this was simply Kuota's failure to service a sale because the bike was purchased on line.


We can speculate about the variable possibilities of the if's and but's of a changing story to be sure...


But I do believe that the forum now has more clear info to draw conclusions with now.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

looking back over, the reference I meant actually appeared in the parallel thread going on in weight weenies, where you said 

"no customer should expect a shop they didn't buy from to help them" to which 'starnut', a Kuota dealer replied,

"Also, as Pez points out................the dealer is under no obligation to to warranty a frame they did not sell."

Why not? This idea is pervasive in the bike retail world and leads to a lot of incredibly unprofessional encounters between consumers and retailers. Shop owners like starnut don't understand even the basics of their obligations as dealers. The dealer doesn't warranty the frame at all-the manufacturer does. If the warranty stipulates a consumer can return the product to a dealer for service, the deal is obliged to honor that. Besides, what's involved in a frame warranty for a dealer other than packing it up and sending it off? Too many consumers have encountered owners like starnut, who make up stories about warranty coverage and then wonder why consumers aren't more loyal to their LBS.


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## PezTech (Nov 6, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> to which 'starnut', a Kuota dealer replied,
> 
> the dealer is under no obligation to to warranty a frame they did not sell."
> 
> Why not? This idea is pervasive in the bike retail world and leads to a lot of incredibly unprofessional encounters between consumers and retailers. Shop owners like starnut don't understand even the basics of their obligations as dealers. The dealer doesn't warranty the frame at all-the manufacturer does. If the warranty stipulates a consumer can return the product to a dealer for service, the deal is obliged to honor that. Besides, what's involved in a frame warranty for a dealer other than packing it up and sending it off? Too many consumers have encountered owners like starnut, who make up stories about warranty coverage and then wonder why consumers aren't more loyal to their LBS.



I'm not going to assume what a warranty does or does not say nor assume I know all the conditions of buying / dealer agreements between multiple brands.


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## JAG MN (Jan 10, 2006)

*Kuota*

I read a reviews of the new KOM by this same mfg and I think it was PezCyclingNews and they were amazed at how totally thin the tube walls were, so much that you could bend them easily with your fingers. I can't think this is a a real good sign. I have a Giant carbon frame and it is as tough as nails. Just my .02 worth, stay away from the super exotic carbon stuff, not mainstream enough and expensive. JG


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## PezTech (Nov 6, 2007)

Honestly there are several frames that you can flex the tubing with your fingers on... There are more than a few metal bikes with tubing extremely thin and enough so that you can flex the tubes if you squeez them. I can make the top tube wiggle on my Lynskey Titanium by squeezing it too...


None of the top line light bikes have crash survival as a high point... That's not what they're designed for. The Scott CR1, Cervelo R3 and a couple more are all in that class with Kuota.


Then again, not many F-1 cars stand up to the low speed bumper test that NHTSA does on passenger cars 


People want what people want... I'm not asying that these bikes are a better or worse choice for anyone. They simply are what they are, and it's not really my place to try and tell others they should like what I do.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Man:

What an ugly situation.

He said, she said to a tee.

Sometimes the price of getting a deal doesn't work out to be such a deal down the road.

There is no way to tell what the truth is in this situation. That being said, when I buy closeout, below cost, from a retailer I don't know, a product, whose manufacturer I have no experience with.......I know going in that I am taking an increasing risk of future problems in exchange for the lower price. It's a basic tennant. Maybe look at the original cost + the cost of repair and see if you still got a deal on the bike?

So the OP has only a few choices at this point:

1.) Sue the Manufacturere and retailer and let the courts decide. If his case is as strong as he thinks it is, he'll recover any costs he expends, but if he losses he is out of pocket.

2.) Pay to get it repaired. 

3.) trash it and call it an expensive lesson.

Craig Calfee's not willing to touch it says volumes to me...he's a pretty straight up guy & can fix anything. 

This story is every bike owner's nightmare.

Len


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*lastly lets talk about hype*

lets look at lugs

when used for steel bikes
REALITY: expensive. need skilled framebuilder (labor costs up) , finishing on the lugs
(increased labor time) , much cheaper and faster (which equates again to cheaper) to use computer to TiG weld and heck, lets leave the welds rough (more money saving) and sell it as the "Works Look"
HYPE: antiquated technology that produces heavier bikes. Bad, very bad. Only fools and Luddites would use this construction technique.

when used on Carbon Fibre Bikes Bikes
REALITY: Saves $. Mfr can have more sizes with less molds than monocoque construction. Bikes can be assembled using glue by unskilled laborers.
HYPE: superior Road Feel over monocoque. Lugged assembly produces near 'steel like' feedback. Monocoque bikes feel 'wooden'. Good very, good. The smartest and best Mfrs (Look, Colnago, etc...) use this technique.

so which is it?

it is the same for 'compact geometry'
the simple reality is they save $$ because they have less sizes to build (fewer SKUs) 
the rest is fitting the marketing to make it seem like it is the wise decision


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

*Moral of this story?*

It is sad to know that the OP is out so much money for a high end frame that failed.

The moral of the story is that if you are buying an expensive item, just go to the local bike shop and pay slightly more. That way, it there is a problem ---you are covered. plus, you want your local shop in business if you need anything. I would NEVER touch a used carbon frame on ebay. Everyone puts their damaged goods up there so you get an unpleasant surprise.

MP


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## LexTalionis (Feb 28, 2007)

cracks in the clear coat may be 'cosmetic' BUT understand that they are indicative of flex or stress in the area and it manifests first as clear coat cracks. there will be more to come of these eventually. you do not see clear coat cracks in the middle of a tube, but at junctions like this due to flex. think about it....


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

*cracks*

Regardless if the crack is cometic or not, it ain't supposed to be there. The dropouts are stress points.
That sucks.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Either take your lumps or send it to Kuota to be repaired at your expense. If you're in the US dealing with a Canadian distributor of an Italian bike made in China any judgment you get isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

As a weight weenie I really don't buy anything unless I'm comfortable with the possibility it will be a worthless piece of junk after the first ride. I certainly don't buy anything I expect that to happen to but if I can't take the hit I don't put out the money in the first place. After all it could just as easily be a jackass hit and run driver that turns your bike into abstract sculpture on its maiden voyage and you would be SOL then too.

I take Calfee's statement to indicate Kuota don't wrap the Al with fiberglass before bonding to the carbon so there is a fairly high likelihood of galvanic corrosion which would eventually fail despite any repairs that were made. Most manufacturers don't bother with it.


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## quattrotom (Jul 15, 2006)

I too have experienced this attitude in the bike world. This type of attitude just exemplifies how immature the whole bicycle market can be at times. I wonder if 'starnut' neds it simplified for him: So if my family moves to another state - my VW and Honda warranties will still be valid at the local dealership, but the half dozen bikes I own can only have warranty work performed if I drive them back to former "local" bike shop? This isn't complicated, it's commonsense. 

Does Kuota have an educated and experienced marketing person in their company without a chip on their shoulder? Be harsh with your dealers - businesses understand business is not personal. Consumers are not so comfortable with this type of attitude and frankly, writing off a $100 fix or or $500 replacement cost would have certainly been worth it.

I joke with my colleagues almost once a month about moronic and immature practices by bicycle manufacturers and retail stores. I'll make an analogy to the bike-related practice and what someone would think if the same practice was performed in any almost any other industry including our own. It's pretty amusing, unless you are the one dealing with the bike manufacturer like the OP.





stevesbike said:


> looking back over, the reference I meant actually appeared in the parallel thread going on in weight weenies, where you said
> 
> "no customer should expect a shop they didn't buy from to help them" to which 'starnut', a Kuota dealer replied,
> 
> ...


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

*They've shot themselves in the foot*

Being in a successful business, 

All Kuota had to do was take the frame back and fix the drop out. If they would have done that, MetricEee would have been very pleased and told all his riding buddies about Kuota and helped stimulate their sales. 

Instead, Kuota had to be jerks about it. So, MetricEee makes this post about the negative attitude and crappy service of Kuota. MetricEee won't be buying anymore Kuota and neither will his riding buddies after this problem --as with many RBR members reading this post. 

The bottom line, in operating a successful business you need to take small short term losses and stand behind your product which result is much profit in the long run. Any successful business knows that. Kuota sales in my local racing area in California have dropped. I can understand why. 

It is not hard to run a successful business. It is hard to run a crappy one.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

skygodmatt said:


> Being in a successful business,
> 
> All Kuota had to do was take the frame back and fix the drop out. If they would have done that, MetricEee would have been very pleased and told all his riding buddies about Kuota and helped stimulate their sales.
> ....
> It is not hard to run a successful business. It is hard to run a crappy one.


Well said. 
I've experienced out of warranty repair from other companies and while I'm willing to pay, this little bit extra leaves a favorable impression. I've seen a couple Kuota on the trails locally...the thought that will come to my mind now is


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## Terrapin (Aug 1, 2002)

I know I've decided not to look any further at the Kuota Kharma as my next bike. I'll decide between a CAAD6 and a Felt F3 or F4.


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## jerman (Jan 28, 2005)

*Terrapin -- Kredo*

Note this was a Kredo, too, and not a Kharma. They are different.
My LBS is supposed to be the #1 retailer of Kuotas in the US. When I go on group rides around here it's like Team Kuota and I haven't heard of any of them, or anyone else for that matter, having the kind of problems described, but there may only have been one Kredo model in the bunch; most of them are the Kharma's. But that being said the Kharma looks to use the same type "internal lug" on the top tube that my '05 Look 555 had -- I'm not sure but it looks the same. I had a paint crack develope at the TT on top near the headtube of my Look. Outside of the warranty...
Not to say they are the same or even related but I will not be buying another bike that has that type of joint manufacture.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

So what happened to this issue?

While out playing tourist, I came across a Kuota dealer. Recalling this thread, I wanted to see how one of their bikes rode...so I took Kharma for a short spin. Totally unprepared BTW, jeans, hiking shoes...not the best way to evaluate a bike. :nono:

This sales guy relayed he's not dealt with any warranty issues. That's not to say they don't exists for some, but that helped boost my confidence. Ironic about my post above. I'm going back for a fitting and it will be my new ride. :smilewinkgrin:


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## kcdoc (Dec 30, 2007)

Being the Kuota pimp that I am, I will tell you these are great bikes. I have been on a Kebel for about 6 months and love it. Unbelievable ride for the money. I have had absolutely no problems with this bike. Because i had heard things about Kuota as well (mostly this thread) I asked my dealer about them before I bought it. He has had absolutely no issues with the frames,and has had no customer complaints. And he sells alot of them. 
I think this is one of the most underated frame manufacturers on the market, probably because they are new to roadies and the US. Small name that should get bigger hopefully.

Later


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## RoyIII (Feb 24, 2007)

This thread is over 6 months old. What is the lingering interest? marketing damage control by bringing up a complaint, albeit quite lame, that all of the rest of us already forgot - until now?


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

At least it wasn't several years old. 

Why:

1. Because I was curious if the bike was fixed after all this commotion.
2. Because I'm likely to buy one (through an authorized dealer) and how his dealings were handled under a non-ideal circumstance. 
3. If fixed, is he still riding it.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

I still have a hard time believing the shop he bought it from (even if it was over the internet) wasn't helping him out. I mean... mail the frame back to the shop and let them fight the warranty issues.

-1 to Kuota for the customer service--even if the bike was bought over the internet.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

RoyIII said:


> What is the lingering interest?



We're actually just trolling... trying to egg atpjunkie on.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*you rang?*



MarvinK said:


> We're actually just trolling... trying to egg atpjunkie on.


I have nothing more to add, my bikes don't break and don't cost $4K


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*Hugh?*



skygodmatt said:


> I would NEVER touch a used carbon frame on ebay. Everyone puts their damaged goods up there so you get an unpleasant surprise.
> 
> MP


That's an ignorant and short-sighted statement. I just sold my immaculate 2004 Colnago C50 frame-set on Ebay to a happy person for $2000. Ebay is simply a platform to sell things. Eurobikeparts in on there, and they have hands down the best prices on Campy period.


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*I agree. .*



MarvinK said:


> -1 to Kuota for the customer service--even if the bike was bought over the internet.


The bicycling industry is most retarded in this regard and way behind the times. For instance car warranties follow the car, not the owner, and it doesn't matter where you by it from. The bike shops where I live suck, so I buy ALL my cycling stuff off the internet. Brick and mortar shops are going by the wayside nowadays.


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## PezTech (Nov 6, 2007)

We could have car manufacturer type service from bike makers, we would just need to pay another thousand bucks for every bike to cover the possible warranty issues just like auto manufacturers build it into their pricing. No problem...



What happened? A guy bought a shop sample bike on Ebay and was told there was no warranty when he bought it. 

He tried running round a bit and tried the multi forum brand bash / info twist and that didn't change much...



Kuma enjoy your bike...

One of the more telling things about this old thread is that there are not any others like it. Plenty of Kuota's here but one thread like this... The folks round here that have real experiance with Kuota and thier retailers seem to be pretty happy.

I just bought a Kredo Ultra to go with the KOM I have. I've also had a several friends on Kuota and only one has had a problem and it was fixed without issue...

Hey I wish there were loads of free stuff in cycling for all consumers, but just like every industry, you get what you pay for. I also hate hearing anyone isn't getting everything they want. But when someone has something explianed to them and chooses to both ignore it and then twist thr truth, I don't have a lot of sympathy...


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks Pez-

Made my fitting appointment for 10:30 tomorrow and am looking forward to the new ride. :smilewinkgrin:


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## allenpg (Sep 13, 2006)

I have both the Kredo and Kalibur and like them both. My only dealings with Kuota were when I likely overtightened the seat clamp too much and cracked the post on my Kredo. They offered me a new seatpost at cost as a "crash replacement",

No matter what people own...a Kuota, a Look, a Cervelo, or a Trek, you're likely to turn up someone who isn't happy. That's just the nature of people and customer service. People could get a free bike and still find something to complain about. Some people are only happy when they whine...

You tend to hear more about complaints than compliments. I tend to buy bikes based on fit and the ride vs warranties. Most of the shops I deal with will go out of their way to help you out. Then again, I live in Chicago where there are lots to chose from, so there's competition besides on the web.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

I test rode 2 Kuota's they both rode like crap....

1 hour test rides.. two different occasions...


Back to Scandium for me.

Thanks for this thread OP.. Will stay away from this brand for sure.


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## scmaddog17 (Aug 25, 2003)

as much as it sucks for the OP to have had this problem, i dont think there's a need for Kuota owners to come in defense of them. we're all human and we're all not perfect. somewhere in the process, somebody didnt pay as much attention as he/she should have and now we have a problem. mistakes happen every minute of every day. Kuota is not the only company to have had this happen to and won't be the last. i'd like to think the OP is being honest with his story and Kuota should fix the bike under warranty, period. as much discussion has been on this bike, Kuota has probably lost potential customers. so why not do a sensible thing and replace/repair the frame and keep a good vibe going thruout the cycling community. i think it's safe to say that we here on these forums like to read about good warranty service. CONSUMER CONFIDENCE!!! a company that stands behind their product will only sell more because of it. i think it's total bs that a warranty will only apply if the product is sold in a certain manner, ie in a brick and mortar store and not online. now, if the shop isn't a dealer then you may have a case because you have no idea how they got hold of the product. but the manner in which you buy it shouldn't matter. hopefully all goes well for everyone involved. 
i'm happy i ride steel, i really wouldn't need this kind of headache!!!!


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

shabbasuraj said:


> I test rode 2 Kuota's they both rode like crap....
> 
> 1 hour test rides.. two different occasions...
> 
> ...


You can keep your $200 SUPERGO Scandium Frameset. More Kuota's for me. The KOM is currently on my Radar. :thumbsup:


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## j.mn (Sep 4, 2007)

Im using a Kuota Khan bought way back 2005 & yet to find a problem with it (maybe lusting over the new Kredo Race Ultra). I did have a friend who had a problem with his Kharma frame and was replaced by Kuota after a few emails sent back and forth. Kuota might be a little hard to talk with about replacements or repairs but in the end they do stand by their products.

MetricEE - hope they did help out on your frame problem, also lesson to be learned - buy bikes from LBS as they do stand behind the products they sell rather than in Ebay!


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## hammer_cycle (Apr 7, 2004)

skygodmatt said:


> Being in a successful business,
> 
> All Kuota had to do was take the frame back and fix the drop out. If they would have done that, MetricEee would have been very pleased and told all his riding buddies about Kuota and helped stimulate their sales.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. They've probably lost more on this one unsatisfied customer than it was worth to them. I can appreciate their desire to control prices and maintain their image, and yet, sometimes it is just a bad business decision to maintain that stance without flexibility.

I was in a Kuota shop on Saturday and ended up buying a Cervelo instead. Granted, while I think the Cervelo is a better bike regardless, I did think back on this thread and it made it that much easier to not go with the Kuota (nice looking bike though...)


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## Donegal (Apr 23, 2005)

*Kredo Problems*

I don't sympathize with the OP. I have a Kredo 2006, bought late 2007 on Ebay from a dealer over the internet. My frame looks a good bit different than the OP's. I checked w/Kuota and my warranty is intact. I bought a legitimate Kuota from an actual dealer. There are lots of gray frames out there,sometimes sold around the original manufacturer/designer. Look at bike forums and you can find Willier LeRoi's not sold through Wilier. Sometimes frames go out the back door instead of the front.

Prior to Purchase, I researched the brand.

Manufactured by Martec, top Taiwanese carbon factory for framesets. Kredo Frames passed German EFBE Stress tests as a top performing frame. They put it on a hydraulic machine, created stress, repeated thousands of cycles and couldn't break it.

I sold a Colnago C40 because I found it too noodly, flexible. I am a strong legged masher and need a stiff frame. The Kredo is strong enough that I can make spokes creak and pop while climbing on the Reynolds wheels. It cranks like a carbon Cannondale. I am not exactly easy on my bikes, I ride them........hard sometimes.

I question the actual authenticity of the frame first, the online dealer second. Manufacturers do not have unlimited resources or funding and cannot guarantee absolute happiness to anybody, period. As was posted, this could have been a sample, a demo, a leftover race bike, a knockoff, etc. 

I own one Kuota now, and have owned Colnago, Litespeed, Cannondale, Specialized and I will own others. Kuota can't be too fragile winning the Hawaii Ironman 2-3 years running. I like the styling, and the quality I have found.


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## bigtea (May 26, 2008)

And to think...I came THAT close to buying a Kuota instead of my new Litespeed Siena. There's something to be said about titanium frames made in America.


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## mjolnir2k (Sep 1, 2004)

*Don't be so hasty.*

Just wanted to toss in a few cents worth of counter balance to the argument of "quality" of the frames made by Kuota.

I currently own a 2007 Kredo and a 2007 Kalibur. I have ridden them both as my main bikes for 2 seasons (Racing, Time trials and every day riding). To date I have had ZERO issues with either of them. They both are excellent bikes that have performed flawlessly and provide an unbelievable ride. 

My Kredo especially has been the best bike I have ever owned (previous bikes include: Wilier Izoard, Colnago Dream, Klein Quantum). The Kredo is faster, stiffer and lighter than anything I have ridden to date (58cm / 14.6 lbs). 

I am not some amazingly talented cyclist, but rather a regular CAT 4 (hopefully CAT 3 soon) racer on a budget, that can't afford to spend money on things that don't last. I was initially skeptical about the lilghtweight carbon frames, but KUOTA made me a believer. 

prior to buying my Kredo, I spent a CRAZY amount of energy and time to find out as much as possible about the bike and company (as well as many others). While there isn't a ton of information available (there was even less in 2007) what I did find was very positive. Additionally, while I tend to view magazine reviews with a very skeptical eye (I was in the bike biz and know that good reviews can be "bought" with advertising dollars) one source that I tend to trust was PEZCYCLING and they loved the Kredo. These factors helped me to decide on the Kredo and I am so very thankful I made that choice.

So, I am 2+ years into my Kuota relationship and can only tell you that from my experience I couldn't be happier.

So Happy in fact that, after many, many pleas...Santa just brought me a shiny new KOM.










While I can understand the OP's frustration (no one wants to be out a few grand for a useless frame) I think that those people who have stated that they would never buy a Kuota are losing out on a great, GREAT brand!


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

*French?*




master2129 said:


> Metric EUROSPEK in Canada is tough to deal with. I have heard this time and time again from lots of riders. And yes, they can be rude. But don't take it personal. They're FRENCH. They can't help it. The same goes for Argon 18. Don't try to get them to honor a warranty on their frames if something goes wrong. You'll be kicking against the pricks. (no pun intended)
> 
> If I were you, take the bike apart and get it fixed. Then when it's all said and done, pop it up on eBay and sell it. If the fix is good, then it will be better than new. Some may have an ethical problem with this suggestion, but if the frameset has been fixed to better than new, you've done the new Buyer a sincere favor. Then go get yourself a frame you have 110% confidence in.



What a stupid, ignorant and arrogant racist comment!

The guy got the frame on the internet,( as companies try hard to offer service to points of distribution) trying to get a deal and get everything to go with it, and when it goes wrong than blames it on whatever he can gat a grip on! Then you advise to sell a damaged/repair frame on Ebay.. "Not good enough for me, I'll sell it to you!" Ah! Nice. Fixed better than new? you say, but I'll sell it anyway and do the buyer a favor! wouahahahahaa! It's all in such good faith isn't it?

Yep! you want to have your cake and eat it too. Well how do you like them apples now?

being nice certainly doesn't have anything to do with being american, french (or quebecer if you are not so ignorant) it often has to do with how the question is asked... But then, if you don't get the answer you want, and bully on by bashing anyone (what does Argon have to do with this?), then I suppose you get what you deserve.

p.s. the frame is probably only cosmetically cracked. Why don't you go test it on a big downhill?


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## 1stmh (Apr 7, 2007)

If I bought a car, new or used, and the head casket went after only a few months then I would expect the manufactuer to repair the issue, especially if it was a known issue, at their expense. At minimum, they would need to share the cost of the repair. To me, this seems like the most reasonable thing Kuoto could do, and an accurate analogy to the problem. Kuoto should fix the bike, keep the customer riding and advertising the bike happy, and get more people to buy the bike. That should be their primary motive at this time. Then there wouldn't be people like me reading this going, oh, I'm never buying that bike... that could happen to me.

In a market where I could buy and be happy with any of 50+ bikes, service and reputation is what will keep you ahead.

This is not about *who* is right or wrong, but about *what* is right.

Just my 0.02 cents. Don't spend it all at once.


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## de.abeja (Aug 27, 2006)

tempeteOntheRoad said:


> What a stupid, ignorant and arrogant racist comment!



psssst.... unless he is non-caucasian he is the same race as "The French". More accurately it is a culturally insensitive or elitist comment.


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## mjolnir2k (Sep 1, 2004)

This makes no sense. So if I sold you a used Chevy truck and told you there was no Warranty on the truck and you accepted that as a condition of the sale, then the head gasket went bad...by your reasoning you'd expect Chevy to repair your truck for free.

Trust me, your local Chevy dealership would laugh you out of the repair center. 

By all accounts Kuota offered to make an assesment for repair, at a cost to the OP. The OP purchased the item at a discounted rate with the knowledge that no warranty was applicable. He accepted that as terms of the sale and saved the money.

How is this Kuota's responsibility?

If I sell my Kredo on eBay and the buyer breaks it, is Kuota responsible to fix it for free? 

I stand by my assesment of Kuota. They make excellent products and I think are totally justified to process this claim as "out of warranty".


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## brblue (Jan 28, 2003)

metric - did you ride the bike since the cracks occured?
I just think that, should the dropouts break, the worst that can happen is that you'll come to a standstill by the rear wheel rubbibg against the brake bridge. And this, after the bike would feel noodly for some time. That said, i don't want to minimize the importance of a possible break, I'm just saying that i'd probably give the bike a chance until an even slight modification occurs in ride feel..


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## RC28 (May 9, 2002)

brblue said:


> metric - did you ride the bike since the cracks occured?
> I just think that, should the dropouts break,* the worst that can happen is that you'll come to a standstill by the rear wheel rubbibg against the brake bridge*. And this, after the bike would feel noodly for some time. That said, i don't want to minimize the importance of a possible break, I'm just saying that i'd probably give the bike a chance until an even slight modification occurs in ride feel..


Are you willing to bet the OP's teeth, bones and skin on that?


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

I don't think we'll know the outcome of this incident. 

Although he didn't get treated well by the manufacturer, that isn't to say the company and product as a whole is bad. There have been enough posts by Kuota owners who's frames are doing well. Although my first impression wasn't favorable, I let the product speak for itself. After riding one I bought it. 

Like buying any gray good...it will be a gamble. Someone may support it but it may not. This was a losing purchase for the OP.


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## Lance#8in09 (Sep 13, 2008)

PezTech said:


> Yep, That's pretty much it.
> 
> I am absolute newb here (though I did split a Cab with a Roadbikereview/MTBR.com guy on the way back from Interbike, and am also a bay area half-Flip).
> 
> ...


You were not even involved in the original transaction or the follow up. What you have done is little more than post heresay drivel which doesn't mean a thing. You talk about this transaction as if you were one of the parties involved and present your posts as if they are facts, they are not. If you truly believe that this dealer is not or was not an authorized Kuota dealer then name the dealer! I'm gonna guess that that won't happen though. 

You have absolutely no idea what the OP was told regarding warranty when he bought the frame unless you were the shop which sold him the bike and you were not. Yet you present yourself as if your claims are set in stone facts. 

This guy seems to have a very legitimate case if what he states is accurate. He bought a juota online under the assumption that it was new and would have an enforceable warranty. If Kuota and/or the dealer truly did initially refuse to fix a bike that looks like that after 3 mos or whatever, that's lame anyway you choose to spin it. It's lame on both oarties parts. Name the dealer and we'll know real soon who is telling the truth regarding whether this guy was or was not an authorized Kuota dealer! Who is the dealer?


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## Lance#8in09 (Sep 13, 2008)

PezTech said:


> What happened? A guy bought a shop sample bike on Ebay and was told there was no warranty when he bought it.
> 
> He tried running round a bit and tried the multi forum brand bash / info twist and that didn't change much...But when someone has something explianed to them and chooses to both ignore it and then twist thr truth, I don't have a lot of sympathy...



More nonsense spin from you. You weren't party to the original transaction, but yet claim your posts are statements of fact, which they are not. You have absolutely zero true firsthand knowledge what this guy was or was not told regarding warranty when he bought this frame. Yet you claim you know what he was told when he bought it with Nostradamus like powers!

Name the dealer he bought this frame from which according to you was not an authorized Kuota dealer? Pez Cycling by the way is a Kuota Cheerleading forum, tell me I'm wrong? Your posts do a lot more than truth twisting, better go stare in the mirror a bit when making that claim about someone else pal.


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## 1stmh (Apr 7, 2007)

mjolnir2k said:


> This makes no sense. So if I sold you a used Chevy truck and told you there was no Warranty on the truck and you accepted that as a condition of the sale, then the head gasket went bad...by your reasoning you'd expect Chevy to repair your truck for free.
> 
> Trust me, your local Chevy dealership would laugh you out of the repair center.


No wonder GM is going bankrupt!

There are in fact numerous examples (most notably in recalls) where car manufacturers do precisely this. Hell, Cervelo did this earlier this year if you are looking for a bike example. Do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of Lemon Aid, and read the numerous successful examples where people insisted car manufacturers (and not the dealers) repair known problems, and where they did in fact repair them at no cost to the owner, even if the car was bought used. 

The point is, if it is a manufacturing related problem (and not related to the owner breaking it accidentally or purposefuly), then Kuoto should be willing to do something more regardless of whether it was bought on eBay, Craigslist, or RBR, new, used or at a discounted/inflated price. Good for you if you don't think this. But color me skeptical. I want a product that the manufacturer will stand behind proudly.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

I bought a used Trek once, the frame broke and Trek sent me a brand new one.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

I bought a used MSB Tech Gold Link D to A. It broke, sent it to MSB and they repaired it free of charge.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

I bought a used Classe' amp once. It broke and I sent it to Classe'. It got held up in customs, they repaired it free of charge.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Point is, used or not, manufactures that stand behind their equipment have me as a customer for life. Those that don't, well, depending on the circumstance have lost me. Neither Trek, MSB or Classe' would have lost me as a customer. With out question they all immediately took care of me. I didn't even expect them to do anything for free.

However, it looks like the above bike company is one I won't consider doing business with, if the OP comments are taken to be truthful.


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## brblue (Jan 28, 2003)

Well since they're not mine...  Just kidding. Let's put it like this - if I got that frame for free today, with the cracks in the dropouts and all, I'd give it a careful try . probably


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2008)

Lance#8in09 said:


> More nonsense spin from you. You weren't party to the original transaction, but yet claim your posts are statements of fact, which they are not. You have absolutely zero true firsthand knowledge what this guy was or was not told regarding warranty when he bought this frame. Yet you claim you know what he was told when he bought it with Nostradamus like powers!
> 
> Name the dealer he bought this frame from which according to you was not an authorized Kuota dealer? Pez Cycling by the way is a Kuota Cheerleading forum, tell me I'm wrong? Your posts do a lot more than truth twisting, better go stare in the mirror a bit when making that claim about someone else pal.



So, uuhhh, you realize you're trying to pick a fight on a thread that is over a year old?!


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## mjolnir2k (Sep 1, 2004)

I am not really interested in dredging up the argument on this old thread, I am merely stating that I have been a VERY satisfied Kuota owner for over two years and that this incident has not reflected my experience with their products!

From my first hand use of both a Kuota Kredo and Kuota Kalibur I find Kuota's bikes to be excpetionally well made and well engineered and have loved every minute of owning them. So much so that my 2009 bike will be their KOM Model. 

Cheers.


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## 1stmh (Apr 7, 2007)

mjolnir2k said:


> I am not really interested in dredging up the argument on this old thread, I am merely stating that I have been a VERY satisfied Kuota owner for over two years and that this incident has not reflected my experience with their products!
> 
> From my first hand use of both a Kuota Kredo and Kuota Kalibur I find Kuota's bikes to be excpetionally well made and well engineered and have loved every minute of owning them. So much so that my 2009 bike will be their KOM Model.
> 
> Cheers.


Good for you - :thumbsup: 

And I mean that in all sincerity.


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