# Super-Maxing on Heart Rate - Dangerous?



## SBH1973 (Nov 21, 2002)

Just thought I'd get some thoughts about bringing the heart rate up - way way up - every now and then. 

I'm 37 years old, in very good condition (at least relative to the general population), but by no means an athlete - not even, really, a weekend warrior. I hit the gym a couple times a week and put on maybe 100-125 miles a week on the road bike in the summer, averaging somewhere between 18.5 and 20.5 mph on solo rides and a heart rate of 155-165 BPM, depending on how hard I push it, on my standard 28 mile ride. Occasionally I bring my heart rate up to 175-180 BPM for 30 seconds or so, which I'm comfortable with. It takes less than a minute to get back down to 150 or so. But there's this one hill on my ride - about 23 miles in - that I just like to kill. It's about 1/3 mile at 5% maybe. I hit it at about 25 mph and like to reach the top at 20+ mph. Now, if I catch it just right and am in the right gear, I can do this pretty easily, reaching maybe 185 BPM, which should be around my max I would think. But the other day I decided to try to get to the top at 25 mph and just went all out. As I approached the top I looked down and the Garmin was reading 198 BPM! I was way out of breath, but not feeling too bad at the top - kind of psyched, actually, because it was a new personal record for me. Still, I felt I probably overdid it. 

So, is this kind of thing dangerous for a guy my age? I'm thinking about stuff like this more now that I'm married with a kid. But I still love to go out and push myself to the max every now and then.

Any thoughts?


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

No. Do more things like this and you will get faster.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

SBH1973 said:


> So, is this kind of thing dangerous for a guy my age?


No. If it was then the Masters 45+ and 55+ category races would require an entire fleet of trailing ambulances and hearses.

Unless you have a heart condition there's no danger to going as hard as you can. You may puke but that's about it. The body and mind have a host of failsafe mechanisims that prevent you from going so hard that you explode a healthy heart.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

ericm979 said:


> No. If it was then the Masters 45+ and 55+ category races would require an entire fleet of trailing ambulances and hearses.
> 
> *Unless you have a heart condition there's no danger to going as hard as you can. You may puke but that's about it. *The body and mind have a host of failsafe mechanisims that prevent you from going so hard that you explode a healthy heart.


+one!!!


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## SBH1973 (Nov 21, 2002)

*Thanks....*

...that's encouraging. No, no history of heart problems here. I just haven't been pushing myself like I used to, but would like to start going all out more often.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Oh man you have no idea what "super-max" means ... until your vision shrinks to a gray tunnel and your dearly departed pappy reaching down to you from a bright light... you're not going all-out.

I know a lady racer who broke her frame in a crash... solo... on a clean road... because she was doing intervals and passed out. Don't go quite that hard, mmkay?


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Your rides are short, so you have little risk of overtraining. Go ahead and throw in all out intervals. 

If at some point you get interested in racing look into sweet spot training or (SST) when you add a few more miles to your ride. 

And I'm the same age as the OP. There are guys in their 50's that kill it, so we got a long way to go before we can claim to be too old for hard workouts.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Make sure it wasn't just a bad HR reading. My monitor goes wonky, especially early in a ride when the strap is not wet from sweat. It will read 240+ sometimes and I won't even be winded. Electrical powerlines can sometimes mess with your monitor as well depending on the brand.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SBH1973 said:


> As I approached the top I looked down and the Garmin was reading 198 BPM!


No need for exclamation marks. All that means is that your max heart rate is probably around 200, or slightly higher. I hope you don't assume your maximum heart rate is in any way whatsoever related to those formulas about maximum heart rate. Those formulas give averages, and are entirely meaningless for an individual. I am about ten years older than you are, and my max heart rate is about 200 as well.

If you were riding based on heart rate, and using one of those average formulas as a guide, you've probably been riding too easy. And, no, if your heart is healthy, you cannot over-stress it by training hard. You'll be forced to slow down once you're at the limit. There is no such thing as a "super-maxed" heart rate. Unless you're on drugs, that is...


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

"a guy your age-37" Don't worry about it unless there are specific reasons to be concerned that you have a heart issue. Getting a good stress test for a base line for future reference may be prudent. I'm 65 and will peg out the heart-o-meter or close to it several times a week. My problem is pegging out and not blowing up but recovering-back to the intervals


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## Schmack (Mar 25, 2009)

What everyone else has said is 100%! OP, you should also check the HR data on whatever software you load your Garmin into. My gets quirky sometimes and my max HR jumps to 250+, especially during really hard efforts. Not sure if this is possible at all! If I look closely at the data, it does seem a bit off. It only occurs for a split second. For reference my max is 186.


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## 41ants (Jul 24, 2007)

Have you consulted with your primary or a cardiologist, perhaps you should? I would and do, but I have very easy access to few of them, so it's no hassle at all


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## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

if you didn't cramp up during or after, start losing mental acuity (like the aforementioned passing out lady), puke more than a little, or have some kind of other notable post-effort negative effect, then as said prior, all you did was make yourself stronger.


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## SBH1973 (Nov 21, 2002)

My Garmin does occasionally shoot to 240, but this 198 was, I'm fairly certain, where my heart rate was at. I think it could have gone a little higher still, but I backed off when I saw it. I then watched it drop down to the low 190s, high 180s, etc, until it was back to the mid-150s, where I'm normally at on a faster ride.

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement. I used to not think about these things at all...


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## SBH1973 (Nov 21, 2002)

Oh, and yes, I did use the 220 minus age as a kind of rough estimate of where my heart rate should be! Silly me.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

SBH1973 said:


> Oh, and yes, I did use the 220 minus age as a kind of rough estimate of where my heart rate should be! Silly me.


my max on a bike is at least 16-17 bpm higher than the formular. It would be higher depending on the sports activity. The more muscles you engage the higher the hear rate. Running would be higher than cycling for example. For me and I suspect most cyclist the problem isn't developing the aerobic system, but developing the muscles to drive and maintain the HR. Max HR is a function of whether you have a larger heart beating slower or smaller heart beating faster. Watch the HR numbers displayed on TdF riders this July and see the difference among various riders. There can be 20 bpm difference.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't wear my heart rate strap now and got my personal best times on climbs..
When HR number is available I tend look and think, oh my god 185bpm, I kind of back off here and there.

a couple times I threw up in my mouth as I crested the top, so there are other metrics available


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## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

The key is some form of consistency (meaning don't get off the bike for a week, and get back on your regular routine were you push the envelope hitting those redzones right off the bat). There's a lot of factors that change one's stress conditions, which affects the cardiovascular system - stress at work, change of condition which can relate to age, hence the regular heart checkups, and what I've alluded to, which is ride layoffs were you don't ride the bike for a while. 

Here's another scenario which became very personal. Let's say you've been consistent with the rides and training, and you're hitting your zone 5's lets say for a few seconds or so, then you say get into a club ride where you're redlining for a longer period of time just to hang with the top guys (say on a longer and steeper climb) then that could spell trouble. I know of a long time cyclist who rides 3x a week, got into a ride with steep (15% ave) gradients, sustained for about 5 miles, he crested the climb but passed out and never got back. Saddest day of my cycling experience.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

If an unhealthy couch potato goes out one random day and works out super hard and maxes out they might run the risk of injury... simply because they haven't stressed their heart in that fashion before.. if ever. 

Athletes are different.. We regularly stress our hearts and prep them for more demanding use.. As long as you don't have a preexisting condition you'll be fine maxing out. You can't exceed your max heart rate.. since whatever number you manage to hit is theoretically your "max" heart rate. 

As an aside... I'm 28.. I regularly hit the high 190's.. during the season I don't see as high of a heart rate while training. In the off season If I really work hard I'll see higher max rates. So during my peak my heart is slower. I'm guessing from built up fatigue. I still set my max for 200 since I know I can hit it.. but haven't in a while.


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## AGT (Jun 20, 2011)

SBH1973 - There are a couple of thinks to takes into consideration related to your RPM. Here a bullet point list that would help.

1. Your MHR (maximum hearth rate) should be fairly computed by 220 less your age, resulting in 183. BPM from 40% to 60-65% (it depend of any hearth condition you may have, if any) is the fat burning phase, which should not increase your ability to improve your race or your cardiovascular strength. From 65% and over your are training your cardiovascular system, being 90% a little aggressive if holding by to much time.

2. If you want to push yourself to get a better strength I recommend to maintain your MHR in 85% for more time, but not over 85%. Example, if normally you hit the road 1 hour that include 3 or 4 dashes of 4 minutes at 85%, instead to increase your MPH (which will result in an increase in your MHR), you should include additional dashes of 3 minutes at 85%, let say 6 dashes. By this way you'll reduce your overall run time, and train your heart. This is the essence of the interval training. If you try it for around 1 or 2 months, you will be able to race your hill at a better time with a safety level of your HR.

3. When your train your muscle you can feel free to get extra limits your reps or your weight in time to time, but when you train your heart you should be little smarter. An extra push could be serious to your health. 

4. Forget about your age, focus on your training and diet, at 37 your doing things that 21 kids don't.

Remember at the finish line could be beer....and the blond and brunette Boston G is dreaming to kiss your cheeks both at the same time.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

AGT said:


> SBH1973 - There are a couple of thinks to takes into consideration related to your RPM. Here a bullet point list that would help.
> 
> 1. Your MHR (maximum hearth rate) should be fairly computed by 220 less your age, resulting in 183. BPM from 40% to 60-65% (it depend of any hearth condition you may have, if any) is the fat burning phase, which should not increase your ability to improve your race or your cardiovascular strength. From 65% and over your are training your cardiovascular system, being 90% a little aggressive if holding by to much time.


The formulas only produce averages with a 10-12 beat standard deviation.

With a 12 bpm SD there's only a 68% chance his maximum heart rate is somewhere between 171 and 195. He has a 14% chance of 159 - 171 and 14% for 195 - 207. Actually observing 198 suggests at least one standard deviation beyond average.

Going through the trouble of a Maximum Aerobic Power test would nail that down but still not provide much help in determining training zones since lactate heart rate varies from perhaps 75-95% of maximum.

Taking 90% of (220 - age) I end up with a pace that's a little below my estimated lactate threshold and not too bad for 30-45 minutes.

Meaningful training zones need to be based on a recent aerobic best effort. Friel approximates LTHR as the average over the last 20 minutes of an all-out 30 minute effort. Coggan uses a pair of 8 minute efforts which are easier to accommodate psychologically and logistically.

Using Friel's zones you'd end up with 
Zone 1 Less than 81% of LTHR
Zone 2 81% to 89% of LTHR
Zone 3 90% to 93% of LTHR
Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR
Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR
Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR
Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR

where zone 3 is tempo, zone 4 sub-threshold, and zone 5a supra-threshold.



> 2. If you want to push yourself to get a better strength I recommend to maintain your MHR in 85% for more time, but not over 85%. Example, if normally you hit the road 1 hour that include 3 or 4 dashes of 4 minutes at 85%, instead to increase your MPH (which will result in an increase in your MHR), you should include additional dashes of 3 minutes at 85%, let say 6 dashes. By this way you'll reduce your overall run time, and train your heart. This is the essence of the interval training. If you try it for around 1 or 2 months, you will be able to race your hill at a better time with a safety level of your HR.


If I wanted to increase strength I'd be riding 20 second intervals all-out ignoring heart rate (Friel's zone 5c but heart rate wouldn't reflect the interval due to lag).

If I rode 3 minute intervals using heart rate I'd be looking for 93-96% of my maximum heart rate from the formula and not expect any improvement in my sprinting ability (Friel's zone 5b and lag would still be an issue)

.85 * (220-age) is a pleasant pace for me to go out and ride for a couple of hours (between Friel's heart rate zone 3 and 4 with measured power at an endurance level).


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

heathb said:


> Your rides are short, so you have little risk of overtraining. Go ahead and throw in all out intervals.
> 
> If at some point you get interested in racing look into sweet spot training or (SST) when you add a few more miles to your ride.
> 
> And I'm the same age as the OP. There are guys in their 50's that kill it, so we got a long way to go before we can claim to be too old for hard workouts.


You can definitely over-train at 100-125 miles a week.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*safe*



SBH1973 said:


> So, is this kind of thing dangerous for a guy my age? I'm thinking about stuff like this more now that I'm married with a kid. But I still love to go out and push myself to the max every now and then.
> Any thoughts?


I wouldn't guess. At least get a physical, if not an EKG/stress test. While you'll probably be ok, pushing it as hard as you possibly can may expose the weakness, if there is one. Then again, a guy I do some very hard rides with had a heart attack taking a shower in the morning. 

At 50, I've been riding so hard for so long I assume that doing it yet again won't expose anything new. But, I still got checked out.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> So during my peak my heart is slower. I'm guessing from built up fatigue.


No, most of this has nothing to do with fatigue. On the contrary, with increasing aerobic fitness your heart stroke volume goes up, meaning your heart needs fewer BPM to pump the same amount of blood. This is the reason, by the way, why you should see your resting heart rate drop significantly with increasing fitness. The max heart rate you see will not drop as much, because with better fitness your (sustained) power output will increase as well, requiring higher blood flow volume.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

AGT said:


> 1. Your MHR (maximum hearth rate) should be fairly computed by 220 less your age, resulting in 183.


As has been discussed before, and as Drew explained below in more detail, this is complete and utter nonsense. According to this formula my max HR should be 173, but it's really about 200. I note in parentheses that there is a modified formula for physically fit people/athletes that gives slightly higher MHRs, but even these are still just averages, which have no meaning for an individual.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> I know a lady racer who broke her frame in a crash... solo... on a clean road... because she was doing intervals and passed out. Don't go quite that hard, mmkay?


Jealous.


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## anotherbrian (Mar 2, 2006)

*Max HR lowering with increased fitness?*

Does this mean your max heart rate decreases though?

7 years ago +/- I had a stress test done on a treadmill. Fast walk/slow jog pace with increasing slope. My MHR was measured at 197. I was cycling fit at the time, but hadn't run in years. I know MHR can vary by activity, but I used it for cycling anyways.

This past January, on one of my first rides after not being on the bike for 2mo over the holidays, I hit a MHR of 199. On only a few occasions had I hit the 197 MHR in the prior years, and I assumed it was creeping down with age. The 199 MHR day I was chasing someone up a hill close to home, so was willing to put everything into it, and did suffer tunnel vision at the top.

I'd been using the 197 MHR since it was measured as the basis for my training zones, and while I thought it was optimistic as I got older, I left it there. I've wondered if I should readjust to 199 since it was (I believe accurately) measured in the last ~6 months, or if that higher number reflected a loss of fitness from the holidays, and I should stick with the 197 (I hit 196 on that hill today, and probably had more in me).



Pirx said:


> No, most of this has nothing to do with fatigue. On the contrary, with increasing aerobic fitness your heart stroke volume goes up, meaning your heart needs fewer BPM to pump the same amount of blood.


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## j.carney.tx (Jun 15, 2011)

PoorCyclist said:


> a couple times I threw up in my mouth as I crested the top, so there are other metrics available


Lol! I did this last week! Well, got as high as the back of throat before I was able to force it back down. It was 100F and I guess I thought that hill didn't hurt enough, so I circle around and did it again. Only made it about 2/3 before the stomach protested (methinks too much; I was FINE, dammit!)


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