# Saddle height



## biobanker

Super confused. You may remember my post of my wacky saddle in "Is my saddle telling me something", here.

Ive looked around and found that many recommend a 0.883 * inseam measure from the pedal to the top of the saddle.

Mine is 14 cm above that.

My inseam is 34 inches and the top of my saddle is about 35 inches from the pedal when the crank is aligned with the seat tube.

I did a fit calculator and the results are (in cm):

Measurements
-------------------------------------------
Inseam: 66.5
Trunk: 66.25
Forearm: 36
Arm: 66
Thigh: 60.75
Lower Leg: 53.5
Sternal Notch: 144.5
Total Body Height: 175.25


The Competitive Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 43.0 - 43.5
Seat tube range c-t: 44.4 - 44.9
Top tube length: 55.4 - 55.8
Stem Length: 11.2 - 11.8
BB-Saddle Position: 56.5 - 58.5
Saddle-Handlebar: 52.5 - 53.1
Saddle Setback: 0.6 - 1.0

It is saying that my saddle is about 14cm too high.

How can it be THAT far off? I can see a cm too high, but 14? Ive riden a few centuries this summer, dozens of 70-80 mile rides. I ride with fast riders (local, national and some former Olympic riders) and while they're faster than I am, I can ride with them when they go out for a real ride. 

How can my saddle be a mile too high and I still ride okay? My body hurts, but 14cm?

Am I missing something? The middle of my bottom bracket to the top of my saddle is 72cm right now. I think that the above is telling me to lower it to around 58cm? Seriously? Am I reading this wrong?


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## George M

My inseam is 34.5 and my saddle is 31" from the BB to the top of saddle.


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## Gibby

How are you measuring your inseam? Pants inseam is not the same as cycling inseam.


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## Comer

my inseam is 34" and my height is 78.5 or over 30 and 1/2 inches. but that's measured from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the seat.


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## biobanker

Bare feet, up against wall, level in the crotch at similar upward pressure as saddle. My pant inseam is a 31.5 or so, riding 34.

I resorted to the tried and true heel on the pedals, pedal backwards without lock or rocking. That lowered the saddle 4cm. Im about to head out on a ride - will report back. Feels strange!

Thx for the guidance so far!


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## stevesbike

there's two instances in your original post where you mistake the way the measure should be done - it's not from the top of the saddle to the pedal - it's to the middle of the BB. You'd be adding at least 14 cm the way you're measuring it.


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## Gibby

If you lowered your saddle 4cm, based on the heel on the pedal technique, I'd guess you really did have your saddle too high. Probably not 14cm, but sounds high to me.


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## robpar

Gibby said:


> If you lowered your saddle 4cm, based on the heel on the pedal technique, I'd guess you really did have your saddle too high. Probably not 14cm, but sounds high to me.


It also depends on the saddle set back. Depending on the fore-aft position it can affect the saddle height by as much as 2 cm or more...


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## robpar

biobanker said:


> Super confused. You may remember my post of my wacky saddle in "Is my saddle telling me something", here.
> 
> Ive looked around and found that many recommend a 0.883 * inseam measure from the pedal to the top of the saddle.
> 
> Mine is 14 cm above that.
> 
> My inseam is 34 inches and the top of my saddle is about 35 inches from the pedal when the crank is aligned with the seat tube.
> 
> I did a fit calculator and the results are (in cm):
> 
> Measurements
> -------------------------------------------
> Inseam: 66.5
> Trunk: 66.25
> Forearm: 36
> Arm: 66
> Thigh: 60.75
> Lower Leg: 53.5
> Sternal Notch: 144.5
> Total Body Height: 175.25
> 
> 
> The Competitive Fit (cm)
> -------------------------------------------
> Seat tube range c-c: 43.0 - 43.5
> Seat tube range c-t: 44.4 - 44.9
> Top tube length: 55.4 - 55.8
> Stem Length: 11.2 - 11.8
> BB-Saddle Position: 56.5 - 58.5
> Saddle-Handlebar: 52.5 - 53.1
> Saddle Setback: 0.6 - 1.0
> 
> It is saying that my saddle is about 14cm too high.
> 
> How can it be THAT far off? I can see a cm too high, but 14? Ive riden a few centuries this summer, dozens of 70-80 mile rides. I ride with fast riders (local, national and some former Olympic riders) and while they're faster than I am, I can ride with them when they go out for a real ride.
> 
> How can my saddle be a mile too high and I still ride okay? My body hurts, but 14cm?
> 
> Am I missing something? The middle of my bottom bracket to the top of my saddle is 72cm right now. I think that the above is telling me to lower it to around 58cm? Seriously? Am I reading this wrong?


The formula used measures form top of saddle to center of BB. The total height is affected by crank arm length, Saddle fore- aft position, saddle tilt, type of riding and comfort. The type of saddle you have also affects how you measure. My saddle has the rear (widest part) about 1 cm higher than the front so if I measure to the center, I'm off by 0.5 cm; I have to put a level and measure to the bottom edge of the level. IMHO the formula is just a starting point... experts suggest the 30 degree knee angle bend at bottom of pedal stroke, one the fore-aft position is set.


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## cycling6500

If your inseam is 34in = 86.36cm, then .883 x 86.36 = 76.25 cm from center of BB to TOS.

The fit calculator inseam of 66.5cm is equal to 26.18in! .883 x 66.5cm = 58.72cm

Comparing your setup of 72cm to 58.72 yields a difference of 14cm!
Comparing your setup of 72cm to 76.25 yields a difference of 4.25cm.

The formula .883 x inseam and heel on the pedal technique are not absolutes but are good starting points.

I think lowering your saddle to 68cm might be too low for you.

I believe it is best to change the height + or - 1mm at a time.

Take care,


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## biobanker

cycling6500 said:


> If your inseam is 34in = 86.36cm, then .883 x 86.36 = 76.25 cm from center of BB to TOS.
> 
> The fit calculator inseam of 66.5cm is equal to 26.18in! .883 x 66.5cm = 58.72cm
> 
> Comparing your setup of 72cm to 58.72 yields a difference of 14cm!
> Comparing your setup of 72cm to 76.25 yields a difference of 4.25cm.
> 
> The formula .883 x inseam and heel on the pedal technique are not absolutes but are good starting points.
> 
> I think lowering your saddle to 68cm might be too low for you.
> 
> I believe it is best to change the height + or - 1mm at a time.
> 
> Take care,


DING DING DING!

You found why the fit calculator was way off. TYPO.

But 76cm is 4cm higher than what it was!

Ride update: at 68cm (69 to highest point of saddle) the bike felt strange. I dont think I was down on power on my 70mile ride, but my center of gravity was wobbling back and forth it seemed. It felt weird, but comfortable. My friend commented that he thought it was too low as from the rear my knees would point out a bit.


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## biobanker

Correcting for the typo, the fit calculator sends me back to 74.


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## George M

I think your friend is right. You should be 30.75 and 31".


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## andulong

that .883 formula is from bb to top of saddle, not from pedal to top of saddle...that is the whole problem.


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## durkind

*Now that we Got Saddle Height......*

.....what is typical amount of drop and is it measured from highest point of saddle? This thread has got me thinking more about this. I know everyone's specific drop will be different as saddle height will also be, but what is a good/typical range? I have been playing with different ranges and was just interested where others are at.


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## George M

In Lance Armstrong's book it says.
If you cant touch the floor with your fingers, set the handlebar at the same height as the saddle.
If you can touch the floor with the top halves of your fingers, set the handlebar 5 to 10 cm lower than the saddle.
If you can set your palms flat on the floor, set the handlebar 10 to 15 cm below the saddle.


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## biobanker

And is the saddle height measured as a straight line to the highest point on the saddle, or do you follow the seat tube to a level that is the same as the highest point?


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## George M

biobanker said:


> And is the saddle height measured as a straight line to the highest point on the saddle, or do you follow the seat tube to a level that is the same as the highest point?



You'll be sitting on the lowest part of the saddle, so you should measure it there. It should be pretty much in line with the seat tube.


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## biobanker

man, the front of my knees are starting to hurt. 

Saddle going up.


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## George M

Read post 13.:thumbsup:


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## biobanker

yep! You, and other insightful riders, were right!

The wacky saddle that people said resulted from a saddle that was too high threw me off. 

Thanks!


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## keesue

The standover height of my SS is 32". When I straddle the bike, the bar is right under my crotch. I can stand over the bike flat-footed safely and comfortably but it is an exact fit with no room to spare. The distance from the center of my crank (the bicycle crank) to the top of my saddle is exactly 30". I used this measurement for all of my bikes and it has worked well. Interestingly, it works out to .883 using this metric formula. I was unaware of this formula until I read this thread. Good stuff.


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## andulong

I don't think your math is correct but it really does not matter if you have already found a good saddle height. 32" (your inseam) multiplied by .883 comes to just over 28.25". A 30inch saddle height for someone with a 32" inseam seems very high to me. My inseam is 33 5/8" and my saddle height is only 29 5/8" which is very close to the .883 factor.


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## keesue

ooops, you are right. Duh... At any rate, I found 30 inches to work across my bike stable. Dunno if it's right or not according to the recommendations but none of them actually work for me. It took me a bit to get things dialed in. Thanks for the math catch.


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## phoward

biobanker said:


> Super confused. You may remember my post of my wacky saddle in "Is my saddle telling me something", here.
> 
> Ive looked around and found that many recommend a 0.883 * inseam measure from the pedal to the top of the saddle.
> 
> Mine is 14 cm above that.
> 
> My inseam is 34 inches and the top of my saddle is about 35 inches from the pedal when the crank is aligned with the seat tube.
> 
> I did a fit calculator and the results are (in cm):
> 
> Measurements
> -------------------------------------------
> Inseam: 66.5
> Trunk: 66.25
> Forearm: 36
> Arm: 66
> Thigh: 60.75
> Lower Leg: 53.5
> Sternal Notch: 144.5
> Total Body Height: 175.25
> 
> 
> The Competitive Fit (cm)
> -------------------------------------------
> Seat tube range c-c: 43.0 - 43.5
> Seat tube range c-t: 44.4 - 44.9
> Top tube length: 55.4 - 55.8
> Stem Length: 11.2 - 11.8
> BB-Saddle Position: 56.5 - 58.5
> Saddle-Handlebar: 52.5 - 53.1
> Saddle Setback: 0.6 - 1.0
> 
> It is saying that my saddle is about 14cm too high.
> 
> How can it be THAT far off? I can see a cm too high, but 14? Ive riden a few centuries this summer, dozens of 70-80 mile rides. I ride with fast riders (local, national and some former Olympic riders) and while they're faster than I am, I can ride with them when they go out for a real ride.
> 
> How can my saddle be a mile too high and I still ride okay? My body hurts, but 14cm?
> 
> Am I missing something? The middle of my bottom bracket to the top of my saddle is 72cm right now. I think that the above is telling me to lower it to around 58cm? Seriously? Am I reading this wrong?


0,883 is from center of bottom bracket to saddle but if you count from the pedal you have to add the lenght of the crank arm...

If I remember well, 1,04 * Inseam is what you are looking for (endurance) or 1,06 for short and fast races.

Don't forget this numbers are references and you always have to avoid rocking your hips (too high saddle), asuming you have the correct crank arm lenght.

So, you are not far from your optimum.


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## STARNUT

why is it not obviously that foot size has a a lot to do with saddle height and that the ".883" multiplier only looks at inseam?

Also..... the flexibility thing is _way_. I can't touch the floor with my palms and I run more than 15cm of drop. 

Starnut


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## daivs_T

when u are reaching for the floor... where are u sitting? on the saddle and reaching straight down?


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## phoward

STARNUT said:


> why is it not obviously that foot size has a a lot to do with saddle height and that the ".883" multiplier only looks at inseam?
> 
> Also..... the flexibility thing is _way_. I can't touch the floor with my palms and I run more than 15cm of drop.
> 
> Starnut


Because your body adjust the foot angle to reach the pedal. It's not a big issue because it is a matter of sin(angle-90)*foot_size and then this made a little effect (sure it does) in compare to the inseam.


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## tidi

biobanker said:


> man, the front of my knees are starting to hurt.
> 
> Saddle going up.


i do what you mentioned also. heel on pedal and no hip rocking. i dropped my saddle 3cm over a few months but i also increased saddle setback and pulled my cleats all the way back. at 1st my knees felt it a bit but i gave them time to strengthen. i have never been so comfortable on a bike. i now get a feel as though i am on a leg press machine which i feel is excellent as i can now put a whole lot more force into the cranks. i have also eliminated reach and bar drop issues that were lingering.
so i say go back to your heel on pedal plan then adjust fore/after saddle posi and cleats. i'm guessin you will also gain a better balance over the bike as i did.
don't mean to play guru but i hope this helps.


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## tyro

I have an inseam of 91.4cm (36") and a saddle height of 81.4cm (32"). The 0.883 method says I should be at 80.7cm of saddle height. (plus or minus I know...) I can only touch the floor and I run 12.5cm of drop.

Take the formulas with a grain of salt. They get you in the neighborhood, but a good pro fitting can do wonders. Best bike-related money I ever spent, period.


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## Weav

tidi, how did you figure saddle setback


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## tidi

Weav said:


> tidi, how did you figure saddle setback


gday, it was by feel. i went too far back at 1st and i felt it in my neck so pulled it back up till this went. so far so good as i think i'm getting pretty close now to perfection. i could run a shorter stem and get back further but i would be cramped up out of the saddle. i think i have long legs for my height. i also use 175 cranks on better fitting bike and 172s on the lesser fit rain bike. i sprint better with the shorter crank but climb better with longer. also the longer crank allows my legs to feel less cramped and get better leverage by getting pretty close to the extension of generating the most force, even if it's placibo, still works for me.
i am 178 1/2 with 887mm inseam if i remember correctly. my de rosa is 55.5 top tube with a slacker head tube angle than my steel Viner. 120mm stem on de rosa and the old 3ttt THE BAR has a shorter reach i think than some others.
the Viner is 55 top tube and i'm certain it must have a steeper head tube angle cause i run a 110mm stem on that, even tho it only pulled the bars back 5mm from the 120mm Thomson stem. Viner is 9 speed ultegra while de rosa is 10 speed record.
phew, hows that for an essay eh, give me an inch and i'll take you a mile


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## STARNUT

phoward said:


> Because your body adjust the foot angle to reach the pedal. It's not a big issue because it is a matter of sin(angle-90)*foot_size and then this made a little effect (sure it does) in compare to the inseam.



Uh, incorrect. As fitters, one of the first thing we look at to check fore and aft adjustment and height is how much (or little) you're "ankling". The body wants the knees' angle at TDC to be no more than 110º and around 60º at BDC. Additionally, assuming those are in range your dorsal vs planter flextion should be around 25º. The foot should not "adjust" to the fit, if should be part of the fit and a leading indicator of correct adjustment.

I still contend that foot size has a large impact on saddle height as does cleat placement. Thus, the multiplier is not even an educated guess. Case in point, I have long legs for my height (like real long) and big feet (11-11.5/44.5-45.5) and I run my cleats slightly forward. I have quite a lot of setback to because of my leg _and_ foot length. The multiplier formula here is about 20% off (low) from my actual saddle height. For it to be correct I'd need about a 5.5 to 6.5 foot length.

Starnut


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## Dutch77

STARNUT said:


> I still contend that foot size has a large impact on saddle height as does cleat placement. Thus, the multiplier is not even an educated guess. Case in point, I have long legs for my height (like real long) and big feet (11-11.5/44.5-45.5) and I run my cleats slightly forward. I have quite a lot of setback to because of my leg _and_ foot length. The multiplier formula hear is about 20% off (low) from my actual saddle height. For it to be correct I'd need about a 5.5 to 6.5 foot length.
> 
> Starnut


+1. I'm 6'4" and wear a size 50. The formula is way off for me too, I used too have it too low, and it's not until I started to rise my saddle and move my cleats forward (all the way, I could probably use a tiny bit more) that I started to feel comfortable.


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## feds27

http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-5-30-17460-1,00.html

says 25 to 35 degrees using a goniometer

http://www.medworldstore.com/product.cfm/hurl/Plastic-12-Goniometer-360-Degree.html


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