# 2008 madone 6.9 BB lateral movement?



## chadjodi (Nov 27, 2006)

I have about 6000 miles on my madone. I noticed a lateral play in the crank at about 3000 miles. Tightening the DA cranks solved the problem for 200 miles then I had to repeat each time improvement was gained. at 5000 miles I changed the bearings thinking this was tthe problem. No dice. I am beginning to wonder if the net molding bb is loosing its shape and will not hold the bearing firm. 
Has anyone heard of this type of problem yet?


----------



## QUiTSPiNiNArOuND (Mar 15, 2002)

Maybe you should take it to the shop. I have never heard of this problem, but it't not out of the question. It could simply be that the pinch bolt isn't tightened to spec.


----------



## epicxt (Apr 26, 2005)

QUiTSPiNiNArOuND said:


> Maybe you should take it to the shop. I have never heard of this problem, but it't not out of the question. It *could simply be that the pinch bolt isn't tightened to spec*.


This would be my guess as well. I can't visualize any other way for *lateral* play to develop. Keep us 6.x owners informed of what you find!:thumbsup:


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

Chadjodi, couple of things to be careful about: While it easily could be something wrong with the precision sockets, there are some things to consider:

1) Are you using the Enduro bearings with the blue seals? Info came back from Trekworld that a number of problems were being reported with the blue sealed Enduros. (Not the lower headset bearing just the BB ones.)

2) DId you merely tighten the cranks, or did you completely disassemble, clean, regrease, and assemble? The reason I ask is the Shimano one piece crank/spindle is particularly sensitive to being absolutely clean and assembled properly. (a tooth brush and a good chain solvent will get the splines on the spindle and the crank clean, but those splines are so small and precise that even a tiny piece of grime is going to cause an imprecise fit.) 
Coupled with the fact that there is very little force on the crankarm cap, holding the NDS crank on the spindle (mainly finger tight) so it has to fit exactly and precisely or IT WILL work itself loose in time (even too much grease in there could be a problem). 
Next the lock plates must be seated properly, and the area must be clean. It is best to back out the crankarm fixing bolts and do a visual check.
Finally the crank bolts must be brought to torque EVENLY by tightening one a little, then a little on the other, and keep going back and forth until they are both at the proper torque setting, which is listed on your crank arms. I cannot emphasize how important this is. If after reassembly, you still detect a slight movement by grabbing the frame and crank arm and rocking it, then the recommended practice is to completely disassemble, clean, and retry.

While many cranks are held on the spindle by shear overwhelming force, not Shimanos. These are intended to be very precise.

3) When you disassemble the works again, don't forget to thoroughly clean the bearings and the sockets. Even a spec of dirt or grime in there could cause a problem, the fit is that tight and precise. DO NOT USE locktite to hold the bearings as you would with other net molded held bearings. It is not needed. All you need is a very light coating of good grease in the sockets before placing the bearings back in place. Make sure they are fully seated, especially the NDS bearing which is so tight it will snap into place.

Just an FYI, my NDS bearing was toast after about 6k miles (the DS was fine and kept as a spare). I was probably on it for close to 1k before it became audible and noticeable. I am now probably 4-5k on the second bearing, and so far it is in good shape. These are the black sealed Enduro steel bearings. Don't know what the initial problem was, but so far it hasn't repeated. Realistically it could have been winter miles on salted roads that contributed to it's demise, but I would have expected the DS bearing to suffer that same fate. Just throwing that out there.

HTH
zac


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

epicxt said:


> This would be my guess as well. I can't visualize any other way for *lateral* play to develop. Keep us 6.x owners informed of what you find!:thumbsup:


Epic, yeah that is one way, but a failing bearing will also cause lateral play. After removing the bearings: test them by pushing and pulling the inner and outer races laterally against each other. Any play whatsoever, is going to manifest itself as play in the cranks. 

The good thing is, the bearings are cheap and very easy to replace. 
The bad thing is, the stock bearings have been on BO from Trek for almost 2 months now!!!


----------



## epicxt (Apr 26, 2005)

*Yeah,*

I didn't think that post through very well. Thanks for all the in-depth info on your bearing history. I've had no problems with mine, but I tend to baby my bike since I've got a wet-weather bike already (and I get plenty of use out of it up here in Seattle!) 

My madone has only been ridden twice in wet weather, and after the second time I tore the bb down and cleaned/regreased everything. Didn't really need it, but I wanted to get hands-on with my machine. 

Hope your new frame is treating you well!

-epic


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

epicxt said:


> I didn't think that post through very well. Thanks for all the in-depth info on your bearing history. I've had no problems with mine, but I tend to baby my bike since I've got a wet-weather bike already (and I get plenty of use out of it up here in Seattle!)
> 
> My madone has only been ridden twice in wet weather, and after the second time I tore the bb down and cleaned/regreased everything. Didn't really need it, but I wanted to get hands-on with my machine.
> 
> ...


The new frame is good thanks, jury still out on the RDH. The clearance/fit for the rear wheel is really tight and the skewer often gets caught up on the derailleur, nothing a good swift palm on the wheel doesn't solve though.

I use a wet/bad weather bike too, but you know how new toys are. I got mine in early January and couldn't wait. 

I expect a season on a set of bearings, so I was a bit surprised by the failure. But what is bumming me out right now is that the steel bearings are on Back Order at Trek. I don't want to get 3rd party ceramics, so I am hoping Trek gets things back on track. I have 2 sets on order since August I think! Enduro doesn't seem to sell the steel bearings (for the new Madones) directly, only the ceramics. 

Thread Hijack:
I haven't researched it much, do any of you Madone owners have a 3rd party source for steel bearings for the 2008+ Madones for Dura Ace 7800 cranks?


----------



## epicxt (Apr 26, 2005)

*Hmmm...*

I'll have to check with my brother and see what he can get re: bearings. That's crazy that they are so backed up on their bearing supply. I'm not sold on ceramics either, so I would have a hard time justifying the cost/benefit ratio.


----------



## parker3375 (May 6, 2008)

I'll check my apartment when I get off work. Mine were removed when I built it...I'm a campy kinda guy. If I still got them I'll hit you up. I will have no need for them.


----------



## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

*3rd party bearings*



zac said:


> The new frame is good thanks, jury still out on the RDH. The clearance/fit for the rear wheel is really tight and the skewer often gets caught up on the derailleur, nothing a good swift palm on the wheel doesn't solve though.
> 
> I use a wet/bad weather bike too, but you know how new toys are. I got mine in early January and couldn't wait.
> 
> ...


So I was a mechanic for 20 years (no, not a bike mechanic but a Marine Diesel mechanic) and I never heard of a company actually making their own bearings. This is not to say that they didn't, but I would look and see if the bearing has some numbers on it and or take one down to an industrial bearing supply house and they can measure it and see if they have one under a different name. I guess "under a different name" would qualify as 3rd party, but again, I am betting that Trek possibility (and in fact all bike manufacturers) just found an existing bearing made by a bearing manufacturing company like SKF, NTN, or Timkin and used it. An industrial bearing supply house should be able to help. Remember, if you buy enough of something, a company will put your name on it but it would still measure out the same. Also you can get bearings in different qualities and/or tolerances. So I'm saying look outside the biking community.


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

martinrjensen said:


> So I was a mechanic for 20 years (no, not a bike mechanic but a Marine Diesel mechanic) and I never heard of a company actually making their own bearings. This is not to say that they didn't, but I would look and see if the bearing has some numbers on it and or take one down to an industrial bearing supply house and they can measure it and see if they have one under a different name. I guess "under a different name" would qualify as 3rd party, but again, I am betting that Trek possibility (and in fact all bike manufacturers) just found an existing bearing made by a bearing manufacturing company like SKF, NTN, or Timkin and used it. An industrial bearing supply house should be able to help. Remember, if you buy enough of something, a company will put your name on it but it would still measure out the same. Also you can get bearings in different qualities and/or tolerances. So I'm saying look outside the biking community.


martin, thanks, I am aware of that. There is a bearing wholesaler in Manchester NH that most likely has what I need. It's just that Trek has equal access to all and more of the same sources as do I, and they should be supplying the bearings. Plus it is cheaper to go through Trek. (The last set of spares was $11 for the set - just checked)

As for my setup, Trek is not OEM for the bearings, Enduro is. http://www.enduroforkseals.com/ Indeed, I think Enduro also produces the bearings for Shimano in their BBs. With that in mind, I can get ceramics from them, but I want steel, and their website doesn't list them. I am not in need for the bearings now, I just like to keep a spare set on stock, as I do with most parts. So I am willing to wait...but the wait is getting too long, especially if this was down time due to bearing failure.


----------

