# Backward Compatibility for Campy Centaur?



## tbong27

Are campy centaur shifters for 2011/2012 compatible with the QS system from 2007? I m thinking of changing my crank, and my front derailleur (bike mechanic told me its bent and shiftings really dodgy). So i m wondering if the new front deraileurs would be compatible with the shifters from 2007 and if required the old rear derailleur would be compatible with new 2011 shifters (newer grip looks more comfortable)? The only bike store in my country is a pure shimano bike store, i dont think they would have any experience with campy products. Hope i m clear enough, my english is not the best.

Thanks!


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## bikerjulio

I believe front shifting will be fine.

Officially there was a minor change in the pull ratio of the current rear derailleur, and Campy say old RD not compatible. However I have seen posts from users who say it works fine. I guess the answer will be to try it with the existing RD and make your own decision.


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## ericjacobsen3

your year rder return spring may be weak for new shifters. your vintage rear w/ extra friction in '09 ultrashift camp levers gave many poor shifting. '11 friction is may be similar. Try and tell us if it works


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## ultraman6970

IMO you shouldn't have a single problem with that combination, as long they are 10.


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## tbong27

Okay, this is tough. I ll have to get some parts and gamble or i have to get the shifters, F & R derailleurs. and i suppose the centaur crank will work with 11 speed because its still big ring small ring.

How tough is it to set up 11 speed given I have no one whatsoever to refer to in my country regarding campy? A cheap chain tool from Park or Lezyne on ebay for 30-50+ compared to the astronomical 200+ campy original tool.


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## orange_julius

tbong27 said:


> Okay, this is tough. I ll have to get some parts and gamble or i have to get the shifters, F & R derailleurs. and i suppose the centaur crank will work with 11 speed because its still big ring small ring.
> 
> How tough is it to set up 11 speed given I have no one whatsoever to refer to in my country regarding campy? A cheap chain tool from Park or Lezyne on ebay for 30-50+ compared to the astronomical 200+ campy original tool.


Be careful: with an 11-speed chain you need to peen. Most of those $30-50 tools do not peen.

Some do:
Park Tool Co. » CT-11 : Rivet Peening Tool for Campagnolo 11-speed chain : Chain


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## ericjacobsen3

I am not clear how we suddenly got talking about 11 speed. I thought you were talking 10 for all parts and just using an old derailleur with new shifters.

I have been wondering about the supposed incompatibility of new 10 speed with the old ten speed. In particular I was wondering if there was minutely different pull of the rear derailleur between 10s and 11s or if they changed the click spacing in the shifters between old and new.

C40 has talked about his filing job to get a 10sp rder to work with 10speed but didn't need to do anything to make an 11sp rder work with 10sp shifters.

I had an Athena 11sp rder and put on my bike with '10 Veloce Ultrashift levers and it worked perfectly with no changes. I see that the pulley width between new 10sp and new 11sp is the same.

My theory is that C40 needed to file to make up for wide 10sp pulleys and cage where a bit more swing is needed to hit and push the 11sp chain.

In any case, I have concluded that there is no 10sp shift spacing change at all. The only difference between current 10s and 11s rear is the 11 silkscreening.


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## bigbill

Many people have posted on this and other forums about using the new shape Centaur levers on their existing 10 speed drivetrain. It works just fine. As far using an 11 speed FD with ten speed, it's a fraction more narrow to push a chain that is fractionally more narrow. It will work with ten.


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## C-40

*???*



tbong27 said:


> Okay, this is tough. I ll have to get some parts and gamble or i have to get the shifters, F & R derailleurs. and i suppose the centaur crank will work with 11 speed because its still big ring small ring.
> 
> How tough is it to set up 11 speed given I have no one whatsoever to refer to in my country regarding campy? A cheap chain tool from Park or Lezyne on ebay for 30-50+ compared to the astronomical 200+ campy original tool.


Centaur is not 11 speed. Your 2007 RD, should work with the new Centaur 10 shifters that are powershift, not ultrashift.

If you want 11 speed, spend the bucks to buy all Athena parts, at the minimum.


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## C-40

There has never been any change to 10 speed cog spacing or any change to the RD actuation ratio. The acutation ratio of an 11 speed RD is slightly greater than 10 speed, but the difference is small enough to not be noticeable. Slight over-shifting is rarely noticeable. The opposite setup, where a 10 speed RD is used on an 11 speed drivetrain will benefit from a modification to the RD clamp bolt, that increases the RD's actuation ratio. I reduced the diameter of the bolt to around .140 inch ( the root of the threads), just in the area where the cable contacts the bolt, to shorten the lever arm length slightly and increase the travel.


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## bikerjulio

Looks like I was wrong about the ratio thing. I was remembering looking at the tech manual, and found the table again. So there must be some difference between 2010 and 2011 RD's - no?


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## tbong27

Oh boy, havent had the time to check this thread. I just bit the bullet and bought the Record. Now I'll need some tools... Other than the 11spd chain tool, are there any other tools necessary for the new groupset? I'd take the ultra torque crank tool thats shaped like a hex key would be one such tool? Would be great to know before i make another purchase in order to get free shipping and such.. 

Btw. I havent bought the brakes. Any real difference between chorus/record brakes other than bearings and 20 grams weight loss? 

Sorry, been a real noob.


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## orange_julius

tbong27 said:


> Oh boy, havent had the time to check this thread. I just bit the bullet and bought the Record. Now I'll need some tools... Other than the 11spd chain tool, are there any other tools necessary for the new groupset? I'd take the ultra torque crank tool thats shaped like a hex key would be one such tool? Would be great to know before i make another purchase in order to get free shipping and such..
> 
> Btw. I havent bought the brakes. Any real difference between chorus/record brakes other than bearings and 20 grams weight loss?
> 
> Sorry, been a real noob.


Cable/housing cutter? 

For UT cranks you need a #10 allen key/bolt, and probably an extension for it since you need to reach into the center of the BB, and recommended is a torque wrench. Plus the tool for the BB cups as you mentioned. 

Don't forget cable caps. 

Chorus front and rear brakes are both dual pivot. Record rear is single pivot. Just get the Chorus ones. Or if you're like me, get Mavic ones. Chorus price but black and weighs the same as Record. 

I assume you already have other obvious ones like a set of metric allen keys.


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## PaulT

To the original question in this thread, no they are not backward compatible as I discovered to my cost. A very respected bike shop here in the UK fitted new shape levers to my bike to be used in combination with the previous version of the rear derailleur already fitted. I had endless problems with gears jumping. Gave up trying to fix it myself and took it to another bike shop. They couldn't fix it either. They too thought the levers and derailleur were compatible. 

I got talking to a rep from Campag at a bike show in London last year and he said the return spring in the new derailleur is different to the old (and when you compare them you can see they are) so the old spring is not strong enough. He said they had issued an advice note to UK bike dealers but on the strength of my experience with two very good bike shops he said the message clearly hadn't got through. 

I eventually bought the new style derailleur to match the levers and I now have perfect shifting. Should have stuck with the old levers as the whole episode cost me new levers and new derailleur! :mad2:


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## C-40

*only a few...*

Only a few models and years of Campy 10 RDs don't work with the new shifters - specifically 2007-2008 Centaur and below that were used with escape shifters. The higher level RDs all work fine.


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## Drew Eckhardt

C-40 said:


> Only a few models and years of Campy 10 RDs don't work with the new shifters - specifically 2007-2008 Centaur and below that were used with escape shifters. The higher level RDs all work fine.


11 out of 12 years (2000 - 2010) of Campagnolo 10 speed rear derailleurs share the same ratio in at least 5 out of 5 levels (Mirage through Record plus oddities like the Comp/Race triples). 1 of 11 years (2011) in two levels (Veloce and Centaur) match the new shifters. 

The whole Escape debacle involves shifters pulling the same amount of cable as the rest of the line through Record but without the full functionality or small parts availability.

Cable pull is entirely a function of vintage and cog count. 10 speed from 2000 through 2010 are all the same whether Record Titanium with carbon fiber outer knuckle + outer cage and hollow pulley bolts or Mirage with plebian alloy and solid steel hardware. 11 speed and 2011 and newer 10 speed are something different. It's a lot like the move to 10 speeds in 2000, with the first overlapping 9 speed derailleurs having the old geometry + B-tension screw and later units 10 speed cable pull + lower pivot tension adjustment; only this time over-sized vs. conditional jockey wheels is the distinguishing feature.

Compatibility between old and new is officially a no-go according to Campagnolo and with varied user reports potentially dependent on user tolerance, derailleur hanger geometry, chain stay length, and chain line.

Stupid for end users (Except for a few Dura Ace parts, Shimano Derailleurs from 6 through 10 speeds share the same cable pull with good performance) but true (probably improves component sales - now that I've worn out my 9 speed original flavor rear derailleur I need a new rear derailleur (which will have the 10 speed ratio), new 10 speed shifters, new handle bars to match the elevated mounting location, new stem (can't get modern bar shapes with a 26.4mm Cinelli clamp) to match the new handle bars, and new fork (because the new stem is threadless not 1" threaded and a threaded to threadless adapter is too goofy to go with a Litespeed frame and Campagnolo gruppo).


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## T0mi

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Stupid for end users (Except for a few Dura Ace parts, Shimano Derailleurs from 6 through 10 speeds share the same cable pull with good performance) but true (probably improves component sales - now that I've worn out my 9 speed original flavor rear derailleur I need a new rear derailleur (which will have the 10 speed ratio), new 10 speed shifters, new handle bars to match the elevated mounting location, new stem (can't get modern bar shapes with a 26.4mm Cinelli clamp) to match the new handle bars, and new fork (because the new stem is threadless not 1" threaded and a threaded to threadless adapter is too goofy to go with a Litespeed frame and Campagnolo gruppo).


Complete non-sense

You can perfectly use current campagnolo shifters with an old bar. You're just looking for excuses for a new bike.


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## Drew Eckhardt

T0mi said:


> Complete non-sense
> 
> You can perfectly use current campagnolo shifters with an old bar. You're just looking for excuses for a new bike.


Eyeballing things it looks like the mounting hardware on second and third generation ergo levers is angled farther from parallel to the flat surface of the hood than on first generation levers so they need to mount higher on the bar (note the attached photo with v3 lever in front of v1; sorry that I'm not good enough at yoga to get the lever in exactly the right position while photographing). If nothing else the interface seems more curved.

For a given bar drop that would yield hoods that are too high or if the stem is lowered drops which are too low and call for a shallower bar to retain the same fit.


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## T0mi

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Eyeballing things it looks like the mounting hardware on second and third generation ergo levers is angled farther from parallel to the flat surface of the hood than on first generation levers so they need to mount higher on the bar (note the attached photo with v3 lever in front of v1; sorry that I'm not good enough at yoga to get the lever in exactly the right position while photographing). If nothing else the interface seems more curved.
> 
> For a given bar drop that would yield hoods that are too high or if the stem is lowered drops which are too low and call for a shallower bar to retain the same fit.


I need to take pictures of my bikes. On my 3 bikes I have 3 different bars with the new lever shape :
-3t Competizione from early 90's on my commuter
-deda newton on my road bike
-3t rotundo pro on my cross bike

I noticed a difference where you mount the lever, but I didn't felt I needed to change the bar to get a normal "race" position on my commuter. The levers are quite long, so even with the hoods pointing a little upward, you should still be able to actuate the levers correctly when in the drops. And they are much more comfortable on the hoods than those first gen levers (which I still use on old race bike when I visit my parents).

By the way, there are 1 1/8 quill adapters for traditionnal forks so even if you changed bar and stem you wouldn't need to change the fork and/or frame.


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## Golfguy

@bikerjulio: So the 2010 Ultrashift Centaur Egro levers are not compatible with the 2011 Centaur rear derailleur? I noticed that combination is not as positive as the 2008 Centaur levers/2008 Veloce RD, but I thought I was just not used to the difference in shifting travel.


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## cs1

C-40 said:


> Only a few models and years of Campy 10 RDs don't work with the new shifters - specifically 2007-2008 Centaur and below that were used with escape shifters. The higher level RDs all work fine.


How can you tell if your derailleur is an 07 - 08? Is there a date code or some kind of marking? If not, can the spring be changed to give it more tension?


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## bikerjulio

Golfguy said:


> @bikerjulio: So the 2010 Ultrashift Centaur Egro levers are not compatible with the 2011 Centaur rear derailleur? I noticed that combination is not as positive as the 2008 Centaur levers/2008 Veloce RD, but I thought I was just not used to the difference in shifting travel.


I'm not talking from direct experience - just quoting Campy. I believe the spring tension in the RD went up for 2011 per Paul above. I can only assume that the change to powershift requires it. How well they work with a 2010 shifter - I don't know. If it increases effort & feel, it might be an improvement


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