# Why can't sprinters climb...



## mikefm101 (Feb 18, 2009)

...or climbers sprint?

Watching more bike racing on VS. after finally getting cable TV I am surprised at how clear the distinction between sprinters and climbers is. Cancellera, as an example, has done some amazing rides, but I was taken aback at the difference in his performance once the montains started. 

Is it a conscious decision to do one or the other and train accordingly, or is it a difference in physiology?

Mike


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## El Guapo (Dec 10, 2002)

*Difference in physiology...*

By the way...professional sprinters CAN climb. Do the math and you'll realize these "sprinters" can climb SIGNIFICANTLY faster than any of us. They just can't climb as fast as the pure climbers.


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

Why can't the climbers sprint?!


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Climbing takes more stamina (a sprinter would kick butt on a short hill) and is all about power to body weight ratio whereas sprinting is more about pure power with the power per pound/kilo is less of a factor.

It's a combination of training and physiology. Certain guys could probably train for either with equal success. Others are destined to be good at only one.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

How do magnets work?


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

To hijack somewhat, why cant some climbers, time trial? Is it purely poor aerodynamic body position and the inability to generate and sustain power in such a position?


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

Hank put his finger on it. If we liken it to the auto world, Sprinting is about peak power above the red-line, and sustainable only for a short interval, whereas hill climbing, other than short sprintable hills is about the ability to sustain power at or near the redline for long periods.

Most world class sprinters are also decent hill climbers, but conditioning for short term peak power is different than training for the sustained effort of long climbs.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

Why would a sprinter want to waste precious energy by doing a mountain fast? They're not going to win. So the strategy for the day is simple. Sit in the group to conserve energy until the big climb, then pick a small gear and spend the least amount of energy to get up the last climb within the time limits. (While joking and having fun with the other sprinters, injured folks or those otherwise taking the day off also.)

"Sprinters" can climb, and fast...when it matters. Sunday's stage did not matter. Why would it matter if a sprinter is 30 minutes off the GC vs 45? (and on the other hand, some breakaway guys want to be 45 minutes off the pace now, they will be allowed to join the breaks.)


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## eddie m (Jul 6, 2002)

The last 2 posts have it right. There's some difference in ability or training, and some difference inn strategy. If I'm a high GC rider, I won't waste energy or risk crashing by getting into the sprint, and maybe I won't compete against a teammate who wants the sprint. If I'm not high in the GC, maybe winning sprints looks real worthwhile to me.

em


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## eddie m (Jul 6, 2002)

zac said:


> To hijack somewhat, why cant some climbers, time trial? Is it purely poor aerodynamic body position and the inability to generate and sustain power in such a position?


Climbimg is about your power to weight ratio, time trialing is about total power. If a big guy has the same power to weight ratio as a small guy, they will climb equally, but the big guy will crush teh small guy in a flat time trial.

em


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## hawkman71 (Apr 20, 2010)

It's not a question of where he GRIPS it, but a question of weight ratios! A 5 Conti swallow cannot....

(read with best Monty Python British accent...)


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

eddie m said:


> Climbimg is about your power to weight ratio, time trialing is about total power. If a big guy has the same power to weight ratio as a small guy, they will climb equally, but the big guy will crush teh small guy in a flat time trial.
> 
> em


Thanks, makes perfect sense. Sometimes you (me in this case) fail to see the forest for the trees.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> How do magnets work?


Magic --- obviously.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Your average sprinter/ classics guy weighs more then a stereotypical cyclist. Since they weigh more they are capable of putting more power/ wattage into the pedals. The downside is that because they weigh in the range of 170-180 pounds it is harder to get up hills because of --- well physics. It is the same principal as wheel: lightweight rim Vs heavy. It is easier to climb with lightweight wheels but if the rider is heavy then it negates things a bit.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

mmoose said:


> Why would a sprinter want to waste precious energy by doing a mountain fast? They're not going to win. So the strategy for the day is simple. Sit in the group to conserve energy until the big climb, then pick a small gear and spend the least amount of energy to get up the last climb within the time limits. (While joking and having fun with the other sprinters, injured folks or those otherwise taking the day off also.)
> 
> "Sprinters" can climb, and fast...when it matters. Sunday's stage did not matter. Why would it matter if a sprinter is 30 minutes off the GC vs 45? (and on the other hand, some breakaway guys want to be 45 minutes off the pace now, they will be allowed to join the breaks.)


It's not _just_ strategy. Mark Cavendish cannot climb as fast as Alberto Contador, or 50 other tour climbers, no matter how hard he tries. His body type (shaped in large part by his training) is optimized for sprinting, and climbing, at these speeds, is hard. Some of those sprinters and rouleurs in the autobus are struggling, and have a tough day even though they finish 30 minutes -- or longer -- after the winners. Mario Cipollini never completed a tour, and that was largely by choice. But he finished the Giro a number of times, and he had some painful days in the mountains.

In other words, it ain't "a day off." At best, it's a hell of a hard training ride. The sprinters took 5 and a half hours for Sunday's stage.


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## bane (Aug 30, 2006)

How about last year when Thor Hushovd (sp?) clinched the green jersey by taking a mountain stage and making it his little lady. AND he was riding elliptical cranks. What a weirdo.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Simple.
Fast/slow twitch muscle ratio.......


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> How about last year when Thor Hushovd (sp?) clinched the green jersey by taking a mountain stage and making it his little lady. AND he was riding elliptical cranks. What a weirdo.


IIRC, those mountains that day weren't that steep. Get a steep and long climb then it's all about watts per kilogram that you can produce for an hour - as compared to a couple minutes. 

Fwiw, there's a chart floating around the web that you can find showing how much the extra weight penalizes the rider as the grade increases - it's bad news for us big guys.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bane said:


> How about last year when Thor Hushovd (sp?) clinched the green jersey by taking a mountain stage and making it his little lady. AND he was riding elliptical cranks. What a weirdo.


ehm what? Thor did not take any mountain stage. He got over the first mountain of the day while all the favorites were still finishing their breakfast. 
Then he got swallowed up and lost 30 minutes.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm willing to say for many climbers time trials are harder because the hill is their motivation. Motivating yourself to grind out 40 miles at threshold is a mental torture chamber. Some like it some don't.


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## Dereck (Jan 31, 2005)

It's something you'll soon learn for yourself, albeit at a much slower pace than in the Pro Tour ranks. Some of us can get up hills well, some of us regard moving from (lumpy) Maryland to (Utterly Dead Flat) Chicago as a sort of WOOOPEEE!!! moment.

It'll never change much. When I weighed 145lb and went a fair bit faster than I can now, especially if there was but a short distance between chequered flag and my position, I hated, loathed and detested going uphill. Now, many years and pounds added on, nothing's changed.

It's the same in, say, a Cavendish vs Contador comparison. Albeit while you wouldn't want to suggest to Cavendish that he's slow up a hill as you rode alongside him, you probably wouldn't see Contador pass you...

Much the same can be applied to any other discipline vs another. A TT rider has to dole out his/her energy to where it runs out five feet from the finish line over whatever the total distance is. A sprinter cuts the whole thing loose in a couple of hundred yards and runs out of steam five feet after the line - many have come second because they were convinced too early they'd won.

You could improve at some disciplines. Say, lose weight, train to maximise climbing ability. Practice the art of time trialling and train for strength to apply to that constant, metered output. 

Sprinting. Easy - lose any fear you have, learn how to ride through gaps slightly narrower than your handlebars in the middle of a pack of heaving, swaying cyclists all set on hacking you into history, while avoiding pedals, bar ends, elbows, and other impedimenta. All at 30-odd MPH (normal people) to 40-odd (Cavendish, Petacchi, Farrar et al)

Okay, I doubt there's an app for that 

D


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Dereck said:


> It's something you'll soon learn for yourself, albeit at a much slower pace than in the Pro Tour ranks. Some of us can get up hills well, some of us regard moving from (lumpy) Maryland to (Utterly Dead Flat) Chicago as a sort of WOOOPEEE!!! moment.
> 
> It'll never change much. When I weighed 145lb and went a fair bit faster than I can now, especially if there was but a short distance between chequered flag and my position, I hated, loathed and detested going uphill. Now, many years and pounds added on, nothing's changed.
> 
> D


Indeed, there are dicided personal preferences. I'm exactly the opposite of you. I love both climbing and descending. Flat rides bore me to tears. Thank god I discovered fixed gears a few years back to keep my flat commute interesting.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

mikefm101 said:


> ..Why can't sprinters climb, .or climbers sprint?Mike


*If athletes could do anything...*


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

Hooben said:


> *If athletes could do anything...*


when did lance box? wtf


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

skyliner1004 said:


> when did lance box? wtf



LMAO!!! your too funny....


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I'm a big guy and can't climb worth spit. Somebody recently described my sprint as glacial. Does that mean it's good?


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## dysfunction (Apr 2, 2010)

Mr. Versatile said:


> I'm a big guy and can't climb worth spit. Somebody recently described my sprint as glacial. Does that mean it's good?


so, like me you simply wear down the mountain. 

and yea, you could say my climbing performance is sub-maximal


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## f3rg (May 11, 2008)

I'm no pro, but I can do both.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

cpark gets it. It's all about the ratio of slow to fast twitch muscle fibers, the amount of each, the efficiency of each, and the body's aerobic capacity. In my opinion, JCavilia is incorrect in saying Cavendish's body type is optimized by his training. He would not make a good climber no matter how much he trained. It's genetics, and we're all limited to what we can do and how well by genes. Training can't get you beyond your limitations.

I DO find it truly fascinating that riders that excel in one discipline like Cancellara's TT ability or Cavendish's sprinting, just go backwards when they're out of their element. Even at their level, they have limiters and I'll bet it frustrates them just as we get exasperated when we can't perform to the level we desire.


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## mendo (Apr 18, 2007)

Hooben said:


> *If athletes could do anything...*
> 
> 
> The thing is, like someone said above, sprinters can do everything pretty well. I couldn't time trial alongside Cavendish for two minutes, nor could I climb with him.
> ...


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Peter P. said:


> cpark gets it. It's all about the ratio of slow to fast twitch muscle fibers, the amount of each, the efficiency of each, and the body's aerobic capacity. In my opinion, JCavilia is incorrect in saying Cavendish's body type is optimized by his training. He would not make a good climber no matter how much he trained. It's genetics, and we're all limited to what we can do and how well by genes. Training can't get you beyond your limitations.


I didn't mean to imply that it's all training. Genetics plays a big role. But training has some effect, and these guys of course train to maximize their particular strength. 

The differences in the riders and the disciplines are one of the most fascinating things about cycle racing, and the big tours in particular. Casual fans miss all these races within the races. I always get the question, "who's winning?" it's way more complicated and interesting than that.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

At the present time you need to produce [very] roughly 6 watts/kg to stay with the leaders on a climb.

80 kg sprinter x 6 watts/kg = 480 watts
60kg climber x 6 watts/kg = 360 watts

People have held the world hour record producing around 480 watts and none of them were sprinters.


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## sand101 (Mar 29, 2009)

eddie m said:


> Climbimg is about your power to weight ratio, time trialing is about total power. If a big guy has the same power to weight ratio as a small guy, they will climb equally, but the big guy will crush teh small guy in a flat time trial.
> 
> em


Friel has a good article about this. He puts forth that climbing is watts/kg dominated while time trialing is watts/frontal area dominated.


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## Jim311 (Sep 18, 2009)

I wouldn't know, I'm not either of those things


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