# Interesting new hubs from Boyd



## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

NAHBS 2015: New Boyd Cycling hubs take stiffness, smoothness to Eternity and beyond!

The bearing placement is very interesting.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Yeah, it's been tough keeping a lid on those. I'm really excited to see them up close and to build some up.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ergott said:


> Yeah, it's been tough keeping a lid on those. I'm really excited to see them up close and to build some up.


That freewheel bearing doohickey sounds cool.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> That freewheel bearing doohickey sounds cool.


Stop showing off using technical jargon, would ya?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

robt57 said:


> Stop showing off using technical jargon, would ya?


Ahhh yesss. When ya got it, ya either use it or lose it.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> That freewheel bearing doohickey sounds cool.


Yea I thought that was pretty cool too. Given that the pawls are now located farther from the center they'll be transmitting less torque. Plus they look pretty wide. They should have good longevity.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I like how when pedalling only the two main wheel bearings are turning. This design is a unique way to accomplish that. I also like the adjustable preload and the Ti freehub.

I am a little concerned that the forces through the hub to the DS bearing go through the freehub bearings and the freehub. I'm sure it's all been engineered and modeled and tested, it's just different. Am I correct that when coasting, the DS wheel bearing is not turning but the freehub bearings are? Do the freehub bearings need to be larger than in the standard all on an axle design since there's more force through them?


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

I liked them, until I saw the price. I'll stick with WI for 2/3 the cost and also made in the usa.


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## Bridgestone (Sep 6, 2007)

I would buy this;


“If a wheel builder wants to do “triplet” lacing (8 on non-drive, 16 on drive side), we could make a new shell with an even wider flange spacing that’s optimized for that lacing pattern, but I’d caution that with just eight spokes on the outside, if one broke for some reason, it could ruin the ride home.”


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Glad to see Boyd pushing the envelope. I have a future build coming up, they are definitely an option.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Have three questions:

*First*: if CoachBoyd is reading, do you have a program at the Greenville facility where'd you have a a few sets of these built-up so that people could come in, take their cassettes off their wheels, and give the hubs along with Boyd rims a day trial ride, say up Paris or Ceaser's Head? Every year I get lucky in that I get to spend 3-4 weeks in Greenville, and I sure would like to trial these hubs before dropping the..._gulp_..$600 on them.

*Second*: I looked at the pics on BoydCycling website, why do the hub's finish look so blase'? I guess, what I mean is, for $600, I'd expect the hubs to explode off the page and grab your attention finish-wise. I'm not knocking the hubs, all I am trying to ask is that similar hubs for this price, if you look at them finish-wise side-by-side with these new hubs, well it becomes obvious. And please no one lecture us about the functioning vs asthetic of hubs, and how finish doesn't matter, etc., etc. I'm just asking an honest question here, because whether we all want to admit it or not, nearly all cyclists like both "looks" along with the proposed new, enhanced functioning/durability.

*Third*: this leads to the third question, are these hubs an argument for enhanced functioning or is it more for enhanced durability? I mean, because of the design, do they spin better than other high end hubs, under either no load and/or load? Or is it more for durability purposes, especially considering putting the freehub bearings where they are (which is kind of awesome theoretically). But, that said, we know from experience that lots of manufacturers have had problems with their cantilevered hub shell extensions, as it is a focal point of major stress at that joint.


Overall, good stuff, CoachBoyd, way to keep pushing. If you, and/or anyone can answer the above questions (especially Number 1), would be appreciated ;-)


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

BelgianHammer said:


> *Second*: I looked at the pics on BoydCycling website, why do the hub's finish look so blase'?


 "_The complete hubs shown above are preproduction with an temporary alloy freehub body, but weights are with a titanium one_."


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

I like the notched pawl design on the rear hub. What a great way to have 4 pawls engage at the same time while still using a clocked engagement design.

I can see that with the hubs sitting on two widely spaced bearings the load will be distributed more evenly and therefore reduces flex in the hub. This should lead to bearings that are aligned better at all times, which could lead to smoother rolling under load and less wear to the bearings and hub shell.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

BelgianHammer said:


> Have three questions:
> 
> *First*: if CoachBoyd is reading, do you have a program at the Greenville facility where'd you have a a few sets of these built-up so that people could come in, take their cassettes off their wheels, and give the hubs along with Boyd rims a day trial ride, say up Paris or Ceaser's Head? Every year I get lucky in that I get to spend 3-4 weeks in Greenville, and I sure would like to trial these hubs before dropping the..._gulp_..$600 on them.
> 
> ...


OK, back in Greenville from the trip. Overslept at the hotel this morning and got a late start.

First. Yes, you can definitely come in and test out any product that we have. We are fortunate enough to be on the Swamp Rabbit Trail so you can take that right up to Paris Mountain. We have a bunch of sets of the new hubs here at the shop, but they are all pre-production. That means tolerances are different for some of the different hubs (within a thousandths or two). By doing this we were able to figure out what bearings needed to have what tolerance on them to work best. The Ti freehubs are done,but not ready to be mounted on the hubs we have in house. There's a couple small things that have to be done to be 100% functional for production, which is why we are telling people end of the month vs. now.

Second. We were hoping to use a Cerakote finish on the hubs, and the ones at the show were Cerakote finished. It looks really cool, and I wish we could have used it, but after testing we found it would scratch too easy and the cost for coating was too high. We are going through the Ano process right now for production hubs. First release will be black only, then colors will be added.

Third. The main purpose of the new design was for better performance. The wider base for the bearings puts less stress on them as you move supports further out. Think of supporting a table, you put the legs at the ends of the table, not in the middle. Whenever bearings go bad, it's usually the ones in the center of the hub (right side of the hub shell and left side of the freehub body) as the axle has the greatest fulcrum effect inside the bearings there. By stabilizing the bearings, stiffness and bearing life are increased. The added benefit of this was creating the system where only two of the bearings are spinning when you are pedaling.

The aesthetic look to the hub was driven by the performance factors. With the rear hub it's pretty noticeable that the drive side flange goes straight up. This is because the center part of the hub shell has to support the freehub body axle. The axle is supported under the entire hub shell for the freehub body. 
In this picture from James Huang at Bike Radar, you can see the two steps of threading the freehub body axle into the shell. It has a telescoping end to hold it in place throughout the entire center part of the hub (to ensure that there's maximum strength and not a situation where an extension of the hub shell could break off).









The left side of the hub shell is extended out as far as possible to support both the bearing and shield the pre-load. This ensures maximum protection from any elements and contamination of the bearings.


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## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

Thanks Coachboyd for the thorough reply/answers!

I'd like to ask if the disc version will be centerlock? I may be in the minority, but I have become a centerlock fan recently. I've been eyeing the new WI CLD hubs (yeah, they are sharp and blingy looking as well), as one of the only other CL options to DT... 

Thanks,
S


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

For $600 a set, you are putting your product in the DT 240 and Chris King market. Both of which have spent a lot of time building their credibility. You are entering their market point with new designs and zero real world abuse/use. No matter how much you do R&D, end users will find new ways to break your product. Ask Spinergy. I agree the finish has a long way to come. Hope the new freehub pawl design works out for you. With the premier makers upping the contact points to decrease contact angle, your four pawls seems like you are bending numbers and logic to something that is a pretty straight forward way of counting contact points.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, CoachBoyd. Will be seeing you guys in June and July, so don't loan all the darn wheels out before I get there ;-)


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

The disc and mtb hubs will definitely be center lock. That is one thing we definitely wanted to have. Being able to use the hubs on all 836 thru axle "standards" is what we are working on a lot with the design. 

As far as the price goes, I know we are putting ourselves up there with some of the other respected hub companies. However, there are a lot of cool design and performance features that do set us apart. There are a lot of really good choices out there in terms of high end hubs. It's an exciting time for a consumer, but I really do believe we have something special here even if it takes a bit of time to really get off the ground. The reception from exhibitors, media, and even our competitors at the NAHBS show was really cool to see.

I promise to have lots of wheels around in June and July. . . maybe even some new stuff! But when you do come down, you'll have to come to our new building that we are moving into. Still right on the trail, but 3 times the size of our current location.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

coachboyd, are there any measurements or anecdotes about lower friction due to less bearings turning? Does this hub spin longer than say a 4-bearing Taiwan hub?


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> coachboyd, are there any measurements or anecdotes about lower friction due to less bearings turning? Does this hub spin longer than say a 4-bearing Taiwan hub?


We have been trying to determine a way to figure out how to measure the lower friction in terms of watts, but have not been able yet to come up with an actual number so I am not going to make a claim until it's something we can prove. I will say that we did reduce bearing drag by 50% when pedaling.

Spinning the wheel in your hand, the rear wheel spins just like a front wheel, because there are only two bearings spinning and they are spaced out just like a front wheel has. I don't think the "coast down" test where you show how long various wheels spin with no load on them is a valid test as whenever we are riding we hopefully don't have our wheels in the air. We want to focus on how the wheel spins with load on it, which is why taking the load bearings and spacing them as far out on the axle was so important to us.

I will confidently give this anecdote. If makers of ceramic bearings can claim that switching to a ceramic bearing saves 10-12 watts, then we should be able to claim you'll be saving 385 watts at all times with the new hubs.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

coachboyd said:


> We have been trying to determine a way to figure out how to measure the lower friction in terms of watts, but have not been able yet to come up with an actual number so I am not going to make a claim until it's something we can prove. ...


385 watts? I'll take a case, please.

Okay, suspect you already know about these guys, but just in case Friction Facts (the chain lube test folks) has a hub efficiency tester that may be of interest to you. They claim accuracy to +0.05 watts.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Ha! I asked for anecdotes as I really didn't think you would have a watts readout of power saved. I've often wondered how the ceramic bearing people measure their power saved. You're claiming a saving of 385 watts?  With those hubs I could give that Kwiatkowski kid a whuppin'!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Okay, suspect you already know about these guys, but just in case Friction Facts (the chain lube test folks) has a hub efficiency tester that may be of interest to you. They claim accuracy to +0.05 watts.


It seems like they already gave coachboyd an opinion -

Technical FAQ: How much drag can we eliminate by dropping two bearings? - VeloNews.com


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

coachboyd said:


> I will confidently give this anecdote. If makers of ceramic bearings can claim that switching to a ceramic bearing saves 10-12 watts, then we should be able to claim you'll be saving 385 watts at all times with the new hubs.


385 sounds about right. Once you've confirmed that, throw 'em in a wind tunnel and you'll be up to 500 before you know it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> It seems like they already gave coachboyd an opinion -
> 
> Technical FAQ: How much drag can we eliminate by dropping two bearings? - VeloNews.com


Sho 'nuff. 

Great find, Mr. T. :thumbsup:


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

I had emailed Jason at friction facts a while back and he mentioned to me that the hub tester was not up and running. It's good to see that he does have it now and I just shot him another email.

Hopefully we can go test and if all goes well we may find out the hub actually saves 395 watts!!! ha


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

coachboyd said:


> Hopefully we can go test and if all goes well we may find out the hub actually saves 395 watts!!! ha


If you're only 95% out, I'll buy up your production for the next ten years.  $1000 hubsets anyone?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

coachboyd said:


> Hopefully we can go test and if all goes well we may find out the hub actually saves 395 watts!!! ha


Does that mean if I put out only 300 watts, these hubs are self propelled @ 95 watts? :thumbsup:


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

tlg said:


> Does that mean if I put out only 300 watts, these hubs are self propelled @ 95 watts? :thumbsup:


You are not allowed to own them unless you can verify a threshold of 400w.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

_re: .............It seems like they already gave coachboyd an opinion -

Technical FAQ: How much drag can we eliminate by dropping two bearings? - VeloNews.com........................_


Gawd damn, can't Jason at FF just give an answer in plain friggin' English, and not spend 1000 words describing how big a schwarz Godzilla has? I mean for crissakes, coefficient flippin windturbo jammer this, and flux capacitator induced motion time travel that, and......and.............I am as much the geekhead as the next guy, but sometimes these evaluators of components need to hit the hammer's head on the nail and quit striking all of our collective thumbs while prevaricating about why they their poop in the toilet didn't follow the Coriolis Effect today.

So just tell us, Mr. Jason at Friction Facts: are we couch pros going to be, as Mike T says, showing them Vulcan-blooded pro youngsters our ample derrières as we discover our StarshipBoyd's Captain alien discovery of our newly found 385 watts?? (And all you Spock heads can just shut the he!! up)!!! 


I think Jason's girlfriend (or S.O.) must be one easy, easy going person:
Why? To wit:

Jason's S.O.: "_let's try new positions snuggling tonight..._."

Jason: "_well, you know the coefficeint of the curl is related to amplitude of sin wave frequnecy emanating from the temporal lobe, but that too is also affected by a non-spoon position tangentially hormonal exposition of transverse thoughts and_... ...and yada, yada, yada.....God GOD man, spoon with your woman in 5 words of less!!!!!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)




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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

A quick paraphrase from the link from FF (for readers that don't want to highlight the main points, about one per paragraph):

Bearing drag comes from seals, lube, and bearing/ race interaction. Bearing/ race interaction is affected by load and is the lowest contributor by a small amount, the other two are independently affected by bearing load. Less bearings spinning means less drag from seals and lube even if more load is focused on fewer bearings. So, two bearings spinning vs 4 bearings spinning would be pretty close to 1/2 the amount of bearing drag, the increased bearing load would be a wash.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to have to re-read the original information again.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

Jason's answer seems to have been without the visual aid of the diagram in the Velo article. When coasting, the hub would only spin three bearings as the cassette would be stopped and the outboard bearing would also be stopped. Am I missing something?


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I also think that the outboard DS bearing is not turning while coasting.

I think the original Shimano DA freehub hubs had only two bearings turning while pedalling- that's what the diagrams look like anyhow.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

jfaas said:


> Jason's answer seems to have been without the visual aid of the diagram in the Velo article. When coasting, the hub would only spin three bearings as the cassette would be stopped and the outboard bearing would also be stopped. Am I missing something?


On a traditional hub only two bearings are spinning when coasting. The freehub and axle are static so those two bearings don't spin when coasting. The hub shell bearings always spin when the hub is in motion.

On our hub there are three bearings spinning when coasting. Both of the bearings between the freehub and hub shell and the bearing between the hub shell and axle on the very left side of the hub. When coasting the very right load bearing that is on the outside of the freehub body does not spin as the axle and freehub are both static.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ericm979 said:


> I think the original Shimano DA freehub hubs had only two bearings turning while pedalling- that's what the diagrams look like anyhow.


I never gave it any thought before but I think my beloved DuraAce hubs (I have two sets in use and two more in stock) have just two sets of bearings turning - until I freewheel anyway. The Boyd appear to be the same operation as the DA. I could be wrong.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I think the 7800 DA hubs have all four bearings turning while pedalling. On 9000 it looks like the two outer hub bearings turn while pedalling and the two freehub bearings and one hub bearing turn while coasting. This is from the shimano techdoc diagrams.

On a traditional freewheel hub, only the two hub bearings are turning while pedaling and all four hub and freewheel bearings are turning while coasting.

Some Extralight hubs have the typical freehub full axle with hub and freehub bearings on it but only one ball bearing in the freehhub. The inner end of the freehub has a bushing between it and the hub body. When pedaling there's only three bearings turning. When coasting, the two hub bearings and the bushing turn but the bushing has little load on it then.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

coachboyd said:


> OK, back in Greenville from the trip.


Hey Boyd, good to see you are coming out with new designs!

I'm curious about how the rear hub is put together: 

There is an outer axle that screws into the hub body from the DS, and the freehub is supported on this, correct? That part mounts first, obviously. How is it tightened and loosened? 

I'm wondering about the load path for the DS side of the hubshell. It appears that loads are transferred to the freehub bearings via the outer axle, to the freehub shell, and finally to the inner axle via the main outer bearing. Is this correct?

Also, what are the bearing sizes?

Thanks!


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

rruff said:


> Hey Boyd, good to see you are coming out with new designs!


Thanks Ron, I wouldn't mind getting a set over to you and I'd love for these to be in the hub shootout.



rruff said:


> I'm curious about how the rear hub is put together:
> 
> There is an outer axle that screws into the hub body from the DS, and the freehub is supported on this, correct? That part mounts first, obviously. How is it tightened and loosened?


It will come from the factory screwed into place and lightly loctited down. There's no reason to ever remove this freehub body axle, although with an expanding compression plug against the inside walls it would be removable. The reason why it's an axle and not just an extension of the hub shell is to be able to support it through the entire center section of the hub.



rruff said:


> I'm wondering about the load path for the DS side of the hubshell. It appears that loads are transferred to the freehub bearings via the outer axle, to the freehub shell, and finally to the inner axle via the main outer bearing. Is this correct?


It's tough to see from that diagram, and we just shot and edited a video showing the breakdown of the hub. In this video the freehub body axle has not been loctited so I can take it out and show how it's installed. The rear hub break down starts at 2 minutes in








rruff said:


> Also, what are the bearing sizes?


Left hub shell - 6901
Both freehub body bearings - 6803
Right bearing that goes between main axle and freehub body (the red one in the color coded picture) - 6001



rruff said:


> Thanks!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

coachboyd said:


>


Very impressive!


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Well, after watching that Youtube video Mike T posted, I can already tell I am going to be several Ben Franklins lighter when I go to Greenville for the summer. 

It's hard, if you are a cycling enthusiast, not to support people like CoachBoyd, for they represent everything (at least to me they do) about what is right about cycling & the cycling industry. Being a metals guy, one thing to take away from that video is something that Boyd alludes to in the end: it has become more and more mainstream (with many things concerning titanium in many industrial applications): injection molding of the Ti metal. The big buggaboo of having Ti stuff has always been the waste issue. Glad to see small business like Boyd's embracing this new production method. The behemoth that is the US Military is starting to demand this of all suppliers of Ti parts--we use more Ti, substantially more, than anyone in the world.

These hubs ought to be a wild hit when I bring them back to Belgium and give a talk or two in the pub after the major group rides. These guys here live & breathe for this kind of stuff.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

BelgianHammer said:


> These hubs ought to be a wild hit when I bring them back to Belgium and give a talk or two in the pub after the major group rides. These guys here live & breathe for this kind of stuff.


Aren't they all still using Campagnolo 5-spd screw-on freewheel hubs over there? I figured if you showed up with anything that Eddy didn't use in 1970 they'd say "Read Rule #5 and HTFU!"


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Wow. I'm impressed with how well you did that presentation. 



coachboyd said:


> Thanks Ron, I wouldn't mind getting a set over to you and I'd love for these to be in the hub shootout.


Jason at Fairwheel does those. I'm sure he'll want one for his next installment. Of course, I'd love a set as well!



> It will come from the factory screwed into place and lightly loctited down.


Not a problem since it doesn't need to be removed. 



> Left hub shell - 6901
> Both freehub body bearings - 6803
> Right bearing that goes between main axle and freehub body (the red one in the color coded picture) - 6001[/COLOR]


Nice bearing sizes. Don't see 6001 much anymore, that's a very solid bearing. 

I'm still wondering about the load path for the hub shell on the DS side. Is it as I described above? Your design has some similarities with the Alchemy hub (and Maillard and Mavic), only they install the DS axle bearing in the shell extension. In yours it appears the hub loads have to take a convoluted path through the freehub before they get to the axle. No problem if it works well, but that doesn't seem ideal.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

rruff said:


> I'm still wondering about the load path for the hub shell on the DS side. Is it as I described above? Your design has some similarities with the Alchemy hub (and Maillard and Mavic), only they install the DS axle bearing in the shell extension. In yours it appears the hub loads have to take a convoluted path through the freehub before they get to the axle. No problem if it works well, but that doesn't seem ideal.


We had thought about placing the bearing between the main axle and the extension, but that would make it a very tiny bearing. With that bearing being a load bearing having something with super small ball bearings wouldn't be great.

We had looked at something like this in our first draft where the extension was threaded in and flared out at the end to put the bearing on the hub shell vs. the freehub body.









What we looked at was this, we had a bearing between a fixed object and the hub shell. With the final design we finally came up with the freehub body mounts onto the extension of the hub shell, so it's fully supported by the hub shell throughout the freehub body. In essence the freehub body becomes an extension of the hub shell (with it's own axle) instead of just butting up against the hub shell. The load doesn't go through the freehub body bearings, it goes through a bearing that is sandwiched between the main axle and the very right side of the effective hub shell extension. 

In this image from BikeRadar you can see that the main axle doesn't come close to hitting the freehub body bearings.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

^^

...you honestly know what's even more astounding than still seeing those hubs? It's watching an old guy (or, actually, more than a few of them) show up on rare occassion rides, on those old Campy 5-6 spd hubs, on even older bikes, with those useless strips of leather-covered padding helmets on their heads, their bike's brake cables stuck up in the air like some Twilight Zone episode, with index shifters pulled back pointing to the North Star. Later on, you stare like a zombie as they come pounding by you on the pave' near the end of many hour long gut-busting ride. Sure puts in perspective that all this new-fangled gear and whatever shenanigans we buy and/or put ourselves on doesn't mean much. It's still only the motor that climbs aboard any sort of two wheels that matters. These Belgians are living proof of that.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Yes, I think I understand how it works. It still seems like an undesirable loading path. Loads go through the hub shell and have a very circuitous route on the DS side before they reach the center axle, through the extension, to the freehub bearings, the freehub body, the big 6001 bearing and finally to the axle. There is a lot going on there that can result in flex, binding, plus high stress on the extension and freehub bearings. 

What sort of testing have you done?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I didn't realize that Easton had built a hub that reduces the typical cantilever. It looks very similar to Mavic only it uses a bearing rather than bushing on the inner freehub, and also has a conventional ratchet.


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