# Tokyowheel General thread- posts and discussions here



## Thuma

*Tokyo Wheel - Epic 60 - Carbon Clincher Wheelset - Recent Purchase*

I recently purchased a Wheelset from Tokyo Wheel www.tokyowheel.com, the Epic 60 Carbon Clincher and I am extremely happy with the purchase. First off, Tokyo Wheel is relatively unknown (at least that was my perception after doing my due diligence on carbon Wheelset manufacturers and coming up with very little) in the US compared to Zipp, Reynolds, Easton, etc. However, what got my attention was their price point compared to the other Behemoth manufacturers of wheels. I believe their singular focus on producing high quality carbon fiber wheels allows them to price their products aggressively. I'm 6'3" and in the off season, clock in at a hefty 200 so I was concerned about their wheels supporting my large (not designed for road cycling) frame. I emailed the owner James Ferrer, who responded very promptly and assured me they were designed for weights up to 235. So, I still have a lot of eating to do before I crack these wheels!

The wheels ship from Tokyo and from order to arrival took about 7 days. After making some slight adjustment to my brakes to account for the somewhat wider wheel, they are now a permanent part of my Cervelo R3. I utilize a Shimano Dura Ace cassette, which was no problem with the installation. </SPAN>
I have put about 100 miles on them so far from ranging from relatively flat 30 milers to 3,000 feet of climbing and I'm super pleased with the performance. I’m on the West Coast and the wind can howl here and even in the windiest conditions I couldn’t really feel much movement left to right (note again that I’m not build like a Spanish climber!)

I'm actually heading to Tokyo next week for a business trip and plan on stopping by their offices to check out their facilities.</SPAN>

Bottom line, I highly recommend this product and if you’re looking for a Wheelset comparable to Zipp in quality but more than half the cost, then you should check out Tokyo Wheel. </SPAN>


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## tvad

Nice guerilla marketing post.


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## coachboyd

hmm, a wheelset named Epic. . .Mr. Tokyo Wheel, I'd be ready to hear from Mr. Sinyard fairly soon. 

This also reads like somebody from within the company making a thread.


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## Thuma

I know I'm a large guy but this is no "guerilla" marketing. I bought the wheelset, own the wheelset, ride on the wheelset and have the bike and wheelset hanging in my garage. Maybe becuase of my size and the fact that they're "hanging" in my garage is why you refer to this as "guerilla". Anyhow, Tvad, I would be happy to send you a photo if you're interested.

These are great wheels for a recent carbon fiber wheelset newbie, I'm pleased with the product.


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## Thuma

Wow. Well, anyhow just an opinion from someone who is stoked on a new product. I bet if I posted a review of my new Cervelo or new Zipp Wheels, people wouldn't be so cynical. If there is a better forum for posting reviews other than roadbike"REVIEW".com I'm all ears.


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## tvad

Thuma said:


> I know I'm a large guy but this is no "guerilla" marketing. I bought the wheelset, own the wheelset, ride on the wheelset and have the bike and wheelset hanging in my garage. Maybe becuase of my size and the fact that they're "hanging" in my garage is why you refer to this as "guerilla".


Guerilla. Not Gorilla.

Guerilla Marketing definition

Maybe you just have bad timing with your first post sounding like an advertisement. If so, enjoy the wheels...but I'm not convinced as this is an often used marketing tactic, and the "I'm just a happy customer" line is always the first defense.


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## Thuma

In my attempt to be snarky and sarcastic I somehow lost grasp of the English language. My brain read this as "gorilla" not "guerilla". That should tell you something about the legitimacy of the post. My first post to this website so I guess you have every right to be suspect. Thanks.


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## Thuma

Tokyo Wheelset - Picture Attached (should have done this in my original post).


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## redmr2_man

Thuma said:


> I'm actually heading to Tokyo next week for a business trip and plan on stopping by their offices to check out their facilities


I'm sure you could post pictures of their factory too!

haha, come on man, you have to admit it sounds like you're shilling their wheels. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Look up a career in marketing, you have what it takes!


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## RaptorTC




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## Thuma

Listen, I get it. I have the same type of reaction to many product reviews but you can come to this similar type of conclusion for an positive product review, right? How does someone on this forum post a review without being accused of being a shill(sweet pic by the way RaptorTC) for the company? I post a lot of positive restaurant reviews on Yelp but I don't work for any of them or have ever had to defend them. I mentioned my visit to their office in Tokyo, because I was impressed (yes this sounds like more marketing) that the owner would actually take a meeting to show me around. 

Anyhow, thanks for the replies - this has been quite enjoyable defending my right to post positive product reviews.


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## RaptorTC

It's just the nature of how this came about and how common shill posts are around here. When a new member joins and creates thread raving about a product within their first few posts it just looks suspicious. 

Glad you like your wheels and nice looking ride you've got there.


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## tvad

RaptorTC said:


> It's just the nature of how this came about and how common shill posts are around here. When a new member joins and creates thread raving about a product within their first few posts it just looks suspicious.
> 
> Glad you like your wheels and nice looking ride you've got there.


^This.

Ditto on the bike. Enjoy the wheels.


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## JamesFerrer

Hi Everyone,

I am James Ferrer, the owner of Tokyowheel. And I think this is a good time for me to step in and try to put some perspective on the thread. Hopefully we can turn things around and get the discussion going in a positive way.

Jonathan just sent me an email, letting me know that he started this thread and was surprised by how everyone responded. It's understandable from both sides, Jonathan and I talked a lot before he bought his wheels and after, and he was just trying to help Tokyowheel out and get a discussion going on this forum. You all must see a lot of this Shill stuff, so you are quick to jump on a new poster that sounds a little too positive. I understand that, and you can certainly discuss anyway you would like. 

For what it's worth let me point out a few things.
1. Jonathan doesn't work for Tokyowheel, he just bought one of our wheelsets a month or two ago.
2. I do work for Tokyowheel, but i'm not here to do any sneaky spamming or shilling.

Anyway, let me just say one more thing. I'd like for you all to have a channel to talk directly with me and get info, ask questions, or even make complaints about Tokyowheel. I'm not going to talk up our wheels here because that just doesn't seem appropriate for a few reasons, one of which is that the thread instantly went south and turned negative. 

Let me ask you all, as a community, would you like me to start a thread introducing myself, so that you can have a communication channel to Tokyowheel? 

Thanks everyone, let's keep it positive.


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## redmr2_man

pretty ironic.

Nothing in this thread went south or was negative. You have to admit, his post sounds loaded with marketing lingo. And then his buddy, owner of the company pops in, it's just funny. Please do not take offense. Let's keep this positive 

We're glad he is enjoying the wheels. And we are glad you are making carbon wheels. The world needs more people making carbon wheels, so thank you


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## ergott

I've got something to say.

Thuma, clean out your garage! Looks as bad as mine for crying out loud.

That is all.


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## ergott

@JamesFerrer

You may want to reconsider using the name Epic on your wheels. Specialized is known for sending out cease and desist letters followed by a lawsuit to protect their trademarks. There was a recent uproar when they did this to a store that sold wheels labeled "Roubaix".


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## Thuma

ergott said:


> I've got something to say.
> 
> Thuma, clean out your garage! Looks as bad as mine for crying out loud.
> 
> That is all.


Amen to that! Why do you think I have to hang the bike? No space on the ground between my kids bikes, wife's bike, the townies, and mountain bikes.


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## mambo

Hi James,

I am currently having what I hope will be a very nice Italian frame custom built by a small builder called Sarto who build quite a few frames for pro riders and some pro teams that are branded with sponsor logos. I will be in the market for some carbon wheels. I have a couple of questions:

1. What brand are your rims? (are they Gigantex?) If they aren't they Chinese built or Taiwanese?
2. I have looked through your website but can find no pictures of the section profile of the wheels. Do you have anything along those lines?
3. What width are the rims. I would be interested in the 38/50 tubular rims.
4. Finally, can you build with any other hubs, say Chris King R45 an what price would they be?

I feel that this sort of information should be on your website a la "wheelsmith"

Thanks


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## JamesFerrer

Hi Mambo, 

Thank you very much for your post and for your questions. I will try to give you the most informative answers possible. Also thanks for numbering your answers, I will follow your numbers in my answers.

Congratulations on your Sarto frame, that should be a great ride. Good choice in deciding you want to put carbon wheels on the new bike, you certainly should. 

1. Our rims are Tokyowheel brand, we manufacture them specifically for our wheels. 

About our manufacturing locations:
We are an international company, we have our office in Tokyo, where we originally begun business. Over the years we have manufactured wheels and wheel parts all over the world. Currently we build our wheels in two locations. We build our Manufactured in USA wheels in Tokyo, and sell those only to the domestic Japanese market. The wheels that you are interested in are the EPIC and ELITE series road bike wheels, which we offer to the worldwide market. For these wheels our rim engineering and design is done in our Tokyo office. All our hubs are made in Taiwan, including the DT Swiss 240s. Our ceramic bearings are made in the USA. Our spokes are either Sapim, made in Belgium, or our standard spokes which are Pillar, made in Taiwan. We used to make our rims in Taiwan, but this past year we upgraded production to a new world-class facility in east China, near Taiwan. This is also where we hand build, and multi-test each wheelset. We hold every part of our production to strict quality tolerances, and there are more technical advancements in our rims than I have space to mention here (Aero profile, DuraHeat R braking surface, clincher tire hook, etc.). We produce each part of our products in what we believe to be the specific best facility in the world for that part. 


P.S. Some people have an idea that made in China means low quality, bad products. We moved our production there for exactly the opposite reason. We can now provide a higher quality, higher performance wheel based upon the new EPIC and ELITE rims. We make a great product, and we stand behind it.

Here is a review that was posted on the slowtwitch forum yesterday that mentions our manufacturing locations.

I just bought a set of the Epic 38 clinchers with Sapim spokes and ceramic bearings and I love them. I know everyone is concerned about them being made in China but keep in mind most of the big names are manufactured overseas. As long as they comply with the owner's specs and the QA is in place it shouldn't be an issue. Now about the wheels. I received them professionally and securely boxed and in a timely manner. They look Fabulous! And let's face it, if you are a cyclist looking good is important. Weight - my set weighed in at 1370 Grams. 10 grams under advertised. Braking - compared to my Zipp 303 and Easton EC90 these are by far the best. No pulsing and a consistent feeling when applying pressure. I intentionally bombed down several steep, long climbs staying on the brakes trying to heat them up. They weren't even warm to the touch. Ride feel - they don't feel or sound hollow like my Zipps and smooth out the road pretty good. They hold speed and handle crosswinds well. Wheel Trueness - again I have been intentionally hitting rough areas of road, manholes, potholes and other imperfections trying to throw off the trueness and they have stayed true. As a matter of fact they showed up and remain perfectly true. Flexing - I'm 170 pounds and stand quite often toward the end of climbs. My Zipps flex and touch the brake pads when I'm hammering up climbs - these DO NOT. I'm telling you, I don't care where these wheels were made, they are the real deal. Concerning the owner's customer service. I've sent James no less than seven emails inquiring about the wheels and have never waited more than one day for a super comprehensive response. In closing, if you are looking for an exceptional set of carbon wheels at a Great price log into Tokyowheels. You can email me at [The customer included his email address in the original post but I don't think it's appropriate for me to repost that here] if you have any questions. BTW: I'm a retired Marine living in Okinawa Japan and if these wheels were crap I wouldn't lie about it. Everything above is spot on.

2. Sorry that the rim profiles weren't easy to find. They are a lower down on each of the wheel pages. You can see the different profiles for each model with detailed measurements. Here is a screenshot of that section of the webpage from the Epic 60-88 wheelset









I'm going to attempt to post some more images here. I don't mean to be spammy but im going to put a link next to each image so you can easily find out which wheelset it is and get extra info. 
Epic 38 - Tokyowheel? Epic 38 - Carbon Clincher - Wheelset | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!








Epic 50 - Tokyowheel? Epic 50 - Carbon Clincher - Wheelset | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!








Epic 60 - Tokyowheel? Epic 60 - Carbon Clincher - Wheelset | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!







Epic 88 - Tokyowheel? Epic 88 - Carbon Clincher - Wheelset | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!








Elite 38 - Tokyowheel? Elite 38 - Carbon Tubular - Rim | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!








Elite 50 - Tokyowheel? Elite 50 - Carbon Tubular - Wheelset | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!







Elite 60 - Tokyowheel? Elite 60 - Carbon Tubular - Wheelset | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!








Elite 88 - Tokyowheel? Elite 88 - Carbon Tubular - Wheelset | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!








3. Because you specifically asked about the Elite 38-50 here is the combined diagram for that wheelset.








The widths are both 26mm at the widest point, and 25mm at the braking surface. You can also see this info on each wheel page. In the 'Quick Specs' (for anyone else that wants to check other models)









4. About other hubs, sorry we don't offer Chris King. But we do have one hubset that isn't currently on our website (It will be up there in the very near future). The DT Swiss 240s Straight Pull hubset, which would be built with Sapim CX-Ray (straight pull) spokes. That's our top-of-the-line hubset at the moment. 

About the website info. Sorry that the information wasn't easily accessible. We work to continuously update and improve our website for greater clarity and greater value as a resource to the riding community, if you have any other suggestions we would be more than happy to hear them. 

Thanks for reading my overly long post, if you have any other questions or need anything please don't hesitate to ask. 

And to any other riders reading this post, you are also welcome to ask any questions, provide feedback or complaints or give your opinions on things. Thanks very much.


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## mambo

Hi James,

Thank you very much for the very detailed information. It is more than I expected and is the most comprehensive reply I have received from any manufacturer, so is much appreciated.

Luckily in Gibraltar, in order to promote sport and healthy living, there is no duty on sporting goods!

Thanks


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## mambo

Hi James,

Sorry to bother you again, but would you have the separate weights of the rims and ceramic hubs? Also how much better - if at all - are the DT hubs over your own ceramic ones, as they are a huge increase in price. How do you think your rims compare to the Gigantex rims? Is there the possibility of sending hubs to you for the build? Are they EU tested/approved? Finally even if in a PM, do you know what the brand and model of the alternative hubset is?

I know I am being a bit of a pain in the butt, however, with the availability of wheel offers (it is currently a toss up between you and wheelsmith, hence the Gigantex questions) and being a bit anal one wants to be as certain as possible.

However, it does afford you the possibility of having the info out here!



Thanks


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## coachboyd

Hey James,

You may want to get your legal team to check into something. It seems as if FarSports, Yoleo, and others may have taken your exact rim drawings and used them as their own. I'm not sure if it's something they stole or if it's a misunderstanding, but you should definitely have it checked out.

Here they have your exact rim profile for the 50mm, and you can see the same rim stuff for your other models listed in other places. I would definitely check into this if I were you. Hope this helps.

2013 newest modern clincher 50mm depth 25mm width U shape carbon wheels with Sapim spokes, strong&stiff, View 50mm 25mm wide carbon wheels, OEM Product Details from Xiamen Far Sports Industry And Trade Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com


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## mambo

The photo of the ceramic hubs is also identical and the hub spec is almost identical too on the Farsports wheels. Even the weights for the wheels are almost identical They also offer a DT 240 hub option. It looks like essentially the same product!


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## 9W9W

mambo said:


> The photo of the ceramic hubs is also identical and the hub spec is almost identical too on the Farsports wheels. Even the weights for the wheels are almost identical They also offer a DT 240 hub option. It looks like essentially the same product!


Pass the popcorn please!

mniam, mniam, mniam! 

I am hooked! Please resume now.


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## JamesFerrer

Hi Mambo, Coachboyd, and 9w9w,

Thank you all for your post, I will go through each of your post and try to answer all the topics that you've brought up.

Mambo, thanks again for your previous post as well. About the difference between our hubs and the DT Swiss hubs (FYI starting now, for everyone that orders a DT Swiss hubset we are upgrading it to the DT Swiss 240s Straight Pull hubset. We don't have that info online yet, but we are notifying everyone that orders that we are upgrading them at no extra cost). There are two main things to consider if you are comparing the our Vapor Ceramic hub with the DT Swiss, that would be the bearings and the freehub ratchet. Occasionally we'll get a warranty issue about the DT swiss bearings and also occasionally we'll get a warrant issue our the vapor Ceramic's ratchet mechanism (These issues are very are, but it might be pertinent). The big difference in the freehub ratchet is that on the Vapor Ceramic hub its a 6 pawl ratchet, and the DT Swiss 240s uses a star ratchet, which has potentially better engagement in situations like lower speed uphill accelerations. The majority of our riders will choose the Vapor Ceramics for Triathlon, and DT Swiss for racing or serious group riding. Let me know if you have any more questions about that, we have a 6 part email course called Carbon Wheels 101 that you can signup for on our website, and It goes into detail on the difference between hubs spokes, and many other topics.

Also you'll probably be interested to know that we are in the middle of a video shoot at this moment. The main thing that we are shooting is a 'How is a Carbon Wheel Made' documentary/ factory tour. I know you're looking for info right now, but in the near future you'll have a good video view of the different hubs. You all will also love to see our manufacturing process and facility, I think it will clear up a lot of people's anxiety about purchasing online and dealing with a non-mainstream brand.

There is no final timeline for the release of the video, but we are shooting it tomorrow morning (I have to appear on camera as the host, and am still prepping, so please excuse me if im at all rushed responding to everyone's support requests)

About EU/UCI testing no we don't do that. We have our own digital testin lab that we do a number of tests that mostly pertain to braking surface and rim strength/stiffness. We also have a number of other more basic QC test that we do (P.S. we're going to give you all a look at this testing process in the video I described earlier)

Sorry we can't build with hubs that you send in.

Hi Coachboyd,
Thanks for pointing that out, we will check into it. Actually a poster over on slowtwitch reposted your post and because of the flow of my customer support responses I have already responded to him about how I would be responding to you. But anyway if you have any more info please let me know.

We have learned that people are very interested in the manufacturing process and all the differentiators between different wheels. So we're addressing this head on with an open look into our factory and our manufacturing process. It's actually perfect timing that this topic would come up because we have the video shoot tomorrow morning (I am not sure how long editing will take, so we don't have a definitive time line for publication). And as I can see everyone will be very interested to get an inside look into how we make our wheels. 

Sorry if my response is rushed, we still have a lot of prep to do for this. 

Mambo and 9W9W,

Thanks for pointing this out, we are going to check and see what the situation is. In the meantime, if you find anyone else using any of our marketing materials please let me know.


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## mambo

Hi James,

Thanks again for the reply. However, I think the most pertinent question that you need to address is whether these sellers are just copying your materials or are they selling the exact same re-branded product. Below is the quote for the 50mm tubular wheel set from Farsports:

FSC50-CM-25,weight: 1490g/set+/-30g. Cost $572/set.

--50mm carbon clincher 25mm wide 20/24H external nipple rim
--EDhubs, black
--Sapim cx-ray spokes, black
--Sapim sils nipples, black
--Basalt brake surface

This is the same hub as your standard non-ceramic hub set. The rim profiles and width are identical, the weight for the pair is exactly the same as you state on your website here: 

Tokyowheel? Epic 50 - Carbon Clincher - Wheelset | Tokyowheel? | FREE Shipping Worldwide | Guaranteed No Customs Fees | 110% Money Back Test Ride | Buy Online!

and the spokes and nipples are the same CX-Rays you offer as a $180.00 upgrade.

Your listed price for this exact spec is $1,199.00. At $572.00, their price is less than half of yours! Plus they automatically include Ti skewers.

I am not trying to damage your business at all, however, these are serious concerns to any prospective wheel purchaser such as myself and obviously, nobody is going to pay more double for what by all appearances is the same product.


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## Bob Dopolina

James,

Please explain why you are doing some kind of 'digital testing' when everyone else in the industry does standard DIN testing. What is digital testing? 

Am I understanding your post correctly and are you saying that you own not only your molds but the factory they are produced in?

What carbon do you use?

What is the tonnage?

What are you testing on the braking surface? 

Are you materials HTg? If so is it in the prepreg or are you using a basalt treatment?

If you are using basalt how is it applied? 

What temps have you tested you rims to? What was the protocol? How did they fail? Do you have video of the test you can show? SGS test reports you can post?

I look forward to your response.


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## WarwickE36

Enjoying watching the brow beating unfold on both this forum and slowtwitch. 

See how easy it is to join a forum and make a post... But you already know that because that's your marketing plan. I can't say it's a horrible plan, as it's free and I had never heard of your wheels before now. However, when push comes to shove and guys who know their **** like most slowtwitcher's do, you will have to put up the facts or shut up. 

When a solid up and coming company like FLO gets browbeat the cycling community for the most part will step in and regulate. *When some no name brand comes in claiming their the best thing since sliced bread starts creating accounts to hype their product... well you get this. *


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## NealH

coachboyd said:


> Hey James,
> 
> You may want to get your legal team to check into something. It seems as if FarSports, Yoleo, and others may have taken your exact rim drawings and used them as their own. I'm not sure if it's something they stole or if it's a misunderstanding, but you should definitely have it checked out.
> 
> Here they have your exact rim profile for the 50mm, and you can see the same rim stuff for your other models listed in other places. I would definitely check into this if I were you. Hope this helps.
> 
> 2013 newest modern clincher 50mm depth 25mm width U shape carbon wheels with Sapim spokes, strong&stiff, View 50mm 25mm wide carbon wheels, OEM Product Details from Xiamen Far Sports Industry And Trade Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com



LOL!!! Yea, everybody has their "own" wheel.


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## mambo

The silence is deafening!


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## mambo

Well James,

I had given you the benefit of the doubt assuming that you might be busy with filming the factory manufacturing your wheels. Your replies were attentive, comprehensive and speedy......................that is until serious concerns were raised regarding the similarity of the product you stated was a design specific to you and that being offered by a number of Chinese sellers. One can only assume by your lack of response (you have had a week now) that you were blatantly trying to mislead fellow forum members into paying more than double for the same product we can obtain from Farsports for instance. I hope potential purchasers of this type of wheelset will view this thread whilst investigating their purchase, so that they can make an informed decision before they waste their money!


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## JamesFerrer

Thanks everyone for your discussion on this thread, sorry for my slow response.


It was about one week ago, I was taking a morning walk to our factory, to prep for our factory tour video shoot. I had been reading through the discussion on this forum and another and honestly I was not feeling positive about the situation, and I was giving it some serious thought. 


That’s when I realized something, that you are all completely right. Your comments and opinions are perfectly acceptable and you are all correct. What do I mean by that? I mean that as members of the community, any opinion you have of a brand is a valid reality. Any concern or objection you have is valid even in situations where there are misunderstandings and the factual truth is actually very positive. So firstly, let me thank the posters for providing the ultra valuable negative feedback. No human or company is perfect, it’s the ones that accept negative feedback and respond with positive change that will over time earn the respect of the public. 


As I was walking I was thinking, how could the community have such a negative view of Tokyowheel. I found myself thinking, in relative frustration, ‘these people don’t understand… if only they knew the reality they wouldn’t be saying these things’. Then I came to a realization that I felt was very important. It’s impossible for anyone in the community to understand what we are doing or why, because we have not been transparent or gone to lengths to inform the public of these things. 


This forum discussion has signaled a time for change for Tokyowheel. Perhaps it’s perfect timing, perhaps we should have been operating in this way all along. Regardless, we will course correct now. We will make a positive change in our policy, specifically communication and how and what we communicate to the public and the cycling community. I feel that this is a very positive and necessary step, and I want to thank you all for facilitating this. It's a change for the better, for sure. You all have voiced that opinion, and I agree. I think now is the time, and we are ready to make this next step in our evolution. 


If Tokyowheel, and my self as the ultimate person in charge, can communicate better the reality of the situation, I think you would all have a positive impression of Tokyowheel and what we are doing. I honestly think you would see us as 'good guys’, and would agree with most, if not all, of our decisions. Moving forward, our goal, as a company, and my goal as a leader, is to communicate more about our plans, what we have done, what we are doing, and why we are doing it that way. We'll explain to the public community more of our history, processes, vision, and plans. Without this information being public, it must be very hard for concerned members of the community to form a thorough mental image of Tokyowheel as long term company.


I would also like to directly address the inquiries and concerns about our suppliers, manufacturing, and manufacturing partners. I understand this concern, I know the situation of the industry and you concerns are very valid. I want to be completely transparent with you, and give you every last piece of pertinent information. Usually companies don’t like to publicize this information, but I would like to. I am not going to publicize this information on this specific forum post because I would like to frame the information appropriately. What I mean by that is, the construction of a supply chain is a series of many critical business decisions. And with all business decisions, It’s important to understand what came before that decision, and what are the plans for after that decision. Only then can the decision’s appropriateness be evaluated. I would like the chance to frame the discussion of our supply chain with the factual background and future vision necessary for the average person to understand how and why those specific decisions were made. This is the transparency and communication that we have not been doing, and from now on we make this part of our identity.


Also, there is another important aspect of communication that we have been negligent in. I don’t think there are many people out there that know who I am (James Ferrer), and in effect Tokyowheel has been an anonymous online entity. I’ll just speak about myself now, and not the company as a whole. I have realized that this makes it very difficult for the community to decide if I am a ‘good guy’ or a ‘bad guy’. The internet can be full of bad people, so I understand that the default reaction is to think of me as a ‘bad guy’. That’s a very understandable reaction, and I don’t hold it against anyone. I have not shared my story or any part of my personality publicly. This is a mistake that I will begin to correct immediately. I hope to share more of who I am, because aspects of that identity are directly reflected in the company I run. Although I am not naturally comfortable at ‘talking myself up’, I will try to give you a look into who I am, as a man. I think you will decide that not only is my story inspiring, and I am a ‘good guy’, but that the way I approach running this company has elements of forward thinking genius (I do feel a bit embarrassed to speak that way about myself, but I will overcome that mindset, and in the future I will try to strike a balance that is neither self depreciating, nor hyperbole.)


To recap, I have realized that the core issue here is lack of communication, and the mission of Tokyowheel and myself as a leader will now be to communicate fully and transparently. We will give you not just the small pieces of information, that we want you to know, but the full history and future vision necessary to understand our actions in context. 


This is not an instant resolution for some of the valid concerns that have been addressed, but I think that you will find, if you suspend disbelief until you have all the information, you will come to understand our decisions in a very positive light. 


I would like to begin this immediately, so I have prepared some information to share with you. At the beginning of this post I mentioned that I made these realizations last week while taking a morning walk to our factory to prep for a video shoot. As soon as I made these realizations, I decided to take action, and I made 2 audio recordings for you. The audio quality is not very good, I was just talking into my iPhone, and my oration is certainly not as good as I would like it to be. But, I feel that to begin the necessary process of sharing with more transparency, and for members of the community to begin the process of getting to know myself, and Tokyowheel, it is necessary that you hear the real word as they were spoken. Email and forum posts are certainly a filtered form of communication, but the audio recordings I have prepared for you are the real thing, unscripted, my honest words. I realize that not everyone wants to listen to 7 minutes and 40 seconds and 16 minutes and 21 seconds of audio, so I have transcribed them into text. But I would urge the community members that feel most negatively, those that might feel that I am a ‘bad guy’, to take a moment to hear my voice, and get a better feel for the situation at hand, by listening to what I have to say. Going forward I am not sure the specifics of how this new communication policy will take shape, perhaps it’s better blogging, a public Tokyowheel forum, podcast, or Youtube channel. I am not sure, but I am committed to getting this information out to you, to aid you in forming your own educated opinions. 


So please allow me to begin, and to thank those forum posters that have facilitated this incredibly positive ‘course correction’ for Tokyowheel. 


In order to begin understanding Tokyowheel you would first want to understand the Tokyowheel Master Plan. This is a 3 part, long term plan that has been in place already for about 4 years. I have recorded a description of the Tokyowheel Master Plan in the following linked .mp3 file [00:07:40 6.4mb] http://bit.ly/1dXrksN
Have a listen to that, and you will have a broad idea of our history as a company, our current state, and our vision for the future. 


Secondly, I would like to share some of my personal story, and how I came to start Tokyowheel. I have recorded this as audio, as well. You can listen to The History of James and Tokyowheel in the following linked .mp3 file [00:16:21 13.7mb] http://bit.ly/1hn9oCR


(I will include both transcriptions at the end of this post)


I strongly urge you to listen to this audio, and ask for your forgiveness about my speaking skill. I will do my best to improve. 


Two last things:


Firstly, thank you all for your comments and feedback, as you can see we have a mix of positive and negative comments. I have noted that the positive feedback is coming from paying customers and the negative feedback is coming from non-customers, or prospective customers. This negative feedback is absolutely the most valuable asset to our company, and make my leadership much more straight forward. We will put our full power into changing for the better in any situation where there is legitimate negative feedback, so please if anyone else has any comments or suggestions or questions, please don’t hesitate to vocalize them. 


Lastly, I realized that I forgot to include an interesting personal story into the recording I made, so I’ll share that briefly here  I am a US citizen and grew up just outside of Washington DC (in Virginia). When I entered the first grade, my family happened to live next to a public school that was specially chosen by the US Government as test case for a program they hoped to roll out nation wide. They called this the ‘Japanese Immersion Program’, and I had the good fortune to be in the first group, of about 60 children, to be included in this program. What that meant was from the age of 6, I was given special schooling. Every day I was taught for half of the day in only Japanese by a native Japanese speaker, whom could speak very little, to no, English. The subjects they taught were math, science, and Japanese. For the other half of the day I was taught by a normal English speaking teacher. As you can imagine that was a very frustrating and challenging situation for a young kid. I continued this style of education through the 6th grade, and then continued instruction in Japanese throughout Middle School, High School, and University. FYI, my degree is in Nuclear Physics. You’ll hear the rest of the general story in the audio, and transcription, but then I moved to Japan and eventually started my first company there. To the best of my knowledge I am the first US citizen to be instructed in Japanese throughout all of my public schooling, and go to Japan and start a company. 


If you had ever wondered, ‘why is an American running a company in Japan?’, that’s why  Thanks for listening!






———————
Begin Audio Transcriptions


Tokyowheel Master Plan [00:07:40 6.4mb] http://bit.ly/1dXrksN


Tokyowheel has always been following a 3 part master plan. In the first phase we sold a product that was made by another company and branded to another company. We did this in Japan. In that phase what we proved was that we could run an efficient business, a successful business, and get the products to the customers, support them, and market to them effectively. This is where we also began to implement a few of the innovative manufacturing processes that we use today. We slowly began offloading the manufacturing responsibility from the original brand factory of our product, to us. We have completed that phase. 


The second phase of the Tokyowheel Master Plan is that we would partner with existing manufacturers. We would find the best and most capable manufacturers in the industry, they might be well known or unknown. We would partner with them and we would release the first Tokyowheel branded products. In this phase what we are doing is, we are beginning to innovate on the business models and policies of Tokyowheel, as well as leading the manufacturers to make the improvements and changes in their processes that are necessary for our future plans. This is the Elite and Epic series wheels from Tokyowheel. Which are just phenomenal products, and they are being incredibly well received. 


We are working with the manufacturers to improve their ability to make these products, and we are also innovating on the business model and policy side. So that would be things like: free shipping worldwide, 110% guaranteed no customs taxes, 365 day test ride, the just in time manufacturing and the way that we allow customization of every customers product, and the way that we're approaching support with this phenomenal personalized support and two way communication with the community. This is also the phase that we will bring the brand of Tokyowheel to maturity, and allow our customers to really become a part of that brand. 


The Third Phase of the Tokyowheel Master Plan is where we continue with the manufacturing and supply chain infrastructure that we began and further developed in Phase 2, and we begin to release the innovations in the products that we have planned. This is the phase where we just blow everyone out of the water, where we lead the industry to the next level. The big, the old, companies are left behind and we lead into the new generation of industry leaders. This is where we are going to bring to market technological innovation in the product and performance innovations that are just so far beyond what anyone is doing now. 


Because we have done the groundwork of Phase 2 we'll be able to get those products to potentially every human on the planet as easily as anyone else, all at a price point that is far below what the industry leaders are charging today. 


To get to that point, Phase 3, we must complete the first two phases or else we won't be able to bring those innovations to the market on a large scale. 


Our mission has always been to support riders worldwide. We accept this as a broad mission, greater than simply selling units of bicycle wheels. We are going to continue with that mission as the center of everything we do. We are going to support you, and the riding community of the world. We do ask for support back from that community to help us to get to the point where we can do what we fully envision for the community. It's not something that can be done overnight, and it's not something that we can do without successive iterations. So we ask that the people who believe in Tokyowheel, believe in the future of Tokyowheel, and the future of the cycling industry as well. And we are committed to bringing that future to reality. 




————————


History of James and Tokyowheel [00:16:21 13.7mb] http://bit.ly/1hn9oCR


What's my background, how did I get into this? 


Well, certainly it's been a long and continuous path. I was very fortunate to, at a young age, be completely committed to the path that i'm on now. Which has allowed me to accelerate to the point that i'm at, more efficiently than i would have if I wasn’t internally guided throughout my life. So my original vision from a very young age has never changed. I don't know if it makes any more, or less, sense now then it did when I was 5 or 6 years old and people asked me, ‘What do you want to do when you grow up?', and I would always repeat exactly the same thing. I would say, 'I want make things?'. They would say, 'Well, what do you want to make?', 'I want to make something that does something.' And that's the point where people looked at me like, ‘what are you talking about?’, ‘what is this kid talking about?’. But that made very clear sense to me, in my mind. That I wanted to create something that had a function beyond just being an object. And I felt that, that was what I was meant to do. I've always worked very dedicatedly towards that original mission. And i've never changed that original mission. And that is at the heart, for myself as an individual, the mission of Tokyowheel. 


From there I went through my schooling. I chose to study physics and engineering in High School. I studied nuclear physics and got my degree, my Bachelors of Science, in Nuclear Physics in University. But to me that was just a necessary ground work, to make something, anything. I chose that as my degree because I knew that it was the most difficult option available to me at my university, but I never felt that I was Physicist, I felt that I was training my mind, in the most strenuous way possible. I also became very successful in industrial design. I formed a position in the university that didn't exist previously, which was Apprentice To The Master Prototype Machinist. So then I had access to the prototype machine shop, where I would learn from the Master, the process of prototyping in metal and Lexan. And very high precision use of milling and lathing. We were also just at that time beginning to experiment with rapid prototyping and injection moulding. So that was what was really interesting me. 


I didn't see it at the time, but this is also when I had this strange attraction to bicycle wheels, after my father gave me his road bike. And he had this aluminum frame road bike, which was really nothing special, but on it he had this awesome set of Campy Zonda, alloy, deep dish, low spoke count wheels. And those we just so cool, I felt so awesome riding that bike when it had those cool wheels on it. From there I was just really interested in different types of riding, and that brought me to riding 1 meter diameter road unicycle. So it was a 1 meter wire wheel, and I just loved that. It was an experience and a ride that was so different. That's when I started to realize that ‘Oh the key is the wheel! You change the wheel, you change everything.' From there I transitioned into single speed and to fixed gear, and I felt really at one with fixed gear road bike riding. Long hard climbs in the mountains on a fixed gear. I felt that, that was my thing. That's what really ingrained into me this idea that bicycles are a good thing, and they are completely positive for the world. 


As soon as I graduated from university, I flew to Japan. I came there with the purpose that I was going to be a designer. That was the next thing for me ' I'm going to be a Designer, whatever that means.' I flew to Japan, I had arranged a working home stay... I was, I wouldn't say unprepared, but ultimately yes, unprepared for what awaited me. And I ended up as a cabbage farmer in rural Gunma, which is a couple hours away from Tokyo. Waking up at 4:30AM every day, cutting cabbage all day long, for no pay, just room and board. So, I started there as a migrant worker in Japan. I was at level zero. But I was really happy, I was totally loving it. I had only my two main possessions, which was my laptop, my mac, and my bike. And that was enough for me. And surprisingly or not, it's still in general is enough for me. 


From there I worked in Japan, tried to get up to the point where I had enough stability. Then I began freelancing in all types of media production and design. Then I worked for a web and media design company. Then I started my own web and advertising media design company. At that point I got really proficient in designing web sites. It was very much a conscious point to me that I didn't have access to a workshop, and I wasn't able to make physical objects at that time. And so my efforts went into doing what I could do, which was making digital products and digital things. In hindsight, that was a great step. 


From there, after I continuously exceeded the competency of my clients. And the values of my services as a web design firm were not being fully utilized on my clients, that's when I transitioned to physical products, and that's the point at which I began the first phase of the 3 Part Tokyowheel Master Plan. Which, in short is longterm vision for Tokyowheel, and for how to bring advanced innovations to the market. 


The first Phase of that was Tokyowheel in Japan, where we imported a made in USA carbon wheel, and sold it in Japan domestically. And ironically enough, over time, because of the insufficiencies of the manufacturing in that specific facility, in Michigan, over time we began to take on manufacturing responsibilities. First it was final assembly, then it was finishing and painting, and then when we wanted to innovate more, it was clear that we had passed the first Phase of the Master Plan, and that it was time for the Second Phase. 


So we took all of the ground work that had been laid, and we transitioned into Phase 2 which was to partner with the best manufacturers around the world, to actualize the first Tokyowheel brand products. And innovate on our business models and policies as well as lead the manufacturers to improve their processes, to improve that generation of product, but more so prepare for the next generation of products that would not be currently possible with the current state of the art of manufacturing in this industry. So this is basically the Phase that we're in now. 


Our products, the Tokyowheel Epic and Elite road bike wheels are amazing. We've done a really great job with them. We've been supported very well by our manufacturing partners, and we've become closer and closer working with our manufacturing partners to the point where we are now directing their vision for how they will improve. So that's been a very big win, for us, to be able to climb so rapidly up the food chain to the point where we're now positioned to go beyond what is in the industry. 


Although I can't give the specifics, the vision for the next generation of products, specifically as it pertains to cycling and bike wheels, it's a very exciting time that we are about to begin. The bicycle wheel is something that has been very much unchanged, and with the advent of carbon wheels, and carbon rims, we've seen a massive boost in performance and riding enjoyment, for professional and amateur enthusiast. And that's just a material advancement, so the things that we have in store for Phase 3 of the Master Plan, I'm sure that riders all over the world are going to very much appreciate our efforts, and are going to love the results of this very focused and unrelenting pursuit towards where we are today. 


———————
If you read this far, my deepest thanks goes out to you! Let me know if you have any questions, or need anything. Thanks!


P.S. Here is a picture of me, incase you were wondering what I look like


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## mambo

Hi James,

Thank you for your reply. Whilst your plans sound exiting and you sound genuinely enthusiastic about your current product and company future, you have not addressed the main concerns raised in this thread and that is that the products being offered by Tokyowheel are identical to those being apparently being offered by Farsports for half the price.

The wheel specification is absolutely identical, weight etc.
The photographs and specification of the hubs are also identical.

There can only be a limited number of scenarios.

1. Farsports are misrepresenting the product they will actually send the client and using the specifications of your wheels to make the product they sell look better on their webpage. The product they actually send will be inferior. (Unlikely).
2. Tokyowheel have developed and designed these wheels as you stated earlier in the thread and somehow Farsports have obtained these wheels from the manufacturer to sell as well. (I don't know whether Farsports manufacture their own wheels.) In this case Tokyowheels should be taking action to stop this.
3. These are wheels that are readily available to any reseller direct from the manufacturer.

I was forum member who was a genuine possible customer investigating your product . I actually have an invoice from Farsports for the purchase of one pair of tubular wheels with a high spoke count for training and one pair of rims I will have built with Chris King R45 hubs for racing. The idea being that I can swop the wheels out without having to adjust anything by having identical rims. I didn't join the thread to have a go at you or your company, but look at it from this side. With the facts at hand it does appear that you are selling the same product as Farsport at half the price, unless proven otherwise, we have a right to raise these concerns and be more than a little upset.


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## ericm979

mambo said:


> it does appear that you are selling the same product as Farsport at half the price


I think that's not what you meant to write....


FarSports sells decent CF rims. They are a trading house, I forget who the actual manufacturer is but it's been posted. I have a set I built up, a set on wheels they built, and another set of wheels on order. They're not perfect but acceptable (clearly, since I just ordered another set of wheels).

It would be worth paying significantly more than FarSport's single unit price to have a stocking US distributor who handles warranty and does a final QC check. But a seller in Japan has nearly the same shipping costs to the US as China. And I can't tell from the voluminous yet content-light posts if they keep wheels in stock or do QC.

In any case if I was interested in buying from such a dealer I'd go with Williams since they are local to me.


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## tihsepa

I cant believe anyone would even entertain this joker. 

This Tokyo wheel guy could fertilize 40 acres with his post above.


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## Z'mer

tihsepa said:


> I cant believe anyone would even entertain this joker.
> 
> This Tokyo wheel guy could fertilize 40 acres with his post above.


+1 
per WC Fields 
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t.”Lots of non USA native tongue baffling going on above.


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## TricrossRich

Wheels look ok to me and the price is right.... I don't think the OP is a fake poster, but I am a little disappointed that there's no disc brake options.


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## Bob Dopolina

Hi fricken' larious. 

Good luck shaking up the industry and sweeping aside the big players with innovative ideas like JIT manufacturing although how this buzzword or even the actual concept would apply to a wheel brand is beyond me. 

So...none of the questions I raised earlier have been addressed. None. Perhaps on your way home tonight you could make a podcast to address these questions?


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## Bob Dopolina

Duplicate post.


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## ergott

JamesFerrer said:


> Thanks everyone for your discussion on this thread, sorry for my slow response.
> 
> It was about one week ago, I was taking a morning walk to our factory, to prep for our factory tour video shoot.


How about a cellphone pic or two of the factory? I'm sure that would alleviate people's concerns.


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## ericm979

Bob Dopolina said:


> JIT


...Bag


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## mambo

ergott said:


> How about a cellphone pic or two of the factory? I'm sure that would alleviate people's concerns.


No it wouldn't.

You just need to browse the web to find these and anyway the factory could be producing the wheels for anybody and everybody!


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## mambo

ericm979 said:


> I think that's not what you meant to write....
> 
> 
> FarSports sells decent CF rims. They are a trading house, I forget who the actual manufacturer is but it's been posted.
> 
> It's exactly what I meant to write!


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## ericm979

mambo said:


> It's exactly what I meant to write!


That Tokoyo is selling Farsport stuff at half the price Farsport charges?

If that was the case no one would be giving them a hard time other than for the excess verbiage of their posts.


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## jmorgan

From their website. 

"We developed *DuraHeart-R* carbon resin for use on all our braking surfaces, which withstands and dissipates the heat of braking more effectively."

Kind of like Dura-Ace but better, DuraHeart-R lol


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## mambo

ericm979 said:


> That Tokoyo is selling Farsport stuff at half the price Farsport charges?
> 
> If that was the case no one would be giving them a hard time other than for the excess verbiage of their posts.


Sorry, my mistake!

Farsport are selling at half the price.

Apologies all round....


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## Oxtox

wonder if Tokyo wheelguy knows what tfl:dr means.

he should have started his last post with, "...and there was this one time at band camp..."

I might have plowed thru that mess then...


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## Cinelli 82220

JamesFerrer said:


> To recap, I have realized that the core issue here is lack of communication


You've said more than you think.


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## Cinelli 82220

mambo said:


> No it wouldn't.


And nobody would believe anything he says or posts anyway.


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## Cinelli 82220

JamesFerrer said:


> We build our Manufactured in USA wheels in Tokyo


Pretty much sums it up right there.

What a load of BS.


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## JamesFerrer

Hi Guys,


Sorry for not replying earlier but I have been snowed under with filming the manufacturing process at our Chinese factory and taking advantage of the trip to discuss improvements to our rim designs with the manufacturer. I would like to apologize to those of you who read my last comments and in my defense I can only say that I have very little experience of participating forums and it shows that I didn’t know how to handle the situation!


As I mentioned earlier in the thread, we switched the manufacture of our rims to a factory in China that is one of the worlds’ largest OEM manufacturing facilities of carbon rims of varying qualities. Farsports wheels are one of the many wheels brands manufactured at this facility and therefore similar processes may be used in the manufacture of their own brand rims. However, our rims are produced in a proprietary mold for our rim shapes that involved many months of development, research and testing. Our input into that company’s manufacturing process has led to improvements in their own manufacturing methods and quality control throughout the facility and we are now leading them and collaborating in the improvement and development of other areas of their rim manufacture. The new Duraheat-R braking surface used on our rims, which the manufacturer is now beginning to use on some of their other OEM rims, was developed and tested in collaboration with Tokyowheel. The basalt braking surface currently used on rims supplied by other sellers is the previous generation technology. Duraheat-R is a better performing material that is highly temperature resistant. We are also very excited about forthcoming products we are developing jointly with them.


Our wheels are built at a separate facility with an additional layer of quality control; therefore wheels received from Tokyowheel will not require any re-tensioning as is the case with some of the other brands mentioned on this thread. The wheels you receive from us will essentially be “plug and play”.


Obviously, because of our geographical location and the availability of hub and spoke choices at these price points, the parts we use to complete our wheel builds are common to most of the other wheel suppliers in Asia, hence the use of identical photographs as supplied to us by the relevant distributors. In fact, we source our Sapim spokes from Farsports as they are the Asian distributor! 


*Why pay more for Tokyowheels?*
We guarantee NO customs taxes.
Shipping costs (to any location worldwide) are included in the price.
Our wheels are guaranteed for 1 year from receipt of your Tokyowheels.
We are so confident in our product that we will refund 110% of the cost of your wheels if you are not satisfied with your purchase. We even give you a full year to try them! We will also pay the cost of shipping back to us if you are not satisfied within 365 days of receiving your Tokyowheels.


I hope this helps to clear up some of the concerns raised in this thread and I welcome any comments, criticisms or suggestions. I also hope it helps you understand us and our approach a little better. We are service and quality driven and any input helps us evaluate what we are doing and how we can improve all aspects of how customers perceive our business and the quality of our products. Thanks!


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## Bob Dopolina

Farsports is not the Asian OE distributor.

They are the aftermarket distibutor for China.

If you assemble wheels in Taiwan you deal with Toni at Salloy, or, if you are big enough, with Sapim directly.

Please explain how your basalt is applied and why it is done that way.

What are the failure temps? What was the testing protocol? Do you have CE, UCI or SGS test reports or certification?

How does your lay-up differ from Far-Sports?

If YOU own the molds why are they selling thew EXACT rims shapes as you?

You mentioned 'digital testing' for your rims. What is this and why is it different from tyhe DIN tests used by the rest of the industry?


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## mambo

HI James,

Thanks for your belated reply, I had just about given up on you.

From what I can gather, you offer a product that is similar to the Farsports design. Obviously the braking surface treatment appears to be better and that is important to me living in a very hilly area. Though as Bob points out it would be nice to see some data.

However, even for a similar product, I can understand why you need to charge more for your rims. Farsports quoted me $230 to ship, as your shipping is free I would need to factor that in. Also I cannot try the rims for a year, return them and get 110% of my money back!! I hadn't realised that looking at your website. Farsports and other Chinese sellers do not offer 50% crash replacement either. Adding all this up, it brings things a little more into perspective and there is considerable value at least for me in those terms and conditions of sale. Can I ask how long you have been in business? After all I need to know you will still be around to offer crash replacement!

Finally I will make a proposal to you. I have a good friend in the USA who is a master wheelbuilder. In fact not that long ago he identified a design fault in Enve rims and provided them with a solution. Would you be willing to send me a set of rims to his address in the US for him to build up for me (Tune Mig - Mag 70 - 170 hubs) and use his testing protocols on them? I don't see rims listed on your website, but am willing to take a chance on them if you can give me a reasonable price. I think an independent report will be valuable to all future Tokyo wheel customers assuming it is a positive one of course. I hope you are brave enough to take up the challenge...............


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## mambo

I have spoken to my wheelbuilder friend, and he has agreed to provide a detailed written data-driven report on the rims and build. James, the ball is in your court now.


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## JamesFerrer

Hi Bob & Mambo,


Thanks for your replies and questions.


Mambo, our company has been in business for four years now and we have plans to expand our range of wheels with two new models to be released later this year. We have no plans to close in the near future.


I think our clients understand the added value that comes with our rims – no customs fees, 110% money back if not satisfied, crash replacement etc.


I have no problem sending your wheel builder a set of rims to do with as he pleases, and I will go one step further. I will also send him a set of wheels as we would to any other customer and he can test those too. Please PM me with his contact details and I will liaise with you both to get this done. I am definitely interested to see what his views are and am confident that our product will stack up at the price.


Bob,




> “Farsports is not the Asian OE distributor. They are the aftermarket distributor for China.”


I obtain my Sapim spokes from Farsports and they are listed as the distributor on the link you provided. 




> “If you assemble wheels in Taiwan you deal with Toni at Salloy, or, if you are big enough, with Sapim directly.”


I have clearly stated I switched manufacturing some time ago from Taiwan to China.




> “Please explain how your basalt is applied and why it is done that way.”


We moved away from basalt braking surfaces recently and developed the Duraheat-R process in collaboration with the factory. Duraheat-R is a Tokyowheel trademark. Without giving too much away as it is a proprietary process and is one of the unique reasons why our wheels perform better on braking and it also helps make them more aesthetically pleasing as it makes for a better finish on the final product. Before we put the carbon layup into mold, the braking surface and the surface layer of the carbon rim - which is effectively cosmetic, - are glued into the mold first, as opposed to putting the braking surface directly on to the layup before placing it in the mold. 




> “What are the failure temps?”


The Duraheat-R is a 2 part material technology. The Duraheat-R resin is temperature resistant to 220 degrees Celsius which means that when you brake hard and your rim heats up due to friction, it won't delaminate or melt the carbon resin. The Duraheat-R carbon cloth also has thermally conductive filaments woven into it. These filaments help to spread heat away from any hotspots on the rim, keeping the max temperate on the rim lower. This creates a rim that can handle more stopping force with greater durability. 




> “What was the testing protocol? Do you have CE, UCI or SGS test reports or certification?”


Our fundamental testing standard is EN 14781.


In addition to that, our testing protocol is as follows:
After molding and before wheelbuilding, we verify (with micrometers and a digital scale) that each rim’s roundness, lateral offset, and weight are within tolerances. We also test the braking surface width to ensure that the braking will be smooth and consistent. 


We then test a random sampling from each batch of rims for braking performance and rim stiffness in our digital testing lab. This a key part of the manufacturing process and is one of the reasons why our wheels perform so well. 


We run the wheel up to 30kph and then we apply a braking force and measure 7 performance variables, such as deceleration, stopping distance, and very importantly average and maximum rim temperature. By measuring these things we are able to continuously improve the braking performance of our wheels and their durability under heavy braking conditions. 


We test the stiffness of a section of rim laced to a spoke by applying a 3000 newton force to the spoke and measuring rim deflection in thousandths of a millimeter. This lets us optimize the stiffness of the rims, which results in more power transferred from the rider through the wheel into the road. 


Our wheel building process is as follows: 


We lace the spokes to the rim and true the wheel at low tension.

We exercise the spokes so that they can be ideally positioned for further tensioning. We then bring the spokes up to equal tension and measure with a micrometer and tensionometer. 


Next we stress relieve the wheel by applying a sideways force on the hub with a machine. This essentially replaces the 'break in' period that you would experience with a new wheel and allows our wheels to stay truer throughout the life of the wheel. After a final truing they are ready for finishing. 




> “How does your lay-up differ from Far-Sports?”


I cannot make any comments on other companies products.




> “If YOU own the molds why are they selling the EXACT rims shapes as you?”


I don’t know how similar the rims shapes are, certainly the measurements are the same, though from simple diagrams it would be hard to appreciate minor differences in the rim shapes.


Once we have finished editing the footage we took at the factory, you will be able to see many of the processes described above. However, please see the screengrabs I have taken from the factory tour video.

Carbon Prepreg







Preliminary Layup







Braking Surface and Finish Layer of Carbon in Mold







Layup in Mold







Initial Roundness, Braking Surface Width, and Weight QC







CNC Spoke Hole Drilling







Digital Braking Surface Testing







Digital Rim Stiffness Testing







Wheelbuilding Workstation


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## mambo

Hi James,

Your reply is all that I could have asked for. I think all our respective questions have been answered - at least for now I am satisfied. I will PM you now to liaise with sending the rims and wheels to Mark Stemmy for building/testing. I am certain that those of us following this thread will be interested in some "real world" results from a reliable, independent source. I certainly understand the added value of the guarantees you provide being built into the price and this is one of the reasons I was looking at the possibility of a purchase. To make it clear, I will pay for the rims (hopefully we can agree a decent price given that I am taking an element of risk), this will avoid any suspicion of a favourable review in return for free rims (though I am certain that Mark certainly would not compromise his reputation with false results, and I wouldn't put him in that position). If Mark is happy with the wheels, I will put my money where my mouth is and order a set of wheels from you for training at your normal retail price. I think this is fair to both of us.

It was great to see some photo's of the factory and wheel building process


----------



## mikerp

James,
Nice write up, I admire your openness/disclosure it makes for a great business foundation.
From my end I'd be interested in rims only, you may want to consider this as a sales option, might lead to more business with custom wheel builders as well.
Mike


----------



## ergott

Looks great. I would seriously consider what I said about your name though. Specialized is very keen on pursuing companies that use names that they own pertaining to the cycling industry. You might find a cease and desist letter from them over the name Epic since they use that name for their mountain bike suspension.

Epic Wheel Works will change name due to potential trademark conflict with Specialized | BikePortland.org

Specialized sues Volagi over Liscio road bike - VeloNews.com

Specialized Pressures Canadian Bike Shop To Change Name | Cyclingnews.com

The list goes on.


----------



## mikerp

They recently went after NeilPryde for their Alize (too close to Allez), NP changed the name to Nazare. 
NeilPryde Bikes renames its Alizé bike following trademark dispute... with Specialized again | road.cc


----------



## mambo

This is why I refuse to purchase anything Specialized. They spent near enough $2 million on that Volagi lawsuit and got $1 awarded in damages. That serves them right for being bullies. Who pays that $2 million? -Specialized customers who are happy to pay over the odds for what are not essentially great bikes to start with! IMHO of course. 

I still can't get my head around private companies being able to trademark geographical names such as Roubaix. That also ended up in a debacle for Spesh!

Just to update you guys, I have PM'd James Ferrer and will liaise with him to get the wheels and rims sent to Mark in the US. 

I am having some issues with obtaining Tune hubs so am stumped about what to purchase......

I have just started this thread:

Hub choice quandary

Perhaps you can help.


----------



## mambo

Just thought I would update you guys. James has now prepared the order for dispatch. they should be in the US in the next 7 to 10 days.

The wheel set are clinchers as these are his best selling product. The rims are for tubular and these will finally be built with White Industries T11 hubs and Sapim CX ray spokes. I took the advice of the wheel builders on the thread I started as per my previous post, including Mark's advice (he will be building them) and Eric (Ergott) who has participated in this thread.


----------



## mambo

Just to update you Mark 'the wheel whisperer'™ Stemmy (lol) has now received the wheels and rims. He is a bit busy with work at the moment but will get around to checking, testing and reviewing over the coming days.

He will also post how he is going to carry out his evaluation.


----------



## muno

Would be nice to see how it goes. Please keep it updated.


----------



## tallrider721

Hi RBR Forum,

This is Mark Stemmy from Optimized Cycling Solutions. For those that have not already been following this thread, I am a wheel builder, custom bike dealer and industry consultant located in Northern California. I’ve been asked by James Ferrer at Tokyo Wheels to evaluate and review a set of their wheels. Brands I have built and/or collaborated with in the past are ENVE, HED, Stan’s, Mavic for rims and Alchemy, White Industries, Chris King, Stealth and Campagnolo for hubs, among others. 
I am very particular about the products I support and having spent 15 years in the silicon manufacturing industry I am very data and process driven. This will be a multi phase review including an initial inspection and evaluation, testing a set myself in the field (I am 6’4” and 235lbs currently), more extensive evaluation including wind tunnel testing against other brands, and a final report with my recommendation.

The current process will be the initial evaluation which will include, but not be limited to:

•	Spoke tension for each spoke
•	Average spoke tension for each side, on both wheels, expressed in kgf (kilograms of force)
•	Standard deviation (variations in total spoke tension, expressed in kgf)
•	Lateral runout (true)
•	Vertical runout (round)
•	Rim and hub dimensions
•	Wheel weight
•	Photos of the wheels, hubs, packaging and included accessories
•	Detailed photos of the inside of the rim at the spoke interface 
•	Measurement of relative hub rotational friction with the QR closed, using proprietary OCS methodology 
•	Final report rolling up both the hard data along with anecdotal observations 

I am working on multiple projects right now so it will likely be a week before I am able to complete the report. I will share a link to the report once it is complete.

I will also be building a set of wheels for Mambo, the rims for which have arrived, so I will be able to do a separate assessment of that process, as well as getting actual rim weight, as opposed to complete wheel weight.

Regards,
Mark


----------



## mambo

tallrider721 said:


> Hi RBR Forum,
> 
> more extensive evaluation including wind tunnel testing against other brands,
> Regards,
> 
> Mark


Wind tunnel comparison against other brands? Where did that one come from? Took me by surprise!

Mark and James, I would recommend that for forum members to have peace of mind, an independent third party be involved in the test and comparison and collate the results. Some forum members suspect that there may be an underhand collaboration involved and this would go some way to allaying their fears. To date wind tunnel data I have seen, has been prepared by the wheel brand carrying out the testing on their own wheels - I always suspect that the results are skewed in favour of the brand. 

I recently saw a post on one of the forums somewhere where somebody offered to do independent wind tunnel testing of Flo wheels if forum members stumped in to help with costs (this would actually be a good brand to compare against as they are a similar spec and price bracket. I considered Flo, but they didn't do tubular and I felt they were too heavy for the type of riding I do anyway). I don't know what others think but I would like to see a comparison with what I consider to be the benchmark - ENVE 3.4's. For me it would be interesting to see just how wide the performance gap is between a $3,000.00 wheel and a $1,000.00 'reliably' Chinese manufactured wheel.

I will post this on the other TW related threads.

Just my thoughts....


----------



## LVbob

@mambo-

At this point, I think it would be best if you stepped back from this thread. Both Mark and James are here to speak for themselves. Forum members will think whatever they think regardless of how many parties are involved and how thorough the testing is.

Just let this play out however it does and then give your impressions when you receive your set of built wheels.


----------



## mambo

As the instigator of the test, and having had doubts cast on the integrity of my proposals, I feel I have the right to voice my opinion. However, I agree with you and had already decided no further input would be required until I test my own set.


----------



## holsen

I just got my set of Tokyo Wheels (38 /50) built around DT Swiss 240s Straight pulls and I am very happy. I was skeptical and I read pretty much every thread on every forum I could find including this one. I also asked James Ferrer alot of questions by email and was amazed at the speed of his responsiveness. Then I compared the specs of Tokyo Wheels against those being offered by Far Sports, Yoleo, all the ebay sellers, Alibaba - and the Tokyo Wheels are indeed different. Pretty much all the other sellers have the same diameter wheels and they all have a rim width of between 20.5 and 23, My Tokyos are 25.5 in the front and 26 in the rear and having come to the conclusion that they are not "same as" - I bought them and am very happy with them. From time of order to receipt was exactly 7 days (To Canada) and they look beautiful, roll perfectly true and are indeed very stiff. I took them into my LBS who build a lot of custom wheels and they were impressed too. So from my perspective, Tokyo Wheel and James Ferrer are the real deal and the product is not just a higher priced re-brand or generic, they are unique ... I'm sold.


----------



## muno

How is it going with the testing?


----------



## mambo

muno said:


> How is it going with the testing?


Hi Muno,

Mark updated me yesterday, he has just finished the first phase of his testing and observations on the clincher wheel set and has captured the relevant data. He was going to write up a report to post over the next couple of days. He will then start on the rims.

Unfortunately it has caught him at quite a busy time for us as he not only has his own business to run, but we are both collaborating on setting up our own bike brands as well as some joint projects.


----------



## split

Any update?


----------



## heffdiddy

waiting :17:


----------



## tallrider721

RBR Forum users, 

Sorry for making you all wait so long and I appreciate your patience. I am juggling a lot of projects right now, plus running a retail business. However, the report is nearly finished and should be posted on my website either tomorrow or Friday. I will post a new thread here on RBR as well as the link here on this thread. 

Here are a few sample photos from the report to tide you over.

Again, thanks for being patient.




















Mark


----------



## muno

Thanks tallrider721,

Really looking forward to it. I think this will be the first time, when someone actually have done something like this.


----------



## TricrossRich

Bueller? anyone, Bueller? any update on this?


----------



## mambo

Mark emailed me this morning to tell me he will post it either tomorrow or the day after. The report is complete now.


----------



## ergott

I wouldn't be surprised if they test well. The most important differences between carbon rims is in braking performance and aerodynamic performance. Braking performance in varying conditions is important, but so is heat management. By aerodynamic performance I mean not only wind tunnel testing, but handling in gusty winds. I don't think these aspects are within the scope of his testing unless he has a lot of free time and money to devote to this.

Most carbon rims build up well and give a rider a good first impression.


----------



## muno

well, i think this is the review:
REVIEW: Tokyowheel Epic 38/50 wheelset Optimitized Cycling Solutions - 530-363-2697


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## mambo

Hi Muno,

Mark is currently making the final changes as we 'speak' should be finished in the next half hour (10.15 GMT). There is one important point still missing that he needs to add.


----------



## ergott

Just some constructive criticism.

"The cassette body looks to be made of aluminum and appears to be shot peened and anodized." This doesn't sound very "expert". Anyone how has held those freehub bodies in their hands knows they as described. To say it "appears" to be makes me wonder why you aren't more sure of yourself.

"I assume they are present to control the settling of the spokes in an effort to encourage stable tension." I don't know what you are getting at here. Spoke washers aren't for stabilizing tension or for settling spokes. Brandt and Schraner have some great books for further reading on this and other general wheel building concepts.

The rear hub isn't laced 3X on the drive, it's 2X.

16.25mm drive is not comparable to better hubs. Good 11 speed hubs are 17mm and up. The wider left flange means the tension is low (64.5kfg). Those aren't good numbers and I wouldn't use CX-Rays on the drive side considering those hub dimensions.

I'm curious as to what "cycles" is. I assume rim weight isn't a factor, right?


----------



## tihsepa

Thanks ergot.

I am not impressed with tokyowheel or the review. The reviewer either did the write up very quickly or doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. Either way, it looks bad.


----------



## mambo

As I said earlier, the reviewer still had some changes/amendments to make to his report. This is why he hasn't yet posted the link here himself. 

I received an email just after my earlier post saying he hadn't been able to finish the report because he needed some sleep. (I have been working him quite hard on several other projects that take priority!) 

Given the number and quality of the photographs and presentation, the detailed data capture, as well as the fact that it's not completed yet, I think it is hardly fair to a) jump to any conclusions yet b) state that the review has been hurried.


----------



## ergott

*Re: Tokyo Wheel - Epic 60 - Carbon Clincher Wheelset - Recent Purchase*

If it's not done then it shouldn't have been published. That draft doesn't inspire confidence in the finished product, whatever it may be.


----------



## mambo

ergott said:


> If it's not done then it shouldn't have been published. That draft doesn't inspire confidence in the finished product, whatever it may be.


As I understand it when I spoke to him at around 1.30am his time, he had transferred it to his website as it was easier to copy and paste form his notes at that point. He had intended to finish it there and then, but I needed another report done for myself that was higher priority that diverted him from doing so. I have been running him hard for days on little sleep now as I have some pretty tight deadlines. I can see at least something that seems to have been copied from one of the other documents he is preparing for me that is also wheel related, rather than his notes for the Tokyowheel.

Furthermore, the objective of the report (which he is doing free of charge as a favour to me) is not to inspire confidence in the product as you seem to think, but rather to provide his objective views on the wheels in his capacity as an experienced wheel builder. As a wheel builder yourself who has spoken to him, you may hold a different opinion to him.


----------



## tallrider721

Hi all,

The Tokyowheel review on the Epic 38/50 clincher wheels has been posted here:

REVIEW: Tokyowheel Epic 38/50 wheelset Optimitized Cycling Solutions - 530-363-2697

Thanks for your patience and let me know if you have any questions. 

Mark


----------



## ergott

Sorry, but I have to ask about this.

_"In the photo below it looks as though there could be a bit of pull through at the rim."_
That is not a photo showing any "pull through". I've seen plenty of rims in the past that have been on the verge of pulling through and that's not it. I ran into this with the original Zipp 202 rims. There was a brief time when their drilling jig was a little off and the nipple holes were sometimes drilled out of spec. You wouldn't know it until you put tension in the rim which was a pain. The nipples would begin to pull through and give lots of warning before failure. 

I can take a similar picture of other carbon rims that look exactly like that photo from any number of manufacturers.

_"The rear has flange spacing of 16.5mm on the drive side and 38.3mm on the non-drive side. These offsets compare reasonably well to many of the high quality hubs on the market, though not on par with Alchemy hubs which have the widest offsets of any Shimano compatible 130mm hub I’ve yet seen at 19.6mm DS and 38.7mmNDS. By comparison DT 240S is 17.0mm DS and 33.2mm NDS, the White Industries T11 rear hub is 18.0mm DS and 35.0mm NDS. Just for reference, the DT 240s staightpull hubs have 16.0mm DS and 33.3mm NDS."_

The first draft had the hub at 16.25mm. How did that change? How are you accurately measuring this in a built up hub? I measure hubs before they are built up.

The Alchemy hub you mention is 10 speed specific which isn't a fair comparison. Their 11 speed hub is 18.1mm (still higher than any other I have measured).

T11 hub is not 18mm, where did you get that from?

DT 240 11 speed isn't 17mm either.

By the way I have a pair of Bitex SLF85W/SL218 hubs here and the dimensions are far better than the ones in those wheels. F=39.4mm, ND=37.3mm D=17.1mm


_" In this case the spokes are 2.0mm thick where they penetrate the hole in the flange, which I assume to be 2.3mm (it is not listed on the Bitex website). If the spoke hole in the flange is in fact 2.4mm that might be why Tokyowheels decided to use brass washers on the NDS."_

Where are you getting these measurements from? The range for spoke holes in most hubs is 2.35mm to 2.6mm. More importantly, washers are to take up space in builds where the elbow of the spoke is significantly longer than the width of the flange, not the diameter of the hole.

I know I spoke with the people involved here off-line, but I was expecting a far more thorough test battery. The information I've read here can be obtained from anyone with a tension meter, a nice camera and the published measurements of components. I consider the testing that Fairwheel bikes accomplishes to be more comprehensive and indicative of a real test of componentry. All the best of luck on future endeavors.


----------



## ergott

Getting back to the original wheels.

Honestly, for that price range you can do much better. Boyd sells a range of carbon clinchers profiles for $1400 and November sells two different models for $1500. Both use confirmed proprietary rims they designed. Boyd uses an in-house designed hub that's better than those included here and November uses White Industries T11 stock. November has also performed their own wind tunnel testing on their rim shapes.

Both are companies in the US and sell/service without waiting for shipping from around the globe. You can reach them by phone and chat wheels with guys that love riding bikes as much as I do.


----------



## tihsepa

tallrider721 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The Tokyowheel review on the Epic 38/50 clincher wheels has been posted here:
> 
> REVIEW: Tokyowheel Epic 38/50 wheelset Optimitized Cycling Solutions - 530-363-2697
> 
> Thanks for your patience and let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> Mark


You have a nice site.
Those wheels still suck.


----------



## mambo

> Sorry, but I have to ask about this.


I am not going to address any of the technical points because what I know about wheel building would fit on a pinhead. I will however address other issues.



> I can take a similar picture of other carbon rims that look exactly like that photo from any number of manufacturers.


I am certain that you can, but you're not the one who offered to do so.



> The first draft had the hub at 16.25mm. How did that change? How are you accurately measuring this in a built up hub? I measure hubs before they are built up.


Firstly, I made it clear in earlier posts that the 'draft' was just that - a draft. The original figure entered was copied and pasted from another document Mark is preparing for me for a set of prototype hubs. I am certain you measure hubs before they are built up, however these wheels arrived already built so I assume Mark didn't have the opportunity to measure the hubs in the way you suggest.



> T11 hub is not 18mm, where did you get that from?


Uuh... I just looked here?

White Industries - T11 Rear Hub

I imagine WI know the spec of their hubs.



> I know I spoke with the people involved here off-line


And I think this is exactly where your problem lies. 

Just so readers are aware, Eric (Ergott) contacted Mark to ask for details of a report Mark prepared for ENVE that caused ENVE (then EDGE COMPOSITES) to change their CF manufacturing process. Mark refused to send him a copy of the report but did offer to show it to him in person. I can only assume this is the reason Eric has made a point of not only casting doubt on the review, but being very confrontational about the whole review process.

Certainly if I were a professional wheel builder, I would approach things differently. Eric, you have Mark's contact details - what was there to stop you picking up the phone to obtain clarification of some of the points you bring up before openly casting doubts - unless of course you had an axe to grind...

The intention of this review was not to help TW sell wheels as you seem to be trying to imply, but rather for forum members to have an independent and impartial review of a set of TW wheels and make their own minds up. 

I believe the impartiality is clearly demonstrated by Mark identifying a bulge in the nipple area of the rim as being a _possible_ area of concern, whereas, you state that it's not at all! If I were the owner of TW I'd be thanking you profusely. 

James Ferrer was kind and confident enough to co-operate and submit a set of his wheels for review. I believe that pending Mark putting some miles on the wheels and posting his findings and additional data, so far, the objective has been achieved. 

Let the fun and games begin!


----------



## mambo

ergott said:


> Getting back to the original wheels.
> 
> Honestly, for that price range you can do much better. Boyd sells a range of carbon clinchers profiles for $1400 and November sells two different models for $1500. Both use confirmed proprietary rims they designed. Boyd uses an in-house designed hub that's better than those included here and November uses White Industries T11 stock. November has also performed their own wind tunnel testing on their rim shapes.
> 
> Both are companies in the US and sell/service without waiting for shipping from around the globe. You can reach them by phone and chat wheels with guys that love riding bikes as much as I do.


I am not saying that your assertions above are incorrect, those wheel may be way better than the offerings from TW, but for someone who seems to be such a stickler for detail, what data do you have to support your comments if you do not have a set of TW wheels for real comparison purposes, or did you just stick your finger in the air?

For me an important factor - especially because of where I live - is that you can try the TW wheels for 12 months and if you don't like them you can return them and get 110% of your money back.

I'd love to see either of the companies you mention, or any other for that fact, submit their wheels for a detailed review.


----------



## jaggrin

The wheel and tire forum always has the most drama.


----------



## mambo




----------



## ergott

mambo said:


> I am not going to address any of the technical points because what I know about wheel building would fit on a pinhead. I will however address other issues.
> 
> 
> 
> I am certain that you can, but you're not the one who offered to do so.


This "review" was well in place before I knew about anything. I'm quite happy getting preproduction and early samples from the likes of Pacenti, Alchemy, Flit, and others so as to provide them with initial impressions. If Tokyo wanted my expertise they could have contacted me like everyone else in the industry that does.



mambo said:


> Firstly, I made it clear in earlier posts that the 'draft' was just that - a draft. The original figure entered was copied and pasted from another document Mark is preparing for me for a set of prototype hubs. I am certain you measure hubs before they are built up, however these wheels arrived already built so I assume Mark didn't have the opportunity to measure the hubs in the way you suggest.


Then don't quote numbers. You keep mentioning the word draft. There's no acceptable excuse for publishing a webpage before it's done. You can type up a page and save the publish button for when it's actually done.


mambo said:


> Uuh... I just looked here?
> 
> White Industries - T11 Rear Hub
> 
> I imagine WI know the spec of their hubs.


Again, I measure all components here. I've corrected several major manufacturers including Enve (when they were Edge) with their initial published ERDs. There's nothing like a set of vernier calipers in capable hands. 

This is how it's really done.

























Also, Fairwheel agrees with me on the measured specs of the T11 hub as shown here. By the way, I had to correct their initial draft of the dimensions as well so it's nothing personal. 
2014 Road Hub Review - Fair Wheel Bikes



mambo said:


> And I think this is exactly where your problem lies.
> 
> Just so readers are aware, Eric (Ergott) contacted Mark to ask for details of a report Mark prepared for ENVE that caused ENVE (then EDGE COMPOSITES) to change their CF manufacturing process. Mark refused to send him a copy of the report but did offer to show it to him in person. I can only assume this is the reason Eric has made a point of not only casting doubt on the review, but being very confrontational about the whole review process.


That's not how it went down at all. You mentioned he found a flaw in Enve rims. I called Mark up and had a conversation with him because if there was a current flaw in the rims I wanted to know about it. Turns out he was talking about something from back when they were still Edge Composites. I didn't care to follow up on it as I could have easily called my friends (Jason or Jake) at Enve and found out what he was talking about. It really doesn't matter since that issues was many years ago.

If you think I started out being confrontational you need to reread things a bit. I offered constructive criticism and clarified facts. Marks a big boy he doesn't need you to step in and defend him.


mambo said:


> Certainly if I were a professional wheel builder, I would approach things differently. Eric, you have Mark's contact details - what was there to stop you picking up the phone to obtain clarification of some of the points you bring up before openly casting doubts - unless of course you had an axe to grind...


If you think I care enough about this matter that I have an "axe"(sic) to grind I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm merely correcting inaccurate numbers and false concepts. 


mambo said:


> The intention of this review was not to help TW sell wheels as you seem to be trying to imply, but rather for forum members to have an independent and impartial review of a set of TW wheels and make their own minds up.
> 
> I believe the impartiality is clearly demonstrated by Mark identifying a bulge in the nipple area of the rim as being a _possible_ area of concern, whereas, you state that it's not at all! If I were the owner of TW I'd be thanking you profusely.


Why thank me? Again, I'm clearing up facts on a review that as you say can inform other members about a product.


mambo said:


> James Ferrer was kind and confident enough to co-operate and submit a set of his wheels for review. I believe that pending Mark putting some miles on the wheels and posting his findings and additional data, so far, the objective has been achieved.
> 
> Let the fun and games begin!


I'll ask the big question. What information in that review couldn't have been obtained from any DIY wheel builder? I know plenty of DIY guys that could have observed the same things. An expert review would have had some or more of the following.

Actual measurements of components and enough knowledge of other components mentioned to compare them properly.

Some sort of wind tunnel testing with the competition.

Some sort of brake testing to see how they manage heat and perform in the wet.

Lateral deflection tests and some comparisons to other wheels.

For someone that is obtaining a patent on some new way of testing bearings in a hub that's loaded with quick release pressure, I would think at least some of these things would be possible.

I don't for a second claim to have the resources to do any of that. that is why I don't volunteer to do so. I leave that for Adrien at RAR or Woz at Fairwheel. They make testing jigs and have far more resources at hand to do thorough testing.


----------



## ergott

mambo said:


> I'd love to see either of the companies you mention, or any other for that fact, submit their wheels for a detailed review.


They do. I've received rims from November to evaluate and also Boyd will be sending my both hubs and rims to test. They want a wheelbuilder's perspective like mine abnd I will provide them with the feedback they ask for without all the pomp and circumstance on a forum.


----------



## ergott

mambo said:


> but for someone who seems to be such a stickler for detail, what data do you have to support your comments if you do not have a set of TW wheels for real comparison purposes, or did you just stick your finger in the air?


I know Bitex hubs (have them here). I know the flange spacing of those hubs (or at least I think I do since I don't know how they were measured). They won't build into a wheel that is as strong as one built with better hubs.

I already stated before that I'm sure the rims are fine. I have nothing that says they aren't. I'll say it again, for that price range you can do better. Those hubs shouldn't be on wheels that cost that much.

I don't know why you are hell-bent on defending a wheel company you have no affiliation with or a review where you admittedly don't know enough about wheels to get involved in the conversation? If I'm wrong about anything I stated I'd be happy to admit to it. It wouldn't be the first time I did.

It's really nothing personal.


----------



## muno

ergott said:


> It's really nothing personal.



It seems it is. Just jugging from your comments.  funny to see this heated "conversation"  keep it going


----------



## mambo

ergott said:


> If you think I care enough about this matter that I have an "axe"(sic) to grind I'm sorry you feel that way.
> 
> Why thank me? Again, I'm clearing up facts on a review that as you say can inform other members about a product.
> 
> 
> I'll ask the big question. What information in that review couldn't have been obtained from any DIY wheel builder? I know plenty of DIY guys that could have observed the same things. An expert review would have had some or more of the following.
> 
> Actual measurements of components and enough knowledge of other components mentioned to compare them properly.
> 
> Some sort of wind tunnel testing with the competition.
> 
> Some sort of brake testing to see how they manage heat and perform in the wet.
> 
> Lateral deflection tests and some comparisons to other wheels.
> 
> For someone that is obtaining a patent on some new way of testing bearings in a hub that's loaded with quick release pressure, I would think at least some of these things would be possible.
> 
> I don't for a second claim to have the resources to do any of that. that is why I don't volunteer to do so. I leave that for Adrien at RAR or Woz at Fairwheel. They make testing jigs and have far more resources at hand to do thorough testing.


Just about anybody reading through your comments would assume that there are other motives rather than the innocent ones you claim.

I also believe that you are assuming that this was supposed to be some sort of ultra technical review, which it was not meant to be. The purpose of the review was to ascertain the following:

1. Are TW wheels value for money?
2. Will they last?
3. Do they have any glaring defects?
4. What is the build quality?

Remember this was an unpaid review. The tests you suggest above are time consuming, costly and beyond the scope of a simple review. Quite frankly, most potential purchasers of wheels like myself don't give a damn whether a spoke hole is 2.35 or 2.3mm, we are only generally interested in the points above and how they perform. I believe there is enough information there for average Joe buyer to come to his own conclusions. 

We do actually have the resources to run those tests - for instance we have access to the Mercedes Benz -Petronas F1 wind tunnel, but like I say it is beyond the scope of this particular review.

Personally, I think you are just nitpicking for the motives mentioned above.


----------



## mambo

ergott said:


> I don't know why you are hell-bent on defending a wheel company you have no affiliation with or a review where you admittedly don't know enough about wheels to get involved in the conversation?
> .


I don't believe that at any point in this thread I have said anything whatsoever in defence of TW. The defence I have made has been of the review process and your willingness to nitpick at what is meant to be a simple review rather than a full technical industry type report such as the one Mark is preparing for another hub manufacturer. 

Simple as that.


----------



## mambo

ergott said:


> They do. I've received rims from November to evaluate and also Boyd will be sending my both hubs and rims to test. They want a wheelbuilder's perspective like mine abnd I will provide them with the feedback they ask for without all the pomp and circumstance on a forum.


This made me laugh.

You state this in an earlier post;

_"I don't for a second claim to have the resources to do any of that. that is why I don't volunteer to do so. I leave that for Adrien at RAR or Woz at Fairwheel. They make testing jigs and have far more resources at hand to do thorough testing."_

I guess I have to conclude that your review will not include:
_
"Some sort of wind tunnel testing with the competition.

Some sort of brake testing to see how they manage heat and perform in the wet.

Lateral deflection tests and some comparisons to other wheels."_

Yet you insist that Mark should carry out these tests...


----------



## tvad

This is fun.


----------



## mambo

tvad said:


> This is fun.


...fun fun till daddy takes his spoke wrench awa-a-a-ay.............


----------



## deviousalex

mambo said:


> The purpose of the review was to ascertain the following:
> 
> 1. Are TW wheels value for money?
> 2. Will they last?
> 3. Do they have any glaring defects?
> 4. What is the build quality?


1 - Review fails to answer that. If you add up the components plus a local shop building (usually around $75/wheel) them you can get the same wheelset for less money. Mark claims these are a good value to Zipp, ENVE, etc. He should be comparing them to things like Williams, Boyd (i.e. wheels in the same price range).
2 - Review does not answer that question. He barely rode them.
3 - You can't answer this with only one wheelset. Especially one that was sent specifically to a reviewer.
4 - He kinda answers this question, but not fully. As ergott pointed out (apparently he knows a lot more about hubs than Mark) Bitex hubs don't build strong wheels.


----------



## rivren5

deviousalex said:


> 1 - Review fails to answer that. If you add up the components plus a local shop building (usually around $75/wheel) them you can get the same wheelset for less money. Mark claims these are a good value to Zipp, ENVE, etc. He should be comparing them to things like Williams, Boyd (i.e. wheels in the same price range).
> 2 - Review does not answer that question. He barely rode them.
> 3 - You can't answer this with only one wheelset. Especially one that was sent specifically to a reviewer.
> 4 - He kinda answers this question, but not fully. As ergott pointed out (apparently he knows a lot more about hubs than Mark) Bitex hubs don't build strong wheels.


The "review" is not confidence inspiring - it is more just what he noted.One person's observations does not necessarily make TW a good product. I think Mambo has way too much too invested in this. I would NOT buy TW based on the review - it was weak at best. Is Mambo going through all this to justify a purchase?


----------



## JamesFerrer

*Unbiased Wheel Testing*

Is anyone interested in unbiased performance testing of major carbon wheels? I’d like to get the communities feedback on the topic. If there is interest, then I’d be willing to sponsor the costs to run a test planned by the community. Here are my thoughts:

1. Test a variety of major and minor brands across different price points. 

2. Make sure that testing conditions are uniform and the data can be reliably compared. 

3. Determine the real Key Performance Indicators (KPIs). 

Aerodynamics
Braking Performance
Lateral Deflection
Etc.

And how the tests should be conducted.

4. Ensure transparency and openness in the testing procedure, data, and analysis.

If there is interest by the community, then I’ll take care of the costs. 

Full Disclosure: I work for Tokyowheel. I will take extra measures to ensure that this does not effect the validity of the tests or the results. My initial thoughts are that there should be an unbiased ‘Project Manager’, that isn’t on any wheel company’s payroll. 

What do you think?


----------



## JamesFerrer

*Tokyowheel Demo Days*

Hi Everyone,

We are planning a demo day tour and would like to know who’s interested in demoing Tokyowheels. We sell direct via our website, which is great for a lot of reasons, but it isn’t very good for allowing people to try out our wheels in a low pressure situation. That’s why we are planning a number of Demo Days, around the world. You can come out, have some fun, test our wheels, and we can get to know more local cycling communities. We are planning our tour locations now. If you are interested in us coming to your town, or know of a great cycling community, just post it in this thread.

Thanks everyone, we look forward to meeting you.

P.S. We are thinking Austin, TX would be a good starting point


----------



## Mr645

Equipment demos are always fun. I wish more bike and parts companies did them


----------



## JamesFerrer

Thanks everyone,

I've been hands off with this thread for a while, but I'd like to give some comments now that Mark has posted his review.

Mark, thanks for your efforts in posting that review.

1. My comments about the review
It would have been much more valuable to the community to have a review of the wheels after they had been ridden in a variety of conditions, for an extended period of time. The most significant evaluation of the wheels is, of course, do you enjoy riding them. There are a lot of things that factor into this: performance, durability, price, and they add up to you enjoying them or regretting your purchase. I would have liked to have seen that angle in the review. 

I think an effective testing procedure would be to test all the main competitors in the market under uniform conditions for key performance indicators (KPI) that really effect the ride. I agree with ergott that the KPIs are:

Aerodynamics
Braking performance
Lateral Deflection
Etc.

One of the posters from slowtwitch (Attilamonster), is a longtime customer of Tokyowheel. He's also a scientist of some sort. About a year ago he and I were discussing the need for a data driven test of braking performance. He measured the width of the braking surface of his wheel at every spoke hole, to the .001mm and graphed the variance. The goal was to show the what can cause 'pulsing' during braking due to variances in the braking surface width. I think his measurement is a great start towards a meaningful analysis of braking. You can see his data here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITR4kLwEPH4 

and here is a screenshot









I've outlined in previous posts some other valuable tests on braking surface performance that had more to do with heat.

I'd love to see how the main players in the wheel market perform on more detailed tests like this.

2. Moving forward:

If there is community interest. Tokyowheel would like to sponsor the costs to carry out an in-depth testing of multiple brands of wheels under identical conditions. See more about this offer in the thread I just created: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/unbiased-wheel-testing-326492.html

I'd like to get the community’s input in what should be tested, and how the testing should be carried out. If there is enough interest, we'll cover the costs and take extra measures to see the the tests aren't biased by our sponsoring. 

3. Demo Day Tour

Most of the comments on this thread are by people who have never ridden Tokyowheel. It's impossible for someone to make an informed decision about the value of a product without trying it. 

So I propose this. Tokyowheel will host a number of Demo days, in key locations (determined by requests here and on our website), so you all can come out, try the wheels, have some fun, and we can get to know more local communities.

This is something we are more than happy to do if the community is interested. 

So, if you want to demo some Tokyowheels, just post your location here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/tokyowheel-demo-days-326493.html

I think a great first stop would be Austin, TX. 

4. About this forum.

I'm a newbie to this forum, and i've learned that my posts get a fair amount of flaming, regardless of their intent. That's no problem, I appreciate everyones interaction. I support both positive and negative comments. They all provide a different perspective. 

I would like to specifically ask some feedback. What do you think Tokyowheel should do to turn around the rather negative impression of our brand on this forum, so we could focus on providing value to the cycling community. I know that my comments are biased, but our customers really do love our wheels and love being part of 'Team Tokyowheel'. We'd like to give that same type of experience to members of this forum as well. 

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## mambo

rivren5 said:


> The "review" is not confidence inspiring - it is more just what he noted.One person's observations does not necessarily make TW a good product. I think Mambo has way too much too invested in this. I would NOT buy TW based on the review - it was weak at best. Is Mambo going through all this to justify a purchase?


I have already ordered a set (with DT hubs). I don't need and didn't wait for forum member opinions to justify a purchase.

The test rides are the second part of the review as Mark originally stated. It's up to Mark to decide how and who he wants to carry that side of the review out.


----------



## cxwrench

I'm wondering why you haven't been sued by Specialized yet...


----------



## SauronHimself

cxwrench said:


> I'm wondering why you haven't been sued by Specialized yet...


I'm waiting for Tokyo Wheel and Yoeleo to merge so that the wheels can fit only one large decal around them that say Tokyoeleo Wheel.


----------



## tihsepa

I actually considered these for cross season. I waited on the review form that other guy. Well, i could have eaten alphabet soup and crapped a better review than that. 
I will shop elsewhere. I review that is published before its ready is worthless and hurts more than helps credibility.


----------



## tihsepa

mambo said:


> The test rides are the second part of the review as Mark originally stated. It's up to Mark to decide how and who he wants to carry that side of the review out.


Yeah but he hosed the first part. From this point on, its just lip service.

I say you send them to someone like CXwrench and let him put the screws to them. 
Sorry CX, had to do it.


----------



## matfam

*Tokyowheel Demo Days*

Portland Oregon has a strong and vibrant cycling community, shout out to Western Bike Works.


----------



## tvad

If you _really_ want to have your wheels thoroughly and professionally tested, then you should contact Tour Magazine in Germany and request your wheels be included in their next wheel test. Tour International is Tour's quarterly multi language publication, and it's available at the Apple App Store and Google Play.


----------



## myhui

For Southern California, either Dana Point or Newport Beach would be great.

Good cycling roads include MacArthur Blvd. from the airport down to Newport beach, and 133 Highway from Laguna Beach to Irvine.


----------



## tvad

I'm purposely double posting this reply in two threads...

If you _really_ want to have your wheels tested thoroughly and professionally, then you should contact Tour Magazine in Germany and request your wheels be included in their next wheel test. Tour International is Tour's quarterly multi language publication, and it's available at the Apple App Store and Google Play.


----------



## Enoch562

yes, send me set , I'll test them.


----------



## jaggrin

Add Taylorsville, Ga to the tour list.


----------



## jaggrin

ergott said:


> Getting back to the original wheels.
> 
> Honestly, for that price range you can do much better. Boyd sells a range of carbon clinchers profiles for $1400 and November sells two different models for $1500. Both use confirmed proprietary rims they designed. Boyd uses an in-house designed hub that's better than those included here and November uses White Industries T11 stock. November has also performed their own wind tunnel testing on their rim shapes.
> 
> Both are companies in the US and sell/service without waiting for shipping from around the globe. You can reach them by phone and chat wheels with guys that love riding bikes as much as I do.


Ergot, thanks for turning me on to November Wheels. I am looking to purchase a set of carbon clinchers and like the fact they offer a White Industries hub build. I have a set of alloy wheels with White Industry hubs and they are all I need and are stellar for the price. I agree that dealing with folks in the US and the fact that November builds their wheels in the US is a plus too.


----------



## JamesFerrer

tihsepa said:


> I actually considered these for cross season. I waited on the review form that other guy. Well, i could have eaten alphabet soup and crapped a better review than that.
> I will shop elsewhere. I review that is published before its ready is worthless and hurts more than helps credibility.


Agreed, but in the interest of moving forward and doing something of real value, let's keep this thread about the market as a whole and not one specific company. Thanks


----------



## deviousalex

JamesFerrer said:


> I would like to specifically ask some feedback. What do you think Tokyowheel should do to turn around the rather negative impression of our brand on this forum, so we could focus on providing value to the cycling community.


Warning: a lot of this may seem harsh, but here are my suggestions.

1 - Drop the price to $999 for the wheelset with the basic hub. You should be competing with Williams price point there. You also may want to reconsider the choice of your basic hub, as others have pointed out here it's not great. While we're on the topic of cost charging $180 to upgrade to CX-Rays is ridiculous, it's $4.09/spoke. You can buy CX-Rays on BikeHubStore for $2.95/spoke.
2 - Stop pretending this is a proprietary mold. A lot of commenters here have pointed out you can get rims with the same widths, etc from Farsports and other Chinese distributors. I understand there is a difference between mold and carbon layup, etc. You can have two wheels look identical but one made of higher grades of carbon. Educate your customers about this. Pretending that your wheel is proprietary mold makes us not believe you when you say that you have a special DuraHeat-R braking surface. As of reading about this I'm inclined to believe you are just putting a name on whatever braking surface comes on other OEM wheels.
3 - Change your name from Tokyowheel. By your own admission, your company does not manufacture or build anything in Japan. This just seems like more deception.
4 - Posting pictures of yourself in a random factory (cool wheel building station though) doesn't actually prove anything. A forum member here visited China and visited HongFu's factory and posted pictures. Many of these factories in China will allow you to visit them so anyone can do it. If you do want to post pictures, look a little more relaxed next time 
5 - I know this is out of your control, but having members of forums that hasn't shown their worth (post count, quality of posts, etc) just come in and randomly rave about your wheels doesn't help. Both the OP and mambo have not shown in this forum that they have high or expert knowledge about wheels but are defending their purchase (probably out of pride or buyer's remorse for the latter).

Look, I understand you're in a highly commoditized business. Everything you use can be purchased by any end consumer anywhere on the globe and this is a challenge to differentiate yourself. At your price point and with no reputation (and no real differentiator to be honest) you are going to have a hard time.

If I were to buy a wheelset from an upstart relatively unknown company I'd get it from someone like RaceRim and here's why. He's a guy I've met at a couple local races here, he buys high quality rims from companies like Reynolds, and he's local to my area so I know if I have a problem I can talk to him about it. Not to mention for using Reynolds rims his prices are killer, i.e. $1100 for a wheelset. Just an FYI, I haven't actually bought a set from him (I have a set of tubular race wheels that are in great condition right now), so I can't attest to the build quality. But my point still stands that since I have a birds eye view of both of these companies the choice between them would seem obvious.

I know this may be a bit pessimistic, but I am always suspicious of people that say any wheels are the best thing since sliced bread. I had a set of Reynolds DV3K clinchers and 7 months later I destroyed the rear hub and it had to be replaced. A team mate gave me a front wheel he built and rode for thousands miles (the braking surface was quite worn). The hub was smooth when he gave it to me. Five months later the bearings were super rough and had lateral play in them. He's 200+lbs and I'm 145. I guess I'm just not the smoothest rider.


----------



## ergott

JamesFerrer said:


> I would like to specifically ask some feedback. What do you think Tokyowheel should do to turn around the rather negative impression of our brand on this forum, so we could focus on providing value to the cycling community. I know that my comments are biased, but our customers really do love our wheels and love being part of 'Team Tokyowheel'. We'd like to give that same type of experience to members of this forum as well.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.


I started out with a couple of serious points of feedback and didn't hear back. Just because I'm another wheelbuilder doesn't mean I wouldn't help another guy out.

1) Seriously, if you are to have any success get rid of any name that could be tied to Specialized. As I posted previously, they are adamant about protecting their trademarks and they own the name Epic in the cycling world. 

2) deviousalex gave you some major feedback that's worth taking note of.

3) If you are going to use Bitex hubs, understand that they have many models to choose from. Using a set of their hubs that has a better flange spacing is far more important than the meaningless ceramic bearing upgrade. The better flange spacing of the hubs I have here would instantly make your wheels stronger.

4) Don't advertise a wheelset weight that you can't be close to in finished product. Being 100g over stated weigh is considered unacceptable by most in the cycling community. 20g is far more reasonable and still a realistic goal.

5) Don't pretend. If the wheels are made from readily sourced components don't hide that. There are enough people in the industry and other cyclists that can spot a design that's used elsewhere. There's absolutely nothing wrong with catering to the budget carbon wheels market. Differentiate yourself by having exceptional service and fast turnaround and you will be ahead of the game. Word does get out.

6) If you really want to spend some money, sponsor a team or two. Then you will get real world feedback from people that ride their equipment hard. People also notice wheels in races and that builds major credibility. You will get more results from this than any testing you can come up with.

Hope that helps.


----------



## ciclologista

Ive been lurking here for ages but never felt like taking part in the forum,but this time felt I had to chip in. Ive got no interest in tokyowheels and Im happy with the wheels I have but it seems that you cant do anything even well intended without people flaming you these days. 
From what I can see mambo has aranged for these wheels to be reviewed,tokyowheels have sent a set of wheels in good faith and Mark Stemy/tallrider has taken the time to review them.
Is the review impartial?I reckon so.The review doesn't seem to be slanted in favor of the wheels,the faults and positives points are mentioned.in a way non-experts like me who might be looking to buy wheels and who I reckon the review is intended for,it's good enough,better than a magazine review IMHO and it's more information than is out there for most other wheels.OK so heyve yet to be test ridden.
Theres also a lot to be said for a bike company that allows you to try their product for a full year and send it back and GET MORE THAN YOU PAID for it just because you didnt like it.
As to ergott, youve has lost all credibility. You say that you dont trust tallriders review because as an example he wrongly quotes the hub measurement on the white industry hubs, but you say that Fairwheel are much more trustworthy even though according to you THEY GOT IT WRONG AS WELL AND YOU HAD TO CORRECT THEM. Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? Doesnt that seem to be abit personal even though you claim the oposite?
You then go on to put your foot in it even more by saying the tokyowheels are inferior to boyd and novemberwheels and then you admit that your waiting for those brand wheels to arrive to test and obviously dont have a set of the tokyowheels lying around either. So I ask what criteria did you base your conclusions on the three sets of wheels?(an answer saying that youve judged them based on parts used aint good enough by the way, not judging by your high criteria and standards anyway).mambo joked about tallrider being the wheel whisperer, I guess, judging from your conclusions which seem to be picked out from thin air we should maybe call you the wheel diviner!!! If i were looking to buy a set of wheels, youd be one of the last people Id go to as your obviously willing to judge and give a biased opinion on parts without trying or testing them first.I reckon you got scared of competition.
Id like to thank mambo and tallrider for their time and effort and kudos to tokyowheels for stepping up to the plate.Its a shame more forum members and manufacturers dont have the same initiative.


----------



## Z'mer

ciclologista said:


> Ive been lurking here for ages but never felt like taking part in the forum,but this time felt I had to chip in. Ive got no interest in tokyowheels and Im happy with the wheels I have but it seems that you cant do anything even well intended without people flaming you these days.
> From what I can see mambo has aranged for these wheels to be reviewed,tokyowheels have sent a set of wheels in good faith and Mark Stemy/tallrider has taken the time to review them.
> Is the review impartial?I reckon so.The review doesn't seem to be slanted in favor of the wheels,the faults and positives points are mentioned.in a way non-experts like me who might be looking to buy wheels and who I reckon the review is intended for,it's good enough,better than a magazine review IMHO and it's more information than is out there for most other wheels.OK so heyve yet to be test ridden.
> Theres also a lot to be said for a bike company that allows you to try their product for a full year and send it back and GET MORE THAN YOU PAID for it just because you didnt like it.
> As to ergott, youve has lost all credibility. You say that you dont trust tallriders review because as an example he wrongly quotes the hub measurement on the white industry hubs, but you say that Fairwheel are much more trustworthy even though according to you THEY GOT IT WRONG AS WELL AND YOU HAD TO CORRECT THEM. Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? Doesnt that seem to be abit personal even though you claim the oposite?
> You then go on to put your foot in it even more by saying the tokyowheels are inferior to boyd and novemberwheels and then you admit that your waiting for those brand wheels to arrive to test and obviously dont have a set of the tokyowheels lying around either. So I ask what criteria did you base your conclusions on the three sets of wheels?(an answer saying that youve judged them based on parts used aint good enough by the way, not judging by your high criteria and standards anyway).mambo joked about tallrider being the wheel whisperer, I guess, judging from your conclusions which seem to be picked out from thin air we should maybe call you the wheel diviner!!! If i were looking to buy a set of wheels, youd be one of the last people Id go to as your obviously willing to judge and give a biased opinion on parts without trying or testing them first.I reckon you got scared of competition.
> Id like to thank mambo and tallrider for their time and effort and kudos to tokyowheels for stepping up to the plate.Its a shame more forum members and manufacturers dont have the same initiative.


Another just joined, first post from a new user to a Tokyo wheel thread.


----------



## MMsRepBike

ciclologista said:


> Hi, I'm a shill for Tokyowheel. Buy our overpriced Chinese wheels.


sounds a little more accurate.


----------



## November Dave

I don't want to wade too deep into what appears to be a good old fashioned poo fling here, but a couple of points to clear up:
1. Ergott first had a set of our rims about a year ago. He sells them, so it's impossible to say he's without bias, but for those who've dealt with him you know he's a Class A Wheel Nerd before anything else. He's VERY thorough, and has given us valuable insight into our rims. Just as an example, he measures ERD at every spoke hole as a matter of course. A thorough review, to him, means something different than it might to others.
2. We have, indeed, tested extensively in the wind tunnel. We are about to do another round of testing. This is expensive, don't be fooled, and perhaps it doesn't translate 100% perfectly into the real world. It is, however, alongside controlled, scientific velodrome testing of the sort that few have the resources and wherewithal to accomplish, the only valid way to test a wheel's aerodynamics. Without doing it you simply can not make any valid aerodynamic claims, period, no discussion. We also believe that the way we do it, which is to compare directly head to head against a popular benchmark under extremely controlled circumstances, is the only valid way to compare one wheel to another. Comparing the absolute value of what one wheel did with a mystery tire inflated to unknown PSI in one tunnel, possible combing through multiple wheel and tire combinations to get the best result, is completely hopeless. 
3. Our rims have had extensive heat testing in a lab environment. We are undertaking a series of field experiments to hopefully give people a better understanding of the can's and can't's of what our level of heat tolerance (350*f) means in the real world.
4. We are currently completing our lateral stiffness testing fixture. This is primarily being done to evaluate different build options for various riders and to be able to test various lacing, hub, and spoke options. We have no intent to buy a bunch of wheels and test and rank them. 

All of this testing, and getting the word out about it, takes a ton of time and costs a fortune. We make those investments because we feel that they're the only way for a consumer to know and trust the product s/he is getting. 

Since our name keeps cropping up here, just wanted to illustrate those points.


----------



## JamesFerrer

deviousalex said:


> Warning: a lot of this may seem harsh, but here are my suggestions.
> 
> 1 - Drop the price to $999 for the wheelset with the basic hub. You should be competing with Williams price point there. You also may want to reconsider the choice of your basic hub, as others have pointed out here it's not great. While we're on the topic of cost charging $180 to upgrade to CX-Rays is ridiculous, it's $4.09/spoke. You can buy CX-Rays on BikeHubStore for $2.95/spoke.
> 2 - Stop pretending this is a proprietary mold. A lot of commenters here have pointed out you can get rims with the same widths, etc from Farsports and other Chinese distributors. I understand there is a difference between mold and carbon layup, etc. You can have two wheels look identical but one made of higher grades of carbon. Educate your customers about this. Pretending that your wheel is proprietary mold makes us not believe you when you say that you have a special DuraHeat-R braking surface. As of reading about this I'm inclined to believe you are just putting a name on whatever braking surface comes on other OEM wheels.
> 3 - Change your name from Tokyowheel. By your own admission, your company does not manufacture or build anything in Japan. This just seems like more deception.
> 4 - Posting pictures of yourself in a random factory (cool wheel building station though) doesn't actually prove anything. A forum member here visited China and visited HongFu's factory and posted pictures. Many of these factories in China will allow you to visit them so anyone can do it. If you do want to post pictures, look a little more relaxed next time
> 5 - I know this is out of your control, but having members of forums that hasn't shown their worth (post count, quality of posts, etc) just come in and randomly rave about your wheels doesn't help. Both the OP and mambo have not shown in this forum that they have high or expert knowledge about wheels but are defending their purchase (probably out of pride or buyer's remorse for the latter).
> 
> Look, I understand you're in a highly commoditized business. Everything you use can be purchased by any end consumer anywhere on the globe and this is a challenge to differentiate yourself. At your price point and with no reputation (and no real differentiator to be honest) you are going to have a hard time.
> 
> If I were to buy a wheelset from an upstart relatively unknown company I'd get it from someone like RaceRim and here's why. He's a guy I've met at a couple local races here, he buys high quality rims from companies like Reynolds, and he's local to my area so I know if I have a problem I can talk to him about it. Not to mention for using Reynolds rims his prices are killer, i.e. $1100 for a wheelset. Just an FYI, I haven't actually bought a set from him (I have a set of tubular race wheels that are in great condition right now), so I can't attest to the build quality. But my point still stands that since I have a birds eye view of both of these companies the choice between them would seem obvious.
> 
> I know this may be a bit pessimistic, but I am always suspicious of people that say any wheels are the best thing since sliced bread. I had a set of Reynolds DV3K clinchers and 7 months later I destroyed the rear hub and it had to be replaced. A team mate gave me a front wheel he built and rode for thousands miles (the braking surface was quite worn). The hub was smooth when he gave it to me. Five months later the bearings were super rough and had lateral play in them. He's 200+lbs and I'm 145. I guess I'm just not the smoothest rider.


Hi deviousalex,

Thanks for your post and your feedback. I really appreciate you taking the time to write what you did. It's very helpful for us to get your perspective. Thanks very much.


----------



## JamesFerrer

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that there is very little interest in this project on this forum. There is a good amount of discussion going over on slowtwitch. If there are interested people on this forum speak up.


----------



## JamesFerrer

Thanks everyone for your input. We're setting up our tour at the moment so if anyone else want's us to come to your community, post it here. Thanks!


----------



## Coolhand

Merged the discussions into one:


----------



## majbuzz

Four responses must not be very encouraging. Best of luck.


----------



## JamesFerrer

Coolhand said:


> Merged the discussions into one:


Thanks Coolhand!


----------



## tihsepa

JamesFerrer said:


> Thanks!


I was interested in a set of these. I am sorry but The review done and posted here just seemed like a shill. I work hard for my little bit of cycling money and just cant see myself taking the risk. 
Good luck with your venture.


----------



## JamesFerrer

tihsepa said:


> I was interested in a set of these. I am sorry but The review done and posted here just seemed like a shill. I work hard for my little bit of cycling money and just cant see myself taking the risk.
> Good luck with your venture.


tihsepa,

Thanks for posting. Yes, to be honest I didn't feel that review helped the situation as I was hoping it would. I do have to say that I spoke with Mark, the writer of the review, on the phone before he posted it and he is certainly a good intentioned guy. I do appreciate his efforts, but I think everyone had different expectations then what the final review delivered. 

It's obvious that Tokyowheel needs to get out in the open more and facilitate some trustworthy and insightful reviews. We've got some things in the works to hopefully accomplish that in the near future. 

In the meantime, if you want to talk about your wheel purchase research, feel free to give us a ring or an email, or if you'd like we can setup a time and I'll give you a call. Thanks for participating on the forum and considering Tokyowheel.


----------



## ciclologista

tihsepa said:


> I actually considered these for cross season. I waited on the review form that other guy. Well, i could have eaten alphabet soup and crapped a better review than that.
> I will shop elsewhere. I review that is published before its ready is worthless and hurts more than helps credibility.


If you expect people to believe that you must be even more stupid than some of your comments. youre one of the biggest cynics and haters on this forum. geez!


----------



## ciclologista

JamesFerrer said:


> tihsepa,
> 
> Thanks for posting. Yes, to be honest I didn't feel that review helped the situation as I was hoping it would. I do have to say that I spoke with Mark, the writer of the review, on the phone before he posted it and he is certainly a good intentioned guy. I do appreciate his efforts, but I think everyone had different expectations then what the final review delivered.
> 
> It's obvious that Tokyowheel needs to get out in the open more and facilitate some trustworthy and insightful reviews. We've got some things in the works to hopefully accomplish that in the near future.
> 
> In the meantime, if you want to talk about your wheel purchase research, feel free to give us a ring or an email, or if you'd like we can setup a time and I'll give you a call. Thanks for participating on the forum and considering Tokyowheel.


if I understand right. this was a free review. he obviously spent several hours on it. What did you expect - miracles. If you want a full review go get it done by tour magazine or another independbent source


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## JamesFerrer

Hi Everyone,


Thanks again for all your input on this thread. I have a few updates that I think you all will be interested in. 


1. A while back I posted about an upcoming Factory Tour Video, well here it is. Have a look at our manufacturing and testing and give any comments or criticisms that you like. 


How are Carbon Wheels Made - Tokyowheel Factory Tour - YouTube





2. In an effort to be more transparent (this was something we learned via this forum that the community wanted). We’ve ‘open sourced’ Tokyowheel via the new Tokyowheel Forum 
Everything is up for discussion, debate, input, criticism, etc. Check it out here Tokyowheel Forum











We welcome your feedback, requests and participation. 


3. If you are interested to see what I personally am up to, then you can follow me on Strava here James Ferrer | Cyclist on Strava and check out my Instagram here Instagram


I’ve been on a bike tour with my Wife and Twin boys for the past few weeks, from San Francisco to Mexico. It’s been great to meet up and talk with the local guys in CA. Thanks everyone. 












4. If you want to get in on some of our upcoming challenges and giveaways, join Team Tokyowheel on Strava Team Tokyowheel | Strava Club








 


5. If you are going to be in Austin, TX from August 5th, I’ll be there laying the groundwork for our Austin Demo Booth, so let me know and I’d be happy to meet up and buy you a coffee or a beer. 


You can see all our planning for this project on the Tokyowheel Forum here Brand Building, Demo Booth, Service Center - Tokyowheel Forum











This Demo Booth is a concept that we plan to expand worldwide, so if you want to participate, join in the discussion.


6. If you are interested to see what we are working on and what we have planned for the future, then check out the Public ‘Tokyowheel Roadmap’. We will be expanding this and giving you all an inside look and participation into everything. 


Tokyowheel Roadmap - Tokyowheel Forum











Thanks everyone, let me know your comments and criticisms. 


P.S. We’ve had a lot of ‘flaming’ on this thread and I want to make one comment about that. At Tokyowheel, we love negative feedback. It’s the single most valuable thing to us. Objections and complaints are highly actionable improvement points. So please, if we are doing something you don’t like, or aren’t doing something that you think we should be, then let us know and we will take your feedback into consideration.


We hear a lot of positive feedback from customers and that does give us satisfaction, but its the comments like this one ‘Why I haven’t Bought Tokyowheels’ Why I haven't bought Tokyo wheels - Tokyowheel Forum that we love the most. 











Thanks again, let me know if you have any questions or need anything!


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## deviousalex

JamesFerrer said:


> 2. In an effort to be more transparent (this was something we learned via this forum that the community wanted). We’ve ‘open sourced’ Tokyowheel via the new Tokyowheel Forum
> Everything is up for discussion, debate, input, criticism, etc. Check it out here Tokyowheel Forum
> 
> 
> View attachment 300688


How does creating a forum open source a product? If you wanted to open source the product you would give us the rim CAD design, the carbon layup pattern, information about how to create the DuraHeat braking surface, the hub design, and the spoke tension parameters you use for your wheel.


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## JamesFerrer

Hi Deviousalex,

Thanks for your post and your interest in Tokyowheel. We greatly appreciate your constructive criticism, and your comments have been duly noted. 

As a response, I would like to point out that the Tokyowheel Forum is not the answer, its the tool we will use to provide the answer (If i'm being too cerebral, I apologize). Our vision of Tokyowheel as an open source product company involves a participation between the company and any individual that wishes to be involved. Our plan is to do exactly what you have criticized us for not doing, so I think you will be very pleased. In fact we are going a few steps further. As you can see from our roadmap that we are coming up to the 3rd generation of Tokyowheels, and we will make a special effort to involve the community and offer every detail of the design, engineering, decision making, manufacturing, testing, performance comparison, and more. 

In summary: I understand what you are wanting to see, we will be giving that to you as part of our upcoming next generation of products.

P.S. Which model of wheels are you interested in?

Also, what did you think of the video and the rest of the post. Your criticisms are greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## deviousalex

JamesFerrer said:


> Our vision of Tokyowheel as an open source product company involves a participation between the company and any individual that wishes to be involved. Our plan is to do exactly what you have criticized us for not doing, so I think you will be very pleased. In fact we are going a few steps further. As you can see from our roadmap that we are coming up to the 3rd generation of Tokyowheels, and we will make a special effort to involve the community and offer every detail of the design, engineering, decision making, manufacturing, testing, performance comparison, and more.


I think you need to look a little more what being "open source" means. Involving the community and asking them for feedback does not qualify it to being open source. Which license are you using? GPL, BSD, etc? Where are all the design documents, carbon layup, etc? If your product was open source you would be able to find everything you need to build the same wheelset yourself solely from documentation. If your plan is to do this in the future, then you can consider yourself open source. 

I used to write open source software for a living and it amazes me how every software company tried to claim they were "open" to some extent.

I'm not currently interested in any model. My next wheelset will be cyclocross tubular disc model, but looking through you're website I don't think see a wheelset that will suit my needs.


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## krisdrum

I've been following with interest for awhile, but this is even too much for me to stay quiet on. 

James - your video is pretty much as generic as they come. I could have watched the same process done by Easton, Reynolds, etc. Many of us looking at carbon know 99%+ of that stuff, so it begs the question "who is your target audience?" As for the LENGTHY post from 2 days ago, glad you are implimenting all these ideas and philosophies, but when you boil it down, that post is a giant billboard, on a public forum, where to my knowledge you are not contributing to the upkeep of the site. Read: free advertising, which personally just chaps my sensitive parts.

Adding a lack of differentiation to your other "open source" competitors to your "marketing" approach, and I for one will wish you good luck, but you'll never see a dime of my money.

You'd serve yourself well to look at the approach of some of the highly respected carbon guys here (Boyd, November, etc.), offer a perspective, insight, authenticity and transparency. I still don't see that from you. It's just advertsing and sales. And since you are the only advertising channel I've seen, you aren't doing yourself many favors with your current approach, IMO.


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## JamesFerrer

krisdrum said:


> I've been following with interest for awhile, but this is even too much for me to stay quiet on.
> 
> James - your video is pretty much as generic as they come. I could have watched the same process done by Easton, Reynolds, etc. Many of us looking at carbon know 99%+ of that stuff, so it begs the question "who is your target audience?" As for the LENGTHY post from 2 days ago, glad you are implementing all these ideas and philosophies, but when you boil it down, that post is a giant billboard, on a public forum, where to my knowledge you are not contributing to the upkeep of the site. Read: free advertising, which personally just chaps my sensitive parts.
> 
> Adding a lack of differentiation to your other "open source" competitors to your "marketing" approach, and I for one will wish you good luck, but you'll never see a dime of my money.
> 
> You'd serve yourself well to look at the approach of some of the highly respected carbon guys here (Boyd, November, etc.), offer a perspective, insight, authenticity and transparency. I still don't see that from you. It's just advertsing and sales. And since you are the only advertising channel I've seen, you aren't doing yourself many favors with your current approach, IMO.


Great Feedback, thanks for the insight. Yes, this forum thread is certainly the lowlight of public information about our company, and our marketing. It's actually quite stressful posting on here, but I think at some point we will find out how to do things to the community's liking, and it will be beneficial.

Can you at least agree that we are taking steps in the right direction vs the wrong direction?

I greatly respect your comments. You have some great opinions on the topic. What would be one specific thing (action item) that you would like to see us do, that would put on the the track towards the type of presence that you described. Keep in mind that whatever you recommend may not be possible for us to immediately deliver on, in the longterm we will listen and respect your input. Thanks again. 

----

@deviousalex thanks for your post. You're in luck, we have a road disc hubset option that we havn't released on our website yet but have been quietly shipping out to customers for a few weeks. I won't post the details here, because we havn't made that info public yet, but send me a PM and I'd be happy to give you the info. Thanks!


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## BacDoc

Some great internet drama unfolding here! For those who just clicked on the last page, here is a synopsis from someone with no dog in the fight.

Players:

James Ferrer - the company guy for Tokyo wheels, using the forum for free publicity and marketing, but he is up front and open about this. He uses multiple posts and lots of paragraphs that can be summed up in way less verbiage. To his credit, the video is not the best but shows enough for those interested. He seems to take criticism without resorting to getting defensive and personal attacks.

Mambo - rider who was interested int the wheels and wanted to share his observations. Seems like typical rider looking at generic wheels in this price point to see if value and performance are there.

Mark - wheel builder who was sent a set to evaluate and report back. From all indications he is a talented guy who probably has a lot on his plate. From what I've read here, seem like he got caught in the middle and tried to do a fair review but didn't meet the expectations of some of those who read the review. To his credit, sounds like he was not paid and was doing this for a client interested in hid feed back.

Boyd - solid rep wheel builder who has products in thi this price point dialed in and has great rep. Offers some good advice to James about the legal implications of using anything that smells like the big S.

November - another wheel builder dialed in on this price point, pretty much like the input and rep of Boyd.

Ergott - skilled wheel builder who knows his stuff and will take claims to task for validity. Type of guy who measures twice and cuts once. Nothing wrong with that and he will point out flaws or inconsistencies he notices.

Pros/Cons of Tokyo :

Another generic Chinese carbon wheel that is trying to get market share.
Probably same or similar to other Chinese wheels out there.
Roughly half the price of the high end big names.
Hubs may be the weak point, but option to upgrade.
Free shipping
Return policy that states 110% of purchase price refund guarranteed.

I like to see this kind of thread, with the company guy as well as those who are questioning him. Makes for some interesting reading.

My advice to James : try to use less to say more! Otherwise I think you are doing a good job.

Carry on!


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## ClarkinHawaii

JamesFerrer said:


> We build our Manufactured in USA wheels in Tokyo, .


Either you are basically honest or basically dishonest. From your own descriptions of the components you use, NOTHING is made in USA. Consequently I have to deduce that you are trying to attract business from people who want to support USA workers by pretending to be what you are not. I would call this dishonest. Please feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.

Also your warranties do not make good business sense and even if you are sincere about them, I believe that you will not be in business long enough to stand behind them.


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## morgan1819

Good Lord ... the name of the company is Tokyo Wheel. He isn't trying to fool anyone.

The only mistake James has made, is he wasn't prepared for the snark a few members of this forum spew out on a daily basis.

My suggestion for James - work with the management here at RBR, and get your own forum, and then ship RBR a set of wheels or two for testing.

Your product looks as good as anyone in your price point, and your website seems honest and straight forward. 

*Do not *engage the snark patrol on this forum, as they get off on attempting to make a name for themselves by starting some type of [email protected] storm with a manufacturer. It's been played out several times already, and it get's old fast.






ClarkinHawaii said:


> Either you are basically honest or basically dishonest. From your own descriptions of the components you use, NOTHING is made in USA. Consequently I have to deduce that you are trying to attract business from people who want to support USA workers by pretending to be what you are not. I would call this dishonest. Please feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.
> 
> Also your warranties do not make good business sense and even if you are sincere about them, I believe that you will not be in business long enough to stand behind them.


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## krisdrum

morgan1819, I have to fully disagree. James is getting *EXACTLY* what he wants. Namely, this thread staying on the front page of the forum. His marketing "plan" is to utilize a free communication channel to hock his wares, without any desire to actually share his knowledge and insights as a "builder". All he has posted is advertising/marketing hype, unlike the many others with their own businesses who have kept their noses clean (for the most part) and actually contribute their skill to our collective knowledge.

And yes, right now I am continuing to play into his hands and I'm sure his smile is ten feet wide. Which is why I am going to ask that we *let this thread SINK*, *stop replying*, *ignore the pandering*, and let James step up to the plate to prove himself as anything other than a shifty salesman with a generic product looking to make a quick buck.


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## morgan1819

I'm okay with you fully disagreeing ... but in case you missed it, I clearly suggested he work with RBR on getting his own forum, thereby following the rules. A subtle reminder of how business is done around here, don't you think?

I won't earn any street cred though, because my goal wasn't to shoot him down in flames and attack his livelihood... 

In essence we imply the same directive, albeit in a different manner.

Be well and good riding.







krisdrum said:


> morgan1819, I have to fully disagree. James is getting *EXACTLY* what he wants. Namely, this thread staying on the front page of the forum. His marketing "plan" is to utilize a free communication channel to hock his wares, without any desire to actually share his knowledge and insights as a "builder". All he has posted is advertising/marketing hype, unlike the many others with their own businesses who have kept their noses clean (for the most part) and actually contribute their skill to our collective knowledge.
> 
> And yes, right now I am continuing to play into his hands and I'm sure his smile is ten feet wide. Which is why I am going to ask that we *let this thread SINK*, *stop replying*, *ignore the pandering*, and let James step up to the plate to prove himself as anything other than a shifty salesman with a generic product looking to make a quick buck.


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## Sammy Garcia

I am an end user of TokyoWheels (on their Customer Map: Mexico, Metepec, 52172), and probably James worse Customer (I do provide the complete feedback when he asked for it, good and bad), so let's add some real life experience to this drama (my contribution to real life interested riders, like me):

I ordered my 38/50 clincher wheelset about a year ago. I took almost three weeks to arrive in Mexico. The package arrived truly banged by EMS/MexPost (they really tried to destroy it!!). Cassette carrier was banged (James sent another one), and both wheels required truing. And it arrived with the wrong hubs (I requested James to change the Vapor Hubs to DT Swiss Straight Pull, but I guess it did not happen on time). This got me very upset, and was about to ship them back (which would actually not cost me anything, due to their warranty), but I decided to give them a shot.

After truing, having read about carbon clincher brake track overtemp failures, I decided to make sure failure would happen within the warranty period. VERY IMPORTANT: I did not wait for the brake pads to seat, but ground them to the right angle for wide rims caliper setting (they should all be sent/provided with the right angle to avoid overtemping the brake track due to only a small area having contact for all the braking pressure, IMO). Here in Toluca, Mexico, almost everywhere you go mean climbs and descents. I weigh 73 kg, so I'm not too heavy, but like to descend fast. So I did brake hard, then harder, THE HARDER trying to make them fail. ZERO damage (magnifying glass, aircraft maintenance QC level kind of eye looking). Now I'm confident they will simply just not fail on me, and ride with this peace of mind.

I like the way they look, the way they feel and handle (even in cross winds), the way they ride, and the price. The aerodynamics, I don't know. They feel faster (mentally, at least), especially riding at constant higher speeds 40 km/hr. But I don't think I'm qualified to state whether they are faster. I don't have a way to accurately measure it.

I am happy with my wheelset (however the wrong hubs), and am about to purchase another wheelset from TokyoWheel.

My other wheelset is a Reynolds 32 tubular, and I ride an S-Works Tarmac SL3, with DA 7900.

I hope interested riders find my real life experience useful to make a decision, since this is the type of research I do when I'm buying something, and gets confusing when I find contradicting posts on threads like this one.


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## ClarkinHawaii

Sammy Garcia said:


> I am an end user of TokyoWheels (on their Customer Map: Mexico, Metepec, 52172), and probably James worse Customer (I do provide the complete feedback when he asked for it, good and bad), so let's add some real life experience to this drama (my contribution to real life interested riders, like me):
> 
> I ordered my 38/50 clincher wheelset about a year ago. I took almost three weeks to arrive in Mexico. The package arrived truly banged by EMS/MexPost (they really tried to destroy it!!). Cassette carrier was banged (James sent another one), and both wheels required truing. And it arrived with the wrong hubs (I requested James to change the Vapor Hubs to DT Swiss Straight Pull, but I guess it did not happen on time). This got me very upset, and was about to ship them back (which would actually not cost me anything, due to their warranty), but I decided to give them a shot.
> 
> After truing, having read about carbon clincher brake track overtemp failures, I decided to make sure failure would happen within the warranty period. VERY IMPORTANT: I did not wait for the brake pads to seat, but ground them to the right angle for wide rims caliper setting (they should all be sent/provided with the right angle to avoid overtemping the brake track due to only a small area having contact for all the braking pressure, IMO). Here in Toluca, Mexico, almost everywhere you go mean climbs and descents. I weigh 73 kg, so I'm not too heavy, but like to descend fast. So I did brake hard, then harder, THE HARDER trying to make them fail. ZERO damage (magnifying glass, aircraft maintenance QC level kind of eye looking). Now I'm confident they will simply just not fail on me, and ride with this peace of mind.
> 
> I like the way they look, the way they feel and handle (even in cross winds), the way they ride, and the price. The aerodynamics, I don't know. They feel faster (mentally, at least), especially riding at constant higher speeds 40 km/hr. But I don't think I'm qualified to state whether they are faster. I don't have a way to accurately measure it.
> 
> I am happy with my wheelset (however the wrong hubs), and am about to purchase another wheelset from TokyoWheel.
> 
> My other wheelset is a Reynolds 32 tubular, and I ride an S-Works Tarmac SL3, with DA 7900.
> 
> I hope interested riders find my real life experience useful to make a decision, since this is the type of research I do when I'm buying something, and gets confusing when I find contradicting posts on threads like this one.


Hey, thanks for the review--I love this kind of thing!


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## deviousalex

Sammy Garcia said:


> VERY IMPORTANT: I did not wait for the brake pads to seat, but ground them to the right angle for wide rims caliper setting (they should all be sent/provided with the right angle to avoid overtemping the brake track due to only a small area having contact for all the braking pressure, IMO). Here in Toluca, Mexico, almost everywhere you go mean climbs and descents. I weigh 73 kg, so I'm not too heavy, but like to descend fast. So I did brake hard, then harder, THE HARDER trying to make them fail. ZERO damage (magnifying glass, aircraft maintenance QC level kind of eye looking). Now I'm confident they will simply just not fail on me, and ride with this peace of mind.


Couple points. If you want to test brake track failure due to high heat you can't just slam on the brakes. It's the constant dragging of the brakes that causes failure. This is what manufacturers who tests their own wheels replicate when checking for temperature increase.

The second is that there is different than a blowout type failure. A friend of mine purchased some cheap eBay carbon clinchers. He weighed about 85kg at the time. He didn't have a blowout (there are steep descents here, as steep as 30%) but the eventual heating/cooling cycles caused the rims to delaminate and warp as well. This was about 6 months after he purchased them.


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## Sammy Garcia

deviousalex said:


> Couple points. If you want to test brake track failure due to high heat you can't just slam on the brakes. It's the constant dragging of the brakes that causes failure. This is what manufacturers who tests their own wheels replicate when checking for temperature increase.
> 
> The second is that there is different than a blowout type failure. A friend of mine purchased some cheap eBay carbon clinchers. He weighed about 85kg at the time. He didn't have a blowout (there are steep descents here, as steep as 30%) but the eventual heating/cooling cycles caused the rims to delaminate and warp as well. This was about 6 months after he purchased them.


The test conditions have been, on warm weather, 95 psi on the back, 85 in the front, a 17 km high speed descent ( from El Mogote to Grutas) reaching up to 15% gradient, late braking constantly before each curve, exactly 19 times. The way I like descending is not dragging the brakes all the time. I like high speed.

As a precaution, I clean and inspect my wheels brake track once a week. Nothing has been noted so far. And let this be known: should I ever find something going bad, this will be the first group to learn about it.


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## deviousalex

Sammy Garcia said:


> The test conditions have been, on warm weather, 95 psi on the back, 85 in the front, a 17 km high speed descent ( from El Mogote to Grutas) reaching up to 15% gradient, late braking constantly before each curve, exactly 19 times. The way I like descending is not dragging the brakes all the time. I like high speed.


You didn't listen to my point. Late braking is the proper way to descend, but it's not what makes carbon clinchers fail. It's the constant dragging on the brake. My point is that your single test proves nothing about the wheelset in question.


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## deviousalex

Well, RBR posted their review.

Review: Tokyowheel Epic 38/50 Carbon Clinchers | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos

Best part:



> Finally, I must mention one email I received from the company, which offered a $100 gift card to anyone who posted a review of their Tokyowheels on a public cycling forum or cycling review website. That number went up to $200 if you recorded a short video review of your Tokyowheels and loaded it on YouTube. “Don’t worry too much about quality,” said the email. “You can record it with a smartphone. Send us the link to the video and we will send you a $200 Gift Card.”


Even now if I read reviews stating Tokyowheel is the best thing since rims moved from wood to metal I'd still never buy one.


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## ergott

That's explains A LOT!


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## cxwrench

Wow...Tokyowheel not even attempting in the least to hide the 'shill factor', crazy.


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## deviousalex

I wonder if RBR got their money?

Also, I browsed through the slow twitch thread about this and it does follow the same pattern. Random newbie posts about how great the wheels are, james jumps in and "answers" questions, ignores the real ones about why his wheels are the same as farsports, shows lack of knowledge about the industry (i.e. claims that DT Swiss 240S are made in Taiwan, when they are actually Swiss made).


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