# 23mm wheels



## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Right now I'm looking at my options for wheelsets, and the 23mm rims have caught my fancy. I've looked at the HED Belgium C2s (in their various forms) and Velocity A23s. I'd also be open to other options.

Since I'm around 190-195 riding weight, I was considering a 24/28 spoke count, although I'm not adverse to the idea of running more. I'd be using them for racing (Cat4) and training.

My main concern is the front rim flexing into the brake when I'm out of the saddle and throwing my weight around, which happens with a lot of my wheelsets. I'd like to minimize this if possible. Other than that, I like a relatively aero profile/spokes and a solid/easy-spinning hub.

Any suggestions for a build/builder?


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

A few things:

First, wider rims ROCK. However, there's more to it than rim width alone. The true deciding factor is the width at the bead, not the braking track.

Second, if your rim is rubbing your brake when you stand, either your brakes are adjusted too close (not likely) or you need more than 24 spokes in your front wheel (very likely, esp. at your weight). 4, or even 8, more spokes won't hurt your performance at all, and for training wheels will actually help, a lot.

Contrary to most marketing hype, the typical 'aero profile' rim isn't all that aero, unless you're talking about a pretty deep rim. As a cat 4 racer at your weight (I've been there, so I'm not bustin' your chops, just sharing my experience) I'd suggest that you focus on practically anything/everything else but buying speed. 

So, you could get yourself a pair of Ultegra hubs, 32h for the rear, 28h for the front if you want, and have a local wheelbuilder lace 'em up to a pair of A23s, and be done with it.

Or, you could get a set of Stan's Alpha 340s and run 'em tubeless. They come 32 rear/28 front, and while the brake track is only 20mm wide, the tubeless bead design is much wider between the beads than the typical 19mm rim. I'd guess they may be about the same as the typical 23mm wide rim between the beads themselves. Anyway, they're lighter than any 23mm wide rim, even with the high-ish spoke count, AND they mount up tubeless so easy it's crazy. Put a pair of Specialized S Works Turbo tubeless tires on 'em at about 15lbs less air pressure than you normally run and you'll swear you're riding on high end tubulars.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

I was the OP's weight earlier this season, now down around 178 lbs (I'm 6'-3"). I built my light wheelset 20/28 with Kinlin XR-270s, running Hutchinson tubeless with Stan's yellow tape. If you want the front wheel to be low flex, use a wide-flange hub or lace radial or 1x heads in, and use DT Comps, not lighter (Revs or CX Rays) spokes. I'm using an Alchemy ELF, 20 spoke radial heads out (as recommended by Alchemy) with Comps, and it's stiff enough for me. The OP might want to stick with 24+ spokes up front.

The Alpha 340 is an extremely light aluminum rim, not sure how it'd hold up for a heavier rider. I just built my cross wheels, and a PowerTap road/cross rear wheel, with 32h A23 rims (all tubeless), but I don't have enough miles on them to comment on durability. I'd like to find a 24h A23 for a front road wheel, which I'll probably lace to a CK R45 hub.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

So, how easy was it to set up the A23s tubeless, and what tires are you using?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Let me put this in context, so you'll know what I'm running now:
For my commuter wheels, I'm running 28/32 Open Pros with Ultegra hubs. I run 23s on the front (fork clearance on my BMC) and 25s in the rear. They've been pretty bombproof over the frost heaves, root bumps, potholes, curbs, and whatever else I find on my way to work. Not inspiring or sexy, but they do the job day after day and I never have to have a second thought about them. Exactly what I wanted in a commuter wheel.

For my TT wheels, I picked up some 50mm 24/28 Cane Creek Aros tubulars. From what I understand they're re-badged, non-dimpled Zipp 404s with Cane Creek hubs. Other than the cheap price ($600 new), the fact they had a higher spoke count than most deep-section wheels was a big plus. I haven't used them yet, but I'm going to be running 24c Vittoria Pavé Evo CGs on them because of the rough pavement on our TT course. My first deep section carbon tubulars, so I'm interested to see what the fuss is all about.

For my race/training wheels, I've been using Neuvation wheels with 23c tires. I was using 16/20 M28 Aero3s, which spun great for about a year until I broke a spoke on the front wheel and the tire lodged against the fork. Not exactly confidence-inspiring. I replaced them with 20/24 R28s, which have been fine except they flex into the brake when I climb. I usually open the front brake on hillclimbs for this reason. These are the wheels I'm looking to replace. 

I'm still going to use the R28s (as well as the M28s), but I'd like to have something that rolls as well (or better), with less flex, that is more attuned to the sometimes rough road conditions. I'm not looking for a clunky, throw-it-on-the-tandem type of wheel. To be honest, HED's marketing copy and naming scheme for the Belgium C2s is what attracted me to 23mm rims in the first place. Anything that evokes the Northern Classics is OK in my book, and would look right at home on my Ridley.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

mudge said:


> So, how easy was it to set up the A23s tubeless, and what tires are you using?


Easy enough. I'm using two wraps of the 21mm Yellow Tape, a removable core valve stem, and a Hutchinson Intensive on the road wheel, same as I did with the XR-270 rims. Stan's Plus 4 rim strips with included valve stems and Hutchinson Piranhas on the cross wheels.

In all cases, I drilled the inner valve stem hole in the rim out to 5/16" and chamfered it, so the conical rubber valve stem base would seat better. I can still run standard tubes, of course.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

I chose the A23 over the HED C2 due to the weight and price. You might be able to get away with fewer spokes on the HED, though. 

A Hutchinson Intensive on a 20mm XR-270 measures 23mm, and on the A23 measures 25mm. I can't say that I can tell any difference in the way they ride (great) on either rim, though.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

fallzboater said:


> I chose the A23 over the HED C2 due to the weight and price. You might be able to get away with fewer spokes on the HED, though.
> 
> A Hutchinson Intensive on a 20mm XR-270 measures 23mm, and on the A23 measures 25mm. I can't say that I can tell any difference in the way they ride (great) on either rim, though.


I picked up a pair of the Intensives, couldn't come close to getting one mounted to either a Stans 355 rim or DT RR1.1 rim. Did they go on your A23 rims pretty easily, and if not, how'd you get 'em on?


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

mudge said:


> I picked up a pair of the Intensives, couldn't come close to getting one mounted to either a Stans 355 rim or DT RR1.1 rim. Did they go on your A23 rims pretty easily, and if not, how'd you get 'em on?


I got the first bead on without a lever, and the second one on with a single plastic lever. The Piranhas, which I believe have the same bead, were a little harder, but the Stan's rubber strips are a lot thicker than just the Yellow tape.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

fallzboater said:


> I got the first bead on without a lever, and the second one on with a single plastic lever. The Piranhas, which I believe have the same bead, were a little harder, but the Stan's rubber strips are a lot thicker than just the Yellow tape.


I must be cursed... I've mounted Bulldogs and Piranhas on my 355s by hand, and mounted a pair of Specialized S Works Turbo tubeless on my new Alpha340s by hand, too... but I can't get my Intensives mounted on any rim I own, using two levers and a platoon of gorillas to help.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

I'll send you, oh, $20/ea for them. ;^)


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

fallzboater said:


> I'll send you, oh, $20/ea for them. ;^)


too funny... I can send 'em back to where I bought 'em for a full, unconditional money back guarantee. Gotta love biketiresdirect.com's return policy.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

mudge said:


> Contrary to most marketing hype, the typical 'aero profile' rim isn't all that aero, unless you're talking about a pretty deep rim.


Like 25mm or so...


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

rruff said:


> Like 25mm or so...


From what I've read, from sources I trust, more like 65-70 mm or so.

No such thing as an aero 25mm rim. Some may be more aero than others, but none of them are particularly aero.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

What sources are those? All the data I've seen shows quite a dramatic improvement going from 20mm-30mm (bigger than the difference between 30-50mm), and you can also use fewer spokes on the deeper and stiffer rims. A decent rim in the 25-30mm range with minimal aero steel spokes, is much closer to goodness on the aero continuum than a 20mm rim with lots of round spokes.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

rruff said:


> What sources are those? All the data I've seen shows quite a dramatic improvement going from 20mm-30mm (bigger than the difference between 30-50mm), and you can also use fewer spokes on the deeper and stiffer rims. A decent rim in the 25-30mm range with minimal aero steel spokes, is much closer to goodness on the aero continuum than a 20mm rim with lots of round spokes.


I'm not arguing that a 20mm rim w/ lots of round spokes is as aero as a good 25-30mm rim w/ minimal spokes. No one would. However, others (Cobb, Hed, etc...) have argued that a deeper rim is much more aero. 

YMMV, but for my money if I'm trying to go aero, I'm going as deep as possible. If I'm looking for light weight, I'm going as light as reasonable, but not expecting a big aero boost. Most 25-30mm aero rims, especially alum. rims, are way too heavy for the minimal aero benefit, IMO.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Even if you have the same type and about the same number spokes, you still gain a fair amount in the 20-30mm range. And if you want to go fast there is no reason to ignore aerodynamics... deeper aluminum rims cost no more than shallow ones, and the weight difference isn't enough to worry about either, since they'd still be faster on all but the steepest grades. You may prefer shallow rims for other reasons, however.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

rruff said:


> Even if you have the same type and about the same number spokes, you still gain a fair amount in the 20-30mm range. And if you want to go fast there is no reason to ignore aerodynamics... deeper aluminum rims cost no more than shallow ones, and the weight difference isn't enough to worry about either, since they'd still be faster on all but the steepest grades. You may prefer shallow rims for other reasons, however.


Take all that data, convert it to watts saved at roughly 26 - 30 mph, and if it's not at least double digit savings, it's not a 'fair amount'. And, yes, the heavier 'aero' rims will be slower on grades above 2 or 3 %. If you're not doing well in excess of 18 - 20 mph, the aero rims aren't helping in any significant way, and I'm guessing you're not climbing in excess of 18 mph.

I'm not saying I prefer shallow wheels, I just don't believe that mid-depth wheels are the answer to hardly any question. They are a solution in search of a problem.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Enough info has been provided for anybody to use a calculator to determine the "watts difference" for any scenario they desire. They can also stick in a 150g weight difference and see what that does. If they do so, they'll see that you are wrong. Double digits? If that is your criteria, then you might as well ignore everything.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

rruff said:


> Enough info has been provided for anybody to use a calculator to determine the "watts difference" for any scenario they desire. They can also stick in a 150g weight difference and see what that does. If they do so, they'll see that you are wrong. Double digits? If that is your criteria, then you might as well ignore everything.


Well, you're right about one thing... if you saving only a few watts, you may as well ignore it. It's like trying to pick the fly poop out of the pepper.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

After a couple weeks of hemming and hawing, I decided to order the HED Kermesse wheelset from my favorite LBS. The 24/28, 2 cross, bladed spoke build is pretty much what I wanted, so we'll see how it all pans out. They will certainly be stiffer than the 20/24 and 16/20 Neuvation wheels I've been riding. I have a set of 23c Rubino Pro Slicks and another set of 23c Open Corsa Evo Slicks all ready to go on for next spring, and I may try to pick up a set of Open Pavé Evo CGs in a 24c for that full-on spring classic vibe.

With the Rubino Pro Slick no longer made in 25c and NOS versions of that tire getting extremely scarce, this look like a viable option to get similar or better ride quality from a 23c tire.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

Alaska Mike said:


> After a couple weeks of hemming and hawing, I decided to order the HED Kermesse wheelset from my favorite LBS. The 24/28, 2 cross, bladed spoke build is pretty much what I wanted, so we'll see how it all pans out. They will certainly be stiffer than the 20/24 and 16/20 Neuvation wheels I've been riding. I have a set of 23c Rubino Pro Slicks and another set of 23c Open Corsa Evo Slicks all ready to go on for next spring, and I may try to pick up a set of Open Pavé Evo CGs in a 24c for that full-on spring classic vibe.
> 
> With the Rubino Pro Slick no longer made in 25c and NOS versions of that tire getting extremely scarce, this look like a viable option to get similar or better ride quality from a 23c tire.


I'm not aware if those rims convert to tubeless well or not, but if they do, I'd recommend trying the Specialized Turbo Tubeless tire. I recently tried a pair mounted on a pair of the new Stan's road wheels, and they are absolutely the best riding tire I've ridden, easily as nice as any tubulars I've used and much better than any other clinchers I've tried. On those slightly wider rims, they should be even better.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

Should be no problem, with the 21mm Stan's yellow tape, which is what I'm using with Velocity A23s and Hutchinson Tubeless (they make the Turbo Tubeless, too).


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

fallzboater said:


> Should be no problem, with the 21mm Stan's yellow tape, which is what I'm using with Velocity A23s and Hutchinson Tubeless (they make the Turbo Tubeless, too).


I've heard great things about the Hutchinson tubeless tires, but went w/ the Specialized for two reasons: dual tread compound, AND the 23mm Turbo is the same width as the Intensive 25mm. The 23mm Hutchinson Atom or Fusion are a tiny bit narrower, and they're single compound. The casing is the same for all of them, so you can't really go wrong with any choice.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

I just wanted to chime in about my experience with A23 rims. I just started using them, and I love the ride quality. I definitely feel more confident at high speeds with the same 23mm tires. I am usually not sensitive to feel much of a difference between wheels but I definitely notice a difference with these. My set is a basic build with 32 DT Comp spokes and Shimano 105 hubs (1856 grams), and they should be great for Winter riding in Southern California. I had a longer test ride on them today, and I passed lots of people down Stunt road (4 miles at 6%) while with 19mm wide rims I do not feel as confident and have an urge to apply the brakes more often. https://www.mapmyride.com/route/us/ca/van%20nuys/161128673769731516

(The wheelset ridden immediately before the reviewed wheelset is 28h cross-2 DT Swiss RR415 front with Revolution spokes and 240s hub and 32h RR465 rear with Sapim Race spokes cross-3 with a PowerTap SL+ hub) 

The A23 rims are a little flimsier than others, and one would probably need to be careful when selecting the number of spokes to use. (e.g. if you are comfortable with 20/24 on Kinlin XR-270 rims maybe go for 20/28 or 24/28 with A23 rims). It isn't just the rim depth as other low profile rims are definitely more rigid than these. Brake adjustments were more than I thought would be needed, and it may not be very convenient to swap wheels with 23mm wide rims with 19mm wide rim wheels often for people that are picky about the brakes being set up perfectly.

As far as the Shimano 105 5700 hubs are concerned, they work great. As I mentioned in a thread a while ago, the hub bodies are not as nice as Ultegra hubs (probably less time spent machining and polishing to keep the cost down), but the hubs work great. The freehub is almost silent just like Ultegra hubs. Unfortunately, they are only available in 32h and 36h. The hubset weighs just over 500 grams.

https://s975.photobucket.com/albums/ae237/pweiss/A23_5700/


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

If you want some really outstandingly confident descending, try them with Hutchinson Tubeless tires, and probably a little lower pressure. I'm currently running A23s f&r on my cross bike (with Piranhas), and with the PowerTap rear hub on my road bike (with an Intensive). I still need to build a front road wheel with one (probably 24h, if I can get one).


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I got my first ride in on my Kermesses. I mounted up a pair of 23c Vittoria Rubino Pro Slicks, aired them up to 10psi lower per tire than I usually run in the same tires, and went off down the road.

I didn't do any real cornering or fast descending, since it was in the mid 30s and there were patches of ice and heavy frost on the road. This was a 50 mile ride at endurance pace, so I wasn't pushing it.

So far, the overall impressions are good. No noticeable flex when out of the saddle and a nice, comfortable, stable ride. I'm pretty impressed so far. Once they clear and sweep the roads next spring I'm going to mount up my Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CXs and really see how nice they ride.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

OK, after a couple more rides, I'm pretty much sold on the concept. So much so that I just ordered a set of 28/32 A23s from Spin Lite Cycling to use as a training set.


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