# Being priced out of the high end market



## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

I just received an email from TREK announcing the Domane "Classic Edition". After following the link I eventually came to the Details page where I discovered the price was $11,519.99.

WOW. I know there are more expensive bikes but this TREK, Di2 equipped bike, would be way out of my price range. I feel like I've been priced out of the high end market.

Back in 1993 I bought my first high end bike, an Eddy Merckx MXL (Columbus Max), all Campagnolo Chorus equipped, Mavic Reflex rims, Cinelli handlebar/stem, Selle Italia Turbo Ti. The price was $2,000. Record would have been slighty more (several hundred if I recall)

If I run an inflation calculator (I used Inflation Calculator: Bureau of Labor Statistics) the cost of that bike would be $5,683 today. The TREK is twice that. 

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around these new high-end prices.


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

merckxman said:


> I just received an email from TREK announcing the Domane "Classic Edition". After following the link I eventually came to the Details page where I discovered the price was $11,519.99.
> 
> WOW. I know there are more expensive bikes but this TREK, Di2 equipped bike, would be way out of my price range. I feel like I've been priced out of the high end market.
> 
> ...


That's insanity...

I'm not saying that isn't a nice setup...but the price is absurd. A vast, VAST majority of people cannot afford a $10K+ bike...


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I really don't care about the super high end market prices because I don't desire carbon wheels, electronic shifting and am not a weight weenie.....but the increase of the mid-range prices kind of bums me out.
It cost more than a lot of people can afford to just get decent race worthy bike. That sucks.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Typetwelve said:


> That's insanity...
> 
> I'm not saying that isn't a nice setup...but the price is absurd. A vast, VAST majority of people cannot afford a $10K+ bike...


And nobody needs it. If somebody who can afford it wants it, it ain't my business. If Trek can find people who will pay that price, more power to them.

Merckxman, I suspect you're priced out of the high end market for cars, too (maybe you could afford a Ferrari or or a Rolls-royce or Mercedes S, but I can't). But does it matter? The 5k in today's dollars that your Merckx cost would buy a better bike today - lighter, more gears, smoother shifting. So why should the fact that there's a higher one matter? They didn't price you out of the same class of bikes you bought in 1993 -- they just moved the high end higher.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

This is why it pays to be a miser and to shop carefully, so that way you can have your cake and eat it, too. If you know what type of geometry fits you, you could always consider buying something online at this time of year when the retailers are liquidating like crazy. A year ago when I bought my bike I was looking at Cervelos, Scotts, BMCs, and Ridleys. For example, a handful of online stores had the Ridley Noah Di2 priced at $3699 (MSRP $5700), but unfortunately none of them had my frame size. I ended up getting a new-in-box Scott Foil 15 (MSRP $5000) for $2749 on eBay from a seller who owns a bike shop. You just have to be patient and strike when the opportunity presents itself.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

This is silly. Go to the Trek Project One site and configure that bike. Select a basic paint job, Ultegra Di2 and Shimano Ultegra WH-6700 tubeless rims and you have a more comparable bike to your 1993 Mercx and the cost will be $6,059. Right around where you expected.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Typetwelve said:


> but the price is absurd. A vast, VAST majority of people cannot afford a $10K+ bike...


So?

Is Trek under some kind of obligation to only make bikes everyone can afford? 

There are lots of people who could not have afforded the Merckx MAX in it's heyday. Maybe Eddy shouldn't have made them either.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2013)

Sounds like a better job first and then shopping.


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

Finally, Trek is going to acknowledge the long and storied history of the Domane. A bicycle that has been in production since? Well it has been a couple of years now.

They will probably sell every one that they make. Who wouldn't be proud to ride around with that "Classic Edition" sticker on their bike.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Can I get a 7xTour Winner sticker on mine?


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Can I get a 7xTour Winner sticker on mine?


I've got a sticker making machine. We can put any damn thing on there you want.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

I wasn't picking on TREK. The point I was making was about the economics of bikes. You say, "There are lots of people who could not have afforded the Merckx MAX in it's heyday." That's true. But, if the cost of new high end bikes is tracking at 2X CPI doesn't that mean less people can afford the new high end?



Cinelli 82220 said:


> So?
> 
> Is Trek under some kind of obligation to only make bikes everyone can afford?
> 
> There are lots of people who could not have afforded the Merckx MAX in it's heyday. Maybe Eddy shouldn't have made them either.


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## CampyTim (Sep 30, 2013)

The high cost of new bikes is why many on this forum opt to upgrade a bike instead. I just upgraded my '98 Merckx Ti from Campy 8-speed to Chorus 11-speed and a Mavic Ksyrium wheelset. 

My local bike shop did all of the work, and then I sold all of the old Campy components and wheelset on a popular internet site. 

Bottom line for the upgrade was a net cost of about $1,000, and my Merckx is now ready for another 15 years. It's also 3 pounds lighter!

Not sure if I'm ready for another 15 years, but that's not the bike's fault.

So, if you love that frame you're riding, just keep it!


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## CampyTim (Sep 30, 2013)

merckxman said:


> I wasn't picking on TREK. The point I was making was about the economics of bikes. You say, "There are lots of people who could not have afforded the Merckx MAX in it's heyday." That's true. But, if the cost of new high end bikes is tracking at 2X CPI doesn't that mean less people can afford the new high end?


There are plenty of really nice bikes in the $2k - $5k price range. 

My '98 Merckx cost me over $2k sixteen years ago, and I don't think I'd have any problem locating a new bike with comparable components and performance for well under $4k. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable cost increase to me.

It's true that the high-end is in the stratosphere, but hasn't that always been the case?

The Mercedes E-class is a very expensive car. So is the Bugatti Veyron. Since I'll never be able to afford either one, their high cost really isn't an issue for me, and I certainly don't worry about whether their price increases have been in-line with overall economic growth.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

For the recreational bicyclist, most riders ARE NOT priced out of anything. Any decent low end LBS road bicycle will do fine.

Go ahead, get down to the Trek store and demo a Trek 1.2 or an equivalent Giant, i did and the bike is more than most of us will ever need. 

Here is an old time racer that agrees with me: Bicycle Truth: Weight Scam - True cost of riding - YouTube

Also demo any Carbon bicycle that they have, i did and found the Trek 1.2 to be just as good. If you are a true athlete then maybe upscale will work for you, the 99.9% rest of us can get along fine on most any LBS entry level road bike. 

Take the test, demo and respond.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

CampyTim said:


> There are plenty of really nice bikes in the $2k - $5k price range.
> 
> It's true that the high-end is in the stratosphere, but hasn't that always been the case?
> 
> The Mercedes E-class is a very expensive car. So is the Bugatti Veyron. Since I'll never be able to afford either one, their high cost really isn't an issue for me, and I certainly don't worry about whether their price increases have been in-line with overall economic growth.


i got back into road biking a few years ago with a $15 Giant garage sale road bike. Just happened on a guy who had a real high end road bike in his garage, yep real nice and hanging from the rafters. 

Do you ride it i asked?

Nope, not in a long time, but i am keeping it.

Guess i was enjoying my old Giant more than that high end bike hanging in the rafters. :thumbsup:

Again this guy says it better than i can: Bicycle Truth: Weight Scam - True cost of riding - YouTube


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2013)

My son just bought a Caad 10 for $1250.00 brand new. The bike does not seem to be holding him back. He might be over tonight and ride with me tomorrow.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Oh great, this is about to turn into another "you don't need anything better than a $300 Motobecane" thread.


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

I don't get the reason for such petulance, there are rich people, and not rich people. You find your happiness within your budget, always wanting what you can't have probably means you are a millennial.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Oh great, this is about to turn into another "you don't need anything better than a $300 Motobecane" thread.


it's 650


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

Learn to assemble your own bike and shop wisely on the internet - its possible to save big bucks and get a nice ride. Starting in Jan of 2012 over a 6 month period, I was able to put together a complete all new DA 7900 bike pedals included and Ritchey WCS cockpit but less wheels for less than $3000 buying from established bike stores and no e-bay


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Alfonsina said:


> I don't get the reason for such petulance, there are rich people, and not rich people. You find your happiness within your budget, always wanting what you can't have probably means you are a millennial.


My advice has always been to figure out what budget you can reasonably afford and then buy the nicest bike that fits you and your purpose within that budget and you will never be unhappy. And that is what it is all about, IMO.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

hmmm, my ultimate dream bike back in '93 was a John Tomac Signature Raleigh, was about $US7000, they never sold them here in OZ so don't know what they would have been. My "more reasonable" dream bike, I got quoted a price in 92, $AU5000 frame only, GT Xizang, they sell the current one for around $AU3200. Seems things are cheaper in the mtb world.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

mik_git said:


> Seems things are cheaper in the mtb world.


Without painting all road bike riders (on a road bike forum) with the same brush...

There's a lot more chance of seeing your Lawyer, Dentist, Surgeon ect riding the roads on a Sunday morning with his mates than there is ripping up a rock garden in the rain.

Road cyclists out number MTB'ers here by probably 10:1 or more and as a whole i would say have bigger pool of cashed up weekend warriors than us who play in the dirt.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

sorry that should have read "getting cheaper".


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

merckxman said:


> I just received an email from TREK announcing the Domane "Classic Edition". After following the link I eventually came to the Details page where I discovered the price was $11,519.99.
> 
> I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around these new high-end prices.


Apples and Oranges
New Trek Domane Classics Edition Bike | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos
Your old bike was not the most expensive ride you could have bought at the time, nor was it a "special limited edition". This special offering from Trek is a "special limited edition", it's for someone that really wants one, and it comes with the "cost is not an issue" price tag. One can find an item priced at this level in any market.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Blackbeerthepirate said:


> Finally, Trek is going to acknowledge the long and storied history of the Domane. A bicycle that has been in production since? Well it has been a couple of years now.
> 
> They will probably sell every one that they make. Who wouldn't be proud to ride around with that "Classic Edition" sticker on their bike.


"Classic" may be refering to the the races that the bike was designed for, not the bike itself.


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

merckxman said:


> Back in 1993 I bought my first high end bike, an Eddy Merckx MXL (Columbus Max), all Campagnolo Chorus equipped, Mavic Reflex rims, Cinelli handlebar/stem, Selle Italia Turbo Ti. The price was $2,000. Record would have been slighty more (several hundred if I recall)
> 
> If I run an inflation calculator (I used Inflation Calculator: Bureau of Labor Statistics) the cost of that bike would be $5,683 today. The TREK is twice that.


This is hardly a high end bike, even in 1993. Campagnolo has had their Record group positioned at the top of the food chain since the 1960s.

A custom geometry Seven Axiom (steel frame) with Campy Chorus 11 starts at $4995. That'd be a pretty sweet bike for effectively less money than what you paid 20 years ago.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

merckxman said:


> I just received an email from TREK announcing the Domane "Classic Edition". After following the link I eventually came to the Details page where I discovered the price was $11,519.99. After following the link ...


The point is not the bike, the point is the existence of the price point in the product line. That's why they "announce" such things. You followed the link, it served its purpose. It serves its purpose if you say, "I could get a great bike for a lot less than that!" and then look at the other Treks available and consider them a good deal.

---- 

Obligatory bashing part of the post:

How many Range Rovers do you think see the dirt?

How many five figure road bikes do you think see five figure mileage under their owners? Not in a year, in the whole time they own it?

------

Someone wants one, more power to them. I judge riders not on their bikes, but on the smoothness of their spin.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Oh great, this is about to turn into another "you don't need anything better than a $300 Motobecane" thread.



People have to decide what they need I suppose. If you can afford a special bike then it's a good idea to get one. You only live once and a nice bike is still not that much at 10K really. Of course it needs to be within the budget.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

merckxman said:


> I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around these new high-end prices.


The problem isn't the prices, it's that you're living in poverty.

Do what you have to do to get yourself one of those jobs on Wall Street. Then, $12K looks like lunch money. Problem solved.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

brucew said:


> The problem isn't the prices, it's that you're living in poverty.


Maybe there's an extra $6000 attached to the Trek name.

Not so bling named Planet X will sell you a Di2 equipped bike for half the Trek price.



> The Super Record Nanolight weighs just 6.8kg (15lbs) and will be at £2799 ($4500). The DI2 weighs 7.2kg (15.9lbs) and will be £3799 ($6000).


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> "Classic" may be refering to the the races that the bike was designed for, not the bike itself.


Uh, yeah. That's why Trek calls it the "Classics" edition, not the "Classic". :wink:

Looks like it's a series 6 frame with a shorter head tube. H1 fit, likely.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

ozzybmx said:


> The Super Record Nanolight weighs just 6.8kg (15lbs) and will be at £2799 ($4500). The DI2 weighs 7.2kg (15.9lbs) and will be £3799 ($6000).


You left off the date of that statement... 15 November 2010. Right now the only DA Di2 bike on the Planet X site is a Guerciotti Eureka Evo selling for £6,999.99 ($11,195 US) marked down from £9,999.99 ($15,993 US).


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> "Classic" may be refering to the the races that the bike was designed for, not the bike itself.





mpre53 said:


> Uh, yeah. That's why Trek calls it the "Classics" edition, not the "Classic". :wink:



Well if that is true, it totally justifies the price. What was I thinking.


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## Red Brixton (Apr 4, 2012)

Alfonsina said:


> ... always wanting what you can't have probably means you are a *millennial*.


You misspelled *human*.


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## crbeals (Oct 3, 2012)

Does Trek make a good bike?


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

Red Brixton said:


> You misspelled *human*.


BAH! (be back later)


> You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I wrote one if the bike magizines and commented that if all they show is 5-12 thousand dollar bikes they will scare away a lot of new riders. 

It's insane what these bikes are going for these days. I'll stick with classic steel. 

Bill


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

merckxman said:


> If I run an inflation calculator (I used Inflation Calculator: Bureau of Labor Statistics) the cost of that bike would be $5,683 today. The TREK is twice that.
> 
> I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around these new high-end prices.


Because the Merckx was steel. the Trek is plastic. Way better.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> You left off the date of that statement... 15 November 2010.


Oh, apologies... i remember seeing one recently pretty cheap for what it was, didnt look at the date :blush2:


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

That much for a Trek? Crazy! If you have Ferrari money, why on earth buy a Ford.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

albert owen said:


> That much for a Trek? Crazy! If you have Ferrari money, why on earth buy a Ford.


Having the ability to buy anything you want, a Ferrari or a Ford are basically a vehicle to get you to point a and b. 

And who didn't want a ford gt40.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

crossracer said:


> I wrote one if the bike magizines and commented that if all they show is 5-12 thousand dollar bikes they will scare away a lot of new riders.
> 
> It's insane what these bikes are going for these days. I'll stick with classic steel.
> 
> Bill


Go....just Go to Trek and test ride one of their carbon bikes; i did and came back telling them that it was about like one of their Trek 1.2 bikes.

of course that rocked their boat, but really it made no difference to me. The bike i tested was $3000 and rode nice but so did the Trek 1.2

Since i am a recreational rider an entry level bike does just fine, i still ride a Fuji steel framed touring bike. Recently bought some racing tires from Nashbar to see if it makes much difference as the bike has 32 mm touring tires on it. Everyone who rides my bike loves it but an aluminum bike with carbon forks would do just fine too. 

The bicycle magazines don't seem to appeal to the public much, younger people actually are moving away from bicycles, especially the children. Probably the advertisers are pushing them to write up the expensive bikes that only sell to about 1% of riders, this probably does more harm to the sport than help. 

And from what i see filters down to the forum level like this one. Some of the companies trying to popularize the sport offering saner pricing like Nashbar, Bikes Direct and Performance are ridiculed by the 'elite' for whatever..........what's a beginner to do? 

What would really help the sport would be if Nashbar or Bikes Direct would market their bikes thru the Big Box store such as Walmart so that all could have a chance at a reasonably priced bicycle. It amazes me that the Big Boxes still don't have at least one Quality Bicycle on their shelves. 

Another good solution would be to have a good sticky above each forum giving some sensible advice about each kind of niche so that newcomers could disreguard the pricy recommendations ......as they say in the motorcycle world: 'shut up and ride'. :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2013)

r1lee said:


> Having the ability to buy anything you want, a Ferrari or a Ford are basically a vehicle to get you to point a and b.
> 
> And who didn't want a ford gt40.



I don't even know what a Ford gt40 is but the car I am going to buy is a Suburu Forrester. It will be real nice for camping, safe for the family and it will carry my bike and other things well.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

sport7 said:


> Go....just Go to Trek and test ride one of their carbon bikes; i did and came back telling them that it was about like one of their Trek 1.2 bikes.
> 
> of course that rocked their boat, but really it made no difference to me. The bike i tested was $3000 and rode nice but so did the Trek 1.2
> 
> ...



To start with, if the big box stores actually carried a good bike they would screw it up with poor assembly and support. But it is unlikely that they would stock a truly good bike because doing so would involve learning how to size riders correctly and stock multiple sizes. So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to occur. 

If you can't afford the top of the line bike then by all means you can find a decent bike that is more affordable - but you are only fooling yourself if you believe that it provides as good of a ride. 

The particular bike in question is not for the average rider (who is a MAMIL, I am told - I'm one, certainly). It is a very specific design for racers. The Domane frame works exceptionally well. It absorbs road shock better than almost any other bike out there - the only road bike that rates with it is the Volagi from what I have been able to ascertain. The standard Domane is perfect for the average baby boomer - it offers a slightly more upright position that is easy on our aging backs and necks as well as a quite stable ride similar to a touring bike. 

This new one has the more aggressive riding position that is favored by competitive riders - and has been the bike of choice for Fabian Cancallero and Andy Schleck. It is not the bike for every rider but if someone loves that riding position and wants to buy one I wouldn't sneer at him. 


QuiQueQuod wrote: I judge riders not on their bikes, but on the smoothness of their spin. 

That is the best comment I have seen on a bike forum in ages.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

bradkay said:


> MAMIL, I am told - I'm one, certainly


We're glad to hear you are going to take up cycling soon.... maybe lose the cape :thumbsup:


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## mapeiboy (Oct 31, 2007)

brucew said:


> The problem isn't the prices, it's that you're living in poverty.
> 
> Do what you have to do to get yourself one of those jobs on Wall Street. Then, $12K looks like lunch money. Problem solved.


My LBS carries nothing but high end bikes . The cheapest bike there starts at $5000 . Like you say $10,000 to a wall street banker is a drop in a bucket . Colnago C59 frame costs $5500 , add Campy super record 11 speed , carbon wheels , handlebar , pedals . You will come pretty close to $11,000 . This is my next bike . I have to start to save for it .


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Gee, thanks Ozzie... I just lost my breakfast! The joke was good but the visual I could have done without!!!!


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## Ted K (Nov 9, 2013)

Cycling is like anything else, the law of diminishing returns applies. What I mean is that to get the absolute top of the line, yes, you're going to spend $10k+, however, just below that are super bikes that are half the price and deliver 90% of the performance, and often greater longevity. Not to offend anyone, but straight from Shimano, Ultegra performs just as well as Dura Ace, but it is about 1lb heavier, and admittedly, may have longer life as Shimano admits to sacrificing part life in the name of weight. Same thing with frames, you can get the same geometry in several frames from a specific manufacturer, but in a slightly higher weight carbon and save tons.

I've purchased two bikes in the past 12 months. Both Cannondales. A 2013 SuperSix Evo with Ultegra Di2 for $5.5k. The higher modulas carbon frame, same geometry, with Dura Ace Di2 was almost twice the price and it ends up being only 1lb lighter. The complete bike, with pedals (speedplay light action cromoly), carbon cages and K-Edge garmin mount is 16.75lbs.

I also purchased a 2014 Cannondale CAAD 10 105 as a training and travel bike. Cost me under $2k. Awesome bike. In a side by side comparison I can tell the difference. The SuperSix feels lighter, is more compliant (softer ride) and the Di2 is AMAZING. However, is it worth the additional $3.5k? Probably not for most but I ride 5k miles a year and it's my thing so I went for it. At 48 years old I deserve it!


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2013)

Cycing is a pretty special sport. Those of us that ride the road are out to have a good time, experience cycling, the headwinds, weather and all that it brings. In general you want a good bike that provides the experience that you are looking for.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

As I get older and make more money I can afford better bikes. I can tell you that no new bike has ever made me a better rider being more expensive and a pound lighter. (Well maybe a light weight full suspension mountain bike has made riding off road more enjoyable). In fact my first $500 bike will be more special to me than anything I'll probably ever buy from now on. I wish I still had it, but my first "expensive" bike was made of carbon fiber and was pretty much disposable. YMMV.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

mapeiboy said:


> My LBS carries nothing but high end bikes . The cheapest bike there starts at $5000 . Like you say $10,000 to a wall street banker is a drop in a bucket . Colnago C59 frame costs $5500 , add Campy super record 11 speed , carbon wheels , handlebar , pedals . You will come pretty close to $11,000 . This is my next bike . I have to start to save for it .


No, you really don't have to save for it that much actually, compared to that Domane in the initial post. If you look closely, you can purchase a new C59 with seat post for $3600, new Super Record mechanical for $2000, nice bars/stem for, say $300 then a nice set of Mavic Ksyrium SLRs with exalith for about $1,300.

Total is less than $7,500 for a superb Italian-made bike with all European components, if that's your thing.

You want 9070 Di2? Add $700 to that price. $8200 for electronic. And that's all based on prices I just looked up right now.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

I could care less about going faster. I haven't even used a cyclometer in over a decade - so the H1 version of the Domane doesn't float my boat. I did, however, buy a Domane 4.5 this past spring and am very happy that I did so. The bike is extremely comfortable to ride and so has encouraged me to double my mileage this year. That's a winner in my book!


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## InfiniteLoop (Mar 20, 2010)

Mossberg was selling a $2000 graphite bike in 1975. I saw one guy riding one at a race in Atlanta (he didn't podium). At the time I think full retail on my 2 pounds heavier Raleigh Team Pro was about $900 and I think I paid about $500 through the team. If I remember right the podium in that race was John Howard, Jim Montgomery, and a Stetina, all on sub $1000 bikes.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

If I had $10k to spend on a bike, I'd be giving up 2x $5k bikes... Maybe some people are happy with just one bike??? I wouldn't be surprised if I have at least $25k in bikes at some point in my life, but never a single bike.


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## MikeWMass (Oct 15, 2011)

IMO, it is not just a question of what one can afford, but what it is reasonable to to spend. If you look at other hobbies like motorcycles, golf, boating, or fishing; cycling is not that expensive. I COULD spend that for a bike, but I am not about to. I am not a competitive rider, and not concerned about impressing anyone with what I have spent. I have tried more expensive bikes, and really did not notice enough difference to make me buy one. However, I have a friend with a Serotta Meivici with DuraAce Di2. He loves it. More power to him. Most of the people I know with Porsches don't drive any faster than I drive my Subaru!


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## Shegens (Sep 14, 2013)

I'm pretty much a tightwad when it comes to luxury items and bicycles fall in that class to me, no matter how much I love riding. I drive a 14 year old pickup truck and will drive it until it dies. I can't see me paying over $1000 for a bike. My first Trek was about $400 new and I rode it for almost 10 years. The bike I have now retails for about $700 locally and I have just as much fun on it as I'm guessing most here have on their high end bikes. I don't think I could enjoy riding as much as I do if I were on a high price bike that I was constantly fretting over simply because it was a high price bike. Could I afford a higher price bike? Sure. Am I willing to spend that much? No. Since I don't compete and I ride alone, I don't have, and have never had, the need to impress anybody with how much my bike cost. Nobody can ever get more enjoyment from riding than I do, even on my low price Trek.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

merckxman said:


> I just received an email from TREK announcing the Domane "Classic Edition". After following the link I eventually came to the Details page where I discovered the price was $11,519.99.
> 
> WOW. I know there are more expensive bikes but this TREK, Di2 equipped bike, would be way out of my price range. I feel like I've been priced out of the high end market.
> 
> ...


The prices do seem insane, but it is rationale on the part of the bicycle manufacturers and parts makers. They are going after wallet share and segmenting the market realizing that the number of people riding bikes is not likely to go up very much and some people are willing and able to spend more.

I went into a dedicated Trek dealer recently, one of the few in my area and asked him about the Madone series 7. In the store was nothing beyond a 5 series and was told the highest end models are specially ordered and he only sells a handful, which makes sense, given how many people are expected to order $10,000 bikes from a given store in any given month, and bike stores are in the moving business, not the storage business. They have to move product and not tie up capital.

With all new goodies, electronic shifting, hydrollic disc brakes, carbon wheels and eletronic monitoring devices and GPS it's easy to spend $20,000 on a bike, but I doubt many people do.

If you are looking for a fun road bike that is made for a serious rider, there are many good choices for under under $5,000 and you can get an excellent road bike for well under $10,000 if you can pick and chose your components carefully.

Also keep in mind aero carbon wheels can be a terrible solution for climbing or riding on a windy day, and the 3 ounces saved by Dura Ace or convenience of Electronic shifting doesn't necessarily translate into a better riding experience, but bike companies need to things to convince you now is the time to upgrade and that high end bike you purchased just 3 years ago, isn't going to cut it anymore.

In my view there's nothing that isn't cutting edge on the colnago c50 purchased close to ten years ago, if what you are after is a great ride in a modern frame.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Shegens said:


> I'm pretty much a tightwad when it comes to luxury items and bicycles fall in that class to me, no matter how much I love riding. I drive a 14 year old pickup truck and will drive it until it dies. I can't see me paying over $1000 for a bike. My first Trek was about $400 new and I rode it for almost 10 years. The bike I have now retails for about $700 locally and I have just as much fun on it as I'm guessing most here have on their high end bikes. I don't think I could enjoy riding as much as I do if I were on a high price bike that I was constantly fretting over simply because it was a high price bike. Could I afford a higher price bike? Sure. Am I willing to spend that much? No. Since I don't compete and I ride alone, I don't have, and have never had, the need to impress anybody with how much my bike cost. Nobody can ever get more enjoyment from riding than I do, even on my low price Trek.


That's a very good way to look at it. I have bought a couple of used bikes in the past 5 years and they've given me some of the best riding memories of my life. Nothing wrong with buying an expensive bike if you've got some disposable cash, but a less expensive bike can serve just as well.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

If we could all afford the best bike then there would be no happiness in passing the Di2 carbon dura-ace'r on our $2000 CX bike... Be happy everyone, i look at what i need, not what i can afford.


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## Shegens (Sep 14, 2013)

Bill2 said:


> That's a very good way to look at it. I have bought a couple of used bikes in the past 5 years and they've given me some of the best riding memories of my life. Nothing wrong with buying an expensive bike if you've got some disposable cash, but a less expensive bike can serve just as well.


I put my old Trek MTB in the local paper last week and offered it for $100. The lady that called said that she was looking for just that thing for her teenage son for Christmas, as long as it didn't look like a ladies bike.  These people are into cycling and are familiar with Trek and she didn't want to buy a higher priced Trek until she knew he would appreciate it. They looked the bike up online and found that it was worth 2X to 3X what I was asking and they were thrilled to get it. This bike was in mint condition. It looked as good as it did the day I got it and I had even added new grips and bar ends. It was always kept inside. I had considered donating it but I wanted it to go where it would be appreciated so I sold it at a low enough price that somebody like this kid could get it. His dad and older brother came to pick it up and the older boy rode it. He even told his dad that it was like new. 

I hope the kid gets as much enjoyment from it as you and I have from ours Bill. 

Here is the picture I took of it with my phone when I texted the picture to his mom.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

bradkay said:


> To start with, if the big box stores actually carried a good bike they would screw it up with poor assembly and support. But it is unlikely that they would stock a truly good bike because doing so would involve learning how to size riders correctly and stock multiple sizes. So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to occur.
> 
> If you can't afford the top of the line bike then by all means you can find a decent bike that is more affordable - but you are only fooling yourself if you believe that it provides as good of a ride.
> 
> ...


Well i agree with much of what you say. The Big Box may fault the job, but the same happens with internet mail order: you hafta DIY or go to the LBS. Right now you have no chance of getting quality at the Big Box and i feel this affects new riders getting into the sport.

But if at least one quality bike was offered, folks would have a small chance of enjoying what we already know. Nashbar and Bikes direct have this figured out; the bikes come mostly assembled anyway, and if you ride seriously we really should be able to do the other 10 percent of assembly ourselves. After all this IS a mechanical sport.

i am familiar with the Domane frame and test rode one at Trek, yep nice bike but i was not able to see the difference between the Domane and the Trek 1.2, go ahead and laugh. Maybe if i rode one side by side and had all day, then maybe.

Money IS an issue with most of us, if it is not, i support your suggestion for the Domane. This bike is very innovative for Trek and i think they will do well with it, probably a best use of carbon in my opinion. 

If money is an object, then get a lower end entry level bike; these bikes can be adapted for the comfort of the Domane simply by changing the tires and air pressure. Go from the 23/25 mm tires to a 28 mm or 32 mm road tire, this will absorb the shocks experienced on the street and save you 2 or 3 thousand in ca$h.

i ride with a 32 mm tire on my about 4 year old steel frame and would not know the difference in frame material with this fatter tire and yes the bike is fast with a 9 speed Tiagra drive train. The bike will be getting 25 mm tires because i don't concern myself with comfort as much, i like the durability of steel and hope to see a resurgence in that material after the aluminum bikes are all cracked up and the carbon bike$ damaged beyond repair. 

Again, i don't see anyone priced out of getting a good bike: the entry level road bikes are that good, and the ones at a higher level offer diminishing returns.


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## Ryder's (Oct 18, 2013)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> I don't even know what a Ford gt40 is but the car I am going to buy is a Suburu Forrester. It will be real nice for camping, safe for the family and it will carry my bike and other things well. I was going to ride the Mother Lode century, Calif next year and the Forrester will be great for the trip.


This reads just like an ad for a Subaru.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

The reality is that many of us are middle class individuals and therefore we will be "priced out" of most high end market items, be it bikes, cars, houses, furniture, electronics, vacations, etc.

The problem is that biking is our passion (many of us also race) so we have high expectation regarding our purchases. The good news is that nobody needs an $11,000 bike.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Cycling is fun because you're cycling. I enjoy it whether I'm outdoors or inside on rollers. I enjoy it more on the bike I own now than on the bikes I used to own. I like my road bike much more than my hybrid. I like lighter, more responsive bikes much more than heavier bikes. I love new tech on my bikes. But those are my likes & dislikes & yours can be different and that's ok. 

Using $$$ spent as a yardstick for measuring cycling enjoyment is wrong. It's wrong whether you think that expensive or cheap bikes produce more enjoyment. The enjoyment should & does come from riding the bike, not talking about the bike. Not showing off the bike. Not owning the bike. If you look at your bike and compare it with another and the first thing you do is estimate the difference in cost between the two, you've forgotten the reason you love cycling. The only bike that is too expensive is the bike that you can't afford or don't ride. I'd rather own the crappiest bike I have owned in the past than no bike at all.

And now it's time to ride my bike. I promised myself I'd try for a new PB on The Wretched today and it's time. This is gonna hurt.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Functionally, a less expensive bike does 99% of what a high-end bike does.

Where they differ is that the high-end bike just encourages me to ride more, for some reason. And in the end, that's worth it to me, especially since I don't have any other expensive hobbies.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2013)

Ryder's said:


> This reads just like an ad for a Subaru.




It does now that you mention it. LOL.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

sport7 said:


> If money is an object, then get a lower end entry level bike; these bikes can be adapted for the comfort of the Domane simply by changing the tires and air pressure. Go from the 23/25 mm tires to a 28 mm or 32 mm road tire, this will absorb the shocks experienced on the street and save you 2 or 3 thousand in ca$h.
> 
> i ride with a 32 mm tire on my about 4 year old steel frame and would not know the difference in frame material with this fatter tire and yes the bike is fast with a 9 speed Tiagra drive train. The bike will be getting 25 mm tires because i don't concern myself with comfort as much, i like the durability of steel and hope to see a resurgence in that material after the aluminum bikes are all cracked up and the carbon bike$ damaged beyond repair.
> 
> Again, i don't see anyone priced out of getting a good bike: the entry level road bikes are that good, and the ones at a higher level offer diminishing returns.


Now this is where I disagree with you. I have three bikes that I ride regularly: a 2009 Trek 520 (steel) touring bike for the winter, a 2003 Klein Q Carbon Race (mostly aluminium) and a 2013 Trek Domane 4.5. 

The 520 runs 32mm tires while I am using 25mm Vittoria Corsa CX tires on the other two. Now everybody has heard the old saw that aluminium beats you to death so if you want a soft ride get steel. Well, this is not always true - it depends entirely upon the actual tubing and how it is used. Every spring when I would switch from the steel Trek (prior to 2009 my winter bike was a 1980 Trek 720 touring bike) to the Klein I would find myself checking my rear tire to see if it was going flat - I was feeling a lot less road vibration on the Klein than on the steel bike(s). This is because of the type of aluminium tubing and the way it was manipulated in the construction of the Klein. So in this case I can definitely feel a better ride on the more expensive bike that has smaller tires, because of the frame design. 

On normal tarmac roads I don't feel much difference between the Klein and the Domane - they both do a great job at vibration absorption. Where I feel the difference is on bigger bumps - root heaves on the rail trails, rough wooden bridges and most of all cattle guards (the multiple steel bars running over a trench across the road placed there to keep cattle from leaving their range land). The Domane eats those obstacles up. 

I have never owned a top 0f the line bike - it just isn't in my budget. Even so, I haven't fooled myself into believing that an entry level bike gives as good of a ride. It doesn't... it can't because the more expensive frame material can be manipulated in a manner that will allow it to flex with the road vibrations in a way that the less expensive thicker walled tubing cannot. 

Thus I will stick to my long given advice: buy the nicest bike that you can afford that fits your purposes. You will not be unhappy. If all you can afford is an entry level bike, you will love it. But if you can afford a $2500 bike and are only willing to spend $700 you are fooling yourself if you think that the ride is as nice. It isn't.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

PaxRomana said:


> Functionally, a less expensive bike does 99% of what a high-end bike does.
> 
> Where they differ is that the high-end bike just encourages me to ride more, for some reason. And in the end, that's worth it to me, especially since I don't have any other expensive hobbies.


Yep, a really great bike encourages one to ride more! :thumbsup: But y'know, great bikes really shine the harder they're ridden. Wouldn't notice the difference at cruising speeds below 25 mph. But climb a mountain for all you're worth and rocket back down, man, that bike will do what you want, no resistance, no hanging back. It goes. And the bike delivers you to the end of the ride without beating you up.

Cars are like that too. A four wheel drive Mercedes E class car also starts to shine on a long trip. You can just loaf along at 80 mph like its nothing, and still have plenty of power to jet past slower moving vehicles at the flick of the foot. Even the fit on the seat is superior. Your tailbone won't hurt after riding 700 miles.

Great bikes are like great cars. They'll do everything right, no compromises. Most mid to high end bikes are built for performance. Some are too stiff, some are too flexy, but the best are just right. My trusty DeRosa purchased with full Campy Super Record in 1985 has never worn out. It's gotten me through numerous centuries without hurting. About mile 85, as I'm ready to give up, it starts to talk to me, like, "Come on, fool, pedal. You'll make it!" I always have.

I've never been able to "outride" this DeRosa. No matter how much I punish it, it responds gracefully, like an old friend. And I'll be darned if I'll spend above $5000 for a ride that may or may not be as faithful, or as strong, or as reliable, as this great bike. I keep thinking if I bought a state of the art carbon bike, I'd probably seldom ride it if it couldn't surpass the ride quality of the steel i've been in love with for half of my adult life.


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

nOOky said:


> As I get older and make more money I can afford better bikes. I can tell you that no new bike has ever made me a better rider being more expensive and a pound lighter. (Well maybe a light weight full suspension mountain bike has made riding off road more enjoyable). In fact my first $500 bike will be more special to me than anything I'll probably ever buy from now on. I wish I still had it, but my first "expensive" bike was made of carbon fiber and was pretty much disposable. YMMV.


 I agree.
my first nice bike in college was a Diamond Back Master TIG. 105 components. Had to save pennies to afford that. Rode that bike till the wheels fell off. Wonderful memories.
Now I have my front wheel costs more than that bike. Am I faster? no. Do I enjoy riding more. Probably not.
I had a few years of buying the best stuff out there. Now I just ride my 5-year-old bike and enjoy the ride.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

sport7 said:


> Here is an old time racer that agrees with me: Bicycle Truth: Weight Scam - True cost of riding - YouTube


Take that video with a grain of salt. While I agree with the premise that you don't need the best and most expensive equipment, this guy's methods for demonstrating that were a little shady. For example, he used the sale price of his Motobecane against the MSRP of the Kestrel Talon Tri, and both of which are available from Bikes Direct. That wasn't exactly an intellectually honest comparison. Let's also not forget the apples-to-oranges comparison of a bicycle to a motorcycle.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

SauronHimself said:


> Take that video with a grain of salt. While I agree with the premise that you don't need the best and most expensive equipment, this guy's methods for demonstrating that were a little shady. For example, he used the sale price of his Motobecane against the MSRP of the Kestrel Talon Tri, and both of which are available from Bikes Direct. That wasn't exactly an intellectually honest comparison. Let's also not forget the apples-to-oranges comparison of a bicycle to a motorcycle.


Sounds like an advertisement for Bikes Direct to me.


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## CalypsoArt (Dec 28, 2007)

Nailed it!


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## CalypsoArt (Dec 28, 2007)

My feeling, the difference between a $300 bike and a $1000 bike is marked and obvious to any rider. The difference between a $1000 bike and a $3000 is also usually apparent to most riders. Above that, it really comes down to really choosing a particular model suited to personal physical preferences, for the type of riding one does, and bling factor. Any number of less expensive bikes might be better suited than more expensive models, purely because of how one is built physically, how one rides, and where one rides. Buy the bike that makes you want to ride. 

So many people don't ride their heavy, crappy Walmart bikes, but don't know that it's because the bikes are heavy and crappy that they don't like riding. Same for $10,000 garage queens. Many people thought they bought "the best" but really don't like riding them because they are uncomfortable or something else. If having "the best" isn't good enough to make them ride, then they think it must be the riding that is the problem.

In April I told my riding partner with 8000+ miles on her GT hybrid that she really should try some other bikes. I took her to a store that had many models of multiple brands. They also had an entire floor of bikes from $6000 to $14,000. She rode several models, but then tried a Cannondale Synapse. She didn't come back for 30 minutes. (Unbelievably, I ran out of conversation in a bike store.) When she came back, she said "this bike feels like it part of me." We left with her buying a 2012 Synapse with Apex for $1300. It wasn't the price or that spoke to her over the other models, it was the bike did for her love of riding. She now has over 2500+ miles on the bike.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

CalypsoArt said:


> My feeling, the difference between a $300 bike and a $1000 bike is marked and obvious to any rider. The difference between a $1000 bike and a $3000 is also usually apparent to most riders. Above that, it really comes down to really choosing a particular model suited to personal physical preferences, for the type of riding one does, and bling factor. Any number of less expensive bikes might be better suited than more expensive models, purely because of how one is built physically, how one rides, and where one rides. Buy the bike that makes you want to ride.
> 
> So many people don't ride their heavy, crappy Walmart bikes, but don't know that it's because the bikes are heavy and crappy that why they're not riding. Same for $10,000 garage queens. Many people thought they bought "the best" but really don't like riding them because they are uncomfortable or something else. If the having "the best" isn't good enough to make them ride, then it must be the riding that is the problem.
> 
> In April I told my riding partner with 8000+ miles on her GT hybrid that she really should try some other bikes. I took her to a store that had many models of multiple brands. They also had an entire floor of bikes from $6000 to $14,000. She rode several models, but then tried a Cannondale Synapse. She didn't come back for 30 minutes. Unbelievably, I ran out of conversation in a bike store. When she came back, she said this bike feels like it part of me. We left with he buying a 2012 Synapse with Apex at for $1300. It wasn't the price or that spoke to her over the other models, it was the bike did for her love of riding. She now has over 2500+ miles on the bike.


That synapse, is probably the sweet spot in the market. Sure you can get a better bike, but at the high end of the market you are not buying value. That said when it came time to buy my latest bike, I threw value mostly out the window except when it came to equipment i didn't think I wanted, such as electronic shifting or disc brakes and I still wound up spending plenty( fortunately I tend to buy bikes once ever ten years on average, but unfortunately when I do i need to go up-market to justify the experience)


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

CalypsoArt said:


> My feeling, the difference between a $300 bike and a $1000 bike is marked and obvious to any rider. The difference between a $1000 bike and a $3000 is also usually apparent to most riders. Above that, it really comes down to really choosing a particular model suited to personal physical preferences, for the type of riding one does, and bling factor. Any number of less expensive bikes might be better suited than more expensive models, purely because of how one is built physically, how one rides, and where one rides. Buy the bike that makes you want to ride.
> 
> So many people don't ride their heavy, crappy Walmart bikes, but don't know that it's because the bikes are heavy and crappy that why they're not riding. Same for $10,000 garage queens. Many people thought they bought "the best" but really don't like riding them because they are uncomfortable or something else. If the having "the best" isn't good enough to make them ride, then it must be the riding that is the problem.
> 
> In April I told my riding partner with 8000+ miles on her GT hybrid that she really should try some other bikes. I took her to a store that had many models of multiple brands. They also had an entire floor of bikes from $6000 to $14,000. She rode several models, but then tried a Cannondale Synapse. She didn't come back for 30 minutes. Unbelievably, I ran out of conversation in a bike store. When she came back, she said this bike feels like it part of me. We left with he buying a 2012 Synapse with Apex at for $1300. It wasn't the price or that spoke to her over the other models, it was the bike did for her love of riding. She now has over 2500+ miles on the bike.


But why push someone with only 8,000 miles on a bike to purchase a new one. In my view that's a bike that might be under two years old? Seems premature. Were you doing her a favor here by ditching something so new?


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## wanderinwalker (May 10, 2012)

Trek_5200 said:


> But why push someone with only 8,000 miles on a bike to purchase a new one. In my view that's a bike that might be under two years old? Seems premature. Were you doing her a favor here by ditching something so new?


Because she went from a hybrid to a C-dale Synapse? That would be worth the switch after 8000 miles IMO. :thumbsup:



DaveWC said:


> Cycling is fun because you're cycling. I enjoy it whether I'm outdoors or inside on rollers. I enjoy it more on the bike I own now than on the bikes I used to own. I like my road bike much more than my hybrid. I like lighter, more responsive bikes much more than heavier bikes. I love new tech on my bikes. But those are my likes & dislikes & yours can be different and that's ok.
> 
> Using $$$ spent as a yardstick for measuring cycling enjoyment is wrong. It's wrong whether you think that expensive or cheap bikes produce more enjoyment. The enjoyment should & does come from riding the bike, not talking about the bike. Not showing off the bike. Not owning the bike. If you look at your bike and compare it with another and the first thing you do is estimate the difference in cost between the two, you've forgotten the reason you love cycling. The only bike that is too expensive is the bike that you can't afford or don't ride. I'd rather own the crappiest bike I have owned in the past than no bike at all.
> 
> And now it's time to ride my bike. I promised myself I'd try for a new PB on The Wretched today and it's time. This is gonna hurt.


This times way more than I can count! Right on target! It isn't about what frame material you ride, the name on the head tube, the name on the cranks and derailleurs, or how much your ride cost. It's all about getting out and riding because you LOVE TO RIDE YOUR BIKE! I know, it sounds a bit crazy, but more people should stop and think about it... ut:

And I will agree with the "buy the best you can afford" comment. As an example, I picked up a 2012 Giant Defy Composite with Apex last fall. Yes, it's a $2000 bike. At the time I thought, No, I really shouldn't spend $2k (good thing it was on sale!  ). But it fits me, it speaks to me and every chance I have I get out and ride it. After 3500+ miles I'm still happy and when asked "what's your dream bike?" I don't have an answer because riding that Defy Comp makes me happy and that's the point.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

wanderinwalker said:


> Because she went from a hybrid to a C-dale Synapse? That would be worth the switch after 8000 miles IMO. :thumbsup:
> 
> And I will agree with the "buy the best you can afford" comment. As an example, I picked up a 2012 Giant Defy Composite with Apex last fall. Yes, it's a $2000 bike. At the time I thought, No, I really shouldn't spend $2k (good thing it was on sale!  ). But it fits me, it speaks to me and every chance I have I get out and ride it. After 3500+ miles I'm still happy and when asked "what's your dream bike?" I don't have an answer because riding that Defy Comp makes me happy and that's the point.


i don't agree with 'buy the best you can afford'. My bike is not the best i can afford but adequate to do the job as a recreational rider. This advise is not for the rich but for average folks. Basically any bicycle much over $1000 is unecessary; your better off putting that money into tools, riding destinations, second bikes or anything else but a high end bicycle. 

Less than 1% of bicycles sold are over $1000 and most likely those are sold to athletes, the rich and pseudo rich. The rich would benefit highly from spending money on bicycles and other sports equipment as what a lot of their coin is spent on is worthless status symbols. Very few of us are real athletes, and those kind know what they need. 

What we really need is what a motorcyclist once said "shut up and ride". :thumbsup:

Watch this athlete tell you that a $650 bicycle is the most you need to spend: Bicycle Truth: Weight Scam - True cost of riding - YouTube


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

sport7 said:


> i don't agree with 'buy the best you can afford'. My bike is not the best i can afford but adequate to do the job as a recreational rider. This advise is not for the rich but for average folks. Basically any bicycle much over $1000 is unecessary; your better off putting that money into tools, riding destinations, second bikes or anything else but a high end bicycle.
> 
> Less than 1% of bicycles sold are over $1000 and most likely those are sold to athletes, the rich and pseudo rich. The rich would benefit highly from spending money on bicycles and other sports equipment as what a lot of their coin is spent on is worthless status symbols. Very few of us are real athletes, and those kind know what they need.
> 
> ...


I'm in the best you can afford but consistent with the kind of bike you want. I believe you do that, and you are more apt to keep that bike running longer.

And if you under-spend and then wind up throwing money at upgrades thining woulda coulda shoulda you might wind up spending more in the long run.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> I'm in the best you can afford but consistent with the kind of bike you want. I believe you do that, and you are more apt to keep that bike running longer.
> 
> And if you under-spend and then wind up throwing money at upgrades thining woulda coulda shoulda you might wind up spending more in the long run.


i understand what your saying and somewhat agree. My opinion is based on my other interest in bicycling which is the mechanical. Working on my bicycle is part of the fun and a few upgrades every year adds to that. Yep i do end up with extra parts, but those are basic parts and are used on other bicycles that are either mine or those of friends. 

The best education i received was in buying an old Schwinn Duo Sport tandem bicycle that was abused, i was able to bring it back to like and rode the bicycle with a handy capped friend. He would not have other wise been able to ride. Now i could have spent a lot more money on a tandem bicycle but he encouraged me not to. 

Now i can handle most any kind of complexity on a bicycle and enjoy the upgrade process to see what really works. The same goes for those who build their own computer or cars from parts, the joy is in the journey. Used to tell people that i learn nothing buying a new computer except how to open the box; basically why we build our own stuff. :thumbsup: And make that a double :thumbsup:


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

"Basically any bicycle much over $1000 is unecessary; your better off putting that money into tools, riding destinations, second bikes or anything else but a high end bicycle. " First of all a bike over $1000 is no longer a high end bike. It takes $2500-3000 to reach that level. Thus I find it easy to discount your suggestion because you don't really understand modern bikes at all. The best riding frames are not going to be found on sub $1000 bikes. There is a world of difference in the ride between a $650 bike and a $2000 bike. If you are happy with your bike, good. But to tell others that they don't need to spend more than that is just plain bad advice.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

bradkay said:


> "Basically any bicycle much over $1000 is unecessary; your better off putting that money into tools, riding destinations, second bikes or anything else but a high end bicycle. " First of all a bike over $1000 is no longer a high end bike. It takes $2500-3000 to reach that level. Thus I find it easy to discount your suggestion because you don't really understand modern bikes at all. The best riding frames are not going to be found on sub $1000 bikes. There is a world of difference in the ride between a $650 bike and a $2000 bike. If you are happy with your bike, good. But to tell others that they don't need to spend more than that is just plain bad advice.


Well congrats, you are part of the 1% who enjoy expensive bikes. 99% of bikes sold are under $1000, so apparently they have been badly advised also. 

Have you watched this great video on the subject? Bicycle Truth: Weight Scam - True cost of riding - YouTube The man IS an athlete and does not advise expensive bicycles either!

The good advice is starting to stack up, and note his video has 250,000 viewers and counting. 

Personally, i have ridden a Trek Domane valued at over $3000 and do not recommend the bicycle. Instead i suggest the Trek 1.2 and generally had for under a thousand dollars. Again, take a test ride and see for yourself.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

sport7 said:


> Well congrats, you are part of the 1% who enjoy expensive bikes. 99% of bikes sold are under $1000, so apparently they have been badly advised also.
> 
> Have you watched this great video on the subject? Bicycle Truth: Weight Scam - True cost of riding - YouTube The man IS an athlete and does not advise expensive bicycles either!
> 
> ...


You linked the same video in post #15. Are you sure that "old time racer who agrees with you" isn't your alternate personality in the same body?


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

SauronHimself said:


> You linked the same video in post #15. Are you sure that "old time racer who agrees with you" isn't your alternate personality in the same body?


And btw that video is ridiculous.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

sport7 said:


> Well congrats, you are part of the 1% who enjoy expensive bikes. 99% of bikes sold are under $1000, so apparently they have been badly advised also.
> 
> Have you watched this great video on the subject? Bicycle Truth: Weight Scam - True cost of riding - YouTube The man IS an athlete and does not advise expensive bicycles either!
> 
> ...


I have not and will not watch that video. Any damned fool can make a video and post it on the internet. If he believes that in today's market a $650 bike can give the same ride as a $3000 bike his video is not worth watching. There is no way that the frame material on a bike that is so inexpensive can dampen the road vibrations the way that the more expensive material does. 

Yes, the vast majority of bikes sold are under $1000. What, 70-80% of those are department store pieces of junk. In bike shops the vast majority of bikes sold are entry level bikes that range from $400-800. They are fine for what they are. 

However, we are discussing bikes on a forum aimed at cycling enthusiasts. The vast majority of the riders on this forum are very aware of the differences in the ride between the Trek 1.2 and, say, the Domane 4.7. I have ridden both - the 1.2 is a fine bike for what it is but the ride doesn't even approach the level of my Domane 4.5 (I bought one this past spring). Nor does it approach the level of my 2003 Klein Quantum Race (an aluminum bike). That is because the frame material was not designed to absorb the road vibrations the way that those other bikes do. 

I am not the only one who has that opinion. In the early 2000s I was working the floor of a Trek/Giant/Klein dealer. At the time Trek was selling the 2100 and 2300 that were made with Klein ZR9000 aluminum tubing. I had several customers come into my store and tell me that they were seriously leaning towards a bike at a different shop that was equipped with Ultegra components and selling for $1000. IIRC, the 2100 was selling for $1300 and the 2300 was selling for $1700 at the time. 

All I had to do was send them on a test ride on either one of those two Treks and I made the sale. Why? Because in order to sell an Ultegra equipped bike at a $1000 at the time the company could not have invested more that $100 in the frame. The frame is the heart of the bike and controls the quality of the ride. Every one of those customers purchased the more expensive bike from me because the ride was superior. 

I will agree to some extent that the weight game is a losing proposition. I describe it as this: as you lose weight on a bike the price grows exponentially. I am perfectly happy with an 18 pound road bike while more competitive riders are looking for something lighter. If that is what they want, more power to them (and, yes, I am sure that they are putting more power to the pedals than I - not because their bikes are lighter but because I don't care to race or train that hard anymore). 

But I am not fool enough to buy the argument that a $650 road bike gives as nice of a ride as a $3000 one. My experience and knowledge says that it is just not true. No silly video (by a man who IS an athlete no less!!) is going to convince me otherwise.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Oh, and YES, the 70-80% of the customers out there who purchased a bike in a big box store were poorly advised. The ones who purchased an under $1000 bike at an independent bike dealer were not - because they purchased a bike that completely serves the purpose for which they wanted. Most of these are people who want to ride 5-20 miles on a multi-user trail at a pace around 10-15mph. Many more are looking for a bike they can strap onto their RVs and take to the campground with them. Others are looking for a bike they can commute 4-10 miles to work on. 

None of these riders are in need of a high end road bike and an IBD is not going to advise them to buy one. The people on this forum are a different crowd entirely...


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2013)

The video is to slow to watch. If he spoke a bit faster and shortened the presentation it would be better.


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## wanderinwalker (May 10, 2012)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> The video is to slow to watch. If he spoke a bit faster and shortened the presentation it would be better. But I get his point that you can buy a bike to ride on the cheap.
> 
> However I still think that if cycling is your interest and you can afford a real nice bike then I think you should get one.


I haven't bothered watch the video, but I will give a thumps up to paragraph #2! :thumbsup:



sport7 said:


> i don't agree with 'buy the best you can afford'. My bike is not the best i can afford but adequate to do the job as a recreational rider. This advise is not for the rich but for average folks. Basically any bicycle much over $1000 is unecessary; your better off putting that money into tools, riding destinations, second bikes or anything else but a high end bicycle.
> 
> Less than 1% of bicycles sold are over $1000 and most likely those are sold to athletes, the rich and pseudo rich. The rich would benefit highly from spending money on bicycles and other sports equipment as what a lot of their coin is spent on is worthless status symbols. Very few of us are real athletes, and those kind know what they need.
> 
> ...


First off, I ride a bike, recreationally, yes, but most relatively dedicated cyclists (even my group ride cohorts) would be offended at the suggestion that we're "not athletes." Excuse me, but yes, yes we are athletes.

Second, $1000 is NOT a high end bike. Not even close. And I'm sorry to say, there is most definitely a ride difference between my old Trek 2.1 and my new Giant, even though the Trek was a "high-end" bike over $1000 in the first place too. Oh, I'm not rich either, just a guy who enjoys riding bikes. And I have two bikes with plans to add a third in the spring. If it's what you enjoy and want, you will find a way. :blush2:

And I enjoy tinkering and wrenching on bikes too. I've stripped down a vintage 12-speed to a bare frame and rebuilt it before. I used to have to replace parts on a regular basis on my old rigid, 26" wheel mountain bike because I was riding it harder than the components were designed to handle. 

Lastly, absolutely, we should all just get out and ride! I'll wave when I see you out there. :cornut:


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Seems like the industry is getting more specialized and refined. Technology is getting fairly exotic compared to 30 or even 20 years ago. For example, I went in for a bike fit a while ago and they had some saddles by the carbonsmiths hanging on the wall. $450 per saddle.


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

sport7 said:


> Well congrats, you are part of the 1% who enjoy expensive bikes. 99% of bikes sold are under $1000, so apparently they have been badly advised also.


Really???????? I see a lot of over $1000 bikes out there on the road. The only thing a $1000 and a high end bike ($5-6,000) have in common is the hey are both bicycles. Will the low end bike do everything the high end bike will? Yes, it just wont do it as well. 

I also don't buy pre-built bikes. I buy frames. I raced for over 10 years. There is a certain of responsiveness/feel I expect from my bike that you do not get with a low end frame. Can you go just as fast? Again yes. If you don't want or think that high end bikes are a waste of money, they don't get one. Everybody is different.


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## Ted K (Nov 9, 2013)

I don't agree at all. Without even getting into weight, compliance, comfort, power transfer, stiffness, I ride a bike with Ultegra Di2. There is no way you can compare the easy, speed and reliability and technical advantage of this shifting with mechanical groupos. I can change gears going up or down a steep long hill through almost the entire cassette, saving energy and improving my ride. On my training bike with Shimano 105, I couldn't do half the gear swapping. Is expensive rides for everyone? Obviously no. But we all work hard and make decisions on what to spend on. Some folks, big house. Others fancy cars. Some, expensive bikes. It's all up to the individual person, but you shouldn't try to explain or put your values and judgments on others. Just say your opinion about you, why you do what you do and leave it at that.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

It's a hobby to most here so hell yes buy what ever you want. But, the whole point of the op is that while he could afford top shelf in the 90's he no longer can today. The question is why? Not a question of do I deserve/who is worthy...


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

SauronHimself said:


> You linked the same video in post #15. Are you sure that "old time racer who agrees with you" isn't your alternate personality in the same body?


Actually he posted it on post #15, 16, 79 & 83. If the "good advice is stacking up", he's the one stacking it. Watching that video is like considering buying a performance car and going to a site that explains that an AMC Gremlin is all the car you need. In keeping with his stat that 99% of bikes sold are sold for less than $1,000 I'd be willing to bet that 99% of bikes sold by BikesDirect see less than 1,000 miles in their lifetime. I put on average 12,000 kms (~7,500 miles) a year on my bike and doubt that a $600 bike will hold up for long with that mileage. If it did I doubt I'd enjoy it beyond year 1.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

woodys737 said:


> It's a hobby to most here so hell yes buy what ever you want. But, the whole point of the op is that while he could afford top shelf in the 90's he no longer can today. The question is why? Not a question of do I deserve/who is worthy...


That's only a valid statement if you ignore the concept that A) the OP's original bike was less than top shelf and B) the fact that even the bike the OP commented on at $11k can be had for about half that price if you simply get Di2 and comparable wheels. So the whole point of the OP is flawed. In 1993 when he bought his bike for $2,000 I guarantee you there were bikes selling for $4,000.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

DaveWC said:


> That's only a valid statement if you ignore the concept that A) the OP's original bike was less than top shelf and B) the fact that even the bike the OP commented on at $11k can be had for about half that price if you simply get Di2 and comparable wheels. So the whole point of the OP is flawed. In 1993 when he bought his bike for $2,000 I guarantee you there were bikes selling for $4,000.


Excellent points Dave. I was trying to get the tread back on topic more than this whole is it worth it creep. What was the 1993 cost of the top shelf bling bike? Just to keep it apples to apples $7000 in adjusted 1993 dollars is about $11,300 today. I was into mountain biking back then but were $7K bikes as widely around back then as $11K bikes are today? I think so but I really don't know.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2013)

.....


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Actually he posted it on post #15, 16, 79 & 83. If the "good advice is stacking up", he's the one stacking it. Watching that video is like considering buying a performance car and going to a site that explains that an AMC Gremlin is all the car you need. In keeping with his stat that 99% of bikes sold are sold for less than $1,000 I'd be willing to bet that 99% of bikes sold by BikesDirect see less than 1,000 miles in their lifetime. I put on average 12,000 kms (~7,500 miles) a year on my bike and doubt that a $600 bike will hold up for long with that mileage. If it did I doubt I'd enjoy it beyond year 1.


I know what you're shooting at in your post, but please don't dump on BikesDirect for the behavior of their riders. I have one of their 29ers, @2 years old at this point, figure somewhere around 4k miles. I would lay odds that any of their bikes that have components above Claris level will handle as many miles as their owners care to ride. I'm only a backyard bike mech, but I'd bet someone like Platy would agree that any level of components (above the A070/Claris level), with proper maint. would allow constant riding for many years. Would it be fast? Most likely not. Could it handle abuse (like riding through potholes)? No, but for getting out on the road, enjoying the air, and having a good time, more than adequate. The problem isn't the hardware, it's the user, getting the size they need and then adjusting to their individual needs, then maintaining the bikes so they can keep riding. Those problems are the same no matter if it's a $50 used bike or $15K halo carbon superbike.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

junior1210 said:


> Those problems are the same no matter if it's a $50 used bike or $15K halo carbon superbike.


You said Halo?


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Yeah, now you know he had to have a pro fitting for that bike. I just gotta wonder if he's using an Alfine 11 or did he splurge for the Rohloff? Probably went high end considering his kit.:lol:


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

sport7: *Personally, I have ridden a Trek Domane valued at over $3000 and do not recommend the bicycle. Instead I suggest the Trek 1.2*

Now that I understand where you are coming from, I would also suggest a Trek 1.2 for you too. But if I suggested it to a dedicated racer who trains 12-16 hours a day, I would sound a bit stupid, wouldn't I?


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

serious said:


> sport7: * But if I suggested it to a dedicated racer who trains 12-16 hours a day, I would sound a bit stupid, wouldn't I?*


*

Please tell me you meant "per week".*


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Getting proper sleep could be considered part of training right? Jus' sayin'........


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

SauronHimself said:


> Please tell me you meant "per week".


Of course! But see how easily I can sound stupid?


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

Ted K said:


> I don't agree at all. Without even getting into weight, compliance, comfort, power transfer, stiffness, I ride a bike with Ultegra Di2. There is no way you can compare the easy, speed and reliability and technical advantage of this shifting with mechanical groupos. I can change gears going up or down a steep long hill through almost the entire cassette, saving energy and improving my ride. On my training bike with Shimano 105, I couldn't do half the gear swapping


Yes you can. Don't know if people just buy into the Shimano marketing BS or what but I hate to break it to you but I can do the exact same thing and I'm on DA 7800. I can go up and down my cassette on a long climb with out any problems. Di2 may do it slightly better but if DA 9000 or Red does 99% of Di2 for $1000 dollars less; gee which one am I going to buy? That 1% isn't worth a extra grand. 

Electronic shifting may have it's place but it is not quite the advancement index shifting was to friction shifting. Looking to build up a frame next year and it will be a mechanical group. Probably DA 9000, maybe Red and I can live with not being as "cool" as someone with Di2. Since I can still hang with the fast guys, I don't see where Di2 is going to make me a better rider. Only riding more is going to do that.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

SauronHimself said:


> You linked the same video in post #15. Are you sure that "old time racer who agrees with you" isn't your alternate personality in the same body?


Shilling his silly vid to get more views and subsequent ad $$ revenue.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2013)

Ted K said:


> I don't agree at all. Without even getting into weight, compliance, comfort, power transfer, stiffness, I ride a bike with Ultegra Di2. There is no way you can compare the easy, speed and reliability and technical advantage of this shifting with mechanical groupos. I can change gears going up or down a steep long hill through almost the entire cassette, saving energy and improving my ride. On my training bike with Shimano 105, I couldn't do half the gear swapping. Is expensive rides for everyone? Obviously no. But we all work hard and make decisions on what to spend on. Some folks, big house. Others fancy cars. Some, expensive bikes. It's all up to the individual person, but you shouldn't try to explain or put your values and judgments on others. Just say your opinion about you, why you do what you do and leave it at that.



Do you have to stop at charging stations when touring?


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> Do you have to stop at charging stations when touring?


Not unless the tour is over 1500 miles.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2013)

SauronHimself said:


> Not unless the tour is over 1500 miles.



Thanks I knew that. It was supposed to be humor.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

I don't know how anyone can say that a Merckx MX Leader was not a top shelf frame. Sure, it wasn't the most expensive frame of it's time (and neither is the Trek Classics) but it was a frame ridden by several professional teams (Motorola and Telekom among others). 

Looking at a 1995 Road Bike Action, an Merckx Mx Leader with Shimano Dura-Ace was $3000. A carbon fiber Trek 2200 with Campagnolo Veloce was $1199.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

merckxman said:


> I don't know how anyone can say that a Merckx MX Leader was not a top shelf frame. Sure, it wasn't the most expensive frame of it's time (and neither is the Trek Classics) but it was a frame ridden by several professional teams (Motorola and Telekom among others).


Your point was that your bike would be about $5,700 today. The Trek you discussed may cost $11,500 but the same frame equipped with Ultegra Di2, different paint and different wheels would only cost $6,000. Given that comparison, your initial point is meaningless. When you bought your Mercx there were more expensive bikes available at the time and there are more expensive bikes today than this $6,000 Trek. The idea that you are priced out of the high end market today but you weren't in 1993 is incorrect.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2013)

You could toss in the fact that your income would have increased dramatically over the last 20 years. If your income has remained stagnant during all those years then you have significant problems and buying a ridiculous bike is just one of the symptoms of the things you have done wrong.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> You could toss in the fact that your income would have increased dramatically over the last 20 years. If your income has remained stagnant during all those years then you have significant problems and buying a ridiculous bike is just one of the symptoms of the things you have done wrong.


Ah, but lighthouse! If you're poor and have nothing, no fine car, no 3 bedroom bungalow on a half acre, you can still enjoy the rewards of riding a fine bicycle.

Would you pass up a Fender Stratocruiser if you loved making music? I had nothing, not even a bed, 15 years ago. But I had two beautiful, top of the line bikes. Riding those bikes kept my head above water, continually reminding how the subtleties of riding can be more fully experienced on a top of the line bike.

Where there's a will there's a way. I put $20 in the dresser drawer, under the socks, every payday for a year. Presto, enough money for a copy of the bikes Eddy rode to victory! 70,000 miles later, it's still the favorite.

A year or so later, I commissioned a custom frame with a local builder, transferred Campy wheels and components previously bought on sales and clearances off another frame, and I got a commuter/winter bike. Still commute on it, too.

I think high end bicycles have gotten exponentially more expensive because of click shifters, labor intensive carbon fiber frames and components, and tricked out wheels. Back in '85, everybody rode happily on 32 spoked wheels, replaced the aluminum rims when they got trashed, and kept riding. Never had to replace a Campy hub. Take care of the cup and cone bearings, and those hubs will go forever.

Riding back then was cheap. A bike shop would build up a top of the line steel frame with the only good stuff back then, Campy, and anyone could ride exactly what the pros rode, not a consumer grade knock off. One could ride the bike of his hero for around $1300. I priced out some "dream bike" builds recently on Competitive Cyclist and couldn't get what I wanted for less than $10 grand. Inflation can't account for all of that increase. :shocked: Cost of production, no doubt enhanced by marketing, has to be responsible for the increase in prices.


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## fasteddy (Sep 22, 2005)

The question I have is how did the OP get chorus groupset in 93?


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Fredrico said:


> I priced out some "dream bike" builds recently on Competitive Cyclist and couldn't get what I wanted for less than $10 grand. Inflation can't account for all of that increase. :shocked: Cost of production, no doubt enhanced by marketing, has to be responsible for the increase in prices.


Go back & price it out in line with the type of bike you lusted for 30 years ago. Skip the carbon frames, electronic shifting and deep wheels. I just configured a Merckx EMX-5 with Campy Super Record 11 & Easton EA90 RT Tubeless wheels and it came to $5,500. Not cheap, but not the 5 figures I keep seeing. And that frame is far lighter than anything available 20+ years ago. Of course if you add $3,000 wheels and electronic shifting you'll pay more. But that stuff wasn't available back in the days that people keep remembering. So at least compare apples to apples.

Inflation may well not account for some of the increase you're seeing. Innovation does. New materials, new capabilities. All of those things that people keep telling me I don't need & won't make me faster. Yet when the complaints about exorbitant bike prices come up the high priced bikes always include these non-necessities.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> Ah, but lighthouse! If you're poor and have nothing, no fine car, no 3 bedroom bungalow on a half acre, you can still enjoy the rewards of riding a fine bicycle.
> 
> Would you pass up a Fender Stratocruiser if you loved making music? I had nothing, not even a bed, 15 years ago. But I had two beautiful, top of the line bikes. Riding those bikes kept my head above water, continually reminding how the subtleties of riding can be more fully experienced on a top of the line bike.
> 
> ...



Well that works well if you 20 as long as your getting your education. After college it's time to set your sights higher then a new bicycle.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

fasteddy said:


> The question I have is how did the OP get chorus groupset in 93?


I think Chorus came out in the late 80s. I went through a Chorus rear derailleur back then on the commuter.


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## MelloJohnny (Dec 30, 2012)

I loaded the Lynskey I built last winter into the back of the pickup the other day and realized that the bike was worth about 3 times more than the truck. That said, passion can not have a price put on it. Get what you want and know that you should always buy the best you can afford usaully you'll always be happy be with it. Don't put a price on what fuels that passion.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> Well that works well if you 20 as long as your getting your education. After college it's time to set your sights higher then a new bicycle.


Set sights higher? Well, I've never wanted a lot of stuff. I'm anal expulsive. I like to throw stuff out I have no use for. Knew a guy who collected bikes. He had probably 20. None of them were all that good, but he had a Marinoni hand built in Quebec in the 80s. Had Dura Ace on it. That was his best bike. He couldn't afford a new Pinarello Dogma, didn't want one. His thing was taking throw aways and making them rideable.

Not me. I'm not a collector. I look at riding as a sport, a physical activity like dancing, where the bike is an extension of the body, worked rhythmically by the rider, intense or soft in degrees, training the will to meet the challenges that come up. For this, the best equipment is thrilling, equipment that does superbly well what it was designed for. For me that's always been a long distance road racing bike.

To be quite honest, the carbon wonderbikes I've test ridden the last ten years just haven't equalled the thrill of that old steel bike. No feel for the road. Or too much. Dead front end. Too light for good descending, not enough inertial mass punching through the wall of air, keeping everything on the ground and tracking. Well brazed lugged steel has always worked great rocketing down mountains. Some carbon I've ridden scares the heck out of me going faster than 30 mph. All of a sudden, the nice stiff frame starts getting noodly. :shocked:

As an exercise machine as well as utilitarian vehicle, there's a wide variety of choices. Different strokes for different folks. That's a big part of the fun of cycling.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

serious said:


> sport7: *Personally, I have ridden a Trek Domane valued at over $3000 and do not recommend the bicycle. Instead I suggest the Trek 1.2*
> 
> Now that I understand where you are coming from, I would also suggest a Trek 1.2 for you too. But if I suggested it to a dedicated racer who trains 12-16 hours a day, I would sound a bit stupid, wouldn't I?


Your right. If you are a racer or an athlete, (i am neither, just enjoy riding for the health of it) then you need racing quality, same for any sport. 

If getting a $5000 bike gets you riding and improving your health then it is worth every penny and more over a cheap bicycle that does not motivate you. 

Personally i don't need that kind of motivation, so don't recommend it.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

this reply was originally written to reply to someone, but a general post will do...

After thinking about this for awhile, i would LIKE a Trek Domane or Madone, great bikes IMOH. My local Trek store has Madone with Di2 on it all custom and has run the price down quite a bit; great paint job and just my size. Now that bicycle would probably motivate me immensly, just the Di2 would be entertaining to use.

Most of us would probably LIKE a warehouse full of bikes, cars, perhaps motorcycles etc. on a lavish estate, but this thread is not about pie in the sky.

If getting a $5000 bike gets you riding and improving your health then it is worth every penny and more over a cheap bicycle that does not motivate you.

Common sense.

Many of us don't need an expensive bicycle to motivate us, the sport itself does that. As previously mentioned, repairing and modifying my Fuji Tourist and Schwinn Tandems motivates me plenty. Been thinking about some new wheels for the machines and don't know what to expect, every year i do something a little different.

My bikes have dual brake levers and plastic clips without straps, mods that work for me. Last week i slapped on some 25 mm tires over the old 32 mm tourist tires; again just for fun.

When the Trek Domanes start getting old and on Craigs list, i might buy one cheap.......but just for fun. ........and it might motivate me to ride more and write less.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

sport7 said:


> Most of us would probably LIKE a warehouse full of bikes, cars, perhaps motorcycles etc. on a lavish estate, but this thread is not about pie in the sky.


Actually that's exactly what this thread is about... pie in the sky.



merckxman said:


> ...where I discovered the price was $11,519.99.
> 
> WOW. I know there are more expensive bikes but this TREK, Di2 equipped bike, would be way out of my price range. I feel like I've been priced out of the high end market.


It's about not being able to justify the top end components on a high end frame, all the while ignoring that the bike itself is highly affordable if you go to mechanical instead of electronic, and non-deep wheels. It's all pie, all sky.

I did find this ironic...



sport7 said:


> After thinking about this for awhile, i would LIKE a Trek Domane or Madone, great bikes IMOH. My local Trek store has Madone with Di2 on it all custom and has run the price down quite a bit; great paint job and just my size. Now that bicycle would probably motivate me immensly, just the Di2 would be entertaining to use.


Echoing what many have already said. Buy the bike you want, the bike you will ride. Ignore the rest.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

DaveWC said:


> Actually that's exactly what this thread is about... pie in the sky.
> 
> Echoing what many have already said. Buy the bike you want, the bike you will ride. Ignore the rest.


For many of us, the bike we want is not the bike we ride. The car i drive is a Chevy, the car i want is Porshe. 

When a good used Mustang comes along with 6 on the floor and under the hood, that becomes my compromise. Bicycles are the same way, no need to go for the rich mans toy, when the Mustang will get you there. :idea:


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

sport7 said:


> For many of us, the bike we want is not the bike we ride. The car i drive is a Chevy, the car i want is Porshe.


That's fine. For many of us, it is the bike we ride. And happily. There's nothing wrong with your way of thinking. Spending should be prioritized so all needs are met. If I prioritize cycling to an extent that I value a more expensive bike than you do that's fine. Where you are incorrect IMO is when you say "basically any bicycle much over $1000 is unecessary". It's not unnecessary, just unnecessary to you. The fact that you don't see incremental value in a bike costing >$1,000 is your value judgment. But to post that video repeatedly (on another thread as well) and think that it has meaning is silly. It's an opinion of value in a bike from a person whose opinion I don't value. 

And what is this bit about being an athlete? Where's the cutoff? How is it determined whether someone is a recreational cyclist and another person is an athlete? Is it mileage based? If so, what's the mileage? Or is it speed based? Or should people just spend whatever amount they feel like on all facets of their life and not concern themselves with decisions that others make?


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

DaveWC said:


> That's fine. For many of us, it is the bike we ride. And happily. There's nothing wrong with your way of thinking. Spending should be prioritized so all needs are met. If I prioritize cycling to an extent that I value a more expensive bike than you do that's fine. Where you are incorrect IMO is when you say "basically any bicycle much over $1000 is unecessary". It's not unnecessary, just unnecessary to you. The fact that you don't see incremental value in a bike costing >$1,000 is your value judgment. But to post that video repeatedly (on another thread as well) and think that it has meaning is silly. It's an opinion of value in a bike from a person whose opinion I don't value.
> 
> And what is this bit about being an athlete? Where's the cutoff? How is it determined whether someone is a recreational cyclist and another person is an athlete? Is it mileage based? If so, what's the mileage? Or is it speed based? Or should people just spend whatever amount they feel like on all facets of their life and not concern themselves with decisions that others make?


Dave, i am speaking to the recreational person. A real athlete knows the gear he needs but the average guy like myself will get along fine with a Chevrolet. 

i doubt anyone would make their buying decision based on this thread, i wouldn't. 

All we are doing is throwing around personal opinions on how we happen to enjoy bicycling. If you need a $5000 bike to motivate you go ahead. Personally i would still ride if all i could afford was a Wallmart machine.

The same goes with that video, apparently it has gotten LOTS of attention (250,000 views and counting) and i mostly agree with him. He advocates the bicycle engine over an equipment emphasis. 

To someone caught up in luxury/performance bicycles, this would not sit well, they must have the best for motivation/status or other unknown reasons. But again it is just his educated opinion on the vid. Would he like a carbon frame top of the line bicycle if given one?

yep.

Most anyone would, but that is not his point. He is basically telling the rest of us that can't/won't afford such a machine to take it lite.

So we do. :thumbsup:

And one more thing...what is an athlete? Could be more of a state of mind that results in physical fitness and a Carbon bicycle of some kind.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

This, exactly.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

A lot, or maybe even most, people who make around $10 bucks an hour at work drive a car worth $10k-$15k and still live within their means. 

If a bike costs 10k, you're expected to be incredibly wealthy to own one though. I always thought that was weird. 

My bike was $900 new (plus upgrades ), so im not trying to justify my position... but still. You CAN own a 10k+ bike pretty easy, even on a pretty low wage. 

Im a regular on car forums. Its pretty standard to see young college kids throwing around 10k on car upgrades. That sort of money is reserved for the "rich" here though. I dont think thats particularly a good idea either, but its doable.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> Set sights higher? Well, I've never wanted a lot of stuff. I'm anal expulsive. I like to throw stuff out I have no use for. Knew a guy who collected bikes. He had probably 20. None of them were all that good, but he had a Marinoni hand built in Quebec in the 80s. Had Dura Ace on it. That was his best bike. He couldn't afford a new Pinarello Dogma, didn't want one. His thing was taking throw aways and making them rideable.
> 
> Not me. I'm not a collector. I look at riding as a sport, a physical activity like dancing, where the bike is an extension of the body, worked rhythmically by the rider, intense or soft in degrees, training the will to meet the challenges that come up. For this, the best equipment is thrilling, equipment that does superbly well what it was designed for. For me that's always been a long distance road racing bike.
> 
> ...



Well on the first part I was not talking about buying stuff actually. But never mind as it's off topic anyway.

On the rest you have good points.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

TomH said:


> A lot, or maybe even most, people who make around $10 bucks an hour at work drive a car worth $10k-$15k and still live within their means.
> 
> If a bike costs 10k, you're expected to be incredibly wealthy to own one though. I always thought that was weird.
> 
> ...




You should write a book. "maximum living on minimum wage" It could make you rich. _But if you can buy a car and a bicycle on pocket change then my hat's off to you. _


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## SBard1985 (May 13, 2012)

TomH said:


> A lot, or maybe even most, people who make around $10 bucks an hour at work drive a car worth $10k-$15k and still live within their means.


I agree with you, mostly. I'm a ski bum and a full time college student. My three bikes collectively are worth quite a bit more than my car. I would say my assets are mostly in the place of bikes, snowboard equipment, and backpacking gear (toys). I paid $4,500 for my car, upfront, cash. If these people that make $10 an hr and are driving cars that cost $10k to $15k and paid for them upfront or with an adequate down payment and modest monthly payments and not living paycheck to paycheck, then yes, I would say they are living within their means. If they put the minimum down, and are paying outrageous monthly payments on a car that continues to depreciate in value, then no, they are not living within their means.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

The point of this thread is that people are priced out of the high end bike market because the rent's too damned high. It has morphed into the typical thread that no one should spend more than $X on a bike unless they're riding on the Tour* (* or they are "athletes"). I submit these two bikes as a rebuttal:

Storck Scentron Shimano Ultegra Di2 Complete Bike - 2012 - $2,999

Fuji Bicycles Altamira LTD/Shimano Ultegra Di2 Complete Bike - $2,999


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

This really isn't about bikes. In just about every consumer category, some sellers continue to push the envelope in terms of pricing and there are some consumers who will spend what seems like unlimited amounts of money pushing/justifying higher price even higher. You continue to see that in cars, wine, watches and road bikes.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

At what point do these high end bikes become status symbols?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

velodog said:


> At what point do these high end bikes become status symbols?




They already are, in part, just like everything else. People like their toys. It's not strictly about exercise, and when you are selling a product for 10k,15k or 20k you are not going to market it strictly based on functionality.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

velodog said:


> At what point do these high end bikes become status symbols?


Apparently when you spend more than $299. That Wellington comes with everything you need including pedals. It will get you there and that seems to be the only prerequisite when choosing a bike. People put these artificial caps on bikes and say things like "you don't need a bike that costs more than $1,000" but really you don't need more than that $299 bike. You won't be any faster on a more expensive bike. You aren't an athlete. So why would you need anything costing more?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Apparently when you spend more than $299. That Wellington comes with everything you need including pedals. It will get you there and that seems to be the only prerequisite when choosing a bike. People put these artificial caps on bikes and say things like "you don't need a bike that costs more than $1,000" but really you don't need more than that $299 bike. You won't be any faster on a more expensive bike. You aren't an athlete. So why would you need anything costing more?


Some of us put on an easy 100 miles on the bike each week, some do considerably more. We want to enjoy ourselves and our bike. It's not that different than buying a fancy car with chrome wheels or a high output v8.


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

He seems to talk more about himself for one and what a top athlete he is. And clearly endorses bikes direct. This guys figures are way off. $2000 for an ultegra crank, $500 for a cassette??, not to mention labor wages. He's also comparing a $4000 motorcycle to the top trek. Not comparing the top trek to say a high end ducati or the $4000 motorcycle to the entry level carbon trek at least. Weight Scam suggest that there is this big scam going on that people are somehow being tricked into buying 12,000 bikes…really?? that was 37 minutes of my life I will never get back and I'm stupider now for having watched that. He is not the expert, or whatever, he makes himself out to be. You'd find better advice on this site than in that video.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> Some of us put on an easy 100 miles on the bike each week, some do considerably more. We want to enjoy ourselves and our bike. It's not that different than buying a fancy car with chrome wheels or a high output v8.


If the 299 bike doesn't do it for you, then he suggests the 650 job, ready to go out of the box. 

i happen to like the Trek 1.2 as it was modeled after the Trek Madone except in aluminum, if memory serves. 

Going a little upscale from that, then perhaps the Motobecane Gran Premio COMP Reynolds High Grade Steel Road Bikes for 800 would be over the top. Steel is real and it has Reynolds 520 tubing; the tubing i always wanted in the 70's. 



ejprez said:


> Weight Scam suggest that there is this big scam going on that people are somehow being tricked into buying 12,000 bikes…really?? that was 37 minutes of my life I will never get back and I'm stupider now for having watched that. He is not the expert, or whatever, he makes himself out to be. You'd find better advice on this site than in that video.


Turn the tables, if you can only spend 800 on a bike, what would that be and what would it lack in your opinion?


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

Turn the tables, if you can only spend 800 on a bike, what would that be and what would it lack in your opinion?[/QUOTE]

I think the overall quality of BD bikes are not quite as good as a name brand, whether a trek, giant, specialized etc. even for bikes under $800 there are plenty of ways to cut costs. You are not getting a 600-800 bike for $300 on that site, you're getting a $300 bike. For the $800 trek you might get a quick fitting and depending on your shop you might get a few free services for a year or maybe the life of the bike. Plus you won't have to pay to have it already assembled. I'll admit some shops are not deserving of local patronage and actually compel people to look online, but if you have a shop thats reputable than I'd say give them a bite at the apple first. 

Personally for me an $800 bike would not cut it, the ride quality would not be good and parts would not hold up. An entry level bike is good for someone riding approximately 1-2, maybe 3, days a week. The weight scam vid even said, you can check his comments too, that he bought the $300 bike and then paid another $300 to upgrade the wheels and I think even upgraded the crank. I agree not everyone needs a 12,000, or even 3000 dollar bike, but his platform is just so wrong in many ways. A caad 10 IMO is the best dollar value for a road racing bike. if thats to aggressive of a position to ride in then a madone, do mane, roubaix, synapse or similar style bike with long head tubes and shorter top tubes.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

ejprez said:


> Turn the tables, if you can only spend 800 on a bike, what would that be and what would it lack in your opinion?
> 
> I think the overall quality of BD bikes are not quite as good as a name brand, whether a trek, giant, specialized etc. even for bikes under $800 there are plenty of ways to cut costs. You are not getting a 600-800 bike for $300 on that site, you're getting a $300 bike. For the $800 trek you might get a quick fitting and depending on your shop you might get a few free services for a year or maybe the life of the bike. Plus you won't have to pay to have it already assembled. I'll admit some shops are not deserving of local patronage and actually compel people to look online, but if you have a shop thats reputable than I'd say give them a bite at the apple first.
> 
> Personally for me an $800 bike would not cut it, the ride quality would not be good and parts would not hold up. An entry level bike is good for someone riding approximately 1-2, maybe 3, days a week. The weight scam vid even said, you can check his comments too, that he bought the $300 bike and then paid another $300 to upgrade the wheels and I think even upgraded the crank. I agree not everyone needs a 12,000, or even 3000 dollar bike, but his platform is just so wrong in many ways. A caad 10 IMO is the best dollar value for a road racing bike. if thats to aggressive of a position to ride in then a madone, do mane, roubaix, synapse or similar style bike with long head tubes and shorter top tubes.


thanks, under 800 is where i am looking. 

i really can't speak with experience about high end bikes as i have never owned one. My current bicycle is a Fuji Touring about $1000 new (bought used). Where i live the Trek stores offer long demos as they are parked along the bike trails. My friend was loaned a Trek Domane for a week to ride on vacation and was quite enthused over the matter. 

i would be too.

The video was offered as he seems to be serious about avoiding high end bicycles, his arguments seem rational especially if the buyer has no cash to investigate these finer machines. 

Again, this is just his opinion and he seems to enjoy whatever benefits these machines can do for him.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

ejprez said:


> Turn the tables, if you can only spend 800 on a bike, what would that be and what would it lack in your opinion?


I think the overall quality of BD bikes are not quite as good as a name brand, whether a trek, giant, specialized etc. even for bikes under $800 there are plenty of ways to cut costs. You are not getting a 600-800 bike for $300 on that site, you're getting a $300 bike. For the $800 trek you might get a quick fitting and depending on your shop you might get a few free services for a year or maybe the life of the bike. Plus you won't have to pay to have it already assembled. I'll admit some shops are not deserving of local patronage and actually compel people to look online, but if you have a shop thats reputable than I'd say give them a bite at the apple first. 

Personally for me an $800 bike would not cut it, the ride quality would not be good and parts would not hold up. An entry level bike is good for someone riding approximately 1-2, maybe 3, days a week. The weight scam vid even said, you can check his comments too, that he bought the $300 bike and then paid another $300 to upgrade the wheels and I think even upgraded the crank. I agree not everyone needs a 12,000, or even 3000 dollar bike, but his platform is just so wrong in many ways. A caad 10 IMO is the best dollar value for a road racing bike. if thats to aggressive of a position to ride in then a madone, do mane, roubaix, synapse or similar style bike with long head tubes and shorter top tubes.[/QUOTE]

I'm riding a set-up priced around 8k. I'ts not a value bike, but what i'm riding executes flawlessly. It's a joy to ride. You can't get that from $1,000 bikes direct. The 1k bikes direct might take you from point a to b, and the guy riding it might beat in race, but it represents a compromise. No way to escape that.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

sport7 said:


> thanks, under 800 is where i am looking.


Looking as in looking to buy? Why would you need a new bike? What's wrong with your current $1,000 (cost for a new bike) bike? 

Your opinion on the Domane is surely a changing thing...



sport7 said:


> i am familiar with the Domane frame and test rode one at Trek, yep nice bike but i was not able to see the difference between the Domane and the Trek 1.2, go ahead and laugh.





sport7 said:


> Personally, i have ridden a Trek Domane valued at over $3000 and do not recommend the bicycle. Instead i suggest the Trek 1.2 and generally had for under a thousand dollars. Again, take a test ride and see for yourself.





sport7 said:


> After thinking about this for awhile, i would LIKE a Trek Domane or Madone, great bikes IMOH. My local Trek store has Madone with Di2 on it all custom and has run the price down quite a bit; great paint job and just my size. Now that bicycle would probably motivate me immensly, just the Di2 would be entertaining to use.





sport7 said:


> My friend was loaned a Trek Domane for a week to ride on vacation and was quite enthused over the matter.
> 
> i would be too.


So all in this thread you've gone from saying that the Domane is no different than a Trek 1.2, not recommending it for anyone (except for athletes) to lusting over it and being enthused over owning one. Sounds like a love/hate relationship where you're justifying your choice of a bike by knocking the choices of others. Obviously people should buy the bike they can afford and be satisfied with that. But you've gone from saying that no one should buy a bike that costs more than $1,000 to revealing that you really want a $3k bike. The fact that you can't afford one doesn't mean that no one else should. 

For under $800 I'd settle for the bike you own and wait until I could get something appreciably better. The fact that you own a reasonable bike already and yet you're still looking for another shows that you aren't satisfied with it.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Apparently when you spend more than $299. That Wellington comes with everything you need including pedals. It will get you there and that seems to be the only prerequisite when choosing a bike. People put these artificial caps on bikes and say things like "you don't need a bike that costs more than $1,000" but really you don't need more than that $299 bike. You won't be any faster on a more expensive bike. You aren't an athlete. So why would you need anything costing more?


I had a schwinn varsity once. Among my friends it was a status symbol back in the day. They cost $82.00 back then (71). It was a 40lb bike made out of contractor pipes. Forward motion required everything you could muster. But the truth of it is the bike was a piece of junk that would barely roll. Over enough time you could get to point B on it. However the good news is I bought better bikes as time moved on. That particular bike wound up getting squashed by a car and i got my money back on it. I was not hurt. 

Anyway I would not take the Wellington for free. My skin is to precious to risk it on a piece of junk.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> Anyway I would not take the Wellington for free. My skin is to precious to risk it on a piece of junk.


Neither would I. I have a Trek 7.5 FX that I use for rainy/city days. It's <$1,000 and works fine for my needs. But it's completely utilitarian. It allows me to get a workout on crappy weather days. It's also good for doing chores on a bike where I don't want to wear cycling shorts/shoes. I enjoy the fact that I'm getting a workout but I don't enjoy the bike. I'd rather just own the FX rather than nothing. My Madone provides me with a totally different level of enjoyment. I ride solo so it's not a bike that I own to impress anyone but myself. Maybe it is a status symbol but if so it's a symbol of a reward to myself for achieving a level of success that allows me to own a bike that totally satisfies me. I have absolutely no need to upgrade it or replace it.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Neither would I. I have a Trek 7.5 FX that I use for rainy/city days. It's <$1,000 and works fine for my needs. But it's completely utilitarian. It allows me to get a workout on crappy weather days. It's also good for doing chores on a bike where I don't want to wear cycling shorts/shoes. I enjoy the fact that I'm getting a workout but I don't enjoy the bike. I'd rather just own the FX rather than nothing. My Madone provides me with a totally different level of enjoyment. I ride solo so it's not a bike that I own to impress anyone but myself. Maybe it is a status symbol but if so it's a symbol of a reward to myself for achieving a level of success that allows me to own a bike that totally satisfies me. I have absolutely no need to upgrade it or replace it.



The same with me pretty much. I do not own top of the line bikes but the equipment I have is all very good. Just what I need and all easily within my budget. I rode Cienaga Valley (San Benito county, Calif) on Friday on my road bike and it has a steep winding descent on the North side of the ride. My Lighthouse handled it like a dream. It's a 30mile loop from my doorstep. 1200 ft of climbing according to my Garmin. Today i will do the 20mile ride out in the country. Equally as beautiful but shorter and only 700ft of climbing. It's my usual ride.

My commute bike carries me 1 mile to the Hospital I work at. It's tuned up well and has 2 blinking lights in the back, headlight up front and excellent breaks. Beat up looking from years in the bike rack at the hospital. In January I am giving it to my son as he wants it to ride to the bart station in Oakland. I will be retired and will not be comutting any longer. I plan to ride more as I will have the time. Projects around the house and GrandPa time with my granddaughter. I was thinking about some motel touring also but my wife is against it. She worries a lot about stuff. We shall see how that goes.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

I figured it out...

I have decided that if someone has bought a bike that they feel is too nice to ride in the rain, they have spent too much on the bike.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

DaveWC said:


> Looking as in looking to buy? Why would you need a new bike? What's wrong with your current $1,000 (cost for a new bike) bike?
> 
> Your opinion on the Domane is surely a changing thing...
> 
> ...


Of course my opinion changes.

That is why i come here, to learn from those who have experienced aspects of the bike that may have eluded me. 

i still don't recommend expensive bikes to those like me who financially need to stay away from expensive sports equipment and need to ride more sensible common quality equipment.

However, i do recognize the superior comfort/performance of these higher end bikes and would LIKE to own one but cannot justify a new price tag of 3k or 6k for a bicycle.

i would not even buy my bike new for 1000, but got it used off of Craigs list. The reason i am looking for a bike 800 or less is that my current bike is a Tourist model and not built for performance the way a lighter road bike would be. It may be that even $650 bike from BD would blow a Fuji Tourist away. 

Perhaps a section of the forum dedicated to the Low End of the biking world would be in order. 

gotta go, finish later perhaps...


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

My take is that the tiers among bikes has expanded greatly over the years. A quality bike can be found for just about any price point desired. Those hunting the exclusive levels want an exclusive bike and to separate those who are willing to play that game is the wallet. 

Considering how nice the mid-level bikes are in the $3-$6K range, to me it is an arbitrary number that is attached. There will be those who seek that bit more to satisfy themselves at multiple levels of the purchase though. In that case, there are options from the boxed versions in terms of a custom handmade frame build. Considering how good builders are, a good fitting bike is a win. 

Also depends on what satisfies/makes one happy. The bike treadmill is endless and that is a successful marketing and advertising goal for these companies to develop dissatisfaction among consumers.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

The funny thing is an entry level bike now is vastly superior in virtually every way to a top end race bike from the 80's. By top end I mean Super Record, entry level is Veloce or 105. Brakes that work, closer spaced gears that work not to mention they're way more affordable now. 

In 83 when I started riding I earned £80 a week gross and a Nuovo Record bike was £1000 new. 30 years on a top end bike of the same ilk is £4000 and a similar job pays £300 a week. Barely any difference. Even back then there were unattainable bike pars, such as the Swiss ICS Super Record, silk tubs that were £50 and Campagnolo freewheels!


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

velodog said:


> I figured it out...
> 
> I have decided that if someone has bought a bike that they feel is too nice to ride in the rain, they have spent too much on the bike.


Great post and very true. It's a damned bike - ride it FFS!


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

velodog said:


> I figured it out...
> 
> I have decided that if someone has bought a bike that they feel is too nice to ride in the rain, they have spent too much on the bike.


Well that's what this thread is all about... deciding how much other people should spend on their bikes. Well played. 

One reason I take the FX out instead of the Madone is that I don't feel the need to clean the FX after a rainy ride whereas I would with the Madone. I'm pretty sure the Madone won't dissolve. Another reason is that the Madone is too fast for wet streets IMO. I ride slower on the FX due to the wider tires & upright position and feel safer when the conditions suck. I also wouldn't ride my Madone on snow covered roads so that must mean I spent way too much on it. 

Maybe you could also check out my car and tell me if I spent too much there.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

sport7 said:


> Of course my opinion changes.
> 
> That is why i come here, to learn from those who have experienced aspects of the bike that may have eluded me.
> 
> i still don't recommend expensive bikes to those like me who financially need to stay away from expensive sports equipment and need to ride more sensible common quality equipment.


I guess you were wrong when you said this...



sport7 said:


> i doubt anyone would make their buying decision based on this thread, i wouldn't.


Basically you've come around to what most people were saying to begin with... buy the bike you want & can afford.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> The funny thing is an entry level bike now is vastly superior in virtually every way to a top end race bike from the 80's. By top end I mean Super Record, entry level is Veloce or 105. Brakes that work, closer spaced gears that work not to mention they're way more affordable now.
> 
> In 83 when I started riding I earned £80 a week gross and a Nuovo Record bike was £1000 new. 30 years on a top end bike of the same ilk is £4000 and a similar job pays £300 a week. Barely any difference. Even back then there were unattainable bike pars, such as the Swiss ICS Super Record, silk tubs that were £50 and Campagnolo freewheels!


Technically, perhaps, an entry level road bike today is all around a better performing bike than the pro racing bikes in the 80s. It'll have a stiff frame, twice as many gears closely spaced controlled by failsafe click shifters right on the hoods. Oh, and be at least 4 pounds lighter. That's 15-20% less weight than the 80s pro bikes. Big difference. :yesnod: Thanks for pointing out that bikes really haven't gotten more expensive. That's based on the assumption that a serious buyer can obtain a top of the line bike for around $5000 that will ride just like those $12,000 rigs and hold up as well. Hmmm…:idea:

I'm still not ready to spring for one of those Fuji Altamira, though. A friend just got one. He says its like "formula one racing." But he never raced on the best steel available in the 80s! I got spoiled. Now I want what the pros ride.

Sure, status? Trying to be stylish! Gets respect, don't it?  A few of us, in our abiding passion for excellence, honed in lazer-like on equipment options, have to show the less dedicated what's cool and trendy! :ihih:


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveWC said:


> Well that's what this thread is all about... deciding how much other people should spend on their bikes. Well played.
> 
> One reason I take the FX out instead of the Madone is that I don't feel the need to clean the FX after a rainy ride whereas I would with the Madone. I'm pretty sure the Madone won't dissolve. Another reason is that the Madone is too fast for wet streets IMO. I ride slower on the FX due to the wider tires & upright position and feel safer when the conditions suck. I also wouldn't ride my Madone on snow covered roads so that must mean I spent way too much on it.
> 
> Maybe you could also check out my car and tell me if I spent too much there.


I don't care what you've spent on your car or your bike, but as far as a bike being too fast to ride on wet streets....that's just plain silly. A bike is only as fast or slow as the pressure that's exerted on the pedals. Want to go slow, soft pedal. Want to go fast, pedal for all you're worth.

A bike ain't nothing but a tool, use it and maintain it, easy peasy. 
When it gets wet and dirty, squirt it with a hose and wipe it with a rag. Then oil the chain. Ten extra minutes and the job's done.

I just don't understand the thought process that goes into buying the wanted bike and then riding the bike that doesn't even warrant a wipe down after a ride.

But I don't ride a Trek.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

DaveWC said:


> Well that's what this thread is all about... deciding how much other people should spend on their bikes. Well played.
> 
> One reason I take the FX out instead of the Madone is that I don't feel the need to clean the FX after a rainy ride whereas I would with the Madone. I'm pretty sure the Madone won't dissolve. Another reason is that the Madone is too fast for wet streets IMO. I ride slower on the FX due to the wider tires & upright position and feel safer when the conditions suck. I also wouldn't ride my Madone on snow covered roads so that must mean I spent way too much on it.
> 
> Maybe you could also check out my car and tell me if I spent too much there.


Shouldn't the old bike be the one you take out in bad weather, snow/rain etc. Don't know if the FX is the last bike you rode or you bought a new bike to ride in bad weather. Hope it's the former. Two brand new road bikes seems excessive, unless you live on two coasts and don't want to transport them or something.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

velodog said:


> I just don't understand the thought process that goes into buying the wanted bike and then riding the bike that doesn't even warrant a wipe down after a ride.


While it's common for people not to understand the thought processes of others, owning a cheaper bike to ride on crappy days isn't something I invented. If you think hard enough I'm sure you'll get it, the internet is littered with threads on the subject. I believe you're just being argumentative for the sake of it as I'm pretty sure you got it at one point as I recall you saying that you had a "rain bike" but that it didn't get much use as you realized that your favorite bikes don't dissolve in the rain. I believe you also said that hadn't ridden your favorite bike as much because you hadn't gotten around to cleaning and greasing it. That's a weird thing given what you just posted. Maybe if you rode the rain bike on the crappy days you could continue to neglect it and your favorite bike would get more use as it would be clean & ready to go. But what do I know, I'm sure you'll correct me. I don't see how any of this is relevant to the thread, but the hypocrisy is certainly entertaining.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Trek_5200 said:


> Shouldn't the old bike be the one you take out in bad weather, snow/rain etc. Don't know if the FX is the last bike you rode or you bought a new bike to ride in bad weather. Hope it's the former. Two brand new road bikes seems excessive, unless you live on two coasts and don't want to transport them or something.


I ride the FX on rainy days. It's not based on age although the Madone is the newer of the two. I don't think of the FX as a road bike given the flat handlebars.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

DaveWC said:


> I'm pretty sure you got it at one point as I recall you saying that you had a "rain bike"...


Found it.



velodog said:


> There's a coupla bikes that I ride with great frequency, a frame that's hanging there that may never be rode by me again, but who knows, my most favorite bike that I been wanting to ride but just ain't gotten around to cleanin' and greasin' and a rain bike that don't get rode much 'cause I'll ride the 1st two in the rain and wet without much worry.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

velodog said:


> I figured it out...
> 
> I have decided that if someone has bought a bike that they feel is too nice to ride in the rain, they have spent too much on the bike.




_I can run fenders on my Lighthouse with 700x25 tires. I was planning on riding on wet roads with it. The wipe down is a lot of work. I usually do not actually ride in the rain but every year I get caught out there anyway. On my commute bike I ride in the rain or whatever is out there as I have to get to work. I change when I get there so it's not earth shattering if I get wet. I work in the Operating Room so I wear scrubs. 

I have not bought fenders for it yet and am not sure which ones to buy. I put a set on my Surly when i had it. They are SKS fenders but they were pretty hard to set up as you have to cut the rods. They are metal with a plastic coating. 


The Lighthouse is a riding bike so I am going to ride it. _


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

I disagree.
I would not ride the Colnago with carbon wheels and whatnot high-zoot parts out in the rain. More chance of damaging rims and/or crashing.
I bought that bike same reason I bought a sports car. Nice day ride.



velodog said:


> I figured it out...
> 
> I have decided that if someone has bought a bike that they feel is too nice to ride in the rain, they have spent too much on the bike.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

CoLiKe20 said:


> I disagree.
> I would not ride the Colnago with carbon wheels and whatnot high-zoot parts out in the rain. More chance of damaging rims and/or crashing.
> I bought that bike same reason I bought a sports car. Nice day ride.


I tend to avoid riding any bike in the rain. Rode my c-59 in a light drizzle for an hour but only because I knew the sun was coming out and it was to be what may be the last nice day of the year for a long ride. For iffy weather, I whip out the Trek 5200, the old work-horse.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

For me it is not that the bike is too nice, but the tires are. In rainy weather you have a dual issue with glass: first, it is harder to see because the wet surface reflects light and thus hides the glass; second, small pieces of glass adhere to the tire more easily when wet and can work their way through. I use Vittoria CX tires on my good bikes and Bontrager Hardcase tires on my rain bike. This way I can minimize flats...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveWC said:


> Found it.


Yep, my favorite bike is my 1st good bike. I don't ride it much anymore because it's been hanging on the hook for quite a number of years and needs to be gone over before it's road worthy. You know, cables, bearings, grease and brake pads. And as much as I like it, I would rather ride a bike with a modern transmission instead of it's 6x2 gearing. 

And the frame that's just hanging there that may never be ridden is a plastic frame(Ridley Excalibur) that I have lost interest in. But when I was riding it I rode it in the rain too.

And seeing as you went through all the trouble of finding that post I'm sure you read the part about me having a rain bike that don't get rode much because I'll ride the others in the rain. So, yeah, it's just hanging there for the last number of years.


There is no hypocrisy, you've just got your panties in a bunch over something that I said.
My favorite bike is my favorite for sentimental reasons, it needs cleanin' and greasin' because it's been hanging on it's hook for the last 7 years, not from neglect.

I have a rain bike that goes unused because I'll ride my good bikes in the rain.

I get the concept of a rain bike, I have one as you have pointed out. I tried it and have decided that life is too short not to ride the nice bike no matter what the weather so the rainbike goes unused. So I guess that I don't understand it.

As far as being argumentative, I'm not. After all it was you who went to all the trouble to pick me apart.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> _I can run fenders on my Lighthouse with 700x25 tires. I was planning on riding on wet roads with it. The wipe down is a lot of work. I usually do not actually ride in the rain but every year I get caught out there anyway. On my commute bike I ride in the rain or whatever is out there as I have to get to work. I change when I get there so it's not earth shattering if I get wet. I work in the Operating Room so I wear scrubs.
> 
> I have not bought fenders for it yet and am not sure which ones to buy. I put a set on my Surly when i had it. They are SKS fenders but they were pretty hard to set up as you have to cut the rods. They are metal with a plastic coating.
> 
> ...


If you've got the room and the frame was built to have fenders installed these may be the way to go.

Honjo 700c 35mm H-35 fenders smooth round


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

velodog said:


> I get the concept of a rain bike, I have one as you have pointed out. I tried it and have decided that life is too short not to ride the nice bike no matter what the weather so the rainbike goes unused. So I guess that I don't understand it.
> 
> As far as being argumentative, I'm not. After all it was you who went to all the trouble to pick me apart.


The only reason you & I are discussing any of this is for that very reason. Or to put it in words you can understand I have decided that if someone has bought a bike that they hang on the rafters or sit in their garage instead of riding, they have spent too much on the bike. Annually I get about 1,000 kms on my "rain bike" and about 12,000 kms on my road bike. If that ratio indicates that I spent too much on my road bike in your mind, I can live with that. Again, this thread seems to be all about telling others how much to spend, what to buy & how to ride the bikes they have bought.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveWC said:


> The only reason you & I are discussing any of this is for that very reason. Or to put it in words you can understand I have decided that if someone has bought a bike that they hang on the rafters or sit in their garage instead of riding, they have spent too much on the bike. Annually I get about 1,000 kms on my "rain bike" and about 12,000 kms on my road bike. If that ratio indicates that I spent too much on my road bike in your mind, I can live with that. Again, this thread seems to be all about telling others how much to spend, what to buy & how to ride the bikes they have bought.


No, the only reason we are having this conversation is so you can prove that you're right and I'm wrong. So now you can unbunch your panties and beat on your chest and profess your manhood 'cause you've proven to yourself that you're superior in every way.

Bye


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

velodog said:


> No, the only reason we are having this conversation is so you can prove that you're right and I'm wrong. So now you can unbunch your panties and beat on your chest and profess your manhood 'cause you've proven to yourself that you're superior in every way.
> 
> Bye


As I watch this mini flame war all I can think of is this:


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

SauronHimself said:


> As I watch this mini flame war all I can think of is this:


I had to turn up the volume to hear this video over the sound of my fists beating on my chest.


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## mtor (Mar 1, 2007)

merckxman said:


> I just received an email from TREK announcing the Domane "Classic Edition". After following the link I eventually came to the Details page where I discovered the price was $11,519.99.
> 
> WOW. I know there are more expensive bikes but this TREK, Di2 equipped bike, would be way out of my price range. I feel like I've been priced out of the high end market.
> 
> ...


Wow thats the price of a used car.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

I typically pay more for my bikes than I do for my cars. It is a question of priorities...


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2013)

velodog said:


> If you've got the room and the frame was built to have fenders installed these may be the way to go.
> 
> Honjo 700c 35mm H-35 fenders smooth round






Thanks for the link. A quick look shows that they are for bikes with 23mm tires and I run 25mm but possibly they have different sizes. I will check it out. The stores around here stock the SKS German fenders and the Planet Earth Chinese fenders. I have not seen a different style. 

I had the bike built to run fenders around the 25mm tire. No rack mounts.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> Thanks for the link. A quick look shows that they are for bikes with 23mm tires and I run 25mm but possibly they have different sizes. I will check it out. The stores around here stock the SKS German fenders and the Planet Earth Chinese fenders. I have not seen a different style.
> 
> I had the bike built to run fenders around the 25mm tire. No rack mounts.


They are made in several sizes, I just showed the narrowest. Those fenders are more a permanent fender system, not something that are easily snapped on and off. If you peruse the whole page you'll see that they come in aluminum and stainless and a coupla different styles.

Another outlet for them is 

compasscycle.com

And here's a blog with some how to for those fenders.

Does My Bike Take Fenders? | Off The Beaten Path


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2013)

velodog said:


> They are made in several sizes, I just showed the narrowest. Those fenders are more a permanent fender system, not something that are easily snapped on and off. If you peruse the whole page you'll see that they come in aluminum and stainless and a coupla different styles.
> 
> Another outlet for them is
> 
> ...



That's a cool website. I had no idea you could still buy a TA crankset. Those were very popular back in the day and I am sure people that are building classic bikes would be interested in the TA and Sugino cranks.

The fenders also look very interesting. I will continue to browse the information to see if I think they have something that will work.


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## rainxman (Sep 18, 2013)

bradkay said:


> I typically pay more for my bikes than I do for my cars. It is a question of priorities...


What do you ride? If I spend more on my bikes than my cars, I would be too afraid to even ride my bike without a full coverage insurance.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Can't believe you pay so much attention to what others ride or don't ride. Instead of applauding them for riding in the rain you abuse them for not riding a bike you already consider too expensive in the rain.

If someone has a nice Sunday in the park bike good for them. If they ride in crappy weather good for them no matter what they are riding.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

rainxman said:


> What do you ride? If I spend more on my bikes than my cars, I would be too afraid to even ride my bike without a full coverage insurance.


I buy cheap used cars... I only paid $1000 for my Civic twelve years ago and I paid $1200 for my Loyale wagon five years ago. 

Any one of the four bikes I ride is worth more than that, but so are a lot of bikes on the market.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Jeebus Christmas this thread has staying power! When I first saw it I gave it under 10 posts.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2013)

I spend more on cars then bikes but yet I do not own a car.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

Ted K said:


> I don't agree at all. Without even getting into weight, compliance, comfort, power transfer, stiffness, I ride a bike with Ultegra Di2. There is no way you can compare the easy, speed and reliability and technical advantage of this shifting with mechanical groupos. I can change gears going up or down a steep long hill through almost the entire cassette, saving energy and improving my ride. On my training bike with Shimano 105, I couldn't do half the gear swapping. Is expensive rides for everyone? Obviously no. But we all work hard and make decisions on what to spend on. Some folks, big house. Others fancy cars. Some, expensive bikes. It's all up to the individual person, but you shouldn't try to explain or put your values and judgments on others. Just say your opinion about you, why you do what you do and leave it at that.


if you are talking compact cranksets, then you are spot on with respect to di2, there is no comparison. after this weekend's horrible hundred, my brother, a long time fan of the compact had to agree with my assessment--a 105 with compact and rolling hills are sh!T3 combination. he's now looking at ultegra or campy as a replacement for the 105.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> I spend more on cars then bikes but yet I do not own a car.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2013)

SauronHimself said:


>



6 kids and I bought them each a good car for college.


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## powbob (Jun 10, 2008)

You may have noticed that there is now a huge income disparity in this country which only seems to be growing worse. Prices of non-essential goods mirror this trend. If you are not in the upper echelon income wise you probably won't be able to afford the "best" items for sale. It's really not so bad though. There are amazing bikes available for $2-5000.


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## sport7 (Jan 10, 2010)

powbob said:


> You may have noticed that there is now a huge income disparity in this country which only seems to be growing worse. Prices of non-essential goods mirror this trend. If you are not in the upper echelon income wise you probably won't be able to afford the "best" items for sale. It's really not so bad though. There are amazing bikes available for $2-5000.


Well yeah, there are amazing bikes for 2 to 5 grand...but hardly necessary to spend that much...


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

sport7 said:


> Well yeah, there are amazing bikes for 2 to 5 grand...but hardly necessary to spend that much. Nashbar consistently advertises their carbon bike on sale for 1,000.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand where you're coming from, and to a certain extent will agree, but there are some points I have to disagree with you;
1) The Nashbar carbon frame bike selling for $1000 is nice (there's a guy lives close that has one), but it's not on the same level as something like my LBS owner's Parlee. Even if I couldn't tell you what the differences are, even I can tell that they are on different levels, and not just cost.
2) While expensive bikes may not be strictly necessary for the basic activity of cycling in general, someone who rides 6,000 miles a year will get far more enjoyment on a higher level bike than someone like me, who might do 1800-2500 miles a year. So the same bike that would be bragging rights for me, may well be a true boon to a much more hardcore rider.
3)While the Schwinn Slicker was kinda nice (was going to buy one until they sold out of my size on Nashbar), Brand new it never sold for less than $425, and the 2014 is more like $725. 2014 also saw a downgrade to Deore and Alivio and a flat bar, so not much of a deal anymore.
4) Watches aren't a valid comparison as if you just need a timepiece, you can get a digital at anywhere for $5-10. I buy Timex as well 'cause I like analog watches and Timex work for me. Thing is those who buy Rolex aren't buying timepieces, they're buying fashion accessories, status symbols, and a portable, negotiable investment, as well as a possible family heirloom. Anybody can derive gains from a Rolex (no matter how they acquire one), but no one except a consistent, diligent cyclist will get any kind of gain from, say, a Colnago Master w/Super Record and Zipp 404's.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

junior1210 said:


> I understand where you're coming from, and to a certain extent will agree, but there are some points I have to disagree with you;
> 1) The Nashbar carbon frame bike selling for $1000 is nice (there's a guy lives close that has one), but it's not on the same level as something like my LBS owner's Parlee. Even if I couldn't tell you what the differences are, even I can tell that they are on different levels, and not just cost.
> 2) While expensive bikes may not be strictly necessary for the basic activity of cycling in general, someone who rides 6,000 miles a year will get far more enjoyment on a higher level bike than someone like me, who might do 1800-2500 miles a year. So the same bike that would be bragging rights for me, may well be a true boon to a much more hardcore rider.
> 3)While the Schwinn Slicker was kinda nice (was going to buy one until they sold out of my size on Nashbar), Brand new it never sold for less than $425, and the 2014 is more like $725. 2014 also saw a downgrade to Deore and Alivio and a flat bar, so not much of a deal anymore.
> 4) Watches aren't a valid comparison as if you just need a timepiece, you can get a digital at anywhere for $5-10. I buy Timex as well 'cause I like analog watches and Timex work for me. Thing is those who buy Rolex aren't buying timepieces, they're buying fashion accessories, status symbols, and a portable, negotiable investment, as well as a possible family heirloom. Anybody can derive gains from a Rolex (no matter how they acquire one), but no one except a consistent, diligent cyclist will get any kind of gain from, say, a Colnago Master w/Super Record and Zipp 404's.


Well said.

A further comment about gain: when in love, the rider rises to the occasion upon buying a top of the line bike. The bike encourages him to ride more, if for no other reason than to discover the capabilities of the bike. He gets fitter, becomes a better rider, and receives greater rewards. IOW, choose the quality level that matches your love and commitment to riding. I'd guess most do that anyway. 

Upon acquiring that old DeRosa I love to brag about, I was so thrilled at what it could do the previous mid-priced Puch could not (stay stiff on a climb!), I jumped from 3000 miles a year to 10,000. I got fitter and entered some races, just to see how far I could take my enthusiasm for this wonderful piece of equipment.

Reading this thread is encouraging, however, that nobody has to pay more than 5000. for a bike that will perform as well as a 10,000. one.


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