# Linseed oil and spoke nipples



## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Building my first wheel from scratch (that sound you hear is me timidly patting myself on the back). Got the spokes all laced thanks to Zinn's book. Looks darned sharp if I say so myself.

Anyway, it is making this AWFUL noise as I tighten the nipples towards proper tension (I have barely started, so I know they're not too tight). I have read in a couple of places to use linseed oil (derived from flax) where the nipple exits the rim (on the hub side). However, I cannot find it in local hardware stores.

I was wondering if any other product(s) serves this purpose (canola oil???) or should I buy it on the net ($3.79) and end up paying shipping cost ($7.50) through the nipples, I mean nose?


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## Steve-O (Jan 28, 2004)

*Options*



CoachRob said:


> Building my first wheel from scratch (that sound you hear is me timidly patting myself on the back). Got the spokes all laced thanks to Zinn's book. Looks darned sharp if I say so myself.
> 
> Anyway, it is making this AWFUL noise as I tighten the nipples towards proper tension (I have barely started, so I know they're not too tight). I have read in a couple of places to use linseed oil (derived from flax) where the nipple exits the rim (on the hub side). However, I cannot find it in local hardware stores.
> 
> I was wondering if any other product(s) serves this purpose (canola oil???) or should I buy it on the net ($3.79) and end up paying shipping cost ($7.50) through the nipples, I mean nose?


Hey Rob,

Linseed oil's been a long standing, tried and true solution for lubing the nipple threads. People like to use it because it hardens over time thus keeping the spokes from loosening (kinda like low grade LockTite). 

Based on advice from Mike T. over on the wheelbuilding forum at MTBr I started building wheels using anti-sieze compound instead of Spoke Prep or linseed oil. The main difference with anti-sieze is that it ALLOWS the nipples to turn over time (unlike thread locker lubes). Why would I want to do this?

Wheels that are well tensioned should not loosen up over time no matter what lube is used. The truth of the matter is that when you're just starting out, you don't build perfect wheels. Anti-sieze lets you go back and easily correct your mistakes. 

Here's my last build... Notice the silver blob of Permatex Anti Sieze in the picts! 5k miles and still going strong...

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=1119

Steve


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Steve-O said:


> Hey Rob,
> 
> Linseed oil's been a long standing, tried and true solution for lubing the nipple threads. People like to use it because it hardens over time thus keeping the spokes from loosening (kinda like low grade LockTite).
> 
> ...


Thanks. The wheels look GREAT. I especially like the 2x/3x rear. I'm sticking with 3x since it's the first. I'm using Mavic OpenPro with Ultegra hubs and DT Revolution 14/17/14 DB Spokes. This was based on responses to a post on this forum I made a few weeks ago. I tried to find Aerohead rims at Performance and Nashbar, but no luck. So, I'm going with the OpenPro, even though I know they tend to click.

Why did you use a Fusion rim rear, Aerohead front?

Wheelsmith makes a nipple prep that I am using. I may switch to antiseize, or use linseed oil which I found at an ART shop (who'd have thunk it!).


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## Steve-O (Jan 28, 2004)

*Feedback*



CoachRob said:


> Thanks. The wheels look GREAT. I especially like the 2x/3x rear. I'm sticking with 3x since it's the first. I'm using Mavic OpenPro with Ultegra hubs and DT Revolution 14/17/14 DB Spokes. This was based on responses to a post on this forum I made a few weeks ago. I tried to find Aerohead rims at Performance and Nashbar, but no luck. So, I'm going with the OpenPro, even though I know they tend to click.
> 
> Why did you use a Fusion rim rear, Aerohead front?
> 
> Wheelsmith makes a nipple prep that I am using. I may switch to antiseize, or use linseed oil which I found at an ART shop (who'd have thunk it!).


Hey Rob... A good source for wheelbuilding stuff is Mike Garcia at OddsandEndos. Mike also is the distributor for Speedcific parts...

http://www.oddsandendos.com/
http://www.speedcific.com/

I ordered my rims and spokes through him at a VERY good price. He's a well known wheelbuilder who usually posts as Bianchi4me here or on MTBr. If you try and get in touch with him then call the 800 number...

As for the build, I've used Fusions, Aeroheads, and Deep-V's for various builds in the past. The Aeroheads are good rims but a little light for my 190 lb. body. I'd had good luck with Fusions for a cyclocross wheelset so I thought I would go with a Fusion in the rear where the rim sees a little more abuse. The Aerohead saves a little weight in the front.

Which brings to mind the very reason why I like building my own wheels. I couldn't buy a wheelset like the ones I built on my own


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*Linseed for prepping spokes.*

But it sounds like your issue is friction between the rim eyelet and the outside of the nipple. I just shoot a tiny bit of Boeshield at the nipple/eyelet junction. It soaks in and the noise goes away along with a lot of the resistance to further tightening. WD-40 or Triflo would probably do the trick too.


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## ottodog (Mar 26, 2004)

I use Tri-flo. Works great.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

*Where to buy?*



ottodog said:


> I use Tri-flo. Works great.


Where do you buy Tri-Flo? Is it a spray or liquid? Any help would be great.

Thanks


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*Spray.*

Pretty commonly available at bike, sporting goods, automotive and hardware stores.

I guess it is actually called Tri-Flow: <a href="http://www.triflowlubricants.com/" target="_blank">http://www.triflowlubricants.com</a>


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

Nothing wrong with using the nipple prep, linseed oil, or even blue Licktight on the threads. You can use any light oil on the interface between the nipples and the eyelets to reduce friction. Two different issues, two different solutions.

~Al


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*I repeat, grease*

A well built wheel will not loosen regardless of what is on the spoke threads. However, putting grease on the spoke threads and the shoulders of the nipples (where the nipple contacts the rim or ferrule). This allows for more uniform and higher tension, minimzes spoke windup, and mostly prevents oxidation that will cause difficulties later on. Much as it might pain you, I would suggest that you take the thing apart and grease things. You'll bet a better build and have a longer-lasting and lower maintenance wheel. It's worth it. 

If your spokes are making noise when there is not much tension on them, I have to ask whether you have the right size nipples for the spokes. You should be able to easily thread a nipple on a spoke by hand. If you get resistance when doing this, your spokes and nipples are mis-matched.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> A well built wheel will not loosen regardless of what is on the spoke threads. However, putting grease on the spoke threads and the shoulders of the nipples (where the nipple contacts the rim or ferrule). This allows for more uniform and higher tension, minimzes spoke windup, and mostly prevents oxidation that will cause difficulties later on. Much as it might pain you, I would suggest that you take the thing apart and grease things. You'll bet a better build and have a longer-lasting and lower maintenance wheel. It's worth it.
> 
> If your spokes are making noise when there is not much tension on them, I have to ask whether you have the right size nipples for the spokes. You should be able to easily thread a nipple on a spoke by hand. If you get resistance when doing this, your spokes and nipples are mis-matched.


I didn't mind taking it apart. It was fun. I found linseed oil and it went much easier. The wheel came out pretty darned good. Now the rear wheel next. I'm not sure how much the tension should differ between the drive and non-drive sides, but I'll find out from the Park web site (hopefully!). I play on using 3x on both sides, as I did with the front wheel, since this is my first build and radial or 2x makes it more complicated.


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## jw25 (Feb 23, 2004)

CoachRob said:


> I didn't mind taking it apart. It was fun. I found linseed oil and it went much easier. The wheel came out pretty darned good. Now the rear wheel next. I'm not sure how much the tension should differ between the drive and non-drive sides, but I'll find out from the Park web site (hopefully!). I play on using 3x on both sides, as I did with the front wheel, since this is my first build and radial or 2x makes it more complicated.


Well, with rear wheels, the tension to watch is the right (drive) side. The left side will be looser, due to dish, and this is fine. The key to a good rear build is getting the drive spokes up to proper tension. 
Due to the dish, and the imbalance in tension between the flanges, some think that the non-drive spokes don't share in torque-transfer, putting more stress on the drive spokes, and leading to earlier failure. 
I can't confirm or deny this, but it makes some sense. Also, balancing the tensions between the flanges should make the wheel less prone to spokes loosening (I subscribe to the belief that properly tensioned wheels should not have nipples coming loose, and have yet to use a threadlocker on any wheel).
To help balance the tension, I like to either drop a crossing or two on the non-drive side (so 1x non, 3x drive) with the same spokes, or else use lighter spokes on the non-drive flange. While the tensions won't match, they'll be closer, and more of the workload can be shared by the non-drive spokes. This is the reasoning behind the radial/3x rear wheels, but I prefer 1x for some reason. I don't think it makes too much difference, and radial lacing is dead-easy.
Building a wheel with 2 different spoke patterns isn't hard at all, since each flange gets built on its own, at least the way I do it. You just have to remember how many spoke holes to count over from vertical.

Congratulations on the first build - fun, isn't it? The only problem is, hand-built wheels last so long, you run out of opportunities to build more after a while. You start looking for excuses to lace up one more set - climbing wheels, sprinting wheels, crit wheels, cross wheels, training wheels, aero wheels, all-rounders, tubulars (just for fun), and on and on.

Jon


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

jw25 said:


> To help balance the tension, I like to either drop a crossing or two on the non-drive side (so 1x non, 3x drive) with the same spokes, or else use lighter spokes on the non-drive flange. While the tensions won't match, they'll be closer, and more of the workload can be shared by the non-drive spokes. This is the reasoning behind the radial/3x rear wheels, but I prefer 1x for some reason. I don't think it makes too much difference, and radial lacing is dead-easy.
> Building a wheel with 2 different spoke patterns isn't hard at all, since each flange gets built on its own, at least the way I do it. You just have to remember how many spoke holes to count over from vertical.
> Jon


To do the 3x, I put the first spoke outside in and attach it to the rim (that places the elbows on the INTSIDE of the flange). The second set (which are the trailing spokes, or the ones that tighten when the crank pulls the chain and turns the wheel) I have the elbows on the OUTSIDE for lateral strength. In the 3x pattern, I count five flange holes over (the 6th flange hle), then cross it over the spokes in the 5th and 3rd flange holes, and UNDER the spoke in the 1st flange hole (this is from Zinn). 

To do 2x lacing, do I simply put the 2nd set in the 4th hole (three holes over?) and cross over the spoke in the 3rd hole and UNDER the spoke in the 1st hole?

It's too late for this wheelset, but I'd like to know for the future. Also, I guess I would need shorter spokes for 2x or 1x, and even shorter spokes for radial lacing.

Is there a chart (on-line or elsewhere) that tells you how much tension is appropriate for a particular lacing pattern? Rim? Spoke set?


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## Steve-O (Jan 28, 2004)

*Here's a pict*



CoachRob said:


> To do the 3x, I put the first spoke outside in and attach it to the rim (that places the elbows on the INTSIDE of the flange). The second set (which are the trailing spokes, or the ones that tighten when the crank pulls the chain and turns the wheel) I have the elbows on the OUTSIDE for lateral strength. In the 3x pattern, I count five flange holes over (the 6th flange hle), then cross it over the spokes in the 5th and 3rd flange holes, and UNDER the spoke in the 1st flange hole (this is from Zinn).
> 
> To do 2x lacing, do I simply put the 2nd set in the 4th hole (three holes over?) and cross over the spoke in the 3rd hole and UNDER the spoke in the 1st hole?
> 
> ...


Hey Rob... Here's a pict that should help...

<img src=https://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/build6.jpg>

Sometimes it's helpful to refer to another pre-built wheel to assure that the lacing pattern is correct.

As for the tension for different rim and spoke combos... Park Tools has some good guidelines on their website...

https://www.parktool.com/repair_help/tm_1.shtml

For the wheels I have built I have not used a tensiometer and simply went by feel and plucking thespokes. A Park TM-1 could be in my future though...


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## ottodog (Mar 26, 2004)

CoachRob said:


> Is there a chart (on-line or elsewhere) that tells you how much tension is appropriate for a particular lacing pattern? Rim? Spoke set?


http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#length Go to "Spoke length Calculators" there you'll find some links. DT Swiss also has one on there main page.

Oops, thought you asked about spoke length.

I normally shoot for about 100Kgf, give or take. When the nipples start to get hard to turn, or the spokes start winding up bad (of course bladed spokes always wind up bad), you're probably pretty close.


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## CoachRob (Sep 14, 2004)

Steve-O said:


> Hey Rob... Here's a pict that should help...
> 
> <img src=https://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/build6.jpg>
> 
> ...


That's exactly what i thought. Thanks so much for taking the time to make a photo. The 2x lace is the fourth flange hole hole crossing over the 3rd hole spoke, and under the 1st hole spoke as I figured.

Went to the LBS with my TM-1 and got some readings from their 3x lacers on the floor (and got some pretty strange looks, I might add). 25 on the drive-, about 18 on then non-drive side (not sure of the units, but so long as I use the TM-1, the units across wheels doesn't matter (although I'll know them in the future for next wheel build). Surprisingly (???) that is essentiallly what I ended up with.

Even the blind squirrel finds a nut now and again, I guess.


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## ottodog (Mar 26, 2004)

CoachRob said:


> (not sure of the units, but so long as I use the TM-1, the units across wheels doesn't matter (although I'll know them in the future for next wheel build).


Your TM-1 should have come with a spoke guage, and conversion chart. Every spoke guage will read differently. Once you know the guage of the spoke, you use the reading on the TM-1, and convert it to an actual measurement (Kgf). So the only way you can compare two wheels is if they have the same guage spokes. Otherwise you need to convert the reading into something meaningful.


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