# Estimate Tire Pressure?



## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

So.....my 700c X 25 tires say they should not be inflated to more than 90psi.

I ordered a digital gauge that fits presta valves...but it was a piece of junk, and would give wildly varying readings and would not ever set to zero (not even before i used it). There don't seem to be too many good gauges on the market that fit presta valves....

So is there any way to estimate my tire pressure? Should I be able to squeeze the sidewalls at 90psi..or should they be rock hard or what? 

The way I have it, my tires seem nice and hard if you try to compress them by pressing downward on the tread from the top...and there's some give in the sidewalls if a squeeze....


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Gauge*



SolitaryRider said:


> So.....my 700c X 25 tires say they should not be inflated to more than 90psi.
> 
> I ordered a digital gauge that fits presta valves...but it was a piece of junk, and would give wildly varying readings and would not ever set to zero (not even before i used it). There don't seem to be too many good gauges on the market that fit presta valves....
> 
> ...


Any decent floor pump comes with a gauge, and while some are better than others, there's not much point obsessing about a specific pressure. The optimum balance of rolling resistance, traction, and comfort is when the tire sags 15% with the rider on the bike. That's hard to measure and I don't know anyone who does it. 

A general guideline is to ride at a high enough pressure to prevent pinch flats - much higher than that and you risk poor traction, discomfort, faster tire wear, and perhaps increased rolling resistance if the tire is so hard that it bounces off road imperfections rather than deforming around them.

You will not be able to calibrate your fingers without a tire gauge as a reference. Find somebody with a decent floor pump and teach your fingers what 90 psi feels like. BTW, 90 psi is kind of a low maximum rating for a 25 mm tire.


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

Floor pump with a gauge. We have 3 in the house. Well, one in the garage and one in each car during riding season... I usually check my tires every other ride. The wife's once a month only because I ask her "when was the last time you checked your tires?" and she answers "the last time you did..." which was 4 weeks earlier.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Hmmm....guess I'll have to get a floor pump just for the purpose of checking my air pressure. Up till now, I've been using my frame pump to air up my tires (and before that, my air compressor with a piece of rubber hose- one end which I'd slip over the presta valve and the other over the end of a blow gun)

No chance of borrowing a pump here....hehe, I don't know anybody else who even has a bicycle, much less a pump! (And if they did have bicycles, I guarantee you, they would be ones with schrader valves!)

I did buy some schrader adapters for the valve stems. Haven't tried 'em yet, but I don't think the pin in the valve will be high enough to allow me to use a standard gauge successfully. 

For now, I'm makinjg sure I have enough pressure to avoid them pinch flats- yet they have a little give. I'm usually pretty good at estimating things....it wouldn't surprise me, when I get a gauge, if I'm within 10psi on either side of 90.


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## mixmaster (Sep 9, 2011)

+1 on the floor pump with a gauge. Got one at REI for $45 and having been using it all summer. Good value and will likely have it for years so the money is well spent. I just throw it in the car with my bike and at most ride people borrow it to top up and check pressures anyway. Helps make new riding partners!


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

+1. Floor pump with gauge is essential equipment for a road cyclist.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm more of a pasture cyclist.....riding on my own property until I get strong enough to make it up the local hills.... Amazingly, I haven't gotten a flat yet, despite all the pointy things that stick up out of the ground [Oh...I shouldn't have said that.....]


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

Check out Nashbar for some decent choices of floor pumps with gauges. 

I ride at between 90 - 100 psi. I'm not heavy though (5"4", 130 pds) so I don't need much.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

SolitaryRider said:


> Hmmm....guess I'll have to get a floor pump just for the purpose of checking my air pressure. Up till now, I've been using my frame pump to air up my tires (and before that, my air compressor with a piece of rubber hose- one end which I'd slip over the presta valve and the other over the end of a blow gun)
> 
> No chance of borrowing a pump here....hehe, I don't know anybody else who even has a bicycle, much less a pump! (And if they did have bicycles, I guarantee you, they would be ones with schrader valves!)
> 
> ...


From the effort you've put into workarounds, my guess is that you think it is expensive to just buy a simple floor pump with a gauge (I don't know many that don't have gauges these days).

Just go to any online site and buy a floor pump for $20-$30. I've bought three on the Performance site over the years, various generic brands (I think mine are labeled Performance, Hurricane, and Ascent....). I doubt any of them cost much more than $20. All three have given me many years of use and all have reasonably accurate gauges. I pump my 25's to about 90 psi and just use that reading on all three pumps and never get pinch flats as long as I don't ignore it for several days (in which case they're probably closer to 70 and I have problems!). This means that the gauges are all accurate for the purpose and I believe are pretty consistent across all three.

My only point is just go buy a cheap floor pump and be done with it.


FWIW, like someone else posted, I just keep a pump wherever I need it - warehouse at work, my car and my garage. Now my wife is riding more, I'll buy a 4th for her car, although they generally don't get pumped up until I do it. At 105 lbs, riding 28's on her road bike, they'd practically have to be flat to get pinched on her bike so it's not a big concern.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Yeah.....I guess I'll just have to give in and buy a floor pump. It's not so much the expense that bothers me, as it is having to have yet more "stuff". -and something that is basically only useful for one very specific thing, at that. But, like all the other stuff I've bought for the bike, I guess it's just part of hobby- and I'm sure if i do get a decent quality pump, it'll last me for years, and I'll probably be glad i have it, and wonder how I ever lived without it..... 

(The air-compressor work-around was only before I got my frame pump.... I had no way to inflate my tires when I first got my bike, and I had no intentions of waiting a week or two for a pump to come before I could ride it )


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

SolitaryRider said:


> Yeah.....I guess I'll just have to give in and buy a floor pump. It's not so much the expense that bothers me, as it is having to have yet more "stuff". -and something that is basically only useful for one very specific thing, at that. But, like all the other stuff I've bought for the bike, I guess it's just part of hobby- and I'm sure if i do get a decent quality pump, it'll last me for years, and I'll probably be glad i have it, and wonder how I ever lived without it.....
> 
> (The air-compressor work-around was only before I got my frame pump.... I had no way to inflate my tires when I first got my bike, and I had no intentions of waiting a week or two for a pump to come before I could ride it )


I totally understand the more stuff and limited purpose thing. But I'll be willing to wager that within two uses of your floor pump, it will be in the category of "why did I wait" sort of thing. But seriously, although there are some reasons for buying an expensive, high end floor pump, the cheap ones really work fine for 99% of us.


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## yuris (Oct 4, 2011)

my pump have both presta and schrader, so i can use it to pump a car as well.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Camilo said:


> I totally understand the more stuff and limited purpose thing. But I'll be willing to wager that within two uses of your floor pump, it will be in the category of "why did I wait" sort of thing. But seriously, although there are some reasons for buying an expensive, high end floor pump, the cheap ones really work fine for 99% of us.


I'd say you are right. It just seems like something I *should* have..... (I don't know why they just can't make a presta chuck for air compressors though.... Ya know, I only recently got an air compressor- before, everything was a work-around for not having that. Now that I have one, I thought my days of buying pumps were over. Oh well...just as well, as a nice floor pump would make life a lot easier than would bringing the bike to the compressor or the compressor to the bike all the time...)



yuris said:


> my pump have both presta and schrader, so i can use it to pump a car as well.


Ya know...I didn't realize that you could inflate a car tire with one of these pumps- but I guess if you can inflate a bicycle tire to 120psi with one.....topping up my van's leaky tire to 50psi should be do-able! Now I want one! (It's a pain dragging out the compressor...firing it up and waiting for it to build up pressure...just to put a few pounds in the van tire...)

Now I feel better....a pump will now do at least 2 tasks for me!


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

SolitaryRider said:


> I'd say you are right. It just seems like something I *should* have..... (I don't know why they just can't make a presta chuck for air compressors though.... Ya know, I only recently got an air compressor- before, everything was a work-around for not having that. Now that I have one, I thought my days of buying pumps were over. Oh well...just as well, as a nice floor pump would make life a lot easier than would bringing the bike to the compressor or the compressor to the bike all the time...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


High school physics was 40+ years in the past, but I don't think it's going to be that easy to inflate a car tire to 36 psi with a Topeak mini pump. I suspect that it takes a hell of a lot more volume of air to inflate a P235/75R 17" SUV tire to 36 psi, than it does to inflate a 700 x 23 mm tube to 120 psi.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

mpre53 said:


> High school physics was 40+ years in the past, but I don't think it's going to be that easy to inflate a car tire to 36 psi with a Topeak mini pump. I suspect that it takes a hell of a lot more volume of air to inflate a P235/75R 17" SUV tire to 36 psi, than it does to inflate a 700 x 23 mm tube to 120 psi.


It can be done. I've done it (with a floor pump, not a minipump). You're right, it's a whole hell of a lot more air. Takes a lot of strokes. But it can be done, in a pinch.

SR, the floor pump has a functional advantage over the compressor, because of its slowness. You're a lot less likely to explode a tube that's been pinched under the bead, or pop a badly-seated tire off the rim.

And you can toss it in the car if you take the bike somewhere.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

I've pumped up a full sized pickup truck tire with my floor pump. It took about 30 or 45 minutes, IIRC (this was in the early 90s). I set up a chair and angled the pump so I could get into a "long slow distance" sort of effort without stooping over to pump and it worked out OK. Good enough to get me into town to get the tire fixed.

Now I have an electric "Inflator" (plugs into the cig. lighter) and an actual small compressor. Live and learn, more stuff though.

I don't think I'd use the compressr on the the road bike tires even if it had a presta fitting. It's such a small volume and it takes 30 seconds with a hand pump. Maybe 32mm or above tires, but again, the effort to do it by hand is so small that it's not a meaningful effort saved.


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## RoadBoy1 (Oct 1, 2011)

Zefal makes a dial type hand guage that is accurate. As for floor pumps I have and use the Spacialized Air Tool floor pump and that guage is spot on for road bike tires (can't vouch for mtb tires because I don't have a mountain bike).

The only floor pump I have heard bad things about are the Parks. From reviews and talking with people who have owned and used the Park pumps they are good pumps but the built-in guage on that pumps sucks.

Any LBS will have the Zefal hand guage and they cost approx. $10.00. Good luck.


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## velocanman (Jul 15, 2011)

I also agree with the earlier comment that 90 psi sounds low for a max pressure on 25 mm tire. 

Is this a road or cross tire?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I agree with others, you just need to get a nice floor pump with a gauge, Walmart sells a Zefal floor pump for about $19 and it comes with a gauge. I've been using one of those for about a year now and so far no problems and the gauge is accurate. Amazon.com: Zefal Floor Pump: Sports & Outdoors Can you buy better floor pumps? yes, but if you're on a tight budget this is a great deal.

Also there is a large size mini pump that works very well that comes with a gauge for about $25 called the Topeak Morph G. The G stands for gauge. The gauge is accurate enough, but it's the easiest of all the mini pumps to get a tire up to pressure. It comes with a fold out foot peg and L handle, plus a hose so you don't risk tearing the valve. See: Amazon.com: Topeak Mini Morph Bike Pump: Sports & Outdoors You could buy this instead of a floor pump and use it as one and as a on the bike pump, but the gauge is kind of small to see real well.

Tire pressure can't be judged by a 15% thing another poster was jawing about, who's going to be the judge whether it's 15% or not? If you can do that then you can tell how full your tires are by simply squeezing them with your fingers! It can't be done. But you can input some basic info (bike + rider weight) into a online tire calculator like this one; but use the second calculator not the first and third; see: Bicycle tire pressure calculator


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Well, guys, I ended up just ordering one of these little gauges today, as I was ordering some other stuff from Amazon:

Amazon.com: AccuGage Tire Pressure Dial Gauge (160psi, Presta Valve): Sports & Outdoors

But when I go to town tomorrow or Wednesday, I'll see if my Wal*Mart has the Zefal floor pump. I believe I saw it there a while back...was leary though, as the Bell frame pump I bought there was a POS and I had to return it- getting the Topeak Pocket Rocket Master Blaster (that's sure a mouthfull, for a little pump!) from Amazon instead- which works nicely, but doesn't have a gauge nor a hose.....and I already broke one valve with the POS Bell pump....so I really do appreciate the idea of having a pump with a hose- and was in fact just thinking that today as a reason to definitely get a floor pump. 

I'm dying to see how accurate my estimation has been. I've been airing the tires just so the sidewalls have some give when I squeeze them, but not enough that i could really make a major dent. 

And yes, I thought 90psi sounded a little low, too- as I know most tires in this size seem to carry about 120psi, no? But 90 is what they say on the sidewall. I'll see when I get my gauge or pump what 90 really feels like, and use my judgement- seeing as i weigh 220, I'd say it'd be better to err and put a little too much air than too little.


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## tystevens (Jul 10, 2008)

Seems like my 25x700 Gatorskins have a recommended psi around 90 or so. But I don't want any pinch flats, so at my weight, I run the rear around 120 and the front about 100. Comfort is fine, I get good mileage out of the tires, and I haven't had a pinch flat in a few years.

And I agree with all of the above on the floor pump. With the small volume of air in a road tire, I can't see how you'd even do it with an air compressor -- seems like it would go from empty to full as quick as you put the hose to the valve. I spent about $25 at Sports Authority for my floor pump.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

You won't pinch flat if you use this calculator (the middle one)I posted earlier: Bicycle tire pressure calculator

Running too much pressure actually slight reduces the efficiency.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

I just picked up the Zefal pump at Wal*Mart. Not bad for $20! 

Haven't had a chance to use it yet though.......

I dunno, Froze- the middle calculator says my front should be 76psi and the rear 140! I ain't doing that!

Bottom one says 102psi...that sounds about right to me.


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## tystevens (Jul 10, 2008)

Well, that calculator isn't far off from what I normally run, FWIW.

I agree that too much air isn't always a good thing. However, I tend to air my tires up to the high side (of course, I'm not talking about super-high pressure) for a couple reasons. 1, I don't really like the feel of any squish in my tires; I'd rather have a harsher ride. And 2, I'd rather have somewhat less efficiency and a harsh ride than have any pinch flats!


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

I prefer a hard tire too. Now that I have a pump with a gauge, I'll have to see what 90psi feels like and go from there.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2011)

froze said:


> You won't pinch flat if you use this calculator (the middle one)I posted earlier: Bicycle tire pressure calculator
> 
> Running too much pressure actually slight reduces the efficiency.


those numbers seem _crazy_ low to me. The calculator recommends 70 rear / 56 front on 700x25s given 55/45% weight distribution and 150lb combined rider and bike weight. 

I ride 90/80 rear/front and some local bike shop said that was too low and that I should increase that to 110/100**, which would be 55% higher than the numbers from the calculator 

Their numbers for 32mm tires are even more ridiculous: 59/39 rear/front based on 170lb combined, 60/40% rear/front (based on my commuter bike w/ loaded rear rack). In reality I do more like 70/50 on that bike. I once recall running as low as 60/40 (when I got lazy w/ pumping air in the tires) and it felt like riding through mud...


** I ignored their advice...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

SolitaryRider said:


> I just picked up the Zefal pump at Wal*Mart. Not bad for $20!
> 
> Haven't had a chance to use it yet though.......
> 
> ...


You may not like what it says, but it is right for the split, the other calculators are not right, you should never use the same psi in both tires because of the load % being carried by each tire. But you do what you want.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PhotonFreak said:


> those numbers seem _crazy_ low to me. The calculator recommends 70 rear / 56 front on 700x25s given 55/45% weight distribution and 150lb combined rider and bike weight.
> 
> I ride 90/80 rear/front and some local bike shop said that was too low and that I should increase that to 110/100**, which would be 55% higher than the numbers from the calculator
> 
> ...


Those numbers are spot within 5psi! If you are weighing yourself with all your cycling clothes on and add in the bike weight with everything on the bike including water then the results are within 95% correct. This calculator was designed based on years of scientific studes and Michelin agreed the ratios and the PSI levels was absolutely correct for clincher tires for max performance. But you have the right to ignore it.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

I may prefer a hard tire, but I'm not putting 140psi in a tire that says 90 max on the sidewall. (100 or 110 I might do....)

Question: How do you know what percentage of your weight is front/back?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I think it's important to remember a couple of things re: tire pressures. 

Calculators and charts are _guides_ or _starting points_ (not gospel), because a number of factors beyond tire size and rider weight alone enter into the equation, making experimentation a key element to finding one's optimal f/r pressure. 

For example, tire construction, rider style and road conditions all play a part, and IMO the text in Michelin's chart does a good job of summing up why experimenting is important - to find the pressure that best balances grip, efficiency, comfort and durability.

My advice is to start at a reasonable PSI, using the charts/ calculators as guides and from there tailor based on personal preferences and the criteria listed above and in Michelin's chart.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

SolitaryRider said:


> I may prefer a hard tire, but I'm not putting 140psi in a tire that says 90 max on the sidewall. (100 or 110 I might do....)
> 
> Question: How do you know what percentage of your weight is front/back?


huh? the ratio is figured automatically in the calculator site I gave you. Use the middle calculator, the first and third ones are too complicated, the middle one does everything for you if enter your total cycling clothed weight plus bike with all accessories weight it will give you an accurate air pressure based on the weight distribution. Now if you really want it accurate you would put the bike with you sitting on it with a scale on the front and a scale on the rear and have someone hold you in place then use the last calculator...that's kind of a pain and impractical.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

No, what I meant was: How do you whether to use 40/60 or 45/55%? (The middle calc gives you the option of either)

As for that top calc...hehe....picture a cartoon of a guy walking his bike along a dessert road toward a city at the horizon, saying "I remembered the pump and the patch kit, but I had no way to see how much weight was on each wheel after I fixed the flat!". I hate Freudian terms/ideas, but sometimes I think bicycle people have a tendency to be too "anal". [*Not* referring to you, Froze]


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

SolitaryRider said:


> No, what I meant was: How do you whether to use 40/60 or 45/55%? (The middle calc gives you the option of either)
> 
> As for that top calc...hehe....picture a cartoon of a guy walking his bike along a dessert road toward a city at the horizon, saying "I remembered the pump and the patch kit, but I had no way to see how much weight was on each wheel after I fixed the flat!". I hate Freudian terms/ideas, but sometimes I think bicycle people have a tendency to be too "anal". [*Not* referring to you, Froze]



Not referring to me? Huh huh! Anyway, if you read the other sites it refers you to another web site where you will discover that the 40/60 is for a road bike in racing form, and the 45/55 is a road bike used for randonneur purposes.

Anal? Look; all my road bikes weigh within 3 pounds of each other, and use the same size tires, so to remember the PSI for front and rear on those is like trying to remember your date of birth; I just generalize the PSI and use the same for all of the road bikes instead of dinking with three pounds of weight between the bikes. My touring bikes use larger tires and hence the PSI is different, so now that's like trying to remember my wife's date of birth. And the cartoon is silly, because why would his weight change for each wheel after fixing flat? 

Before I got frame pumps that had built in psi gauges I just estimated the psi after I pumped up from fixing a flat, can't be anal when your guessing like that!


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2011)

froze said:


> Those numbers are spot within 5psi! If you are weighing yourself with all your cycling clothes on and add in the bike weight with everything on the bike including water then the results are within 95% correct. This calculator was designed based on years of scientific studes and Michelin agreed the ratios and the PSI levels was absolutely correct for clincher tires for max performance. But you have the right to ignore it.


Perhaps my next ride I will try out lower pressure and see what happens. You're right though I didn't conside weight of >1.5 liters of water and patch kit/tools/etc-- I was considering my clothed weight + the weight of unloaded bike w/ no bottles or saddle-bag. If I consider the water/other accessories I should add another ~4lb. Note that the numbers I chose to ignore were the ones advised by the bike shop guys. My usual tire pressures are actually "splitting the difference" between their numbers and the numbers recommended by Michelin. My next ride I'll try "splitting the difference" again and running something more like 80/70 rear/front.



> No, what I meant was: How do you whether to use 40/60 or 45/55%? (The middle calc gives you the option of either)


My thought on this was that 60%/40% ratio is appopriate for more upright riding position bikes like Hybrids or Mountain bikes, or touring bikes w disproportionate cargo loads on rear racks. Road bikes w/ lower riding position (more weight on the handlebars) would be closer to 55%/45% rear/front weight distribution.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Ah! O-K! If I plug in 45/55%, then I get 98/f, 120/rr....now THAT sounds more like it. Thans.

[Writes note on legal-style pad "Uses rational logic to analyze cartoons"]


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

PhotonFreak said:


> My thought on this was that 60%/40% ratio is appopriate for more upright riding position bikes like Hybrids or Mountain bikes, or touring bikes w disproportionate cargo loads on rear racks. Road bikes w/ lower riding position (more weight on the handlebars) would be closer to 55%/45% rear/front weight distribution.


I was actually thinking that the 40/60 was if you tend to sit towards the rear of the seat and ride with hands on top of the bars....and 45/55 if you sit toward the front and ride in drop position!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

SolitaryRider said:


> [Writes note on legal-style pad "Uses rational logic to analyze cartoons"]


I don't use a legal style pad to write rational logic down with, this is the computer age-I use a computer to analyze cartoons with! The nerve of some people!!


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> I think it's important to remember a couple of things re: tire pressures.
> Calculators and charts are _guides_ or _starting points_ (not gospel), because a number of factors beyond tire size and rider weight alone enter into the equation, making experimentation a key element to finding one's optimal f/r pressure.
> For example, *tire construction, rider style and road conditions all play a part*, and IMO the text in Michelin's chart does a good job of summing up why experimenting is important - to find the pressure that best balances grip, efficiency, comfort and durability.My advice is to start at a reasonable PSI, using the charts/ calculators as guides and from there tailor based on personal preferences and the criteria listed above and in Michelin's chart.


These are important points you've made.



> You won't pinch flat if you use this calculator


I'm sure Froze realizes this statement was an over-simplification and an exaggeration. You can get a pinch flat at _any_ pressure, with any tire size and rider weight, if you hit the right obstacle at the right speed. You can be riding on nice fat tires with more than adequate pressure, and if you hit a pothole hiding under a puddle you could pinch flat and even bust a rim. Riding conditions and riding style must be considered when deciding on tire pressures.


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## hdbiker (Aug 2, 2010)

I got almost 4000 miles on my Gator Skins this season. I put 100 psi in the front and 110 psi in the back. I had only one flat this year. I think if I had rotated the tires, I could have gotten at least 4500. 
When I changed them, the front probably had plenty of miles left on it. I'm keeping it for emergencies. The back tire had no thread showing, it just showed a flattened surface edge. I decided not to push my luck.
BTW, this was the first year that I didn't pump before every ride. I only did so every third ride. I was riding almost every day. Every time I checked, I had only lost 3 or 4 psi. in those 3 days.
Gator Skins are great!!!!! Whatever you do, don't use Forte tubes.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Wow! This Zefal pump works great!

Turns out, my tires were ridiculously under-inflated....got 'em at about 100F/120rr now. 

I also used the pump to top up the tires on my motorscooter, and even for the leaky tire on my van (It took a bit of doing to it from 25lbs to 50lbs....and I'm still undecided if it isn't just worth dragging the compressor out for that...but the pumping was easy, and it actually did it! -just took a good 5 minutes...and a lot of strokes)

That was $20 well-spent!


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

My freaking Accu-gauge, which I had ordered before I got the Zefal pump, had arrived- and I tried using it today.... what a piece of crap! I tried it first on the rear tire- got a reading of 100 lbs. which seemed accurate to me- and I though the gauge was quite nice at that point. Tried it on the front wheel...couldn't get a reading. Tried it on the rear again...no reading! LSS: It worked ONE time and that was it! 

What is it with bicycle tire gauges???!!!!!!

Anyway- I aired up my tires with the good old Zefal pump, to 100psi each (well the rear already had 100 psi- down from 120- so I just aired the front, which was down to about 60)- and I took my first real road ride today....and my Bikesdirect Galaxy rode like a Cadillac! (A Cadillac like they used to make...not the junk they make today!).


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

SolitaryRider said:


> My freaking Accu-gauge, which I had ordered before I got the Zefal pump, had arrived- and I tried using it today.... what a piece of crap! I tried it first on the rear tire- got a reading of 100 lbs. which seemed accurate to me- and I though the gauge was quite nice at that point. Tried it on the front wheel...couldn't get a reading. Tried it on the rear again...no reading! LSS: It worked ONE time and that was it!
> 
> What is it with bicycle tire gauges???!!!!!!
> 
> Anyway- I aired up my tires with the good old Zefal pump, to 100psi each (well the rear already had 100 psi- down from 120- so I just aired the front, which was down to about 60)- and I took my first real road ride today....and my Bikesdirect Galaxy rode like a Cadillac! (A Cadillac like they used to make...not the junk they make today!).


That's weird about that gauge, obviously send it back. Reminds me of time I bought a SKS Puro mini pump. It was neat looking lightweight pump with a fantastic idea of building in a PSI gauge on the internal rod so every time you pulled, or I should extended the pump arm the PSI could easily be read, plus the pump fastener was the best I've ever seen! But after about 700 strokes I could only get the psi up to about 65 which was enough to get home. However on the second flat it broke and wouldn't go above 40PSI. Fortunately, SKS has an outstanding service dept and they sent me a new SKS Raceday Carbon mini pump for replacement and told me to just throw the old pump away...I cheated, I didn't throw it away, I use it as a paperweight at work!!! Not sure why SKS continues to market that pump because I'm nowhere near the first person to complain about it.

Anyway I hope you have as much success as I did returning your gauge.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Aww, thanks, Froze.

I just took the gauge apart while I was making a cup of tea (I had it sitting on the kitchen counter)-I think I fixed it....but won't know for sure till I test it out on the bike tire. There's a little metal disc inside that rests on a spring- seems like it got stuck inside it's bore and wouldn't extend...and that is the thing that presses the stem in to get an air ample from the tire. 

I don't know what it is, but I've been getting an unusual amount of defective items when it comes to bicycle accessories! I rarely have to ever return any other kind of products. And i try not to buy junk...but for some reason, it seems half the bike stuff I've been buying- even name-brand stuff that has good reviews, ends up being defective or shoddily-made. (Good thing I'm not into cycling jersies yet....I'd probably experience wardrobe failure! )


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Wardrobe failure? That may make your bike ride interesting to on lookers! Actually I've had the reverse fortunes of you. Most things I've bought over the internet and at LBS's have been good. Of course I had a few issues like the Puro pump. I did buy a helmet and it was broken when I got it so I sent it back and they sent me a new one. Problem with today's products is that more and more stuff is being made in China, the materials are being downgraded with cheaper components to make the item; so it's almost like we're being forced to spend more money on a particular item to get a better built item. The helmet I bought is a real nice Lazer helmet that fits me perfectly (the only helmet I could find that did), and the fit adjustment strap lock was broken allowing the adjustment not to lock in place. When I examined the clip it was cheap thin plastic that if twisted just right would break it, so I got two small zipties and locked the cheap plastic part down so it wouldn't bend yet still allow for adjustment. Keep in mind, this was a $120 helmet (I got it on closeout for $45). The idea behind making crap is simply to keep dollars flowing out of our pockets and into the economy, and this idea is something that has happened with a lot of products not only in cycling but in the rest of the world we live and buy in. There are some companies still keeping with the well made philosophy, like Sigma, Cygolite, Topeak, Park and others.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

I guess it's a trade-off, too, Froze. I think if we had to pay for really good quality stuff, we'd have to purchase a lot less. But there does come a point at which certain standards should not be breeched. I mean, how much more would it cost them to put a little brass pin in a pump head instead of a cheesy plastic one? Stuff like that kills me- little things that could make products so much better, and only add cents to the price. But it certainly is frustrating when you purchase things that are supposed to be of high quality, and they are made like junk.

I'm with ya on the Sigma stuff! I had intially purchased on of their speedometers for my scooter (It's a Chinese scooter- and the speedometers on them are notoriously inaccurate)- I was so impressed with the speedo for $13 (One case of something cheap being made well- which leads me to believe maybe it's not necessarily about money, but rather business philosophy and competence....) that I couldn't wait to get the same speedo when I got my bike. 

Quality of things overall does seem to be declining though- I used to buy a lot of generic/store brand grocery items...and they used to be as good or even better than the name brands. As of late, I've had to switch to the name brands, as the generic/store-brand stuff has declined in quality seriously. If this keeps up, we'll be living in a third-world country soon...without going anywhere.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I have a weird philosophy(s?) about cheaply built stuff, and that is why build something cheap only to throw away where it ends up in a land fill? why not build better stuff that can be rebuilt? When I was kid there was cottage industry of a bunch of small business owners that fixed small kitchen appliances, TV's, radio's, etc, now we just toss after 2 or 3 years and buy another. I would rather spend $100 for something that would last 30 years then $40 for the same thing that will last only 5 years, and then be able to take that broken thing and get it fixed and keep using it afterwards. 

It would only seem logical that all this manufacturing going on to make cheap crap that last only a few years is more damaging to the environment and natural resources. 

Like I said I'm weird for thinking that way.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

froze said:


> I have a weird philosophy(s?) about cheaply built stuff, and that is why build something cheap only to throw away where it ends up in a land fill? why not build better stuff that can be rebuilt? When I was kid there was cottage industry of a bunch of small business owners that fixed small kitchen appliances, TV's, radio's, etc, now we just toss after 2 or 3 years and buy another. I would rather spend $100 for something that would last 30 years then $40 for the same thing that will last only 5 years, and then be able to take that broken thing and get it fixed and keep using it afterwards.
> 
> It would only seem logical that all this manufacturing going on to make cheap crap that last only a few years is more damaging to the environment and natural resources.
> 
> Like I said I'm weird for thinking that way.


Not weird at all! 

I agree 100%. It made more sense ec onomically and every other way. Used to be, when your TV went haywire, you could take a few tubes down to the hardware store and test them out, and get a few new ones to replace the bad ones...and VIOLA[sic]! I got to see the tail end of those days as a kid. 

Toys were passed down to younger relatives when you got too old for them. Today, they break in 6 month.

I was just thinking too, about Chinese stuff. It seems that a lot of their stuff has improved in quality over the last few years- but I've noticed that it is mainly the stuff that they import and sell here directly- while the Chinese stuff that is made for stores like Wal*Mart, or for many of the name-brand manufacturers (Made in China and branded as one of our old "reliable" name brands) tends to be made more shoddily. 

I'm really impressed with Tao Tao Chinese scooter- but the made-in-China Schwinn brand pump I initially bought at Wally World was pure junk. 

Or look even at American-made things: Take a Ford diesel pick-up truck from 25 years ago. A simple, reliable diesel, with a mechanical injection pump- it would run if your battery was stone cold dead...had no electronics....was easy to maintain...could run it on veggie erl(oil) and got great MPGs. Now, the last few years, they've complicated them so much with computerized injection and emission controls up the wazoo and a bunch of other crapola....so the once simple, reliable diesel is now getting as bad or worse mileage than it's gas counterpart and requires highly specialized equipment and mechanics to maintain and repair....and they won't run if your battery craps out- and don't DARE run 'em on veggie erl! Yet people will go out and pay $60K for a pick-up truck with one of these new abominations that gets 8MPG......

It's insanity. 

And then we get into the ideas of "Why take care of anything if it's going to break in a year, anyway?"- and I think it's already to the point where even if the current generation suddenly had well-built quality products, they wouldn't take care of them nor maintain them, because they're already so used to this disposable society.

Funny- I have an ancient Milwaukie drill that a now-deceased elderly friend had rescued from a scrap-metal recycler, put new brushes in and gave to me back in the 80's. That darn thing has been leaking oil for the last 20 years...but it just keeps on going and going. I would have fixed it, but it's so big and heavy that I really don't use it anymore...but it's in my shed, come the day I ever need it....... I just can't help but thinking how somebody had just thrown it out....but how it still had so many years of life left in it. 

IMO, we are past the pinnacle of our civilization and are now in serious decline.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kindred spirits, rare on these forums.

I hate newer cars, I hate anything newer then 81! I do own a 98 Ford F150 Supercab only because we needed a truck that had rear seating. And I searched for about 8 months looking for a basic 6 cylinder with no options other then air and found one about 5 years ago and the wife drives it. My own main car is a 72 Chrysler Newport!! It's in mint condition, but I like the beast because I can fix it myself and parts are cheap; and the darn thing gets 20mpg on the highway! I have some older cars as well that are more or less a collection thing, and another that I use for drag racing and street use-a 79 Chevy Z28 with a 383 Stroker.

Not sure of or about the brand of scooter you have but I've heard many dangerous and alarming problems with Chinese scooters, in addition to difficulty getting replacement parts, maybe yours is the top of the line Chinese scooter.

The automotive industry made cars back in the 70's that got 30mpg, including a Honda 600 that got 70! That car is as large as the Smart Car that only gets 41mpg highway? They had a slew of cars back in the 80's that got 40mpg and more. And today we're incapable of doing that without expensive complicated hybrid systems? I don't get it. I also don't understand why the need for all the tools just to fix a car; and why do you have to remove the bumpers, grills, headlights, frame support beams just to get a radiator out. They try to make it impossible for a backyard mechanic to fix their own car. Personally I think we're being sold a bill of goods!

Personally I try (though admittedly it's nearly impossible) not to buy stuff made in China. I don't like their politics, and I don't like the fact their building a military with the sole purpose to take us on. I have nothing against the people of China, in fact most of them are very warm, friendly, hard working people, it's the political regime I have problems with. And that same political regime is poisoning their own people with massive pollution going into the air and water and cancer rates have skyrocketed in China among other disease related deaths associated with pollution. And their pollution comes across the Pacific via air currents down over San Francisco and follows the San Joaquin valley and hangs over the Bakersfield area which now has the highest particulate pollution in the US. It's only been in the last 3 years with China's water supply in peril that China has decided to figure out a way to control water pollution.

I wouldn't throw that drill out either! Sure with today's battery powered drills you have more versatility, but you will never have as much power as an old electric drill like the one you have. Those old drill will not stall. They do (or use to?) make a drill press device that looks like a drill press table, and you simply take a electric drill and fasten into the press and the drill will operate like a press. Maybe you could find a new life for it in that manner?

But you're right, it is insane.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh, man, Froze- I'm not generally a Chrysler fan...but I LOVE those old Newports! Newports and those pre-72 Dodge pick-ups! 

I have a 98 Ford E150!(van)- I wouldn't have a car that new either- but I do believe the pre '03 Ford trucks were still serious trucks. I think they made them with an eye toward fleet customers- 'cause I know my van is not only quite easy to work on, but has 270K miles on it, with no real work ever being done to it, and still runs like new. Couldn't say that about any cars from the last 25 years though. 

As a back-up vehicle, I had bought an 83 Chevette a while back- for $500, and it had a brand new motor in it, and was from Georgia- so is still really solid- I've never in my life driven a small car, but I couldn't resist the 'Vette, what with the gas prices and my van only getting about 12MPG....but now I have an '00 diesel 4x4 F350 in the works, and I'll be selling the 'Vette. (Loved the retro aspect of it, and the simplicity and economy.... but small cars just aren't me!)

I've always wanted an old car....like a mid 60's Pontiac Tempest or leMans, or an early 60's 4-door Fairlane....but the prices on anything old these days....I guess we're not the only ones who appreciate them. I'm glad you actually drive yours! I hate to see when people just make shrines of old cars.....making them more perfect than when they were new, and just keeping them in the garage or on a trailer to look at- what a waste!

Yeah, I certainly don't agree with the poilitics of China either- but then if I were to only buy from places who politics I agreed with, I'd pretty much have to make everything from scratch myself. I buy from whoever offers the best product to fit my needs at the best price- I mean, you have to consider that it was largely us- the USA, that is responsible for China becoming the supplier of the world- as our own politicians destroyed our own industries by making it so we have the 2nd highest corporate income tax in the world (and ultimately, the consumer pays that tax); by over-regulating business and industry here so much that it would make Stalin envious (The average business owner here has to deal with 29 different government agencies!) and by enacting policies that have created a "global economy"- things like NAFTA and CAFTA and even recognizing communist China to begin with- which is so hypocritical- I mean, we can't dare buy a cigar from Cuba, but we can fill our country with everything under the sun from another communist country?!)- So I just figure I'll deal with whoever offers me the best deal, and leave the politics to the creepy politicians and those who vote for them. I'm not going to change the world either way, and I actually try and avoid American-made things these days, because they are usually very over-priced and shoddily made. That's just the reality of the situation. I agree with you in spirit....but I'm not going to penalize myself because of what our politicians do. (On the other hand, if I can get something old from the good old day that was made in America...I'll jump at it!)

And yes, it does seem like a very rare thing that two people such as ourselves should be in agreement on a bicycle forum. I don't know what it is...but it seems most of the "bicycle people" I've ever met were rather liberal lefties. (Not that I'm a "righty"- I'm a libertarian/constitutionalist -very conservative, but believing that government should have a minimal role in things, and that people should be free to live their conscience before God- even if I do not approve of their choices). 

Hey, if ya have any pics of that Newport handy, I'd love to see it!

Oh yeah...and my Chinese scooter: Yeah, hehe...I know the reputation "Chinese motorcycles" used to have. They've come a long way lately though- Mine isn't even a top of the line job- but I am amazed by the quality- and at a quarter of the price of a Japanese one, no less. I also have a Chinese ATV which is three years old...I use it almost every day to do chores and check fences and stuff and it has never given me a day's trouble- but the scooter, being a 2011 model and the same brand as the ATV, is even better- they really have improved in the last three years. I think part of the bad rep comes from the fact that you have to do some assembly on these vehicles yourself- they are shipped to you in a crate, and you have to assemble and do all the things that a dealer would normally do to a new unit (hence the great savings)....and I think that's where a lot of problems start- as many people just don't have a clue, or take the time to do things properly, and then they have trouble not because something was wrong with the vehicle, but because they didn't set it up properly. 

As pertaining to our conversation, what I like about these Chinese vehicles, is that the motors are clones of older technology. My scooter's motor is a clone of the ancient Honda GY6, and my ATV's is a clone of an old Yamaha- and the vehicles overall are rather simple, and easy to work on, and everything is easily accessible- whereas on the modern Japanese stuff, everything is hard to get at, and they tend to use the "latest and greatest" technology- stuff that is not user friendly. My neighbor bought a used Polaris ATV, from back when they were still being made here in the US- oh my goodness, what a mistake that was. He's got about $4500 into the darn thing- every time he uses it something else breaks. 

Well, I hope no one's mad that we've wandered so far off-topic, but hey, this is what makes forums so much fun! 

Very pleased to "meet" you.

-Richie

PS: Speaking of Chinese- have you checked out Harbor Freight tools lately? They've come a LONG way lately, too. I used to always buy Craftsman- but it seems like they've turned into junk over the last 10 years (and they're made in China too- now)- the HF stuff now seems like a huge step up- I'm slowly replacing all my Crapsman stuff with HF.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

PPS: Froze, I love your signature! I'm a HUGE dog-lover. (Again, another anomaly for cyclists...I guess because dogs chase us... I usually stop and pet them.)


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I haven't tried any Harbor Freight stuff in a long time since about 15 years ago or so when I needed water pump to get some water out of a pool, it lasted till the pool was drained, but then it quit, I took it back. Though I am thinking of getting a small solar panel to attempt to use for when I tour to charge up battery related stuff; and I think HF sells that stuff for far less then other places I've seen.

Tool wise I only use Proto, SK, and Challenger, and very few Craftsman stuff. None of the Proto, or SK, or the Challenger stuff has ever broken in over 30 years of use. I never buy packaged set of tools, I only buy the tool I need at the time I need it, thus I don't have a bunch of tools laying around that never get used. I do the same thing with cycling tools. I would be leery of Chinese made tools. If you break a socket or wrench while applying force you could break more then the tool, like fingers, hands, arms even. So I cannot recommend buying HF hand tools. American made tools are forged chromium steel. I'm just suggesting that you be careful. 

Of course I do buy stuff made in China but only because there's no choice on a lot of items. Like florescent light bulbs, anything with a fan in it, small kitchen appliances, toys for kids, you get the idea. For me it's not so much the politics although that's part of it, as it is about them building weapon systems to be used to attack us. Why? We're not going to attack them. Their upset with Taiwan, and our treaty with Taiwan says we will defend them if attacked, thus China takes that to mean that if they, China, attacks Taiwan we'll go after them. while that is true due to the treaty, but why do they feel the need to attack Taiwan other then pride? Taiwan isn't threatening them in any matter. If they leave Taiwan alone then there is no fear of a war between us. This stuff seems crazy to me, it's like the lunatics are running the insane asylum!

I can't figure out how to post pics, not computer literate by any means. But it looks exactly like this one: 1972 Chrysler Newport Royal 4 door | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Mine originally had a white or cream vinyl top but I had it taken off when I had it repainted because it was in bad shape, I have no plans on putting the top back on since it's not a collectors car. The paint is the same brown as the pic which was the stock color for my car.

I also have a 67 Ford Galaxy 500 conv, a 63 Studebaker Avante Supercharged, and a 58 Plymouth Fury Golden Commando. With classic cars falling in price I may buy another car if I can find a really good deal on something. I owned those last two cars for over 30 years and got them cheap, the Ford I've had for about 13 years at a killer of a deal price. The 63 and the 58 I don't drive but maybe 500 miles a year due to insurance restrictions. I also don't trailer them either, so I need to take a car to a show I drive it to the show. Insurance is expensive to get the kind that allows unlimited driving so since I don't drive them much anyway I don't see the point in spending the money on the insurance. But that's one of the reason so many show goers trailer their cars to the show.

This thing with me about older cars is why most of bikes are older too. Their easier to work on, are built more stout thus parts last far longer then modern stuff. None of my older bikes are worth a lot because by the time I thought about getting some older bikes these bikes went up in value so much I just don't think their worth it especially the Italian, British, and French bikes. So all of mine are the Japanese stuff that I got lucky and found cheap on Craigslist and even luckier that they fit me. Someday I would like to buy a older Italian job but not at current prices. This price thing is all thanks to E-bay, I see stuff on Craigslist going for more then it's worth and they mark it just a tad less then the exact item sold on e-bay, and they show the e-bay listing to prove their giving you a deal! Some deal.

I tried to swing the conversation back to bikes, but still nothing to do with tire pressure!! Sorry. But how much can be said about tire pressure anyways?

Likewise, I too am very pleased to meet you.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

SolitaryRider said:


> PPS: Froze, I love your signature! I'm a HUGE dog-lover. (Again, another anomaly for cyclists...I guess because dogs chase us... I usually stop and pet them.)


 HAHAHAH, you stop and pet them? That's too funny! If I were to stop and pet a dog that was chasing me more then likely they would get a hand steak!! I have two dogs I rescued from area pounds, one is pure breed Golden Retriever now 8 years old, and the other is a Chihuahua mixed with Pomeranian who is now 14 years old and still acts like a puppy...and a pig! That little mix thing is constantly wanting to eat and will steal food out of the trash when we're not looking and sneaks off behind the sofa where she keeps her secret stash. About once a week we have to go back behind the sofa and get trash she's been stealing...she's a horder!! She actually gets kind of down in the dumps for a day when we clean up her stash. The Golden it a lover boy, you know how those dogs are, so he constantly wants attention. I like pound dogs, you never know what your going to get! Besides, they need a home.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

froze said:


> HAHAHAH, you stop and pet them? That's too funny! If I were to stop and pet a dog that was chasing me more then likely they would get a hand steak!! I have two dogs I rescued from area pounds, one is pure breed Golden Retriever now 8 years old, and the other is a Chihuahua mixed with Pomeranian who is now 14 years old and still acts like a puppy...and a pig! That little mix thing is constantly wanting to eat and will steal food out of the trash when we're not looking and sneaks off behind the sofa where she keeps her secret stash. About once a week we have to go back behind the sofa and get trash she's been stealing...she's a horder!! She actually gets kind of down in the dumps for a day when we clean up her stash. The Golden it a lover boy, you know how those dogs are, so he constantly wants attention. I like pound dogs, you never know what your going to get! Besides, they need a home.


Ooo! I just now saw this post for the first time. For some reason, I stopped receiving notifications from this forum....

Yes...I really do stop and pet errant dogs most of the time- I can't resist! (I'm the same guy who brings biscuits or treats for my neighbor's dogs every time i go to his house....)

I love goldens- their personalities are just amazing. 

What a coincidence! I also have two rescued dogs- and they are 8 and 14 years old, too! One (the 8 year-old) is a black lab/chow mix, I rescued from a farmer who was going to shoot her (she was an unwanted stray on his place) and my 14 year-old is a canhardly ["Can hardly" tell what she is...but most people seem to think she's pit bull) whom I got from the largest no-kill shelter back when I lived in NY. My dogs give me more joy than anything in life.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

SolitaryRider said:


> Ooo! I just now saw this post for the first time. For some reason, I stopped receiving notifications from this forum....
> 
> Yes...I really do stop and pet errant dogs most of the time- I can't resist! (I'm the same guy who brings biscuits or treats for my neighbor's dogs every time i go to his house....)
> 
> ...


Man that's weird, you have two rescued dogs the same ages as mine.

I love animals, domesticated or not, though I wouldn't hesitate to kill one if my life depended on doing so for survival either for food or preservation of mine or my family's life. I was walking the dogs around the block one day and a purebred Pit Bull came running out toward my Retriever, I quickly took by locking blade out and had it opened ready to do a gut job and waited to see if this was a teeth attack or just a sniff attack... fortunately for the Pit it was just a sniff attack to see who the new dog in town was. So don't think that just because I love animals, I wouldn't hesitate to kill one. The owner called his Pit back and apologized, saw the knife and said he understood. When it comes to animals Indiana is nothing like California was where I use to live.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Ah! I am now getting notifications again! (And just as I was here doing some reading)

I know what you mean..... Once, back when I lived in NY, I was walking down a deserted street one night under the brooklyn-Queens Expressway and was passing this body shop where they had junk cars piled up high against their fence, enabling their 5 or 6 "junkyard dogs" to get over the fence...as I discovered when I was suddenly surrounded by them. 

I've never been one to be afraid of dogs....but these dogs were just nasty and ugly, and they meant business. I was truly scared, and if I had been carrying a gun, I wouldn't have hesitated to shoot them. As it was, i thought I was doomed, but figured I could try one thing....as either way, I was likely going to be mauled. I raised my hands up over my head and flailed my arms and turned from side to side as I roared as loud as I could...and to my relief and amazement, they took off down the block! Phewww! That was over 25 years ago....but I'll never forget it.

As a pit owner (or pit look-a-like owner) I take great care not to let mine get into situations where people will be on the defensive- as so many people are paranoid of large dogs to begin with...and especially of pits, that I would really fear for her safety. A lot of people just seem to unjustly hate the breed- thanks largely to all the negative press they get in the media- but i certainly would have done the same thing in your shoes, and would have protected my dog. 

Ironically, my neighbor (the guy whose dogs i always bring treats for) started feeding this stray golden retriever that had started coming around. One day, he comes home to find that the golden had grabbed this sweet medium-sized black dog that he kept tied on a trolley in his yard...pulled him out of his collar and carried him off and killed him!!! A golden!!! (My neighbor shot the golden) . Ironically, this is the same guy who has a vicious cocker spaniel....one of only two dogs to ever bite me (the one before that was a neighbor's terrier, when I was 5)


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I once saw a mangy scraggly golden retriever come out of a wooded area where a pond was with a some sort of half chewed animal in it's month. I could tell by looking at that dog he had been on the run in the wilds for a very long time. When he saw me he got this look like a wolf has when cornered, so I slowly backed way while he growled with this animal still in his month. I think if any dog, no matter the breed, is left to fend for itself in the wild and somehow manages to survive is going to be like any other wild dog like a wolf or coyote.

Back in the early 60's I lived in Goleta California for a year. And one day while playing in the parking lot of an apartment complex and not paying attention to what was going on around me, I heard this growl, I looked up to see about a dozen dogs surrounding me and the lead pack dog slowly coming at me with the others closing the circle. They got to about 4 or 5 feet from me when some guy came running out of the apartments screaming and charged those dogs...the dogs took off as fast as they could! I had a feeling I could have been those dogs dinner if that guy hadn't came out. I was only 8 at the time.


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