# No more benefit to purchasing C'dale?



## h60ace (Jul 1, 2007)

Now that Cannondale has gone the route of the Chinese/Taiwanese (Two separate people and countries), what is the benefit to purchasing a Cannondale. Their tech is on par with the other Asian manufactures, but I always bought their bikes because they were American made. I guess that Trek is the only option remaining?

The transfer of manufacturing from North America to China has been the one of the downfalls of the American economy. What happened to "Change the we can believe in?"

I am glad that my bike, a System 6, is made in America. Any newer bikes that I buy may go to other brands.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

h60ace said:


> I guess that Trek is the only option remaining?


Only the highest -end Trek frames are made in Wisconsin, all other middle and low-end bikes are made in Asia. The only frames made in the US left are the smaller operations/custom builders, such as Moots, Seven, Strong etc...IIRC LiteSpeed is still be made in the US in Tennessee they are the only good sized one left.


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## Trbogolf (Jun 15, 2009)

I thought the '10 MY was still made in US? Then operation will be moved over the course of this year. After that....


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## h60ace (Jul 1, 2007)

I believe that all of the Carbon bikes are now made in Mandarin or Canton fabs. The CAAD are supposed to be moving next year from what I have read.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

h60ace said:


> Now that Cannondale has gone the route of the Chinese/Taiwanese (Two separate people and countries), what is the benefit to purchasing a Cannondale. Their tech is on par with the other Asian manufactures, but I always bought their bikes because they were American made. I guess that Trek is the only option remaining?
> 
> The transfer of manufacturing from North America to China has been the one of the downfalls of the American economy. What happened to "Change the we can believe in?"
> 
> I am glad that my bike, a System 6, is made in America. Any newer bikes that I buy may go to other brands.



This may be one of the most uninformed posts in terms of the "downfall of hte American economy" and to Cannondale specifically. The fact is..... the best carbon in the world comes from Asia. End of story. The transfer of manufacturing had little to do with the "downfall of the American economy". End of story.


Additionally, that is a pretty bold statement to assume that the Super 6 will be just another bike because of where it is produced. Having ridden it I'd say you're incorrect. Moreover, I don't see where you talk about the way the bike is built (different from the current bike) and offer an opnion as to why it may be better or worse. Your assumption (that is unfounded) is that the new bike won't be as good as the current bike simply becuase of manufacturing. That's an attitude that was used to get people to buy American 15 years ago when American manufacturing was higher quality. Those days have gone and now the Asians have the manufacturing down and, by in large, can make more, better and faster than we can. 

Starnut


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

STARNUT said:


> This may be one of the most uninformed posts in terms of the "downfall of hte American economy" and to Cannondale specifically. The fact is..... the best carbon in the world comes from Asia. End of story. The transfer of manufacturing had little to do with the "downfall of the American economy". End of story.
> 
> 
> Starnut


It had everything to do with non-existent environmental law, and piss-cheap labor.


Why pay a unionized skilled employee living wages, when you can export the job to someone who earns less in a day than a McD's employee in the US earns in an hour?

Bikes are a symptom of the problem-nothing is made in the US anymore on a large manufacturing level, apart from perhaps autos.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

It's not an apples to apples argument. You're making the assumption that a "livable" wage here is the same thing there......... and it's not. The cheap(er) labor argument is correct, it is cheaper to build things there but it is a far cry from the sweat shops and 15 hour days and being chained to a bench that you're hinting at.

Purchasing Power Parity....................... Look it up. The Economist has the "Big Mac Index" that does a great job of explaining why makeing the livable wage argument is stupid. The new hip "iPod Index" acheives the same thing from a different perspective; essential vs. non-essiential consumer goods. I suspect in your studies you find that the downfall of the economy had everything to do with unionized labor and what "livable" means in that context.

Starnut


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## CHL (Jun 24, 2005)

STARNUT:

You've seen first hand the 2010 Super Six, which is made in asia. How would you compare the its quality of construction and finish against its US made counter parts (2009 & 2008 Super Sixes)? Have you noticed any manufacturing/production deficiencies in the 2010 Super Six that would give you pause or concern?

I love the ride of my 2008 Super Six but I'm less than pleased with the quality of it's finish. Dust contamination and uneven paint application do not equal quality or care in production to me.

CHL


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## MrTiles (Feb 28, 2005)

I'm still trying to figure out what 330+ million people (US population) are going to do for a job without any iota of mfg. I guess we'll all be serving Big Macs.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

yes I've had significant time on the 2010 super and to answer the questions; better and no. The finish "looked" better than the Supers. For what it's worth, the Synapse Carbons have had better paint than the Supers for a long time. An intersting point here; Cannondale will contiune to do the custom shop team program and have the bikes painted and decaled in Asia........ pretty cool.



And the US hasen't been a manufacturing economy for 20 years. A significant portion (read most) of our GDP is made up small business that don't manufacture anything. Our job, as a country, is to buy things. In production terms, we're a terminal market..... we buy stuff, they make stuff.

Where I think we can make up some ground in manufacturing is anything that is new, emerging, and large (in size and scope). Why not use some of the bail out money to train the idle car makers, to retofit the factories to make.................. wind turbines and solar panels? We have a base but nothing to make 'cause we have such a high standard of living it makes the manufactured products so expensive that only the US or countrys with no manufacturing and lots of money can afford to buy them. Again, refrence the Purchaing Power Parity. 


We buy stuff they make stuff.

Starnut


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## MrTiles (Feb 28, 2005)

I read somewhere about 8 months ago that the US will (has already) experienced a permanent reduction in the standard of living - I'm assuming all tied to banking/real estate/automotive collapse. May see mfg come back sooner than we think b/c it will once again become affordable - labor wise - to produce here.

Starnut mentions that we've only been a "service" or non-producing economy for the last 20 years. We are just now seeing the by-product of that with the current unemployment rate. I'm assuming the jobs in this country were stabilized by speculation in the housing/construction industry until the bubble popped. All just assumptions though.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

My two cents on the issue:

Keep buying Cannondale's road bike line if the DESIGN continues to be cutting-edge and innovative. The engineers and designers and testing will stay in the USA. Look at what they have come up with in the last decade or so: the CAAD technology; System Integration; the BB30 that is becoming industry standard; the fat downtubes and tapered headtubes that the industry is now copying; the primary focus on stiffness and power transfer as well as road feel being the #1 goal, with comfort still an important objective but not the #1 goal -- a lot of manufacturers get it the other way around which means your legs get wrapped around a noodle. (A few weeks ago I rode a brand new Willier Cento -- beautiful, comfortable, light -- and, compared to a 'Dale, noodly!)

Yes, I miss that the HANDMADE IN USA sticker won't adorn future seatstays. But as long as Cannondale is committed to selling the best possible racing bikes on the planet at reasonable prices, I'm still their customer. From the raves of the 2010 SuperSix it seems that commitment continues. Let's see what the 2011 line will bring a year from now.


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## 123prs (Jun 19, 2007)

I have a 2008 Super Six (black) and the finish is quite nice. No paint contamination or uneven paint application. I also have an Asian made 2007 Synapse SL. The finish is also quite nice. I am confident that the 2010 SS will also well made, if and when they hit the stores, which I now hear might be as later as November. Maybe Starnut can gives us an update on prices and availabilt, if such info is now available.


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## kneejerk (Feb 2, 2007)

lifetime warranty on frames?


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

kneejerk said:


> lifetime warranty on frames?


Lifetime warranty is still there. :thumbsup:


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## ping771 (Apr 10, 2006)

h60ace said:


> I believe that all of the Carbon bikes are now made in Mandarin or Canton fabs. The CAAD are supposed to be moving next year from what I have read.


As a Chinese person, can I ask you to differentiate b/t a Mandarin and Cantonese fabrication process, other than the fact that the workers speak a different dialect?:biggrin5:


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## learlove (Jan 18, 2009)

Marc said:


> It had everything to do with non-existent environmental law, and piss-cheap labor.
> 
> 
> Why pay a unionized skilled employee living wages, when you can export the job to someone who earns less in a day than a McD's employee in the US earns in an hour?
> ...


ding ding ding, winner winner chicken dinner.

I see it first hand every time I go to work. I'm an airline pilot for a major US airline. I make half of what I made 10 years ago on the same size aircraft. I currently fly a 100 seat Embraer 190. Ten years ago my airline had the Fokker 100 which was the same aircraft (seat wise). Back then I was paid $89 per flight hour and now on the the 190 my pay is 49 per flight hour. Ouch.

This is directly because of the outsourcing of flying to contract carriers (express or connection) airlines who do the same job with 50 or 70 seat regional jets for less pay.

Another example is Midwest Airlines in MKE. A regional/contract outsource airline bought Midwest airlines returned all of their Boeing 717's to the lessor and is in the process of laying off all the Midwest pilots with 20+ years service and replacing them with 20 something pilots with only a few year exp. who work for half the pay.

I could go on and on, but for the sake of my blood pressure......

I feel for the 200 or so highly skilled welders in bedford PA that will be jobless.


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## ping771 (Apr 10, 2006)

learlove said:


> ding ding ding, winner winner chicken dinner.
> 
> I see it first hand every time I go to work. I'm an airline pilot for a major US airline. I make half of what I made 10 years ago on the same size aircraft. I currently fly a 100 seat Embraer 190. Ten years ago my airline had the Fokker 100 which was the same aircraft (seat wise). Back then I was paid $89 per flight hour and now on the the 190 my pay is 49 per flight hour. Ouch.
> 
> ...


I do too, and for all other skilled American laborers and worksrs who have seen their jobs go overseas. But I think the point of the topic initially was that should people be buying Cannondales once all production goes to Asia, under the premise that Asian manufacturing may be of inferior quality. Obviously the answer to many under that premise would be no, people would not buy Asian made Cannondales. However, several posters here, who may know more about Asian bike manufacturing, have said that the quality in Asia is the same, if not better. Thus, the question becomes, if the quality is the same no matter if made in the US or China, would you buy Cannondale?

The answer to that then is really based on emotion. If you want to avoid Cannondale products made in Asia knowing that they're the same or better quality than American made Cannondales, then you're doing so because you feel a sense of patriotism to this country and empathy for those skilled American workers who used to build Cannondales but no longer do. That's a fine position to take, and as I have said many times before, there are so many Cannondale enthusiasts that feel sad in not seeing "Made in the USA" on new Cannondales. 

There are also those who don't care where Cannondale makes their products as long as the level of quality remains the same. That is an equally fine stance, and I think there's a a majority of consumers that will think that as well. 

But buying a bike is not like buying a car. A car or a tv is pretty much a necessity, and most people will buy a car or tv no matter where it is made from, even it is made somewhere else than where the manufacturer has its headquarters. Buying a bike, especially the kinds that we talk about and ride, is a luxury, so it's more understandable to have more emotional attachment in our decisions. In fact, I would say, as a luxury item, we should not be be criticized for not wanting to buy a bike because it's not made where it used to be made. 

Assuming that Asian made Cannondales are same or better than American made Cannondales, you would not be out of line in saying that you don't want to buy a Cannondale anymore.


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## shorelocal (Jan 12, 2007)

I recently purchased my first C'dale road bike ... an '09 SuperSix HiMod ... and I'm currently in the process of building it up. I haven't owned a carbon road frame before, so no opinion on what's better or worse, but one thing that was important to me was the warranty, of which C'dale has a great one. I feel that "carbon is carbon" so buying a bike that was made in the USA gave me a feeling that I was at least paying for something ... but that something was not necessarily a superior product b/c it was made in the USA. Basically, I could justify the price of carbon a little better b/c I know it costs more to produce in NAmer vs. Asia. I'm guessing the cost savings of producing C'dales in Asia won't be passed down to the consumer.

As for Asian carbon producers, while they may have the majority of the expertise and technology, I believe that QC is the main "pain point" when contracting out production. A lot of junk comes out of the factories just as well as great product ... so, as long as C'dale has good QC practices in place, I doubt the product will suffer.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

hopefully the move to Asia will keep the number of C-dale warranties I'm doing in check. starting to get a little out of hand.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

learlove said:


> ding ding ding, winner winner chicken dinner.
> 
> I see it first hand every time I go to work. I'm an airline pilot for a major US airline. I make half of what I made 10 years ago on the same size aircraft.* I currently fly a 100 seat Embraer 190.* Ten years ago my airline had the Fokker 100 which was the same aircraft (seat wise). Back then I was paid $89 per flight hour and now on the the 190 my pay is 49 per flight hour. Ouch.
> 
> ...


Completely off-topic, but I love the Embraer planes. I used to travel every week, and would fly on an Embraer from IND to Chicago to catch most flights. I hate flying. I REALLY hate flying. But the Embraer had a nice "ride" to it.

As for Cannondale....
I'm sad about their fate. Being owned by Dorel is bad enough, but now they'll be made right next to Schwinns and Pacifics.

I prefer to buy American-Made bikes. That leaves me with 3 options now... Trek Madone (ain't never gonna happen), a custom/boutique frame, or a Rocky Mountain (It IS "American-Made.....North American, that is). Since we're a Rocky dealer, I'm sure you can guess which I'll choose.
We're getting a lot of interest now in Rockys, specifically because they're made in North America. STARNUT can blow it off and make fun of people for it, but there are a LOT of people who don't want to buy a Chinese frame. (I'm one of them) Dorel could have kept Cannondale production here in the States and charged more for the bikes. People would have paid the difference for a USA-Made bike.


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## shorelocal (Jan 12, 2007)

PlatyPius said:


> I prefer to buy American-Made bikes. That leaves me with 3 options now... Trek Madone (ain't never gonna happen), a custom/boutique frame, or a Rocky Mountain (It IS "American-Made.....North American, that is). Since we're a Rocky dealer, I'm sure you can guess which I'll choose.


Are you sure Rockys are made in N.America? I know the bikes read "assembled in Canada" or something like that, but a lot of their frames are now made in Asia (esp. the carbon). I could be wrong but at least my old '04 RM Solo was welded in Canada.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Many Rocky Mountains are Asian made (all the carbon and many metal models too, a bigger percentage of their range every year moves to Asia and they have a higher percentage of Asian made frames than Cannondale will have in 2010)... and Canadian laws gives them the right to put a sticker 'made in Canada' if they just put the finishing touch like decals and such even though the franes can be built in Asia...


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

I am really at a loss as to what you are talking about. The new 2010 Cannondale line looks better than anything produced in the history of Cannondale. If this had come out last year, I would have not bought a Giant. Sure, jobs are going to be lost but nobody asks me where my bike was built. It's about riding and frankly, I am very impressed with what I see. 
That looks more like a Pinarello paint job to me.


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## learlove (Jan 18, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Completely off-topic, but I love the Embraer planes. I used to travel every week, and would fly on an Embraer from IND to Chicago to catch most flights. I hate flying. I REALLY hate flying. But the Embraer had a nice "ride" to it.



yeah well when they replace your highly skill and experienced pilots with many years of flying behind them with 20 something kids who paid for their jobs (a whole other topic) with less than 1000 hours flight time then the ride may turn real ruff if you know what I mean.


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## ridenfish39 (Jun 20, 2008)

If manufacturing and labor costs are lower now because of the move to China then why are the prices not going down? I love my Cannondales but they (and all bikes and components in general) are becoming way overpriced.


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## ping771 (Apr 10, 2006)

ridenfish39 said:


> If manufacturing and labor costs are lower now because of the move to China then why are the prices not going down? I love my Cannondales but they (and all bikes and components in general) are becoming way overpriced.


I believe the answer is that to keep the prices where they are now or slightly higher than last year's, they have to move to Asia, I think Dorel would argue that if the SuperSix or Six were made in the US then the price would be prohibitively expensive.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

ridenfish39 said:


> If manufacturing and labor costs are lower now because of the move to China then why are the prices not going down? I love my Cannondales but they (and all bikes and components in general) are becoming way overpriced.



Because they can. And people are still paying those prices, even though they might cringe.


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## shortyt (Mar 22, 2009)

I still love my Cannondales.


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

I agree that the quality will stay the same or improve....I laugh when people imply that Made in USA quality is higher.... 
I work at a Cannondale dealer, one of the biggest in Canada.... I've seen 2009 Supersixes with decals applied crooked, letters missing, mine has decals applied unevenly on the seatstays and the fork has some white paint sprayed at the dropout (on a black bike?)

I saw a 2010 the other day and it looked flawless.


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## Tachymetres (Apr 18, 2004)

*Some anectdotal evidence on C'Dale quality...*

I've been a big fan of C'dale and recommended them to plenty of folks. I even own a CAAD 7 that's a great ride.

I live not far from C'dales headquarters and have had the opportunity to ride with some of their top people and see prototype bikes long before they hit the market. I ride with many guys that are sponsored by C'Dale.

That said, I am concerned about their quality. Nearly every Super 6, and that's about 6-7, that these guys ride have been cracking or had other significant defects. Now C'Dale has been great working with these guys to make things right but its made me hesitant to recommend them now.

I don't think this is limited to C'Dale either, in my experience. The rush for light weight has outpaced the engineering and development of many frames and unfortunately, we are the test beds for them.


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## 123prs (Jun 19, 2007)

That is a bit disconcerting. What year Super Sixes are you talking about? White frames or black frames? So far, I have not experienced any problems with my black '08. I have heard that the '08s were made of a stronger carbon than the '09s, but I have not seen anything in writing to substantiate this.


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## Tachymetres (Apr 18, 2004)

*All white...*

pretty sure 2009 models.


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## juswannaride (May 13, 2009)

ping771 said:


> I do too, and for all other skilled American laborers and worksrs who have seen their jobs go overseas. But I think the point of the topic initially was that should people be buying Cannondales once all production goes to Asia, under the premise that Asian manufacturing may be of inferior quality. Obviously the answer to many under that premise would be no, people would not buy Asian made Cannondales. However, several posters here, who may know more about Asian bike manufacturing, have said that the quality in Asia is the same, if not better. Thus, the question becomes, if the quality is the same no matter if made in the US or China, would you buy Cannondale?
> 
> The answer to that then is really based on emotion. If you want to avoid Cannondale products made in Asia knowing that they're the same or better quality than American made Cannondales, then you're doing so because you feel a sense of patriotism to this country and empathy for those skilled American workers who used to build Cannondales but no longer do. That's a fine position to take, and as I have said many times before, there are so many Cannondale enthusiasts that feel sad in not seeing "Made in the USA" on new Cannondales.
> 
> ...


In referance to you being Asain I appreciate your comments- some would take offense to hearing the rants of riders not wanting to stick with the manufacturer any longer due to the production going overseas...assuming if its Asian made it is of poor quality. I understand the emotion behind wanting something "made in the usa" And I'm very proud I own one but in all honesty I've enjoyed my bike and will continue to ride a Cdale regardless where it is made as long as the quality remains. No one like the thoughts of more jobs going overseas but I have an opinion on why its happening and its more than just being able to produce the product cheaper but I'm not discussing politics here.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

For me it's not an issue of inferior quality - although some of the frames coming out of China are rather suspect at the moment - but one of supporting American workers. It's also political. I don't support China's politics at all.

In case y'all haven't noticed, we're in a bit of a recession. Yes, that means you have less money to spend, so you're looking for bargains. It also means that how you spend has an even greater than normal effect on who in the US has a job and who doesn't. Buying from UK websites and buying Chinese-made bikes has a much bigger effect on our (US) economy than many people think. Ergo, I spend my money locally when possible, and on American-Made products when feasible. Not to be a flag-waving patriot (which I'm not), but in the interest of keeping my job and keeping the US economy from imploding.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

shorelocal said:


> Are you sure Rockys are made in N.America? I know the bikes read "assembled in Canada" or something like that, but a lot of their frames are now made in Asia (esp. the carbon). I could be wrong but at least my old '04 RM Solo was welded in Canada.


All of the Rocky Mountains we currently have in stock are "Made in Canada". I am sure that the carbon models are probably made overseas. I have no information on that, although I'll be asking next time our Rep is in. The aluminum and steel models though, from what I've read and seen, are all made in Canada. If not, then they've wasted a whole lot of space and money on a manufacturing plant and machinery.


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## juswannaride (May 13, 2009)

I agree its political, and also our own faults for jobs going elsewhere. Over the past several decades debt in all areas of our country has forced inflation, with inflation comes the need for cost in living raises and higher pay. I think if our country had done a better job at handling debt, things would not cost as much nor would we have to paid as much which I believe would kept more jobs here in the US from being sent overseas for cheaper labor costs. Thats just my opinion. I too try to buy locally and usa made when I can, seems I support locally more though. I'll still ride a cannondale weither its made here or there, or until I can learn to make my own frames which will probably never happen lol.


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## gibson00 (Aug 7, 2006)

-dustin said:


> hopefully the move to Asia will keep the number of C-dale warranties I'm doing in check. starting to get a little out of hand.


What frame models were you getting issues with? What were the problems??


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## robertburns3 (Jan 11, 2007)

h60ace said:


> No more benefit to purchasing C'dale?.


The answer is maybe not.

The fact that the Super was sold for only one year before it was replaced by an entirely new Asian-made bike tells me it is an off-the-rack design. I couldn't prove it without looking at many makes side by side, to see if the Cannondale matches someone else’s model, but I am betting there is a near identical bike from another maker out there. Cannondale didn't pay for the R&D of another Super one year after introduction. They bought a bike from someone else.

Buy a CAAD9. They are still made in Bedford for one more year.

FYI- I normally appreciate Starnut’s comments, but this subject causes him to flame others. I guess it is because he sees sales in his shop drying up from people who see no point in buying C’dale anymore.


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## Bad Ronald (May 18, 2009)

The Super Six is a three year old design. 2007, 2008 and 2009 were the model years for Bedford bikes. The 2010 version is entirely a Cannondale design. They don't buy off the shelf bikes. There is still a benefit to buying a Cannondale. The engineers are all still the same. It wasn't the person cutting the carbon or welding the frame that made it ride the way it did. It was the brains behind the Cannondale employees and their intimate knowledge of bicycles that make the bikes what they are.


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## robertburns3 (Jan 11, 2007)

Bad Ronald said:


> The Super Six is a three year old design. 2007, 2008 and 2009 were the model years for Bedford bikes. The 2010 version is entirely a Cannondale design. They don't buy off the shelf bikes. There is still a benefit to buying a Cannondale. The engineers are all still the same. It wasn't the person cutting the carbon or welding the frame that made it ride the way it did. It was the brains behind the Cannondale employees and their intimate knowledge of bicycles that make the bikes what they are.


Oops. I stand corrected, but I think we are both wrong. I realized the first Super Six was a 2008 model year bike. I must have been thinking of the 2009 Hi-Mod. 

Still, I continue to question whether these are really unique bikes, which is the point of the thread. Often C'dale has these bike trickle down to lower models. I am surprised that the System 6 and Super models were scrapped entirely when they went overseas. The differences in the new models are pretty substantial, but now they have attributes that makes them both more like other bands, such as thicker seat stays, carbon rear ends on the System replacement, etc. Either these attributes are better, contradicting C'dales advertising, or they match the manufacturing capabilities of the new builder.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

robertburns3 said:


> FYI- I normally appreciate Starnut’s comments, but this subject causes him to flame others. I guess it is because he sees sales in his shop drying up from people who see no point in buying C’dale anymore.


Actually, it's because I have a Masters and a BS in Economics and did PhD work at the BEA dealing with _exactly_ the issue at hand, but good guess. So it pains me to see "experts" and people go-on-and-on on the interweb when they are just plain wrong and ill-informed. It has nothing to do with sales "drying up". Quite the opposite. My pre-season order with Cannondale for 2010 was 235 bikes. I ordered those up because we have sales data that tells us Cannondale sells better. Moreover, I'll order more, lots more, once we see what's moving quickly. Further, it's not like I only sell Cannondale. We also stock Cervelo, Trek, Orbea, Scott, Kuota, Look, Pina, Guru, and a few others here and there.

My "flaming" comes from my frustration with misinformation and people make gross generalizations and just being............. wrong. Additionally, I refrained from going all Ad Hom on the OP and said that the _statement_ was ill-informed not that _he_ was. I don't know the guy but know the statement.......... and I'll say the same thing about yours.


OT


As to the uniqueness of the bikes.......... you're actually going to tell me/assert the only thing that made the American Supers unique was the country of origin? If the 2010 is a step forward in manufacturing, quality, quality control, engineering, weight, stiffness, and general design............ why is there no reason to buy it? Ligit question. 

Anyone that has said what you've said is basing the decision solely on the manufacturing location. That is unless you've actually ridden a 2010 Super 6. If you haven't then you have knowledge you're not sharing and that creates asymmetry in the information. So.......... I wanna' know why there is no "reason" to buy a Cannondale now? Include manufacturing argument if you wish but also some specifics about why the bike has no "benefit" over anything else or the 07-09 Super.

Starnut


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## shorelocal (Jan 12, 2007)

Tachymetres said:


> That said, I am concerned about their quality. Nearly every Super 6, and that's about 6-7, that these guys ride have been cracking or had other significant defects. Now C'Dale has been great working with these guys to make things right but its made me hesitant to recommend them now.


I recently purchased an '09 SuperSix Hi-Mod and one of the reasons for going with C'dale (in a market flooded with carbon) was their warranty. While it would suck for my new frame to crack and need replacing, I know this is a probability with any carbon, so I'd much rather deal with a company that has a great warranty/warranty department than with one that doesn't.


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## Trbogolf (Jun 15, 2009)

STARNUT said:


> sell Cannondale. We also stock Cervelo, Trek, Orbea, Scott, Kuota, Look, Pina, Guru, and a few others here and there.
> Starnut


I wish the shops around here had your type of selection. All the local shops carry 2 big name brands. Trek and Giant at one shop, Cannondale and Fuji at another, etc. Of course they're all small stores and don't have the capability to keep big inventories of anything. You need it, you probably have to order it.


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## voodooguy (Aug 18, 2007)

Dustoff, huh? Thank you for the work you do to serve our country. My son was in Kandahar he served as a flight medic with Coalition Dustoff. Again, thank you.


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## robertburns3 (Jan 11, 2007)

STARNUT said:


> As to the uniqueness of the bikes.......... you're actually going to tell me/assert the only thing that made the American Supers unique was the country of origin?


No, quite the opposite. 

I am proposing that they are ordering designs similar or identical to others and are losing their originality in design. Like I said, the only way I could prove it is to hold up two bikes next to one another, but already some of the features of C’dale seem to be disappearing. It actually has little to do with country of origin. It is the same thing that would happen if Trek started making Carbon Cannondales. They might start looking more like Madones for ease of manufacture.

Not sure I would brag about how smart you are in economics. Seems like a lot of people with multiple degrees in economics have been seriously screwing this country lately. Economics theories come and go with every recession or depression or political party that is in power. Every politician or interest group has their own economic belief systems. In 15 years your economics degrees with be about as useful as a poly-sci degree as parts of your degree are proven right or wrong.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

.....wow.


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## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

robertburns3, I may be just a n00b here, but you do realize that everything you just said basically amounts to "I'm completely making this up.", don't you?

Asad


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## robertburns3 (Jan 11, 2007)

asad137 said:


> robertburns3, I may be just a n00b here, but you do realize that everything you just said basically amounts to "I'm completely making this up.", don't you?
> 
> Asad



The question was asked if C'dales were unique anymore and my original answer was maybe/maybe not. That is all. Other companies buy off the shelf and it remains to be seen if C'dale will do so. (with the exception of the System 6 replacement, whose design was completely reversed when it went overseas)

I wasn't attempting to say much more than that.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

robertburns3 said:


> No, quite the opposite.
> 
> I am proposing that they are ordering designs similar or identical to others and are losing their originality in design. Like I said, the only way I could prove it is to hold up two bikes next to one another, but already some of the features of C’dale seem to be disappearing. It actually has little to do with country of origin. It is the same thing that would happen if Trek started making Carbon Cannondales. They might start looking more like Madones for ease of manufacture.
> 
> Not sure I would brag about how smart you are in economics. Seems like a lot of people with multiple degrees in economics have been seriously screwing this country lately. Economics theories come and go with every recession or depression or political party that is in power. Every politician or interest group has their own economic belief systems. In 15 years your economics degrees with be about as useful as a poly-sci degree as parts of your degree are proven right or wrong.



I'll tell you right now that Cannondale did not "buy" a frame or design. Cannondale has always had a strong engineering background and that's not going to change. The design and manufacture of the new Super is unique to the Super just like the R3 is to the R3. There was a gap here. The engineers could design it but we couldn't make it. 

As to the Economics comments.......................







.


It's hard to take you seriously when you say that people with Economics degrees have been screwing this country lately. Economic theories do not come and go. My Education spanned two administrations of differing ideas about the economy and I was taught the same thing that taught prior and after I was there. The underpinning theories will not change and, being an Economist who sells bikes, I tend to stay on top of what's going on in my field of study to well............ stay current.

Pointing a finger at a single group of people for the current situation is pretty simple. Time did a pretty informative and tongue-in-cheek about the 20 people to blame for the recession. Not a single one was an Economist and a few didn't even have college degrees. I can tell you it's not the big bad evil math geeks in the Treasury Department or the BEA or the Staff Economists at NOAA.

I was simply giving you the "reason" I "flame" people when this topic comes up. You made a statement that was incorrect.......... and I told you why.

I'm going to take my multiple Economic degrees and try and squeeze some meaning from the rest of next 15 years. :lol:

Starnut


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## mofospinner (Jun 5, 2009)

I know that it is upsetting that they had to move their manufacturing plant to China, but I really don't think that the quality will be sacrificed. I stand behind Cannondale because they stand by me. All of my bikes, Road and Mountain are Cannondale. I bought the new Systemsix when it came out in late 2005, I was having bottom bracket creaks that would not go away even with the best ceramic bearings and warranty replacement si aluminum cranks. Needless to say, just this year, Cannondale replaced my Systemsix with a brand new Supersix including the shop labor! I have a brand new bike thanks to them. I have always stood behind companies that stand behind me. Cannondale will have my business for life.


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## ping771 (Apr 10, 2006)

Is this (or shouldn't it be) a thread about bikes? Why are we dwelling in politics or economics here?


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## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

Companies are in business to make money, not fund government......Cannondale included. As long as it's significantly cheaper to produce overseas they will do so. If we want to see the trend slow down and maybe reverse, then we need to make it profitable for the company to do so. 

It is odd to see a cannondale without the 'made in th usa' decal.


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## EverydayRide (Sep 12, 2008)

mtbykr said:


> Companies are in business to make money, not fund government......Cannondale included. As long as it's significantly cheaper to produce overseas they will do so. If we want to see the trend slow down and maybe reverse, then we need to make it profitable for the company to do so.
> 
> It is odd to see a cannondale without the 'made in th usa' decal.


On a side note, Connecticut or PA is not a cheap place [has never been a cheap place] to manufacture anything.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mtbykr said:


> Companies are in business to make money, not fund government......Cannondale included. *As long as it's significantly cheaper to produce overseas they will do so.* If we want to see the trend slow down and maybe reverse, then we need to make it profitable for the company to do so.
> 
> It is odd to see a cannondale without the 'made in th usa' decal.


It would also be cheaper to make bikes out of cardboard or bolt them together rather than weld them. "Cheaper to make" shouldn't matter at all, as long as the 'cost-to-sale price' ratio remains the same. We get lots of customers in here who would pay more for a USA-Made bike. Those who don't care would be buying Treks anyway.


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## learlove (Jan 18, 2009)

Bad Ronald said:


> It wasn't the person cutting the carbon or welding the frame that made it ride the way it did. It was the brains behind the Cannondale employees and their intimate knowledge of bicycles that make the bikes what they are.


O boy do you have a thing or 2 to learn about bikes.

put it this way:

As a pilot I have 10,000 hours and 12 years as a professional pilot. I've flown piston airliners as a copilot and captain (single pilot ops.), turbo prop aircraft as a copilot and captain and jet airliners as a copilot and captain. I've also instructed in military trainers. I've worked for 4 airlines and have a spotless training and employment history. 

Outside of this I complete several hours of recurrent training every 3 months. 2 times a year I am tested on every aspect aviation knowledge and skill in a checkride that includes a one-on-one exam with an inspector and a demonstration of flying skills in a multi million dollar simulator. Slip up or have a bad day in any part of this process and I could kiss my job and career goodbye.

All pilots at major US Airlines are held to this standard (I said "majors" not outsourced express, connection, jetlink type commuter airlines)

Now bear with me Ron;

with that said, 

Say we allow foreign airlines to start flying around the US or continue to outsource mainline major airline flying to contract airlines. Do you have any idea what the average exp. level is for an Indian or China based airline is? How much they spend or don't spend training and recurrent training. 

So who do you want in the cockpit when sh!t hits the fan and your riding in the back? 

Sully or Kim Suc Dow/Habib Kushtar?


I'll take the cannondale welded by the highly skilled, trained and experienced US welder in PA building the bike I'm going to race down a mountain at 45mph or muscle in mass pack sprint after a 30 lap crit.


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## Bad Ronald (May 18, 2009)

The best part about your response is that I work for a bike company. I bet you could probably even guess which one. Learn about bikes...Lets stick to what we know best. Keep flying those planes and I'll keep making the best bikes in the world and the world will still be a great place.


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## learlove (Jan 18, 2009)

Bad Ronald said:


> The best part about your response is that I work for a bike company. I bet you could probably even guess which one. Learn about bikes...Lets stick to what we know best. Keep flying those planes and I'll keep making the best bikes in the world and the world will still be a great place.


WOW, you must be a joy to work with then. You straight up disrespect your fellow employees by saying, _"It wasn't the person cutting the carbon or welding the frame that made it ride the way it did"_. I'd bet you wouldn't have the balls to walk out on the production room floor and say that in person. 

Your comment leads me to believe your an engineer or management type. BFD, so am I (mechanical engineer). In a previous career I was an engineer. I've designed UAV's, airfoils and heat sinks. I never once as an engineer (or any other job) discounted the contribution my fellow worker above or below me (although my faith in some airline upper management is very questionable but that is a whole other topic). 

If I applied your comment/attitude to my job then the highly skilled mechanic maintaining my aircraft and host of other employees that make the aircraft move we would never get anywhere. As an airline Captain, my job is about 40% flying and 60% people management skill. Your probably the same guy I hear flight attendants complain about. The one d-bag on every full flight that thinks the flight attendant exists to serve him. Maybe that is a PART of his/her job but they are really there to save your stupid a$$ in an emergency. 

Anyway, Cannondale bike the "best in the world". Good yes, especially for crit racing, but best in the world not even close. Have you ever seen/road the work of Steelman, Sachs, Pegoretti, Merckx (his highly skilled workers), Strong, Hoovanian ect.? I've had 4 cannondales since 1988 (won races on 2 of them). An 88 crit, 1990 3.0 (your company gave it to me for free) and now 2 caad9's. When it come to replacing my caad9's then I'll look to Strong or Harry ect. to build them. NOT YOU.

Like they say, there is always an a$$hole in every group and I guess your it then Ron.


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## Bad Ronald (May 18, 2009)

I shouldn't dignify this with a response however, I still stand behind what I said. I never said the welders didn't do a good job or that the robot cutting the carbon didn't do it the same every single time. What I said was that the RIDE is determined by the people engineering the bike. The welder just does what he is told: weld the bike. To relate it to your field, I am sure it is not the guy pop riveting the wing together that determines how well the plane flies but the engineering that went into it. 

Oh and flight attendants love me. I get on a plane and I fall asleep before it takes off and I wake up just before it lands  I don't think it gets any better than that does it? 

As for the people in Bedford, I am good friends with a lot of them. It wasn't my choice to end production down there, and I tell them that every time I see them. I am sure they would agree that they do not determine the RIDE of the bike but sure do the best they can to make it a lasting and quality product. 

You need to chill out brother. Name calling on the internet is pretty tiring at this point. It aint 1997 anymore!


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

Learlove it would appear that a majority of your argument is predicated on the belief that the manufacturing in Bedford is of higher quality that where ever the new bikes are made. 

Starnut


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## EverydayRide (Sep 12, 2008)

Bad Ronald said:


> I shouldn't dignify this with a response however, I still stand behind what I said.


So, a welder has nothing to do with how a bike will ride? In your opinion they just hold a rod and weld like, "...they're told to do." 

You've reduced the artisan and his trade of welding at the level of lawn mower guy and Jake the mystery shopper. 

Talk about Team Work.

Bravo.


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## atimido (Jun 17, 2009)

h60ace said:


> Now that Cannondale has gone the route of the Chinese/Taiwanese (Two separate people and countries), what is the benefit to purchasing a Cannondale. Their tech is on par with the other Asian manufactures, but I always bought their bikes because they were American made. I guess that Trek is the only option remaining?
> 
> The transfer of manufacturing from North America to China has been the one of the downfalls of the American economy. What happened to "Change the we can believe in?"
> 
> I am glad that my bike, a System 6, is made in America. Any newer bikes that I buy may go to other brands.


Some Cannondale bikes are still "Handmade in the USA." The lower end bikes are and will be made in Taiwan. This holds true with Trek bikes as well; the top end bikes are made here in the U.S.A., while their lower end bikes are made in Taiwan.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

atimido said:


> *Some Cannondale bikes are still "Handmade in the USA."* The lower end bikes are and will be made in Taiwan. This holds true with Trek bikes as well; the top end bikes are made here in the U.S.A., while their lower end bikes are made in Taiwan.


Not according to our Cannondale rep....


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## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Not according to our Cannondale rep....


According to the sticker on the 2010 CAAD9's, they are still made in the USA.

Asad


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

asad137 said:


> According to the sticker on the 2010 CAAD9's, they are still made in the USA.
> 
> Asad



Whatever "Made In ______" actually means...


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

True caad 9 is still made here but that won't last long according to the rep they will move caad 9 to Far East starting next year.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Trbogolf said:


> I thought the '10 MY was still made in US? Then operation will be moved over the course of this year. After that....


I picked up my 2010 Six today and was really looking forward to seeing the familiar "Handmade in USA" message on the frame but it's not there


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## snwbdrhoon (Oct 15, 2002)

learlove said:


> O boy do you have a thing or 2 to learn about bikes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


coming late to the party, this comment made me "gasp." are you insinuating that "Americans" can't be named anything other than an "American"-sounding name like "Sullivan?" 

as someone born and raised here but of non-caucasian lineage, i'm taken aback.

Oh and according to a recent study:
_
Safety records and levels of service vary tremendously, from airline to airline. According to Skytrax, the best airlines in the world (with 5 star ratings) are as follows:

1.Asiana Airlines, 2.Cathay Pacific Airways, 3.Kingfisher Airlines, 4.Malaysia Airlines, 5.Qatar Airways, 6.Singapore Airlines._

Probably not a lot of "Sully"s piloting Qatar Airways


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

snwbdrhoon said:


> coming late to the party, this comment made me "gasp." are you insinuating that "Americans" can't be named anything other than an "American"-sounding name like "Sullivan?"
> 
> as someone born and raised here but of non-caucasian lineage, i'm taken aback.
> 
> ...




I agree with you. This post is very racist and offensive.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Some bike shop owners might not be heart broken to see their bikes being shipped off to China where they cost less to build, but in my experience those are some of the same who are most outspoken when it comes to cheaper internet or bigger box (remember when Costco carried Cannondale?) retailers compete against them.

It may not be an exact apples to apples comparison.. but I'm afraid quality local bike shops are going the way of the american made bicycle.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

What really surprises me about this thread is in the end who cares where it is made as long as the assumption of performance the buyer has, is confirmed by the ride. With the exception of very high end military, and electronic (computer processors) manufacturing the US has been outpaced by foreign factories for some time. The end result is not "their" stuff is better than "ours" It simply is, if their production capacity is greater than "ours", "their" production experience is greater than "ours". It does factor down to the monkey turning the wrench, but the theory of repetition still applies. The more you do it, the better you are at it.
There were two factors which attributed to the purchase of my 08 Super 6 and they were my assumption of performance was exceeded, and the frame has a lifetime warranty. When it is time I will test another C'Dale if those two standards are met I will purchase one no matter where it is made. I'll test other bikes as well, but if the assumption of performance is close and there is only a 1 or 2 year warranty my money will go to the company who stands behind their frames for a lifetime not just a year, no matter where it is made.
The economics of production is simple. Built the best product you can, stand behind it, don't flood the market with it, and your company will be a success. The politics of international production and trade can suck it as far as I'm concerned.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SicBith said:


> What really surprises me about this thread is in the end who cares where it is made as long as the assumption of performance the buyer has, is confirmed by the ride. With the exception of very high end military, and electronic (computer processors) manufacturing the US has been outpaced by foreign factories for some time. The end result is not "their" stuff is better than "ours" It simply is, if their production capacity is greater than "ours", "their" production experience is greater than "ours". It does factor down to the monkey turning the wrench, but the theory of repetition still applies. The more you do it, the better you are at it.
> There were two factors which attributed to the purchase of my 08 Super 6 and they were my assumption of performance was exceeded, and the frame has a lifetime warranty. When it is time I will test another C'Dale if those two standards are met I will purchase one no matter where it is made. I'll test other bikes as well, but if the assumption of performance is close and there is only a 1 or 2 year warranty my money will go to the company who stands behind their frames for a lifetime not just a year, no matter where it is made.
> The economics of production is simple. Built the best product you can, stand behind it, don't flood the market with it, and your company will be a success. The politics of international production and trade can suck it as far as I'm concerned.


If Bob builds bikes and works for a US company, Bob gets paid. Assume Bob is a cyclist, he spends some of that money at a bike shop. The bike shop makes money, and spends some of that money a) on taxes, b) on local things like sponsorships, donations to schools/SIGs, etc., pays wages to employees...

If Bob (and all of the other Bobs who work in manufacturing in US) no longer have jobs due to all of the manufacturing going overseas, then there are no Bobs to spend money at the bike shop, there's not enough money left after expenses at the bike shop to donate or sponsor anyone, and there likely isn't enough business or money to pay Wrench, who then doesn't have a job, etc etc etc.

Sure, there's still Frank, who works in design/IT/whatever, but what about Bob?

Maybe you haven't noticed....we have high unemployment at the moment. Bike shops are hurting. Manufacturing is hurting. Bikes are getting built in China for next to nothing. Have YOU seen the price of bikes coming down? 

If there was a company still making bikes in the US (OTHER than Trek), I'd have them in my store. I want to keep Bob working.


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## mpapet (Dec 2, 2009)

A frame being made in another country only temporarily harms the domestic economy. What is happening in these cases is most of the value is still captured by the brand name on the frame. I would argue the permanent productivity decline begins when domestic workers are not developing the manufacturing techniques, basic technology that go into making the frame. A simple example is set up production somewhere else in the world, but do the tooling for the line in the U.S.

Remember this is a multi-faceted problem.
Nationalization: An old example of this is when the U.S. lost their lead on the development of optics. The Japanese government sponsored the R&D. No American company could possibly fund/sustain basic R&D at the Japanese rate. Buh-bye! Depending on your world view, nationalizing R&D could be good or bad. The U.S. passively supports applied R&D with little support for basic R&D. Nothing like the degree most nations do.

Currency: Most of the manufacturing countries enact policies that keep their currencies depressed relative to developed nations. The U.S. doesn't protect their workforce from currency manipulation. Depending on your political persuasion, this is either good or bad. 

I don't know that the U.S. will become a cheaper place to manufacture anything. It's not a domestic policy. The domestic policy is to borrow. The 'repayment' is still in the form of investment in American assets. ex. real estate, sports teams.

Also, it's worth mentioning Asian cultures don't reward the stubborn individuality that's required to create new wealth the way it's supported in the U.S. An obvious example is Google. Asian cultures are the best fast-followers. But that's not that valuable. Look at Japan as an example. The bloom fell off that rose 10+ years ago.


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

I don't know that the U.S. will become a cheaper place to manufacture anything. 

The cost of manufacture in US is way higher than Asia do the math and you see why Cannondale is moving to Asia. Other thing is we don't invest in carbon production equipments and Taiwan is a major player for most carbon production frame in the world. Bottom line is we are not competitive in this arena it would be cheaper to import the frame compare to do our own manufacturing in US.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Online shops are usually cheaper than traditional shops, too... and sell the same quality parts. Some have excellent support and customer service. Again, a lot of those bike shop employees that don't see any problems with their bikes moving to cheaper overseas plants seem to have a lot against losing business online dealers. Sort of ironic.


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## jjmstang (May 8, 2009)

The reason the U.S. will never be a major player in the manufacturing world again is due to the laziness of the american worker. Take the auto industry for example, a line worker doing the same exact thing ( putting lug nuts on for example) day in and day out making 60,000 plus a year for something a trained monkey can do. Plus they WERE getting paid also when they were laid off. Free health insurance from cradle to grave. Our teachers ( educational sector ) don't even get that kind of treatment and they are training our future. So you can see why the auto industry has failed and will continue too if they don't change thier work model.
Now as far as Trek being a "American " company, I think that is a bunch of BS. They make a couple of products here and the rest are made in ..guess where .... Asia. I'm willing to bet that 90+% of thier profits are from the Asia made products and not from the US made products. To me if you want to be a " American" company your US made products should account for the majority of your profits. Trek doesn't cut it.
I could rant and rant about this. It all comes down to the lazy ass americans wanting to get paid the big bucks for doing nothing more than what a monkey could do.They want to start at the top and are unwilling to do the hard grunt work at the bottom and climb thier way up the ladder. Just look at our obesity rate.Over 60% of the lazy american public are obese. That spells one thing..THE ARE FREAKIN LAZY. It spills over into all other faccets of the american way also.

Rant over.


-John
An American but sometimes I hate to admit it.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> If Bob builds bikes and works for a US company, Bob gets paid. Assume Bob is a cyclist, he spends some of that money at a bike shop. The bike shop makes money, and spends some of that money a) on taxes, b) on local things like sponsorships, donations to schools/SIGs, etc., pays wages to employees...
> 
> If Bob (and all of the other Bobs who work in manufacturing in US) no longer have jobs due to all of the manufacturing going overseas, then there are no Bobs to spend money at the bike shop, there's not enough money left after expenses at the bike shop to donate or sponsor anyone, and there likely isn't enough business or money to pay Wrench, who then doesn't have a job, etc etc etc.
> 
> ...


Bob can either do it better than the next guy (which will ensure he keeps his job), or educate himself to be better at his job, or excel in another job. Either way Bob if he is a cyclist keeps buying bikes. Frank also supports his local bike shop, but being IT savy the bike shop had better offer better service, and a inviting atmosphere or Frank will buy his stuff online. As bikes companies are seeing better margins in production those savings will either be used for R&D, Sponsorships, Marketing, or hopefully passed down to the bike shops by increased retail margin. Either way the money is re-invested in the brand by marketing (supporting retail) or increased margin to the dealer (I know the brand I'm work for is doing this. No price increase for next year, and in some models a price decrease)
There are a number of companies making bikes in the US. Put some Sevens, IF, Litespeed, Potts, or any number of local builders into your shop. If production in the US is important to you and your shop. Stand behind Bob by voting with your POs. Don't buy brands or models by brands which are produced overseas for your shop. Be the change you want to see in the world. I think that's what the bumper sticker said.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SicBith said:


> Bob can either do it better than the next guy (which will ensure he keeps his job), or educate himself to be better at his job, or excel in another job. Either way Bob if he is a cyclist keeps buying bikes. Frank also supports his local bike shop, but being IT savy the bike shop had better offer better service, and a inviting atmosphere or Frank will buy his stuff online. As bikes companies are seeing better margins in production those savings will either be used for R&D, Sponsorships, Marketing, or hopefully passed down to the bike shops by increased retail margin. Either way the money is re-invested in the brand by marketing (supporting retail) or increased margin to the dealer (I know the brand I'm work for is doing this. No price increase for next year, and in some models a price decrease)
> There are a number of companies making bikes in the US. Put some Sevens, IF, Litespeed, Potts, or any number of local builders into your shop. If production in the US is important to you and your shop. Stand behind Bob by voting with your POs. Don't buy brands or models by brands which are produced overseas for your shop. Be the change you want to see in the world. I think that's what the bumper sticker said.


Please tell me who you work for so I can maybe hook up with a bike company that's decreasing prices. Most of the industry has been increasing. I remember in 2008, the Masi Alare went from $770 retail to $930 within a year. Components stayed the same, too.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> Please tell me who you work for so I can maybe hook up with a bike company that's decreasing prices. Most of the industry has been increasing. I remember in 2008, the Masi Alare went from $770 retail to $930 within a year. Components stayed the same, too.


I'm a sales rep for a ski company. 

From my understanding components are the big issue with bike production. It is the cost of the grouppos which really distance the retail price, and retail margin in high end bikes. One reason why a friend who owns a bike shop is stocking more mid-price point component bikes which is some cases use the same frame just lower to mid range components, and wheels. He's margins increase slightly, and he also sells more bikes. A carbon frame with a 1 as the first number sells better than one with a 2.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

You cannot beat Cannondale tech. From my experience with a taiwanese built carbon frame, I would not worry about build quality.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SicBith said:


> I'm a sales rep for a ski company.
> 
> From my understanding components are the big issue with bike production. It is the cost of the grouppos which really distance the retail price, and retail margin in high end bikes. One reason why a friend who owns a bike shop is stocking more mid-price point component bikes which is some cases use the same frame just lower to mid range components, and wheels. He's margins increase slightly, and he also sells more bikes. *A carbon frame with a 1 as the first number sells better than one with a 2.*


Indeed. And since I don't use "$1999.99" as a price - all of my prices are nice round numbers - any bikes I sell under $2000 really ARE under $2000. I'm sure the ski industry is probably similar to the bike industry; there's an MSRP and then there's a minimum retail price. I try to always be closer to the minimum.

I know a lot of people will rag on Tiagra, but you really can't beat it for the price. A Scott CR-1 Comp with Tiagra/105 for $1800 is an awesome bike for the money. 

Cannondales were an excellent bike for the money, too. A little less so now that they're made by Fuji (Ideal). It wouldn't stop me from carrying them in my store, though.

It amused me when I found out that Scott USA is headed by Scott Montgomery. And there's the connection between Cannondale and Scott in my ramblings.


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## snwbdrhoon (Oct 15, 2002)

thechriswebb said:


> I agree with you. This post is very racist and offensive.


and yes, i get that the "Sully" in discussion was the famed pilot with the Hudson River landing, but this still comes off as very offensive.

back to bikes!


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## renotree (Oct 7, 2009)

I too have just picked up my 2010 Supersix 3, although it is the entry model into the Supersix world the ride has completely blown me away, not to mention it is without doubt the best looking machine out there, if this is the quality of Asian build i'm all for it, i really can't get the smile of my face whenever i look at it and when i ride it it is completely awesome!!!


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## Lil Dale (Feb 19, 2009)

Cannondale moving production to Asia hasn't stopped me from ordering 2 Hi-Mod Super Six frames.


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## renotree (Oct 7, 2009)

*Just got my new supersix home and it aint perfect!*

collected my new supersix 3 the other day and when i got it home i realised the supersix decal on the chainstay wasn't put on correctly, gutted! My LBS has contacted Cannondale and it looks like it'll have to be a new frame. It's hard to believe this wasn't picked up way further back on the production line! On a positive note the bike is utterly fantastic and the difference to my old bike is unbelievable, so smooth and the new Ultegra is fantastic, and it's such a beautiful bike... here's a pic, check out the offending decal!


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## Lil Dale (Feb 19, 2009)

If it was a Hi-Mod they would've paid more attention, a regular Super Six not so much


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Ask for a big discount instead of returing the frame.


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## CHL (Jun 24, 2005)

And I thought this only occured to my girlfriend. Ordered a new CAAD4 a long time ago and the Cannondale american flag logo at the top tube, near the head tube was put upside down and was torn in half. 
You would think that the person who applied the decal would affect repairs right away instead of letting it go to Clear coating. Also, why didn't the painting department return it for re-decal. Anyways, the LBS made it right. She still has the CAAD4. I swear, I would sooner get the boot than her prized Super Six or CAAD4.:mad2: 

CHL


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## renotree (Oct 7, 2009)

Regardless if it's a "high mod" or not Lil Dale it's hardly a cheap bike where nobody cares if things aren't quite right, i hope it isn't a sign of things to come from a fantastic bicycle manufacturer who have moved their production recently! When the bike shop gets back to me i might enquire about a deduction or maybe try and get a deal on the far superior "high mod"


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

haha if anything I bet there are fewewer mistakes like that now.... at the shop I work at we had about 5 supersixes on the floor in 2009... every single one had a doticable misapplied or damaged decal. I ordered mine, and when it arrived I was glad that the only flaws were a sligh fold in one decal and what looks to be a slight accumulation of white paint spray on he bottom of one of the fork legs  ....relatively minor, but this was the closest to 'perfect' in Cannondale terms for '09 IMHO!


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## usa777 (Jul 5, 2008)

*Rei*

I believe Cannondale opening more REI stores is going to hurt them. REI only carries a few models. In our area REI is getting ready to be a Cannondale dealer (our local IBD closed). I spoke with one dealer who says he will not touch Cannondale. He is not interested in carry a bike line that is in REI or Performance. He says he will stick with Trek, Specialized or Giant. They are not in the chain stores. Most of the other IBD in the area are happy with the brands they have.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

I had assumed that Cannondale would work out the kinks and start making good quality bikes again. Now I'm not sure. Aluminum Cannondales are being built by Ideal (aka: Fuji). I've seen Fuji's welds, and they're crap. Not to mention they'll basically be BikesDirect bikes now with Cannondale stickers on them.

I think I'm going to pass on carrying Cannondale at my shop.


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## hielovelo (Apr 11, 2009)

renotree said:


> collected my new supersix 3 the other day and when i got it home i realised the supersix decal on the chainstay wasn't put on correctly, gutted! My LBS has contacted Cannondale and it looks like it'll have to be a new frame. It's hard to believe this wasn't picked up way further back on the production line! On a positive note the bike is utterly fantastic and the difference to my old bike is unbelievable, so smooth and the new Ultegra is fantastic, and it's such a beautiful bike... here's a pic, check out the offending decal!


Just out of interest, what does that bike weigh Reno. I assume it's a stock Super3. Very nice looking...... apart from the sticker ( not that I would have noticed if you didn't point it out )

Cheers :thumbsup:


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

All due respect, especially since I am a biased responder, but, really? 

A brand new frame, because of a crooked decal?

I can't even tell from the pic what is wrong there. Couldn't you just get a teensy weensy credit and ride your awesome bike? 

IMHO, if a bike is to be ridden and enjoyed, not wall art, little imperfections don't diminish a thing.



renotree said:


> collected my new supersix 3 the other day and when i got it home i realised the supersix decal on the chainstay wasn't put on correctly, gutted! My LBS has contacted Cannondale and it looks like it'll have to be a new frame...


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

PlatyPius said:


> I had assumed that Cannondale would work out the kinks and start making good quality bikes again. Now I'm not sure. Aluminum Cannondales are being built by Ideal (aka: Fuji). I've seen Fuji's welds, and they're crap. Not to mention they'll basically be BikesDirect bikes now with Cannondale stickers on them.
> 
> I think I'm going to pass on carrying Cannondale at my shop.



yeah, I was going to say, with the exception of the CAAD9's I wasn't impressed when the new Aluminum low-end Cannondale hardtail MTBs started showing up at my shop.... compared to previous models the frames look like generic junk.


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## renotree (Oct 7, 2009)

it weighed 7.25kg without pedals in size 52cm ,it's an awesome ride, and it's not me that's demanding a new frame but at the end of the day i'd be prepared to accept a discount! And i'm riding the hell out it anyway till the bike shop and Cannondale sort it out! happy days


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

I really don't see the hype.

I got my girlfriend a CAAD8 last night. I compared it to my "American made" Six13. All I can really see is that the welds on the Six13 are more grinded down, Cannondale graphics look a bit different.

If their quality control is up to par...I don't see all why it can't be a quality ride.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> All of the Rocky Mountains we currently have in stock are "Made in Canada". I am sure that the carbon models are probably made overseas. I have no information on that, although I'll be asking next time our Rep is in. The aluminum and steel models though, from what I've read and seen, are all made in Canada. If not, then they've wasted a whole lot of space and money on a manufacturing plant and machinery.



Your rep will not know; sorry

But I know the owner very well and if you like I'll ask him. {I used to import in to USA more bikes from him than anyone else}

For purpose of duty the standard to come in from Canada duty free is 50% North American content - I am sure zero Rocky Mountains bikes entry USA duty free.

This has gotten confused by companies such as old Cannondale company using terms like "Made in USA' when they should not. Cannonadle bikes were never "Made in USA" - there is a legal definition of percent of content to meet that statement; Cannondale never reached that on a complete bike. {by the way, last time I looked standard was 98% and congress was trying to get it dropped to 50% - but could not due to political pressure}

I like free markets powered by consumers who get to pick whatever they think is the best deal for them. If someone feels a Rocky has best total value package for them; they should go for it.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

MrTiles said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what 330+ million people (US population) are going to do for a job without any iota of mfg. I guess we'll all be serving Big Macs.



There are many areas where the USA leads the world in ideas and production. Do not count the USA out over socks, shoes, cell phones or bikes being made in Asia.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

mtbykr said:


> Companies are in business to make money, not fund government......Cannondale included. As long as it's significantly cheaper to produce overseas they will do so. If we want to see the trend slow down and maybe reverse, then we need to make it profitable for the company to do so.
> 
> It is odd to see a cannondale without the 'made in th usa' decal.



The sticker was never actually correct anyway. This is a small industry so noone put up a stink. But "Made in USA" has a legal meaning; I know of no Cannondale bikes that met the test. 

Not a big deal to me; just saying -- do not be too upset over a missing sticker that was wrong to start with.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> I had assumed that Cannondale would work out the kinks and start making good quality bikes again. Now I'm not sure. Aluminum Cannondales are being built by Ideal (aka: Fuji). I've seen Fuji's welds, and they're crap. Not to mention they'll basically be BikesDirect bikes now with Cannondale stickers on them.
> 
> I think I'm going to pass on carrying Cannondale at my shop.



You need more imformation before making statements like "I've seen Fuji's welds, and they're crap". Ideal builds bikes for lots of companies: Fuji is just one brand name that goes on bikes built at Ideal. Many have frames built by Kinesis, Sunrise, Maxway, ADK, etc -- these frame companies also build frames for about everyone else. Ideal builds some frames themselves; but certainly not most.

Are you saying if Maxway builds a frame and sends it to Merida and they stick a Surly decal on it; the welds are nice and if Maxway builds a frame and sends it to Ideal and they stick a Fuji decal on it; the welds are poor? Really?

If you saw a Fuji with poor welds [which I really never see myself] - did you know which frame factory made it? How? And did you know which other brands that frame factory builds for?

Some of the nicest bikes you have seen were probably 'built' at Ideal - but you just did not know it. This is how the industry works today; like it or not. I like it as the tend in quality has been up and the tend in value has been up; and cyclists have benefited overall from the improvements we have all seen over the last 20 or 30 years.


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## Briko (Jun 17, 2009)

Starnut wrote "The fact is..... the best carbon in the world comes from Asia."

Sorry...Gonna have to call bullshit on this... The only reason its good is its CHEAP to produce. NO EPA, Child Labor, Government Controled Ecomomy and so on...The only reason these companies are makeing their products over there is because of cost!!! They can pay a kid $1 a week, don't have to worry about all the regulations and so on...I do not think you will see much in a loss of quality. I have an 08 Super Six and frankly I was Dissapointed in the quality. I had to remove tons of paint and resin from the dropouts...I have an 09 Trek 9.9ssl hardtail. The finished product is much nicer...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> You need more imformation before making statements like "I've seen Fuji's welds, and they're crap". Ideal builds bikes for lots of companies: Fuji is just one brand name that goes on bikes built at Ideal. Many have frames built by Kinesis, Sunrise, Maxway, ADK, etc -- these frame companies also build frames for about everyone else. Ideal builds some frames themselves; but certainly not most.
> 
> Are you saying if Maxway builds a frame and sends it to Merida and they stick a Surly decal on it; the welds are nice and if Maxway builds a frame and sends it to Ideal and they stick a Fuji decal on it; the welds are poor? Really?
> 
> ...


Really?

Ideal is building steel Colnagos? Shamrock Fluid Druids? Litespeed Archons? Rocky Mountain Solos?

Huh! I never would have guessed....


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

Briko said:


> Starnut wrote "The fact is..... the best carbon in the world comes from Asia."
> 
> Sorry...Gonna have to call bullshit on this... The only reason its good is its CHEAP to produce. NO EPA, Child Labor, Government Controled Ecomomy and so on...The only reason these companies are makeing their products over there is because of cost!!! They can pay a kid $1 a week, don't have to worry about all the regulations and so on...I do not think you will see much in a loss of quality. I have an 08 Super Six and frankly I was Dissapointed in the quality. I had to remove tons of paint and resin from the dropouts...I have an 09 Trek 9.9ssl hardtail. The finished product is much nicer...


If you so concerned about product quality made in Asia then don't buy a Cannondale, we knew the main reason is cost and that is why all MFG moved their production there at the first place. Are you saying your Trek paint job is better than Cannondale? I doubt it.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

Briko said:


> Starnut wrote "The fact is..... the best carbon in the world comes from Asia."
> 
> Sorry...Gonna have to call bullshit on this... The only reason its good is its CHEAP to produce. NO EPA, Child Labor, Government Controled Ecomomy and so on...The only reason these companies are makeing their products over there is because of cost!!! They can pay a kid $1 a week, don't have to worry about all the regulations and so on...I do not think you will see much in a loss of quality. I have an 08 Super Six and frankly I was Dissapointed in the quality. I had to remove tons of paint and resin from the dropouts...I have an 09 Trek 9.9ssl hardtail. The finished product is much nicer...












So you' re telling me that the quality is no better and that you're disappointed with the paint quality on your american made Super 6? 

Don't be confused and assume I said that price equates equally to quality. That's not what I said. I said they make/manufacture the best quality carbon frames. I'll stand by that. What I won't stand buy is you assumption that I said "they make the best quality because it's cheap". Price be damned, they make the best mass production carbon frames.

Why do people always go to the sweat shop argument when Asian manufacturing comes up? The fact is, nothing you mentioned is happening in those factories. They are paying those workers a liveable wage for their relative economic situation. Look it up, *Purchasing Power Parity*. Making a $1 in china is not like making a $1 in the US. The ole' sweat shop argument is _so_ 1990 and continual use shows how short sighted, narrow minded, and uninformed its supports are. Further, I wouldn't be holding the US up against working conditions and environmental regulations that your holding the rest of the world accountable for. We're not exactly a model for that either. 

Your argument is the SSDD echoed by nationalists and populists. Giant evil corps, stopping at nothing to take advantage of everyone and everything in pursuit of profit. Vilify them under the auspice of "fair" labor and trade and you have the makings for a Southpark episode. Truth be told, the majority of Asian manufacturing puts the US to shame in terms of effectiveness, efficency, consistency, speed, and quality.

It's not cost. The reason is they just make better frames and carbon stuff in general. They are better with carbon. Fishing poles, airplane wings, and bicycles. They do it better on a large scale. Why is it that Cannondale was never able to produce a sub 1000 gram carbon frame in the US? It's not because they couldn't design it, it's because they couldn't build it. 

They build stuff, we buy stuff. Simple economics 101 (actually 2401, a class I used to teach) tells of the 3 production inputs: land; labor; and capital. Asia has a lot of one and we have a lot of the other. They build stuff, we buy stuff.

Are you ready to eat your words and tell me you'd ride a $4500 dollar carbon frame that weighs 1100 grams because it's made in the US? 

As for Trek. I worked at a Trek dealer and we had more issues (over a 2 year period) with paint on those damn things than just about any other manufacturer other than De Rosa. There was constantly overspray, incorrect masking, masking left on (under the clear coat), color difference within one color on the same frame (batch change?), logo decals applied crooked, and fit issues with BBs and forks due to clearcoat over spray. American manufacturing at it's best.

Starnut


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## Bad Ronald (May 18, 2009)

Hopefully some day I can be as witty as Starnut.

Seriously though, the southpark reference is pretty genius.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Ha Ha, Briko's post is almost as funny as the guy on mtbr.com who, to stick it to Cannondale for turning to Asian manufacturing, replaced his US made Cannondale... with an asian made Scott! 

I wouldn't use Trek as an exemple for manufacturing quality, they have among the worst manufacturing quality, finish, paint, welds, tolerances of the industry...


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## Briko (Jun 17, 2009)

Scott??? No I think I'll just go to Wal-Mart and pick up a NEXT... Ah ha ha... I'm just saying its all about who can do it cheaper. Thats why all these companies move across to the pacific. I love my Canondales!!! And would not trade em for anything. The USA made treks are nice, very nice...I understand what your saying about the Non US manufactured Treks...StarNut is right...The Asians can MASS PRODUCE the best quality Carbon Frames in the world. It just sucks that the US has lost all its manufacturing status.


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