# Hincapie: with friends like these...



## 55x11

... who needs enemies?

Why did american-leadership "friends" chased down big George? Are they that jealous of another american taking the yellow? Bizarre...


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## Derailer

He was pissed off.


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## Slow Eddie

Yeah he was.


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## CarbonJoe

Yeah, Big George was pretty bummed that Astana and Garmin were pulling the peloton along.


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## phrisbee

Wasn't Astana leading only when there was a very comfortable gap? They didn't pull the field back for the most part. What are they supposed to do, let him get 10 minutes on the field when they have 2 or 3 GC contenders?

Edit: maybe I missed it, my friend says Astana was at the front near 10k to go.


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## cyclejim

I understand why he is angry however I yelled at the tv more than once wondering why he was near the back of his group looking around at the other riders. If you want the yellow you need to have your head down riding for your life. Sorry George you have no one to blame but yourself.


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## 88 rex

He whines too much. In the first week it was that nobody else was working, and now nobody will let him win. 

His own teammates could have sat back a little there at the end also. 

It's not a group ride, it's racing.....and for those guys it's literally business.


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## 55x11

cyclejim said:


> I understand why he is angry however I yelled at the tv more than once wondering why he was near the back of his group looking around at the other riders. If you want the yellow you need to have your head down riding for your life. Sorry George you have no one to blame but yourself.


He did majority of work at the front in the breakaway, and was forcing others to help out. There were 11 other guys there, you know.


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## Fredke

cyclejim said:


> If you want the yellow you need to have your head down riding for your life. Sorry George you have no one to blame but yourself.


Hincapie did about 25% of the pulling for a 180+ km break. By the end, no matter how much he wanted yellow, his legs weren't for matching the accelerations of the sprinters who had been sitting on the back of the breakaway doing no work for hours.


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## Fredke

55x11 said:


> Why did american-leadership "friends" chased down big George?


The simplest explanation, ATMO, is that deals were made for assistance in the mountains.


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## 55x11

88 rex said:


> He whines too much. In the first week it was that nobody else was working, and now nobody will let him win.
> 
> His own teammates could have sat back a little there at the end also.
> 
> It's not a group ride, it's racing.....and for those guys it's literally business.


They did sit back, and were sitting as long as they could before other trains (Confidis?) started appearing along side them. The leadout was soft-pedaling and looking around.

Bottom line - there was no reason for Garmin to help AG2R and chase them down. No reason at all. Shame on Zabriskie, White, Vaughters and whoever else went was involved.


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## CarbonJoe

In the interview with Lance, he indicated that there is a rivalry between Garmin and Columbia, and that is what caused George to lose his shot at yellow. Lance seemed a little disappointed that George didn't get yellow.


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## 55x11

Fredke said:


> The simplest explanation, ATMO, is that deals were made for assistance in the mountains.


Deals between who and who, exactly? The major beneficiary is AG2R. They are a relatively weak team and used up their firepower, definitely little to offer Garmin or Astana or anyone else in the mountains.


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## cyclejim

I still think if he had kept his head down and grinded it out he would be in yellow.


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## 88 rex

55x11 said:


> Shame on Zabriskie, White, Vaughters and whoever else went was involved.


That's crazy. They are rivals. Columbia has talked enough trash and now you want Garmin to "play nice."

Columbia gets in one break and now complains. They sprint and they complain. 

They just complain. They ride well, but complain just as well.


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## 55x11

cyclejim said:


> I still think if he had kept his head down and grinded it out he would be in yellow.


If he did as you said, he would get dropped by the breakaway group with 6k to go and finished 3 min behind Ivanov. He did everything in his power to force the breakaway going, as he was the only one interested in time, rather than winning the stage.


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## 55x11

88 rex said:


> That's crazy. They are rivals. Columbia has talked enough trash and now you want Garmin to "play nice."


And please tell me what did Garmin accomplish exactly today for all their efforts?!
Aren't Garmin and AG2R rivals too?


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## Tschai

cyclejim said:


> I still think if he had kept his head down and grinded it out he would be in yellow.



Ummm....No.


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## moonmoth

Vaughters on Twitter:


> That had nothing to do with George or Columbia. Wiggo almost lost 15 seconds the other day due to a split. We can't have that happen again.


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## cyclejim

Maybe I was too quick to judge George, but it made for a heck of an interesting stage though.


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## 88 rex

55x11 said:


> And please tell me what did Garmin accomplish exactly today for all their efforts?!
> Aren't Garmin and AG2R rivals too?


Time and no.


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## burgrat

I think Garmin was pulling at the end because of all the sh*t that Cav has talked about Garmin in the Giro (TTT comment) and basically saying that other teams are riding like juniors (Versus interview). I have no idea why Astana was driving the pace. No real overall threat to the final GC in the break and it's not like they have a sprinter for the stage to set up. It seemed to me that Contador went back to the car to ask Bruyneel wtf the team was doing.


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## rmadore

armstrong blamed it on the rivalry between garmin and columbia - is he serious?
what was astana doing at the front then? I have no issue with astana's tactics - but lance needs to own up to what really went on.....


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## spookyload

How about silence-lotto deciding to do something for the first time in the tour too. Cadel was actually second wheel forcing the pace a bit. Everyone is nervous with so many riders so close. Had Astana let George go, AG2R wasn't going to chase at all. Like someone else above said, how far do you let your "friend" get a lead in the TOUR DE FRANCE (please remember this is a race not playground biking). Had Astana not led the chase the break would likely have swelled to ten minutes easy. That is just five more minutes Astana would have to have gotten back at a later date. I believe Oscar Pierro won the tour because Phonak let a "nobody" get so far down the road in a breakaway.


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## creeve8

How was Wiggins going to get gapped?


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## lookrider

88 rex said:


> That's crazy. They are rivals. Columbia has talked enough trash and now you want Garmin to "play nice."


Good for Vaughters. The guy has been taking abuse for years from lance with his good friend GEORGE having his back.

Too bad George. That's racing. No gifts. Why do you think you're entitled to one?


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## function

In this case, the nobody has no chance of surviving in the mountains... George is a zero threat and would be guaranteed to lose the yellow.


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## Fredke

55x11 said:


> Deals between who and who, exactly? The major beneficiary is AG2R. They are a relatively weak team and used up their firepower, definitely little to offer Garmin or Astana or anyone else in the mountains.


I agree, they're weak as a team; but some of their riders, such as Dessel, Gadret, and V. Efemkin, are strong climbers and smart riders; they could potentially be real help in the Alps. When the race is as close as this, even a few strong riders as allies can make a big difference when someone attacks on a climb.


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## lookrider

55x11 said:


> And please tell me what did Garmin accomplish exactly today for all their efforts?!



They kept George out of yellow, plain and simple.


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## moonmoth

creeve8 said:


> How was Wiggins going to get gapped?


The usual way, I guess, if the peleton took their foot off the gas: a small group gets away at the end.


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## Bocephus Jones II

55x11 said:


> ... who needs enemies?
> 
> Why did american-leadership "friends" chased down big George? Are they that jealous of another american taking the yellow? Bizarre...


On Facebook, Lance claims that he wanted George to get yellow, but it just wasn't in the cards. 

http://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong?ref=nf*



Lance Armstrong St14 done. Sounds like there's a bit of confusion over this one. No one and i mean no one, wanted George in yellow more than me.


Click to expand...

http://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong?ref=nf*http://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong?ref=nfhttp://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong?ref=nf


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## Lazyrider

To blame Astana for George not having yellow seems silly as he missed out on the jersey by only a few seconds. It was the lead out sprinters than made that difference up. Hincapie could have easily been in Yellow otherwise. Astana just didn't want a huge gap but George in Yellow was no issue for Lance.


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## creeve8

moonmoth said:


> The usual way, I guess, if the peleton took their foot off the gas: a small group gets away at the end.


But there is a difference in marking threats off the front and pulling the break back. JV clearly had an agenda


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## 55x11

88 rex said:


> Time and no.


Garmin did NOT get any time today, unless you seriously think Hincapie is a GC threat, in which case I want whatever you are smoking. 

And no - AG2R and Garmin are as much of rivals as Garmin and Columbia. The reason Garmin chased today was something personal, not logic or team goals. For their obvious duchiness, I now hope they fail in all their aspirations.


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## rmadore

lazy
all I am saying is Lance can't pretend he had no role in the outcome. that is inaccurate.


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## lookrider

55x11 said:


> Garmin did NOT get any time today, unless you seriously think Hincapie is a GC threat, in which case I want whatever you are smoking.
> 
> And no - AG2R and Garmin are as much of rivals as Garmin and Columbia. The reason Garmin chased today was something personal, not logic or team goals. For their obvious duchiness, I now hope they fail in all their aspirations.


Garmin and Vaughters have been getting dissed for quite a long time. Columbia had it coming. When you proclaim yourself to be the best team in the world on top of that, you make yourself a target. Too bad.

Nice knife work by Vaughters by the way!


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## 55x11

Lazyrider said:


> To blame Astana for George not having yellow seems silly as he missed out on the jersey by only a few seconds. It was the lead out sprinters than made that difference up. Hincapie could have easily been in Yellow otherwise. Astana just didn't want a huge gap but George in Yellow was no issue for Lance.


I agree to some extent. Garmin and Lotto are more to blame. Their tactics is unexplainable - a douchy move.


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## apexgeezer

It looks more like the Garmin/Columbia rivalry played key role. Very disappointing from JV and his crew. If Astana played a role, shame on them too.


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## 55x11

creeve8 said:


> How was Wiggins going to get gapped?


I call BS on this too. Place wiggo in top 30-50 riders with a Garmin guy or two in front of him - problem solved. Instead they put Zabriskie at the FRONT of AG2R group and made him close the gap. Who does Vaughters think he is fooling? :mad2:


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## elcameron

Astana had to keep it close, I am sure if they could give George the 5 secs they would but there is no way to predict that at 10 k out.


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## lookrider

55x11 said:


> I call BS on this too. Place wiggo in top 30-50 riders with a Garmin guy or two in front of him - problem solved. Instead they put Zabriskie at the FRONT of AG2R group and made him close the gap. Who does Vaughters think he is fooling? :mad2:


Why does Vaughters have to be fooling anyone? He probably laughed right after that explanation. Columbia hates Garmin anyway. How does this hurt Garmin?

Revenge is best served cold. Maybe George will stop complaining and Cavendish will stfu. That one really stung!


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## svrider

55x11 said:


> Who does Vaughters think he is fooling? :mad2:


He was refering to the 15 second gap that caught out some guys a few days ago....Levi even got caught out. He didn't want that to happend again. Makes sense to me.

I do agree Lance's comment about the Garmin/Columbia rivalry is weak. Rivalry or not why did that put Astana on the front?

In the end nobody was going to give George 2 or 3 minutes today. As bad as I feel for George it's not up to Astana/Garmin to get you into yellow.


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## 55x11

lookrider said:


> Garmin and Vaughters have been getting dissed for quite a long time. Columbia had it coming. When you proclaim yourself to be the best team in the world on top of that, you make yourself a target. Too bad.
> 
> Nice knife work by Vaughters by the way!


Nice "knife in the back" work indeed, and I doubt this is the last of it. I will be waiting for Columbia hit the front while Farrar, Wiggo or VdV are dealing with a mechanical.

I will predict that Garmin will have no stage wins and no top-5 GC finishers, never mind podium.

What was Cadel and his teammate doing at the front?


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## bradsmith

Interesting Twitter's from some Garmin riders.

Zabriskie: "Pawns in their game..."

Wiggins: "This man doesn't quite understand what went on today. @ghincapie is a legend and deserves to be in yellow tonight!"

Sounds like the Garmin guys may have just been following orders, and are just as confused by the Garmin strategy at the finish as everyone else was.


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## moonmoth

The weasel words being put out on Twitterspace will attempt to hide it but Garmin and Columbia are bitter rivals. Astana is on the Columbia side for sure, as they don't see Columbia as a GC rival, and Bruyneel and Armstrong are good pals with Hincapie, of course. After the Columbia trash talk at the Giro and other events like Lance stealing Taylor Phinney from Vaughters, why do you think Garmin owes George and his Astana pals a favor? Is it because of the USA flag? I think this is good for cycling and shows that nationalism has no place in the peleton, unlike that Contador/Valverde crap we saw at the Dauphine. 

Should be a *very* interesting Tour of Missouri this year, in Garmin's home territory!


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## 55x11

lookrider said:


> Why does Vaughters have to be fooling anyone? He probably laughed right after that explanation. Columbia hates Garmin anyway. How does this hurt Garmin?
> 
> Revenge is best served cold. Maybe George will stop complaining and Cavendish will stfu. That one really stung!


Own up to your shenanagans, JV. Why doesn't he simply admit they really didn't want Hincapie get yellow? Instead we hear lame excuses.

If I were Hincapie, I would be piassed! If you have followed cycling at all, you know he is not a complainer, but this was BS. And what about Cavendish? What has Garmin accomplish in this Tour exactly?


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## j3fri

i think hincapie could have gotten yellow if columbia didnt help cav 'win' the points...

columbia did try to slow down the pace which was evident but they still wan cav to get points and in the end they got nothing... both backfired... hincapie not in yellow,cav got penalty...


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## bradsmith

55x11 said:


> What has Garmin accomplish in this Tour exactly?


They haven't had a perfect tour, but they are doing pretty good with their GC men, their time trial performances, Millar's breakaway, Maaskant today, and of course Farrar being consistently very good in the sprints.

That said, I think it's BS what happened today. Why would Garmin chase? Really pissed me off a bit. Question is, was this a JV mandate, or was this Matt White in the team car calling the shots today?


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## emsf5

Can someone tell me what other sport/competition would anyone hold back or play nice so their buddy can have the glory? Do you think if Tiger was one stroke down with two to play and O'meara was leading he'd help him read putts or make bogey's on purpose. I doubt it!

It's the nature of competition!


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## lookrider

55x11 said:


> Own up to your shenanagans, JV. Why doesn't he simply admit they really didn't want Hincapie get yellow? Instead we hear lame excuses.
> 
> If I were Hincapie, I would be piassed! If you have followed cycling at all, you know he is not a complainer, but this was BS. And what about Cavendish? What has Garmin accomplish in this Tour exactly?


Jeez, it's a bike race! Everyone knows JV didn't want him in the jersey. It's funny to hear him talk nonsense and infuriate Columbia more. 

I'm sure this goes back years to '99 when JV knew he had to make some big career decisions.

George has been complaining this whole Tour about who's riding their bikes and Cavendish has been ripping Garmin since the Giro, and then he says the others are riding like juniors.

Garmin has two GT threats going into the Alps. Two guys within a minute and a half. Not bad.


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## BuenosAires

Astana has been at the front on most every stage. It's not like they were chasing, they were up front staying out of trouble like they always do. The wind up by the sprinters is what cost George yellow. He seems to be whining alot this Tour.


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## olr1

JVs famous quote around the time he retired was along the lines of cycling being a 'What have you done for me lately?' sport....


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## rogger

Fredke said:


> The simplest explanation, ATMO, is that deals were made for assistance in the mountains.


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!


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## moonmoth

It's interesting to remember that both Hincapie and Slipstream are partners in H30, a sports management company, and one of Garmin's sponsors last year. Zabriskie is also in the H30 mix, and I don't think he would purposefully chase down his pal George unless the team car instructed him to do so. Thus, DZ's "pawn" comment today after the race.


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## rideorglide

emsf5 said:


> Can someone tell me what other sport/competition would anyone hold back or play nice so their buddy can have the glory?


Only this one, where a guy like Hincapie rode for years as Armstrong's domestique and helped Armstrong to glory.

Cycling history is full of tales of "help me now/help you later," but also a certain amount of treachery and payback is a beyotch.

I'm guessing it's hard to judge 5 seconds when you're 10 -15 kms out, but ...

...there was a point there that I was watching, when Astana was pulling the peloton hard like a locomotive pulls a bunch of lazy passenger cars. Time was dropping off Hincapie's breakaway group like sweat off a sumo wrestler on a hot humid day. 

I'm just really bummed George didn't get it. And I like both George and Lance.


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## 88 rex

Bunch of crying sissies. 

This is racing! It's a competition!! You can trust no other team except your own. (Unless you are LA/AC).


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## nims

rideorglide said:


> ...there was a point there that I was watching, when Astana was pulling the peloton hard like a locomotive pulls a bunch of lazy passenger cars. Time was dropping off Hincapie's breakaway group like sweat off a sumo wrestler on a hot humid day.



Actually I'm looking at the rerun and astana kept it at a constant 8 minutes, only when ag2r started racing did the gap drop. Don't blame astana here, Ag2r+Garming brought the gap to 6 minutes, then Columbia+garmin+thor push it at the end (Columbia was trying to get in front and slow the race but they did accelerate for that).


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## 55x11

rogger said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!


No - this makes zero sense. Maybe when I see Efimkin dragging up VandeVelde up the mountain while Contador and Armstrong are gapped I will believe it. For now I am highly skeptical - AG2R will not help Garmin because it can't. This was personal score settling, pure and simple, and AG2R got a freebie from Garmin "pawns".


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## elcameron

nims said:


> Actually I'm looking at the rerun and astana kept it at a constant 8 minutes, only when ag2r started racing did the gap drop. Don't blame astana here, Ag2r+Garming brought the gap to 6 minutes, then Columbia+garmin+thor push it at the end (Columbia was trying to get in front and slow the race but they did accelerate for that).


+1 Astana was keeping a steady pace. And there was no way Columbia was going to slow the peleton at the end.


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## lookrider

This just gets better and better.

http://twitter.com/johanbruyneel

johanbruyneel 
Bummed, really bummed about George Hincapie not getting yellow. Won't elaborate on the strategies but what Garmin did was just BS. Sorry!

Brilliant move by Vaughters. A few days ago this was a very boring Tour. Who knows how this will play out now.

Looks like some lines are being drawn.


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## alec

Astana was not chasing. They were controlling the tempo at the front and trying to let George stay away. The gap actually got bigger once Astana got to the front. Once George has a chance to reflect on this, he'll realize that Johann and Lance were in fact trying to help him. Phil missed this important point as he often does. 

As for Garmin, I think they were being petty. I feel bad for Big George. He has been a class act pro for 16 years and deserved more respect than he got today. If Garmin or Silence-Lotto had something to gain, it would be different, but they gained nothing. 

Anyone who truly understands cycling knows that today was indeed a slap in the face to George, but it wasn't Astana that slapped him.


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## 55x11

88 rex said:


> Bunch of crying sissies.
> 
> This is racing! It's a competition!! You can trust no other team except your own. (Unless you are LA/AC).


Hincapie is a "crying sissy"? oooook...

This is called stupid racing - Garmin was wasting energy before Alpine stage to settle some pitiful personal grudge of DS and as a result gained absolutely nothing in return. This is not helpful to Garmin riders in the long run.

I predict that at the end of the Tour cock-blocking Hincapie from yellow will be their most proud accomplishment as a team. I am switching my GPS to TomTom.


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## j3fri

maybe evans scared hincapie would finish the tour ahead of him in gc...


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## lookrider

55x11 said:


> Hincapie is a "crying sissy"? oooook...
> 
> This is called stupid racing - Garmin was wasting energy before Alpine stage to settle some pitiful personal grudge of DS and as a result gained absolutely nothing in return. This is not helpful to Garmin riders in the long run.
> 
> I predict that at the end of the Tour cock-blocking Hincapie from yellow will be their most proud accomplishment as a team. I am switching my GPS to TomTom.


So letting the formula work itself out with an Astana podium is smart racing? Who knows how this will sort itself out now?


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## 55x11

lookrider said:


> This just gets better and better.
> 
> http://twitter.com/johanbruyneel
> 
> johanbruyneel
> Bummed, really bummed about George Hincapie not getting yellow. Won't elaborate on the strategies but what Garmin did was just BS. Sorry!
> 
> Brilliant move by Vaughters. A few days ago this was a very boring Tour. Who knows how this will play out now.
> 
> Looks like some lines are being drawn.


I feel sorry for Wiggins, Zabriskie, Millar and VanderVelde. They were the biggest losers today - along with Hincapie. There goes Millar's or Zabriskie's chances to get into a breakaway in the remaining flat/rolling Tour stages - Columbia train lead by Hincapie will help chase them down early on. They might as well just painted large target signs on their backs.

Brilliant move by Vaughters indeed. The man is a genius.


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## lookrider

55x11 said:


> I feel sorry for Wiggins, Zabriskie, Millar and VanderVelde. They were the biggest losers today - along with Hincapie. There goes Millar's or Zabriskie's chances to get into a breakaway in the remaining flat/rolling Tour stages - Columbia train lead by Hincapie will help chase them down early on. They might as well just painted large target signs on their backs.
> 
> Brilliant move by Vaughters indeed. The man is a genius.


Maybe they have more ambition than stage wins?

And this will be Columbia's accomplishment? How is the Green jersey looking for them now?


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## jsedlak

55x11 said:


> And please tell me what did Garmin accomplish exactly today for all their efforts?!
> Aren't Garmin and AG2R rivals too?


Maybe it was payback for not letting Millar win?


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## rocco

I honestly find it a bit disappointing George didn't move into yellow today but I think he and many others have a misunderstanding about what was really going on in the heat of the moment... I see nothing sinister on anyone's part... everyone/every team had their own valid reasons to do what they did... no gifts. I think all of these conspiracy theories are much much ado about nothing.


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## cruso414

*after today...*



j3fri said:


> maybe evans scared hincapie would finish the tour ahead of him in gc...


he probably will. btw, JV is a total douche. Karma has a way of evening the score, he will get his.


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## nims

Watching a rerun of the commentaries, Phil and Paul had it completely wrong. The gap was around 8 minutes when astana stopped pulling. Ag2r cut down 2 minutes and garmin the last 1.

Sounds like Phil was pissed at the end or something, blaming astana over and over again.


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## Harold Snepsts

For the people who are saying "that's competition" or "that's just sports." You're kind of overlooking a lot of cycling strategy here. 

Garmin used precious energy here for no other purpose than keeping Hincapie out of the yellow. It's one thing to compete hard to win, but it's another to actually use bad overall strategy for some personal issue.

Columbia probably deserves some comeuppance for running their mouth so much. It's just unfortunate that it was big George.


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## 88 rex

55x11 said:


> Hincapie is a "crying sissy"? oooook...



I was actually referring to you and all the complainers about how George was not gifted the yellow today. 

Hincapie is not a sissy, but he is crying.


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## SRV

cyclejim said:


> I understand why he is angry however I yelled at the tv more than once wondering why he was near the back of his group looking around at the other riders. If you want the yellow you need to have your head down riding for your life. Sorry George you have no one to blame but yourself.


You nailed it. He was ****in' around in the last 5K and could have easily made up the time by putting his head down and riding.


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## elcameron

SRV said:


> You nailed it. He was ****in' around in the last 5K and could have easily made up the time by putting his head down and riding.


There was no F'in around that last 5K. I do not think he could have ridden that last bit faster by himself, those attacks really quickened the pace.


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## 55x11

88 rex said:


> I was actually referring to you and all the complainers about how George was not gifted the yellow today.
> 
> Hincapie is not a sissy, but he is crying.


This was no "gift" - they gifted nothing as it was not their "gift" to begin with. They worked extra hard for no reasons than prevent another rider, who is no threat to them in any way - and you call it a "gift"? 

If anything, they DID give a "yellow jersey" gift - to AG2R.

If this was, say, Ivanov, who would have gotten yellow, they would not do anything. In fact, I don't remember Garmin riding hard to prevent Nocentini to get into yellow, or when Contador was almost in yellow - and missed it by 2 seconds. They were happy to let others drive.

This was personal vendetta against Hincapie. Possibly sour grapes that they cannot win against Cav in sprints, or take TTT from Astana. With tactics like this they will have a bunch of second-place finishes and nothing else to show for it. This score-settling is very counter-productive to the overall team goals.

Am I a sissy for saying all this things above? You decide.


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## dclee

Astana controlling the tempo prevented the break from getting additional minutes, thereby comfortably placing GH in yellow - this tempo riding should have been AG2R's job. Garmin pulling in the last few kms took a few seconds.
At the end of the day:
1) Astana prevented the break from getting minutes;
2) Garmin took a few seconds
So, you can say Garmin may have been the difference, but really Astana's work at the front prevented GH from getting yelllow by making it so tight at the end when he likely would have had a minute or two gap if AG2R did the tempo setting.


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## thechriswebb

I don't know; it is hard to tell what is going on from spectating, so I can't definitively argue that Garmin was pulling for the sole purpose of keeping George out of yellow.

But.......

For a team that is trying to establish themselves as _the_ American team and build their popularity in the US, making an effort to keep George Hincapie out of yellow might be the worst thing they can do.




I do feel a bit of an urge to pull my Garmin off of my bike, admittedly .........


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## DZfan14

Farrar should be pissed because Cav won't let him win a stage..


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## Snakebit

What was George doing attacking his ol' buddy Lance anyhow? It wasn't just a stage, Astana took time off the lead to hold them around 5 minutes. That didn't cost George the stage but it kept the Astana hopefuls within striking distance of the lead. I wanted George in yellow too and Lance probably did as well but not with a large lead in the overall.


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## 88 rex

55x11 said:


> Am I a sissy for saying all this things above? You decide.


Yes. Get over it. George isn't in yellow and won't be in yellow. Garmin hardly wasted energy with the little bit of pulling that they did. Let us not forget Astana tempo riding the whole stage. Then there is Silence Lotto getting into the action, and the inevitable ramp up in speed for the sprint (which was dangerous due to Columbia pulling up at the line to hold it up). 


Maybe George should be mad at his breakaway group who was more concerned with their own personal glory and not Hincapie's.


----------



## UpHillCrawler

*Cry me a river George...*

I've always liked Big George but his whining at the end of the stage wasn't right. He blew up over the last 5k in today's race and if HE couldn't muster the strength to pull back 5 seconds, that's on him. 

Also, I think Paul said it best when he explained that Astana's role was to control the time gap, not keep George out of the yellow jersey. I think Astana had in mind what they neded to do and if they could do that and George got a yellow jersey great, but if not they still had goals they needed to accomplish. Besides they have their own problems sorting out the Lance / Contador mess especially with Levi out...

And if George really needs to blame someone maybe he could tell his cocky little roommate to STFU and stop giving the other teams in the race additional motivation. Funny that when other teams complain about Columbia's tactics at the end of the race to get Cav another win you don't hear any sympathy from George. I especially liked that the race officials took away Cav's points at the finish for cutting off Thor. Thor looks better in green anyway.

Seems to me that a team like Columbia that gives no mercy shouldn't ask or expect any in return...


----------



## 55x11

88 rex said:


> Yes. Get over it. George isn't in yellow and won't be in yellow. Garmin hardly wasted energy with the little bit of pulling that they did. Let us not forget Astana tempo riding the whole stage. Then there is Silence Lotto getting into the action, and the inevitable ramp up in speed for the sprint (which was dangerous due to Columbia pulling up at the line to hold it up).
> 
> 
> Maybe George should be mad at his breakaway group who was more concerned with their own personal glory and not Hincapie's.


Shows how little you understand about pro bike racing.

1. Breakaway group had no reason to be helping Hincapie get in yellow. But they didn't deliberately sabotage his chances either.

2. Astana had a reason to limit time gained by Hincapie to reasonable amount, since Contador appears to want to be in yellow tomorrow. They didn't care if he gets in yellow by a minute or so, but not by 5 or 8 minutes. They did NOT "ride the whole stage". Did you even watch the stage?

3. Silence-Lotto's tactics are as questionable as Garmin's. Cadel had nothing to gain. Others noted this too. Every little effort counts.


----------



## jsedlak

dclee said:


> Astana controlling the tempo prevented the break from getting additional minutes, thereby comfortably placing GH in yellow - this tempo riding should have been AG2R's job. Garmin pulling in the last few kms took a few seconds.
> At the end of the day:
> 1) Astana prevented the break from getting minutes;
> 2) Garmin took a few seconds
> So, you can say Garmin may have been the difference, but really Astana's work at the front prevented GH from getting yelllow by making it so tight at the end when he likely would have had a minute or two gap if AG2R did the tempo setting.


Astana was trying to get George into yellow but only by a few seconds. If you give the man a few minutes he might just be able to hold it until Paris. Far shot, I know, but crazier things have happened.

AG2R was having trouble doing the pacing and Astana knew that tomorrow they would/will not chase down the break. This creates a problem for all the GC teams that will be looking to get their man in yellow. Now each team will probably have to make sure one of their men gets in the break.

Had George been in yellow, CHTC might be more willing to do work tomorrow and would be more than able.

I hope that George just hangs in there tomorrow and gets yellow, if just for a day.


----------



## stevesbike

something tells me the next sprint is not going to be pretty - Farrar better bring some bodyguards to it.


----------



## kudude

55x11 said:


> I feel sorry for Wiggins, Zabriskie, Millar and VanderVelde. They were the biggest losers today - along with Hincapie. There goes Millar's or Zabriskie's chances to get into a breakaway in the remaining flat/rolling Tour stages - Columbia train lead by Hincapie will help chase them down early on. They might as well just painted large target signs on their backs.
> 
> Brilliant move by Vaughters indeed. The man is a genius.


There already was a target on their backs. Maybe not as large as before, but they would have been chased down anyway. They may not be directly in contention but they are two riders who can ride one hell of a TT and make up some serious minutes if just "let go" by the peleton.


----------



## Len J

Watching it, when it came down to the final 8 K, he just didn't have the legs.

And the remaining Hincapie group was losing time to Ivanov every Kilometer. If that group sucks it up and works together, George has a better chance at Yellow. if he is pissed at anyone, he should be pissed at the hangers on in the brakeaway who wouldn't work and couldn't hold an attack.

As to George tomorrow....after the effort he put out today, he's toast tomorrow.....and he knows it, which is one of the reasons he is so disappointed today.

Len


----------



## identifiler

Some people here never the last 40 kms. Astana controlled the stage, there was never any pulling at all. You know, when someone is at the front, it's not always to crunch a break. With Astana at the front, the break gained heavily ! To the point that Conti went back to JB to get some explaination (he probably calmed him down for a GH or David Moncoutier 30 second gift), why the hell not ! It wasn't gonna be an issue and everyone knows Lance will give big goearge a call next year. 

AG2R started protecting during the last few bumps, they couldn't, they gave up, they sat up ! George was rellayed that information after some fantastic pulling (to be honest, he worked the guys well), then the attacks started, instead of giving this stage to anyone at km 10, the confusion started way before. The russion took off, Gerge had absolutely nothing to loose by just rolling in heavy tempo except for Moncoutier WHO JUST WASN'T UP TO IT... Instead, George just stalls in the last 10, argues and clutches in, stop and go.

During that time, in the back, Garmin and HTC stump on the Astana OBVIOUS gift to Hincapie.

I would say George should have ridden more intelligently in the last 10km and Jonathan Vaughters... oh man you are one big fat hate target from now on... but I do remember a george who wona stage by sucking a wheel the whole way and punching a sprint at about 20 meters from the line when his opponent clearly thaught he would respect unwritten rules...

Astana was at the front, but they never pulled, Garmin pulled, no question about that. By the time Astana was done at the front GH had a yellow jersey.

Karma dude, karma.

PS All this is good, cause Garmin is up there and this brews a lot of crap, can<t wait to see how wiggo is gonna do tomorrow...

PPS JV has commented already that Wiggo had lost some time in the last part of a race because of breaks and wanted to protect any breaks or falls and asked everyone at the front FSA... ya right...


----------



## pacman

I bame the Cofidis rider who seemed to literally coast when his turn came up to pull. He was deliberately slowing down the pace line.


----------



## paco_finn

Exactly.

I have read all these post and really wonder if half of these people have ever thrown a leg over a bike and gone on any group rides let alone races. This was a BS move that always comes back to bite you in the butt, it may be a couple of years but you will see. This is more of a community than you think and there are unwritten guidelines and "ethics" if you will - though they are loose. Even other teams have lost respect for Garmin on this one too. I don't see any lasting benefits form this other than pety gloating...if you are into that type of thing.


----------



## NextTime

Garmin lost a fan in me today. I'm all for honest racing and let the best man win etc. etc. 

But what was motivating Garmin was petty pay-back to Columbia. Pure and simple, and its beyond debate.

I'll throw my support behind a team with purer motives.


----------



## bradsmith

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm not a huge fan of what Garmin did today. I'm witholding final judgement because of several reasons: (1) I am huge fans of VdV, Farrar, and the other riders, (2) they seemed to just be following orders and were just as confused/upset, and (3) we don't really seem to know the full story yet.

Here's the latest tweet from Vaughters:
"Just finished texting with Rich Hincapie. It ended positively. I don't think its too fair for everyone to assume what went on out there."

I love what Vaughters did in starting this team, bringing the riders he did, and generally what he's done for US cycling, but I think he's sometimes over-involved in the tactics. Let Matt White handle things.


----------



## Gnarly 928

Yeah, that Vaughters seems to be kinda 'slimy'. "Petty"?..Dunno but in that TV Special about the Garmin Squad he came across as a real douche bag (in my opinion) with his 'holier than thou' blabbing and his rap about wanting to do something for the sport...Now I don't know the guy personally, but he certainly comes across in his public presentation like he just wants the bucks and he loves the power of being the D,S. of a squad with lots of money... A dork who's made the big time...

Telling his guys to chase (because he could) was par for a little twerp like him..
I wonder how he was regarded when he raced?


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

I'm at work, haven't been able to see the race today.

Can't believe what I'm reading here. Sounds like a bunch of high school girls raced today. 

I'll have to catch it tonight on replay.


----------



## LCFrecrider

moonmoth said:


> Vaughters on Twitter:



Maybe he should have said, "Just had the boys on the front to work on their TTT - that's our only focus, ya know..."


----------



## Stogaguy

*My $0.02*

I have skimmed this thread but not had time to read it in detail. However, I did watch the stage on Versus. IMHO:<o></o>
 <o></o>
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->1. <!--[endif]-->It is a shame that Hincapie did not get the opportunity to wear yellow. I have great respect for the guy and his career.<o></o>
 <o></o>
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->2.<!--[endif]--> AG2R chased to defend the yellow jersey. This is entirely normal and their "duty".<o></o>

 <!--[if !supportLists]-->3.<!--[endif]--> Garmin and others stepped in pulling at the end of the race when it became apparent that AG2R did not have the horsepower on their own to deny Big George the jersey.<o></o>
 <o></o>
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->4.<!--[endif]--> Astana only chased earlier in the game to make sure that the break never got too big of a lead. They would have been happy to have Hincapie in yellow but not with a big margin. This is completely consistent with their own self-interest.<o></o>
 <o></o>
 <!--[if !supportLists]-->5.<!--[endif]--> Columbia was not allowed to get the yellow jersey as a payback for their trash talking ways. This was old school "frontier justice"; something that has been going on in pro cycling for a very long time. Bottom line, a message was just sent, "keep talking smack and disrespecting the competition and we as a group will find a way to pay you back in spades". I am only sorry that Big George was made to pay the price for his whole team. Hey Cav, Who is finishing like juniors now?...<o></o><o>
</o>


----------



## Coolhand

Stogaguy said:


> I have skimmed this thread but not had time to read it in detail. However, I did watch the stage on Versus. IMHO:<o></o>
> <o></o>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->1. <!--[endif]-->It is a shame that Hincapie did not get the opportunity to wear yellow. I have great respect for the guy and his career.<o></o>
> <o></o>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->2.<!--[endif]--> AG2R chased to defend the yellow jersey. This is entirely normal and their "duty".<o></o>
> 
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->3.<!--[endif]--> Garmin and others stepped in pulling at the end of the race when it became apparent that AG2R did not have the horsepower on their own to deny Big George the jersey.<o></o>
> <o></o>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->4.<!--[endif]--> Astana only chased earlier in the game to make sure that the break never got too big of a lead. They would have been happy to have Hincapie in yellow but not with a big margin. This is completely consistent with their own self-interest.<o></o>
> <o></o>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->5.<!--[endif]--> Columbia was not allowed to get the yellow jersey as a payback for their trash talking ways. This was old school "frontier justice"; something that has been going on in pro cycling for a very long time. Bottom line, a message was just sent, "keep talking smack and disrespecting the competition and we as a group will find a way to pay you back in spades". I am only sorry that Big George was made to pay the price for his whole team. Hey Cav, Who is finishing like juniors now?...<o></o><o>
> </o>


Payback is a two way street. 

Seeing Garmin are going to finish off the podium in GC, not win the team, not win the Green, Not win any jersey in fact and probably not win a single stage now as Columbia won't let a Garmin guy go now-- while Columbia has won 4 stages now and may have a higher GC guy to boot. Garmin's results are what-- a bunch of hype, a few second places and this move. I am sure their sponsors will be stoked.


----------



## rodster

Are Garmin and Columbia competitive? God I hope so 'cus this tour' stage looked to be yet another snoozer going in.

That the break quit cooperating with 10k's to go isn't surprising. The peloton was never going to catch them so, why cooperate in bringing 20 guys to the line? 

That the peloton would speed up as they approached the end was inevitible. One team or another is motivated to have guys up front to avoid splits caused by crashes and the like. Happens every day. 

The break just lost all momemtum once Ivanov got a gap. The last thing George needed was a bunch of attacks to cover after all the work he'd put in. 

If they'd had 9 minutes instead of 8 minutes, then George is in yellow. So Astana kept it to 8 minutes early on. If I'm Astana, I don't want to go from seconds out of yellow to minutes out of yellow. Big whup, if it's anyone other than George would there be any discussion tonight about their tactics?

AG2R took over from them and did enough to keep their guy keep yellow. 

Had Ivanov not got away until, say 5k's to go. I think George is in yellow. 

That's bike racing folks.


----------



## ksanbon

This might be off base, but I can't think that part of Vaughter's motivation might be financial. George wearing yellow coupled w/ Cav's 4 stage wins compared to Garmin's lack of success at this point of The Tour might make Columbia more attractive to potential sponsors. It all comes down to the $$.......

It would have been great to see him in yellow but it wouldn't have meant as much knowing they gave it to him.


----------



## Spunout

Bottom Line: Columbia was at the front at the end. They wouldn't have been there if they were 100% behind George, 

But they were not.

So tomorrow, Columbia can just go ramp it up the mountains and drop all of the Garmin riders. Good luck.


----------



## identifiler

exactly, and by the way I think a lot of confusion came from OLN and VS. Phil Leg. was bullshitting that Astana was chasing, that guy is in idiot, he was trying to create rumors, he never never even looked at the clock which was giving time. I watched euro TV and the european commentators were right on ball explaining who was doing what and asking the correct questions. They ckecked everytime a team was sitting up and noticed many times Ag2R sitting up because they were hurting and Astana sitting up because they wanted to give some time to GH.

I still remain that GH trashed his last 10 km, he forgot that it didn't if he came 4 or 7th, it mattered if he came in FAST.


----------



## lookrider

cruso414 said:


> he probably will. btw, JV is a total douche. Karma has a way of evening the score, he will get his.


Actually, you have it backwards. Some scores were evened today and GH will NEVER wear yellow again.


----------



## Chili Fries

55x11 said:


> 3. Silence-Lotto's tactics are as questionable as Garmin's. Cadel had nothing to gain. Others noted this too. Every little effort counts.


You can't be serious. Cadel crashed a few days ago in the last few kilometers so Lotto was just keeping him out of trouble. 

Garmin was doing the same thing keeping Wiggins out of trouble. He almost lost 15 seconds because of a split peloton earlier in the TDF.


----------



## bradsmith

Article full of reactions from all over at VeloNews:
http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/95404/

Some interesting snippets I'd like to bring up:



> *Johan Bruyneel, sport director Astana:*"It would have been nice for him personally, and also for our own tactics it would have been good because _I was pretty sure that if he took the jersey that tomorrow Columbia would defend the jersey or try to control the race_.”





> *Lance Armstrong, seven-time Tour de France winner:* “The break goes, George is in there, he’s the best placed rider on GC, which means he has a chance at the yellow jersey. For our team, that’s a good thing, and for me personally, it’s a great thing, because he’s my best bud in the peloton. The scenario of George in yellow was perfect for our team. _His team would have ridden (at the front) all day tomorrow. It’s exactly what we wanted._”


Italic emphasis is mine. So it seems at least the Astana team felt like if George took the jersey that Columbia would do all the work tomorrow. And they're probably right. And that would be bad news for Garmin, Silence-Lotto, etc. They'd much rather Astana control the race and use energy.

The interesting thing, though, is that no one on Garmin is mentioning that as the reasoning.


----------



## lookrider

paco_finn said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I have read all these post and really wonder if half of these people have ever thrown a leg over a bike and gone on any group rides let alone races. This was a BS move that always comes back to bite you in the butt, it may be a couple of years but you will see. This is more of a community than you think and there are unwritten guidelines and "ethics" if you will - though they are loose. Even other teams have lost respect for Garmin on this one too. I don't see any lasting benefits form this other than pety gloating...if you are into that type of thing.


Good grief! This thing goes back years, when lance was destroying everything in sight, and George was his faithful Lieutenant.

If you saw LA after the stage he summed up what happened, but didn't seem too upset about it. It was a move worthy of LA by JV and the only problem with it was that both DZ (weasel) and Wiggins opened their mouths. Wiggins has been lamenting his results due to people like Ricco, but is apparently afraid to confront the old hegemony. 

Armstrong would never apologize for a move like that.

Chris Carmichael is the one who has famously said that this is personal, like a knife fight out there. Well, I never heard of any rules in a knife fight, but I can tell that George got stabbed very badly. JV sent a hell of a message. Good for him. NO Gifts.

Garmin lost nothing. Both Astana and Columbia openly despise them already. They got AG2R and who knows how many others. They've completely animated the race. It's actually the 2nd best move of the Tour besides AC's attack. If LA had gotten yellow, he would have declared himself team leader.

The most succesful moves are evidenced by the most crying.


----------



## Francis Cebedo

Racing is racing and it did not work out for Hincapie today because of several factors.

But a lot of you are blaming Garmin as the key to his woes. Well to all of you, I say:
I agree. And Vaughters is an immature and pretentious punk.

fc


----------



## barry1021

55x11 said:


> I am switching my GPS to TomTom.


Best line of the thread.

b21


----------



## lookrider

Gnarly 928 said:


> Yeah, that Vaughters seems to be kinda 'slimy'. "Petty"?..Dunno but in that TV Special about the Garmin Squad he came across as a real douche bag (in my opinion) with his 'holier than thou' blabbing and his rap about wanting to do something for the sport...Now I don't know the guy personally, but he certainly comes across in his public presentation like he just wants the bucks and he loves the power of being the D,S. of a squad with lots of money... A dork who's made the big time...
> 
> Telling his guys to chase (because he could) was par for a little twerp like him..
> I wonder how he was regarded when he raced?


He was a decent guy and that's why he formed the team with its stated objectives.

Like when the twerp dissented from LA's orders to chase Bassons down in the '99 Dauphine. Whatever. 

Vaughters knows exactly what he did here, and should have the balls to stick to his guns.

He should tell GH to stop crying. That's bike racing and GH had a front row seat to people getting screwed over for years. 

Who was it Pereiro who he sat on all the way up Pla d' Adet? That's all good though?

You can't topple the old regime, ahhh without toppling the old regime.


----------



## lookrider

francois said:


> Racing is racing and it did not work out for Hincapie today because of several factors.
> 
> But a lot of you are blaming Garmin as the key to his woes. Well to all of you, I say:
> I agree. And Vaughters is an immature and pretentious punk.
> 
> fc


Whatever dude....

Who's mature, the USPS/Discovery/Astana thugs or the whining, bragging, trash talking, Columbia boys.


----------



## culdeus

never mind, this joke has been played out. sorry.

Feel bad for George. But he should have been riding for stage win and not the yellow for one day. In my mind Stage win >> Temporary Yellow.


----------



## fear29

cyclejim said:


> I understand why he is angry however I yelled at the tv more than once wondering why he was near the back of his group looking around at the other riders. If you want the yellow you need to have your head down riding for your life. Sorry George you have no one to blame but yourself.


 That's how I see it too What a big whiner


----------



## albert owen

George should have gone harder at the end and Columbia should have told him to get a move on. Isn't that why they have radios? Too much time was wasted messing around during the last 10k - simple.


----------



## richwolf

I thought today's stage was pretty good, but this thread tops it by 1000 times!

Columbian only has themselves to blame. They wanted the yellow and the green at the same time. They got neither and have been whining the whole tour to boot. If they wanted Hincape in yellow they could have screwed around more at the front and not gone so hard in the sprint finish which did nothing for them anyways.

Gifting old men yellow jerseys reminds me of grade school good citizen awards. And I agree, when Hincape won that mountain top stage that one year, he broke one of those many unwritten rules of the sport. Hincape is a good guy when things are going his way but he whines too much for a seasoned veteran.

But it all makes for great drama and I am sure it will add to some more excitement in this final week. Perhaps the sprint finishes might make roller derby look like a sissy sport.


----------



## oarsman

bradsmith said:


> Italic emphasis is mine. So it seems at least the Astana team felt like if George took the jersey that Columbia would do all the work tomorrow. And they're probably right. And that would be bad news for Garmin, Silence-Lotto, etc. They'd much rather Astana control the race and use energy.
> .


This makes sense to me. The only way a non-Astana rider wins this race is if Astana uses too much energy protecting Contador and Armstrong. Tomorrow is a pretty tough day, but the climbs are not all that steep. Columbia probably could have controlled the race and perhaps protected Hincapie in yellow if he had a minute or two. Now, if one of the favourites, or more likely, one of the "near" favourites, tries to get in a breakaway then Astana has to chase them down.

Or, then again, maybe this was just all about payback to the self-proclaimed "best cycling team in the world".


----------



## moabbiker

What's with all the blaming for? George has moved up to a coveted position in 2nd now. He has everything he needs to seize yellow so it's going to be up to him and his team to position him for that, if the team believes that's the right choice. How is it exactly Garmin's fault? Are we going to blame Garmin that they wanted to ensure Cavendish was blown out of Green as well? Pretty lame arguments...


----------



## Francis Cebedo

moabbiker said:


> What's with all the blaming for? George has moved up to a coveted position in 2nd now. He has everything he needs to seize yellow so it's going to be up to him and his team to position him for that, if the team believes that's the right choice. How is it exactly Garmin's fault? Are we going to blame Garmin that they wanted to ensure Cavendish was blown out of Green as well? Pretty lame arguments...


Umm, George will get shelled tomorrow. He knows it and we all know it. His move today was just to wear the yellow cape for one day. This was a one shot, one day special.

fc


----------



## Guest

francois said:


> Umm, George will get shelled tomorrow. He knows it and we all know it. His move today was just to wear the yellow cape for one day. This was a one shot, one day special.
> 
> fc



So what?

That does not mean that the other teams, or riders, in the race have to stand down and give him the gift.

If he wanted yellow, he should have ridden harder.


----------



## godot

If this had happened to any rider in the peloton other than an American, would anyone on these boards care?


----------



## jorgy

oarsman said:


> This makes sense to me. The only way a non-Astana rider wins this race is if Astana uses too much energy protecting Contador and Armstrong. Tomorrow is a pretty tough day, but the climbs are not all that steep. Columbia probably could have controlled the race and perhaps protected Hincapie in yellow if he had a minute or two. Now, if one of the favourites, or more likely, one of the "near" favourites, tries to get in a breakaway then Astana has to chase them down.
> 
> Or, then again, maybe this was just all about payback to the self-proclaimed "best cycling team in the world".


Yep, this explanation makes a lot more sense than the petty schoolgirl explanation.

Strategery. Imagine that.

Columbia comes off worse in this whole thing for me. They've been poor sports as winners (especially the big mouthed Manxman, but Stapleton has been happy to put digs in, too) and now they get to be poor sports as losers. I'm glad Cav got penalized for his poor sportsmanship. He's not the fastest in the peloton. He's the fastest with a magnificent lead-out train.


----------



## OES

toomanybikes said:


> So what?
> 
> That does not mean that the other teams, or riders, in the race have to stand down and give him the gift.
> 
> If he wanted yellow, he should have ridden harder.


Yeah. Y'all tell him. He's old and lazy and hasn't earned any respect from the peleton. All those good young guys who didn't benefit _one bit_ from showing the old fart that he's over the hill, and needs to take to his rocking chair. Yep. I can sure see that.

HTH!


----------



## svrider

rodster said:


> Big whup, if it's anyone other than George would there be any discussion tonight about their tactics?


Very true. 

Each team's moves made some sense given their objectives. Had it been anyone other than George it wouldn't even be worth a mention.

I do agree that Garmin's move made the least sense though.....


----------



## OES

svrider said:


> Had it been anyone other than George it wouldn't even be worth a mention.


I agree. That's the point, though. It WAS George.


----------



## Spunout

bradsmith said:


> The interesting thing, though, is that no one on Garmin is mentioning that as the reasoning.


Maybe Garmin (JV) doesn't air his dirty laundry and whine on twitter and their facebook pages like a bunch of pissed-off high school girls.

But this is a very good idea, keep Astana defending...it only plays into Garmin's game. Columbia is a non-issue for the GC.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

toomanybikes said:


> So what?
> 
> That does not mean that the other teams, or riders, in the race have to stand down and give him the gift.
> 
> If he wanted yellow, he should have ridden harder.



There'll be much more coming out in the wash over the next couple weeks. I'm certain there is so much more to this "story". 

For instance, who really gave the orders to hammer away, (why were the Silence-L guys involved too, btw?) and what were the guy's take on it. There must be (I'm hoping) some logical reason that we're missing here and it's not just some inter-team hate-fest thing.

I noticed Farrar even totally backed off in the final sprint and this was suppsoedly a day he and Cav would go head to head again. He had every opportunity to try, but just sat up. Why? I also read some rider's comment that he asked a Garmin guy wtf are you guys doing? And the response was, "I don't know". 


Hmmmm. Something is fishy in fishville. :blush2:


----------



## Kenacycle

The pelaton kept the gap at roughly 5'20" since 62miles to go. So they pretty much stopped chasing hard and left that gap for George to take. If they were really out to bridge the gap, it could have easily been down to a minute or two. 

At first I felt George was jipped; but now I watch the race again I believe George should have gone just a little harder at the end. Afterall it was only 5 seconds more he needed; not minutes.


----------



## seeborough

emsf5 said:


> Can someone tell me what other sport/competition would anyone hold back or play nice so their buddy can have the glory? Do you think if Tiger was one stroke down with two to play and O'meara was leading he'd help him read putts or make bogey's on purpose. I doubt it!
> 
> It's the nature of competition!


No, but if he were 5 strokes down with one hole to go, he wouldn't throw his putter at the guy either.


----------



## thechriswebb

godot said:


> If this had happened to any rider in the peloton other than an American, would anyone on these boards care?


I wish nationality would stay out of these discussions.

George's popularity is a factor, though.

There was a situation similar to this a few years back. Jens Voigt had broken away and was riding to a stage win, and Bjarne Riis called him back to the chasing group (containing Lance Armstrong) to catch Jan Ullrich. People went crazy. To most people watching, the move didn't make sense, and many thought the move was more beneficial to Armstrong than anyone. Jens gave up his stage victory and Basso finished behind Armstrong anyway. To everyone cheering the underdog Ullrich, it looked like Jens had stuck an unnecessary knife in his back. Riis said that he just wanted Jens there to help Basso, but the anger and rumors of nefarious plots and betrayal remained. 

In the end, Jens was the person that suffered the most. He said that he didn't have a choice and that he had to follow his DS's orders. 

I don't know what to think. Maybe JV had some tactical motive for what he was doing, or maybe it was spiteful. It was obvious that the team didn't want to chase, but they have to do what they are told. Who knows what was happening in JV's head?


----------



## 55x11

richwolf said:


> I thought today's stage was pretty good, but this thread tops it by 1000 times!
> 
> Columbian only has themselves to blame. They wanted the yellow and the green at the same time. They got neither and have been whining the whole tour to boot. If they wanted Hincape in yellow they could have screwed around more at the front and not gone so hard in the sprint finish which did nothing for them anyways.
> 
> Gifting old men yellow jerseys reminds me of grade school good citizen awards. And I agree, when Hincape won that mountain top stage that one year, he broke one of those many unwritten rules of the sport. Hincape is a good guy when things are going his way but he whines too much for a seasoned veteran.
> 
> But it all makes for great drama and I am sure it will add to some more excitement in this final week. Perhaps the sprint finishes might make roller derby look like a sissy sport.


Sorry, but... What a bunch of nonsense! What is the "unwritten rule of the sport"? Let some other guy win? Are you serious?!

What is this about Columbia whining? Nobody is whining, just calling things as they are. If this was some other rider getting yellow nobody would care. There was no reason for Garmin to drive - and they did. I will bet you a random french team wouldn't do it to another french rider, just out of spite. In fact I can't remember when something like this happened before.

Garmin is bitter about not getting any wins or jerseys and at this rate they won't get any. Columbia has how many stage wins already? And they have white. This is Giro all over again: Garmin is all talk and no results.


----------



## 55x11

Spunout said:


> ...it only plays into Garmin's game. Columbia is a non-issue for the GC.


Let's be honest - neither is Garmin. Not with this DS.


----------



## lookrider

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/95404/

Very funny indeed coming from the Hog.

_Bruyneel: “Obviously it was clear they didn’t want to see him in the jersey. If you start to race like that, to go against the success of other people, ultimately it comes back, and I think that is what is going to happen. _

Jeez Hog, you and your guys never tried to ruin other riders for no reason at all?

And anyway, what's the matter with disrupting your plans for a boring Astana podium?

And then this, after the Hog and Armstrong admitted that having George in yellow would be great for Astana because they knew Columbia would ride like maniacs to defend the jersey.

_Bruyneel: “Tomorrow we don’t know what will happen. I’ve no idea who will be in yellow tomorrow night. Not the slightest idea.”_

_Lance Armstrong, seven-time Tour de France winner: “The break goes, George is in there, he’s the best placed rider on GC, which means he has a chance at the yellow jersey. For our team, that’s a good thing, and for me personally, it’s a great thing, because he’s my best bud in the peloton. The scenario of George in yellow was perfect for our team. His team would have ridden (at the front) all day tomorrow. It’s exactly what we wanted.” _


If there is some ill will between JV and George.....

_Stapleton: “It’s too bad for George. How many more chances is he going to get? That’s a guy late in his career, having a chance in yellow, I think that’s something pretty special, and something that every that athlete would aspire to, and everyone would like to see. I think George is focused on calming down and trying to have a good recovery. His whole family came today and he was thinking he had a chance to celebrate a big day with his family, that’s a little disappointing I’m sure.” _

he slipped the knife in George too. 

Man, this Vaughters is a frigging genius. He messed up everyone's plans. Blew the race open, and got some payback to boot.


----------



## 55x11

thechriswebb said:


> I wish nationality would stay out of these discussions.
> 
> George's popularity is a factor, though.
> 
> There was a situation similar to this a few years back. Jens Voigt had broken away and was riding to a stage win, and Bjarne Riis called him back to the chasing group (containing Lance Armstrong) to catch Jan Ullrich. People went crazy. To most people watching, the move didn't make sense, and many thought the move was more beneficial to Armstrong than anyone. Jens gave up his stage victory and Basso finished behind Armstrong anyway. To everyone cheering the underdog Ullrich, it looked like Jens had stuck an unnecessary knife in his back. Riis said that he just wanted Jens there to help Basso, but the anger and rumors of nefarious plots and betrayal remained.
> 
> In the end, Jens was the person that suffered the most. He said that he didn't have a choice and that he had to follow his DS's orders.
> 
> I don't know what to think. Maybe JV had some tactical motive for what he was doing, or maybe it was spiteful. It was obvious that the team didn't want to chase, but they have to do what they are told. Who knows what was happening in JV's head?


Imagine a french team preventing Voeckler from getting yellow for no gain. Imagine a swiss rider ordering to chase down Cancellar, or belgian team asking to chase down Boonen, again, for no gain, just out of spite. Imagine Euskalel chasing down Sanchez, out of spite. 

No, it doesn't happen all the time, and yes, there would be many fans outraged over this deuchy tactic. Whatever, I just hope JV can sleep at night.

I agree with Stapleton:
"Their tactics were obvious and disappointing. It was a big effort to pull the jersey off his back.... I don’t know why you’d do that with George. That would have been a victory for everyone and would have got attention all over the US. An American in yellow would magnify the sport incredibly..."

Chris Carmichael: "wow, garmin!...why?"

Wiggins: "This man does'nt quite understand what went on today. @ghincapie is a legend and deserves to be in yellow tonight!"

Bruyneel: "Bummed, really bummed about George Hincapie not getting yellow. Won't elaborate on the strategies but what Garmin did was just BS. Sorry!"
“I don’t understand why Garmin were working so hard, it seemed like they weren’t happy that another American team should have the race lead,” Bruyneel said.
“This episode could have longer-term sequels. Racing against another team like that is not good, not something that should happen in the Tour.”

Zabriskie: "Pawns in their game..."


----------



## jd3

55x11 said:


> Hincapie is a "crying sissy"? oooook...
> 
> . I am switching my GPS to TomTom.


No need to punish yourself.


----------



## nOOky

George should have grabbed Ivanov's wheel when he took off, he should have covered everything and been attentive. Maybe he was too tired and didn't have it, or though he would have help bringing him in. It was a matter of seconds, sometimes you time it right and sometimes you don't.
I can understand his frustration, but the fault is not the peleton behind him imho.


----------



## Chili Fries

cruso414 said:


> he probably will. btw, JV is a total douche. Karma has a way of evening the score, he will get his.


Lol! Today is karmic payback for Hincapie wheelsucking to his only TDF stage win.


----------



## OES

lookrider said:


> Man, this Vaughters is a frigging genius. He messed up everyone's plans. Blew the race open, and got some payback to boot.


He's a real smart boy, all right. Blew it WIDE open. The GC is topsy turvy now, and Garmin is really sitting pretty. So shrewd and smart, he is, that it's way over my head. But we'll look for Garmin all over the podium now, after this brilliant masterstroke, right?


----------



## jd3

First, let me state my position. I would have loved to see George in yellow. I was cheering for him.
Astana did not chase him down any more than to keep the time gap reasonable. 
Ag2r did their job, to keep yellow, as best as they could.
Columbia has dissed Garmin ever since the Giro,
Garmin, at least the boss, paid them back today.
GH only lost yellow by a few seconds. Those few seconds could have been saved by him keeping his head down and racing instead of looking around at the other riders just once in the last 10k.

George got rubbed today, and rubbings racing boys.


----------



## Len J

Brumneel is stirring up dirt.

Watch the replay..........If Colombia doesn't get on the point of the peleton in the final sprint......That 6 seconds doesn't happen.

len


----------



## Mootsie

lookrider said:


> They kept George out of yellow, plain and simple.


and Columbia didn't take back some time by setting their train up for the sprint?


----------



## Buzzard

Stogaguy said:


> I have skimmed this thread but not had time to read it in detail. However, I did watch the stage on Versus. IMHO:<o></o>
> <o></o>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->1. <!--[endif]-->It is a shame that Hincapie did not get the opportunity to wear yellow. I have great respect for the guy and his career.<o></o>
> <o></o>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->2.<!--[endif]--> AG2R chased to defend the yellow jersey. This is entirely normal and their "duty".<o></o>
> 
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->3.<!--[endif]--> Garmin and others stepped in pulling at the end of the race when it became apparent that AG2R did not have the horsepower on their own to deny Big George the jersey.<o></o>
> <o></o>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->4.<!--[endif]--> Astana only chased earlier in the game to make sure that the break never got too big of a lead. They would have been happy to have Hincapie in yellow but not with a big margin. This is completely consistent with their own self-interest.<o></o>
> <o></o>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->5.<!--[endif]--> Columbia was not allowed to get the yellow jersey as a payback for their trash talking ways. This was old school "frontier justice"; something that has been going on in pro cycling for a very long time. Bottom line, a message was just sent, "keep talking smack and disrespecting the competition and we as a group will find a way to pay you back in spades". I am only sorry that Big George was made to pay the price for his whole team. Hey Cav, Who is finishing like juniors now?...<o></o><o>
> </o>


I agree 100% :thumbsup:


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Len J said:


> Brumneel is stirring up dirt.
> 
> Watch the replay..........If Colombia doesn't get on the point of the peleton in the final sprint......That 6 seconds doesn't happen.
> 
> len



In one aspect anyway, he may have _some_ relief from all the attention on the AC/LA media-fest. But it also complicates matters for him in other regards. 

You know, I really hope GH recovers well, somehow did not blow himself up and can continue on putting in fantastic showings. I'd love to see him finish high up. Would also love to see him take a stage even more than be in yellow.

Still, a bitter disappointment for him.


----------



## Len J

OldEndicottHiway said:


> In one aspect anyway, he may have _some_ relief from all the attention on the AC/LA media-fest. But it also complicates matters for him in other regards.
> 
> You know, I really hope GH recovers well, somehow did not blow himself up and can continue on putting in fantastic showings. I'd love to see him finish high up. Would also love to see him take a stage even more than be in yellow.


He did 30+% of the pulls for over 100K today and then chased down 3 or 4 attacks...............on the stage before 4 alpine stages.........I sjuspect he is toast.

This was his one chance.

Len


----------



## novagator

Precisely! If it wasn't an American, if it was Thomas Voeckler for instance, this would not even be an issue. Tomorrow we go back to the Astana soap opera and this is forgotten.




godot said:


> If this had happened to any rider in the peloton other than an American, would anyone on these boards care?


----------



## rugger

cyclejim said:


> I understand why he is angry however I yelled at the tv more than once wondering why he was near the back of his group looking around at the other riders. If you want the yellow you need to have your head down riding for your life. Sorry George you have no one to blame but yourself.


I agree, stop being a whiny pissant, if you want yellow, go for it. It's an individual sport, you can't always count on support. Both Lance and AC also want to win. Don't be such a *****.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Len J said:


> He did 30+% of the pulls for over 100K today and then chased down 3 or 4 attacks...............on the stage before 4 alpine stages.........I sjuspect he is toast.
> 
> This was his one chance.
> 
> Len



Perhaps Len, and probably so, unfortunately. But being ticked off can do wonders.

I remember a race I did where early on a chick freaked out about something, swerved over and hooked my bars and sent us cartwheeling. The Peloton took off. I was ready for that race...just somehow knew I would take it. Ended up the entire race as one lone rider chasing a bunch of chicks in 40 plus mph (seriously) head and sidewinds. Totally hammered myself. Never caught them, of course. I felt "robbed". 

I told my racing buddy that I'd win on the next day's crit, thrashed legs or not. And I did... with a broken rib to boot. That _shouldn't_ have happened.

Hoping GH legs still go, thrashed or not.


----------



## husonfirst

From what Bobke was saying at the end, it would be nearly impossible for the peloton to make up the time to keep Hincapie out of the yellow jersey. Shows how much he knows. 

Columbia didn't help by setting up the train. How many points was Cavendish going for at the finish of this stage? Also, is Columbia talking trash or just one [email protected] on the team?


----------



## Creakyknees

I really doubt that payback is the reason that Garmin pulled. 

Using up strong guys to chase, the day before a hard stage, I'd be surprised if "spite" is sufficient reason for that. 

I think there's something to the theory of forcing Astana to continue to lead the peloton tomorrow. That, IMO would be sufficient reason to have a couple guys work a bit.

He wants to put a guy on the GC podium, and that's easier to do if Astana's domestiques are worn out. 

A bit like trading pawns in chess - JV burns up 2 guys for 10k or so, forcing Astana to work all day tomorrow. Looks like a decent trade from here. 

Finally, why would he lie about it? 
Who knows; but LA has no ground to lecture anyone about subterfuge and mis-direction. 

(Not saying he has... yet, but some of his supporters are already piling on)

My own theory is, JV knew this would be unpopular amongst the Lance loving masses (and by extension GH loving) who don't understand the realites of TdF stage racing. He's gonna get roasted, perhaps he thought it better to have a lame cover story that the masses could understand, instead of explaining the cold hard facts of what it takes to get a guy on the podium of the Tour. 

Just my .02


----------



## ksanbon

Len J said:


> Watch the replay..........If Colombia doesn't get on the point of the peleton in the final sprint......That 6 seconds doesn't happen.
> len


 I need to ask because I really don't know - is it possible that the Columbia train could make up that much difference in such a short distance? Could another team do it if Columbia wasn't there?

Thanks.


----------



## California L33

For those who don't understand, Garmin went out to intentionally hurt Hincapie with no possible benefit for themselves. It looks like a horrible case of jealously because Farrar hasn't been able to beat Cavendish. Hurting someone because you can is the action of a sadist. It's a bit like a mountain climber unable to summit cutting the safety rope of the climber still going. 

I have two words for Jonathan Vaughters- Richard move. 

I like my Garmin GPS, and I won't junk it over this, but when it comes time to replace it, it might not be a Garmin.


----------



## zosocane

1. Wasn't the Garmin DS today in the team car Matt White, an ex-Discovery rider? And NOT JV?

2. In the last km it was plain as day that Tony Martin wasn't sure whether he should be ripping it forward or not, but the Columbia train had formed from a blocking front to a train to deliver Cav a few more green jersey points. That's easily 5 seconds right there.

**********

Sorry, I'm not a Garmin or Columbia fan, but Columbia has themselves to blame for not getting Hincapie in yellow. Ultimately, WHEN IT MATTERED MOST, Columbia's move in the last km because they were thinking more green than yellow was decisive. Watch the replay, the truth is there.

FWIW, I think Bob Stapleton is crybaby. Read some of his post-race quotes today on cyclingnews.com. Junior high school.


----------



## richwolf

California L33 said:


> For those who don't understand, Garmin went out to intentionally hurt Hincapie with no possible benefit for themselves. It looks like a horrible case of jealously because Farrar hasn't been able to beat Cavendish. Hurting someone because you can is the action of a sadist. It's a bit like a mountain climber unable to summit cutting the safety rope of the climber still going.
> 
> I have two words for Jonathan Vaughters- Richard move.
> 
> I like my Garmin GPS, and I won't junk it over this, but when it comes time to replace it, it might not be a Garmin.[/QUOTE
> 
> I can't understand blaming the Garmin company for a move made by the DS and threatening to buy another product because of one day at the TDF that they help sponsor so we can sit down and watch it.
> Now if someone makes a better product then buy it but who else is even in their league?


----------



## zosocane

1. Wasn't the Garmin DS today in the team car Matt White, an ex-Discovery rider? And NOT JV?

2. In the last km it was plain as day that Tony Martin wasn't sure whether he should be ripping it forward or not, but the Columbia train had formed from a blocking front to a train to deliver Cav a few more green jersey points. That's easily 5 seconds right there.

**********

Sorry, I'm not a Garmin or Columbia fan, but Columbia has themselves to blame for not getting Hincapie in yellow. Ultimately, WHEN IT MATTERED MOST, Columbia's move in the last km because they were thinking more green than yellow was decisive. Watch the replay, the truth is there.

FWIW, I think Bob Stapleton is crybaby. Read some of his post-race quotes today on cyclingnews.com. Junior high school.


----------



## zosocane

California L33 said:


> I have two words for Jonathan Vaughters- Richard move.


How do you know for sure that JV ordered that move? Wasn't Matt White the DS in the team car? And why did Columbia concern itself with getting Cav green jersey points at the expense of eating more than a couple of precious seconds out of George's would-be yellow?

I don't think this is black-and-white.


----------



## ChuckUni

55x11 said:


> Sorry, but... What a bunch of nonsense! What is the "unwritten rule of the sport"? Let some other guy win? Are you serious?!


Umm....Isn't that what you have been talking about this whole thread? Unwritten rule that they can't just let George have yellow?

Hey, I would have liked to see him in yellow, but when you have a history of being on teams that play rough or talk crap, what do you really expect? Also, those 5 secs were lost in many more places than just Garmin.


----------



## Red Sox Junkie

Creakyknees said:


> I really doubt that payback is the reason that Garmin pulled.
> 
> Using up strong guys to chase, the day before a hard stage, I'd be surprised if "spite" is sufficient reason for that.
> 
> I think there's something to the theory of forcing Astana to continue to lead the peloton tomorrow. That, IMO would be sufficient reason to have a couple guys work a bit.
> 
> He wants to put a guy on the GC podium, and that's easier to do if Astana's domestiques are worn out.
> 
> A bit like trading pawns in chess - JV burns up 2 guys for 10k or so, forcing Astana to work all day tomorrow. Looks like a decent trade from here.
> 
> Finally, why would he lie about it?
> Who knows; but LA has no ground to lecture anyone about subterfuge and mis-direction.
> 
> (Not saying he has... yet, but some of his supporters are already piling on)
> 
> My own theory is, JV knew this would be unpopular amongst the Lance loving masses (and by extension GH loving) who don't understand the realites of TdF stage racing. He's gonna get roasted, perhaps he thought it better to have a lame cover story that the masses could understand, instead of explaining the cold hard facts of what it takes to get a guy on the podium of the Tour.
> 
> Just my .02


I think this is MUCH closer to the truth than the conspiracy theories floating out there. I do think the JV cherrished the fact that it was Columbia that they were doing it to.


----------



## Art853

Garmin: We can't win a stage but we can work to prevent Hincapie from getting yellow. 
Incredibly poor sportsmanship on their part. That is their pay back for Columbia's domination of the leadout trains and sprints. The team that wasn't willing to help chase down breaks suddenly finds some energy. Amazing. 

Does Phil Ligget really not know what is going on, or is he just embarrassed to describe Garmin's tactics? "I don't know why Garmin is driving the peloton. Maybe they are practicing for their run into Paris." Paul then explained the team rivalries. 

The inter and intra team rivalries sure are making this tour interesting.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

bradsmith said:


> Article full of reactions from all over at VeloNews:
> http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/95404/
> 
> Some interesting snippets I'd like to bring up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italic emphasis is mine. So it seems at least the Astana team felt like if George took the jersey that Columbia would do all the work tomorrow. And they're probably right. And that would be bad news for Garmin, Silence-Lotto, etc. They'd much rather Astana control the race and use energy.
> 
> The interesting thing, though, is that no one on Garmin is mentioning that as the reasoning.



Best post of the thread. Garmin was protecting their GC interests by keeping Astana under pressure to defend. The rest of you know diddly.


----------



## California L33

richwolf said:


> I can't understand blaming the Garmin company for a move made by the DS and threatening to buy another product because of one day at the TDF that they help sponsor so we can sit down and watch it.
> Now if someone makes a better product then buy it but who else is even in their league?


Competitors that make good GPSs- Magellan, DeLorme, and several minor makers. 

Why would I think about not buying another Garmin? If I don't want to be associated with people who act in an unsportsmanlike way why should I? They had 'Garmin' written on their jerseys. Why should I want that written on my GPS? I carry that thing with me. People see me with it. Why should I want to purchase another GPS so that my money would indirectly go to a team that engages in unsportsmanlike activities? 

You can bet Garmin didn't give Slipstream a cent without a 'morals clause' in their contract that would allow them to drop Slipstream for bringing the company into disrepute.


----------



## Guest

California L33 said:


> Competitors that make good GPSs- Magellan, DeLorme, and several minor makers.
> 
> Why would I think about not buying another Garmin? If I don't want to be associated with people who act in an unsportsmanlike way why should I? They had 'Garmin' written on their jerseys. Why should I want that written on my GPS? I carry that thing with me. People see me with it. Why should I want to purchase another GPS so that my money would indirectly go to a team that engages in unsportsmanlike activities?
> 
> You can bet Garmin didn't give Slipstream a cent without a 'morals clause' in their contract that would allow them to drop Slipstream for bringing the company into disrepute.


What complete and utter codswollop.

Garmin got exactly what they, and a number of other teams want for tomorrow.

Astana pounding at the front.

Columbia tried to get both the green and yellow jersey and got neither - a classic over-reach.

This is a race, a competition. Not a gift giving session. There is nothing hee that is unsportsmanlike or "immoral" - what a laugh that is.

It is, as said above, a knife fight.

Grow up.

Garmin for their part are laughing all the way to the bank right now, every sportscast has their name on it. The old saying holds true - "good press, bad press, just spell my name right"


----------



## deltasierra

That was an awesome stage, and I'm a huge George fan. Pro cycling is pretty hard stuff.

Lance's twitter is so damage control-ish, it's hilarious. I'm so sick of people who think that Lance and Johan are the final words on cycling strategy.


----------



## 10HoursofSleep

Bradley Wiggins (Garmin Slipstream rider), “We thought George had the jersey at one stage, then [Garmin team manager] Matt White said to start chasing at the end so they didn’t get it,” Wiggins said. “Columbia were going off a bit and it all got a bit chaotic.” Wiggins later indicated that even he couldn’t fathom his own team’s tactics. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ark-Cavendish-teams-mired-in-controversy.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2009/columns/story?id=4338328

Garmin director Matt White vigorously denied that his orders were aimed at anything other than his team's best interests, which were to keep Vande Velde and Wiggins near the front. "We've been caught out twice," White said, referring to two occasions when splits in the peloton threatened to add precious seconds to Vande Velde's and Wiggins' gap to Armstrong and race favorite Alberto Contador. (One of those splits evaporated when race officials reviewed film and realized it had never existed.)

<B>Somebody is lying and it looks like:
0% Bradley Wiggins (Garmin Rider)
1% Daniel Friebe (Telegraph.Co.UK writer)
99% Matt White (Garmin DS) <--- Most likely to be the top jerk of the 2009 TDF
</B>


----------



## BroughAJ

> I can't understand blaming the Garmin company for a move made by the DS and threatening to buy another product because of one day at the TDF that they help sponsor so we can sit down and watch it.
> Now if someone makes a better product then buy it but who else is even in their league?


No one makes a better product, at least for the US market. I own a product that competes with Garmin and just about every day it does something that makes me want to throw it out my car window. 

As for bike racing, I'm not the most experienced on these boards or out on the road, but I still see this as too much of a blame game. Just race! Watching the replay, how can Garmin completely be blamed when it seems like only one of their guys was even out in front of the train? Wouldn't a multi-maned team train be more effective if their sole goal was to screw GH or Colombia? Then again,as I said, I am new and I want to learn more.


----------



## uzziefly

IMHO, ag2r are unclassy and lied when they said they wouldn't chase. 

Astana did NOT chase. They rode tempo and the time gap increased iirc but for sure, they did not chase. 

Ag2r did. Columbia slowed things down to no avail. They set the train up only to disrupt things.


----------



## Tschai

jsedlak said:


> only by a few seconds. If you give the man a few minutes he might just be able to hold it until Paris. Far shot, I know, but crazier things have happened.


Same goes for Garmin.


----------



## California L33

fornaca68 said:


> How do you know for sure that JV ordered that move? Wasn't Matt White the DS in the team car? And why did Columbia concern itself with getting Cav green jersey points at the expense of eating more than a couple of precious seconds out of George's would-be yellow?
> 
> I don't think this is black-and-white.


If Garmin didn't drive it wouldn't have even been close. As to who ordered it, I guess that's up for debate, but I can't believe JV wasn't at least watching and didn't have a cell phone. It seems odd that nobody in the Garmin organization thought that it wouldn't look good to act like petulant children. 

Now if only Garmin could organize its lead out as well as it drove the peloton, maybe Farrar would have a stage win or two.


----------



## wipeout

cyclejim said:


> I understand why he is angry however I yelled at the tv more than once wondering why he was near the back of his group looking around at the other riders. If you want the yellow you need to have your head down riding for your life. Sorry George you have no one to blame but yourself.


Agreed. Astana did the correct tactical move and kept the break within 5-6 minutes then backed off. George didn't work hard enough in the break to earn yellow.


----------



## j3fri

to be honest,i agree with some views here that garmin tactical chase was fantastic...

it forced astana to be at the front tml to defend and take control early instead of columbia controlling... it will tire astana out and burn a few more domestiques which might make a difference in the climb since levi is out...

i'm sure other teams like silence,saxobanks,cervelo,rabobank and other small gc teams would be very happy with garmin move yesterday,giving them slightly better chance today...

the only teams not happy is columbia and astana... even ag2r was happy..

anyway columbia got themselves to blame.. they shoot the pack for 'junior racing' the other day and make enemies when they split the pack.... its their payback.. they got greedy,wanting yellow and green...


----------



## JohnnyChance

First things first, its a race, competition. You should never expect a gift. Not a time to give a random nice guy some "lifetime achievement" glory. Garmin has no reason to help you do ****.

Second, George didnt have much left in the last 10k. He was hardly on the front, if at all, after Ivanov left. If he did and he didnt pull more, then its 100% his fault.

Third, if Astana really wants to give him a gift, let the lead balloon up to 15 minutes while youre at the front. You know the speed is going to ramp up regardless of who is pulling, why leave him a 2-3 min cushion? Instead you leave it within the grasp of a minimal effort by the peloton, and then take Columbia's side and complain about other tactics. Its not about making Garmin the enemy for Astana, its about making Columbia a friend.

Fourth, the podium is crowded. Its Lance or Conti on top it seems, and one of them plus VDV, Wiggins, Evans, Menchov, Kirchen, Sastre, Klodi, Shlecks, Nibali, Sanchez, etc fighting for 2 more spots. You think any of those guys, especially Evans or Menchov, want to give 2, 3, 4, 5 min to a guy who can climb decently well and TT decently well? Thats why some are up front at the end. Plus, its safer up front! Ask Levi!

Fifth, and prob most importantly, Columbia in yellow hurts any team with a contender. Astana is the powerhouse, why would you let them sit back and conserve energy on a mountain stage!? Your only hope is break up Astana's train. Thats why Cadel is pushing at the end. You put in 1k of work and Astana has to work all day tm? Sounds like a good trade off to me. 

Sixth, if you really want to give George the best shot, tell Cav to sit on Thor's wheel, and take the 1 or 2 less points in the sprint. Or let Cav nip Thor at the line, not like he cant do that. Dont have your leadout train fan out and soft pedal towards the finish instead. You look cheap, and fortunately you got punished for it.

Seventh, its 5 seconds. Nobody knows either way how its going. If garmin really wanted to ensure George didnt get it, they would have drilled it and he would have missed it by 30 seconds.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

GH gets the yellow jersey and Columbia will defend. Everyone here has been b**** and moaning how strong they are. guess what? Astana sits bad all day and has a fresh team for the climbs.

AG2R keeps the jersey. They are weak and Astana rides tempo burning their riders. There is not way they can protect all their riders and maybe some lose some places on GC. THIS BENEFITS ALL THE TEAMS WITH GC ASPIRATIONS!!!!!!

That is why the other GC teams were chasing. Garmin earned friends today!

I would love to play a chess tournament for cash with most of the posters on this thread. And I do not even play chess...

I am actually ashamed to be American here. Everyone is looking at the from a nationalistic perspective rather than teams wanting to knock some GC riders down no matter how they can do it. Sucks to lose cause of long term strategy.

GUESS WHAT. Hincapie benefited from team tactics like this a few years ago when he sat on a rider all day and sprinted to take the stage. You wins some and you lose some.

And I say this with the utmost respect of George. It would be awesome to see him in yellow and I would love him to take a stage. I have also watched him come so close in classics and been frustrated that he could never quite get the huge win. He is a class act and have actually met him a few times. He and JB are also pretty close. I work for a company that is closely associated with GH.


----------



## brentster

JohnnyChance said:


> First things first, its a race, competition. You should never expect a gift. Not a time to give a random nice guy some "lifetime achievement" glory. Garmin has no reason to help you do ****.
> 
> Second, George didnt have much left in the last 10k. He was hardly on the front, if at all, after Ivanov left. If he did and he didnt pull more, then its 100% his fault.
> 
> Third, if Astana really wants to give him a gift, let the lead balloon up to 15 minutes while youre at the front. You know the speed is going to ramp up regardless of who is pulling, why leave him a 2-3 min cushion? Instead you leave it within the grasp of a minimal effort by the peloton, and then take Columbia's side and complain about other tactics. Its not about making Garmin the enemy for Astana, its about making Columbia a friend.
> 
> Fourth, the podium is crowded. Its Lance or Conti on top it seems, and one of them plus VDV, Wiggins, Evans, Menchov, Kirchen, Sastre, Klodi, Shlecks, Nibali, Sanchez, etc fighting for 2 more spots. You think any of those guys, especially Evans or Menchov, want to give 2, 3, 4, 5 min to a guy who can climb decently well and TT decently well? Thats why some are up front at the end. Plus, its safer up front! Ask Levi!
> 
> Fifth, and prob most importantly, Columbia in yellow hurts any team with a contender. Astana is the powerhouse, why would you let them sit back and conserve energy on a mountain stage!? Your only hope is break up Astana's train. Thats why Cadel is pushing at the end. You put in 1k of work and Astana has to work all day tm? Sounds like a good trade off to me.
> 
> Sixth, if you really want to give George the best shot, tell Cav to sit on Thor's wheel, and take the 1 or 2 less points in the sprint. Or let Cav nip Thor at the line, not like he cant do that. Dont have your leadout train fan out and soft pedal towards the finish instead. You look cheap, and you fortunately you got punished for it.
> 
> Seventh, its 5 seconds. Nobody knows either way how its going. If garmin really wanted to ensure George didnt get it, they would have drilled it and he would have missed it by 30 seconds.


Johnny Chance gets my vote for the Post of the Day.


----------



## Doctor Who

Big LOLs at all the people talking about refusing to buy Garmin products because of that team's move today. 

So junior high.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

Doctor Who said:


> Big LOLs at all the people talking about refusing to buy Garmin products because of that team's move today.
> 
> So junior high.


Yes, we should start penalizing companies that sponsor cycling teams so the sport can dry up even more. Sows the lack of long term strategic thinking that permeates this thread.


----------



## oarsman

Maximus_XXIV said:


> GH gets the yellow jersey and Columbia will defend. Everyone here has been b**** and moaning how strong they are. guess what? Astana sits bad all day and has a fresh team for the climbs.
> 
> AG2R keeps the jersey. They are weak and Astana rides tempo burning their riders. There is not way they can protect all their riders and maybe some lose some places on GC. THIS BENEFITS ALL THE TEAMS WITH GC ASPIRATIONS!!!!!!
> 
> That is why the other GC teams were chasing. Garmin earned friends today!
> 
> .


That's my take too. Of course Astana wanted Hincapie in yellow. That would help their chances. And leaving the yellow where it is helps Saxo-Bank, Garmin and Silence-Lotto.

The outrage in this thread seems to be mostly about wanting an American (admittedly a popular and worthy cyclist) in Yellow. One of the threads talked about whether a French team would chase a French cyclist down - uh, duh - of course they would if it helped the team. Same with a Spanish or Italian team.


----------



## Tschai

1. Boycotting Garmin = totally pathetic. 

2. Garmin and the other teams not wanting Columbia in yellow because of how it negatively impacts them on Sunday is just about the only thing that makes sense in this entire thread as to why Garmin chased. 

3. Another name for this year's tour should be the Tour de George's Whining. Today was not the first day GH whined about other teams in this year's tour. When I saw his prior interview of him whining, I thought to myself: WTF? Shut up and ride. Big George is a great rider, but he is also a whiner. 

4. I really like the better known riders on Garmin. Although Cavendish is the best at what he does, I find it hard to like him. 

5. Columbia's windup for the sprint at the end = pathetic. Cavendish's sprint = more pathetic.


----------



## CHL

Cavendish clearly didn't sprint at the finish. He was confused at the situation. Should he sprint or should he hold back to try to get George in Yellow. 

Although, what does Garmin or Astana gain by having AG2R hold the yellow jersey vs Columbia HTC?

CHL


----------



## Eric_H

Yawn.

Classic Hincapie, gutless riding WHEN IT MATTERED. In the last 20K, he knew the time gap was close and that the speed of the group behind would pick up regardless of whether it was Garmin or someone else drilling it. Cervelo might have put a couple up front at the end to help Thor if it had played out differently. Seriously, when the gap was 5:30 was the pack supposed to just say "Oh great for George, let's shut her down"??

My point is that Hincapie had destiny in his hands in the finale and he chose to ride conservatively. Don't give me crap about all the work he had done to that point, he knew the time gaps and situation. I think he might have even gambled on someone else covering Ivanov's attack so he could potentially go for the stage win AND yellow. Honestly, GH is the most over-rated rider of his generation and today proved his general lack of tactical nous when something big is on the line. 

And why should Vaughters have to text apologies to GH's brother? C'mon man, grow a pair. You made a ballsy move today (assuming it was JV and not Matt White), just leave it with no apologies, Lance-style. And I agree, LA and Bruyneel are only complaining because they can't make Columbia be the b*tches all the way to Verbier.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

CHL said:


> Cavendish clearly didn't sprint at the finish. He was confused at the situation. Should he sprint or should he hold back to try to get George in Yellow.
> 
> Although, what does Garmin or Astana gain by having AG2R hold the yellow jersey vs Columbia HTC?
> 
> CHL


Try reading the 5 posts above yours....


----------



## CHL

Understood on that Maximus, I just don't understand what Garmin or Astana gain "tactically" for the upcoming stages. What difference does it make if it's AG2R or Columbia HTC?

Does it reduce the work load for Garmin or Astana? It's just my lack of understanding in racing tactics.

CHL


----------



## JohnnyChance

CHL said:


> Understood on that Maximus, I just don't understand what Garmin or Astana gain "tactically" for the upcoming stages. What difference does it make if it's AG2R or Columbia HTC?
> 
> Does it reduce the work load for Garmin or Astana? It's just my lack of understanding in racing tactics.
> 
> CHL


AG2R will no longer defend the yellow jersey, since they have no shot of keeping it through the mountains. Thus the work of setting the pace and defending against attacks falls on Astana with the best placed GC contenders.

If Columbia has the yellow, they have a strong team, and a rider will a slightly better chance of holding onto it for a day or two, they will work and set the pace through the mountains.

Astana is the strongest team, with the 2 best placed GC contenders. The only chance Garmin, Saxo, Lotto, Rabobank, etc have of displacing Astana from the top of the leader board is by making them work.

Thats why you saw Garmin and Lotto on the front in the last 5k bringing back the gap. Nocentini in yellow means Astana has to work tomorrow. Hincapie in yellow means Astana gets to save some legs for later in the race. 

If you are racing against a stronger team, why make it easier for them? Make them do as much work as possible and hope they weaken enough to give yourself a chance.


----------



## ultimobici

I am truly amazed at the vitriol directed at JV, especially the comments about Garmin's chances of a podium place being hampered by his lack of tactical nous.

Ask Jean Claude Colotti about his stage of the 92 Tour.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling-colotti-makes-a-clean-break-1535029.html

This was a win born out of a feud between Peter Post and Jan Raas. They were two of the sharpest tactical minds in cycling from the 70's to early 90's, yet they ordered their riders to never cooperate.

As GH's mate LA said many years ago - "no gifts"


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

CHL said:


> Understood on that Maximus, I just don't understand what Garmin or Astana gain "tactically" for the upcoming stages. What difference does it make if it's AG2R or Columbia HTC?
> 
> Does it reduce the work load for Garmin or Astana? It's just my lack of understanding in racing tactics.
> 
> CHL



AG2R keeps the jersey. They are weak and Astana rides tempo burning their riders. There is not way they can protect all their riders and maybe some lose some places on GC. THIS BENEFITS ALL THE TEAMS WITH GC ASPIRATIONS!!!!!!


----------



## il sogno

Creakyknees said:


> I really doubt that payback is the reason that Garmin pulled.
> 
> Using up strong guys to chase, the day before a hard stage, I'd be surprised if "spite" is sufficient reason for that.
> 
> I think there's something to the theory of forcing Astana to continue to lead the peloton tomorrow. That, IMO would be sufficient reason to have a couple guys work a bit.
> 
> He wants to put a guy on the GC podium, and that's easier to do if Astana's domestiques are worn out.
> 
> A bit like trading pawns in chess - JV burns up 2 guys for 10k or so, forcing Astana to work all day tomorrow. Looks like a decent trade from here.
> 
> Finally, why would he lie about it?
> Who knows; but LA has no ground to lecture anyone about subterfuge and mis-direction.
> 
> (Not saying he has... yet, but some of his supporters are already piling on)
> 
> My own theory is, JV knew this would be unpopular amongst the Lance loving masses (and by extension GH loving) who don't understand the realites of TdF stage racing. He's gonna get roasted, perhaps he thought it better to have a lame cover story that the masses could understand, instead of explaining the cold hard facts of what it takes to get a guy on the podium of the Tour.
> 
> Just my .02


I think you are spot on here. Garmin wanted to make sure Astana, not Columbia would be working on the front tomorrow.


----------



## Sojourneyman

Stapleton reacts, takes the chance to remind us all how good Columbia is, compliments George to insult Lance, and really doesn't seem to do well under stress. 



> "I’m really disappointed and at the right time I’ll talk to Jonathon [Vaughters]. The fact is we’ve won nearly 60 races this year and they’ve won less than 10 so they’re probably tired of seeing our guys in jerseys and I understand that. But to hurt George Hincapie in that way just doesn’t seem right to me. He’s the most liked cyclist in America and the second most known," Stapleton said.


From Cyclingnews

I started out not liking Garmins move, but the more I've pondered it the more it made sense.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Sojourneyman said:


> Stapleton reacts, takes the chance to remind us all how good Columbia is, compliments George to insult Lance, and really doesn't seem to do well under stress.
> 
> 
> 
> From Cyclingnews
> 
> I started out not liking Garmins move, but the more I've pondered it the more it made sense.


Hahaha. That is great. I really had nothing against Stapleton, but now he looks like a whiner and sore loser. What a d-bag.

Youre going to talk to JV? Really? And ask him why he didnt let his guy win? Waaaaaaaa! All you do is talk crap about his team, and now hes supposed to let your guy win (in a sense), despite the fact he didnt have the legs the last 10k to do it his damn self? Hes the coach of AN OPPOSING TEAM. Just cause hes american and george is a nice guy, he should have his guy sit up? Are you going to call up the directors of AG2R and Lotto too?

Im not a rabid Lance fan, nor do I hate him. I like GH reasonably well, as everyone says, hes super nice, I have no reason to hate him. I have no strong feelings for Cav, Columbia as a whole, or Garmin. Im fairly neutral on the whole bunch. I do feel bad for GH sometimes, he seems to have some bad luck here and there. But to think Garmin owes something to him because hes from the same giant melting pot of a country youre from and hes old and nice and hasnt won tons of races is ridiculous. You want to win races? Be an a-hole and have the fckin legs. Worked for Lance.


----------



## uzziefly

j3fri said:


> to be honest,i agree with some views here that garmin tactical chase was fantastic...
> 
> it forced astana to be at the front tml to defend and take control early instead of columbia controlling... it will tire astana out and burn a few more domestiques which might make a difference in the climb since levi is out...
> 
> i'm sure other teams like silence,saxobanks,cervelo,rabobank and other small gc teams would be very happy with garmin move yesterday,giving them slightly better chance today...
> 
> the only teams not happy is columbia and astana... even ag2r was happy..
> 
> anyway columbia got themselves to blame.. they shoot the pack for 'junior racing' the other day and make enemies when they split the pack.... its their payback.. they got greedy,wanting yellow and green...


No, it's not their fault the entire peloton was napping and got gapped. The riders who weren't napping or who were at least aware made the effort to chase and keep up.

Shame on the peloton and kudos to Columbia if anything. If the peloton is sore about this, pull out of the damn tour and go sit in a corner and kit cashmere sweaters to wipe their tears away.

Just addressing the split issue.


----------



## uzziefly

JohnnyChance said:


> First things first, its a race, competition. You should never expect a gift. Not a time to give a random nice guy some "lifetime achievement" glory. Garmin has no reason to help you do ****.
> 
> Second, George didnt have much left in the last 10k. He was hardly on the front, if at all, after Ivanov left. If he did and he didnt pull more, then its 100% his fault.
> 
> Third, if Astana really wants to give him a gift, let the lead balloon up to 15 minutes while youre at the front. You know the speed is going to ramp up regardless of who is pulling, why leave him a 2-3 min cushion? Instead you leave it within the grasp of a minimal effort by the peloton, and then take Columbia's side and complain about other tactics. Its not about making Garmin the enemy for Astana, its about making Columbia a friend.
> 
> Fourth, the podium is crowded. Its Lance or Conti on top it seems, and one of them plus VDV, Wiggins, Evans, Menchov, Kirchen, Sastre, Klodi, Shlecks, Nibali, Sanchez, etc fighting for 2 more spots. You think any of those guys, especially Evans or Menchov, want to give 2, 3, 4, 5 min to a guy who can climb decently well and TT decently well? Thats why some are up front at the end. Plus, its safer up front! Ask Levi!
> 
> Fifth, and prob most importantly, Columbia in yellow hurts any team with a contender. Astana is the powerhouse, why would you let them sit back and conserve energy on a mountain stage!? Your only hope is break up Astana's train. Thats why Cadel is pushing at the end. You put in 1k of work and Astana has to work all day tm? Sounds like a good trade off to me.
> 
> Sixth, if you really want to give George the best shot, tell Cav to sit on Thor's wheel, and take the 1 or 2 less points in the sprint. Or let Cav nip Thor at the line, not like he cant do that. Dont have your leadout train fan out and soft pedal towards the finish instead. You look cheap, and fortunately you got punished for it.
> 
> Seventh, its 5 seconds. Nobody knows either way how its going. If garmin really wanted to ensure George didnt get it, they would have drilled it and he would have missed it by 30 seconds.


Valid. But Astana couldn't soft pedal all the way because someone was definitely also gonna go to the front and ramp the pace up. So, they rode at a pace that wasn't too slow for anyone to decide "Ok that's enough. We're chasing."

And, Columbia won't defend the yellow today in all likelihood anyway. They might, but that's not what they want to go for IMO. 

Just what I think though.


----------



## eugkim

*I*

While I would have liked GH in yellow, a few observations.

1) Stapleton and Columbia should let their results do the talking; As Teddy Roosevelt said, "speak softly and carry a big stick." Frankly, I was as surprised by how Stapleton allowed his team to start against Garmin in the Giro as I was to see the latter chase down Hincapie. 

2) Johann and Lance, have no business pretending they wear white gloves. Isn't it convenient and popular for them to call out Garmin for their actions when, if in the same situation, they wouldn't hesitate for a second to do exactly the same thing. Plus, would they have tried to get Hincapie into yellow if it didn't benefit them in the long run? Having Columbia protecting the yellow would have been a great asset for Astana.

3) There is no question that Garmin and others profit from Columbia out of yellow. Whether you believe Wiggins or VDV have any chance of a podium finish, the fact remains they are in contention and have a chance. Who would have believed in 07 that Contador had any chance of winning? He was about 3 minutes down and destined to finish, at best, second. Who knows what can happen? Garmin has to protect their interests with the hope and assumption that Wiggins and VDV can produce over the last week. Having to fight a strong Columbia squad protecting a jersey they can't keep anyway with Astana sitting on their heels seems like a HUGE waste of energy for Garmin. If JV were smart, he'd say this outright. 

4) Hincapie ultimately shouldn't blame anyone but himself. He rode a nice race, but is he supposed to be given the yellow jersey? Did he really not have 6 seconds he could have gained somewhere? Come on, no gifts.

Despite all this, I'm sorry that he isn't in yellow.


----------



## shomyoface

88 rex said:


> I was actually referring to you and all the complainers about how George was not gifted the yellow today.
> 
> Hincapie is not a sissy, but he is crying.


Hincapie's wining is pissing me off. If he WANTED the yellow, he didn't demonstrate that he deserved it in the final few miles of the race. With 5k to go, he sat it and didn't work as hard as the others. He knew he needed every second, and that the teams would come speeding towards the end for the sprinters, experience shows this, and he has completed enough Tours. He should have lead the chase to Ivanov and dragged his sorry arse over the line 6 seconds faster.

IT'S A RACE GEORGE.......EVERY SECOND COUNTS.


----------



## peterk

I'm a rookie when it comes to understanding race tactics, but I saw no mention of Columbia during the discussion on VERSUS. Shouldn't have Columbia done their part to protect GH? I would think that they could have taken the front instead of Astana, thus setting the pace and creating enough gap between the lead and the peloton. 

Thoughts?


----------



## shomyoface

Hincapie's wining is pissing me off. If he WANTED the yellow, he didn't demonstrate that he deserved it in the final few miles of the race. With 5k to go, he sat it and didn't work as hard as the others. He knew he needed every second, and that the teams would come speeding towards the end for the sprinters, experience shows this, and he has completed enough Tours. He should have lead the chase to Ivanov and dragged his sorry arse over the line 6 seconds faster.

IT'S A RACE GEORGE.......EVERY SECOND COUNTS.


----------



## ChuckUni

shomyoface said:


> Hincapie's wining is pissing me off. If he WANTED the yellow, he didn't demonstrate that he deserved it in the final few miles of the race. With 5k to go, he sat it and didn't work as hard as the others. He knew he needed every second, and that the teams would come speeding towards the end for the sprinters, experience shows this, and he has completed enough Tours. He should have lead the chase to Ivanov and dragged his sorry arse over the line 6 seconds faster.
> 
> IT'S A RACE GEORGE.......EVERY SECOND COUNTS.


Bingo. He had to know it would be close, EARN it. That's part of the reason I don't really feel sorry for him. Or maybe he was really cooked at the end. In that case, too bad, that's racing.

It's really amazing that many here expected all the other teams to ride tempo to gift him the yellow jersey.


----------



## DZfan14

Hincapie and Columbia should go find the waaaaaaaambulance. They've done some great things this tour but they've also been the biggest crybabies. First they whined because none of the other sprint teams would come to the front to help Boy Racer win. And now this.

Phil and Paul are completely clueless this morning. They openly wondered why Garmin didn't chase earlier. Well duh..they had a guy in the break and so did like eleven other teams.


----------



## j3fri

i'd say garmin and silence lotto yesterday tactic worked.. astana forced on the front to chase now..


----------



## identifiler

2005 stage 15, Oscar Pereiro's prayers might have been answered. Karma baby. Not often a stage winner gets booed... I like Georges but he needs to sharpen up a bit.


----------



## ericrob

*Hincapie lost the jersey on his own*

OK so George was pissed off, but at what exactly? That the other riders didn't stop racing so he could take yellow for one day? Grow up George! If you had chased down Sergei Ivanov you wouldn't have lost 16 seconds to him (16 seconds that would have given you yellow). There's no one to blame but yourself.


----------



## alexb618

'no gifts' obviously doesnt apply to friends


----------



## emsf5

First Hincapie. And Now Watson! Cink beat him a playoff what an ass, couldn't just let the old guy have his day one last time, The nerve of some people!


----------



## saddle tramp

I haven't read all the posts here but my take on this is Vaughters venge on this is we can't beat Cavendish but we can beat Hincapie?


----------



## Richard

We can go on and on about this but in the final analysis when Ivanov went, big George should have stopped dicking around with the others, put his nose on the stem, and TT'd to the finish. If he didn't have the legs then he didn't deserve the jersey.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM

I feel bad for George but racing is racing.. Lance and him might be friends but they weren't about to give him a substantial lead when Columbia is kicking arse in this tour. 

5 seconds is a slap in the face though.. So I def understand why he's upset.


----------



## austincrx

So, obviously George needed some help in the break, why didn't any of his teammates go with him? I have only seen the last 20k of the stage, so I dono. It seems that when you have a contender (atleast for your team) in a break, you want more than one team member going. Maybe this would have caused the other teams to chase them down quickly?

I feel sorry for George, would have been AMAZING had he been in yellow yesterday. From the interview with LA, it seems his attitude read "That's racing, George. Too bad, but that's racing." And that he didn't care _that_ much.

As for George not working, it seems the more than once he had to be the one on the front of the break keeping the pace up and making everyone work. They seemed content to just sit in and didn't really care about a big gap.

All this about Columbia Whining the whole tour. We look-on with awe at these amazing athletes and yet we are so quick to criticize when they feel disappointed with themselves/others. I personally don't care if they are whining or not. I know C-HTC hasn't been whining the whole tour, they have been doing pretty well. If they whine once in 14 stages, that's pretty dang good to me. We shouldn't hear anything else out of them, right?!

He will just be that much hungry-er for yellow if he gets another chance after the mountains.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM

I do find it funny that we criticize all the pro cyclists yet not one of us could likely hold on to the wheel of any of them for long. 

Watching yesterdays stage when the lead riders from Columbia were pulling the peloton. The first rider was pushing 176 BPM at 26mph making over 345 watts.. 
I have no idea what my wattage is but I know at 176 bpm I'm maybe able to hold 22-24 for any length of time. So yeah.. they'll kill me!


----------



## svend

55x11 said:


> Imagine a french team preventing Voeckler from getting yellow for no gain. Imagine a swiss rider ordering to chase down Cancellar, or belgian team asking to chase down Boonen, again, for no gain, just out of spite. Imagine Euskalel chasing down Sanchez, out of spite.
> 
> No, it doesn't happen all the time, and yes, there would be many fans outraged over this deuchy tactic. Whatever, I just hope JV can sleep at night.
> 
> I agree with Stapleton:
> "Their tactics were obvious and disappointing. It was a big effort to pull the jersey off his back.... I don’t know why you’d do that with George. That would have been a victory for everyone and would have got attention all over the US. An American in yellow would magnify the sport incredibly..."
> 
> Chris Carmichael: "wow, garmin!...why?"
> 
> Wiggins: "This man does'nt quite understand what went on today. @ghincapie is a legend and deserves to be in yellow tonight!"
> 
> Bruyneel: "Bummed, really bummed about George Hincapie not getting yellow. Won't elaborate on the strategies but what Garmin did was just BS. Sorry!"
> “I don’t understand why Garmin were working so hard, it seemed like they weren’t happy that another American team should have the race lead,” Bruyneel said.
> “This episode could have longer-term sequels. Racing against another team like that is not good, not something that should happen in the Tour.”
> 
> Zabriskie: "Pawns in their game..."


Bingo.... JV entered the halls of douchebaggery.... no class


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

As long as we are gifting, LA should get the Ventoux win. Just saying...


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

The fact that Lotto joined in tells me that there was a GC concern. od course, there are people on this forum that are just plain bitter and refuse to see the 'facts' that they want to see and conveniently ignore JB and LA saying that Columbia would defend and it would be good for Astana along with Lotto joining in and LAs own history of 'no gifts' for trash talking competitors.


----------



## ericrob

This thread is lasting longer than George would have held the Yellow jersey anyway. I think we should let it die.


----------



## Art853

Gift: not working when working would be to your advantage. 
Spite: working, when not working would be to your advantage, to deny an opponent an accolade you are unable to obtain for your team. 

If Garmin was concerned about time gaps of their riders to the yellow jersey why didn’t they take turns doing tempo work in the peloton during the stage when time gaps were of the order of several minutes? Oh, right, Garmin doesn’t “do work.” Instead they send riders to the front to hammer furiously in the last 10 km in order to get one minute back so Hincapie doesn’t get yellow. 

Any work done by Columbia to “defend the yellow jersey” would 1) be a lost cause, and 2) use up energy that would be better used in the Alps and the Champs-Élysées. Maybe Garmin would win a stage for once. As it is Garmin just used up energy for no benefit and made themselves look bad. It was just an attempt by Garmin to prevent Columbia from obtaining additional success they have been unable to obtain on their own.


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## Maximus_XXIV

Wasn't George complaining that none of the other teams were doing work to bring back breaks?

Just sayin....


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## 55x11

55x11 said:


> ... who needs enemies?
> 
> Why did american-leadership "friends" chased down big George? Are they that jealous of another american taking the yellow? Bizarre...


This thread should really die by now, as by this time the only relevance it provides is that it reveals the level of cycling and team tactics knowledge (or, alarmingly prevailing, complete lack thereof) of various posters. But forget all that nonsense and read what actual professional Tour riders think:

http://www.velonews.com/article/95629


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## QUiTSPiNiNArOuND

I am not sure whether or not Michael Barry was saying Hincapie never got yellow that day or ever. Hincapie got the yellow jersey in 2006, stage 1. I also still don't understand why he was saying Astana chased. Astana allowed the gap to open to 8 minutes.


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## bas

55x11 said:


> ... who needs enemies?
> 
> Why did american-leadership "friends" chased down big George? Are they that jealous of another american taking the yellow? Bizarre...


*

You all forgot about Columbia/HTC pissing off Garmin Stage 3.

PAYBACK is a b0tch! 
*


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=178604

" albert owen
RoadBikeReview Member

user gallery 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 240

Just heard that _Cav has taunted Garmin again, saying that they "raced like Juniors"_. He is still carrying a grudge about Wiggins letting him down in the Olympic Madison I reckon and is enjoying rubbing his ex-team mate's nose in it."

*
Hincapie was calling out Garmin:
*

"Old 2 Weeks Ago #5
LWP
in bucket we trust...

user gallery 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 189

Don't have a link. Just the post-race interview during the broadcast. He's classy enough that wouldn't give specific names but he clearly was unhappy that certain members of the field sat back and let Columbia do all the work before the break. In fact, he specifically named that lack of racing from other members of the field as a motivator to make the break happen.
__________________"


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## Guest

55x11 said:


> Hincapie is a "crying sissy"? oooook...
> 
> This is called stupid racing - Garmin was wasting energy before Alpine stage to settle some pitiful personal grudge of DS and as a result gained absolutely nothing in return. This is not helpful to Garmin riders in the long run.
> 
> *I predict that at the end of the Tour cock-blocking Hincapie from yellow will be their most proud accomplishment as a team. I am switching my GPS to TomTom*.


lol........Too funny, I cant stop laughing. People here at work think I'm nuts !


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## ArkRider

emsf5 said:


> Can someone tell me what other sport/competition would anyone hold back or play nice so their buddy can have the glory? Do you think if Tiger was one stroke down with two to play and O'meara was leading he'd help him read putts or make bogey's on purpose. I doubt it!
> 
> It's the nature of competition!


Huh. All this time I thought this was a bicycle race and not golf. All I can say is that someone better get with it, I haven't seen anyone get a little ball in a hole yet.

Different sport, different dynamics, different stratagems, different goals, different means, ad nauseam.


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