# Roubaix. Am I missing something here?



## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

I am going to buy a new Roubaix, just haven't decided on the model yet. I have ridden the Fact8 (Sport) and Fact 10 (Expert) and can tell no ride quality difference other than very slightly taller stack (5mm, but I did notice) and I could tell when the CG seatpost kicked in. I certainly noticed the difference in components, Ultegra vs not Ultegra. I have my own custom wheel set and a saddle I like.

A quick comparison shows the components:

Specialized Bicycle Components

Not much difference past the drivetrain, keeping in mind that I am using my custom wheel set.

So, I am thinking I could get the Sora at about $1600 at my LBS, and buy a complete Ult 6800 11sp group from planet cyclery at $750 and be out about $2400 plus tax and basically have an Expert level bike that is FACT 8. I will ebay the stock wheels and components, probably wont get much but don't need them.

Shimano Ultegra 6800 Group Set - Shimano - Group Sets

Not a great mechy by any stretch but could probably get it done as I have built-up a couple of bikes.

Even adding a CG seat post puts me at $1000 less than the stock Expert, which still has FSA cranks.

Thoughts?


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Soonerinfrisco said:


> I am going to buy a new Roubaix, just haven't decided on the model yet. I have ridden the Fact8 (Sport) and Fact 10 (Expert) and can tell no ride quality difference other than very slightly taller stack (5mm, but I did notice) and I could tell when the CG seatpost kicked in. I certainly noticed the difference in components, Ultegra vs not Ultegra. I have my own custom wheel set and a saddle I like.
> 
> A quick comparison shows the components:
> 
> ...


I feel the same way and I am about to pull the trigger on the same bike (though I am comparing a Roubaix, Allez, and a Tarmac), but I think your analysis is pretty darn solid. The entry level Roubaix is a great value if you are willing to upgrade components on your own. Once you control for components and wheels, there simply isn't much of a performance or weight difference between the frames. I feel the same about the lower level Tarmacs as well.


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

Rashadabd said:


> I feel the same way and I am about to pull the trigger on the same bike (though I am comparing a Roubaix, Allez, and a Tarmac), but I think your analysis is pretty darn solid. The entry level Roubaix is a great value if you are willing to upgrade components on your own. Once you control for components and wheels, there simply isn't much of a performance or weight difference between the frames. I feel the same about the lower level Tarmacs as well.


Lot of value in the Allez if it suits you. I have an 06 Tarmac and they are just wonderful bikes but I can no longer be comfortable after 20-25 miles. That is the only reason I am going to the Roubaix.

Those three are all great bikes but very different. Good luck man.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

Soonerinfrisco said:


> So, I am thinking I could get the Sora at about $1600 at my LBS, and buy a complete Ult 6800 11sp group from planet cyclery at $750 and be out about $2400 plus tax and basically have an Expert level bike that is FACT 8. I will ebay the stock wheels and components, probably wont get much but don't need them.


That's probably what I would do if I didn't get my SL4 Expert frame free through warranty. Just make sure you factor in labor costs to install the 6800 group set. Make sure they install the 6800 cables since they make a big difference in shift quality. You should check Ribble and Pro Bike Kit and see if they can beat that 6800 price with discount codes. Over the holidays Pro Bike Kit had the 6800 group set for $590 delivered (not a typo!) Here's a video of someone who did exactly what you're thinking of doing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFXbi3dJlKk


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Hmmm... I never looked at it that way, but it makes sense. 

Also check Merlincycles.com for groupset prices... very good and free shipping.


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

Thanks guys, both Ribble and Merlincycles have the group for less than planetcyclery, right at $700!


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## dougrocky123 (Apr 12, 2006)

I kind of did what you plan to do except I bought the Expert. Then I took off the 11 speed stuff and installed it on my 10 speed Trek Madone. Then I bought a Ultegra Di2 grouppo and a set of 11 speed wheels and installed it on the Expert. So I now have two 11 speed bikes. Don't know if I saved a cent doing this because I was afraid to add it all up!


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

LOL doug! No kidding. Where did you buy your group from? That's a hell of a stable you got going there. You must be single.


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## dougrocky123 (Apr 12, 2006)

Is it that obvious that I'm single? 6 road bikes and 3 mountain bikes. Yeah I guess it is! I got my Di2 group from Starbike in Germany. At the time they were the only one with the longer cage RD so now I have two 11 speed bikes set up with 11-32 cassettes.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Soonerinfrisco said:


> Lot of value in the Allez if it suits you. I have an 06 Tarmac and they are just wonderful bikes but I can no longer be comfortable after 20-25 miles. That is the only reason I am going to the Roubaix.
> 
> Those three are all great bikes but very different. Good luck man.


Thanks for the insight man. They are different, but, unfortunately for me, I like them all for different reasons. The Roubaix makes a lot of sense long-term, so long as I can set it up a bit more aggressively than I had it set-up on my test ride. It felt plenty stiff and fast and I truly don't think the weight will be much of an issue once I swapped out some of the components and wheels over time. The Tarmac SL4 was just flat out fun. The 9r carbon felt a lot like the 10r in terms of weight and stiffness. It was a tad "harsher" in that you could definitely feel road vibration in the rear end, but I would just add a Pave seatpost and better wheels and call it a day. I do need a few spacers or a cone to be in a comfortable position on the Tarmac for the long haul though and I am not a huge fan of the "twitchy" handling some complain about in a size 52cm Tarmac, but I am confident I can adapt (having also ridden a Felt F85 and Cervelo R3 for an extended period of time). I love that the Allez Smartweld is so affordable, alloy, and yet has a great ride quality that people rave about. It just seems like it could be a great investment and free me up to put more money into wheels and components. The downside there is weight and I hear a few complaints about stiffness in the BB area. Right now, I am in a holding pattern while I wait to see what the prices and paint schemes are for the 2015 line-up. We'll see...


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Rashadabd said:


> Thanks for the insight man. They are different, but, unfortunately for me, I like them all for different reasons. The Roubaix makes a lot of sense long-term, so long as I can set it up a bit more aggressively than I had it set-up on my test ride. It felt plenty stiff and fast and I truly don't think the weight will be much of an issue once I swapped out some of the components and wheels over time. The Tarmac SL4 was just flat out fun. The 9r carbon felt a lot like the 10r in terms of weight and stiffness. It was a tad "harsher" in that you could definitely feel road vibration in the rear end, but I would just add a Pave seatpost and better wheels and call it a day. I do need a few spacers or a cone to be in a comfortable position on the Tarmac for the long haul though and I am not a huge fan of the "twitchy" handling some complain about in a size 52cm Tarmac, but I am confident I can adapt (having also ridden a Felt F85 and Cervelo R3 for an extended period of time). I love that the Allez Smartweld is so affordable, alloy, and yet has a great ride quality that people rave about. It just seems like it could be a great investment and free me up to put more money into wheels and components. The downside there is weight and I hear a few complaints about stiffness in the BB area. Right now, I am in a holding pattern while I wait to see what the prices and paint schemes are for the 2015 line-up. We'll see...


I own both.

Roubaix for comfort. Tarmac for climbs. 

Steel for fun.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

IMHO, FACT 8R and other low level carbon is just for people who want to say they have a carbon bike. Its crap. Its not terribly light. Its not terribly stiff. But hey...is "carbon."

Price being about equal, Id take the E5 Aluminum bike (the better aluminum) and 105 parts over 8R carbon and sora level bits every day of the week.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

RkFast said:


> IMHO, FACT 8R and other low level carbon is just for people who want to say they have a carbon bike. Its crap.
> 
> Id take the E5 Aluminum bike (the better aluminum) and 105 over 8R carbon and sora level stuff every day of the week.


Completely disagree. I would take a 8R carbon frameset over any Aluminum bike E5, CAAD 10...any of them any day of the week.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

roadworthy said:


> Completely disagree. I would take a 8R carbon frameset over any Aluminum bike E5, CAAD 10...any of them any day of the week.


I am pretty much with Roadworthy on this one. It was only a few years ago that Fact 8r was Specialized mid-level to high-level frameset man. I have had multiple people admit to me, after I pushed some, that the only significant difference is a bit of weight. It's as stiff, maybe even more durable in crash because you are using more of it, and dampens road vibration just as good. I have consistently been told, both in here and at shops, that most people probably couldn't even tell if you set up two bikes with identical components and wheels and one was 8r and the other 10r. Without a scale, they wouldn't even know. My own test ride supported that premise for me. To each his own though, so if you want to pay more for a higher grade of carbon, then do so, but I highly doubt you can produce much evidence to support your conclusion that 8r is "crap"….

There are completely legitimate reasons why someone might choose an Allez Smartweld over a Roubiax Sora or Comp (price/budget, better spec, and/or preference for alloy, etc.), but IMO fact 8r carbon being "crap" just isn't one of them.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> I am pretty much with Roadworthy on this one. It was only a few years ago that Fact 8r was Specialized mid-level to high-level frameset man. I have had multiple people admit to me, after I pushed some, that the only significant difference is a bit of weight. It's as stiff, maybe even more durable in crash because you are using more of it, and dampens road vibration just as good. I have consistently been told, both in here and at shops, that most people probably couldn't even tell if you set up two bikes with identical components and wheels and one was 8r and the other 10r. Without a scale, they wouldn't even know. My own test ride supported that premise for me. To each his own though, so if you want to pay more for a higher grade of carbon, then do so, but I highly doubt you can produce much evidence to support your conclusion that 8r is "crap"….
> 
> There are completely legitimate reasons why someone might choose an Allez Smartweld over a Roubiax Sora or Comp (price/budget, better spec, and/or preference for alloy, etc.), but IMO fact 8r carbon being "crap" just isn't one of them.


I believe above is spot on.
Where I come down on the whole issue of what kind of Roubaix to buy and there are compelling reasons in all directions...Spesh marketing at its finest ...I would still purchase the Roubaix SL4 Pro 10r frameset and build it piece by piece...like I did with my Roubaix SL3 Pro with 10r carbon back in 2012 that I built initially with Campy and now have just installed DA 9000. Yes buying the 8r Sora 9s base bike with 8r is a good strategy and yes, the Pro frameset now is on the pricey side...but at the end of the day, I want to install the parts I like from carbon handlebar to particular width seat...to the crank I like...I would change everything anyway and would save me from ebaying the Sora stuff and low end wheelset and I do run bike parts through ebay from time to time. So I just suck it up...pay a bit more for just the higher end frameset with paint job I like better...a little better carbon...agree it doesn't matter much if at all and also the resale of the bike will be more in 3-4 years when I am ready for the next great thing. 
My thoughts....


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Agreed. Nothing wrong with that route either. I took a look at the red on red Pro level frameset thinking the same thing as well, but I went that route previously and ran out of funds when I went from a 9-5 to running my own business and got rid of the frame. I don't want to go that route again. If I decide to spend in the $3000 range, which I doubt I will this time around, I probably would just go with the Expert level 2015 Tarmac to be honest. As of right now, it's looking like the Roubaix with Sora, but I won't make up my mind until I see what the prices and colors are for 2015.


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## nismo73 (Jul 29, 2009)

I have a 2010 Roubaix Comp 7r, and always think to myself about buying a new bike while on a ride, but I just don't know what a 2014 10r frame would really do for me - maybe help out on climbs with power transfer, but normally I'm riding at a good pace and it's smooth.

I've put SRAM Force of it and changed out the wheels and it's a great bike. So if I was to get a new bike, it would have to be at least $3000 to be an "upgrade". I don't know how I can justify it to myself - well, at least until the 2015 bikes come out. 

Also not a fan of Spesh not using the Ultegra crank on the Expert.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

nismo73 said:


> I have a 2010 Roubaix Comp 7r, and always think to myself about buying a new bike while on a ride, but I just don't know what a 2014 10r frame would really do for me - maybe help out on climbs with power transfer, but normally I'm riding at a good pace and it's smooth.
> 
> I've put SRAM Force of it and changed out the wheels and it's a great bike. So if I was to get a new bike, it would have to be at least $3000 to be an "upgrade". I don't know how I can justify it to myself - well, at least until the 2015 bikes come out.
> 
> Also not a fan of Spesh not using the Ultegra crank on the Expert.


Not using the Ultegra crank on the Expert aside from cost avoidance which btw is arguable...even in a group buy...is because the Expert frame is BB30. An Ultegra crank has to run spacers to 'adapt' to a BB frame. Each year, Specialized moves away from English theaded frames across their model range. In years past the Expert had a threaded BB including my '12 Roubaix Pro. Not any more. 
FSA takes a lot of criticism on the internet for their cranks and some have it in their heads that the drapes have to match the curtains and I disagree on both accounts. A FSA crank may not be my first choice but I would be perfectly fine with one. The new 4 arm FSA K-force crank is probably world class...a knock off of DA and now Campy is following with a 4 arm in 2015 and appears to be the direction the industry is moving.


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

Good info roadworthy. Man I had tons of issues (well lots of folks did) on my 06 Tarmac with the FSA cranks just chewing up BBs. Of course, they have had a lot of time to address the issues since then so maybe its just fine now. I really love Shimano cranks. What is your thought on adding the spacer to the frame to get say an Ultegra crank? Still a solid junction? Any issues you have heard with it? 

The base Roubaix model has a Sora crank so I assume it must come with the spacers.

Honestly, I am trying to decide if I love Specialized or hate their ass! Incredible frame that gets a way overpriced group set if its higher end or gives a very mediocre group at each price point vs most of the competitors.

thanks again


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Soonerinfrisco said:


> Good info roadworthy. Man I had tons of issues (well lots of folks did) on my 06 Tarmac with the FSA cranks just chewing up BBs. Of course, they have had a lot of time to address the issues since then so maybe its just fine now. I really love Shimano cranks. What is your thought on adding the spacer to the frame to get say an Ultegra crank? Still a solid junction? Any issues you have heard with it?
> 
> The base Roubaix model has a Sora crank so I assume it must come with the spacers.
> 
> ...


No worries for adapting Ultegra cranks to BB30 and done all the time. You have several options...from Wheel manufacturing spacers to a Praxis BB which makes Ultegra plug and play.

You may want to look into what BB comes on the base Roubaix if the base is still SL4. Specialized 'may' have gone BB30 across the board on SL4 except for the Sworks which is a narrow PF30. But also quite possible the Sora Roubaix has a threaded BB. If this isn't clear on Spesh's website, a PM to Specialized Joe will clear it up.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Wait...if there is no difference, then why are you now recommending the 10R bike? 

On one hand, youre agreeing with the guy rationalizing buying the cheapo bike, who is claiming there is no difference except for a bit of weight, then on the other saying you, yourself would buy the better frame. 

Make up your mind...is the cheaper frame OK or is it not?

8R is consumer grade base level stuff. E5 hyfroformed smartweld is their best aluminum frame. To say the 8R carbon frame is better, even better than a CAAD 10, often considered to gold standard of AL frames, is crazy-cakes.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Rashadabd said:


> I am pretty much with Roadworthy on this one. It was only a few years ago that Fact 8r was Specialized mid-level to high-level frameset man. I have had multiple people admit to me, after I pushed some, that the only significant difference is a bit of weight. It's as stiff, maybe even more durable in crash because you are using more of it, and dampens road vibration just as good. I have consistently been told, both in here and at shops, that most people probably couldn't even tell if you set up two bikes with identical components and wheels and one was 8r and the other 10r. Without a scale, they wouldn't even know. My own test ride supported that premise for me. To each his own though, so if you want to pay more for a higher grade of carbon, then do so, but I highly doubt you can produce much evidence to support your conclusion that 8r is "crap"….
> 
> There are completely legitimate reasons why someone might choose an Allez Smartweld over a Roubiax Sora or Comp (price/budget, better spec, and/or preference for alloy, etc.), but IMO fact 8r carbon being "crap" just isn't one of them.


Evidence? Challenge accepted, pal:

Specialized FACT: Whitepaper: Materials Selection

So youre completely wrong in every way possible. 

Hey...if you want to argue "crap" was a bit of a strong word, fine. But the FACT is...its their base level stuff right now. And the differences between 8R and 10R and 11R are huge. HUGE. There are significant differences in manufacturing methods, fibers, and the finishing is different.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Evidence? Challenge accepted, pal:
> 
> Specialized FACT: Whitepaper: Materials Selection
> 
> ...


That chart doesn't even begin to quantify the modulus different between the various grades of carbon. The difference in carbon modulus is not huge as you assert and your reference to 8R carbon as being crap is absurd.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Wait...if there is no difference, then why are you now recommending the 10R bike?
> 
> On one hand, youre agreeing with the guy rationalizing buying the cheapo bike, who is claiming there is no difference except for a bit of weight, then on the other saying you, yourself would buy the better frame.
> 
> ...


Very little common ground between you and me. Likely the only thing we have in common is we both ride road bikes. I made a living in a world of moment of inertia and section modulus and differential planes of stress and the relationship between modulus of elasticity, yield strength and weight. My strong guess is you haven't. The simple truth is the weight difference between 8r and 10r speaks volumes for just how similar the lay up's and carbon types are. There isn't much between them for the average rider in particular. As to relationship between common geometry for SL4 Roubaix across all Roubaix models as it relates to particular carbon modulus, the percentage contribution of different carbon type is much smaller because frame section modulus accounts for much of the frame performance i.e. stress/strain under load as compared to any incremental modulus difference. 

As to my choice of frameset, I am way outside the demographic of a regular guy in the market for a road bike. I always build my bikes frameset up because I can't live off the shelf from pedals to seat posts to stems to cranks...a long list. The average guy who doesn't routinely change groupsets or parts constantly like I do has a very different priority and would do fine with the base off the shelf bike.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

roadworthy said:


> That chart doesn't even begin to quantify the modulus different between the various grades of carbon. The difference in carbon modulus is not huge as you assert and your reference to 8R carbon as being crap is absurd.


Amen. Nothing more needs to be said really. Base level does not equal "crap." Particularly when it was their mid-level or so framest a few years or so ago. Please show me anything where someone is complaining about the quality of an 8r carbon bike or where they even suggest it held them back against other bikes. Better yet, show us anything where someone other than you is referring to it as crap. Guess what, you can't because it doesn't exist.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Evidence? Challenge accepted, pal:
> 
> Specialized FACT: Whitepaper: Materials Selection
> 
> ...


Oh… and contrary to everything you have pretty much said, here are a number of reviews talking about how wonderful the Specialized entry-level frames are and why they are such a great value, particularly for someone that wants a low entry price and is looking to upgrade in the future. They are actually pretty tough to beat for the price:

Specialized Tarmac SL4 Sport review - BikeRadar

Specialized Tarmac Elite SL4 review - BikeRadar

Specialized Roubaix SL4 Sora review - BikeRadar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ-DpYeC-u0

VWVortex.com - My New ride: 2014 Specialized Roubaix Comp SL4 Ultegra


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Evidence? Challenge accepted, pal:
> 
> Specialized FACT: Whitepaper: Materials Selection
> 
> ...


And your white paper is completely out of date. Specialized only uses 8r and 10r and 11r on the Roubaix and 9r, 10r, and 11r on the Tarmac. Check their webpage and bike descriptions now.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Evidence? Challenge accepted, pal:
> 
> Specialized FACT: Whitepaper: Materials Selection
> 
> ...


Finally, there is only roughly about a 100 or so grams difference in weight between each Fact carbon level. So, once you control for the differences in wheels and components, we are often paying substantially more for a frameset that is only .5-.75 of a pound lighter. This is even more true when you are buying Specialized because the frames perform so similarly. That's what makes their lower level bikes such a great buy and it's one of the reasons that Specialized bikes with similar specs cost close to the same amount regardless of what carbon level they are. There's $3000 Roubaix bike (Comp) built around an 8r carbon frame for example.

2013 Specialized Road, Cyclocross & Triathlon Bikes ? Complete Overview & Actual Weights


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> Finally, there is only roughly about a 100 or so grams difference in weight between each Fact carbon level. So, once you control for the differences in wheels and components, we are often paying substantially more for a frameset that is only .5-.75 of a pound lighter. This is even more true when you are buying Specialized because the frames perform so similarly. That's what makes their lower level bikes such a great buy and it's one of the reasons that Specialized bikes with similar specs cost close to the same amount regardless of what carbon level they are. There's $3000 Roubaix bike (Comp) built around an 8r carbon frame for example.
> 
> 2013 Specialized Road, Cyclocross & Triathlon Bikes ? Complete Overview & Actual Weights


Well said.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

If you want to upgrade the bike before you have even bought it or are even looking to start swapping groupsets/parts then just stop.

Just buy the S-Works version and save yourself the headache. 

I say this from many years of experience.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

ewitz said:


> If you want to upgrade the bike before you have even bought it or are even looking to start swapping groupsets/parts then just stop.
> 
> Just buy the S-Works version and save yourself the headache.
> 
> I say this from many years of experience.


Of all the bikes, the S-works is perhaps the most dubious value aka cost/benefit.
So I say your solution is a bit over the top without an eye toward the bottom line.
Nothing wrong with buying the base bike and making some tweaks...or even stripping the bike for the frame and ebaying the parts and replacing them with what you like.

As stated, my personal opinion is...buy the Pro frameset and hang the stuff on it you like. In a blind test, probably most won't be able to discern the difference of 1R between the Pro and Sworks.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

roadworthy said:


> That chart doesn't even begin to quantify the modulus different between the various grades of carbon. The difference in carbon modulus is not huge as you assert and your reference to 8R carbon as being crap is absurd.


The Modulus on 8R is 294 and 10R is 390. I would say that is a pretty big difference. Could not find the rating of the 11R, but I will keep looking. Specialized is weird in the way they talk about carbon. Just a marketing thing, sound impressive, but the marketing language is a language all its own.



Rashadabd said:


> Better yet, show us anything where someone other than you is referring to it as crap. Guess what, you can't because it doesn't exist.


The funny thing about opinions is that there is always someone that agrees with you. Yes, I would not buy a 8R frame cause they are crap. That said, I have one because at the time, it was the highest rating SW made at the time. I would not buy one now. So, you are wrong, there is one other person in the world that agrees that they are crap. 



RkFast said:


> IMHO, FACT 8R and other low level carbon is just for people who want to say they have a carbon bike. Its crap. Its not terribly light. Its not terribly stiff. But hey...is "carbon."
> 
> Price being about equal, Id take the E5 Aluminum bike (the better aluminum) and 105 parts over 8R carbon and sora level bits every day of the week.


I would agree with the principle of this statement. I would buy a bike with better components [since that is what we use all the time, shifting, braking, and wheels] before a better frame. Just to clarify, we are not talking Huffy rated frames.



ewitz said:


> If you want to upgrade the bike before you have even bought it or are even looking to start swapping groupsets/parts then just stop.
> 
> Just buy the S-Works version and save yourself the headache.
> 
> I say this from many years of experience.


Some people will never understand buying the best there is. Ferrari would be out of business if you had to justify the expense. I too agree, buy a S-Works and design the rest yourself. Cost be damn. Life is too short. Most of us work our butts off, so why not enjoy some of it buying things that make us happy, not what makes others happy. I have found that buying something that is not what you want is a waste of money, because I will eventually buy what I want anyway.

Maybe an S-Works is not what you want, either way. Making your own bike is usually not the cheapest route, but sure can be the best.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

1Butcher said:


> The Modulus on 8R is 294 and 10R is 390. I would say that is a pretty big difference. Could not find the rating of the 11R, but I will keep looking. Specialized is weird in the way they talk about carbon. Just a marketing thing, sound impressive, but the marketing language is a language all its own.


Providing integer values without units is pretty meaningless. What are the units of the modulus numbers you provide? Also, please site your source for your modulus numbers.

Lastly a pop quiz to see if you grasp the subject at hand.. With a modulus differential of almost 25%, why it is to all but a handful of riders can discern the difference in ride quality and frame performance? The answer lies in strength of materials and involves the relationship between section modulus and material properties...former plays a key role.

Post the units and I will share more.


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## wabasso (May 18, 2012)

^"cite".


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

1Butcher said:


> The Modulus on 8R is 294 and 10R is 390. I would say that is a pretty big difference. Could not find the rating of the 11R, but I will keep looking. Specialized is weird in the way they talk about carbon. Just a marketing thing, sound impressive, but the marketing language is a language all its own.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, blanket statements are meaningless, what makes it crap? Please tell us you have something more than that it's base level…. Do they fall apart when people are riding them (prone to fatigue)? Are they extremely heavy? Are they substantially inferior at soaking up road vibration? Are they not stiff enough on climbs or out the the saddle efforts? Do you have any objective criteria you can point to as to why you can say 8r frames are "crap" so clearly? Because all I have heard in reviews and at shops is that the opposite is true and my own test ride on a SL4 Roubaix with Sora led me to the conclusion that I couldn't tell much of a deifference between 8r, 9r, or 10r bike, and a 5 Series Domane, a 5 Series Madone, a Cervelo R3, a Cervelo S5, etc. regarding quality of carbon fiber. The bikes had different qualites as they were designed for different purposes and audiences, but none of them felt like "crap" and certainly not the 8r Roubaix.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

roadworthy said:


> Providing integer values without units is pretty meaningless. What are the units of the modulus numbers you provide? Also, please site your source for your modulus numbers.


Yeah, I agree. But your frustration is not with me but the marketing from Specialized. The Modulus numbers are in Giga Pascals. They also list the tensile strength for the 8R at 5490 and the 10R at 4610. That's Mega Pascals. If you Google the information, it will show you that. If you are having issues finding it, let me know. I found it in 15mins. It is a Specialized factory brochure. As you know, I'm not an engineer. If you want to make yourself feel superior with your education, that is fine. I'm just a Butcher who works on cars. I'm pretty good at it and I try not to make people feel inferior about my abilities.



Rashadabd said:


> Again, blanket statements are meaningless, what makes it crap? Please tell us you have something more than that it's base level…. Do they fall apart when people are riding them (prone to fatigue)? Are they extremely heavy? Are they substantially inferior at soaking up road vibration? Are they not stiff enough on climbs or out the the saddle efforts? Do you have any objective criteria you can point to as to why you can say 8r frames are "crap" so clearly? Because all I have heard in reviews and at shops is that the opposite is true and my own test ride on a SL4 Roubaix with Sora led me to the conclusion that I couldn't tell much of a difference between 8r, 9r, or 10r bike, and a 5 Series Domane, a 5 Series Madone, a Cervelo R3, a Cervelo S5, etc. regarding quality of carbon fiber. The bikes had different qualities as they were designed for different purposes and audiences, but none of them felt like "crap" and certainly not the 8r Roubaix.


I agree with you. Making a blanket statements are meaningless. I think Big Macs are crap. I do not have to justify to you what my opinion is. If you really like the Big Mac, I couldn't ever convince you that it makes me vomit. If you cannot tell the difference between the frames, why would you bad mouth someone that say's he can? 

Making a blanket statement that indicates no one has the same opinion as the 'that guy' is just crap. It's OK that you like the 8R frames. It's just weird that your opinion is right and the other guy's is wrong. I have a 6R Tarmac frame and an 8R SW Tarmac frame. There is a big difference in the thickness of the tubing and the weight of the frame. I also have a 11R SW Tarmac frame too and would now say the 8R is crap. 

I have worked on many of the Mercedes Gull Wing vehicles. If you have ever driven one, they are crap. I would take a SL65 over a Gull Wing any day. They are much better, smoother, faster, etc. 

The 8R was the King at one time, now there are better. I'm not saying you have to agree with me, I'm just saying.

I hope you do not mind that I corrected the spelling in the quote. Your spelling is crap [common, that is a joke, sorry if your not laughing].


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

1Butcher said:


> Yeah, I agree. But your frustration is not with me but the marketing from Specialized. The Modulus numbers are in Giga Pascals. They also list the tensile strength for the 8R at 5490 and the 10R at 4610. That's Mega Pascals. If you google the information, it will show you that. If you are having issues finding it, let me know. I found it in 15mins. It is a Specialized factory brochure. As you know, I'm not an engineer. If you want to make yourself feel superior with your education, that is fine. I'm just a Butcher who works on cars. I'm pretty good at it and I try not to make people feel inferior about my abilities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough, but in essence the real conclusion to be drawn here is that there is no objective criteria that leads us to the conclusion that 8r frames are crap. It's just your opinion. Which is not a problem in and of itself. I am sure you can understand though how when everyone else I have talked to, including people that have spent their entire careers or a bunch of their lives selling, working on, and/or racing bikes (not cars, planes, trains and rocket ships), says the opposite of you two, that might carry a little more weight for me than your opinion. Particularly, when my experience on test rides and everything I have read in reviews supports what they have said. That's my only point and if we end up at you don't like 8r frames and I think they are a fine investment and even a great value, that's cool. My only problem was with the blanket statement they are "crap" without some objective evidence to support it. Bygones...


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

I do believe things evolve and where once it was perfect, something else took it's place. It would be great to see a review of an older Tarmac [05] and a newer one and see what comes out on top.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

1Butcher said:


> Yeah, I agree. But your frustration is not with me but the marketing from Specialized. The Modulus numbers are in Giga Pascals. They also list the tensile strength for the 8R at 5490 and the 10R at 4610. That's Mega Pascals. If you Google the information, it will show you that. If you are having issues finding it, let me know. I found it in 15mins. It is a Specialized factory brochure. As you know, I'm not an engineer. If you want to make yourself feel superior with your education, that is fine. I'm just a Butcher who works on cars. I'm pretty good at it and I try not to make people feel inferior about my abilities.


Thanks for the specification of units and where you obtained your information.
Making you or anybody else feel uneducated is exactly not what I am about. I am an educator. I taught mechanical engineering and am interested in teaching. I 'was' going to show you some basic equations explaining the relationship between bending, moment of inertia of non symmetric hollow tubes and modulus of elasticity and why the role of modulus while important can be compensated for bending by frame section modulus which is a function of geometry. . Your dismissal of 8R carbon for example completely dismisses all bicycle materials other than carbon which include steel, aluminum and Ti as 8R carbon has a *much *higher modulus than another of these other common frame materials many love...including the Sworks E5 Aluminum bike. So how is a material like Al with 69 GPa modulus of elasticity can end up feeling stiffer than any carbon S-works Specialized bike? That is the essence of engineering. Geometry in combination with material properties is what determines frameset bending and energy transfer. The relatively small difference by comparison between 8R and even 11R carbon can and 'is' easily compensated by wall section and layup with only a modest weight deficit. This can and 'is' computer modeled by Specialized engineers by FEA and why the new 8R SL4 bikes have such outstanding ride characteristics with only a small deficit in weight.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

1Butcher said:


> I do believe things evolve and where once it was perfect, something else took it's place. It would be great to see a review of an older Tarmac [05] and a newer one and see what comes out on top.


This is easy - newer is always better. Just ask Specialized (or anyone selling something).

Honestly, it's true that the new supplants the old at the high-end but I struggled with this issue when I was considering which Roubaix to buy (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/specialized/there-difference-feel-between-8r-10r-carbon-322111.html). I was approaching this from the opposite angle: I was concerned that a 10 frame might transmit too much road noise to my neck. It's turned out to be a non-issue and while I am happy with my purchase of the Expert, I just rode my bike and a Sport back-to-back when having some fit adjustments done and found the differences to be marginal. I am a new rider (175 pounds) so I am hardly taxing the frame but on revisiting this I would say most people could barely tell the difference.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

FWIW The SW Tarmac frame [8R] module is 100grams lighter, torsionally stiffer, and has a stiffer BB, than the Tarmac Pro [6R]. Both frames are identical. 

Sure shoots down the theory that they are similar but heavier theory. I also agree that you can make them exactly the same, but there would even be more of a weight difference. It would be interesting what a 8R and 11R frame would weigh if all the stiffness values tested the same. Probably a lot more than we think.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

1Butcher said:


> Sure shoots down the theory that they are similar but heavier theory. I also agree that you can make them exactly the same, but there would even be more of a weight difference. It would be interesting what a 8R and 11R frame would weigh if all the stiffness values tested the same. Probably a lot more than we think.


They would be no point in making the frames have the same stiffness. The whole point in using higher modulus fiber is to make something lighter and stiffer at the cost of loss in tensile strength. That 10r frame is more likely to break on impact because it uses less material AND because it has less tensile strength. There is a bunch of give-and-take when looking at the advantages of one carbon over another.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

1Butcher said:


> FWIW The SW Tarmac frame [8R] module is 100grams lighter, torsionally stiffer, and has a stiffer BB, than the Tarmac Pro [6R]. Both frames are identical.
> 
> Sure shoots down the theory that they are similar but heavier theory. I also agree that you can make them exactly the same, but there would even be more of a weight difference. It would be interesting what a 8R and 11R frame would weigh if all the stiffness values tested the same. Probably a lot more than we think.


First, the two frames you reference do NOT weigh the same (by design intent) and therefore your hypothetical argument of 'if they did' is irrelevant.
Second, and this is the big misconception missed in this thread and the signature marketing component of the new Tarmac SL5...rider specific geometry.

The S-Works frame that most covet is largely irrelevant to the average rider. Why? Because it is already way more stiff than any CAT 1 can even flex out of the saddle. So what does that mean? Nth degree stiffness doesn't matter. In fact, Specialized are conceding this fact by default with their small frames for the new Tarmac. If you can't flex the frame, its magnitude of stiffness in vertical and horizontal planes doesn't matter. Tom Boonen will flex his S-Works Roubaix far more than any average man will flex the equivalent bike with 8R modulus. Basically for an average rider, as has been reflected by many who have done the comparison testing, there is virtually nothing between the 8R and 10R bikes in performance. Yes, they will feel and even sound slightly different because of the different resonant frequency due to the thinner wall section of 10R but not only will the stiffness difference not be felt, either will the few grams that basically amount to whether you fill your water bottle. The S-Works bikes are designed for world class riders and they have what it takes to win at the highest level but are largely overkill for any average rider because an average rider can't flex them.

This applies to the new SL5 for smaller riders as well. Specialized has concluded based upon their testing that for smaller riders who statistically put out less power than bigger riders,the Tarmac SL4 was too stiff for optimal performance and they addressed this with the new SL5.

A last point and this will likely go right over your head if the concept of section modulus escapes you and you don't consider its relative importance compared to material properties. A base model SL4 Tarmac constructed from 8R carbon will be stiffer laterally than a SL3 Tarmac Pro consisting of 10R or earlier Sworks SL2 Tarmac constructed of 8R carbon when 8R was considered their best grade of carbon. This is because the geometry of the bike affects stiffness and energy transfer exponentially and modulus only linearly.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

There's an interesting article on the cervelo website which discusses how much "difference" the average rider can actually feel. Its backed up with some test data involving riders and unmarked frames. In the tests they focused on vibration and came up with a perception limit of about 10%. Seems to me vibration is probably the easiest to feel. I doubt anyone can feel a 10% stiffness difference.

http://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering/ask-the-engineers/just-noticeable-difference.html


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

goodboyr said:


> There's an interesting article on the cervelo website which discusses how much "difference" the average rider can actually feel. Its backed up with some test data involving riders and unmarked frames. In the tests they focused on vibration and came up with a perception limit of about 10%. Seems to me vibration is probably the easiest to feel. I doubt anyone can feel a 10% stiffness difference.
> 
> Just Noticeable Difference - Cervélo


It is interesting and I agree with the article. Quantifying human sensory perception. Not easy. And people are quite different. Before the great Sheldon Brown died I was fortunate to correspond with him and put what I thought were some of the most different questions to him and he was gracious enough to respond. One subject was about bike handling as it relates to geometry, trail, size, head tube angle etc. What he told me I will not forget. He said that humans are highly adaptive creatures. When he is out riding his tandem and then jumps on one of his raciest of road bikes with upright angles, he can barely keep it on the road. It feels impossibly nervous and ill handling. After 10 miles, that all melts away. Then when he jumps back on the long wheelbase tandem, it feels like a school bus...and that too erodes in just a few miles. People adapt. I believe a lot of the difference that people feel because high and lower modulus carbon framesets is auditory...sound and also high frequency vibration. Exact same dynamic as riding deep V carbon wheels versus traditional box section Al wheels...sound and high frequency vibration. 10 miles in the saddle and that becomes simply a new norm.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

roadworthy said:


> First, the two frames you reference do NOT weigh the same (by design intent) and therefore your hypothetical argument of 'if they did' is irrelevant.


The frames I referenced do not weight the same. That was mentioned by me. Do not know why you are indicating I'm wrong. What appears to be a standard with Specialized is that the higher the R number, the lighter and stiffer the frame is [same model frames, comparing apples to apples].

Comparing different versions of the Tarmac [SL3, SL4, etc] is just silly. All have different everything. 

I still stand by my statement, even if you feel it is irrelevant. 

All of this because 8R is crap. Although the choice of words may not be what we would use, it seems to be the 8R was the King of the Hill, and now it is on the lower end of the spectrum. At some point, the 11R may see it's rating dropped too. Evolution. Having an 8R frame in general will be heavier and less stiff. If humans can detect that, is irrelevant according to the marketing team at Specialized. They'll spin it in a way I will want it.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

1Butcher said:


> The frames I referenced do not weight the same. That was mentioned by me. Do not know why you are indicating I'm wrong. What appears to be a standard with Specialized is that the higher the R number, the lighter and stiffer the frame is [same model frames, comparing apples to apples].
> 
> Comparing different versions of the Tarmac [SL3, SL4, etc] is just silly. All have different everything.
> 
> ...


There is no substantive response to anything you wrote above including your outrageous assertion that 8R is crap.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

goodboyr said:


> There's an interesting article on the cervelo website which discusses how much "difference" the average rider can actually feel. Its backed up with some test data involving riders and unmarked frames. In the tests they focused on vibration and came up with a perception limit of about 10%. Seems to me vibration is probably the easiest to feel. I doubt anyone can feel a 10% stiffness difference.
> 
> Just Noticeable Difference - Cervélo


This is so on point. Great post.


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## nismo73 (Jul 29, 2009)

I can really put this all to rest...I passed by someone on a hill today who was on a CADD 10 without too much trouble on my 7r Roubaix frame. Word.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

nismo73 said:


> I can really put this all to rest...I passed by someone on a hill today who was on a CADD 10 without too much trouble on my 7r Roubaix frame. Word.


And your 7r Roubaix has 3x's the young's modulus of the Al in that CAAD10 which is perhaps the most popular crit race bike on the planet.


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

All right guys, I cant say how much I appreciate the discussion this thread generated. Yesterday I bought a SL4 Sora. Got it for $1600, $729 for the full Ultegra 6800 from Planet Cyclery, $150 for the LBS to install the components. $1000 store credit for my Tarmac. I haven't decided if I will add the CG post or not but that is $200 or so if I do.

May be a couple weeks before I get the final product up and running as the have to order the bike in my size and I have some travel for work but I'll post some pics.

thanks again guys!


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Soonerinfrisco said:


> All right guys, I cant say how much I appreciate the discussion this thread generated. Yesterday I bought a SL4 Sora. Got it for $1600, $729 for the full Ultegra 6800 from Planet Cyclery, $150 for the LBS to install the components. $1000 store credit for my Tarmac. I haven't decided if I will add the CG post or not but that is $200 or so if I do.
> 
> May be a couple weeks before I get the final product up and running as the have to order the bike in my size and I have some travel for work but I'll post some pics.
> 
> thanks again guys!


Congrats man!!! Looking forward to seeing the finished product.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Congrats on the new bike. You made the "best" choice - the choice that works for you.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

I have a 2014 Expert. I replaced the Fulcrum wheels which I didn't like at all and the FSA crank with an Ultegra crank and Praxis BB. Definitely smoother and better shifting. I'm considering a Tarmac now and would get the 8r frame and replace wheels, crank, and BB, and add Ultegra calipers.
Saying the 8r frame is crap is foolish and nothing more than that needs to be said.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

darwinosx said:


> I have a 2014 Expert. I replaced the Fulcrum wheels which I didn't like at all and the FSA crank with an Ultegra crank and Praxis BB. Definitely smoother and better shifting. I'm considering a Tarmac now and would get the 8r frame and replace wheels, crank, and BB, and add Ultegra calipers.
> Saying the 8r frame is crap is foolish and nothing more than that needs to be said.


It sounds like you will end up with two nice bikes that way. Oh, and the Sport and Elite level Tarmac bikes are 9r instead of 8r. So, they are even closer to the Expert and Pro level carbon if that matters at all to you.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Oh yeah, 9r..I can't imagine I will notice the difference between 9r and 10r.


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## George M (Sep 25, 2008)

darwinosx said:


> Oh yeah, 9r..I can't imagine I will notice the difference between 9r and 10r.


You probably wouldn't notice any change or difference from the 8 to 10.


edit, I just thought of something. I had a 2007 Roubaix fact 6 and now I have the fact 8 Roubaix Comp and I do notice a difference. I think it's a much better bike. So much better in fact ( pun intended) that I sold my Look 566. Sorry for the mix up. Enjoy the new bike.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Duane Behrens said:


> I own both.
> 
> Roubaix for comfort. Tarmac for climbs.
> 
> Steel for fun.


I'm thinking Roubaix for comfort and Tarmac for intervals which I do when I only have an hour or so to ride and to help with weight loss.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Yeah some of the older Spesh bikes I have noticed a difference but not 8r and 10r. Like I can flex the bottom bracket on some of the older bikes.


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

Here we go! Finally done. Between a delay in getting the cassette from Planet Cyclery and travel for work, I brought her home today. SL4 Fact 8 frame, full Ultegra 6800 and new Velocity Deep V/Ultegra wheel set. Unfortunatley, I did discover that my older 10 speed CXP33/Ultegra wheel set was not compatible. Had them put the stock tires on my new wheelset and flip the stem. Will fine tune when I ride her some. 19.5 lbs as she sits. And yes, it was a quick shot with my phone. Best I could do today.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Nice work. How much did you save?
I replaced the FSA crank and Specialized bottom bracket on my 2014 Roubaix Expert with a Praxis bottom bracket and Ultra crank and much prefer it over stock.


Soonerinfrisco said:


> Here we go! Finally done. Between a delay in getting the cassette from Planet Cyclery and travel for work, I brought her home today. SL4 Fact 8 frame, full Ultegra 6800 and new Velocity Deep V/Ultegra wheel set. Unfortunatley, I did discover that my older 10 speed CXP33/Ultegra wheel set was not compatible. Had them put the stock tires on my new wheelset and flip the stem. Will fine tune when I ride her some. 19.5 lbs as she sits. And yes, it was a quick shot with my phone. Best I could do today.
> 
> View attachment 297281


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

$1600 for bike (1870 with tax)
$729 for 6800 groupo
$150 for build up
= $2757
They threw in Lizard skin bar wrap.

So in the end, I have $2757 invested. I did get $1200 plus tax for my Tarmac as trade in. The Expert, which is near full ultegra is about $3600 in DFW and the top end Fact 8 is about $2900 and is only half ultegra. The Ultegra gray color is an almost identical match to the satin gray on the bike. Looks sharp

I either had to buy a wheelset or have my old Ultegra hub upgraded for the 11 speed build, so I opted to buy a new wheelset from Velo Mine for $278 with shipping. I will probably go ahead and have my old wheel restrung by Colo Cyclist at some point just to have a backup set. With the Deep Vs, this bike ended up at the same exact weight as the stock Expert.


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## George M (Sep 25, 2008)

That bike looks exactly like mine, so of course it looks good. lol I put the Fulcrum 3s on mine, which I like a lot.

By the way, what size is your bike.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Really interesting. I think I'm going to do something similar with a Tarmac since I have a Roubaix.



Soonerinfrisco said:


> $1600 for bike (1870 with tax)
> $729 for 6800 groupo
> $150 for build up
> = $2757
> ...


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

George M said:


> That bike looks exactly like mine, so of course it looks good. lol I put the Fulcrum 3s on mine, which I like a lot.
> 
> By the way, what size is your bike.


58

Her maiden voyage was a 35 mile club ride at 15mph yesterday with hurricane like winds. Tough day of riding with the wind. But loved everything about my new bike except the saddle. Wasn't terrible but too much cushion for me so I will trade it for a different model. The ride quality was very similar to my 06 Tarmac just more upright position which made me much more comfortable. Rides just like a more upright version of my old Tarmac. The 6800 was flawless. Really nice group. The brifter is a bit smaller than my old DuraAce but felt fine. I chose a 12-25 cassette and could easily fine tune my spinning gear. I'd recommend the 6800 setup but realize that most 10sp hubs will not work with the 11sp hub. So wheels will need to be rebuilt or replaced. I actually think the Deep Vs look better on my bike but do outweigh my CXP33/Ultrega set.


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## George M (Sep 25, 2008)

I have the 6700 ultegra components on mine. Since I've been reading this forum I probably should upgrade that to the 6800. I was at the LBS yesterday asking about Campy, but they didn't think it was a good idea, as you couldn't get parts for it. I told them that it was hard to get parts for anything anymore. I just wonder if it's worth the money to upgrade, for the kind of riding I do.


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## expatbrit (Oct 16, 2013)

I'm hoping to upgrade the girls to 6700 -- hand me downs! She has the Sora crank; any huge reasons to upgrade that immediately, and if I do -- does it already have a Shimano adapter? In assuming 'yes', but that gets me in trouble a lot!


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

Hey, wanna buy the rest of the Sora groupo to go with that crank, cheap! Just kidding. My LBS said that the SL4 did come with the adapter since it comes stock with the Sora crank, but you will want to check first. I have a bike with 9sp ultegra and it is also a great group. I would imagine that even if shimano wants to phase out the old groups, the inet will be full of 8-10sp parts for the forseeable future.

One thing I certainly would do however is to make sure any new wheel builds that I endeavor will be 11sp compatible. I guarantee that Shimano will not make the 11sp cassettes backward compatible....


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## expatbrit (Oct 16, 2013)

Lol! 

Oddly, I have the whole thing, on her bike!


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## dealraker (Sep 1, 2010)

I have a 2005 Tarmac 54 frame Fact 6 which is exactly 1300 grams and the fork 350. These sub fact 11 frames are pretty impressive actually.


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## b-rad2 (Dec 8, 2006)

Intriguing. 

I am looking at either Pro or Expert frames. I want Ultegra but maybe Di2. I'm definitely not interested in Sram. 

Haven't been thrilled with feedback on Roval wheels but since I'm considering disk brakes I am most like stuck there.

My LBS owner said he was at specialized a couple weeks ago riding hydraulics and Di2 and said they were bulletproof together. That it was almost anticipating his moves. That's compelling.


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## dealraker (Sep 1, 2010)

I am an average rider---- but last night with a group I did do a delightful 37 mile 22.2 average through the rolling hills of Piedmont North Carolina. I have had Fact 6, Fact 8, Fact 9 and Fact 10 bikes from Specialized. There have been many specific things I've felt with the bikes and being a relatively small man (155 lbs) one of them is the ever-so-slight weight differences. But to even say that the Fact 6 and 8 bikes are somehow "crap" compared to the Fact 10 is simply nothing but wrong. On a long steep hill I may be a little slower on the Fact 6 bike. Otherwise I do enjoy the efforts Specialized and others are putting forth to make better frames. Still the older ones, or lesser Fact ones.....I just can't tell much difference at all at my level of riding.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

dealraker said:


> I am an average rider---- but last night with a group I did do a delightful 37 mile 22.2 average through the rolling hills of Piedmont North Carolina. I have had Fact 6, Fact 8, Fact 9 and Fact 10 bikes from Specialized. There have been many specific things I've felt with the bikes and being a relatively small man (155 lbs) one of them is the ever-so-slight weight differences. But to even say that the Fact 6 and 8 bikes are somehow "crap" compared to the Fact 10 is simply nothing but wrong. On a long steep hill I may be a little slower on the Fact 6 bike. Otherwise I do enjoy the efforts Specialized and others are putting forth to make better frames. Still the older ones, or lesser Fact ones.....I just can't tell much difference at all at my level of riding.


I agree with what you wrote and 22+mph in a group ride average is a sporty pace so you likely represent many of us here in terms of your performance level.
For an average power rider in particular, likely carbon modulus is more about weight...which isn't much...as compared to increase in frame stiffness and power transfer. Your experience bears this out. Further Specialized has rather dramatically revised frame sections over the years and this has a much greater affect on vertical/lateral stiffness than 1 or 2 pts of carbon modulus for the simple fact that more carbon is added at lower modules to get same level of strength.


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## b-rad2 (Dec 8, 2006)

My plot thickens:

I had a beautiful Trek Domane 6.9 w/ DA Di2 and disks bat it's eyes at me today :blush2:. For the same price as a Roubaix Pro w/ same but Ultegra groupo. (?!?!?!)

Always made fun of Treks (not entirely sure why) but this bike...I don't know...


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Domane is a very nice bike. Take it for a ride.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Look carefully at the geometry, tire clearance, general features, pros and cons of discs, then get the one that is closest to your needs and fit requirements. Both are good bikes. The new Ultegra is every bit as good as DA. So the group set should not enter into the decision....unless you want electronic in which case it should be the Trek since its got DI2. The Shimano hydraulic disc brakes would be a plus to me, although standard rim brakes - especially Shimano - are just fine. 

My advice: If you already have a Specialized, then go with the Trek. If not then go with the Roubaix. But fit trumps all so be sure of the geometry before moving on either.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

*SL4 Sora Disc Roubix here*

Good thread, felt compelled to make some of my observations part of the data points.

Picked up a Sora SL4 Disc Roubaix the other day for $1475.00. And now I have a lifetime warranty on my 8R frame. 

Excuse me if I jump around a little, my brain just works like that.

Reason, the 2005 Comp Roubaix I have and ride as my comfort bike is just a bit too spongy for me. Allow me to qualify that without saying stuff like it is crap or too flexy yada. Going to sell it off, maybe with the Sora pulled parts and keep the recent 6703 off it for something else. 

Other reasons: Hidden cables, DI ready, fat carbon tubes, BB7 disc on the one I got. OSBB with a Hollowtech II in it with adapters already so you can pop in any Hollowtech crank in it Plug and Play. 

If I try to ride very hard and fast for 50 miles on the 05 I find myself a lot more tired than 80 miles of hammering on my 2009 Scott Addict LTD, 7800 D/A. I am 210 lb, ride 58-61 bikes and do hard efforts and sprint and recovery intervals often. OK, that makes the stiffness content analogous I hope. I can move a BB being the point, bigger frame [me and bikes] and can and do push things.

Back to the SL4. Pulled the wheels to sell unused and popped on my LX 29er disk wheels with some 27mm Paves Vitts. Also popped on a 7800 39/53 crank. Want to sell off the Sora parts and wheels etc., so off they came but left on the shifters and DRs to see how they felt. 30 mile inaugural yesterday with the wife, easy but a few sprints and 30+ MPH pushes to get a sense of response. Not disappointing to me from what I have done so far with it.

Anyway, Sora 9 spd STI worked perfectly and shifted perfectly, KMC chain FWIW. Bonus, the Top Caps are windowed and have gear indicators which is cool a little bit. 

Today, 7800 derailleurs, chain and STIs with some Ritchy Bars that came off my 14 year old Strong when I cobbled it as a SS/FIXED/ENO it last December.  Also pulled the 7800 cranks in favor of 6750 Compact setup and a new 11-28 Ultegra cassette the Scott did not like [even with B screw reversed].

OK, a lot stiffer than the 2005 all carbon Comp. Fits exactly the same which I love, but somehow feels like it fits a little better, in my head I am sure. It feels almost as good as the Addict climbing out of the saddle. If we want to get into modulas, the Scott is HMX, What 'R' is that equiv to, I dunno.

I tended not to push a hard gear with the 05 Roubaix and it made me tired faster as I said, but still not crap, nor the end of the world or anything... just not as stiff, noticeably so with my size and weight and bike size.

Going to build or buy some 15-1600 gram wheels with carbon rims now that I do not have to worry about brake pads on the rims with the discs. Something at my weight I dislike and use AL rims all my rim brake bikes by preference.

Bike weight with Keywin pedals and old Ti saddle with the Pave Seatpost off the 05 with one carbon WB cage and a seat pack with two tubes and 3 tire irons is 20.7 lb. I am sure I will loose over a lb with the path I intend to take wheel wise, and maybe some lighter tires. The 320 TPI 27mm Paves are 270? grams each, but ride SOOO nice.

So some 25C Black Chilis maybe. But I have the Scott for that, right?

I feel comfortable saying this is a great bike. Well worth running the Sora off it and popping on some 11Speed later, and it is Di ready if so desired. I can think of nothing that remotely qualifies this bike as crap IMO.

If I get any creaks happening in the BB cranks, a Praxis will go in post haste. 

Cheers!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Let me add that the SL4 8R feels a lot like a Madone to me, first rolling impression. Ridden a few of those, wife has a 4.5 also...


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I test rode a Domane, the back and front felt like two different bikes to me. Either the front was overly stiff, or my brain thought that because the back was very couchie. That's a word, right?

Also rode a Bianchi Sempre and even with 120 lbs of air in 23C tires it dampened road buzz better than anything else I have ever ridden.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Popped on some old axial Pro that are 28+ mm on these rims. 

The kids gave me the Pikachu years ago and I keep it on one bike for sentimental reasons. So no silly prepubescent comments please. ;(

One thing, my heal occasionally hits the rear caliper. May need to tweak the cleats a little....

So here is a shot for the thread:


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Some miles later, some things to consider. my 47CM shoe and a shortish chainstay road bike with a 135mm spaced rear and a disc = occasional heel strikes on the caliper. Rotated my cleats a bit and it helped. I may wind up with with the TRPs as the adjustment and actuation arm does not stick out as far. Or maybe put my 10s Ulterga Triple Groupo on it, the Q-factor on the triple crank over the double would give me 6mm more room foot to caliper.

Also, chain line is more susceptible to cross chaining quirks with the 135 rear spacing and shortish road chainstays [compared to a MTB for example]. The shorter road chain stay is also bringing that caliper closer to ones foot too of course. I never hit my heel on the disc Poprad I used to have, longer chainstays?

EDIT: I see the 2015 is no longer called the Sora Disk Roubaix.
It also comes with the TRP Spyre brakes, lower thinner profile than the BB7 caliper by a lot. It also for the same MSRP of $1950.00 now comes with the CG-R Zertz $200.00 seatpost. I suspect the SL4 even in the 8R is a lot stiffer that what Roubaix riders in general like. Probably Spech is afraid to loose more Roubaix riders to the Domane to the tune of giving a 200.00 seatpost with the base model Roubaix. Now I love how stiff it is cause I am a big dude. I knew it would be stiffer than my 05 Roubaix just by looking at the tube sizes and shapes, especially the 2x4s for chain stays. But it has exceeded my estimation by a good sum. I would not have minded if it was a little less stiff honestly. But I am liking it. 

As to the Stiffness, I would not want it any stiffer based on my 3 rides. Again, I also ride a HMX Scott Addict LTD for a stiffness comparison as far as my experience goes. I can't imagine what the 11R S-Works SL4 must be like next to the 8R honestly.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

I had the same impression of the Domane. I don't get how people like that but I know at least one person who has one. But I see WAY more Roubaix than Domanes in southern cali so at least here Spesh has nothing to worry about.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Because they are the Ford of American bike manufacturers?
I've seen Treks since the late 70's and somehow they never really appealed to me. I've had a few but some time ago. The Trek 2500 and 1400 in 1988 were the last ones I owned I think. I test rode a Madone fairly recently. It was ok but I always felt Trek's geometry was a little off for me. Like I had to move the handlebars too much to steer is the only way I can explain it. I also feel that way a little about the Roubaix which I solved by buying a Tarmac. 
Now that the Roubaix is $300 cheaper in the Expert it's a little less appealing to buy a cheaper model and upgrade the components. I guess thats their way of keeping people interested even though it doesn't have the newer frame yet. 



b-rad2 said:


> Always made fun of Treks (not entirely sure why) but this bike...I don't know...


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

More Roubaixs here in PDX as well. One Domane among the groups of the local club I ride with frequently. May be more, just what I have seen...

Called Spesh Support and asked why my new comfort bike feels like a race bike, and that I did not need another race bike with a Scott Addict LTD in the stable. Waiting to see a result of that conversation.

I probably will sell off the Scott and keep the old Roubaix for a comfort bike.  SL4 is that stiff IMO.

BTW, was told the 8R is not less stiff, just not as light as the 10R and 11R S-Works SL4s. I commented that could not imagine how much stiffer the 10+R must be. So where I suggested that previously in the thread should be taken for what the assumption is worth, nada.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

You will get a different wheel set between the base model and the "Expert", and the upgrade parts for the wheels may not be included in your gruppo. Perhaps a few other component and build differences too.
I'm seeing the Expert discounted down to $3000. 
Specialized Roubaix SL4 Expert Ultegra from Bike Bling

Of course, this is a few months after the thread was started.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

robt57 said:


> Called Spesh Support and asked why my new comfort bike feels like a race bike, and that I did not need another race bike with a Scott Addict LTD in the stable. Waiting to see a result of that conversation.


Why would you call Specialized to tell them you bought a bike that was too stiff for you? Did you road test it before you bought it? Did it just get stiff with age? What are you expecting from Specialized? Sounds like you are either looking for an argument or have buyers remorse. 

Since I doubt it got stiffer with age and it was just as stiff as it was on the first road test. I would go talk to the guy in the mirror to find out what happened. Surely, it's not Specialized fault that you bought the wrong bike for you.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I doubt it got stiffer with age also. Since the SL4 is only a week old tomorrow. 

The comfort Roubaix is SUPPOSED to be the right bike considering the one it replaced is and every one I have ridden to date pre-SL4.

Remorse, no, not yet....


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm just lost on why anyone would buy a bike that is too stiff, then complain to the company that the bike is too stiff. And to top it off, expect the company to comeback and try to make you happy on a bike you never should of purchased.

Just me, maybe I'm the weird one.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

In all fairness, unless the shop lets you take the bike on an extended test ride it's hard to get a realistic feel for the stiffness of a bike/frame. Going from a Roubaix SL2 to the SL4 via Specialized warranty I also thought the SL4 was too stiff. Once I added the CG-R seat post I was happy with the ride quality. All 2015 SL4 Roubaix's now come with the CG-R seat post stock which (IMO) is a good thing for a bike advertised as being "plush."

I test rode a Domane 6 series for about 45 minutes and it is a MUCH smoother riding bike than the Roubaix. But it also feels more muted/isolated during spirited riding.


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## nismo73 (Jul 29, 2009)

I almost feel like when the SL5 comes out next year, that they'll say it's more compliant in the rear while maintaining the power transfer.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Dunbar said:


> In all fairness, unless the shop lets you take the bike on an extended test ride it's hard to get a realistic feel for the stiffness of a bike/frame. Going from a Roubaix SL2 to the SL4 via Specialized warranty I also thought the SL4 was too stiff. Once I added the CG-R seat post I was happy with the ride quality. All 2015 SL4 Roubaix's now come with the CG-R seat post stock which (IMO) is a good thing for a bike advertised as being "plush."
> 
> I test rode a Domane 6 series for about 45 minutes and it is a MUCH smoother riding bike than the Roubaix. But it also feels more muted/isolated during spirited riding.


+100 to Dunbar's post. Especially now that I put the CG-R on the SL4, here are my initial impressions.

First, I am going to just have to put/fit some shark teeth decal/graphic on that silly looking profile. 

Quick sub division ride report:

Some nasty pavement in the old section on my street. Huge section of squares of pavement and all cracked up. Good test for worse than chipseal surfaces.

And aimed at some 4-5" chuck holes too. 90lb air 27mm Paves.

I should Mention the removed post is a Pave, the previous best Spesh zertz carbon post. I only rode the orig carbon post on one short ride with the original seat which was sticky, MEH.

Broken road; somewhat noticeable improvement akin to lower pressure in tires, maybe a bit more than that...

Chuck holes: Major improvement.

Overall the front of the bike feels harsher and more stiff. Shows the back end is buffered more. But nothing like the difference on the Domane fr/rear diff. [deal breaker for me, YMMV]

Maybe a good comparison might be riding with 60-70 lb of air in the back with a 30-32mm tire without the mush/squirm and/or pinch risk.

I had no sense of suspension, but let me get some miles on it before I call that a final word regarding that. When I used to use a USE susp post on my fixed [all I had would fte the frame] I got some bounce earlier than I liked. Again YMMV/FWIW

EDIT; did a few hour ride, the CG-R really disappears under you.
Helps for sure, more of takes the edge off unless you hit a crater. Then it move more and help a lot more. No sense of movement to me, and I tried a few 120 RPM seated spins and didn't hop or go into orbit anymore than usual.

It is still a stiff machine IMO, Very stiff I would say. My 05 is a total cush machine by comparison. But I get tired early on it if I push over 20 for an entire long ride. My Scott is more conducive for that, I am just not as bushed after a 4+ hour with a lot of hard efforts.

Love the bike, but again, not the comfort ride the pre SL4 is. I test rode a SL2 a few years back when I worked at a Spesh LBS [2011-2] and the deal for LBS employees was awesome but did not wind up buying then. It was too flexy to me [perceived], never rode a SL3, hear stiffer than SL2. But going from memory, such as it is. I was also 230 then, I am around 210 now.

I just gotta sort out the full run cable housing banging inside the down tube. Brake and rear DR are full runs on mine for what ever reason. I think the LBS did that...


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Anyone else with one of these SL4s with Hollowteck II 24mm crank axle with the Spesh supplied BB30 Adapters in this thread.

Annoying tones coming from this thing. All three HTII cranks I have tried. Have to suspect the adapters. But I think I got it quieted after several crank swaps and R&Rs.

Trying not to spend on the Praxis BB, rather put the 85.00 towards some 30mm axle cranks hoping I don't get there too too soon.

Anyone else with these adapters, the stock supplied with the bike if it has HTII cranks on it ?


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

robt57 said:


> Anyone else with these adapters, the stock supplied with the bike if it has HTII cranks on it ?


Don't bother with those adapters. I went through two sets in 4-5 months and they both started creaking/crackling. The Praxis adapter has been silent for ~2500 miles now.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Dunbar said:


> Don't bother with those adapters. I went through two sets in 4-5 months and they both started creaking/crackling. The Praxis adapter has been silent for ~2500 miles now.



Are you using the same cranks, but with the praxis? HT-II ?

Doesn't it make sense to just use a 30mm spindle Crankset ?


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

robt57 said:


> Are you using the same cranks, but with the praxis? HT-II ?
> 
> Doesn't it make sense to just use a 30mm spindle Crankset ?


Yes, a 5700 crank. I'm about to install a complete 5800 group on the bike. I already had my Shimano crank so the Praxis BB was by far the cheaper option.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Dunbar said:


> Don't bother with those adapters. I went through two sets in 4-5 months and they both started creaking/crackling. The Praxis adapter has been silent for ~2500 miles now.


Never heard a single good thing about adapters but have put Praxis bottom bracket on my 2014 Roubaix and 2015 Tarmac and both are smooth and silent.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Dunbar said:


> Yes, a 5700 crank. I'm about to install a complete 5800 group on the bike. I already had my Shimano crank so the Praxis BB was by far the cheaper option.



Thanks, I did one ride with the Sora cranks and heard some pops, slight and not loud. Put the 7800 39/53 on, no noise, but just two rides. Now 6750 compact. No noise until about 60 miles later. Then it got loud and annoying.

What I just did in the shop. Pulled the crank and cleaned and greased the adapters and the axle. I also put a small O-Ring on the axle against the spider. Installed and took for a ride and could not get a sound out of them. Will see in 50+miles.

I want to get new cranks eventually. So if it would only stay quiet until then I will get some OSBB and not HTII. I just have so much 10 speed groupo parts around. Main reason I got the Sora SL4 and parked a 500 mile 7800 groupo on it after one or two rides


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Well just did a short 15 mile with the wife, she is not feeling to well, thus the short ride.

Ahh, the o-ring... so far so good, not a peep. And the bubble wrap I stuffed in around the cable housings through the window under the BB got rid of the cable housing taps on the inside of the down tube. Nearly as maddening as the BB adapter snap crackle and pops!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Update:

I asked to LBS to address the heel strike issue on the rear BB7 caliper.
My foot actually caught on the adjustment wheel a few times. I had put a piece of gorilla tape so the center bolt on the BB7 would not cut my shoe, I asked how BB7s got on there as I saw NO place is any SPesh lit that showed BB7s.

They ordered TRP Sypres, but seem to have trouble getting them in. So ordered the SLC. They asked me to pay a small difference of 45.00, reasonable to me, considering they installed and had to replace rear cable, internal too. And I had just put new tape on the night before with a double wrap with green and black, and they put it back on properly on the side they had to remove to replace the cable. Multiple Thumbs up for River City Bicycles PDX IMO.

I am sure if I had paid full price for the bike and not 25% off at the Outlet they would have eaten it.

TRPs look better, heel clearance issue negated. Dual piston modulate noticeably better than the BB7 SLs they pulled. Seem to stop a bit better thus far. Rotors had some miles, not sure about pads, but they should only get better, right? 

When I saw the TRPs look better, they do not look like a MTN caliper on a road bike, but rather slim and clean lines. Even though the BB7s ARE road calipers, road level pull etc. About same weight I believe FWIW.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Longer ride, the TRP SLC are better period. The pads are not as worn in as the Avids, but when hot they feel the same where the Avids change feel. Pad compound, although the TRP spec is sintered/organic is what I googled is true.


Note: The base 2015 disc Roubaix appears to both have the CG-R post AND the TRP Sryre brakes, but not the SLC version. Also I noticed FWIW the upper line Roubaix disc models have 140mm discs, Shimano brake setup. Where the base has 160mm rotors with the TRPs.

With the 160mm rotors the TRP have adapters. None on the 140mm setups it seems. 


Also: O-ring on the cranks between the spider side and BB adapter is keeping thing quiet. I consider the bike dialed in now, it sure was not out the LBS door I can say...
I wonder if I went to 140mm and pulled the adapters, which seem to be spacers really. If I'd loose brake force, which is currently totally strong and powerful. Modulation is also excellent, better IMO than the BB7s to me.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

O-Ring seems to be keeping this quiet. 4 ride later, longer etc.

Riding next to a Tarmac today in a group. I heard that pop sound. I told him I know that sound.  His bike did not have adapters or a HT-II crankset. A FSA Compact presumably BB30 of some iteration. 

I am pretty sure the discs averted me from a pile up today. The guy behind me went by on the right skidding and I stopped with zilch drama. The guy in front of me ran into the guy up front that decided a left was just passed and still tried to make one with no clue to the pace line. Thank God we were doing like 16ish at the time. 

Brakes felt and modulated incredibly with no lockup/skidding. It may also have to do with the fact that I used to ride motocross for years, and a lot of motorcycle experience in general for 45 years. And MTM bike experience as well. 

I have been in that situation with my 7800 D/A on my Scott and have locked up the front in similar situation recently. Back wheel no skid, it may have been in the air. I stayed on somehow.


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## Soonerinfrisco (May 30, 2006)

Just revisited the thread and saw the concerns over BB creaks. For me, and I am a big guy at 260lbs or so, the only sound that I have heard was from the wheelset needing retensioning. Got that done on my 3month check up. It is a very quiet bike actually. Some chatter on rougher pavement but that's about it. Noticed that the 15s come with the CG. I will probably add that at some point, maybe Christmas present. With the 12-25 cassette, its almost like having an automatic transmission, very easy to dial in your spin groove.


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