# Breaking the 20mph barrier: Legs vs. Cardio; Training Plateau?



## Lawfarm

I've been riding regularly/seriously for about a year. This spring/summer has been the first time I've been really focusing on finding ride time, and I've been doing 100-200 miles/week (usually 100-150 ish) in 3-4 rides per week.

On a 25 mile solo ride, with the gentle hills that IL has, I can average 20mph without a problem. Up the distance to 40-50 miles, and I can usually get pretty close to 20, still. The problem is that I've been stuck at 20 mph for about 2 months. Early spring, I was doing 15-16mph averages, and had a quick build to 20mph averages in a couple months...but I seem to have plateaued.

In once-weekly group rides (typically 25-35 miles), I usually run out of cardio before I run out of legs. Group has been averaging 20-23mph. In solo rides, I run out of leg (major thigh burn) before I run out of cardio. When I get dropped on group rides, it is on the last 5-10 miles, if the group steps up the pace to 25-ish mph.

If I'm cycling a longer distance, I can hold 18-ish mph average seemingly indefinitely (15 on my cross bike, 18 on my road bike). I've done a solo century at 17.9mph, and a number of metrics at 18-18.5. 

I've tried riding and watching the cadence/speed/HR religiously, to push harder, and I've tried riding while ignoring the computer, pushing as hard as I can to see if it's just mental block. Surprisingly, it doesn't appreciably change the results. I seem to have plateaued in some fashion, and I don't know how to break it. 

(Trying to give enough detail with all of the above). Cliff notes: Had significant improvement, very rapidly, up to averaging 20mph. Can't seem to increase average speed beyond that. What to do next?


----------



## OHroadie

Get into some faster group rides. A 20-23 average is fast, but do they do breakaways, sprints and such? That will get you use to riding in tight groups at speed. Then find yourself a A+ group and try to hold on as long as possible. Once you start covering breaks or sprints in the mid to upper twenties, your strength will improve dramatically. Next thing you no you will be in a pace line pushing nearly 30mph. 

By the way, I was in your exact same shoes last year.


----------



## kbiker3111

The fastest way to increase your speed will be to ride lower. Use your drops, get your bars as low as possible. If you're in IL, you're not going up a lot of mountains, so get used to getting low. It'll never be a comfortable position, but it should be functional.


----------



## den bakker

aerodynamics is a b!tch. 
intervals help. shorter periods at higher intensity. E.g. instead of riding 25 miles at the same speed you ride easy some of the time and hard other times. On those rides you will _not_! be faster but you will improve your general fitness and can later rider faster on your loops.


----------



## BicycleBastard

den bakker said:


> aerodynamics is a b!tch.
> intervals help. shorter periods at higher intensity. E.g. instead of riding 25 miles at the same speed you ride easy some of the time and hard other times. On those rides you will _not_! be faster but you will improve your general fitness and can later rider faster on your loops.


What he said. 

It sounds like your putting in some solid base miles but you need to adjust your training to up your threshold. One interval that really helped me increase my max HR and thus increase my cardio is a sprint interval using electric poles.

Its really simple. Start out with a light, 10 minute, warmup. Once you have warmed up and are ready then get into your big chain ring and sprint from one power pole to the next. Back off for one pole than sprint to 2 poles, back off for 2 poles then sprint to 3 and rest for 3. Continue that until you have sprinted 5 power poles then simply start the process in reverse. Sprinting from 5 poles down to 1.

Its a tough workout the first couple times you do it and you made need to take a little extra breather the further you sprint. Thats OK, dont kill yourself. Do this interval 3-5 times over the course of a 25-30 mile ride and you will notice an improvement soon after. It wont increase your speed significantly right away but your cardio will improve enough that you shouldnt have any more problems hanging with the group in those last 10 miles.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST

Unless you are comparing rides up same steep climb, speed is a poor indicator of fitness improvements.

If increasing average speed is your aim, then there are only 3 things you can do:
- increase your power output
- reduce the resistance forces acting against you (some things you have control over, some you don't)
- pace better


----------



## RUFUSPHOTO

Intervals are your friend for gaining speed. 

It has also helped a good bit while climbing, my main weakness.


----------



## Lawfarm

Stupid question: define sprinting. 

Big gear, stand and hammer? Medium get, sit and spin? Other? What precisely do you mean by "sprint"?


----------



## anotherguy

Rider harder than what it takes for you to average 20 mph for as long as you can. Recover. Repeat.


----------



## choocher

Lawfarm said:


> I've been riding regularly/seriously for about a year. This spring/summer has been the first time I've been really focusing on finding ride time, and I've been doing 100-200 miles/week (usually 100-150 ish) in 3-4 rides per week.
> 
> On a 25 mile solo ride, with the gentle hills that IL has, I can average 20mph without a problem. Up the distance to 40-50 miles, and I can usually get pretty close to 20, still. The problem is that I've been stuck at 20 mph for about 2 months. Early spring, I was doing 15-16mph averages, and had a quick build to 20mph averages in a couple months...but I seem to have plateaued.
> 
> In once-weekly group rides (typically 25-35 miles), I usually run out of cardio before I run out of legs. Group has been averaging 20-23mph. In solo rides, I run out of leg (major thigh burn) before I run out of cardio. When I get dropped on group rides, it is on the last 5-10 miles, if the group steps up the pace to 25-ish mph.
> 
> If I'm cycling a longer distance, I can hold 18-ish mph average seemingly indefinitely (15 on my cross bike, 18 on my road bike). I've done a solo century at 17.9mph, and a number of metrics at 18-18.5.
> 
> I've tried riding and watching the cadence/speed/HR religiously, to push harder, and I've tried riding while ignoring the computer, pushing as hard as I can to see if it's just mental block. Surprisingly, it doesn't appreciably change the results. I seem to have plateaued in some fashion, and I don't know how to break it.
> 
> (Trying to give enough detail with all of the above). Cliff notes: Had significant improvement, very rapidly, up to averaging 20mph. Can't seem to increase average speed beyond that. What to do next?


Try this. Three different times (on the same road/course, on different days), do a max effort tt for one hour. Average those average speeds for your average of the average. Sounds funny, but I do mean what I wrote. 

Next, twice per week, warm up for 1/2 an hour, or so. Then do a series of 5 min. intervals at your 1 hr. tt average speed pace with 1 min. breaks in between. Then warm down for 1/2 an hour, or so. If you do it to the letter, you will be very tired in the short term and faster in the long term.

This is what it will look like:
1/2 hour warm up (high rpm and 1 or 2 max efforts to open up the legs)
5-8 5 min. intervals at 1 hr. tt pace, 1 min. rest in between (real rest, but no more than 1 min.)
1/2 hour warm down (high rpm, slow it down for real and just let the previous effort soak in)

This work out has helped me a lot. It works for me (and has worked for many others). Give it a month, it will give you 1 or 2 mph at the top end. I would bet that you won't get dropped anymore.


----------



## spade2you

With the OP riding serious for only about a year is it perhaps a possibility that the rider has gained all that he's going to gain this season?


----------



## Speedi Pig

Excelent training advice above, but also consider that we build our own barriers. Would you consider 32.2 kph to be a "barrier?"


----------



## Rugergundog

I am in darn near the EXACT situation you are experiencing, oddly from just the opposite type of training. Having been on the bike since this spring, however my workouts have been high intensity lower miles. In fact i would beg to bet my weekly miles while doing the Carmichael Plan were only 100'ish. 

Despite the focus on intensity and intervals i still encounter the situations that you do.

I have a become to have a feeling that I (and prob you) have likely maxed our expected gains for the period we are looking back on.......be it we took opposite approaches.

From everything ive learned from other riders, this board and reading there is a percieved barrier that is right around the 20-21mph mark for a lot of people. Some attribute it to aerodynamic drag coefficient and yadda yadda math stuff at 20mph begins to compound more than it does at slower speeds. Others claim physiological stuff of our body effort to propel the machine...yadda yadda. I tend to think its prob both. Seems a lot of people gain a fitness level capable of riding along at 20-22mph, however the gains to go even a 1mph or so faster come much slower and with much more work. I compare this to as a runner, most of us miler guys could run a 4:15 mile on generic workouts....but to skip up under the 4:10 mark it takes a much more focused approach and talent (for most).

Any hooter.........i think i need more base miles as you are doing to stimulate my body to adapt, while you prob need the intervals to stimulate yours. I think we just worked from opposite ends and the gains we now are going to get will be much smaller at a time.

Good luck!

Oh yea i hate riding in the drop position, hurts my hands and i just feel it harder to breath...but as soon as i do drop i see my cyclometer go up instantly....and it stays up.


----------



## kini

Yep, the faster you go the harder it gets to improve. Doesn't matter if it's running, swimming, cycling, drag racing. Laws of physics are absolute. Wind resistance increases exponentially. That's why there's really a fine line with being fast locally and being fast enough to be a pro. 

Anyway, ride faster for longer periods, do more short fast rides, do hill repeats. Can you run? If so, do running intervals too to boost your cardio.


----------



## cyclesport45

Get a good night's sleep. Get a good warm-up on the bike, Accelerate to 30 mph, hold it until brain matter comes out your ears. Recover (anywhere from 1 to 1000 minutes) Repeat until no more brains left to squirt out your ears. Get a good night's sleep.

One probably should do no more than once weekly.


----------



## BicycleBastard

Rugergundog said:


> I am in darn near the EXACT situation you are experiencing, oddly from just the opposite type of training. Having been on the bike since this spring, however my workouts have been high intensity lower miles. In fact i would beg to bet my weekly miles while doing the Carmichael Plan were only 100'ish.
> 
> Despite the focus on intensity and intervals i still encounter the situations that you do.
> 
> I have a become to have a feeling that I (and prob you) have likely maxed our expected gains for the period we are looking back on.......be it we took opposite approaches.
> 
> From everything ive learned from other riders, this board and reading there is a percieved barrier that is right around the 20-21mph mark for a lot of people. Some attribute it to aerodynamic drag coefficient and yadda yadda math stuff at 20mph begins to compound more than it does at slower speeds. Others claim physiological stuff of our body effort to propel the machine...yadda yadda. I tend to think its prob both. Seems a lot of people gain a fitness level capable of riding along at 20-22mph, however the gains to go even a 1mph or so faster come much slower and with much more work. I compare this to as a runner, most of us miler guys could run a 4:15 mile on generic workouts....but to skip up under the 4:10 mark it takes a much more focused approach and talent (for most).
> 
> Any hooter.........i think i need more base miles as you are doing to stimulate my body to adapt, while you prob need the intervals to stimulate yours. I think we just worked from opposite ends and the gains we now are going to get will be much smaller at a time.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Oh yea i hate riding in the drop position, hurts my hands and i just feel it harder to breath...but as soon as i do drop i see my cyclometer go up instantly....and it stays up.


Yes and no.

Certainly we all have our own physical ceiling that we will have to face at some point but to say that there is a wall you simply cannot cross is the same thing as giving up. It takes real effort and training to be able to go further, faster. It takes time and dedication to go beyond what your body wouldnt normally be capable of. In the case of cycling, it also takes pain and that cant be helped. 

Dont ever sell yourself short, dont ever let doubt convince you of what you can and cannot do. Go out and work harder, drive further, and do it all over again the next day.


----------



## Dajianshan

Lots of good stuff above. 

It sounds like you do a lot of riding, but need to increase the intensity of your riding. 

Each week I do a 50k TT. This is to push my maximum sustained effort. I follow up with interval training on a hill behind my house. Then on weekends I go for distance and challenge (ex: 8000ft of climbing in 200k).

I remember when 17mph seemed like an insurmountable barrier. 

Now my TT average comes out to about 21mph, but that is calculating stop lights and evening traffic. My pace tends to be in the mid 20's. Going into the drops will increase my pace about 1mph to 1.5mph.

Rest, sleep and recover.


----------



## DMH2979

One way to get "faster" -- like Alex said, stop focusing on speed/mph/kph. Speed really means nothing in terms of fitness. I can do a 3 hour ride, 50 miles (hmm you might say that's slow) but if you have a 20 mile climb in it, I promise you I'll be doing more work than 3 hours, 70 mile ride sitting in the middle of a pack. 

Same goes for riding into a block headwind. This is why it drives me crazy when people talk about rides in terms of miles and not time. A "20 miler" means nothing to me whatsoever. It is also much easier to plan when you go by time "Hey I'll be out for a 2-3 hour ride". 

Focus on time and HR (if no powermeter). Use the rest as something "interesting". That being said, I am always amazed when people say they average 20+. I am a cat 1 and rarely average over 18 or 19 (all things being equal). That's because I'll do intervals at way above 20 and recover at way below (like 12 mph) and on my easy days I'll ride less then 15 mph. 

Of course, I don't use these averages other than a "hmm that is interesting" but in an attempt to measure apples to apples . . .


----------



## Kerry Irons

*Much more work*



Rugergundog said:


> From everything ive learned from other riders, this board and reading there is a percieved barrier that is right around the 20-21mph mark for a lot of people. Some attribute it to aerodynamic drag coefficient and yadda yadda math stuff at 20mph begins to compound more than it does at slower speeds. Others claim physiological stuff of our body effort to propel the machine...yadda yadda. I tend to think its prob both. Seems a lot of people gain a fitness level capable of riding along at 20-22mph, however the gains to go even a 1mph or so faster come much slower and with much more work.


Here's some "math stuff" for you. 21 mph requires 13% more power than 20 mph. That is a BIG jump. 22 mph means 27% more power than 20 mph. These kinds of power increases do not come easily and apparently are about at the level that an average, fit rider can obtain. People who can go faster are out on the shoulder of the bell curve of humanity. People who can ride the Tour de France are WAY out on the edge of the bell curve. The rest of us, regardless of how well or how much we train, which supplements we use, and how good our diets are, will never, ever get there.


----------



## Rugergundog

Kerry: Those numbers you posted speak to the truth! And knowing that it also become a mental game. It can be motivating as heck to go on a ride feel good and pull along over 21mph. In fact a week back i did a solo training ride pulling along at 22mph with spurts over 24mph........while the same was true to totally crush my spirit on the same route; same condition my body was hurting to pull along at 19mph. All this talk of wind resistance makes me appreciate my small body frame and understand why my riding buddy feels like a mac truck against the wind.


----------



## Cableguy

DMH2979 said:


> Focus on time and HR (if no powermeter). Use the rest as something "interesting". That being said, I am always amazed when people say they average 20+. I am a cat 1 and rarely average over 18 or 19 (all things being equal). That's because I'll do intervals at way above 20 and recover at way below (like 12 mph) and on my easy days I'll ride less then 15 mph.


The easy day speed you mentioned seems... way too easy for a cat 1  I mean, a 15mph "easy day" ride would be about 80 watts (flat) to 130 watts (rolling and hilly)... What heart rate percentage do you target during your easy day rides? For my recovery rides I do 60-65% max HR, which for me, personally as a cat 5, is like 170 watts and way above 15mph. I don't think I could maintain my sanity riding for hours at like 100 watts unless the scenery was amazing, and again I'm only cat 5.


----------



## Undecided

Cableguy said:


> The easy day speed you mentioned seems... way too easy for a cat 1  I mean, a 15mph "easy day" ride would be about 80 watts (flat) to 130 watts (rolling and hilly)... What heart rate percentage do you target during your easy day rides? For my recovery rides I do 60-65% max HR, which for me, personally as a cat 5, is like 170 watts and way above 15mph. I don't think I could maintain my sanity riding for hours at like 100 watts unless the scenery was amazing, and again I'm only cat 5.


Not who you asked, but I do my recovery rides at about 30%-45% of what I consider threshold power (i.e., "CP60"). I don't really train with any focus on HR, but I look at it after most rides and know that on such a recovery ride I'm mostly between 95 and 110 bpm, almost never above 115 bpm, with an average of around 105 bpm; I think my LTHR is ~174 bpm and max is ~194 (but like I said, HR isn't something I train by).


----------



## Cableguy

Undecided said:


> Not who you asked, but I do my recovery rides at about 30%-45% of what I consider threshold power (i.e., "CP60"). I don't really train with any focus on HR, but I look at it after most rides and know that on such a recovery ride I'm mostly between 95 and 110 bpm, almost never above 115 bpm, with an average of around 105 bpm; I think my LTHR is ~174 bpm and max is ~194 (but like I said, HR isn't something I train by).


With a recovery average of 95 to 110 and a max of 194, that's 49%-57% of max HR for you. Maybe my 60-65% is a little too hard for recovery.


----------



## DMH2979

The main thing new riders make a mistake of doing is going too hard on easy days and not going hard enough on hard days.

I can tell you that I've ridden with lots of pros/friends (Boulder, my old home town is filled with them so . . .). My easy days were no easier then theirs. Jeremy Horgan Kobeiski (one of the best pro mountain bikers in the country) used to say that if I start to sweat on a recovery day I know I am going too hard (yes that is said tongue in cheek but the sentiment is there). I could almost gaurantee that if you spoke to anyone who has been riding/racing for a long time, their recovery days are "stupid slow."

Personally, I don't think there is a "too easy" for recovery days. Usually I have gone so hard in the day/days proceeding that 150 watts feels hard. I don't know what percentage of HR I am at but my recovery days are all under 170 watts.


----------



## Cableguy

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I think I'm going too hard for recovery efforts.


----------



## velocanman

I agree with the other posts that you need to put in some max efforts. Group rides with attacks are great training for this, just be careful not to add too much high-intensity volume.


----------



## edhchoe

cyclesport45 said:


> Get a good night's sleep. Get a good warm-up on the bike, Accelerate to 30 mph, hold it until brain matter comes out your ears. Recover (anywhere from 1 to 1000 minutes) Repeat until no more brains left to squirt out your ears. Get a good night's sleep.
> 
> One probably should do no more than once weekly.


I like that method. Sounds simple yet promising. :thumbsup:


----------



## Harry potter's madone

*Fast?*

So I have a question. I am a D1 college athlete who bikes over the summer as a way to maintain baseline fitness. I'm 6'5 180lbs. I have a trek madone 5.2 and typically ride 30 to 40 miles at a time, nothing crazy, at 20-25mph depending on wind and my heart rate is avg of 125-132bpm (my resting is about a 38). Where I ride is mainly flat but has some short ( like 1 min short) steep hills about a 10% gradient, these rides aren't hard for me, just a way to stay active and loose. I don't need any training suggestions I was just wondering if this is fast, cause I usually do all the passing on the road


----------



## spade2you

Harry potter's madone said:


> So I have a question. I am a D1 college athlete who bikes over the summer as a way to maintain baseline fitness. I'm 6'5 180lbs. I have a trek madone 5.2 and typically ride 30 to 40 miles at a time, nothing crazy, at 20-25mph depending on wind and my heart rate is avg of 125-132bpm (my resting is about a 38). Where I ride is mainly flat but has some short ( like 1 min short) steep hills about a 10% gradient, these rides aren't hard for me, just a way to stay active and loose. I don't need any training suggestions I was just wondering if this is fast, cause I usually do all the passing on the road


You should post this in 3 more places. That's how you know YOU'RE fast.

Are Treks good bikes?


----------



## EMB145 Driver

spade2you said:


> You should post this in 3 more places. That's how you know YOU'RE fast.
> 
> Are Treks good bikes?


Haha! He'd be fast if he could post it in all forums simultaneously!


----------



## spade2you

EMB145 Driver said:


> Haha! He'd be fast if he could post it in all forums simultaneously!


Our server would be fast if he could do that, although somehow the spammers can do it. Post 2 things in an hour and the server is too busy, perhaps it's because I don't ride a Trek.


----------



## Duane Gran

Cableguy said:


> The easy day speed you mentioned seems... way too easy for a cat 1  I mean, a 15mph "easy day" ride would be about 80 watts (flat) to 130 watts (rolling and hilly)... .


My perspective from my prior racing days is that as you get stronger the delta (avg speed/avg power) between your hard and light days gets wider. The classic beginner mistake is to go too hard on easy days and not hard enough on hard days. It takes discipline to do both correctly.


----------



## Ken1966

I am new to biking. Started about 2 months ago riding one to two days a week on a 21 mile loop. When I first started I felt a burn and just assumed it was due to my lack of fitness ( ten year hiatus from exercise). Two months later that feeling is almost gone. I used to be a competative runner in college and beyond so I feel biking is coming easy to me. I am riding alone and continue to do the same loop. Loop has an elevation of 1078 feet total and with light wind off the ocean I manage 20 MPH and with no wind I am averaging 21+ MPH(per GPS). I feel I am still a long way from being in shape and wish I had the time to put in the miles I need to. my weight is down to 205 lbs (from 215, I'm 6'1"). Your training is advanced compared to mine. I am doing 42 mile a week and sometimes add a run of 5 miles in the mix. Are you replenishing your electrolytes? I am an ER nurse and feel your muscles are depleted of there stores.


----------



## Timbuctoo

I'm posting from Australia. I've noticed something similar to the OP. I've been riding regularly now for about 3 years and I've always been reasonably fit. I got up to a 32km/h average speed over 25km pretty quickly, probably after the first year of riding. This riding was done on pan flat terrain and normally calm conditions. Late last year I moved to Perth which has lots of wind and some hills. My ride distances haven't really changed, probably about 300km per week but now I'm riding a lot more into a stiff head wind (35-40km/h from SW). I'm also heading up into the hills and riding up to 6km with steep grades over a 50-60km ride. Now when doing the same 25km ride on a nice calm day and checking my average speeds the gains are significant. I'm now able to average around 36km/h over the same 25km distance. The tip is to change your conditions, simple as that. Wether that means doing intervals or riding into a head wind on purpose you will make gains. Also throw in a nice easy ride each week and you'll find your next time on the bike will be extra good. You can very easily over do it and that'll send you two steps back. It takes at least 3 riding seasons to harden up the legs so they can push when you need them to. I still find I struggle keeping up with the better riders, my legs will burn out before my heart rate reaches it's threshold. Riding is also very variable, you're always up and down and keeping consistancy is not easy unless cycling is your profession. That's my 2 cents worth!!


----------

