# Can't move my seat back enough



## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

I just bought a new Cannondale Synapse and I'm having a hard time with my fitting. I did the basic fitting before rolling out of the shop, but after a few rides my knees were pretty sore. I decided to alter my position a bit to relieve that. I got my saddle height right, but then I tried the KOPS method. Unfortunately, I can't move my seat back enough to get my knee in the right place. I know KOPS is just a rule of thumb, but having my knee extended about 2-3 cm in front of the pedal axle bothers / worries me. My saddle has pretty long rails and my post has some setback so I don't think I can really do something to correct that situation. 

Is this really a cause for concern? The rest of my fit seems very good and I am pretty sure I bougth the right sized frame, considering how much I looked like a little boy on his dad's bike with the bigger frame. I guess my long femurs are the problem.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Post with more setback? They're made.

KOPS is only a rough guide. What's important is comfort and making power.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Seems like if your knees extend 2-3 cm in front of the pedal spindles at 9 o'clock, and you've got the saddle jammed all the way back, the frame is one size too small.  The next size up would have a slacker seat tube, increasing the set back.

So what are we talking about? Height, inseam length, bike seat post length, and top tube if angled down?

When taking measurement, are you all the way back on the saddle? Just sayin. Lots of riders don't pay attention where they're sitting when taking set back measurements, and it could account for a 1 or 2 cm mistake.


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## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

Well moving my butt allllll the way back on the saddle (almost to the edge) puts my knees in the right place. However, because of the saddle slope I tend to slide back foward a bit to a more natural spot. My saddle is currently level, I could try to make it slope backward but I think this would be a pretty good way to crush my man parts, which is not something I really want to do!


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## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

ericm979 said:


> Post with more setback? They're made.
> 
> KOPS is only a rough guide. What's important is comfort and making power.


Here's my bike: Synapse Carbon Ultegra - SYNAPSE CARBON - ENDURANCE ROAD - ROAD - BIKES - 2015 

I think the post already has a lot of setback.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

ToiletSiphon said:


> Well moving my butt allllll the way back on the saddle (almost to the edge) puts my knees in the right place. However, because of the saddle slope I tend to slide back foward a bit to a more natural spot. My saddle is currently level, I could try to make it slope backward but I think this would be a pretty good way to crush my man parts, which is not something I really want to do!


Saddle level, that's good. Tilted down slightly as you know bounces the butt forward onto the nose and hurts the taint. "All the way back" means firmly planting the sit bones on the widest part of the saddle. Nobody sits that way all the time, but that's where the "default" position should be. Quite natural to move forward on the saddle when really pushing hard, like climbing or sprinting.


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## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

Typically, what problems/pains would be caused by a knee too far foward ?


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

ToiletSiphon said:


> I think the post already has a lot of setback.


You can find posts with more setback than that. Also that post has a clamp that extends fairly far forward. Some posts have shorter clamps which at the same setback (measured at the middle of the clamp) would let the saddle slide farther back. What you want to look for is not the setback spec but where the front of the clamp ends.

You can also find seats with rails that go farther forward than that seat. It has fairly short usable section of the rails.


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## rsdowdy (Aug 5, 2014)

Can you adjust your shoe cleats a little as well?


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## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

No, my heel would pass to close to the rear triangle.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

ToiletSiphon said:


> Typically, what problems/pains would be caused by a knee too far foward ?


1. too much weight on the hands.
2. glutes not used enough; quads used too much.

#1 may not be an issue for you if you have unusualy long thighs.

generally sprinters want the seat more forward; farther back is better for seated climbing.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

You need a new seatpost, but don't go crazy and spend a ton of money. Aluminum seatposts work just as well as carbon ones. Do some research and find one with a large amount of setback. I used to jam my saddles back as far as they could go until I found one with a huge amount of setback. This allowed my to move the saddle to the middle of the rails. The one I got is out of production now, so you'll have to do your own legwork. (of ask here about posts that were bought in the last 2 or 3 years)


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

ToiletSiphon said:


> Here's my bike: Synapse Carbon Ultegra - SYNAPSE CARBON - ENDURANCE ROAD - ROAD - BIKES - 2015
> 
> I think the post already has a lot of setback.


Spec shows as "Cannondale C3" seat post. It has some setback but looks to be about 20mm. There are other seat posts with 32mm setback which I have one by FSA. Yeah, I have long femur and had to deal with the same situation as yours.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Here's a fitting video for those with longer than average femur.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I'm gonna be the contrarian.

ToiletSiphon's seat angle isn't the problem.

I agree with Lennard Zinn's observations as a long time framebuilder.

I also wonder whether you haven't allowed sufficient time to adapt to the fit of the new bike. What was your previous bike that you didn't have such problems?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

ToiletSiphon said:


> Typically, what problems/pains would be caused by a knee too far foward ?


Well, I've never experienced pain having the knee 1-2 cm forward of the pedal spindle. What causes pain is muscles and skeletal structure not working efficiently with the bike. I'd say saddle height is the usual culprit of pains in knee, back of knee, not to mention strange pressure points in the taint. 

Saddle set back can be learned by the legs and comfortably performed at any angles they can handle. Recumbents for example. Rider exerts the same power working the body in totally different positioning than a race bike.

I have short femurs for my proportions, so a 74 or 75 degree seat tube is perfect. It gets me right up over the crank. Every time I go from my more laid back commuter bike, I immediately notice how I can deliver more power on it at fast cadences than on the commuter. A plumb bob from the bottom of knee drops a cm. in front of the pedal spindle.

You say you have long femurs, so yeah, seems like a bit furthur set back provides a little more room for the femurs to go up and down, but then again, they'll find a comfortable geometry turning the crank around, if the saddle height is correct. I guess if the knees are 2 cm in front of the pedal spindle, you might feel extra stress in the knees, but if the legs are delivering the power efficiently, saddle height is the thing to play with, not set back.

Basically, set back varies. Trackies are probably knees in front of spindles perched atop their 75 degree seat posts, and they deliver the most awesome power of any of the pros. OTOH, roadies like to push their saddles all the way back, so they get a nice extension in their quads. That works for power in each stroke. But when push comes to shove, everybody goes forward up on the nose of the saddle and just stomp on that crank. Can't do that if you're too far back. :yesnod:

You could tilt the saddle slightly up in front, so that the back is almost flat, only slightly turned up. I did this for years, until extending reach. Now saddle nose is just 2 mm higher than back of saddle.

What pains are you having?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> You need a new seatpost, but don't go crazy and spend a ton of money. Aluminum seatposts work just as well as carbon ones. Do some research and find one with a large amount of setback. I used to jam my saddles back as far as they could go until I found one with a huge amount of setback. This allowed my to move the saddle to the middle of the rails. The one I got is out of production now, so you'll have to do your own legwork. (of ask here about posts that were bought in the last 2 or 3 years)


Yer a maverick, Grumps. Here's what Lennard Zinn thinks about that:

_Bikes with the saddle way back over the rear wheel are very light in the front end; ride a steep climb seated on one and you’ll be pulling wheelies the whole way up. And in a criterium, with so much of your weight over the rear wheel, combined with a tall stock bike’s steep head angle and too much fork rake for that angle, the bike will oversteer while at the same time washing out the front wheel due to lack of weight on it.
Read more at Technical FAQ with Lennard Zinn: Why tall bikes often handle poorly - VeloNews.com_


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

ToiletSiphon said:


> I just bought a new Cannondale Synapse and I'm having a hard time with my fitting. I did the basic fitting before rolling out of the shop, but after a few rides my knees were pretty sore. I decided to alter my position a bit to relieve that. I got my saddle height right, but then I tried the KOPS method. Unfortunately, I can't move my seat back enough to get my knee in the right place. I know KOPS is just a rule of thumb, but having my knee extended about 2-3 cm in front of the pedal axle bothers / worries me. My saddle has pretty long rails and my post has some setback so I don't think I can really do something to correct that situation.
> 
> Is this really a cause for concern? The rest of my fit seems very good and I am pretty sure I bougth the right sized frame, considering how much I looked like a little boy on his dad's bike with the bigger frame. I guess my long femurs are the problem.


I would call into question your measurement of the position of your knee. The normal range for knee position is KOPS +1 to -3 cm, but you say you're "+ 2-3 cm" That suggests you don't have a very good fix on the measurement. The real question is how the ride feels to you. Do you feel like you're "way in front of the cranks" when you pedal? If your measurement is correct then you are indeed way in front and you should be able to feel that - it should be easy to spin and hard to apply power at low RPM.

If indeed your measurement is correct then I agree with the statement that the frame is too small or has too steep a seat tube for your body dimensions.


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## Wafa (Aug 22, 2014)

Maybe, you are too far rearward and need to come forward a bit, and see how long your legs are and measure how high or low your saddle and where it is on the rails.


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## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

Kerry Irons said:


> I would call into question your measurement of the position of your knee. The normal range for knee position is KOPS +1 to -3 cm, but you say you're "+ 2-3 cm" That suggests you don't have a very good fix on the measurement. The real question is how the ride feels to you. Do you feel like you're "way in front of the cranks" when you pedal? If your measurement is correct then you are indeed way in front and you should be able to feel that - it should be easy to spin and hard to apply power at low RPM.
> 
> If indeed your measurement is correct then I agree with the statement that the frame is too small or has too steep a seat tube for your body dimensions.


You may be right about my measurements. I never felt with my legs that I was really in front of my pedals, I was just looking for an explanation for my pain, which may have been caused by a saddle a tiny bit too high. I did however feel that I was putting too much pressure on my hands, which could have been caused either by my position or by the fact that my saddle was making me slide forward.

I went to the LBS yesterday and re-did the measurement with the proper tools, after lowering a bit my saddle and tilting up its nose. With my seat all the way back, its nose tilted up a bit, and me sitting closer to the back edge of the saddle, the front of my pedal spindle comes a few mm behind the front of my knee. That puts the middle of the spindle just behind my kneecap (in line with the bony protrusion under my knee), which is pretty much what I’m trying to achieve.

The ride back home did feel better. It removed quite a lot of weight from my hands and I finally felt that almost everything was correct, except that the back of the saddle is not as comfortable and it rubs a little on my thighs. But at that point, comfort of my butt is not my priority, avoiding repetitive stress injuries is, as I am very prone to them. My knees do feel better today than they did the days after my previous rides, so that’s a good sign.

Eventually, I might look for a longer and narrower saddle, with longer rails, that would allow me to be more comfortable in the same position. But I think I’ll stick to what I have for the 6-7 weeks remaining to the season, increasing the mileage very gradually.


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## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

bvber said:


> Spec shows as "Cannondale C3" seat post. It has some setback but looks to be about 20mm. There are other seat posts with 32mm setback which I have one by FSA. Yeah, I have long femur and had to deal with the same situation as yours.


Can you give me the model? That might come in handy if I decide to change eventually. Thanks!


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

ToiletSiphon said:


> You may be right about my measurements. I never felt with my legs that I was really in front of my pedals, I was just looking for an explanation for my pain, which may have been caused by a saddle a tiny bit too high. I did however feel that I was putting too much pressure on my hands, which could have been caused either by my position or by the fact that my saddle was making me slide forward.
> 
> I went to the LBS yesterday and re-did the measurement with the proper tools, after lowering a bit my saddle and tilting up its nose. With my seat all the way back, its nose tilted up a bit, and me sitting closer to the back edge of the saddle, the front of my pedal spindle comes a few mm behind the front of my knee. That puts the middle of the spindle just behind my kneecap (in line with the bony protrusion under my knee), which is pretty much what I’m trying to achieve.
> 
> The ride back home did feel better. It removed quite a lot of weight from my hands and I finally felt that almost everything was correct, except that the back of the saddle is not as comfortable and it rubs a little on my thighs. But at that point, comfort of my butt is not my priority, avoiding repetitive stress injuries is, as I am very prone to them. My knees do feel better today than they did the days after my previous rides, so that’s a good sign...



If your still concerned about potential pain from tilting your seat up, and you tend to favor sitting further back in the saddle (I recently went through a similar situation as you), you may want to consider a more concave saddle, which has a high rear section, like the fizik Aliantes, or Selle SMPs. My cheapie "Forte" had a fairly high back (since moved to fizik Kurve Bull):


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> Yer a maverick, Grumps. Here's what Lennard Zinn thinks about that:
> 
> _Bikes with the saddle way back over the rear wheel are very light in the front end; ride a steep climb seated on one and you’ll be pulling wheelies the whole way up. And in a criterium, with so much of your weight over the rear wheel, combined with a tall stock bike’s steep head angle and too much fork rake for that angle, the bike will oversteer while at the same time washing out the front wheel due to lack of weight on it.
> Read more at Technical FAQ with Lennard Zinn: Why tall bikes often handle poorly - VeloNews.com_


Might be true if you ride in an upright position. Never had a problem with the front end feeling light. Most severe climbs are done out of the saddle. 
People who ride in one position on the saddle, are missing the ability to use different muscle groups. With hard efforts, I tend to slide forward and spin faster. At a constant pace, or gentle climbs, I slide back, and spin at 80-85 rpm.
Zinn may be the master of many subjects, but nobody is right all the time.
.
Everybody needs the ability to slide way back.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

toiletsiphon said:


> can you give me the model?


fsa sb32.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

bvber said:


> Spec shows as "Cannondale C3" seat post. It has some setback but looks to be about 20mm. There are other seat posts with 32mm setback which I have one by FSA. Yeah, I have long femur and had to deal with the same situation as yours.


I'm a person who needs a lot of setback (long femurs + personal preference), and that FSA seems to be the biggest setback of the upscale seat posts. I'm about to buy one myself. I can make my current ~20-25mm setback post work, but only if I put my preferred saddles way back on the rails. 

For alloy seatposts, Velo Orange has one with 30mm setback, which is a very nice looking post and not too spendy. I have one on my modern build retro frame and am very happy with the looks, function and value.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

Without going through the thread, I'll name the only two with extra setback. Selcof Bi Position and some of the carbon Look ergo post. CANOTTO SELLA SELCOF BI-POSITION :: Cicli Corradini


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

If you go to Velo Orange they have a 32mm setback post.


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## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

My seatpost is a 25.4 mm. Turns out almost nobody makes seatposts of that dimension with a lot of setback... The most I have found is 20mm while mine is 15mm


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

25.4/27.2/28.6/30.8/31.6x250,300,350,450mm MTB Bicycle Bike Seatpost Seat Post


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

Road Bike Aluminum Alloy Seatpost Seat Post MTB Bicycle Bike 25 4 x 300mm Silver | eBay


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## magnolia628 (Oct 29, 2006)

Just got GURU fitting, where power and cadence are measured as the machine changes your position. It is very clear - getting your body back where at the most forward part of the pedal stroke the top of your tibia, just under your kneecap, is a perfect plumb line to the center of the pedal. The difference between a cramped position and the perfect open position is significant - more than 60%! And you can watch as your power output changes with each centimeter.

For a long femur like mine, it can be a challenge to get the bike setup correctly where your body is back far enough. Getting a seat post with a large setback and a long seat will help. But as the machine showed, the improvement won't just be in comfort, I will be much faster.

Be careful with your knees, not too far over or behind your pedals. When you get older, you'll want them back.


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