# Let's Discuss The Best of the Best



## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

Hi everyone, new here and would love to pick some brains, get some tips, some criticism, the usual forum charade.

I'm looking to purchase my first CF road bike and have been actively researching the topic for the past week or so.

I had a Pinarello Treviso (Campy) a few years back and loved the bike, it was a classic cycle. Currently, I'm riding a brand new Cinelli Supercorsa with Campy Super Record and also love it. The looks are classic, it feels great, I have nothing but praise for it

Well the bug has bit and I want to get a top-of-the-line CF bike.

So far, I'm looking at:

1) Colnago C59 Italia
2) Wilier Zero7
3) De Rosa Protos
4) De Rosa King RS Blue

I'm going to ride a Trek Madone this weekend and while I know it's a great bike, I want an Italian bike with Campy Super Record.

What are some thoughts/recommendations/suggestions/opinions/etc about the above-3 bikes?

I know these are the best bikes these companies have to offer, however, a lower-model might be more suited for me. I also know that at this point it might come down to personal taste/preference. These are all incredible bikes.

I don't do much climbing, and ride anywhere from 15-50 miles per ride.

Let's get a chat going! Thanks in advance


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## RyleyinSTL (Aug 6, 2012)

dakrisht said:


> Well the bug has bit and I want to get a top-of-the-line CF bike....





dakrisht said:


> ....however, a lower-model might be more suited for me.


I'd say you first need to figure out if only the top of the line will do. If so then why consider cheaper bikes?


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

You can't go wrong with either the Colnago or the Wilier. I personally don't know much about the DeRosa's. I considered the Colnago and the Wilier though recently. In terms of performance, the Wilier is absolutely great. the Colnago isn't bad but a lot of the Colnagos appeal is history and tradition and they sell just because of that heritage. Wilier had to hit a home run in performance to get buyers attention and they did with the Zero.seven. I didn't get it mostly because I was right in between sizes and I wanted a perfect fit for the money I was spending.

Take one for a test ride and you'll be very surprised.


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

RyleyinSTL said:


> I'd say you first need to figure out if only the top of the line will do. If so then why consider cheaper bikes?


Well, I don't know much about the differences, for example, between the Top-3 De Rosa bikes. I'm assuming they are minor difference (weight, certain geometry, etc.) but for me it's important to not only get the best bike but also the best bike for me.


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks for the input so far guys.

I'm leaning towards the Wilier, I just love the looks, engineering is top-notch, etc.

I'll definitely take each for a ride. I agree with your comments on Colnago, great bikes, but they do sell a lot because of history, name, heritage, etc. I'm not that crazy about their paint schemes.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Here are some Eurobike pics of those brands.

Eurobike 2012 -Colnago- | Bdc-forum.it | Bici da corsa
Eurobike 2012 -Wilier- | Bdc-forum.it | Bici da corsa
Eurobike 2012 -De Rosa- | Bdc-forum.it | Bici da corsa

Maybe look at Tommasini too.

Eurobike 2012 -Tommasini- | Bdc-forum.it | Bici da corsa


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Surprised you don't have a Pinarello Dogma on your list. Or, maybe KOBH.


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

Some gorgeous bike, for sure.

I love these two beauties:


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Resist! You must resist the urge to buy more off the shelf, cookie cutter frames!

If you're dropping that kind of coin, then really get the best of the best. Go fully custom. Get some Cyfac, Sarto, or Guru goodness! They don't get much better than that. Cyfac and Sarto make some of the bikes under the European pro's, they're rebadged to match the sponsor bike. The tube to tube construction yields such a better ride. 

It'll take a bit more work to find a dealer, and you'll need to spend some time figuring out exactly how you want the bike to ride, but it's so worth it.


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## tazdag (Apr 9, 2002)

I like Crumptons


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

JoelS said:


> Resist! You must resist the urge to buy more off the shelf, cookie cutter frames!


That's what I'm thinking. Might as well get a Tarmac and call it good.


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## Oasisbill (Jan 15, 2011)

From your list I would like a C59, as I like lugs. Seems to work for Tommy Voekler. Time RXRS, Look 695 I would add too. Cyfac for custom... Lucky bastard...


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

What would you guys say, makes a Sarto, for example, a better frame than a Wilier or C59?

What's going to end up happening is that I'm going to buy a Wilier, then a Sarto, then a Pinarello, maybe a classic 80s steel, and I'll end up loving life while remaining single! Haha


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

JoelS said:


> Resist! You must resist the urge to buy more off the shelf, cookie cutter frames!
> 
> If you're dropping that kind of coin, then really get the best of the best. Go fully custom. Get some Cyfac, Sarto, or Guru goodness! They don't get much better than that. Cyfac and Sarto make some of the bikes under the European pro's, they're rebadged to match the sponsor bike. The tube to tube construction yields such a better ride.
> 
> It'll take a bit more work to find a dealer, and you'll need to spend some time figuring out exactly how you want the bike to ride, but it's so worth it.


Or a Form; or a Calfee (carbon or bamboo, I cannot decide); or an IF; or a Kish; or a Strong.

Actually anything that is not a massed produced carbon frame would be far more interesting to me.


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## rayovolks (Dec 13, 2007)

FTR said:


> Actually anything that is not a massed produced carbon frame would be far more interesting to me.


"Top end" CF frames have lost their allure for me. Crazy prices, a few visual and graphic details to distinguish them from mid/lower-range frames, designs that change every model year, plus the availability of generic almost-look-a-like frames that can be painted or stickered up like the real thing (or outright "replicas") really erode the desirability factor.

Agree with the thought that if you're spending that much, just get a custom. It will be unique in every way.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Custom is the way I went for the money. I liked the Wilier but was in between the large and XL - I needed the seat post of one and the top tube of the other. I got a custom for essentially the same price and got fitted for something that produced max power for me.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

The SARTO can be made completely custom, not only geometry but also in tube selection. Also paint. Check out the Cima Coppi (www.sartocycles.com), that would be a top of the top Italian made frame. 





dakrisht said:


> What would you guys say, makes a Sarto, for example, a better frame than a Wilier or C59?
> 
> What's going to end up happening is that I'm going to buy a Wilier, then a Sarto, then a Pinarello, maybe a classic 80s steel, and I'll end up loving life while remaining single! Haha


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

dakrisht said:


> What would you guys say, makes a Sarto, for example, a better frame than a Wilier or C59?
> 
> What's going to end up happening is that I'm going to buy a Wilier, then a Sarto, then a Pinarello, maybe a classic 80s steel, and I'll end up loving life while remaining single! Haha


You mean aside from the fact that they can build the frame _exactly _for you? From geometry to handling to flex to vibration absorption and road feel? The tube-to-tube construction is stronger and lighter than monocoque - it's hand layed up and there is much more control of the frame build.

There are so many custom frame builders that use these techniques! Calfee, Kish, Strong, and so on. These guys build one off frames that are far better than anything that you'll get off the shelf.

However going custom requires that you truly understand what you want out of a frame. From handling to acceleration, etc. The frame builder/shop that you work with will help significantly in this regard. There will be an interview process along with either a fit session or biomechanic measurements. You'll be asked all sorts of questions over the conversation to figure out what is needed in geometry for fit and handling, along with tube selection/layup. I've been set up both ways and the frame design came out nearly exact, so I'm confident in both. 

The scary part is that you are buying a frame without a test ride. The first time I did that it left me really nervous. But once I got on the bike, all was well. The frame was exactly what I wanted.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

Yep, if you are ok with spending that amount of money, go custom. My custom ti was surprisingly affordable, I could have put Campy Chorus on it and still been under my tight budget.

(unless you're just looking to buy status, the by all means, buy a cookie cutter big name. But 'best of the best' and 'best of the mass production companies' are two very different things)


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## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

C59. Last of the great Italian-made bike frames *

* Pretty much anyway.

The others are not Italian other than by name.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

When it comes to high end carbon, it's French. 

Look, or Time. 

Colnago I can only buy in steel. Seriously.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

Is Storck made in Germany or Asia?


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Bremerradkurier said:


> Is Storck made in Germany or Asia?


I understand that these frames are handmade in Germany, though of course I could be mistaken.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

JoelS said:


> I understand that these frames are handmade in Germany, though of course I could be mistaken.


According to their website, they're made by Germans, who of course make good stuff like Sham-wows and apparently carbon frames.


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

If it has to be Italian and carbon fiber, I'd go for a custom Casati or Sarto personally...

If you're not racing or putting your ride buddies into the pain cave, then I vote just going for the one that looks the best to your eye.


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## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

Parlee Z5 SL or Colnago C59...they were my options. 

Wanted a Wilier about 2 years ago, but no longer.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Some other top Italian-made frames are Viner Maxima and Legend bikes (handmade by Marco Bertoletti in Bergamo), and Cippolini bikes (handmade by ZMM Compositi in Toscana).


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

To the OP.

Colnago


/end thread


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

*need some help*

Ive been riding bikes my entire life i raced bmx for many years now i started to get older an grew out of it but i went on a ride with a friend of mine that rides road bikes an i loved it so i decided to get into it but i need some help on choosing a bike my spending limit is about 1200$ so anyones input would greatly be appreciated. My local dealer has a trek 2.1 for 1100 the 2012 but in my experience ive never heard much about trek all my mountain bikes have been specialized so please i need some help thankyou


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> When it comes to high end carbon, it's French. Look, or Time.


I agree, but would add Cyfac to that list too.

It's not like the "non custom" manufacturers don't spend huge amounts of time and money designing their bikes. 
How is a custom maker gonna know what I mean by comfortable, or stiff, or what I think handling is? 
They're going to guess and if they get it wrong, you're stuck and they're headed out to dinner with your money.


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## cyanca (Aug 31, 2012)

for the 1000 to 1200$ range what would you suggest im new at this an need some help please i live in los angeles im not going to be using it competitively my local dealer has a trek 2.1 i was looking at but i really am not sure any advice on what i should look into?


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Another nice one is the Passoni xxTi. I'm pretty sure they're still made-to-order with custom sizing with an ISP option.


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

maximum7 said:


> I agree, but would add Cyfac to that list too.
> 
> It's not like the "non custom" manufacturers don't spend huge amounts of time and money designing their bikes.
> How is a custom maker gonna know what I mean by comfortable, or stiff, or what I think handling is?
> They're going to guess and if they get it wrong, you're stuck and they're headed out to dinner with your money.


Good point.


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

Where are the top-of-the line De Rosa and Wilier (Zero7) made?

Answer if you know only please. Lol.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Bremerradkurier said:


> According to their website, they're made by Germans, who of course make good stuff like Sham-wows and apparently carbon frames.


Depends on what you mean by "made by Germans." Storck carbon frames are manufactured in China. Perhaps the production line is manned by Germans, but I seriously doubt it. If you read German, next to the last papragraph:
Storck Bicycle - Bike frames in perfection


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## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

dakrisht said:


> Some gorgeous bike, for sure.
> 
> I love these two beauties:


I would like one of each. Thank you.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

wim said:


> Depends on what you mean by "made by Germans." Storck carbon frames are manufactured in China. Perhaps the production line is manned by Germans, but I seriously doubt it. If you read German, next to the last papragraph:
> Storck Bicycle - Bike frames in perfection


Yes, I'm a German reading superfreak-looking a little further, they're a little weaselly regarding where their manufacturing takes place-maybe they're like Italians and only do labels and paint in Old Europe:



The production process begins with a 3D CAD drawing of the frame or part. From there a mold is created. With meticulous attention to detail, the carbon fibers are soacked in resin and precisely placed into the mold based on a thorough build layout. To position the fibers in their exact location, they are heated and pressed into place using an air channeling tool. At this point the frame or part is smoothed by hand in a very labor intensive but crucial part of the production. Also at this point special aluminum reinforcments are added to those areas where bolts are attached. At each step in the process Storck takes special measures to ensure the highest quality possible. The craftmanship on Storck products is far superior to all other manufacturers. For nearly two decades Storck products have been designed, engineered and tested in Germany. Manufacturing takes place in both Asia and Germany.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Cyfac Absolu Frameset BB30- 54cm-Blue/Carbon/Pearl White | eBay

OP,
don't know what frame size would fit you, but here is a Cyfac Absolu in size 54cm. I'm 5'7 and I ride a Cyfac x-small frame (which is equivalent to size 50cm). 54cm should fit 5'10" - 6'0" nicely.

If I was in a market for a high-end bike, then the Absolu would be on my short list. Rides nice, perform nice, quality paint job, very exclusive brand (at least in the US). Seen plenty of Colnago, Wilier, De Rosa, Pinarello on the road, but only 1 Absolu. 

Damn I wish this was an xs frame, I'd be all over it.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Top of the line Italian?
How about a Bianchi Oltre? 
Competitive Cyclists has the framesets on sale and you could get a great deal on some Campy at Ribble.
Money doesn't seem to be an issue for you, but everyone likes getting a great deal.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

> The craftmanship on Storck products is far superior to all other manufacturers.


 Are you sure? Have you studied all other manufacturers' craftsmanship?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Bremerradkurier said:


> Yes, I'm a German reading superfreak-looking a little further, they're a little weaselly regarding where their manufacturing takes place-maybe they're like Italians and only do labels and paint in Old Europe:


Actually, I was refering to this not-so-weasely statement: _As a "virtual manufacturer," Storck has outsourced the production of hand-made frames to China. He [Markus Storck] explains: "The production of carbon frames requires thirty times the manpower in comparison to aluminum frames." _

(Die Produktion der handgefertigten Rahmen hat Storck als «virtuelles Unternehmen» nach China ausgelagert: «Die Herstellung von Carbonrahmen erfordert die dreißigfache Manpower im Vergleich zu Alurahmen», erklärt er.)


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

wim said:


> Actually, I was refering to this not-so-weasely statement: _As a "virtual manufacturer," Storck has outsourced the production of hand-made frames to China. He [Markus Storck] explains: "The production of carbon frames requires thirty times the manpower in comparison to aluminum frames." _
> 
> (Die Produktion der handgefertigten Rahmen hat Storck als «virtuelles Unternehmen» nach China ausgelagert: «Die Herstellung von Carbonrahmen erfordert die dreißigfache Manpower im Vergleich zu Alurahmen», erklärt er.)


So I guess they're now just like the Italians building their monocoques in China, and somebody out there makes an open mold Stolck ;-) on second or third shifts.


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## Bullvine (Sep 9, 2009)

Moots RSL, Super-Record, Enve bar, stem, Lite weight hoops = performance so clean you can eat off it.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

dakrisht said:


> Where are the top-of-the line De Rosa and Wilier (Zero7) made?


You can visit De Rosa and see them making a lot of their carbon frames in a glassed in workroom in their factory. I think it's closed in because of the solvent fumes, or EU health regulations.
Doriano De Rosa welds the titanium frames personally. Lots of pics and and interviews on BDC Italia. He also does some of the steel Corums.
I still want a "Downtown" frame but they are very rare. They also make a lot of mountain bike frames, even titanium ones.


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## RyleyinSTL (Aug 6, 2012)

Carbon Bikes, Titanium Bikes, Stainless Steel Bikes, Steel Bikes - Alchemy Bicycle Company


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

Love this Cinelli XCr especially in the Crystal Mirror finish










Cinelli XCR Criterium Racer | Rapha


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

^ I really dig the XCR, espeically with the Dura Ace crank. Together, the bike package has simple, elegant, industrious look with a touch of classic feel. 

But had they put Campy & Bora wheels with those huge stickers to try to make it look and feel like "Italian", it would ruin everything and the bike would be a screaming prima dona.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm seriously debating a Cyfac frameset right now for a winter build. Argh! Gotta sell my BMC to finance it....


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Best of the Best?
Custom in whatever material you desire


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> Best of the Best?
> Custom in whatever material you desire





InternetgremlinsrunningRBRforumswho must be communistensuringwealthisevenlydistributed said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to atpjunkie again



Preferably from someone who you can speak to and even better meet.


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

The XCr with Campy Record is a great move. Quite an expensive frame. 

I also love the Zero.7 in either black/red or black/yellow. That bike with Super Record and some Bora wheels looks like sex. 

Also love the De Rosa Nuovo Classico. 

I'm probably just going to buy the last two. Haha. 

Going to test drive a Dogma and a Madone in the coming weeks and see how I like them - although I won't be buying a Trek since I'm all about Italian cycles.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

dakrisht said:


> Where are the top-of-the line De Rosa and Wilier (Zero7) made?
> 
> Answer if you know only please. Lol.


Wiliers are engineered and produced in China. The design concept comes from Rossano Veneto:
"In effetti sono quindi gli ingegneri d'oriente che creano gli stampi e decretano la fattibilità del prodotto e propongono i tipi di materiale (tipo di carbonio), ma il "concepimento" avviene in Italia a suon di (costose) modifiche al prototipo."

http://www.bdc-forum.it/showthread.php?t=91296


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

There's really only so much a bicycle frame can do compared to the next similar priced one so if I was buying in this league I'd heavily factor in which makers have great service/warranty support knowing the product would be fine with just about any of them and support would be what separates them.

For that reason I'd pick Parlee. Cyfac also has a fantastic reputation for support and personalized attention.....but seeing as though they are in France and Parlee is just up the road from me I'd be more comforable with them. Plus their frames are friggin' great...but so are a lot of others and it's the company making them and there for after sale support that would make the difference.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yup*



kiwisimon said:


> Preferably from someone who you can speak to and even better meet.


go local if you can


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Enough of this B.S. Get a Cannondale EVO and call it done!


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## dakrisht (Aug 30, 2012)

^^^^ Haha, good one!

Anyone know if the Wilier Zero7 is made in Italy???

I know the C59 is...


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