# Busted for Mechanical Doping



## MMsRepBike

UCI investigates possible bike fraud at cyclo-cross Worlds | Cyclingnews.com

Motors scandal: Indications that Belgian Under 23 rider becomes the first to be caught for mechanical doping | CyclingTips

UCI detains suspicious bike at cyclocross worlds - VeloNews.com



> The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) confirms that pursuant to the UCI’s Regulations on technological fraud a bike has been detained for further investigation following checks at the Women’s Under 23 race of the 2016 UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships. This does not concern any of the riders on the podium.














> Our auditors made checks at the start and during the race in the pit and they have established mechanical fraud


----------



## Aadub

Wonder if it'll be OK once she produces the 'script that her Doctor wrote her for this?


----------



## MMsRepBike

Seems the motor is crank based. Battery seems to have been in the seatpost. Something about being controlled from the pits with a tablet or something.

Not a notable rider with no notable recent wins or anything that I see. 

Interesting story, can't wait for the UCI to give us lots of juicy pics... or will they.


----------



## Aadub

UCI could fix this by banning batteries from bikes.


----------



## Mackers

She is the reigning European champion and was the favorite to win today.
Not really a nobody...


----------



## MMsRepBike

Mackers said:


> She is the reigning European champion and was the favorite to win today.
> Not really a nobody...


Oh my bad. My quick look at procyclingstats didn't do me any good.


----------



## Marc

All right that does it.

I will no longer laugh at the UCI for tearing apart rider's bikes looking for motors.


----------



## Alaska Mike

More details emerge about motorized doping at cyclo-cross worlds | CyclingTips
These lines were pure gold:
[Van den Driessche’s father]_"But if the intention was to cheat, would you still ride that bike? Femke has been European and Belgian Champion. Why would you do in the world championships?”

His words will likely be viewed with some scepticism, as her brother is currently serving a ban for EPO. _

This is indisputable proof that eBikes are the root of all evil.


----------



## Aadub

I blame Elon Musk


----------



## MMsRepBike

> “It’s not Femke’s bike,” he claimed to De Staandard. “The bike was in the pit but it is [belonging to] someone from her entourage, who sometimes trains with her. But it was never the intention that it would be raced.


Ooooooh. Oh I see now. Oh, okay.



> her brother is currently serving a ban for EPO.


Um. Well now. Now well. Well.


Burn the witch!!

:mad5::mad5:


----------



## burgrat

Wow, that is really egregious. I never would have thought this would happen in CX.


----------



## spdntrxi

Marc said:


> All right that does it.
> 
> I will no longer laugh at the UCI for tearing apart rider's bikes looking for motors.


I agree... I always thought the UCI was crazy as well.


----------



## MMsRepBike




----------



## Trek_5200

redacted.


----------



## TricrossRich

MMsRepBike said:


> Seems the motor is crank based. Battery seems to have been in the seatpost. Something about being controlled from the pits with a tablet or something.


Not controlled by tablet... it was detected using some sort of tablet. Rumors are some sort of heat detection equipment.


----------



## Jwiffle

spdntrxi said:


> I agree... I always thought the UCI was crazy as well.


Yep, me, too. Didn't figure anyone would actually be so stupid or lazy as to use a motor. Seems like it would be too easy for someone else to notice. Maybe not on cyclocross, since it's probably noisy enough competitors wouldn't hear it.

I still doubt Cancellara ever even played with an e-bike.


----------



## Local Hero

I'm impressed with this girl's bike handling. I regularly overcook turns in 'cross and I'm just using my legs. With a motor I would smack into a tree.


----------



## ewarnerusa

In hindsight, a CX start is an "ideal" situation to use an electric motor. Race starts are always a chaotic bunch sprint, so there is noise and chaos to hide the sound. And the cheater benefits from hundreds of extra watts in their sprint. Then you're allowed to pit and swap bikes, as in ditch the evidence.
I want to give some opportunity for explanations, but so far it's a ridiculous claim of "it was a friend's bikes that accidentally got put into my race bike quiver." Really? A friend's bike with a totally illegal electric motor that I assume is all dressed up in team livery that "finds" its way into the race bike quiver? Smells like bs to me.


----------



## TricrossRich

Its unclear to me if she actually used the bike.. some articles make it sound like it was in her pit area and she hadn't used it.. that it was discovered in her pit area while she was racing.... but other articles make it sound like the bike she was riding, the one that failed, that she walked across the line with at the end of the race was the one with the motor. Either way, I still she cheated, I'm just trying to get clarification of what happened.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Femke Van den Driessche denies using motor at cyclo-cross World Championships | Cyclingnews.com

Worth the read.

She never rode the bike with the motor in the race. They grabbed it in the pits before she had a chance to swap to it. That left her with one bike. That one bike had mechanical trouble and she couldn't finish the race on the bike because of it. She walked. 

The words coming out of her mouth...

So the bike wasn't hers, it was hers last year but she sold it to a guy, a friend of hers. This buddy showed up with her dad and brother I guess at the reconnaissance and set his bike up against the team truck. Her mechanics mistook it for hers because it looks identical and cleaned it and put it on the team truck by mistake. If she would have been riding that bike all year she "would have been more consistent." Even though she did nothing wrong she thinks this is the end of her career.


So wait...

If they mistook his bike for hers what happened to hers? He must have taken it by mistake when he left the recon right? And of course he didn't notice because they're identical other than that motor he had installed right?

Sounds legit.


----------



## ewarnerusa

It does sound like reasonable way to sneak the hot bike into the quiver, in collusion with her personal entourage that are in on it, but under the nose of and undetected by the rest of the staff who may not be in on the scam.


----------



## DaveG

I totally want one of those hidden motors! That's one upgrade that will definitely make you faster and its cheaper than eTap.

You have to wonder how many times other riders have cheated like this (assuming her story about it being a friends bike doesn't hold up)


----------



## burgrat

How is a motor like this installed? I assume it's a carbon frame, is it dropped into the down tube and somehow attached to the frame + connected to the bottom bracket? I would seem to me that it would have to be installed during the frame manufacturing process, rather than retrofitted to a frame. Does anyone know about this?

As far as her excuse, how would she not personally check and test the bikes she would be riding in the World Championships race? Maybe she is saying this all happened at the last minute before the race where they mistakenly grabbed the bike. I don't believe she didn't know about this. This whole thing just stinks.


----------



## DaveG

burgrat said:


> How is a motor like this installed? I assume it's a carbon frame, is it dropped into the down tube and somehow attached to the frame + connected to the bottom bracket? I would seem to me that it would have to be installed during the frame manufacturing process, rather than retrofitted to a frame. Does anyone know about this?
> 
> As far as her excuse, how would she not personally check and test the bikes she would be riding in the World Championships race? Maybe she is saying this all happened at the last minute before the race where they mistakenly grabbed the bike. I don't believe she didn't know about this. This whole thing just stinks.


This is a motor that is available to buy

vivax assist 4.0 - vom Bike zum leichten E-Bike

The motor is in the seat tube and uses a worm gear to turn the BB. They claim it can adds 200w, which is significant. It seem to me that it would only work with round tubes


----------



## burgrat

DaveG said:


> This is a motor that is available to buy
> 
> vivax assist 4.0 - vom Bike zum leichten E-Bike
> 
> The motor is in the seat tube and uses a worm gear to turn the BB. They claim it can adds 200w, which is significant. It seem to me that it would only work with round tubes


I get that part, but I assume you don't just drop it into the down tube and it fits precisely. For a carbon frame (non-perfectly round down tube), how is the motor attached to the down tube and can it be done retroactively? I think it would take a very precise installation for the worm drive gearing to run well and I'm wondering if the frame manufacturers are involved.


----------



## TricrossRich

MMsRepBike said:


> So wait...
> 
> If they mistook his bike for hers what happened to hers? He must have taken it by mistake when he left the recon right? And of course he didn't notice because they're identical other than that motor he had installed right?
> 
> Sounds legit.


And obviously her brother's friend is exactly the same size as her.... so the fit is exactly the same.


----------



## MMsRepBike




----------



## Local Hero

Her story is falling apart.


----------



## Fredrico

burgrat said:


> I get that part, but I assume you don't just drop it into the down tube and it fits precisely. For a carbon frame (non-perfectly round down tube), how is the motor attached to the down tube and can it be done retroactively? I think it would take a very precise installation for the worm drive gearing to run well and I'm wondering if the frame manufacturers are involved.


This article did say installation is a difficult operation for the average mech. 

Hidden motors for road bikes exist — here’s how they work | CyclingTips


----------



## kjdhawkhill

I demand this thread be moved to the Wrenching/Components section where we can really dig into the effectiveness, aerodynamics, weight, cost benefits, and then have someone finish it with "its better to upgrade the motor than to purchase a lighter/faster/stiffer component." 

Well, I ask, what if a motor is a purchased component? 

Its cheating, just as EPO is. Actually, its more like cheating by riding a moped in a bike race.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Watch out Strava, it's coming.


----------



## DrSmile

I've stated before that I already considered electronic shifting cheating. A bike should be manually operated, measuring its progress electronically is sensible. I view this as a slippery slope problem. What about a regen type system? It only uses human power but is still clearly against the spirit of cycling, and current uci rules, but one could argue that this should be allowed. Electronic shifting is allowed because of corporate interests, not because of safety or any other reasonable justification. One shouldn't need electricity to ride a bike.


----------



## Lelandjt

MMsRepBike said:


> Watch out Strava, it's coming.


All the flat and climbing segments will become meaningless. Strava will only be used by enduro riders timing downhill segments. My dream for a perfect future is coming to fruition!


----------



## 32and3cross

DrSmile said:


> I've stated before that I already considered electronic shifting cheating. A bike should be manually operated, measuring its progress electronically is sensible. I view this as a slippery slope problem. What about a regen type system? It only uses human power but is still clearly against the spirit of cycling, and current uci rules, but one could argue that this should be allowed. Electronic shifting is allowed because of corporate interests, not because of safety or any other reasonable justification. One shouldn't need electricity to ride a bike.


That BS argument, electronic shifting is nothing like a motor in the seat tube.


----------



## DaveG

Fredrico said:


> This article did say installation is a difficult operation for the average mech.
> ]


If you are going to cheat in a UCI race its probably best to spend the extra 150 Euros and get it professionally installed


----------



## BCSaltchucker

Wow. if true. Look fwd to the pics of the offending mechanism, and how much battery it has. Can't get more than a few brief moments of riding power (some suggest it might be a 200W motor?) from a battery that weighs under 5 lbs. Then the motor is a dead weight most of the race, and very heavy to carry up the running sections

however, this is the detail we know so far from the UCI: More details emerge about motorised doping at cyclocross worlds | Ella
- they lifted the seat post and found some wires
- they were unable to remove the crankset - something that is normally very easy as we all know
- they sealed up and took the bike away for further scrutiny by UCI officials

But could the 'wires' just be Di2 wires for the electronic shifting and Di2seatpost battery? And the crankset just damaged or stuck?

however, the surly people involved seemed to have already admitted that the bike did have motor - the father, the mechanic, the 'training partner'


----------



## ozzybmx

Lelandjt said:


> All the flat and climbing segments will become meaningless. Strava will only be used by enduro riders timing downhill segments. My dream for a perfect future is coming to fruition!


Keen, spending $4000 on a motor to take out a Strava segment.


----------



## PixelPaul

Another sad chapter for cycling. What a shame, such an amazing sport that can't seem to get out of it's own way.


----------



## love4himies

MMsRepBike said:


> So the bike wasn't hers, it was hers last year but she sold it to a guy, a friend of hers. This buddy showed up with her dad *and brother *I guess at the reconnaissance and set his bike up against the team truck. Her mechanics mistook it for hers because it looks identical and cleaned it and put it on the team truck by mistake. If she would have been riding that bike all year she "would have been more consistent." Even though she did nothing wrong she thinks this is the end of her career.


Now would that be the brother currently banned for EPO I wonder???? Sounds like a family that wants to win at all costs.


----------



## love4himies

ewarnerusa said:


> It does sound like reasonable way to sneak the hot bike into the quiver, in collusion with her personal entourage that are in on it, but under the nose of and undetected by the rest of the staff who may not be in on the scam.


It certainly does.


----------



## love4himies

TricrossRich said:


> And obviously her brother's friend is exactly the same size as her.... so the fit is exactly the same.


Wonder if the friend is male or female. Because if it was a male who had enough money to have a motor installed, he would probably get his own saddle.

This is just too coincidental to be true. Why in hell would a "friend" bring a bike that has a motor in it, painted the same as the team colours, then leave it in the pit area?


----------



## upstateSC-rider

love4himies said:


> Wonder if the friend is male or female. Because if it was a male who had enough money to have a motor installed, he would probably get his own saddle.
> 
> This is just too coincidental to be true. Why in hell would a "friend" bring a bike that has a motor in it, painted the same as the team colours, then leave it in the pit area?


Exactly.
At least she hasn't blamed her twin...Yet.


----------



## Keoki

Future porn star..


----------



## igor99

If they modified the frame to fit the motor that'll void the Wilier warranty I'm sure.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Merckx calls for life bans for motorised doping offences | Cyclingnews.com

Not sure about all of these dopers calling for a lifetime ban.

Is having a motor really worse than taking drugs that forever benefit you Eddy? You are the expert after all.

(for those that don't know King Eddy is just a scumbag doper like the rest, been caught several times.)


----------



## MMsRepBike

igor99 said:


> If they modified the frame to fit the motor that'll void the Wilier warranty I'm sure.


Wilier Triestina to take legal action after motor found in bike at cyclo-cross Worlds | Cyclingnews.com

Void the warranty? Wilier is a very small family company, they're going to do more than that. Their reputation is at stake, this could ruin them. They're not going to let it though, they're going on the attack.

https://www.salden.nl/nl/wilier-triestina-e-cycl-ocrosser-met-trapondersteuning.html

Look what's already being sold...

And this is my guess on custom installation: All custom that's needed is a port in the lower seat tube to secure the motor. Campy EPS port anyone? So with many frames, especially those built for Campy, no modification at all is needed.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Electromagnetic wheels are the new frontier of mechanical doping, claims Gazzetta dello Sport | Cyclingnews.com












> “A motor hidden in the seat tube is old stuff, almost artisan. It’s been overtaken, it’s a poor man’s doping,” Ghisalberti writes. “The new frontier is far more technologically advanced and ten times as expensive. It’s in the rear wheel: it costs 200,000 Euros, and there’s a waiting list of six months. The first type uses a motor to turn the cranks; the second is electromagnetic.”
> 
> There have already been claims that motors have been used to win Italian sportive events, where former professionals and local amateurs often ride to secure media coverage, small sponsorship and bragging rights.
> 
> 
> “I’ve sold 1,200 [of the old system] in Italy in the last few years. I can only laugh when I read the Gran Fondo results, I could rewrite almost all of them,” Gazzetta dello Sport quotes its ‘Mister X’ source as saying.


Fancy power wheels are coming soon to an LBS near you.


----------



## igor99

MMsRepBike said:


> Wilier Triestina to take legal action after motor found in bike at cyclo-cross Worlds | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Void the warranty? Wilier is a very small family company, they're going to do more than that. Their reputation is at stake, this could ruin them. They're not going to let it though, they're going on the attack.
> 
> https://www.salden.nl/nl/wilier-triestina-e-cycl-ocrosser-met-trapondersteuning.html
> 
> Look what's already being sold...
> 
> And this is my guess on custom installation: All custom that's needed is a port in the lower seat tube to secure the motor. Campy EPS port anyone? So with many frames, especially those built for Campy, no modification at all is needed.


Good on Wilier to go after them!


----------



## burgrat

MMsRepBike said:


> Fancy power wheels are coming soon to an LBS near you.


For 200,000 Euros you can buy the whole LBS. I can see some So Cal Master's racer dropping that on one of these wheels then wrecking it in an industrial park criterium. Anything for a win!


----------



## MMsRepBike

The Italian guy interviewed in that article does seem completely full of himself. But I won't totally discount the fancy power wheels thing based on that, it's probably real in some sort of capacity. But most of what that guy is saying is hot air in my opinion.


----------



## Lelandjt

ozzybmx said:


> Keen, spending $4000 on a motor to take out a Strava segment.


How much do non racers spend on aero and light parts to set Strava PRs, not even KOMs?


----------



## DaveG

igor99 said:


> Good on Wilier to go after them!


Instead of suing her why doesn't Wilier start a new ad campaign claiming they are the only bike 100% motor compatible. There appears to be a good market for that


----------



## MMsRepBike

Lelandjt said:


> How much do non racers spend on aero and light parts to set Strava PRs, not even KOMs?


Yeah, just think wheels. Or just frames even. The market for "going faster while cycling" is huge. It might be as big or bigger than the market for "buying a bike." Almost all of the expensive cycling stuff is aerodynamic centric, all in the name of going faster with less effort.

As said in the wheel article, the real problem is the amateur scene. The granfondo rides and sportive rides and whatnot. Saturated apparently. 

Now that it's in mainstream news I think it'll take off. I think we're going to see lots of motors and doped bikes and such. I think there will be Freds showing up for group rides on them. Like normal 35 mile LBS A/B group rides... 

The future is bleak.


----------



## Local Hero

DaveG said:


> Instead of suing her why doesn't Wilier start a new ad campaign claiming they are the only bike 100% motor compatible. There appears to be a good market for that


Or a campaign that pokes fun at the situation. 
_
Wilier Trestina - 1100 grams* for Frame and Fork

*motor not included_


----------



## config

I have to agree with this.


DrSmile said:


> I've stated before that I already considered electronic shifting cheating. A bike should be manually operated, measuring its progress electronically is sensible. I view this as a slippery slope problem. What about a regen type system? It only uses human power but is still clearly against the spirit of cycling, and current uci rules, but one could argue that this should be allowed. Electronic shifting is allowed because of corporate interests, not because of safety or any other reasonable justification. One shouldn't need electricity to ride a bike.


----------



## Local Hero

Why stop at electric shifting? I actually consider computers, powermeters, and HRMs to be cheating. In fact, shifting is cheating. Actually, I dislike the mechanical advantage that wheels have over bipedal locomotion. The only true races should be running races, barefoot and naked.


----------



## Chader09

MMsRepBike said:


> Yeah, just think wheels. Or just frames even. The market for "going faster while cycling" is huge. It might be as big or bigger than the market for "buying a bike." Almost all of the expensive cycling stuff is aerodynamic centric, all in the name of going faster with less effort.
> 
> As said in the wheel article, the real problem is the amateur scene. The granfondo rides and sportive rides and whatnot. Saturated apparently.
> 
> Now that it's in mainstream news I think it'll take off. I think we're going to see lots of motors and doped bikes and such. I think there will be Freds showing up for group rides on them. Like normal 35 mile LBS A/B group rides...
> 
> * The future is bleak.*


Sad, but likely true. I would bet that the average rider looking for an "edge" is more willing to do it through technology rather than chemicals.

I know there is a definite group of amateurs that have and will continue to take PED's. But there are known (as well as unknown) long-term risks of doing so. Not everyone wants to take that risk.

It seems the new avenue opens up access to speed and power without the potential harm to their body. Many might even justify it as no different or worse than someone with a high-zoot bike and gear with aero/weight advantages.

I suspect many of the cheaters actually think they are just leveling the playing field and don't see what they do as really "bad".

Looks like pro cycling is headed for another stiff round of scrutiny from the world press as we move into another season.


----------



## DrSmile

Wouldn't you need stator coils or magnets in the chain and seat stays to make those wheels work? And the rotating weight gained would be significant, especially so far towards the edge of the wheel.


----------



## Marc

MMsRepBike said:


> Yeah, just think wheels. Or just frames even. The market for "going faster while cycling" is huge. It might be as big or bigger than the market for "buying a bike." Almost all of the expensive cycling stuff is aerodynamic centric, all in the name of going faster with less effort.
> 
> As said in the wheel article, the real problem is the amateur scene. The granfondo rides and sportive rides and whatnot. Saturated apparently.
> 
> Now that it's in mainstream news I think it'll take off. I think we're going to see lots of motors and doped bikes and such. I think there will be Freds showing up for group rides on them. Like normal 35 mile LBS A/B group rides...
> 
> The future is bleak.


Past few years on Tour de Nebraska we've had a few people show up with motor-assisted bikes.

It gets people out on bikes who otherwise wouldn't...which I suppose is good. But for the fitness (competition) junkies it is at best annoying. Although usually those motor-assisted bikes can't schlep their riders up the first hill without being dropped by avid amateur fit folks. At least here in the Great Plains. It comes down to how you use them, like most things.


----------



## Typetwelve

Marc said:


> Past few years on Tour de Nebraska we've had a few people show up with motor-assisted bikes.
> 
> It gets people out on bikes who otherwise wouldn't...which I suppose is good. But for the fitness (competition) junkies it is at best annoying. Although usually those motor-assisted bikes can't schlep their riders up the first hill without being dropped by avid amateur fit folks. At least here in the Great Plains. It comes down to how you use them, like most things.


It's a side note, but I just couldn't bring myself to do that on an recreational ride. Commuting? Possibly, I'll admit I have looked at the Specialized Turbo, but that's for getting to/from work only. On a road ride for fitness? I couldn't do it...I'd feel like I cheated.

To the person who mentioned this kind of crap for Strava segments...I can 100% see that happening. People are competitive crazy and will do anything to "win". Doping your bike to go out and set pointless KOM records? Yeah...I can definitely see that happening.


----------



## Lelandjt

Our shop sold a Specialized Turbo to a guy's barely cycling girlfriend so she could go on occassional rides with him. Kind of like a tandem in that it allows a lower level cyclist to join faster riders. I have no problem with it outside of real competition. As for Strava, that should always be taken with a grain of salt. Between the inaccuracy of different phones' GPS and varying weather (20mph tailwinds) the only point of Strava is to compare your effort to your own past efforts. The only real problem I see with inconspicuous electric motors is if they're snuck into a race.

As electronic gadgets keep getting more and more intertwined into life I think people won't see a division between bikes and electric assist bikes. The only way would be like the ludite above said, nix all the electronics from bikes. In 20 years we'll look back at the power meters, Garmins, and Di2 as having ushered in the world of electric assist enthusiast bikes.


----------



## den bakker

Typetwelve said:


> To the person who mentioned this kind of crap for Strava segments...I can 100% see that happening. People are competitive crazy and will do anything to "win". Doping your bike to go out and set pointless KOM records? Yeah...I can definitely see that happening.


 if that's the purpose just hang on to a car or throw the GPS into one.


----------



## Typetwelve

den bakker said:


> if that's the purpose just hang on to a car or throw the GPS into one.


Probably wouldn't be the first time someone did something like that...


----------



## mpre53

MMsRepBike said:


> Merckx calls for life bans for motorised doping offences | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Not sure about all of these dopers calling for a lifetime ban.
> 
> Is having a motor really worse than taking drugs that forever benefit you Eddy? You are the expert after all.
> 
> (for those that don't know King Eddy is just a scumbag doper like the rest, been caught several times.)


Eddie got popped doing speed. Something that might (depending on your dosage and metabolism) give you a race-long benefit, but a life-long one? Hardly. :lol:


----------



## config

den bakker said:


> if that's the purpose just hang on to a car or throw the GPS into one.


Heck, I do all my Strava segments using my motorcycle. Everyone's finally catching on;-)


----------



## jaggrin

If some bottom of the food chain cross chick is doing this I believe that it's going on at the top except they are on motor 3.0 and she had 1.0 on her rig.


----------



## den bakker

jaggrin said:


> If some bottom of the food chain cross chick is doing this I believe that it's going on at the top except they are on motor 3.0 and she had 1.0 on her rig.


belgium champions in CC are bottom of the food chain now? 
chick? 
Don't you have some man cave you can go hide in?


----------



## jaggrin

den bakker said:


> belgium champions in CC are bottom of the food chain now?
> chick?
> Don't you have some man cave you can go hide in?[/QUOTe
> 
> That's right, the female Belgium CC champ in the grand scheme of things is at bottom of the food chain as it pertains to professional cycling. Look at the payout.


----------



## den bakker

jaggrin said:


> den bakker said:
> 
> 
> 
> belgium champions in CC are bottom of the food chain now?
> chick?
> Don't you have some man cave you can go hide in?[/QUOTe
> 
> That's right, the female Belgium CC champ in the grand scheme of things is at bottom of the food chain as it pertains to professional cycling. Look at the payout.
> 
> 
> 
> just when I thought it could not get more shallow. BAM.
Click to expand...


----------



## love4himies

den bakker said:


> belgium champions in CC are bottom of the food chain now?
> chick?
> Don't you have some man cave you can go hide in?





den bakker said:


> jaggrin said:
> 
> 
> 
> just when I thought it could not get more shallow. BAM.
> 
> 
> 
> Being a woman I would rather be called a "chick" by a man than have one who constantly demeans and makes "holier than thou" remarks on people's posts.
Click to expand...


----------



## DrSmile

I'm a little worried this will be used as a distractor to conceal actual doping." Hey look I don't have a motor in my bike, which is way worse than anything I could be injecting." The penalties should be equivalent because they're both cheating.


----------



## ewarnerusa

My understanding of the rule that this violation falls under applies to all technical violations, as in under 6.8 kilograms or too steep of seat angle. So the language of minimum 6 month suspension allows for penalties that match the level of offense. So using a too-light bike might warrant a minor 6 month suspension. There is no maximum penalty described for a first time offense, so I think that means a potential lifetime ban is at least on the menu for this type of egregious first time offense...


----------



## thighmaster

I know let's add a motor and call it, well how about Moto GP. It might catch on.


----------



## Local Hero




----------



## RkFast

love4himies said:


> den bakker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a woman I would rather be called a "chick" by a man than have one who constantly demeans and makes "holier than thou" remarks on people's posts.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Den's busted. Beautiful.
Click to expand...


----------



## MMsRepBike




----------



## spade2you

Very surprised a team like Astana or Saxo didn't get busted first.


----------



## DaveG

spade2you said:


> Very surprised a team like Astana or Saxo didn't get busted first.


They are purists. They believe in doing it old school, EPO and HGH


----------



## ziscwg

Lelandjt said:


> All the flat and climbing segments will become meaningless. Strava will only be used by enduro riders timing downhill segments. My dream for a perfect future is coming to fruition!


Most of the enduros I have race in had some bit of climbing or flat on the timed sections. So, this will work for me.


----------



## robwh9

There's a video of Ryder Hesjedal's bike starting to spin around on its own after coming to a stop after a crash.


----------



## Local Hero

Some of my instafacegram friends are talking about Spartacus. 


2:40-


----------



## JackDaniels

Local Hero said:


> Some of my instafacegram friends are talking about Spartacus.


They should because he is awesome.

Boonen himself admitted that he cramped on the climb. But hey let's post every video of a bike race where some rider rides away from some other rider who can't follow him. I mean it almost never happens.


Edit.
Who has the most powerful electric motor, cancellara, terpstra, degenkolb?


----------



## MMsRepBike




----------



## TricrossRich

DrSmile said:


> I'm a little worried this will be used as a distractor to conceal actual doping." Hey look I don't have a motor in my bike, which is way worse than anything I could be injecting." The penalties should be equivalent because they're both cheating.





ewarnerusa said:


> My understanding of the rule that this violation falls under applies to all technical violations, as in under 6.8 kilograms or too steep of seat angle. So the language of minimum 6 month suspension allows for penalties that match the level of offense. So using a too-light bike might warrant a minor 6 month suspension. There is no maximum penalty described for a first time offense, so I think that means a potential lifetime ban is at least on the menu for this type of egregious first time offense...


Yes, 6 months is the minimum. The difference here is that this violation falls under the jurisdiction of the UCI, so they have the ability to apply and enforce the rules as they see fit. A PED offense falls under the sanctions of WADA and enforcement has to follow their guidelines.


----------



## den bakker

love4himies said:


> den bakker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a woman I would rather be called a "chick" by a man than have one who constantly demeans and makes "holier than thou" remarks on people's posts.
> 
> 
> 
> actually the posters demean themselves most of the time.
> Like, for example, when people are more busy about me (blushing slightly here; although the attention by now is a bit creepy) than female cyclists are considered the bottom of the food chain.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jwiffle

robwh9 said:


> There's a video of Ryder Hesjedal's bike starting to spin around on its own after coming to a stop after a crash.


In the video I've seen, the bike never came to a stop. It's also played in slow motion, making everything appear to take longer. At actual speed, it just looks like a fall and the bike spins around in a normal manner. Doesn't look at all like a motor turning the bike.


----------



## TricrossRich

Jwiffle said:


> In the video I've seen, the bike never came to a stop. It's also played in slow motion, making everything appear to take longer. At actual speed, it just looks like a fall and the bike sounds around in a normal manner. Doesn't look at all like a motor turning the bike.


Additionally, the Hesjedal video was debunked relatively quickly... pick up your bike, get the wheel spinning real fast and put the bike on the ground the same way and your bike will react the same way.

https://youtu.be/aN7HjwZI-k0


----------



## ogre

JackDaniels said:


> But hey let's post every video of a bike race where some rider rides away from some other rider who can't follow him. I mean it almost never happens.
> 
> 
> Edit.
> Who has the most powerful electric motor, cancellara, terpstra, degenkolb?


I think Vincenzo Nibali had the most powerful motor at last year's Vuelta. But it wasn't electric.


----------



## ghettocop

robwh9 said:


> There's a video of Ryder Hesjedal's bike starting to spin around on its own after coming to a stop after a crash.


It was run over by a camera moto immediately after he crashed, giving that extra movement illusion.


----------



## MMsRepBike




----------



## robwh9

Jwiffle said:


> In the video I've seen, the bike never came to a stop. It's also played in slow motion, making everything appear to take longer. At actual speed, it just looks like a fall and the bike spins around in a normal manner. Doesn't look at all like a motor turning the bike.


That makes sense. I've followed Hesjedal's career, and he seems like a class act.
I like both mountain and road cycling, and I like it when a rider excells in both, as has Hesjedal and Cadel Evans. Floyd Landis too? Armstrong won the Leadville 100, although some call it a roadie ride. :+)


----------



## JackDaniels

robwh9 said:


> That makes sense. I've followed Hesjedal's career, and he seems like a class act.
> I like both mountain and road cycling, and I like it when a rider excells in both, as has Hesjedal and Cadel Evans. Floyd Landis too? Armstrong won the Leadville 100, although some call it a roadie ride. :+)


Hesjedal admitted to taking EPO. Class act...


----------



## ozzybmx

Lelandjt said:


> How much do non racers spend on aero and light parts to set Strava PRs, not even KOMs?


A 'PR' is just that, beating your own previous best. That may be with a new set of $3000 wheels or a new $10k+ bike, but the act of buying a 2kg - $4000 motor and fitting it to your bike for an out of character KOM or PR up a hill that you cant come close to any other time.. most would just go hire a moped for the day for $20 or do it in their car if they really wanted it that bad.


----------



## RkFast

den bakker said:


> actually the posters demean themselves most of the time.
> Like, for example, when people are more busy about me (blushing slightly here; although the attention by now is a bit creepy) than female cyclists are considered the bottom of the food chain.


Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understood what "bottom of the food chain" meant. Lighten up, Francis. Go back to PO where your "perpetually offended" nonsense plays.


----------



## den bakker

JackDaniels said:


> Hesjedal admitted to taking EPO. Class act...


yeah, a career built on dope. what a hero.


----------



## mpre53

DaveG said:


> They are purists. They believe in doing it old school, EPO and HGH


That's new old school. Old old school is speed and cortisone. :wink:


----------



## spade2you

mpre53 said:


> That's new old school. Old old school is speed and cortisone. :wink:


Motorized doping is new school. EPO and HGH are middle school.


----------



## aclinjury

Apparently bottom bracket motor is now old school.
The new technological doping possibilties lie in electromagnetic deep wheels

Electromagnetic wheels are the new frontier of mechanical doping, claims Gazzetta dello Sport | Cyclingnews.com

The most exciting news in cycling is the cheating going on.

The UCI can put an end to all this by imposing a lifetime ban.


----------



## DrSmile

There are so many interesting angles to this story. Wilier's situation is a perfect example, one might speculate that frame sponsors are going to be more reticent to sponsor winning teams in the future without some guarantees that they ride clean. Considering that some teams chose to fund their doping programs by selling such team bikes (according to Tyler Hamilton's book anyways), less bike sponsorship may even indirectly help to clean up the sport. The professional side of the sport seems to be gravitating towards Formula 1 like venues, so I'm not sure how this mess will financially affect the pro teams, nor how the perception of professional cycling would be perceived in those venues (like say, the middle east or China).


----------



## Migen21

So, as I understand it, she never actually rode the modified bike. It was in the pit area when she started the race, and was confiscated by UCI before she got to her pit for a bike swap? Another person is claiming ownership of the bike, and she denies any knowledge of it.

I know it's highly unlikely, but to play a little devils advocate, what if she's telling the truth? Everyone is quick to call for a lifetime ban (I don't necessarily disagree), but don't we need to be 100% sure that they are guilty before we drop that hammer?

If someone is clearly guilty, caught using a modified bike in a race, then by all means, ban them and everyone involved forever. But if there is even a smidgen of doubt, don't we need some due process before we ban a young person from cycling for life?


----------



## Local Hero

Well, where is her original spare bike?

And how stupid are her mechanics that they didn't notice one of her bikes has a motor?


----------



## Migen21

Local Hero said:


> Well, where is her original spare bike?
> 
> And how stupid are her mechanics that they didn't notice one of her bikes has a motor?


Those are great questions, and kind of demonstrate my point. We really don't know the exact details of the bike situation.

If it comes down to her brother or her mechanic being a dolt and mixing up bikes, or even if that is just a possibility, I'm not inclined to want her head on a platter. 

Like I said, I'm all for a lifetime ban for people caught cheating in such a way... lets just make sure they are really guilty before we go that far.


----------



## Alaska Mike

Migen21 said:


> Those are great questions, and kind of demonstrate my point. We really don't know the exact details of the bike situation.
> 
> If it comes down to her brother or her mechanic being a dolt and mixing up bikes, or even if that is just a possibility, I'm not inclined to want her head on a platter.
> 
> Like I said, I'm all for a lifetime ban for people caught cheating in such a way... lets just make sure they are really guilty before we go that far.


Her brother is serving a suspension for EPO. Her brother and father are facing jail time for trying to steal expensive birds. Strong ethics do not seem to be among the defining characteristics of that family.

They took the bike immediately, so the measurements were likely preserved. Compare it to her race bikes and any deviation from those would indicate her story may be plausible. She would still be liable, and I'm betting she'll get a severe penalty as a warning to others, but she may not get a lifetime ban.

I personally think she has very weak credibility.


----------



## DaveG

Alaska Mike said:


> Her brother is serving a suspension for EPO. Her brother and father are facing jail time for trying to steal expensive birds. Strong ethics do not seem to be among the defining characteristics of that family.
> 
> They took the bike immediately, so the measurements were likely preserved. Compare it to her race bikes and any deviation from those would indicate her story may be plausible. She would still be liable, and I'm betting she'll get a severe penalty as a warning to others, but she may not get a lifetime ban.
> 
> I personally think she has very weak credibility.


I saw in a report yesterday that the "friend" has come forward. I guess it took a few days to find some guy that was about the right size and stupid enough the play the fall guy. Next step: fabricate some story why the bike has a motor in it


----------



## PJay

This thread may be dead, but it is worth a try:

Dry run.

Her and some buddies were trying out this option to see how well it works, how to do it, hide it, etc. Her bro or someone else will be benefiting from what has been learned.

On supported rides, I carry what I would on an unsupported ride - it just helps me be prepared in the planning, gear, and fitness to ride with 5 liters of water.


----------



## MMsRepBike

PJay said:


> This thread may be dead, but it is worth a try:
> 
> Dry run.
> 
> Her and some buddies were trying out this option to see how well it works, how to do it, hide it, etc. Her bro or someone else will be benefiting from what has been learned.
> 
> On supported rides, I carry what I would on an unsupported ride - it just helps me be prepared in the planning, gear, and fitness to ride with 5 liters of water.


She used it in a previous race, video is above. Reading the newer articles tells us that the other racers knew it too. They all thought she was doped to the gills like her brother and they knew something was up on the koppenberg.


----------



## TricrossRich

MMsRepBike said:


> She used it in a previous race, video is above. Reading the newer articles tells us that the other racers knew it too. They all thought she was doped to the gills like her brother and they knew something was up on the koppenberg.


Did I miss something? Where's this other video?


----------



## den bakker

PJay said:


> This thread may be dead, but it is worth a try:
> 
> Dry run.
> 
> Her and some buddies were trying out this option to see how well it works, how to do it, hide it, etc. Her bro or someone else will be benefiting from what has been learned.
> 
> On supported rides, I carry what I would on an unsupported ride - it just helps me be prepared in the planning, gear, and fitness to ride with 5 liters of water.


picking worlds for a dry run?


----------



## MMsRepBike

TricrossRich said:


> Did I miss something? Where's this other video?


it's on the first page of this thread. The video posted is the exact moment when she was most likely using it on camera. The race is Koppenbergcross, you can watch the whole race here:






you can read this for thoughts from those there:

Brammeier on hidden motors: ?Something seemed a bit weird? at Koppenbergcross | CyclingTips

I was originally right in this thread calling her an unknown. She was. She basically came out of nowhere and started dominating all of a sudden. She's an idiot, this much is for certain.


----------



## DaveG

MMsRepBike said:


> it's on the first page of this thread. The video posted is the exact moment when she was most likely using it on camera. The race is Koppenbergcross, you can watch the whole race here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can read this for thoughts from those there:
> 
> Brammeier on hidden motors: ?Something seemed a bit weird? at Koppenbergcross | CyclingTips
> 
> I was originally right in this thread calling her an unknown. She was. She basically came out of nowhere and started dominating all of a sudden. She's an idiot, this much is for certain.


I don't think this clip and the comment from a boyfriend of a competitor really adds any objective evidence here. Don't get me wrong, I think she's probably guilty, but the clip just shows someone doing well. That does not equate to cheating. I assume that the UCI is doing their due diligence and we'll hear something soon. Meanwhile, I bet sales of these motors is surging


----------



## MMsRepBike

DaveG said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think she's probably guilty, but the clip just shows someone doing well. That does not equate to cheating.


I understand it's hard for you to tell watching the video and all but that's the Koppenberg. You know... the legendary climb? It's legendary for a reason. See who's behind her? She who she's just dominating while seated? One person that wasn't there was Vos, but she said this:



> “I don’t know Femke van den Driessche. Now more rumours are surfacing that there may have been some red flags in previous races and there are some suspicions about her and the people in her entourage, but I wasn’t aware of any of that,” said Vos. “Had I been riding the Koppenberg with her and she’d sprinted away from me, I would have been suspicious, too.”


And rightfully so. Like noted above the Koppenberg is no joke and what she did there certainly was not just "doing well." She literally destroyed the world's best on that climb. And as noted she consistently lost over 10 seconds on the flats and downs but gained it back and more on the climbs.

And how do you explain the entourage there?


----------



## tlg

MMsRepBike said:


> And rightfully so. Like noted above the Koppenberg is no joke and what she did there certainly was not just "doing well." She literally destroyed the world's best on that climb. And as noted she consistently lost over 10 seconds on the flats and downs but gained it back and more on the climbs.


Quite amazing how someone with not much of a racing pedigree destroys the rest of the field on the climbs. All you gotta do is look at her body motion. Smooth and seated the whole time. While everyone else is rocking and struggling.

Might be different if she were a top rider winning races all the time. She's routinely barely a top 10 finisher. 
https://cyclingdatabase.com/rider/femke-van-den-driessche/17483

Compared to the top 3 from Worlds. She's not in their league.
https://cyclingdatabase.com/rider/sanne-cant/13433
https://cyclingdatabase.com/rider/ellen-van-loy/13253
https://cyclingdatabase.com/rider/eva-lechner/48490


----------



## Migen21

I thought she was the Belgium national champion in her age group, and was favored to win the U23 WC ?


----------



## DaveG

MMsRepBike said:


> I understand it's hard for you to tell watching the video and all but that's the Koppenberg. You know... the legendary climb? It's legendary for a reason. See who's behind her? She who she's just dominating while seated? One person that wasn't there was Vos, but she said this:
> 
> 
> 
> And rightfully so. Like noted above the Koppenberg is no joke and what she did there certainly was not just "doing well." She literally destroyed the world's best on that climb. And as noted she consistently lost over 10 seconds on the flats and downs but gained it back and more on the climbs.
> 
> And how do you explain the entourage there?


Maybe it was just regular old-school doping. There is nothing is that video that offers any proof or even evidence of motor doping. Its just pure suspicion and conjecture. If folks at the race thought that she had a motor could they have protested. I feel bad defending her, because I think her story at the Worlds has zero credibility, but the video is no more convincing than the Cancellera video or or a grainy Sasquatch video. If it does turn out that her results were purely based upon a hidden motor, that makes me want one even more


----------



## Local Hero

That was a cool race to watch. Motogirl started off strong. Her lead was up to about 10 seconds by my count. After the pits is began to shrink. She fell and got caught on the second lap dropping back a few, only to fight back a few spots. Then some back and forth. Ultimately she finished in second place, 47s behind the leader.


----------



## Handbrake

I like that UCI rules specify this as 'technological fraud' rather than doping, as I think it is useful to keep the two distinct.


----------



## BlazingPedals

Consider this scenario:
The mechanical she had was deliberate. The intent was to swap to her spare. Except that her spare became unavailable. The fact that a friend came forward still doesn't explain where her spare bike went.


----------



## Local Hero

BlazingPedals said:


> Consider this scenario:
> The mechanical she had was deliberate. The intent was to swap to her spare. Except that her spare became unavailable. The fact that a friend came forward still doesn't explain where her spare bike went.


Vanishing twin bike.


----------



## Migen21

BlazingPedals said:


> Consider this scenario:
> The mechanical she had was deliberate. The intent was to swap to her spare. Except that her spare became unavailable. The fact that a friend came forward still doesn't explain where her spare bike went.


Why would she deliberately break her bike? She can swap any time for any reason. If she just wanted to ride a few laps on her first bike, then swap to the altered one, she could do that without stomping on her derailleur (or whatever).


----------



## duriel

She is a witch!


----------



## atpjunkie

the big story is both elite titles were won on bikes that were discontinued years ago. Both champs were riding canti bikes from around 2012 because their sponsors only do discs now


----------



## MMsRepBike

atpjunkie said:


> the big story is both elite titles were won on bikes that were discontinued years ago. Both champs were riding canti bikes from around 2012 because their sponsors only do discs now


ssssshhhh.


----------



## DaveG

Migen21 said:


> Why would she deliberately break her bike? She can swap any time for any reason. If she just wanted to ride a few laps on her first bike, then swap to the altered one, she could do that without stomping on her derailleur (or whatever).


Agree. That would just cause her to lose time. Better to switch bikes at a designated point before the last lap. That way the crew can have the battery all charged up!

Has the UCI announced any timetable for a ruling on this?


----------



## JohnStonebarger

atpjunkie said:


> the big story is both elite titles were won on bikes that were discontinued years ago. Both champs were riding canti bikes from around 2012 because their sponsors only do discs now


The big story that no press will feature, that is.

Always fun to watch the sales departments run the show.


----------



## deviousalex

MMsRepBike said:


> it's on the first page of this thread. The video posted is the exact moment when she was most likely using it on camera. The race is Koppenbergcross, you can watch the whole race here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can read this for thoughts from those there:
> 
> Brammeier on hidden motors: ?Something seemed a bit weird? at Koppenbergcross | CyclingTips
> 
> I was originally right in this thread calling her an unknown. She was. She basically came out of nowhere and started dominating all of a sudden. She's an idiot, this much is for certain.


Watching the bit where she has a motor shows that she could have quite plausibly used one here. When everyone else is standing on the Koppenberg she is sitting there cool as a clam. After the turn off the Koppernberg the riders who failed to hold her wheel are still standing (while she is sitting) and their pace slows down noticeably for a second where her is steady. Very suspicious indeed.


----------



## atpjunkie

JohnStonebarger said:


> The big story that no press will feature, that is.
> 
> Always fun to watch the sales departments run the show.


but, but, but on those steep technical descents.....


----------



## MMsRepBike




----------



## deviousalex

MMsRepBike said:


>


The video shows some interesting things. I.e. limits to the RPM you can turn, where the button is, etc. Although I'm sure Dan could have beat his old time if he wanted to. Even in his 'untrained' state I imagine he hasn't lost 200 watts, even if he's gained a few kilos.

I also think the more we learn about this the more we can discredit people who claim Cancellara used a motor. They are claiming he hid the switch in the shifter, which I just don't see possible given tech at the time and that the Shimano shifters were full so you can't just add a hole to it.


----------



## MMsRepBike

deviousalex said:


> The video shows some interesting things. I.e. limits to the RPM you can turn, where the button is, etc. Although I'm sure Dan could have beat his old time if he wanted to. Even in his 'untrained' state I imagine he hasn't lost 200 watts, even if he's gained a few kilos.
> 
> I also think the more we learn about this the more we can discredit people who claim Cancellara used a motor. They are claiming he hid the switch in the shifter, which I just don't see possible given tech at the time and that the Shimano shifters were full so you can't just add a hole to it.


I don't agree. A switch is just a button. You can place a small button anywhere. It just requires small wires, you can even put one under a hood and not know any different. Also the bike they were riding had a specific motor that limited rpm's that low, they say there's other ones that let you run a proper high cadence of 100.

There's really no denying that the Spartan looked exactly like one does when riding a bike with a hidden motor. That's pretty much all there is to it, other than the dumping of the bike thing. During that time the technology existed to do what he was accused of doing, that's not really up for debate. Only debate is did he actually do it, and unless there's a confession somewhere nobody will ever know if he did. So end of story really. Judging by his most recent interview about it, he's not going to say a word. So that's the end of that.


----------



## deviousalex

MMsRepBike said:


> There's really no denying that the Spartan looked exactly like one does when riding a bike with a hidden motor.


How do you know what one riding a bike with a hidden motor looks like? There's no real precedent for that. The video also noted that the motor is quite loud. I imagine Boonen would have heard it right next to Cancellara on the Muur. Hell Boonen admitted he cramped and cracked.


----------



## TricrossRich

The UCI is seeking a lifetime ban

UCI may seek lifetime suspension in motor cheating case - VeloNews.com


"According to the _Nieuwsblad_ report, Van den Driessche and her family say they are ready and willing to accept responsibility for the bike’s presence at the race, but that a lifetime ban was too steep a price. “We want a fair chance, not a show trial,” said her lawyer Kristof De Saedeleer according to the report."


----------



## ziscwg

TricrossRich said:


> The UCI is seeking a lifetime ban
> 
> UCI may seek lifetime suspension in motor cheating case - VeloNews.com
> 
> 
> "According to the _Nieuwsblad_ report, Van den Driessche and her family say they are ready and willing to accept responsibility for the bike’s presence at the race, but that a lifetime ban was too steep a price. “We want a fair chance, not a show trial,” said her lawyer Kristof De Saedeleer according to the report."


Her and Lance can hang out.


----------



## Local Hero

No motors at Tirreno-Adriatico (at least not on road bikes).


----------



## T K

ziscwg said:


> Her and Lance can hang out.


Yep. Lance is always looking for a new uterus and fall guy.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Femke Van den Driessche drops defence in mechanical doping case | road.cc

Van den Driessche quits cyclocross, abandons defence against mechanical doping allegations | CyclingTips

It's a wrap. She's done. Lifetime ban probably because why not.


----------



## Marc

MMsRepBike said:


> Femke Van den Driessche drops defence in mechanical doping case | road.cc
> 
> Van den Driessche quits cyclocross, abandons defence against mechanical doping allegations | CyclingTips
> 
> It's a wrap. She's done. Lifetime ban probably because why not.


Not surprised. Fighting something like that for a young college-age gal just ain't worth it. And being female, even if she could get back into the sport there's basically no money in it for women's professional cycling riders. The fans view of the professional sport has gotten quite jaded and cynical (and rather rightly). There's always a chance it was like she says...Slim though that seems.


----------



## Jwiffle

My question regards the uci's pushing for a lifetime ban and 50,000 fine. How would they extract the fine if they never let her race again? If they gave me the ban, I wouldn't pay. I'd only pay if that's would get me back into racing after my ban was over. (I may be wrong, but since this process is through the uci, I'm assuming they don't have judicial and legal means to enforce the fine other than to refuse her a racing license. Which they wouldn't give her, anyway, if they gave her a life ban.)


----------



## nate

Marc said:


> Not surprised. Fighting something like that for a young college-age gal just ain't worth it. And being female, even if she could get back into the sport there's basically no money in it for women's professional cycling riders. The fans view of the professional sport has gotten quite jaded and cynical (and rather rightly). There's always a chance it was like she says...Slim though that seems.


No, the chance isn't even slim. I think this shows the difference between doping and technological fraud. Even though it's probably equally likely in doping cases that the person is guilty, it's much easier to come up with a defense that at least sounds plausible even if it's false. In a case where you're riding a bicycle with a motor, there is virtually no defense that actually sounds plausible.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Van den Driessche handed six-year ban for mechanical doping | Cyclingnews.com

Mechanical doping: Six-year ban for Femke Van den Driessche | road.cc

Six years... meh.


----------



## TricrossRich

I think they botched this... as is par for the course with UCI. IMO, lifetime ban should have been instituted here, just for the simple fact that it draws a line in the sand and sets the precedent. In regards to physiological or drug doping, the UCI's hands are tied because they have to abide by the WADA guidelines that govern all sport, but in this instance, the UCI could have set whatever precedent they wanted. A lifetime bans immediately says, if you do this and get caught, you're done... 

I also don't understand the back-dating of the suspension... it seems completely arbitrary to me and done simply to take away the european and national championship titles she won, which seems silly to me, especially if there's no proof that she used the motor in those events. Don't get me wrong, I think she probably did, but without proof, it seems wrong to simply declare those results invalid.


----------



## MMsRepBike

TricrossRich said:


> In regards to physiological or drug doping, the UCI's hands are tied because they have to abide by the WADA guidelines that govern all sport, but in this instance, the UCI could have set whatever precedent they wanted. A lifetime bans immediately says, if you do this and get caught, you're done...


This is not true, they do not have to abide by WADA at all, it's simply a choice to participate with WADA. Don't forget, WADA is a corrupt organization just like the UCI is. The UCI are not and never have been the good guys. Referring to WADA as the good guys is also a joke, just like calling FIFA or the NFL good guys, lol.

The UCI can do whatever they want. The UFC recently announced a partnership with USADA, a private corporation just like WADA. They did this voluntarily, they didn't have to do it. They could have chosen WADA as the UFC is an international sports promotion so it would make perfect sense, but instead they chose the American company to police it's international fighters. 

There is no real governing body, there are no good guys, there is nobody that can be trusted.


----------



## deviousalex

TricrossRich said:


> I also don't understand the back-dating of the suspension... it seems completely arbitrary to me and done simply to take away the european and national championship titles she won, which seems silly to me, especially if there's no proof that she used the motor in those events. Don't get me wrong, I think she probably did, but without proof, it seems wrong to simply declare those results invalid.


Maybe she admitted to using a motor behind closed doors in exchange for a 6 year sentence instead of a lifetime ban.


----------



## TricrossRich

MMsRepBike said:


> This is not true, they do not have to abide by WADA at all, it's simply a choice to participate with WADA. Don't forget, WADA is a corrupt organization just like the UCI is. The UCI are not and never have been the good guys. Referring to WADA as the good guys is also a joke, just like calling FIFA or the NFL good guys, lol.
> 
> The UCI can do whatever they want. The UFC recently announced a partnership with USADA, a private corporation just like WADA. They did this voluntarily, they didn't have to do it. They could have chosen WADA as the UFC is an international sports promotion so it would make perfect sense, but instead they chose the American company to police it's international fighters.
> 
> There is no real governing body, there are no good guys, there is nobody that can be trusted.


Maybe I wasn't clear... I don't think UCI is the good guys.I didn't refer to them or WADA as such. They have a storied history of bungling investigations and poor oversight of the regulations of the sport. My hope was that this ruling would be a step in the right direction and might be able to begin to restore confidence that they truly do have the best interests of the sport in mind. I was under the impression that they had to abide by WADA rules in terms of drug doping, but maybe that's not right... clearly though, they seem to simply fall back on the stance that they'll do what WADA recommends so you can see why it might be confusing whether they are required to or not... either way, I was hoping they'd take a step forward and take a stance, but I guess not.




deviousalex said:


> Maybe she admitted to using a motor behind closed doors in exchange for a 6 year sentence instead of a lifetime ban.


Perhaps.... as I said, I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that she did use it in those events, in fact, I think she probably did or at others. My guess is, those smaller events were test runs to see if she could slide it by at Worlds and there seems to be some evidence that other riders suspect she used it in other races.... but perhaps you're right, that she admitted to it behind closed doors and that's why the suspension is a little more lenient.

There's also a piece of me that thinks that the UCI is aware of others using motors and have turned a blind eye to it in the past.... they certainly have a history of ignoring cheating because it benefits their purses to ignore it and preserve the "purity". Scandal hurts them and the sport, so its better to ignore and keep making money. I wonder if they're aware that certain stars have indeed used motors in the past and are now worried that this information may come out because of the increased focus on mechanical doping and they didn't want to institute a lifetime ban because they didn't want to set the precedent and have to give a lifetime ban to a star like Cancellara, Contador, Nibali, Froome etc...


----------



## DaveG

deviousalex said:


> Maybe she admitted to using a motor behind closed doors in exchange for a 6 year sentence instead of a lifetime ban.


Maybe, but for her 6 years is pretty much equivalent to a lifetime ban. I dont see her coming back. Also, I dont see what the UCI would gain by having her admit that. It would just show that they dont have control of the situation. 

I am probably a softie here but this is a 19 year old girl. We all did stupid things when we were 19. I wonder if she was talked into this by someone who she trusted and paid the price. That is 100% speculation though. Either way the UCI had give out a serious penalty, which it did.


----------



## JohnStonebarger

MMsRepBike said:


> Van den Driessche handed six-year ban for mechanical doping | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Mechanical doping: Six-year ban for Femke Van den Driessche | road.cc
> 
> Six years... meh.


Six years + a hefty fine + paying back prize money + procedural fees TBD. She won't be back.


----------



## BikeLayne

Six year ban is tough for sure. That makes mechanical doping 3x worse then using steroids I suppose. However in six years even if she does not compete at a high level she could race for fun, exercise and such like many regular people do. She could also compete in other types of competitions. As Armstrong found out a lifetime ban even keeps you from riding in Fondos.

Does the team or teams get a walk for cheating or is there more to come?


----------



## mpre53

BikeLayne said:


> Six year ban is tough for sure. That makes mechanical doping 3x worse then using steroids I suppose. However in six years even if she does not compete at a high level she could race for fun, exercise and such like many regular people do. She could also compete in other types of competitions. As Armstrong found out a lifetime ban even keeps you from riding in Fondos.
> 
> Does the team or teams get a walk for cheating or is there more to come?


They claim that the motor she used weighs about 2 kg. No way that the mechanics didn't know. You wouldn't notice that your bike was 4 lbs heavier?


----------



## BikeLayne

mpre53 said:


> They claim that the motor she used weighs about 2 kg. No way that the mechanics didn't know. You wouldn't notice that your bike was 4 lbs heavier?



I figure that the motorized bikes they ride are set up for them by the team mechanic. I figure this is a team and rider cooperation and that since they stripped titles going back in time then there may even be another team or teams involved in the cheating. But who knows maybe there is still more to come or maybe they just want to whack the girl and give the team or teams a free one.


----------



## duriel

Well, who calles the shots on the team. Does the director decide, you aren't going to cut it and charge that thing up or is it the rider that is whining that the hills are too tough? How would the team director not know?


----------



## deviousalex

BikeLayne said:


> As Armstrong found out a lifetime ban even keeps you from riding in Fondos.


In Fondos that took the USAC insurance.


----------



## MMsRepBike

I'm not hearing anything but crickets about any others being penalized.

I'm seeing articles of people calling for it:

Nikki Harris reacts to Van den Driessche?s suspension, says it is vital others are also held to account | CyclingTips

But I'm hearing crickets.

The UCI can punish others involved or possibly involved. The verdict though did not mention anyone else at all.


----------



## deviousalex

MMsRepBike said:


> The UCI can punish others involved or possibly involved. The verdict though did not mention anyone else at all.


Her entourage doesn't hold UCI licenses, so they can't monetarily fine them. They can ban them from working with athletes in the future but that seems like a moot point at the moment. Fining the whole Belgian cycling federation may be a bridge to far, unless they can prove they were involved. From my understanding of the Euro CX scene (parents being the cook, mechanic, massage therapist, etc) it seems upfront at least that they acted alone.


----------



## BCSaltchucker

mpre53 said:


> They claim that the motor she used weighs about 2 kg. No way that the mechanics didn't know. You wouldn't notice that your bike was 4 lbs heavier?


hard to say. I don't see any evidence she actually ever rode this ebike in competition or even in training. But for sure, having it in her pit is very damning. And yes, if she or anyone else got on the bike she would know immediately it was a weird heavy bike.

I am fine with this punishment as long as it is the same as for any other kind of drug doping *or the same punishment as Nibali got* for hanging onto the car last year!! He should have got multi year ban for that - proven mechanical doping right there!


----------



## deviousalex

BCSaltchucker said:


> hard to say. I don't see any evidence she actually ever rode this ebike in competition or even in training.


Have you seen the KoppenbergCross video?



> I am fine with this punishment as long as it is the same as for any other kind of drug doping *or the same punishment as Nibali got* for hanging onto the car last year!! He should have got multi year ban for that - proven mechanical doping right there!


That doesn't fall under "technological fraud" in the same way this does.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

deviousalex said:


> Maybe she admitted to using a motor behind closed doors in exchange for a 6 year sentence instead of a lifetime ban.


UCI got legal opinions that a lifetime ban would likely fail in a civil court.
She was not caught riding the bike. 
Think about how many criminal trials hinge on a subtle technicality.
Saying that it was in the pits and she might have used it would not convict her in most jurisdictions. Going fast as she did in the Koppenburg video is not enough either.


----------



## deviousalex

Cinelli 82220 said:


> UCI got legal opinions that a lifetime ban would likely fail in a civil court.


Competing in a league is a privilege, not a right. Is there any precedence for a court overturning a ban like this?


----------

