# Destined to be a crit rider?



## orange_bikes (Jun 6, 2007)

Hi Folks,

I've just started racing this season and have a question about specialization. I've had good results in Cat 4 crits and am about to move to the 3s. However, I'm getting absolutely killed in the few road races I've done. I'm worried it will get even worse in the 3s so I'm hesitant to move up. I don't want to dread road races.

I'm 35, 5'11", 170-175, ~10% body fat. In a recent road race I held 300w for an hour on a long climb, so I'd guestimate my FTP to be about that plus or minus 10-20w? I'm training at a computrainer cycling gym and have done some sort of lactate test, but can't relate the numbers and jargon (what is OBLA???) to the stuff you guys discuss here. I've clearly got 10-15lbs to lose if I really want to get serious. 

My athletic background is swimming, but that was years ago in college. As such, I'm used to 1-2 minute all out efforts and not 3.5 hour sufferfests. Crits have been a natural thing for me as its 40 minutes of moderate effort followed by 2 minutes of hammering. I've got plenty of power and fitness to stay in the field and move up for the finish. No wins yet but I've been on or near the podium fairly consistently. Unfortunately, I don't have a 1500w sprint (best I've seen is 1200w) so I've started my sprints a bit earlier (3-400 meters instead of 1-200) in hopes of getting a gap and then holding on. That seems to be working reasonably well and I hope to get a win at some point.

Sorry for the long winded intro, but am I genetically destined to be a crit guy or do I just need to lose weight, train harder, and deal with pain better to become a decent road racer?

Thanks for any insights!


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

You can be anything you want to be at a local level. You just have to train for it. Don't put yourself into any particular category of racer yet. You won't know for at least 2 seasons what you can do.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

what Sherpa said.

plus... where do you live that you get to do 3.5 hour RR's as a cat 4?


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## orange_bikes (Jun 6, 2007)

Creakyknees said:


> where do you live that you get to do 3.5 hour RR's as a cat 4?


Thanks guys. I've done two Cat 4 road races and both were really hilly. Hopefully there will be some courses that are a bit flatter later in the season.  

I live in N. California - Mt. Hamilton Classic last weekend, it was brutal. I got dropped in the first 1/4 mile of the climb, rode my own pace for the rest of the hill and passed a bunch of the guys who tried to go with the early aggressors. Caught a decent group on the back side of the climb and rotated well to the end. Top 20, but still felt pretty demoralized by the drubbing I took on the climb. I've ridden it plenty of times, but never in a race. Totally different world!


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

orange_bikes said:


> Thanks guys. I've done two Cat 4 road races and both were really hilly. Hopefully there will be some courses that are a bit flatter later in the season.
> 
> I live in N. California - Mt. Hamilton Classic last weekend, it was brutal.


We are lucky in NorCal! But Mt. Ham. is the exception, really. Even the other "climbers' races" have much shorter segments of unbroken climbing.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

orange_bikes said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I've just started racing this season and have a question about specialization. I've had good results in Cat 4 crits and am about to move to the 3s. However, I'm getting absolutely killed in the few road races I've done. I'm worried it will get even worse in the 3s so I'm hesitant to move up. I don't want to dread road races.
> 
> ...


Your sustainable power to weight ratio is what's making it tough on a hilly course like that where the lighter fit guys will always make life hard.

Essentially you'll need to improve on that through good training. An improved power output is the main thing to focus on and it will help you a stack in crits anyway.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Crits are fun, why not specialize in them. 

Personally I have a lot more respect for the bike skills needed to race at a very high level for Crits, CX and track. 

And of course you can race crits almost every weekend, sometimes two or three of them every weekend.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

heathb said:


> Crits are fun, why not specialize in them.
> 
> Personally I have a lot more respect for the bike skills needed to race at a very high level for Crits, CX and track.
> 
> And of course you can race crits almost every weekend, sometimes two or three of them every weekend.



He's in NorCal, so he can race a ton of road races, too (and many weekends he can race a crit and a road race). I don't know about others, but I find road races to be much more rewarding (even though I've had some success in crits). By all means, though, a complete racer does hone bike-handling skills in crits (one reason I roll my eyes at the advice I've seen here that Cat 5s should avoid crits---learning those skills doesn't get easier when the pace picks up).


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

agreed. as a generalization, because Cat 5's tend to give each other wider berths, Cat 5 crits are often a pretty good way to ease into crits. I think 4's and 3's who believe that they are more skilled than they are (or otherwise have the legs but not the skills) are scarier.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Your sustainable power to weight ratio is what's making it tough on a hilly course like that where the lighter fit guys will always make life hard.
> 
> Essentially you'll need to improve on that through good training. An improved power output is the main thing to focus on and it will help you a stack in crits anyway.


Although I'm in no way doubting your conclusion (a guy gets knocked off on long climbs, then yes, he needs to improve his sustainable power-to-weight ratio), in re-reading his post, I see that his demonstrated 60 minute threshold is about 3.8 watts/kilo. I would have thought that was a reasonable number for a cat. 4, and in comparing it to "the chart" that I see in WKO+ and reproduced from place to place (like here), I see it is around the border between cat. 4 and cat. 3. Although I know a chart is just a chart, I thought this was interesting.


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## orange_bikes (Jun 6, 2007)

Thanks everyone. I'll keep at the road races for sure. Did another one last weekend that was more my style. Shorter climbs (<10mins) so I was able to stay in the front group. I was supporting another guy on my team and pulled along the flats and dropped him off at the base of the finishing climb. I was happy to pedal softly up that one!


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

It never occurs to some people that you can't learn racing skills on the fly. When I first started I spent an hour training for the crit and an hour each night drilling corners going faster and faster until I could do them without hesitation or touching the brake. 

I've long thought that there should be a tough skills test that is given to each rider before they're allowed to enter their first race, if you can't pass it you don't race.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Undecided said:


> Although I'm in no way doubting your conclusion (a guy gets knocked off on long climbs, then yes, he needs to improve his sustainable power-to-weight ratio), in re-reading his post, I see that his demonstrated 60 minute threshold is about 3.8 watts/kilo. I would have thought that was a reasonable number for a cat. 4, and in comparing it to "the chart" that I see in WKO+ and reproduced from place to place (like here), I see it is around the border between cat. 4 and cat. 3. Although I know a chart is just a chart, I thought this was interesting.


He's in NorCal. I'm a strong cat3 in the midwest and I got to ride with a couple cat3's from NorCal...one of whom JUST upgrade to cat3. He toyed with my ass on Mt. Hamilton like I just started riding my bike. It's a much higher caliber of riding out there.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

heathb said:


> It never occurs to some people that you can't learn racing skills on the fly. When I first started I spent an hour training for the crit and an hour each night drilling corners going faster and faster until I could do them without hesitation or touching the brake.
> 
> I've long thought that there should be a tough skills test that is given to each rider before they're allowed to enter their first race, if you can't pass it you don't race.


That would be golden.

OBLA = onset of blood lactate accumulation. We can't interpret your results unless you post them.

Other than that, OP, don't count yourself out. Until you hit the P/1/2 field, you aren't anything. A "sprinter" in a cat3 field can be dominated in a P/1/2 field by real sprinters. A breakaway/TT rider will be dropped in a breakaway, and a "climber" will be dropped on the climbs in that same field. Don't think you should specialize in _anything _until you are actually fast.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

what did you do for cornering practice? I was going to do some this morning, but I couldn't think of where to go. You need a clear view of the turn for safety's sake, which eliminates most streets. How big a parking lot do you need? 
I could use some turning practice. I'm not terrible, but I'm not good.


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## orange_bikes (Jun 6, 2007)

Thanks Nitro. I've got no interest in getting to P/1/2, I'm scared enough by the looming upgrade to Cat 3. The road races get much longer in the 3s, and on top of that, the Masters 1/2/3 fields around here are insanely fast. 

I'm doing another lactate test tomorrow and will post some of the results then.

Again, thanks for all the comments guys, keep 'em coming!


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## orange_bikes (Jun 6, 2007)

OK, I did another Lactate Test this week. 4 minute "stages" starting at 100w. I was able to complete 8 stages, finishing with 4 minutes at 380w before cracking.

Lactate was measured at 1mMol/L thru the first 16 minutes (100-220w) and then progressed to 2.0 mMol/L at 260w, 4.4 @ 300w, 8.9 @ 340w, and 15.8 @ 380w. They pegged my "OBLA" at 325w. I'm still not totally sure how to relate all this to the "LT" and "FTP" measurements that get talked about here...


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

bill said:


> what did you do for cornering practice? I was going to do some this morning, but I couldn't think of where to go. You need a clear view of the turn for safety's sake, which eliminates most streets. How big a parking lot do you need?
> I could use some turning practice. I'm not terrible, but I'm not good.


Empty parking lots are the best place to start. Hopefully some with plenty of lamp posts as markers for tight turns. Find a lot without lots of rocks to catch your wheel if you plan on turning really tight corners. The more limited the space the better. 

I've actually done lots of wrecks in parking lots before seeing how far I could lean over and fast I could take my corners with and without pedaling threw them. It's a good place to get used to hitting the pavement, as opposed to race day. 

And practice with others to get used to riding side by side and in back of them while taking tight corners at full speed. Keeping in mind the guy on the outside is at the most risk from the guy on the inside.


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