# hydraulic rim brakes: why?



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Seriously... yes I am a retro-grouch so please use small words and explain how / why these are better than cable actuated?

Tour Tech: Mark Cavendish?s SRAM HydroR hydraulic rim brakes


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

SRAM Red 22 Hydraulic Rim Brake Road Groupset - First Ride - BikeRadar


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

Quote:
It’s when the road starts to fall, and the speed starts to rise that the HRR (Hydraulic Road Rim) really starts to impress. With the lightest of touches, a single finger is more than enough to scrub masses of speed. As our confidence grew we found ourselves leaving it later and later to slow our velocity on entry to a corner and make significant improvements in overall speed. For example, the previous day's ride on mechanical brakes gave a max speed on the same descent of 42.8mph. On the hydraulic set-up we clocked 47.8mph.

Sounds pretty impressive.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Creakyknees said:


> Seriously... yes I am a retro-grouch so please use small words and explain how / why these are better than cable actuated?


How about pictures instead of words?

SRAM Hydro R Hydraulic Road Rim, Disc Brakes Unveiled ? Details & First Rides!









Looks to be about a 15-20% increase in brake force with equivalent lever force (Mech Rim vs Hyd Rim). That is "better". Not sure how significant it is. Perhaps if you're decending mountains frequently.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I would like to see repeated runs with hydro rim and mechanical rim brakes.

1 run just means a placebo effect. Could be that the reviewer was taking it easy while on the mechanical, and then decided to go aggressive on the hydro. Lots of time in these product reviews we see this a lot from the reviewer.

I know the Malibu trail the reviewer is talking about, and I hit 45+ mph easily on mechanical rim brakes, and I'm only 130 lbs. My top speed is limited by my weight more than anything, not by braking (because there are times my braking can be agressive that the rear is just lifting from the tarmac; I won't even touch the rear brake in fear of a rear slide)



Randy99CL said:


> Quote:
> It’s when the road starts to fall, and the speed starts to rise that the HRR (Hydraulic Road Rim) really starts to impress. With the lightest of touches, a single finger is more than enough to scrub masses of speed. As our confidence grew we found ourselves leaving it later and later to slow our velocity on entry to a corner and make significant improvements in overall speed. For example, the previous day's ride on mechanical brakes gave a max speed on the same descent of 42.8mph. On the hydraulic set-up we clocked 47.8mph.
> 
> Sounds pretty impressive.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> Seriously... yes I am a retro-grouch so please use small words and explain how / why these are better than cable actuated?


It's for the same reasons that many mountain bike riders embraced Magura HS series hydraulic rim brakes back in the mid to late '90s (pre hydraulic disc brakes) - 


Modulation - the ability to fine-tune the braking power by hand.
Power - yes I know most rim brake are powerful enough for most people but applying the same braking power with lower input (muscle strength) saves energy. Or - more power makes you faster (later braking).
Lack of power transfer contamination - cables get dirty, wear out or break thus lowering braking efficiency. Hydraulics have the same feel from day 1 to day 1001.

I went from mountain bike cable brakes to hydraulic in '98 because two of my riding buddies had them and on an awful riding day (much mud, snow and rain) they still had braking at the end of the day and I didn't. I ordered Magura HS-33 the next day.

Maybe none of the above applies or appeals to you and that's why there will always be cable operated brakes, both rim and disc.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Shimano hydro disc, and their 11spd electronic, will eat Sram's lunch here


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

it's more about available contact patch friction than about power available from the calipers (mechanical or hydro).



tlg said:


> How about pictures instead of words?
> 
> SRAM Hydro R Hydraulic Road Rim, Disc Brakes Unveiled ? Details & First Rides!
> 
> ...


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

I'm holding out for electronic anti-lock brakes. (don't laugh... you know someone's working on it)


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Randy99CL said:


> Sounds pretty impressive.


Sure, if you are one to believe in marketing babble.



tlg said:


> Looks to be about a 15-20% increase in brake force with equivalent lever force (Mech Rim vs Hyd Rim). That is "better". Not sure how significant it is.


It's completely meaningless. Look, people, a brake is a very simple device: It's a lever system that works on the simple principle that a small force on the longer lever creates a larger force on the short one. The absolutely _only _thing that matters is how much travel is required on the hand lever versus how much travel you have on your brake pads. There is absolutely no reason to not have those two values identical for purely mechanical versus hydraulic brakes. If they are identical, the brake force will be identical (assuming identical pads). If you want more brake force, increase the travel at the brake lever, or reduce the travel at the calipers, or do both. That's all there is to it.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I think marketing is taking this 1% niche and tries to apply it to the 99% as it was done with the 11s cogs.
I don't hear much though what these uber brakes do or mean to the forks the 99% like to use.
IMO, the good to come out of this for the 99% is that the 135 OLD rear road hubs are getting closer and closer.


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

tlg said:


> I'm holding out for electronic anti-lock brakes. (don't laugh... you know someone's working on it)


This is an interesting issue. In cars, I believe ABS works by sensing that one wheel is rotating significantly more slowly than the three others.

On a bike, there's only two wheels, and if the front one locks up, bad things can begin to happen pretty quickly (rider potentially thrown over the bars). ABS for a bike seems to be a harder challenge, then. No matter what, it would require electronic control of the brake modulation and a means to rapidly monitor front/rear wheel rotation speeds.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tlg said:


> I'm holding out for electronic anti-lock brakes. (don't laugh... you know someone's working on it)


when it comes to electronics, you do know the most important factor is right?
Top speed data be trasmitted to the NSA. Dude.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> when it comes to electronics, you do know the most important factor is right?
> Top speed data be trasmitted to the NSA. Dude.


Well since you brought it up... I should've added that the electronic brakes will be wireless, thus surely the NSA will monitor our riding.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Because the salesman told us we needed them.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> Shimano hydro disc, and their 11spd electronic, will eat Sram's lunch here


I'm glad someone will eat because for what Shimano charges, you won't have any money for lunch.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

tlg said:


> I'm holding out for electronic anti-lock brakes. (don't laugh... you know someone's working on it)


I has be worked on for mtb as I remember a thread about it a few yrs back. I can't remember the last time I either of my road wheels locked. On the mtb, I consider locking a wheel "bad riding skills" at that moment. Now, of course, drifting doesn't count.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Creakyknees said:


> Seriously... yes I am a retro-grouch so please use small words and explain how / why these are better than cable actuated?
> 
> Tour Tech: Mark Cavendish?s SRAM HydroR hydraulic rim brakes



I won't bore you with numbers, graphs, or pie charts..............

Hydro rim brakes makes it so your hands don't get tired on long decents


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> I won't bore you with numbers, graphs, or pie charts..............
> 
> Hydro rim brakes makes it so your hands don't get tired on long decents


I was just going to say "because they stop you better, and that's a big part of what a brake does."

Some people just need to be left alone with their 6 speed campy, 36 hole wheels, and their downtube shifters.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

masont said:


> I was just going to say "because they stop you better, and that's a big part of what a brake does."


Where did you get the idea that they stop you better? I thought I had explained that there is no reason to expect that this is the case. It is trivial to match any brake performance that a hydraulic brake has with a mechanical brake. *There is no fundamental difference*. If the levers and calipers have the same travel, the two systems will have exactly the same performance, period, end of sentence.

Besides, maybe that's just me, but I am really not interested in a brake that needs just a light touch of my finger to lock the wheel. The other day, on one of our group rides, I hadn't paid attention for a moment, and suddenly realized that I was about to run into the rider in front of me that had slowed down. I tapped my brake just a tad harder than usual, and as a result had my rear wheel lift off. I sure as hell didn't need any more than that kind of "stopping power"...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Pirx said:


> Besides, maybe that's just me, but I am really not interested in a brake that needs just a light touch of my finger to lock the wheel.


You're assuming that hydraulic brakes are always more powerful than mechanical brakes. Hydraulic brakes don't necessarily have to be more powerful than a cable-operated brake and their power is decided by the engineer. But what they do have in spades, over any cable brake, is zero rise in efficiency loss the harder the lever is pulled. The friction of the fluid can be classed as zero - and it does not increase as brake force increases. I'm sure some fluidics engineer can refute that but that person will have to agree that, relative to cable brakes, the friction might as well be classed as zero.

The only time that cable brakes' have zero friction is when you're not pulling the lever. Then cable friction ramps up the harder you pull and efficiency is lost. This is further increased by the amount of wear and contamination between cable and casing and because of cable routing.

There really is a difference in the two braking systems and the biggest difference is modulation - a term that is much better felt than written about.

Sheer power is easily obtained but that isn't a good characteristic of hydraulic brakes unless, due to the type of riding, more power is needed - such as MTBike DH racing. After all, tour buses coming down Pikes Peak need more braking power (and lots more energy dissipation) than Momma's Honda Fit grocery-getter. In most road cycling, the need to slow down trumps the need to stop quickly as most bike braking is limited by tire/road friction anyway. Or it's limited by weight distribution, or lack of, as you found.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

tlg said:


> I'm holding out for electronic anti-lock brakes. (don't laugh... you know someone's working on it)


Got them on my Harley Night Rod. They really do work!


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Pirx said:


> Where did you get the idea that they stop you better? I thought I had explained that there is no reason to expect that this is the case. It is trivial to match any brake performance that a hydraulic brake has with a mechanical brake. *There is no fundamental difference*. If the levers and calipers have the same travel, the two systems will have exactly the same performance, period, end of sentence.
> 
> Besides, maybe that's just me, but I am really not interested in a brake that needs just a light touch of my finger to lock the wheel. The other day, on one of our group rides, I hadn't paid attention for a moment, and suddenly realized that I was about to run into the rider in front of me that had slowed down. I tapped my brake just a tad harder than usual, and as a result had my rear wheel lift off. I sure as hell didn't need any more than that kind of "stopping power"...


Sigh. You do understand that by "stop you better" I didn't mean "raw stopping power to throw you off your bike and nothing more," right?

Go ride a mountain bike with cable disc brakes, then go ride one with hydraulic disc brakes. Since the disc (and pull ratio) stays very similar, it should be a fair comparison. The huge, awesome, amazing differences are in modulation and better performance in inclement weather. With hydraulic brakes, you can control your loss of speed much better than you can with cable actuated brakes. You can slow down at just about any pace you want. Cable actuated brakes are much more on/off, and provide the rider less control over their rate of speed loss. I call more control "better stopping."

Also, for those of us who ride when it's crappy outside, a very small loss in braking efficiency when it rains is pretty neat. Especially for those who run carbon rims. 

Hope that clears things up for you, and explains why I think "If the levers and calipers have the same travel, the two systems will have exactly the same performance, period, end of sentence." is completely off base. That being said, if you're right, I'll be able to find out in a couple weeks when my red hydro disc brakes show up in the shop. :thumbsup:


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

It is all about modulation. Granted there is a bit of market driving this. But since I will never need them where I live doesn't mean someone won't buy them and run them. 

Actually the big question will be disk vs rim brake. That seems to be where the major design differences are. 

Yes, shimano has a great advantage with the electronic stuff. But if I missed it sorry, they don't have rim brake yet, only a disk. Where as SRAM has both. 

Bill


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

masont said:


> Hope that clears things up for you,


Unfortunately this discussion was about *rim brakes*, so your adulation of disc brakes is entirely off-topic here. Here's the difference: With disc brakes, you can have minimal travel of your brake pads, meaning much larger mechanical advantage. Feel free to come back once you understand that difference.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

I'm with masont's comparison of MTB mechanical disc vs. hydraulic. Even cheap hydraulics beat the best mechanicals for feel and control. I would NEVER go back to mech disks on my MTB.

But the proof will be in the pudding. You'll have to ride the new SRAM hydros to see it for yourself. I'm sure this will apply to rims as well as discs. Can't wait for prices to fall on them.

Final comment is that brakes are much more about SLOWING than stopping. Contol is the issue, not power. Cars, motorcycles, airplanes, MTBs have all gone to hydraulics over the past 50 years and not one of them has gone back to mechanicals. Not one.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

meh... I'll wait for the battery operated/wireless/motor-actuated brakes that I'm sure will be coming any day now...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I swear every time there's a discussion about hydro or disc brakes, it's a guarantee that some folks will bring in the MTB comparison, and as if that's not enough, hell even bring in jumbo jets and jet fighters for good measure.

First of all, there is no question that disc (be it mechanical or hydro) perform better in the wet, and in most cases in the mud too. But hold on here, most folks who own top of the line superduper carbon bikes don't ride them in the wet or mud or dirty road. Pristine tarmac is what these expensive bikes will be ridden on. Now, there is where somebody will say, "but but I ride my expensive bike in the rain". Guess what buddy, you're in the minority. So despite the superior performance of disc in the wet and dirty condition, it just don't mean as much for the Sky- and Astana- kit wearing folks. Maybe it means more for the commuter and hybrid folks. But I reckon SRAM and Shimano is not looking to entice the commuter folks who are stingy. They are looking to entice the fat money crowds, aka, the kit wearing crowds. As of this moment, the kit wearing crowds are not yet sold on disc nor hydro yet, because like I said, S-Works bikes are babied bikes. Won't be seeing much wet nor dirt.

The next argument that the pro- disc/hydro brings to the table is: MTB'ers have been using them for years now. Nope, won't go back to V-brakes nor cable. Modulation is so awesome. Ok let's disect this argument. First of all, yes modulation is better. But being better does not mean that the operator will also be a better at braking. Why do I say this? Well... most of you MTB'ers are still LOUSY brakers on the trails. Let me see here. You guys tend to run hot into a turn and then rely on your brake to skid your rear wheel. So much for the modulation advantage.

Also, Mtb guys are so used to dragging their brakes, and maybe this is the reason why they want a brake system with light lever pull. Perhaps the real problem is that people are lacking cornering skills. I will admit that a better modulation will enable a rider to dive deep into a corner, usually. But this sort of over taking manuver... is not what most folks, even racer folks, are really capable of. Let's get real here, most of you are not capable of braking your bicycle into a corner motoGP style, sideway and all. So let's stop the pretention that you will now suddenly become a dare devil. Perhaps if both mechanical and hydro are operating at their ragged limits, then the hydro disc superior modulation will actually translate into real world advantage. But in the real world, most folks are just too timid to even come close to the limits to realize any advantage.

I'm going to stop here. Now before anyone go asking me what do I know about mtb. Let me just say that I've been in the downhill game, and I've been in the motorcycle game, so I think I know what hydro disc is all about. But for road bike application, I'm not sold yet. I will take notice when road races are won or lost due to having or not having disc or hydro brakes. Until then, this is a marketing sideshow from the manufacturers.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Pirx said:


> Unfortunately this discussion was about *rim brakes*, so your adulation of disc brakes is entirely off-topic here. Here's the difference: With disc brakes, you can have minimal travel of your brake pads, meaning much larger mechanical advantage. Feel free to come back once you understand that difference.


So, you take this pretty seriously, huh?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Didn't read any of this but the correct answer is marketing and hype.
And discussion comparing MTB DISC brakes with hydro RIM brakes may as well be a comparison of an apple and the pyramids of Eqypt.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

masont said:


> So, you take this pretty seriously, huh?


No, I don't take you seriously.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> Shimano hydro disc, and their 11spd electronic, will eat Sram's lunch here





ziscwg said:


> I'm glad someone will eat because for what Shimano charges, you won't have any money for lunch.


Because so many roadie frames new and old have disc mounts.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Why?

Because there is one born every minute....That's why.
.
.
.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

I miss the old days of road cycling when one didn't have to be concerned with electronic shifting battery levels or hydraulic fluid leaks spoiling a relaxing ride.

Now please excuse me while I mend a tear on my wool jersey.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

The comparison of mech disc/hydro disc to rim brakes is not facetious, although I (and probably all of you) have not had the chance to sample mech rim/hydro rim, so it's not proven, just expected based on the comparison.

The *feel and control* of hydraulic disc brakes is so vastly better compared to mechanical discs - even the very best mechanical discs - that nobody in the MTB world is going back. Stopping power is not the issue (witness the parallel discussion here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/components-wrenching/brakes-upgrade-ultegra-6700-dura-ace-9000-a-307483.html This quote is worth noting:


looigi said:


> Using compressionless brake housings can make a notable difference by making brake lever travel less spongy. There are two that I'm aware of, Yokozuna and Jagwire Racer or Pro. These housing have longitudinal wires like shifter cables instead of spiral wrapped wires. I have used the Yokozuna and they do make a big difference. I plan on trying the Jagwire next time I recable.


The difference is that hydraulic is the most "compressionless" system of all, period.

That said, better housings and cables on a conventional rim brake setup, as suggested above would go a long way to getting that feel and control offered by hydraulics at a fraction of the cost. But for those who can afford the new setup, go for it! (and report back here! )


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## ericTheHalf (Apr 5, 2008)

Hydraulic rim brakes is the only way Sram could get Red 22 into the tour.
It could also be for upgrade path. Upgrading to Red 22 with disc brakes means a new frame and at least one new set of wheels. The rim brakes would let you use your current frame and wheels.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

I call it a luxury in the same vein as other drivetrain components. Any group on the market can shift well enough, is stiff enough, and never ridiculously heavy, but higher end stuff just have the better finish and feel.

With caliper brakes, it's not that hard to modulate most stuff on the market unless you've got gizzly bear hands or bird talons at the levers. Hydraulic setups might let you run close to the threshold much more consistently, but it's not a life or death matter.

The right pads will offer enough braking power for anyone. When it comes to fade, there's no difference. Pad is going to suffer in the same fashion, maybe even more with the Hydraulic lever because there's more force applied.

I think I'd look more towards discs, but I can see the desire for hydraulic actuation in general. I liken it to my elevated standards for eyewear. Oakley's smoother spring-loaded hinges and finish are partly why I'm ****-riding the brand now. They really feel a step above in refinement while other brands just don't seem as set apart from the WalMart stuff. Call me a snob, but luxuries in sheer feel of movement and actuation kinda bring justice to their price tag imo. If you can afford it, hey why not? 

It's not rendering anything else as actually lesser. I mean Business class and economy class seating on a plane will take you to the same destination in the same time.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You've completely overlooked modulation and its' impact on power verses travel. Further, you've overlooked the difference between the friction loss on cables verses fliud.

Old mountain bikers are clearly aware of the advantage. Us road bikers would still be using friction shifters on the down tubes if left to our own ingenuity.

Many aftermarket brakes employ an initially high ratio of cable to lever travel that decreases more rapidly than the big brands.

This all becomes important when descending long winding descents where arm pump becomes an issue.


Pirx said:


> Sure, if you are one to believe in marketing babble.
> 
> 
> 
> It's completely meaningless. Look, people, a brake is a very simple device: It's a lever system that works on the simple principle that a small force on the longer lever creates a larger force on the short one. The absolutely _only _thing that matters is how much travel is required on the hand lever versus how much travel you have on your brake pads. There is absolutely no reason to not have those two values identical for purely mechanical versus hydraulic brakes. If they are identical, the brake force will be identical (assuming identical pads). If you want more brake force, increase the travel at the brake lever, or reduce the travel at the calipers, or do both. That's all there is to it.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I think swift solo nailed it. If you live where you need them then fine, nice to have several choices. 
Here in Delaware, not much need for hydraulic road equipment. Not when my longest down hill is about a minute. Lol lol

Bill


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Bikerumor's hands on review

"I totally get it now. Like Avid’s Paul Kantor said, “hydraulic rim brakes don’t offer that much more stopping power, but how you get there is a lot less effort and a lot more control.” SRAM’s HRR brakes offer silky smooth lever pull, and offer the slightly more stopping power than mechanical rim brakes with a lot less effort. Throw in the fact that the hydraulic system will continue that same feel and won’t deteriorate like a cable system will, and you can route the hoses however you want inside a frame, and it starts to make more sense."


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## mgringle (May 20, 2011)

But, but, they look so COOOL!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

mgringle said:


> But, but, they look so COOOL!


Don't look at your brakes descending...........You'll crash just as you are saying "Sooooo Coooool" to yourself.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

mgringle said:


> But, but, they look so COOOL!


I think they're ugly, actually. 

Mine (disc) ship next week. I've got this bare frame taunting me in the garage. Can't wait.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

masont said:


> I think they're ugly, actually.
> 
> Mine (disc) ship next week. I've got this bare frame taunting me in the garage. Can't wait.


Ha, my wife asked me why I have some many wheels hanging around the garage. So, I said, "My bday is next week. A frame to put them on would help clean things up"

She just rolled her eyes.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

bike981 said:


> This is an interesting issue. In cars, I believe ABS works by sensing that one wheel is rotating significantly more slowly than the three others.
> 
> On a bike, there's only two wheels, and if the front one locks up, bad things can begin to happen pretty quickly (rider potentially thrown over the bars). ABS for a bike seems to be a harder challenge, then. No matter what, it would require electronic control of the brake modulation and a means to rapidly monitor front/rear wheel rotation speeds.


Actually, it was patented a couple of decades ago. The idea is easier than thought, because of the asymmetric nature of bike braking, and the fact that traction force drops of precipitously when a wheel begins to slip. The lever actuates the rear brake. In turn the reaction force (the caliper trying to move relative to the frame, as forced by the turning wheel) moves the piston / cable that actuates the front brake. 

That's a lot of force, so a relatively light squeeze in back applies a fair bit of front. But as soon as the rear starts to get light from the braking, the force to the front drops off. In effect, you always get the maximum possible braking on the front that allows the rear to remain in contact. And since front braking is the most effective braking, it's near perfect. The only challenge: balancing the reaction-force spring to allow for speed-scrubbing modulation.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

I'm a luddite, but I see the advantages as:
1) Good as a transition point: Improved (if needed for the rider conditions) without need for a new frame.
2) Avoids the added frame, wheel, and system weight of discs
3) Addresses some degree of "carbon rims don't stop' via additional force, without requiring the above disc issues
4) Rims actually are more appropriate technology for race bikes, in terms of reduced brake drag, easier for quick wheel changes, etc. 
5) I don't care what fighter jets do. a 622mm disc is moar betterer than a 140mm one. The only reason other vehicles don't brake against their rims is because they can't. Road bikes have a unique advantage in having their tires near the same width as their rims and nothing mechanical to get in their way of caliper mounting - so why not take advantage of it? OK, so the others also can't use rims because their weight and speed make wear and thermal transfer bigger problems. Meanwhile, we see larger heat management issues with discs over rims, because the math scales differently. (BTW, that's why discs haven't appeared until now - they've had a heck of a time solving those problems. They've been working on it since they came out for mtn.) IOW, right tool for the job.

But what do I know? I'll be tugging on cables attached to rim calipers for a long time yet. Even as hydros are better in every way, they still do nothing meaningful to my riding profile, and I appreciate the simplicity and field serviceability of mechanical setups.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

A friend of mine got to spend some time on the hydraulic rim brakes. He's a cat 1 road racer who's spent a dozen or so years working in shops and who has been a manufacturer's rep. I trust the guy.

He said they sucked. Barely stopped in the dry on a pair of Roval Rapide clx-40 carbon wheels. Not exactly what I expected. I'm still looking forward to trying it (and getting the disc version, which should be any day)


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

masont said:


> A friend of mine got to spend some time on the hydraulic rim brakes. He's a cat 1 road racer who's spent a dozen or so years working in shops and who has been a manufacturer's rep. I trust the guy.
> He said they sucked. Barely stopped in the dry on a pair of Roval Rapide clx-40 carbon wheels. Not exactly what I expected. I'm still looking forward to trying it (and getting the disc version, which should be any day)


Doesn't it seem odd that one of the world's best pro racers would race the whole of the most mountainous TdF *ever* on a set of these brakes that "sucked [and] Barely stopped in the dry"? The mind boggles.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I'm willing to bet the brakes were set up wrong. Anyone who has tried Magura rim brakes from the early 90's will tell you these style of brakes work extremely well. 

Bill


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

crossracer said:


> I'm willing to bet the brakes were set up wrong. Anyone who has tried Magura rim brakes from the early 90's will tell you these style of brakes work extremely well.


My old HS-33 and my current HS-22 work perfectly. They are much better than any cable operated rim brake I ever had on my mountain bike.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

I'll make this simple: If you haven't ridden with hydraulic brakes, your opinion is USELESS. 

Hydraulic brakes work better in EVERY regard...
- Easier to operate
- Easier to modulate
- No cable drag from old/dirty/corroded cables
- Much less maintenance, e.g. don't have to recable hydro brakes every year to keep optimal performance
- Much better wet weather performance (with discs)
- Eliminates risk of tube blowouts from overheating (with discs)
- The list goes on and on...

Really, if you've not ridden - I mean really ridden - with hydro brakes... just stop typing and listen to the guys who have. Hydro brakes are good. It's okay. You can still shift with cables.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

OldZaskar said:


> I'll make this simple: If you haven't ridden with hydraulic brakes, your opinion is USELESS.
> 
> Hydraulic brakes work better in EVERY regard...
> - Easier to operate
> ...


Ain't that the truth. Over at Mountain Bike Review we did ALL this "debate" when hydraulic rim brakes came out and again when disc brakes came out. It's laughable reading the same old reasons why hydraulic brakes for road bikes (rim or disc) shouldn't exist. This stuff is no longer debated on the mountain bike forum anymore (since about 2005) and in a few years it won't be debated here either. And yes *"If you haven't ridden with hydraulic brakes, your opinion is USELESS."* The end.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I will wait for the hydro shifters version


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Doesn't it seem odd that one of the world's best pro racers would race the whole of the most mountainous TdF *ever* on a set of these brakes that "sucked [and] Barely stopped in the dry"? The mind boggles.


I have to agree. The rig your friend had was not set up right. Maybe the wrong pad/rim combo. Maybe the lines were not bleed properly on set up.

Road hydro will have it's growing pains for sure. I think it will be less than mtb as much of the tech can move over.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Doesn't it seem odd that one of the world's best pro racers would race the whole of the most mountainous TdF *ever* on a set of these brakes that "sucked [and] Barely stopped in the dry"? The mind boggles.


Yes. I don't offer this as proof that they're terrible, just a data point. You may have noticed me defending them earlier in the thread - or you may not have. You may also have missed the fact that I've got a pair of the disc version of these on backorder. It's a long thread. I understand.

I thought it was interesting, given that there's a lot of speculation but not very much actual experience with them. Would you prefer I just kept my yap shut and didn't say something unless it was absolute proof for something?


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> There really is a difference in the two braking systems and the biggest difference is modulation - a term that is much better felt than written about.


This is exactly correct.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I for one would like to see a cx version. That would definetly get my interest. 

As for saying if you havnt ridden them people should talk, this is a forum. People will talk. 

Plus no one here has much experience on these brakes cause they are brand new. These are not mtn brakes, these are mated to road levers on road bikes. Completely different feel if for no other reason it's on the road not off road. 

I still say it's way overkill for most people, simply cause many if these super bikes never see a rainy day. 

Now cx bikes? That's an area that I think is perfect for these brakes. All the mud in a cx race makes hydraulic the perfect fit for those who want it. 

Bill


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## bghill (Apr 5, 2010)

They also provide another hand position as the hoods are so friggin high.
View attachment 284656


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