# FYI Grease And Carbon Seat Posts...



## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

... it would be nice if this were made a Sticky...

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/8835.0.html

*From Easton:

No grease on carbon posts. Grease contains certain minerals that can attack clear coats, can penetrate the resin matrix and could cause swelling of the composite laminate. Can you say "stuck seat post?" Don't use grease.
John G. Harrington
Vice president, bicycle products
Easton Sports, Inc. 

From Campagnolo:

No grease. In some cases it can be dangerous to use grease as the chemical composition can cause a reaction between materials. Besides, it increases the torque required to clamp the post.
Richard Storino
Campagnolo USA 

From Deda:

Absolutely no grease on carbon, ever. Also, do not use solvents to get old grease off, or to get old grease out of the seat tube. John Harrington of Easton and I believe that many solvent residues in the seat tube soften the gel coat of the carbon, then bond the gel coat to the inside of the seat tube, freezing the seat post in position for eternity.
Tom Franges
Deda Elementi North America tech support 

From Bontrager:

There are some petroleum greases that are slightly acidic. That acidity can attack the resin used in carbon-fiber construction (frames or posts). This same acidity can attack aluminum or steel frames components, too. However, most greases are engineered to be slightly basic. Neither Trek's nor Bontrager's carbon resin is affected by this acidity. The main reason we suggest you don't use grease on any seatpost inserted into a Trek OCLV frame is that there is not enough surface roughness inside the seat tube to ensure your post stays where you put it.
Scott Daubert
Trek team liaison*


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## felt35 (Jul 25, 2005)

I wonder what kerry thinks. I know he is big proponent of lubing all metal/metal contacts, although I'm not sure that stands true of carbon/metal interfaces. But this is interesting to say the very least.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Grease and CF*

The problem here is that there are a wide variety of greases on the market, and the base material and additives can be very mild or very aggressive relative to either the clear coat or the epoxy resin matrix of a CF part. As a result, the makers of CF parts can't get into the business of saying "this grease is OK, but that one isn't. The joke here is that you have CF crank sets, CF derailleur parts, CF brake levers, etc. and they are ALL continuously exposed to petroleum based lubricants. You don't see them disintegrating or otherwise suffering from the grease and oil. A CF post generally doesn't need grease as the clear coat is going to prevent any bonding with the metal (or CF) of a frame. Still, there are reports of CF posts seizing in frames, so one needs to take some sort of steps to deal with this. The post needs to be removed and cleaned on a regular basis, just in case.

Personally, I would not hesitate to put silicone grease on CF, because silicones are known for being quite inert to petroleum-based products. CF posts, however, tend to slip in the frame and so lubing the post is often not a good idea.


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## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Silicone*



Kerry Irons said:


> Personally, I would not hesitate to put silicone grease on CF, because silicones are known for being quite inert to petroleum-based products.


 This is what was recommended to me from IRD via a LBS recently regarding a carbon seatpost.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

http://www.valco-cp.com/Hylomar.htm

The Trek techies recommended this stuff to me for use on my seatpost in my OCLV frame. It works very well.


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## Road cyclist (Jan 15, 2005)

The Trek techies recommended this stuff to me for use on my seatpost in my OCLV frame. It works very well.[/QUOTE]

This stuff looks good for BB installation, but seatpost insertion? How difficult a time if any, do you have with extraction of your seatpost? Why not use car wax as a protective coat?


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## cyclevt (Aug 6, 2004)

*Phil Wood grease....*

the green stuff.... was ok'ed by a carbon post vendor (Carbon Concepts post). I asked if it was ok because of the really tight fit between the post and the seat tube.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Road cyclist said:


> The Trek techies recommended this stuff to me for use on my seatpost in my OCLV frame. It works very well.


This stuff looks good for BB installation, but seatpost insertion? How difficult a time if any, do you have with extraction of your seatpost? Why not use car wax as a protective coat?[/QUOTE]

Car wax is slippy; one of the main reasons why no grease is the rule with carbon posts or frames is that they slip. Hylomar doesn't set; it takes on a kind of sticky candle wax texture; stops the post from slipping and acts like grease preventing water ingress. The seat post will move when you need it to; its a bit like a spoon moving through treacle.

Good stuff.


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## The Puzzler (Sep 19, 2005)

*Chalk it up*

I was told by a person from Specialized that their tech staff is recomending chalk for all the various places where carbon fiber is clamped to either another metal or more carbon fiber. Yes, plain old sidewalk chalk like the kids use to decorate the street. Just color up the post. The chalk apparently acts as both an antibinding agent as well as increasing friction so clamps don't have to be as tight to stop slippage.


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## Synchronicity (Jul 29, 2003)

No one seems to be talking about what is important here.

The base polymer in almost all CF parts we see today is Epoxy resin. If my memory serves me correctly, that stuff is one of the most inert polymers around today... (besides solid teflon of course).

Some of you might be interested to take a look at this link, and select "epoxy" in the left column and "petroleum" in the right column, before simply guessing.  

http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/chemcomp.asp


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Cannondale even recommends to grease the inside of their carbon steerer in order to ease the installation of their propriety top cap plug. I also happen to have a carbon full suspension front fork on my MTB. There's all sorts of grease and oil going on inside there as well.

In regard to using solvents. Many manufacturers recommend using acetone and naphtha to remove grease and glue from carbon tubular rims. Some caution however in regards to the clear coat when applying regular over the counter solvents. Most carbon products that I've tried are okay, but the Campy carbon seat post for instance hazes over quite easily, even with Pedros Biodegreaser. Try the solvents first on some hidden spot first to be sure and keep exposure times as short as possible.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

That's correct, but there appears to be some element of scare involved with exposing carbon to greases, etc.


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## Anti-gravity (Jul 16, 2004)

divve said:


> Cannondale even recommends to grease the inside of their carbon steerer in order to ease the installation of their propriety top cap plug. I also happen to have a carbon full suspension front fork on my MTB. There's all sorts of grease and oil going on inside there as well.


My understanding of not greasing carbon posts was because of potential slipping in the frame. I think that's far more likely to happen the the grease actually breaking apart the expoxy between the fibers. Plus most carbon posts are clear-coated, so the grease would have to get past that first.


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## The Puzzler (Sep 19, 2005)

*A little knowledge . . .*



Synchronicity said:


> No one seems to be talking about what is important here.
> 
> The base polymer in almost all CF parts we see today is Epoxy resin. If my memory serves me correctly, that stuff is one of the most inert polymers around today... (besides solid teflon of course).
> 
> ...


I just gotta reply to this one . . .

1) There are many different kinds of epoxy resins and they vary significantly in their chemistry. I have delaminated epoxy joints by just having them soak in seawater for a few days (cheaper epoxy, I hope, than that used in carbon fiber construction).
2) Most of the original discussion here was about damage to, and problems with the clear-coat, not the epoxy resins, so epoxy's chemical resistance is only one of the issues at play here.
3) Cole-Parmer's little table is all fine and dandy as a first pass, but under prolonged exposer and pressure (i.e., a clamped seat post or steer tube) lots of chemistry happens that would not be an issue during shorter exposure times.
4) All the theory in the world is great until it is tested in the field. Engineering is the starting point, not the end. No responsible engineer would claim that there is not a problem because theory says there isn't, when field use shows that there are problems, at least on occasion.

So, to sum up: There is plenty of field evidence to suggest that grease on carbon can lead to problems with clamping efficiency. So using grease on carbon increases the risk that your seat post or handlebars will slip or need to be over tightened to keep them from slipping. There is also field evidence to suggest that grease and other petroleum or even citrus solvents can physically and visually damage the clear-coat if not the carbon fiber.

Obviously, the use of grease leads to risk potential, not a certainty of problems. So, use grease at your own risk and be aware that if your seat post is slipping, you may need to adopt a different strategy, maybe even a new seat post. If you want minimal risk, don't use grease. Maybe try using chalk.


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## SDizzle (May 1, 2004)

Try this at home. If you have some carbon spacers lying around - or, just use those currently on your bike - grease them up. I habitually grease everything, and some of what I used to assemble/set my headset or race, stem/steerer intersection/stem bolts got on my spacers, and the clearcoat and laminate are slowly peeling off and the carbon "swelling." (It's not blowing up like the Michelin man, but it's definately no longer the same shape. Obvisouly, this wasn't very much grease - not even close to what you would slather on a seatpost.) These are Reynolds spacers, and I never use anything but Manitou Prep-M grease, for what it's worth. I'll take photos if anyone really wants them.

Obviously, I haven't compromised the structural integrity of my ride. Swollen spacers aren't going to cause a catastrophic failure. But it's a neat experiment, and certainly adds some veracity to the debate. Obviously, it doesn't say anything about other lubes, coatings, etc. If you must have lube, however, the engineer in me suggests dry graphite. It's effin' disgusting to work with, but it should work fine once in place.

Better yet, get a Thompson and quit whining. And you're fooling yourself if you think your carbon seatpost adds comfort to your ride.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

For some reason I have heck of time inserting 27.2mm Campy Record posts in my Colnago MXLs and CT2 ... Other 27.2mm seatpost seems to go in no problem yet Record posts I struggle with... I am wondering if Record posts are slightly bigger... I use regular grease on them and so far haven't noticed any problem yet. I at one point thought a Record Seatpost was stuck permanently to my MXL seat tube... once I got it off I promptly greased the post... and now I automatically grease them...

I wonder whether I should remove them to clean the grease off.


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## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

*Grease and carbon are not good bedfellows*

I learned this the hard way. I had been riding a well-lubed Woodman carbon seat post in an aluminium bike for a number of years and eventually the carbon went all mushy. It completely and utterly lost its structural integrity and ended up like a piece of papier mache. I used Miche H2No grease, which in retrospect was chancing my arm, but then again five years ago not everyone was aware of the dangers of exposing carbon to grease over extended periods. 
My story finished happily enough though: I broke my Woodman and replaced it with arguably the best seat post in the business – a Thomson Masterpiece. Only then did I realise how much the carbon post resembled a piece of spaghetti when under the slightest pressure.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

From new article from Zinn on velonews (
http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/9023.0.html) - letter from Calfee to Zinn

Dear Lennard, 
Thankfully! An opportunity to dispel the myth that one shouldn't grease a carbon post! I don't know where the myth started, but carbon composites are not affected by grease. Our advice is simple: If the seatpost fits tight, grease it. If it slips, de-grease it. As has been known for many years, when aluminum and carbon fiber contact each other, galvanic corrosion can start. That is why Calfee uses a fiberglass sleeve as a seat tube shim. Aluminum seat tube (or sleeve) and a carbon post will result in corrosion of the frame and possible seizure of the post within the frame. A carbon sleeve on an aluminum post will result in corrosion of the post. Salty environments accelerate this corrosion. Anodizing merely slows it down. About the only common chemical that will hurt carbon fiber is paint remover (which attacks the resin between the fibers). But there are many solvents that will dull a nice paint job. 
_Craig Calfee_
​


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## SPINDAWG (Aug 24, 2003)

*I usually use the copper based antifreeze*

the snap on kind,keeps corrosion from the alloy tubing,causing jamming.


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## vampares (Sep 1, 2005)

how about terpene based application?


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## omniviper (Sep 18, 2004)

did a search on this and all i can say is uh-oh....

i greased my post because of a lesson learned from a stuck post.

i never realized that CF reacted with aluminum too.

so im stuck then... if i dont grease my post, the CF will react with my alu frame which is really really thin (U2 tubing)

if i do, then the grease will react with the carbon and puff it up.

WTH? im using park tool poly lube 1000. i looked at the specs and no normal reactivity occurs


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## omniviper (Sep 18, 2004)

anyone?


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## Mdeth1313 (Nov 1, 2001)

tacx makes a paste that syntace now includes w/ their stems. It's a pinkish-reddish compound designed to be used where carbon is being clamped. I use it on my easton ec90 seatpost w/ my scandium frame. Works wonders. It feels gritty between the fingers, as there are tiny fibers that are designed to prevent slippage. I've used that stuff, and as recommended by others (and works just as well), toothpaste- does the same thing and gives your bike that minty fresh breath!

I belive FSA is coming out w/ their own compound- its on their website.


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## FLbiker (May 21, 2005)

*Carbon post*

I use a carbon post. I do not grease mine. I do however make a point to remove my post every couple thousand miles and wipe it down and wipe down the inside of the seat tube. Your mileage my vary, but the warmer, more humid area you are in and the more you sweat the more it will require frequent checks. If you are in a cool, dry area and rarely sweat, you may have little problem. I find that the biggest problem is the sweat that slowly works it way inside and the turns to salt dust. Once I clear it out, things are smooth again.


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## omniviper (Sep 18, 2004)

my worst fears has been confirmed. As cited from cyclingnews.com.

In some sense, the cycling world is still fumbling through the dark when it comes to the care and feeding of carbon fiber components, particularly in regards to installation. By now, most of us have realised that carbon parts can't generally be clamped as tightly as metal ones, and they simply don't clamp as well overall since their surfaces are often significantly more slippery. Moreover, the material tends to compress a bit when squished. Torque recommendations and appropriate tools are useful in preventing the aforementioned damage, but the lack of surface friction and carbon fiber's relative lack of compressive rigidity still leads some mechanics to overtighten parts in an effort to keep handlebars and seatposts from slipping.

FSA and Tacx now offer assembly compounds that could potentially save more than a handful of otherwise-doomed parts. The paste contains a suspension of tiny plastic beads that provide a claimed 30% increase in surface friction when clamped, which also translates into a concurrent reduction in clamping forces to achieve the same result without the compound. This is analogous to sprinkling sand in between parts but the plastic beads aren't abrasive and, thus, won't cause any damage (the beads simply compress under compressive load).

In addition, the assembly compounds also provide a measure of safe lubrication for easier movement when parts aren't cinched down. When unloaded, the plastic beads act as tiny ball bearings that can greatly facilitate seatpost adjustments, particularly in frames with tighter fits. Moreover, the paste also prevents water contamination into the seat tube around the post, much as grease is meant to on metal interfaces.

Granted, carbon fiber doesn't really corrode per se, but any mechanic worth their salt will quickly remind you that that can't be said about the aluminum frame or sleeve that that post is inserted into (check your carbon frame; oftentimes there's an aluminum sleeve in there). Much as many conventional lubricants will cause a carbon post to swell inside a frame and effectively increase in diameter, corrosion in an unprotected aluminum sleeve will effectively reduce its diameter and create the same, and rather unpleasant, result.

The new assembly compound isn't necessarily carbon-specific and can be used on any mating surface where an increase in clamping friction and/or a reduction in clamping force is desired. FSA is now including the new assembly compound with all of its carbon fiber seatposts, and both FSA and Tacx also offer the material separately.




SO carbon fiber really does corrode aluminum... i think ill just find an AL seatpost then...


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

The article says that aluminum corrodes. Aside from that, the assembly compound is abrasive contrary to their claims. I have been using the stuff for about a year. The section that you apply it on will look like it's sanded down after a while.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Go find an older Trek frame. Look at the forks near the dropouts. You'll see bubbles in the paint and corrosion on the dropouts. Big time. They learned about the reaction between aluminum and CF...I had a USE Alien seat post seize into an aluminum frame and it is not something you need to see. Scary trying to get the two apart without damaging one or both..
I now use dry graphite at any place where carbon and alu. are clamped together. Stops creaking, keeps things from getting stuck..and it's really messy to work with..Grease? No, I guess not..
Don Hanson


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## andreq (Sep 6, 2006)

Oh great now I'm all worried!

Not about my carbon post cause I don't grease that but about the king headset race on my new Easton EC90 fork. I slathered the grease on there (Finishline teflon) and If its now eating away at the most highly stressed part of my bike I have cause for concern. I will be removing it right away and installing it dry or with some graphite powder.

any recomendations for cleaning the grease off?


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