# First Road Bike .. Trek Emonda ALR5 vs Canyon Endurace AL 8.0



## Hassan Qandil (Nov 21, 2018)

<section id="block-system-main" class="block block-system clearfix"> Hello Guys
this is my first road bike and I currently have 2 options


1 Canyon Endurace AL 8.0 = 1300 USD
comes with Shimano Ultegra R8000


2 Trek Emonda ALR5 2019 = 1660 USD
comes with Shimano 105 R7000

Both specs

https://imgur.com/a/Lh7D4S0




I have no experience with road bikes
I want the bike to last me 5 years with no upgrades if possible
Currently live in Qatar and bike prices here are astronomical

shipping the Canyon will cost me about extra 400 USD
and the Trek about 300 USD
plus 5% tax


I appreciate your help
and if you have other opinions please share it
sorry for my weak English
Thank you very much




</section>


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

The Trek has lighter wheels, the Canyon has a better groupset. The Canyon might be more geared towards someone who has a nice set of wheels to throw on or someone who wants to buy a new set of wheels straight away or shortly after. This is how they gear bikes.

If you want a bike for now buy the Emonda. If you want a bike to upgrade for the future buy the Canyon. There you have it. Bike shops often offer you a trade off in wheels or groupsets depending on what you need to meet your needs. Bontrager products are as good as any other branded product from any other big box brand. Those wheels are lighter than the Askium and also newer.

You won't really tell the difference between 105 and Ultegra as a new rider today except for the fact that 105 looks less bling then Ultegra. Bontrager is just like Mavic and Zipp they make some good products they make some cheap products those wheels are surprisingly not bad are fairly light, strong and can be used with tubeless tyres.


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## Hassan Qandil (Nov 21, 2018)

Thank you *1500SLR*
Bontrager wheels : 1650 g
Mavic Aksium : 1840 g
but the whole bikes are very different
Trek Emonda ALR5 : 8.75 KG
Canyon Endurace AL 8.0 : 7.95 KG
do you think I should go with Trek if I am not going to upgrade the groupset


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

The Canyon looks like a better buy, but keep in mind the following. You can change out a wheelset or groupset. You can't change out the frame.

Which frame has the geometry that you like better? Which frame comes in the size that fits you better?


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Looks to me like Hassan isn't able to test ride either bike, nor has any idea what geometry is going to work best for him. There are some on-line sites that can give you some tips on what size frame to buy. 

Frankly, either bike looks OK for a first road bike. Difference between 105 and Ultegra is negligible. Even though I'm not fond of Trek bikes, I think I'd choose the Trek mainly because the wheels are better. Mavic Aksium wheels really are low end crap. You'll also never be able to tell the difference of 0.8 kg. 

It's never a good idea to buy a bike and then upgrade the group set. You're basically paying for the components twice. You'll never be able to tell the difference between 105 and Ultegra. Ultegra might look cooler, but mechanically, they're pretty much identical. Wheels are pretty much the most common upgraded item and you can spend a lot of money on them.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pmf said:


> Looks to me like Hassan isn't able to test ride either bike, nor has any idea what geometry is going to work best for him. There are some on-line sites that can give you some tips on what size frame to buy.
> 
> Frankly, either bike looks OK for a first road bike. Difference between 105 and Ultegra is negligible. Even though I'm not fond of Trek bikes, I think I'd choose the Trek mainly because the wheels are better. Mavic Aksium wheels really are low end crap. You'll also never be able to tell the difference of 0.8 kg.
> 
> It's never a good idea to buy a bike and then upgrade the group set. You're basically paying for the components twice. You'll never be able to tell the difference between 105 and Ultegra. Ultegra might look cooler, but mechanically, they're pretty much identical. Wheels are pretty much the most common upgraded item and you can spend a lot of money on them.


Hmmmm. So all else being equal, are the Bontrager wheels $360 better than the Mavic Aksium wheels? Sure, the Aksiums are entry level junk, but Bontrager wheels don't exactly have a great track record either.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Nevermind, wrong thread...


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

Lombard said:


> Hmmmm. So all else being equal, are the Bontrager wheels $360 better than the Mavic Aksium wheels? Sure, the Aksiums are entry level junk, but Bontrager wheels don't exactly have a great track record either.


Meh... People underrate Bontrager stuff... most of it is good to better than good. You'll never be able to tell less than a kilo in weight difference or even 2 among most riders. Those Aksiums have always been poor wheels even 8 years or so ago when they were new. 

The Canyon is a good bike you would put a newer set of wheels on (if it were me of course). Bike shops rely on people like me to upsell to or to offer a new frame to put a good set of wheels on you have already. I don't think you can go wrong either way. The Trek you could keep riding regardless... At this level and this age of bike the difference between 105 and Ultegra is just bling.... I like my bikes to say Ultegra (or Dura Ace) rather than 105. But 105 today is really solid and then Tiagra is good with Sora being middling to poor.

By now the Emonda has really tricked out geometry because they've been at it for almost 5 years now and with technology they've been working on with their Madone for the last 10 years. Not so with any other real big brands I guess except Dale which has its CAAD of course and Giant with its TCR they've been going at much longer.... If I were buying a bike sight unseen that's another thing.... You are buying a Giant or a Merida (in terms of manufacturing at this price) but you may as well get one that Trek has been working on for a long time.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Hmmmm. So all else being equal, are the Bontrager wheels $360 better than the Mavic Aksium wheels? Sure, the Aksiums are entry level junk, but Bontrager wheels don't exactly have a great track record either.


Sounds like the OP wants to buy the bike and ride it for 5 years without upgrading anything. Mavic Aksium wheels are cheap junk. Chances are they will need to be replaced which seems to be something the guy is trying to avoid. I know some folks who have had luck with Bontrager wheels. Wouldn't be my first choice, but when choices are limited ...


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## Hassan Qandil (Nov 21, 2018)

Looks from the comments that Mavic aksium wheels are really bad
is it bad in performance or it's low quality and will fail after a while
Thank you all for the helping comments


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

They're just particularly heavy and not very strong. They're known to go out of true after only a couple of rides.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

I like Trek bikes but on this one I would choose the Canyon because of the groupset and the weight. The Canyon is 1.5 lbs lighter, and with a decent set of wheels which can be had used for a few hundred dollars (about the price difference between the bikes), like RS81s, it will be more than 2lbs lighter, in the 17lb range, and that's getting fairly light for a bike in that price range. In my opinion that weight difference will certainly be noticeable unless you live where there it's pretty flat, few hills.


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

I don't disagree, never did if you want to get something that resembles a decent set of wheels which might cost you I dunno... Something up to $500... then you're onto a winner for a fairly light bike. You have to ask whether you want to spend the money and that was my point all along.

Its a pity that most bike shops are skimp on one thing and give you another so if its your initial outlay you get stuck one way or another... trade off a nicer groupset for some cheaper wheels on the presumption that you have nice wheels but if you don't have nice wheels then your stuffed like a turducken at this time of year and are going to be taken for an up sell profit by some guy in a shop.

A bit like me today, all I wanted was to ride my bike, went into a local bike shop for a tube, came out with a new tyre. I guess I needed it but I also could have gotten by, by not paying their prices, but they prey on the fact you want to ride your bike today and not tomorrow like most people with a puncture from riding over crap drivers leave on the road. Glass, nails, tacks, strapping, metal slithers, more glass...

The ethics issue comes in for me... but the world is tough, and brutal and people have to get by and as a sales guy you live with the devil on your shoulder "I did a good thing by selling that man a better idea" but at the same time I took $50 instead of $10. I'm gonna upsell this guy from the $1500 bracket to the $2000 bracket... or try to...

I have to stop thinking too much before I do my head in :mad2:


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Hassan Qandil said:


> Looks from the comments that Mavic aksium wheels are really bad
> is it bad in performance or it's low quality and will fail after a while
> Thank you all for the helping comments


They are a cheap wheel set with a really low spoke count. I believe the rear wheel is 20 spokes laced 2 cross. Wheels like that end up on a lot of $2000 bikes because they look OK, perform OK on a test ride, and don't fail for people who don't ride their bike very much. If you do ride a lot, you'll end up spending money going to your bike shop and getting them trued. Or learning to do it yourself. The cheap wheels allows the manufacturer to put Ultegra on the bike rather than 105 which appeals to a lot of customers. The industry is all about cutting corners. Tektro brakes, FSA mystery parts, manufacturer branded parts, cheap wheels ... even on pretty expensive bikes.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mavic wheels in general have a reputation for spoke hole cracks and hub bearing issues. If you are a heavier rider, I would avoid them like the plague. If you are a lighter rider, you may get a few thousand miles out of them.

It's true that sneaking cheap parts here and there is a way of cutting costs and making the bike a more attractive buy. One way bike makers do this is by offering a "105" or "Ultegra" groupset, but slipping in a cheaper crankset like an FSA or something like that. Most buyers will look at "105" or "Ultegra" plastered on the derailler and shifters, but totally overlook a cheap crappy crankset. I have known at least two people who have sheared crank arms off of FSA cranksets.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Mavic wheels in general have a reputation for spoke hole cracks and hub bearing issues. If you are a heavier rider, I would avoid them like the plague. If you are a lighter rider, you may get a few thousand miles out of them.
> 
> It's true that sneaking cheap parts here and there is a way of cutting costs and making the bike a more attractive buy. One way bike makers do this is by offering a "105" or "Ultegra" groupset, but slipping in a cheaper crankset like an FSA or something like that. Most buyers will look at "105" or "Ultegra" plastered on the derailler and shifters, but totally overlook a cheap crappy crankset. I have known at least two people who have sheared crank arms off of FSA cranksets.


Years ago, I bought what I believe to be the first pre-built wheel to hit the market -- the Mavic Helium. I later bought the first production year Ksyrium. I rode the latter for years with only one mishap -- a broken spoke that was easily repaired. Over the years, I've moved towards getting wheels custom built because I think they're a better product than what Mavic offers for the same money. 

I am constantly amazed at the crap parts bike manufacturers sneak onto fairly pricey bikes. For $3000, the cranks should be Ultegra, not FSA or Rotor or some other cheapo brand. For decades, Trek has made it's own wheels, but tried to brand them. First is was Matrix rims, then Rolf and now Bontrager. I don't know if they go out and buy these companies, merge with them, or just hire some cool looking German dude to pretend that he designed them (Rolf). For all I know, Specialized owns FSA.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pmf said:


> Years ago, I bought what I believe to be the first pre-built wheel to hit the market -- the Mavic Helium. I later bought the first production year Ksyrium. I rode the latter for years with only one mishap -- a broken spoke that was easily repaired. Over the years, I've moved towards getting wheels custom built because I think they're a better product than what Mavic offers for the same money.
> 
> I am constantly amazed at the crap parts bike manufacturers sneak onto fairly pricey bikes. For $3000, the cranks should be Ultegra, not FSA or Rotor or some other cheapo brand. For decades, Trek has made it's own wheels, but tried to brand them. First is was Matrix rims, then Rolf and now Bontrager. I don't know if they go out and buy these companies, merge with them, or just hire some cool looking German dude to pretend that he designed them (Rolf). For all I know, Specialized owns FSA.


Presumably older Mavic wheels were actually good. I know someone (anecdote, I know) who got 40K miles out of a pair of Ksyriums. So he went out and bought another pair of Ksyriums. Big mistake.

Apparently Bontrager wheels have improved. Trek/Bontrager really had egg in their faces with the paired spoke design of the early 2000s Bontrager Race. I had a bike with these. Rear wheel had multiple spoke hole cracks at 4K miles. Those wheels were infamous for that.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I rode those Ksyriums for the better part of a decade and probably put in 40k miles on them. Back when I bought them, there was only one version and it retailed for $800. As time went on and I acquired more bikes, I decided that for the money I could buy a custom wheel that was lighter and probably stronger made with easily found parts if I did have to repair them. Last fall, I decided to get rid of the nine sets of 9-speed wheels that were taking up room in the basement. Every bike we owned had 11-speed components, basically making them useless. I put an ad in Craigslist with pictures. The Ksyriums went in a day. I basically had to give away the Spinergy Spox wheels on ebay. The three pairs of Mavic Open 4 CD rims with Ultegra hubs at DT Swiss spokes (32 3-cross) I dumped for $100. A year earlier I sold two sets of Spinergy Rev-X wheels for several hundred dollars. There's a retro market for those. Probably with hipsters who ride single speed bike wearing jeans and showing some butt crack.


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

pmf said:


> Years ago, I bought what I believe to be the first pre-built wheel to hit the market -- the Mavic Helium. I later bought the first production year Ksyrium. I rode the latter for years with only one mishap -- a broken spoke that was easily repaired. Over the years, I've moved towards getting wheels custom built because I think they're a better product than what Mavic offers for the same money.
> 
> I am constantly amazed at the crap parts bike manufacturers sneak onto fairly pricey bikes. For $3000, the cranks should be Ultegra, not FSA or Rotor or some other cheapo brand. For decades, Trek has made it's own wheels, but tried to brand them. First is was Matrix rims, then Rolf and now Bontrager. I don't know if they go out and buy these companies, merge with them, or just hire some cool looking German dude to pretend that he designed them (Rolf). For all I know, Specialized owns FSA.


Trek bought Bontrager from Kurt Bontrager when Bontrager was doing cool things. Kurt is somewhat involved in the design of Bontrager parts now but most Bontrager parts are made in China or Taiwan by either Merida, or Giant and then some are made by Kalloy. Most parts that are made in China are actually made by Merida, Giant or Kalloy anyway... So unless it says made in Italy, France or the USA, its probably coming out of one of those three companies factories.

Bontrager isn't Bontrager anymore as like most things including Cannondale they stopped manufacturing in the USA in about 2008. But you can assume if its made in China it came out of a Merida, Giant or Kalloy factory if it came from a big box brand.

Even stuff made by Reparto Corse is generally made in China by one of these companies and assembled in Italy. 90% of road bikes are made by Giant or Merida until you get to the higher end Italian brands such as Pinarello and Cinelli that are still hand made in Italy and higher end Time and Look bikes that are hand made in France.

90% of what people ride on this forum comes out of the same factory as Giant or Merida, its just the laws of cost efficiency. Its been that way for the last 10 years for the big box brands at least. The last Trek's were high end Madones during the Team Discovery era and prior to that 5200s and up could be manufactured in the USA. The Last Cannondales were the high end CAAD8s that have made in the USA stickers on them...

Since then almost nothing except boutique brand bicycles are made in the USA and not much is made in Europe either. It simply costs to much. People get caught up in this brand vs. that brand and spending $10000+ on a mass manufactured bike such as an S-Works Venge that comes out of a box in China. 

This I don't understand when a double blind test of bikes in the same class would lead to a whole bunch of riders confused about which bike is which. But it won't stop people. Nothing really will stop a person from buying a $10000 bike because cycling is an elitist sport.

It doesn't matter. My 10 year old low-mid end Trek weighs the same as some people's $2000-3000 road bikes. You wont convince some people you're not getting a better deal by spending $5000 or $10000 though. If I put some ultra light weight wheels on my 1500 I could drop it down to weighing mid 7kgs or 16.5lbs. This I don't care about because its just pissing money into the wind and aero wheels don't mean anything unless you're riding off the front or off the back.

Most races are won by the guy who is 5"10 165lb and pushing over 400watts out so this is probably not you no matter which bike you're on.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

You sure about Pinarello bikes being made in Italy? I heard that they are all made in Taiwan by Giant. Most Colnagos are made by Giant, except the C-64 and the steel Master/Arabesque frames. Does Trek make any frames in the U.S. anymore? I recall they still made some of the higher end ones in Wisconsin not that long ago. 

Given that most bikes these days come out of a few big factories, does it really make sense to spend $10k on a Specialized S-Works? They're a dime a dozen around here. Must be good because look at all the pros that ride them. I don't think Specialized has ever owned a factory and actually manufactured anything. 

Call me a snob, but I refuse to join the herd. I've got five road bikes and none of them were manufactured by some big factory in Asia. I'm not saying that the Asian manufacturers make poor quality stuff ... because they don't. I just miss the days when making bikes was more of an artisanal industry.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

1500SLR,

Are you sure about what you said about all mainstream bikes and parts being made by three factories in China? Are you talking about mainland China (People's Republic of China) or Taiwan? You see most frames and components with either "Made in China" or "Made in Taiwan". Also, Shimano Dura-Ace components are still made in Japan.


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

Pretty much all parts and frames are either made in China or Taiwan... I spoke to my brother about this Ad nauseam the other day. He worked for one of the largest distributors here in Australia, and now works for one of the largest stores in Australia for a major big box brand. He used to get boxes upon boxes of flat pack bikes to put together, he puts together flat pack $10000+ bikes now at the store he works at.

I would trust his opinion that most bikes/parts are made by Kalloy, Merida, and Giant...


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

pmf said:


> Does Trek make any frames in the U.S. anymore? I recall they still made some of the higher end ones in Wisconsin not that long ago.


Trek's 700 series frames were made in Wisconsin a year ago from what I remember.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

1500SLR said:


> I would trust his opinion that most bikes/parts are made by Kalloy, Merida, and Giant...


This statement could be misleading. While there may be companies that make certain frames/parts, there could also be quite a difference in the specs and tooling for those products. So in the end, they aren't the exact same products.


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## 1500SLR (Sep 30, 2018)

Lombard said:


> This statement could be misleading. While there may be companies that make certain frames/parts, there could also be quite a difference in the specs and tooling for those products. So in the end, they aren't the exact same products.


Probably... to a point, what I'm highlighting is that a lot of people pend a lot of money on bikes, and sometimes needlessly.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

1500SLR said:


> Probably... to a point, what I'm highlighting is that a lot of people pend a lot of money on bikes, and sometimes needlessly.


Agreed! In general, more money generally gets you the same frame with more expensive components which are lighter. It's a law of diminishing returns like most other products with different price levels.

I own 7 bikes and have never spent more than $2,200 on a bike. Personally, I believe anything above $3,000 is nothing more than bling and ridiculously light weight, but that's just me.


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

I just bought a carbon fiber Canyon Endurace with Ultegra and a Cannondale CAAD12 with 105 this past year (the Cannondale is stored in California for rides during family visits). 

I think the aluminum Canyon is simply a better bike at a better price point. Ultegra shifting and braking is flawless and effortless. On my Cannondale, 105 shifting isn't as smooth and the rear brake action seems rough. Maybe the bikeshop that assembled the Cannondale didn't do a good job building the bike, but I took it in for adjustments after a few hundred miles and it still isn't nearly as smooth or precise as the Ultegra. Still, the CAAD with 105 is a good bike at a good price (1600 USD). Also wondering if the cables need to seat down before they become smoother. 

If you buy the Canyon and upgrade wheelsets in the future, you will be able to swap out wheelsets pretty easily and you can keep the Mavics as a back-up set of wheels. I keep stock wheels for riding in bad weather, but that may not be an issue in Qatar. If you buy the Trek and upgrade the groupset, not much you can do with those components besides sell them. 

I think you would have a nice, responsive bike with a good set of wheels on Canyon. If you upgrade the Trek's groupset, you're not going to get any performance boost in how the bike handles. 

I also think Canyon's build quality and customer support is better than the big brands. I would most likely hang onto the aluminum Canyon as a back-up bike if I decided to get a better bike in the future.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

jta said:


> I just bought a carbon fiber Canyon Endurace with Ultegra and a Cannondale CAAD12 with 105 this past year (the Cannondale is stored in California for rides during family visits).
> 
> I think the aluminum Canyon is simply a better bike at a better price point. Ultegra shifting and braking is flawless and effortless. On my Cannondale, 105 shifting isn't as smooth and the rear brake action seems rough. Maybe the bikeshop that assembled the Cannondale didn't do a good job building the bike, but I took it in for adjustments after a few hundred miles and it still isn't nearly as smooth or precise as the Ultegra. Still, the CAAD with 105 is a good bike at a good price (1600 USD). Also wondering if the cables need to seat down before they become smoother.
> 
> ...


I am guessing that your shifting in the 105 CAAD not being as smooth has most to do with cables. It may have come with the cheaper galvanized cables. Run your finger along one of the shifter cables. If you get a grey line, they are probably galvanized cables. Replacing them with a quality set of stainless steel cables could make a world of difference.


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## jta (Jun 27, 2012)

Lombard said:


> I am guessing that your shifting in the 105 CAAD not being as smooth has most to do with cables. It may have come with the cheaper galvanized cables. Run your finger along one of the shifter cables. If you get a grey line, they are probably galvanized cables. Replacing them with a quality set of stainless steel cables could make a world of difference.


Thanks for the advice. I thought it could be the routing, but cable quality sounds more likely. It makes sense, as don’t think difference in groupsets would be that pronounced.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

jta said:


> Thanks for the advice. I thought it could be the routing, but cable quality sounds more likely. It makes sense, as don’t think difference in groupsets would be that pronounced.


The only real difference between 105 and Ultegra is a little weight. I have both and they both shift flawlessly.

Cables are everything.


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