# Is riding a fixie more dangerous?



## onespeedbiker

I work for the Santa Cruz Police Department and review hundreds of accident reports a year. The City of Santa Cruz has the dubious distinction of having more bicycle accidents per capita than any other city in the western United States; were #1! Anyway our city has seen a sudden rise in fixie accidents. I wonder if anyone, other than NYC Bike Snob, has discussed the danger of riding a fixed gear; this includes those with a front only brake. 

In the last three weeks we have had four serious fixie accidents. The first the rider had no brakes. As he crossed an intersection, a car pulled out of a parking lot on the other side. The bicyclist had plenty of time to stop, but instead planned on passing the car on the left. By the time he realized the left lane was unavailable, it was too late to stop and he crashed into the rear of the car.

The second and third had a front brake. Both were riding down steep hills and lost control when they could not maintain the pedal speed. One had his foot slip off the pedal and the other actually removed his feet from the pedals! Both crashed and got a helicopter ride for their troubles. The forth was more common, he was riding down a steep hill without lights at night and was T-boned @ an intersection.

I have been riding a fixie with a front brake for about 6 years and can probably stop as fast as anyone with dual brakes and a freewheel; certainly faster than a cruiser with a coaster brake. Last month, as an experiment, I road without a brake for two weeks. I had practiced months before and perfected the rear wheel skid. Still, I narrowly missed being run over on several occasions, simply because I could not react fast enough to brake. Even if you have the skid down pat, if you don't have a front brake, you're probably not going to stop has fast as a bike with coaster brake, since a cruiser tire will have a contact patch four times the size. I think we are doing new riders a dis-favor, by not warning them that riding a fixie can have a steep learning curve. What do you think?

Brad


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## BianchiJoe

Yes, I think it is more dangerous to ride a fixed gear. But I think the key, as in almost every other similar physical pursuit (such as skiing, surfing, roller-blading, skateboarding, etc.) is *education*, *practice*, and *knowing your limits*. In the hands of an inexperienced rider, any bike has its inherent risks, but the fact that the pedals don't stop moving on a fixed gear certainly adds an element not found on other bikes. 

Personally, I think riding brakeless in traffic is foolish, regardless of how skilled the rider may be. That said, I'm vehemently opposed to legislating clothing or equipment standards for the sake of rider safety, unless we're going to uniformly apply such mandates to all forms of transportation. But that's probably another topic for another thread.


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## tcruse11

Personally, I don't think it is any harder to stop on my fixie than my geared bike. FYI all of my fixies have a front brake ( read: oh $hit brake). I think a lot of the bike accidents on fixies are caused by Urban Hipsters. I say this without any real proof. However, I have observed a few friends and other hipsters, noting that they hardly ever observe any traffic laws and swerve in and out of traffic. Very few of them stop at stops signs or red lights. I have always thought they had a death wish. If you have seen the youtube videos of different fixed gear races through out NYC, you will note that there are a few of them where riders will get hit by cars b/c they do not stop at stoplights. In sum, I think its certain riders not the bikes themselves.


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## Fredke

BianchiJoe said:


> Personally, I think riding brakeless in traffic is foolish, regardless of how skilled the rider may be. That said, I'm vehemently opposed to legislating clothing or equipment standards for the sake of rider safety, unless we're going to uniformly apply such mandates to all forms of transportation.


Actually, doesn't the law already require brakes on every wheeled vehicle, with specifications on maximum stopping distance?

Requirements for brakes on fixies aren't only about rider safety, but also have serious implications for the safety of pedestrians and other cyclists who could be hit by clueless brakeless cyclists.

Also, I can see someone with a different perspective from yours taking your thoughts about uniform mandates and arguing that if we're not going to require tests and licensing for bicycles and skateboards, we shouldn't require licenses for car and truck drivers either.


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## Pablo

Fredke said:


> Actually, doesn't the law already require brakes on every wheeled vehicle, with specifications on maximum stopping distance?


Traffic laws are generally state or local. Thus, they vary greatly.


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## Pablo

onespeedbiker said:


> I work for the Santa Cruz Police Department and review hundreds of accident reports a year. The City of Santa Cruz has the dubious distinction of having more bicycle accidents per capita than any other city in the western United States; were #1! Anyway our city has seen a sudden rise in fixie accidents. I wonder if anyone, other than NYC Bike Snob, has discussed the danger of riding a fixed gear; this includes those with a front only brake.
> 
> In the last three weeks we have had four serious fixie accidents. The first the rider had no brakes. As he crossed an intersection, a car pulled out of a parking lot on the other side. The bicyclist had plenty of time to stop, but instead planned on passing the car on the left. By the time he realized the left lane was unavailable, it was too late to stop and he crashed into the rear of the car.
> 
> The second and third had a front brake. Both were riding down steep hills and lost control when they could not maintain the pedal speed. One had his foot slip off the pedal and the other actually removed his feet from the pedals! Both crashed and got a helicopter ride for their troubles. The forth was more common, he was riding down a steep hill without lights at night and was T-boned @ an intersection.
> 
> I have been riding a fixie with a front brake for about 6 years and can probably stop as fast as anyone with dual brakes and a freewheel; certainly faster than a cruiser with a coaster brake. Last month, as an experiment, I road without a brake for two weeks. I had practiced months before and perfected the rear wheel skid. Still, I narrowly missed being run over on several occasions, simply because I could not react fast enough to brake. Even if you have the skid down pat, if you don't have a front brake, you're probably not going to stop has fast as a bike with coaster brake, since a cruiser tire will have a contact patch four times the size. I think we are doing new riders a dis-favor, by not warning them that riding a fixie can have a steep learning curve. What do you think?
> 
> Brad


Therer are several factors going into these accidents. It is far from clear to me that a fixe gear bike is the most significant factor in the casue of these accidents. 

Due to the spike in popularity, there are a lot of kids riding fixies that lack general cycling experince or know-how. From what I read, it really sounds like this was a case of kids doing things that were either highly risky, such as speeding through an intersection and at night, or doing things beyond their ability level, like riding down a steep hill. Put these kids on a bike with a free wheel or equally weak braking system (such as a BMX or cyclocross bike) and you'd likely end up with similar and unfortunate results. 

As for riding brackeless, it can be done safely. We've debated this a lot. I ride without brakes on fairly hilly terrain. However, I do not advise others to do so. If someone really want to ride without brakes, I think they need at least a solid year of riding fixed with a brake before going without. 

The principle skills allowing for a fixie can be ridden safely without brakes is awareness and experience. You need to be aware of everything around you that may interfere with your path. This is reletively easy on a deserted road, but is much more complicated on a busy MUT or in city traffic. Also, the mental calculations change as you ride faster. You also need expience as a bike rider generally to be able to make good decisions about the human and car traffic patterns in front of you. If you work on these skills and develop them with brakes, it's my opinion that fixie riding is no more risky than normal bike riding. 

Skidding really doesn't maye you stop all that fast. The skid stop (several in a row) is much more effective. However, again, the real way to stop quickly is to ride in a proper gear and place yourself in good situations through the use of anticipation and forethought. 

Finally, I'm also opposed to laws regarding mandatory brakes on bicycles. Don't the police have enough to do without regulating cyclists. Moreover, there are other wheeled forms of transporation and recreation without brakes, such as skateboards and rollerblades, and no one clamors to regulate them. The last thing we need to do is criminalize cycling.


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## BianchiJoe

Fredke said:


> Also, I can see someone ... arguing that if we're not going to require tests and licensing for bicycles and skateboards, we shouldn't require licenses for car and truck drivers either.


I think that would be a fairly easy argument to defeat, given the vast differences between human-powered and machine-powered vehicles, the speeds at which they travel, the carnage they have the potential to create, and their history of creating it. 

But let's not hijack onespeed's thread.

More to the topic, I know that I can control my fixie just as well as any other bike, but in the worst-case scenario of a chain breaking or a toestrap snapping, there are dangers _unique_ to fixed gear bikes (that could be mitigated by the use of a brake); whether that makes them "more" dangerous than a freewheel bike is hard to determine, given the myriad other factors involved, but my gut-reaction response would be that it probably does.


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## Kalukis

*A Few Points*

1. Although state laws vary, most states seems to already require brakes. Look at the site:
http://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/bikelaw.htm
I didn't look at all states, but all of the ones I did, specifically mentioned brakes.

And California law already says
21201. (a) No person shall operate a bicycle on a roadway unless it
is equipped with a brake which will enable the operator to make one
braked wheel skid on dry, level, clean pavement.

Now, one might make an interesting argument that a rider's legs in a skid stop constitute that brake; file that one away for your next court appearance.

2. Are fixies inherently more dangerous?
Yes, from a public safety point of view. Fixies require more skill and experience to ride safely; when you have an unlicensed population of varying skills riding them, you'll have more accidents are compared to other bicycles which require less skill to ride safely. 

And let's face it; fixies are not attracting the most safety conscience among us, dude.

3. Do we need more laws?
Probably not. The people riding brakeless are already violating the law.

4. Do I personally think people who ride brakeless "have a genetic predispositon to sub-optimal behavior"?
I would not strongly dispute that position; ditto for helmets. But I tend to crash a lot myself.


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## Lifelover

Makes me wonder if the problem is the equipment or the riders.

There has been a drastic increase in accidents of Boomers on Harleys of late as well.

I think it reflects less on the safety of the bike vs the skills (and common sense) of the riders.


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## M.J.

riding a fixed is an advanced skill

riding a fixed without clipping in is an even more advanced skill

the hipster vibe for fixed gears may not be backed up by actual skills 

the consequence of riding beyond one's abilities (or without lights) seems to be the main issue of the four incidents you describe


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## Pablo

Kalukis said:


> 2. Are fixies inherently more dangerous?
> Yes, from a public safety point of view. Fixies require more skill and experience to ride safely; when you have an unlicensed population of varying skills riding them, you'll have more accidents are compared to other bicycles which require less skill to ride safely.
> 
> And let's face it; fixies are not attracting the most safety conscience among us, dude.


So are you saying that we should have licensed mountain bikes when they became popular several years ago and there was a boom in people on mountain bikes doing stupid things? Same with road bikes in the Lance boom?


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## Kalukis

Pablo said:


> So are you saying that we should have licensed mountain bikes when they became popular several years ago and there was a boom in people on mountain bikes doing stupid things? Same with road bikes in the Lance boom?


If you look at my 3rd point (below the part you quoted), I said "no new laws" in my post; that should cover the statutory basis for new licensing requirements. What I did say was that most states already have laws which cover one of the main issues -- people "riding brakeless"; especially those with little experience.

I believe you are addressing "riding brainless"; that is a much more difficult issue to solve, any insights you have would be appreciated.

Regards,


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## thedips

Kalukis said:


> And let's face it; fixies are not attracting the most safety conscience among us, dude.


lol best line yet.


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## Bocephus Jones II

thedips said:


> lol best line yet.


but gd forbid you ride with an Ipod or people will crucify you.


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## onespeedbiker

Pablo said:


> Therer are several factors going into these accidents. It is far from clear to me that a fixe gear bike is the most significant factor in the casue of these accidents.
> 
> Due to the spike in popularity, there are a lot of kids riding fixies that lack general cycling experince or know-how. From what I read, it really sounds like this was a case of kids doing things that were either highly risky, such as speeding through an intersection and at night, or doing things beyond their ability level, like riding down a steep hill. Put these kids on a bike with a free wheel or equally weak braking system (such as a BMX or cyclocross bike) and you'd likely end up with similar and unfortunate results.
> 
> As for riding brackeless, it can be done safely. We've debated this a lot. I ride without brakes on fairly hilly terrain. However, I do not advise others to do so. If someone really want to ride without brakes, I think they need at least a solid year of riding fixed with a brake before going without.
> 
> The principle skills allowing for a fixie can be ridden safely without brakes is awareness and experience. You need to be aware of everything around you that may interfere with your path. This is reletively easy on a deserted road, but is much more complicated on a busy MUT or in city traffic. Also, the mental calculations change as you ride faster. You also need expience as a bike rider generally to be able to make good decisions about the human and car traffic patterns in front of you. If you work on these skills and develop them with brakes, it's my opinion that fixie riding is no more risky than normal bike riding.
> 
> Skidding really doesn't maye you stop all that fast. The skid stop (several in a row) is much more effective. However, again, the real way to stop quickly is to ride in a proper gear and place yourself in good situations through the use of anticipation and forethought.
> 
> Finally, I'm also opposed to laws regarding mandatory brakes on bicycles. Don't the police have enough to do without regulating cyclists. Moreover, there are other wheeled forms of transporation and recreation without brakes, such as skateboards and rollerblades, and no one clamors to regulate them. The last thing we need to do is criminalize cycling.


You make some really good points. Let me clarify a few things. You wrote:

_"Put these kids on a bike with a free wheel or equally weak braking system (such as a BMX or cyclocross bike) and you'd likely end up with similar and unfortunate results." _ First I would argure that most cyclecross bikes have as good a braking system as any bike. Second, Any bike with only one brake is vastly inferior to a bike with two brakes when it comes to a panic stop (read: oh $hit brake). 

You wrote: _"The principle skills allowing for a fixie can be ridden safely without brakes is awareness and experience." _ I defer to my above arguement. There will be that one unexpected incident when you have no time to react other than brake. 

You wrote: _I'm also opposed to laws regarding mandatory brakes on bicycles. Don't the police have enough to do without regulating cyclists. Moreover, there are other wheeled forms of transporation and recreation without brakes, such as skateboards and rollerblades, and no one clamors to regulate them. The last thing we need to do is criminalize cycling._ The reality is cycling is already "criminalized". And that is a good thing. The vehicle code in all states gives you the rights and responsibilities as motor vehicles. Skateboard and rollerblade riders have no rights given to them, other then the rights given to pedestrains. Unfortunaetly many bike riders have would rather ignore the fact that they have responsibilities when riding a bicycle on the highway. A "crime" is an "act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it". Some laws just make sense, your bike must have a brake. If it takes your average rider a year of riding a fixie to learn how to stop, maybe a legislative requirement does make sense. On the other hand you can't legislate intelligence.

Brad


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## burntbizzkit

I think it has a lot more to do with the average person riding a fixed gear then it does the bike itself. 

Similarly, cars with loud engines and blaring music are probably not less safe, but they sure drive more aggressively than the rest of the cars on the road!


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## Kalukis

Bocephus Jones II said:


> but gd forbid you ride with an Ipod or people will crucify you.


Nope, I just like ride up behind and snatch the earbuds right off ya. It's the two-wheeled version of counting coup and less bloody than saving the ears.


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## Christine

Oh, man. The way I see it: The person most likely to get hurt by my track bike is me. So why all the fuss. 

For fun, I stick to mostly greenways; my commute has some nutty intersections but also incorporates a long stretch of park path and park road.

Brooklyn has a large hipster population and many fixed. But the bike seems well-suited for the area. There's a lot of one-way, flat, relatively quiet streets where you can't pick up *too* much speed. I'd be surprised if non-riders would actually consider fixed as a starter/commuter bike, let alone without a brake. I can't even get my experienced rider friends to try it!


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## Pablo

Kalukis said:


> I believe you are addressing "riding brainless"; that is a much more difficult issue to solve, any insights you have would be appreciated.


I really doubt we can help the influx of young, "brainless" fixie riders much. You just can't stop people from doing stupid things. The only way that I see is for these kids to be influenced and incorporated into cycling culture, which takes take and a lot of them will probably move on to the next fad before we can teach them by example (and through forums).


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## Bocephus Jones II

Kalukis said:


> Nope, I just like ride up behind and snatch the earbuds right off ya. It's the two-wheeled version of counting coup and less bloody than saving the ears.


You gotta catch me first.


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## Pablo

onespeedbiker said:


> You make some really good points. Let me clarify a few things. You wrote:
> 
> _"Put these kids on a bike with a free wheel or equally weak braking system (such as a BMX or cyclocross bike) and you'd likely end up with similar and unfortunate results." _ First I would argure that most cyclecross bikes have as good a braking system as any bike. Second, Any bike with only one brake is vastly inferior to a bike with two brakes when it comes to a panic stop (read: oh $hit brake).
> 
> You wrote: _"The principle skills allowing for a fixie can be ridden safely without brakes is awareness and experience." _ I defer to my above arguement. There will be that one unexpected incident when you have no time to react other than brake.
> 
> You wrote: _I'm also opposed to laws regarding mandatory brakes on bicycles. Don't the police have enough to do without regulating cyclists. Moreover, there are other wheeled forms of transporation and recreation without brakes, such as skateboards and rollerblades, and no one clamors to regulate them. The last thing we need to do is criminalize cycling._ The reality is cycling is already "criminalized". And that is a good thing. The vehicle code in all states gives you the rights and responsibilities as motor vehicles. Skateboard and rollerblade riders have no rights given to them, other then the rights given to pedestrains. Unfortunaetly many bike riders have would rather ignore the fact that they have responsibilities when riding a bicycle on the highway. A "crime" is an "act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it". Some laws just make sense, your bike must have a brake. If it takes your average rider a year of riding a fixie to learn how to stop, maybe a legislative requirement does make sense. On the other hand you can't legislate intelligence.
> 
> Brad


This is just like briefing practice. Awesome. 

(1) From what I understand, 'cross canti brakes are generally not as strong a road brakes and certainly not as strong as discs. 

I'm not convinced that a fixie with two brakes stops you that much faster than a fixie with a front brake as most (I've heard 60 - 75%) of stopping power comes from the front brake and your legs stop you as well. 

(2) There are undoubtedly such times. However, for me, it's risk analysis. What are the odds that such an event will happen? Even if I'm riding "brainless," the odds are low. Further, there are almost always other options such as the right hand turn or merging left and around the problem. Braking is simply the most obvious option, especially in the construct of riding normal freewheel bikes. Moreover, I doubt that there is any real difference in risk, and certainly a minimal marginal difference in risk between a skilled rider on a fixie and a skilled roadie on a freewheel bike. 

(3) This is probably best for another thread. A crime is, yes, an act that breaks the law. However, not all laws are objectively correct, even if we ultimately submit to them as legal authority. Moreover, lets put this "crime" into perspective. It's a petty traffic offense, esentially on the same lines as driving 5 mph over the speed limit of making a California stop. While these are all "crimes," not all crimes are created equal. Further, as a matter of public policy, I stand by my beleive that the police and other public authorities have more pressing issues. 

Thanks for sparking a great debate.


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## onespeedbiker

Pablo said:


> This is just like briefing practice. Awesome.
> 
> (1) From what I understand, 'cross canti brakes are generally not as strong a road brakes and certainly not as strong as discs.
> 
> I'm not convinced that a fixie with two brakes stops you that much faster than a fixie with a front brake as most (I've heard 60 - 75%) of stopping power comes from the front brake and your legs stop you as well.
> 
> (2) There are undoubtedly such times. However, for me, it's risk analysis. What are the odds that such an event will happen? Even if I'm riding "brainless," the odds are low. Further, there are almost always other options such as the right hand turn or merging left and around the problem. Braking is simply the most obvious option, especially in the construct of riding normal freewheel bikes. Moreover, I doubt that there is any real difference in risk, and certainly a minimal marginal difference in risk between a skilled rider on a fixie and a skilled roadie on a freewheel bike.
> 
> (3) This is probably best for another thread. A crime is, yes, an act that breaks the law. However, not all laws are objectively correct, even if we ultimately submit to them as legal authority. Moreover, lets put this "crime" into perspective. It's a petty traffic offense, esentially on the same lines as driving 5 mph over the speed limit of making a California stop. While these are all "crimes," not all crimes are created equal. Further, as a matter of public policy, I stand by my beleive that the police and other public authorities have more pressing issues.
> 
> Thanks for sparking a great debate.


 Legend has it that Tullio Campagnolo explained that brakes are for slowing down a bike, not stopping it (BTW I think they need to do both). A good set of Canti's (Avids kind of missed the good part here) are pretty good at slowing you down, just short of skidding the tires as are most single pivot brakes. I almost qualified my statement on dual brakes that an experienced fixie rider with a front brake can still do the job. As far as "Why aren't you out there catching real criminals?" The #1 cause of death of young adults is traffic accidents. Done right, traffic enforcement has the highest result in actually saving lives as anything public safety does. OTOH I'll agree that brakes on fixies should not be a big priority. Heck, two of the accidents I talked about involved bikes with front brakes. I see that Washington DC allows a fixies to be brakeless if you can prove you can stop. Of course California law says the brake needs to skid the tire; I'd really like to see that!

Brad


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## Killroy

I would say that fixies are more dangerous then conventional bikes.


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## nate

onespeedbiker said:


> Legend has it that Tullio Campagnolo explained that brakes are for slowing down a bike, not stopping it (BTW I think they need to do both). A good set of Canti's (Avids kind of missed the good part here) are pretty good at slowing you down, just short of skidding the tires as are most single pivot brakes. I almost qualified my statement on dual brakes that an experienced fixie rider with a front brake can still do the job. As far as "Why aren't you out there catching real criminals?" The #1 cause of death of young adults is traffic accidents. Done right, traffic enforcement has the highest result in actually saving lives as anything public safety does. OTOH I'll agree that brakes on fixies should not be a big priority. Heck, two of the accidents I talked about involved bikes with front brakes. I see that Washington DC allows a fixies to be brakeless if you can prove you can stop. Of course California law says the brake needs to skid the tire; I'd really like to see that!
> 
> Brad


It's fairly easy to skid the rear tire. I've done it plenty of times during emergency stops (both geared and fixed) and some people can do it with no problem on purpose. All you have to do is put more weight over the front wheel, which occurs anyway during a normal stop but can be exaggerated to cause a skid on purpose. A lot of fixed gear riders can do it with no brakes and it is no indication of stopping power. Here is an example:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=en8ESzTmSAM

The front wheel is a different story.


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## Killroy

Skiding the rear tire only (brakless) may prove that you are lawfull, but it is still dangerous


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## thedips

Bocephus Jones II said:


> but gd forbid you ride with an Ipod or people will crucify you.



actually i was planning on taking it to another level.. while looking at garmin 305s/etc... i was thinking hell with a garmin how can i mount a full sized tomtom on my bike.. that way i can listen to music and see where im going with navi... now if i can get a mount for my starbucks ill feel right at home like im in an SUV on my weeekend rides...


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## nate

thedips said:


> actually i was planning on taking it to another level.. while looking at garmin 305s/etc... i was thinking hell with a garmin how can i mount a full sized tomtom on my bike.. that way i can listen to music and see where im going with navi... now if i can get a mount for my starbucks ill feel right at home like im in an SUV on my weeekend rides...


http://bicyclecoffeesystems.com/


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## burntbizzkit

thedips said:


> actually i was planning on taking it to another level.. while looking at garmin 305s/etc... i was thinking hell with a garmin how can i mount a full sized tomtom on my bike.. that way i can listen to music and see where im going with navi... now if i can get a mount for my starbucks ill feel right at home like im in an SUV on my weeekend rides...


I have a Garmin Legend HCx that I mount on my handlebars when doing long trips where I might get lost. It even has a bike navigation mode that avoids large highways and unpaved roads  ... no music though.


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## Kalukis

*OT but.....*



burntbizzkit said:


> I have a Garmin Legend HCx that I mount on my handlebars when doing long trips where I might get lost. It even has a bike navigation mode that avoids large highways and unpaved roads  ... no music though.


What?!?!?!?!?!? Just you, two wheels, one gear and a combo GPS/stereo/Cappuccino machine......how does all that cr*p fit into the whole fixie ethos?


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## superjohnny

Interesting topic. I believe the key to riding a fixie safely is the ability to gauge the risks around you and react before they become a problem. I think the vast majority of people riding around without brakes truly lack the skill to do so safely. Leave brakeless riding to the messengers and top 1% of riders. The rest of these folks need to buck up and slap on a brake.


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## onespeedbiker

nate said:


> It's fairly easy to skid the rear tire. I've done it plenty of times during emergency stops (both geared and fixed) and some people can do it with no problem on purpose. All you have to do is put more weight over the front wheel, which occurs anyway during a normal stop but can be exaggerated to cause a skid on purpose. A lot of fixed gear riders can do it with no brakes and it is no indication of stopping power. Here is an example:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=en8ESzTmSAM
> 
> The front wheel is a different story.


I think you walked in late. We all agree skidding a rear tire is easy. California law says the brake on a bicycle needs to make the wheel it is attached to skid. I have yet to see a fixie rider with a front brake do this.

Brad


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## fakeplastic

i was looking through toronto craiglist at bikes (as I usually do at 3 in the am) and found a fixie for sale. thought this sentence in the ad was pretty interesting. "Please note that this bike is extremely fast so I can only sell it to someone willing to run the front brake." don't think its a joke... but definitely a weird thing to include in a CL post. maybe this is his way of protecting potential fixie noobs. http://toronto.craigslist.ca/bik/478201805.html


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## danl1

I'm struggling with what I think is more responsible for a higher crash rate (if it's more than anecdotal) in fixies.

The 'Harley factor' is probably a big part. Folks exceeding their experience is a huge problem. 

Brakes matter. Folks who believe that the ability to skid the rear wheel is anywhere near equivalent to the effectiveness and safety of a brake are dangerously mistaken. 

Having feet connected solidly to the rear wheel is both an advantage and disadvantage to safety, depending on the experience and ability of the rider. If you allow yourself to lose control of the pedals (even if you remain attached to them), you are in significantly worse shape than merely coasting on a freewheel, because your attachment point becomes the saddle rather than the pedals. While it doesn't change your center of gravity, it changes the leverage dynamics of the handling and balance equation, making it much tougher to control the bike. If you maintain pedal control, it allows for a fine degree of speed and traction control that is superior to a freewheel bike.


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## Pablo

fakeplastic said:


> "Please note that this bike is extremely fast so I can only sell it to someone willing to run the front brake."[/url]


Wierd. My bikes just tend to sit there unless I'm pedalling really fast.


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## Kalukis

*Still OT...but wait!!!!*



Kalukis said:


> What?!?!?!?!?!? Just you, two wheels, one gear and a combo GPS/stereo/Cappuccino machine......how does all that cr*p fit into the whole fixie ethos?


************** UPDATE ********************
I was so-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o wrong! Now that I think about it, why fight it. So, even better, and newer and thus--potentially hipper--I give you (trumpet fanfare) THE FIXIE RECUMBENT!!! That will give you the Laz-boy factor to add to the electronics and the coffee machine.......maybe a little motor.....

oh,oh,oh now I've got it...a tandem fixie recumbent, let's get the little woman out with us for a little coffee and Regis & Cathy-Lee and fixie riding.....


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## jaywedge1

Kalukis said:


> .....how does all that cr*p fit into the whole fixie ethos?


hahahahahahahah.... fixie ethos..... hahahahahahhah

ever stop to wonder whether some people ride fixies b/c they're fun to ride rather than b/c they identify with an 'ethos'? and besides, how do you know his fixie ethos (if he bothers to have one) is the same as your fixie ethos (or even _the_ fixie ethos)? maybe he just doesn't want to get lost!


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## roadfix

Fixed gear riding under a responsible rider is not dangerous, it's just different.

Speaking of brakes, there's a brand new bike shop that caters mostly to fixed gear riders here in L.A. called LA Brakeless.


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## KeeponTrekkin

*My 2 cents*

1) A bike with two brakes is safer than a bike with one brake (F or R), which is, in turn, safer than a bike with no brakes (I don't care about skid stopping a fixed gear bike; it's not braking, it's hoping and praying.)

2) Cantilever brakes, properly adjusted, are equal in effectiveness to caliper brakes.

3) Disc brakes are no better than rim brakes except in sloppy conditions.

4) If you unclip from your fixed gear while riding down hill at high speed, you ask for trouble.

5) Fixed or geared, with two brakes, I don't think there's a safety difference. I do agree with many of the rider specific comments and speculations. On the learning curve with any new bike, you're not as safe as after you've ridden it enough for it to feel comfortable. That takes longer on your first fixie......


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## thinkcooper

Great discussion Brad!

Fixie riding seems to have become the hippest fashion statement here in Santa Cruz! Just last week, I saw a cute, college coed riding a retro-looking brakeless fixie on the Soquel Ave bridge, heading downtown just around rush hour. She had stylish rolled-up denim jeans, a beat-up messenger bag, no helmet, but a spiffy Campy cycling cap, and flip-flops. I saw her narrowly avoid a pedestrian crossing by Trader Joes then saw her fly through the Front Street intersection. I was fully expecting her to lose footing on one or both of the pedals... Thankfully there wasn't any cross traffic. 

No wonder we're number 1!


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## nate

onespeedbiker said:


> I think you walked in late. We all agree skidding a rear tire is easy. California law says the brake on a bicycle needs to make the wheel it is attached to skid. I have yet to see a fixie rider with a front brake do this.
> 
> Brad


My mistake. I think I'm misunderstanding you. From the above, it looks like you mean a fixed gear that only has a front brake, not one with front and rear?, The law says you only have to skid one tire, so if you have a rear brake you are all set. I wonder if the law defines a brake or someone could argue that the pedals count as a brake on a fixed gear? I'm pretty sure that has been discussed here before when talking about laws regarding bicycle brakes.


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## OneGear

yes. leave it to those who can do it well. the rest of us can't stop on the dime or spin down hills at breakneck speeds. that makes us fixie elite wannabes. plain and simple. i do it all the time but it is by no means safer or as safe as a braked bicycle, therefore yes, it is more dangerous. the reaction time to skid is many many times more than reactively touching a brake and slowing instantly. 

if you are averaging 15mph fine, brakeless is alright, but once u start averaging 20mph+ its no longer safe to be riding in traffic where there are lots of stops. thats just the plain fact. 

it isn't that hard to die guys, just a reminder.


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## onespeedbiker

nate said:


> My mistake. I think I'm misunderstanding you. From the above, it looks like you mean a fixed gear that only has a front brake, not one with front and rear?, The law says you only have to skid one tire, so if you have a rear brake you are all set. I wonder if the law defines a brake or someone could argue that the pedals count as a brake on a fixed gear? I'm pretty sure that has been discussed here before when talking about laws regarding bicycle brakes.


 Yes we've been jumping around a lot. It just started to seem to me that due to the steeper learning curve, that fixed gear bikes, especially those with a front or no brake are more dangerous that a freewheel bike with two brakes. 

Brad


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## roadfix

I think some of us as children learned how to ride bikes on fixed gears. I know I had one as a kid.


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## dkahern

*Ya gotta pay attention......*

is the thing with fixies. The bike is more dangerous in that it requires you to be have a deeper understanding of the physics of riding a bike than a SS or a "gearly man" bike. It requires you to "be here now" with it. Too much daydreaming will get you wacked. If you ride it enough, it becomes second nature: instinctive. I never try to "freewheel" anymore in those emergency situations, my legs grok that the pedals must turn on this bike. It may be dangerous for those dilettantes who ride now and then. A fixie does require more skill and more commitment. Maybe the fixie craze will fade less because of dissintrest and more because casual riders will get "Darwinized"......assuring us all a deeper, more robust gene pool. And cool or not....I ride front and rear brakes. Call me a looser if you must.


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## nate

onespeedbiker said:


> Yes we've been jumping around a lot. It just started to seem to me that due to the steeper learning curve, that fixed gear bikes, especially those with a front or no brake are more dangerous that a freewheel bike with two brakes.
> 
> Brad


I think they're probably more dangerous because some people just aren't suited to riding a fixie. On the other hand, I kept seeing people talk about the learning curve on this forum before I got my fixie. I was surprised that it did not seem nearly as hard as people made it out to be, but maybe all the reading I had done here had prepared me. I am the type of person that does a lot of research and likes to know the "how" and the "why" when I do things rather than diving in with no knowledge.


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## Dave Hickey

Great thread....

My .02....and I always use at least a front brake

I'll go out on a limb and say the fixed gear is safer under many conditions..If I'm riding in a crowded area like an MUT or busy urban area, give me a fixie any day.. I have much more control vs a geared bike..


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## dkahern

Dave Hickey said:


> Great thread....
> 
> My .02....and I always use at least a front brake
> 
> I'll go out on a limb and say the fixed gear is safer under many conditions..If I'm riding in a crowded area like an MUT or busy urban area, give me a fixie any day.. I have much more control vs a geared bike..




I think your dead right there. All those little minor speed adjustments are easier and quicker using pedal pressure rather than brakes and I've got my hands firmly wrapped on the hoods or the bars for control. And of course a track stand is much easier of a fix and that allows you to stop and go with traffic more efficiently. And even us old dorks get some cool points for a well executed track stand.


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## OneGear

Dave Hickey said:


> Great thread....
> 
> My .02....and I always use at least a front brake
> 
> I'll go out on a limb and say the fixed gear is safer under many conditions..If I'm riding in a crowded area like an MUT or busy urban area, give me a fixie any day.. I have much more control vs a geared bike..


hey dave

have to disagree, you are saying you'd take the fixie anyday but that is more from your confidence in your fixie riding skills, and it doesn't necessarily demonstrate that the fixie is safer for everyone. Im sure not everyone can ride a fixie as well as you.


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## tcruse11

OneGear said:


> have to disagree, you are saying you'd take the fixie anyday but that is more from your confidence in your fixie riding skills, and it doesn't necessarily demonstrate that the fixie is safer for everyone. Im sure not everyone can ride a fixie as well as you.


Not say that its the case for everyone, but speed control was the thing I loved about riding a fixie the first time I got on it. I doubt I would have even rode one again if I did not have this first experience. 

This is also the arguement most people make to new fixie riders: The first time you get on a fixed gear you can "feel the road" and have great speed control.


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## Pablo

OneGear said:


> have to disagree, you are saying you'd take the fixie anyday but that is more from your confidence in your fixie riding skills, and it doesn't necessarily demonstrate that the fixie is safer for everyone. Im sure not everyone can ride a fixie as well as you.


Well, that really get to the heart of it. Are we talking about social policy, i.e. are fixies generally more dangerous on average of all riders across all abilities, or is it a case by case basis?


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## OneGear

i always thought it was on the overall. at least that's how i'd judge it by the wording of the question. Case by case, sure it's easy to argue that it's safer... but the fact is the majority of fixie riders, in general, will not be certified 'safe' in any means or by bicycle with brake standards, which is the standard because if we are to be considered a vehicle, all vehicles certified for the road have brakes.

speed control is relative. if you are riding at normal geared training pace are you telling me you can stop safely and in reasonable time? the crux of the matter is that the standard for bringing your fixie to a stop from 20mph to a standstill is going to be many times (critical seconds) slower than a road bike. I'm not going to judge anything slower than 20mph, that argument just doesn't interest me... at 18 and down you are just cruising along and you'd be blocking traffic. speed control and road feel over safety is just illogical. 

lets face it, the top percentile of fixie riders can ride and stop equivalent to a braked bike.. the rest of us can probably stop relatively well with their legs but the factors that can come into play "fatigue, slower reaction time, weather conditions, road conditions etc" can influence the general rider into some very dangerous situations where they are unable to stop in time. and that is the crux, if you ride only in clear skies and trafficless roads, fixies are not more dangerous, but in general, urban riding with no brakes is relatively more dangerous because you just can't control the other factors that affect your stopping power.

anyways, i don't really care if people ride with no brakes, but if you aren't the top percent, don't do it, you put yourself and other people in danger or unnecessary risk. at least a front brake is required. and let darwinism sort out the rest. noobs should not even bother with going brakeless.. unless you're in a velodrome... and you have no idea how many noobs don't know how to stop on a fixie...


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## RavenStandsAlone

Kalukis said:


> What?!?!?!?!?!? Just you, two wheels, one gear and a combo GPS/stereo/Cappuccino machine......how does all that cr*p fit into the whole fixie ethos?


Oh sh!t. There's an ethos? And here I have been riding around etholess with a bunch of etholess a**holes!


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## dizzy101

As KeepOnTrekking pointed out earlier, a bike with two brakes is safer than a bike with one brake, and a bike with one brake is safer than a bike with no brakes. Regardless of being fixed or not.

A better question to ask it, 'Is it safe enough?' This depends upon the competence of the rider, as people have already pointed out.

Personally, I think riding with no brakes is only safe when you do it in the park at pedestrian speed. Going very slow, with no big vehicles nearby.

Skidding is not braking. It's funny that somebody linked to a skid competition to demonstrate how skidding can be used as braking. Because it shows that skidding is NOT braking. A SHORTEST SKID competition would be a better demonstration of how skidding equals braking.

And, in any case, skidding can only be used as 'planned braking', not 'emergency braking'.

Anybody who rides half-seriously (achieving reasonable speed, covering reasonable distances) will need emergency braking. Simple as that.


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## Kalukis

*In the Court*

http://bikeportland.org/2006/07/28/judge-finds-fault-with-fixies/

and even more humorously

http://media.www.vermontcynic.com/m...ter.Freak.Vintage.Bike.Accident-2820773.shtml


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## jasond41

Kalukis said:


> http://bikeportland.org/2006/07/28/judge-finds-fault-with-fixies/
> 
> and even more humorously
> 
> http://media.www.vermontcynic.com/m...ter.Freak.Vintage.Bike.Accident-2820773.shtml


All I have to say about the second article is look at his major Environmental Studies. What is that? As a student studying Civil Engineering with a focus in the environment it just hurts to hear. What does he learn...the poor quality of Al Gore presentation on global warming. I mean really wtf.


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## Kalukis

jasond41 said:


> All I have to say about the second article is look at his major Environmental Studies. What is that? As a student studying Civil Engineering with a focus in the environment it just hurts to hear. What does he learn...the poor quality of Al Gore presentation on global warming. I mean really wtf.


Dude, you've been punk'd.


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## onespeedbiker

jasond41 said:


> All I have to say about the second article is look at his major Environmental Studies. What is that? As a student studying Civil Engineering with a focus in the environment it just hurts to hear. What does he learn...the poor quality of Al Gore presentation on global warming. I mean really wtf.


 Punked or not. Check out the UC Santa Cruz, where you can study under ex-Black Panther, Angela Daivs and get a degree in the "History of Consciousness". I kid you not.

Brad


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## Kalukis

*Way-y-y-y OT*



onespeedbiker said:


> Punked or not. Check out the UC Santa Cruz, where you can study under ex-Black Panther, Angela Daivs and get a degree in the "History of Consciousness". I kid you not.
> 
> Brad


That's Dr. Angela *Davis*, young man.

Sounds like a great program -
_History of consciousness is an interdisciplinary graduate program centered in the humanities with links to the social sciences, natural sciences, and the arts. It is concerned with forms of human expression and social action as they are manifested in specific historical, cultural, and political contexts. The program stresses flexibility and originality. Interest is focused on problems rather than disciplines. Although students are prepared to teach in particular fields, the emphasis is on questions that span a number of different approaches._

It gives Starbucks an alternative to sociology majors! Maybe even get a job teaching/Indoctrinating your children.

Power to the People!
And Happy Thanksgiving!


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## Dave_Stohler

You will find a lot of personal anecdotal opinions on the practice, but in the end, physics proves that:

a) 2 brakes are always better and safer than 1
b) Rolling friction is always greater than sliding friction, therefore a properly braked wheel ALWAYS stops faster than a skidding wheel
c) A braked front wheel will always stop you faster than a braked rear wheel, due to the forward shift of weigh distribution during braking, and 
d) A skidding wheel is, by definition, an uncontrolled wheel.

Now, there will be members of the "hardcore no brake" set who will argue bitterly against me, but if you ever watch track racers, you will notice that they use their gloves on the front wheel to stop. That should tell you something right there about the advisability of rear braking on a fixie. Any bike on public roads should have at least 1 brake on the front wheel If it doesn't, it should be impounded.


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## Touch0Gray

Dave_Stohler said:


> d) A skidding wheel is, by definition, an uncontrolled wheel.



And that's a fact....try to steer a vehicle, any vehicle with the steering tire(s) locked up..... they NEED to be rolling.

AIN'T gonna happen.

I try not to ever lock up my wheels on any vehicle...car, truck, bike.....first of all, I buy my own tires, second, any time I have EVER hit anything, it slid into it.....control...no didn't hit them on purpose, I was obviously out of control.


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