# Spoke prep vs. linseed oil or others



## BLD25 (Jul 14, 2012)

Hello, I did a little searching on the topic and many of the threads were around 10 years old. Just curious of what people think nowadays.

I have built a few wheels and have mostly used synthetic motor oil on the threads which makes for really easy spoke turning. I have had a problem with spokes unwinding though.

I did rebuild one with linseed oil, and now three years later it is a pain in the butt to true, but I don't have a problem with spokes coming loose.

Any thoughts?


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I use Permatex Anti-seize: https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80078-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-Bottle/dp/B000FW7VGE. I will never build enough wheels in my lifetime to use up this one bottle. I brush it onto the spoke threads and works fine for me. 

I live near the FL Gulf Coast so only build my wheels with Stainless spokes and brass nipples (I have had aluminum nipples on Zipps corrode in just a few years....replaced with brass). No problem in adjusting as needed after sitting for several years.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Still Permatex Anti-Seize here too. The same can after 43+ years. It will out last me. I'm livin' proof that sufficiently tensioned, equalized and stress-relieved spokes don't come loose. I'm sure lots of others have the same success with just oil (and proper building techniques).


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

I've built 8 mountain bike wheels. Four with copper anti-seize, two with grease, two with linseed oil (not in that order). The anti-seize is what I'll be using on the rest of my wheel builds.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Mike: I've only been building my own wheels for 5 years or so. I'm 65, just ordered parts for another set last Thursday .......no way I'll outlive my can if you've been at it with yours for 43 years and I know you build a lot of wheels. I'll leave you mine in my Will.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cdhbrad said:


> Mike: I've only been building my own wheels for 5 years or so. I'm 65,


Oh you're just a young fella. I have you beat by 4 years. I built my first wheelset in 1962. Back then there was *zero* info on wheelbuilding. You just copied another wheel. How much easier the Newbs have it nowadays.



> ......no way I'll outlive my can if you've been at it with yours for 43 years and *I know you build a lot of wheels*. I'll leave you mine in my Will.


You just think I do. I only ever build for myself (and very occasionally family & friends). I have zero wish to turn my wheelbuilding hobby/passion into a job. I do maybe two sets per year - guys like November Dave will do that many in a morning. But then I can spend unlimited time on mine - probably 3-4 hours per wheel. What's the rush eh?


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Agreed on the "Hobby" part of it. I actually find it relaxing to do, once I have the initial lacing done and I don't screw it up. I'll fool with them for hours getting them "just right" before I take them off the stand. I don't know how wheelbuilders can do it so quickly, but they have to in order to make a living at it. 

I think the most fun is riding a new set for the first time. I know when I built my first set, I had this vision of one becoming a giant Taco the first time I stood up on it.....when that didn't happen, I thought "Wow, I'm not going to die, this is really fun." Now, I know a new set will be fine and the thought of it failing like that never crosses my mind. 

I've built wheels for riding friends too just to be able to build more wheels. I never ask for but one thing: They have to use Sapim CXrays or some similar bladed spoke as I will not mess around with the wind up on round spokes. No one has turned me down yet.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

cdhbrad said:


> Agreed on the "Hobby" part of it. I actually find it relaxing to do, once I have the initial lacing done and I don't screw it up. I'll fool with them for hours getting them "just right" before I take them off the stand. I don't know how wheelbuilders can do it so quickly, but they have to in order to make a living at it.
> 
> I think the most fun is riding a new set for the first time. I know when I built my first set, I had this vision of one becoming a giant Taco the first time I stood up on it.....when that didn't happen, I thought "Wow, I'm not going to die, this is really fun." Now, I know a new set will be fine and the thought of it failing like that never crosses my mind.
> 
> I've built wheels for riding friends too just to be able to build more wheels. I never ask for but one thing: *They have to use Sapim CXrays or some similar bladed spoke as I will not mess around with the wind up on round spokes*. No one has turned me down yet.


Funny...I've built at least 1200-1300 wheels and wind up has never been a problem w/ round spokes.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Funny...I've built at least 1200-1300 wheels and wind up has never been a problem w/ round spokes.


I've only build 200 or so, but likewise no issues with windup.

To the OP's question, I've been using whatever grease I have on hand and it has worked well for the past 50 or so years of wheel building. I've rebuilt wheels with 50K miles on them and the spokes turn as easily as they did when I built the wheel. Nothing wrong with spoke prep, anti-seize, etc. but grease works just fine. I think grease is more durable than oil simply because oil does indeed flow over time whereas grease stays in place.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I know how to deal with spoke windup, I have built wheels with round spokes. However, if someone wants a set of wheels, simply for the cost of the parts (I also pass on the discount I get from my parts source), they can spring for the Sapims as that is my preference. Like I said, no one has turned me down so they must be OK with my suggestion.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Regarding the lubricant: I use either grease, or Teflon pipe sealant (sometimes called pipe "dope" and found in the plumbing section of your hardware store). Neither will seize for the life of the wheel, and prevent nipple loosening.

Your problem with spoke wind up is your technique. You must grasp the spoke with the fingers of your free hand and stabilize the spoke as you turn the wrench with your other hand. It will help minimize spoke wind up. Also, you must turn the spoke slightly past your intended correction and then turn in the opposite direction just a smidge. To actually see and understand wind up and how much the finger squeeze and the over/under correction is needed, try placing a piece of tape on a spoke to look like a flag, and observe what happens, particularly as the spokes reach final tension. Obviously, you won't do this on all your spokes and on all your wheel builds, but you'll do it for educational purposes.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Peter: It is not a lack of technique, when I have built wheels with round spokes, I always hold the spoke with a pair of pliers with the jaws wrapped in tape. I also know about the Flag trick, I simply do not choose to work with round spokes.

I build bike wheels for FUN, I get paid to be a lawyer, and honestly do not want to spend my FREE time messing with spoke wind up. I only use Sapim CXray spokes on my personal wheels and, if someone doesn't want to go that route, they can find another builder and pay list for components and at least $100 for a build fee plus a shipping fee which quickly exceeds the difference in spoke costs.


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## roger-m (Jul 1, 2015)

cdhbrad said:


> Peter: It is not a lack of technique, when I have built wheels with round spokes, I always hold the spoke with a pair of pliers with the jaws wrapped in tape.


Doing it this way *is* lack of technique.



> I build bike wheels for FUN, I get paid to be a lawyer, and honestly do not want to spend my FREE time messing with spoke wind up.


Building with CX-Ray's takes me longer than round spokes.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

roger-m said:


> Doing it this way *is* lack of technique.


I built me a couple of sets with skinny Lasers and didn't have a problem with twist. Sure they twist but if the "two steps forward one step back" technique is used along with a good relievin' then no problems get left behind.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Roger: Actually, I was too cheap to buy this tool: https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=8806 and wanted to try that way of holding a round spoke. Similar to the tool recommended by Bill Shook, the founder of American Classis Wheels: https://amclassic.com/faq . Remind me again which Bicycle wheel company you founded so I can mention it to Bill the next time I see him up in San Antonio, FL on one of the Sunday rides and I tell him he's been doing it wrong all these years. I'm sure he will recognize your name.


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## roger-m (Jul 1, 2015)

cdhbrad said:


> Roger: Actually, I was too cheap to buy this tool: https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=8806 and wanted to try that way of holding a round spoke. Similar to the tool recommended by Bill Shook, the founder of American Classis Wheels: https://amclassic.com/faq . Remind me again which Bicycle wheel company you founded so I can mention it to Bill the next time I see him up in San Antonio, FL on one of the Sunday rides and I tell him he's been doing it wrong all these years. I'm sure he will recognize your name.


Steady on there, I was only advising that it's not a preferred technique, and if it makes you feel better then I'll add IMHO.

Please do ask Bill if he and his wheelbuilding team use one of these devices when building wheels. Or is it something advised for customers who have little experience of wheelbuilding, who want to true up their wheels, where such a tool may give some small benefit.

But if you build a lot of wheels then no way will you be using one of these spoke holding tools, IMHO


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

That twist resist doesn't work well at all. I tried it a long time ago. This however is a much better tool if you want to prevent spokes from turning. I only use it for finishing work once I've thoroughly stress relieved, tensioned, and trued a wheel. It does help if you just want a quarter turn or so. It costs a lot more than the twist resist, but if you are building up $1k plus wheels for people (especially helpful with low spoke counts) it's nice to bring the true in nice and even if you can.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Eric: Be careful about admitting to sometimes using a tool to prevent spoke wind up.......now everyone will question your "technique". Good to know though that someone who makes a living building wheels sometimes needs a little help too. 

If I used Round spokes I would look for one of those Roval tools.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Back to the lubricant: Anti-seize is good stuff but too messy for me. Gets on your fingers and then on anything you touch. I use regular motor oil or Spoke-Prep. Never had an issue with either.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

I've been using linseed oil for 10 years and find that it works very well. Just checked the first set of wheels that I built up and they're still in good shape and have needed minimal maintenance in that time, despite lots of abuse, potholes, road and cx races.

One thing that helps a lot to minimize windup and truing is to apply a file to the spoke holes to smooth edges and deburr. Apply a little linseed oil or lubricant to the spoke hole/nipple interface as well.

I've built several wheels with 1.5 mm DT revs and it often doubles the time, especially on lighter rims. Windup is a problem, need to stress relieve much more often and the spokes can come quite close to the yield stress point if you're not careful. I have the time so am happy to spend the extra effort for my own wheels, but if I'm building for others and getting paid in 6 packs then I'd insist on cx rays.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

If you do use anti-seize compound here's a great way to apply it. Clean application and uses only what you need, little waste.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

"but if I'm building for others and getting paid in 6 packs then I'd insist on cx rays." 

Ahhhhh, a man after my own heart......most of my friends know I like wine and I've done OK on my end.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ergott said:


> If you do use anti-seize compound here's a great way to apply it. Clean application and uses only what you need, little waste.


Eric, that exactly what I use and how I do it. That's why I don't find it too messy and my can lasts for decades. I do use latex gloves with A-Sieze though as some has got on my hands in the past and yes it is a bit messy.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

That Roval tool looks nice. I see nothing wrong with holding a spoke in place for fine tuning the true.

I use heavy oil on most nipples, but my Sapim brass nipples create much more friction and wind up so I use grease, Rock N Roll nipple cream or spoke prep on brass nipples. They don't loosen with the right combination of rim strength, spoke number, and spoke tension.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

cdhbrad said:


> Eric: Be careful about admitting to sometimes using a tool to prevent spoke wind up.......now everyone will question your "technique". Good to know though that someone who makes a living building wheels sometimes needs a little help too.
> 
> If I used Round spokes I would look for one of those Roval tools.


No kidding. I really don't get the logic of making things easier for one's self being wrong or lacking. What's the down side of using a tool?

I hope you don't use a lever to change tires too.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

In addition to the Antisieze on the spoke threads, I always put a "bed" of heavy wheel bearing grease in each spoke hole by using an inverted nipple on a spoke that I dunk in the grease and apply to the inside of the rim. Makes it a little easier to tension the spoke/nipple or, at least it seems too. Can't hurt to have that grease as a buffer between the two dissimilar metals either.


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## fronesis (Jan 22, 2014)

I'm a newbie wheel-builder, but I've built 8 sets in the past 4 years. These have all been low spoke-count wheels, and includes one set of disc wheels. Those 8 sets (for me, my wife, and a friend) have more than 20,000 total miles on them. 

I've used anti-seize on all of them and I've NEVER had a spoke lose tension. The first two sets I built required some tinkering, and in one case rebuilding (I built it to too low a tension because I mistook spoke windup for high tension – rookie mistake, easily corrected), but other than that, I've not had ANY issues whatsoever. 

The last 3 sets I built have over 10,000 miles on them and never even need to be trued.​


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## BLD25 (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

cdhbrad said:


> ... grease in each spoke hole by using an inverted nipple on a spoke that I dunk in the grease and apply to the inside of the rim.


might be better than my chopstick approach. (i stopped buying q-tips.)

i just use park grease for this (and spoke threads too).


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I use a tub of wheel bearing grease, really thick stuff, and it coats the bed of the rim where the nipple will ride really well using a spoke nipple to apply.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I have a needle tip similar to this on my greese gun. I put a bead around the shoulder of the nipple before putting it in the rim.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

My way is obviously "low-tech" compared to yours but I think we get to the same point. I sometimes have to wipe a little grease off some of the nipples once I have the initial lacing done, but it comes right off. I have used OMC Marine bearing grease too....it really stays put.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I grab whatever "waterproof" grease I can in tube form for the gun. Usually some sort of marine or axle grease.

I used to use inverted nipple dipped into tub and into rim. I found this a bit cleaner except when it comes time to change tubes. I still make a mess of it, especially when an air pocket gets in there.

Definitely agree that there should be grease between rim and nipple regardless how you get it in there.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I use Loctite 222 on the nds threads, any old oil elsewhere. 


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

This has been the best I've found for threads. My buddy uses it for Rod and Head bolts at Hendrick Motor sports so thats good enough for me.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Hendricks builds great motors, so must be good stuff. 

Does he work on Jimmie Johnson's bike too? ......lots of road cyclist in the Nascar garage these days. I've read that they do a long ride almost every Saturday wherever they are racing that weekend.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Back 40+ years ago, 'common knowledge' was that linseed oil was used because it lubricated when fresh, then turned sticky as it aged.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Back 40+ years ago, 'common knowledge' was that linseed oil was used because it lubricated when fresh, then turned sticky as it aged.


But why does the thread lube need to turn sticky?


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## Hellgate64 (Aug 7, 2017)

To hold the nipple in place. I just used spoke prep.

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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Mike T. said:


> But why does the thread lube need to turn sticky?


To prevent spokes from loosening; especially on old 36-40 spoke wheels which were almost always tensioned very lightly.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Hellgate64 said:


> To hold the nipple in place. I just used spoke prep.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Spoke prep has ammonia in it. It corroded my aluminum spoke nipples. I haven't tried linseed oil. How good is it as a threadlocker? Seems it would also protect against corrosion as well.


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