# I'm Done With Internal Gear Hubs



## Killroy

I've had my Civia Bryan for a couple of years and I'm done with it and here is why:









I hurt my shoulder mounting biking, and I started riding my Trek Madone to work because it is easier to move around off the bike. 

I started using my GPS to record the difference in average speeds from each bike. The Civia is ~8% slower or ~6 min over my 18 mile commute. I'll probably switch back to a convectional chain and derailleur. 

I bought the bike because, I liked the low maintenance of the belt drive and internal gear hub, and the disc brakes. All of those thing turned out to be more negative than positive:

1. The belt drive skips if it is not tensioned correctly.
2. Tensioning is difficult and has to be done carefully each time the wheel is removed.
3. The Alfine 8 Gear Hub is inefficient. I can feel the hub drag and I have measured it. 
4. When the belt is tensioned correctly, you can notice a lot more drag in the hub.
5. Its hard to change a rear flat.
6. The bike is heavy at 29.2 lb with no fenders or accessories. (Steel is not real).
7. The low end Avid Disc brakes (BB5) are dangerously bad and usually rub when adjusted for brake power.
8. The no name Versa shifter is not good.
9. Tires are too big and heavy for me.
10. I think the front fork is overbuilt and even with big tires the ride is harsh.


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## Reynolds531

But it's really cool in concept.


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## Killroy

I realize this is a rant, but I hope it is a informative one. For short distances, you would never know, but for the distances that I commute, its a drag. 

I would like the following for my commute purposes:

1. convectional chain
2. 1X9 or 1X8 drivetrain (I don't need a bolt on axle)
3. big road calipers or better disc brakes
4. big full coverage fenders
5. Equipped with full fenders the bike should be <22 lb


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## PlatyPius

I used to work for a shop that sold Spot bikes. The first thing I noticed was how much drag the belt drive had. It was a LOT. A lot of your energy is going to go into overcoming the friction of the belt. 2 of the Spot single speeds that we sold shredded the drive belt within 1000 miles. Whether that was due to the customer not getting the belt tensioned properly after a flat is possible, but we weren't able to determine that.

I've always wondered why IGHs are so popular for commuting. "More reliable, easier to service!" Really? I would bet that flat tires happen more frequently than spontaneous derailleur explosions. Me, I'd rather be able to change a flat quickly so I could get where I was going.


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## Pablo

Thanks for the rant. It's yet another vote against my dream of an IGH for my mtb.


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## freighttraininguphill

I have a couple IGH trikes for utility purposes, and I've had regular IGH bikes in the past. All of them are too damn slow! One of them has a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub. The thing often slips after shifting to second or third gear. The LBS I bought it from told me that is "normal" for those hubs.

Nothing can beat a conventional chain and derailleur drivetrain for simplicity, speed, and ease of maintenance, IMHO.


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## PlatyPius

Killroy said:


> I've had my Civia Bryan for a couple of years and I'm done with it and here is why:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hurt my shoulder mounting biking, and I started riding my Trek Madone to work because it is easier to move around off the bike.
> 
> I started using my GPS to record the difference in average speeds from each bike. The Civia is ~8% slower or ~6 min over my 18 mile commute. I'll probably switch back to a convectional chain and derailleur.
> 
> I bought the bike because, I liked the low maintenance of the belt drive and internal gear hub, and the disc brakes. All of those thing turned out to be more negative than positive:
> 
> 1. The belt drive skips if it is not tensioned correctly.
> 2. Tensioning is difficult and has to be done carefully each time the wheel is removed.
> 3. The Alfine 8 Gear Hub is inefficient. I can feel the hub drag and I have measured it.
> 4. When the belt is tensioned correctly, you can notice a lot more drag in the hub.
> 5. Its hard to change a rear flat.
> 6. The bike is heavy at 29.2 lb with no fenders or accessories. (Steel is not real).
> 7. The low end Avid Disc brakes (BB5) are dangerously bad and usually rub when adjusted for brake power.
> *8. The no name Versa shifter is not good.*
> 9. Tires are too big and heavy for me.
> 10. I think the front fork is overbuilt and even with big tires the ride is harsh.


BTW, the Versa shifter isn't a no-name. It's a Microshift. I hate them.


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## moschika

i appreciate this kind of review. i'm not currently in the market, but often considered an IGH for my next project, whenever that is. you seemed to have addressed some things i've wondered about.


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## Squidward

Killroy said:


> 7. The low end Avid Disc brakes (BB5) are dangerously bad and usually rub when adjusted for brake power.


The Avid mechanical disk brakes always seem to have the issue of the pads dragging on the rotor no matter how well adjusted they are or how true the rotor is. The BB5 calipers lack the adjustment for the static pad so you'll need to readjust the centering of the system manually as the pads wear. With the BB7s you don't have this issue, but, the pads still drag. I don't think it really hurts the performance of you and your bike, it's more an annoyance than anything else.


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## 55x11

Killroy said:


> I've had my Civia Bryan for a couple of years and I'm done with it and here is why:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hurt my shoulder mounting biking, and I started riding my Trek Madone to work because it is easier to move around off the bike.
> 
> I started using my GPS to record the difference in average speeds from each bike. The Civia is ~8% slower or ~6 min over my 18 mile commute. I'll probably switch back to a convectional chain and derailleur.
> 
> I bought the bike because, I liked the low maintenance of the belt drive and internal gear hub, and the disc brakes. All of those thing turned out to be more negative than positive:
> 
> 1. The belt drive skips if it is not tensioned correctly.
> 2. Tensioning is difficult and has to be done carefully each time the wheel is removed.
> 3. The Alfine 8 Gear Hub is inefficient. I can feel the hub drag and I have measured it.
> 4. When the belt is tensioned correctly, you can notice a lot more drag in the hub.
> 5. Its hard to change a rear flat.
> 6. The bike is heavy at 29.2 lb with no fenders or accessories. (Steel is not real).
> 7. The low end Avid Disc brakes (BB5) are dangerously bad and usually rub when adjusted for brake power.
> 8. The no name Versa shifter is not good.
> 9. Tires are too big and heavy for me.
> 10. I think the front fork is overbuilt and even with big tires the ride is harsh.


I have always wondered whenever someone rails about how great the Internal Gear Hub or the belt drive is - well, then how come derailleurs and chains have been around for so long and are still much more popular? I think there are a lot of "hidden" problems with some of these novelty items, and your post addresses some of them very well. Bikesnob had a post about how much PITA is his slightly misaligned beltdrive bike that he was testing. These sounds good in theory, or in concept stage until you run into minor maintenance (flat tire?) or misalignment issue.

Thanks for the rant.


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## Kerry Irons

*Normality*



freighttraininguphill said:


> I have a couple IGH trikes for utility purposes, and I've had regular IGH bikes in the past. All of them are too damn slow! One of them has a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub. The thing often slips after shifting to second or third gear. The LBS I bought it from told me that is "normal" for those hubs.


The shop is partly right. Slipping gears are normal for a badly adjusted SA hub. Otherwise, no.


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## freighttraininguphill

Kerry Irons said:


> The shop is partly right. Slipping gears are normal for a badly adjusted SA hub. Otherwise, no.


The hub was properly adjusted, and tweaking it didn't do any good. It catches, then slips once after shifting, then works fine until the next shift. Very annoying! Luckily it seems to be an intermittent problem.


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## StageHand

I could have told you all of that based on the picture. Except the part about the belt drive.

Nobody buys IG hubs for their efficiency. They buy them so they don't have to replace their chain and cassette all the time. You might not have know that Microshift was junk, but they don't have much positive feedback out there. Oh, look, big heavy tires! Of course this bike is slower than the Madone, there should never have been any expectation of that.

There's nothing you'll ever commute on that won't compromise something, and people who pick Civia bikes are compromising performance.

That said, even knowing that, you might not know you wouldn't like it. Sorry.


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## wvucyclist

So what size is it and how much will you want for it? My commute is much shorter, so 8% won't be as big of a deal, and my commuter now is 35 lbs (tank, yes) so it might even be faster. PM me with details if you're looking to unload it, which I'd assume you are.


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## freighttraininguphill

Kerry Irons said:


> I've dealt with several SA hubs over the years and never had this issue. It sounds like maybe you had a sticky cable. Otherwise, you got a defective hub.


I have a feeling it's the latter. Too bad I can't convert the drivertrain to an 8-speed derailleur setup. When the hub finally dies I'll see if I can put a Shimano Nexus 8-speed hub in there.


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## Kerry Irons

*Hub defect*



freighttraininguphill said:


> The hub was properly adjusted, and tweaking it didn't do any good. It catches, then slips once after shifting, then works fine until the next shift. Very annoying! Luckily it seems to be an intermittent problem.


I've dealt with several SA hubs over the years and never had this issue. It sounds like maybe you had a sticky cable. Otherwise, you got a defective hub.


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## PlatyPius

freighttraininguphill said:


> I have a feeling it's the latter. Too bad I can't convert the drivertrain to an 8-speed derailleur setup. When the hub finally dies I'll see if I can put a Shimano *Alfine 11-speed hub* in there.


Fixed it for you....


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## freighttraininguphill

PlatyPius said:


> Fixed it for you....


I was reading your post in another LBS. I mentioned the Shimano Alfine, and they told me it's the newest Shimano IGH. Thanks for letting me know about that! :thumbsup:

The owner has a service manual for various brands of IGH. I told him what was wrong with mine, and he found something in the manual about the little chain that comes out of the hub being loose. He hand-tightened that, but I still had one slipping incident. It's so intermittent that it's difficult to diagnose! :mad2:


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## StageHand

freighttraininguphill said:


> The hub was properly adjusted, and tweaking it didn't do any good. It catches, then slips once after shifting, then works fine until the next shift. Very annoying! Luckily it seems to be an intermittent problem.


Sounds like what it does when you shift while pedaling.


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## freighttraininguphill

StageHand said:


> Sounds like what it does when you shift while pedaling.


I'm not that hamfisted. I know better than that, so I have a feeling it's either a defective hub (story of my life!) or another adjustment problem.


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## StageHand

freighttraininguphill said:


> I'm not that hamfisted. I know better than that, so I have a feeling it's either a defective hub (story of my life!) or another adjustment problem.


I figured. I tried to couch that as best I could, though. Sometimes I think I should point out the obvious, other times not.

Good luck.


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## freighttraininguphill

StageHand said:


> I figured. I tried to couch that as best I could, though. Sometimes I think I should point out the obvious, other times not.
> 
> Good luck.


Oh I didn't think you were assuming I shifted while pedaling, but I figured I should mention that I didn't just so people know I didn't abuse the hub.


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## Jesse D Smith

PlatyPius said:


> I've always wondered why IGHs are so popular for commuting.


I can offer my own explanation. I can use a 1/8" chain, 1/8" ring, one cog and never do anything but clean and lube the chain every 800 miles.and still see no wear indicating I have to replace something. I can use a Jtek shifter and after three years, it's still as crisp as new. I've found the 8 gears are all I need for commuting, and actually enjoy not thinking about two shifters. I can ride through three monsoon seasons and see no evidence of water damage. When the times comes, I only have to quickly wipe down one cog rather than floss a cluster of 8, 9, or 10. 
There's no arguing that changing a flat is more difficult. I either got lucky or made the wise decision to use Schwalbe tires and tubes. Maybe three flats in three years. Trust me, if I had flats every month, I might consider another setup. 
The first version of the 8-speed Nexus hubs had sealing issues. Those were corrected in later versions. If you read the reviews from long term users of the 8-speed Shimano Alfine/Nexus Red Band hubs, the consensus is positive. Years from now, I think they will be looked at as one of the most reliable components made. 
I suspect someone who finds maintaining one a hassle would find maintaining a derailleur setup a hassle as well. We both make a decent living serving these people.


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## WWayne

Same here!

The efficiency of internal gearing is less than that of a chain and sprockets. Multiple planetary gearing in small dimensions cannot match efficiency of the straight pull of a chain and sprocket More moving and sliding parts.
Also, the rear triangle is not a complete triangle at the hub mounting point. The chain pull is probably deforming the frame and subtracting some distance from each peddle stroke.

The belt drive tension is preloading the bearing of the hub and the crank also introducing some loss. The preload must be greater than the maximum load or the system unloads and becomes slack.

In auto engines, camshaft belt drive needs replacing at 80K miles whereas the chain drive is good for nearly the life of the engine.


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## freighttraininguphill

Yesterday I rode a heavy duty Sun Atlas trike that someone made into a fixed gear. It was fun to be able to ride that thing backwards and have a "reverse". With the exeption of the slight play in the drivetrain when you first apply power to the pedals, it seemed very efficient. It would be even more so without the knobby tires. If I had the room I would buy it. It had a front caliper and rear drum brake, so it was still set up for practical use.

A bike like that would make more sense in a flat area than the problematic Sturmey Archer IGH I have on my trike.


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## AndreyT

Squidward said:


> The Avid mechanical disk brakes always seem to have the issue of the pads dragging on the rotor no matter how well adjusted they are or how true the rotor is. The BB5 calipers lack the adjustment for the static pad so you'll need to readjust the centering of the system manually as the pads wear.


Sorry, this is absolutely incorrect. This sounds like a post from a few years ago, when these brakes where not available yet and people made crazy guesses about what they might turn out to be.

You got it totally backwards. The Avid BB5 incorporate typical full-fledged adjustment for the static pad, with a knob on the inner side of the caliper (just like in BB7). It is fairly easy to see these adjusters in the picture posted by the OP. The difference of BB5 is that they have no similar knob for the adjustment of the outer (movable) pad. The outer pad is adjusted by a barrel nut located on the brake arm on the caliper end of the cable (in addition to the one you might also have (or not) on the brake lever end of the cable). There's no need to adjust the centering of the system to compensate for the wear, as you seem to erroneously believe. And no, the pads don't drag on the rotors. (Although it won't surprise me if they do for a cyclist who's apparently not familiar with the proper adjustment procedure for this system.)

And, to refer to the bizarre claims made by the OP, BB5 proved to be an extremely high-quality system. It is not the top of the Avid line, obviously, but as far as mechanical disc brakes go, it is just a notch under the top-level quality system.


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## rfomenko

Killroy said:


> I've had my Civia Bryan for a couple of years and I'm done with it and here is why:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hurt my shoulder mounting biking, and I started riding my Trek Madone to work because it is easier to move around off the bike.
> 
> I started using my GPS to record the difference in average speeds from each bike. The Civia is ~8% slower or ~6 min over my 18 mile commute. I'll probably switch back to a convectional chain and derailleur.
> 
> I bought the bike because, I liked the low maintenance of the belt drive and internal gear hub, and the disc brakes. All of those thing turned out to be more negative than positive:
> 
> 1. The belt drive skips if it is not tensioned correctly.
> 2. Tensioning is difficult and has to be done carefully each time the wheel is removed.
> 3. The Alfine 8 Gear Hub is inefficient. I can feel the hub drag and I have measured it.
> 4. When the belt is tensioned correctly, you can notice a lot more drag in the hub.
> 5. Its hard to change a rear flat.
> 6. The bike is heavy at 29.2 lb with no fenders or accessories. (Steel is not real).
> 7. The low end Avid Disc brakes (BB5) are dangerously bad and usually rub when adjusted for brake power.
> 8. The no name Versa shifter is not good.
> 9. Tires are too big and heavy for me.
> 10. I think the front fork is overbuilt and even with big tires the ride is harsh.


1. Get rid of the belt & get a regular chain & sprockets/crank. Then put the belt drive on Ebay so someone else can try it (and may be like it). Fixed.
2. Fixed
3. What do expect from and entry level multi-speed hub? It's not even oil lubricated. Alfine 11 is & gets great reviews. Also it has 3 more speeds & smaller jumps between gears. A fix can be expensive though...
4. Oh no, not the belt again...
5. I do not remember when I did that last time.. Continental Gatorskin 28mm or Sport Contact. Set it and forget it. Also, put some sealant into the tubes (Stan's?). Then practice changing the tire at home couple of times. Fixed.
6. Of course the bike is heavy. It's a touring/commuting rig. The weight is within the range for touring (i.e. 27-30 pounds). Check out the other touring bikes like Jamis Aurora, Surly LHT etc. Fixed.
7. Entry level disc brakes + someone with no experience in adjusting them = problems. I heard that Avid BB7 are much better but your mileage can vary...
8. No experience with them but I take your word for it.
9. Change the tires! That's what I almost always swap after getting a new bike along with the seat and pedals. Just looking at your tires makes me wonder why the difference in your commute is ONLY 6 minutes comparing to Madone. Get some good 28-32 mm slicks and you'll cut that time in a half.
10. Harsh ride is almost always due to too much pressure in the tires. Do not pump them up to the maximum limit. Considering the bike's geometry (i.e. the longish wheelbase & relaxed angles) the ride should be VERY plush. 

Here is the bike you should've gotten instead, btw:

On-One Pompetamine Versa 11 Speed Pro £1,199.00

A cyclocrosser with quality components and chain drive. 26 pounds.


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## Killroy

AndreyT said:


> Sorry, this is absolutely incorrect. This sounds like a post from a few years ago, when these brakes where not available yet and people made crazy guesses about what they might turn out to be.
> 
> You got it totally backwards. The Avid BB5 incorporate typical full-fledged adjustment for the static pad, with a knob on the inner side of the caliper (just like in BB7). It is fairly easy to see these adjusters in the picture posted by the OP. The difference of BB5 is that they have no similar knob for the adjustment of the outer (movable) pad. The outer pad is adjusted by a barrel nut located on the brake arm on the caliper end of the cable (in addition to the one you might also have (or not) on the brake lever end of the cable). There's no need to adjust the centering of the system to compensate for the wear, as you seem to erroneously believe. And no, the pads don't drag on the rotors. (Although it won't surprise me if they do for a cyclist who's apparently not familiar with the proper adjustment procedure for this system.)
> 
> And, to refer to the bizarre claims made by the OP, BB5 proved to be an extremely high-quality system. It is not the top of the Avid line, obviously, but as far as mechanical disc brakes go, it is just a notch under the top-level quality system.


I'm familiar with how to adjust the BB5s and they are unsatisfactory for me. I disagree with one of your points because if _don't_ adjust your static pad, braking power will get dangerously low. 

Wet performance is scary also. Did I mention that I took this bike on a rainy day, because I thought it would perform good with disk brakes, a belt and fenders. At the end of the ride I was riding so slow because I had to jump off the back inorder not to hit the garage. I had stopped many times to adjust the brakes. The bike shop says that other pads will help, but BB5s are not the best. hmm, disk brakes are suppose to be better.

When adjusting the the brakes, either the pads are rubbing at some point or the brake power sucks. Sometimes I think I have the pads adjusted perfect with no rubbing, then I use the brakes and the slight amount of thermal distortion causes pad drag that is embarrassingly loud.

I have tried reconditioning the pads and spending money to buy new pads and the benefit was always temporary. I have talked to other people that have had the same problems and they say if I upgraded to the BB7, then my problems will be solved. BB5 are one of the lowest reviewed brake systems on MTBR.

This bike has unique levers, which the boys at the bike shop suggested as the culprit, but I don't think it is the levers because lever design is so easy. 

I've adjusted cantis, v-brakes, road brakes and hydraulic disk brakes and the BB5s are the worst modern brakes I have ever seen. There may be a code to crack, but it is just not worth the hassle. I will dial the brakes in long enough just long enough to dump this bike on the used bike market.


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## Killroy

rfomenko said:


> Here is the bike you should've gotten instead, btw:
> 
> On-One Pompetamine Versa 11 Speed Pro £1,199.00


That bike has the same Versa Shifter-Levers. No thanks.


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## PlatyPius

Killroy said:


> I'm familiar with how to adjust the BB5s and they are unsatisfactory for me. I disagree with one of your points because if _don't_ adjust your static pad, braking power will get dangerously low.
> 
> Wet performance is scary also. Did I mention that I took this bike on a rainy day, because I thought it would perform good with disk brakes, a belt and fenders. At the end of the ride I was riding so slow because I had to jump off the back inorder not to hit the garage. I had stopped many times to adjust the brakes. The bike shop says that other pads will help, but BB5s are not the best. hmm, disk brakes are suppose to be better.
> 
> When adjusting the the brakes, either the pads are rubbing at some point or the brake power sucks. Sometimes I think I have the pads adjusted perfect with no rubbing, then I use the brakes and the slight amount of thermal distortion causes pad drag that is embarrassingly loud.
> 
> I have tried reconditioning the pads and spending money to buy new pads and the benefit was always temporary. I have talked to other people that have had the same problems and they say if I upgraded to the BB7, then my problems will be solved.
> 
> This bike has unique levers, which the boys at the bike shop suggested as the culprit, but I don't think it is the levers because lever design is so easy.
> 
> I've adjusted cantis, v-brakes, road brakes and hydraulic disk brakes and the BB5s are the worst modern brakes I have ever seen. There may be a code to crack, but it is just not worth the hassle. I will dial the brakes in long enough just long enough to dump this bike on the used bike market.


I disagree AND agree with you and the person you quoted.

The inner knob on the BB5 and BB7 is there not only for initial setup, but also to adjust for pad wear.

As for your concerns....
I have never had any of the issues you seem to have on any of the 50+ sets of BB5s that I have installed.

If your brakes are rubbing in one spot, bend your rotor straight.

You DO have the road version of the BB5s on there, right?
Microshit levers don't seem to have as much pull as other levers, which might explain the poor braking and the other problems, since the pads won't release as far with them.


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## rfomenko

Killroy said:


> That bike has the same Versa Shifter-Levers. No thanks.


No, those are 11 Speed shifters. I do not know if they improved them in any way over the 8 speed version. What is exactly you problem with them? The rest of the bike is definitely a big improvement over your Bryant. In any case, you can't always get what you want. Welcome back to the good old derailler bikes. I have three with no intention of getting rid of any of them any time soon.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Merlin Titanium Classic / Campagnolo Record 10 Speed
Surly Pacer 2007/Shimano Ultegra
Raleigh One Way 2007 (Sturmey-Archer 3 speed conversion)
Bianchi Volpe 2006


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## AndreyT

Killroy said:


> I'm familiar with how to adjust the BB5s and they are unsatisfactory for me. I disagree with one of your points because if _don't_ adjust your static pad, braking power will get dangerously low.


Er... I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. You previous complaint seemed to be about the difficulty of adjusting these brakes (due to a missing adjustment knob on one side). Now you seem not to like the very fact that they need adjustment? "If _don't_ adjust..." Well, welcome to the world of bicycle brakes. If you don't adjust them, braking power will indeed get dangerously low. No argument about it. That is why you *do* adjust them. Fortunately, in virtually all kinds of bicycle brakes the brake lever throw gets used up well before the "braking power will get dangerously low", which is why it is virtually impossible to get to that point without an advance warning.

Also, typical mechanical disc brake is not like a car brake. Only one pad is moving, hence the need for relatively frequent adjustment. At the same time the flexibility designed into the brake disc is supposed to allow for some (or "for quite a bit of") non-equal wear between the pads, so that you don't have to adjust them after each mile. I don't see how this can possibly fail. It works fine for me.

If in your case the braking power was inadequate despite you having the full unobstructed throw of the brake lever... I don't know. Something else must have been wrong.



Killroy said:


> Wet performance is scary also. Did I mention that I took this bike on a rainy day, because I thought it would perform good with disk brakes, a belt and fenders. At the end of the ride I was riding so slow because I had to jump off the back inorder not to hit the garage. I had stopped many times to adjust the brakes. The bike shop says that other pads will help, but BB5s are not the best. hmm, disk brakes are suppose to be better.


I ride BB5's with stock pads. No problems whatsoever. And yes, I rode them in the wet a few times already. Any chance of any lubricant somehow finding its way to the brake disc surfaces?



Killroy said:


> When adjusting the the brakes, either the pads are rubbing at some point or the brake power sucks. Sometimes I think I have the pads adjusted perfect with no rubbing, then I use the brakes and the slight amount of thermal distortion causes pad drag that is embarrassingly loud.


I get brake squeal when actually braking. The exact amount of noise I get seems to depend on several conditions (temperature, wet/dry, force applied). But that's just how disc brakes work. There's no such thing as absolutely quiet disc brake.



Killroy said:


> I have tried reconditioning the pads and spending money to buy new pads and the benefit was always temporary. I have talked to other people that have had the same problems and they say if I upgraded to the BB7, then my problems will be solved.


I highly doubt that. I have no extended experience with BB7 myself, but I did several rides on two different borrowed bikes with BB7. I can't say I noticed any considerable difference. At least, the brake squeal under braking is there.



Killroy said:


> BB5 are one of the lowest reviewed brake systems on MTBR.


Well, it is an OEM system  Of course it won't receive very good reviews. It takes quite a bit of self-confidence and... Um... How do I put it?... How can I say in one word: "A person that is not getting paid by a marketing departments of vendors, who engage in ages-old standard practice of dissing OEM systems to push their own upgrades". Let's say "non-shilll-ness"  So, it takes quite a bit of self-confidence and nonshillness to make a good review of an OEM system


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## Killroy

AndreyT said:


> Er... I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. You previous complaint seemed to be about the difficulty of adjusting these brakes (due to a missing adjustment knob on one side). Now you seem not to like the very fact that they need adjustment? "If _don't_ adjust..." Well, welcome to the world of bicycle brakes. If you don't adjust them, braking power will indeed get dangerously low. No argument about it. That is why you *do* adjust them. Fortunately, in virtually all kinds of bicycle brakes the brake lever throw gets used up well before the "braking power will get dangerously low", which is why it is virtually impossible to get to that point without an advance warning.
> 
> Also, typical mechanical disc brake is not like a car brake. Only one pad is moving, hence the need for relatively frequent adjustment. At the same time the flexibility designed into the brake disc is supposed to allow for some (or "for quite a bit of") non-equal wear between the pads, so that you don't have to adjust them after each mile. I don't see how this can possibly fail. It works fine for me.
> 
> If in your case the braking power was inadequate despite you having the full unobstructed throw of the brake lever... I don't know. Something else must have been wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I ride BB5's with stock pads. No problems whatsoever. And yes, I rode them in the wet a few times already. Any chance of any lubricant somehow finding its way to the brake disc surfaces?
> 
> 
> 
> I get brake squeal when actually braking. The exact amount of noise I get seems to depend on several conditions (temperature, wet/dry, force applied). But that's just how disc brakes work. There's no such thing as absolutely quiet disc brake.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt that. I have no extended experience with BB7 myself, but I did several rides on two different borrowed bikes with BB7. I can't say I noticed any considerable difference. At least, the brake squeal under braking is there.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it is an OEM system  Of course it won't receive very good reviews. It takes quite a bit of self-confidence and... Um... How do I put it?... How can I say in one word: "A person that is not getting paid by a marketing departments of vendors, who engage in ages-old standard practice of dissing OEM systems to push their own upgrades". Let's say "non-shilll-ness"  So, it takes quite a bit of self-confidence and nonshillness to make a good review of an OEM system


Do you work at AVID


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## AndreyT

Killroy said:


> Do you work at AVID


No. But I brake with AVID on my rides to and from work


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## Killroy

The Versa Shifter/Levers have very bad ergonomics. The glove gets caught on the lever. When you use them, you realize how awesome Shimano, Sram and Campy are. 

They work, just bad ergonomics.


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## rfomenko

Killroy said:


> The Versa Shifter/Levers have very bad ergonomics. The glove gets caught on the lever. When you use them, you realize how awesome Shimano, Sram and Campy are.
> 
> They work, just bad ergonomics.


OK, got it. They work well as the brakes but not as the shifters. Their shape is very similar to Shimano, as far as I can see. So they can't be that uncomforatable. But you're right, the small lever looks a bit out of place. Can you shift more than one gear at once (i.e. rapid shifting) with them?


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## Killroy

rfomenko said:


> OK, got it. They work well as the brakes but not as the shifters. Their shape is very similar to Shimano, as far as I can see. So they can't be that uncomfortable. But you're right, the small lever looks a bit out of place. Can you shift more than one gear at once (i.e. rapid shifting) with them?


Looks can be deceiving. When the bike shop was building the bike, they had a theory that the mechanical leverage of the brake levers was not good, but since I have not tried them with anything other than the BB5, I dont really know.


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## lgh

For reliability, it's tough to beat 1 x (take your pick) with downtube friction shifters, suitable brakes, and fenders. 

Larry


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## rfomenko

Killroy said:


> Looks can be deceiving. When the bike shop was building the bike, they had a theory that the mechanical leverage of the brake levers was not good, but since I have not tried them with anything other than the BB5, I dont really know.


Mechanical leverage of the brake lever? Do you mean they're too small? Doesn't look to me at all. I bet they copied the size of Shimano/Sram lever to 1/10 of an inch. Must be something wrong with the brakes set up.


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## PlatyPius

rfomenko said:


> Mechanical leverage of the brake lever? Do you mean they're too small? Doesn't look to me at all. I bet they copied the size of Shimano/Sram lever to 1/10 of an inch. Must be something wrong with the brakes set up.



No. What he was told is correct, IME. The pivot point of the lever + rigidity of the system (or lack thereof) = a crappy brake feel with less power than a Shimano, SRAM, Campy lever.


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## rfomenko

PlatyPius said:


> No. What he was told is correct, IME. The pivot point of the lever + rigidity of the system (or lack thereof) = a crappy brake feel with less power than a Shimano, SRAM, Campy lever.


That's very unfortunate, if indeed true. I hope they improved them with the 11 speed version.


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## Killroy

rfomenko said:


> That's very unfortunate, if indeed true. I hope they improved them with the 11 speed version.


The 11 speed Versa is exactly the same as the 8 speed, except that the lever is dark in color and it has more clicks. Stay away.:cryin:


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## Killroy

PlatyPius said:


> No. What he was told is correct, IME. The pivot point of the lever + rigidity of the system (or lack thereof) = a crappy brake feel with less power than a Shimano, SRAM, Campy lever.


Could be true. Anyone know any specs brake levers?


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## Killroy

lgh said:


> For reliability, it's tough to beat 1 x (take your pick) with downtube friction shifters, suitable brakes, and fenders.
> 
> Larry


1X9 is my favorite setup on my race mountain bike. Down-tube snifters would be awesome for a commuter. Heck, how about a flat bar and a thumby sifter. :thumbsup:


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## Slim Again Soon

I've got an internal gear hub bike that I enjoy. It has chain drive, though, not belt. Originally had a 10-speed chain, because that was what was handy at the time, but I just put on a single-speed KMC chain. It looks indestructable.

The hub is an Shimano Alfine, the 8-speed version. Yes, I have the Versa shifters. I dunno, they seem to work fine for me. It helps to have the shifter cable in good shape — well lubricated.

Brakes are Avid BB7s. I still haven't figured out how to adjust those. I have trouble with them rubbing. Hard to keep the disc true — is a warp common among disc brakes?

One thing about disc brakes — I'm glad I've got them coming to a stop on hill with a load of groceries. They get the job done.

Same thing in the wet — big difference between disc and rim brakes.


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## rfomenko

Slim Again said:


> I've got an internal gear hub bike that I enjoy. It has chain drive, though, not belt. Originally had a 10-speed chain, because that was what was handy at the time, but I just put on a single-speed KMC chain. It looks indestructable.
> 
> The hub is an Shimano Alfine, the 8-speed version. Yes, I have the Versa shifters. I dunno, they seem to work fine for me. It helps to have the shifter cable in good shape — well lubricated.
> 
> Brakes are Avid BB7s. I still haven't figured out how to adjust those. I have trouble with them rubbing. Hard to keep the disc true — is a warp common among disc brakes?
> 
> One thing about disc brakes — I'm glad I've got them coming to a stop on hill with a load of groceries. They get the job done.
> 
> Same thing in the wet — big difference between disc and rim brakes.


Well, chain instead of belt makes a difference. After all, it solves many more problems than belt creats...


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## majura

Slim Again said:


> I've got an internal gear hub bike that I enjoy. It has chain drive, though, not belt.


+1 

This isn't my bike, but the model released thereafter.. similar enough though:









I live in the middle of the city (Berlin) where it's relatively flat and there's lots of traffic lights/start-stop-slow situations. The longest A to B trip (return) I have is around 20km or 12mi. I also often stop along my commute to get cash, pick up specific items (we have shopping centres but they don't have 'everything' and it's quite common to visit a few shops to get what you want). 

All of this is why I love my inefficient run-of-the-mill Nexus 8 IGH. It plunders along with no complaints through all sorts of weather and all it requires is a simple lube and chain tension every 3 months. Should someone choose to poorly park/lock their bike next to mine - I don't have to worry about a bent derailleur. Should a tourist decide to attempt suicide by stepping onto the bike lane right in front of me or a car cut me off- it's an easy shift down. Don't get me wrong, I feel the drag and the weight but I get the gear that I want when I want (albeit with applying less pressure). My IGH makes my city-riding easier. 

I understand your frustrations, just saying that there is a place for IGH's. It might be a few years yet though till the industry sorts out the IGH system for you.


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## freighttraininguphill

I was almost ready to yank the finicky Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub out of my trike, shorten the chain, and connect it directly to the cog on the rear axle, making it a fixed gear. Luckily, someone at the LBS finally got it adjusted so it almost never skips.

I will not buy another Sturmey-Archer IGH-equipped bike. I don't have these problems with my Shimano Nexus-equipped trike.


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## jrm

*You and me both*

what an all round PITA. Back to derailleurs.


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## freighttraininguphill

freighttraininguphill said:


> I was almost ready to yank the finicky Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub out of my trike, shorten the chain, and connect it directly to the cog on the rear axle, making it a fixed gear.


I finally did just that. Had enough of the skipping, which always returns. The last straw was when I was accelerating in third gear and the damn thing skipped, so I converted the trike to fixed gear. Now it's a blast to ride because I can ride backwards!


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## JohnnyTooBad

I find the OP's original rant interesting. He says he has had it with IGHs, but nothing in his rant refers to issues with IGHs as a concept or product. He has problems with his bike and the belt drive, but nothing about the function of the IGH.

I put a 5 speed Sturmey on my single speed commuter because my commute got a lot longer and hillier. I have to admit that I should have gone with my original plan for an 8 speed Alfine because the gear ratios are too far apart on the 5 speed. Admittedly, I get the occasional skip when shifting from 3rd to 4th, about a minute or two after I shift. It only seems to do it once after each shift. But an IGH is the only way to get gears on a single speed with no derailleur hanger and horizontal drops. But the issues I have, just like the OP's issues are not indicative of IGHs as a concept. The skipping may be due to shifting while pedaling with a little bit of load on the pedals. An 8 speed Shimano Alfine would probably be a better product, but does cost more. If you have lots of coin, go with a Rolhoff for about $1.2k. If you read the thread here about the Bound South guys. The 3 of them rode from Alaska to Argentina on Rolhoff hubs, and I don't recall hearing a single issue with any of them.

I would do an IGH again, but I would do it differently.


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## andleo

I have a kona dr good with a nexus 7 speed and a roller brake. For commuting it works well but my commute to work is ~4mi to work and about 5 mi back (take a different route due to traffic). At work we have bike parking in the break room - I really like not having to worry about my coworkers goobering up the shifting by being clumsy. 

The only thing I dread is changing a rear flat with the roller brake I think I would probably walk the rest of the way.


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## Killroy

Update on my troubles:

FYI, my beef with the IGH is that its inefficient. If your not commuting far, then you probably will not notice, if you have a 17-20 mile commute, then you will notice. I found that I have more fun going fast and easy than slow and hard.

The IGH/Belt Drive almost stranded me 17 miles form home. I had to limp the bike to Cal Train when something blew up in the hub and the drive train would spin with only 5% going to the wheels. I took it to the bike shop and they said that the Gates aluminum interface to the hub wore out. This should never happen and if so its a design flaw. When the new sprocket came in the bike shop sent the hub/wheel back to Shimano for some out of warranty work. It probably was not the sprocket. 

Remember I was having problems with the brakes. I had the bike shop tune them and they swapped pads but when I got it back the levers were pulling to close to the bars, If I adjusted it they rub. Its a no win situation. The lever might be to blame because the leverage rate is probably too high. The BB5s are also very bad because they have poor parallelism and this causes the edge of a pad to rub. 

What a lemon. I bought a Globe Daily 1 (single speed) to replace this bike, its $1,300 cheaper and its beautiful in black.


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## Stuart B

Why is it so heavy? my full sus mtb with Rohloff is about 27lb...and I love my Rohloff


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## Killroy

Stuart B said:


> Why is it so heavy? my full sus mtb with Rohloff is about 27lb...and I love my Rohloff


Steel. The Civia is overbuilt steel and the Shimano Alfine is ~ 1847 g

I think that the consensus is that Rohloff is a much better hub at a decent system weight.


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## Scott B

Killroy said:


> Steel. The Civia is overbuilt steel and the Shimano Alfine is ~ 1847 g
> 
> I think that the consensus is that Rohloff is a much better hub at a decent system weight.


My partner has 10,000+ miles on her Rohloff with great reliability. The only real issues with the Rohloff is the price. 

One thing on the Rohloff that's very different then the Alfine is that the shift mechanism is a dual cable system that act in opposition to each other. Once set up this system does work well. Also, there are very few after-market options for the shifter.


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## JohnnyTooBad

I don't notice any extra resistance from my SA 5 speed. But it's not a belt drive. I could see where that would add resistance. I commute 18 miles on mine.

I did, however, get my first flat with the IGH (which also has a drum brake). Luckily, it was that the valve went bad and I noticed it was flat when I pulled it out to clean it yesterday. What a royal PITA it was to get the wheel off. Having fenders with horizontal drops has always made getting the rear wheel off a bit more of a pain, but having to disconnect the brake cable, the shift cable and the brake arm holder was just obnoxious. And that was with the bike on a stand. If I got a flat while far from home, the only tool I would need would be my cell phone, to call my wife or a cab.


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## wooglin

freighttraininguphill said:


> I finally did just that. Had enough of the skipping, which always returns. The last straw was when I was accelerating in third gear and the damn thing skipped, so here is my fixed gear trike. There are still shots of the drivetrain during the first 20 seconds of the video. Yes I know the bike is dirty, but I'd rather spend time riding my bikes than washing them. It is well maintained otherwise. Besides, I'm hoping the bike will be less attractive to thieves if it is dirty.
> 
> This bike is actually fun to ride now, at least around town. It is useless on longer rides because it is geared too low.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCZyrOhsWpA


I bet you can track stand the hell out of that thing.


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## freighttraininguphill

wooglin said:


> I bet you can track stand the hell out of that thing.


I got some looks on Sunday when I applied some power to the pedals riding backwards and spun the right rear wheel (it's a one-wheel drive trike like most trikes nowadays).  This was at the Sacramento Cyclefest bike show in Southside Park, so there were some other fixed gear bikes and riders there.


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## TomH

At 18 miles a day, 5 days a week.. thats about 4700 miles a year, or maybe a cassette and 2 chains per year (a bit pessimistic). With 8 speed, thats around $40-$50 bucks in gear. Add in bar end shifters and you've got an amazingly reliable setup, also quite light.


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## jpatkinson

I have a 2011 CIVIA Bryant I had built-up specifically to address my concerns with the off-the-shelf Bryant build: I went with Alfine 11, Avid BB7, upright bars with rapid-fire shifting, and Gates Center-Track. 










The bike cost a fortune and weighs 35#. When I am at commuting speed on my way to work, this bike is the perfect combination of riding position, gear range, braking power, agility, and durability. Changing a flat? Not for the faint of heart (I have had two in the past 8 months) -- I walked it home both times. Hub spontaneously changing gear when climbing a hill? Happens weekly -- LBS couldn't fix the problem, though improved with zip-tied cable "solution." Nice. And, while I love the grease-free drivetrain -- 35# is heavy. 

I dream of having strong enough thighs to convert it to a single-speed. 

If I could do it over, I would have just bought a Long Haul Trucker and saved the extra $1500.


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## PlatyPius

JohnnyTooBad said:


> I don't notice any extra resistance from my SA 5 speed. But it's not a belt drive. I could see where that would add resistance. I commute 18 miles on mine.
> 
> I did, however, get my first flat with the IGH (which also has a drum brake). Luckily, it was that the valve went bad and I noticed it was flat when I pulled it out to clean it yesterday. What a royal PITA it was to get the wheel off. Having fenders with horizontal drops has always made getting the rear wheel off a bit more of a pain, but having to disconnect the brake cable, the shift cable and the brake arm holder was just obnoxious. And that was with the bike on a stand. If I got a flat while far from home, the only tool I would need would be my cell phone, to call my wife or a cab.


That's the part no one seems to think of when they talk about how great IGH are for commuting. To compensate for the difficulty of fixing a flat, they use Mr. Tuffy's liners AND thorn-proof tubes AND 'flat-proof' tires. Sometimes they use all of those PLUS Slime in the tubes. So those "simple" wheels now weigh 15 pounds.

Are derailleurs really so difficult that an IGH is necessary for commuters? Do they explode in a shower of small bolts and ninja death stars regularly? No, they don't. Internal Gear Hubs are for the Hipsters of the commuter world. It's a solution that is worse/more difficult than the perceived problem. Basically, it's fashion. IGH bikes are "cool" again.

(Except in the case of JTB above, and others like him, who had a SS with no real way to add gears other than an IGH)


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## jpatkinson

PlatyPius said:


> Internal Gear Hubs are for the Hipsters of the commuter world. It's a solution that is worse/more difficult than the perceived problem. Basically, it's fashion. IGH bikes are "cool" again.


I enjoyed your capitalization of the word, "hipster."


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## andleo

PlatyPius said:


> That's the part no one seems to think of when they talk about how great IGH are for commuting. To compensate for the difficulty of fixing a flat, they use Mr. Tuffy's liners AND thorn-proof tubes AND 'flat-proof' tires. Sometimes they use all of those PLUS Slime in the tubes. So those "simple" wheels now weigh 15 pounds.
> 
> Are derailleurs really so difficult that an IGH is necessary for commuters? Do they explode in a shower of small bolts and ninja death stars regularly? No, they don't. Internal Gear Hubs are for the Hipsters of the commuter world. It's a solution that is worse/more difficult than the perceived problem. Basically, it's fashion. IGH bikes are "cool" again.
> 
> (Except in the case of JTB above, and others like him, who had a SS with no real way to add gears other than an IGH)


if not for the roller brake on mine changing a flat would be a non issue. With a rim brake or disc it would only require unhooking the shift cable and loosening the axle nuts.

For me the draw of the internal geared hub was that at work we have at times up to a dozen bikes in our break room bike parking, an internally geared hub means one of my coworkers won't jam their bike into my derailleur.

I run flat resistant tires and a slime tube in the back I doubt it weighs 35 lbs, 30-32 perhaps and considering the my other bikes, a 29er and a salsa vaya and fargo that weigh 27+lbs it isn't bad.

If I had a longer commute (mine is 4 miles to work ~5 home) like 7+ miles each way it wouldn't be worth it but for my commute and quick trips to the store it is definitely worth it.


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## lwkwafi

I still can't buy many of the large complaints posted in the original post. 

no kidding the bike is heavier than your madone, and your times are slower, remember when you told us how much heavier the bike was, and then complained about crappy tires and neglected to mention the boat anchor wheels? Steel is real in many instances, and if madones aren't commuting bikes for most people. the civia is a light touring bike like my casseroll. I really have no illusions that my Salsa will be as quick as my kelly bone stock, but my Kelly can't handle two panniers full of books. 

Drop the crappy shifter, buy new levers and a jtek bar end shifter. That shifter will give you the best, most reliable and reassuring feel out of pretty much any shifter you have ever used. 

And, as other have pointed out, you really didn't bring much to bear on internally geared hubs. Instead you railed against a stock bike. Yes BB5s are relatively crappy. Yes the tires are heavy. Yes the wheels are heavy. I am surprised you didn't complain about the saddle hurting you. 

It sounds more like you were expecting the bike to be something that it never could be.


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## rfomenko

I converted Raleigh One Way to Sturmey Archer 3 speed. This is my commuter/shopper & lunch break exercise bike. Love it.


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## Killroy

lwkwafi said:


> I still can't buy many of the large complaints posted in the original post.
> 
> no kidding the bike is heavier than your madone, and your times are slower, remember when you told us how much heavier the bike was, and then complained about crappy tires and neglected to mention the boat anchor wheels? Steel is real in many instances, and if madones aren't commuting bikes for most people. the civia is a light touring bike like my casseroll. I really have no illusions that my Salsa will be as quick as my kelly bone stock, but my Kelly can't handle two panniers full of books.
> 
> Drop the crappy shifter, buy new levers and a jtek bar end shifter. That shifter will give you the best, most reliable and reassuring feel out of pretty much any shifter you have ever used.
> 
> And, as other have pointed out, you really didn't bring much to bear on internally geared hubs. Instead you railed against a stock bike. Yes BB5s are relatively crappy. Yes the tires are heavy. Yes the wheels are heavy. I am surprised you didn't complain about the saddle hurting you.
> 
> It sounds more like you were expecting the bike to be something that it never could be.



Meh, I expect disc brakes to function better than cantis, and gear hubs not to fail and it is sad that a modern, commute bike has such a heavy frame. FYI, my Madone only cost ~$100 more then the Civia in used, good condition, so since the both bikes dont come with fenders, a used race bike is better than my Civia Bryant turned out.


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