# Out of saddle pedaling; how, why, and when?



## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

I seem to have to trouble with out of the saddle pedaling. Maybe I'm not in greatest shape, but whenever I stand up, my quads feel like they're on fire, and it's very hard for me to do it without upshifting two or three cogs. In other words, I can't maintain my normal cadence (90 RPM) when I'm out of saddle. The only reason I even get out of the saddle its to give my soft tissue some breathing room, so I do that at regular interval. Maybe it's just me, but I seem to be able to do everything better while on the saddle; sprinting, hills, etc.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Standing requires more stabilizing muscles and is harder... so yes.. your legs are going to hurt more while standing. As with any training you need to practice standing to get better at standing. A lot of people drop to a slower cadence when they stand as well so I'm not surprised your can't maintain your naturally selected cadence. 

Just keep practicing. When you stand on hills set a goal.. the next sign.. the next tree whatever.. push past if before sitting down. It'll take time but eventually standing won't be as difficult.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Out of the saddle pedaling or "danseuse" is done _

1. when you need to do a short but more powerful push. for example climbing a short steep slope, sprinting to a line, accelerating to catch a breakup etc
2. when your @ss hurts

It does use another set of muscles and fibers than pedaling seated so you have to train to develop those muscles.

HTH


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

SFTifoso said:


> I seem to have to trouble with out of the saddle pedaling. Maybe I'm not in greatest shape, but whenever I stand up, my quads feel like they're on fire, and it's very hard for me to do it without upshifting two or three cogs. In other words, *I can't maintain my normal cadence (90 RPM) when I'm out of saddle.* The only reason I even get out of the saddle its to give my soft tissue some breathing room, so I do that at regular interval. Maybe it's just me, but *I seem to be able to do everything better while on the saddle*; sprinting, hills, etc.


Considering the two bold statements, I think you'll find the link below helpful. I've posted it a few times. 
http://www.cptips.com/climb.htm


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

What are your height and weight? Bigger riders generally don't stand as much.

Most riders use a lower cadence when standing. How much lower varies, and you can train to "dance on the pedals" faster, but it takes practice. Lower cadences are in fact one of the reasons for standing. If you're climbing a hill that's steep enough to prohibit your preferred cruising cadence in your lowest gear, standing helps you deliver the necessary power at the low cadence, without undue joint strain. I'd suggest not paying attention to cadence numbers for a while, and just trying to find what's comfortable.

Your mention of burning quads makes me suspect you would benefit by shifting weight more forward. I find less quad strain when standing, because I'm pushing straight down at the center of the power stroke. My hips are vertically over the pedal when the crank is straight forward. When I look straight down, I'm looking at the hub. My knees almost touch the bar. Try getting more forward and see if that helps.

Some riders stand infrequently, some a lot. It's useful to know how to do it well and comfortably, for those times when it helps (steep climbs, sudden accelerations, giving your butt a break -- a good idea, BTW), but you may be a rider who just won't want to do it much. I stand frequently, on both flats and climbs. On a climb, I can easily stay out of the saddle for a minute or more without anything feeling strained. But that may not turn out to be your style.

Hand position is another issue. Most riders use the hoods most often. I can stand comfortably with hands on the hoods, bends or drops (but NOT the tops - you need wide hand placement for stability). Experiment to see what works best for you.

I don't agree with everything in the link PJ posted. In particular, the admonition that it's more efficient to stay seated as much as possible is based at least in part on the false premise that you "pull up" on the pedals for some of your power, and that contact with the saddle helps that. It just ain't true. There is some recruitment of different muscle groups, and probably some loss of efficiency in theory. But that may be entirely offset by the benefits of resting some of the muscles you use seated, resulting in less fatigue. In any event, different riders have different styles. When I hear people say standing is inefficient, I always think about those guys climbing in the Tour de France, standing for minutes at a time. I don't think they have settled on an inefficient mode.


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## savagemann (Dec 17, 2011)

Out of saddle pedaling is something I have been working on a lot recently.
When I first started working on it, I could barely go 30-40 seconds without massive burning in my legs.
Over the last few months, I have seen much improvement.
I work on it a little every ride.
It helps a lot on long sustained climbs.
Dropping between 1-3 gears, and using your body weight to turn the pedals can give your legs a nice rest.
I recently did a ride that had a few brutal climbs.
One in particular had a section that was about a 13% avg grade, with areas over 20%.
There was no way I was gonna be able to sit and spin up that with the gearing on my bike.
I ended up standing for the whole thing. It was about 5 minutes of pain to crest the top.
Had I not worked on standing so much recently, I would have most likely needed to dismount and walk some of it like several other people on the same ride were doing.
You will pedal at a much lower cadence.
The fact that you are dropping into higher gears before standing is a good thing.
I've also worked on shifting through through gears while standing.
Its hard to do as you need to soft pedal a bit while doing so, otherwise you can do some damage to the bike.
Just keep working on it.
Its nice to give your butt a break every once in a while too.
Especially on long rides.
I try and stand every 5 or so minutes for a little at a time to relieve pressure on the soft bits and keep the blood flowing.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JCavilia said:


> *I don't agree with everything in the link PJ posted.* In particular, the admonition that it's more efficient to stay seated as much as possible is based at least in part on the false premise that you "pull up" on the pedals for some of your power, and that contact with the saddle helps that. It just ain't true. There is some recruitment of different muscle groups, and probably some loss of efficiency in theory. But that may be entirely offset by the benefits of resting some of the muscles you use seated, resulting in less fatigue. In any event, different riders have different styles. When I hear people say standing is inefficient, I always think about those guys climbing in the Tour de France, standing for minutes at a time. I don't think they have settled on an inefficient mode.


That makes two of us.  I agree that the reason the author initially cites (pulling up the unweighted pedal) isn't true, but IMO the remainder does generally hold true - and they go on to offer instances where there are benefits in alternating sitting/ standing. 

I think it's pretty well established that standing takes more energy, but as you say, that may well be offset by the benefits - and your example (those TdF climbs) is IMO a good one.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> That makes two of us.  I agree that the reason the author initially cites (pulling up the unweighted pedal) isn't true, but IMO the remainder does generally hold true - and they go on to offer instances where there are benefits in alternating sitting/ standing.
> 
> I think it's pretty well established that standing takes more energy, but as you say, that may well be offset by the benefits - and your example (those TdF climbs) is IMO a good one.


Alternating positions is, IME, good practice for a whole bunch of reasons. Even on a flat ride I'm jumping up every few minutes, and virtually every time I want to accelerate hard. I also commute on fixed-gear bikes, so standing frequently is pretty much a necessity to develop the power needed to accelerate at low cadences, and for any climb beyond the gentlest grade. Riding FG quickly gets you very accustomed to standing. I once had a seat-clamp bolt fail halfway to work. I removed the seat post and had to ride the rest of the way standing, without being able to coast. Doing that without major leg fatigue was an interesting challenge.

Which prompts another suggestion, SFT. If you want to force yourself to learn to stand comfortably, take the saddle and post off your bike and go for a little ride.

Just kidding (I think ;-)


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## mmlee (Apr 15, 2012)

Good question and great replies.... I learned a lot from reading this thread. 

In almost three months of cycling, I've moved up from 15-20 sec to 1+ minutes "without the massive burning in the legs" and can push myself for almost 2 min. Luckily for me I have a nearby college campus that after work is pretty empty and has a section of 1+ mile wide multi-use path with 6-8% grade that I can practice on without any traffic. 

I just marvel with amazement at watching (replays of T.deF.) someone like Marco Pantani climbing the Alps. It's poetry in motion........


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## jtsarby (Mar 21, 2009)

Be careful standing when riding with a group. I know a few people that when they stand, they seem to throw their bike back a bit. If you are in a tight group or of someone is in your slip stream, give them a verbal warning before you stand. I am a Clydesdale and I only stand on steep climbs and to give my junk some relief.


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## xj bmx (Jun 12, 2009)

Ride my (bmx)bike for a day, that's all we can do is stand, if you sit you really carve your butt crack. That should toughen you up!

(Sorry, lame post I know but I need to get my post up so I can start a thread)


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## iclypso (Jul 6, 2011)

I was actually recalling my bmx days and remembering how much easier it is to stand on those bikes. Dunno if it's the shorter cranks or just because I was a young lad.


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

Well, I'm 5'11" 196 lbs. So maybe my weight is one of the problems. On my last 30 mi. ride I did do a little bit better, but still the difference in speed when standing vs on the saddle is 3 mph.

Here in L.A. the bike paths constantly dip below streets/hwys. On the way up, out of these underpasses, I can power out, while on the saddle, and maintain my cadence and speed (19-20 mph) all the way through. If I stand however, I can't go faster than 17 mph and I'm winded when I reach the top.

I'll keep practicing. As long as I can stand more often for saddle area comfort, I'll be happy. Gotta say though, I don't see the bigger guys in the pro-peloton stand very often. I was watching old vids of Jan Ulrich; the guy seems to be glued to that saddle. Whereas someone like Contador, hardly uses the saddle on climbs.

Thanks for the replies and for the link PJ.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

SFTifoso said:


> Gotta say though, I don't see the bigger guys in the pro-peloton stand very often. I was watching old vids of Jan Ulrich; the guy seems to be glued to that saddle. Whereas someone like Contador, hardly uses the saddle on climbs.
> 
> Thanks for the replies and for the link PJ.


I think your observation points up the crux of this matter. That being, differences in riding styles. I've seen guys get out of the saddle on 'climbs' that I'd stay seated, maybe downshift one cog to maintain cadence (what I call my rhythm) and I'd be over the top. I put climb in quotes because it was all of about 200 feet. My point is, I subscribe to the 'stay seated' philosophy because it helps me keep that rhythm. Others, obviously don't.

By offering this, I'm not suggesting that you abandon your efforts to develop your out of the saddle skills because there's a time/ place for that, but it's also important to keep in mind that what works for one rider, may not work for another.

One last point re: the pros. If you notice, generally speaking, they leave the saddle when they're climbing and cadence drops. Once they regain that cadence, most resume the climb in a seated position.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> I think your observation points up the crux of this matter. That being, differences in riding styles. .


The classic illustration is the 1998 Tour de France. After Pantani attacked in the rain on the Galibier and Ulrich blew up, losing several minutes, Ulrich attacked several times on later mountain stages. Each time, Pantani went right with him, and there is classic footage of the two riding side by side, Ulrich seated, grinding a big gear, and Pantani, up and dancing on the pedals, actually turning a faster cadence than Ulrich. They were both climbing fast, getting the same results but in completely different ways.


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## xj bmx (Jun 12, 2009)

iclypso said:


> I was actually recalling my bmx days and remembering how much easier it is to stand on those bikes. Dunno if it's the shorter cranks or just because I was a young lad.


I'm sure its mostly the geometry/youth, I know my cranks are longer(180mm) than what I've been seeing around here


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## 4Crawler (Jul 13, 2011)

SFTifoso said:


> Well, I'm 5'11" 196 lbs. So maybe my weight is one of the problems. On my last 30 mi. ride I did do a little bit better, but still the difference in speed when standing vs on the saddle is 3 mph.
> 
> Here in L.A. the bike paths constantly dip below streets/hwys. On the way up, out of these underpasses, I can power out, while on the saddle, and maintain my cadence and speed (19-20 mph) all the way through. If I stand however, I can't go faster than 17 mph and I'm winded when I reach the top.
> 
> ...


One thing I notice while climbing is that the gear ratio I use affects whether I can stand up or not. If I am in too low a gear, there is nothing to push against on the pedals. That is the reflected inertia of the bike+rider through the pedals is less than what I can push while standing, so the pedal just drops down. If I shift up a few gears, there is more resistance on the pedals and I can ride that easier standing up. That said, I can't stand up for too long these days, just a year back into riding after maybe 20 years off. In my younger days, I stood up a lot more on climbs, but I also rode taller gearing in those days. 

On my touring bike, I have a 24-34 low gear and that is just too low to stand up in on say a 15% grade. On my road bike, I have a 24-28 low gear and that one I can just manage to stand up for 100 yds. or so on that same grade. In my earlier riding days, I think I ran 40-34 gear on the same touring bike and could stand up and climb easily. As others mentioned earlier, I too have been working on extending the length of time standing. I mainly use it for a change of pace and to stretch out the back from a long stint of seated spinning.

I think of it like trying to throw a shot put and a baseball with the same technique. With the heavy shot, you can really put some force into the weight. With the light baseball, your arm straightens out instantly and you don't get as much force into the ball.


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## afsf (May 13, 2012)

When your tush is in pain and / or you need a burst of speed


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## v639dragoon (May 21, 2012)

Def stand up every once in a while so your bottom gets some feeling back into it. Also it's nice to stand up when you want to get a really powerful pedal and push to accelerate fast.


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