# Why Phil and Paul need to go.



## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

And before you say, "well, this was just an isolated incident, how can you attack them for that" this happens all too frequently while they're commenting. 

A Cofidis rider has left the pack on the first climb, and while the camera shows him catching and passing Blel Kadri, Phil is stupidly blathering away about "the rider who's left the pack to catch the three riders in front of him, DeMarchi, Bakalants and Kadri". 

The camera's right there, showing him what's going on in the race, but he's so wedded to what he's already decided he's going to say, or his 'tried and true commentary that's worked for forty years' that he fails to see what's actually happening in the race, and it passes him by without comment.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

I have no idea who these Phil and Paul characters are you speak of. 

I watch the Tour on Eurosport.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

They are still a wonderful cure for insomnia.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Retro Grouch said:


> I have no idea who these Phil and Paul characters are you speak of.
> 
> I watch the Tour on Eurosport.


This.

I'd rather pay (and do) $5/month for legit Eurosport streaming online and have to sit through the regular TV feed commercials (which aren't quite as bad as the US)....than pay $30 for the TdF sans any commercials and have to listen to Phil/Paul blow calling sprints/climbs/etc on a regular basis.



Although I would like to call a farking drone strike on whatever dumbarse thought the Vogon Poetry Corner was a "good idea".


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I continue to enjoy Phil and Paul. I don't much care if P&P occasionally report a name or report an incident inaccurately. I'm just not that obsessed that they nail down every last detail. I'm more interested in the general give-and-take of their commentary, the rhythm of their voices. What can I say? I find them charming. Because the HD, big-screen images are so telling (not to mention beautiful), I pretty much get the true story anyway. Obviously, you guys seem to glean the true story, too.


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## David23 (Jun 5, 2012)

Mapei said:


> I continue to enjoy Phil and Paul. I don't much care if P&P occasionally report a name or report an incident inaccurately. I'm just not that obsessed that they nail down every last detail. I'm more interested in the general give-and-take of their commentary, the rhythm of their voices. What can I say? I find them charming. Because the HD, big-screen images are so telling (not to mention beautiful), I pretty much get the true story anyway. Obviously, you guys seem to glean the true story, too.


I agree completely. I've seen other commentators less accurate and less entertaining. I'm happy to overlook a few mistakes for their overall knowledge and experience, which, with all due respect, is greater than any of us on this board.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Retro Grouch said:


> I have no idea who these Phil and Paul characters are you speak of.
> 
> I watch the Tour on Eurosport.


That's who I watch too, they are great. Love Sean or is it Shawn?

Tried to watch what I think is BIEN or something and those guys were terrible commentators. Very boring.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Marc said:


> This.
> 
> I'd rather pay (and do) $5/month for legit Eurosport streaming online and have to sit through the regular TV feed commercials (which aren't quite as bad as the US)....than pay $30 for the TdF sans any commercials and have to listen to Phil/Paul blow calling sprints/climbs/etc on a regular basis.
> 
> ...


Eurosport is not legit online if you live in the US. They restrict it for contractual reasons.

I like Phil and Paul. I play the $15 app on my HDTV through my tablet. Works very well and keeps me (Comcast) cable free.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Eurosport is not legit online if you live in the US. They restrict it for contractual reasons.
> 
> I like Phil and Paul. I play the $15 app on my HDTV through my tablet. Works very well and keeps me (Comcast) cable free.


Define, "legit". I paid my subscription fee, they took my money I offered...and regularly email me as a faithful customer. And I get the service.

Sounds perfectly legit to me


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

Every year... the 'expert arm chair haters' like to pile on the hate to P & P.. 

After hearing other commentators... They ALL make mistakes, get wrong names, talk over action, etc... 

I'll take Phil and Paul... For me the coverage on NBCS has been the best in years! They have P & P, Steve & Steve and Bob and CVV... Lots of great insights, interviews all over the place with riders, managers, etc. and seems to be great chemistry between them all. A+ this year IMO.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

David23 said:


> I agree completely. I've seen other commentators less accurate and less entertaining. I'm happy to overlook a few mistakes for their overall knowledge and experience, which, with all due respect, is greater than any of us on this board.


Count another for P&P


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

pedalruns said:


> Every year... the 'expert arm chair haters' like to pile on the hate to P & P..
> 
> After hearing other commentators... They ALL make mistakes, get wrong names, talk over action, etc...
> 
> I'll take Phil and Paul... For me the coverage on NBCS has been the best in years! They have P & P, Steve & Steve and Bob and CVV... Lots of great insights, interviews all over the place with riders, managers, etc. and seems to be great chemistry between them all. A+ this year IMO.


Every year there are more and more complaints...because the undynamic duo make more and more atrocious mistakes. Last I was forced to listen to them (Any of the Tour Tracker races) their odds of getting anything right, like when the sprint points were as per the race book, was about 1-in-2.

"Great insights" indeed....the interviews are always a joke. If you use your memory the managers/riders always say the same **** over and over almost like they use a book similar to P/P's dictionary of cliche phrases. The "stage is (easy/hard)", "my legs are feeling (good/bad)", and so on. The interviews are nothing more than Mad-Libs really especially the pre-race and mid-race ones. And are nothing but a distraction in a distraction.

P/P can't get anything right...as for the other clown commentators, they don't even have a charming Brit accent make up for the meat that is missing. Last Saturday I had NBC OTA on during a Eurosport commercial break...one of the NBC idiots was talking about today's the first day of climbing...completely oblivious to the days filled with Cat3/4 mountains the preceding few days.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Before anyone gripes about Phil and Paul record a stage and try doing color commentary for a 4-5 hours. Then come in here and tell us how you didn't make mistakes, repeat yourself, or rely on cliches.

To me, they're part of the tradition of watching the tour.


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

Mapei said:


> I continue to enjoy Phil and Paul. I don't much care if P&P occasionally report a name or report an incident inaccurately. I'm just not that obsessed that they nail down every last detail. I'm more interested in the general give-and-take of their commentary, the rhythm of their voices. What can I say? I find them charming. Because the HD, big-screen images are so telling (not to mention beautiful), I pretty much get the true story anyway. Obviously, you guys seem to glean the true story, too.


I agree. Watching the Tour without Phil and Paul is like Christmas without presents. When they make mistakes it just makes me love them even more.


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## kauphy (May 13, 2013)

I agree with the OP. Zero unobvious insights, mistakes aplenty and droning voices. They're clowns to me.


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## go do it (Sep 12, 2007)

heres a new drinking game
everytime Christian Vande Velde says "at this point in time" you gotta drink!
and that goes for Bobkke too!


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## askmass (Sep 28, 2009)

go do it said:


> heres a new drinking game
> everytime Christian Vande Velde says "at this point in time" you gotta drink!


Velde is just horrible all around and could not land a small market local gig based on his broadcast merits, and his insights hardly balance the scale. He is painful to listen to as he stammers attempting to put together even the most simple of commentary.

Bob Roll is light years a better veteran of the sport commentator.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

Seriously, what do you guys want? They're calling stages that last for hours that are mostly boring until the last 4K or so. What do you want, some music to go along with it?
Who wouldn't miss a thing or two?
My wife and I pretty much laugh at the Ligettisms and Paul repeating the same phrases. I wait for "the man from the Isle of Man" with baited breath every time Cav is riding. Phil wears his British empire on his sleeve.
Look at it this way. They're like a couple of eccentric relatives you get to see once a year that tell the same stories over and over. I'll miss them when they're gone.


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## DonMI6 (Apr 8, 2013)

I still like them as a double act. They don't cost me anything & I appreciate how hard it must be to fill in several hours a day when there may not be a lot happening. I'm impressed that they manage to identify riders correctly as often as they do!


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Opus51569 said:


> Before anyone gripes about Phil and Paul record a stage and try doing color commentary for a 4-5 hours. Then come in here and tell us how you didn't make mistakes, repeat yourself, or rely on cliches.
> 
> To me, they're part of the tradition of watching the tour.


This +1


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Opus51569 said:


> Before anyone gripes about Phil and Paul record a stage and try doing color commentary for a 4-5 hours. Then come in here and tell us how you didn't make mistakes, repeat yourself, or rely on cliches.


Of course it would be very difficult to rattle on for hours but I wish they would just watch the vid feed. Sometimes it makes you wonder if they're watching what we're watching. I distinctly saw one rider remove and pass his armwarmers through the team car window. Paul told us that the rider went to the team car to get a bottle. Stuff like that. Are they multi-tasking so much that they're not always looking at the screen?


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## GFish (Apr 4, 2011)

Another P & P fan. 

The Tour isn't the Tour without Phil and Paul.


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## adjtogo (Nov 18, 2006)

I have a suggestion, and this is what I do for NFL football when certain commentators and announcers are broadcasting the game, especially "Dan Dierdorf...mute the TV and just watch it without sound. You can watch it and commentate in your head, the race as you see it.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

Mapei said:


> I continue to enjoy Phil and Paul. I don't much care if P&P occasionally report a name or report an incident inaccurately. I'm just not that obsessed that they nail down every last detail. I'm more interested in the general give-and-take of their commentary, the rhythm of their voices. What can I say? I find them charming. Because the HD, big-screen images are so telling (not to mention beautiful), I pretty much get the true story anyway. Obviously, you guys seem to glean the true story, too.


exactly! bike racing is not the most exciting viewing event in the world. what phil and paul do is match a vocal cadence to the event that keeps you engaged. even in the meandering early parts of flat stages, i still find myself drawn to the television.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Opus51569 said:


> Before anyone gripes about Phil and Paul record a stage and try doing color commentary for a 4-5 hours. Then come in here and tell us how you didn't make mistakes, repeat yourself, or rely on cliches.
> 
> To me, they're part of the tradition of watching the tour.


Ah yes, the old and tired "you're not a professional at _____, so you don't understand and are not allowed to criticize their work". That one is almost as old and tired as Phil and Paul's commentary. Please. Commentary is what these people do for a living, they're supposed to be at least moderately good at filling the air...not just the first random guy off the street. And Phil/Paul have had a couple decades to maybe get good at it.

Yea Mr. Roofer, it looks like you f*cked my roof up...but I'm not a professional so keep it up!


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

These guys are watching and commenting in real time, so unless they're prescient, what they say necessarily lags what you see. And, some of the ideas they express take longer than several camera cuts to convey. Phil does tend to get some of the analysis or technical explanations a bit wrong, but usually Paul tactfully steps in to correct these. Phil, especially lately, is getting names mixed up. Comes with getting older, I'm finding out.

Bob Roll is kinda quirky and has some weird facial expressions, but his observations and explanations are right on. Christian needs work. I think with practice and some coaching he could be good.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

looigi said:


> These guys are watching and commenting in real time, so unless they're prescient, what they say necessarily lags what you see. And, some of the ideas they express take longer than several camera cuts to convey. Phil does tend to get some of the analysis or technical explanations a bit wrong, but usually Paul tactfully steps in to correct these. Phil, especially lately, is getting names mixed up. Comes with getting older, I'm finding out.
> 
> Bob Roll is kinda quirky and has some weird facial expressions, but his observations and explanations are right on. Christian needs work. I think with practice and some coaching he could be good.


No.

They're not seeing the race "real time" typically. It is one of the tricks of productions. The live broadcast video is delayed by some time gap, so it ends up that the commentators are seeing video ahead of what we schlums on the back end see. And then the (delayed) audio ends up syncing with the delayed video) out the back of the productions bunker

If Phil and Paul are only getting live-live video that is straight OTA...then NBC needs to fire their productions department.

No one is complaining that Phil/Paul lag behind the action...we're venting that Phil/Paul are downright wrong more often than not when there's no reason for them to be.


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

+1 for supporter of the 2 P's. I like the rhythm of their voices and I'm OK with the mistakes. Ooh just listed to Paul point out the turn off to the back road up to Alpe D'Huez. Well played Paul!

I met the guys in Grenoble at the Tour a couple of years ago. Very nice and willing to hang out, talk to my kids and shoot the breeze.

VDV needs work and I think they'll give him one more spring. Horner IMO, unless he gets work in management, will be a shoe in. He's always been a great interview and expresses his understanding of the race well.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Marc said:


> No.
> 
> They're not seeing the race "real time" typically. It is one of the tricks of productions. The live broadcast video is delayed by some time gap, so it ends up that the commentators are seeing video ahead of what we schlums on the back end see. And then the (delayed) audio ends up syncing with the delayed video) out the back of the productions bunker.


They're commenting in sinc with what they're seeing, even if what they're seeing is delayed. They don't watch, script the comments, and then read them along with a delayed transmission. The whole thing can certainly be further delayed, as it certainly is when I'm watching on my DVR.


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## bike981 (Sep 14, 2010)

What about Steve -something- and Steve -something else- who do the in-race commentary (from team cars, apparently)? Keep or get rid of?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

bike981 said:


> What about Steve -something- and Steve -something else- who do the in-race commentary (from team cars, apparently)? Keep or get rid of?


You mean the DS-interviews while they're on the road and in the car?

After 3 days of in-car-during-race-interviews last year (IIRC), Eurosport quit even bothering with those. Just bad and worthless even in the eyes of the commentators. Something that sounded much better in an exec's head than IRL.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

They are still pretty good, but I do notice the mistakes and not paying attention to the race a lot more now. Boldly proclaiming something like, "No one would consider attacking here," as an attack goes. But what I'm getting really tired of is hearing the same old expressions. The one that always grates me is when the picture breaks up or goes out, and Paul automatically says something about "The trees causing picture breakup." Give me a break. In the Tour of California this year, on the stage into Pasadena, he kept saying that, even though there were rarely any trees around. He kept repeating it as they rode a circuit on the largely treeless streets of Pasadena. No Paul, that wasn't the trees. In fact, trees rarely cause picture break up. But it's the simplest explanation, and the only one he knows, so he says it, even when it makes no sense.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> They are still pretty good, but I do notice the mistakes and not paying attention to the race a lot more now. Boldly proclaiming something like, "No one would consider attacking here," as an attack goes. But what I'm getting really tired of is hearing the same old expressions. The one that always grates me is when the picture breaks up or goes out, and Paul automatically says something about "The trees causing picture breakup." Give me a break. In the Tour of California this year, on the stage into Pasadena, he kept saying that, even though there were rarely any trees around. He kept repeating it as they rode a circuit on the largely treeless streets of Pasadena. No Paul, that wasn't the trees. In fact, trees rarely cause picture break up. But it's the simplest explanation, and the only one he knows, so he says it, even when it makes no sense.



The TOC video feed was absolutely horrendous. It broke up constantly. Unfortunately, Paul was covering up for it. I thought the crews that did the TDF also did the TOC or am I mistaken. It was a disgrace.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

anyone knows if there's a money prize crossing izoard first? 
Not quite sure from the commentary.


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## DonMI6 (Apr 8, 2013)

I think it was the 5000 euro 'Le Souvenir Henri Desgrange'.


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## 4Crawler (Jul 13, 2011)

den bakker said:


> anyone knows if there's a money prize crossing izoard first?
> Not quite sure from the commentary.


x2, I think it is 5000 euros for the "Henri-Desgrange memory price" for being first over the highest point of each years Tour.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

"Ooh just listed to Paul point out the turn off to the back road up to Alpe D'Huez. Well played Paul!"
That was a nice moment. Earlier he made a comment about the turn up the main road to L'Alpe d'Huez. That right turn would send you up to Villard Notre Dame. The road to L'Alpe d'Huez was a left turn after they crossed the bridge over the Isere. Don't worry, Paul... you're forgiven.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Two days in a row now I've passed out before the finish.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> Ah yes, the old and tired "you're not a professional at _____, so you don't understand and are not allowed to criticize their work". That one is almost as old and tired as Phil and Paul's commentary. Please. Commentary is what these people do for a living, they're supposed to be at least moderately good at filling the air...not just the first random guy off the street. And Phil/Paul have had a couple decades to maybe get good at it.
> 
> Yea Mr. Roofer, it looks like you f*cked my roof up...but I'm not a professional so keep it up!


Not at all. You can criticize all you like. It just doesn't mean anything. 

Seriously. All I'm saying is that they are "moderately good at filling the air" and random guys on the street should temper their criticism with some appreciation for how difficult the job can be.

I've noticed this year they've been sharing more of the job with Bob and Christian. I wonder if they're slowly starting to pass the torch.


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## dombey19 (Oct 2, 2008)

I agree with opus51569 above. They must fill four to five hours of air time everyday--for over 20 days--describing a lot of activity that is extremely repetitive and sometimes, frankly, boring. And they can't just watch silently. They have to keep talking, watching screens they don't control, with a race radio plugged into one ear while they are doing it. And of course they also have to be ready to cut to commercials or comment on the last chateau the helicopter decided to show us. Anyone who thinks this is easy should volunteer. The world is full of ex-athletes who thought it would be easy to provide commentary on a baseball or football game---and failed miserably. And those events are far more "controlled" and less chaotic than a bike race.


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

love4himies said:


> That's who I watch too, they are great. Love Sean or is it Shawn?


He's Irish. Take a wild guess.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Now there is one "Paulism" that I wish he would forget. Whenever the race course goes over an older tarmac road he talks about the "tar melting" - making for dangerous conditions. Now this is true on extremely hot days (usually over 90 degrees Fahrenheit) but he says it every time we see the dark tar. I guess he keeps remembering Joseba Beloki's crash a decade ago (which was actually caused by his front tire rolling off the rim and so might not have been the result of soft tar).

Having cut my eyeteeth on Georgia roads I can tell you that on colder dry days that tar strip is not melting - it provides a smoother section of roadway than the rest of the road and is thus faster. It is caused by car tires shoving the gravel deeper into the tar on hot days but it stays as a dark tar strip until the road is resurfaced. In a wet descent it can be hairy and on extremely hot days it can be soft and sticky - or on really hot days it might slip under the g-forces of a high speed cornering attempt - but on days like those we have seen recently it is not dangerous, Paul. Has it been that long since you rode your bike?


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## DHerz (Apr 27, 2014)

To me is like listening to Vin Scully or Keith Jackson - the voice of the sport. Part of the fabric for me listening on the US. I enjoy the sweeping helicopter views on my HD TV and their commentary along with it. I forgive (and maybe expect) a few errors in the descriptions. No huge issues. Also I've enjoyed some of Christian VDV's fresh rider perspective insight. He is a little clumsy at times, but he brings really interesting tidbits of the everyday life of a TDF participant and some of the "game within the game" analysis.


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## mjduct (Jun 1, 2013)

I think they should hire Jens Voight and Chris Horner the replace them both!


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## Guppie58 (Oct 24, 2006)

Be careful what you wish for. We could end up with Bob Costas. I'd rather get my TDF update through smoke signals than listen to him.


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## Dan333sp (Aug 17, 2010)

If any of you watch F1 racing as well, they remind me of Murray Walker. Mistake- prone, but part of the fabric of the sport and thus not entirely intolerable. I think Chris Horner should replace van de Velde when he retires, he was very outgoing and well spoken when they had him on a few days ago.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

There is a little too much middle age rage here and I'm fairly certain there aren't any commentators that would pass RBR standards. Y'all take racers and commentators entirely too personally. The complaining would never stop.

Secondly, race a few times and see how exciting it is most of the time. Sure, crits are fun. Time trials are fairly boring other than the burn. You really need someone to animate races or they'd only appeal to racers.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

go do it said:


> heres a new drinking game
> everytime Christian Vande Velde says "at this point in time" you gotta drink!
> and that goes for Bobkke too!


watch Mountain Monsters and drink every time they say "sonofab!tch' and you'll be loaded 15 minutes in


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

spade2you said:


> There is a little too much middle age rage here and I'm fairly certain there aren't any commentators that would pass RBR standards. Y'all take racers and commentators entirely too personally. The complaining would never stop.


agreed ...  ... I have no clue what P&P see from French Television and what NBCSN does with it. I'm sure they have multiple screens with multiple video feeds. I have noticed on a couple of occasions, like today, where Phil makes a comment about a specific shot but we are seeing something different. I find it extremely hard to believe that is Phil blowing it or getting senile or whatever some are trying to suggest. Just maybe the production crew does blow it in some cases.


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## 4Crawler (Jul 13, 2011)

atpjunkie said:


> watch Mountain Monsters and drink every time they say "sonofab!tch' and you'll be loaded 15 minutes in


Or on EuroSport, every time Carlton says "ginger beard" when Luca Paolini pops out of the front of the peloton


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

dombey19 said:


> I agree with opus51569 above. They must fill four to five hours of air time everyday--for over 20 days--describing a lot of activity that is extremely repetitive and sometimes, frankly, boring. And they can't just watch silently. They have to keep talking, watching screens they don't control, with a race radio plugged into one ear while they are doing it. And of course they also have to be ready to cut to commercials or comment on the last chateau the helicopter decided to show us. Anyone who thinks this is easy should volunteer. The world is full of ex-athletes who thought it would be easy to provide commentary on a baseball or football game---and failed miserably. And those events are far more "controlled" and less chaotic than a bike race.


No, it's not easy. But when a rider is passing one of the riders from the breakaway, they shouldn't be making comments like, "he's trying to chase up to*same rider that he just passed*". Jesus, just pay attention to what's happening in the friggin' race.


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## bluelena69 (Apr 19, 2005)

First, the commentators aren't seeing exactly what we see on the screen. They are looking at 3-4 different feeds on different screens. I can't understand the complaints about the occasional flub. I can see what's going on in the race and the commentary is just fallback or background noise. Personally, I enjoy Phil and Paul. I'm also dammed happy to be able to watch races. It's much better than in the early 80s, when I, as a kid, would wait all year for a 15 minute summary of a race (with cheesy John Tesh sound tracks), only to have some stupid golf tournament go into sudden death and supersede the race. It happened several times and its still primary among many reasons why I absolutely hate golf.

Just be happy we get the coverage we get. Trust me, it could be a lot worse. Complaining about today's cycling commentary is quintessentially a first world problem.


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm tired of the TDF song they play when they leave before and after commercial breaks every year.


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## NextTime (Oct 13, 2007)

Here's another vote for P & P. I also like the Eurosport coverage. I go back and forth. They all get things wrong from time to time but it's not because they don't know what they are talking about and it's not because they lack passion about the sport. They just make mistakes like we all do. 

It's all good.


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## Dynastar (Jun 8, 2007)

Mike T. said:


> Of course it would be very difficult to rattle on for hours but I wish they would just watch the vid feed. Sometimes it makes you wonder if they're watching what we're watching. I distinctly saw one rider remove and pass his arm warmers through the team car window. Paul told us that the rider went to the team car to get a bottle. Stuff like that. Are they multi-tasking so much that they're not always looking at the screen?


From my understanding they are watching the same feed as we are, but on 13" tv screens not the 60" we have in our living rooms. Plus, you may have not have noticed they are a bit older, so probably don't have the best eyesight.

That said, it does appear that Phil is making more mistakes than normal this year. I still enjoy them though - not so much CVV (he is painful to listen to)


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## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

bluelena69 said:


> First, the commentators aren't seeing exactly what we see on the screen. They are looking at 3-4 different feeds on different screens. I can't understand the complaints about the occasional flub. I can see what's going on in the race and the commentary is just fallback or background noise. Personally, I enjoy Phil and Paul. I'm also dammed happy to be able to watch races. It's much better than in the early 80s, when I, as a kid, would wait all year for a 15 minute summary of a race (with cheesy John Tesh sound tracks), only to have some stupid golf tournament go into sudden death and supersede the race. It happened several times and its still primary among many reasons why I absolutely hate golf.
> 
> Just be happy we get the coverage we get. Trust me, it could be a lot worse. Complaining about today's cycling commentary is quintessentially a first world problem.


Totally agree. I remember taping on my VCR if I was at a race hoping to have a few minutes of coverage when I got home. Something during the week...forget it. Hate to admit it but J Tesh music was not that bad...I believe it was because of the association not the quality of the work. I still marvel that I can now watch every race, every day for hours on end and FF through commercials. I have zero problem with P&P. It would not be July without them.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Meh, those guys don't do much for me. The Eurosport guys seem to do fine without making mistakes, and with deeper tactical insight as well.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

spade2you said:


> There is a little too much middle age rage here and I'm fairly certain there aren't any commentators that would pass RBR standards. Y'all take racers and commentators entirely too personally. The complaining would never stop.
> 
> Secondly, race a few times and see how exciting it is most of the time. Sure, crits are fun. Time trials are fairly boring other than the burn. You really need someone to animate races or they'd only appeal to racers.



you're so cool


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## obed (Jan 12, 2014)

This is my first year watching as I am new to cycling and yes even I have noticed the mistakes and wondered if they were seeing the same thing I was seeing... but I have to admit, I still enjoyed the hell out of listening to them. Maybe by the end of this season I will actually be able to figure out what is going on in these races. I was totally confused in the tour of california... a little less in the giro.. then there was another on, I forgot what it was called, at least in the TOF I have only a mild fog.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

rplace13 said:


> Totally agree. I remember taping on my VCR if I was at a race hoping to have a few minutes of coverage when I got home. Something during the week...forget it. Hate to admit it but J Tesh music was not that bad...I believe it was because of the association not the quality of the work. I still marvel that I can now watch every race, every day for hours on end and FF through commercials. I have zero problem with P&P. It would not be July without them.



ESPN would have a half hour recap every day during the Big Mig years. Only problem was it was at a different time each day in the middle if the night. You had to scan the TV listings carefully and reprogram the VCR every day. Of course, it was pre-empted and pushed out of the way a lot to make way for "real sports".

Ah, the fun we had following cycling back then. :mad2:


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## Nazz44 (Jun 26, 2003)

I like Phil and Paul. Like it's been said before, part of the tradition of watching the Tour.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

My favorite Phil and Pailisms:

Spot of bother,

On the rivet ,

Select group of heads of state, 

Hid legs are screaming in pain

He's riding backwards

That's all off the top of my head


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

dwt said:


> My favorite Phil and Pailisms:
> 
> Spot of bother,
> 
> ...


More...

"He is reaching into his suitcase of courage"

"The elastic is about to snap"

"_______ is passing ________ like he's a club rider"


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

dwt said:


> My favorite Phil and Pailisms:
> 
> Spot of bother,
> 
> ...


"I must say"


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

"The cat has been thrown amongst the pigeons".


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Think Paul has lost it too now. He referred to Ramunas Navardauskas as Raimondas Rumšas. Senility has set in....


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> Think Paul has lost it too now. He referred to Ramunas Navardauskas as Raimondas Rumšas. Senility has set in....


He also called Christophe Moreau "François Moreau". Ruined my day.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Opus51569 said:


> Before anyone gripes about Phil and Paul record a stage and try doing color commentary for a 4-5 hours. Then come in here and tell us how you didn't make mistakes, repeat yourself, or rely on cliches.
> 
> To me, they're part of the tradition of watching the tour.


Ridiculous logic. They are supposed to be experienced pros. We don't compare them to us. I don't go to a shitty lawyer on the basis that I would make too many mistakes if I represented myself. I go to a good lawyer. P&P are just not that good. They are quite histrionic and/or over the top. For the last 5 non-mountain stages they have been saying over and over again how desperate Sagan is for a stage win and how he would gladly throw away all his second places for a win. Well, I think Sagan said BS to that. I mean, where do they come up with that sh1t. Another one is their whole Van Garderen/Pinot/Bardet "we're looking at the future of the Tour with these 23, 24 and 25 year olds. My god. How many time are you going to say that crap. But, my real b1tch about them is how they dealt with the Lance Armstrong situation.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Tschai said:


> Ridiculous logic. They are supposed to be experienced pros. We don't compare them to us. I don't go to a shitty lawyer on the basis that I would make too many mistakes if I represented myself. I go to a good lawyer. P&P are just not that good. They are quite histrionic and/or over the top. For the last 5 non-mountain stages they have been saying over and over again how desperate Sagan is for a stage win and how he would gladly throw away all his second places for a win. Well, I think Sagan said BS to that. I mean, where do they come up with that sh1t. Another one is their whole Van Garderen/Pinot/Bardet "we're looking at the future of the Tour with these 23, 24 and 25 year olds. My god. How many time are you going to say that crap. But, my real b1tch about them is how they dealt with the Lance Armstrong situation.


Wow. Talk about ridiculous logic. 

You do realize when you say "They are supposed to be experienced pros. We don't compare them to us." then go about pointing out mistakes they make, you are absolutely comparing them to you. You obviously know more or you wouldn't feel it necessary to come here and point out their errors. It's the nature of criticism and judgment. 

As for the professional analogies... nobody intentionally goes to a "shitty lawyer"... or plumber for that matter. But you do hire someone because they have knowledge and expertise that you lack, or do a job that you're unwilling, or unable, to do yourself. All I'm saying is let's acknowledge that. If I want to criticize one of the riders, for example, I have to acknowledge that they ride better on their worst day than I will ride on my best day... ever. 

It's too easy to cherry pick gaffs and errors in multiple hours of coverage over a three week broadcast. It's fish in a barrel. It just reads as hollow and petty. It reminds me of that quote by Brendan Behan about theatre critics. "A critic in the theatre is like a eunuch in a harem. They're there every night. They see it done every night. But they just can't do it themselves." 

If you don't like their coverage, don't watch it, or watch it with the sound off.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Opus51569 said:


> Wow. Talk about ridiculous logic.
> 
> You do realize when you say "They are supposed to be experienced pros. We don't compare them to us." then go about pointing out mistakes they make, you are absolutely comparing them to you. You obviously know more or you wouldn't feel it necessary to come here and point out their errors. It's the nature of criticism and judgment.
> 
> ...


We don't need to acknowledge anything. CVV totally sucks at commentating. Why do I have to acknowledge that I can't ride like him or that I know less than him? It simply makes no sense. The "try doing what they do" argument fails because we are determining whether they suck or not. We are not determining how we compare to them. Behan's quote sounds like it's coming from a bitter old man trying to return soup at a deli. Also, it is irrelevant whether I watch their coverage or not.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

Tschai said:


> We don't need to acknowledge anything. CVV totally sucks at commentating. Why do I have to acknowledge that I can't ride like him or that I know less than him? It simply makes no sense. The "try doing what they do" argument fails because we are determining whether they suck or not. We are not determining how we compare to them. Behan's quote sounds like it's coming from a bitter old man trying to return soup at a deli. Also, it is irrelevant whether I watch their coverage or not.


I don't agree with YOUR OPINION on CVV.. I don't think he sucks at commentating, it is his first year. I also don't agree with YOUR OPINION on Phil and Paul, I still enjoy listening to them. I do agree with your opinioin on how they handeled the Lance sitution though, wasn't good at all IMO of course. 

Everybody has an opinion... That is why I come to the forums it would be boring if we all agreed on everything.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

pedalruns said:


> I don't agree with YOUR OPINION on CVV.. I don't think he sucks at commentating, it is his first year. I also don't agree with YOUR OPINION on Phil and Paul, I still enjoy listening to them. I do agree with your opinioin on how they handeled the Lance sitution though, wasn't good at all IMO of course.
> 
> Everybody has an opinion... That is why I come to the forums it would be boring if we all agreed on everything.


All of course is opinion, including my take on CVV. I like his content, but not his presentation. I doubt that will get much better if he is allowed to continue. Regardless, I hope he continues.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I can't take those two dottering old fools.

Love Eurosport commentary worlds more. 

CVV will be good, IF he can clean up his delivery. He's not polished enough for the main gig, but his insight would be invaluable as a lead commentator (which is what it seems they are doing: pulling together more of Bob and CVV and less of the dottering duo.)


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

Phil and Paul are the de facto Tour de France voice for North America. Truth is, they're not getting any younger and the alternatives, as seen on NBCSN, make for a pretty scary day when they retire.
Personally, I like the most the Carlton Kirby - Sean Kelly pair on Eurosport. While Phil and Paul dig deep in their suitcase of trademark phrases, Carlton brings in the moment commentary and great side notes. That's my $0.02.


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## Horze (Mar 12, 2013)

They actually are not bad. To take a few comments out of their hats, they're seasoned professional commentators and do a good job of it in my view.

Eurosport is not bad either. Those commentators are either sipping lattes or spilling off at the edge of their seats.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Marc said:


> Ah yes, the old and tired "you're not a professional at _____, so you don't understand and are not allowed to criticize their work". That one is almost as old and tired as Phil and Paul's commentary. Please. Commentary is what these people do for a living, they're supposed to be at least moderately good at filling the air...not just the first random guy off the street. And Phil/Paul have had a couple decades to maybe get good at it.
> 
> Yea Mr. Roofer, it looks like you f*cked my roof up...but I'm not a professional so keep it up!


Their mistakes diminish the Tour that much for you that it affects your life, maybe it's time to look for a new one, a life that is...


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Mr. Scary said:


> Their mistakes diminish the Tour that much for you that it affects your life, maybe it's time to look for a new one, a life that is...


Ah yes, the good ole "if it effects your life that much, perhaps you should _________." Um, nope, nobody's life is altered. We are expressing a simple opinion on an internet forum. Why is it that certain folks get so hot and bothered about something so mundane? Why is a "time to look for a new life" response justified in response to an opinion that someone that doesn't like a couple of sports announcers? Phil and Paul suck. If you disagree, so be it. However, to suggest that someone needs to get a new life because they happen to dislike a sports announcer is nuts. The same goes for the "we are lucky to even have them" argument. Whether we are lucky or not has no bearing on whether they suck. Same goes for the "if you don't like them, turn off your TV" argument. Again, irrelevant.


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## MoonHowl (Oct 5, 2008)

I like Phil and Paul


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

MoonHowl said:


> I like Phil and Paul


Me too! 

Made watching the race enjoyable. Love their pronunciation as well as commentary. I don't race and don't watch much TV but get a kick out of these two old pros. "Spot of bother," "twenty seven years of age," "spot of bother," " these boys are flying up this hill", " looking very good on his machine", "well mate are you coming along or not", "he's riding the time trial of his life". Love the way they say these phrases!

Yeah, they use cliches and make mistakes but listening to them is as much of the tour as the riders and the race itself. Pretty clear they love cycling and love the tour. I really hope they keep going.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

I haven't been paying such close attention, but tonight, thought I heard Phil refer to one of the riders as "the first Chinaman to participate......"

Turned to John and asked if that was considered PC. Maybe it's fine, like "Irishman," but it sounded odd.

They don't bother me, though I'm not that much of a stickler for details. They could be making up names and I probably wouldn't notice. Besides, Bob is a character and he's the one responsible for getting Lance to stick with cycling after his cancer treatment........FWIW.......


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Today Phil Said "Vinchenzy Nobilly".


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## jacman (Jun 27, 2010)

I get really up early in the morning to watch the races on the TV because the race is in Canada or Alaksa or some non USA place and the time is all wacky they eat supper when we eat breakfast and the people talk funny. anyway, I fillup my bottles with Slivovitz and smoke some medicine. then i hop on the ol' trainer and ride for a little bit, but i can't spend too much time doin that because she has to go to work. 
then i sit down and watch the race but i turn off the sound so i can listen to music while i sit down and then watch the race a while. 

today i was listening to The Grateful Dead's From The Mars Hotel. So today when Jens was attacking, the song 'Pride Of Cucamonga' was playing and that was trippy because you know Jens is from Cucamonga. So it was kinda trippy. you can tell Jens is from Cucamonga because his american speaking is like they speak it in Cucamonga.

Those 2 guys who talk so much during the race on TV are also from Cucamonga because the talk american funny like Jens. 

Then there was a part when the riders came out of the TV and were riding really fast in my living room going around and around but they didn't break anything which is good because my wife would have been really mad.
but i think i hallucinated that part. 

anyway those 2 guys from Cucamonga are OK.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

jacman said:


> I get really up early in the morning to watch the races on the TV because the race is in Canada or Alaksa or some non USA place and the time is all wacky they eat supper when we eat breakfast and the people talk funny. anyway, I fillup my bottles with Slivovitz and smoke some medicine. then i hop on the ol' trainer and ride for a little bit, but i can't spend too much time doin that because she has to go to work.
> then i sit down and watch the race but i turn off the sound so i can listen to music while i sit down and then watch the race a while.
> 
> today i was listening to The Grateful Dead's From The Mars Hotel. So today when Jens was attacking, the song 'Pride Of Cucamonga' was playing and that was trippy because you know Jens is from Cucamonga. So it was kinda trippy. you can tell Jens is from Cucamonga because his american speaking is like they speak it in Cucamonga.
> ...


Couldn't have said it better myself! Now I know why some of these dudes talk American funny. At least they teach American in Cucamonga schools, they should pass a law that all racers should speak american so we can understand interviews and stuff.


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## adjtogo (Nov 18, 2006)

BacDoc said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself! Now I know why some of these dudes talk American funny. At least they teach American in Cucamonga schools, they should pass a law that all racers should speak american so we can understand interviews and stuff.


Now that's funny!! I didn't know there was such a language as "American"!! Where do you live? I've lived all over the world and never met anyone that speaks "American"!! LOL!!


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Christine said:


> I haven't been paying such close attention, but tonight, thought I heard Phil refer to one of the riders as "the first Chinaman to participate......"


You did. It kind of struck me as odd, too. It's considered a little derogatory these days, I think.


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## Fett (Jun 9, 2003)

I am willing to live with a few mistakes in exchange for the entertainment value they provide. I view it kind of like watching Harry Caray during his last few years with the Chicago Cubs. You never knew what was going to come out of his mouth, but you were likely to be entertained. I would rather have that than 100% accurate, dry as a desert commentary.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Ya, I never got why. You say Frenchman, Englishman etc. I do cringe when I hear some dumbass refer to every Asian as a Chinaman. That is offensive.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

Christine said:


> I haven't been paying such close attention, but tonight, thought I heard Phil refer to one of the riders as "the first Chinaman to participate......"
> 
> Turned to John and asked if that was considered PC. Maybe it's fine, like "Irishman," but it sounded odd.


A couple of years ago he referred to Yohann Gène as the "first colored cyclist" to be in the Tour.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

In regards to making mistakes, they are multitasking and dealing with a lot of info over the course of hours all the while trying to be entertaining... if anything though I find it funny when they slip up. It rarely actually matters or confuses me... so who cares. If Paul referred to Nibali as "Contador" for an entire stage I would probably be cracking up the entire time.. whereas I'm guessing some people here would get genuinely angry and write letters to NBC or something? For the most part I think they do a good job. I think they add character to the Tour.

My main gripe with them, or at least Paul, is that he tends to repeat the exact same things over and over within a short time span... it's actually nice to repeat stuff in general, because it helps to avoid missing key pieces of info when fast forwarding but there's times where Paul will literally say the same basic thing 5 times in 2 minutes. Oh well, take the good with the bad.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

adjtogo said:


> Now that's funny!! I didn't know there was such a language as "American"!! Where do you live? I've lived all over the world and never met anyone that speaks "American"!! LOL!!


Dude, I was quoting the funny post by jacman, hoping to advance his agenda. Sorry you didn't see the sarcasm in my reply.


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

You smoke some good medicine :thumbsup:


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## jacman (Jun 27, 2010)

adjtogo said:


> Now that's funny!! I didn't know there was such a language as "American"!! Where do you live? I've lived all over the world and never met anyone that speaks "American"!! LOL!!


Bro, if you lived in America, then you've been listening to dudes (and dudettes) talking American. That's what we talk in the land of liberty.


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## jacman (Jun 27, 2010)

BacDoc said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself! Now I know why some of these dudes talk American funny. At least they teach American in Cucamonga schools, they should pass a law that all racers should speak american so we can understand interviews and stuff.


YES! Like the air traffic dudes and the airplane drivers all speak American. 
But i kinda think they teach American at other places not just Cucamonga.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

I'm fine with the traditional old guys, but I'm biased being one. I repeat from earlier comment, Chris Horner knows more than most about race tactics, can explain them clearly and never gets over excited. Time to retire from racing ? Team him up with Jensie? Both could use switching to desk jobs at this point in their careers, if not riding in team cars as directeurs Sportif


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## boogermin (Aug 30, 2012)

T K said:


> Ya, I never got why. You say Frenchman, Englishman etc. I do cringe when I hear some dumbass refer to every Asian as a Chinaman. That is offensive.


I think it's only an issue when people refer to any and all Asians as "Chinamen". Ji Cheng is actually from China, so calling him a Chinaman (albeit a bit cringeworthy) is no more offensive than calling Voeckler a Frenchman.


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## Sides (Sep 2, 2013)

I don't have a problem with Phil and Paul. I would guess it is not easy calling a race, while watching it on TV and listening to race radio from the finish line. They have to fill 4 hours, and that isn't easy. How many ways can they say the same thing. There are people giving them the information, some of which not be correct.

As for calling someone a "Chinaman". Phil and Paul are from England. That is the way they talk, I am half English and listened to it my whole life. They don't suffer from political correctness like we do in the U.S.. Our country has lost its collective sense of humor. What else would you call a man from China? Keep in mind you need to refer to his nationally, not his race. They are not being derogatory.

I enjoy Phil and Paul. They work well together. They just seem to know when to take a break and let their partner take over. Like it or not, they are the voice of bike racing in the U.S..


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## shoemakerpom2010 (Apr 25, 2011)

I grew up in Philadelphia listening to Harry Kalas do the commentary of the Phillies baseball games on the radio. Phil and Pauls commentary brought me back to those times with their kind of relaxing voices especially if I was not watching the race every minute....


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Still enjoy Phil and Paul.  VDV no - admitted 8 season doper, no broadcast skills, doesn't seem very smart. Heard him use the word 'aplomb' awkwardly right after he heard Bob Roll use it correctly - could it get any lower? I don't think it's doing the sport any favors by putting career dopers in the booth.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

bayAreaDude said:


> Still enjoy Phil and Paul. VDV no - admitted 8 season doper, no broadcast skills, doesn't seem very smart. Heard him use the word 'aplomb' awkwardly right after he heard Bob Roll use it correctly - could it get any lower? I don't think it's doing the sport any favors by putting career dopers in the booth.


Then the pickings are going to be pretty slim for commentators for the next 10-20 years.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Don't get me wrong, I am thankful to be able to actually watch cycling on tv (I remember when I paid $3/minute dialing a 900 number to find out that Lance won the 1993 Worlds).
I like all commentating teams with the exception of Universal Sports combo of Steve Schlanger (smug, condescending, and absolutely no cycling knowledge) and Todd Gogulski (please, stop mispronouncing names by trying some bizarre homemade "euro" accent. Get a shirt that fits and consult with someone on proper grooming. You're on tv now.).


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

bayAreaDude said:


> Still enjoy Phil and Paul. VDV no - admitted 8 season doper, no broadcast skills, doesn't seem very smart. Heard him use the word 'aplomb' awkwardly right after he heard Bob Roll use it correctly - could it get any lower? I don't think it's doing the sport any favors by putting career dopers in the booth.


You realize ex dopers like Fignon, Delgado, Zulle, and Rominger are/were all commentating in other countries, right?


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

spade2you said:


> You realize ex dopers like Fignon, Delgado, Zulle, and Rominger are/were all commentating in other countries, right?


It's not like there's actually a shitload of non dopers to pick from. Chris Horner would be a superior commentator; never caught or admitted doping, but looked mighty lame trying to defend Lance before Lance admitted it. Guilt by association


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

David23 said:


> I agree completely. I've seen other commentators less accurate and less entertaining. I'm happy to overlook a few mistakes for their overall knowledge and experience, which, with all due respect, is greater than any of us on this board.


good post, I agree.

Only P^P have the right inflection and convey a sense of importance and urgenecy during their commentary. Phil is especially fun to listen to when calling sprints and major breakaways in the mountains.

Now Phil is getting old, and makes a lot of minor mistakes, all the time. I'ts too bad and a little sad for him. But he is still very good at calling sprints IMHO.

Wouldnot mind if there was a good pair of commentators in cycling to call cycling with better accuracy while having the same emotion and excitement. But I have not seen anyone as good as them to date.

The Eurosport commentators are extremely irritating. Like they do not want to be there and are bored. Some of their accents are horrendous. Kelly is smart, but man he is like on Valium and speaks something other than English.

I get a kick out of Voigt. Super smart, knows all the riders intimately. P&P should call on him more. But his accent is way too weird to be doing full time colour commentary in English imho.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

BCSaltchucker said:


> good post, I agree.
> 
> Only P^P have the right inflection and convey a sense of importance and urgenecy during their commentary. Phil is especially fun to listen to when calling sprints and major breakaways in the mountains.
> 
> ...


This is exactly why Phil and Paul appeal to most american fans: They don't care about facts, they just want to be entertained. 

No wonder Europeans look down on us. They should.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

What is weird is they have Voight, but they only go to him every now and then. Did Voight say, 'hey, I will be doing housework and so on - you can call on me through the race, but really only about 2 minutes per hour. Don't expect me to be chiming in throughout. The dishes have to get washed."


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