# How about some suggestions for Bikesdirect's website?



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

I would like to preface this post by saying we need to have more activity in this Moto forum.:10: I come on here all the time and there seems to be very little activity on any given day. On the main forums page, you can see how many people are viewing a forum at any given time and I always see a bunch of folks reading the Moto forum, but only the same few seem to be posting anything. I'm sure it will pick up as the season winds down and the weather gets worse, but come on now people, start saying something!:incazzato:

OK, with that being said, I would like to propose that we use this thread to make suggestions for Mike at Bikesdirect on what he could do to improve the website and make it more user friendly and informative. I DO NOT want anyone to use this space to make complaints about the company or dispute anything it says on it's site. I am just proposing that we make creative, constructive suggestions that may help Mike make the website better. 

I have no idea if he cares about our suggestions or not, but it's Friday night past midnight and I'm awake, bored and I have been checking out the new selections at bikesdirect this evening. I have things I would like to see changed and I know others have expressed a desire for different or additional info they would like to see on the site. _I am not affiliated in any way_ except that I have purchased 3 bikes from BD in the last 2.5 years and would have liked to see some additional things on the BD website to help me make my decisions. OK then, enough rambling...

*Mike, are you reading this thread? I hope so. 

*Here is my first suggestion. :cornut:

1- I would really like to see additional photos of the bikes you have for sale. The side views are nice, but I sure would like to see more pictures of the components, wheels, and everything else. The sellers on Ebay(sprtymama,etc.) show multiple views of the bikes you sell so I think you would be able to add that to the site. This, I believe, would be the greatest improvement you could make.

I have more ideas, but I will wait to see what others have to say. So, feel free to chime in with your suggestions. Anyone? Bueller?


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

sonex305 said:


> *Mike, are you reading this thread? I hope so.
> 
> *[/FONT][/SIZE]Here is my first suggestion. :cornut:
> 
> ...



YES
I am reading this and VERY interested in it.
I agree with the first suggestion completely.
I have added two people to the office to take pressure off the web & photo imaging staff.
And one of my most important priorities for this winter is more pictues for the hot models.
Plus several bikes come in 2 or more colors - I want all color options up.

How do you like layout on Immortal Pro?

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/immortalpro_08.htm

thanks for taking an interest
Mike


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

sonex305 said:


> I have more ideas, but I will wait to see what others have to say. So, feel free to chime in with your suggestions. Anyone? Bueller?




I suggest they lose the "used car", "Haynes Furniture", "once in a lifetime" sales pitch. 

Besides that I would love to see all manufactures come up with a easy geometry dimension that would allow me to calculate bar drop vs a given seat height.


----------



## darbo (Dec 9, 2002)

i'd love to see them establish a forum on their website. That way, BD can do all their market research and new model hyping to an audience that is opting in, rather than doing all of those things on RBR, which used to be a safe haven from overt commercial ankle-flaunting. Not hating, just suggesting.


----------



## taikuodo (Aug 7, 2006)

1- cut the sales crap... you guys have good products, but the way you advertise them falsely gives you a bad reputation... List all the specifications of the components in detail, stating what year they are, etc. 
2-List average weights for medium frame size and stop quoting smallest frame size "nominal" lol..


----------



## Cfrone1 (Apr 26, 2006)

*Yup, what some of them said...*

I agree, the first thing they need to killl is the "compare @ $1599, on sale for $999." Anyone who knows anything knows it is a crock, and it lends an air of being uncredible, if not downright dishonest.

If the bike sells for $999, and isn't available anywhere else, then the MSRP is $999. Stop inflating the MSRP just to give an impression that it is on sale or worth more.

List the specs that the bike actually comes with. I have read a bunch of posts here over the last few months that the bike arrived with different parts than listed. Make sure it is up to date and correct.

More pictures are ALWAYS appreciated by anyone. I have never heard "Yeah, the site had TOO MUCH info." (This is meant in general, not the MB site in particular.)


----------



## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

Mike, I read some of your posts on other threads about races won by riders on Moto's. I think you should expand on this, include it in your advertising. The big name brands surely do. ADDED: And a congratulatory note to the winner(s), perhaps even a photo of the winners with their bikes.


----------



## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

Cfrone1 said:


> I agree, the first thing they need to killl is the "compare @ $1599, on sale for $999." Anyone who knows anything knows it is a crock, and it lends an air of being uncredible, if not downright dishonest.
> 
> If the bike sells for $999, and isn't available anywhere else, then the MSRP is $999. Stop inflating the MSRP just to give an impression that it is on sale or worth more.
> 
> ...


I agree the use of MSRP is misleading if in fact the bike is not sold anywhere for the MSRP price. This is not to pick on BD, many sellers of different products do this, and I would like to see it ended across the board. However, using something such as: "Other brand's similarly spec'd bikes sell for (place price range here)" is informative to the new buyer or someone getting back into cycling after many years. This is especially true for those who last cycled in the 60's or 70's (or so) and are now retiring. I believe some of these folks are looking at cycling again since they no longer have to spend all their time on career matters and raising families. And they have money to spend. I know BD is also trying to attract the young riders, but I am retired and look at it from that point.


----------



## tennis5 (Mar 12, 2007)

I'll give my 2 cents...

I like the photos on the Immortal Pro Mike...more photos would be even better. But I like the format and that you can click on the side pictures to make them larger format.

I agree with the other posters about list price as well. However, I also think (as stated by denmikseb) there is nothing wrong with stating "compare to this model" and perhaps link that to a "pop up" window that gives you the comparison between this model and a couple of mainstream models complete with specs and pricing...that is something most people can actually research and swallow rather than the "list price" which someone might consider inflated.

I would also like to see bike weights...perhaps on 3 frames in each model...the smallest, a medium sized, and the largest...particularly the largest since that is the one I would be riding...lol. 

I would also like to have customer service really get back to you with answers within 24-48 hours...this is the main complaint I have heard about BD and was the only problem I had. Mike, you were awesome and got back to me within 24 hours anytime I sent you a PM on here, but the CS was not good at getting back to me. Hopefully you have remedied that by adding the people in the office as you stated in this thread.

You're doing a great job Mike...keep up the good work! Thanks for listening...Chris


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> YES
> I am reading this and VERY interested in it.
> I agree with the first suggestion completely.
> I have added two people to the office to take pressure off the web & photo imaging staff.
> ...


Yup, the Immortal Pro page is much better condifering it offers more photos. We definately need to see more views of all the models so we can see exactly how things look. Since there are only a handful of Cycle Spectrum stores where people can see these bikes in person, the only thing we have to convince us to make a purchase with you is photos. Keep that in mind. I can drive down the road and see a Specialized Roubaix, Trak Madone or Giant OCR3, but I can't go look at a Moto Immortal ICE since the nearest Cycle Spectrum is waaaay too far away from me. So yes, the Pro page is close, but the theme here is MORE, MORE, MORE PHOTOS!:yikes:

Also, Mike, I agree completely with tennis5's ideas. Direct comparisons are great as opposed to generalized ones like "*COMPARE TO OTHER 20 SPEED **$3500 TO $5000+** DURA ACE MODELS" <-- Taken directly from your site.**:idea:*
*

*Also, tennis is unfortunately correct about contacting CS by email. The answers come too late and usually are too short and not very informative. Nothing a quick pep talk to your staff can't remedy, I think.

Keep the ideas coming everyone, especcially since we know Mike is listening. Good job Mike!:thumbsup:


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

I really appreciate the positive comments and interest in our site and bikes.
The growth of our sales is due to the support of those that are sincerely interested in quality bikes at aggressive prices.

We are making many changes in the next year. Of course, we will be taking ‘baby steps’ since the formula is working so well now.

In fact, our biggest issue is getting enough bikes quick enough. Even after doubling our warehouse space and staff this year; we still have a hard time restocking before we sell out in most models. And the growth of sales is now over 50% from references from current customers and legacy buyers.

That is what makes forecasting so difficult. We now have thousands of previous customers that are recommending us and buyers are coming straight to us. This adds to the legacy buyers who just want Motobecanes, Merciers, Dawes, Bottecchias, etc.
I track this as closely as I can thru site stats and email info. Advertising is still important; but the ‘built in’ sales this year already exceed all of 2006’s sales.

I still plan to improve the site, add new models, promote of amateur rider & team success; add the requested extra products, and so on. But I must admit it is hard to find the time when trying to keep up on product flow. 

I have lots of new bike ideas to follow up on, tons of clothing requests to try to find a proper supply to handle, several issues with staff to improve & expand, more warehouse space to find, and constant need to press factories to move up orders. It is hard to completely focus on making the site exactly as I would like it; when spending so much time trying to get more Hours, Nemesis, Immortal Spirit, Fantom Team, Cross & Cross Pro, 400HT, Mirage Pro, Knight, and about 20 other popular models we can not get in quick enough. {and it does not help that Shimano is now getting long on lead time again – all brands maybe a little short this year}

This is a 20 year project from my point of view. So far we are way ahead of schedule and I am very happy with the progress. By the time we get to 2023, I am sure many many things will be different. And I will continue to appreciate the constructive input I get – Thanks.

Mike


----------



## roy harley (Oct 22, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> YES
> I am reading this and VERY interested in it.
> I agree with the first suggestion completely.
> I have added two people to the office to take pressure off the web & photo imaging staff.
> ...


I have to say I am some time confussed with the long list of discription for a bike (is this one bike or 3 bikes I am reading????) and the differnet font sizes makes it even more confussing. 

I would like to see the current bike pictures with a 3/4 front and back picture to see all around the frame (seat stays and front fork). Maybe a little bit more blow up on the pictures too.

thanks!


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

Hey Mike. Another thought I had was about the paint jobs offered in your lineup. Not really a website suggestion, but no need to make another thread. 

One thing you should think about is offering more choices in colors for the various models that you sell. Yet another way to distance yourself from the competition, I would think. If you offered a few color choices for your bikes, I realize it would force you to have more inventory on hand, but the consumer would benifit greatly. For instance, I absolutely love the orange color offered on the Moto Sprint, but that isn't the bike I want. Just a thought. Keep up the good work.


----------



## dcdomain (Oct 6, 2006)

Mike,

Your web guys need to look into some of the ecommerce / shopping carts available. There are a few free ones that are great and the other good ones are all less than a grand. It would greatly improve your web presence.

In addition, a whole marketing / branding project would be a good thing to have. Just getting your website, banner ads, bikes and anything else looking the same (and good) would add so much credibility.

I second the suggestions about the Mike hosting his own forums. Actually I agree with all the other suggestions up top...


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Kestrel Photos

I think more photos are key for all buyers
that is what we hear most

We intend to put up lots on all bikes in gallary like this on Kestrel we are offering soon:
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/kestrel/images/rt_7_frame_fork/


----------



## roy harley (Oct 22, 2006)

Mike I think you need to get the fork in there too! I mean more photos of the fork. Photos are some of the best I have seen at BD!!


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

My thread lives again! That's exactly what you have for the Immortal ICE and I think it's great. Now just get photos of the other 60 or so bikes you offer and you'll be golden.


----------



## Peter_Klim (Oct 7, 2007)

1. Add a forum where only owners of BD bikes can post. Rules are that each post must contain a photo taken of the owners bike as well as the owner of the bike. It's purpose is to be a "listen to what these satified customers have to say!". It could also be a solution to the demand you are having for better/additional photos. It could be organized as a thread per model.

2. Not high on my list, but a seperate forum for anyone to post anything concerning BD bikes.

3. Weight of each frame and bike (with parts as advertised) for each size.

4. Geometry for each frame/size.

5. Like everyone else stated, get rid of the bogus retail prices. It doesn't really bother me because I am use to seeing it done by other companies and it doesn't fool me, but it's cheezy and seems to do nothing but tarnish your reputation. It also make people feel like they're not well educated as an informed consumer - its somewhat insulting. I don't think you've ever replied to anyone's comments in regards to this issue and why you do it. Is this what you mean by "taking ‘baby steps’ since the formula is working so well now." Is this part of the formula? Care to elaborate? Like I said before, it really didn't bother me and didn't make a difference in my purchase decision...but it did seem cheezy, so it made me think hard and research BD to see if it was a legit company. Some people may not be willing to take the time and decide to move on to another dealer/shop.

I have absolutely no complaints about my purchase from BD, nor about the merchandise I've aquired from them. I'm quite the happy camper!


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Peter_Klim said:


> 1. Add a forum where only owners of BD bikes can post. Rules are that each post must contain a photo taken of the owners bike as well as the owner of the bike. It's purpose is to be a "listen to what these satified customers have to say!". It could also be a solution to the demand you are having for better/additional photos. It could be organized as a thread per model.
> 
> 2. Not high on my list, but a seperate forum for anyone to post anything concerning BD bikes.
> 
> ...



Peter

Thanks for your post and your purchase
I am glad you are enjoying your bike

I would like to address the MSRP and Weight concerns you have
and I have actually posted answeers to that before
so I am just cutting and pasting those old posts here

FIRST: MSRP

"I agree with you; in a different world MSRP would be meaningless. That would be in a world of all bike enthusiasts like you and I. By in the big market place there are lots of ‘normal’ people who want a nice bike. They do not read specs like you and I do.

The casual cyclist who has lots of other stuff going on demands MSRP. We get e-mails all the time asking if 105 is better than Ultegra and similar questions that seem straight forward to most people on this board. These shoppers demand to know MSRP.

Years ago, before I was involved in the internet, I sold GT in lots of my shops. This was before GT was owned by Schwinn. GT was a leader in getting bike info on the net. After about 3 months of running their site without Prices they added MSRP.

I was shocked at this, being new to the net and understanding in the past dealers had set their own prices. I ask the national sales manager. He said they had no choice. Everyday they got hundreds of e-mails and 2/3 were asking the exact same question. What is the price of the model X? Which is better, model X or Y? Is Model Y more money than Model Z? and worse – WHY THE HELL DON’T YOU POST YOUR PRICES?

Once GT posted MSRP, the work was less and customers were way happier. Win Win situation. A deal you always hear about but do not see that often.

Each of our sites gets lots of e-mails each day. The Motobecane site gets hundreds and hundreds a day. We are very busy answering e-mails. If we took the MSRP off our sites the e-mail traffic would triple – mostly with questions that can be answered by having the MSRP on the bikes.

Plus Fuji, Trek, Specialized, Bianchi, Felt, Giant and our other direct competitors post MSRP. So customers would have a reason to be mad at us if we stopped posting that info."

NEXT WEIGHT:

"I can build bikes to compete with anyone on weight and come out looking great. I love building light bikes.

But quoting weights is a real problem. I would love it on each bike but there are several issues. I hate bringing these up; as it sounds like the blame game.

First, when other makers do not publish weights -- customers tend to rely on stores. Unfortunately lots of sales people in stores just make up weights. In 30 years I have heard of stock 10 and 12 lb bikes hundreds of times. But of course I have never seen these bikes.
Customer goes in a shop; gets shown let's say model 1000; Customer -"wow, that's a nice bike - how much does it weigh?" -- -- Salesman - 'Hey, just pick it up, this bike is barely 12 lbs, my dad hooked a bass that was heavier than this!'
No way we can compete with that. Not even with the fish.

Second, all bikes weigh different amounts - even the same models. sizes, production runs, reflectors or not, with ot without pedals. So customers who are quoted 17.7 lbs and get a bike that is 17.9 may or may not be mad.

Third, there is a long history of some bike companies printing in catalogs outrageously low weights. And who can blame or stop them. I guess since they are gone it is OK to say that the old Schwinn company was famous for that [no reflection on the current owners of Schwinn].

I wish the industry had a standard to weigh and print weights on all models. However, I am not big enough to push that and the advantage of doing this would go to the smaller companies. So you can not expect big names would be generally behind it. "

Now if you look at our main competitors:
Trek posts prices - no weights
Cannondale posts weights - no prices
Specialized - prices - no weights
Giant - prices - no weights
Raleigh -- neither
so on


Now consider bike comparisons by magazines:
We just had the Immortal ICE reveiwed by Road Bike Action: 'they said as part of the reveiw in which they tested and weighed the bike themselves -- *"surprising affordable $3095, with weight at 16.5 pounds"*
Why? - well look at the Trek 6.5 Pro at $5899.99 or Specialized Tarmac Expert Ultegra at $3000 --- easy to agrue the IM ICE has better equipment. Here is the problem; you can not state the MSRP on an Immortal Ice is $1795 - it is unrealiztic and magazines will never review it. The MSRP of the Shimano alone is $1750 -- how can you put the bike at $1795? What could a magazine say about an Immortal ICE if we said the list was $1795? And how would they explain that to their other advertisers?

People who want MSRP should look at them
People who think they are bunk should ignore them on all brands and focus on specs 
I love it when people compare spec to spec - it would be a dream come true for me if all bike purchases were based on best spec for the money [except I copuld never get enough bikes]

I hope in the future the internet will create pressure that results in all bikes companies posting price, weight, & country of origin on all bikes


----------



## roy harley (Oct 22, 2006)

I don't have any problems with MSRP and weight I read with a grain of salt. What I would like to see you do is throw up comparisons of BD bikes to brands XYZ and ABC bike and list the components side by side with your BD bike offerings. This is where you can make it a no brainier choice when you put your offerings next to your competitions and you beat them on the price for the same build up. I think it will also help people get over the fact that Motobecane are not as popular as the Giants, Treks, Specialized, ect.


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

> We just had the Immortal ICE reveiwed by Road Bike Action: 'they said as part of the reveiw in which they tested and weighed the bike themselves -- *"surprising affordable $3095, with weight at 16.5 pounds"*
> Why? - well look at the Trek 6.5 Pro at $5899.99 or Specialized Tarmac Expert Ultegra at $3000 --- easy to agrue the IM ICE has better equipment. Here is the problem; you can not state the MSRP on an Immortal Ice is $1795 - it is unrealiztic and magazines will never review it. The MSRP of the Shimano alone is $1750 -- how can you put the bike at $1795? What could a magazine say about an Immortal ICE if we said the list was $1795? And how would they explain that to their other advertisers?


Mike, this is a great answer and one I personally never thought of. I never complained about the MSRP since I never really cared, but this answer makes perfect sense, IMHO.


----------



## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> ...Here is the problem; you can not state the MSRP on an Immortal Ice is $1795 - it is unrealiztic and magazines will never review it. The MSRP of the Shimano alone is $1750 -- how can you put the bike at $1795? What could a magazine say about an Immortal ICE if we said the list was $1795? And how would they explain that to their other advertisers?
> 
> People who want MSRP should look at them
> People who think they are bunk should ignore them on all brands and focus on specs
> I love it when people compare spec to spec - it would be a dream come true for me if all bike purchases were based on best spec for the money [except I copuld never get enough bikes]...


I do not want to come across as negative, but I'm sure this post will be percevied as such. Note that I do own a Motobecane, but do not recommend them to others, based on the company ethics.

As far as the explanation above, do I understand correctly that the reason that BD lists dishonest inflated MSRPs because magazines would not review them otherwise? If BD already sells out all stock through word-of-mouth, why would anybody care if there was a magazine reviewing BD product or not? Have you considered how many sales are lost through word-of-mouth bashing because of the unethical MSRPs?

The MSRP question was answered by a business-driven motivation. Perhaps there is a sound business logic behind it. BUT it doesn't stop the practice from being dishonest, and therefore it's still not right. Simply listing the true selling price as the msrp in the BD adverts and adding text (as many have suggested) comparing BD's product with competitors would resolve this issue.

Until that time, I will continue to warn people against buying from an unethical company.

_People who want MSRP should look at them
People who think they are bunk should ignore them on all brands and focus on specs _

That is not an answer to the question. People who want MSRP want it for a reason - giving an inflated number is a lie. People that think they are bunk do ignore them and focus on specs.

Alright, this post came out more negative that it was originally intended, but I think it demonstrates how passionate people can be about dishonesty.

[end rant]


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

> _BD lists dishonest inflated MSRPs
> an unethical company
> giving an inflated number is a lie
> how passionate people can be about dishonesty
> because of the unethical MSRPs_



Geez, I will start my post by saying I don't want to sound negative, but I will anyway. 

Unethical and dishonest? Come on man, get over yourself. That is so stupid it's not even funny any more. Based on your reasoning, every company that ever listed an MSRP is unethical unless it's the same price? Hmmmmmmm...

I just went to Trek's website to look at the Madone 5.2 Pro. The MSRP is listed at $3629.99 and yet I was at my LBS a few days ago and they had the exact same bike for $2899.99. That's a $730.00 difference which means that Trek "._..lists dishonest inflated MSRPs_". So, that must make them unethical since ".._.giving an inflated number is a lie_", according to you.

Another line I read while perusing Trek's site is this; "_Utilizes the inherent vibration damping qualities of OCLV to deliver *just the right amount of road feedback* to keep __*YOU* in-tune with the road._" This was under "Madone basics" and is used to describe the bike. How does Trek know what *I* feel is "_...just the right amount of road feedback to keep you in-tune with the road_"? They don't, which must mean that "._..based on the company ethics_", Trek is lying to me, according to you. I can only assume at this point that Trek is an unethical, dishonest comany and "_I will continue to warn people against buying from an unethical company._"



> _Note that I do own a Motobecane, but do not recommend them to others, based on the company ethics._


Here's a recommendation; sell your Motobecane so you will no longer be associated in any way with the evil empire that is BD. Oh, and don't go away mad, just go away.


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Why the personal attacks?(it's against forum guidelines) 

Chiliconcarnage gave his opinion...That is what this forum is about....This forum isn't meant to be a lovefest for BD..It's an exchange of ideas and opinions.....People disagree all the time...,..

as for the MSRP... I owned a Windsor the Hour.. I paid the permanent sale price of $299.00.

Was the bike worth $299?...Absolutely... Did it compare with $500 fixies? Nope...It wasn't even close....

So bottom line for me, I got exactly what I paid for...I didn't get a great deal but I didn't get taken either...


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

ChilliConCarnage said:


> I do not want to come across as negative, but I'm sure this post will be percevied as such. Note that I do own a Motobecane, but do not recommend them to others, based on the company ethics.
> 
> As far as the explanation above, do I understand correctly that the reason that BD lists dishonest inflated MSRPs because magazines would not review them otherwise? If BD already sells out all stock through word-of-mouth, why would anybody care if there was a magazine reviewing BD product or not? Have you considered how many sales are lost through word-of-mouth bashing because of the unethical MSRPs?
> 
> ...



It is not dishonest for a company to have MSRP - that just makes no sense.
This is not anm issue for our customers. And we can not reach my goals for Motobecane without providing customers with what they expect. Customers want MSRP on brand sites - period. Just ask those that ry to get by without posting them. They are covered up in e-mails complaining about it.

Even though Cannondale does not post MSRP - they post a reason why they do not and that still makes customers made. Trek, Fuji, Specialized, Giant all post MSRP - that makes it hard for us not to [even if we thought MSRP should not be posted -- which we do not]

I look at cars all the time online - I like cars. If there was no MSRP on a site; I would be really mad about that. I have never paid MSRP for a car; but I want to know what the heck it is. So do our customers. And most our MSRPs are too low according to others in the industry.

Here: we are about to come out with a Ti / Sid / XTR sub 21 lb hardtail. Litespeed has a Ti XTR hardtail that is 23 lbs and $5500 MSRP - what should our MSRP be??

Bianchi Pista is $650 MSRP - how much should Mercier Kilo TT be? I say the Kilo is a better bike for several reasons - many agree. an opinion; but MSRP ?

Mercier Serpens 853 is FULL ULTEGRA TRIPLE with Ritchey Pro wheels and cockpit and Ouzo fork. What sould MSRP be on a bike with $300 MSRP fork, $950 MSRP of Shimano, $650 of Ritchey at MSRP. Plus a 853 frame -- what can MSRP be?

this is an impossible situation is if the standard is: eliminate useful information that customers really want in order to make a small number of people who think that info is not needed happy.

I still think solution is:

People who think specs tell the whole story - do not look at MSRP on ANYONE's SITE or in any magazine.

People who feel MSRP is valuable information; look at it - but consider other factors too; like specs.

I do not think we can continue to sell to the public or to dealers without providing this requested info to all. But I guess if every other brand dropped MSRP from their sites; I would need to consider its usefulness. But as long as Trek, Specialized, and Giant have it; customers will expect it from us.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> as for the MSRP... I owned a Windsor the Hour.. I paid the permanent sale price of $299.00.
> 
> Was the bike worth $299?...Absolutely... Did it compare with $500 fixies? Nope...It wasn't even close....
> 
> So bottom line for me, I got exactly what I paid for...I didn't get a great deal but I didn't get taken either...


Dave - you have shocked me again.
You e-mailed me and told me you could not get a better track bike in a store for twice the price!! Do you not recall that?

What about the Fuji Track - are you saying at the time you purchased The Hour that Fuji track was not worth the over $500 Fuji dealers were selling it for?

http://www.fujibikes.com/2006/bikes.asp?id=139

And Fuji is a LBS value leader. People buy Fujis everyday over other brands due to the high spec and quality of Fuji relative to price.

To say The Hour is not even close to track bikes that sell for $500 is very unfair to say the least. I can not believe it!


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Mike, come on....What is worng with saying the bike is worth what I paid for it? 

As I said The Hour is a fine $300 bike....It's not a $500 bike....I rode the bike for almost a year.....If someone wants a cheap fixed, The Hour is a good choice but it's not on par with $500 fixies...

That is _*my*_ opinion.....based on riding(and owning) more fixed gears bikes than just about anyone on this forum..


----------



## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Why the personal attacks?(it's against forum guidelines)
> 
> Chiliconcarnage gave his opinion...That is what this forum is about....This forum isn't meant to be a lovefest for BD..It's an exchange of ideas and opinions.....People disagree all the time...


That's ok Dave. I've seen other people slam Sonex for being a fanboy cheerleader. But his opinion means less than nothing to me, so i don't mind him voicing his opinion, even if it was in a very childish manner.

Incidentally, MSRP = Mfg. Suggested Retail Price. Since BD has never suggested to anybody that they sell their bike at this price, it is a lie. Period. If I walk into a Trek dealer, they will often have Treks at exactly the MSRP. 

The most important thing here is that listing (and not just listing, but being the entire basis of their advertising) an MSRP is giving the implication that the buyer is getting in on a super-special-limited-time-factory-buyout-once-in-a-lifetime deal. That is a lie. Period. And it's done on purpose to snag the bargain hunter into buying their bikes. And a company lying like that is unethical. Supporting blatantly unethical companies may not matter to you, but then that's how you roll. Others have higher values. For those people with thicker moral fiber, being forewarned is being forearmed. Many people let their principles swerve their buying decisions, from not buying Chinese-made bikes because they disagree with China's politics, to not buying tuna fish that may have resulted in dead dolphins.

As I said above, my Fantom Pro is a fine bike, and suits its purpose, and was probably a pretty good deal to the original purchaser - except that it was too big for him (another problem with buying from a online company with a reputation for bad customer-service ). Being too big, he stripped the parts, bought another frame, and built up another bike. Thus, I was able to buy it as a frame/fork in new condition for very cheap. 

My point is - it's a good bike. If BD was simply honest and ethical and threw away their used-car-dealership mentality they would still be able to sell their bikes, since they are fine bikes at reasonable prices. But they choose not to.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Mike, come on....What is worng with saying the bike is worth what I paid for it?
> 
> As I said The Hour is a fine $300 bike....It's not a $500 bike....I rode the bike for almost a year.....If someone wants a cheap fixed, The Hour is a good choice but it's not on par with $500 fixies...That is _*my*_ opinion.....based on riding more fixed gears bikes than just about anyone on this forum


Dave
I know someone on this forum that may have riden more fixed geared bikes

And what is wrong with your statement is it is wrong and misleading.

The Hour is worth $500 in a LBS and bikes with the same spec are sold in LBS at $500 alkl the time and you know it. I think myou know exactly what The Hour is and where it came from. You know the same exact bike was sold by dealers all over the USA for $500 and even more. In the northeast that exact bike got up to $600 in shops frequently. Are you saying that all those dealkers that sold bikes like that are dishonest?

It just makes no sense to me.

The value of a track bike is not determined by the sticker on the DT


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Dave
> I know someone on this forum that may have riden more fixed geared bikes
> 
> And what is wrong with your statement is it is wrong and misleading.
> ...


I stand by my opinion.....There is absolutely nothing misleading in what I said....I have no ax to grind and I have no vested interest one way or another.........


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

ChilliConCarnage said:


> Incidentally, MSRP = Mfg. Suggested Retail Price. Since BD has never suggested to anybody that they sell their bike at this price, it is a lie. Period. If I walk into a Trek dealer, they will often have Treks at exactly the MSRP.
> 
> .



we have suggested prices to dozens of dealers
such as http://www.discoverycycle.com/

and our dealer base will grow as quickly as we can get enough stock to satisfiy our direct customer demand.

we get dealer inquires all the time; we just have a hard time opening more when we sell out to customers such as yourselve as quickly as we do

I have stated many times; I have a long term Motobecane plan in detail thru 2023
and there will be dealers in all 50 states way before we reach that date.

I have been doing this 30 years and I am beyond getting in a hurry. I am taking my time; but the system is running several years ahead of my plan; so I am feeling I need more help or less demand. Double warehouse and staff this year; still behind with direct customers, so dealers have to wait besides the ones we already have.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> I stand by my opinion.....There is absolutely nothing misleading in what I said....I have no ax to grind and I have no vested interest one way or another.........


All the dealers that sold Fuji Tracks for $500 or more stand behind their actions, I am sure. And your statement indicates they way overcharged. I think that is unfair.

I am glad you have no vested interest; but I do have an interest in facts being straight about my products. The Hour is more than 'close' to many $500 tracvk bikes sold in LBS. And better than some $500 track bikes sold in some LBS.

Prices in your area {DFW} have been a bit lower than in other regions of the country. But track bikes are sold all over - and the northeast has always been the strongest area. Prices in the NE are higher than DFW and LOTS of people pay over $500 for track bikes that are not a bit better than The Hour. Period - that is a fact!

But I do need to thank you for pointing out how much you liked the Schwinn track from China and how it does not matter where it is made. That bike lists for $540 I think. I have the specs and price back already; and have already ordered a new Dawes SST which will be $299 and just a bit better spec.. Including I ordered that nice blue, plus a black and a green. Great idea. Thanks


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Mike, you always want to have the last word so I'll let you have it....


----------



## roy harley (Oct 22, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Why the personal attacks?(it's against forum guidelines)
> 
> Chiliconcarnage gave his opinion...That is what this forum is about....This forum isn't meant to be a lovefest for BD..It's an exchange of ideas and opinions.....People disagree all the time...,..
> 
> ...



When your talking about a $300 dollar bike there isn't much margin there to place that bike up to a $500 bike. Now when you compare a $2200 bike to a $5500 then there.....wait this is based of of MSRP's so I guess what I wanted to say won't mean Sh!t... carry on....


----------



## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> It is not dishonest for a company to have MSRP - that just makes no sense..


*I didn't say it was dishonest to have an MSRP.* I said (and many, many, many others have said) that the *artificially inflated MSRP *is misleading and unethical. You sell your bikes at a certain price - and *make up another number * in your advertising so that the potential (but unknowledgeable) buyer will make a comparison with other brands bikes in the higher price range, leading them to the conclusion that you offer a similar bike but at a better price. I have no problem with the fact that you offer a comparitively better value for the same bike. But why do you have to use a dishonest made-up number to lead them to that comparison?

Why not state clearly: "Fantom Cyclocross , MSRP $799, compare to Fuji Cross Pro at MSRP $1299"? It's honest, it gives the people the real MSRP that *they actually want*, it demonstrates your value position, and it helps the potential buyer do research on competing models that are priced higher than yours. If you would switch your marketing to be more like that, I personally would sing BD's praises from the rooftops.



bikesdirect said:


> Here: we are about to come out with a Ti / Sid / XTR sub 21 lb hardtail. Litespeed has a Ti XTR hardtail that is 23 lbs and $5500 MSRP - what should our MSRP be??..


That's easy. Your MSRP should be whatever your sellng price will be - which I can assume will be lower than $5500 - with big lettering on your marketing that compares it to the Litespeed with an MSRP of $5500 to show what an outstanding value you are offering. Isn't that what you want to show? Won't people in this country generally choose the lower priced item? You don't have to mislead them to make Americans choose the value option.

The term like "MSRP" creates certain implications that are not true. It's like the furniture stores around that have a "Prices slashed 50%" signs outside - 24/7, 365 days a year. Their price have always been what they were - there is no actual sale. It's dishonest. It's the tactic most often associated with unscrupulous used-car dealers. Why do you insist on using a dishonest tactic when there are honest ways to do the same thing?

You DO offer a good value. Let people know that, and they will still buy from you. Then there will be no more reason for people to ***** about BD on this or any of the other forums or to the BBB.

Thanks for listening.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

ChilliConCarnage
Your MSRP should be whatever your sellng price will be -
Thanks for listening.[/QUOTE said:


> Oh
> I see the confusion now
> 
> You think only BD sells Motobecanes.
> ...


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

roy harley said:


> When your talking about a $300 dollar bike there isn't much margin there to place that bike up to a $500 bike. Now when you compare a $2200 bike to a $5500 then there.....wait this is based of of MSRP's so I guess what I wanted to say won't mean Sh!t... carry on....



In the end I don't think the MRSP thing is that big of a deal. Mike makes a pretty good case in support of them.

It is his MRSP along with all the other "Used car" tactics in his add copy.


----------



## moab63 (Aug 7, 2006)

*Well I have to agree about the LBS bikes(cost)*



bikesdirect said:


> All the dealers that sold Fuji Tracks for $500 or more stand behind their actions, I am sure. And your statement indicates they way overcharged. I think that is unfair.
> 
> I am glad you have no vested interest; but I do have an interest in facts being straight about my products. The Hour is more than 'close' to many $500 tracvk bikes sold in LBS. And better than some $500 track bikes sold in some LBS.


I stopped at all LBS in San Diego, and first of all there was no selection of track bikes. The only thing I could find was the bianchi pista, which is made in Taiwan, no name components with an out the door price of almost 600.00 dollars. 

So I got my son the messenger(with brakes), for almost half the money. After many races and training rides the bike needs nothing. I took it to my LBS for a checkup and the wheels didn't even need trueing.
My next Bike is a kilo for me, for 2008.
And I just bought locally and brand new inmortal, at even a better price. The bike is unreal for the money.

I know is not a namebrand"bike"hey but is made in taiwan like the other namebrand bikes are. Also it has the same grupos, wheels and misc, components but it cost me almost 3k less. So mike keep at it.

I think that " MSRP" should at a minimum reflect the retail price of all the components and labor to assemble it, plus any overhead cost. I don't see how that can be consider dishonest. There is were the real value lies.

If you can get some quality components(frame) included , but about 50% off what a similar bike would cost you it should be clearly stated.

BD is not selling you a no brand grupo ,wheels and misc stuff. They are selling you the same components that you can walk down to your LBS an buy. Have you guys priced this stuff lately.
Anyway enough rambling
I get a little excited because I sell retail, hell I even sold new and used cars , so I now about value, retail and selling. Most normal consumer want numbers with anything they buy.:thumbsup:


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

Well said moab. The problem is, I don't think any amount of rational arguments will change his mind and convince him to quit making, IMO, false and harmful accusations against Mike that are completely irrational and, frankly, sound just plain dumb. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that I agree with. 

My opinion: Chilli is totally wrong on this one.

BTW, "fanboy cheerleader"??? Is that the best you can do? Did you think of that one all by yourself? Hmmm?? How long did that take to come up with?? Spend some real time wondering how best to put me down?? Niiiiiiiiiiice...



> That's ok Dave. I've seen other people slam Sonex for being a fanboy cheerleader.


Oh, hey Mod, nice double standard here in this forum. I think you have made it clear where you stand. The "...exchange of opinions and ideas" is ok, as long as it involves bashing BD and anybody that supports them.


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

sonex305 said:


> Oh, hey Mod, nice double standard here in this forum. I think you have made it clear where you stand. The "...exchange of opinions and ideas" is ok, as long as it involves bashing BD and anybody that supports them.


Explain how I bashed BD? I didn't have one negative thing to say....Here is what I said

_as for the MSRP... I owned a Windsor the Hour.. I paid the permanent sale price of $299.00.

Was the bike worth $299?...Absolutely... Did it compare with $500 fixies? Nope...It wasn't even close....

So bottom line for me, I got exactly what I paid for...I didn't get a great deal but I didn't get taken either..._

and

_"Mike, come on....What is wrong with saying the bike is worth what I paid for it? 

As I said The Hour is a fine $300 bike....It's not a $500 bike....I rode the bike for almost a year.....If someone wants a cheap fixed, The Hour is a good choice but it's not on par with $500 fixies...

That is my opinion.....based on riding(and owning) more fixed gears bikes than just about anyone on this forum.."_



Saying a bike is worth what I paid for it is bashing BD?


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Explain how I bashed BD? I didn't have one negative thing to say....Here is what I said
> 
> _as for the MSRP... I owned a Windsor the Hour.. I paid the permanent sale price of $299.00.
> 
> ...



You bashed BD by the starement in bold
that simple
THE HOUR does compare with $500 fixies - you said it was not even close
that is plain wrong AND worse - YOU KNOW IT
not only did the bike you got compare with $500 fixties - it was the exact same as other fixties selling for $500 and up all over the USA at the time. Plus - you e-mailed me personally and said you could not get a better bike for twice that.

Your post is just out of line and wrong

I am sorry you do not want to understand the advatages of direct marketing. Before you even bought The Hour you had posted it was not possable to save 40% to 50% on bikes being sold direct online. That is wrong too. {I could post 20 examples right now] Then you post that a Kilo TT is not as good of a deal as a Schwinn from China that has a cheaper frame & hubs & fixed cog. I just do not get it - really. You are a smart guy and should know better.
My feeling is: you have a bais to LBS - that simple. I could be wrong but it sure looks like that.


----------



## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

So, if you say they're close in quality, it's fact (even though you're biased) but if someone says that the bike's aren't then people are attacking you. That makes complete sense.


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

Dave, I never claimed that you bashed BD. Not the point I tried to make at all. I give up. :nonod:

Another opinion, I think this thread should be closed since it has fallen so far from the original topic. I don't think we are doing any good by complaining and accusing each other over and over.(yes, myself included) 

When I originally created this thread, I actually tried to do some good and provide an avenue for those of us that do business with Mike to voice our opinion about the BD website. As with so many threads about BD, it has gone horribly awry.:mad2:


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Henry Porter said:


> So, if you say they're close in quality, it's fact (even though you're biased) but if someone says that the bike's aren't then people are attacking you. That makes complete sense.


Henry
I am talking about comparing two bikes that are exactly the same from same factory with same spec and different decals. This is what is maddening

Plus when you know the OEM cost of items [like a 4130 frame from china vs a 520 frame from taiwan OR a DuraAce fixed cog vs a chinesse formula cog] it is insulting when someone who should know better makes false comparisons.

I read incorrect statements about our bikes and other vendors bikes all the time. Most are from people who just do not know and are confused. Of course, you gotta just let that slide. Some newbie posts that Acera is better than Deore - what the heck - who cares - he is just ill informed. That is not what is going on here.

I have already thanked Dave for his comment on the Schwinn and even followed up by getting the same spec bike on order --- bottom line it cost me right at $40 less than a Kilo TT -- I know why and I think anyone who looks close will too. The SST that is that spec i can sell for $299 -- whereas the Kilo TT has to be $50 more -- WHY? It costs more due to higher level spec - period simple. Do I think the $299 SST will reduce our Kilo TT sales? Heck no; we sell every Kilo TT we can get and have done so for the last 5 years.

In fact, I am bringing a more expensive Kilo TT Pro with sugino, Platinum OX tubing, top level rims with eyelets, etc -- for those that can see the difference in higher level spec.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

sonex305 said:


> Dave, I never claimed that you bashed BD. Not the point I tried to make at all. I give up. :nonod:
> 
> Another opinion, I think this thread should be closed since it has fallen so far from the original topic. I don't think we are doing any good by complaining and accusing each other over and over.(yes, myself included)
> 
> When I originally created this thread, I actually tried to do some good and provide an avenue for those of us that do business with Mike to voice our opinion about the BD website. As with so many threads about BD, it has gone horribly awry.:mad2:


You are completely correct! this thread has gone awry

But I do appreciate your interest in the business. As you know I am working on improving the BD site. All brands sites will be improved too. And by late next year I will open a new URL with differnt brands, different presentation, 800# phone, different staff and warehouse.

This will address many customers that BD may miss due to site layout, selection, and other issues.


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> You bashed BD by the starement in bold
> that simple
> THE HOUR does compare with $500 fixies - you said it was not even close
> that is plain wrong AND worse - YOU KNOW IT
> ...


have a nice day Mike....I'll let you once again have the last word........and by the way, I have never bought a bike at an LBS in my life...


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

sonex305 said:


> As with so many threads about BD, it has gone horribly awry.:mad2:



This has to be a sign of something.


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

I agree, but I'm guessing not for the same reason.


----------



## tennis5 (Mar 12, 2007)

Dave Hickey said:


> Explain how I bashed BD? I didn't have one negative thing to say....


I dont know about bashing in the moto forum, but I know the following quote certainly didnt help matters in the lounge in which us BD supporters were flamed and called morons...quote by you (Dave) was: 
"But I'll bet the shills are back.....The 2008 models are out and every model has some type of thread...most are by first time posters...The fixed forum had a thread from April resurrected by a first time poster...same stuff.different day..."

another anti BD post by you poking fun:
"long time boater, first time kayaker..I found a great deal at kayaksdirect.com. It's seems like a best value out there. But the communcation was great and it arrived well packed.. I took it to my local West Marine to have them set it up for me...I figure I saved hundreds buying online vs my LKS. I'd post a picture but I don't own a digital camera"


The latter post also got people involved bashing us again, and eventually got even my screen name dragged into it. I didnt respond to it because I am trying to remain above that tactic and just realize these guys like to slam others to make themselves feel better. But I am not sure why you as a Mod get involved in it. I frequent the Lounge because I enjoy some of the entertaining posts, but I certainly dont feel welcome there as I have been personally bashed by several guys there.

...the guys in the lounge love it when a mod makes this kind of a comment...kind of gives them open season on us and there are several other posts made that indicates your opinion of us. As I have said before, I can afford any of the bikes those guys ride...I simply choose not to. So, does riding a different bike with a different name brand make me a loser or a shill? I think not...just wanted something that was a nice riding bike that allowed me to get into road biking without spending 3k. I have been accused of being a shill by people who have less posts than I do. Again, the purpose for this forum... whether in the Moto forum or the Lounge or Hot Deals...should be about getting more people to ride and helping people who want information...not running posters off the forum. Just because someone comes on here and posts their first post about a Moto doesnt mean they are a shill. My first post was in the Moto forum and I was accused of being a shill...actually almost made me quit the forum because of the bad taste i got from it. But a lot of people lurk before they post...and a lot of them have learned they need to post a preface post of something to the effect of "I will probably get bashed for making my first post about a Motobecane"....I think that is sad and a reflection of how some people on here believe they are elite ...again, pitiful and an obvious statement of an underlying personality or childhood problem (feeling they need to bash us). 

BD made some mistakes in the past...Mike has fessed up and has since told employees not to exhibit that behavior...let by gones be by gones and let it rest. Ripping solves nothing and only incites more issues...Mods should be here to keep the peace, not incite ripping...my 2 cents. Thanks for reading...


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Tennis5, my role as moderator is strictly limited to the fixed and retro forum...In any other forum, I'm just like everyone else....I still believe that RBR has shills or people being asked my BD to post reviews. Once again, it's my opinion as a RBR poster not a moderator...


----------



## Oversane (Mar 31, 2007)

Stop. Pointless. Useless. Waste of time. The people who hate BD are just haters. They hate many other things and bash when and where they can. That's their nature. Forget about them and move on.


----------



## tennis5 (Mar 12, 2007)

Dave Hickey said:


> Tennis5, my role as moderator is strictly limited to the fixed and retro forum...In any other forum, I'm just like everyone else....I still believe that RBR has shills or people being asked my BD to post reviews. Once again, it's my opinion as a RBR poster not a moderator...


I understand that, but I think my role as a member is to help others and make them feel welcome...regardless of whether they are a shill or a legit new member...I would assume god would be the only one that knows the true difference...so I try to be helpful no matter what...but that is just me.


----------



## Oversane (Mar 31, 2007)

Dave Hickey said:


> In any other forum, I'm just like everyone else....I still believe that RBR has shills or people being asked my BD to post reviews. Once again, it's my opinion as a RBR poster not a moderator...


Dave, if you believe there are shills on this forum, then you must also believe there are shills on other RBR forums as well. Do you make it your business to 'out' those other shills or do you just specialize in 'outing' the shills on the BD/Moto forum?

What kind of training do you have that qualifies you in your role of indentifying shills? Is this particular training available to others?


----------



## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

There is not another group of posters that defends a certain brand so vehemently. People have their preferences and there are a couple of people that only love certain companies but by just looking at how many of you guys bleed BD, it's pretty obvious there is a plan to shill for them.


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

Henry, that is just wrong and I think you know it. Nobody else needs to defend their position because nobody else is treated so poorly. Have you ever seen a first time poster in the Cervelo forum get flamed for saying they like their ride? Didn't think so.


----------



## tennis5 (Mar 12, 2007)

Henry Porter said:


> There is not another group of posters that defends a certain brand so vehemently. People have their preferences and there are a couple of people that only love certain companies but by just looking at how many of you guys bleed BD, it's pretty obvious there is a plan to shill for them.


Please please please let me in on "the plan" so I can start adhering to "the plan"....LOL...just plain laughable. The plan is the bikes work, accomplish the goal of a good value for the $...period. dont knock it til you try it...and what Sonex said...we get bashed like no one else...mostly by non-owners of BD products...so we defend ourselves.


----------



## Oversane (Mar 31, 2007)

Henry Porter said:


> There is not another group of posters that defends a certain brand so vehemently. People have their preferences and there are a couple of people that only love certain companies but by just looking at how many of you guys bleed BD, it's pretty obvious there is a plan to shill for them.


There is not another group of posters who have to defend their brands. As sonex pointed out, who else gets bashed? No one. No other manufacturer's forum has any locked threads. Why is that?

As far as BD, screw em'. I think they drop the ball in a couple of areas. They should know and post the weights of their bikes. They should know and post the exact specs and components of their bikes. My Le Champion came with a different cassette than advertised but I didn't even realize that for a year because I'm a newbie to road bikes. I live in an area surrounded by mountains and I decided to switch to a 12/27 and only then did I realize that the cassette I had on was different than the one advertised. So screw em' for that substitution.

And why do you bother to read or post on this forum? Have you ever bought a bike from BD or one of their other outlets? Why do you care? And what skills do you have in identifying shills. I just want to know that.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Tennis5, my role as moderator is strictly limited to the fixed and retro forum...In any other forum, I'm just like everyone else....I still believe that RBR has shills or people being asked my BD to post reviews. Once again, it's my opinion as a RBR poster not a moderator...


One more of your beleifs that is totally wrong!
This one does not surprise me; what does surprise me is lack of knowledge about fixie specs, pricing, and market in general
My guess is you are unware of which brands sell the most SS/Track bikes and at what price points. This of course, may not matter unless you are posting statements about how much a given bike is worth.


----------



## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

Oversane said:


> There is not another group of posters who have to defend their brands. As sonex pointed out, who else gets bashed? No one. No other manufacturer's forum has any locked threads. Why is that?


Because they have a history of shilling. Even the BD guy admits that employees in the past have done it here (and it's safe to assume it's continued by the posting history of some people here). That's why people in the know don't believe all this positive praise from all these new members. 



Oversane said:


> And why do you bother to read or post on this forum? Have you ever bought a bike from BD or one of their other outlets? Why do you care? And what skills do you have in identifying shills. I just want to know that.


I was sick of studying the metabolic steps of the Pentose Phosphate Shunt and last I checked you could post where you wanted to. 

No, I haven't bought one since I don't support dishonest businesses. It doesn't take skills to identify what's going on but just a critical eye when all these newer members take such a personal insult when people criticize a business. I ride a Specialized Tarmac I bought from my LBS and I'm really happy with it. While I think it's safe to say I'm emotionally attached to my bike, I don't take it personally when people say something critical of Specialized. Of course, I don't get a check from Specialized either...


----------



## Oversane (Mar 31, 2007)

Henry Porter said:


> Because they have a history of shilling. Even the BD guy admits that employees in the past have done it here (and it's safe to assume it's continued by the posting history of some people here). That's why people in the know don't believe all this positive praise from all these new members.
> 
> No, I haven't bought one since I don't support dishonest businesses. It doesn't take skills to identify what's going on but just a critical eye when all these newer members take such a personal insult when people criticize a business. .


Henry, I'm not a new poster. I've been over the flames before. My previous poster name was tsalconoci4891. I got tired of typing that backwards all the time so I changed my poster name but you can look through the posts here and see several of my old posts from summer of 06'.

And I am aware that BD admitted that employees had been posting here. I remember it and if you were a bit smarter you could have found the thread where Mike details what he did once he was made aware of that. But why would you bother? It's too much fun beating that dead horse, isn't it? Now Mike posts for BD and as far as I can tell he's the only one from BD that posts. And he is a shill but he kinda has a right to do so. He does advertise here. The guy from Ibex posts here. Do you 'out' him as a shill I mean, after all, he is shilling for Ibex. 

Oh, and I'd watch who you call dishonest unless of course you can back that up with hard evidence.


----------



## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

Oversane said:


> Henry, I'm not a new poster. I've been over the flames before. My previous poster name was tsalconoci4891. I got tired of typing that backwards all the time so I changed my poster name but you can look through the posts here and see several of my old posts from summer of 06'.
> 
> And I am aware that BD admitted that employees had been posting here. I remember it and if you were a bit smarter you could have found the thread where Mike details what he did once he was made aware of that. But why would you bother? It's too much fun beating that dead horse, isn't it? Now Mike posts for BD and as far as I can tell he's the only one from BD that posts. And he is a shill but he kinda has a right to do so. He does advertise here. The guy from Ibex posts here. Do you 'out' him as a shill I mean, after all, he is shilling for Ibex.
> 
> Oh, and I'd watch who you call dishonest unless of course you can back that up with hard evidence.


I don't buy that Mike wasn't aware of several of his employee's doing it, he just admitted it once the community caught on. I also disagree that he's the only one from BD posting here.

I also find it interesting that someone is saying that I should watch who I call dishonest when that someone is violating forum guidelines:
"Posting under multiple accounts is not allowed and users doing this may be banned." http://www.roadbikereview.com/guidelinescrx.aspx

But hey, that's just me.


----------



## Oversane (Mar 31, 2007)

Henry Porter said:


> I don't buy that Mike wasn't aware of several of his employee's doing it, he just admitted it once the community caught on. I also disagree that he's the only one from BD posting here.
> 
> I also find it interesting that someone is saying that I should watch who I call dishonest when that someone is violating forum guidelines:
> "Posting under multiple accounts is not allowed and users doing this may be banned." http://www.roadbikereview.com/guidelinescrx.aspx
> ...


Henry, I'll grant you that Mikes explanation on what he did about employees posting here is a bit thin. I thought that at the time and I thought that now.

Oh, and since I changed my poster name I have never used my old one so I'm not posting under multiple accounts. Sorry. And I'm not even being dishonest about it. Go back and look as some of my other posts and you'll see that I have mentioned my old user name on various occasions. But making false accusations, now that's an entirely different animal. If you can back up your claim that BD is dishonest, let's have it.


----------



## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

How is employees misrepresenting themselves not dishonest? It's the business' responsibility to be honest and it's not our fault that he dug himself a big hole to get out of. I've seen nothing that changes my mind and for what it's worth, I'm in the majority with these thoughts.

Look at the original post. Why would anyone not financially tied to a company be worried about improving their site? Yeah, they're still not shilling or misrepresenting themselves.  

I'm done with this thread.


----------



## covenant (May 21, 2002)

nevermind...nothing to add.


----------



## Oversane (Mar 31, 2007)

Henry Porter said:


> How is employees misrepresenting themselves not dishonest? It's the business' responsibility to be honest and it's not our fault that he dug himself a big hole to get out of. I've seen nothing that changes my mind and for what it's worth, I'm in the majority with these thoughts.
> 
> Look at the original post. Why would anyone not financially tied to a company be worried about improving their site? Yeah, they're still not shilling or misrepresenting themselves.
> 
> I'm done with this thread.


Henry, that's old, old news. Mike came clean and that was an act of honesty. Where's the so-called dishonesty now? Do you think Kestrel and Surly would do business with a business they thought was dishonest? 

The web master and the owners of RBR know who is and who is not a shill. Everyone's IP address is logged each time they visit or post here. Shills can be easily identified and their access to this site can be denied. You should know this and I'm sure you do which leaves you in a credibility vacuum. 

So long. I'll try not to post anymore on this thread. It's just a waste of time. It's been snowing since early this morning where I live and I'm off to make a few turns. Tah, tah.


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

Oversane said:


> Henry, I'm not a new poster. I've been over the flames before. My previous poster name was tsalconoci4891. I got tired of typing that backwards all the time so I changed my poster name but you can look through the posts here and see several of my old posts from summer of 06'.



It is really no matter to me but FYI if you ever choose to change your name again you can E-mail on of the Admins and they can just change the name on your current account. You keep you post count (not that it matters) and all you old post will show up with your new name.


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

Oversane said:


> There is not another group of posters who have to defend their brands. As sonex pointed out, who else gets bashed? No one. No other manufacturer's forum has any locked threads. Why is that?



This is not totally true. There have been at least a few post about the "Forge" brand where they were accused of being shills and there was also a few threads about another low budget CF frame (name eludes me but I'll edited in when I remember) where the shill issue came up.

As far as just general bashing; try posting a thread claiming that a old Trek 5200 is the cat's meow and see what that gets you.

Trek gets bashed on a lot of forums. Different reasons than BD but still a firm bashing.


And another thing;

Please reread your original post about your new BD bike. Does it not sound even a little bit questionable?


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

I didn't think I would want to add anything else to this thread, but here goes.

I was just doing some shopping on Buy.com. I am looking at a GPS unit for my wife for Christmas. I noticed next to the "List Price:" there was a link that said "See Details" so I clicked on it. Why am I telling everyone this? Well, based on what it said, I thought it was relevant to the MSRP discussion that took place in this thread a week ago. Here is what the message box that popped up said:










> *List Price Disclaimer*
> "LIST PRICE" is the suggested retail price provided to us by our suppliers. We make no representation that a substantial number of these products have been sold or offered for sale at the list price. Actual retail prices in your area may be substantially different. Because we sell our merchandise over the internet on a national basis, it is not possible to know if our merchandise is sold at list price in any particular location or at any particular time. "YOU SAVE" reflects the difference between our price and the supplier provided list price shown on our sites. Because the list price may be different than the actual retail prices in your area, you may not actually realize a savings of this amount and may want to make an exact comparison for yourself by checking the prices of other internet or local retailers prior to making a purchase.


I thought this was interesting since it directly relates to the argument that was taking place here. To me, this makes perfect sense, but to others this clearly would establish Buy.com as a dishonest, misleading and unethical company. It would appear as though I like to do business with many unethical companies since I have made purchases from Buy.com in the past and will be doing so again today.

Here's the link to the GPS I was looking at so anyone that even remotely cares can see the "List Price" details I am talking about.


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

sonex305 said:


> List Price Disclaimer
> "LIST PRICE" is the suggested retail price *provided to us by our suppliers*. We make no representation that a substantial number of these products have been sold or offered for sale at the list price. Actual retail prices in your area may be substantially different. Because we sell our merchandise over the internet on a national basis, it is not possible to know if our merchandise is sold at list price in any particular location or at any particular time. "YOU SAVE" reflects the difference between our price and the supplier provided list price shown on our sites. Because the list price may be different than the actual retail prices in your area, you may not actually realize a savings of this amount and may want to make an exact comparison for yourself by checking the prices of other internet or local retailers prior to making a purchase..



I think one reason that BD (and even IBEX in this case) takes more heat in regards to MRSP is that they are the Manufacturer, supplier and retailer. It just comes off as more sleazy when they are one in the same.


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

Not neccesarily. The frames are manufactured in Taiwan, Shimano components are manufatured in (I don't actually know) and the Ritchey parts are manufactured elsewhere. Bring all that together and the MSRP is really the sum of the MSRPs of the pieces and parts that come together to make the bike as a whole. Shimano has it's own MSRPs for it's components and so does Ritchey. I don't know which factory makes the frames, but they could have their own MSRP as well on the frames. 

I think Mike has tried to make that point before. As far as it coming off as sleazy, I think that's only if your opinion is already skewed in that direction. To me it makes sense, to you it's sleazy. Different perspectives.


----------



## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

sonex305 said:


> ...I thought this was interesting since it directly relates to the argument that was taking place here. To me, this makes perfect sense, but to others this clearly would establish Buy.com as a dishonest, misleading and unethical company. It would appear as though I like to do business with many unethical companies since I have made purchases from Buy.com in the past and will be doing so again today.


Yes - this does quite exactly relate to the argument earlier. Buy.com explains the list price on their site, and quite clearly makes the explanation available and accessible. Where on BD's website can I see such a clear and accessible explanation? Oh right, there isn't any. Also, Buy.com is just a reseller of other company's goods - they don't mfg and sell the GPS units themselves, and then put up a dishonest list price.

Thanks for bringing this out and strengthening my earlier points.


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

ChilliConCarnage said:


> Yes - this does quite exactly relate to the argument earlier. Buy.com explains the list price on their site, and quite clearly makes the explanation available and accessible. Where on BD's website can I see such a clear and accessible explanation? Oh right, there isn't any. Also, Buy.com is just a reseller of other company's goods - they don't mfg and sell the GPS units themselves, and then put up a dishonest list price.
> 
> Thanks for bringing this out and strengthening my earlier points.


I am sorry you do not understand MSPR or the need for it
in your case I would say; just pay no attention to it

Example
We just got in the new FLY TEAM Ti which is the lightest hardtail under $8000
The added MSRP of the brand name parts on this bike is $3725 or so
NOT COUNTING a top grade Ti frame
So what should the MSRP be?

Well that is the first question the magazine we are sending it to wants to know for publication purposes. They certainly will not print a test of the bike without sighting the List Price. And of course - they would never print a list price that is under the value of the Shimano, Avid, RockShox, FSA, and Vuelta on the bike. That would never occur.

Lots of customers want to see this test; as do we
Many customers are already commenting on the Immortal ICE text that just came out.

Many dealers want to know when they can get their hands on these bikes to sell.

Most customers, all dealers, and all magazines already ready think the Motobecane list prices on these bikes are too low -- everyone with the possable exception of your thinks the MSRPs should go up.

but for those who do not understand the requirement of list prices
we love for customers to go completely by spec
I would love for anyone to post the links to all the sub 20 lbs hardtails they can find under $6000 -- that would be fun to compare to a FLY TEAM Ti


----------



## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

Post removed by me. I officially give up...


----------

