# Paris Carbon owners - please help



## KennyG (Mar 6, 2007)

Hi. I am an avid road/MTB cyclist in the market for a new road machine. I have narrowed my search to the Paris Carbon and Colnago C50 (BMC Pro Machine is still alive on my final cut as well, but I will probably go Italian). I have not ridden any of these frames, but in researching various reviews/forums I have seen a few consistent patterns. 

1. Seems the Paris Carbon is a faster steering bike than the C50.
2.  Although the Paris Carbon has a claimed weight that is less than the C50's claimed weight, it appears they are pretty equal in that area based on actual frame/fork weights.
3. The Paris Carbon seems to have some complaints about cosmetic issues-YIKES!

I am a light rider (150) who loves to climb and ride fast. I don't do much organized racing anymore, but I still do fast group rides that are basically races without the fees or official results. I want a frame that is stiff (not really looking for high comfort) and precise. I am currently on a Klein Quantum and love the stiffness and razor sharp handling. 

At this point, I am leaning slightly towards the Paris Carbon , but would like some feedback from any Paris Carbon owners who could spare a few minutes. How do you feel about your Paris Carbon? What do you like/not like about it? I would especially like to hear from anyone who has ridden both a Paris Carbon and C50. Also, with the Paris Carbon cosmetic issues - are these freak occurrences, or a pattern due to lower quality finishes? I haven't head any C50 owners complain about finish issues. At this price point, I think cosmetic issues are inexcusable. Does a the Pinarello warranty cover finish problems within the first couple of years? Thanks in advance for any info!


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## apark (Mar 12, 2007)

I would highly recommend the Paris Carbon -- it is the most solid and best handling carbon frame I have ridden. I have never owned a C50 but I went through the same dilemma you are going through prior to deciding on the Paris. However, my research in speaking with owners of the C50 and Paris told me that the Paris is the more "solid" handler and stiffer bike. Btw, it appears Bicycling magazine just voted the Paris Carbon as the best road race bike in their current issue.

One thing I should mention is that I first purchased the 2007 Dogma FPX prior to the Paris Carbon - the reason I purchased the Paris is ultimately due to the fact that I was so impressed with my Dogma FPX that I wanted to try Pinarello's carbon flagship.

I must admit, however, that I absolutely prefer my Dogma FPX. The Paris is my everyday bike now, with the Doggie being my perfect weather bike.


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

Kennyg, it's possible the cosmetic issues (decals lifting off the base paint under the clearcoat) has been remedied if you get the latest 2007 frame. The way to tell is:

1. The Pinarello logo on the chainstay has been moved inside the stay, and 
2. The front fork has been masked during painting to show some carbon fiber on the inner side of the fork

I prefer the front fork fully painted, but I guess Pinarello did this to showcase the carbon fiber (only thing I can tell). If you look at the latest pics of the bike Valverde rides, it looks like this.

In any case, the paint jobs on the Pinarellos are spotty at best (I just visited an LBS over the weekend). If you could hand-pick a frame that is best. Unfortunately, who has a whole slew of Paris Carbons in Team colors in stock in your size? Most guys have to go mail order. But what to look for is a nice glossy finish with no orange peel or heavy sags. There will be a lint speck or two here and there (just hope it's not on the 'money' (crank) side of the bike which is shown on pics). Also look for a frame that has a good overall layout of carbon fiber twill, with no haphazard areas. I've seen these areas on the down tubes on Paris Carbons (it's fairly common at the BB and seat tube junction).

But if you luck out on a nice frame (Team colors + Bora Ultras are a match made in Heaven), the Paris Carbon is the sexiest bike out there, definitely the Ferrari of the peloton!


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## apark (Mar 12, 2007)

KennyG,

Based on Clevor's information (very helpful), it seems my Paris is a 2007 production model - as you can see in my posted pics, the Pinarello decals on the chainstays are on the inside and I also have the nude carbon window on the insides of the fork legs. I can attest that both my Pinarellos have gorgeous paint jobs which I've combed over so it appears they fixed the issue after complaints in the 2006 run.

Just make sure you get it from an authorized dealer that you trust, not a random mail order place. Hope that helps.


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

apark said:


> I can attest that both my Pinarellos have gorgeous paint jobs which I've combed over so it appears they fixed the issue after complaints in the 2006 run.


Nope, I've seen 2007 Paris frames with bum paint jobs (as well as misaligned twill weave), so it's still a matter of luck unless you can see what you buy. It's the same way with Colnagos; lint is a big problem, but not so much orange peel. Durability of Colnago and Pinarello paint has always been an issue, and time will tell whether it's been rectified.

To be fair, I've yet to see a bike frame with NO lint; I also see it on my Giant TCR Comp 1 and Turner Burner ATB frame in Candy Blue.

Back to the Paris Carbon, all you can hope for is that the paint lifting issues have been resolved.


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## KennyG (Mar 6, 2007)

Apark, 

Nice bikes. Just curoius, why do you prefer the Dogma over the Paris Carbon? Is there a difference in ride quality? Since the P.C. is lighter and less expensive, I'm not sure why I would not go in that direction unless there is a big difference in ride quality. I have heard the Dogma is stiffer, but I think the stiffness of the P.C. would be just fine for me, as I am only 150lbs and not a sprinter. The unusual frame material of the Dogma worries me a little also - why doesn't anyone else use magnesium?


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## KennyG (Mar 6, 2007)

Clevor,

Thanks for the info. By the way, what do you mean by "lint" and "orange peel". I am not really worried about slight imperfections in the carbon weave. My main concearn is that the paint/decals won't discolor or be prone to flaking or peeling. Thanks.


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## poshscot (Dec 14, 2004)

I just ordered my Paris FP in black and red with record and lightweights. 2-3 weeks to delivery seems so long - probably as i am so excited. i wouldnt be concerned about the imperfections in the weave - its just part of the manufacturing process. my rev-x wheels have loads of flaws in hte weave but they have stood up to nearly 10 years abuse.

i have seen the previous thread regarding paint/lacquer lifting issues and i am not sure what to think - other than most of the lacquer has come off hte soles of 2 pairs of shoes and it certainly hasnt affected the performance. and lets face it no matter how much you look after your bike its gonna get chipped and scrated eventually...

good luck with your choice Kenny, and remember how lucky you are to have to make such and awful decision :wink:


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

KennyG said:


> Clevor,
> 
> Thanks for the info. By the way, what do you mean by "lint" and "orange peel". I am not really worried about slight imperfections in the carbon weave. My main concearn is that the paint/decals won't discolor or be prone to flaking or peeling. Thanks.


I've done automotive refinishing so perhaps I'm a bit jaded. It's actually not easy to put on a nice flowout coat with no 'orange peel'. It depends on several factors: quality of the paint gun, consistency of the paint, skill of the painter. Most custom auto paint jobs are sanded down (anyway) with fine grit sandpaper and buffed out to a flawless shine with polishing compound. Of course lint on the clear coat is due to the paint booth being dirty.

C50s (I have one) tend to have really nice top coats relative to Pinarellos. Very little orange peel, but depends on the paint job. Lint can be a big problem.

As far as the uniformity of the twill weave, sorry, but I've seen absolutely gorgeous bikes with flawless layout - coming out of Taiwan. A Felt I saw in an LBS is an example. Considering you can pay up to $4400 for a C50 and around $4800 U.S. for a Paris Carbon in Europe or Asia, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth . . . lint on my Giant is not a big deal considering the frame costs around 1/3rd or 1/4th of the price of a Paris Carbon.

In regards to twill weave on wheelsets, yes, the Lightweights look horrible in places, but if you look at a set of Campy Boras or HED Stingers, the twill weave is pretty much flawless. Reynolds and ZIPP don't even bother with a cosmetic layer anymore. But when I pay big bucks for carbon fiber, the part better well look like it!

It's only aesthetics anyway, but considering the bucks involved, you expect better.


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## apark (Mar 12, 2007)

Hi KennyG - to answer your question about why I prefer the Dogma (only slightly), yes there is a noticeable difference in ride quality in terms of stiffness and "solidness". I can't say whether an extra 25lbs (I'm 175lbs) makes one notice it that much more, but I do notice that even when sitting and climbing the same climb on both bikes, I feel even less energy is being wasted on my Dogma than on my Paris. I do admit that some of this may be psychological, but there really is a difference. Don't get me wrong - I love my Paris also and I have zero regrets - the Paris is probably more solid than any other carbon bike out there.

Re: the weight, I was skeptical about the Dogma's weight also -- however, now that the "FPX" is 150g lighter than the "FP", even with the beefier rear stays and fork, the difference between the Paris and Dogma is barely noticeable. After having ridden both, I'm no longer a believer that frame weight makes much difference - I think the real weight difference is felt in the rotational weight of the wheels you are riding, especially on climbs. On an Ultimate Digital scale at the shop, my Dogma weighs in at 15.98 lbs while my Paris weighs in at 15.51 - they are 56cm frames with exactly the same parts (Actually the Paris has a lighter seatpost) so if you ride a smaller size, you should be able to do better.

Re: the magnesium, the reason other manufacturers stay away from it is supposedly the difficulty of the welding process - magnesium apparently burns much hotter and faster than other metals, so it takes special know-how in order to get it right. According to Competitive Cyclist, "Other than the legendary difficulty experienced by framebuilders in using Magnesium, it's a material with no downside". See: http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT&PRODUCT.ID=3669 for full review.

Lastly, not that this should affect your decision, but Pinarello offers a mere 2 year warranty for the Dogmas and an even shorter 1 year warranty for the Paris. Big difference when considering I almost exclusively rode Trek OCLVs with lifetime warranties until these Pinarellos. I do believe however that if the problem does not manifest itself in the first year over a few thousand miles, chances are slim that an inherent defect will show up after warranty expiration.

Hope that helps. Good luck - you can't go wrong with the Paris.


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## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

I’ve never ridden a C50, but I used to own a C40 and now own a Paris Carbon. I assume the C50 has similar ride characteristics to the C40? As far as overall ride comfort and descending go, the C40 was one of the frontrunners. I have no complaints about the Paris Carbon in these categories, but I do think the C40 was just a titch better. I believe the Paris Carbon is a little stiffer than the C40 as I don’t get chain rub on the FD with the <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Paris Carbon</st1></st1:city> where it didn’t take much effort to make the C40 rub in the smallest three cogs. 
<o></o><o></o>
I had a 2002 57cm C40 and my 2006 <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Pari</st1>s</st1:city> Carbon is a 56cm frame. Give or take a little they basically weigh the same ~1150g. With a Record drivetrain, ZG Brakes, Pulsion Cranks and Neutron wheels, my Paris Carbon comes in at ~16.2lbs (incl pedals and cages).<o></o>
<o></o>
I believe the <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Paris</st1></st1:city> Carbon might have a little longer head tube and slightly less trail than the C50. The trail on the Paris Carbon’s (most sizes) is still larger than most of the other manufacturers out there, but not as large as Colnago.<o></o>
<o></o>
If I was working on short list right now, I think both of these frames would be on it. BTW – No cosmetic issues whatsoever with my Paris Carbon. I have no regrets whatsoever about buying the Paris Carbon, but I don't think I would with the C50 either. They both fit my riding style incredibly well. I’m going to cop out and say get the one that fits the best.<o></o>


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

Here's an example of 'poor' twill layout, and from the Illes Balears decal on the chainstay, looks like it's a special frame from the factory!

The Paris Carbon triangles are made in the Far East and finished in Italy, BTW; Colnago claims their C50s are still made in Italy. However I'm not too happy about the twill layout on the chainstays of my C50 either . . .

This doesn't explain why a lot of Taiwanese frames like the Felt have pretty flawless layout.


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## Stephencl (Dec 21, 2005)

My understanding was that the F4:13 rear triangle was made in the far east, but that the entire Paris Carbon was made in Italy. Can anyone verify?

Trying to decide between the Dogma and the Paris C right now.


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

Stephencl said:


> My understanding was that the F4:13 rear triangle was made in the far east, but that the entire Paris Carbon was made in Italy. Can anyone verify?


It was previously known the F4:13 front triangles were sourced in the Far East. But a recent article in Velonews or CycleSport America on 2007 Pinarellos did not discriminate between the frames; it said outright that front triangles are made there, with the exception of the Montello (which uses Toyota carbon fiber). The latter is made in house in Italy.

I was just in an LBS over the weekend and in regards to my previous post on what looks like poor twill layout, well, pretty much all the frames look like that, Pinarellos and other brands. I saw the same thing on Looks. Consider it the handiwork of being 'hand made'. Sorta like the mistakes by the painter on Colnago paint jobs. 

The Pinarellos and Operas have swoopy bends in the forks and seat/chainstays and in addition, difficult contours and 3D molding around the seattube and BB junctions. It's impossible to lay out the twill in perfect fashion. Some monocoque frames have broad 'flanks' at the seattube and BB junction, e.g., Giants, and carbon fiber can be laid out unidirectional there. One functional purpose of avoiding 3D contours is this aids in aerodynamics (Giant does a lot of wind tunnel testing).

Because of this, Pinarellos SHOULD cost more than C50s and Looks to manufacture. The latter frames use lugged joints, and once all the tubes are cut to size, you or I can assemble the front triangles like PVC tubing, and it should only take maybe 10 minutes using a jig. There is no cosmetic layer of carbon fiber to painstakingly align.


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## Aussie Carl (Jan 11, 2006)

I thought the twill under the surface lacquer was purely cosmetic. The layup on my Opera Leonardo FP is perfect. It is one of the reasons I bought it. The workmanship is exceptional. If I were to get one of the bike frames photographed above I wouldn't be too happy even if it doesn't affect the quality of the bikes construction and it's performance.


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## gerard (Apr 8, 2006)

Before you buy a Pinarello take a look at my thread Carbon Paris problems,I've had 5 pinarello's and had 3 that failed with in 2 years and man are they slow to replace usually they took 4 to 8 months to get them. I have gone to a Trek Madone 6.9-SSL and that handles way better then any Pinarello I've owned so take a look at Trek I know it's tempting to go to something different but I'll never touch a Pinarello again !!!!! way over priced for what you get and there paint jobs rough as gut's not one of mine was good mate head for the hills there after sales service is also simply Rat ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## poshscot (Dec 14, 2004)

Aussie Carl said:


> I thought the twill under the surface lacquer was purely cosmetic. The layup on my Opera Leonardo FP is perfect. It is one of the reasons I bought it. The workmanship is exceptional. If I were to get one of the bike frames photographed above I wouldn't be too happy even if it doesn't affect the quality of the bikes construction and it's performance.


i have just been to my lbs to look at my new frame that has just arrived. i did have a look at the twill and i couldnt see any 'poor layout'. maybe i am just lucky but to be honest i was too stunned by how beautiful it is in the flesh (yes i bought it with out ever having seen one for real). 

the saddle,bars, stem etc have arrived along with the ultra shamals but i gotta wait another week for the record gruppo and lightweights to arrive so it can be built. really cannot wait.


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