# Miche: Italian made junk (a new record: a wheelset which has lasted 1900 km)



## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

1900 km and the wear indicator of the Miche Syntium AXY rear road wheel is gone after 4 months. Miche and the supplier (Chicken CycleKit) don't care.

What have I learned thus far: Made in Italy means nothing.

If you want to splash out £250 on a set of road wheels with the aim of using it for 1900 km please buy Miche tat made in Italy.


Edit: I am using Kool Stop pads. I keep my bike in good nick (no embedded metal swarfs in brake pads, etc.) and clean it often.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

The Miche website specifies 7075-T6 alu for hubs and nipples, but curiously no specifics on the rim. Recycled soda cans?


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

jfaas said:


> The Miche website specifies 7075-T6 alu for hubs and nipples, but curiously no specifics on the rim. Recycled soda cans?


Typically I get at least 10 000 km out of a rim. I admit I ride in rain as well on scottish road but no reason for a rim to last just under 2000 km.

Anyway, the comedians in Italy are not even interested in to inspect the rim. If I were Miche I would do everything to learn from that failure. I asked them to relace the wheel but the Italian comedians and the UK supplier they don't care.

No one should wonder that no one pays full retail on any products these days because everyone knows warranty is never being honored. And if something fails, please, throw it away and buy a new one.


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

It is hard to tell from the "Quality" photo you posted, but it looks like there should be some sort of circular wear indicator on the rim. I the rim material is soft it and the indicator hole is small it might have just filled in with metal flakes making it look like the rim is shot. 

Have you taken a set of calipers to the front and rear rims to measure the wall thickness? is there a big difference?

It is weird that the rear wheel would go be fore the front. Do you drag your rear brake a lot?

What does the other side of the rim look like?

What does the front rim look like?

Dt swiss does something similar on some of their rims. Once you get a fair number of miles on them the indicators appear to be gone, but the rim is fine. Just take some time to find the mark and clean it out with a dental pick or sharpened spoke.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

QuattroCreep said:


> It is hard to tell from the "Quality" photo you posted, but it looks like there should be some sort of circular wear indicator on the rim. I the rim material is soft it and the indicator hole is small it might have just filled in with metal flakes making it look like the rim is shot.
> 
> Have you taken a set of calipers to the front and rear rims to measure the wall thickness? is there a big difference?
> 
> ...



1. There is no circular wear indicator. There was a drilled wee hole which served as indicator.

2. The method to check rim wall thickness with dental calipers as often suggested in newsgroups is pointless to be honest. There is no way to reach down to were the wear actually took place (I tried).
3. It was also my first thought that the hole was maybe not deep enough to begin with (some variation during production from wheel to wheel).
However, one can feel the concave shape when pressing the thumb against the rim.

I double checked again: I think the hole is gone.


Edit: This is the thing: the front rim still looks good and the hole is clearly visible and Miche knows that. This is more of a shamble that Miche doesn't take an interest in what may have caused that unusual uneven abrasion.

Edit2: My last wheelset was a Miche Connect and the front wheel its rim gave up after 10 000 km were at the same time the hole in the rear rim was ever so slightly visible. So you are right the front is more likely to wear out first.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

You get what you pay for. A set of wheels for 250 euros (which is what, $265)? That's about as cheap as they come. I agree, they should last longer than 4 months of low to moderate level riding, but maybe you should consider something else.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

pmf said:


> You get what you pay for. A set of wheels for 250 euros (which is what, $265)? That's about as cheap as they come. I agree, they should last longer than 4 months of low to moderate level riding, but maybe you should consider something else.



I paid £250 (=€330) on sale. Regular retail price about £300,- (approx €400).

What wheels at what price point would you suggest? I do 7400 km a year in the UK plus 1600 km over 5 weeks in August in the Alps (= 9000 km per year).

I want a wheelset which would last 2 seasons (>16000 km).

Do you really think there is a correlation between price and durability? I have seen people posting pictures of cracked Mavic Ksyrium Elite rims after 10 000 km.

Edit: Okay Miche is out (Miche and Chicken Cycles=poor quality and zero customer service no matter what). However, the Syntium wheelset and my former Miche Connect wheelseet used good spokes (Sapim spokes and nipples). The freewheel (pawls, etc.) are similar to the freewheel of my former Fulcrum Racing 5 wheelset. I am still not convinced there is a correlation between price and durability - just saying.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

dracula said:


> 2. The method to check rim wall thickness with dental calipers as often suggested in newsgroups is pointless to be honest. There is no way to reach down to were the wear actually took place (I tried).


You can do it with a throat micrometer/caliper or you could be a bit creative and do it with a generic caliper by adding a measurable item to the one or both sides of the item to be measured and subtracting said items from the total to get a value. IE take a nut that will fit inside the rim, measure from the backside of the nut to the face of the brake track, take the value and subtract out the thickness of the nut. You will have to take a few measurements and average things out.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dracula said:


> I paid £250 (=€330) on sale. Regular retail price about £300,- (approx €400).
> 
> What wheels at what price point would you suggest? I do 7400 km a year in the UK plus 1600 km over 5 weeks in August in the Alps (= 9000 km per year).
> 
> I want a wheelset which would last 2 seasons (>16000 km).


I'd first want to know why you buy 'wheels' when you wear out 'rims'. Why don't you just replace the rim? Or if it's hassle to do that with the wheel you choose get something else that some local shop or wheel builder can just replace quick and easy.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Or if it's hassle to do that with the wheel you choose get something else that some local shop or wheel builder can just replace quick and easy.


+1
Sounds like some custom wheels might be a good option for you. The price would be in your range, lots of options for hub/rim combos, and best of all good reusablity factor if one of the parts wears out. Durability aside, if those wheels were custom you'd be back on the road with a new rim for maybe 50 quid.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'd first want to know why you buy 'wheels' when you wear out 'rims'. Why don't you just replace the rim? Or if it's hassle to do that with the wheel you choose get something else that some local shop or wheel builder can just replace the time.



1. I asked the comedians from Miche and Chicken Cycles if they would re-lace the rear wheel. They don't bother.
2. Do you know where to source a Syntium rim from?

I wear automatic wrist watches and English made shoes. I appreciate quality and believe it or not English made shoes (and watches) can be serviced and resoled and they come back from Northampton as if new. Those shoes last many years even after many miles of walking (I do not have a car and walk a lot).

However, I do not see the point of hand built wheels and do not think the route via a wheelbuilder is so much cheaper. 1900 km is not normal for a rim.

And I haven't got the drive and time to start building my own wheels.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

dracula said:


> I wear automatic wrist watches and English made shoes. I appreciate quality and believe it or not English made shoes (and watches) can be serviced and resoled and they come back from Northampton as if new. Those shoes last many years even after many miles of walking (I do not have a car and walk a lot).
> 
> However, I do not see the point of hand built wheels and do not think the route via a wheelbuilder is so much cheaper. 1900 km is not normal for a rim.


Agreed, the wheels should last longer than 2000km but the company's response isn't very surprising. We live largely in a throw away culture, and especially at that price point, that's the business model most manufacturers are going to subscribe to. 

Personally I think hand built wheels buck this trend, and as for price, I prefer to think in terms of 'value' over 'cost'. My custom wheels I had built using high-quality components cost around $700. They currently have 12,000 miles on them but will easily go another 30,000 miles with a little periodic maintenance.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

dracula said:


> Do you really think there is a correlation between price and durability? I have seen people posting pictures of cracked Mavic Ksyrium Elite rims after 10 000 km.


I think Mavic Ksyriums are bad bang for the buck (euro). And this is coming from someone who has two sets of them (OK, the wife uses one set -- we have 6 bikes between us)). The ones I own have been incredibly durable, but I think for $800 you can do a lot better with custom wheels (as others have suggested). At this point in my cycling career, I've decided never to buy another pre-built wheel again. For the same price as a Mavic Ksyrium, you can get a lighter, more aero wheel w/o the manufacturer specific parts. The last set I had made was HED Belgium rims (I really like the wider rims), White Industries T1 hubs and Sapim cxray spokes (24F/28R). They were $750 delivered. I probably could have gone with Sapim Laser spokes and knocked $150 off the set, but I like those spokes. If anything goes wrong with them, I can replace the spokes, the hub, or the rim easily. The hubs are easy to overhaul. Plus, you can get custom wheels tweaked for your weight and riding style. Try that with a stoopid Ksyrium wheel. I see Mavic now has wheels out with proprietary tires and brake pads for $1800. Mavic claims the "system" could save your life screaming down mountain passes. What idiot would ever fall for that marketing bullshit. 

A good wheel should last tens of thousands of miles/kilometers. Its kind of like buying cheap tires. Cheap at the outset, but you get more flats, go through more tubes, and in the end, they aren't a good deal. Plus, there's that added frustration that can be hard to put a price on (dealing with a bunch of dorks from roadbikereview).


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

Hand built wheels are worth the investment. You don't need to go crazy with the parts list to get a great riding, long lasting set of hoops. 

Ultergra Hubs, Dt swiss competition spokes, Brass nipples, Dt Swiss RR44 rims, 32h 3x.
This is what I have been running for the last 4 years or so. Changed the rims out for the first time last year. Didn't have to there was still life in the first set of rims. I went from rr465 to r440. Both are dt swiss rims with the same ERD but the r440 is a wider rim and i wanted to see how it was. Since I build my own wheels it only cost me the price of 2 rims. I do about 10-12k km a year. 
Sub hubs for Campy or Miche, if running campy.

Take the Miche hubs you have get some rims and spokes. Reuse the nipples if they are brass get new nips if they are aluminum.

Up front cost will be a little more but when you wear a rim out you can have a new rim laced in easily by any good shop.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dracula said:


> 2. Do you know where to source a Syntium rim from?


No but given the whole purpose of your thread here is to rant about how those suck why would you use the same thing?

Do you understand that, with some exceptions, you can use any rim with a given hub (not that any rim would be a good choice). I don't know if your hub is one of those exceptions but I doubt it is.

that said if the rim is that bad the hub probably matches it's quality so I might not think long term around that hub.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> No but given the whole purpose of your thread here is to rant about how those suck why would you use the same thing?
> 
> Do you understand that, with some exceptions, you can use any rim with a given hub (not that any rim would be a good choice). I don't know if your hub is one of those exceptions but I doubt it is.
> 
> that said if the rim is that bad the hub probably matches it's quality so I might not think long term around that hub.


All you are saying is: buy a new rim with 24 holes and replace the current asymmetric shaped one? But wouldn't that also require new spokes? The old ones may or may not work though they claim to use Sapim spokes and Sapim alloy nipples (but I fear for the worst and imagine seized nipples throughout although I haven't check for it).

I was planing to use the front brakes only as long as possible (summer should be okay). Once the front is knackered I am gonna trash it.

And what I hate the most: the engineers within Miche show zero pride in their workmanship. Why don't they want to inspect the rim. No one can tell me that a true engineer would be happy with that kind of wear pattern.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

pmf said:


> ...The last set I had made was HED Belgium rims (I really like the wider rims), White Industries T1 hubs and Sapim cxray spokes (24F/28R). They were $750 delivered. I probably could have gone with Sapim Laser spokes and knocked $150 off the set, but I like those spokes. If anything goes wrong with them, I can replace the spokes, the hub, or the rim easily....


x2 for Belgiums and T-11s...however my 2nd set of Belgiums are on Campy Records. That said, if I had a Shimano/SRAM bike, I'd be all over Excel Sports' HED "Kermesse"...$509 for pair of Belgiums, on DT 14/15, and Ultegra hubs.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

colnagoG60 said:


> x2 for Belgiums and T-11s


No doubt an outstanding wheelset but I get the impression the OP is trying to pinch pennies so something like kinlin or H Plus Son rims and Novatec or 105 hubs is probably more his speed.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> No doubt an outstanding wheelset but I get the impression the OP is trying to pinch pennies so something like kinlin or H Plus Son rims and Novatec or 105 hubs is probably more his speed.


Really?

How much does one need to spend? I do not know about you but £300 are not peanuts; I think the average take home pay in the UK is £1500,-.

Come on you must be joking if someone tells me I have to spend >£500 for a wheelset.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

dracula said:


> Really?
> 
> How much does one need to spend? I do not know about you but £300 are not peanuts; I think the average take home pay in the UK is £1500,-.
> 
> Come on you must be joking if someone tells me I have to spend >£500 for a wheelset.


You may have misunderstood Jay. Yes, you can find good reliable wheels for less than 300 pounds like the custom spec that Jay is suggesting. They won't be the flashy White industry hubs and HED rims. The White Industry hubs alone will push you past 300 pounds.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

dracula said:


> Really?
> 
> How much does one need to spend? I do not know about you but £300 are not peanuts; I think the average take home pay in the UK is £1500,-.
> 
> Come on you must be joking if someone tells me I have to spend >£500 for a wheelset.


OK, first, the euro has tanked and is basically worth a dollar these days. So would $500 be a lot to spend on a wheel set? No. What about $750, which is about what 500 euros was worth a few months ago? No, but its bordering on about the most I'm willing to pay. And I assume that unlike the exchange rate, your salary doesn't adjust. I'd say yes, 500-700 euros isn't out of the question. Many folks would consider that to be cheap. You paid 250 for a set of wheels that lasted four months, and it sounds like you go through cheap wheels pretty fast (10k kilometers?). A nice custom set of wheels costing no more than 750 euros would probably outlast 3 sets of the discount wheels you buy now. So what's the better deal?

I routinely see guys commuting to work, carrying a backpack stuffed full of clothes on $2000 sets of carbon fiber wheels. I have no explanation why anyone needs a $2000+ set of wheels for commuting, but hey, whatever floats your boat.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

dracula said:


> Really?
> 
> How much does one need to spend? I do not know about you but £300 are not peanuts; I think the average take home pay in the UK is £1500,-.
> 
> Come on you must be joking if someone tells me I have to spend >£500 for a wheelset.


Value aside, you could buy a widely respected wheelset with H+Sons rims and ultegra hubs for around $400 which is in your price range.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dracula said:


> Really?
> 
> How much does one need to spend? I do not know about you but £300 are not peanuts; I think the average take home pay in the UK is £1500,-.
> 
> Come on you must be joking if someone tells me I have to spend >£500 for a wheelset.


Your response, in the context of being a response to what I said, makes no sense at all to me.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

pmf said:


> OK, first, the euro has tanked and is basically worth a dollar these days. So would $500 be a lot to spend on a wheel set? No. What about $750, which is about what 500 euros was worth a few months ago? No, but its bordering on about the most I'm willing to pay. And I assume that unlike the exchange rate, your salary doesn't adjust. I'd say yes, 500-700 euros isn't out of the question. Many folks would consider that to be cheap. You paid 250 for a set of wheels that lasted four months, and it sounds like you go through cheap wheels pretty fast (10k kilometers?). A nice custom set of wheels costing no more than 750 euros would probably outlast 3 sets of the discount wheels you buy now. So what's the better deal?
> 
> I routinely see guys commuting to work, carrying a backpack stuffed full of clothes on $2000 sets of carbon fiber wheels. I have no explanation why anyone needs a $2000+ set of wheels for commuting, but hey, whatever floats your boat.


I live in the UK and our currency is the British Pound (£250 approx €340).

I subscribe to the logic "Buy cheap, buy twice". However, I haven't seen it in the cycling industry that expensive translates to durability.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

dracula said:


> I live in the UK and our currency is the British Pound (£250 approx €340).
> 
> I subscribe to the logic "Buy cheap, buy twice". However, I haven't seen it in the cycling industry that expensive translates to durability.


With that philosophy maybe your best bet is to purchase some "take-off" wheels on ebay. New bikes like Cervelos usually come with heavy but durable wheels that owners are often quick to ditch for fancier wheels. Your still rolling the dice a bit doing this.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

cooskull said:


> With that philosophy maybe your best bet is to purchase some "take-off" wheels on ebay. New bikes like Cervelos usually come with heavy but durable wheels that owners are often quick to ditch for fancier wheels. Your still rolling the dice a bit doing this.



The Miche rim should have lasted longer this is for sure. 

But I'd like the mention that riding in rain and mud over farm land will kill wheels in no time. The Fulcrum Racing 5 wheelset lasted 10 000 km, though the freewheel pawl spring snapped in two (scary experience). Replacing it did't really solve the problem as the chain was still being pushed forward by the freewheel while pedalling (I think the freehub body was toast). And of course the Fulcrum rim was worn down to its bones as well.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dracula said:


> The Miche rim should have lasted longer this is for sure.


yeah, we got that already.


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## jfaas (Jan 31, 2014)

dracula said:


> The Miche rim should have lasted longer this is for sure.


Mavic Open Pro CD Clincher Rim - Grey Anodised | TotalCycling.com

Start with these. Ceramic coated brake surface should last longer with all the wet riding you do. Mate them to the appropriate hubs. If you run Shimano or SRAM, I recommend 105 level hubs or Tiagra if you aren't running 11 speed.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

jfaas said:


> Mavic Open Pro CD Clincher Rim - Grey Anodised | TotalCycling.com
> 
> Start with these. Ceramic coated brake surface should last longer with all the wet riding you do. Mate them to the appropriate hubs. If you run Shimano or SRAM, I recommend 105 level hubs or Tiagra if you aren't running 11 speed.


Thanks for that link I haven't considered ceramic yet.

I apologise to all owners of handbuilt wheels but I would like to ask: what are about factory wheels which come with ceramic coating. Do they exist?


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

dracula said:


> Thanks for that link I haven't considered ceramic yet.
> 
> I apologise to all owners of handbuilt wheels but I would like to ask: what are about factory wheels which come with ceramic coating. Do they exist?


I built a set of wheels with those rims years ago. The ceramic coating wears off pretty quick. Maybe in your next lifetime, you should consider a bike with disc brakes.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

That's because the CD (Couche Dure) is a hard anodized rim, not ceramic.

The actual OP Ceramic's braking surface is pretty much indestructible.
I have a set of early 2000s rims that is still immaculate.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

dracula said:


> View attachment 305243
> 
> 
> 1900 km and the wear indicator of the Miche Syntium AXY rear road wheel is gone after 4 months. Miche and the supplier (Chicken CycleKit) don't care.
> ...



Need to reply to my own post. Did a century ride today and thought about the following:

I cannot remember if I paid by debit or credit card. But lets assume I paid by credit card would it make sense to start the process of a chargeback with my credit card issuer under UK Consumer Protection law "Section 75".

Good idea? Bad idea? I know tear and wear but still.

Thanks


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> No doubt an outstanding wheelset but I get the impression the OP is trying to pinch pennies so something like kinlin or H Plus Son rims and Novatec or 105 hubs is probably more his speed.


Given 300GBP is ~450USD, the OP is within range of the Belgium/Ultegra build (aka "Kemesse"), and should be currently doable, for same build, but w/H+ Archetypes.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

dracula said:


> What wheels at what price point would you suggest? I do 7400 km a year in the UK plus 1600 km over 5 weeks in August in the Alps (= 9000 km per year).


Custom wheels using affordable commodity rims - Kinlin, Velocity, DT Swiss, H+Sons, etc. 

When you wear a rim out or destroy it in a crash release tension, tape a replacement on in three spots, lubricate sockets with grease or anti-seize, and transfer spokes on at a time taking the opportunity to re-lubricate the threads. Cut the tape, tension, and true normally.

The spokes should last hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

Either build them yourself or find a reputable one-man operation.

I rode the same wheel from 1997 through 2014 with a few exceptions to try out a PowerTap, wait until a more convenient time to replace a damaged rim, etc.

I expect to do the same with the PowerTap based wheelset I built for myself, and set aside a matching (32 hole HALO retro-reflective powder coated Velocity Fusion) rim so there's no delay sourcing a rim for the first replacement.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

I think you should not dismiss out of hand the possibility of simply replacing the rim. In most cases you can find a rim with ERD that matches what you have, then do a laceover. Given your bad experience with the rim Miche uses, I would look at Velocity, DT Swiss and Sun-Ringle for a possible replacement rim. Lay the new room over the old wheel in the same spoke hole and valve hole orientation, tape them together in 3 spots, then transfer the spokes one at a time. This will leave you with a new wheel that will require tensioning and truing.


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