# Foil: HMF vs HMX stiffness



## moose82

I am planning on replacing my trusty CAAD9 this fall/winter and am starting to put together a list of viable bikes to start test riding. The Foil has caught my attention, big time. 

A guy I know said not to bother with the HMF: he has an HMF CR-1 and it is not very stiff. I was under the impression the HMF had the same stiffness as the HMX, but it required a bit more CF, adding ~100g to the weight. Can anybody comment on that? I prefer a stiff frame. This is a bike I plan to ride for several years and don't want to be disappointed with it.

The 2014 Foil 10, with full Ultegra build is right in the sweet spot, budget wise, and would allow room, financially, for an upgraded wheelset and bars. Looking at HMX bikes, even framesets only, is a pretty big gap in price. Even the older 2012-2013 team frames are $2200-2500. 

If the general consensus is go big or go home, that might take the Foil out of the equation. I'm still planning on test riding the Foil to see how the HMF feels. It might be perfectly adequate for me.

On another note, does anybody know if there will be any Foils with Sram Red or Force for 2015? I prefer Sram, but could certainly deal with Ultegra for a year or two if that's how it worked out.

Thanks all


----------



## Wookiebiker

I have a 2013 Foil 40 and find it to be plenty stiff out of the saddle, but with more than acceptable comfort while in the saddle. I'm 180 pounds currently, have a pretty good sprint and a very good FTP.

If you want a "Stiff" bike ... go with the HMX, as I've heard it's stiffer ... however, the lower end HMF will likely be stiff enough for the vast majority of riders.

BTW ... I love my foil, it's the best bike/frame I've ever owned.


----------



## moose82

Thanks Wookie. Glad to hear you are enjoying the Foil. You sort of summed up how I think it will feel: plenty stiff, even if the HMX is a bit stiffer.

Definitely planning on riding them in a few weeks, when my weekends free up a bit. I'm hoping to ride it back to back with the Supersix Evo These are the current front runners.
Thanks again.


----------



## Wookiebiker

moose82 said:


> Thanks Wookie. Glad to hear you are enjoying the Foil. You sort of summed up how I think it will feel: plenty stiff, even if the HMX is a bit stiffer.
> 
> Definitely planning on riding them in a few weeks, when my weekends free up a bit. I'm hoping to ride it back to back with the Supersix Evo These are the current front runners.
> Thanks again.


No problem...

I made the switch from a CAAD 10 ... I found the rear end of the Foil to ride better than the CAAD 10, but the front end of the Foil stiffer with an overall feel much more balanced front to back on the Foil. I know a lot of guys on my team that have dropped their Evo in favor of a CAAD 10 due to little overall difference in feel between the two and the much cheaper price of the CAAD 10.

The other reason they dropped their Evo ... very small wheel/tire clearance! They couldn't run 25c tires and had such minimal clearance with newer wider wheels they would get chainstay rub. With the CAAD 10, they had much, much more room. On my Foil I'm running Boyd 44mm carbon clinchers which are 24mm wide (with 23c tires) and have plenty of room for wider wheels and tires.

Just some extra thoughts and things to pay attention to.


----------



## moose82

Thanks. Tire clearance is a big deal for me: I run 25mm almost exclusively. I'm currently running Boyd Vitesse with 25mm tires and have plenty of room. That's really good to know on the Evo. I'm looking at the Dura-Ace C35s for an eventual purchase. 

I'll be taking the CAAD10 for a spin: I've really enjoyed both my 9s. Sort of surprising about the difference in tire clearance between the EVO and CAAD10. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## wheeliedave

Having ridden both, HMX & HMF, I think if one could test them without knowing which is which. Nobody could tell the difference. I own an HMX and have many rides on an HMF. I can not tell the difference. My wheels are Dura Ace carbon tubulars with 25 Continental Competitions, Profile Design 24 with GP4000 700x25c, Dura Ace tubeless with 25 Hutchinson Fusions. All of these have plenty of room, Never had any rub on frame or fork. If you want a race bicycle the Foil is one. Addicts ride much plusher on those long days on rough roads.


----------



## moose82

Thanks Dave. Glad to hear that opinion from an HMX owner. I think the guy I know was basically saying if he were to get a new frame, he'd only consider the top of the line frame. Hopefully I can test ride the foil in the next few weeks. I would love to be able to snag a closeout deal on the '14s.


----------



## wheeliedave

Not many 2014 Foils left at Scott, frames or completes.


----------



## Maglore

The HMF and HMX frames are supposed to ride the same. The only difference is in the weight.

My Team Issue Foil (HMX) feels super stiff and solid under power. It's ride is pretty direct, but not as bone jarring as the press reviews make out.


----------



## moose82

Maglore said:


> The HMF and HMX frames are supposed to ride the same. The only difference is in the weight.
> 
> My Team Issue Foil (HMX) feels super stiff and solid under power. It's ride is pretty direct, but not as bone jarring as the press reviews make out.


Thanks, Maglore. I actually swung by a local shop yesterday, which carries both Scott and C'dale. Unfortunately for me, it's a really weird time of year to be bike shopping: the selection was really limited. He's going to let me know when he gets some Foils, Addicts, and Evos to test ride.


----------



## TricrossRich

I had the pleasure of riding a Scott Addict 20 (HMF, I beleive) with Ultegra groupset while on vacation in Maui and I found the frame to plenty stiff and still comfortable/enjoyable...

keep in mind, I'm currently on a A1 Aluminum frame from Specialized.. so basically anything is gonna feel stiffer.


----------



## moose82

Thanks Rich. That is the exact bike the LBS ordered for me to test ride. They wanted to order the correct size. I need to call them to get an idea when it'll be in, as the weather could turn any time now. Glad to hear you liked it and found it stiff. I'm coming from an old aluminum Cannondale, so I'm guessing I will have a similar view as yours.


----------



## TricrossRich

moose82 said:


> Thanks Rich. That is the exact bike the LBS ordered for me to test ride. They wanted to order the correct size. I need to call them to get an idea when it'll be in, as the weather could turn any time now. Glad to hear you liked it and found it stiff. I'm coming from an old aluminum Cannondale, so I'm guessing I will have a similar view as yours.


Moose... all in all it was a great bike. The only complaint I had was the brakes. I had no feel/trust in them. I see that the 2015 bikes on the website are listed as Ultegra brakes and I'm fairly certain the bike i rode did NOT have Ultegra brakes... I don't know if that's something that has changed this year or if the bike shop that rented the bike put no name brakes on... but they were horrible. It felt like i had to squeeze incredibly hard to get any pressure sort of stopping ability. Some of my friends suggested that I was just used to my disc brakes (I'm on a tricross elite disc) but I've ridden bikes with 105, ultegra and dura-ace rim brakes and they all stopped pretty comparably to my disc brakes in dry conditions.


----------



## TricrossRich

TricrossRich said:


> Moose... all in all it was a great bike. The only complaint I had was the brakes. I had no feel/trust in them. I see that the 2015 bikes on the website are listed as Ultegra brakes and I'm fairly certain the bike i rode did NOT have Ultegra brakes... I don't know if that's something that has changed this year or if the bike shop that rented the bike put no name brakes on... but they were horrible. It felt like i had to squeeze incredibly hard to get any pressure sort of stopping ability. Some of my friends suggested that I was just used to my disc brakes (I'm on a tricross elite disc) but I've ridden bikes with 105, ultegra and dura-ace rim brakes and they all stopped pretty comparably to my disc brakes in dry conditions.


I did some digging and I found the bike I rode in Scott's product archive... here it is and it doesn't have Ultegra brakes... in fact its a mix of Ultegra/105 groupset with soe lower end Shimano brakes.

SCOTT Sports - SCOTT Addict 20 Bike


----------



## moose82

Yep, that's the 2014. The 15 is the exact same frame, excluding the paint scheme. Full Ultegra build, including brakes. A bike I had several years ago had Ultegra brakes and they were very good. I'm excited to compare it to my Force brakes.

This is the 15: 
SCOTT Sports - SCOTT Addict 20 Bike

Edit: I'm also really excited about the mid-compact chainrings. Should be a great size: I can run a smaller cassette for the bulk of my rides, but swap to a bigger cassette and rear deraileur for the really steep stuff


----------



## TricrossRich

moose82 said:


> Yep, that's the 2014. The 15 is the exact same frame, excluding the paint scheme. Full Ultegra build, including brakes. A bike I had several years ago had Ultegra brakes and they were very good. I'm excited to compare it to my Force brakes.
> 
> This is the 15:
> SCOTT Sports - SCOTT Addict 20 Bike
> 
> Edit: I'm also really excited about the mid-compact chainrings. Should be a great size: I can run a smaller cassette for the bulk of my rides, but swap to a bigger cassette and rear deraileur for the really steep stuff


Yes.. the 2015 Addict 20 looks like a great built with the full Ultegra. I run full Ultegra (6700) on my Tricross and its a great bang for the buck group. A good buddy of my has a 2013 Foil 30 with SRAM Rival and even that bike is fun to ride... Scott really makes a great frame.


----------

