# Crunches?



## Social Climber (Jan 16, 2013)

Should I do them or not?

I've been trying to improve my core strength over the past few months to deal with some lower back issues. Basically after about 2-3 hours of riding I'll start getting some pain in my lower back, on the right side at the base of the spine. The pain goes away if I get off the bike and walk or stretch a bit, but then eventually comes back, and then I get off and stretch again, and the process repeats. 

Over the winter I was seeing a trainer who had me doing all the typical exercises (planks, squats, lunges, crunches, back extensions, etc.) but stopped going now that the cycling season here. I do want to be able to continue doing some core exercises at home and I am getting conflicting information about crunches. For example, Tom Danielson's book says not to do them, while other books say you should do them (e.g. Complete Guide to Long Distance Cycling). 

Can anyone shed some light on this? I understand that my "core" is a lot more than just my abs, but really want to know whether I should omit crunches from my routine or maybe do more.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Social Climber, 

Have one word for you: _* PLANKING*_


In the various things you can do with it, it does the core like nothing else out there.


P.S. crunches are better than nothing, don't fall into that recent marketing hype that crunches are "bad" for you. And you would notice a big difference, imho, if you kept your winter type of training all through the year. Don't stop it, just tone it down during the summer/fall heavy riding months.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Crunches are useless.

They work the rectus abdominus, not the transverse abdominus. The rectus (and to a lesser extent the obliques) are prime movers, not stabilizers. You want to engage the stabilizers, which would be transverse abd, pelvic floor, lumbar multifidi (shown via EMG studies to be all neurologically linked.)

They also contribute to flexed rounding of the lumbar spine, putting pressure on discs and ligaments.

They are one exercise I never recommend to my low back patients. Ever.


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## rm -rf (Feb 27, 2006)

I got Tom Danielson's Core Advantage book. I still don't do them regularly enough, but I think they are very useful. There's a series of exercises from beginner to top level. There's some good, low impact stretches mixed in the workouts.

The first few chapters are theory of muscle relationships, and can be skimmed to get to the actual exercise lists. The book dislikes crunches, since they do the same muscles that already get workouts while riding.

They emphasize exercises that get the correct muscle groups working, instead of other muscles that are compensating for weak core muscles.

Searching it today, I found a series of videos from it. See the related videos on the youtube page.

at youtube:
Core Strength for Cyclists core advantage

For example:


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> Crunches are useless.
> 
> They work the rectus abdominus, not the transverse abdominus. The rectus (and to a lesser extent the obliques) are prime movers, not stabilizers. You want to engage the stabilizers, which would be transverse abd, pelvic floor, lumbar multifidi (shown via EMG studies to be all neurologically linked.)
> 
> ...


The bird-dog exercise that Allison shows in the vid is the basis of Jim Johnson's excellent book "The Multifidus Back Pain Solution". This book and this exercise totally changed my every day back pain.

As you know, the multifidus are probably the most basic spinal stability muscles and without these working properly, anything else is a waste of time. And they're an almost unknown muscle set. I mentioned them to my MD and she goes "Huh, what are those?". My PT knew exactly what they were.

This exercise along with planks and side planks, IMO, should be the basis of any core muscle program. And I wouldn't do a crunch, or "situp" if you paid me. My PT never even mentioned rectus abdominus strengthening exercises.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

A few winters ago I did a bunch of scissor kicks, planks, back hyperextensions and side planks and that routine seemed to really help a lot.

Crunches are good for show so if you want to look ripped on the beach you should do them but if you want to improve core strength in a way to benefit your cycling don't waste your time with them.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> The bird-dog exercise that Allison shows in the vid is the basis of Jim Johnson's excellent book "The Multifidus Back Pain Solution". This book and this exercise totally changed my every day back pain.
> 
> As you know, the multifidus are probably the most basic spinal stability muscles and without these working properly, anything else is a waste of time. And they're an almost unknown muscle set. I mentioned them to my MD and she goes "Huh, what are those?". My PT knew exactly what they were.
> 
> This exercise along with planks and side planks, IMO, should be the basis of any core muscle program. And I wouldn't do a crunch, or "situp" if you paid me. My PT never even mentioned rectus abdominus strengthening exercises.


My basic core program for low back patients goes like this:
Gentle stretches
Plank (on knees first if need be)
Side plank
Side plank to plank to opposite side plank progression
Kneeling alt arm/leg
2-4 second marches on swiss ball.
Walk out to Planks on swiss ball
Kneeling pike on swiss ball
Alt arm/leg on swiss ball
Pike on swiss ball
Spiderman planks.

Nothing that really challenges the rectus except the pike, slightly. Everything else requires multifidus and core stability.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

No hyperextensions, Swiss ball or otherwise ?


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## Social Climber (Jan 16, 2013)

OK so nix the crunches. Thanks. Next question: I can hold a plank for about 2 minutes and side planks for about 1:15. Is that strong enough that I should be looking at potential explanations for the back pain other than a weak core?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Social Climber said:


> OK so nix the crunches. Thanks. Next question: I can hold a plank for about 2 minutes and side planks for about 1:15. Is that strong enough that I should be looking at potential explanations for the back pain other than a weak core?


HOW are you holding them? Are you holding them with your core, or are you holding them with your back muscles (like a bowstring.) Most people "cheat" with their paraspinal muscles.



ibericb said:


> No hyperextensions, Swiss ball or otherwise ?


McKenzie.

No. I don't care for it, and I find it is surprisingly ineffective in correcting LBP. Maybe 15% of my patients benefit from them at all.

If you're one of the 15%, by all means, don't stop doing them.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Social Climber said:


> OK so nix the crunches. Thanks. Next question: I can hold a plank for about 2 minutes and side planks for about 1:15. Is that strong enough that I should be looking at potential explanations for the back pain other than a weak core?


My uneducated guess would be yes. Assuming you are doing them the right way with the right form you already have a strong core.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Jay Strongbow said:


> My uneducated guess would be yes. Assuming you are doing them the right way with the right form you already have a strong core.


Correct. There are a LOT of causes of low back pain, and a thorough workup would be beneficial to resolving it.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Since I quit crunches a few years ago to focus on planking, I feel dumb lucky if they are that bad for you (I had done them for decades, literally). Anyhow, with planking I also added these two exercises below to my routine. Are they ok, or am I just repeating crunching's problems while hanging in the air?


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Social Climber said:


> ...Over the winter I was seeing a trainer who had me doing all the typical exercises (planks, squats, lunges, crunches, back extensions, etc.) but stopped going now that the cycling season here.


ummmm why not just do those again


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## Mandeville (Oct 18, 2014)

It's important to strengthen the abdominals. There seems a million ways to that and they vary in how long and how easy or tortuous the exercise or exercises are. 

One exercise that takes five minutes and strengthens the all the abdominal muscles. 

A strange thing I noticed a couple of months ago is when I finish off a ride workout of 2-4 hours when I'm stripping off my riding clothing I've noticed that during the ride my abs have really temporarily tighten up more than normal to the point that they noticeable look like I'm sucking in stomach in. I'm not. They are doing that naturally for whatever reason. If nothing else that shows that they working hard during the ride IMO.


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## phil2161 (Dec 29, 2014)

You may want to consider 2 arm KB swings since they work the posterior chain as well as the core


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