# Just simply hitting the wall...cannot get to a century no matter what I do. HELP!



## Typetwelve

I've had to stop riding with friends because they are now pushing the rides longer and longer and I just can't muster the effort most of the time...or, if I do, I seriously pay for it.

Ok...so since I've asked such a complex question, let me give what I know.

-I've been riding road since 2012, can muster 30-40 miles well, can seriously-struggle to 50 or a 100K and have peaked out at 75 miles...which almost killed me. 

-I normally ride 2500-3000 miles/year. Summer is often a 20mi/20mi/30-40mi/10mi week for me (this would be a perfect week). Two 20mi sessions M-F, "long" on Sat, short "recovery" on Sunday. Again, I can go longer than 40mi...but it is a miserable experience for me to do so.

-37 year old male, 170lbs, max HR in the 190's (this is a possible key point).

-I eat well on rides, stay hydrated, I know this is important. When I ride, I do not consume caffeine. 

I stated riding with a Garmin 500 and HR monitor last summer and I think I'm beginning to see what my problem is...the problem is, I do not know how to fix it as nothing seems to be working.

I believe my heart rate may be the issue.

No matter what I do...I seem to spend all of my time in Z3...no matter what. My average is almost always in the very high 150's, low 160's.

I did a nice, 37 mile ride a few weeks back. 15.6mph pace (which is unremarkable at best), 2:22:54 time...average HR 153 with 1:32:50 of the ride being in Z3.

Another, 50mi ride was again, a very lackluster 15.2mph pace, 3:19:42 time, HR average of 156 and 2: 17:22 in Z3.

Now...I am a good climber and for a mortal, a pretty explosive sprinter...but the endurance is simply not there. We have a local Strava segment that is a 1mi climb. I'm currently 8th out of 300'ish riders. Of the top 10...the highest average HR up that hill is 175. I'm sitting at 190.

For the heck of it...I strapped on my HR monitor for a family ride. At rest, I was sitting at 99bpm. Within 1 min (actually, less than 1 min), my HR went to 159bpm and that was riding along with my 6 year old at 12mph on a comfort bike.


I'm guessing my HR being in Z3 so much is quite possibly the reason why I cannot do long rides at this point. On the other hand, perhaps I'm wrong. Haw many of you will do a Z3 100K? is this common? 

I just can't buy that I'll have to ride my first century at 10mph just to keep my HR in a sustainable zone...


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## Oxtox

you're 37 and your resting pulse is 99 bpm...?

might want to see a cardiologist.


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## Typetwelve

Oxtox said:


> you're 37 and your resting pulse is 99 bpm...?
> 
> might want to see a cardiologist.


Yeah...that day it was...it varies.

Just sitting here now at my desk, I just did two pulls. One was 70bpm, the other was 69bpm. 

I guess I should possibly verify my Garmin HR strap to make sure i'm not getting silly #'s...


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## ibericb

I doubt that was a resting pulse. A resting pulse is lying dead still, and having been there for along enough (15 min's) for your pulse rate to be stable. I would bet you are 60 or below for a true resting.

This is a complete and total SWAG, but my guess is that you've spent most of your training time and effort for the past 3 years in Z3 and above. Your heart is probably quite strong, and very responsive, but you probably developed strength (read thick heart wall muscle) way ahead of stroke volume. Related to that, you probably haven't yet optimally developed the best metabolic pathways, cell enzymes, and mitochondrial density needed for efficient fat utilization to allow you to go the distance more readily. This is what old fashioned base-training was about - metabolic pathways and cardiac stroke volume.

If this is important to you, you should get to a human performance lab at either a major medical center or university, one that works with cyclists, to get tested and consult with an exercise physiologist. The testing will cost you ~ $200-$300, depending on what you get done, and what level of consultation you get. Barring any previously unknown medical issues, that should set you on the right path.


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## Typetwelve

ibericb said:


> I doubt that was a resting pulse. A resting pulse is lying dead still, and having been there for along enough (15 min's) for your pulse rate to be stable. I would bet you are 60 or below for a true resting.
> 
> This is a complete and total SWAG, but my guess is that you've spent most of your training time and effort for the past 3 years in Z3 and above. Your heart is probably quite strong, and very responsive, but you probably developed strength (read thick heart wall muscle) way ahead of stroke volume. Related to that, you probably haven't yet optimally developed the best metabolic pathways, cell enzymes, and mitochondrial density needed for efficient fat utilization to allow you to go the distance more readily. This is what old fashioned base-training was about - metabolic pathways and cardiac stroke volume.
> 
> If this is important to you, you should get to a human performance lab at either a major medical center or university, one that works with cyclists, to get tested and consult with an exercise physiologist. The testing will cost you ~ $200-$300, depending on what you get done, and what level of consultation you get. Barring any previously unknown medical issues, that should set you on the right path.


Great response! Thanks!

I will definitely take that advice. I do seem to sit steady at Z3 nearly all of the time...which would explain things a bit.


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## tlg

How did you determine your max HR? How did you set up your HR zones? 



Typetwelve said:


> We have a local Strava segment that is a 1mi climb. I'm currently 8th out of 300'ish riders. Of the top 10...the highest average HR up that hill is 175. I'm sitting at 190.


Comparing your HR to random strangers on Strava is useless.


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## Typetwelve

tlg said:


> How did you determine your max HR? How did you set up your HR zones?
> 
> Comparing your HR to random strangers on Strava is useless.


Honesty is the best policy so here goes...internet and personal experience. I set my max HR at 195 because that's the highest I've ever hit.

I'll gladly admit I do not know jack-crap about any of this...so I'm beginning my journey here. I've just noticed that guys of my similar shape/size that I personally know run much lower HR than me on a consistent basis...so I thought I'd ask some questions to see if anyone else is experiencing this...


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## ibericb

I am a fan of the work of Dr. Stephen Seiler. He's an exercise physiologist who has done some outstanding work with endurance athletes. This treatise, which was put together by him and has since been added to by some others, is dated, but everything in it on basic physiology and training is still good and relevant. It may help you understand the whats and whys. Before you dig into that though, you might want to watch this talk Seiler gave in 2013 on Polarization Training. It's based on the same principles included in the treatise linked previously.


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## duriel

Having professional testing would be a good thing. 
I doubt they will find any problems. You just need to change up your rides. You say you never go out of Z3, but you stated you have hit 190. 
Go out and push hard for a short ride. Do intervals. Go out for an easy long ride. Go for a ride that has a 7 mile hill. Maybe you need to change riding partners as they are going too hard? If your physically fit, there is really no reason why you can't do a long ride, unless your dna mutant.
If you go for a long ride, remember you have to back your normal pace down a little.


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## ibericb

Yep - that's pretty much the gist of it. The one complication I see in the OP's case is the "friends". I suspect they are ready (more experience?) for the duration and intensity combination they are riding, and the OP isn't quite there, yet. 

Being able to do a century ride in itself shouldn't be a problem for the OP now, on his own or with a different group. With some work (training) he can probably have both the endurance and the pace of the group he has been riding with. It's simply a matter of time and effort. 

If he wants to make the step up to that group he has been riding with, then he will need to train (work) to get there. The major advantage of performance testing is it will tell him quite accurately where his key physiological markers are, and he can use those to structure his training to reach his goals most efficiently. Alternatively he could choose to ride on his own, or with a different group that is better matched to his current capabilities, and grow over time. It will just take a lot longer.


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## ziscwg

duriel said:


> Having professional testing would be a good thing.
> I doubt they will find any problems. You just need to change up your rides. You say you never go out of *Z3, but you stated you have hit 190. *
> Go out and push hard for a short ride. Do intervals. *Go out for an easy long ride.* Go for a ride that has a 7 mile hill. Maybe you need to change riding partners as they are going too hard? If your physically fit, there is really no reason why you can't do a long ride, unless your dna mutant.
> If you go for a long ride, remember you have to back your normal pace down a little.


I kind of wonder what his HR threshold is. 


I sounds like he needs more of these Z2 rides. 


The other thing that come that comes to mind is he is starting his longer rides too hard. 

Besides it's other training uses, this is why I got a power meter. I would notoriously start my centuries too hard. I somehow thought I had this endless supply of energy. I finished, but I was not comfortable. I'm not saying get a power meter. I'd get some professional coaching first.


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## ibericb

One of the pitfalls in using "zones", is it really depends on whose zone system you're using. I use Seiler's (Norwegian) 5 zone system. There is a different UK system (6 zones), and then there is the one commonly cited by Coggan, Friel, et al. The Zone numbers aren't directly comparable. But, there isn't any magic in any of them. What's important to appreciate is where whichever system you use leaves you relative to the lower key metabolic thresholds.

There have been several published studies of direct comparisons of various training strategies. Here's one, and another here. The "experts" will debate the merits of them. I prefer to follow results from well controlled studies. YMMV.


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## Alfonsina

Is your HR strap reliable? have you actually checked your pulse when you get 159 on a 6 yr old's ride?


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## Srode

1. You mentioned you are eating well and staying hydrated, but would like to hear more about what your feeding plan is and what you are doing for hydration - specifically for hydration how many bottle (and what size) of what fluid you are drinking over what period of time and what temperature it is outside. 

2, A century ride at Z3 is a pretty hard ride considering you don't put in many miles a year and your weekly rides don't include any long rides if you ask me. The top end of Z2 at most is probably a more appropriate pace if you are struggling to complete a century. In Z3 you are burning up more glycogen which may be the limiter. 

3. Personally, I think you need to add a long ride once a week to your normally weekly riding plan. Conventional approach is start at what you are comfortable with and add 10% each week for that long ride.


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## joeinchi

Unless I missed something, it's not clear what you mean by hitting the wall, getting killed or paying for it. Are your legs fatigued and unable to generate power? Or are you gasping for air and dizzy? What system is failing: aerobic or anaerobic?

I also didn't see mention of your cadence and how you chose it? I'll let someone more knowledgeable explain the physiological implications but you should choose a rate that produces optimal speed and endurance. For newer riders, a good pace can often be found between 80-90 rpm and making sure you rarely exceed it.


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## Typetwelve

joeinchi said:


> Unless I missed something, it's not clear what you mean by hitting the wall, getting killed or paying for it. Are your legs fatigued and unable to generate power? Or are you gasping for air and dizzy? What system is failing: aerobic or anaerobic?
> 
> I also didn't see mention of your cadence and how you chose it? I'll let someone more knowledgeable explain the physiological implications but you should choose a rate that produces optimal speed and endurance. For newer riders, a good pace can often be found between 80-90 rpm and making sure you rarely exceed it.


I apologize...my descriptors aren't very good, are they?

A brief history...

I began road riding with some friends...all of us at the same time, give or take. By early 2013, it was apartment I was advancing more than them in terms of speed/power/etc. I was becoming a far better climber than the group, and all around faster.

At first.

As we all pushed the miles, 25 to 35...35 to 45...45 to 100K and eventually to century rides, it became apparent I just wasn't able to go the distance they were. Now, understand...we are all desk jockeys, late 30's and truth be told, I am the leanest of the group (not that this matters a ton, really). On shorter efforts, I can easily out ride the lot of them...but rack those miles up and the tables turn.

Sub 40 miles, I can be a very strong rider...and my legs never cause me issues, no matter how far I go. On long efforts, my problem is upper torso fatigue and mental fatigue (see below). My back will be screaming, my neck, I'll have major overall all fatigue issues and get this mental "fog" thing going on.

A 100K ride, even at moderate speeds will render me worthless afterwards. It's normally all I have in the tank to finish the ride and afterwards is extreme fatigue, extreme sleepiness, mental confusion and hours of post "temp-pass-out" whenever I stand up from any type of sitting position. It's not pleasant and a serious waste of the rest of the day. 2013 I did regular 50+ mile rides and my condition never got any better no matter how many times I completed one.

The time I did the 75 mile ride...I was barely in a mental state to drive afterwards...I was confused, off balance. I had to sit for some time before I even attempted to drive home. This was fall 2013 and I had planned a century (again, after multiple 50-65 mile rides that summer). in the end, I dropped at 75 because I just was falling apart, especially in my head. My friends finished the century. (BTW, by "confused" I mean "there but not there"...kind of an odd, out of body feeling...like I'm watching myself. I got this often on long mile efforts.)

Long story short...this kind of crap doesn't happen to my friends and none of them reflect how I feel after long rides. I've even had friends snapping their fingers in my face when were on a group ride with "anybody home" remark. They tell me I get this odd, distant look in my eyes after a few hrs on the saddle.

This is the primary reason why I don't ride with them very often...they often do 75-100 mile rides on the weekends and with the way that kind of ride effects me...I don't dare try it anymore. I can still leave them in the dust on a fast paced 25 miler (funny as this this really doesn't effect me like hrs on the saddle will).

Possibly long distance cycling just isn't for me? I just don't get how so many that I can whoop on in a 20-30 mile group ride can do a century and I cannot (at least not safely).




*EDIT*

You know...doing some reading...this sounds like I'm bonking, doesn't it?.....................


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## ibericb

With that there are at least three issues to consider:

1. Overall health - while I suspect it's not very likely, as there would probably be other issues and symptoms, there possibly could be some underlying health issues that are limiting your endurance/effort. You should probably get this checked out before you try pushing yourself to that failure point again.

2. Pace / training - you may just be going out too hard initially, and running out of gas as the duration racks up. Basically bonking. You can overcome that by going at a reduced effort, which is typically what is needed as the duration increases. Training, if properly structured, will increase your capacity for duration/effort over time. It takes time and effort, but unless there is something physical limiting you, you can improve your output and endurance. That leads to ...

3. Hydration and Nutrition - how long you can go at a given pace will be, to a significant extent, limited by your glycogen stores at the beginning. While on-bike nutrition is necessary for longer rides, at the pace you're riding it alone won't be enough. You can either reduce the pace significantly (see 2), or possibly be better fueled before, and then add to it as you ride. Typically, you'll be burning calories about 2-3 times faster than you can absorb and process them while riding, if your on-bike foods are optimal. Hydration is the other significant part. How much and what are your drinking? How much weight are you losing on your rides? Maintenance of plasma volume and key electrolyte levels (mostly sodium) is key to performance and endurance.


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## Clyde250

My 2 cents,

Hydration and food. If there is one thing that I have learned, after about 40 miles, it's all what you have ingested. Experiment with different foods, sports drinks and combinations. Assuming your first hour on the bike is strong, there shouldn't be a drop of more than 20% by hour 3. If there is, it's the fuel, not the motor.


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## Alfonsina

If you are riding about 6 hours a week or so at a recreational pace (i.e. your perfect week), I am not sure what you are expecting? Your buddies are probably doing more mileage. You can cross compare if you are using strava. Are you eating on longer rides? (ie the failed centuries, I don't mean your 30-40 milers). 
Define whoop it?


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## Mandeville

If you are 37 and have been riding since 2012 and have ridden regularly including distances that you mention then if you are healthy you should have no problem riding 100 miles if you stay hydrated and take in calories while riding. Barring extremes like a great deal of climbing, weather, or pushing a much too fast of a pace you should be able to do it easily. 

Since you are not able to do it and have significant physical limitations when you try to ride longer rides you should definitely first look to a health care provider to check or confirm your health status. 

If your health is fine then look to what I mention as well as what the other posters have offered up.


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## robt57

Resource management.


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## joeinchi

Still missing one last piece of the puzzle: Cadence. 

If you spin too fast, >100 rpm, you'll use up your blood glucose pretty quickly and that's something your brain needs to function properly. It can be replaced easily enough through carbs but a lower spin rate might reduce the likelihood of bonking, as well.

I've had that out of body, brain fog feeling and it only happens if I go too long without eating. Even with a 90 rpm cadence, I know 90 minutes is my limit. So if I know I'm going to push hard for over 2 hours, I'll definitely start eating at the 1 hour mark.


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## ibericb

Cadence by itself is meaningless. The rate of energy consumption is a result of power output, not cadence. Power is a product of force x cadence.


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## joeinchi

Agreed.

But if we look at power and force as constants and use different gears to vary the cadence, would such changes have no affect on glucose and glycogen consumption rates?


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## ibericb

joeinchi said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But if we look at power and force as constants and use different gears to vary the cadence, would such changes have no affect on glucose and glycogen consumption rates?


IF P = F x C

Then C = P/F

You can't fix power and force, then vary cadence.

There was an old thread on spinning vs. mashing that got revived in January. We had a good discussion on the subject, in which I pointed to several research efforts to determine if there is an "optimal cadence". The answer from the available research is it depends. Somewhere in the discussion Coach Alex Simmons weighed in with this nugget of wisdom:

_"...once people realise that cadence (or torque) isn't an independent variable of human cycling power output (since muscle contraction forces and speeds are not independent) then they'll realise that looking for optimal cadence is a pretty futile exercise.

Cadence is simply an outcome of the effort level (power), the gear chosen and the resistance forces. It's not something that we can independently control. 

What we can control is our effort level and gearing, so I suggest people focus on their effort level (power output) and choose a gear appropriate for the situation."_​


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## joeinchi

Yes, "effort level ... appropriate for the situation" is probably a simpler way of looking at it. Cadence definitely requires context, so what I really want to know is if the OP is:

- Spinning over 100 rpm? (which would be on the high side)
- Spinning at a faster rate than his buds while going the same speed?

The elevated heart rate suggests the OP may be working harder than he needs to and I wanted to see if a simple cadence change might remedy that.


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## duriel

Sounds like you all are learning together, I think they learned something better than you....
Specifically on your 100 K or mile ride:
AverageSpeed/Distance/elevation change?
What is the temperature/humidity?
How much water are you drinking/hr?
How any calories are you eating/hr?
If you don't know these things, you need to learn.

I think your problem is a very basic misunderstanding of what your body needs on long efforts.


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## Mergetrio

Great read thus far. How about simply that his body is exhausted after 75 miles? What would cause exhaustion and what would prevent it? Someone mentioned "energy (food) management"?


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## Social Climber

I'm going with he's riding too hard out of the gate, not adequately fueling and hydrating, and then bonking. The OP should explain what kind of nutrition/hydration he's getting on these longer rides: what is he eating, what is he drinking? How often? How many calories is he getting per hour? Questions like that. 

I'd also be curious about the terrain of these rides. Is it largely flat? Rolling? Hilly? Maybe he is grinding too hard up the climbs? Are the climbs short and steep or long slogs (or some combination of the two)? What cadence is he at when climbing?

And maybe he should just try some long (4+ hours) slow distance rides solo just to see how he does, while he is not worried about keeping up with (or showing up  ) his friends.

Best of luck figuring this out. There is no reason I can think of why a healthy 37 YO can't work up to a comfortable century ride.


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## robt57

Social Climber said:


> I'm going with he's riding too hard out of the gate, not adequately fueling and hydrating, and then bonking.


I am going with that also, only I just say 'Resource Management'. Simply put.


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## ibericb

Mergetrio said:


> Great read thus far. How about simply that his body is exhausted after 75 miles? What would cause exhaustion and what would prevent it? Someone mentioned "energy (food) management"?


Five things, previously noted:

1. Lack of training to develop the capacity for the duration at the intensity he is attempting - which relates to ...
2. To great an intensity, exhausting his glycogen stores before he gets to the end;
3. Hydration alone, which can led to similar symptoms as bonking, but is entirely different;
4. Pre-ride nutrition - insufficient glycogen on board at the start for the duration/intensity even when supplemented during the effort, and/or insufficient intake once underway;
5. Fundamental health issue, which given his history and what he's done over shorter distances is unlikely, but not out of the question.


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## Mergetrio

ibericb said:


> Five things, previously noted:
> 
> 1. Lack of training to develop the capacity for the duration at the intensity he is attempting - which relates to ...
> 2. To great an intensity, exhausting his glycogen stores before he gets to the end;
> 3. Hydration alone, which can led to similar symptoms as bonking, but is entirely different;
> 4. Pre-ride nutrition - insufficient glycogen on board at the start for the duration/intensity even when supplemented during the effort, and/or insufficient intake once underway;
> 5. Fundamental health issue, which given his history and what he's done over shorter distances is unlikely, but not out of the question.


With respect to #4 I wonder whether the OP does enough or needs to do more "carbo loading"?


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## Jay Strongbow

Typetwelve said:


> Sub 40 miles, I can be a very strong rider...and my legs never cause me issues, no matter how far I go. On long efforts, my problem is *upper torso fatigue *and mental fatigue (see below). *My back will be screaming, my neck*, I'll have major overall all fatigue issues and get this mental "fog" thing going on.


Sounds like you have some bike fit problems. Lack of core strength may be a factor too.


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## bing181

Jay Strongbow said:


> Sounds like you have some bike fit problems. Lack of core strength may be a factor too.


I was going to throw that in. Not the cause of the major issues, but could be a serious contributor. To the OP, have you had a good, professional fit? Can make a very big difference (or not ...).


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## woodys737

What Oxtox said. 37 and 170 lbs doing 99bpm then <1min it's at 159bpm doing 12mph is not normal assuming your HRM is correct. Can you hold a conversation after your HR stabilizes at 160-ish?


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## motoricker

I didn't thoroughly read all the other responses, but I did note there is a lot of good info there.

Here are just my top of the head suggestions. I have done countless centuries.
1. any time you extend the distance it "almost kills you". Endurance is something that builds over years of training, and has to be rebuilt every new season. That being said, if you can train hard for 75 miles you can undoubtedly finish a century with the extra motivation, pack drafting, etc of the goal ride. 
2. If going for increased endurance, you have to put in at least one long ride per week. Try to extend the long ride by about 10% per week. Yes, it should be really torturous. But you will notice gradual improvement. 
3. After a long ride, take a couple of VERY EASY days. Like 1 hr riding like a little kid. Very easy riding is better for recovery than completely off. The "easy" days are when I actually feel the worst. I get DOMS and feel like I have liver cancer or something, but just tool around very easily. It will get better. 
4. Do one day of intervals that are just long enough to get you to truly max heart rate...maybe like 6 minutes long. Really tear yourself a new A-hole and give yourself 2X the interval time pedaling around very easy between intervals. Many variation of the "intervals" thing is good. It gets you used to going into the red zone. 
4. A lot of eating and hydration info above. I like gatorade because I can get hydration and calories at the same time, but personal preference on this differs. hydration is more important usually than food, but you need food too. 
5. Heart rate is sort of individualized. You have to know what the ranges are for YOU. 
6. You really only need 2 hard training days per week: the long one and the intervals. The others should be VERY easy spinning or "off". Yes, pros and serious amateurs do a lot more, but you (and me) are not pros or olympic contenders. *Make the hard days harder and the easy days easier.*
7. I notice that people who have a lot of "natural" power often seem to waste it at the beginning of rides without seeming to realize it. Make all your accelerations smooth and don't do a lot lof moving around in the pack. Try to "moderate" all speed changes and keep yourself buried in a sheltered place in the pack. Relax and breathe smoothly and deeply. You WILL NEED every ounce of energy you have. That being said, it is usually a lot better to make yourself hurt a little to stay with a smoothly moving pack, because riding by yourself takes A LOT of energy and can be very discouraging.


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## Social Climber

motoricker said:


> That being said, it is usually a lot better to make yourself hurt a little to stay with a smoothly moving pack, because riding by yourself takes A LOT of energy and can be very discouraging.


I agree with everything you said except this. I recommend against straining to keep pace with people than are faster than you on a century ride. You risk blowing yourself out early if you do. I would let the pack go and try to settle in with a slower group, or just go solo. I've done plenty of centuries without much drafting. While my overall speed was somewhat slower than it would have been in a paceline, I didn't have any issues completing them. The key to century + rides is to keep to a pace where you are comfortable. They are not the time to try to keep to someone else's that is faster than that.


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## Rip Van Cycle

Wow, no shortage of hypotheses here. Let's assume that the basics are taken care of- you have a good-fitting bike that is not the direct cause of your discomfort. You've educated yourself about decent nutrition and your ideal foods for topping off glycogen stores. You heed the "drink-before-you're thirsty/eat-before-you're hungry" bromide. Your experience is such that you know your chosen discomfort-minimizing cadence rate. You recognize that it's a challenge that will (at first) take the better part of half-a-day... and it's nothing like a race. 

To this, I would merely add-- there's no shame in stopping. Several times, if need be. Hey, just draining properly should require a few stops. If you're doing your first century as part of an organized ride, then your speed concerns should be limited to staying ahead of the broom-wagon. You'll feel a lot better taking 9 hours and finishing than you will trying to do it 2 hours more quickly and DNF'ing on account of near-Biblical knowledge of The Man Who Brings the Pain.


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## Rogus

I bet the "friends" he rides with love him. He's so much faster, stronger, better climber, and 8th on a Strava climbing segment. They sit in behind him as he pulls them along for 40 miles and then blows up as they cruise off into the distance after he's done all the work. This is just speculation on my part, but I could see it being an issue. As others have said besides making sure about the health issues the OP might be going out too hard. It's a mistake we've all made at least once. Some of us actually learn to stop doing it...most of the time.


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## Typetwelve

Rogus said:


> I bet the "friends" he rides with love him. He's so much faster, stronger, better climber, and 8th on a Strava climbing segment. They sit in behind him as he pulls them along for 40 miles and then blows up as they cruise off into the distance after he's done all the work. This is just speculation on my part, but I could see it being an issue. As others have said besides making sure about the health issues the OP might be going out too hard. It's a mistake we've all made at least once. Some of us actually learn to stop doing it...most of the time.


There's a bit of smart-A in this response...not really sure why you'd go down that road, that I know of...I'm trying to be honest with what I can and cannot do.

But I'll play along...as I stated earlier, I really do not group ride at all anymore. As a matter of fact, I haven't in well over a calendar year. I can't do the long miles and refuse to limit the group as the duration racks up.




On topic...thanks again for the replies...I am still reading, gathering data and changing my rides up. I did a solo, Z2, 21 mile ride last night. Definitely lost some speed (average was 16.5mph) compared to what I normally do on this route (18-19mph), but I kept my HR to an average of 143, max at 166...its not easy though, I really have to stay on top of it. I can cruise into the 160's quickly if I do not pay attention to it...getting in the high 170s/low 180s was really easy on harder efforts.


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## ibericb

Typetwelve said:


> ...I did a solo, Z2, 21 mile ride last night. Definitely lost some speed (average was 16.5mph) compared to what I normally do on this route (18-19mph), but I kept my HR to an average of 143, max at 166...its not easy though, I really have to stay on top of it. I can cruise into the 160's quickly if I do not pay attention to it...getting in the high 170s/low 180s was really easy on harder efforts.


I think you're on to something. Keep at it, and avoid the desire to go harder / faster, and you can go far.


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## Typetwelve

ibericb said:


> I think you're on to something. Keep at it, and avoid the desire to go harder / faster, and you can go far.


I'm definitely going to take the "go slow to go faster" approach at this. I'll do another 20 tonight and Thurs at this tempo then go for a 40-50 Sat morning and see how it goes.


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## Mandeville

IMO you have some type of health issue. What is is or could be I have no idea or then speculation of numerous possibilities. You need a thorough competent evaluation. Only that can give you an accurate complete answer. (Your specific case history of symptoms how and when you get them will be key so have them ready for when you see someone.)

There's no reason a healthy person of your age and regular exercise level, (mileage), should have any difficulty of consequence to hinder or prevent you from riding 100 miles--not as you describe anyway. 

Yesterday I just set out on an ride with a day to kill. No goals. I ended up doing 81 miles with 3000 feet of climbing with the heaviest climbs well into the ride. Six hours ride. The day was warm and sunny. I rode at my normal exercise pace. During the ride I had four bottles of water and a bottle of Gatorade, plus some energy bars. The only reason I turned around when I did was because of bad road. 

Other than getting too much sun and being normally tired from the ride there was no problems. I'm 69 and weigh over 200 pounds. I had a quadruple bypass heart surgery nearly sixteen years ago. (Problem that led up to the condition necessitating the surgery was identified and eliminated and hence the optimal permanent recovery.)

So get yourself checked out. Good luck and hope you get the problem identified and resolved and the peace of mind that will go with it not to mention further enjoyment on the bike.


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## ibericb

Typetwelve said:


> I'm definitely going to take the "go slow to go faster" approach at this. I'll do another 20 tonight and Thurs at this tempo then go for a 40-50 Sat morning and see how it goes.


My suspicion is you will do just fine, but you may be annoyed at the time it takes. Don't worry about the time. Barring some fundamental health issue, if you want to go faster that's a matter of training and genetic limitations.


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## bigjohnla

I really believe you are training too hard. I was a distance runner in high school back in the early 70s. We almost never ran hard. The majority of our training was long slow runs focusing on running smoothly. If you had to struggle to keep up, you were going way too fast. We would also stop in the middle and stretch for 5 or so minutes. We were also told to lie down every chance you got. This was teenagers. It worked. We won the district every year I was there and the state title when I was a freshman. Our coach also ended up as track coach at LSU and spent his later years as a speed coach for many professional athletes.
I think that all of these ideas apply very well to cycling. Slow down, ride smoother and ride longer distances taking frequent stops.


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## 9W9W

I have dealt with something similar last year. I would kill myself on the bike and spend hours comatose and days recovering... for mediocre efforts. I wasn't eating enough. I started taking in more food, mixing powder in both bottles and even thought I am fatter, I'm riding further and recovering fast and most importantly.... feeling alright (normal tired) after serious efforts (and not borderline fainting).

Just sharing what worked for me.


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## olr1

It does sound like you've forgotten that it's meant to be enjoyable!

My advice would be to leave all your measuring things at home for a while, spend time just riding a bike without looking at your heart rate, without looking at your mileage, with looking at the world you're travelling through.

You're in a negative feedback loop where you are constantly using your heart rate to remind yourself that you can't ride 100 miles.

Choose a destination 50 miles away from home; ride there, replenish your food and water then ride home. 

It's that easy, it's just riding a bike a long way, and coming home on familiar roads will help.

I don't think you have any physical problem, I do think you are developing a mental stumbling block and need to switch off and just ride.


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## smokva

Typetwelve, I'm male and 37 just like you.
My max hear rate is similar to yours 192, my LT is ~172 or in "watt world" my FTP is 350W. 
So we have at least similar numbers regarding HR.

When I do long rides 150+ km my average HR is below or around 135 bpm. To have HR at 160 bpm in average means you have gone full gas and no wonder you can't do it for longer than 2-3 hours. IF I go 160 bpm for 3 hours I would feel it next day.

I'll presume you don't have any heart condition or problem! If you can't lower tempo enough to have avg HR of 135 go and visit doctor!
Since you finish all your rides at avg HR 160bpm you are going too strong and you are always tired and overtrained. You probably haven't developed muscle endurance because all your rides are too short because of tempo that is too strong. Basically your training is wrong. You lack proper build up in the phase of base training and go directly to "chasing mode" without proper low intensity endurance build-up.

I don't see anything else than to advise you to start from beginning. Forget group rides and chasing at high intensity for some time. First take one week off the bike to have proper rest and than next 4 weeks ride alone in slow tempo.

Try something like this...
Week 1: 30 km, 50 km, -, 50 km, 40, -, 80 km
- TOTAL: 250 km at slow pace (135 bpm AVG)

Week 2:, -, 40 km, 50 km, -, 60 km, -, 110 km,
- TOTAL: 260 km at slow pace (135 bpm AVG)

Week 3: -, 40 km, -, 60 km, -, -, 80 km,
- TOTAL: 180 km at slow pace (135 bpm AVG)

Week 4: -, 30 km, -, 30 km, 30 km, -, 150 km,
- TOTAL: 240 km at slow pace (135 bpm AVG)

After you have done above you can start rising tempo, but do it only once per week on rides no longer than 2 hours. You can also stop doing long Sunday rides and increase Weekday distances, to have weekly total somewhere in 150-250 km range, depends how much time you have. Do this for next few weeks. After that you can start to include few intervals (sprint on hupser for 10 seconds) in one ride per week. Every weekend you should include an longer rider of 100+ km. And don't forget to rest, if you are tired skip the day. If you don't feel good after 20 min of ride turn back and go home or make it short recovery drive. Just remember that less is more in the end.
From every ride (except long weekend rides) you should come home feeling fresh thinking you haven't done enough. If you have sore legs after the ride drink protein shake in first 20 min after the ride. You might consider drinking supplement vitamines and minarels like Twinlab Dualtabs (I like them very much). On longes rider eat one banana every hour, drink 1 litre per hour, use isotonics. If you are on all day long rides stop and have proper meal (pizza or something that you like and can digest).
If you think distances I gave you are too much, shorten them, just don't overdo yourself. Those would be good distances for me, maybe they won't do it for you.

All of this this should take you some 12 weeks, but that is the price you have to pay for wrong training in the start. Now you should be ready for group rides and faster tempo. You shouldn't be struggling anymore as you are struggling now.


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## smokva

motoricker said:


> 4. Do one day of intervals that are just long enough to get you to truly max heart rate...*maybe like 6 minutes long. * Really tear yourself a new A-hole and give yourself 2X the interval time pedaling around very easy between intervals. Many variation of the "intervals" thing is good. It gets you used to going into the red zone.


Either you don't know what is interval training or you are trying to kill the guy with 6 min intervals. I hope OP will not listen to this advice.
When you have a day of interval training you do intervals full gas of some 10-20 seconds. The idea is not to stay anaerobic for too long. Between intervals you go easy and bring puls back to very low. No more than 7-8 intervals are needed for beginners like OP.
6 minutes is tempo riding, not interval and is done only slightly above FTP. During interval you have to dig deep, as much as you can.


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## tednugent

*Just simply hitting the wall...cannot get to a century no matter what I do. H...*



Typetwelve said:


> I just can't buy that I'll have to ride my first century at 10mph just to keep my HR in a sustainable zone...


What's better for your sense of accomplishment?

DNF or completing one at 10 mph?

I choose the latter. Then you can set goals for improvement.

So what so the interwebz mocks you for your average pace?

Completing a century is a great milestone to achieve for a cyclist


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## willstylez

olr1 said:


> It does sound like you've forgotten that it's meant to be enjoyable!
> 
> My advice would be to leave all your measuring things at home for a while, spend time just riding a bike without looking at your heart rate, without looking at your mileage, with looking at the world you're travelling through.
> 
> You're in a negative feedback loop where you are constantly using your heart rate to remind yourself that you can't ride 100 miles.
> 
> Choose a destination 50 miles away from home; ride there, replenish your food and water then ride home.
> 
> It's that easy, it's just riding a bike a long way, and coming home on familiar roads will help.
> 
> I don't think you have any physical problem, I do think you are developing a mental stumbling block and need to switch off and just ride.


I agree with this. You don't need all the mumbo-jumbo statistics. Just get on your bike, and ride a lot. And eat well. Drink regularly...I like coconut water mixed with tap water (50 / 50). Stop and eat every 20-30 miles. Enjoy the saddle time, scenery....by yourself. Your goal should be to cycle any amount of miles, SOLO. If you can only complete a certain amount of miles, by hugging someones wheel, then you're not in the proper shape. Get back to the basics, and ride your bike, get off and explore towns, take your mind off the "century" stigma!


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## robt57

Let me toss this into the thread. Self explanatory, been sitting on my computer for as long as I can remember.


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## ibericb

smokva said:


> Either you don't know what is interval training or you are trying to kill the guy with 6 min intervals. ...


Noted exercise physiologist Stephen Seiler would probably disagree with you. In this 2011 report he presents data that shows a high intensity interval scheme of 4 x 8 minutes at ~ 90% max HR to be superior shorter intervals (4 x 4 minutes) at a higher intensity (~95% HRmax), and longer periods (4 x 16 minutes) at lower intensity (~88% of HR max). From that work there seems to be a sweet spot. Clearly, one untrained probably needs to build up over several weeks to that kind of sustained effort.

Alternatively, one of his colleagues more recently compared different interval duration schemes and found that a rapid series of short high intensity intervals with a corresponding short recovery period (30 sec's with 15 sec recovery at 50% of power used during the high effort phase) to be superior in benefit one longer high intensity interval (300 s), when both schemes are used in about the same total work effort time per session.

One of the most recent reports that compared different training schemes can be found here. That work used 4x 4 minutes at 90-95 percent of HR max, with 3 minutes of active recovery between high intensity efforts.

How to optimize interval training remains a topic open to much debate, and is a current research focus of several different groups. From published research results there are multiple routes to comparably achieve the desired adaptations. Whichever scheme is pursued, anyone embarking on such training needs to build up into the scheme over a suitable length of time.


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## skinewmexico

Back to HR zones, are you using standard zones, or zones modified to fit your HR? A lot of people have higher heart rates; my next door neighbor consistently runs 20 BPM over me at the same pace, but he's much stronger. And what about the building base thing, could that apply? I know I didn't get where I could hang with my buddies until a spent a few months going long, and keeping my HR under 130. I also got tested, and later stayed below my LT. But like others have said, I'm thinking complete physical, then a bike fit, then food. I know if I don't eat at one hour, and then about every 30 minutes, I get in trouble.


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