# Boyd Cycling Altamont wheels



## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Pardon us for being a tad sceptical about a 1-post forum newbie with an overly negative or positive "review". Maybe it's because we've been bitten before.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> Pardon us for being a tad sceptical about a 1-post forum newbie with an overly negative or positive "review". Maybe it's because we've been bitten before.


No, this is a customer of ours. And he did promise that he was going to go out on every forum out there and make sure people knew every thing he was upset about after we tried to help with any concerns he had. I guess this is him making good on his promise to do just that.

Despite my best efforts, it's hard to make every single person happy.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

coachboyd said:


> No, this is a customer of ours. And he did promise that he was going to go out on every forum out there and make sure people knew every thing he was upset about after we tried to help with any concerns he had. I guess this is him making good on his promise to do just that.
> Despite my best efforts, it's hard to make every single person happy.


Good for you to respond. But I'm sure you're experienced enough not to lose too much sleep over his post(s).


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Actually, stuff like this does make me lose sleep at times. It means that I have to make sure I am going to every possible review and forum site to make sure that I can explain what happened. Most people here know that we try really hard to do good things, but for people who haven't heard of us stuff like this can (unfairly) be a barrier.

And I did go through my emails where I offered explanations for both the stiffer and "harsher" ride as well as why a wheel can spin in a stand but would never cause any hop when out on the road.

_________from my email reply______________

Wheels that are built for performance can be stiffer, better responding, but can also lead towards a little harsher ride. If you are buying a sports car you are not expecting it to ride like a minivan down the highway. A wheelset with 32spoke triple crossed on the front is going to be a bit more plush, but will not have the performance or quality of the Altamonts. What size tire are you using on the Altamonts?

With the wheel spinning and causing jumping, this is something that can happen on a bike when the wheels are in the air. It can be caused by the valve of the inner tube as it throws the weight off by a few grams. If you were riding down the road with your wheels up in the air, this would cause the wheel to hop. But, because you have the wheels on the ground with your weight over top of them, thwoing off the balance of the rim by a few grams will never cause any effect that would be noticeable when riding. The wheel is in round and so it's going to spin round. You would need quite a bot of weight out of balance to make the wheel want to hop with you on the bike.

Thanks again and let me know your thoughts on this.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Glad to see Coach Boyd is here. I'm not going to post on any other forums. It is not worth my time. I thought this forum might provide me with some answers. The purpose of my post was to simply get answers to questions that have not been answered by you.

So, since you failed to address my concerns in our communication, this is your chance to do so. Please explain why your wheelset rides much rougher than the Rolwheel wheelset. Please explain why your wheelset is so out of balance compared to others. These are my main concerns. I hope the front wheel will finally stay true and if not I can deal with that problem. You may want to explain your review policy of only accepting five star reviews but since it is your website, you don't really have to explain this if you don't want.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

Why would you purchase wheels thinking they are magically going to give you a smoother ride. The only justified concern I can see in his post is the wheel going out of true so quickly. I'm sure Boyd would have no problem addressing that concern.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

redondoaveb said:


> Why would you purchase wheels thinking they are magically going to give you a smoother ride. The only justified concern I can see in his post is the wheel going out of true so quickly. I'm sure Boyd would have no problem addressing that concern.


Yes, I can definitely address that. We want all of our wheels to stay in true for the life of the wheels. I think that is every wheel builders goal, to have a every wheel never go out of true.

Unfortunately that is never going to happen. Even though we stress relieve the wheels extremely well (we even built a wheel stressing table in house), it's possible that one of the 24 spokes in the front wheel can settle in a little more than the rest during the first couple weeks of riding. All the squeezing, stress relieving, and making sure the spokes are all at the same tension can't prevent 100% of the settling to be done by the time a customer gets a wheel.

Fortunately it's very easy to true up the wheels and a simple turn of a nipple can bring it back. We don't know how the truing was done, if the spoke was twisted at all when the truing was done with the customer it would go out of true again very quickly as the spoke unwound. It's impossible to even know if it was the same or a different spoke that needed adjustment between the first and second times (unless the spoke was marked). We don't use any harsh threadlockers on the wheels so they can easily be worked on.

I'm sorry it went slightly out of true, and all I can say to that is we do everything we can to ensure the wheels are built properly. We have people who haven't had to touch their spokes in years, but we can also have it where every once in a while a spoke settles in just a hair.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

I did not expect a magically smoother ride but I did expect to feel a improvement. I read that the wide rims would provide a smoother ride and I'm afraid I fell for this lie. On the Boyd site, it states that the wider rim will allow for lower air pressure and therefore more vibration damping. I did not find this to be true. 

The mistake I made is that I should have ridden the wheels before buying them but Boyd wheels are a rare site around here.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Coach Boyd, I'm glad you included your email response to me. Can you clarify a few points? I stated in my email that I was comparing your wheels to a Rolwheel Volant which is radial spoked in front. Why did you bring up the 3X wheel comparison? Did not answer the question of why your wheels ride rougher than the Rolwheel.

Secondly, concerning the "jumping wheel", I stated that I tried the test with tire and without with the same results. Why did you state the valve of the inner tube could cause the out of balance in your response? You did not answer why your wheels are so out of balance compared to others.

I your other post, you stated that you tried to address my concerns. If you did, I must have missed that email. Could you resend? Thanks


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Let me comment on some things in your post. I don't know coachboyd and I've never dealt with him and he's not a massive forum poster so let's get that out of the way. I'm a passionate wheel person (read my site, link below!) and don't make a penny from wheels so all my opinions are based solely on......my opinion.

You wanted a smoother riding wheelset so you chose a radial spoked 30mm deep rim over an OpenPro with (I'll assume) 32 spokes crossed 2x? And you're surprised that they ride a bit rougher? I think you're being somewhat unreasonable here.

I have OP rims with 32/32 x3 on my fall/winter/spring wheels. I have 24/28, radial, x2 on my summer wheels. Whether my summer wheels ride more harsh than my winter wheels is never in my thoughts. I use the "correct" pressures and tires for both wheelsets to give me the ride I need. I don't compare them as they are what they are. I know what I'm choosing.

Let me give you an anecdote - many years ago (40) I was in a road race, and also in that race (but in a much higher category) was, arguably, probably Canada's best ever bike racer - the incomparable Jocelyn Lovell (reduced later to a quadriplegic by being run over by a dump truck when out on a training ride). Back then almost everyone raced on 36/36, x3 tubulars. The real elite guys rode special exotic wheels of 32/32! I saw Jocelyn in the parking lot and he had a radial spoked front wheel which was the first one I had ever seen in real life. I asked him if it rode harsh compared to "normal" wheels. His answer was "Sure, maybe, but I use the correct pressure for that wheel and it rides just fine."

So maybe you need to experiment with pressures for that stiff, deep rim? Try tires with more compliance too. My 320 tpi Vittoria at 80 psi (on my front radial wheel) is like a feather pillow.

Your front wheel came out of true? Coachboyd already commented on this. I'm sure if you build enough wheels **** happens once in a while. The sky doesn't have to fall and maybe the spoke just needs re-tensioning and equalizing to those around it. Use the pluck/ping method which I'll bet is more accurate than your old Park tension tool. Of course if you do re-tension the wheel, the seller than has no idea how good (or bad) of a job you did so don't expect too much after-sales service from then on.

Radial hop on a spinning wheel - many wheels have this issue. I have some that do and some that don't. Neither one rides any different on the road. Radial unbalance can show up on the family car as you have 'suspension" there that can allow vertical hop. Your bike can't as the wheel is solidly sandwiched between your arse and the road. Radial hop doesn't lead to bike shimmy. If you want to read all about this phenomenon, Google Lennard Zinn's many "death wobble" articles. Before you're done reading you'll realize that there is no definitive cause for this problem.

Increased rim width - all "new" wheels seem to have gone to 23mm wide rims and we read all kinds of claims about the wider tire profile allowing lower pressures and therefore a magical ride, better grip and whiter teeth. Ok, I lied about the whiter teeth. With my last personal wheelset that I built for myself (last August) I had the choice of any rim in the world. I researched all of them (that were available retail). I didn't find one of them that checked all my boxes. If they were otherwise perfect but the extra width added too much weight, then I discounted them. I settled on a normal width, 24mm deep 420 gram rim. Realize that the wheelbuilding industry as a whole (and the rest of the retail world) revolves around sales and repeat sales. Year ago, when I was a kid, soap powder used to be re-issued yearly with a "new and improved formula". Bike wheelset makers never forgot that.

Posted reviews - Coachboyd's site is not a public domain democracy. He can choose, or un-choose, anything he wishes. Last week I made a comment (slightly negative) about a new bike model on an online bike news site that reviewed this new model. The post was there for all to see. Later in the day it was gone. Maybe the bike company had a word with the site owner about my post. I'll never know.

I would suggest that you demo wheelsets from your LBS and reject those that don't make you happy. That's really hard to do with mailorder.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Litespeed rider said:


> I did not expect a magically smoother ride but I did expect to feel a improvement. I read that the wide rims would provide a smoother ride and I'm afraid I fell for this lie. On the Boyd site, it states that the wider rim will allow for lower air pressure and therefore more vibration damping. I did not find this to be true.
> 
> The mistake I made is that I should have ridden the wheels before buying them but Boyd wheels are a rare site around here.


Wide rims do not make for a more comfortable ride ... If you thought that, I feel sorry for you.

With that said, wider rims allow for a normal 23c tire to expand and have more "Volume" than on a narrower rim. This allows you to run "Lower" air pressure, which will give a better ride. If you didn't drop your air pressure when switching to a narrower rim ... it's no wonder you didn't see an improvement.

If you did lower the air pressure in your tire, I'd guess it's all in your head as lowering air pressure is the greatest difference you will ever make when it comes to the ride of a bike. Even stiff as a board frames can ride pretty descent with the right tires, at the right pressure on wider rims.

The other advantage of wide rims is you can run 25c tires that fit the rim better ... this allows for even more volume of air and even lower air pressures. 

Myself ... I'm 180 pounds and run 95 psi front and 100 psi rear on wider rims and 23c tires and get a great ride on a Scott Foil (a supposedly rough riding frame).

As for wheels riding smoother/more comfortable ... the difference between even a 32x3 cross and a 24 spoke, radial laced wheel is going to be minor and lowering air pressure in your tires will make a bigger and more noticeable difference in the ride than the wheels.

I'm guessing you are still running high air pressures and need to adjust your thinking on what you are doing ... it may change a lot more than your current opinions.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Wookiebiker

As I said in the original post, I started out at 100 in the back and 95 in the front. I then lowered the pressure down to 95 back and 85 front. Unfortunately, this did not help with the vibration. I then went all the way down to 90 back and 75 front and I did feel a smoother ride but the bike felt unstable in corners. I'm running Rubino Pros 25mm. Perhaps the only solution for me is to try to run 29mm tires but I doubt they will fit the fork.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Thanks for the response Mike T. You have provided some of the answers I was trying to find. I was concerned about the way out of balance condition of the wheels and since you have witnessed it before, it eases my mind.

I have always been pleased with the 25mm Vitoria Rubino Pros. They have a 150 tpi count and have always given a fairly smooth ride. So, I was really shocked on my first ride with the Altamonts to experience the much rougher ride. As I have stated, the bike does handle noticeably better with the wider rims and that is a big plus. Unfortunately, I can't go any lower on the air pressure without handling problems

As for the review issue, you are correct and I should have not included the comment about that. I guess I'm just a irritable old man that believes too strongly in principles in business.

I did build wheels back in the 70's and 80's. Still have a nice truing stand with dial indicators. Wheels back then were very different than today's very rigid designs. Perhaps I should have given it another try but I would rather be riding my bike instead of working on it. 

You have given good advice about trying out a wheelset before buying. I will definitely be doing that in the future. Actually, I have tried out a Hed wheelset that had the qualities I am looking for in a wheelset.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

You're welcome. If we can just, through a bit of explanation, suggestions and some opinions, reduce a bit if the animosity between you and the Coach then we have all won. I own, have owned or have tested many wheelsets ranging from OpenPro 36 x3 spoke wheels all the way to 50mm deep carbon fibre wheels with radial/2x CX-Ray spokes and the differences between them are far less that one would imagine and probably hope for.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

I don't have any animosity towards Boyd. I have just been frustrated at the lack of answers to my questions. However, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps one of his emails was dumped in my spam folder.

It is interesting that you have not seem much of a difference in all the wheels you have tested. I wish you could test a Altamont.

Looked at your website and you have a wealth of information for wheel builders. Good Job.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Disclaimer: I don't own Boyd wheels, and I don't know Boyd personally. I've only read his posts on this forum, and the ones he has made tell me he is a reasonable person. 

Litespeed, if you've built wheels before, why didn't you go that route this time and save yourself both a price premium and a middleman? You would have been your own quality control, and you would have had your own ideal selection of rims, spokes, and hubs. Boyd's site is not the first to show only five-star positive reviews; practically all businesses do that. If you want a place that doesn't remove negative reviews, then go look up some companies on GlassDoor.com, but that won't be relevant to cycling of course. Regarding your wheel going out of true, I'm not sure what to tell you. Maybe that set was the one that slipped through quality control, but it can't be said for sure. Stuff happens. Since you ordered a 24/28 stallion build, I take it you're not exactly a lightweight, and heavier weight obviously stresses one's wheels more. Moreover, moving to a wider rim will have a very slight effect on comfort. That goal is more easily accomplished through changing tires, tire size, and pressure. I've ridden on Rubino Pros before, and they're probably the best value for a tire under $30 apiece, but they're not as smooth and as inspiring in the corners as something like a Conti GP4000S, a Michelin Pro 4 Service Course, or a Vittoria Open Corsa CXIII. 

I think there is more to what you have said than what you've revealed. Given the circumstances, I think Boyd was right in saying that not every person can be satisfied; some people just want more. Perhaps you were led on by advertising that sold the sizzle and made you want the steak, but when you got the steak it didn't meet your inflated expectations. It's understandable that maybe you felt cheated, especially as someone who built wheels in the past and who went the lazier route this time by buying a set built by another person. I think you realized in retrospect that your purchase may not have been the most informed, and as a result you wanted satisfaction, so here you are.


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## rredad (Nov 3, 2008)

My.03....

I have a set of Altamonts and a set Vitessee from Boyd. I also have a 1st gen Ultegra set, and a BWW build of Shimano 2300 Hubs/Mavix CP22 rims and some other no name wheel sets. 
I am not a wheel expert, all I know for sure is what I've experienced. I bought the Vitessee set in 2012 when I was running the Ultegra set. I've run 25mm conti GP4000s for several years. I kept a spread sheet with all of the weekly group rides I do,w/notes on wind, speed etc. I was just positive that I was going to be magically faster. Unfortunately I really didn't see any demonstrative difference in speed/avg speed between the Ultegra and Boyd wheelsets. What I did see was increased comfort. On the traditional Ultegra rims I ran 110/r 90/f, using the same 25mm tires.. I'm 180 lbs. On the Vitessee I ran 95/r 70/f. On the slightly wider Altamonts I run 90/r 70/front. The 25mm conties measure just a scooch under 28mm on the Altamonts. I can't really compare the ride of the Boyds or the Ultegra to the traditional 32x mavic/shimano, as that was on an old steel frame with 23mm tires, but for me the ride (and handling) are fantastic on either Boyd's al sets. The Vitessee have just under 10,000 mi on them and the Altamonts which I got this spring are at 2700. Both sets are still true and roll great. I've very lightly lubed the freehub on the Vitessee last year before the Tour de Wyoming, but it didn't need it. Sorry to hear you weren't happy. I'm still extremely pleased with my purchases.
dave s


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Seems like some pretty harsh criticism and I don't believe that it's fair to bring this out on a forum thread when much of it is easily addressed (and sound's like it was addressed already).

1) Ride quality is too subjective to hold Boyd accountable. One man's dreamy ride is another's harsh. Honestly, the wheels have little to nothing to do with it. A wheel's vertical deflection is fractional to how much a tire deforms from road surface irregularities. Tire size, pressure, and profile all effect ride quality. The wider rim flattens out a tire profile compared to an Open Pro. That results in more vertical sidewalls. At the same pressure, the ride is more harsh. At lower pressures the ride can be comparable depending on the tire. The fact that you experienced a decrease in stability in cornering with lowered pressure is no consistent with what most other riders experience. When you want more confident cornering on irregular surfaces from just about any vehicle (bike, car, motorcycle) it's widely accepted that lowering the pressure within reason improves handing. For a 180lb rider on a 25mm tire using a wide rim I would consider 80-95lbs rear and 75-90lbs front to be a good range to work with. 

All of this has nothing to do with Boyd in particular and it's unfair to criticize them. What you have experienced is common for any wider rim. A little more research would have revealed this prior to purchase.

2) Wheel out of true. Even the best companies in the world can make a mistake. If the wheel went prematurely out of true that's not ideal and all reviews of Boyds have shown his dedication to customers and resolving issues. I'd like to know more how he didn't meet your expectation with regard to this matter.

3) Out of balance. I know you are not being entirely honest when you say that you have never experience any wheel hop when spinning while the bike is on the stand. I know for a fast that almost every rim is out of balance and will demonstrate this including the Open Pro. The degree to which this out of balance is experienced varies, but it's not eliminated with other rims especially alloy. A rim like the Altamont has a rather deep profile. It's still rather light meaning that the rim extrusion is thinner than some of the more inexpensive rims out there. The joint is is larger than an Open Pro or similar rim with a small cross sectional area. Therefore this rim is more likely to be out of balance. Having ridden similar rims at speeds above 45mph I have never attributed this issue to any shimmy nor have any of my customers. I have not read of any similar issue with the Pacenti SL23 which is a pretty comparable rim that lots of people have build wheels with. 

4) His 5 star reviews on the website. If you want to see more detailed reviews you can look up his wheels on the various forums. As far as I have read, I think that 5 star rating is rather close to the various opinions online elsewhere.

It's very easy to make a lot of noise on a website like this. What concerns me is that the ramifications aren't always well thought out. What I see from your OP is that you have a wheel go out of true. That's the legitimate concern here and I'm sure Boyd would be happy to address this without the need for an online complaint. If I'm wrong, let me know. The other issues you have are all things that could have been better understood with some more research on your part. Case in point, Mike T was able to explain most of it and he didn't write anything that hasn't been posted before.

Now this thread is here linked for anyone to read about Boyds wheels. I'm sure most people will read through and realize that it's much ado about nothing. Still it's here without much reason. I'm not the only one here that thinks it isn't deserving.


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## rivren5 (Mar 1, 2009)

Nicely stated - I don't think the OP was out to seek information, but rather to put a black mark on Boyd. The OP could have easily explained the issues and not mention the brand. Perhaps it is buyers remorse? Who knows. But it appears to me, that the OP was given all the information/customer service that he asked for but was not happy with the answers and took to the forums. You can't please everyone 100% of the time. I am sure you gave this customer all the time/answers he needed. He just sounds like a whiner to me. I would by Altamonts in heartbeat. 




ergott said:


> Seems like some pretty harsh criticism and I don't believe that it's fair to bring this out on a forum thread when much of it is easily addressed (and sound's like it was addressed already).
> 
> 1) Ride quality is too subjective to hold Boyd accountable. One man's dreamy ride is another's harsh. Honestly, the wheels have little to nothing to do with it. A wheel's vertical deflection is fractional to how much a tire deforms from road surface irregularities. Tire size, pressure, and profile all effect ride quality. The wider rim flattens out a tire profile compared to an Open Pro. That results in more vertical sidewalls. At the same pressure, the ride is more harsh. At lower pressures the ride can be comparable depending on the tire. The fact that you experienced a decrease in stability in cornering with lowered pressure is no consistent with what most other riders experience. When you want more confident cornering on irregular surfaces from just about any vehicle (bike, car, motorcycle) it's widely accepted that lowering the pressure within reason improves handing. For a 180lb rider on a 25mm tire using a wide rim I would consider 80-95lbs rear and 75-90lbs front to be a good range to work with.
> 
> ...


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

I built wheels long ago when the rims were completely different. I have no desire to learn and study about wheel building with these new very rigid rims. I'd rather be riding anyway then in my shop behind a truing stand.

I agree with you about there being more to this situation. I have thought about it and realize that the problem here is me. I made some major mistakes in purchasing these wheels.

First mistake is that I never tried the wheels out. I'll never buy another set without riding them for at least 50 miles.

Secondly, I bought from a small wheel builder that I have not had any dealings with before. I should have done more research to validate marketing claims. Not only Boyd Cycling claims but the claim other builders are making concerning wider rims.

Third, I should have made sure that there was a 30 day no questions asked return policy like Rolwheels.

Forth, I should have checked into the companies customer service by calling and asking questions. I did call once but it was a short call.

So, I'm going give up on this quest for answers. Several of you have been helpful and I thank you.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

RREDAD
That's encouraging news. I'm close to 190 lbs and I'm going to try the 90/70 pressure you are running. I do think the Vitoria tires run as smooth as the Conti's. But, next set I will try them again.

I'll be riding two centuries this week on Weds and Thurs and I'll experiment with the tire pressures and perhaps I can find a pressure that works for me.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

I sorry that you feel I was harsh. Please note that I have removed the reference to Boyd Cyclings five star only review policy. It's his website and he can post what he wants.

On your third point about out of balance wheels. I can assure you that I have never seen a wheel this out of balance on a quality bike. I've been riding high end bikes since 1974. I have gone through many wheels and have never seen a wheel cause the bike to jump up and down so aggressively. I am also a fairly good bike mechanic and I work on our bike club bikes and many others. Never seen a wheel jump like these unless it's a Walmart bike. I think the wheel has a a extra large sleeve at the joint which it might need to keep the joint together properly. So, why wasn't this explained to me by Boyd?

Fact is, I didn't get good answers and that is why I posted here.Do you really think that my questions were answered? Boyd's email response was something like how a politician answered a question without answering it. Questions deserve answers. Simple as that.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

The first loose spoke was the second spoke from the valve stem. The second spoke problem was the sixth from the valve stem. I never turn a nipple more than a half turn and I always make sure the spoke is not twisted. Learned that forty years ago. Wheels have not hit a pot hole or anything that I know of that could cause the wheel to go out of true. If it goes out again, I'll borrow a Park TM-1 and call you for the numbers


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## rm -rf (Feb 27, 2006)

I didn't read all the response posts, but I do have a couple of comments.

I have 4 year old Kinlin rims, not the newer wide rims. At 170 pounds and with supple Continental GP4000 25c tires, I'm running 80 psi front and 100-105 rear. If I had wider rims, which have even larger air volumes in the same tire size, I'd drop it to at least 75 front and 95 rear. ( I used to use 90-95 front and 105-110 rear on 23c.)

Rough road comfort:
Compared to the large deflections in the tires, I don't see how the tiny amounts of flex in a rim would even be a tiny percentage of the tire deflection. Even differences in sidewall flex between different tires would be much bigger than the rim deflections.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rm -rf said:


> Rough road comfort:
> Compared to the large deflections in the tires, I don't see how the tiny amounts of flex in a rim would even be a tiny percentage of the tire deflection. Even differences in sidewall flex between different tires would be much bigger than the rim deflections.


I've said it before around here and here it is again - any rim vertical deflection is minuscule compared to tire deflection. The first one would be in the order of a few measly thousandths of an inch where the second one is at least a good 1/2". And when we settle on the correct tire pressure for our tire and our weight......well.....there just isn't any comparison with rim deflection is there?


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Litespeed rider said:


> I built wheels long ago when the rims were completely different. I have no desire to learn and study about wheel building with these new very rigid rims. I'd rather be riding anyway then in my shop behind a truing stand.


After reading this I'm finding your approach a bit disingenuous. You're disappointed that the new rims didn't perform according to your expectations and that you know how a good wheel should perform, but then you said you have no desire to learn how modern rims are built. You can't have it both ways. 

I'm starting to think you're a poe. It's time to come clean.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Obviously I only know about this situation what's been posted here, but Boyd's reputation speaks for itself, he's earnest, has good products, does a good job and raises the bar on himself and others, cares, commits few unforced errors, and from every indication is all over it when one does slip through. If the rest of things in cycling ran that way the whole program would work better. Threads like these almost work to the person in Boyd's position's advantage (assuming the person/company in question has built up a good rep and good will) because it brings people out of the woodwork in support. 

To the OP, your tires are going to set up bigger on wider rims. That requires a drop in pressure. People are fortunately beginning to wake up to this. Show me a wheel that doesn't pulse at all at speed on a stand and I will show you a wheel in the distinct minority. Sometimes a wheel goes out of true. You do all you can to build every one of them right, and still it happens. I guarantee you, your wheel going out of true pissed Boyd off more than it pissed you off. That whole caring thing.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

November Dave said:


> Boyd's reputation speaks for itself, he's earnest, has good products, does a good job and raises the bar on himself and others, cares.


A competitor of Boyd's, whom I know from the internet, e-mailed me last night. He'd read this thread. He did something that he didn't have to do; he wrote this - "about Boyd's wheels – Boyd's a friend of mine and no one offers better customer service".


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> A competitor of Boyd's, whom I know from the internet, e-mailed me last night. He'd read this thread. He did something that he didn't have to do; he wrote this - "about Boyd's wheels – Boyd's a friend of mine and no one offers better customer service".


Mike T.

I'm sure Boyd is a good guy and this situation is a rare occurrence for Him. I actually regret even starting this discussion because I have no long term goal to wish his business any harm. If possible, I will delete my original post if that will help. Will that delete this entire thread?

I was simply frustrated with a new wheelset that did not perform to my expectations. Yes, I fell for all the marketing hype about wide rims. At least I didn't fall for the info commercial about losing 10 pounds in 5 days. However, I did not feel like I got good answers to my questions and came here to find them. I've learned that I should not do my research on the internet for wheels. It should be done at the bike shop. 

By the way, you talk about good customer service, I emailed a question to Rolwheels. The owner called me back!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Litespeed rider said:


> Mike T.
> I'm sure Boyd is a good guy and this situation is a rare occurrence for Him. I actually regret even starting this discussion because I have no long term goal to wish his business any harm. If possible, I will delete my original post if that will help. Will that delete this entire thread?
> I was simply frustrated with a new wheelset that did not perform to my expectations. Yes, I fell for all the marketing hype about wide rims. At least I didn't fall for the info commercial about losing 10 pounds in 5 days. However, I did not feel like I got good answers to my questions and came here to find them. I've learned that I should not do my research on the internet for wheels. It should be done at the bike shop.
> By the way, you talk about good customer service, I emailed a question to Rolwheels. The owner called me back!


I think the thread should be allowed to stand because the old saying "There's no such thing as bad publicity" can be sometimes true. IMO Boyd Wheels will probably come out of this situation better than when they went in because the positives, for him, will outweigh the negatives. And if everyone learns something from this thread (even you) it might make us all better consumers - by separating possible hype from actual benefit (I'm not saying that wider rims are hype, I wouldn't know), temper expectations, define our best source of supply (LBS? Mailorder?)

I agree with Coachboyd that it's impossible to please everyone but communication and customer service can truly affect any business and those who ignore it, do so at their own peril, even though it must take up a good chunk of every working day.

BTW - deleting your original post will not delete the thread. It will just delete what you wrote. And if someone has quoted you in their reply, your post still exists. Only moderators and administrators can delete whole threads - and that happens very rarely. And almost never for the old "foot in mouth" syndrome.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

For all your interjecting in this disagreement, I wonder if you've actually read the description of the wheelset on Boyd's website. It definitely oversells the features of the wheelset, and I can see why it would create expectations in a buyer that would easily lead to dissatisfaction. It essentially guarantees the wheels won't go out of true during the break-in period, and it hypes the rim's ability re vibration damping. Some of these appear to amount to factual claims that a dissatisfied buyer could likely contest in small claims court, and a lawyer would likely recommend Boyd ease off on some of the claims the product copy makes. Not allowing anything less than a 5 star review also distorts a buyer's expectations, and personally seems like a poor business practice. A review by a lawyer wouldn't be a bad idea for the entire site (e.g., the return policy is not properly stated). 



Mike T. said:


> I think the thread should be allowed to stand because the old saying "There's no such thing as bad publicity" can be sometimes true. IMO Boyd Wheels will probably come out of this situation better than when they went in because the positives, for him, will outweigh the negatives. And if everyone learns something from this thread (even you) it might make us all better consumers - by separating possible hype from actual benefit (I'm not saying that wider rims are hype, I wouldn't know), temper expectations, define our best source of supply (LBS? Mailorder?)
> 
> I agree with Coachboyd that it's impossible to please everyone but communication and customer service can truly affect any business and those who ignore it, do so at their own peril, even though it must take up a good chunk of every working day.
> 
> BTW - deleting your original post will not delete the thread. It will just delete what you wrote. And if someone has quoted you in their reply, your post still exists. Only moderators and administrators can delete whole threads - and that happens very rarely. And almost never for the old "foot in mouth" syndrome.


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## rredad (Nov 3, 2008)

It works well for me, and I feel I could probably drop another 5 lbs in the front tire, but I haven't tied it yet. I don't want a pinch flat on the front. I did try 85 in the rear and had a pinch flat, albeit I hit a large rock, but I've had no issues @90. 
Hope thing work out for you.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Actually, Boyd does not make a claim for a smoother ride. He does state that the wider rim allows for lower pressure and therefore less vibration. The problem is that in reading all the reviews of the wheels, many reviewers are making the claim that the ride is smooth. Claims such as the ride is like a magic carpet ride, the ride is superb - I run 120 psi, noticeably smoother and sturdier, the extra width helps with the ride comfort, ride smoother than the original wheel set. But, this same type of review on wide rims is all over the internet. It's not Boyd's problem that reviewers are saying these things. It's my problem for not trying out the wheels before purchasing. The wheels actually appear to be very well built and the slight out of true problem can happen to any wheelset. 


I'm going to give the wheelset another chance by dropping the pressure down to 70 front and 85 back. I sure hope that won't be a invitation to flat tires which I very rarely have and I'm also going to try to communicate with Boyd Cycling again. Obviously, others have a high regard for Boyd Wheels and I need to try again to get some better answers.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

I think what really came out of this discussion is that wide rims don't produce a smoother ride. The many claims on wheel sites should be questioned and a wheel purchaser must try out the wheels before committing.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Litespeed rider said:


> So, I'm going give up on this quest for answers.





Litespeed rider said:


> Obviously, others have a high regard for Boyd Wheels and I need to try again to get some better answers.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Not so hard to understand. There is no contradiction. I'm not seeking answers in this forum but I think Boyd Cycling deserves another chance to provide answers. Have you got it now?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Litespeed rider said:


> Actually, Boyd does not make a claim for a smoother ride. He does state that the wider rim allows for lower pressure and therefore less vibration. The problem is that in reading all the reviews of the wheels, many reviewers are making the claim that the ride is smooth. Claims such as the ride is like a magic carpet ride, the ride is superb - _*I run 120 psi, noticeably smoother and sturdier, the extra width helps with the ride comfort, ride smoother than the original wheel set*_. But, this same type of review on wide rims is all over the internet. It's not Boyd's problem that reviewers are saying these things. It's my problem for not trying out the wheels before purchasing. The wheels actually appear to be very well built and the slight out of true problem can happen to any wheelset.
> 
> 
> I'm going to give the wheelset another chance by dropping the pressure down to 70 front and 85 back. I sure hope that won't be a invitation to flat tires which I very rarely have and I'm also going to try to communicate with Boyd Cycling again. Obviously, others have a high regard for Boyd Wheels and I need to try again to get some better answers.


You must either not have any teeth left in your mouth, or ride on the world's most perfect road if you can in any way honestly claim that 120PSI is smooth.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Litespeed rider said:


> Not so hard to understand. There is no contradiction. I'm not seeking answers in this forum but I think Boyd Cycling deserves another chance to provide answers. Have you got it now?


You need to learn how to use the quote function. 

Your reply is another indication of a poe. Instead of taking responsibility, you invoke casuistry to pass the buck to another entity in the vain attempt that it will distract us.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

SauronHimself said:


> You need to learn how to use the quote function.
> 
> Your reply is another indication of a poe. Instead of taking responsibility, you invoke casuistry to pass the buck to another entity in the vain attempt that it will distract us.


How's this for the quote button?

I don't have a clue what a poe is but if I'm a poe, I sure hope I'm a good one.

I have taken responsibility for this situation. Have you not read my later responses? I even offered to delete the original post but was told it was better to leave it posted.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Litespeed rider said:


> Not so hard to understand. There is no contradiction. I'm not seeking answers in this forum but I think Boyd Cycling deserves another chance to provide answers. Have you got it now?


What answers do you need from Boyd now?


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

ergott said:


> What answers do you need from Boyd now?



please refer to post #6


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Wow you really got an ax to grind. Every question about the wheels you had was already answered. 

Did he attempt to resolve the issue with the wheel being out of true? Did you contact him before you tried to fix it yourself?


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

ergott said:


> Wow you really got an ax to grind. Every question about the wheels you had was already answered.
> 
> Did he attempt to resolve the issue with the wheel being out of true? Did you contact him before you tried to fix it yourself?



No axe here. I've stated that the out of true wheel is not a big issue for me. I true other wheels frequently. This issue was just annoying for a new wheelset.

Please notice that on a question like the "jumping wheel", the answer I was given talks about valve stems being a cause. I already stated that the condition is present without a tire and tube mounted. How does his answer address the question? The real question here is why was I given such a bogus answer? Will I be given answers like this for future questions? This is the heart of this discussion. I get enough of these kind of answers from politicians. There's not much more to discuss and I'd rather discuss something else. How about the death of Robin Williams. Now that is a real tragedy. He had 36 bikes and rode regularly.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Litespeed rider said:


> Please notice that on a question like the "jumping wheel", the answer I was given talks about valve stems being a cause. I already stated that the condition is present without a tire and tube mounted. How does his answer address the question?


Valve holes.



Litespeed rider said:


> The real question here is why was I given such a bogus answer? Will I be given answers like this for future questions?


Why do you consider it bogus? What criteria did you employ to determine that? You've already admitted that you don't know how modern wheels are built and that you refuse to learn the new tech, so I'm confused as to how you could have made a reasonable determination that the answers given were bogus.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Litespeed rider said:


> Got that quote down pat now!
> 
> He did not say valve holes. His words, "It can be caused by the valve of the inner tube as it throws the weight off by a few grams"
> 
> I really don't think I left the valve of the inner tube on the rim but since you don't seem to understand, I'll try the test again to make sure I don't leave the inner tube valve on the rim. I would think that if I left it on it would fly off from the centrifugal force. Wait a minute, how do you get the valve off the inner tube?


Valve holes create an imbalance in the rim's mass distribution.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

SauronHimself said:


> Valve holes.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you consider it bogus? What criteria did you employ to determine that? You've already admitted that you don't know how modern wheels are built and that you refuse to learn the new tech, so I'm confused as to how you could have made a reasonable determination that the answers given were bogus.


Got that quote down pat now!

He did not say valve holes. His words, "It can be caused by the valve of the inner tube as it throws the weight off by a few grams"

I really don't think I left the valve of the inner tube on the rim but since you don't seem to understand, I'll try the test again to make sure I don't leave the inner tube valve on the rim. I would think that if I left it on it would fly off from the centrifugal force. Wait a minute, how do you get the valve off the inner tube?


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

SauronHimself said:


> Valve holes create an imbalance in the rim's mass distribution.


I'm sure that is true, but that was not the answer I was given.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I think you've made your point that you're not happy with your purchase and have a case of buyer's remorse. Doesn't seem like there's anything to gain from repeating your complaints endlessly. 



Litespeed rider said:


> Got that quote down pat now!
> 
> He did not say valve holes. His words, "It can be caused by the valve of the inner tube as it throws the weight off by a few grams"
> 
> I really don't think I left the valve of the inner tube on the rim but since you don't seem to understand, I'll try the test again to make sure I don't leave the inner tube valve on the rim. I would think that if I left it on it would fly off from the centrifugal force. Wait a minute, how do you get the valve off the inner tube?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Litespeed rider said:


> No axe here. I've stated that the out of true wheel is not a big issue for me. I true other wheels frequently. This issue was just annoying for a new wheelset.
> 
> Please notice that on a question like the "jumping wheel", the answer I was given talks about valve stems being a cause. I already stated that the condition is present without a tire and tube mounted. How does his answer address the question? The real question here is why was I given such a bogus answer? Will I be given answers like this for future questions? This is the heart of this discussion.


Enough with the passive aggressive BS there chief. We can all see how disingenuous you are and regardless of the original intent you're only making yourself look bad at this point.

Stop playing poor little me I just have questions and man up and be straight forward (actually just go away is a better option).

If you think your wheels suck shout it from the moutain tops if you wish. But this little act of "I'm just want answers" is really see-through. On one hand you claim to have all sorts of knowledge and experience and on the other you need to ask what makes a wheel hop? Please. A third grader who knows nothing about bicycles knows the answer to that.

not to mention your questions have been answered several times. Do the answers matter anyway? If the hop is to much for you to accept do you care what causes it? Then stop trying to mask a complaint as a question.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Coolhand, would you mind doing an IP comparison between Litespeed Rider and ChiroVette?

Let's review what those two have in common:

-Both are relatively new users.
-Both are older folks who have ridden for a long time and only have recently started tapping the higher end market.
-Both make verbose posts and always appear to want the last word.
-Both have strikingly similar writing styles.
-Both have an incessant penchant for casuistry.
-Both resort to sarcasm when pressed to sh1t or get off the pot.

It will be the biggest coincidence if they're not the same person.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> I think you've made your point that you're not happy with your purchase and have a case of buyer's remorse. Doesn't seem like there's anything to gain from repeating your complaints endlessly.


I'm repeating it for those that don't seem to understand. I'm okay with the purchase.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Enough with the passive aggressive BS there chief. We can all see how disingenuous you are and regardless of the original intent you're only making yourself look bad at this point.
> 
> Stop playing poor little me I just have questions and man up and be straight forward (actually just go away is a better option).
> 
> ...


Never said the wheels suck. Never said I was knowledgeable able the design of newer wheels.

Obviously, the wheels hop because they are out of balance. The question is and always has been why are these particular wheels so far out of balance. This has not been answered in any post. I like to know why and that is why I care.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

SauronHimself said:


> Coolhand, would you mind doing an IP comparison between Litespeed Rider and ChiroVette?
> 
> Let's review what those two have in common:
> 
> ...


Sorry that my bit of sarcasm concerning your reading comprehension upset you. 

Sorry also to tell you that checking my IP will not connect me to ChiroVette. Not very difficult to hide a IP address anyway.

Please respond and then you can have the very last word if it makes you happy. I will not respond to you again.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> a case of buyer's remorse


I'll bet seller's remorse has kicked in already.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Litespeed rider said:


> Never said the wheels suck. Never said I was knowledgeable able the design of newer wheels.
> 
> Obviously, the wheels hop because they are out of balance. The question is and always has been why are these particular wheels so far out of balance. This has not been answered in any post. I like to know why and that is why I care.


I answered your question already. Not sure why it wasn't sufficient enough for you.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

ergott said:


> I answered your question already. Not sure why it wasn't sufficient enough for you.


You not angry enough.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

This thread is starting to deliver all sorts of good! It started off slow, Boyd almost put the fire out and then all hell breaks loose.

Sauron, you are good buddy, very good!


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Sauron

-Both have an incessant penchant for casuistry.

Thanks,, not too often I have to go the dictionary.. 

Regards


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Litespeed rider said:


> Please notice that on a question like the "jumping wheel", the answer I was given talks about valve stems being a cause. I already stated that the condition is present without a tire and tube mounted. How does his answer address the question? The real question here is why was I given such a bogus answer?


Guess I'm a little late here, been out riding. 

On wheels set up for tubeless tires, the valve stem stays in place on the rim with the tire off. How's that for a non-bogus answer. Before you fire up the fingers and and tell everyone you clearly stated this or that, read on. 

Here's a more in depth look at what's going on with *bare wheel unbalance* on a truing stand, which is, *not a valid way to measure wheel balance*. 

For a long time now, rim manufacturers have chosen to locate the valve stem hole directly opposite the pinned joint in the rim. This is because the pinned joint area of the rim weighs more, and having the valve stem 180 degrees opposite tends cancel the extra weight, so as to balance the wheel with the tire on. 

Of course, for this to work, the valve stem needs to be in place for the balance to occur. So in your case, with a naked rim on a truing stand, you'll see a larger imbalance than with the valve stem/tube/tire on the rim. This is to be expected. 
And honestly this is not rocket science, anyone who has passed high school pyhsics should be able to figure this out. 

You'll also notice you can buy tubes with valve stem of varying length - the longer the brass valve stem, the more it weighs.
This tends to work out, as the pinned area on wide / deep aluminum rims typically weighs more than more narrow shallow rims. But deep rims require longer valve stems, so the two effects tend to cancel. 
If you are inclined, you could experiment with valve stem length, going longer if you need more weight on the stem, shorter if you need less. Or use small taped on weights to do a static balance, if having perfectly balanced wheels matters a lots to you. 
If your intent is nitpicking the precise words of an email response, this answer won't help you. But I think you'll agree the valve stem is most certainly involved in answering your question, and to get why is not a huge mental stretch.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Z'mer said:


> Guess I'm a little late here, been out riding.
> 
> On wheels set up for tubeless tires, the valve stem stays in place on the rim with the tire off. How's that for a non-bogus answer. Before you fire up the fingers and and tell everyone you clearly stated this or that, read on.
> 
> ...




Z’mer,

Thank you for the informative post. The more technical aspects of the wheel issue is the direction I wanted this discussion to go. I’d like to state that after reading posts such as Mike T’s, I do agree that the out of balance condition will not be a safety issue. Boyd Cycling also stated this but did not go into any details. I'm just very curious about how these new wheels are different than older wheels. Your post goes into more details than the post by Ergott which was also very helpful in understanding out of balance.

However, since the wheel is still out of balance when a tire and tube are installed, this got me thinking about doing some experiments. I placed washers on the valve stem and spun the wheel up to see how much weight is needed to balance the wheel. It took four washers which weighed a total of 19 grams before the wheel came into balance. The wheel has a tube with a 52 mm stem. What is difficult for me to understand is why the Rolwheel which is very similar in design but 20 mm wide, 28mm high and about 140 grams heavier does not have the out of balance condition. Are the wheels using different techniques to join the rim? I tried to get more technical information about the rim from Boyd Cycling without success.

That being said, my next experiment is the one that totally baffles me. I thought that it would be interesting to see if the front wheel shows a lot of imbalance too but how do I spin the front wheel fast enough to produce the condition? I got my 30,000 rpm router out and installed a rubber sanding drum. I slowly brought the router up to speed pressing the drum against the tire. It definitely reached the speed of the rear wheel tests. Surprisingly, I saw very little out of balance. I was able to balance it with only one washer instead of four.

I don’t know if is rocket science and a high school physics student can figure this out but I sure can’t.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

The Rol seems less out of balance because there is more material in the walls of the rim and less of a difference between that and the joint. Lighter rims (comparing similar profiles) will have a comparatively heavier joint.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

ChiroVet...err... I mean Litespeed. Enjoy your rims and give this a rest.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

9W9W said:


> ChiroVet...err... I mean Litespeed. Enjoy your rims and give this a rest.


I don't know who this ChiroVet guy is but I can assure you that I'm not him. You guys don't seem to like anyone new entering your turf.

I had some long distance rides this week on the wheels and I'm starting to enjoy them. I was able to play around with the air pressure and tried some of the pressures others have recommended here. Turns out that I can run 75 in the front and 90 in the back and the ride is almost as smooth as the Rolwheels. I tried to go under 90 and got two flats. Wheels stayed true too.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Litespeed rider said:


> I don't know who this ChiroVet guy is but I can assure you that I'm not him. You guys don't seem to like anyone new entering your turf.


Edit. Nevermind.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

ergott said:


> The Rol seems less out of balance because there is more material in the walls of the rim and less of a difference between that and the joint. Lighter rims (comparing similar profiles) will have a comparatively heavier joint.


Good point. Do you think that if one of the rims is welded and perhaps the other is pinned that could cause the difference?


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> If you keep posting I think you'll find 'new' has nothing to do with it.


Not much need to continue this and I can assure you that I will not return. I started this discussion in a irritable state of mind which was the wrong thing to do but, some of you guys have far worse attitude issues and seem to read into every post things that are not there. 

Thanks to those of you that had constructive responses. Hope you have sunny days and tailwinds.


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## Dream Plus (Feb 4, 2004)

Building the wheels with the newer rims seems to be even easier(to me). I built two sets with Kinlin XR270's and Sapin CxRay spokes, and the build was much less time consuming than I remember from the old days. Just needed to hold those flat spokes while tensioning to keep them from twisting.


Litespeed rider said:


> I built wheels long ago when the rims were completely different. I have no desire to learn and study about wheel building with these new very rigid rims. I'd rather be riding anyway then in my shop behind a truing stand.
> 
> I agree with you about there being more to this situation. I have thought about it and realize that the problem here is me. I made some major mistakes in purchasing these wheels.
> 
> ...


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Litespeed rider said:


> Good point. Do you think that if one of the rims is welded and perhaps the other is pinned that could cause the difference?


Could be. I don't have either in my hand and I'm not sure off the top of my head which method weighs less (might not be that clear cut).


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

The OP seems to have gone (his OP is deleted) but let's hope that my verbose post *in this Wheels forum's stickie* will help put anyone's mind at rest in the future.


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## Zerort (Jun 23, 2014)

Want a smoother ride - buy a carbon wheelset. Sure they are more expensive, but they sure ride nice. Just went from a great set of Rolf Prima Vigor alphas, to Enve 3.4s.

I ride the same tires at the same pressure and yes the Enve's run a ton smoother.

To me, the Rolfs spun much easier (no testing, just my impression), but they definitely were harsher (no testing, just my impression). Each has their own benefits, but I will be running the Enve's from now on.

One other point - the Rolfs did not bounce, hop, or whatever you want to call it. However the Enve's do in fact wobble up and down (on the stand). I don't really care cause they are just soooooo nice.

Oh, for all those heroes out their that might say I work at Enve. Uh no.


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <wontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <wontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <wontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I’m the guy who started this discussion. I thought that some of you might like to know how the wheels are doing after 3000 miles. Of course, there will be those of you who will again attack me. 

I was very irritated when I wrote the first post which I eventually deleted. The wheels were for my long distance bike and my main reason for buying them was for a smoother ride from the wider rim and lower air pressure. This was a false assumption on my part and I realize now that I simply bought the wrong wheel set. The wheels ride very harsh and transmit any road surface irregularities through the bike. After I put about 800 miles on the wheels, I knew that I needed another wheel set. I got the chance to ride a set of Hed Ardennes and was very impressed with them and planned to buy them. However, when I attempted to sell the Boyd’s, I found that the market for used Boyd wheels is very limited. I only had one offer of $225 and since the wheels cost $700 I could not justify that much of a loss. So, I’ve kept the wheels and I have tried to deal with the issues.

In order to achieve a smoother ride, I have experimented with various air pressures and find that 95 back and 85 front works the best. Anything lower will cause more flats. Unfortunately, I’m a hefty 189 pounds. The wheels have improved the bikes handling. No doubt about that. The bike feels more secure going into corners and on rainy days I seem to have better traction. They are very stiff and I’m sure that is why they ride so harsh. Out of the saddle efforts appear to get the power to the ground very well. I have a set of Rol Volant wheels with the same spoke count and they ride much smoother but they don’t produce the same secure feeling as the Boyd’s. 

Another issue I had with the Boyd’s was the front wheel coming out of true. Unfortunately, this has continued to be a problem. The first two times the problem area was around the stem hole. This last time was directly opposite the stem hole. A fairly mountainous ride seems to have caused this last problem. I have dial indicators on my truing stand and it shows about 30 thousands out. I suppose that would be acceptable to some riders but not for me. I think that the front wheel did not get stress relieved properly. The back has been fine and is very true. Usually it’s the other way around. I hope to find a shop that is familiar with this wheel and can true it properly and check the tension. I do have some longevity concerns because the only two riders I have met that ride Boyd wheels have both had broken rear wheel spokes. They have the lower priced wheels.

So, it comes down to the fact I should have ridden the wheel set before purchasing. My mistake. This wheel set would be great for entry level racing. It would be hard to find anything better at this price point for that purpose. But, for recreational cyclists, I would suggest looking elsewhere.


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## ClarkinHawaii (Feb 28, 2010)

deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

I've been more than pleased with my Boyd Altamonts... I bought them to put on my new road bike, but after picking them up decided to try them on my 'Cross bike too. With some Michelin Pro Mud IIs and the extra width of the rim it totally changed the feel of my CX bike over the Shimano wheels I had been using before.

My rear wheel went a little out of true over the course of about 7 races, but I was running about 30psi and cased more than one or two barriers so I'm not surprised....any wheel would have. I will say I was worried about my wheels being unbalanced too...sitting on the wall I noticed one day that the wheels would perpetually spin back and fourth like a pendulum... but I've never noticed any affect while riding so whatever.

Boyd had also been great at answering all of my questions prior to my purchase.
I recommended the wheels to one of my teammates who podiumed at a local CX race and got a 35% off Boyd coupon as a result. I understand she ordered some 44mm clinchers instead. Unfortunately she looked at her bill and realized she's only gotten 30% off instead of the 35%; but she's decided not to "Look a gift horse in the mouth" and complain about it, realizing that the wheels are a good deal at any price below retail!...I'm sure if she brought it to their attention they'd correct it anyways!


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

Twiggy
Glad you are pleased with the Altamonts. It sounds like you are using them more for their intended purpose than I am. Interesting that you noticed how unbalanced the wheels are too. I don’t think other readers understand how much the wheels are unbalanced. But, it’s only my back wheel and not the front.

I finally took the wheels into a bikeshop to be checked. I pointed out to the mechanic the three spokes that I have adjusted to get the wheel fairly true. I only tightened two of the spokes 1/4 turn and the last one almost 3/4 turn because the wheel was out 60 thousands and the 3/4 turn got it to 30 thousands. He checked the tension of each spoke and found the tension to be very inconsistent. His opinion is that the wheel was not stress relieved properly. Problems like this happen in all companies and I guess I was just the unlucky one. He did a good job of truing the wheel and now it’s better than it was when it was new. I’ve only put a few hundred miles on it but it seems to be fine now. Strange thing is that when he checked the back wheel, it was perfect.


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## RoadCube (Nov 22, 2006)

The front wheel problem is puzzling. All my wheel issues over the years has been with the rear. Please correct me Mike T, but the front wheel is almost never an issue.
You have the Boyd set as a back-up; would you send the front wheel back to Boyd cycles for truing/ corrective action?
RC


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

RoadCube said:


> The front wheel problem is puzzling. All my wheel issues over the years has been with the rear. Please correct me Mike T, but the front wheel is almost never an issue.
> You have the Boyd set as a back-up; would you send the front wheel back to Boyd cycles for truing/ corrective action?
> RC


Neither front or rear wheel are expected to have issues staying true if they are built properly. If we are to take what Litespeed is saying for face value, the front wheel does not appear to have been properly build from the start. It happens although it shouldn't. What is puzzling to me is why Litespeed did not sent the wheel back to Boyd to fix. I have not personally dealt with Boyd ever but from what I hear about him I expect he would have taken care of it..


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

RoadCube said:


> Please correct me Mike T, but the front wheel is almost never an issue.


No front wheel, in the history of the bicycle, has ever had a problem


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> No front wheel, in the history of the bicycle, has ever had a problem


This statement is so bold it discredits itself.

(for the benefit of the newbs reading this thread and scratching their head)


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dcgriz said:


> This statement is so bold it discredits itself.
> (for the benefit of the newbs reading this thread and scratching their head)


The big green smiley-face at the end of my sentence must not be showing up on your screen.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

When I read your reply I thought it was a disguised joke 'cause I know you know better but considering the nature of this thread I thought it was best to comment on it because I believe the question was innocent. 
Enough miscommunication and misconceptions are going around on this thread already.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dcgriz said:


> When I read your reply I thought it was a disguised joke 'cause I know you know better but considering the nature of this thread I thought it was best to comment on it because I believe the question was innocent.
> Enough miscommunication and misconceptions are going around on this thread already.


I think had I written "Front bike wheels never give problems" it would have been untrue and misleading. But (to me anyway) the outrageous statement of "No front wheel, in the history of the bicycle, has ever had a problem" would be construed by anyone (ok, most people) with any sense of humor, as a joke - especially if they have their Smilies turned on.

But anyone who knows wheels will admit, front wheels don't have nearly the same, and frequency of issues, that rear wheels do - especially multi-gear cassette-carrying wheels.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> ....................
> But anyone who knows wheels will admit, front wheels don't have nearly the same, and frequency of issues, that rear wheels do - especially multi-gear cassette-carrying wheels.


Of course they don't but ONLY IF they have been properly built. 

Litespeed stated in his latest post that his LBS found significantly uneven tensions throughout the front wheel; we have no way of knowing the validity of that statement nor I want to resurface the Litespeed-Boyd argument which I believe has deeper agendas than presented here. I do however wanted to respond to poster RoadCube question on the question's face value and that's why I bothered.

Nevertheless, enough undeserving attention has been given to this thread. This will be my last post on this particular thread as I do not see it's continuation of any further value to anybody involved, directly or indirectly.

Over and out ....


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## RoadCube (Nov 22, 2006)

Mike T, DC and I are in agreement:
1. Why did the OP not send front wheel back to Boyd?
2. The front wheel coming untrue from the start is unusual.
RC


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

RoadCube said:


> Mike T, DC and I are in agreement:
> 1. Why did the OP not send front wheel back to Boyd?
> 2. The front wheel coming untrue from the start is unusual.
> RC


The end. Next topic!!


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## Litespeed rider (Aug 10, 2014)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <wontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <wontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <wontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> There are three reasons to the question why I did not return the wheel to Boyd Cycling.
The first is that in my communications with Boyd Cycling, at no time was it recommended or suggested that I return the wheel. 


Secondly, I wanted another viewpoint as to what the problem was with the wheel and an evaluation as to whether I would have future problems with the wheel.


The third reason is the hassle of returning the wheel, especially since I no longer had the shipping box.


Concerning the second point, I told the mechanic of my concern about reliability since the only two riders I have encountered with Boyd wheels have broken spokes. The mechanic stated that to him it was a average wheel and he did not foresee any future out of true problems He said the back wheel was very well built. He did state when I told him the cost of the wheels that I should have spent a few hundred more and gotten Hed wheels which he really likes.


So, what I’m taking away from this situation is that I made mistakes in how I selected the wheels. I will never buy a set of wheels without trying them out first. Perhaps I should just take some of the wise advice this forum has produced and just build the wheels myself.


I should add that I think this wheel issue is probably very abnormal for Boyd Cycling. No company can produce 100% perfect products.
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