# So what chance Schlecks on Campy in 2011?



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

With all the rumours flying around, I thought I'd start another one. 

With the Schlecks forming their own team and Speciali(z)ed sponsoring Contador, the road is clear for Campy and the Schlecks to announce that due to dissatisfaction with the performance of Sram equipment the Schlecks have chosen to ride Campagnolo.

If I was their marketing guy I'd seek to announce it while chaingate is still fresh in the collective memory.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I wouldn't be surprised.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

why not Shimano? I think they have enough money to throw at the schlecks.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Get past chaingate. Maybe he should look for a sponsor that will allow him not to lose 42 seconds in a prolouge time trial. That is what cost him the race.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

someone who makes good TT bikes


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Campy? They still make that?


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

SRAM must have an excellent sponsorship program. If I were given the opportunity to use any 3 I cant say that SRAM would be top of the list.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> someone who makes good TT bikes


They're going to need more than a good TT bike is the Schlecks don't want to lose time to Contador.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Mark Kelly said:


> With all the rumours flying around, I thought I'd start another one.
> 
> With the Schlecks forming their own team and Speciali(z)ed sponsoring Contador, the road is clear for Campy and the Schlecks to announce that due to dissatisfaction with the performance of Sram equipment the Schlecks have chosen to ride Campagnolo.
> 
> If I was their marketing guy I'd seek to announce it while chaingate is still fresh in the collective memory.


Even if SRAM caused the problem I doubt he would say so publicly the industry is too small and you run into the same people over and over. Also other companies would see that and while they might work with him cause hes a top riders that is not considered a good way to handle things. 

Plus blaming the gear is pointless. Someone put that stuff on the bike and maintained it (Team Mechanic) and someone (Andy) decided to shift cross geared you can't just say the group is defective (considering the market share) and have any crediabilty.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Salsa_Lover said:


> someone who makes good TT bikes


Perhaps the new Gurber assist line of TT bikes would do the trick for him.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> Even if SRAM caused the problem I doubt he would say so publicly the industry is too small and you run into the same people over and over. Also other companies would see that and while they might work with him cause hes a top riders that is not considered a good way to handle things.
> 
> Plus blaming the gear is pointless. Someone put that stuff on the bike and maintained it (Team Mechanic) and someone (Andy) decided to shift cross geared you can't just say the group is defective (considering the market share) and have and crediabilty.


I would agree. Crap happens, stuff breaks, etc. On the other hand, one would assume if you were making an attack on a mountain stage, you'd be in your small ring before making the move.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

*"No, no, no, nobody's fault!"*



spade2you said:


> I would agree. Crap happens, stuff breaks, etc. On the other hand, one would assume if you were making an attack on a mountain stage, you'd be in your small ring before making the move.


+1 Agree - I don't think it was either equipment failure or user error - I tend to agree with SRAM on this one - just a bad combination of circumstances occurring at a really bad time - sheet happens!

I think Team Schleck will go with whoever offers the biggest bucks, as I don't really believe there is such a huge performance difference in the high-end stuff as many on this forum like to believe.

I'd be more interested in new or absent bike companies getting into sponsorships if they can afford to do so - I've seen enough Treks, Cannondales, Specialized and Cervelos on television to last me a lifetime.

BTW: Does Trek make a good TT bike?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Ridley makes a good TT bike and they are Belgian, so close to Luxembourg

I'd like to see Andy on a Dean.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

*Campy Commentary*



Coolhand said:


> Campy? They still make that?


You're a funny man, Coolhand!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

LostViking said:


> +1 Agree - I don't think it was either equipment failure or user error - I tend to agree with SRAM on this one - just a bad combination of circumstances occurring at a really bad time - sheet happens!
> 
> I think Team Schleck will go with whoever offers the biggest bucks, as I don't really believe there is such a huge performance difference in the high-end stuff as many on this forum like to believe.
> 
> ...


Given the UCI weight restrictions and interest in removing certain aerodynamic advantages, I don't really think any companies/components can offer the pros a distinct advantage over another. Sure, I'd like to see the UCI drop the weight limit a tad (perhaps the average amount that most teams are having to add) and allow TT bikes more technological development.

I think almost every year you'll see some of the less known companies endorse a team for a couple years. Any more, you basically need to have a winning team for the endorsements to really matter, which is why a company like Bianchi will tend to go all out every couple of years or so. I could definitely see Campy trying to be a little more aggressive in 2011.


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## Doctor Who (Feb 22, 2005)

Confirmed: they're racing on Microshift as part of a sponsorship deal with Nashbar.


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

32and3cross said:


> Even if SRAM caused the problem I doubt he would say so publicly the industry is too small and you run into the same people over and over. Also other companies would see that and while they might work with him cause hes a top riders that is not considered a good way to handle things.
> 
> Plus blaming the gear is pointless. Someone put that stuff on the bike and maintained it (Team Mechanic) and *someone (Andy) decided to shift cross geared* you can't just say the group is defective (considering the market share) and have any crediabilty.


I haven't seen or read much about chaingate, but this was my question: If Schleck got delayed by his own poor action, why is there a scandal? 

I understand the honor in waiting for a competitor who crashed, even if you're not sure at the time who caused the crash, but a miss-shift is a competitve failure.


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## Sylint (Jul 27, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Ridley makes a good TT bike and they are Belgian, so close to Luxembourg
> 
> I'd like to see Andy on a Dean.


How long is Ridley tied in with Katusha?


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## jlgoodin78 (Dec 13, 2007)

*Sram Rocks*



carbonLORD said:


> SRAM must have an excellent sponsorship program. If I were given the opportunity to use any 3 I cant say that SRAM would be top of the list.


I was running Dura Ace and switched to Sram Force. Now I'm running Sram on both road bikes and my cross bike. I was hesitant at first, but it's amazing stuff. The chain throw Andy had could have happened with any of the big 3. There's a reason that so many teams are running Sram......the quality. And the sponsorship helps as well.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> I'd like to see Andy on a Dean.


Based on Dean's delivery history you want to see him back in the peloton sometime around 2045?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

LostViking said:


> You're a funny man, Coolhand!


I try.  

Campy after the first issue of Record 10 (starting with the QS debacle, and on from there) looks like a dying brand barely propped up by an aging user base and declining numbers, especially OEM. 

From a former Campy guy its sad, but Campy is 3rd and fading fast. Shimano and SRAM are _killing_ them.


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## Fluidprawn (Jul 8, 2010)

I'd love to see the new Schleck team on Focus bikes (German made). I'm pretty sure the sponsorship deal with team MIlram has expired.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

*Clearly it was SRAM that caused the problem with AS*

 

Team Milram – SRAM RED
Team Saxo Bank – SRAM RED 
Footon-Servetto – SRAM RED
AG2R La Mondiale – SRAM RED
Astana – SRAM RED (Hello....can you say "Contador"?)
Team RadioShack – SRAM RED
Cervelo Test Team – SRAM RED

I race Shimano on mtb and Sram on road...it is all incredible in my book. Campy is excellent too. All 3 at high end level are equally great...


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## ArkRider (Jul 27, 2007)

Mark Kelly said:


> With all the rumours flying around, I thought I'd start another one.
> 
> With the Schlecks forming their own team and Speciali(z)ed sponsoring Contador, the road is clear for Campy and the Schlecks to announce that due to dissatisfaction with the performance of Sram equipment the Schlecks have chosen to ride Campagnolo.
> 
> If I was their marketing guy I'd seek to announce it while chaingate is still fresh in the collective memory.


Sounds like a really good way to have someone embarrass the crud out of you. Trying to start a publicity war when the rider who beat you was also on the same gruppo and no shortage of pros using the same gruppo with no problems. What, you don't think SRAM would be willing to make a response?

Do you also think it would be a good idea to go to the zoo, jump into a cage and punch a gorilla in the face?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

> - A pretty spot-on "open letter" at Embrocation. The only inaccurate assumption is that Campy cares about its US business. What would blow away most Americans is in what low regard the old-line Italian brands hold the US market. Campy's OE spec in the US is literally nil (the same most definitely does not hold true in Europe), which is an easy way of gauging Campy's mental commitment to the US marketplace


http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/whats-new/pronunciation-guide.378.html

open letter here:

http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/online/campagnolo


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/whats-new/pronunciation-guide.378.html
> 
> open letter here:
> 
> http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/online/campagnolo


from your link 

"Ditch the retro angle. Maybe it works in Europe but it doesn’t work here. None of your would-be customers cares about the history. "

I thought the only reason some snob american cyclists wanted to go campy was exactly because of the retro angle.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Salsa_Lover said:


> from your link
> 
> "Ditch the retro angle. Maybe it works in Europe but it doesn’t work here. None of your would-be customers cares about the history. "
> 
> I thought the only reason some snob american cyclists wanted to go campy was exactly because of the retro angle.


Maybe, but a 40-60 year old user base isn't sustainable. Especially seeing many of the remaining Campy guys I know are either happy with their older 10 speed Groupos or don't buy much new gear. Worse, all the Masters racers I know seem to be on Shimano or SRAM too. As a SRAM guy, if I had a ton of money to drop on a group it wouldn't be Super Record, it would be Shimano Di2. But seeing cost, customer service, weight and rebuild ability are issues- its SRAM for me.


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> Team Milram – SRAM RED
> Team Saxo Bank – SRAM RED
> Footon-Servetto – SRAM RED
> AG2R La Mondiale – SRAM RED
> ...


all the top teams on the "podium gruppo"


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

all that it proves is that SRAM and Specialized are puting serious coin on sponsoring.

is that good or bad ?


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> all that it proves is that SRAM and Specialized are puting serious coin on sponsoring.
> 
> is that good or bad ?


always a good thing.

motivation to ride & win races has never been better.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

jermso said:


> always a good thing.
> 
> motivation to ride & win races has never been better.


Is it? Why is it good that I have to pay more for my bike so Cancellara gets a higher salary?


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

den bakker said:


> Is it? Why is it good that I have to pay more for my bike so Cancellara gets a higher salary?


coz pro riders are just not paid enough.

plus u dun have to ride what fabian rides!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

jermso said:


> coz pro riders are just not paid enough.
> 
> plus u dun have to ride what fabian rides!


What is enough?
So I won't consider specialized, how is that a good thing?


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

den bakker said:


> What is enough?
> So I won't consider specialized, how is that a good thing?


enough? not even close.

maybe u should look at other sports & compare the filth they pay out.

the time & gruelling effort spent in the saddle & training, no wonder it's a poor man's sport.

the good thing is u dun have to consider specialized and get yourself a nice rideable frame with other cheaper brands.

and when u're riding, it's ALWAYS a good thang


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/whats-new/pronunciation-guide.378.html
> 
> That rebuttal comment is exactly why I like Campy, most Americans are like sheep... I'm happy to be different from alot of them.
> 
> I've tried/used them all and you can't go wrong with any of the high end groups. The Schlecks will use whatever company ponies up the most cash for their new team.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

den bakker said:


> What is enough?
> So I won't consider specialized, how is that a good thing?


When you go to the ball game you have to pay more for the ticket so that the players can get paid. You have to pay more for your tennis shoes and beer for the same reason! It's hard to think of a product that we use that doesn't spend money on advertising. None of these companies spend a dollar more than they think is necessary to get the market share that presents the best business model.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> When you go to the ball game you have to pay more for the ticket so that the players can get paid. You have to pay more for your tennis shoes and beer for the same reason! It's hard to think of a product that we use that doesn't spend money on advertising. None of these companies spend a dollar more than they think is necessary to get the market share that presents the best business model.


winner! dead on. I switched from Dura Ace to Campy Record and am now on Sram Red. I don't plan on ever going back to Campy. No reason to cost-wise. For demographic sake, I'm 29 and live in Colorado.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Fluidprawn said:


> I'd love to see the new Schleck team on Focus bikes (German made). I'm pretty sure the sponsorship deal with team MIlram has expired.


Focus frames are NOT made in Germany.


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## rhauft (Aug 8, 2006)

wiz525 said:


> I don't plan on ever going back to Campy. No reason to cost-wise. For demographic sake, I'm 29 and live in Colorado.


51, Masters Cat 2 - 30yrs+ race resume

SunTour>Campy>Shimano>Campy>SRAM

Always build my own bikes myself. Build it, break it, fix it myself.

Btw, never lost a sprint due to 'chaingate'.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

wiz525 said:


> winner! dead on. I switched from Dura Ace to Campy Record and am now on Sram Red. I don't plan on ever going back to Campy. No reason to cost-wise. For demographic sake, I'm 29 and live in Colorado.


seeing your progression I have to ask what's next ? Forté from Performance ?


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> When you go to the ball game you have to pay more for the ticket so that the players can get paid. You have to pay more for your tennis shoes and beer for the same reason! It's hard to think of a product that we use that doesn't spend money on advertising. None of these companies spend a dollar more than they think is necessary to get the market share that presents the best business model.


spot on


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

Salsa_Lover said:


> seeing your progression I have to ask what's next ? Forté from Performance ?


ha! maybe i'll give it a try. by some people's opinions, it might out-do Sram!

for the record, i really like campy, much more than Shimano, but i haven't been on the new Shimano stuff. there are a lot of times I miss the thumb shifting of campy, but it doesn't outweigh the costs associated with campy in the states. (and campy can't be found/serviced at every lbs...)


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## Fluidprawn (Jul 8, 2010)

Richard said:


> Focus frames are NOT made in Germany.


Are you sure about this?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Fluidprawn said:


> Are you sure about this?



only some are


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> Maybe, but a 40-60 year old user base isn't sustainable. Especially seeing many of the remaining Campy guys I know are either happy with their older 10 speed Groupos or don't buy much new gear. Worse, all the Masters racers I know seem to be on Shimano or SRAM too. As a SRAM guy, if I had a ton of money to drop on a group it wouldn't be Super Record, it would be Shimano Di2. But seeing cost, customer service, weight and rebuild ability are issues- its SRAM for me.


+ Lance uses (used) it.
________
TatysXXX live


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Fluidprawn said:


> Are you sure about this?


Yes. Carefully read Performance's "propaganda" in their latest mail-out. "Focus" is a German company. Period. These "handmade" bikes are the latest in "blah-blah-blah" design and engineering. I don't mean to denigrate Focus as even the top-of-the-line Pinarellos are made in Taiwan. As are are probably 80% of the bikes ridden in this year's TDF.

We have a Performance "STORE" (as opposed to a bicycle shop) two doors over from us and I can guarantee based upon first hand observation (a Focus Izalco shipping box was labelled "Made in Taiwan") that they are not "made in Germany!"

It just pisses me off that Performance "worded" that mailer entry (and I get 'em all) to infer that Focus was made in Germany. They didn't outright say it, but they certainly wanted to "infer" it. Even "Made in America" Cannondale has gone completely to the Far East.

If you want a carbon frame not made in Asia, buy a Look (made in Tunisia), a Time actually made in France and therefore pricing themselves out of the market, a "C" whatever Colnago (possibly excluding anything but "top of the line"), a lugged steel Cinelli or DeRosa, (not to mention an assload of great American custom steel/titanium/aluminum builders) are not made in Asia.

But if you want an American made carbon bike (other than a custom from Calfee or Serotta to name a few), a Trek "6 Series" is your only option as even the "5 Series" has gone to Asia for 2011.

Bottom line - it's not where it's made, it's how it's made.

And to reiterate, Performance really pisses me off with their "add copy" that tried to to imply that Focus was made in Germany.


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

Richard said:


> If you want a carbon frame not made in Asia, buy a Look (made in Tunisia)


Look 566 in made in taiwan.

ditto on Focus. made in taiwan or china.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

rubbersoul said:


> + Lance uses (used) it.


Meh. More impressed with what my teammates use than some random Pro. They get paid to ride the highest bidders stuff (with exceptions of course).


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

jermso said:


> Look 566 in made in taiwan.
> 
> ditto on Focus. made in taiwan or china.


If its made in Taiwan, then I have no concerns- they have world class facilities there. Some of the mainland stuff can be dodgy though.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

CLEARLY SAYS MADE IN GERMANY. ARE THEY LYING?? CHECK LINK AND LOOK AT THE BOXES THAT SHOW "FEATURES".


http://www.focus-bikes.com/us/en_us/bikes/bikes-2010/category/race/model/izalco-team-milram-2.html

The only reason that I care is because I have been considering this as my next bike.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

rydbyk said:


> CLEARLY SAYS MADE IN GERMANY. ARE THEY LYING?? CHECK LINK AND LOOK AT THE BOXES THAT SHOW "FEATURES".
> 
> 
> http://www.focus-bikes.com/us/en_us/bikes/bikes-2010/category/race/model/izalco-team-milram-2.html
> ...


I don't doubt that Focus made a limited run of frames for Milram and have a handful for sale to the unwashed masses. But the "Made in (pick your European country)" is still somewhat dodgy. Only Switzerland owns the "Made in Switzerland" trademark and rigorously enforces it. For years Italian bicycle companies could import a bare frame from Asia, paint it and assemble it in Italy and "legally" lable it "Made in Italy."

Cervelo has a limited run of U.S. made frames, but the vast majority of their production comes from China.

Look builds the 595 and 585 series in the plant they built in Tunisia, but yes, a lot of their production now comes from Taiwan.

The head mucky-muck of Dorel (the Canadian holding company which now owns Cannondale, along with Schwinn, GT, etc.) was quoted in Bicycle Retailer that labor costs in the U.S. facilities that made Cannondales were 28 times higher than China. 28 TIMES!

But don't you worry. If the multinational corporations and their lackeys in Washington have their way, labor costs in the U.S. will soon be on par with the rest of the Third World. And then you can buy (assuming you can afford it) lots of "Made in America" crap.

End of rant.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Richard said:


> I don't doubt that Focus made a limited run of frames for Milram and have a handful for sale to the unwashed masses. But the "Made in (pick your European country)" is still somewhat dodgy. Only Switzerland owns the "Made in Switzerland" trademark and rigorously enforces it. For years Italian bicycle companies could import a bare frame from Asia, paint it and assemble it in Italy and "legally" lable it "Made in Italy."
> 
> Cervelo has a limited run of U.S. made frames, but the vast majority of their production comes from China.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should visit our *Politics Only* forum and share your views, I am sure the posters there would love to discuss this with you. In the meanwhile, let's keep this one on topic.


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## Fluidprawn (Jul 8, 2010)

So.. I would like to see the new Schleck team ride for a German based company that may or may not make their bikes in Germany.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Fluidprawn said:


> So.. I would like to see the new Schleck team ride for a German based company that may or may not make their bikes in Germany.


doubt they have deep enough pockets.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

rydbyk said:


> CLEARLY SAYS MADE IN GERMANY. ARE THEY LYING?? CHECK LINK AND LOOK AT THE BOXES THAT SHOW "FEATURES".
> 
> 
> http://www.focus-bikes.com/us/en_us/bikes/bikes-2010/category/race/model/izalco-team-milram-2.html
> ...


The "Made in Germany" box is a link that takes you to a page that says: 

"The entire production and marketing take place in Cloppenburg. Germany is known for quality and precision manufacturing worldwide." 

As to what "production" exactly entails, I leave that to you. The lower-end bikes on their site don't have the "Made in Germany" designation.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

jptaylorsg said:


> The "Made in Germany" box is a link that takes you to a page that says:
> 
> "The entire production and marketing take place in Cloppenburg. Germany is known for quality and precision manufacturing worldwide."
> 
> As to what "production" exactly entails, I leave that to you. The lower-end bikes on their site don't have the "Made in Germany" designation.


Geez...they should have a law in place that forces the bike shops to divulge exactly where the frame is MADE. Some people get suckered into buying a bike that is "made in Italy or France or Germany."

People buy bikes based on this false advertising. Lame-o. It is "status" to have a bike that is not made in China, for example....not necessarily function/performance always...


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

if it's carbon, i want it made in taiwan where the best carbon factories are.

period.


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## BikeFixer (May 19, 2009)

jermso said:


> if it's carbon, i want it made in taiwan where the best carbon factories are.
> 
> period.



Yep :thumbsup:


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

BikeFixer said:


> Yep :thumbsup:


Doesn't Cannondale make the "Made in USA" claim for a carbon frame? It would be nice to support our markets a bit if the quality is there. I think that the supersix, possibly others...are made in the USA.

Don't know much about C-dale today, but I did like the ride quality of the supersix during test rides...


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

The explanation I've heard is that under US law you can claim "made in X" if more than 60% of the <b>value</b> of manufacturing process is done in country X.

This would mean that if you were, say, a famous Italian manufacturer you could have your frames made entirely in China, shipped nude to you in Italy where you give them a quick coat of paint, jack the price by 150% and put "Fabrizio in Italia" stickers on them.

Never mind the quality, feel the width.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Mark Kelly said:


> The explanation I've heard is that under US law you can claim "made in X" if more than 60% of the <b>value</b> of manufacturing process is done in country X.
> 
> This would mean that if you were, say, a famous Italian manufacturer you could have your frames made entirely in China, shipped nude to you in Italy where you give them a quick coat of paint, jack the price by 150% and put "Fabrizio in Italia" stickers on them.
> 
> Never mind the quality, feel the width.



Value. Interesting news. I wish there was a way to find out which frames are made entirely where. I am assuming that high end Colnagos, for example, are 100% Italian. Also, I get that amazing products are made elsewhere and it doesn't matter THAT much according to many here on rbr..


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## dhtucker4 (Jul 7, 2004)

After the debacle a couple of years ago in a classic, Cancellera's (aka Spartacus) chain broke on a steep cobbled hill, he had to wait for the whole peloton to go by and wait for his team car. Most people I know that have SRAM Red use a Dura Ace, KMC, or Wippermann chain. And the guys are nowhere near the power output of a pro cyclist. Plus, the Red cassette is so fragile, they use a Force or Dura Ace cassette.

Contador better take his mechanic from Astana to Riis's new team, if he knows what's good for him.

I think Frank Schleck's injury was what spelled the doom for Andy Schleck's chances of this year's tour. Plus, Andy cannot time trial at that well, and neither can Samuel Sanchez (he lost 3rd place because of his awful TT performance).


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