# Future Compatibility with Shimano 11 Speed



## betahex (Mar 4, 2008)

Now that we know that Shimano will move to 11 speed in the not too distant future, how should the wheelbuilder future-proof the wheels he builds today? 

In other words, among the commonly used hubs like Alchemy, White Industries, DT, Chris King and others, which would offer compatibility with Shimano 11 speed cassettes? It is unacceptable for a high-end carbon wheelset built around an expensive hubset today to have no upgrade path once 11 speed hits the market.

Thoughts? Rumours? Advice?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I expect the spacing to be similar to Campagnolo 11. That would require a new freehub body and in the case of Alchemy/White Industries, the wheel needs top be redished. It shouldn't render wheels unusable. It might take some time for a company to tool up a new freehub body, but I doubt out will take much.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

If shimano follows their traditions, they'll make 10 speed obsolete and then backwards compatible after a year or so. Remember the ten speed only hubs before they introduced one that would take 8-9?


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

Shimano 10 speed already digs into many alloy cassette bodies. Imagine if you made the cogs thinner? Campy changed their splines to prevent this. Shimano tried with the 7800 series hubs. Shimano should take this opportunity to change their spines.


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## betahex (Mar 4, 2008)

ergott said:


> I expect the spacing to be similar to Campagnolo 11. That would require a new freehub body and in the case of Alchemy/White Industries, the wheel needs top be redished. It shouldn't render wheels unusable. It might take some time for a company to tool up a new freehub body, but I doubt out will take much.


This is good news for those who own custom built wheels. Do you expect factory wheels to be upgradable to 11 speed as well? I'm thinking of all the Fulcrums, Mavics and even Shimano's own Dura Ace wheelsets.


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## betahex (Mar 4, 2008)

strathconaman said:


> Shimano 10 speed already digs into many alloy cassette bodies. Imagine if you made the cogs thinner? Campy changed their splines to prevent this. Shimano tried with the 7800 series hubs. Shimano should take this opportunity to change their spines.


That would mean completely breaking compatibility with previous versions, wouldn't it? I think it may be too late in the game for Shimano. I would prefer hub makers to use Titanium instead to avoid the problem.


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## Elpimpo (Jan 16, 2012)

I want 12 speed

Scrap that, 13 speeds. Yup, thats where its at.

I really NEED 13 speeds.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Some info on WW relates that 11 speed will NOT be backwards compatible to 10. 10 speed cassettes will be forward compatible to 11 speed wheels though.


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## hanzo111 (Jun 9, 2011)

Elpimpo said:


> I want 12 speed
> 
> Scrap that, 13 speeds. Yup, thats where its at.
> 
> I really NEED 13 speeds.



I would agree with the sentiment here, I do not need 11 speed and am happy with my DA 7800 set. I just purchased a set of DA WH-7850-C24-TL tubeless wheels and am going to use Ultegra 10 speed cassette, I doubt if my old a_s would be any faster on 11 speed.


Hanzo


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

*Wait on Wheelset?*



robdamanii said:


> Some info on WW relates that 11 speed will NOT be backwards compatible to 10. 10 speed cassettes will be forward compatible to 11 speed wheels though.


 Good Morning

Do you think / suggest waiting on a new wheelset? Thanks for an update. 

Where are you riding these days?


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Fulcrum and Mavic wheels and DT hubs (except 190/180) already have room for Campagnolo 11 speed without any need for redishing, so unless Shimano needs even more space they'll fit Shimano 11 with a suitable freehub.
Wether current Shimano wheels already have room for an 11th cog is beyond me. Bring out the drawings or the calipers.

(And: 11 speeds versus 10 is not so much about going faster, but about comfort. But wait: Last time I checked comfort translates to speed.)


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

dkilburn said:


> Good Morning
> 
> Do you think / suggest waiting on a new wheelset? Thanks for an update.
> 
> Where are you riding these days?


As KWBH said just above me, some wheelsets have space for Campy 11 speed freehubs already, so it's a decent guess that Shimano _*may*_ fit on those wheels. That's a big IF since Shimano is known for doing things like the 10 speed specific freehub in the past.

If it were me and I was looking into new wheels (and was considering going to Shimano's 11 speed system) I'd wait until the official announcement is made about the rear spacing and which wheels will work with the 11 speed system. I'd hate to get caught having to buy a new rear wheel because they modified the spacing some amount.


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## CAADEL (Jul 23, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> I'd hate to get caught having to buy a new rear wheel because
> they modified the spacing some amount.


Why buy new wheel? :idea: Just buy a new rear hub (and maybe new spokes if sizes are different).


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

CAADEL said:


> Why buy new wheel? :idea: Just buy a new rear hub (and maybe new spokes if sizes are different).


Spoke sizes would presumably be different because of different dishing. 

The cost of a wheel is predominantly in the hub (in most cases, unless you're talking high zoot carbon rims.) Buying a hub retail, new spokes and labor to lace it would likely end up running close to the cost of a new rear wheel anyway. Furthermore, why spend yet MORE money on a new hub, spokes and labor when you could have waited and bought the proper wheel in the first place? 

Wait and buy the correct wheel, otherwise you're gambling on compatibility, that's all I'm saying.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> Spoke sizes would presumably be different because of different dishing.


Really? Are you saying that requiring maybe a mm or two of shift in rim position would require different length spokes? Not in the geometry world I live in.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> Really? Are you saying that requiring maybe a mm or two of shift in rim position would require different length spokes? Not in the geometry world I live in.


If it were a MM or two, why would we need a "new freehub" to fit the 11 speed cassette? Just remove the spacer?

Honestly, I have no idea what the difference will be. I'll bet (based on Shimano's past history) that they make it different enough to force people into new wheels.

Edited to add: spokes are neither here nor there; they're a small cost compared to the price of a new hub because of an incompatible freehub.


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## razardica (Sep 25, 2011)

Kerry Irons said:


> Really? Are you saying that requiring maybe a mm or two of shift in rim position would require different length spokes? Not in the geometry world I live in.


same - I'm confused


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

*11 Speed*

Does anyone have a guess on the gearing of the 11 speed they are planning? 
An 11-28 is missing a 16 and I like my 16. 
Thanks,


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Spoke sizes would presumably be different because of different dishing.


No. I've converted wheels from Campagnolo to Shimano (and back) and the difference in spoke length is a tenth or two of a millimeter. This isn't rocket science here. Any respectable hub manufacturer will tool up for the new freehub body. For some, converting to 11 will require the rim to be redished. This is the same procedure as converting from Shimano 10 to Campagnolo 11. I have no reason to believe that Shimano 11 will be significantly different than Campagnolo 11 because it's not in their best interest to make the freehub any longer than it has to be. Companies big enough like Sram/Zipp and Mavic already have the specifications in order to tool up and be ready. Not all Pro Tour teams sponsored by Shimano use their wheels. Teams that aren't have to have their wheels ready for the group as they are the early adopters. I'm sure you will see 11 on many if not all of the pro teams by the Tour.

FYI, the difference in spacing between Shimano and Campagnolo is 1.6mm.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

strathconaman said:


> Shimano 10 speed already digs into many alloy cassette bodies. Imagine if you made the cogs thinner?


This is the most interesting problem that might come up. Perhaps you will see more titanium freehub bodies like White Industries and Dura Ace hubs have. Weight will go up a bit, but could be a wise move. It would be cool if Shimano did something similar to the Red dome cassette in that there are fewer contact points, but they are wider so there is less digging in.


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

I swapped 3 wheelsets from 10 speed Shimano to 11 speed Campagnolo and didn't have to do anything beyond change the free hub body. Worked great...no re-dishing required.


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## CMi_rider (Mar 22, 2011)

Some hints of 11-speed compatible wheels...
2013 Shimano: 11-speed, road disc brakes and more


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## jasjas (Dec 16, 2009)

Odd really by shimano, like who is going to buy a current Shimano wheel now? OEM only, as for the DA wheels range, maybe they ll soon be heavily discounted.
Perhaps the 11sp will fit the current 7900 hub minus the 1mm spacer? if that is the case, Shimano need to say so soon.


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## CAADEL (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm currently in the process of buying parts to build a custom wheelset. My drivetrain is 50-34 / 12-23 10sp. I rarely ever need something easier that 34/23. The only reason to upgrade to 11 speeds would be the 25t cog in a new 12-25 11sp cassette. Therefore sticking with 10speeds still works for me just fine (unless I move to a more mountainous region in the following year/s). 

Do you think the 10sp rear hubs will be discounted by the time the 11sp will be available for consumers? Is it going to help me save some money if I wait until early/late summer?


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Cyclin Dan said:


> I swapped 3 wheelsets from 10 speed Shimano to 11 speed Campagnolo and didn't have to do anything beyond change the free hub body. Worked great...no re-dishing required.


What wheelsets were those?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

The same thing happened with the first Dura Ace 10 speed wheels. They weren't 9 compatible. This is not the case this time. The freehub body will be longer, but with the same spline so you would need a spacer behind the cassette if you use an 11 speed Shimano wheel with a 10 speed drivetrain. There's just no room to put an 11 speed Shimano cassette on current Shimano 10.

Some hubs do not require a redish from Shimano to Campagnolo. DT is the most common. That would include Bontrager as they use DT internals as do Reynolds and a few others.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ergott said:


> No. I've converted wheels from Campagnolo to Shimano (and back) and the difference in spoke length is a tenth or two of a millimeter. This isn't rocket science here. Any respectable hub manufacturer will tool up for the new freehub body. For some, converting to 11 will require the rim to be redished. This is the same procedure as converting from Shimano 10 to Campagnolo 11. I have no reason to believe that Shimano 11 will be significantly different than Campagnolo 11 because it's not in their best interest to make the freehub any longer than it has to be. Companies big enough like Sram/Zipp and Mavic already have the specifications in order to tool up and be ready. Not all Pro Tour teams sponsored by Shimano use their wheels. Teams that aren't have to have their wheels ready for the group as they are the early adopters. I'm sure you will see 11 on many if not all of the pro teams by the Tour.
> 
> FYI, the difference in spacing between Shimano and Campagnolo is 1.6mm.


I'm hypothesizing on this item:



> - The cassette and freehub body are wider: 10-speed cassettes will work on 11-speed wheels (with a spacer), but not vice versa. Rear hub spacing remains 130mm.


My question will be how to add length to a freehub without affecting the flange distance (on some wheels) with how tight the fit is in some frames as it is. Frankly, I don't trust Shimano to actually make this a simple conversion because that's just not their style.

And we're assuming Shimano and Campy 11 speed freehubs will be the same width? Or is that confirmed?


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Good news for those riders using SRAM. I foresee HUGE sales on 10-speed pre-built wheels towards the end of the year after the 11-speed Shimano starts getting introduced.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

nightfend said:


> Good news for those riders using SRAM. I foresee HUGE sales on 10-speed pre-built wheels towards the end of the year after the 11-speed Shimano starts getting introduced.


Actually, you have to wonder if that's going to be the case or not. Remember all the other Shimano groups are still 10 speed and if the development cycles remain the same they won't switch to 11 until next fall at least. 

Seems like having a firesale on 10 speed wheelsets (outside of Dura Ace 10 speed) would be premature, no?


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

True, but even things like Powertap hubs will face incompatibility. It will definitely be an interesting year coming up.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

nightfend said:


> True, but even things like Powertap hubs will face incompatibility. It will definitely be an interesting year coming up.


If it is nothing more than a freehub swap, then there wouldn't be compatibility problems (I don't think?)

When I read the info of 11 speed not fitting on the current freehub (and some other chatter on WW) I interpreted that as there being wholesale changes in the hub/freehub design. Let's face it, Shimano HAS done that before.

I'd love to be wrong and everyone's wheels to work with a $50 freehub change.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> And we're assuming Shimano and Campy 11 speed freehubs will be the same width? Or is that confirmed?


Should be close. They wouldn't want it to be longer than necessary as that would move the flange even further inboard. Less and you have cogs that are too thin. I think having Campagnolo with 11 speed for a couple of years should be a good tell that they have it figured out. I've read far more that the spacing will remain 130mm than anything else. Keeping it 130mm, gives Shimano few options. Not that adopting spacing similar to Campagnolo would be a bad thing.


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## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

Must admit to being a little confused. I have been using Campagnolo for about 5 years now. Last year I upgraded the cassette, chain, chainrings and shifters to 11 speed, but kept the 10 speed wheel, derailleurs and cranks. After a little teething the set-up now works fine. Basically the 10 speed components I still use are fully compatible with 11 gears.

I'm perplexed that this would be any different for Shimano, unless they do something like changing the parallelogram angles on the 11sp derailleurs. As for the wheels, it should be pretty easy to make the 11sp cassettes fit on a 10sp space. 

That said, never let marketing get in the way of easy mechanical compatibility.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

If I had to blindly guess on Shimano's strategy, I believe what they will be doing is going back to the deeper splines that they originally intended for the 10-speed systems. I say this because there have been several reports that say the old 10-speed cassettes will work on the 11-speed wheels. The Freehub body will probably be slightly longer as well (like Campy), and you will simply add a spacer when using the 10-speed cassette on the 11-speed wheels.

The deeper splines do mean that 10-speed SRAM cassettes would not work, as those use the shallow spline setup if I am not mistaken.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

gordy748 said:


> Must admit to being a little confused. I have been using Campagnolo for about 5 years now. Last year I upgraded the cassette, chain, chainrings and shifters to 11 speed, but kept the 10 speed wheel, derailleurs and cranks. After a little teething the set-up now works fine. Basically the 10 speed components I still use are fully compatible with 11 gears.
> 
> I'm perplexed that this would be any different for Shimano, unless they do something like changing the parallelogram angles on the 11sp derailleurs. As for the wheels, it should be pretty easy to make the 11sp cassettes fit on a 10sp space.
> 
> That said, never let marketing get in the way of easy mechanical compatibility.


Campagnolo freehub body was longer than Shimano since they made 9 speed. They had the room for 11 all along. Only a few aftermarket hubs needed some modification for 11 speed. White Industries is one example.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I seem to remember the outrage when Campagnolo changed the freehub spline pattern...


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

kbwh said:


> I seem to remember the outrage when Campagnolo changed the freehub spline pattern...


Yeah, people get over it. It's not like there won't be any options.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

ergott said:


> Should be close. They wouldn't want it to be longer than necessary as that would move the flange even further inboard. Less and you have cogs that are too thin. I think having Campagnolo with 11 speed for a couple of years should be a good tell that they have it figured out. I've read far more that the spacing will remain 130mm than anything else. Keeping it 130mm, gives Shimano few options. Not that adopting spacing similar to Campagnolo would be a bad thing.


That's what I was worried about (given Shimano's track record on things like that) so that is reassuring to hear from someone who builds wheels.


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## hanzo111 (Jun 9, 2011)

I wonder if a free hub replacement/retrofit will be in the works, I just purchased a set of DA WH 7850 tubeless wheels. I never buy the current generation products because i cannot justify the cost/performance ratio so 11 speed may be on my bike in 3 years or so as i am running DA 7800. 

Kind of sucks though about the resale value of all these nice wheel sets being purchased right now.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

I just generated enthusiasm for the new 9000 mechanical (since my 7900 is somewhat terrible) and learned that DT Swiss has freehub bodies to convert my 10 speed wheels to 11 speed. 
I also have a set of Shimano Dura Ace tubeless that I need to convert but I'm not very optimistic about that.


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