# Stage 3: Wanze to Arenberg - 213K



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

Okay, let's get this outta the way. Congrats to Chavanel. Gutsy move that proves why early breaks make sense: sometimes they survive. Now, did it survie do to his riding or due to the catastrophe of the descent? It doesn't really matter. A frenchman won a stage and is in yellow, and it ain't even Bastille Day! 

We won't even bring up the end of Stage 2. Keep that discussion in the Stage 2 forum.

Let's instead chat about Stage 3. Leaving Belgium, the race will make its French 2010 debut, and anticipation has been running high since this stage was announced. 77km of roads will feature 13km of cobbles before termination at the door of the forest of Arenberg. Those following the Armstrong Contador feud are curious to see if there is indeed a difference in preparation. One rode the cobbles, another raced them. Will that matter?

For people more interested in the stage outcome, will the boy racer be able to keep up with the big boys, or will his bones be shaken from his horse? Will Cancellara make another break, only to be chased down this time because there is no Boonen for the chasers to worry about? Will Thor be able erase his misery from two years ago, when victory was within his grasp before he cooked a corner and made the agony of defeat highlight reel?
Some tinfoil hat wearers just wanna know if FC will have the brass ones to hide motors in his bottom bracket. Again.

I'm goin with Thor, the god of thunder! It will be a sweet victory, but not as tasty as finishing first on the velodrome...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

If it comes down to a bunch sprint, Thor.

Although, there are plenty of people who could really put the hurt on this stage. Flecha, Sparticus, maybe even Maaskant.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Indeed, chapeau Chavenl!*

Ten years on, he's not the impetuous rider of his youth and since moving the QS has produced some solid results.

For today, I'm liking Saxo's chances with Cancellera, O'Grady and Voight possibilities for motoring off the front towards the end. Of course, they will need to make sure that the Schlecks get through the pave section whereas Jez Hunt and Thor have some more indepence in their movements. Chavenel rides well on the pave but now with the Yellow, will probably not contest the finish.

My pick today is the man from Brekel, Robbie Mac. He rides the cobbles well and the stage is shorter than PR. It would be a great win for him.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Going with the guy who has the least to lose by going all out and stands the best chance at a win: Flecha.

Cancellara will be too busy watching over the Schlecks. Thor, maybe, but he has more long term sprint finishes to come in the week so saving energy may be the best ticket.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

RM went down pretty hard today and he is old. I am liking Thor.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I think Flecha is a good pic too. Cancellara could certainly do well but I agree he will be busy making sure the Schlecks make it through the stage in good shape.

There has been talk of another rider neutralized stage but since LA assuredly sees this as a chance to put some serious time into his climber competitors I don't see any way R.Shack is going to take it easy on the stage.


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## rollinrob (Dec 8, 2002)

Looks like a perfect stage for Hincapie to shine..


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

Maybe Marcus Burghardt today after trying yesterday he might try another break today.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i like the flecha picks.

hincapie? maybe. but if he won this stage it would be like kissing a cousin for him.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

After the last two days of carnage and weirdness, and cobbles on the horizon, all bets are off.

I don't have a clue.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Cancellara. He wanted to lose the yellow jersey today because they didn't have a yellow Roubaix frame for tomorrow. He wins stage 3 by a big amount, back in yellow, back on his yellow Tarmac for stage 4!


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## Haridic (Jun 9, 2008)

Given the cobbles i very much doubt we'll be seeing much of a sprint concerning lead out trains, i'll be surprised if the team mates even remain together at the end. Given that 50% of this field hasn't even ridden cobblestones I'm predicting top GC riders + several hardmen (like Thor, McEwen, Cancellera et al) will be in the advance group by the end of this shenanigans. Hell even Armstrong predicted a week ago in his twitter-thing that it's going to be carnage.

My vote's on Thor but like OldEndicottHiway said, all bets are off and i really don't have a clue.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

After the comments at the end of Stage 2, I am just afraid they won't race because _it's too scary!_ Hinault and Merckx must want to puke. [note: That was written before I knew about oil on the road....]

Yeah, yeah, I know: no comments about Stage 2.

OK, then I will pick *Alexander Vinokourov*, who brings in the front group of seven riders after a serious pavé split in the main peloton, leaving Alberto Contador struggling once again to regain the leadership of a team that has promised to support him.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*true dat*



Italophile said:


> After the comments at the end of Stage 2, I am just afraid they won't race because _it's too scary!_
> 
> Hinault and Merckx must want to puke.


I hope it frigging rains tomorrow
what classics guy complains about wet stones
I hope some of the flahutes have their frigging day at the expense of the GC wannabes

My ideal TdF would have as many hard days on the stones as high mountain climbs

Merckx Ronde 1969 and Hinault L-B-L 1980, all one needs to know about real bike racing


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Thor is one of the few guys not hurting from Stage 2. Cancellara.proved today that he is going to look after Frank and Andy. I'm going with Thor.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

another vote for the god of thunder!

maybe boasson hagen?

Chad


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I think Cancellara is going to have to tend to the Schleck Bros. The same for Hincapie. He's going to have to look after Cadel. I was thinking Flecha, but I think Thor has extra incentive to win this one.

Thor for the win.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

atpjunkie said:


> I hope it frigging rains tomorrow
> what classics guy complains about wet stones
> I hope some of the flahutes have their frigging day at the expense of the GC wannabes
> 
> ...


Hell Yeah.


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## LWP (Jun 6, 2006)

I have no idea who's going to take the stage but Farrar deciding to gut the cobbles on a cracked wrist gets my vote for the HTFU trophy.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*2nd fall. only gerrans.*

2nd fall. only gerrans.

the tight streets with curbs are giving ppl a hard time.

this year is so jumbled, no one wants to take it easy in these first few days.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Contador in a 3 minute solo. You saw it here first.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

PJay said:


> this year is so jumbled, no one wants to take it easy in these first few days.


same procedure as every year.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*some yrs, first week is a snoozer*

some yrs, all of us armchair TdF riders are complaining about how boring the early stages are. This year, I am getting my money's worth out of the first week.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*radio shack bunnyhopping curb*

on the eurosport feed, it just looked like riders bunnyhopping up on the sidewalk and back into street to jockey for position. red uniforms - maybe the shack. the shack is really jockeying right now.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Armstrong holding Contadors wheel


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*cunego and a few others down,*

on the pave. looks like they were at the back of the peleton


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## LWP (Jun 6, 2006)

"The Italians don't seem to ride well in the Tour de France... maybe it's because there's no spaghetti once they get into France."

I know I wasn't the only one who heard it...


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

The whole "pairs" thing is making this really boring.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*final cobbles - F Schleck down!*

final cobbles - F Schleck down!

Eurosport calling: F schleck totally out of tour, hopoping in team car.

dang.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*i was wrong abt the cobbles 1 more stretch.*

wrong abt the cobbles 1 more stretch.

i cannot tell who is where. i think front pack is still 7, butit looks like cancellara and a few others are riding off the front of the peleton. this group includes a schleck and armstrong.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

PJay said:


> final cobbles - F Schleck down!
> 
> Eurosport calling: F schleck totally out of tour, hopoping in team car.
> 
> dang.


Looked bad. Gutted for Franck


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*yes, a pack of abt 30 behind the breakaway.*

incl contador as well. evans, more favs.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*yahoo uk chat calling it 3 chase grps*

but it really looks like 1 string, on eurosport live feed, considering 10 miles remain.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*armstrong puncture on final cobbles!*

armstrong puncture on final cobbles!
i think.
he had been abt 30 sec ahead of contador. he has a wingman with him but i cannot tell who it is.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*chavanel puncture!*

chavanel puncture!


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*chavanel swapped bikes and is running, but no wingman*

chavanel swapped bikes and is running, but no wingman


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Go Ryder!

I'd really like to see him keep a gap today.

Edited to add that I like that Cadel made the group with Cancellara and A. Schleck.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

PJay said:


> armstrong puncture on final cobbles!
> i think.
> he had been abt 30 sec ahead of contador. he has a wingman with him but i cannot tell who it is.


Popo's pacing him.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*roelandts just hit barrier - but back up*

roelandts just hit barrier - but back up

soft poster barrier not a wall or anything.

man, this is like kids ice skating.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*hesjedal in front, in big ring*

hesjedal in front, in big ring

at the 20k remaining markm, just jumped into some cobble stone, cranking a big ring.

that is an optimist for ya.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*lance just dropped popo to catch contador's grp*

lance just dropped popo to catch contador's grp

about 1 minute ahead of him

lance looks tough


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

yellow puncture again, not much of a day for sylvan


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

culdeus said:


> The whole "pairs" thing is making this really boring.


oops!


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

Vino drops Contador. Ha! And nobody is surprised. 

EDIT: They think AC had a puncture now. Still, wouldn't be surprised.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I have lost all respect*

for Thor Hushovd
Thor you were the fastest guy in the bunch yet you still refused to take a pull

lame


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Looks like Vino rode Contador off the back of the pack in the last kilometer, caused him to lose ~15 seconds or so... So much for him working for Contador.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Man, another day of carnage for the TdF... certainly the most interesting first few days of racing I've seen in a tour in a while.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> for Thor Hushovd
> Thor you were the fastest guy in the bunch yet you still refused to take a pull
> 
> lame


aww come on, you know better. he's chasing the green jersey, does not care about GC and with FC and AS and CE there, he had no reason to work.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

gegarrenton said:


> Vino drops Contador. Ha! And nobody is surprised.
> 
> EDIT: They think AC had a puncture now. Still, wouldn't be surprised.


you could see the flat ring. you think vino could take 20 seconds on 1km?


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

thor did take one small pull, but he and thomas may have been able to pull more, but what where there team managers saying in their ears with sastre and wiggens the the groups behind.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

ok, who would have predicted that Andy Shleck and Alberto Contador would take time out of LA in today's stage?


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

aengbretson said:


> Looks like Vino rode Contador off the back of the pack in the last kilometer, caused him to lose ~15 seconds or so... So much for him working for Contador.


I'm pretty sure there's a bit of poetic justice in there somewhere


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


> ok, who would have predicted that Andy Shleck and Alberto Contador would take time out of LA in today's stage?


I'm not sure I would've predicted anything, given the perils of the stage and how tweeked everyone seemed to be going into today.

Well, I would've predicted Vino gapping his team leader, if given a chance.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> ok, who would have predicted that Andy Shleck and Alberto Contador would take time out of LA in today's stage?


he flatted


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> ok, who would have predicted that Andy Shleck and Alberto Contador would take time out of LA in today's stage?


Don't forget Cadel. He picked up valuable time on all the GC contenders except A Schleck.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

PJay said:


> lance just dropped popo to catch contador's grp
> 
> about 1 minute ahead of him
> 
> lance looks tough


Lance lost time to his rivals and burned a ton of energy today. Very bad day for him.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> for Thor Hushovd
> Thor you were the fastest guy in the bunch yet you still refused to take a pull
> 
> lame


I really don't think Thor owed Saxo Bank any help here, after yesterday.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

They said there would be carnage. It looks like they were right. Frank may have got the worst of it.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*how many times*



Creakyknees said:


> aww come on, you know better. he's chasing the green jersey, does not care about GC and with FC and AS and CE there, he had no reason to work.


was he sitting on FCs wheel and ignoring the flick of the elbow?

he could have taken cursory pulls and still had enough to take the stage

so he flexes and pumps over the finish line
"Yeah mighty Thor God of Wheelsucking"

I'm mostly bothered with his display


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

...or sweet revenge since al the others refused to sprint yesterday! ;-)


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> was he sitting on FCs wheel and ignoring the flick of the elbow?
> 
> he could have taken cursory pulls and still had enough to take the stage
> 
> ...


He's making up for the points he didn't get yesterday. Plus he probably knew he would be taking green.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Eurosport asked him about FC dragging him to his win. He did not have much of a comment about that.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> was he sitting on FCs wheel and ignoring the flick of the elbow?
> 
> he could have taken cursory pulls and still had enough to take the stage
> 
> ...


Its a race, not a club ride. And even in club rides, sometimes when things go hairy for whatever reason, ettiqutte goes out of the window and you do what you have to do.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*thor wanted the stage*



harlond said:


> I really don't think Thor owed Saxo Bank any help here, after yesterday.


and the green jersey pts
he should have helped more to catch Ryder. He should have helped more to keep the group away.

every non sprinter that finishes ahead is less points for his competition


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

General classification after stage 3

1 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank 14:54:00
2 Geraint Thomas (GBr) Sky Professional Cycling Team 0:00:23
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:00:39
4 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Transitions 0:00:46
5 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Quick Step 0:01:01
6 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:01:09
7 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Cervelo Test Team 0:01:19
8 Alexander Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana 0:01:31
9 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 0:01:40
10 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:01:42


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## UGASkiDawg (Jun 23, 2008)

jorgy said:


> Don't forget Cadel. He picked up valuable time on all the GC contenders except A Schleck.


And he'll get dropped like a bad habit in the Mtns by Schleck, contador, armstrong, wiggins.....Cadel is NO threat to win this tour.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> was he sitting on FCs wheel and ignoring the flick of the elbow?
> 
> he could have taken cursory pulls and still had enough to take the stage
> 
> ...


yeah, it is bad form to screw up the line if you're sitting on.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Thor not pulling is just tactics. FC needed time so he took advantage of that. Happens all the time.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Thor into Green


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> for Thor Hushovd
> Thor you were the fastest guy in the bunch yet you still refused to take a pull
> 
> lame


He was in a group withe two GC contenders while Sastre was in a group behind did you really think he would work and help them put time into his teammate - had he worked you could have said you didn't respect him as it was he did exactly what he was suppose to do, not help and win. Thomas has the same duty but was not as fast.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Frank Schleck taken to hospital with a suspected broken collarbone


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> was he sitting on FCs wheel and ignoring the flick of the elbow?
> 
> *he could have taken cursory pulls and still had enough to take the stage*
> 
> ...


Hushovd could have helped take pulls. 

Cancellera could have let them sprint yesterday.

Plus there is the point about Sastre.

Funny how that works.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

So now Astana has two cards, radioshack is pretty much out of it, saxo bank is down to one card. 
Despite loosing a minute that was almost perfect for Contador.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*hell in my club rides*



RkFast said:


> Its a race, not a club ride. And even in club rides, sometimes when things go hairy for whatever reason, ettiqutte goes out of the window and you do what you have to do.


if you suck wheel all day and then go for the sprint you are heckled endlessly
each guy who was working up front will first typically ask for a paycheck cause clearly the guy thinks he's Mark Cavendish. 
"Last I checked, no one here is paid to pull you to victory"

and the calls of "Covarde!"


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*if Sastre*



32and3cross said:


> He was in a group withe two GC contenders while Sastre was in a group behind did you really think he would work and help them put time into his teammate - had he worked you could have said you didn't respect him as it was he did exactly what he was suppose to do, not help and win. Thomas has the same duty but was not as fast.


was behind, then I understand, but if Sastre's group caught up, then it diminishes his chances


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

den bakker said:


> So now Astana has two cards, radioshack is pretty much out of it, saxo bank is down to one card.
> Despite loosing a minute that was almost perfect for Contador.


Does Vino count as a full card or half? He's a bit nuts.
Don't think RS is out of it at all, lots of stages and hills left.
Saxo is hurting

Great ride by Cadel, cool to see.

I like Thor's antics today to make up for yesterdays antics by Saxo.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

I wouldn't say RS is out of it but at 50 seconds down (Armstrong vs. Contador), it is an uphill struggle for them. Contador's flat cost him 9 seconds and that might have improved the buffer a bit. 

When it's all over, I can see Andy dedicating his Tour GC victory to his fallen sibling .... ;-)

Also, when I saw Armstrong slipping down into the "flint lane" (which is what we call the flat dried mud pans on either side of the cobbles), I said to myself "he's going to flat"... and 10 seconds later he did. That was a mistake on his part but he wasn't the only one making it today! Contador, on the other hand, and Andy, for that matter, had a stellar day on the cobbles!


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## fab4 (Jan 8, 2003)

Bad luck for Lance Armstrong today. Untimely flat. Cancellara and all the big guys like Andy Shleck, Contador, Evans, & Vino sure didn't wait like stage 2 yesterday. It will be hard for Lance to win now but it's still not over.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

godot said:


> Does Vino count as a full card or half? He's a bit nuts.
> Don't think RS is out of it at all, lots of stages and hills left.
> Saxo is hurting
> 
> ...


It does not matter if vino is racing against Contador, the other teams still cannot let him go. 
If I remember the last few months on RBR correctly this was predicted to be the stage where the shat would put the hammer down and make contador suffer.


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## neilg1 (Sep 23, 2009)

Well done, Thor. Well deserved after a great run yesterday. 
Eat **** Lance.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

philippec said:


> Contador, on the other hane, and Andy, for that matter, had a stellar day on the cobbles!


Blasphemy. Everyone knows Contador can't handle the cobbles and has no team for support.

I suggest you watch the replay and reconsider your statement.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

den bakker said:


> It does not matter if vino is racing against Contador, the other teams still cannot let him go.
> If I remember the last few months on RBR correctly this was predicted to be the stage where the shat would put the hammer down and make contador suffer.


You do remember correctly. Contador and Schleck rode the cobbles better than Armstrong on this day.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

den bakker said:


> this was predicted to be the stage where the shat would put the hammer down and make contador suffer.


Yes, but it seems that Contador learned quite a bit from his personal cobbles coach -- PVP!

;-)

Nice to see the climbers exceed expectations (Contador and Andy Schleck!)


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> You do remember correctly. Contador and Schleck rode the cobbles better than Armstrong on this day.


And which day matters?


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

I am surprised that with 17 stages remaining and 3.5 minutes separating the leader from #57 that anyone can be proclaimed "Out of it."


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Today!!!!!


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

you people are funny


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Cadel in 3erd @ 39''
Andy 6th @ 1'09''
Conti 9th @ 1'40''
LA 18th @ 2'30''


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*understood*



Maximus_XXIV said:


> Thor not pulling is just tactics. FC needed time so he took advantage of that. Happens all the time.


but look at what he was facing
Fabian - pulling all day no legs left
Andy - not known as a monster sprinter
Cadel - see above
Ryder - in the break all day not much left in the tank
Thomas - not a big sprinter either

yet he felt he needed to save everything and not help

kinda kills the whole God of Thunder schtick


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Sastre was*



atpjunkie said:


> was behind, then I understand, but if Sastre's group caught up, then it diminishes his chances


3 or 4 groups back 2:25 behind


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

JohnHemlock said:


> I am surprised that with 17 stages remaining and 3.5 minutes separating the leader from #57 that anyone can be proclaimed "Out of it."


I think it is more that LA burned through a lot of matches while AS had a free ride today. No one is out, just looking further from being a contender than before.


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## LWP (Jun 6, 2006)

neilg1 said:


> Eat **** Lance.


And there it is. I knew somebody would miss nap time, get cranky and throw one of those up sooner or later. I kinda hoped I was wrong... but it's not an "adults only" forum.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

den bakker said:


> It does not matter if vino is racing against Contador, the other teams still cannot let him go.
> If I remember the last few months on RBR correctly this was predicted to be the stage where the shat would put the hammer down and make contador suffer.


I agree with both points. My Vino comment was kind of a joke and wasn't meant to imply that Vino was riding against his own team. He's strong enough to be scary to the GC contenders and will be marked, he's also unstable enough to be scary to his own team. I like the insanity, it's good TV.

My prediction was that this stage would be much ado about nothing - I was wrong


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

philippec said:


> ...when I saw Armstrong slipping down into the "flint lane" (which is what we call the flat dried mud pans on either side of the cobbles), I said to myself "he's going to flat"... and 10 seconds later he did. ...


I never knew this... would've made the same mistake myself.... but then I've never raced cobbles and you'd think that LA would've picked up on that tip somewhere along the way.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

LWP said:


> And there it is. I knew somebody would miss nap time, get cranky and throw one of those up sooner or later. I kinda hoped I was wrong... but it's not an "adults only" forum.


He's relatively new, and he's shown himself to be an idiot. What can you do?

Sad that a puncture cost anyone so much time, or that Frank may be out with a busted clavicle. But that's what they predicted for today, isn't it...


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## CraigFavata9 (Mar 27, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> ok, who would have predicted that Andy Shleck and Alberto Contador would take time out of LA in today's stage?


Not these guys: 


mohair_chair said:


> Don't know, but Armstrong has shown that he is a great bike handler, he races MTB, and in 2004 he had two great cobble riders in Hincapie and Ekimov to marshal him through the pave. Can you say the same about Contador?





davidka said:


> Contador's biggest time loss risk are these stones. Among the real contenders he's the one with the biggest chance of getting gapped.





yo mamma said:


> Given his greater experience on these sorts of roads and his experience at mtb racing, I'll go out on a limb and say that LA will put 3 to 5 minutes, maybe more, into AC on the cobbled stage. Whether that will be enough to win the Tour is doubtful, but it should make things very interesting.


:frown2:


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

I'm sure he knows that but perhaps his hurt elbow was bothering him enough that he felt a few moments of respite from the cobbles was worth the risk -- and he would have been wrong! Just to be clear, he wasn't the only one making this mistake, but he is the one who paid most dearly for it!


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## rockstar2083 (Aug 30, 2005)

I would think one would have to burn some matches to stay on FC's wheel today. LA burned more but no way was that a free ride for AS


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm wondering why it took so long for LA to get a tire or bike change, he lost a lot of time waiting, and had to work real hard to get back what he did. He was :30 ahead of AC before the puncture... and now ends up :50 behind... gonna real tough now... sigh...


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> was behind, then I understand, but if Sastre's group caught up, then it diminishes his chances


Sastre was in a group that was chasing and every second of time could potentially count so Thor did what he was suppose to and did not work. Plus Im sure after that BS "lets wait for everyone" crap Canacallara pulled yesterday Im sure Thor was happy to let him and Andy work.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Kaleo said:


> I'm wondering why it took so long for LA to get a tire or bike change, he lost a lot of time waiting, and had to work real hard to get back what he did. He was :30 ahead of AC before the puncture... and now ends up :50 behind... gonna real tough now... sigh...


Paranoia about electric motors. Race organizers would not let people be stationed with extra bikes along the cobbles. Bikes could only be gotten from a team car or neutral support.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> I never knew this... would've made the same mistake myself.... but then I've never raced cobbles and you'd think that LA would've picked up on that tip somewhere along the way.


One of the problems of riding a short season! Can't remember the last time LA rode P-R, if at all. If he'd managed to bag PVP before Conti then he'd have known!:wink5:


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Just read about result on SteephillTV.com...

Excellent! Thor gets the stage win he should have gotten yesterday, Sparticus back in Yellow (feel a bit sorry for Chavanel, was so glad for him when he won yesterday's stage, but so it goes), Conti proves he can ride on bricks (and ends that stupid debate) as well, Andy moves up the standings and Cadel makes an appearance. 

Hope Lance can make up this loss of time. Still waiting for Vino to come out of his shell.
Bad news about Frank Schleck - that's a serious blow to Andy's chances.

Can't wait to watch this one tonight on VS!


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Agree on the time it took to change the flat...no way should he lose that much time.

Phillipe's comments about the increased probability of flatting out of the cobbles is news to me and points to a tactical error.......unusual for Armstrong 

LA's time deficit to sheck, & contador has to be concerning........looking at the remaining stages, where does it seem logical he has a chance to make up that much time? Certainly not in the mountains (barring a mechanical), so that leaves the TT's...........add that to the matches he had to burn today & it's hard to see a high probability of him making the podium. It's possible, but the odds just got worse for him.

Everyone wants to throw Vino under the bus, but a.) How certain is anyone that Vino knew of the flat & b.) who knows what if anything the DS told Vino.

IMO

Len


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

geez guys contador was 2:30 down and behind armstrong at one point and vino helped cut that gap significantly (with FC pushing at the front no less)... give the man some credit or atleast dont accuse him or riding for himself

what are cadels chances of making the podium now that he has a few minutes over the other gc guys?


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

tinkerbeast said:


> geez guys contador was 2:30 down and behind armstrong at one point and vino helped cut that gap significantly (with FC pushing at the front no less)... give the man some credit or atleast dont accuse him or riding for himself
> 
> what are cadels chances of making the podium now that he has a few minutes over the other gc guys?


Yeah I agree with that, he probably didn't know contador was dropped at the end. And Contador needed the help today after all hell broke loose, if Armstrong had not punctured, the situation would be different right now.(obviously pointing out the obvious ;p)


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Len J said:


> Agree on the time it took to change the flat...no way should he lose that much time.
> 
> Phillipe's comments about the increased probability of flatting out of the cobbles is news to me and points to a tactical error.......unusual for Armstrong
> 
> ...


How about going out on a limb and prediciting that Cadel Evans will wear yellow again, just maybe not all the way to Paris.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Len J said:


> Agree on the time it took to change the flat...no way should he lose that much time.
> 
> Phillipe's comments about the increased probability of flatting out of the cobbles is news to me and points to a tactical error.......unusual for Armstrong
> 
> ...



That's what I was wondering too, altho I'm not a huge Vino fan.

Not real thrilled w/ Thor's antics.

Contador has to be happy. Stayed level-headed. He's maturing as a rider it seems.

LA...ouch that hurts.  

All of us here in Wenatchee, Wa. USA is groaning over poor Farrar. :cryin: 


Geez those cobbles seriously look like fun to race on. For real.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

Len J said:


> Everyone wants to throw Vino under the bus, but a.) How certain is anyone that Vino knew of the flat & b.) who knows what if anything the DS told Vino.
> 
> IMO
> 
> Len



It's been a little while since I've done a UCI stage race but something like this happened to us once and the guy who flatted (also had another mech with it) was given the same time since it occurred at the end. If the rules are the same as they were then, I would think that Vino figured the harder he pushed, the better time Contador would get if he had a flat or mechanical in the last 3k. He might be a lot of things but he's no dummy.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> ...Geez those cobbles seriously look like fun to race on. For real.


this is how I know you're awesome.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

tinkerbeast said:


> geez guys *contador was 2:30 down and behind armstrong at one point* and vino helped cut that gap significantly (with FC pushing at the front no less)... give the man some credit or atleast dont accuse him or riding for himself
> 
> what are cadels chances of making the podium now that he has a few minutes over the other gc guys?



That's going to be the stuff of LA's nightmares tonight. I'm bummed. In this "race within a race" (LA and Cont) I would rather see one or the other beat one or the other without dumb things like crashes and mechanicals.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> That's going to be the stuff of LA's nightmares tonight. I'm bummed. In this "race within a race" (LA and Cont) I would rather see one or the other beat one or the other without dumb things like crashes and mechanicals.


If Phillipe is correct (& I suspect he is), then LA's flat was from a tactical error..........does that change your perspective?

len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

MG537 said:


> How about going out on a limb and prediciting that Cadel Evans will wear yellow again, just maybe not all the way to Paris.


Cadel has to prove he can stay with Contador & Andy S in the mountains before I'd say that. He has alwys fallen just enough short of the big guns in the mountains to make me skeptical.

Len


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## LWP (Jun 6, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


> this is how I know you're awesome.


...or maybe just slightly crazy?


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

Len J said:


> If Phillipe is correct (& I suspect he is), then LA's flat was from a tactical error..........does that change your perspective?
> 
> len


I haven't seen it. What did he do wrong?


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## snowman3 (Jul 20, 2002)

Len J said:


> If Phillipe is correct (& I suspect he is), then LA's flat was from a tactical error..........does that change your perspective?
> 
> len


Well, put. Sad to see a mechanical be the difference, but if it was due to risky behaviour then he rolled the dice and took his chances. All due respect to Phillipe, but I'm still 50-50- on whether it was tactical error or just bad luck... need to get some more info before deciding the likelihood of one vs another.


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## BuenosAires (Apr 3, 2004)

This thread is comical. Guys comparing a stage in the Tour de France to their local club ride and others giving a 7 time Tour winner advice on how to ride the cobbles.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

BuenosAires said:


> This thread is comical. Guys comparing a stage in the Tour de France to their local club ride and others giving a 7 time Tour winner advice on how to ride the cobbles.


Welcome to RBR, where I'm convinced that 90% of the posters are 12 years old, if not physically, then definitely mentally.


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## newfield (Apr 19, 2006)

If you watched the stage Ryder Hesjedal was in the gutter during the cobble sections almost the entire time and did quite well , but when Lance does it for a few seconds it's a tactical error resulting in a flat. Really?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Len J said:


> If Phillipe is correct (& I suspect he is), then LA's flat was from a tactical error..........does that change your perspective?
> 
> len


No. You extrapolated. But I can see it would be easy to do so. I should have clarified ",,,mechanicals, _due to rider error or otherwise_".


And *if *today was a tactical error on LA's part, oh gawld... after last year's "_oops I got dropped off the back_" fail by Contador... that has got to be one little smirking Spanish flea tonight! 

Round two to Contador.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

BuenosAires said:


> This thread is comical. Guys comparing a stage in the Tour de France to their local club ride and others giving a 7 time Tour winner advice on how to ride the cobbles.


teh Intertubes is serious bizness


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

BuenosAires said:


> This thread is comical. Guys comparing a stage in the Tour de France to their local club ride and others giving a 7 time Tour winner advice on how to ride the cobbles.


This thread was comical way before that!


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

philippec said:


> I'm sure he knows that but perhaps his hurt elbow was bothering him enough that he felt a few moments of respite from the cobbles was worth the risk -- and he would have been wrong! Just to be clear, he wasn't the only one making this mistake, but he is the one who paid most dearly for it!


It seems like most everyone wanting to ride fast was doing it. Hesjedal was doing it for miles to get a lead. Seems more like a risk/reward play - it's only an error if you flat.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Salsa_Lover said:


> teh Intertubes is serious bizness



'Tis the season for Tribbles.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

yater said:


> I haven't seen it. What did he do wrong?


Per Phillipe (someone who has ridden on cobbles) above:

"Also, when I saw Armstrong slipping down into the "flint lane" (which is what we call the flat dried mud pans on either side of the cobbles), I said to myself "he's going to flat"... and 10 seconds later he did. That was a mistake on his part but he wasn't the only one making it today! "

Len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

newfield said:


> If you watched the stage Ryder Hesjedal was in the gutter during the cobble sections almost the entire time and did quite well , but when Lance does it for a few seconds it's a tactical error resulting in a flat. Really?


It's only a tactical error if it fails.  

If I'm understanding the comment ........he took a risk and lost. Apparently, (& i've never ridden cobbles, so I'm going by what others have said), the risk of flatting goes up riding where LA did. People take all kinds of tactical risks in a 3 week race. some gain time and some lose time. It appears that this one lost time for him.

Most of LA's historical tactical choices in the TDF have been avoiding risk............to me, it's interesting that he took one that increased his risk (If what Phillipe says is true, which, based on his posting credibility, I tend to believe)

Len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> No. You extrapolated. But I can see it would be easy to do so. I should have clarified ",,,mechanicals, _due to rider error or otherwise_".
> 
> 
> And *if *today was a tactical error on LA's part, oh gawld... after last year's "_oops I got dropped off the back_" fail by Contador... that has got to be one little smirking Spanish flea tonight!
> ...


To me there is a big difference between a mechanical and one that is caused by taking a risk tactially. 

It will be interesting to hear the LA spin on this one.

Len


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> was he sitting on FCs wheel and ignoring the flick of the elbow?
> 
> he could have taken cursory pulls and still had enough to take the stage
> 
> ...


So you think he should have helped Evans put time into Sastre?


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## gs15step (Mar 4, 2010)

Am I the only person fantasizing about the prospect of Geraint Thomas (a fellow Brit) potentially doing well in this years tour?

He's lost a lot of weight in the last 18 months, won the British Nationals last week, and I reccon' could raise a few eyebrows.

I might be wrong, but I can see him doing alright. That's if Wiggo loses enough time for the team to let Geraint go for it instead.

Ah, we can dream!


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Geez those cobbles seriously look like fun to race on. For real.


noted ....!!!


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

A tactical error:










anyway, time for a World Cup semifinals


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

As said above, riding the flats is a taking a risk but it's only a "mistake" if you flat. One of the first things they taught us about racing on cobbles when we were "cadets" was to "<i>tenir le haut du pavé</i> (keep to the top of the pavé). This is because the fields in northern France are full of silex (flint) and these rocks get spun off of the tractor's wheels onto the paved roads where they eventually wash down with the mud into the sides of the paved tracks. When the sun dries the mud flats, this makes for an easier riding surface but it is much more likely that you will get one of these flint shards stuck in your tyres if you ride on the mud flats. That said, everyone does it at one point or another because the few seconds respite from the jarring of the cobbles is worth it ... in most instances!

As per Stuart O'Grady: http://www.active.com/cycling/Articles/How-the-Pros-Do-It-Riding-the-Cobbles.htm

Easier Is Not Always Better
O'Grady offers a few extra pointers. "The best way is to ride straight down the middle of the road. It is the hardest, but it is the best. When riders start getting a bit tired or a bit desperate they dive off into the sides or into the dirt because it is a little bit easier ride, but that is where the rocks get flicked into and all the punctures are going to happen. The guys riding down the center of the road generally are the guys who are going pretty strongly."


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

philippec said:


> As said above, riding the flats is a taking a risk but it's only a "mistake" if you flat. One of the first things they taught us about racing on cobbles when we were "cadets" was to "_tenir le haut du pavé_ (keep to the top of the pavé). This is because the fields in northern France are full of silex (flint) and these rocks get spun off of the tractor's wheels onto the paved roads where they eventually wash down with the mud into the sides of the paved tracks. When the sun dries the mud flats, this makes for an easier riding surface but it is much more likely that you will get one of these flint shards stuck in your tyres if you ride on the mud flats. That said, everyone does it at one point or another because the few seconds respite from the jarring of the cobbles is worth it ... in most instances!
> 
> As per Stuart O'Grady: http://www.active.com/cycling/Articles/How-the-Pros-Do-It-Riding-the-Cobbles.htm
> 
> ...


Thanks

Len


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## neilg1 (Sep 23, 2009)

LWP said:


> And there it is. I knew somebody would miss nap time, get cranky and throw one of those up sooner or later. I kinda hoped I was wrong... but it's not an "adults only" forum.



Haha. Sorry. I'm just upset I can't find my yellow bracelet and my Madone.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

Awesome stage!

Who was it that said last night, "I will pick Alexander Vinokourov, who brings in the front group of seven riders after a serious pavé split in the main peloton, leaving Alberto Contador struggling once again to regain the leadership of a team that has promised to support him"? Seriously, Vino was a huge teammate today, and Alberto knows it:

"Vinokourov did a great job for me today. I am very pleased with how he rode and how the day transpired,” Contador said at the line after crossing 13th at 1:13 back. “My back wheel was rubbing for the final part of the race and it was simply the fatigue of the effort catching up with me. I felt pretty good on the cobbles today, so I can only be content with how things played out.” [Thanks, Velonews.]

Whose team looks thin now?

Evans was tremendous, supporting my prediction that he will again be on the podium in Paris. Menchov [my third podium pick] and Wiggins were also stout, finishing well ahead of Lance.

Very sorry for Fränk. That will really hurt Andy in the mountains. I can't imagine one Schleck succeeding without the other.

Not sorry for Lance, who showed such contempt for his captive team leader last year! Heroic ride to get back to contact with the leaders, but Armstrong needed to gain time today on the younger GC men. Instead, he lost time. Game over? Not when LA still has the strongest team in the Tour!

Man, what a great first week this is turning out to be!


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Cadel!


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

While I agree Frank's absence will be a blow to Andy...don't be surprised if it inspires him to do something special as a result. I could just as easily see this as a "win one for the Gipper" moment for Andy and his team. Consider how bad a crash he took yesterday and the kind of ride he put in today. Plus, he still has Jens... 

Hats off to Farrar for gutting out what must have been an excruciating ride.

As for LA, the day certainly didn't turn out the way he might have hoped/planned, but I think it's way too early to count him out. If this is really the last TdF he ever does, I suspect even if he doesn't win, we will see him leave everything he has out on the road.


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## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Lance got some serious problems now getting back up the GC. Ive said it in another thread but I just have a crazy feeling that neither Lance nor Contador will be winning this TDF. Long race ahead but I cant shake this feeling.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Len J said:


> If Phillipe is correct (& I suspect he is), then LA's flat was from a tactical error..........does that change your perspective?
> 
> len


I watched the race on Eurosport and the announcers quoted Stuey as saying the way not to flat on the cobbles is to ride the crown. It seems that it is well known in the peloton and it was a lapse of judgment for LA.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I watched the race on Eurosport and the announcers quoted Stuey as saying the way not to flat on the cobbles is to ride the crown. It seems that it is well known in the peloton and it was a lapse of judgment for LA.


or, as pointed out already, a calculated risk.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

den bakker said:


> or, as pointed out already, a calculated risk.


Calculated risk when it goes well, lack of judgment when it goes poorly. :blush2:


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Calculated risk when it goes well, lack of judgment when it goes poorly. :blush2:


well he might have been cooked and needed the easier going. Stay up there you get dropped. Go down the gutter and roll the dice.


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

philippec said:


> I wouldn't say RS is out of it but at 50 seconds down (Armstrong vs. Contador), it is an uphill struggle for them. Contador's flat cost him 9 seconds and that might have improved the buffer a bit.
> 
> When it's all over, I can see Andy dedicating his Tour GC victory to his fallen sibling .... ;-)
> 
> Also, when I saw Armstrong slipping down into the "flint lane" (which is what we call the flat dried mud pans on either side of the cobbles), I said to myself "he's going to flat"... and 10 seconds later he did. That was a mistake on his part but he wasn't the only one making it today! Contador, on the other hand, and Andy, for that matter, had a stellar day on the cobbles!


Are you sure he punctured on the flint lane? He might have moved there after feeling his front wheel go soft on the pave.


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

BuenosAires said:


> This thread is comical. Guys comparing a stage in the Tour de France to their local club ride and others giving a 7 time Tour winner advice on how to ride the cobbles.


Hey, it's the internet!


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

That was a good ride from Cadel. He is really honoring the Rainbow stripes!:thumbsup:


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> You do remember correctly. Contador and Schleck rode the cobbles better than Armstrong on this day.


rode better? or just got lucky with an untimely flat by lance who was extremely impressive catching the group ahead.

contador went down on the cobbles did he not?

Chad


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Flatting on the cobbles is not riding them well. Who finished in front of whom?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Nimitz said:


> rode better? or just got lucky with an untimely flat by lance who was extremely impressive catching the group ahead.
> 
> contador went down on the cobbles did he not?
> 
> Chad


He rode 30K on a broken spoke.

Yes, he did rode better, mechanicals included in the equation


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

philippec said:


> ...when I saw Armstrong slipping down into the "flint lane" (which is what we call the flat dried mud pans on either side of the cobbles), I said to myself "he's going to flat"... and 10 seconds later he did. ...


interesting I have always seen riders ride on these gutters before in PR...didn't know that what exactly makes flats more prone if its dry mud?

trying to learn

edit: saw your replay with O'grady's comments very interesting I guess its the risk vs reward.




jorgy said:


> Paranoia about electric motors. Race organizers would not let people be stationed with extra bikes along the cobbles. Bikes could only be gotten from a team car or neutral support.


had to be a team car only or a team member no neutral support (which made zero sense to me)

its hard for the team cars to respond quickly on the cobbles.

Chad


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> He rode 30K on a broken spoke.
> 
> Yes, he did rode better, mechanicals included in the equation


where did you find that he rode 30k on a broken spoke? 

Chad


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Nimitz said:


> where did you find that he rode 30k on a broken spoke?
> 
> Chad


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-makes-up-time-on-rivals-on-arenberg-pave



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-makes-up-time-on-rivals-on-arenberg-pave said:


> Contador wasn't spared of mechanicals, either. The Spaniard rode the last 30 kilometres with a broken spoke in his front wheel. "It was a shame that this spoke was broken, as it made me lose a bit of time in the end," he said. "But I think I would have lost more time if I had changed bikes so I decided just to finish the stage like that, even if the wheel braked a bit. But I'm still happy with how the day went."


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## louise (May 24, 2010)

Nimitz said:


> where did you find that he rode 30k on a broken spoke?
> 
> Chad



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-makes-up-time-on-rivals-on-arenberg-pave


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

philippec said:


> noted ....!!!



Uh-oh.  


Creaky, does carbon make good cobbles?


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

for everyone asking why it took so long for lance to get a wheel...well.



> But, our luck ran out quickly. We first lost Kloden to a flat tire between those two sections of cobbles. Then, the bad luck continued as a crash happened at the front of the group, holding up most of the favorites. This is when the real chaos for Team RadioShack began. Lance, Popo and Jani managed to stay in touch with or just ahead of the Contador group, while Levi and I were held up a little longer.





> "Up the road Lance had flatted. *Rast had come up from behind and given Lance his wheel to get him going again*, but he had already lost 45 valuable seconds.Jani and Levi were still in the Contador group when Levi also flatted, taking Jani’s wheel but still losing contact.


Courtesy of horner's blog.

Chad


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## T-Doc (Apr 4, 2002)

exactly


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