# New Motobecane Super Strada with full Sram Apex



## SilentAssassin

What's the good word on this bike. Specs seems pretty good. Full sram apex group:










"Physically, Apex closely resembles its predecessors and with a suggested price of US$799 SRAM hopes it will encourage those who want the look-and-feel factor without the financial cost to make the leap. Parts key to shifting performance such as lever internals and chainrings are identical in both Rival and Apex, to provide like-for-like function. However, Rival's carbon brake levers make way for Apex's aluminium equivalents. There's also less machining in components such as the forged dual-pivot brake calipers, which sees Apex give up some 225 grams to Rival, but the dollar/gram equation will create a natural division within the SRAM range."

- bikeradar

All this on a sub $900 bike. The cost of the bike is close to the price of the drivetrain by itself.... :blush2: 

- https://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/first-look-sram-apex-group-review-25053/


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## Local Hero

*Today only: Sub $800*

I can't imagine 34X32.


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## Bertrand

If the fit worked out I'd buy this thing in a heartbeat for my daughter, who wants to get into road biking. The gearing would be perfect for a non-athletic beginner. There's no deal in Canada that could come close, even on the used market. Too bad it's so hard to get these things into Canada


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## SilentAssassin

You guys just need to find steeper hills apparently. AC used Sram Apex on one stage of the tour where there was 25% gradient. He's probably not that athletic which is why he needs it


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## johnny dollar

Waiting patiently for arrival.

Same geo as the Sprint/Vent Noir etc. bikes. 



SilentAssassin said:


> The cost of the bike is close to the price of the drivetrain by itself


That's MSRP, though. You can score a full Apex gruppo for way under $799.

And AC didn't use SRAM Apex, he used RED with a custom cassette (30t rear cog) which in turn inspired the APEX gruppo. And he didn't use it on the Tour, he used it during the '08 Giro on the KronPlatz mountain TT.


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## Local Hero

*Source?*



SilentAssassin said:


> You guys just need to find steeper hills apparently.


Probably.


> AC used Sram Apex


I've heard this before (on this board) but never seen a source. I've also heard (on this board) that Apex was _inspired_ by Contador, as he requested a special cassette. 

Source?


> one stage of the tour where there was 25% gradient.


Which stage had 25% gradient?


I don't mind being wrong here. I'd just like to see some sources. To be fair, I'm not much of a cycling fan. I spend my time riding.


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## johnny dollar

LocalHero,

The source info is actually provided in the link from bikeradar in SilentAssassins first post. It's all in the last section before the specs.


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## BluesDawg

Except that it wasn't the tour, it was the Giro, it wasn't 25%, it was 24% and it wasn't Apex, it was a custom cassette - you got it just right.


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## SilentAssassin

The Giro is a Grand tour.

that custom cassette is where the "wi-fli" concept derived from which lead to the perfected sram apex group apparently... 

More info:

http://en-gb.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=400384426897


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## SilentAssassin

Local Hero said:


> Probably.I've heard this before (on this board) but never seen a source. I've also heard (on this board) that Apex was _inspired_ by Contador, as he requested a special cassette.
> 
> Source?
> 
> Which stage had 25% gradient?
> 
> 
> I don't mind being wrong here. I'd just like to see some sources. To be fair, I'm not much of a cycling fan. I spend my time riding.


And on forums...? I'd be riding but still waiting for my chinese carbon wheelset.


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## johnny dollar

SilentAssassin said:


> AC used Sram Apex on one stage of the tour where there was 25% gradient.


When you casually say 'the tour' in this context, people think TdF. Yes, the Giro is a Grand Tour.
...

BoT, which color do you prefer on the Super Strada?


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## SilentAssassin

Yes, but unless you specify TDF, the tour could mean any of the three grand tours.

I prefer the green color.


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## johnny dollar

SilentAssassin said:


> Yes, but unless you specify TDF, the tour could mean any of the three grand tours.
> 
> I prefer the green color.


It _could_.

lol, I don't believe they come in green.


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## BluesDawg

Didn't mean to be pissy, just messin' with you a little. I knew what you meant. peace.


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## SilentAssassin

johnny dollar said:


> It _could_.
> 
> lol, I don't believe they come in green.


Doh, I'll pass then.


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## GipsyKing

That bike looks like one heck of a sweet ride. If I were in the market for a road, I'd grab it. Looking forward to pulling the trigger on a cross hopefully sometime soon.


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## SilentAssassin

SilentAssassin said:


> Doh, I'll pass then.


NOT. Ordered and waiting for the strada


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## heet

I ordered one...


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## SilentAssassin

Order two.


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## heet

SilentAssassin said:


> Order two.


I do need an extra bike. So my right testicle can ride along with me.


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## Doolab

Anyone else think that fork looks a little too thin?


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## cooleric1234

Somewhat off topic but are there any plans for a women's specific bike with Apex? Seems like an ideal groupset for when my wife gets her first road bike next year.


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## Cuban

Pulled the trigger on one (50 cm, orange) Saturday. It shipped this morning! I am pleasantly surprised by the quick turnaround (since they don't ship/answer emails/etc on the weekend). However, the shipping email from UPS said the shipping weight is 30 lbs! Of course the box/packing materials will add some weight, but I was/am *expecting* a ~20 lb bike.

I'm pretty excited about the Apex group, and SRAM in general, since this bike is my foray into longer rides/racing and SRAM groups are compatible. The ability to piecemeal upgrade is a huge advantage over Shimano to me.

Has anyone who has ordered received your bike yet? I was hoping for some reviews by now, but perhaps you're having too much fun riding!


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## parasyte

Cuban said:


> Has anyone who has ordered received your bike yet? I was hoping for some reviews by now, but perhaps you're having too much fun riding!


Just waiting for now; mine is supposed to arrive tomorrow. I might be able to throw up some pictures but I'm planning on having the LBS assemble it and I'm not sure if I'll be able to ride tomorrow. Also this is My First Road Bike so I'm not exactly qualified to do a thorough review.


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## Cuban

parasyte said:


> Just waiting for now; mine is supposed to arrive tomorrow. I might be able to throw up some pictures but I'm planning on having the LBS assemble it and I'm not sure if I'll be able to ride tomorrow. Also this is My First Road Bike so I'm not exactly qualified to do a thorough review.


Awesome! I got a call from BD today asking me to confirm my details since my billing address and my shipping address are different (lol, a difference of one block on the same street!) so it won't ship out until tomorrow, but I hope to have the bike by Friday still. Despite this being My First Road Bike as well, I'm fairly handy with a wrench (read: engineer). 

I'll take pictures too of the assembly and the bike so others can get a good idea of BD and their products. I have a Windsor Timeline as well that I'm happy to have and I can say, so far, I've had no problems with BD or their bikes. I just wish more information was available (weight, frame alloy, etc.), especially on generic parts I can't look up. That said, the fact they called me to make sure where they were shipping the bike and that I can get the answers I seek within a day or two is reassuring.

Oh, and I'm especially glad the frame is 7005 AL!


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## johnny dollar

...and received. 

Pretty easy to set up. My homemade work stand (that I built for my mtn bike) fits it well, so der. adjustments were a breeze.

I'll post pics later (don't worry, no unpacking pics).


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## SilentAssassin

double post


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## SilentAssassin

Cuban said:


> Awesome! I got a call from BD today asking me to confirm my details since my billing address and my shipping address are different (lol, a difference of one block on the same street!) so it won't ship out until tomorrow, but I hope to have the bike by Friday still. Despite this being My First Road Bike as well, I'm fairly handy with a wrench (read: engineer).
> 
> I'll take pictures too of the assembly and the bike so others can get a good idea of BD and their products. I have a Windsor Timeline as well that I'm happy to have and I can say, so far, I've had no problems with BD or their bikes. I just wish more information was available (weight, frame alloy, etc.), especially on generic parts I can't look up. That said, the fact they called me to make sure where they were shipping the bike and that I can get the answers I seek within a day or two is reassuring.
> 
> Oh, and I'm especially glad the frame is 7005 AL!


What is so great about 7005 AL anyways? I got the bike in orange. The paint and finish looks great on this bike. Haven't put it together yet. I'm also waiting for a fork that I bought for it to arrive. It arrived in perfect condition. BD packs their bikes with great care that's for sure.


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## SilentAssassin

johnny dollar said:


> Waiting patiently for arrival.
> 
> Same geo as the Sprint/Vent Noir etc. bikes.
> 
> 
> 
> That's MSRP, though. You can score a full Apex gruppo for way under $799.
> 
> And AC didn't use SRAM Apex, he used RED with a custom cassette (30t rear cog) which in turn inspired the APEX gruppo. And he didn't use it on the Tour, he used it during the '08 Giro on the KronPlatz mountain TT.


I wouldn't say way under $799. Cheapest I've seen is $599 and that's on fleabay so who knows what kind of warranty service you'd get there. Performance you can piece the groupset together for about $750...:blush2:...that's about the cost of the whole bike with wheels.


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## johnny dollar

SilentAssassin said:


> I wouldn't say way under


Well, that's just like, your opinion, man. :lol:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not contesting the _value_. But $150-$200 is a lot for me. 

Performance can sell that high for a while, at the same time giving one of their rotating discounts/coupons get the price back down to msrp.


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## SilentAssassin

johnny dollar said:


> Well, that's just like, your opinion, man. :lol:
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not contesting the _value_. But $150-$200 is a lot for me.
> 
> Performance can sell that high for a while, at the same time giving one of their rotating discounts/coupons get the price back down to msrp.


The wheels are worth 150-200, lol. I know, I'm just messing with you. But you go to an LBS or retail store to buy the drivetrain it'll probably be in the $700 range, that's all I was saying.


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## johnny dollar

True, true.
....

w0t aboot peectwas:


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## Bertrand

That's a nice looking bike. Now get out and ride that thang.


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## Cuban

SilentAssassin said:


> What is so great about 7005 AL anyways? I got the bike in orange. The paint and finish looks great on this bike. Haven't put it together yet. I'm also waiting for a fork that I bought for it to arrive. It arrived in perfect condition. BD packs their bikes with great care that's for sure.


I spent a couple weeks researching 6061 and 7005 aluminums before making my decision. You can find both alloys from the low-end to the high-end of bikes. Basically it breaks down like this:

6061:
Less stiff, less brittle.
Less durable as compared to 7005.

7005:
More stiff, more brittle.
~1.5 times more durable than 6061.

Basically, the reason I chose a 7005 frame is that because it is stiffer, more energy is transferred in propelling the bike forward, it will put up with more stress for a greater period of time, and it is stronger more dent resistant than 6061. That said, when it goes kaput, it will more likely shatter and bend. Like I said, both alloys are on higher end bikes, but for the properties I want in a frame, I wanted to get a 7005 frame. If you look at mountain bikes, however, more frames are 6061 because of the abuse they will be put through (ie they'll bend before they break) and they don't need the speed advantages of a stiffer frame.

ALSO, so excited that tomorrow morning I will be picking up my bike!


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## heet

dumb question - do I need to lube the chain on these bd bikes?


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## asad137

Cuban said:


> 6061:
> Less stiff, less brittle.
> Less durable as compared to 7005.
> 
> 7005:
> More stiff, more brittle.
> ~1.5 times more durable than 6061.


Not true -- well, not completely, anyway. 

All aluminum alloys, from commercially pure 1100 to 7075, have more-or-less the same stiffness (i.e. modulus of elasticity), to within a few percent. But comparing modulus numbers is silly anyway because the tube diameters/shapes have an ENORMOUS effect on the final stiffness of a tube -- much more important than the actual alloy being used.

And, also, 7005 has a slightly higher elongation number, which would lead me to believe that it's LESS brittle than 6061. You are right about the durability number, as the fatigue strength at 500 Mcycles is about 50% higher than 6061, and the non-fatigued yield strength is a hair higher as well.

The biggest difference, as I've read, is that 7005 doesn't require a post-weld heat treat -- this means that, even if the base material is a little more expensive, they can skip a step in production meaning it costs less to make.

references:
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=1b8c06d0ca7c456694c7777d9e10be5b
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=34c308934f7a4be589a80ecbee94406e&ckck=1

Asad


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## SilentAssassin

Not if it has a belt drive or if you live in SD.


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## heet

thx, lubed her up with some old leftover stuff from my mtb. finally got the derailleur's dialed in. that wasn't easy for a noob but there was plenty of online help. It rides nice and a big improvement from my hybrid...

I have a question, though-- is it normal for the apex group to not like the big chainring and big sprocket? in this combo the chain tries to jump off the tension pulley. not like I'm using this combo but it just bugs me.


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## johnny dollar

Do you mean using both the 50-32 at the same time? 

That's likely cross-chaining causing those pulley jumps. It's not specific to SRAM or Apex.

If your not using that combo, it really shouldn't bother you. Why wouldn't you just drop into the 34 chain ring and go to a smaller sprocket?


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## heet

johnny dollar said:


> Do you mean using both the 50-32 at the same time?
> 
> That's likely cross-chaining causing those pulley jumps. It's not specific to SRAM or Apex.
> 
> If your not using that combo, it really shouldn't bother you. Why wouldn't you just drop into the 34 chain ring and go to a smaller sprocket?


yes, I think you are right. I wouldn't use the combo but I wasn't sure if this problem was normal or if I had screwed up the tuning. I posted over at the noob forum and the consensus is "don't worry about it". Sounds good to me. Thanks for the help.


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## SilentAssassin

Just got to get use to finding the correct gears it looks like. Oh and for chain lube, 3 parts mineral spirits to 1 part mobile one synthetic oil is perfect if you want to make your own.


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## behemoth

I've been looking at this bike as well, I'm a little new to Road bike geometry, my last road bike was a Peugeot Course, Geo wasn't much of a focal point back then (at least for the rank and file riders like me). So my questions firstly are how you guys are finding the bike? Was it much trouble getting it built/tuned up? And lastly, I'm 5'9" and build proportionally, or at least my torso is, so what's the feedback on this bike's Geometry? Would it fit someone with normal build. Sorry that question seems a bit vague, but I guess I'd like to learn how best to judge a bike's geo in terms of my personal size/weight/etc. Thanks for all the write ups already made, I love the pictures!
-Chris


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## behemoth

Also if I fall in the 54-56cm frame size range what would you suggest?


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## johnny dollar

I had no issue setting up and tuning the bike, but then again I am much more interested in tinkering and mechanics than others might be. If you are at all mechanically inclined, it is not that difficult.

You can check out the geometry here if you want to compare to bikes you've ridden.

One missing component in the chart is headtube length, but my 58cm Strada has a 13cm headtube.

The bike's geometry is more race oriented than say the Century, but fitting what you describe as a 'normal build' is probably the wrong question. 
What I mean is that a) describing your body dimensions over the internet for a size/fit recommendation is marginal at best (so many variables) and b) without taking into account fitness and flexibility it's even more difficult to make a judgment on whether or not you will be comfortable on a bike you've never ridden.

If you can, compare this bikes geo with other bikes you've ridden (your bikes, friends bikes, demos, etc.) and be realistic about your current fitness and flexibility and future goals. 

If your aim is to just get out and ride for fun and fitness at a casual pace and you haven't been that active for a while, a race oriented geometry might not be the most suitable choice. However, if you are young and/or fit and flexible, then this kind of geometry might be right up your alley.

There are fit calculators available to aid your search, but talking to a real person with fit experience is the fastest route to an enjoyable experience.
...

The crux of it is, if you are new to road bikes and bikes in general, you're much better off getting fit advice from someone in the flesh rather than over the flash.


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## SilentAssassin

heet said:


> yes, I think you are right. I wouldn't use the combo but I wasn't sure if this problem was normal or if I had screwed up the tuning. I posted over at the noob forum and the consensus is "don't worry about it". Sounds good to me. Thanks for the help.


Got any pics of the bike?


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## SilentAssassin

@ behemoth: Man I'd hate for you to abuse your LBS but try to get fitted at an LBS first. Then you can compare the geometry of the bike they fit you to. Or heck you might end up liking the bike at the LBS and you can buy that one from them. Sometimes an LBS is better for certain people who don't know how to size themselves to a bike. But once you get fitted to a bike, that should be enough reference to match up to a strada. Then maybe buy a couple of tubes at the LBS so you don't feel so bad afterward, lol.


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## behemoth

Thanks both, I realized my build was a useless piece of data too late. Thanks for the clue in. I want to race this bike, I'm relatively young, and pretty flexible. I think an LBS is the way to go, I just like the specs on this bike and it is so much cheaper for the components. @ Silent, yeah, though I know quite a few peeps that have done that, I do feel a bit off using them (LBS) that way. It's like running shoes, tested at the store, bought online. I'll see what they recommend, then do I just match the geo specs to the the bike I'm interested in, is it that simple?
-B


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## heet

I stopped at 2 LBS' and was ignored at one and the other had me try a 54 that didn't fit but he thought I should order the 52, which they didn't have in stock, without riding it. Bzzzt.


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## rx-79g

SilentAssassin said:


> What is so great about 7005 AL anyways? I got the bike in orange. The paint and finish looks great on this bike. Haven't put it together yet. I'm also waiting for a fork that I bought for it to arrive. It arrived in perfect condition. BD packs their bikes with great care that's for sure.


I just read where you referred to people enthused about Chinese carbon bikes as shills. Yet, everytime I turn around you're shilling for the Chinese crap from Bikesdirect. Why is that?

Is it the cheap, fragile cable housing they use, or just the fake "Motebecane" branding you love so much? The toothpaste welds? The unpleasant ride? The can do attitude that comes from inserting the pedals and seat yourself (what grease)?

As far as I can tell, you spent nearly a grand on a $500 groupo, some heavy, loose ball bearing wheels and a disposable frame in a 20 lbs package. Congrats.


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## johnny dollar

rx-79g said:


> Taiwanese crap from Bikesdirect.


FTFY

Btw, I know this wasn't directed at me, but I trust Kinesis with frame building since they build for so many "reputable" brands including a few of my non-BD bikes. If you know what your looking for, BD bikes _can_ be a great value whether you're a shill or a hater.


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## unboringuy

rx-79g said:


> I just read where you referred to people enthused about Chinese carbon bikes as shills. Yet, everytime I turn around you're shilling for the Chinese crap from Bikesdirect. Why is that?
> 
> Is it the cheap, fragile cable housing they use, or just the fake "Motebecane" branding you love so much? The toothpaste welds? The unpleasant ride? The can do attitude that comes from inserting the pedals and seat yourself (what grease)?
> 
> As far as I can tell, you spent nearly a grand on a $500 groupo, some heavy, loose ball bearing wheels and a disposable frame in a 20 lbs package. Congrats.


I'm certainly no shill for BD. But I am very happy with my Le Champion Ti. Although I had a couple of very minor problems involving the cabling, BD resolved things promptly, professionally, and to my satisfaction.


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## SilentAssassin

No shill here either, just like price and quality of the strada.


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## SilentAssassin

rx-79g said:


> I just read where you referred to people enthused about Chinese carbon bikes as shills. Yet, everytime I turn around you're shilling for the Chinese crap from Bikesdirect. Why is that?
> 
> Is it the cheap, fragile cable housing they use, or just the fake "Motebecane" branding you love so much? The toothpaste welds? The unpleasant ride? The can do attitude that comes from inserting the pedals and seat yourself (what grease)?
> 
> As far as I can tell, you spent nearly a grand on a $500 groupo, some heavy, loose ball bearing wheels and a disposable frame in a 20 lbs package. Congrats.


$500 groupo? Wrong. An 8 piece sram apex groupo at a retail store or LBS will cost you more like $700-750 in reality. Link where you can purchase an 8 piece sram apex for $500 new? You just lost all credibility with that statement.

AND FYI: A lot of people are switching from the cumbersome and awkward shimano 105 triple groupo to sram apex and are loving it! Might want to also look into the fact that Contador used sram apex on a certain stage of the tour to keep his cadence up on a 26% gradient mountain climb! Trust me, this groupo is a steal at $800, yet it is far cheaper than shimano 105 and even lighter than 105! It's the best deal in town really. Sram could easily sell Apex for more if you think about it considering it's revolutionary design that is basically eclipsing the need for a triple groupo.

A lot of people like the vuelta xrp pros over the Mavic Aksiums. Both are good wheels. The apex group and vueltas are already worth more than $899 price tag retail wise. Even if you bargain hunted, that $899 is hard to match, plus you get warranty on the bike and parts too!

Your complaining about the frame, but it rides good. Ride isn't harsh at all to me, and you do know that tire choice and size far outweigh the suspension properties of a bike than the frame right? If you want a plush ride you go with bigger tire size, like 700x35 with a lower psi.

Toothpaste welds? Welds look good and uniformed to me. I guess some people need them sanded down and smoothed out for some reason? I don't get it. A bike frame isn't art. It's something that you are going to ride and it's something your going to get a bunch of nicks and scratches on. Regardless the Super Strada frame looks stunning in person. Did you see the pics of mr. orange? Very nice. Paint is nice...and the hollow lettering on the orange is very attractive.

As far as the chinese resellers, at least BD speaks my language, and are on the same continent as me. At least their customer service is prompt, and at least I don't have to spend $200 to ship a frame back to China on my own dime if something is wrong. I also don't have to worry about warranty problems because the bike is covered.

And come on, we all know the super strada is made in Taiwan. It's a quality bike bar none, and at $900, it's basically a steal, and yes, you'll feel good when your passing weaker guys on Cervelos and people on their misaligned defective carbon chinese frames I've read about that won't ride straight  

You want to take a $600 gamble on a Chinese carbon frame with no quality control, no warranty whatsoever, and possibly have to ship it back for $200 if something goes wrong, go ahead. 

If you want to spend just $300 more, and get a quality bike fully built up with very nice specs and 90% ready to ride, with a sweet $800 sram apex groupo...you'll go with the Super Strada from Bikesdirect. As a Super Strada owner, I can 100% guarantee that you'll be satisfied with the bike. It rides well, and a few other forum members have certainly stated their satisfaction with this bike. 

My advice: Get the Super Strada before it sells out, that way you can ride now.


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## heet

I got the super strada for the cheap full apex group, myself. If I want to upgrade frame in the future, I can just swap the parts. Or maybe I'll get a higher end SRAM group, who knows? In any case, I really like the action of the shifters and gearing. I suppose SRAMs goal of capturing entry level consumers worked on me.

I will say I had to swap out the new saddle and just bought a new compact handlebar to get the fit the way I wanted it.


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## heet

duplicate


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## SilentAssassin

behemoth said:


> Thanks both, I realized my build was a useless piece of data too late. Thanks for the clue in. I want to race this bike, I'm relatively young, and pretty flexible. I think an LBS is the way to go, I just like the specs on this bike and it is so much cheaper for the components. @ Silent, yeah, though I know quite a few peeps that have done that, I do feel a bit off using them (LBS) that way. It's like running shoes, tested at the store, bought online. I'll see what they recommend, then do I just match the geo specs to the the bike I'm interested in, is it that simple?
> -B


If this is your first bike you are getting fit to then you'll get a generic fit when you go to an LBS. That's a good place to start. Your height and inseam will most likely be the ballpark figure of what frame size you'll be on, then the LBS will change the stem length to your most comfortable position. As you ride and develop your own style and find your comfort zone, that's when you might say...well I think I want a smaller frame with more saddle height so I can get more aero in the drops...or I think I want a bigger frame with less saddle height so I can get a more upright relaxed position...or I think I want a shorter stem so I'm not so stretched out...and vice versa.

This is why it can be a mistake to spend say...too much on your first bike. You might want to even try a used bike on craigslist, but honestly, most of the bikes I see on CL are way overpriced for it being used.

Lots of factors, because every body is different. Good hunting regardless. 

Might want to check this bike fit calculator as well. I've used it and it's pretty accurate:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR&SITE.CODE=&gender=M&units=cm


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## SilentAssassin

You got lucky, most of the popular sizes are sold out. Both 58cm and 56cm in orange and silver are sold out. The Grand Sprint would be a good alternative however.


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## sally cinnamon

I'm thinking of getting this bike for my GF (she has always wanted an orange bike). How heavy is the bike? Also, I was hoping I might get some advice on size. She is 5'6"...I was thinking maybe a 52"?


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## cooleric1234

sally cinnamon said:


> I'm thinking of getting this bike for my GF (she has always wanted an orange bike). How heavy is the bike? Also, I was hoping I might get some advice on size. She is 5'6"...I was thinking maybe a 52"?


That leads back to my question. A women's specific bike with Apex would be ideal, imo.


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## rx-79g

ShillAssassin said:


> $500 groupo? Wrong. An 8 piece sram apex groupo at a retail store or LBS will cost you more like $700-750 in reality. Link where you can purchase an 8 piece sram apex for $500 new? You just lost all credibility with that statement.
> 
> AND FYI: A lot of people are switching from the cumbersome and awkward shimano 105 triple groupo to sram apex and are loving it! Might want to also look into the fact that Contador used sram apex on a certain stage of the tour to keep his cadence up on a 26% gradient mountain climb! Trust me, this groupo is a steal at $800, yet it is far cheaper than shimano 105 and even lighter than 105! It's the best deal in town really. Sram could easily sell Apex for more if you think about it considering it's revolutionary design that is basically eclipsing the need for a triple groupo.
> 
> A lot of people like the vuelta xrp pros over the Mavic Aksiums. Both are good wheels. The apex group and vueltas are already worth more than $899 price tag retail wise. Even if you bargain hunted, that $899 is hard to match, plus you get warranty on the bike and parts too!
> 
> Your complaining about the frame, but it rides good. Ride isn't harsh at all to me, and you do know that tire choice and size far outweigh the suspension properties of a bike than the frame right? If you want a plush ride you go with bigger tire size, like 700x35 with a lower psi.
> 
> Toothpaste welds? Welds look good and uniformed to me. I guess some people need them sanded down and smoothed out for some reason? I don't get it. A bike frame isn't art. It's something that you are going to ride and it's something your going to get a bunch of nicks and scratches on. Regardless the Super Strada frame looks stunning in person. Did you see the pics of mr. orange? Very nice. Paint is nice...and the hollow lettering on the orange is very attractive.
> 
> As far as the chinese resellers, at least BD speaks my language, and are on the same continent as me. At least their customer service is prompt, and at least I don't have to spend $200 to ship a frame back to China on my own dime if something is wrong. I also don't have to worry about warranty problems because the bike is covered.
> 
> And come on, we all know the super strada is made in Taiwan. It's a quality bike bar none, and at $900, it's basically a steal, and yes, you'll feel good when your passing weaker guys on Cervelos and people on their misaligned defective carbon chinese frames I've read about that won't ride straight
> 
> You want to take a $600 gamble on a Chinese carbon frame with no quality control, no warranty whatsoever, and possibly have to ship it back for $200 if something goes wrong, go ahead.
> 
> If you want to spend just $300 more, and get a quality bike fully built up with very nice specs and 90% ready to ride, with a sweet $800 sram apex groupo...you'll go with the Super Strada from Bikesdirect. As a Super Strada owner, I can 100% guarantee that you'll be satisfied with the bike. It rides well, and a few other forum members have certainly stated their satisfaction with this bike.
> 
> My advice: Get the Super Strada before it sells out, that way you can ride now.


Dear Shill,

The above is such an enormous load of dung, so I'm not sure if you are just amazingly poorly informed, or simply a liar.

The Mavic Aksium is an okay wheel. It is reasonable quality, reasonably durable and has terrific hubs with cartridge bearings. It is not very light for a wheel dressed up like a factory lightweight. The Vuelta thingy is really just a super cheap wheel disguised as a nice wheel. In this day and age, there is little excuse for loose ball bearings in any bicycle over $500. On top of that, these are likely heavier than even the not-light Aksiums.

Apex is a group BELOW Rival, and would normally sell in the $500 range. Since it is just coming out now the price is inflated, and it's a bad time to buy. But that's RETAIL, and components are always cheaper on a complete bike than as a group.

Your Kinesis frame is ugly. The welds are immense and unfinished. They are very evenly immense, because Kinesis, a company that manufactures in both Taiwan AND China does a nice job.

Let's play a game:

I buy a parts group on Ebay for $500. (Why would I buy it from an LBS? You don't buy from them, either.) Apex, 105, whatever. I purchase an aluminum frame AND carbon fork with headset from Performance for $200, along with a set of wheels for another $120. I spend another $100 on my prefered saddle and post, bars, stem and tape. I have spent a total of $920 for all the parts to build a bike. It's not going to be assembled by a bike shop, but neither is a "Motobecane".

What did I end up with:
1. A nice(r) aluminum frame and carbon fork, with a good warranty from a long standing company.
2. A pair of okay wheels, but with cartridge bearing hubs, so they'll last and require very little service. Better than the Vuelta thingy, anyway.
3. Hight quality, reliable cabling from Shimano or SRAM, included with the group.
4. The seat I wanted. 
5. The correct stem length. 
6. The correct bar width.

What I didn't get:
1. Professional assembly. But you don't with Bikes Direct, either.
2. A name brand frame. But you don't with Bikes Direct, either (Motobecane is a French company that let its US copyright lapse).
3. Exploding shifter housing.
4. The foolish belief that I'm smarter than those people who shop at bike stores.
5. BikesDirect pricing. Oh, wait a minute, I bought everything retail, parted the bike together, and still paid the about the same! So scratch that one.

BikesDirect is a business. They have realized that a certain segment of the bicycle buying public is so uneducated that they think the model of rear derailleur is the most important thing about a bike. So they take decent parts, hang them on cheap frames with even worse wheels and announce that they are the best deal going.

Drink all the cool aid you want. The frame is the heart of the bike, and the wheels are the soul. Bicycle reliability is paramount. You won't get heart, soul or reliability for a novice by buying a semi-assembly bike out of box with chincy parts.

BTW, I normally wouldn't care, but every post I see from you on this board is offensive. David Lynskey, the f'ing grandfather of titanium bicycles posts, and you're there crapping on him. Someone wants to buy a cheap ass CF frame from China, and you of all people call them shills. Several people post legitimate and documented problems with Pride, and there you are claiming they are the scammers. You run your mouth off about Lemond's superb '89 time trial bike like you know what you're talking about - which you obviously do not. It's appalling reading the thoughtless posts that you make when you're not busy with your viral BikesDirect marketing campaign.

I don't know what's worse: Either BikesDirect paying you, which is a waste of their money. Or you're shilling for free. Never prostitute yourself for nothing.

Shill.


----------



## johnny dollar

You two need to take this to PMs and quit dick swinging in this thread. 

rx-79g, calling out SilentAssassin on this thread for things he has said on other threads is the total wrong way of approaching this (regardless if your points are well taken). There is that whole 'ignore user' feature.

Now you are just playing a game of "Nuh, uh! Mines better", and it's safe to say no one cares.

And if all you have to contribute to this thread is your _opinion_ that Moto, BD, Kinesis only makes garbage shite (though you admit Kinesis does a nice job-- albeit ugly with toothpaste welds, IYO) with an alluring gruppo, then why post?

....

Go ride your bikes.


----------



## SilentAssassin

heet said:


> I got the super strada for the cheap full apex group, myself. If I want to upgrade frame in the future, I can just swap the parts. Or maybe I'll get a higher end SRAM group, who knows? In any case, I really like the action of the shifters and gearing. I suppose SRAMs goal of capturing entry level consumers worked on me.
> 
> I will say I had to swap out the new saddle and just bought a new compact handlebar to get the fit the way I wanted it.


There really isn't much difference between apex and rival, besides 200 grams or so, and of course, the gearing. Apex is basically for climbers.


----------



## SilentAssassin

rx-79g said:


> Dear Shill,
> 
> The above is such an enormous load of dung, so I'm not sure if you are just amazingly poorly informed, or simply a liar.
> 
> The Mavic Aksium is an okay wheel. It is reasonable quality, reasonably durable and has terrific hubs with cartridge bearings. It is not very light for a wheel dressed up like a factory lightweight. The Vuelta thingy is really just a super cheap wheel disguised as a nice wheel. In this day and age, there is little excuse for loose ball bearings in any bicycle over $500. On top of that, these are likely heavier than even the not-light Aksiums.
> 
> Apex is a group BELOW Rival, and would normally sell in the $500 range. Since it is just coming out now the price is inflated, and it's a bad time to buy. But that's RETAIL, and components are always cheaper on a complete bike than as a group.
> 
> Your Kinesis frame is ugly. The welds are immense and unfinished. They are very evenly immense, because Kinesis, a company that manufactures in both Taiwan AND China does a nice job.
> 
> Let's play a game:
> 
> I buy a parts group on Ebay for $500. (Why would I buy it from an LBS? You don't buy from them, either.) Apex, 105, whatever. I purchase an aluminum frame AND carbon fork with headset from Performance for $200, along with a set of wheels for another $120. I spend another $100 on my prefered saddle and post, bars, stem and tape. I have spent a total of $920 for all the parts to build a bike. It's not going to be assembled by a bike shop, but neither is a "Motobecane".
> 
> What did I end up with:
> 1. A nice(r) aluminum frame and carbon fork, with a good warranty from a long standing company.
> 2. A pair of okay wheels, but with cartridge bearing hubs, so they'll last and require very little service. Better than the Vuelta thingy, anyway.
> 3. Hight quality, reliable cabling from Shimano or SRAM, included with the group.
> 4. The seat I wanted.
> 5. The correct stem length.
> 6. The correct bar width.
> 
> What I didn't get:
> 1. Professional assembly. But you don't with Bikes Direct, either.
> 2. A name brand frame. But you don't with Bikes Direct, either (Motobecane is a French company that let its US copyright lapse).
> 3. Exploding shifter housing.
> 4. The foolish belief that I'm smarter than those people who shop at bike stores.
> 5. BikesDirect pricing. Oh, wait a minute, I bought everything retail, parted the bike together, and still paid the about the same! So scratch that one.
> 
> BikesDirect is a business. They have realized that a certain segment of the bicycle buying public is so uneducated that they think the model of rear derailleur is the most important thing about a bike. So they take decent parts, hang them on cheap frames with even worse wheels and announce that they are the best deal going.
> 
> Drink all the cool aid you want. The frame is the heart of the bike, and the wheels are the soul. Bicycle reliability is paramount. You won't get heart, soul or reliability for a novice by buying a semi-assembly bike out of box with chincy parts.
> 
> BTW, I normally wouldn't care, but every post I see from you on this board is offensive. David Lynskey, the f'ing grandfather of titanium bicycles posts, and you're there crapping on him. Someone wants to buy a cheap ass CF frame from China, and you of all people call them shills. Several people post legitimate and documented problems with Pride, and there you are claiming they are the scammers. You run your mouth off about Lemond's superb '89 time trial bike like you know what you're talking about - which you obviously do not. It's appalling reading the thoughtless posts that you make when you're not busy with your viral BikesDirect marketing campaign.
> 
> I don't know what's worse: Either BikesDirect paying you, which is a waste of their money. Or you're shilling for free. Never prostitute yourself for nothing.
> 
> Shill.


1) You say cheap frame but you acknowledge that it's made by kinesis, who basically make frames in Taiwan for Specialized, Santa Cruz, and other "high end" brands. Oh and the SuperStrada is made in Taiwan.

2) Wrong again, you can't buy an sram apex group brand new with a warranty for $500 on ebay. More like $650 for the whole 8 pc group you get with the strada.
- Reality is you'll be spending $1400 on a whole bike to match the Super Strada if were talking new parts with a warranty(which BD gives you).
- Sram Apex is priced hundreds less than their competitors as it already is...how is this overpriced? If anything, they have no competition and the price will remain the same for a long time.
- And that $650 ebay price, you better hope they are an authorized reseller or forget about getting the warranty.

3) Shill this, shill that. Just because I like my bike purchase and recommend it doesn't make me a shill.

4) Welds looks is a matter of taste, not function. Boohoo, the welds aren't smoothed out, sanded down / or bondo wasn't used to give it a smooth appearance. Sounds like a bike snob thing. It's just such a small aesthetic detail that really doesn't matter. So long as it's welded so that the frame has proper structural integrity...seriously...who cares, cycling isn't a fashion show, it's suppose to be recreation/sport.

And the bike overall is very attractive, especially in orange. Everyone has their own taste however I guess.

5) And you dock the frame yet you admit kinesis makes frames for other high end manufacturers like Specialized, Santa Cruz, fuji, etc. 

6) Nothing against Lynskey at all. Yes, I will question if his new Ti frame is worth $2500. What sane person wouldn't? 

7) I will always question the generic carbon chinese frames, especially since various people on these forums have complained about receiving defective, wrong size, and even misaligned frames...and end up spending $300-600 on an unusable product.

8) You sure you are not trying to use the "Reverse Psychology" trick, and in reality you are the shill?

Bonjour.


----------



## Axe

rx-79g said:


> I just read where you referred to people enthused about Chinese carbon bikes as shills. Yet, everytime I turn around you're shilling for the Chinese crap from Bikesdirect. Why is that?
> 
> Is it the cheap, fragile cable housing they use, or just the fake "Motebecane" branding you love so much? The toothpaste welds? The unpleasant ride? The can do attitude that comes from inserting the pedals and seat yourself (what grease)?
> 
> As far as I can tell, you spent nearly a grand on a $500 groupo, some heavy, loose ball bearing wheels and a disposable frame in a 20 lbs package. Congrats.


You are either borderline retarded or have anger issues.

You also do not know what you are talking about.


----------



## johnny dollar

A little from column A, a little from column B.


----------



## rx-79g

A little B, because SilentAssassin posts the most innane stuff on this board when he isn't playing shepard to the common man with the Bikesdirect shilling. I keep using that word because the guy actually had the gaul to use it on some of his fellow forumites. 

The rest of it is opinion, and a professional one. Bikesdirect doesn't sell out and out bad products, but the adage "you get what you pay for" applies here, just like everywhere else. There are some serious limitations in these bikes, and the attitude that they don't exist is frustrating.

But, if I "don't know what I'm talking about", and you want to believe a loose ball bearing wheel is the same caliber as a Mavic wheel, there is no helping some people. As always, I encourage you to buy what you like. But at least become a smart and critical shopper. Drink the coffee, not the Koolaid. No brand is worth the hype that surrounds it. BD hypes value - I say they hype the appearance of value, which isn't always the same thing. Some of their bikes are really cheap, especially with DA. This particular one is barely par, especially if you want to ride a lot. It is meerly a cheap place to hang an Apex group.

You guys look into those fake Bottecchia's? They've got some values, too.


----------



## Local Hero

*Motobecane w/ DA for $795*



rx-79g said:


> BD hypes value - I say they hype the appearance of value, which isn't always the same thing. Some of their bikes are really cheap, especially with DA.


Can we digress a bit? I'm interested in your opinion on track bikes. Let's compare a few aluminum models: The Motobecane Team Track, Fuji Track 2.0, and Felt TK2 and TK3. 

BD sells their Team Track for $795. It's an aluminum frame with a Dura Ace crank, chainring, BB, and cog. The seatpost, stem, and bars are midgrade deda. Wheels are midgrade Vueltas. 

The frame looks (is?) identical to the Fuji Track 2.0 which has an MSRP of $1149. The Fuji comes with house wheels and an inferior crank/chainring. 

Now to the Felt bikes. Felt's TK3 ($799) also has a house drive train and wheelset, similar to the Fuji. 

Felt's TK2 ($1499) is decked out with a nice SRAM Omnium crankset and other mid to high grade bits. 

The Moto and Fuji have 6061 aluminum. The Felts are 7005. 


Which of these track bikes would you choose? Why?
(If there's another manufacturer's bike in this same category, feel free to mention it)


----------



## SilentAssassin

No point in arguing with rx. He still thinks you can get a 8 piece sram apex group brand new for $500. Fact is the cheapest you could pick it up for is around $640 on ebay. Now buy a pair of wheels and your already at the price of the super strada! How is the strada not a good deal? He is delusional. And yes, the strada has sold out in a few sizes already. It's a good bike, I know, because I ride it. The only issue I have with BD is they haven't made my custom moto jerseys yet, sigh.


----------



## ohvrolla

rx-79g said:


> A little B, because SilentAssassin posts the most innane stuff on this board when he isn't playing shepard to the common man with the Bikesdirect shilling. I keep using that word because the guy actually had the gaul to use it on some of his fellow forumites.
> 
> The rest of it is opinion, and a professional one. Bikesdirect doesn't sell out and out bad products, but the adage "you get what you pay for" applies here, just like everywhere else. There are some serious limitations in these bikes, and the attitude that they don't exist is frustrating.
> 
> *But, if I "don't know what I'm talking about", and you want to believe a loose ball bearing wheel is the same caliber as a Mavic wheel, there is no helping some people.* As always, I encourage you to buy what you like. But at least become a smart and critical shopper. Drink the coffee, not the Koolaid. No brand is worth the hype that surrounds it. BD hypes value - I say they hype the appearance of value, which isn't always the same thing. Some of their bikes are really cheap, especially with DA. This particular one is barely par, especially if you want to ride a lot. It is meerly a cheap place to hang an Apex group.
> 
> You guys look into those fake Bottecchia's? They've got some values, too.


What about Shimano hubs? You'd take Aksiums over DuraAce hubs? I've got a wheelset with Malliard loose ball hubs that are 21-22 years old. Is this what they mean when people call a wheel "bombproof." Have another bike with cartidge bearing hubs and if they make it two decades before the bearings go I'd be highly surprised.

As far as the Vueltas go I'm kinda meh about this anyway. Because really it wouldn't matter if it was Aksiums or Vueltas for those with upgraditis. They'll be the first thing changed.


----------



## PlatyPius

Local Hero said:


> Can we digress a bit? I'm interested in your opinion on track bikes. Let's compare a few aluminum models: The Motobecane Team Track, Fuji Track 2.0, and Felt TK2 and TK3.
> *
> BD sells their Team Track for $795. It's an aluminum frame with a Dura Ace crank, chainring, BB, and cog. The seatpost, stem, and bars are midgrade deda. Wheels are midgrade Vueltas.
> 
> The frame looks (is?) identical to the * *Fuji Track 2.0 which has an MSRP of $1149. The Fuji comes with house wheels and an inferior crank/chainring. *
> 
> Now to the Felt bikes. Felt's TK3 ($799) also has a house drive train and wheelset, similar to the Fuji.
> 
> Felt's TK2 ($1499) is decked out with a nice SRAM Omnium crankset and other mid to high grade bits.
> 
> The Moto and Fuji have 6061 aluminum. The Felts are 7005.
> 
> 
> Which of these track bikes would you choose? Why?
> (If there's another manufacturer's bike in this same category, feel free to mention it)


BD Track bike = Fuji.

Many of BD's bikes are Fujis with different colours and/or labels. This is because Fuji is owned by Ideal, which is a bicycle manufacturer. BD buys Fuji's leftover stock (and, I'm sure, has Ideal build some bikes to their spec) and sells it cheap.

Bike shops used to get those deals back before BD came into being. Now, thanks to BD and other online mega-sellers, the massively discounted closeout bikes are gone before we even get a chance to buy them. This isn't all due to BD of course; with the economy being in the crapper, bike companies are running inventory tighter (as witnessed by the great bike shortage of 2010) too, so there aren't as many closeouts in general.

As for the Kinesis frames... Raleigh also uses Kinesis for their frames, and has for a while. The frame on the Motobecane in question is the most basic that you can possibly buy from Kinesis (without going to the Windsor Wellington with it's unfinished welds). That frame sells - wholesale - for about $50. When was the last time you even *saw* a round-tubed aluminum road frame?

My wholesale cost on an Apex group is around $470. (Ergo, $500 groups for sale are rather unlikely) BD, of course, gets it cheaper.

Those wheels wholesale for around $70. Again, BD gets them cheaper. So, we have $50 for the frame + $40 for the fork + $470 for the group and $70 for the wheels; at wholesale. That brings us to $630. Saddle is about $3. Handlebar, stem, and seatpost is around $60. Add $30 for tires and tubes. That brings us up to $723 for the bike, wholesale. BD is paying less than wholesale. There's some perspective for you. I could build an identical bike for $750 and sell it for $900. But would I want to? I'm not happy with a "barely good enough" cheap aluminum frame.


----------



## SilentAssassin

PlatyPius said:


> BD Track bike = Fuji.
> 
> Many of BD's bikes are Fujis with different colours and/or labels. This is because Fuji is owned by Ideal, which is a bicycle manufacturer. BD buys Fuji's leftover stock (and, I'm sure, has Ideal build some bikes to their spec) and sells it cheap.
> 
> Bike shops used to get those deals back before BD came into being. Now, thanks to BD and other online mega-sellers, the massively discounted closeout bikes are gone before we even get a chance to buy them. This isn't all due to BD of course; with the economy being in the crapper, bike companies are running inventory tighter (as witnessed by the great bike shortage of 2010) too, so there aren't as many closeouts in general.
> 
> As for the Kinesis frames... Raleigh also uses Kinesis for their frames, and has for a while. The frame on the Motobecane in question is the most basic that you can possibly buy from Kinesis (without going to the Windsor Wellington with it's unfinished welds). That frame sells - wholesale - for about $50. When was the last time you even *saw* a round-tubed aluminum road frame?
> 
> My wholesale cost on an Apex group is around $470. (Ergo, $500 groups for sale are rather unlikely) BD, of course, gets it cheaper.
> 
> Those wheels wholesale for around $70. Again, BD gets them cheaper. So, we have $50 for the frame + $40 for the fork + $470 for the group and $70 for the wheels; at wholesale. That brings us to $630. Saddle is about $3. Handlebar, stem, and seatpost is around $60. Add $30 for tires and tubes. That brings us up to $723 for the bike, wholesale. BD is paying less than wholesale. There's some perspective for you. I could build an identical bike for $750 and sell it for $900. But would I want to? I'm not happy with a "barely good enough" cheap aluminum frame.


Show us where we could get the strada frame new for $50 with a link? Heck I'm sure specialized buys their tarmac frames for $100 a piece it doesn't mean you'll ever see that price. Show us where we could buy the apex group for $470 with a link. Fact is you can't. No one sells it for that price. Lowest your going to get the apex group is for about $650 in reality and that's cheap. More like $750 if were talking LBS or a retail store like Performance, and that's about the price of the bike. If everyone could get dealer prices for everything then dealers, retail stores, etc. wouldn't exist. 

Specialized, Orbea, etc. gets their high end frames for dirt cheap probably a $100 a piece or less because they buy so much in volume. Still think that generic carbon chinese frame is a good price? You are still paying hundreds more than what the resellers got it for. What dealers get their stuff for doesn't translate into what consumers can get it for.

Same thing applies to cars, groceries, and pretty much everything else you buy.

It's a bike frame. If you'd rather spend $1000 more on a hyped up carbon frame than the super strada frame, thinking you'll be faster, that's your choice. I'm sure the big companies and the chinese carbon resellers will thank you.


----------



## PlatyPius

SilentAssassin said:


> *Show us where we could get the strada frame new for $50 with a link?* Heck I'm sure specialized buys their tarmac frames for $100 a piece it doesn't mean you'll ever see that price. *Show us where we could buy the apex group for $470 with a link. Fact is you can't.* No one sells it for that price. Lowest your going to get the apex group is for about $650 in reality and that's cheap. More like $750 if were talking LBS or a retail store like Performance, and that's about the price of the bike. If everyone could get dealer prices for everything then dealers, retail stores, etc. wouldn't exist.
> 
> Specialized, Orbea, etc. gets their high end frames for dirt cheap probably a $100 a piece or less because they buy so much in volume? Still think that generic carbon chinese frame is a good price? You are still paying hundreds more. What dealers get their stuff for doesn't translate into what consumers can get it for.
> 
> Same thing applies to cars, groceries, and pretty much everything else you buy.


You're right; I can't; I'm not giving you my log-in info to wholesale sites. Reading comprehension....it's your friend. I AM an LBS. That's why I specifically said "WHOLESALE" on all of those prices. I, as a retailer, could build that bike for $750 and sell it to you, the customer, for $900. I just wouldn't want to, because the frame is crap.


----------



## Local Hero

PlatyPius said:


> BD Track bike = Fuji.
> 
> Many of BD's bikes are Fujis with different colours and/or labels. This is because Fuji is owned by Ideal, which is a bicycle manufacturer. BD buys Fuji's leftover stock (and, I'm sure, has Ideal build some bikes to their spec) and sells it cheap.


So the BD Team Track and Fuji 2.0 are the exact same frame. But the BD bike has a top of the line Dura Ace crank, chainring, and cog. 

Why wouldn't someone go with the BD bike, seeing how it has the same frame, a superior build and costs $350 less?


If you were in my shoes and looking for a track bike, which bike would you pick? 
(Again, there's no need to limit the choices to the four bikes I found. For example, Trek T1, Cannondale Capo1 and Jamis Sonik are similar).


----------



## SilentAssassin

PlatyPius said:


> You're right; I can't; I'm not giving you my log-in info to wholesale sites. Reading comprehension....it's your friend. I AM an LBS. That's why I specifically said "WHOLESALE" on all of those prices. I, as a retailer, could build that bike for $750 and sell it to you, the customer, for $900. I just wouldn't want to, because the frame is crap.


If you are really an LBS, you couldn't sell it for $900, not after all your overhead costs, and not if you want to stay in business. It wouldn't be profitable at all for you, because you couldn't sell it at a high volume like BD sells their bikes. That's why typically at an LBS, a bike like the super strada will cost you $1300-$1500. Exactly why I don't buy from an LBS. Because I don't want to spend 50% more for marketing crap, and your overhead costs.

As for the frame, either you really believe the marketing crap you put on the labels...or you're just confused. There are a lot of $1000 crap carbon frames in your shop by the way. See how easy that is to say that without giving valid reasons as to why they are crap? :blush2:


----------



## rx-79g

Local Hero said:


> So the BD Team Track and Fuji 2.0 are the exact same frame. But the BD bike has a top of the line Dura Ace crank, chainring, and cog.
> 
> Why wouldn't someone go with the BD bike, seeing how it has the same frame, a superior build and costs $350 less?
> 
> 
> If you were in my shoes and looking for a track bike, which bike would you pick?
> (Again, there's no need to limit the choices to the four bikes I found. For example, Cannondale Capo1 is similar).


No one said you wouldn't. I just looked at the specs of the 4 you posted, and I can't tell a thing about any of them that's important, like the wheels.

As I already said, BD sells some stuff at a great discount - especially their more expensive stuff.

As Platypius and I are trying to express, there is nothing particularly admirable about the Super Strada - it is just about the cheapest possible platform to hang a group on. And since it is intended for entry level cyclists, BDs so-so build and crap cabling can put the newby in a spot.

I don't expect SilentAss. to change his tune. He has post-purchase rationalization too bad, and is a shill for BikesDirect. (TM) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization


----------



## johnny dollar

rx-79g said:


> As Platypius and I are trying to express, there is *nothing particularly admirable about the Super Strada - it is just about the cheapest possible platform to hang a group on.*


I don't think anyone is saying that the Strada has the best frame ever, or even close to it. In fact, I would totally agree with that latest assessment. But the way you were characterizing BD/Kinesis earlier, you'd have thought they were barely on par with Walmart and due for imminent Assplosion.

Seems to me that your criticism of the Strada derives mostly from your frustration with Silent Assassin. He took a dump all over Chinese carbon in another thread, not unlike the way you reacted to him and dumped all over Taiwanese aluminum here.



rx-79g said:


> crap cabling


Shimano SIS SP and Jagwire is on there. Is this stuff really crap?



SilentAssassin said:


> Show us where we could get the strada frame new for $50 with a link?


:nonod: 

$50 frame wholesale? I'll buy that. I expected a generic race geo road frame, and that's what I got. At 20.8 lbs with pedals and aluminum bottle cage, it's certainly _not_ a featherweight (though the wheels contribute a lot to the weight). 

But why, exactly, would it be crap? Sure it's not the latest and greatest, but crap? (Toothpaste welds are aesthetic, and 'harsh' ride is subjective.)



PlatyPius said:


> That brings us up to $723 for the bike, wholesale.


Paid 799 out the door so it's not like it's a complete ripoff.


----------



## Local Hero

rx-79g said:


> No one said you wouldn't. I just looked at the specs of the 4 you posted, and I can't tell a thing about any of them that's important, like the wheels.


Which would you pick? 

Platypius, feel free to jump in here. Which bike brands do you sell? Almost every manufacturer has put together an aluminum track bike. I know Jamis has the Sonik, Specialized has the Langster and Trek has the TK1. Any insight? 

I'm not going to try to fool you guys. I picked the Motobecane Team Track. It's in my living room. I've had Dura Ace in the past and liked it. It seemed like a great value. I may eventually pick up another set of wheels for the track (such as Mavic Ellipses) or I may build my own wheelset with DA track hubs and some Mavic hoops, but for now, these wheels suit me fine. 

All that said, I'm not trying to justify my purchase. My friend is looking for a bike similar to my own and in a similar price range. It's a little much for us to ride around on the EXACT same bike. He's shopping around and I'm still looking to see what's out there. My question to you guys in sincere. If you were looking for a bike similar to what I got in the $1000 range, what would you pick?



> As I already said, BD sells some stuff at a great discount - especially their more expensive stuff.


I bought a Sram Red bike from BD. As advertised, it came with a Sram Force cassette 


> As Platypius and I are trying to express, there is nothing particularly admirable about the Super Strada - it is just about the cheapest possible platform to hang a group on. And since it is intended for entry level cyclists, BDs so-so build and crap cabling can put the newby in a spot.


There's been some talk about the cables and housing. I don't think the quality of the cables matter much and if it's important to the consumer, it's an easy fix. 

Cables are not like wheels: As far as I know, the quality of cables will probably not change your performance in any noticeable way. Between the cheapest and the most expensive cables, there's not much difference in how the bike shifts or stops. Unless the cables break you never really think of them. 

Not only is there little variance in the performance, there really isn't that much variance in the price. With wheels, you can easily spend $2500. And they might be worth it. Unless you're going for Di2, you'll be hard-pressed to spend more than $50 on the BEST cables out there. (You can get Dura Ace dérailleur and brake cables for $20 and $20.)

Seems like a non-issue to me.


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## rx-79g

Local Hero,

I couldn't pick because none of them list specs that make any sense to me. Without part model names that I can look up, I don't know if the wheels are nice or made of zinc. I hope you got a nice bike, and would not be shocked if that's the case.

The cable issue is simple: BD has a history of exploding shifter housings. When that happens on a ride your drivetrain defaults to the either the low or high gear, front or rear. I've repaired/replaced several. If they are now using brand name cabling, great. Apparently that problem made an impression.

Johnny, 

SilentAss. crapped on people, not frames. And I'm cracking down on his shenanigans - the guy knows very, very little about bicycling in general and the products he likes to compare. But his shilling did inspire me to give you all a little perspective. 

Componentry should be your last concern when buying a bike, not the first, as pushed here. The quality of your ride comes from the frame and wheels. Everything else just allows you to use the frame and wheels. A frame that does nothing more than hold the parts in the right position for riding is not a bike you want to ride.

If I were to go into business selling entry level bikes, I'd take powdercoated Asian built Tange Prestige frames and decent wheels set up with Microshift to keep costs down. That would be a bike worth riding and upgrading. But I realize that it wouldn't sell because the rear derailleur didn't have the right word on it, so there we are.

BD has SOME good deals, for the right people. The truly frugal and mechanically gifted should just build/fix up a used bike, and the real neophites should bite the bullet and buy at a quality LBS. Some people and models BD has make a good fit, and more power to them.


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## Local Hero

rx-79g said:


> SilentAss. crapped on people, not frames. And I'm cracking down on his shenanigans - the guy knows very, very little about bicycling in general and the products he likes to compare. But his shilling did inspire me to give you all a little perspective.


The guy has a way with words. Look through his early post history and you'll see him calling BD owners shills.


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## johnny dollar

rx-79g,

Fair enough. 

I also realize that your specific criticisms of BD and Motobecane could well serve as juxtaposition for SA and his crapping on Chinese carbon enthusiasts.


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## PlatyPius

I have more of an issue with SA than I do with BD. I was just pointing out that I, as a bike shop, could build a similar bike at a similar price point, although with less profit than BD.


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## SilentAssassin

rx-79g said:


> No one said you wouldn't. I just looked at the specs of the 4 you posted, and I can't tell a thing about any of them that's important, like the wheels.
> 
> As I already said, BD sells some stuff at a great discount - especially their more expensive stuff.
> 
> As Platypius and I are trying to express, there is nothing particularly admirable about the Super Strada - it is just about the cheapest possible platform to hang a group on. And since it is intended for entry level cyclists, BDs so-so build and crap cabling can put the newby in a spot.
> 
> I don't expect SilentAss. to change his tune. He has post-purchase rationalization too bad, and is a shill for BikesDirect. (TM) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization


Once again you mock the kinesis frame, yet you said it yourself that kinesis makes frames for "high end" brand names(Specialized, Santa Cruz, etc.).

You still provide no real data or valid explanations as to why you think the Super Strada is a sub-par frame compared to other frames. You make these claims yet you don't have real data to back them up. Fact is, your just spewing your opinion based on nothing. You are not a frame builder, you haven't done any tests with these frames, etc.

My Strada frame is great, and the bike as a whole is very pleasing to ride. The orange color is outstanding and is my favorite color as you can see from my avatar(custom orange jersey). Group set is exquisite. I've literally dropped guys on 4-5k Cervelos with Zipp Wheels on the Strada. Not saying my bike is better but maybe they just spent too much on theirs? Just saying, I think you've been drinking the Trek/Specialized/Cannondale marketing KoolAid.


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## rx-79g

Oh, are you still here? 

Platypus made some comments about the $50 Kinesis frame, but I'll summarize: Straight, round tubes of inappropriate diameters. The one and only frame I've ever owned that would constitute a production frame was a Cannondale. 21 years ago they were doing all sorts of things to stiffen aluminum where appropriate and take the shock out of it in other spots. Since then the tube shaping has just improved from there. But the tubing diameters on your thingy are clearly very narrow in downtube and chainstays and rather heavy in the seatstays - like something designed in the early '80s. I have only been riding and in bike biz for that amount of time, so my knowledge is, of course, limited. It would be, even if I was frame builder, because no one in the US bothers to make aluminum bikes anymore.

However, given your frequent need to assert some of the most foolish newbie sort of trash, I think it fair to say that you absolutely have no experience assessing the best qualities of ride and geometry. I would bet you wouldn't be able to tell if I filled your tires with water instead of air. That's what I'd expect from someone who compares bicycle performance based on who he "drops".

The rest of my bikes were made by the best craftsmen in the US. Since you're already broadly proclaimed that the loving products of the worlds best frame builders aren't worth it, you would have no idea what anything like that rides like, anyway. Or maybe you'll change your mind, like you did about BikesDirect?

This is clearly just my opinion. I think people can read what I have to say and the stuff you write, and make up their own minds about which sort of opinion holds more water. (You don't get to count the water I put in your tires.)


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## rx-79g

BTW, Kinesis doesn't _design_ the bikes for the companies you mention. Specialized has a huge design team in California that specifies exactly what geometry, tubing, features Kinesis is going to weld up for them and their customers. Kinesis does a great job welding, though. Kind of the difference between an architect and plumber.

Again, who designed your frame?


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## Local Hero




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## dave2pvd

SilentAssassin said:


> My frame is great, very pleasing, outstanding, exquisite. I've dropped guys on 4-5k Cervelos with Zipp Wheels


Awesome. :thumbsup: 

Now go ride it and quit spending endless hours on the internet justifying your purchase.


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## SilentAssassin

@rx79-g

Alright so go spend thousands on your over-hyped frames. You clearly drank the marketing Koolaid and caught the virus, but alas, at least your happy with what you ride, and so am I, so what is the point of continuing to argue? Quit spending hours on end trying to justify the thousands you spend on bike frames, only to get dropped by guys like me with the Strada. 

Yes, I've called a lot of people BD shills. I have the Le Champion Titanium with Sram Rival, The Super Strada w/Sram apex, and the Windsor Tourist. All our great high quality bikes.

One of my biggest issues with BD right now is no orange painted titanium frames. That Sir, is my biggest pet peeve with BD...not having orange available on all frames.


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## rx-79g

Please don't worry about my time. I type fast.

And I didn't spend thousands. I bought the Merlin and Litespeeds used. My second favorite titanium bike cost $700 to build up and weighs 18 pounds.

Yes, I am quite satisfied.


FYI, a bead blasted ti frame like yours could be powdercoated orange for less than $100 bucks, since it wouldn't need any more prep than the stickers removed and a degreasing.


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## SilentAssassin

I could of bought a Merlin used built up for about $600 with full dura ace. After riding it however I could see why the seller was trying to get rid of it. Not a pleasing ride at all. That, or he stole it I guess.


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## SilentAssassin

rx-79g said:


> Please don't worry about my time. I type fast.
> 
> And I didn't spend thousands. I bought the Merlin and Litespeeds used. My second favorite titanium bike cost $700 to build up and weighs 18 pounds.
> 
> Yes, I am quite satisfied.
> 
> 
> FYI, a bead blasted ti frame like yours could be powdercoated orange for less than $100 bucks, since it wouldn't need any more prep than the stickers removed and a degreasing.


You should post your "great deal" and find in the Merlin section. We all know your full of it by now. Any who...

Back to reality. Did a 40 mile ride on the Strada. Bike rides just as well as that Caad-9 I demoed at the LBS. My only complaint with the Strada right now is the tires. I'd like something a bit more durable and puncture resistant.


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## Axe

rx-79g said:


> I couldn't pick because none of them list specs that make any sense to me.


Then you should work on getting some sense about bike parts.




rx-79g said:


> Componentry should be your last concern when buying a bike, not the first, as pushed here. The quality of your ride comes from the frame and wheels. Everything else just allows you to use the frame and wheels. A frame that does nothing more than hold the parts in the right position for riding is not a bike you want to ride.


Grade A boloney. Light, well performing set of components does make a lot of tangible difference - and that is why people do pay money for it. The most important thing about the frame is its geometry, weight and material, in that order. Everything else is mostly in your head.

By the way - your Litespeed does not ride as well as BD's titanium - many of LS do not even use shaped and butted tubesets. The same story for BD's mountain bike frames. 



rx-79g said:


> The cable issue is simple: BD has a history of exploding shifter housings..


BS. Fine generic housing, just like any other complete bike out there. If you want to change it - what, $5 and 15 minutes of work?


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## Local Hero

1) I'd buy a full dura ace merlin for $600. 

B) I don't know much about the exploding housing issues and I'm no mechanic. But I get the feeling that the bikes with exploded shifter housings also had rusty cables, faded paint, sun-cracked saddles and rusty chains/cassettes. You know the type of bikes I'm talking about. The ones that get left locked up outside of a dorm all summer.


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