# USA Cycling Cat 5 to Cat 4



## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

I have read that to go from Cat 5 to Cat 4, a person must participate in 10 races. This year will be my first year racing. I have purchased an annual USA Cycling license and am set to debut in at an event coming up in mid February. The event is a multi day event with a Criterium and a TT. My question is, if I race both the Criterium and TT, will I be given credit for racing TWO races? Or will this only count for one on my license?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

10 mass starts. TTs are not mass starts.


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> 10 mass starts. TTs are not mass starts.


Alright then. Thanks!


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Not to totally hijack.. but along the same lines..
I bought my Cat5 license this year as well... My season officially starts at Battenkill.

I have raced in 4 other races prior that were legit one day races. 2 on 1 day.. then 2 others.

Will those 4 races count for me or only the ones from here on out since I've only just picked up my license.


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Not to totally hijack.. but along the same lines..
> I bought my Cat5 license this year as well... My season officially starts at Battenkill.
> 
> I have raced in 4 other races prior that were legit one day races. 2 on 1 day.. then 2 others.
> ...


I am curious about this one, as well.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Will those 4 races count for me or only the ones from here on out since I've only just picked up my license.


Most will only count the races on your license, but you could probably let your local upgrade coordinator know that you did some races prior to the ones on your license and they might allow you to upgrade slightly early. Some are strict and some aren't.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Well when you pull up my name on bike reg you see 3 of them and the results are on the USA cycling site. Guess I'll just cross my fingers when the time comes.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Not to totally hijack.. but along the same lines..
> I bought my Cat5 license this year as well... My season officially starts at Battenkill.
> 
> I have raced in 4 other races prior that were legit one day races. 2 on 1 day.. then 2 others.
> ...


My question is how the eff did you manage to get registered for that? Everything was completely full by the time I tried to register, a day after it opened.

You going to do the preview ride in late March?


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

I signed up the evening it opened. I managed to get into the first cat 5 field. The 2 other fields filled by the next day. I'm not doing the preview ride but my friend is.. I plan on checking out the file from his Garmin at least. It's a 4.5 or so hour drive for me.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> I signed up the evening it opened. I managed to get into the first cat 5 field. The 2 other fields filled by the next day. I'm not doing the preview ride but my friend is.. I plan on checking out the file from his Garmin at least. It's a 4.5 or so hour drive for me.


Yeowch. That's a bit of a drive.

Lucky to have gotten in. I got my name on the wait list, so maybe I'll get a little bit lucky as the date draws near.

You staying in a hotel up there or heading up the morning of?


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

At this point I've been offered a spot on a floor. So driving out the day before.. Camping in a strangers living room.. beating myself up with the cat 5 field.. then a long drive home.

Hopefully someone on the waiting list gives it up for ya!


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Not to totally hijack.. but along the same lines..
> I bought my Cat5 license this year as well... My season officially starts at Battenkill.
> 
> I have raced in 4 other races prior that were legit one day races. 2 on 1 day.. then 2 others.
> ...


As long as you can document them and they were sanctioned, they should be included in "[e]xperience in 10 mass start races."


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> My question is how the eff did you manage to get registered for that? Everything was completely full by the time I tried to register, a day after it opened.
> 
> You going to do the preview ride in late March?


Get on the waitlist. Deiter loves to open new fields once one is full. After enough people are on a waitlist, he'll open a new field for them.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

kbiker3111 said:


> Get on the waitlist. Deiter loves to open new fields once one is full. After enough people are on a waitlist, he'll open a new field for them.


Sweet. Jumping on the wait list as soon as I saw the fields were full may yet work out.

Any clue how soon one hears if there is a spot open?


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## EMB145 Driver (Aug 17, 2006)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Well when you pull up my name on bike reg you see 3 of them and the results are on the USA cycling site. Guess I'll just cross my fingers when the time comes.


Get the results from USA Cycling or the actual event site, include them in your resume' when you apply for the upgrade, they'll count. It was a mass start race, and if you can prove you were in it, then you can use it towards upgrade. There's nothing in the rules that says one day licenses don't count.

For that matter, if you did really well in them, apply now if you want. A teammate of mine upgraded to Cat 4 after 3 races. The most any of us did was 7 before applying and being awarded an upgrade.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Sweet. Jumping on the wait list as soon as I saw the fields were full may yet work out.
> 
> Any clue how soon one hears if there is a spot open?


Not sure. It depends on the field, but its usually a couple weeks and you should definitely know a few weeks out so you can make accommodations. Are you a cat5? He may handle cat 5 differently b/c the field limit is 50, not 125. The best thing to do is ask. They're pretty good about responding to emails.


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## Travis (Oct 14, 2005)

EMB145 Driver said:


> Get the results from USA Cycling or the actual event site, include them in your resume' when you apply for the upgrade, they'll count. It was a mass start race, and if you can prove you were in it, then you can use it towards upgrade. There's nothing in the rules that says one day licenses don't count.
> 
> For that matter, if you did really well in them, apply now if you want. A teammate of mine upgraded to Cat 4 after 3 races. The most any of us did was 7 before applying and being awarded an upgrade.


Wow, no way that would happen in Washington. You need 10 mass starts and they all must be USA Cycling events (no weeknight championship races). If he won his three races I could see making it on points


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## EMB145 Driver (Aug 17, 2006)

Travis said:


> Wow, no way that would happen in Washington. You need 10 mass starts and they all must be USA Cycling events (no weeknight championship races). If he won his three races I could see making it on points


His worst finish all year, any category, was 10th. He was/is the exception. He went from never racing to 3 by the end of the 2010 race season.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

My first 2 races were nothing to brag about.. Got shelled but what could I expect.
My 3rd race I did much better and finished mid pack with the lead group.. 4th race I took second after dragging a wheel sucker off the final corner. It was a small weekly crit though so who knows if it'll count. 

Had I justed a tinch sooner that guy would have never caught my wheel.


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## EMB145 Driver (Aug 17, 2006)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> My first 2 races were nothing to brag about.. Got shelled but what could I expect.
> My 3rd race I did much better and finished mid pack with the lead group.. 4th race I took second after dragging a wheel sucker off the final corner. It was a small weekly crit though so who knows if it'll count.
> 
> Had I justed a tinch sooner that guy would have never caught my wheel.


Any mass start race that you have to have a license to enter, one day or annual, counts. Minimum race time for a Cat 5 crit is 20minutes to meet USA Cycling minimums. That doesn't mean you have to race 20 minutes, you can roll off the line, DNF, and it will count.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Well all 4 of those count then. I had to pay for a one day for each.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

EMB145 Driver said:


> His worst finish all year, any category, was 10th. He was/is the exception. He went from never racing to 3 by the end of the 2010 race season.


If the district upgrade coordinator takes the view that the ten mass starts are about experience, not results, then it just doesn't matter how you do. (Humbly, I submit that (in almost every case), that's the right way to look at it. If you're talking about someone who goes off the front at the start of every race and just rides away, such that s/he's not getting any "mass" experience, then I guess that's a different story, but even then, I'd probably only feel that way if s/he's done it across the spectrum of types of races.)


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Just because your legs have the power doesn't mean your skills do.. Blowing the doors off a field is very different than riding in a pack.


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## 2silent (Dec 26, 2009)

anymore information on this-

I raced last week (first ever) and easily rode away from the other 4/5s (one 4 did the same to me as well so I got 2nd in my mass start). I actually caught and passed the 1/2/3s from a 5 minute deficit after 24 miles (there were only a handful in that race and they were all still riding together at that point and still had 24 miles to go while I only had 8. I stayed well ahead of them until my finish line.)

I have a decent amount of group ride experience, cyclocross experience and unsanctioned gravel road racing experience (as well as a cat1 mountain license). 

I would really like the opportunity to upgrade mostly so that I can be in longer races as soon as possible. Racing just 25-40 miles seems awful short, my mountain bike races are just as long!

How soon would it be appropriate to ask for an upgrade? Can I do it after just 2 or 3 races if they continue as my 1st experience?


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## khaizlip (Aug 21, 2008)

Someone from NYSBRA put together a short video: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ9BjIeFt9w


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## rudedog55 (Aug 10, 2009)

there was a guy in CT last year that road off the front of a Cat 5 race (crit) and lapped the field, he was upgraded to Cat 4 for the next week, as far as i know that was his first mass start race and then rode off the front of the 4's for a win also, they did not upgrade him to a 3 though, they kept him in 4, lost track of him and don't know how the rest of the year went.

I would talk to your local rep, there are always exceptions.


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## 2silent (Dec 26, 2009)

I will try that, fwiw rode off front be minutes of the 4/5 race today and even beat the one 4 who got me last time.


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

2silent said:


> anymore information on this-
> 
> I raced last week (first ever) and easily rode away from the other 4/5s (one 4 did the same to me as well so I got 2nd in my mass start). I actually caught and passed the 1/2/3s from a 5 minute deficit after 24 miles (there were only a handful in that race and they were all still riding together at that point and still had 24 miles to go while I only had 8. I stayed well ahead of them until my finish line.)
> 
> ...


As others said, ask. Your local rep does have discretion to make exceptions, just be prepared to back it up..."Sir, I was off the front by X minutes in my first three cat. 5 or 4/5 races, and I've been riding for 5 years. Would you consider upgarding me now?"

Something like that might get you the upgrade, or he might tell you to do the 10 races. Just be respectful of whatever he says, and you won't have a problem. Good luck!!


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## CHT (Mar 1, 2001)

rudedog55 said:


> there was a guy in CT last year that road off the front of a Cat 5 race (crit) and lapped the field, he was upgraded to Cat 4 for the next week, as far as i know that was his first mass start race and then rode off the front of the 4's for a win also, they did not upgrade him to a 3 though, they kept him in 4, lost track of him and don't know how the rest of the year went.


That guy ended the year Cat 1 or 2. Placed very well at Bethel P-1-2-3 this past week (don't want to put his placing/name out there). He won (and maybe lapped the field) at his first Cat 4 race after being kicked up from the 5's....right after winning his field at Battenkill the day before!!


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## rudedog55 (Aug 10, 2009)

CHT said:


> That guy ended the year Cat 1 or 2. Placed very well at Bethel P-1-2-3 this past week (don't want to put his placing/name out there). He won (and maybe lapped the field) at his first Cat 4 race after being kicked up from the 5's....right after winning his field at Battenkill the day before!!



yup, saw that this morning when i checked the results from the P1,2,3 race, I immediately recognized the name, good on him, wish i was that fast!!!


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## bikeopaulie (Mar 17, 2013)

Does anyone know if you start in two races on the same day/event, Cat 5 and Cat 4/5 for example, does that count as two starts towards an upgrade?


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

2silent said:


> anymore information on this-
> 
> I raced last week (first ever) and easily rode away from the other 4/5s (one 4 did the same to me as well so I got 2nd in my mass start). I actually caught and passed the 1/2/3s from a 5 minute deficit after 24 miles (there were only a handful in that race and they were all still riding together at that point and still had 24 miles to go while I only had 8. I stayed well ahead of them until my finish line.)
> 
> ...


The upgrades are also about experience. Stay in the pack and learn more before upgrading.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

bikeopaulie said:


> Does anyone know if you start in two races on the same day/event, Cat 5 and Cat 4/5 for example, does that count as two starts towards an upgrade?


Sure. I usually ride the master's 50+ race first thing and then a cat 4/5 later. Lots of guys do that.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

bikeopaulie said:


> Does anyone know if you start in two races on the same day/event, Cat 5 and Cat 4/5 for example, does that count as two starts towards an upgrade?


Yes, but you need to finish each for it to count toward the upgrade. It used to be starts, but now it's finishes.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

It's good that you have plenty of racing experience. If you request an early upgrade, focus on that, not the fact that you are stronger than the other 4/5s. Hopefully your USAC license shows pages and pages of races, even if only two of them are road races. Upgrading isn't just about winning races or riding away from the field early in a race. While it's nice that you rode away from the field, the regional coordinator may see things differently: Since you wont be able to ride away from cat 4 or cat 3 fields as easily, he wants to hear that you have experience riding in the pack. As someone else said, its about experience.


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## cru_jones (Nov 29, 2009)

EMB145 Driver said:


> That doesn't mean you have to race 20 minutes, you can roll off the line, DNF, and it will count.


Is this the latest rule or an old rule?

Category 5 to 4: *Finish* 10 mass start races.


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## TimV (Mar 20, 2007)

That is the current rule. You must now FINISH 10 races to move up to a Cat 4.


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

TT, Hill Climbs (Which is a mass start) also don't count.


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## Alex_C (Aug 21, 2006)

It does depend on the region. I participated in the Early Bird series here in NorCal and upgraded with less than 10 races. Likely helped that I was on the podium 3x, but maybe not. 

Even though I rode a lot before i started crit racing each race I see / learn something new. It is about the experience.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

cru_jones said:


> Is this the latest rule or an old rule?
> 
> Category 5 to 4: *Finish* 10 mass start races.


over 2 years? why do people dig this stuff up? you know about the USA Cycling site, right? 
View attachment 277904


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

but if they didn't, we'd tell them to do a dag gum search.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

Alex_C said:


> It does depend on the region. I participated in the Early Bird series here in NorCal and upgraded with less than 10 races. Likely helped that I was on the podium 3x, but maybe not.
> 
> Even though I rode a lot before i started crit racing each race I see / learn something new. It is about the experience.


Another quick way to upgrade is through some crit series:
Utah Bike Racing

Each race of this crit series, I understand, counts as a USAcycling mass start. So for a $70 number plate (includes first crit) and $90 additional for races($10 per race), you'll have your Cat 5 upgrade in 5 weeks (there's two crits a week).


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Alex_C said:


> It does depend on the region. I participated in the Early Bird series here in NorCal and upgraded with less than 10 races. Likely helped that I was on the podium 3x, but maybe not.
> 
> Even though I rode a lot before i started crit racing each race I see / learn something new. It is about the experience.


My buddy won two of those squirrely birds.


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## TimV (Mar 20, 2007)

Alex_C said:


> It does depend on the region. I participated in the Early Bird series here in NorCal and upgraded with less than 10 races. Likely helped that I was on the podium 3x, but maybe not.
> 
> Even though I rode a lot before i started crit racing each race I see / learn something new. It is about the experience.


I think it depends on the official. I'm also in NorCal. Last year I raced as a Cat 5 and had eight podiums with four wins. I still had to wait until finishing ten races to upgrade.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

The early birds are mentored, with review clinics that also carry upgrade points, so treated differently.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Exactly. I went through the early birds a few years ago and gained a lot from them, much more than any other crits in my first season of racing. Many of the mentors, like Larry Nolan, are assets to the norcal cycling community.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

TimV said:


> I think it depends on the official. I'm also in NorCal. Last year I raced as a Cat 5 and had eight podiums with four wins. I still had to wait until finishing ten races to upgrade.


That is really surprising. I've never heard of a Cat 5 with such great placings who still had to wait to upgrade. I hope you enjoyed all the success. I'm sure the other Cat 5 guys are happy you're gone.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jspharmd said:


> That is really surprising. I've never heard of a Cat 5 with such great placings who still had to wait to upgrade. I hope you enjoyed all the success. I'm sure the other Cat 5 guys are happy you're gone.


LOL, too bad there tends to be a good amount of 4s that constantly do this every year but never upgrade. Throw in some guys who are going from Cat 5 to Cat 2 in about a season and Cat 4 can be challenging.


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## tazunemono (Jun 5, 2013)

TimV said:


> That is the current rule. You must now FINISH 10 races to move up to a Cat 4.


Wait, so starts but DNF don't count? I have 2 starts, 2 DNF (one I had a mechanical issue with 2 laps to go, and 1 I was shelled, lapped by the field on the last lap and pulled) 

So these "starts' don't count?! I'm signing up for Indy Crit in July and plan to enter the Cat 5/citizen and Cat 4/5 races ... I want to make sure that it's worth it for me to enter two races. Otherwise, I'll just enter 1 and focus on a finish. 

USAC website says 10 "finishes" to cat up but people are telling me "starts" ... which is it? I can't believe it's finishes, if you have a bad race, it doesn't count?!?! No way.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

It's finishes, not starts.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

spade2you said:


> LOL, too bad there tends to be a good amount of 4s that constantly do this every year but never upgrade. Throw in some guys who are going from Cat 5 to Cat 2 in about a season and Cat 4 can be challenging.


I was in the running for a points series as a Cat 3 and waited until the end of the series to upgrade. 

By the time I petitioned I had four 1st places, four 2nds, and a few other top fives -- the final tally was 67 upgrade points. Other Cat 3s started to hate me towards the end of the series. But I won it 

(The mandatory upgrade rule is enforced at the end of the calendar year.)



tazunemono said:


> Wait, so starts but DNF don't count? I have 2 starts, 2 DNF (one I had a mechanical issue with 2 laps to go, and 1 I was shelled, lapped by the field on the last lap and pulled)
> 
> So these "starts' don't count?! I'm signing up for Indy Crit in July and plan to enter the Cat 5/citizen and Cat 4/5 races ... I want to make sure that it's worth it for me to enter two races. Otherwise, I'll just enter 1 and focus on a finish.
> 
> USAC website says 10 "finishes" to cat up but people are telling me "starts" ... which is it? I can't believe it's finishes, if you have a bad race, it doesn't count?!?! No way.


What's the hurry? 10 finishes is not that many.

Not to be harsh but if you're worried about doing two races in a day and getting lapped in Cat 5 things aren't going to suddenly get easier in Cat 4. 

I say enter both races and focus on finishing both. Just sit in and wait for the sprint!


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> So these "starts' don't count?! I'm signing up for Indy Crit in July and plan to enter the Cat 5/citizen and Cat 4/5 races ... I want to make sure that it's worth it for me to enter two races. Otherwise, I'll just enter 1 and focus on a finish.
> 
> USAC website says 10 "finishes" to cat up but people are telling me "starts" ... which is it? I can't believe it's finishes, if you have a bad race, it doesn't count?!?! No way.


If you get pulled from the race by an official you should get scored (or given a DNP) and credited with a finish. You may need to follow up with the officials, but you paid your $30, lined up and raced, so you should be proactive about getting credit towards your ten races.


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## ctflower (Dec 25, 2012)

AdamM said:


> If you get pulled from the race by an official you should get scored (or given a DNP) and credited with a finish. You may need to follow up with the officials, but you paid your $30, lined up and raced, so you should be proactive about getting credit towards your ten races.


So DNP does not equal DNF?


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> So DNP does not equal DNF?


DNP credits you with a finish. The scorers just didn't give you a place. Happens sometimes in larger fields in all categories. That's why in your situation it's worthwhile checking with the scorers afterwards to make sure you were at least scored as a DNP if you were pulled by an official. If you quit on your own that's a DNF and you don't get any credit towards your ten finishes.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I agree that it may be worthwhile to talk to an official after the race -- they could mistake a last place for a DNP or a DNP for a DNF. A brief conversation could make a difference.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I've seen our local officials get placings wrong by 20 or more. Talking doesn't often help either.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

on the other hand look at it like this, if you far enough back in every race that your not getting scored or getting pulled maybe you should focus on fixing that rather than trying to upgrade, its not like it gets easier.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Very true. They make fewer mistakes on the podium. 

It also helps if they recognize you.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

32and3cross said:


> on the other hand look at it like this, if you far enough back in every race that your not getting scored or getting pulled maybe you should focus on fixing that rather than trying to upgrade, its not like it gets easier.


This.


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## ctflower (Dec 25, 2012)

32and3cross said:


> on the other hand look at it like this, if you far enough back in every race that your not getting scored or getting pulled maybe you should focus on fixing that rather than trying to upgrade, its not like it gets easier.


very true. I guess you could upgrade with 10 DNPs, but I wouldn't expect to see much improvement in results though.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

On a related note, one of my Cat 3 teammates smacked down a Cat 4 racer who was obsessed with upgrading. The 4 to 3 upgrade guidelines are as follows:

*Category 4 to 3:* 20 points; or _experience in 25 races with a minimum of 10 top-10 finishes with fields of 30 riders or more; or 20 pack finishes with fields over 50._ 30 Points in 12 months is a mandatory upgrade.
-USA Cycling-sanctioned rider camps and clinics that are approved by the Local Associations for upgrading will count as a maximum of three upgrade points when upgrading from category 4 to 3.​
The Cat 4 was hanging his hat on the "experience" criteria.

The smackdown was put this way:* If you've done over 20 Cat 4 races and never placed better than 7th, why do you think you'll enjoy Cat 3? You need to win a race before you upgrade.* 

To this day I believe that has been the rule in my club.


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## SRock24 (Mar 12, 2012)

TimV said:


> That is the current rule. You must now FINISH 10 races to move up to a Cat 4.


I think it more depends on how well you do i think. I only did 7 mass starts and was able to upgrade but all were top 10 finishes and a W as well. A buddy of mine did the same in 8 starts. It might just be up to the admin who reviews your upgrade request.

There is no rush to upgrade. The only reason i did was because i wanted a longer race in early spring (had a good cardio base from swim season). As a couple people mentioned, the competition only gets stiffer...


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