# I'm having some issues with my BB30



## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

This is in regards to my indoor trainer bike which is set up on the Hammer -- my old Cannondale CAAD9.

I've had mystery noise issues with it many times over the years, and most times the problem was solved by installing new BB30 bearings. Until recently this has always been something that handed off to the LBS for them to do. This time I decided to tackle the job myself. How hard could it be, right?

I ordered the tools and the new bearings (FSA). I got myself the Wheels Manufacturing economy press, the Park Tool BBT-30 Bottom Bracket remover tool, and a Park Tool torque wrench to make sure everything is tightened to spec. 

So here is what I did:

I pulled the FSA Gossamer cranks, which are original to the bike with 45k miles on them (I have new FSA SLK crank coming any day now). Then I used the Park Tool and a rubber mallet to drive out the old bearings (which wasn't easy). I took a rag and cleaned the crank spindle and the inside of the bottom bracket area real good. Next I took the bearings, coated them in grease, put a thin layer inside the frame as well, then used the Wheels Manufacturing tool and pressed in each bearing individually until snug. I slipped the spacer on the crank spindle, then the bearing shield, applied grease to that, and slid the crank on. On the other side, I slid the bearing shield on protruding crank spindle (after greasing both it and the bearing on this non-drive side), then the wave spring washer, and finally installed the crank arm and used the Park Tool torque wrench to tighten to 40nm.

When I hop on bike and get a training session it, it is fine on the first day. It's the second day when a clunking starts up. I pull the crank, do a quick check, noticing a faint scent like a burnt out motor, apply more grease, and reinstall. Then I'm good to go. Until the next day's workout -- Clunk! Clunk! Clunk!

I don't know what's going on. 

Am I applying too much grease, perhaps?

Or could it simply be that the cranks need to be replaced?

What are your thoughts?


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

I"m wondering if the bearings are moving in the frame. Instead of grease, you might use Loctite 609, which is designed for pressed in bearings.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

There was a poster on here within the last year who had done detailed measurements of various BB30 frames and several bearings.

Perhaps someone will remember the name.

Anyway, the takeaway was that there was significant variance in the sizes of the BB shells and bearings. That could well be the cause of a proportion of BB30 owners having problems.

I thought FSA scored pretty low. On sizing.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> There was a poster on here within the last year who had done detailed measurements of various BB30 frames and several bearings.
> 
> Perhaps someone will remember the name.
> 
> ...


This is where comparing the same cranks in PF30 vs BB30 gets interesting. I saw a fair number of FSA 30mm cranks when working for a Cervelo dealer, but they weren't much of a problem. But all the bearings where lodged in plastic PF30 cups.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> There was a poster on here within the last year who had done detailed measurements of various BB30 frames and several bearings.
> 
> Perhaps someone will remember the name.
> 
> ...


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Yep, this was it.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Just makes more of a case for Loctite 609.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

But I couldn't even imagine the difficulty in removal after using Loctite. I know there are certain compounds of it that won't weld the bearings in there, but they're hard enough to hammer out coated in grease.

I can tell you right now, I'll never buy another Cannondale. And what I find amusing is that Cannondale was actually the ones that came up with the press fit bearings, the BB30, weren't they? And they still couldn't get it right.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Wood Devil said:


> But I couldn't even imagine the difficulty in removal after using Loctite. I know there are certain compounds of it that won't weld the bearings in there, but they're hard enough to hammer out coated in grease.
> 
> I can tell you right now, I'll never buy another Cannondale. And what I find amusing is that *Cannondale was actually the ones that came up with the press fit bearings, the BB30, weren't they? And they still couldn't get it right.*


Does make you wonder, doesn't it? I guess it's not so hard to come up w/ a concept that should work but much harder to manufacture thousands of them half way around the world. 

I would have assembled it exactly the way you did. I'm really surprised it only makes it one day before getting noisy again, but if you're bearings and frame are out of spec far enough...


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Wood Devil said:


> I can tell you right now, I'll never buy another Cannondale. And what I find amusing is that Cannondale was actually the ones that came up with the press fit bearings, the BB30, weren't they? And they still couldn't get it right.


See that video above? Watch it, pay attention to the presenter.

Cannondale has approached him personally to manufacture bottom brackets for them so they can further reduce their manufacturing tolerances.

Did you catch that? The video presenter is an engineer that manufactures his own bottom brackets one at a time for ultimate precision (accounting for bit wear, which cnc programs do not do), and they're so good that Cannondale wants them to be OEM spec.

He turned them down. Not because he can't make the part, but because he makes the part because the industry sucks and he's not going to contribute to making it worse.

So...

Go to the gentleman's website and buy yourself a Hambini bottom bracket. You'll be amazed at the quality, precision and function for the very reasonable price. Chances are you will never have to change your bearings again after installing it, ever. You're welcome.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

cxwrench said:


> Does make you wonder, doesn't it? I guess it's not so hard to come up w/ a concept that should work but much harder to manufacture thousands of them half way around the world.
> 
> I would have assembled it exactly the way you did. I'm really surprised it only makes it one day before getting noisy again, but if you're bearings and frame are out of spec far enough...


Couldn't someone come up with a BB that threads in? That might just work


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Wood Devil said:


> But I couldn't even imagine the difficulty in removal after using Loctite. I know there are certain compounds of it that won't weld the bearings in there, but they're hard enough to hammer out coated in grease.
> 
> I can tell you right now, I'll never buy another Cannondale. And what I find amusing is that Cannondale was actually the ones that came up with the press fit bearings, the BB30, weren't they? And they still couldn't get it right.


609 is not regular loctite. It is designed to use up space, not act as glue. I have rebuilt many things that were assembled with 609.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

DaveG said:


> Couldn't someone come up with a BB that threads in? That might just work


:idea: You're going to revolutionize the industry if you keep thinking like that! :thumbsup:


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Wood Devil said:


> But I couldn't even imagine the difficulty in removal after using Loctite. I know there are certain compounds of it that won't weld the bearings in there, but they're hard enough to hammer out coated in grease.
> 
> I can tell you right now, I'll never buy another Cannondale. And what I find amusing is that Cannondale was actually the ones that came up with the press fit bearings, the BB30, weren't they? And they still couldn't get it right.


Re 609: That is serious stuff. I haven't used it on bikes. It requires heat to break it. I share your concern about future removal from a bicycle.

Re press fit: My 1989 gary fisher hoo koo e koo had pressed in bb bearings. My 1996 klein also had them. I believe Cannondale did "invent" the bb30 standard.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Yup, press fit bearings on BBs are not new. What is new about BB30 is that the bearings are large enough to make an aluminum spindle strong enough.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

609 is definitely 'un-doable'.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Loctite 641 is a medium strength retaining compound specifically used for bearings to help fill the void of any inconsistencies between the two surfaces and help hold the bearings in place.

No noise during yesterday's ride. I pulled the cranks before the workout and wiped off excess grease, then threw the cranks back on. If the clunking returns, I might have to give the Loctite a try. The only other option is a new bike.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Wood Devil said:


> Loctite 641 is a medium strength retaining compound specifically used for bearings to help fill the void of any inconsistencies between the two surfaces and help hold the bearings in place.
> 
> No noise during yesterday's ride. I pulled the cranks before the workout and wiped off excess grease, then threw the cranks back on. If the clunking returns, I might have to give the Loctite a try. *The only other option is a new bike.*


I don't know much about this topic but I don't think that's right. This might be an option: https://praxiscycles.com/conversion-bb/


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I don't know much about this topic but I don't think that's right. This might be an option: https://praxiscycles.com/conversion-bb/


Yes, that's the path many people take who have BB30 problems. The other path on newer bikes - a new frame under warranty, IF the BB30 BB sleeve is out of spec. (sometimes they are)
The Praxis BB30 kit uses outboard bearings and would require a new crankset, though, usually people go with 24mm Shimano cranks. But pretty sure FSA also has a 24mm version that works.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

DaveG said:


> Couldn't someone come up with a BB that threads in? That might just work


Naw, that could never work. Could it?


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

I think the difficulty you had removing the bearings comes from using a rubber mallet to knock them out. You need a sharp impact to break them free, not a soft blow. That doesn't mean a ham fisted whack, just a nice sharp impact with a normal metal hammer. As said above, Loctite 609 is a cylindrical retaining compound, basically a gap filler that ensures the bearing is fully supported. It's strength is in compression, this keeps the bearings from rocking in the frame. It's weak in shear, this is why it's easy to remove the bearing. Be sure to clean the crap out of all surfaces first and use their primer.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Wood Devil said:


> The only other option is a new bike.


Apparently you don't know how to read.

I suggest you scroll up and read my last post.

Or not, you can continue to deal with this as you are.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Wood Devil said:


> If the clunking returns, I might have to give the Loctite a try. The only other option is a new bike.


Learned some new things here, so thanks to all, especially for the Hambini link. 
As others mentioned, new bearings would be the best place to start - and NOT from FSA. NTN low friction bearings would be the first thing I would buy next, along with loctite 609. Watch the video above.
https://www.hambini.com/bearings.html?cat=9

If that didn't work, then a new BB and crank to match. Even Hambini BB needs a new crank from present FSA BB30. 
Cheaper than a new bike.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I don't know much about this topic but I don't think that's right. This might be an option: https://praxiscycles.com/conversion-bb/


I have a Praxis bottom bracket in my Spectrum. It’s a well-engineered, beautifully made piece of equipment.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Wood Devil said:


> Loctite 641 is a medium strength retaining compound specifically used for bearings to help fill the void of any inconsistencies between the two surfaces and help hold the bearings in place.
> 
> No noise during yesterday's ride. I pulled the cranks before the workout and wiped off excess grease, then threw the cranks back on. If the clunking returns, I might have to give the Loctite a try. The only other option is a new bike.


You have a dimension problem. 609 is a gap filling retaining compound, 641 is not.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Apparently you don't know how to read.
> 
> I suggest you scroll up and read my last post.
> 
> Or not, you can continue to deal with this as you are.


Cripes! Chill the hell out, dude. No need to start throwing punches here.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Kontact said:


> You have a dimension problem. 609 is a gap filling retaining compound, 641 is not.


FF to 5:02 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wBSrv23njU&list=PLHVpx3gPK-jkW6sUjwF4Tzr4nAc8-3Qld&index=14


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Wood Devil said:


> FF to 5:02 ...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wBSrv23njU&list=PLHVpx3gPK-jkW6sUjwF4Tzr4nAc8-3Qld&index=14


Oh, "Double Arrow Metabolism" said so! I had no idea you had gone to such a well known expert in bicycle engineering.

Either will work, 609 is more likely to work with an oversized shell. 609 is what is already used in bike shops, which is why both CX and I are familiar with it. I don't know where Mr. Metabolism got his information. Both are medium strength and you can punch an old bearing back out.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Kontact said:


> Oh, "Double Arrow Metabolism" said so! I had no idea you had gone to such a well known expert in bicycle engineering.
> 
> Either will work, 609 is more likely to work with an oversized shell. 609 is what is already used in bike shops, which is why both CX and I are familiar with it. I don't know where Mr. Metabolism got his information. Both are medium strength and you can punch an old bearing back out.


Yeah, I don't understand why Loctite has so many different formulas/numbers. Gets confusing when many of them are used for the same exact purpose.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Help a non-engineer out... If the frame/BB shell is constructed with poor tolerances - either parallel or angular misalignment - how would, even the best bottom bracket, like Hambini's, make up for that?


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Wood Devil said:


> Yeah, I don't understand why Loctite has so many different formulas/numbers. Gets confusing when many of them are used for the same exact purpose.


They aren't the same purpose. 609 is gap filling, 641 is not. If you were building a nuclear power plant you'd probably find those differences important, but you are working on a bicycle.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

OldZaskar said:


> Help a non-engineer out... If the frame/BB shell is constructed with poor tolerances - either parallel or angular misalignment - how would, even the best bottom bracket, like Hambini's, make up for that?


It isn't misaligned, it is just big or sloppy. Putting the bearings in a shell makes the potential small movement unimportant.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Kontact said:


> It isn't misaligned, it is just big or sloppy. Putting the bearings in a shell makes the potential small movement unimportant.


So if the bearings are happy, there will likely be no creak? If the bottom bracket is not perfectly fitted into the frame, that's less of an issue?


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

OldZaskar said:


> Help a non-engineer out... If the frame/BB shell is constructed with poor tolerances - either parallel or angular misalignment - how would, even the best bottom bracket, like Hambini's, make up for that?


Look at his design video, bottom one on this page 
https://www.hambini.com/hambini-bottom-bracket.html

The finite element analysis shows all the pedaling load is concentrated in a very small area under the bearing (red in the video). In a loose BB30 setup, the high stress under the individual bearings allows them to move around under load. 
In his setup, he maintains very strict tolerance control of the bearing outer diameter, and where the bearing fits. So the only thing that could possibly move is the entire Hambini BB assembly. In other words, his BB distributes the load over a much larger surface area - the entire width of the bottom bracket, an area so big that possibility of movement is eliminated. 
For angular and parallel offset - my take is as long as you can get the Hambini BB "in", the new BB/bearing assembly will guarantee no problems with those offsets. Also note the absolute amounts he is measuring for both, even worse case, are very small numbers.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Frankly, I don't see the big issue. The squeak comes from tiny amounts of movement, not from the parts being wildly out of round or parallel. Until folks have actually tried the loctite they shouldn't be so quick to redesign the bike. 

With all respect to the gentleman selling $150 BBs, maybe talking about just how awful BB30 and PF30 are is not such a terrible way to sell stuff.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Kontact said:


> They aren't the same purpose. 609 is gap filling, 641 is not. If you were building a nuclear power plant you'd probably find those differences important, but you are working on a bicycle.


Both are similar and recommended for cylindrical gap filling - read the tech specs on the Henkel site. 
The 609 is green, fills a .006" max. gap and has shear strength of 2300 psi. 
The 641 is yellow, fills a .008" max gap and has shear strength of 1700 psi. 

The 641 will be easier to disassemble, 609 will be slightly harder, but still recommended for "parts that need dismantling". 609 will setup faster, the 641 has a fixture time of 20 min., 609 has a fixture time 10 min. 
Loctite® 609™ Retaining Compound General Purpose - Henkel

LOCTITE® 641™ Retaining Compound Controlled Strength - Henkel


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Z'mer said:


> Both are similar and recommended for cylindrical gap filling - read the tech specs on the Henkel site.
> The 609 is green, fills a .006" max. gap and has shear strength of 2300 psi.
> The 641 is yellow, fills a .008" max gap and has shear strength of 1700 psi.
> 
> ...


Your information is different from what I could find on the Loctite website. But if 641 has lower shear and greater gap fill it would be a bit better choice. Thanks for the correction.

Either will work, though. If you have 609, I'd just use it.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Kontact said:


> Your information is different from what I could find on the Loctite website. But if 641 has lower shear and greater gap fill it would be a bit better choice. Thanks for the correction.
> 
> Either will work, though. If you have 609, I'd just use it.


Not so much a correction, just showing data versus conjecture. Loctite 641 will fill a slightly bigger gap. It also will be thicker and less runny than 609 (a higher viscosity number = thicker) 

For "problem" creaking bottom brackets, I would agree to use 641, but also use quality, tight tolerance bearings like NTN from a reliable source (you know, like *not* the cheapest priced bearings on Ebay or ones reported to be questionable, like FSA).


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Z'mer said:


> Not so much a correction, just showing data versus conjecture. Since .006" is a larger number than .008", Loctite 609 will fill a slightly bigger gap.


May want to check your math there.

0.008" > 0.006"


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> May want to check your math there.
> 
> 0.008" > 0.006"


Yes, so it does. A correction to the correction to the correction.

I went back and edited my post last post above to avoid confusion for anyone reading it later.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Also check out the amazon reviews for loctite 641, 4.9 out of 5 stars - Of 14 reviews, 5 people used it to eliminate creaking in a press fit bottom bracket. One guy says FSA recommended it. 

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-442-...ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&pageNumber=1


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

If you pull the white papers for both you'll find that 609 has a lower viscosity and a min of 50% more shear capacity which is good for our use. 641 is certified by the CFIA (Canadian Food Inspection Agency), aka safe for food assemblies and not important for us, but it is a true gap filler.
According to Henkels guide for the end user, 609 is recommended for press fit assemblies where 641 is not, only slip fits. Likely due to it's higher viscosity for filling larger gaps.

I would (and do) recommend sticking to 609 as does Cannondale, here is there service bulletin for installation, and don't forget the primer - http://cf-prd.cannondale.com/~/medi...Instructions_web.ashx?vs=1&d=20151202T193335Z

Oh, and please for the love of god don't press your bearings in by the inner race like the dude in the video. That alone means I wouldn't listen to a thing he has to say.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

rcb78 said:


> If you pull the white papers for both you'll find that 609 has a lower viscosity and a min of 50% more shear capacity which is good for our use.
> According to Henkels guide for the end user, 609 is recommended for press fit assemblies where 641 is not, only slip fits. Likely due to it's higher viscosity for filling larger gaps.
> 
> I would (and do) recommend sticking to 609 as does Cannondale, here is there service bulletin for installation, and don't forget the primer - http://cf-prd.cannondale.com/~/medi...Instructions_web.ashx?vs=1&d=20151202T193335Z


If 641 is only recommended for *slip fits*, read what your cannondale instructions above say
"Pressfit BB30 Bonding
The process described in this Tech Note can be used to install BB cups into Cannondale Pressfit 30 frames where irregular BB cup parts or frame shell surfaces are resulting in a partial press or *slip fit* (i.e., fitting without using a headset press)."

One more point - In this context, the shear strength is listed by Henkel to give an indication of how easy or difficult the parts will be to take apart. Higher shear strength = harder to remove. In normal pedaling use, the load will be perpendicular to the gap (compression), not parallel (shear)


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Z'mer said:


> If 641 is only recommended for *slip fits*, read what your cannondale instructions above say
> "Pressfit BB30 Bonding
> The process described in this Tech Note can be used to install BB cups into Cannondale Pressfit 30 frames where irregular BB cup parts or frame shell surfaces are resulting in a partial press or *slip fit* (i.e., fitting without using a headset press)."
> 
> One more point - In this context, the shear strength is listed by Henkel to give an indication of how easy or difficult the parts will be to take apart. Higher shear strength = harder to remove. In normal pedaling use, the load will be perpendicular to the gap (compression), not parallel (shear)


Is that a tech note for BB30 or Pressfit 30 (PF30)? Not the same thing.


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