# Seat fore/aft: How far forward is too far foreward?



## Straz85

Hi everyone, I've been having some seat fore/aft issues. A little background first:

I'm new to road biking. I've been a mountain biker for a couple years, road biking started to interest me at the end of last summer when I started to get sick of riding at the couple state parks close to me or driving over an hour. Lately I've been getting very interested in it, I haven't been on either of my mountain bikes in a couple weeks, just the road bike.

When I got the bike, I was professionally fitted, I have a very good relationship with the LBS, and the owner always helps me out with any fitment issues free of charge. When I first got the bike, he set the seat height and fore/aft, told me to ride a couple times, then come back and we would do the rest of the fitting after I got a feel for the bike. The first couple rides, my inner thighs were burning very quickly, after a couple rides, it went away, I figured I got used to it. Soon after, I started to get a lot of pain in my butt from the seat and some numbness in my gentleman parts. I got fitted for a seat, mine was 13mm too narrow, I got one the correct width, it didn't help. I then realized I was sitting too far forward on the seat.

Back to the LBS I go, we put my bike on the trainer, and I was told I had my seat further forward than he would usually put it, he moved it back almost 2cm and I did my best to force myself to keep my sit bones on the widest part of the seat, now the burning in my inner thighs was back, just as an experiment, I moved forward a couple inches, within 30 seconds, the burning was gone. When I got home, I took a non-setback seatpost I had and put that on, now the seat was about 3cm further forward than I was told it should be in my fitting, but I'm more comfortable. I did my longest ride ever last weekend, 50 miles. I had numbness that took 6 days to totally go away, now the pain didn't come on as fast, but I'm still getting it, and I am still sitting forward on the seat.

I really don't think it's a reach issue, that was part of the fitting too, my upper body is comfortable when I'm forcing myself back where I should be sitting but I feel like I'm in by far the most comfortable pedaling position when I'm forward, when I force myself back, it just feels awkward.

Sorry that was so long and drawn out, and thanks to anyone who actually reads it all!  

Here's a couple pictures of my current seat position, this is exactly how it was set up for the 50 mile ride. Note: I have short legs and a long torso, the bike is a 54cm Scott Speedster S20, 110mm stem. I am 5' 9.5" with a 30.5" insteam. 



















Sorry for the kind of crappy photos, I'm in the middle of moving and my camera is packed, those are cell phone pics.


----------



## heathb

As long as your saddle is level and you feel like your sit bones are well placed over the wider part of your saddle I see no problem with it.

Some believe that the front of the knee shouldn't go past the front of the pedal axle. However you'll find cyclist that do this all the time and do just fine. 

Don't obsess with what your fit guy tells you, just work out the most comfy position for you with lots of miles and eventually it will work its self out. Keep in mind that some bike fit guys are nazi's when it comes to "it has to be done this way because this is the most accepted way". 

You'll continue to change up your position as you get more and more accustomed to riding. I've been riding for many years and I change things about my bike fit most every year, looking for a balance between power, comfort and of course the fact that I'm getting older and have a back that wants to give me a little a grief now and again.


----------



## Hank Stamper

If reach is good but you too keep creeping to far forward on the seat it sounds more like a tilt issue than a fore/aft one to me. You could try tilting the saddle nose up a little bit.

Some people just naturally like to be more over the pedals than others though and that's fine.....you might be one of those people in which case if the sadde far forward works for you so be it.


----------



## wim

What heathb said.

Also keep in mind that you're sitting very upright right now, at least judging by the photo (the place where you put your hands during most of your riding appears to be level or even slightly above the saddle top). This does two things: it shifts most of your weight onto your butt and your perineum, and moves the shoulders back from the handlebar. Moving the saddle all the way forward is a way to deal with this—and since it seems to work for you, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

*For the future*, consider that lowering the bars will balance your weight better, and will move your shoulders slightly forward. As a result, your rear end will be more comfortable, and you might not have to push the saddle all the way forward to comfortably reach the bars. The short of it is to *eventually* get used to a more aerodynamic racing-type position, not ride a racing-type bike set up to be more of a "comfort" cruiser.


----------



## Wookiebiker

Your seat position is fine as long as you are comfortable.

I have a similar problem as you in that I have short legs (and femurs) and a long torso. I've gone the custom route when it comes to frames due to this and have them built up with a 74 degree seat tube angle and 57cm Top Tubes...which gives me proper saddle position with plenty of room for my upper body.

To answer your basic question though...as long as the saddle rails have enough room on them you can use them. It may look a bit "Dorky" but if you are comfortable...who cares?


----------



## Slow Ride

It took me about two full years of riding to find my ideal fit, through trial and error. I did have a professional fitting after the first year, and it was worth it if only for getting my saddle height correct. But was also valuable to check that my pedaling technique and general alignment was good. 

Over time I purchased and tested approx. half dozen stems of various lengths and angles to get reach/height. A couple of handlebar changes also affected which stem worked best. I recommend owning several stems yourself to give various positions a try, because that will even affect where your saddle ends up. 

Carry wrenches on solo rides and make changes as you go, and keep good mental notes. 

I found the Specialized brand comp stems are pretty good for testing because the angles can be changed with inserts. 

Also, drop a plumb line from a reference point on the seat rail (I use the center of the rail) and place pieces of black tape on the chain stay of the various fore-aft positions. Learn those tape positions relative to the distance from the center of bottom bracket. Once you know the distance you can apply it to other bikes later. I know the center of my rail is 22.5 cm from center of BB, and it seems to transfer just fine to any of my street bikes. 

Also note your saddle height from center of bottom bracket to top center of the saddle for each fore-aft position. You'll want to maintain a consistent saddle height relative to the bottom bracket.


----------



## danl1

There's a possibility that in your experiments in moving farther back, you didn't get far enough back. 

With a good amount of setback, the effort of pedaling will push/lift you back onto the wide part of the saddle, relieving the pressure that comes from sitting on the nose. Note though, that you can't simply slide the saddle backwards, because that effectively moves it away from the bottom bracket, and having a too-high saddle relative to your leg length / flexibility will again pull you forward (and possibly contribute to some of the leg discomfort you've described, though not necessarily.) So, the saddle has to move down a bit as it moves back. 

It's not a universal solution, and I wouldn't venture to say it is so without seeing you riding, but if you are willing to experiment a bit, it's helped more than a few folks.


----------



## Camilo

Interestingly, sometimes moving the saddle back can make you more comfortable on the saddle. It can get you balanced better over the pedals making you sit on the saddle better, etc. But only you can decide where you like that.

Like someone else said, If you are pretty sure of the fore-aft, the first thing I would do if I were you is mess with the saddle tilt.

Put a level on it. Don't use your eyeballs, put a level on it. If you don't have one, go to home depot and just buy a small one for a few bucks. 

See where it is now. Is it exactly level? A "half bubble" tilted either nose down or nose up? A "full bubble" tilted? (hope that makes sense - it will if you're familiar with bubble levels).

Then, jIf it's at all tilted nose down from level, make it as close to perfectly level as possible. Ride it and see if that helps. If it's already level or if making it level doesn't quite do it, tilt it back (nose upward) a little bit at a time - like "1/2 bubble" worth, just make sure you're using the level so you know exactly what you're doing.

I was skeptical when I first started doing this, but it's amazing how a dead level or even a slightly nose up saddle can really improve comfort. It settles you back on the saddle, can relieve stress on arms, and actually can relieve perineum pressure because your sit bones are properly taking the weight.

Another thing has to do with posture. Stand up straight and think of the slight inward curve of your lower spine. Then, when you sit on the saddle and reach for the bars, think to duplicate this spine position. Not overly curved inwward or bent outward. Get your forward bending from the HIPS not the spine. This will change the position of your sit bones on the saddle too and (in my experience) settle the sit bones the way the saddle is designed for and could very well relieve the perineal pressure.

Finally, don't forget to regularly and often change your positon on the bars and stand up regularly. This is normal cycling and really helps comfort.

Good luck - don't put up with discomfort, keep working on making it comfortable. I have a very minimalist and inexpensive saddle (the E3 Form, non gel) and it is very comfortable for the riding I do (max 2 to 3 hours). I fidget a lot less than most of my friends and my butt, arms and shoulders feel great. I can't remember the last time I felt even a twinge of perineal pressure or numbness - certainly not since I began using this saddle 3-4 years ago and have adjusted it a tiny bit nose up from level.


----------



## Dereck

Hi Straz
First thing to remember - you're a cast of one. While there are 'standards' and conventions, they may not do a good deal on the comfort front for you. If you're lucky, they might, just to balance things up.

I restarted riding some nine years back, after a 29 year lay-off. Quitting cycling almost completely was the second dumbest thing I've ever done, but that's not the issue. Unfortunately, my aging brain had filed all the stuff I'd learned about my bike riding position issues as a teen and into my early 20s. 

Things like I didn't like my saddle too far aft of the BB and have a very high riding position for my inside seam measurement. As there was little real help available back then, unlike now, these took some wresting from the conventions of the day, but I forgot to write them down and file them when I packed up 

Your saddle - this can be an area of utter misery. When I re-started, I was fine on a 'solid' saddle with no cut-out for the guy bits to hang out over. That lasted maybe three years - now my bikes have Sella Italia 'Flyte' squabs with a big slot down the middle. While you can get lots of advice on saddle makes, the only truly 'bad' saddle is the one you're sitting on and making your life an utter misery.

Lots of good ideas above, but when you try then out, just try one adjustment at a time. If you hit the bike with every tool in your box and change everything at once, there's a good chance you'll make things collectively worse than better.

One good tip - if you can make the time, ride to check your position. Around your neighbourhood will do to get close, further out to refine things. That's much better than ruining a day's ride with your buddies because you put something where you wished you hadn't just before setting off.

Also, scoot over to Park Tools website and download their neat form for noting your riding position. Keep a running tally on what is what distance from what else. You will forget and thus cause yourself misery one day if you don't keep notes. Guess how I know that?

To give you an idea of where you can end up - I'm 67-1/2" tall with a 30" inside seam. From the saddle top to the centre of the BB spindle is 29-3/8" on both, and I ride 172.5mm cranks. Both bikes have 54 cm seat tubes, the orange Bob Jackson is my custom built frame with a 54cm top tube and 110mm stem. It closely replicates a previous Bob Jackson I owned, that went much faster - possibly due to being ridden by some early 20-something with a slight rep as a sprinter  The shot is back when it was first built up, I have the bars much lower now. 

The blue Gunnar is my 'coffee bar runner', used when I go riding with my wife who has a far more 'civilised' view of cycling than I. Though a 54 ST, it has a longer top tube - 54.8 IIRC - with a 110mm stem placed somewhat higher than the BJ's. Both have the same Thomson seat post you use - if I used a set-back seat post, it would look goofy and not put the saddle in a very good place with regards to the seat clamps.

Both may look a little savage for a 61 year old, but are fine for me when it comes to comfort. To be honest about riding, after three hours on a bike, I get a little restless, after five I'd probably trade you the bike for a limo ride home and a six pack of cold beer - Newcastle Brown, for preference  Nothing's changed - I was like that when I raced as a 'kid'.

Good luck sorting your new ride out

D


----------



## Kontact

Our saddle studies were all about decreasing damaging pressure on the perineum. Forward saddles increase that pressure because your hips rotate forward. I think KOPS is a good preventative.


----------



## Straz85

Thanks for all the responses everyone, there's some great info here, I'm going read through it again, it was hard to take it all in the first time.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, as I mentioned in my OP, I just moved, the cable guy came Saturday, and well, it didn't quite work out, still no internet at home...ugh. 

To answer a couple questions, my saddle is level (checked with a bubble level). Regarding my handlebar height, I will try lowering them more, I already lowered them 5mm, I still have more space though (as you can see). 

Thanks again!


----------



## Trouble

First, I am not a fan of having some person statically fit me based on angles and plumbobs.
Secondly, I had a hard time following the post, but it sounds to me like you pretty much tossed out how you were fitted.
Start with height, fore-aft and then bar height and reach.
You should feel balanced when in the 3/9 position while coasting, equal pressure on hands, saddle, pedals.
Sit as far forward as possible (I've also gone to a straight seat post)-(helps with perineum issues) and have the bars as low and far out as comfortable.
I am a strong advocate of getting the bars low and getting your shoulders rounded out.
It seems counterintuitive, but you must try it before you dismiss it.


----------



## TheMCP

Straz85 said:


> I did my longest ride ever last weekend, 50 miles. I had numbness that took 6 days to totally go away, now the pain didn't come on as fast, but I'm still getting it, and I am still sitting forward on the seat.


I'm surprised nobody else brought this up... this sounds terrible. 6 days, ow. When you say "burning" do you mean like a muscle burn, or is the saddle chafing your thighs or something? If I read your post right, you are currently riding with the seat about 3cm forward from where it was when you were fit. It seems sort of counterintuitive, but moving the seat back can actually help the numbness / pressure (as I think someone else mentioned). When you rotate your hips forward, the sit bones actually get closer together than when you are sitting upright, which can make the saddle feel entirely different.

I would imagine that if you can post pics of yourself sitting on the bike, with the cranks at 12 / 6 and 9 / 3 o'clock, the more experienced guys on here will be able to give you more feedback (or just make everything more confusing haha).

Don't know about your shop, but the place I bought my saddle from is fine with me returning it and trading for another if I wind up not liking the one I have. Since it takes a while to figure out if the saddle isn't right or if it just needs adjustment, its a nice thing to be able to do.


----------



## Opus51569

There's nothing wrong with your saddle position if it works for you. I also have short femurs, so I have a 0 setback post on both my bikes. I have pretty short arms, too, so I run a shorter, angled, stem to help with reach. You mentioned that reach wasn't an issue, but if you're creeping forward as you ride, and adjusting saddle tilt doesn't help, take another look at your reach.

FWIW, I'm 5'9" and have a 56cm Speedster S30


----------

