# Moots vs. Seven??



## MCF

Tall rider here considering going custom Ti.....one LBS reps Moots and one reps Seven, What advantages/disadvantages would I have going with either one considering this will be a full custom frame for a 6'5" rider? Of course, one shop swears by Moots and one swears by Seven.

Considering Axiom SG and Moots VA Moots. I know from the Seven website the price to go full custom on the Axiom SG, but Moots does not have the price, how much for a full custom Moots frame?

Lastly, what about Dean?


----------



## mendo

No doubt some more informed riders will weigh in. I think of Seven of as having some more race oriented models whereas Moots are seriously nice rides for the enthusiast. People tend to drool over the weld quality of Moots and not so much over Seven but I think the quality is comparable.


----------



## NealH

There is no doubt these are the premier Ti bikes on the market so, you can't make a bad choice with Moots or Seven. However, the customization offered by Seven can work for you or against you depending on how your preferences are interpreted. Moots will customize the geometry but, not the tubes. So, there is less room for error with the Moots - all things considered. If you have full confidence in your Seven dealer's ability to fit you and interpret your preferences, then the Seven might ultimately please you the most - welds be damned. 

Because I historically associate Moots with the ultimate quality in a Ti bike (just look at those welds and their customer satisfaction index), I would opt for one of these first. Then my next bike would be a Seven.


----------



## MCF

Good information..I do like that Moots using standard 'large diameter' tubing...one less thing to mess up..I am leaning toward a Moots.


----------



## D-Town

I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I think a full custom Moots frame is $300-400 more than the off the shelf frame price. And they can use larger diameter tubes for larger frames/riders. 

If one company doesn't call out to you more than the other, go with the shop (and person doing the fitting, interviewing, etc.) you are most comfortable with and addresses your questions and concerns best. If you don't get that phase right, you obvioulsy won't end up with the custom frame that's ideal for you.


----------



## StreamerT10

MCF said:


> Good information..I do like that Moots using standard 'large diameter' tubing...one less thing to mess up..I am leaning toward a Moots.


Moots are great. If you're in that price range you should be considering some other folks as well:

Carl Strong
Lynskey
Kish
...


----------



## tigoat

I have a Moots and have seen a lot of Sevens but Moots would still be my first choice. The workmandship of a Moots frame is second to none and you must own to one in order to understand the love for it. Seven makes some nice ti frames but Moots is still better. I think the extra for a custom geometry is up to $475 now so a Seven ti frame equivalent of Moots might be cheaper if cost is a factor for you. If not then toss a coin and then pick one accordingly.


----------



## HAL9000

Look at Dean


----------



## O-Man

A few thoughts: Apart from anything else, the finish on the Moots is very different than then the finish on the Seven. You might like one or the other, but I'd be surprised if you were indifferent. Second, if you're going custom, the choice of dealer (if one is involved at all) is key and may make more of a difference than any difference between manufacturers. Bad measurements or bad advice on choices can kill you. Lastly, if you're looking at custom, widen your search and check out Carl Strong. He built me a killer custom Ti that's gorgeous and does everything I wanted it to do.


----------



## bconneraz

as the owner of a Moots and a Seven, I'll chime in about the perceived "weld quality." Both bikes are beautiful. The reason IMO that the welds on the Moots "look" better is because the welds are shot peened. The Seven welds haven't been smoothed over. The seven is like a beautiful woman without make-up, and the Moots is like a beautiful woman with a little concealer. That being said, they are both amazing. I personally like the Seven finish because if it gets a surface scratch, I can buff it out with Scotch Brite pad. I can't do that with my Moots.


----------



## nor_cal_rider

bconneraz said:


> as the owner of a Moots and a Seven, I'll chime in about the perceived "weld quality." Both bikes are beautiful. The reason IMO that the welds on the Moots "look" better is because the welds are shot peened. The Seven welds haven't been smoothed over. The seven is like a beautiful woman without make-up, and the Moots is like a beautiful woman with a little concealer. That being said, they are both amazing. I personally like the Seven finish because if it gets a surface scratch, I can buff it out with Scotch Brite pad. I can't do that with my Moots.


Please clarify why I couldn;t do that to a Moots? Is there something about the finish on the Moots that makes it less "buffable"?


----------



## Darth Moots

Recently got a Moots. Love it. Love the way it feels descending - so solid. Love the way it turns nasty roads rideable (compared to my last aluminum bike). 

I saw another biker on a Seven today and felt no jealousy. I was happy for him and hoped that he was enjoying his ride. 

If I had bought a Seven (instead of a Moots) and saw someone today riding a Moots, I probably would have felt regret for not buying the Moots. I don't know why, but I know this would have been the case.


----------



## DionSF

> If I had bought a Seven (instead of a Moots) and saw someone today riding a Moots, I probably would have felt regret for not buying the Moots. I don't know why, but I know this would have been the case.


I'm the exact opposite. I'm so smug about owning my new Seven. Nothing, absolutely nothing I have seen is nicer then my Seven.:thumbsup:

p.s. The custom fit is perfect no matter what position I am on the bike. Whichever you decide - find a great fitter and go custom.


----------



## gearguywb

gee...want to guess which one I would pick?


----------



## Mootsie

DionSF said:


> I'm the exact opposite. I'm so smug about owning my new Seven. Nothing, absolutely nothing I have seen is nicer then my Seven.:thumbsup:
> 
> p.s. The custom fit is perfect no matter what position I am on the bike. Whichever you decide - find a great fitter and go custom.


 Your bottle cages don't match!!!:cryin:


----------



## DionSF

The cages match the tubes.



> Your bottle cages don't match!!!


----------



## john11f

i was in the same situation but my dealer (also sells moots) persuaded me to get an eriksen. cheaper to go custom and you get the same welds as a moots.


----------



## Bob Ross

john11f said:


> i was in the same situation but my dealer (also sells moots) persuaded me to get an eriksen. cheaper to go custom and you get the same welds as a moots.



I was wondering how long it would take someone to mention Kent! 

I would have a hard time choosing between a Moots & a Seven (although ultimately I think my vote would go to the Moots... aesthetically Moots > Seven imho). But I think it would be easier for me to choose between a "Custom Manufacturer" (like Moots and Seven) and a "Custom Builder" (like Eriksen and Strong...Carl Strong describes the differences here: http://www.strongframes.com/choose_builder/)

Something about taking the middleman -- in this case, your LBS -- out of the equation is very appealing to me. I think I'd rather do business with Kent or Carl; if I'm getting a custom bike I want to dialog with the actual guy who's building that bike for me. I want to know who actually fabricated my frame. 

OTOH, I can certainly see the value of having that middleman there, especially if they're knowledgeable, experienced, and (most importantly) conveniently located. So uh...


COINTOSS!


----------



## john11f

yeah but unfortunately, i'm having problems with my LBS. for some reason after the handshake, the personal touch disappears.

it's frustrating since i went with the eriksen knowing i'm part of the building process. I DON'T FEEL IT with my dealer.

i'm giving it a week or two afterwhich, i'll talk straight to kent (it'll be expensive calling long distance though since i'm from outisde the U.S.).


----------



## Ride-Fly

HAL9000 said:


> Look at Dean


Hal,
you have a nice Dean. How long did it take to get delivered? I've been waiting since Sep '08. No matter how nice it is when I get mine, I seriously doubt I would ever recommend Dean to anyone.


----------



## Mootsie

DionSF said:


> The cages match the tubes.


Dah.


----------



## rideonemoretime

You have to stop your comparisons with the Seven Alaris (which by the way costs less than a Moots), Moots does not build a bike like the Axiom (which is Seven's flagship model). The Alaris and the Moots are both straight gauge ti, but you have more tubing choices via Seven.


----------



## Thom H

I have a hard time on a $6k bike having freeking pop rivets. There is something so wrong about that. Please don't give me the thing about cross threading a waterbottle boss. If you do that you don't deserve a nice bike. Seven makes some nice light fast bikes, but Pop Rivets, did I mention Pop Rivets?


----------



## rideonemoretime

yes - Shame on Seven for making a bike repairable without having to replace a downtube.


----------



## john11f

so, does seven make the best ti frame because of the choices of tubes to make them? eriksen, strong, moots aren't up to par?


----------



## rideonemoretime

*Not saying that the other guys don't make a great bike...*

Not sure what the level of in-house tube manipulation is from Carl or Kent, But Moots offers straight gauge ti bikes, not butted like an Axiom. The comparison is not Seven being better, but the fact that the Alaris is the comparable bike to what their competition offers at a lower price than Moots and it is custom at no extra charge.I owned a Compact and it was VERY nice, not nicer than an Alaris - but not worse either. A custom geometry Alaris would have been better for ME.

All of the above offer very nice frames, but Seven does have 2 products in Ti that are unique. Also if in the hunt for Ti, Serotta offers several processes that others don't too (at least that I am aware of). A Legend Ti without carbon stays is right in the price mix too.


----------



## Thom H

Note to self.... do not let rideonemoretime ever work on my bikes. Isn't smart enough to figure out that if you are stupid enough to cross thread a bottle boss, you don't have to cut the whole tube off the bike to retap the hole with a bigger tap. Then has the the moxy to mock someone who does. Dude hire a mechanic.


----------



## rideonemoretime

I am not mocking anyone, but I have seen plenty of crashed race bikes with ffed up downtubes from steel water bottle cages. How does the fact that Seven, along with many other high quality manufactures use a replaceable water bottle rivet make the bike any less quality? I'm sure you'll give me a friendly answer.

Have you had a problem with a replaceable water bottle boss? If you did, you could replace it...

Re-tapping a ti frame is doable, but why not have it good as new with the right sized threads. 

Your original point is a non-issue - But thanks for the harsh smackdown!


----------



## gitoutdaway

DionSF said:


> I'm the exact opposite. I'm so smug about owning my new Seven. Nothing, absolutely nothing I have seen is nicer then my Seven.:thumbsup:
> 
> p.s. The custom fit is perfect no matter what position I am on the bike. Whichever you decide - find a great fitter and go custom.



Custom Fit>??

Then how come you're stem is like 3 inches above the headtube, pointing straight up and its like 80mm??

No offense, but...

Who the heck fitted you? Helen Keller?


----------



## Thom H

Not being hostile dude, but there are a bunch of ways to fix a ti bottle boss that some mutt cross threaded and bigger tap is one. What difference does a 1 or 2 mm screw change make?. Or you could the fill the hole with ti rod and make the hole smaller,the same or larger for all that matters. You don't have to put a new tube in.
Back when Ti frames ruled the peloton i saw many crashed but not trashed ti frames, never saw a downtube damaged by a bottle cage. Even a thin tube of Ti is way stronger than a bottle cage. Rare to see a steel cage on a race bike anyway.
I bet I have seen close to 30 bikes at triathlons ( I used to mech a lot) that had their pop rivets popped in shipping and the rider was screwed 3,000 miles from home and no rivet tool in sight. The pop rivets never break at a bike shop, they are like derail hangers, they sneak up on you at a bad time. In my 45 years of cycling, I have never seen a steel bike or a ti bike with a problem on welded bosses. I have seen a bunch of alum, carbon and ti bikes with popped pop rivets.
I don't understand why you would ever plan something out that stupid. I guess it must be cheaper. I would bet that Kent E, Moots, Matt Chester and all the rest of the welded ti bikes have less than a few bikes returned for ti welds coming in busted over the years. I know of 4 guys on our team that have had to have their Sevens pop rivets replaced. Especially the mtb dudes. Pop rivets are a perfect solution for a problem that doesn't exist. I can give you the names of several Seven dealers that think just like I do.


----------



## cpark

MCF said:


> Tall rider here considering going custom Ti.....one LBS reps Moots and one reps Seven, What advantages/disadvantages would I have going with either one considering this will be a full custom frame for a 6'5" rider? Of course, one shop swears by Moots and one swears by Seven.
> 
> Considering Axiom SG and Moots VA Moots. I know from the Seven website the price to go full custom on the Axiom SG, but Moots does not have the price, how much for a full custom Moots frame?
> 
> Lastly, what about Dean?


So, which one did you end up getting?
Post a pic.....


----------



## rideonemoretime

Thom H said:


> Not being hostile dude, but there are a bunch of ways to fix a ti bottle boss that some mutt cross threaded and bigger tap is one. What difference does a 1 or 2 mm screw change make?. Or you could the fill the hole with ti rod and make the hole smaller,the same or larger for all that matters. You don't have to put a new tube in.
> Back when Ti frames ruled the peloton i saw many crashed but not trashed ti frames, never saw a downtube damaged by a bottle cage. Even a thin tube of Ti is way stronger than a bottle cage. Rare to see a steel cage on a race bike anyway.
> I bet I have seen close to 30 bikes at triathlons ( I used to mech a lot) that had their pop rivets popped in shipping and the rider was screwed 3,000 miles from home and no rivet tool in sight. The pop rivets never break at a bike shop, they are like derail hangers, they sneak up on you at a bad time. In my 45 years of cycling, I have never seen a steel bike or a ti bike with a problem on welded bosses. I have seen a bunch of alum, carbon and ti bikes with popped pop rivets.
> I don't understand why you would ever plan something out that stupid. I guess it must be cheaper. I would bet that Kent E, Moots, Matt Chester and all the rest of the welded ti bikes have less than a few bikes returned for ti welds coming in busted over the years. I know of 4 guys on our team that have had to have their Sevens pop rivets replaced. Especially the mtb dudes. Pop rivets are a perfect solution for a problem that doesn't exist. I can give you the names of several Seven dealers that think just like I do.


That's allot of broken pop rivets you have seen. It seems to be a non issue in my area, but maybe it's different where you are - who knows. I really don't even care, because I have never witnessed the problems of pop rivets like you have. Out of the couple hundred Sevens I have been around, never once a problem. My personal MTB has never had a problem. If it was a known issue, Seven would have taken care of it - they are a very upstanding company.


----------

