# Ran a Stop Sign - Ticketed - Have to Appear - Any Help



## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

So I rolled through a stop sign at 5-10 mph in Falls Church, Virginia. I got a ticket. I can't prepay the fine even if I want to. I called the court and they said I have to appear and the judge will assess the fine at the hearing, which is next Wednesday.

Does anyone have any advice or useful information. I'm curious about whether I might get points on my license, what the fine may be, and what I might be able to do to fight it. The intersection was clear with no approaching pedestrian or car traffic and I approached and entered it at a reasonable speed.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Watch for cops when you do that next time.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

spade2you said:


> Watch for cops when you do that next time.


The cop was hiding out of line of sight.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> So I rolled through a stop sign at 5-10 mph in Falls Church, Virginia. I got a ticket. I can't prepay the fine even if I want to. I called the court and they said I have to appear and the judge will assess the fine at the hearing, which is next Wednesday.
> 
> Does anyone have any advice or useful information. I'm curious about whether I might get points on my license, what the fine may be, and what I might be able to do to fight it. The intersection was clear with no approaching pedestrian or car traffic and I approached and entered it at a reasonable speed.


Next time don't run a stop sign. You won't get points on your license since you weren't driving a motor vehicle. You could try asking the judge if the cop has a dash cam video of you running the stop sign. If not, you may be able to argue that his eyewitness testimony is unreliable.

In the future if you get pulled over again, just exercise your right to remain silent. It doesn't guarantee you'll get out of a ticket, but it gives the cop the least amount of ammo against you.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

I assume you were on your bike?

It sucks, but the fact is that bikes are held to the same standards (and traffic laws) as cars in virtually every state. If you ran that stop sign in your car under identical conditions, you might expect to be ticketed if a cop saw you do it. 

This is one case that reflects the other side of car/bike equality on the road.


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## Birddog (Sep 9, 2004)

If you stood as you passed through the intersection you could maybe claim to have made a "hesitation stop". If you were seated as you rode through you're probably screwed.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

You ran a stop sign. Man up and own it. 

I am not saying I stop all the time but if you get caught you got to man up. 

Either that or walk in and tell the judge to fawk himself. See where that gets you.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm asking for help with regard to the situation I'm facing that exists next Wednesday at 9:30 am. If you can't respond with a reply that is actually helpful and pertinent, please save it. Thanks.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

And another thing.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Thanks, I'll be sure to never frequent this useless forum that is full of trolls ever again.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

Find a lawyer who knows the judge? Have him stand in for you and get a different charge. Running a stop sign on your record can't look good to the insurance companies.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> Thanks, I'll be sure to never frequent this useless forum that is full of trolls ever again.


First of all, you will find people like that in ANY forum. Second of all, did you read my reply? I actually offered advice you can use. I don't guarantee its effectiveness, but it can't hurt to try.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> The intersection was clear with no approaching pedestrian or car traffic and I approached and entered it at a reasonable speed.


Go to the intersection and take photos to show that you can see clearly in both directions. 
Tell the judge you accept responsibility but you did slow down and could tell it was safe in both directions. Then ask for the smallest fine possible.


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## jarbiker (Sep 29, 2009)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I'm asking for help with regard to the situation I'm facing that exists next Wednesday at 9:30 am. If you can't respond with a reply that is actually helpful and pertinent, please save it. Thanks.



Be polite! Take money with you! You ran the stop sign - be prepared to be fined.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Finally, something I can use, thank you tlg.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

Kind of hard to assess fines/points etc. as every state has different rules. Dress nicely, talk politely, get there early, and ask the prosecutor ahead of time if there is any way you can get out with paying a fee and not having the offense go against your driving record. If not then state your case to the judge and simply say something like "I looked both ways, it was clear, I did slow down, so I'm simply asking for leniency your honor". Trying to get clever and question the officer's judgement probably won't work. If your lucky maybe the officer won't show up, and the case will get dismissed.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Go to court, admit to running it, hopefully it was not a busy area and you had great lines of sight (much better than a car) and you were moving at a low rate of speed.

LEO's are sometimes directed to go out and address issues when there is an accident. Last year a what I'll call DUI cyclist was hit crossing the road at 10PM (pulled out into a 4 lane road). The deputies were sent out to warn cyclists, I got popped in the operation. The deputy actually apologized for interrupting our work out, the best part was when the retired guy came out of his house and started hollering "What you guys are pulling over bikes now".


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> Finally, something I can use, thank you tlg.


What was wrong with Sauron's advice?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> The cop was hiding out of line of sight.


Crafty devil. Pay the man for being smart.


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## vetboy (Oct 11, 2005)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I'm asking for help with regard to the situation I'm facing that exists next Wednesday at 9:30 am. If you can't respond with a reply that is actually helpful and pertinent, please save it. Thanks.


And we're the pissy ones


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

ph0enix said:


> What was wrong with Sauron's advice?


Is of zero pertinence to this situation.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

This morning on my way to work, both me and the bike cop ran through the red light. Philly rules!!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I received a ticket for running a stop sign back in my college days. I received the same fine and moving violation on my record as if I were in a car. I decided to obey traffic laws after that and have had no other problems. My advice is to be polite and pay your fine and accept it as a lesson learned.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> Is of zero pertinence to this situation.


Zero pertinence? Attempting to substantiate a reasonable doubt to get you acquitted isn't pertinent? What justice system do you participate in then? Furthermore, I offered relevant advice in case this happens to you again. Not talking to cops regardless of your culpability helps you a lot.


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

In traffic court they are trying to get everyone in and out quickly. I can't say for sure how it works where you are, but what I have seen, the judge will explain to everyone that if you plead no contest, no points will be accessed but you will have to pay court costs. Adjudication withheld. Your out the door in 20 minutes.

If your just looking for some magic words to say, there aren't any. You ran a stop sign, got caught, so you are going to have to pay something. Be it time spent in court or some sort of fine or cost.

Good luck.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> The cop was hiding out of line of sight.


Sorry for your luck.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> Thanks, I'll be sure to never frequent this useless forum that is full of trolls ever again.


You have 19 posts since July 2011. If you did "frequent this useless forum" you'd know to expect a healthy dose of ribbing, along with some solid advice.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm in the man up you got caught crowd. Expecting people to tell you how to break the law with impunity is just wrong. One of the top 10 things cyclists do that tick drivers off is when we run stop signs or lights. We have equal rights to the road and get pissed when those rights are trampled. We should try to give equal respect to the laws that govern the road. I have run many stop signs in the past but not so much recently. I will do it if clearly no one is around, I expect to pay the fine if I get caught. Why should they let us off because we're cyclists?


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> Thanks, I'll be sure to never frequent this useless forum that is full of trolls ever again.





Opus51569 said:


> You have 19 posts since July 2011. If you did "frequent this useless forum" you'd know to expect a healthy dose of ribbing, along with some solid advice.


Well, RCM...


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I'm asking for help with regard to the situation I'm facing that exists next Wednesday at 9:30 am. If you can't respond with a reply that is actually helpful and pertinent, please save it. Thanks.


hire an attorney.

'cause if you're as pissy in court as you are here, the judge might sentence you to jail time.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Winn said:


> I'm in the man up you got caught crowd. Expecting people to tell you how to break the law with impunity is just wrong. One of the top 10 things cyclists do that tick drivers off is when we run stop signs or lights. We have equal rights to the road and get pissed when those rights are trampled. We should try to give equal respect to the laws that govern the road. I have run many stop signs in the past but not so much recently. I will do it if clearly no one is around, I expect to pay the fine if I get caught. Why should they let us off because we're cyclists?


Nuts and un-American this be. He is asking how to best approach his defense, etc. No one is asking how to break the law with impunity. I find the "man up" argument the moral equivalent of something that is patently unconstitutional. We're not talking murder or something like that. It's a low level traffic violation. The next time I get pulled over by a police officer for a traffic violation, I will smile, act politely and then ask for a break by letting me go with a warning. I'd be surprised if it happened, but it's worth a shot.


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

What's Virginia law? 

"B. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if a driver of a motorcycle or moped or a bicycle rider approaches an intersection that is controlled by a traffic light, the driver or rider may proceed through the intersection on a steady red light only if the driver or rider (i) comes to a full and complete stop at the intersection for two complete cycles of the traffic light or for two minutes, whichever is shorter, (ii) exercises due care as provided by law, (iii) otherwise treats the traffic control device as a stop sign, (iv) determines that it is safe to proceed, and (v) yields the right of way to the driver of any vehicle approaching on such other highway from either direction.

Violation of any provision of this section shall constitute a traffic infraction punishable by a fine of no more than $350."

Even with the law in Virginia allowing cyclists to run red lights you still have to stop for 2 minutes before running the light. I don't think you have many options. Go to court and hope the leo doesn't show, if that even matters in Virginia? If you have no moving violations of late they *may* reduce the charge? Each state is different. No clue about points. Is there a local lawyer resource that you could ask general questions to?


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

It's not "manning up" to take full punishment. There is always wiggle room depending on the situation. Perfectly legal and an expected part of the process. Ever hear of plea bargaining, ratting out others to get a reduced sentence, or "stay of continuance", etc.?

Ever get pulled over and let off with a warning? Should you argue with the officer to please give you a ticket, because you ran that stop sign? Luckily the law allows for leniency and negotiating. I would call it just plain stupid to not plead your case and try to reduce the fine or punishment. That's why you go to court, you don't go to court for the judge's edification.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> The cop was hiding out of line of sight.


I really hate when they do that. I got caught for speeding from a cop hiding behind a tree. I guess I did deserve it though...


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

While it sucks to get ticketed, I don't agree with points going on your drivers license since you are not legally required to have a license to ride a bicycle.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Tschai said:


> The next time I get pulled over by a police officer for a traffic violation, I will smile, act politely and then ask for a break by letting me go with a warning. I'd be surprised if it happened, but it's worth a shot.


I've been given some good breaks by the police because I didn't try and feed them a line of BS. 

Here's my license, I crossed the line and you caught me fair and square, says me. He runs my license and it comes back clean and sends me on my way, watch it next time, says he.
Not every time, but often enough that I feel that I'd be a fool to try and BS a cop.
Nobody likes to be lied to or played for a fool.

In fact, in my younger wilder days I was pulled over by an officer who was following me for about a mile, by his reckoning, before I realized he was there. He had a laundry list of infractions, the last of which was reckless driving.
I agreed with all of the infractions but the last one, and told him that , yes, I was guilty of all of them but the reckless driving. I wasn't driving recklessly, I explained, I was driving aggressively. 
He didn't let me completely off the hook, but only ticketed me for improper lane usage.

Cops are real people too, and if you treat them in a respectfull manor most will treat you with the same.

At least that's been my experience.


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## RichardT (Dec 12, 2010)

I'm a lawyer, so I will weigh in. Since I don't practice in Virginia and don't specialize in handling tickets, I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do other than this: Do not rely on a court clerk or the prosecutor for advice. They are not working for you. Instead, call a lawyer in your area who handles these issues every day. There are apparently plenty of traffic ticket lawyers in the Falls Church area. Ask around for a recommendation if possible, or call a few to see who you're most comfortable with. The lawyer or his assistant should be able to explain to you what your options are, what your fees will be, and what the likely result will be before you pay anything. My personal experience with traffic ticket lawyers in my neck of the woods (Broward County, FL) has been very positive: I've gotten every ticket dismissed (3 in 5 years), paid the lawyer substantially less than the fine on the face of the ticket, and never had to appear personally in court, attend traffic school, or even go to the lawyer's office. I just emailed him the ticket, paid him a small fee by credit card, and later got a dismissal notice in the mail. Good luck.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Walk into court with a big pee spot on your pants. I mean really big. Like 12" big. 

Then, cry uncontrollably. That might work.

Good luck!

PS - take cash for the fine


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

i'd tell the truth. the forced court appearance appears to be so that a judge can make an assessment, so he/she is probably judging you more than whether you broke the law.

i run stop signs on a bicycle regularly. not every one, but many. i do so for the same reason i may not come to a stop as a pedestrian; the speed at which i'm traveling in approaching a given intersection may well allow for a clear view without coming to a complete stop. right of way rules. 

obviously the intention isn't to get out of a penalty, 'cause that ain't gonna happen. but not being an idiot or a liar might count for something.

edit; actually, RichardT's advice sounds much better.


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## dbdg (Apr 5, 2014)

This is what has worked for me: 

Be polite. Admit you were wrong. Apologize sincerely. Wear a low cut top under your blazer. 

(not "i'm auditioning for a new stripper job" low but "oops this shirt must have gotten dried on high" snug)


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

dbdg said:


> This is what has worked for me:
> 
> Be polite. Admit you were wrong. Apologize sincerely. Wear a low cut top under your blazer.
> 
> (not "i'm auditioning for a new stripper job" low but "oops this shirt must have gotten dried on high" snug)


Hahahahahaha! Nice!


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

If they dinged you for violating 46.2-821 - failing to stop before entering a highway - then I'm curious why you say that the ticket isn't prepayable. Did something else happen? Did they cite you for something other than 46.2-821? Was there an accident? Other citations?

The Fall Church gov't webside indicates that you can prepay a ticket issued for running a stop sign: 

http://www.fallschurchva.gov/content/docs/prepayableoffenseform.pdf

The ticket, if you prepay, is $30 + $61 processing fee. Otherwise, you run the risk of up to a $250 fine + court costs.

Being convicted of (or admitting to) a violation of 46.2-821 is also worth four points on your license. 

Did this happen on a bike trail? There was a case a couple of years ago involving a cyclist who blew a stop sign on the W&OD trail. They contested the ticket, and convinced the judge that 46.2-821 didn't apply because the bike trail isn't a "highway" or road, which is a prerequisite for he statute. 

The above is provided for informational purposes only, and is not intended as legal advice nor should it be relied upon by anyone as a substitute for retaining legal counsel. The original poster should retain the services of an attorney and seek legal advice that specifically addreses his or her particular situation.


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## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

First don't be a jerk like you were with the replies about non-helping posts, you gotta expect some of that if you have been in Internet forms for more than a day. If you are like that in court it will get you nowhere. Be nice and polite. 

Second try and change the date. Cops I know get a specific day for all court cases in a given time period. They have one day off the street when all of their cases are heard. They have to be present to testify or you case will be thrown out. If you can get the day changed chances are it won't be on his scheduled day for court next time around. Most cities are not that sophisticated for the rescheduling to get you back on that cop's day.

Third make a copy of that ticket and proudly frame it. Not many people get ticketed on a bike. I go above and beyond to obey laws when and single motorist is around because I don't want to steward good will to all drivers. I don't want to come off as that d!ck on a bike where the rules don't apply. I am much more likely to run a red light or stop sign in my car than on my bike. However if I ever did get a ticket on my bike I gladly pay it. You knowingly do something wrong you take the blame...period!


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

velodog said:


> .. if you treat them in a respectfull manor most will treat you with the same.
> 
> At least that's been my experience.


You buy large estate houses as bribes regularly?


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

It does not hurt to ask for a lenient outcome.

Be polite, and point out that you did slow down substantially. It's not a situation where you rode through at full speed.

In Illinois the law states that points cannot be assessed against your license since a license is not required. Have the citation to the statute handy and ask the judge to include a statement in his ruling. Clerks don't always know or pay attention when notifying the dmv

As for a lawyer, with all due respect, I don't think I would want one whose fee was less than the fine for a minor fine. Perhaps if your record was such that you could use your license, or if there was an accident


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## nealric (Jul 5, 2007)

Show up in a suit, address the judge or hearing officer as "your honor". Do not speak until spoken to. 

90% of the people there will be in stained T-shirts. Looking clean cut goes a long way. Got out of a ticket myself this way.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

nOOky said:


> Kind of hard to assess fines/points etc. as every state has different rules. Dress nicely, talk politely, get there early, and ask the prosecutor ahead of time if there is any way you can get out with paying a fee and not having the offense go against your driving record. If not then state your case to the judge and simply say something like "I looked both ways, it was clear, I did slow down, so I'm simply asking for leniency your honor". Trying to get clever and question the officer's judgement probably won't work. If your lucky maybe the officer won't show up, and the case will get dismissed.


Yup. Or even curiouser: 

1. The amount of fine shown on the ticket is often astronomically high. I got a ticket for rolling through a stop sign on my bike in RHE, even though I slowed to a near stop, stood up, looked both ways twice, did everything but unclip. I was polite, but the cop was obviously in a bad mood. Amount of ticket - $416.

2. Intending to make my case in court, I appeared. But I never saw a judge. I was placed in line with a few dozen other "law-breakers." When I got up to the bailiff, he simply said, "Your fine is reduced to $140. Pay at the window across the alley." 

So I did. It was a bit bizarre . . . .


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Agree. I haven't gone to court on a cycling ticket but have on a good number of tickets over 40+ years of driving. If I get a ticket, I always go to court rather than pay. In every case, just for showing up, being neatly dressed, clearly spoken, polite, respectful, and confident, I at least got a reduced fine and points. In one case I got no fine or points just for being so nice. In a few cases, I was prepared to argue my case, but it never got that far. There is no point or no benefit in attempting to discuss any law itself, like it should/shouldn't apply to cyclists, as police and judges can't change it, they can only use discretion in enforcing it. 

It's appalling how poorly most people present themselves in court; sloppily dressed, poor English, looking down and mumbling so they can't be understood, making incoherent, irrelevant or illogical statements. It's pretty easy to look good by comparison. 

Procedures differ by jurisdiction. In one I had to first ask to speak to a prosecuting attorney. In most others, I just spoke to the judge in court. In one I went and sat in front of a justice and the officer in the justice's office. It's that last one that I got off completely. 

Of course, this all starts with the officer that standing there and deciding to issue the ticket. I've gotten off or gotten a warning or reduced infraction just by being polite and respectful toward the officer at the time. Even if he doesn't cut you a break there, he might be more amenable in court. This has specifically happened to me, where the officer pointed out in court how polite and respectful I was when he stopped me and agreed with the judge in giving me a reduction in points and fine. 

FWIW, I don't get a heck of a lot of tickets. This reflects my experiences reflect 40+ years of driving, much of it on motorcycles...


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## RichardT (Dec 12, 2010)

Herbie said:


> As for a lawyer, with all due respect, I don't think I would want one whose fee was less than the fine for a minor fine. Perhaps if your record was such that you could use your license, or if there was an accident


I don't know how it works in Virginia, but in Broward County, FL ticket lawyers handle dozens of cases at once and can make a very nice living. They're able to charge a low fee because it's a volume business. It's not a reflection on their ability to get a good result for their clients.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

velodog said:


> Cops are real people too, and if you treat them in a respectfull manor most will treat you with the same. At least that's been my experience.


What if they only have a small apartment?


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## onespeed (Mar 21, 2002)

*I never stop when a cop tries to pull me over on my bike*

Never look in their direction, dont acknowledge the, yelling at you or the siren, make some quick turns and lose them. 

Works for me every time-almost. 

When I do get a ticket (last one was 8-9 years ago), I ignore it. Eventually I show up in court for something 3-4 years later and the ticket is usually dismissed-judges dont have a lot of patience for prosecutors who try to railroad cyclists. 

It is not the approach for everyone, but it has worked for me.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

Just curious as to what disrespectful manor would be like. I thought all manors were well respected. ?


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## RIL49 (Apr 27, 2012)

Paying for a ticket is like paying a voluntary tax. Don't volunteer for the infraction. I know, easier said than done.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

kjdhawkhill said:


> You buy large estate houses as bribes regularly?





Mike T. said:


> What if they only have a small apartment?





Winn said:


> Just curious as to what disrespectful manor would be like. I thought all manors were well respected. ?


Ya see, these are the kind of smart ass remarks that'll get you a ticket and a large fine every time.




For my punishment I will now correctly write manner 100 times.

manner, manner, manner, manner, manner, manner, manner....

Well, not quite 100 times.


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

RichardT said:


> Instead, call a lawyer in your area who handles these issues every day. There are apparently plenty of traffic ticket lawyers in the Falls Church area. Ask around for a recommendation if possible, or call a few to see who you're most comfortable with. The lawyer or his assistant should be able to explain to you what your options are, what your fees will be, and what the likely result will be before you pay anything. My personal experience with traffic ticket lawyers in my neck of the woods (Broward County, FL) has been very positive: I've gotten every ticket dismissed (3 in 5 years), paid the lawyer substantially less than the fine on the face of the ticket, and never had to appear personally in court, attend traffic school, or even go to the lawyer's office. I just emailed him the ticket, paid him a small fee by credit card, and later got a dismissal notice in the mail. Good luck.


It's been so long since I had a ticket I had totally forgotten about this. 

I got a speeding ticket (in Broward County) and had one of these guys take care of it. It was a lot cheaper than taking a day off, driving all the way up there and paying for parking. No points, no school, no higher insurance, and no problem.

Believe me, take RichardT's advice. After all, he's probably billing someone $450 an hour for it.:thumbsup:


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## paddy_boy (Oct 1, 2012)

Happened to me a couple of years ago. Crossed on a red light, right in front of 2 motorcycle cops (not smart!). The judge lowered my fine by over 50% just by showing up on time, dressing nice, being respectful and contrite; makes a huge difference. Assuming, of course, that you aren't wanted for any other serious offenses.


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## bbulmann (Aug 22, 2012)

+1 on consulting a lawyer- don't take advice from people who live in other states. Here in NY if you blew the stop sign AND didn't have a bell on your bicycle, you would have gotten two tickets.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

bbulmann said:


> +1 on consulting a lawyer- don't take advice from people who live in other states.


Best advice on this thread.


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## gregario (Nov 19, 2001)

Dress nice, be friendly, and HONEST. Explain the circumstances. Your statement "The intersection was clear with no approaching pedestrian or car traffic and I approached and entered it at a reasonable speed." sounds reasonable. Emphasize your awareness and the lack of other traffic.

Having said that however, I'm kind of a stickler for cyclists following the rules. How do we expect equal rights when we don't accept the responsibilities?

But, good luck.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SauronHimself said:


> You won't get points on your license since you weren't driving a motor vehicle.


Heh, that's what I thought, too, last time I got a ticket on my bike (Illinois). Turned out I was wrong, and I did get points.


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## heybrady (Jul 3, 2011)

Dress nice. Act polite. And hope you are behind a guy dressed like a slob who has a more serious offense


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

I hope cyclists get fined more often. At least where I ride. Most cyclists I see have total disregard for road rules. Blast through intersections, red, stops, doesn't matter. Rarely ever signal, weave through traffic as if they are invincible.

I think it would do a lot for cyclist/driver relationships if cyclists followed the road rules. wouldn't piss off so many drivers for being morons.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

Fill me in on "ticket lawyers". In 30 years of practicing law, I have never run into one who does this as a significant part of their practice. I know several lawyers who take on DUI cases, and cases where the driver stands to lose his license, bhut you would be better off paying the fine, rather than the fee and possibly a reduced fine

Perhaps this is something limited to major cities. How do they organize a practice, and typical charge. Typical result? Do they have to wait for their clirnt's case to be called, or do the judges let them present their multiple cases one right after another. 

Could be a new part time job for me.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

Herbie said:


> Fill me in on "ticket lawyers". In 30 years of practicing law, I have never run into one who does this as a significant part of their practice. I know several lawyers who take on DUI cases, and cases where the driver stands to lose his license, bhut you would be better off paying the fine, rather than the fee and possibly a reduced fine
> 
> Perhaps this is something limited to major cities. How do they organize a practice, and typical charge. Typical result? Do they have to wait for their clirnt's case to be called, or do the judges let them present their multiple cases one right after another.
> 
> Could be a new part time job for me.


there's a guy in Westchester (north of NYC) who has quite a name amongst the motorcycling crowd. seems to be his bread and butter. he's not cheap, but he's known for good results and points cost you annually around here. so you pay the man, he goes to court for you and that's that. he managed to get my gf's speeding ticket (78 in a 55) down to a fine and driving school, with no points. worth every penny as she teaches MSF.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

I am struggling with this. A lawyer for a traffic ticket?? Unless you are about to lose your license, how could it possibly be cheaper to pay for a lawyer for a lousy stop sign infraction? I am in the man up and pay the fine camp


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

DaveG said:


> Unless you are about to lose your license, how could it possibly be cheaper to pay for a lawyer for a lousy stop sign infraction?


depends where you live. or where you got the ticket. points are very expensive in NY.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveG said:


> I am struggling with this. A lawyer for a traffic ticket?? Unless you are about to lose your license, how could it possibly be cheaper to pay for a lawyer for a lousy stop sign infraction? I am in the man up and pay the fine camp


A ticket may have a bearing on your auto insurance rates. Depending on ticket and insurance co. that ticket could have as much bearing on a rate hike as an accident.

In the long run that hike rate could turn out to be more expensive than a lawyer fee.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Pirx said:


> Heh, that's what I thought, too, last time I got a ticket on my bike (Illinois). Turned out I was wrong, and I did get points.


That's pretty rotten. You don't need a driving license to ride a bicycle. Therefore, infractions from cycling should have no impact on you motor vehicle license. I would've fought that one tooth and nail.


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## Team Sarcasm (Oct 22, 2012)

You're not going to get a mark on your driving record because you were not driving. I mostly stop at stopsigns, but do my best to avoid them. 

In my experience, even if I stop at a stop sign, the cars (including an officer a few times) would _go with me_ (a.k.a. running the stopsign....) when it came to be my turn to go at an intersection. 

Can't win.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SauronHimself said:


> That's pretty rotten. You don't need a driving license to ride a bicycle. Therefore, infractions from cycling should have no impact on you motor vehicle license. I would've fought that one tooth and nail.


I've heard it said "you can't fight city hall". 

And if when Pirx said Illinois, if he meant Cook Co., that would most highly apply.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

DaveG said:


> I am in the man up and pay the fine camp


So, should we expect to see you pay the fine for speeding every time you drive over the speed limit, or does your "man up" camp-ness only apply if you are provided with a ticket from a police officer?


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## rgordin (Oct 22, 2010)

SauronHimself said:


> Next time don't run a stop sign. You won't get points on your license since you weren't driving a motor vehicle. You could try asking the judge if the cop has a dash cam video of you running the stop sign. If not, you may be able to argue that his eyewitness testimony is unreliable.
> 
> In the future if you get pulled over again, just exercise your right to remain silent. It doesn't guarantee you'll get out of a ticket, but it gives the cop the least amount of ammo against you.


Sorry, but this is wishful thinking. Eyewitness testimony is accepted by courts all the time. If a law enforcement officer says you ran a stop sign, without some extraordinary testimony to the contrary, you have had it. 

You should tell the judge you know you were wrong and perhaps try to give some mitigating explanation for your admittedly wrongful act. For example, if you slowed down and looked both ways, you should at least say that. Tell the court you have learned your lesson. On the other hand, if you were escaping from a robber . . .


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

rgordin said:


> Sorry, but this is wishful thinking. Eyewitness testimony is accepted by courts all the time. If a law enforcement officer says you ran a stop sign, without some extraordinary testimony to the contrary, you have had it.


Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence. If it's the cop's word against yours, it's a stalemate. The fact that he/she says something happened doesn't mean it did, especially when today a cop can *easily* produce irrefutable forms of evidence like photographs, dash cam videos, or videos from security cameras.


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## onespeed (Mar 21, 2002)

*I dont have a license or car insurance.*



velodog said:


> A ticket may have a bearing on your auto insurance rates. Depending on ticket and insurance co. that ticket could have as much bearing on a rate hike as an accident.
> 
> In the long run that hike rate could turn out to be more expensive than a lawyer fee.


So this way of thinking does not enter into my mind at all when considering how to respond to a bike ticket.


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## onespeed (Mar 21, 2002)

*I would never hand a cop my license even if I had one.*



velodog said:


> I've been given some good breaks by the police because I didn't try and feed them a line of BS.
> 
> Here's my license, I crossed the line and you caught me fair and square, says me. He runs my license and it comes back clean and sends me on my way, watch it next time, says he.
> Not every time, but often enough that I feel that I'd be a fool to try and BS a cop.
> ...


Thats why I carry my Irish passport (dual citizen). They usually let me go because they think I am visiting and wont show up for the ticket anyways.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

onespeed said:


> So this way of thinking does not enter into my mind at all when considering how to respond to a bike ticket.


Well, yeah, you established that in your other post.

There are other ways that folks deal with issues other than yours or mine or that other guys. I'm just putting something out there that bears thinking about if costs are involved.



onespeed said:


> Never look in their direction, dont acknowledge the, yelling at you or the siren, make some quick turns and lose them.
> 
> Works for me every time-almost.
> 
> ...


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Tschai said:


> So, should we expect to see you pay the fine for speeding every time you drive over the speed limit, or does your "man up" camp-ness only apply if you are provided with a ticket from a police officer?


I send a check in every week to my local police station


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## RichardT (Dec 12, 2010)

DaveG said:


> I am struggling with this. A lawyer for a traffic ticket?? Unless you are about to lose your license, how could it possibly be cheaper to pay for a lawyer for a lousy stop sign infraction? I am in the man up and pay the fine camp


I paid my ticket lawyer $75 each time. That's far cheaper than the tickets I got, and I didn't have to go to court, didn't get points on my license, and didn't have to go to traffic school. You may be wondering, how can a lawyer make any money handling a case for $75? The answer, as I said in a previous post, is that it's a volume business. He handles numerous cases each time he goes to court. I've never even spoken to him, actually. I just dealt with his assistant by phone. Note that this has been my experience in Broward County, FL, but may not be typical of what happens in other states.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

onespeed said:


> Thats why I carry my Irish passport (dual citizen). They usually let me go because they think I am visiting and wont show up for the ticket anyways.


I don't carry my drivers license when on my bike so that doesn't come into play. My ID is on my Road ID and medical alert neck chain.

I crossed over my drivers license experience from driving and dealing with cops. More of a dealing with the police in general, not just while on a bike.

Kind of an "honesty is the best policy" kind of thing.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Go to court
Let judge lecture you
Pay fine and court fees

Then don't run stop signs (and red lights)


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

Herbie said:


> Fill me in on "ticket lawyers". In 30 years of practicing law, I have never run into one who does this as a significant part of their practice. I know several lawyers who take on DUI cases, and cases where the driver stands to lose his license, bhut you would be better off paying the fine, rather than the fee and possibly a reduced fine
> 
> Perhaps this is something limited to major cities. How do they organize a practice, and typical charge. Typical result? Do they have to wait for their clirnt's case to be called, or do the judges let them present their multiple cases one right after another.
> 
> Could be a new part time job for me.


Traffic Ticket Attorney / Lawyer | The Ticket Clinic Florida and Nationwide | Speeding Ticket Lawyer in Florida

Haven't a clue how they do it. It just gets done.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

RichardT said:


> I paid my ticket lawyer $75 each time. That's far cheaper than the tickets I got, and I didn't have to go to court, didn't get points on my license, and didn't have to go to traffic school. You may be wondering, how can a lawyer make any money handling a case for $75? The answer, as I said in a previous post, is that it's a volume business. He handles numerous cases each time he goes to court. I've never even spoken to him, actually. I just dealt with his assistant by phone. Note that this has been my experience in Broward County, FL, but may not be typical of what happens in other states.


We have one of those here in Las Vegas. They work out of a converted house painted hot pink at a majot intersection and advertise on TV all the time so they must be making money. My dad paid the lawyer less than the cost of the ticket and had no points assessed, no traffic school and no court appearance. He was pretty happy and said he would use them again.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

SauronHimself said:


> Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence. If it's the cop's word against yours, it's a stalemate. The fact that he/she says something happened doesn't mean it did, especially when today a cop can *easily* produce irrefutable forms of evidence like photographs, dash cam videos, or videos from security cameras.


This is not true.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

SauronHimself said:


> Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence. *If it's the cop's word against yours, it's a stalemate.* The fact that he/she says something happened doesn't mean it did, especially when today a cop can *easily* produce irrefutable forms of evidence like photographs, dash cam videos, or videos from security cameras.


what country do you live in, 'cause i want to live there too.


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## Samfujiabq (Jul 3, 2013)

Tednugent probably has the better advise,the rest are getting carried away over a petty misdemeanor.The lawyer sounds like he wants to make money for lawyers.Velodog sounds like its a manslaughter case,I was a cop so just dress nice,go to court,speak only when spoken to and hopefully you'll get a suspended sentence and probably have to pay court costs.I never gave tickets to cyclists,but that was me,the world is full of chickenshit cops.


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## RichardT (Dec 12, 2010)

Samfujiabq said:


> The lawyer sounds like he wants to make money for lawyers.


Sure, whatever you say. All I know is I paid my lawyer $75 and didn't spend half my day going to court, as you recommend. And half my day is worth a lot more than $75.


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## Samfujiabq (Jul 3, 2013)

RichardT said:


> Sure, whatever you say. All I know is I paid my lawyer $75 and didn't spend half my day going to court, as you recommend. And half my day is worth a lot more than $75.


Good!Im glad for you,whew now I can sleep tonight


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Samfujiabq said:


> Velodog sounds like its a manslaughter case,


I've got a coupla posts here, could ya point out the one that's got me confusing this ticket with a manslaughter case.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

I learned something here. I do wonder if this traffic ticket lawyer set up is unique to Florida. I noticed there money back guarantee based on result. That alone would be a major issue in the states where I was licensed.

As for insurance rates going up, that would be very state specific. In Illinois a ticket issued to a cyclist cannot be entered on your motor vehicle record. In fact driving school would get your first ticket erased from your record


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Herbie said:


> I learned something here. I do wonder if this traffic ticket lawyer set up is unique to Florida. I noticed there money back guarantee based on result. That alone would be a major issue in the states where I was licensed


As I mentioned above, we have traffic lawyers in Las Vegas. The one must be doing pretty well because there are always commercials on network affiliate TV stations.

It worked for my dad. I think he paid $90 for a $250 or so ticket. No points, no traffic school and no court appearance. I think I'd use them if I ever got a ticket here.


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## Samfujiabq (Jul 3, 2013)

Sure the one saying it could affect his insurance,it may be as a bad as a traffic accident,,geeze it's a stop sign violation not involving an accident.I don't know about his state or your state but our judges are so overwhelmed with more serious crimes they would throw that ticket out and caution the officer on tying up his docket with such minor traffic infractions.Jus sayin from 24 years as a cop.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Samfujiabq said:


> Sure the one saying it could affect his insurance,it may be as a bad as a traffic accident,,geeze it's a stop sign violation not involving an accident.I don't know about his state or your state but our judges are so overwhelmed with more serious crimes they would throw that ticket out and caution the officer on tying up his docket with such minor traffic infractions.Jus sayin from 24 years as a cop.


Many jurisdictions have traffic courts so their dockets are not overwhelmed by more serious offenses except DUI. Perhaps that's why the traffic lawyer setup works so well - the deals are made and quickly submitted to the court for approval in large blocks. I'm just stating how it worked out for my dad; things could certainly be different in your neck of the woods.

I can't imagine a judge admonishing an officer for enforcing the law.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

I'm a lawyer and also play one on TV. There are ticket lawyers here in Phoenix and in SoCal, where I was also a lawyer on TV. We also have traffic court, so they try to fill the docket with traffic cases. We also have cops and ex-cops The ones from Mesa are nasty. Finally, I am from the innocent until proven guilty camp, which allows the utilization of a rigorous defense should one choose to do so, and said doing so does not result in a lack of man-up-ness.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

Perhaps I'm naive or just slow. I always thought the innocent until proven guilty thing was intended to protect the innocent not the guilty. If you are falsely accused of a misdemeanor you can and should defend yourself. If you know you are guilty, pay the fine. If you need to beg the mercy of the court fine. Breaking the law and having someone help you do it without consequences is not the reason the founders of this nation put the court system in place. Anyway to each his own I suppose.


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## Samfujiabq (Jul 3, 2013)

Tschai said:


> I'm a lawyer and also play one on TV. There are ticket lawyers here in Phoenix and in SoCal, where I was also a lawyer on TV. We also have traffic court, so they try to fill the docket with traffic cases. We also have cops and ex-cops The ones from Mesa are nasty. Finally, I am from the innocent until proven guilty camp, which allows the utilization of a rigorous defense should one choose to do so, and said doing so does not result in a lack of man-up-ness.


I agree:thumbsup:


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## RichardT (Dec 12, 2010)

Samfujiabq said:


> I agree:thumbsup:


What do you agree with? You criticized me for suggesting the OP consult with a lawyer, but now you agree with Tschai that the OP is entitled to a vigorous defense. You seem to be contradicting yourself.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

onespeed said:


> Thats why I carry my Irish passport (dual citizen). They usually let me go because they think I am visiting and wont show up for the ticket anyways.


Sure but first they give you a sobriety test.


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## Samfujiabq (Jul 3, 2013)

I agree about a vigorous defense,but acting Pro Se and not paying for a lawyer.No contradiction, I still don't believe in padding anyone's pocket for a petty assed misdemeanor,and I'll be sure not to agree with you again!sorry.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Winn said:


> Perhaps I'm naive or just slow. I always thought the innocent until proven guilty thing was intended to protect the innocent not the guilty. If you are falsely accused of a misdemeanor you can and should defend yourself. If you know you are guilty, pay the fine. If you need to beg the mercy of the court fine. Breaking the law and having someone help you do it without consequences is not the reason the founders of this nation put the court system in place. Anyway to each his own I suppose.


I think of using a traffic lawyer not so much as trying to get off as I do trying to minimize the expense. There's nothing wrong with that especially if it means not having points on your record.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

RichardT said:


> What do you agree with? You criticized me for suggesting the OP consult with a lawyer, but now you agree with Tschai that the OP is entitled to a vigorous defense. You seem to be contradicting yourself.


Was wondering about this apparent flip-flop myself.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Samfujiabq said:


> I agree about a vigorous defense,but acting Pro Se and not paying for a lawyer.No contradiction, I still don't believe in padding anyone's pocket for a petty assed misdemeanor,and I'll be sure not to agree with you again!sorry.


If the cost of the lawyer is less than the cost of the ticket why not hire a lawyer? You just minimizing the out-of-pocket expense plus, depending on jurisdiction, you may be avoiding points against your license.


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## skhan007 (May 18, 2012)

This has been a thoroughly entertaining and humorous read, so thanks to all with the conflicting views and poor grammar! Brilliant way for me to enjoy a lazy Sunday morning. I live near Falls Church, VA and am planning to bike that way into DC today with my son. I make sure we stop at intersections, period. I can totally believe that the OP got caught, because there are cops every 500 ft. in this area. It's a known thing, if you live in No. VA. 

The best advice I've read here (from multiple people) is show up, ask for leniency, be humble, and admit to wrong-doing, but also admit to being safe and not reckless. I've rolled through stop signs, but only after really slowing up, downshifting, doing a near track stand, and being obvious about looking in all directions to make sure I'm clear.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

LVbob said:


> I think of using a traffic lawyer not so much as trying to get off as I do trying to minimize the expense. There's nothing wrong with that especially if it means not having points on your record.


If you actually did it dont you deserve points off your license? So basically we are all in for working the system to our advantage, despite our guilt. How does this work with drivers that actually deserve a suspended license? Seems like the system was put in place to keep people safe and having your ticket taken care of just seems wrong to me. Oh well, like I said to each his own.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

onespeed said:


> Never look in their direction, dont acknowledge the, yelling at you or the siren, make some quick turns and lose them.
> 
> Works for me every time-almost.


That's a pretty stupid thing to do. 
Fleeing police pursuit is usually a felony. 
It's also really stupid to advise someone else to do it.



> When I do get a ticket (last one was 8-9 years ago), I ignore it. Eventually I show up in court for something 3-4 years later and the ticket is usually dismissed-judges dont have a lot of patience for prosecutors who try to railroad cyclists.
> 
> It is not the approach for everyone, but it has worked for me.


Sure. Judges like nothing more than people who disregard the law.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm pretty sure he was joking. If you take that advice you deserve the tackle that is surely coming at the end of your sprint...


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Samfujiabq said:


> I agree about a vigorous defense,but acting Pro Se and not paying for a lawyer.No contradiction, I still don't believe in padding anyone's pocket for a petty assed misdemeanor,and I'll be sure not to agree with you again!sorry.


Old saying.

A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

It's a traffic ticket not a murder case. And the guy is guilty. I've never even seen a lawyer any time I have taken one to court...


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Winn said:


> If you actually did it dont you deserve points off your license? So basically we are all in for working the system to our advantage, despite our guilt. How does this work with drivers that actually deserve a suspended license? Seems like the system was put in place to keep people safe and having your ticket taken care of just seems wrong to me. Oh well, like I said to each his own.


I am in your corner, Winn... How many multiple offenders use these lawyers to keep themselves driving when they should have long ago had their license revoked?


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

I am confused as to how a Irish passport would help. I don't drive or ride around with my passports and the cops here want to see a drivers licence not a passport for traffic offences (car related). They can ask for your GC though. Frankly offering a passport might get you into way more strife in anti immigration states once they look up status, cross reference drivers license, establish residency period etc. Not something I would try if I was a permanent resident. Even an Irish drivers licences would raise eyebrows if they run you in any computer. My state gives you about 6 months to get a local license.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Samfujiabq said:


> Sure the one saying it could affect his insurance,it may be as a bad as a traffic accident,,geeze it's a stop sign violation not involving an accident.I don't know about his state or your state but our judges are so overwhelmed with more serious crimes they would throw that ticket out and caution the officer on tying up his docket with such minor traffic infractions.Jus sayin from 24 years as a cop.


So the judge presiding Traffic Court doesn't want to be bothered by traffic infractions? 

Oh, I'm sorry, minor traffic infractions.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

velodog said:


> So the judge presiding Traffic Court doesn't want to be bothered by traffic infractions?
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry, minor traffic infractions.


I have seen judges in civil court that did not want to be bothered with civil cases.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Winn said:


> If you actually did it dont you deserve points off your license? So basically we are all in for working the system to our advantage, despite our guilt. How does this work with drivers that actually deserve a suspended license? Seems like the system was put in place to keep people safe and having your ticket taken care of just seems wrong to me. Oh well, like I said to each his own.


You call it working the system; I call it doing what is financially sensible and expedient. Even though I am retired, I still value my time enough to not want to do the whole drive downtown and spend who knows how many hours in court thing.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

NJBiker72 said:


> I have seen judges in civil court that did not want to be bothered with civil cases.


I can understand that, civil cases can be quite uncivil.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Winn said:


> Perhaps I'm naive or just slow. I always thought the innocent until proven guilty thing was intended to protect the innocent not the guilty. If you are falsely accused of a misdemeanor you can and should defend yourself. If you know you are guilty, pay the fine. If you need to beg the mercy of the court fine. Breaking the law and having someone help you do it without consequences is not the reason the founders of this nation put the court system in place. Anyway to each his own I suppose.


There are many reasons for the presumption of innocence, but I would say that a main reason is to ensure that the prosecution adheres to the law required of it in the enforcement and prosecution of crimes. It also ensures that an accused has all of the guarantees necessary for a defense. The principle maintains a functioning democratic society and prevents the government from abusing its authority. It is never more important than in the prosecution of someone that is in fact guilty. 

Also, there is nothing about any of this that points to others helping the OP break the law without consequences. The OP is asking for help with his defense.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Tschai said:


> Also, there is nothing about any of this that points to others helping the OP break the law without consequences. *The OP is asking for help with his defense.*


Of course, it appears the OP has long ago fled the scene in a huff.


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## RichardT (Dec 12, 2010)

Samfujiabq said:


> I agree about a vigorous defense,but acting Pro Se and not paying for a lawyer.No contradiction, I still don't believe in padding anyone's pocket for a petty assed misdemeanor,and I'll be sure not to agree with you again!sorry.


I don't care whether you agree or disagree with me. I do have a problem with your impugning my motives when you don't even know me. ("The lawyer sounds like he wants to make money for lawyers.") To suggest that I was not giving a good faith opinion to OP and was really trying to line the pockets of some hypothetical lawyer in Falls Church VA is as absurd as it is offensive. And by the way, getting a ticket for running a stop sign is not a criminal misdemeanor; it's a civil traffic infraction. I would think that a former cop would know the difference.


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## bleckb (Jun 13, 2005)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> Does anyone have any advice or useful information. I'm curious about whether I might get points on my license, what the fine may be, and what I might be able to do to fight it. The intersection was clear with no approaching pedestrian or car traffic and I approached and entered it at a reasonable speed.


Chances are, though the laws are basically the same in each state as far as not stopping, the consequences will vary. I ran a stop sign on the Burke Gilman Trail just north of Seattle and got caught. I didn't have to appear. I was able to mail in the fine. However, it did not go on my driving record. 

Since I've been involved a bicycle advocacy for a few years, I was rather embarrassed, and I have long run the sign I ran. It's in such a horrid spot where there is little real reason to have to stop beyond the sign, Yield maybe, but they were working it that day and I got caught. If you have hopes for mitigating circumstances admit that you didn't stop but, and only, assuming it's true, let the judge/magistrate whatever know you looked both ways, etc. and made sure you wouldn't get hit nor would you hit anyone. Maybe you'll catch a break.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

LVbob said:


> You call it working the system; I call it doing what is financially sensible and expedient. Even though I am retired, I still value my time enough to not want to do the whole drive downtown and spend who knows how many hours in court thing.



Don't want to spend the time downtown? Don't break the law. I call it expedient and financially sensible. You'd think a seasoned retired gentlemen would have figured that out by now...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

LVbob said:


> Of course, it appears the OP has long ago fled the scene in a huff.


Yeah, but the rest of us are still here spewing knowledge.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

velodog said:


> Yeah, but the rest of us are still here spewing knowledge.


Is spew the right term or is it more of a trickle. I bet the OP is still lurking about being edified so he can avoid the horrible consequences of his traffic infraction. Or maybe he lawyered up and was advised to quit admitting his guilt on public forums.


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## onespeed (Mar 21, 2002)

*Not joking. I have employed these methods and they work.*



Winn said:


> I'm pretty sure he was joking. If you take that advice you deserve the tackle that is surely coming at the end of your sprint...


Ever see a judge dress down a prosecutor for bringing a cyclist in and tagging them with 9 tickets? The tickets were all 4-5 years old as well. The prosecutor was trying for some outrageous amount in fines. The judge looks at me and says why were you riding your motorcycle like this. I told the judge I was on a bike and then the judge lost it. 

There were child molesters on his docket and he is dealing with a cyclist. 

He put his hand up to the prosecutor when they tried to respond and dismissed all the tickets as long as I didnt have any more within 6 months. Left a couple thousand in fines on the table. 

And I have never been tackled. I successfully employed the ignore the cop scenario many times at the same location. Until one day he actually stood in front of me to get me to stop. He tried to get me to admit I had seen him the other times. "I have never seen you before, this is the first time I have seen you." He wrote me a ticket for everything he could and it all got dismissed 3-4 years later. 

My last ticket was 8-9 years ago. I never acknowledge a request to pull over and truth be told it is not that hard to lose a cop in NYC. Just never look them in the eye. That way they cannot say you were eluding.


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## onespeed (Mar 21, 2002)

*I dont have a license at all.*

So when they ask I give them my passport. I am on a bike so there is nothing they can do but accept it. 

Then they see it is a passport and a foreign one at that and they think I am on vacation and figure I:

1. am either ignorant of the law and cut me slack
2. figure I wont show up to court after I leave to go home to Ireland

I dont know what one they assume but when it has worked they usually tell me to not do what I did to get pulled over and let me go.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

Wow that would never work here they will take you out and there is sometimes miles between turns. I wouldn't put it past them to actually hit you with their car. We live in different worlds. You might get the same reaction from a judge though writing cyclists tickets is pretty silly.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Alfonsina said:


> I am confused as to how a Irish passport would help. I don't drive or ride around with my passports and the cops here want to see a drivers licence not a passport for traffic offences (car related)


My GF and I make occasional trips to the US. One time one of her friends asked if she could come along. When the US border inspector asked for ID she produced an Irish passport.
Usually they ask us the standard questions and wave us through...not that time. GF and I were each interviewed separately for an hour about our Irish friend. I think if she had shown her Canadian passport it would have been no problem. Dual citizenship is suspicious by US standards.

Offering up a passport as ID in traffic stop would raise all kinds of red flags for LEO's. They would likely enter it in their database with all available cross references and next time you pretend to be a visitor they'd throw the book at you.


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

onespeed said:


> So when they ask I give them my passport. I am on a bike so there is nothing they can do but accept it.
> 
> Then they see it is a passport and a foreign one at that and they think I am on vacation and figure I:
> 
> ...


 Because you have your passport out on your bike? Sure.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Tschai said:


> This is not true.


Because...?


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## rgordin (Oct 22, 2010)

SauronHimself said:


> Because...?


Actually, when you wrote the following you were responding to my post. You wrote:

"Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence. If it's the cop's word against yours, it's a stalemate. The fact that he/she says something happened doesn't mean it did, especially when today a cop can easily produce irrefutable forms of evidence like photographs, dash cam videos, or videos from security cameras."

I wasn't going to comment further on your analysis because I did not think it would do anything to change your mind. But in the practical world of what will in fact happen in traffic court, you are generally incorrect. I say this based on my experience and knowledge from practicing law for 40 years, including time spent as a prosecutor and as a criminal defense attorney.

First, your statement that eyewitness testimony is the "least reliable form of evidence" is a broad over-generalization that is no more accurate or correct than a statement that it is the "most reliable form of evidence." The reliability of evidence depends on numerous factors that vary from witness to witness or physical evidence to physical evidence. 

But in some ways, it doesn't matter how theoretically reliable it is. Eye witness testimony is admitted as evidence and can form the basis of a guilty verdict without any other evidence being presented. It is up to the fact-finder (judge or jury) to make that decision. And in so doing, the fact-finder can reject testimony by another witness that is directly to the contrary. A fact finder has the duty to weigh the evidence. In so doing, the fact finder can reject testimony of a witness based on the fact finder's evaluation of that witness, including his/her testimony, his demeanor, his interest in the case or anything else. And the fact finder does not have to state its reasons (though a judge sometimes will). In other words, if one witness say "A" and another witness says "not A," it is not a "stalemate." The fact finder, in this case the judge, can accept the testimony of one witness and reject the testimony of the other. And that testimony alone is sufficient to support a guilty verdict.

And by the way, it is not so easy to lie on the stand. Most people are uncomfortable doing so. And persons that lie on the stand frequently make statements that can be shown to be not credible by a good examiner. And this is so regardless of how smart the witness may be.

Moreover, as a practical matter, absent anything unusual, a judge likely will not discredit an officer in a traffic case involving a minor charge. Judges see policemen every day in court. And, especially in a smaller community, the traffic judges will ofter recognize the traffic officers. Unless a policemen testifies about something that the defense attorney (or defendant) shows to be not credible or shows to be mistaken, or the judge has had prior negative experiences with the officer, the judge is not likely to determine that the officer is lying (based only on a conflict between the testimony of the officer and the defendant) when he deals with the same police force in every case.

Regarding other possible evidence, such as a video recording, there is nothing that requires the prosecution to use that evidence. In fact, in view of the "cattle calls" that the traffic court judge often faces, the judge would rather not have a misdemeanor or a non-criminal traffic charge result a longer proceeding with video. 

However, the defendant usually can ask to see the physical evidence and if there is a video or other physical evidence that is favorable, the defendant can present that evidence. Again, as a practical matter, if the video shows the officer was wrong, the prosecutor will almost certainly drop the case.

None of this is intended to be legal advice or to discuss the myriad of issues that come into play. Just some of my observations about practice v. theory or logic.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

rgordin said:


> I wasn't going to comment further on your analysis because I did not think it would do anything to change your mind.


Then you continue to write a wall of text anyway. 

You have to understand that I'm approaching this from a scientific perspective. The notion that you claim something is true does not make it credible even if you are a subject matter expert or have vast experience in the matter at hand. When Kip Thorne says that black holes behave in XYZ fashion, I'm going to ask what experiments he has to demonstrate that. If a law enforcement officer asserts that someone has committed an infraction, he/she has the burden of proof as the one making the claim. To say the officer's claim is likely true because he/she is an LEO is viciously circular reasoning and a complete non sequitur. Eyewitness testimony is fickle due to each person's memory and their personal biases, so it is thus unreliable scientifically. The fact that the legal system may consider eyewitness testimony reliable under certain conditions does not mean that this conclusion was reached from a scientifically literate standpoint. In 2014 where every cruiser has a dash cam there is no reason why an LEO cannot be held to a stringent standard of evidence.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

SauronHimself said:


> Then you continue to write a wall of text anyway.
> 
> You have to understand that I'm approaching this from a scientific perspective. The notion that you claim something is true does not make it credible even if you are a subject matter expert or have vast experience in the matter at hand. When Kip Thorne says that black holes behave in XYZ fashion, I'm going to ask what experiments he has to demonstrate that. If a law enforcement officer asserts that someone has committed an infraction, he/she has the burden of proof as the one making the claim. To say the officer's claim is likely true because he/she is an LEO is viciously circular reasoning and a complete non sequitur. Eyewitness testimony is fickle due to each person's memory and their personal biases, so it is thus unreliable scientifically. The fact that the legal system may consider eyewitness testimony reliable under certain conditions does not mean that this conclusion was reached from a scientifically literate standpoint. In 2014 where every cruiser has a dash cam there is no reason why an LEO cannot be held to a stringent standard of evidence.


rgordin has 40 years as a lawyer and I have 18. rgordin's wall of text, although lengthy, is spot on. I really don't have a clue what you are trying to say in this post. It seems to me to be mostly mumbo jumbo. Dash cams are good, but they should absolutely not change standards of evidence.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Gregory Taylor said:


> If they dinged you for violating 46.2-821 - failing to stop before entering a highway - then I'm curious why you say that the ticket isn't prepayable. Did something else happen? Did they cite you for something other than 46.2-821? Was there an accident? Other citations?
> 
> The Fall Church gov't webside indicates that you can prepay a ticket issued for running a stop sign:
> 
> ...


I got dinged for 26-109 (3) Fail to Stop (Trail) Bicycle. I've been trying to find the actual law's wording, but haven't found it so far.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Here's the law: "Every person riding a bicycle upon a bikeway, sidewalk, street, highway or roadway has all the rights and is subject to all the duties applicable to the driver of a motor vehicle, except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application. Additionally, every such person shall comply with the following: 
(3)Stop signs. All persons operating a bicycle shall stop at all stop signs."


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Since I got the ticket I've been pondering the way I ride through Falls Church. I commute about 20 miles each way from Fairfax to Washington, DC about four times a week. Falls Church is 1.5 miles, and that section of trail has a lot of intersections, five or six, in those 1.5 miles. So if you're trying to keep your momentum, it seems like a major interruption to have to drop from about 15 mph to a complete stop. Furthermore I've seen a lot of radically dangerous behavior from motorists near the trail lately, so I feel a bit hard done by this ticket. 

Ultimately, I've decided the best approach is to press harder on the sections before and after Falls Church, and approach that section as a recovery section. Sit up, cruise. Drink some water. Stretch. Chill. 

The issues with the trail in that area are not going away, and my goal is always to generate harmony around me on the trail. I use a bell to warn when passing, and am generally a pretty easygoing guy, but that said I feel the issues surrounding bike car stuff are complex, and that the car side doesn't play fair, and oh yeah, they can kill us. I don't see car traffic enforcement of issues that matter to me (failure to yield on left and right turns, speeding over 20 mph above the limit at trail crossings), but to a judge, that is neither here nor there. 

I think I have to take Richard T's advice seriously and see what it would cost to have a lawyer appear for me. Otherwise I'll take the contrite approach.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Tschai said:


> rgordin has 40 years as a lawyer and I have 18. rgordin's wall of text, although lengthy, is spot on. I really don't have a clue what you are trying to say in this post. It seems to me to be mostly mumbo jumbo. Dash cams are good, but they should absolutely not change standards of evidence.


Rgordin is right about how the legal system currently works. My contention is that the standards of evidence need to be modified slightly to account for the fact that it's 2014 and that eyewitness testimony should be taken lightly considering its highly variable nature and that we have a plethora of technology to provide evidence which isn't easily corrupted. Even if I'm recognized in the community as an upstanding citizen who has never committed any crime, my testimony is still hearsay if I cannot produce corroborating evidence to support my assertions. Why an LEO--one who is charged with enforcing and upholding the law--wouldn't be held to the same standard doesn't exactly seem equitable. If you're the one making the assertion that something is true, you are charged with satisfying the burden of proof.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Ok, time out. Under violations it says "It shall be unlawful for any person to violate any of the provisions of this article. Any such violation shall, upon conviction, be punishable by a fine of $25.00". So it looks like $25 bucks and court costs, probably not worth hiring a lawyer. If I appear as contrite as I feel, maybe they'll let me off the hook.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

You sound really sorry, I bet the judge will have mercy. It seems like a total jerk move on the part of the police officer to force a court appearance for a $25 ticket. It seems like the fine is being compounded by his choice to make you appear. Did you make him/her angry??


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> Ok, time out. Under violations it says "It shall be unlawful for any person to violate any of the provisions of this article. Any such violation shall, upon conviction, be punishable by a fine of $25.00". So it looks like $25 bucks and court costs, probably not worth hiring a lawyer. If I appear as contrite as I feel, maybe they'll let me off the hook.


Yes. Direct the judge to read this thread and he should let you off with time served. This has been punishment enough.


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

No. It's just they way the rules are in Falls Church. I called the clerk's office. You have to appear, you can't prepay/waive. The cop actually checked the you can prepay/waive box on the ticket, but you can't. I was pretty annoyed when I got stopped, I'm usually very polite to cops under these types of circumstances, and I fell a bit short of my standards, but I was still respectful. To wit, he asked me if I had any legal justification for what I did, and I said "common sense". That is, I slowed for the intersection, and it was clear.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> No. It's just they way the rules are in Falls Church. I called the clerk's office. You have to appear, you can't prepay/waive.


That bites. I guess they like keeping their judges busy. Good luck. You may actually gain points by telling the judge you actually read this 6 page train wreck of a thread like mentioned above.


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## onespeed (Mar 21, 2002)

*What a BS question for a cop to ask.*

Smartest thing I teach my kids is not to speak voluntarily to police officers ever. They will twist your words to prove their case. 

Make them prove their case without your help.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

onespeed said:


> They will twist your words to prove their case.


Don't the PO and Doping forums do that like ALL THE TIME?


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## tclaremont (Dec 28, 2013)

If he checked the box that you can prepay when in fact you cant, then he completed the ticket incorrectly. I had a ticket tossed out when the officer circled AM instead of PM on the time of the ticket. Thrown out on a technicality? Worth $25?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

tclaremont said:


> If he checked the box that you can prepay when in fact you cant, then he completed the ticket incorrectly. I had a ticket tossed out when the officer circled AM instead of PM on the time of the ticket.


^^Bingo.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I got dinged for 26-109 (3) Fail to Stop (Trail) Bicycle. I've been trying to find the actual law's wording, but haven't found it so far.


Ah! You got ticketed for a violation of the Falls Church Municipal Code. 

ARTICLE IV. BICYCLES

The penalty for a violation is.....$25. Well, this isn't exactly going to be the Scopes Monkey Trial, but there you have it.

Ironically, if they had caught you for not wearing a helmet, the fine would have been suspended for a first time offender. If they assess court costs and a processing fee, my guess is that it will be more than the fine. 

It blows that they don't allow you to prepay that. 

Dress nice (coat, tie, nice slacks), be respectful, call the judge "Your Honor", and answer any questions truthfully. Put "Your Honor" on front or on the back of any statements to the COurt. ("Well, your Honor, it was like this...." or "Yes, your Honor, I was riding my bike..." or "No, your Honor, I won't ever do that again...").

What will probably happen is that you will get lost in the Court house. You may need to check in with the Clerk before the hearing to let them know you are there. All of this should be on the Court website. Once you get to the Courtroom and are seated, you will have to pee. No matter. Court will start before you can find the men's room and your case will be called at some point. Watch what happens in the other cases before yours to see the drill. Generally, when your case is called you will stand, approach the bench where the Judge sits, and the attorney for the county (or possibly just the police officer) will state their side of the story in bare bones terms. The Court will ask for a response or ask you how you plead. (Some courts allow you to plead "Guilty with an explanation" - mitigating factors). You tell your side. Look at the Judge when you talk with him or her. If there are elements of the officer's story that you disagree with, state them succinctly. What the Court does not want is someone (i.e. you) to needlessly waste its time. (Wasting the Court's Time includes raising the argument that the Officer ticked off the box that the fine could be pre-paid.) Come to the point. If you do plead guilty, you can ask the Court to waive the fine - this has already cost you a half a day's worth of vacation time from work. Expect your moment in the spotlight to last about 10 minutes max if you don't plead guilty, 5 minutes max if you do. This is because (1) the Court has seen and heard it all before, and your case is just one of many thousands on the docket, and (2) the Court also knows that you didn't make it to the mens room before the case was called, and they don't want to have the janitorial staff mad at them by dragging out the hearing. In fact, the Judge probably has to take a pee as well, given all that coffee that they sucked down in chambers before the Court was in session. 

Good luck.


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## scott967 (Apr 26, 2012)

Guessing Falls Church feels the need to prove "value added" to its citizens (assume they pay higher taxes for the privilege as compared to Fairfax County) so they create ordinances/procedures like this.

At 25 bucks doubt they will reduce the fine but you never know. I'll also guess the city has marked the trail for enforcement (citizens don't like "out of town" transit) if so court probably wants to hammer you. I used to ride some in NoVa and I think maybe Alexandria is the same way (citizens complain about "out of town" cyclists transiting Old Town).

scott s.
.


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

Be nice to the judge lest you be tossed in the slammer. A purty boy wearing lycra and sporting shaved legs will get passed around in there.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

SauronHimself said:


> Rgordin is right about how the legal system currently works. My contention is that the standards of evidence need to be modified slightly to account for the fact that it's 2014 and that eyewitness testimony should be taken lightly considering its highly variable nature and that we have a plethora of technology to provide evidence which isn't easily corrupted. Even if I'm recognized in the community as an upstanding citizen who has never committed any crime, my testimony is still hearsay if I cannot produce corroborating evidence to support my assertions. Why an LEO--one who is charged with enforcing and upholding the law--wouldn't be held to the same standard doesn't exactly seem equitable. If you're the one making the assertion that something is true, you are charged with satisfying the burden of proof.


Your suggestion that the standards of eyewitness testimony should be altered makes no sense. It's a crazy idea. Eyewitness testimony is often the absolute best form of evidence. Moreover, your testimony would be hearsay only if you testified as to something that someone else told you. For example, your testimony that Tom killed Ron because Susan told you is hearsay. If your testimony is that you saw Tom kill Ron, that is not hearsay and whether there is corroborating evidence to support your assertions can go to the strength of your testimony, but it is not hearsay. That is, even if there was no corroborating evidence, eyewitness testimony is not hearsay. People have correctly been convicted of murder based on one witnesses' testimony.


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## Favorit (Aug 13, 2012)

Yes, a court setting is probably not the best time for a philosophical "who are you to judge me." It's always best to be polite and respectful.


Gregory Taylor said:


> Ah! You got ticketed for a violation of the Falls Church Municipal Code.
> 
> ARTICLE IV. BICYCLES
> 
> ...


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## Madeirafelt (Apr 3, 2014)

Sorry to hear that but if we want respect on the road we all need to live by the same rules as our auto counterparts. They hate us already. :^)

Anyhow, my neighbor blew a stop sign and she was ticketed for running the stop sign. She had been warned multiple times. This time she received a $95 fine but no points added to her license. While riding last Saturday, we saw 3 guys ride through a stop sign. The cop was hiding in plain sight, for us. Woop woop, lights came on and the 3 of them got busted.

I guess you could plead ignorance and he may let you off with a warning. No need to proud to save a buck…..or 95 of them!


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## tornado (Nov 26, 2004)

My neice was on vaccation in the Outer Banks last week with 18 other people. On the way home one of them from NJ got a speeding ticket in VA that he can't argue (he was doing 83). He can't prepay. He has to go back to VA and appear.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> So I rolled through a stop sign at 5-10 mph in Falls Church, Virginia. I got a ticket. I can't prepay the fine even if I want to. I called the court and they said I have to appear and the judge will assess the fine at the hearing, which is next Wednesday.
> 
> Does anyone have any advice or useful information. I'm curious about whether I might get points on my license, what the fine may be, and what I might be able to do to fight it. The intersection was clear with no approaching pedestrian or car traffic and I approached and entered it at a reasonable speed.


WTF is it with Falls Church? Every year in the Spring they have some deputy dumbass from the police force hassling people. I've never seen him, but I enderstand he hides in the bushes. The W&OD bike path runs through Falls Church. So you ran a sign on the path as it crosses a street, right? Did you contemplate just riding off? 

The people who ride in the area, along with the people who drive in the area have a pretty workable relationship. Riders slow down, most cars will stop and let them pass. If a car doesn't stop, the cyclist does. This is rare and there's no reason to come to a complete stop at 3 different intersections within a 100 yards. I've never seen these cops hassle the motorists when they don't stop for a pedestrian (that's a state law). My wife got hassled for not stopping twice last year. the second time the cop asked to see her ID, radioed the info in, but didn't give her a ticket. But she's cuter than you are. 

Maybe you could mention the process that works in the area with cars and bikes? Then again, I'd guess most judges don't have much patience for someone trying to rationalize breaking the law. It sucks though, because no one stops at those intersections. I didn't this morning.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

tornado said:


> My neice was on vaccation in the Outer Banks last week with 18 other people. On the way home one of them from NJ got a speeding ticket in VA that he can't argue (he was doing 83). He can't prepay. He has to go back to VA and appear.


I think the lesson here is to stay out of Virginia. I had to drive my cousin down there as a chaperone for a hearing. His crime? He drive ten feet in the wrong direction on a poorly marked one-way (that was a two way street 11 feet previous). He recognized his mistake and pulled into a parking lot to turn around. The cop actually had the nerve to tell him that he shouldn't have pulled into said parking lot. I suppose this is a common scenario in good old Norfolk. They considered his behavior "reckless" which is why he was required to appear before a judge. Ultimately, he was let off without paying a fine or anything.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

That isn't a speeding ticket. That is a reckless driving ticket. 

§ 46.2-862. Exceeding speed limit. 

A person shall be guilty of reckless driving who drives a motor vehicle on the highways in the Commonwealth (i) at a speed of twenty miles per hour or more in excess of the applicable maximum speed limit or (ii) in excess of eighty miles per hour regardless of the applicable maximum speed limit. 

That is a Class I misdemeanor, with a minimum mandatory fine of $250. That's also a criminal conviction, not just a run of the mill traffic violation. The Court is authorized to throw the person in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.

Frankly, I have no sympathy for the driver on that one. That's too damn fast for a public road.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

It is the same in Old Town Alexandria. When the weather gets nice, the cyclists come out. When the cyclists come out, the locals get annoyed. When the locals in Old Town get annoyed, they call the police. When the police are called they stake out a couple of key intersections and write tickets. 

[Point of reference: I ride though Old Town Alexandria each morning on my way to work. I pass by approximately 12 stop signs as I roll from the very southern tip of Old Town to the North End of town, next to the Airport. No prizes for guessing the number of stop signs that I actually stop at.] 

Then, when the hubbub subsides, the Police go back to what they were doing, and the cyclists go back to running stop signs in Old Town.

Yes, you could easily outrun a bike cop. I got stopped a while back and thought about making the guy chase me. I didn't. I have to go that way every morning on my commute. I got off with a warning.


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

Dear Robot,

So what happened? 


I'm assuming since we haven't heard from you, you are in jail, maybe prison, wherever they put those stop sign runnin' ne'er do wells.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Blackbeerthepirate said:


> Dear Robot,
> 
> So what happened?
> 
> ...


"Dear Fellow Cyclists,

Please send soap-on-a-rope.

Thanks.
Robot."


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

I doubt he ever made it to trial. Most likely he was overtaken by a lynch mob outside the court house.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

My guess is that after his big day in Court he is out there, somewhere, sitting on the Group W bench with all of the other mother-stabbers and father-rapers.

Greg, With An Oblique Reference To Arlo Guthrie's "Alice's Restaurant Massacree"


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Do you think that he has rehabilitated himself?


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

bradkay said:


> Do you think that he has rehabilitated himself?


I hope so. 

I'd love to see more cyclists ticketed for not abiding by road laws.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

ruckus said:


> I'd love to see more cyclists ticketed for not abiding by road laws.


why, what would that accomplish...?

shouldn't law enforcement be focusing on the truly dangerous users of the roadways...?

you know, jaywalkers.


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

Oxtox said:


> why, what would that accomplish...?
> 
> shouldn't law enforcement be focusing on the truly dangerous users of the roadways...?
> 
> you know, jaywalkers.


I suppose?

I still want cyclists ticketed. It's hypocritical for them to expect drivers to abide but they can endanger everyone else by running through reds in busy intersections. I probably will have to be a witness of some idiot cyclist getting crushed. Bound to happen soon, I just know it. And I will be that cyclist that will support the driver, totally cyclists fault.

Don't see what else would get them to stop. Accident isn't good one since the driver will probably be injured, as his car stops suddenly and another behind etc. Mayhem. Eh... unless you have a better idea on how to enforce road laws on cyclists?

That said, I also wish drivers lose their license for 30 days every time they are caught using a cell phone while driving. Maybe exaggeration, but it seems 1/10 cars that pass me is texting... Of course not giving me the 3FT of space either.


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## rebel1916 (Aug 4, 2007)

SauronHimself said:


> Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence. If it's the cop's word against yours, it's a stalemate. The fact that he/she says something happened doesn't mean it did, especially when today a cop can *easily* produce irrefutable forms of evidence like photographs, dash cam videos, or videos from security cameras.


IDK about other states, but here in NY LEOs are considered expert witnesses in the field of observation. Meaning more weight would be given to the eyewitness testimony of a traffic cop than a traffic defendant. My wife always makes snide remarks about being a trained observer when I am oblivious.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

ruckus said:


> I suppose?
> 
> I still want cyclists ticketed. .


Typically though, cyclists are only a small part of the problem and rarely cause major injury to other (as compared to auto's and trucks).

Thus I'd rather see the precious PD resources used against car and truck drivers, as they typically cause many more injuries and deaths.

Which why I get pissed off when the NYPD "cracks down" on cyclists in NYC. Pedestrians and cyclists get mowed down all the time, so spend the taxpayers rmoney where it'll do some good.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Steve B. said:


> Typically though, cyclists are only a small part of the problem and rarely cause major injury to other (as compared to auto's and trucks).
> 
> Thus I'd rather see the precious PD resources used against car and truck drivers, as they typically cause many more injuries and deaths.
> 
> Which why I get pissed off when the NYPD "cracks down" on cyclists in NYC. Pedestrians and cyclists get mowed down all the time, so spend the taxpayers rmoney where it'll do some good.


If it's those Critical Mass/Bike Messenger types that are getting mowed down, I have no issues with the NYPD cracking down on them.


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

Steve B. said:


> Typically though, cyclists are only a small part of the problem and rarely cause major injury to other (as compared to auto's and trucks).


48,000 deaths per year to me defines automobiles as weapons of mass destruction with the current who cares attitude justice system has for vehicular manslaughter, most times driver not even being charged with a crime.

I personally think nationwide there should be zero tolerance. 30 days license suspension for texting and talking on phone first time offender. And 1 year suspension for drunk driving. And both have to appear in court to regain license.
*- The current alternative is 48,000 deaths! 48,000!!!*




Tschai said:


> If it's those Critical Mass/Bike Messenger types that are getting mowed down, I have no issues with the NYPD cracking down on them.


I have no idea about NY. But I have no problem with BPD ticketing these hipsters riding their fixies with plastic rims who have no regard for other cyclists, drivers and pedestrians, in other words, completely self-involved, only I matter attitude.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

ruckus said:


> Don't see what else would get them to stop. Accident isn't good one since the driver will probably be injured, as his car stops suddenly and another behind etc. Mayhem. Eh... unless you have a better idea on how to enforce road laws on cyclists?


mayhem? not being a little overly dramatic are you...? 

I'm fairly unconcerned about riders being targeted for citations...bottom line is that we typically pay the price if our lawlessness results in a collision.

you just seem to be the type of person that can't stand the thought that somewhere, someone is breaking a rule and getting away with it. please tell me that you're not the type who drives in the left lane of the interstate at the posted limit to keep others from speeding.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

Not sure where the 48,000 comes from but according to this

FASTSTATS - Accidents or Unintentional Injuries

that's about 10,000 too high. Looks like we need to go after the rampant poisoning too!


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

probably from here. Scroll down to the bike section and it's 48k injured or killed per year. It only goes back to 2011 with 677 deaths that year.

Pedestrian & Bicycle Information Center


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

So that's 13,920 *INJURIES *caused by cars. If we can assume the same percentages for the deaths that would be 195 caused by a motor vehicle. This is no where near as sensational as 48,000 though is it. The number I posted above was all auto related deaths. While I agree there is a problem, the cost of ticketing every infraction will not reap the benefits supposed by some. 

Thanks for the link


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

yeah but how many of the injuries are crippling or severely debilitating? I don't know. For all I know a lot of these people could be in comas but they are officially not dead. Yeah even 1 death is to many.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

Exactly no one knows. When we say things like 48,000 people died last year due to these WMD's though it often negates our argument. I've been hit by a car and I don't wish it on anyone but I always try to stay close to the facts. I personally think a driver should have a good reason for using a 4 wheeled vehicle. I commute exclusively on 2 wheels (motorcycle or bicycle) and I can't see why people need to drive around all over the place with an empty car. But that's a different thread


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## Robot Ceiling Man (Jul 27, 2011)

I thought pretty hard about the situation. What I decided is that:
1) I have a ~20 mile commute
2) Falls Church is 1.5 miles and has like 5 stop signs.
3)I needed to make a choice about how I wanted to behave in the future either a) keep riding aggressively to try to keep my momentum all the way through Falls Church or
b)just slow down through Falls Church, try to go a bit faster before and after to make up the time
4)I chose B, and went to court and did a not wonderful job of explaining that to the judge, erring a bit too much on the side of being brief. 
5)He fined me $50 plus court costs. The total was $115.
6)Since this incident I've come to realize that because of the W&OD I have very few stops that I have to make, so I just take them much more conservatively overall. That said, if there is no oncoming traffic at all, I do not even slow down. But if there is any traffic, I slow down to a crawl and or stop, unless they are obviously yielding to me.

I used to be a bicycle messenger, and won three alleycat races in DC in my heyday. I'm really, really good at running intersections without getting hit, and without cutting anyone off, and since I take pride in that ability it isn't something I find easy to turn off. But I've decided that I'm 44, I'm not a messenger, and I should just chill out. So I'm trying. It seems to be making my commutes less stressful, and more harmonious. 

TLDR: I think the notion that stopping a few times through Falls Church is some kind of inconvenience to me is not really an idea worth holding on to, in the face of the fact that that community seems to really want cyclists to ride slowly through there.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I used to be a bicycle messenger, and won three alleycat races in DC in my heyday. I'm really, really good at running intersections without getting hit, and without cutting anyone off, and since I take pride in that ability it isn't something I find easy to turn off. But I've decided that I'm 44, I'm not a messenger, and I should just chill out.


And, since you're a 44 year old adult, perhaps it's good to obey the traffic laws.

Good to see you're out of the "pen".


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> I thought pretty hard about the situation. What I decided is that:
> 1) I have a ~20 mile commute
> 2) Falls Church is 1.5 miles and has like 5 stop signs.
> 3)I needed to make a choice about how I wanted to behave in the future either a) keep riding aggressively to try to keep my momentum all the way through Falls Church or
> ...


Well, sorry about the Out-Of-Wallet experience. You probably did about as well as you could expect. 

A former bike messenger? Mucho respect for anyone who makes (or made) their daily bread on two wheels. 

Gotta agree that, if you aren't doing the courier thing any more, it doesn't make sense to keep riding agressively and run the risks associated with making quick drops in an urban setting. Not to suggest that 44 is over the hill, it just means that you should take advantage of the knowledge base that you have built up, weigh the risks (which include $115 dollar days in Court), and ride smart. 

I too have a 20+ mile commute round trip that takes me down MUTs and through urban areas with lots of stop signs. It used to be that me and a few friends would kick out the jams and get in a GREAT workout during the commute. Not any more. The volume of people using the trails has increased, and it just isn't worth it running the risk of nailing a jogger or a wobbly biker because I want to keep my HR in a particular zone. Those kinds of rides are now done on weekends, out on the road, not a bike trail or urban setting. My commutes have become far more mellow, basically enjoying the scenery and digging the ride. I'm not as wiped as I used to be when I get home. Different, but all good. 

Anyway, have a good one.


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

Gregory Taylor said:


> A former bike messenger? Mucho respect for anyone who makes (or made) their daily bread on two wheels.


Talking to people who have lived in SF, NYC, Philadelphia etc, the reason why cyclists are so hated are because of them. Not the ever-day commuter... No one cares if they are good enough to dodge pedestrians or cars, still a nuisance.

In my state, there are bills put forth to provide more safety for cyclists and accountability on the driver, but the legislators believe these bills will only protect and allow a-hole cyclist to be even bigger a-holes. So I have very little faith these bills will be passed. So yes, so much admiration and respect for people who can dodge pedestrians and cars blowing through intersections and riding selfishly, believing their inconvenience of having to follow road laws is more important than everyone else on the road.


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## dubdryver (Aug 21, 2009)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> Thanks, I'll be sure to never frequent this useless forum that is full of trolls ever again.


I too don't post that often, but really...because you didn't get the miracle solution to breaking the law. After all, you did break the law. There is no reason to be sulky over some of the responses you get! I am pretty sure there are people around you that you'd consider friends and family that made very similar statements, but most likely received different feedback from you. In which case, be a jerk consistently, to them as well and refuse to take ownership of your mistakes and mishaps, and criticize everyone for responses you don't like.


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## cohenfive (Jul 20, 2005)

Don't run a stop sign and you won't have this problem, and everyone will be safer as well.


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## ronbo613 (Jan 19, 2009)

Robot Ceiling Man said:


> So I rolled through a stop sign at 5-10 mph in Falls Church, Virginia. I got a ticket. I can't prepay the fine even if I want to. I called the court and they said I have to appear and the judge will assess the fine at the hearing, which is next Wednesday.


You got screwed, big time. The law should apply to everyone else, not to you. You should fight the ticket all the way to the Supreme Court.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

ronbo613 said:


> You got screwed, big time. The law should apply to everyone else, not to you. You should fight the ticket all the way to the Supreme Court.


Nah, he should just allow himself to be punished because the criminal law system and one's right to a vigorous and just defense are really not pillars of our society.

Benjamin Franklin once said:

"People that commit crimes, most of the time should not have committed them, but once they have, most of the time they should defend themselves as if they haven't."


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Dies it really matter since he paid the fine and has rethought his approach to biking through Falls Church?


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