# lightweight hubs - best bang for the buck



## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

I am building a new set of lightweight wheels for a sportif through the mountains ( https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/general/great-rides/42359/ ) I will be using Kinlin XR-200 28 hole rims, and was wondering which hubs to get. I am wary of the cheaper ultra lightweight stuff available on ebay, and was tending towards the Novatec A291SB/F582SB-SL combination.

What other options are there for a reasonably priced, reasonable quality, Campagnolo compatible lightweight hubset?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Bikehubstore.com


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

bikehubstore x 2


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

another vote for BHS.


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## wjabboud (Mar 5, 2013)

Yet another vote for BHS. Extra plug for the outstanding customer service in calculating spoke lengths. Well above and beyond expectations.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm sure this thread can stand one more plug for BHS.com - when "best bang for the buck" comes into hub decision, Brandon's hubs and his well-known dedication to fair play and service has got to come into it.


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## rlrj (Nov 17, 2005)

BHS no doubt, plus the honest help you get is free!


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## ZachUA (May 18, 2013)

so glad I saw this thread. was very close to pullin trigger on a set of light bike wheels with novatec hubs. I'm going to just order the rims now and get a set of hubs/spokes from BHS. 

I don't know what I'd do if there weren't forums for my hobbies.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

For some beautiful American made hubs you can't bead the White Industries T11 hubs. They also have a Titanium freehub that won't get notched like the alloy freehub of other lightweight hubs.
Weight: 348g 97g front/251g rear
Price per set: $454

The Tune German made hubs are also hard to beat for weight, price, and quality:
Weight per set: 240g 70g front/170g rear
Price per set: $600


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Suggest BHS SLF85W and SL210 hubs. 85/210 gm and $50/$75 respectively. They have some a few gm lighter, but IMO not worth the tradeoff in robustness.


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks all.

I took the hint and placed the order with Brandon this morning. According to the DT Swiss spoke calculator(Welcome), using DT Revolution spokes and aluminium nipples, my wheels should come in at about 1355gms.


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

mtbpete said:


> For some beautiful American made hubs you can't bead the White Industries T11 hubs. They also have a Titanium freehub that won't get notched like the alloy freehub of other lightweight hubs.
> Weight: 348g 97g front/251g rear
> Price per set: $454
> 
> ...


If I was going to spend that much, I would go with 
Extralite UltraRear SLX 139g $424
Extralite UltraFront SL2 59g $176

But I dont think that really fits the criterion of 'best bang for the buck'


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

mrcreosote said:


> If I was going to spend that much, I would go with
> Extralite UltraRear SLX 139g $424
> Extralite UltraFront SL2 59g $176
> 
> But I dont think that really fits the criterion of 'best bang for the buck'


Perhaps best bling for the buck? IMO, there's no functional or performance advantage over the BHS (Bitex) hubs.


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## ZachUA (May 18, 2013)

do any of these hubs roll better than others? I saw a video on youtube of a guy rolling a powerway hub vs another and the powerway had noticeable drag on it.

vid in question: Removing a pawl from a powerway hub 50mm chinese carbon clincher to increase rolling performance - YouTube


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

looigi said:


> Suggest BHS SLF85W and SL210 hubs. 85/210 gm and $50/$75 respectively. They have some a few gm lighter, but IMO not worth the tradeoff in robustness.


the SLF85's and SL21X hubs are my go-to's when wheel building.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

ZachUA said:


> do any of these hubs roll better than others?


It mostly depends on the alignment and proper adjustment... it will vary. Good is usually around 1W for a pair of hubs, so it is small. The next indication is bearing ID (smaller is better) and aggressiveness of the seals, fill and thickness of grease, and how many bearings are turning on the axle when under load (fewer is better). Next would be bearing material. 

If the Alchemy hubs can be had, they are the best.


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

looigi said:


> Perhaps best bling for the buck? IMO, there's no functional or performance advantage over the BHS (Bitex) hubs.


But..but...but...97 grams!!!!!!!


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

charlox5 said:


> the SLF85's and SL21X hubs are my go-to's when wheel building.


Yep, that's what I ordered.


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## SBH1973 (Nov 21, 2002)

Thanks guys for the recommendations and kind words. My wife's homemade cookies are in the mail and, as promised, I'll be over to mow your lawns this spring.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

mrcreosote said:


> I will be using Kinlin XR-200 28 hole rims


I wanted to mention that if 28h is good for the rear wheel, then 24 is plenty for the front. And it would be a good idea to use heavier DS spokes on the rear wheel as well. 24f and 32r would probably be optimal unless you are a lightweight.


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

rruff said:


> I wanted to mention that if 28h is good for the rear wheel, then 24 is plenty for the front. And it would be a good idea to use heavier DS spokes on the rear wheel as well. 24f and 32r would probably be optimal unless you are a lightweight.


Does 72kg count as 'lightweight'? On the BHS website they suggest 28h is acceptable for someone in that weight range.

FWIW, I already have the rims (came as a pair), and the hubs shipped yesterday, so I am pretty much locked in to 28/28. I will take your advise re the stronger spokes on board in consultation with my wheel-building professional.

Cheers

Phil.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

mrcreosote said:


> Does 72kg count as 'lightweight'? On the BHS website they suggest 28h is acceptable for someone in that weight range.
> 
> FWIW, I already have the rims (came as a pair), and the hubs shipped yesterday, so I am pretty much locked in to 28/28. I will take your advise re the stronger spokes on board in consultation with my wheel-building professional.
> 
> ...


You don't need to worry.

I am 190# on average lately and run 20/28 combos with no problems at all.

And Lasers all around. Don't believe everything you hear on the internet. No one ever broke a spoke in the middle. Think about it.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mrcreosote said:


> Does 72kg count as 'lightweight'? On the BHS website they suggest 28h is acceptable for someone in that weight range.
> FWIW, I already have the rims (came as a pair), and the hubs shipped yesterday, so I am pretty much locked in to 28/28. I will take your advise re the stronger spokes on board in consultation with my wheel-building professional.


I just don't get this "heavier on the DS" spoke thing. Almost all spokes that we use are 2.0mm on the hub and nipple end. I'm 175lbs (80kg) and have a few sets of wheels (all 24/28) with CX-Rays on all four sides - which are just flattened Lasers. I can't detect any issues with my wheels due to Rays on the DS. There's no flex. There's no breakage. But that's just my findings. Others' findings may vary.

Over at MTBR.com one of the regular posters and wheelbuilders is a structural engineer (designs bridges with pre-stressed beams) and he's over 6' and over 200lbs. All his 29'er disc brake MTB wheels that he builds for himself and others have DT Revolution spokes on all 4 sides (same gauge as Sapim Laser) and he's never had an issue with them.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

bikerjulio said:


> You don't need to worry.
> 
> I am 190# on average lately and run 20/28 combos with no problems at all.
> 
> And Lasers all around. Don't believe everything you hear on the internet. No one ever broke a spoke in the middle. Think about it.


I broke a spoke in the middle. It was an easton ea 90. 20 spoke rear, 2x ds radial nds, sapim bladed spokes. One of the DS pulling spokes broke about a mile from home, made a heck of a noise, broke almost exactly at the middle. With only 5 pulling spokes it was bound to happen sometime. Surprisingly stiff wheel with such a low spoke count. Would never go below 24 spokes on any self-built rear wheel and would cross both sides.


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## bobonker (Feb 12, 2011)

SBH1973 said:


> Thanks guys for the recommendations and kind words. My wife's homemade cookies are in the mail and, as promised, I'll be over to mow your lawns this spring.


  :thumbsup:

Bob


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

SBH1973 said:


> Thanks guys for the recommendations and kind words. My wife's homemade cookies are in the mail and, as promised, I'll be over to mow your lawns this spring.


I'd settle for you shoveling my snow Brandon.


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## vivid (Jun 1, 2012)

Just wondering, but what real world differences would we see between a BHS hub and a well thought of hub like the CK R45 of Alchemy Orc-ul? Are we just looking at durability and resistance , IE how freely the wheel rotates? The difference in price is roughly $400. I know it's a subjective question, but are the more expensive hubs worth the cost?


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> I just don't get this "heavier on the DS" spoke thing.


It's not for strength, its for (lateral) stiffness.
The poor flange spacing on rear road hubs VS MTB hubs makes for a flexier wheel. How much of an issue that is for a rider depends on their riding style. Even though I'm 146 lbs I break spokes on flexy rear wheels because I climb a lot, stand often when climbing and rock the bike side to side more than most riders when I am standing. When the wheel flexes a lot the NDS spokes lose tension momentarily and eventually break at the elbows. Thicker spokes make for less flex. But you want the NDS spokes to stretch a lot for a given tension, so it takes more wheel flex to make them momemtarily go slack. So thinner spokes go there.


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## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

I found this link, which might be of some discussion: Budget hubs Vs premium hubs | Who's at the Wheel?

It looks that it says that the bearings are the only component of consideration, and there isn't much or any difference between them, especially if you are capable of replacing them. 

I'm not claiming I endorse that point of view, maybe someone with a lot of experience can weigh its merit.


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## Clipped_in (May 5, 2011)

I'm 6'-3" & 195# and I can put out some pretty good power. I live at the foot of the Wasatch Mountains and do a lot of climbing. This is my cycling playground May thru October:










I've put ~15k miles on a set of wheels with Sapim Lasers. They are plenty stiff laterally (10sp, wide flanges - good bracing angle), and I've never broken a spoke. I agree with Mike T.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

vivid said:


> Just wondering, but what real world differences would we see between a BHS hub and a well thought of hub like the CK R45 of Alchemy Orc-ul? Are we just looking at durability and resistance , IE how freely the wheel rotates? The difference in price is roughly $400. I know it's a subjective question, but are the more expensive hubs worth the cost?


I've taken Chris King hubs apart (and DuraAce, DT 240, White Industries and maybe a few others) plus some BHS and similar Asian-sourced hubs and I'd have to be off my rocker to make a claim that the Asian hubs are the same "quality" as the well-known high-end hubs. There is a major difference between the internals of a King to an Asian hub. But, as with most things, once past a certain point, it's all diminished returns. Is a King worth 4x a BHS? Will it last 4x longer? Is it even 0.04x faster? 

It's like comparing Shimano 105 bike parts with their Dura-Ace. If it was just dollars to service and performance value we'd go with 105 every time. But it's not always down to that is it? My recent personal wheels got built with Dura-Ace hubs and I've already proved that those wheels are no faster than my BWW Blackset Race with Asian hubs. But I didn't expect them to be. And extra speed potential was not the reason I chose them.

What I'll ask is this - are BHS hubs good *enough*? And only you can answer that.

As to your question "how freely the wheel rotates?" I'll say this - Chris King seals have the most drag of any hub I've ever known. But they still sell $Hit-loads of them.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

*Budget vs Premium Hubs*

Structural strength of the hub shell is important, and most high end hubs like CK, DuraAce or Record will have a strong body.
The article say the difference in weight is just a matter of taking more metal off with the CNC mill. There is a lot more to it than that: competent and safe design, choice of better and stronger (more expensive) alloys, tighter manufacturing tolerances, more frequent QC inspections.
IMO the thinner and weaker shells on superlight hubs may deform under load and bearing alignment would be affected. Low rolling resistance depends on accuracy of bearing alignment.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

I really don't get the fascination with hub weight. Because they are so small in diameter, they really don't count as "rotating weight" - they have very little, if any influence on the moment of inertia for the wheel. And for the the spokes, about 1/2 the length (near the hub), same deal.

The torque required to accelerate the wheel is directly (linearly) related to the wheels moment of inertia (MOI). And in calculating the MOI, the distance *squared* of the mass from the center is the key parameter in the calculation. 

So basically a wheels ability to accelerate quickly is almost 100% based on the nipple, rim, rim strip, tube, and tire weight. Maybe 1/2 the spoke weight comes into play. The hubs, close to zero - their weight counts as much as dead frame weight, or your body weight 
for angular acceleration of the wheel. Something to keep in mind when trying to decide on 70 or 85g front hub.


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## andy13 (Aug 22, 2008)

so many good opinions on the bhs hubs. I'm considering a build using their hubs and American Classic 2218 rims and revo's or lasers and alloy nips. 28/24 should be in the low 1300's for pretty reasonable price. I like the mildly wide AC rims at 22.3mm and very good tubeless interior rim profile. Any thoughts?
ps. I am 172lbs. and primarily ride Colorado mountains, not much flats. Not a racer.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

The 2218 are probably the most user friendly and lightest tubeless-ready rims available. Good choice. Note their inner width is 18mm, the same as other rims that are 24mm wide.


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## morgan1819 (Nov 22, 2005)

Yes, Revolutions are good spokes. I personally have never had a problem with them, or my CX-Rays. I'm 190. 

But, there is no reason for "not" going heavier on the drive side either. It may provide a bit more tolerance for someone operating at the outer limits of the norm ( ie - large power rider over 240 lbs, running discs, radial laced, etc).





Mike T. said:


> I just don't get this "heavier on the DS" spoke thing. Almost all spokes that we use are 2.0mm on the hub and nipple end. I'm 175lbs (80kg) and have a few sets of wheels (all 24/28) with CX-Rays on all four sides - which are just flattened Lasers. I can't detect any issues with my wheels due to Rays on the DS. There's no flex. There's no breakage. But that's just my findings. Others' findings may vary.
> 
> Over at MTBR.com one of the regular posters and wheelbuilders is a structural engineer (designs bridges with pre-stressed beams) and he's over 6' and over 200lbs. All his 29'er disc brake MTB wheels that he builds for himself and others have DT Revolution spokes on all 4 sides (same gauge as Sapim Laser) and he's never had an issue with them.


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## andy13 (Aug 22, 2008)

Thanks Pete.


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## cfoster (Dec 20, 2007)

Spoke breakage in the middle = either bad wire or spoke strike/damage. (ref to EA90).

Light weight Twn and CN hubs can frequently be spec'd with stellar bearings or crap bearings, (same hub shell), aluminum axles or steel axles, aluminum freehubs or steel freehubs.

After years of improvements in materials, designs, and processes, Twn and CN light weight hubs can be every bit as good as anyone else's. In all but a few cases, they are everyone else's hubs. The confusing part is that a 'top end' hub can be purchased with crappy bearings, so its hard for people to really know what's what. Bearing quality, BTW, is probably the #1 thing that you'll likely run into first, as an issue with perceived overall hub quality. Meaning a 'low end' CN or Twn hub with top end bearings can rival tons of other top end hubs with medicore bearings.

Light weight hubs are great, but their impact with regards to riding 'feel' is at the very bottom of the list, probably below the impact a full water bottle makes as compared to a half full water bottle. Not saying you shouldn't buy them when presented the opportunity, but spending tons of $$$ to lighten up your wheels/bike by shaving hub weight is a great pursuit when all other options to lighten up your bike have been exhausted.

I love light weight stuff, hubs, rims, spokes, anything. Because I understand the impact and value of these things doesn't mean I make rational decisions with regards to component purchases. But I've also ridden a bunch of different road wheels, and my experience in a nutshell is that from one to the next, my riding ability is constant. My riding skill doesn't increase or decrease with any one wheel set, but my confidence on the bike may, and that may have a positive overall affect. But to that end, tire spec makes an even bigger impact, with regards to confidence/speed in corners/wet, etc..

I love the feel of thin wire spokes, higher spoke count 3x wheels, with light weight rims, the hubs aren't much of a factor in riding 'feel'. Tire selection has a big impact. Saddle, tape, frame/bar material can have huge impacts. Shoe stiffness can have a big impact. Cross/head winds can have a huge impact. Hubs... you only really notice when they don't work.


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## andy13 (Aug 22, 2008)

Another question: are the SL210 hubs 48poe (7.5 degree engagement)?
thanks,
andy


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## cfoster (Dec 20, 2007)

andy13 said:


> Another question: are the SL210 hubs 48poe (7.5 degree engagement)?
> thanks,
> andy


My guess is 24 POE, but they're not my hubs, don't quote me. Brandon would know. 

A little unrelated, but I love it when marketing jargon creates a POE count by multiplying POE x Pawl count, the resulting POE is usually something like 144 or 180. But I came across an Advert last year for a hub that had a 6x2 pawl design, plus 30 POE, and the claim was 360 POE FTW!!!


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

The POE can be confusing. I prefer to use degrees, for degrees between engagement. If a hub maker is multiplying by pawls it's usually because they have two sets of pawls that alternate engagement. So if you have a ratchet ring with 24 teeth and 4 equal spaced pawls the engagement will be 24 point or 360/24 - 15 degrees. But if 2 of the 4 pawls are clocked one half a tooth apart then only two pawls will engage for every 1/2 tooth rotation so although you have 24 points the pawls engage 48 times around or 7.5 degrees. Several hub makers have adopted this approach because the alternative is to make a ratchet ring with 48 teeth that have less depth and therefore greater chance of slipping.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Personally, I don't find the number of the degrees between engagement makes any difference to my riding, especially on a road bike. Of course the degrees between engagement points at the crank equal to the freehub degrees x cog teeth/ring teeth, so fewer than at the freehub. On the mtb, with very low gearing and frequent on/off pedaling, I start to notice it more, but still isn't really a factor in my riding.


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## andy13 (Aug 22, 2008)

I would agree that high "POE" hubs are not as noticeable/important for a road bike. I am asking about the BHS hubs only because I saw it mentioned in another post/thread. 
On my mtn. bike though, I love my I9 120 (3 degree) hub. I am probably going to use the BHS UL210 with 24 or 48 for my road wheel, it doesn't matter that much to me, just wondering. thanks.


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## FSonicSmith (Jan 2, 2003)

I have more than a dozen sets of wheels from Campagnolo, Bontrager, and custom made, and I agree that Brandon's hubs are a fantastic value. I have had problems with some very expensive hubs. Never Campy, but some others. 
That said, we have all these posts and no one has addressed the flange/spoke interface. Well designed hubs vary quite a bit in terms of the design and it is as important as the bearings for long term happiness, IMHO. As one easy example, my trusted wheelbuilder insists that once a hub is laced and trued with a certain pattern, it is inviting hub flange failure to lace the same set of hubs with a new pattern-such are the forces on the flange.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

FSonicSmith said:


> it is inviting hub flange failure to lace the same set of hubs with a new pattern-such are the forces on the flange.


I don't think it's necessarily inviting hub flange failure as much as its just going to make seating and stress relieving the spokes a bit more difficult, seeing as those j-bends will have a tendency to want to slip into the grooves of the old lacing pattern.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

I have ~2K miles on a set of Novatec 291/482s with no problems. These have been around for a while, are relatively cheap, are very light and very durable.


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## andy13 (Aug 22, 2008)

Got my BHS hubs and the rear (UL210) is 48 'clicks' or 7.5 degrees engagement.


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