# 2010 Mavic R-Sys Premium



## european.dr (Nov 12, 2009)

Is this 2010 Mavic R-Sys Premium a good wheelset?


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

Sure, if you like explosions close to your tender parts.


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

Possibly the worst ever. 

Use the search function!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

VERY bad aerodynamics, and a spotty safety record, including some recalls. :nonod:

You can do lots better.
.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

I've got a set of the R-Sys Premiums since November. Have maybe 600-700 miles. No issues so far. They are light, climb well, spin up fast.


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## Mdeth1313 (Nov 1, 2001)

ah, the ford pinto of bicycling wheels.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Oral and orthopedic surgeons love them!


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

european.dr said:


> Is this 2010 Mavic R-Sys Premium a good wheelset?



Not saying that Mavic builds bad a product. I for myself just bought a set of Ksyriums Equipe wheels.

However, not everything engineered and produced by a renowed manufacturer is up to the expectation:

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/01/mavic-recalls-r-sys-front-wheel.html


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## european.dr (Nov 12, 2009)

Dracula,thanks for the info....


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> VERY bad aerodynamics, and a spotty safety record, including some recalls. :nonod:
> 
> You can do lots better.
> .


For much less coin.


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## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

Its pretty amazing how far these wheels have fallen. The used to be the bomb... before they turned out to be real live bombs.


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## tireuxderoche (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm riding the R-SYS Premiums and love them.

All these "death wheels" people are just parrots.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Better a parrot than an idiot. I do not need to drive a Toyota to test for myself if the pedal will get stuck. I do not need to have a blow out with shitty Schwalbe tyres. Moreover I am not gonna kill myself with sodding Specialized Roval wheels. In all that cases I will stick to myth and lore even though they might be just myths.

People in my office are mocking me up because I bought me a home fire extinguisher after reading that washing machines can catch fire. 

And so it is with Mavic fancy plastik wheels: Mavic should get over it. We are faced wih the problem that bicycle riders do not have a lobby. Once ew were out of the first stuck Toyota pedals governments started inquries.

What happens after a bicyle crash due to badly engineered crap: it will go into history as kind of a casuality and no one will care.

Nothing against Mavic. As I said I just bought a set of new Ksyrium Equipe wheels and persuaded my brother to by Aksiums after he was in the process of shopping for new wheels as a replacement for his old Shimano WHR 500.

However, crap is crap. avic can do better.


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## tireuxderoche (Dec 18, 2009)

Mavic had an issue with the R-SYS. They fixed them.

Avoid them if you want but enough with the crap talk about these wheels. 

"Don't believe the hype."


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

From June 2009. This happened after the post recall relaunch of the R-Sys. 

This is from Ben Delaney's VeloNews article.
_
Coming around a corner, I felt a shimmy through the front of my bike. I straightened up out of the turn to bring the bike under control. A second or two later I catapulted over the handlebars. The rim of my front wheel had completely detached from the hub. I had not hit anything — not another rider, a curb or even a rock. I landed on my head and broke my shoulder.

The front wheel was Mavic’s second generation, post-recall carbon-spoke R-Sys wheel.

The original R-Sys wheels were recalled in January after several riders experienced problems with multiple and concurrent spoke failures.

Mavic has earned its reputation as a dependable manufacturer of quality products. I have ridden and raced Mavic wheels for years, and will continue to do so. My confidence in the company was demonstrated by the fact I chose to ride a post-recall wheel. If Mavic said it was fixed, I reasoned, then that’s good enough for me. I do not have a problem with Mavic — but I do have a problem with this particular wheel._

More here. 


.


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## tireuxderoche (Dec 18, 2009)

I've seen that.

One person's experience. Amazing how ONE person's incident damns the entire thing.

One of my buddies cracked the top tube on his Specialized Tarmac. Shall we damn the whole Tarmac line?


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

tireuxderoche said:


> Mavic had an issue with the R-SYS. They fixed them.
> 
> Avoid them if you want but enough with the crap talk about these wheels.
> 
> "Don't believe the hype."


I lost the link. However, have heard of stories that the wheels failed again AFTER having had the recall.

I know of prodigies (idiots) they have sent in shitty Schwalbe tyres up to FIVE times and in return received each time the same crap.

Why Mavic produced and attempted to engineer plastic wheels in the first instance is beyond me.

A lot of people hedge grudges against Mavic because they manufacture wheels. I have never seen the point to have a wheel builder lacing up my wheels. I am happy with Mavic. However, this does make shitty r-sys wheels any better.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

tireuxderoche said:


> Mavic had an issue with the R-SYS. They fixed them.


There is no fix unless they change it completely. Carbon has no ductility... when the yield point is exceeded it breaks. Spokes made of thin light carbon tubes that are constrained at both ends and required to take compression loads... = bad idea. Any deviation from designed loads (like if one spoke breaks for whatever reason) leads to instability of the structure, loads >yield, and rapid self-destruction. Every spoke in the wheel snaps before your face hits the ground.


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## tireuxderoche (Dec 18, 2009)

Stay away from those "Plastic" bikes too. They're rolling death traps!


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

tireuxderoche said:


> Stay away from those "Plastic" bikes too. They're rolling death traps!


[By the way my bike is sports an alu frame.]


However, as rruff rightly pointed out: it is all about a design failure and not the material per se.

As long as Mavic does not change the design the status quo will persist.


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## tireuxderoche (Dec 18, 2009)

Be sure to wear a condom while you're riding your bike. 

You can never be too safe!


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

il sogno said:


> From June 2009. This happened after the post recall relaunch of the R-Sys.
> 
> This is from Ben Delaney's VeloNews article.
> _
> ...


Its pretty much a given that this article will come up on any R-Sys topic. Its almost a year old now. Find me an incident AFTER that article. 

Here is Mavic's response:

The wheel
Fact: There were no significant scratches or dents to the metal alloy inserts on the hub of the wheel, nor to the quick release mechanism which is inserted into the hub.

Preliminary Indication: If the spokes of the wheel had simply failed while the cyclist was riding, then the fork would have dropped straight down with the hub secured in the fork. Under such circumstances, the hub should show evidence of a severe impact, which is not the case here.

The tire
Fact: There is photographic evidence that the tire separated from the rim of the wheel. The tire was a clincher tire.

As support, attached with this letter is a picture taken by a photographer at the scene of the accident. One can see the significant section of the tire which has separated from the rim of the wheel.

Preliminary Indication: A failed tire or a puncture could have caused the cyclist to instantly lose control of the bike, resulting in a crash event involving the subsequent breakage of the wheel. On May 26, the Mavic Engineering Team requested the opportunity to conduct specialized testing on the tire at an independent testing lab in Belgium. As of this date, Mavic has not yet received the tire from Mr. Delaney. Mavic understands that the tire is currently being shipped to Mavic for such independent testing purposes.

The inner tube
Fact: The valve stem is missing. One can see on the picture attached the location of the hole in the rim where the valve stem to the tire should be.

Preliminary Indications: The shearing of the valve stem would occur under conditions where the tire moves, slides or fails, and the wheel rim continues to rotate slightly relative to the tire, cutting the stem. The forces needed to generate such an event would require that the integrity of the wheel (meaning hub connected to the rim by the spokes) had not yet been compromised at the moment the shearing occurred.

The frame
Fact: The frame is made of carbon. The horizontal tube under the chest of the cyclist is broken. The fork (also made of carbon) is not broken and shows no evidence of scratches or impact.

Preliminary Indications: If the horizontal tube broke before the incident, this could have caused the loss of control and the crash event. Also, evidence of impact or damage to the fork would likely be present if the incident was caused by a failure of the spokes.

Read more: http://velonews.competitor.com/2009...to-wheel-collapse-article_93240#ixzz0jmt1B58D


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

1 event in one year post volontary recall + 3 known cases on the whole interwebs

hundreds of posts showing the velonews case


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## tireuxderoche (Dec 18, 2009)

Facts don't get in the way of bad-mouthing the R-SYS.

You see, most of the people slagging them have B.I.K degrees. (Bachelor of Internet Knowitallogy)


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

tireuxderoche said:


> Facts don't get in the way of bad-mouthing the R-SYS.
> 
> You see, most of the people slagging them have B.I.K degrees. (Bachelor of Internet Knowitallogy)


I have never worked as an engineer even though I have a Bachelor in mechanical engineering. My final projects was to engineer, calculate and design a 'cable car'.
On top of that I for exampe have a Master in astrophysics (all the fancy stuff in the universe) and a Phd in physics and work as a researcher at the university.

You are right not many here are working as engineers and a lot posted in newsgroups is myth and lore and pure speculation. But lets get real: why should we buy all the shitty crap written by the marketing fuzzies within the manufactures?


Nevertheless, what has Mavic done after the recall? The design is still crappy. If someone would pay me money riding the r-sys sorry there is no way I wold do it.


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## tireuxderoche (Dec 18, 2009)

I respect your opinion but disagree.


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## trauma-md (Feb 6, 2004)

Tim Johnson rode R-Sys tubulars for most of the 2008 Cyclocross season...no problems.

That is enough for me not to worry about mine.


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## vortechcoupe (Jun 6, 2006)

Even if they were bullet proof, they are still one of the least aero wheels ever made. That alone would make me not want to ride them. 

Oh, and the retail price is f-in crazy.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Lol...people keep harping on the aerodynamics. Unless you plan on using them for a time trial...the aero is negligible.

On those wheel aero charts...they do not take into consideration the drag of the bike and the rider or where you are riding (like climbing or in a group). So unless you plan on rolling the wheel down the road by itself...those charts really do not mean much in the real world.

Georgia Gould also rocks them on her CX bike.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

AvantDale said:


> Lol...people keep harping on the aerodynamics. Unless you plan on using them for a time trial...the aero is negligible.
> 
> On those wheel aero charts...they do not take into consideration the drag of the bike and the rider or where you are riding (like climbing or in a group). So unless you plan on rolling the wheel down the road by itself...those charts really do not mean much in the real world..


It's not just the crappy aerodynamics (though I do think ppl prefer good aerodynamics even outside of time trials & triathlons)... I just don't see the point of using these wheels. There's the bad safety history (especially troubling is how that VeloNews incident happened *after* the recall, i.e. *after* Mavic said it had 'fixed' the problem), the afore-mentioned brick-like aerodynamics, _and_ the fact they're not cheap. It's like... what's the point?  

The R-Sys is the equivalent of a date who's not only unattractive, but _also_ has a bad personality _and_ gets drunk and pukes in your car. The one plus is light weight, but that's hardly unique in wheelset-land these days.

I know you bought 'em, I know you'll defend them unto death... but there's just so many other, better choices out there. Can't see holding a torch for these, there's just no real good reason to.

Perhaps if we were starving for good product... but we're not. And the whole idea was perhaps a bit dumb in the first place. Replace skinny spokes with big, fat carbon tubes, in what was probably a marketing-led effort to be 'more carbon than thou'. Yes, that was always going to be extremely aerodynamic, wasn't it? And durable in the face of unexpected and unanticipated loads and stresses... not.  

To be fair, none of this changes the fact that Mavic does make plenty of good product elsewhere in their lineup. I wouldn't have any problem using their Open Pros or many of their other rims. But with the R-Sys, perhaps they should just go back to the drawing board. It feels like anyone riding 'em is playing beta tester, or worse, guinea pig. 

So, sorry... wouldn't ride these even if ya paid me to. If saying that gets me flamed by you and the newbie with 7 posts, ah well. Won't be the first time.

Mavic should consider offering R-Sys owners the option of trading their wheels in for credit towards other, better Mavic wheelsets. Might help them avoid being known as the 'Toyota' of wheelmakers (not a good thing these days).
.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

I was wondering when you were going to show up. 

Your only stating your opinion based on an article. Find me an incident AFTER that article.

I also posted Mavic's findings on the "failed" wheel. Their findings look like legitimate ones. Let me know your dispute with their findings.

I also have no issues with buying a Toyota.:thumbsup:


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Sorry, 'Dale... based on the history (several failures, leading to a recall, leading to the issuance of 2nd-gen wheels, which STILL failed suddenly, severely injuring VeloNews guy), the onus isn't on me to prove they're still dangerous... it's on Mavic to prove they're now safe. 

Given that they were wrong after saying the problems were fixed before, only time (and lots of it) can really stamp these as safe now. 

But I do admire your persistence in defending your purchase. True loyalty, even if perhaps misguided, is something you don't see much of these days. :thumbsup: 



/ btw, I can understand buying that Toyota, even knowing the issues they're having. It's like adding a dash of danger and excitement to the daily commute.  
.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

AvantDale said:


> I also posted Mavic's findings on the "failed" wheel. Their findings look like legitimate ones. Let me know your dispute with their findings.


This is what actually happened:

.....................................................

Eyewitness accounts

Although I was certain of what I experienced, I spent more than two weeks tracking down people who had seen the crash and asking them what they saw. Scores of people saw me flip over the handlebars — one of the race announcers described it as “the Bin Laden of Endos” — without me or my bike hitting anything or anyone. But I continued making phone calls, sending emails and knocking on doors along the racecourse until I connected with people who saw the incident up close.

First, here is my description of what happened. I was the second of four riders through the corner. I entered the left-hand turn for the umpteenth time that day with a clear line of sight. According to my PowerTap data, I was going between 23 and 25mph — average for that corner when riding in single file. There is a slight dip in the road in the corner, which at speed adds a bit of torsional force when leaning into the turn. After the apex of the turn, I suddenly felt something was not right with the wheel. I straightened up, and knew things were not OK. I was no longer thinking about racing. I unclipped one foot and started slowing down, riding in a straight line, now about 30 feet from the corner. I heard a frictional sound, which surprised me as my shoe had not yet touched the ground. A split-second later the front end dove and I catapulted over onto my head and shoulder.

The crotch of the fork shows rubber skid marks in line with the direction of the rotating wheel. The rim, which has no deep scratches on it, is ovalized. It appears that when the spokes all broke, the fork dropped down onto the wheel, stopping it abruptly and throwing me over.

The second rider behind me in the corner saw me enter the corner normally, then quickly jerk the bike upright as I exited. He said he did not think my wheel washed out, reasoning that if it had, I would have crashed, with my trajectory taking me straight into the curb on the right. Instead, I turned further left before straightening out, and he came around me to the right. Once my bike was upright and heading straight, he saw me pull my foot out “and the front just buckled and threw you over like a trout.”

A woman, who was course marshalling that corner, saw the crash from behind. She saw the front of my bike dip down and then saw me go over the bars. A man who was sitting on the outside of the corner said it appeared I “did a little drift to the right in the corner” before straightening out and then “lurched over the bars as the wheel came apart. It was all rather sudden, but it seemed that the wheel failure caused the crash, rather than a crash causing the wheel to break.”

I spoke with two veteran bicycle mechanics, both of whom were standing in the yard — 30 or 40 feet down from the corner — in front of which I crashed.

Scott Holm, a mechanic at Freewheel Bike in Minneapolis, was standing at the edge of a friend’s front yard from where he saw me come out of the corner to his left, ride straight down the street, and crash immediately in front of him. He said the wheel “looked like it just self-destructed.”

Holm said he saw our group come around the corner and straighten out. “It looked like you were upright and going straight again,” he told me. “There was no contact with anyone. It looked like the front wheel just gave up. I saw your front end completely drop. I saw the wheel collapse.”
.........................................................................


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## fazzman (Mar 12, 2008)

I stay away from anything mavic. Has a set of MTB wheels and the freehub body was junk.Went through 3 of them. Cheap plastic bushing breaks apart and deforms. Even on the super high end wheels. Junk.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

tireuxderoche said:


> Facts don't get in the way of bad-mouthing the R-SYS.
> 
> You see, most of the people slagging them have B.I.K degrees. (Bachelor of Internet Knowitallogy)



Funny that you say that only 4 instances of failure have been documented, and not funny like HA HA!

We had one fail in our practice [email protected] 28mph in a corner...UGLY! 
Another blew up climbing over a 7% hill @ 14mph...

That's two on two rides I was actually on! The LBS has replaced @ 6 of them for failure. Two were POST-recall wheels.

Crap is crap...


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

I agree that we can't just believe what we read on the internet; that doesn't mean that we can't at the same time use our experience and intelligence to gauge the effectiveness of designs that manufacturers put before us. 

Bicycle wheels, for a very long time, have worked under the principle that the strength is gained from the spokes being in tension. Has worked very well for a long time. Mavic says why not try putting the spokes in zero tension (resting state) where they are in tension at the top and compression at the bottom (when loaded). 

It doesn't take an engineer to see the problem - it's intuitive. It has nothing to do with the spoke material (carbon fiber) but in the length to diameter ratio. Spokes are much longer than their cross section, and are inherently instable in compression. Take a soda straw and pull on it. Quite a bit of resistance to your force. Take said soda straw, balance on table, and press downward. Immediate deflection and buckling. 

Again, it has nothing to do with the materials, but it is the simple fact that long, thin members don't do well in compression. 

Everyone can judge the technology for themselves, but I'm not buying that it is an intelligent (and safe) design.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

fazzman said:


> I stay away from anything mavic. Has a set of MTB wheels and the freehub body was junk.Went through 3 of them. Cheap plastic bushing breaks apart and deforms. Even on the super high end wheels. Junk.


I still think the Mavic bearings are one of the better ones. 

I have only heard of junkie Fulcrum wheels which feature shitty bearings. There have been posts on German newgroups showing OFFICIAL customer service replies after some of the Fulcrum 5 and 7 bearings failed in rain. People within Fulcrum must be completely mad. According to them: a Fulcrum wheel is not intended to be used in rain.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

natedg200202 said:


> Again, it has nothing to do with the materials, but it is the simple fact that long, thin members don't do well in compression.


Actually it does have to do with materials. The spokes will be fine taking large compression loads so long as everything is ok... the problem is what happens when something goes awry. If the spokes were steel they'd go into plastic deformation and absorb a lot of energy... and not break in two... and not induce a chain reaction where all the spokes snap.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

backinthesaddle said:


> Funny that you say that only 4 instances of failure have been documented, and not funny like HA HA!
> 
> We had one fail in our practice [email protected] 28mph in a corner...UGLY!
> Another blew up climbing over a 7% hill @ 14mph...
> ...


I talked to a guy who worked at a shop in El Paso and he said he knew a couple locals who suffered from exploding R-Sys wheels. Believe it or not most riders don't post regularly on internet forums.


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## j-man (Sep 3, 2009)

if there was a real problem with r-sys then we would hear about much more crashes


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

j-man said:


> if there was a real problem with r-sys then we would hear about much more crashes


Have you even been reading the thread? :



backinthesaddle said:


> Funny that you say that only 4 instances of failure have been documented, and not funny like HA HA!
> 
> We had one fail in our practice [email protected] 28mph in a corner...UGLY!
> Another blew up climbing over a 7% hill @ 14mph...
> ...





rruff said:


> I talked to a guy who worked at a shop in El Paso and he said he knew a couple locals who suffered from exploding R-Sys wheels. Believe it or not most riders don't post regularly on internet forums.


*And* Mavic recalled the wheels. *And* still had a famous catastrophic failure after the recall.

But "there's no real problem?" :skep:
.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

this kind of threads make me want to go become a member of bikeforums.net


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Salsa_Lover said:


> this kind of threads make me want to go become a member of bikeforums.net


Isn't that kind of self-torture? :idea:


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Salsa_Lover said:


> this kind of threads make me want to go become a member of bikeforums.net


I'd suggest seeing a psykologist about such desires.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> this kind of threads make me want to go become a member of bikeforums.net


They are certainly why I spend most of my time in the lounge...


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## Mdeth1313 (Nov 1, 2001)

fazzman said:


> I stay away from anything mavic. Has a set of MTB wheels and the freehub body was junk.Went through 3 of them. Cheap plastic bushing breaks apart and deforms. Even on the super high end wheels. Junk.



well, I still have a couple of mavic wheel bags I use, and a mavic tire lever as well. So I don't stay away from everything. Come to think of it, I picked up some of their clothing line dirt cheap too. Just no wheels.


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