# Grabbing a wheel during a mountain climb? Why? Seriously.



## SlowMo (Apr 18, 2006)

I was watching a race the other day when there was a break of about 5 riders. I don't recall the category of the climb, but it was a lengthy, steep grade. I noticed one of the guys shot off the front, then started traversing a bit. The next guy jumps on his wheel, sticking with him. 

I don't get it? If you're climbing, other than to show that you can stick with them for mental purposes, isn't that a bit of excess use of energy when you could actually use it to simply ride alongside (in a straight line) rather than traversing? Again, I realize it was steep, but they weren't doing that until he made his break. I don't get it. 

Inquiring minds want to know.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

It is a bit psychological. but there are other factors like (insert anything here)


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

SlowMo said:


> ...show that you can stick with them for mental purposes...


^this^

Also, it's just sort of instinct to hold a wheel.


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

Andrea138 said:


> ^this^
> 
> Also, it's just sort of instinct to hold a wheel.


I obviously don't know if it was windy or not, but sitting on someone else's wheel up a climb with a breeze (and they are probably going nearly twice as fast as I can go up a hill) it definitely helps to have someone break that for you and you get to save some energy!


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## lucer0 (Apr 13, 2007)

Its psychological for me - if there's someone right in front of me, I'm gonna keep up with them until it becomes bad strategy or I literally can't keep up their pace.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

much easier to follow a pace than set it. and you know how people in general always get ticked off about someone grabbing a draft off them? yeah. same principle. 

plus its easier to come around than continue to look back waiting for the guy whos had it easy while you set the pace on the front.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

weltyed said:


> much easier to follow a pace than set it. and you know how people in general always get ticked off about someone grabbing a draft off them? yeah. same principle.
> 
> plus its easier to come around than continue to look back waiting for the guy whos had it easy while you set the pace on the front.


That's what I've found. If I let the best climber in our club set the pace, I can stay with him up the climb, and even compete for the "KoM" sprint at the top. If I have to set the pace, it is much, much harder to "win" at those things.


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## Doctor Who (Feb 22, 2005)

Pros can also ride at a speed uphill that drafting can actually do something.

But yeah, the big thing is to let someone set the pace and if you're behind them, you can also react better to any moves.


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## chiefinspector (Jul 4, 2007)

*drafting*

time trial sites and triathlon sites talk about the benes of drafting, even at uphill professional speeds.


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## PG_Gary (Jan 21, 2008)

chiefinspector said:


> time trial sites and triathlon sites talk about the benes of drafting, even at uphill professional speeds.


Why would either group be concerned with drafting? With the exception of a few specific races (Olympics, Commonwealth Games, World Championships), it's illegal for both groups to draft.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Drafting definitely comes into play as the slope constantly changes, it's not like going up a parking ramp.


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## foxadam (Mar 3, 2007)

Doctor Who said:


> *Pros can also ride at a speed uphill that drafting can actually do something.*
> 
> But yeah, the big thing is to let someone set the pace and if you're behind them, you can also react better to any moves.


+1

If you've been a spectator at a pro race in the mountains, you'll know first hand how blazingly fast these guys are up these hills. Trust me, you have absolutely nothing to compare to - they are getting a draft, they are flying.

I was on L'Alpe d' Huez a few years back and was blown away by the leaders that day.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

In addition, it's easier to mentally black out your vision except for the rear tire in front of you...if it gets that hard.


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## swuzzlebubble (Aug 4, 2008)

It also gives a hint to the guy trying to make a move that you have him covered.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

These are all good points, but remember too that drafting saves energy even at relatively low speeds -- just not as much. For example, marathon runners are said to save 8% of their energy drafting, and they're doing what, 12 mph?


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

The smell of the sweat makes you go faster. 

I think Cervelo has/had on their site math about how aerodynamics come into play at lower speeds than previously assumed. If you're burning huge numbers of calories a savings of just a few percent means something at the end of a four hour stage.


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## SlowMo (Apr 18, 2006)

I guess I didn't really take into consideration the speed factor (draft) on an uphill. I know I'm no pro, but feel like I can climb decent (considering). If in a group ride going up hill, I've never noticed a feeling of less effort when I'm following someone. Again, I'm not a pro, so I realize I'm comparing apples to oranges on that one. 

The mental aspect of it makes alot of sense to me. I recently had that happen to me the other day and noticed the guy was on me the entire time on the climbs. It was a weekend warrior ride, so it was indifferent to me, but I'm guessing it was doing a lot for him at the time.


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## chiefinspector (Jul 4, 2007)

PG_Gary said:


> Why would either group be concerned with drafting? With the exception of a few specific races (Olympics, Commonwealth Games, World Championships), it's illegal for both groups to draft.


absolutely. but those racers seem to have an obsession with aerodynamics.


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## krishna (Jan 20, 2002)

*Interesting...*

When I'm climbing I much prefer to ride _alongside_ the first person to hit the hill. I feel like I can "play" more that way - I'll key off the rhythm and do little digs here and there to sniff out weaknesses.

I'm just a lowly cat 4 so take it for what its worth. Still - anyone else agree?

- K


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

One thing you learn if you live around mountains, the wind is almost always blowing. If there is headwind at all, its a pretty big difference to draft no matter what your speed is.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

gh1 said:


> One thing you learn if you live around mountains, the wind is almost always blowing. If there is headwind at all, its a pretty big difference to draft no matter what your speed is.


Yea, I forgot about that aspect. Especially true on lesser gradients when the win can really barrel down at you.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

chiefinspector said:


> time trial sites and triathlon sites talk about the benes of drafting, even at uphill professional speeds.


Then again Tri people also talk about all manner of crazy stuff. I still say those seat mounted water bottles are less aero than the conventional mounted ones.


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## SlowMo (Apr 18, 2006)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Then again Tri people also talk about all manner of crazy stuff. I still say those seat mounted water bottles are less aero than the conventional mounted ones.


It's funny you would mention that. I read they'd done a study on that and you're correct, the bottle mounted on the frame was less resistant than those on the seat. (That's just what I'd read, but what do I know.)


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## wheezer (Sep 21, 2004)

SlowMo said:


> It's funny you would mention that. I read they'd done a study on that and you're correct, the bottle mounted on the frame was less resistant than those on the seat. (That's just what I'd read, but what do I know.)



Isn't there a forum or two thousand for tris where you can take this conversation? the giro is on in case you haven't noticed.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Then again Tri people also talk about all manner of crazy stuff. I still say those seat mounted water bottles are less aero than the conventional mounted ones.


it's much more aero once they launched the bottles though


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

SlowMo said:


> It's funny you would mention that. I read they'd done a study on that and you're correct, the bottle mounted on the frame was less resistant than those on the seat. (That's just what I'd read, but what do I know.)


I read that, too, and that with frame mounted bottles you get less drag if you mount the bottle on the seat tube than the down tube.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

Drafting makes a big difference going up climbs in MOUNTAINS not so much hills or large bumps in the terrain. I recall an experience in the MOUNTAINS where I was going 12/13km/hr
into the wind on a steep long climb with about a 20km/hr head wind, and a couple of guys came past and I was going 15/16km/hr, the wind went, the resistance against it was instantly gone, so I had more speed for the same power. YEMV.


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## sbsbiker (Mar 29, 2008)

+1

If you've been a spectator at a pro race in the mountains, you'll know first hand how blazingly fast these guys are up these hills. Trust me, you have absolutely nothing to compare to - they are getting a draft, they are flying.

I was on L'Alpe d' Huez a few years back and was blown away by the leaders that day.

ditto this, the pros go fast up those mountains, you'll notice that runners can't keep up with the front of the pack, add in even a gentle breeze and the draft becomes considerable. Goto the tour or giro and you'll see why they are drafting.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*long steep climb*

good rec rider 10 mph
pro 16 mph
I remember a hill once that I could get up pretty well
I then saw some pros ride it at 1.5x my speed and having a conversation
I said to myself "that's why they are pros"


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> good rec rider 10 mph
> pro 16 mph
> I remember a hill once that I could get up pretty well
> I then saw some pros ride it at 1.5x my speed and having a conversation
> I said to myself "that's why they are pros"


Yup...there's a hill near Boulder called Lee Hill that's super steep...especially at the start. I'm lucky if I can maintain 6-7mph up it in my smallest gear. Indurain supposedly could big ring it at 20MPH.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Yup...there's a hill near Boulder called Lee Hill that's super steep...especially at the start. I'm lucky if I can maintain 6-7mph up it in my smallest gear. Indurain supposedly could big ring it at 20MPH.



I big-ringed it last year by mistake. I was wondering why it hurt so much. My team mates were impressed though. I have no intention of ever doing that again.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

California L33 said:


> I read that, too, and that with frame mounted bottles you get less drag if you mount the bottle on the seat tube than the down tube.


I wonder how may times you reach for a bottle on the frame that you start to lose milliseconds versus reaching behind the seat though?


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