# Recommend Expander Plug that does not slip!



## djhingapus (Feb 20, 2010)

Hey

I need some recommendations regarding an expansion / compression plug that stays in the steerer when torqued probably. I have a problem with the one that I have at the moment, it keeps slipping whenever I tighten the top cap, and therefore I can not get rid of the play in the headset. Its a Carbon steerer 1 1/8, ID of 23

Is there some better than others at gripping? Or should I try to use some sort of liquid to get it to stay? (I have tried carbon assembly compound paste with no success).

The one that I have at the moment is this one
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=19637

Feel free to come with all the advices that you can I wanna go out riding as soon as possible..

Best Regards
Rasmus


----------



## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

FSA Compression plug


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Do you know the plug is actually slipping, or is it possible that the top cap is bottoming on the steerer tube preventing preload.


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

PJ352 said:


> Do you know the plug is actually slipping, or is it possible that the top cap is bottoming on the steerer tube preventing preload.



+1....What he said....


----------



## djhingapus (Feb 20, 2010)

Yep, the plug is slipping..


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

djhingapus said:


> Yep, the plug is slipping..



I understand the plug is slipping but if the top cap is bottoming out on the steerer, the plug will slip and the headset will not get tight. It take very little effort to adjust a headset so there might be another problem that is causing the plug to slip


----------



## djhingapus (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes I have at least 5mm of free space from steerer to top cap, it's an integrated headset - and as far as I know they have to be tightened a bit more than conventional?

To look for play in headset I use the old front brake method, is that also suitable for integrated or? + Can you eliminate all play with integrated headsets?


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*

The old front brake method is worthless with integrated headsets. It can take up to 5Nm of torque on the top cap to properly preload the bearings. I torque mine until I get some drage as the fork is turned, then loosen it just enough so the front wheel will self-center after a turn.

Does your expanding plug only have one bolt that expands the plug and tightens the top cap? That type is more prone to problems, but part of the problem may be that you've never tightened it enough so it can get a grip on the steering tube. 

The FSA model has a separate bolt to expand the plug, then the top cap threads on, independently.

If you are sure that you'll never want to shorten the steering tube, then gluing is certainly an option. 

I make my own plugs from epoxy putty, an M5 or M6 thread insert and glue them in permanently. They total setup is less than half the weight of an FSA.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

C-40 said:


> *The old front brake method is worthless with integrated headsets*. It can take up to 5Nm of torque on the top cap to properly preload the bearings. I torque mine until I get some drage as the fork is turned, then loosen it just enough so the front wheel will self-center after a turn.
> 
> *Does your expanding plug only have one bolt that expands the plug and tightens the top cap? That type is more prone to problems, but part of the problem may be that you've never tightened it enough so it can get a grip on the steering tube. *
> 
> ...


IME the front brake method is far from worthless, but that aside, IMO the second bolded statement would be my next best guess. The OP slides the plug into the steerer then (essentially) spins it inside the tube as he turns the bolt. A remedy may be to adaquately tighten the plug _before_ inserting (enough that some effort is used to push it down), then tighten.


----------



## djhingapus (Feb 20, 2010)

The plug has two bolts one for tightening the plug and one for top cap. It might be that i have not tightenet the plug enough but them again i really Think that i have tried As much torque As i have dared!

Not sure of how High the stem should be yet so glue is not an option. I Think i just need to try another type of plug or take it to an lbs.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

djhingapus said:


> The plug has two bolts one for tightening the plug and one for top cap. It might be that i have not tightenet the plug enough but them again i really Think that i have tried As much torque As i have dared!
> 
> Not sure of how High the stem should be yet so glue is not an option. I Think i just need to try another type of plug or take it to an lbs.


If the plug is turning inside the steerer tube, the bolt would turn freely. If you're getting resistance at the bolt but there is still play, something is bottoming out preventing preload.


----------



## djhingapus (Feb 20, 2010)

When i put on the top cap a tighten it, there is an initial resistence an still play. When I then tighten a bit more I can feel that the top cap bolt do not get any tighter. When I then unscrew the top cap, I can see that the plug has started slipping and is on its way up.

I have no idea what to do, other than try a new plug that can grip..


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

djhingapus said:


> When i put on the top cap a tighten it, there is an initial resistence an still play. When I then tighten a bit more I can feel that the top cap bolt do not get any tighter. When I then unscrew the top cap, I can see that the plug has started slipping and is on its way up.
> 
> *I have no idea what to do, other than try a new plug that can grip*..


I agree. I think you've reached the point of being fairly certain that the plug is the problem and the specific cause is irrelevant.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*don't agree...*



PJ352 said:


> IME the front brake method is far from worthless, but that aside, IMO the second bolded statement would be my next best guess. The OP slides the plug into the steerer then (essentially) spins it inside the tube as he turns the bolt. A remedy may be to adaquately tighten the plug _before_ inserting (enough that some effort is used to push it down), then tighten.


Rocking the bike to feel for play with the front brake locked is worthless with integrated headsets, having angular contact bearings. These headsets will not exhibit the type of play that old caged ball headsets do. They require a substantial top cap force, many times the amount that a caged-ball headset does. They can feel just fine with the rocking test, but be far too loose.


----------



## gnatman (Jan 14, 2009)

+1 on FSA. 

It has two allen bolts to tighten. The virtue of the two boltl design is described in other posts. Tech support is excellent. I emailed with and question, and FSA tech support answered the same day.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

C-40 said:


> Rocking the bike to feel for play with the front brake locked is worthless with integrated headsets, having angular contact bearings. *These headsets will not exhibit the type of play that old caged ball headsets do.* They require a substantial top cap force, many times the amount that a caged-ball headset does. They can feel just fine with the rocking test, but be far too loose.


I won't disagree that there's a difference in the feel of caged/ loose versus cartridge bearings, nor should that specific 'test' take precedence over the goal of no play/ no binding, but IME it will indicate excessive looseness.


----------



## djhingapus (Feb 20, 2010)

Bought an FSA plug at the LBS today, it fits perfect and seems to snug very well. Thx for the recommendations. Now I can say +1 on the FSA as well


----------



## em3 (Dec 25, 2005)

C-40 said:


> The old front brake method is worthless with integrated headsets. It can take up to* 5Nm* of torque on the top cap to properly preload the bearings. I torque mine until I get some drage as the fork is turned, then loosen it just enough so the front wheel will self-center after a turn.



5Nm? A top cap should not require but more then one full turn (if even that) to reach the compression necessary to adjust a threadless headset. If you are tightening your stem to the steer tube BEFORE compressing your bearings then maybe your method might work but if you are preloading your bearings prior to setting your stem then you should only need about what is equivalent to about 1-2 Nm of torque.
EM3


----------



## ssing20 (Aug 1, 2007)

em3 said:


> 5Nm? A top cap should not require but more then one full turn (if even that) to reach the compression necessary to adjust a threadless headset. If you are tightening your stem to the steer tube BEFORE compressing your bearings then maybe your method might work but if you are preloading your bearings prior to setting your stem then you should only need about what is equivalent to about 1-2 Nm of torque.
> EM3


C-40 is referring to Integrated Headsets in particular, not just any threadless headset. In my experience, I've had to torque my integrated HS upwards of 5nm as well. Good luck picking a fight w/ C-40


----------



## em3 (Dec 25, 2005)

ssing20 said:


> C-40 is referring to Integrated Headsets in particular, not just any threadless headset. In my experience, I've had to torque my integrated HS upwards of 5nm as well. Good luck picking a fight w/ C-40



Integrated threadless headsets do not require more or less torque for proper bearing compression compared to non-integrated threadless headsets.


----------



## frmrench (Apr 10, 2009)

Call me stubborn, but I'd still bet that it's the issue that PJ352 mentioned. Nearly any top cap, even those that don't have optimal grip can pull tight enough to allow you to secure the stem/steerer bolts for proper, wiggle free headset adjustment. Put a slim spacer in under the cap, even your old one, and I'd bet your problem will disappear.


----------



## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

I've also had a plug or two that was a pain in the rear to use. Did the same thing as the OP; it would spin inside the steerer tube. The trick is to look at the plug and determine what part needs to stay in place while it tightens up. I made myself a spacer sleeve which loosely fit down into the steerer tube and contacted the outer part of the plug which needed to stay in place. I then just put the top cap on with the bolt and let the spacer sleeve pull up tight to the top cap. Then lightly snugged the top cap bolt to seat the inner part of the plug and seat it snugly against the steerer tube. Then remove the bolt/cap/spacer sleeve and assemble with the stem/etc and adjust headset. Very simple operation.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*duh...*

What idiot would tighten a stem before adjusting the top cap? I've been using threadless headsets since 1999. The caged-ball types take very little top cap pressure. The angular contact type take a lot more. You are absolutely wrong in contending that they all work about the same. The typical angualr contact cartridge bearing in an FSA or Cane Creek headset work nothing like a Campy conventional threadless headset. I used the Campy conventional threadless on three bikes before I got my first IS standard integrated headset. There's a world of difference.

I don't use a torque wrench, but a light twist on the top cap is often insufficient for angular contact bearings. I tighten mine as tight as possible without creating excessive drag that would keep the front wheel from self-centering after a turn. Lower preloads can result in damage to the bearing seats in the frame. Up to 5Nm could mean anything from 1-5. I did not say to just tighten to 5Nm.


----------



## em3 (Dec 25, 2005)

C40, before you get too surly, please let me qualify that I overlooked how you had indicated “up to 5 Nm” in your original post. Well…. I suppose in some cases if you are adjusting a threadless headset with bearings that have not been properly seated, a higher torque applied to the top cap may be necessary to essentially seat the bearings. However, as I am sure you already know, using the top cap as a bearing press is not the proper way to seat bearings and 5Nm of torque will likely result in damage to your bearings. If you start with properly seated bearings then the higher torque you indicate for preload should never be necessary.

I simply have never encountered a headset that requires the high torque value you indicate for proper preload. I have installed or adjusted hundreds of threadless headsets since their inception over 20 years ago and have never had to torque a top cap more then the usual gentle 1-2 Nm (about a full turn or less of the top cap)….and nothing more. This is true regardless if they are integrated, internal or external cups; with angular, non-angular or caged bearings; or from cheap Taiwan brands to Campy, Chris King, Cane Creek and FSA. In fact, you will note that most manufacturers do not list torque value settings for top caps but rather indicate that bearing pre load should be set by compressing up to the point where no play is felt and headset rotates freely…none indicate that you should first preload load excessively (i.e. 5 Nm) and then back off. The few manufacturers who do list torque values list the modest values consistent with what I have outlined (e.g. Chris King recs 4-10 in/lbs…equiv to little over 1 Nm). 

Remember that this forum is about sharing experiences from which others can learn…you have had a different experience then me but respectfully I acknowledge that it doesn’t mean you are wrong and I am right, and I certainly will never be despot-like in characterizing your knowledge as “idiotic” or “absolutely wrong.”

EM3


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*???*

I didn't say that a headset had to be over tightened to 5Nm and I don't use a higher initial torque to seat the bearings. I use the higher torque to determine the maximum preload, then back off that amount, slightly. I have had numerous cases where a moderate torque on the top cap produced no noticeable play, but once out on the road, the first good-sized mismatch in the pavement that was hit caused a "thwack" sound because the headset was too loose. Ignoring this can result in a damaged lower bearing seat in the frame. When integrated headsets first became popular, there were many posts on this forum complaining about the noise and the cause was always failing to properly preload the bearings. 

All of the frames I have use have IS standard headsets. I tighten them with significant torque. It creates no drag as I turn the fork and the front wheel readily self-centers after a turn. 

Caged ball headsets that don't have angular contact bearings are entirely different. They are very sensitive to the slightest amount of over tightening and require a very low top cap torque.


----------



## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

C-40 said:


> The old front brake method is worthless with integrated headsets. It can take up to 5Nm of torque on the top cap to properly preload the bearings. I torque mine until I get some drage as the fork is turned, then loosen it just enough so the front wheel will self-center after a turn.
> 
> Does your expanding plug only have one bolt that expands the plug and tightens the top cap? That type is more prone to problems, but part of the problem may be that you've never tightened it enough so it can get a grip on the steering tube.
> 
> ...


what kind of putty do you use and how do you form it to the tube? just pack it in? I was thinking of doing this myself after feeling the weight on the compression plug i've got for my new build.


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*



MarshallH1987 said:


> what kind of putty do you use and how do you form it to the tube? just pack it in? I was thinking of doing this myself after feeling the weight on the compression plug i've got for my new build.


I used a short length of cutoff steering tube as a mold. Without that or some other tube the just happends to have the right ID, it would be a lot harder to make and get the thread insert centered and parallel to the steering tube.


----------

