# Prestige Ranking for Classic Italian/European Bike Manufacturers



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

OK - so this thread topic is a potential minefield. Does a "prestige" ranking exist amongst the various classic framemaking brands?

I'm not trying to get an elitist thread going, this is purely from a want-to-know from someone not-that-familiar-with-this stand point. Off the top of my head I only know a few Italian makes: Colnago, Cinelli, Bianchi, Ciocc and Pinarello and a few other non-Italian (?) makes like Peugeot, Lotus (do they make bikes?), ONCE (??), and LOOK. 

Just wondering if in the industry/hobby/sport, there is some perceived rankings or tiers in rankings. Like WRT cars, most would agree Ferarri/Lamborghini are above say BMW/Mercedes as a brand, which themselves are above Toyota/Nissan (**see note below). 

Is there a similar sort of ranking/tiering for classic bike makers? If the rankings aren't "explicit" e.g. maker A > maker B > maker C, then is there some type of tiering that exists that is similiar in analogy to the car manufacturer analogy above? For an American bike comparison, I'd say modern Schwinn is in a lower tier than modern Trek. And for instance, with Shimano grouping, DA > Ultegra > 105. So that's kinda what I'm saying - the general perceived ranking by those in the industry and/or hobby (and perhaps these two groups would rank things differently - if so, please say). The criteria can be anything but can be (for instance) the expected "wow" factor if the bike is seen by others in a bike club with knowledgeable cyclists.

Anyways - I just want to broaden my knowledge of the "big names" in classic bike manufacturing so if you have something to share, please do.


** Note: if you largely cannot agree with this statement, then it's probably best if you don't reply to this thread, as I don't think you are getting what I'm trying to ask as I'm not here to get into a fight or to receive psychiatric diagnoses from anonymous internet users.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Rankings shift and change. I'm old enough to remember the Schwinn Paramount, Cinelli and such British frames as Ron Cooper being considered the finest. 

At this moment in time? Apart from the raft of individual builders, my personal rankings put Colnago, Pinarello and Time at the top of the heap. Specialized ain't bad, either.


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## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

Has Bianchi lost some of it's relative lustre in the last 15-20 years or so vs. the other top Italian manufacturers? I know growing up Bianchi was "all that" but I know at the time they produced a lot of lower-end mass-market bikes that were probably produced in Taiwan. I know its still a prestigious brand, but I'm wondering if in the bicycling world, their foray into mass market has made the brand a bit weaker at the top, compared to companies that (for instance) remained entirely in Italy and didn't produce mass-market bikes.

At the very top, would you put Colnago #1?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

LOL, I wondered when you'd post this thread. 

Yes, there's definitely different levels of prestige in classic frames.

I see it as a bit of a distraction and try to treat my bikes like I treat my DeWalt. I'd say some things you can look at are whether they've subsequently screwed up their brand (Bianchi) and who's won what on them. If half the 1972 pro peloton raced something and Merckx was fond of that brand - probably some bonus points.

Ciocc, Cinelli and Colnago spring to mind for me too. If I was going to get a bike for the sake of owning something beautiful, I'd probably be more inclined toward local custom. And lugged steel, because I think that's really beautiful.  Since a disposable carbon or aluminum race frame already has performance nailed, wtf not.


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## bianchi101 (Sep 12, 2013)

Can you elaborate on Bianchi? What did they do or not do?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

armstrong said:


> Just wondering if in the industry/hobby/sport, there is some perceived rankings or tiers in rankings. Like WRT cars, most would agree Ferarri/Lamborghini are above say BMW/Mercedes as a brand, which themselves are above Toyota/Nissan (**see note below). .


It's a good deal less clear than with cars, first because there wasn't ever such a widely agreed hierarchy, and second because with many old brands the names are now owned by or licensed to newer unrelated companies that make products at different levels (Schwinn and Raleigh, for example). So you might get some general rankings of some makers, but you'll get a lot of confusion and argument, too.


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## ExChefinMA (May 9, 2012)

In my opinion, the best ranked bike is the one you are pedaling at the time. Nothing else matters. Isn’t there some commandment or something “thou shall not covet they neighbor’s bike”?

EEC


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

That's kind of like asking for a rank of hottest chicks. Prestige, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone may have an opinion but they'd all be different and equally meaningless.

For example, last time I was in Italy I had a chat with an Italian guy who had a DeRosa. Perhaps he was somewhat trying to be humble but I could also tell that he for real thought he had just a decent but ordinary bike. But when I told him I had a Cannondale he went off about how great that brand was and how he'd love to have one. Me, on the other hand, think of DeRosa as having a lot of prestige and don't think much (good or bad) about Cannondale as a brand. He thought Seven was the greatest brand going and nearly fainted when I told him I can't swing a dead cat without hitting one in the burbs of Boston. I would imagine there are plenty of Italian bikes that are ordinary to him but have super prestige to me.

So like I said. It's in the eye of the beholder so can't be ranked beyond how an individual would for themself alone.


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## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

Well thanks for the replies. I haven't even heard of DeRosa or Seven so it's all new to me.


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## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

Just curious. I'm sure there is no "absolute" answer to this but wanted to know some thoughts.

Over the summer I saw some extremely-pristine vintage Bianchis being sold on eBay. This was around the time of the TdF so I imagine the seller(s) were trying to maximize the sale price during the peak season. I recall seeing some late-1970s celeste Bianchi going for the low 2Ks. There were multiple high-rez detailed pictures of the bike/frame - it was shot from very angle and all done extremely well. I think the seller had a piece of art and he was trying to show it off as well as he could to encourage the bids to go as high as possible.

Anyways - it was basically a late 70s Bianchi that was NOS. There were several "similar" like auctions for other Bianchis too (like there always is) but during the summer, I found the quality of the bikes exceed anything I've seen on eBay since (and now).

A couple weeks later, I saw another mid-1990s Bianchi with Campagnolo lever-shifting on a 16 speed. So "more recent" and definitely rideable/passable as an everyday bike. It sold for a bit over 800.

So - a few questions.

- Do people ride these bikes? The 1970s bike - it hasn't ever been ridden and I presume the new owner probably won't ride it either. I guess this isn't a question. I don't expect the new owner to ride it, it'll probably never be ridden, right??

- The 1990s bike - it was a beauty. At the bottom of the auction the seller was answering some questions. One guy said he was going to college in September and was looking for a bike to ride on campus - and THIS was the bike for him (he said he searched 2 years for the "right" bike). The bike was a beauty. Excellent shape. Not pristine like the other bike, but I think "collectable" enough. Suppose some college kid bought this and rode it into the ground. Is this a bit of sacrilege? I mean, he's allowed to do what he wants with it - but I guess my question is this. Collectable bikes: are these to be ridden? Do people ride their collectable bikes? I'm not saying taking it out once a year to go around the block, but taking a rare, preserved bike, and using it as your regular bike, and "ruining" it (i.e. making it an old used bike). Is this frowned upon or encouraged or what? Vintage "original parts/paint" bikes are finite, and that number falls with every single person who chooses to make their vintage bike their commuter bike.

Just curious for your thoughts.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

bianchi101 said:


> Can you elaborate on Bianchi? What did they do or not do?


Pistas.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

armstrong said:


> - Do people ride these bikes? The 1970s bike - it hasn't ever been ridden and I presume the new owner probably won't ride it either. I guess this isn't a question. I don't expect the new owner to ride it, it'll probably never be ridden, right??
> 
> - The 1990s bike - it was a beauty. At the bottom of the auction the seller was answering some questions. One guy said he was going to college in September and was looking for a bike to ride on campus - and THIS was the bike for him (he said he searched 2 years for the "right" bike). The bike was a beauty. Excellent shape. Not pristine like the other bike, but I think "collectable" enough. Suppose some college kid bought this and rode it into the ground. Is this a bit of sacrilege? I mean, he's allowed to do what he wants with it - but I guess my question is this. Collectable bikes: are these to be ridden? Do people ride their collectable bikes? I'm not saying taking it out once a year to go around the block, but taking a rare, preserved bike, and using it as your regular bike, and "ruining" it (i.e. making it an old used bike). Is this frowned upon or encouraged or what? Vintage "original parts/paint" bikes are finite, and that number falls with every single person who chooses to make their vintage bike their commuter bike.
> 
> Just curious for your thoughts.


I've seen them out on the roads. With enough care, it's possible to keep a vintage bike in pristine shape.

When I gave up on my LeMond, I sent it to my brother. There was one of about the same vintage that got passed around a club I used to ride with; I'm sentimental enough that I didn't want to see that happen to mine. On the other hand, I did ride it through several winters and when I had a job where I had room to keep it inside, I commuted on it.

They were all built to be ridden.

I think people are sometimes choosier about the routes and weather they'll take a classic out on. My brother gave me crap about whether I'd ridden my LeMond through an oil refinery or something; that was all about road grime, which is more of a wet weather problem.

I also dislike white bikes because they look like ass when they get dirty, which happens in about ten minutes on a wet day. They're like high heels - conferring the message that the wearer doesn't have to go far.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Armstrong -- If I had a groovy, ancient bicycle in sensational condition, I'd be riding it a lot...if, of course, if felt good beneath me. Fashionistas may disagree (and I ain't putting them down!), but I personally would rather feel good than look good.

Jay -- To me, it's not only interesting, it's helpful to hear personal opinions, no matter how personal and individual they may be. Gather up enough opinions and you begin to see patterns of consensus that may indeed be genuinely valid and worthwhile. If the person giving the opinion is able to articulate their whys with style and panache, their opinion takes on undeniable power.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I like French bikes.. so partial to Look then Time.


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## bianchi101 (Sep 12, 2013)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Pistas.


So I googled Bianchi Pistas - and it looks like Pista is their single speed bike. What's wrong with that?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Bianchi was among the best Italian brands at the beginning of the 20th century together with Legnano for example.

On the second half of the century many excellent Italian builders rised , Colnago leading the pack, and many other good builders, artisans and "industrialized artisans" grew, while the big names of the first half of the century declined or disappeared. 

Bianchi remained a very important brand name and kept their high quality on the Reparto Corsa frames, but generally became gradually just a marketing brand and lost their Italianità by being merged on a conglomerate (Cycle Europe AB based on Sweden) and going Asian,

Now they are still an marketing Icon, thanks to their long history, and produce still some high quality carbon frames ( but IMHO those are no better or worse than any other American or Asian company ) and went full hipster mode with the awful Taiwanese Alu Pista frames. ( same could be said about Cinelli )

Other more knowledgeable Bianchistas could have another opinion.

At the start of this century Colnago tries to remain loyal to the roots but the market is forcing them to go more Asian and more "corporate", 

Pinarello, Willier and many others went full Asian already but still Carrera produces in Italy, Time and Look still produce in France too.

Pegoretti is one of the last Italian artisans BTW.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

bianchi101 said:


> So I googled Bianchi Pistas - and it looks like Pista is their single speed bike. What's wrong with that?


Every hipster and his fat girlfriend has one. Regardless of the quality of a frame, I think some of the cachet a bike can have comes from scarcity.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Thanks for the nice summary of Bianchi history, Salsa. I didn't realize until I looked it up that Bianchi is the oldest bike manufacturer still in the business. They were the first ones to make "safety bicycles" (not high-wheelers), in 1885.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Every hipster and his fat girlfriend has one. Regardless of the quality of a frame, I think some of the cachet a bike can have comes from scarcity.


No offense, but that's kind of dumb, and maybe a little offensive. If they were ridden by non-hipsters (or some other category of people you don't dislike) and skinny girlfriends, would you think they were cooler?

Personally, I think it's really cool that a lot of people are riding FG bikes -- and bikes of all kinds, for that matter -- regardless or whether they're doing it to be trendy. But I probably don't know from cachet, anyway.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

JCavilia said:


> No offense, but that's kind of dumb, and maybe a little offensive. If they were ridden by non-hipsters (or some other category of people you don't dislike) and skinny girlfriends, would you think they were cooler?
> 
> Personally, I think it's really cool that a lot of people are riding FG bikes -- and bikes of all kinds, for that matter -- regardless or whether they're doing it to be trendy. But I probably don't know from cachet, anyway.


Off course is great that lots of people ride bikes and the hipster urban cycling culture is attracting lots of young guys to ride bikes, even more if it is on places where cycling is not traditionally widespread.

My opinion about the Bianchi pista frames was just because the latests are just cheaper alu frames but sold at a high price thanks to the brand that have become a hipster icon.

The steel Bianchi pista clasica or even the a Pista D2 where of a better quality but also overpriced IMHO


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

bianchi101 said:


> So I googled Bianchi Pistas - and it looks like Pista is their single speed bike. What's wrong with that?


FYI. Pista is the Italian word for track. So to be more accurate Pista is their track bike not their single speed bike (though it is a single speed bike). 

I really don't know much about track bikes so I can't tell you what, if anything, is wrong with them. 

I do know it's kind of the Range Rover of bikes (similar to how Range Rovers tend to be owned by trendy urban suburban dwellers who will never rove a range Pistas are very popular with cyclist who will never be anywhere near a bike track). That doesn't say anything about the quality of the bike but it's probably enough information for you to make an educated guess as to why someone might have a problem with them.

I'm sure you've probably heard the ever popular North Face jacket rant from people who have a problem with someone not having climbed Everest but wearing a jacket from a company that made it name making hard core outdoor gear blah blah blah sell out company blah blah blah?
Similar deal with Bianchi Pista rants.....I think.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Off course is great that lots of people ride bikes and the hipster urban cycling culture is attracting lots of young guys to ride bikes, even more if it is on places where cycling is not traditionally widespread.
> My opinion about the Bianchi pista frames was just because the latests are just cheaper alu frames but sold at a high price thanks to the brand that have become a hipster icon.
> The steel Bianchi pista clasica or even the a Pista D2 where of a better quality but also overpriced IMHO


I certainly see your point. Your opinion is informed by your knowledge of the quality of the product, rather than some irrelevant reaction to some group of people. 

It is always a little sad when a company with a history of quality downgrades the product and just trades on its name.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Every hipster and his fat girlfriend has one. Regardless of the quality of a frame, I think some of the cachet a bike can have comes from scarcity.


Now hang on just a second. I don't have one, and neither does my fat girlfriend.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Pegoretti is one of the last Italian artisans BTW.


There's lots of artisans in Italy, building in all the popular materials.
Basso, Sarto, De Rosa, Gios-torino, Legend just for starters. Cinelli still do custom steel.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Every hipster and his fat girlfriend has one


Cinelli MASH outnumber them ten to one.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Now hang on just a second. I don't have one, and neither does my fat girlfriend.


Ooh, you're failing as a hipster. Not sure if that's good or bad...

Actually, I did look at the Pista a little bit when I was thinking about a track bike. I remember thinking it was a little slack at the time, although looking at the chart on their web site now, it looks pretty typical. Anyway, I'd read somewhere that the Pista was intended as a road-going singlespeed, which is fine. It's more that it feels like they've flooded the market with them than that it's also a symbol for a group that irritates me. I try to be a little self-centered than to worry about that.


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