# What supplements do you racers use?



## jd7707 (Dec 18, 2010)

I am a second year Cat 4 racer and I am curious what you guys take supplementwise. I am looking for that extra boost when it comes to hard extended efforts. Any input would be appreciated, thanks!


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

After any half way intense training I down some recoverite within 20 minutes. Sometimes this means packing a cooler with a spare premixed bottle to a ride our race.
Also, in all seriousness, after real intense rides our races nothing eases muscle soreness like weed. I never touched the stuff until I started racing. My buddy it's a huge pot head and kept suggesting it for recovery. I thought the medical marijuana thing was bogus, until I tried it. It relaxes my muscles and I sleep like a baby. Give it a shot.
I drink water on rides, unless I'm bringing two bottles.then one bottle is nuun. Hammer gels on the bike.
I still don't really have a pre ride supplement. So much of those products seem like marketing hype. But I'm also interested if anyone on rbr has had any luck with pre ride supplementation.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

> I am looking for that extra boost when it comes to hard extended efforts

Unfortunately, that's not what nutritional supplements do. What you're describing are PEDs (performance enhancing drugs).

Eat a balanced diet and eat enough while on the bike and you should be fine. You can experiment with caffeine, but it seems to be more ritual than science for most people.

Some nutritional deficiencies can sap your strength, but short of compensating for an actual deficiency nutritional supplements will not make you fast.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

None you don't need them. Eat a balanced diet and try and get enough sleep.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I think Andrew Tilin's book will make an interesting read when it comes out. He was also racing cat 4 as I recall.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Used to use protein supplements after workouts, but other than eating something with a little more protein, I seem to get about the same benefit. Most protein supplements would either give me gas or general indigestion. 



ukbloke said:


> I think Andrew Tilin's book will make an interesting read when it comes out. He was also racing cat 4 as I recall.


As far as I know, Cat 4 doping isn't nearly as big as the author would like us to believe. In another thread, it was pointed out that he most likely doped so he could write this damn book.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Used to use protein supplements after workouts, but other than eating something with a little more protein, I seem to get about the same benefit. Most protein supplements would either give me gas or general indigestion.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know, Cat 4 doping isn't nearly as big as the author would like us to believe. In another thread, it was pointed out that he most likely doped so he could write this damn book.


Actually no "most likely" invovled when he failed to find any dopers to write about he started doping himself so he could write the book. Hes documenting nothing except his own contrived cheating. I sincerly hope no one buys this book as it only rewards someone who has done nothing to "clean" cycling up or expose real issues he has only made the sport look worse.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> Actually no "most likely" invovled when he failed to find any dopers to write about he started doping himself so he could write the book. Hes documenting nothing except his own contrived cheating. I sincerly hope no one buys this book as it only rewards someone who has done nothing to "clean" cycling up or expose real issues he has only made the sport look worse.


Fair enough.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

jd7707 said:


> I am a second year Cat 4 racer and I am curious what you guys take supplementwise. I am looking for that extra boost when it comes to hard extended efforts. Any input would be appreciated, thanks!


EPO works great.


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## jd7707 (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks guys, thats what i figured. Just eat healthy and get sleep but was just curious. 

@Tommyrhodes- I think ill pass on that smoking weed thing you suggested. I see the product of that everyday on the offramps of the expressways i go by. They hold a cardboard sign begging for my money!


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## eddya (Aug 7, 2009)

I find putting my legs up during the evenings really helps. Even after just 10 minutes, it makes my legs feel a lot lighter.

The suggestion of smoking weed, or smoking anything for that matter is just laughable. Your lungs don't recover well from that at all!


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Coenzyme Q10


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

jd7707 said:


> Thanks guys, thats what i figured. Just eat healthy and get sleep but was just curious.
> 
> @Tommyrhodes- I think ill pass on that smoking weed thing you suggested. I see the product of that everyday on the offramps of the expressways i go by. They hold a cardboard sign begging for my money!



Yea. They are begging for money because of their weed addiction lol.


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## GDeAngelo (Aug 9, 2009)

The only thing I ever take are sport legs. I don't always take them. maybe on a hill ride or rides over 50miles at a high tempo. Other than that, eat right fuel during ride right.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Anyone hop in the hot-tub or bath after a race or hard ride?


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## johnny dollar (Jul 21, 2010)

That weed suggestion isn't just from a stoned mind. 

Marijuana is a vasodilator, allowing more oxygen and nutrients to flow to muscles and expunge waste. It decreases the volume the heart has to pump, and thus heartrate. People take nitric oxide as a pre- and post-workout supplement exactly for its vasodilating effect.

Inhaling combusted plant matter, OTOH, certainly won't help your lungs, but that's what vaporizers and edibles are for. 

And if you're on an expressway exit ramp begging for pocket change, I'm willing to bet you've a lot more pressing issues to deal with than just the devil's weed.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

johnny dollar said:


> That weed suggestion isn't just from a stoned mind.
> 
> Marijuana is a vasodilator, allowing more oxygen and nutrients to flow to muscles and expunge waste. It decreases the volume the heart has to pump, and thus heartrate. People take nitric oxide as a pre- and post-workout supplement exactly for its vasodilating effect.
> 
> ...


I've known a few Cat 1 racers who were huge potheads. Some would smoke pre-race.


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## johnny dollar (Jul 21, 2010)

*Smoke*


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

How many of you actually look to the scientific literature before you start taking supplements which you believe will work, independant of their actual efficacy. 

Just saying.

If anyone has any links to peer reviewed studies which show that the L-arginine supplements 'work' to increase vasodilation, I would appreciate them.

And, smoking pot for a 'performance' advantage (actual or perceived) is doping. Again, just saying.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Probably the best natural boosts is a few cups of strong french press coffee 30 minutes before a race. 

As for weed, there's always arguments by the community of smokers that justify it's use. So while a reduction in lung capacity and FEV1 might not be seen in everyone, I'd be surprised if some users didn't see a reduction in their numbers when using a peak flow meter. And I'd be very surprised if weed smokers didn't have more mucous production in their airways which would cause a reduction in lung capacity. So relaxing the smooth muscles that surround the airways might free up the airway, but overtime the mucous production is going to reduce lung capacity.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Coffee and beer.


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## johnny dollar (Jul 21, 2010)

sdeeer said:


> If anyone has any links to peer reviewed studies which show that the L-arginine supplements 'work' to increase vasodilation, I would appreciate them.


for Glycocarn there are two studies:
1. Bloomer RJ, Tschume LC, Smith WA: Glycine propionyl-L-carnitine modulates lipid peroxidation and nitric oxide in human subjects. Int J Vitam Nutr Res; 79(3): 131-141, 2009

2. Bloomer RJ, Smith WA, Fisher-Wellman KH. Glycine propionyl-L-carnitine increases plasma nitrate/nitrite in resistance trained men. J Int Soc Sports Nutr; 4(1): 22, 2007



sdeeer said:


> And, smoking pot for a 'performance' advantage (actual or perceived) is doping. Again, just saying.


Don't discount caffeine and alcohol, either!


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Mix the coffee with some ephedrine such as primatene mist tabs and that will give you boost. 

Of course it will also cause a spike in blood pressure and some hellish headaches if you abuse it. I use to use the stuff and it's like kicking in the nitro, but my blood pressure would stay around 160/110 for hours and I decided to stop using it. It also put my metabolism into overdrive and allowed me to get cut up with little effort.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Try Optygen HP. A couple of my teammates recommended it to me so I followed their lead. It's not cheap (about $60 on Amazon for a one-month supply), but after taking it daily for 3 weeks I've felt a noticeable improvement in my ability to go "deeper" into a hard effort. I was skeptical over a month ago, but now I just started my second month using it. Make no mistake, you still have to train hard while using this stuff.

I've tried other stuff out there (e.g., EP-NO, iron supplements) and haven't felt anything.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> Coffee and beer.


I'll buy that for a dollar!!!!


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> I've known a few Cat 1 racers who were huge potheads. Some would smoke pre-race.


So you've know some dopers,... literally its on the banned list.


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

Ephedrine sucks. If your gonna dope and want to cut use clen. Out kills your vo2 max though. But other then that the side effects are minimal.
That being said. I'll never understand why a cyclist at any level would run a cut stack.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

tommyrhodes said:


> Ephedrine sucks. If your gonna dope and want to cut use clen. Out kills your vo2 max though. But other then that the side effects are minimal.
> That being said. I'll never understand why a cyclist at any level would run a cut stack.


Clen only works for a short while though and is a helluva lot more dangerous at higher levels.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> So far I have seen two recommendations for banned products in this thread, Weed and ephedrine. While neither are EPO or blood doping I find the whole "lets take a bunch of pills and powders" mind set disturbing, its, IMO, without a doubt the start of the whole "this is what is required to compete" mindset which is (again - IMO) is part of what leads to doping. Hell some of the things people are hocking out their make claims to altering you blood chemisty (usually BS) which is in the spririt of the rules doping.
> 
> Im not calling anyone here a cheater but I refuse to take any of that crap because I want to be the one making the improvements not some tub of powder.


Just for the record all my posts are very tongue in cheek. I'd never recommend any banned substance for cycling and I really don't think weed is a PED.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

So far I have seen two recommendations for banned products in this thread, Weed and ephedrine. While neither are EPO or blood doping I find the whole "lets take a bunch of pills and powders" mind set disturbing, its, IMO, without a doubt the start of the whole "this is what is required to compete" mindset which is (again - IMO) is part of what leads to doping. Hell some of the things people are hocking out their make claims to altering you blood chemisty (usually BS) which is in the spririt of the rules doping.

Im not calling anyone here a cheater but I refuse to take any of that crap because I want to be the one making the improvements not some tub of powder.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Just for the record all my posts are very tongue in cheek. I'd never recommend any banned substance for cycling and I really don't think weed is a PED.



Guess I should clarify I don't think anyone here is recommending doping.

Weed may not be a PED but its on the prohibted list, it will get you banned. No I don't think we shoudl have a witch hunt on weed smokers but if its ok to voilate that rule then how about this other one and the next one etc.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I'm not supporting doping either. However the guys I've raced against over the years are popping pills and potions left and right and have been for many years. I've seen a lot of pill poppin in the parking lots before the races and those weren't nuun tabs they were sucking down. 

You'd have to be pretty naive to think that even the lowly cat5 guys are going to take the moral high ground. I'll admit I use to get cranked as much as possible before a race, hitting inhalers, caffeine, ephidrine and anything else that would amp me up before the race.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

spade2you said:


> I'll buy that for a dollar!!!!


Hell, if you're ever in the neighborhood, I'll crack a sixer and make you a pot for nothing.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

heathb said:


> I'm not supporting doping either. However the guys I've raced against over the years are popping pills and potions left and right and have been for many years. I've seen a lot of pill poppin in the parking lots before the races and those weren't nuun tabs they were sucking down.
> 
> You'd have to be pretty naive to think that even the lowly cat5 guys are going to take the moral high ground. I'll admit I use to get cranked as much as possible before a race, hitting inhalers, caffeine, ephidrine and anything else that would amp me up before the race.


Im sorry are you are in the know and wise because you use to "crank up" before your race and Im some gullible fool? Im not naive (well awear people cheat), I just refuse to use any of that crap even tho others might be. I don't care what kind of justification people use i.e. they are using it so I have to is BS in my book. 

I started cycling because I wanted to see how far I could push myself and because I thought I was fun. At 41 I made it to cat 2 and am compedative on the track and in the masters races. I have never used any banned product and never taken suppliments except for a few months where I took Beta Arginine which I stopped taking because it felt like doping to me and because I do this for fun and don't need to complicate it any more than it already is (power meters fancy bikes etc make this seem like a hell of alot more trouble than its worth at times).

I find it kinda of sad that people are constantly look for a pill or powder to make them faster. At some point it comes down to this, your as fast as you are and there is always someone faster trying to find a chemical way out of that is exactly what doping is. You may not be using a banned product but don't fool yourself its the same damn idea.

I find it utter silly the people with racks of suppliments they take all the time for "perfomance enhancement" get all riled up and rail aginst some doper getting popped in the pro ranks.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> Hell, if you're ever in the neighborhood, I'll crack a sixer and make you a pot for nothing.


Much obliged, but I was making a Robocop joke. LOL, I'd tap a keg or crack a bottle of homebrew if you're in my neck of the woods, as well.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

32and3cross said:


> Im sorry are you are in the know and wise because you use to "crank up" before your race and Im some gullible fool? Im not naive (well awear people cheat), I just refuse to use any of that crap even tho others might be. I don't care what kind of justification people use i.e. they are using it so I have to is BS in my book.
> 
> I started cycling because I wanted to see how far I could push myself and because I thought I was fun. At 41 I made it to cat 2 and am compedative on the track and in the masters races. I have never used any banned product and never taken suppliments except for a few months where I took Beta Arginine which I stopped taking because it felt like doping to me and because I do this for fun and don't need to complicate it any more than it already is (power meters fancy bikes etc make this seem like a hell of alot more trouble than its worth at times).


Suppliments imo are worthless. Even the guys selling them will admit that. 

However those drugs that cause you to bounce off the walls, jump up and down with glee, like say meth are going to do things for that one hour crit that no amount of silly nutritional supplement will. 

Some people like to get high. In the past I've seen teams pass around their 5th of whiskey as casual as you like. Every race scene is different, some are more laid back and allow just about anything to happen short of hitting a crack pipe out in the open.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

heathb said:


> Suppliments imo are worthless. Even the guys selling them will admit that.
> 
> However those drugs that cause you to bounce off the walls, jump up and down with glee, like say meth are going to do things for that one hour crit that no amount of silly nutritional supplement will.
> 
> Some people like to get high. In the past I've seen teams pass around their 5th of whiskey as casual as you like. Every race scene is different, some are more laid back and allow just about anything to happen short of hitting a crack pipe out in the open.


Where in Christ's name do you race? I haven't been all around the world, but I've never heard of anyone taking meth before a crit. That stuff can dehydrate you quickly.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

heathb said:


> Suppliments imo are worthless. Even the guys selling them will admit that.
> 
> However those drugs that cause you to bounce off the walls, jump up and down with glee, like say meth are going to do things for that one hour crit that no amount of silly nutritional supplement will.
> 
> Some people like to get high. In the past I've seen teams pass around their 5th of whiskey as casual as you like. Every race scene is different, some are more laid back and allow just about anything to happen short of hitting a crack pipe out in the open.



Ok once again, regarding sitmulants, I did not say they didn't work just they alot of them are illegal. Sorry IMO its not about what people "allow" its suppose to be about fair play. Cranking up with something like ephedira before a race is cheating no if and or but about it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

heathb said:


> You'd have to be pretty naive to think that even the lowly cat5 guys are going to take the moral high ground. I'll admit I use to get cranked as much as possible before a race, hitting inhalers, caffeine, ephidrine and anything else that would amp me up before the race.


Granted, you live in an area where riders are tweaking before crits, I don't think doping is as widespread as you like to think. At best, if someone who _thinks_ they need to dope in Cat 5 is probably way off the back.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

spade2you said:


> Granted, you live in an area where riders are tweaking before crits, I don't think doping is as widespread as you like to think. At best, if someone who _thinks_ they need to dope in Cat 5 is probably way off the back.



What were racers using before EPO. How much stimulants were guys that raced against Merckx using and how much did he use himself.

I don't buy the argument that people use this stuff because they're slow, seen too many of the winners and the best teams getting loaded over the years.

What leads someone like a Contador to use Clen even though he's clearly got way more natural talent then everyone else.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

heathb said:


> What were racers using before EPO. How much stimulants were guys that raced against Merckx using and how much did he use himself.
> 
> I don't buy the argument that people use this stuff because they're slow, seen too many of the winners and the best teams getting loaded over the years.
> 
> What leads someone like a Contador to use Clen even though he's clearly got more natural talent then everyone else.


I'm not talking about Contador, Merckx, et al. You said you've seen riders use meth before a race, among many other things. Where? ....unless you're making it up. About a dozen races a year for a few years and I've yet to see anything like what you've been describing.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

spade2you said:


> I'm not talking about Contador, Merckx, et al. You said you've seen riders use meth before a race, among many other things. Where? ....unless you're making it up. About a dozen races a year for a few years and I've yet to see anything like what you've been describing.


How are going to see it. Snorting meth takes about 5 seconds to roll up a dollar bill, snort and chase it down with a drink to help with the post nasal drip. 

Wait 20 minutes and start your race.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

heathb said:


> How are going to see it. Snorting meth takes about 5 seconds to roll up a dollar bill, snort and chase it down with a drink to help with the post nasal drip.
> 
> Wait 20 minutes and start your race.


...and where exactly is this happening to you knowing that "all sorts of riders" are doing this? Kinda sounds like a fish story until further info is provided. You are saying that riders do this before small scale racing.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

spade2you said:


> ...and where exactly is this happening to you knowing that "all sorts of riders" are doing this? Kinda sounds like a fish story until further info is provided. You are saying that riders do this before small scale racing.


Imagine a Pantani rolling up to your race. You think he wouldn't take a snort?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

heathb said:


> Imagine a Pantani rolling up to your race. You think he wouldn't take a snort?


You seem to be tapdancing around my question. WHERE is this happening? Pantani is dead, so if he rolls up to my race, he can snort anything he wants, but hopefully does not try to eat my brains. 

Your credibility is dwindling. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get ready for a group ride, I had better grab my $20k Cervelo with Di2 and an extra helping of EPO.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

johnny dollar said:


> for Glycocarn there are two studies:
> 1. Bloomer RJ, Tschume LC, Smith WA: Glycine propionyl-L-carnitine modulates lipid peroxidation and nitric oxide in human subjects. Int J Vitam Nutr Res; 79(3): 131-141, 2009
> 
> 2. Bloomer RJ, Smith WA, Fisher-Wellman KH. Glycine propionyl-L-carnitine increases plasma nitrate/nitrite in resistance trained men. J Int Soc Sports Nutr; 4(1): 22, 2007
> ...


Those studies support the claim that the supplement increases NO. But are there studies with performance as the primary outcome measure? Increasing blood flow to the exercising tissue can increase performance, but does it in the real world, in healthy, training endurance athletes? 

If blood flow to the tissue is the limiting factor, then an increase in blood flow will increase performance. But the abiltiy of the muslce to do work at a given intensity is dependant on multiple factors.


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Clen only works for a short while though and is a helluva lot more dangerous at higher levels.


The highest I've dosed on clen was 180 mcgs. To be truly high dose with that stuff you've got to be over 200. So I cannot speak for high doses. But I never had any serious issues. Alot of shaking, some cramping if I was not watching my taurine and potassium intake.I weighed about 35 pounds more at the time. 
I don't know a single bodybuilder that was not running clen, usually stacked with other far nastier stuff like t3. This was long before I started biking though. 
What confuses me is that with the effect clen has on your vo2 max contador would be pretty crazy to take it. I couldn't walk on a treadmill with out dying. Plus, it stays in your system for a long time, especially in comparison to other thermogenics. 

With all this being said.please don't think I'm suggesting you invest in any peds. I've tried all kinds of crazy **** in gyms. I promise your wasting your time and money with any of it as an amateur. Shy of epo (despite being available at any serious meathead gym, it's still super deadly and very expensive) and blood doping (crazy) the benefits are simply not worth the cash, not to mention the humiliation of being caught.

Cycling gets a bad wrap. Trust me. This sport is far cleaner than most. I know guys on beer league softball teams on hgh lol. How lame it's that?


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

spade2you said:


> You seem to be tapdancing around my question. WHERE is this happening? Pantani is dead, so if he rolls up to my race, he can snort anything he wants, but hopefully does not try to eat my brains.
> 
> Your credibility is dwindling. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get ready for a group ride, I had better grab my $20k Cervelo with Di2 and an extra helping of EPO.


Alright spade I was yanking your chain about guys taking a snort of meth before the big race.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

heathb said:


> What were racers using before EPO. How much stimulants were guys that raced against Merckx using and how much did he use himself.[sic]


And to what effect? My understanding is that run-of-the-mill stimulants make you think you're faster than you are, that EPO was the first widespread PED that actually worked for endurance athletes.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

JohnStonebarger said:


> And to what effect? My understanding is that run-of-the-mill stimulants make you think you're faster than you are, that EPO was the first widespread PED that actually worked for endurance athletes.


Stimulants will more or less make you more aggressive and ignore some of your pain, so you might be able to squeeze out a little more effort, but not without consequence. The body will pay for that effort sooner or later and amphetamines are known to dehydrate and mess with the heart.

Roids can add a little strength.

EPO wasn't the first PED to increase performance. Blood transfusions were around before it, but require a lot effort and have risks and side effects. When EPO came along, you got almost all of the benefits with hardly any of the storage or transfusion related side effects.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

heathb said:


> Alright spade I was yanking your chain about guys taking a snort of meth before the big race.


Do us a favor and don't make up crap against us racers. I can't speak for all areas, but you'd be hard pressed to find any doping in my area.


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