# Domane indexed steering/headset



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

Hello All,


I've registered on here to find out if anyone else has been finding that their headset has become 'indexed' (where the bars sort of click back to the straight ahead position) in a short time? I’ve done about 1,500 miles on my 6 series Domane and found that this had become an issue with my bike about 150 miles ago. 

I replaced the lower headset bearing (which was a pita to source but that’s a different story!) and rode 140 miles last week and found signs that the subsequent one was going the same way! 

The headset/bars were tightened to the torque settings specified on the steerer tube/bars, so were probably slightly over tight. I’m want to hear any other experiences of this because I suspect the lower crown race is taking substantial forces because of the forks design.

Thanks in advance!
Nick0


----------



## okiefo (Jan 10, 2009)

That seems pretty unusual. Did you check to see if the conical spacer isn't making contact with the top of the head tube and causing drag?


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

Thanks for the reply - 



okiefo said:


> That seems pretty unusual. Did you check to see if the conical spacer isn't making contact with the top of the head tube and causing drag?


How could I check that? once the spacers are assembled it's all under compression?

p.s. do you guys experience a weird time delay when typing stuff here? It could drive a person nuts!!!


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

This "indexing" you speak of sounds like improper cable running to me. If your cables/housings are run improperly, it can push your bars back to center after they've been turned. Usually this means they're too long and both sides are constantly pushing the bars in either direction, centering them more or less on their own.

Please post a picture of the front of the bike, all the housings.

There is NO torque specified on a steerer tube and there is NO torque specified for bearing preload. So what exactly are you doing? Preload is done by feel, there is not a torque value for it. The only torque value comes in the end, after preload is set and you're tightening the stem to the steerer. Usually that's 5Nm.

It should go like this:

Fork is removed, bearings are removed, all grease is removed from everything.

First the frame should be greased. Both the top and bottom of the head tube, the flanges should be packed with grease. 
Next you should place the lower bearing up in the frame, the grease will hold it.
Next you should place the upper bearing in the frame. The angled parts contact the frame.
Next you slide your fork up through both bearings and seat it.
Next you slide down your compression ring and secure that between the upper bearing and the steerer tube.
Next you slide down the conical spacer that has an o-ring inside it.
And if there's any spacers under the stem, they go on top of the conical spacer.

At this point your stem is ready to go on. There should be a compression plug inside of the steerer tube, and it should be torqued usually to 8Nm.

Next the stem slides on. If the stem sits a few mm above the top of the compression plug, you just put a top cap on it. If the stem is flush with the compression plug/top of steerer, you place a 5mm spacer on top of the stem. There HAS to be at least 2mm of air space under the top cap so it can compress/preload the bearings.

Now you preload. Tighten that top cap bolt just until you can hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth with no play in the headset. Then tighten just a half turn more. There is NO torque setting for the bearing preload. You only tighten to remove the play in the headset and then slightly more. Some suggest you tighten all the way until your steering becomes gritty, then back it off a bit, but that might be too much.

After the tension is set, THEN you use the torque value to tighten the stem down after you center it.


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

Many thanks for this reply MMsRepBike.


The indexing is also known as fretting or brinelling (although brinelling is caused by lubricant breakdown) - it's the denting of the headset bearings in the shell in the straight ahead position which causes the steering to kind of 'click' back to the straight ahead position. It's not the cables, although they are quite strong and springy. 

My bike has maximum torque settings marked on all the components, bars, stem, top cap, steerer tube expanding nut/bolt. 

Thanks for the explanation of the order of reassembly - you mention "slide down the conical spacer that has an o-ring inside it" - I don't think mine has an o-ring inside it!

Picture of my bike herewith, and thank you again for your attention.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

nick0 said:


> The indexing is also known as fretting or brinelling (although brinelling is caused by lubricant breakdown) - it's the denting of the headset bearings in the shell in the straight ahead position which causes the steering to kind of 'click' back to the straight ahead position.


OMG if you're denting the bearing races, you're WAYYYY over tightening the top cap.



> My bike has maximum torque settings marked on all the components, bars, stem, *top cap*, steerer tube expanding nut/bolt.


You have a torque spec for the top cap? And you're actually torqueing the top cap?


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

tlg said:


> OMG if you're denting the bearing races, you're WAYYYY over tightening the top cap.
> 
> You have a torque spec for the top cap? And you're actually torqueing the top cap?


Yes - if I don't tighten the top cap the bars don't stay where I set 'em and the steerer tube wobbles! It's marked up at 4NM - so not much at all.


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

tlg said:


> OMG if you're denting the bearing races, you're WAYYYY over tightening the top cap.
> 
> You have a torque spec for the top cap? And you're actually torqueing the top cap?


Totally agree. Same question here. Your top cap has toque values written on it? If so that's bad.

If you're tightening the top cap to 5Nm or something that is your issue. And sadly you're going to have to replace both of your bearings, they're probably damaged.

The o-ring in the conical spacer isn't that big of deal but it should be there. It seems your problem is just overtightening of the top cap.


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

I wonder if my (Cane Creek 40 Series IS Integrated 1 1/8 Inch Headset) is missing an O ring that MMsRepBike mentioned....?


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

nick0 said:


> Yes - if I don't tighten the top cap the bars don't stay where I set 'em and the steerer tube wobbles! It's marked up at 4NM - so not much at all.


In my experience 4Nm is far too much. Usually 1-2 Nm is sufficient, but a torque wrench should never be used to tighten the top cap.

The stem gets tightened last, after you tighten the top cap just enough so that there's no wobble. Hold the front brake and push the bike forward. Tighten the cap until there's no more wobble and just a tiny bit more, never overtighten.

At this point your handlebars/stem will probably be pointing the wrong direction, but that's normal, the stem should not be tightened to the steerer yet, that happens last. The last thing you do is center the bars and tighten the stem to the steerer.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

nick0 said:


> Yes - if I don't tighten the top cap the bars don't stay where I set 'em and the steerer tube wobbles!


Your top cap has absolutely nothing to do with your bars staying put. You're doing something wrong. 
Once properly set and your stem tightened, you could remove your top cap. 



> It's marked up at 4NM - so not much at all.


No, that's quite a lot.


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

Thanks for the replies guys. Problem is that if it's not tightened up to 3/4Nm (which is pretty loose) then the steerer tube wobbles under braking. I wonder if a missing O ring could account for this whole goddam issue! 

Does anyone else have the cane creek headset IS41/28.6 - 

40-Series

and can anyone tell me if they should have the O-ring?


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

tlg said:


> Your top cap has absolutely nothing to do with your bars staying put. You're doing something wrong.
> Once properly set and your stem tightened, you could remove your top cap.


Agreed - but it does set the amount of compression that the headset is under, and you have to tighten it to set the bars straight ahead?


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

nick0 said:


> Agreed - but it does set the amount of compression that the headset is under, and you have to tighten it to set the bars straight ahead?


No, it's nothing to do with setting the bars in position. As @tlg and @mms have explained.

It's to set bearing preload only.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

nick0 said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. Problem is that if it's not tightened up to 3/4Nm (which is pretty loose) then the steerer tube wobbles under braking. I wonder if a missing O ring could account for this whole goddam issue!


You probably have the bearings, compression ring, or shims installed wrong.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

nick0 said:


> Agreed - but it does set the amount of compression that the headset is under, and *you have to tighten it to set the bars straight ahead*?


Noooooo. The stem is what aligns the bars.


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

tlg said:


> You probably have the bearings, compression ring, or shims installed wrong.


Nope, its not possible, it only goes together one way. I have no shims though, nor any o-ring!


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I have the cane creek headset sitting right in front of me. Yes, it has a blue o-ring inside of the conical spacer. That o-ring is not your issue though.

I think you don't have proper space under your top cap.

If you take the top cap off and look into that spacer you have sitting on top of your stem, there should be nothing there. I have a feeling your steerer is there. There needs to be a minimum of 2mm of empty space above the top of the compression plug. By your description of having to tighten the top cap to 4Nm it appears as though you do not have this needed space and therefore your preload is not functioning properly.

It would help if you took it all apart, taking pictures as you go. Then we could properly diagnose where you've gone astray.

Take the top cap off and take a picture of inside that top spacer.
Take that top spacer off and take a picture.
Take a picture of the underside of the top cap too.
I need to see the flange to know how much space you need to leave empty.


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> I have the cane creek headset sitting right in front of me. Yes, it has a blue o-ring inside of the conical spacer. That o-ring is not your issue though.
> 
> I think you don't have proper space under your top cap.
> 
> ...


many thanks, will do


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

MMsRepBike thanks again for all your help and attention with this. 

I planned to strip the headset down last night and photograph it, but preparing my wet weather bike for today’s (wet) commute took precedence. I did however take the top cap off last night and there’s a 1mm gap. 

Having readjusted the headset on Tuesday night, and having ridden the bike 56 miles in the following two days, I now *think* (fingers crossed!) that I may have got the set up right – cap bolt not too tight, or too loose. 

I don’t know if I am alone in the setup being so sensitive on my Domane – if it’s too loose the bike judders under braking, too tight and it starts indexing the lower headset bearing. I also don’t know why we all moved to the A-head system, there was nothing wrong with the old quill system in my humble opinion!

Would you be able to upload a photo of the cane creek headset blue o-ring - if imine is absent then I will be taking it up with the shop where I bought it! 

Also, can you let me know your best practice method for setting up the bars/headset?

Many thanks in advance, wishing everyone a great weekend ride,
Nick0


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

nick0 said:


> FONT=Calibri]I planned to strip the headset down last night and photograph it, but preparing my wet weather bike for today’s (wet) commute took precedence. I did however take the top cap off last night and there’s a 1mm gap. [/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]


1mm is not enough. As mentioned several times you should have at least 2mm.
Also as asked previously, what's the bottom of your top cap look like? If it's got a step or conical shaped, it's likely bottoming out on your fork and you're not getting the bearings adjusted.



> FONT=Calibri]Having readjusted the headset on Tuesday night, and having ridden the bike 56 miles in the following two days, I now *think* (fingers crossed!) that I may have got the set up right – cap bolt not too tight, or too loose. [/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]


I wouldn't ride it. You're gonna ruin another headset because I don't think you've solved anything.



> I don’t know if I am alone in the setup being so sensitive on my Domane – if it’s too loose the bike judders under braking, too tight and it starts indexing the lower headset bearing. I also don’t know why we all moved to the A-head system, there was nothing wrong with the old quill system in my humble opinion![/FONT][/COLOR]


They've been around for decades. Time to get use to them.


> FONT=Calibri]Also, can you let me know your best practice method for setting up the bars/headset?[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]


See post 4


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

tlg said:


> 1mm is not enough. As mentioned several times you should have at least 2mm.
> Also as asked previously, what's the bottom of your top cap look like? If it's got a step or conical shaped, it's likely bottoming out on your fork and you're not getting the bearings adjusted.


So do I need to shim the headset bottom bearing to provide the extra 1mm, or find a different combination of spacers below/above the stem?
From memory the bottom of my top cap is stepped, however I am sure that it's not touching the fork or the steerer tube expanding bolt.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

nick0 said:


> So do I need to shim the headset bottom bearing to provide the extra 1mm, or find a different combination of spacers below/above the stem?


You need a headset spacer stack that is a few mm taller. Or trim a few mm from your steerer tube.



> From memory the bottom of my top cap is stepped, however I am sure that it's not touching the fork or the steerer tube expanding bolt.


I bet that step in your top cap is 1-2mm.


----------



## nick0 (Sep 17, 2014)

tlg said:


> You need a headset spacer stack that is a few mm taller. Or trim a few mm from your steerer tube.
> 
> I bet that step in your top cap is 1-2mm.


thanks again for your time and attention


----------

