# Why All The Crashes In The Tour



## dave1257 (Aug 3, 2002)

I have been watching the Tour and I am simply amazed at all the crashes. As previously commented on here Chris Horner's tour is over due to a nasty crash and I am wondering why there have been (and I have a feeling will be) so many crashes in this Tour?

These guys are supposedly pros and yet they are riding like a demo derby. Heck, when I was a Cat 4 my races were a lot safer with a lot fewer crashes so why can't these supposed "pros" do it?

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

dave1257 said:


> I have been watching the Tour and I am simply amazed at all the crashes. As previously commented on here Chris Horner's tour is over due to a nasty crash and I am wondering why there have been (and I have a feeling will be) so many crashes in this Tour?
> 
> These guys are supposedly pros and yet they are riding like a demo derby. Heck, when I was a Cat 4 my races were a lot safer with a lot fewer crashes so why can't these supposed "pros" do it?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


lets start with one: how often did you go 70km/h with your 200 closest racing buddies around you?


----------



## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

Have you never seen the tour before? This happens every year during first week. Time gaps are so small that everyone is edgy and wants to be up front. Reality is only a few can be up front. Only difference this year is it seems the crashes are more severe


----------



## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

Yes I'm sure the blistering speeds upwards of 18.5mph in your cat4 races compares really well to those of PROs.

I watch NASCAR and dont understand why they crash so often. I drive on the interstate all the time and never crash.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

dave1257 said:


> I have been watching the Tour and I am simply amazed at all the crashes. As previously commented on here Chris Horner's tour is over due to a nasty crash and I am wondering why there have been (and I have a feeling will be) so many crashes in this Tour?
> 
> These guys are supposedly pros and yet they are riding like a demo derby. Heck, when I was a Cat 4 my races were a lot safer with a lot fewer crashes so why can't these supposed "pros" do it?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.



You can't equate your cat 4 races to the tour the speed, comfort level, tactics numbers, courses .... are all different.

As for the implication "These guys are supposedly pros" that you could do it better - your just showing your ignorance next you will be telling us you can drive a moto better than Rossi cause you saw him crash.


----------



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

RT @GeraintThomas86: All this talk of rider safety... It comes down to us riders!! There are some right muppets in the peloton...


----------



## dave1257 (Aug 3, 2002)

32and3cross said:


> You can't equate your cat 4 races to the tour the speed, comfort level, tactics numbers, courses .... are all different.
> 
> As for the implication "These guys are supposedly pros" that you could do it better - your just showing your ignorance next you will be telling us you can drive a moto better than Rossi cause you saw him crash.


The point I was trying to make is that crashes are expected in Cat 4 races, that's why some of them are called "Crash Fests". The racers in the Tour are pros. Any guy that can adjust his seat or tighten his handlebars with an Allen wrench at 30 MPH I would expect to be able to do something as mundane as keeping the rubber side down.

As for the "moto" analogy you may want to rethink that one. I raced a Suzuki GSXR1100 in the unlimited road class for a number years and did quite well for myself.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

dave1257 said:


> The point I was trying to make is that crashes are expected in Cat 4 races, that's why some of them are called "Crash Fests". The racers in the Tour are pros. Any guy that can adjust his seat or tighten his handlebars with an Allen wrench at 30 MPH I would expect to be able to do something as mundane as keeping the rubber side down.
> 
> As for the "moto" analogy you may want to rethink that one. I raced a Suzuki GSXR1100 in the unlimited road class for a number years and did quite well for myself.


Hows that foot tasting?

You do nothing put prove you have no idea what your talking about as far as cycling. Then to top it off you go to say you raced motos in an unlimited class so I need to rethink my analogy right how many GP starts do you have? Because I was saying comparing yourself to a pro cyclist because you have raced a bike a few times is like comparing yourself to a MotoGP rider because you ride or raced a Moto and saw a GP rider make a mistake. Until you can get to that level and ride in those races you really can't say what you talking about and Cat 4 is pretty far from Pro level. You might want to rethink your knowlage base.


----------



## LauraM (Oct 27, 2010)

Seriously?!? The OP started a topic on why there are so many crashes going on and instead the topic turns to attacking the OP.


----------



## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

Riding on the road is easy. Riding in a group makes it harder. Racing in a group makes it more complicated. Racing with high stakes, pro speeds, giving it all, getting tired ... nothing is simple.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

LauraM said:


> Seriously?!? The OP started a topic on why there are so many crashes going on and instead the topic turns to attacking the OP.


well, perhaps the OP should not compare his cat 4 race experiences to the tour riders. 

Did he really suggest that cat 4 have superior bike handling skills compared to tour pros?


----------



## dave1257 (Aug 3, 2002)

32and3cross said:


> Hows that foot tasting?
> 
> You do nothing put prove you have no idea what your talking about as far as cycling. Then to top it off you go to say you raced motos in an unlimited class so I need to rethink my analogy right how many GP starts do you have? Because I was saying comparing yourself to a pro cyclist because you have raced a bike a few times is like comparing yourself to a MotoGP rider because you ride or raced a Moto and saw a GP rider make a mistake. Until you can get to that level and ride in those races you really can't say what you talking about and Cat 4 is pretty far from Pro level. You might want to rethink your knowlage base.


If you have let yourself get your undies into a twist because you have been shown up to be a no talent hack that is beyond my control. Now why don't you crawl back home with your tail between your legs, get out the Rocky Road ice cream, put on your big girl panties, and deal with it because we just don't want to hear from the likes of you. Nuff said!


----------



## dave1257 (Aug 3, 2002)

LauraM said:


> Seriously?!? The OP started a topic on why there are so many crashes going on and instead the topic turns to attacking the OP.


Thank you Laura. Sadly there are way too many people in this world who like to go shooting off their mouth before they gather all of the information or actually stop to comprehend the conversation and I see we have a number of them right here.


----------



## dave1257 (Aug 3, 2002)

55x11 said:


> well, perhaps the OP should not compare his cat 4 race experiences to the tour riders.
> 
> Did he really suggest that cat 4 have superior bike handling skills compared to tour pros?


That was NOT what I was implying at all. The point of my comment was that Cat 4 racers are novices and expected to crash and sometime crash a lot nor was I saying that Cat 4 racers have superior bike handling skills than the pros do.

Just to prove how totally ignorant you are for shooting off your mouth without having all of the information it is more correct to make the statement that "perhaps the OP should not compare his CAT 2 racing experiences to the tour riders".

If you had actually bothered to read my original post BEFORE you went running off your mouth you might have realized the point I was trying to make instead you showed yourself to be a total horses ass. If I were you I would call it a day before you make yourself look any worse than you already have and go home and pout for a while. Tomorrow might be a better day for you.


----------



## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

This thread is just full of the awesome


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

dave1257 said:


> That was NOT what I was implying at all. The point of my comment was that Cat 4 racers are novices and expected to crash and sometime crash a lot nor was I saying that Cat 4 racers have superior bike handling skills than the pros do.
> 
> Just to prove how totally ignorant you are for shooting off your mouth without having all of the information it is more correct to make the statement that "perhaps the OP should not compare his CAT 2 racing experiences to the tour riders".
> 
> If you had actually bothered to read my original post BEFORE you went running off your mouth you might have realized the point I was trying to make instead you showed yourself to be a total horses ass. If I were you I would call it a day before you make yourself look any worse than you already have and go home and pout for a while. Tomorrow might be a better day for you.


Please go back and read your post before accusing other people of being "ignorant", "running my mouth" and being "total horses ass". Then read it again. And again.

Quote:
These guys are supposedly pros and yet they are riding like a demo derby. Heck, when I was a Cat 4 my races were a lot safer with a lot fewer crashes so why can't these supposed "pros" do it?

The implication here is clear - you are a better bike handler than "supposed pros", or am I misinterpreting your post and this is that NOT what you meant? 

You can backpedal all you want now...


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

dave1257 said:


> If you have let yourself get your undies into a twist because you have been shown up to be a no talent hack that is beyond my control. Now why don't you crawl back home with your tail between your legs, get out the Rocky Road ice cream, put on your big girl panties, and deal with it because we just don't want to hear from the likes of you. Nuff said!


troll.


----------



## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

coreyb said:


> This thread is just full of the awesome


Lol. +1. But the thread's douchiness will get tiring soon. To the OP: I agree. Unusual amount of crashes this year. Every year there are a lot of crashes, but they're specially bad this year. Chris Horner was particularly sad for me. Super humble, and what a climber! He was superb in the tour of california.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

55x11 said:


> troll.


Not at all, just a better rider than anyone in the Tour, and a better motorcyclist than anyone in Superbike.
I'm in awe of his awesomeness.


----------



## ocean-ro (Nov 23, 2009)

If you`re a cat2 racer you should understand why so many crashes are happening.
And if you`re watching other races(cycling or moto) you`ll see these are part of the sport.
Sometimes you don`t have to ask strangers on the internet questions that you can answer yourself.
Peace


----------



## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

Slower pace equals more crashes, cat 5 or ProTour. Other than the last 20K Friday's stage looked to be at RAGBRAI speed and no surprise there were a lot of biff's. On Saturday the peloton was hauling a*s all stage getting to Super-Besse and surprise, they had a safer day.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Happens every year.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

dave1257 said:


> If you have let yourself get your undies into a twist because you have been shown up to be a no talent hack that is beyond my control. Now why don't you crawl back home with your tail between your legs, get out the Rocky Road ice cream, put on your big girl panties, and deal with it because we just don't want to hear from the likes of you. Nuff said!


Ha dude you so prove you A) don't know what you talking about B) your a troll. Keeping thinking your the best. Loser


----------



## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

I think after today's stage this is becoming an exceptional year for Tour carnage.


----------



## wibly wobly (Apr 23, 2009)

This is a pretty unusual year. I've never seen this many and this many bad crashes after watching pro bike races for years. There's always a good chunk until you hit the hills but, man, this is getting crazy.


----------



## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

For crying out loud - apparently a TV car knocked Flecha down hard and sent Hoogerland flying into a barbed wire fence! The vehicle was accelerating just b/4 the road was narrowed by a large tree. That driver blew it, hope he's banned from the Tour for life.

Both riders finished the stage, but Hoogerland, who has taken over the KOM lead must have gone straight to hospital, because I didn't see him in the presentations.

This is getting a bit crazy.


----------



## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

The lawyers are warming up for the rest day. Some serious pain should be meted out to those moronic drivers/motos who have been smacking into riders.


----------



## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

this is the miscellaneous crap that happens in the Pro Peloton, like it or not. A law suite is unlikely, regardless of how unfortunate and dangerous the result of that morons actions were. 
Hoogerland has become a new version of Vino, with countless attacks, nonstop aggression. I am sorry to see it happen to him.
LL Sanchez is a very classy rider, and its sad to see all the controversy take away from another win from a consumate pro.


----------



## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

There is just too much at stake for riders and teams in the TDF. Or, at least that's their perception, anyway. 

These guys are insane.


----------



## Oldguybikingnewb (Jan 25, 2011)

Not sure I've seen a tour have a motorcycle take a guys bike right out from under him and ride off with it, or a car turn into the leaders of a break away wrecking two of them. It is just plain bizarre.

And to the OP, not sure your cat 4 races have TV cars and motorcycles interfering much with your events. Add fans to it as well. That big crash on the first day a fan stepped out into the rider shooting him off like a bowling ball into the pin peloton. 

Don't know you but you said what you said as incorrectly as you said it, meaning or not, and had every right to be trolled for it.

my 2c.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Oldguybikingnewb said:


> Not sure I've seen a tour have a motorcycle take a guys bike right out from under him and ride off with it, or a car turn into the leaders of a break away wrecking two of them. It is just plain bizarre.
> 
> And to the OP, not sure your cat 4 races have TV cars and motorcycles interfering much with your events. Add fans to it as well. That big crash on the first day a fan stepped out into the rider shooting him off like a bowling ball into the pin peloton.
> 
> ...


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Crashing with the motos, the fans, the team cars, each other, overcooking a damp corner - none of it is new. 

Problem is, until now, this'd be a 'remember the year when...' discussion, not a 'remember kilometer 85 when...

Crazy year. Something's goofy when the defending champ has been off his bike 5 times in 9 stages - and I think that count is light.


----------



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

And to think a few years ago the riders were all protesting because the UCI made them start wearing helmets. Imagine the carnage we would be seeing if hey still wore hair nets and cycling caps.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*agreed in many ways*



AJL said:


> For crying out loud - apparently a TV car knocked Flecha down hard and sent Hoogerland flying into a barbed wire fence! The vehicle was accelerating just b/4 the road was narrowed by a large tree. That driver blew it, hope he's banned from the Tour for life.
> 
> Both riders finished the stage, but Hoogerland, who has taken over the KOM lead must have gone straight to hospital, because I didn't see him in the presentations.
> 
> This is getting a bit crazy.


and the TV Network should be banned for the rest of the race


----------



## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

spookyload said:


> And to think a few years ago the riders were all protesting because the UCI made them start wearing helmets. Imagine the carnage we would be seeing if hey still wore hair nets and cycling caps.


 I was going to mention that when reading about Horner's crash and how dingy he was afterwards. Imagine what his mellon might have looked like had he been helmetless.

Seems to me they have let too many 'irrelevant' obstacles roll along with the Tour riders...Each season they seem to get a bigger and bigger 'race caravan' with more motos and peripheral cars joining the bikes on the road as they race. Every stage lately, we see riders hanging on cars, drafting back to the pack, flipping off camera motos, drafting them during break attempts, etc. The Tour organization maybe should step back and take stock of who all gets to roll with the Peloton. Too many out there and everyone begins to take it too casually...

It IS a Bicycle race, not a road circus... I, for one, would be OK without a close-up of Hoogerland's bleeding calf, viewed from a big fat moto with a cameraman riding 6" from his bike...What the heck is a TV car doing sharing a single lane road with a bunch out in front of the main peloton anyhow? Stupid and greedy, that.


----------



## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

Ironic. Had my first serious spill today. Derailler bent, shifters scraped, very upset. Took the bike straight to the shop, where it was all promptly righted and wheels trued. Just cosmetic damage, luckily.

Ugh!!


----------



## cru_jones (Nov 29, 2009)

AJL said:


> For crying out loud - apparently a TV car knocked Flecha down hard and sent Hoogerland flying into a barbed wire fence! The vehicle was accelerating just b/4 the road was narrowed by a large tree. That driver blew it, hope he's banned from the Tour for life.
> 
> Both riders finished the stage, but Hoogerland, who has taken over the KOM lead must have gone straight to hospital, because I didn't see him in the presentations.
> 
> This is getting a bit crazy.


EEE--jected!


----------



## dave1257 (Aug 3, 2002)

gaspi101 said:


> Lol. +1. But the thread's douchiness will get tiring soon. To the OP: I agree. Unusual amount of crashes this year. Every year there are a lot of crashes, but they're specially bad this year. Chris Horner was particularly sad for me. Super humble, and what a climber! He was superb in the tour of california.


Thank you for your words of wisdom. This is exactly the point I was trying to make, just an observation with a few remarks of my own thrown which would have been fine had not jerks like 32and3cross and 55x11 not stuck their noses in and demonstrated to everyone in this Forum what complete and total loser they are. Unfortunately I am all too familiar with bozos like this. They are total posers (or "fred's" as we used to call them). They show up for rides on obscenely expensive bikes and are the first to drop out once the ride gets going. They have never won a race in their lives and have dropped out of every race they have ever entered with excuses like "I just didn't have the legs" or "I thought the team was supposed to ride for me today" or something else just as lame and sad. Back when I was racing guys like these two would get hooked or have a pump put through their front spokes every time they showed up for a ride.

Unfortunately the world is full of jerks like these two so I guess the best the rest of us can do is tolerate them but it sure would be nice if they weren't around . . .

Be safe out there everyone and remember to keep the rubber side down.


----------



## dave1257 (Aug 3, 2002)

AJL said:


> For crying out loud - apparently a TV car knocked Flecha down hard and sent Hoogerland flying into a barbed wire fence! The vehicle was accelerating just b/4 the road was narrowed by a large tree. That driver blew it, hope he's banned from the Tour for life.
> 
> Both riders finished the stage, but Hoogerland, who has taken over the KOM lead must have gone straight to hospital, because I didn't see him in the presentations.
> 
> This is getting a bit crazy.


Actually, the driver will probably be going to jail. What he did was felony hit and run. A motorist is required to stop and render any assistance possible at the scene of an accident and the TdF is no exception.

I have a buddy who is a UCI Commissar working in the United States and he has been emailing his colleagues at the TdF and that driver is in hiding right now but as soon as he is found or surrenders he is going straight to jail and he will not pass go or collect $200.00.

I just hope that this is the last of the horrific crashes. Be safe all.


----------



## revrnd (Nov 23, 2005)

As a casual rider that doesn't follow roading racing, I'm always amazed at the cars & bikes zipping thru & around the riders. Like someone commented in the EEE-jected lik, now the TdF racers have something in common w/ us mortals, dealing w/ morons in cars on the road.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

dave1257 said:


> Actually, the driver will probably be going to jail. What he did was felony hit and run. A motorist is required to stop and render any assistance possible at the scene of an accident and the TdF is no exception.
> 
> I have a buddy who is a UCI Commissar working in the United States and he has been emailing his colleagues at the TdF and that driver is in hiding right now but as soon as he is found or surrenders he is going straight to jail and he will not pass go or collect $200.00.
> 
> I just hope that this is the last of the horrific crashes. Be safe all.


I LOL'd reading this.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spookyload said:


> RT @GeraintThomas86: All this talk of rider safety... It comes down to us riders!! There are some right muppets in the peloton...


He has a point

The Tour has always been a crash fest. There are not more riders getting taken out by crashed this year but there are many GC contenders who have gone out of the the Tour thanks to a crash. There are a couple reasons for this

-GC riders do not race as many days as they used to. More racing makes you a better rider. Back in the day GC guys would race over 100 days a year, now some race less then 50. The racing at the Tour is crazy, Not a surprise that they don't feel comfortable. 

-These days small crashes cause big damage. Todays GC contenders are obsessed with w/kg (understandable). Non weight bearing exercise, sweating leaching calcium, plus calorie deficit leads to a perfect storm of bone fractures. Small crashes now result in multiple fractures


----------



## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

dave1257 said:


> I have a buddy who is a UCI Commissar working in the United States and he has been emailing his colleagues at the TdF and that driver is in hiding right now but as soon as he is found or surrenders he is going straight to jail and he will not pass go or collect $200.00.


Your 'buddy' is an idiot.


----------



## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

natedg200202 said:


> Your 'buddy' is an idiot.


Lot of flaming in this thread. Kinda sucks because this is a great place for news and good conversation. Unless you have something constructive or interesting to say, do us all a favor and move on to the next webpage. Thanks.


----------



## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

ocean-ro said:


> If you`re a cat2 racer you should understand why so many crashes are happening.
> And if you`re watching other races(cycling or moto) you`ll see these are part of the sport.
> Sometimes you don`t have to ask strangers on the internet questions that you can answer yourself.
> Peace


The commentators on Versus all are agreeing that this is an unusual crashfest, but noone has given a reason for why that is, and why this year should be more accident-prone than other years. I think the OP asks a valid question, one to which noone in here has tried to answer. Flame, sure, but then again, anyone can do that.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

There is little evidence that this years Tour is more dangerous then previous 

http://cyclocosm.com/2011/07/has-the-2011-tour-de-france-really-been-more-dangerous/

The key difference I see is the number of GC contenders who have crashed out. That's what happens when you barely race 50 days a year


----------



## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> There is little evidence that this years Tour is more dangerous then previous
> 
> http://cyclocosm.com/2011/07/has-the-2011-tour-de-france-really-been-more-dangerous/
> 
> The key difference I see is the number of GC contenders who have crashed out. That's what happens when you barely race 50 days a year


I think you could make that case, but Cosmo hasn't done it.

Go check out the number of starters in 1998, he has the numbers wrong. Take out the 9 abandons due to the Festina scandal and that year is right around average again. There goes his whole theory of the race becoming less dangerous.


----------



## Oso (Mar 9, 2007)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> There is little evidence that this years Tour is more dangerous then previous
> 
> The key difference I see is the number of GC contenders who have crashed out. That's what happens when you barely race 50 days a year


I don't know that I would link to that "study" as support to the thesis that this tour is less dangerous than previous. Aside from the use of registered riders compared with riders who completed stage 9, it doesn't sub-set the data into guys who retire with "sore-backs" versus severely injured - concussed (e.g. this year, Horner, Boonen) or fractured pelvi (Vino). 

It also seems, to me at least, that looking at the last 15 years is quite arbitrary - especially given the strides made in helmet safety and medical care in general in the last 5-10 years.

Here is hoping for a clean and exciting 2 more weeks of racing, and lets hope that no more idiot drivers hit the tour riders.


----------



## Oldguybikingnewb (Jan 25, 2011)

A lot of unusual stuff this year. Last years winner has been on his behind what... 4 times now? I can't recall LA going down more than 2 times in any TdF, not that I made a habit of watching that sort of thing.

A lot of strong riders have crashed out or been injured and are feeling it. 

AND we have only completed 9 stages. That's a bit more than a rider per stage, good thing there isn't going to be 190 stages this year.

It has been a crazy year for sure...


----------



## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

SilasCL said:


> I think you could make that case, but Cosmo hasn't done it.
> 
> Go check out the number of starters in 1998, he has the numbers wrong. Take out the 9 abandons due to the Festina scandal and that year is right around average again. There goes his whole theory of the race becoming less dangerous.


He seems to recognize that his math is meaningless
Obviously, it’s not a comprehensive study—early climbs and drug scandals have also played a role in thinning the pack, and not all crashes result in abandons​but for some reason still counts it as worthy
but I think it’s a decent ballpark metric.​
If you correct for his start number in 98, then back out doping scandals and early mountains and I think that average goes way down.


----------



## natrab (Jun 19, 2010)

This is only the second TdF I've followed, but I'm finding it a lot more painful to watch than last year. These riders have quickly become my heroes and seeing GC hopefuls crash out isn't fun to watch. This isn't NASCAR after all, I want to see a good race!


----------



## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

55x11 said:


> well, perhaps the OP should not compare his cat 4 race experiences to the tour riders.
> 
> Did he really suggest that cat 4 have superior bike handling skills compared to tour pros?


The entire reason I came into this forum was to talk about all the crashes this year.

Are the pros better bike handlers than Cat 4's? For sure!!! That is why I am sitting here wondering what the heck is going on.

As some background, I know the difference in bike handling skills between the different categories. I've raced from Cat 5 to Cat 3, and done some masters races. The masters races seem to be the smoothest, followed by the higher up cat races like P/1/2/3, 3/4, etc. The juniors are generally the ones that are the worst, and I remember those from my junior days back in the mid 80's. MABRA keeps stats on crashes. I reviewed the stats in 2007 and 2008 and they appear to support what I am saying.

Now, how about we get on subject here. Is there any specific reason for the wrecks this year, or is it just an abnormality. A freak statistical occurrence that probably will not be repeated in years to come. I am guessing it is the latter, and that we are just seeing a freakish tour this year, which makes it suck for me. It is bad enough to read about all the crashes on Facebook and on my local racing listserv, but to see it on TV now just makes me want to stay away from racing even more.


----------



## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

dave1257 said:


> Thank you Laura. Sadly there are way too many people in this world who like to go shooting off their mouth before they gather all of the information or actually stop to comprehend the conversation and I see we have a number of them right here.


Wait a sec, you asked an opinion of a group of strangers. You expect this same group to take your question seriously when you call the riders "supposedly pros"?

If'n you know the answer before you ask the question, why bother askin? Perhaps you care to enlighten this board of fools with your view of why there are so many crashes. You can leave out the media vehicles, as even us fools figured out the cause of those crashes 

Troll.


----------



## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> There is little evidence that this years Tour is more dangerous then previous
> 
> http://cyclocosm.com/2011/07/has-the-2011-tour-de-france-really-been-more-dangerous/


So looking at his biggest number year, 1998, if we correct the starting number and exclude the Festina riders as well as those excluded because of time limits the attrition rate drops from 15.15% to 5.29%. And that is granting those who either DNS or DNF for unlisted reasons as counting toward "dangerous".

It seems more like there is little evidence to support your claims about GC contenders not being able to cut it


----------



## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Just read a quote from Contador wherein he says he thinks the crashes are a result of them riding on narrower roads than usual at this stage of the tour and the rain. Seems reasonable to me. Sometimes, I wonder how these guys don't kill themselves on the roundabouts.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Personally - I'm mostly scared (or perhaps just more aware) of the seriousness of the crashes. Concussions, flying through fences and broken legs are not what I expected to see. I understand road rash and broken collar bones to be the norm, so seeing Horner not know where he is while finishing a stage is downright heart wrenching.


----------



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

There has always been crashes, it is a part of racing.

But this year is just crazy, contenders, motorcycles, cars, barbed wires, broken pelvis, femurs, concussion etc etc.

Looks more like a demolition derby on bikes.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*



dave1257 said:


> Thank you for your words of wisdom. This is exactly the point I was trying to make, just an observation with a few remarks of my own thrown which would have been fine had not jerks like 32and3cross and 55x11 not stuck their noses in and demonstrated to everyone in this Forum what complete and total loser they are. Unfortunately I am all too familiar with bozos like this. They are total posers (or "fred's" as we used to call them). They show up for rides on obscenely expensive bikes and are the first to drop out once the ride gets going. They have never won a race in their lives and have dropped out of every race they have ever entered with excuses like "I just didn't have the legs" or "I thought the team was supposed to ride for me today" or something else just as lame and sad. Back when I was racing guys like these two would get hooked or have a pump put through their front spokes every time they showed up for a ride.


Enjoy the posting vacation.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

coreyb said:


> So looking at his biggest number year, 1998, if we correct the starting number and exclude the Festina riders as well as those excluded because of time limits the attrition rate drops from 15.15% to 5.29%. And that is granting those who either DNS or DNF for unlisted reasons as counting toward "dangerous".
> 
> It seems more like there is little evidence to support your claims about GC contenders not being able to cut it


certainly 98 was effected by other forces but otherwise this year is similar to many other years. 97, 99, 01, 03, 04, 05, 10 are all within 1-2 percentage points. The perception is that this year the attrition rate is super high, it is not. The attrition rate of top GC riders this years does seem to be higher then normal giving the perception that it is higher overall.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

On the other hand:



> Carnage proving costly for Rabobank
> 
> A hectic first week of the Tour is starting to add up for Rabobank, with team mechanic Vinni Hendriks explaining that he will need to order more spare parts in order to make it to Paris.
> 
> "The bikes of Gesink, Barredo, Garate and Ten Dam are a total loss," Hendriks told Het Nieuwsblad with each bike costing around 8000 Euros. "It is my eighth Tour, and I’ve never experienced this kind of workload. We have three mechanics, and every day were are working late at night on the bikes to get ready for the next day. "


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-news-shorts-10


----------



## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

32and3cross said:


> Hows that foot tasting?
> 
> You do nothing put prove you have no idea what your talking about as far as cycling. Then to top it off you go to say you raced motos in an unlimited class so I need to rethink my analogy right how many GP starts do you have? Because I was saying comparing yourself to a pro cyclist because you have raced a bike a few times is like comparing yourself to a MotoGP rider because you ride or raced a Moto and saw a GP rider make a mistake. Until you can get to that level and ride in those races you really can't say what you talking about and Cat 4 is pretty far from Pro level. You might want to rethink your knowlage base.


stupid comparison. In every category, there are riders who just suck when it comes to riding/driving skills. Horsepower, mental and strategy are more important than riding skills in this sport. The pros make no exception, some just suck.

Remember Alex Zülle, he was just useless in a descent.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

T0mi said:


> stupid comparison. In every category, there are riders who just suck when it comes to riding/driving skills. Horsepower, mental and strategy are more important than riding skills in this sport. The pros make no exception, some just suck.
> 
> Remember Alex Zülle, he was just useless in a descent.


Sure you can always find various levels of skill in any group but you can hardly compare cat 4s as a group to Pros as a group which is why the OP basicly saying the 4s in his local race were better because they did not crash. 

BTW no pros just suck you can't and get to that level really in the US if you can't corner you are not going to make it through the crits to get to the top level in Europe you will either have to descend or ride on small back roads or corner in Kermises. For the record Zulle was nearly blind which is why he had such a hard time and he could descend other wise he would not have been with the group to make the front so many times - he wasn't the best but I doubt many Cat 4s could keep up with him.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Lol good for laugh this guy is, hows the foot? all the way up to your ankle now?



dave1257 said:


> Thank you for your words of wisdom. This is exactly the point I was trying to make, just an observation with a few remarks of my own thrown which would have been fine had not jerks like 32and3cross and 55x11 not stuck their noses in and demonstrated to everyone in this Forum what complete and total loser they are. Unfortunately I am all too familiar with bozos like this. They are total posers (or "fred's" as we used to call them). They show up for rides on obscenely expensive bikes and are the first to drop out once the ride gets going. They have never won a race in their lives and have dropped out of every race they have ever entered with excuses like "I just didn't have the legs" or "I thought the team was supposed to ride for me today" or something else just as lame and sad. Back when I was racing guys like these two would get hooked or have a pump put through their front spokes every time they showed up for a ride.
> 
> Unfortunately the world is full of jerks like these two so I guess the best the rest of us can do is tolerate them but it sure would be nice if they weren't around . . .
> 
> Be safe out there everyone and remember to keep the rubber side down.


----------



## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Not at all, just a better rider than anyone in the Tour, and a better motorcyclist than anyone in Superbike.
> I'm in awe of his awesomeness.


I sure hope that was a joke because I found that hilarious. 


Cat 4 super hero.


----------



## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> certainly 98 was effected by other forces but otherwise this year is similar to many other years. 97, 99, 01, 03, 04, 05, 10 are all within 1-2 percentage points. The perception is that this year the attrition rate is super high, it is not.


Next in the ranking is 2003, which had three mountain stages by stage 9. So it was affected by other forces as well(haven't checked specifics yet--check out comment 22 at your link for detail)

The point is that failing to adjust for these other forces just gives misleading data. Simply looking at attrition rate without considering _why_ the riders did not finish stage 9 doesn't tell us whether or not those other years were dangerous, which is the actual point under consideration. 

You are trying to extrapolate from bad data to make a point about how riding habits now make GC contenders more prone to crashing/injury. But your point isn't supported by facts


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

coreyb said:


> Next in the ranking is 2003, which had three mountain stages by stage 9. So it was affected by other forces as well(haven't checked specifics yet--check out comment 22 at your link for detail)
> 
> The point is that failing to adjust for these other forces just gives misleading data. Simply looking at attrition rate without considering _why_ the riders did not finish stage 9 doesn't tell us whether or not those other years were dangerous, which is the actual point under consideration.
> 
> You are trying to extrapolate from bad data to make a point about how riding habits now make GC contenders more prone to crashing/injury. But your point isn't supported by facts


The point that is not supported by facts is that this years Tour is dramatically more dangerous then other years Tours. It is not. 

Compare it to last year. At this point in the 2010 race the attrition rate was about the same as this year, despite last years first week being arguably more dangerous (Roubaix cobbles, Narrow Belgium roads, two mountain stages). Last year Frank Schleck was the main rider to be eliminated.This year you have major names out, or close to out, of the race

Boonen
VDB
Horner
Vino
Dave Z
Jani Brajkovic
Wiggins

You also have the two leaders of the KOM, Gesink and Hoagland with serious injuries and Contador could not even finish his training ride today. With many big names effect it give the appearance of a more extreme first week.

Of course there is no empirical evidence that racing less causes more crashes but most people who have raced can understand why a limited racing schedule may effect a riders ability to be comfortable in a insanely fast group.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

fabsroman said:


> The entire reason I came into this forum was to talk about all the crashes this year.
> 
> Are the pros better bike handlers than Cat 4's? For sure!!! That is why I am sitting here wondering what the heck is going on.
> 
> ...


almost 200 riders, all extremely fit, riding super-fast for very long periods of time in a tightly packed group on sometimes narrow and dangerous roads; the stakes are very high, especially in the first week when most riders are fresh; 

If you watch TdF coverage for any extended period of time, it is surprising they don't crash more often. 

There may be many reasons for crashes, but comparisons to cat 5 or cat 1, and comments about lack of bike handling skills are way, way off base in explaining the crashes, and shows total lack of perspective on account of OP. The speeds, the intensity, the importance of being at the front are off the chart for pro races, and especially TdF.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

55x11 said:


> comments about lack of bike handling skills are way, way off base in explaining the crashes, and shows total lack of perspective on account of OP. The speeds, the intensity, the importance of being at the front are off the chart for pro races, and especially TdF.


Ever watch Basso, Frank Schelck, Gesink, Menchov and any Colombian climber descend? 

The Tour brings together vast ranges in abilities. Lack of racing days is one part but far from the only cause. Armstrong was an excellent descender even though he seldom raced and Ulllrich was horrible


----------



## PinarelloRider (Jul 31, 2009)

Contador is correct. This is one of the most rural TdF in recent history. Much smaller roads combined with bad weather for more than half the stages has produced a lot of crashes.

VdeV's interview on Versus yesterday concerning the Vino and VdeB crashes stated that they peleton simply overcooked the turn and there were lot's of wet patches of road mixed with dry. Bad combination on a narrow road.


----------



## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Not at all, just a better rider than anyone in the Tour, and a better motorcyclist than anyone in Superbike.
> I'm in awe of his awesomeness.


No, no not lowly Superbike, but Moto GP......MOTOGP!!!! D)


I'm in awe too


----------



## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

LauraM said:


> Seriously?!? The OP started a topic on why there are so many crashes going on and instead the topic turns to attacking the OP.


welcome to RBR.:thumbsup:


----------



## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

Contador's comments

"It's complicated, but the main reason is meteorological. The weather conditions have played an important role in the crashes. The number of uphill finishes has put the sprinters in the middle of the GC riders who all have to be at the front as well to not lose time."

By weather I think he means wet roads but also the winds on some of the earlier stages creating more anxiety to be on the front

From same article

"Like other riders, Contador singled out the Garmin-Cervélo team in regard to the crash that cost Alexandre Vinokourov and Jurgen Van den Broeck their Tour de France. "They rode too fast and didn't perceive the danger," the Spaniard said."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-promises-battles-but-doesnt-say-where


----------



## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

Zuelle's problem was not his bad vision. He was just to stiff, rigid on his bike, like most bad descender. A good descender must be relaxed.

I've done pro level races 10 years ago and I can assure you some of them were just bad riders who had enough horsepower to offset that problem. Some of them have improved, I remember Sandy Casar was not a really good rider back in his amateur days, now he is quite good, some have not.


----------



## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

natrab said:


> This is only the second TdF I've followed, but I'm finding it a lot more painful to watch than last year. These riders have quickly become my heroes and seeing GC hopefuls crash out isn't fun to watch. This isn't NASCAR after all, I want to see a good race!


Can you imagine if we still had the no helmet rule? We might have had some deaths already. Which brings up a point: maybe they're riding with more reckless abandon because the helmet gives this sense of security? Don't know, but perhaps it's something to consider.


----------



## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

PinarelloRider said:


> Contador is correct. This is one of the most rural TdF in recent history. Much smaller roads combined with bad weather for more than half the stages has produced a lot of crashes.
> 
> VdeV's interview on Versus yesterday concerning the Vino and VdeB crashes stated that they peleton simply overcooked the turn and there were lot's of wet patches of road mixed with dry. Bad combination on a narrow road.


I have read/heard in interviews the same thing. Many of the GC guys feel these roads are too narrow. Pair that with teams cars, referees, press Motos and what seems to be more press cars than I remember seeing in the past, throw in first week jitters, wet roads and boom riders are hitting the ground. My opinion some of the crashes are related to teams like Garmin, HTC, Omega, BMC (somewhat) who are built for speed rather than teams like Saxo, Leopard (somewhat) who seem built for the mountains, working to keep tempo high in order to push the climbing teams to use their legs before the mountains. Think Disco teams pushing tempo to keep pressure on GC support riders, wearing them out isolating GC guys for Lance to wreck in the mountains.


----------



## austincrx (Oct 22, 2008)

About the helmet thing: that only really protects your head. If they wore full body armor and jousted, then it might be probable to say some of the crashes are on purpose. And I'm sure some of the riders do crash on purpose, not sure why anyone would want to, but that's probably happened once so far this tour (N. Sorenson perhaps? but can you even call it crashing himself). I don't think anyone's trying to go down, or that anyone thinks 'well, I do have a helmet on, that means I won't be hurt at all.'


----------



## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

austincrx said:


> About the helmet thing: that only really protects your head. If they wore full body armor and jousted, then it might be probable to say some of the crashes are on purpose. And I'm sure some of the riders do crash on purpose, not sure why anyone would want to, but that's probably happened once so far this tour (N. Sorenson perhaps? but can you even call it crashing himself). I don't think anyone's trying to go down, or that anyone thinks 'well, I do have a helmet on, that means I won't be hurt at all.'


Riding with a helmet gives you a sense of security, which permits you to take more risks you otherwise would not. That's what i meant.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

gaspi101 said:


> Riding with a helmet gives you a sense of security, which permits you to take more risks you otherwise would not. That's what i meant.


"I have 200grams of Styrofoam on my head, I'll be fine hitting the deck at 70km/h". You really think anything goes through that though process?


----------



## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

austincrx said:


> And I'm sure some of the riders do crash on purpose, not sure why anyone would want to, but that's probably happened once so far this tour (N. Sorenson perhaps? but can you even call it crashing himself). I don't think anyone's trying to go down, or that anyone thinks 'well, I do have a helmet on, that means I won't be hurt at all.'


OK, this maybe the stupidest post I’ve ever seen. 

First you're sure some riders crash on purpose, really?!? OK tell me when that happened at Clemson. Did you really go to college because your logic is at about a 6th grade level?

Next sentence, "I don't think anyone's trying to go down" perhaps you want to refer to your previous sentence as they're a bit conflicting.

You should perhaps read what you write because this just makes you look like an idiot.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

No one is crashing on purpose, their jobs depend on them being able to ride. A crash is not even a sure fire way to get out of racing (shoudl a rider decide they want out for some reason), if you can still ride you DS will put you back on a bike you get to chase back all banged up and if you quit when you can still ride you will quickly find yourself out of a job when your contract is up and word will get around that you are soft.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh, I can remember many races where I have thought "This would be a great time for a broken collarbone" I just have never qone through with it.


----------



## mgnsn35 (Jul 14, 2011)

*bike*

dont know


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Ever watch Basso, Frank Schelck, Gesink, Menchov and any Colombian climber descend?
> 
> The Tour brings together vast ranges in abilities. Lack of racing days is one part but far from the only cause. Armstrong was an excellent descender even though he seldom raced and Ulllrich was horrible


Most of the crashes so far were on flat roads. And Basso, F. Schleck, Gesink as well as colombians Uran Uran and Duque are still in the race and avoided major crashes. There may be some who are affected more often, but generally it's fairly random.

Basso and others do look less comfortable than others descending, but they descend in the pack just fine. They suck at descending the way Voeckler, Voigt or Gilbert suck at climbing, or the way Clippers suck at basketball - not as good as the best, but still much, much better than most non-pros (who are we kidding?).


----------

