# Concerning Cancellara (spoiler)



## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Let me say first of all that I think his victory was a great one and deserved. 

I also want to say that I think it is the kind of victory that he has criticized in the past when he has lost to it. Referring to his own victory he said: 

-"It was hard. I had to think coldly and follow the attacks."

-“I still don’t know how I really managed all this. Maybe on television it looks like I was playing, but I was just trying to go with these four riders to the finish line and go man against man. I knew I had one card to play. I never attacked, I was mostly on defense, that’s why I said, ‘Go with them to the finish and give everything you have.’”

Read more at Fabian Cancellara wins a rugged Tour of Flanders - VeloNews.com

Considering circumstances, I think he did everything right. It was obvious in the final kilometers that he was tired and struggling. When Van Avermaet attacked from the winning break, he forced Vanmarke to chase it down and followed him. When Cancellara tried to attack from that group, it was a weaker attack than his trademark move and was easily closed down. He measured his efforts, rode in the group, and kept just enough in the tank to take a sprint victory in the end. Well done. 

Van Avermaet was magnificent. He put in the majority of the work in the end and demonstrated that he was the "strongest" in the race. 

I think the last part of the race could be summarized as follows: 

31 kilometers from the end, Van Avermaet attacked and though he brought one rider with him, essentially rode solo for the next 20 kilometers. With his breakaway partner doing no work, he was caught by Cancellara and Vanmarke. The four of them rode to the finish, with Van Avermaet doing the majority of the pulls . He led the group into the final kilometer, was leading the sprint, and was out-kicked at the line by Cancellara while still managing to hold onto a very convincing second place. 

If we replace Van Avermaet with Cancellara in the previous summary, it sounds like the narrative of countless races in the past several years. In those cases though, Cancellara complained profusely about how he had demonstrated that he was the strongest man in the race and was only beaten because someone else used calculated but cowardly tactics. 

Perhaps we are seeing a more mature and smarter Cancellara. Again, I think it was a fantastic and deserved victory and I have no problem with his tactics. It was smart and demonstrated great experience and situational awareness. 



*I also wish to note that I have no problem with how Vandenbergh rode the final 31 kilometers, though he is getting a lot of flak right now for it. His teammates and big favorites Boonen and Terpstra were in the group behind him and he was playing the anchor, a common and very acceptable tactic. There was no reason for him to work. By admission, he was hanging on for dear life in that group and couldn't contribute much anyway that wouldn't have served to do anything but give his stronger breakaway companions a bit of rest to dust him in the end and guaranteeing that his team leaders would not catch them. When he was certain that they were not going to catch up, he took his chance and gave it the best go he could. He got caught and was eventually outsprinted by Cancellara, Van Avermaet, and Vanmarke, all big favorites before the race. He did nothing wrong. 

Excellent race.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

thechriswebb said:


> Let me say first of all that I think his victory was a great one and deserved.
> 
> I also want to say that I think it is the kind of victory that he has criticized in the past when he has lost to it. Referring to his own victory he said:
> 
> ...


he rode a great, tactical race. Maybe not on his best, most dominant form, but maybe that helped him strategically. Maybe he'll take something from this


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

He has to thank Quikstep for blowing the last Kwaremont. They missed it generously


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

good stuff overall, thechris...

here are my thoughts:

- I don't recall Fabu complaining profusely and accusing others of using cowardly tactics, however if he was referring to the 2011 Paris-Roubaix, then it's absolutely warranted. There are many in the press and the peloton who agree with me that it was a shameful display, not worthy of the term "racing". 

- Too often people apply a pre-concieved narrative to an outcome, and end up with neat answers to difficult questions. Cancellara lacking tactics is one of the more common examples of this. Why does he attack from distance? Because that's his strength. Why does he not win sprints? Because there are better sprinters. 

Today he won a sprint from one rider who had done a 30k time trial, another who had a cramp, and another who is just not a very good sprinter. Still, I agree with you, he was very clever in setting up the winning sprint. So, yeah--he has "tactics"!

- Speaking of "tactics": One can certainly second guess the OPQS strategy. No, Vandenbergh did not have to work with GVA, however, had he co-operated there was a chance to possibly go for a 1st or 2nd. He wound up with 4th, which was already the worst (and most likely) outcome he could have gotten, particularly given his lack of any real sprint. 

Once they cleared the Kwaremont, Boonen, et al were not going to get back on as long as Vanmarcke and Fabu worked together (which they did). With the previous parcours, it was likely; in this edition--not so much.


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

Well, Cancellara certainly shut those MSR haters up.

I disagree that van Avermaet was "magnificent." Did he ride a strong race? Yes, absolutely. He was, like you said, the strongest rider today. But he didn't win, and that's because he put in tons of work. He was easily the most active rider in the last 30k. Twice, this season, he's had opportunities where he's clearly the strongest sprinter (imo) and he hasn't won. That may be a product of his team, though, who aren't as strong in the classics as teams like OPQS, Belkin, etc (although I'm hoping Taylor Phinney shows some muscle at P-R next week).

And OPQS, don't even get me started. Geez. They should really take a look at who's calling the tactical shots b/c they've stacked the front group in tons of races thusfar and haven't taken the top step as much as they should have. They had 3 riders in top 7, but two of those riders finished last in their group (Vandenbergh, Terpstra). I thought Vandenbergh should have won. That attack he put in that was covered by van Avermaet was super weak. He didn't do, really, any work in the last 30k and finished fourth. Geez.

But then again, I'm sitting in my office chair right now.

Edit: dnice, I thought it would have made sense if Terpstra and Boonen had worked with Geraint Thomas and (later) Alexander Kristoff to bridge up to the front four. They would have had 3 OPQS of 8 riders and, although Kristoff is fast, I think Boonen, with a somewhat tactical leadout from Terpstra/Vandenbergh, would have won. Think about that crosswinds stage in last year's TdF when Cav won w/ that great leadout by Chavanel.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

dnice said:


> good stuff overall, thechris...
> 
> here are my thoughts:
> 
> - I don't recall Fabu complaining profusely and accusing others of using cowardly tactics, however if he was referring to the 2011 Paris-Roubaix, then it's absolutely warranted. There are many in the press and the peloton who agree with me that it was a shameful display, not worthy of the term "racing".


The situation in the 2011 Paris Roubaix was a different one, in which his complaint was other favorites not working with him to chase down Van Summeren. Concerning that particular race, I enjoyed it because Van Summeren rode his heart out and it was a good example of what happens when people mess around. If you consider the disgrace to be that others wouldn't work with Cancellara, I see that. I do take exception to the accusations against Thor that were rampant after that race; stuff about him being the "leader" and how he should have been there to race. His man was up the road. His team won. I'm sure Thor would have liked to be more than an anchor in the finale but it was the right thing to do. I'm not sure if that is what you are talking about though. 

Cancellara has made the complaint I described on many occasions. Some good examples are his 2nd place finishes at Milan San Remo (disregarding this year's edition).


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Van Avermet did an amazing ride. I was surprised he held on to the line. Usually when someone dangles off the front by themselves for so long the chasers go right past them.
The parallel to some of Cancellara's losses is clear.
I think Cancellara is getting older and more thoughtful in his racing. He doesn't have the infinite power he used to ride everyone else off his wheel. He has to think about where and when to use that energy. 
Maybe he sees an end to his career coming and he wants more wins. He probably has re-run a lot of races in his mind, and doesn't want to make any more mistakes.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

1. A win is a win is a win is a win is a win.
2. What are you talking about? Cancellara was complaining about tactics seen in the past when riders would stay glued to his wheel even when he would deliberately slow down and let everyone else go to away. It is part of the tactics, but let's admit it - it's a little strange and obviously frustrating, especially when a single rider is targeted that way.
3. Cancellara did tons of pulls today. Did we watch the same race today? He pulls Vanmarcke (who only took a short pull) to Van Avermaet for good 10 minutes, and then traded plenty of long pulls with Van Avermaet and to lesser degree with Vanmarcke. 
4. The point of Cancellara's complaints is not that some riders would not take pulls - that's natural. It was that they would ride a negative race tactic, doing everything in their power to prevent a single, specific rider (in most cases - Cancellara) from winning, rather winning themselves or helping their teammates etc. I do not see anything today that showed that sort of "negative" racing tactic.


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> He doesn't have the infinite power he used to ride everyone else off his wheel.


Yes. His attacks don't have the same pop, eh? We saw that in last years Roubaix.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

I haven't heard Cancellara 'complaining' about other racers tactics. He's simply stated the truth. Maybe something gets lost in translation considering english is his sixth language.

In this race in particular people seem to forget the who's/who of international cycling talent that got utterly dropped on the paterberg.


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## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

The one thing I noticed today was how much patience he showed early on. He was a non entity and they didn't even mention his name much even though he was in the front group with 50k to go. He just sat in the pack and let everyone else chase down the early breaks and ride at the front. I saw similar behavior in last years Paris Roubaix.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Very much a tactically played out race on the part of all 4 of them. It was good to the end, well played. I was glad BEIN had it on yesterday.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

thechriswebb said:


> The situation in the 2011 Paris Roubaix was a different one, in which his complaint was other favorites not working with him to chase down Van Summeren. Concerning that particular race, I enjoyed it because Van Summeren rode his heart out and it was a good example of what happens when people mess around. If you consider the disgrace to be that others wouldn't work with Cancellara, I see that. I do take exception to the accusations against Thor that were rampant after that race; stuff about him being the "leader" and how he should have been there to race. His man was up the road. His team won. I'm sure Thor would have liked to be more than an anchor in the finale but it was the right thing to do. I'm not sure if that is what you are talking about though.
> 
> Cancellara has made the complaint I described on many occasions. Some good examples are his 2nd place finishes at Milan San Remo (disregarding this year's edition).


thor was acting out a team strategy, and merits none of my criticism. it is other riders--big name riders with alleged huge ambitions--that focus on defeating one rider, instead of winning, that i'm referring to.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

chudak said:


> The one thing I noticed today was how much patience he showed early on. He was a non entity and they didn't even mention his name much even though he was in the front group with 50k to go. He just sat in the pack and let everyone else chase down the early breaks and ride at the front. I saw similar behavior in last years Paris Roubaix.


Well that's how these races usually go. Besides, at the point, his no. 1 lieutenant, Stijn Devolder was out of the race. No point in killing yourself trying to drop opponents from 75 km out. 
In Flanders especially, if you watch his previous wins, he'd wait until the last 25 or 30 km to show his hand. 
Roubaix is somewhat different.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Van Avermet did an amazing ride. I was surprised he held on to the line. Usually when someone dangles off the front by themselves for so long the chasers go right past them.
> The parallel to some of Cancellara's losses is clear.
> I think Cancellara is getting older and more thoughtful in his racing. He doesn't have the infinite power he used to ride everyone else off his wheel. He has to think about where and when to use that energy.
> Maybe he sees an end to his career coming and he wants more wins. He probably has re-run a lot of races in his mind, and doesn't want to make any more mistakes.


I agree with all of this. In fact, I think it may have been possible that Cancellara was the weakest rider of the final four. VA was a bull yesterday, he was on the front all day and was still pulling hard. It was Vanmarke not Cancellara completed the crucial bridge back to VA and Vandenburgh, he was much more aggressive all day. Finally, Vandenburgh had been saving himself out of the wind for the last half of the race, obviously has great classics form and was likely the most rested of the final four. 

Having said all of that, the finishing order is a textbook example of how strength is only one component in the final. In years past, Cancellara might not have won this one and complained about it afterwards, he's obviously much wiser now.


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

dnice said:


> thor was acting out a team strategy, and merits none of my criticism. it is other riders--big name riders with alleged huge ambitions--that focus on defeating one rider, instead of winning, that i'm referring to.


Like what Cav was on about at HTC a lot.


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

Hiro11 said:


> I agree with all of this. In fact, I think it may have been possible that Cancellara was the weakest rider of the final four. VA was a bull yesterday, he was on the front all day and was still pulling hard. It was Vanmarke not Cancellara completed the crucial bridge back to VA and Vandenburgh, he was much more aggressive all day. Finally, Vandenburgh had been saving himself out of the wind for the last half of the race, obviously has great classics form and was likely the most rested of the final four.
> 
> Having said all of that, the finishing order is a textbook example of how strength is only one component in the final. In years past, Cancellara might not have won this one and complained about it afterwards, he's obviously much wiser now.


Vanmarcke only closed it b/c he was tactically goaded into doing so by Cancellara. Cancellara could have shut that down in an instant, I think.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

I finally agreed with Cancellera about his complaining after that Worlds where he was continually marked, so much that they let Evans go while waiting for Sparticus' reaction...Total joke.
That being said, he's gonna have a huge target on his jersey this Sunday.
Well, larger than usual I mean.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

TehYoyo said:


> Yes. His attacks don't have the same pop, eh? We saw that in last years Roubaix.


No? I saw him smash everyone except for Van Marke after doing a lot of work because he was alone for so long in the group. He then covered the gap to the leading pair quickly. Nobody is strong enough to drop everyone, every time.


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

Cancellara proved to be a great tactician and results are proof enough.

But I thought he was a bit of a douche. You can't refute he leeched off the hard work of his competitors and when they were depleted, barely escaped with a final sprint, a sprint that frankly wasn't that impressive. 

But.... It was a great win. Unfortunately I'm sure his competitors agree with me. You can clearly see the other three were doing their hardest to force Cancellara to take point, to force Cancellara to make a break. To make Cancellara do some work. I know he's there to win, but I think it would have been courtesy and good sportsmanship to do some work.

I didn't watch the whole race, heard his team wasn't helpful, so he may truly have been exhausted. I'm only talking about the last final portion of the race, not critiquing what he may have done during the race before.

It was a great win. He executed his strategy well. But I still think he was a bit of a douche.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

ruckus said:


> Cancellara proved to be a great tactician and results are proof enough.
> 
> But I thought he was a bit of a douche. You can't refute he leeched off the hard work of his competitors and when they were depleted, barely escaped with a final sprint, a sprint that frankly wasn't that impressive.
> 
> ...


he got the other guy to chase. Saved some of his legs for the end and won

that's smart racing


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

TehYoyo said:


> Well, Cancellara certainly shut those MSR haters up.


What are you talking about? Cancellara rode a stupid race at MSR, and a smart one last weekend. Maybe he is starting to brain it out? Or maybe he actually considers himself a sprinter, and uses this result (against 3 lousy sprinters) to reinforce this erroneous self image? I don't know, I hope it's the first.

Although he didn't exactly sit in and wait for the finale like he did at MSR...


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

He did a lot of work to shape the race, and worked to ensure they were not caught. He played a tactical game at the end and crossed the line first, racing one of the smarter tactical races of his career. I'd rather watch that race than his 40K solos for the 3 minute win.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

If you replace the word "douche" in your post with a "tactician" it will make a lot more sense. The whole point of any cycling race is to make the other guy eat the dinner before you lick the plate clean.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Actually, I think the quote is:
“Racing is licking your opponent's plate clean before starting on your own” -HENNIE KUIPER

Same concept, though. Use your opponent's strength as much as possible to help yourself win. There's a fine line between that and wheel-sucking, but in this case I think Fabian is in the clear. He rode smart, used his recent (and not widely publicized) sprint training, and came away with the win.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> Actually, I think the quote is:
> “Racing is licking your opponent's plate clean before starting on your own” -HENNIE KUIPER


This makes a lot more sense.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

so, after today's race, i think it's fair to say that we are seeing a different tactical approach to the classics. no long range attacks dragging along a train of passengers (a la boonen today); no dragging sprinters to the line only to be passed for the win. he even beat sagan twice in sprint finishes (although in fairness to sagan, he--sagan--doesn't appear to quite have the sprint legs after these long, grueling races that he typically does). still...


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

dnice said:


> so, after today's race, i think it's fair to say that we are seeing a different tactical approach to the classics. no long range attacks dragging along a train of passengers (a la boonen today); no dragging sprinters to the line only to be passed for the win. he even beat sagan twice in sprint finishes (although in fairness to sagan, he--sagan--doesn't appear to quite have the sprint legs after these long, grueling races that he typically does). still...


I agree, but I think the difference we are seeing is the decision to go at Boonen, Cancellara, and Sagan with stronger teams. When you have one guy in the break up the road and 2-3 in the group with them, you have so many moves you can make and it makes it tough for them to cover them all. That's OPQS's approach and it worked today (but it didn't in Flanders and other races, including Roubaix last year thanks to two untimely crashes). I like the strategy, but my guess is that the Cannondale and Trek teams catch on soon and add more depth to their classics teams. All in all, it should be fun to watch for years to come.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

dnice said:


> so, after today's race, i think it's fair to say that we are seeing different tactical approach to the classics. no long range attacks dragging along a train of passengers (a la boonen today); no dragging sprinters to the line only to be passed for the win. he even beat sagan twice in sprint finishes (although in fairness to sagan, he--sagan--doesn't appear to quite have the sprint legs after these long, grueling races that he typically does). still...


He takes what races give him to work with, just like any other rider. If the field had looked weak 30km out, he'd have gone for it. The difference is that the competition has risen and more strong guys were there at the end. 

Today was a good lesson about allowing dropped riders back on. Terpstra was out of it, until he wasn't again.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I'll jump back in here to say that I thought that Cancellara's Flanders win was great and his sprint to another podium today in the velodrome was a great show of strength. This all just goes to show that whenever a rider wins by doing anything other than going solo from way out or leading a breakaway the whole time and still managing to win the sprint; basically not drafting behind any other riders throughout the entire race, somebody is going to poo poo their victory.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

thechriswebb said:


> I'll jump back in here to say that I thought that Cancellara's Flanders win was great and his sprint to another podium today in the velodrome was a great show of strength. This all just goes to show that whenever a rider wins by doing anything other than going solo from way out or leading a breakaway the whole time and still managing to win the sprint; basically not drafting behind any other riders throughout the entire race, somebody is going to poo poo their victory.


I'm surprised he didnt at least try to chase down Terpstra.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

That would've virtually guaranteed a finish outside the top-5 for him.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

Cancellara: 7 monument wins

Boonen: 7 monuments

Everyone else in that group: 0 monuments!!

I think it's fair to ask why Fabu didn't pursue, however looking at the respective palmares of the other riders in that group, shouldn't that question be asked in an even more pointed manner of them?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

davidka said:


> That would've virtually guaranteed a finish outside the top-5 for him.


How do you figure that? For someone who claims isn't racing for second I would think would take the gamble.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I am sure they wanted to chase, but were spent and beat up, knew the OPQS guys were not going to help, and hesitated too long to see who would take up the charge first so that they could suck his wheel and go into the velodrome stronger and in the midst of all of that, Terspstra was time trialing away and gone.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

It was also pretty much a no-win situation for them because OPQS played their hand so well. Their best option was to pull a resting Boonen and Stybar into the Velodrome while chasing down Terpstra and then try to beat them all in a bunch sprint. They didn't look excited about the possibility to say the least.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

likely lose vs. guaranteed lose.

ie: racing for second. I prefer the old cancellara.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

foto said:


> likely lose vs. guaranteed lose.
> 
> ie: racing for second. I prefer the old cancellara.


x2.

But since he's gotten a bit older the initial explosiveness isn't there anymore, then we end up with people able to grab his wheel and phone it in.
He's always been a marked man and he knows it, unfortunately he rides like it now.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't know fellas, I think that's a bit of overstatement. Look, the guy still gets his fair share of wins. He just won Flanders the week before for goodness sake. You don't win Flanders by accident or "riding like a marked man." The guy has two Flander-Roubaix doubles and how many podiums and wins in the spring in the last five years? 

Could he possibly have given more this year in Roubaix? Sure, it's possible, maybe even probable, but I think if we are being fair, we have to say that he goes for the win when he can. You can't win them all and this just happens to be one of the ways to neutralize him (until he gets a stronger classics team around him anyway). You put 1-2 strong guys in the break with him to mark him and you send someone with legs on the attack up the road. It's the same thing Garmin Cervelo did to him in 2011 with Hushovd and Johan VS. That kind of strategy is going to be tough for almost anyone to overcome it seems though. It works, that's why teams like OPQS search for depth and do it when they can. It looked like BMC had the same plan, but late crashes and mechanicals ruined it for them.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Can someone explain to me why BMC kept chasing, and hushovd kept running the break out? Was that their way of controlling the race?


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